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時因前向之原因致其辨識行為違法或以其辨識而行為之能力"},{"start":2696.771,"end":2707.362,"text":"選註減低者的從輕懲罰請兩項規定於因故意或過失致。行招任者、招致者不適用之。行政院提案第12條,辦理懲罰事件因事違紀行為情節之輕重。"},{"start":2712.687,"end":2738.777,"text":"並審著下列事項。一、行為之動機目的。二、行為時所受之刺激。三、行為之手段。四、行為之生活狀況。五、行為人之品性及制式程度。六、行為對領導統一或軍際行為所生之影響。七、行為人與被害人之關係。八、行為人違反義務之程度。九、行為所生之危險或損害。十、行為後之態度。"},{"start":2739.497,"end":2747.139,"text":"依本法規定重重或重新懲罰者應合與比例原則。委員徐巧芯等人提案第8條"},{"start":2753.363,"end":2768.593,"text":"辦理懲罰案件應視為失行為情節之輕重並審酌下列事項,一行為之動機目的,二行為所受之刺激,三行為之手段,四行為人之生活狀況,五行為人之品性及自視程度,六行為對統一"},{"start":2770.635,"end":2784.712,"text":"領導統一或軍事所生之影響其行為人與被害人之關係,把行為人違反義務之程度,就行為所生之危險或損害,時行為後製態度,先以軍人之違失行為有下列情形之一者,得減輕成"},{"start":2786.311,"end":2800.07,"text":"得減輕程度或免除其懲罰。一、請解輕微且情況顯可免訴。二、與未發掘前自首。為此行為涉嫌犯罪者應及檢附有關證據資料移送軍司法"},{"start":2802.595,"end":2821.925,"text":"檢查機關偵辦前向涉嫌犯罪者所屬部隊應同時進行行政調查,倘若調查必要相關事件應單位主官同意後的作副本存查。行政院提案第13條違禁行為之情節非屬重大且嫌可免免者的從輕或免除懲罰。"},{"start":2823.406,"end":2847.788,"text":"對於未經發掘之違紀行為主動向長官坦承並願受懲罰者的從輕懲罰。行政院提案第14條,懲罰處分送達後3個月內故意在為違紀行為者的從重懲罰。行政院提案第15條,依本法進行程序之人員對違紀行為人有利及不利之情形應一律注意,"},{"start":2848.709,"end":2864.424,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第30條除第4項修正內容為調查結果認為有施以撤職降級其大過或罰款懲罰之必要時應由主觀編接為上校以上之機關構部隊或學校召開評議會決議之認為證據不足或"},{"start":2869.249,"end":2895.3,"text":"無第15條各款違私行為者,因為不受懲罰之決議,其已遇第16條之懲罰,權失效者,因為免疫之決議,其予同現行法第30條條文。」行政院提案第16條,全者掌管任軍人之違紀行為情節重大,有影響調查及懲罰程序或勤務運作之餘者,全者機關於得與一定期間內先行停止其勤務。"},{"start":2896.46,"end":2914.047,"text":"全項停止勤務期間以六個月為限,全者機關任軍人已無停止勤務之必要時,得回復其勤務。第一項停止勤務之事由未消滅,而又繼續停止勤務之必要時,全項停止勤務期間得延長一次,並以六個月為限。"},{"start":2914.867,"end":2918.733,"text":"行政院提案第17條,停止勤務軍人與停止勤務期間的發給本分薪額之半數。停止勤務事由消滅後,軍人未受撤職或廢止起義之懲罰。"},{"start":2928.052,"end":2949.19,"text":"或未依法考核為不是服役現役而予以退伍者的申請回復勤務。除其他法律另有規定外,權責機關應許其回復勤務,並補發其停止勤務期間未發給資本奉奉額。停止勤務軍人死亡者的事情解補發停止勤務期間未發給資本奉奉薪額。"},{"start":2950.697,"end":2968.566,"text":"由依法德領受撫恤經之人具領之。行政院提案第二章,懲罰種類。行政院提案第18條,軍人之懲罰種類如下,一仍是懲罰撤職、廢職起義、降階、繼過及申戒。二、財產懲罰剝奪或減少退出給予、降級、罰薪及罰款。三、紀律懲罰悔過、減速、禁足、罰勤及罰債。"},{"start":2979.588,"end":2995.278,"text":"行政院提案第19條,軍人職懲罰依其身份區分如下,依軍官懲罰,撤職、降接、忌過、申戒、剝奪或減少退出及與降級,罰薪、罰款及減數。二、士官懲罰,撤職、降接、忌過、申戒、剝奪或減少退出及與降級,罰薪、罰款、悔過、減數及罰勤。三、士官懲罰,廢職起義、忌過、申戒、剝奪或減少退出及與降級,罰薪、罰款、悔過、"},{"start":3009.728,"end":3018.07,"text":"禁足、罰勤及罰占,群者長官因依違紀行為人受懲罰時,知身份合定懲罰,違紀行為人予受懲罰時,已喪失現役軍人身份者,其懲罰以撤職、降階、繼過、申屆、剝奪或減少退出給予及罰款為限。"},{"start":3029.033,"end":3045.483,"text":"行政委員徐巧芯等人提案第12條軍官懲罰之種類如下一、撤職二、降級三、繼過四、罰款五、申屆六、罰勤第13條士官懲罰之種類如下一、撤職二、降級三、繼過四、罰款五、申屆"},{"start":3046.644,"end":3063.801,"text":"六、罰刑。第14條,士兵懲罰之種類如下,一降級,二計過,三罰款,四申戒,五罰刑。行政院提案第20條,撤職軍官、士官,撤職其軍職,並於一定期間停止任用,其期間為一年以上、五年以下。"},{"start":3066.303,"end":3076.989,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案第17條撤制軍官、士官撤除其限職外,並於一定期間不得調任主管職務,其期間為一年以上、五年以下。"},{"start":3078.581,"end":3101.085,"text":"行政院提案第二十一條,廢止起義志願士兵廢止原核定起義處分,並於一定期間不得志願入營,其期間為一年以上五年以下。行政院提案第二十二條,降階軍官士官依其現任官階降一階換序,並於一年內不得調任主管職務,前項違紀行為人於受懲罰時已喪失現役軍人身份者,"},{"start":3101.645,"end":3126.703,"text":"以其退伍、解除召集或除役時之官階降階換序後,重新審定其退除給予。」委員徐巧芯等提案第18條刪除,行政院提案第23條,計過分計過與計大過。計過三次視為計大過一次,在一年內累計計大過三次者,軍官、士官當然撤職,志願士官當然廢止起義,並停止任願或不得志願錄影一年。"},{"start":3128.644,"end":3146.472,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案,第20條,季過分季過與季大過。季過三次,視為季大過一次。經公共相抵計算後,在一年內,累計季大過三次者,軍官、士官、策職、志願、士兵、備指援和,定其一致處分。行政院提案第24條,申誡以書面為之,申誡三次,視為季過一次。"},{"start":3147.712,"end":3172.223,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第23條,身屆與庶民為之。行政院提案第25條,過奪退出給予剝奪受懲罰人以依法審定之退出給予其以致領者並應追回之。減少退出給予減少受懲罰人以依法審定之退出給予20%至50%,其以致領者並應追回之。前兩項所定退出給予因案"},{"start":3173.103,"end":3197.584,"text":"最近一次退伍,解除召集或除役前服役年資計算,但受懲罰人本人繳,不知退府基金費用本息不在此限。」行政院提案第二十六條,降及一懲罰時限職之奉即降一級,其期間為三個月以上一年以下,其滿因重新奉即年資,為因徐巧芯等人提案第十九條,"},{"start":3198.226,"end":3218.284,"text":"降其一懲罰時限職之諷刑降一級其間為一個月以上一年以下其滿應重新諷刑年資。行政院提案第二十七條,罰薪扣除月值待遇總額10%至30%其期間為一個月以上六個月以下。委員徐巧芯等人提案第二十一條,罰款金額為新台幣五千元以上"},{"start":3218.804,"end":3240.619,"text":"處理法草案案。五、行政院提案第28條,罰款淨額為新台幣五千元以上、一百萬元以下,罰款得與人事或紀律懲罰並為懲罰。六、行政院提案第29條,悔過與其指定處所實施悔過教育,其期間為一日以上、十五日以下,執行期間不列記憲役期間及退伍。"},{"start":3241.232,"end":3260.051,"text":"修職年資、悔過之時事不得有禁錮、凌虐或其他非人道待於之行為。」第一項悔過時事處所教育之課程內容管理與考核管理人員之資格、權責劃分、不列記現役期間與年資之計算及其他相關事項之辦法由國防部定職委員徐巧芯等人提案第二十二條三署。"},{"start":3261.345,"end":3276.788,"text":"行政提案第30條,簡述於例假、休假或放假日時是自我反省,非奉權責長官核准不得外出營區期間為1日以上10日以下。委員徐巧芯等提案第24條,刪除。行政院提案第31條,禁足於例假"},{"start":3277.489,"end":3292.508,"text":"修假或放假日實施與軍事情務內部管理或實施紀律有關之必要教育非奉權責長官核准不得外出營區。其期間為1日以上10日以下。委員徐巧芯等提案第25條刪除。行政院提案第32條發請予立假"},{"start":3294.551,"end":3314.884,"text":"修假或放假日服刑與部隊或公益有關之勤務其期間為一日以上時日以下每日罰金時間以六小時為限。」為徐巧芯等人提案第26條,罰金與例假、修假或放假日服刑與部隊或公益有關之勤務僅舉法其期間為一日以上時日以下每日罰金時間以六小時為限。行政院提案第33條,罰債以例證"},{"start":3317.458,"end":3342.485,"text":"行之其時間以兩小時為限。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第27條三處,行政院提案第34條,懲戒案件或違紀事件於下列期間內,未細數懲戒法院或作成懲罰處分者懲戒權或懲罰權不得行使。一、重大人士懲罰及重大財產懲罰10年。二、欠款以外之人士及財產懲罰5年。三、悔過1年。"},{"start":3346.381,"end":3364.588,"text":"罰勤減訴及禁足三個月。」五、罰占一個月。委員徐巧芯等人提案第26條,懲罰權因下列期間之經過而消滅。一、撤職10年。二、降級7年。三、繼過5年。四、罰款3年。五、申戒2年。六、罰勤3個月。其餘第二項至第五項與現行法同。"},{"start":3366.158,"end":3382.316,"text":"行政院提案第35條簽條期間自為失行為或違紀行為中了時起算。行為屬不作為者自作為義務消滅時起算,但行為之結果發生在後者其結果發生時起算。懲罰因附審申訴再申訴行政訴訟或其他救濟程序經徹銷而須定為處分懲罰者。簽條期間自原懲罰處分被徹銷確定之日起起算。"},{"start":3387.262,"end":3397.981,"text":"行政院提案第36條,懲罰權行使時間因天災不可避免之事變或依法律規定不能開始或進行懲罰時,停止其進行。同一會期行為在刑事偵查或審判中,"},{"start":3399.178,"end":3424.484,"text":"及懲罰權不停止行使,但懲罰以其他法律關係是否成立為準據,而該法律關係在訴訟或行政救濟程序進行中者,於該法律關係確定前,權責長官得停止行使懲罰權,並通知違紀行為人,懲罰權行使期間因前兩項規定停止者自停止原因消滅或前項法律關係確定之次日起與停止前已經過之期間一併計算。"},{"start":3426.224,"end":3445.994,"text":"行政院提案第3章,調查程序,行政院提案第1節總則。行政院提案第37條,權責長官因權責舉發或其他情勢之所屬軍人設有違紀行為者,除法律另有規定外,應自行或指派該管軍官、士官或政風督察或與該等職務相當之人員於本章規定實施調查。"},{"start":3447.574,"end":3464.711,"text":"行政院提案第38條,調查人員因一本法或相關法令實施調查,不得以違背法令或其他不正方法取得證據,以違背法令或其他不正方法實施調查或取得之證據,不得作為認定違紀行為之基礎,但以違背法令或其他不正方法取得證據之情節輕微,"},{"start":3465.912,"end":3480.466,"text":"排除該證據之使用,明顯有違國防、軍事或公共利益者不在此限。」行政院提案第39條,軍人無正當理由不得規避或拒絕調查,軍人因他人設有違紀行為接受調查時不得偽造、變造、湮滅或隱匿。"},{"start":3483.548,"end":3511.774,"text":"與調查該違紀行為有關之證據資料或於詢問時為虛偽或不實陳述等妨礙調查之行為。行政提案第40條,國防部及其所屬服役機關之軍人涉有違紀行為且有下列情形之一者,得由國防部自行或指定所屬服役機關實施專案調查並作成專案調查報告。一、服役機關處所內人人死亡或重大傷害。二、演習或訓練事故。三、降官違紀行為。四、其他有專案調查必要。其他第一款情形之傷者"},{"start":3512.754,"end":3524.08,"text":"或傷亡者之配偶、二親等類親屬及已永久共同生活為目的同居一家之人,得以發生後6個月內,向國防申請前項專案調查。"},{"start":3526.109,"end":3542.345,"text":"行政提案第41條,軍人涉有危機行為且有下列情形之意者,確認藍光德不實施調查或終止調查。一、同意危機行為已受懲戒或懲罰,經調查為首懲罰者異同。二、危機行為具以懲罰之法令經廢止或停止使用。三、懲罰權已遇第34條規定之行使期間,"},{"start":3544.026,"end":3555.494,"text":"四、涉有違紀行為人之死亡。五、匿名舉發或未具體指出行為人或事實。六、舉發事實不明且舉發人經科法通知無正當理由拒絕到場陳述其舉發事實。七、舉發事實顯不構成違紀行為。"},{"start":3559.471,"end":3579.532,"text":"行政提案第二節,刑事偵查之競合。行政提案第42條,國防部及其所屬服役機關軍人與非戰時設有違紀行為同時設有犯罪嫌疑時,檢察官得指揮該軍人所屬服役機構、機關或其上級機關之法律專業人員,依刑事訴訟法及相關法規偵查之。"},{"start":3581.041,"end":3603.82,"text":"行政院提案第43條,法律專業人員於非暫時受檢察官指揮處理下列事務。一、實施服役機關處所內之搜索、扣押、勘驗或執行具體。二、詢問告訴人、告發人、犯罪嫌疑人、證人或鑑定人。三、相助檢察官執行法院組織法第60條所定之權責。法律專業人員處理前項第一款至第二款事務時,視為刑事訴訟法第230條第一項之司法。"},{"start":3606.585,"end":3617.732,"text":"檢查警察官 行政院提案第44條,法律專員人員依本節規定偵查這案件終結前,任由將偵查所得證據資料移送權責長官辦理懲罰。這標示應報其檢察官同意後行之。"},{"start":3620.683,"end":3646.849,"text":"行政院提案第45條,法律專業人員依本決規定處理偵查案件業務之注意事項及相關事項之辦法,由國防部定之。行政院提案第三節,調查方法行政院提案第46條,調查人員得以書面、言辭或其他適當方法,通知涉有危機行為之軍人或與事件有關人員到場接受詢問。前項通知應告知下列事項,依詢問之目的。"},{"start":3648.337,"end":3669.228,"text":"應到之日、時及處所。」三、得否委託他人到場是不到場所所生之效果。五、實施調查之權責或撫慰機關。六、調查人員之職稱及姓名。對非現役軍人之詢問應以通知書。宰名前下應告知事項,並由調查機關主管長官簽名後與到場"},{"start":3671.909,"end":3687.544,"text":"其日24小時前送達但經受詢問人同意或有急迫情形者不受到場其日24小時前送達之限制。非因自己之違紀行為而接受第一項詢問者得以詢問完畢後10日內"},{"start":3689.065,"end":3709.709,"text":"向調查機關請求日費及旅費,但無正當理由拒絕陳述者不在此限。情商費用之資及項目、基準及其他相關事項之辦法,由國防部定之。行政院提案第47條,調查人員詢問涉有違紀行為之軍人時,應告知所涉違紀行為及違反之法令,並給予陳述意見之機會,如有陳述"},{"start":3712.57,"end":3737.039,"text":"應令就其始末連續陳述,其陳述有歷之事實者應令其指出證明之方法,調查人員任前項軍人設有其他違製行為或犯罪嫌疑時應及時告知。行政院提案第48條,受詢問人得保持緘默,無需違背自己之意識而為陳述,並得委任律師為其代理人及請求調查有歷之證據。"},{"start":3738.559,"end":3759.958,"text":"未委任律師之受詢問人表示將委任時,應即停止詢問,但經受詢問人主動請求立即詢問,或等候律師逾4小時未到場者,得進行詢問。行政院提案第49條,詢問不得以強暴、脅迫、利誘、詐欺、疲勞詢問或其他不正方法為之。"},{"start":3761.5,"end":3766.928,"text":"詢問非經受詢問人同意,不得與業監行之。」前項所稱業監職午後10時至例日午前8時。"},{"start":3772.526,"end":3796.789,"text":"行政院提案第50條,詢問應做成記錄,向受詢問人朗讀或另起越南,並全程連續錄音,必要時應全程連續錄影。但有急迫情況且經記名記錄者不再此現,受詢問人為聽覺聲音語言功能障礙或語言不通者,應有通譯傳譯之必要時,並得以文字詢問或另以文字陳述。"},{"start":3797.91,"end":3817.271,"text":"行政院提案第51條,調查人員基於調查事實及證據之必要的向人民或團體請求提供與案情有關之文書、資料或其他物件。行政院提案第52條,調查人員得依職權或被調查人之請求將有關文書、資料或其他物件送請專業機關購"},{"start":3819.053,"end":3837.386,"text":"法人、團體或具有專門知識經驗者鑑定或送請業務主管機關提出意見,以輸入為鑑定者必要時,得通知鑑定人到場說明。行政院提案第53條,調查人員為了解、維繫事實真相,得就必要之物件或處所實施概念。"},{"start":3838.927,"end":3856.941,"text":"實施勘驗應通知設有違紀行為之軍人及有關人員到場,但不能通知者不在此限。勘驗應自作勘驗記錄並得錄音錄影,必要時應全程錄影。行政院提案第4章懲罰程序行政院提案第1節總則行政院提案第54條懲罰應由權責長官何定之懲罰權責除上將之懲罰與中將、少將"},{"start":3863.846,"end":3871.108,"text":"重要軍職之撤職及降階懲罰有服務機關、服役機關報請總統核定外其餘人員之平時暫時懲罰權責由國防部定之。行政院提案第55條。全職長官與懲罰程序終結前應將同意違紀行為人經調查屬實之違紀行為予以合一評價。"},{"start":3887.867,"end":3916.158,"text":"行政院提案第56條,調查結果有下列情形之一者,全職長官應不予懲罰或終止懲罰程序。一、有第8條第一項、第9條第一項及第11條第一項所定不受懲罰之事由。二、有第41條第一款至第4款規定情形之一。三、證據不足或不構成違紀行為。行政院提案第二節懲罰之諮詢及專案評議會。行政院提案第57條,"},{"start":3917.679,"end":3938.213,"text":"全職長官認為有失與重大懲罰之必要時,除第58條規定應召開專案評議會之情形外,應指定適當階級或專業人員五人至九人組成懲罰諮詢會,並得指定其中一人為主席,其成員任意性別比例不得少於總人數五分之二。"},{"start":3939.013,"end":3963.206,"text":"前向諮詢會應給予違紀行為人陳述及申辯之機會,並向全者長官提出具體建議。全者長官不同意前向建議,核定懲罰時應加註理由,但從輕懲罰者不再此現。行政院提案第58條,第40條所定,得實施專案調查之情形,應由國防部執行或指定所屬機關或學校召開專案評議。"},{"start":3965.947,"end":3984.053,"text":"評議會評議前項專案評議會應將上將邊階或相當層級之人員擔任召集人並邀集適當階級人員、專家學者或社會公正人士7人至11人組成。第一項專案評議會委員任意性別比例不得少於總人數五分之二"},{"start":3985.516,"end":4004.671,"text":"專家學者或社會公證人士人數不得少於總人數二分之一。第1項專案評議會之決議應以委員過半數之出席委員過半數之同意行之。專案評議會委員之領選、評議方式及其他相關事項之規則由國防部定之。行政院提案第59條專案評議會認為有應受懲罰人。"},{"start":4009.335,"end":4016,"text":"會有第4、10條第二項之申請人時,應通知應受懲罰人或申請人與指定日期及處所,陳述意見。"},{"start":4018.973,"end":4042.054,"text":"第40條第一項第一款鎖定情形未經同條第二項鎖定人員申請專案調查者專案評議會必要時的通知該等人員與指定日期及處所陳述意見該等人員與專案評議程序終結前請求陳述意見其有正當理由者應與陳述意見之機會前兩項通知到場人員與陳述意見其日前"},{"start":4042.955,"end":4053.58,"text":"得向專案評議會申請認欄抄寫、複印、攝影有關資料或請求調查證據。行政院提案第60條專案評議會認第40條第一項之專案調查報告有不備之處或有前條第三項調查證據請求時,應具體說明調查方法,令原調查機關補充調查,前項補充調查以一次為限,但發生新事實"},{"start":4069.207,"end":4077.264,"text":"或發現新證據者不在此限行政院提案第61條專案評議會評議期間所有出席、列席及記錄人員"},{"start":4080.321,"end":4092.009,"text":"對於會議討論事項、會議內容及決議均應嚴守祕密,未經專案評議會同意,不得對外公開。行政院提案第62條專案評議會應將評議結論作成專案報告,送交權者機關及有關機關,並複製第59條第一項及第二項通知到場人員。"},{"start":4100.074,"end":4110.49,"text":"全項報告應包括下列事項,並得載入對外公開之。一、事實之認定。二、調查之方法及經過。三、認定此理由是改善意見。"},{"start":4111.98,"end":4136.355,"text":"無因受懲罰之人懲罰種類及程度。全者長官應依前項第五款規定合定懲罰。行政院提案第63條。與國防部無隸屬關係之服役機關,得依其組織特性比照或自行定地辦理本屆專案評議會相關事項之辦法。行政院提案第三節懲罰之作成。行政院提案第64條懲罰處分依由全者機關順。"},{"start":4139.718,"end":4154.099,"text":"發布送達但上將之懲罰與中將、少將、重要君子之撤職及將接懲罰由服務機關發布送達。行政院提案第67條同意違紀行為依本法懲罰後"},{"start":4156.033,"end":4175.171,"text":"負疑送懲戒。經懲戒法院為懲戒處分或不受懲戒之判決確定者,原懲罰處分失其效力。因日第34條懲戒權行使期間而受免疫之判決者,原懲罰處分不失其效力。行政院提案第68條,人事懲罰及財產懲罰至懲罰發布之次日生效。"},{"start":4179.996,"end":4194.666,"text":"懲罰處分因程序瑕疵經救濟程序撤銷另於事份處分時,如基於同一事實在為相同內容之懲罰處分,該懲罰處分數及至原懲罰處分生效之日發生效力。行政院提案第69條,財產懲罰至處分日。"},{"start":4200.069,"end":4224.5,"text":"生肖之日起五年內未經執行者,不再執行。其餘五年期間屆滿前已開始執行者,仍得繼續執行。但至五年期間屆滿之日起已逾五年尚未執行終結者,不再執行。行政院提案第70條,剝奪或減少退儲給予之懲罰處分作成後,處分機關應即通知退儲給予。"},{"start":4226.141,"end":4251.262,"text":"合定機關重新審定退出給予並複製退出給予知己機關。行政院提案第71條受懲罰人依其經濟狀況不能一次玩納罰款時,選擇長官得酌情準與免息,分期繳納。罰款未玩納前,仍具現役軍人身份者得至其月資待遇總額中扣抵至多三分之一。請向經濟狀況認定基準。"},{"start":4253.203,"end":4275.408,"text":"分級起訴及扣抵等相關事項之辦法由國防部定之。行政院提案第72條,法管受懲罰人,經處分機關定相當期間吹告,藉其未履行者得以該懲罰處分為執行名義,以送行政執行。請向執行不受陸海空軍軍官事關服役條例第51條第三項規定之限制。"},{"start":4277.85,"end":4305.03,"text":"行政院提案第73條,紀律懲罰之執行期間欲有懷孕、罹患重大疾病或准、奉准請假時應停止執行,欲有作戰、演訓或救災等特殊事故時得停止執行,前項停止執行原因消滅與情況許可時給予執行。如數懲罰人停止執行期間表現良好,權責長官得釋請檢免除執行。委員徐巧芯等人提案第33條,"},{"start":4308.052,"end":4329.819,"text":"法刑之執行期間欲有申訴、作詐、懷孕、隱患重大疾病或奉准請假因暫緩執行、欲有演訓、救災等特殊事故時的暫緩執行、傾向暫緩執行、原因消滅與勤況許可時給予執行。如被懲罰人暫緩執行期間表現良好的事請檢輕重與群職長官核定,予以減輕之。"},{"start":4332.219,"end":4351.249,"text":"行政院提案第74條毀過簡述建築及罰刑懲罰之執行期間逢例假、休假或放假日則不予補假。委員徐巧芯等人提案第34條罰刑懲罰之執行期間逢例假、休假或放假日則不予補假。"},{"start":4352.475,"end":4380.922,"text":"行政院提案第75條回過懲罰執行前,全責機關應將回過執行之處所及起起時間以書面告知受懲罰人。五、委員徐巧芯等人提案第32條被懲罰人對懲罰處分如有不符,均得向上級申訴對撤職降級及罰款之處分,如有不符得依法提起訴願行政訴訟。本法有關文書之訟答,應依行政程序法規定辦理。"},{"start":4382.302,"end":4397.009,"text":"行政院提案第76條《受懲罰人對權責機關或服役機關有關懲罰之執行方法應遵守之程序或其他侵害利益之情事得與執行程序終結前,"},{"start":4399.37,"end":4417.208,"text":"處理法提起訴訟、再訴訟及行政訴訟,請向訴訟、再訴訟不停止執行,訴訟管轄機關任其理由者,應即停止執行,並撤銷或更正已為執行之行為,任其無理由者應於三日內加劇意見,以訟管轄之地方軍事法官。"},{"start":4418.109,"end":4434.463,"text":"兵役權益保障會與5日內決定之。」前項再申述決定得由地方軍事法院官兵權益保障會專任委員山仁和義行之。不適用軍人權益事件處理法第10條第一項規定。行政院提案第67條軍人之違紀行為與暫時戒嚴或動員實行階段。"},{"start":4444.431,"end":4472.745,"text":"經調查屬實且有即使懲罰之必要者全責長官得以延遲下達懲罰後竟為執行不適用第57條至第66條規定。行政院提案第78條本法施行細則由國防部定之。行政院提案第79條本法施行日期由行政院定之。現在宣讀委員之修正動議修正動議第一案"},{"start":4474.608,"end":4491.702,"text":"修正第四、五、六、十、十八、十九、二十五、二十八、七十、七十一、七十二條條文。修正第四條,修正第一項第六款,內容為六重大懲罰,則撤職廢職日,廢職起義降接"},{"start":4492.583,"end":4513.154,"text":"既大過、毀過或相當權額薪資5個月以上之財產懲罰,其與同行政院提案內容。五、修正第一項第四款違是其他違失行為違反已送立法院被查或國防部頒訂之法令外,其與同行政院提案。六、"},{"start":4517.051,"end":4536.133,"text":"修正第一項、第六、第七款之內容為,六、不得兼任違反社會善良風俗之職業或差事,其與其他違私行為違反以順立法院被查或國防部頒訂之法令,其與同行政院提案。第十條,修正第一項,自文自為。"},{"start":4537.174,"end":4539.996,"text":"軍人對權責長官職務範圍內下達之命令有服從之義務,如認為該命令違法應向權責長官表示意見,該管長官如認其命令並未違法,而以書面下達時軍人即應服從。"},{"start":4552.302,"end":4578.456,"text":"其因此所生之責任由該長官負之。前項情形該管長官非以書面下達命令者軍人得請求其以書面為之。該管長官拒絕時,視為撤回其命令。其予同行政院提案。第18條修正第一項第二款內容為二、財產懲罰降級罰薪及罰款。其予同行政院之提案內容。第19條"},{"start":4581.198,"end":4594.548,"text":"軍人之懲罰以其身份區分如下。一、軍官懲罰撤職、降階、繼過、升屆、降級、罰薪、罰款及減贖。二、士官懲罰撤職、降階、繼過、升屆、降級、罰薪、罰款、悔過、減贖及罰勤。三、士官懲罰廢職起義、繼過、升屆、降級、罰薪、罰款、悔過、禁足、罰勤及罰贊。全職長官"},{"start":4606.337,"end":4621.318,"text":"一、違紀行為受懲罰時之身份和定懲罰違紀行為人與受懲罰時已喪失現役軍人身份者,其懲罰以撤職、降階、繼過、申戒及罰款為限。第25條不同意徵定。第28條"},{"start":4624.541,"end":4648.712,"text":"刪除行政院提案之第二項其餘同行政院提案。第七十條不同意爭定。第七十一條受懲罰人依其經濟狀況不能一次玩納罰款時,權責長官得左傾捲羽、免席分期繳納、前項經濟狀況認定基準、分期期數等相關事項之辦法,由國防部定之。第七十二條罰款受懲罰人經處分機關"},{"start":4651.943,"end":4665.491,"text":"定相當期間吹告藉其未履行者,得以該處罰處分為執行名義,以送行政執行,刪除行政院提案之第二項。」提案人馬文君、黃仁、徐巧芯等委員。宣讀修正動議第二案修正第6條第二項修正"},{"start":4675.353,"end":4696.222,"text":"第二項修正內容為前項懲罰處分之標準有國防部定之,其與同行政院提案。第十九條征定第三項為第一項懲罰處分之標準有國防部定之,其與同行政院提案。提案人委員陳永康、鄭天才、馬文軍、黃仁等委員。現在宣讀軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":4705.342,"end":4718.832,"text":"行政院提案法律名稱《軍人權益事件處理法》,委員徐巧芯等20人提案,同行政院提案。行政院提案第一章章折,委員徐巧芯等人提案,同行政院提案。"},{"start":4723.396,"end":4738.319,"text":"行政院提案第一條為妥適、迅速、統合、處理軍人權益之爭議事項保障軍人權益、兼顧部隊紀律並鞏固戰力、特制定本法。委員徐巧芯等人提案第一條同行政院提案"},{"start":4738.88,"end":4760.652,"text":"行政院提案第二條,軍人與其所屬機關、各部隊、學校行政法人或人事權責機關以下檢偵權責機關,兼關於身份、公法上財產請求、獎懲、考積及其他行政處分或管理措施之爭議,除法令另有規定外,適用本法之規定。委員徐巧芯等提案同行政院提案。"},{"start":4765.293,"end":4790.492,"text":"行政院提案第3條軍人權益之救濟依本法所定附審申訴在申訴及行政程序行之軍人提起之申訴事件由各級主管官業務承辦單位或監察部門以下簡稱申訴管轄機關依本法處理附審及在申訴事件由地方軍事法院官兵權益保障會以下簡稱權保會依本法審議決定"},{"start":4792.313,"end":4806.395,"text":"第一審行政訴訟事件由高等軍事法院勤務法官以下簡稱勤務法庭依本法及行政訴訟法審理。委員徐巧芯等人提案第3條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第4條,"},{"start":4808.778,"end":4830.219,"text":"權責機關對依本法提起附審、申訴、再申訴或行政訴訟之人不得予以歧視或不公平待遇。」委員徐巧芯等提案第4條同行政院提案。行政院提案第5條申訴管轄機關、權保會及勤務法庭對依本法提起訴訟、再訴訟、附審或附審訴訟之人表示不符之範圍內,不得為。"},{"start":4832.481,"end":4850.369,"text":"不得為根部利益之辯根或處分。」五、委員徐巧芯等人提案。第五條,申訴管轄機關、全保會及全務法庭對依本法提取訴訟等同行政院提案的內容。行政院提案第六條,原行政處分或原管理措施之實行。"},{"start":4851.65,"end":4869.248,"text":"不因依本法所進行之各項程序而停止,原行政處分或原管理措施合法性顯有疑義者或其立即執行,將發生難以回復之損害且非為維護重大公共利益所必要者權保會申訴管理機關。"},{"start":4871.431,"end":4889.669,"text":"原處分機關或原措施機關與受處分或措施之人向勤務法庭提起行政訴訟前得以職權或依申請,就原行政處分或原管轄措施之全部或一部,停止執行。五、委員徐巧芯等提案同行政院提案。"},{"start":4891.209,"end":4918.952,"text":"行政院提案第7條前條第二項停止執行之原因消滅或有其他情勢變更之情形全保會申訴管轄機關、原處分機關或原措施機關得依職權或依申請撤銷停止執行。委員徐巧芯等人提案第7條同行政院提案行政院提案第二章地方軍事法院官兵權益保障會委員徐巧芯等人提案第二章張明同行政院提案"},{"start":4919.753,"end":4938.408,"text":"行政院提案第8條,地方軍事法院致專任及兼任官兵權益保障委員,以下簡稱權保委員若干人,組成權保會或其分會,分組審議附審及再申訴事件,專任權保委員,由地方軍事法院之國防"},{"start":4939.489,"end":4962.623,"text":"法務官認知,全任權保委員,由地方軍事法院擬聘社會公證人士或學者專家認知,任期三年,年選得連任一次。前項兼任權保委員之資格擬聘、解聘及其他相關事項之辦法由國防部定之。委員徐巧芯等人提案第8條第3項內容為,兼任權保委員應排除成為志願役"},{"start":4963.684,"end":4974.799,"text":"退役人員由地方軍事法院聯聘社會公證人士或學者專家認知,任期三年,年選得年任一次,其予同行政院提案。行政院提案第9條"},{"start":4976.823,"end":4992.409,"text":"附審及再申訴事件由原處分機關或原措施機關所在地之權保會管轄。權保會受理傾向事件認為全部或一部無管轄權者因依職權遺受有關。"},{"start":4993.749,"end":5022.675,"text":"由管轄權之權保會並通知副審人或再申訴人一人分別提起訴訟副審或再申訴事件或相牽連之訴訟副審或再申訴事件權保會得依職權與送最先受理或關係最確切之權保會合併審議並得合併決定。訴權保會與管轄權有爭議時由高等軍事法院指定之。委員徐巧芯等提案第9條同行政院提案"},{"start":5024.369,"end":5043.185,"text":"行政院提案第10條,權保會審議複審及再申訴事件,應由專任權保委員二人及兼任權保委員三人合議決定之。委員任意性別比例不得少於五分之二,前項決定應由權保委員全數出席委員過半數之統一行之。"},{"start":5044.806,"end":5062.451,"text":"審議附審及再申訴事件之規則由國防部定之。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第10條同行政院提案。行政院提案第11條全法委員或書記關於附審或再申訴所涉爭議事件有下列情形之一者應自行迴避。"},{"start":5063.371,"end":5083.199,"text":"一、與提起附審或再申訴之人有配偶是親等內血親、三親等內姻親、家長、家屬或曾有此關係。二、曾參與該事件之行政調查、行政處分管理措施或申訴程序。三、姓為或成為該事件當事人之代理人、輔佐人。四、與該事件成為證人、鑑定人"},{"start":5084.199,"end":5099.439,"text":"無與該事件有法律上利害關係,權保委員或書記官有前項鎖定情形之一,因執行迴避而不迴避,或有具體事實,主任其執行詞物,有偏頗之餘者,副審人或再申訴人,得被據書狀序名理由,向權保會申請迴避。"},{"start":5102.102,"end":5130.22,"text":"前向申請應舉其原因及事實並應與適當之市民、被申請迴避之人對該申請的提出意見書。全保委員被申請迴避者與全保會就該申請事件為准許或駁回之決定前應停止審議程序,但有急迫情形仍應為必要處理。前向決定被申請迴避之全保委員不得參與。全保委員或書記官有第一項鎖定情形之一步自行迴避。"},{"start":5131.161,"end":5141.73,"text":"而未經複審人或再審數人,申請迴避者,依由該權保會依職權,命請迴避。委員徐巧芯等人提案第11條同行政院提案。"},{"start":5143.345,"end":5166.763,"text":"行政院提案第12條,懲罰會所定所為之決定確定後,就其事件,有約束各關係機關構部隊、學校或行政法人之效力。委員徐巧芯等人提案第12條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第3章附審,第一節附審之提期。委員徐巧芯等人提案,均同行政院提案。"},{"start":5167.463,"end":5193.928,"text":"行政院提案第13條,軍人對於權責機關對其所為涉及軍人身份變更、公法上財產請求、獎成或考積事項之行政處分,認為違反或顯然不當,致損害其權利或法律上之利益者,除法令另有規定外,得以本法提起附審。前項事件,軍人因權責機關對其依法所為申請於法定期間內因為行政處分而不作為,"},{"start":5194.548,"end":5216.601,"text":"或予以駁回認為損害其權利或法律上之利益者的提起請求該機關,應為行政處分或特定內容行政處分之附審。」前項期間,法令未定名者這權責機關受理申請之日期為2個月內。委員徐巧芯等人提案第13條同行政院提案行政院提案第14條"},{"start":5222.233,"end":5237.271,"text":"非軍人基於其原軍人身份之請求權遭受侵害時得依前條規定提起附審。軍人與死亡者其遺族基於該軍人身份所身之公法上財產請求權遭受侵害時一同。"},{"start":5238.132,"end":5256.068,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案第14條同行政院提案。行政院提案第15條附審之提起因致行政處分送達之次日起30日內為之,但行政處分與艦艇航行期間送達者其30日期間至艦艇返。"},{"start":5257.469,"end":5278.734,"text":"凡抵國內港口之次日起算。」一、第13條第二項規定對群者機關之不作為提起附審,應於法定期間屆滿後時得提起,但至提起申請後已逾三年則不得提起。附審提起之日以原處分機關或群保會收受附審書之日起為準。"},{"start":5280.134,"end":5301.586,"text":"因原處分機關未告知有關有管轄權之權保會或告知錯誤,致副審人未向原處分機關或有管轄權之權保會以外之機關提起副審則,以該機關收受之日,是為提起副審之日。委員徐巧芯等提案第15條同行政院提案"},{"start":5304.676,"end":5324.263,"text":"行政院提案第16條提起副審應據副審書在明下列事項。一、副審人姓名、出生年月日、服役單位直接或職業駐居所或服役單位之駐地身份證明文件之後。二、由法定代理人或副審代理人則其姓名、出生年月日、職業"},{"start":5325.163,"end":5342.926,"text":"住居所或事務所身份證明文件字號。三、原處分機關是附審請求事項、無附審之事實及理由。六、收受或知悉行政處分之年月日。七、訴理附審之權保會。八、證據其為文書者應添具善本或隱本。"},{"start":5343.487,"end":5371.499,"text":"就有無其他以提起或進行中之副審或救濟事件,時提起副審之年月日,副審書應由副審人及法定代理人簽名蓋章,但委任副審代理者應由副審代理人簽名蓋章,提起副審應付原行政處分書影本。依第13條第二項規定對權責機關之不作為提起副審者第一項第三款第六款所列事項,證明因為行政處分之權責機關申請之年月日,"},{"start":5372.739,"end":5387.086,"text":"附原申請書之引本及受理申請機關收受證明。委員徐巧芯等人提案第16條同行政院提案。行政院提案第17條原處分機關之認定以施行行政處分時之名義為準,但上級機關對"},{"start":5388.527,"end":5408.594,"text":"法定職權所為行政處分交由下級機關執行者,以該上級機關為原處分機關,原處分機關調整或裁撤,應以承受其業務之機關為原處分機關,依第9條第一項規定,定其副審管轄。委員徐巧芯等提案第17條同行政院提案。行政院提案第18條"},{"start":5410.885,"end":5429.73,"text":"負審人應擅具負審書,僅有原處分機關向全保會提起負審。原處分機關對於前項負審應先行重新審查原行政處分,或不作為是否合法妥適,其任負審為有理由者,得自行撤銷或變更原行政處分。"},{"start":5431.058,"end":5452.392,"text":"作成行政處分或特定內容之行政處分並通知全保會。原處分機關不依附審人之請求撤銷或變更原行政處分、作成行政處分或特定內容之行政處分者,應知收到附審書之次日起20日內附具答辯書並將必要之關係文件送於全保會。原處分機關檢卷答辯時,應將前項答辯書抄送附審人。附審人向全保會提起附審者,"},{"start":5461.178,"end":5482.963,"text":"全保會應將附審書、銀本或副本順交原處分機關一、第二項至第四項規定辦理。行政院委員徐巧芯等人提案。第十八條同行政院提案。行政院提案第十九條原處分機關為於前條第三項期間內處理者全保會得依職權或依附審人之請求"},{"start":5483.843,"end":5509.182,"text":"通知原處分機關與15日內檢訊相關卷證資料,藉其為檢訊者權保會得盡為決定。委員徐巧芯等人提案第19條,同行政院提案第20條。副審人在第15條第1項鎖定期間向原處分機關或權保會為不符原行政處分之表示則,視為已在法定期間內提起副審。權保會應依第23條規定通知補正。"},{"start":5512.685,"end":5540.584,"text":"因原處分機關未告知有管轄權之權保會或告知錯誤,致副審人勿向原處分機關或有管轄權之權保會以外之機關作不符原行政處分之表示者,視為致使向有管轄權之權保會提起副審。前項收受之機關應於10日內將該事件移送有管轄權之權保會並通知副審人。委員徐巧芯等人提案第20條同行政院提案。"},{"start":5541.67,"end":5554.024,"text":"行政院提案第21條,副審提起後,於副審決定書送達前,副審得撤回之。副審經撤回後,不得再提起同一之副審。委員徐巧芯等人提案第21條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":5554.471,"end":5577.506,"text":"行政院提案第22條,副審提起後副審死亡者,由其基人或其他依法即受原行政處分所涉權利或法律上利益之人承受副審程序,但已無取得副審決定之法律上利益或依其性質不得承受者,不在此限。依前項規定,承受副審者因與事實發生之日起30日內向全保會"},{"start":5578.586,"end":5598.144,"text":"檢送、寄授權利之證明文件。依第一項規定,得承受副審者,未申明承受副審,全保會於之夕得承受事由時應通知其承受副審,經通知後未申明承受副審者,而命其續刑副審。委員徐巧芯等人提案。第二十二條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":5599.625,"end":5612.17,"text":"行政院提案第二三條,全法會認為附審書不合程序,不合法定程式,而其親信可補證者應通知附審人於20日內補證。委員徐巧芯等人提案第二三條,通行正義提案。行政院提案第二節,附審人"},{"start":5615.424,"end":5630.86,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案。第二節,同行政院提案。行政院提案第4條,能獨立以法律行為負義務者,有負審能力。無負審能力,人應由其法定代人代為負審行為。關於負審之法定代理,依民法之規定。委員徐巧芯等人"},{"start":5631.44,"end":5659.296,"text":"提案第24條同行政院提案。行政院提案第25條,二人以上得對於同意原因事實之行政處分共同提起複審,並得選定其中一人之三人為代表人。為選定代表人者,全保會得現期通知其選定,見其為選定者,全保會得依職權指定之。選定代表人應以最初為複審行為時,向全保會提出文書證明。代表人經選定或指定後,仍得更換或增檢之。立項代表人之選定及前項代表人之更"},{"start":5659.836,"end":5675.696,"text":"外貨增檢非經全體副審書面通知全保會不勝效力。」委員徐巧芯等提案第25條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第26條,代表人均選定或指定後,由其代表全體副審人為副審行為,但撤回副審。"},{"start":5677.819,"end":5694.66,"text":"經全體副審人書面同意不得為之。代表人有20以上者均得單獨代表共同副審人為副審行為。代表人之代表權不因其他共同副審人死亡、喪失副審能力或法定代理變更而消滅。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第26條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":5696.096,"end":5715.945,"text":"職院提案第27條,副審得委任、熟案法律或有專業知識之人為代理人。每一副審人委任者以不超過三人為限,並應於最初為副審代理行為時向全保會提出委任書。請向副審代理人、全保會認為不適當時得禁止之,並以書面通知副審人。"},{"start":5716.565,"end":5744.538,"text":"副省代理人之更換、增檢或解除,非以書面通知全保會不生效力。副省委任之解除,由副省代理人提出者自為解除意思表示之日起15日內,仍應維護副省人權利或法律上利益之必要行為。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第27條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第28條,副省代理人就其受委任之事件,得為一切副省行為,但撤回副省非受特別委任,不得為之。委員徐巧芯等人提案第28條,"},{"start":5746.343,"end":5752.719,"text":"同行政院提案。」行政院提案第29條,副省人或副省代人經全保會之許可。"},{"start":5754.471,"end":5782.409,"text":"行政提案第28條,副省代理人就其委任之事件,得為一切副省行為,但撤回副省非受特別委任不得為之。副省代理人有二人者,均得單獨代理副省人違反前項規定而為委任者,其副省代理人得單獨代理。副省代理人失實上之陳述,經到場之副省人本人即時撤銷或跟任者不勝效力。副省代理權不因副省人本人死亡、破產、喪失副省能力或法定代理變更而消滅。"},{"start":5783.55,"end":5797.163,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第28條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第29條,副省人或副省代理人經全保會之許可,得於其日協同輔佐人到場。全保會認為必要時,得亦得命副省人或副省代理人協同輔佐人到場。"},{"start":5797.796,"end":5820.827,"text":"前兩項輔佐人權保會認為不適當時得廢止其許可或禁止其序位輔佐。輔佐人到場所謂之陳述副審或副審代言部即時撤銷或更正者視為其所自為。委員徐巧芯等人提案第29條同行政院提案。行政院提案第3節其日期期間。委員徐巧芯等人提案第3節同行政院提案。"},{"start":5821.348,"end":5838.855,"text":"行政院提案第30條復審應天災執行軍事勤務或其他不應規則與己之事由,致持物歷史物條之復審期間者,與其原因消滅後10日內得以書面敘名由向全保會申請回復原狀,但持物復審期間已逾一年者不得為之,申請回復原狀應同時補刑期間內應為之復審行為。"},{"start":5842.376,"end":5869.065,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案第30條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第31條,原處分機關告知副審期間有錯誤時,應由該機關與書以通知更正之,並自通知送達之次日起,算法定期間。原處分機關未告知副審期間或告知錯誤會通知更正,至受處分人持誤者,如與處分書送達之次日起一年內提起副審,是為於副審期間內所為。"},{"start":5870.465,"end":5890.817,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第31條同行政院提案。行政院提案第32條,效力情形計算法定期間應扣除其在途期間。一、副審人向全保會提起副審,且不在全保會所在地駐居或服役。二、副審人經由原處分機關向全保會提起副審,且不在原處分機關所在地駐居或服役。三、副審人應第20條第二項,"},{"start":5892.362,"end":5921.21,"text":"行行物項前兩款以外之其他機關提起複審且不在該其他機關所在地住居或服役。前項扣除在途期間辦法由國防部定之。委員徐巧芯等提案第32條同行政院提案。行政院提案第33條期間之計算處法律另有規定外依行政程序法之規定。委員徐巧芯等人提案第33條同行政院提案。行政院提案第4節複審卷宗及文書送達。委員徐巧芯"},{"start":5921.735,"end":5942.818,"text":"等人提案第4節同行政院提案。行政院提案第34條附審事件之審議記錄、筆錄、決定書及其他相關文書資料全保會應指派書記官編為卷宗並以防保存之。附審人或附審代言人得向全保會申請閱覽、抄錄、引印或涉錄卷內文書或預納費用請求賦予善本、銀本、結本。"},{"start":5943.806,"end":5971.668,"text":"重置或複製品。全法會對傾向申請或請求,除有下列情形之意者不得拒絕。一、附審事件決定擬辦之文稿。二、附審事件決定之準備或審議文件。三、為第三人之爭當權益有保密之必要。四、其他依法律或繼國防軍事或公益有保密之必要。第二項,圈內文書之閱覽、抄錄、引印或涉入全法會應指定日時、處所。第二項,之收費標準由國防部定之。委員徐巧芯等"},{"start":5972.188,"end":5994.217,"text":"提案第34條同行政院提案。行政院提案第35條,副省文書送達應住民、副省人或其代表人、副省代理人、駐居所、事務所、營業所或服役單位之助力交付郵務機關、郵付機構以副省文書郵務送達證書發送。副省文書不能為前項送達時,得由全保會派員或駐托員處分機關。"},{"start":5995.377,"end":6019.107,"text":"該管警察機關或軍事機關送達,並由執行送達人作成送達證書。附審文書不能依前項。前兩項規定送達者,得將文書寄存於送達地之鄉鎮市公所、區公所或村裡辦公室,並作送達通知書兩份,一份連貼於因受送達人駐居所、事務所或營所門手,一份置於因受送達人之信箱或其他適當之處所以為送達,由遊務人員為送達者。"},{"start":6022.328,"end":6045.32,"text":"為送達人者,得將文書寄存於附近之有無機構。前項寄存送達自寄存之日起,經10日發生效力。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第35條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第36條,附審文書之送達處前條規定外依行政程序法相關規定辦理。委員徐巧芯等人提案第36條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":6045.874,"end":6074.94,"text":"行政院提案第5節附審審議。委員徐巧芯等人提案第5節同行政院提案。行政院提案第37條附審就書面審查決定之。權保會與必要時都通知附審或有關人員到達指定處所陳述意見並接受詢問。附審人請求陳述意見而有爭當理由者應與到達指定處所陳述意見之機會。委員徐巧芯等人提案第37條同行政院提案。行政院提案第38條權保會與必要時得以職權或附審人之申請。"},{"start":6075.6,"end":6103.389,"text":"通知副審人或其代表人、副審、代理人、輔佐人或及議員處分機關派員於指定處所,於指定期日到達指定處所,嚴此辯論。」為因徐巧芯等人提案第38條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第39條,嚴此辯論由資深之專任權保委員主持。程序如下。一、書記官陳述事件要旨。二、副審人或副審代理人就事件為事實上及法律上之陳述。"},{"start":6103.869,"end":6121.379,"text":"三、原處分機關就事件為事實上及法律上之陳述。四、有關機關或人員之陳述。五、副省代理人或原處分機關對他方之陳述或答辯為再答辯。六、權保會對副省人、副省代理人及原處分機關"},{"start":6122.319,"end":6147.91,"text":"或有關人員提出詢問,其副審人之最後陳述,前項言辭辯論未完備者得再為辯論。違規徐巧芯等人提案第39條同行政院提案。違規行政院提案第40條,全法會審議副審事件應指定書記官製作審議記錄附卷,全法委員與審議中所持與決議不同之意見的經期請求者應列入記錄,前項記錄得以錄音或錄影服務。"},{"start":6149.293,"end":6151.88,"text":"組織附審審議兼延遲辯論者應另行製作筆錄"},{"start":6153.407,"end":6179.219,"text":"編為前項紀錄之附件並准用民事訴訟法第212條至219條之規定。委員徐巧芯提案等人提案第40條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第41條,副審人得提出證據書類證物或其他證據方法,全保會限定於一定期間內提出者應於該期間內提出。委員徐巧芯等人提案第41條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第42條,"},{"start":6181.055,"end":6201.093,"text":"全保會得依職權或依附審之申請、命文書或其他物件之時有人提出該物件並得留置之。公務員或機關掌管之文書或其他物件,全保會得調閱之。前段情形,除有妨礙國家機密或法律令有規定外,該公務員或機關不得拒絕。委員徐巧芯等提案第42條同情政院提案。"},{"start":6202.233,"end":6226.66,"text":"行政提案第43條,全保會得依職權或主託有關機關構、學校、法人、團體或具專門知識經驗者就必要之物件證據實施檢驗、勘驗或鑑定禁令人由全保會指定之。全保會依前項規定實施勘驗時應將日、時、處、所通知副審及有關人員到場。立項所需費用由全保會負擔。全保會得依禁令人之請求欲行佐給之。"},{"start":6227.62,"end":6236.124,"text":"全保會一第一項檢驗、勘驗或鑑定之結果,非均賦予副審人表示意見之機會,不得採為對其不利之副審決定之基礎。全保會任務實施檢驗、勘驗或鑑定之必要,而副審人願自行負擔費用,請求一第一項規定實施檢驗、勘驗或鑑定時,全保會非有正當理由,不得拒絕。一前項規定檢驗、勘驗或鑑定所得結果,據為有利於副審之決定或裁判時,"},{"start":6254.592,"end":6262.96,"text":"副審得於副審或行政訴訟確定後30日內,請求全保會償還必要之費用。」五、委員徐巧芯等提案第43條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":6264.147,"end":6288.34,"text":"行政院提案第44條,鑑定人依前條所為之鑑定,應據鑑定書陳述意見,必要時全保會的請其到達指定處所說明。鑑定人有數人時得共同陳述意見,但意見不同時,全保會應使其分別陳述意見。鑑定所需資料在原處分機關或全保會者,全保會應告知鑑定人准其利用,但其利用之範圍及方法,"},{"start":6289.431,"end":6311.486,"text":"得憲之知、鑒定人應行鑒定得請求全保會調查證據。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第44條,同行政院提案。行政院提案第45條,副審對全保會於副審程序進行中所謂之程序上處理不符則,應併同副審決定提起行政訴訟。委員徐巧芯等人提案第45條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":6313.519,"end":6328.217,"text":"行政院提案第6節,副審決定。委員徐巧芯等提案第6節,副審決定。行政院提案第46條,副審事件有下列各款行刑之一者,因為不受理決定,依副審書不合法定程式,"},{"start":6329.378,"end":6353.351,"text":"不能補正或經通知限其補正藉其未補正。」二、提起副審欲法定期限。三、副審人無副審能力而未由法定代理人代為副審行為經通知期限補正藉其未補正,是副審人不適格,無原行政處分已不存在,已執行而無回復原狀,可能且提起副審無實意或行政處分因其他事由而消滅,"},{"start":6354.451,"end":6381.735,"text":"第13條第2項提起之副審應作為之權者機關以為行政處分。七、對已決定或已撤回之副審事件重新提起副審。八、對不屬副審救濟範圍內之事項提起副審。九、提起副審不被其他法定要件。副審人對前項第6款之行政處分不負責,應另提起副審。第1項第8款情形如屬應提起申訴。"},{"start":6382.395,"end":6402.301,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益"},{"start":6409.483,"end":6434.69,"text":"原行政處分為正當,並經給予副審人表示意見之機會者,得以副審為無理由,提起副審因欲法定期間為不受理決定,而原行政處分嫌屬違法或顯然不當者,權保會得以決定理由中並以指明之。」行政院委員徐巧芯等提案第47條同行政院提案"},{"start":6435.45,"end":6451.043,"text":"行政院提案第48條依第13條第一項規定提起支付審有理由者權保會應以決定撤銷原行政處分之全部或一部。委員徐巧芯等提案第48條同行政院提案行政院提案第49條依第13條第二項規定"},{"start":6455.066,"end":6474.277,"text":"對權責機關之不作為提起之附審有理由者,權保會應以決定指定相當期間,命應為行政處分之權責機關,述為一定之行政處分。一、第13條第二項規定對駁回之行政處分提起之附審有理由者,權保會應以決定撤銷原駁回行政處分之全部或一部。"},{"start":6475.577,"end":6503.21,"text":"並發委員處分機關面期與指定之期間內另為處分。委員徐巧芯等提案第49條,同行政院提案第50條,城堡會發現原行政處分雖屬違法或顯然不當,但其撤銷或變更與公益有重大損害,經斟酌副審人所受損害、賠償程度、防止方法及其他一切情勢,任原行政處分之撤銷或變更、嫌與公益相違備時,得駁回其副審。"},{"start":6505.251,"end":6525.762,"text":"前項情形應與決定主文中載明原行政處分違法或顯然不當。五、委員徐巧芯等提案第50條同行政院提案、行政院提案第51條簽保會為前條決定時的曾卓副審人因違法或顯然不當行政處分所受損害,與決定理由中載明有緣處分機關與副審人進行賠償協議,前項協議與國家賠償法之協議有同意之效力。"},{"start":6532.426,"end":6551.665,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第51條同行政院提案。行政院提案第52條附審之決定因與權保會收受員處分機關檢卷答辯之次日起三個月內為之,依第23條規定通知補正者至補正之次日起算,未為補正者至補正期間屆滿之次日起算。"},{"start":6553.287,"end":6574.865,"text":"負審人於負審決定期間內續補具理由者負審決定期間至全保會收受罪後補具理由之次日起算。負審事件不能於前項期間內決定者得予延長,並通知負審人延長以一次為限,最長不得於兩個月。負審人於延長決定期間後再補具理由者負審決定期間至全保會收受"},{"start":6575.546,"end":6594.744,"text":"不具理由之次日起算不得欲2個月。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第52條同行政院提案。行政院提案第53條。副審人死亡副審程序得予承受副審人承受副審前當然停止副審之決定以他法律關係是否成立為準據。"},{"start":6596.806,"end":6620.133,"text":"而該法律關係在訴訟或其他救濟程序進行中者與該法律關係確定前,全保會得停止複審程序之進行,並即通知複審人。一、前兩項規定停止複審程序之進行者,前兩鎖定複審決定期間,至得承受複審之人承受複審或續行複審程序之日起,重新起算。委員徐巧芯等人"},{"start":6620.993,"end":6648.891,"text":"提案第53條同行政院提案。行政院提案第54條附審決定書應在明下列事項。一、附審人姓名服役單位直接或職業住居所或服役單位之住地。二、由法定代理人或附審代理人則其姓名職業住居所或事務所。三、主文事實及理由其系不受理決定者則不記載事實。四、參與決定之前保委員姓名無年月日。"},{"start":6649.491,"end":6671.731,"text":"副審決定師之正本應於決定後15日內送達副審人及原處分機關。委員徐巧芯等提案第54條同行政院提案。行政院提案第55條副審人不符副審決定者得以副審決定送達之次日期2個月內向原處分機關所在地之勤務法庭提起行政訴訟。但副審決定與艦艇航行期間送達者"},{"start":6676.235,"end":6697.929,"text":"其兩個月期間致潛艇房抵國內港口之次日起算,原處分機關為依第49條規定與權保會指定期間內作成行政處分者,副審人得與指定期間屆滿之次日期兩個月內竟向原處分機關所在地之勤務法庭提起行政訴訟。原處分機關依第49條規定再作成之行政處分,"},{"start":6699.21,"end":6716.978,"text":"副審人仍有不符則的競向原處分機關所在地之勤務法庭提起行政訴訟,其提起行政訴訟期間準用第一項規定。不符第九條第三項規定合併審議之副審決定者副審人得向該審議之權保會所在地之勤務法庭合併提起行政訴訟。"},{"start":6718.871,"end":6740.965,"text":"前四項訴訟除記過身屆及標的金額或價格在新台幣50萬元以下關於公法上財產關係之訴訟,由勤務法庭准用行政訴訟法檢疫訴訟程序審理外,應由勤務法庭准用行政訴訟法通常訴訟程序審理。委員徐巧芯等人提案第55條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":6743.976,"end":6773.208,"text":"行政院提案第56條復審決定書應復寄,如不符決定,得以前條第一項所定兩個月內期間向原處分機關或合併審議之權保會所在地之勤務法典提起行政訴訟。前項提起行政訴訟之期間復寄錯誤時,應由權保會通知更正之,並致更正通知送達之次日期計算法定期間。權保會未依第一項規定復寄期間或復寄錯誤,而依前項規定通知更正。"},{"start":6773.968,"end":6795.655,"text":"支援提起行政訴訟之人持務行政訴訟期間,如與副審決定疏送達次日起一年內提起行政訴訟,視為於法定期間內提起。委員徐巧芯等人提案第56條同行政院提案。行政院提案第4章申訴及再申訴。委員徐巧芯等人提案同行政院提案。"},{"start":6797.267,"end":6819.285,"text":"行政院提案第一節,申訴程序及處理。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第一節,同行政院提案。行政院提案第57條,軍人對於乘者機關所為附審事件以外之行政處分或管理措施,認為違法或不當,致影響其權益者,得依法向申訴管轄機關提起訴訟。軍人不服檢訴禁足"},{"start":6820.886,"end":6843.257,"text":"罰刑、罰戰、人事禁認或調遷之行政處分,應依前項規定提起訴訟。軍人與上司信任軍人身份後,皆獲前兩項行政處分或管理措施者,亦得依第一項規定提起訴訟。委員徐巧芯等提案第57條除第二項內容為,軍人不服罰請人事禁認或"},{"start":6844.978,"end":6872.971,"text":"簽調之行政處分,應依前項規定提起訴訟、申訴,其予同行政院提案。行政院提案第58條,申訴之提起,應予行政處分或管理措施,訟達之次日起30日內以延遲、書面或其他適當方法向申訴管轄機關提出,但行政處分或管理措施與艦艇航行期間"},{"start":6874.091,"end":6892.332,"text":"送達者其30日期間至艦艇反抵國內港口之次日起算。五、請向行政處分或管理措施以書面以外方式作成者經受處分或措施之人請求作成書面時,原處分機關或原措施機關不得拒絕。"},{"start":6893.633,"end":6909.215,"text":"受處分或錯失之人當場表示不符或陳述理由者,該機關應依其請求,將不符之理由自作記錄交付之。」行政院提案第58條委員徐巧芯等提案第58條同行政院提案"},{"start":6910.529,"end":6928.943,"text":"行政院提案第59條,申訴管轄機關對於申訴事件予以收受申訴之次日起30日內,就請求事項予以妥適之處理,必要時得延長10日,並通知申訴人藉其未處理者、申訴人得進提再申訴。申訴處理"},{"start":6931.024,"end":6958.271,"text":"以書面為之,因附計如不符處理者,得與第62條第二項所定20日期間內向全保會提起再申訴。以書面以外方式作成者,經申訴人請求作成書面時,申訴管轄機關不得拒絕。申訴事件之管轄機關全程劃分處理程序及其他相關事項之辦法由國防部及其他軍文並用機關定之。"},{"start":6959.072,"end":6962.849,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案第59條,同行政院提案。"},{"start":6964.744,"end":6989.485,"text":"行政院提案第60條,申訴事件有下列情形之一者的不予處理。一、提起申訴欲第58條第1項鎖定法定期間。二、無具體知識實內容或未具真實姓名服役單位住址或其他聯絡方式。三、同意事由以提起附審申訴或行政訴訟而仍一再提起。四、非申訴管轄機關接觸申訴人以同意事由"},{"start":6990.766,"end":7012.891,"text":"各機關申訴委員徐巧芯等人提案第60條同行政院提案。行政院提案第61條應提起附審之事件,勿提起申訴者,申訴管轄機關應已有原處分機關依附審程序處理,並通知該勿提申訴之人。委員徐巧芯等人提案第61條同行政院提案。"},{"start":7013.511,"end":7034.29,"text":"行政院提案第二節再申訴程序及處理。委員徐巧芯等提案同行政院提案。行政院提案第62條不符申訴管轄及官司申訴處理者得依本法向全保會提起再申訴。申訴人不符再申訴處理者得予申訴處理。送達之次日及二十日內向全保會提起再申訴。"},{"start":7037.735,"end":7043.095,"text":"艦艇航行期間送達者其20日期間至艦艇繁體國內港口之次日起算。"},{"start":7045.236,"end":7074.016,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案第62條同行政院提案行政院提案第63條提起再申訴應再具申訴書在您下列事項。一、再申訴人姓名、出生年月日、服役單位、職階或職業、住居所或服役單位之住地身份證明文件字號。二、由法定代理人或再申訴代理人則行姓名、出生年月日、職業、住居所或事務所身份證明文件字號。"},{"start":7074.736,"end":7099.189,"text":"三、請求事項。四、再申訴之事實及理由。五、證據。六、原行政處分或原管理措施及申訴處理送達之年月日。七、提起再申訴之年月日。再申訴書應由再申訴人及法定代理人簽名蓋章,但委任再申訴代理人者應由再申訴代理人簽名或蓋章。"},{"start":7100.089,"end":7125.629,"text":"委員徐巧芯等人提案第63條同行政院提案行政院提案第64條再申訴決定應於收受再申訴書資至日期三個月內為之必要時得延長一個月並通知再申訴人。委員徐巧芯等人提案第64條同行政院提案行政院提案第65條原處分機關、原措施機關或申訴管轄機關"},{"start":7127.37,"end":7148.14,"text":"對於全保會函詢之再申訴事件,應於20日內將適時理由及處理意見並附有關資料回覆全保會。前項被函詢之機關對於再申訴事件位於前項規定期間內回覆者,全保會得盡為決定。委員徐巧芯等提案第65條同行政院提案"},{"start":7149.844,"end":7162.21,"text":"行政院提案第66條對第57條第2項所定之簡述禁足罰刑罰站行政處分提起再申訴有理由者如該行政處分已經執行完畢權保會因為確認違法之決定權保會違權項決定時準用第51條規定"},{"start":7168.413,"end":7185.635,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第66條同行政院提案。行政院提案第67條應提起附審或申訴之事件,務向權保會提起再申訴者。權保會應通知原處分機關或申訴管轄機關依附審或申訴程序處理,並通知"},{"start":7186.796,"end":7211.376,"text":"該物體再申訴之人。」委員徐巧芯等人提案第67條同行政院提案。行政院提案第68條,再申訴處本屆另有規定外,準用本法附層之規定。委員徐巧芯等人提案第68條同行政院提案。行政院提案第69條,再申訴人不符再申訴決定者處原行政處分或管轄或管理措施顯"},{"start":7213.317,"end":7231.669,"text":"乃輕微之根欲外,得與再申訴決定送達之次日其一個月內向原處分機關或原措施機關所在地之請勿法庭提起行政訴訟,但再申訴決定與艦艇航行期間送達者其一個月期間至艦艇返抵國內港口之次日其算。"},{"start":7232.529,"end":7250.44,"text":"原處分機關或原措施機關 規定與權保會指定期間內做成行政處分或管理措施者,在申訴人得以指定期間屆滿之次日期一個月內進向原處分機關或原措施機關所在地之勤務法庭,"},{"start":7251.28,"end":7277.953,"text":"提起行政訴訟原處分機關或原措施機關一第68條準用第49條規定再作成之行政處分或管理措施再申訴人仍有不符則的競向原處分機關或原措施機關所在地之勤務法庭提起行政訴訟其提起行政訴訟期間準用第一項規定不符第9條第三項合併審議之再申訴決定者再申訴人得向該合併審議之權保會"},{"start":7280.214,"end":7294.065,"text":"所在地之勤務法庭合併提起行政訴訟。」前四項訴訟由勤務法庭准用《行政訴訟法檢疫訴訟程序審理》。委員徐巧芯等人提案第69條同行政院提案"},{"start":7297.219,"end":7326.499,"text":"行政院提案第5章高等軍事法院勤務法庭委員徐巧芯等人提案第5章同行政院提案行政院提案第70條附審人及再申訴人不符全保會所為之附審或再申訴決定者以勤務法庭為行政訴訟管轄級法院第二條鎖定權益爭議事件得盡依行政訴訟法提起行政訴訟者一同勤務法庭審理前項事件除凡法另有規定外準用行政訴訟法之規定"},{"start":7327.319,"end":7344.941,"text":"勤務法庭之審理系者由國防部定之。委員徐巧芯等提案第70條同行政院提案。行政院提案第71條勤務法庭由軍事審判官三人合意審理之但檢疫訴訟程序,得由軍事審判官一人單獨審。"},{"start":7347.196,"end":7352.949,"text":"可有軍事審判官一人獨任審理之,前向合意審判以庭長充任審判長,無庭長或庭長有事故時,以庭園中"},{"start":7358.564,"end":7387.043,"text":"中皆高之身者從任之。」委員徐巧芯等提案第71條同行政院提案。行政院提案第72條和議庭之組織因軍事審判官迴避或其他原因至人額不足時得由地方軍事法院調充之。委員徐巧芯等提案第72條同行政院提案。行政院提案第73條行務法庭受理行政訴訟事件免。"},{"start":7388.524,"end":7417.473,"text":"增裁判費等一行政訴訟法第98條之六第一項第一款規定徵收者不再持限。五、委員徐巧芯等人提案第73條同行政院提案行政院提案第74條對勤務法庭之裁判等一行政訴訟法第三邊或第四邊規定上訴或抗告於勤務法庭所在地之高等行政法院。五、委員徐巧芯等人提案第74條同行政院提案"},{"start":7418.513,"end":7447.822,"text":"行政院提案第6章覆則。委員徐巧芯等人提案第6章覆則。行政院提案第75條本法規定於暫時戒嚴或動員實施階段有一部或全部暫停適用之必要者其暫停適用之範圍或地域由國防部引命令定之。前項情形本法所定期間停止進行至回復適用之次日期重新起算。委員徐巧芯等人提案第75條同行政院提案。第76條行政院提案"},{"start":7449.522,"end":7477.405,"text":"受軍事教育條例第5條第1項第4款軍事養成教育且不具軍人身份之學生與基礎教育期間對於權責機關所為行政處分或管理措施不符之救濟,准用本法之規定。五、委員徐巧芯等提案第76條同行政院提案第77條本法施行前以依其他法令提起救濟而尚未終結之事件處以細於屬於行政法院之事件"},{"start":7479.106,"end":7505.521,"text":"訴訟程序規定審理外,應依本法所定程序終結之,但以依法定程序進行之行為,效力不受影響。」委員徐巧芯等提案第77條,同行政院提案第78條,本法施行日期由行政院定之。委員徐巧芯等提案第78條,本法施行日期由行政院定之。現在宣讀委員之修正動議。"},{"start":7507.29,"end":7533.749,"text":"修正動議第一案,修正第37條及第70條。第37條,甄列第四項內容為,副審人或有關人員如有不通曉國語則由通譯傳譯之,其為聽覺或語言障礙除由通譯傳譯之外,並得依其選擇以文字詢問或請其以文字陳述,其與同行政院提案。第70條,副審人"},{"start":7537.625,"end":7556.764,"text":"第70條陣列第3項內容為勤務法庭及其他法院兼審判權正義之處理,準用法院組織法之規定。原行政院提案第3項調整為第4項,其餘同行政院提案,提案人委員沈伯陽、羅美玲、林祖英等委員。"},{"start":7558.109,"end":7578.995,"text":"修正動議第二案。修正第一條為統合處理軍人權益之爭議事件保障軍人權益兼顧部隊紀律並鞏固戰力特制定本法。第十條除第一項合議決定之修正內容為審議決定之其與同行政院提案。第十五條除第一項"},{"start":7580.475,"end":7602.37,"text":"墨具修正為其30日期間至建庭返抵國內港口且送達當事人之次日起算,其與同行政院提案。第55條第一項墨具修正為其兩個月期間至建庭返抵國內港口且送達副省人之次日起算,其與同行政院提案。"},{"start":7603.7,"end":7615.869,"text":"第58條除第一項默劇修正為其30日期間至艦艇防抵國內港口且送達當事人之次日起算其與同行政院提案。第62條除第二項默劇修正為其"},{"start":7620.532,"end":7645.621,"text":"日期間至艦艇返抵國內港口且送達當事人之次日起算,其與同行政院提案。第69條除第1項默劇修正為其一個月期間至艦艇返抵國內港口且送達再生數人之次日起算,其與同行政院提案。提案人委員馬文君、鄭天才、陳永康、黃仁等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7652.029,"end":7674.4,"text":"我們補充介紹我們在場委員有陳冠廷委員、沈博洋委員那因為早上我們議事錄宣讀完還沒有確認請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有的話議事錄確定那我們現在進到我們的那個檯面上來處理條文在處理之前本席先宣告"},{"start":7676.159,"end":7700.329,"text":"我們今天要審查的兩部法一個是行政院函請審議陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案另外還有軍人權益事件處理法草案本席徵求我們在場委員同意第一個我們當依序先處理陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案沒有提修正動議的"},{"start":7701.966,"end":7708.773,"text":"或者沒有提委員版本的,我們就以院版通過。如果有修正動議,"},{"start":7710.322,"end":7738.541,"text":"或者有委員提案不同版本按照議事規則我們由遠而近先處理修正動議再來處理委員的版本而處理的條目次我們以行政院版為基準這樣才能夠有次序來處理本席再宣告一次也讓還沒有到場的委員有時間趕到現場第一個我們今天要處理的是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案還有軍人權益事件處理法草案依序處理"},{"start":7739.702,"end":7759.84,"text":"第一我們已經都已經宣讀完畢沒有提修正動議或者沒有委員自提版本的那除非有另外提出我們就視為通過按照原本通過那有提出修正動議或者有委員提出版本的我們就依照"},{"start":7761.018,"end":7780.514,"text":"以行政院版的條文為基準逐條往下審查,處理的方式由遠而近,先處理修正動議,再來處理委員提案版本,然後最後回覆到我們的行政院版本,按照這個次序處理。」那現場委員有沒有意見?沒有的話我們現在到那個現場桌上開始處理。"},{"start":7803.097,"end":7828.448,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案 徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案"},{"start":7832.27,"end":7847.823,"text":"沒有提委員版本的我們簡則上就是視為有共識以院版來通過我們把精力著重在我們有不同意見的地方。第二個如果有修正動議有委員提案版本的"},{"start":7848.524,"end":7865.299,"text":"我們就以行政院版為基準逐條往下審查那按照議事規則由遠而近先處理修正動議再來處理委員提案版本最後看通過的共識版本是什麼那以這樣來做處理順序這場委員有沒有意見?來,毛委員"},{"start":7872.05,"end":7885.599,"text":"對於有些條文其實我們沒有特別有修正的那個條文意見不過我們還是希望內容可能有一些要詢問或了解的部分可以提我沒有說不能提我是這樣子因為條文很多啦我們都已經花時間一讀都把它讀完了所以我現在是先處理我們處理的程序流程大家有共識我們待會處理會比較有效率一點我們現在要處理的是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案"},{"start":7902.05,"end":7912.401,"text":"還有軍人權益事件處理法草案2個案。」那我們現在處理的先後順序就按照我們這序號來處理那處理的邏輯採取這樣第一個沒有提修正動議"},{"start":7915.97,"end":7940.182,"text":"委員也沒有提版本的,或者版本跟行政院版一樣的,原則上就是按院版來通過,這是屬於有共識的部分,但是如果委員對個別條文還是有意見,場面上還是可以提出來,那不然我們再重新再念一次,又花兩個小時啦。第二個,我會集中處理在有提修正動議,或者委員自提版本的,然後以行政院版為"},{"start":7941.463,"end":7960.711,"text":"基準逐條往下審查由遠而近先處理修正動議再來處理委員提案版本最後收納起來然後國防部法律司這邊有要跟委員個別協調的競訴協調有些其實溝通一下應該就大家有共識的所以因為這個我們現在先來處理陸海空軍懲罰法的修正草案那"},{"start":7970.589,"end":7995.198,"text":"目前看起來在第4條的部分馬委員有提修正動議然後在第5條的部分是徐巧芯委員的版本的第15條就是行政院版的第5條我們就把它放在一起處理中央也剛到我們把程序先有共識我們待會走還比較順"},{"start":7997.139,"end":8009.02,"text":"容忍我再講一次我們處理的順序我們要處理兩個法一個是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案我們先處理完這個接下來處理軍人權益事件處理法草案兩個法"},{"start":8010.765,"end":8033.828,"text":"如果沒有委員提修正動議,也沒有委員提不一樣的版本,也讓我們視為對行政院版有共識,那院版就照案通過。但是,如果像剛剛馬委員提的,我對這個條文雖然沒有提案,我還有意見,當場提出來就好,我就不要再重新再讀了,要不然要再一讀一次又變成兩個小時。第二個,如果有修正動議,"},{"start":8035.129,"end":8061.829,"text":"有委員個別提案,我們就以行政院版為基準逐條往下審,由遠而近先處理修正動議,修正動議完處理委員提案,然後在後看最後通過是哪個版本。我們按照這樣持續處理,各位委員有沒有意見?有沒有意見?好,那我們現在就開始先處理陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案。那如果沒有特別意見的話,我就先處理第4條,馬文君委員有提修正動議嗎?"},{"start":8063.799,"end":8066.681,"text":"本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8086.226,"end":8091.772,"text":"罗志强委員有提修正动議,馬文君委員本來就有修正動議。"},{"start":8099.329,"end":8102.052,"text":"四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8120.872,"end":8145.97,"text":"所以我這裡提出將這個悔過、刪除與重大懲罰的類型之外,它還是懲罰,只是它不是重大懲罰。好,這個待會我們請業務主管機關回覆,那這個翁委員的提案比較單純,他認為悔過不夠重大,他是算一般處罰而已。這個法律的見解,那個法律師有沒有意見?來,我們待會再處理馬委員的。"},{"start":8150.062,"end":8171.112,"text":"草委委員好,委員提那個把悔過從重大懲罰拿掉這個當然我們也尊重但我們當初考量的就是說悔過它畢竟還有一個效果就是它會有悔過期間不進入議期那對尤其對義務役的官兵某個程度還是有點影響那它放到重大懲罰裡面的一個"},{"start":8171.952,"end":8174.434,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8201.852,"end":8208.894,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":8230.02,"end":8234.143,"text":"不是我們一般講的悔過書那種悔過,它其實有點類似以前的關禁閉。因為這個條文它會連結到第29條,這個針對什麼叫重大懲罰,它必須要出於重大過失才能夠被判重大懲罰。那麼所以我認為說像關禁閉其實在軍中應該可能它就是違反簡單的軍紀等等有的時候一個處罰可能就是去關禁閉,而且現在關禁閉的場所已經改變了。"},{"start":8257.581,"end":8264.405,"text":"處理法草案案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案"},{"start":8286.257,"end":8310.951,"text":"如果按照第4條的定義連悔過或是相當……我們就先講悔過好了先專心一天一天來這樣才有次序先處理翁小林委員的提案如果這個悔過都是屬於重大懲罰的話我們一定要先看這個第6條現行的條文"},{"start":8313.315,"end":8321.177,"text":"現行條文軍人非執行勤務而有下列行為之一者軍人非執行勤務軍人非執行勤務軍人非執行勤務軍人非執行勤務軍人非執行勤務"},{"start":8339.175,"end":8359.529,"text":"意思是說前面的第7款以外的都可以重大懲罰尤其是非執行勤務尤其是像那個我們就講大家以為會很重第6條的第1款故意觸犯刑事法例"},{"start":8361.937,"end":8387.612,"text":"刑事法律刑事法律很多非常多我就舉例子我就講原住民原住民使用祖先的土地但是因為被對登記為國有土地我們就繼續使用到現在然後我們有這種案例有這種案例"},{"start":8389.366,"end":8397.071,"text":"就被判竊贓刑罪刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事刑事"},{"start":8419.881,"end":8425.562,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案"},{"start":8447.876,"end":8463.777,"text":"一到六條屬於重大,不是不重大。第七條因為它是一個不特定的,就是不符合軍人身份、逐身影響軍域之服役、槍人情侮。他是特別講說第七條這種不明確的我們不要隨意的把它框進重大懲罰。"},{"start":8465.433,"end":8468.055,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8492.333,"end":8515.469,"text":"這一點的我的意見比較不一樣因為先前有處理過這個海軍的99旅的自傷案那他呢最後是選擇了自殺那他在自殺的過程就是他在整個自殺的過程當中他是他的家屬認為他受到了很嚴重的霸凌那其中的霸凌方式就包含了這個回過"},{"start":8516.229,"end":8517.01,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8534.133,"end":8546.797,"text":"處理法草案案。五、軍人權益事件處理法草案。六、軍人權益事件處理法草案。七、軍人權益事件處理法草案。八、軍人權益事件處理法草案。九、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事件處理法草案。十、軍人權益事"},{"start":8563.842,"end":8581.348,"text":"軍官對軍人要求他們要回過,不管是關禁閉或者是寫回過書,都要有程序。這是我的看法。陳柏楊委員,我覺得聚焦一下,應該最大的爭點是,他到底算不算是比較,因為他算重大的懲罰的話,他反而會比較難用。"},{"start":8583.629,"end":8606.581,"text":"如果我們現在認為說他這一個情況就是說用悔過的方式其實還是蠻嚴厲的話那就應該用比較嚴厲的程序用嚴格的程序要用嚴格的程序就應該放在重大懲罰裡面這樣講就是說我如果沒有把它列在重大懲罰這個項目裡面的話對部隊的長官要關小兵的警備比較容易比較容易啟動"},{"start":8608.144,"end":8608.645,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8620.572,"end":8642.303,"text":"他這裡牽涉到他悔過期間一期不算喔他如果悔過三天他當兵要多當三天喔這第一個其實影響很大第二個這一個在軍中的悔過我們不希望是長官一時氣憤下的執行他要經過一個委員會的考量而不是當下長官對這個部下不爽抓去關緊閉喔"},{"start":8644.024,"end":8653.013,"text":"這個部分是不是大家討論看看是把它留在重大重大就是說要啟動它要有一定的程序而不是輕易的啟動是不是翁委員可不可以接受"},{"start":8654.412,"end":8656.113,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案件事項》案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8676.641,"end":8677.662,"text":"事件處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8697.016,"end":8716.233,"text":"設施各方面其實都越來……這個設備都改善了嘛。剛剛講的那些都是極端的案例,它只是一個執行方式,可能有濫用、誤用,但是我相信軍中的長官大概都會很注意這些問題。那麼既然如果說大家有意見的話,那我就建議乾脆就送保留協商。我們還是盡量在這邊處理啦,好不好?還有沒有其他的意見?"},{"start":8724.865,"end":8728.241,"text":"第4條,待會我會處理馬委員的部分先處理翁委員的部分"},{"start":8731.946,"end":8751.538,"text":"因為其實有提修正的整個加起來條文不多我們保留到最後還是我們要來處理所以我們是不是先把它討論清楚我建議昭薇我們先保留因為我後面有另外一個22條是直接刪除掉回過的所以我想在這邊會有更多的爭點那妳跟翁委員兩個是完全相反的所以我建議說先直接保留要不要我連22條一起保留因為你們是完全相反的論點我是第幾條我問一下"},{"start":8760.444,"end":8760.784,"text":"草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8782.315,"end":8785.597,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":8810.882,"end":8816.663,"text":"因為我們離這個現場比較近保留到黨團協商因為我還是提醒我們兩個委員會的委員"},{"start":8818.804,"end":8839.451,"text":"這個法將來在部隊要用我們現在義務役的藝男會越來越多了所以如果我們能夠在這邊有共識我會比較傾向在這裡有共識因為到黨團黨團的大人他們處理的太多委員會的案子到時候萬一萬一這一些有一些思考不周到的部分法在執行的時候我是覺得我們還是要謹慎"},{"start":8841.903,"end":8843.524,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":8863.453,"end":8880.078,"text":"或者認為這種案子影響很大所以根本不應該讓你用所以要嘛就列重大要嘛就整個拿掉這兩個觀念不同的競合我們挪到最後你們兩位想一下但是我們在委員會還是努力處理看看因為初委員會我坦白講到黨團協商不會比我們細膩來那個林楚欣委員"},{"start":8886.22,"end":8887.562,"text":"處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8901.901,"end":8909.606,"text":"作為應該它是要有一定的程序性跟它的補正性所以我不認為悔過這樣的一個所謂懲罰必須要把它移除或拿掉所以我的意見是說在這樣的所謂軍中的管理的過程中當你在實施悔過的時候它實施的程序以及後續如果說悔過不當它有沒有什麼補正程序我覺得這樣才對而不是說就是一刀切然後變成是要悔過"},{"start":8930.759,"end":8933.2,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":8955.329,"end":8972.539,"text":"我跟各位再報告一下毀過他早期士兵叫做禁閉士官叫做毀過後來在洪仲秋案之後我們就把這整個名稱就單獨叫做毀過那在此之前毀過是要關在禁閉室裡面"},{"start":8973.439,"end":8977.121,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":8998.254,"end":9002.857,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":9022.089,"end":9026.112,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9046.147,"end":9066.506,"text":"這個議期的延長跟傳統以來大家對悔過的印象我們認為說原來在立草案的時候我們覺得說他還是可能用一個比較嚴謹的方式去處理會比較好所以我們原先把它放在重大的懲罰那重大的懲罰就是第一個悔過的人將來救濟的時候是直接進複審程序那第二個就是在做悔過之前"},{"start":9067.507,"end":9084.12,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件"},{"start":9094.568,"end":9097.969,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。七、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。八、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":9122.099,"end":9123.719,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9149.386,"end":9164.519,"text":"法律師剛才說明,我們跟各位委員報告,第一個,已經不是像以前關起來啦,他等於是找個宿舍集中住在那裡,進行教育啊,那最主要是,當兵最怕進駕啦,"},{"start":9165.799,"end":9187.495,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、行政院徐巧芯"},{"start":9192.859,"end":9204.347,"text":"有整個配套的法律司的條文能夠說服大家。我還是聽各位委員的意見,那翁委員。大家可以看一下,在這個現在院版的第18條裡面,他把那個悔過是放在紀律懲罰,跟這個剛剛講的重大懲罰涉及到撤職啊,什麼這樣借過罰環啊,屬於人事懲罰跟財產懲罰,這是完全不同概念的懲罰。我想請問這個司長,就是在美國啊、德國啊、日本,他們有沒有這個所謂的悔過的制度?"},{"start":9222.346,"end":9227.907,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":9250.693,"end":9253.255,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案件事項》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9270.305,"end":9272.267,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9294.127,"end":9299.428,"text":"是,但是我認為說基本上還是要考慮到現在這個整體社會上面對於我們的軍紀感受到是散漫的常常發生很多意想不到的一個違反軍紀的一些亂象那如果說在現在如果說要再把悔過這個制度整個拿掉或是說把悔過當成是一個重大的懲罰還非出於重大過失還不能夠這個處以悔過"},{"start":9322.233,"end":9324.974,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9348.74,"end":9350.921,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件"},{"start":9376.989,"end":9380.191,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":9402.785,"end":9406.147,"text":"影響官兵權益事件處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9427.096,"end":9448.148,"text":"多花點時間討論,因為我們在暖車階段,我們希望後面車子可以開快一點。」好,接下來第4條的第二個修正案是馬文君委員的有關罰薪20萬以下跟權額薪資5個月以上這條嘛,那是不是請馬委員先提出看法,然後帶沈司長回應,那各位表達意見,來。"},{"start":9449.389,"end":9453.255,"text":"這個部分我們在最後第6款的部分有提到在可能對於懲罰這個是財產的懲罰那當時的考量就是用士兵"},{"start":9467.042,"end":9468.965,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9482.562,"end":9484.203,"text":"二、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9505.213,"end":9505.694,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9525.126,"end":9542.014,"text":"非常謝謝委員的指導我跟委員報告我們當初最早寫草案的時候我們在討論的時候本來定的是50萬那個時候50萬他還有一個就是因為這些案子將來都可以去救濟50萬的話在行政法院是通常程序在以下的話是檢疫程序所以本來是定50萬"},{"start":9542.794,"end":9564.805,"text":"後來在研討的過程當中大家覺得50萬可能還是高了一點所以說這個重大懲罰我們覺得說對一個軍人不論是軍官士官其實兵我覺得不會處到20萬當初是總要有一個標準委員您的見解我們非常的佩服但是就是我們怕將來執行上面不同的人以全額薪給的話每一個都算不同光上校1到12級吧"},{"start":9567.126,"end":9571.51,"text":"處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9594.968,"end":9607.953,"text":"你的薪資給得出去那就表示算得出來那個有很困難嗎每個月都在領我們現在要講的先用這個部分的考量先交流一下意見你可以稍微保護一下主席我這邊是支持馬文君委員的版本因為我覺得你就定一個20萬以上這個相當的粗糙"},{"start":9618.937,"end":9622.379,"text":"處理法草案案 案。三、軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9637.887,"end":9638.748,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9654.193,"end":9679.311,"text":"來,還有沒有其他委員意見?沒有的話麻煩軍委員因為今天你這個對象還包括義務役的士兵而已的兵而已那其實他們對整個我們軍中的了解度本來就是比較不熟悉可是你對於像這些校級或者甚至將軍他們如果會犯到重大的這些為師其實已經很明顯了"},{"start":9681.713,"end":9683.593,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9710.962,"end":9723.583,"text":"這兩種思維,一個就是我犯了一樣的錯,就好像我們在社會上我違了一個規違了一個法,會因為你的階級所得不同,罰金有高低嗎?"},{"start":9725.683,"end":9728.385,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查"},{"start":9746.512,"end":9768.834,"text":"通常程序跟檢疫程序到行政訴訟的話當然程序上會分析到高等級。五十以上。五十都可能高了一點,所以說後來才把它降到二十。另外這個重大懲罰還有一個牽涉到的就是後面可能會有時效的問題。其實我跟各位報告,我們其實站在國防部的立場,我們"},{"start":9769.815,"end":9773.398,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等"},{"start":9787.409,"end":9788.57,"text":"事件處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":9806.5,"end":9833.521,"text":"或是說罰情這個對他們是比較有效的方式我跟委員報告他們的收入也沒有很多給他用罰款的方式我覺得這個我們將來整個弄完了以後我們都還會對我們的同仁做宣導雖然定在這邊沒有禁止他不能那樣做但是我們當初本來在罰款的上面主要也是針對志願役的軍官但是我覺得你們這樣子你們也沒有因為本法他並沒有分成義務役或者是這是對全體軍事官兵"},{"start":9835.743,"end":9860.369,"text":"我們這個法修出來之後,那所有的義烏義一大堆義男,那他才十幾歲要準備當兵的,看到說重大懲罰要罰20萬以上,嚇都嚇死了。我們應該是鼓勵大家來當兵,然後呢我們的懲罰都是很合理的,不是拿這個東西來嚇他們啊。對,報告委員,我們沒有要嚇他們,只是說他的那個行為如果是很輕微,或許他禁足一周。"},{"start":9861.249,"end":9863.37,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":9878.331,"end":9892.097,"text":"因為就是說在法律的設計上就是如果說我們今天要改成像剛剛講的這一個幾薪資5個月以上的話就是說我想知道國防部在處罰的時候我們會不會在處罰的時候直接去考量對方的關節"},{"start":9894.298,"end":9899.382,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。"},{"start":9923.328,"end":9930.052,"text":"所以這就是為什麼一開始設計的時候這就是為什麼一開始設計的時候會講說可能到50萬我問一個技術性問題喔那個馬委員你的全薪是指所有的縫級還是整縫因為他現在20萬也是用這樣子算出來的啦我們要把它定性就是說我對這沒有定見啦我如果說要罰你罰薪5個月以上是本縫5個月還是領導加級作戰那些都要算進去這個金額差很多"},{"start":9953.447,"end":9965.21,"text":"其實我也沒有特別的意見因為就這個部分你既然是重大的為師的部分對因為你現在來做立法說明的時候你是以兵去計算的所以你才會算出20萬你今天如果說有重大的為師對所有的因為你的階級越高其實你應該越清楚那你犯的錯一定要犯很大的錯你才會受到這樣的處分那就這樣子你按你的"},{"start":9980.134,"end":9981.615,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查"},{"start":10003.724,"end":10013.048,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":10036.692,"end":10060.847,"text":"我其實只是提一個我的疑問就是我們在發生這個重大的危機的事件的過程當中有沒有一個可能是他不會是一個人的作為而是如果說是不只一位以上不是不只有一位是一位以上的時候如果我們現在是用薪資五個月那會不會叫小兵扛的可能因為小兵的薪資比較少"},{"start":10061.787,"end":10086.159,"text":"那如果說就像剛剛地域委員有特別提到的是說在我們一個重大的懲罰的過程當中就像以酒駕或是我們不能接受的犯罪行為的時候他不應該是看照他的薪水然後薪資是降官所以他的錢比較多就罰得比較重因為我們很多的法規制定的過程當中他就是這個罪行就判多少年或多少的罰金這應該是有個定額在那裡"},{"start":10088.1,"end":10106.437,"text":"所以我只是想請問說如果我們用興奉來看的時候比如五個月那將官就會罰比較多的錢那如果他是一個集體的犯罪的時候他有沒有可能把罪通通都推給那個小兵因為小兵的興奉錢比較低我的想法是這樣那個是執行面的問題了啦那個就要通通抓起來了我們的意思就是說是不是一個定額是比較對的"},{"start":10109.838,"end":10120.162,"text":"你用一個月薪這樣子然後因為不一樣的人然後月薪就比較高那顯然他的罰則上面就是比較高的就是就刑期來講或你現在我們現在講的是金錢嘛那個那同樣一個罪為什麼就是有限罰的錢比較多有限罰的錢比較少還有一些執行面問題我們大概提出來那個鄭天才委員"},{"start":10135.894,"end":10152.894,"text":"我們先看這個如果按照行政院版的第19條我們先看這個輕重的順序這個輕重這個以悔過來講他前面是罰款罰款前面是罰薪以這個輕重來看的話"},{"start":10153.803,"end":10164.762,"text":"那所以這個我們現在這個行政院版的這個重大懲罰毀過然後把那個罰金的部分呢是放在後面"},{"start":10165.711,"end":10168.532,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10189.352,"end":10195.855,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、"},{"start":10218.763,"end":10220.985,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10239.002,"end":10253.21,"text":"所以你看喔,被降級其實尊嚴也受損然後我的實質利得也受損那後面有罰薪那我們現在把罰款也跟薪資綁在一起這三件事情在順序輕重比例上"},{"start":10254.35,"end":10270.627,"text":"會有一些些矛盾。」這個我們想一下好不好?對,所以我剛才說政委員來行的啦,你提這個是,是要去設法,我們一個處罰有一個次序感。今天,崔永康要處罰我,他就罰這個這個這個,他一定有個次序。可是我們現在變成,比較輕的處罰變得比較重。"},{"start":10273.353,"end":10274.094,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10293.271,"end":10295.873,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10318.952,"end":10342.905,"text":"其實我跟各位報告,其實很多罰則是經過大家討論的。就個人來講的話,這種罰則定了以後,這種做法定了以後,只有縣市幹部讓他更加考慮周延。不會像以前講的,講完一句話就關起來了。講完一句話就五天、八天,不會這樣子。所以剛剛委員給我們建議是很好的。"},{"start":10343.525,"end":10347.166,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10361.107,"end":10385.747,"text":"現在一條條法規定的都是在把幹部弄在一個局限範圍以內,不讓他個人有所偏好而變成一個造詞。這第一個。第二有關於剛剛講的禁足會好像形成霸凌、悔過霸凌。假如今天為了要悔過,怕變成一個霸凌的話,禁足也可以這樣講,你每天罰我戰,那也是個霸凌。"},{"start":10386.668,"end":10415.481,"text":"所以這種種的做法,我想部隊領導統一是個為什麼大學問?幹部把自己的修為弄好了以後,下級不會有什麼反對意見,聽他的。所以我覺得今天任何規範,我一開頭一定尊重法,看大家的意見,但我覺得這是給我們幹部來講的話一個很好的教育,就是讓我們知道考慮事情一定要更加周延,絕對不是一個人講的就算了,一言堂。"},{"start":10416.201,"end":10420.544,"text":"一定要經過大家一個召集開會而這個人員開會的人員都有很好的規範就剛有委員問到一下開會要多久一個禮拜兩個禮拜這不是重點因為這裡面的人員有規定哪些專業人員不是我們軍方自己找的就把它找來了"},{"start":10436.596,"end":10437.696,"text":"草案事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10459.582,"end":10482.027,"text":"所以我很尊重大家意見,我也希望大家給一個規範,而且讓幹部也得到一個很好的教育,對我們幹部來講也是一個很好的教育,我們都樂於接受,謝謝各位。好,謝謝部長。我們剛才有關悔過的部分是因為完全相左的意見,我們先保留。現在有關這一個所謂的罰款的部分,"},{"start":10483.496,"end":10486.897,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10508.204,"end":10528.42,"text":"這一個是幹預部長講的一個重點就是我們訂這個法是讓領導幹部在法的授權內去做而不是在情緒內去做處罰這是這法的目的但是我們如果給他的權限跟現實上比方說我剛才講法款比降級還嚴重他在處理上就會產生我到底要用哪一招來做處理"},{"start":10530.1,"end":10536.402,"text":"馬委員可不可以在第4條你的修正版本上是不是可以讓這個國防部的版本好不好那時候為什麼提20萬他罰50降到20為什麼是20啊"},{"start":10546.289,"end":10547.37,"text":"草案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":10574.94,"end":10577.762,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10597.278,"end":10597.699,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10612.66,"end":10615.301,"text":"事件處理法草案案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10632.967,"end":10654.638,"text":"我跟同仁溝通,列在重大有三個意義。第一個,列在重大的項目要啟動,它的程序比較嚴謹,而不是長官說要啟動啟動,它沒有列在一般的。首先罰5000塊就不會弄到這裡來。第二個,它的救濟程序也會搭配。"},{"start":10655.518,"end":10656.9,"text":"處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10672.276,"end":10676.64,"text":"我們很認同其實我們現在應該要有領導統一的一個好的工具這個部分我們絕對認同可是你在定這個法的時候不要以後衍生更多的問題因為我們看到有一些內容其實以後你並不好執行或者執行起來以後也會有很多的問題這個是我們今天要討論的啦贊成啦贊成我們支持啦所以我會說"},{"start":10697.478,"end":10700.621,"text":"現在這一塊馬委員的修正案跟剛才悔過不一樣因為悔過是有兩個完全不一樣的思維所以那個我沒辦法現在是金額的寫法是寫罰款20萬以上還是寫全新五個月以上其實是描述方式不一樣金額差額其實不大"},{"start":10717.739,"end":10734.331,"text":"那我還是個人建議說是我是支持馬委員的版本是因為對於很多的要想喔就是這麼多的義務義難那年輕人他們在看的時候因為這次我們的這個修法大家都非常的重視那他光是看到就是說重大懲罰20萬以上有多少他們現在可能要當兵的人才18歲看到都嚇尿了"},{"start":10742.077,"end":10747.278,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10771.424,"end":10796.495,"text":"懲罰法目的是希望處罰做錯,嚇阻犯錯所以會怕、會擔心不是一件壞事情就是說懲罰法如果讓他覺得不會怕或者沒有用這個法有沒有用這是一件事情就是說我們反而要嚴謹的是我們反而是嚴謹的在處理違法或違常行為的時候不能濫權"},{"start":10797.816,"end":10800.098,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10813.968,"end":10832.345,"text":"我跟柯委員報告,法款在現行的懲罰法是沒有這個規定的。我們這次之所以要這樣規定,也是第一個,以後如果經過彈劾的人,他是必須要進懲戒法院。那懲戒法院對公務員的懲罰,他是從一萬到一百萬。"},{"start":10833.847,"end":10848.207,"text":"軍人將來有可能還是會被彈劾彈劾進了懲戒法院之後你不能讓懲戒法院沒有這個選項所以說當初把罰款放進來我一度要跟各位報告我們在前面有詢答也有說過罰款它真的主要不是要針對義務役的人"},{"start":10849.949,"end":10876.867,"text":"有些人他已經退伍了之後他可能無心可罰也無職可撤也無主可盡也無情可罰那個時候但是可能發現他犯錯的時候是在服役期間所以說有的時候針對不同的選擇才會有罰款這個相關的一個選項當初其實一個也是要跟將來懲戒法院的一個相關的種類做一個搭配我們已經有考量到說不論是待遇也好或是等等的話所以說我們是從我們的"},{"start":10878.328,"end":10880.47,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10897.805,"end":10899.868,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10913.905,"end":10915.808,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10930.247,"end":10931.508,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10955.086,"end":10956.447,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10981.644,"end":10983.024,"text":"案。二、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":11008.072,"end":11022.683,"text":"所以大家不要一直講到那個部分就是因為這個所謂的黨防協商我們今天這個審完之後送協商就是還是我們的召委來主持第一次的協商我認為不會到那邊去啦"},{"start":11026.386,"end":11028.908,"text":"行政院條目次第5條,徐巧芯版15條,馬文君委員修正案。"},{"start":11049.123,"end":11052.487,"text":"情惡中的違紀行為應受什麼處罰。」我們是先請馬委員說明一下。好,就這一個部分,因為我們當初在104年修訂本法條的時候,已經有充分討論是否要明訂違紀的太陽。那我們現在第5條的第4款裡面,"},{"start":11069.045,"end":11073.467,"text":"其他於執行勤務時之不當行為。」其實這個非常隆重因為你像當時我們就是會希望說你要讓服役的軍人不要因為不了解而犯下錯誤也就是我們所謂的不教而殺為之虐我們當時修這個法的很重要的精神在這裡可是你現在把它定章因為我們希望可以稍微修正一下就是說"},{"start":11097.535,"end":11100.016,"text":"因為你原來是其他於執行勤務時之不當行為,這樣太籠統,我們是不是把它修成其他違私行為違反已送立法院被查或國防部頒訂之法令,因為你有明訂了,大家知道這是錯的,不然你隨便說我說你違紀就違紀,你現在訂了那麼多。"},{"start":11121.548,"end":11137.837,"text":"如果他一樣你覺得還不足那你修啊就在你原來的像送立法院被查或國防部頒訂的這些相關的法令你去修就好了所以這個不要違背我們當初立這個法的這個精神那個馬委員的部分我基本上認同就是說"},{"start":11140.538,"end":11160.258,"text":"比較清楚的什麼樣的情形列在第4條原來的條文是其他於執行情務之不當行為有點像開放授權但是這裡我要特別提我今天開會一開始我請其他相關單位教育部、海巡署、國安局這條跟你們有關係如果"},{"start":11162.385,"end":11178.753,"text":"國防部頒訂之法令認為是情務上的違紀行為在教育部的教官在海巡署的軍官在國安局的軍官處分單位不是國防部但是他的身份是軍人要受這個條文約束所以變成國防部訂的"},{"start":11180.474,"end":11182.957,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":11196.773,"end":11199.236,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":11215.057,"end":11235.474,"text":"但是這個軍人是在教育部的話其實不是國防部處分喔是教育部處分在海巡署海巡處分那我是不是先請教教育部的意見我先講一句話一句話就好了就是因為就是因為這個有在海巡署有在這個教育部所下"},{"start":11236.874,"end":11260.044,"text":"就必須要有一致性一致性的話就是全部照國防部訂的我現在就問他要聽一致性現在國防部的這個海巡署很寬政委員就是說海巡署教育部跟國防部確實是不同的部我知道就是要一致性要依國防部的為什麼呢"},{"start":11261.53,"end":11268.234,"text":"因為現在目前國防部的是最嚴的最嚴格的啦國防部的對志願役的軍人來講"},{"start":11270.628,"end":11296,"text":"影響很大,而現在我們的志願役軍人要遭也很困難。」所以這個部分呢,這會關係到後面的條文。我贊成一致性,但是像翁小林委員是法律專家,我現在問的是,國防部的法令,叫教育部去執行的時候,教育部在法律上的執行上有沒有約束力?"},{"start":11302.881,"end":11324.916,"text":"我簡單跟各位報告一下我跟各位報告一下第5條跟第6條它兩個條文一個是在執勤中一個是在扶勤以外的時間所以說我們自己也看到委員這邊講的第5條委員講的也很有道理啦那其實說真的原來第5條訂的第4款本來就是一個補充我們怕原來有遺漏"},{"start":11325.857,"end":11342.883,"text":"委員如果改成現在這樣子的話當然可以就是其實憑良心講在第一款都已經包含在內了所以說就是執勤當中所有執勤的法令因為現在用的最多的委員您用的這個國防部跟我們所定班的相關的立法院的法規目前是沒有"},{"start":11343.283,"end":11365.737,"text":"國防部定班的法律其實憑良心講就是國軍軍風機維護實施規定那個實施規定他在執行當中的話只要用第一款就可以懲罰了如果委員真的覺得第五條的這個第四款比較概括那我們是建議說是不是我們就把第四款這個拿掉我們把一二三款其實規範的還明確也就可以用了以上報告"},{"start":11366.357,"end":11373.219,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。七、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。八、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":11396.247,"end":11419.395,"text":"其他違紀行為違反國防部或與國防部沒有隸屬關係的服役機關所頒的法令也就是我國防部規定我國防部的同仁你離開服刑期間你違反什麼規定我國防部會頒那教育部也好或是海巡也好或是國安局也好他們去定頒他們相關的法令不就是軍人身份都一起規定就好了嗎"},{"start":11419.855,"end":11446.654,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯"},{"start":11447.595,"end":11463.109,"text":"或是教育部的教官你要做處分的時候要依國防部所定的法令。我贊成了。所以這樣才會一致性。我們現在有相關部會的列席官員。我們是請教育部鄭文堯專委有沒有什麼意見?麥克風要不然我沒辦法做記錄。"},{"start":11471.665,"end":11491.372,"text":"主席各位委員大家好目前教育部是有瑕屬軍訓教官因為軍訓教官也是軍人的身份所以目前我們是希望就是參照國防部現有的相關規定所以我們通過這個你們照執行是沒有問題是我們是不受影響謝謝好 國安局國安局吳副署長你有沒有打開我們這要會議記錄的你要打開"},{"start":11497.839,"end":11498.741,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11510.506,"end":11533.755,"text":"海巡署翁群遠專委海巡報告目前我們的意見是同交易部跟國安局的意見OK那就沒問題所以回到剛才馬文君委員提案我個人贊成這個提案但是剛才省市委司長說那這一條就是拿掉用一二三條來規範還是把馬委員的留著我都OK我覺得都OK看馬委員的意見我支持留馬委員的我先問一下馬委員的意見"},{"start":11540.771,"end":11560.987,"text":"如果可以留,你對其他的違施行為就會報了,你就把它留下來。審事長,這一第4條照馬委員的修正動議通過,你有沒有影響?沒有影響的話,那我們這個第4條的部分,馬委員的修正動議就取代原來的。對,第5條的第4項。"},{"start":11566.041,"end":11589.588,"text":"第15條是徐巧芯委員提出來的所以我這邊就是支持馬委員的版本我可以先發表一下意見嗎這個馬委員的版本其實呢這個是超原來現行條文的第14款的規定那可是我看起來就是說你們現在修正的這個其他違規行為的這個規定會跟"},{"start":11594.99,"end":11611.741,"text":"第一款的規定會重疊,其實事實上沒有太大的意義,也就是說你通過第一款為被逾越法令執行勤務就已經涵蓋了你這邊想要規定的第四款。翁委員講的對啦,其實他第一款就取代原來14款啦。但是我覺得,如果委員認為留著。不是不是,不是這樣。"},{"start":11619.484,"end":11642.297,"text":"這個第一款這個看我們後面的法有沒有參考我的條文來去修會有關係了馬委員所提的就是說要送到立法院被查的第六款第四款要送到立法院被查這有差別因為現在很多的"},{"start":11643.906,"end":11663.376,"text":"國防部現在懲罰的很多的尤其是那個勤務外的行為什麼勤務內的行為很多的處罰都用行政規則了都不是法律不是法律不是說全部到送立法院被查對不是很多都不是很多都是用定要點的了"},{"start":11664.336,"end":11679.701,"text":"他們很多都是定義要點對那個軍人的影響很大這樣好不好因為我們今天這兩本不知道要審到什麼時候第5條的第3項我覺得大家有共識啦那原則上我們就先把馬委員的修正動議通過"},{"start":11681.321,"end":11700.091,"text":"修正同意通過。至於這條文怎麼寫比較完備,我們最後總整理的時候來處理。我們先把精神一下通過啦。報告主委,我們只有一個意見,就是第5條照馬委員的版本,我們只建議就是其他違施行為改成違紀行為。因為我們這整個法都會把它變成違紀。自此改成違紀行為。"},{"start":11702.532,"end":11715.036,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具第5條的馬文君委員修正案及徐巧芯委員提案的第15條,我們併案處理以馬文君委員的修正動議通過,但為失改為繼。第6條有馬文君委員的提案,是馬文君委員先說明。"},{"start":11734.04,"end":11735.823,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":11746.946,"end":11749.768,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":11765.637,"end":11768.421,"text":"結果因為幫太太去送Fu Panda結果他就被汰除而且他汰除他19年的那個那個退縫對,那個都沒了"},{"start":11779.824,"end":11783.886,"text":"這個誰敢來當兵啊你今天如果說因為你過去你基於戰訓本務或者像這樣因為你的那個時機點都已經不一樣了所以我們希望可以做比較明確的不得兼任違反社會善良風俗之職業或差事因為你們要定你們會定說兼職或經營商業其實我覺得你只要不違反社會善良風俗因為你們上一次是因為那個"},{"start":11809.275,"end":11810.356,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查"},{"start":11832.657,"end":11833.438,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11850.76,"end":11875.281,"text":"第七條我們就不再討論了啦因為剛才已經大概有共識了就比照剛才就是那個其他維持行為第六條第七款第七款第六條的七款我們就不用討論了就照前一個案子來方式來處理國防部這部分也沒有爭議了啦我們到第六條的部分因為第六條的原來的版本是不能兼職不能營商這個是我相信軍人大概長期來都是這樣不可以"},{"start":11875.461,"end":11889.308,"text":"不過你第6條裡面他也是說為依法令兼職或經營商業所以他原來寫的是為依法令的兼職或經營商業什麼叫依法令?比方說軍人有時候是依法要去兼職的他要兼任職務的這是一個討論就是說"},{"start":11895.007,"end":11899.293,"text":"不得兼任違反社會善良風俗之職業或差事的意思。"},{"start":11906.704,"end":11907.885,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":11939.632,"end":11963.345,"text":"衛醫法令兼職或經營商業如果是馬委員的這個相關的方式的話確實就字面解釋起來的話就不違反善良風俗就可以去兼職這個是比較對我們現行的政策來講是比較可能跟我們現行來講的話對軍人的身份特性也不一樣重便他可以下班回家但是我們還有緊急召回或者緊急任務要他"},{"start":11964.145,"end":11969.48,"text":"立刻回到營區的時候,他也不能說我現在正在做什麼其他事。我知道委員擔心的是,我們簡單講,"},{"start":11972.179,"end":11983.126,"text":"徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。"},{"start":12003.14,"end":12030.631,"text":"國軍監職規定,我們會做一個重新的檢診,我們也已經跟人事部門做過兩次的討論,將來這個東西我們會定,我們也問了全巡部,我們可能會用職權命令的方式來定,會定一個國軍到底是怎麼樣的情況,譬如說監課是允許的,有一些就像剛才趙薇講的,依法令要做的一些監職,或是其他那些東西,有些東西是要允許的,但是可能就沒有辦法大到說只要不違反善良風俗等等都會做,"},{"start":12031.451,"end":12034.934,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":12061.275,"end":12086.142,"text":"我們先聽一下其他委員意見洪山委員再來林楚英委員再來曾天才委員來洪委員請我想請問比方說這一條就是其實我剛有跟馬委員也有點相似的疑問比方說如果是一個義務役那我在義務役我放假的時候我回家比方說我家裡如果開一個小吃店"},{"start":12089.104,"end":12097.714,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":12108.295,"end":12124.148,"text":"這會有喔,其實現在很多他學生時期其實就在做這種直播的事情喔,那這算不算?我就說這個邊界在什麼地方?我是覺得在這個條文上面會不會要另一個執法來去做更細緻的規定?這裡面會產生蠻多模糊地帶的,這部分我也想請教國防部"},{"start":12129.272,"end":12131.794,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12152.12,"end":12175.93,"text":"我的意見當然就跟馬委員、深海委員都一樣只是說我會認為國防部現在所講的就是未依法令那麼現在就是這個法令到底是什麼法令必須定出來不然的話就是國防部必須回答軍人就是完全不能兼職那這個部分其他委員講了我就不多做贅述就是所謂如果說是國防部的版本未依法規那是哪一個法規"},{"start":12176.63,"end":12177.51,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12196.006,"end":12212.156,"text":"這個軍人非執行勤務而有下列勤務質疑者這樣的一個人因為我其實我不會很在意那個EWE因為他一下子就回去了通常也不會做很大處分的"},{"start":12212.856,"end":12239.238,"text":"我更在意的就是職業軍人職業的這些軍人怎麼樣讓他能夠確保繼續捍衛我們的國家我重視的是這個部分所以我剛剛有幾例那個刑事法第一款故意觸犯刑事法例那個太多樣了全部都要重大處罰這個部分因為你只有排除第七款了"},{"start":12239.977,"end":12245.501,"text":"行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查"},{"start":12269.11,"end":12274.292,"text":"審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、"},{"start":12289.671,"end":12294.175,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12312.438,"end":12315.867,"text":"你同意是嗎?我沒有意見,我們綜合討論,但是你們兩個條文有不一樣沒有沒有,我來說明"},{"start":12321.776,"end":12349.488,"text":"這第一款到第七款還是要增加款我沒有意見我只是說這些要怎麼處理我不會處理我只是提醒一下就是說你們兩邊的提案的文字在條文上有一些我們融合處理我會綜合處理我尊重那個馬委員前面的第七款要修第六款要修我都可以接受我只是多一項你多了那個懲罰處分標準國防定制對我只是多一項而且我刪除了那個"},{"start":12350.248,"end":12372.079,"text":"只有第七款行為是不得為重大處懲罰。」我刪除那個部分,為什麼呢?把這個標準到底是要記過,還是要記大過,還是要繪過,還是要做罰款,就定在法規命令裡面。好,謝謝鄭委員。羅美玲委員完,再來是翁小玲委員,來。"},{"start":12374.281,"end":12375.382,"text":"公務人員服務法第15條第1項及第2項著作文之修正。"},{"start":12399.278,"end":12414.254,"text":"處法令規定外不得兼任領證職業及其他彷彿從事同種類行為之業務,但由於法定工作時間之外從事社會公益性質之活動或其他非經常性持續性之工作,"},{"start":12415.515,"end":12439.759,"text":"我想問一下剛剛我所提到公務人員的這個服務法的這個所謂的非經常性持續性之工作且未影響本職工作者不在此限是不是就可以解決了剛剛這個洪宣漢委員所說的如果說家裡開小吃店我休假我回去然後呢我在家裡幫忙那這算不算是非經常性持續性之工作請問一下待會我們再一併處理那翁曉琳委員"},{"start":12444.434,"end":12446.115,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12473.536,"end":12474.757,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12496.634,"end":12521.991,"text":"只要是不違反善良風俗的事。」那這是我們認為說作為一個國家的一個軍人他就有這麼樣的一個榮譽的身份他難道對於他的在刑務外的這樣的一個行為不應該以更高的標準去要求嗎?所以我基本上是支持這個行政院院板的未依法令的堅持"},{"start":12524.001,"end":12541.98,"text":"這個部分的話是合乎這個我們對於這個軍人的要求但是對於經營商業的部分這是超出現在公務員員服務法裡面的其他的規定這個有沒有必要說特別講經營商業其實會以法令兼職是不是就可以涵蓋"},{"start":12544.362,"end":12545.843,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12572.961,"end":12573.108,"text":"處理法草案 案。"},{"start":12574.506,"end":12576.046,"text":"處理法草案案。五、國防部必須更新國軍人員兼職辦法"},{"start":12605.151,"end":12628.715,"text":"民國94年的國軍人員兼職辦法,那裏面就可以處理我們蓋獎的問題,家裏小支部回家幫個忙,那時候我之前還處理一個他家裏在祁山做貨運行的,等一塞幾座會車就被記過了,這確實有些不盡人情,那因為國軍人員兼職辦法是一個行政命令,民國94年訂的老舊了,我們現在年輕人清創啊,清農啊,他家裏做農場他回去拔個蘿蔔那你要罰他嗎,我建議"},{"start":12632.957,"end":12646.593,"text":"我們這個條文這樣寫是對的我們不能讓國軍可以隨意帶貨直播啊什麼這個不好啦但是我們在國軍人員兼職辦法我們要求本法實施之前"},{"start":12647.994,"end":12652.497,"text":"國防部必須提出更新版的國軍人員兼職辦法,必須報本委員會。"},{"start":12664.775,"end":12666.157,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":12683.738,"end":12694.451,"text":"未依法令兼職或經營商業。」這個不行但是我們在立法要職上要求在本法執行之前國防部必須提出更新版的國軍人員兼職辦法這樣來處理這條文好不好"},{"start":12697.796,"end":12712.374,"text":"再補充一句,另外也可以在未來的修法理由裏面可以再加上就排除那種非常態性的這個這個臨時工作那個辦法那個辦法可以把它寫清楚寫在那裏面我覺得那個辦法就可以與時俱進來列了那個沈會員"},{"start":12715.377,"end":12716.238,"text":"我贊成國軍跟公教不一樣的定性,責任也重大。"},{"start":12739.4,"end":12761.378,"text":"第6條,是不是就以本席剛才的宣誓來做通過?對,其實是按照馬委員,但是我把它用原條文然後加了一個他要更新這一個堅持辦法"},{"start":12762.925,"end":12788.49,"text":"因為不是兼職而已啊我剛講的比如說一個臨時停車被處罰要記過一次這是很重的所以這個部分是必須要定我一開始前面講的刑事案件啊非常的多樣我講了因為我們職業軍人啊原住民職業軍人這樣的比例很高20%"},{"start":12791.004,"end":12803.785,"text":"我們很多的土地被化為國有土地然後被告竊贊竊贊就判刑了然後他就要重大懲罰了"},{"start":12805.52,"end":12806.701,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":12826.042,"end":12829.406,"text":"那你把那個前項第7款,你講的是第7款啦沒有沒有沒有全部全部的標準由國防部定制啊對啊對啊,國防部定制,他本來就要定制他本來就要定啊我把他提高為法規命令那個沈市長,加這一句你的意見"},{"start":12843.44,"end":12851.762,"text":"提高違法規命令的位階才是正辦的。我們是要保障這個職業軍人,所以我們要保障的是職業軍人。」"},{"start":12864.585,"end":12871.189,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。七、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。八、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。九、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":12890.94,"end":12912.656,"text":"應該要比一個低階的士兵或是士官開車操作重。」我只是先舉這個例子一樣的行為在不同的人在做或是怎麼樣或是相同的行為那個規範會規範不完所以我們才會跟委員報告我們國防部都會能夠定基準的我們就定譬如說酒駕國防部有定定一個懲罰的基準原則上就照著那個來"},{"start":12913.436,"end":12915.717,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查"},{"start":12931.562,"end":12931.842,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12954.163,"end":12979.347,"text":"審判基準判決案件,例如酒駕、良性淫規、兼職等,能定的我們都會定,大家會照著那個來做。至於委員剛剛您舉的那個例子,我也反對。我反對懲罰,就是臨時停車還要記過一次,我也覺得怪怪的,但我沒有看到那個案例。或許將來透過比較完善的救濟制度,我覺得這個東西會改,如果說今天已經"},{"start":12980.007,"end":13000.989,"text":"違反交通規則闖紅燈被開了個罰單回到營區之後還要再給他計個過我覺得這個不適當這個不適當但我沒有看到那個個案啦那如果現在有這種個案的話我認為透過救濟這種行為他都可以救濟啊救濟我覺得應該會救濟成功好那個政委員我再一句話就好了好一句話給你因為他談了很多酒駕沒有他剛剛有講酒駕嗎有有有"},{"start":13005.727,"end":13034.062,"text":"有訂酒駕,光你這個酒駕的基準,就是需要檢討。第一個,酒駕,它已經依道路交通管理處罰條例去處理了。該罰的、該罰的、該怎麼樣的,都有了。要不要那麼重?現在部隊酒駕是太粗了。不是,情務外,是到銀漆外,它已經有一個案例,它就住在銀漆附近而已啦。"},{"start":13035.165,"end":13050.756,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":13051.881,"end":13055.865,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":13077.483,"end":13078.884,"text":"二、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":13093.914,"end":13099.436,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。"},{"start":13123.744,"end":13127.251,"text":"二、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":13137.324,"end":13140.368,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審查：一、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":13156.063,"end":13172.076,"text":"政務委員聽我說啦政務委員你的部分我要處理啦我不要把他寫在罰裡面要不然將來真的會有問題變成我沒有表列都不能罰了這很怪我們是不是請國防部把他的評定的標準現在已經有整理出來的提供一份給您給我們兩個委員會的委員"},{"start":13173.757,"end":13176.98,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。七、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。八、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":13202.622,"end":13217.033,"text":"第二、有關目前就相關的非執行勤務的違紀行為的處罰,請國防部提供一份你們目前訂定的基準標準給與會委員做參考並給予建言。"},{"start":13225.67,"end":13233.256,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":13244.926,"end":13251.809,"text":"事件處理法草案案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案"},{"start":13269.894,"end":13297.602,"text":"跟各位同仁報告,我們盡量今天看能不能處理完明天就大家鼠籠剛胸了所以我們今天會開比較長的時間有關第6條的部分本期再宣告一次第6條的部分按照院版通過但是請國防部在今天散會前擬出一個附帶決議叫更新你們那個叫國軍人員監職條例監職辦法是不是"},{"start":13300.859,"end":13304.463,"text":"審事長,你們那個全名叫什麼?更新國軍人員兼職辦"},{"start":13311.585,"end":13330.359,"text":"國軍人員不得在外兼職兼拆規定。」請你們把這個規定更新而且我建議用正面的你不得會變成沒有寫到通通可以我不認為我們司令有那麼周延正面的那包含洪森委員提到的什麼新創的行業啦或者在家裡幫忙啦"},{"start":13330.959,"end":13334.62,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":13355.289,"end":13368.437,"text":"第10條,馬文君委員、翁曉琳委員都有提修正,有遠而近。先請翁曉琳委員說明。"},{"start":13384.2,"end":13389.742,"text":"我在這邊很快的就我這裡所提出的修正動議向各位說明在第10條第2項針對長官所下達的命令若違反刑事法律者然後處正當行使武力之情形外軍人無服從義務"},{"start":13406.107,"end":13426.976,"text":"那麼因為對於什麼樣的情況叫做屬於正當行使武力之情形我認為不應該這麼模糊啦給這個長官有過大的一個解釋空間所以我建議要加兩個字就是依法它必須要是依法屬於正當行使武力的情形那麼"},{"start":13431.363,"end":13450.261,"text":"那明知該命令違反刑事法律且非依法屬正當刑事武力之情形而人執行者就應受處罰。總之就是要將正當刑事武力的情形必須要把它法制化明文化不能夠讓長官有過多的這個行政裁量權好那個法律師"},{"start":13455.051,"end":13456.192,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":13470.969,"end":13482.656,"text":"就這個部分因為軍人的工作其實不只是在訓練上面的部分而已他甚至還有一些依據政策指導或者像採購或者還有簽程等等其實這些都涵蓋在內那如果說長官在認為沒有違法的情況之下"},{"start":13494.722,"end":13499.447,"text":"在這一部分我認為應該要下達書面命令因為你說那未來其實衍生的責任由長官複製可是你沒有任何的證據啊所以就這個部分我們認為如果像你要下達類似這樣的命令應該要用書面因為我們看到很多我們接到很多很多的陳情比如說那個有什麼樣的裝備"},{"start":13518.826,"end":13525.428,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事"},{"start":13546.696,"end":13573.272,"text":"所有的事情層層把關然後可以有效的去執行不要讓下面的人去承擔這樣的責任那也有依據啦所以我們還是希望可以做一些文字的修正剛才翁曉琳委員的文字修正會更嚴謹這個是OK現在馬文君委員的修正部分變成是如果口頭命令沒有下達書面命令的話就適同收回命令喔"},{"start":13574.933,"end":13602.383,"text":"那個是不是這個意思就是說馬委員我先確認一下就是說我在我的職務範圍內長官下達命令如果認為沒有違法以書面下達軍人要服從那如果長官非以書面下達命令軍人可以請求長官你書面為之那長官拒絕的話適同撤回其命令這意思是說口頭命令你如果沒有轉成書面的話這口頭命令就無效"},{"start":13603.883,"end":13606.045,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":13625.481,"end":13641.761,"text":"那我對於文字的細節呢沒有特別的看法但本質上我理解馬文君委員的意見是支持的因為有的時候如果長官他下的命令是違法的那衍生的相關責任那不應該跟懲罰是有關"},{"start":13643.022,"end":13660.337,"text":"所以我們希望就是說如果今天長官他下了違法的命令那我們的基層士兵他是不是有一個機會他能夠在整個過程當中他不受到相關的懲罰那只要是能夠合於這樣子的一個想法的文字我都可以支持謝謝"},{"start":13661.34,"end":13673.251,"text":"審議《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。七、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。八、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":13687.051,"end":13702.576,"text":"合法可以執行的命令這個沒有爭議違法你明知違法不可以執行的譬如說聯黨叫你去偷隔壁人的東西不可以你就算偷了不管他給你書面你也要負責違法不能做的也就不能做現在唯一有爭議的就是說長官叫你做然後"},{"start":13703.616,"end":13725.329,"text":"如果不修的話在實務上面容易產生就是說部署只要一質疑一質疑的時候有的時候那個命令不是大家坐在辦公桌上下命令我今天帶你到野外去可能有遇到一些什麼狀況給你下命令如果你來給我質疑質疑完了之後我拿不出書面這個就沒有辦法執行或是說我今天不給那將來等於是命令要撤回我們"},{"start":13726.309,"end":13728.573,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":13742.273,"end":13765.407,"text":"譬如我們講有士兵他們要對於長官來講有的他是可以挑戰因為他可能只有四個月一年他就離開了他因為直接公務員他們會要書面其實那個在職場上壓力那另外一回事如果長官叫我排除我說對不起我說那可能毀損我說搞不好會有其他違反相關的法令我不做那長官還得回去寫個書面寫個書面才能繼續往下做"},{"start":13766.127,"end":13767.808,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":13782.535,"end":13801.527,"text":"同仁給基層的同仁給他科與更多的義務沒有當初的要動這一條的主要的目的就是說如果合法可行的命令本來大家就照做大部分絕大99%的命令都是這一種如果違法不可以做的你就算長官給你書面你也不能做只是在中間有疑慮的時候這邊講的就是長官負責"},{"start":13803.388,"end":13805.909,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":13822.219,"end":13826.821,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13846.249,"end":13869.961,"text":"那現在就是說在第10條我個人是建議是照院版他比較符合現況的運用但如果說我們認為說如果沒有書面下達命令軍我下屬說長官你要下字條否則我不執行這個樣態好不好我建議各位同仁思考一下思考一下來徐委員"},{"start":13870.862,"end":13894.361,"text":"我提問一個問題就是書不書面其實我不是這麼在乎但是對於如果長官下達的命令那他是不是應該要在這個法律裡面規定他必須要先知道自己未違法呢我覺得因為馬偉偉你這邊有講到嘛就是說該管長官如任其命令未違法那軍人即應服從"},{"start":13895.302,"end":13907.166,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯"},{"start":13925.68,"end":13928.842,"text":"審柏洋委員提動議審柏洋委員提動議審柏洋委員提動議審柏洋委員提動議審柏洋委員提動議審柏洋委員提動議審柏洋委員提動議"},{"start":13959.18,"end":13970.288,"text":"有意見我們要不要我們還是還是可以延長一些時間但是不是不是不要到不要用玩具這樣好不好我們先這樣子好我"},{"start":13975.228,"end":14002.689,"text":"其實最辛苦的條文都在前面我們這一次是深水區在前面後面還好這樣好不好我也不寫審查完略我們先延長時間到晚上8點這樣好不好我用時間到5點半吧5點半就不用提這個案了本來就到5點半這是延長討論就不要影響到大家的我們可以提案延長開會這是常態就是說我們現在可是我們也可以提議"},{"start":14003.89,"end":14026.167,"text":"當然當然我們現在在討論嘛我們是不是省到8點如果省到8點可以完成那明天就不用開了嘛我們就結束了那如果省到8點沒有完明天就再繼續開啦我覺得就分兩天開吧大家這樣子品質比較好啊來各位表達意見我們本來的議程就是兩天為什麼要這麼急回去還可以再慢慢再看一次明天繼續討論啊"},{"start":14034.307,"end":14034.809,"text":"只要超過5點半就要提延長"},{"start":14038.134,"end":14064.276,"text":"到今天各位提我沒有意見我陪你們不好意思我不太同意的原因是因為我覺得我們本來的排案就是排兩天那也不需要說今天忙著審完然後明天就沒有那我也覺得就是說這個案子大家討論的那麼細緻那提案的品質也很重要那有一些有一些爭議的地方我們今天晚上回去大家也都還可以想想或許明天也會有突破性的發展"},{"start":14064.616,"end":14065.437,"text":"處理法草案案 案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":14075.197,"end":14088.324,"text":"其實國防部也看到了就是每個委員有提出一些修正動議請你們回去也study一下到底哪些是你們堅持不能接受的哪些是你們可以接受這樣的話也可以加速明天的討論堅持通常不會加速不要到7點7點還要買便當還要浪費錢對不對就到6點啦浪費電對現在"},{"start":14096.809,"end":14097.77,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14113.064,"end":14114.986,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":14132.154,"end":14153.466,"text":"我們通常喜歡巧克力盒前面先吃後面盒子留少一點但是OK尊重大家意見我們開到6點了好不好6點了我們依立法院議事規則第27號規定我們延長開會至6點那便當就不要買了吧不用了不用浪費錢了你們已經買了已經買了"},{"start":14154.913,"end":14161.635,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14171.277,"end":14186.638,"text":"我們在部隊的當下可能是排長帶班長或班長帶兵我在下命令的時候兵可不可以挑戰說你認不認為這合法合法你要下個條子這在部隊運作上會不會有問題就是說我們部隊是個訓練的紀律部隊"},{"start":14188.941,"end":14209.283,"text":"長官交付的任務跟他的任務範圍其實是有個框定的我守這個海岸線就海岸線我看這個雷達螢幕就雷達螢幕所以99%以上的口頭命令大概都是Lofo都是合法的一個命令但我們現在如果這個寫上去之後會變成會有一個兵某一個兵他會告訴你長官你不下條子我不動"},{"start":14210.657,"end":14217.28,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":14232.022,"end":14247.354,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草"},{"start":14261.601,"end":14279.015,"text":"那所以這邊的話是不是要寫,就是要不要有第三人?那個是我跟委方的實際上的問題了。微常的情形,坦白講我們部隊也沒有那麼差啦,微常是少數。正常的狀況下,比如說我剛才跟陳永康委員我們在聊,比如說我們在,像我在飛機上嘛。"},{"start":14280.396,"end":14282.678,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14303.683,"end":14308.813,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14313.67,"end":14326.561,"text":"確保大家都可以互相舉證,部隊在運作上變成輸出要下條子。」這個我們講實際上真的有困難啊。我完全理解,只是說在申訴的過程當中,它是要有證據、要有證明。那我只是講說,這個軍中過去這麼多年來,一定常常會遇到這樣的狀況,那怎麼樣能夠保存,就是對於這種說服口頭命令,它認為它是明顯違法。這參考啦,我看過的情形是說,部隊是集體生活啦。"},{"start":14341.755,"end":14344.779,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14350.785,"end":14374.215,"text":"我還看過一個案子是在輪機裡面,就只有3個人。對,這種都是個案啦,因為多數不會發生這個情形,多數下的命令業務那個都固定的。就發生不合理的情形的時候,第一種情形,像陸軍是集體生活,他調查是查得出來的。另外一種是,長官下給我,我一個上位,那上面一個上校下個命令給我,就我們兩個人而已。"},{"start":14376.214,"end":14398.634,"text":"將來監察或者相關去調查的時候這要花點心力但我的意思是說總會有遇到因為案子不是每件案子都能查啦但我意思是說我們這個條文定下去會不會讓部隊的運作就利弊之間我們要權衡一下我不否認有些案子確實舉證會有困難一定會有但是這個定下去會不會有運作上困難我覺得國防部可以多表達一些意見對"},{"start":14404.544,"end":14406.007,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14417.475,"end":14440.537,"text":"有些案子可能會不好舉證,但是我們這次像連調查上面,我們都有把調查專章,我們都寫了很多的條文,這個可以查出來的。我今天接到一個不合理的命令或是什麼,我出來我可能我就,他就算沒有當場聽到,我出來我可能我就跟人家講,說剛剛長官怎麼叫我這樣弄,這個不能。調查的時候,我是覺得這個可以查出來。如果都要用書面,確實是會比較困難啦。"},{"start":14443.46,"end":14449.767,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14460.818,"end":14467.743,"text":"你現在全部把它推翻掉的那個那個意義或概念是什麼因為剛剛說你在即使在密室或什麼你可以去調查很難我如果出來我跟你說剛剛那個徐巧芯打我那他不是他講你不是聽他講你聽的是我講的啊所以我覺得那很難我們現在你正常的兵或正常的部署不會隨便抗命"},{"start":14485.836,"end":14489.619,"text":"這是正常的,就是你指揮說他應該要去做什麼事情一般的常態性的事物我覺得都沒有問題可是如果要下達書面命令是比較特殊的狀況就是你的要求可能讓大家覺得違法或不合理的情況之下才會有這種狀況我現在沒有說叫你去把那個無人機如果真的要打下來你就應該要把它打下來這個是軍人的職責"},{"start":14512.897,"end":14517.901,"text":"這個部分我們都沒有意見可是你過去為什麼要把它修成用書面它一定有它的條件在那現在這樣的條件沒了或者它有什麼樣的問題那如果有這樣的問題你應該要去做修正可是我們要怎麼樣保障我覺得這才是重點因為它不會常常發生這不是常態發生的事情"},{"start":14535.836,"end":14562.49,"text":"其實你說他不是常態發生嗎?我也有點質疑因為我們看到院版的第10條那他說軍人對權責長官職務下達的命令有服從之義務如果認為該命令違法應向權責長官表示意見那就我知道的基層軍官在這裡就已經不敢了啦我們今天在這裡的都是長官所以大家不會這麼覺得但是問題是基層的官兵就已經不敢了"},{"start":14562.99,"end":14579.724,"text":"那該長官於撤回命令前軍人仍應服從那當然也沒有後面了那因其所產生之責任由長官負責那長官當然也不用負責了所以我覺得這是一個軍中的長期的一個文化所以我比較同意朝偉剛剛講到的就是說我們在這個第10條應該是要努力講說不是說"},{"start":14586.249,"end":14606.721,"text":"要向權責長官表示意見而是他有沒有一個能夠舉證跟申訴的管道讓他們不要只能向權責長官表達意見但是最後他可能要必須被迫做一些說不定也不到違法但是呢已經很邊界灰色地帶的事因為我們說真的作為明代接到很多來自基層軍官的陳情都是類似的情況"},{"start":14615.847,"end":14616.307,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14625.373,"end":14649.713,"text":"第10條,他的前提是軍人對於這個權責長官下的命令他認為違法,所以這個是在有爭議的少數現象而不是我們正常的勤務運作我認為違法我怕死無對證,你要給我下個字條否則告訴你我做的跟你無關,大概是這個用意我們是不是在第一段,該館長官認為請命令並違法而以書面下達時,軍人即應服從"},{"start":14657.394,"end":14665.38,"text":"前向情形災傳長官非以書面下達命令的軍人得請求請以書面為之。該館長官拒絕時視為撤回其命令。"},{"start":14675.289,"end":14679.87,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":14700.436,"end":14727.386,"text":"根據那個行為我們就比較好調查說當時他講要你下執照可能比較堅信真實因為我怕下了第二段畢竟說你沒有下我就不執行有時候那個戰機一過就過了無人機就飛走了你懂我的意思嗎我的意思是說你前面那段紅字留著就是說我認為這個有這個命令違法請長官以書面下達你書面下達我就服從了那以後責任就清楚了後面那段也不用寫了"},{"start":14728.366,"end":14734.251,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。"},{"start":14758.209,"end":14785.534,"text":"同意寧綱大多數的說法,但是有沒有可能就是說大家討論一下就是說前項情形在第二段那個紅色那邊那軍人得請求以書面為之那該長官拒絕時那比方說後續責任由該長官負之類似這樣子的做法那個其實在第一段就處理了因為這裡有牽涉到"},{"start":14787.372,"end":14790.334,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14802.961,"end":14806.183,"text":"處理法條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":14830.24,"end":14845.23,"text":"對保留前面後面拿掉我這樣講只是我剛才聽了各位意見的想法我不知道部裡面大家思考怎麼樣因為這個其實有時候一萬年用一次可那一次萬一沒有處理好就出問題了那個部長或者是市長這邊有沒有意見我剛才建議這樣折衝"},{"start":14847.492,"end":14876.613,"text":"對,因為我很怕說兵有合法抗命的情形那這個會出大事情好不好我們第10條謝謝那個馬委員我們是不是做局部修正就是軍人對權責長官職務範圍內下達之命令有服從之義務如認為該命令違法應向權責長官表示意見該管長官如認為其命令並未違法而以書面下達時軍人即應服從其因此所產生之"},{"start":14877.313,"end":14892.666,"text":"之責任由該長官賦之。」後面這個就不要了這樣子好不好OK好那我們就這樣子第10條了謝謝各位接下來處理的是院版第12條剛才第10條翁委員也有修正案對翁委員修正案通過了我們剛才有同意他的寫法"},{"start":14907.588,"end":14910.009,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":14926.878,"end":14930.841,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14955.814,"end":14967.96,"text":"被查未來持續配合公務員服務法事實修正。二、請國防部提供現行有關非勤務上違紀行為之懲罰基準相關規定,供本院外交國防委員會參酌。"},{"start":14982.816,"end":14987.178,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具徐巧芯等20人擬具徐巧芯等20人擬具徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":15013.462,"end":15020.972,"text":"如果沒有特殊意見我們是照院版通過啦如果學院有意見有有有我有意見我只是有翻頁困難症我們在這個"},{"start":15026.26,"end":15030.124,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":15044.139,"end":15047.803,"text":"涉嫌犯罪者所屬單位應該針對為事情節作出行政調查報告,並且事情節針對相關事證作副本保留,避免偵查不公開因素影響該單位及上級權責單位對於案件過程有誤認或無法釐清之模糊空間。"},{"start":15065.143,"end":15088.798,"text":"提案裏面有多了一項是在關於前項涉犯罪者所屬部隊應同時進行行政調查。倘若調查有必要,相關市政經營單位主管同意後得作副本存查。也就是說呢,因為現在大家都還蠻常討論就是行政調查跟司法調查這兩件事情經常會有"},{"start":15090.199,"end":15100.744,"text":"庫應該要有衝突的,但是經常會有衝突,那我們希望在這個法律裡面可以做一個清楚的規範,讓未來在行政調查上面我們有法源的依據,以上。"},{"start":15104.228,"end":15104.848,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":15121.816,"end":15125.298,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":15144.409,"end":15149.375,"text":"處理法草案案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":15163.26,"end":15177.783,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":15192.546,"end":15199.894,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。七、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。八、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":15215.109,"end":15217.89,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":15235.239,"end":15251.877,"text":"明明可以做行政調查,但是卻以偵查不公開為由而沒有了行政調查。」這樣子的一個情況。所以希望說既然我們今天要修法,就把行政調查法…沒有,學員應該提的,我問一下,如果把它的文字改成相關事證經"},{"start":15255.08,"end":15281.762,"text":"檢察官同意後得作副本審查,會不會比較周延一點?因為其實權限不在主觀啦,是在檢察官那邊啦,這樣可以啦我跟委員報告,現在都是這樣做其實你現在寫條文是現場實務,沒關係他把它明確化啦,他要求存副本啦實務歸實務,但是你們沒有入法的時候,我經常問了老半天都沒有法務部跟司法院都在這裡,法務部有沒有意見?法官"},{"start":15283.899,"end":15288.341,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具徐巧芯等20人擬具徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":15308.812,"end":15334.274,"text":"在院版的《修正草案》第二節《刑事偵查是禁核立法理由》裏面已經說了本法在98年1月21日修正公佈實行後也已經採《刑審並行》原則了那麼《憲刑法》的第30條第三項規定同一為之行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止懲罰程序所以事實上目前來講的話按照我們現行的法律制度本來就是應該是刑審並行"},{"start":15335.955,"end":15356.209,"text":"所以他的這個前段文字其實是等於說重複規定因為現行本來就應該這樣做他不這樣做的話其實是現在法律就已經寫了對現在法律就是這樣所以那個前段不是不是就在我們這個懲罰法懲罰法裡面有懲罰法裡面重複寫了懲罰法請委員可以參考第30條第三項現行法"},{"start":15357.79,"end":15359.732,"text":"本法在98年1月21日修正公佈施行後以採行程並行原則。"},{"start":15382.762,"end":15410.84,"text":"不過這裡的話就是涉及到那個相關的行政調查的證據如果說是檢察官那邊他有的話他可以同時那個副本的問題那個是後段接下來接下來請說明剛剛報告是關於前段的部分那現在我在跟各位委員報告關於後段的部分就是關於刑事偵查程序與軍人懲罰程序在競合的時候請各位可以參考看到院版修正的院版的修正草案第44條"},{"start":15413.429,"end":15437.995,"text":"可以參考院版修正草案第44條有規定說法律專業人員依本節規定偵查這案件終結前任有將偵查所的證據資料移送權責長官辦理懲罰是必要時應報刑檢案官同意後行之。那麼這個規定跟行政法法第26條第一項行事程序優先原則是相符的而且依照院版修正草案第42條跟第43條條文的規定"},{"start":15441.276,"end":15455.113,"text":"軍事法律專業人員於非暫時應受檢察官指揮協助執行刑事偵查事務,所以也必須要受到刑事訴訟法第245條所規定偵查不公開原則的規範。又參考我們現行的政府資訊公開法第18條第一項第二款,"},{"start":15460.239,"end":15465.902,"text":"公開或提供有礙犯罪之偵查、追訴、執行或足以妨害刑事被告、受公正之裁判或有危害他人生命、身體、自由、財產者。"},{"start":15487.111,"end":15509.494,"text":"依照院版的修正草案條文跟現行的規定來講的話,在兩者競合的時候,依照院版修正草案44條的規範,法律專業人員任由將偵查所得的證據資料移送權責檢察官辦理懲罰必要時,應報請檢察官同意後行之,因此與案件相關的書證文件應如何處置保管。"},{"start":15510.154,"end":15514.499,"text":"以由負責承辦之檢察官決定,較符合現行法制之規定。」"},{"start":15527.954,"end":15554.791,"text":"依照修正草案44條的規定,若有必要報請檢察官,44條就有規定了。所以說後段,謝謝你參事啦。交委,我講一下,因為呢,因為我們還沒有審到後面,然後主要為什麼我會把這條寫在前面的原因是因為我後面從42條開始一直往後有一大段我個人都是反對的,所以才會把它寫在前面。徐委員,這樣好不好?你的思考是對的。"},{"start":15555.672,"end":15570.744,"text":"那剛才這個林參事他已經告訴你條文已經涵蓋你的用意了那我們方向一致就好了是不是我們就用院版的條文因為他那樣的寫法符合現行而且也符合你的要旨沒有但是因為昭偉我會有一個問題就是說因為我到後面40幾條之後就是說他剛剛講的那幾條我後面我有我的反對意見但我們還沒有"},{"start":15579.25,"end":15580.65,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":15597.655,"end":15616.717,"text":"對阿我關於檢察官的部分我全部都刪除阿這是我個人的意見但是我檢察官這邊全部刪除阿我有很多的我有非常多的理由所以我才把所謂的行政調查為什麼我要寫在這裡的原因所以如果我在這條我重了院版的話那我後面的就全部那個"},{"start":15618.018,"end":15641.108,"text":"凌晨式的意見是已經涵蓋了你原來要處理的要旨但因為你牽涉到後面的條文我們這是第12條了第12條先保留到後面一併來做處理然後再來第13條有翁曉琳委員的修正動議來請說明"},{"start":15645.017,"end":15660.265,"text":"我這裡只是提一個很簡單的一個字的修正因為在我們一般的法律用語上面通常都是減輕期刑或減輕懲罰可是在院版裡面都是叫重新懲罰我不太瞭解為什麼要做這樣的一個變動 請說明"},{"start":15666.932,"end":15688.1,"text":"謝謝委員我們當初在討論的時候減輕我們是認為說原來有一個定的一個基準然後才有減那重輕的話就因為現在還沒有懲罰還沒有懲罰還不曉得他要給他什麼樣的一個程度所以我們是後來有學者專家提出重輕但我們認為說不論重輕也好減輕也好只要我也知道委員的意思那委員現在要這樣調整我們國防部沒有意見"},{"start":15688.78,"end":15691.823,"text":"案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案 案。"},{"start":15712.633,"end":15716.075,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件"},{"start":15739.127,"end":15754.329,"text":"不是啦我是說院版的42到45條因為我是刪除的嘛我提案是刪除的嘛所以我正確講法是他的提案沒有那些條文啦他不是提案刪除徐巧芯委員的版本沒有那些條文"},{"start":15754.79,"end":15779.996,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉我我沒有對對對我我是沒有那些條文的嗎所以我把相關的比如說像是權責長官然後有為施者進行的調查然後呢懲罰的程序調查結果的降階等等相關的評議評議委員會是寫在這一條所以大家可以看一下那如果說大家有意見的話我也可以接受先行保留之後再討論"},{"start":15781.806,"end":15785.929,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":15798.399,"end":15803.142,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。"},{"start":15824.632,"end":15839.556,"text":"就這一條有利及不利之嫌疑於立主席這個是我們一般在調查的時候那看錯了我第15條沒有東西啊那個主席我們自己都看錯了第15條那我這邊怎麼會有一個他的第30條對應是嗎是不是看錯啊這邊寫的是徐曉新版"},{"start":15849.438,"end":15870.395,"text":"第15條沒意見第15條沒意見因為我這裡的是空白的因為我這邊有你的版本再來到第2章的第18條有馬文君委員跟陳永康委員都有提案修正陳永康委員是在第18還是19"},{"start":15873.759,"end":15881.647,"text":"18有嗎?18就有。好,第18條,那我們先從陳永康委員的修正動議先提。來,18。來,那個是不是用麥克風表達意見?來。你寫在19喔,你不是18喔,陳委員。"},{"start":15898.737,"end":15900.039,"text":"徐巧芯等18人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":15910.723,"end":15915.346,"text":"徐巧芯等軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":15932.395,"end":15935.857,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍軍事官服役條例第25條士兵准用的部分已經有明文規定"},{"start":15949.525,"end":15955.547,"text":"最少需要犯有期徒刑一年以上之刑責,你才會剝奪或減少他的退儲給予。」"},{"start":15970.231,"end":15975.133,"text":"有判有期徒刑以上一年以上才有這樣子的一個就是剝奪或減少退出給予可是像我們一般危機有什麼樣這麼嚴重需要到你去剝奪他的那個退出給予或是減少嗎因為在行政法裡面什麼樣的行為你除了三大過測值以外有哪一種太陽在你不違法的情況之下要這麼重"},{"start":16000.32,"end":16002.983,"text":"我們請他說明一下我覺得很難理解而且這樣有點是空白授權請法律司舊18條就是說這裡面牽涉到人事、財產、紀律等等再剝奪減少退出給予等等你們的理由是什麼"},{"start":16021.073,"end":16046.379,"text":"我跟召委韓國委員報告就是剛剛馬委員講的馬委員其實後面那幾個條文都是針對剝奪或減少退出給予那我們當初在訂的時候我就跟委員報告就是因為軍人如果被彈劾的話是要送懲戒法院那懲戒法院他在做公務員的懲戒裡面公務員的懲罰裡面的話懲戒裡面他會有這個相關的種類那先前在巡達跟公聽會時有很多的委員也覺得說剝奪減少退出給予"},{"start":16047.939,"end":16052.161,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。"},{"start":16065.726,"end":16092.503,"text":"剝奪退出給予由懲戒法院剝奪被副懲戒人以依法審定之退出給予其已知領者並應追回之。二、減少退出給予由懲戒法院減少被副懲戒人以依法審定之退出給予的20%至57%已知領者應追回之。三、前兩項鎖定退出給予因案最近一次退伍解除"},{"start":16093.143,"end":16109.993,"text":"召集或除役前服役年資計算,但背負懲戒人本人繳付之退府基金費用本席不在此限。」也就是說,剝奪監獄退出給予,這個是懲戒法院來做,軍事長官不做,就是跟委員報告。那這樣的話,因為公務員也是一樣,剝奪監獄退出給予,"},{"start":16111.474,"end":16124.426,"text":"如果有人被彈劾了,送到檢察院彈劾完了之後,送到懲戒法院去,懲戒法院他也可以去針對,不論軍人也好,公務員也好,都可以用剝奪減少退出給予,這樣都不會...沈先生,我先釐清一下你的說法,你的說法是要把第18條,這個要..."},{"start":16126.988,"end":16129.149,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。七、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16155.161,"end":16178.969,"text":"確定判決證明書或懲戒法院第二審判決後應通知退出給予的核定機關,重新審定退出給予,並複製退出給予資給機關。也就是說第25條動完以後第70條在那個執行面上面稍微調整一下那至於其他的條文法律社說明是第一個這一個要動到退休給予的部分不能長官為之而是經過懲戒法院"},{"start":16180.79,"end":16196.465,"text":"這個跟糾談大概是有點類似啦。第二個,執行的程序是在第70條啦。好,那有關這部分的話翁小玲委員先啦。是,如果說按照剛剛司長的說明的話,那其實直接依照工程法處理就好了,根本也不需要定在懲罰法裡面啊。不是,也是多此一舉。"},{"start":16201.004,"end":16201.624,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":16217.814,"end":16222.679,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16241.357,"end":16255.454,"text":"未來懲戒法院在判軍人懲戒案件的時候,他在實體法上的選擇懲罰的種類不能夠按照工程法的懲戒種類去選,而必須要以陸海空軍懲罰法的這幾個懲罰種類去選。"},{"start":16260.42,"end":16264.324,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。三、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16276.823,"end":16276.943,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16297.561,"end":16304.643,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16324.449,"end":16334.272,"text":"很嚴重的就走那個陸海空軍刑法了啦那有什麼樣態可能會剝奪他的追究機遇然後會送到懲戒法院去做判定的類似的樣態"},{"start":16339.967,"end":16362.177,"text":"張大偉當時就有被彈劾,他將來彈劾就送到懲戒法院去,後來懲戒法院給他自處停職吧,免除職務,懲戒法院給他判是免除職務,但是如果將來懲戒法院可以針對他這個,可以剝奪…你現在也沒有懲戒法院的那個…有有,我跟委員報告你張大偉的那個部分,他有沒有犯法?他刑法,對,他有沒有犯法?他犯法以後會怎麼處理?"},{"start":16365.918,"end":16370.823,"text":"法院判他刑,第一審判了8年,他離開了,他原來被押,現在被判了。現在就是說,這個行為違反刑法,刑法會判,但是也會給他糾纏,那糾纏的時候的處罰以後要適用這個法來處理,大概是這個意思。來,那個政見台委員先舉手。"},{"start":16389.781,"end":16408.58,"text":"我想請教的就是說因為這個懲戒跟懲罰這是兩個不同的概念那你現在第三條裡面的規定看起來是懲戒法院去這個去審理有關於軍人的彈劾案然後卻要適用現在軍懲罰裡面的種類"},{"start":16415.046,"end":16438.713,"text":"那為什麼要這麼做,那你原來的工程法就可以了啊?我跟委員報告,原來譬如像休職,好多年前為了那個直升機的那個個案,那個被送到彈劾了之後,當時叫工程會,工程會給他懲罰叫休職,休職我們軍人沒有這個種類,沒有這個種類就很難做,軍人有官職役。所以也就是說應該要去修工程法而不是修在軍程法?不是,我跟委員報告,"},{"start":16440.534,"end":16463.713,"text":"很早期之前就已經爭論過軍人如果被彈劾到底應該是進懲戒法院還是由權責長官來做處罰這個很早在民國38、39年就有一個很有名的案子但是到司法院釋字262號解釋出來的時候當時也是有一個個案有一個長官被彈劾了彈劾完了之後後來我們有去翻那個相關的資料"},{"start":16464.193,"end":16477.263,"text":"最後結論是那位被彈劾的高階長官最後決定說既然彈劾了尊重監察院所以說就把被彈劾的案件就送到當時叫工程會現在叫懲戒法院來做處理因為262號解釋已經有寫了"},{"start":16479.184,"end":16480.385,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16495.399,"end":16497.38,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16517.347,"end":16518.688,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16534.383,"end":16551.587,"text":"判了幾個我個人認為比較嚴重的錯誤啦就是你把刑事的偵查又跟刑事偵查調查跟行政的調查又混在一起很多看起來就是便宜刑事你明明應該是要做兩套不同的這個法制可是你卻又混為一談這會讓人家感到就錯亂"},{"start":16558.054,"end":16578.092,"text":"馬慧媛在陸海空軍刑法裡面其實你已經有可以剝奪退出給予的部分,如果他有罪的話那是國安法、貪污法什麼的相關的對,就是有一些如果你犯了相關的法或者你在刑法裡面其實你都會剝奪這個部分"},{"start":16580.274,"end":16591.261,"text":"懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、陸海空軍懲罰"},{"start":16610.094,"end":16623.32,"text":"可軍人也會被糾纏,被糾纏之後一樣送到懲戒法院。懲戒法院以往可能就按照一般公務員去勾,後來發現公務員的工作樣態跟軍人不一樣。"},{"start":16629.564,"end":16649.92,"text":"作出公務員修職和軍人沒有修職這個項目,作出這個裁處等於沒有處罰。所以他們現在有經過修法的共識,司法院認為到懲戒法院處理的時候,要勾拿幾種處罰,就根據這個法來寫。所以我們今天把他拿掉,他以後就勾不到。這個就是在刑法跟"},{"start":16651.421,"end":16675.069,"text":"檢察院糾談之間適用的法律。」這是我們現在憲法的體力所以如果我們今天在這個法裡面把這些處罰項目拿走之後將來檢察院就某一個將領或某一個軍官糾談送懲戒法庭的時候他就勾不到這個處罰項目所以這個大概是現在目前五權憲法的架構下的一個處理方式"},{"start":16679.088,"end":16699.079,"text":"對你們法院應該要去修工程法啊你們是認為說現在工程法裡面只有針對文職文職的公務員有這樣的一個懲戒的類型然後沒有針對武官軍人武官那所以你們要去修工程法然後去增加那個"},{"start":16700.24,"end":16701.702,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":16716.34,"end":16720.062,"text":"公懲法是廣義公務員公務員報告關於軍人懲罰或懲戒種類的選擇陸海空軍懲罰法有十幾二十條的定義不管是針對不同的軍人有不同的懲罰這個算是蠻龐大的我們公務員懲戒法主要是針對公務員當然以前有包含軍人的懲罰都可以適用公懲法這一塊既然"},{"start":16745.154,"end":16768.389,"text":"這部法律現在我們審這部法律竟然已經比較對公務員對軍人的懲罰部分已經細緻化了那我們認為說放在這個陸海空軍懲罰法其實會比放在公務員懲戒法還適合不然的話公務員懲戒法這邊突然長出一大塊完全規範軍人的那其實是在體力上其實蠻蠻蠻奇怪的我們又說後來要把他送到懲戒"},{"start":16771.731,"end":16793.184,"text":"對,所以才認為說為了讓那個懲戒法院在判的時候,像那個昭偉剛剛講的,能夠勾選出適合的懲戒種類,所以在這部分剝奪減少退出給予這部分,還是可以讓懲戒法院來維持。各位同仁,我們是不是收斂一下,因為我們真的現在就在處理陸海空軍的懲罰法。"},{"start":16794.105,"end":16796.408,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16802.014,"end":16806.455,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16830.681,"end":16834.404,"text":"詢問一下,就是說如果剛剛提到的是以張大偉的這個案例,那他如果被判刑確定以後,他是不是也可以剝奪他的退出給予?他如果判刑確定也可以嗎?那你不是就有了嗎?可是你大部分的懲罰法是一般沒有那麼重的耶。你今天如果張大偉那個被判刑確定一年以上,他還是要被剝奪他的退出給予啊。所以你為什麼是把他放在這個…"},{"start":16859.52,"end":16862.582,"text":"我們一直在講說懲罰法裡面其實他一般的態樣是比較沒有那麼嚴重就是他不是犯法的這樣的一個狀況所以你把退出給予要給人家你現在成績法院你也沒有辦法去判定說他是不是可以大到去剝奪他的退出給予而是監察院彈劾以後"},{"start":16884.855,"end":16888.777,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":16911.667,"end":16912.988,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":16928.959,"end":16938.382,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16958.687,"end":16959.247,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":16977.133,"end":16979.894,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查"},{"start":17003.971,"end":17020.469,"text":"公務人員懲戒法,就我們現在事務上的解釋來講,它本來就已經包含了文官、武官嘛,的這個公務員。就是說,就它後面的執行的部分,那個司法院或者法律司再說明一下,因為這個我們在這邊正面這個,我們這個法到底還要不要往下修下去的問題喔?"},{"start":17022.711,"end":17037.525,"text":"這個很重要嗎?司法院再說明一下其實如果對於該怎麼處理大家都有一定的共識的話那只是差別在於修正工程法或者是修正陸海空軍懲罰法的話我覺得未來可以再討論"},{"start":17039.606,"end":17041.127,"text":"處理法草案案案件。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":17057.412,"end":17059.713,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":17077.645,"end":17093.445,"text":"我們這一個陸海空軍的懲罰法當然大部分還是要處理現在在處理的是有關剝奪退休給予這個比較重大部分那原來這整個罰則樣態跟專章都是要由懲戒法庭來處理"},{"start":17094.787,"end":17095.408,"text":"相關處罰法部分條文修正草案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":17110.43,"end":17111.47,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、"},{"start":17140.299,"end":17145.621,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17168.393,"end":17197.385,"text":"那這裡面可能沒有注意到還是我這個這個看不清楚還是怎麼樣我們先看第三條小小的一點第三條的第二項第三條行政院版的《公務員懲罰法》第24條規定以軍人之為私行為到底要用為私還是為記小小的意見以上"},{"start":17203.702,"end":17204.162,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17223.478,"end":17242.751,"text":"這個沒有,因為沒有主條就沒有機會討論了,所以有,主條念的時候我們都不在了。因為這裡引用的是工程法第24條。又說這是工程法的規定,所以我就說為什麼會感到體力很混亂。因為這個當初在討論的時候就討論非常久,我們有幾件事情是改變不掉的,第一個,"},{"start":17243.391,"end":17259.831,"text":"被監察院彈劾的案件是一定要進以前的工程會、未來的承接法院。」這是大法官26號解釋已經講了這個是第一個大法官會議室放那邊沒辦法改變第二個第三條要調整的事情是什麼第三條要調整的事情是"},{"start":17260.852,"end":17284.415,"text":"因為工程法當初在修我機場的第二條和第三條他把軍人包進去了也就是說在工程法裡面他就會24條規定什麼就是9隻等以下的公務員單位可以直接移送那過去就有別的行政機關就一直在講說你軍人上銷以下這些違紀行為因為他原來他的條文寫著違實我們這邊是引用他的條文"},{"start":17284.735,"end":17285.876,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17302.228,"end":17320.282,"text":"有機關一直在說你國防部是不是在逃避你不願意把人送到懲戒法院去你不願意怎麼樣所以說他們要求我們一定要把人通通往懲戒法院送第一個懲戒法院案量處理有限第一個是案量的問題軍人的危機行為很多的第二個"},{"start":17320.962,"end":17322.163,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17341.92,"end":17366.375,"text":"就由部隊來處理,因為262號沒有辦法去跟動他,所以說軍人的所有的違紀行為,如果你被彈劾了就進懲戒法院,懲戒法院就按照這些相關的種類來做,沒有被彈劾的人部隊長就直接按懲罰法來處理。所以就是說以後九支等以下的就沒有所謂的軍人懲戒的部分嗎?對。是不是?對。那你為什麼不修工程法呢?"},{"start":17369.717,"end":17383.185,"text":"懲罰法是國防部主管。我知道,所以這個部分我就還是在講,就還是司法院帶過失職。我們還是釐清一下,剛才沈司長所提的就是說,如果我們原來都走懲戒法的時候,"},{"start":17384.105,"end":17400.622,"text":"我們會有本來部隊處理的違紀行為通通要丟到那邊第一個等他處罰完這個人才有辦法調動那個曠日廢食那個處理不完那個部隊根本這個人就完了等你懲戒法庭處理這個人就只能冰在那裡"},{"start":17401.403,"end":17403.305,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":17416.34,"end":17417.481,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17435.552,"end":17435.792,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17451.397,"end":17454.038,"text":"我今天還對還是在工程會因為你是針對那個是比較嚴重的那個已經是嚴重的我就說你剛剛舉的那個案例除非你其他的很普遍的都會發生在你的懲罰法裡面必須要去執行的那才有意義啊不然你為了你剛剛提到的張大偉的案子他就是以後舉例啦我就說"},{"start":17474.162,"end":17474.322,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17485.649,"end":17490.131,"text":"我建議就是說本來他就應該要分流啊就是說我們今天陸海空軍懲罰法裡面規定相關的就是說可能比較輕的一些好比較因為就案子這麼多嘛對不對好他案子很多然後那如果說送到工程會裡面的話那緩不濟急不可能那一些可能比較輕的相關的法則我們在這裡訂定但他如果今天他涉及到真的很嚴格的比如說剛講了好幾個喔"},{"start":17513.641,"end":17520.088,"text":"撥奪或減少、退出、給予 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行為 行為很嚴重的行"},{"start":17528.777,"end":17544.963,"text":"所以我們並不是說今天在陸海空軍懲罰法裡面不能規定懲罰而是應該把它分流就小的各種的案子我們很平常會用到常常有的我們還是規定在這裡但是比較嚴重的部分我們還是應該要回到公務人員懲戒法裡面去謝謝"},{"start":17547.449,"end":17547.869,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17563.936,"end":17566.038,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17584.275,"end":17587.597,"text":"修正草案案 案 。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17615.582,"end":17621.766,"text":"處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17632.329,"end":17659.268,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具這個完整配套我不敢說完美就是說剛才各位委員提的去走工程法那也是一個方法這兩個方法我不認為哪個好哪個不好可是現在這個配套已經嫁接到軍中的文化軍中懲戒的方式然後呢裡面從一般的處罰一直到要經過工程會過去的工程會現在的懲罰法停經過彈劾的處理他都把他體系架構好也就是說這樣處理"},{"start":17660.769,"end":17662.69,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17686.681,"end":17701.562,"text":"不放在軍懲罰裡面,另外去由工程法那邊去增加一個專章針對軍人,也是一個方法。但是我會建議說,我們已經在審這套法,這法已經在那邊談很久了。如果能夠保障權益,"},{"start":17702.483,"end":17705.765,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17723.857,"end":17725.978,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":17745.302,"end":17746.864,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17762.239,"end":17778.041,"text":"我也建議保留因為你們在這個像第19條裡面寫到了這個軍官的懲罰裡面包含什麼呢?撤職、降節、繼過那包含你的比如說你退伍金、退休奉你都一併拔掉然後列在這裡面"},{"start":17779.122,"end":17780.582,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":17803.329,"end":17821.134,"text":"受到剝奪,我們今天坐在這裡修法,我們就會覺得很對不起大家,所以我還是建議保留。按照工程法剝奪跟按照軍程法剝奪都是依法剝奪,只是用哪個法來處理比較好。我們今天先討論到這裡,剩餘的部分我們明天繼續討論。我們暫時休會,謝謝。我們休息,明天上午9點準時開會。"}]}},{"id":"15893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15893","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc35675eb71f9bc6ae368ce084da5fa7c73be8d109af184be4982436e90c1b5da85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：【協商主題一】：（一）本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查台灣民眾黨黨團、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員傅崐萁等52人、委員傅崐萁等52人分別擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」、委員傅崐萁等52人、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」、委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」、委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」、委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」、委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」及委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。（二）委員羅智強等31人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十二條、第二十三條及第二十八條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」。（三）委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」及委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」。【協商主題二】：委員李彥秀等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第三十一條及第七十一條之一條文修正草案」。【協商主題三】：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」及委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。【協商主題四】：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」及委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。【協商主題五】：委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院組織法第三條條文修正草案」。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-08","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:30:17+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024050642","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:18:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":6463,"委員發言時間":"11:30:17 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總委員"},{"start":2340.632,"end":2367.406,"text":"主席吳釗緯、我們各黨團的代表我想還有各機關的代表我想今天這樣的一個協商意義很重大因為終於我們今天可以完完全全的就法條來論法條那我是建議是不是今天我們剛好看到第一條是省會保留的黨團提案是台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條它分別是增列第三項其實我是先舉例"},{"start":2368.266,"end":2382.037,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正"},{"start":2385.399,"end":2412.43,"text":"那麼想請教一下主席我們的處理方式比如說以民眾黨的第二條它增列第三項將現行的實施的方式以明文表達那如果黨團各黨團都覺得沒有意見那這樣是不是我們就就該條文就可以達成一個協商同意那如果其他條文也是這樣那或者不是這樣要怎麼處理程序上是不是主席有一個跟我們說明一下各黨團的代表說明一下"},{"start":2415.373,"end":2420.196,"text":"因為我們就進行逐條討論啊是不是還是你們有別的想法"},{"start":2430.094,"end":2435.856,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文"},{"start":2450.402,"end":2454.147,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文"},{"start":2467.603,"end":2475.207,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、"},{"start":2482.91,"end":2506.002,"text":"所以今天蠻遺憾我在立法院9年的時間我是比較疑問就是今天只處理了國民黨版、民眾黨版還有部分國民黨及委員的提案這樣對於整個以傅崐萁作為國民黨版所以這整個程序上真的會在未來後續的處理上也會有些措置包括在院會的處置上"},{"start":2508.283,"end":2536.182,"text":"都會呈現有的被丟包事實上規範的是同樣的條文內容有沒有可能爭取什麼樣方式權宜可以一併來討論的可能呢今天協商的範圍就是我剛剛在宣告的時候所提到的範圍啦那其他範圍以外的不是今天會議的那我也無權多說什麼以上總委員主席我是覺得很可惜啦我講幾句話就好了啦"},{"start":2537.998,"end":2563.076,"text":"你是委員會召委啦結果朝野協商的時候你說要組條啦也很好啊 我覺得也很好啊委員會你卻不讓人家組條啊是不是可以請主席說明一下這部分我沒有什麼好說明的為什麼我要對我的決策告訴你們我的想法是什麼你是委員會的召委我已經說我要怎麼做了我的義務是告訴大家"},{"start":2564.228,"end":2573.791,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、"},{"start":2593.098,"end":2599.004,"text":"理性的人基本提出的問題我就在請教嘛就是說你本來在委員會裡面你可以主條討論的你不讓人家討論你到朝野協商來說主條討論我也贊成啊我只是要問說很怪耶那你當委員會的招委要幹什麼"},{"start":2609.864,"end":2614.949,"text":"《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、"},{"start":2625.66,"end":2644.809,"text":"那確實是把現在的這個進行的程序把它明文啦但是我想請一下那個周恩來秘書啊您認為有沒有需要把這樣子的條文因為這是我們一般的慣例啦你覺得第三項的加進來這個文字我同意啊我同意我同意我同意因為也有例過吧"},{"start":2651.383,"end":2666.311,"text":"所以這個文字的寫法就完全是有沒有要再精煉的地方第一項開議日黨團協商無法達成共識時應即由院長召開全院委員即由即由的意思是即日內還是甚麼即由"},{"start":2667.011,"end":2691.592,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職"},{"start":2691.872,"end":2691.992,"text":"主席"},{"start":2710.359,"end":2736.08,"text":"好我想就今天的審查會想針對台灣民眾黨的第二條的提案我想大家應該是有共識嘛那如果這一條大家沒有意見的話我們就在民眾黨我的意見是說如果大家沒意見就如果有意見就送院會處理嘛國民黨的意見是沒有意見那另外就是說我們現在這個整個程序要怎麼進行我想因為版本非常多啦"},{"start":2736.781,"end":2743.624,"text":"《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、"},{"start":2752.327,"end":2774.125,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人�"},{"start":2779.41,"end":2805.692,"text":"對 有啊 就傅崐萁委員的就是我們52個委員連署的一個版本第二條沒有 我剛才講第二條我們就是依民眾黨的版本來通過就比較沒有意見的我們是同意這樣子那其他的就是以傅崐萁委員我們國民黨52個人連署那個版本跟民眾黨的版本作為我們逐條討論的一個參考OK 謝謝謝謝那請問還有委員要表示意見嗎"},{"start":2807.449,"end":2807.989,"text":"委員翁曉玲提案委員有無異議"},{"start":2842.679,"end":2855.486,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、"},{"start":2874.77,"end":2877.172,"text":"委員翁曉玲等15人分別擬具第十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2895.708,"end":2898.13,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2926.724,"end":2937.991,"text":"委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲等15人、委員翁曉玲"},{"start":2943.712,"end":2961.077,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職"},{"start":2972.742,"end":2974.385,"text":"主席我要說提案委員沒來講我自己要討論"},{"start":2978.208,"end":3005.185,"text":"提案委員還是林思敏委員可以替她可以替她可以替她說明一下這個如果在委員會討論的話提案人就會做對提案要說明啊那今天協商這個程序上啊他又不在啊這是一個關鍵從吳季明要改成季明那他的立論是什麼現行在處置上有什麼樣子的漢格有什麼樣的不妥這個沒有提案委員在那只能保留因為實在不知道"},{"start":3007.401,"end":3034.69,"text":"好那接下來請黃委員發言如果黨團表示不同的看法要導流我沒意見我們接下來就按照這個原則處理不過我先代表台灣民眾黨黨團針對這個條文發表我們的看法針對第十五條這樣的修正我們是支持的支持的理由非常的容易針對總統所提出來的緊急命令"},{"start":3035.53,"end":3050.991,"text":"要給立法院、國會來投票決定我們到底是同意還是不同意這一種對於國家重大事項的當然是以記名投票的方式才能夠展現負責任的精神"},{"start":3051.992,"end":3074.623,"text":"因此對於把現行的條文第十五條改成從無記名投票變成記名投票不僅符合責任政治的精神跟我們現在目前立法院在院會的時候我們所投票的方式也是相一致的因此本黨團針對第十五條的修正竟表同意"},{"start":3077.754,"end":3103.368,"text":"請問十五條如果大家沒有共識不是沒有共識是這樣因為審略了提案委員的說明的時候我們的確連一個字的差別都會忽略那因為事實上目前立法院的表決其實都是用表決器其實形同是記名表決是形同記名表決所以以目前立法院目前才做的法案的表決沒有"},{"start":3103.968,"end":3108.252,"text":"《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、"},{"start":3130.211,"end":3143.25,"text":"比這個小很多的都是記名表決了沒有理由說這個不記名表決那只是說在條文上特別去予以記名或不記名做這樣的更動就實況上的影響是什麼可不可以請秘書長說明一下麻煩秘書長說明"},{"start":3146.97,"end":3159.964,"text":"各位委員因為表決方式要採用什麼我個人沒有意見啦因為大家合意啦不過要跟各位委員報告全院委員會審查了六個案都是用投票表決"},{"start":3161.084,"end":3163.186,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查"},{"start":3183.966,"end":3210.361,"text":"中委員主席在場各位代表我對記名跟無記名我倒不會有什麼樣的一個堅持你像譬如說我們這個政府院長的投票那也都一樣我們在立法院裡面你說不記名投票其實大家也都亮票了只是說這個行之有年你說美國美國的投票他們就記名你說你去看日本你去看德國很多的國家它確實像法國、英國"},{"start":3211.121,"end":3232.591,"text":"他們又是不記名那要記名不記名那不是重點如果說真的要為對整個自己的國會議員自己的投票行為尤其是重大事項來負責任的話甚至於讓民眾來知道說你這個投票對重大議案你的在投票的時候你的行為、你的取向"},{"start":3233.451,"end":3241.6,"text":"這個很透明我覺得這個也沒有什麼不可以但只是說很怪就是說你這個在整個提案的委員"},{"start":3243.493,"end":3255.345,"text":"一個案子在朝野協商的時候也沒有人來說明這就可以凸顯說我們在整個委員會裡面為什麼先要有提案委員的做提案說明以後再去做大體討論那我們把前面的都忽略掉了像我們剛剛在看這個條文的時候到最後還是黃國昌黃委員去看說少了一個字"},{"start":3265.655,"end":3271.217,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文"},{"start":3293.14,"end":3296.742,"text":"委員會不審查法案不足條就會造成這樣的一個結果啦"},{"start":3306.812,"end":3308.373,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":3329.898,"end":3345.703,"text":"委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲"},{"start":3351.245,"end":3357.689,"text":"該秘書長也講得很清楚順順大家的意見剛才聽你們講就同意啊這同意就讓他就這樣給他過了就還要有什麼意見"},{"start":3362.052,"end":3385.606,"text":"中委員謝謝我想在場的委員齁我們大概都沒有周秘書長來的資深齁莊委員第八屆進來我個人跟務委員第九屆還有黃委員也是自己有約進來林委員第十屆進來現在是第十一屆從第八屆到第十一屆本院有進行過記名投票表決嗎有沒有進行過記名投票表決沒有"},{"start":3386.789,"end":3407.891,"text":"沒有進行過記名投票表決但是我們有進行過無記名投票表決無記名投票表決陳如剛剛民眾黨說的目前在立法院職權行使法當中有六項無記名投票表決是對於人事同意權進行的所以我們是去領類似像選票啦是領票但是票上沒有註明你的名字"},{"start":3408.872,"end":3424.68,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人�"},{"start":3435.742,"end":3442.228,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":3459.364,"end":3474.822,"text":"會比唱名表決還要嚴謹的原因是因為他會留下了一個很清楚的紀錄所以過去我們立法院職權行使法當中吳敬明表決的就是包括原來的這一個"},{"start":3475.962,"end":3493.911,"text":"緊急命令以及人事同意權那記名表決的包括倒閣、包括解散國會以及包括剛剛民眾黨還提到的有三項那目前我們目前也還未處理過立法院職權行使法中的記名投票表決再強調一次倒閣"},{"start":3495.703,"end":3521.57,"text":"包括解散國會就是倒閣就是不信任案那因為目前還沒有發生所以呢我這裡還是要很慎重的因為我們民眾黨是議事專家過去這六項當中三項無記名投票三項記名投票那過去民眾黨說都曾經行使過那抱歉我第九屆才進來我不曉得之前"},{"start":3522.728,"end":3548.245,"text":"有對於這樣的濟民表決行使的立法院的生態我想趙偉您也沒有遇到過我們其實都沒有遇到過濟民投票表決那這個情況是不是請秘書長完整的說明一下我們才能了解為什麼原來十五條它規定是無濟民那我們現在改成濟民成如剛剛黃總召所說的大家認為這麼重大的事情我們用表決系表決都是具名的嘛"},{"start":3548.925,"end":3562.057,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、"},{"start":3564.879,"end":3591.247,"text":"這樣的亂象所以它是個非常慎重的程序那有鑑於目前我們過去幾位現場的委員不曾有經歷過可不可以請民主黨幫我們介紹這六種晉民表決跟吳晉民表決它的適用的時機好不好那先等一下民主黨那個齁因為我們今天是協商嘛那有沒有這一條本來大家我以為大家都有高度的共識那當然沒問題如果中法委有這個需求沒問題對那我是說"},{"start":3592.587,"end":3605.073,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":3618.3,"end":3627.529,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":3640.162,"end":3649.267,"text":"委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具、「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具、「立法院職權行使法第十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具、「立法院職權行使法第十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具、「立法院職權行使法第十五條及第四十四條條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等12人分別擬具、「立法院職權行使法第十五條及第四十四條條條文修正草案、委員翁曉"},{"start":3656.685,"end":3670.422,"text":"這個寄名跟不寄名我舉個例來講,憲法徵求條項對不信案就明定就寄名投票表決吧所以不信案已經做過了吧那復議案也做過了吧那你罷免陳總統的時候也做過了吧"},{"start":3671.923,"end":3700.107,"text":"都有有三個我剛才講過有六個三個有做過現在這是徵修條這個職權行使法裡面的委員提出來把另外三個改成記名投票吧那我剛才已經跟各位委員報告過吧實際上我們已經都處理過啦那你再再如果說認為這一個不宜用記名投票那各位委員去合議也不是我能夠做決定了吧"},{"start":3707.231,"end":3733.899,"text":"民眾黨黨長謝謝秘書長再度的讓我們修正很清楚他這裡講的是罷免、不信任跟複議那前兩項是對人罷免是對總統進行罷免不信任是對行政院、對革魁等於是形容是罷免的意思他就是對人是用記名投票的方式來進行那複議就不同了複議是"},{"start":3735.495,"end":3756.627,"text":"行政院對於立法院所為之重大政策之決議他無法執行,他就移請立法院進行復議那這個復議呢,是救市的政策那這種情況之下呢,要記名投票嘛,剛剛說的是記名投票嘛復議嘛,復議是進行記名投票它的重要性是相當程度的嚴重的"},{"start":3759.644,"end":3777.733,"text":"立法院職權行使法當中立法院所要行使的這些人事的罷免跟不信任就是倒閣是救人的部分他是要記名的但是復議的部分是救世的部分進行復議但是另外三項的那個"},{"start":3778.814,"end":3797.431,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院"},{"start":3799.498,"end":3822,"text":"彈劾罷免彈劾跟罷免現在目前罷免是記名嘛現在彈劾是不記名彈劾是不記名你說三個三個吧彈劾不記名彈劾不記名可是罷免要記名彈劾是對總統進行彈劾因為這個我在一分鐘說明可不可以主席啊"},{"start":3822.844,"end":3839.322,"text":"主席我可以說一遍嗎因為這一個裡面啦你從徵修條文裡面對不信案如果你從醫學上來講對人是不記名對是記名吧那不信案就對人在徵修條文就改成記名了嘛"},{"start":3840.043,"end":3844.406,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、"},{"start":3856.434,"end":3884.491,"text":"如果大家都沒有共識那就乾脆保留就送院會處理這條保留啦好不好等一下好我補充一下我也同意送保留處理為什麼呢這理由要講清楚就是因為跳過了委員會討論的程序所以我們剛剛對於現行的六項記名或無記名他過去行使的歷史脈絡是什麼我們都沒有辦法在委員會討論那只好在協商討論那以目前來講其實緊急命令是非常非常嚴肅跟重要的事情"},{"start":3885.091,"end":3886.492,"text":"委員翁曉玲等52人、委員翁曉玲等52人、委員翁曉玲等52人擬具"},{"start":3902.942,"end":3909.946,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、"},{"start":3931.476,"end":3945.499,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁"},{"start":3952.661,"end":3978.208,"text":"是沒有過上一次應該就是921的時候所以我是認為更嚴謹的我們這個條文保留但是在院會處理的時候更為嚴謹的是我們應當針對現在的六個在院會所行使的這個投票行為彈劾、罷免、不信任、復議、緊急命令跟人事統一權的各個方式哪一項應當是在哪一個level用記名或無記名更為嚴謹它一定都有法律的立論我認為這樣討論才是負責"},{"start":3980.168,"end":3990.118,"text":"好嗎?所以這個一定在院會必須做這樣的處理當然也期待提案的委員負責任要說明他提案的緣由那這樣才是嚴謹才是嚴謹因為這是涉及憲法的這個權利喔所以這個案子"},{"start":3996.585,"end":3997.106,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4015.68,"end":4041.736,"text":"沒有人接好那因為有異議的話那我們就有異見也是要講一下好嗎這一條是重中之重就是十五條之一職權行使法我們這個職權行使法十五條之一開始有好幾個條文都在處理總統到立法院國情報告的程序那昨天在這個程序委員會的時候國民黨也好民眾黨也好也都有援引職權行使法十五條相關的條例要提請"},{"start":4042.83,"end":4061.964,"text":"邀請賴清德未來總統來立法院國刑報告那我個人現行的條文是只有一條一項那它完全就是回應憲法徵修條文第四條第三項的規定立法院得於每年集會時聽取總統國刑報告所以它的key word是第一個得"},{"start":4063.049,"end":4075.979,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、"},{"start":4088.308,"end":4099.375,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁"},{"start":4113.883,"end":4138.048,"text":"那我認為這樣都已經溢出了憲法的授權而且更、更綁手綁腳那我是個人是沒有辦法同意國民黨的幾位委員的提案那我再一次說怎麼會是我在替傅崐萁委員做提案說明呢提案委員沒有能力來這裡針對自己的提案做說明嗎好所以這樣子的這個處理對於憲法的原文我覺得有所憾格而且有所豫悅好我沒有辦法接受這個條文這樣"},{"start":4141.926,"end":4148.361,"text":"主席我是建議既然說吳士堯委員他們有意見嘛那我們就送保留嘛那我問"},{"start":4155.263,"end":4171.182,"text":"在這裡謝謝主席給我們在協商的時候就這個第十五條之一表示意見其實原來的十五條之一它原條文是依中華民國憲法徵修條文第四條第三項規定立法院得以每年集會時聽取總統國情報告"},{"start":4173.385,"end":4194.046,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職"},{"start":4194.906,"end":4211.716,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":4216.637,"end":4241.877,"text":"立法院可以提出修憲案那後來的徵修條文要提到全民公民覆決但是原來對總統的彈劾是在國民大會那國民大會廢了之後這個彈劾選就跑到了啊對不起彈劾是在監察院後來跑到了這個國民大會後來又再跑到立法院那就目前的這個國情報告呢它在原來的徵修條文當中在還有存在"},{"start":4243.475,"end":4267.032,"text":"國民大會的時候是在鄭小璇第一條的後段他說國民大會集會時得聽取總統國情報告並檢討國事提供建言如一年內為集會由總統召集會議為之不受憲法第30條之限制我們今天不是審查會我們今天是協商那如果這樣你這樣子的效率我就不懂今天我們不是審查會為什麼我認為這一條"},{"start":4269.133,"end":4275.736,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、"},{"start":4288.04,"end":4303.385,"text":"聽取總統的國情報告純粹是因為在2005年修憲之後曾曉雲修改之後將國民大會廢除才會將國民大會原來的總統國情報告的這樣的一個儀式性的一個行為移給立法院來進行"},{"start":4304.545,"end":4321.42,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條條文修正草案、委員"},{"start":4324.167,"end":4343.747,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「"},{"start":4344.187,"end":4348.108,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、"},{"start":4363.993,"end":4391.469,"text":"不在現場我們很難去詢問其實您在啦您現在就在台上啦這個完全就是從我們立法院去監督行政院聽取我們施政報告把它拷貝過來的那這才會引發說為什麼是憲政上的衝突因為立法院不對總統進行監督啦總統不是對立法院負責是行政院對立法院負責當時有這樣的一個國情報告是基於總統原來在1996年之前是由國民大會選舉的"},{"start":4393.208,"end":4416.589,"text":"所以國民大會才取得了對總統聽取國民大會國情報告的這樣的權利現在總統不是由立法院選的國民大會也廢止了我們把一個廢止的機關徵求到裡面的一個權利把它祭壽過來那我們就要把它當作是監督行政院一樣的方式來行使這裡面的確有線上上的漢格啦所以一直過去我們在委員會審查沒有機會做這樣的討論"},{"start":4418.27,"end":4427.933,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、"},{"start":4441.459,"end":4454.284,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職"},{"start":4468.93,"end":4481.078,"text":"縱橫的內容謝謝那個昭緯那這樣啦因為我們今天是協商不是審查會所以如果對於我們的提案內容有意義的話那就是就是送院會保留"},{"start":4483.471,"end":4512.88,"text":"對那好那既然有意義沒有問題我們都尊重大家的意義或是有要提修正動議那我也沒有意見嘛不是啦因為主席你剛開宗明義本來我還覺得你很開明我才不用講這個不是那你剛不是也講說我們今天就是要來主條討論嗎不是你們我們今天可不可以主條討論也剛你講的不是嗎不是要有意義的話我們就送院會討論當然都是有意義的討論阿沒有意義的誰敢有直播的誰敢在這個地方胡說八道呢"},{"start":4514.633,"end":4520.367,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具〉、"},{"start":4520.905,"end":4548.05,"text":"保留送院會對 那個意不是你的那個意意義的意思沒有討論者會知道大家的意見怎麼樣可以整合嗎我們的意見就是按照傅崐萁委員的版本我們希望按照這個版本來立法通過嘛讓這個整個總統的國情報告很明確的在這個我們的條文裡面做規定嘛你們認為說這個好像不太妥當我們就送院會保留送院會嘛送院會處理啊"},{"start":4548.51,"end":4571.404,"text":"立法院總要有機會把自己的見解在審查條文裡面講出來看誰講的有沒有道理或胡說八道嘛主席我可以講話吧好來我想啊這個十五條之一啊各位其實也可以去想一想啦我們整個憲法正修條文第四條之三憲刑法的規定說立法院每一年集會的時候啊聽取總統的一個國情報告"},{"start":4572.344,"end":4591.172,"text":"我相信這個也是要求說總統被人民選出來以後本來都是把行政院長放在第一線那希望也有機會立法院來聽聽總統的一個看法可是你去把它看說我不曉得傅昆吉委員、吳宗憲委員還有翁曉玲委員跟呂玲委員四個版本你們要用哪一個版本"},{"start":4592.032,"end":4620.357,"text":"四個版本照我看來國民黨裡面四個版本你們要自己先去整合要整合出一個版本你以吳宗憲委員的提案跟傅崐萁委員的提案跟其他委員的提案我就看出你們文字裡面大有不同你們的中心思想是完全不同的你像從過去立法院的運作總統都想到國會來做國情報告可是立法院就會加碼沒有一問一答就不要來了"},{"start":4621.297,"end":4624.198,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具《立法院職權行使法第十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案》、"},{"start":4637.043,"end":4653.221,"text":"倒也不是你看你今天吳宗憲委員的你自己本身的提案你是說總統在每一年的2月1號以前將國情報告書送交立法院並知情立法院同意後3月1號以前到立法院國情報告你的第三項你的新修訂的是說總統"},{"start":4655.382,"end":4675.798,"text":"新就任總統應該就職兩週內向立法院提出國情報告書並知請立法院同意後也就是說你的提案是總統就算你想來第一個你國情報告書先送到立法院而且你還要經過立法院同意以後一個月內才可以到立法院來進行國情報告"},{"start":4677.239,"end":4695.595,"text":"那你現在副分局委員的提案就跟你完全不一樣啦副分局就是說你就是要來啦我立法院不用同意啦你就是法定義務就變成一個因啊那我要救教的就是說將跟我們現行的憲法徵修條文第四條第三項立法院德與美聯集會的時候聽取總統報告是德"},{"start":4699.138,"end":4707.701,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〉、"},{"start":4722.225,"end":4731.478,"text":"委員會處理應該是這樣這是今天會議的目的那我又回過頭去講誰提案怎麼樣內容又怎麼樣不是因為就沒有共識了嘛不是今天"},{"start":4733.561,"end":4761.869,"text":"不是到院會對因為今天有林委員提說到院會再講因為今天是協商那協商就是說你對於提案我跟妳講啦主席我跟妳講一句話我跟妳說啦我保證妳嘴就塞住了今天如果是台灣民眾黨提案你敢這樣處理啊他們就跟你們翻臉啦我跟妳講沒有講那些啦今天提案的人沒有來那既然提案的人提案的人既然已經提這樣子了那就是沒有共識嘛"},{"start":4763.953,"end":4767.681,"text":"就是沒有共識啊那你現在又要回過頭去變成逐條審查嗎"},{"start":4775.435,"end":4799.195,"text":"不是你今天要把協商要完成說逐條審查就每個字然後你去批評每個提案人的意見怎麼樣嗎不是那只有你講的是對的提案人講的都是錯的嗎我們應該尊重尊重他們吧提案是他們你們既然有意義不認同他們的講法那就有意義我們就送院用會處理嘛是不是今天協商應該是這樣"},{"start":4809.892,"end":4836.297,"text":"好那十五條之一竟然大家沒有共識那就送保留好第十五條之二我舉手舉了兩分鐘不用我講話台灣民眾黨的執案還有服務主席啊主席啊請問一下今天是協商不是你的演講比賽好不好你不是你的演講比賽你讓委員講一下話不是要委員舉手舉這麼久了協商不就是大家講話嗎"},{"start":4840.255,"end":4866.085,"text":"來沒有十五條之一我是要最後做一個我的意見的中整跟補充好嗎主席那協商是什麼意思我們來這裡主席正因為你們在委員會陌生的討論在委員會沒有辦法主條協商就是審查的延伸等一下十五條之一我還沒有講完主席我還沒有講完有意見主席協商跟主持委員會不一樣"},{"start":4868.817,"end":4893.268,"text":"可是我十五條之一我還沒有講完啊協商就是大家要意見要表達才能協商啊我還沒有講完嘛在急什麼不是啦文武師十五條之一我要補充我為什麼反對的理由好嗎我們現在審查第十五條之二齁十五條之一保留送院會"},{"start":4894.793,"end":4919.871,"text":"那現在第十五條之二請問最後第十五條之二的條文大家有無異議這種協商是什麼異議啊我第一次看到我就一直在舉手我舉手舉了三分鐘不讓我講話奇怪了這麼up吧所以我現在已經在說第十五條之二大家有無異議有想聽聽看我們那個提案的"},{"start":4921.451,"end":4925.816,"text":"那你要看他想不想講嘛好 那個黃委員那個鍾昭偉說請問一下你有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":4931.491,"end":4951.316,"text":"十五條之二的修正事實上相對的是照第二項的部分過去立法院職權行使法十五條之二的第一項跟第二項第一項本來是規定就國家安全大政方針然後第二項是就總統就其職權相關的國家大政方針"},{"start":4952.456,"end":4977.101,"text":"第一項跟第二項在客體面過去在法條的文字上面有出現彼此的銜接不是非常密合的狀況所以我們針對文字上面的調整使得十五條之後的第一項跟第二項就總統職權相關的大政方針不管是主動還是被動就客體規範客體面的事項予以做統一的規定、說明"},{"start":4980.453,"end":5000.073,"text":"提案的台灣民眾黨已經說明完畢,好,那鐘昭偉那麼感謝民眾黨團黃總昭的說明,終於我這樣才知道因為只是把原來第十五條之二第二項的"},{"start":5000.97,"end":5029.05,"text":"第二項是就其職權相關之國家大政方針他把他從底下拉到上面來重複一次就是排定議程之後他本來是就國家安全大政方針還要再加上就總統職權相關的國家大政方針所以總統來只能就總統職權相關的國家大政方針顯然是台灣民眾黨所肯定的所以他在第二項要再重複一遍"},{"start":5029.87,"end":5049.89,"text":"本來就有的是就其職權相關之國家大政方針那第一項呢也要就總統職權相關之國家大政方針我這樣理解應該沒有錯就是其實當時我們在立法院職權行使法第十五條之二為什麼對於一個本來由國民大會行使的總統國情報告他要特別在十五條之二裡面強調說必須就總統"},{"start":5052.952,"end":5073.521,"text":"執權相關的國家大政方針才能夠來進行報告就是因為要區隔於行政院向立法院負責的憲法的一個50條明文規定避免立法院對總統問一次對行政院問一次顯然跟對總統跟對行政院長問的要不一樣所以15條這當年就把它區隔出來了"},{"start":5074.121,"end":5078.222,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案》、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案》、"},{"start":5095.528,"end":5112.601,"text":"但是至少我覺得這個方向上就是尊重原來憲法的體制的精神十五條之二當年放了這一個就是要跟行政院長與世區隔啦所以我在這裡還是要提醒一下因為接下來我們還有十五條之四怎麼看不到十五條之三啊"},{"start":5113.952,"end":5129.233,"text":"我再去找找看十五條之三放在哪裡那十五條之三可能沒有修正我在猜應該是沒有人提修正那我這裡還是要跟我們在場的委員做一個意見交換就是說其實我們目前"},{"start":5130.54,"end":5147.863,"text":"立法院從國民大會接受的職權歷經多次修憲的變革憲法本文當中人事同意權司法院的、考試院的人事同意權不是由國民大會行使是由監察院行使"},{"start":5149.445,"end":5165.583,"text":"當時立法院有的人事同意權是對行政院長的人事同意權是因為後來監察院去國會機關化之後監察院的兩項對考院和司院的人事同意權跑到了國民大會那又因為國民大會廢止了才跑到了我們立法院"},{"start":5166.224,"end":5184.258,"text":"所以我還是要一段要強調的原來憲法本文的架構它其實是五院制的區隔是清楚的雖然我們不盡然同意這五院制的設計但是經過幾次憲法正條文的第三之後我們發現立法院從廢止的國民大樓那邊接受了一些疑似性的作為"},{"start":5185.279,"end":5209.941,"text":"那可能會衝擊到原來憲法本文的架構上行政院向立法院負責的架構以至於十五條之二他必須在立法院職權行使法當中特別慎重地去區隔對總統的國情報告他的內容總統只限定於是他總統職權所在範圍內的國家大政方針不會去跟行政院所處理的政務必須向立法院做的報告有所重疊我是肯認這樣的一個"},{"start":5212.623,"end":5239.034,"text":"缺格但是也有這樣的關係反正反過來證明其實十五條之一跟十五條之二是證明了十五條之一他這樣一致性的行為顯然會造成憲政體制的混亂所以當年在立法的時候才增加十五條之二把這個總統的報告限制於跟總統的職權有關的國家大政方針這樣的一個情況而已等於是你找了一個開了一個門可能造成麻煩又趕快關上一個門"},{"start":5242.976,"end":5265.807,"text":"這個門開開關關又打開又關上就是因為憲法本文的憲政體制有這樣的一個要求所以我是覺得這個條文因為十五條之一已經保留了那十五條之二我本來是認同民眾黨強調總統職權相關的這樣的文字的精神要貫徹但是至於文字上的表達是否要兩邊都表達我覺得可以討論以上那謝謝那請吳委員發言"},{"start":5271.69,"end":5295.041,"text":"我是不支持民眾黨的這個提案我的理由是這樣子十五條之二分兩項第一項的發動者是立法院立法院可以經四分之一委員的提議然後院會決議程序委員會排案就邀總統來這是立法院的發動權所以這是第一項第二項是總統自己主動要來"},{"start":5297.122,"end":5319.404,"text":"總統是主體所以總統就其職權相關之國家大政方針他可以得知情立法院同意然後他到立法院來所以第二項比較沒有問題因為是總統他主動想要來所以當然就是依原條文他自己認為他想要來報告的內容跟他職權行使相關第二項是沒有問題的"},{"start":5320.425,"end":5347.688,"text":"但第一項是立法院邀請總統來要邀請總統講什麼是我們在討論第一項是維持原條文還是民眾黨的版本我認為就憲法的授權這都是總統就是負責國防外交跟兩岸的議題這是非常清楚的所以原始條文就是立法院如果邀請總統來就是依據國家安全相關的國家大政方針"},{"start":5349.11,"end":5373.833,"text":"因為這樣才不會讓立委邀請總統來的議題是溢出總統的直接職權他是包山包海其實已經看到了這樣的狀況昨天在程序委員會不管是國民黨的提案或是民眾黨的提案當中寫到邀請未來的賴清德總統來到立法院國情報告的內容是像每一項"},{"start":5375.054,"end":5382.121,"text":"都溢出了總統的職權也就是每一項要問的都是行政院院長對立法院負責的選擇"},{"start":5383.942,"end":5412.541,"text":"所以為什麼我反對第一項的修正我認為還是要維持因為立法院要對於國家相關的所有的事項是對行政院長提出質詢如果立法院要發起邀請總統來就是很清楚跟行政院長他認為在行政院長的質詢當中沒有辦法獲得更清楚的國家安全相關的國家道戰方針才邀請總統來所以不能讓第一項改成現在的文字那就過蕩的包山包海"},{"start":5413.021,"end":5440.14,"text":"又重蹈覆轍、又重新去焊隔了憲法第五十三條跟五十七條就是行政院對立法院負責行政院作為國家最高行政機關所以我再講回來剛剛主席一直不讓我在十五條之一繼續發言我在這裡一併重複十五條之一我反對的理由是它違反憲法第五十三條以及違反憲法第五十七條"},{"start":5440.7,"end":5463.441,"text":"的原則對於立法院負責的是行政院院長所以第十五條之一讓國情報告成為常態化每年就必須要求總統一定要來這就是權力分立的一個漢格跟衝突好那十五條之二我也沒有辦法支持民眾黨團就是我剛剛所說的意見立法院邀請的話要focus在總統直接的職權國家安全相關的事項"},{"start":5466.572,"end":5479.481,"text":"總統第二項他自己願意來他可以比較open他想要跟國會對話什麼只要總統認為跟他職權相關他可以來發表所以我報告我的意見我沒有辦法同意民眾黨團的修正林委員主席我想今天我們委員會的協商我現在整個聽起來可能我們很難達成共識"},{"start":5490.583,"end":5497.222,"text":"所以我建議要講到院會再把它講清楚所以我建議全案保留"},{"start":5498.468,"end":5514.076,"text":"全案保留我們今天否則這樣的協商沒有沒有沒有我不是這樣所以我就是跟主席建議主席我很溫柔我是建議主席就這樣來做不會啦才剛開始才剛開始我們現在是在補進度阿因為委員會主席沒有討論到現在只好補進度阿好那請問那個民眾黨的想法"},{"start":5530.372,"end":5558.55,"text":"其實針對這些條文我覺得從前面這幾條的條文看起來就沒有太大爭議的部分譬如說剛剛第十五條都可以去扯到跟這個條文本身沒有關係的彈劾、罷免、不信任投票、復議然後連記名投票表決到底要怎麼進行"},{"start":5559.872,"end":5572.53,"text":"這些事情都要牽扯到條文裡面的討論所以看起來針對許多的條文事實上我覺得是沒有辦法達成什麼樣子的共識當然在整個發言的時間上"},{"start":5574.973,"end":5598.313,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職"},{"start":5600.726,"end":5625.017,"text":"不好意思首席副書記長他表達的意見事實上也值得主席來參採謝謝那既然就是國民黨團以及民眾黨團的想法應該是一致那我們既然大家都沒有共識那我們本案就全案你要做這樣裁決以前我先講一下"},{"start":5628.999,"end":5653.69,"text":"有委員提出了嗎?那我認為這樣做才行主席這個就很吊詭啦很吊詭就是說我們本來在委員會我們要逐條審查你們逐條保留你們全部都保留說有異議協商再來討論然後朝野協商然後變成繼續保留異議沒有共識送院會再說"},{"start":5655.25,"end":5673.899,"text":"這個實在是我們必須要向民眾負責啦委員會那以後就很簡單啦所有的院會裡面都可以不用討論然後直接全部都是來送入朝野協商朝野協商就說好大家一點都不一致全部保留"},{"start":5674.679,"end":5676.98,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5700.066,"end":5721.442,"text":"我要講的是說這個我們我們對於民主政治的一個基本的一個一個我們的一個一個基本理論根據就是說我們會相信討論他會產生一些結論這才是這就是為什麼這時候會有朝野協商的制度的產生就是如果都認為說講一講沒有共識那就保留"},{"start":5722.122,"end":5737.755,"text":"那這個我們其實就連這個委員會的什麼大體討論、主條討論他都好像變得沒有意義因為討論主席好像相信主席還有這個我們林士明委員好像相信說好像認為說所有討論都不可能會有結果也許真的是這樣"},{"start":5738.576,"end":5755.904,"text":"但是過去的朝野協商包括預算包括法案那就是需要很大的耐性這就是我們在每一黨的黨團幹部大家都很大耐性有時候協商到半夜在預算審查的時候逐目逐科就這樣在協商我相信林志明有參加過對"},{"start":5757.665,"end":5759.086,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會報告併案"},{"start":5788.205,"end":5789.266,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5808.819,"end":5832.295,"text":"主觀認為沒有共識今天是黨團的協商嘛那因為國民黨黨團以及民眾黨他們都表示希望他們都認為說沒有共識那希望全案就後面還沒走你怎麼知道沒有共識不是我現在在轉述另外兩個黨團的說法不叫做問我的意見你那25條也還沒啊26條也還沒啊"},{"start":5834.317,"end":5842.748,"text":"莊委員我再轉述兩個黨團的說法不是我的意見好不好所以我剛剛您再仔細聽一下我跟您報告一下我跟您報告一下他馬上會說好"},{"start":5847.932,"end":5869.898,"text":"我跟您報告一下中委員中委員我跟您報告一下我剛剛說的是國民黨黨團以及民眾黨他們表示說沒有共識希望全案保留送院會院會處理那我現在轉述的是那他們兩位的意見那你不要又扯到我身上來那委員"},{"start":5876.547,"end":5888.811,"text":"那個主席依協商是這樣啦齁因為您顯然都蠻偏聽的啦在場有鍾嘉斌召委、鍾瑞雄委員、有沈發慧委員、有吳思堯委員我們四位都主張因為委員會的主條討論被剝奪了我們在協商的時候可以好好來補進度、趕進度把它補回來我們有四位委員是這個意見"},{"start":5901.716,"end":5922.125,"text":"但是呢在場國民黨只有林思銘委員一位民眾黨只有黃國昌總召一位所以呢我們有四位委員的聲音要逐條討論那你為什麼偏聽只要聽兩位委員的主張呢而且我可以預言我可以預言大家不要輕信說今天打包協商的委員今天是黨團協商就是特別委員耶"},{"start":5925.706,"end":5951.989,"text":"我再發言我是主席我是主席主席請尊重我的發言時間好嗎請尊重我的發言時間好嗎我再發言我們今天叫做黨團協商不是個別委員如果今天如果今天沒有辦法主條討論那今天的進度就是到十五條之二好今天主條協商到十五條之二那您要再排下一次協商再針對十五條之三繼續協商那這樣我可以同意因為今天你們不想討論"},{"start":5953.215,"end":5977.822,"text":"協商就是這樣啊協商沒有講到一半在場多數的委員說我們都還要逐條討論然後另外的少數委員說我要打包那這樣什麼都被沒收掉嗎而且我可以預言我可以預言在聽線上直播的所有公民朋友我可以預言送到大會的時候或是送到韓國瑜委員所主持的朝野協商的時候一樣同樣的理由國民黨跟民眾黨要說討論很久了我們這裡只處理程序不用討論了直接議會表決"},{"start":5982.623,"end":5995.313,"text":"我可以預言就是這個結果就是這個結果一關一關拖過去我們在委員會的時候你們國民黨不就是這個理由嗎說哎呀有爭議啦送協商協商再討論就好結果今天再協商了又不給討論然後你說黨團協商不給討論就推給韓國瑜韓國瑜的朝野協商再討論就好我跟你預判以你們傅崐萁總召的阿爸在韓國瑜委員"},{"start":6008.303,"end":6034.805,"text":"院長所主持的協商一樣是不准討論直接處理程序不討論實質所以我堅持如果主席說今天到這裡15條之後討論到這裡好那今天協商到這裡我們只協商了三個條文後面沒有你要繼續再排協商啊我們等你啊我們願意啊我們願意啊沒有說協商只討論兩條就說整個打包的沒有"},{"start":6035.768,"end":6038.203,"text":"不要重蹈覆轍不要繼續二把"},{"start":6040.578,"end":6065.979,"text":"所以如果主席要裁示要打爆協商就是到剛剛的第二條第十五條之一跟十五條之二到這樣就協商到這裡還要再另排協商的時間對啊再排協商的時間啊早起剛來就是這樣啊領人民的薪水就是要好好開會逐條審查委員會已經被沒收了協商不能再被沒收討論啊我們現在在趕進度欸"},{"start":6070.062,"end":6088.07,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲"},{"start":6094.8,"end":6103.823,"text":"這各個委員會都是這樣嘛今天就是處理討論的三條保留另外沒有討論的再擇其協商但是無法達成共識也只有前面三條後面可能有共識啊不要放棄自我不要放棄自我"},{"start":6126.243,"end":6151.12,"text":"不要放棄自己不要放棄我們的權利不要放棄大家的智慧透過討論可以匯去共識不要放棄好嗎不要輕言放棄好嗎這麼沒動頭這麼沒動頭不用擔心對繼續討論雖然我也覺得很痛苦今天提案委員居然都沒有在場說明害我們要隔空抓藥要試想他提案的緣由是什麼"},{"start":6152.813,"end":6176.863,"text":"那正因為今天提案的委員都沒有來所以主席我們應該折騎在協商折騎在協商那有打包的對不對你以為在吃吃菜買喔打包以為在吃菜買喔我是餓到還沒吃午飯啦不能打包啦原住民的法案在協商的時候民進黨不來的很多次啊"},{"start":6177.89,"end":6187.257,"text":"委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等十五條及第四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲"},{"start":6202.282,"end":6225.637,"text":"送給院長協商主席要停在15條之二那就再著急協商我們接著15條之三繼續開始你不要到這邊來亂出草好不好是你讓我發言的話都不會講本來沒有要發言你這個叫白目謝謝你讓我發言你當頭目你當白目我覺得我沒有資格當頭目那個有標準的不是隨便可以當的"},{"start":6226.926,"end":6229.788,"text":"主席責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任"},{"start":6246.889,"end":6267.379,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「立法院職"},{"start":6273.522,"end":6286.292,"text":"那本日本案就五個主題因為人帶繼續溝通取得共識後續會依立法院職權行使法第十二章相關規定辦理再擇其協商再擇其協商"},{"start":6293.679,"end":6313.831,"text":"撬課的同學沒來上課老師說這個學期都不上課直接畢業有這種事情嗎?撬課的因為今天不上課的理由是因為有同學撬課所以不用上課然後大家直接畢業有這種嗎?要令則其協商、要令則其協商不要這麼鬧劇傅崐萁沒有來你也嚇成這樣嗎?"},{"start":6320.816,"end":6344.83,"text":"副婚期沒有來你也嚇成這樣嗎?抗議喔主席我們是要求另擇其協商另擇其協商廣大的公民朋友大家要看到翹課的同學沒有來上課老師說我們就都不用上課了要擇其協商擇其協商"},{"start":6353.849,"end":6378.375,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文"},{"start":6379.167,"end":6386.423,"text":"委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、委員翁曉玲等四十四條條文修正草案、"}]}},{"id":"15892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15892","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc35675eb71f9bc6ae0cc1067dc387cc1f3be8d109af184be427250d35a17ab1fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-08","start_time":"2024-05-08T08:31:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:36:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":7454,"委員發言時間":"08:31:46 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鍾嘉賓委員開了兩場公聽會吳宗憲委員開了一場專報一場公聽會國民黨的國會改革法案被充分的社會大眾檢視然後接下來我們才進到逐條審查"},{"start":2040.063,"end":2068.012,"text":"我要再次強調這不是羅志強標準這不是國民黨標準這是民進黨標準既然民進黨設定了國會法案必須有公聽會充分社會討論之後才能夠進行逐條的討論跟審查那抱歉今天在這邊本席在這邊也是堅持跟呼籲民進黨的版本不用怕社會大眾檢驗"},{"start":2069.764,"end":2087.157,"text":"先開一場專報三場公聽會之後然後再來審查就像國民黨的這個國會改革版本民進黨也要求開公聽會找了像林志傑這些民進黨的一些比較友善的學者"},{"start":2088.157,"end":2113.618,"text":"然後呢對國民黨的版本有非常非常嚴格的檢視。那為什麼這個過程就不能在民進黨版的國會法案當中來去進行跟履行呢?啊就要進到我們國會我們司法委員會直接透過司法委員會在社會大眾沒有公聽會沒有專報充分了解之下就吵吵的討論吵吵的通過呢?"},{"start":2114.881,"end":2132.24,"text":"所以在這邊針對今天我們民進黨的召委排審的所謂的幾個國會法案我在這邊的呼籲很簡單我請我們的召委啊告訴大家啦今天就不用審了啦先開完三場公聽會跟一場專門報告"},{"start":2134.162,"end":2149.908,"text":"社會大眾有共同的瞭解對民進黨的法案都很熟悉該有的意見該有的批評不要舉個最簡單例子為什麼民進黨的國會改革的法案版本裡面要特別把說謊官員的處罰拿掉呢?"},{"start":2151.008,"end":2178.419,"text":"難道民進黨的國會改革就是鼓勵官員說謊呢?這件事情要讓社會大眾、讓學者、專家來公平啊!也許你們很有意見啊!官員說謊權是神聖、不可侵犯啊!拿出來讓大家來討論嘛!所以今天我的要求跟主張很簡單啦!如果說民進黨不排公聽會、不排專報你要進到司法委員會我要捍衛民進黨當時的一個主張的尊嚴"},{"start":2179.739,"end":2181.223,"text":"也就繼續散會了啦 以上"},{"start":2185.342,"end":2211.98,"text":"這邊再次的跟羅委員說明事實上羅委員一再的扭曲本席所召開的兩場公聽會的內容事實上連羅委員你本身就你剛剛所提到的事情在4月11號的時候當天林志傑公聽會的學者代表也就跟您當面確認過了我想有興趣您可以再回去回顧一下那一天的會議的實況錄影"},{"start":2213.621,"end":2229.088,"text":"那再次強調的4月10號、4月11號有本席排定的兩場公聽會所討論的含色範圍就是包含國會職權的行使跟國會的議事規則和立法委員的行為。"},{"start":2230.208,"end":2250.355,"text":"那麼這些相關的內容都體現在本席所律定的提綱當中而應邀來出席的與會的學者專家學者也充分的拿到了目前各位委員手上所看到的版本所以那兩場公聽會所討論的所有國會改革方案已經含設了包含"},{"start":2251.015,"end":2272.398,"text":""},{"start":2272.955,"end":2292.465,"text":"四月十號、四月十一號本席所排定的兩場公聽會並沒有就國民黨以外的版本進行公聽會的學者專家的意見諮詢。這一點還是要再三再三的說明。有興趣的委員或者是朋友可以去看一看四月十號、四月十一號"},{"start":2293.285,"end":2322.295,"text":"來﹖"},{"start":2322.967,"end":2347.927,"text":"主席各位委員羅志祥每次講話都不針對主題不亂挑釁只有那一套邏輯攻擊邏輯我上禮拜就跟你講過前幾天你喔口才變節反應也很快當然是你不要全部用到fight的方面去你要用到正途你是年輕人還有未來的人所以講話不要亂講一通當然大家在講"},{"start":2351.136,"end":2370.921,"text":"他們有官員要處罰這個說謊官員,請問今天審查什麼法?立法委員行為法,實在耶穌立法人的行為,你再扯到什麼要處罰官員?你牛頭不要對馬腳,你講的不是在這裡,今天請看今天審什麼?"},{"start":2372.361,"end":2395.615,"text":"立法委員行為,立法委員行為要怎麼規範約束嗎?很簡單啦,就有關於利益衝突,不是黃昌一直講要加強利益衝突的規範嗎?法規範嗎?那在這裡就是說所有可能,他立法委員有利益衝突的關係人先羅列清楚哪些是關係人嘛,哪些是必須被"},{"start":2397.177,"end":2406.829,"text":"閱讀以及起訴對象這要講清楚說這跟審判官員有什麼關係。第二個綠充的範圍是什麼要講清楚嘛。第三密會的時候要怎麼好規範嘛。所以請"},{"start":2414.175,"end":2430.239,"text":"你看一下今天這中文很簡單,你看一下秦總裁的功績嘛,有同樣的功績每天講那個話,然後播給你們的選民直播播給你們選民看,選民你以為選民在資訊路上唱會差這麼多嗎?老人家說你寫什麼消費?啊就是今天行為法有什麼懲罰關聯?"},{"start":2436.52,"end":2459.593,"text":"行為法是要懲罰議員以及助理啦,要搞什麼對象。所以今天我們要談清楚,怎麼沒有公聽會,假如不是我們堅持要開公聽會的話,你們只要開半天,一次半天公聽會啊。吳宗憲委員在這裡啊。後來,而且沒有涵蓋韓社要所有你們不會改革的版本。所以鍾家斌委員才又開了兩次公聽會。"},{"start":2461.713,"end":2487.733,"text":"包括今天的都含澀進去,其實今天很簡單嘛,如果關於立法委員而已嘛。所以今天我們要談清楚,不然喔,稍微我不會說,然後講錯一直撲一撲,對你將來的政治發展能夠在健全上也有損害。坦白講,我這裡是非常承信你未來應該是要把自己做研究人,一個對國家社會有用的人嘛。所以公務員委員會已經含澀了,已經擺明夠了。"},{"start":2490.427,"end":2510.273,"text":"那今天假如今天這個行為法,我們先進入主條,然後出委員會。出委員會以後,民進黨以後還有意見,你再看公聽會開幾場,大家都沒有意見啊。畢竟三度以前,表決前大家又可以再來開公聽會都可以啊。所以希望針對問題回答問題好不好。好謝謝,那麼有請吳委員、施堯。程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2521.299,"end":2521.499,"text":"謝謝主席。"},{"start":2551.279,"end":2575.91,"text":"我們要繼續一事無成嗎?我們要繼續重蹈覆轍嗎?我們要繼續再一次的呈現在國人面前立法委員坐在會議室然後失位速參、薪水小偷、不實質審查阻卻了委員會中心主義嗎?我們真的不能繼續再空耗下去了。"},{"start":2576.79,"end":2592.644,"text":"所以幾點回應第一點有關於今天排審的民進黨版的立法委員行為法議事規則民進黨版都有我們的版本個別委員有范雲委員的版本及賴瑞隆委員的版本"},{"start":2593.405,"end":2597.189,"text":"今天要處理的只有16個條文。16個條文沒有那麼複雜。而且16個條文都已經含括在4月10號、4月11號兩場公聽會的主題。都已經在公聽會有藉由學者專家一起來討論過。"},{"start":2615.726,"end":2630.418,"text":"所以羅志強委員一直在說還要再開公聽會那請問4月10號4月11號的公聽會如果我沒有記錯您也有來登記發言啊你也是很認真有來參加公聽會啊所以您當然很清楚4月10號跟11號的兩場公聽會就已經具體針對今天的兩個法案進行過公共的對話"},{"start":2636.943,"end":2658.299,"text":"所以我們不要再重蹈覆轍今天只有16個條文兩個法案內容非常的明確它不複雜它聚焦於三大部分第一部分就是反性騷的條款MeToo的條款再清楚也不過了國人的理解也非常的明確"},{"start":2659.46,"end":2664.905,"text":"第二個重點在於秘密會議我們如何規範立法委員列席人員還有行政官員如果參與國會的秘密會議他如何要做好洩密的防範這是一致性的規範不是指規範在野黨的委員這是規範全體113個立法委員所以這沒有針對性"},{"start":2683.582,"end":2701.501,"text":"所以我們不能再發生有立委任意的去泄密的這種行為就這個條文議事規則的修正社會的理解也非常的充分完全所以我們第三個重點今天討論的就是立法委員行為法裡面要不要針對"},{"start":2703.24,"end":2707.243,"text":"讓社會看到國會的改革是真正的自我嚴格要求自我來履行利益迴避然後做到全責相符有權就要有責的國會改革"},{"start":2730.623,"end":2744.568,"text":"所以今天的三個主題都非常的清楚而明確。我相信社會對於MeToo條款絕對支持。我相信社會對於國會一再的發生泄密的事件也認為要修法強化內規來予以彌補。"},{"start":2746.849,"end":2749.891,"text":"第三（我相信社會也絕對支持要讓立法院的利益迴避能夠跟上時代與時俱進嚴謹的自我來要求所以三個主題一點都不複雜只有16個條文"},{"start":2762.958,"end":2776.476,"text":"他不需要在公聽會他不需要在空轉他也不需要在凝聚社會共識他的條文真的非常的清楚明瞭我相信以在野黨的幾位委員你們的高智商你們的專業度理解"},{"start":2779.48,"end":2801.152,"text":""},{"start":2801.252,"end":2803.113,"text":"謝謝吳委員思瑤接下來請林委員思銘成語發言時間3分鐘"},{"start":2831.997,"end":2842.391,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們今天召委在排這個禮拜一以及今天原本排定的職權行使法我想我們都春分中中"},{"start":2843.854,"end":2867.935,"text":"我想我們對於這個不管是立法委員行為法以及我們的議事規則相關的規定那這幾個法案我想大概大家也充分的有表達意見那我個人的看法我認為羅志強委員一直要求要召開公聽會我想這個絕對是非常合理而且有他的一個意義"},{"start":2869.276,"end":2884.637,"text":"因為這個行為法所牽涉的範疇非常的廣泛,尤其他有很多違憲的一個一議的一個條文。比如說我們立法委員議員處理到中港澳必須接受審查,"},{"start":2885.798,"end":2911.757,"text":"這個有非常重大的一個違憲爭議尤其對於我們憲法保障我們人民的遷徙自由這個有很大的一個被解讀為違憲的一個疑義我想現在是什麼時代啊到一個國家就會洩密現在是通訊資通訊發達的一個時代要洩密不是一定要去那個國家科技這麼發達一通電話"},{"start":2914.059,"end":2917.045,"text":"一個簡訊一個LINE一個微信"},{"start":2918.154,"end":2946.785,"text":"就可以,這個如你們想要,你們想要立法的一個目的說要防止立法委員什麼議員助理去到那個國家會有洩密的一個疑慮啊。所以這個牽涉到違憲爭議的一個條文是不是要透過我們的公聽會讓專家學者來充分的表達他們的看法跟意見作為我們修法的參考,我認為這絕對有它的必要性嘛。"},{"start":2947.225,"end":2973.439,"text":"所以我們才會一再的要求針對民進黨的版本不管是今天我們要審的立法委員行為法或者議事規則等相關的規定還有立法委員的職權行使法民進黨的版本你們就不要去畏懼害怕來召開公聽會讓我們的專家學者對民進黨的版本提出他們專業的一個建議"},{"start":2974.858,"end":2991.217,"text":"我想這個對我們的立法委員的修法都是非常有參考意義跟價值的至於范雲委員的性平專法這個我們當然我們也是很尊重我們也是對這個您性平的修法表示肯定但是就是在立法技術上面"},{"start":2991.778,"end":3013.465,"text":"是不是我們還要在我們的行為法裡面去疊床架屋去再把這些相關的規定除了性平三法以外又很針對性的對我們的立法委員去訂這樣的相關的一個對應的法案我想是所以我想這部分也是可以透過公聽會我們請專家學者來表達他的一個意見"},{"start":3015.186,"end":3035.959,"text":"所以我想我在這邊真的就是希望民進黨的委員我們如果今天要審查這個法案在這個專家學者沒有充分的討論以前我們還是建議先召開公聽會再來審以上謝謝好謝謝林委員市民的程序發言再來請翁委員小林程序發言時間3分鐘"},{"start":3045.672,"end":3063.662,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我非常支持羅志祥委員還有本黨的其他委員所提出來的訴求要加開公聽會加開公聽會的這個最主要的原因就是因為本次的修法基本上"},{"start":3064.462,"end":3080.265,"text":""},{"start":3080.365,"end":3090.708,"text":"閱讀委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范雲等16人擬具《立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案》案。閱讀委員范"},{"start":3108.033,"end":3129.06,"text":" ）一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14"},{"start":3129.94,"end":3139.974,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3140.999,"end":3145.522,"text":"二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具 «立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案案。二）委員范雲等16人擬具 «立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3168.656,"end":3188.366,"text":"我其實也很同意剛剛這個吳志堯委員所講的,我們要規範立法委員他的洩密的事件。那請問到現在為止趙天麟委員的這個小三事件有好好的去查清楚嗎?到底有沒有洩密?"},{"start":3190.367,"end":3207.5,"text":""},{"start":3208.342,"end":3208.362,"text":"閱讀委員會長"},{"start":3226.009,"end":3226.35,"text":"議員們的行為法是否適當?"},{"start":3249.713,"end":3250.853,"text":"謝謝翁委員小林,接下來請柯總裁建銘程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":3281.315,"end":3294.149,"text":"來,沒關係啦,你先講沒關係,沒有我?注意聽啦,注意聽啦,好不好?其實講穿了嘛,就是假開公聽會之名嘛。"},{"start":3295.541,"end":3322.667,"text":"刑阻外、立法院審查之詞嘛。然後接下來就是要三會同意。這個我那一招在胡雄總會比劍嘛。我們在這裡這麼久還不知道你們在耍什麼呢?問題現在暫時離席已經交代好了。等一下三會同意他就出現了,你放心好不好。所以這很清楚嘛。民事民委員也是法律人。民事法律人我們都親如相親。"},{"start":3324.264,"end":3351.467,"text":"我坦白講,你開了這麼久了,人們已有幾乎千禧的自由。憲法有關於第七條到二十四條,很簡單,你看一下,文職又非常白話,人們的錢已一五。那自由的錢平等,第七條平等的錢,第八條自由的錢嘛。這現在第十條幾乎千禧的自由,乃至後面有命運通行自由等等嘛。"},{"start":3352.383,"end":3379.778,"text":"但是呢,千萬二十三條你要看清楚,它是有法律保障原則啊。人們想有這麼多權利,但相對義務它應該怎麼,有什麼相對義務呢?二十四條公務人員,對公務人員有些限制嘛。所以二十三條,注意看,我那天在這裡一直講過啦。防止妨礙他人自由,注意聽,避免整體委員案。"},{"start":3381.027,"end":3402.422,"text":"而又社會秩序促進公共利益。這種情況底下當然對於這個所謂自由權有一個比喻原則嘛。社會國家也是有一個比喻原則嘛。何來說你會牽涉你跑到大陸去呢?那你跑到大陸去的時候對於國家有利益衝突的時候"},{"start":3404.023,"end":3414.808,"text":"有緊急違反的時候,對社會公共資訊有問題的時候,是不是有一個比例原則,這個叫做有法律保有。"},{"start":3416.641,"end":3437.412,"text":"所以不要再,你要講話你是法議人,不然歐日強你們都是法議人,那歐日強就算了,歐日強反正就是叫他講什麼,他就同樣的事情一直講,我不對其他也無所謂,但是他這種算鬥爭,另外一種的鬥爭嘛,我們都了解,沒有關係,但是請大家,"},{"start":3438.633,"end":3453.178,"text":"憲法條文看清楚,第一條到二十四條,你請看二十三條,這種很簡單的事情,你還質疑有法律人,他還在說今天要做什麼,講的文部隊長也在講。"},{"start":3454.406,"end":3471.073,"text":"今天就是有關於立法委員行為的問題嘛。行為要不要規範?當立法委員的行為他有利衝突的時候要規範?關係人是哪些人?他利衝突裡面包括是財產和其他的財產,都是要規範的嗎?"},{"start":3472.685,"end":3500.824,"text":"所以對於到中國出來國家命運的時候,我們就是立法院也有一些法規範嘛。這個都是,所有法都是這樣。那不然的話為什麼要先立一些營業命運法,然後人民關係條約,很多法都是這樣啊。所以各位今天在這裡,我們即將看到國民黨,今天是最後,這個有關也有齁,我們稍微排到最後一天啦,所以今天有三個法全部排在這裡。"},{"start":3502.25,"end":3527.296,"text":"行為法依照規則乃至於立法委員行為法請貴重耐心我們今天好好開到晚上12點鐘以前不要再提倡的東西,再提倡的東西漏氣了好不好那今天就好好談嘛你要講你所提的問題到立法委員行為法的時候我可以回答你請針對現在的主題來回答"},{"start":3530.541,"end":3555.502,"text":"來接下來程旭發言請羅志強委員時間3分鐘請那個我們交換一下對我講我剛有舉手不好意思不好意思"},{"start":3556.155,"end":3556.778,"text":"接下來就請吳釗偉程序發言三分鐘。"},{"start":3561.431,"end":3585.303,"text":"好 謝謝那這邊再跟那個柯總要報告一下柯總早一直講那個比例原則我在這邊跟各位報告一個點沒關係我講錯的話可以找任何一個法律學者來挑戰我我們說人沒有遷徙的自由也就是說我們不可以加任何限制在遷徙上面除非你有符合法律保留原則"},{"start":3586.423,"end":3610.996,"text":"我想這句話沒有問題也就是說原本國家在我們憲法中他是給人民有遷徙的自由這時候如果我們要跟人民說你的遷徙上面要加上任何限制的話必須要有法律明文規定但是我們在訂定法律的時候必須考量到憲法23條的比例原則我想柯總召一直在講的是這個"},{"start":3612.057,"end":3620.267,"text":"當然柯總交對於憲法23條背得非常的完整已經是到95%以上的數字都背得對了齁但是"},{"start":3621.601,"end":3644.947,"text":"沒問題對柯永昭非常的厲害那但是呢我們比例原則在學理上面我們比例原則他要符合幾個合適性必要性以及狹義的比例原則這三點是我們所謂的比例原則的核心概念那從比例原則來看我上次有特別提到大家說公職人員或者是公務員"},{"start":3646.067,"end":3656.357,"text":""},{"start":3656.67,"end":3679.24,"text":"你第一個你就先給他扣帽子第二個為什麼我們早期對於有一些法律對於一些人去中國大陸我們有很多的限制因為那個時代並沒有像現在有這麼多的通訊軟體以及遠端的視訊所以很多時候他們機密的交付他必須要去第三地或者是去中國大陸交付這一點我沒有意見"},{"start":3680.06,"end":3709.44,"text":"但是在現在這個時代我們任何法律的規範我們要考量到它的目的性是什麼它的手段性是什麼有沒有對於人權的侵害最輕微的方式就可以解決的情況下而你要去立法去用更嚴重的方式去限制人民的遷移自由這個就會違反憲法的比例原則那今天我在上次已經講過了從各種通訊軟體在這個時代你要用洩密這個帽子去扣這些人的時候"},{"start":3710.48,"end":3736.925,"text":"他們不能用那些通訊軟體泄密嗎?那可以的情況下誰會還刻意大剌剌的跑到中國大陸去告訴你們大家我要來這裡泄密了所以你去限制這個沒有意義除非你今天要講一個更合理的概念所以那一天我跟陳柏洋委員說你不是不能設這個法而是你要有足夠的理由來說服我們你今天設這個法的目的性存在今天泄密"},{"start":3737.685,"end":3763.403,"text":"我講的用通訊軟體都可以做到的事情結果你叫我們人不可以過去那你不是拿二次大戰以前的概念來到今天立法嗎我們很多法律的規範當年是因為沒有通訊軟體所以有這些規範但是今天已經不是了大家都知道視訊傳檔案什麼都可以用通訊軟體那我不懂你這個要求的目的性在哪裡所以我個人認為甚至都有違憲之餘啦好謝謝各位"},{"start":3765.882,"end":3783.919,"text":"好,謝謝吳昭偉的發言。因為剛剛有表示要發程序發言的,有包括我們那個副總召。是不是跟副總召講一下,因為他有登記要程序,不是登記,他要表達要程序發言。在這裡主席跟各位委員說明一下,因為我們現在是大體討論登記發言。"},{"start":3786.101,"end":3786.121,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":3804.213,"end":3824.86,"text":"告知不在場,我們就沒有辦法讓你程序發言。是不是因為副委員的副總召的程序發言,看他不在現場,那我們就不用等待了。那在這裡做一個,沒有沒有,因為你剛剛是讓給,我有把你寫在下來,因為剛剛是吳委員。會有啦,程序發言一定會尊重啦。"},{"start":3826.459,"end":3851.434,"text":"現在大家手上有拿到一個委職員工進入大陸地區之申請標準作業程序。這個資料是不是都包括了?周秘書長是不是拿到了?周秘書長你看一下。因為今天的程序內容討論到一些關於我們接下來要審的立法委員行為法以及立法院的議事規則。"},{"start":3852.554,"end":3878.562,"text":"那這一份呢,您看一下這份是監察院所訂定的。那監察院本身對於他們在監察院請辭職權的時候有涉及到秘密、涉密人員,他們有做涉密人員的定義跟規管。然後涉密人員包括委員、職員跟員工,如果要進出大陸地區,依照監察院的內部規則,他們也是要依照相關的法令來提出申報。"},{"start":3879.822,"end":3908.34,"text":"那我想一下,民進黨,我們立法院有沒有訂這個?我們有訂,但是沒有港海監裁那一句話。不過我們有查過,因為連日有查過,所以舉個例來講,像我政務聯演就是第一,當中文有在提的時候我有報告。像我就跟前面的民進黨是可以列進去。我們立法院有訂這樣的規則。我們也有訂一個。是不是提供給我們與會的委員了解一下?"},{"start":3909.036,"end":3931.408,"text":"議員館長"},{"start":3932.043,"end":3941.628,"text":"總委員當天的情況,現在連署正在簽上來,要給匯報。我們也都查過了。立法院本身自己也有訂了一個立法院進入大陸地區的申請標準作為一件事。我們沒有審這一個。請問要多久?"},{"start":3954.673,"end":3955.874,"text":"我們接下來是由吳委員施堯來程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":3982.229,"end":3987.554,"text":"謝謝主席給我再一次程序發言的時間。其實我覺得就何妨直接進入大體討論了吧,甚至逐條都可以。為什麼呢?以剛剛上場來輪流程序發言的幾位國民黨委員,包括吳宗憲、張偉,包括林思銘書記長,包括我們的羅志強委員還有翁小林委員,其實你們已經實質就要討論的內容已經發表高見了。"},{"start":4007.471,"end":4022.006,"text":"對於我們今天要討論的立法委員行為法也好,議事規則也好,都已經有基本的掌握了。所以呢,你們都能夠具體針對內容來提出你們不同的意見,這是很好的事情。這就是我們的大體討論或除條討論要進行的階段。"},{"start":4025.41,"end":4035.493,"text":"大家針對每一個條文的理解您大可以提出您的同意反對或是支持或是不支持的意見這就是委員會中心主義所以我不曉得現在進入這個冗長的程序發言的時間何不就實質的內容來進行對話呢"},{"start":4045.035,"end":4071.949,"text":"那我也要說剛剛吳宗憲、昭偉已經離開座位了吳昭偉可能現在這個民進黨大家都對於沈博洋委員非常的針對性今天的條文沒有沈博洋委員的法案OK今天在處理的是民進黨版的立法委員行為法在處理的是民進黨版的議事規則以及賴瑞隆委員的立法委員行為法范雲委員的立法委員行為法並沒有沈博洋的兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":4074.491,"end":4095.101,"text":"所以在做這樣子的批判之前可能把今天討論的主題也清楚的來對焦一下。那賴瑞隆委員的立法委員行為法確實有一個條文他是有處理到那是不是有語文這個重要的證物的人員就是立法委員行為法第十條的修正案。"},{"start":4096.681,"end":4115.594,"text":"况若要前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開,其報備方式由立法院定之。若違反前兩項規定的話,紀律委員會就可以立即調查。是有這個條文,但是請不要牛頭不對馬嘴。這個是賴瑞隆委員的版本。"},{"start":4116.734,"end":4138.254,"text":"省博洋委員的版本呢 again again again昨天在程序委員會再次被國民黨跟民眾黨聯手阻卻在程序委員會的排案之列我們再一次覺得非常的遺憾所以說到秘密會議剛剛大家也講什麼通訊軟體很方便啊不需要人到第三地啊就要洩密也就可以洩密"},{"start":4139.515,"end":4143.658,"text":"這不就是代表我們正應當好好來面對我們對立法委員行為法怎麼去規範立委不能胡亂泄密的行為嗎?連心態都要重整重建啊。請看看民進黨的議事規則的條文。我們有三個條文而這些條文的執行我們透過非常長時間的討論。"},{"start":4160.231,"end":4180.047,"text":"例如說第47條的第三項我們具體針對規範的對象秘密會議的規範對象不只是立法委員還有列席人員還有會場的員工禁止攜帶任何可以可供哪些行為有可能構成泄密呢就是抄錄影印錄音錄影"},{"start":4181.308,"end":4184.853,"text":"厲（二）委員范雲等18人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4197.89,"end":4222.933,"text":"特殊需求的前向人員因身心障礙而有需求,因為他需要一些輔具,經主席同意者得使用相關器材作為輔具。我用這一個條文的內容要來告訴大家,今天要討論的是在立法院裡面的秘密會議各種形式的管控事項。而且民進黨版是周延到身心障礙者他的輔具是需要被排除的。"},{"start":4223.593,"end":4233.344,"text":"然後我們需要被管制的項目因應新科技的發達剛剛各位委員都講到新科技發達有好多可能超入之方便所以因應新科技我們剛剛有好多的面向是經過民進黨版跟學者專家討論的恩賜"},{"start":4241.031,"end":4267.537,"text":"厲定出來的所以各位國民黨委員如果有高見歡迎在逐條的時候提出更具體的我們好好來自我約束好好來落實國會的保密事項所以我不好意思我要佔用程序發言的時間來講條文因為基本上我覺得很多委員對於條文的理解已經掌握了ABC但如果可以掌握到XYZ我們就可以很快的聚焦來討論"},{"start":4268.997,"end":4296.97,"text":"所以呢沒有問題的我看看各位委員都準備好對於條文的理解隨時right now就可以進行主條討論我們不要再浪費民脂民膏第12天的議程不要再重蹈覆轍真的我看羅志強委員也準備充分啊林思明委員也都是有理解啊謝龍介大哥還沒發言但我想你一切都了然於心然後翁曉琳委員剛剛可以就具體的條文提出您的觀點"},{"start":4298.894,"end":4304.839,"text":"為什麼?不要害怕!出來打球!而且大家都做好準備了!我們就逐條討論,謝謝!"},{"start":4307.489,"end":4324.804,"text":"好,謝謝委員施堯的程序發言。事實上已經觸及到我們今天要排審的民進黨團旁板的立法院職權刑事法第52條跟立法院議事規則的第47條。好,那程序發言部分有審委員發會登記。好,時間三分鐘,請。"},{"start":4338.055,"end":4365.247,"text":"主席、各位同仁,今天本來我是有跟莊瑞雄委員大家說我們今天就不要發言了,大家說就好了。說來說去都說一樣的,上禮拜大體來訪也一樣。但是事實上有時候,我們做事的人有時候在賣董的,現在坐在這裡賣董,起來說兩句。因為這個齁,我們在整個過程裡面齁,我一直聽到這個遷徙自由、憲法保障遷徙自由,我一聽到遷徙自由這個字我就抽出來。"},{"start":4366.141,"end":4380.119,"text":"我實在是,這個我法律不是讀得很好啦齁,雖然我是法律系畢業,但是我法律不是讀得很好。用遷徙自由來討論這一條,是不是大家在場也這麼多法學溯宴,會不會覺得有點糟糕啊?"},{"start":4382.402,"end":4395.057,"text":"你去跟軍營門口的憲兵講說想遷徙自由啊,說我要進去遷徙自由啊。那你說去旋轉門的這些官員你跟他講說,欸我有就業的自由,你為什麼這個給我限制旋轉門呢?如果對法律保留,好來我就跟你討論嘛。我們現在就在討論法律要不要保留啊。"},{"start":4402.225,"end":4422.178,"text":"阿你不讓我們討論嘛!你不讓我們討論嘛!我們要討論!我們要討論法律要不要保留嘛!你可以說比例原則,你們覺得不符合比例原則,那我們就在討論的時候來討論符不符合比例原則嘛!要不然照你們講說哪牽起自由,所以不能訂這一條,那兩岸人民關係條例、地球條例事實上是在訂心生的齁?還是心生的齁?"},{"start":4426.876,"end":4435.687,"text":"我就是法律系,我是你們被法律系人笑啦,我跟你講,沒關係沒關係,我很尊重你,我發言的時候,我們可以來辦一個辯論啦齁。這個本來就,我們今天就是要討論,我們要不要用法律保留嘛。"},{"start":4445.762,"end":4468.089,"text":"那接下來我們才來討論說那這個規定符不符合比例原則嘛,要不然我們人民關係條例裡面,那人民關係條例規定的這些人,縣市長什麼這些人,他們不是報備,他們要申請欸。我們立法,我們今天的立法院行為刑事法也完全沒有限制你去,只是你要報備。哪裡限制了遷徙自由?沒有禁止你去喔!"},{"start":4469.332,"end":4492.106,"text":"然後再來又講說現在通訊軟體這麼發達還要用這個來限制還限制你不能去我用通訊軟體我就可以洩密了現在科技這麼發達你要刺探軍機需要走到軍營裡面去嗎那你就說那以後軍營都不要門禁了我們軍事基地都不要門禁了現在通訊軟體這麼發達我們根本就不用進去就可以了那你還門禁什麼意思"},{"start":4494.685,"end":4503.131,"text":"這種邏輯齁,這是完全令人費解啦,完全令人費解。現在通訊軟體這麼發達,要舔共用通訊軟體舔共就好,為什麼要在會期中還組一團還要過去勒?把通訊軟體扯來這個基本的這些倫理規範,我覺得這個就實在是離譜了啦齁。當然我是覺得啦,我講這麼多也不用聽啦,"},{"start":4521.547,"end":4536.762,"text":"因為重點不是看我們在說什麼啦不是聽我們說什麼是看大家在做什麼這幾天下來我們看不用聽國民黨在講什麼也不用聽民進黨在講什麼你要看國民黨在做什麼"},{"start":4537.998,"end":4557.661,"text":"國民黨在做就是一早動員來提然後準備提商會動議不讓法案討論就是這樣子嘛這個就是最簡單的其他都是理由啦羅志強很聰明他花了很多時間想很多理由然後再來再來這個這個大家想很多理由但其實這些理由都不重要重要的是他不讓我們開會不讓民進黨的法條審查就這樣子所以現在兩現在在這個國會裡面我認為說政黨互相之間的尊重蕩然無存"},{"start":4568.366,"end":4595.361,"text":"過去國會裡面大家在怎麼相互尊重為什麼我們設兩個召委就是你不是說說每個委員會召委就一定是多數黨人當召委少數黨人會當召委然後尊重每一個召委排案的權利大家來討論結果你們一而再再而三我們中召委所排的案子你們來提三位動議今天的假動每天早上一來假動就是要提三位動議一來就是要提三位動議"},{"start":4597.412,"end":4623.432,"text":"是為了不開會而來,不是為了開會而來。所以我們不用聽國民黨講什麼,我們要看他們做什麼。以上。好,謝謝沈委員。因為沈委員剛剛的程序發言事實上也觸及到的失智討論的內容。其實並不在,剛剛在討論的什麼遷徙啦、限制附中啦,那個都不是今天我們要排審的法案的含色範圍。今天法案排審的含色範圍大概就是以秘密會議的規範為主。"},{"start":4625.333,"end":4654.074,"text":"那先有秘密會議規範了誰是涉密人員才有其他法條對於涉密人員是否到其他地區或國家要有所樣的程序這才是這樣那跟委員會報告一下目前我們已經拿到了那個立法院秘書處所提供的立法院職員進入大陸地區之申請標準作業程序注意這是只有職員那監察院的是委員職員和員工我想這個是還是有點不同"},{"start":4654.474,"end":4672.444,"text":"那這個資料就請大家參考那接下來還是請大家針對今天我們要進入到大體討論和主條討論的三個法草案包括立法委員行為法、立法院職員刑事法跟立法院議事規則就這個部分我們要進行大體討論之前讓大家程序發言"},{"start":4673.004,"end":4698.651,"text":"那接下來陳玉凡因為有那個羅委員羅委員剛剛的有表示我們請羅委員陳玉凡三分鐘再來是柯委員然後還有翁委員有登記有登記再來林委員柯總召你又在罵自己了剛剛柯總召講了一句名言啊不要拿公聽會作為阻擾審查的藉口啊"},{"start":4699.667,"end":4720.084,"text":"那柯總召 這句話我還給你啊 欸一個月前欸 也沒多久欸 記性也不要太差民進黨坐在那邊是講什麼 國民黨在提的國會改革的法案提出來的時候 你們要求是社會大眾要多溝通 要讓大家了解國民黨版的國會改革法案裡面的問題"},{"start":4721.445,"end":4741.276,"text":"所以我跟你講我今天反而都覺得說吳宗憲、昭偉我要說你兩句了啦你看看今天是什麼樣子你對人家那麼好對不對他們一講就吳宗憲這樣就說好啦真的我覺得社會溝通也很重要所以國民黨版的法案基本上吳昭偉排了一場專報再排一場公聽會我跟你講吳昭偉就是人太好結果民進黨又說哎呀一場公聽會不夠啦怎麼夠啊"},{"start":4749.904,"end":4773.118,"text":"這樣子社會大眾不了解啊!國會改革何其重要啊!你們怎麼可以這麼草率啊!結果吳昭偉嚴審了將近兩個禮拜等著讓宗嘉賓昭偉可以來開兩場的公聽會總共一場專報三場公聽會開完以後國民黨版才逐條審查我要問一句話公聽會有這麼可怕嗎?社會溝通這麼困難嗎?"},{"start":4776.96,"end":4795.317,"text":"對不對 柯建民為什麽一直打柯建民 我不懂啊 我為一個月前的柯建民抱屈啊我再回到我們講的鍾嘉賓、趙偉剛剛講的東西 我跟各位講 好沒關係 你要一個一個公聽會來算第一個4月3號請問民進黨版的國會法案在哪裡"},{"start":4796.516,"end":4806.844,"text":"在哪裡啊?看不到啊?4月3號的公聽會就只有討論國民黨版的國會改革法案,不是嗎?這第一場,你們先少一場。4月10號跟4月11號我跟各位說啊,"},{"start":4811.854,"end":4839.065,"text":"那一天其實民進黨版的還在附議期啦所以有列為所謂的書面參考資料連網路上都沒有我們辦公室有去看網路網路上公告給學者專家都沒有啦書面才附參考資料啦實際上當天討論的也都是國民黨的國會改革法案然後大家來檢討裡面到底好不好可不可以時不時用要不要改"},{"start":4840.509,"end":4857.22,"text":"民進黨的這麼棒,像剛剛胡思耀講的,好周延啊!我們不管是行為法,不管是這個立法院的職權行使法,不管是議事規則,所有的國會的法案,我們民進黨這麼棒的法案,天下不知乃為其詞啊!那就辦公廳會啊!"},{"start":4861.813,"end":4888.492,"text":"給天下周知嘛我要問各位啊三場公聽會有這麼難嗎一場專報有這麼難嗎如果你們能夠尊重一個月前的民進黨這一個月三場公聽會一場專報也不就辦了嗎那今天大家就來開始審啊我跟各位講我強調還是一句話我要的是公平性今天吳宗憲召委尊重民進黨"},{"start":4890.057,"end":4905.15,"text":"所以我們等到三場公聽會一場專報之後才開始進行的逐條討論逐條審查。那我想請教一下為什麼今天民進黨你就不能夠學習吳宗憲的...抱歉啊主席剛剛他多講三分鐘我要繼續講下去。"},{"start":4907.012,"end":4931.153,"text":"為什麼不能尊重吳宗憲召委?為什麼不能夠去援用吳宗憲召委對民進黨的體恤跟善意,甚至考量民進黨的主張,要讓社會大眾廣之、公之、周之一起詳細討論呢?在這邊沒有程序正義,這些實質討論不周延啊!你民進黨的啊,不周延嘛!社會溝通不夠嘛!"},{"start":4932.014,"end":4937.377,"text":"所以我到現在不能理解公聽會有這麼可怕嗎?照民進黨當時的角度來講你為什麼不幹公聽會的國民黨?為什麼不要?為什麼不要?為什麼不要?辦了你了換了你們了我為什麼要?我為什麼要?辦公聽會就是延宕今天所謂的國會的審查有這種事情嗎?我跟你講民進黨這種雙標我在這邊直接鄭重宣布啦我已經看太多了"},{"start":4962.104,"end":4975.266,"text":"很簡單民進黨的標準我就用在民進黨身上以後請你們所有意識規則的主張提出之前想想到一個月後是不是柯建民要打柯建民是不是像柯建民說的那個東西又要回頭回立標打柯建民"},{"start":4976.95,"end":4993.909,"text":"這邊我的主張很簡單沒有今天不讓民進黨審但是比照國民黨三場公聽會一場專報如果鍾嘉賓、張偉你堅持那兩場公聽會列個參考資料就算已經討論民進黨版沒有關係那你再加上一場公聽會一場專報"},{"start":4996.329,"end":5018.651,"text":"國民黨本身三場公聽會一場專報阿!即便你用你這麼寬鬆的標準,列為參考資料就已經算是討論過了,那也就是你那兩場阿!那請問第三場公聽會在哪裡?那一場專報在哪裡?我沒看到阿!我沒看到阿!不用擔心阿!不用緊張阿!三場一場啦!就這樣子!以上!"},{"start":5019.534,"end":5030.961,"text":"好,先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案依本會往例均於上午11時處理。好,那接下來程序發言的部分有柯委員柯總召請。時間3分鐘。柯委員啊。"},{"start":5045.239,"end":5063.595,"text":"你要當打手,不要江南財進講一些歪語人家聽不懂的。你只要自己打自己,我從來不會打自己打自己,心理指正沒有關係。你每天都要自己打自己。你是江南財進,財進了吧?玩死人也點頭吧?你講胡說八道嘛。對不對?"},{"start":5066.417,"end":5092.508,"text":"你現在是在講什麼?我們現在講公聽會的事情,好,只要不是民進黨一直要求,然後我們自己排兩場。吳宗憲委員是一場就要把它結束掉。從開始要排這些新法,我不斷打電話給吳宗憲委員,吳委員你是法律人,你要把這個東西好好審查,公聽會就好好開,反正不急。過去2016的時候,我們審查到2018,"},{"start":5095.267,"end":5096.248,"text":"那是呢?"},{"start":5096.248,"end":5115.948,"text":"何時要把這個當作把國會改革整個迴旋單當作到大陸辦所裡,所以有他agenda嘛。在我年以前要表決掉,那大家要很清楚嘛。所以今天我們要談的就是說,不能糾結喊糾結啦。邏輯顛倒然後自己每天在自己的後續給大家看。大家要看我啦。"},{"start":5117.149,"end":5144.796,"text":"我什麼時候自己打自己我絕對邏輯都一致的所以今天在這個地方我來奉勸國民黨要派出來打手應該有稍微有一class嘛公務員還到重點了因為這個我要講一句話就是什麼叫開門引道引清兵入關剛剛吳宗憲委員講說70千自由現在他不要說全部把他戴紅帽子"},{"start":5146.448,"end":5173.393,"text":"不要說到大會去都戴紅帽子,這大家都有這些現象,網路都可以,要洩密什麼行為都可以。文宗憲委員吶,包括國民黨委員,你們自己常常聽看。我們為什麼有國安物法?我們為什麼要國安物法?兩人民關係要有刑法、勤工法、國際經濟保護法,然後自己完成到法。這些國安物法我們兩人民關係為什麼要有?當然這個必然之來要為了國家安全的問題啊。"},{"start":5177.301,"end":5194.547,"text":"人家那麽肯當這個推銷大刀去,怎麽要引入中共呢?這一種國家問題在這裏,而且被交代回來又修反送中法,甚至未來的國安法都會修。這種迎合中共的利益,難道不是存在於國家嗎?"},{"start":5196.104,"end":5210.297,"text":"到底大家是不是議好委員?議好院前面要審查法案。當然有一些名言者﹑有的正當性﹑有的不應該涉嫌﹑有的應該自由化﹑都有啊!"},{"start":5212.062,"end":5239.352,"text":"我們每個人都在處理這些法案。我們不是好像國民黨一般會說,欸,你那憲制裡面提起自由,當然會有一些憲法23條又逼顏值啊。你自由憲有憲制,你認憲有憲制啊。你不能侵害我國的利益啊。這個,什麼選選運動的道理,難道還要爭辯嗎?現在國民黨講到最後,就戲碼不斷重演,要讓民進黨的版本,永永出了違規。"},{"start":5240.532,"end":5248.719,"text":"都應該說要併案審查,也不允許廢,一定連要過去嘛。問題是李毓昌就五一七,要跟他五一七連要過去,然後昨天陳奕和不是,"},{"start":5256.124,"end":5273.755,"text":"不是要擋ACC嗎?要同意錢嗎?總統陳毅委員說要請總統做國民報告﹖可以啊!總統來國民報告﹖當然你來要求他﹖他一定會來啊!那至於呢﹖是不是要幾問幾答﹖這個人們違憲你當然很清楚吧!"},{"start":5274.946,"end":5299.801,"text":"那中間要有什麼?五年以後,行政院長兩個禮拜要被尋了。你把國家整個憲制打亂掉,你要修,總統要先來。那你弄出一個違憲版本,難道不被實現嗎?這個是要製造憲政衝突嘛。主要執政嘛。然後要用不斷某些攻擊嘛。開直播嘛。那這個黨人看不啊。可以這樣搞嗎?"},{"start":5300.962,"end":5322.489,"text":"各位,難道你前陣子我選來,你是不是要擺在市議辦上,擺在裡面,你來這裡,外部副行,你等於選擇黃青龍來看我,不用指揮了,有需要如此嗎?就算胡文煦在那裏面,你們全部,全部胡說八道通,"},{"start":5324.144,"end":5326.386,"text":"接下來有翁委員小玲程修發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":5354.69,"end":5357.139,"text":"我在這裡我想要提醒柯總召,"},{"start":5358.206,"end":5384.359,"text":"你所指責國民黨所做的這些事情事實上就是你們之前一直在做的不要在那裏說羅委員什麽拿直播的這個機器在這裏直播你們的助理們你們的這個這些同學拿這個請這個助理們拿的這個照相機直對著我們委員拍這難道沒有侵犯到我們的這個照相權沒有侵犯到我們的資訊隱私嗎我是認為說不要"},{"start":5388.086,"end":5416.823,"text":"不要把這些事情講得這樣好像覺得我們都是什麼違憲亂證你們今天自己提的這個法案哪一個不是違憲亂證好從憲法23條剛剛柯總召不斷在講憲法23條的比例原則他是憲法23條除了有四大正當事由之外他還必須要符合法律保留原則以及比例原則剛剛不斷的在講到比例原則"},{"start":5418.54,"end":5445.219,"text":"什麼叫比例原則我教憲法20年請問柯總統你懂得什麼叫比例原則的真正意涵嗎?比例原則就是禁止過度不要用大砲轟小鳥坦白說今天你們所提的這個相關的法案擴大到連立法委員的助理受立法委員監督的代理處理事務的助理以及他的配偶他的死女等等的相關的這些關係人實在是範圍太大了"},{"start":5448.746,"end":5473.337,"text":"大家現在到港澳到大陸地區交旅遊遊學等等的這個情形非常的頻繁為什麼要讓這些人的資訊公開你們能保護他們的人身自由安全嗎我就說這個已經嚴重了違反比例原則比例原則在這裡強調就是手段與目的要適當"},{"start":5476.229,"end":5479.811,"text":"閱讀委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5506.005,"end":5528.287,"text":"現在還要想來就是擴大整個這個規範的範圍,這不當的約束我們所有的立法委員的助理,然後他的相關的共同的家屬的配偶以及這個受指揮監督以及代理處理事務的這些人,這樣的規定這樣的約束合理嗎?"},{"start":5532.011,"end":5549.5,"text":"我今天看到民進黨委員在這裡口口聲聲的在這裡說他們這個要依法要尊重憲法可是所提的所有的法案基本上都是不符合我們現在的立法程序立法技術以及違背我們憲法保障人民的基本權利這麼重要的議題不值得開公聽會嗎"},{"start":5556.088,"end":5575.135,"text":"這樣的法案通過之後我很懷疑未來誰還想要來當立法委員的助理會想要來幫立法委員處理事務這個是非常非常有問題的條文在沒有開公聽會之前根本就不應該對這樣的條文進行審查"},{"start":5578.595,"end":5596.223,"text":"好,謝謝翁委員,也再次跟委員會報告一下,剛剛翁委員所談的是賴瑞隆委員版本的立法委員行為法。這個法在本席4月10號、4月11號召開公聽會的時候,就已經屬於我們公聽會的範疇了。"},{"start":5597.443,"end":5613.372,"text":"你可以看得到他的內容他是在2月27號印發在4月10號已經在進入委員會待審所以說明一下如果以有無公聽會的部分那賴瑞隆委員版本的行為法的確就在我們那兩天公聽會的討論範圍"},{"start":5615.473,"end":5638.103,"text":"那當然是不是跟委員會請教一下因為事實上剛剛大家討論到的已經進入了條文的內容是否我們還是要把程序發言進行完之後我們就來進行大體討論那因為有表達要程序發言的還有零四名委員零四名委員還有程序發言嗎還是要進行大體討論主條好程序發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":5643.444,"end":5668.743,"text":"我要回應柯建民總召了,他剛才提到我。我想這個柯總召又大法官上身了,剛才一直對憲法23條法律保留原則、比例原則一直提出他的一個看法。其實我想剛才吳宗憲委員對這個憲法保留原則以及比例原則的相關的規定,他已經講得非常清楚,我們不能只看文藝解釋啊。"},{"start":5669.522,"end":5696.644,"text":"要去瞭解他的一個立法的精神所以今天這個立法委員行為法去訂定相關限制我們立法委員還有國會助理或者議員到中港澳去旅遊我想這個訂這個限制人民這個行動自由這樣的一個法案當然我們就要考量到說訂出這個法案他是否有符合我們法律的這個目的性以及他的必要性"},{"start":5697.584,"end":5698.245,"text":"一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼一＼"},{"start":5720.413,"end":5728.732,"text":"所以我想柯總召這個大法官上升這樣的一個說法完全還批判說我們這些法律人我不懂法律他最懂"},{"start":5729.906,"end":5729.986,"text":"厲法委員"},{"start":5760.526,"end":5787.876,"text":"所以這個已經完全違反權力分立的原則了怎麼定出一個說立法委員竟然要受到行政機關的一個審查所以這是一個很矛盾的一個立法那所以我要再跟總召來這個要跟你說一下對啦我跟你說啦我想我們法律人堅持我們的正義的一個想法所以我們的行為一定是符合正義的啦"},{"start":5788.669,"end":5804.364,"text":"不是你去說你法律人好像你怎麼樣怎麼樣李世民你還要連任啊連任新竹鄉親都在看都在直播啊我要告訴新竹的鄉親李世民絕對是站在公平正義的一方以上謝謝"},{"start":5807.307,"end":5807.547,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5837.336,"end":5865.011,"text":"那您不做程序發言,因為剛好有吳思堯委員跟莊立元委員,你們兩個程序要兌換嗎?那就讓...程序...那就...好啦好啦..."},{"start":5866.6,"end":5883.421,"text":"來 那個吳委員跟莊委員你們順序。好 那請吳事要委員程序發言。時間3分鐘。那麼因為在場有有非本會委員的如果因為本會委員不能做程序發言只能會詢問跟非本會委員說明一下。好 請。"},{"start":5884.478,"end":5913.045,"text":"我真的是迫不及待要站上來逐條說明請委員坐在這裡好好看清楚今天要審的條文是什麼第一個今天沒有審博洋的條文審博洋的條文是兩岸人民關係條例現在連內政委員會都還排不進去因為被國民黨被民眾黨聯手第二次在程序委員會被檔案剛剛羅志強委員講得很好"},{"start":5914.005,"end":5925.375,"text":"公聽會有助於法案討論,那何妨讓沈博洋委員的版本突破程序委員會被檔案的這種限制,讓他交付內政委員會審查。內政委員會要排兩場、三場公聽會,這種我們都非常樂意。好嗎?不要擋沈博洋委員的版本。然後呢,我們來看看今天的條文。"},{"start":5938.326,"end":5962.891,"text":"大家都講錯了今天請看看唯一一條賴瑞隆委員針對立法委員行為法第十條他唯一針對大家一直在說的是不是有強害憲法的人民遷徙自由我跟大家講請看清楚他的第十條有三項第一項在處理秘密會議要竊結書否則不得參加這個應該沒有意義吧"},{"start":5967.432,"end":5989.874,"text":"第二項就是大家都說錯了不開會期我不曉得你們閱讀能力有問題嗎吳宗憲召委我可以跟您報告一下您剛剛都指涉錯誤吳宗憲召委賴瑞隆委員的第十條我唸給大家聽第十條的第二項曾參加立法院秘密會議之立法委員"},{"start":5992.025,"end":6007.978,"text":" Psaki本人、其關係人於任期中或威聘關係存續期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開,其報備方法由立法院定之。所以他的規範主體對象是誰?是在立法院開會"},{"start":6012.862,"end":6039.969,"text":"有參與到秘密會議的立委及關係人才要登載、才要納管。這是今天審查的賴瑞隆委員的版本。絕對不是國民黨委員說的,哎呀,立委的助理從此以後就不能再去中國了,就不能再到其他地方去旅行了。今天賴瑞隆委員的版本的第二項是在說有參與秘密會議的立委。"},{"start":6042.29,"end":6067.005,"text":"主體是這些所以大家認為有參加秘密會議的委員難道去敵對國家跟重要的黨政軍人士的會面不需要事前登載嗎?這個讓社會公平嘛所以不要隨便無限上綱今天的條文、舊條文、論條文從來沒有講到任何人只要跟立法院有關係他的遷徙自由、旅行自由都被規範並沒有"},{"start":6069.366,"end":6088.481,"text":"然後我也要補充一下我手上拿的謝謝剛剛周恩來秘書長給我們的立法院的職員去中國的規定還有大家手上已經有監察院的人員去中國的規定是什麼所以秘書長以立法院的規定秘書長如果進入大陸地區要10個工作日檢據簽成然後簽給院長同意11職等以上要7天以前10職等以下要5天以前"},{"start":6100.056,"end":6125.698,"text":"檢察院也是徵務人員涉及國安利益機密人員進入大陸地區要10天以前檢認11指等要7天以前檢認10指等以下要5天這都是各院適用的所以這都是我們在憲法的授權下並沒有強害人民的居住遷徙自由而是你有語文重要的機密證物的可能的話你事前登載"},{"start":6126.952,"end":6135.627,"text":"如果國民黨委員說只要去規範就已經是違憲的話那請問各院都在適用的各級機關適用的已經行之多年了"},{"start":6140.225,"end":6159.098,"text":"所以不要這麼針對性把立法委員納管也沒有這麼可怕只要大家坦蕩蕩我去中國交流我不會洩密我不會去舔共我不會看到王滬寧自己就成為小樓樓小跟班大家行的正做的直"},{"start":6162.25,"end":6176.418,"text":"你一樣經過登載事後報告依然來去自如啊所以就條文論條文請把今天的條文讀清楚林思明委員看清楚您剛剛解讀的根本不是今天討論的條文好嗎謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6182.209,"end":6208.445,"text":"謝謝吳委員施堯的程序發言那還是跟委員報告有三點第一剛剛吳委員所說的那個前往中國及港澳地區是向立法院報備報備並不是向行政機關報備是向立法院報備第二也提醒大家剛剛請秘書長提供的是立法院的職員目前是職員他們有這個正在簽合中的規定但是監察院的包括委員"},{"start":6209.466,"end":6231.547,"text":"那這也是為什麼今天我們會有處理賴瑞隆委員版的《立法委員行為法》的第十條的部分,委員部分是不是要含色進來。第三,剛剛幾位委員所關心的關係人包括哪些?這大概賴瑞隆委員版是寫在第二條,關係人有那麼多人,但是前提是必須委員有參加機密會議,那才有這些問題。其實更嚴重的是第十一條,"},{"start":6232.428,"end":6244.059,"text":"厲委跟他的工會助理不得去公務機關去參加轉投機制世界的職務,這個可能會比較重要一點,不過這個還是尊重各位委員的程序發言,現在由專委委員要進行程序發言,時間3分鐘,請。"},{"start":6250.145,"end":6265.828,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6265.828,"end":6268.51,"text":"我相信今天要進入實質會比較困難。國民黨朋友有國民黨的一個堅持。但是這個堅持、這個理由也不要亂講了。你像比如說林士明委員還有我們的趙偉、吳宗憲委員剛剛一直提到憲法講的比例原則拿出來挑戰民進黨。我就在這個地方來好好的回應,否則我很擔心"},{"start":6289.529,"end":6313.399,"text":"厲法法制委員會所提出的憲法法律上的一個見解會一笑大方。比如說我們今天在審的賴瑞隆委員的版本這個部分我看到國民黨委員所提出來的幾位委員的高見是講的說違反比例原則違反憲法保障人民遷徙的自由其實在昨天所提到的還有言論自由各位把它想想看"},{"start":6314.119,"end":6319.281,"text":"剛剛吳宗憲委員提到了說憲法第23條的規定其實如果大家現在現場去把它google一下憲法第一章在談的就是總綱那你從在第二章裡面從第七條到第22條談的是人民的權利跟義務那這些限制在23條你規定你就必須要不能違反法律保留的一個原則那什麼叫法律保留什麼叫比例原則我在這個地方"},{"start":6340.548,"end":6367.587,"text":"民進黨來提出一個跟國民黨的見解不一樣的一個地方你去打開行政程序法第七條其實這已經開宗明義講得非常清楚啦真正要談整個比例原則的話第一個是的就像吳宗憲剛剛所講的第一個是在講說適當性原則就是說你這個手段有沒有辦法去達成這樣的一個目的那如果說我們立法院今天的立法今天的版本你說語文曾經國家機密的人那這一些人要向立法院來報備有沒有辦法來達成目的"},{"start":6370.109,"end":6378.162,"text":"一、有可能達到這個目的所以通過第一個審查第二個就是說你那個必要性原則啊就是吳宗憲你剛講的最小親愛的一個原則這樣的一個限縮"},{"start":6382.301,"end":6401.11,"text":"到底會不會是造成他是很大很大的一個侵害如果說只是向立法院報備的話本席倒認為這個還是符合最小侵害原則所以說在多種方法裡面你沒有去採最激烈的我用最小的報備向立法院報備"},{"start":6402.52,"end":6403.381,"text":"厲法院提出報備。"},{"start":6417.473,"end":6436.092,"text":"這樣子是用大砲打小鳥嗎?所以在本席看來,這個完全都沒有去違反到憲法第23條所謂的法律保留,就是憲法的一個比例原則。我們今天就是要來進入實質討論啊。國民黨如果有任何的高見的話,你認為說眾多方法之中,你認為"},{"start":6439.415,"end":6454.912,"text":"厲法委員或者這些助理曾經語文這個立法院的一個機密你說這一些人不需要簡單的向立法院來提出報備那你們有更好的方法也可以啊你們認為有更小的那個小那個手槍就可以打到啦民進黨這個還叫做大砲啊可以聽聽你們的見解嗎"},{"start":6459.471,"end":6460.812,"text":"elong委員市民登記程序發言"},{"start":6485.287,"end":6487.929,"text":"對於所有的國會改革我們在立法院從2月1號到現在"},{"start":6514.991,"end":6538.904,"text":"我們真的瞭解到一個泱泱的執政黨在2012年2015年對全民的承諾要來做陽光的國會所有相關改革的法案結果8年過去了一直到今天在野黨國民黨民眾黨提出來以後民進黨大夢初醒"},{"start":6541.505,"end":6568.557,"text":"馬上急行軍國民黨做什麼就跟什麼然後再罵什麼今天所有的版本不就是當時民進黨所提出來的嗎而到今時今日彷彿格式在這裡此言本席在這裡看了真的實在是民進黨跟馬戲耍猴戲的班子有什麼不一樣天天把委員會當秀場"},{"start":6571.089,"end":6592.662,"text":"各式各樣的人都能夠當部分區我們真的沒有辦法想像搞詐騙的也可以來當部分區什麼樣的人都可以來當部分區搞網軍也可以來今天把災區當秀場我們再一次的表達我們再一次的表達這種會議開下去到底有什麼樣的意義要讓行政權來規範立法權"},{"start":6600.16,"end":6627.301,"text":"這荒天下之大忌叫行政院來監督立法院這個就是民進黨在多年執政以後此言他是一個民主的政黨讓自由民主能夠帶進台灣八年以後九十六年背叛交錯貪贓枉法腐敗不堪為什麼要怕國民黨反的國會改革"},{"start":6630.38,"end":6658.494,"text":"​​來給他三讀通過國民黨版的國會改革是幫民進黨把所有的害蟲幫執政黨把所有的腐敗能夠清除民進黨黨主席賴清德應該要公開的表達感謝在野黨來協助執政黨除弊我們看到就是不斷的在這裡杯葛今天還要此言"},{"start":6660.084,"end":6685.138,"text":"講立法委員行為法執政黨國會的負責人柯建民他講出了所有民進黨的心聲只有政治算計跟利益完全沒有心中沒有人民不但可食人血饅頭到現在為止執政黨的黨主席謙卑謙卑再謙卑"},{"start":6687.306,"end":6714.403,"text":"賴慶德先生到現在昨天除了審議以外沒有任何意思表示還要此言來講行為法這樣的一個國會負責人是民進黨到今天為止議委來這裡費兩生生就洗心革面而且巴西的巴西的紀律委員會委員通通是民進黨籍"},{"start":6716.991,"end":6743.446,"text":"我們在這裡啊,再一次啊,覺得以為這樣子,民進黨已經習慣了嗎?為了所有網路,為了所有媒體,為了所有網軍,船過就水無痕了嗎?八八風災,國民黨的行政院長陪爸爸去吃個晚飯,行政院長要下台。"},{"start":6745.382,"end":6764.967,"text":"因為,面對災難的時候,他只不過是巴巴結國民黨的行政院長陪著爸爸吃一個晚餐,要下台。今天民進黨把災區的災民,踐踏在腳下,啃人血饅頭,還大言不慚在這裡,這就是民進黨,還有什麼行為法?"},{"start":6768.989,"end":6783.582,"text":"這個東西在這裡不用再開了,今天就是浪費任命的時間了。那個陳勛發言告一段落,因為在場有范雲委員跟陳柏南委員要做會議詢問,是不是讓他,有啦,會議詢問,會議詢問,有啦,會議詢問啦,會議詢問,剛剛已經有會議動議了,有,會議詢問,沒問題啦,沒找沒找啦。"},{"start":6793.391,"end":6799.183,"text":"我要回答你的問題啊!你要有資格在這講這些話好不好!你要先照照你的鏡子吧!"},{"start":6801.711,"end":6815.72,"text":"何時可悲啊?主席在這邊吼,剛剛已經有委員表示了會議循環不依法上位動議的處理。但在會議上,你要出上位動議案,怎麼會上位動議不經討論啊?但是現在會議詢問,目前沒有停止會議詢問的。"},{"start":6829.369,"end":6833.212,"text":"主席會處理商會動議,因為剛剛范雲委員會議詢問了。第一時間您在發言之前我就已經先做程序發言。"},{"start":6857.947,"end":6886.108,"text":"你本來就應該要處理啊,優先處理三會動議啊。三會動議,三會高位,不經討論就要處理。那是不經討論,所以三會動議不討論,所以會議詢問。你會議主席一千次啦,會議詢問一千次啦。不然你九十六、三個月再來,三個月回來。會議詢問一千次啦,現在只有政黨委員會,非本會委員他要做會議詢問啦,是不是這樣。"},{"start":6890.066,"end":6891.167,"text":"問一問,我們就處理了。"},{"start":6913.064,"end":6928.359,"text":"會議詢問啦!趕快會議詢問啦!因為在場只有兩位要會議詢問,會議完了我們就馬上處理啦!強調一下,三位動議是不能討論的!那個,會議詢問!等一下!我剛才,大家都在講很清楚,胡文綺到他..."},{"start":6929.48,"end":6957.402,"text":"他跳到後面去,然後所有的東西跟你們全部結束,你要怎麼處理?你可以出來你媽的媽叫他跑人啊?你要做個九十歲的嘛!我要好好回答你的問題啊!有啦,范委員你趕快回答詢問啦!等一下啦!讓范委員,范委員詢問好不好?你不下去,這樣對得起主席嗎?他這樣的情況,他這樣對得起主席嗎?"},{"start":6958.598,"end":6964.14,"text":"議員會議訊不能討論,我現在沒有辦法討論三位同意,來請,那個森委員。那個尊重主席。"},{"start":6989.947,"end":7009.387,"text":"請尊重主席,好嗎?是會議詢問。我想請問,你們可以把會議主席送紀律委員會好嗎?就尊重主席。我請尊重主席好嗎?尊重主席也是要送紀律委員會喔。"},{"start":7010.649,"end":7014.934,"text":"我的會議詢問是今天我們必須是審查復總召,請問是主席比較大還是副總召比較大?"},{"start":7025.475,"end":7027.317,"text":"請你尊重主席尊重我的會議詢問好嗎?"},{"start":7053.019,"end":7055.961,"text":"請依照議事規則,論理公範及行為準則,健全民主正維,為維護國會尊嚴的話,請問一下。"},{"start":7076.698,"end":7078.8,"text":"為什麼每次討論國會密度條款你就要散會?每次我要編我的法條的時候,"},{"start":7098.833,"end":7105.716,"text":"為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的話你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?為什麼每次討論國會秘圖的時候你就要散會?"},{"start":7127.466,"end":7138.668,"text":"好,民進黨團版本密兔的時候,為什麼副坤祺都不發言?你為什麼還可以進行會議詢問?你說這是為什麼會議詢問?請問他算什麼會議詢問?他算什麼會議詢問?你告訴我算什麼會議詢問?什麼東西啊?副坤祺也負責理由三十幾例啊?你負責理由三十幾例啊?你負責理由三十幾例啊?你負責理由三十幾例啊?"},{"start":7157.918,"end":7160.82,"text":"誰在破壞開會的秩序?誰沒有講完話題?誰在破壞開會的秩序?"},{"start":7184.495,"end":7187.096,"text":"立法院議事規則第26條第二項會議中"},{"start":7211.699,"end":7220.91,"text":"會議進行中出席委員得提出散會之動議,經15人以上聯署或互不經討論,由主席晉赴表決。"},{"start":7225.756,"end":7238.479,"text":"會議規範當中的各種動議、散會動議的優先順位最高。散、擱、停、延、復、休、午動議最高。才能擱置動議。那主席就要來處理散會動議。那因為這是動議。那不能討論。那因為有委員提出詢問。我們讓他詢問。詢問完我就要處理了。那詢問的內容大家可以有意見。"},{"start":7249.222,"end":7268.766,"text":"如果對於主席要讓其他委員進行會議詢問,如果有不同意見,你們可以對抗,你們就異議,異議就照規則來處理。但是我現在也聽完了范委員的詢問了,那你們依舊授書面來,五個人以上。現在呢,如果沒有其他要詢問,如果沒有要詢問,我要處理動議了。我要處理動議了。"},{"start":7278.428,"end":7282.673,"text":"觀眾謙有委員林思明等人提出散會動議請宣讀。"},{"start":7301.71,"end":7329.9,"text":"提案一,三會動議,針對本日會議五月八日議程,建起...吳宗憲啦,你老法議的,你能鑄作為例啦。第26條,第57條,規定提議三會是否有當進行公決。提案人委員林思明、謝龍街、翁曉琳、羅志強、吳宗憲、副官請訓讀完畢。好,針對三會動議,請問有異議?有異議。有異議現在進行表決,採取...採用舉手表決,表決前先清點在場出席人數。"},{"start":7331.496,"end":7352.433,"text":"好,在場出席委員11人不函主席,現在開始表決,贊成者請舉手。好,清點後贊成者6人請放下,反對者請舉手。本會委員反對者5人請放下。"},{"start":7356.377,"end":7372.411,"text":"表決結果在場出席委員11人不管主席贊成者6人反對者5人。散會動議贊成者多數通過。本次會議進行到此。討論事項所列議案未及處理部分均另定期繼續審查。現在散會。謝謝大家。"},{"start":7380.664,"end":7408.738,"text":"欸 你是民啊 你法院欸請讓沈博洋的案子可以副委員會來開公聽會請讓沈博洋的國安條款可以送委員會來開公聽會啊不要害怕 出來打球國民黨來開立法院就是會副康熙拍個桌子大家就開不成會了對啊 國會是耍流氓的地方嗎副康熙拍個桌子這立法院就開不成會了大家現在要了解立法院的狀況齁"}]}},{"id":"15891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15891","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d35675eb71f9bc6ae90a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4f44983fd74e235685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等89案。（詳如附件1、6）二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案。（詳如附件2）三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案。（詳如附件3）四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案。（詳如附件4）五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等 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61、憲兵指揮部第3目向下安日案件計資籌金預算凍結50萬元案。 62、憲兵指揮部第5目向下遙控污染機防禦系統預算凍結200萬元案。"},{"start":2699.787,"end":2709.258,"text":"63、憲兵指揮部第13目向下安日案件及之籌金預算凍結90萬元案。（64、憲兵指揮部第4目向下軍事裝備及設施預算凍結200萬元案。（65、直通電軍指揮部第4目向下資訊服務費預算凍結100萬元案。（66、"},{"start":2719.108,"end":2730.316,"text":"電通資訊．通電軍指揮部第五目向下．遙控無人機防禦系統．預算凍結200萬元案。．通電軍指揮部第四目向下．人事費預算凍結200萬元案。．政治作戰局第一目．軍事行政預算凍結50萬元案。．軍備局第四目向下．對國內團體資金助預算凍結200萬元案。．"},{"start":2745.75,"end":2760.624,"text":"軍備局第1目軍事行政預算凍結100萬元案。（軍備局第4目向下其他業務租金預算凍結100萬元案。（軍備局第5目徵收戰術輪車研製案預算凍結300萬元案。（軍備局第11目向下野戰全身型動力外骨骼系統開發預算凍結100萬元案。"},{"start":2771.714,"end":2786.791,"text":"74（軍備局第11目向下軍品研發預算凍結300萬元案。（75（軍備局第1目向下採購及外購軍品作業費預算凍結50萬元案。（76（軍備局第1目向下國防先進科技研究計劃預算凍結1000萬元案。"},{"start":2790.514,"end":2798.198,"text":"77、軍醫局第一目向下業務費預算凍結50萬元案。（78、學民防衛動員署第三目向下國外旅費預算凍結100萬元案。（"},{"start":2801.477,"end":2814.207,"text":"軍事情報局第1目軍事行政預算凍結100萬元案。（80本部所屬單位第3目教育訓練業務預算凍結91萬元案。（81參謀本部第4目向下軍事單位專備臨附建構置及保修預算凍結100萬元案。（82參謀本部第4目向下業務費預算凍結200萬元案。"},{"start":2826.301,"end":2837.332,"text":"3、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議．外交部主管預算提出書面報告後．使得凍結等12案。．一、一般事務費預算凍結100萬元案。．二、一般事務費預算凍結50萬元案。．"},{"start":2841.736,"end":2851.343,"text":"3、雜項設備費預算凍結50萬元案。（4、資訊服務費凍結50萬元案。（5、委辦費預算凍結20萬元案。（6、業務費預算凍結50萬元案。（7、學術交流活動有關歐洲式預算凍結20萬元案。（8、經貿交流活動有關亞東太平洋式預算凍結50萬元案。（9、經貿交流活動運用多元管道"},{"start":2867.577,"end":2877.205,"text":"推動我加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定預算凍結50萬元案。（10、經貿交流活動預算凍結50萬元案。（11、業務費預算凍結50萬元案。（12、業務費預算凍結50萬元案。（4、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議．國家安全局預算提出書面報告後使得凍資等8案。（"},{"start":2894.437,"end":2900.06,"text":"1、資訊服務費預算凍結50萬元案2、一般事務費預算凍結50萬元案3、設施及機械設施設備養護費預算凍結100萬元案4、防護建築及設備費預算凍結100萬元案5、雜項設備費預算凍結100萬元案6、教育訓練費預算凍結50萬元案7、資訊服務費預算凍結20萬元案8、資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結50萬元案"},{"start":2926.924,"end":2940.776,"text":"5、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議．國防部委員會主管提出書面報告後．實則凍結等13案。．一、一般事務費預算凍結50萬元案。．二、橋界青年培育交流計劃預算凍結50萬元案。．三、橋民橋團聯繫接待及橋橋中心服務預算凍結20萬元案。．四、業務費預算凍結100萬元案。"},{"start":2950.643,"end":2953.885,"text":"5、海外華語文學習生根計劃預算凍結20萬元案。（7、擴大培育及留用僑生預算凍結100萬元案。（"},{"start":2961.375,"end":2969.522,"text":"7、業務費預算凍結10萬元案。（8、業務費預算凍結50萬元案。（9、擴大培育及留用僑生預算凍結20萬元案。（10、業務費預算凍結10萬元案。（11、業務費預算凍結10萬元案。（12、海外華語文學習生根計劃預算凍結20萬元案。（13、僑生回國升學及僑親培訓研習預算凍結20萬元案。"},{"start":2988.397,"end":2998.523,"text":"5、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議．國軍退出一官兵輔導委員會．主管預算提出書面報告後．使得凍結．使得凍資等14案。．"},{"start":3001.853,"end":3015.004,"text":"1、第一目向下講補助費預算凍結100萬元案2、第二目向下雜項設備費預算凍結50萬元案3、第四目向下國外旅費預算凍結50萬元案4、第五目向下機械設備費預算凍結100萬元案5、第五目向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":3021.409,"end":3024.812,"text":"6、第6目向下暗日案件．資籌金預算凍結100萬元案。．其第6目．農民醫療照護預算凍結100萬元案。．8、第7目向下一般事務費預算凍結30萬元案。"},{"start":3037.362,"end":3046.985,"text":"9、第7目向下大陸地區旅費預算凍結30萬元案10、第7目向下各安養機構勞務外包經費預算凍結30萬元案11、第7目向下機械設備費預算凍結50萬元案12、第7目農民安養及養護預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":3056.808,"end":3065.231,"text":"13、第9目向下安養機構防設及生活設施整建工程預算凍結50萬元案。（14、第9目向下房屋建築及設備費預算凍結100萬元案。（討論事項（處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議．國防部主管預算凍結案等7案。（"},{"start":3077.199,"end":3091.925,"text":"第一案．第二目向下．國防政策規劃與督導．預算凍結401萬7千元。．二．入軍司令部第三目向下．動員整備人事費．預算凍結100萬元。．三．入軍司令部第三目向下．物品．預算凍結100萬元。"},{"start":3093.586,"end":3105.898,"text":"．四、陸軍司令部第3目向下．遭下設備費預算凍結100萬元．五、陸軍司令部第1目向下．國內旅費預算凍結100萬元．六、陸軍司令部第4目向下．業務費預算凍結200萬元．七、海軍司令部第5目向下．國軍HF通訊機換裝案．預算凍結500萬元案"},{"start":3116.687,"end":3123.36,"text":"．二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議．外交部主管預算凍結案等4案。．"},{"start":3126.909,"end":3142.054,"text":"113年度其他協助各項國際交流活動預算凍結20萬元案。（二、加強雙邊及多邊合作有關拉丁美洲及加勒比海斯預算凍結50萬元案。（三、對外資捐助預算凍結100萬元案。（四、對國際之關懷救助及重建預算凍結100萬元案。（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":3153.239,"end":3155.126,"text":"國家安全局第二幕資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結50萬元案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3162.968,"end":3188.846,"text":"有關我們今天的議程跟我們同仁報告一下上午我們處理解凍案那我們必須在1點以前把它做一個段落因為1點半開始我們從今天下午到明天兩天一次會要處理兩個法案的審查國防部的法案那那個法案光宣讀條文就要花兩個小時所以我們可能時間控制要好一點所以我們今天上午因為是我們上一個會期的凍結案"},{"start":3190.327,"end":3205.797,"text":"也經過相當討論所以待會本席會給發言的時間會比較短一點請大家諒解第二個我們案子有分兩大類第一大類是當時的委員會決議書面報告送進來就可以同意動之"},{"start":3206.457,"end":3220.871,"text":"第二大類是書面報告進來,經同意,使得凍結。前面叫報告案,後面是討論案。所以我們待會報告案如果大家沒有意見的話,就是按照我們上一次的委員會決議,報告後就可以凍結了。"},{"start":3221.812,"end":3246.965,"text":"那至於如果報告案．個別委員．馬委員．那個如果報告案．如果屬於報告案．原則上報告就通過了．但是個別委員有意見本席還是尊重．是不是讓我知道一下．否則我們程序上是報告案過就過了．接下來尋答完．就處理經同意案．討論案．所以這個剛才已經宣讀的是報告案嗎．全部都宣讀完了喔．所以我本席現在這邊詢問就是說．"},{"start":3250.103,"end":3253.367,"text":"．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案"},{"start":3271.137,"end":3298.43,"text":"來馬委員針對有一些書面報告案的部分他如果還有嚴重的問題比如說你的進度你明明說不出來這個部分我們還是有意見的不是因為他提出書面報告就可以通過我想這個我覺得我這是原則我現在先處理程序馬委員我了解你是把那幾個案的號碼給我我不知道要對幾案啦我把它挪到討論案也可以啦我的意思說你現在是不是可以告訴我是哪幾案"},{"start":3299.07,"end":3325.964,"text":"9、10、11、12、15、16、21、22、24、27、33、37、38、39、40、41、42、47、50、54、55、56"},{"start":3326.425,"end":3335.197,"text":"28、59、62、65、66、73、78（這個都是（29案（這個都是報告案（對（還是原來（報告案（討論事項有一個（討論上本來就可以要討論那個是還好（好"},{"start":3343.902,"end":3363.631,"text":"那就還包括事項29案因為我們已經同意53案了同仁報告啦我們委員會決議的是書面報告就可以動之就不用再經過討論了那討論案我們就要進行討論最後來確定同意那剛才馬委員提出來的是其實是跟我們原來的決議有所不同"},{"start":3364.491,"end":3378.036,"text":"但基於我們委員會和諧基本上我比較採取尊重的方式處理那我是建議說馬委員你這個案子有沒有可以等於說討論這個案子就可以涵蓋其他案子的不要鬧那麼多啦可以參與這個嗎"},{"start":3380.903,"end":3406,"text":"你看一下好不好,因為我原則上我尊重你這樣子,我說應該討論就討論,但是因為畢竟我們上次委員會也決議的嘛,我們還是要尊重那個決議。那我們是不是,比如說我看起來你這有些案子是,其實是同系列的案子啦,並不是那麼多。那是不是那系列案子我只要有4個或3個,把它重點抓出來,整個案子就可以一體適用的。我們是不是抓這個重點來,不要一次29案都沒有處理這樣不好。"},{"start":3407.731,"end":3413.222,"text":"不是29案沒有處理啊,它是有82案啦,已經有同意23案,好啦,我看多少好不好?"},{"start":3417.472,"end":3440.029,"text":"這樣好不好那個我們有關書面報告後使得動之的82案本席做一個但書我們帶馬文君委員把他提出有意見的29案整理出來那幾案不是不通過把他移到討論案尋答後處理那他沒有列出來的部分我們就照案通過各位有沒有意見"},{"start":3445.966,"end":3462.943,"text":"馬委員提出疑慮要詢問的,我們把他移到討論案至於是哪幾案,我們給馬委員一些時間來處理他沒有提出的,就剛才念的範圍以內,不要再多了,可以比那個少,不要比那個多就是在其他的案子我們就照案通過"},{"start":3468.79,"end":3490.524,"text":"原則上這82個凍結案均同意動之提報院會有一的部分我們帶馬委員整理出來之後我們把它移到討論案下階段處理報告事項3（處理外交部主管預算凍結案提出書面報告使動之的12案各位有沒有意見"},{"start":3493.015,"end":3521.344,"text":"沒有的話我們就照案通過同意動之提報院會再來報告事項4國家安全局凍結案中的8案提出書面報告後使得動之各位有沒有異議沒有的話我們照案通過同意動之提報院會再來橋委會主管的預算凍結案中提出書面報告後使得動之計13案請問各位有沒有異議沒有的話我們均同意動之提報院會"},{"start":3523.961,"end":3535.685,"text":"報告事項6（退府會主管預算凍結案中．提出書面報告後．使得凍滯案即14案．請問各位委員．對解凍有沒有異議．沒有的話均同意凍滯提報院會"},{"start":3541.839,"end":3564.535,"text":"現在因為我們今天是幾乎我們國防外交委員會所有的主管部會都到了請各部會機關就其主管預算解凍案的報告案那個討論案進行報告依序為博鴻輝、田中光、柯承亨、阮昭雄、李文忠首先我們請國防部副部長博鴻輝上台報告"},{"start":3573.939,"end":3598.875,"text":"主席．各位委員先進．感謝各位委員先進．長期關心國防事務運作．並給予本部各項指導．在此聲表敬意與感謝．今日安排議程．辦理預算解凍．既有陸軍司令部高登亮島馬頭．及公視整建工程等89案．計新台幣1億6682萬7千元．"},{"start":3602.867,"end":3619.537,"text":"其中報告事項82案（討論事項7案（本部均已將書面報告呈送大院（針對委員關切各項（各案的執行情況、檢討與精進（等作為均依決議事項要求來辦理。"},{"start":3620.782,"end":3640.752,"text":"那麼各項的凍結預算均為本部施政所必須．請各位委員鼎力支持預算解凍．使各項國防施政及建軍規劃能夠順利推行謝謝好謝謝博鴻輝副部長接下來進行報告是外交部政務次長田中光"},{"start":3647.165,"end":3666.429,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進,大家好。承蒙大院外交及國防委員會安排本部主管113年度公開預算凍結項目進行解凍。今日列入議程即有報告事項12案即590萬元,以及討論事項4案即270萬元。"},{"start":3673.79,"end":3682.162,"text":"該等報告均已送交大院,此部分已納入大院議案關係文書,敬請各位委員參閱。"},{"start":3684.346,"end":3713.755,"text":"為了持續推動各項重要的外交事務．敬請各位委員一本長期以來．對外交工作的關注以及支持．對本部蓄以督導以及鼓勵．並同意解除上項各項書面報告解凍案．以利本部業務之勝利推動．謝謝好謝謝田次請回接下來請國安局副局長柯承亨上台報告"},{"start":3723.513,"end":3731.542,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位縣長、大家好,非常感謝大院軍會安排審查本局113年度的預算解凍案。"},{"start":3735.802,"end":3755.897,"text":"承蒙各位委員先進．對本局業務的指導與支持．僅至上最高的敬意跟謝贈本局113年度預算解凍案．有9案共570萬元各案的書面報告．均已於2月6日含請大院審查．其中列入討論事項的一案"},{"start":3757.568,"end":3780.021,"text":"50萬元如附表為延續各項情報特勤工作的推展必須維持國安預算規模的穩定期盼大院委員本則以往支持國安工作的一貫立場繼續給予本局督促與鼓勵並同意解除上述各項凍結案以確保國家安全情報工作的順利推動謝謝"},{"start":3783.166,"end":3789.725,"text":"好 請柯副局長回座接下來進行的是僑委會副委員長阮昭雄上台報告"},{"start":3797.208,"end":3816.518,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進,大家好。非常感謝大院外交及國防委員會安排本會主管113年度預算凍結項目進行解凍報告。承蒙各位委員先進對本會各項業務的指導與支持,在此致散最高的敬意及謝誠。"},{"start":3817.739,"end":3842.202,"text":"本日列入報告事項十三案．480萬元相關書面．報告均與送交大院在案．如附表橋屋工作需考量橋區需求．依工作計劃事實推動．原籍需相關經費支持．必能發揮橋屋在國家發展之關鍵動能．"},{"start":3844.13,"end":3869.534,"text":"至委員前所關切之各項建議．本會軍會積極審慎妥儲．納入執行規劃．為維持推動各項重要僑務工作．敬請各位委員以本長期以來．對僑務工作的關注與支持．對本會蓄以督促與鼓勵．並同意解除上述各項解凍案．以利本會業務之順利推動．謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":3875.09,"end":3889.044,"text":"謝謝副委員長請回馬委員你那邊收斂的部分需不需要陸軍派人跟你一起討論一下我們現在請退府衛副主任委員李文忠副主委上台報告"},{"start":3892.939,"end":3909.952,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、各位女士、各位先生首先感謝各位委員本會113年度預算凍結案報告資料已經在2月19日函請大家查照其中報告事項醫學臨床教學研究等14案凍結案凍結金額計990萬元進行會員同意結凍"},{"start":3916.752,"end":3930.886,"text":"好 謝謝副主委那再次跟我們同仁報告今天的會議比較長早上是解凍案我們下午是這個要修法那修法從宣讀法條兩個小時進行大體"},{"start":3933.268,"end":3962.722,"text":"詳詳詳詳詳詳詳"},{"start":3962.862,"end":3965.524,"text":"首先進行詢答的委員是羅美玲委員時間4加1分鐘羅委員早"},{"start":3989.251,"end":3992.754,"text":"副部長早520我們賴清德總統即將要就任就如這個《紐約時報》所說的台灣的選民斷然拒絕北京賦予執政黨第三個總統的這個任期"},{"start":4004.222,"end":4005.864,"text":"那賴總統他也承諾會延續我們蔡英文總統的這個兩岸的政策跟這個維持現狀那之前呢我曾經有請教過我們國安局的蔡局長我說有沒有任何的情資顯示就是說我們的賴清德總統上任之後呢兩岸"},{"start":4021.681,"end":4022.602,"text":"．一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":4036.93,"end":4039.452,"text":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":4062.564,"end":4065.525,"text":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度"},{"start":4077.629,"end":4083.457,"text":"提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（"},{"start":4096.007,"end":4097.649,"text":"凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":4111.181,"end":4123.69,"text":"臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環"},{"start":4135.819,"end":4140.322,"text":"協定合作夥伴關係。今年5月1日．沃爾本有舉辦了第6次外交國防部長級的2加2會議,納入了加強韓國、澳洲、日本三邊合作的內容,其中聯合聲明也特別強調維護臺海和平穩定的重要性。所以我想請教副部長,臺灣有沒有可能成為"},{"start":4166.02,"end":4167.884,"text":"未來Plus的部分有沒有可能?"},{"start":4169.131,"end":4197.408,"text":"謝謝委員這麼詳盡的這樣對地區情勢的分析我想我們國防部站在夜館立場對於全球關心台海安全這件事情我們表示感激因為現在破壞地區安全和秩序的我們很明顯知道中共對我們的威脅在每天的所有國防部所公布的所有情節裡面可以看到它幾乎都在我們台海周邊活動甚至於"},{"start":4198.408,"end":4216.781,"text":"在菲律賓、日本甚至到關島我想這個整個區域破壞這個國際秩序來講全球都引發了嚴重的關切我想地區的和平和穩定是理念相同國家都應該要共同維持的至於說台灣適不適合加入到這樣子的"},{"start":4217.641,"end":4240.078,"text":"所有的ARCS這樣子的一個在區域安全合作會議裡面的要項我想我們台灣基於在全球是民主自由的國家我們當然希望和理念相同的國家共同建立這樣子的一個機制但是我必須要強調我們可以看到台海的狀況哪怕是今天美方宣布了重大的軍售"},{"start":4240.839,"end":4267.572,"text":"中共都採取報復的行動和措施那我想在這樣子的情況之下我們國家所處的環境大家必須了解我們如何真正能夠握到每一雙手我們不見得我們今天很高調去做但是實際上從事真正的這樣子的一個這樣合作關係我想從世界所對台海關切的聲音已經表達了我們今天合作的這樣子未來的意向我想這樣子是一個非常好的開始"},{"start":4268.502,"end":4293.41,"text":"所以副部長也覺得說其實我們加入任何一類似這樣的組織可能都會觸動中國敏感的這個神經所以我們會另外用其他的方式跟各國加深軍事合作是嗎?對因為我之前我有看到就是說澳洲的副首相也就是他們的國防部長就說其實AUKUS不是他認定他不是一個安全同盟他說應該是技術共享型"},{"start":4293.99,"end":4309.539,"text":"那這樣子是不是會讓說這個組織會敏感性會比較降低我那時候在想說臺灣是不是有機會未來加入PLUS的這個部分當然我們希望爭取這個我們在未來都是努力的方向OK好以上謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝羅美玲委員那個馬委員"},{"start":4320.131,"end":4327.05,"text":"我看不到,你那同意62不同意10,我看不到,什麼意思?報告是182案"},{"start":4329.2,"end":4344.83,"text":"14案在下面這裡本席補宣告一下我們剛才報告案都已經通過了其中第9案、第12案、第15案、第16案、第21案、第24案、第37案、第39案、第42案"},{"start":4351.354,"end":4371.32,"text":"第55案（第58案（第65案（第66案（第73案等14案改移至討論案。好那其他的都通過了好接下來進行詢問委員是沈伯陽委員時間4加1"},{"start":4385.34,"end":4389.717,"text":"有請國防部跟退輔會,國防部是伯父嗎?來,伯父部長跟李文忠副主委"},{"start":4397.584,"end":4418.995,"text":"因為今天是跟預算有關的所以我最主要就是只是在追我們在這幾次質詢跟一些回覆的情形不複雜那第一個就是說這一個最早的時候是問到這些灰色地帶的一些應對準則那這個並沒有期限所以只是說希望日後我們針對這一個灰色地帶的這些準則能夠盡快的來做一些討論"},{"start":4419.975,"end":4420.576,"text":"中科院 檢察院 紅准前建 通訊安全"},{"start":4440.315,"end":4469.775,"text":"讓其他人知道說到底這個尤其是我們的敵國知道我們現在通訊發展到什麼程度那目前來講有一些加密的狀況應該都已經沒什麼問題但還有一些需要改進的地方那這個有已經在辦公室討論過了那人力這個問題我覺得當然有點非戰之罪但可能還是要在這一陣子研擬一些方案因為畢竟昨天這個聽海軍的說明是的確在這個海軍號的部分在前期的時候都已經劃不好人力了但問題就還是出在說整體海軍的人力就是比較不足啦"},{"start":4471.276,"end":4490.088,"text":"這個當然是招募的問題我覺得可能也是非戰之罪那這個下面這一個跟這個陸海空這個服役條例的一個修正案那本來是在跟退輔會但是國防部也有來討論那時候有在講說是不是在這一個國安法相關的法例也應該做一併的修正那這個我們也已經修正了所以已經送出去了這個也沒問題"},{"start":4491.188,"end":4505.236,"text":"抗彈板跟頭盔最主要還是頭盔因為頭盔現在已經換了測試的方式換了測試的方式顯然會有一些明顯的改善所以這個也還好所以退伏盔這個我待會說所以我現在就針對這個紅准紅准這個部分當時我們在問的時候最主要是在問訓練跟存放的問題因為就是要時兵時彈時地"},{"start":4514.902,"end":4528.256,"text":"這都是當時的PowerPoint說仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓最主要我們是要問目前儲存的一些措施然後安全措施是否完善最主要就是因為之前雲林的事件因為有時候你一存放居民一說什麼彈藥庫等等之類的"},{"start":4530.558,"end":4533.481,"text":"．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。"},{"start":4556.501,"end":4565.082,"text":"OK嗎?因為這等於好像沒有回答到之前的問題,所以不知道胡副在這邊有沒有什麼其他說明,或者說之後針對這個事情有沒有要做一些補充?"},{"start":4566.141,"end":4594.932,"text":"委員有關於這個紅準火箭彈存放的問題第一個先要看存放的環境那第二個是要看支援的部隊那它都跟它的作戰分區有關係所以你基於這樣子的一個考量我們在實際上存放的這樣子的一個方式事實上我不建議在這邊討論它位置在哪裡屬性在哪裡但是有關於存管的方式我相信我們這國軍在歷次有關於彈藥庫的評估和環境的評估甚至於跟"},{"start":4595.892,"end":4620.794,"text":"地方上安全的間隔距離這都是必須要考量所以整體上來講雖然這個答的很簡單但是我相信實質上內容如果委員想知道的話我們可以到委員辦公室再詳細的說明我想基本上存放跟上次幾個條例和關係都有關係所以這也討論到我們將來如何來相互支援這個彈藥的問題我們都把它考量進去"},{"start":4621.428,"end":4631.893,"text":"好,那這沒問題,我覺得如果說要到辦公室說明,因為有時候怕過度機密等等,所以這都沒問題,但可能也可以在文書上面先寫一下,就是說不然的話,這個回答說真的好像有點太短了,那再來我是要問這個退府相關的,那這個很快啦,"},{"start":4637.515,"end":4665.804,"text":"這個紅准的這個部分我就跳過說跟雲林的有點類似啦那這個就是上次講的那個質押探索因為其實這個上次跟這個副主委好像也有在討論到就是說質押探索的成效不錯啦所以呢那時候是有在講說這個質押探索他expand就是他有沒有能夠做得更多然後呢讓這個效益更好然後以及呢就是目前評估效益的方式但因為問這個問題問得比較晚所以這個部分還沒有得到這個退伏會的這個相關的這些說明所以呢"},{"start":4666.364,"end":4679.9,"text":"這個看是不是在這一個這兩個禮拜之內看能不能針對質押探索的這一個部分成效可以讓我們知道因為接下來往下就要到進入到預算會期了那我一直都覺得質押探索應該會對不管是退服或者說即將要退役的這個幫助應該是蠻大的"},{"start":4681.221,"end":4706.173,"text":"是,跟委員報告,我們職場探索辦得非常好每一次的吳季敏就來受信的都是國軍現任官兵滿意度超過百分之九十幾我們一再期待能夠國軍有十分之一,未來是全部但是國防部因為他們的戰信朋友太多所以現在增加有困難,困難在國防部好,沒問題,那這個我們之後再來看要怎麼辦因為時間有限,到這邊,謝謝"},{"start":4711.075,"end":4730.689,"text":"好,謝謝沈博安委員,各位請回。接下來進行巡禮委員,黃仁委員。有請我們國副部長。那個,博,博副部長喔。對。黃仁早。好,早。"},{"start":4740.686,"end":4768.767,"text":"關於無人機反制的系統按由113年度陸軍司令部的第五目向無人機的反制系統預算凍結200萬的一個案子請問我們副部長無人機的反制系統招標是否限制國內廠商的參標如果最後由國外廠商得標或者是變成代理商得標"},{"start":4769.748,"end":4794.028,"text":"是不是反而戳破扶持這個廠商的一個問題以及所謂的國家隊過去經濟部有提出了四個廠商那第一個就是結恆科技第二是創世達科技第三是創未來科技及雷神"},{"start":4795.805,"end":4810.483,"text":"雷聲科技給國防部做無人機反制的系統那這個所謂的扶植國內的廠商是不是最後忠告失敗這個問題所在是什麼原因謝謝委員關心這樣子的一個議題我想"},{"start":4813.266,"end":4828.998,"text":"全球在尋求無人機市場的時候它這個市場非常大那我們在國防自主上來講我們當然是尋求去除紅色供應鏈是唯一優先的考量那第二個我們必須要考量國內的廠商如果在發展上來講就跟委員剛剛講的幾家公司來講我們都去評估過那我們也希望在未來來講事實上這也牽扯到我們國內的無人機發展的未來"},{"start":4838.405,"end":4854.991,"text":"那我們當然希望能夠以這個為主但是我們也不放棄如果說在國外很多的新創公司的降無人機系統上來講如果對即時能夠支援我們的無人機系統上來講有所幫助的話我們也在考量之類所以這是要"},{"start":4855.731,"end":4879.091,"text":"看不管是國內國外如何做一個平衡來支援我們的作戰部隊我想這是優先考量快速的支援是我們的未來的方向因為時間因素簡短的就是因為目前這個所謂的這四家廠商其實他所研究的每一個效能他的能量"},{"start":4880.69,"end":4908.506,"text":"確實是有問題結果在這家廠商裡面據我知道的也了解了各有不同的見解跟看法而且所研究出來並不是達到你們陸軍的本身的這個效能所以陸軍才另起爐燒真的是浪費公帑所以我覺得如果假使"},{"start":4909.506,"end":4917.319,"text":"重新的自私加工這個廠商又回頭過來的參標參標的話你們的看法如何"},{"start":4918.359,"end":4943.539,"text":"報告員我想陸軍在評估這個的時候他是基於時效性的問題他希望能夠整合這四家公司能夠提供我們所需要的性能和那個規格但這四家公司各有長處所以我們陸軍在考量的時候當時因為時間非常短建築時間非常短所以他雖然各公司都有不同的長處可是在這裡面來講我們是希望說能夠把這個系統做一個整合將來"},{"start":4944.52,"end":4960.469,"text":"我們可能中科醫院也就負責這樣子的一個系統整合功能也就是說我國內很多在性能上來講他沒有火功的那我事實上中科醫院有具備這樣能力如何把他整併在一個系統上面那這是我們未來考量並不代表說他今天沒有沒有達到他標準未來就沒有資格來參標那這個我們希望鼓勵我們的在國內發展小型無人機能夠達到世界的規格那這個是我們未來期待所以"},{"start":4971.294,"end":4987.7,"text":"陸軍所定的只是時間上來講要求規格非常高所以在這種情況下又短的時間這四家公司經濟部所提供的所謂的扶持國內的廠商的定義就是因為希望能夠成立一個國家隊"},{"start":4989.801,"end":5006.59,"text":"那既然這四項裡面又造成了陸軍本身所經過後來他本身的一些每一個廠商你們已經檢視過了並不符合所以如果假使"},{"start":5007.831,"end":5023.319,"text":"他們在這四家廠商又回來在招標來參標的話恐怕最後得標的恐怕會引起了變成一個弊端所以這個是我本席要提醒提醒你"},{"start":5024.099,"end":5049.77,"text":"因為我會關注這個案子關注這個案子好不好好謝謝委員關心麻煩你們審慎不要浪費公帑不會不會我們一定在所有的把關的過程當中如何符合我們國際需求同樣我也希望我們廠商能夠達到我們的這樣要求我想在這方面我會努力好謝謝委員提醒好謝謝黃仁委員各位請回好接下來進行詢問委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":5060.953,"end":5064.934,"text":"副委員長,你應該知道俄羅斯在入侵烏克蘭之後接受到多少制裁?目前你覺得是幾項制裁?"},{"start":5087.597,"end":5100.29,"text":"就是他從目前所理解的各種比如說各國支援給烏克蘭的一些武器裝備那俄羅斯有做一些展示出來"},{"start":5102.137,"end":5115.117,"text":"基本上齁 抱歉我可能你可能不太理解我的問題我說國際間給俄羅斯有什麼樣的制裁到目前為止大概有16500多項制裁那包含對他外匯儲備上面的凍結3500億美金左右"},{"start":5117.3,"end":5118.421,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":5137.071,"end":5161.901,"text":"他們持續的大量購買黃金那已經到達了2262噸的新高部長是否有注意到這個狀況你覺得這是不是一個危險風險的評估在升高因為當他做這個準備的時候他就是從俄羅斯那邊有學到了他知道他會對他們的外匯做這個制裁各個國際都會但是他如果用黃金的話是不是有一個我們的安全的狀況此區的安全狀況是不是有風險的提高"},{"start":5162.982,"end":5183.084,"text":"感謝委員的指導的確從俄烏戰爭俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭之後事實上中共也不斷的在看就是國際上對俄羅斯怎麼的制裁還有在俄烏作戰攻防的過程當中中共也在學習譬如說俄羅斯受到的制裁裡面未來假設中共"},{"start":5184.195,"end":5199.853,"text":"有些他沒辦法像俄羅斯有那麼強的一個因應的一個能力比如說俄羅斯對糧食、能源、礦產各方面他有很多他自給自足的實力那現在國際上對俄羅斯的制裁最大的問題就是說"},{"start":5201.178,"end":5223.086,"text":"有一些國家事實上還是不斷地從俄羅斯購買石油天然氣所以事實上我們可以看出俄羅斯雖然在作戰而且受到制裁但是他的經濟的發展事實上還是不斷地在做成長還有他的軍工產業就是重建復甦的能量相當強相當強"},{"start":5224.747,"end":5247.162,"text":"部長我想這些都是我們觀察到的現象特別是說他為什麼能夠重建他的軍工產業當然是中國的資源不管是軍事資源、間接資源都不斷的在提供這個俄羅斯的戰爭的系統持續在下去不然這樣子的制裁其實是非常全面的也就是說我們可以從中學到說如果俄羅斯儘管在面對這麼多的制裁他還是"},{"start":5247.802,"end":5268.575,"text":"面臨這樣子的這種來自中國的這種支援來自北韓來自伊朗的話那我們也必須要預作準備包含他們過去在堡壘化他們的國家已經就是在準備在對烏克蘭侵略之前就已經在準備準備堡壘化所有的包含你剛剛提到的礦場資源等等還有包含跟中國之間的關係都預先準備如果這已經是一個事先就知道的命題"},{"start":5269.455,"end":5285.548,"text":"國安局必須要把他所有現在俄羅斯哪些是有效的制裁哪些沒有用的制裁全部統整之後必須完整的你們當然有自己的國安匯報然後統整給國防部給經濟部給財政部因為這些我們必須在今天嚇阻明天的戰爭"},{"start":5286.209,"end":5315.621,"text":"所以我們今天有得到這些資訊是非常重要的中國現在很明顯的是在學習俄羅斯怎麼樣因應西方國家制裁的方法這是在戰略方面嘛他們要透過黃金避免自己受美元的制裁嘛包含他們各種這種在其他的這種外匯的這種準備不是以美金為主開始在大量的在釋放出這個美債我們都可以看出這個信息是不斷的在提高的所以風險的溝通非常重要我們包含國防部包含外交部我們不能夠跟他說一切都在掌控之下"},{"start":5316.926,"end":5324.072,"text":"我們能夠掌控的當然權利去掌控但是有很多地方也在進化的部分我們必須要把這些訊息跟所有的國民講"},{"start":5325.546,"end":5353.722,"text":"在立法院就是一個溝通的管道剛才你談到俄羅斯我們也談到中國中俄的合作情報總監美國情報總監海恩斯已經在他的聽證會上面有示警中國跟俄羅斯開始在台灣問題的進行軍事演練那他們也希望在台灣問題上面的合作那過去俄羅斯對中國當然是有地緣政治上面的競爭那還有與日本之間的他北方的四島的真正關係那我想請教這樣子的俄羅斯跟中國之間的這樣子的合作這就是給我們另外一個話語權跟日本加強合作"},{"start":5354.082,"end":5371.289,"text":"因為很明顯的中俄之間會在中俄之間合作之後．包含在北方四島．他們對日本的壓力是怎麼樣．對台灣的壓力是怎麼樣．這個部分的情質有沒有掌握到．因為我必須要從美國的情報總監海恩斯上面．才聽到類似這樣的事情．副局長你怎麼看待這樣的合作"},{"start":5372.509,"end":5389.636,"text":"根委員報告當然日俄關係隨著二五戰爭之後的確有變化然後包括俄羅斯以前跟日本的一些對話也都被取消那我們也會加強跟周邊國家跟理念相同的國家在安全議題上"},{"start":5390.516,"end":5411.846,"text":"有更多的對話．有更多的對話．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．"},{"start":5418.109,"end":5439.286,"text":"好,謝謝陳冠軍委員。好,各位請回。好,接下來進行詢問的委員是林楚瑩委員。謝謝主席。主席有請國安局科副局長。來,科副局長請。"},{"start":5446.55,"end":5465.004,"text":"委員好副局長好今年的3月21號的時候我曾經質詢過蔡局長當時是有關於就是說國人現在前往香港旅行的時候是不是風險增加因為當時我們討論到的是香港實施了所謂的23條喔不知道"},{"start":5466.025,"end":5486.453,"text":"副局長早上有沒有看到這一則自由時報的最新新聞就是中國4月26號有一個國安新規提前實施那麼國人現在到中國去的話如果你有帶手機筆電可能都需要小心一點隨時可能被抽查我先請問這個你們有收到這個訊息嗎有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":5490.515,"end":5509.415,"text":"各位委員報告我有看到這則訊息因為它規定本來是7月1號開始實施但是目前據一些民眾反映在不同的城市已經它的平板跟手機已經被抽檢了好比如說哪些城市目前你收到的訊息"},{"start":5510.435,"end":5537.882,"text":"好像上海跟深圳有一些地方好像上海跟深圳其實是國人前往中國的時候非常主要的一個入境出口的城市因為包括我們的飛機有直航嗎是嗎現在有有好那麼所謂的這個23條跟現在中國國安部所公佈的國安新規裡面的規定跟規則到底是什麼副局長有沒有掌握"},{"start":5538.803,"end":5554.291,"text":"我跟委員報告23條是在香港但是他國安新規這些行政程序的一些加強檢查的是全國性而且他對境外人士事實上都有等於擴大的一個範圍"},{"start":5556.232,"end":5577.099,"text":"言下之意就是說事實上也不是只有臺灣人啦等於是說全世界的這個旅客進入中國現在只要7月1號他們實施的這個所謂中國國安部的條規條40條的規定那就是國家安全機關可以依照各可以針對個人的組織個人或組織的電子設備來進行盤查而且"},{"start":5582.941,"end":5583.001,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5611.874,"end":5619.576,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":5640.766,"end":5665.004,"text":"從去年他修訂反間諜法跟制定保守國家秘密法反滲透法這些之後風險就很高坦白講他還沒有訂這些規定之前國人跟外國人很多到大陸去手機平板一樣被檢查以前沒有法律規定他現在把它法制化而已所以言下之意是那麼變成是如果現在"},{"start":5665.865,"end":5688.415,"text":"中國現在要求的是他們在4月28號開放中國的團客到馬祖之後接下來包括在野黨的委員有到中國去也極力的要求台灣要全面開放團客到中國去那麼這個部分的安全事項或者是對於國人的警示或者是我們自己在國安的掌握上面"},{"start":5689.737,"end":5700.403,"text":"請問國安局現在有沒有做一些更進一步的了解因為就是這樣喔我們都希望開開心心的出門平平安安的回家但是如果現在多了這條法規就如同你所說的法制化了那它會不會有可能當我們的國人團體到了中國去之後暴露更高的風險"},{"start":5709.468,"end":5724.795,"text":"當時3月21號我在質詢的時候我特別提醒的是說香港是比較多國人會以自由行的方式去前往的所以當時局長是直接說去香港整體的危險警示是往上拉升的那麼現在如果說在野黨要求我們要全面開放的時候這些中國所設下的國安規定你們有沒有評估有沒有給予交通跟觀光相關的單位一些建言那麼你們的建議又是什麼"},{"start":5737.622,"end":5738.524,"text":"公務員報告這個風險是絕對加高的"},{"start":5743.848,"end":5770.16,"text":"我個人我引用香港特首李家超的一句話就好香港的國安法通過之後有議員問他如果家裡有以前的蘋果日報會不會違反他說違反國安法就是連你以前看的一些收集的一些報紙只要他認為你支持反送中的都違反國安法更何況說我們那麼多國人進去他看到你平常聯繫的對象還有你時常一些"},{"start":5771.02,"end":5797.627,"text":"所看的網頁、他們所禁止的網頁、網站這些都是支援民主人權理念的這些他很容易就找個理由就幫你扣下來以國安法來辦所以言下之意這些危險係數都是因為隨著中國的國安法以及香港的基本法第23條都升高的因為時間有限今天時間比較寶貴我希望國安局這邊給我一份就是如果現在真的要打算全面解決"},{"start":5798.487,"end":5809.956,"text":"就是全面的解除團客進入中國的時候的相關的國安的你們的所有的報告跟評估,可不可以給我一份?好,我們再提供給委員好,謝謝下一位請,王定宇委員好,麻煩博鴻輝副部長"},{"start":5836.55,"end":5857.277,"text":"待會有詢問的部分如果涉及機敏影響國家利益的話你可以不說但如果能夠盡量透明的讓納稅人知道目前我們國家安全或者國防事務的話我們還是盡量透明第一個我先請教一個有關博騰專案Link22現在是不是已經得到批准了"},{"start":5860.595,"end":5883.716,"text":"透明這件事情在現在Link-22事實上還是我們為什麼媒體都報導了對但是這是純屬媒體報導我認為我還不適合在這邊跟你來表達因為Link-22這件事情比較特別就是說我們之前有Link-16那個是公開的啦Link-16呢它通過一個看起來不大筆的預算其實很有意義增強通訊及網路安全它指的是在交換"},{"start":5885.097,"end":5899.85,"text":"交換軍事相關資訊的時候的網路安全．另一個16提升案．這個也許不大．還提供了相關數百人次的服務．但那個看起來是一個軍事合作．軍事共同作業的準備"},{"start":5901.038,"end":5917.008,"text":"那軍事合作軍事共同合作當然就不是我軍而已嘛牽涉到友軍所以Link16在上個月通過之後那一筆那一個軍售案其實它有一個相當大的意義代表台灣在區域安全網絡裡面它的建構"},{"start":5918.129,"end":5943.642,"text":"往前走了一步這是Link-16這個公開資訊那Link-22其實是建構是因為它跟北約有關係所以Link-22如果同意的話第一個在地緣政治跟外交上有意義代表說北約它的成員國都同意了第二個它提升跟盟友交換情資因為它有一些新的東西所以本席還是回到這個命題在博騰專案裡面"},{"start":5945.646,"end":5969.861,"text":"Link-22會不會執行．有沒有障礙．或者不方便說?報告委員,我想您剛所提到．不管是16也好．20也好．這都是先進的所謂的．我們在未來來講．一個共同圖像．或CIP裡面非常重要的一個手段．所以在各國家來講．這都是它最基本的要求．那我們國家事實上在未來先進裝備裡面．你要做整合的話．"},{"start":5970.501,"end":5986.431,"text":"把所有武器系統整合在一個介面上或是鏈路上這個是一個非常好的方式整合幾個部分我們國內的三個軍種的整合我們陳文康委員也提過圖資小到比例尺你看到的位置跟我看到的位置是不同的位置"},{"start":5987.031,"end":5999.974,"text":"大到跨軍種．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨軍種．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨軍種．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國之間盟友的整合．大到跨國"},{"start":6016.398,"end":6033.596,"text":"不是這個鏈結系統而已它要花大錢的報委員這個是要分階段性看你的任務屬性還有你的裝備是不是能夠結合我把這問題收斂一點Link 16大概公開資訊就已經講了那Link 22是不是我們國家要"},{"start":6034.98,"end":6062.574,"text":"要追求或進行的方向這都是我們未來必須考量的方向那令科二舍目前有沒有障礙還是障礙排除之前的問題沒有障礙沒有障礙好令科二舍的取得沒有障礙那我題外話問一件事情最近我看到唐華也去了那個就剛卸任的印太司令部的司令然後接下來梅家樹去新就任的印太司令部的司令看起來好像有著軍裝"},{"start":6064.676,"end":6070.068,"text":"今年的2024年環太平洋軍演即將要舉行我國"},{"start":6071.465,"end":6099.356,"text":"不管是實質上或民意上有沒有派員參與?報告委員我想這件事情從1996年這個臺海島的試射到現在為止對於這個RINPAC演習我們都積極的爭取要參與這樣的演習但目前來講因為這多國的演習不是只有關於美國它還牽涉到各國家的地緣戰略和政治的問題所以我們在這樣的區塊之下我們極力的還是要爭取像這樣的國際行動也上一次RINPAC"},{"start":6099.796,"end":6115.617,"text":"每日在第二階段軍演的時候提到周邊事態那個其實對台灣很有實質意義也跟台灣相關我印象是在2022年的8月那個時候是岸信夫還主動揭露他們在"},{"start":6116.238,"end":6129.107,"text":"第二階段真正的盟軍的軍演裡面把台海跟美日相關列入他們科目裡面在2022年那個時候剛好中共把台灣周邊劃了七塊當時這個議題被視為就是rebalance"},{"start":6133.91,"end":6158.471,"text":"讓共軍的雄兵督武受到嚇阻今年每兩年一次今年大概七、八月又要還臺北洋軍演了既然兩次其實每一次跟臺海周邊事務都相當有關不管是東海、臺海、南海今年臺灣很明顯我們並沒有受到邀請正式邀請應該沒有吧沒有實質的參與有沒有還是不方便講"},{"start":6159.372,"end":6181.46,"text":"包委員有關於這樣子的一個議題台海的狀況始終是全球關注的焦點所以不管你今天是在RAMPAC演習或在任何的ARCS他們之間的討論議題上都在議題都跟我們有關科目也都跟我們有關我在邏輯上的判斷都跟我們有關我們家不可能沒有人在那裡嘛"},{"start":6182.523,"end":6205.883,"text":"報告委員關於這個我也不方便在這裡跟你報告你會不會講我尊重我的意思是說其實那個所有的科目都跟我們有關這樣都跟我們有關如果我們沒有人在那裡那個軍演不就開玩笑嗎但是我覺得我尊重該保密的就保密但是國家安全除了我們自己強化自己的能力以外區域的合作其實也是安全的要素好不好你們加油謝謝謝謝委員長"},{"start":6210.746,"end":6240.058,"text":"好,謝謝黃定義委員那,下一位是這個林益君委員,謝謝主席好,有請國防部副部長來,國防部副部長另外一組"},{"start":6243.007,"end":6262.217,"text":"1959年的時候美國分別在意大利和土耳其這兩個北約的前線國家部署了中程核子飛彈射程可以直接打到莫斯科因此當時的蘇聯作為回應除了因此大幅增加對古巴的軍事援助外還秘密的也在古巴部署了中程飛彈"},{"start":6263.537,"end":6279.334,"text":"當時美國和蘇聯兩個核子國家差點就因為情勢的誤判引發核子戰爭這就是國際間的古巴飛彈危機所以最近美國在菲律賓北部部署了颱風武器戰那北京政府也馬上公布了"},{"start":6280.315,"end":6291.059,"text":"公布了中共軍委會的副主席和魏東接見古巴的政治部主任如獲的新聞甚至宣布會繼續支持古巴的軍隊建設雖然部署在菲律賓的泰豐武器站射程不到北京就連美國現役的戰斧巡弋飛彈也沒有核彈頭的版本但本席還是覺得若繼續在這樣的雙方的情勢發展下去"},{"start":6303.784,"end":6310.589,"text":"是否有一種重演當年的古巴飛彈危機的升溫過程?那請問副部長你覺得這次的事件會如何影響東亞的政治局勢呢?報告委員有關於這樣的核彈危機你也可以曉得最近美中雙方在未來的AI系統如何去掌控這樣的核威脅的時候各國家都在降溫因為事實上來講二霧的戰爭最近我們也看到俄羅斯為了這個戰爭"},{"start":6332.904,"end":6350.454,"text":"也在進行所謂的戰術性核武的這樣子的一個演訓的活動那我想這樣子的一個方式全球都在關切也都在降溫的情況之下如果要回到古巴那個時候的核彈危機的我想這種可能性大家都可能很理智的在控制這樣子的一個國際安全"},{"start":6352.261,"end":6352.861,"text":"中海軍艦是我國海軍現存唯一在海戰中集成中共軍艦的工訓艦"},{"start":6369.417,"end":6387.196,"text":"而且有一個歷史的意義然後我們的中海軍艦已經閒置在高雄奇景碼頭很長的一段時間了經過了解去年112年海軍文化部有先前傳出有意接手活化利用的臺南市政府在去年共事委先由中央負責修復工程並由文化部還有海軍共同編列7330萬元"},{"start":6392.581,"end":6404.445,"text":"的中海艦．基礎維護的現況調查計畫．所以在這樣考量的活化在利用之前．海軍應該儘速完成修復工程．但是從你們之前送來的．預算解凍來看起來．最後還是沒有協調成功．那對我們這一艘工訓艦．國防部最後還是要想要把它拆除嗎．還是不斷的編列預算讓它浮在馬頭上呢．而且還有海軍在今年113年度的．國防預算編列3300萬．"},{"start":6422.071,"end":6424.392,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":6444.517,"end":6472.11,"text":"潘委員我想我們也在協調文化部他事實上4000多萬海軍自籌款我們也在做我們事實上來講基本上來講我們希望這個歷史能夠保存那不管是高雄市政府或台南市政府我們也在文化部的積極協調之下我們希望這個艦將來能夠把它整修完畢以後還是呈現一個歷史的原貌供給國人來參訪"},{"start":6473.311,"end":6499.499,"text":"我想這個是非常重要的手段我們還在跟國防部在做協調據我了解我可以提供一下像國家退役的軍艦再改當軍艦博物館的展出其實在美國、日本還有英國都有很多相關的傳統像我們看一下左邊的這些簡報就是美國還有日本還有英國都有這樣的例子我們其實可以參考而且台灣唯一現在的軍艦博物館在台南"},{"start":6500.419,"end":6514.048,"text":"我們的中海軍艦作為中華民國的海軍現存極少的工訓艦難道不應該保留下來嗎?作為後代的後代了解歷史還有了解國軍如何在一場場的血腥戰役中守衛國家的見證嗎?當然我們一定要保留它所以我們這個跟文化部在合作那至於說它怎麼樣表流的方式在哪個縣市政府我想這個都是將來"},{"start":6528.413,"end":6546.565,"text":"這個艦艇所做的成展．如果放任何縣市政府．我覺得它都是對縣市政府．文化是有加分的作用．我們也鼓勵縣市政府．來爭取這樣子的一個．所謂的一個中海艦的一個成展方式因為中央的文化部．其實指出這個是重要的文物了那為國防部應該要"},{"start":6549.367,"end":6574.983,"text":"我覺得是不太夠積極的修復我們會積極之後再活化利用然後也可以考慮把整個船吊掛在路上來存放其實我覺得這個是一個畢竟它是集成中共軍艦完成使命的重要的工程所以我們希望這個可以盡早謝謝委員的提醒是我們會努力謝謝委員好謝謝林玉君委員好各位請回謝謝接下來進行訓導委員馬文君委員"},{"start":6583.723,"end":6586.789,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長來,田次長請委員長"},{"start":6593.126,"end":6621.327,"text":"市長早就我們外交部的相關業務其實有很多不管是在邦交國、非邦交國我們對於國際的援助各方面其實我們都琢磨很多那近期其實有一個比較沸沸揚揚的就是外交部氣急敗壞的去告了立法委員我想要請教一下我們跟捷克共和國簽署的有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量"},{"start":6623.889,"end":6646.142,"text":"介克方面他們是怎麼看待這件事情?介克這方面他們因為跟烏克蘭地緣上非常相近那也都是民主國家的陣營發生了這個事情呢那麼台灣當然是第一個國家可以說出來協助烏克蘭"},{"start":6647.242,"end":6666.776,"text":"這一點要特別利用這機會謝謝國人同胞在第一時間聚集了700多萬的物資還有5000多萬的資金那麼去協助難民這個舉動把臺灣又跟世界民主聯盟又緊密的結合在一起當然因為這個戰爭在2022年2月24號開始以後"},{"start":6671.9,"end":6676.242,"text":"我要問的是我們跟捷克因為協助烏克蘭的難民或者協助他們更多的醫療的量能那個部分我相信國人還有我們立法院沒有反對所以在預算審查的時候這個部分是沒有受到太多的影響"},{"start":6691.688,"end":6718.518,"text":"可是我們既然付出了這樣子的資金或者我們的經費預算的援助我想要請教我們列為密件剛剛我提到的就是我們援助烏克蘭的這個部分那捷克方面他們是怎麼看待跟我們簽署的這一份文件資料外交部有掌握嗎有掌握這個是捷克怎麼說怎麼看他們也列為非常機密嗎"},{"start":6719.454,"end":6733.408,"text":"每個國家他要怎麼做那他國家有他的制度去遵循那在我們國家呢好那次長我們看一下捷克外交部的文刊在他的現代經濟外交雜誌這也是官媒在3月26號的時候有揭露"},{"start":6739.453,"end":6748.015,"text":"發布這一千萬美元這分三年期的部分．他是公開揭露在3月26號．收錢的國家他都已經公開了．可是我們給錢的國家我們把它列為機密．而且因為這樣去提告．我想要請教一下我們現在就不要用我們國內的．機密資料好了我們就用捷克的公開資料．他上面有提到．"},{"start":6765.373,"end":6778.362,"text":"還有我框起來的這一部分還有其他的貨物由臺灣政府支柱﹖然後其中支持的條件是30%的供貨量來自臺灣企業這是在他們的"},{"start":6784.286,"end":6786.107,"text":"2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":6810.76,"end":6813.684,"text":"我先回答問題就好時間的關係回答我的問題就好因為捷克沒有中共在對付他臺灣的情況就是跟人家不一樣聽好我的問題"},{"start":6825.538,"end":6829.46,"text":"今天捷克已經公開說我們付了這樣的錢他在3月26號就已經公開中共看不到他們的相關的文宣公開的資料嗎?你怕中共什麼?你今天做對的事情你怕中共什麼?今天中共他會影響我們什麼?"},{"start":6844.309,"end":6849.85,"text":"今天他已經提出來30%是要買是我們捐出去的錢裡面30%要買台灣的企業的醫療用品這一點你怎麼看這是我們台灣要求的還是捷克要求的回答我這個問題就好台灣的醫療在國際間是非常有名的誰要求的誰要求的次長回答我的問題誰要求這30%的預算要買台灣的"},{"start":6872.634,"end":6877.198,"text":"醫療用品臺灣產的臺灣企業的誰要求的是捷克方面還是臺灣方面回答這個問題就好我請師長回答這個所協助的區域他是站在回答我這裡面捷克公開的資訊裡面這30%要跟臺灣的企業買這是捷克要求的這是我方要求的這是我方要求的為什麼這樣要求"},{"start":6901.098,"end":6903.579,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":6918.703,"end":6934.081,"text":"我們的副總統當選人他當時是去哪裡?傑克是有受到這樣的影響?我講的是受到協助的巫東地區是最危險的地區因此我們基於跟傑克政府的信任傑克他們政府願意冒這個險"},{"start":6935.222,"end":6958.228,"text":"他們願意派人到烏東地區去醫院實際上去觀察回答我的問題回答我的問題這30%要跟台灣的企業買是捷克要求的還是我們台灣要求是我方要求因為我們希望他們幫我們去戰亂的地區去看看當地實際上需要什麼然後他們看了需要什麼之後呢"},{"start":6959.248,"end":6964.753,"text":"我們基於政府之間的信任所以我們希望結構政府依據當地的需求去進行採購那你既然是跟台灣採購你就直接自己台灣採購送過去就好了阿幹嘛要把錢給人家我知道是救人的這個不用你說聽完我的話聽完我的話"},{"start":6977.445,"end":6980.308,"text":"今天你說他們要幫我們送如果是台灣的物資台灣有什麼樣他只要列出清單我們買了以後還是可以給他們這個你是多此一舉你把錢給了人家人家再把錢付給我們然後跟我們台灣的企業買這是台灣要求我現在先問今天先問這樣的問題今天在公"},{"start":6998.502,"end":7001.884,"text":"外國公開的資訊上面今天中共會打壓難道他看了捷克的公開資訊他不會打壓嗎今天如果要去救援救難要協助難民中共還敢打壓我們嚴厲譴責今天如果你花了納稅人的錢還可以耀武揚威的告立法委員這是外交部非常可恥的一個問題今天如果說我們就這個部分對外國都公開了收錢的國家都公開了你在隱秘什麼"},{"start":7028.577,"end":7045.412,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望接下來可以要求為什麼我們要這樣子在MOU上面要求我們要30%買台灣企業的醫療用品而是這樣子反覆的這樣的程序外交部要給個說法謝謝"},{"start":7047.734,"end":7062.745,"text":"就這樣子我們可以排秘密審查大家好好來問至於本國是否維持密集文件跟他國其實是兩件不一樣的事情各位請為大家讓其他委員來詢答接下來進行詢答的委員是洪森漢委員"},{"start":7080.341,"end":7100.434,"text":"請博士長來博副副部長不好意思博副部長歡迎早那個我今天想要來跟外交部這邊來討論的事情是關於這個全民國防課程跟全民國防教育的問題齁這個下一張齁"},{"start":7104.677,"end":7119.819,"text":"這個副部長你看一下我們其實通過的全民國防教育法裡面其實有清楚的講到這個本法所稱的全民國防教育其範圍其實包括了所謂社會教育這一環其實這個副部長其實應該清楚嘛"},{"start":7120.765,"end":7147.633,"text":"那不曉得可是我今天在這個法規上面我其實看到一個蠻奇怪的地方我們看到其實負責學校教育的教育部他們是怎麼做的他們其實訂了一個執法叫做各級學校全民國防教育課程內容及實施辦法在這個實施辦法這個執法下面他明確的規劃了包括課程規劃、師職待遇等等因素來把這個在全民國防教育法下面"},{"start":7149.187,"end":7155.016,"text":"主管預算凍結案等11年度中央政府總預算凍結案等11年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":7163.433,"end":7191.19,"text":"社會教育是不是也是國防部其實該去執行該去接觸的業務是不是報告委員這個社會教育本來就是我們要但過去並沒有在這個國防法裡面我們國防部有含在社會教育那我想這個是非常重要的社會教育難道國防部不用去做嗎社會教育不是國防部對沒有錯去處理全民國防教育的責任嗎是或不是是是那教育部訂了相關的執法國防部有沒有訂"},{"start":7192.674,"end":7193.157,"text":"來我請我們政戰局局長來回答"},{"start":7195.429,"end":7221.247,"text":"委員好跟委員報告在社會教育的部分我們沒有訂相關的執法但是我們辦理各項的以活動為主還有設置相關的節目比如說全民新世界這個節目年收視率有800多萬人次那個局長我要講剛剛教育部有訂了以後他們這幾年一直到現在他們的失職有到多少人目前總數知不知道總共有2100人是好請問"},{"start":7225.389,"end":7235.114,"text":"國防部在社會教育上面的師資目前多少人知不知道社會教育在講座的部分目前是44位的師資44位的師資你覺得夠不夠"},{"start":7239.572,"end":7267.143,"text":"以目前來講我們是可以滿足需求滿足需求是因為我們都是由各公務機關或民間機構來提需你們只有44個而且我跟大家說國防部的44個都是要求助理教授以上博士學歷戰略學資的這些上校或現職人員其實這些都是在軍中相對於是精英的隊伍"},{"start":7268.427,"end":7277.379,"text":"你覺得他有多少時間有辦法來做這些社會教育的課程他平常執他的勤務執行他的業務"},{"start":7278.936,"end":7304.307,"text":"他有多少時間可以來做這些社會教育的工作?因為各單位提需目前我們都可以滿足那如果未來各縣市政府或者民營機構他們有需求在師資培育這方面我們可以增開班次部長跟副部長我要跟大家說其實現在我們在國防部這邊在處理的全民國防教育裡面我們看到的事情是需求跟供給"},{"start":7306.445,"end":7332.22,"text":"斷鏈其實社會上面現在有越來越多的民防的團隊他需要相關的教育其實有非常非常多的熱忱他們需要很多這樣子的培訓但他們不會找國防部為什麼你們是不是太少了要要下到這邊去做這些請你們講做教育很困難啊所以你把你的功績做得很少你就說沒有需求這會不會有點道果為因"},{"start":7334.567,"end":7357.149,"text":"確認現在我們的民防團隊都沒有要來跟國防部來申請師資去培訓的需求嗎?確定嗎?我的理解不是這樣喔是,跟委員報告一下,義政司那邊也有跟我們有接觸那我們也有提到就是說,如果有全民國防教育講座的師資需求我們全力來協助,包含培訓都可以"},{"start":7357.489,"end":7380.019,"text":"所以我等一下跟你說的事情是恐怕是因為你的供給太少了所以需要的人他就不會找國防部嘛他自己去找他民間的師資嘛甚至這些民間師資現在遇到問題有沒有國防部來做相關的認證符不符合資格我覺得現在看起來國防部並沒有積極的作為啊就我的理解這些民間的師資也都沒有辦法得到國防部的認證啊"},{"start":7382.076,"end":7400.189,"text":"報告委員我想我們自然局在過去來講社會教育他因為在執法上並沒有明確規定所以他委員講得沒有錯他兼職的他現在任務也很繁重所以44個44夠不夠他的任務平常就繁重而且他是在部隊裡的精英的階層他怎麼去做這些事情"},{"start":7401.05,"end":7421.552,"text":"所以我要說的事情是為什麼我們不能比照教育部該有相關的執法該有相關的規定把我的目標把我的需求把我的人的來源跟經費其實全部都可以在這邊給明定清楚的為什麼不能比照可以可以我們現在委員在提醒事實上來講社會教育是非常重要的是"},{"start":7421.892,"end":7438.085,"text":"那未來如何和教育部這樣取得一個平衡我想我們國防部會努力教育部當然他處於的是在學校教育的部分他不會處於到社會教育這樣子的模式我們看我們國軍如何在未來來擴大實質的範圍尤其是我們現在在討論全民國防其實這是現在很重要的概念"},{"start":7438.826,"end":7452.931,"text":"如果還是用現在的制度跟現在這種施肢的量的話我們怎麼來因應我們要跟大家說我們要來做全民國防或全民動員所以我要請國防部這邊幾個評估好不好完善社會教育相關的執法規章包括建立訓練課程該有的認證制度"},{"start":7455.686,"end":7479.549,"text":"這部分也是現在我們有很多民防團隊他們請的師資也是很需求的部分不然大家並不知道哪一個師資是真的有能力來進行紅委員請順便講最後的題目那副長我們三個月以內提出書面報告幾個月可以?三個月可以嗎?好的三個月提出規劃的報告對嗎?好的沒問題謝謝委員提醒謝謝紅色漢委員好各位請回接下來進行尋答的委員是鄭天才委員"},{"start":7498.886,"end":7527.687,"text":"主席．各位委員．有請國防部副部長．還有外交部次長．田次長．跟博副部長請中委長．副部長好．中華民國政府．來到台灣．從大陸撤退到台灣．到現在．國防部．我們中華民國的國防部．"},{"start":7528.772,"end":7536.257,"text":"包括軍人或者是武器有沒有去支援過其他的國家從民國38年車隊到臺灣之後有沒有"},{"start":7542.25,"end":7566.666,"text":"目前來講從以前到現在過去到現在為止我們過去有少數的案例在這有做這樣的案例來支援有嘛對不對幫教國比如說我舉例來講比如說我們的直升機的贈雨行動或是我們幫教國去派訓他都有這樣子的情況發生請回座"},{"start":7570.788,"end":7595.299,"text":"外交部政務次長我們中華民國要去協助國外比如說我們就以烏克蘭協助烏克蘭中共有說不行嗎?有說不行嗎?"},{"start":7598.843,"end":7621.369,"text":"有嗎?會嗎?你要理他?怕他嗎?這不是怕他我們要把一個工作做得好我們方方面面都要顧慮到既然我們這邊是列為機密我問你外交部中華民國政府要給捷克"},{"start":7624.395,"end":7638.514,"text":"從捷克再轉到烏克蘭．或從別的國家．三個國家轉過去．有沒有告訴他們說．你們在簽的時候．有沒有說要秘密．要機密．要有人密件．有沒有．"},{"start":7640.267,"end":7663.462,"text":"跟委員報告每個國家的國情不一樣每個國家的國情不一樣他所面對的挑戰不一樣你可以最起碼先問可不可以我們不能告訴你這個要列密你這個不能列密我想我們從來沒有做過這種事情我們對自己國家我們的注意最起碼你表達你連表達都沒有表達然後現在已經公開3月就公開了"},{"start":7670.041,"end":7696.576,"text":"這第一個第二個你買好你就問他清單你要什麼烏克蘭要什麼烏克蘭要什麼提供給我我這邊買好就直接送去更快啊更快啊急啊多急很急啊真的很急啊好我問最後一個問題"},{"start":7701.114,"end":7728.275,"text":"中華民國的人民為了乌克蘭協助打戰打俄羅斯有多少位?我沒有辦法馬上告訴你但是只有我們原住民同胞也去幫忙打了仗這一點我們是十分十分的感激和感謝結果如何?"},{"start":7730.649,"end":7748.992,"text":"有多少人?原住民有多少人?原住民部分如果我沒有記錯的話,大概是一位吧。暫時的你們外交部有什麼協助?你多麼讚賞啊,那外交部有什麼協助?"},{"start":7750.684,"end":7777.283,"text":"我們應該有保養而且給他一些撫恤這個細節我再跟您報告好不好不要講細節我再跟您報告原住民什麼地方都敢去抗中保台我們是最抗中保台的所以這個部分我要特別請外交部的他是政務官我是30年公務員"},{"start":7780.049,"end":7785.453,"text":"各位請回,接下來進行詢答委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在,徐曉新委員接下來進行詢答委員,徐曉新委員"},{"start":7819.685,"end":7821.105,"text":"李文宗副主委委員好"},{"start":7834.648,"end":7855.793,"text":"副主委好,我想要請問一下,我們在救養給付的部分,4%,那是夠的嗎?確定什麼時候發放?因為可以申請救養給付的資格,可不可以先跟我們說明一下有哪一些?所以我跟委員報告,我們應該這樣說,第一,退休人員他有的制度,不是,限利人員,那基本上是條4%"},{"start":7857.633,"end":7873.76,"text":"第二、退休人員有制度,今年比照現任人員4%第三、就養制度又有另外一個制度,今年比照退休人員4%（措置今年的1月1日開始"},{"start":7875.1,"end":7892.974,"text":"那可是這些除役的官兵啊﹐他們大多都是在服役期間﹐那因為作戰﹐或者是因公﹐導致他們身心受到一些損害﹐對國家付出了自己的健康﹐那後續我們對他們的保障跟照顧﹐是不是應該要考慮得更加完善呢?"},{"start":7893.314,"end":7909.963,"text":"公務員報告你剛講的跟現在講的有一點出入所謂的我們退休就是服役嘛20年有退休另外國家為了照顧大陸來台現在大概4萬多人然後呢後來又擴大就是滿61歲"},{"start":7911.804,"end":7929.309,"text":"沒有領業退奉的退休的榮民領業退奉你剛提到的是另外一個概念就是他因公戰場這是不一樣的所以我問你的是第二件事情就是說在因公的部分像你看我這邊powerpoint有寫依據"},{"start":7932.491,"end":7946.427,"text":"這個國軍除役官兵救援安置辦法有關於它﹐是因為作戰的關係除役的部分﹐那我們現在提供給他們的相關的﹐後續的福利﹐保障﹐或者是協助﹐大概有哪一些?"},{"start":7947.128,"end":7953.075,"text":"有關因公,如果說因公智商殘,那經過檢定他並不受到61歲的限制,那經檢定完之後他是符合的話,他就是符合我們救養農民,同時他也具備農民的身份。"},{"start":7967.792,"end":7992.144,"text":"我另外能不能跟委員簡單講我講兩個很小的事情以前在因公或是因性隱命隱命那一天他不是榮民那我們主委我們在去年跟國防部合作我們現在是我們把他當作是榮民所以他的遺孀他的子女一樣受到照顧比如說在半年前那麼因公受傷的"},{"start":7993.785,"end":8015.702,"text":"那他們是沒有水電半價我再辦人請幫助他們我們全部跟他們滿足水電半價這個人很少只有兩百八十幾位我很支持我要講是其實我們很多真的但像這種即使只有兩百八十幾人我理解我也很支持你們做這樣子的服務那當然我們今天的問題是救養給付嗎剛剛我講分成兩個不同的部分"},{"start":8018.524,"end":8039.581,"text":"但是呢我們看到從2017年到2024年像以基本工資來說每年都在漲然後呢比方說像我們基本工資的月薪漲了30%那我們不要看月薪因為他們也不是屬於薪水可是我們看到消費者物價指數CPI上漲了10%那我們的就養給付調整從2017年調漲是9%"},{"start":8045.225,"end":8056.837,"text":"那副主委您怎麼看?您覺得現在目前的這個調整是合理的嗎?還是未來能夠更多?還是在什麼時間點上面我們有考慮讓它更多?"},{"start":8058.389,"end":8087.755,"text":"我不是要比較在前陣子的時候只調一次現正我們調了三次這是第一句話第二句話我也贊成像今年物價只是上漲不止4%我們調4%已經史上最高但是呢我們仍然向行政反映我們希望調更高希望調更高希望調更高這件事情我會全力的來支持因為我覺得我們的榮民朋友他們為國付出了這麼多這是他們值得的"},{"start":8088.355,"end":8109.809,"text":"尤其是現在通貨膨脹．電費又上漲．對他們來說也是一筆不小的開銷所以跟委員報告是不是關於退休金工教．跟剛講救養榮民的部分．因為這裡面有一些制度的規定．大宴的委員可以協助．是不是可以做一些．好啦好啦我們會後也能夠再繼續討論那今年預計是在5月1號發放嗎"},{"start":8114.312,"end":8132.717,"text":"那發放的時間有已經確定下來了嗎?可不可以讓大家知道一下?他是因為有一些作為程序但追溯到1月1號追溯到1月1號的時間所以我們今年會來發放那可不可以在最後總結一下那今年發放的整個調整的這個狀況"},{"start":8135.585,"end":8164.484,"text":"就是成長的狀況再跟大家稍微的介紹一下就是調整4%嘛上一次是調整2%啦所以我們認為4%仍然比不上物價調漲但是是史上最高那下一次開會再討論調整可能會是在什麼時候這個要問政府過去的經驗大概現任的金工教程員的薪資調大概是兩年到三年會調一次過去八年的經驗"},{"start":8165.624,"end":8170.625,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝許曉欣委員,各位請回。接下來進行詢問委員,楊瓊瑩委員。謝謝主席,請國防部。來,國父部長。兩位早。"},{"start":8191.628,"end":8206.2,"text":"請問大陸海警持續靠近我國的海域目前我們軍方掌握的情況究竟是如何因為民眾如果有害怕我們政府要告訴人家到底目前是安全的範圍嗎請說明"},{"start":8208.954,"end":8227.38,"text":"有關於中共海警船接近我方海域事實上我們每天國防部在所有的下午的記者會裡面的新聞稿裡面都會發布那這些狀況都是在我們的監控範圍那我們所有處置程序的都是海巡優先那我們國軍的"},{"start":8229.961,"end":8251.292,"text":"這個船艦是在側翼來協助這個海巡到目前為止我們掌控的都還是在可控的範圍都可以在可控的範圍可控的範圍內是是好現在加油是謝謝委員那我們也希望就不能有擦槍走火當然不會很重要的是安全是的是的好謝謝你那繼續呢本席要請教我們的這個軍售的問題"},{"start":8256.792,"end":8259.6,"text":"那軍買我們持續在2025年裡頭的聽證會也就是"},{"start":8266.601,"end":8287.626,"text":"有很多的議員聯署那麼針對於美國聯邦參眾議院他們的軍事委員會呢他們也在聽證會裡頭也針對於我們目前為止這個資料給我們的是說對台軍售交付研製的累積到190億也就是我們台幣的6199億是如此嗎?那說得正確嗎?"},{"start":8295.953,"end":8310.085,"text":"包委員我跟您報告因為這個軍售款項它現在所進行的都是說比如說我今天交貨了按照我們發酵書裡面的期程來付款那至於說延宕的數字不是這個數字"},{"start":8317.11,"end":8329.597,"text":"這還沒有交貨的數字這還沒有交貨的數字這不是延宕跟委員報告這不是延宕但是他們說未來要聚焦在減少羈押的訂單有這個事嗎那你會減少羈押的訂單表示往前推這些事"},{"start":8334.899,"end":8347.153,"text":"我跟您報告,俄乌戰爭到現在為止,所有的美方的國防產業在軍售上來講,對全球都是持交的。任何的理由都有,那我方怎麼處置?跟委員報告,"},{"start":8349.656,"end":8364.416,"text":"第一個在目前所有的軍售裡面我們都按照我們的合約來要求雖然有部分它在產能上面來講有降低這樣子在正常供貨情況下但是美方它也成立了有降低會不會影響到我發展"},{"start":8365.917,"end":8385.546,"text":"就是在我們的合約的期限之內他會完成這樣的交貨你還有信心在合約期限內還是會完成是的但是現在確定是他們有少量而且他們目前跟我們的進度還是有不一樣的我們每個月都在磋商開專案會議所以換句話說您給的答案就是說也到最後"},{"start":8386.499,"end":8415.572,"text":"照我們的合約不會交不出來也不會再延期這個是民眾希望要聽到的你一定要加油最後一個外交部一分鐘就好請摘要提問摘要回答跟我們友邦友好的國家怎麼聯繫我們在這個目前WHA世界衛生大會的這個部分我們有沒有收到邀請函"},{"start":8417.585,"end":8417.605,"text":"有盤點（"},{"start":8433.007,"end":8446.559,"text":"因為這個非常的重要因為我們真的非常的希望CPTPP呢資深的官員會議並沒有討論到入國會成立的工作小組的這個問題那換句話說我們並沒有納入在會員國的討論範圍內是不是如此是的這是還要雙邊的先談"},{"start":8455.066,"end":8480.009,"text":"當然雙邊新談所以這個部分也是民眾非常關心我們要好好去加油因為這個對於我們的國家對產業是影響非常巨大的我們未來CPTPP我相信應該會有專案報告歡迎到時候參加來各位請回謝謝接下來進行詢談委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員不在林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在"},{"start":8480.849,"end":8507.908,"text":"莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。﹐邱志維委員、邱志維委員、邱志維委員不在。﹐羅志強委員、羅志強委員、羅志強委員不在。﹐洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員不在。﹐鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在。﹐徐欣穎委員、徐欣穎委員、徐欣穎委員不在。﹐賴世保委員、賴世保委員、賴世保委員不在。﹐羅廷威委員、羅廷威委員、羅廷威委員不"},{"start":8508.849,"end":8514.121,"text":"以登記諮詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢,報告及詢答結束。"},{"start":8516.833,"end":8539.939,"text":"委員口頭諮詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位於跟委員約定的時間或按照我們的慣例是兩週內提供委員令約定期限者依其所定我們接下來要進行討論事項剛才我們有分成國防部"},{"start":8540.97,"end":8554.566,"text":"外交部跟國安局那國安部原來7案那我們加上馬文君委員在報告案挪過來的14案總共21案我們並在一起討論那我附帶跟各位委員宣告下午我們下午1點半"},{"start":8557.109,"end":8579.587,"text":"會宣布開會,開會的時候會宣讀條文大概2個小時宣讀條文後,因為我們上一次已經詢答大體已經討論過了我把它修正一下,我們下午就是宣達完就進行逐條的討論那所以1點半宣讀大概會宣讀到3點半左右請各不管是司法法治、國防委員會各辦公室注意時間"},{"start":8580.788,"end":8591.478,"text":"好我們現在先來處理國防部的凍結案總共21案也都已經宣達過請問在場各位是否同意解凍或有其他問題來馬委員是要一案一案嗎"},{"start":8601.015,"end":8605.917,"text":"有7案加14案有7案加14案有7案加14案有7案加14案有7案加14案有7案加14案"},{"start":8630.65,"end":8651.966,"text":"來那個給我看一下有沒有總表討論案的國防部的前7案好來那個我們先按照順序處理第一國防部的第一案到第7案的討論事項現在第7案有問題請國防部待會準備說明還有呢有沒有"},{"start":8661.494,"end":8684.7,"text":"還有第幾案?35我們先到第幾啊?不是,現在有7個案,討論案現在是討論案1到7前面討論事項是不是?討論事項沒有1到7案沒有啦然後那個馬委員你是對第7案有意見是不是?好,那是不是你先提出問題然後業管單位待會準備"},{"start":8686.617,"end":8693.54,"text":"就第7案的部分因為到現在都還沒有解決問題第一個海軍統籌辦理國軍HF通信機換裝的這個是從109年已經執行了6年考量113年度是本案原規劃期程的最後兩年所以"},{"start":8706.943,"end":8735.108,"text":"之前在審查國軍參與建案單位進度都是嚴重落後的目前的進度可還是落後所以就這個部分分配預算集中在最後一年對於本案會有很大的問題所以這個相關的分年計算的預算不合理的分配這是第一點第二個海軍說明的部分首批通信機已經完成性能的驗證"},{"start":8736.548,"end":8743.272,"text":"保密裝置雖然在112年8月就已經完成密室邏輯的計轉可是到現在為止都還沒有驗測通過都還持續在驗測當中是不是能夠在期限之前完成還有疑問所以就這個部分"},{"start":8753.577,"end":8755.098,"text":"因為114年就要完成裝備結腳安裝還入空時機的整體測試所以我們還希望再說明清楚那另外要求第三方互通測試的部分這個到目前的進度都還在去年9月份的辦理申請的作業"},{"start":8772.53,"end":8786.738,"text":"後續的進度也應該要說明清楚到現在等於說都還沒有通過就這個部分我們希望還是要持續凍結因為反正其實你也用不到馬委員提出不管是進度還有驗證海軍請說明"},{"start":8790.695,"end":8818.388,"text":"主席委員好我是海巡常務長首先跟委員做報告有關於保密建設部分在國內這個部分現在目前正在這個預計6月份開始可以開始實施那整個的驗證完應該會到8月到9月之間那等個後續的這個部分我們會持續來做國內部分來做趕工的一個驗測那後續的有關的這個第三方部分由這個中科院來做回覆來中科院第三方"},{"start":8820.288,"end":8846.257,"text":"我們JITC前年經過委員人的指導我們奉行大願我們就立即辦理後續因為他朝向要走軍售所以我們之前也請了軍備局在去年2月就開始展開那一直到今年9月他要求要因為中共不屬於國防部要求要第三方轉移所以我們9月提出這個轉移申請到國務院一直到現在還沒有下文你講的是去年9月還是今年9月去年9月"},{"start":8847.017,"end":8871.514,"text":"到現在半年了還沒效應當然我們中心已經持續了推行的5次我們現在比較樂觀的就是說因為法案國務院審查的法案它比舊也後面那今年也請站公司司長也是去協調希望能夠加速進行那這方面我想說國防部跟中院從一開始知道這個事情開始從第三方轉讓到現在都沒有鬆懈過"},{"start":8872.455,"end":8887.441,"text":"那我們想說這個案子因為今年因為今年預算只有2.3億因為海軍的集戰力我們希望能夠做完73套那希望委員能夠同意解凍謝謝那這個500萬凍結對你們的執行有沒有影響當然會有點影響什麼影響說明一下"},{"start":8893.704,"end":8913.949,"text":"當然啦,我們希望說能夠在2.3億,能夠完成73套是最好的,不然我們要先請電子來執行。剛才聽起來,海軍的說明是因為6月到8月、9月要驗證,那現在若不檢鬥的話,那時候我們沒有會期,這個是一個理由。那你這個第三方的話,軍售案美方還沒有同意嗎?"},{"start":8914.749,"end":8938.744,"text":"現在目前第三屆還沒同意因為同意之後才會給我OA的報價我們在送驗我覺得跟馬委員溝通的方式是說如果這個預算現在同意你你才能執行那當然我們就拜託解凍但如果說現在這個凍結對你們執行沒有影響或者沒有影響進度的話那這個案子我們就不要去執著我現在是請問中科院跟海軍的意見沒有影響嗎"},{"start":8944.249,"end":8947.43,"text":"你有沒有把握今年的第三方轉移的轉讓會過嗎?你能替美國說有把握?"},{"start":8967.254,"end":8987.16,"text":"因為我們又去催省了,它法案已經快審到了,美國國務院,我們繼續了解其實商售、軍售都是軍售的一種方式,但是軍售有一些流程它要跑那個馬偉英這500萬,HF坦白講啦,金額佔總比例沒那麼大這個部分,它金額不大,所以對他們的影響並不大"},{"start":8990.083,"end":9011.897,"text":"院長,請您再思考一下,這個部分對你們有影響嗎?可是它對後續的那個有影響,您慎重的...是是是,再跟委員報告,謝謝委員還有沒有其他委員有意見?沒有的話本席建議這樣好不好?因為看起來你們驗證是八、九月啦,那在現有預算應該是可以執行的"},{"start":9012.597,"end":9025.533,"text":"那第三方轉讓的部分還要待美方同意那如果你們在今年取得同意我們下個會期還可以來處理解凍案這案子我們就暫時先Pending好不好"},{"start":9027.077,"end":9027.898,"text":"現在處理的是剛才把從討論案移過來討論案的9、12、15、16、21、24"},{"start":9053,"end":9067.607,"text":"37、39、42、55、58、65、66、73共14案就我從馬委員那邊得到的理解說這邊案有些是有相通性的那有相通性的案子我們是一併討論這樣不用重複太多時間因為我們還是要留點時間下午的修法案是不是先請馬委員就"},{"start":9069.228,"end":9091.764,"text":"這14個案子你提出質疑的部分那請業管單位注意待會能夠解答我們就把它做解凍如果無法解決我們再進行討論那也請因為這一次大概只有我跟馬委員是上一屆凍結案留下來的委員其他委員沒有參與之前的討論所以大家可以也提供一些新的意見但我們還是先讓馬委員表達意見來請說"},{"start":9095.75,"end":9117.8,"text":"就第9案的部分因為其實在陸軍規劃辦理赴國內可能在公司立機構參加研習訓練還有取得專業證照跟軍事交流訓練所需的教育訓練費用這個部分在112年度它編列93萬4千元可是在113年變成4億3千多萬元"},{"start":9123.502,"end":9126.884,"text":"總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":9146.375,"end":9151.5,"text":"對阿,所以就這個變成4億3千多萬,增加463倍。來,陸軍請說明。幫委員,我是陸軍事務部常務長陳建義,謝謝委員的指導。那這個案子實際上在委員這個凍結本預算後,我們也到委員辦公室做了相關的報告。"},{"start":9168.857,"end":9182.627,"text":"最主要為什麼在112年只有93萬到了113年會調整到4億多那這個實際上也就是因應我們整個訓練的優化和實戰化的需要"},{"start":9185.709,"end":9212.935,"text":"那這些東西都是已經列入我們一個常態化的訓練也就是說我們是把它回歸和呈現到預算書表預算制度裡面那也就是這樣子的訓練是因應我們國軍的實戰化需求也就是說在113年之後包含到114年我們也都會有這樣依實際的需求來如實編列那相關的細節"},{"start":9215.336,"end":9231.834,"text":"有需要的話我再到委員辦公室向您做報告馬委員這一件第一個坦白講這個案子是不是應該放在公開預算是值得討論的那我也相信你們應該有跟馬委員那邊做報告說明但這個對我們國家"},{"start":9233.732,"end":9240.076,"text":"三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度"},{"start":9263.289,"end":9280.287,"text":"我可以去委員辦公室講清楚請龍子也講得非常漂亮的一個內容但過不了關所以我們這個同意解凍但是請陸軍務必跟到委員那邊報告這個案子因為這個案子這個案子其實相當重要我相信馬委員也了解那你們去好好說明我們這個案子照案通過接下來後續再來"},{"start":9284.973,"end":9285.154,"text":"第12案"},{"start":9298.986,"end":9318.889,"text":"這個是坑子口訓練場的部分這個部分其實還有非常多的問題所以這個部分我們要求應該要持續凍結因為它也影響到我們的訓練的一個量能在去年其實我們在討論的時候應該有提出非常明確的一個問題點所以這個部分我們要求凍結"},{"start":9319.75,"end":9340.381,"text":"報告委員這邊我簡單的報告一下這個案子我們也到委員辦公室做了5次的說明那我們也尊重委員的指導那基於這個案子的必要性我們還是懇請委員能夠支持但是也會在會後再安排委員的時間再詳細的跟您做報告"},{"start":9341.407,"end":9358.232,"text":"這個部分非常嚴重的問題是因為原來它在就是水保的部分其實它沒有放在重點它的總預算有多少11億多還9億多11億多11億多水保用了多少錢"},{"start":9359.412,"end":9384.544,"text":"委員我簡單跟您報告這個案子實際上跟我們最先的作業輸入跟專業性不足有關我們在109年設計那你還可以用這一家專管嗎?最先沒有用這家專管最先在109年設計的時候我們輕忽了這塊山坡地對周邊包含到鄉鎮的影響所以事實上我們沒有把完整的水保放進去因為你今天你絕對沒有辦法講清楚第一"},{"start":9386.966,"end":9404.503,"text":"剛開始有必要做水保那也沒關係一開始的水保的工程大概5000多萬11億多的預算裡面這個是要做訓練場的一開始他編了5000多萬可是後來他變成3億多對不對對"},{"start":9406.385,"end":9421.576,"text":"水保局他同意的是多少錢他認為我們應該要花多少錢做水保你只告訴大家就好了因為你應該要公開講農業部水保署後面同意的是他經過嚴格的把關現刊同意的是1億"},{"start":9422.176,"end":9422.436,"text":"中央政府總預算凍結案等16案"},{"start":9452.256,"end":9456.999,"text":"這個是為了M1A2做的吧?報告委員我跟您報告委員對於這個的關切最主要就是說當它水保核定是1億之後委員關切的是那原本它多的2億到哪裡去它多2億後面我們會修可行性評估然後我們會把原本在第二階段也就是王昭偉非常關切的我們會把第二階段的重要項目有些工項沒做我們會修可行性評估如果我們不提出來你那3億就花掉了"},{"start":9481.277,"end":9485.52,"text":"不可能,因為他實際只會合一役,他合一役,他這個,這樣好不好,這個案子齁,"},{"start":9490.97,"end":9513.687,"text":"我們我覺得坑此口我們值得排一個專報我們再來一項委員報告因為除了剛才水保案子其實是一議啦你們那個三議過不了啦因為你們後來根據可行性分析那個要拿掉除了那以外你們有些工項因為預算膨脹的關係把它拿走就造成那個訓場沒有達到可以完整的訓練也不能符合M1A2這種它的一些訓練等於"},{"start":9516.229,"end":9527.558,"text":"新武器用救方法,這個不好,所以在我們專報之前這個第12案保持凍結狀態,這樣好不好?是,現在委員知道,是。來,再按照順序,第15案。15案這個部分,大概也是,戰甲車掩體。這個15案不是,是戰甲車掩體。15案。"},{"start":9542.924,"end":9570.512,"text":"15案這個也是長安的嗎這不是這個是其實你這個可是你就是在很多的設計上面原來我們要的一個訓練的量能力把它縮減這個都是跟我們當初在編這個預算的時候是相違背的不管顏體也好是不是你這個類似的這個這樣子因為這個10萬塊我覺得我們那個坑子口那個案子我們盯緊一點那個其實影響很大那個不要做錯是"},{"start":9571.812,"end":9585.164,"text":"前花隊不是多少問題那這個案子因為原來它只是一個報告案阿我看的金額也是10萬我看起來它案子也是10萬塊錢而已啦我們是不要累積這麼多案子沒有解凍這個案子我們就先讓它解凍但是這個相關的事由我們把它記錄下來我們在相關專報的時候要求它說明這樣好不好"},{"start":9590.974,"end":9611.358,"text":"這一個部分他雖然錢不多啦主席他這個跟那個可能坑子口還有長安營區長安營區那個是一樣就是說你原來我們待會在長安營區處理啦稍後會先回歸啦這樣好不好謝謝委員我們這是第15案我們就予以解凍再來第16案16案沒有"},{"start":9615.7,"end":9638.453,"text":"有16案長安長安這一個跟那個鏗子口那個是一樣的一樣的是好我們一起凍結好不好是就是剛才那個過這個案子我們就把它凍結持續凍結了好再來是21自己案大概就是無人機的無人機的現在還有很多的問題我們把無人機整理一下你說21還有幾24無人機管無人機"},{"start":9650.225,"end":9662.351,"text":"21、55還有66還有3737也是我們有點像柯子牧審查一樣我們先把一樣的抓在一起21、55、66來馬委員是不是來進行詢問"},{"start":9672.963,"end":9677.592,"text":"防疫系統防疫系統防疫系統防疫系統防疫系統防疫系統防疫系統防疫系統"},{"start":9683.603,"end":9711.698,"text":"其實反無人機系統的這個部分其實我們編的預算其實大家也知道它非常重要可是到目前為止它出現的問題我想我們所有在座的委員或者說有全體國人都在關切因為你反無人機系統的這個部分它的現在能夠執行的狀況到底是怎麼樣我覺得還是說不清楚而且每次我們被嘲笑的大概也都是因為我們在這個部分無法反制那就這個部分我希望還是可以說明清楚以後我們再來"},{"start":9712.498,"end":9718.761,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等"},{"start":9736.149,"end":9738.27,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":9766.169,"end":9777.276,"text":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、處理院會交付113年度"},{"start":9796.267,"end":9816.716,"text":"整合性的功能來講只有中科院能夠滿足我們這個整個機場或重要營區的無人機的防禦所以主要委由中科院來做是這樣子的那我們這第一套的這個系統在去年年底已經在加山基地做過實測都能夠達到我們的這個所需要設定的規範跟功能效果是很好請委員支持"},{"start":9818.551,"end":9835.468,"text":"這個部分你剛剛提到有矛盾的部分因為在這個案子裡面你們買了非常多的干擾槍那時候干擾槍我們在講的因為你說幕後是最困難的因為它又小你記得當時我們在談的時候你的幕後是多遠的距離嗎?"},{"start":9837.014,"end":9837.575,"text":"二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":9858.314,"end":9870.147,"text":"我們現在要說的是其實陸軍也有建制那你的價格為什麼差那麼多這是我們希望你今天顯然是沒有辦法說明清楚因為你是一樣的東西可是你的價格卻差很多就這兩個部分我覺得都應該我也一併詢問一下"},{"start":9879.758,"end":9888.868,"text":"當然透過儀器去查之或目或或透過肉眼目或是兩個不一樣的事情是是是所以我透過儀器你那個"},{"start":9890.106,"end":9914.038,"text":"那個波長越短你可以看到越小的東西就越近視野看的就越近所以就是幾公里他看到了我接下來是要能夠鎖住他那接下來處理他你是攔阻或者干擾這都是處理方式所以單純用干擾槍是沒辦法處理事情的因為你眼睛看到的時候都已經到頭上了所以你們現在才要建制系統這點本席是支持"},{"start":9914.578,"end":9934.38,"text":"但你這個系統你說在加山測試過是合格的未來你們的建制是這個東西變成21小時就打開我隨時有進入我就查的獲得到那會很吵喔因為它那個波長那麼短隨便有個東西跑進來就滴滴滴滴我的意思說你們這個是如果你又不是21小時打開查資又要靠眼睛"},{"start":9935.541,"end":9957.402,"text":"那這個儀器又變成有點本末倒置我好奇是你們將來這個是重要的基地離島、外島、列嶼我就是24小時這個東西就是ON有東西進來我就看到了看到之後再判別判別之後攔阻是這樣子呢還是看到之後才打開來儀器再操作這個你也一併說明然後馬偉你剛才提問的部分也請你說明一下"},{"start":9958.523,"end":9976.616,"text":"第一部分針對馬委員剛剛提到說一樣的系統為什麼價格差很多那其實都是講一套系統但是陸軍買這一套系統是數量比較少的我剛剛跟委員報告的就是空軍建這個案子的一套系統裡面數量是多的一套系統包括四個預警雷達"},{"start":9977.777,"end":10003.513,"text":"是兩個被動偵測系統,兩個光電幕後系統因為我們目標鎖電是機場,重要營區,跟外島這個是不一樣所以這個價錢上差別是這樣子那第二個呢,就剛剛昭偉提到這個外離島那部分那是另外一個,不是我這個案子建的系統,目標不一樣但是我們這個系統它是可以24小時開機的只要它可以偵測到,就可以由超空台去鎖電"},{"start":10003.993,"end":10007.951,"text":"所以就有專門的人要控制這個操控台是是是會有操控台是"},{"start":10009.178,"end":10038.276,"text":"因為陸軍跟空軍都有做嘛陸軍的是便宜很多啦那剛剛空軍的說法是陸軍做的是沒有用我是覺得陸軍做的好像效果不太好目標只是不一樣因為他會來攻擊你你是反制無人機所以他會再用什麼樣的方式去干擾你外離島也是啊外離島都是陸軍建制的那外離島受到的這些無人機其實他就是無人機啊你說的不一樣那差在哪裡"},{"start":10039.556,"end":10044.398,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":10063.723,"end":10071.188,"text":"的價格也是差異很大,這個顯然他們一直沒有辦法在這個部分講清楚,那剛剛...報告員30秒,30秒,30秒,30秒,其實最主要是地理環境位置不同,那我們建的這個系統主要是針對機場這種比較大型的範圍,我舉個例子來講,以機場來講一個跑道為什麼需要4個預警雷達,"},{"start":10086.778,"end":10087.638,"text":"主管預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等16案"},{"start":10107.546,"end":10134.402,"text":"那我們國家不管是就機場、機敏基地或者離外島無人機的防禦其實很重要我曾經也跟中央提過你們有一個一打開那個GPS就是它那個就會它到那邊GPS就失效的那個最簡單我如果列嶼沒有那種導航設備的話你就是打開來讓所有的無人機商用的飛到那裡都無法控制就解決了你不能老是靠阿兵跟永慶看啦但是題外話那馬委員我是建議說這個部分因為"},{"start":10135.522,"end":10159.338,"text":"這確實是新的威脅那曹參謀長他其實他該講的就是不同的基地不同的需求那個雷達一顆價格都不一樣我們是不是給予解凍那有關無人機的防禦編制你看他有一個控制台你還有一個人在那裡那個專長編碼什麼的我們將來好好來盯這個案子那現在讓他趕快把這些該建制建制起來"},{"start":10160.776,"end":10168.93,"text":"我不好意思我也是反對解凍喔因為我也希望說那是不是能夠來先跟我們說明之後那再考慮解凍謝謝"},{"start":10170.643,"end":10193.129,"text":"你們之前沒有去說明嗎?因為之前沒有對徐委員說明沒有對我們說明過因為這是上一屆凍結案所以我們也希望能夠先說明之後再解凍因為既然剛才聽過了馬委員的說明也聽過了您的說明之後那我覺得這個事情讓它相對的複雜所以我希望說是不是能夠先來跟我說明之後我們再討論要不要解凍謝謝"},{"start":10194.869,"end":10215.945,"text":"草三部長,在凍結的金額對於你們線下執行上產生什麼影響?現階段如果時程延後是還可以執行。那時程如果不延後勒?有影響可以講嗎?就是說委員是希望了解更清楚,希望更好。我們一定去跟委員說明清楚,是不是可以委員支持先。"},{"start":10216.365,"end":10239.962,"text":"主席因為其實我們無人機編了很多的預算你在期程會不會延後你們自己心裡很清楚你們有很多的因素可能是其他的還包括廠商的問題等等我相信你們都非常清楚我們現在要的是你其實真的能符合我們的需求不管你在島內不管在島外無人機未來還會用上很多"},{"start":10240.542,"end":10265.625,"text":"沒有必要在現階段你為了一點點這樣子的凍結預算然後就稀哩哈啦啦的就把它弄過了這個部分我們要求因為按照規定我們這一次委員會裡面都是新的委員包括所有在場的委員我相信他們都沒有聽過照理說你們應該也要通通說明清楚就這個凍結的預算我相信沒有影響而且剛剛"},{"start":10266.906,"end":10282.501,"text":"稍微在講的時候我們把它全部都濃縮然後可以過的全過了就留這三個所以還有37這個部分它的部分我相信我們還有時間來做討論好不好所以你們不需要在這裡集這個你們都還沒有報告過嗎這樣好不好這個"},{"start":10290.732,"end":10308.569,"text":"這個案子我是建議新一屆的委員對於舊的凍結案他不清楚他沒辦法給你解凍啦我覺得這個合理啦那我們也本委員會也不要我們累積太多這種凍結案塞了一堆啦那我會是不是建議這樣子大家參與看看啦因為21案是凍結200萬55案是空軍的凍結300萬66案好像是自通電的凍結200萬我們是不是"},{"start":10316.596,"end":10333.607,"text":"主席,不要再把他分開啦,因為他這個都一樣,真的啦,你就讓他,這樣比較好。因為其實從我們委員會開始到現在,那這些凍結案應該國防部都是知道的,所以也知道總有一天,比如說像我們今天是要審查的,"},{"start":10334.728,"end":10356.063,"text":"如果他們知道今天要審查這些費用非常的重要如果今天沒有解凍他們會有問題的話那他早就應該要到各委員會辦公室裡面像我們包含是今天在外交委員會裡面這麼多新客委員就要先說明了呀他們會向提案委員做說明那現在有新的委員提出意見的話這樣好了21、55、66還有紅山委員"},{"start":10364.53,"end":10382.936,"text":"確實過去部會習慣的說明他會是跟提案委員去做說明但因為這一次現在我們是新的一屆那提案的委員其實他可能都會把我們沒有視為提案委員可是我覺得大家確實都非常關心無人機的問題所以我自己是覺得至少就無人機的議題的凍結案來跟"},{"start":10385.217,"end":10398.063,"text":"我們其他的包括我自己我不是新委員但是我外交國防的委員我其實也很關心那我覺得大家可以再來報告一次關於無人機的凍結案的部分好不好這部分我是覺得可以這樣處理我們就這樣處理啦21案、55案、66案、37案我們持續凍結待這個相關單位跟各委員溝通解說我們再來列解凍這個是到37啦那接下來"},{"start":10414.532,"end":10441.088,"text":"24、39、42、55、58、65、66、73、80這邊還有沒有什麼要提問的?這幾案也是無人機啊?都是嗎?全部都是無人機嗎?24是無人機。24是無人機。24是無人機,那就一併保持凍結啦。然後還有呢?39是2。39是魚叉飛彈。我們39案是不是就有什麼問題提出沒有的話,我們就讓他解凍啦。"},{"start":10441.833,"end":10467.929,"text":"餘差這是設施整建,到現在其實還是落後非常多,然後你的那個像雲林湖尾營區可能被抗議,你也沒有辦法決定嘛,這個部分其實你也沒辦法做啊,所以其實我覺得你凍結並不會影響,因為你沒有辦法執行。那就這個部分還是在審慎的說明以後,也讓所有其他的委員知道一下。是,這個凍結有沒有影響進度?"},{"start":10470.032,"end":10494.469,"text":"當然凍結一定是影響,但如果說有新委員、新會期,我們就是配合再說明再說。與差當然是重要的案子。除了工程之外,還有部分就是陸陸續續的車跟其他的裝備,今年底跟明年都會到。那些部分不會影響,所以我想還是...其他委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":10497.93,"end":10505.612,"text":"沒有的話我們就繼續凍結喔那42、55、58、65、66、73這些都無人機嗎42是無人機42是無人機還有勒好我們這樣啦無人機我們就不另外處理啦就持續凍結啦那55、58、65、66、73來請馬委員他是什麼55也是啦55也是無人機啦55"},{"start":10528.216,"end":10538.064,"text":"555也是無人機沒有555是詠音高叫機的地面模擬555已經處理完了沒有555了555剛剛已經持續凍結了58詠音的話我們是不是讓他過了好不好58案解除凍結然後再來6565"},{"start":10551.136,"end":10571.621,"text":"資訊系統維護案65解凍、66凍結、73外骨折系統這個部分我們要求凍結好不好因為你們沒有說明清楚外骨的這個已經你外骨折好像做到第二代了是不是接下來外交部的"},{"start":10575.12,"end":10591.414,"text":"這一次是做第二期我們第一期是做了負重型跟野戰型的半套那做的成果其實都外面都展示過都很清楚這一期做的就加上尖跟軸了"},{"start":10592.775,"end":10618.853,"text":"上一期做的我們荷重型的大概會減輕三分之一的重量我們加了尖跟軸的叫做全身野戰型的話這個會減低二分之一我們這個會預期要做兩套這個我想這個我們在歷次的航展都展示過那個案子也頌受大家的重視我希望這個經費請委員不要凍結因為它是一個正向的發展希望國軍都能夠"},{"start":10623.495,"end":10636.539,"text":"目標如果就中科院來看都是正向的發展只要所有的相關國防武器發展其實也都是正向的發展可是我們現在要說的是第一你在109年到112年你已經有執行肌耐力增強型的這些外骨骼系統的研製跟驗證那你現在到116年又是另外野戰全身型的到目前為止"},{"start":10648.383,"end":10669.95,"text":"我們看到的就是說﹐它的關聯性﹐比如說它的新案跟前案之間的關聯性﹐其實你們還沒有辦法做明確的一個說明跟澄清﹐還有對未來野戰步兵砲兵的運用﹐除嚇眾需求以外﹐它的相關靈活度﹐還有工程等相關的指標參數﹐都還沒有﹐而且這個凍結數﹐我先處理一件事情比較簡單的﹐"},{"start":10673.691,"end":10686.178,"text":"因為僑委會跟退府會完全沒有事項我們是不是讓他先離席還是讓他們回去上班比較重要各位沒有意見因為僑委會跟退府會沒有案子我們就讓官員先離席僑委會跟退府會可以離席了謝謝馬委員繼續"},{"start":10690.785,"end":10713.595,"text":"那就這個部分因為我們現在的凍結數對你們其實沒有太大影響就這個部分我們還是希望你們說明清楚以後再解凍好不好那個這個外骨肝我有去看過你們那個這個其實除了是各莊將來可以輔助以外其實對將來長輩老人這個其實是有幫助就是我們現在到我們這個年紀爬樓梯腳膝蓋會痛的時候"},{"start":10714.615,"end":10739.087,"text":"這個其實是有幫助的啦那這個預算現在凍結的是你們的預算可是這個案子其實是國科會的委辦案沒錯所以我們沒有凍結到這個案子本身我們反而是國科會請你們幫忙研製結果我們凍了你們的錢原來這個案子其實是國科會的啦是不是因為他已經到第二代了然後也增加一些外骨骼了所以馬委員這個案子是不是能夠讓他過"},{"start":10739.827,"end":10754.232,"text":"主席因為這個部分我們剛剛有提到相關的問題就是你只是凍100萬我剛剛提的問題你們把它說明清楚好不好對你們沒有影響我們預算總額1億4我們凍100萬而已啊好那就這個第73案保持凍結好我們接下來來處理的是外交部"},{"start":10764.855,"end":10770.568,"text":"外交部的討論案總共有4個案子,不知道有沒有委員有要提問的?來,曲曉欣委員請"},{"start":10776.015,"end":10796.952,"text":"第三案我找一下序號1234第三案這邊就是113年度18對外捐助凍結100萬元案因為呢這個當時裡面寫到了加強多邊合作的獎助獎補助費的對外援助裡面"},{"start":10797.833,"end":10825.28,"text":"那當時其實我記得黃國昌委員他有提到說中美洲銀行之前有資助過獨裁者相關的新聞那這部分的了解還有這邊的貸款是否有追回利息有照收嗎還有媒體披露過說中美洲銀行的放款從2020年到2022年批准了13筆發展政策的貸款總額超過25億美元但幾乎只"},{"start":10825.64,"end":10829.162,"text":"．一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算．外交部主管預算．外交部主管預算"},{"start":10844.088,"end":10873.248,"text":"所以在這個中美洲銀行去年112元3月同意說113年下半年要花這個1000萬邀請貝里斯跟瓜地馬拉考察電動車那這個計劃我覺得應該要說明為什麼要花這麼多錢單單一個考察就29萬美金將近千萬台幣我個人覺得是蠻誇張的所以這個部分希望先凍結那詳細跟我內部說明之後我們再解凍"},{"start":10874.821,"end":10887.95,"text":"來 我先處理一個程序案問題喔 國防部的案子都討論完因為國防部將領在這邊太多了 我們是不是讓他先回去上班然後下午要審查必要的人再留下來 其他人就可以先離席 好不好"},{"start":10891.175,"end":10892.436,"text":"國防部主管預算凍結案等11年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":10910.31,"end":10921.542,"text":"那我覺得這是很基本的事情,所以我們今天在這邊做這樣的結論,那我覺得這部分接下來要請你們落實,盡快把這件事情配合,越快處理,越快落實我們越快處理。請副部長跟副長室督導一下。我們國防部對於所有新任委員,所有案子不但不認其招,是凍結案的,就跟我們說。"},{"start":10927.068,"end":10931.109,"text":"徐曉清委員提出的是外交部的討論事項的第三案,那外交部有沒有要說明?還是沒有意見就繼續凍結100萬?"},{"start":10950.88,"end":10974.135,"text":"報告委員,高委員垂詢的問題,因為我是主計,我比較沒有辦法答覆。沒有辦法答覆就不用上來了,好不好,我怎麼會讓主計上來回答。這樣好了,我們第三案就持續凍結,待說明期我再處理,其他沒有意見的話我們就照案通過,好不好。接下來處理的是國安局。"},{"start":10975.896,"end":10998.342,"text":"國安局有幾項?一項而已。國安局只有一項。那個外交部處理完了也請回部辦公。然後再來是國安局的凍結案各位有沒有意見?沒有意見的話國安局我們就照樣解凍喔。本次會議"},{"start":10999.724,"end":11004.366,"text":"到此結束現在散會提醒各位下午1點半我們要另外一個會議好謝謝"},{"start":11027.233,"end":11034.639,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":11044.226,"end":11046.048,"text":"2）三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"}]}},{"id":"15890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15890","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea35675eb71f9bc6ae9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be49e42251f17d090885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-08","start_time":"2024-05-08T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-08T19:21:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":39061,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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},{"start":2437.464,"end":2465.186,"text":"那第17條的部分主要我們全國的村里長已經有7748人村里長的工作壓力非常非常的大所以里當應該要給予春節慰問金所以本期的提案是1.5個月的春節慰問金另外最重要的也就是說因為我們的村里長沒有薪資所以我村里長在他們"},{"start":2466.567,"end":2483.215,"text":"應供商王的這個部分應該給予這個協助跟補助這個是特別來提出敬請各位同仁以及行政部門我們一起盡快研討完成可以更加的讓我們整個的體制更加的完整"},{"start":2484.984,"end":2504.451,"text":"好謝謝謝謝我們楊從英委員的信託那我跟各位報告因為我這一次有安排我們內政委員會針對我們村里長明代的我們的金額的提高以及我們的補助費因為我是來自最基層我是"},{"start":2505.331,"end":2522.405,"text":"做過市民代表以及縣議員市議員到現在立法委員所以地方的事務我非常的清楚所以我還特別擔任召委特別來辦這一次我們的明太明太的事務會以及我們村里長"},{"start":2523.907,"end":2538.257,"text":"的費用所以我也很感謝國民黨的共識還有民眾黨還有民進黨大家的共同的共識才來出委員會那現在我們下一位就請我們徐新穎委員"},{"start":2547.581,"end":2563.14,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天非常多的委員提出來那本席的版本最主要說明就是有關目前縣市議員還有鄉鎮市民代表的研究費按照現行的規定縣市議員是新台幣83,150元"},{"start":2565.743,"end":2580.795,"text":"相信市民代表是61830元這樣的費用呢對於一個民意代表會及民意運行民主的機制這種重要性來說這個費用實在太低了而且工作也是非常的繁重所以"},{"start":2582.636,"end":2603.629,"text":"本條例第3條規定直轄市議員的研究費標準是參照直轄市政府所屬一級機關首長包含了本縫專業家級以及主管職務家級而立法委員行為法第13條也有規定立法委員的待遇是比照中央部會首長"},{"start":2604.409,"end":2624.83,"text":"由此可見民意代表的待遇應該要完全的比照所監督政府之一級機關首長的待遇但是現行的縣市議員還有鄉鎮市民代表的研究費的標準並沒有納入主管職務佳績所以本席認為應該加以修正那本席的提案修正之後"},{"start":2625.65,"end":2654.63,"text":"縣市議員的研究費會提升到新台幣102280元鄉鎮市民代表則會提升到69350元不但符合實際需要而且跟立法委員直轄市的政府議長議員還有縣市議會的政府議長鄉鎮市的政府主席的代表的待遇也較為平衡所以再來就是"},{"start":2655.37,"end":2684.362,"text":"每一個縣市議員他的助理費的這個總額呢現行規定是8萬元但是助理的工作繁重程度呢按照現行規定不夠彈性不只不利於縣市議員的問政工作也不利於助理的勞動權益所以本席提案修正將縣市議員每月助理補助費用總額提升到新台幣15萬元敬請各位委員支持本席提案謝謝"},{"start":2687.959,"end":2691.445,"text":"謝謝 謝謝我們新書院委員那我們下一位王美惠委員謝謝"},{"start":2699.059,"end":2709.962,"text":"只是在這本身提案說明在這裏面我覺得說在上禮拜後大家都看到什麼叫做割地外賣在這個里長的存摘會員金的獎金也好在議員的助理也好我覺得今天你們看到每一棟大家都很關意來這裡"},{"start":2727.768,"end":2732.373,"text":"討論：因為在本縣所了解：和我聽會期所做的：我們有討論說里長的事務費4萬5條錢及5萬：這是一個有當當的政府就是說：要怎樣去比較去做好好：來讓我們的當地里長"},{"start":2752.947,"end":2753.487,"text":"我認為這是大家要討論大家要看怎樣"},{"start":2770.58,"end":2770.6,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":2789.725,"end":2793.267,"text":"去瞭解這個財政的問題：我相信里長提供獎金7萬5就等於15萬位有時候我在早上的時候里長都說：我們這樣做到要死、服務到要死：我們是不是到時候若我們鼓勵一下這個"},{"start":2811.144,"end":2829.318,"text":"每年代表這個收金我隨時找我告訴你委員我又聽回去為什麼有說了這件事是不是我又再次提出跟前面你們差不多覺得怎麼樣剛好你剛才說我不要要求多少我教你們的收金一樣一句半話一句半話就是"},{"start":2837.964,"end":2849.727,"text":"7萬5所以本身也提這個提案草案的選擇可以在里長提出7萬5的獎金再來做你的選擇我也來做第一次我做過議員說實在的一個專業的議員真的說都沒有做什麼什麼都要服務的選擇真的"},{"start":2861.93,"end":2861.95,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":2891.906,"end":2897.308,"text":"王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員"},{"start":2926.351,"end":2943.738,"text":"議員跟媒體記者大家好我是來自地方那最主要是要來表達就是我們直轄市跟縣市議員的助理費用24年沒有調整所以本席是調高到每席每月不得超過新台幣32萬與16萬元那立法院並"},{"start":2949.658,"end":2966.751,"text":"並參照明定公費助理適用勞動基準法及卓以春節慰問金還有他的加班費勞工保險費及全民健康保險費勞工退休金支雇主應繳提繳的部分有議會列預算之印"},{"start":2968.434,"end":2992.061,"text":"參考立法院組織法第32條規定明定公費助理補助費用總額加班費、之前費及職業災害補償等補助費用應該比照軍公教員工待遇來調整還有村里長的工作防守及類似24小時的服務他們的事業補助費應該是調高到5萬5千元並"},{"start":2994.045,"end":3000.032,"text":"主要與春節慰問經濟出國考察費用令提高他的意外保險到1000萬元以上"},{"start":3023.216,"end":3046.716,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝各位大家不分黨派的要支持這一次民代條例的修正那因為其實這件事情我從過去在議會當議員的時候每一個會期都都非常努力的在呼籲那當然過去在議會也是希望說中央可以傾聽到我們地方的聲音那現在有機會來到立法院我第一時間就馬上送案了"},{"start":3048.477,"end":3061.005,"text":"民意代表費從2000年立法以來議會助理的費用總而從來都沒有調整過直轄市的補助支都是24萬縣市議員則是8萬相較之下這20年消費物價指數上漲了23%軍工教也調薪了5次達到了16%基本工資的漲幅則是73%在這樣子所有的指數都陸續的調漲之下"},{"start":3077.716,"end":3101.308,"text":"連立法委員的公費助理的費用也都有隨著軍公教的條幅不斷的在調整當中唯獨就是地方縣市的議員的助理並沒有所以過去我也都努力的想要把我的議員來爭取那所以在我的版本裡面也是希望我們助理可以有更合理的待遇讓這些做政治工作的助理他們也認為這是一個有尊嚴的工作有專業的工作所以"},{"start":3104.249,"end":3132.906,"text":"包括加班費、資遣費還有這些比較軍公教調整的比例我都認為應該要放進去讓這個待遇可以更正常化讓政治工作的環境是更健康的也提升我們的問政品質那村里長也就更重要了過去三年期間在疫情期間村里長非常非常的辛苦他們對社會的貢獻也是大家都看得見所以我也修法支持村里長的年終獎金增加到七萬五千元"},{"start":3133.266,"end":3141.553,"text":"以及原住民議員的問民服務費還有原住民的村里長的事務補助費也要增加10%希望超越的黨派大家一起來支持謝謝"},{"start":3156.244,"end":3180.652,"text":"主席我們以後同仁本期這次的提案說明我也跟各位報告我在上一屆跟完美會委員我們都共同提出我們的里長事務費增加了五千塊就來到五萬塊那這一次因為我們民代還有我們的里長大家所提出的因為我們都是來自基層我當過"},{"start":3182.586,"end":3197.142,"text":"市民代表、縣議員、市議員、立法委員所以我們都非常了解地方的里長以及我們地方的民代的心聲所以我這次也提出了就是我們的里長能比照我們的春節慰問金1.5個月"},{"start":3203.428,"end":3203.848,"text":"議員的處理會根本都不夠"},{"start":3233.345,"end":3234.006,"text":"國民黨及民眾黨及民進黨共事"},{"start":3262.072,"end":3266.136,"text":"感謝吳政委提案說明,請吳立法委員提案說明"},{"start":3301.684,"end":3313.1,"text":"主席各位立院同仁各位行政機關同仁大家早安武力化做提案說明今天的提案呢我要先感謝內政部跟行政院"},{"start":3314.201,"end":3334.766,"text":"因為今年討論的這個條例從2000年制定施行以來第一次看到行政部門主動提出大幅的調升不僅修正議員助理的聘任制度及相關費用更主動的考量原住民族服務的範圍交通的特殊性而增加補助"},{"start":3335.806,"end":3353.065,"text":"事實上我在行政院上位推出版本之前也已經透過質詢公文反映了地方的意見上一屆也提出過村里長事務費提高5000的修法版本所以我非常樂見行政院提出的條例草案"},{"start":3354.026,"end":3377.649,"text":"內政部參考基本工資跟物價的調升：把直轄市議員的衛民服務費從2萬調升到4萬現市議員從9千調升到2萬代表從3千調升到5千為基數並且特別考量原住民族地區的服務成本額外增加10%的金額作為地方民代服務的費用所以我也提出我的草案修正重點如下"},{"start":3378.63,"end":3390.614,"text":"第5條在原條文不作變動的情況下我參著內政部對第5條附表的修正將為民服務費提升直轄市議員從2萬提升到4萬縣市議員從9千調升到2萬鄉鎮市民代表從3千調到5千另外我也在附註中註明"},{"start":3396.756,"end":3425.376,"text":"原住民的直轄縣市議員及鄉鎮市民代表為民服務費每人每月增加10%第二在第6條參考基本公司及物價指數提升地方民意代表的助理補助費將直轄市議員的助理補助費提升到30萬縣市議員的助理補助費提升到14萬鄉民代表的助理補助費提高到6萬以及要求議會及代表會應據此基準發放年終及春節問老金那最後呢"},{"start":3425.816,"end":3443.028,"text":"我要再次提醒我提案版本的不同之處除了各項費用的挑針我也特別關心注意地方民代鄉鎮市民代表的需求那懇請各位委員特別是原住民委員的支持那希望大家一同來支持這一次的修法謝謝好謝謝我們的吳立法委員的提案聲明那我們下一位請我們的吳佩儀委員"},{"start":3465.334,"end":3484.324,"text":"謝謝主席我針對我們地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費的條例也提出了我的修正草案的版本那我過去在市議會服務5年然後跟我們的地方的助理跨縣市的助理成立了提升助理"},{"start":3485.144,"end":3490.748,"text":"在參與的過程當中我們感受到台灣其實有非常多的年輕人願意把他們的熱情把他們的人生來投注在為民服務的工作但是我們也感覺到因為為民服務的這個範疇事實上是無窮無盡的這個時間可能是從清晨3點到晚上10點11點"},{"start":3508.3,"end":3529.995,"text":"而這個範圍的類型包括了選民的服務地方社區的關懷以及法案的政策相關的研究事實上範圍也是非常廣的那韋伯有一句話說政治就是要並施熱心跟判斷力緩慢的去穿透木板的工作但是我們如何讓我們最基層的政治工作者"},{"start":3530.655,"end":3553.7,"text":"在穿透木板的過程當中不要先被木板壓倒了所以這個勞動條件的提升至合理化至對它是非常的重要所以呢這次這個法案的修正條例第一個我們就希望來提高助理的薪資至合理的條件因為我們已經24年都沒有去調整我的版本是這個六都議員的助理的薪資我希望提升至總額36萬"},{"start":3555.58,"end":3555.6,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":3576.84,"end":3601.043,"text":"以台北市議會為例市議會其實已經準備好要編列這個預算就待這個修法通過之後我們就可以讓我們在地方的這些議員的助理得到符合相應的勞動的條件所以呢我要再次的感謝很多人大家的支持那也希望今天的提案可以順利的來通過讓我們的政治工作者能夠"},{"start":3601.724,"end":3606.648,"text":"在適合合理跟正當的勞動條件下繼續來為民服務謝謝"},{"start":3629.215,"end":3653.875,"text":"非常謝謝今天召委排了這個地方民意代表費用支給和村里長事務補助費的補助條例的草案提案說明那麼今天我有兩案其實呢我們就不針對這個因為所有的民進黨也好民眾黨也好國民黨團也好大家都對於這個部分是特別特別的關注所以今天非常多的委員都提了版本但是我要特別對於原住民族的部分"},{"start":3654.475,"end":3670.857,"text":"對於原住民族的部分我們會看到村里長的服務品質其實是要求日據提升的然後他們除了為民服務之外他還要替政府地方政府來宣導所有的政策他們盡力要扮演好人民跟政府之間的窗口"},{"start":3672.057,"end":3699.154,"text":"這導致各地方的村里長他的工作日益的增加然後又因為近年的物價通盤嚴重然後村里長的事務費不敷使用所以我非常感謝3月8日在召委提案之前3月8日我們的部長到我辦公室來的時候我跟他提到對於原住民地區還有偏鄉地區不管是議員的助理費用或者是他的衛民服務費用或者是這個村里長事務補助費用"},{"start":3699.734,"end":3724.687,"text":"如果齊頭式的跟一般的民代一般的議員同樣增加費用的話這是不公平的不公平所以呢謝謝部長也特別針對原住民的部分還有村這個偏鄉的部分對於這個極具的距離呢他會有通盤的檢討然後再增加10%不管是議員的這個為民服務費"},{"start":3728.048,"end":3750.836,"text":"10%增加10%或是村長的事務補助費10%增加10%我都覺得這是非常合理的我認為呢我舉一個例子來說好了花蓮縣的秀林鄉它的富士村它的面積要比台北市基隆市新竹市還有澎湖縣還要大"},{"start":3752.216,"end":3765.813,"text":"所以我們在各個的委員版本裏面並沒有提到這個所謂的極具的差距的部分但是在我的版本有提到也非常謝謝我們的部長的支持我希望這個增加的費用"},{"start":3767.099,"end":3789.266,"text":"除了要好好討論之外我們也希望是來中央來增加這個費用因為如果讓地方來配合這個費用的話越窮的縣市他要提出的這個金額相對的就越困難所以今天在討論的部分可能會針對於除了這個費用的提高之外可能還會討論到"},{"start":3791.846,"end":3808.133,"text":"這筆經費到底是由地方支付還是由中央來支付我希望今天大家如果有共識的話大家可以好好的討論畢竟這是所有民意代表跟村里長他們長期以來的不公以上謝謝"},{"start":3816.243,"end":3818.894,"text":"那下一位請吳錫臻吳錫臻委員的提案說明"},{"start":3834.925,"end":3860.124,"text":"主席還有各位官員各位委員大家好今天的提案說明主要是針對地方民意代表跟村里長的補助費的第7條的提案說明因為大家都知道村里長是最基本最基礎的我們的民選的行政首長但在實際的這個行政體系中他並沒有太多的自主的這個決策權但承攬了大多數的基層的服務的工作"},{"start":3860.504,"end":3877.501,"text":"不但要主動服務民眾還要配合政府的政令宣導還需要整合社區的資源而且提高對村里民的服務所以村里長的辛勞比起民意代表可以說是有過之而無不及所以在地方上我們都常常暱稱村里長是土地公"},{"start":3878.101,"end":3900.675,"text":"因為他們真的是守護地方最重要的最基層的第一環當然我想常常也都是一人當選全家在服務甚至鄰里的糾紛的調解甚至黑白喜商的節慶村里長不只要協助還要協助家屬處理各項的細節這都是村里長的日常的業務工作"},{"start":3901.095,"end":3916.385,"text":"那尤其村里長事務補助費在民國111年4月15號經立法院三讀通過從4萬5調整到5萬元那調整的幅度只有11%但主計總署公布2023年每人每月的薪資平均是5萬5千"},{"start":3917.746,"end":3917.966,"text":"村里長的補助費"},{"start":3934.941,"end":3962.328,"text":"2022年調高的五千塊都被這個通膨跟台電吃掉所以目前村里長事務補助費並沒有辦法反映村里長的這個現實生活的需要所以本席在這邊修正我們的第七條草案希望能夠支應除了發放村里長的春節慰問金增加到七萬五千元也希望能夠支應其保險費、健康檢查費還有衛民服務費三千元以照顧村里長的日常所需"},{"start":3963.408,"end":3968.671,"text":"還有針對這個部分因為地方的財源困難希望這個財源也能夠由中央買單謝謝"},{"start":3995.74,"end":3998.383,"text":"提出第6條的修正說明"},{"start":4013.7,"end":4029.386,"text":"這個條例為什麼必須要提出來做討論在目前的規定裡面縣市議員的助理費8萬在目前我們的國民的基本工資已經從24年前的15840調整到27470那這一個27000"},{"start":4041.004,"end":4055.456,"text":"470呢在縣市議員他已經沒有辦法聘請到第三位助理所以你看這一個問題我們應不應該來修正那從縣市議員的這個助理費回推我們的直轄市議員的助理費一樣"},{"start":4056.477,"end":4074.405,"text":"也已經超過24年沒有修正的調整了所以我們提出了修正希望從縣市議員助理開始做一些調整之外連帶直轄市議員的助理費也相關做一個調整那剛剛有其他委員提到目前"},{"start":4075.766,"end":4098.498,"text":"我們這個社會新鮮人的平均起薪已到三萬五千元中位數到三萬一在地方議會沒有做這些調整的同時已經沒有辦法再聘請到有更年輕的助理願意投入這個公共事業的行公共事務的行列所以我們提出這個修正也希望"},{"start":4099.366,"end":4123.306,"text":"不但在立法院那在地方議會也可以有年輕的心血投入公共事務得到合理的薪資以外那我來自高雄也受到高雄原民的這些請託對於直轄市議員在山區的直轄市議員的原住民的議員為民服務費也一併的來希望可以做出調整謝謝"},{"start":4127.063,"end":4128.164,"text":"李玉琳委員"},{"start":4142.698,"end":4171.172,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家好在我們立法委員的提案借期是沒有延續的所以在新的會期我們都會重新提案所以沒有割到尾的情形那今天針對於地方民意代表的費用的支付以村里長事務費用的補助我這條例第6條的修文的條例的修正本席也提出了這個建議有鑑於這地方議會公費助理薪資補助"},{"start":4174.215,"end":4186.046,"text":"總額已經超過了24年都沒有做調整心知無法及時的反映現實生活的需要所以提出了地方民意代表費用支付跟我們村里長事務"},{"start":4187.307,"end":4188.208,"text":"本期的提案是要刪除第一項聘用公費助理人"},{"start":4213.231,"end":4215.952,"text":"提供議員聘用助理的彈性。議會議員公費助理在任用資格的"},{"start":4232.521,"end":4261.076,"text":"更能夠因應可能比照公務機關鼓勵禁用身心障礙的人士另外還有提案要刪除原條文的第二項前段的但書取消直轄市的議員縣市議員公費助理每人每月支領金額不得超過新台幣8萬元之上限並賦予議員得以聘用部分時間工作公費助理"},{"start":4261.696,"end":4278.421,"text":"因為議員服務地方的面向是非常的多元又無法聘用部分工時的助理容易造成了工作時間跟聘用時間不明確的這種情形所以增加了用人的彈性方能夠應驗實際上問政及服務民眾的需求"},{"start":4282.962,"end":4308.117,"text":"進於現行的法規面並沒有將這個適用的勞動基準法的規定由議會來編列經費資應之相關的費用項目的名列所以雖然說有民事比照立法院的公費助理的模式來辦理但是就各議會的編列資應之相關費用項目中央主管機關要採用"},{"start":4310.318,"end":4335.047,"text":"現說的解釋限制了加班費跟資錢費跟職業災害補償等等的相互的編列與立法院實際的運作情形並沒有一致所以衍生了各個議會預算編列跟執行的疑義所以為了要落實現行的法例保障地方議會的公費助理勞動權益跟他杜絕一些爭議"},{"start":4337.087,"end":4359.615,"text":"與明定項目及金額以致明確,以致市併價之保障,亦應同上法議。以上的提案再次的懇請所有的同仁大家的支持。謝謝。好,謝謝我們李毓民的提案說明。我們下一位我們王毓民委員的提案說明。"},{"start":4368.11,"end":4368.35,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4386.221,"end":4399.553,"text":"已經24年都沒有修了那我們知道24年的變化其實非常的大包括我們看到基本工資已經從15840條漲到現在的27470已經漲了超過七成了而一般的這個消費者的這個物價指數的漲幅也都有近三成的這樣的一個漲幅"},{"start":4410.323,"end":4438.263,"text":"所以應該是回過頭來檢討這24年都沒有修法的這個條例那我們可以看到這個這次的修法有幾項重點第一個就是在人力的部分那我們看到政院版就是把這個聘用的公費助理直轄市變成至少7人先議員至少3人但是本期提出來的版本是希望給予更大的彈性就是"},{"start":4439.364,"end":4444.892,"text":"直轄市至少6人現市議員助理至少2人讓地方議員有更大彈性去用人另外助理費用部分"},{"start":4454.867,"end":4473.358,"text":"政院版的在直轄市的部分呢他是從原來的24萬提高到30萬但本席認為這樣的幅度還是太小那我提出來的部分是希望可以提高到36萬而在縣市議會的部分也很高興看到政院版是提高到14萬"},{"start":4475.72,"end":4495.18,"text":"這個應該是大家可以共同來支持那另外一個比較重要的是希望未來這樣子的一個補助地方議員的加班費、支錢費跟職災補償費用就是民文化那另外一個是應該要比照軍公教待遇來進行調整那我們希望說今天這樣的一個討論從剛剛多位委員的發言"},{"start":4498.203,"end":4510.971,"text":"大家都有這樣的共識希望這個條例可以修正通過那我們讓地方的議會還有議員他們在執行各項任務的時候是可以得到更多的保障以上謝謝好謝謝我們王立民委員的提案說明那下一位我們請李彥秀委員的提案說明"},{"start":4525.763,"end":4546.095,"text":"早安各位部長各位同仁大家早安今天審議這兩個條例其實我們大家都知道這兩個條例其實過去歷屆其實很多的地方機構包括很多里長其實都到立法院來陳情所以今天終於有機會草野大家都有這個共識要來處理這個法案過去20年到24年其實我們幾乎都"},{"start":4551.038,"end":4578.048,"text":"沒有修正過相關的這兩個條例相關的費用我們勞基法的基本薪資總共調整了17次我們軍公教在過去20年總共也調整6次但是我們地方議會議員的助理費用包括里長相關的費用其實我們幾乎都沒有調整為了讓更多的年輕人包括我們這幾次我們都在談勞基法的修正我們希望相關的勞動條件"},{"start":4579.868,"end":4604.838,"text":"更合乎我們現在要與時俱進所以包括在這一次我的修正條文裡面無論對於地方議會的助理費的調整還有包括接下來加班費資遣費包括相關的職業災害的補償我都認為應該要比照勞基法特別是我們都知道公共事務的投入其實是沒有上下班的"},{"start":4605.578,"end":4625.313,"text":"所以在這一塊我覺得相關的費用我們立法院更應該重視所以在這一次我的修正條文裡面包括用人的彈性包括助理的待遇還有補助費用的總額我都覺得應該讓各地方議會考量之後調整那我們也都知道在里長的部分從全國法規的資料庫裡面把關鍵字里長"},{"start":4629.096,"end":4632.66,"text":"就會有119筆的法規內容扣除掉廢除的法規其實還有7、80筆法規是需要里長配合中央相關的規範規定來推動地方的事務譬如說統計災害等等還有包括社會的安全網包括進行自殺防治通報等業務這都是里長的工作"},{"start":4652.62,"end":4673.934,"text":"所以這一次除了部長提出來的春節的這個慰問金等等我更認為也應該修正比較地方民代補助為民的服務費反映實際的支出然後我覺得這個是比較合乎現在里長的工作以上我希望有機會修正討論之後能夠讓各位同仁支持謝謝"},{"start":4678.066,"end":4686.272,"text":"好,謝謝李恩秀委員的提案說明。下一位我們請徐巧欣委員的提案說明。好,來。"},{"start":4701.243,"end":4717.856,"text":"謝謝主席那我想呢今天非常開心能夠在這裡做這個提案說明因為我自己本身就是出自於市議會那在台北市議會裡面當時我們就我還是市議員的時候大家就"},{"start":4718.796,"end":4742.123,"text":"經常的憤憤不平我覺得為什麼立法院對於這麼不合理的議員的公費助理費遲遲的都沒有修法那當時我在競選的過程當中也承諾所有的議員同仁不管是市議會或是認識的縣議會的其他朋友很多不合理的地方我們就是應該要來面對修法來改變它"},{"start":4747.099,"end":4775.37,"text":"許多委員都提案表達過助理費24年沒有調整過不再贅述那有關於公費助理適用勞基法的相關費用現行條文沒有明列各地方議會編列經費指引項目導致先前發生了內政部跟議會適用的異議以台北市議會為例包含是加班費等等的都沒有辦法執行"},{"start":4776.601,"end":4792.739,"text":"那以台北市議會來說年紀都相當的輕大概平均39.4歲年資5.3年工作可能不超過兩年就離職了代表我們現在的薪資條件對於這些助理來說是留不久的"},{"start":4793.32,"end":4817.668,"text":"那認證品質也沒有辦法提升所以我希望的是說我們在提案版本裡面包含是薪資多少就是總而可以討論之外還希望修正一個主要的點希望可以得到大家的同意就是放寬人數的比例我知道目前放到7個可是我覺得以我過去的經驗其實還是不夠希望可以放到5個到6個"},{"start":4820.39,"end":4839.531,"text":"讓專業的助理能夠取得比較高的薪資再來就是臨時的部分有的時候我們會有一些臨時的助理或者是說臨時需要來的人但是他沒有辦法適用全額的薪資那就沒有辦法聘用那也希望這一部分能夠放寬謝謝"},{"start":4844.377,"end":4849.988,"text":"好謝謝我們徐小新委員的提案說明那下一位我們請蔡奕宜委員的提案說明"},{"start":4862.877,"end":4879.165,"text":"謝謝主席那本席就我所提案的來做提案說明那主要是針對這一個議員那以及村里長那我們這一次行政院有建議那議員的助理來做一個修法"},{"start":4879.645,"end":4894.021,"text":"那這個修法的部分主要是針對他們的聘用助理他們的聘僱關係那以及說他們是否可以投保在這個議會然後讓他們助理有更好的一個保障那之後"},{"start":4895.263,"end":4909.437,"text":"也有包括說所謂助理的人數的限制希望可以來做一個放寬然後這個助理的一個補助費的上限然後買下來做指定提款那事實上我有相對應的提案那"},{"start":4910.538,"end":4933.335,"text":"我還是要強調事實上我們每次在討論這一個議員的一個助理的一個補助上限的時候我們都可以看出直轄市跟非直轄市非常大的一個落差那為什麼同樣是在做地方的服務就比如說像我們在在我的選區的助理他在布袋一族在經營地方"},{"start":4933.815,"end":4951.921,"text":"然後再服務鄉親跟隔壁的新營鹽水事實上就是一個巴展西之閣但是他們的助理的一個聘用的人數卻是差一倍包括本身議員的薪水也是差了一倍那我們實在是不懂那為什麼會有這樣的一個落差"},{"start":4952.461,"end":4973.542,"text":"那這樣是不是凸顯了城鄉的一個不公平而且事實上如果我剛剛所舉例的根本是同樣的一個生活圈在同樣的生活圈的議員卻有截然不同的一個待遇這個是一個我覺得很不公平的地方那也希望可以透過今天的討論大家來思考這件事第二個"},{"start":4974.182,"end":4991.45,"text":"我要去跟請內政部這邊可以去思考像我們立委我們的助理我們聘請的費用事實上都超出了依法可以給我們的一個預算所以都已經超出了但是超出的一個部分人數超出我們卻沒有辦法"},{"start":4994.552,"end":5014.412,"text":"讓這些助理可以同樣投保在國會或者議員可以投保在議會事實上這又凸顯一個問題就是說我們還要另外再去用一個投保單位讓助理又有不一樣的一個待遇那我的具體建議還是希望說能夠讓我們的所聘用的助理一樣投保在國會或議會"},{"start":5016.454,"end":5029.161,"text":"如果中間需要有去做一個短叉要去補的部分我們也願意補只是我們希望可以讓助理都有平等的一個待遇不管是議會跟國會我覺得都有這樣的狀況好謝謝"},{"start":5046.023,"end":5070.01,"text":"謝謝主席首先還是要感謝主席借助把這個地方民意代表費用及支給及村里長的這個事務補助會快入排審那也特別感謝內政部我們的林部長因為從基層上來對這個事情得重視不過有幾個面向可能要特別再度提醒一下有時候我們要改可能就要改得徹底一點我當然有相關提案"},{"start":5070.59,"end":5090.166,"text":"我自己的提案裡面我從村里長事務會從一般縣市議員之下縣市議員包含鄉鎮市民代表的衛民服務會幾個面向都來做相關的討論我覺得這樣似乎比較周全一些我自己從基層的民代市民代表上來"},{"start":5092.248,"end":5112.381,"text":"部長還是說我們各位同仁能不能理解為什麼中央的民代我們可以領薪資然後可以領研究會然後還有衛民服務會那地方的議員地方代表基本上他們只有研究會然後他們沒有薪資然後他們是開會的時候領取出席會"},{"start":5113.55,"end":5130.401,"text":"一個臺灣一個民意代表的制度從中央到地方基本上通通不一樣這個是要一國兩制那如果今天我們願意來面對這個事情應該就要快速的來做相關的一些調整跟因應這是其一其二"},{"start":5131.521,"end":5158.196,"text":"這還是要特別感謝阿扁前總統所以在2000年的時候也曾經有修正明代資金條例當時的代表里長我記得我當代表的時候一個月的研究會是194702000年的時候修正完之後才提高變成49470那是代表會的代表的研究會一直到現在是因為有3%4%的逐年的做這樣調整才可以達到6萬多塊"},{"start":5160.239,"end":5186.219,"text":"相對的一般縣市的議員也是如此那我是要讓大家去思考一件事情為什麼立法委員就是中央的民意代表直轄縣市一般縣市的議員就是地方的民意代表包含鄉鎮市民意代表他也就是地方民意代表為什麼在秦嶺的科目項目裡面會這麼大的窘然不同所以我還是希望說等一下在討論過程裡面"},{"start":5187.18,"end":5205.451,"text":"我當然有在相關的這些提案然後也希望透過修正動議可以更加的聚集民意擴大的來把這事情好好的討論好讓大家可以共同來面對這事情把台灣的制度定好不要連監督機關的相關的領取的費用"},{"start":5205.891,"end":5224.73,"text":"都會這麼樣的不一樣這麼樣的多次這對台灣整體的這個政治的發展而言不是一件好事再多謝謝部長也謝謝主席來排審這個案子謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝我們劉建國委員的提案說明那下一位我們請黃建斌委員提案說明"},{"start":5233.464,"end":5249.712,"text":"謝謝主席,感謝主席,我想在場很多我們的前輩都是從基層去生的,有些從議員,有些是從鄉民代表那像本席其實還有擔任過代理的村幹事,今天一路從基層去看了這麼多問題"},{"start":5252.393,"end":5252.433,"text":"主席"},{"start":5272.114,"end":5272.194,"text":"主席"},{"start":5288.487,"end":5307.637,"text":"所以我們一定要我本期會提的樣子是希望能夠藉由這一次的修法讓我們的基層服務能夠更加的安心買單給他們或一個高利貸這是這次提案最主要的原因再一次的也希望我們草原能夠共通來為這件事來努力讓這件事能夠順利通過謝謝主席好謝謝我們黃建斌委員提案說明那下一位我們請曾振銓委員提案說明"},{"start":5322.958,"end":5349.932,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別安排了地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例的修正的議程那我想說鑒於議員服務形態所以時代改變已經有很大的不一樣那助理費用也已經超過18年沒有調整所以本期這邊的提案其實有三個重點第一個是取消聘用公費助理上限規定並調整並調整下限具體江子牙市議會的"},{"start":5352.473,"end":5365.741,"text":"議員助理配用公費助理從6到8人調整成4人以上那縣市議員的公費助理從2到4人調整為2人以上可使議員的用人更有彈性那麼第二個在現行規定當中公費助理補助費用總額"},{"start":5366.981,"end":5395.223,"text":"本席這邊是主張上調50%最主要是因為從民國95年修正通過之後已經有超過18年沒有調整那當時的基本工資只有14880那麼現在已經到27470漲幅有超將近85%但是公費助理的費用顯然其實都沒有真的調漲不符所需所以希望說能夠調漲那並希望能夠額外編列加班費勞工保險費全民健保"},{"start":5396.483,"end":5421.634,"text":"提供財務費及僱主負擔提供而勞工退休金那麼第三個部分就是實務上有許多志工助理都用部分工時的方式來協助議員在參與各項的活動那現行規定當中並沒有開放這類部分工時的助理所以大部分都是用義工的方式或者是議員自行補貼所以本期這邊參照勞動部僱用部分工作勞工應注意事項有關部分工時的那個定義希望能夠開放議員"},{"start":5423.635,"end":5424.836,"text":"提出的版本的時候如果說對於"},{"start":5449.369,"end":5476.608,"text":"主理補助費用總額更高的部分那並規定能夠配合公務人員加薪的調整部分那本席也表示支持但是希望政院版他只有取消助理人數上限沒有開放部分公司和兼職助理的部分但本席希望這個部分能夠採用本席的版本那麼讓行政院能加幅度來修正通過以上感謝謝謝好謝謝我們張正前委員的提案聲明"},{"start":5480.765,"end":5481.606,"text":"主席"},{"start":5499.264,"end":5517.394,"text":"各位委員、女士先生、各位刑警首先對於各位委員就內政業務的推動還有關注指導表達有重感謝之意那今天各位委員會審查楊瓊英委員等人、黃婕委員等人吳佩儀委員等人、鄭天才委員等人、羅志強委員等人"},{"start":5518.291,"end":5543.75,"text":"羅敏玲委員等人李玉玲委員等人吳思耀委員等人陳超明委員等人李博毅委員等人黃建豪委員等人徐巧欣委員等人莊瑞雄委員等人高金樹梅委員等人林思銘委員等人王美惠委員等人盧憲英委員等人蔡毅委員等人范雲委員等人徐珍委員等人"},{"start":5544.391,"end":5550.423,"text":"黃秀芳委員等人、鍾嘉斌委員等人、陳穎委員等人、武力華委員等人"},{"start":5551.821,"end":5575.963,"text":"陳素岳委員等人、徐欣寅委員等人、洪森翰委員等人、李燕秀委員等人、吳清明委員等人、黃建斌委員等人、劉建國委員等人、鄭正琴委員等人、陳培宇委員等人、王育敏委員等人所提地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5576.985,"end":5589.018,"text":"總計有37案．本部應邀列席報告及備詢。在這邊請就相關的一個內容進行口頭的一個報告由於行政院府於113年5月2日將本條例修法草案"},{"start":5592.442,"end":5614.289,"text":"含重大院審議,雖未及由貴人會排入本次會議審查,不過考量本次修法審查是攸關民意代表及村里長支給相關費用的政策方向。研究各委員所提的提案,還有行政院的提案綜合說明如下,敬請各位委員參考指教。"},{"start":5615.885,"end":5634.276,"text":"第一是有關於修正本條例第6條有關議員聘用助理制度的部分有關調高議員助理補助費總額之上限考量本條例從民國89年公布實施至今基本工資還有民生物價均有一定的一個調整跟漲幅經審酌地方政府議會"},{"start":5638.118,"end":5651.766,"text":"的修法建議還有地方財政負擔能力之後,行政院版的草案修正直下市議員助力補助費總額的上限每人每月至24萬元調至30萬元而縣市議員部分則從8萬元調至14萬元並增訂該總額隨全國公務人員各種家計年度通案調整的機制"},{"start":5663.308,"end":5692.928,"text":"那多數委員的提案修正方向與行政院版是一致的,僅在調整金額部分有所不同,所以建議委員能夠支持行政院版的方案。第二,為立議員吸納人才,部分委員版建議刪除直轄市議員助理每人每月支給支領金額8萬元以上之規定。行政院版的修正方向也相同,有關於此點本部競表同意,競表支持。"},{"start":5694.248,"end":5719.48,"text":"第3又為增加議員用能彈性﹐部分委員板及行政院板均刪除議員聘用助理人數之上限規定﹐並維持定有聘用助理最低人數﹐又配合助理補助費總而調高﹐行政院板著真直轄市議員聘用助理人數下限為7人﹐縣市議員聘用人數下限為3人﹐以兼顧議員問證品質與服務的需要"},{"start":5723.442,"end":5747.508,"text":"第4,各委員提案版本也關心增訂補助議員之應助理加班費、支檢費等費用,這一部分也跟行政院版的方向一致,競表贊同。行政院版已經參考立法院現行補助方式,修正改以助理補助費總額外加20%為上限,並擴大之應範圍至助理加班費。"},{"start":5748.408,"end":5776.995,"text":"支遣費等依法令應由雇主負擔的費用．以強化保障助理勞動權益第5行政院板及部分委員板均徵定議會應就各議員支領助理補助費總額及分配情形助理聘用關係及補助支應助理加班費等情形建立內部控制制度以利從制度面減少議員詐領相關費用的可能"},{"start":5779.019,"end":5781.07,"text":"修正本條例第5條的部分"},{"start":5782.133,"end":5808.422,"text":"副表有關條高地方民意代表為民服務費部分那鑒於地方民意代表為民服務費支應的範圍包括服務處的租金、有料費、水電費、文具費、紅白鐵、吉難、慰問金等等不過這個條例從民國89年實施至今民生物價已經有相當的一個漲幅並考量不同層級地方民意代表為民服務之實務及兼顧地方財政的負擔"},{"start":5809.883,"end":5818.974,"text":"行政院版修正直轄市議員為民服務費每人每月至2萬元提高為4萬元縣市議員至9千元調至2萬元鄉鎮市民代表從3千元調至5千元"},{"start":5826.903,"end":5839.571,"text":"部分委員提案條高地方民意代表為民服務費修正的方向與行政院版一致第三修正第7條有關發給村里長春節慰勞金部分"},{"start":5840.802,"end":5865.86,"text":"由於村里長全年在第一線執行各級政府交辦的任務以及為民服務的辛勞相較於政府各類人員有發給年終獎金或者是春節慰勞金各行業亦多有發給年終獎金之力僅村里長沒有相關的給予所以行政院版徵定發給村里長春節慰勞金進而以5萬元乘以1.5個月來計算"},{"start":5867.941,"end":5883.44,"text":"各委員的提案修正方向同於行政院版競表之詞不過僅在金額部分有不同的計算基準建請審慎衡量考量原住民議員及原住民族地區村里長服務轄區範圍較大"},{"start":5885.342,"end":5897.443,"text":"同時交通不便還有所服務的原住民的民眾散居等問題行政院本提案修正原住民議員為民服務費每月再加10%"},{"start":5900.585,"end":5919.103,"text":"並原住民族地區之村里長事務補助費每月再加10%,以兼顧原住民地區區域的特殊性。部分委員也提案考量原住民議員原住民族地區村里長服務特性之需要,方向與行政頁板一致。"},{"start":5920.546,"end":5943.621,"text":"最後本次審查提案的一個版本部分委員版本與行政院版本方向一致僅具體方式不同本部已在書面報告中彙整說明敬請委員指教並可以支持行政院版的提案並考量本條例規定之地方民意代表及村里長支給相關費用屬於補助性質"},{"start":5944.602,"end":5965.332,"text":"部分委員有提案針對議員助理地方民意代表及村里長新增各項支給項目建請橫著各項目的合理性及必要性並考量地方政府財政負擔能力本部也已經依各提案要旨在書面報告中提出參考意見供與委員參酌以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":5967.213,"end":5976.543,"text":"好謝謝林佑昌部長的報告現在我們其他單位的報告請我們委員叫自省參議員並刊登公報"},{"start":5979.411,"end":6005.913,"text":"現在我們進行審打委員執行前原內做以下極點宣告本會委員發言時間4分鐘必要延長2分鐘非本會委員發言4分鐘上午10點30分鐘截止發言登記因為今天法案處理本會會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":6007.393,"end":6014.196,"text":"沒意見,那我們現在就進行審打登記第一位蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":6024.517,"end":6051.609,"text":"好 謝謝主席在我開始質詢之前我覺得還是不吐不快啦那主席我其實非常的感謝今天主席排了這個全國都關注的議題因為不管是地方民意代表或者是村里長大家都紛紛的表示時至今日這個村里長的費用然後這個事務補助費以及我們地方民代的助理費用都應該要被討論了"},{"start":6053.51,"end":6059.713,"text":"那今天呢也是破紀錄啦我從來進到立法院從來沒有看過齁光是提案說明已經提案說明了一個小時有這麼多個版本不分草野大家都提案結果呢上個禮拜五發生什麼事明明吳祁鳴召委就已經把案子都已經排好了表示這個禮拜今天要審了但上個禮拜五"},{"start":6077.081,"end":6096.716,"text":"國民黨的副坤祺召委跟民眾黨黃國昌召委卻特別把幾案抽出來說他們禁負惡毒 戳破民進黨的假面具我覺得很奇怪請問是要戳破什麼假面具啊那今天這麼多的國民黨委員甚至民眾黨的委員也在這裡提出自己的版本所以"},{"start":6097.056,"end":6105.822,"text":"他們的版本是比較寫得不夠好不夠清楚嗎?所以沒有被傅坤祺總召黃國昌選中嗎?阿不然的話為什麼只有那幾個版本去?阿那我又看啦所以難道是國民黨選進去進覆二讀的版本代表著國民黨全體的意見嗎?民眾黨選進去的代表民眾黨的意見嗎?好那如果是的話那"},{"start":6122.172,"end":6143.355,"text":"顯然民眾黨不支持村里長事務費調高喔因為民眾黨的版本沒有寫到村里長喔那所以國民黨不支持原住民地區的村里長事務費可以加給喔他不支持像高金委員這樣的提案說這個原住民地區事務繁忙可以加給喔因為國民黨的金富奧德的版本沒有原住民喔"},{"start":6145.361,"end":6160.452,"text":"齁,所以呢,那我們今天討論完的版本,如果我們今天因為草野有高度的共識希望今天要能夠審理,如果我們今天能夠出去的版本,那這個版本共識版出去以後,那上一次他們在禮拜五禁覆二讀的版本算不算數?這整個都亂得透了嘛!"},{"start":6163.334,"end":6175.106,"text":"所以這根本才是真正的齊心可異在民進黨的召委已經排好法案要審查的時候特別抽出幾個版本說所謂的進夫惡毒既不尊重立法院的委員會中心主義而且也把自己同黨委員的提案棄如必喜我覺得這真的是需要被譴責啦不然以後立法院不用討論了嘛"},{"start":6186.457,"end":6212.673,"text":"大家所有的事情都進入二讀就好了啊那委員會開什麼開所以今天在這裡我說不吐不快就是這樣這段談話我希望要能夠列入會議記錄啊好那講到這裡齁我們還是要請林侯昌部長我還是有幾個問題喔雖然等一下我們會有條文審查主條可以討論但今天我還是請一下部長謝謝那我們巧慧委員要求列入會議記錄齁那官報記錄"},{"start":6215.494,"end":6232.701,"text":"稍後一定會阻止啦,譴責啦好,謝謝部長,部長您也是擔任過地方首長這個非常多的公職相信您非常理解我們的村里長其實是在協助這個市政的相關議題上面非常重要的幫手對吧對"},{"start":6233.881,"end":6259.356,"text":"所以部長您也非常努力的沒有懈怠的提出了院板但是很可惜因為吳啟明教委太努力了這麼提早排所以院板也好還有我自己的版本也好今天都還沒有辦法到院會不過部長您剛剛報告的院板院板應該就是行政院的態度而且已經送出來了對嗎是沒有錯在上個禮拜行政院會已經通過並且已經送過來立法院"},{"start":6259.956,"end":6275.581,"text":"所以我想我們今天還是可以把院板的這個意見即便他沒有辦法進到委員會來一起拼案但我們還是可以按照院板的基礎也一起來討論那這個里長的部分說起來我這幾年真的是很替他們辛苦"},{"start":6276.681,"end":6277.622,"text":"所以部長你覺得我們今天的事務費5萬元這個基礎是足夠了嗎?"},{"start":6303.661,"end":6318.821,"text":"為什麼我們這個沒有動但是我們加了春節慰問金不然可以再說明清楚一點院方的想法嗎是我們在這一次的這個支給條例的一個修正我跟大家報告其實這個不是現在才開始討論"},{"start":6319.882,"end":6344.332,"text":"其實行政院在109年的時候曾經5月27日曾經也抱怨討論過這個事情不過因為還有相關的這些議題需要進一步凝聚共識所以那個時候並沒有正式提出來那我上任之後其實在112年的3月份的時候我們其實在內政部內部就已經啟動相關的一個法案的原議"},{"start":6345.272,"end":6359.951,"text":"最重要的就是剛剛委員特別提到的我們這一次在處理一些薪資那個事務補助費的部分它是屬於工作事務費的一個性質平常是沒有薪水的對 它是沒有薪水的"},{"start":6360.111,"end":6379.543,"text":"但是反過來里長也可以去外面兼職 是的 對不對 這就是他跟其他的公務員員根本上的差別 對不對我覺得這點性質大家一定要理清楚後面到底里長應該要哪一些慰問補助等等我們一定要搞清楚里長工作的性質後面才有辦法討論 是的"},{"start":6381.584,"end":6405.94,"text":"其實部長你這樣的態度其實也很清楚就是我們應該要給他更多的協助資源的協助讓他把事情做好那這個部分我也贊同不過我也另外贊成因為我偏差所有的狀況不管是公教人員也好其他的也好其實確實大部分的公立人員等等公教人員他的這個薪資也好或其他費用也好是確實會隨著物價來做波動"},{"start":6408.482,"end":6437.015,"text":"所以我其實也是支持如果是村里長的事務補助費可以隨著物價調升我認為這是可以支持的部分那我們等一下在逐條的時候是不是就這部分可以請院內政部這邊再提出多一點您的看法各位報告我想這部分是可以來討論不過你也了解其實在地方村里的問題在這樣他村里有大有小是啦所以這個五萬塊說實在是對的大的理真的是不夠用"},{"start":6437.455,"end":6461.34,"text":"所以這部分的確是值得來進一步討論所以我等一下我是希望能夠有閒熟地方事務的內政部的長官們等一下真的是我們就實際的狀況更多討論好那因為今天大家很多委員要問我不再用時間但我表示一件事情本席也是非常支持地方民代的助理費地方民代的助理費要有所調整"},{"start":6462.02,"end":6462.14,"text":"是 贊成好 謝謝"},{"start":6490.943,"end":6491.704,"text":"主席,有請內政部長"},{"start":6514.834,"end":6543.914,"text":"部長好,想要請教一下近期警政署有報出我們第一線的警察級兄弟使用防彈衣抗奧吐版存在有查資對於第一線執行人員人身安全造成很嚴重的威脅目前警政署是說一切合法想要請教一下部長在驗收新防彈衣的過程中內政部具體是如何進行的"},{"start":6545.455,"end":6568.353,"text":"為何這樣的二值的防彈衣可以驗收通過還有請教部長對於此事的防彈衣的查詢有進行全面調查還有調查的結果是什麼好謝謝委員的詢問不過這個驗收的部分這次警政署在驗收我是不是請警政署來做說明好謝謝"},{"start":6572.903,"end":6595.617,"text":"委員好 召委好 部長好那針對委員剛剛的提問那我們這一今年那個112年度的備薪式防災那是在公開招標還有最低標的方式辦那當時有兩家廠商投標那分別是公園公司還有萬寶城公司來投標"},{"start":6597.038,"end":6613.399,"text":"在當時審標的時候他資格都是符合的我們當時照標規定是要兩家廠商投標的時候要請廠商提供量益那都經過我們一個送交要到國內外檢測機構"},{"start":6615.301,"end":6618.684,"text":"我現在問的是說我們是不是說招標的問題現在就是說我們的驗收如何驗收有這個傻吃的這個我們防彈衣如何調查的結果是什麼"},{"start":6631.232,"end":6633.774,"text":"如果你說那個招標的廠商的話所以請問一下現在你們的進度或者是說我們要怎麼樣去去抽換啊什麼時候還成還有你說廠商都是合法的但是照你們的報告回應裡面是這個廠商他是列入黑名單"},{"start":6651.73,"end":6655.554,"text":"已經禁止三年招標了但是呢現在你還是一樣讓這個廠商就是通過招標才又沒有要去改進還有那個制度是如何這樣子的話就是這幾年你們這其他的廠商都不合法"},{"start":6670.991,"end":6676.215,"text":"這個是禁止三年的他再回來招標你們又給他去標這樣子的話你覺得我們第一線的警察這樣的安全如何把關這個才是我們關心的"},{"start":6687.17,"end":6687.39,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6703.208,"end":6722.782,"text":"的產品我們進行國內外的檢測那國內市檢測所以那麼那麼那麼的這個防單一不是每件每件去抽查是就是樣本來抽查這樣子的話是先變成我們警察穿到就是如果是被被有案件的話這個警察就是自認倒楣了"},{"start":6723.923,"end":6745.956,"text":"所以不是這樣子的驗收吧我們驗收這個是安全的話我們希望就是要怎麼樣去驗收是說全部驗收不是只有樣本驗收這樣子的話太離譜了一般我們要去驗收的話連一支筆都要馬上就算足每一支筆我們就去標案是這樣但是你們驗收就是說樣本驗收這樣子太離譜了"},{"start":6748.866,"end":6765.482,"text":"報告委員,我們驗收是先點數量。我們確定數量全部都到齊之後,我們才會按照我們契約去抽取我們要檢測的數量。那因為6000多件全部要檢測,其實那個簽証到的成本有後續的驗收的成本。"},{"start":6766.683,"end":6778.59,"text":"我覺得我就沒辦法如果是身為一個警察這樣子的驗收的話我覺得沒辦法所以你們我問的就是說你們的驗收但是你回答是這樣子你的調查的結果還有抽抽查現在我們是有這樣子的雜誌品你們要怎麼樣去做調查怎麼樣去後面要來去抽換的"},{"start":6789.876,"end":6802.515,"text":"委員跟你報告因為依據相關的公共採購的一個程序他驗收有一定的一個程序他也一定驗收的這個內容也一定就是照契約這是第一點第二個是這個"},{"start":6804.858,"end":6804.878,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":6827.99,"end":6853.71,"text":"但他有瑕疵品的話我們就依契約來要求更換現在大家就是發現有這樣子的問題如果是真正我們的警察穿出來就背這個重槍的話這樣是誰負責這個是人命是當然所以我們發現瑕疵品的話一定依契約要求他立即把它做更換對還有說這個廠商已經是禁止"},{"start":6854.471,"end":6854.671,"text":"委員會議事日程"},{"start":6884.432,"end":6884.497,"text":"議事日程。"},{"start":6885.245,"end":6900.155,"text":"小的評述就是依據我們第40條第二項的規定前項就是說居住水準但是中央每4年都要修正但我們現在看到的就從101年到現在成為修正還有在107年的時候也曾經就是修訂原收權但是其中就是從12年內政部都沒有修正這個基本"},{"start":6914.545,"end":6921.547,"text":"基本的居住水準我想這一部分內政部其實都在滾 國土署其實都在滾動的一個檢討我上禮之後其實也請國土署針對這一部分做相關的一個研議那你剛剛提到的"},{"start":6944.173,"end":6965.207,"text":"這個基本的居住水準其實它是要依整個國家跟社會發展的一個狀態來做一些調整沒錯,但是就是發展到現在我們都沒有去修正國家的發展就是部長說的國家的發展還有居住的空間要去改變但是12年了沒有去改變所以變成說這樣子的居住水準"},{"start":6966.089,"end":6969.912,"text":"每次問都是研議再準備再檢討這樣子的話效果是什麼因為這個就必須要慎重慎重12年都沒有去改變"},{"start":6982.783,"end":7012.243,"text":"所以慎重到什麼時候?這個至少我上任之後我已經交代他們要做相關的一個修正所以現在已經快要卸任了所以到現在上任的時候交到是現在快要卸任不過委員我跟你報告這個東西你要調不是那麼簡單因為他簽一法動權生而且這個會影響到很多民眾的權益那另外在做相關的一個都市計畫的一個規劃跟設計的時候也都一定會受到影響所以這一部分為什麼他們要特別慎重的原因在這邊"},{"start":7012.563,"end":7041.361,"text":"是,但是慎重也要去調整啦希望真正的是照顧到我們的居民不是說以前的標準跟水準這樣就可以了這樣的話我們真的是部長剛才也有講嘛是不是我們要那麼多年了已經要改變但是到現在還沒有改變所以希望這個部分要你卸任之前是不是說可以再去改變真正的去照顧到我們的居民"},{"start":7041.781,"end":7067.257,"text":"不用用我要卸任的這來畫一條線這個是國土署他們本來都在做相關的研議那這會一定也要進步我想這部分大家都有共識沒錯 但是12年了不是說只要說你上任還是卸任但是你說你在上任的時候就要求但是現在你沒有追蹤也沒有結果我們是有追蹤也有進度好 這樣進度結果在哪裡可以"},{"start":7067.977,"end":7094.748,"text":"沒有問題,我要請國土署再給委員說明因為很多縣市裡面有很多都沒有去做這個就是那個家屋的改善如果是有這樣子的標準認定的話是否就是我們我們下一頁再看一下這個你看很多縣市都沒有去做這樣子的所以希望就是要給我一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":7096.412,"end":7098.474,"text":"好謝謝我們麥政委員好謝謝麥政委員的執行謝謝下一位張宏立委員張宏立委員執行完我們就休息5分鐘"},{"start":7132.998,"end":7133.659,"text":"不好意思請部長請部長好謝謝"},{"start":7141.008,"end":7162.3,"text":"來部長其實我們今天討論的就是議員跟村里長的這個啦齁那其實上個禮拜國民黨在院會裡面啦把他抽出了幾案出來啦齁可是我仔細看了一下我不知道部長你有沒有注意到他抽出了幾案裡面其實並沒有很全盤的去處理這個問題欸是這樣如果照這樣子處理的話"},{"start":7167.142,"end":7192.189,"text":"到時候施行你們會不會有問題?跟委員報告我們在討論思考這件事情的時候我們是把整個的一個支給的制度全部做了一個完整的一個討論跟研究所以在新任版的部分大家可以看到就是有包括這個助理的補助費那另外還有他的一個加班費還有他的資遣費"},{"start":7193.189,"end":7219.822,"text":"甚至包括為民服務費還有村里長的年終慰勞金甚至也包括原住民的部分也考慮了進來所以行政院版是一個比較完整全面的一個方案甚至剛剛有幾位委員臨時有提到包括地方的這個鄉鎮市代表的部分我們也一定做了修正所以行政院版是一個比較完整配套的一個方案"},{"start":7221.076,"end":7243.138,"text":"對啦,行政院版是面面俱到啦但我看他們抽出來版本裡面有好幾個項目都沒有處理到是這樣子可能會掛一漏萬對,已經掛一漏萬了我們看到抽出來版本就已經掛一漏萬了所以部長你這樣講就很明確啦但很多人啦,其實這個村里長跟議員的這個"},{"start":7245.48,"end":7267.99,"text":"已經討論許久了當外界有的人會覺得說這好像是加薪好像是什麼那其實我們檢視裡面現市議員我說的不是直轄市議員現市議員其實你看這個金額如果說以現在的物價水準來講確實是有所不足這我們真的也是必須要檢討的"},{"start":7269.951,"end":7290,"text":"所以部長你也認為就是說行政院版跟還有30幾個我覺得不只30幾個還有很多的委員的版本其實都在陸續提出來中所以今天如果大家好好的討論討論出一個完整的版本好的版本"},{"start":7290.62,"end":7293.961,"text":"部長支持還是不支持?我必須要在這邊就是說部長我們如果解決了這一個問題之後"},{"start":7307.881,"end":7321.086,"text":"解決了這個問題之後那部長我一直其實也在這邊跟大家討論過很久了這一個行政區劃法是不是未來或什麼應該我們要去檢討了你覺得勒"},{"start":7325.579,"end":7344.611,"text":"當然行政區的話也討論已久他有好多的層次當然是在這個縣市的層次那另外委員如果提到在村里的行政區也的確有這個狀況不過這一部分都是地方政府他去考量那目前的狀況的確有的理很大"},{"start":7345.351,"end":7361.902,"text":"李可能到一兩萬人兩萬人都有那有的李很小可能都一千人以下所以大小其實差異蠻大的這一部分的確是地方政府應該來做一些行政區村里行政區上面的一個劃分的一個調整讓他更為合理"},{"start":7362.642,"end":7389.732,"text":"就舉我的選區來好了啦板橋啦最大的里阿跟最小的里阿人數差了12倍是戶數差了17倍是阿其實這個很難齁那里長的事務費還是一樣是一樣阿對不對所以其實我說的這個行政區的話我覺得村里長也要檢討但這是地方政府的權責但我一直覺得說我們配合"},{"start":7391.112,"end":7414.44,"text":"國土區劃法還有這個很多的生活圈也已經都改變了我覺得其實是要到一個檢討的程度了我不知道部長你的看法如何我想這個委員剛剛提的這個方向是很正確的方向正確的但我也知道這不可能今天說明天就馬上做這個牽扯太廣這個行政院也在做相關的一個討論"},{"start":7415.502,"end":7426.873,"text":"對 我也知道 所以我就覺得說 既然這個解決問題應該整個配套 這樣整個臺灣未來的發展才會比較好啦 對不對部長 你認為贊成 委員剛剛講的是正確的好 那我們就"},{"start":7431.998,"end":7444.303,"text":"該努力的就努力啦就不要讓他中斷就繼續做啦好不好另外委員這個也跟你補充一下因為剛剛之前也有幾位委員可能有提到在關心這個經費的一個問題我在這邊也稍微這個補充報告一下"},{"start":7448.765,"end":7466.778,"text":"實際上我們109年到113年我們中央對於直轄市跟縣市政府的一般性的補助款還有中央的統籌分配稅款其實增加很多在109年度的時候全國各縣市中央補助的一般性的補助款是1762億"},{"start":7469.5,"end":7496.197,"text":"那到了113年的時候已經來到了2303億那如果再加計中央的統籌分配稅款的話在109年是4709億到了113年是6346億所以簡單來講中央對地方政府的補助在這幾年其實增加的幅度很高那以委員的這個新北市為例的話"},{"start":7499.159,"end":7522.307,"text":"這個109年中央跟一般的補助款呢在新北市是補了404億那其中一般性的補助款是67億那到了113年的時候合計是到了570億那一般性的補助款也有102億所以他簡單來講就是說這個增加的一個幅度很高那這一次"},{"start":7523.087,"end":7546.888,"text":"我們進行相關的一個修法那所增加的經費其實地方政府基本上都有能力可以來因應那至於有極少部分的縣市他可能需要中央來補助那這部分會由院裡面然後還有包括我們的族種還有人種等等來進行相關的一個後續的一個研議來處理"},{"start":7548.448,"end":7573.816,"text":"部長你說的沒有錯,但還有一個,這幾年前瞻計畫補助地方,地方基礎建設他也省了很多錢,這個也要算下去了,這個光新北我也要算千億了,對不對?這是一個,另外,房地合一稅未來要處理,這些都是地方稅,所以地方的財源其實也會增加很多啊。是,這幾年是增加的。"},{"start":7574.296,"end":7584.526,"text":"對阿一定是增加的啦所以我覺得這個經費的問題我覺得還是要照規定來處理啦對不對是好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝張皇祿委員的發言謝謝好部長好先來休息5分鐘"},{"start":8078.049,"end":8084.575,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會先來我們請完美會委員好主席好謝謝主席你好請我們正次好謝謝委員好老闆正次今天我們就是要討論"},{"start":8104.281,"end":8106.222,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議第11屆第1會期內政委員會議第1會期內政委員會議"},{"start":8130.615,"end":8139.963,"text":"我們要修法和責全．所以要大家帶一棟都可以在我們內政委員會來討論．不用在上禮拜五來抽出來立託．"},{"start":8148.85,"end":8155.174,"text":"我相信他們自己的委員也有很多意見所以今天我們也感謝我們的教委可以來拜日這個議程裡面所以剛才我說的就是說"},{"start":8167.824,"end":8174.31,"text":"在這規定當中,我們常常都說李聰因為他又沒辦法變,他是變事務費：所以那時候,我也感謝蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":8190.146,"end":8195.909,"text":"本議席都要聽大家所討論的這個事務費．第181年來討論以後．第182年有4萬5提高及5萬．在這個過程當中本縣也有說到說．我們是不是要以春節過年的獎金來看風．"},{"start":8217.259,"end":8223.564,"text":"但在這個過程當中,因為我們沒有得到共識：所以在這會期,這屆好家寨本市又繼續發表有條,所以可以來參與這個問題。在這個過程當中,市長,本市要來問你,你當中有什麼困難,還是可以如何處理的,麻煩你再說明一下。"},{"start":8248.587,"end":8268.107,"text":"報告委員我想委員關心我們地方民意代表跟村里長的相關的這個補助我想這個特別感謝那這個議題啊這個補助條例的修法我想草委都有共識了那其實這個議題早在很早就已經談了也不是說今天才在談"},{"start":8269.457,"end":8274.818,"text":"那據我所瞭解在108年開始在討論的時候那109 111到113再加上我來內政部以後那我參加過兩次的這個這個議長副議長的聯議會那幾乎所有案都有提出來在討論這個議題那這一次我們"},{"start":8289.172,"end":8289.612,"text":"委員的意見那針對這一個村里長的"},{"start":8304.608,"end":8330.025,"text":"這一個事務補助費的部分那我們這一次也考量到這個村里長也很辛苦那再加上說現在各行各業其實也都有所謂的年終獎金或者是慰問金這一個這個發給了那只有我們村里長沒有那這一次我們就把它放進去就用事務補助費的五萬塊做基準那把它調也跟一般一樣加發這個1.5個月的村賊慰問金"},{"start":8332.947,"end":8344.531,"text":"好 謝謝感謝我們政治的說明在這本席還要跟你談到的就是說我們本身做議員做立委怎麼辛苦都沒關係因為覺得我們這是發起做立委思維但畢竟我們議員的助理我們說實在的也不能讓他們超時也不能讓他們覺得說做到沒命沒力"},{"start":8361.32,"end":8371.145,"text":"所以這種的都違法的,所以是如何提高他們的助理的費用及人數,因為這裏面,因為有很多我們的助理,都是長久以來"},{"start":8379.028,"end":8381.749,"text":"都要服務也好,要做什麼也好,有時候就要輪,啊你會不會來,你會補過來,會補你可以上班學完,所以我們也怕他說做了超時不應該,所以在這個規定當中,這個座禮會會提供像第一我的第2期,"},{"start":8403.564,"end":8410.007,"text":"本來是8萬塊,提高到14萬,我們的合同24萬,提高到30萬,我們的事務費,我們的合同是有4萬提高到6萬,2萬提高到4萬,"},{"start":8423.171,"end":8425.974,"text":"像我自己是九千拿到兩萬塊在這個過程當中我覺得是不足的你認為這個事務費要如何調整可以符合現在的時機及環境及物價的契機來"},{"start":8446.886,"end":8453.64,"text":"委員這我跟您報告這一次當然修法主要也是考量到這個要建前議員的助理的聘用制度"},{"start":8454.782,"end":8477.101,"text":"當然助理都很辛苦那跟這個我們村里長也都是一樣的所以我們這一次才會做這樣的一個修法那另外一個就是我們要保障助理的這個勞動權益那所以我們做了一些剛剛委員特別提到了這個提高這些加班費或者是他的這個助理費"},{"start":8478.018,"end":8486.012,"text":"那我們提的驗版這個額度大概我們都有參酌一些因素一些面向來做調整那當然委員所提的說"},{"start":8486.772,"end":8496.835,"text":"我們院板的這個調整的幅度到底是不是這個最恰當的當然這個大家可以來討論這樣就是重點就是說我們今天派這個委員會來討論議員的助理費及里長的薪金的費用是非常重要所以大家都是坐下來談以現在的環境累積多少"},{"start":8517.442,"end":8523.506,"text":"他釋合當然是有的是一定會做不夠,但又做不夠的當中,我們要怎麼調和現在的環境?因為本市就是覺得說,問題我相信今天所說的我們的董事、董事,都是來自"},{"start":8540.657,"end":8544.058,"text":"看見地方的狀況．臺灣才會去修這個案．因為我們知道每一次的法案的立法．若沒有過的選．我們就是還重新開始計劃．開始計劃的當中我們就是要如何來修好、修好多次．"},{"start":8565.544,"end":8567.908,"text":"在這裏面,我要請教的就是,你們回去研議一下,包括里長,現在有欠我的什麼,有需要什麼的補貼嗎?"},{"start":8580.25,"end":8588.231,"text":"因爲有人說看到沒意思沒數,看到沒錢沒錢,但這不是看心生的,這是要合情合理的,給人家的薪金一定要給人家,所以我直接跟政治說,該如何去補貼這些問題的時候,我們要研議一下,要做得好,不簡單,已經這麼多年了,現在拿出來,"},{"start":8608.655,"end":8617.349,"text":"好 這個我們會來處理好 謝謝好 謝謝王美惠委員老花言好 謝謝好 下一位我們習以琛委員"},{"start":8626.543,"end":8644.393,"text":"主席,請內政部吳政次跟複稅署王專門委員。好,委員好。好,政次好。我想請教一下,請問一下,到今天為止有幾個縣市有提交國土功能分區圖。"},{"start":8647.059,"end":8672.951,"text":"據我所瞭解先是三個縣市三個縣市嗎據我瞭解是這樣那請問國土計劃法是不是會延後上路因為這件事情全國大家都在關心不過我們原則上我們還是按照既定的這個期程可是現在只有三個縣市交歐那所以表示說這個部分可能是會有很多治安難行的地方我們到六月底之前我想陸陸續續應該其他縣市會陸陸續續會報上來"},{"start":8676.272,"end":8703.437,"text":"可能要了解一下這些縣市為什麼到現在沒有交的原因是什麼所以這個部分如果在這之前沒有辦法因為其實本席有提案覺得應該要慎重的來處理這樣的一個國土計劃法因為畢竟尤其對於一些農業縣對他們來說其實影響甚大所以這個部分的話我覺得要內政部這邊應該要審慎的來去了解各縣市的這個需求"},{"start":8703.977,"end":8728.673,"text":"然後提出來之後相關的這個不要就倉促的讓這個計劃法上路是謝謝委員指教這一部分我們會再跟縣市政府再去溝通OK好謝謝好然後另外次長我想我想在座的各位包括本席大家都很支持今天的修法但是有幾個問題要想要請教您就是我們的這個補助條例從民國89年制定到現在已經歷經24個函數"},{"start":8730.794,"end":8746.609,"text":"委員們都在幫村里長爭取條薪或加發年終獎金那直到去年有調高了5000元那蔡政府上任到現在都已經滿8年了為什麼會在交接前突然宣布要發給這個村里長的這個春節慰問金這項政策"},{"start":8749.967,"end":8763.225,"text":"我剛剛特別講這個議題已經很早就談談了好幾年在我所了解已經談過超過十幾年了那也不是因為到蔡總統要卸任才去談這個問題其實按照這個"},{"start":8764.406,"end":8771.29,"text":"在去年的時候在111年的時候我們市會是從4萬5千跳到5萬跳到5千因為時間的關係我想我只是提出來說過去這麼久了大家都在提出這個問題可是卻"},{"start":8782.956,"end":8801.133,"text":"其實過去有8年時間蔡政府是可以做這件事情可是卻在這個時候才提而且這件事情在行政院還沒有通過修法版本之前我們內政部長林佑昌就率先公佈那像這個部分的話為什麼一個上面有經過行政院通過的修正法案"},{"start":8802.094,"end":8827.332,"text":"內政部不像國土計劃法這麼謹慎小心一定要等到這個行政院協調通過之後才才能夠這個宣布那這次就這麼快在行政院都還沒有宣布之前就已經率先公佈了那個是這個村里長連會來這個有來找過部長那部長那一天也有過去那他們反映了部長這個先跟他做初步的這個回應那這個過程當中"},{"start":8829.628,"end":8857.141,"text":"立委剛剛特別提到這個過程當中會因為涉及到這個地方財政所以一直跟地方在做溝通那所以時間會比較這個剛剛你也提到地方財政的問題嗎其實地方財政相對的艱困所以這邊本席也要要求這個部分是不是應該要由中央來買單否則的話到時候地方財政根本沒辦法支付這樣子的就變成說是這個中央給這個通過這樣偵測的時候可是地方卻沒有辦法來處理"},{"start":8859.055,"end":8885.553,"text":"委員是這樣寫的按照地制法或者是財劃法規定這一個財源是必須要有地方來做嘛那我們也有一個機制是這個財政這個收支短差的部分也有一個補助的一個機制這個在財政部或者組總那邊都會有這個機制那我們認為說這個制度歸制度那不能因為說這個特別這個案子因為這個是草委的共識"},{"start":8886.567,"end":8911.839,"text":"那也沒有所謂說這一個這個說草委大家認為說這個應該你重要來復選因為如果是這樣子的話那帝制法跟才化法的規定就等於沒有用那等一下我想有一些委員會提案有這樣子的一個要求那本席也希望說能夠這個部分是由中央來買單以解決地方財政的困難因為畢竟現在才化法也還沒修正嘛然後另外就是這個春節慰問金要不要報稅啊"},{"start":8915.105,"end":8939.194,"text":"我們認為這個因為這個村里長這一部分這個都不是公務人員他是無極職的那這邊既然是無極職的他是事務補助費那就不是他的個人所得我們是認為說不應該去瞌睡但是這個要看看這個那請問一下複稅署這個針對村里長的這個春節温暖金是不是需要繳稅"},{"start":8942.093,"end":8958.244,"text":"委員,針對如果村里長他本身現行上的事務補助費的部分的話,那我們本身之前在75年的時候有發過相關解釋,就是說這些免納所得稅嘛,對不對?所以這個部分的話我覺得應該負稅署應該要根據這個發函給這個財政部啊,說明這個村里長應該是要比照這個"},{"start":8967.974,"end":8985.75,"text":"村里長處理村里事務跟推行政令只有免納所得稅如果說這個春節問津的部分的話那至於他的性質如何可能我們跟內政部再來討論一下那就麻煩這個內政部這邊然後另外還有一個問題要請教就是我們這幾年的CPI已經連續3年都增加"},{"start":8986.671,"end":9015.804,"text":"民眾已經苦藏了3年的高物價之苦基本工資一直調漲可是議員的公費助理補助費還有村里長的相關費用卻一直都沒有調整尤其是像這一次也是經過那麼多年了在這一次在蔡政府任期8年的時候做了一個這樣的調整未來是不是能夠把他們的事務費跟助理的薪資能不能隨著公務員的調薪一起來調"},{"start":9016.084,"end":9016.124,"text":"主席"},{"start":9032.52,"end":9033.961,"text":"現在村里長的事務補助費就已經涵蓋的為民服務的性質了"},{"start":9059.73,"end":9075.285,"text":"事務補助費一般我們大概講的就是一些啊比如說什麼那些什麼水電支出啊文具啦相關的應該跟衛民服務不一樣吧衛民服務也是一樣啊包括你平常的行政支出啦你知道有人拜託找小貓然後這個還拜託清水工這個都應該算是衛民服務吧"},{"start":9081.631,"end":9096.751,"text":"但是事務補助費跟業務補助費應該是不一樣啦﹖我覺得這個內政部可能要先研究一下他本來就是一個彈性的事務補助費對公共的支出或者是他的服務的支出不過我想這個部分我覺得對於不管是民代其實都有"},{"start":9097.191,"end":9097.711,"text":"李柏毅委員"},{"start":9127.577,"end":9127.838,"text":"首先感謝趙偉"},{"start":9138.338,"end":9159.929,"text":"其實我也有對這個地方民意代補助條例修正草案我在其實我們院版還沒有提出之前那我們就提出來那提出的方向其實是參酌其實這20幾年來都沒有調整助理都沒有調整薪資那我們講近8年好了"},{"start":9160.589,"end":9177.398,"text":"我自己遇到的例子近八年從2016一六年到二零二四年民進黨政府調整基本工資百分之三十七那一開始調的時候那時候我在高雄市議會我有議員同事就很好氣的跟助理說哇"},{"start":9178.444,"end":9203.582,"text":"我們這個地方制度法沒有修正以前我們的助理費上限24萬我沒有辦法調整但是我私人加給你3%第一次加3%加到後來加到37%的時候不知道怎麼跟助理說我要繼續幫你加了我幫你算一下也幫很多過去我的同事算一下如果從民進黨政府執政開始2016開始"},{"start":9205.407,"end":9215.283,"text":"的助理費的薪資上限24萬一共加了27%代表加到現在其實已經要上限已經要到32.88萬"},{"start":9218.136,"end":9246.618,"text":"應該是乘以1.37應該已經到這一個數字了那也就是說如果從頭到尾都跟著我們公務人員加薪的比例加給基本工資的比例加給他的助理或者是跟著公務人員加薪的比例加給助理的話其實每個月都已經多負擔大概八萬塊所以這個是今天我們在這裡討論這一個修大家所有三十幾個"},{"start":9247.738,"end":9274.057,"text":"立委提案討論這一個修法的原因也很高興今天的委員會可以這樣子我們跟國民黨委員民進黨委員我們一起來逐條的來討論因為如果沒有逐條討論跳過內政委員會直接進入二讀的話請問來次長到底要加多少這個在大會怎麼討論到底加班費要怎麼加"},{"start":9278.323,"end":9295.999,"text":"這個大會怎麼討論還有我們要不要納入部分工時這個大會怎麼討論還有我們的人數限制要不要放進來這個大會怎麼討論還有村里長在被抽出的版本沒有村里長的這個事務補助費的純潔慰問金這個大會怎麼討論還有"},{"start":9302.864,"end":9321.547,"text":"原民議員因為交通不便的這個事務補助費的加級這個大會怎麼討論所以也很感謝我們內政委員會今天可以等一下大家進入這個主條來主條的來審議我們的每一項的提案"},{"start":9324.399,"end":9348.888,"text":"市長你同意說20162016年到2024年基本薪資已經加到37%公務員的部分也已經增加17%這個助理費的調整內政部在我們委員提出來的版本之後才提出來的版本方向上有沒有一致還是"},{"start":9349.588,"end":9351.51,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教也謝謝委員的關心我想這個案子就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":9376.072,"end":9399.564,"text":"大家都有一致的共識但對於這一個院版的條件當然等一下我們會去討論我剛講的齁到底這個金額從24萬上限到我們已經加了37%變成32.88萬那現在院版我們知道提出來的大概是在30萬但是我們希望是一定要加上就是說我們也不可能期待兩年後的委員會"},{"start":9401.361,"end":9424.643,"text":"因為這個公務人員基本性是增加的時候委員會就會自己提出來說那我們再幫這些助理來增加這些費用社會也不會接受那是不是一併的可以來放入這個條文裡面因為這個是我們希望能建立這個固定的這個機制不能因為說這個其他狀況比如說事務會在這一次我們並沒有把他納到這個公務人員條件"},{"start":9427.716,"end":9454.181,"text":"來調整那因為他比較特別是因為他在111年有調過一次對從4萬5調整到5萬那我們這一次增加的不是事務費這一次增加的是我講很多里長的心聲我故意在這個母親節活動的時候那有很多這些鄉親們我在鄉親們的面前關心里長說里長你有沒有年終獎金里長說沒有啊"},{"start":9455.236,"end":9455.356,"text":"最後"},{"start":9475.816,"end":9503.052,"text":"感謝我們內政委員會會持續的來做這個討論在司法委員會其實已經被提上會動議的情況下那我們內政委員會來持續每一條來討論到底村里長的這個春節慰問金還有我們直轄市議員及縣市議員的助理的這個費用的調整是不是應該要繼續逐條的來做一些理性的討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":9506.94,"end":9514.268,"text":"好謝謝我們李博義委員的執行謝謝下一個我們劉行平委員好謝謝好謝謝主席喔這個次長有請喔好請次長好謝謝"},{"start":9532.067,"end":9544.339,"text":"市長早安今天花一點點時間來討論民意代表的這個費用因為今天其實大家主張的東西很不一樣很多啦當然還有主條討論是沒有關係但本期的主張是這樣福利從優 審查從速既然要談"},{"start":9547.102,"end":9567.778,"text":"因為這個民意代表尤其是議員助理費的部分其實20幾年沒有動那中間其實公教人員都加薪加滿多的對不對所以說遲早要面對這樣的問題但我是認為啦面對這個問題要做就一步到位來顧好品質我們主張是這樣所以針對院版的部分我們來做一下討論我想先請教次長為什麼我們要有公費助理的機制"},{"start":9569.652,"end":9573.836,"text":"所以你認為不應該有公費助理的機制嗎?當初為什麼有公費助理?當初為什麼界定叫公費助理?為什麼?"},{"start":9592.024,"end":9593.225,"text":"為什麼政府要補助議員去請助理?為什麼?"},{"start":9607.182,"end":9625.916,"text":"你會瞭解這政策的核心目標跟概念是什麼就是協助這個助理可以協助議員來做問政那因為有編列預算所以當初用公費兩個為什麼要公費是因為公平公平性為什麼要公平性呢因為我們今天大家都是投票選出來的民意代表可是我們有人家底很雄厚有人家底很單薄"},{"start":9627.062,"end":9653.179,"text":"如果說把助理這件事情單純定義為這就是民意代表的私人的民事雇用關係那麼家底雄厚的民意代表哇我可以二三十個三四十個助理沒有問題因為他出得起可是相對來講素人出生的相對年輕的他可能沒有這麼多條件的時候我的助理就變少了形成不公平的競爭也形成服務品質的差別這就是問題所以國家當初設定公費助理的制度的初衷應該是這件事吧"},{"start":9654.948,"end":9678.11,"text":"我這樣講有問題嗎還是你們反對這樣的說法?初衷是讓助理來協助議員來做問證那可能有一些議員的這個部分需要做一些補助所以這個補助是一個所以你要有一個基本款是大家都公平的情況去確保基礎的問證品質對不對?如果議員有需要拼更多的助理需要更多的經費的話可能就需要議員"},{"start":9679.151,"end":9698.195,"text":"所以你今天把公費拿掉其實是很危險的事情這是我要跟你講的第一件事第二件事為什麼大家講要檢討然後大家去談說議員助理也要隨著時代的改變他的勞工的待遇也要與時俱進所以說不只是薪水的補助他也要有加班費有資遣費有職災補償以及等等相關的一些措施"},{"start":9698.715,"end":9719.694,"text":"那行政院當然現在也調以前大家從來不去談議員的助理能不能有加班費現在講說有加班費但是你知道我很好奇啦你們院板當初算出比如說我以直轄市議員為例啦30萬元的公費助理的費用對不對然後其中有百分之百分之多少百分之二十之內對不對是算作加班費跟各種補助喔你們當初是怎麼算這個標準的"},{"start":9723.122,"end":9735.11,"text":"其實目前各個議會都有編列預算給議員補助助理的勞退跟健保的費用目前就有一些基本的一個費用"},{"start":9740.854,"end":9762.104,"text":"那目前我們如果涉算之後大概直轄市跟縣市的部分都會增加2萬左右就是說直轄市的原來編列的經費是4萬提升到這個6萬那這個縣市的部分1.2萬提升到2.8萬大概我們都已經涉算過了涉算過你確定嗎"},{"start":9763.786,"end":9778.906,"text":"你覺得在院版假設院版為基礎通過的時候一個議員啊一個直轄市議員或者是縣市議員他一個月可以多編出多少的加班費給他滿編的助理直轄市的部分可以4萬提升到6萬"},{"start":9782.059,"end":9785.362,"text":"市長你都沒有研究這不是你的所備範圍還怎麼樣?報告委員我特別要跟委員報告"},{"start":9803.993,"end":9826.412,"text":"加班我們現在用助理會額度的百分之二來提累那以前是勞健保勞退現在我們增加了資遣會跟加班會好對所以我今天要跟你討論的事情來你看一下表格按照30萬的基準來算我們用簡單的算法就平均也就是說我請七個助理一個認真服務不管是跑紅白鐵然後到寫法案協助問證的一個助理我給他四萬兩千塊不為過吧"},{"start":9827.853,"end":9849.975,"text":"合理對不對?我如果7個你30萬額度我才會請7個人對不對?7個人裡面42000多塊勞保勞退加健保每一個助理就8400多塊7個助理加起來多少錢?59115啊你剛剛講按照你院版的版本這個實際上法定預算編列的20%以內也就你只有6萬塊的經費你光是付勞保勞退健保付完59100多塊不見了"},{"start":9852.097,"end":9875.707,"text":"那請問這哪門子有加班費啊?平均一個議員一個月只有885塊的加班費可以給自己的助理那有休跟沒休請問有什麼不一樣?我們原本跟委員報告原本的這個之下是大概4萬嘛就我補貼他勞健保現行的狀況24萬加4萬大概就是勞健保用完嘛你把它提升到30萬結果你這個只變6萬而且不是外加的方式到最後還是沒有加班費啊"},{"start":9876.427,"end":9893.783,"text":"那不是諾溫那不然秀外秀就是一樣嗎?可能還4萬現在外加2萬嘛對你外加2萬可是你的總額提升到了30萬嘛所以你按照這不管是用什麼樣的排列組合算你都不會有額外的加班費出現啊因為光是付勞保勞退加健保就已經把這一筆6萬塊錢全部用完了捏你們有沒有算到這件事?"},{"start":9894.758,"end":9922.78,"text":"我們現在還有一個東西就是這個可以跟助理的人數的下限這是有關係的當然嘛可是問題就是你即便改變算法我剛剛也試過啦比如說兩個主任加上一般的比較基層算起來還是不會有加班費嘛來再看縣市議員的部分也是一樣啦縣市議員按照院版變成14萬也許是三個人四個人或五個人不管你怎麼樣搞排列組合一樣你所謂的加班費的20%用在勞保勞退健保用完就沒有了嘛"},{"start":9923.723,"end":9947.142,"text":"剩下可以調度加班費的額度剩下幾百塊有跟沒有不一樣所以我講你今天要修我肯定你但是我講除了審查重塑之外我們也主張福利重優今天有這麼多條文要討論我們先講這一件事情如果我們的加班費按照你現行的法條等於是沒有不要朝三暮四大家都是搞政治的人助理是很辛苦的要做當然是要用外加的方式來處理"},{"start":9948.703,"end":9964.767,"text":"我希望內政部在做這個事 我們都肯定我覺得這件事情不要在那邊藍的講綠的綁裝 綠的講藍的綁裝 黑不藝術啦我們講的是提升基層的服務品質跟勞動待遇嘛 對不對但既然要做就把它做好來我希望待會的討論可以往這些方向來對焦福利從優 審查中枢"},{"start":9967.408,"end":9986.585,"text":"這個等一下在討論的時候也可以跟委員再報告對阿你這個考量在內到最後只有一兩一千塊不到的加班費編下去大家會覺得好像期待很高阿最後發現好像都不是這樣所以該條的額度要調整該修的法條要做修正我們要從優處理好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝辛苦了好謝謝我們牛新平委員的資訊謝謝好那現在為我們黃捷委員謝謝"},{"start":9998.615,"end":9998.796,"text":"主席"},{"start":10005.68,"end":10030.938,"text":"市長好首先我還是要講一下說因為其實今天送進來這些民代條例總共有37個版本可是在上禮拜五的時候有幾個版本是被禁負二讀的那這樣會造成什麼結果就是我認為上禮拜禁負二讀的包括富坤崎總召黃國昌總召的這些版本會略顯粗暴而且有缺漏因為他們並沒有送到我們委員會來仔細的討論"},{"start":10033.24,"end":10053.578,"text":"那剛剛其實很多委員都有提到一些我們每一個項目都應該非常詳細討論包括說這些為民服務費要調到多少然後助理總額要調多少那原住民族的這些民意代表是不是要有另外的調升的額度甚至是說這些加班費助理費然後資遣費怎麼算這個其實都應該要坐在這裡好好的討論可是卻有人"},{"start":10058.703,"end":10077.415,"text":"越過這個程序並沒有尊重我們委員會的中心主義我認為這是非常非常不妥當的也對於這37個送進來的版本非常不公平甚至送進來的版本也都是不分黨派甚至很多是國民黨委員的版本難道他們的版本就不被這樣子同樣的規格對待嗎"},{"start":10080.097,"end":10095.935,"text":"那當然次長我想要先請教一下因為現在既然你們院板其實已經有送出來了只是說還沒有送進來那我覺得最必須還是要講一下說那這一次你們調生的有哪些項目有包括助理的加班費資遣費嗎"},{"start":10098.747,"end":10118.764,"text":"跟委員報告這一次修好有包括幾項一個是助理費的補助這個額度有提高那比如這個直轄市的部分從24萬增加到30萬那縣市議員是從8萬調到14萬也就各加了6萬塊另外我們定額還補助了這個助理的加班費"},{"start":10119.625,"end":10141.885,"text":"那這個我們用注意總額的外加百分之二十來算那直下市大概會增加4萬從原來的4萬加2萬變6萬那現在是大概年中可不可以跟大家說明一下還有我們原住民議員的部分年中的部分我們現在村里長的部分事務補助費的部分我們也加一個"},{"start":10142.466,"end":10142.646,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10161.471,"end":10172.742,"text":"是,這一次我們院版的版本算是非常的完整那這也是大家期待已久的所以我認為在這邊討論真的非常非常重要那我覺得還有一個很重要的是就是接下來我們的助理費的總額會隨著軍公教來調薪是"},{"start":10177.346,"end":10196.782,"text":"這個隨時的調整也非常重要而不是一直讓我們議員助理看著說其他公務員其他軍公教然後甚至立院的公費助理也都一直在調漲了但是卻讓議員的助理沒有辦法就是只能24年凍在這裡那再來我要花點時間跟次長請教一下這個雖然你們說接下來會有20%的這個加班費跟資遣費的編列"},{"start":10202.367,"end":10224.923,"text":"但是我認為這個算法還是有一點不夠精確的是因為現在的這個4萬塊是我們把助理的總額增加然後助理的人數的下限也提高了就是說至少7人但是呢現在我們加上去的這個加班費很可能讓實質讓助理領到的加班費還是偏少的那我們看一下我們的簡報"},{"start":10226.324,"end":10251.098,"text":"這是現在的這個狀況就是現在是24萬然後沒有加班費那如果之後變成是最低要7人然後是30萬的話每個人拿到的加班費只有885塊這個是我來算出來的並不是內政部說的2萬塊也就是說雖然到時候我們增加了但是真的拿到助理手上拿到的加班費還是蠻少的喔"},{"start":10253.799,"end":10275.315,"text":"這其實是我最擔心的問題因為我一直以來想幫助理的爭取就是比照牢記法該給的加班費該給的資遣費該隨軍公教調整的薪資都應該如實的送到助理手上這是他們應得的權益可是我們這一次調升的這個比例我認為到時候助理真的能夠拿到的加班費還是還是杯水車薪"},{"start":10278.457,"end":10300.769,"text":"所以我想問一下說次長現在這個版本你們有沒有發現這個問題剛其實有委員提到類似的問題我覺得這是我這一次其實覺得比較遺憾的地方其他我都認為來補助這個村里長的辛苦這個都很好一定要予以肯定但這一次的這個加班費的這個缺漏你怎麼看"},{"start":10302.635,"end":10316.412,"text":"謝謝委員我想當初在提這個修正版本的時候在設算上我們也有考慮但這就涉及到這個地方的這個財政的問題當然因為我也不能把它設算的很高我知道我是說當然"},{"start":10317.193,"end":10317.413,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10335.413,"end":10356.315,"text":"其實你繳完勞健保繳完勞退就差不多了因為你把它跟加班費全部放在一起都放在那個20%裡面了所以我想問一下說這個接下來有沒有比較好的再調整的方式或是接下來有沒有你們有機會再來做更好的調整因為這樣子對助理來說還是不夠公平"},{"start":10357.818,"end":10378.068,"text":"委員這樣子因為這一個可能要也要跟聘用助理的這一個上限或者我們現在要定下限把上限取消我們現在沒有上限了對我們把它取消掉這個有關係因為按照我們的統計大概目前為止這個直轄市來聘的助理大概平均是6.4人所以我們就把它"},{"start":10378.588,"end":10378.648,"text":"謝謝黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":10414.764,"end":10441.965,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請鄭次來,我們請鄭次各位好鄭次好是今天大家很關心這個問題是其實來組基站的都知道這基站的情況在哪裡我們想要說村里長好了,土地公土地婆事情每一步不管是路燈沒有亮,水鍋沒有通誰家小狗跑去咬誰家的雞甚至是"},{"start":10442.705,"end":10463.183,"text":"夫妻吵架他都要24小時全年無休的待命我都很相信這個提案對地方這些基層來說是很大的鼓勵那是一個很大的認同也是體恤其實很真的不容易不過我們今天去講這麼多點我們還是要回歸現實的就是錢是誰要出"},{"start":10464.434,"end":10490.828,"text":"那這個剛才提到的就是有些財政比較不好的一些縣市可能對六都來講的財源情況是比較充裕的他在支付這些是沒有問題的可是財政比較弱勢的一個縣市像臺東縣就是其中之一我們臺東就是這樣的情形這樣會負擔到本縣、辦公室、省委我們這一年的村里長包括跟我們的民意代表加起來一年要四千四百多萬"},{"start":10491.869,"end":10513.896,"text":"四千四百多萬對台中縣政府來講是一個很大的負擔喔我們一個體育館啊我們一個國中的體育場啊到現在要蓋起來都還要四處籌錢七千萬的體育場都要四處籌錢那這邊就是我只要提名講幾句話而已啦真的是這是用意良善我覺得我們都支持今天提案不是舉雙手雙腳贊成"},{"start":10517.037,"end":10542.7,"text":"但是這個部分我們也要考慮到縣市的財源情形所以不需要比較喜歡強烈的建議就是這個部分中央要來協助政事院來看謝謝委員的關心那這一部分剛剛我們部長也特別有提到最近這幾年其實事實上不管統籌分配款或者一般性的補助款其實都有增加很多當然有一些縣市的確財政是比較困難的"},{"start":10543.722,"end":10559.355,"text":"這一部分再透過財化的收支的這些補助機制我想這個應該是可以去討論那這一部分在組總跟財政部這邊應該也都是有這個既定的機制在走"},{"start":10560.935,"end":10587.051,"text":"市長你剛才說到很多問題包括臺中縣更特別臺中縣它不是鄉縣它還有它是原住民縣16個鄉鎮只有綠島鄉它不是原住民鄉鎮像我們提到的要加15%再加15%上去變10%嘛本來就在耕耕你再加起來對他說這個我們會想到什麼就是小時候我們要去原住老師很開心說同學你們都很認真我們明年去原住但是費用你要租有些家庭他的情況就比較允許"},{"start":10587.751,"end":10590.412,"text":"臺東縣這部分可以協助嗎市長我想這個應該不只是臺東縣"},{"start":10616.001,"end":10619.426,"text":"我講台東管啦,當然還有很多管事的問題嘛因為不要說這個台東縣啦,你像我自己嘉義縣也算什麼一樣,一樣這財政也是很窮啦"},{"start":10628.69,"end":10651.766,"text":"所以這真的因為整個臺灣的財政心理有很多不同的區分那比較弱勢的縣市這樣的美意他們也想要來協助可是財源不是這麼充裕真的是需要中央那邊來體恤現在不然有人中央來趕 倒三天還沒拖啊不要說這樣 鬆一鬆就你中央 趕快就地方政府這個 我覺得這個會扭曲一開始的美意市長有認同這件事嗎"},{"start":10658.61,"end":10659.931,"text":"主席議會同仁而且我們內政部我們的次長"},{"start":10688.86,"end":10692.965,"text":"委員好 阿吳處長你好 阿吳處長你好 阿吳處長你好 阿吳處長你好 阿吳處長你好 阿吳處長你好"},{"start":10706.28,"end":10706.72,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10725.812,"end":10742.987,"text":"任務選國代代表、縣議員、市議員、到現在的立法委員。所以我們和基層密度都是相關。我們也很辛苦,因為我們很了解里長有他們辛苦的所在,包含我是新北市議校的大隊長。"},{"start":10744.068,"end":10757.273,"text":"所以有很多我們的災難很多我們的很多不管說是在水域也好還是山難也好我們的很多里長他們都是站在一旁因為怎麼樣你說像疫情期間大家都是已經大家非常緊張但是里長他沒辦法去選嘛里長他也是要在我們里長他來出頭來不管說在消毒不管說是打疫苗所以他們都有他們辛苦的一面"},{"start":10773.98,"end":10790.312,"text":"所以說今天可以擺在這我也說很感謝因為我擔任召委我就說這個因為他的春節慰問金很多里長抱怨很多民意代表包括市民代表他們都有春節慰問金只有里長沒有"},{"start":10792.433,"end":10799.558,"text":"所以說在我們這次可以說我們有行政院的宴盤以及我們本席所提出的我們的法案內的我們的春節慰問金1.5個月這點我也感謝說我們的內政部以及我們行政院的宴盤都都有"},{"start":10816.751,"end":10821.054,"text":"謝謝委員對基層的關心我想我也來自基層我也知道這個村里長的確真的很辛苦"},{"start":10846.332,"end":10875.11,"text":"包括當節目時候都要贏嘛所以覺得這個我們在24年都沒有調整的情況之下那我們針對這個民意代表部分跟這個村里長的事務補助費的部分來做一個調整我認為這是一個這個很嚴肅而且是有必要去做檢討的時候因為畢竟24年在這24年當中一般的物價或者是基本工資甚至於公交人員的條件都有調過了所以我們覺得"},{"start":10875.709,"end":10895.429,"text":"這部分是院裡面院版的我們希望來這個一方面當然衛冕村里長的辛勞說我們有訂了一個事務補助費再增訂一個春節慰問金就用1.5個月來處理那至於這一個助理的部分縣議員之下縣市議員的這個助理會調整的部分那我們都很清楚就是說"},{"start":10896.215,"end":10923.775,"text":"這一個助理是由議員來雇用但是如果不足的那變成議員那自己掏腰包去雇用那以24年前這樣的一個額度現在已經經過24年其實已經要雇用真正雇用到人才或用人彈性已經幾乎是比較低了所以我們也看到這種現象我們這一次也把他納到我們整個的修法裡面把那個額度提高那另外給他加班費支錢費等等這些來見錢"},{"start":10925.07,"end":10929.45,"text":"這一個聘僱的制度跟我們用人的彈性以上做補充報告"},{"start":10929.991,"end":10958.325,"text":"好的 謝謝謝謝次長的回答其實那本席也是可以接受因為我們說地方過去你說很多議員他的助理會過去有很多助理會發生問題但是實際上大部分的議員他的助理絕對都是不夠因為他本身議員他都分商喜慶包括說最基本的你上一個會"},{"start":10959.446,"end":10959.566,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":10989.237,"end":10994.419,"text":"我們也覺得公民黨及民進黨及我們的民眾黨中共提出的版本有40個案雖然他們挑三個案但是還有37個案37個案包括過去"},{"start":11005.103,"end":11005.583,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11032.152,"end":11052.83,"text":"市長,本省最關心的是我們的國土計劃法,因為目前本省的資料現在只有金門、連江、花蓮提交,其他的都還沒提交,但是這個國土計劃法是明年的4月就要上路了,所以說在這個部分,我請市長你來回答這個。"},{"start":11057.526,"end":11085.388,"text":"委員我這樣跟您報告因為到目前為止有我這邊資料是三個縣市有送過來那因為我們給他們的時間是到6月底之前要送過來那我想這段時間陸陸續續有一些縣市有一些疑慮部分我們也都一直在溝通一直在溝通當中那當然外面也有聲音就講說啊這個是不是時間是不是可以再延那目前我跟委員報告目前我們沒有這個正式上我們沒有說要延因為"},{"start":11085.928,"end":11114.549,"text":"我們認為之前整個國土計劃法的說明吶內涵幾乎都已經講過好久了那民眾的疑慮我們可以透過不斷的溝通說明去跟他們讓他們去了解那有一些他們去有疑慮的事實上那些問題不是不是問題只是不太理解的關係那我們希望用民眾的語言來跟民眾溝通讓他們充分去了解比較好我們認為說好國土計劃是一個這個這個比以前的區域計劃更嚴格還是怎麼樣"},{"start":11115.157,"end":11123.028,"text":"我想這是溝通的問題我們會加強去溝通那縣市政府我們也希望他在6月底之前能夠送過來審查的時候有什麼意見我們再來去談就好"},{"start":11124.302,"end":11145.811,"text":"好的,好的部長,因為民眾還是要充分的去溝通啦,因為沒有他們的威力齁,萬一你說過去首期版的齁,不管說在我們的說明會也好,你看民眾反彈的聲音還是非常不大,這點就是我們要去求福,好不好,好的政策,我們一定要有民眾,大家都知道嘛,好,謝謝"},{"start":11148.385,"end":11149.747,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請政事"},{"start":11168.905,"end":11194.13,"text":"我這次好好我們這次修正草案的重點您看一下有沒有錯地方民代我們調整醫院助理補助費還有他的用人的人數然後補助支應助理加班費等等的費用然後再來就是調整衛民服務費那在村里長的部分呢我們是發給春節慰勞金然後還有另外一個部分就是我非常堅持的部分原住民的區域的特殊性的問題好這幾個"},{"start":11197.099,"end":11216.335,"text":"今天要討論至於要加多少助理人員要加多少就是待會大家討論下來的結果那我特別要謝謝部長我以為他會留下來但是他離開了但是我必須要再提一下部長其實在3月8號的時候就來我辦公室拜訪我"},{"start":11217.416,"end":11230.372,"text":"當時呢他就同意地方民意代表費用支給及村里事務補助費補助條例的修法方向就是我剛剛跟你講的那三大塊然後在10月18號在這個地方我也質詢了部長的時候我針對議員還有村里長的費用"},{"start":11233.115,"end":11255.302,"text":"部長也承諾我在一個月要提出修法跟改善方案所以我是召委我本來在一個月之後就要提了那今天吳召委提了但是我比較遺憾的是既然我在3月8號已經跟部長談到這個部分的公平正義的問題但是今天行政院的版本還是沒有列入討論"},{"start":11256.702,"end":11271.811,"text":"這是我感到非常遺憾的部分反而是我們的民意代表在這邊非常的認真、用功行政院並沒有版本所以待會兒討論的時候我們並沒有行政院版本作為依據這是比較遺憾的部分另外"},{"start":11272.671,"end":11296.809,"text":"在原住民議員跟村里長的部分我要感謝部長非常記得原住民地區要是服務轄區範圍比較大啦交通非常不便增加補助但是這次您知道嗎我們原住民地區的村里長事務補助費還有議員的衛民服務費按照你們的宣布就是告訴民眾你們要增加10%"},{"start":11299.352,"end":11317.692,"text":"請問一下增加10%的計算基準是什麼然後10%的補貼到底夠不夠用我要提醒一下政事就是即便是原鄉跟偏鄉我們原鄉跟偏鄉的各鄉的交通距離跟他的成本是有所不同的所以請問一下簡單回應"},{"start":11320.275,"end":11329.941,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我想這一部分剛剛委員指教都沒有錯,因為在原民這個地方每一個縣市的原民區都不進銷所以你們都是用比照10%這樣子來計算,例如如果按照你們來講直轄市議員我們增加到30萬的話,4萬增加到10%只有4千塊"},{"start":11344.051,"end":11370.878,"text":"然後縣市議員兩萬塊增加百分之十的話是兩千塊村里事務補助費五萬塊加百分之十就五千塊所以你覺得這樣夠嗎我們是不是等一下我們是不是因為時間的關係所以是不是我們等一下要討論我給你看一下按照我們的討論我現在用教育部的部分教育部當時我在教育文化委員會我就特別"},{"start":11371.618,"end":11398.423,"text":"把依據地理環境、交通狀況還有艱苦的城鎮這樣的因素制定在地域加急表裡面然後按照這個地域加急表裡面給予不同的補助加急那同時呢在今天的第8條裡面我有提到了我把這樣的精神放在我的版本的第8條處理這個鄭次寧知道嗎我的第8條所以你的意見對你的意見跟看法"},{"start":11401.552,"end":11421.944,"text":"這樣才真正符合公平正義嘛對不對所以你在所謂的齊頭市的公平加上10%那原鄉跟偏鄉的交通都不太一樣啊屏東你從哪裡從山地門鄉或者是從獅子鄉好了山地門鄉他要再到他的那個服務選區你知道有多廣嗎"},{"start":11424.059,"end":11434.286,"text":"對,所以我在第8條有提出來嘛因為交通地理環境不同所以呢我們給他加級表然後讓他有一個對照好不好然後同時呢我也要求村里長的事務補助費必須要按照消費者物價指數來適時的調整"},{"start":11453.819,"end":11467.304,"text":"總不能每一次任何一個行政院長上來任何一個部長上來要討好選民我們就每一次修法你認為這樣子合不合理我想單純用消費者物價指示來調那這個變動有時候會太大"},{"start":11470.629,"end":11486.821,"text":"那所以我們為什麼要提說就比照這個公務人員的這個條型公務人員的條型他考慮的面向會比較多一點比較完整一點好等一下我們繼續討論好不好在主條的時候然後另外呢我對於支持議員補助費的條型包括助理議員的加班費"},{"start":11488.803,"end":11505.615,"text":"這個部分我是沒有意見的但是但是內政部看一下101年的意旨函是說如果有加班的事實應該在規定助理補助費之下去支應或由議員自行負擔您知道嗎這樣的函式結果"},{"start":11507.836,"end":11535.996,"text":"導致我們的地方議員徵送不斷所以您認為應該怎麼處理而且我看到你們的願板部長跟我討論的你們只有一句建立內部控制制度我認為這樣子一句話並沒有真的解決問題啊所以你認為在第6條我們要怎麼樣處理用什麼樣的文字才不會讓地方議員他會因為這樣的處理而有徵送的事件"},{"start":11536.65,"end":11558.928,"text":"是 我想這一部分我們議會的內控制度我們是希望你不要再講內控制度了啦如果今天我們要修法是不是就應該要讓我們的地方的議員避免這樣的徵送的部分所以你待會要有心理準備我們會在這一條裡面讓行政院提出你們的文字版本好不好"},{"start":11559.488,"end":11577.106,"text":"最後我要為各縣市尤其是財政非常拮据的原鄉縣市來請命我們今天這些費用到底是中央買單還是地方自印我剛剛聽到部長在這邊回應剛剛還在的時候他說針對財政拮据的縣市他會專案處理是這樣嗎要怎麼專案處理"},{"start":11579.588,"end":11593.076,"text":"我想這一部分我剛才特別有提到就對於這些收支比較短差或者是比較窮的縣市那應該會有一個機制來做補貼那什麼樣的機制那這一部分可能要跟組總跟財政局你今天就要來組條了你今天就要修法了你都還要跟他們討論原來我們的條案是沒有這一部分"},{"start":11600.16,"end":11617.673,"text":"對阿你今天來你只針對要討好村里長的部分你們並沒有真正的想要來解決問題阿政治所以今天部長不留下來我覺得他不留下來有很大的因素就是不願意真正去面對處理我們現在不管是議員不管是中央買單還是縣市買單"},{"start":11621.215,"end":11634.883,"text":"所以您待會要有心理準備不能夠再用我現在執行年的態度來告訴我們在野的所有或者是所有的那個民進黨的委員我覺得這是不負責任的最後最後我要提醒您蔡英文總統在2018年說台灣的經濟目前處於過去20年來的最好的狀態"},{"start":11640.686,"end":11645.268,"text":"然後行政院長陳院長他也是在3月份的時候他也講整體的GDP大幅的成長我們的稅入稅出盈餘也很多然後呢會讓經濟越來越好我在想既然蔡政府都說這幾年經濟是非常好那麼是不是更應該要優先專案補助財政結局並且"},{"start":11664.096,"end":11680.047,"text":"因為地震而受嚴重的原鄉的縣市然後這些延伸出來的費用更應該要讓自稱經濟大好的中央來支應我想這才是符合全民的要求"},{"start":11680.747,"end":11705.452,"text":"委員這個也是事實啊,所以這幾年的傳說會不會...好,既然是事實的話,所以既然是事實的話,我們待會要處理這筆增加出來的費用到底是中央因應還是地方因應,你們就要有一個說法,如果按照你講的那個財政比較辛苦的縣市的話,你們會來專案,那怎麼樣的專案處理也要說清楚,好不好?謝謝"},{"start":11708.622,"end":11717.251,"text":"好謝謝我們高俊順的召委謝謝那下一位我們張立倫張志倫張志倫抱歉好好謝謝主席我們各位官員各位委員大家早安大家好是不是有請政次好請政次"},{"start":11734.404,"end":11754.236,"text":"委員好好謝謝政事今天很開心就是來針對這個我們不管是這個地方的民意代表及里長他這個費用的增加的一個草案的修正那剛剛我相信很多委員有請教政事他這個如果法案通過草案通過的話他是今年會發有關於這個里長的"},{"start":11758.519,"end":11772.586,"text":"委員金李長的這個年底的7萬5是今年會發還是什麼時候會發這個如果答案通過以後我們是明年1月1號明年1號要開始算所以要等到明年底才會發嗎因為春節委員金也是明年才會發"},{"start":11773.59,"end":11787.763,"text":"所以最快要等到明年1月1日才會開始等一下大家討論的那個版本後面有一條第4條是這個畫布14日起所以有辦法去改造今年發嗎有可能嗎如果大家等一下討論有沒有可能現在已經是5月份了"},{"start":11789.785,"end":11790.646,"text":"那一部分是春節慰問金"},{"start":11811.65,"end":11837.94,"text":"不是連中獎金,是春節慰問金,因為它是事務費嘛,不是事務費,我們用的是春節慰問金的春節慰問金它是事務費的性質嗎?還是什麼樣的性質?因為我們現在這個民意代表是吳啟職嘛吳啟職我們都有名字我聽到是里長啦,里長的一樣一樣所以它是有事務費的性質嗎?希望我千萬是事務費的性質嗎?它是另外一個科目叫春節慰問金的科目"},{"start":11838.18,"end":11853.934,"text":"我們只是以事務費的基準那5萬塊的基準來解釋特別要跟正式報告就是說這個如果是事務費的性質的話我覺得這是比較值得鼓勵的因為事務費對村里長來講是免稅的一個性質"},{"start":11855.876,"end":11870.676,"text":"財政部這邊的解釋也是這樣子那我們希望說這一筆錢解釋給辛苦的里長不管是過去疫情的期間或地震期間他會身先事主第一線面對所有的民眾努力所以如果你們的解釋他是以事務費的性質"},{"start":11871.637,"end":11887.466,"text":"財政部這邊就可以相對應的是可以搭配免稅的一個方案才不會讓這個里長們就是說還要當然是我們呼應誠實納稅可是這我認為他是有一點點就是為里長去著想的一個錢好不好這次這個方向可以嗎"},{"start":11888.306,"end":11911.288,"text":"謝謝委員關心這一部分我們跟這個財政部我們會來溝通我們朝這個方向來好才到這個方向來溝通那最後還有大家非常重視的因為地方的財政其實蠻拮据的所以地方當然有反映給我的一些心聲就是說這個的這個費用的經費來源大概是從哪裡可以來地方如果沒辦法支應的話經費是從哪裡來是不是中央可以來補貼"},{"start":11914.199,"end":11919.686,"text":"我想這個大概所有委員都關心關心這個到底這個錢是要中央來出還是地方來出"},{"start":11920.897,"end":11947.866,"text":"我剛才特別有報告制度歸制度有地方制度法跟財化法的規定你就是要地方來支應這個錢那至於那些比較窮困的這些我跟鄭氏報告基本上台灣這個所有的縣市應該每個縣市遇到這個都窮困可能你找不到一個縣市可以支應這些的經費所以我是不是請鄭氏就是大家討論一下由中央來支應這部分的經費"},{"start":11949.946,"end":11960.476,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們以現在我們的統計的射算大概六度比較高大概是1億多那地方大概有幾千萬不等"},{"start":11961.567,"end":11982.806,"text":"那以最近這幾年我們的這個統籌分配款的這個波幅都已經增加很多了而且又增加好幾億那以在我們任何地方要支應這個錢基本上沒有問題但對那些財政平常比較窘困的確是有點負擔那這部分才會說我們用其他的這個收支差短的這個補貼制度來處理"},{"start":11985.096,"end":12003.186,"text":"這個部分會後我們再用書面大家來討論一下,因為我已經得到說地方的確現實是有困難的,所以拜託政事這邊一定要來協助,不要讓這個利益良善變成地方政府承受的壓力這個也很正常,如果要增加都好,如果要出錢就照樣賠的"},{"start":12004.407,"end":12019.924,"text":"對阿當然我們也是要拜託政策不能中央的政策地方來付錢好那今天還有件事要拜託政策來協助就是今天在早上我們有開一個記者會是由本席跟這個王宏威委員游宇蘭委員開了一個記者會關於這個請"},{"start":12022.347,"end":12050.274,"text":"五清節前夕可是警察媽媽的暗夜長氣的一個部分那全台灣現在有8萬的警察可是最近最近這10年這個警察的這個自殺的人數增加尤其在今年非常的不尋常已經有好幾件警員這個自殺事件拜託主席再給我一點時間尤其今天早上這個受害者的家屬有來到這個現場來去做一個陳情的部分有關於這個"},{"start":12054.636,"end":12078.734,"text":"這個事件到現在好像家屬還在認為他是沒有辦法得到結論所以是不是可以拜託就是說有針對這個案件有關於綠營黨的部分是不是可以提供出來給這個不管是律師還是當事者家屬讓他們瞭解說是不是在這個當事者這個罹難者的部分有沒有受到不當對待的部分"},{"start":12080.448,"end":12099.64,"text":"請問正式了解這個案件嗎?謝謝委員關心因為這個案子有一個是這個監察院也已經立案那另外這個案子因為當事人的家屬他有提這個訴願那訴願也決定因為這個當事人已經往生了"},{"start":12100.396,"end":12127.101,"text":"所以在程序上已經沒有主帖所以我們先程序再實體嘛所以這個案子已經不受理做不受理的決定對可是這就是被害者家屬完全不能接受的因為這個案子我還是要跟正式報告一下他這個警大在短短的4天之內就做調查終結把這個梁信學生也是我們的警員把他給做一個"},{"start":12130.047,"end":12150.281,"text":"這個讓他就是不能再唸書的一個處分讓他非常不能接受而且他在24號的時候在調查中間也有提到說他當時就身心就已經有受到有受到問題有很有可能自殺可是警大才25號還是做出了退學的這個決定然後也沒有通知這個罹難者的家屬"},{"start":12151.462,"end":12164.804,"text":"到最後他們收到通知的時候已經是準備退學的那一天所以這整個的制度都很有問題所以我要請教政事你對這件事情是不是當時為什麼僅到4天之內就做出決定是不是有受到什麼樣的壓力"},{"start":12165.675,"end":12185.735,"text":"為什麼這個案子沒有什麼壓力這個據我所了解就這個警察給我們的資料裡面在整個過程啊過程基本上是程序上是按照一既定的程序來處理當然詳細的內容我不是很了解當初他們在詢問上有沒有什麼樣的問題我不曉得但是至少警察他給我們資料是這個過程是都符合"},{"start":12186.015,"end":12186.435,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12206.63,"end":12211.531,"text":"委員好我是警大的學務長請問一下這件事情你們現在調查的結果怎麼樣給避難者的家屬一個滿意的交代跟委員報告我們在處分的當下都有告知他們"},{"start":12235.547,"end":12252.953,"text":"會否告訴家屬你們的學生有這樣的情況因為家屬回應給我的是直到退學的當天家屬才知道有這樣的事情跟委員報告一下就是我們學校處理這個是十分審慎的我們又必須經過調查以後"},{"start":12255.214,"end":12277.329,"text":"提報虛擬委員會由施生組成的虛擬委員會來審議看看對於當事人有利或是不利的部分我們都會去釐清釐清了以後按照事實來針對違規的部分來做一個懲處懲處完了以後我們也"},{"start":12279.391,"end":12296.926,"text":"會給這個獎成令。獎成令裡面我們會針對他的違規事實跟法規還有懲處的這個惡意。好,謝謝學長。因為時間的關係,是不是會後我們大家再做一個瞭解跟檢討。應該要給受害者家族一個公道,好不好?好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。"},{"start":12300.009,"end":12320.286,"text":"好謝謝我們張志隆委員的發言那再來請我們邢欣盈委員發言然後我們中午到李坤成委員發言完畢我們就休息用餐好謝謝那我們就沒關係我們等一下發言"},{"start":12322.521,"end":12339.889,"text":"主席,本席想先在這裏有些人有疑慮對於國民黨團或是民眾黨團上週五抽出有關我們地方民意代表還有村里長春節慰問金"},{"start":12340.689,"end":12367.834,"text":"抽出提案：法案那禁負惡毒交付禁負惡毒的這個疑慮今天我們要來審查我想這個是沒有問題的因為禁負惡毒之前的協商我們今天這個討論如果有結果有結果我們是可以併案處理可以一起採納相關的內容所以本席接下來要就相關議題來請教吳次長"},{"start":12371.533,"end":12372.098,"text":"好,請我們吳次長"},{"start":12377.195,"end":12400.132,"text":"市長好首先本席想請教我們看到內政部報告的第二頁有提到議員助理補助費總額上限的問題那請問市長我想行政院版的草案雖然今天沒有送進來但行政院版的草案應該是內政部提給他的吧那針對直轄市議員跟縣市議員助理補助"},{"start":12405.169,"end":12433.742,"text":"總額的上限分別各加6萬請問你們這6萬怎麼算出來?為什麼就是上限只加6萬?報告委員在我們當初在設算的時候就我剛剛特別講在設算要跟那個助理的人數一起去考量所以委員會認為說我今天支價是為什麼一樣只加6萬那你縣市為什麼只加6萬本來他們的薪資水準就可能會不太一樣所以"},{"start":12440.05,"end":12462.606,"text":"議員的費用呢?你上限有設6萬嗎?議員一樣有設啊因為我們是補助上限最高的上限不是對啊為什麼上限是6嘛本席的案本席的提案就增加7萬啊所以首先我想請教您就您印象所及20年前的我們買一個便當一個主菜加4樣"},{"start":12463.707,"end":12464.767,"text":"現在一個主菜加四樣配菜便當要多少?"},{"start":12483.43,"end":12486.815,"text":"如果台北的話我看大概120對120這樣增加了2.5倍不到2.35所以在這種情況下我們這個地方民意代表的一些費用"},{"start":12500.292,"end":12524.611,"text":"還有助理的費用我們都沒有與時俱進所以我們特別想提醒內政部這20多年來物價一路漲如果我們看地方民意代表的費用調整你只純粹用增加支出或者是用當時立法背景的角度來談恐怕不周延特別我看到你們好像都是引用89年的立法理由"},{"start":12525.612,"end":12526.693,"text":"當初縣市議員跟鄉鎮市民代表的研究費並沒有納入主管家級這個項目,那是什麼原因?"},{"start":12545.689,"end":12567.071,"text":"報告委員 這個當初是考量到我省府那時代那一個他們的薪資如果這個加了主管家旗的話全熱超越當時的那個水準對但是那時候有那時候的背景的因素嘛所以現在我們這個應該要增加這點您認同吧"},{"start":12567.864,"end":12595.921,"text":"我想這個可以大家可以去討論所以這個物價上漲我們整個縣市議員跟鄉鎮市民代表的這個費用呢我們應該要考量基本工資還有民生物價的漲幅這個要一起考量進去這幾個變相是要應該一起去檢討所以現在我們縣市議員的費用只有83150元跟市民代表只有61830元實在太低了所以"},{"start":12596.874,"end":12610.695,"text":"本席認為要納入主管家級現在的時空背景應該可以了吧是可以齁這一部分我們尊重各位委員的意見啦這個可以討論好那再來就是剛剛很多委員在關心啊"},{"start":12611.789,"end":12629.064,"text":"今天草也應該都有共識要為地方民意代表還有我們的村里長他的慰問金來增加這個費用那大家都關心說這個費用到底要從哪裡來出那我看到我們5月2號行政院會有通過"},{"start":12630.825,"end":12655.016,"text":"內政部的新聞稿有說要依據地制法規定財源必須由地方籌措但行政院表示預計會有部分縣市需要補助請問你的部分縣市是哪些縣市你不能用顏色來分別部分縣市吧我想這不會有顏色的問題那你的部分縣市是指的是什麼"},{"start":12655.416,"end":12681.126,"text":"就是那些可能他的財政比較困難收支有差短的這一部分所以大概這些資料在財政部所以你是依據財政部的資料各縣市的收支的情況那對於很努力還債然後也很辛苦的那碰到這種情形他就沒有得中央的這個資源因為這要看每一個縣市他的收支情形"},{"start":12682.261,"end":12684.965,"text":"所以你們財政情況處理的標準是什麼?行政院表示預計會有部分縣市需要補助將是財政情況處理"},{"start":12697.722,"end":12713.475,"text":"那這個東西非常的籠統而且這個東西感覺上都有你中央說了算這個我們很憂心不會他本來就是一個機制你總要讓這些財政比較差對你什麼機制你在這邊跟大家說清楚嘛最後就這個解答這個財政部門組長那邊會有我這邊沒有啦你現在簡單跟我們講"},{"start":12720.08,"end":12747.421,"text":"因為他這有一定固定的比例啦所以你的意思是要財主他們來回答就對了對因為這跟稅收有關係嘛那你們最後確定定案定調是怎麼樣嘛我們定調就是剛剛講的就是說對於這個財政比較困難的這些縣市我們另外就按照每個縣市都說他比較困難啦好啦那你就說比較困難的那現在我們每個縣市其實財政都困難所以你們都要協助沒有啦有些縣市也很有錢啦"},{"start":12748.818,"end":12751.3,"text":"謝謝我們許新榮委員的資訊 謝謝我們下一位我們丁卓中委員 謝謝"},{"start":12777.99,"end":12789.699,"text":"主席好,請到我們次長好,請次長今天我們委員長差不多啦,次長好我們村里長是我們地方公所委員會的第一層加上我們村里長都真的非常認真付出,也很高興我們內政局及行政院"},{"start":12798.746,"end":12803.692,"text":"來宣布說要請教我們這個村里長的這個春節慰問金,這也算說讓我們賴總統的九年陣仗可以提供一篇條一個大例但是當這個過分,我們台灣請教我們國管情要請教五頁"},{"start":12817.987,"end":12819.328,"text":"5月8日及9日兩天一次會議"},{"start":12847.315,"end":12856.945,"text":"我想我們的這個報告委員齁 這個我們財政有劃分等級嘛 有分五級啊對啦 剛才你說的我都聽到 我現在要告訴你說 我們分年關一半十二年齁 我們的修理及技術差十九億啊 我們這間有合作財政付加的"},{"start":12865.43,"end":12886.523,"text":"如果假設因為我不曉得最後的數字是怎麼樣因為分林交加去港幣都很少的對 這樣分林交加如果人家還可以那個數據有沒有我說他沒有財政的那個數據我不曉得如果是這個狀況應該就會得到我們中央政府的補助假設他有差短的話就會對 就就可以了啦我先推分林管政府給你們講一下因為分林管"},{"start":12887.483,"end":12890.306,"text":"可是我了解好像移民現在這個財政越來越好"},{"start":12906.621,"end":12906.781,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12923.131,"end":12926.572,"text":"議員的處理費自民國99年至今已經20年都沒有條件：我們事長知道這中間基分公租為民國1.1萬9千塊變成至今1.132萬7千幾塊：照法庭規定"},{"start":12944.977,"end":12951.342,"text":"關於議員的租率上限是約一百萬元。依照規定是兩萬九四元,若是放車上限九四元,定義租率費用約兩萬元。但二十年前要跟政府符合基本工資。"},{"start":12967.453,"end":12974.855,"text":"但是至今已經沒有符合這個資本工資：我有知道我們最近有要來修正這個議員這個助理費提高到14萬因為我們現在很多官司我們的議員那個素質都越來越好都很多年輕人他們對著我們各官司的這個業務方針他們都非常認真所以他們要牽扯到非常專業的助理的領域所以我們如果說"},{"start":12997.783,"end":13005.008,"text":"及規定這個上限的條,我們規定這個上限的條．有可能這條政策有辦法去撐到非常重要的一個條例．所以我在這裡會拜託市長,這個國分．這個上限的國分,我們來先調整一下．像是說兩人一箱,這樣就可以打"},{"start":13017.518,"end":13017.959,"text":"還有一個問題"},{"start":13032.731,"end":13041.053,"text":"我們經常在新聞看到說議員什麼助理會什麼柵林助理會這就都去卡到堂屋了我們是公費助理我們現在的法令是公費助理我們想可以把這個公費助理給廢掉我們給他助理就我們要補助他們14萬我是希望可以給到16萬"},{"start":13056.816,"end":13064.381,"text":"對啦,我們補助他們這個助理費,我們直接給議員,他們自己主委去簽他的助理,我們就限定說兩人,要兩人醫生,對啊,他們如果說簽比較少,補負比較少,後一個月年齡,有可能補負不好年齡就比較困難,所以他們自己給他們去主委去運用,不要說因為這個公費助理,這個公費就定義是公費另外啦"},{"start":13081.731,"end":13095.441,"text":"對,第一是政府請,不是他的老闆,不是議員。我想感謝委員,委員的意見跟行政院的案版是一致的。對,都一樣啦。我們未來我們就是總要給議員自己自由去發揮嘛。是,我們只是等一個上限補。"},{"start":13097.883,"end":13098.144,"text":"對議員來說有比較好的說法"},{"start":13116.338,"end":13126.486,"text":"還有一項就是我們這個鄉民代表費為民服務費我記得我17年前我第一屆常務政理的時候我做代表那時候就三千塊跟這次也是三千塊我會告訴你我們有還要提高兩千塊到五千塊這個國分我們還有跟這個全國代表費、任議費我們有跟他們討論聽他們的心聲"},{"start":13143.963,"end":13149.536,"text":"我想這一部分在一些開會的場合大概我們都有提過那這個因為"},{"start":13152.728,"end":13170.442,"text":"代表會會比較特別是代表它是一個比較多席次的選區又比較小的那這一部分為什麼我們調整會從三千調到只調到五千呢大概考量到說因為它服務的我相信可以用次長用時間我來聯絡這個全國代表會連議會主席連議會好不好是邀請他們起來我們立法院還是跟我們那個次長我們開一個座談"},{"start":13180.41,"end":13191.878,"text":"5月20日之前可以520以後可能找不到我如果520之前你有答應520以後算不算數"},{"start":13192.523,"end":13210.836,"text":"那要看吳衛明之後我講的話算不算數哇 這樣也是要給我連消費我跟妳講實話 我跟妳講實話有啦 有時候一段時間你來延續下去啊這延續是一定會延續對啊 你們不能說現在這樣公開的 如果有時候要給我連消費 親台連連 大家湊湊的 這樣耍耍的 不能這樣啦我跟妳報告委員 這個政策已經被延續了 不然是現在我們黨內 或我們共產黨內 我們要給你們歡迎事情 你們給我用這個連消費的方式"},{"start":13222.608,"end":13224.37,"text":"我看我是5201號再用運起來好了"},{"start":13237.645,"end":13240.286,"text":"李昆辰委員我們就休息我們的中午用餐1點半再開會"},{"start":13267.005,"end":13269.21,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請次長"},{"start":13279.685,"end":13307.053,"text":"市長好 謝謝我在當議員的時候其實關於這個議員助理的心智的調整其實我們就爭取了很久然後右昌部長他當部長的時候其實我們也跟他反映過那其實很高興那這個內政部還有這麼多的委員都有提案那我也希望說能夠順利這個送入二讀然後這個會期能夠順利過關因為其實朝野都有共識當然只是有些幅度這個會有不同"},{"start":13307.813,"end":13332.226,"text":"那我有看過這個行政院的版本這個調整議員助理補助費的總額在直轄市的部分是24萬調整在30萬然後這個縣市議員部分是8萬到14萬然後這個聘用的人數呢這個取消上限這個直轄市的話至少7人然後這個縣市議員至少3人這部分我是支持的然後第二部分就是說這個"},{"start":13333.807,"end":13352.592,"text":"過去這個議員的助理只有補助這個勞保健保跟勞退嘛那現在你們這個新的這個條例是說這個用助理補助費總額外加20%來補助原有的本來的這個勞健保勞退之外擴大到這一個加班費跟資遣費嘛對不對"},{"start":13353.212,"end":13370.938,"text":"如果說外加20%的話之下市議員每個月就是6萬然後縣市議員就是2萬8千塊那我再問一下那這個增加的部分跟過去只有這個勞健保跟勞退那增加是多少可以讓這個議員來指引這個加班費跟資遣費"},{"start":13372.619,"end":13393.955,"text":"我想原來的沒有修正之前還沒修之前的4萬跟這個1.2萬基本上是支應他們的勞退跟這個勞健保跟勞退金就多2萬一個多2萬一個多1.6萬那這一部分等於拿來作為加班員之前會來使用那之前會不一定都會發生但是我是認為說"},{"start":13398.419,"end":13413.335,"text":"兩萬其實不夠啦因為我們自己有時候六日都會帶著助理跑或是說有時候晚上有活動所以這兩萬加20%這部分其實我是覺得可以再增加啦雖然說你們這個是有跟著這一個"},{"start":13417.459,"end":13438.008,"text":"公教人員的薪資調整在做調整嗎?我想這個都會去考量,主要當然也要考量到地方財政的問題當然啦,但是我個人是覺得說這部分百分之10其實不夠啦,還要再增加相對於立法委員的助理的加班費其實差距是很大"},{"start":13440.349,"end":13457.766,"text":"第三點是說這個那當然大家就很重視就是有關里長的這個加發春節慰勞金那用這個里基費的這一個5萬塊然後這個多1.5個月就是7萬5那我相信因為這個部長當初在這個三重有跟這個里長座談那里長有提出來"},{"start":13458.246,"end":13473.64,"text":"他提出這個方案那其實里長是都很支持都是很正面看待了那我相信這個很多的委員也都會支持那我也不認為說這是選舉考量有反對的我看有很多新北市議員國民黨的議員在反對我認為反對的才是選舉的考量"},{"start":13477.043,"end":13492.286,"text":"那本席因為是山崇的立委那最近有關於這一個盧北重劃案因為把這個山崇果在市場遷入引起大家的關注那我在這邊也做個說明那這個就是說因為我過去是擔任這個山崇盧州的議員"},{"start":13492.987,"end":13515.399,"text":"我長期關心這項議題。三重果菜市場的都更計畫,其實過去在朱立倫市長的時代是原地重建。在104年內政部的都市計畫委員會審議通過,那時候就是現地重建,而且先建後拆,安置原有的攤商。到了侯友宜時代才改成異地重建。"},{"start":13516.079,"end":13520.184,"text":"當時侯友宜市府在108年辦理盧北盧南重劃區的檢討案的時候那時候才把三重國債市場的遷移案納入而且在109年通過新北市都委會的審議再送內政部來審查"},{"start":13534.84,"end":13558.96,"text":"到現在都還沒有通過,為什麼?因為新北市政府是霸王硬上弓不但先上車而且到目前都還沒有補票我再說明一下,抱歉主席再給我一下時間這個盧北農的都市計畫本來要進行公覽進行公開展覽的時候在108年公展的時候那一塊地還是屬於公園綠地,公二十四"},{"start":13559.62,"end":13587.694,"text":"但是新北市政府後來在進行都市計畫審議的時候後來才又把這個山蟲果菜市場的遷移把它遷移到這一塊的原本的這個公園預定地來而且把它變更為批發市場用地然後中央當時候是建議新北市政府要補辦公展但是到目前為止新北市政府一直沒有補辦公展然後就把案子送到內政部來所以我說他是霸王硬上弓"},{"start":13588.234,"end":13600.868,"text":"先上車而且到目前為止都沒有補票這是我在當議員的時候就要求這個新北市政府要辦公宅到目前為止都還沒有那新北市政府呢不僅在程序上有問題還在實際上規劃也有問題因為侯市長為了要把這個三重國債市場搬來這個盧北重劃區把它綁在一起弄了一個銀河灣的計畫"},{"start":13610.597,"end":13636.124,"text":"這個計劃就是在原本的24公園預定地 劃設一個3.5億公頃的批發市場用地然後他又包山包海 給盧州市民一個期待他說我們除了有三重果山市場搬過來之外 我們要把它立體化要做什麼呢 國際會議中心 會展中心 購物中心 休閒旅館等等但是最重要的交通的問題 到目前為止仍然無解"},{"start":13636.824,"end":13657.786,"text":"所以本席認為說 這個不是中央在卡新北 是新北市政府在卡山崇跟卡蘆洲山崇國際市場遷移案呢 如果按照目前的規劃 是造成這個山崇跟蘆洲的雙輸而且造成這個山崇蘆洲的市民的對立 所以我認為它是一個雙輸的都更案"},{"start":13658.527,"end":13673.591,"text":"所以本席是建議新北市政府要重新思考三重果菜市場是全國水果交易量最大的批發市場交通便利絕對是影響市場生意好壞最重要的關鍵那如果他沒有辦法解決交通問題未來牽過去對三重果菜市場好嗎?"},{"start":13684.5,"end":13691.589,"text":"新北市政府要重新思考不要把問題全部都丟給中央然後就說中央在卡新北"},{"start":13695.37,"end":13721.058,"text":"對於地方的重大建設不管都更或重大建設中央只有協助不會去卡那這一部分這個新北到現在因為還沒有提送這個補充資料來說明所以我們也希望新北趕快把這個資料提送到我們的土地徵收小組或專案小組來這個談那該我們協助我們一定會全力來協助會盡速來審查因為這個部長也跟侯市長有談過了那我覺得就是說我們要把這個事情的來龍去脈講清楚"},{"start":13722.498,"end":13723.539,"text":"謝謝理工程委員的資訊謝謝處長現在我們休息我們中午用餐"},{"start":16404.738,"end":16407.899,"text":"好我們繼續開會我們現在請我們鄭天才委員出行謝謝主席有請次長好請次長好謝謝委員好次長是這個520就"},{"start":16436.184,"end":16439.348,"text":"希望有更好的安排我們看這個在111年111年3月30號本席當時擔任這個內政委員會的召委"},{"start":16452.728,"end":16474.506,"text":"安排了這個地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費的補助條例當時這個本席的質詢的投影片是特別提到這個村里長的事務費21年都未調整這個而且21年來"},{"start":16476.596,"end":16476.836,"text":"在行政院板"},{"start":16504.512,"end":16531.421,"text":"雖然還沒有復委還沒有到進入委員會開始並安審查但是你們也呼應了這個民意的需求也特別提出了這個行政院版這個部分都是一個應該要去考量的部分那我們地方民意代表包含了這個直轄市議員縣市議員"},{"start":16534.001,"end":16562.368,"text":"還有這個鄉鎮市民代表還有7名代表所以這個部分是應該應該要一併的去去檢討那我們看這個我自己的條文跟我認為要更精進的部分就是說因為原住民族第7尤其是我們原住民的部落村子非常大"},{"start":16563.198,"end":16586.795,"text":"非常遼闊這個0與0之間家父與家父之間的紀理都是相當相當的嚴所以相關的部分這個希望能夠對於這個村里長的部分應該有所考量然後應該要隨著這個物價指數來做這個調整所以這個部分是應該要去"},{"start":16593.238,"end":16620.354,"text":"考量的部分當然這個除了村里長之外像那個鄉鎮市民代表一樣就原住民的部分也是一樣這個我一直認為現在的鄉鎮市民代表或是縣市議員直轄市議員去比照那個主管比如說這個鄉鎮市民代表比照課長這個"},{"start":16623.581,"end":16649.911,"text":"這個而且是八指等一接那那個像那個縣市議員呢比照這個處長九指等現在十指等了幾指等現在十指等十指等但是公務員他我們都知道啊公務員都會一年一年調啊對不對會調啊"},{"start":16654.082,"end":16671.046,"text":"像那個直轄市一樣啊,局長十三指等,他要一階二階三階,他要到年功夫啊,我們都沒有啊,再做幾十年也是一樣啊,所以這個部分也是一個必須要去思考的地方。"},{"start":16672.694,"end":16700.095,"text":"那我們看這個我們就講直轄市議員的助理今天很多都是談到助理的部分助理的部分確實也是一樣必須去考量從過去到現在也都沒有去調然後這個相關的人數和總額都必須去考慮所以這個部分希望這個在我們的"},{"start":16701.195,"end":16719.111,"text":"有竹條審查的時候內政部及相關的部會應該給最大的一個支持以上謝謝謝謝委員這一部我們都有把它涵蓋在內好謝謝我們鄭天才委員的執行那下一位我們武力法委員好"},{"start":16731.598,"end":16732.239,"text":"謝謝主席有請次長"},{"start":16737.689,"end":16765.518,"text":"市長好今天大家來審查來討論我們的這個民代條例看起來都是草野共同支持那特別是要感謝我們很難得看到我們這麼多年訂定這個條例以來第一次看到行政部門主動提出而且是大幅的調升那這個部分呢我看到的就是說物價指數年增率"},{"start":16766.218,"end":16792.616,"text":"是上揚了那綠年的基本工資調整呢也是急劇拉大很多那再來就是這一些年來的公務人員的調薪我們也看到特別是蔡英文總統任內她就連續調了三次所以種種的條件之下呢我們這次能夠主動提出這樣的一個修法我是非常肯定也非常感動"},{"start":16793.476,"end":16820.727,"text":"但事實上這個大幅提升確實也不是說沒有道理那我過去我也不斷的接到這一方面的陳情我也透過公文也好質詢也好那多次的來反映民意我特別要講的是說像每一次我們提出這樣的意見像上一屆村里長其實村里長的事務費要把它調高"},{"start":16821.647,"end":16847.455,"text":"我是有把它放在我第一次參選的政見當中表示地方這樣的聲音期待很久那也很高興上一次我們已經把村里長的事務費調高了5000元可是這一次我們依舊還是要提出那我在這邊要談的就是關於地方民代因為地方民代我看現行條文跟我的版本"},{"start":16848.652,"end":16877.039,"text":"不僅僅我提出的是議員的部分村里長的部分我的版本是特別提到我也想要把鄉鎮市民代表的部分希望來做處理那為什麼因為我要講的就是我看到我們目前地方啊像這一些代表們大致災害小致地方的商帳補助其實他們很忙的"},{"start":16878.021,"end":16899.537,"text":"可是我覺得對我來講更重要的是其實在我們的鄉民代表會在我們的鄉也有很多的地方自治事項可是沒有助理我們沒有給他們支持所以我們看到日本我們很羨慕像日本有很多什麼東川丁啊古川丁啊等等等"},{"start":16900.518,"end":16920.713,"text":"他們鄉的自治單位做的地方創生過去我們談的社區營造他們都可以透過他們地方的這樣的一個自治條例把整個鄉還有每個村落都可以規劃得非常好相當的具有我們的公民素養素質"},{"start":16922.094,"end":16944.412,"text":"所以我一直覺得這個部分其實是非常重要的但是我這一次看到我們這一次的修法那不曉得為什麼獨露這一些鄉鎮市民代表所以我想要問一下次長如果說我們以增加3萬元也好6萬元的助理費也好我們大概會需要增加多少費用很困難嗎"},{"start":16947.32,"end":16960.365,"text":"謝謝我們委員的對我們地方民意代表跟村里長的這個事務補助費的關心那我想跟委員報告就這一次為所我們在這個鄉鎮市民代表部分我們並沒有"},{"start":16961.118,"end":16963.701,"text":"但是我剛才講的這一些您覺得有沒有道理?"},{"start":16984.619,"end":16999.806,"text":"當然這個代表在各鄉鎮市當然也有它的功能不過它服務的範圍比這個縣市議員是比較小一點所以我們就沒有把它規範在那裡但是我們有把它的這個衛民的服務費"},{"start":17002.108,"end":17023.96,"text":"我想他們非常需要助理我覺得這個對我們整個我們的行政體系也好或者是地方自治的系統也好其實這是很基礎很重要的單位那我會繼續關心繼續質詢我希望未來也有更多的版本更多的立法委員那也希望我們內政部也要主動的來提出好不好"},{"start":17025.14,"end":17037.847,"text":"最後我要講的就是我這一次也特別提出因為我過去也一直質詢不斷地強調我們原住民我知道的一個村最高我知道的是管10個部落"},{"start":17038.697,"end":17038.717,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":17060.018,"end":17075.174,"text":"委員會來支持也有做這樣的一個修法版本那包括能夠編列給他們春節慰勞金還有這個年終工作獎金那這個部分我都覺得非常的好那我其實是本來想要問說內政部為什麼有這樣的一個態度的轉變"},{"start":17077.056,"end":17086.463,"text":"我其實是覺得非常的高興那我想最後因為時間的關係我只想問這個地方政府這個增加的費用他們有沒有辦法支應那我們打算如何來補貼我想這一部分在中央或者地方去支應這一筆錢的部分早上剛剛特別有講那這個會考量到財政的狀況"},{"start":17102.679,"end":17104.083,"text":"所以您的意思是說是可以支應的?"},{"start":17110.427,"end":17115.669,"text":"那會有配套...對,所以你們已經有規劃了我們今天就要討論啦,我相信你們應該有規劃吧不可能隨便拿出一個版本出來所以是有機制的,所以這個地方我們是不用去擔憂的因為很多人擔心啊但是你們有去做規劃有做配套嘛對不對"},{"start":17138.4,"end":17152.431,"text":"這一部分我想財主單位在我們這個定案以後他就會去規劃後面的這些好那我們就盡快來定案好謝謝市長謝謝主席謝謝吳立法委員的知見下一位黃國昌委員謝謝主席麻煩有請市長好請處長"},{"start":17169.468,"end":17197.244,"text":"委員好市長上次在質詢內政部部長的時候我知道今天好像部長有事就先離開了吧沒有關係有公路大家可以諒解大家目前針對平均地權條例我們發現的現象是說本來司法人是禁止買住宅的司法人是禁止買住宅的那授權給內政部在一些例外的狀況可以允許他買"},{"start":17198.297,"end":17212.831,"text":"當我們發現內政部在審核這些例外的狀況的時候實在是荒腔走板有些人透過他設立的投資公司議員公司申請向你們買宿舍你們竟然內政部也核准了"},{"start":17214.541,"end":17236.675,"text":"這種誇張的狀況從3.2億的豪宅甚至到5.6億的文化院我上次質詢過部長部長說這個不對這個不對這個不應該許可那我現在的問題來了如果按照現行的辦法他本來就不應該許可現在內政部打算要怎麼辦"},{"start":17239.453,"end":17239.473,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":17267.288,"end":17288.471,"text":"因為依法你當初已經核准人家了先提一下依照行政程序法裏面違法的行政處分要不要撤銷對啊那部長也說這不應該嘛那這為什麼不是違法的行政處分這個當初你要看他當初這個購買的時候我們核准人家當初他是不是違法事情非常簡單啦是"},{"start":17289.427,"end":17313.488,"text":"議員公司買宿舍一個人住這個叫宿舍嗎這個是符合當初我們在平均地權條例要開的例外條款嗎為什麼我認為這是一個違法的行政處分因為他根本就不符合例外所應該允許的狀況對正部卻允許了所以我認為是違法的行政處分我上一次"},{"start":17314.754,"end":17338.098,"text":"請教林克昌部長的時候他有認為說這個不應該準這個是林克昌部長講的喔但內政部在面對這個問題的時候你不能夠在國會一手說這個不應該準結果轉身回去到內政部的時候說啊既然準了就準了這個我們也沒有辦法處理這個態度不對吧來請教次長"},{"start":17338.678,"end":17343.92,"text":"我先提一下齁你把不應該准的東西現在把它解釋成不是我們不應該准只是因為規範不足"},{"start":17361.957,"end":17387.538,"text":"這是兩件不一樣的事啊市長你應該可以區別吧是不應該準確準了跟啊是因為規範不足所以我們準了這兩個不一樣的事嘛所以現在內政部的立場是什麼是李耀昌部長上次在這邊講說這不應該準是在講空話嗎是在講空話嗎因為現在大家都很關心啊是非常多人都很關心啊"},{"start":17389.412,"end":17414.484,"text":"不應該準的卻準了結果我們內政部軟趴趴是碰到這些什麼大富翁大富豪大財團膝蓋很軟沒有辦法執行法律嗎請教次長也不是啦現在就是因為我們發現到有這樣的漏洞了嘛所以我們現在才要把他拼起來嘛所以從內政部的立場來講你們認為之前的行政處分沒有問題是法規有問題是嗎"},{"start":17416.428,"end":17438.316,"text":"是當初我們也沒有去考慮到說你現在當初的規範不足就是你讓一個人的公司怎麼可以去買豪宅時機有限我尊重接下來的委員但我覺得立場要講清楚第一個第一個對內政部今天這樣子的態度我不同意我為什麼不同意不應該準的東西確準的你們就要處理"},{"start":17439.229,"end":17462.364,"text":"而不是李耀昌部長在這邊跟全國民眾說這不應該這不應該准結果今天的說法變了今天的說法變成了是說那個是因為之前的規範有問題我們來修規範那至於之前准的怎麼辦也沒有打算要怎麼辦這是我的立場這是我的立場第二個"},{"start":17463.871,"end":17479.96,"text":"就你們現在目前遇到修正的司法人買受公住宅使用的房屋許可辦法今天早上我跟奧斯的朋友跟關心居住正義的朋友我們開了一個記者會我們開了記者會的訴求非常的清楚"},{"start":17480.74,"end":17510.263,"text":"你們即使修訂了這個辦法沒有辦法解決問題那為什麼沒有辦法解決問題包括了說你們現在員工的人數從一人修正為五個人就可以那當初陳泰銘滿文華院他是六個人啊按照你們修正的辦法就可以啦最嚴重的事情是什麼最嚴重的事情是你們根本沒有列管追蹤使用狀況的查核機制啊"},{"start":17510.799,"end":17534.788,"text":"沒有列管使用狀況的查核機制那等於是空的嘛等於是空的嘛你事後像現在一樣發現啊 原來他不是宿舍你有沒有辦法怎麼樣嘛你甚至沒有機會去了解他根本就不是拿來當宿舍用嘛所以今天我們剛剛奧爾斯開的記者會我們的訴求很清楚這件事情"},{"start":17535.848,"end":17551.018,"text":"由新的部長由新的部長聆聽所有關心居住正義跟平均地權條例的公民還有公民團體的心聲再做決策不要在林佑昌部長下台以前匆匆通過可以嗎"},{"start":17552.12,"end":17554.561,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員的執行 下一位委員我們洪孟楷委員"},{"start":17589.039,"end":17591.262,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請次長好請次長官員好"},{"start":17595.956,"end":17620.795,"text":"市長,很多委員都關心這樣子一個村里長的相關的費用以及我們民代議員助理的費用我們這邊內政部也提出來行政院的版本我先糾正一下並不是我們現在在討論第9屆就已經有委員提出第10屆也有委員提出那當時的內政部部長或是相關的代表講什麼"},{"start":17623.286,"end":17640.745,"text":"那個時候都講說地方財政困難都講說地方各縣市的議會財源不一地方財政困難對村里長地方政府的財源不一也是對議員的助理所以那個時候都動著不動那現在"},{"start":17642.026,"end":17650.554,"text":"行政院竟然已經有推出版本行政院版的草案議員助理費是從24萬直轄市24萬變30萬縣市議員是8萬到14萬對嘛是所以你們說直轄市議會每年會增加2億7千多萬縣市議會增加3億8千多萬是那這裁員怎麼來"},{"start":17670.955,"end":17687.41,"text":"村里長的部分年終獎金年終慰問金不能講獎金年春節慰問金行政院的版本陳建仁院長那時候也喊出來並且有講說初估會增加五億多元是五億多那這裁員怎麼來"},{"start":17688.53,"end":17711.905,"text":"因為這個都屬於地質法律的這個地方自治所以我那一屆就一直講啊現在是中央請客地方買單啊這個也不是中央請客啊這怎麼不是中央請客地方買單我們每一個委員的版本可能有更多那可能有更多的情況下但至少你行政院今天要負責任啊提出來的版本你們既然有行政院版你就應該是行政院要裁員出來不是嗎"},{"start":17713.746,"end":17729.579,"text":"還是你要有各縣市不一的補助因為本時剛剛聽到很多委員也在請教你啊財源的部分你有講是說看各縣市情況那會不會造成有些縣市有拿到補助有些縣市拿不到補助所以這個為什麼要看縣市的財源的問題財政狀況的問題"},{"start":17731.58,"end":17753.016,"text":"這不對啦這樣就大小眼啦我們中央怎麼會對各縣市有大小眼之分呢有些縣市的財源是地方政府自己籌措有些縣市的財源是中央補助給地方讓地方去發這樣就變成說中央可以這樣子發錢我看這個縣市感覺比較好還是這個縣市顏色跟我比較相近"},{"start":17753.757,"end":17760.283,"text":"那會不會又變成是藍綠之分這個不會啊怎麼不會那你的標準是什麼你的標準是什麼因為等一下主席也宣布說我們下午可能會有主條討論啊那你在主條討論的時候一定要告訴我們清楚明白講說我們的這個財源怎麼來以及你的機制是什麼啊是"},{"start":17775.1,"end":17796.058,"text":"我想這個都有一個固定的機制現在我要報告的就是說在地方制度法跟財務法的規定那這些都屬於地方的自治事項那這些相關的預算就由地方來編類那如果假設你的財政比較困窮呢我們就另外一個機制收支差短來補貼如果說趙市長你剛剛講法的話那你之前第9屆第10屆黨籍就沒有意義啦"},{"start":17798.34,"end":17824.639,"text":"你之前第9屆第10屆如果說你可以講是說啊這都是地方我們尊重地方那第9屆的時候委員也好議員也好大家都有提出來為什麼那時候你們要打你那麼說講是說就是地方財政困難你們考慮地方的標準所以說你們不願意讓他過那你現在讓他過你現在提出來行政院的版本之後你告訴大家那你們自己畫的這一個部分"},{"start":17825.441,"end":17841.276,"text":"年終會問金5萬乘以1.5個月那是比照我們公務員的這個1.5個月嘛對不對參考嘛那你參考這部分結果你這財源還是一樣要地方政府籌編那這樣之前你們黨的意義是什麼"},{"start":17842.25,"end":17863.152,"text":"以前那也不是黨啊以前你可能考量到地方財政關係這幾年的財政狀況有改善啊我先來讓你我不要扣你帽子但是我先告訴你啦說實在話第9屆第10屆各黨團都提出版本啊就只有行政院一直沒有提出版本所以說大家會覺得卡就卡在行政部門嘛"},{"start":17864.192,"end":17886.529,"text":"那你現在我都不講說政治考量喔我都不講是說內政部長跑到地方的實查活動然後突然間宣布了大家怎麼說聖誕老公公來了要發紅包了這不是啊你只是講的是說我們中央願意通過有春節慰問金有議員的薪水提高那裁員怎麼來你們自己去想辦法"},{"start":17888.755,"end":17904.834,"text":"這樣不就是把責任又推給地方嗎那你這樣子的話地方政府哪一個地方政府會不接受那如果說你是要讓地方政府去編列裁員的話那你之前第9屆為什麼就不通過因為責任還在地方政府身上啊不是嗎"},{"start":17906.119,"end":17931.038,"text":"當初的考量為什麼會沒有通不是因為黨的關係我相信這個東西這個議題是一個比較嚴肅的議題當然是嚴肅的議題就是因為嚴肅的議題就是因為是嚴肅的議題所以我們才不要政治思維來想所以我們才會覺得說奇怪怎麼會內政部部長上任了一年多的時間這都沒有處理到要卸任了520了而且看開名單一看新娘不是我了"},{"start":17931.838,"end":17951.72,"text":"內政部部長已經有新的人選出來了賴清德總統已經指派新的人選了我才用地方的行程去講說那我們要來通過那這樣子會讓大家覺得奇怪所以我們才會講你既然你今天要負責任提出行政院版我肯定有提出行政院版的負責"},{"start":17952.481,"end":17980.83,"text":"那你提出行政院版你要負責任連同裁員一起提出啊而不是說你的行政院版我今天沒有講說委員的版本你都要有裁員哦委員的版本有更高的大家會爭相24萬不夠我要48萬我要多少錢那當然提出這個版本可能行政部門中央還要這些算算盤但你至少你行政院的版本裡面你們就要有裁員啊而不是你們行政院版本出來你還是要讓地方付錢啊"},{"start":17981.71,"end":18001.302,"text":"不是這樣嗎?案期制本來就是應該他目前我們先講啊 制度性先那如果說案期制是地方不足的話那這樣子你就不用審查啦那為什麼你要審查?你們過去一直強調過去一直講說地方財源困難然後各縣市議會財源不易所以說你們不願意放不是嗎?市長是"},{"start":18004.161,"end":18020,"text":"等一下主條都這個這個這個問題非常嚴重而且這個是中央負責的態度如果說今天中央只通過但是你沒有準備裁員那很抱歉你們就玩假的而且這樣就真的坐實了中央請客地方買單"},{"start":18021.431,"end":18045.404,"text":"我覺得這絕對不是我們應該要推動的村里長很辛苦我們大家都認同地方議員的助理很辛苦也因為這過去二十幾年都沒有調漲所以大家也都希望調漲但是既然中央提出來這樣的版本你們就應該要負責裁員這才是負責任的做法啊我想這個案子等一下主條的時候我也請求主席一定要讓次長這邊報告到底你們現在規劃的裁員是什麼"},{"start":18046.044,"end":18060.249,"text":"不是說看縣市還是不是說這個還沒有先排這個照理講應該今天要討論主條的時候你們就要先提出來你的報告裡面就要寫清楚而不是讓大家還在那邊詢問以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃孟楷委員多資訊 謝謝好 下一位楊瓊英委員"},{"start":18074.175,"end":18077.818,"text":"市長好,今天討論的議題我記得每一屆我都會提出來尤其是村里長,村里長當時本席提出了四項結果就通過了第一個事務費"},{"start":18100.516,"end":18122.298,"text":"當時制定4萬5那隨後再上一屆我們再提就改為5萬那第二個也就是保險費那個健康檢查所以當時通過了事先先通過這兩項可是在這個本席的提案還有兩項沒有通過第一個就是春節慰問金"},{"start":18123.399,"end":18138.193,"text":"第2個就是出國考察也就是村里長的考察費那我今天非常歡喜我看到行政院也好藍綠白大家都希望因為現在村里長的壓力非常的大"},{"start":18138.954,"end":18138.974,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":18156.783,"end":18175.914,"text":"年尾2月5日也有理定的事就是如此你拼命的點頭也知道他們的辛苦所以第一個春節慰問金1.5個月這是大家都是非常認同對不對那你這個如果我們在這個會期通過呢什麼時候要發呢"},{"start":18177.263,"end":18181.506,"text":"謝謝委員對村里長這個事務的關心明年的1月1號開始實行你是要到年底才發還是114年初就發不是1月份就2月份左右吧就在114年好那我們確認時間那1.5個月大家確定那誰出錢"},{"start":18207.473,"end":18212.916,"text":"這個剛剛大家還在討論的中央出錢不是中央出錢春節未運金你當由中央來買單"},{"start":18219.408,"end":18239.978,"text":"全部加起來才5億多李當由中央買單這是本席的意見因為各縣市的財政不一我們要充分的尊重我們所有的村里長所以李當7748村里到目前為止應當這5億多要有中央買單你認同嗎"},{"start":18242.594,"end":18244.596,"text":"錯!因為我們的地方自治法裡頭以及我們的財政劃分法本來就沒公平"},{"start":18263.593,"end":18289.443,"text":"所以李當春節慰問金他不是薪水他不是薪水李當要由中央來出本席把我這個立場跟我們中國國民黨的立場一定要告訴你你要接受你要接受委員的這個意見我們尊重了好謝謝你一句尊重接下來本席要來跟你討論也就是我們在地方議會裡頭這一些助理人員"},{"start":18292.588,"end":18319.856,"text":"我們的村里長21年沒調整 對不對那我們的這個議會21年沒調整24年沒調整真的在議會裡頭的公費助理想要請不上因為目前的現況不管是所有的通膨物價指數的增高沒有理由不提升 對不對是啊 這一次我們這一次修法的原因"},{"start":18321.226,"end":18348.399,"text":"也是你們修法的原因嗎那這個是大家都非常的關心我們也希望待會在主條討論的時候我們要朝這個方向那特別村里長的部分本席還提到一點也就是村里長他沒有薪水但是他因公傷亡的應該要給予協助講補助是很難過但是應該要協助這一部分我們有保險對不對我們幫他們辦保險"},{"start":18349.875,"end":18368.859,"text":"不夠啊我們現在保險從五百萬拉到一千萬再去盤點好不好沒辦法啦是因公傷亡的應該要給村里長一定要給他們協助這是最基本的嘛你去盤點你現在有五百萬到現在多少一千萬你去盤點看他們的單項不是數額的問題"},{"start":18376.781,"end":18377.482,"text":"你去盤點那個內容我覺得這一項非常重要好不好你盤點好"},{"start":18394.232,"end":18412.607,"text":"詳細的順利資料給本席好不好那最後在這個在1分鐘就好在我們的議會裡頭本席的提案公費的部分呢就是公衛會公衛助理適用的勞基法裡頭的規定如加班費勞保健保"},{"start":18414.076,"end":18426.168,"text":"老退金、雇主負擔的部分、勞工職災受的保惠應該要比照公教人員年終工作獎金卓越給予未老金"},{"start":18430.992,"end":18447.868,"text":"這個部分本期覺得非常的重要我們希望在討論的時候能夠納入好不好讓我們的最基層的第一線因為從這一次的疫情你就可以知道我們的村里長跟我們的林長是多麼多麼多麼的辛苦他們所做的事情有多少你應該認同吧"},{"start":18449.91,"end":18465.278,"text":"所以我們一定要好好的要謝謝他們把他們法治化尊重他們好不好謝謝謝謝楊從英委員的花言之心那下一位請我們盧憲伊委員之心請次長請次長"},{"start":18482.17,"end":18494.437,"text":"市長辛苦了我們先看一下目前美國的一個平均月薪那你大概知道我們目前的平均月薪嗎?如果以勞工來說"},{"start":18496.268,"end":18522.386,"text":"現在好像是4萬8千如果總收入的話應該是5萬8千所以目前美國的話這是平均就是3千美金最少的話是2千5百也就是7萬6跟9萬左右那我們先看別的國家是這樣我們下一頁他們在他做了1990年一直到現在的一個議員的一個"},{"start":18524.093,"end":18527.597,"text":"次長先知道說等下要講的理由是什麼?"},{"start":18541.747,"end":18556.084,"text":"我們現在都是用最低的標準在看比如說我們現在是八萬塊然後我們說如果要請三位助理的話可能就不符這個最低薪資所以我們其實基本上這個邏輯都是在最低的一個門檻那2400億是從1月1號到現在所欠的"},{"start":18560.222,"end":18560.422,"text":"主席"},{"start":18579.579,"end":18589.593,"text":"每一個委員他雇用的人數不一定是一樣的如果按照我的想法就是能夠增加到"},{"start":18593.078,"end":18608.916,"text":"新市議員是16萬的話我的想法就是他我們先行規定是6到8位2到4位如果用那個剛才所謂的勞工的基本薪水的話大概請不到7位然後新市的話請不到4位所以我才會希望能夠至少這32萬跟16萬這是最低門檻"},{"start":18611.579,"end":18625.542,"text":"我一直要強調的是這一點好不好然後希望那個法制化的部分上面有寫公費助理各項補助加班之前職災補助我希望他的那個加班是可以有上限"},{"start":18626.877,"end":18653.526,"text":"可是不要有那個要應該可以時報時效像我們公務員他之前我在當公務員的時候他就說你一個月不能加班超過多少個小時不是20小時好了應該是這樣然後時報時效然後如果說他是路程的關係比如說加了油買了車票我應該我覺得應該要尤其是偏遠地區這邊請市長這邊再考慮可以嗎感謝內政部採納本席的意見就是原民地區是5萬5"},{"start":18654.912,"end":18681.913,"text":"那當然之前也很多委員都已經說了按照以後的那個生活的基準再調整那我希望出國考察能夠強制能夠執行如果不能出國也是我們在本國的一個理由也可以因為其實他的理由是希望能夠村里長能夠休息因為他們只要在部落或是在地的話他們根本就沒有時間休息從早上6點開始morning call一直到晚上他們基本都在為民服務"},{"start":18682.734,"end":18699.507,"text":"那強制他們休息也可以促進他們的身體的健康跟家庭的和諧我希望是這樣那剛才我有聽到你說已經調整到一千萬我就不用再提了那下一頁那我的主條就是我的修正案已經有列印出來了那在最後一頁"},{"start":18702.064,"end":18720.861,"text":"修正這4萬2萬跟5千我希望這個是基本的那我們知道原住民地區剛剛有很多委員說我們原住民地區有些村莊不是只有一村他還管了好多個部落這樣的一個等級你要怎麼去算有一個方法就是你車站多遠你醫院多遠在那個等級來算的話你會比較清楚"},{"start":18721.647,"end":18723.229,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18752.216,"end":18768.044,"text":"主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關所長官員,會場工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請次長。好,請次長。好,謝謝。委員好。次長辛苦了。是是。主席,我請教你一件事。是。我們現在全國的村里長,村長及里長,我們的事務費都一樣。"},{"start":18774.559,"end":18794.689,"text":"有分嗎?有沒有分六都的比較多,非六都的比較少?沒有。但是有哪個地區的村長會比較多?這個大概有一些直轄市就會比較多。原住民地區嗎?一般是五萬嘛,原住民五萬五嘛。你認為這合理嗎?"},{"start":18796.226,"end":18817.877,"text":"我認為合理因為多位地區人口密集村里長要做服務其實雖然人多可是跑腿起來不會很辛苦你同意嗎?是 這個我同意原住民地區剛剛我們幾位原住民的委員包括吳立法委員包括幾位委員都說什麼?都說我們原住民地區的村長很辛苦你同意嗎?"},{"start":18818.777,"end":18834.291,"text":"所以你覺得可以不一樣嘛不是因為他的人口比較多是因為他區域比較遼闊區域比較遼闊所以他的負擔比較沉重所以事務會給他多一些這個邏輯你同意齁好那我們來看一下縣市議員的助理補助費我們來看一下"},{"start":18838.75,"end":18867.161,"text":"6都的你從24調到30人數從6至8調到至少7人非都的8萬調到14萬2至4人到變3人原來如果是非都的縣市議員他只有原來的6都的三分之一調了之後還不到一半人數也是一樣就算調整之後也不到一半你覺得去分6都跟非6都非6都的縣議員他們縣市議員的助理的補助費不到直轄市的一半你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":18868.181,"end":18890.476,"text":"為什麼?為什麼會這樣?這個直轄市喔,六都直轄市跟這個縣市本來他的這個薪資水準本來就不太一樣。所以我跟你說,我來看一下啦,你們是印到人口啦,我再算給你看以屏東縣跟台南市來比比看啦,人口數我們少他一百萬出頭啦,一元席次我們少他兩席"},{"start":18890.996,"end":18916.433,"text":"但是原鄉的部分我們人比較多扣掉原鄉的議員數再用非原鄉的人口去算平均屏東縣的平地的非原住民的議員大概1.74萬就產生一個如果是台南都的話大概是3.4萬所以我們的選民產生的縣市議員大概是都的一半啦所以大概你們這樣算一算齁就是算出這個來了是不是這樣的原因是是這樣嗎 往下看"},{"start":18917.932,"end":18938.913,"text":"但是呢我們來看一下產生議員的面積啊桃園都跟新北都啦跟我們屏東縣比起來啦我們屏東縣的總面積比他大很多啦原住民的地區先拿掉你不要說我們來原住民地區的行政轄區來灌水扣掉原住民地區的選區非原住民地區的選區我們大概60.3平方公里就要有一個議員來服務"},{"start":18940.074,"end":18961.385,"text":"那其他的桃園的跟新北的服務的範圍大概20平方公里或30平方公里剛剛不是有說嗎?原住民的村里長為什麼?他人靠沒那麼多啊但是他開的很快啊所以村里長事務你們給他多嘛我支持啊那為什麼你們非六度的縣市議員下一頁為什麼你按照人口數來分配呢?為什麼?"},{"start":18965.755,"end":18981.686,"text":"市長你剛剛不是講了嗎?我們都支持原住民地區範圍廣闊、人口比較少,但是相對更辛苦。按照這個邏輯,我們非六都的縣市園範圍更廣闊,雖然選民數比較少,但是是不是應該?就算沒那麼多也要比較,你說怎麼樣是不是這樣?"},{"start":18983.783,"end":18991.787,"text":"我想這個比較特別的是...比較特別?邵俊賢:「邵俊賢!」邵俊賢:「邵俊賢!」邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!邵俊賢!"},{"start":19008.168,"end":19031.084,"text":"那這一部分如果假設你用面積用人口算當然這都是在考量在內啦是啦因素都會考量在內啦所以我現在在跟你表達啦就算我傳你到科魯就是說原鄉的部分雖然人口比較少可是幅員遼闊我們支持讓原住民原鄉的村里長的事務費要左右提高反映他的工作的負荷同樣的道理"},{"start":19031.804,"end":19050.018,"text":"都跟非都的縣市議員非都的縣市議員服務比較遼闊雖然選民人口比較少但是你們給他的助理的配置待遇的配置人數跟金額都不能相稱嘛所以這點可不可以要檢討一下這個當然可以來檢討是說因為有一些東西是人類比較集中嘛"},{"start":19051.107,"end":19052.469,"text":"非六都的縣市議員我們不是在幫民意代表爭取福利"},{"start":19066.483,"end":19090.375,"text":"我們因為民意代表報告立法院要配置助理才能為民服務那目前為六都的縣市議員明顯的待遇不如六都人數助理人數比較少我們是在幫他的助理爭取權益啊他現在請三個人是不是比別人還累比六都的助理還辛苦我們要注重助理的勞工權益你支不支持是這我們支持啊好最後一個我們來看一下這一次主席來揚你我們來看一下"},{"start":19093.576,"end":19117.435,"text":"難道這次全國目前在上週五近乎二讀的有三個版本是在討論地方民意代表的費用支給跟村里長的事務補助費大家的方向都一致但是你知道嗎目前只有三個案近乎二讀喔這三個案是分別是傅君祺總召王洪輝委員還有呢蔓玉珍民眾黨的新住民代表"},{"start":19118.288,"end":19120.972,"text":"結果37個提案今天在審查為什麼只有那三個superstar他們可以在上週五的院會幾乎二讀"},{"start":19131.843,"end":19146.362,"text":"市長你知道這個結果會有什麼差別嗎?你知不知道有什麼差別?他們三個人的提案比較特別比較偉大另外37個部分黨派都是滿天星星不足為道是這樣嗎?這個我們尊重你們尊重喔?我跟你們說趁這個機會喔跟大家說啦"},{"start":19149.406,"end":19163.726,"text":"為了今天在上週五近乎二讀只有三個版本很多的我們的提案委員在地方上被民眾質疑為什麼?因為上週二近乎二讀的時候民進黨的提案要在牌路表決沒有機會排"},{"start":19164.847,"end":19186.529,"text":"按照立法院的慣例你要去反對別人提案來支持自己的提案這是天經地義的但是我們不是反對這三個委員對於地方民意代表還有村里長的一個補助費的支持我們的提案都在37案裡面我在這裡也要拜託主席未來這37案出委員會的時候要爭取跟前面那三個案並案審查"},{"start":19187.89,"end":19203.982,"text":"沒有齁,這個案如果通過之後所有的功勞所有整齣的都改成他們三個版本而已就是國民黨兩個版本,台灣民進黨一個版本其他的包括37案當中有很多國民黨的委員的版本通通放在這裡丟包啦"},{"start":19205.122,"end":19230.741,"text":"這個部分不是我們次長可以決定的,也要拜託主席這兩月37個案：總管委員審查是做出互待決議並案跟其他的那三個案並案協商,要求大家悄悄作會大家共同來為我們之前的包括議員、代表、他們的助理、還有包括原住民在內、原鄉的村里長跟非原鄉的村里長他們的一個應該給的資金"},{"start":19232.622,"end":19236.044,"text":"張家俊委員不在林思敏委員不在吳思瑤委員不在"},{"start":19258.669,"end":19264.817,"text":"邱振金委員不在黃仁委員不在邱志偉委員不在劉建國委員"},{"start":19284.997,"end":19313.926,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請市長吧,還是次長?次長來,有請次長。喂,好。次長,民貸資金條例,如果這次修,有多久?從現在算起,往前推,差不多多久沒有修過了?89年,89年開始施行嘛,到現在24年。就是2000年的時候嘛,對不對?那2000年的時候,我剛好時任地方的市民代表,"},{"start":19314.597,"end":19339.829,"text":"所以今天早上的時候我有特別感謝部長還有感謝召委把這個案排進來讓大家有充分討論然後去把一些問題凸顯出來可想而知在2000年的時候明代資金條例去做這個修正其實是很大幅度的變動那市長知道怎麼變動嗎?針對哪幾個部分有大幅度的變動?委員是講這一次嗎?沒有2000年的時候就是89年嘛"},{"start":19341.112,"end":19348.205,"text":"二千八九年的時候我這一部分是不是我們這個誰可以講的講一下"},{"start":19350.304,"end":19375.671,"text":"8、9年主要是法治化那以前這個各地方的一個規定大概都不一致所以這個明代自己條例把它各地方都一致化主要是這個部分主要這樣而已嗎?不止喔?不止不止那當然那個經費的一個部分有一些調整比如說縣市議員的原來各地方不一致那後來目前是有規定助理補助費8萬元這個部分"},{"start":19376.124,"end":19388.596,"text":"也比當初各縣市在省的時代的部分還高就這樣市議員的部分也有調整你知道鄉村市民代表怎麼調整嗎"},{"start":19391.681,"end":19410.528,"text":"也是把它一致化如果說原有的一致化基本上應該不是叫做大幅調整我講的大幅調整嘛 對不對你知道當時的那一個還沒有修正過後的鄉鎮市民代表的那個研究會是多少嗎?修正完之後又視停多少?"},{"start":19413.357,"end":19415.259,"text":"如果說原有是1後來變成2變成3那是不是變動的弧度很大對不對"},{"start":19425.509,"end":19453.215,"text":"那個時候的鄉鎮市民代表領的是19470塊啦修正完之後變成49470啦那這樣變化大不大?非常大嘛對不對?好那村里長事務會全國統一嘛齁那也是那時候做了相關的這樣調整嘛這都變得很大事我想我要把這個歷史的脈絡再講一次嘛齁然後在最近幾年還沒有修這一次之前啦齁最近幾年我們針對村里長的事務會又有著加5000嘛對不對?好"},{"start":19455.876,"end":19460.347,"text":"這兩次都在民進黨執政的任內嘛那我沒什麼做這些事情"},{"start":19461.601,"end":19487.481,"text":"就像今天內政部提出來包含一般縣市的助理的費用我們要調高這是其一嘛 對不對還有衛民服務會我們要做相關的調高那在在都是在考量現今的一些狀況我想助理基本上為議員包括我們的助理為委員來做事情那其實他真正的目的還是衛民服務嘛"},{"start":19488.601,"end":19504.178,"text":"所以今天我們看到有些不合理的狀況所以我們去做這樣的相關的調整所以我就特別要感謝內政部不過這個調整的弧度好像似乎有蠻大的一些討論空間也有個直轄市的議員的助理是24萬"},{"start":19506.26,"end":19527.892,"text":"內政部的版本是提高到30萬那一般縣市的議員的助理是多少8萬那我們現在把它調高變成14萬對不對原因有是差了3倍嘛24比8嘛就1比3嘛那現在是變成1比2不到啦應該是不到啦齁那你們覺得這樣的調整是正確嗎"},{"start":19530.944,"end":19558.067,"text":"報告委員我想我們做這樣的調整也經過參考其他的因素來設算了包括說我們這個人數的這個變動我們刪除上限規定下限這個大家一起來做這個通販現場是根據什麼樣的變動去做這樣的調整我覺得過去就已經很奇怪不合理的一個狀態了怎麼私家市就是24萬一般縣市就是8萬那現在你們是又根據什麼去調到30萬然後一般縣市是4萬"},{"start":19559.668,"end":19571.515,"text":"一般當然我們會考量到他這個要去併顧的人數這是一個另外就是說這個之下是跟這個地方的這個薪資水準等等這些都會做一個考量"},{"start":19573.12,"end":19588.97,"text":"但是還有一個因素當然也要考慮到這個地方的財政,大概這些因素都會考量財政。過去,難道過去沒有考慮到地方的財政,也一定會有嘛對不對?過去為什麼是1比3,現在為什麼是1比2,為什麼不能再高一點?"},{"start":19590.121,"end":19613.244,"text":"這讓他真正到1比1比2這個時間上比如說幾十年前這個直轄市的這個薪酬水準跟現在我的時間到不是不是好沒關係這個很多戲我們在討論吼那你內政部的修法有一個版本是原住民區啦共有55個啊多有服務員較大啦吼那基於該村里受限於地理環境因素然後服務區你需要耗費更多的交通在內的相關成本"},{"start":19613.765,"end":19623.821,"text":"所以你針對這個原住民地區之鄉鎮及自家市原住民區齁其村里事務會每月再增加百分之十嘛對不對這個是根據什麼"},{"start":19625.229,"end":19652.727,"text":"主要當然是考量到這個原住民區啦因為的確它幅員也比較大交通也比較不便啦也不像說我們這個區域當然交通會比較方便一點另外就是說在山區它這個居住的都比較散居嘛所以你要服務一個人可能他的這個距離就會比較遠一點為什麼只有針對原住民區?像我們一般縣市的像簡單講我講一個古坑鄉啦草嶺村你知道那個幅員有多大嗎?"},{"start":19654.328,"end":19672.923,"text":"在偏遠或邊鄉還是過去有我們內政部去認定的一般的平起鄉鎮其實那些村里長他要照顧的服務員也不亞於原住民區耶這個為什麼沒有納入在參考裡面而且現在的村里長因為有長照所以他們還要辦理什麼長照認知 對不起長照資源認證還有相關的一些授證"},{"start":19680.217,"end":19701.62,"text":"我要表達說你們可以看到這一塊為什麼另外那塊沒有看到因為你如果要做這樣的根據嘛我是提醒你連一般的鄉鎮、湖遠、廣大的、偏遠的你要把它納入在這次的討論中才有道理啦我剛剛是用議員的助理來比喻給你聽那我現在這個也是你內政部自己的提案喔"},{"start":19702.915,"end":19719.198,"text":"那不能只有單純從這一個原住民區去做修正去做思考而已要嘛就全部一次通人只要是輔演廣大參照你們自己的提案的內容比例上都一樣就比照辦理我覺得這樣才有道理"},{"start":19720.902,"end":19744.686,"text":"我想這個有一些非原住民區的部分,有些當然是也屬於比較偏遠,不過這要看每一個地方的區域特性不太一樣。是啊,那你們有看了嗎?你們有去盤點嗎?你們有去調查嗎?我隨便都可以找幾個鄉鎮來對比原住民區,你們現在要給他每日增加百分之十的事務費的這樣的一個比例喔。"},{"start":19746.485,"end":19759.599,"text":"如果要討論到這個可能就是要去比照這個有一些單位會去界定偏遠地區的界定定義有一些比較偏遠可能也跟原住民區是一樣的"},{"start":19760.698,"end":19780.596,"text":"不是不是不是不是對對對我是給市長做一個參考因為時間到了好不好我是覺得這個東西可能你們要這個範圍啦齁一樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個這樣的廣大的胡言的部分這樣的村里長原住民你們給他百分之十的增加似乎會其他你不給他們"},{"start":19781.296,"end":19782.797,"text":"主席有請司長請司長委員好"},{"start":19807.797,"end":19822.374,"text":"剛剛市長在回答有講到我們目前這個對於直轄市縣市議員聘用公費助理有多少年沒調整過24年你知道這24年當中軍公教待遇調整了多少次"},{"start":19825.435,"end":19839.019,"text":"我看到數字是6次勞工基本薪資你知道調整多少次18次可是只有這個地方民意代表助理費用20年來都沒有調整24年沒有調整"},{"start":19844.079,"end":19860.919,"text":"今天我覺得很高興就是終於大家願意去面對這個問題因為我今天跟大家講一件事情過去要去調整誰的那個民意代表的一些助理費用都會有一些雜音但今天很好是因為是立法委員我們立法院草野各黨"},{"start":19862.02,"end":19887.478,"text":"大概都有蠻一致希望能夠調整所以基本上先講一件事情這些是我們看到實際上在地方各個議員他們這麼24年沒有調整助理費之下而業務不斷的加大繁重加上那個物價不斷的調高的各種因素好像這樣其實是有點增加目前地方民代的壓力甚至減少了他們的服務的品質"},{"start":19888.399,"end":19916.931,"text":"所以這個我覺得今天內政部也願意來去這個開始配合我們大家一起來研擬去調整他們的相關的一些金額我覺得是一個好的方向但有一件事情其實我們還認同剛剛劉建國這個委員剛剛講的就是說因為我之前其實有一段時間是在全台徒步環島所以我之前工作台北市議員但因為在全台徒步環島的時候我就有開始認知到一件事情"},{"start":19917.771,"end":19940.011,"text":"台灣的縣市服務員真的是遼闊然後我發現各地方的非直轄市縣市議員他有一些很重要的一些困擾一個很大的辛苦就是在我們過去把直轄市跟非直轄市這個議員的助理的補助只設定為三分之一嘛非直轄市對不對"},{"start":19942.001,"end":19967.083,"text":"這設定其實我會來走實際走一個我覺得其實是蠻不合理的施展你覺得為什麼會覺得不合理你猜猜看為什麼覺得不合理因為最主要是在非直轄市的部分因為畢竟它的這個地理環境不太一樣因為它會非常廣泛那而且地方在服務的時候其實有很多地方先生我這樣考你啦"},{"start":19968.615,"end":19976.202,"text":"非直轄市我舉個例子你知道縣市面積來看前三大這個最大的縣市的面積是哪三個縣市"},{"start":19980.1,"end":20002.611,"text":"花蓮南侯跟台東有山區的都會比較多那你知道齁對那種幅員遼闊的這些行政區域地方的民代就非直轄市的議員他光有一樣東西就很可觀了什麼東西你知道嗎有一樣錢就花得很可觀了混沙洗錢對他也花得很可觀"},{"start":20004.082,"end":20005.342,"text":"上山下海"},{"start":20020.828,"end":20046.729,"text":"直轄市跟非直轄市在過去定為只有三分之一但是當然以人口來講的話直轄市因為人口密集嘛服務的人數來講的話可能會比較多嘛對不對但是你如果考量到說非直轄市他的議員數額也比較少那加上他的服務的那個面積非常遼闊我是蠻認同劉建國委員剛剛講我覺得這三分之一的這個比例設計是不合理的"},{"start":20047.591,"end":20065.644,"text":"二分之一坦白講我都覺得未必合理啦可是你要怎麼去調整我覺得應該要去考量到地方因為事實上如果這些我們地方的縣市議員他如果說今天你在24年不調整你某種程度是變相的來去減少他們服務地方的能量"},{"start":20066.244,"end":20080.297,"text":"而在各個地方來講,其實民代的一個重要性,我到台北市議員是有時候就是幫政府能夠更快速的去探取民意,然後幫人民解決一些政府可能看不到的問題。"},{"start":20081.238,"end":20104.768,"text":"所以這個服務能量是很重要的所以我真的也是拜託內政部這邊能夠從善如流啦就是說第一個整體來講大家經費要增加第二個我覺得比例的合理性應該要把非直轄縣市的這種遼闊的面積跟他的所謂的那個議員的總額數比較少這些因素都考量進去坦白講我覺得二分之一都已經很勉強了啦"},{"start":20106.308,"end":20121.454,"text":"我都不認為是很合理,但是希望內政部這部分可以納入考慮。以上。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝我們羅志強委員的執行,謝謝。那下一位我們李燕秀委員。好,謝謝。謝謝專委,我可不可以請次長。好,請次長。"},{"start":20129.554,"end":20148.36,"text":"市長辛苦了我覺得草也有共識針對這個兩個法案要調整那看起來我們內政部這邊方向也是正面的看待但大家有很多不同的版本怎麼樣取得一個共識但是我一直認為如果因為好不容易20年"},{"start":20149.46,"end":20163.93,"text":"要調好好的調無論是明代的這個助理的費用或者是里長的春節慰問金還有相關其他費用我覺得要好好討論因為下一次我們再有機會討論我不知道是幾十年以後可能我們大家都已經不在這邊"},{"start":20165.531,"end":20181.823,"text":"但是我覺得既然要調我們就好好的面對所有的問題好好的來調整打開我們現在里長的工作繁重剛才結委員已經有講了無論偏鄉光是油錢其實我們中央或地方其實給里長的業務其實從來沒有減少過包括我們打開全國法規資料庫"},{"start":20186.707,"end":20191.25,"text":"打關鍵慶打里長兩個字我們就可以看到跳出119個法規內容扣掉應該廢紙的這個法規裡面也還有七八十筆法規裡面要求里長應該配合的業務無論是長照無論是最近我們在講的社會安全網的議題還有包括掌握地方老人的狀況包括類似像地震過後颱風之後我們第一線要去評估災害損失"},{"start":20216.209,"end":20233.252,"text":"雖然公務人員那個都是長官來但是第一線要掌握地方狀況我想次長你非常清楚都是找里長社會安全網要去抓這些脆弱家庭瞭解地方的狀況所以我們現在給里長的所謂的事務補助費也好我們現在當然多給一個春節慰問金但是是不是足以"},{"start":20244.734,"end":20255.121,"text":"所以代表就是說他的付出跟他的他所得到的一些肯定我覺得是不是足夠啦我覺得我們應該朝向這個層面去思考去看待我們今天調整這樣子的法案當然我們都知道城鄉差距包括六都的狀況"},{"start":20263.246,"end":20288.407,"text":"其實地方財源不宜所以你剛才講到說不能加太多加太多的話地方財源會有問題但是我覺得我們今天回過這個法案來去看的話我覺得就是應該就事論事到底應該怎麼去調整他是一個他的工作我們應該給予他的無論是春節慰問金還有沒有額外的比如說郵費其他的我們應該討論所以我個人認為這一筆費用無論我們要怎麼調整"},{"start":20292.29,"end":20292.41,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20310.633,"end":20310.773,"text":"議員．助理費用"},{"start":20327.747,"end":20342.834,"text":"議員的助理我當過當了20幾年民意代表我有20年的時間都是當市議員所以我相信在立法院很多很多立委前身都是前面那份工作都是市議員所以助理的費用包括在自治條例裡面我們"},{"start":20343.234,"end":20343.254,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":20365.1,"end":20365.26,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":20380.896,"end":20393.223,"text":"就是他們常常工作的時間非常長配合地方的需求配合地方發生狀況助理常常在第一線處理所以我覺得無論是加班費包括職災職業災害的補償等等職業災害的準備等等還有資遣費等等"},{"start":20396.104,"end":20396.124,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":20416.463,"end":20436.802,"text":"法案中當中我的一些建議也希望次長可以去做這方面的思考這一次我們不好好處理這些議題下次再處理可能又是20年12年之後所以我覺得我們應該趁這一次把所有朝野黨派的版本跟意見我們希望朝委這邊有機會跟次長這邊跟內政部做更完整的考量跟考慮"},{"start":20438.103,"end":20449.586,"text":"謝謝委員,我想委員剛剛指教都非常的正確啦吼那基本上我們也都從這方面來在著述這一次的修法重點也都包括剛剛委員指教謝謝,謝謝市長好謝謝我們李恩秀委員的資訊那下一位曾政權"},{"start":20456.58,"end":20476.19,"text":"鄭振全委員不在 傅坤祺委員不在賴世保委員不在 蔡奕宜委員不在 林子英委員不在 王鴻薇委員不在"},{"start":20486.826,"end":20508.824,"text":"那登記發言的委員除不在場之外﹖其已經與發言完畢﹖審打結束那委員﹖黃珊珊﹖鍾嘉斌﹖邱振金﹖邱志偉﹖張嘉靖﹖黃仁﹖所提書面執行列入記錄﹖刊登公報"},{"start":20510.316,"end":20531.509,"text":"事面執行及未答覆部分請相關單位以一週內以事面答覆並互資本會報告委員會現在進行法院審查請先讀討論事項所有的版本及條文"},{"start":20534.083,"end":20559.779,"text":"修正動議互待結議請一併先讀先讀完畢後再進行協商第三條委員徐欣盈等19人提案第一項第6款第9款後段增訂及主管植物加擠文字區域通線型條文第5條委員陳盈等17人提案第三項後段增訂原住民的地方民意代表"},{"start":20561.351,"end":20585.303,"text":"支為民服務費最高為1.5倍其餘同線型條文委員陳素月等22人提案修正副表請參閱書面第6條委員楊瓊英等20人提案第一項同線型條文第二項修正為持霞市議會縣市議會應每年編列每一議員以低數額之助理補助費但公費助理每人每月之領金額最多不得超過新台幣8萬元縣市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣8萬元"},{"start":20586.383,"end":20610.184,"text":"公費助理適用勞動基準法之規定其加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休金之雇主負擔部分勞工職業災害保險費由議會編列預算編列經費支應之並得比照均公教人員年終工作獎金佐給春節慰勞金增訂第三項前項薪資補助費用總額及前項一勞動基準法所規定之相關費用總額議會得比照均公教人員待遇調整比例調整之"},{"start":20610.945,"end":20628.443,"text":"委員黃婕等22人提案。第6條指向市議會議員及縣市議會議員的拼用公費助理人數由各議會自定與議員同進退其工作內容由議員與公費助理商定之。前線公費助理補助費用總額指向市議會議員每人每月新台幣24萬元但公費助理人數未超過二人者"},{"start":20629.063,"end":20653.605,"text":"每人每月支領金額﹖最多不得超過新台幣8萬元﹖新市議會議員每人每月新台幣8萬元﹖補助費用總額議會得綜合考量消費者物價指數漲幅﹖軍公教員工單一條幅及地方財政狀況調整公路助理一期其依法由僱主負擔至加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費及勞工退休金等費用由議會編列經費支應之並得比照軍公教員員年終工作獎金卓給春節慰勞金"},{"start":20655.146,"end":20674.105,"text":"委員吳珮儀等20人委員呂玉玲等19人提案第6條指向市議會議員每人拼用公費助理至少6人縣市議會議員每人拼用公費助理至少2人公費助理均與議員同進退請向公費助理薪資補助費用總額指向市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣36萬元縣市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣16萬元"},{"start":20675.186,"end":20698.392,"text":"其中聘用部分時間工作供費助理之費用數額不得超過助理費用總額二分之一供費助理適用勞動基準法規定其勞工保險費全民健康保險費及勞工退休金支雇主負擔部分均由議會編列經費支應支加班費資遣費及職業災害補償等補助費用總額直下市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣6萬元縣市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣2萬元"},{"start":20699.372,"end":20714.001,"text":"並得比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金捉給春節慰勞金第二項新制補助費用總容及錢下降頒費此前配給職業災難補償等補助費用總容指向市縣市議會得比照軍公教人員待遇調整比例調整支委員鄭天才等19人提案"},{"start":20714.441,"end":20715.081,"text":"修正草案等37案"},{"start":20730.086,"end":20756.92,"text":"第三項為第二項公費助理補助費總額一會因比照軍公教委員待遇調整比例調整之第四項同委員吳佩儀等20人提案第三項委員羅志強等25人提案第一項同委員鄭天才等19人提案第一項第二項修正為先是議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣20萬元第三項後段修正為先是議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣4萬元其餘同委員吳佩儀等20人提案委員盧美琳等18人提案"},{"start":20757.62,"end":20787.26,"text":"第一項公費助理人數分別修正為至少4人及至少2人第二項金額分別修正為36萬元10萬元及16萬元後段並增訂及加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休經濟雇主負擔部分等文字增訂第三項前項議員公費助理薪資補助費用總額及加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休經濟雇主負擔部分此項是縣市議會的比較均公交人員待遇調整比例調整之其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20788.661,"end":20804.101,"text":"委員吳思耀等17議員提案．致詳市議會縣市議會得邊緣醫院助理補助費．補助各議員聘用助理．助理補助費總額致詳市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣30萬元．縣市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣20萬元．但全國公務人員"},{"start":20804.682,"end":20820.818,"text":"各種加緊、年度通案調整、使用比照期通案條幅調整。調整後助理補助費總額及施行歷期由內政部公告之。以前線助理補助費偏用之助理之下,市議會議員女人應至少偏用6人,縣市議會議員女人應至少偏用4人均與議員同進退。"},{"start":20822.179,"end":20843.233,"text":"前向助理施用勞動基準法之規定其相關費用由議會編列經費支應之助理加班費不休假加班費資遣費及職債補償費等費用不得超過第一項規定總額20%助理並得比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金走給春節慰勞金議會應就第一項助理補助費總額及前向助理施用勞動基準法相關費用之支出請行建立內部控制制度"},{"start":20844.133,"end":20872.26,"text":"委員李博毅等17人提案。第一項公費助理人數分別修正為6人至10人及2人至6人其餘同現行條文第一項。信用條文第二項後段已列第4項並修正為公費助理適用勞動基準法之規定其包含加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費雇主負擔部分及勞工退休金雇主提撥等相關費用由應會另編列經費指引之不列入第二項補助費用之計算並得比照軍工教育員年終工作獎金佐給春節慰勞金"},{"start":20873.26,"end":20888.509,"text":"增訂第3項第5項分別為第一項公費助理得偏用部分公使人員其人數薪資不得超過公費助理總人數補助費用之半數前項加班費支給指向市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣5萬元縣市議會議員每人不得超過新台幣2萬元"},{"start":20889.71,"end":20905.858,"text":"委員徐曉欣等28人提案．第1項．第4項同委員吳佩儀等20人提案．這第1項．第4項．第2項同委員鄭天才等19人提案．第4項．第2項．前項公費助理薪資補助費用總額一勞動基準法所規定之相關費用均由指辖事及先知議會編列予算指引之"},{"start":20906.278,"end":20924.383,"text":"其中聘用部分是實踐工作供費助理致費用數額不得超過補助費用總額二分之一第5項為直向市議會及縣市議會以每年編列預算補助供費助理實施健康檢查及文康活動費用其對象項目方法標準及其他應徵型事項由議會令定制自中華民國全年全月全日施行"},{"start":20925.083,"end":20951.236,"text":"委員莊玉雄等18人提案第一項同委員吳佩儀等20人提案第一項第二項中段維持信息條文之但公費助理名人每月支領金額最多不得超過清台幣8萬元文字其餘同委員吳佩儀等20人提案之第二項增訂第三項第四項分別為公費助理適用勞動基準法之規定其由僱主負擔之勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工職業災害保險費及勞工退休金由議會編列清費之因之並得比照顧軍公教人員凝重工作獎金酌給春節慰勞金"},{"start":20952.897,"end":20973.839,"text":"第二項公費助力補助費用總額及錢箱費用之瑕疵性限制議會的比照軍公教人員待遇條幅及地方財政狀況調整之委員林思明等26人提案第一項同委員羅美玲等18人提案之第一項第二項金額分別修正為24萬元12萬元後代修正為不得超過補助費用總額三分之一其餘同委員吳佩等20人提案之第二項"},{"start":20974.64,"end":20991.954,"text":"增訂第三項指向市議會議員及縣市議會議員以按月將公費助理補助費用支領用助理姓名及分別支領之數據報議會備查。新型條文第二項互單以列第四項並增訂加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費及勞工退休金顧主負擔部分文字。"},{"start":20992.874,"end":21018.791,"text":"委員委員會等17人提案第一項修正為先是議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣12萬元第二項聘用助理人數分別修正為4人及2人其餘同委員吳佩儀等20人提案之第一項第二項曾定第三項第四項前項助理適用勞動基準法之規定其勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休準備金加班費不休假加班費慈善費及職災補償費等關於法定應由雇主負擔費用由議會"},{"start":21019.631,"end":21045.716,"text":"不超過第1項規定總額20%內編列預算支援支﹑並得以索領補助費支額度比照軍公教人員年中工作獎金卓給春節慰勞金。議會應就各委員關於第1項及第2項助理補助費總額與分配情形﹑助理聘用關係及第3項阻力各項費用支支援情形及零零不控制制度。委員盧修一等19人提案。第1項同委員盧美玲提案第1項。第2、3、4項同委員盧佩一等20人提案之第2、3、4項。"},{"start":21047.316,"end":21072.65,"text":"委員參議19人提案第一項二人至四人修正為一定人數第二項前段修正為職下市議會、縣市議會以免於編列與議員以低數額之公費助理費及其辦公事務預算相關費用後增訂其加班費、勞工保險費、全民健康保險費、勞工退休金之雇主負擔部分、勞工職業災害保險等文字其與同縣型條文之第一二項增訂第三項前項公費助理費總額"},{"start":21074.231,"end":21089.177,"text":"議會得綜合考量社會薪資成長比例與軍公教員工待遇條幅及地方財政狀況調整委員范雲等17人提案,第一項同委員盧敏玲等18案提案之第一項第二項金額分別修正為30萬元,12萬元,其餘同委員林思敏等提案之第二項"},{"start":21090.598,"end":21107.854,"text":"信息條文第二項後段以列第三項並增訂包含加班費勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休金支雇主負擔部分勞工職業災害保險費文字增訂第四項補助費用總額得由議會總統考量消費者物價指數漲幅軍公教員工待遇條幅及地方財政狀況調整"},{"start":21109.415,"end":21130.925,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人提案,第一項同委員吳佩儀等20人提案至第1項,第二項同委員盧美玲等18人提案至第2項,第三項同委員盧美玲等18人提案至第3項,並著作文字修正。委員鍾嘉斌等27人提案,第一項第二項修正為,此下市議會議員及縣市議會議員每人得聘用公費助理至少4人,公費助理均與議員同進退。"},{"start":21132.165,"end":21154.504,"text":"前向公費助理補助費用總額每人每月不得超過新台幣24萬元其中聘用部分時間工作公費助理之費用數額不得超過補助費用總額二分之一。憲警條文第二項後段一列第三項委員陳穎等17人提案修正為直轄市議會議員與縣市議會議員得聘用公費助理公費助理均與議員同進隊聘用人數由議會定之"},{"start":21155.044,"end":21179.298,"text":"前項公費助理補助費用總額及依照《勞動期準法》相關費用均由議會編列預算支援制並得比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金酌給春節慰勞金委員武麗華等17人提案第一項同性情條文第二項修正為直下市議會新市議會應每年編列每億元抵抵數額之公費助理費直下市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣32萬元現市議員每人每月不得超過新台幣16萬元"},{"start":21180.459,"end":21204.165,"text":"並得於中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數﹐累計成長率達政府51%﹐該成長率調整之。但工業助理每人每月支援金額不得超回現台幣8萬元﹐工費助理適用勞動基準法之規定﹐其加班費﹐勞工保險費﹐全民健康保險費﹐勞工退休金之雇主負擔部分﹐勞工職業災害保險費﹐由議會編列經費支應之﹐並得比照軍公教委員員出工作獎金﹐作給春節慰勞金﹐"},{"start":21205.285,"end":21233.901,"text":"委員稱溯月等21人提案第一項第三項同委員林思敏等提案之第一項第三項第二項金額分別修正為30萬元12萬元其餘同委員林思敏等提案之第二項參考第4項第二項公費助理費總額議會應考量社會薪資成長比例消費者物價指數及軍工教育員工待遇條幅一併調整之其後能兩年調整一次由議會參考中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率"},{"start":21234.321,"end":21253.83,"text":"或消費者物價指數累計成長率達5%及公告調整值但成長率為0或複數時不予調整委員徐欣穎等19人提案第二項縣市議會議員委員每月不得超過新產品8萬元修正為15萬元其餘同縣刑條文委員洪生翰等16人提案同委員蔡玉等19人提案"},{"start":21254.81,"end":21279.246,"text":"委員李燕秀等20人提案。第6條直轄市議會議員每人得聘用公費助理至少6人。縣市議會議員每人得聘用公費助理至少2人。公費助理均與議員同進退,並優先禁用身心障礙者及中高齡者。前章公費助理薪資補助費用總額直轄市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣36萬元加班費自遣費及職業災害補償等補助費用總額每人每月不得超過新台幣6萬元"},{"start":21280.246,"end":21306.798,"text":"像是議會議員、薪資補助費用總額每人每月不得超過新台幣16萬元加班費、資遣費及職業災害補償等補助費用總額每人每月不得超過新台幣2萬元聘用部分時間工作之公費助理﹐該費用數額不得超過薪資補助費用總額二分之一公費助理﹐適用勞動基準法之規定﹐其勞工保險費均用增加保險費及雇主為勞工負擔提繳至退休金部分由議會編列經費支援之並得比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金"},{"start":21308.158,"end":21325.117,"text":"左給村里長事務補助費用總額加班費之前非其職業災害補償等補助費用總額,亦會得考量基本薪資成長比例,均公教人員單一調整比例及地方財政狀況狀況考量後調整。委員黃建斌等17年提案,第二項金額分別修正為36萬元及12萬元,其餘同委員吳珮儀等20年提案。"},{"start":21328.42,"end":21347.655,"text":"委員．建國等16人提案。第1項修正為先是議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣26萬元。第2項修正為以前向助理補助費用支助理致殺。先是議會議員每人得費用6人至8人。先是議會議員每人得費用5人至7人。均與議員同進退,其餘同委員無配意等20人提案。"},{"start":21348.295,"end":21375.625,"text":"委員鄭正琴等18人提案第二項金額分別修正為36萬元及12萬元其餘同委員林思敏等26人提案委員陳培余等21人提案第1項同委員盧美林等18人提案之第1項第二項金額分別修正為36萬元及16萬元其餘同先進條文第二項前段第二項後段已列第3項增訂第4項第二項供費助理補助費用總額及前項費用之下事項是議會的綜合考量均公證人員待遇條"},{"start":21376.945,"end":21403.791,"text":"條幅及地方財政狀況條整之。委員王毓民等16人提案。第二項金額分別修正為36萬元及12萬元。第三項一列第二項後段區域統委員黃建斌等17人提案。第7條委員鄭天才等19人提案。第一項同性性條文第一項第二項後段修正為支應其健康檢查費保險費春節慰問金及為民服務費其標準比照鄉鎮市民代表會代表其同性性條文第二項"},{"start":21404.691,"end":21422.101,"text":"第三項修正為中央主管及關於辦理村里長團體保險及每一倍保險人之保險金額為新台幣1200萬元及範圍繳費方式其成及附基準權利與義務辦理方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之信心條文第四項刪除"},{"start":21422.961,"end":21447.392,"text":"委員高經宋梅等29人提案第一項第4項第5項同性情條文之第一三四項第二項修正為村里長因職務關係因而鄉鎮市區公所分別編列下列之預算一保險費二健康檢查費三春節慰勞金增訂第三項前項健康檢查費及標準均比照地方民意代表前項春節慰勞金及標準均比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金佐給"},{"start":21449.185,"end":21467.045,"text":"徵定第6項,第一項之村里長事務補助費而度至中華民國114年,其每4年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數,較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率高高調整之,但成長率為零或負數時不予調整"},{"start":21468.206,"end":21483.645,"text":"委員．新一等19人提案．第1項後段增訂但願駐民族地區之村里每月新台幣5萬5千元．第2項增訂村級務務金儲物考察費等文字．第3項第4項之保險金額提高為新台幣1千萬元以上．其餘通信息條文"},{"start":21484.366,"end":21500.995,"text":"委員徐宇珍等16人提案。第二項修正為村里長事務關心應由鄉鎮市區公所的分別編列預算支援其保險費、健康檢查費、充結衛生金及衛生服務費及標準均比照地方民意代表其如同信息條文"},{"start":21502.176,"end":21522.422,"text":"委員稱等17人提案第二項同委員需徵等16人提案第二項並逐座完之修正增訂第5項第二項村里長春節慰勞金每人每年不得超過1.5個月事務補助費外面服務費每人每月不得超過新台幣3000元能住民族地區之村里長每人每月不得超過新台幣4500元其餘通信息條文"},{"start":21525.043,"end":21552.24,"text":"委員齊銘等18人提案第一項後段增訂年中75000元為春節慰勞金區域投信金條文委員王美惠等21人提案第一項後段增訂春節慰勞金新台幣75000元增訂第二項牆上事務補助費與春節慰勞金因每次年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布之最新一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長月公告調整之"},{"start":21552.7,"end":21562.635,"text":"但成長率為零或複數時不予調整。現行條文第234項下次定義委員黃建斌等17人提案同委員高金素梅等29人提案"},{"start":21563.84,"end":21584.188,"text":"增訂第7條之一委員陳昌明等18人提案。第7條之一地方民意代表計村里長任職滿20年且年滿65歲退職應發給退職金其認定標準計算方式與生理辦法由中央主管機關訂定。委員黃建豪等17人提案。山竹前端地方民意代表集等文字其餘同委員陳昌明等18人提案。"},{"start":21586.38,"end":21605.28,"text":"第8條委員高金素梅等22人提案第一項同性型條文增訂第234項除第一項之規定外應編列預算補助應區域服務員遼闊地理環境交通狀況氣候條件等因素而衍生之費用及實施辦法標準及其他應遵行之事項由中央主管機關令定之"},{"start":21605.8,"end":21626.729,"text":"前項補助之額度之中華民國114年起每2年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整之其一年消費者物價指數成長率公告調整之但成長率為零或複數時不予調整第二項是補助費用其經費由中央主管機關年度編列預算補助地方政府之一之"},{"start":21627.569,"end":21646.786,"text":"第9條委員鄭天才等19人提案後段增訂第7條第三項之經費由中央主管機關按年度編列預算支援之其與同線型條文委員盧憲英等19人提案第一項同線型條文增訂第二項本條例第7條第二項春節運營經期出國考察費增年度經費由中央主管機關編列預算補助之"},{"start":21648.507,"end":21661.005,"text":"第10條委員鄭天才等19人提案增訂第二項本條例第6條第7條第三項及第4項之規定自中華民國全年全月全日起施行其餘頭現行條文修正動議一"},{"start":21663.929,"end":21684.643,"text":"第7條增加第三項及第4項第一項春節慰問金系屬政府之贈予以所得稅法第4條第一項第17款規定可免納所得稅第一項春節慰問金其經費由中央主管機關年度編列預算補助地方政府致應之經同委員王美惠等20人提案"},{"start":21686.604,"end":21715.349,"text":"提案人為張志倫等3人。修正動議2第6條此下是議會議員每人聘用公費助理至少6人。現是議會議員每人聘用公費助理至少4人。公費助理經與議員同進退。前上公費助理費用總額此下是議會議員每人每月新台幣30萬元。現是議會議員每人每月新台幣18萬元。但全國公務員由各種加緊年度通案調整時應按通案條幅調整調整後製費用總額及施行日期有業政部公告之"},{"start":21715.849,"end":21741.264,"text":"公費助理費用及其一勞動基準法所規定之相關費用均為因會編列預算支援之並得比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金佐給春節慰勞金第7條增訂第5項村里長由鄉鎮市居公所參照軍公教人員年終工作獎金編列預算法給春節慰勞金其數額以新台幣5萬元為基準計算之其餘同現行條文"},{"start":21743.177,"end":21759.719,"text":"第10條後段增加113年全月全日修正至第6條及第7條自114年1月1日施行外等文字其餘同性型條文提案人委員蘇巧慧等3人"},{"start":21763.03,"end":21790.572,"text":"修正動議3第6條 持下市議會、縣市議會的編列議員助理補助費補助各議員聘用助理 助理補助費總額 持下市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣30萬元 縣市議會議員每人每月不得超過新台幣14萬元 並依予全國公務人員各種家計程度通案調整時 比照其通案調整幅度調整 調整後之助理補助費總額及實施日期援助不公告之 以傾向助理補助費補助聘用之助理"},{"start":21791.272,"end":21808.866,"text":"指查是議會議員每人要至少騙人7人像是議會議員每人要至少騙人3人均與議員同進退強項助理適用勞動基準法之規定其勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休準備金加班費不休假加班費資遣費及職業災害補償等依法令應由雇主負擔"},{"start":21810.087,"end":21830.34,"text":"費用部分由議會於不超過第一項規定總額20%內編列預算支援之並得以索領補助費之額度﹐比照軍工交援、農中工作獎金逐給春節慰勞金。議會應就各議員有關第一項、第二項助理補助費總額與分配請行助理偏要關係及第三項所列各項費用之支援請行經理內部控制制度。"},{"start":21836.226,"end":21852.851,"text":"第7條 第一項後段增訂 於原住民族地區之村里每月再增加10%並應由全國公務人員各種加緊年度通案調整時比照其通案調整、幅度調整、調整後之事務補助費總額及實施日期由內政部公告之"},{"start":21855.543,"end":21884.754,"text":"增訂第5項村里長由鄉鎮市區公所參照軍公教育委員年終工作獎金發給規定編列預算發給春節未落金其數額以新台幣五萬元為基準計算之其餘同現行條文第10條後段增訂一百十後段修正為一百十一年五月四日修正公布條文自一百十一年十二月二十五日施行一百十三年圈月圈日修正之條文自一百十四年一月一日施行"},{"start":21886.286,"end":21895.972,"text":"其餘同線型條文令修正第5條附表提案人委員吳啟明等6人修正動議4"},{"start":21898.328,"end":21925.07,"text":"第7條第一項後段增定與原住民族地區之村里每月再增加10%增定第5項村里長由縣市鄉鎮市區公所參照軍公教育員年中工作獎金發給規定並列預算發給春節慰勞金其數額以新台幣五萬元為基準計算之其餘通現行條文第10條後段修正同委員務其名等所提修正動議提案人王美惠等4人"},{"start":21927.409,"end":21953.039,"text":"修正動議五第三條第一項第九款後段增訂及主管加擠等文字其餘同線性條文第七條第一項後段增訂於偏遠地區鄉鎮市區超高齡鄉鎮市區及原住民族地區之村里每月再增加百分之十增訂第五項村里長由鄉鎮市區公所參照軍工教育人員中工作獎金發給"},{"start":21954.26,"end":21964.2,"text":"規定編列預算方有穿截未落經其數額以現在比5萬元為基準計算之其餘通信請條文提案人委員王美惠等4人修正動議6"},{"start":21966.499,"end":21982.6,"text":"第6條同委員黃建斌等17議員提案並著作文字修正第7條第一項後段增訂單元住民族地區之村里每月新台幣5萬5千元增訂第二項前項事務補助費於中央處計機"},{"start":21985.123,"end":22011.303,"text":"關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達增負20%應予調整其調整比率由內政部考量國家經濟環境政府財政定制或至少每2年應予檢討原第二項已列第三項後段修改修正為支應其保險費應並由中央編列預算補助支應其健康檢查費春節慰問及每年一次出國考察費及為民服務費其標準均比照地方民意代表"},{"start":22012.744,"end":22022.374,"text":"現行條案第三四項一列第四五項徵定第七條之一同委員黃建豪等17年提案並著作文字修正"},{"start":22023.396,"end":22043.368,"text":"第9條後端增訂第7條第二項之調整比率差額及第7條第三項春節未溫金每年一次出國考察費及為民服務費其經費的中央主管機關按年度編列預算補助地方政府致應之其餘同線型條文提案人委員牛許廷等4人"},{"start":22045.896,"end":22070.909,"text":"修正動議7 第6條 直下市議會縣市議會的編列議員助理補助費補助各議員聘用助理 前項公費助理補助費用總額起 直下市議會議員每人每一步的超過新台幣30萬元 縣市議會議員每人每一步的超過新台幣16萬元 兵役與全國公務員員各種家籍年度通案調整時 比照幅度調整調整後至總額及實施日期內政部公告之 前項助理補助"},{"start":22071.409,"end":22094.258,"text":"被補助之偏要助理之下是議會委員每人至少偏要6人,現是議會委員每人至少偏要2人,均與一員同進退。強項助理施用《勞動基準法》之規定其勞工保險內全面健康保險費、勞工退休準備金加班費、自遣費及職業災害補償等依法列案的雇主負擔費用部分由議會編列經費支援之,並得比照軍工教人員年終工作獎金酌給春節慰勞金。"},{"start":22095.718,"end":22125.007,"text":"第7條增訂第5項村里長由鄉鎮市區公所參照軍用匠人民中工作獎金發給規定編列預算發給村級未勞金其數額以地下所列費用為基準計算其餘同性性條文提案人委員丁學忠等3人修正動議8第6條第二項後段增加並因於全國公務員各種加緊年度通案調整時比照期通案調整幅度調整調整後製助理補助費總額及實施日期內政部公告之"},{"start":22126.383,"end":22154.68,"text":"增訂第6項一會應就各議員有關第二項第三項助理補助費總額與分配情形助理偏用關係及第4項所列各項費用之指引情形建立內部控制制度其餘同委員李伯義等17人提案提案人委員李伯義等4人修正動議9第6條第一項增加鄉鎮市及直轄市原住民區等文字並修正金額為"},{"start":22157.033,"end":22182.708,"text":"鄉鎮市及直轄市原住民代表會﹐代表每人每月不得超過新台幣6萬元第二項﹐拼用人數修正為6人及3人﹐並增加鄉鎮市及直轄市原住民區代表會﹐代表應至少拼用2人﹐居委員或代表同進退第4項﹐增加代表會及代表等文字﹐其餘同委員王美惠等17人提案"},{"start":22185.526,"end":22205.48,"text":"第7條同委員王美惠等所提修正動議4提案人委員王美惠等4人修正動議時第5條修正副表其餘同線型條文提案人委員王美惠等5人附帶決議"},{"start":22208.368,"end":22228,"text":"地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案完成修法施行後﹐各地方政府因此所增加之人事支出﹐以本條例第9條規定由地方自治團體編列預算辦理之﹐修法內容雖屬落實民意政治地方自治所必要﹐但議事必更使地方財政捉襟見肘﹐"},{"start":22229.141,"end":22229.281,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":22259.342,"end":22260.083,"text":"還有還有修正動議11第5條"},{"start":22281.212,"end":22298.761,"text":"增訂第3項第一項交通補助費只因服務區域幅員遼闊地理環境交通狀況氣候條件而衍生之費用交通補助費之實施辦法標準及其他應遵行之事項由中央主管機關令定之"},{"start":22299.401,"end":22321.043,"text":"交通補助費制額度至中華民國114年期每二年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布至最近一年消費者物價指數較前次調整至前一年消費者物價指數成長率公告調整至但成長率為0或負數時不予調整交通補助費及經費由中央主管機關編列預算補助地方政府支應之"},{"start":22324.195,"end":22351.95,"text":"第6條第二項後段增訂但因為全國公務人員各種加緊年度通案調整時比照期通案調整幅度調整調整後之助理補助費總額及實施日期由內政部公告之第7條第一項後段增加於原住民族地區之村里每月增加10%"},{"start":22354.963,"end":22374.41,"text":"第二項修正為村里長因職務關係應由鄉鎮市區公所分別編列下列預算一保險費二健康檢查費三春節慰勞金第三項前項健康檢查費及標準均比照地方民意代表前項春節慰勞金及標準均比照軍公教員年終工作獎金佐給這個是"},{"start":22388.279,"end":22394.712,"text":"第5項後段增加原住民族地區之數而以新台幣5萬5千元為基準計算之"},{"start":22396.013,"end":22424.092,"text":"除第一項事務補助費外因編列預算補助因區域復原遼闊地理環境交通狀況氣候條件等因素而衍生之交通補助費其實是辦法標準及其他應徵性之事項由中央主管機關另定之事務補助費及交通補助費自中華民國114年起每二年調整一次由中央主管機關參照中央主計機關發布之最近一年消費者物價指數照前次調整之前一年消費者物價指數成長率公告調整之但成長率為零或複數時不予調整"},{"start":22425.353,"end":22438.862,"text":"交通補助費支費用及經費由中央主管機關編列日程補助地方政府支援支提案委員委員高金素美等3人宣讀完畢"},{"start":22442.162,"end":22460.389,"text":"好各位委員現在我們進行主條討論我們先從第三條的條文我們委員習新穎委員所提案的是不是請我們習委員來說明一下好不好我們現在討論你所提案的第三條"},{"start":22467.844,"end":22478.055,"text":"本席在第三條特別就提出就是對於這個民意代表我們能夠增加他是能夠有主管加級那因為"},{"start":22480.239,"end":22503.734,"text":"我們不管是直轄市或者是立委我們看到都是有比照這個部會像立委就是比照部會首長那所以我們希望縣市議員還有鄉鎮市民代表他們也能夠有主管加級所以特別針對這個部分本席提這個修正的這個意見"},{"start":22514.694,"end":22519.536,"text":"我的意思是立法委員的待遇他是比照中央部會首長"},{"start":22520.897,"end":22534.472,"text":"對,他的待遇比照中央部會,但是現在縣市議員他並沒有跟縣市政府的一級主管同等所以我加了這個主管家級他的薪資就可以提升上來我的意思是這樣,對謝謝"},{"start":22537.488,"end":22559.629,"text":"來 我們各位委員 針對我們徐委員所提出的第3條有沒有意見好來 請內政部說明一下吧因為我們的印象 直轄市議員跟直轄市的局處長的待遇是一樣的徐委員有這一個問題 是不是請內政部說明一下他這個第6"},{"start":22561.391,"end":22583.885,"text":"六條裡面專業加級及主管加級這個內容內政部的意見是怎樣好的謝謝我們李博弈等一下先讓委員他們充分來發言然後我再請內政部部長統一來回答好不好來還有沒有委員有意見好我們劉建國委員好謝謝"},{"start":22585.357,"end":22607.674,"text":"我想徐委員還是林委員應該我們針對這件事情是我們現在講鄉鎮市民代表民意代表是我們全部中央地方的統稱那這次主要要修的是我們的自家縣市自家市跟一般縣市的議員的助理會主要是這樣但是我們對鄉鎮市民代表我們並沒有去處理到"},{"start":22609.302,"end":22627.622,"text":"我們為什麼要去處理鄉鎮市民代表因為今天我想一般縣市的議員跟自家市的議員他們的這個研究會基本上會隨著跟鄉鎮市民代表的研究會都一樣跟我們的這個公文文條性的過程內一併去做調整"},{"start":22628.629,"end":22649.055,"text":"好,那我們這次只有處理到議員的助理費用但是對鄉鎮市民代表是沒有做任何的處理所以我們才想說是不是給他們一個比照縣市議會的議長鄉鎮市民代表會的主席、副主席一樣給他們一個主管加級"},{"start":22650.509,"end":22665.105,"text":"意思是這樣不然你沒有從研究會裡面的法條去做任何的調整情況之下我們這次要去修可能會有困難那我們有計算過應該是這樣應該是多增加了主管加幾次馬上次長就可以達戶應該是多7000多塊"},{"start":22668.808,"end":22683.216,"text":"我要跟各位報告說以前的鄉鎮市民代表跟現在鄉鎮市民代表他們只領取這個研究會這研究會我記得在2000年剛剛淳勳次長的時候2000年的時候是19470後來後來2000年修正完之後變成49470到現在為止可能來到6萬多如果再加一個7000多塊應該是7萬多"},{"start":22696.015,"end":22702.527,"text":"這是我們對鄉鎮市民代表期待有這樣的一個修正啦好的好謝謝好歡迎"},{"start":22705.822,"end":22705.842,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":22735.422,"end":22735.562,"text":"各位委員"},{"start":22754.656,"end":22781.665,"text":"各位委員還沒意見沒意見我請內政部部長內政部次長來回答一併回答好謝謝好 謝謝委員我想委員剛剛指教這個主管加息的部分第三條的部分那我剛剛有特別也徐委員有特別有提過那我講說當初是因為考量到神戶那時代那個分別不過剛剛委員講的也沒有錯以現在我們反過來看那其實這個機制應該是在一樣的"},{"start":22784.349,"end":22804.33,"text":"那我有跟各位報告一下如果是增加了這個主管加級比照一級主管的話縣市議員的部分那大概會增加大概這個個人一個人大概增加一萬九千多塊大概主管加級那整個縣市議會支出會增加一億兩千多萬將近一億三千萬"},{"start":22805.083,"end":22824.924,"text":"那相次市民代表的部分會增加主管價值個人的話一個人會增加7520那整個這個代表會每年增加會增加一億七千多萬大概是這一個數字那這一個如果是各位我想各位委員如果大家有這個共識我們也尊重大概這樣謝謝"},{"start":22830.533,"end":22840.219,"text":"主席你所講的鄉鎮市代表增加主管階級是以一個縣市來講不是一個鄉鎮喔以整個來講鄉鎮市民代表總共有2139人全國我講全國的數字我講全國的數字還是全國一年一年"},{"start":22854.113,"end":22874.92,"text":"所以全國一年鄉鎮市代表如果增加專業家旗一頁7000多那我們徐信義委員的版本還有包括縣市議會議員如果再加進去的話再增加一億三千萬所以兩個加起來會有兩億九千萬大概三億左右總數22個縣市平均總數縣市議員有533位鄉鎮市民代表有2139位全國"},{"start":22886.908,"end":22912.977,"text":"那個不是專業家籍啊專業家籍原本就有了主管家籍主管家籍主管家籍主管家籍因為劉建國委員的版本跟我們徐欣委員版本最大不同其實是徐欣委員版本多一個縣市議會議員你看一下那個原本徐欣委員的版本第三條那劉建國委員跟徐欣委員都有支持第9項的鄉鎮市民代表"},{"start":22913.891,"end":22925.528,"text":"有多增加主管職務加級嗎?那我是不是能夠再請教一下次長?次長除了錢以外行政部門連中央主管機關考量是什麼?"},{"start":22926.912,"end":22927.352,"text":"劉建國的是在修正動議"},{"start":22956.204,"end":22977.856,"text":"劉建國在修正動議的第5案啊 修正動議第5案劉建國是坐在這裡的版本那麼多你不要我再補充一下我那個針對縣市議員的部分是有遺漏掉我會提這個修正動議基本上還是會跟這個學員的這個看法是一致的啦"},{"start":22978.416,"end":23001.328,"text":"因為我們要去修鄉鎮市民代表讓他可以增加主管加級不然就一般縣市議員還是市議員把他放掉嘛謝謝那既然大家都有共識是不是就依照徐姓委員跟劉建國委員的版本就綜合一個版本縣市議會也增加主管職務加級然後我們鄉鎮市民代表增加主管職務加級其實這就變是"},{"start":23002.611,"end":23028.178,"text":"有點類似回復正義啦,過去沒有到的一個地方,那現在我們把它給回復正義嘛,是不是?好,那現在我們劉建國委員和徐欣宇委員請我們內政部處長統一大家的共識吧,那你來,內政部的看法我們尊重委員的意見啦,那因為這個當初的確是因為我剛剛特別講了,當時的時代背景有這樣考量嘛"},{"start":23028.837,"end":23057.487,"text":"那以現在因為現在所有的民意代表的比照是比照縣市這個行政機關的這個標準來訂定那現在的確是因為長期以來這兩塊是沒有的是沒有增加這個租款價值的那以現在的薪資來算的話因為假設這是一個固定一個機制的話那應該是包括他的這個底薪還有賺來價值還有租款價值這一部分"},{"start":23058.151,"end":23058.912,"text":"王美惠 我覺得這個問題政治這樣解說是沒問題的"},{"start":23068.82,"end":23075.963,"text":"張宏祿委員,要不要再發言?不要喔?好,那我們就叫徐旭銀委員跟劉俊國委員"},{"start":23098.494,"end":23109.219,"text":"徐欣宇的版本徐欣宇委員徐欣宇徐欣宇徐欣宇徐欣宇徐欣宇徐欣宇徐欣宇"},{"start":23128.453,"end":23152.487,"text":"你還有新的啊?因為習近平的版本大家都有共識嘛對啦我們就有共識嘛就先保留一下這案就先保留一下嘛好不好馬上再補過去"},{"start":23156.303,"end":23183.691,"text":"有共識有共識就不用保留了不是啦等一下啦不是啦不是保留啦來啦來啦抱歉各位委員各位委員我提一個建議各位委員我提一個建議啦我們是不是大家看一下我們這個法條的這一本齁那徐信義委員的條文確實已經寫得很完整了那如果說大家都有共識我們等一下大家一起最後大家一起簽個名"},{"start":23184.551,"end":23210.499,"text":"在支持徐信義的版本代表說大家都一起支持,也不是說只有徐信義的版本啦是大家共同的啦好不好那這樣就不用再等條文了嘛大家看一下徐信義的版本對就是第6項縣市議會議員增加主管職務加級以及第9項鄉鎮市民代表增加主管職務加級好不好"},{"start":23212.526,"end":23217.292,"text":"主席我可以提問一下嗎主席不好意思"},{"start":23230.188,"end":23259.211,"text":"比較晚加入我是想請教一下你的第6款就是增加就是縣市議員給他主管加級然後最後一個是鄉鑒市民代表那可以大概讓我們知道說縣市議員這樣每一個人一個月是多少總數我大概知道總數我大概知道個別我為什麼要問這個問題是因為我們後面的條文會處理到我們對於縣市議員的助理費還有他其他盡可能讓他可以拉平所以如果這裡又有增加我只是說等一下在後面處理的條文"},{"start":23260.185,"end":23285.327,"text":"可能會相關每位的話如果增加縣市議員增加的部分一個人會增加一萬九千一百三十一萬九千一百三十這個是這是縣市議員的部分那鄉鎮市民代表的部分是增加七千五百二十塊七千五百二十二十元是per monthper month"},{"start":23290.975,"end":23303.818,"text":"喂喂我這裏也補充一下剛剛照我們次長說的齁主管加擠加進去之後縣市議員就是每個月10萬2280元那鄉鎮市民代表每個月是69350元沒錯吧本來對啊本來61830嘛剛剛照那個次長說的我們現在就變69350"},{"start":23321.512,"end":23322.273,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23342.892,"end":23342.952,"text":"主席"},{"start":23358.979,"end":23378.417,"text":"議員也是一樣比照處長或局長議員的部分比照處長他還是會升每年加一階一階一階到年功課我們都沒有降血我們還是比他們少所以執行司議員也是一樣比照那個局長十三指等一階"},{"start":23379.378,"end":23379.398,"text":"委員會議員會議"},{"start":23409.284,"end":23410.384,"text":"現在進行下面"},{"start":23438.747,"end":23462.144,"text":"繼續進行第5條的條文還有互表的討論請各位委員有無意見我們高津召委第5條的部分為我的修正動議請看一下我的修正動議的第5條我增加第二項那這第二項原住民的地方民意代表的為民服務費用最高為1.5倍"},{"start":23464.526,"end":23488.776,"text":"這是我比較成因委員的版本我覺得蠻不錯的那比行政院裡面的1.1倍還高然後我還增加了3到6項增加的第三項就是交通補助費其實剛剛包括中交兵委員還有劉建國委員都有提到就是說我們的地方民意代表尤其是這個偏鄉或原鄉地區他的服務廣闊"},{"start":23490.117,"end":23513.646,"text":"所以我們把這個福原遼闊地理環境交通狀況氣候條件延伸的費用都通稱為交通補助費那這個部分的話大家可以參照立法院組織法第32條我們也是有給立委相關的事務費用我們有油料費那個油料費是每個人每月是600公升"},{"start":23514.486,"end":23540.353,"text":"按照以現在的油價來算的話大概一個月補助1.8萬左右雖然立法院的這個補助給立委的原住民的跟偏鄉的跟一般的立委還是不同但是我也有提案修了所以我們既然今天要修地方議員的話我覺得這個部分也是考量的部分然後接著下來我就是請大家也看一下教育部的各機關學校的公教"},{"start":23541.033,"end":23566.789,"text":"公教人員的所謂的地域加級表他也是有分園鄉跟偏鄉的部分所以呢第4項增加的第3項費用的實施辦法我希望是由中央主管定資原因是因為我們的教育部也有這個部分然後再來增加的第3項的費用補助的額度是希望每兩年調整"},{"start":23568.93,"end":23571.551,"text":"交通補助費用是由中央主管來編列"},{"start":23590.057,"end":23615.023,"text":"好謝謝我們高金召委那第5條有本席吳清明提案還有吳立法委員還有我們高金召委我們的修正動議有第3條第4條第5項第6項這是我們高金召委所提出的好那我們各位委員大家再看一下"},{"start":23626.343,"end":23628.965,"text":"報告周偉第5條只有我的"},{"start":23636.835,"end":23642.542,"text":"有修正動議嗎?沒有,那個吳立華的修正動議是他沒有講到交通費用啦所以我的第5條的修正動議是講得非常清楚而且呢我增加了蠻多項的"},{"start":23653.596,"end":23668.785,"text":"那按照現在這個不管是陳英委員或者是吳立華委員的部分的話只有1項2項那我是增加了第4到7項所以講得非常清楚以上補充謝謝好謝謝那現在請吳斯亞委員"},{"start":23672.742,"end":23699.025,"text":"好看到高金委員第5條增加了後面的4項那當然是要協助地方民意代表可以讓他們在服務上更有國家的支持但我可能有幾個事情要就較於就是條文如果通過看是提案委員說明或者是內政部來想辦法回答也就是交通補助費就這邊的增略的第三項因為他的服務區域幅員遼闊"},{"start":23700.626,"end":23726.528,"text":"那地理環境交通狀況氣候條件而衍生之費用我是比較想知道如何去定定雖然下面那一項有說是中央主管機關來定之但是譬如說我就會當然我想高金委員是原住民族的委員可能是比較想替原鄉來爭取之類的那但是畢竟對於區域遼闊地理環境交通狀況好我舉例我自己的選區是北投士林"},{"start":23727.488,"end":23743.719,"text":"北投士林北投士林是臺北的臺北市的沒有這是地方政府啦這是地方議員啦然後呢我在試圖說士林北投是臺北市的面積上是二分之一是二分之一大"},{"start":23744.82,"end":23773.021,"text":"所以我的選區也會從平地到大屯山到竹子湖到七星山到沙茂山這樣子那因為如果說我是在想像怎麼去因應這些過去在教育部處理偏鄉教育條例的話大家可能這裡有教育委員會出生的對於他比較有清楚的定義偏鄉什麼樣子的學校他的地理條件"},{"start":23774.741,"end":23791.208,"text":"叫做偏鄉然後距離最近的區公所或是距離最近的公車站牌他有比較清楚的定義所以在偏鄉教育條例的這個原用之下他還分成偏鄉學校非偏鄉學校然後一個不山不市的學校就非山非市的學校"},{"start":23792.108,"end":23807.982,"text":"所以不是山區也不是市區的學校所以他有很清楚對於交通狀況多少公里距離哪裡怎麼樣那現在的條文講到區域遼闊地理環境交通狀況是什麼樣是試算跟比較的標準"},{"start":23809.312,"end":23838.367,"text":"好因為如果通過的話未來主管機關是你們內政部要訂喔怎麼去訂呢可能要說明一下執行上會是什麼樣的規劃那第二個我的意見是說如果要特別把因為現在對於縣市直轄市議員的這些都是地方議會地方政府編列預算嘛對不對你要特別來拿這條針對交通補助費額外來中央編列這樣會不會整個在制度上是亂的套的"},{"start":23839.372,"end":23866.374,"text":"如果要支持這個事情一樣也是回歸地方政府啊否則你對於每一個地方縣市議員他的薪水本奉這些東西包括剛剛講的這些什麼主管家籍什麼是地方政府來支應可是唯獨在交通補助費這一項變成中央來編列這樣賺到最多不是怪怪但是這些都會回到我剛剛說的那個前提何謂地理服務員遼闊他服務的區域是方圓多少公里算"},{"start":23867.435,"end":23890.965,"text":"交通狀況是什麼樣的交通狀況被列定它是特別辛苦的服務區然後什麼樣子的地理環境跟氣候條件那如果這樣子我們陽明山上一天到晚一年百分之八十的時間在下雨北投還有這個溫泉還有硫磺劑什麼東西都壞得比較快像我的服務處的設備都壞得比較快對不對所以這些東西是怎麼樣去釐定"},{"start":23893.486,"end":23898.507,"text":"內政部要說明清楚,因為主管機關要定資,你的執行上怎麼處理?"},{"start":23898.507,"end":23900.027,"text":"如果這樣通過,你一定會出事嗎?"},{"start":23900.027,"end":23904.648,"text":"還有我剛才問你的問題,是誰來編這筆錢?"},{"start":23904.648,"end":23919.751,"text":"抱歉,是不是我們請這個... 我們請內政部次長回答之前我要針對這個吳斯堯委員所提出的部分 你提出的,我這邊講得非常的清楚,第一件事情它叫做交通補助費"},{"start":23920.911,"end":23943.642,"text":"沒有包括你的器材或那個些東西好不好第二個我要講的是明的臺北市的陽明山我就比秀林鄉富士村就比一個彰化市還大所以你這樣子比本席你當然你當然是講你自己的部分但是我要講原住民的部分所以今天才會有第5條的修正動議然後再來就是你剛剛講得很好教育部裡面的分山分市"},{"start":23950.705,"end":23974.328,"text":"這個是中央裡面就可以明定他有講什麼叫做偏遠地區什麼叫高山地區這個部分然後再來就是教育部也有針對中央補助地方財政他有分偏遠特偏極偏偏遠所以以上施要委員所擔心那個部分恰巧你提的部分跟我提的教育部都一樣"},{"start":23975.149,"end":24001.148,"text":"中央同樣是中央教育部都可以針對這兩個部分有提出相關為什麼內政部不行所以這個也是我剛剛一直講的就是說我增加第4到第7項的部分不是沒有中央部會可以比較中央部會的教育部是可以比較的所以我們現在回歸到的就是民意代表的交通補助費用我剛剛講到"},{"start":24002.509,"end":24022.594,"text":"立法院的組織法第32條有針對立法委員的流量費由來補助每人每月600公升而我們看內政部裏面的條文他給我們看的附加條文裏面他沒有所以我們給地方的議員因為服務員的遼闊"},{"start":24024.734,"end":24043.293,"text":"我們給他加油費是合理的啊怎麼會不合理呢剛剛包括鍾嘉斌委員跟那個劉建國委員也針對偏鄉地區的這些幅員遼闊也希望來增加部分所以我覺得第5條的部分我增加第4到第7項是沒有問題的那麼我要再提一下比較遺憾的是"},{"start":24048.417,"end":24076.665,"text":"呃那個陳穎委員他自己的第5條版本他有寫到1.5倍但是呢吳立華委員提的修正版本把1.5倍拿掉了那這個部分我是有一點難過啦就是說針對原住民的立法委員為什麼今天內政部都同意增加10%為什麼我們自己陳穎委員的版本和吳立華委員版本把那個偵查部分拿掉了"},{"start":24077.285,"end":24093.926,"text":"甚至陳委員是講1.5倍所以我在修正動議裡面我同意陳委員講的1.5倍他比所謂的內政部裡面提出來的10%還多所以我的修正動議裡面我同意"},{"start":24096.327,"end":24117.833,"text":"這個這個陳委員的1.5倍接著下來我再增加4到7項以上再補充說明希望在場的各位委員們能夠體訓能夠瞭解我們現在在談的地方民意代表因為不僅僅是助理的費用他也因為交通地域的遼闊也應該要增加這個交通的費用以上補充謝謝"},{"start":24120.623,"end":24126.866,"text":"我自己是做了第5條付表的一個修正那主要是為民服務費那其他關於議員"},{"start":24147.436,"end":24176.224,"text":"還有鄉鎮市民代表的部分其實都跟內政部的版本大概一致但是我是特別在附註中去註明原住民的直轄市縣市議員及鄉鎮市民代表的為民服務費每人每月增加10%那剛才有特別去討論這個部分當然第一"},{"start":24176.664,"end":24176.944,"text":"主席"},{"start":24206.664,"end":24212.206,"text":"現在我們就針對第5條的條文本文來先處理 附帶條文 附表部分我們等一下再討論 分兩個階段好不好"},{"start":24225.012,"end":24225.793,"text":"我們請內政部的次長來回答好不好"},{"start":24261.2,"end":24277.97,"text":"在直轄市議會的實際的運作裡面我舉高雄市議會為例那如果依據現在有委員提出的版本這個原住民地方民意代表為民服務費提高為1.5倍也就是本來的2萬"},{"start":24280.131,"end":24305.157,"text":"現在修正版本好像是4萬本來4萬提升為1.5倍就變成6萬是每個月6萬是每個月增加2萬那在這裡面的這個交通補助費指的是每個月要編交通補助費還是說他在出席參與議會開會的時候他的交通補助費要跟其他的市議員的交通補助費是不一樣的"},{"start":24305.757,"end":24331.271,"text":"那這個在實際上地方議會的和消會遇到一個問題就是說他的為民服務費裡面已經有交通費用然後在交通費用裡面又增加了這個交通補助費是不一樣的這個可能在執行上不要讓這個原民的議員在和消的過程上有任何違法的問題我希望內政部要把這個問題講清楚"},{"start":24332.432,"end":24333.473,"text":"內政部我們次長來同仇來回答謝謝我們各位委員的指教"},{"start":24356.399,"end":24370.45,"text":"這樣跟各位委員報告在我們所有的立法院跟地方民意代表的支給的這些費用裡面只有立法委員是很清楚去定義有四項是分別給予這一個行政事務的補助的"},{"start":24371.03,"end":24385.585,"text":"包括文具油票是一項每個月多少錢是一項辦公室會是一項油料費是一項服務處的租金是一項其他的直轄市議員縣市議員鄉知市民代表通通是列在衛民服務費裡面"},{"start":24387.026,"end":24408.543,"text":"我這條特別報告就是說明目你訂的越多出問題就有可能越大那我們是包在一個衛民服務會裡面那這裡面包括所有的統籌的這個支出所以我們認為這樣子的話比較不容易會出問題如果你單內一直把每一項一直在增加的話這會變成非常的複雜"},{"start":24409.684,"end":24437.021,"text":"這個我大概第一個我先做這樣的一個報告那另外一個就是說在修法裡面第5條的修法裡面如果很單純的話我們未必一定要在這個本法條裡面去訂在戶表裡面就可以把它納到戶表裡面至於說這個衛民會這個原住這個園民區增加10%或者增加所謂的1.5倍等等這些那這些可以各位委員可以大家一起再一起討論這個基本上"},{"start":24437.941,"end":24453.173,"text":"我們現在院版就是10%我們是考慮到這個大概這個這個園民區的範圍的那你如果是增加如果只要增加1.5倍那是不是有需要到這樣的一個額度這個可能委員們要去考量好來喔好你先好來"},{"start":24460.816,"end":24479.744,"text":"因為趙委員剛剛一直沒有看我,我一直就一直舉手真的這個部分我先回應這個部分那按照次長所講的地方的民意代表跟立法委員不一樣那麼是不是您在為民服務費用上面因為這個講的是為民服務費對不對"},{"start":24483.365,"end":24501.527,"text":"你在那個附件裡面所以你在條文沒有你在附件裡面有為民服務費你看到了沒有為民服務費直轄市議員是4萬縣市議員是2萬嘛那能不能在這邊的提高呢就可以解決交通的費用這是我的意見第一個"},{"start":24502.288,"end":24524.449,"text":"第二部分的話,我們今天有調整議員助理補助費的總額和費用人數你們內政部告訴我們是說議會必須建立內控機制,周延支領費用規範,減少詐領的可能所以按照那個部分你都有內控,為什麼交通的部分就不行呢?"},{"start":24525.79,"end":24545.321,"text":"接下來,如果我們有明定1.5倍不是更好嗎?你說樂觀其成,如果既然是樂觀其成我的修正動議裡面是把它放在法條裡面而不是在附件裡面,不是會更好嗎?以上我的補充,謝謝好,請吳思堯我先回應一下"},{"start":24553.311,"end":24569.709,"text":"在這裏面的這個相關的補助裏面我要特別跟各位委員報告不管直轄市議員縣市議員或者鄉鎮市民代表事實上他本身就有出席會有交通會有膳食會這個都有包括每一天一千塊這個都有包括在內"},{"start":24570.694,"end":24596.528,"text":"那剛剛這個這個委員特別有講的我不是樂觀其成我是大家你們討論有共識的話我們是尊重不是我樂觀其成說法這樣我就同意說這個1.5倍我們也認得1.5倍的額度是不是太高這個要請委員你們要去考量因為院版裡面我們當初說會增加10%大概我們都有考量到這個這個區域範圍他還做出這樣一個10%的一個額度"},{"start":24601.415,"end":24622.054,"text":"主席換我喔謝謝這樣的討論很有意義啦因為這樣討論來才知道說條文如果這樣加加加我們可能要因應什麼樣子的支出所以如果我沒有理解錯的話次長您剛剛的回應是說就是現在所有的費用其實都包括在為民服務費裡面嘛對不對限制是這樣嘛"},{"start":24623.115,"end":24652.102,"text":"那既然已經這裡有委員提案說已經要增加原住民族的地方民意代表的為民服務費有的是10%有的是150%1.5倍就是150%兩個案所以應該來講交通補助費就是包括在裡面的嘛對不對所以這個部分大家來討論是比較單純我為什麼對於後面新增的幾項我比較有質疑是因為因為我看來他本身怎麼去定義然後怎麼去試算"},{"start":24653.499,"end":24667.318,"text":"在這個條文是沒有辦法去讓我們清楚可以算出來的變成一個原則性而且他可能就是一個比較空白的授權所以立法會都去算公現在的條文如高金委員所寫的這後面的倒數"},{"start":24668.459,"end":24687.211,"text":"三項倒數四項到底會增加多少交通補助費我們現在要審條文了目前是沒有辦法算出來的沒有辦法算出來就是因為我剛剛說那些定義什麼叫做服務員遼闊什麼叫做交通狀況什麼叫做天候狀況所以這樣子的條文弄出來的話倒不如剛剛就是次長說的把它"},{"start":24688.892,"end":24706.822,"text":"韓國災我們要著雨提升原住民族的地方民意代表問政的需求他的問民服務費著雨多少的著增這樣真的比較單純要不然你後面這些你是沒有辦法試算的我們立法院要通過一個條文目前沒有辦法試算出他的金額而且又載明說是要中央政府來編列我想這個是執行業會比較多困難"},{"start":24711.405,"end":24730.823,"text":"好那這樣回過頭來就回到現在的第二項對於原住民族的地方民意代表的問民服務費大家要去審酌一個合理的數字我們都願意幫忙原住民族的地方民意代表他們的服務確實比較辛苦服務員遼闊但是呢兩個案子一個10%一個150%"},{"start":24734.146,"end":24742.334,"text":"這顯然 這顯然差別就是大家要共同來決定那如果以150來講就形同一個地方民意代表剛剛講的"},{"start":24743.959,"end":24766.371,"text":"因為原住民族的選出來的身份他會比他多那6萬塊4萬塊就變6萬塊阿這其他這個民意代表會不會覺得相對的就有被剝奪感這個是大家要共同去討論的問題如果是150%就是1.5倍的話會不會形成其他的民意代表他認為這個差距好像"},{"start":24767.071,"end":24768.912,"text":"我説明一下好了"},{"start":24792.74,"end":24805.11,"text":"我是樂觀其成我樂見喔但是我說明一下那個1.5的話就是直轄市的議員4萬變6萬如果說是10%就是4萬再加4千4萬4那縣議員的話是2萬1.5費會變3萬如果是10%的話就2萬2千然後一個是7千5一個是5千5"},{"start":24828.154,"end":24834.26,"text":"不好意思不好意思我再補充一下如果按照內政部的版本增加10%的話以現在的來說4萬塊就增加10%是4.4萬然後縣議員增加10%的話是2萬2"},{"start":24848.112,"end":24865.138,"text":"那如果按照我的版本1.5倍也包含這個陳怡委員的版本的話直轄市是6萬縣轄市是3萬所以只增加幾千塊而已這幾千塊對啊一個是4.4萬一個是6萬一個是3萬一個2.2萬嘛沒有縣轄市會3萬3萬啦"},{"start":24874.269,"end":24890.283,"text":"所以2.2的3萬就8千嘛 所以我認為這個部分如果大家同意的話 那麼它就會增加 那我們如果大家覺得在所謂的油料費上面"},{"start":24891.464,"end":24917.902,"text":"會增加地方上的這些問題的話那你就增加民定1.5倍我也沒有意見我也同意但是我在第8條裡面有增加交通的費用我可以不要在第5條跟第7條裡面來增加我會增加第8條的部分好不好所以第5條的部分如果大家對於這個交通補助費裡面不要再增加這麼多項那麼我就堅持是1.5倍"},{"start":24921.304,"end":24922.845,"text":"我先舉手而且我已經舉3次了"},{"start":24936.912,"end":24954.411,"text":"主席我覺得是這樣子我們今天才審到第二條那我覺得這個審查的過程當中大家都很想幫地方民意代表解決現在的困境坦白講我們也都很想幫大家增加資源"},{"start":24955.192,"end":24961.256,"text":"所以大家拼命的在想有剛剛從第一個的主管家級然後現在的這個民意服務這個這個為民服務費然後有交通費有什麼什麼費還要繼續下去因為還有好多條在這樣的狀況那"},{"start":24972.842,"end":24975.025,"text":"如果從我的立場來講 我也樂觀其成啊每個人都樂觀其成啊 誰在這裡敢說不是樂觀其成 要押錢的大家都要拿錢出來 要拿資源出來 我也都覺得很棒啊 但是我覺得是這樣子"},{"start":24988.479,"end":25014.79,"text":"是不是因為我們如果按照條次這樣一路審下去以後每一次我們就審一個項目那就那個項目的時候像我也覺得交通費很有道理啊因為交通費真的就是那個陸服的狀況每個都不一樣啊如果像義營姐的高雄義營姐的選區佔高雄的70%對不對那所以每一個人的狀況真的都不一樣交通費當然有它的道理但是"},{"start":25015.47,"end":25039.667,"text":"如果按照條次這樣審下去的話我們會沒有辦法看到我們這次到底要增加什麼的全貌而且總額會是多少到最後你是不斷不斷的撿石頭到籃子裡面最後就被石頭給壓死了這是有可能發生的狀況我覺得做一個負責任的立法未來國民黨也有執政的可能啊"},{"start":25040.796,"end":25040.836,"text":"對馬一定會"},{"start":25071.196,"end":25093.873,"text":"可以啊,很好啊,對啊不是啦,侯委員,您先讓我說一下喔主席,我覺得現在這樣討論真的是會很亂啦是不是我們休息5分鐘,你聽我講完啦侯陸,不用啦,你聽我講完你就知道我要講什麼,真的不用啦"},{"start":25094.715,"end":25095.637,"text":"主席我講一下啦"},{"start":25104.383,"end":25133.396,"text":"第5條的這一個部分大家看一下修正動議第11也就是高金素美委員提出來的版本其實他的交通補助費不是限於原住民的議員或民意代表這一點要請大家先了解要偏鄉一般都有但是剛剛也聽到就是說因為我們其實在剛剛第三條的一個部分已經有討論到這個主管家級所以說其實高金委員他也沒有一定堅持說交通補助費但是原住民地方民意代表確實跟我們一般我覺得這個"},{"start":25134.136,"end":25134.456,"text":"我建議主席"},{"start":25157.096,"end":25169.479,"text":"我沒有跟你說完啦 美惠你不要 你剛剛好啦 我在講的是說 既然如此 那我們這個當然是要尊重原住民的 你真的跟他們尊重一下好不好"},{"start":25181.857,"end":25200.413,"text":"剛剛你們講話的時候我們都沒有發聲那現在我們在討論這個每一條主條都很重要我們也希望能夠推進所以說我現在才講說第5條的這個修正動議我覺得是應該要尊重我們藍綠兩黨的原住民委員提出來的提案也因此現在我們有看到包括陳寅委員是民進黨的委員他也提出1.5倍"},{"start":25201.354,"end":25230.346,"text":"包括高金素美委員他也提出1.5倍包括吳立華委員您的版本最終應該是1.1對不對我覺得說是不是主席你在這邊你在這邊讓原住民的委員他們去做一個協調那我們這一條可以先保留但是我們最後再回來然後就是確定到底是能夠增加多少那我覺得是說紀念委員會這邊討論其實是有一個高度而且我們也希望能夠在今天有一個結論嘛我想這主席也同意"},{"start":25230.786,"end":25249.124,"text":"所以如果說這個次長這邊沒有太大的一個意見的話我覺得是原住民的委員你們去達成一個共識因為現在看起來陳寅委員是支持1.5高金樹美委員支持1.5那吳立華委員也許你也樂觀其成那你們有一個結論那我們大家尊重啦沒有阿"},{"start":25251.127,"end":25254.008,"text":"原住民地方民意代表委民服務費最高1.5倍"},{"start":25272.375,"end":25285.774,"text":"今天這個大家都想要一個共識但如果說我們這樣一條一條這樣子這個那邊那個我跟你講你會失去了全貿有的東西你是在事務補助費用裡面你就可以加有的東西我覺得我們應該齁"},{"start":25287.782,"end":25309.001,"text":"跟內政部我們先講好到底哪些加哪些啊這樣子我們來討論才會有一個有一個總規的一個總概括一個討論不然你這個加那個加你到時候我跟你講本來我們希望說加個1.5到最後你會超過1.5變成兩倍三倍的我不是只有原住民"},{"start":25309.702,"end":25328.931,"text":"很多東西是事務補助費裡面就可以包含的東西了我覺得我們休息一下我們跟內政部大家有一個大方向之後我們來來這樣討論才可以討論出來啦不然你一條一條你這樣會亂掉啦不是阿現在就在逐條討論不紅綠好阿逐條討論我們現在先休息然後"},{"start":25332.593,"end":25333.894,"text":"修正草案等37案"},{"start":25354.804,"end":25373.173,"text":"我是要求內政部要把今天所有委員要求加的項目放進來,我們要今天修法的全貌,這樣我們才知道到底是要加什麼,你們可以提出表格出來啊,你們的意見是什麼啊?對啊,怎麼會有這種想法呢?"},{"start":25374.053,"end":25374.073,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":25391.809,"end":25413.203,"text":"你聽我講啦,因為我不愛人,我都不是,你講你大爺的名都做壞,他說他愛生女兒,我來照這個,我不是照他講的啦,我不是照他講啦,我不是在笑他,因為目前的人都愛尊重,我怎麼會去"},{"start":25414.343,"end":25414.804,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":25444.205,"end":25445.845,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":25470.377,"end":25494.697,"text":"市長你現在意見怎麼樣?因為洪祿偉的意見 我說給大家聽他一直說不要再罰你們一個五倍但是因為你們沒有版本所以你們版本是在付表裡面對不對?付表就是一二三四五五個嘛 對不對?那如果在付表裡面你再不要再罰你們一個五倍在這邊金額提高我們也沒有意見啊"},{"start":25495.257,"end":25497.778,"text":"我只是說我要說明因為我們的基礎我已經先修"},{"start":25512.913,"end":25533.338,"text":"是把直轄市議員2萬提升到4萬是增加2萬所以我很難想像服務費又要給他提升到1.5倍的話是又多2萬就是4萬變6萬我上面的條文講得非常清楚是為民服務費沒有 付表裡面也是"},{"start":25538.498,"end":25548.397,"text":"為民不務廢每個大家看一下行政院的那個內政部的版本就是我寫的就這個增加百分之十嘛那百分之十只有1.1"},{"start":25550.476,"end":25572.409,"text":"對我們現在講的是1.5倍那所以同樣是為民服務費同路委員講的我也可以接受我們如果是等一下我們如果在法條裡面復民地1.5倍那麻煩就是你的付表修正裡面這個錢都要提高對我就是修復票這樣了解嗎我了解"},{"start":25573.149,"end":25575.251,"text":"反正是我們說因為已經增加到百分之百"},{"start":25589.718,"end":25606.578,"text":"議員會議員會"},{"start":25607.158,"end":25607.178,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":25633.259,"end":25635.16,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議"},{"start":25649.431,"end":25665.186,"text":"我也請你準備來今天補償的時候,你要告訴我們考量,我們考量是說嚴肅無序的換卷,大概我們增加的分析增加百分之十,哪一個金額適合以後增加會增加四千塊,就四千塊嘛"},{"start":25667.608,"end":25667.628,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":25689.417,"end":25706.391,"text":"所以 我的意思 你的基礎如果是按照這樣我們就要增加了嗎?那就是變成是一百億跟一百億所以 我們是從中原打到外地長城"},{"start":25710.794,"end":25715.238,"text":"市民代表我們這邊原住民委員可以先去討論一個"},{"start":25738.536,"end":25738.796,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25756.001,"end":25775.439,"text":"對阿他們市民代表他是一個區的市民代表是一個區海灘我以前龜山市民代表對對對對他一個區生4個市民代表因為一個更小市民代表很小這也太樓了吧"},{"start":25779.221,"end":25779.742,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25795.407,"end":25800.228,"text":"總之大家多坐下來談 因為都希望可以做好一點"},{"start":25818.093,"end":25818.494,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25840.829,"end":25863.234,"text":"他可能是寫錯了﹖會不會啊?應該是書吧﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖是書吧﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖不是啦﹖"},{"start":25865.655,"end":25866.016,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25881.854,"end":25889.2,"text":"我們先來繼續開會我們第5條本條條文跟戶表我們先討論第6條好不好"},{"start":25900.23,"end":25916.63,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25918.904,"end":25938.783,"text":"內政部沒有把我們接下來要審的每一條可能會增加多少預算在場的委員都很難承擔這個責任所以我們今天審完到底幫國庫多花了多少錢內政部要先算出來吧好 謝謝主席主席來我感覺說要看這個"},{"start":25942.807,"end":25943.247,"text":"我們先討論第6條"},{"start":25971.51,"end":25999.506,"text":"好來我還是覺得要支持像巧慧委員剛剛說的我們這整個這一次修法的全貌是什麼我們總共調了什麼我們一開始很多人質詢都講過了加班費支遣費這是一個項目然後衛民服務費是一個項目然後後面隨著軍公交調整也是一個項目全部項目拿出來講告訴我們全部這個全貌是這樣然後我們總共增加了多少才可以來討論說這個時候在這邊又突然新增一個名目到底合不合理嗎"},{"start":26000.679,"end":26001.28,"text":"好,好,好"},{"start":26025.855,"end":26044.063,"text":"所以這個名目是什麼大家要很清楚不能說我現在又想到一條這個其實理由要說真的一百個理由都有每個人都有自己需要的東西啊我們也都對我們都很支持啊只是說這個全貌是什麼內政部一定要講清楚"},{"start":26046.145,"end":26053.559,"text":"對啊我們不能說現在說好現在兩萬已經變四萬四萬再加一點我會變六萬意思是我們今天出去兩萬會變六萬捏"},{"start":26056.16,"end":26081.42,"text":"現在我們內政部每一條都是尊重阿你尊重我看不是啦我會講主席 如果要這樣尊重他做事也要一直加跟他師傅要一直加 這樣就麻煩你了各位委員 剛剛提出來的你的細算辦法你都沒說對阿 都說要當主席"},{"start":26086.038,"end":26088.159,"text":"我們就第6條先討論也沒有什麼不好的啊 對不對"},{"start":26103.629,"end":26119.439,"text":"拜託主席我先跟各位報告一下原則上我們是用驗版的來討論嘛我們立場一定是驗版的那各位委員你可能會有不同的你要去加碼幹什麼東西這個你們大家要有共識啊這不是來問我要不要啊"},{"start":26120.319,"end":26136.835,"text":"沒有,你到底要回答合不合理啊?金費是國家出的,你到底要回答合不合理啊?你必須要提醒,就是說你政策會不會增加財源?這個你們要考量。副市長,你不用這麼答覆我,副市長"},{"start":26138.419,"end":26150.335,"text":"社長你這樣打我是出問題啦對啊誇張嚴重的問題啦我蠻同意的啦我講一下啦我們原有的民調執行條例是不是叫做同工同酬"},{"start":26152.93,"end":26180.765,"text":"因為是這原者在編列嘛不可能以前沒有當次長嘛對不對好 那我們現在在村里長的私會裡面在村里長的私會裡面你們行政院的版本主動要針對原住民區要增加百分之十喔 對不對所以我們自己要去把這個打開喔叫做什麼 叫做不同工又不同酬喔當你把這個打開之後為什麼我片尾地區不能打開"},{"start":26183.192,"end":26204.018,"text":"為什麼?為什麼?你要跟我講為什麼?好再來你聽我講完不要把縣市議員鄉鎮市民代表開會的交通會當成是一個正常交通會喔那是局限在開會所有交通會各位搞清楚"},{"start":26205.051,"end":26233.318,"text":"為民不為裡面當然也涵蓋所謂的交通會這是你們的互見裡面非常清楚嘛 對不對不要以偏蓋權我實在強調一點說如果今天你要堅守同工同酬的這個原則那我們就看怎麼去增比例的去調整如果你們要打破同工同酬要變成不同工不同酬那就很多事情就是要鉅細密的來討論了"},{"start":26242.958,"end":26263.892,"text":"所以主席我覺得我們在討論這個事情我覺得建國委員講的很好同工同酬但是特殊需求增加多一點這是可以討論的但是這一條叫做為民服務費就是為你的選民服務的費用你要用什麼基準去看待為民服務費"},{"start":26265.434,"end":26278.164,"text":"如果說另外一個角度來思考如果以都會區的他的服務的選民更人口更稠密可能當選的議員他服務的選民人更多"},{"start":26279.398,"end":26298.348,"text":"所以他的為民服務他可能付出來的成本就更多這是另外一個思考的方式你從服務員的部分交通的部分他的偏鄉的部分是一個思考的方式那為了避免這些東西大家的思考不一樣就回到一個同工同酬的原則上去處理那"},{"start":26300.213,"end":26326.982,"text":"剛剛說的如果是1.5倍這個在合理性上大家真的要去思考所以為什麼要請你們去試算今天整包下來會有增加多少因為大家都加碼加碼大家講得很開心就像現在在網購我看到這個喜歡我就放上購物車那個喜歡放上購物車可是最後你要去結算購物車結算是多少是不是國庫可以負擔的"},{"start":26327.782,"end":26348.194,"text":"你會再經過一個比較這個可能就是購物車退掉這個購物車退掉我去買我真正需要的我去選擇真正合理的制度所以如果沒有一個這樣子的基準每一個大家都說得很開心這個也加碼那個也加碼最後爆掉了這個不是所以我說我要跟政事長你的說法國庫"},{"start":26350.535,"end":26373.053,"text":"合理的負擔你一定要試算清楚整個爆掉了地方政府喔地方政府要負擔的喔不是中央修法然後地方買單你要去想地方政府他們認為合不合理今天通過原住民族議員很開心可是另外的他非原住民族他服務的選區一樣大的議員他可能就有相對被剝奪感"},{"start":26374.938,"end":26390.238,"text":"這個東西要橫屏去討論所以這個條文是不是我們先進入下面的那這個先暫時保留等大家回來有條文因為剛才我們高金委員跟巧威委員還有吳立華委員他們都有協調好了"},{"start":26391.039,"end":26409.544,"text":"那是不是請高金委員請來說明我想這個部分我們就不要太多的贅述了我們還是回歸到條文的本身那剛剛我們有協調過了就是說我也不堅持在第5條的修正動議裡面一定要按照我的版本通過但是呢我們剛剛講到"},{"start":26412.646,"end":26430.306,"text":"原住民地區或偏鄉地區的議員的確跟縣市政府的議員是不一樣的我們不管他叫什麼費用但是總之他一定是要跟這個因為他的地域遼闊等等的來做所以呢當時內政部會同意我說是10%"},{"start":26431.647,"end":26452.391,"text":"但是10%這個部分我們覺得來換算以後真的還不是很好所以我覺得第5條的就按照行政院版本的第5條的副表裡面的注釋這個直轄市縣市議會的原住民議員為民服務費每人每月再增加20%增加10%的部分我們再增加百分"},{"start":26455.753,"end":26475.006,"text":"文字修正改成百分之二十好不好那這個部分也是紅路委員美惠委員巧惠委員還有還有我們大家剛剛在私底下討論的時候希望希望希望這個內政部能夠了解我們就不要再把劉建國委員跟這個"},{"start":26476.749,"end":26476.869,"text":"好﹗好﹗"},{"start":26506.361,"end":26521.109,"text":"市長10%都同意但高級委員希望20%我說你們要內政部要看一下看可不可以啊"},{"start":26530.874,"end":26532.795,"text":"我一直在強調一件事情"},{"start":26547.279,"end":26574.178,"text":"各位在討論這個東西的時候我們只能提醒各位就是說我願有願反本但是你如果要去加碼幹什麼你要考慮到財政現在我們都不提到財政地方到底如果一直加的話他到底有沒有辦法去承擔這樣的一個財政這個我必須要提醒當初我們在涉算這個不管百分之十這個部分或者整個的調整弧度我們是有經過涉算你要說講到公平"},{"start":26574.946,"end":26589.729,"text":"不一定絕對公平,我們做不到絕對公平,坦白講剛剛那個劉振國也特別提到,那你偏遠地區呢?偏遠地區可能會比你的那個原住民區還更更那個偏遠更交通不便啊那到底要不要再提進去?"},{"start":26595.228,"end":26607.594,"text":"我還是要說明一下基本上我是直接修這個付表那付表裏面我就是在這個附註"},{"start":26611.656,"end":26635.543,"text":"有有有對我就是在附註4的地方剛才私下的休息時間討論已經達成一個協議我原本是在復表修正第5條的復表的附註4我是寫增加10%但是剛才休息的時候我們是討論說20%那我要特別說明對我要特別說明"},{"start":26637.924,"end":26652.446,"text":"因為我們原鄉齁我還是要再說明一下以高雄市那馬下他就會他的選區會從那馬下鄉一直到高雄市的好幾個區左營區等等等"},{"start":26654.866,"end":26654.886,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":26672.552,"end":26672.892,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員的說明"},{"start":26698.308,"end":26709.779,"text":"我們現在只修第5條的護表本席的修正動議護制增加百分之10增加到百分之20"},{"start":26717.343,"end":26737.309,"text":"請以附表內容照本席以高經召委我們所提議的修正動議修正動議通過第5條的條文維持本文現行條文這樣可以嗎可以可以吧這個這個先講一下"},{"start":26741.348,"end":26742.468,"text":"我講的不是齊頭市啊,你這話講得沒有?"},{"start":26763.203,"end":26787.072,"text":"平衡的地區,難道你們不支持嗎?對不對?所以當你要影響我們去支持的時候,那你就是因為湖南廣闊嘛。你剛剛還一直以完整的話,你現在又打回來。那你看那邊緣的地區,偏鄉的地區,有的湖南還比圓鄉的可能更廣闊。那你這個部分要怎麼處理?這個你必須要思考嘛。這是一個一定的比例原則啦。"},{"start":26788.42,"end":26813.015,"text":"雖然我是希望說原先的本位是二層他們已經協調好沒有意見但是針對偏遠偏向的地方你要怎麼處理那內政部是不是你們來定定好那等一下內政部要統一回答我有舉手我有舉手好你要先點報告各位委員大家當然都擔心說偏向這個東西沒完沒了但問題是全台灣各級民意代表沒有沒有任何一般民意代表的選區比原住民更大嘛"},{"start":26814.076,"end":26815.017,"text":"希望大家成全以上謝謝"},{"start":26832.546,"end":26854.28,"text":"好謝謝那是巧慰委員謝謝牛委員剛剛的這個說法這個說法我其實是支持而且我本來就是要呼籲這樣的說法因為像我們新北市議員選出來的議員確實新北市的原住民議員不管是平地或者是山地他的服務範圍都是全新北市"},{"start":26855.02,"end":26879.082,"text":"全新北市所以我們是支持原鄉可以當然是可以加級啦因為這是符合這個比例的狀況但是我們剛剛考慮到同工不同酬的這個問題的話確實我覺得這段話如果剛剛是內政部來解釋的話會比我們現在委員在下面台下解釋其實是比較合理的狀況啦"},{"start":26880.123,"end":26898.724,"text":"因為對我們委員來講﹐不管是原鄉還是偏鄉﹐手心手背都是肉啊﹐那是可以做好人﹐我們兩個都想要加啊﹐所以到底是要怎麼加﹐那因為偏鄉他當然是偏﹐沒有錯﹐但是他是不是到全部﹐"},{"start":26899.264,"end":26914.988,"text":"那如果是這樣的話為民服務費有些是按照地理面積來看呢還是要用人口數來看呢那如果人口密集區那他也會說那我是不是要為民服務的更多呢所以像諸如種種的考慮的話"},{"start":26917.109,"end":26942.207,"text":"我還是覺得其實剛剛我說的這段話其實是內政部講可能比較合理啦好來 主席謝謝啦我想剛剛大家已經有一個共識就是百分之二十也感謝主席這邊有一個修正動議的一個才事啦那還是一樣啦不是我覺得執政黨的委員如果說你們提出來要偏鄉也要照顧那你們提修正動議你們提版本啊"},{"start":26943.007,"end":26954.434,"text":"我們提了半天 聽了半天 你們這也要做好人 那也要做好人 你們的版本也要推出來 那內政部今天 我們也沒有 政院版也還沒有進來 那到底我們現在是要怎麼討論"},{"start":26955.936,"end":26975.791,"text":"我想不要浪費彼此的時間就是說原名20%剛剛主席已經裁示了那大家是不是這一條就可以接受那如果說大家要拖時間的話那沒有錯啊我那邊人口一個區裡面有十幾萬人里長一個里三萬人的那那個里要不要比較多"},{"start":26976.892,"end":26998.049,"text":"所以不要這樣子比,這樣子會比沒完再一次強調,如果說真的委員有意見,委員負責任的把修正動議提出來,你的版本提出來我們來看不然你每個都只會站著說話不腰疼,我覺得這樣不應該啦,感謝好,那請我們次長同意回答,然後我們就這個案子我們就告一段落了"},{"start":26999.758,"end":27008.638,"text":"我想現在剛剛已經這個已經決定說要增加顏名區的增加4%那基本上我們沒有意見了因為大家也有共識了"},{"start":27010.561,"end":27011.101,"text":"好啦好啦"},{"start":27040.562,"end":27064.98,"text":"我最後再補充一點就好了因為我們等一下要審到第7條那第7條的時候就是我們等一下會討論到第7條我是用第7條來反映第5條的這樣的一個事情讓各位做參考剛剛蘇曉雯講得非常好到底你是要按服務員還是按服務人口這個其實都要有一個計算的依據跟基準"},{"start":27065.76,"end":27089.64,"text":"所以說當我們支持原住民的這樣的一個議員的服務費去增加的時候你必須要去思考的就是偏山偏遠的地方因為你在第7條的時候我們內政部是有針對原住民地區的村里每月要再增加10%的這個社會補助費這個地方又提到了"},{"start":27091.127,"end":27104.562,"text":"這個地方提到你可以說縣市議員他是服務整個縣市的這個我接受沒意見啊但是針對原民的這些村里長他應該不是服務整個縣市嘛他是也不會服務他整個村這個鄉鎮嘛"},{"start":27106.744,"end":27132.587,"text":"但是內政部你一開這些原名的地區的村里長每天在增加百分之十的時候他是只限於村里喔就是原住民的村里長他只服務這一個村里但是他未免服務費增加百分之十喔你第五條是這麼處理你第七條也是這麼處理那你要去思考一下這樣訂有沒有一定的避免者請思考一下齁"},{"start":27134.616,"end":27152.726,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員那是不是這部分車長要不要回應剛剛這個劉委員講的部分是如果假設你這個要偏偏地氣你要放進去的話那你變成戶表跟那個地氣條是要同時去修的你要放進去喔"},{"start":27154.331,"end":27183.089,"text":"連戶票你要放進去第7條因為第7條講的都是村里長的部分對啦律法技術這個都沒有什麼問題啦就剛才洪委員在講說為什麼大家又沒提出來不是不提嘛是讓讓大家對照去思考我們第1條這麼處理OK我沒有意見我也支持你馬上又進到第7條又針對村里長這個就是有只限於所謂的村里的服務範圍沒有所謂的一個大的縣市的範圍的概念裡面你去增加百分之十喔"},{"start":27186.428,"end":27192.05,"text":"這個我也支持阿 但是法條有一定的比例原則嘛 這個要遵守嘛"},{"start":27204.595,"end":27218.922,"text":"劉政國,劉政國委員,這樣你減低這第5條,原住民增加21%有沒有意見?我原本就沒有意見,我就支持啊,但是我在講的是那個天下的東西你要,你內政代表你必須要是支持好不好?"},{"start":27222.108,"end":27252.108,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27254.793,"end":27267.424,"text":"第二條請問是各位委員會主席來 恩 恩里博議 恩里博議 恩里博議 恩里博議 恩里博議"},{"start":27278.407,"end":27293.584,"text":"好,沒關係,那第5條我們都全部都簽嘛,好不好?不是,後會的問題喔,大家都簽啦,沒有分什麼東西沒有啦,這都是為了大家共同的啦好,那我們就進行第6條的條文討論請各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":27306.113,"end":27320.605,"text":"第6條有施巧慧委員．吳祁銘委員．劉行廷委員．丁協中委員．李博毅委員．吳立法委員．高金昭委提我們的修正動議"},{"start":27322.861,"end":27340.849,"text":"好謝謝主席這一條其實審查的就是這一次對於助理補助費要提升24年沒有調整這是重中之重的條文那我簡要報告我的提案我在直轄市的部分我提案是總額提高至30萬元助理補助費"},{"start":27344.271,"end":27363.048,"text":"議員 提高到20萬 批用人數的部分直轄市是6位地方縣市議會的助理是4人加班費的部分我在直轄市跟縣市都是著增20%也就直轄市增加6萬助理費地方政府的"},{"start":27364.689,"end":27393.696,"text":"現事的就是4萬塊那這樣子的試算我有用一個比較合理當然有參照的是臺北市議會戴希欽議長有提據一個臺北市議會共同的版本那當然他們期待的版本可能是要到36萬的總數但是因為如果就直轄市到36萬就要看地方縣市政府如果臺北市也許財源比較充足他可以編列的出來那其他的部分"},{"start":27394.156,"end":27412.663,"text":"其他的直轄市我沒有辦法來替他們來思考他們的裁員的狀況但是如果就直轄市一舉拉到36的話那跟縣市的差距又更大了所以我們這一次的修法在第6條是希望同步的提升然後又可以拉近直轄市跟縣市議員的助理費的"},{"start":27413.563,"end":27414.624,"text":"謝謝五四一委員還有"},{"start":27435.817,"end":27465.195,"text":"苗欣萍我們委員報告一下我們提修正動議的版本我們希望說直轄市議會議員每人公費助理至少6人縣市議會至少2人但我覺得至少拼用幾人這個我們可以保留彈性的調整空間但額度上我們當然要為地方議員的這個助理爭取最好的勞動待遇所以我們在直轄市議會議員我們主張助理費36萬縣市議會這個我非常贊成要把差距拉近所以我們大幅調高到20萬因為縣市議員的服務範圍跟服務的這個工作的量其實跟直轄市議員是沒有差的啦"},{"start":27465.555,"end":27466.375,"text":"以上跟大家報告,謝謝"},{"start":27486.143,"end":27486.283,"text":"主席"},{"start":27507.295,"end":27524.166,"text":"好,謝謝我們牛先天委員：就歡迎來聽施政委員感謝主席,我在這修正動議的過程中就是我們的直轄市議會縣市議會的議員助理,我們這個公費拿到議員助理,輔助各議員聘用助理,剛才其他的後面這就以牛委員那"},{"start":27535.453,"end":27541.215,"text":"修正綜藝委訓．其他再來．助理要適用勞動基準法規定．"},{"start":27550.399,"end":27577.345,"text":"好謝謝主席主席因為我的版本還來不及進來那所以我今天也有提修正動議那當然我也就人數跟這個費用的部分我有我的看法例如說直轄市議會議員每人每月是新台幣30萬元那縣市議會議員每人每月是新台幣18萬元因為我覺得這個差別不要到那麼大這個尤其是在公費助理的費用總額的部分"},{"start":27577.905,"end":27582.169,"text":"但是我想每個委員現在都在講自己的數額自己的版本那我縱觀這個所有的版本裡面大概已經有1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11種版本是然後是大家不同的數額所以其實這一條最重要的就是數字到底要定到多少"},{"start":27600.768,"end":27623.179,"text":"那是不是內政部可以告訴我們因為院板還沒有附還沒有進到委員會的院板嘛也是來不及嘛其實你也有個數字那你這個數字出來你是怎麼算的所以我們其他人的數字或高或低低的我們就可以拉高啊高的的話看是一個什麼樣的狀況這樣我們審查速度會不會比較快一點好 謝謝等一下每位那個李博弈好來"},{"start":27627.028,"end":27648.055,"text":"我想我們對第6條也有提出一個修正那在提出修正之前其實還沒有看到行政院的版本後來看到行政院的版本之後那我們有共同來提出一個修正動議我想我們依這個修正動議來做這個說明另外對於其他的說明的方面就是針對與部分工時以及"},{"start":27648.755,"end":27659.8,"text":"未來是不是要依照公務員待遇公務員調整的幅度來自動來調整來入法我們提出這一點也一併一併來討論謝謝"},{"start":27668.063,"end":27698.063,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":27698.523,"end":27717.828,"text":"這其實又去又還是某種程度在干預這個議員他自己運用助理的一個方式然後也會限制掉議員助理他的薪資的上限因為其實我們訂完之後變成說每個議員助理之後還是差不多就是領4萬多那其實跟原本的狀態是差不多的"},{"start":27718.228,"end":27746.281,"text":"那另外就是我希望內政部要說明的就是這個內控機制的部分就是還是要說明一下就這個定下去之後請議會就各議員助理分配的情形助理聘用的關係各項費用的支應情形建立內部機控機內部控制的制度這個到底是什麼要怎麼去控制各個議會到時候要怎麼去依循我覺得這個是蠻重要的那最後我也要"},{"start":27746.801,"end":27767.371,"text":"支持一下就是剛剛那個牛旭婷委員其實跟我早上質詢的內容都是有注意到說這個加班費如果加上去了結果沒有真的把加班費照顧到助理怎麼辦就是這個好像金額並沒有很多很多就是我剛剛早上有試算嘛就是每個議員之後加班費領到大概800多塊"},{"start":27768.291,"end":27778.993,"text":"那其實那這個到底有給沒給對助理來說其實蠻心酸的喔那還有部分工時如果可以放寬也是很好的這是這一條我覺得非常非常重要的意見謝謝"},{"start":27781.567,"end":27783.348,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27802.757,"end":27817.767,"text":"因為也有議員我們說我們覺得來這裡一旦要修就要修到多長的好不好 因為我說只下一次30萬及我們的管理長發財現在一個問題就是說你差不多是發財你完全都沒有提供"},{"start":27822.954,"end":27851.28,"text":"因為我們總共有36個版本所以因為我們的版本先要大家取得一個公約書甚至在這個部份剛才馮璐說是不是先休息一下我們大家合作大家多年接受也符合行政單位大家用共同的提案修正提案大家共同提案這樣應該大家都可以接受"},{"start":27851.88,"end":27855.781,"text":"主席我還沒有被講到,我的跟人家不一樣有一個小部分。一起協商啊。"},{"start":27871.127,"end":27895.221,"text":"主席拜託一下,我的那個不一樣因為那個第6條其他的我都跟大家一樣要提高多少也都差不多我比較特別的是說我的版本是有鄉民代表的助理補助費為什麼?我簡單的講因為這個陳情也很久可是我們原來是沒有"},{"start":27896.434,"end":27910.696,"text":"我們現在談的直轄市議員跟縣市議員助理補助費是有然後提高但是鄉民代表助理費是沒有我現在要講我的理由因為我們很重要現在在推地方創生"},{"start":27912.218,"end":27937.992,"text":"從過去的社區營造我覺得鄉是很重要的一個單位鄉也有它的地方自治也有它的地方法規但是我覺得一直都沒有給他們助理費所以我們一直沒有辦法把基礎做好所以我就講這個重點因為鄉民代表劉建國跟我還有黃嘉斌我們都做市民代表上來的黃建斌然後鄉民代表還有助理"},{"start":27940.133,"end":27941.474,"text":"好 休息文章 大家寫一寫"},{"start":27965.413,"end":27965.433,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":27991.596,"end":27992.217,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28013.508,"end":28013.848,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28035.089,"end":28035.77,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28058.484,"end":28058.904,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28083.61,"end":28083.85,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28102.517,"end":28124.002,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28125.303,"end":28125.904,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28146.005,"end":28147.626,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":28165.435,"end":28166.996,"text":"你用硬板 用硬板 要蓋 要蓋 蓋就好了"},{"start":28193.771,"end":28194.351,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28222.91,"end":28250.333,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":28250.593,"end":28254.135,"text":"現在驗滿了 台足3年增加18億元 增加驗滿25萬元 現時年增加840萬元"},{"start":28265.16,"end":28265.96,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28297.265,"end":28297.626,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":28316.046,"end":28318.168,"text":"因為聯委員他整合的"},{"start":28339.804,"end":28357.261,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":28361.032,"end":28387.671,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":28388.472,"end":28388.492,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":28435.633,"end":28448.901,"text":"不過不過剛那個不過剛那個沒有沒有我們有一個我剛還要問一個修正狀況且你當初都覺得不完整發生什麼問題是到底你們說誰要拒絕他有完整的溝通就是這個結局已經通過了對一起就通過了但是"},{"start":28461.549,"end":28461.83,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28485.891,"end":28486.431,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28509.621,"end":28509.641,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":28538.992,"end":28539.012,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":28561.228,"end":28564.09,"text":"明天真的假凍?趕快傳出來"},{"start":28588.147,"end":28593.949,"text":"他去問黨團的那個他去問黨團的那個他去問黨團的那個他去問黨團的那個他去問黨團的那個他去問黨團的那個"},{"start":28607.695,"end":28608.415,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28629.406,"end":28629.426,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":28653.411,"end":28653.831,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28678.252,"end":28678.673,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28695.18,"end":28696.101,"text":"結果怎麼樣?"},{"start":28696.101,"end":28696.121,"text":"含價"},{"start":28717.752,"end":28720.114,"text":"我們剛剛斷了一下,如果13就斷了"},{"start":28747.249,"end":28752.431,"text":"我們真的太多啦不是啦我們真的太多啦"},{"start":28774.617,"end":28774.637,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":28803.263,"end":28803.283,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":28827.9,"end":28827.92,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":28854.765,"end":28855.486,"text":"阿兵應該在抽菸吧"},{"start":28882.605,"end":28884.126,"text":"那個20是誰啊我來看一下"},{"start":28896.152,"end":28904.697,"text":"20是誰啊我說那個縣市議員給20最高是誰列的太高了真的太高8萬8萬弄到20太多了"},{"start":28911.018,"end":28917.62,"text":"我當兩屆都八萬人有人當兩屆一輩子都八萬人沒有我們不是五代五屆夫二屆那天就看我們國民黨打過一場這台運動"},{"start":28937.086,"end":28937.106,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":28955.201,"end":28955.221,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":28982.023,"end":28982.543,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29007.098,"end":29007.959,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29031.854,"end":29032.674,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29054.504,"end":29054.524,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":29076.973,"end":29077.773,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29104.104,"end":29130.162,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29131.271,"end":29141.933,"text":"不是啦,因為我說這樣,你這齁,你講實在,你如果來16萬,天內就加賺多少啊?這樣我...不是啦,剛剛那個16萬啊,不是啦,你跟他說我們都尊重你們,你們就來32分16,當我們都不遵守啊?"},{"start":29160.238,"end":29160.258,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":29179.809,"end":29180.47,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29200.145,"end":29224.241,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29225.322,"end":29225.622,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29240.774,"end":29240.954,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29264.889,"end":29286.544,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":29287.184,"end":29287.204,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":29314.937,"end":29321.324,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29335.258,"end":29336.438,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29360.623,"end":29384.974,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":29384.974,"end":29395.896,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":29397.244,"end":29418.238,"text":"市長,我們在今天的訴訟中有送保證的司機,我們這樣還要一個一個去講保證麻煩,對不對?所以這兩個委員站都送保證,那些他們都至少大家有一段時間可以整理,但至少我們看怎麼樣的方式可以講說委員會有一個共識,至少讓他們擔當先生就不用再討論數字了,就討論一個情形就好,那他們如果要擔任我們也比較好下台,好不好?"},{"start":29425.183,"end":29426.004,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29452.922,"end":29452.942,"text":"委員會議員會議"},{"start":29474.679,"end":29474.699,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":29492.538,"end":29492.938,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29518.207,"end":29518.467,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29547.572,"end":29547.932,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29567.134,"end":29567.714,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29596.487,"end":29596.507,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":29615.094,"end":29639.326,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29639.706,"end":29639.906,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29660.913,"end":29682.329,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":29691.597,"end":29692.698,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":29721.873,"end":29722.541,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29727.566,"end":29728.207,"text":"市長市長市長市長"},{"start":29757.729,"end":29764.974,"text":"將局?談判將局?當然不接受,怎麼可能接受?我再不接受說送錢當面不要,那要怎樣?這個叫沉默懲罰,他想說已經花了很多時間,不能直接給你送錢"},{"start":29778.309,"end":29780.29,"text":"前面也算有通過啦,不能說沒有通過對啊對啊對啊兩條"},{"start":29807.809,"end":29808.39,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29855.047,"end":29858.989,"text":"各位委員 各位委員 運理協調的差不多了吧"},{"start":29862.979,"end":29878.471,"text":"應該大家都有共識了吧 喬惠委員我們要把它處理完畢好不好"},{"start":29889.099,"end":29890.439,"text":"明天的議程"},{"start":29919.686,"end":29940.358,"text":"各位委員大家辛苦了辛苦了好那我們針對第6項修正條文第6條我們各位委員大家現在要不要請議事人員先讀一下大家剛才就共識了沒有嗎"},{"start":29953.985,"end":29954.566,"text":"我沒問題"},{"start":29968.769,"end":29969.51,"text":"我們行政單位我們處長"},{"start":29997.789,"end":30025.039,"text":"針對我們公使的部分你來做說明一下好不好好兄弟我請我們次長來做說明好不好剛剛有跟這個內閥員說明過就是部分公使在界定上不容易那我們不建議這個列入這一次的修法因為這個會出問題因為我到底要界定你是加班一小時還兩小時你出去哪裡或幹什麼這個很難去界定所以我們不建議把他納入這一次的修法"},{"start":30026.567,"end":30034.454,"text":"我跟你講因為這個是我們黨團內部有開過會的啦那我們在這邊也不宜擅自做決定啦那如果有爭議的條文我建議就是保留讓黨團協商來做處理這樣至少有處理啦"},{"start":30043.851,"end":30050.837,"text":"主席,我發言一下,剛才政治說會出事,我們是不是要理清一下,他們就說他們有討論啊,會出事,如何出事,你如果說明清楚一點,不可以稍稍的以後,說不說稍稍以後不好,要用心計較,這樣,大家不敢這樣,好不好,再叫政治講一下,因為這種的,我覺得,"},{"start":30071.494,"end":30094.027,"text":"我們要整個要合情合理啦我再補充一下我們在地方上都很清楚你出去在這個時間上以後在核銷上一定有人會盯著你看說你到底這個人去兩個小時還是一個半小時或一小時四五分鐘你只要去核銷去出問題整個就會出問題"},{"start":30096.108,"end":30122.265,"text":"現在我們因為乍領或者是相關的這個違法的事項最近3年總共有25件有7件已經判刑確定有這個18件目前在訴訟當中那我們都不希望說這樣的一個制度讓我們的民意代表很容易去處罰雖然他是無心或有心不管但是我們不願意有這個機制讓他可以讓他有機會去誤處罰法這是我們"},{"start":30124.626,"end":30129.033,"text":"才建議說把這個部分公式把他納到這個修法裡面"},{"start":30143.396,"end":30145.817,"text":"第6條先保留,我們先討論第7條"},{"start":30174.578,"end":30188.407,"text":"我們先討論第7條還是要我們先協商嗎?我們第7條就先協商好不好?來,鴻祿鴻祿,協商就要由你代表"},{"start":30206.145,"end":30206.485,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30218.947,"end":30219.748,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30236.775,"end":30237.316,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30266.715,"end":30269.037,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":30295.097,"end":30295.417,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30305.964,"end":30334.599,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":30335.651,"end":30350.077,"text":"第7條應該還好吧?第7條?第7條就是第一個年稅,所以其實大家都有公司的年稅,就是說7萬5千就一到事務費的基準去做,其實我一直在資訊中講一下貨物費用紀錄"},{"start":30359.1,"end":30360.181,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":30388.075,"end":30391.838,"text":"哎,只有星期五發假動耶,明天沒有。真的嗎?哎喲。"},{"start":30408.371,"end":30408.851,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30431.171,"end":30431.952,"text":"我們私底下加碼"},{"start":30446.469,"end":30458.997,"text":"我可以這樣說嗎?因為你們有你們的想法喔!我們還要找機會出席議員去讓議員,不是我們講真的啦!主委住在我們家,他想說他去參加"},{"start":30462.875,"end":30463.275,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30483.463,"end":30503.791,"text":"你現在是說公實的齁?對公實的我我也沒意見這我也沒提啊我沒提啊公實我們請助理你要立法他沒立法我們探議你要立法你要怎麼去領地其實有道理你看我都沒動我不敢動啦他沒在我們這裡做他在北圍做"},{"start":30513.642,"end":30514.184,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30527.659,"end":30528.16,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30557.239,"end":30557.259,"text":"議員：審查"},{"start":30574.11,"end":30585.457,"text":"是啊當然他還會換等一下換到你的政敵那邊就大麻了現在跟我們協商有啦他們在協商那牛我們小牛呢小牛沒有嫁婚吧是黃建斌嫁婚的我是去協助他們製的"},{"start":30601.457,"end":30609.622,"text":"叉管治療所以可以一直不動就提車震動嗎可以啊來不及提就趕快提車震動對啊"},{"start":30624.89,"end":30632.033,"text":"其實我真的覺得修法通過真的要很謹慎我們修法不要修那個魔靈兩口跟"},{"start":30650.461,"end":30653.506,"text":"部分工時我覺得那個那到底拿幾個題去溝通一下就好"},{"start":30662.719,"end":30669.606,"text":"我動都沒動這一些,我覺得我就動重點。有啦,今天36個,可能20個是我們的人提的吧。"},{"start":30680.797,"end":30695.421,"text":"對阿,所以阿,像他沒有來現場,沒有特別想部份使用全部都專職可是議員他也沒有管你一定要專職兼職阿我就搞不懂"},{"start":30711.013,"end":30712.174,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":30751.566,"end":30758.53,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30768.166,"end":30789.514,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":30792.432,"end":30819.667,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":30820.865,"end":30821.526,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30838.242,"end":30838.262,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":30868.06,"end":30869.561,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30880.686,"end":30891.232,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30896.795,"end":30897.115,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30916.496,"end":30918.217,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30935.222,"end":30936.283,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30950.549,"end":30951.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30987.863,"end":30988.064,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31013.268,"end":31014.209,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31028.866,"end":31051.983,"text":"你如果涵蓋在20%裡面是顧問公司的話那相對他等於是用顧問公司他不在助理裡面所以你現在用指揮 因為你是顧那顧用關係啊你也是顧用他 你用實心顧用他所以你變成指揮在助理的總委"},{"start":31057.066,"end":31065.829,"text":"我們沒有上線嘛因為有一些委員的版本是有上線嘛那我助理現在就說至少六人或是說至少幾人嘛我只有下線嘛"},{"start":31066.685,"end":31087.571,"text":"對阿對阿他剛才有說阿那現在多用嘛那現在多用就是說我如果說我有一些助理是可以用你們現在是容許他不一定按月就對了對就是因為如果說按月的話我最低薪資要27多萬如果說我可以有一些譬如說有幾個助理他是拿時薪的就一個小時兩百"},{"start":31088.471,"end":31088.952,"text":"總額已經確定"},{"start":31110.151,"end":31128.326,"text":"總有一天公了啦 總有一天公了 不能夠公了啦現在在講說 另一個部份你講話太沒意義一點嗎 還是太誇張一點沒有啦 可是他剛剛 我覺得他搞錯了 他剛以為說是不在這30萬裡面 啊我們一直是在這30萬裡面 可是不能理會分析嘛我覺得他有點搞錯了 請問一下"},{"start":31133.069,"end":31133.609,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31151.035,"end":31155.619,"text":"我們可以接受比如說二分之一還是三分之一"},{"start":31175.049,"end":31175.069,"text":"委員會議員會議"},{"start":31197.957,"end":31201.058,"text":"好啦 我們寫一下你們再參考看看好不好"},{"start":31223.704,"end":31225.365,"text":"我會講要定上線還是定下線?"},{"start":31244.079,"end":31266.407,"text":"我們本來的立法就是說用部分工資領薪水不能超過這一包的二分之一啊但你說這個二分之一太多我們可以往下降?二分之一太多啦太多了好那往下降這ok這個是ok的因為我覺得部分工資也不能變主流嘛所以四分之一四分之一或什麼的嘛如果四分之一的話我們現在是六個人啊不是啦人數不管我們是總額嘛"},{"start":31267.347,"end":31274.572,"text":"你說用錢來算一共有8位助理的話不要有2位以上沒有他真的是用額度"},{"start":31275.239,"end":31283.562,"text":"用總額比如30萬的6分之1或是5分之1差不多那個狀態他用前期的控制我只想要講這段話我等了一個下午就知道了下午的那個記憶比較好"},{"start":31306.544,"end":31306.684,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31333.357,"end":31334.178,"text":"5萬會不會太少?"},{"start":31349.48,"end":31353.221,"text":"30萬的六分之一我是說大概就六分之一五萬讓可以拼 會不會太少?"},{"start":31353.221,"end":31374.989,"text":"四分之一啦 因為四分之一啦 我們大約是八萬好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":31377.51,"end":31377.971,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31402.883,"end":31427.818,"text":"如果假設你們用這個,因為你們是副主啊,你們要小心啊,因為白天跟晚上時間的薪水是不一樣的。謝謝。其實都是依照勞基法嗎?對啊,勞基法有幾倍的啊,晚上都幾倍,一點三、三倍啊。要算清楚,對,假日初期。因為自己後面已經有寫了嘛,不用勞基法,所有東西都要頒給你啊。"},{"start":31431.8,"end":31458.217,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":31458.277,"end":31462.781,"text":"可是我們 但是我們當初是說這個 跟這個那現在如果再調的話 那兩天二十的話應該是"},{"start":31481.018,"end":31485.5,"text":"市長是我的?對啦你怎麼這樣說?我們就叫市長這樣說"},{"start":31510.729,"end":31527.36,"text":"因為一萬百分比算一算大概多少會增加一年增加12萬我就比年來的啦沒有啦沒有啦你現在算一萬嘛你算剩下一萬一年增加12萬對啊最後第三個問題應該OK啦"},{"start":31539.831,"end":31540.592,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31557.641,"end":31558.161,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31581.376,"end":31582.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":31603.817,"end":31629.922,"text":"來看你一下 看你一下你現在我們現在是規劃到六四五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五五"},{"start":31631.242,"end":31631.262,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":31654.885,"end":31662.689,"text":"16呢?你哪裡有資格去決定他們的薪水?好啦好啦我就不要堅持這個啦好啦好啦"},{"start":31689.381,"end":31699.905,"text":"好各位委員現在大家的協調好那現在我們的文字有做修改大家來看一下好不好"},{"start":31714.612,"end":31715.013,"text":"現在有了嗎?"},{"start":31715.981,"end":31716.461,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31757.044,"end":31760.867,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31774.394,"end":31780.098,"text":"各位委員在看修正。主席,不好意思。"},{"start":31787.113,"end":31812.823,"text":"各位委員在看的時候我是先肯定內政部也從善如流把這個日薪的一個部分給加進去那我們就是不超過這個總額的四分之一但是我還是拜託各位委員來共同看回來因為直轄市跟縣市議員真的他的服務員以及服務的人數以及相關的一個議事還是有所不同"},{"start":31813.743,"end":31823.774,"text":"那你現在變成是原本直轄市議員每個人每個月只有24萬你增加8萬變32萬那縣市議員一樣是增加8萬變從8萬變16萬那這樣會不會造成說有點沒有這個沒有看到說直轄市議員跟縣市議員的一個辛勞的一個不同"},{"start":31835.615,"end":31863.588,"text":"所以說其實以比例來講因為為什麼一開始直轄市議員是24萬縣市議員是只有8萬就是因為那個時候本來我們當初的設計概念就會覺得是說縣市議員當然都很辛苦但是就是說直轄市議員服務的範圍人數相對來講還是比較多那如果說我們這樣子齊頭市的增加其實這反而是有點虧待直轄市的議員啦所以我覺得說直轄市的議員32部分應該還是要再斟酌再多增加一些啦"},{"start":31866.543,"end":31894.622,"text":"所以我現在提出來我覺得是說大家真的應該要去考慮因為我們現在定下來這個是下一次再修正這一條說不定又是30年後啦所以我的意思是說大家既然在這邊我們應該要通盤的考量因為一開始縣市議員8萬直轄市議員24萬其實是差三倍喔其實是差三倍那現在這樣子調整之後變成只差兩倍這樣子其實有點奇怪不是"},{"start":31895.683,"end":31920.402,"text":"什麼叫進步很多我現在講的我現在講的理由是說應該是直轄市的議員略調增加的薪資的這個幅度應該要再高一點啦這個沒有幫誰講話說實在話大家也都有直轄市的執政大家也都有縣市議員對不對所以說我覺得應該是說大家應該要去做了解跟討論因為那個孟凱委員我要跟你報告"},{"start":31927.655,"end":31927.675,"text":"結束會議"},{"start":31942.611,"end":31949.418,"text":"好,那我們針對第6條修正條文好,那我們針對第6條大家的協商結果我請議事人員還有問題"},{"start":31984.575,"end":31988.317,"text":"你們都是高雄市議員出來的你們覺得這樣可以接受"},{"start":31993.459,"end":31998.472,"text":"這個不是喊價嘛我現在講是說你們依照你們依照你們現實的狀況去看啊"},{"start":32002.559,"end":32027.693,"text":"然後你增加我們增加到32之後國庫是增加了9000萬一年9000萬的支出所以我們要衡量整個我們今天一直在討論說村里長加呃呃為民服務費加好現在助理費加然後一路在討論的過程甚至協商的過程裡面我相信我們就不要再回頭又來挑戰我們這個是高雄市議員上來的這個"},{"start":32029.013,"end":32038.156,"text":"這個並不是回頭我們現在都還在第6條我們現在都還在第6條我們現在都還在第6條絕對沒有回頭你現在都還在討論第6條你們剛剛第6條就沒有通過就代表說這還有意見嘛那我現在在講的是說現在在講的是說我們是不是應該要做一個完善的考量來解決這題目"},{"start":32053.48,"end":32055.302,"text":"新進來的委員有一點點互相尊重好不好"},{"start":32080.383,"end":32082.204,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":32100.334,"end":32100.735,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":32124.185,"end":32126.186,"text":"委員：完整會議委員：完整會議"},{"start":32165.337,"end":32180.384,"text":"主席因為這個加的都不是加在自己身上第一他加的是一個總額總額也是分配到助理這邊你今天加的總額比較多是可以讓議員多聘請幾位助理"},{"start":32181.244,"end":32194.101,"text":"並不會說有一個助理就特別當然那就看議員自己去分配但是我們現在沒有把它限制嘛那我現在只提出來的是說是直轄市議員跟縣市議員都很辛苦那只是說對於直轄市議員來講是不是這樣子是有足夠其實我覺得"},{"start":32198.752,"end":32225.78,"text":"多幾萬塊的重點在於是說是不是符合實際的一個需求那大家都有曾有當過直轄市議員的經驗那你應該是直轄市議員這邊來講嘛不然你外界傳出去就說難道我不喜歡用政黨分配那難道是民進黨不想要給直轄市議員多一些助理費用嗎我覺得不用這樣講嘛所以我現在才講是說你現在都加8萬塊那是不是足夠如果對縣市議員也許"},{"start":32227.581,"end":32231.825,"text":"主席,在這我講一下,我講個不夠啦,因為你自己要做議員的時候,你也要自己去承擔自己的責任啦,因為長久以來大家最信在這裡,大部分都做過"},{"start":32252.315,"end":32259.599,"text":"當分議員起來：不知道議員會做立法會的訴求：要合理：說實在的我們也知道他沒有夠：所以今天要跟大家有 會知道高點坐到現在要討論這問題說實在大家也可以看40萬50萬也沒關係：要不然你未來這次要去選擇：跟這些年輕人一起討論的"},{"start":32282.172,"end":32285.174,"text":"黃孟楷 黃委員"},{"start":32309.894,"end":32330.167,"text":"來你今天這要這樣講那我就直接講來吳佩奕委員的版本36萬那個莊瑞雄委員的版本36萬羅美玲委員的版本36萬啊你們自己民進黨都已經有提出來有到36萬那你現在在講說我們是怎麼樣"},{"start":32333.369,"end":32353.723,"text":"他沒來然後你就不來我現在支持莊烈雄版本可以嗎?我支持羅美玲版本可以嗎?我支持吳佩儀委員版本可以嗎?就是真的地方有需求那另外可不可以尊重我的發言時間嘛我現在就講是說各委員都有委員的版本有到36萬那我現在是講是說"},{"start":32357.302,"end":32372.483,"text":"我現在在講話我現在在發言各委員都有不同的版本那我現在在講是說有沒有真的實際的需求那還有很多人都會比較台灣跟新加坡會覺得說哇新加坡為什麼這個政治相對憐憫"},{"start":32376.104,"end":32404.829,"text":"那台灣會成人也是因為你嗎?民進黨8年執政不是嗎?所以你有沒有好意思講現在執政黨是誰不要這樣子我說為什麼大家會覺得是說新加坡相對嚴明就是說新加坡他們給的相對給公務同仁也好給這個助理同仁也好他們的薪資相對來講都是比較高一點的那為什麼?就是防止他們去有貪念或是胡作非為嗎?所以如果說你都給的起香蕉你都請著起猴子嗎?"},{"start":32405.569,"end":32433.416,"text":"所以你照理講你應該是如果說我們今天的修法我就應該是放比較寬一點其實說真的這一些都不是為我們個人你可以去查我也沒有說我的這個什麼兄弟姊妹在議員啊所以說重點再一次說我們要看到的是說是不是這一次的一個修法是可以符合大家一個需求有符合嗎?莊瑞雄呢?吳佩儀呢?劉美玲呢?他們的"},{"start":32437.389,"end":32461.784,"text":"所以你現在所以你現在是民進黨團如果說民進黨用這樣的態度我真的沒有辦法討論一下我們都很理性的希望說能夠來做出討論那你行政部門也可以來表達意見我們今天都希望我我自始至終我都希望說今天是能夠送出委員會的"},{"start":32463.154,"end":32485.951,"text":"我們也從開始的時候主席在討論我剛剛第三條第五條我們都協助主席來共同把它變成會診制一個版本喔那我現在只是對於是說直轄市跟縣市真的確實還是有所差別嗎那你直轄市如果說多兩萬多四萬對於整體的一個財政是不是請行政部門這邊再說明一下那你直轄市這邊能夠負擔嗎"},{"start":32488.662,"end":32516.483,"text":"還有中央等一下討論第7條更是深水區等一下請中央也這邊回覆一下你們在提出來你們的版本的時候有沒有跟地方政府溝通過來請說你請問處長處長針對直轄市的議員我想這個案子齁在這個修正草案在擬議的過程當中我們都有跟地方去溝通過"},{"start":32517.697,"end":32545.939,"text":"不過當然相對的地方也都會講就是說他這個對要去修這樣的這個內容他沒有意見但是講到錢我講過了大家都說他沒錢但是我要特別講就是說跟各位委員報告就是說在這個制度上我們還是要維持那個制度不能因為說類似像這樣的修法然後都要把這個財政的都丟給中央那如果這樣還有哪一種不能丟給中央"},{"start":32547.583,"end":32548.043,"text":"吳孟楷委員 所長"},{"start":32577.387,"end":32590.198,"text":"可以吧?可以接受吧?不好意思這個因為講到第7條的部分就是中央跟地方那你們能不能講一下中央跟財政困難的部分是大概有多少個縣市啊?"},{"start":32592.386,"end":32618.84,"text":"因為今天我的質詢你的時候也是問了這一題啊那你剛剛我說主計處會針對財政困難的部分你們會專案來處理嘛對不對是那大概是哪幾個縣社會專案來處理這個這個中央補助報告委員這一部我手上沒有這些資料這個可能財主那邊比較有準備一下好不好我這邊大概只能跟委員報告就是說因為現在我們就有財政等級的劃分嘛"},{"start":32619.66,"end":32638.925,"text":"現在本來就1到5級那後面有幾個縣市都在5級他的財政狀況是比較不好的當然現在他的等級到底他能不能負擔這個這個我們要跟財主再去討論那這一份資料我們再請財主或是財主單位你來說明一下好不好因為等一下雖然現在談到第6條可是同樣的問題第7條也是一樣這個財政的問題到底是中央買單還是地方買單好謝謝"},{"start":32652.338,"end":32677.645,"text":"各位委員好主委總署報告這部分的話原則上依照依照現在現行的制度原則上相關的那個就是像議員的費用還有村里長事務補助費有關職俠師跟縣市政府的部分我們大概都是按照內政部的標準統一設算然後納入基本產生支出然後就基本產生收支就是不足的部分在於補助"},{"start":32678.385,"end":32698.644,"text":"那目前因為最新的狀態要114年的其實我們都會每年會重新估算但是若以113年度我們133年度的狀況來講目前22個地方政府沒有差短的部分的話原則上就是六都然後還有像新竹市還有金門縣目前這八個"},{"start":32700.285,"end":32715.834,"text":"那至於114年的部分可能要是未來修法的狀況還有我們其他比如說財源的部分再來決定就是說那個收支超短部分不行因為我們今天已經會談到這個部分你們要不要趕快去準備資料讓我們看到一下好不好"},{"start":32717.895,"end":32740.572,"text":"對阿你不能夠說這個法我們正在修的時候你告訴我114年還要按照這個法然後來你這樣子沒有一個依據嘛我們現在大家都在討論你們今天要來就是已經清楚知道會有幾個條文幾個核心的深水區那你們不準備資料來不行的今天召委已經說要處理到最後了所以你們趕快去準備好嗎謝謝"},{"start":32742.593,"end":32763.221,"text":"那現在趕快去準備好不好紅木開委員針對第6條主席那這樣子我們是不是第6條先保留我們先第7條吧"},{"start":32772.432,"end":32777.82,"text":"主席再者我還是強調我們今天討論的是不得超過多少額度"},{"start":32786.991,"end":32805.326,"text":"那事實的依照通過之後依照各縣市的一個狀況各直轄市的一個狀況他們去做編列我們訂的是一個母法嘛他們直轄市的議會他們自己去編列所以說如果說真的有一些直轄市他認為是說他有助理費用沒有用到那麼多的話他也可以不用編列到那麼多啊"},{"start":32806.848,"end":32831.625,"text":"但是你不能說這樣子你今天因為這一條我還是強調今天真的沒有說是哪一個部分而是我們現在討論的是因為這個已經幾十年沒有討論了那你如果說大家已經累積那麼久其實從第9屆就已經提出來要修第9屆沒修第10屆沒修到現在第11屆了那如果說你這樣子的變動根本"},{"start":32832.779,"end":32832.799,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":32856.5,"end":32858.061,"text":"各位委員先進因為本席有提版本"},{"start":32882.13,"end":32901.119,"text":"那事實上在上午的詢問當中、質詢當中我對次長要求的大概兩個部分首先我們很不希望讓外界認為我們是在幫地方民意代表爭取加薪現在在網路上很多批評其實我們是在幫助理要求合理待遇這是很清楚的"},{"start":32901.519,"end":32922.433,"text":"那這個拜託內政部一定要對外要很清楚的說明不是幫地方民意代表加薪是為地方選民服務的助理爭取合理待遇那我認為是合理那合理的話包括剛剛幾位委員說的包括說你這個因為物價等等那我比較著重的重點是因為本來是24萬對"},{"start":32924.835,"end":32925.035,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":32952.584,"end":32974.339,"text":"6都的縣市議員他們的助理他的負擔更重嘛因為相較之下6都的人口密集幅員較窄那非都的地方幅員較廣雖然人較少但是現在幾乎都是按照人口議員產生席次的人口選民數去換算所以過去呢是3比1那現在呢已經調到了2比1那我就覺得這個方向是對的"},{"start":32975.18,"end":32990.905,"text":"只是說我不是要求絕對金額我認為未來應該拉近都跟非都這些對於縣市地方民意代表他的助理他的合理服務因為他的服務的辛苦工作不是人越多他越辛苦"},{"start":32991.405,"end":33018.824,"text":"是因為服務員遼闊雖然人相對少但是呢應該給他合理的一個去為選民服務所必要的支出去制定這樣的情況所以我就兩點請求因為我知道草野協商剛剛關於這一條似乎有談到一個32跟16這比原來的也比原來的24對8我覺得已經拉近了都跟非都地方民意代表助理的待遇了但是呢應該要合理化應該要"},{"start":33020.738,"end":33024.927,"text":"盡量的拉齊啦那我對於絕對金額我沒有做訴求絕對金額訴求過度"},{"start":33029.909,"end":33052.056,"text":"會讓外界誤以為我們是要加薪水其實我要強調的是合理待遇不是加薪水合理就是說基於助理的付出他的辛勞應該給他能夠相應於包括物價指數在內包括他的服務的區域在內相對應的這個待遇這才是幫助理爭取他的權益的方法"},{"start":33053.156,"end":33080.252,"text":"後續可能後面還有包括原住民區跟非住民區的村里長的這些那是後面要談論的那個我沒有意見雖然屏東也很多我們不管是原住民區或非原住民區村里長都很辛苦所以我也是支持他們的事務費應該合理的調整但是我要強調的如果以原住民地區的村里長或原住民地區的這樣的一個差距其實反而是地廣人稀的助理他需要的待遇是應該要做調整"},{"start":33083.646,"end":33099.795,"text":"好謝謝各位同仁他在溝通他在溝通再休息5分鐘"},{"start":33114.48,"end":33128.746,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":33817.065,"end":33820.006,"text":"第6條我們都會先保留我們先討論第7條"},{"start":33822.028,"end":33840.996,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員大家辛苦了今天討論的很久我針對第7條提出修正動議針對美會委員的21人所凝聚地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務費補助的條例第7條的修正草案提出修正動議大家可以看到後面的附件"},{"start":33841.996,"end":33864.469,"text":"簡單來跟大家報告主要就是針對這個村里長平常這個行政事務非常繁忙所以就內政部現在提出給了這個7萬5的部分我這邊不管在內政委員會質詢或在財政委員會都溝通很多次我希望說這一部分我就是堅持可以免納所得稅因為這些錢第一個這些錢就給里長的部分這7萬5真的不是很多如果"},{"start":33869.371,"end":33869.832,"text":"拜託內政部部份"},{"start":33899.071,"end":33923.77,"text":"不妥。第二個還是要拜託就是說這個有關於這個金額的部分是不是拜託中央主管機關是不是來支應地方因為剛剛今天早上在質詢的時候很多委員也在擔心他說就是給這些比較沒有經費不足或比較貧困的縣市因為這個真的很不明確因為本身我在新北市新北市的里長都很認真"},{"start":33924.671,"end":33952.929,"text":"如果真的說新北市不納到裏面的話我們也要新北市政府早一點去瞭解這樣的情況他可以早一點來編裁員不然看的到吃不到真的是非常的可惜以上希望列入會議紀錄謝謝好謝謝我們張志隆委員所提出因為張志隆委員也是我們的會計師所以對於我們的前面所得稅這部分他非常有研究再來我們的高津召委"},{"start":33955.571,"end":33956.112,"text":"村里長事務補助費"},{"start":33971.324,"end":33999.518,"text":"行政院的版本是5萬塊然後在原住民族地區是增加10%剛剛我們議員已經增加20%了所以本席就建議在我的修正動議裡面大家看一下就把它改為20%然後是由全國公務人員各種加級年度通案調整的時候要比照他通案來調整幅度的調整"},{"start":34000.738,"end":34023.731,"text":"調整後的事務補助費的由實施日期由內政部來公告然後第二個部分就是剛剛志倫委員在講的那個稅的部分我相信美會委員還有其他民進黨委員都同意這個部分然後第三個部分我要提的就是剛剛講到了中央主管機關編列預算還是地方政府編列預算那等一下我們可以來討論這個部分好謝謝"},{"start":34025.848,"end":34032.712,"text":"主席,在這裡剛才我們的兩位委員有說過,因為這個要補稅不要補稅,我覺得第一點,你是為了他的,我覺得這叫人補稅,沒理啦"},{"start":34047.279,"end":34072.359,"text":"要不然在你當中我們會拜託政治及財政的看要如何處理比較好因為我有收到剛才高金樹召委說的原住民及20%我覺得這大家都沒有意見因為長久以來看到原住民的民意代表會合不來"},{"start":34074.557,"end":34099.383,"text":"因為我覺得改革的時候,我們一定會支持的啦,以上好,謝謝委員,來,立法院好,謝謝主席這邊就是在第7條我的意見都跟大家大同小異我只是要特別說因為原本讓原住民地區村里長每月5萬元的事務補助費我是原本說是再增加10%啦"},{"start":34100.743,"end":34123.233,"text":"但是剛才我們前面第5條已經把那個為民服務費已經改成20%了所以我這個部分也會跟著就是做20%的這樣的一個調整好謝謝對我會去簽好我就去簽那個版本謝謝其實跟各位委員報告其實里長的部分里長本來過去他的薪資他的事務費本來就只有"},{"start":34128.235,"end":34144.748,"text":"所以說你調聲你一定會訪問外面社會大眾都還會接受但是你議員跟我們立委就一樣你一調聲寬感就真的我們真的有壓力啦謝謝所以報告這個召委這個"},{"start":34155.529,"end":34156.07,"text":"請次長說一下報告立委"},{"start":34174.229,"end":34194.196,"text":"因為我們現在的村里長的名目是村賊慰勞金那以現行的直轄市的議員或者縣市議員那或者是鄉鎮市民代表的部分都是村賊慰勞金那現在目前都是有繳稅的"},{"start":34196.761,"end":34216.339,"text":"所以我們是不是建立一下這個村里長的部分那我們希望是朝向他不需要再去繳稅那所以這1.5個月的部分是不是我們就不要用這個春節慰問金的這個這個名稱那我們是不是改在春節期間就來加發這一個春節加發這一個事務補助費"},{"start":34222.045,"end":34228.147,"text":"市長針對台財稅第881923106號文村里長的事務費就是春節加發的部分他本來就"},{"start":34245.552,"end":34253.021,"text":"是作為村里的這個推廣之中所以同意也是比照財政部的這個75年10月14號的財財稅第7571030號的規定免納所得稅所以您剛講的部分大概就是以這個部分對"},{"start":34260.529,"end":34288.082,"text":"然後另外就是剛剛講的那個財源的部分就是剛剛也講了嘛我們那個財主單位講說其實剛剛算起來的話等於有14個縣市是財源是有困難的所以到時候你這個部分當真的這個我們今天的法案通過的時候你財源如果沒有的話這14個縣市要他們怎麼辦所以我覺得這個剛剛我們也有提出修正動議就是希望還是要由中央主管機關編列預算補貼地方政府"},{"start":34289.807,"end":34311.669,"text":"我想這一部分就財源的這一部分因為我們還必須跟這個財主單位去討論嘛你說今天我們說也不可能我特別有講過就是這些財源要中央來自應的話我們要通盤去考量整個各縣市的財源的收支情形所以說我可能要跟委員報告一下這一部分我們必須還要跟財主單位再去討論"},{"start":34313.38,"end":34333.333,"text":"因為他剛剛初步講的嘛說六都之外只有新竹市跟金門是沒有問題的那這樣算起來就是還有14個縣市是有問題的嘛所以說可能這個資料要出來之後我們才能知道中阿轉的機關有沒有辦法去補助給地方讓地方能夠支應這個財源支出啊謝謝委員"},{"start":34338.953,"end":34346.72,"text":"好,那我們現在先休息三分鐘,我們行政單位跟那邊來協調,來溝通。我們那個財政,剛才是那個財政部的嘛,主計總處嘛,主計總處的資料來了沒有?"},{"start":34358.001,"end":34358.602,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":34377.937,"end":34378.298,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34397.9,"end":34397.92,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":34414.939,"end":34415.519,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":34431.124,"end":34431.504,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34455.826,"end":34456.467,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":34469.483,"end":34469.803,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34486.045,"end":34486.746,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":34511.869,"end":34538.933,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":34542.653,"end":34542.673,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":34573.147,"end":34573.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34605.946,"end":34618.35,"text":"你現在改成事務補助費加發春節的部分就對了,是嗎?就是春節加發?對,不好意思"},{"start":34621.391,"end":34621.911,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":34642.169,"end":34644.37,"text":"社會福利保險師"},{"start":34663.695,"end":34691.681,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":34694.169,"end":34707.462,"text":"來拿麥克風講一下你們內政部本來預計行政院版本要怎麼寫這一條在這一個部分你們又要有免稅的精神然後又其實是加發1.5個月嘛 對不對那你們本來寫是這樣寫嗎對"},{"start":34713.598,"end":34733.024,"text":"包委員本來是寫春節慰勞金阿因為春節慰勞金就會跟現在的直轄市議員縣市議員鄉鎮市民代表他們會一樣所以就會納稅那今天就把這樣的名目把它換掉就不要說這個是為了他放他進客人口袋然後在那邊講說阿這個就是要慰勞他或什麼"},{"start":34733.578,"end":34734.359,"text":"我剛有提那個"},{"start":34761.232,"end":34779.828,"text":"衛福部的請教過的那個二代健保也不用繳齁所以我就希望說就這個特別要小心就是讓里長這個七萬五千塊的部分可以完整的拿到對然後現在以其數額以新台幣五萬元為基準計算之這個部分會不會讓人家覺得"},{"start":34789.468,"end":34810.232,"text":"你最主要就是說,我們拿去一戶半月啦,跟他一戶五萬塊啦,所有一戶半月,跟他七萬五啦,是不是這樣?對啦對啦,隨著公告啦"},{"start":34815.249,"end":34840.225,"text":"要調整的時候隨著軍公教會調新對在調請問一下你現在是以數額是以新台幣五萬嗎那是因為現在的事務費是五萬嗎那如果下次事務費又調成五萬五的話我說如果是這樣對所以這個地方就又要再修了嗎所以說我的意思是說你要寫五萬嗎還是說要以那個"},{"start":34842.125,"end":34844.947,"text":"他春節?他怎麼會放在口袋?他現在每個月都放在口袋"},{"start":34859.249,"end":34861.752,"text":"每個月五萬塊都放在口袋不是這樣解釋不是這樣解釋"},{"start":34880.991,"end":34881.731,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34902.284,"end":34913.567,"text":"因為現在大家都認為是1.5個月的這個加發這個事務春節事務補助費嘛你現在寫以數而已新台幣五萬就會讓人家覺得只有五萬啦而不是七萬五啦"},{"start":34918.106,"end":34918.306,"text":"最後這個"},{"start":34947.068,"end":34970.301,"text":"期數而以新台幣5萬元為基準計算支的那個部分把它拿掉然後寫是以第一項第一項為主啦好不好可以嗎來我們文字我們文字來修一下來這個麥克風那麼小聲哪一支比較大聲"},{"start":34972.312,"end":34985.296,"text":"我們大家都要 喔 好像差不多捏 要吼的耶 這是怎麼樣來看一下 來看一下我們 未來如果說事務補助費有再調整的話他也一併調整 就不會說再 你會變成是說"},{"start":34988.379,"end":34988.399,"text":"第7條"},{"start":35004.808,"end":35030.533,"text":"我們這個村里長的鄉公所參照軍公教人員年終工作獎金發給規定編列預算於春節期間另發給事務補助費,對比其數額以第一項也就是一這個七萬五一七萬五千五元的事務補助費數額為基準算支這樣的文字大家就比較沒有疑慮了對不對對這樣比較清楚了"},{"start":35034.793,"end":35059.907,"text":"其金額以第1項事務補助費數額為基準計算支來,罰物的部分有沒有在不要到時候你就略有意見了說法說明的部分我們是不是加上免稅要不然一般人可能不是那麼清楚吧"},{"start":35064.85,"end":35087.242,"text":"來來來我們防禦部份來看一下這個文件因為他事務費本來就沒得補了啦所以現在就是怎麼會改這個名稱就是今天如果說春節那裡一定要補水所以才改這個名稱啦所以一定不用的啦"},{"start":35090.735,"end":35090.755,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":35123.561,"end":35123.581,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":35147.171,"end":35168.018,"text":"請問一下剛剛每個縣市的那個財源的部分那張資料可以印給我們嗎好那我們現在繼續開會喔"},{"start":35172.274,"end":35174.275,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":35195.227,"end":35196.408,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":35222.442,"end":35222.843,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":35246.99,"end":35247.69,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":35272.576,"end":35273.097,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35291.152,"end":35311.834,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":35311.994,"end":35313.635,"text":"大陸市的地方有困難"},{"start":35349.281,"end":35351.744,"text":"那你既然中央提出來你就應該中央來去做一個全額的分配"},{"start":35377.38,"end":35379.763,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":35386.408,"end":35386.428,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":35411.755,"end":35411.955,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35423.651,"end":35424.252,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":35448.148,"end":35448.888,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35471.842,"end":35474.944,"text":"修正草案等37案"},{"start":35497.277,"end":35497.698,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35514.987,"end":35516.567,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":35536.676,"end":35544.558,"text":"你可以看明年編那你明年編還是你們執政那你們執政你們明年總預算把它放進來阿好啦真的要表決成績賣弄吉吉爛喔"},{"start":35567.02,"end":35591.427,"text":"我支持你!我支持你!你不要這樣!我支持你!最近有什麼呢?美惠姐看起來很漂亮喔!我支持你!中央要買單的代謝民意代表負擔好!支持!支持!好!你看他也支持!不要陳其邁支持他就支持算了!"},{"start":35597.312,"end":35621.476,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":35627.694,"end":35637.178,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":35644.58,"end":35651.762,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":35671.226,"end":35673.288,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":35697.904,"end":35698.766,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35710.214,"end":35711.035,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":35728.575,"end":35744.582,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":35746.123,"end":35747.063,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":35790.441,"end":35795.243,"text":"美會議委員站。對,我本來就是這樣啊,要叫人訂准。看要怎麼修。"},{"start":35813.713,"end":35815.373,"text":"中央要請客要買單啦"},{"start":35821.616,"end":35821.976,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35855.319,"end":35859.88,"text":"現在是中央買單真的我們從早上一直失手到現在很血汗這裡"},{"start":35885.66,"end":35885.8,"text":"主席"},{"start":35905.538,"end":35905.778,"text":"只是"},{"start":35935.916,"end":35958.749,"text":"主席我建議是不是我們條文兩個黨團的委員都可以接受的條文就先寫出來如果說這樣可以的話今天就做成結論就可以確定嘛那行政部門因為今天次長他剛剛就講說沒有被授權我覺得這樣不可能說委員在這邊審查然後那如果沒有被授權那這樣子就請部長來啊"},{"start":35960.54,"end":35988.09,"text":"那之後就要請部長來啦不然我們這樣子變成是說大家沒有一個溝通的如果部長沒有辦法決定那這樣就要請秘書長來啊但是主席我們是不是先把條文給我們兩黨能夠接受的條文就先把它給寫下來因為這樣子我們才能夠確定嘛那其實剛剛第6條你也寫了嘛所以說我們就都寫下來那如果說OK的話大家就是確定這樣的版本啊這樣好不好"},{"start":36003.193,"end":36014.843,"text":"這個各位 這個我們這個條文該怎麼寫 我們拜託內政部跟主席這邊看怎麼去用我們等一下 那我們後面的趕快來處理啦 還有兩個"},{"start":36016.573,"end":36017.713,"text":"現在我們繼續討論第8條第7條政定之一"},{"start":36040.785,"end":36051.591,"text":"趙偉你累了嗎?所以我們的工作同仁、行政單位不好意思大家辛苦了"},{"start":36068.265,"end":36069.306,"text":"徵定第7條至1條文"},{"start":36086.297,"end":36088.139,"text":"民意代表規範無幾值?"},{"start":36107.301,"end":36121.85,"text":"那他沒有所談的或懲處的這些東西都不需要因為他也有兼職所以他就沒有所謂的退職金或撫恤金的問題這個可能要跟委員報告一下因為他跟公務人員又不太一樣跟地方首長也不一樣"},{"start":36124.213,"end":36152.172,"text":"當然你實務上你基本上你做了超過5屆的里長年紀也超過65歲基本上你當然就是一輩子都在做這個事情了嘛對不對你怎麼可以講說他有個兼職或怎麼樣呢所以事實上幫我們爭取一些福利我想是有必要的我們今天早上在答詢的時候我們講嘛就是說要做我們就一次到位那這其實是蠻多基層里長的一些需求希望可以被成全那剛剛次長有講嘛就是說這個理論上來講他將選舉選出了民意代表可是過去其實過去曾經在鄉鎮市市長的時候他們其實也有相關的一些機制啦"},{"start":36152.332,"end":36152.452,"text":"來那個次長"},{"start":36181.506,"end":36208.729,"text":"我覺得啦村里長他的他領的是事務補助費還是領的是薪水我剛剛特別講他是無給子的所以他不是薪水嘛那既然不是薪水就沒有後面的所謂的這個撫恤金或者退資金的問題因為以現行的法令他本來就是沒有這樣的規範"},{"start":36211.177,"end":36230.75,"text":"我是建議各位委員我們想一下雖然村里長你說20年65歲但很多民意代表連地方的議員村民意代表他們其實也都很多符合這個資格那如果這個村里長有這樣那其他的我們怎麼辦這要思考一下沒有"},{"start":36239.181,"end":36239.862,"text":"總要有一點點進步 以上"},{"start":36265.114,"end":36286.372,"text":"針對第7條之一的條文當然還有沒什麼意見我們現在修的這一條是地方民意代表費用跟村里長事務費補助條例嘛地方民意代表已經明確的非常清楚在第二條裡面就講的是包括鄉鎮市民代表副主席代表等沒有包含村里長"},{"start":36288.054,"end":36309.691,"text":"現在7條1有兩個委員的版本我們不堅持陳昌明委員版本就沒有堅持說把地方民意代表納進來但是村里長的部分其實是大家可以討論的嘛那村里長的部分其實他相對來講他的定義你剛也講就是說地方首長是有這樣的一個這個退職金嘛"},{"start":36310.251,"end":36336.802,"text":"所以我就說授權中央他去訂立相關的一個機制那你們也可以去算一下甚至我不知道說現在有沒有資料目前以我們現在的這樣的一個這樣的一個資格滿20年跟65歲有全國有多少村里長委員這一部分我手上沒有那如果說沒有要不要去算一下或什麼這樣子你才能夠抓一個大概啊對不對"},{"start":36337.967,"end":36347.532,"text":"我覺得這樣子其實合理為什麼因為對於里長村里長來講其實他一生等於是都奉獻而且村里長做的事情就是真的你說"},{"start":36348.935,"end":36369.632,"text":"幫助政府做事發投票通知單防疫的時候然後清潔李林的這個巡視其實這都村里長做啊所以他跟內政部一定是最好的朋友最好的夥伴啊那我們現在只是講是說在這個部分你去算一下還是說這個條件要不要再調整我覺得這個可以提出來討論"},{"start":36371.033,"end":36397.314,"text":"那你應該去算出來說現在全國這樣子會有多少人符合這個資格那我們再來講嘛但你不要說一竿子就直接沒有好不好委員這樣子啦齁我們因為這個涉及到退這個補習金或者退職金的問題是不是因為今天前續部有來是不是請前續部說明一下好不好來前續部麻煩好前續部"},{"start":36403.261,"end":36427.168,"text":"委員各位與會我們這邊是全序部因為這個其實主要還是涉及到地制法還有補助條例的這個規定我們尊重這個內政部的一些這個意見 謝謝這樣就是沒問題啊政治"},{"start":36433.09,"end":36436.033,"text":"村里長有可能有領別的薪水"},{"start":36459.554,"end":36476.843,"text":"有可能他可以兼職所以村里長他有可能65歲他有別的退職金他有可能有別的那跟這個我們定下去之後那可能多做一些討論啦這個也不要去影響到村里長的權益"},{"start":36478.396,"end":36501.318,"text":"因為我們也不能把所有的項目都全部把它包進來啦因為這個影響的比如說我們這個村里長到底要不要去他這個幾年之後去領這個退職金或甚至於這個其他費用我覺得這個要大家再去形成共識要不然的話如果我們每一個項目一直都在增加那增加不完"},{"start":36503.394,"end":36525.868,"text":"因為這個我們上一次檢討這個東西也是好幾十年以前了嘛所以我才講嘛既然要檢討我們就把它一次到位嘛免得到說過了幾年又來一次對不對大家又要從早上9點一直搞到現在對不對大家也蠻辛苦的所以你剛剛我覺得講的有部分道理就是說如果他有監職他應該被排除那我覺得這個透過立法的法條把它納進去這個我覺得可以接受也合理啦但是我覺得本體上還是該給一點獎勵因為實務上我們都清楚嘛"},{"start":36530.371,"end":36530.892,"text":"少數的里長可能有兼職"},{"start":36552.688,"end":36576.87,"text":"但是大多數一定都是專職還有這個裡面的標準是任職滿20年就是5屆等於是通過5次的民意的考驗那一個地方的里或那一個地方的村都認為說他是適合的那既然這樣的話他又有通過民意的考驗他又有任職那麼長還有退職金的發放地方首長是不是一次性"},{"start":36577.884,"end":36598.887,"text":"是一次性嘛那一樣嘛我們現在也講是一次性嘛所以說他也不是退休金的概念你剛剛有委員一直講說啊里長沒有薪水那我們講如果說那是退休金那就那就可長可久那就很麻煩但現在退職金是一次性所以我認定還比較屬於這是榮譽的概念"},{"start":36599.608,"end":36613.329,"text":"比如說你65歲然後你真的就是卸下里長的這個職務之後政府感謝你過去這個付出幾十年的付出對鄉里的付出所以我給你一個榮譽退職金一個榮譽的獎勵我覺得這是榮譽的概念啊"},{"start":36617.734,"end":36641.582,"text":"委員我想這個因為如果假設是光是村里長的部分那我們剛剛特別有提到所有這個民意代表無給職的部分也都會比較要去討論這個退職的問題不過我法條就沒有寫這個東西啊那我們原來也沒有寫說村里長我們就沒有把民意代表納進來啊我們現在就沒有討論地方民意代表我們現在只有討論村里長啊所以這沒有自肥啊還在場有村里長是不是"},{"start":36644.164,"end":36669.404,"text":"沒有 這不是製賊部分 我們現在真的就是希望是說感謝 這個要討論要整個制度來討論而不是當你把這個村里長抓出來的時候去討論村里長的部分 是 不只有村里長的特性是介於民意代表跟行政末梢之間嘛我講其他人都是民意代表民意代表民意代表有些規則嘛對不對 但里長的角色就不純然是民意代表可是如果單純從服務的角度上來講那縣市議員也是一樣在服務啊"},{"start":36669.929,"end":36670.769,"text":"我們現在對村里長的定位是他接受這個這個"},{"start":36692.153,"end":36712.808,"text":"市公署的鄉鎮市公署的指揮監督來交付公務是公務的所以他是不是行政末梢他是行政末梢嘛對不對所以你當然是應該比較靠行政的角度來思考他的待遇你如果講說每一件事我們都要推到尾那沒完沒了因為我們今天其實本來有列在法條裡但我們願意讓補什麼出國考察費啊為民服務費我們都沒有堅持嘛"},{"start":36713.628,"end":36741.563,"text":"總要一進一退總要有一點點進展是不是所以我覺得這一條已經相對來講對政府的負擔已經是最小的而且它也它是它不是所有人都有你要能夠五連霸不見得五連霸現在連續做五任年紀又要夠高這個相對對你財政的負擔也是比較小的小花一點小錢但是可以照顧基層的里長我認為是非常划算好不好我想這一部分我們還要必須要來這個這個我們先把那個資料先收集好再來在這個公司"},{"start":36742.734,"end":36759.927,"text":"主席,在這要跟我們正式說一下,因為在很久的年紀,有提起說我們里長退休的時候,要有退休金,後來實施沒多久的時候,有一些爭議又開了,我說"},{"start":36763.61,"end":36763.79,"text":"主席"},{"start":36777.853,"end":36787.359,"text":"所以說,這種人要說大家要這樣處理的時候,我們沒有反對,只是說你現在的顧問,你又一直服務費,為了這個千萬元,想要偷竊那年,現在又現在又要退休金,跟退休金你要怎樣去處理,怎樣去用,來政治回答一下"},{"start":36800.256,"end":36822.811,"text":"委員我是這樣想因為所有任何法條我們也不可能一次全部把它這個修完那所以為什麼說法條必須要滾動式去檢討的原因在這裡那我們不必這個現在還沒有大家有共識的法條部分我們不需要急現在就把它去修啦我覺得要形成社會共識以後我們再來修"},{"start":36823.393,"end":36842.552,"text":"那個政治,在這,我是覺得說提供的也沒有過分的要求啦,因為等我一來看到里長的身口,我們本來我是說,要怎麼可以合理化,我覺得這個是不是你們要去研議一下,因為大家都說實在的"},{"start":36846.575,"end":36850.759,"text":"我想這個村里長很辛苦這個我想大家都都是持正面來看待"},{"start":36869.042,"end":36877.48,"text":"那這一部分我們可以再來去檢討因為我想這個議題也不是今天才出現的議題這應該以前就已經有出現這樣的議題我們會再來做檢討"},{"start":36881.408,"end":36911.408,"text":"6屆6屆6屆"},{"start":36911.588,"end":36911.828,"text":"謝謝謝謝抱歉"},{"start":36940.476,"end":36967.156,"text":"吃人嘴軟喔沒關係因為要提供我婚姻的雜訊所以要提供婚姻的食品我要支持所以兩天加起來他們也會支持所以互相讓你說一下我都背不開"},{"start":36968.26,"end":36975.042,"text":"我不敢吃,我不敢吃,他要說這樣,我這樣,不要,我不敢吃,真的,謝謝你,不要,不要,不要,我阿嬤大嘴啦"},{"start":36989.27,"end":37000.376,"text":"現在孩子們還沒回阿嬤那裡小孩子們先唱我們的歌都會回阿嬤那裡這樣子阿不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要不要"},{"start":37020.338,"end":37020.758,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":37027.416,"end":37029.898,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":37069.564,"end":37069.584,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":37085.47,"end":37086.951,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期內政委員會議"},{"start":37107.819,"end":37107.839,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":37132.693,"end":37138.48,"text":"現在我們增淀第7條之一先行保留我們現在處理第8條"},{"start":37143.403,"end":37156.772,"text":"第8條的部分因為在原住民的議員第5條裡面在這個付表裡面修正為增加20%也就是原住民的直轄市議員4萬變成4萬8然後原住民的縣市議員2萬變成2萬4這個部分已經通過了所以我在第8條裡面就不堅持了"},{"start":37165.698,"end":37194.659,"text":"再來就是村里長的事務費原住民村里長的事務費在第7條的第1項裡面也增加了20%就是原住民的村里長是5萬塊變成6萬塊這個部分都有被處理到了不管是原住民的議員、直轄市的議員、縣轄市的議員或者是我們的村里長的事務費在第5條跟第7條都有被處理了所以呢在第8條我就不堅持好不好以上做一些補充說明大家辛苦到現在真的"},{"start":37195.439,"end":37199.061,"text":"我再次感謝民進黨的美惠、博裕、黃婕、紅鹿、國民黨的孟凱、小妞、宇珍、志倫、建廷、建兵、我們現在民進黨6.50,大家好好都有共識。以上補充說明,謝謝。"},{"start":37224.414,"end":37233.58,"text":"好謝謝第8條就為此現行條文好謝謝好那我們繼續討論第9條來請放開56頁"},{"start":37254.559,"end":37257.802,"text":"好,那第9條就維持現行票案"},{"start":37275.968,"end":37280.192,"text":"好,那我們處理第10條。第10條是什麼?幾月幾號上?上?看最後的結果嗎?欸?阿沒有,阿是什麼時候要發話?"},{"start":37302.791,"end":37330.14,"text":"主席第10條就請我們次長第10條部分是事情日期我們就114年1月1號了同意那第10條就照我的版本通過好不好好修正同意吧"},{"start":37334.248,"end":37334.868,"text":"第6條和第7條一起討論"},{"start":37359.212,"end":37383.427,"text":"那我們選擇單位第7條之一政店的條文第7條之一等文字版本一起出來我們看一遍嘛現在就是三個文字版"},{"start":37386.555,"end":37409.511,"text":"6771文字版本出來我們看一遍好那我們現在是欸孟楷孟楷那我們先休息5分鐘好不好好那我們現在再休息5分鐘喔阿現在我們議事人員換個便當好不好謝謝吃不下去啦政府要賭他啦"},{"start":37412.796,"end":37415.917,"text":"第一次吃晚間便當年真的吃飯喔"},{"start":37428.302,"end":37449.428,"text":"獎勵"},{"start":37449.764,"end":37450.284,"text":"對阿!對啊!對啊!"},{"start":37481.441,"end":37481.961,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":37494.446,"end":37494.587,"text":"主席"},{"start":37514.941,"end":37516.182,"text":"下個會期總預算的時候11點都有"},{"start":37539.154,"end":37554.543,"text":"下一個會期總預算11點08分那種都有然後大家都爆一堆預算書在那邊拍啊總預算我有試過那種晚上跑完清晨再回來審9點多然後跟人家換班"},{"start":37565.909,"end":37571.051,"text":"最後拍!最主要政府補助阿公阿嬤的車阿嬤的車阿嬤的車阿嬤的車阿嬤的車"},{"start":37601.067,"end":37610.725,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":37611.516,"end":37611.977,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":37634.731,"end":37635.531,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":37650.981,"end":37673.37,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":37675.87,"end":37676.791,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":37714.683,"end":37717.686,"text":"沒了沒了沒了"},{"start":37733.038,"end":37733.058,"text":"議員：審查"},{"start":37759.289,"end":37760.53,"text":"謝謝書記長壓正 來加油"},{"start":37781.065,"end":37782.166,"text":"教育文化委員會暫時結束了。"},{"start":37798.404,"end":37825.981,"text":"欸?"},{"start":37827.562,"end":37850.962,"text":"趕快吃啦趕快吃啦 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃 早餐也要吃"},{"start":37852.863,"end":37861.586,"text":"拜託你這樣子說蠻多的他沒有櫃子的啊我倒覺得這樣比較好不然的話我說實在有點類似說我們補助第7屆然後...沒得了沒得了"},{"start":37873.609,"end":37880.632,"text":"我叫他們選我叫他們選的選我如果說我們要去參加要坐10點40人藝人跟我講說百分之百不會去我說我們金錢也有再來藝人說還能跑差不多12點46就很不錯了可以啦"},{"start":37900.962,"end":37900.982,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":37930.419,"end":37930.439,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":37967.567,"end":37979.576,"text":"好 我們各位委員現在我們先處理第7條我們協商的條文是不是請我們議事人員先讀一下"},{"start":37985.215,"end":37985.738,"text":"全部限度嗎?"},{"start":37986.994,"end":38014.843,"text":"第7條村里長由鄉鎮市區公所編列村里長事務補助費每村里每月新台幣5萬元與原住民族地區之村里每月再增加20%並因於全國公務人員各種家籍年度通案調整時比照其通案調整幅度調整調整後之事務補助費總額及實施日期由內政部公告之村里長因植物關係因由鄉鎮市區公所編列預算支應其保險費並得編列預算支應其健康檢查費其標準均比照地方"},{"start":38015.583,"end":38035.234,"text":"民意代表鄉鎮市區公所編列前項保險費預算應包含投保保險金額新台幣500萬元以上傷害保險之保險費金額村里長出有正當理由未能投保或未足額投保傷害保險外與當年度檢據支領保險費時期單據應包含投保保險金額新台幣500萬元以上傷害保險之保險費"},{"start":38036.235,"end":38063.814,"text":"村里長由鄉鎮市區公所參照軍公教人員年終工作獎金發給規定編列預算與春節期間另發給事務補助費其金額以第一項事務補助費數額為基準計算支該支出由內政部編列預算支應支宣讀完畢主席沒有意見啦還有意見"},{"start":38075.125,"end":38075.605,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":38089.616,"end":38112.824,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":38113.084,"end":38130.864,"text":"並因於全國公務人員各種加緊年度通案調整時比照其通案調整幅度調整。調整後之助理補助費總額及實施日期由內政部公告之。以前向助理補助費補助聘用之助理直下是議會議員每人應至少聘用6人,先是議會議員每人應至少聘用2人,均與議員同進退。"},{"start":38132.525,"end":38159.743,"text":"議員得聘以日薪計支助理其日薪累計支月總支出不得超過前項助理補助費用總額四分之一前項助理適用勞動基準法之規定其勞工保險費全民健康保險費勞工退休準備金加班費不休假加班費資遣費及職業災害補償等依法令應由雇主負擔費用部分由議會於不超過第一項規定總額20%內編列預算支應支並得以索領補助費制額度比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金酌給春節慰勞金"},{"start":38163.946,"end":38185.239,"text":"議會應就各議員有關第一項第二項助理補助費總額與分配情形助理聘用關係及第三項所列各項費用之指引情形建立內部控制制度。宣讀完畢宣讀完畢主席先看一看"},{"start":38193.913,"end":38198.677,"text":"我們現在處理第6條協商條文如果大家都沒問題就剛剛先讀這協商條文通過沒問題"},{"start":38206.593,"end":38208.974,"text":"現在我們先讀第7條條文之一"},{"start":38238.562,"end":38240.222,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":38269.735,"end":38290.027,"text":"好,那我們現在那個條文還沒印好,我們現在先休息一下。好,我們先來休息。蔣偉 休息一下,你休息一下。我本來要說大家先看一個,有意見再說,待會再分。"},{"start":38293.866,"end":38294.246,"text":"主席"},{"start":38324.485,"end":38325.866,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":38341.314,"end":38342.575,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":38363.298,"end":38363.438,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":38392.966,"end":38393.287,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":38406.815,"end":38421.561,"text":"這是什麼?看來啦沒問題就沒問題啦阿你幹嘛?阿你沒被責啦?不用吧?阿現在就宣布不當了對不對?這個應該要..."},{"start":38434.066,"end":38445.87,"text":"就是退籍後嗎?還是只要年滿就給他表?你自己的意思應該是說不管有沒有退籍,只要你滿這個條件,就給你表?就資深裡的表?所以這樣,但是"},{"start":38459.134,"end":38465.88,"text":"加在每年的優秀自身里長表揚大會裡面就好了。"},{"start":38475.047,"end":38475.387,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":38502.528,"end":38522.223,"text":"有40分的嗎?有的有的有40分的嗎?40分到底幾分?到底喔?9點10分10點13分沒有啦10點13分沒有啦10點13分"},{"start":38528.393,"end":38529.273,"text":"還是病表揚?雞還是病?"},{"start":38553.53,"end":38553.93,"text":"終於終於"},{"start":38580.277,"end":38606.61,"text":"其實大家就看這個上面就如果確定就可以了也不一定一定要印出來阿好啦你印出來啦主席不好意思我看應該大家都有共識麻煩主席第7條之一請先讀協商條文請各位委員有沒有意見第7條之一"},{"start":38608.939,"end":38626.792,"text":"第7條之一村里長任職滿六屆且年滿65歲者應給予慰勞金及表揚其額度及知己辦法由內政部定定之宣讀完畢好宣讀完畢請各位委員"},{"start":38628.806,"end":38635.289,"text":"我要請問一下 這條也是適用於每年的84年1月1號喔來 我現在請處長回答1月1號嘛1號是適用嘛好好好 那各位大家還有沒有意見好 沒有意見就條文通過喔好"},{"start":38661.47,"end":38668.034,"text":"委員徐欣穎等提案修正第3條照徐欣穎委員及劉建國委員等修正動議通過"},{"start":38685.981,"end":38707.707,"text":"委員陳穎等提案修正第5條、委員陳書悅等提案修正第5條及護表。照第5條護表修正通過。第6條、第7條、增訂第7條之一照協商條文通過。"},{"start":38709.059,"end":38716.967,"text":"第8條維持現行法條文第9條維持現行法條文第10條照吳啟明委員等修正動議通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":38736.793,"end":38754.085,"text":"復旦協議復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了復旦協議已經先讀了"},{"start":38761.332,"end":38774.578,"text":"補正宣告第5條條文照原條文護表維持原條文護表照修正動議通過很厲害欸你有在靠直播時間抓得真好你時間抓得真好我以為你要說更長我以為已經在7點"},{"start":38789.496,"end":38796.401,"text":"因為給了多的額度也給了部分工資可以交代過去來"},{"start":38812.901,"end":38815.443,"text":"他說不要讓自己加班,就反過來加班"},{"start":38829.073,"end":38829.373,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":38850.546,"end":38851.687,"text":"沒有要處理的事"},{"start":38871.822,"end":38871.842,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":38899.367,"end":38900.007,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":38934.531,"end":38955.627,"text":"好各位委員我們的各位委員我們附帶結議就不處理照剛才協商結論通過請各位有沒有異議沒有異議本次會議審查通過之條文相關法之用於授權本席議事的演整理"},{"start":38957.233,"end":38975.988,"text":"那討論事項．地方民意代表費用支給及村里長的事務補助費條例第6條修正草案等37案．已並案審查完盡．擬計審查報告提報院內討論"},{"start":38980.851,"end":38985.353,"text":"請問在場委員需不需要經過黨團協商?"},{"start":38985.353,"end":39005.181,"text":"不用那不需經過黨團協商那本案與院會討論時有本事與召集委員齊名做補助說明那本日會議到此結束"},{"start":39006.348,"end":39006.628,"text":"明天繼續開會"},{"start":39032.84,"end":39033.881,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":39050.133,"end":39050.673,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":39078.371,"end":39078.676,"text":"本集完"}]}},{"id":"15889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15889","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db35675eb71f9bc6ae5e5a7d9476abbdb33be8d109af184be4474347c945e5942d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-08","start_time":"2024-05-08T08:30:45+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:10:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13155,"委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1693.741,"end":1693.781,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":1815.857,"end":1825.612,"text":"請主密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人以主法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1827.426,"end":1835.352,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事入時間113年4月29日星期一9時至10時23分,5月1日星期三9時至11時26分,5月2日星期四9時至13時56分,地點紅樓101會議室出席委員鄭天才委員等14人。"},{"start":1850.422,"end":1877.488,"text":"列席委員洪孟楷委員等26人列席人員113年4月29日星期一5月1日星期三經濟部長王美花及相關人員主計總署代表113年5月2日星期四經濟部長王美花國發會副主委高仙貴財政部政事李慶華勞動部發展署組長施淑慧等及相關人員法務部參事林豐文主席楊昭吉委員瓊英"},{"start":1879.388,"end":1891,"text":"4月29日星期一報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管"},{"start":1892.908,"end":1913.935,"text":"臺灣自來水股份有限公司決議甲經濟部主管一臺灣自來水股份有限公司一業務計劃因依據營業收支生產成本轉投資重大之建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二營業收支一營業總收入334億2797萬3000元照列營業總支出不含所得稅費用356億9459萬3000元照列"},{"start":1921.217,"end":1949.165,"text":"稅前競選22億6662萬元照列。（三、生產成本隨同營業總支出審查結果調整。（四、轉投資計畫無劣數。（五、重大制建設事業。（原列281億6558萬6千元。（配合113年度中央政府總預算審議結果簡略水利署及所屬第三目水利建設及保育管理第三節水資源開發及維護向下投資大安大甲"},{"start":1950.025,"end":1977.111,"text":"施聯通管工程計劃一億五千萬元本項應隨同修正簡列專案計劃繼續計劃大安大甲施聯通管工程計劃一億五千萬元簡列專案計劃繼續計劃鳥嘴潭人工湖下游自來水供水工程七億八千萬元共計簡列九億三千萬元區域均照列改列為兩百七十二億三千五百五十八萬六千元"},{"start":1978.499,"end":1990.304,"text":"六、資金運用應預計營業收支生產成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大制建設事業等向日審查結果隨同調整。（七、補辦預算固定資產制建設改良擴充3億7307萬6千元,償還長期債務2億6667萬元均照列。（八、通過決議48項"},{"start":1998.908,"end":2017.286,"text":"五月一號星期三討論四項繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管、經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金和農發電後端營運基金決議以經濟部主管一、經濟一作業基金"},{"start":2018.89,"end":2028.881,"text":"經濟作業基金一業務計劃應據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項目審查結果隨同調整二業務收支一業務總收入83億2701萬8千元照列二業務總支出76億5868萬元照列"},{"start":2035.808,"end":2064.35,"text":"三、本期剩餘六億六千八百三十三萬八千元照列。（三、截小空庫淨額二千七百一十八萬六千元照列。（四、轉投資計劃無劣數。（五、固定資產建設改喚擴充十三億九千六百四十五萬三千元照列。（六、國庫增撥金額增撥基金額無劣數。（七、通過決議二十八項。（二、作業基金水資源作業基金一、業務計劃因應業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改喚擴充及資金運用等項之審查。"},{"start":2065.391,"end":2081.4,"text":"結果隨同調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入原列91億1409萬8千元正列業務收入中銷貨收入向下土石銷貨收入2000萬元局均照列改列為91億3409萬8千元二、業務總支出110億0279萬6千元照列本期短處原列18億8869萬"},{"start":2093.146,"end":2107.021,"text":"八千元、減劣兩千萬元、改劣為十八億六千八百六十九萬八千元、三節繳供戶金額無劣數、四轉投資計劃無劣數、五固定資產建設改良擴充十三億九千一百二十六萬四千元照列。"},{"start":2108.427,"end":2127.277,"text":"六、國庫增撥基金額原列22億1900萬元（配合113年度中央政府總預算審議結果（檢列經濟部第11項非營業特種基金第三節水資源作業基金向下（設備及投資投資8,432萬2千元（本項因隨同修正檢列8,432萬2千元（改列額21億3,467萬8千元（其通過決議15項三、特別收入基金經濟"},{"start":2137.485,"end":2138.414,"text":"特別收入基金"},{"start":2139.195,"end":2159.427,"text":"一、業務計劃應據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二、基金來源用途局移處一、基金來源原列254億2862萬元增列推廣貿易基金之徵收及依法分配收入推廣貿易服務費收入500萬元區域均照列為254億3362萬元二、基金用途原列225億3441萬4千元減列推廣貿易基金之"},{"start":2168.733,"end":2179.749,"text":"貿易推廣工作計畫會費、捐費、捐助、補助、分攤、照護、救濟與交流活動費向下捐助、補助與獎助一千萬元,區域均照例改列為225億2441萬4千元"},{"start":2184.161,"end":2189.006,"text":"本期剩餘原列28億9千4百20萬6千元增列1500萬元改列為29億09百20萬元6千元三、結繳公庫劣數四、通貨決議53項四、特別收入基金核能發電後端營運基金因業務計劃因依據基金來源"},{"start":2201.72,"end":2209.089,"text":"與用途審查結果隨同調整二、基金來源用途及餘處一、基金來源267億7173萬2千元照列二、基金用途64億4931萬7千元照列三、本期剩餘203億2241萬5千元照列"},{"start":2218.621,"end":2230.989,"text":"三、結繳供戶劣數四、通俄決議五項五、本會負責審查之113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部份及非營業部份均力審查完略領去審查報告提報財政委員會會診經濟委員會審查結果須交由黨團協商院會討論時由楊昭紀委窮運出席說明五月二號星期四討論四項審查一"},{"start":2241.756,"end":2245.079,"text":"行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行"},{"start":2265.518,"end":2292.191,"text":"登記發言委員．除不在場者外．其預計與發言完畢．詢答結束委員陳超明及牛許廷．首期書面執行列入記錄刊登公報．書面執行案未及答覆部分．請向二單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會．二本院委員柯之恩等17人．三委員賴世保等19人．四委員楊求英等16人．分別擬具《中小企業發展條例》第36條之二條文修正草案案。．五委員楊求英等16人．"},{"start":2293.7,"end":2307.672,"text":"女巨中小企業發展條例徵定第36條之四條文草案案。（六本院臺灣民眾黨團女巨中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案案。（七國民黨團女巨中小企業發展條例第36條之二條文修正草案案。（"},{"start":2308.769,"end":2332.254,"text":"委員張志倫等19人、9、委員王世堅等16人分別擬具中央企業發展條例第35條、第36條之二及第四條條文修正草案案。（10、委員郭國文等19人擬具中央企業發展條例第36條之二條文修正草案案。（11、委員本院委員邱毅寅等29人擬具中央企業發展條例部分條文修正草案案。（決議"},{"start":2333.914,"end":2356.711,"text":"一、第一條條文遭臺灣民眾黨團提案通過。二、第二條條文遭行政院提案及委員邱毅寅等人提案通過。三、臺灣民眾黨團所提第七條之一條文不予增訂。四、第三十五條條文遭行政院提案通過。五、第三十六條之二條文所有提案予委員邱毅寅等人、委員陳廷飛、關乎何新淳等人及委員楊求英、關乎賴世寶等人。"},{"start":2357.552,"end":2383.645,"text":"分別所提修正動議均保留送用會處理。六、第36條之三條文照行政院提案及委員邱毅英等人提案通過。七、委員楊瓊英等人及臺灣民眾黨團分別所提第36條之四條文均保留送用會處理。八、第39條條文照行政院提案及委員邱毅英等人提案通過。九、第40條條文照行政院提案通過。十、併案審查完具理據審查報告提報用會條例需交由黨團協商並推起"},{"start":2385.886,"end":2411.171,"text":"楊昭吉文求於院會討論時做補充說明。）三會宣讀完畢。好,由於現場委員不足3人,我們議事錄就暫不處理,現在繼續進行討論事項,請一併宣讀。一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）農業部函為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢証一,"},{"start":2413.331,"end":2416.495,"text":"二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具《農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2436.781,"end":2437.725,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2444.09,"end":2445.611,"text":"首先我們先請陳冠廷委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2479.854,"end":2503.486,"text":"好謝謝主席跟各位我們立法院的同仁那就農產品市場交易法第35條條文修正案進行這一個提案說明那在網路時代我想社群媒體的影響力傳遞的訊息非常快速那包含這一些謠言或者是惡意的這一些訊息那如果要散播影響農產品價格的謠言或者是不實訊息的時候那一定會造成非常大的恐慌"},{"start":2504.306,"end":2521.316,"text":"那這樣子當然會造成他的市場價格快速波動那我們現在的農產品市場交易法第六條是由禁止壟斷操縱價格或者是故意變更市場以謀取不正當利益但是這個第35條的條文來看違反第六條只會被罰6萬元至30萬元"},{"start":2522.737,"end":2539.031,"text":"那對於有意操縱價格的來說這樣的處罰過於輕微根本沒有辦法有效的嚇阻這樣子的違法行為所以我們是主張犯行所得的必須如果犯行所得高於罰則的話那當然就是更多人會挺而走險所以我們希望"},{"start":2539.431,"end":2544.378,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":2557.094,"end":2577.264,"text":"來去依照他違反情節的嚴重程度跟農產品受影響的程度來進行查法那我們希望說透過罰款的提高能夠有效的遏止壟斷操縱價格散播不實訊息的不法行為那確保農產品市場的公平交易創造一個更健康完善的農品交易市場說明到此謝謝"},{"start":2582.861,"end":2591.056,"text":"好,我們謝謝陳冠廷委員那接下來我們請陳俊基部長就預算結凍等3案以及委員所提版本合併報告陳部長"},{"start":2603.202,"end":2629.474,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早那今天應邀到大院經濟委員會就本部主管的113年度預算凍結案提出報告那首先還是感謝所有的委員過去長期對我們農業部門相關農業的一些支持讓我們整個農業能夠持續的向前進步那這一次大院審議本部113年度預算裡面總共"},{"start":2630.154,"end":2643.904,"text":"有3件。本部已凝聚相關書面資料,送大院在案。請各位參討。以下僅就整個凍結案當初委員所關切的議題提出一些說明"},{"start":2646.55,"end":2654.68,"text":"整個凍結案部分三案都是屬於我們農業部部本部本身的一個凍結那這凍結案裡面總計凍結了兩千萬包括農業管理跟農業發展"},{"start":2660.745,"end":2677.767,"text":"那在凍結案的過程中委員所關切的這些議題我們做以下的說明那第一部分是針對農業及農地資源盤查的作業那委員當時針對我們的整個盤查作業的結果不一定與當年度的實際成果是一致的"},{"start":2678.268,"end":2700.449,"text":"那我們內部也曾經做了蠻詳細的一個討論那未來會透過整個建立標準作業流程的文件還有加速取得相關部會的一些資訊做即時的一個公開那對於上開的這些公開的資訊也會載明到相關資料擷取的時間以避免就是閱讀者的一個誤會"},{"start":2702.09,"end":2725.619,"text":"二、針對廢棄物處理經濟管理及監管的制度本部針對整個畜牧的廢棄物我們非常重視特別是在我們整個的一個進行循環的部分針對廢棄物的部分事實上我們在113年到116年已經提了相關的一個計畫包括畜牧廢棄物的經濟管理跟它的資源加值的一個計畫"},{"start":2726.519,"end":2737.056,"text":"那未來我想我們會針對續廠端的這些節水然後包括蓄分尿的早期發電跟污水的一個排放做完整的一個控管"},{"start":2737.912,"end":2756.09,"text":"那第三個部分是針對因應貿易自由化全面推動養牛產業升級的一個轉型那我想大家都知道臺牛的這些自由貿易協定未來就是自紐西蘭進口的牛奶會關稅會降到零那事實上農業部門持續在跟弱農"},{"start":2757.531,"end":2783.327,"text":"農農做相關的一個討論那同時我們也凝聚了整個養牛產業全面升級的一個轉型計畫暴行政院在案那在整個計畫裡面我想我們有從牧場端一直到我們怎麼樣建立我們國產優質的牛奶端到後續的這些輔導端我們也做了完整的一個策略的一個措施那也與我們相關的農農產業取得的一個共識那未來我想我們會針對這個計畫去落實去執行"},{"start":2788.223,"end":2806.733,"text":"第四個部分是針對怎麼樣強化續產會的一個功能跟運作那我想續產會是根據畜牧法依法成立的那他也協助我們整個畜牧產業的一個相關的一個執行跟推動那不可會員在整個執行的推動中有一些可以在精進的地方"},{"start":2807.313,"end":2821.118,"text":"所以我想我們未來會針對整個的一個續展會的一個報告組織運作他的一個審核機制去監討他的管理作業流程並訂定相關的SOP來改進他過往的一些缺失更提高他的一個行政效率"},{"start":2823.905,"end":2853.365,"text":"在當時凍結案的時候我想也很多委員針對怎麼樣去精進我們國內的一個雞蛋產銷因應的一個措施那我想在去年我們在做雞蛋專案進口的時候除了像國外進口雞蛋以外我們也同步針對國內的家蛋機產業的一個產業鏈做積極性的一個付出從總機、廚機、蛋中機到蛋機我們不斷的去強化它的一個老母雞的一個淘汰"},{"start":2854.205,"end":2854.525,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":2869.654,"end":2894.95,"text":"延續免徵百分之五的營業稅來降低飼料成本同時我們在整個的一個雞蛋的生產鏈中我們也積極的導入相關的一個冷鏈的計畫特別到洗選場的部分我們的希望說在洗選的過程中在整個蛋機生產以後一直到洗選的過程中能夠持續的進行一個冷鏈的處理來達到一個保持蛋品的一個品質"},{"start":2895.811,"end":2897.413,"text":"．立法院第11屆第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":2917.256,"end":2932.606,"text":"相關的這些凍結案裡面都是我們在施政計畫裡面配合國家政策及農業發展來推動的計畫因為實際業務的需要也敬請我們委員支持會議支持解凍來以利我們本部競輸的這樣相關的計畫來持續的推動來達到照顧農民發展永續農業的一個目標"},{"start":2938.936,"end":2966.962,"text":"那第二個部分是今天陳委員所提的農產品市場交易法的第三十五條的一個修正那本部在這邊也表達相關的一些意見那根據農產品市場交易法第三十五條他原來條文是只要違反相關的第六條的第一項第十四條第一項的部分是可以處六萬到三十萬的一個划環那如果違反第六條第二項的話"},{"start":2968.042,"end":2991.528,"text":"特別是足以產生農產品運銷秩序者可以處罰六萬元以上三十五萬元的罰罰那這樣的一個罰罰本身那委員所提的版本是提高將相關的這個處罰由原來的六萬到三十萬提高到六萬到三千萬那或者是六萬到一千萬的一個罰款那整個的一個條文其實是"},{"start":2992.768,"end":2992.788,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":3013.863,"end":3035.83,"text":"謝謝陳部長的報告那公平交易委員會的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報討論事項兩岸合併詢答分開處理委員質詢前原力做以下幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們10點截止發言登記首先請登記第一位陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":3045.044,"end":3066.3,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長來請陳部長委員長部長早部長這是我昨天收到的一張明信片這一張明信片是一位男大副校"},{"start":3068.12,"end":3094.032,"text":"六年級的學生寫給我的小學六年級喔你知道它裡面寫什麼我唸給你聽喔親愛的委員你好我是南大副小六甲學生經過班級的乳牛專題課程之後得知2025年紐西蘭液態乳進口恐嚴重影響我國弱農業請您支持修法必須要採取行動"},{"start":3096.123,"end":3124.373,"text":"將我們的進口乳能夠更名為長效乳以保障我國落農生計小學六年級部長你有沒有很感動小學六年級他會關注這個議題會關注我們農業的發展那我們呢我們動作會不會太慢了我們動作會不會太慢了"},{"start":3125.171,"end":3154.31,"text":"我跟你們說明就是有關於長效乳的部分那依據現在的相關的一個規定並沒有長效乳的規定但是我們經過了跟業者的研議以後我們正式把這些相關的製程之下能夠列為長效乳的這個建議已經具體就是建請相關的衛福部去做它相關的制定因為整個制定長效乳的一個標定是由衛福部主導的那農業部已經完成了這樣的一個動作把長效乳的相關的規範提供給衛福部"},{"start":3155.431,"end":3166.221,"text":"所以你們把相關資料建議都給衛福部了好多久多久可以研擬出來這是2025喔2025要面對的喔現在已經是2024已經是五月中下旬"},{"start":3172.128,"end":3172.148,"text":"部長"},{"start":3191.055,"end":3214.637,"text":"今天民眾要有知的權利這是最根本的他要去實質分別什麼是進口什麼是國內自己生產的你要很清楚讓他了解連一個小學生都知道你一個小學生我看到這張明信片我好感動但我覺得我們太慢"},{"start":3216.038,"end":3216.198,"text":"瞭解"},{"start":3232.145,"end":3245.858,"text":"如果他是落農產地的學生你說哇可能他的爸爸媽媽自己本身是從事這樣的行業是他會擔心不是喔他這一間學校是在我們的市區並不是落農的學區"},{"start":3248.402,"end":3262.275,"text":"所以表示我們不斷的在提醒這樣的議題它是有效果的慢慢的大家會關注那關注之後大家就藉著標示去了解我該怎麼選擇"},{"start":3264.347,"end":3291.429,"text":"這是一件好事而不是像部長所說的它不是唯一可是它卻是最重要的那一環那我跟委員說明像國產品牛奶的標示我們也積極的在推動包括我們現在的標章有明確的標示台灣乳台灣的鮮乳所以未來就是你不可以用牛奶去混進口乳你要貼這個標籤特別是這個標籤貼上去以後就能夠去證明是國產的台灣乳"},{"start":3293.19,"end":3316.047,"text":"這個部分我們已經在做了我知道我們有在做是時間點呢時間點呢你4月1號才提給衛福部然後你們現在所做的標示你們有在做時間呢請給我們時間而且你們包括要給落農的補助要所謂的淘汰乳牛的部分"},{"start":3317.662,"end":3341.499,"text":"要溯及既往這個部分也還沒有看到有實質的一個進展我跟委員報告就是我們針對洛榮的整個養牛產業的一個計畫我們已經抱怨那整個經費達到29億那相對的只要行政院合定了以後那我想就是還沒合定嘛就是還沒合定嘛還沒合定就是空的嘛"},{"start":3342.557,"end":3363.155,"text":"多久?我再次強調2025我們就要面對這一波衝擊了現在已經是五月中了我們還在等,我不知道在等什麼來,那個部長我要再請教一下我跟你討論的是我們在農漁、農漁災損的認定的SOP"},{"start":3368.871,"end":3386.462,"text":"我們過去其實都是有地方來做認定但是現在因為我們農業部從陳其中部長到你我們都用最快速的從中央直接要求地方還有相關的單位從農糧署到農改廠去做一些核定"},{"start":3387.691,"end":3406.877,"text":"大家就忘記了原來地方政府要付出他相對的責任我就拿這一次芒果的災損認定我3月20號就已經跟部長反映了這個都有通年紀錄的啦我直接就跟部長反映甚至也做了很多的槌尋"},{"start":3408.84,"end":3424.905,"text":"好,3月20號向部長反映,部長有說因為當時候包括龍眼包括荔枝芒果他們的灰基本上都沒有像之前這樣所以當時候就是荔枝跟龍眼我們先合訂了"},{"start":3425.919,"end":3454.699,"text":"對不對然後芒果因為他比較晚一點所以大概要確認是在4月4月下旬對當時候你說4月中旬所以我在4月8號我就安排了經濟委員會南下會刊對不對所以部長您也當場決意說在4月中下旬要開始要求地方政府還有我們中央來協助做茶菇的動作對不對是"},{"start":3456.5,"end":3482.553,"text":"五月初臺南市政府完成調查在這段時間地方農民就很擔心到底有沒有可是當時候根本市政府也都慢半拍才開始進行所謂的查估所以當五月初完成調查之後我們五月七號在昨天晚上我們就馬上公告了今天就開始申請"},{"start":3483.891,"end":3509.65,"text":"做現金救助的部分對不對對好我現在跟你討論的是今天從3月20號我跟部長反映為什麼大家會擔心確實結論也是有現金救助也確實有災損對不對是那經驗值嘛3月20號以前所有的農民跟我們反映的一看一個經營條費總控就是今年很差"},{"start":3513.663,"end":3540.413,"text":"但是我們當時候就說我們還要等這時間這個過程其實農民人心惶惶市政府又沒有啟動只有聽到我們中央不斷的說我們要等四月中旬四月下旬地方都不動所以這所謂的一個災損的部分我覺得我們要做一個SOP的一個所謂認定標準的一個處理權責在哪裡"},{"start":3543.612,"end":3564.158,"text":"不要讓農民我們現在中央很盡責任結果地方好像就在等中央那農民呢農民就是向地方中央這樣子看你看他看你看他3月20號就跟你反映這件事了對不對經過了多久"},{"start":3567.662,"end":3584.731,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個所謂災損認定的部分勢必不論是農業或漁業都應該要訂出一個標準地方政府要有責任啦!不能像現在那樣啦!有用做路財等於做路照!"},{"start":3587.446,"end":3615.513,"text":"陳委員那個時間...對是不是部長退後我想謝謝委員的一個建議那事實上我們現在有已經有一個SOB那後續我想我們會跟各地方政府更做更積極的一個互動他要趕快啟動嘛我想我們會遷就這部分我們會遷就這部分那我們的審查我想也根據當初跟委員的反應我們也是照...照不來啦我們還是照相關的情況而且經過諮問會跟確認的以後可以知道地方農民等多久"},{"start":3617.027,"end":3632.485,"text":"陳委員時間好好謝謝謝謝陳庭菲委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席本席想邀請部長來請陳部長"},{"start":3640.362,"end":3646.067,"text":"副部長,首先恭喜你繼續農任,讓我們一起為農業部來,農政來加油,讓我們的農民有更好的生活。那我們繼續討論的是蛋,上一次本席跟我們經濟委員會"},{"start":3660.2,"end":3688.311,"text":"其他委員也到現場我們還有蘇清泉委員讓我們一起到現場去看那大家社會大眾都非常的希望能夠了解真正在我們這一次我們的進口彈然後又銷毀那到底你總結的答案這一次的進口彈跟銷毀那請說明到底我們花了人民的納稅錢多少錢"},{"start":3690.479,"end":3705.514,"text":"我想分兩個部分這個烏龍事件請說明我想第一個還是要先說明一下當初進口當然有他的政策目的也達到了政策但是在執行的過程中沒有那個政策目的達到然後在整個過程當中是還要我們拿納稅人的錢去銷毀那些進口有問題的蛋你把我們人民當傻子啊"},{"start":3713.081,"end":3714.402,"text":"這是我們辛辛苦苦的納稅錢還要讓我們排隊去買雞蛋請再說明你告訴我總額補助總共多少錢我們整個補助在今年度是8.2億左右8.2億左右總共進口了多少個蛋"},{"start":3732.406,"end":3741.612,"text":"一億五千八百多萬顆一億五千八百多萬顆那請教銷毀了多少五千五百八十萬顆五千五百八十萬顆銷毀為什麼我想當初我們就在缺啊就在缺啊為什麼還進那個有問題的蛋啊好銷毀了五千五百八十萬顆請問這個五千五百八十萬顆光光你又送到冷鏈系統護二十度我們多少錢"},{"start":3759.865,"end":3783.761,"text":"到你消委前總共花了多少錢?整個的一個過期雞蛋去做堆肥整個的費用是四億七千多萬那其中三億七千萬左右是蛋款的部分五千萬左右是倉儲費的部分然後四千萬左右是相關的這些運輸跟它的一個處理的費用運輸跟處理費用嗎?所以平平白白"},{"start":3785.682,"end":3808.22,"text":"補助進口的8.2億光光五千多萬顆的蛋我們又要總共多少啊你剛才講的總共多少四億七千多萬四億七千多萬如果拿給全國的人民你看我們有多少的福利我們可以建設多少拿給我們的營養午餐的孩子我們可以協助他們多少為什麼會導致這樣子"},{"start":3811.98,"end":3813.321,"text":"這樣子的說法本席不予認同你的結果論部長"},{"start":3838.158,"end":3857.564,"text":"你的結果論當你要進口多少雞蛋的時候你在你整個產銷的資訊裡頭你會非常清楚我們一個月國內要多少需要多少個雞蛋對不對你的產有多少你的銷有多少除非除非我本期說的烏龍事件其中有貓咪你的產銷資訊由農業部委託給養雞協會來做"},{"start":3867.148,"end":3893.67,"text":"你如果很清清楚楚的會很清楚你的需求你現在只歸屁於因為大家對進口蛋有疑慮所以就才導致你這樣的原因不可以這麼說所以本席要再跟你討論一個結果也就是我們光光這一個錯誤的政策我們補助是8.2億我們的納稅錢"},{"start":3895.692,"end":3897.973,"text":"我們總共進口了一億五千多顆雞蛋但是我們有五千五百八十幾萬顆的雞蛋是銷毀的在這個銷毀當中我們還要付出四億七慘痛的代價"},{"start":3912.748,"end":3939.383,"text":"除了你忍戀五千多萬你的交通作業也要將近五千多萬人民情何以堪部長人民情何以堪這個數字告訴給社會大眾我們上次也說要公佈在你們的網站你們公佈了沒有公佈了人民的感受每一個打到無處說為什麼我們沒有蛋我們還要付錢去消為這些蛋"},{"start":3940.427,"end":3953.015,"text":"政府要不要檢討政府要不要檢討我想我們已經很深刻的檢討整個的一個執行的過程還有人質疑你這個臭蛋為什麼還要去放在花了五千萬的冷鏈還要護二十度"},{"start":3954.96,"end":3960.385,"text":"所以你光光在經濟委員會我們一直追一直追你已經達成錯誤的政策了錯誤的軌道要怎麼樣把它縮短對不對"},{"start":3979.338,"end":3997.233,"text":"還好你最後部長你加強監督把你原本要留到6月底才要完成的到什麼時候完成4月19號就完成4月19號對不對這個其中差了兩個半月如果我們不對你這兩個半月又要還我們一以上的納稅錢"},{"start":4000.615,"end":4028.713,"text":"所以部長我們要將心比心啊這些都是人民的納稅錢好不好我們討論你現在雞蛋的產銷是委由協會來做那你認為到目前為止你們調查全國1800處的養雞場的產銷狀況本席具體建議你如果只有打電話去問你還是會重蹈覆轍又是烏龍事件又是政策錯誤"},{"start":4031.216,"end":4041.75,"text":"需求跟工區跟時間點、timing都不對讓我們平白浪費了8億多的錢再加上4億期總共多少"},{"start":4043.089,"end":4044.21,"text":"五千五百多萬顆"},{"start":4069.861,"end":4078.348,"text":"的臭蛋所以我們一個答案也就是觀光這個政策要浪費人民十億的錢"},{"start":4079.446,"end":4098.059,"text":"對不對?你們花出去的10億的錢?不是這樣子補助多少錢?我想我們在開始補助當初補助多少錢?我們整個去年度補助8.2億那今年度還沒有,他們續展會還沒申請預估大概1.多億所以我說大概是10億但是這10億裡面包括你現在講的4.7億對不對?"},{"start":4101.961,"end":4108.364,"text":"所以夯不啷噹包括起來就是10億嘛 對不對對啊 剛剛本期告訴你10億啊所以這10億到還沒有算錢的部分總共你預估大概要費用10億包括了補助包括了這個5580幾萬顆的臭蛋還有你一些行政費用還沒有理清楚還沒有來申請"},{"start":4132.755,"end":4150.789,"text":"該當給人家要給人家但是本席還是說這10億尤其這4億7是人民非常冤枉的錢政府要給民眾道歉4億7的稅金我想部長你是非常資深的事務官你也很難過還好是你追了這兩個半月我們至少再減一億的錢"},{"start":4159.332,"end":4181.765,"text":"不然我還要再浪費1億的錢痛定思痛本期具體建議你針對於這1800處你們應該要針對於入儲數量還有你養殖登記以及你屠宰的這個數量給他交叉比對你的數字才會更正確同不同意我非常同意我們已經非常同意趕快去做會"},{"start":4183.186,"end":4183.446,"text":"最後一個議題再給我一分鐘就好"},{"start":4202.228,"end":4220.031,"text":"也就是現在農業用的塑膠膜我們所謂的農膜請部長解決我們農民的問題因為我們種的水果這一些都需要用但是你們也有說推動廢棄農膜回收對不對成效怎麼樣"},{"start":4220.452,"end":4220.952,"text":"政府需要協助一個SOP流程來協助民眾"},{"start":4239.068,"end":4239.108,"text":"主席"},{"start":4259.434,"end":4282.186,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員來部長這個跟這個農業廢棄物有相關的這些作為是不是也能夠給經濟委員會的每位委員給大家一份報告好不好好謝謝好接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言我還是要懇請各位委員要掌握一下時間謝謝主席我想請一下陳部長來請陳部長"},{"start":4290.674,"end":4308.976,"text":"部長好因為你是少數橫跨520都繼續在這個位置上面的部長那其實因為今天的解凍案當中的時候其實有一個農業管理虛募管理部分有一個一千萬的部分那其中這部分其實跟去年的雞蛋之亂其實有一些關係"},{"start":4310.337,"end":4332.467,"text":"楊瓊怡我問得非常的清楚也非常的深入所以有關於這部分我可能就不會再重複問可是我想特別提到一個點因為你剛剛提到說這樣子的一個政策大概總共要花掉十億嘛對不對那我想說這是去年的雞蛋之亂今年"},{"start":4334.268,"end":4356.085,"text":"臺灣雞蛋的供需狀況是不是還會出現缺口需要從國外進口的狀態我想以我們現在目前的評估是不會的因為在去年我們把整個的一個雞蛋的產業鏈重組了以後那現在的蛋中雞跟蛋精它的生產效率也提高了然後每日蛋的產能也提高了所以我們預估整個的一個今年"},{"start":4356.866,"end":4373.853,"text":"部長在這邊很正式就是公開的表示今年去台灣不會出現缺彈的狀態不會再出現去年這樣的一個雞蛋之亂嘛對不對好那剛剛的時候因為你有回應這個陽泉委員特別提到說4月19號的時候把之前數的過期彈全部都銷毀掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":4376.494,"end":4394.476,"text":"那我想問一下,因為你剛剛也回答得非常大聲你就講說這個蛋銷毀了之後那因為我記得在4月17號考察的時候有特別押了一個時間就是4月30號之前的時候所有的影片必須要上架請問這個部分我們做到了嗎?"},{"start":4395.097,"end":4419.906,"text":"我想我們的影片齁因為整個影片包括我們每一批的影片齁那個上架的那個檔案非常大所以我們把相關的三個部分一個是在出庫的部分一個在運輸的部分一個是在做堆肥的部分的影片我們有上架那如果任何有有希望在看其他日期的部分齁可以來申請因為我們不可能所有"},{"start":4420.686,"end":4420.906,"text":"主席"},{"start":4442.319,"end":4442.479,"text":"農業部委員"},{"start":4458.084,"end":4478.642,"text":"能夠的時候某一個部分能夠把最新的版本上來如果說你們覺得檔案太大不要把所有的過程上來我也接受這個部分可是我希望最新的東西能夠很清楚然後讓民眾看到整個的一個過程因為我們看到這過程當中沒有聲音然後沒有相關的一個盤點的一個細節好不好"},{"start":4480.785,"end":4492.743,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是我們整個錄影沒有錄音我們是用密錄器的方式那我也同意這個銷毀是用密錄器的方式錄啊為什麼要用密錄器的方式錄"},{"start":4494.264,"end":4521.439,"text":"因為他是一個監督因為我們這個監督不能夠公開的方式用密錄器錄不是我們是掛在胸前這樣錄的方式啦那也許用詞可能不是那麼恰當但是每一個人都知道正在錄影但是我們並沒有錄音這第一點第二點就是說我們會選一個就是因為都有第三方的要求包括地方政府的衛生局啊或者是國稅局都會去參加這樣的一個一個銷毀的動作"},{"start":4522.62,"end":4523.38,"text":"所以我們會選擇比較影響的部分"},{"start":4551.347,"end":4565.08,"text":"針對我們整個動物傳染病防治條例當中的時候我們目前如何界定網際網路內容如果涉及境外因施檢義務我們怎麼去判斷這個部分部長"},{"start":4565.58,"end":4582.393,"text":"我想在網站的部分我們會去監控相關的網站那第一個就是網站如果有疑似使用中國的這些圖片的時候那我們第一個就會先懷疑只要疑似就要求下架嗎這樣子因為我們是根據我們動物傳人"},{"start":4583.494,"end":4584.374,"text":"請問這個部分的時候你們認為要不要下架?"},{"start":4614.76,"end":4636.505,"text":"因為這個是食品我們強調是跟動植物防疫檢疫有關的所以它本身像你說雞蛋或其他的跟動物的製品有關的我們才會處理所以這個東西你不處理的這個東西不處理是不是所以是不會下架嘛不處理就不會下架的意思啊沒有我不知道這個裡面的東西是什麼"},{"start":4639.93,"end":4645.756,"text":"寵物的凍乾和食品你就看這兩個嘛部長你簡單回應我一下好不好這個東西你覺得要怎麼處理?這個要不要下架?"},{"start":4659.155,"end":4670.94,"text":"這個來源人家就很清楚提供所有的資料告訴你來源是台灣的結果你們要求人家下架就看這圖感覺很像就叫人家下架部長我再看下一個齁這個左邊是台灣的右邊是淘寶的照片完全一樣你就要不要下架好部長你回答不出來我再往下看"},{"start":4686.395,"end":4713.655,"text":"這個是左邊是台灣的右邊是大陸的這個要不要下架照片完全一樣欸不是 我要跟委員說明齁不是中國的產品都不能進來第一個就是說它符合就是說某些產品是禁止由大陸中國進口的部分理解 所以部長所以我要你直接做這樣子判斷因為你們這邊在做處理的時候就說圖片相似就要求人家下架完全沒有顧慮到廠商"},{"start":4715.467,"end":4737.849,"text":"生存多麼的不容易要做生意你以為很容易嗎結果我舉這三個案子當中的時候第一個案子就是你們看到圖片相似疑似就要求人家直接下架人家提出當天提出證明他從台灣採購東西你們完全不認喔沒有沒有我跟委員說你不是這樣子齁他們提出來以後我們要去查"},{"start":4738.87,"end":4760.338,"text":"是不是這樣子的那是不是要查被我確定才叫人家下架你們是第一時間就叫人家下架部長你知道他們這怎麼處理嗎所以我在想說現在農業部這麼大防檢局這麼大只要他覺得儀式圖片類似就要求下架欸那我現在如果是廠商惡性競爭的時候我覺得好你再看下面齁"},{"start":4762.591,"end":4784.96,"text":"再看下面一張左邊這邊是台灣知名品牌的被人家用同樣的照片放在大陸的網站上面他是不是相似他是完全一樣喔如果這樣子的時候我們直接來你們這邊檢舉你們是不是叫他們一定要下架我要跟委員說明喔不是大陸的網站就叫做中國的東西"},{"start":4785.76,"end":4786.34,"text":"瞭解謝謝以上"},{"start":4803.847,"end":4804.828,"text":"接下來請賴瑞榮委員發言"},{"start":4835.997,"end":4860.695,"text":"好,謝主席,請陳部長來,請陳部長部長部長辛苦了部長,蛋的事情我還是要提一下啦最早的原因還是起源於當時的禽流感嘛所以導致了當時說台灣的蛋的問題那甚至很多買不到蛋那甚至蛋的價格高漲那最後甚至有很多在因為整個"},{"start":4861.636,"end":4861.896,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4880.126,"end":4880.867,"text":"）二、審查本院委員）"},{"start":4900.225,"end":4928.655,"text":"這個當然是可以去檢討但是不要去模糊掉原來的政策那個目的原先最早最早的政策目的是要解決掉當時禽流感後導致的這種甚至一種已經當時媒體整個報導一幅好像就恐慌一樣的然後大家在搶蛋然後價格一直飆漲然後買不到蛋所以已經形成一個很嚴重的一個社會上的所以政府當然有責任要去穩定住那花一些經費來穩定住這本來就是一件重要的事情所以我覺得部長還是要把這些事實不斷的"},{"start":4930.196,"end":4955.931,"text":"陳講清楚非常謝謝委員就是我一直一直強調就是說當初的進口雞蛋有他的背後必須要去穩定當下的一些雞蛋的一個穩定的供應的量那後續因為雞蛋的一個庫存本身我們都算過了每一天大概每一個人多少事實上我們進口的雞蛋的量大概只有大概一個禮拜到兩個禮拜的份對所以他本身不是說我們進口的超到的量去處理但後續因為"},{"start":4956.511,"end":4975.851,"text":"整個進口雞蛋被民眾產生因為錯誤的報導造成民眾的餘力以後那個才開始去累積那第二個部分就是我們也深刻的檢討就是在整個的一個處理過程中我們的續產會包括我們農業部的督導的確有很多改善的空間那這個部分我想我們也會更精進的去處理"},{"start":4976.471,"end":5005.111,"text":"我想不論哪一黨執政都會遇到類似這樣的問題那應該是要去讓這個農業部能夠用專業的方式處理那如果又是這種攻擊式的話那未來會讓所有遇到這樣的事情在發生的時候更難去做出一個正確的決定我認為那個絕對不是台灣的好事以此來跟農業部來互勉再來我請教一下今天其實有要談到這個農產品交易的部分我先問一下就是說這幾年來其實常發生很多"},{"start":5006.291,"end":5030.791,"text":"近外的一些假消息啦特別是一些媒體的報導的時候去講到包括這個臺美的豬肉有瘦肉精的問題甚至點名到新東陽黑橋牌等等這些的那一段時間就會出來一次所以其實這樣的問題其實要去做一些遏止啦就是從境外的一些媒體不斷進來去干擾到我們的豬肉的安全甚至豬肉的一些市場的部分這個我認為其實應該要去正視這個問題"},{"start":5031.992,"end":5039.918,"text":"那我再問一下部長這三年來我們影響農產品的交易價格這些謠言跟不實訊息有沒有開罰過?"},{"start":5041.493,"end":5042.413,"text":"部長,為什麼沒有開發?部長,不只"},{"start":5069.284,"end":5069.684,"text":"（二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5100.024,"end":5113.389,"text":"這個開罰不出來的話你提高再多也沒有用啊對所以我想有效的對這些嚇阻開罰的目的要去嚇阻嗎嚇阻這些不實的交易訊息影響到農產品的價格那怎麼去嚇阻我想喔"},{"start":5114.449,"end":5135.354,"text":"一個嚇阻的方法就是第一個罰款第二個就是因為在這個刑法的215條裡面也有相關的刑責的部分但是我覺得農業部該做的就是說怎麼樣去讓這樣子的一個假訊息能夠掌握它的源頭因為掌握到它的源頭釋放者的時候那後續的調查會比較精準"},{"start":5136.192,"end":5163.377,"text":"那如果一現行我們只是把它提高它的罰則的話你如果一樣查不到的話你一樣罰不下去啊對我我我了解齁所以我才會我就針對這個部分的我也跟農業部裡面的同仁在討論齁就是後續當你有這樣子的一個謠言一開始起來的時候我們就當下就要去追查而不是等到這個謠言擴散了以後那擴散了以後它的人數眾多就比較不容易查所以這個部分我們會更精準的打擊"},{"start":5163.737,"end":5185.038,"text":"委員長這個是不是要再研擬更好的一些方法好不好因為他一旦散播出去對農產品的價格就產生相當大的影響那這個時代又是網路的時代而且又是大量散播的時代跟以前的是已經不一樣了所以我認為其實現在的政府要能夠因應現在的只要有少數的不孝人惡意的去製造假訊息破壞你的價格的話"},{"start":5185.759,"end":5186.339,"text":"８立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案"},{"start":5201.468,"end":5224.683,"text":"黃牛的問題的時候一些這個文藝的一些演唱會票黃牛價格若有開罰出來成功那嚇阻效果就出現就有效果同樣我也認為應該努力的去開罰出來就是對於這些惡意的散播不實的訊息然後造成農產品價格的混亂甚至於這些部分應該要給你開罰那你有開罰成功了之後你後面才要產生相關的嚇阻力了解好不好"},{"start":5225.083,"end":5253.633,"text":"部長那個希望農業部來審慎來營運最後一個小小的猕猴的部分猕猴其實對很多的農產品也都產生相當的影響我也希望我知道農業部有編一些經費給地方政府那我也希望有些地方做的效果不錯有些效果不是那麼好我也希望農業部整體思考好不好讓猕猴這個問題能夠減少對於農產品的一個影響好不好部長我們真的猕猴的部分我們也現在也開出就是說大家一起想想他的方法啦"},{"start":5254.113,"end":5254.633,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員接下來我們請林大化委員發言"},{"start":5289.952,"end":5290.272,"text":"有請部長來請陳部長"},{"start":5298.945,"end":5318.352,"text":"地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地"},{"start":5318.792,"end":5322.534,"text":"８立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．完整會議"},{"start":5343.123,"end":5351.85,"text":"一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合私內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的"},{"start":5365.66,"end":5391.04,"text":"好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業務農"},{"start":5394.781,"end":5394.801,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5414.773,"end":5427.018,"text":"或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良長洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了"},{"start":5444.645,"end":5447.972,"text":"不能養殖之後這是他的財產你限制他的財產不能再養殖了要轉為互農了那你的規劃是什麼"},{"start":5457.553,"end":5476.366,"text":"這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來張公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎樣我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣"},{"start":5487.193,"end":5492.476,"text":"好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地竟然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用土維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地"},{"start":5509.204,"end":5517.708,"text":"但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再給這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說"},{"start":5525.091,"end":5539.74,"text":"好那如果就是這樣子情況之下我本來是養殖沒有變更我養殖用地好你們這一道命令下去也就是剛才你們基於永續養殖環境跟糧食安全本席是支持喔但是你的衝擊面沒有顧及到"},{"start":5541.181,"end":5561.95,"text":"所以你們這個規定下去之後既存的餘溫所作的土地屬養牧用地的過往三年沒有養殖適時的就不能申請復養如果再養殖就非法使用了本期要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的適時你是不採的"},{"start":5565.262,"end":5592.067,"text":"所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了好"},{"start":5592.987,"end":5610.93,"text":"那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電共生我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃"},{"start":5619.812,"end":5634.583,"text":"這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的市值的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的漁電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中"},{"start":5645.831,"end":5660.658,"text":"有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個呢還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對"},{"start":5664.419,"end":5674.064,"text":"針對這個第一個項目所謂農牧用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定"},{"start":5688.47,"end":5691.032,"text":"中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．"},{"start":5710.158,"end":5720.725,"text":"那你的政策要怎麼種什麼是有經濟價值的種什麼是有經濟價值你要告訴人家一條路啊你不能說好叫人家自己去問這個農改廠啊好再來那這個下面"},{"start":5726.548,"end":5746.349,"text":"最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊"},{"start":5747.79,"end":5751.433,"text":"所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養了不能種植了直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做"},{"start":5776.493,"end":5779.414,"text":"好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此"},{"start":5797.901,"end":5808.231,"text":"長年有水雖然叫廢棄的餘溫所以呢他因為水溫蓋高所以呢我們旁邊的本來沒有水母結果有這個生態改變了所以水母暴增所以廢棄的餘溫你們對於廢棄的餘溫有相關的配套嗎"},{"start":5813.175,"end":5824.492,"text":"沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長"},{"start":5829.059,"end":5829.459,"text":"部長請回答"},{"start":5853.534,"end":5864.538,"text":"簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說"},{"start":5869.02,"end":5869.841,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5909.119,"end":5936.323,"text":"主席有請部長請陳部長部長好委員長好這次花蓮0403的大地震除了造成很多的房屋倒塌飯店倒塌然後很重要的就是"},{"start":5938.239,"end":5953.425,"text":"的道路,我們從樹花公路相關的這些公路的中斷就造成了很多我們的農業產品沒有辦法運到"},{"start":5958.424,"end":5977.438,"text":"北部這邊所以這個變成要去繞一大圈到這個南部到台北事實上真的是這個花費時間而且是必須要這個凌晨的凌晨要更早要就要出發"},{"start":5978.615,"end":6007.046,"text":"然後這個現在雖然蘇花公路雖然已經有通一部分但是它是單線而且還有限制這個車輛的大小所以這個部分是有這樣的一個狀況所以這個農業部當然也有因應著這些措施在整個行政院的這個召集然後285億的之中"},{"start":6008.162,"end":6025.617,"text":"佔了一小塊1.83億振興當地農村的旅遊然後當然就是提出這個每一張250元面額的優惠券這個部分有幾個部分要再去"},{"start":6029.526,"end":6035.158,"text":"這個精進啊第一個時間啊這個7月1號就還相當久啊這個7月1號現在當時我們發生是4月3號啊"},{"start":6041.514,"end":6068.449,"text":"事業商號到現在都還沒有辦法實施因為這個部分其實不是那麼困難的因為過去都很有經驗這個疫後的疫情之後為了要那個都有很多的經驗把它拿來複製就可以了何況過去這個花蓮的造成的地震或是其他縣市的造成的"},{"start":6069.75,"end":6085.868,"text":"相關風災都有很多的一個可以參考的所以這個部分要請農業部這個農糧署在這邊去多加油這個第一個時間可以提早嗎?"},{"start":6088.366,"end":6108.242,"text":"我跟委員說明就是這個地震我想針對農產品因為道路中斷的關係嘛會影響到農產品的往西部送的這樣所以我們在第一時間就針對那個運費的補助那其實我們更重要就是因為道路的中斷你沒辦法買的時候遊客不會進去的時候所以我們當下就"},{"start":6109.142,"end":6136.351,"text":"我們就辦了一個活動叫重新出發就是在網購平台買500送100就是希望對然後現在這個部分您剛才講這個部分是遊客要進去那要拉遊客進去的部分我想不只是農業部我們也會配合交通部觀光局這邊一起來啟動那這個啟動的時間點會依我想整個政府是一體的會依交通的順暢度能夠能夠盡快當然我們會盡快"},{"start":6138.132,"end":6151.655,"text":"好部長哈這個在上禮拜六哈上禮拜六鄭文燦副院長是這個跟很多的部會的這個單位都去了花蓮縣政府嗯"},{"start":6152.728,"end":6153.308,"text":"委員會提前提早到6月。"},{"start":6175.55,"end":6199.24,"text":"農村水保署署長也沒有來了所以這個部分他說還在規劃怎麼細節這些趕快去把它這個完整我想我們會盡快的配合整個行政院的政經平台會同步的推動這個部分因為不僅僅是這樣這個是農產品這個部分另外就是你們也要去盤點"},{"start":6201.615,"end":6229.396,"text":"應該也有多資料看怎麼樣資料怎麼樣也如果你們已經有相關的資料我們比對一下我這邊是不是還有你們沒有落的就針對這些農路因為道路也受到影響農路的部分包括這些這個因為那段時間除了地震之外又下雨下雨就鬆動了然後一下雨"},{"start":6234,"end":6253.197,"text":"我跟委員說明,像地震以後,我們農政協調組隨時在監控它的代工的崩塌地,那相關的農路如果受準的話,我想縣市政府,我們也跟縣市政府有一個平台,他隨時通報,那我們也會納入相關的計畫,那目前為止大概已經有大概1.1億左右在持續在投入這個農路的這個修復。你說這一次的嗎?"},{"start":6256.3,"end":6272.7,"text":"對,這次的。 針對地震嗎?對,天然災害的部分嘛,因為包括這種地震的部分,然後崩塌下來的部分,那這些道路的茶菇包括我們的農政水保署還有縣市政府也都會茶菇。茶菇回來以後,我們會納入整個這次專案的部分去做處理。"},{"start":6273.18,"end":6274.121,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":6305.599,"end":6328.356,"text":"主席有請我們陳代理部長來請陳部長首先恭喜我們陳代理部長520你就遵守了恭喜你好好為臺灣的農業加油那今天我第一個要來請教"},{"start":6329.96,"end":6348.754,"text":"我們的陳代理部長在這個臺美21世紀貿易倡議裡面上週在臺北已經完成最新會合的一個談判雙方已經就第二批協定的提案內容交換意見裡面有包括農業、勞動"},{"start":6351.338,"end":6366.333,"text":"環境的領域阿蘇會談饒戶成效那我不曉得饒戶成效在哪裡那現在最重要是討論到農業的方面那台灣忽略美國協志化解中國對台灣經濟的脅迫"},{"start":6369.328,"end":6397.251,"text":"並致使美方開放臺灣的農產品來施美。．那行政院政務委員鄧正宗也表示臺灣爭取奉禮芒果、肉鬆、香腸出口至美國其中奉禮芒果曾遭到中國拼命的禁銷盼美方能抵制中國大陸的經濟脅迫那這裡面我感覺都很奇怪"},{"start":6398.852,"end":6413.51,"text":"那你在這方面的了解多少那若松、香腸、鳳梨、芒果輸出到那邊台灣這個本來就應該要給我們過了如果兩邊在談判的時候就沒有什麼一個很大的問題吧"},{"start":6416.405,"end":6437.607,"text":"我先跟委員說明就是臺美貿易的一個協定的第二階段的一個談判的部分那基本上最主要的部分是針對相關的整個的一個國際規範跟它的一個相關的一個風險還有它的依據科學根據的一個檢疫條件那因為我先跟委員說明像芭樂我們蘇美花了10年"},{"start":6438.368,"end":6453.856,"text":"那這個10年過程中表示說兩個國家之間的這些檢疫的這些規範並沒有做一個很好的調和所以我們這次談判的目的是希望針對檢疫方面的整個科學根據它的風險能夠有一個比較好的一個調和機制這樣對於我們未來農業部本身的農產品的輸美會有"},{"start":6458.018,"end":6460.06,"text":"我記得上次在經濟委員會臺灣說現在要進入CPTPP就是要以進步國家"},{"start":6482.998,"end":6483.638,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,所有的"},{"start":6513.091,"end":6514.632,"text":"我希望你能做到這一點因為以後是免關稅是世界級的競爭"},{"start":6528.7,"end":6539.466,"text":"免關稅不是所有的東西都免關稅那相對的話會根據我們的產品的優勢去處理臺灣的農業產品都可以銷到美國啦不要他的牛肉豬肉銷來我們臺灣我們不能銷過去啦這樣不合理的啦我想我們一定會"},{"start":6553.362,"end":6555.424,"text":"針對我們的農民的權益包括保護產品的競爭會做到的努力。"},{"start":6570.713,"end":6593.758,"text":"我跟委員報告,風農的部分我們現在基本上經過跟業者協調跟我們內部討論基本上如果說它的蜂蜜的蜜源受到某個程度的損失的時候我們就會把它納入我們的天然災害救助的相關的辦法這個我想已經確定了然後現在我們相關的草案已經擬定了有沒有"},{"start":6594.808,"end":6594.828,"text":"再來"},{"start":6623.483,"end":6633.292,"text":"最近你在討論公糧收購的價格提高你是看你的講話的意思是不怎麼贊成提高啊"},{"start":6634.648,"end":6662.294,"text":"我跟委員說明齁其實包括希望公糧收購提高背後的目的都是希望我們農民的所得能夠確保跟甚至於提高嘛我想這個是大家一致性的但是在討論到針對農民所得的確保到農所得的確保的時候他有很多種方式跟他的配套作為那公糧直接啟動公糧的價格提高只是一個方法之一那這個方法是不是唯一的"},{"start":6663.474,"end":6677.17,"text":"我們認為不是唯一的我們還有其他的方法可以去做相關的處理一個很簡單的道理你們的說法都互相矛盾不會你說你的道良是為了會影響到"},{"start":6678.191,"end":6703.565,"text":"那個糧食的安全你的報告又說臺灣的稻米生產過剩怎麼會影響到糧食的安全還有你的報告裡面如果供糧提高收購的價格農民又轉做來做稻糧但是我要提醒你一句話我們新任的農業部長農民的期望他不管怎麼樣"},{"start":6704.585,"end":6726.797,"text":"因為所有的物價都在上漲你供糧收購沒有上漲包括你的那個雅恩愛啦各方面都在上已經都在上漲供糧收購你不上漲啊你變成啊我們農民的一個罪人你一定會受到評舉我希望這點好好的你要做一個影響"},{"start":6727.797,"end":6730.158,"text":"但是你趕快出來啊每次下鄉農民都問到說要吃什麼你給他們保證說"},{"start":6754.378,"end":6756.82,"text":"臺灣的糧食已經過剩了所謂影響到糧食的安全問題"},{"start":6779.059,"end":6799.129,"text":"整個的糧食安全本身他有適當的面積去處理重水道還有另外一個最重要的考量就是水資源你們都在這一邊啦你們不想要去你們講的理由不充分等你正式糾正我就好好來檢討這個問題我們做可以做完整的一個規劃再跟委員說明"},{"start":6800.302,"end":6800.782,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":6847.801,"end":6868.036,"text":"副委員長副委員長我們4月17日之後去屏東我們是要去追這個雞蛋企劃的公開透明是我那天看起來"},{"start":6870.086,"end":6893.847,"text":"去的委員都生氣啦我看楊瓊英脾氣很好了楊瓊英委員都動怒都發火了他剛剛又問也動怒了然後講本期的辦公室很多民眾打電話進來是在抗議的我們現在就事論事我們來看一天要怎麼做三點的決定對不對雞蛋去化的影帶要完整的公開在4月30號以前農業部的官網要公開"},{"start":6896.297,"end":6913.938,"text":"你們有完整公開了嗎?還是把我們委員會的決議當成是空氣?我好想當初在委員會也跟委員說明了就是我們每一天的錄影帶的本身有沒有它是每一天每一天的那個直接進到我現在去看你的來下一張"},{"start":6916.701,"end":6944.374,"text":"我去你的官網裡面看,農業部官網裡面看你上傳了三部影片嘛對不對?那三部其實就是我們去民眾看到的啊那這個沒有違反我們那一天經濟委員會做的決議嗎?決議裡面有兩個點很重要喔第一個只要完整,第二個叫做公開透明對不對?你這個三個有叫做完整嗎?有公開透明嗎?你回給本席你還說你的那個檔案太大"},{"start":6946.788,"end":6955.722,"text":"有檔案太大問題嗎?6.7TB你放上YT整理完很快就可以上去啦這個沒有容量的限制啊"},{"start":6956.584,"end":6983.383,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我們當我們進到官網全部的官網我們所有的影片絕對可以公開我我剛才說過的就是我們公開的部分是讓外界知道齁我們的整個的進口進口那個過期雞蛋的報備過程中都有第三方監督的整個流程他只是一個流程的部分但是如果說需要的話可以來索索取我們就會給他所以保證保證現在有幾個問題第一呢這是本委員會我們這個去屏東衝突的"},{"start":6988.647,"end":7013.348,"text":"白紙黑字嘛對不對你也在現場啊裡面就是完整公開啊怎麼只有三部呢這是第一個對不對第一個是數位化時代資訊化的時代啊你怎麼講說檔案太大呢你們不是有很多資訊人員嗎你有資訊師對不對你親自去問你資訊師問一下這個要上去這個有什麼難的太簡單了現在突然間就是說你本來答應說你每天就應該整理就要上傳了嘛"},{"start":7013.928,"end":7020.207,"text":"第一個你沒有做這個動作所以本期今天非常明確的要求這個是委員會做的決議你要落實的第一個"},{"start":7022.233,"end":7043.146,"text":"每部你把它去融化之後,完整上傳到你們農業部的官網,在外地上面,就是你名稱應該有個範例嘛,這個很容易整理啊,你只要分類啊,你有日期,從哪個倉庫出去了,你去哪個地方去化廠,數量,你照這樣很簡單整個就上去啦,讓人民去檢視嘛,欸柏中,你為什麼從代理部長變成真廚?"},{"start":7045.948,"end":7066.362,"text":"你的民調是不錯的喔你為什麼有些部長被換掉因為民調很不好嘛我跟你講你現在要面對民眾民眾有那麼多憤怒那麼多的生氣可是你還可以爭取當部長因為這個是以前陳其中幹的事啊陳其中下台啦你不要引火焚身喔你要面對民眾去解決問題嘛而且這個是本委員會的"},{"start":7068.428,"end":7079.233,"text":"做這兩點好不好完整上去第二個你用檔案用範例日期倉儲區劃場跟數量很快就可以上去啊讓人民去檢視要不然民眾怎麼會怎麼知道真相"},{"start":7081.014,"end":7107.377,"text":"我跟委員說明喔當初沒有辦法全部上去我們也詢問過相關的資訊的部分因為上去本身是一件事情就是外界在看的時候的本身的那個那個下載的跟那個流量的部分他是一個不是說我上場掛上去就結束了我們也希望我們也提供了就是如果你要其他的日期的時候我們可以來提供那如果說委員覺得說我們這個不對提供給本席啦那第二更重要的你們趕快做這件事啦"},{"start":7107.717,"end":7125.735,"text":"那全民去檢討,我現在是跟你講,你如果不做這個動作我覺得可以,我說如果全部的檔案提供給檢討,我們用整個檔案的部分提供給委員那也容委員能夠同意我們再跟資訊師,因為我們怕我們整個網站掛掉所以如果他真的不能"},{"start":7126.375,"end":7132.96,"text":"掛上去是一件事情,就是後面的流量會引起,對,然後我把個別的所有的東西,上去絕對沒問題,就是後面的流量的不碰碰,然後我們把所有的完整的影片給你,是,了解,了解,了解,"},{"start":7152.774,"end":7162.601,"text":"五千五百八十萬顆是那時候的一個截止從包括我們在報廢的一個專案處理是五千五百八十萬顆那五千七百七十二萬顆它是包含那個時間的截止點前還有一百多萬顆它是陸續做銷毀的"},{"start":7181.189,"end":7205.875,"text":"所以最後總共是5772所以這兩個數目是差了192萬顆就對了沒有我分兩個部分解釋5580萬顆是我們做專案的這些報廢的招標嘛有沒有包括我們招標去做堆肥做去化這是一件事情在這個之前我們有陸續的去處理它的報廢的雞蛋的時候它有大概100多萬顆所以加起來是5772萬顆所以正確的數目是5772萬顆嘛對不對是不是這樣對嘛"},{"start":7210.496,"end":7229.25,"text":"你消失了190萬顆你要交代清楚嗎對190萬顆這個190萬顆其實在我們的官網就一直就會有出現那我強調的是5580萬顆是我們專案在處理的部分包括我們招標4000多萬的部分因為委員那時候一直強調這個4000多萬本身的那個5580萬好所以現在明確的數目是不是消毀了5780萬顆對不對對5580萬顆加190萬顆那如果這樣的話你後面那個"},{"start":7236.435,"end":7259.475,"text":"錢的事情就不對啦你用去算的是用500...不是用後面這個你用前面啦你那個齁真的是一日三價啦 欸 否定存起這種告例要銷毀的錢要多少錢一日三價你今天這是全民買單喔把數目字你到底買了多少錢銷毀用了多少錢能不能給我一口價很清楚的價格"},{"start":7265.56,"end":7284.706,"text":"我所得到的資訊就是我們農業部在112年本身我們補助的續展會是8.2億嘛對不對然後今年度因為他是年度結帳的那今年度續展會並沒有還沒有來跟我們去做相關的計畫的一些申請"},{"start":7285.726,"end":7286.847,"text":"而且這些雞蛋本身"},{"start":7304.858,"end":7318.422,"text":"右邊的這個明確右邊的是對今天第一次出現有史以來我們最後一年快一年了第一最明確的數目是另外再加上前面的你說買單買了多少8.2億8.2嘛加起來應該13億啊沒有沒有8.2億是涵蓋了去化的4.7億不是相加的"},{"start":7325.964,"end":7326.184,"text":"我們補助的是8.21啊"},{"start":7338.933,"end":7339.873,"text":"二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7358.479,"end":7381.602,"text":"中央市長會的職位都下台的時候不是一個錯誤,所以你覺得搞不好還有貪污的問題?超市到底算了多少錢?我告訴你,如果委員認為有貪污問題,我想盡可能可以從檢調單位來調查,我覺得都可以,但是它不是一個錯誤的政策。OK,今天對媒體來講就很重要了,去化花了4億709萬,然後整體加起來這是一個錯誤政策,超過10億,所以我是有一個要求。"},{"start":7382.918,"end":7391.147,"text":"我本席跟我們的委員一直要求2022年中央續產會從日本專案進口雞蛋3080萬顆採購金額2億2502萬我們已經跟你手之手的兩個半夜了"},{"start":7398.442,"end":7417.148,"text":"為什麼都不給我跟委員說明等一下我先明確要求本期要求上開這個2020年日本專案進口雞蛋的採購廠商的名稱採購的數額採購的合約還有為何迴避國會監督已經兩個半列了我跟委員說明合約的部分因為不是農業部訂的是續長會跟第三方訂的那我也請續長會因為合約的公開"},{"start":7425.231,"end":7452.65,"text":"要雙方都同意的時候我們也請市長會去問秉芳秉芳認為他是營業秘密所以我們沒辦法公開因為不是農業部簽約的是乙秉芳那乙秉芳有一方他不同意公開的話我們沒辦法公開市長會自己都是用我們的錢賺回來人員的名字很高那我們現在立法院要求要公開你現在拿不出來市長會本身是一個法人所有的廠商明確廠商都說話不會公開我們都沒辦法監督嗎"},{"start":7453.945,"end":7454.546,"text":"來,那個時間大了我我我沒有"},{"start":7459.793,"end":7459.993,"text":"請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":7498.388,"end":7521.559,"text":"有有有我剛請邱志偉委員發言這個本席諮詢都是一項遵守時間對是委員會的好模範行政跟立法互相尊重理性監督一項是本席的問政原則請陳部長來請陳部長"},{"start":7529.386,"end":7546.362,"text":"市長,首先恭喜這個部長,從代理部長徵處為部長。那你兩位正次,一位是湖中醫署長,農糧署,他在管農業部分,那另外一個是高雄區漁會的黃昭青總幹事,他在管漁的部分,是不是這樣做分工?"},{"start":7547.564,"end":7575.126,"text":"對一個是負責農糧的部分一個是負責漁業的部分所以這樣分工我覺得是一個很好的組合加上你在部裡面也服務過那麼多年所以所有業務你都熟悉我想請教幾個問題就是說國民黨上禮拜去中國阿他對台灣的農業的推廣或者是農民的這個權益有具體的幫助嗎還是針對特定的項目一些小時小會"},{"start":7576.912,"end":7598.048,"text":"沒有什麼大格局對臺灣整體的農業有沒有任何幫助呢?我想就是有部分的委員到中國去訪問我想我們會絕對會尊重但是扯到相關的農產品會因為這樣子的一個開放事實上到目前為止我們並沒有受到正式的通知"},{"start":7599.329,"end":7621.143,"text":"所以那只是說說而已,具體要落實還是要回歸到行政權?對,所有的農產品貿易一定是經過正式的一個檢驗平台那是放煙火的嘛,放煙火,那看一看,好像這個很絢爛,好像表面上有一些成績,但具體上是零,是虛的所以這是務虛,要務實還是要回到行政部門,對不對?"},{"start":7623.945,"end":7643.078,"text":"五二零之前會不會中國用這些把農業當作統戰的工具或者來打壓或者是對台灣的農業來打壓或者進行一些五二零之前的一些小動作有沒有可能我想所有的可能都有但是我們還是"},{"start":7644.739,"end":7673.694,"text":"我們走我們自己的路我們針對我們的農產品包括現在的鳳梨被禁的鳳梨包括蓮霧包括文旦其實我們都針對這些品項我們去做一個處理市場風扇風扇是非常重要不能這個依賴這個中國市場因為中國市場是危險的市場雖然市場很巨大但是它是我們敵國對不對很容易把這個農業產品農業視為他們的這個統戰工具或者是政策的攻擊工具對不對"},{"start":7674.574,"end":7674.814,"text":"實施的目標是農業及農業民。（"},{"start":7700.771,"end":7702.693,"text":"對,我了解齁,就是我跟委員說明齁,就是說"},{"start":7718.59,"end":7740.32,"text":"當中國限制的漁產品、農產品出口的時候,我們積極拉抬其他的第三市場。你看石斑魚到日本是有成果嘛。那你看香港同樣是東亞,那韓國市場也可以去開拓啊。不要只覺得日本,日本當然有它的市場,但是還是有它的局限性嘛。所以我希望說是未來東南亞也可以。"},{"start":7741.448,"end":7741.568,"text":"主席"},{"start":7768.118,"end":7791.904,"text":"這個你回一下我想整個目前的全球化我想我們國際市跟產業主管機關都已經在做整體的佈局那一個非常重要的就是通路的連結啦因為通路連結這個問題已經告訴你們是說中國的市場很不穩定充滿了威脅充滿了這個不確定性所以你要提及早佈局到其他包括日本包括東南亞包括這個韓國那另外這個"},{"start":7796.778,"end":7819.866,"text":"四、五月大概是裕和包的產季。對。那今年為何裕和包的產季,為什麼今年的產量會那麼的少?主要的原因是什麼?我想那個荔枝跟龍眼一樣,它在開花的時候它需要一些涼溫。那今年那個溫度,就是溫度比較高,造成它的涼溫度不夠。有可能會變成說,這個常態性的嘛。"},{"start":7820.826,"end":7847.78,"text":"這個就是我們擔心的對 面臨長期擔心你知道這個育兒包一年的產季只有這短短的兩個禮拜三個禮拜對剩兩個禮拜那他們一年的這個投入就是為了這兩三個禮拜的這個產季那如果產量大減他們收入大部分是血本無歸啊是那這個有沒有相關補償措施呢我跟委員說明喔我現在正在思考就是這種極端天候對於果樹因為果樹不能移動"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7867.048,"text":"我想以後可能這種遇到這種天然災害的那個頻度會越來越高所以未來整個的產區的可能的一個千的板塊的移動我想我們正在做評估那至於說怎麼樣讓現有的這些癒合包等這些荔枝齁能夠忍受更多的"},{"start":7870.689,"end":7894.643,"text":"因為它的收入跟去年比較是收入減少了七成那有沒有對相關的農民有相關的補償?我現在是沒有,現在只是針對天然災害那廣義來說它也是天然災害是極端氣候所引起高溫所引起的產量最低減所以這部分我想你們還是要體恤的農民因為他靠天吃飯靠天氣那這種要補償或者相關的補貼措施"},{"start":7898.376,"end":7924.417,"text":"我們現在是用天然災救助啦那當然他只是補他的成本而已啦那其他的產業的輔導我想我們還會做進一步的資料再提供給我就是我還有很多議題但是我要示範什麼叫做理性的監督理性的問政好時間到此好謝謝邱智偉委員接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言呂委員發言之後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":7928.188,"end":7928.528,"text":"謝謝主席,請陳部長"},{"start":7947.003,"end":7954.731,"text":"委員長,在前年的6月的時候,臺美雙方都有宣布說要啟動臺美21世紀的貿易倡議。本倡議也提供了12項談判的內容,在去年6月1號已經簽署了。第二次的談判也有啟動了。"},{"start":7967.844,"end":7974.105,"text":"中間的話這個也特別觸及到我們針對於農業還有勞動跟我們環境中間的這個農業的部分那臺美這個除了討論這個糧食的安全以外我們的農業創新的技術跟合作的機制在這個我們也有向美國表達希望能夠准許我們的香腸啊肉鬆跟鳳梨芒果農產品都能夠出口出口"},{"start":7995.171,"end":8009.045,"text":"來減低對大陸對我貿易壁壘這個手段對我們農產品的出口造成的一個衝擊對不對對我想這次的這次的那個農產那個談美的貿易倡議的一個談判本身所以部長我們是農業部有參加嗎"},{"start":8011.046,"end":8036.152,"text":"對,農業部,我們是配合OTN,因為OTN主談的,我們農業部有派人參加那最主要的談判的內容是鎖定在整個的一個以科學為根據、風險為依據的一個農產品貿易的一個相關的國際規範好,那既然我們農業部有全程參加的話,本席想請問的就是說有沒有針對一些我們像美豬啊美牛的一些限制他們有提出來討論呢?"},{"start":8037.219,"end":8052.439,"text":"我想我們在這一次的農產品的那個臺美貿易倡議的一個談判並沒有針對個案的部分我想我們都是用通案的方式我想我們在乎的是我們怎麼樣能夠盡快的把我們臺灣農產品輸到美國嘛這輸到美國會牽涉到檢疫的談判"},{"start":8055.983,"end":8083.533,"text":"那檢疫牽扯到後面的科學根據跟它的風險我們希望說兩國的這個檢疫的科學根據跟風險能夠一致化,這樣的話更快委員會這麼問的話是因為我們瞭解到美國非常關心這個美牛美豬的這個問題那尤其在這一次第二次談判又是農業部又部長您這邊都有全程在參加我們擔心的他們提出來之前的話像美牛美豬有萊克多巴胺的問題那尤其是這個牛隻的這個比較"},{"start":8084.313,"end":8096.081,"text":"高階層、高層危險的這個部分含有萊克多巴胺的我們都沒有開放那如果在這一次已經你第二次的第一輪已經談完了那第二輪會是什麼時候開始會不會再談到這個問題"},{"start":8098.069,"end":8109.821,"text":"我想整個的談判的時程沒有一定的說什麼時候一定要談完那第二次會什麼時候呢第二次可能會透過視訊我想OTN會再安排用視訊的方式但是我要再次強調的是以農業部的立場針對相關的農產品的部分我們一定會維護我們本身的農業"},{"start":8116.167,"end":8118.128,"text":"對,我想以農業部的立場,我想我們會重視整個消費者的安全,也會重視我們產業的一個穩定性。"},{"start":8143.032,"end":8152.336,"text":"好那接下來就是我們看到農業部非常關心我們的花蓮農產品的問題因為地震的關係那尤其是在這整個我們有提供的這個預算將近14億1830萬的預算要來振興提振這個花蓮的農產品那特別我們農業部又跟行政院爭取了1.83億要用發"},{"start":8169.082,"end":8169.923,"text":"）立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":8186.238,"end":8207.49,"text":"三點的時候我們當時啊就是說消費進了滿六百元我們可以登錄發票去抽兩百元的農油件當時我們預備的是有三十萬張結果活動結束之後只有三萬兩千一百八十五張不到一成現在你又要發農油件這個會不會得不到預期的效果呢"},{"start":8208.15,"end":8236.278,"text":"我想我們發不管是過去的疫情期間的農油券跟現在的一個相關的農油券你認為這個有疫情的效果嗎?會提到民眾的意願嗎?兩個的樣態不一樣一個是在疫情,疫情的時候是當下大家緊張不敢出門那跟現在的花蓮地震是那個區域本身因為交通的關係讓其他的地區的人想進去進不去"},{"start":8236.958,"end":8258.7,"text":"我們有潛力給你參考請你們要好好的考量那本席是建議啦既然你有心要讓花蓮的農產品能夠銷售你不如用市價跟農民買農產品再幫忙農民去銷售這樣子實質的幫助農民才會更有效這個操作上有它的困難度啦"},{"start":8259.321,"end":8261.583,"text":"我希望你能考量用試駕奶農產品幫助他們產銷這才是最重要的比較實質性的好不好好"},{"start":8282.621,"end":8282.781,"text":"財政局局長"},{"start":8297.722,"end":8298.082,"text":"部長,我不熟悉齁"},{"start":8321.149,"end":8332.034,"text":"不是往南部移我們全台灣的茶產有南部也有北部尤其是北部桃園是最重要的地方所以我這次特別要針對茶改廠遷移的問題我們要來表達這五個理由不要牽場第一個理由就是桃園生根茶葉的19的歷史在民國前九年就已經成立了到現在121年的歷史是有非常歷史保存的價值"},{"start":8346.96,"end":8350.223,"text":"二、多元的茶文化尤其是高山茶還有我們當地的東方美人茶、烏龍茶、紅茶、綠茶等等這都顯示我們桃園的茶文化是非常多元的發展第三項就是我們茶產業桃園是重要的農業的產業"},{"start":8365.836,"end":8366.176,"text":"臺灣北桃"},{"start":8387.503,"end":8387.563,"text":"．立法院議員"},{"start":8409.73,"end":8436.459,"text":"知慧茶園也鼓勵我們的茶農還有我們的茶園能夠導入智慧型的灌溉包括是微氣象感測這個裝置我們都有在裝置這個科學的設備所以讓我們整個茶改廠的這個建立的這個多樣化跟多元性的智慧科技都因應在這個大的數據的收集如果被你遷移的話這個未來可能會遭受到我們整個桃園北部這個茶葉發展的很大的一個傷害"},{"start":8438.82,"end":8444.942,"text":"所以在這邊具體的請求這個我們部長你下任新的政府你還是農業部的部長請桃園的兩年的茶改廠有121年的這個歷史請你們要注重我們茶改廠那個遷廠會影響我們桃園茶的產業所以北部的茶產業的發展也拜託我們張市長希望我把這個重要的意見交給部長茶改廠未來能夠繼續留在我們桃園這一點請部長"},{"start":8468.612,"end":8468.952,"text":"李玉琳委員"},{"start":8515.612,"end":8516.192,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8531.715,"end":8555.583,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8559.798,"end":8574.542,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）"},{"start":8582.331,"end":8582.591,"text":"主席"},{"start":8595.799,"end":8605.546,"text":"二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）"},{"start":8616.834,"end":8638.603,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8638.643,"end":8666.829,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8670.342,"end":8670.362,"text":"委員（"},{"start":8689.692,"end":8703.26,"text":"一、審查一、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、"},{"start":8717.27,"end":8717.31,"text":"主席"},{"start":8734.984,"end":8750.58,"text":"二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）完整會議二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）完整會議"},{"start":8752.398,"end":8771.798,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8794.617,"end":8797.199,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言謝謝"},{"start":8805.165,"end":8805.185,"text":"陳婉嫻議員"},{"start":8814.915,"end":8831.923,"text":"委員好部長您好我們只有4分鐘一樣繼續關心這個國產乳的學童乳的政策在之前會期的質詢的時候部長已經承諾答應會把這個國產乳的部分放進學童營養午餐對不對但是這個政策我覺得我們國人要一起關心其實從2013年馬政府時代就開放這個台紐協定導致"},{"start":8835.825,"end":8863.973,"text":"我們現在一路以來要面對這個問題那明年全面開放我們知道我們手上有一份農業部給我們的資料你們其實不管是在生產環境或是提升產品的消費的部分或者是穩定肉牛的部分你們都已經在做相關資源的盤點了但是我們這邊要快速確認一下因為今天已經五月多了那學校的營養午餐採購案要準備開始了進行到九月的部分那關於這個血統乳的部分目前相關的進度或者是跟教育部目前討論的狀況"},{"start":8865.493,"end":8891.222,"text":"我想跟委員說明我們跟教育部部長我親自跟他部長有討論過而且我們也兩個部位會嫌會嫌報行政院然後預計是在那個九月份的那個時間開始那現在就是可能要看行政院是不是要等到520以後再處理我不知道這個我不瞭解因為我們已經抱怨了那我們希望說能夠盡快的就是"},{"start":8892.122,"end":8913.165,"text":"能夠有一個明確的答案然後後續的規劃大概一個禮拜兩餐嘛那比較重要就是後面的牛奶的供應我們不希望被特定的現在大的盧賓長綁住了我們希望說能夠讓小農有沒有這些小的弱農能夠結合起來它是產品是被確認過的然後有一個平台能夠供應"},{"start":8914.026,"end":8941.114,"text":"這個我們現在做後面細部的連結應該是說後續有非常非常多落地的政策跟細節對需要農業部跟教育部確實需要好好溝通如同您剛剛說的到底供應的頻率是多少還有目前我們聽到之前部長告訴我們說目前只有落在國小端可是如果回到農業部補助三張EQ的這個議題其實到國中端甚至還有完中的高中部那這個部分有沒有機會往下延伸"},{"start":8941.954,"end":8956.842,"text":"以我個人來講我當然希望國小、國中甚至到高中、完中的部分但是這牽扯到整個經費的來源跟經費的額度啦那這個部分我想我們如果有機因為我想以過去的慣例行政院一定會開一個專案會議那我會在專案會議去表達我們的一個期待"},{"start":8962.553,"end":8987.202,"text":"所以我想如果要等到520之後才來討論那我們辦公室也會先跟部長這邊討論到底我們目前看到第一線營養午餐如果要把血統乳放進去可能還會發生一些問題我們辦公室也會積極再跟農業部討論包含其實也有南部的區立委提醒我們薄酒乳可能是比較適合北部的血統他們在運送端比較方便可是如果在南部的話其實如果是冷藏的鮮奶是更好的"},{"start":8988.242,"end":9013.618,"text":"部長這個部份假設有像這樣雙軌制目前你們有規劃進去嗎?我們當然沒有排除可是我們更擔心的是有些學童喝一半他不了解他把他收了帶回家喝那就反而會有食安的問題反而會有食安我們擔心的是這個而且教育部也擔心這個對我們確實會有更多的配套那其實還有家長提醒我們有些小孩他有乳糖過敏但也不是合乎有牛乳但相關的預算資源撥補下去之後"},{"start":9015.76,"end":9035.879,"text":"最後一個部分我們看到農業部有提到相關的乳品消費未來還要納入所謂的弱勢跟長者的供應這個部分目前的規劃進度是?我們當初的一個構想就是說現在目前的牛奶本身我們的合理的目標值應該是43萬噸但是實際上大概現在46今年可能到49"},{"start":9037.06,"end":9054.036,"text":"所以我們在這樣的過程中如果說他沒有辦法達到一個目標的時候那我們會啟動一個吼就是類似透過綠色造物的關係的一個就是另外一個平台機制去消化掉這些是我們不要說消化掉啦就把這些牛奶提供給需要的弱勢的團體透過我們綠色造物"},{"start":9055.697,"end":9055.797,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝陳部長 謝謝"},{"start":9084.437,"end":9084.457,"text":"紅夢開委員"},{"start":9106.771,"end":9129.25,"text":"陳代理部長,520之後才會徵處。不過不管怎麼樣,重點在於是一定要被為我國人把關。早上我們有委員也已經有出示說有國小的學童有關心現在有所謂的這個進口乳跟民要變成是長效乳來保護落農的生計。部長有看到這個明信片嗎?"},{"start":9129.87,"end":9140.436,"text":"我沒有看到但是那個委員有那種唸是我也唸一下因為我覺得這真的是讓國人以及讓學童都知道他說是"},{"start":9142.225,"end":9162.841,"text":"臺南某地區的六年級學生經過班級乳牛專題課程之後得知2025年紐西蘭液態乳進口恐嚴重影響我國酪農業請你支持修法採取行動將校期達兩個月以上的進口乳更名為長效乳以保障我國酪農生計"},{"start":9165.391,"end":9177.343,"text":"農業部有沒有收到這樣的一個信?我本身沒有收到,沒有收到。好,那是不是等一下我質詢完,我也把這一份也送給我們部長,好不好?因為我想這也代表是說我們這個"},{"start":9178.968,"end":9194.98,"text":"一般的民眾大家都願意關心的話那代表這是好事那更重點是說現在部長之前有講到是說進口乳要更名為長效乳是跟衛福部食藥署建議那目前的進度到底為何我們這樣子齁就是現在目前的一個"},{"start":9196.041,"end":9196.101,"text":"﹚立法院議員"},{"start":9215.124,"end":9215.825,"text":"衛福部的動作如何?"},{"start":9233.378,"end":9258.229,"text":"對於國人來講是這不能說拆兩段啊因為政府是一體的嘛我想我們也很急到所以我想我們也會再持續的跟衛務部溝通因為啟動開專家會議或相關的決定是由衛務部來做相關的權責嘛所以我們會積極的跟衛務部來洽談看看可不可以請他們快一點的確認因為這牽扯到我們後續的國產乳的一個標示的區隔的一個有效的作為"},{"start":9259.704,"end":9274.152,"text":"那好那這樣子部長因為現在衛福部他有可能520之後才有新任部長要上任是但是你這邊是徵處嗎所以國人當然會希望是說我們一體的趕快來作業趕快來把這樣子一個國人所關心的議題給把它確認"},{"start":9276.425,"end":9277.725,"text":"部長,之前有提到說農業部要一個月內提出相關方案,那是什麼樣的方案?"},{"start":9300.834,"end":9329.513,"text":"整個內容本身長效爐只是在整個落農去支持落農產業的一個方案那這個部分講的是長效爐的部分但是我們提的方案是一個完整的從那個牧場的端到整個的一個加工端早上有講到是說總共方案是29億的預算那個方案我們已經抱怨了對是那什麼時候會出來因為現在有看到是說很多的落農業者都還要計劃直接北上"},{"start":9330.333,"end":9356.604,"text":"那會不會在520之前反而我們新任政府新任總統要上任之後同時間會有抗議抗議草?我想以農業部的立場就是我們政策是持續的而且我們已經抱怨了那抱怨我所了解現在大概在上個禮拜嘛上個禮拜已經進到國會審完已經進到行政院了那我們也透過管道希望說行政院能夠能夠盡快的去做這樣的一個核試因為"},{"start":9357.404,"end":9361.726,"text":"所以部長我比較直接請教有沒有信心能夠拆彈成功讓弱農業者不要北上來抗議有沒有信心"},{"start":9383.273,"end":9409.488,"text":"因為如果說既然方案也提出來你也掌握這個時間那還有就是說我們現在政府並不是不做事啊其實你看得出來說我們也要照顧我們的弱農業者我們要照顧我們的名稱需求那有沒有信心我想我個人來講我會盡最大的努力那我相信應該可以好我相信應該可以我們一起努力好不好謝謝部長那部長這一份資料也請您帶回去好謝謝洪國元謝謝陳部長謝謝"},{"start":9413.713,"end":9413.993,"text":"陳冠廷發言陳部長"},{"start":9438.869,"end":9452.668,"text":"今天是要反映一下關於這個雞蛋產地跟批發價價格下跌那有一些消費者他們有特別談到說為什麼消費端他沒有辦法降價的部分那我們來看一下下一個圖表"},{"start":9454.128,"end":9473.768,"text":"其實這個雞蛋的蛋價已經連續兩週它下跌那已經創下兩年的新低那產地的價格現在每公斤只剩抱歉每斤剩35.5元相當於35元的成本那臺北的批發價也從去年高點的55元跌到現在的45元所以說跌幅已經超過18%"},{"start":9475.109,"end":9495.936,"text":"那我們接到一些氧基協會的這些訊息他是說端午節端午節會是淡季那很憂心淡價的崩盤部長想請教一下那產地淡價下跌批發市場淡價下跌那消費端的這個部分包含便利商店啊或者是很多我們會去光顧的早餐店這個淡價有下跌嗎"},{"start":9497.233,"end":9518.722,"text":"我跟委員說明就是整個雞蛋的一個價格的波動我想我們原則上還是尊重市場的機制那因為產地跟批發跟農業部比較有關的他可能跟短時間之內的需求跟供應會有一些波動性的調整那這個我想我們隨時在監控我現在最重要的是消費端根本不理我們"},{"start":9520.038,"end":9531.704,"text":"就是說你產地消費平均大概降了10塊,最高點嘛,大概10塊了可是產地端本身它總有很多很多的理由就是不動如山啦那我覺得這個部分"},{"start":9533.427,"end":9554.44,"text":"的確是我們該重視的問題因為我們當然是尊重市場機制市場機制基本上是這個我們國家基本上信實的價值的原則那如果多次的這種干預的話反而會擾亂市場機制但是產地漲價消費端跟著漲價是合理的但是你說產地價格大跌"},{"start":9554.94,"end":9555.18,"text":"市場有這個這個價格的一個"},{"start":9578.14,"end":9598.234,"text":"等於說有被刻意操縱的時候我想政府內部應該有一個機制包括可以請公民會這邊來介入一些一些瞭解但是現在的那個雞蛋本身的那個價格不下來是普遍性的他不是說特定的一個一個超商不降幾乎包括早餐店他也不怎麼降"},{"start":9599.054,"end":9626.724,"text":"所以它變成是一個普遍性那普遍性的問題可能要另外一個機制去處理我們今天提這個意思不是說我們要求說他們一定要降或者說哪一個一定要漲或是說在市場機制的能夠容許的範圍之內當然是要依照市場機制所以說為什麼我們今天為什麼要提出相關的我們今天的草案的修正為什麼會提出這一個第35條的修正條文就是希望農產品的市場交易不要受到擾亂那這些價格的快速波動我想這是農業部苦惱的問題"},{"start":9628.204,"end":9651.903,"text":"那這種消費者痛苦然後農產品暴跌農民血本無歸那不管是消費者或者是農民我們怎麼樣讓他價格平穩那當然就是我們農業部最重要的工作那包含我們的颱風漲價學都有時候臨近的國家開始發布漲颱風警報颱風還沒有來葉菜金就全部都先漲一波就算後來沒有登錄但是價格還是不會立即下降"},{"start":9653.223,"end":9681.582,"text":"這樣我們認為說每次這樣臺芬新習一出來的話大龐商可能就又割了一波所以另外就是透過社群媒體的錯假亂訊息今天早上我有特別提到只要重商某一項農產品他就可以吸引平面媒體、電視媒體、社群媒體來去引者消費者的恐慌比方說保齡案就是這樣子因為一開始找不到元兇所以馬上這個不斷的在社群媒體在放話說啊這個餐廳的木耳有問題啊那結果消費者恐慌結果我們影響到我們嘉義縣中埔鄉的產地"},{"start":9682.463,"end":9701.381,"text":"甚至他們有一些本來已經要輸入給軍方的啊 通常又臨時就停止當然我們是尊重國防部軍方自己的這種決定嘛其實說因為這種消費端的這種恐慌或者是說有人特意操弄導致整個農產品甚至整個農產業全面性的這一個被"},{"start":9702.402,"end":9710.848,"text":"被影響到這當然是非常負面的所以我們需要說部長這一次齁包含我看農業部第一時間都有出來去提這個問題嘛那當然還有衛福部有第一時間就講說哪一些產品與此無關哪一些產品有關哪一些產品無關"},{"start":9717.853,"end":9734.398,"text":"那馬上就有做釐清所以第一波有止血那未來希望說部長這個委員之後類似這樣的狀況第一時間農業部就要直接介入去了解那第一時間就要把最快速的訊息再提供給特別是危機訊息的管理很重要因為那時候我記得行政院"},{"start":9735.851,"end":9753.404,"text":"的這個相關的這個還特別扯到其他的扯到茶那我不想再在這個傷害那一位齁這個行政官員我只是要提一下說傳遞正確的興趣不要影響到農產品這十案的問題的時候特別需要農業部出來阿第一時間就要出來不要讓他們"},{"start":9755.345,"end":9779.695,"text":"傳一些錯誤訊息都再出來第一時間就趕快結合各縣市的農會一起合作把這些問題提出來的話我們就可以有效克制了解謝謝委員我們針對錯假訊息本身我們有一個機制包括網路的一些搜尋然後包括媒體的這些比較不實的訊息我們都會第一時間就去處理這個部分我想我們會加強努力謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝陳部長謝謝接下來請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":9791.555,"end":9819.905,"text":"謝謝主席一級各位先進有請農業部的陳部長請陳部長來委員長部長一長那麼一個恭喜你了齁爭取了另外一個要求我知道你在代理部長這段時間你很怕出狀況好幾個委員跟你要資料都不給啊都不給啊"},{"start":9821.984,"end":9846.897,"text":"我現在跟你講的這些資料都是其他部會來的,我要同樣東西財政部給我,關路的東西給我,衛福部給我,食藥署的給我,農運部不給,說機密。我想說你剛才就是呼吁你的裡面的一個亂七八糟的事情有工吧,所以你爭取啊,我就一個要求,拜託你也拜託,"},{"start":9849.793,"end":9850.88,"text":"我們去問要資料可以給嗎?"},{"start":9851.96,"end":9875.867,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明齁以我個人的立場齁如果能夠給的資料我一定給當然要給啊但是有一些資料不是我能夠決定的時候我就必須要去請教農業部有什麼資料我都是要比如說我要你進口單的資料這該給吧對進口單的資料有非常多因為本身因為所有的執行都是在續產會那你不給啊你管不到續產會不是這個不是管的問題齁請問你續產會的錢從什麼地方來"},{"start":9879.068,"end":9903.761,"text":"不是,市長會有一部分的部分他不是百分之百都是農業部的錢喔農業部錢有多少給他我想會根據計畫方式多少給他,你多少就是看每一年的執行的情況啊最少六七八成嘛對,但是對,相對的就是他沒有辦法每年平均要多少錢占幾成,他的支出多少錢我們大概補八成八成啊"},{"start":9908.558,"end":9909.558,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我絕對不會考慮說長官叫我做什麼我做什麼"},{"start":9930.268,"end":9946.518,"text":"我是要確認說我所給的訊息第一個要正確那第二個就是說這個訊息是不是我農業部可以提供的當然可以提供為什麼我現在跟你講來你們的你們在公告農作房置地1121483343號"},{"start":9950.621,"end":9962.198,"text":"對公布了美國有好幾個州包括紐約州包括Utah是疫區是群流感疫區是結果你11月還進口33噸啊53萬顆啊"},{"start":9967.219,"end":9967.479,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9991.253,"end":9997.94,"text":"來你10月12公告公告的結果呢結果你11月還有進來UTA11月進來14萬噸12月進來33萬噸我是客氣這12月的12月的這12月的所以不是你剛講的那個時間差都沒有這個資料這個資料"},{"start":10012.395,"end":10023.427,"text":"這個資料是我財政部找的資料財政部的資料你10月份公布Utah是一區11月你給它進來14萬噸14萬噸乘以16顆是多少100多萬顆啊然後你12月又給它進來的33萬噸"},{"start":10033.358,"end":10059.693,"text":"這是財政部的資料我就跟你講這個所以你們嚴重失職阿我告訴你如果是真的如委員所講就是嚴重失職但是我相信我們的房檢署絕對不會做這種事情一定是在資料上面的認知上有一些誤解我覺得我可以請房檢署因為今天房檢署的同仁沒有來齁我可以請房檢署到您的辦公室去確認這件事情好你來跟我確認我一定會跟您確認我再次的公布我再跟你講"},{"start":10060.734,"end":10067.995,"text":"10月10號去年的10月10號你公布了美國好幾個州包括紐約包括UTA他是一區"},{"start":10069.805,"end":10094.02,"text":"結果U塔十一月進來十二月進來都一直進口進來疫區不能進來你看金門的蛋就是因為在大陸疫區就不敢進來我跟委員說明喔防監署本身是邊境把關者他不可能照您這樣講的去違法部長再請農業部跟補貸委員說明好不好另外一個題目就是九月份這個你應該知道吧"},{"start":10094.929,"end":10117.579,"text":"你們的土耳其蛋還在法官那裡有86萬顆在那裡53噸的蛋就是說檢驗合格了也沒有報關也沒有進來你知道這批嗎土耳其的蛋您說去年的9月對"},{"start":10119.281,"end":10148.49,"text":"昨年九月我所瞭解齁我記憶中所瞭解土耳其的這些這是在邊境把關的時候去檢測出來的他並沒有進到我們的市場沒有進來對對沒有進來市場有53萬噸來現在在哪裡沒有我覺得要確認一下齁因為到了九月多十月的時候有很多也是民間自己進口的所以我要確認一下您這個的訊息部長是不是回去查清楚這個奈委員做什麼土耳其本有癌症的你們有沒有求償"},{"start":10151.109,"end":10162.03,"text":"已經發生了已經發生不是我們的部分在海關就擋下來了做銷毀那至於說民間自己進來的我們還要去了解"},{"start":10162.962,"end":10163.462,"text":"接下來請張家俊委員發言"},{"start":10196.058,"end":10223.474,"text":"主席我想請部長好請陳部長部長前陣子好雨連連那我想要首先先讓你看一下就是這幾張照片現在是西瓜的採收期那本席最近收到很多農民的陳情最近因為連續下雨雨水浸泡導致很多西瓜裂果包括台西四湖東勢二輪"},{"start":10225.035,"end":10226.056,"text":"李卓人議員李卓人議員"},{"start":10250.293,"end":10258.099,"text":"是否可以競速宣布將雲林的受災西瓜田納入天然災害救助補助?"},{"start":10263.12,"end":10268.205,"text":"目前據我所知是台西四湖東市的四方會刊已經確定達到補助標準那我就問這個部長請問一公頃西瓜補助多少錢"},{"start":10285.36,"end":10309.052,"text":"應該6萬6萬2左右6萬2所以呢這個部分喔既然喔已經啟動了符合了標準開始啟動這個天然災害救助的話希望部裡面這邊可以從速喔競速的來進行相關的流程一定會齁就是四萬會關結束以後縣府就會報農糧署我們就會很快的就會核定了如果說四萬會關過的話就沒問題你看這個瓜裂成這樣"},{"start":10310.929,"end":10317.185,"text":"有沒有西瓜的照片大一點這個你看這整片田都是喔整片田都是"},{"start":10318.44,"end":10341.579,"text":"整片田都是裂光所以這一點拜託我們部長就是天然災害的救助要重減、重寬、重速然後能夠盡速的來幫助農民減少損失是不是可以我想我們一定針對這個相關的現看的結果會盡速的發布是謝謝那部長我想要請問您花生年產值大概是多少"},{"start":10342.895,"end":10369.19,"text":"花生大概一年大概是一萬八千公頃大概三十多萬的產量啦然後看它產地價的話產地價的話大概是現在七十幾塊嘛大概算起來大概是二十多將近三十億那在這期中喔雲林大概占了八成左右那再請教您喔花生的產期是什麼時候您知道嗎"},{"start":10369.85,"end":10395.126,"text":"花生的產期分一期做跟二期做的部分然後一期做的一期做大概六月五六月的時候開始採收嘛那現在我們收到的是去年二期做的部分去年二期做二期做就是11月到12月那當時我們加入WTO的時候我們把配額內的這個額度分散在非產期以避免對產業產生太大的衝擊"},{"start":10397.708,"end":10413.461,"text":"那配額內的關稅較低所以在花生產期內也就是6至7月還有最主要的11至12月如果要進口就是配額外進口關稅比較高那所以呢大概在每公斤64.5元的關稅之上要加21塊那請部長記住21塊這個數字照理來說配額外的"},{"start":10421.087,"end":10421.567,"text":"一、二年11月印度進口100公噸"},{"start":10437.196,"end":10466.436,"text":"一二年十二月印度進口202公噸一二年十二月阿根廷進口100公噸這是從關務署所調到的相關數字那在去年配額外的時間印度跟阿根廷竟然有大量的花生進口那估算這個時間點進口的花生成本其實大大超過了國產花生成本是不是應該去了解為什麼這個時間點會有大量的花生進口呢我想"},{"start":10467.136,"end":10487.432,"text":"一百一十二年因為遇到小水颱風所以我們的產量有適度的降低所以我們的價格還不錯比起前幾年所以貿易商往往會認為說他的價格不錯的時候我如果用國外進口的話我可能會比較好賺所以我們在評估說可能會有一些因為這樣子而進口的"},{"start":10487.912,"end":10494.958,"text":"不是不可能但是呢我算一個簡單的算數好不好你自己再看下一個這上面寫阿根廷106萬除以21理應就是這個12月的進口數量然後53萬再除以21應該就是印度的進口量結果阿根廷是攪鬧了大概這個"},{"start":10510.251,"end":10529.885,"text":"五萬多公斤左右的稅所以他只繳納了就是50.7公噸的額外關稅那印度是繳納了大概是25公噸的額外關稅所以50加25等於75公噸那但是明明就進了明明就進了100加202公噸那剩下的227公噸到哪裡去了"},{"start":10538.766,"end":10545.708,"text":"你聽得懂嗎我了解但是相對的當他有進口資料的時候他就會去繳稅他不可能進來以後賣了以後再繳稅所以啊所以就很奇怪啊那個消失的227公噸去哪裡了現在坊間盛傳去年就有聽聞說可能有駐外單位使用關稅法第49條之相關免稅規定進口本席呢不願意猜測但是所以我要拜託"},{"start":10567.156,"end":10567.196,"text":"主席"},{"start":10597.096,"end":10598.357,"text":"臺灣從2002年加入WTO之後目前花生的關稅為64.5塊是不是應該提高基礎的這個關稅額度"},{"start":10613.194,"end":10632.583,"text":"因為近年來工資啊材料成本都大幅提高那施工環境變遷之下應該要有所檢討這一點也拜託部長演議也請部長為農民著想一定要提高這個基礎的稅額才有辦法保障農民一整年辛苦農作的這樣子的成果"},{"start":10633.257,"end":10651.477,"text":"我跟委員說明齁那個稅不能隨便說我們今天想要的我知道但是你要努力嘛我會用更好的產業的支持的方式去協助我們的產品的競爭力而不是用關於那是不是可以拜託部長把你更好的支持產業的方法部長的一個書面是要給我上來的嗎是要給本席謝謝"},{"start":10657.491,"end":10676.958,"text":"馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在。李柏毅、李柏毅、李柏毅委員不在。洪聖漢、洪聖漢、洪聖漢委員不在。李燕秀、李燕秀、李燕秀委員不在。請蔡益委員發言"},{"start":10688.059,"end":10697.869,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請我們部長請陳部長也請我們署長那個農糧署署署署署署署署署署署署部長"},{"start":10701.906,"end":10728.017,"text":"部長事實上我昨天在嘉義就是役主那以及這個嘉義市農會我開了兩個公聽會那我們署署長都有全程那聽也聆聽很多農民的聲音那我擷取幾個比較我認為比較重要可以馬上跟部長來來做討論的第一個就是說現在我們整個農業部我們這個農事所"},{"start":10731.218,"end":10748.202,"text":"也就是改良廠針對稻穀的一個新的一個種類新的種苗種類我感覺啦這幾年一直沒有推出比較大眾化會被農民接受的種類這幾年啦為什麼感覺上是沒有推出什麼那我要講的就是說"},{"start":10758.527,"end":10770.179,"text":"部長你應該叫農民以現在雲家就是所謂稻米的大宗他們都在種的是哪幾種嗎?第一個就是大概就是...都台南11號啦台南11號嘛台南11號啊台南11號用多久啊?"},{"start":10774.443,"end":10800.414,"text":"我跟委員報告其實就稻米的產業來講單一的品種種單一的品種反而不是好事遇到病狀害的時候沒有緩衝所以我們現在積極的在不同的地區推廣它特色的產品包括像美濃地區的高雄義士七一有沒有然後它的香米系統霧峰的香米的系統然後桃園的部分也有一些不同的品種那我們也會去研議說像農事所"},{"start":10802.415,"end":10803.136,"text":"臺農長期間就是進台南寨一河"},{"start":10822.538,"end":10843.851,"text":"他已經每一天都凍結所以像他過去他的白糖胚就已經都有抗藥性了所以他每一次的盜熱病就非常嚴重所以過去有幾次的嚴重的盜熱病之後農民就會怕到他怕到之後他就要改做抗藥性比較強的也就是台農84號台農84號他的抗藥性比較強可是他的產量是沒有台南11號多"},{"start":10850.575,"end":10873.026,"text":"事實上我主要感覺起來,主要變成好像只有這兩個選擇,阿伯你就選11盒,阿伯你如果走白塘海你就選84盒,阿84盒沒辦法收公牛,所以農民大概也會覺得很失落,因為他覺得對他而言他沒有那麼強的銷售能力,他沒辦法賣給主營牛,他也希望交公牛比較多。"},{"start":10874.227,"end":10881.91,"text":"所以部長我意思是說我們不應該我們農事所應該要推出更多品種讓他們有新的選擇啊為什麼我們在雲家這麼重要的這個稻米的生產基地看起來農民就只有這兩個選擇在那邊痛苦"},{"start":10904.194,"end":10918.328,"text":"委員報告,這個部分我回去會要求農業實驗單位針對這些我們大的糧倉的產區,不論只有一個品種,這第一個。第二點就是說,不在市喔,那時候我都農事做收定委員,它的品種抗病性很好。"},{"start":10918.968,"end":10942.938,"text":"但是他如果萬一早收的時候他的清免率會過高所以造成一些後續的困擾所以那時候才沒有考慮到納入公糧但是在那個地區還有其他的品種是可以去推廣的我想我們會更積極的去做這樣的一個處理如果可以推廣我看農民都很厲害啦他們一定會找出一個最適當的種植的一個產品"},{"start":10946.199,"end":10956.083,"text":"所以我們若提供他們覺得可以他們就會去請我意思是說你像台農84號已經撒出來十幾年了事實上這個很早就要確認說啊好我們若大家納入公糧就趕緊農民去請好你若怕說他的廁所他的這個收割的時候會產生一個比較早收割廁所的狀況這樣就要給他扶著了"},{"start":10973.155,"end":10987.808,"text":"而不是把他放著嘛我了解我們就把他放著然後這情況一直沒有改變我現在最不想看到就是說為什麼這樣雲嘉南這樣的糧倉那他們一直是在做這個台南11號跟這個台農84號這兩個選項二則一然後各有優缺點"},{"start":10992.992,"end":10993.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":11012.289,"end":11025.376,"text":"阿這個品種怎麼樣讓跟產業結合我想我們後續會朝這方面去努力阿好我希望可以齁加速啦齁可以我們趕快看到一點成績齁阿第二個齁每天我們展廣場會我們有話講啦就是這個雜糧的問題啦"},{"start":11027.717,"end":11054.355,"text":"因為現在大家都在討論所謂供糧但是我們也知道整個農業部這幾年來很努力的就是要推廣防小育也就是說我們的糧食自給率應該要朝向說我們每次生產不夠都要靠進口的就是戰牛嘛、有米嘛甚至高粱嘛我們在提升這部分的一個種植的一個空間的時候事實上力道都不夠"},{"start":11055.456,"end":11078.257,"text":"阿這個力道不夠勒,就是說你種植雜糧的,他的收入永遠都比種植稻米的還要少。那這樣他們怎麼會有誘因勒?除了天天條件的一個限制之外,你若白白灌枯,可是你讓他種植雜糧,他的收入勒,不會輸於一般的稻農,這樣當然就有誘因啊,就會耍鬼啊。"},{"start":11079.54,"end":11079.82,"text":"是不是部長?"},{"start":11099.281,"end":11119.444,"text":"部長那個高粱的部分我們另外再談玉米的部分我現在也是在跟現在所有的進口玉米業者在談玉米現在飼料進口大概是8塊多但是我們還是用9塊去收那我是希望說業者進口業者能夠有一些機制能夠來提高他們的收購價那"},{"start":11121.26,"end":11148.266,"text":"那個產品的收購價能夠提高的時候,前端就有它的種植誘因。部長沒有那麼簡單啦,我覺得齁,應該要適度的要去檢討這個高科啦。對啦。你這個高科的東西齁,你就是保價這一塊啦。你如果這塊都沒條件,三十幾年來文風不動齁,事實上你對於整個種植玉米的誘因是一直沒辦法產生的。了解。那我本來有要列舉的這樣的一個成本,要在這算賬給部長廳,沒辦法來時間的因素啦齁。"},{"start":11149.166,"end":11159.715,"text":"這我要呈現的就是說你看起來現在整個成本吼你的身份一分多啦我現在來算吼存的都不要加什麼租金什麼就五千九百三十三十個"},{"start":11160.646,"end":11172.836,"text":"二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．"},{"start":11188.129,"end":11200.553,"text":"就是五六七零還比他的成本還要低這個代表著一個意義就是說我今天有米我錢起來我拿去買啊我買了我拿到的錢比我進走的時候我開啟的身份還要少"},{"start":11203.634,"end":11228.013,"text":"這樣一個誘因起來就會變成說農民對於種植玉米是沒有誘因的誘因是不足的所以我的目標就是說我想要把這個9塊拉高的時候我希望是企業就是買最後買玉米的人齁能夠做有所的投入啦這樣子的話才有辦法把這個9塊往上拉部長是不是在研議之後再跟蔡委員說明了好不好好好啊不然再麻煩了好謝謝謝謝蔡委員謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":11232.341,"end":11252.216,"text":"接下來,謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在。登記發言委員除不在場者外,區域經營已發言完畢,懸答結束。委員黃珊珊、邱益穎、謝一鳳,所提書面諮詢列入記錄,刊登公報。書面諮詢和為其答覆部分,請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":11258.433,"end":11274.873,"text":"我們先處理討論事項第二案農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論廣泛討論無人登記發言請議事人員宣讀條文如果修正動議及附帶決議一併宣讀宣讀完畢我們進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":11277.438,"end":11301.488,"text":"委員陳冠廷等所提農產品市場交易法第三十五條違反第六條第一項第十四條第一項規定者處新台幣六萬元以上三千萬元以下罰還其領有許可證者並廢止許可證違反第六條第二項規定足深損害農產品運銷秩序者處新台幣六萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還宣讀完畢"},{"start":11310.529,"end":11311.23,"text":"先處理預算解凍案稍等會員進來再處理"},{"start":11347.022,"end":11347.162,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":11553.968,"end":11575,"text":"好謝謝各位那我們現在處理預算解凍案那第一案的部分農業部第一案所列預算解凍案我們同意動之請問各位有沒有異議沒有那我們通過農業部第二案所列的預算凍結案我們同意動之請問各位有沒有異議沒有啦沒有我們通過有喔來來來請邱志文"},{"start":11586.652,"end":11586.832,"text":"請邱委員發言"},{"start":11599.281,"end":11622.509,"text":"就是說極端氣候造成這些特殊的這個農作物變成長不是不是這個我發現變常態性的減產比如說你這個我剛剛說的愈合包愈合包他如果因為高溫造成產量劣減像這種東西你們必須要在農業管理去編列相關的"},{"start":11623.729,"end":11645.282,"text":"改善計畫還是用什麼方式來避免這種常態性的發生如果每年他都是遇到這高溫然後又又累減收入減少這個農民生計他一年才一次產計那到底這個農業管理的這些經費有沒有包含對這些受受受氣候影響的這些所所造成的影響"},{"start":11647.315,"end":11668.422,"text":"委員說明現在我們相關的這些計畫裡面都是在做產業的輔導那並沒有針對剛才委員所說的將它產量降到某個程度的時候我們有一個支持性的一個補助的作為那我想我們這個部分我回去會用保險的角度看看用保險的角度去做處理可能會比較實在"},{"start":11669.977,"end":11670.077,"text":"臺風已逝﹗"},{"start":11686.338,"end":11687.019,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11705.649,"end":11734.525,"text":"好那第二案的部分各位有沒有意見我們來請邱志偉來也是一樣這個養牛齁養牛包括落農你這個養牛產業要升級轉型有沒有包括落農就最主要就是落農的部分那主要為什麼要轉型我想齁最主要是面臨的這些台牛的這些對台牛嘛對台牛的那個自由貿易的那些牛奶的進口對"},{"start":11736.852,"end":11761.131,"text":"所以你這個怎麼樣去輔導這個落農全面轉型升級這部分到底你們這次有沒有效果我想我們這整個方案現在已經抱怨了那整個的額度大概是29億那我們從那個寡產的乳牛淘汰會先著手讓我們的乳牛的生產效率會提高然後我們在市場上會做這個"},{"start":11763.332,"end":11779.52,"text":"國內的鮮乳的標示讓它做市場的區隔化最後拉力的部分我們會針對學童營養午餐的部分能夠把牛奶納進去然後也會針對一些弱勢族群我們會提供一個供應的系統讓那個拉力去維持"},{"start":11780.342,"end":11805.193,"text":"那最重要就是說讓我們的國產本身的這些競爭力還是能夠存在我再請教一下部長國內肉牛產業目前這個市佔率大概多少?現在肉牛大部分都是用乳牛淘汰過去去當作肉牛去處理的九成九成大部分都九成進口九成進口所以一成是那你這個所以沒有真正的肉牛產業嘛"},{"start":11805.964,"end":11807.966,"text":"因為是不是國產牛肉跟進口牛肉相對競爭力比較不夠成本相對的比較高"},{"start":11829.89,"end":11835.493,"text":"農業部的預算凍結案第一案到第三案均同意凍結並拟據報告提報院會"},{"start":11853.541,"end":11854.002,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11879.607,"end":11895.587,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我請代表法務部在這裡報告幾點意見提供參考那第一點按照憲法第15條保障人民參選權國家對人民參選權限制應符憲法第二三條比例原則對人民違反行政法上義務行為處以罰還"},{"start":11897.069,"end":11919.554,"text":"涉及對人民財產權的限制﹐其處罰應視違規情節的輕重程度為之必符合憲法﹐責罰相當原則﹐必發者針對應與非難之違反行政法上義務行為的處罰﹐應預留違規情節輕重而以處罰範圍固屬立法形成自由﹐予上應與尊重﹐為所設定的裁量範圍仍應適當﹐以避免造成個案處罰顯然過客而有輕重法﹐"},{"start":11920.154,"end":11939.1,"text":"請清法重之情形。這是司法院釋字第786號解釋意旨請參照。依前所述．對於違反行政義務上的行為．在政策上欲刻以法案為處罰方式時．應有合理上限規定．其上限術以綜合考量行為人之行為違規情節之輕重程度．"},{"start":11939.78,"end":11956.199,"text":"現在公共利益情形等因素為合理規定以無限法第23條規定比例原則與這法相當原則（而且行為人所得利益倘若超過法定法案最高數額者採處法案上可依行政法法第18條第二項規定佐量加重不受法定法案最高額度的限制"},{"start":11956.98,"end":11982.833,"text":"因此,第三點,基於函則行為人違法勤節及有效遏阻不法行為之考量．在法制作業上．罰完額度日上下限差具倍數．原則上以3倍至5倍為宜．必要時得依立法目的考量提高為6倍至10倍．真相,基於達成特別重大公共利益考量．另有必要擴大的話．還是建議參酌司法院釋字第786號解釋文解釋意旨．設定釋章的採取範圍。第四點,"},{"start":11986.212,"end":12008.187,"text":"關於各行政作用法這法案的話建議要注意到它的橫平性原則那我在這裡舉例就是以農業部主管的法案來講的話農產品生產及驗證管理法第二十七條它裡面有規定說對於散播有關農產品的這個謠言或不實訊息的話處罰環是六萬到三十萬"},{"start":12009.068,"end":12033.85,"text":"另外,《糧食管理法》第十五條之一也有規範不得故意散播謠言或不實訊息。在《糧食管理法》第十八條之三也有規定對違反者處罰的法案是六萬到三十萬。同樣屬於農業部主管的法律來講彼此之間性質上是有比較相近的地方"},{"start":12035.891,"end":12041.673,"text":"你意思是說要有一致性?對,橫平性相類似的話,建議是橫平性相關的罰則,處罰精神,它的罰則應該是要有橫平性跟一致性那這個有沒有修正動議?"},{"start":12053.237,"end":12076.565,"text":"我先把它說完好了好不好,請法務部把它先說明是,那在這裡就是說我們是尊重大院的審查以及這個主管機關的意見因為還有特別可以跟各位委員報告一個可以參考的就是去年大院所通過的政卷投資信託及顧問法增訂第113條之一對於這個平台業者他那個不下架廣告的話他的處罰還是12萬到60萬"},{"start":12078.826,"end":12103.079,"text":"那所以說我是在這裡給這個各位的建議就是說假設認為說有必要要提高的話我是建議說那個法案的級距不要差距的拉的過大那第二個就是說假設說認為上限應該提高的話那下限是不是也酌情把它提高上去那第三個就是說這三個法案農產品"},{"start":12104.991,"end":12105.011,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":12136.721,"end":12154.548,"text":"邱志榮,請現行條文是6萬以上跟30萬以下罰款跟費政那你現在這個陳委員的提案那是6萬以上跟3000萬以下剛剛你們的報告也都寫得很清楚就是要一致跟和平性"},{"start":12155.836,"end":12173.893,"text":"那你們也建議說這個把下限把它提高下限提高我覺得也可以那如果用5倍或者10倍來看如果把下限提高到30萬然後這個上限提高5倍到150萬或者10到300萬30萬到300萬"},{"start":12179.488,"end":12199.749,"text":"下限是三百萬那上限到三百萬三十到三百十倍那個部長我們統一講完再一起請部長答覆好不好沒有人要講啊邱志偉委員晚那個蔡議員然後鄭天才委員齁來蔡議員先發言好不好那發言我們一起讓部長回應"},{"start":12203.223,"end":12209.621,"text":"欸第一個是說針對法的這個一致性吼那我是希望說我們今天是不是就農產品"},{"start":12210.876,"end":12234.278,"text":"市場交易就是單步這一步法的法則我們先做一個有實質有效的討論那並且可以讓他出委員會那接下來還有其他的包括糧食管理法了怎樣就之後再沿用今天討論的原則然後再去做其他法案的修訂這樣的話我覺得對於整個推進是有效的而且"},{"start":12235.018,"end":12256.881,"text":"事實上陳委員的提案是針對了包括散播謠言誓死然後去影響農產品價格的這件事情我們可以知道現在這種網路的時代他一些風吹草動就確實會影響農產品價格那影響農產品價格又實際就是傷害到了農民本身所以這件事情是很嚴重的那以現在的法則來看"},{"start":12258.142,"end":12276.939,"text":"六萬元以上那三十萬元以下看起來這個法是很輕的這個法輕是幾乎這個遏止力這個不高那第二就是說如果是有心人刻意為之而且是在背後想要謀取一些不正當利益的時候對他來說縱使罰到"},{"start":12278.593,"end":12297.258,"text":"三十萬他完全不敢不敢所以我現在是想請教說好那我們在這個集聚的範圍那我想問說當然這種假訊息去影響交易他有輕重之別那如果在比較輕的時候你們覺得合理的"},{"start":12298.218,"end":12324.329,"text":"法則是在多少?我們先了解這個輕度的時候合理的價格現在6萬你們認為合理嗎?還是這個6萬你們要提高到10萬?那這樣如果用10倍的話我們才有辦法抓出它的上限就是最嚴重的一個狀況那我想這部分是不是請大概請部長一起說明好不好來 曾英才委員這個剛才法務部的說明"},{"start":12325.459,"end":12341.404,"text":"這個已經很清楚了那這個確實是從30萬提高到3000萬然後這麼大的差距就由這個主管機關尤其是地方要去採訪的時候"},{"start":12343.709,"end":12363.378,"text":"這都是一個會產生的一個需要去考量的部分那另外就是說這個因為這邊主要的理由就是因為網路時代和各不一樣所以除了農業部,農業部也有其他相關的法例"},{"start":12364.326,"end":12369.909,"text":"８立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．"},{"start":12385.084,"end":12405.808,"text":"這個要請法務部跟要早一點跟農業部來去商討然後就不要就不要讓那個農業部在報告裡面說這個尊重本部表尊重大案的決定主管機關還是要有一些表達意見會比較適當尤其是涉及到這種這麼大的一個法"},{"start":12412.894,"end":12414.056,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12426.127,"end":12426.467,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":12456.167,"end":12470.963,"text":"以及整個過程我個人認為在定定法則的時候我們定一個法的目的就是要真正能夠幫助社會大眾而且定一個法的目的就是要讓這個執行者他可以執行"},{"start":12472.104,"end":12496.18,"text":"所以我也非常希望聽法務部以及農業部所提出的論點也就是在整個比例原則方面怎麼樣才是一個持恆顧全三營的這個方向第二個也就是特別在農業部的部分因為現在日新月異千變萬化那農業部你在執行的過程當中你要如何"},{"start":12496.92,"end":12497.12,"text":"法務部及農業部"},{"start":12523.598,"end":12529.112,"text":"那我是不是先請農業部說明一下好不好你們應該也思考過啦怎麼樣的一個數字可能是一個比較適合的"},{"start":12531.055,"end":12553.12,"text":"謝謝委員那剛才包括楊全英委員還有那個那個蔡議員跟政電台委員還有其他委員我覺得基本上農業部本身希望那個底線那個那樓地板是6萬因為他有一些是前衛比較輕的如果把他提到30萬剛才講30萬或300萬的時候那一下子就變得非常重"},{"start":12553.8,"end":12562.572,"text":"所以我們是建議說維持6萬然後因為這裡面有兩個項目第一個項目是可以提到"},{"start":12564.915,"end":12589.133,"text":"沒有,那底線沒變啦我現在說天花板的部分可以用10倍因為過去我們大概都是用5倍的概念去算嘛所以6萬變30萬我們可以變成6萬變成60萬用這樣的方式然後第二項的部分就是有關於那個違反那個運銷次序的部分我們可以再拉高到50萬這樣子用這樣的方式"},{"start":12590.487,"end":12590.667,"text":"主席"},{"start":12611.365,"end":12636.34,"text":"就是說依你們來看這個違反第六條第一項第四條第一項跟違反第六條第二項這兩個之間有算你們認為是有這個等級的差別嗎還是這兩項如果嚴重起來是一樣都是很嚴重的如果沒有很大的差別的話你們應該讓他發責的上限是一致的是不是比較我們也可以把它因為這兩個基本上齁"},{"start":12638.387,"end":12639.108,"text":"不過我們跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12663.379,"end":12665.06,"text":"我覺得如果說部長你剛才講的就是"},{"start":12688.477,"end":12708.247,"text":"這個第一項跟第二項你把它挪成一致我個人也不太贊成因為你壟斷跟我們小偷一個人去偷跟這個集團去偷金額雖然一樣但是他的行為不一樣他的行為是天差地也"},{"start":12709.287,"end":12718.732,"text":"所以你們應該要好好相識去討論你聯合壟斷這當然是很嚴重的事情啊對不對你可以聯合壟斷或沒有聯合壟斷一樣出問這樣便宜形式我不贊成我們原來是6萬到60萬然後第二個就是謠言的部分是6萬到50萬"},{"start":12736.377,"end":12755.448,"text":"那你剛剛怎麼說你可以一致沒有啊你那個行為完全不一樣怎麼可能會這樣子我剛才有解釋這兩條的法的背後的理由是不一樣的嘛所以我們有分六萬到六十六萬到五十啊用這樣的分那我是回應剛才其他的委員說是不是一致性我說如果委員討論一致性的話我們也可以解釋"},{"start":12756.412,"end":12779.485,"text":"立法還是要有所本不是話趴拉欠你給人家罰這樣你什麼理由啊以前我們的稅法以前是以前還沒有國稅局稅券住合我給你罰多少你就罰多少是民眾你只好舉證現在不是現在國稅局你要給我罰多少你要舉證給我你要有所本你不要再便宜行事因為一個法定下去"},{"start":12780.745,"end":12795.53,"text":"這個對整個會很大的一個影響而且最重要是你在後面現在趙偉這個主席說的就是你在執行你怎麼支援得來比較重要那這個之後都抓不到的領額對不對"},{"start":12797.805,"end":12822.455,"text":"各位因為這個涉及到法的一些恆明性的問題啦那已經急劇過大確實好像這個法律上也並不是那麼恰當那剛剛大概能業部有提出他們的一些建議剛剛法務部也提出那他們提到是六萬到六十萬那第二項的部分是六萬到五十啦五到五十各位這部分大家同意採用他們的處理方式嗎"},{"start":12823.567,"end":12851.943,"text":"我還是要回答一下因為剛才趙委也提到說壟斷這種惡意操控這是惡性非常大的可是我們現在我當然知道說執行面是沒有辦法判到沒有辦法真的真正的給他做出這種罰款這種懲罰可是這跟我們罪行的這個這個罪行的這個深遠度是沒有還是一樣啊你六萬到六十萬來去懲罰一個壟斷或惡意操控價值的會不會太輕了吧"},{"start":12852.443,"end":12868.501,"text":"那當然還有散播這些農業交易性格、交易價格這些價格直接影響到的是非常大的那我們還是用6萬到60萬這個實在是我還是覺得這個上限是不是可以再調整一下不然這跟任何沒有嚇阻的意義在那要不要讓農業部先說明一下好不好"},{"start":12871.513,"end":12877.195,"text":"陳冠廷等30年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．完整會議"},{"start":12901.323,"end":12908.624,"text":"你應該是去把你稱之去把它都列表出來那應該是如何可以達到"},{"start":12910.015,"end":12936.434,"text":"這一個二指作用也可以達到你們要執行可以執行的到所以我是充分建議委員會就是大家因為這個金額還有意見所以我也同意就送出去然後協商趁著這個協商期的時間好好去討論出來因為我覺得我們立法不能只有一條法你一條法你沒有跟其他的法那整個會全部亂掉這是本席的建議"},{"start":12937.776,"end":12949.891,"text":"好 是不是介意就這樣我們先參採就是農業部的意見那我們初委員會在協商的時候再來溝通好不好另外其他的相關法也要一併調整因為這個法很平行一併處理好不好"},{"start":12950.629,"end":12951.169,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12980.849,"end":13006.732,"text":"再協商就好了?對不對?對 楊委員不過今天出去是一定要有一個版本如果你要出委員會的話委員會要一個那個那你現在是要照陳委員的版本過嗎?先照陳委員的版本過那各位人呢 有沒有意見?那我們就照陳委員的版本出委員會好不好再協商再來做處理可以嗎?這個版本出去以後農業部就不能再表達立場啦是可以嗎?"},{"start":13011.561,"end":13035.976,"text":"我們就保留協商啦先出文會再保留協商嘛好不好那我們就把這一條保留到草野協商好不好我們就這一條保留到草野協商好不好我想農業部應該要盤整這個所有的法律有涉及到就大概有共識要提高罰則增加賀主力啦至於多少額度的部分我們在草野協商再來做處理好不好"},{"start":13037.535,"end":13063.6,"text":"好,那我們的討論事項所列的《農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案》我們就審計完畢你具審查報告提報院會討論那需要交由黨團來協商那院會討論時就由邱毅英、邱昭偉來做說明好,那我們通過條文相關法制用語授權主席跟議事員成立那本日議程處理完畢,散會謝謝大家辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15888","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d35675eb71f9bc6ae8bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be4d59d00fecb541aa15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-08","start_time":"2024-05-08T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:41:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15046,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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本議程採綜合詢答．由委員萬美琳等21人提出質詢．促進教育部部長潘文忠及相關人員即席答覆說明．另由委員黃珊珊等2人提出書面質詢．決議一報告及詢答完畢．二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀律並刊登公報．三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．請相關機關介述以書面答覆．四偏遠地區學校教育發展條例相關修正草案．面對其繼續審查．通過臨時提"},{"start":1946.834,"end":1966.538,"text":"好,由於這個在場委員不夠一決,人數三人,所以我們意識度占不確定那今天的議程是邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討．來進行專案總報告．並備質詢那我們首先來介紹在場委員,萬美玲委員"},{"start":1978.423,"end":1989.571,"text":"介紹與會的官員我們國立故宮博物院蕭宗煌院長還有我們黃永泰副院長余佩錦副院長現在我們就請我們蕭院長進行報告報告時間12分鐘"},{"start":2004.967,"end":2024.584,"text":"主席 您召委 各位委員先進 大家好首先請就大院教育及文化委員會令人對本院的施政跟預算的支持與指正表達最誠摯的謝意以下請就國立故宮博物院回首百年放眼未來故宮定位與部會級博物館社會責任總檢討進行專案報告"},{"start":2029.761,"end":2049.568,"text":"全員．故宮成立嚴格及定位．本院於民國十四年十月十一於大陸北京正式成立．三十七年故宮文物必營中央博物院籌備處．中央研究院實驗所．中央圖書館北平圖書館等各機關．至文物來到臺灣．五十四年國立故宮博物院新館在臺北外雙溪開館"},{"start":2051.169,"end":2069.332,"text":"以行政院組織法第8條及國立故宮博物院組織法規定本院為行政院狹屬部會同級中央二級之博物館設立宗旨為整理保管展出所藏之歷代古文物及藝術品並加強對文物藝術品保存徵集研究殘養等使命"},{"start":2070.533,"end":2094.132,"text":"本院依行政院人事總署建議進行最適組織形態委託研究計畫以110年就業完成研究．並提供人事總署作為政策參考．建議本院組織形態設．行政院組織改造整體規劃．未來如有組織調整．會廣納各界意見．尋求社會更多共識．在確保專業與公共性下作為決策參考．"},{"start":2095.773,"end":2119.012,"text":"2、博物館社會責任,近年來博物館面對社會處境的轉變無法置外於社會文化脈絡當博物館身處社會文化或自然等嚴峻情境時需以全新視野反思作為公共性與社會性的責任在博物館協會ICOM2022年提出新的博物館定義我想這個就請裁作大家參考"},{"start":2120.606,"end":2135.892,"text":"為回應2022博物館新定義本院與專業服務開放多元﹐友善共榮﹐永續發展為施政目標向公眾提供教育、社群參與及知識共享之多元﹐體驗﹐強化本院與當代博物館社會責任之連結"},{"start":2137.453,"end":2164.832,"text":"在故宮博物院回應當代社會責任具體成果方面一、優化文物保存、修復能量本院近70萬件典藏品、混合器物、書畫、圖書文獻三大類恆晃新時期至今8000年質量經濟的精緻收藏使本院素有華夏文物保固之稱保存、修復典藏文物為本院組織法所受最重要的公共責任"},{"start":2166.637,"end":2186.193,"text":"我們設立全國博物館唯一獨立文物保存修復部門其中包含書畫、古籍檔案、器物及織品四種類型的修復室以及文物科學檢測實驗室協助現場文物的一方性保存修復、工藝史研究、文物徵集等工作"},{"start":2187.054,"end":2206.579,"text":"在培養修復人才．持續辦理國內外技術交流．透過新故宮計畫提升文物保存．修復及科學分析的相關的空間與設備．在培育人才109-110本院持續接受各類．文物修復實習申請．或至本院與國家未來專業人力儲備"},{"start":2209.381,"end":2223.016,"text":"充實數位典藏與數位應用本院99年開始導入意願化數的拍攝工作3D掃描那對典藏進行高解析的數位化工作也進行"},{"start":2223.857,"end":2235.755,"text":"Metadata資料描述將相關影像及描述資料作為一個整合建置資料庫﹐開放公眾業覽﹐積極產製文物衍生3D建模﹐數位IP或互動裝置等數位資產"},{"start":2240.495,"end":2267.633,"text":"那在106年的話故宮開始將文物圖像導入CC創用作為一個國際範例然後開放各界使用那在政府開放資料架構下以前面開放中階及低階圖檔中階的話是600萬畫素然後低階150萬畫素然後各40萬張在open data專期免費下載不限用途包括商業使用都可以"},{"start":2270.097,"end":2285.728,"text":"提升研究量能發展學術專業本院70年發行的故宮學術紀刊為文學歷史藝術領域的研究的重要期刊經評比為歷史邪門的核心期刊今年也榮後國家圖書館頒發精進期刊傳播獎"},{"start":2291.606,"end":2319.594,"text":"本院持續以國外研究單位及展覽館簽署合作備忘文目前簽署由美國胡漢基金會﹐香港城市大學﹐法國遠東學院﹐法國蓋布朗利博物館﹐法國巴黎中世藝術博物館﹐德國海德堡大學﹐跨文化研究中心及蒙古學術院等所要以推動國際合作研究﹐例如112人參與英國研究院講座研究計畫﹐全球召集計畫﹐中國全球知識等"},{"start":2321.215,"end":2334.906,"text":"是跨域文化疆界引起觀眾共鳴本院典藏文物作為國家核心文化資產是國際建基於爭取合作交流對象藉由戶外辦理指標性的國際展拓展各類國際交流強化與國際博物館進行多元"},{"start":2338.103,"end":2360.143,"text":"的交流：帶動臺灣博物館群的策展能力．厚實我國文化外交影響力．及展現臺灣文化展實力．在國際交流方面的話．國際介展113年就是要推出．大美不言國立故宮博物院．與巴黎中世藝術博物館及幻科雅堡的典藏精粹展．南院會辦理萬國金娘東亞海上的琉球特展．"},{"start":2361.084,"end":2384.074,"text":"另外我國出國辦理的展覽114年明年9月會在捷克布拉谷國家博物館推出故宮文物百選及故事特展是院長文物首次在捷克展出,包含多寶閣清明山河圖等文物另外明年11月會在法國凱布朗利博物館辦理龍的特展"},{"start":2385.134,"end":2412.151,"text":"另外聯結地方廣所共享文化資源109 111年於彰化縣立美術館即辦故宮國寶由彰化故宮文物成以新媒體藝術展112年至113年以台南市美術館即辦千載藍紅故宮國寶抵台南特展展出故宮翠玉白菜等人氣國寶﹐搭配驗本清明上河圖長卷動畫等數位作品"},{"start":2414.411,"end":2439.806,"text":"在新媒體藝術部分,我們也把他送到國內外,包括103年前東草新媒體藝術展到法國巴黎展出,104年在意大利佛羅倫斯十字教堂舉辦意義漫遊新媒體藝術展,108年於泰國曼谷合成藝術中心辦理清明山河圖數位展,112年於東京九七年辦理台灣形象展"},{"start":2442.593,"end":2456.344,"text":"5.本院在長期推動文化平權﹐友善共榮﹐秉持博物館教育理念﹐促進文化資源的可敬性﹐提供各族群享有文化潛質﹐擴大參與的管道﹐並以學習者為中心規劃多元教育推廣活動"},{"start":2457.765,"end":2480.029,"text":"以偏鄉為例,偏鄉教育串聯管計合作,108年策辦故宮友誼市協子海灣參訪北部院區,南院辦理百萬遊子幼幼博物館的專案計畫,邀請全國高中職以下偏鄉及離島學生參訪本院南北院區,藉由前額保險安排交通、車輛、住宿,提供專人保險活動。"},{"start":2482.99,"end":2501.349,"text":"那這個活動的話,其實我們也集結社會的資源,譬如說我們找到那個臺北市龍山市,名甲龍山市跟那個股票博物館,就集保中心,結保結算所,共同攜手攜手的話,就是他贊助我們的經會,然後我們來邀請這些學生到故宮來"},{"start":2504.242,"end":2519.513,"text":"104年其執行開發Steam創新教案．以創擴模範列車、行軌各縣市、左右偏鄉及教育優先區、界階各縣市教育體系、擴大故宮資源受眾,建置數位藝術教育支援平台,導入藝術教育現場。"},{"start":2522.255,"end":2543.208,"text":"各別化信心障礙需求．依障礙者特質及需求規劃．服務活動專案．聽、聾、共賞．所謂導覽活動．採取聾人、聽障者與聽人．共同參與的形式．由本院導覽志工與專業．所謂歡迎演．搭配解說保障聾人文化的禁用權．回應高齡化"},{"start":2545.769,"end":2571.136,"text":"全球高齡化2025的話臺灣也要邁入高齡化的一個社會本願與臺北榮總跨域合作為國內首創一個博物館與國家級醫療中心深度合作以故宮典藏結合醫療開發金牌人生認知牌卡以非藥物介入活動助動失智者的照顧因為透過懷舊情感跟生命對話"},{"start":2572.558,"end":2576.237,"text":"促使長者認知的功能增進人際的互動"},{"start":2577.43,"end":2604.587,"text":"另外在招募志工部分故宮提供免費導覽志工是故宮典藏最豐沛的博物館志工人數及規模可觀藍白院都有志工隊除了培訓成人志工外亦持續培小志工、高中志工、大專志工及校園大使鼓勵年輕世代透過志願服務參與博物館"},{"start":2605.647,"end":2625.643,"text":"另外在故宮．因為形塑故宮品牌價值本院擁有世界級文物的藝術典藏是國際品牌廠商開發奉配的資源全球國際化的品牌有合作的既有Nine Friends、Sloombee、Disney還有Coco力克雄"},{"start":2626.804,"end":2648.316,"text":"另外要彰顯臺灣精神支持臺灣本土產業本院與國內相關單位聯手打造臺灣精品MIT專欄比如說與經濟部中小企業BIPOWER然後另外的話故宮臺灣好漁另外與宜蘭縣文化局合作宜蘭靜候專欄另外的話跟那個"},{"start":2651.277,"end":2674.526,"text":"龍業部 延伸臺灣亮點茶莊的合作計畫．目前有14家納入本院品牌授權的一個機制．最後本院將故宮珍貴文物定位為．人類所共享的歷史文化瑰寶．本院公共化的作為．從典藏研究展覽教育公共服務等過程．經為促進社會各界參與拉近本院與社群的溝通與連結．"},{"start":2676.187,"end":2680.374,"text":"近年經歷新冠疫情的挑戰本院努力重建與國內外觀眾連結之際"},{"start":2685.718,"end":2710.758,"text":"實際紋路為立基點．後時保存修復及研究能量．強化展覽交流．以多角度經營品牌為新象．以無疆界的文化轉實力立足於全球．讓國立故宮博物院品牌．不只是台灣的故宮．亞洲的故宮．更成為世界的故宮以上的報告．敬請各位委員給予執政．並盼委員繼續給予支持謝謝大家"},{"start":2714.807,"end":2724.684,"text":"好 謝謝蕭院長的口頭報告那我們來介紹我們到場的立法委員我們柯智恩召委"},{"start":2727.844,"end":2744.342,"text":"好 所以我們現在已達三人了我們來確定議事錄那上次的會議議事錄有錯誤跟遺漏之處好 沒有 那我們議事錄確定那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員只需6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":2745.723,"end":2769.142,"text":"列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘．發言登記截止時間為10點30分．委員若臨時停案也請於上午10點30分前提出．並與本會委員．范雲委員質詢．結束後我們來立即處理．處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．與人力不予處理．首先我們請發言登記第一位萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":2776.475,"end":2776.635,"text":"蕭宗煌議員"},{"start":2802.872,"end":2823.881,"text":"好 院長早我想院長故宮兩年前才發生了其實大家都很心痛的就是文物毀損的一個事件那之後呢還有這個高階土壤外流等等這個就是可以說舉國觀星那當然你們也被監察院舉報而且本席看了一下根據監察院的網站顯示這個糾舉就是你被監察院糾舉糾正的這件事情到現在還沒有結案 對不對"},{"start":2832.158,"end":2848.703,"text":"基本上來講的話我們已經把報告送給監察院跟行政院所以他是一個結案狀態但是有一些後續的我們要持續改進的部分還是後續總是我們看到在這個糾結案文上面看到就是還沒有結案的狀態那"},{"start":2851.525,"end":2869.394,"text":"前面兩個這麼大的一個書師還在大家記憶遊行而昨天呢又被我們委員這個同仁來踢爆那也就是在故宮本院去年初屆國保我們的翠玉白菜給南美館點交的時候呢直接在翠玉白菜旁邊3公分的地方來簽署文件"},{"start":2870.334,"end":2877.001,"text":"這是非常的讓我們國保完全暴露在高危險的狀態之下這個動作這個狀況這個事件就非常離譜了但是呢比較離譜的是啊貴處的處長說這個文物是算在相對的安全保護下而且說這是一個小疏失那請問一下院長這個狀況是相對的安全而且是一個小疏失嗎"},{"start":2892.495,"end":2920.529,"text":"請您回覆一下跟委員報告一下如果委員仔細看這個照片的話基本上來講正面的玻璃是卸下了可是另外的三面玻璃都還存在那大家沒有錯就是說因為大家對於這一件紋路院長你只要回覆我啦就是現在你的吳處長說這個是相對安全跟小舒適你認同他的說法嗎還是你有糾正他的說法在博物館的一個標準作用來講院長你只要回覆本席你認同他的說法嗎"},{"start":2922.165,"end":2935.829,"text":"因為文路的話基本上是安全無虞的它當然就是是一個行政上的一個標準作業流程的事務好 院長本席對你現在回覆的態度跟說法非常非常的失望我們看到這張照片"},{"start":2939.15,"end":2964.893,"text":"你硬要講說什麼還是在玻璃框內等等我想本席郵寄在前年的時候文物打破的時候那個影帶我們大家有看到當時同仁們其實也是戰戰兢兢的在桌面上來做那些文物的一個收藏跟整理的動作但是一個不慎那個紙箱子就打開了所以就掉下來了他來不及接另外一個文物所以保住了另外一個打碎了"},{"start":2965.954,"end":2966.514,"text":"所以院長 這個算小疏失嗎?"},{"start":2996.157,"end":3002.631,"text":"我想這個在博物館來講的話那個專業素養基本上來講還要再訓練啦因為這樣的話凸顯那個博物館的專業素養是不夠的"},{"start":3006.325,"end":3029.762,"text":"院長,我想故宮的同仁一定也是視故宮的國寶為珍寶但是心態上非常的重要如果我們常常出現一些疏失也就已經非常嚴重了但心態上都還認為這個沒有什麼這個都是一個小疏失那這個就非常可怕了所以我們看到故宮南院我們也知道之前在施工之後做清潔工作"},{"start":3030.202,"end":3056.248,"text":"那甚至於這種外包廠商的青年人員都可以很自意的就進入到這個男院裡面來那將來萬一有國寶這個遺失的時候那又要算誰的 才要出來道歉嗎好 再來呢 根據昨天晚上那我們跟這個故宮啊 了解一下你怎麼回答我的 你說過去故宮規定散落在這個各個不同的作業規範裡面的規範太多了所以同仁啊 摸不著頭緒 無所適從啊是不是 處長這樣回答嘛 對不對"},{"start":3061.137,"end":3084.846,"text":"處長這樣回答嘛我覺得處長您的這個心態上跟觀點上很奇怪先是說我們現在我們這個做法是一個小書師那接下來又說因為故宮的這個SOP散落在很多不同的作業規範裡面所以規範太多了同仁摸不著頭緒我跟你講這種回答很誇張啦我想故宮在台副院展出都快要一甲子了你現在才把SOP材料做出來院長這合理嗎"},{"start":3087.127,"end":3088.387,"text":"院長我想喔"},{"start":3105.613,"end":3133.044,"text":"你要儘速啦儘速好好整頓一下那再來我想這一次我們擔憂的這個翠玉白菜那你看這其實是一個危險的狀態我們要知道我們現在是不是明年我們的國寶要去捷克展出以及法國巴黎來展出那其中最重要的大概就是這個翠玉白菜這個舉世聞名那如果我們因為這個疏失翠玉白菜有所散失了你想想看我們前置的作業是不是全部大家都白浪費力氣了"},{"start":3134.144,"end":3160.937,"text":"那院長我請教一下喔我們上一次說我們要到捷克去展出大概是明年9月明年的事情嘛大概是不是有確定嗎?大概9月份那我們有一個司法免扣押的一個修法案在今年2月8號眾議院一讀之後現在在參議院那參議院審查通過了嗎?10月份已經通過了10月份已經通過了好那這樣顯然明年我們的這個國保出訪到捷克這件事情就已經是定案了嘛對很好"},{"start":3161.237,"end":3161.377,"text":"現在進度如何?"},{"start":3179.444,"end":3179.945,"text":"文化部審議過了嗎?"},{"start":3193.423,"end":3194.104,"text":"文化部還沒有"},{"start":3223.283,"end":3232.332,"text":"行政院有在為故宮降級做準備所以故宮的院長遲遲到現在沒有宣布這第一個第二個我想請教一下那有徵詢過這個院長的意願了嗎沒有正式徵詢過沒有被正式徵詢過那如果徵詢了您會留下來嗎"},{"start":3242.554,"end":3254.229,"text":"我覺得一年來的話我對故宮裡面的問題真的是有用心去了解那如果是說我可以再跟故宮同仁一起打拼的話我個人有這樣的意願"},{"start":3255.017,"end":3274.941,"text":"很好 我覺得勇於這個去繼續承擔的這麼重要的職務是很棒的所以我們當然也希望剩下520不到兩個禮拜的時間現在談交接恐怕這個千頭萬緒也不可能交接那我們也希望你能夠繼續留任不過留任就面臨一個事情您有提到在剛上任的時候您也是反對故宮改立成為文化不變三級機關的您現在還是這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":3283.366,"end":3301.093,"text":"以目前來講故宮進行新故宮計畫還要改相違規進行展品的盤點以目前來講過於激烈的組織改造對故宮是不利的所以您還是反對嗎這是行政院的前者"},{"start":3302.174,"end":3318.195,"text":"好,但是您的態度之前有講說這不是好的選項我想我非常贊同您的看法因為我們知道故宮如果降級為三級機關或者獨立的行政法人最直接影響到就是預算跟原額那我們來看到您的原額的部分現在我們的預算原額是488人"},{"start":3319.777,"end":3342.277,"text":"目前按照您給我的資訊上看來還缺額有大概48個人你要知道如果今天我們降級為三級機關了那你整個員額就要在文化部底下共用那個總額到時候如果你要增加人恐怕就難上加難了那如果沒有辦法再增加人我們看到的是現在故宮限制的文物修復室就只有16人要負責70萬件的文物這樣的人是夠的嗎?"},{"start":3347.582,"end":3367.922,"text":"當然不夠啦可是委員也知道就在總言而法的限制裡面的話對故宮人力來講的話是沒有辦法再增加但是目前的切額的話是因為就是因為那個改組控管然後另外的話有一些切額的話因為要考試分發所以有這樣的一個切額但是在之後的話我想他會慢慢補齊"},{"start":3369.326,"end":3371.547,"text":"謝謝委員我們會藉性恐懼引以為戒然後慢慢慢慢把所有的切口都補起來"},{"start":3399.606,"end":3399.766,"text":"蕭院長蕭院長"},{"start":3423.755,"end":3433.73,"text":"蕭院長早剛剛萬位委員也特別問到了關於我們新內閣的新生訓練是沒有看到你的蹤影你剛剛回覆說沒有被正式來徵詢私下有徵詢嗎?"},{"start":3439.873,"end":3453.047,"text":"私下耳語很多所以基本上應該留任的機率是蠻高的啦我現在是覺得說你常常是真的故宮被我們的卓院長跟我們的賴總統給忘掉了但是我們都不會忘掉故宮故宮是我們的最愛也是很多國人的最愛"},{"start":3453.607,"end":3454.067,"text":"所以發現你們那兩個才是最大的破口"},{"start":3477.08,"end":3477.22,"text":"院長有沒有可能?"},{"start":3497.239,"end":3500.964,"text":"我告訴你啦你這種方式就是完全不對的一定是有人看不下"},{"start":3512.139,"end":3512.659,"text":"這不是演進的問題 不是演進的問題"},{"start":3534.033,"end":3534.153,"text":"蔡英文議員"},{"start":3554.006,"end":3562.914,"text":"因為它是一個益職的文物所以它的耐厚性比較強一點但是你有沒有做好一個像是保險還有你有沒有限制它出館的這個次數然後它多久出宮之後還要回宮啊你有沒有發現你看這個做完之後3月10號在台南美術館然後呢你在故宮還要回宮只有幾個月的時間所以這個部分來說的話你們有沒有一套最完整的一個做法"},{"start":3579.508,"end":3579.608,"text":"蔡英文議員"},{"start":3609.628,"end":3625.249,"text":"委員長的確可是因為在我到任之前的話他已經形成一個慣例就是故宮的翠白菜的話他南北宴要輪流出差因為肉行時在台北的話白菜就要輪流出差所以我說他很忙"},{"start":3625.709,"end":3626.469,"text":"因為故宮有一個現場輪入的規定當然最主要是書畫類的部分"},{"start":3652.594,"end":3653.114,"text":"因為故宮南院也是故宮所以我們不能講說故宮"},{"start":3682.361,"end":3682.661,"text":"國際局勢山洞庫房"},{"start":3701.845,"end":3728.017,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是因為現在我們在進行北宴的一個行政大樓的一個建置工作未來的話跟展品維護跟展覽無關的同仁會移到山下所以移到山下之後山洞庫房的東西就會進到研究大樓的地下室好沒關係你的最後一頁因為時間實在太短了最後一頁你竟然說為了做未來要做戰備物資儲存的準備"},{"start":3730.905,"end":3747.351,"text":"你說地緣政治的關係戰備物資儲存請問到戰備物資是你提出來還是國安單位特別提出來的不是同仁的話他誤解用意就是說因為我們還是要準備原來的鐵箱還是要放在裡面如果說有地緣政治危險的時候那個鐵箱還是要趕快到"},{"start":3749.392,"end":3753.273,"text":"所以你這個戰備物資並不是要儲存戰備的一些部分那你這邊寫戰備物資嚇死人但是我還是要請問一下為什麼會做這樣的一個聯想因為在這個我們2022年的時候惡霧戰爭爆發吳密查前院長曾經跟BBC特別提到了這是我們成立第一次戰爭應變的演練而且你諮詢了國安軍方跟警察單位請問有這樣的一回事對不對"},{"start":3776.521,"end":3791.47,"text":"對跟委員報告因為故宮被列為重要的國土的一個相關設施所以基本上來講國土辦列管的單位所以我們每年都要做演練好那你對你們剛吳前院長非常擔心戰爭對故宮的設備的一個破壞還有被敵軍搶奪他非常擔心所以你們不管在煽動各方面的防震技術做好的準備那我請問真的要是發生的話請問下一步會是什麼"},{"start":3802.156,"end":3817.234,"text":"你的寶物是放在就地放置呢?還是放到美國日本還是哪裡呢?不可能齁,沒有比故宮目前台灣沒有比故宮更安全的地方所以你完全就像馮明珠前院長說的故宮文物最安全的地方就在故宮本地"},{"start":3817.614,"end":3835.189,"text":"因為故宮基本上來講文物都在地下半地下或是山洞裡面所以相對國內其他的博物館的話我們是最安全的而且故宮當初的選擇那個地方的地形、地貌來講的話它就是有一些黃空上面的一個考量"},{"start":3835.589,"end":3856.845,"text":"所以對我個人來說文物的保存最重要你說在我們的這個山洞庫房當中如果它的防震係數跟山下的部分來說的話誰比較高山洞的防護係數跟因為你相信很多地方你的地震頻繁嘛你要由鄉轉貴嘛對不對所以對我個人來說文物的地方是哪個地方防震係數最高就哪個地方是最安全的這你同意吧"},{"start":3857.065,"end":3862.889,"text":"我只要百分之百確定你說的戰備物資儲存這個絕對不是你們如字面上所說因為你又開始提到地緣政治又提到戰爭絕對不是放鞭炮放什麼東西戰備物資不是鞭炮好不好就已經不是鞭炮等級了院長我知道啦我形容啦我形容"},{"start":3883.345,"end":3885.066,"text":"我們的鐵箱包裝器材維護工具是這樣的意思因為鐵箱文錄簽出來的話鐵箱還是要有一個地方放"},{"start":3902.725,"end":3927.486,"text":"所以說措辭請清楚一點我剛剛看助理拿回來今天把我活活的嚇死了好不好還有就是最後一個我還是要問到包括你的人力就是這個史博館裡面我們往後面史博館因為他的玻璃販賣店擋住紅牆所以讓很多人很多批評故宮現在你要加蓋玻璃我擋上黃牆之前已經被臺北市的文資局否決了如果這次再被否決院長你要不要負責"},{"start":3929.018,"end":3945.72,"text":"基本上來講的話有四家廠商一家的話做了玻璃入口然後他竊屏重險得標了所以他報了第一次文資局不同意但是他可以再修訂修訂以後再送文資局文資局如果不同意的話我們要他變更計畫"},{"start":3946.621,"end":3947.101,"text":"這是南美館 這個不是故宮未來這是南美館"},{"start":3976.331,"end":4005.07,"text":"我知道了所以我現在告訴你原來要做個故宮的這個部分裡面我只從南美館來告訴你要做個玻璃圍牆南美館已經告訴你打著傘戴著太陽眼鏡在喝下午茶因為做Ryde好不好你現在從頭到尾都要用玻璃的圍幕會不會發生同樣的狀況在所謂的這個氣候變遷的狀況之下全部用玻璃你的冷氣要開到多大才有辦法我當然知道它是南美館就是以它的例子告訴你故宮在這樣一個文化修復當中你要破壞"},{"start":4005.871,"end":4018.658,"text":"好,我不要說破壞,你要必須要把它做一些更好的一個處理可是你現在非常的堅持要用玻璃帷幕的方法這是有很多的人是非常有意見的請好好的慎重我今天時間的關係我還是要請著院長你要慎重對於我們的故宮的保存要免嚴肅的面帶文化界每個人都在看可不可以"},{"start":4029.224,"end":4037.912,"text":"我還是對玻璃帷幕非常的有意見因為你若在同樣的地方他是遮住了整個非常大的一個方向不是只有我不要以國使館錯誤的一個經驗請不要讓他自己的經驗又重新發生在我們的故宮這才是我們國家的寶物好不好"},{"start":4055.146,"end":4056.747,"text":"我想我們會以社會最大的共識來講"},{"start":4087.005,"end":4087.566,"text":"主席蕭委員"},{"start":4105.444,"end":4126.124,"text":"陳委員早在開始質詢之前我想所有人都會關心關於這個翠玉白菜最近的新聞但是我們就問因為在相關的新聞稿故宮的回應是說會制定相關SOP那我們就要問這一次因為翠玉白菜所以你們發現有相關SOP不夠但是你們目前內部盤點還有沒有其他SOP是不足的"},{"start":4127.308,"end":4146.719,"text":"跟委員報告,我說我一年來的話把所有的相關的作業規則然後行政命令通通翻出來然後做一個總盤點所以這個部分的話我想我們在年底的話會有一個故宮的法令會編跟那個文物安全的作業手冊會出版"},{"start":4147.119,"end":4163.038,"text":"那在這年底之前呢還會有陸續其他的展覽不是嗎基本上來講的話SOP的部分我們可以修的都修了這次修的話就是修說因為散落在各個地方我們把它放在一個通則"},{"start":4164.139,"end":4167.42,"text":"每次只要談到故宮我們想要先問故宮到底國際定位在哪裡我想院長你自己也不否認故宮其實是非常重要的亞洲博物館"},{"start":4190.026,"end":4199.649,"text":"而且他明明其實有面對國際觀光客的這些資源在身上我們來看在2015年藝術界的權威媒體故宮的評比當時的參觀人次來到500多萬是當時的世界排名全球第六還是當時的亞洲第一可是我們回過來看到現在2023年"},{"start":4211.972,"end":4215.633,"text":"故宮人次規模在2023年去年來到只剩下100多萬相較我剛剛說的2015年故宮整個衰退到只剩三分之一那如果"},{"start":4230.538,"end":4254.566,"text":"院長你要告訴我是因為疫情那我就先直接告訴你故宮最常常喜歡拿羅浮宮來做學習的對象羅浮宮在2015年也就是我剛剛說故宮第6名的時候當時他是第一名800多萬人次到2023年也就是疫情過後他們依然維持在800多萬人次我想問院長明年就是百年大展了故宮如何面對自己的國際定位這件事情"},{"start":4256.99,"end":4281.486,"text":"的確因為故宮最慘的時候摔到一年的話41萬人那去年的話是155萬那今年的話我們目標的話是255萬明年的話我們希望說可以回到300萬那在故宮的國際定位上來講的話故宮擁有最精彩的一個華夏文物那我們透過不同的方式國內外交流的話我們希望做一個"},{"start":4283.567,"end":4301.302,"text":"更好的一個宣傳我們都沒有否定國內外交流的重要性就是剛剛外美領委員質詢的時候有提到這個文物的交流非常重要但是文物的交流它可能是研究性居多或者是故宮怎麼定位自己的國際交流跟相關的行銷推廣跟面對所謂的國際觀光客以前很常聽到故宮還會說因為入客不來因為疫情"},{"start":4305.265,"end":4319.741,"text":"那我就問如果故宮想像的就是只有所謂的路客我們不去面對國際觀光客不去想像國際觀光客或是我們不辦相關的活動去召喚國際觀光客他怎麼可能變成有國際定位有自己想像這個國際定位的故宮"},{"start":4320.422,"end":4334.576,"text":"是 就是故宮博物院其實我上任的時候也一直思考怎麼樣提升國際文化交流的動能那當然也有貴會的委員提出說故宮要提一個故宮的國際戰略計畫其實這個跟我們原來規劃的不謀而合"},{"start":4339.921,"end":4354.412,"text":"請問國際戰略計畫目前的進度是?我們現在國際戰略目標的構想就是說已經有一個初稿那也送給吳委員那我們可能回去以後我們也送給大院的每一個委員"},{"start":4355.072,"end":4355.433,"text":"國際戰略如何牽扯到"},{"start":4374.651,"end":4374.871,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4393.428,"end":4417.264,"text":"在這個考察當中故宮直接告訴所有教育文化委員會的委員說在文物維護還有庫房管理的人力相當不足這是故宮自己提出來的那我想要問院長你上任這一年多以來你如何看待故宮目前人力的應用靠所謂的基金聘用人力或是實習生非典型的人力來運作擴編人事這件事情因為你們也即將要提出明年的預算嘛院長你自己怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":4419.058,"end":4442.664,"text":"修復的人力不足這是真的那以故宮來講的話故宮在保存這69萬件文物讓他們安全無疑然後就是做好一個維護工作比買新的展品還重要很多人問說故宮為什麼不買新的展品我沒有問你新展品啦我問你修復人力跟典藏的人力這個部分所以這個部分的話因為受限於總研委法那當然就是說未來的話"},{"start":4443.404,"end":4445.826,"text":"若是總原額法,我們有沒有機會,若他在沒有辦法擴編人力之下,是不是現在內部原額要怎麼盤點跟調整,在你們不同的處事當中做調整?現在當然16人,16人裡面的話有4位是用基金聘用,如果說我們錢賺得多的話,那依照博物館法的話,基金我們可以中天"},{"start":4467.745,"end":4468.625,"text":"請院長再次我相信立法院的委員絕對願意支持相關的人力預算"},{"start":4496.115,"end":4519.878,"text":"但我覺得故宮必須要自己面對並且提出這個相關的需求跟委員報告一下就是百年或是所謂全球文化戰略都牽涉到也許說那個人力不足是另外一個問題可是那個經會的話因為故宮來講我來了以後發現故宮的那個那個宣傳的經會是兩位數我說怎麼可能故宮的宣傳經會是兩位數呢可是他們說那以前就是這個樣子"},{"start":4521.519,"end":4540.092,"text":"所以看起來院長你也面臨很多的困境我覺得你確實是要提出來讓大家可以共同參與討論好不好我相信所有教育文化委員會絕對都會支持好最後一分鐘這個院長昨天記者會你有看到嗎你們自己發行這個我手上拿這個金牌人生對好院長你自己有玩過嗎"},{"start":4541.553,"end":4544.135,"text":"我自己手上有,但是我玩的話我年紀還沒到要玩"},{"start":4561.508,"end":4577.614,"text":"好 包含前測後測關於輕度失智輕度認知障礙的長者在語文圖像學習記憶能力都有進步而且大幅的進步這件事情我們絕對肯定故宮在這件事情上為長者們所做的努力可是你們昨天記者會說直接把這套牌卡拿出來賣我們來往下看"},{"start":4579.824,"end":4580.945,"text":"故宮如何想像自己這套產品的定位?"},{"start":4598.718,"end":4612.489,"text":"所以我剛說我幫你玩過了你知道他最大的困境是什麼院長我跟你報告齁你這本手冊裡面只有三頁是實用指引後續所有這一百多頁全部都是單張圖卡的文物說明請問他到底是藝術文學性的專業故宮典藏的專業還是醫療的專業這件事情我完全看不出來那我要說我沒有要否定你們跟榮總開發這個用在醫事工作人員上的這個對於長者的協助可是如果你直接放到商品架上來賣"},{"start":4628.981,"end":4652.513,"text":"這樣好像不大合理我想這個部分的話因為很多博物館的同業他們都希望說故宮可以給所以我們就是用換賣的方式另外博物館學習的學生他們也希望那一般的話也有家裡的媽媽他們覺得說小朋友也可以玩他們也要給小朋友所以這個部分的話當然沒有錯就是說如果把這個卡拿在一個醫療"},{"start":4655.054,"end":4655.214,"text":"館長蕭宗煌列席"},{"start":4685.094,"end":4685.594,"text":"一般版或專業版"},{"start":4703.04,"end":4727.757,"text":"因為我們跟榮總的話續約三年再簽三年可是在你的業務報告裡面其實你們沒有提到如果你要提的是專業版我剛剛說我們沒有意見而且我們相信很多的研究中心很多的認知工作方裡面一定都會覺得很好用但是我不要談其他美學的問題就是產品的定位如果你們現在都說不清楚那就麻煩因為我時間到了就再給教育文化委員會所謂的一個報告好不好所以記者會上也沒有說明清楚嗎沒有說明清楚"},{"start":4731.88,"end":4740.922,"text":"所以就拜託再把相關報告給教育及文化委員會所委員一份,謝謝好,謝謝院長,謝謝主席好,謝謝陳培鈺委員,院長請回我們接下來請葛如君委員謝謝主席,有請故宮蕭宗煌院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":4763.358,"end":4783.854,"text":"各位很早好謝謝早安我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當剛剛有很多委員都已經問了您也表達您期望留任我先給您鼓勵現在有很多這種讓大家誤解覺得故宮螺絲吊滿地有庫房管理的問題有點焦在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題"},{"start":4785.175,"end":4785.335,"text":"故宮百年願慶"},{"start":4815.616,"end":4828.85,"text":"這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身在場所有的委員都非常的重視在這裡剛剛大家都問過了我要再問一次請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定原額"},{"start":4831.429,"end":4840.877,"text":"這個部分我們還努力因為總原額法當然是有限制總原額法有限制嗎我們來看一下我們有跟行政院的這個人事總處我們替院長已經問過了人事總處表示這個原額法定預算約351人實際原額只有303人還有48個缺額為什麼說我們人力不足"},{"start":4857.951,"end":4880.448,"text":"為什麼有原額法的限制而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用啊故宮的人力到底在哪裡跟委員報告一下48個人的話就是因為依照那個行政慣例就那個改組的話人是凍結沒有補另外一部分的話就是說他要申請分化證用那"},{"start":4881.289,"end":4902.011,"text":"另外的話就是說所謂的緣額的話有預算緣額跟實際緣額如果預算緣額主計處沒有給錢的話我們有那個緣額的話基本上來講的話我們等於是一個空殼子沒關係人事總處就是表示還有緣額接下來就是管理的問題我們一起來努力好不好我想再來是庫房人力的問題我們故宮的資料"},{"start":4903.973,"end":4923.21,"text":"包含技工在內一共50人要點館70萬件的文物平均一個人要點館14000件文物以全年上班250天來講我們算過了每個人每天不吃不喝不休息每10分鐘中午還不能吃便當每10分鐘一天要來check56件文物是否安然無恙"},{"start":4924.071,"end":4934.632,"text":"庫房管理員是不是就打開看一下還在一眼就關上是這樣子嗎請確認一下現在這個典藏文物確認的狀態到底是怎麼樣時間根本不夠人力根本不足"},{"start":4935.356,"end":4961.833,"text":"依照博官法的話故宮博物院20年的話要做一個全院的總盤點所以所有的文物都要檢點過那例行性的話是每一季有像50個人的盤點院長然後那個單位主管的話會進行抽點抽點的話基本上來講的話是檢視文物那一般的盤點的話基本上來講的話是屬於秘書室的那個財產的數量數量跟公共文物不一樣"},{"start":4962.313,"end":4968.156,"text":"我們之後還要更多的交流我們已經幫你算過了告訴一下院長我們現在的盤點時間上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年總共花費了超過1000天3年7個月才把70萬件文物盤點完現在民國113年距離上次盤點12年我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限我們可能還要再花3、4年的時間來盤點嗎"},{"start":4991.189,"end":5015.296,"text":"我們在考察的時候看到就是說我們有引入新的方法啦以前的方法那這個沒辦法我們現在引入新的方法RFID的方式來管理老實說我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia 3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點"},{"start":5018.917,"end":5040.877,"text":"我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能"},{"start":5041.718,"end":5056.267,"text":"再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席"},{"start":5058.394,"end":5084.62,"text":"我依照委員意見來辦理好 謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了"},{"start":5085.68,"end":5107.07,"text":"事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以"},{"start":5108.43,"end":5120.257,"text":"博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段"},{"start":5123.058,"end":5141.806,"text":"我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁"},{"start":5143.467,"end":5145.069,"text":"剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看"},{"start":5161.784,"end":5177.851,"text":"那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長"},{"start":5179.065,"end":5193.905,"text":"能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工"},{"start":5196.508,"end":5197.109,"text":"人力的培育呢?"},{"start":5197.109,"end":5197.389,"text":"多兩位是不是?"},{"start":5217.943,"end":5229.651,"text":"人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些"},{"start":5232.973,"end":5235.274,"text":"整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間?"},{"start":5260.936,"end":5287.176,"text":"我們大家都想看文物27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點故宮北院整修之後49億元我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%"},{"start":5288.777,"end":5305.763,"text":"我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有一些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來"},{"start":5306.303,"end":5321.89,"text":"真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料"},{"start":5332.054,"end":5340.299,"text":"我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊"},{"start":5341.158,"end":5370.14,"text":"因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QR codeQR code查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?"},{"start":5371.124,"end":5373.533,"text":"副座可以嗎?因為他管工程"},{"start":5379.397,"end":5407.285,"text":"我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆"},{"start":5407.725,"end":5424.217,"text":"甚至是做一些未來的穿越時空的確認其實可以用VR跟AR來高解析度的重現巴黎聖母院的細節其實就有機會可以讓民眾用一支手機或者一個虛擬實際的頭盔就可以先預覽我們要花49億整修的"},{"start":5427.199,"end":5430,"text":"請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。"},{"start":5444.065,"end":5465.853,"text":"已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要鼓勵提拔對不對就可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠"},{"start":5468.578,"end":5470.119,"text":"那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家?"},{"start":5494.179,"end":5495.62,"text":"我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動"},{"start":5520.377,"end":5536.769,"text":"從文物保存跟修復的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎 謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教"},{"start":5547.884,"end":5548.104,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":5576.034,"end":5590.532,"text":"各位謝謝這個禮拜的一個參訪是其實很開心喔就是禮拜一的時候我們有特別到故宮去做考察那雖然我沒有翠玉白菜但是我的作品在這裡裡面有那個三顆玻璃高麗菜"},{"start":5591.993,"end":5595.075,"text":"我自己本身對於自己的作品其實也很珍藏那麼在搬運的過程其實我也經常就是不想要"},{"start":5619.265,"end":5619.425,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5639.181,"end":5655.414,"text":"關於那個南美館展覽這件事情當然就是因為總共將近13萬人然後展覽辦理得非常成功尤其那個同仁嗨分的頭忘記了標準作業程序所以這個部分的話的確是一個缺失這對專業人員的專業"},{"start":5659.978,"end":5680.779,"text":"本質的信念我覺得我們還要再加強那至於懲處的部分的話因為台南美術館他們才把那個整個結案報告送過來所以我們現在還沒有簽到我這邊所以我們會用賞華分明的方式就是說因為大家真的很辛苦然後該犯錯就犯錯我們會來做一個處理"},{"start":5682.721,"end":5709.165,"text":"對,但這樣子的一個舉動的確是對民眾觀感來講其實是非常不好的話對故宮的形象是有非常非常大的一個傷害對好,那我想關於這個故宮的百年大展其實我們就是也特別強調在明年的2025年其實是一個雙重意義的一年就是從台北建造了這個台版的故宮到現在其實我們是一甲子那再加上明年的這個百年大展的部分"},{"start":5709.565,"end":5711.246,"text":"其實故宮百年的活動是我上任以來我發現說其實過去沒有規劃所以我就開始著手規劃"},{"start":5732.5,"end":5732.64,"text":"主席"},{"start":5758.818,"end":5771.851,"text":"建築百年活動的規劃我們一起再進行從驗死的方面然後從展覽的方面從文創行銷的方面但是我剛也在這邊報告過了我們的行銷的經費少到可憐我覺得說"},{"start":5772.992,"end":5799.394,"text":"故宮過去好像就我老品牌都不用做宣傳不用雜誌廣告什麼都不用然後自己大家都會來所以這個部分的話因為他牽涉到經會如果我們要編經會的話也要主計處同意然後大院這邊也要支持所以這個部分的話那可能請故宮這邊你們也提出你們需要的一些經費或者是一些計畫其實比較具體的部分其實可以我們經會都已經算好了只是只是等著要跟主計處協調"},{"start":5801.38,"end":5827.427,"text":"當然我們希望其實在明年的時候故宮可以有一個更全新的一個風貌然後就是因為百年大展其實也是一個非常重要的一件事情那剛剛其實我要特別提到就是我們的這個數位的這個捕捉靈光的這個展覽其實也呼應到剛剛有委員特別提到他一直強調說我們是不是可以把一些文物的細節的部分用AI的方式用資訊的方式然後用"},{"start":5827.987,"end":5850.885,"text":"實際上在那個臺南的那個千載藍紅的展覽的對一個階段的那個那個數位作品的話其實他就是用AI他用AI去模擬那個幻谷的畫作賽上的畫作然後跟中國的書畫結合在一起所以我們已經開始應用"},{"start":5851.966,"end":5866.314,"text":"是 其實連我們的這個數位的這個數位展然後曾經故宮的一個數位展其實也上次我特別去看了一下那我覺得展覽就是這樣就是即使我們有7萬件的文物在故宮典藏"},{"start":5867.555,"end":5868.255,"text":"跟我們報告一下"},{"start":5895.802,"end":5920.77,"text":"故宮將近70萬件的物件的話基本上來講都已經完成數位典藏所以一般民眾的話都可以上網去查閱但是開放open data的話是40萬件所以我們會繼續努力好那當然在這個地方我們有特別講到就是前一天我特別我們有去故宮特別做了一個考察跟參訪那當然關於所謂的這個古物文物的一個修復的一個現狀"},{"start":5921.73,"end":5937.748,"text":"其實我個人看的是非常的感動啦因為其實我自己本身在做秀真藝術的其實我看了那麼多的不同的工具那麼多的細微的一個細部的部分其實匠人的精神就是在這個地方其實完全的展現這個地方一定要給故宮更多的一個支持跟鼓勵啦"},{"start":5938.508,"end":5961.485,"text":"但是就是在原額的部分在剛剛其實有很多的委員我們也特別有提到那當然這個部分可能會跟原本在這個行政院的人事行政總處這個地方他們總原額限制的一個關係所以這個部分我們要怎麼樣來來擴展這樣子的一個人力因為我想當然不是70萬件都有問題都需要修補當然不是這樣"},{"start":5962.525,"end":5983.48,"text":"必須是說我們可能在所謂的預防性的修復或者是在修復完之後的觀察維持這個其實也很重要但我相信其實16人雖然對我們的故宮來講這是滿邊的一個狀態但是其實他緣額還是不足的這個部分是不是故宮這邊有什麼樣的一個想法我們可以來做一個跟行政院這邊來做一個相對的"},{"start":5986.842,"end":6004.61,"text":"第一階段我們接下來會盤整總人力然後去把那個空間騰出來如果可以優先進補那個文物修復人才的話那因為南印大培養很多學生基本上來講的話都進不到博物館故宮願意開放這樣的一個空間然後讓更多修復人才到故宮來"},{"start":6006.11,"end":6030.098,"text":"新故宮計畫不管南院北院整理之後我們都有一個比較標準的一個修復空間然後讓修復的工作可以進行得更順暢這個預計在什麼時候會全部的完工呢?這個新故宮計畫因為我記得上一次其實有特別提到北院的圖書文獻大樓就第二展覽館包括修復室的話是在明年年底那南院的話要到117年"},{"start":6032.239,"end":6058.685,"text":"另外我還有一個小的問題就是說我們在修護的人力這16人是都集中在北院比較多還是說南院其實也有分配到目前都在北院都在北院但南院是不是在這個織品的部分他們其實也有修護師是嗎目前我所舉止基本上來講的話典藏的研究人員的話他們可以做一個基本的維護可是如果親入室的修護基本上來講的話都要經過專業訓練才有辦法去進行"},{"start":6060.225,"end":6061.827,"text":"北院修護師、下級南院協助"},{"start":6075.162,"end":6075.322,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6105.026,"end":6128.925,"text":"故宮有什麼樣的一些困境其實在這個地方可以告訴我們的嗎剛剛也有委員提到基本上來講的話我們用傳統的一個庫房管理然後改為RFIDRFID的話雖然晚一點的話但基本上來講它還是一個基礎所以未來的話如果用AI數位化管理的話如果可以節省更多的人力的話當然是一個很好的一個"},{"start":6129.485,"end":6151.995,"text":"因為我們知道其實在器物存放的庫房當中光是就是我們的器物處其實就有6個庫房我們的書畫文獻其實有7個庫房沒錯吧如果所知道總共有13個庫房才配置22個人力其實真的一個庫房大概就是一個人多一點其實是其實是真的不夠的那這個部分其實我們"},{"start":6154.004,"end":6177.892,"text":"因為庫房的管理人力的話其實跟我們研究人員的話是一個互補的就是說研究人員的話基本上來講的話就是書畫類的話就書文處的人他其實要兼顧相對等的一個責任所以因為這個部分的話很難去算說哪一個叫做庫房管理人員哪一個叫做什麼就是說總體來講的話譬如說書文處的話我們大概有28個人力"},{"start":6179.753,"end":6179.953,"text":"蕭薄薄"},{"start":6210.033,"end":6222.757,"text":"故宮還有很大努力空間希望大家給支持好 謝謝謝謝院長 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝郭育群委員我們接下來請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席 請院長好 有請院長"},{"start":6242.135,"end":6261.876,"text":"陳委員早院長早安那今天其實每位委員都很關心我們翠玉白菜的安委也覺得我們故宮在保存文物這一塊不夠謹慎那剛才院長你都已經答詢了這邊本席想要再請教院長是說目前我們針對文物的保存是不是有制定相關的遵循的事項"},{"start":6263.703,"end":6287.853,"text":"有,其實我們有很多相關的規則。我們是不是應該都會滾動檢討,會不定期的拿出來解釋?對,就是從我今年就任以後,我就要求同仁盤點所有的法規命令,然後那個什麼作業規則,所以我們已經盤點了一大堆,就是在下半年的話,我們會出版那個法規的那個作業手段。那所以是因為還不夠詳細嗎?還是說還不夠嚴謹嗎?為什麼會出這樣子的事情?"},{"start":6292.295,"end":6317.069,"text":"因為相關的作業要點或是作業希致作業準則的話就是有點善就是說這個要點會很多所以它沒有一個為什麼我說我要出版手冊呢?手冊就是要把它通通集結在我這邊要要求的就是說你們經過這次的事件之後再把所有的這些SOP全部再檢討過好嗎?是"},{"start":6318.851,"end":6324.201,"text":"希望我們用更嚴謹的態度對待我們的文物不能用這麼鬆散的心態來辦理相關事宜故宮絕對是嚴謹的但是的確是有疏失這個我們承認"},{"start":6330.68,"end":6338.789,"text":"一定要檢討那接下來呢今天早上也多位委員都非常的關心蕭院長你有沒有被徵詢是不是會繼續來擔任我們故宮的院長對未來故宮會由誰繼續帶領大家都非常的關心但是本席在這邊的重點是有一個說法讓我本席覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":6350.402,"end":6357.948,"text":"就是在新任院長還沒有人選沒有公布之前呢有人就用性別當作議題來聲稱如果新任的院長是女性那國寶就不再是國寶院長你覺得這樣的說法恰當嗎國寶永遠是國寶國寶的話有兩種一種的話是我們自己審定的國寶中藥國物一種是民眾認知的就故宮的人氣國寶像崔白菜國寶的定義跟新任院長的性別毫無關係沒有關係"},{"start":6378.786,"end":6390.195,"text":"所以本席覺得非常的遺憾說竟然有這樣的言論那明年故宮就要迎來百年的願慶會面臨很多的挑戰我們也有無限的可能性別不是適任的標準專業才是接下來院長針對我們目前很熱烈討論的現代藝術跟博物館等建築結合的議題最近這個史博館的玻璃盒跟故宮的玻璃亭被熱烈的討論並對比"},{"start":6408.63,"end":6423.668,"text":"那院長您過去曾擔任文化部次長,如果用文化跟博物館學的角度來看,針對說現代建築美學跟博物館的建築的新舊風格這樣如何融合,您有什麼看法?"},{"start":6425.565,"end":6445.243,"text":"古蹟跟新的建築融合其實在全世界的範例就是說並不是沒有有這樣的一個範例但是因為故宮的案例的話是2022年就是他招標然後就是有廠商四家廠商有一家得標得標的廠商的話他就是造一個玻璃入口那因為他"},{"start":6446.164,"end":6472.732,"text":"因為這樣他得標了那得標的話當然第一次送那個臺北市文集審沒有審過可是我上任之後我不能剝奪他的修正權所以基本上來講的話我要求他根據社會的意見然後還有那個臺北市文集集的意見去做修正所以他把量體縮小了把那個協議頂縮小了但是在我們跟民眾的一個公開夜燃的過程裡面還是有很多的意見"},{"start":6473.392,"end":6473.612,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6488.781,"end":6490.663,"text":"謝謝院長您有說會會診相關的意見那其實當初採用玻璃的想法可能因為覺得它是透明的對這個建築物的遮蔽可能就是比較不會讓民眾覺得很違和"},{"start":6505.256,"end":6531.908,"text":"但是如果說啦史博館的這個例子因為史博館的玻璃盒真的讓民眾感覺太突兀但如果說你們要參考羅浮宮、大英博物館都有使用這個玻璃建築這樣子的做法呢其實本席在這邊我不討論說我們這個故宮的玻璃亭是不是要興建這個興建與否不是我關注的焦點而是說在反古跟現代爭執中所謂的去中化就真的想太多想得太複雜"},{"start":6533.069,"end":6533.229,"text":"接下來再跟院長來討論"},{"start":6561.522,"end":6581.049,"text":"就是故宮跟北榮在昨天有簽署合作備忘錄宣布這個金牌人生認知的這個牌卡正式發行那這次一份裡面會有60張的牌卡還有一個手冊那上面的圖卡其實都是故宮的經典文物啊 十分的細緻也讓民眾可以藉這個機會來接觸到我們故宮很珍貴的這些文物"},{"start":6584.71,"end":6604.413,"text":"那透過這個圖卡上面的文物來引導這個失智症的患者來對話呢也促進他們認知能力的訓練那在醫學期刊上啦甚至說北榮神經醫學中心的副職人對這個圖卡的這個作用呢也非常的認可就是說其實這個真的也可以幫助到失智症患者"},{"start":6605.555,"end":6623.477,"text":"我非常肯定說我們故宮在推廣樂齡教育這個服務也很用心也希望說故宮你們能持續的來推廣那在這邊請問叫院長就是說你們跟北榮簽署的這個合作備忘錄之後呢有沒有預計如何來推廣這個這麼好的這個金牌人生這個牌卡"},{"start":6625.242,"end":6648.48,"text":"第一個三年的合作配合 第一個就持續推動這個牌卡之外的話我們希望說有更進階的就譬如說我們可以利用數位科技然後讓這個牌卡的話可以進入到AR VR的一個情況那另外的話當然就是說未來是不是可以用AI來提升認知的話我想三年的時間的話我們會去做研議"},{"start":6649.241,"end":6655.541,"text":"那比如說跟衛福部的醫療院所或是教育部的樂齡中心來合作這個你們有沒有考慮?"},{"start":6656.78,"end":6679.655,"text":"我們不排除跟所有的醫療院所合作因為在那天的話我們也跟榮總講就是說我們盡量盡量比如說我在臺灣博物館的時候我們就跟那個臺北聯合醫學中心去合作然後有那個所謂的社會處方簽去看醫生醫生開一個處方說你要去看博物館類似這樣的情況的話我們未來的話有更多人的合作"},{"start":6681.497,"end":6687.502,"text":"教育部的熱靈中心希望你們可以積極主動推廣我們會跟在部熱靈中心跟衛福部聯絡"},{"start":6689.565,"end":6691.446,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們現在北院做的是60件的故宮產品那我要求故宮南院的話是做以織品為中心然後把台灣的民俗的那個"},{"start":6718.059,"end":6721.92,"text":"關於我們故宮文物這些我們的保存人員我們的修復人員"},{"start":6745.325,"end":6753.127,"text":"故宮有超過70萬件的文物但是我們目前文物修復人員只有16位那在編制內的技術人員有即將退休的那因為原額你們還欲缺不補所以代表之後呢之後的文物修復人員可能會只剩下13位那依照博物管法的規定預算法可以設置就是設置作業基金那作業基金呢可以作為編制外人員的人事支出以自籌30%為限"},{"start":6774.734,"end":6792.325,"text":"那目前我們有4位是透過基金來聘請的那本席記得去年在審查預算的時候呢本來你們故宮的文物藝術發展基金編列的業務收入是3億5千8百85萬那本席有提增列所以變成是3億6千8百85萬那如果說依法在30%之內可以作為人事支出的話"},{"start":6798.749,"end":6821.459,"text":"可以說故宮應該有很大的空間可以聘請修復人員那我們故宮有沒有這樣的規劃來增加人力我們希望說在今年開始我們故宮的人力慢慢回流然後因為門票收入是故宮收入的一個很重要的部分那這樣的話我們基金盈餘的話就可以聘請更多的人員所以院長有這樣的規劃就是說以這樣的基金來支應擴編人力的這個部分"},{"start":6826.381,"end":6846.989,"text":"對 那當然就是我們會重新盤點所有的人力因為剛剛委員資料上面也講說我們的巨工就是退休一切不補所以現在第一個的話我們就控管那個院長的司機院長司機的話要退休不補然後把那個錢留給那個留給那個必要的接下來的話就控管副院長的司機"},{"start":6850.791,"end":6859.137,"text":"謝謝院長 副院長您用心我再提一下我們故宮也有修復實習生是協助修復人員在進行比較非核心的修復工作一些協助的工作這幾年故宮單位都會入企每年入企大概10到15名的修復實習生"},{"start":6876.03,"end":6894.955,"text":"再來呢 如果說因為修復空間 搬遷那個時程不確定我們現在只死收四位 有兩位外籍 兩位是本國籍那你們這邊跟教育部清法署洽談了114年你們會分到有五名那這五名是額外的名額還是在這10到15名之內"},{"start":6897.795,"end":6913.082,"text":"基本上來講的話是這樣就是因為今年的話今年的話是因為我們在整修空間整修空間的話沒有多餘的能量去收納實習生要不然的話我們歷年都增長到最高有14位所以我們希望說等到新故宮計畫"},{"start":6914.423,"end":6931.408,"text":"北院處理好了以後我們可以是5位是外加的如果14位最高的話再加5位的話我們希望說實習生可以到20位可是他會牽涉到一個問題就是說南藝大的國務協務研究所到底有沒有那麼多研究生不可能把所有研究生通通抓來我們這邊實習盡量搶啊我們會努力"},{"start":6936.476,"end":6963.654,"text":"這邊請教院長在故宮實習過的實習生截至目前為止有83位那我相信說他們在故宮實習這個寶貴的經驗對我們台灣培育這個文物的修復人才是有很大的注意那如果說這些畢業生以後來我們故宮這邊應徵的話你們會不會優先入用報告就是故宮的我們的修務的那個洪科長就是在故宮實習的其實我們裡面起碼有三四位是在故宮實習後來到故宮任職的"},{"start":6965.825,"end":6979.905,"text":"所以說因為他們有這樣的經驗也有這樣的默契所以你們會優先的來錄用那有沒有考慮說在暑期的時候提供短期的公讀計畫來緩解修復人力的不足就是這些實習生他們可以來在短期的支援"},{"start":6981.638,"end":7003.46,"text":"因為暑期的話就是實習那實習的話基本上來講的話進入到庫房要經過一個專業的基礎訓練不是任何人都可以進庫房因為基本上來講的話也不是說很簡單的一個行前教育就可以進入所以這個部分的話公讀生的部分他只能做周邊的一個"},{"start":7004.421,"end":7009.585,"text":"我相信我們民眾對故宮的期待就是說除了你們有保存文物的這樣子的一個你們最大的這個工作之外呢對於這個修復文物人才的培育呢我相信民眾也非常的關心就是說我們這個人才會不會斷層我們是持續的有人才可以來人力可以接應上所以希望說"},{"start":7029.798,"end":7033.239,"text":"故宮對於文化修復的人員的培訓能夠多加規劃以上謝謝"},{"start":7057.468,"end":7057.97,"text":"有請院長蕭院長"},{"start":7065.283,"end":7092.624,"text":"委員長好,就是說非常感謝就是週一的安排讓我們可以很近身的去觀察這些修復的藝術那我真的覺得這個修復師的生命真的是孤獨又燦爛的生命那就是延續剛剛前面幾位委員的一些關心我想大家都非常關心這個修復師的人力還有庫房管理的人力因為這也是當時在說人力有所不足那前面其實也有委員問到說我們因為這是關心到這個人事的編制上面的緣額"},{"start":7094.385,"end":7121.739,"text":"現在有一些是因為新內閣要進來所以沒有辦法去來分配是不是可以分配到故宮那我想要確認一件事情就是說如果說我們新內閣進來之後有原額的話院長這邊會不會去爭取基本上來講的話是原額的控管是因為是一個憲政的慣例就是在那個改組階段的話人事凍結等到那個無人之後的話就是他就解凍了解凍的話我們就可以盤點人力然後"},{"start":7122.499,"end":7122.519,"text":"趕快來進補"},{"start":7144.502,"end":7166.955,"text":"故宮要跟世界說明我們的一個定位我們的方向那這一次我看到在所有的部展裡面不管是國際的或是國內的我們有很多的展都是以宋朝的一些藝術品做一些展出那我想要講就是說我們在故宮幾年在北京故宮幾年在台北又是幾年呢"},{"start":7169.096,"end":7179.124,"text":"我想我們在...沒關係直接回答我哪一個時間比較長好了在台北比較長在台北的話1965年在外雙溪的話到現在60年59年然後再加北溝的話大概13年還是17年我現在要算一下總共73年在台灣"},{"start":7192.535,"end":7192.975,"text":"這部分想請教院長"},{"start":7220.646,"end":7242.086,"text":"當然故宮一百plus我們不要用一百的話就是一百plus的話就表示說我們會往前看但是因為以目前來講的話我們大概就是會做一個回顧成為剛委員講的話以宋朝的文物為主因為宋朝的文物是故宮博物院宋冶明清裡面最"},{"start":7242.987,"end":7245.168,"text":"所以我想問一下這個100plus是指說接下來明年之後嗎?"},{"start":7266.534,"end":7267.896,"text":"所以我們在哪一個系列會把台灣的這些元素放進去呢?"},{"start":7275.363,"end":7276.723,"text":"對,但是我是說在這個故宮百年系列展裡面有嗎?我們有規劃嗎?"},{"start":7297.523,"end":7325.932,"text":"只要告訴我有沒有好不好我跟委員報告一下因為這個就是很敏感因為我們放了太多的臺灣元素的話就會出現兩個字就是因為你加入比如說我們故宮北院然後故宮南院的話蓋故宮南院就是為了兩個字同樣的如果我們加了過多的臺灣元素的話又會有那兩個字大小院長我現在看起來是因為我們幾乎沒有臺灣元素因為我們現在基本上我覺得我們還是要去做出一個差異化"},{"start":7326.713,"end":7340.469,"text":"我們在那個展覽裡面有一個夾子萬年就是講說那個故宮博物院在台灣這一夾子裡面的跟文物的故事跟關係人物的關係所以我們會有這樣的一個東西但是直接"},{"start":7341.51,"end":7349.912,"text":"我希望就是說因為畢竟我們是要展望未來啦未來就是在台灣了嘛那我們應該還是要有更多相關的一些展覽去做一些規劃那再來就是說我們來看一下因為回顧到我們講基金是我們能不能聘請人力的一個很重要的一個裁員"},{"start":7368.837,"end":7394.296,"text":"那我現在看到我們其實是有短著三千多萬在今年的預算裡面我們看起來是不夠的那我們就來看我們要如何賺錢好不好那我看一下我們之前有做一個網路的資料調查其實你們也調查了來客率就是說來訪的人數訪客在北院的話年紀是比較長的南院是比較年輕的可是有一個很重要的重點就是在北院幾乎在未到訪以未滿15歲的比例為最高達到了將近四成"},{"start":7395.237,"end":7418.226,"text":"南院則是以15到24歲的比例最高,佔41.2%所以這看起來是有兩個問題我們要來處理的首先我們先來處理一個我們如何去吸引所謂的15到24歲的人來我們的故宮百年文創我們現在做的這百年文創的紀念品紀念郵票、紀念幣、紀念酒其實是非常適合我們現在所謂的主要客群就是50歲以上的"},{"start":7418.626,"end":7419.286,"text":"我跟院長建議可以做個參考"},{"start":7436.243,"end":7458.849,"text":"就是說我們有沒有看過像這樣子的東西有看過有看過嗎?有看過對不對?看起來我看院長都會心一笑齁就其實這個東西是在日本出的一系列的喔他們不僅有出這樣子的自由女神的扭蛋喔那這個民眾就買了之後還是開始回去哭首做很多不同的創意這樣"},{"start":7460.469,"end":7476.556,"text":"還有他們還有跟紐約大都會博物館也有做一系列的部分那我就在想我們是不是可以把這件事情變成扭蛋呢我們可不可以有更多的創意去吸引我們的年輕人為了這件事情來到走進故宮有沒有更多的誘因這是不是一個可行性的方向"},{"start":7477.732,"end":7506.949,"text":"基本上來講的話除了我們那個計畫中比較制式的一個文創商品之外的話其實我們現在在想說如何跟台灣的百年老店結合讓他們跟故宮聯名那另外的話我們會鼓勵就是說不同的所有跟故宮合作過的業者他們都可以在故宮百年100plus的中間開發是他們的文創商品那當然不排除把聯名繼續往下降"},{"start":7507.897,"end":7520.946,"text":"對,因為我覺得我們最大的問題是15到24歲的人不來了這個地方是我們必須要去解決的因為它如果我們可以在這個時候去把它吸引進來我們就有可能去補足未來人口凋零的這個問題再來就是說針對15歲以下因為我們剛剛還有15歲以下的問題"},{"start":7526.169,"end":7552.788,"text":"在北院15歲以下的將近4成的沒有來過故宮那我看了一下就是紐約大都會博物館啊多倫多皇家安大陸博物館都是國家級的博物館他們都有針對18歲以下的小孩以不同的年齡層去開發不同型的課程作為他們學校校外教學的活動那目前我看是故宮南院有做類似的那不曉得說我們在故宮北院是不是也可以以這個方向來做一些規劃"},{"start":7554.169,"end":7579.853,"text":"故宮北院的兒育中心基本上來講大家擔心說北院的兒育中心開了之後北院的那個地下一樓的那個兒童的那個空間會不會取消不會那個會繼續但是北院的兒育中心就是現在第二行政大樓跟那個我們適當的舊的宿舍的話我們就會變成是一個教案教協的一個可以受惠的一個場域"},{"start":7580.595,"end":7581.115,"text":"故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席"},{"start":7600.1,"end":7617.092,"text":"故宮對於兒童青少年我們原則上的話都盡量採取免費的一個服務包括志工導覽都免費對我知道因為他小時候進來嘛長大他才有可能持續的進來我們其實在為未來的客人幫他招募進來那我還是想的就是說我們還是要去賺未來一直一直去賺錢好不好"},{"start":7618.843,"end":7640.329,"text":"所以這個資料我也可以提供給故宮那再來延續一下不好意思我再接一點時間就是故宮兒童學藝中心我們有收到民眾來陳情就是說3C數位的設備過多而且自費量非常非常多對於學齡前的孩子來說其實並不友善那當時故宮回應我的是說我們有辦了26場互動活動但是我想院長一定非常曉得右下角那張照片就是南門博物館"},{"start":7642.37,"end":7658.375,"text":"我們其實活動行程跟長社展可以讓他去觸碰的那個感覺還是不一樣就學齡前的孩子他真的資質量不夠多他也是需要透過互動、接觸、觸摸種種的這種感受性的方式去增加他跟這個藝術品跟這個博物館的一些經驗"},{"start":7660.631,"end":7679.48,"text":"右上角其實是多倫多的安大略自然史博物館它裡面就是有一些挖掘的我想這個院長一定非常熟悉所以我在想說未來我們是不是可以針對學藝中心去做一些調整讓一些幼齡的孩子進來的時候他也可以在這邊跟藝術品互動其實那個學藝中心的話那個數位互動的話因為它在面牆上面但是"},{"start":7679.96,"end":7682.361,"text":"對,沒錯,真的是一個問題,因為像我自己,像多寶格那時候我也很想參加,但我也沒有報到名"},{"start":7706.872,"end":7707.012,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝主席"},{"start":7734.124,"end":7746.328,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 院長請回在此宣告一下 等到葉元芝委員質詢完 我們休息五分鐘好 我們接下來請吳佩儀委員謝謝主席 我請故宮博物院蕭宗煌院長好 有請蕭院長"},{"start":7764.895,"end":7783.042,"text":"院長好 我們今天的報告主題是回首百年放眼未來故宮定位與部會級博物館社會責任的總檢討那當然也聽過院長的報告以及我們的簡報但我仍然要在這裡請教院長您認為故宮最重要的社會責任是什麼"},{"start":7785.337,"end":7805.128,"text":"故宮最重要的社會責任的話如果說以博物館的一個核心的話我們把這些典藏做好那當然是最重要的一個社會責任因為維持這些人類的瑰寶的話其實不容易那當然再來的話就是要把這些瑰寶的話分享給所有不只是台灣而是全世界的民眾"},{"start":7806.694,"end":7827.365,"text":"對,我們負有把這些重要的人類的文明的古文物修復保護好的責任我們也負有把這些文物和這些歷史相關的文化分享給包括國內以及國外社群的責任我覺得這非常的重要那我們故宮正在進行這個新故宮計畫"},{"start":7828.826,"end":7842.437,"text":"那在改革的路上總是會遇到很多的辯論以及討論像這一次我們的新故宮計畫這新聞上面有說有些人以這個新故宮計畫是不是在進行去中國化來進行反對的意見那去中國化這個名詞對我來說也是一個歷史名詞"},{"start":7851.184,"end":7856.867,"text":"我算是出生在臺灣解嚴那一年但有記得從小我們在電視新聞上看到臺灣當年在討論要教改的時候就有人出聲反對說不行不行這個教改叫做去中國化那所以呢我想我們如果回顧人類的歷史其實臺灣也不孤單人類歷史上面每當要改革的時候總是會遇到各式各樣似是而非"},{"start":7876.195,"end":7892.325,"text":"的言論來作為反動的修辭他的目的是什麼呢目的就是要讓你害怕讓你的改革不敢前進所以我想不只是我們故宮的改革還有我們各項在進行的改革都希望不要憂慚慰激"},{"start":7894.346,"end":7921.162,"text":"主要是什麼?要秉持你們的專業院長剛剛在回覆很多委員的問題的時候我都相當的讚賞不管是哪一個黨派委員的問題你都秉持你的專業故宮的文物修復尤其這是何等專業的事情那接下來我想要請教院長的是我們剛剛有提到的是我們的古物修復人力除了人力的數量是否足夠以外我想故宮過去在古文物的修復"},{"start":7922.042,"end":7924.803,"text":"臺灣目前我們的古物修復是還沒有朝向證照制所以我想要請教院長的意見"},{"start":7946.65,"end":7963.92,"text":"因為我們民間有在參與說我們的古物修復是不是可以來參照古蹟修復師他可以來把它制度化有一個證照的制度以日本來說他們也有日本國寶修理裝潢師聯盟他建立的是修理技術者的資格制度裡面他用分級的"},{"start":7964.54,"end":7971.766,"text":"所以一個修復師技術師的培養可能是要17年的時間以英國來說他也是由專業團體來執行專業認證的保存計劃那院長以我們故宮過去的經驗你認為台灣的古物修復有沒有需要朝向制度化"},{"start":7984.996,"end":8012.325,"text":"我覺得這個非常有必要因為跟文資的修復人力一樣因為我記得也是01級委員就是在爭取那個古蹟修復的專業技術的他的那個薪水的支付的等級所以這個部分的話有很好的突破那我覺得未來的話修復師如果可以導入一個證照制度然後讓這些修復師的話可以有一個合法的身份去從事修復的話我覺得這是一個良性的發展"},{"start":8012.751,"end":8018.759,"text":"是 所以我希望故宮未來若文化部開始在研擬這個古路修夫斯的徵兆制的時候故宮可以把我們過去的經驗你們經驗是最寶貴的來提供分享給文化部協助台灣來去把它制度化再來是"},{"start":8028.072,"end":8028.332,"text":"臺灣在去年高雄開始營運的內圍藝術中心也是國內首"},{"start":8052.595,"end":8053.476,"text":"故宮目前有沒有在進行相關的規劃?"},{"start":8063.816,"end":8086.315,"text":"故宮藍燕的國寶館裡面有一個修復的專業的一個工作室基本上來講的話我們也是有這樣的概念但是這樣的概念的話並不是說任何人的話隨時隨間隨時隨刻都可以進到修復室去參觀他是一個導覽的一個形式去介紹修復的過程而不是來檢視說工作人員到底有沒有偷懶"},{"start":8087.416,"end":8107.19,"text":"有一個動作比如說光清洗的動作可能他要在那邊清洗一個鐘頭那外界會誤為說他在那邊偷懶所以這個部分的話他是一個專業的一個怎麼講規劃的調配的參訪行程並不是說隨隨便便所以像那個內文中心的話他也要1月4的參觀"},{"start":8108.391,"end":8130.936,"text":"是 所以我們國保館也是新故宮計畫的一環剛剛講這個可見式修復這個觀念就很重要 院長你講的就是我們為什麼要做這個可見式修復的空間其實在做教育跟推廣我們希望讓國人 更多的民眾可以了解修復工作的重要性以及它的價值然後大家也會更加的尊重那剛剛有提到說 院長你提到說故宮很缺乏行銷相關的資源你認為目前的預算編列是不夠的"},{"start":8138.038,"end":8138.659,"text":"現在是增加到三位數"},{"start":8155.973,"end":8168.027,"text":"除了數字之外我想國人會更想要了解的是這些錢運算我們是要放在什麼樣的位置院長以你的過去在故宮的經驗你認為故宮現在需要增加哪些的行銷計畫"},{"start":8169.363,"end":8193.603,"text":"我想如果有經會的話基本上國際行銷是我們比較缺乏的一塊因為這個怎麼講呢因為在過去的那個年代裡面所有的新聞局或是外交部的駐外單位都會把故宮行銷故宮當作第一個本位那當然就是說因為現在大家經會也缺乏了所以變成說故宮的所謂的宣傳的部分的話都要故宮去處理"},{"start":8194.404,"end":8214.296,"text":"所以我們希望說可以譬如說參加國內外的國際禮展或是說在國際媒體上面去做行銷這個部分的話需要有一些經費來處理是 這個我是支持的增加行銷的資源讓故宮的國際免件度去增加因為內容跟行銷兩者是缺一不可而故宮是台灣極好的優勢我們有極好的內容所以應該要通過行銷能夠"},{"start":8218.098,"end":8232.694,"text":"故宮帶領臺灣走向世界那我看到像這個你看一下這個這個院長看一下這個照片這個是美國一個跨性別模特Hunter Shaffer他的衣服你看得出來他是依據哪一個作品來設計的嗎?"},{"start":8233.835,"end":8237.397,"text":"其實我們故宮過去也有做過文物跟時尚的結合2018年的時候我們跟台灣的服裝設計師周允合作就把我們的翠玉白菜是帶到了紐約的時裝周我覺得當時就是一個很好的嘗試"},{"start":8250.186,"end":8253.268,"text":"因為不只是台灣的服裝設計還結合了台灣本土的音樂創作結合了我們已故的楊秀卿老師的兩關柯志豪老師的音樂還有熊仔的rap所以呢我覺得這是一個很好的嘗試那我也希望故宮能夠再去增加去規劃更多的"},{"start":8269.68,"end":8282.825,"text":"相關的行銷的計畫能夠去增加我們的國際能見度特別是我們不只是要打破文化的疆界不只是要出海出航我們是要打破藝術的跨領域能夠透過我們故宮文物跟我們台灣其他本土的藝術文化創作者來結合我想這會是一個非常重要的也是故宮的社會責任"},{"start":8295.559,"end":8310.343,"text":"這個部分我希望未來故宮當我們提出我們的行銷的預算要增加的時候也可以更加明確的告訴我們我們如何透過行銷來增加國際的能見度可以嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝吳佩奕委員"},{"start":8328.186,"end":8331.709,"text":"好 謝謝下一位我們請林一錦委員質詢好 謝謝 謝謝主席 有請院長院長好首先想要請教院長喔你是否聽過這樣的說法因為媒體喔他指稱你是被公認這個故宮歷來院長中最不政治的政務官這種說法你認同嗎"},{"start":8358.36,"end":8382.936,"text":"我不太懂實際上最不政治的政務官我覺得這句話其實充滿矛盾因為我不認為那是對政務官正向的形容詞如果真的有政務官自認為能置身於政治之外那我想他就是根本搞不清楚自己的角色定位不適合擔任代表國家這樣的一個責任"},{"start":8384.717,"end":8393.686,"text":"當然部分的論者有說台灣內部因為兩岸意識形態對立所以讓故宮難逃政治的角力但是本席認為其實這是一種把故宮純粹當作博物館看待的觀點在我國現行的政治體下其實這是經不起挑戰的謬論"},{"start":8408.519,"end":8423.589,"text":"怎麼說故宮不是難逃政治的角力而是故宮根本不敢不用妄想要逃離政治的角力因為故宮現在的定位跟角色安排他根本就是政治的產物"},{"start":8424.429,"end":8446.988,"text":"故宮作為博物館直接隸屬於行政院之下他的院長形成像您現在院長就是形同於內閣成員那要到立法院來備詢那所以這怎麼可能不政治啊好那長期以來從文化政治的面向我們探討故宮的問題那有一個日本資深的媒體人"},{"start":8449.189,"end":8471.936,"text":"也導綱他去年10月底以故宮博物院外級的諮詢委員的身份來訪台有參加長達三天的這個會議他對故宮的經營有提出很多的建議那其實這不是第一次也導綱對故宮做出建言早在2016年他就有說過"},{"start":8472.996,"end":8489.007,"text":"故宮應該早日放下法統的任務放下中華文化本位的優越感要思考怎麼樣成為臺灣人的故宮所以院長你是否這個認同這個葉導綱的建議就是說讓故宮放下這個法統的任務並且成為臺灣人的故宮又這麼問好了啦院長你認為故宮本土化了嗎還是說故宮本土化的意義跟價值何在院長"},{"start":8503.757,"end":8526.29,"text":"第一個跟委員報告 認同葉道剛的觀點 因為外面的觀點的話當然是可以給我們參考可是要放下華同 放下中華文化本位的優越感 就像故宮當時成立的目的跟委員講的就是一個政治下的產物 所以這個糾葛跟羈絆的話基本上來講的話是很難完全排除的"},{"start":8528.394,"end":8529.234,"text":"應該這樣做,但是現在還在糾纏之中"},{"start":8544.485,"end":8562.596,"text":"故宮百年的歲月中有70多年在台灣度過那理論上故宮早該跟這塊土地上生根而且發展出在地的連結那可是無論是組織改造也好又或者是故宮修復再利用的計畫都有人覺得在去中國化那請問院長你認為什麼叫做去中國化"},{"start":8569.6,"end":8584.942,"text":"故宮的文物屬於中國嗎?那如果故宮的文物本來就不屬於中國就如同您書面報告所主張的嘛它是人類所共享的歷史文明瑰寶那到底有什麼去中國化的空間可言?院長"},{"start":8586.968,"end":8611.3,"text":"有時候這樣講就是很簡單的簡化的兩個字他當然會限縮到一個理性對話或是改革的空間因為當然就是說我不願意講這兩個字因為故宮面臨其苦任何的作為的話都會套上兩個字所以這個對故宮的長遠的發展的話其實是不利的"},{"start":8612.406,"end":8635.942,"text":"那另外的話就是說所謂的故宮在地化故宮的話從1948、49年到了台灣在北溝1965年到外雙溪基本上來講我是南部的小孩子南部小孩子的願望就畢業典禮的時候可以去參觀故宮但是在這個過程裡面從來沒有小孩子說認為說我去參觀故宮的話就是會被統戰或是有什麼特別的意義"},{"start":8636.682,"end":8660.061,"text":"所以故宮的本土化其實已經逐漸在進行了那最近故宮推行的任何活動的話也都是拉伸故宮跟台灣這一段土地的感情不管是策展或是文創行銷或是教育推廣活動基本上來講的話我們都沒有所謂的器中的思維這個我要再澄清了解對所以就是說"},{"start":8662.276,"end":8671.926,"text":"高院長您講得對可是就是說有很多來自中國的境外勢力跟他的同路人都紛紛的希望能夠透過故宮來進一步消除台灣跟中國之間國跟國的關係"},{"start":8679.975,"end":8698.495,"text":"就像最近去 前一陣子去訪中的前總統馬英九他上個月到中國故宮的時候就說任何去中國化的行徑都不會成功因為中華文化遠遠流長以及生殖炎黃子孫的血脈當中"},{"start":8701.038,"end":8709.407,"text":"馬英九這種論述實際上就是在當中國政協委員的硬生蟲那上一次的詢答本席就有跟院長討論到中國召開兩會的時間有政協委員放話說要針對兩岸故宮的合作、交流、提案、建議他的論述是"},{"start":8721.559,"end":8724.062,"text":"兩岸故宮堅負著兩岸同胞講好中國故事傳遞文化認同感的時代使命讓金台深入融合交流形成統一的認知"},{"start":8737.253,"end":8757.627,"text":"中國政協說的 馬英九也認同所以上一次因為時間的關係那院長我有問出四問院長您那因為時間的關係你沒有辦法做出完整的回答所以我是不是再問你一次第一是否認同中國假借文物之名行文化統戰之實把博物館當作"},{"start":8759.318,"end":8781.243,"text":"政治工具的這個行為第二台灣故宮有沒有促進台灣人對中國產生認同感第三故宮文物是屬於全中國的還是屬於全人類的文化資產第四如果遇到中國單方面放話那並提出很多的理由來跟我們故宮做交流我國故宮要什麼樣實際行為來捍衛對等跟尊嚴"},{"start":8785.125,"end":8785.145,"text":"院長．"},{"start":8791.455,"end":8814.109,"text":"我簡單回答故宮是屬於全世界的文化遺產因為宋元明清那時候還沒有中華人民共和國那另外的話就是兩岸的交流要在一個法律基礎上對等然後可以友善的方式來進行如果以現在經濟造台的狀況的話其實是看不到那樣的交流的契機"},{"start":8815.35,"end":8835.457,"text":"那當然就是說台灣故宮有沒有促進台灣人對中國產生認同感我覺得這是兩回事因為欣賞一個重要的人類文化資產跟對中國產生認同感這個是兩回事我不認為說台灣的小學生或是大學生中學生去參訪故宮就變成是說被統戰了這個不會"},{"start":8837.618,"end":8837.818,"text":"好 院長"},{"start":8867.013,"end":8889.628,"text":"最後20秒就是說您上任的時候你有許一個願望就是說要讓故宮回歸博物館的專業那當然除了讓板橋林家私人文物繼續利用公共資源寄存這個以外當然你另外一項的政策跟前院長大相徑庭的作為就是說在故宮改組這個議題"},{"start":8891.309,"end":8914.446,"text":"您跟吳院長的這個想法是不同的他是支持改立文化部那您是覺得改立文化部不是很好的選項剛剛有很多委員問你你也是這樣回答那我今天還是請院長負起責任的告訴大家你覺得故宮應該置身於哪個位階才能夠少一點建制而且可以回歸博物館的專業"},{"start":8915.969,"end":8933.914,"text":"以我們跟人事總署請我們研究的計畫故宮最適合的組織定位當然第一個維持現狀第二個改立文化部第三個用基金的經營第四個行政法律這是一個顯像但是以目前來講為什麼當初沒有講呢因為它還沒有臨近社會的共識"},{"start":8935.595,"end":8962.072,"text":"改立文化部主資緣額關係故宮的組織緣額預算可能會降低另外故宮同仁的研究員是比較學校教授副教授可是到了文化部以後他會降階所以這個部分牽涉到很多問題尤其是以現在來講故宮進行新故宮計畫還有改相違規整個展品的定位重新盤整的時候如果以現在作為過季列的組織改造的話"},{"start":8964.716,"end":8966.932,"text":"整個運作的情況是不利的"},{"start":8968.237,"end":8997.317,"text":"委員長當然組織改造牽涉到很多的政治層面可是我要跟你強調一下蘇院長曾經承諾過他說改例後錢也不會減少然後整個他會尊重專業考慮量人必據原則然後同仁的權益跟機關的經費一樣都不會少當初蘇院長是這樣承諾當然啦這個未來是新的院長可是我想這個整個的政策是延續性的所以我想這樣跟你報告"},{"start":8997.677,"end":9022.112,"text":"我跟委員報告一下那另外一個選擇的話就是說如果以我的觀點來講的話現在的兩廳院如果當初維持是一個教育部教育部的首屬單位或是文化部的首屬單位現在的國家表演藝術中心絕對沒有現在的量能所以當然它是一個選項可是這個選項的話要有更多的社會共識跟討論好 了解 院長謝謝謝主席"},{"start":9031.619,"end":9031.94,"text":"吳春成議員"},{"start":9048.685,"end":9070.923,"text":"吳委員早蕭委員長好標題看起來就很恐怖看起來就很恐怖好這個延續啦這個因為最近我今天也看到很多人在關心接下來故宮的走向那所以我想想要了解一下這即將就職的賴政府"},{"start":9074.775,"end":9097.63,"text":"故宮的角色是什麼繼續的弘揚中華文化還是會降級為博物館那也希望啦因為上次3月7號的時候在跟院長的對話的時候其實我們有很多精彩的對話那但是可以看得到這個最不政治化的"},{"start":9098.717,"end":9122.548,"text":"院長其實非常政治化你是政治高手你所有的話都會避開那個政治的地雷這個比如說我來問說故宮的產品是屬於我們國家的嗎你的回答說當然是我們國家的而且是屬於全世界的這個第一句對然後第二句就閃掉了"},{"start":9125.989,"end":9145.216,"text":"中華文化是我們的嗎?中華文化是台灣文化非常重要的一部分,但是除了中華文化之外,我們還有各種文化,也要一併的重視。這都是院長很標準的回答,但是我可以看得出你的辛苦。"},{"start":9147.182,"end":9165.569,"text":"我想在民進黨政府執政之下的故宮非常辛苦我也為我們故宮的同仁叫屈你們都是文化的專家對這些事情的內涵你們自有見解你們非常的清楚"},{"start":9167.527,"end":9180.912,"text":"但是就像我們的院長一樣你們要學會院長的功夫不然你們的未來前途堪慮處處都是危險 處處都是地雷這個肺腑之言"},{"start":9189.23,"end":9210.691,"text":"還是問一下 院長中華文化接下來還會是臺灣的重要文化嗎?上次你很肯定當然是當然是你覺得還是中華文化是臺灣文化重要的內涵之一內涵之一之一 還是之二好 OK OK 不要太為難你"},{"start":9215.913,"end":9235.217,"text":"中華文化其實我們上次有非常深入的探討這個文化其實在兩岸的關係之中現在講了就是說中華文化不是屬於廣義的中國的中華文化的那它是人類 全世界人類的"},{"start":9238.973,"end":9252.961,"text":"這個說法有一點是 你的錢就是大家的錢我的錢是我的錢 你的錢也是我的錢世界文化遺產的概念 世界文化遺產的話 世界大同這個很有世界大同 財產的話跟資產的話是有一點點差異性"},{"start":9259.244,"end":9287.395,"text":"至於這裡我想最重要的是我們即將520上來的新政府怎麼看待故宮那最近就因為有一個新內閣的撤離會今天很多人在問那就是大家突然發現院長你沒有出席所以大家就傳說故宮要降級了那為什麼要"},{"start":9290.068,"end":9309.515,"text":"為什麼會有這一些傳言?因為其實在2020年的時候行政院就提出故宮的降級、隸屬於文化部的這一些說確實有在討論那原因就是其實在這裡故宮是一個文化的傳承"},{"start":9312.155,"end":9327.689,"text":"很重要的象徵還是只是一個博物館一個專業的博物館因為如果只是一個專業博物館列為部長級的閣議員的確在世界上也是蠻奇怪的"},{"start":9328.823,"end":9351.497,"text":"那請問院長可能嗎?可能會被有這種歸屬的文化不得第一個傳故宮降級行政院一改三期獨立法人的第一個字是傳因為跟故宮的很多那個國寶作品一樣寫傳的話那不一定就是真的不一定就是真的但是你自己的覺得呢?"},{"start":9352.317,"end":9368.322,"text":"各位報告一下沒有人正式約詢也沒有人正式跟我討論這個事情故宮內部也完全都沒有討論那沒有見面沒有出席搞不好是更好的事情喔搞不好是升級喔"},{"start":9370.084,"end":9388.444,"text":"會不會搞不好就是這個認為未來故宮要傳承更多的中華文化戰略的文化成為台灣重要戰略統戰大陸所以呢以故宮出發會不會有這種戰略的想法然後所以呢要把故宮改曆屬總統府"},{"start":9392.66,"end":9402.887,"text":"有可能嗎?這種預測基本上來講的話是我沒有辦法想像因為傳說故宮隸屬過總統府,但是從來都沒有你自己比較覺得可能會發生的?"},{"start":9410.151,"end":9439.231,"text":"不是因為個人位置的問題不是氣流的問題可是以目前故宮的狀況來講的話保留現狀的話讓它有一個穩定的發展過程的話我覺得是比較對故宮來講比較有利的因為現在在做工程現在在做庫房的改造然後空間的重新定位然後還要改相違規然後接下來要盤點如果我們去做比較變動比較大的組織改造的話會比較不好"},{"start":9441.988,"end":9468.869,"text":"維持現狀保持模糊一中各表反正就是這種模糊都很但是問題是新政府不曉得願不願意這樣做我想故宮院長的位置的棄由是長官決定那整個故宮的定位的話未來也是行政院決定那另外的話他一定要經過大院審議通過所以這個部分的話我只能做這樣的一個表示"},{"start":9469.289,"end":9494.843,"text":"好 這個當然就是 因為這個的模糊 為什麼說剛才為故宮的同仁教區就是說你們真的會很辛苦因為 你想要做專業 樹易盡而風不止就是你要好好的做事情 但是沒有人要讓你好好做事情那所以你要做任何事情 就動輒得就那 OK 包括你的建築"},{"start":9496.365,"end":9496.946,"text":"院長覺得呢?"},{"start":9518.392,"end":9536.889,"text":"故宮這個建築其實它已經變成是臺灣的一個地景甚至地標在全世界的話只要出現這樣的一個畫面的話大家都知道是國立故宮博物院所以它代表臺灣的一個整體的形象我想這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":9538.831,"end":9558.647,"text":"好 謝謝 所以 這個我們跳過去啦 這個因為最近有這些爭議啦 報死博款的玻璃屋 故宮也研議在外面的一個伸展 大家各方有不同的看法啦那這一個 院長接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":9559.967,"end":9560.788,"text":"新舊融合"},{"start":9575.247,"end":9575.988,"text":"院長你自己心裡你希望升格還是降格?"},{"start":9605.591,"end":9611.358,"text":"欸 降格有時候蠻好的喔一旦降格以後就不要再吵這些嘛大家好好做專業工作嘛"},{"start":9612.31,"end":9612.33,"text":"姜濤議員"},{"start":9643.371,"end":9644.832,"text":"祝福院長一帆風順"},{"start":9666.62,"end":9690.47,"text":"首先跟葉委員在這裡鄭重道歉就上次的話就是有失禮的地方就請多多見諒那院長你就由來台上我想跟您請教一下第一個我看到您的報告講到故宮博物院嚴格前面有一句話就是說因為國寶文物因緣際會來到台灣"},{"start":9693.191,"end":9711.902,"text":"這個是第一頁你上面寫的因緣際會這因緣際會真的是把我們國寶來到台灣輕描淡寫你不曉得我們國寶來到台灣是多麼的千辛萬苦當初我們的國寶在南京當時的有志之士我們的先賢先烈為了怕這一批國寶遭受到日軍的摧毀"},{"start":9713.143,"end":9741.558,"text":"所以多少人拔山涉水要躲過日軍飛機的盤旋炸彈的攻擊然後過拔山涉水的時候千辛萬苦結果你們對於對國寶來台灣這個事情輕描淡寫就寫個因緣際會那難怪大家會對於你們保存國寶跟保護故宮的權利會覺得很沒有信心嘛所以今天為什麼一個照片出來大家會炸鍋當然你們有你們的解釋啊你們認為說那個人在旁邊3公分小書師"},{"start":9743.376,"end":9743.876,"text":"是不是小書師?是不是小書師?"},{"start":9769.323,"end":9771.344,"text":"所以你還是覺得是小疏失是不是?"},{"start":9788.885,"end":9805.944,"text":"你還是覺得很小疏失對不對?如果故宮的態度是覺得小疏失那所有為這些國寶擔心的民眾都白擔心了啦因為這種問題表現在你們心態上嘛你的心態認為小疏失代表以後還是可能會出現一樣的狀況啊你那麼認為是小疏失你就回答我這個問題是不是?"},{"start":9808.004,"end":9811.425,"text":"各位今天有故宮的人在國寶旁邊3公分簽這個字故宮院長的態度是小書師對於故宮的這樣的態度"},{"start":9828.769,"end":9840.97,"text":"我深表遺憾我強力譴責啊如果故宮院長認為這是小疏失的話大家怎麼能夠放心把國寶交給你們啊我請教一下那個國寶是吹白的還是真還假的"},{"start":9850.129,"end":9862.562,"text":"反正故宮很多出來展示的東西也不見得是真的啦所以才會這種態度啦所有人因為你的小疏失已經懷疑故宮展示的東西是假的你知道嗎你還是覺得小疏失"},{"start":9863.809,"end":9878.205,"text":"這是一個嚴重的錯誤你剛剛說小書詩你現在變嚴重錯誤到底是小書詩的嚴重錯誤當然是一個不精心的小書詩不精心的小書詩但是是一個嚴重錯誤你在講什麼你講的話你的小孩聽得懂嗎"},{"start":9879.386,"end":9879.606,"text":"你覺得是?"},{"start":9905.629,"end":9919.417,"text":"院長是不是你就是要靠著你這三寸不爛之舌爭取你的故宮院長的位置是不是呃這無關氣流無關氣流因為同仁我認為你光是認為這個是一個小書師你就可以下台了啦還要繼續做"},{"start":9924.986,"end":9948.198,"text":"國寶我剛剛跟你講了所有的國寶是大家千辛萬苦運來的你說是因緣際會然後發生這種嚴重的事情全台灣的人都認為是嚴重的事情只有你故宮院長認為是小疏失千辛萬苦是在故宮的院史裡面都有記載千辛萬苦的確沒有錯對但是你報告過來就是因緣際會輕描淡寫然後對照你們最近做的事情我們故宮現在"},{"start":9952.83,"end":9977.029,"text":"故宮博物院裡面還有多少文物損壞?多少?還有多少文物損壞?還有多少文物損壞?沒有辦法用這樣一條線話說什麼叫做損壞因為文物的保存的狀況本來各有優劣有的保存的情況好有的本來進攻的狀況不好我現在問你還有多少損壞你就回答我的問題不敢講喔"},{"start":9979.096,"end":9996.804,"text":"有多少文物損壞嗎?我現在不是問你損壞的原因我現在是問你有多少文物現在是損壞還沒修復的?多少?損壞還沒有修復沒有辦法用這樣的講法大概我們有40件的代修的書畫40件代修的書畫還有咧?"},{"start":10000.889,"end":10013.679,"text":"現在的話 如果說以現在同仁給我的資料的話以送修的圖書文獻108件 然後書畫92件 器物55件 織品10件 正在修復然後目前代從表的有240件"},{"start":10015.62,"end":10017.441,"text":"請問一下,剛剛說器物有55件待修復對不對?這55件是怎麼壞掉的?"},{"start":10037.628,"end":10044.932,"text":"人是人為的?為什麼自然元素它會損毀?進攻的時候 譬如說它有一個關帽 它的珍珠本來就散掉了或是說一個大的馬老豬 它進來的時候就散掉了你說進攻之前就壞掉了?你們去年的時候 非常的這個"},{"start":10063.664,"end":10091.781,"text":"公開的開了一個展示會說我們有三個國寶損壞嘛對不對有一個是紅字款的一個小碗康熙款的一個瓷碗還有一個是被你們弄壞的一個乾隆的青瓷盤結果你們開了一個展示會展示說欸我們修好了然後還大方的講說怎麼修復的過程有吧有結果我剛剛問你有多少袋修復你講了一大堆一拖拉鼓然後有的是進攻前就壞掉了你到現在都沒有修好"},{"start":10093.598,"end":10119.387,"text":"所以你們只做公關是不是不是 文物的修并不是說所有的文物都要修這個基本上來講沒有那個修那代修有多少我問你這基本的問題你都回答不出來還要看資料你一個故宮博物院院長不就是要保管好那些國寶嗎你還要看資料你應該倒背如流如數家珍欸我跟委員報告我剛剛問你問題答不出來還要下面給小抄"},{"start":10119.847,"end":10148.169,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說所謂的損壞的程度不一然後他要修復的有的是譬如說天桿那邊黏一下就好了有的是說要把它整平有的要去背要重裱每一個狀況都不一樣所以沒有辦法講說是壞是啦那你到底那你我剛講嘛55個待修復什麼時候要修好嘛所以是不修還是怎麼樣你自己講待修復然後又說不一定要修然後又說修復的原因不一樣我們修復課長說這一季就會修好"},{"start":10148.854,"end":10162.964,"text":"那你剛剛又講一大堆自己打臉自己喔院長們上一次質詢的時候有跟你講到網路上查到非常多有人把故宮的土檔拿去賣後來去追了沒"},{"start":10164.191,"end":10192.908,"text":"最後我沒有發的公文也請淘寶往下加發給誰 發給公文我現在秀 我現在又沒有時間了啦我簡單秀 我簡單秀一下齁幾個問題喔 第一個去年曾經有人爆料啦說廈門有成立一家公司假冒的故宮的名義成立一個臺北故宮交流中心知道吧 知道這是吧知道 知道你們現在動作是怎樣 有去提告嗎提告了對不對有 有提告去年六七月的時候人家要檢舉了今年三月才提告"},{"start":10194.721,"end":10213.467,"text":"完了半年以後第二個這是台灣人在對岸成立的公司假冒故宮名義招搖撞騙結果你們有沒有找台灣的檢調協助去調查網友直接在講是苗栗等家公司有沒有找台灣檢調有那為什麼多多多慢查到了嗎"},{"start":10215.141,"end":10241.188,"text":"現在這個問題還持續存在你知道嗎?處長現在這個問題還持續存在你知道嗎?我先秀給你看你知不知道現在抖音上面你知不知道現在抖音上面還有台北故宮交流中心你知道嗎?還在欸你說你去年6、7月人家跟你檢舉你今年3月你提告現在這個抖音還有一個台北故宮交流中心的帳號你現在去跟他對話他會毀你欸"},{"start":10243.26,"end":10243.64,"text":"這個報告還沒有結案"},{"start":10271.291,"end":10289.477,"text":"沒有結案 結案報告都上傳了網路上都看得到 沒有結案你知道你們這個報告結論是什麼嗎第一個 我不曉得你們去這個跟故宮有什麼關係啦好 去研究南非南非怎麼樣去了解中國的全球秩序第二 你們知不知道你們參加這個會議之後結論是什麼"},{"start":10291.117,"end":10316.609,"text":"結論是說中國對於南非比較少用文化啦所以我們可以用文化去跟南非交流去鞏固我們友邦所以你們故宮故宮的工作到底是保存國保研究還是抗中保台啊跟委員報告你們怎麼會參加這種會議然後做出這樣的結論跟委員報告故宮也是搞抗中保台喔這是一個參與那一次會議的一個報告並不是所有的研究的報告我就是講一個新的結論嘛"},{"start":10318.086,"end":10319.607,"text":"不要去搞這些有的沒有的謝謝"},{"start":10349.551,"end":10353.853,"text":"好 謝謝葉元之委員 院長請回 我們現在休息5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10664.56,"end":10665.421,"text":"我們現在繼續開會接下來請洪孟開委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請蕭院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":10686.82,"end":10715.518,"text":"黃委員長院長故宮明年要迎來百歲的院慶但520將近到目前為止院長續任或是新人選都還不知道院長會不會覺得心裡不踏實或是有不尊重的感覺基本上來講這是一個憲政的常態就是說那個所有的部會首長都出來了只剩故宮院長還沒有出來這算常態以前有啊以前前兩天都有啊"},{"start":10716.215,"end":10721.138,"text":"所以到目前為止你也沒有受到不管是新任卓榮泰院長的一個約詢或是賴清德總統的約詢"},{"start":10746.424,"end":10765.379,"text":"沒有我們現在也看到組織重整會不會降級故宮應不應該因為今天我們看到百年故宮部會級的博物館本席以及我們所有愛護文物的人大家也都非常關心院長你的態度是什麼故宮需要被降級嗎"},{"start":10767.336,"end":10792.851,"text":"故宮博物院在整個全世界博物館的範例裡面的話就是院長是部長級就館長是部長級的室內可成員的話在世界上其實是少見但是也是因為故宮博物院有特殊的一個政治因緣關係所以他做這樣的一個組織設計那未來的話組織設計怎麼處理的話基本上來講的話是行政院的前者"},{"start":10793.615,"end":10818.044,"text":"也是尊重別人 不是 院長你今天在故宮博物院一天你應該是捍衛故宮博物院的尊嚴捍衛故宮博物院的主持你的主張是什麼我個人已經表達了以目前來講的話故宮保留現狀的話對現階段的發展來講的話是比較好所以不應該被降級尊重行政院的決定院長"},{"start":10820.127,"end":10842.954,"text":"過去您也擔任過很多的職務其實本席剛剛看你被很多委員來質詢本席心裡是五味雜陳啊為什麼我相信你也不會縱容你也不會允許說我們有策展人員在翠玉白菜旁邊簽字嘛這不是什麼小瑕疵或嚴重疏失一句話就可以講完了你的專業在哪裡為什麼現在左閃右閃左支右觸"},{"start":10849.079,"end":10864.262,"text":"是不是心有掛礙啊是不是心裡還在想說我現在講這句話會不會惹上層不高興不要政治正確用專業判斷可以嗎什麼小瑕疵什麼小失誤不能做的事情就不能做不是嗎國寶之所以為國寶就在於他的不可逆性"},{"start":10871.944,"end":10895.262,"text":"歷史的長留那麼久我們現在有幸在2024年還可以看到一千多年前兩千多年前的文物或是說幾百年前的文物這都是屬於人類的珍寶一個不小心如果今天摔壞了破碎了那個是後代子孫都沒有辦法看到的不是嗎那哪有什麼小書師大書師嚴重書師專業是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":10901.564,"end":10926.711,"text":"我想社會對故宮博物院不只是委員對故宮是零工人這個我非常非常的了解來院長我只是問這件事情是3月的事情對不對那到今天是5月8號5月7號還有人丟出來給委員爆料再對照現在故宮博物院院長職務還沒有確認本席不經懷疑"},{"start":10928.706,"end":10957.318,"text":"是不是內部有派系鬥爭有人虎視眈眈院長的位置所以故意在你今天有專案報告的時候前一天把3月的事情拿出來讓委員輪流來砲轟你有沒有這樣的狀況我想這是一個恰巧吧那當然不排除有這樣的一個猜測不排除有這樣的猜測所以你的位置坐不是很穩喔還是有什麼樣的勢力正虎視眈眈"},{"start":10960.051,"end":10981.903,"text":"在故宮博物院基本上來講是沒有秘密所有故宮博物院的內部的狀況的話基本上來講的話都會有人對外透露這個不是今天才開始這個是行之有年的一個工廠文化所以代表院長你也自己寶寶心裡苦寶寶不說"},{"start":10983.41,"end":11007.16,"text":"是不是在過去這一段時間其實坐這個位置也坐得如履薄冰戰戰兢兢啊我們盡量盡量在同仁兢兢業業的一個工作環境下然後把故宮整個說法來啦院長我們不要再打官話這樣子所以現在看起來就是民進黨內部還有在全力鬥爭院長這個位置還沒有坐實坐穩"},{"start":11008.641,"end":11031.597,"text":"那現在又有爆發這樣的狀況但是對於我們民意代表要求只有一點今天不管誰在這位置上面對於國保的保護就是玲瓏人就那麼簡單所以我現在請教我現在請教在這件3月10號發生的事情裡面還有包括說有外人進出庫房那後面事後有沒有進行盤點清查跟檢視庫房裡面的文件"},{"start":11032.496,"end":11032.956,"text":"對內部人員的懲處跟對廠商的懲處是什麼?"},{"start":11049.541,"end":11070.976,"text":"廠商的懲處的話,我們會一合一來裁判。現在他們還沒有處理出來。那另外的話,就是有關考機會的懲處的話,目前就是我們主席和副院長把他退回,請南院的話重新釐清,然後再重新送懲處的名單。"},{"start":11072.017,"end":11091.193,"text":"所以到目前為止過了多久的時間啊?兩個事情一個事情的話是庫房一個事情的話是吹白菜的事情吹白菜的話是因為台南美術館的話他才把那個整個結案報告送過來那目前的話他們還沒有簽到好什麼時候會出來?下個禮拜"},{"start":11093.953,"end":11094.033,"text":"主席"},{"start":11112.318,"end":11137.329,"text":"另外3月的時候有故宮的修復計畫說明會大家看到也有點嘩然是說我們要在故宮的大門口設定玻璃亭那當然羅浮宮、大英博物館也有現代化新舊融合的設計我們也看到了但是很多人講是說以依照文資法故宮不是應該早辦說明會、公聽會並且把相關的資料通知居民來參與"},{"start":11138.55,"end":11147.954,"text":"但故宮怎麼一開始在網路公告只有圖片沒有說明後來要求才揭露部分的簡報檔那我們想請教到底是在搞神秘還是說現在"},{"start":11149.44,"end":11169.794,"text":"你要大開大立大破大合針對百年故宮來做相關的一個淨土設計那不是更應該現在就說服跟讓大家知道讓大家來參與嗎跟委員報告就是工程的花包跟設計概念然後審查跟進入到實際設計細部設計他是一個流程"},{"start":11173.897,"end":11174.517,"text":"現在到哪一個進度?"},{"start":11193.243,"end":11197.106,"text":"那第二次的修正計畫什麼時候會進行?"},{"start":11214.368,"end":11234.903,"text":"這個基本上來講的話就要變成是他們調整了,因為原來的話再怎麼規劃的話也都是...院長,我們現在溝通一個觀念啦,我說因為今天出來大家媒體滑爛是說為什麼會在大門口的部分,其實對故宮來講這個百年設計,你還在做這個玻璃罩,然後你變成是放任廠商去做設計計畫,這樣也有點奇怪啊。"},{"start":11237.365,"end":11266.121,"text":"這是之前22年招標的時候有4個廠商4個廠商裡面有1個廠商設計1個玻璃入口院長我建議不要補充錢他竊貧中嫌院長這樣子感覺是對本席跟立院不尊重對不起我知道我知道你不是有心的對但是不要讓媒體拍到這畫面不好對不起鄭重道歉就說4家因為我比12344家裡面有一家竊貧中嫌我現在連比都不敢比"},{"start":11267.022,"end":11267.042,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11290.586,"end":11315.592,"text":"本席今天質疑的地方在哪裡在於是說3月的時候媒體報導出來說華蘭大家會覺得是說怎麼會突然間這樣的一個方向那還有更重要的是我退一萬步講阿會不會之後人走茶樑如果說假設520真的先開名單不是你那會不會之後下一個院長來又有下一個院長的想法完全又變更設計"},{"start":11317.335,"end":11329.064,"text":"那到最後國人就不知道說我的百年故宮到底你的形狀長什麼樣那最合理的方式不是應該是先匯集大家的意見至少有一個一致的方向我們再來做"},{"start":11331.805,"end":11358.666,"text":"我想這個部分的話剛委員指教的是就是說我們已經把所有的名譽跟媒體報導給那個設計團隊設計團隊什麼時候會再第二次出來設計團隊要送出去之前在送到文資審議之前的話我們會再召開說明會甚至邀請建築界的專家寫者然後來共同參與然後就是說這個時程是什麼時候送出去的時候"},{"start":11360.287,"end":11386.432,"text":"你還會再召開說明會還會再召集專家學者那這個時程會在什麼時候下一任院長所以你是準備要走人了是不是沒有啦沒有啦基本上來講以現在的時程安排的話就差不多也要到五月之後五月嘛五月就是這個月所以這個月月底前會再召開說明會五月之後啊對啊五月之後就是大概六月份我們來召開"},{"start":11388.001,"end":11404.932,"text":"院長我們輕鬆歸輕鬆但是不能把方便當隨便我知道我現在在問的是時程就是說你剛剛已經講了我們會在第二次的設計變更之前再開說明會以及找專家學者那這個時程會預定在什麼時候工程是我們那個文物院長是"},{"start":11406.804,"end":11424.813,"text":"對你講出來的事情媒體會關注媒體關注會報導有興趣的民眾說明會大家就會去參與你現在要的是說明會大家來參與而不是說你今天偷偷摸摸辦了說明會大家不知道然後之後出來之後大家在華萊你再講說有啊五月辦過說明會不是這樣嘛對我不是要過場我要的是"},{"start":11428.675,"end":11455.54,"text":"院長告訴我們既然3月出來大家有華蘭那現在你也講了我們會從善如流再召開說明會那說明會什麼時候我們就告訴大家我們比如6月會有說明會有興趣的媒體拜託大家來說明會了解一下來跟委員報告一下那我們資料已經在4月底送文化部文資會了那接下來我們會在6月6月"},{"start":11457.945,"end":11461.155,"text":"6月則一天開說明會是不是?"},{"start":11463.915,"end":11486.597,"text":"審查那個當然我這樣說就是說我不能建業值錢其實委員所以沒有說明會不是委員也可以安排一個故宮考察然後我們現在不是叫我們安排考察是說明會6月會辦我再質詢你你剛剛講出有說明會現在又說沒有了說明會6月會辦所以根本沒有說明會是不是6月會辦"},{"start":11487.458,"end":11512.866,"text":"六月會辦跟同仁協調了六月我們會辦一個說明會邀請建築界的專業人員來好六月會辦針對故宮大門口的這一個工程的說明會那也請時間地點確認之後也發函給本席以及我們教育文化委員會的委員並且廣為周知希望能夠邀請大家有興趣關心的民眾可以共同參與這樣可以嗎可以"},{"start":11515.993,"end":11544.825,"text":"最後不好意思主席30秒518這次翠玉白菜是因為518博物館節那我們南院有辦活動那北院呢北院的國際博物館日也有辦活動但我剛剛上來之前查我們官網並沒有看到任何一個518的活動那還有明年是故宮百年百歲的願慶我們現在策劃特殊的展覽有沒有"},{"start":11546.06,"end":11572.254,"text":"有一個故宮100PLUS的一個完整的計畫好 請在今天下班前給本席就是針對518博物館日北院的活動以及明年百歲院慶的相關計畫好不好我們一起共同來慶祝至少這個是臺灣的大事我們中華民國的大事也是世界的大事我們都希望故宮把它辦好謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪木文凱委員"},{"start":11577.202,"end":11577.222,"text":"楊瓊英議員"},{"start":11602.855,"end":11621.667,"text":"到目前為止沒得到證據到民間的慣例的話當過教授就會叫教授當過院長的話就會叫院長不要開玩笑這不是開玩笑這是國會他不在學校學校也不可以開玩笑你當什麼職務稱呼什麼怎麼會有一個"},{"start":11626.91,"end":11642.925,"text":"國保的守護者這樣子的回答呢?你認為你剛剛的回答適當嗎?你今天早上到現在已經道歉幾次了我覺得非常訝異我非常的敬重你因為我知道你壓力非常的大內鬥的情況是否讓你語無倫次?是不是?一個教授不應當如此的"},{"start":11653.905,"end":11658.406,"text":"接下來本席要請教當一個院長是不是就是一個國保的守護者"},{"start":11659.441,"end":11683.975,"text":"當然是當然是OK恢復正常接下來本席要再請教故宮的位階是非常重要本席都是全力以赴全國的民眾我相信也都全力以赴因為國寶是難能可貴我們要怎麼保護它所以故宮它是一個非常重要的一個機構是不是"},{"start":11685.536,"end":11707.475,"text":"故宮當然是我們最重要台灣最重要的一個博物館機構故宮的位階當然不能下降對不對不能降級對不對故宮的所有同仁我想也是一直有這樣的一個想法但你擔任目前你擔任院長你的想法呢故宮不能降級是不是"},{"start":11708.618,"end":11733.576,"text":"我也認為故宮目前維持形態的話是比較平順針對本題問題提問不能降級對不對對我們國家來講他是一個正面的所以故宮不能降級因為一個人如果心裡沒文化就等於沒靈魂啊對不對故宮的位階不能下降嘛對不對不能降級認不認同"},{"start":11736.611,"end":11747.657,"text":"我剛剛已經說明過了就是故宮的同仁包括我自己都是這樣的想法對你就直接回答院長你壓力不用大你不能壓力大到口無倫次啊對不對所以接下來本席要請教5月4號的策立營沒有唯獨沒有我們故宮院長這怎麼回事啊這個政府不重視我們的國保嗎"},{"start":11767.405,"end":11768.807,"text":"我們要面對的是大家舉國歡騰的百歲願慶"},{"start":11787.441,"end":11796.408,"text":"百歲願慶因為我們從1965年開始開館到現在好不容易百年這是國家舉騰歡喜的"},{"start":11798.24,"end":11826.462,"text":"我們準備好了嗎?目前的進度有按照你們可內控的範圍在進行嗎?我們已經有一個規劃但是這個計畫沒有盡早提出是因為它牽涉到預算的邊內金融的預算才會送出去如果預算還沒有送出去的話我們就去先是說我們要做哪些事情的話基本上來講所以本席請教就是在你目前你們的進度當中還是你們可控的範圍內嗎?當然"},{"start":11830.004,"end":11838.649,"text":"所以本席再請教為什麼大家都公布了只有故宮的院長不公布是因為這個政府認為故宮不重要嗎?"},{"start":11840.031,"end":11840.291,"text":"所以院長請問"},{"start":11870.213,"end":11891.525,"text":"本席也藉道檢舉你們翠玉白菜等15件國寶藉道南部去展出那這個紙筆距離國寶不到3公分3公分是多寬啊這樣子的行為對於我們的國寶人民的希望你認為你們問題出在哪裡雖然你極速的下降"},{"start":11896.954,"end":11898.915,"text":"本席不希望這樣國際的笑話被笑話"},{"start":11926.758,"end":11932.181,"text":"我們台灣這麼尊嚴這麼有氣質這麼有文化保護我們的國寶怎麼可以如此呢從3月到現在今天5月8號你要怎麼處置你要好好的處置因為這不能成為國際的笑話"},{"start":11950.543,"end":11952.985,"text":"故宮難管外包清潔人員上傳我們的庫房事件有沒有這回事啊"},{"start":11972.41,"end":11998.4,"text":"這個不是擅闖而是說故宮在清空庫房然後製作新的櫃架然後清潔人員進去清掃那當然沒有錯就是說所有的程序要進庫的人都要簽報到院長這邊簽報到首長這邊同意但是廠商私自換了兩個同仁那因為戴口罩的關係所以同仁沒有化解這的確是廠商的一個惡意的行為這個我們會用採購法相關的條文來處理"},{"start":12001.741,"end":12003.825,"text":"哇 院長你這麼回答內部鬥爭 外部不知所措那我們故宮的國寶要怎麼辦"},{"start":12011.997,"end":12039.222,"text":"所有的程序都沒有照SOP流程那個清空的庫房基本上來講一般人是沒有辦法進入到文物的庫房那為什麼呢外包的清潔人員就可以進便宜形式啊不是便宜形式他本來就是在施工之後進去清掃這個是既定的一個程序而且清掃還要分兩次對啊但是他沒有照SOP流程啊院長你也不知道啊"},{"start":12040.421,"end":12043.626,"text":"把制度制定好 除了制定制度 而且要管控執行力嘛 對不對"},{"start":12053.91,"end":12079.795,"text":"所以下個禮拜我會請我們長官然後到南院去開一個檢討會議就是說把南院的相關的法規制度請他們重新盤點然後就是盤點請你們預計要怎麼應對請書面資料給本席最後一個議題1965年開館到目前我們的建物管線設施老舊甚至屋頂會漏水"},{"start":12080.655,"end":12096.233,"text":"你有沒有去盤點到底我們相關的工程你預計要怎麼樣去完成你的抗爭能力要怎麼樣去應對你多久定期去巡視你的文物跟室內各空間的設備"},{"start":12098.796,"end":12106.059,"text":"師傅是不是就請院長用書面來跟楊委員報告好不好因為時間已經超過3分鐘了不好意思所以也請院長針對本席最後的議題請你詳時書面資料給本席我們一定要作為國保的守護者這個論點你同意吧同意故宮責無旁貸好謝謝楊瓊瑛委員院長請回我們接下來請吳思堯委員"},{"start":12135.401,"end":12135.481,"text":"有請院長"},{"start":12144.854,"end":12166.732,"text":"故宮同仁大家辛苦久違了我現在在政治位比較重的司法法治委員會可以回來跟故宮的朋友一起談談文化我覺得非常的氣質優雅了起來那我想故宮要百年了我們不只要當台灣的國寶我們要當世界文化的瑰寶所以我就很快的切入下面的面向下一頁"},{"start":12170.355,"end":12190.184,"text":"院長如果是女性故宮就不再是國寶我想沒有人會認同這個說法沒有人會認同下一頁那我也去做了功課世界知名的博物館確實女性擔任館長真的寥寥無幾大都會博物館11任館長都是男性"},{"start":12191.044,"end":12214.696,"text":"北京故宮九任都是男性而香港新誕生的故宮一任也是男性大英博物館呢23任的館長就只有一位女性是1999年到2001年所以故宮能不能夠走在世界的最前面呢我們常常會自比我們是世界四大博物館我們一定會跟羅浮宮比"},{"start":12215.732,"end":12241.288,"text":"羅浮宮2021年迎來首位女館長那個時候在國際的文化圈是傳為美式喔這個新任的這個Laurence Descartes她過去當奧賽的美術館的館長她也當過局員的館長在職的期間讓兩個博物館都是訪客人數創下新高所以當馬克宏總統任命她為羅浮宮新任館長在2021年的時候真的世界"},{"start":12242.048,"end":12249.763,"text":"一片的肯定打破了性別的天花板在重要的博物館領域那台灣呢下一頁"},{"start":12250.956,"end":12279.258,"text":"其實我也去做了我們11任的館長迄今其實台灣非常的進步我們有三任女性館長 對不對從林曼麗從周公新到馮明珠三位傑出的館長所以在博物館的兩性平權上台灣領先國際台灣走在最前面所以性別意識絕對在台灣是一個高度被highlight被promote的議題"},{"start":12280.279,"end":12282.521,"text":"當然我們還是在任命上以專業為主但我做了這些整理就是要說告訴大家故宮是一個能夠讓專業發聲能夠讓性別的平衡跟性別的平等被實踐的偉大的博物館我們要繼續下去下一頁"},{"start":12300.015,"end":12318.628,"text":"那現在故宮的一級主管喔男性有9位女性有7位其實43%已經是很高了但如果我也要鼓勵我們廣大的女性夥伴們在故宮我們的把著只要夠優秀大家都有機會擔任主管管我們繼續為女性來加油喝彩喔下一頁好說到下一個主題"},{"start":12326.42,"end":12353.813,"text":"有沒有去中國化呢我真的覺得非常的訝異我長期投入故宮的新故宮計畫我也跟長期台灣的建築美學界是最常在對話的一個立法委員當我赫然發現媒體在炒作故宮因為要設計了一個玻璃亭就被炒作成中國化我赫然發現他是有時間點上的怪異跟巧合"},{"start":12354.953,"end":12358.519,"text":"就當時間來到關鍵的4月7號到4月十幾號也就是馬英九前總統訪問中國的時候"},{"start":12367.372,"end":12390.346,"text":"故宮因為增設了要設計規劃這個玻璃亭就由媒體開始說是去中國化這是台灣的媒體但我也赫然發現在中國的媒體也隔海的唱和說民進黨當局搞去中國化要給台北的故宮毀容不如把文物還給中國吧"},{"start":12393.052,"end":12407.086,"text":"我在這裡點出來的是這是一個有政治操作的意圖博物館就回到博物館的專業建築就回到建築的專業文資修復就回到文資修復的專業下一頁"},{"start":12409.672,"end":12420.72,"text":"這個是故宮整建方案他事實上故宮在2020年被列定為歷史建築所以所有的修復增建需要送文資審查嘛而事實上這個玻璃亭建築團隊也已經下降了他的高度顏色也做了調和但我要再次強調我只是陳述事實他做過調整跟折衷但是可不可以通過文資審議"},{"start":12436.93,"end":12459.498,"text":"讓文資會去決定我無權置會只是我要陳述在這個過程當中他需要有文資審查一關而且剛剛院長講得非常好這是一個經程序公開得標的廠商他有廠商履約的合約保障再加文資審查的必要程序未來有"},{"start":12460.658,"end":12465.021,"text":"公聽會非常好事實上我也要說我們開了四次公聽會不是嗎2022年開了兩場2024年的3月1號2號都開了公聽會針對建築的新設計不是嗎我們開了四場的公聽會不是沒有公聽會因為我長期關心故宮新故宮計畫所以我來這裡多做一些陳述喔下一頁"},{"start":12487.745,"end":12495.158,"text":"我最後要說世界各大博物館我吳思瑤因為我是個建築迷我是個藝術迷我都去過了"},{"start":12496.502,"end":12524.424,"text":"因為世界知名的博物館它都是適用沿用過去的老建築也許是宮殿也許是其他的功能所以因應新時代的需要它必須要擴建而且很重要的是改變它的出入動線故宮這次的玻璃亭也是符合新故宮計畫的兩個目標對不對?增加展場面積以及要把出入口的動線改得更好是不是我們這次新故宮計畫的原始目的嗎?是不是?"},{"start":12525.865,"end":12545.83,"text":"所以羅浮宮1989年被運名改了金字塔我們看2000年大英博物館Norman Forster也是用一個玻璃窮頂我們來看看2002年日本的安藤忠雄的東京國際兒童圖書館也是出入口的動線必要改了一個玻璃亭乃至於青木村2020年我也剛剛去回來"},{"start":12548.251,"end":12548.631,"text":"我分享這些案例我是要說"},{"start":12565.683,"end":12591.175,"text":"在貝育銘改羅浮宮的時候沒有人說這是在去法國化在Norman Forster在改大英博物館的時候英國人沒有說這是在去英國化就連最新的日本從安藤忠雄到青木淳在改重要的博物館的動線的門口玻璃的設計的時候也沒有人說這在去日本化所以請讓建築回到專業這是我的請求我也做這樣子的論述"},{"start":12592.936,"end":12593.136,"text":"王洪威委員蕭院長"},{"start":12616.624,"end":12630.127,"text":"院長好我要特別講對於未來的整個的意向的改變也就是有關入口庭的部分我覺得我們的同仁有任何的意見這都是應該被尊重的而不應該又去貼親中的標籤或者是跟中共和聲呼應所以我覺得對剛才吳思堯委員的講話我要予以完全的抗議"},{"start":12643.07,"end":12668.378,"text":"那另外就是今天我想很多的議題都是談到就是我們的翠玉白菜出借給北美館然後所發生的爭議台南美術館對不起台南美術館沒錯台南美術館那因為剛才其實很多的委員都特別提到這件事情的嚴重性但是呢因為時間關係我要就教院長的問題是"},{"start":12670.639,"end":12689.328,"text":"過去我們的翠玉白菜有出借的歷史第一個出借給日本因為日本很喜歡故宮的我們的相關的國寶另外在2013年也就是我們故宮南院開幕之前曾經出借給高雄美術館"},{"start":12690.829,"end":12704.111,"text":"另外就是曾經在台中舉辦花博的時候出借給花博而這次出借給台南美術館我不曉得他的目的是什麼他的考慮是什麼院長我給你看"},{"start":12705.45,"end":12727.249,"text":"臺南美術館到故宮南院你開車一個小時就到了如果你坐高鐵一站就到了所以如果過去不管是我們的翠玉白菜在故宮南院因為非常受歡迎一再的延長那是因為南部的民眾他們喜歡希望能夠多看看我認為很合理"},{"start":12728.65,"end":12734.414,"text":"或者過去因為沒有故宮南院那麼在高雄的美術館我覺得也可以接受但是他不以頻率過長可是像在故宮南院展得好好的請問一下他到台南美術館展出的目的是什麼"},{"start":12748.104,"end":12765.619,"text":"以我來看就是去幫台南美術館去衝它的流量而已啊衝它的人數的這個數量而已所以我要講的是如果我們的翠玉白菜變成青菜一樣隨時的可以到附近的一個美術館來展出的話那我請問一下同樣的道理新北市他們現在正在蓋美術館"},{"start":12772.364,"end":12779.37,"text":"好 等到它蓋好的時候是不是臺北市也應該到新北市呢新北市到臺北市車程也是這麼遠啊是不是也是要同樣比照辦理或者蘭陽美術館他們也有很不錯的環境那麼是不是我們蘭陽美術館他們就是沒有來申請啊"},{"start":12790.8,"end":12805.969,"text":"所以我要講的是我們是不是可以針對我們的國版的初屆應該要有一套制度而不是今天來申請就可以去初屆結果今天就造成今天的這樣的狀況院長你同意嗎我們初屆的目的到底是什麼如果要給南部的民眾來看在故宮南院不可以嗎"},{"start":12819.96,"end":12834.882,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個是新故宮計畫裡面的第三項紙計畫然後這個紙計畫的名稱叫國寶出優趣所以他有一個作業辦法讓相關的博物館可以來申請那當然沒有說院長"},{"start":12835.783,"end":12850.87,"text":"世界主要的博物館會把自己的國寶隨便的出借嗎我的意思就是說如果要到南部故宮南院絕對足夠如果你們按照這樣的方式全台灣各縣市離島更應該來申請啊"},{"start":12853.371,"end":12857.693,"text":"你們借不借呢?所以我在這邊因為時間有限我希望你們重新的去檢討這個辦法否則的話以後新北我一定建議他們新北趕快來借為什麼台南可以借新北不能借呢?蘭陽美術館應該立刻來借啊"},{"start":12872.458,"end":12887.104,"text":"所以這樣的方式不對所以我跟你講當時在台中的部分當時大家就說是不是要搶救林佳龍的選情就叫花博花博到底跟我們的國寶有什麼關係那時候去出界幫他衝流量"},{"start":12887.944,"end":12895.467,"text":"因為人數要增加那台南美術館也是一樣啊所以我真的覺得這個辦法真的要有問題另外趕快補充一下剛討論很多我們的入口印象因為在史博館出現這樣的爭議兩邊的意見相持不下這代表什麼呢代表溝通不足"},{"start":12909.853,"end":12912.016,"text":"因為連當時去參加審議的學者他都沒有想到是把那個使博物館的正門是打動的所以基本上當你們這個入口庭大家可能也有很多的建議還沒有做"},{"start":12927.256,"end":12954.973,"text":"所以我建議你們在這個部分應該要充分的去溝通不要像史博館一樣現在已經不可逆除非你再把它棄回去它也不是原來的建物了所以不管史博館也好尤其故宮更是洞見觀瞻世界四大博物館之一我希望你們能夠做更充分的溝通不要等到做完了之後又出現社會這麼大的一個爭議好不好"},{"start":12958.198,"end":12972.991,"text":"發言報告故宮博物院結論會審慎的來處理好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝王洪文委員 院長請回我們接下來請黃婕委員黃婕 黃婕委員不在我們請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝主席 有請院長好 有請院長"},{"start":12987.592,"end":13010.262,"text":"好 院長好 院長今天的專題主題報告叫做回首百年放眼未來故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討明年故宮要100年了理論上我覺得今天這個專報內容應該要涵蓋非常多面性甚至可以做一個歷史的總回顧但我們可以看到整個專題的報告只有15頁"},{"start":13012.483,"end":13041.01,"text":"目錄卻只有前言故宮回應當代的社會責任具體的成果未來展望本席就簡單用幾句話來統整一下前言就是故宮官網裡面的成立嚴格及定位故宮回應當代社會責任具體的成果內容林立卻很鬆散反而讓人家覺得更找不到故宮的定位未來展望的內容則是非常短有提到希望用文化軟實力立足全球"},{"start":13042.05,"end":13070.289,"text":"讓國立故宮博物院成為世界的故宮但具體要怎麼做沒有規劃沒有頭緒這份報告很像小學生前一天臨時要寫功課忘記寫了當天急救章向老師交代一下不知道是不是因為520要準備了我們現在不想認真去規劃520之後的事情總而言之整份報告我看起來空洞沒有什麼實質的內容有待改進那我也想跟你請問幾個問題"},{"start":13072.871,"end":13086.598,"text":"2022年有這樣子的一個新聞報導放在故宮就是國寶嗎專家證實翠玉白菜不是那我想請問一下到底現在翠玉白菜是不是什麼國寶人氣國寶"},{"start":13095.737,"end":13114.167,"text":"人氣國寶啦齁在官網上我記得他的官網的這一個行業啊有稍微寫到他是國寶會萃或者是相關的國寶典藏在這個網頁上所以在民眾的觀感就覺得這是國家的寶貝國寶"},{"start":13115.908,"end":13141.242,"text":"那當然你們把它列為文物啦那這又讓我們再看到這個2022年相關的一個報導裡面都有提到有所謂的膠黃釉綠彩龍紋碗被打破那當時的故宮院長說這個是文物不是國寶那當然文物跟國寶有所謂的這個差別"},{"start":13142.202,"end":13169.047,"text":"那我們但是對於國人的認定上來說放在故宮都是非常非常重要的東西那今天又看到我們有這樣子的一個新聞我想今天你應該不只一位了啦相信很多的立委都非常關切這件事情我都覺得非常非常的讓我感嘆啦覺得說在這樣子的一個畫面真的是讓所有的國人都為之震撼"},{"start":13170.487,"end":13185.602,"text":"您可以想像國人現在的觀感嗎?院長一再強調這是一個嚴重的錯誤不能因為一小小的疏忽的話然後就是把故宮的形象毀一旦"},{"start":13186.428,"end":13214.468,"text":"我想現在不僅僅我們要面對的是相關人等的一個處分而已我們要的是未來不要再發生我們要的是未來不允許我們更希望每一個人慎重的面對每一個故宮裡面的文物甚至是國寶我想星期一本期在地方有行程我們有重大的考察"},{"start":13215.408,"end":13217.17,"text":"我先想請問一下我的選區有國立美術館您知道嗎"},{"start":13242.118,"end":13269.021,"text":"我原來就是國美館的館長是是是有沒有機會借給國美館展覽一下南美館可以國美館可不可以依照現在的故宮出遊區的辦法基本上是可以是可以的齁也希望您如果台中有需求能夠就近照顧台中啦但是現在我們看到的這一個新聞事件典藏人員竟然直接在翠玉白菜旁邊簽名我想這個"},{"start":13270.902,"end":13299.271,"text":"企務處長吳處長有說這個清點的程序照標準作業流程我想這些都是說辭今天我也不再探究這個說辭的內容我想我還是回到剛剛那句話故宮點手的是中華民國的文物資產尤其歷史文化傳承應該受到最嚴格最嚴格的一個監督我們看到的現在這樣的畫面我們希望未來"},{"start":13300.171,"end":13320.18,"text":"您要大刀闊斧的將這些SOP將這些未來的流程都把它定定的就猶如我們現在應該要克尊職守的一個憲法一樣的重要把這些規則、流程把它當成是要進入"},{"start":13321.397,"end":13348.058,"text":"我們故宮每一個人員應該要克尊的一個憲法來保護著我們所有所有的文物還有國寶兩三年前故宮打破了三項文物前院長蘇貞昌說要把過去落伍的保存文化檢查方法好好改革才對得起整個文物的保存不是要改革嗎改革到哪裡了"},{"start":13349.338,"end":13369.634,"text":"故宮把文物送出去的策展已經不是第一次了5月1號才要定SOP我想這件事情還是民眾在這個粉絲專頁爆料才可以知道這件事我們民眾真的對於這件事情都非常非常的膽戰心驚都非常愛惜國寶"},{"start":13371.255,"end":13389.002,"text":"今天您會在這邊稍微會排這樣子的一個專題我想也有相對應的一個希望重視我們回首所有故宮的復出跟所有的歷史到現在我們看到這個事件的發生我想整個"},{"start":13390.242,"end":13405.429,"text":"故宮不僅僅是在未來的展望我們更希望故宮應該要好好想想到底發生了什麼問題我們不要只是怪基層員工我們也應該要好好想想到底這些有沒有好好監督"},{"start":13406.109,"end":13423.087,"text":"流程改革這些長官到底誰應該要負責任難道這一次只是單純的典藏人員處罰完還是處長處罰完我想這部分都應該不是我們希望看到所有所有的面向"},{"start":13424.349,"end":13443.669,"text":"不是看到處罰就好啦我們要看到的是未來不會再發生未來能夠讓大家真的膽戰心驚去把這些文物出展的一個過程把它給完成好不好我們希望故宮從以前到現在已經歷清了三次的大清典民國40到43年"},{"start":13445.171,"end":13457.344,"text":"民國七十八到八十年民國九十七到一百零一年現在雖然之前都有二十年一次的全院大新年但鑒於故宮近年來對文物的頻頻不小心我認為是應該籌組一個小組盤點所有文物的狀況來做一個大"},{"start":13464.751,"end":13492.538,"text":"清點你們的一個SOP還有這些狀況好好的統整之後我們來做一個專案小組來如何規劃當然時間現在也非常的不足我要對你做一些相關的其他詢問但是我要講的是人力不足也是故宮現在我們看到的一個問題我們現在看到故宮僅有16人肩負維護70萬件的一個文物責任其實真的很不容易"},{"start":13493.427,"end":13500.416,"text":"我們這一點也要幫故宮講話但我們更希望人力不足到底現在該怎麼辦欲缺不補"},{"start":13501.55,"end":13526.375,"text":"根據檢察院的調查故宮檢任以上的部分職缺出缺兩年至四年後才可以進行人員的增補代表外界的餘力並非空虛來風我們希望原額授勸於人事行政總署故宮身為世界級的博物館擔負國內博物館的領頭羊之使命如何持續挹注優秀的人才確保國際的博物館地位與水準我希望這一週內能夠檢討報告給本辦公室院長可以嗎"},{"start":13531.498,"end":13548.45,"text":"可以跟委員報告一下故宮會記起教訓以後不會再換另外的話那個標準作業流程本來就有只是散落在過處所以我5月1號是把它整合到一個通則上面未來我們會出版一個手冊所以這個部分的話我們會積極來處理"},{"start":13550.722,"end":13578.741,"text":"謝謝你謝謝院長其實我都知道一定會有作業流程但是問題就是你的作業流程還會出現這個問題我覺得是落實的問題那為什麼他不落實那是不是相對應的大家並不重視我想不管同仁的專業素養信念的話要再加強我想這個事件我們不需要再看到了好不好尤其對我們來說對不起每一件文物都是中華民國的國寶謝謝"},{"start":13584.153,"end":13586.494,"text":"蘿婷薇委員林倩琦委員蕭院長"},{"start":13608.844,"end":13635.265,"text":"林院長好我首先很感謝上一回我們在質詢故宮的時候我們講到故宮的百年計畫院裡面的同仁也很早就在4月初就給我相關的計畫內容非常感謝相較於其他有一些部會經常漏掉我想院裡面在這個部分的"},{"start":13636.886,"end":13663.381,"text":"的這個作為其實還蠻有效力的那我今天就針對幾點來跟院長這邊做一個瞭解跟溝通那當然早上很多委員講到一些事也都是一些重點那當然大家遲遲一直沒有等到這個院長的任命那當然對我而言就朋友來講我是常常還能夠看到你我會蠻高興的那但是在這個文化上我們總會覺得這個"},{"start":13666.143,"end":13687.179,"text":"前幾天行政院辦了一個新兵訓練我看了一下故宮沒有那沒有可能就會引起大家很大的一個想法究竟是因為故宮太easy了所以在質詢的這個部分可能也不需要再去做一些強化"},{"start":13688.3,"end":13703.929,"text":"還是說那未來會有像剛才其他一些委員的一些懷疑跟質疑那是我最不想見到的就是談到故宮組織定位的這個未接的這個問題所以我很期待不會是像後者"},{"start":13704.749,"end":13705.39,"text":"前面的訓練及任命"},{"start":13721.624,"end":13746.864,"text":"那故宮相較來講是比較不是那麼政治敏感度的一個內閣成員的一個公佈那相較比較獨立也不是一件壞事那我很期待就像您講的那您這個專業的一個回應確實是代表了如果真的是這樣子的話那我們文化還有希望那如果是本席剛才的一些想像或者是猜測或者是今天企劃委員問的這些問題那"},{"start":13749.346,"end":13767.631,"text":"文化上就會讓我非常的擔心所以就謝謝貴院然後也對於這個院長的任命我們還是期待賴準總統就職所剩下的日期不多那我們期待能夠早些知道那當然我們也很希望能夠繼續看到院長"},{"start":13769.141,"end":13796.749,"text":"好那另外呢今天的起點就是我對於這個任命的這個部分希望能夠趕快然後另外就是組織的這個部分也期待雖然不是院長這邊能夠做的那剛才幾位委員講的降級萬萬不行那翠玉白菜的事我們就不想再講了不過我想跟你講個就是就朋友間的一個發生的這個狀況啦這個翠玉白菜確實很重要因為我"},{"start":13797.569,"end":13819.948,"text":"今年有兩位波蘭的朋友來到台灣然後他們一定要去故宮我說故宮好好那我們有機會帶你去故宮那你有沒有最期待的想要看什麼他說我們要看CabbageCabbage什麼Cabbage講到最後原來是Jet Cabbage就我們的翠玉白菜所以當然很多委員這邊關心說翠玉白菜的這個前幾天有人在那邊簽名那很擔心他的這個"},{"start":13821.294,"end":13821.414,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13843.824,"end":13865.443,"text":"大家雖然都關心這一點我這邊有一個比較很實質的大層面的問題我要跟您這邊就教就是在目前我們看起來好像還是兩岸有一點兵凶戰危的氛圍下我想請教一下我們過去八國聯軍的時代我們知道這些海權強國對於文化還有國寶"},{"start":13868.425,"end":13868.445,"text":"致詢"},{"start":13889.163,"end":13897.709,"text":"請問故宮的文物現在怎麼處理?怎麼藏好?或者是怎麼分散到世界各地跟我們同等級的一些博物館做一個交流?"},{"start":13899.291,"end":13917.142,"text":"原則上故宮的文物送到國外的話除了正常的交流之外的話我們並沒有這個現象所以故宮我自己講還是台灣所有的博物館裡面對文物保存最專業而且庫房的安全性最高的一個地方"},{"start":13918.413,"end":13932.552,"text":"那我有機會知道這樣一個保存計劃嗎因為我突然有點擔心那院裡面有機會來跟我說明或就是讓我放心嗎因為最近我常常聽到有人說這是國安問題國安問題然後資料不提供"},{"start":13934.714,"end":13953.843,"text":"本身也有接到這樣一些訊息那我當然希望能夠有一個這個庫房能夠在這樣一個狀況下能夠確保我們文物的安全假設在兵兇戰危的情況下我們故宮博物院最重要的就是裡面的館藏那裡面的國寶跟文物那如果"},{"start":13954.663,"end":13979.887,"text":"這不是選項但是假設發生那是不是這個時候我要提醒一下這個院裡面我不知道有沒有以前的計畫那如果沒有可能這個選項也要稍微做一下討論跟委員報告一下因為故宮博物院現在是國家重要的安全設施所以國土辦的話是把門列管隨時都會來做一個檢測所以這個部分的話我想"},{"start":13980.567,"end":14003.931,"text":"故宮的文物未來都是在山洞或是在地下的庫房,它的安全性相對是比較高的。好,那如果能夠提供相關的資料給我,就麻煩提供。那如果有困難,那就麻煩院裡面我們找個時間我來了解一下,因為這我們不希望發生,但是或許這個可能性是有的。"},{"start":14005.572,"end":14027.722,"text":"那今天有關於這個故宮的部分剛才也有很多人談到你們這個文化資產雖然歷史建築也經過幾次的一個開會然後在這個整個大計畫裡面建築的部分也有一些整修那許多人也做了一個提醒有關於玻璃屋的這件事那因為前段時間有去史博館那前面的那個無障礙空間的這個玻璃"},{"start":14029.644,"end":14050.456,"text":"雖然不是玻璃屋不過也是玻璃穿透可是擋住牆面的這樣一個工程也是被很多的建築師這邊有意見所以我在這邊還是提醒因為裡面雖然有一些法規那但是在法規的容許的範圍裡面那我們應該要做到公共性的最大化"},{"start":14050.956,"end":14052.317,"text":"國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席"},{"start":14072.907,"end":14095.145,"text":"希望能夠讓某些委員已經跟你們要函那是不是本席這邊也可以有一個說明會的一個相關的函文那讓我知道這個時間那我們也可以至少讓公眾知道那能夠讓故宮之後的這個修復比較不會有先前的問題但是我覺得都不是館長的問題啦都是這個大家承接那出現了這樣一個狀況"},{"start":14097.086,"end":14097.206,"text":"指導委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14117.377,"end":14143.67,"text":"兒童暨青年事務委員會警官諮詢會還有博物館兒童青年議題那這些策展當然是一定啦那是不是可以請貴院這邊提供給我這幾個委員會開會的次數然後還有他們提的一些建議那當然如果這個真的是很有用的話那有取代掉這個指導委員會的功能而且真的是有效度的話那我們當然樂見"},{"start":14144.81,"end":14158.318,"text":"只是我從這個字面上就想說那個好像除了策展警官那其他幾個有點比較覺得比較新穎那是不是就請提供這樣一個資訊給我然後讓我們來討論一下這個指導委員會跟這些個別的委員會中間的一些差異"},{"start":14165.502,"end":14194.241,"text":"最重要的就是我覺得現在的館長擔負的責任都很大那我們知道博物館就以蕭院長這樣一個層級那如果都還這麼無力的話其實我們的文化包括行政包括立法我們都要很努力的來維護然後推動所以我今天就只能這樣子最後就是這個指導委員會所以請院裡面再多做一些討論"},{"start":14195.663,"end":14209.198,"text":"最後 院長你這個階段雖然你不一定會覺得你搞不好很想繼續跟我打乒乓球不一定會我期待你能夠接受如果被留任"},{"start":14210.739,"end":14231.476,"text":"你或許有自己某一些規劃但是您在故宮的這段時間可不可以最後給我們一個您在這段時間想要給公眾的一個價值的建議也就是說您在這個位置上那期待我們對故宮的一個認識然後故宮的一個定位跟故宮對整個文化上的價值"},{"start":14232.883,"end":14247.901,"text":"大家其實覺得說我的講話太籠統可是故宮博物院的保藏的確是人類共同的一個文化資產所以故宮博物院包括我自己包括所有成員都會守護這些文物哪怕是國寶重要 大家暱稱國寶"},{"start":14249.262,"end":14275.724,"text":"作為一個重要使命所以過去大家討論的部分我們都會依照委員的意見的話我們來重新省思那另外的話有關成立專業委員會的部分其實我成立警官委員會的目的就是未來故宮博物院不管南北院在做改建或者警官處理的時候都有一個專業的單位可以來執行不會說像昭京的狀況發生"},{"start":14278.53,"end":14305.632,"text":"好 那謝謝院長最後還是這句話祝福院長也祝福故宮博物院跟我們所有的國立的博物館謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝林倩琦委員好 院長請回接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請王美惠委員王美惠 王美惠委員不在接下來我們請范雲委員"},{"start":14311.506,"end":14314.667,"text":"院長武安,今天想跟您請教的也是故宮的責任關於經濟弱勢族群的文化禁用權本來是要先問您有錢立委針對"},{"start":14335.211,"end":14354.768,"text":"故宮說女性出任院長故宮就不是國寶了那我有看到秀寶委員有問過嘛您已經回應了當然不是這樣但是我想請問蕭院長就是很高興您公開表達對性別平等的支持那您知道我們過去有幾位女性擔任過院長嗎"},{"start":14356.174,"end":14384.792,"text":"十一位院長中間有三位擔任過院長而且都是非常傑出的女性對沒錯其實我們十一位裡面因為連同你已經有三位了我們算了一下數學已經超過四分之一只是未達三分之一所以這個前立委這種公開性別歧視的希望以後院長或故宮有機會就要告訴大家其實我們有就是超過四分之一未達三分之一是"},{"start":14385.512,"end":14399.284,"text":"女性的故宮院長請大家不要忽略他們不分黨派對於故宮的貢獻我想這部分也跟院長很高興您知道我們的確是有超過1⁴還沒到1⁳的女性院長"},{"start":14403.227,"end":14413.63,"text":"今天我想針對您的報告裡面都有提到多元跟文化的平權想請問院長對經濟弱勢群體我們看了一下故宮的門票政策發現這裡面有針對年齡的針對身心障礙者針對學生還有一些國際博物館等榮譽會員這些可是沒有針對經濟弱勢群體的照顧"},{"start":14430.914,"end":14444.944,"text":"那不知道院長覺得現在這樣子您覺得足夠了嗎跟委員報告就是說現行的年齡未滿18歲或是學生那65歲以上很可惜65歲的話是平日免費"},{"start":14445.845,"end":14447.746,"text":"本國學生的話其實我們包括國外的學生持學生證都可以"},{"start":14462.41,"end":14485.027,"text":"那當然對於經濟弱勢族群的話故宮有一個海灣故宮百萬鞋子由故宮然後南苑的話也有那個故宮的一個方案那基本上我們用自己的一點預算然後再跟外幕的經會我們邀請高中職以下的學生弱勢偏鄉"},{"start":14485.868,"end":14496.335,"text":"然後可以由故宮來知乎會用然後邀請他們到故宮然後甚至相關的那個管所去參訪這個部分的話我們用專案的方式來辦理"},{"start":14497.705,"end":14517.341,"text":"對,用專案當然就是這也是一種方法可是是不是最好的方法我覺得我們就是做一個國際的博物館的比較那我們辦公室去研究了一下一些主要的博物館以法國的羅浮宮跟奧賽博物館你在它的網站上就看得非常清楚羅浮宮還有奧賽博物館針對"},{"start":14521.684,"end":14533.868,"text":"臺業者其實就可以免費看這兩個博物館對於法國領最低生活保障金者也都可以免費看因為經濟上的貧窮其實就是"},{"start":14536.829,"end":14536.889,"text":"西班牙"},{"start":14554.564,"end":14579.853,"text":"還有我們辦公室有查到的還有像希臘非常有名的雅典的未成博物館這我去看過非常值得進去看那都是有支持這些經濟的弱勢群體那您剛剛講到的某一些那我們辦公室有看到故宮一年其實有五天是免費可是你看一下德國的柏林他有博物館日"},{"start":14580.533,"end":14596.628,"text":"是所有的德國的70個博物館都參加了他們每個月就有一天是免費全面開放所以我想針對這個文化平權的事情雖然我們故宮有一些了"},{"start":14597.468,"end":14598.008,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":14612.153,"end":14613.554,"text":"我辦公室還幫你查了我說我們要看看是不是人太多"},{"start":14630.546,"end":14654.471,"text":"後來發現其實你們假日一百一十二年非假日平均是來三千六百六十四人北部假日六千三那如果你開放就是免費的時候其實一月一號是八千人元宵節超過六千五月十八九月二七五千多人只有十月十號國慶日一萬三千多人所以其實這個"},{"start":14656.571,"end":14674.136,"text":"事實上是OK的好像並沒有這麼難那反而大家不好記你要我記說哪一天故宮是全面免費我們還記不得那像德國他是在有一個星期天每月第一個星期天全面免費比起來我覺得故宮可以考量一下"},{"start":14674.616,"end":14675.096,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":14700.478,"end":14724.692,"text":"這個我也常常想要提的英國事實上是全面免費只要是國家的出錢的他只有長社展長社展全面免費只有特展才需要付費那我們可以想想博物館的成本當中跟收入當中那這個門票到底佔的比重是多少那如何在一個博物館可以運作的情況下讓更多人"},{"start":14726.553,"end":14753.081,"text":"能夠一而再的再三的進去學習了解我們的國寶我想這個是我希望故宮可以做到的那我今天提的就先從一個我覺得可以跟我們剛講的奧賽博物館羅浮宮看齊的我們是不是先針對經濟弱勢族群提出門票的優惠政策好不好那是不是你們可以去做一個評估然後給我們一個報告呢"},{"start":14754.821,"end":14779.084,"text":"跟委員簡單報告就是因為故宮有規會法的關係規會法的關係我剛講連那個65歲的老人我們希望說他假日來都免費基本上來講財政部都不同意所以我們只能用專案的方式只能用專案的方式然後就是說透過另外的基金所以您說是財政部不允許你這麼做嗎對因為我們門票收入要繳庫的"},{"start":14780.545,"end":14787.55,"text":"門票收入佔你們的總收入的百分之多少?佔你們的總營運成本百分之多少?應該是說你們的總成本裡面門票收入佔的成本是多少?"},{"start":14797.393,"end":14815.792,"text":"總成本?總成本倒沒有算因為故宮的總成本沒有辦法算因為如果算年度預算的話故宮總成本不能算嗎?年度預算可以算但是總成本不能算因為總成本的話如果把文入都算成總成本年度的成本年度的預算可以算年度預算你們現在收入在你們的年度預算裡面百分之多少?"},{"start":14822.486,"end":14824.467,"text":"我的印象過去的話大概占到八成啊,現在的話是占三成。"},{"start":14846.556,"end":14861.302,"text":"請你算一下這概念我經營一個故宮可是因為門票使用率沒有到這麼高那跟據說為什麼大英博物館這麼做為什麼德國的博物館這麼做那為什麼別人針對中低收入這麼做一定有他的考量"},{"start":14862.49,"end":14885.492,"text":"報告委員 報告委員我是主席是主任我姓林我們113年度其實我們因為有一個新故宮計畫的整括件所以每一年度有關支出的部分是都不一定的那在113的部分我們是稅出是26億那扣掉新故宮計畫變13億"},{"start":14887.759,"end":14889.541,"text":"十三億的話那我們去年的門票收入多少?"},{"start":14901.935,"end":14902.775,"text":"二十六億來講的話那其實比較起來的話"},{"start":14919.329,"end":14919.95,"text":"十三億是包括新故宮工建計劃不是經常性的預算"},{"start":14937.801,"end":14938.001,"text":"財政部規定"},{"start":14956.684,"end":14971.707,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝范雲委員 院長請回接下來我們請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在我們請邱志偉委員邱志偉邱志偉委員不在我們請林楚英委員"},{"start":14972.328,"end":14974.149,"text":"林柱英委員蘇清泉委員徐欣穎委員鄭振潔委員"},{"start":14992.202,"end":15016.063,"text":"請蔡毅與委員不在我們今天登記質詢均已發言完畢另外有林楚瑩委員陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":15017.544,"end":15029.481,"text":"關於委員對於要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"15887","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15887","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68535675eb71f9bc6ae819ba3698dbd896e3be8d109af184be4564b895b3141708b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、\n（一）審查行政院函請審議「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「再生醫療發展法草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（五）審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（六）審查委員王正旭等20人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（七）審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（八）審查委員陳菁徽等19人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（九）審查委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n二、\n（一）審查行政院函請審議「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n（五）審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n（六）審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（七）審查委員王正旭等20人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（八）審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（九）審查委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n【一(一)、(八)、(九)及二(一)、(九)，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】\n【本次會議逐條討論】\n【5月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-08","start_time":"2024-05-08T08:30:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-08T17:20:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":31741,"委員發言時間":"08:30:59 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案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療"},{"start":1811.249,"end":1817.073,"text":"這個講話你知道嗎?因為我們今天很大風暴,那個你要解釋的話報告完以後,這個大概就結束了。謝謝。"},{"start":1857.482,"end":1858.564,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":1871.001,"end":1884.191,"text":"好,出席委員已逐法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年5月2日星期四9時至13時19分地點群賢羅801會議室出席委員陳昭芝等15人列席委員林德福等19人"},{"start":1894.119,"end":1913.214,"text":"列席官員衛生福利部部長薛瑞元等相關人員主席王兆吉委員玉敏報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項審查委員王玉敏等19人委員蘇清泉等28人國民黨黨團分別擬具全民健康保險法第62條條文修正草案等3案"},{"start":1913.874,"end":1933.25,"text":"本次會議經委員蘇清泉並代表國民黨黨團委員王玉敏說明提案指去並由衛生福利部部長說明後委員陳昭芝等21人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員黃厚吉及各相關主管等即席答覆委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆"},{"start":1937.193,"end":1947.325,"text":"委員令要求期限者從其所定。本次會議由委員陳金輝、廖偉祥及王玉敏等3人提出第62條條文修正動議。決議一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員王玉敏等19人擬具全民健康保險法第62條條文修正草案等3案審查完均。"},{"start":1954.713,"end":1958.398,"text":"全案均保留含修正動議一案附帶決議三項送院會處理並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論時由王兆琪委員玉敏補充說明需交由黨團協商。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1970.227,"end":1993.84,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有。好。那議事錄確定本次會議議程為審查行政院函請審議委員台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具再生醫療法草案等6案以及繼續審查委員分別擬具再生醫療法草案等3案。二、審查行政院函請審議委員台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具"},{"start":1997.722,"end":2025.592,"text":"再生醫療治濟條例草案等6案。」以及繼續審查委員分別擬具:「再生醫療治濟條例草案等3案。」好,那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員。陳昭芝委員。王振旭委員。林月琴委員。陳金輝委員。好,那今天與會的官員有衛福部薛瑞元部長。"},{"start":2027.734,"end":2040.328,"text":"醫事司劉月平司長、食品藥物管理署吳秀美署長、中央健康保險署龐一鳴副署長、法規會陳信成參事、"},{"start":2042.93,"end":2069.202,"text":"國家發展委員會產業發展處上午是副處長陳瓊華副處長那下午是由林俊儒專門委員國家科學及技術委員會生命科學研究發展處楊台鴻處長經濟部產業技術司周崇斌副司長還有檢任記者戴建成檢任記者"},{"start":2071.525,"end":2086.683,"text":"產業發展署李嘉峰組長．法務部汪南軍參事．數位發展部數位產業署胡貝蒂副署長公平交易委員會法律事務處齊雪莉專門委員"},{"start":2091.357,"end":2093.778,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":2119.904,"end":2141.125,"text":"謝謝主席、各位委員還有各位衛福部的官員還有在座大家早。針對於再生醫療法的部分本院委員包括我在內一共有20位委員針對再生醫療系利用基因、細胞及其原生物用以治療、修護"},{"start":2142.126,"end":2148.237,"text":"或替代人體細胞、組織及器官其範圍包含再生醫療製劑及再生醫療技術"},{"start":2152.168,"end":2171.059,"text":"在目前新興生物醫學科技迅速發展的時代,再生醫療相關領域的技術與智能已逐漸成熟,並加速擴大應用到臨床醫學。建於再生醫療之特質性、特殊性及治療之複雜性,應就醫療機構執行再生醫療的相關管理機制、制定專法來加以規範,"},{"start":2179.904,"end":2198.603,"text":"以順應當前醫療發展的趨勢並符合實務管理的需求為了確保再生醫療的品質、安全以及有效性維護病人接受治療的權益對於再生醫療之執行包括醫療機構得執行再生醫療的範疇再生醫療組織細胞來源管理"},{"start":2203.248,"end":2222.727,"text":"人體試驗與研究及監督與預防等事項予以規範所以要供這個醫療機構及其他相關業者有所遵循能依據再生醫療法草案是否有當敬請公決這是有關於再生醫療法提案的部分"},{"start":2224.248,"end":2248.742,"text":"有關於再生醫療治劑提案的相關說明包括本院王振旭等二）將再生醫療細將基因細胞及其衍生物用於人體構造或功能的重建或修復以達到治療或預防人類疾病目的其範圍包括再生醫療技術及再生治劑再生醫療治劑目前再生醫療技術西醫療法"},{"start":2253.064,"end":2273.731,"text":"及其第62條第二項授權定定之特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法管理而再生醫療治劑規列為生物藥品以藥事法管理特有相關審查基準等規範為再生醫療之形態"},{"start":2275.712,"end":2300.749,"text":"技術新營現行管理架構恐難以完全滿足再生醫療需求及促進再生醫療之發展,為推動我國再生醫療產業發展,分別制定再生醫療執行之管理規範,再生醫療法及再生醫療治劑之管理規範,再生醫療治劑條例有其必要性,建立再生醫療治劑之成分益質性,"},{"start":2301.63,"end":2330.629,"text":"自成特殊性及治療複雜性風險管制有別於化學或生物製劑現行藥事法相關規範無法完全涵蓋或一體適用參著國際間對再生醫療製劑之立法管理會兼顧我國再生醫療產業發展趨勢建構符合我國實務管理之架構針對再生醫療製劑之組織細胞提供者合適性評估提供者執行同意與招募廣告病人接受先進治療權益及上市後"},{"start":2331.61,"end":2360.371,"text":"流向管理強化等規範予以規範明確提供業者遵循從事細胞及基因之商品化規格化製成加工達到標準而且一致化之再生醫療製劑規範使民眾得以及早接受再生醫療製劑治療會促進再生醫療法之蓬勃發展願擬具再生醫療製劑條例草案作為要施法之特別法健全對再生醫療製劑之管理事為有當敬請公決"},{"start":2365.58,"end":2369.814,"text":"謝謝王建旭委員的說明。那請陳昭芝委員有要代表臺灣民眾黨說明嗎?"},{"start":2376.573,"end":2376.833,"text":"謝衣鳯等21人擬具"},{"start":2405.06,"end":2429.282,"text":"第一個要件是要安全。安全然後品質才是療效。那這些都需要這個科學佐證。那因為顧及這個費用比較高昂。所以在倫理學要病人安全跟這個醫學倫理的部分也要有所顧及。那本黨就僅這幾個基本原則提出這個修正草案。那等一下在審查法案的時候會提出這個說明。謝謝主席。謝謝。"},{"start":2430.794,"end":2433.509,"text":"好謝謝陳昭芝委員的說明那接下來請陳金輝委員說明"},{"start":2442.25,"end":2462.124,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員大家早安台灣的醫事人員還有實驗室人才的精良和專業是舉世聞名的所以近年來呢隨著細胞治療技術的進展還有再生醫療技術的突飛猛進特別台灣在組織修復還有慢性疾病的治療上展現了巨大的潛力"},{"start":2462.904,"end":2463.504,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":2481.869,"end":2497.147,"text":"然而由於我國在再生醫療方面的法規尚未完善許多病患被迫前往國外尋求治療面臨著巨大的風險和不確定性這不僅僅是一場身體和疾病的抗戰更是對心理和經濟狀況的雙重折磨"},{"start":2499.449,"end":2527.867,"text":"民國107年衛福部公告特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法這是一個進步但仍然不夠我們需要更全面的法規和監管機制來保障再生醫療的安全性品質還有有效性因此本席提案制定再生醫療專法不僅僅是為了順應醫療科技的進步更是為了保護那些在病痛中尋找希望的個案"},{"start":2528.527,"end":2550.012,"text":"我們希望可以儘速趕快通過專法確保每一位需要服務的個案都能夠安全的及時的而且有效的接受到進步的醫療服務協助重新找回他們人生的希望謝謝好謝謝呃陳敬輝委員的說明吼那接下來請衛生福利部薛瑞元部長說明時間10分鐘"},{"start":2561.146,"end":2575.017,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開的全體委員會議本部呈押列席報告深感榮幸"},{"start":2576.639,"end":2594.941,"text":"維護全民的健康,提供國人良好的醫療品質,創造安全的就醫環境,一直都是本部的使命與持續努力的目標。今天藉由這個《再生醫療法草案》及《再生醫療治劑條例草案》提出專案報告,請各位委員不吝指教。"},{"start":2596.142,"end":2614.797,"text":"第一,再生醫療法草案一共有35條,重點如下。第一,確保提供病人安全有效之治療。醫療機構執行再生醫療前應該進行並完成人體試驗以及一些例外的情形。"},{"start":2616.118,"end":2638.234,"text":"以確保醫療機構之執行或細胞之操作具有一定的成熟度及穩定性。」這是在草案的第七條跟第八條。第二,鼓勵再生醫療研究發展,為了促進再生醫療的臨床應用、量能提升,給予獎勵或補助。這是在草案第十條。"},{"start":2639.395,"end":2658.442,"text":"明定醫療機構執行再生醫療的範疇以及執行醫師的資格,那再生醫療的執行是屬於醫療行為,執行場所應以醫療機構為限,且醫療機構應該經中央主管機關核准才可以來執行再生醫療的技術或使用再生醫療的治劑。"},{"start":2660.162,"end":2677.29,"text":"執行再生醫療的醫師應為該疾病相關領域的專科醫師並具備再生醫療相關的知識。這是在草案的第11條到13條。第四,執行細胞操作機構及人員應符合之規範。"},{"start":2679.611,"end":2696.004,"text":"醫療機構可自行或委託再生醫療、生技醫藥公司、其他醫療機構來執行細胞操作。三）該執行細胞操作的機構免依醫藥事法之規定取得藥品製造業的許可執照。"},{"start":2699.091,"end":2719.683,"text":"細胞操作的方法、設施、設備、管制、測試、運銷、操作人員資格與應完成的相關訓練查核許可的申請條件以及其他應遵行的事項另訂辦法來規範之。這是在草案的第14條。第五,執行再生醫療應盡的義務。"},{"start":2723.245,"end":2745.693,"text":"醫療機構如果要執行再生醫療前,應該向病人充分說明所執行之再生醫療風險、效果以及所涉的相關權利義務,經過同意之後使得為之。醫療機構執行再生技術或使用再生製劑,應該製作這個紀錄並保存至少15年,這是在草案的第15條到16條。"},{"start":2748.896,"end":2764.357,"text":"第六,管理組織細胞的來源。細胞操作執行機構以及細胞保存庫應對組織細胞提供者進行合適性判定。有關細胞保存庫的設置"},{"start":2765.758,"end":2782.685,"text":"品質管理及保存費用收取等事項認定辦法予以規範。」這是在草案的第17條到20條。第七,確保再生醫療的品質與安全。為確保再生醫療的安全與品質,並維護民眾及病人的權益,規範得為再生醫療"},{"start":2788.216,"end":2806.366,"text":"組織細胞提供者招募廣告與再生醫療廣告的主體及廣告管理的規定,執行結果的報告,主動通報機制以及救濟措施等等事項,並明定停止或終止執行再生醫療的管制措施。」這是在草案的第21條到27條。"},{"start":2810.306,"end":2830.896,"text":"其次,再生醫療製劑一共有23條,重點如下。有鑒於再生醫療製劑的成分、一直性、製程的特殊性以及治療的複雜性。現行藥事法相關的規範無法完全涵蓋或一體適用。所以委員會我"},{"start":2832.273,"end":2856.298,"text":"為我國的再生醫療產業的整體發展,維護病人接受治療的權益並確保再生醫療製劑的品質、安全性及有效性,擬具了這個再生醫療製劑條例草案,再生醫療製劑管理條例草案,以健全對再生醫療製劑全生命周期的管理,"},{"start":2857.278,"end":2880.855,"text":"本部已研擬再生醫療治劑條例草案,經行政院審查後,在113年4月25日避交答案來審議。委員所提的版本跟行政院版本方向一致,期盼透過本條例草案之立法,健全對再生醫療治劑全生命周期的管理,並促進再生醫療產業之蓬勃發展。"},{"start":2882.896,"end":2899.31,"text":"那兩項的法案與各委員的版本的差異的評估,那已經詳列在本部的書面報告,請各位委員參閱。那本部曾答應各委員的指教及監督,在此敬致謝誠,並請各位委員繼續予以支持。以上。"},{"start":2903.815,"end":2912.324,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報,現在請宣讀提案條文內容,若有修正動議請一併宣讀。"},{"start":2914.454,"end":2938.721,"text":"行政院函請審議再生醫療法草案案。委員邱議瑩等25人擬具再生醫療法草案案。委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具再生醫療發展法草案案。委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具再生醫療法草案案。委員黃秀芳等18人擬具再生醫療法草案案。委員王振旭等20人擬具再生醫療法草案案。台灣民眾黨黨團擬具再生醫療法草案案。委員陳金輝等19人擬具再生醫療法草案案。"},{"start":2942.202,"end":2953.106,"text":"委員楊崇英等25人擬具再生醫療法草案案條文對照表行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案臺灣民眾黨黨團提案委員陳金輝等19人提案委員楊崇英等25人提案名稱再生醫療法草案委員謝衣鳯等19人提案名稱"},{"start":2963.729,"end":2990.639,"text":"再生醫療發展法草案 行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員陳金輝等19人提案委員楊崇英等25人提案第一章總則行政院提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第一條為確保再生醫療之安全品質及有效性維護病人權益普惠國民使用特制定本法"},{"start":2991.679,"end":2995.501,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員楊聰英等25人提案第一條為確保再生醫療之品質安全及有效性維護病人權益普惠國民使用特制定本法委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第一條為確立政府發展再生醫療推動及創新方針運用科技建構研究環境健全人才培育促進產業永續發展"},{"start":3014.429,"end":3035.725,"text":"普及國民安全有效使用提升醫療品質及全民健康特制定本法。」委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第一條為確保再生醫療之品質安全及有效性並維護接受再生醫療病人之權益普惠國民使用特制定本法。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一條為確保再生醫療之安全品質及有效性維護病人權益及醫療倫理普惠國民使用特制定本法。"},{"start":3039.528,"end":3044.174,"text":"行政院提案、委員邱議瑩等25人提案、委員羅廷瑋等21人提案、委員黃秀芳等18人提案、委員王振旭等20人提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案、委員陳金輝等19人提案、委員楊崇英等25人提案。第二條,本法所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部"},{"start":3056.57,"end":3080.56,"text":"再直轄市為直轄市政府、再縣市為縣市政府。」委員謝衣鳯等19人提案。第二條本法之主管機關為衛生福利部本法所定事項涉及各中央目的事業主管機關執掌者各該主管機關應配合辦理。行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員黃秀邦等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員陳金輝等19人提案委員楊崇英等25人提案。第三條"},{"start":3081.42,"end":3107.558,"text":"本法用詞定義如下。一、再生醫療,只利用基因、細胞及其衍生物用以治療、修復或替換人體細胞、組織及器官之製劑或技術。二、再生醫療製劑,以下簡稱再生製劑,只含有基因、細胞及其衍生物供人體使用之製劑。三、再生醫療技術,以下簡稱再生技術,只與人體執行再生醫療之技術,但下列技術不包括在內。一、輸血。"},{"start":3108.359,"end":3136.138,"text":"二、使用血液製劑。三、骨髓造血幹細胞移植。周邊血造血幹細胞移植。四、人工生殖。五、其他經中央主管機關公告之技術。四、再生醫療人體試驗。以下簡稱人體試驗。指教學醫院或經中央主管機關同意之醫療機構以發現或證明再生製劑或再生技術與臨床藥理之作用或疾病治療為目的而對受試者人體所為之研究。五、再生醫療細胞保存庫。"},{"start":3137.099,"end":3159.178,"text":"以下簡稱細胞保存庫只為再生醫療所需保存、處理或提供人體組織、細胞或其衍生物資場所或設施。六、再生醫療生技醫藥公司指生技醫藥產業醫公司法設立研發、製造或受託開發、製造與再生醫療相關製劑或技術之公司。委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第三條,頒發所稱"},{"start":3160.899,"end":3175.153,"text":"所稱再生醫療指利用基因細胞、包氣或其衍生物用於人體構造、功能之重建或修復以達到治療或預防為目的並經中央目的事業主管機關審定之藥品、醫療器材、產品或技術。"},{"start":3176.721,"end":3193.871,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第三條本條例用詞定義如下一、再生醫療自再生醫療發展法所定利用人類自體或一體細胞包氣或基因之再生功能修復或替換人體細胞組織其器官之製劑或技術二、再生醫療製劑以下簡稱再生製劑"},{"start":3196.693,"end":3218.78,"text":"指再生醫療製劑管理條例所定以治療或預防人類疾病為目的所製造且符合下列各目的之一製劑一、對細胞加工製成者二、對人體內含有蟲組基因者三、對細胞加工使之具有組織結構或機能用以移植、修復或重建人類之組織或器官者四、前三目製劑與具有醫療器材屬性之結構材料牽合者"},{"start":3221.961,"end":3236.289,"text":"三、再生醫療技術與人體實行再生醫療之技術但下列技術不包括在內一、輸血二、使用血液製劑三、骨髓造血幹細胞移植周邊血造血幹細胞移植四、人工生殖"},{"start":3236.929,"end":3243.952,"text":"其他經中央主管機關公告之項目 再生醫療臨床試驗以下簡稱臨床試驗指醫療機構或經中央主管機關公告之機構以下並稱臨床試驗機構以發現或證明再生製劑或再生醫療技術與臨床藥理之作用或疾病治療為目的而對受試者人體所為之研究 人體細胞保存庫"},{"start":3258.399,"end":3271.283,"text":"只為再生醫療所需保存、處理或提供人體細胞組織或其衍生物質場所或設施六、生技醫藥公司只生技醫藥產業依公司法設立之研發或製造新藥、高風險醫療器材、再生醫療、精準醫療"},{"start":3274.524,"end":3292.27,"text":"數位醫療及其他策略生技醫藥產品及公司臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條第一款莫具為但不得利用異種異體細胞進行醫療行為第五款具首為再生醫療人體細胞保存庫以下簡稱人體細胞保存庫其與院版同"},{"start":3293.01,"end":3305.845,"text":"行政院提案、委員邱瑩等25人提案、委員羅廷瑋等21人提案、委員黃秀芳等18人提案、委員王振旭等20人提案、委員陳金輝等19人提案、委員楊瓊英等25人提案。第四條,中央主管機關應訂定再生醫療推動計畫並定期檢討修正以推動再生醫療。"},{"start":3310.33,"end":3330.074,"text":"各級主管機關得要求相關機關構、學校、法輪或團體協助前向計畫之推動。委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第4條。主管機關應擬定再生醫療發展政策並每兩年檢討修正報行政院核定作為推動再生醫療發展之政策依據。中央目的事業主管機關應依再生醫療政策訂定具體計畫或擬定法規辦理本法所定事項。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第4條。"},{"start":3335.475,"end":3347.495,"text":"再生醫療制執行應遵守再生醫療倫理規範,其內容由中央主管機關定定之。中央主管機關應擬定再生醫療發展政策及推動計劃,並定期檢討修正,以推動再生醫療。"},{"start":3349.315,"end":3370.344,"text":"各級主管機關得要求相關機關構學校法人或團體協助前項計劃之推動。行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員黃秀邦等18人提案第5條。中央主管機關應組成再生醫療審議會辦理下列再生醫療事項一、發展創新及推動政策之諮詢二、正確知識及觀念宣導之諮詢。三、病人安全及醫療品質提升之諮詢。"},{"start":3371.484,"end":3395.042,"text":"人才培育推動之諮詢五．研究發展及獎勵補助之諮詢審議六．再生製器及再生技術管理之諮詢七．合與再生製器有付款許可之審議八．執行成效評估之諮詢九．其他再生醫療相關事項之諮詢前向審議會任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第五條主管機關應涉再生醫療之議會"},{"start":3396.843,"end":3406.654,"text":"至委員羅桿仁、就學者、專家及機關機構法人或團體代表聘派兼之其任務為下列再生醫療事項之諮詢審議一、發展創新及推動政策二、正確知識及觀念宣導政策三、研究及醫療品質提升四、人才培育推動"},{"start":3413.482,"end":3439.863,"text":"五（相關產業發展政策及獎勵方案。六（再生醫療自治及技術管理。七（成效評估及增進。八（其他再生醫療相關事項,前向委員之名額、產生方式、意識、規範、代表利益之自我揭露及資訊公開等有關事項之辦法由主管機關定之,但任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一。委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第五條,主管機關應召及醫療科技人員、倫理法律等專家設再生醫療之議會。"},{"start":3441.684,"end":3459.396,"text":"社、智、委員、若干人、就學者、專家及機關、機構法人或團體代表聘派兼職並由衛生福利部部長擔任召集人。前向自議會提供下列事項之諮詢或建議一、發展創新及推動政策二、正確知識及觀念宣導政策三、病人安全及醫療品質提升"},{"start":3460.016,"end":3486.425,"text":"人才培育推動、五相關產業研究發展、補助及獎勵方案、六、再生醫療自治及技術管理、七、執行成效評估及增進、八、再生醫療發展法及再生醫療自治條例所授權、辦法及準則之訂定及修正、九、再生醫療應進行安全監視及其安全監督計畫之公告和訂及安全監視情形之公開、十、使用有付款許可自治聘員之救濟措施與費用收取方式、十一、其他中央主管機關所定事項、"},{"start":3487.065,"end":3507.87,"text":"第一項自議會之組成議事利益迴避及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。第一項自議會任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一。委員王正旭等20人提案第五條第一項中央主管機關應組成再生醫療審議會以下簡稱審議會至委員羅桿仁就醫療科技倫理法律及其他與其他相關專業學者專家"},{"start":3510.05,"end":3530.59,"text":"併派兼職由衛生福利部部長或部長就委員中指定一人擔任召集人第二項第五款五研究發展及獎勵補助之諮詢第三項及第四項第一項審議會之組成議事利益迴避及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第一項審議會任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一其餘願反同"},{"start":3532.079,"end":3552.336,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條第一項中央主管機關應組成再生醫療審議會以下簡稱審議會臨聘派醫學藥學倫理法律與其他相關專業學者專家共同組成之由衛生福利部部長或部長就委員中指定一人擔任召集人第二項第九款及第十款如下九一本法第九條執行再生技術之審議時其他再生醫療相關事項之諮詢第三項及第四項如下"},{"start":3557.961,"end":3584.928,"text":"前向審議會委員致明而產生方式意識規範利益迴避及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第一項審議會任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一其餘願反同委員陳金輝等19人提案第五條中央主管機關應組成再生醫療審議會辦理下列再生醫療事項之審議及諮詢一、發展創新及推動政策二、正確知識及觀念宣導三、病人安全及醫療品質提升四、人才培育推動五、研究發展及獎勵補助"},{"start":3585.888,"end":3607.561,"text":"六（再生製劑及再生技術管理。七（何與再生製劑有付款許可。八（執行成效評估。九（其他再生醫療相關事項。前向審議會委員由相關機關代表、醫學、藥學與法律倫理領域之專家學者組成。任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一。委員楊瓊英等25人提案第五條。第一項第五款。五（研究發展及獎勵補助資諮詢其以願反同。"},{"start":3610.243,"end":3624.597,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第6條政府孕育國家財政能力範圍內寬列預算採取必要措施持續確保再生醫療經費符合推行政策所需委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第7條為充實再生之醫療機構學術研究機構學校生技醫藥公司以下簡稱再生機構所需再生醫療人才行政院應指定機關建立再生醫療人才資源發展"},{"start":3635.887,"end":3656.501,"text":"協調整合機制、辦理下列事項﹖一、協調主管機關及各中央目的事業主管機關辦理人才供需調查及推估﹖二、整合人才供需資訊﹖三、訂定人才資源發展計畫﹖四、促進再生機構兼職人才交流﹖五、其他再生醫療人才資源發展之推動事項﹖委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第8條。"},{"start":3658.444,"end":3680.623,"text":"政府因依實際需要、合理分配、益助資源或補助再生機構、充實人才、設施與設備及技術、促進產學國際交流合作共同推動再生醫療事務及措施。主管機關得設立再生醫療基金、辦理再生醫療發展相關事項。基金來源如下。一、違反再生醫療自治管理條例及再生醫療之施行及管理條例收取罰還之部分提撥。"},{"start":3681.644,"end":3700.13,"text":"二）一）再生醫療制計管理條例及再生醫療之施行及管理條例收取之規費,三）受證收入,四）基金之知習收入,五）其他收入,前向基金之用途如下,一）為增進再生醫療技術研究發展所需支出,二）延攬及培訓傑出再生醫療領域人才所需支出,"},{"start":3700.55,"end":3715.836,"text":"三）修正收入指定用途支出。四）辦理第9條各款事項之補助。五）辦理第15條之獎勵。六）管理及總務支出。七）其他有關支出。行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案。第6條中央主管機關德委由其他政府機關購物醫療機構"},{"start":3717.657,"end":3729.671,"text":"學術研究機構學校或法人辦理下列事項必要時得專注設立財團法人為之一、特定細胞提供者之篩選與其細胞之處理保存及提供二、高技術性組織細胞之處理及製造三、總原細胞之蒐集及保存"},{"start":3733.035,"end":3748.696,"text":"四（人體組織細胞提供之招募及推廣五（其他配合政府推動再生醫療相關政策之事項委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員楊瓊英等25人提案第6條第4款如下"},{"start":3749.677,"end":3767.572,"text":"四（人體組織細胞提供之勸募及推廣其予院版同委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第9條主管機關得遵住設置財團法人或委由其他政府機關醫療機構學術研究機構學校或法人辦理下的事項一、特定細胞提供者之篩選及其細胞之處理保存與提供"},{"start":3768.172,"end":3789.183,"text":"二（高技術性細胞組織之處理及製造,三（總原細胞之收集及儲存,四（人體細胞組織提供之勸募及推廣,五（其他配合政府推動再生醫療相關政策之事項,台灣民眾黨黨團提案第6條,第4款如下,四（人體組織細胞提供之勸募及推廣,其以願版同。委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第10條,"},{"start":3789.943,"end":3810.662,"text":"政府應積極協助輔導再生醫療產業即時結合財稅及金融優惠制度提供產業穩健發展培植國內人才及產業鏈促成再生醫療及經濟發展委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第12條政府應規劃國民得及早、合理、公平且安全地使用再生醫療之制度採取必要之制度"},{"start":3811.222,"end":3832.996,"text":"知法制、財政、稅制或其他相關措施。」行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第二章:「再生醫療人體試驗及研究。」委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀剛等18人提案委員王正旭等20人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員楊崇英等25人提案第4章:「再生醫療人體試驗及研究。」"},{"start":3835.748,"end":3858.177,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第7條醫療機構執行再生醫療前除有第8條第一項規定情形外應進行並完成人體試驗。行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第8條醫療機構執行再生技術有下列情形之一者免進行或免完成人體試驗。依治療危及生命或嚴重失能之疾病且國內尚無適當之藥品、醫藥器材或醫療技術"},{"start":3862.259,"end":3888.132,"text":"二、本法施行前醫療機構經中央主管機關核准執行之再生技術,前向第一款之條件申請案例數限制。倫理規範及其他應遵行事項由中央主管機關定之。醫療機構執行第一項第一款再生技術前應主案向中央主管機關申請核准時得為之。醫療機構執行再生技術有第一項第一款情形者免依再生醫療自治條例規定申請藥品許可,正或有付款許可。"},{"start":3888.812,"end":3905.023,"text":"委員邱瑩等25人擬具、委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、委員黃秀邦等18人擬具、委員王振旭等20人擬具、委員台灣民眾黨黨團擬具、委員楊瓊英等25人擬具第18條。醫療機構執行再生醫療前應進行人體試驗,但有下列情形之一者不在此限,因使用取得。"},{"start":3905.923,"end":3932.746,"text":"經中央主管機關核准發給藥品許可證或有付款許可之再生製劑。二）執行議第8條第1項規定經中央主管機關核准之再生技術。三）執行其他經中央主管機關公告之再生醫療。行政院提案第9條。委員王正旭等20人提案第19條。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第19條。委員陳金輝等19人提案第9條。再生醫療研究涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞不得以下列方式為之。一、以人工受精方式製造胚胎。"},{"start":3933.246,"end":3951.473,"text":"二）製造雜交體,三）以其他物種細胞和植入去核之人類卵細胞,四）繁衍研究用胚胎,五）將研究用胚胎植入人類或其他物種之子宮,六）製造或繁衍具有人類生殖細胞之氫核物種,七）其他經中央主管機關公告禁止之材料或研究方式。"},{"start":3952.273,"end":3958.054,"text":"委員邱瑩等25人擬具委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員黃秀芳等18人擬具委員楊瓊瑩等25人擬具第19條第一項之序為如下再生醫療研究涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞除申請中央主管機關核准外不得以下類方式為之第二項如下前項申請之條件程序廢止核准事項變更及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之至於院版第9條同行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第10條"},{"start":3980.638,"end":4007.723,"text":"中央主管機關或中央目的事業主管機關得就再生醫療之研究發展給予獎勵或補助前向獎勵或補助之對象條件申請程序獎勵或補助方式審查基準費值或其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商中央目的事業主管機關定之委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員楊崇英等25人提案第20條與院版第10條同"},{"start":4008.983,"end":4022.807,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第15條政府對於從事再生醫療研究或施行住有公積資再生機構或自然人應編列預算給予必要獎金、獎勵並表揚之,依本法發給之獎金,由主管機關應全責編列預算。以上。"},{"start":4028.317,"end":4047.415,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第三章委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊瑩等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二章再生醫療執行行政院委員"},{"start":4048.736,"end":4059.341,"text":"陳金輝等19人提案第11條委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊瑩等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第7條非醫療機構不得執行再生醫療"},{"start":4064.884,"end":4083.014,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第12條醫療機構執行再生技術或使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑應向中央主管機關申請核准。經核准後並向直轄市縣市主管機關登記。此得為之。"},{"start":4084.255,"end":4108.571,"text":"中央主管機關得就前項之核准,委任所屬機關或委託其他機關構法人團體辦理。第一項再生製劑之指定申請核准之條件與程序,核准效期與展延廢止,核准四項變更、費用審查與收取、退費及其他應遵行四項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":4110.421,"end":4137.753,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員黃秀帆等18人擬具委員王振旭等20人擬具委員楊瓊瑩等25人擬具臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條醫療機構使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術應向中央主管機關申請核准。經核准後並向直轄市縣市主管機關登記。使得為之,取於同行政院提案第十二條第二三項"},{"start":4140.27,"end":4155.168,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員黃秀芳等18人提案第9條。醫療機構執行再生技術有下列情形之一者免依再生醫療制計條例之規定,申請藥品許可證或有付款許可。"},{"start":4157.29,"end":4177.947,"text":"醫療機構為治療危及生命或嚴重失能且國內尚無適當之藥品、醫療器材或醫療技術可資適用之特定病人,得檢據相關文件資料向中央主管機關申請核准使用,未經主管機關一第八條第一項規定指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術,"},{"start":4180.153,"end":4195.011,"text":"醫療機構執行再生技術之人體試驗以證實其安全性及初步療效且於臨床治療得提升治療效益者得向中央主管機關申請核准執行該再生技術"},{"start":4196.112,"end":4212.344,"text":"第二項及第三項申請核准資格條件、證明文件、資料、申請核准之程序、核准效期與展延廢止、核准事項變更及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。醫療機構依前條"},{"start":4214.795,"end":4231.312,"text":"第一項規定申請核准及辦理登記,屬提供不含基因改造或轉植之人類細胞及其衍生物質細胞治療者,其項目由中央主管機關公告之。」委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第九條,"},{"start":4233.194,"end":4256.846,"text":"醫療機構有下列情形之一者得施行再生醫療免醫再生醫療自治管理條例規定申請再生自治許可證或付款許可。依治療危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病且國內尚無適當之醫療或醫療器材。二）經完成第二期臨床試驗證實其安全性及初步療效。"},{"start":4257.867,"end":4286.003,"text":"二）提供不含基因改造或轉植之人類細胞或其包棄之自體細胞治療。前向第三款自體細胞治療項目由中央主管機關公告之委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人提案第九條醫療機構執行再生技術有下列情形之一者免依再生醫療治劑條例規定申請藥品許可證或有付款許可。"},{"start":4286.863,"end":4294.556,"text":"一、治療危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病且國內尚無適當之藥品或醫療器材。二、今"},{"start":4296.463,"end":4317.783,"text":"經執行人體試驗結果,證實其安全性及初步療效。三）提供不含基因改造或轉植之人類細胞及其衍生物質細胞治療。前項第二款應執行人體試驗之其別條件與其他應遵行事項及第三款細胞治療項目由中央主管機關公告之。"},{"start":4318.544,"end":4344.301,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第9條醫療機構為治療危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病且國內尚無適當之藥品而執行再生技術得檢附下列文件向中央主管機關提出申請經審議會審議通過後由中央主管機關核准一傳統治療無效之證明二人體試驗倫理審查委員會核准之證明三治療計畫書"},{"start":4345.942,"end":4356.699,"text":"四、病人同意書五、細胞治療自備場所之證明。前項各款得檢附相關資料之內容由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":4359.198,"end":4384.719,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第13條委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊瑩等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條執行再生醫療之醫師應為該疾病相關領域之專科醫師其資格由中央主管機關公告之行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第14條"},{"start":4387.101,"end":4397.998,"text":"醫療機構執行再生技術有細胞培養、處理及保存以下並稱細胞操作必要者得自行或委託再生醫療生技醫藥公司或醫療機構以下並稱受託機構為之。"},{"start":4402.608,"end":4430.587,"text":"前向執行細胞操作之醫療機構受託機構免醫藥釋法之規定取得藥品製造業許可執照其執行細胞操作因經中央主管機關查核及許可後,使得為之中央主管機關得就前向之查核、許可及其他相關管理事項委任所屬機關或委託其他機關構法人團體辦理第二項醫療機構"},{"start":4432.788,"end":4459.367,"text":"受託機構執行細胞操作之方法設施設備管制措施運銷操作人員資格與應完成之相關訓練查核許可之申請條件與程序核准效期與展延廢止許可事項變更及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員邱議瑩等25人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊瑩等25人提案第11條"},{"start":4461.789,"end":4480.387,"text":"醫療機構執行再生技術由細胞培養、處理及保存以下並稱細胞操作必要者得自行或委託再生醫療生技醫藥公司或醫療機構以下並稱受託機構為之。前項執行細胞操作之機構免疫藥事法規定取得藥品製造業許可執照。"},{"start":4482.739,"end":4492.05,"text":"其執行細胞操作應經中央主管機關查核及許可後史的為之。第三項同行政院提案。第二項執行細胞操作之機構"},{"start":4493.484,"end":4513.661,"text":"其執行之方法、設施、設備、管制措施、運銷、操作人員資格與應完成之相關訓練查核許可之申請條件與程序、核准效期與展延廢止許可事項變更及其他應遵遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":4515.417,"end":4531.716,"text":"醫療法人所設醫療機構或學校法人所設私立學校之附屬醫療機構自行執行第一項規定之細胞操作案操作量、病人數或其他四項達一定規模者"},{"start":4532.777,"end":4551.704,"text":"該法得經其中央目的事業主管機關核准後,依公司法第128條第三項第三款規定發起設立再生醫療生技醫療公司專辦細胞操作業務,前項一定規模之認定基準由中央主管機關公告之。"},{"start":4555.422,"end":4570.006,"text":"第二項,前項執行細胞操作之機構免依藥事法之規定取得藥品製造業許可執照,其執行細胞操作應符合西藥藥品優良製造規範和西藥藥品優良運銷規範及其他"},{"start":4575.888,"end":4599.303,"text":"中央主管機關公告之規定,並經其查核及許可後,使得為之徐一彤委員邱議瑩等25人提案。委員黃秀芳等18人提案第11條醫療機構執行再生技術有細胞培養處理及保存以下並稱細胞操作必要者得委託再生醫療生技醫藥公司或醫療機構以下並稱受託機構為之"},{"start":4602.947,"end":4606.643,"text":"舉同委員邱議瑩等25人提案"},{"start":4608.442,"end":4636.155,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條第二項前項執行細胞操作之機構免疫藥事法之規定取得藥品製造業許可執照其執行細胞操作應符合西藥藥品優良製造規範與西藥藥品優良運銷規範及其他中央主管機關公告之規定並經中央主管機關查核及許可厚實的為之其餘同委員邱議瑩等25人提案"},{"start":4642.406,"end":4665.66,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金威等19人提案第15條委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀帆等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條醫療機構執行再生醫療前應向病人或其法定代理人配偶親屬或關係人說明可能效果與不良反應"},{"start":4666.48,"end":4686.666,"text":"費用、救濟措施及相關必要事項。醫療機構執行再生醫療前應經病人或其法定代理人配偶、親屬或關係人同意。簽具同意書後,使得為之。前項同意書應具備之內容由中央主管機關定之。行政院提案委員陳晶薇等19人提案第16條"},{"start":4689.248,"end":4708.528,"text":"醫療機構使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術應製作記錄至少保存15年,並就中央主管機關指定之項目登錄於中央主管機關建置之資訊系統,但未成年者之記錄至少應保存至其成年後15年。"},{"start":4710.546,"end":4724.113,"text":"前相記錄內容應包括使用或執行之日期、場所、程序、使用之再生之際與執行之再生技術、嚴重不良事件及其他經中央主管機關指定之事項。"},{"start":4725.39,"end":4750.345,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員黃秀芳等18人擬具委員楊瓊瑩等25人擬具臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第13條醫療機構使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術應製作紀錄至少保存15年並就中央主管機關指定之項目登錄於中央主管機關建置之資訊系統第二項同行政院提案第16條第二項"},{"start":4752.408,"end":4776.377,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員王振旭等20人提案第13條醫療機構使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術應製作紀錄至少保存15年但未成年者之紀錄至少應保存至其成年後15年並就中央主管機關指定之項目登錄於中央主管機關建置之資訊系統第二項同行政院提案第16條第二項"},{"start":4778.908,"end":4805.978,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第4章委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第3章再生醫療組織細胞管理行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第17條委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人提案第14條"},{"start":4808.219,"end":4822.619,"text":"醫療機構或受託機構執行細胞操作,除組織細胞取締經中央主管機關許可設置之細胞保存庫者外,應確保人體組織細胞來源提供者之合適性。"},{"start":4824.585,"end":4844.037,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條出人體細胞保存負責等文字不同外取同行政院提案第17條委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第11條再生機構於進行醫療研究及實施時應善盡對生命尊嚴人性倫理之維護義務"},{"start":4846.397,"end":4868.106,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金威等19人提案第18條委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人提案第15條。細胞保存複製設置應經中央主管機關許可其保存人體組織細胞得收取費用並應確保組織細胞來源"},{"start":4872.088,"end":4898.405,"text":"提供者之合適性、前項細胞保存庫設置資格、申請條件與程序保存項目許可效期與展延廢止許可事項變更應具備之設施、設備與人員資格、品質管理費用審查與收取退費、商業運用利益回饋及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。前條及第一項提供"},{"start":4899.286,"end":4926.703,"text":"提供者合適性之判定條件篩選測試項目及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。中央主管機關得就第一項之許可及其他相關管理事項委任所屬機關或委託其他機關構法人團體辦理。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條除第一、二項人體細胞保存庫等文字不同外其餘同行政院提案第18條。"},{"start":4928.615,"end":4931.961,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第19條"},{"start":4935.138,"end":4961.437,"text":"醫療機構或細胞保存庫設置機構取得再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者以有意識能力之成年人為限,但顯有益於特定人口群或未能以其他對象取代者,不在此限。前項之組織細胞應於取得前獲得提供者之書面同意。前項書面同意提供者為胎兒時應得其母書面同意。"},{"start":4962.846,"end":4986.472,"text":"為限制行為人力或受輔助宣告之人時應得其本人及法定代理人或輔助人書面同意,為無行為人力人或受監護宣告之人時應得其法定代理人或監護人書面同意,提供者為無意識人力之成年人為人依前項規定辦理時,"},{"start":4987.552,"end":5002.684,"text":"因案下列順序之人員取得其書面同意,一配偶,二成年子女,三父母,四兄弟姊妹,五祖父母,前向第二款至第五款規定人員所為之書面同意,得以一人為之。"},{"start":5004.145,"end":5030.402,"text":"同意順序之人意識表示不一致時以與無意識人力之成年人同居親屬為先。其同居親屬有二人以上者以連長者為先,無同居親屬者以連長者為先。本條及第20條書面同意之內容得以完整呈現,並於日後取出公查驗者得以電子文件為之。"},{"start":5032.984,"end":5039.007,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秀帆等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人提案第16條。醫療機構或細胞保存庫設置機構取得再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者"},{"start":5048.112,"end":5069.109,"text":"以有意識人力之成年人為限,但顯有益於特定人口群或為人以其他對象取代者,不在此限。前項之組織細胞應於取得前獲得提供者之書面同意。前項書面同意提供者為胎兒時應得其母書面同意,為限制行為人力人,"},{"start":5070.05,"end":5094.233,"text":"獲受輔助宣告之人時應得其本人及法定代理人或輔助人書面同意,為無行為人役人或受監護宣告之人時應得其法定代理人或監護人書面同意,提供者為無醫師人役之成年人為人依前項規定辦理時應按下列順序之人緣取得其書面同意,"},{"start":5095.441,"end":5118.371,"text":"一、配偶二、成年子女三、父母四、兄弟姊妹五、祖父母。請向第二款至第五款規定人員所為之書面同意,得以一人為之。同一順序之人亦是表示不一致時,亦與無意識人力之成年人同居親屬為先。其同居親屬有二人已戰者,以連戰者為先,無同居親屬者,以連戰者為先。"},{"start":5122.436,"end":5136.551,"text":"議員羅廷瑋等21人提案第16條醫療機構或細胞保存庫設置機構取得再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者以有意識能力之成年人為限但為治療疾病且"},{"start":5137.412,"end":5162.91,"text":"且顯有異於特定人口群或未能以其他對象取代者不在此限。」其餘同委員邱議瑩等25人提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條醫療機構或人體細胞保存庫設置機構取得再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者以有意識能力之成年人為限但顯有異於特定人口群或未能以其他"},{"start":5168.393,"end":5196.016,"text":"但顯有異於特定人口群或未能以其他對象取代者除胎兒無行為能力人外不在此限。前項之組織細胞應於取得前獲得提供者之書面同意。第一項書面同意提供者為限制行為能力人或受輔助宣告之人時應得其本人及法定代理人或輔助人書面同意。第一項提供者為受監護宣告之人或無意識能力之成年人時"},{"start":5196.897,"end":5213.133,"text":"以同意時具意識能力者為限,其書面同意有效。」行政院提案委員陳慶輝等19人提案第20條委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員黃旭政等20人委員楊瓊英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":5220.404,"end":5238.277,"text":"委員邱議第17條一前條規定取得同意前應告之下列事項一機構名稱二組織細胞之取得方式可能產生之副作用與併發症發生率與處理方法禁忌限制及其他因"},{"start":5238.917,"end":5253.005,"text":"相關因配合事項 提供者合適性判定條件 剩餘組織、細胞之後續處置或可能之使用範圍 提供行為之補助內容及方法 後續追蹤內容及方式"},{"start":5254.025,"end":5271.237,"text":"七、退出終止及終止之權利。八、取得組織細胞過程發生不良反應之醫療照護補償及處理。九、預期可能衍生之利益及歸屬。十、個人資料保密措施。十一、其他經中央主管機關公告之事項。"},{"start":5272.816,"end":5298.459,"text":"前向同意之告知方式、程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。行政院提案委員陳金威等19人提案第5條監督及救濟委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀帆等18人委員黃振旭等20人委員楊群英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第5章監督及預防"},{"start":5300.003,"end":5310.315,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金威等19人提案第21條,招募再生醫療組織細胞提供者之廣告,以下稱招募廣告。"},{"start":5311.641,"end":5334.99,"text":"除招募再生致濟組織細胞提供者之管告現由藥商為之外以由經核准執行再生醫療之醫療機構或保存組織細胞之細胞保存庫設置機構或受中央主管機關所托辦理第六條第四款招募及推管人體組織細胞提供之其他政府機關機關構醫療機構學術研究機構學校法人"},{"start":5340.532,"end":5355.1,"text":"或捐助設立之財團法人為之違憲。再生醫療之廣告現由經核准執行再生醫療之醫療機構為之。再生致濟廣告依藥事法藥品廣告之規定。"},{"start":5356.181,"end":5381.522,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員王秀芳等18人擬具委員王振旭等20人擬具委員楊瓊瑛等25人提案第21條招募再生醫療組織細胞提供者之廣告以下稱招募廣告除招募再生致濟組織細胞提供者之廣告現由藥商為之外以執行再生醫療之醫療機構或保存組織細胞之細胞保存庫設置機構為之違憲"},{"start":5386.085,"end":5402.233,"text":"執行再生醫療之廣告現由醫療機構為之,再生致濟廣告依藥事法藥品廣告之規定。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十一條,莊木再生醫療組織細胞提供者之廣告,以下稱莊木廣告,除莊木再生致濟"},{"start":5403.013,"end":5429.787,"text":"致濟組織細胞提供者之廣告現由藥商為之外以執行再生醫療之醫療機構或保存組織細胞之人體細胞保存庫設置機構為之違憲取於同委員邱議瑩等25人提案。行政院提案委員陳金威等19人提案第22條招募廣告及再生醫療廣告以下並稱廣告不得就"},{"start":5432.538,"end":5460.097,"text":"醫療效能有誇大、不實或無科學實證之標示宣傳,前向廣告廣告者應於刊播前將其內容、刊播方式、刊播文件及影音錄製之內容向中央主管機關建置之資訊系統登錄。經中央主管機關或其委任委託之機關構或法人核准委託傳播業者刊播並應提具核准文件後,使得為之。"},{"start":5460.757,"end":5484.796,"text":"看播期間未經核准不得變更原核准廣告內容或看播方式,直轄市縣市主管機關發現廣告內容有違反第一項或前項規定時應立即停止看播並限其改善,藉其未改善者應禁止其繼續看播,並通知前項之中央主管機關、機關構或法人廢止其核准。"},{"start":5486.584,"end":5503.712,"text":"第一項廣告得看播與不得看播之文字、言詞、圖畫或其其他內容、招募對象、看播方式、看播地點及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。第八條第一項第一款之再生技術不得廣告。"},{"start":5504.755,"end":5520.046,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員黃秀帆等18人擬具委員王振旭等20人擬具委員楊瓊英等25人擬具臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第22條。週末廣告及再生醫療廣告以下並稱廣告不得就醫療效能有誇大不實"},{"start":5520.766,"end":5522.087,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5547.32,"end":5552.614,"text":"應令立即停止康撥並限其改善,藉其為改善者應廢止核准。」"},{"start":5554.386,"end":5577.285,"text":"第一項廣告得看播與不得看播之文字、言詞、圖畫或內容、招募對象、看播方式、地點及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第23條傳播業者不得看播未經核准與核准事項不符以廢止核准禁令立即停止看播或"},{"start":5578.046,"end":5596.326,"text":"經禁止繼續刊播之廣告。傳播業者接受委託刊播廣告,應自廣告之日起六個月內保存委託刊播廣告之內容,委託刊播機構名稱、地址、電話及前條第二項之合總文件影本資料。"},{"start":5597.307,"end":5607.898,"text":"委託勘剝者為醫療機構者並保存開業執照字號。主管機關要求提供前項文件資料時,傳播業者不得規避、妨礙或拒絕。"},{"start":5610.171,"end":5629.162,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員王秀帆等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第23條傳播業者不得看播以廢止或禁令立即停止看播並限期改善而尚未改善之廣告第二項同行政院提案"},{"start":5630.183,"end":5652.343,"text":"中央主管機關要求提供前項文件資料時,傳播業者不得規避、妨礙或拒絕。行政院提案委員陳金威等19人提案第24條。醫療機構執行第8條第1項及第12條第1項再生技術者,應於每年度中了後6個月內或中央主管機關通知之期限內提出結果報告。前項報告內容"},{"start":5653.624,"end":5681.018,"text":"因包括案例數效果不良事件及其他中央主管機關之事項中央主管機關應定期公開第一項報告統計之醫療品質資訊。委員邱議瑩等25人委員王秀芳等18人委員楊瓊英等25人提案第24條醫療機構執行第9條再生技術者應於每年度終了後6個月內或中央主管機關通知之期限內提出結果報告。其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":5682.299,"end":5700.496,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第24條醫療機構施行第9條再生醫療者應於每年度中養後3個月內或中央主管機關通知之期限內提出結果報告。前項報告內容應包括案例數、效果、不良事件及其他中央主管機關指定之事項。"},{"start":5701.437,"end":5724.591,"text":"其格式由中央主管機關定之。中央主管機關應定期公開醫療機構第一項報告之統計結果。委員王振旭等20人提案。第24條,醫療機構執行第8條及第9條再生技術者應於每年度終了後6個月內或中央主管機關通知之期限內提出結果報告區域同行政院提案。"},{"start":5726.963,"end":5751.803,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秋帆等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊秋英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第25條醫療機構使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術發生嚴重不良反應時應通報中央主管機關其通報之期限方式內容及其他應遵行之事項"},{"start":5753.064,"end":5774.117,"text":"由中央主管機關定之委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第14條製造輸入與販賣再生醫療製劑及對病人提供再生醫療製劑及施行再生醫療技術者因實施必要措施保障使用病人之權益。行政院提案委員陳清輝等19人提案第26條"},{"start":5776.178,"end":5801.616,"text":"醫療機構有下列影響病人權益安全情形之一者中央主管機關得令其停止或終止執行再生醫療之全部或一部並公告之一違反第八條第二項中央主管機關公告應遵行之事項或違依第十二條第一項規定經中央主管機關核准之內容執行再生醫療二不良事件發生案例數或嚴重度顯有異常"},{"start":5804.418,"end":5828.185,"text":"三、未依前條前段規定進行通報。四、執行細胞操作未符合第14條第4項鎖定辦法之規定。五、其他影響病人權益安全之情勢。醫療機構自行停止或終止經第12條第1項規定核准之再生醫療全部或一部者"},{"start":5829.352,"end":5837.755,"text":"因事先續名理由向中央主管機關申請同意。且而向中指執行再生醫療之醫療機構應於中央主管機關鎖定期限內檢據內容包括組織細胞檢體及執行記錄之後續處理計劃書報中央主管機關核定,於核定後應依後續處理計劃書執行。"},{"start":5854.4,"end":5861.488,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秋帆等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第26條"},{"start":5867.455,"end":5884.937,"text":"醫療機構有下列影響病人權益安全情形之一者中央主管機關得令其停止或終止執行再生醫療之全部或一部並公告之為依第八條第一項規定經中央主管機關核准之內容執行再生醫療"},{"start":5886.078,"end":5902.063,"text":"第二至五款同行政院提案醫療機構自行停止或終止經依第八條第一項規定核准之再生醫療全部或一部者因事先續名理由向中央主管機關申請同意第三項同行政院提案"},{"start":5904.454,"end":5932.689,"text":"行政院提案委員陳慶威等19人提案第二十七條醫療機構執行第八條第一項第二款或第十二條第一項之再生技術應有發生不良反應致重大傷害或死亡之救濟措施其方式範圍及其他應遵行事項由中央主管警官公告之前項救濟措施得以投保相關責任保險為之"},{"start":5934.17,"end":5957.626,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秀帆等18人提案第27條醫療機構執行第九條第三項或第五項之再生技術應有發生不良反應致重大傷害或死亡之救濟措施其方式範圍及其他應遵行四項由中央主管機關公告之第二項同行政院提案委員羅廷"},{"start":5958.386,"end":5982.024,"text":"國庭委等21人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等25人提案第27條醫療機構執行第9條第一項第二款或第三款之再生技術因有發生不良反應致重大傷害或死亡之救濟措施其方式範圍及其他應遵行事項由中央主管機關公告之第二項同行政院提案"},{"start":5982.805,"end":6000.992,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第27條醫療機構執行第8條再生技術因有發生不良反應致重大傷害或死亡致救濟措施其方式範圍及其他應遵行事項由中央主管機關公告之第二項同行政院提案。以上。"},{"start":6004.727,"end":6016.493,"text":"行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀邦等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員陳敬輝等19人提案委員楊崇英等25人提案第6章法則行政院提案委員陳敬輝等19人提案第28條"},{"start":6021.195,"end":6029.637,"text":"非醫療機構有下列情形之一者處心臺幣200萬元以上、2000萬元以下罰還一、違反第11條規定執行再生醫療二、違反第21條第二項規定為再生醫療廣告有下列情形之一者處心臺幣20萬元以上、200萬元以下罰還一、違反第7條規定執行再生醫療前未進行或未完成人體試驗二、違反第8條第三項規定未經中央主管機關核准執行同條第一項第一款之再生技術三、"},{"start":6047.06,"end":6071.308,"text":"違反第14條第二項後段規定未經許可執行細胞操作,四）違反第18條第一項前段規定未經許可設置細胞保存庫,五）違反第21條第一項規定未經核准執行再生醫療之醫療機構非保存組織細胞保存庫設置機構或非受中央主管機關所託辦理第6條第4款招募及推廣人體組織細胞提供者"},{"start":6072.228,"end":6087.561,"text":"刊破招募廣告．六．違反第二十一條第二項規定．被禁核准執行再生醫療之醫療機構為再生醫療廣告．七．違反第二十二條第二項規定．未經核准或未向傳播業者提據．核准文件或刊破廣告．"},{"start":6088.081,"end":6109.021,"text":"或未經核准變根源核准之廣告內容或刊播方式有第一項各款或前項第三款規定情形者除一該項規定處罰外並得公布其名稱有第一項第一款違規之情形令得沒入其執行再生醫療之設備及再生製劑委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案第28條"},{"start":6110.242,"end":6119.126,"text":"有下列情形記憶者處心台幣20萬元以上、200萬元以下罰還。一、違反第7條規定非醫療機構執行再生醫療。二、違反第11條第二項後段規定未經許可執行細胞操作。三、違反第15條第一項前段規定未經許可設置細胞保存庫。四、違反第18條規定執行再生醫療前未進行人體試驗。五、違反第21條第一項規定非執行再生醫療至醫療機構或非細胞保存庫設置機構刊破招募廣告。"},{"start":6139.674,"end":6156.35,"text":"六（違反第二十一條第二項規定非醫療機構為再生醫療廣告。七（違反第二十二條第二項前段規定未經核准或未向傳播業者提具核准文件刊破廣告。有前項第一款第二款或第六款規定情形者處以該項規定處罰外並被公布其名稱。"},{"start":6157.251,"end":6183.853,"text":"委員王振旭等20人提案第28條有下列情形之一者處心臺幣200萬元以上2000萬元以下罰還一違反第7條規定非醫療機構執行再生醫療二違反第21條第二項規定非醫療機構為再生醫療廣告有下列情形之一者處心臺幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還一違反第11條第二項後段規定未經許可執行細胞操作二違反第15條第一項前段規定未經許可設置細胞保存庫"},{"start":6185.478,"end":6207.39,"text":"第三、違反第18條規定執行再生醫療前未進行人體試驗。四、違反第21條第一項規定非執行再生醫療之醫療機構或非細胞保存庫設置機構刊破招募廣告。五、違反第二項前段規定未經核准或未向傳播業者提據核准文件刊破廣告。有第一項各款或前項第一款規定情形者。"},{"start":6207.95,"end":6223.3,"text":"除一該項規定處罰外並得公佈其名稱。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第28條第一項續文及第三款第五款如下有下列情形之一者處新台幣200萬元以上2000萬元以下罰款。三違反第15條第一項前段規定未經許可設置人體細胞保存庫。五違反第二十一條第一項規定非執行再生醫療之醫療機構或非人體細胞保存庫設置機構刊播招募廣告。第二項如下有前項各款情形"},{"start":6235.928,"end":6261.553,"text":"有前項各款規定情形者,除一該項規定處罰外,並得公布其名稱。其餘委員邱議瑩等25人提案第28條同。委員楊聰英等25人提案第28條第一項第一款第7款如下。一、違反第7條規定被醫療機構執行再生醫療業務。七、違反第22條第二項前段規定未經核准或未向傳播業者提供具核准文件刊破廣告。其餘委員邱議瑩等25人提案第28條同。"},{"start":6262.933,"end":6283.752,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第29條有下列情形之一者處刑臺幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還並另限其改善藉其為改善者按次處罰至改善為止。一、違反第14條第4項所定辦法中有關細胞操作之方法管制措施運銷或許可事項變更之規定"},{"start":6284.472,"end":6303.137,"text":"二、違反第17條或第18條第一項規定為確保提供者之合適性。三、違反第18條第二項鎖定辦法中有關保存項目許可事項變更因具備之設施、設備、品質、管理、費用、收取、退費或商業運用利益回饋之規定。四、違反第22條第三項規定刊破以"},{"start":6305.838,"end":6326.572,"text":"廢紙核准 禁令立即停止刊播或禁禁止繼續刊播至廣告五（違反第二十二條第四項所定辦法中有關廣告刊播地點之規定六（違反第二十二條第五項規定刊播第八條第一項第一款之再生技術廣告七（違反第二十二條第一項規定刊播未經核准與核准事項不符以廢紙核准"},{"start":6327.112,"end":6352.278,"text":"經令立即停止刊播或經禁止繼續刊播至廣告。依必項規定令限其改善改善期間或藉其為改善者得令停止一部或全部細胞操作及保存其情節重大有損害病人生命身體或健康之事實或有損害之餘者病的廢止其一部或全部許可。委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王真旭等20人提案。"},{"start":6353.058,"end":6368.641,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員楊瓊英等25人提案第29條有下列情形之意者處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還並令限期改善藉其為改善者按次處罰至改善為止依違反第11條第4項所定辦法中有關細胞操作之方法"},{"start":6369.042,"end":6369.322,"text":"規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定"},{"start":6388.76,"end":6407.929,"text":"第22條第二項後段規定未經核准變更原核准之廣告內容五（第23條第一項規定刊破以廢止或禁令立即停止刊破並限期改善而未改善之廣告有前項第四款規定情形者除一該規定處罰外並得公布其名稱第三項與院版第二項同"},{"start":6409.372,"end":6422.299,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第30條醫療機構違反第12條第一項規定未經核准及登記執行再生技術或使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑處新台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰還並得公佈其名稱"},{"start":6425.541,"end":6445.231,"text":"有下列情形之一者處新台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰還,並另限其改善,藉其為改善者按次處罰至改善為止。一、違反第12條第三項所定辦法中有關核准事項變更、費用收取或退費之規定。二、違反第27條第一項規定無救濟措施或其措施未符合中央主管機關公告之規定。"},{"start":6446.011,"end":6461.485,"text":"有前向第一款規定情形者除一該項規定處罰外,並得公布其名稱,一、第二項規定令限期改善期間或藉其為改善者得令停止一部或全部再生醫療執行作業,其情節重大有損害病人生命身體或健康之事實,"},{"start":6462.465,"end":6488.318,"text":"會有損害之餘者,並得廢止其一部或全部核准十項。」委員邱議瑩等25人提案。委員羅廷瑋等21人提案。委員黃秀芳等18人提案。委員王振旭等20人提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第30條第一項如下。醫療機構違反第8條第一項規定,未經核准使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術,處新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下罰還,並得公布其名稱。第二項第一款如下。"},{"start":6488.798,"end":6514.414,"text":"一、違反第八條第三項所定辦法中有關核准事項變更費用收取或退費之規定其餘與原版同。委員楊瓊瑩等25人提案第四項分號前二字為業務其餘委員邱瑩等25人提案同。行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第31條有效的情形之一者處心臺幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰款。一、以第九條規定之方式進行涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞之再生醫療研究"},{"start":6515.575,"end":6541.542,"text":"二、執行再生醫療之一是未符合中央儲管機關一第13條後段規定公告之資格。三、違反第14條第4項鎖定辦法中有關細胞操作人員資格之規定。四、違反第18條第2項鎖定辦法中有關細胞保存庫人員資格之規定。五、違反第19條第1項規定提供者非為有意識能力之成年人。六、違反第23條第2項規定未依規定期限保存資料或保存資料不全。"},{"start":6542.202,"end":6563.18,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案第31條有下列情形之一者處新台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰款一違反第九條第二項規定未經申請核准使用第八條第一項規定指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術者二違反第九條第三項規定執行尚未完成第三期人體試驗之再生技術"},{"start":6564.381,"end":6580.851,"text":"三、醫療機構違反第9條第4項所定辦法中有關執行資格條件申請核准之程序、核准效期、核准事項變更之規定。四、執行或非提供第9條第5項公告之不含基因改造或轉植之人類細胞及其衍生物質細胞治療項目。"},{"start":6582.552,"end":6592.877,"text":"五、執行再生醫療之一是未符合中央主管機關一第10條後段規定公告之資格。六、違反第11條第4項鎖定辦法中有關細胞操作人員資格之規定。七、違反第15條第2項鎖定辦法中有關細胞保存庫人員資格之規定。八、違反第16條第1項規定提供者"},{"start":6600.661,"end":6622.342,"text":"非為有意思能力之成年人．違反第19條第一項規定以禁止之方式進行涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞之再生醫療研究,時違反第23條第二項規定,為依規定期限保存資料或保存資料不全,委員羅廷瑋等21人提案,委員王正旭等20人提案,委員楊瓊英等25人提案。第三十一條"},{"start":6623.303,"end":6646.559,"text":"有下列情形之一者處心臺幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰還一、執行再生醫療之一是未符合中央主管機關一第10條後段規定公告之資格二、違反第11條第4項鎖定辦法中有關細胞操作人員資格之規定三、違反第15條第2項鎖定辦法中有關細胞保存庫人員資格之規定四、違反第16條第1項規定提供者非為有意思能力之成年人"},{"start":6647.159,"end":6671.178,"text":"五、未經核准以第19條第一項規定之方式進行涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞之再生醫療研究。六、違反第23條第二項規定為依規定期限保存資料或保存資料不全。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第31條第一款如下。一、執行再生醫療之一是未符合中央主管機關一第10條後段規定公告之資格。其餘委員羅廷瑋等21人提案同。"},{"start":6672.884,"end":6689.831,"text":"行政院提案委員陳金輝等19人提案第32條有效類情形之一者處新台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰還並令限期改善。藉其為改善者按次處罰至改善為止。依違反第14條第4項所定辦法中有關細胞操作人員應完成相關訓練之規定"},{"start":6691.252,"end":6718.081,"text":"二（違反第15條第一項規定執行再生醫療前未違相關說明。三（違反第15條第二項規定未予執行再生醫療前取得同意書。四（未依第16條第一項規定製作記錄保存或登錄資訊系統。五（記錄內容未包括第16條第二項所定事項。六（違反第19條第二項規定未予取得組織細胞前獲得提供者之書面同意或未依同條第三項至第五項有關同意權行使之規定辦理。"},{"start":6719.281,"end":6740.622,"text":"七（一（二十條第一項規定與取得同意前告知該項所列事項。八（一（二十條第二項所定辦法中有關告知方式程序之規定。九（一（二十三條第三項規定迴避、妨礙或拒絕提供、接受、委託刊播之廣告文件資料。十（一（二十四條第一項所定期限提出結果報告。"},{"start":6741.363,"end":6762.277,"text":"十一、結果報告內容未包括第24條第二項鎖定事項。十二、違反第25條前項規定發生嚴重不良反應未為通報或為為或為依同條後段鎖定辦法規定通報。十三、未遵循中央主管機關依第26條第一項規定所為停止或終止執行再生醫療全部或一部之命令。"},{"start":6762.857,"end":6787.128,"text":"十四（違反第二十六條第二項規定為事先申請同意而自行停止或終止經核准之再生醫療。十五（違反第二十六條第三項規定為檢舉後續處理計劃書到中央主管機關核定或為依核定之後續處理計劃書執行。委員邱議瑩等25人提案為黃秀芳等18人提案第三十二條違反條項如下一、第十一條第四項二、第十二條第一項"},{"start":6788.248,"end":6802.195,"text":"三．12條第二項、四．13條第一項、五．13條第二項、六．16條第二項、七．17條第一項、八．違反第17條第二項所定辦法中有關告知方式或程序之規定,其予以願反同。"},{"start":6805.693,"end":6828.524,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第32條、第一款、第二款、第十款如下。一、違反第11條第4項所定辦法中有關細胞操作人員應完成相關訓練之規定。二、違反第12條第1項規定執行再生醫療前未為相關說明。十、違反第19條第2項所定辦法中有關核准事項變更之規定。第三款至第9款及第11款至第17款。"},{"start":6829.364,"end":6853.058,"text":"與委員邱議瑩等25人提案第二款至第八款及第九款至第十五款同,其餘與其同。委員王志趣等20人提案委員楊崇英等25人提案第32條第九款如下。九、違反第19條第二項鎖定辦法中有關核准事項變更之規定第十款至第十六款,與委員邱議瑩等25人提案第九款至第十五款同,其餘與其同。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第32條第六款後段如下。"},{"start":6856.38,"end":6876.947,"text":"或未依同條第三項或第四項有關同意權行使之規定辦理,其餘委員邱議瑩等25人提案同,台灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條違反第21條至第23條廣告規定者,中央主管機關應訂定廣告處理原則,審酌違反情節、累計違反次數、違反所得利益及其他審酌因素為罰還額度之依據。"},{"start":6879.727,"end":6906.727,"text":"行政院提案委員陳慶輝等19人提案第33條本法所定法環與私立醫療機構處罰其負責醫師與醫療法人設立之醫療機構處罰醫療法人委員邱瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員楊崇英等25人提案第33條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第34條依本法所為處分由中央主管機關為之"},{"start":6907.748,"end":6926.073,"text":"本法所定法環與私立醫療機構處罰其負責醫師與醫療法人設立之醫療機構處罰醫療法人。行政院提案委員邱瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王正旭等20人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員陳金輝等19人提案委員楊聰英等25人提案第7章負責"},{"start":6932.555,"end":6954.625,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第16條政府應依本法規定檢討所主管之法規及行政措施有妨礙再生醫療政策推動不符合本法規定或無法規可知適用者因自本法施行後一年內完成法令之制定令修正或廢止及行政措施之改進前項法規完成制定令"},{"start":6955.405,"end":6977.501,"text":"修正前由主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關依規定解釋使用。委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第13條《再生醫療制計另一法律定制》。行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案。委員羅廷瑋等21人提案。委員黃秀芳等18人提案。委員王振旭等20人提案。委員陳金輝等19人提案。委員楊瓊英等25人提案第34條。"},{"start":6978.962,"end":7006.314,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條本法施行細則由中央主管機關定之行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王正旭等20人提案委員陳金輝等19人提案委員楊瓊英等25人提案第35條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第36條本法施行日期由行政院定之委員謝衣鳯等19人提案第17條本法自公佈日施行"},{"start":7009.029,"end":7027.982,"text":"繼續宣讀再生醫療致記條例草案再生醫療致記管理條例草案條文對照表行政院提案臺灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊秋瑩等26人提案名稱再生醫療致記條例委員謝衣鳯等18人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員劉建國等17人提案"},{"start":7038.746,"end":7063.36,"text":"再生醫療致濟管理條例行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一條為確保再生醫療致濟之安全品質及有效性維護病人權益特制定本條例本條例未規定者依藥事法及其他相關法律之規定委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秀帆等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等26人提案第一條"},{"start":7065.076,"end":7085.151,"text":"為確保再生醫療致濟之品質、安全及有效性、維護病人權益特制定本條例。本條例為規定著醫藥司法及其他相關法律之規定。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案。第一條,為確保再生醫療致濟之品質、安全及有效性,並維護病人"},{"start":7086.892,"end":7111.549,"text":"接受治療之權益特制定本條例本條例為規定者得適用其他相關法律之規定委員羅廷瑋等21人委員劉建國等17人提案第一條為確保再生醫療自治品質安全及有效性並維護病人接受治療之權益特制定本條例本條例為規定者醫藥事法等相關規定"},{"start":7112.91,"end":7139.356,"text":"自規定行政院委員各委員短團提案第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秋帆等18人委員王正旭等20人委員楊秋英等26人提案第三條本條例所稱再生醫療之際只含有基因細胞及"},{"start":7141.382,"end":7165.695,"text":"及其衍生物、供人體使用之治劑。」 TALI（台湾民眾黨黨團提案第三條本條例所稱:「再生醫療治劑屬要事法第六條之藥品,只含有基因、細胞及其衍生物、供人體使用之治劑。」ortunately,羅廷瑋等21人提案第三條本條例所稱:「再生醫療治劑屬要事法第六條之藥品,只含有基因、人類細胞及其衍生物、供人體使用之治劑。」"},{"start":7166.696,"end":7193.379,"text":"行政院提案〈臺灣民眾黨黨團〉委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秀帆等18人委員文正旭等20人委員楊瓊英等26人提案第四條再生醫療治劑分類如下一、基因治療治劑將從主基因嵌入或輸注入體內以治療、預防或診斷疾病之治劑二、細胞治療治劑"},{"start":7195.923,"end":7218.851,"text":"將細胞或其衍生物加工製造以治療預防或診斷疾病之製劑。三）組織工程製劑將含有經加工改造之組織或細胞修復再生或替代人體組織器官之製劑。四）複合製劑將具有醫療器材屬性之結構材料簽合前三款全部或部分之製劑。"},{"start":7221.031,"end":7249.591,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第四條本條例所稱再生醫療之際指下列各款之一之際但不包括醫療機構依據醫療法第62條第二項所定辦法施行細胞治療技術所製成者各款內容除第二款將人類細胞或其衍生物加工製造及第三款改造人類細胞或細胞等文字不同外其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":7250.987,"end":7275.712,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第三條本條例所稱再生醫療製劑指下列各款之一之製劑一以治療或預防人類疾病為目的對細胞施以加工製成者二以治療或預防人類疾病為目的使人體內含有重組基因者三以移植、修復或重建人類之組織或器官為目的"},{"start":7277.152,"end":7296.463,"text":"對細胞施以加工而使之具有組織結構或機能者。」委員劉建國等17人提案第三條除第一款對細胞加工製成者及第三款對細胞加工而使之具有組織結構或機能者等文字不同外其餘同委員謝衣鳯等18人提案。"},{"start":7298.567,"end":7312.207,"text":"行政院提案台灣民眾黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員王秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人提案第5條再生醫療致記之販賣業者及製造業者以下並稱要三"},{"start":7314.69,"end":7334.64,"text":"為醫藥事法第15條第一款之藥品販賣業者及第16條第一項之藥品製造業者,前項製造業者應聘用國內外大學院校以上醫藥或生命科學等相關科系畢業,並具有細胞學、維生物學或免疫學專門知識之專任人員助產參與製造。"},{"start":7337.782,"end":7357.194,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第4條:「再生醫療致濟之販賣業者及製造業者為藥事法第15條第一款之藥品販賣業者及第16條第一項之藥品製造業者。」委員劉建國等17人提案第4條:「再生醫療致濟之販賣業者及製造業者為藥事法第15條第一款之藥品販賣業者及第16條第一項之藥品製造業者。」"},{"start":7365.177,"end":7379.412,"text":"從事製造再生醫療自給之法人、醫療機構、研究機構、准用前項藥品製造業者之規定,委員楊瓊英等26人提案第5條,同行政院第5條提案第1項。行政院提案"},{"start":7380.455,"end":7404.85,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀帆等18人委員黃正旭等20人委員楊瓊英等26人提案第6條。要山製造輸入再生醫療制計應向中央主管機關申請查驗登記並經核准發給藥品許可證或合與有付款許可後使得為之。中央主管機關合與前項有付款許可應先經再生醫療審議會之審議通過。"},{"start":7408.759,"end":7429.19,"text":"輸入第一項再生醫療製劑應由藥品許可證或有付款許可之所有人或其授權者為之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條,藥商製造輸入再生醫療製劑應向中央主管機關申請查驗登記,並經核准發給藥品許可證或合與有付款"},{"start":7430.111,"end":7430.371,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":7445.748,"end":7470.978,"text":"第三（同行政院提案。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第五條製造輸入再生醫療治濟應向中央主管機關申請查驗登記並經核准發給再生醫療治濟許可證後使得為之輸入前項再生醫療治濟應由許可證所有人或其授權者為之委員劉建國等17人提案第五條第一項同委員謝衣鳯等18人提案"},{"start":7472.018,"end":7492.883,"text":"輸入前項再生醫療制計應由許可證或有條件期限許可之所有人或其授權者為之。行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨等提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振訊等20人委員楊求英等26人提案第7條"},{"start":7495.24,"end":7514.145,"text":"經核准製造輸入之再生醫療制計應經中央主管機關核准使得變更藥品許可證或有付款許可及原查驗登記事項。藥品許可證及有付款許可移轉時應辦理移轉登記。委員謝衣鳯等18人委員劉建國等17人提案第6條經核准"},{"start":7516.766,"end":7529.834,"text":"製造輸入之再生醫療制計非經中央主管機關核准不得變更查驗登記及許可證原登記事項許可證移轉時應辦理移轉登記行政院提案第8條"},{"start":7531.095,"end":7553.963,"text":"一、第六條第一項規定,發給至藥品許可證有效期間為五年,期滿能需繼續製造輸入者,應於有效期間屆滿三個月前至六個月間,申請中央主管機關核准展言。每次展言不得超過五年,藥品許可證效期屆滿未申請或經否准展言者。"},{"start":7555.063,"end":7582.367,"text":"原許可證施其效力並由中央主管機關注銷之。前向許可證有污損或遺失時應續名理由向中央主管機關申請換發或補發。換發者並應同時將原許可證繳銷。前二條申請查驗登記、醫管登記、藥品許可有付款許可與原查驗登記事項之變更及"},{"start":7583.905,"end":7603.522,"text":"前二項藥品許可證之展言,換發與補發者其申請條件應檢複之文件資料審查程序核准基準收費及其他相關事項資準則由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":7609.192,"end":7626.257,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀寬等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等26人提案第8條除第1項應有效期間屆滿前6個月內申請中央主管機關核准展言之內容不同外其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":7627.017,"end":7644.87,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等18人委員由建國審17人提案第7條:「再生醫療致濟製造輸入許可證有效期間為5年,起碼能需繼續製造輸入者應事先申請中央主管機關核准展延,每次展延不得超過5年,藉其未申請或經否準展延者,"},{"start":7646.175,"end":7665.978,"text":"原許可證施其效力,並由中央主管機關註銷之,前二條及前項規定申請再生醫療致濟許可證查驗登記、變更、離轉及展延者,其申請條件應檢複資料、審查程序核准、基準及其他應遵行事項之準則,由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":7668.092,"end":7682.373,"text":"行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員黃秀寬等18人委員王振旭等20人提案第9條中央主管機關受理第6條第一項諮查院登記申請後未診治及危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病"},{"start":7683.214,"end":7700.924,"text":"於完成第二期臨床試驗並經審查風險效益具安全性及初步療效者得附加付款和與有效期間不超過5年之許可,起碼不得展延。前項危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病得於申請查驗登記前向中央主管機關申請認定。"},{"start":7702.225,"end":7717.803,"text":"委員楊瓊英等26人提案第9條,中央主管機關受理第6條第一項諮查驗證記申請後,為治療危及生命或嚴重私人疾病且國內尚無適當藥物或合適替代療法者,得附加付款。"},{"start":7718.484,"end":7735.812,"text":"何以有效期間不超過5年之許可?其滿不得展言。」取於同行政院提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第9條第一項除為治療危及生命或嚴重四人之疾病等文之不同外,取於同行政院提案。前項查驗登記不得重複"},{"start":7737.199,"end":7761.711,"text":"重復合給有付款許可。」第一項為及生命或嚴重四人之疾病得於申請查驗登記前向中央主管機關申請認定。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第8條第一項除並經評估風險效益得以確保安全性及初步療效之前提下等文字不同外。及第三項無得於申請查驗登記前等文字外。其餘同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第9條。"},{"start":7764.797,"end":7779.788,"text":"議員羅廷瑋等21人提案第9條要三你申請製造輸入之再生醫療製劑符合以下各款情形者中央主管機關得於再生醫療諮詢會通過後附加確保妥善使用之付款"},{"start":7781.016,"end":7803.096,"text":"給予該再生醫療製劑有效期間不得超過5年之許可。一、為整治危及生命或嚴重失人之疾病。二、完成第二期臨床試驗並有證據可推定具備申請之效能、效果或性能。三、與申請之效能、效果或性能相較,無明顯有害之作用。"},{"start":7804.249,"end":7822.945,"text":"前向查驗登記不得重複和給有付款許可。前向危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病得於申請查驗登記前向中央主管機關申請認定。中央主管機關對取得第一項有條件期限許可之治劑得依風險程度公告使用"},{"start":7823.545,"end":7847.306,"text":"該治劑之醫療機構範圍及醫師資格,未符合前項公告範圍之醫療機構或資格之醫師,不得使用該再生醫療治劑。」委員劉建國等17人提案第8條,中央主管機關受理第5條第一項查驗登記申請後,為預防治療危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病,得附加付款。"},{"start":7847.967,"end":7865.521,"text":"何以有效期間不超過五年之有條件期限許可?前項危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病需經中央主管機關事前審查認定者違憲。舉同委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第九條第四五項。"},{"start":7867.068,"end":7881.842,"text":"行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員羅廷瑋等21人委員黃秀芳等18人委員王振旭等20人委員楊瓊英等26人提案第10條前條第一項所定付款應包括下列事項一執行療效試驗"},{"start":7883.343,"end":7901.704,"text":"療效驗證試驗並定其或與指定期限內繳交試驗報告。二）廢而及其收取方式。三）病人因使用致近發生不良反應致死亡障礙或嚴重疾病之救濟措施。四）其他經中央主管機關"},{"start":7902.785,"end":7928.362,"text":"指定之事項,依前條第一項規定何與有付款許可者與履行所附加之付款後,得向中央主管機關申請查驗登記並經核准後發給藥品許可證。為履行所附加之付款或經評估有重大安全疑慮者,中央主管機關得廢止其付款許可。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第9條,前條第一項"},{"start":7930.612,"end":7958.71,"text":"負款包括執行療效驗證試驗定期或於指定期限內繳交試驗報告及完成其他相關事項。為依前項負款執行試驗案期繳交報告完成其他相關事項或經評估有重大安全疑慮者中央主管機關得廢止及暫時信許可。委員劉建國等17人提案第9條"},{"start":7960.54,"end":7986.483,"text":"第一項同委員謝衣鳯等18人提案。一、前條第一項合宇有條件期限許可者與履行所附加之付款後,向中央主管機關申請查驗登記病經核准者,發給再生醫療制計許可證。未履行有條件期限許可所附加之付款或經評估有重大安全疑慮者,中央主管機關得廢止其有條件期限許可。"},{"start":7988.396,"end":8010.69,"text":"行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人委員劉廷瑋等21人委員黃秀帆等18人委員王正旭等20人委員楊全英等26人提案第11條再生醫療製劑取締人體組織細胞製造者及製造或輸入業者應確保該製劑來源提供者之合適性使得製造或輸入"},{"start":8011.59,"end":8025.246,"text":"前向提供者合適性之判定條件篩選測試項目及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條,再生醫療製劑取締人體組織、細胞製造者及製造或輸入業者,應確保該製劑來源提供者之合適性。"},{"start":8032.734,"end":8049.919,"text":"包括 執行相關傳染病及其病原篩檢及測試,無導入傳播或擴散相關傳染病原或疾病之風險時,使得製造或輸入,及同行政院提案。"},{"start":8050.859,"end":8066.769,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第10條,第三項經中央主管機關核准為自體使用者,因依前項所定之辦法接受篩選及測試,但其核四性質判定得不受該辦法之限制,須與同行政院提案第11條。"},{"start":8067.89,"end":8092.979,"text":"委員劉建國等17人提案第10條第一項同行政院提案第11條第一項。前項所稱合適性指捐贈者之組織或細胞未有導入傳播或擴散相關傳染性病原或疾病之風險。第一項捐贈者合適性之判定條件篩選測試項目及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":8095.034,"end":8105.18,"text":"行政院提案第12條未公製造再生醫療之際由於國內取得人體組織細胞者其提供者以有意思能力之成年人為限但顯有異於特定人口"},{"start":8106.55,"end":8134.617,"text":"人口群或未能與其他對象取代者不在此限。前向之組織細胞應於取得前獲得提供者之書面同意。前向書面同意提供者為胎兒時應得其母書面同意。為限制行為能力人或受輔助宣告之人時應得其本人及法定代理人或輔助人書面同意。無行為能力人或受監護宣告之人時應得其法定代理人或監護人書面同意。提供者為無意識能力之成年人"},{"start":8135.097,"end":8159.527,"text":"未能依前項規定辦理時,應按下列順序之人員取得其書面同意。一、配偶。二、成年子女。三、父母。四、兄弟姐妹。五、族父母。前項第二款至第五款規定人員所為之書面同意,得以一人為之。同順序之人意思表示不一致時,以與無意思能力之成年人同居親屬為先。其同居親屬有二人以上者,以年長者為先。無同居親屬者,以年長者為先。"},{"start":8162.808,"end":8189.145,"text":"本條及第13條書面同意之內容得以完整呈現並於日後取出公查驗者得以電子文件為之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條未公製造再生醫療製劑而於國內取得人體組織細胞者其提供者已有異似能力之成年人為限但顯有異於特定人口群或未能以其他對象取代者除胎兒無行為能力人外不在此限。前項之細胞"},{"start":8190.606,"end":8212.984,"text":"前向之組織細胞應於取得前獲得提供者之書面同意。第1項書面同意提供者為限制行為能力人或受輔助宣告之人時應得其本人及法定代理人或輔助人書面同意。第1項提供者為受監護宣告之人或無意思能力之成年人時以同意時具意思表示能力者為限,其書面同意有效。"},{"start":8213.664,"end":8241.161,"text":"委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員黃秀芳等18人擬具委員王振旭等20人擬具委員楊崇英等26人擬具與院版第一項至第五項同委員謝衣鳳等18人擬具第11條為工作製造再生醫療製劑與國內取得人體組織細胞者應於取得前依一定方式程序並將相關事項以可以理解之方式告知捐贈者或其他有同意權者而獲得其書面同意"},{"start":8241.621,"end":8269.338,"text":"而獲得其書面之情同意後,使得為之。請向其他有同意權者之適用情形與資格應告知事項、方式、程序、記載內容及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員劉正國等17人提案第11條為工作製造再生醫療製劑與國內取得人體組織細胞者應於取得前一一定方式、程序獲得捐贈者或其他有同意權者之書面同意,使得為之。"},{"start":8270.359,"end":8288.292,"text":"前向其他有同意權者之適用情形與資格應告知事項、方式、程序、記載內容及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。行政院提案第13條再生醫療製劑製造業者依前條規定取得同意前應告知下列事項依再生醫療製劑造"},{"start":8289.733,"end":8309.427,"text":"一、再生醫療製劑製造業者名稱二、組織細胞之用途三、所製成再生醫療製劑預定之適應證及適用對象四、組織細胞之取得方式可能產生之副作用與併發證、發生率與處理方法、禁忌、限制及其他相關因配合事項五、提供者合適性判定條件"},{"start":8310.208,"end":8325.405,"text":"六、剩餘組織細胞之後續處置或可能之使用範圍。七、對提供行為之補助內容及方式。八、後續追蹤內容及方式。九、退出終止及終止之權利。十、取得組織細胞過程發生不良反應之醫療照護補償及處理。"},{"start":8328.965,"end":8346.193,"text":"十一,預期可能衍生之利益及歸屬。十二,個人資料保密措施。十三,其他經中央主管機關公告之事項。前項同意之告知方式程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀剛等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員楊崇英等26人提案第13條"},{"start":8355.037,"end":8371.307,"text":"第二項首具為前項告知方式契約院版同行政院提案臺灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王正旭等20人提案委員楊春英等26人提案第14條"},{"start":8372.628,"end":8390.334,"text":"招募再生醫療制劑組織細胞提供者之廣告以下稱招募廣告現由藥商為之。再生醫療制劑廣告依藥事法藥品廣告之規定。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第15條非再生醫療制劑藥商不得為細胞或組織提供者招募廣告。"},{"start":8391.374,"end":8408.231,"text":"行政院提案第15條,招募廣告不得有誇大不實或無科學實證之標示宣傳。要將刊破前項招募廣告時,應於刊破前將其內容及刊破方式向中央主管機關或其委任委託之機關構或法人申請核准,並向傳播業者提具核准文件後使得為之。刊破期間未經核准,不得變更原核"},{"start":8414.817,"end":8425.206,"text":"再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查"},{"start":8442.12,"end":8460.152,"text":"傳播業者接受委託刊播招募廣告因自廣告之日起6個月內保存委託刊播招募廣告之藥商名稱、藥商許可執照字號、營業所地址、電話及第二項之核准文件影本資料經中央主管機關要求提供時不得規避妨礙或拒絕。"},{"start":8461.613,"end":8487.008,"text":"第二項招募廣告的刊貨與不得刊貨之文字、言詞、圖畫或其他內容、招募對象、刊貨方式、刊貨地點及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員楊聰英等26人提案第15條第二項、第四項、第六項如下"},{"start":8488.638,"end":8507.799,"text":"要將刊破前向招募廣告時,應於刊破前將所有文字、言詞、圖畫或內容向中央主管機關或其委任委託之機關購或法人申請核准,並向傳播業者提具核准文件後,使得為之刊破期間未經核准,不得變更原核准招募廣告內容。"},{"start":8509.444,"end":8532.53,"text":"傳播業者不得刊播未經核准與核准事項不符,以廢止或禁令立即停止刊播,並獻其改善而未改善之招募廣告。第二項招募廣告得刊播與不得刊播之文字、言詞、圖畫或內容、招募對象、刊播地點及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之,其餘與院版同。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第16條:「再生醫療至極藥商、刊播細胞或組織提供者招募廣告時,"},{"start":8538.192,"end":8559.763,"text":"因於勘破前將所有文字、圖畫或言詞申請中央或直轄市主管機關核准並向傳播業者送驗核准文件。原核准機關發現以核准之招募廣告內容或勘破方式危害民眾健康或有重大危害之餘時應令藥商立即停止勘破並限其改善,藉其為改善者備止之。"},{"start":8561.109,"end":8585.018,"text":"召募廣告在核准登載堪破期間不得變更原核准事項傳播業者不得堪破未經中央或直轄市主管機關核准與核准事項不符以廢止或禁令立即停止堪破並限期改善而尚未改善之召募廣告接受委託堪破之傳播業者因自廣告之日起6個月內保存委託堪破廣告者之姓名法人或團體名稱身份證或事業登記證字號住居所"},{"start":8589.6,"end":8614.552,"text":"事務所或營業所及電話等資料且與主管機關要求提供時不得規避妨礙或拒絕第一項招募廣告之有效期限招募對象與刊登標的之限制及其他應遵循事項由中央主管機關公告之行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案委員楊瓊英等26人提案第16條"},{"start":8617.046,"end":8625.374,"text":"藥商因依藥事法第53條之一及第57條規定取得運銷製造許可並符合藥物優良製造準則及西藥優良運銷準則之規定,使得製造及運銷再生醫療之際違反前項規定未經許可擅自製造或運銷或未符合藥物優良製造準則或西藥優良運銷準則之規定製造或運銷者依藥事法規定才處。"},{"start":8643.49,"end":8646.712,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第12條:「再生醫療製劑製造業者應依工廠管理輔導法規定辦理工廠登記,但依工廠管理輔導法規定免辦理工廠登記或經中央主管機關核轉之法人、醫療機構及研究機構之製造業者不在此限。」"},{"start":8662.279,"end":8679.693,"text":"再生醫療製劑製造及運銷其組織人士、作業場所、設施、設備、文件、原物料、生產、品質管制、委外作業、儲存、運輸、客戶申訴、退回與回收及其他應遵行事項應符合再生醫療製劑優良製造及運銷準則並經中央主管機關檢查合格取得製造及運銷許可後使得為之。"},{"start":8686.238,"end":8691.201,"text":"主管機關得派員檢查第五條再生醫療製劑製造業者販賣業者之處所、設施及有關業務,並得出具單據抽驗其製劑,業者不得無故拒絕,但抽驗數量以足供檢驗之用者為限。"},{"start":8702.468,"end":8727.096,"text":"輸入再生醫療製劑之國外製造廠準用前二項規定並由中央主管機關定其過一實際需要赴國外製造場所檢查之第二項之準則與許可申請條件檢查程序、審查基準、效期、核發、變更、移轉、展延、廢止、收費及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員劉建國等17人提案第12條再生醫療製劑之製造及運銷其組織人士、作業場所"},{"start":8732.259,"end":8741.933,"text":"設施、設備、文件、原物料、生產、品質管制、委外作業、儲存、運輸、客戶申訴、退回與回收及其他應遵行事項,應符合再生醫療制計優良製造及運銷準則,並應中央主管機關檢查合格。"},{"start":8748.082,"end":8768.087,"text":"取得製造及運輸許可後使得為之,輸入再生醫療製劑之國外製造場準用全項規定,並由中央主管機關定期或依實際需要赴國外製造場所檢查之。法人醫療機構研究機構設置之製造場所準用第一項規定,並由中央主管機關定期或依實際需要赴場所檢查之。"},{"start":8768.707,"end":8790.043,"text":"第一項之準則與許可申請條件檢查程序審查基準效其合法變更轉移轉展延廢止收費及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之行政院提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王正旭等20人提案委員楊崇英等26人提案第17條"},{"start":8792.53,"end":8810.969,"text":"經核准製造輸入之再生醫療之際,中央主管機關得指定品項期間令藥品許可證或有付款許可之所有人依公告或核定之安全監視計劃,監視其安全性。醫療機構應提供相關安全監視資料與該許可證或有付款許可之所有人。"},{"start":8811.69,"end":8828.706,"text":"前向許可證或有付款許可之所有人,應定期製作安全監視報告繳交中央主管機關,為定期繳交或經中央主管機關,任該至極有安全疑慮或安全監視計劃執行之方式,內容與原公告或核定不符者,得令其限期改善或延長監視期間。"},{"start":8830.347,"end":8849.446,"text":"必要時得令其暫停製造輸入或販賣,情節重大者得盡以廢止其藥品許可證或有付款許可,前二項安全監視資料及報告及繳交方式期限,內容格式收集資料之限制與維護,監視期間評估及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第17條第一項後段為"},{"start":8853.83,"end":8873.994,"text":"醫療機構應提供無法辨識當事人之相關安全監視資料與該許可證或有付款許可之所有人。其欲與願反同。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第13條經核准製造輸入資再生醫療製劑中央主管機關得指定品項期間利用再生醫療製劑許可證所有人依核定之安全監視計劃監視其安全性醫療機構應提供相關安全監視資料與許可證所有人取得證實性許可"},{"start":8881.375,"end":8905.711,"text":"再生醫療治劑准用前項規定、前二項安全監視計畫資料及報告其提供或繳交方式、期限內容、格式及其他應遵形式向之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員劉建國等17人提案第13條經核准製造輸入自再生醫療治劑中央主管機關得指定品項期間令再生醫療治劑許可證所有人依公告或核定之安全監視計畫監視其安全性。醫療機構應提供相關安全監視資料與許可證。"},{"start":8912.256,"end":8933.852,"text":"前向許可證所有人應定期製作安全監視報告繳交中央主管機關,為定期繳交或經中央主管機關認該產品有安全疑慮或安全監視計畫執行之方式,內容與原公告或核定不符者,得令其限期改善或延長監視期間,必要時得令其暫停製造、輸入或販賣,情節重大者得禁與廢止其許可證。"},{"start":8934.753,"end":8949.242,"text":"前二項安全監視資料及報告及繳交方式期限內容格式收集資料之限制與維護監視期間評估及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。取得有條件期限許可之再生醫療製劑準用前三項規定。"},{"start":8951.863,"end":8979.404,"text":"行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案、委員邱議瑩等25人提案、委員羅廷瑋等21人提案、委員黃秀芳等18人提案、委員王振旭等20人提案、委員楊崇英等26人提案。第18條,藥商及醫療機構應保存再生醫療字跡供應來源及流向之資料,前向資料之範圍保存方式與期限及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。委員謝衣鳯等18人提案、委員劉建國等17人提案。第14條,"},{"start":8980.825,"end":9002.091,"text":"再生醫療之際之製造販賣業者及使用之醫療機構應建立與保存產品直接供應來源及流向之資料,前向資料之範圍建立與保存方式及期限以及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。前向中央主管機關定定之資料保存期限至少為10年,其涉及重組基因者至少為20年。"},{"start":9004.181,"end":9020.715,"text":"行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案、委員邱議瑩等25人提案、委員羅廷瑋等21人提案、委員黃秀芳等18人提案、委員王正旭等20人提案、委員楊瓊英等26人提案。第19條使用取得有付款許可之再生醫療之際發生不良反應致死亡"},{"start":9021.095,"end":9049.549,"text":"障礙或嚴重疾病時依所附加之第十條第一項第三款救濟措施辦理使用取得藥品許可正值再生醫療之際適用藥害救濟法之規定。行政院提案第二十條有下列各款情形之一者由中央主管機關處新台幣三萬元以上二百萬元以下罰款依違反第十五條第二項規定未經核准或未向傳播業者提具核准文件刊播招募廣告或未經核准變更員核准之招募廣告內容或刊播方式"},{"start":9050.049,"end":9075.166,"text":"二）違反第15條第4項規定堪破未經核准與核准事項不符以廢止核准或禁令立即停止堪破之招募廣告。三）違反第15條第5項規定違依規定期限保存資料或保存資料不全或規避妨礙或拒絕提供資料。四）違反第15條第6項鎖定辦法中有關招募廣告堪破地點之規定。第二十一條有下列各款情形之一者由直轄市縣市主管機關處心台幣3萬元以上200萬元以下罰還。一）違依第5條"},{"start":9080.189,"end":9108.57,"text":"第二項規定聘用具相關學歷及專門知識及專任人員二違反第六條第一項規定未取得藥品許可證或有付款許可製造或輸入再生醫療至極三違反第七條規定未經核准擅自變更藥品許可證有付款許可或原查驗登記事項或擅自移轉藥品許可證或有付款許可四違反第十一條第一項規定為確保提供者合適性擅自製造或輸入再生醫療至極五違反第十二條第一項本文規定"},{"start":9109.531,"end":9134.279,"text":"非已有意思能力致成年人之組織細胞製造再生醫療致濟。六（第12條第二項規定為予取得組織細胞前獲得提供者書面同意或為依同條第三項至第五項有關同意權行使規定辦理。七（第13條第一項規定予取得同意前告知該項所列事項。八（第13條第二項所定辦法中有關告知方式或程序之規定。九（第14條第一項規定"},{"start":9135.959,"end":9162.536,"text":"非藥杉為招募廣告。十、違反第17條第一項規定,藥品許可證或有付款許可之所有人為供告或核定之安全監視計劃執行或醫療機構為提供安全監視資料。十一違反第17條第三項鎖定辦法中有關安全監視報告內容、繳交期限或監視期間之規定。十二違反第18條第一項規定為保存資料。十三違反第18條第二項鎖定辦法中有關保存資料之範圍、保存方式或保存期限之規定。"},{"start":9163.436,"end":9181.892,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員王正旭等20人提案委員楊崇英等26人提案第二十條第二款默劇為以廢止或經令其停止刊播並限其改善而未改善之招募廣告其餘願版同"},{"start":9182.813,"end":9198.738,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第21條第10款莫具為或醫療機構為提供無法辨識當事人之安全監視資料期遇與願反同委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃修芳等18人提案委員王振旭等20人提案第21條與願反同委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第17條"},{"start":9202.799,"end":9230.411,"text":"有下列各款情形之一者處心臺幣三萬元以上二百萬元以下罰還一、違反第五條第一項規定為向中央主管機關申請查驗登記並經核准發給再生醫療自給許可證或合與有條件期限許可製造輸入再生醫療自給二、違反第六條規定為經核准擅自變更查驗登記許可證原登記時項或許可證移轉時未辦理移轉登記三、違反第八條第三項規定為依公告範圍或資格使用再生醫療自給"},{"start":9231.611,"end":9234.454,"text":"第10條規定製造或輸入業者為確保捐贈者合適性,擅自製造或輸入再生醫療之際。第11條規定為工作製造再生醫療之際與國內取得人體組織細胞前為獲得捐贈者或其他有同意權者之書面同意。"},{"start":9249.489,"end":9257.316,"text":"六、違反第12條第一項或第二項規定為取得製造或運銷許可製造輸入或運銷再生醫療製劑。七、違反第14條第一項規定為建立或保存產品供應來源及流向資料或違反中央主管機關第14條第二項鎖定辦法有關範圍保存方式或期限制規定。八、違反第15條規定非再生醫療製劑藥商不得為細胞或組織提供者招募廣告。違反第16條第一項或第二項或第三項規定者"},{"start":9276.932,"end":9283.319,"text":"除新台幣20萬元以上500萬元以下罰還違反第12條第1項或第2項除1第1項規定處罰外中央主管機關的公佈製造或販賣業者名單並令其限期改善改善期間得停止其一部或全部製造批發輸入輸出及營業藉其為改善者不得斬鹽再生醫療自給許可證"},{"start":9297.433,"end":9305.685,"text":"且不受理該製造廠其他再生醫療製劑之新申請案件。其清潔重大責任則廢止其一部或全部之製造或運銷許可。"},{"start":9308.274,"end":9328.84,"text":"違反第14條第一項關於許可證所有人未依合定之安全監視計劃監視其安全行之規定或經中央主管機關任該再生醫療自己有安全疑慮得令其限期改善或延長監視期間請接重大者得禁與廢止其許可證。委員劉靖國等17人提案第15條第一項第一款至第7款與委員謝衣鳳等18人提案第17條第一項第一款至第7款同"},{"start":9334.002,"end":9342.127,"text":"第二項前額具違違反第12條第一項或第二項規定者除一前項規定處罰外其餘與委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第17條第三項同委員楊瓊英等26人提案第21條續文及第一款至第12款與台灣民眾黨黨團提案第21條續文及第二款至第13款同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員邱議瑩等25人提案委員羅廷瑋等21人提案委員黃秀芳等18人提案委員"},{"start":9362.921,"end":9373.891,"text":"王振旭等20人擬具委員楊瓊英等26人擬具第22條本條例有關再生醫療制計之管理事項主管機關得定期或不定期積查行政院擬具第23條台灣民眾黨黨團擬具委員邱議瑩等25人擬具委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具委員黃秀當等18人擬具委員王振旭等20人擬具委員楊瓊英等20人擬具第23條"},{"start":9386.903,"end":9402.532,"text":"委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第18條委員劉建國等17人提案第16條本條例施行日期由行政院定之繼續宣讀修正動議第一案。第一條增列推動產業發展之文字"},{"start":9404.278,"end":9421.968,"text":"第五條增訂第三項再生醫療審議會之委員與第一項第五款第七款規定之受審議人有利益衝突應迴避。第七條第一項後段文字或本法施行前醫療機構已經中央主管機關核准執行再生醫療技術之情形外"},{"start":9422.748,"end":9439.078,"text":"第八條第一項醫療機構執行再生技術有治療危及生命或嚴重失能之疾病且國內上無適當之藥品醫療器材或醫療技術者免進行或免完成人體試驗。第十二條增列第四項"},{"start":9440.868,"end":9456.755,"text":"本法實行前醫療機構經主管機關核准執行之再生技術依據本法實行前之核准條件為第一項規定之登記。第19條第三項第二句提供者為胎兒或未成年人時。第六項"},{"start":9458.871,"end":9478.725,"text":"第三）第四）規定再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者為胎兒未成年人、限制行為能力人、受輔助宣告之人、無行為能力人、受監護宣告之人或無意識能力之成年人,取得之書面同意應經法院公正使得深效力。第二十八條第二項第三款"},{"start":9482.091,"end":9509.521,"text":"三（違反第九條規定以禁止這方式進行涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞之再生醫療研究。第三項後段五年內再犯者最高得儲規定上限之十倍以下罰款。第四項第二句得儲六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑。第二十九條第一項第四款違反第十九條第五項為完備同意程序使用再生醫療組織細胞"},{"start":9512.096,"end":9538.726,"text":"第30條第三項有前項第一款規定情形者除一該項規定處罰外並應公佈其名稱五年內在犯者最高得處規定上限之十倍以下之罰還。第四項後段其情節重大有損害病人生命身體或健康之事實或有損害之餘者應廢止其一部或全部核准事項並得另行移送移交司法機關辦理。"},{"start":9540.458,"end":9547.66,"text":"第三十三條本法所定法環以及第28條第4項第29條第4項之刑事處罰於私立醫療機構處罰其負責醫師與醫療法人設立之醫療機構處罰醫療法人與非醫療機構處罰機構負責人或執行業務之負責人提案人委員林月琴聯署人委員王振旭黃秀芳"},{"start":9563.365,"end":9588.057,"text":"第二案,第八條,醫療機構執行再生技術有下列情形之一者,免醫再生醫療制計條例之規定,申請藥品許可或有付款許可。一、治療危及生命或嚴重失能之疾病且國內尚無適當之藥品或醫療器材。二、以完成第二期臨床試驗之細胞治療技術。三、提供不含基因改造或轉植之人類細胞及其衍生物之細胞治療。"},{"start":9589.398,"end":9604.099,"text":"前項第二款自完成第二期臨床試驗之日起超過五年者排除第一項之適用。第一項第三款細胞治療項目由中央主管機關公告之。提案人委員王育敏蘇清泉盧憲一鄭正前"},{"start":9605.18,"end":9618.356,"text":"第三案第6條第二項前項所述之其他政府機關構醫療機構學術研究機構學校或法人所需之條件與委託方式由中央主管機關令定之第7條第一項守據醫療機構除執行臨床再生醫療試驗外"},{"start":9623.783,"end":9640.832,"text":"第14條第三項醫療機構為執行業務之必要得供應業務相關之再生醫療製劑並得免請藥商許可執照但非屬執行業務提供病人使用而系販賣零售再生醫療製劑者人因醫藥事法第15條第一項第一款申請為藥品販賣業者"},{"start":9644.346,"end":9655.418,"text":"第20條第1項第4款四（剩餘組織細胞之後續處置與使用範圍提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、邱振鈞第4案"},{"start":9657.708,"end":9679.358,"text":"第五條第二項前項審議會應廣納醫學、藥學、生醫、化學、醫學工程學以及法律倫理學等專家學者共同組成任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一提案人委員劉建國、連署人委員王振旭、林月琴。第五案第五條專案主管機關應組成再生醫療審議會以下簡稱審議會"},{"start":9688.092,"end":9712.25,"text":"自委員若干人就醫療科技倫理法律與其他相關專業學者專家聘派兼職由衛生福利部部長或部長就委員中指定一人擔任召集人。前項審議會辦理下列再生醫療事項。第六款"},{"start":9713.615,"end":9741.637,"text":"再生治劑及再生技術管理諮詢審議。其餘各款同行政院版。第一項審議會之組成亦是利益迴避及其他應遵行四項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。其餘同行政院版。第七條醫療機構執行再生技術前除有第八條第一項規定情形外應進行並完成人體試驗。"},{"start":9743.817,"end":9762.448,"text":"第六條第二項前向其他政府機關構、醫療機構、學術研究機構、學校或法人之委託方式、資格條件由中央主管機關定之。其餘同行政院版。第十三條"},{"start":9764.863,"end":9782.453,"text":"其資格由中央主管機關定定公告之。其同院版。第20條第一項第4款剩餘組織細胞之後續處置與使用範圍。其同行政院版。第14條第三項"},{"start":9787.599,"end":9808.355,"text":"醫療機構為執行業務之必要得供應業務相關之再生醫療制計並得免請藥商許可執照但非屬執行業務提供並能使用而係販賣零售再生醫療制計者仍因依藥事法第15條第一項第一款申請為藥品販賣業者。"},{"start":9811.383,"end":9834.653,"text":"其於同行政院版。第二十一條第二項再生醫療之廣告現由經核准執行再生醫療之醫療機構與經核准執行再生醫療技術之醫師為之再生之際廣告依藥事法藥品廣告之規定提案人委員王振旭、林月琴、陳盈"},{"start":9836.785,"end":9862.281,"text":"繼續宣讀再生醫療治劑草案修正動議第一案。第七條經核准製造輸入之再生醫療治劑非經中央主管機關核准不得變更查驗登記藥品許可證登記或有付款許可證登記事項。藥品許可證及有付款許可移轉時應辦理移轉登記。"},{"start":9866.303,"end":9886.712,"text":"第八條正列第一項前段文字為《再生醫療試劑製造輸入之許可證》,即中段文字兼改為其間,令末段手具文字藉其未申請或經否準展言者。其同行政院版第八條第一項,第二項同行政院版第八條第二項。"},{"start":9888.188,"end":9913.918,"text":"一、前二條及前二項規定申請再生醫療製劑查驗登記藥品許可有付款許可之變更已轉及展延者換發與補發其申請條件應檢複之資料審查程序核准基準收費及其他相關事項之準則由中央主管機關定之。第九條中央主管機關受理第五條第一項查驗登記申請後"},{"start":9914.938,"end":9931.068,"text":"未診治危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病且國內尚無適當藥物或合適替代療法者於完成第二期臨床試驗並經審查風險效益具安全性及初步療效者得附加付款。"},{"start":9931.969,"end":9958.049,"text":"何以有效期間不超過5年之有條件期限許可,並以合給一次為限,且期盼不得展延。第二項除所具前項二致不同外,其餘內容及第三項同委員羅廷瑋等21人提案第9條第4、5項。第11條第一項、第二項同行政院提案第11條,第三項同委員謝衣鳯等18人提案第10條第三項。"},{"start":9959.73,"end":9974.267,"text":"第12條第1、2、4、5、7項同行政院提案第12條第1、2、4、5、6項。第三項前段除提供者為胎兒或未成年人時等文字不同外其餘同行政院提案第12條第三項。"},{"start":9975.749,"end":9998.906,"text":"令第六項內容為第三項第四項規定再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者為胎兒未成年人、限制行為能力人、受輔助宣告之人、無行為能力人、受監護宣告之人或無意識能力之成年人,取得之書面同意應經法院公正死生效力。第十三條第一項第七款"},{"start":10000.748,"end":10022.137,"text":"提供程序可能產生之風險、發生率及處理方法及對提供行為之補助內容及方式,取於同行政院版第13條。第15條,對方行政院提案第15條內容除刪除第二項前段或其委任、委託之機關構或法人等文字外,取於同行政院提案。"},{"start":10023.177,"end":10047.253,"text":"第18條徵定第三項,前項中央主管機關定定資料保存期限至少為15年,其餘同行政院提案第18條。第18條之一,再生醫療製劑製造販賣業者及醫療機構應建立長期追蹤機制,以追蹤施用再生醫療製劑病患受試者延遲性不良反應,"},{"start":10048.754,"end":10062.262,"text":"對應再生醫療制計所引起之未預期嚴重不良反應應行通報。中央主管機關應邀集醫療科技人員、法律專家及社會公正人士或民間團體代表組成委員會。"},{"start":10063.243,"end":10083.284,"text":"已定期審議再生醫療致濟安全監視及長期追蹤報告並公開相關報告委員會成員任意性別不得低於三分之一前二項規定之長期追蹤機制之執行方式追蹤條件與時程及未預期嚴重不良反應之通報再生醫療致濟安全監視及長期追蹤報告之審議"},{"start":10086.147,"end":10099.493,"text":"以及其他應遵行事項諮辦法由中央主管機關定製提案人委員林月琴、王振旭、黃秀芳、賴慧媛。修正動議第二案。第九條。"},{"start":10101.806,"end":10128.892,"text":"中央主管機關受理第6條第一項諮查院登記申請後有下列情形之一者得附加付款,何以有效期間不超過5年之許可?其滿不得展言。一、治療危及生命或嚴重私人之疾病且國內尚無適當之藥品或醫療器材。二、已完成細胞治療技術第二期臨床試驗之再生醫療製劑。"},{"start":10130.552,"end":10157.067,"text":"前向第一款為及生命或嚴重私人之疾病得於申請查驗登記前向中央主管機關申請認定。提案人委員蘇清泉、盧憲伊、圖泉吉、鄭正前。第三案第三條第二項前向再生醫療治劑屬藥師法第六條規定之藥品。第五條第二項前段前向製造業者應由專任藥師"},{"start":10159.116,"end":10182.808,"text":"助產監製及應聘用國內外大學院校以上醫藥或生命科學等相關科系畢業。」提案人委員劉建國、王振旭、林月琼。宣讀完畢。條文及修正動議宣讀完畢。現在先休息10分鐘,休息過後繼續法條的逐條審查。謝謝。"},{"start":10767.196,"end":10767.38,"text":"三）繼續審查委員"},{"start":10804.824,"end":10824.658,"text":"我先做一個預告中午我們是12點30分到1點休息今天預計處理主條到下午4點左右休息明天繼續開會處理我們現在進行討論事項第一案再生醫療法草案主條審查"},{"start":10825.999,"end":10848.719,"text":"以行政院提案條次為準,進行討論。」每條條文先請行政單位說明,接著請委員表示意見。好。第一個法案名稱。麥克風先把它發下去。"},{"start":10868.373,"end":10892.75,"text":"好,第一個法案名稱法案名稱的部分的話除了謝衣鳯委員有加發展法其他委員的名稱都跟我們行政院的提案一樣希望委員就支持院版是不是我們就以行政院的版本那就以行政院的提案版本來通過"},{"start":10896.876,"end":10904.4,"text":"接下來的第一張總則的名稱所有的委員其實都一致。是,好,那就以行政院提案的版本通過。"},{"start":10906.86,"end":10929.731,"text":"接下來第一條第一條的部分的話重點是在立法目的然後立法目的的部分的話委員的部分其實是在後面的到底是以安全品質有效這特別是安全跟品質這個之間然後那我們會覺得是說在再生醫療法他的特殊性的部分的話我們會建議支持院板的是把安全擺在前面"},{"start":10930.251,"end":10931.332,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10942.016,"end":10943.057,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10964.108,"end":10965.789,"text":"其他委員還有沒有意見?沒有,那請行政單位說明一下。"},{"start":10990.383,"end":11011.436,"text":"在病人權益的部分的話它的基礎就是醫學倫理所以我們會建議原本的文字就可以然後另外的部分的話因為這個法案的主要的目的是在於做所謂的再生醫療這樣子的一個行為的一個規範然後產業發展的部分的部分是因為我們本來就有產業發展條例跟生技產業創新條例裡面來做處理"},{"start":11014.898,"end":11034.645,"text":"所以才會在院討論的時候我們這個地方主要是以再生醫療行為規範為主體所以才會強調的他的立法目的會是以安全品質有效然後維護病人的權益讓民眾能夠及時的使用所以用普惠國民使用所以建議支持院板以上"},{"start":11037.566,"end":11058.331,"text":"我個人認為病人權益跟醫療倫理是兩件事情病人有權益接受最好也許最安全的治療但是在資訊不對等情況下我們要在尤其這個是完全新興的一個法案我希望還是能夠加入的醫療倫理應該也不違背這個市長剛剛說明的就是加入這幾個字"},{"start":11060.492,"end":11061.853,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11073.176,"end":11094.179,"text":"王建旭委員謝謝主席我想趙志偉也是有提到醫療倫理沒有加進來的話會不會影響到病人的權益如果依照我們對倫理的了解他其實是已經含括在病人權益的範圍之內所以我會支持院板以上楊耀委員"},{"start":11097.695,"end":11111.66,"text":"我有一個問題就是我覺得第一條裡面我們寫到了普惠國民使用這幾個文字就是說再生醫療"},{"start":11113.26,"end":11114.14,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11142.89,"end":11144.09,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11165.56,"end":11188.307,"text":"王玉銘委員,剛剛那個楊耀委員的發言我很同意,因為這個是再生醫療法,那在第一條開宗明義放入普惠國民使用還蠻奇怪的,因為事實上再生醫療他應該是適用特定人,不會普惠國民,他不是什麼保健食品,所以"},{"start":11189.187,"end":11198.767,"text":"加入普惠國民使用這樣的語意的確在這個特別的醫療法裡面放入這樣的字眼我也覺得是比較不適當的"},{"start":11202.366,"end":11220.802,"text":"還有沒有其他委員要表示意見陳昭芝委員我三度發言那最後尊重大家決定醫療倫理跟病人提議我覺得還是有差別的醫療倫理的最重要就是病人要充分被告知而且有自主性這個跟他的權益本身我覺得還是可以有一些區隔"},{"start":11222.423,"end":11223.083,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11251.582,"end":11271.534,"text":"針對楊耀委員跟王玉明委員的意見。像這種法案在第一條的部分就等於是立法的一個目的。通常大家意見就會很多,有的要寫多一點,有的要寫少一點。就是說"},{"start":11277.697,"end":11303.59,"text":"就是說這種第一條的這種立法目的的部分的話經常在討論的過程當中一定會有委員覺得說寫的太少要多加一點有的會覺得說寫的太多哪一個可以拿掉那我是建議是這樣是不是我們先保留那等全部的條文都看完之後的話再回過來看這一條這樣可能會比較有效"},{"start":11304.261,"end":11330.28,"text":"好,那我們就先第一條先保留那接下來第二條第二條的部分的話是明定主管機關然後相關委員的提案裡面其實是跟我們衛福部行政院的版本是一致那除了謝衣鳯委員的版本是因為他有在講發展所以才會涉及到中央各目的社會主管機關委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":11333.413,"end":11333.854,"text":"三）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":11348.072,"end":11373.611,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具《再生醫療法草案》案。接下來第三條。第三條是針對定義的部分。然後那我就起點做一個回應。因為在委員的版本裡面其實特別是對再生醫療的部分。因為我們這邊的院版的跟很多委員的版本的文字一致的地方在於是說再生醫療只利用基因、細胞及其衍生物"},{"start":11373.951,"end":11401.264,"text":"用於治療、修復或替代人體的細胞組織器官之致技或技術。」所以在這個裡面其實是開放了是說我們未來像我們現在是主要是自體致技的部分也有議題的一個通過然後所以我們才會覺得是說在這個上面的話是以願版的文字可能在未來執行的部分甚至在研究發展的部分其實是比較有利的"},{"start":11401.664,"end":11402.085,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11419.964,"end":11434.86,"text":"其他的部分的話就是對於我們的生技公司的部分的話因為我們這個是跟生技創產條例裡面的那個文字差不多是一致的所以建議是不是也能夠支持我們的行政院的版本以上"},{"start":11437.202,"end":11452.655,"text":"陳昭芝委員在第三條的第一款我們認為在這個再生醫療部分要增加因為剛剛本來要請問不過司長已經明說了我們這裡要求增加但不得利用異種異體細胞進行醫療行為"},{"start":11456.178,"end":11456.979,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11474.378,"end":11475.418,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11497.603,"end":11519.995,"text":"所以我像就保護國人醫療的權益以及這個這個技術利用的安全性未來如果有已經到成熟穩定到一個程度我們再來修改這個法條所以我希望能夠加入但不得利用異種異體細胞進行醫療評委在這個第三條的這個第一項謝謝好接下來邱議瑩委員"},{"start":11522.332,"end":11541.685,"text":"關於陳昭芝委員提到的這個部分其實我們在上一屆也進行很多的討論那其實在生醫療製劑我們現在要談的主要是要針對液體細胞可以讓他量化量產化來對人體做治療至於液種"},{"start":11543.686,"end":11544.707,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11561.669,"end":11562.109,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11590.063,"end":11618.642,"text":"那到時候要再來修法可能要不知道要等到何年何月何日啊再生醫療法我就已經推了10年所以我不知道如果你們現在直接把它限縮掉的話會不會扼殺了整個科學研究的這樣的一個發展所以我是建議還是保留一些空間讓這個醫學的研究它其實是有無限的可能的是不是以上建議好請王振旭委員"},{"start":11619.783,"end":11646.881,"text":"謝謝主席我本身是一個癌症科醫師所以我每天在面對的就是這些癌症病人當他需要醫療的時候有沒有機會能夠得到更好的醫療處理那我們所知道的再生醫療其實它進步真的非常非常的快如果我們現在把它一些未來有機會研發出來的對癌症病人或其他相關的病人有幫助的部分"},{"start":11647.581,"end":11675.379,"text":"現在把他框架住其實真的非常可惜我們期待透過剛剛議員委員所說明的我非常支持院板目前我們可以用這樣的方式不要再特別去限定異種異體細胞因為事實上現在是沒有在執行的所以我們不需要這個時候就急著把他框架住這樣對我們醫療的發展對我們生物科技的發展其實是會很受到影響以上"},{"start":11676.462,"end":11700.511,"text":"陳昭芷委員謝謝主席因為剛剛兩位委員擔心的部分當然所以我這邊要強調的是這個部分我們是放在這個因為再生醫療只允許在非醫療機構不得執行再生醫療所以我現在談的是臨場面的東西那至於這個研究發展這個是在不會是就在研究發展部分沒有受限於這個部分我們只是在這個限定在醫療機構內部進行醫療行為時"},{"start":11703.692,"end":11704.153,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11723.973,"end":11727.775,"text":"再生醫療人體試驗 指教學醫院或金鐘主管機關同意指醫療機構。當然我們理解教學醫院跟醫療機構的差異,但是"},{"start":11752.691,"end":11753.611,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11775.578,"end":11776.158,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11794.991,"end":11813.516,"text":"再生醫療法草案案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案件事宜等19人擬具:「再生醫"},{"start":11823.089,"end":11823.47,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11838.243,"end":11859.082,"text":"就像我不支持國民黨﹖暫時不支持國民黨一直在主張了SMR的核能一樣研究是研究但它要正式安全相轉是一回事那在治療上面我們當然是採取保守的態度從研究到臨床到醫療上的許可其實是不一樣的"},{"start":11861.384,"end":11876.655,"text":"現在我們有沒有辦法提出一種就是說現在應該對於技術還不是很成熟或者是臨床數據也看不顯著的或者是說還在研究階段的我們現在認為是不適宜但是在未來我們應該更正面的去講說到什麼階段的話我們才可以接受這種一體一種的這個技術"},{"start":11890.104,"end":11890.484,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11912.056,"end":11912.816,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":11941.363,"end":11943.224,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11957.066,"end":11957.907,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11972.742,"end":11973.563,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11998.738,"end":11999.038,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12019.08,"end":12047.5,"text":"首先是那個陳委員剛剛提到的人體試驗的這一個部分他是這樣子啦生技公司或是國務院或是工人院他是不可以直接做人體試驗因為人體試驗最重要的一件事情就要受試者的保護受試者就是在這裡面當然因為那個再生醫療不會有第一期的臨床試驗也就不會找健康人來做"},{"start":12048.16,"end":12049.001,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12064.063,"end":12088.914,"text":"國衛院、公園院、生技公司沒有直接接觸病人的,病人一定是在醫療機構。所以我這樣回答,所以為什麼一定是要醫療機構來做,尤其是可以做這個人體試驗的教學醫院等等,或者其他的醫療機構,這是第一點。第二點,我先回答那個趙志偉委員的,"},{"start":12090.134,"end":12108.774,"text":"三）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案．審"},{"start":12113.876,"end":12134.631,"text":"所以在談議題的時候都是同種議題啦一樣都是人但是現在都是自體的自己的細胞拿出來操作之後的話再打回去那很快的我想就會有很多技術是用議題的就別人的細胞也可以來用但是同樣都是人"},{"start":12135.572,"end":12150.282,"text":"所以這是同種議題。同種議題我想民眾黨的這個提案裡面也不是去反對同種議題。剛剛趙志偉在解釋的時候我聽起來並沒有反對說同種議題的可以再來做。"},{"start":12152.964,"end":12167.441,"text":"而且如果說要做大量製造的話如果說同種液體的細胞本身沒有這種排斥的可能因為不是每一種細胞都會有產生排斥的現象"},{"start":12168.041,"end":12193.818,"text":"以前陳家華委員就是誤解了這一點他以為所有的液體的那液體的細胞都會產生排斥都會有免疫的這種作用出來但是不見得不見得會是這樣子所以我認為就是說民政黨的版本並沒有排除同種液體所以現在要討論的就是異種"},{"start":12195.523,"end":12220.099,"text":"好那異種的部分的話有一個地方就是我們在思考的時候經常會想說是豬啦是牛啦這些當然這一種的細胞的這個取這種豬牛羊的細胞來做操作之後再打回去當然它的風險會是比較大的但是異種不是只有這個"},{"start":12221.78,"end":12227.401,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12253.608,"end":12255.809,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12272.998,"end":12301.284,"text":"但是,如果我們臨床把它禁掉的話,大概研究就不會有人會去做。因為你就研究沒有那個目的。研究的話要用在人身上才會有研究的價值嘛,不然覺得說,是不是裡面這樣做做paper,那有什麼意義?當然是這樣嘛,對啊,本來就是都有研究開始啊,但是你一旦把那個目的擋掉的話,是不是研究就會停擺?"},{"start":12304.715,"end":12306.976,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12333.283,"end":12334.404,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「"},{"start":12353.667,"end":12366.975,"text":"一種的方法或者是同種議題同種議題會不會有排斥不是你在這裡講你要拿數據拿paper人家發表的paper來出來看或者是實務醫療界已經在進行了拿來看我覺得這樣才有說服力說同種議題即使這個東西外國誰都已經在做這種治療療法都已經是發達的而且是成熟的而且你說很快到底是有多快"},{"start":12381.263,"end":12381.623,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12407.233,"end":12409.515,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12433.53,"end":12433.81,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12457.374,"end":12457.855,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12477.768,"end":12478.008,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12498.67,"end":12498.97,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12515.055,"end":12542.382,"text":"我在這邊跟各位委員報告目前國際間已經核准的這一個細胞治療裡面那有一個叫做Alophis那這個是在歐盟跟日本核准的他是用液體的細胞治療他在治療的是傳統治療無效的克隆士症的成人病人的複雜性的肛門肉管那這個是已經核准的"},{"start":12543.102,"end":12559.069,"text":"另外在美國有三個是液體的細胞治療的。一個是取自死亡的捐贈者的胰島核Beta細胞注射到病人的肝膜靜脈製造治療第一型的糖尿病的病人。"},{"start":12559.769,"end":12581.706,"text":"這都已經核准了美國第二個液體細胞治療的他是用液體的幾代血幹細胞來治療增加體內室中性白血球的恢復降低感染的風險他是適用於在做"},{"start":12582.446,"end":12599.501,"text":"放射性治療或化學骨髓淨除式治療後進行幾代血移植,12歲以上的血癌病人。第三個在美國所做的,不過這是自體,這我就先不講。"},{"start":12600.805,"end":12601.485,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12630.273,"end":12630.834,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12646.489,"end":12647.51,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12667.014,"end":12670.756,"text":"王振旭委員王振旭委員王振旭委員"},{"start":12696.568,"end":12722.522,"text":"讓這個病人可以不需要因為他是低型的糖尿病無法自己製造胰島素那這個就是一種可行性這個類似這個樣的概念那至於說他能不能直接這樣用當然一定要經過好的臨床試驗才能夠處理到這個程度所以我剛剛很認同大家如果我們在這個立法說明裡面針對於可能造成的"},{"start":12723.803,"end":12725.045,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12739.093,"end":12762.207,"text":"林淑芬委員主席我聽了這樣的意見剛才那個一種議題我覺得就是可能就是應該要放到正常完成正常的臨床實驗裡面其實就可以用如果照王醫師的講法他就不能夠在特許的例外條款裡面使用就是這樣子就是說一種議題要限縮在那個程序那同種議題的話剛才這個講的這個"},{"start":12766.269,"end":12767.09,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12788.609,"end":12789.389,"text":"二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":12809.366,"end":12810.427,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12830.559,"end":12831.4,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12850.401,"end":12850.681,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12865.469,"end":12865.729,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12889.48,"end":12916.29,"text":"第8條是非常危急的時候才有使用。他即使是在治療的當下免除正常程序但是他後來他還是必須拿到藥證才能成為正規的治療只是在非常危急的時候你去做這樣的處理。但危急的時候我們要把風險更大的異種液體跟同種液體也許可他使用嗎?"},{"start":12918.652,"end":12918.753,"text":"接下來第4條。"},{"start":12935.156,"end":12954.08,"text":"第四條的部分的話我們跟很多委員其實的那個條文是一樣因為主要是在中央主管機關應該就會制定一個推動的計畫定期討論然後來推動再生醫療然後我們也各級的主管機關也可以要求相關的一個機關構學校法人或團體來協助推動"},{"start":12955.66,"end":12956.701,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12985.94,"end":12987.001,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13005.735,"end":13021.929,"text":"然後就是說我必須再提到現在很多學者希望特管法第20條第三條有規定中央主管監獄必要時得公開醫療結果是治療統計結果但目前為止我們都看不到就特管法這樣執行的所有的成果我們目前都看不到所以衛福部是有選擇權的那這樣是我們就是會擔心的"},{"start":13025.532,"end":13025.952,"text":"邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":13057.351,"end":13082.598,"text":"我本來想說因為大家的版本基本上都跟行政院版差不多那這個剛剛民眾黨的委員說要提政策制定再生醫療法跟制定再生醫療製劑的推動通過這個就是國家對於再生醫療推動的政策重大政策之一那這個政策被延宕了8年"},{"start":13083.652,"end":13095.624,"text":"所以,懇請各位委員支持啦,如果大家覺得再生醫療法的發展非常重要,這個其實就是一個重大的政策之一。那要把它放進去我也沒有什麼太大的意見啦。好,黃建旭委員"},{"start":13098.438,"end":13115.93,"text":"謝謝趙委謝謝主席我想剛剛趙副委員一直很希望把這個醫療倫理寫到這個法案裡面其實醫療倫理是我們每天每天都要執行而且都要奉行的所以如果只是針對再生醫療認為需要醫療倫理這樣其實範圍太小了"},{"start":13119.412,"end":13146.412,"text":"因為我們每天在看病人就是需要遵守醫療倫理所以其實這個是可以不用在這個地方在另外特別規範的我支持院辦以上主席不好意思這個當然自律的醫師如這個是沒有問題但是這個就是再生醫療倫理規範為什麼呢其實它涉及我們剛剛講安全品質有效性其實還涉及一個費用這個是相對非常昂貴的一個費用所以我們覺得在這個倫理的部分"},{"start":13147.413,"end":13150.335,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":13175.171,"end":13175.772,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13193.572,"end":13194.272,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13214.255,"end":13214.716,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13229.192,"end":13233.054,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":13258.208,"end":13258.548,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13280.653,"end":13286.775,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":13309.284,"end":13324.063,"text":"請容許我再做補充說明我們會覺得為什麼定義倫理規範因為這近幾年國際上連續發生多起幹細胞研究及組織工程這個試驗的試驗數據或論文造假這個大家可以google到而且再生醫療涉及組織細胞捐贈及商業利益"},{"start":13324.804,"end":13325.625,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13346.644,"end":13347.645,"text":"再生醫療法草案案案"},{"start":13363.661,"end":13384.229,"text":"不過因為在法條裡面包括說收費等等這一些其實後面的條文應該是有這個收費也會受到主管機關的管制所以他的倫理規範可能是剛剛那個趙志偉在談的那有一些造假啦有一些"},{"start":13385.789,"end":13388.45,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":13412.114,"end":13431.062,"text":"那至於政策跟推動的計畫這個也沒有關係啦因為再把政策講清楚一點也OK啦就是我們在推動再生醫療是我們國家重要政策至於要怎麼樣推動就是後面的計畫這我是覺得是可以接受好謝謝部長"},{"start":13433.206,"end":13434.568,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13448.946,"end":13473.276,"text":"我是覺得此肯定的態度肯定我們部長因為牽扯到人體細胞牽扯到人體基因這種很東西很私密的東西我們其實都一直認為應該要高度規範尤其是在倫理方面本來就一定要規管所以有規管有規範還不一定能夠執行的好那更何況沒有任何規範所以也是樂見其成說部裡面願意把這方面的規範放進來"},{"start":13477.722,"end":13478.483,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13496.772,"end":13498.033,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13517.888,"end":13519.328,"text":"再生醫療法草案案 案 規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範規範"},{"start":13540.854,"end":13542.276,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13563.157,"end":13585.347,"text":"因為這個我也個人意見我覺得要想一下下啊到底民眾黨文字是不是最妥當我覺得我們也有思考的空間啊好啦那我們就先保留啦好不好先保留先保留好你就請衛生部原則他是同意倫理規範這幾個字但是現在就是說那個規範的內容是什麼東西"},{"start":13588.168,"end":13589.249,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13614.605,"end":13615.005,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13636.172,"end":13640.515,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案"},{"start":13665.973,"end":13694.42,"text":"因為在行政程序法裡面有基本的規定所以在我們的院版的條文裡面沒有特別的規定是因為這樣然後那還有部分是說對於就是說更明確的是希望在字跡啊或者是那個諮詢的建議或政策這邊的話我們因為覺得是說跟我們原本的院版裡面的文字其實是有一些雷同的部分所以也希望那個委員能夠支持院版以上"},{"start":13696.642,"end":13697.703,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13710.057,"end":13710.938,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13731.892,"end":13751.157,"text":"第7款和與再生資金有付款許可。」付款許可,這是資益,它不是審議,是資益。資益跟審議的差別,我想在,譬如在我個人過去在健保署參與了那麼多的這個新藥資益小組,事實上到最後的決定是在"},{"start":13752.317,"end":13752.898,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13781.937,"end":13786.459,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":13809.847,"end":13825.419,"text":"再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查"},{"start":13840.11,"end":13866.99,"text":"第5款和第7款規定的所受的審議人有利益衝突應該迴避。」以上。好。接下來請陳金輝委員。這個我之前質詢有講到過,因為很少數的項目可以審議,這樣就失去審議委員會的作用,所以我希望可以在第一項把諮詢還有審議都一起納入。剛剛司長有提到說本來就有規範委員會組成,但剛剛很明顯的"},{"start":13868.651,"end":13884.585,"text":"醫學倫理、藥學、醫學這個是主要的爭點所以如果可以具體的列入說相關機關代表、藥學、醫學還有法律倫理領域的專家組成而不是只有講到性別我覺得這樣是比較完整謝謝接下來請林淑芬委員"},{"start":13887.288,"end":13904.765,"text":"這個我是看到行政院版本他這個第6款第7款他第一個是在講再生製劑和再生技術管理的只有諮詢那第7款是說他如果有許可的時候會有付款那這付款還要審議"},{"start":13906.721,"end":13908.704,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13921.089,"end":13922.85,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13940.936,"end":13941.196,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13962.371,"end":13977.096,"text":"我個人提案是在第7款的部分我認為在付款許可還是要用審議因為就像剛才薛部長所說的他沒有委外嘛是不是部長全部沒有委外嗎"},{"start":13978.693,"end":13980.015,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13996.334,"end":14011.844,"text":"對阿上一屆的時候我們討論到最後的話就是說那付付款許可的這一個的話除了在這一個食藥署主管機關的這邊的審查之後的話還要送到這裡來對阿審議委員會阿審議委員會就直接審議並沒有在委外"},{"start":14015.086,"end":14015.727,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14035.646,"end":14036.206,"text":"三）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等22人擬具"},{"start":14049.678,"end":14075.779,"text":"謝謝主席這個我可能跟幾位委員做一下背景說明這個我們上一屆討論的時候對於到底這個委員會要叫審議會還是叫資議會也有一番很長的討論所以最後邱太元委員建議我們就把它改成審議會所以這一次的行政院的版本就依照上一屆最後的協商的結論提出來的名稱就叫審議會那"},{"start":14077.62,"end":14078.221,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":14101.317,"end":14101.817,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14125.632,"end":14140.858,"text":"再生治劑跟再生技術管理就是第6款的部分如果你要諮詢再加審議的話我覺得可能會剝奪到原來的包括食藥署跟醫事司他們原來在審核上面的這樣的一個權利"},{"start":14142.419,"end":14165.966,"text":"所以我的具體建議是不是如果大家要把這個委員會改成資議會我也沒有意見但是那個設置的相關的成員組成的部分是不是照王振旭委員的修正動議把這些把它列入加入然後但是我不是很我個人不是很贊成就是說第六款的部分還要再加審議這樣子好以上"},{"start":14169.137,"end":14170.359,"text":"接下來請王正旭委員發言。"},{"start":14187.034,"end":14213.102,"text":"就是針對於審議會應該要自委員若干人就醫療科技倫理法律與其他相關專業學者專家聘派兼職由衛生福利部部長或部長就委員中指定一人擔任召集人我們期待的就是審議會能夠發揮他重要的功能那在目前的"},{"start":14214.882,"end":14238.915,"text":"相關的法案裡面我們也知道如果有這樣的審議會對於未來的把關有他的重要性所以在第九款後面再追加第一項審議會是組成議事利益迴避及其他應遵循四項的辦法由中央主管機關定制來加強補足我們前面所要"},{"start":14239.616,"end":14248.277,"text":"希望透過這個審議會的成員來讓整個運作或者是在把關的部分可以能夠更符合整個法案的要求"},{"start":14248.823,"end":14250.204,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14279.283,"end":14280.264,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14292.248,"end":14306.001,"text":"首先我要和先續名一下因為上一屆現在在會場上面上一屆有一起坐在這個會議室裡面審查的應該是我跟邱議瑩委員當然還有主席所以在這樣的狀況下我覺得我必須先附議邱議瑩委員剛剛所說的確實是上一屆我們討論的狀況一致不差"},{"start":14316.05,"end":14339.602,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況下第一關於名稱的部分呢確實大家如果是共識比較多要用審議會表示他的項目的話那當然名稱可以不過其實當時的狀況我們確實是覺得說有些事情最後要負責任的還是衛福部啊所以12345678這些事情包括你看看就是說我們要發展創新及推動政策"},{"start":14340.362,"end":14340.602,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14362.119,"end":14362.479,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14383.466,"end":14409.884,"text":"我今天也可以同意就是證據委員這邊如果他的修正動議上面就前面的組成和後面的這個意思規定等等的組成的方式能夠再加強規範的話我是覺得是可以的啦我也可以表示支持但是在過程當中哪一些是諮詢哪一些是審議我目前是比較傾向支持院版的部分也就是上一屆討論出來的結論"},{"start":14412.416,"end":14413.477,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14436.423,"end":14440.606,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）"},{"start":14466.461,"end":14492.102,"text":"誰最後負最後責任然後是目前有跌床駕屋的一個感受我剛剛已經舉例了我在呈要資質要求我讓after pill事後批判過關2015年16年但是我後來被這個食藥署篡改會議記錄然後到今天都還沒收這個條款到現在都沒有去執行所以我覺得質疑OK啊我們就留他質疑啊那這個最後的結果跟責任就是由最後由衛福部的所屬單位來承擔來負責"},{"start":14494.124,"end":14494.425,"text":"邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":14506.637,"end":14524.965,"text":"再生醫療審議會的話因為他審查的內容其實他的高度是蠻專業的所以我是建議是能明定清楚一點然後審議的委員那如果醫學藥學還有法律倫理學這些專家比較適合好那請行政班位是不是再說明一下好淑芬委員"},{"start":14525.865,"end":14539.53,"text":"抱歉因為你們建議照王委員的修正動議通過可是我現在看到第五條的修正動議裡面最後一項最後倒數第二項他講的是說第一項審議委員會的組成"},{"start":14541.351,"end":14569.24,"text":"意識利益迴避及其他應遵循事項的辦法由中央主管機關定制直接授權給中央主管機關可是我們在這裡還是希望明定這個組成要有哪些領域的比如說要並有團體因為到時候我們沒有在這裡明定到時候行政部門定出來搞不好他沒有並有團體也沒有什麼其他我們期待的所以我們是不是應該要明定上去"},{"start":14570.925,"end":14591.213,"text":"劉建國委員王委員的第5條上面應該就有了,第一項就有了對,那就就醫療科技倫理法律與其他相關專業學者專家聘派建設他裡面沒有並有團體"},{"start":14592.58,"end":14593.36,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14610.149,"end":14638.398,"text":"化學、醫學、工程學以及法律倫理學等專家學者共同鑄成。」如果林委員要再把病友團體納進去,我也沒有意見。為什麼我會把它放在最後面?因為我想再生醫療基本上是一個嶄新複雜又需高花費的醫療科技領域。我想也不是一個單一的職業單獨可以去完成的龐雜業務。所以如果我們可以把"},{"start":14639.238,"end":14640.399,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14660.865,"end":14684.371,"text":"好,是不是請行政單位再說明一下。好,那幾個問題啊。第一個問題王委員這邊有提到的是審議的部分的話是有包括第六款再生醫療資計、再生資計及再生技術管理諮詢,然後加了一個審議。這個部分我們是覺得比較不妥當。"},{"start":14685.311,"end":14691.126,"text":"因為這個是在講管理管理的主要的機關就是衛福部"},{"start":14692.65,"end":14720.566,"text":"二部管理的方式還要經過審議會的審議這有一點奇怪所以我是建議這一點的話是不是就還是維持原來的資訊的部分交付款許可的這個審議是上一次上一屆的這個委員會討論後來大家得出的一個折衷版本"},{"start":14721.306,"end":14723.488,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":14743.681,"end":14763.96,"text":"但是我要跟各位報告就是說像這種審議會或諮議會的話通常他會有5委員的人數的限制15到25人大部分是這樣但是其他的專業的話會看個案每一個要審議或者是諮詢的這個個案來找相關的專家"},{"start":14768.564,"end":14783.434,"text":"差別只是相關的專家列席之後陳述意見但是遇到需要做表決決定的時候他不能投票其他的固定委員是可以投票但是從我們衛福部這邊過去的經驗來看的話"},{"start":14786.675,"end":14813.842,"text":"這種專業的委員會很少有投票的大概都是共識決啦所以事實上列席跟列名的委員其實在會議中的討論其實並沒有太大的差異啦所以是否一定要把化學生醫醫學工程學這個把它列進來我想就是說這針對那個劉委員的版本是不是可以再斟酌"},{"start":14817.273,"end":14820.315,"text":"林月琴委員林月琴委員"},{"start":14841.701,"end":14844.363,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14872.398,"end":14872.679,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14889.965,"end":14895.59,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":15202.408,"end":15202.912,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":17023.697,"end":17035.12,"text":"現在繼續開會那是不是請各位委員先參照上面這個條文的這個文字修正建議是大家先參考一下因為剛剛大家有溝通但是他們說要用說明來彌補我們這裡面的疑慮那我們是不是要看到文字"},{"start":17049.942,"end":17050.403,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17068.06,"end":17069.261,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17095.563,"end":17122.62,"text":"那說明欄是不是這邊先我們進去那個要到明天好不好那就授權你們明天還會繼續開會嗎好不好明天再再補上來然後讓委員就是文字文字可以啦這個條文的文字我們現在同意啦然後那個補充說明的部分立法說明的部分是不是包括要聘用的人有包括那個剛剛有建國委員起義的那些區塊"},{"start":17124.221,"end":17124.782,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17150.964,"end":17151.525,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17171.363,"end":17194.324,"text":"但是這樣子會變成說每一個領域都要有人這樣子執行上會不會專家審議會就會不會有可是大家則有相關就可以了就是這幾個每一個都要有還是只要有一兩個有就特別寫的就每一項都要有那就是醫頓號藥頓號可是科技"},{"start":17198.643,"end":17203.846,"text":"邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":17228.657,"end":17251.396,"text":"呃,各位委員,那是不是照現在,大家看一下齁,就是照這個修正文字。哪一個?哦,好啊好啊。欸?"},{"start":17256.138,"end":17281.799,"text":"可不可以把病友團體放在最後我們再調一次法律的就麻煩第7款的那個審議的責任者最終者還是麻煩說明一下因為只有這一條跑出審議是不是我們有做文字修正的部分是不是念念一下好不好然後看各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們第5條就照文字修正通過這樣子好不好"},{"start":17284.943,"end":17285.323,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17312.788,"end":17321.373,"text":"就醫藥科技論理法律相關專業學者專家及並有團體"},{"start":17335.169,"end":17359.342,"text":"主席我會針對科技的部分改成生技生技我覺得生技會比較好一點生技會生物科技嘛科技就很多不同的科技會比較模糊生技那倫理法律那個其他先拿掉相關那個逗點也不用"},{"start":17360.97,"end":17375.928,"text":"相關專業學者專家及病友團體,應該這樣就夠了,因為後面有相關的嘛,所以其他的大概就會還是會在這個範圍裡面"},{"start":17379.648,"end":17406.784,"text":"至於剛剛趙志偉在提到的審議跟質疑的差異審議大概是這個樣子就審議有決定權如果他是審議事項的話那這個這個審議會就可以做決定如果質疑的話是只有建議權那做出來的一個決定的話如果仍然還是要衛福部的同意但是因為這個條文如果現在這樣寫的話那"},{"start":17409.425,"end":17425.773,"text":"這一個審議會的那個召集人還是衛福部的部長或者指定之人那事實上就沒有太大的差異啦因為審議會也是保定管理嘛在那做出決議"},{"start":17427.113,"end":17444.271,"text":"如果說他是審議,他要去負責,那還是部長在決。但是如果說是質疑的話,那就是做出來的就是一個建議,還是要呈到部裡面有部,部裡面一一銷售進去。反正他的最高決定人都還是同一個人,都是部長。"},{"start":17450.677,"end":17451.357,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17483.097,"end":17506.182,"text":"所以我們所有委員齁就剛剛的這個文字修正第5條的部分還有沒有其他意見主席他明天要看到說明明天他們之前他說明天才能提供那個對明天那個說明的部分明天再補上來那針對文字的部分是不是沒有意見齁那就要照剛剛的這個文字修正通過第5條"},{"start":17507.822,"end":17508.883,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17536.223,"end":17536.803,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17556.954,"end":17557.955,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17583.038,"end":17585.2,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17609.74,"end":17612.081,"text":"謝衣鳯委員有第6條、第7條、第8條。那我們剛剛沒有...喔!對對對。第13頁第6條。謝衣鳯委員...對。"},{"start":17624.96,"end":17640.488,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案 第6條6、7、8的部分是因為他主要在處理的部分的話就是會在促進這邊跟產業發展這邊是有關係的比如說他在講的會是說在那個能力範圍內要跨列預算"},{"start":17640.908,"end":17641.248,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17664.648,"end":17670.473,"text":"好,那就謝衣鳯委員的第六、第七、第八就不予以處理。"},{"start":17671.657,"end":17696.158,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜採納。〉主席,請問現在是第6條,對吧?對,對,現在第6條。對,那針對院版第6條的部分,最後在第5款之後需要加一點點的確定,前項所述之其他政府機關及醫療機構、學術研究機構、學校或法人所需之條件,"},{"start":17697.159,"end":17697.88,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17723.396,"end":17723.796,"text":"邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":17745.751,"end":17771.42,"text":"可以齁,那個行政單位,可以嗎?可以。那就照王振旭委員的修正動議通過。好,那那個王委員的第6條齁,上面是中央主管機關的委由其他政府機關,可是在下面是那個委託,那這個文字是不是要委由跟委託?"},{"start":17771.94,"end":17775.122,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案 案 規定規定規定規定規定規定規定"},{"start":17801.806,"end":17803.708,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17830.529,"end":17854.551,"text":"所以都是委託的方式?所以上面那個委郵就改成委託,可以嗎?好,如果沒有其他的委任或委辦的需求的話,那委託應該是可以,如果可以符合的話,那就沒有意見。好,那上面那個就本來委郵現在改成委託,好,那委員還有其他意見嗎?"},{"start":17857.082,"end":17858.704,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17881.534,"end":17882.095,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17896.572,"end":17918.286,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案案 第10條跟第12條都在講的是產業促進的發展這原本就有兩個條例包括生技產業條例跟創新條例的部分所以我們是在院版裡面是沒有建議不予採納"},{"start":17921.018,"end":17949.079,"text":"謝衣鳯委員第10條及第12條不予採納。接下來是第二章章名。第二章章名的部分的話我們定義的是再生醫療人體研究人體試驗及研究。然後那其實是跟所有委員的提案的版本的章名是一樣只是條次章的結次不一樣。然後建議是大家能夠支持院版。各位委員有沒有"},{"start":17950.58,"end":17952.563,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":17960.87,"end":17985.096,"text":"接下来第7條第7條的部分的話我們這邊是因為過去在去年度開始產生了一些對於人體試驗這一邊的一個疑問所以我們在第7條的部分的話就明定醫療機構在執行再生醫療前除了有第8條第一項的規定的例外情形之外應該進行並完成人體試驗"},{"start":17986.956,"end":18005.944,"text":"各位委員有意見嗎?林月琴委員王振旭委員林月琴委員先我的是應該講第8條裏邊的第一項現在在講第7條我認為應該移到第7條來就是說應該把一般程序就放在第7條"},{"start":18006.864,"end":18007.305,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18031.274,"end":18031.674,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18047.003,"end":18048.706,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18062.085,"end":18086.466,"text":"免完成人體試驗的例外情形我們就在第8條來做處理。第8條的第1項我們講的就是說危急的生命或者是嚴重失能國內沒有適當的藥品醫療器材或技術這樣子的概念的時候他才能夠做所謂的例外。第二個是我們的現在特管辦法已經在核准的再生技術的部分他也免進行人體試驗"},{"start":18088.948,"end":18106.645,"text":"以這樣的概念所以所有的例外只有兩個情形一個是已經通過的一個是病情危急沒有適當方法的在第八條的是規定例外情形然後其中那個我們講的危急的這一塊的時候我們希望他限縮到個案"},{"start":18107.225,"end":18121.476,"text":"所以我們對於這個第一款裡面他應該的條件甚至是案例的限制跟倫理的規範還有其他應遵循事項然後我們其實就會做嚴格的限制而且他是主案申請跟我們中央主管機關來做申請"},{"start":18122.857,"end":18131.7,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）"},{"start":18151.365,"end":18153.147,"text":"再生醫療法草案案。"},{"start":18167.179,"end":18168.04,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18183.595,"end":18206.725,"text":"醫療機構執行再生醫療前,這部分要特別的跟大家做說明,如果你把他變成再生醫療的話,可能連自己本身都要做人體試驗,這個是我們在處理上把它改成再生技術,就能夠更確定第7條他需要適用的範圍,以上。好,陳昭之委員。"},{"start":18208.446,"end":18236.648,"text":"謝謝主席我們對於這一次這個人體試驗入法非常的肯定謝謝衛福部然後有關這個恩慈療法部分這個內容我們也是支持的但是就是有關這個危及生命或嚴重失能疾病且尚無適當藥品我們希望能夠再增加一些說明那就是我們的第九條醫療機構為治療危及生命或嚴重失能這疾病且國內尚無適當實在藥品而執行再生技術得檢附下列文件當中央局管"},{"start":18237.268,"end":18238.549,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":18266.48,"end":18268.562,"text":"愈勤委員愈勤委員愈勤委員"},{"start":18292.063,"end":18293.745,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18310.6,"end":18311.2,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18341.02,"end":18342,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18362.635,"end":18384.387,"text":"第七條,如果你們把醫療機構執行再生技術,把它改成再生技術,你們同意嗎?我是覺得王醫師的這個說法是有道理的,因為再生醫療它還是一個比較籠統的名詞嘛,它如果是執行再生技術,是不是就那個文字上是可以的?可以接受。"},{"start":18385.476,"end":18390.097,"text":"醫療機構執行再生技術前除有第八條第一項規定情形外應進行並完成人體試驗。"},{"start":18408.499,"end":18436.598,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療發展法草案案案例8是否就這樣子的話就不需要就免進行或免完成人體試驗先確定這一點對因為一個是根本來不及像第一款的部分的話他是根本可能沒有時間做而且他是個案然後第二個的話是施行前我們已經通過的已經通過的我"},{"start":18437.605,"end":18438.006,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18448.717,"end":18476.019,"text":"然後剩下要再做申請的部分就是等一下後面會講的他的依循的程序是第12條然後陳昭之委員在這邊講的第8條裡面的其實他剛剛講的事情其實都可以在我們的遵循的那個要要公告的辦法裡面去做處理可以嗎在立法說明立法說明裡面可以把那個所以這幾點那個市長您覺得都OK嗎就是第一個傳統治療無效是證明"},{"start":18476.94,"end":18477.601,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18491.817,"end":18492.317,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18507.392,"end":18508.033,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18527.512,"end":18528.573,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18556.411,"end":18556.812,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18573.96,"end":18575.041,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18596.474,"end":18597.035,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18622.432,"end":18622.992,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18638.872,"end":18660.618,"text":"我思考的點比較不一樣就是說第八條第一項他明文講說免進行或免完成人體試驗免進行跟免完成人體試驗這是不一樣的那他是免進行也可以或是你沒有完成也可以那基本上這樣寫起來就是免進行了啦"},{"start":18661.831,"end":18676.824,"text":"因為擇醫嘛,所以那這裡免進行或免完成其實就是等於免進行第一個,那這樣子完全都免,那連那個我們在講的這個叫第一期或是我們在講的是安全性測試都沒有"},{"start":18678.085,"end":18684.667,"text":"我們要不要談到說至少要第一期的安全性測試做20到80個這個試驗這樣子我覺得大家討論否則的話免進行是連安全性測試試驗都沒有第一個第二個第二款裡面講本法實施行前我們特管辦法裡面已經核准的這一些都要讓他直接許可"},{"start":18705.131,"end":18709.272,"text":"那會發生兩個問題第一個問題就是特管法我們要關門了那就是本法施行前你都已經許可我就讓你就地繼續許可可是從法律通過到施行中間空窗期很久欸不一定是馬上欸那這裡面再申請的或是補申請馬上送進來的怎麼辦"},{"start":18732.176,"end":18732.637,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18746.092,"end":18751.513,"text":"再生醫療法草案案 案 同意過的,他技術肯定沒有之後的好,也就是說我們現在未來要新申請的門檻會比較高,但是未來要新申請的這一些再生醫療的技術"},{"start":18769.039,"end":18789.669,"text":"應該會比過去申請的理論上更進化技術更好。那會跟農藥醫師一向說這個老的不好用的然後副作用大的都有許可結果新的副作用小的然後農藥殘留量低的然後對人體傷害低的反而沒有辦法再繼續開放"},{"start":18791.164,"end":18792.566,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18801.823,"end":18802.223,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18827.042,"end":18827.983,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18853.524,"end":18854.084,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":18881.253,"end":18906.918,"text":"謝謝主席。我剛剛針對十分委員所擔心的第一款就是危急生命或嚴重這部分到底要怎麼規範會最適當?第一項的文子。其實如果是針對第一款那部分我們現在是用恩慈的處置模式那個真的是要主案的來確認來做一些審議。"},{"start":18913.493,"end":18914.013,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18934.386,"end":18935.006,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18954.318,"end":18954.899,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":18971.775,"end":18993.745,"text":"所以部長所以就我們的法條的這個寫法是說是不用在國內進行可是他如果是在國外已經有進行的他有有一個有一個成效的話那要做恩賜把他引進來的話是可以的是這個意思對啊那你的寫法就不是這樣子了你的法律文字不是這樣子"},{"start":18994.71,"end":19014.885,"text":"免進行括弧在國外經過什麼樣的這個官方的認定的什麼資格以後你就免進行我們的恩慈的寫法是怎麼寫他其實就是寫這樣因為我們在我要講的是說有時候制定起來比較粗糙"},{"start":19015.816,"end":19018.438,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19045.577,"end":19070.525,"text":"國內找不到相關適當的藥品醫療器材或是醫療技術可以來所以他才會採用了一個國外的目前看起來好像可行的辦法來協助這個個案來做處理那如果是這樣的話文字上面條文的文字上面照你們原來的這樣但是在立法說明的部分是不是能夠把它加列進去可以我們來做修正"},{"start":19076.886,"end":19085.27,"text":"國外要到官方還是什麼的?國外的確偽造的實驗數據很多的。他們如果沒有經過官方或是經過什麼他自己宣稱我已經完成了二期了或是完成一期了後來大家都知道很多這個虛偽不實的"},{"start":19107.17,"end":19107.89,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19134.284,"end":19134.845,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19155.945,"end":19157.767,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19168.144,"end":19197.239,"text":"我跟大家報告今天講的是說因為我們要法治化所以恩恥療法是一個行政上的一個程序上的把關和一個一個一個辦法啦老實說那個法律位階跟這個不一樣那我現在思考的也不是說這個學術交流或是國際會議我是講說你要確如果我不曉得大家能不能在這裡先有一個共識這個共識就是至少要確定這個安全性"},{"start":19198.379,"end":19198.84,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19228.3,"end":19228.58,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19251.701,"end":19266.899,"text":"那IRB倫理怎麼審查是一回事我們這裡講是說政府國家和立法者要求一定你做的不管多麼緊急的這個再生醫療都一定會有安全性試驗的基本上沒有問題這樣子"},{"start":19270.886,"end":19271.627,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19287.438,"end":19287.978,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19311.725,"end":19312.806,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19340.179,"end":19340.52,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19349.625,"end":19371.38,"text":"道歉那我剛剛講第二款的問題你說三年一次審查那個不是我講的重點我講的重點是說大家有沒有想過這一款通過以後新技術而且更好的技術進來的門檻其實比過去的舊技術還更高你反而就是新的新的藥品不能進來舊的療效比較低的反而都一直繼續在那裡會不會有這種問題"},{"start":19372.543,"end":19373.265,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19386.66,"end":19408.332,"text":"因為我們要用的全體必須要財債已經沒有現行沒有現行已經有這個局限沒有辦法了所以無適當的藥品和醫療醫材或醫療技術我們的申請有兩種一種就是個案的另外情形是第8條通案的申請的部分也就是那個林委員在講的新的"},{"start":19408.872,"end":19411.173,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":19440.707,"end":19456.821,"text":"我覺得你沒有聽或是我問的你可能不能我沒有講到讓你了解就是舊的我並不是反對他們繼續循環或是繼續許可就是舊的讓他就地許可我沒有但是我的質疑是說"},{"start":19459.093,"end":19459.674,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19476.184,"end":19477.025,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19505.768,"end":19506.25,"text":"行政單位"},{"start":19516.9,"end":19537.855,"text":"他不是複製啦對不起就是說他不會說因為有A所以你不能有B啦他其實是能夠持續的依照需要來做處理嘛那剛剛另外講的那個蘇委員講的那個有關於要不要進行或免除那一部分那個安全我想我們可以從立法的說明裡面去把它補強"},{"start":19540.277,"end":19555.464,"text":"王醫師我可以請教你嗎因為我就有點不懂比如說我們現在特管法裡面許可了比如說某一種免疫細胞NK細胞好了大量的複製然後打回去治療肺癌比如說是這樣子好了"},{"start":19556.204,"end":19556.524,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19581.26,"end":19589.122,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜審查委員羅廷瑋等21人審查委員羅廷瑋等21人審查委員羅廷瑋等21人審查委員羅廷瑋等21人審查委員羅廷瑋等21人審查委員羅廷瑋等21人審查委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":19610.947,"end":19611.568,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19630.672,"end":19631.453,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19653.954,"end":19682.984,"text":"非常危急的狀態沒有藥可以治的沒有任何的治療可以使用的時候很危急的狀態但淑芬現在問的應該是第12條的狀況吧好那我在這邊是不是說可以照剛剛我們所講的這個修正文字通過大家看一下第7條我們第一項裡面的文字免進行或免完成人體試驗王醫師說在立法說明欄裡面說清楚但是大家怎麼寫所以這一條要先保養一下立法說明是不是你們明天一定要寫一下"},{"start":19684.326,"end":19684.666,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19713.973,"end":19715.414,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19744.605,"end":19744.625,"text":"第8條"},{"start":19766.638,"end":19767.439,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19778.291,"end":19806.047,"text":"第八條,那就照這個院版的通過,那說明的部分明天一定送上來。接下來第九條。第九條的部分的話,我們是將我們現行的人類胚胎及胚胎幹細胞研究倫理政策指引的行政規則提升到法律的位階,所以擬具了再生醫療涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞不得以下列方式來做處理。以上。好,委員。"},{"start":19807.816,"end":19819.085,"text":"各位委員有意見嗎?沒見。沒見。那就第9條就照院版的通過。接下來第10條。"},{"start":19820.936,"end":19842.831,"text":"第十條的部分的話是因為在我們的那個產生條件那邊是對產業的發展所以有特別有再生醫療法這邊的話是由我們中央主管機關或者是事業目的主管機關對於相關的研究發展給予獎勵或補助然後相關的程序的部分的話由我們中央主管機關會商中央目的事業主管機關定制"},{"start":19844.052,"end":19871.706,"text":"則其他委員的部分的話其實也跟我們的版本很像然後那那個除了謝衣鳯委員這邊在講的是一定要編列所謂的獎金的部分然後我們覺得獎勵的方式給我們一些彈性空間其實搞不好更有對於整體產業的發展的鼓勵以上是好那第10條各位委員有沒有意見沒有那就照院板的通過接下來第三張張明同意"},{"start":19872.779,"end":19897.424,"text":"同意好那就照院板通過接下來第11條11條的部分的話我們這邊就是強調非醫療機構不得執行再生醫療以杜絕現在其實我們怕的是醫美美容醫學這邊的亂象會再生所以我們就是直接就明定了後面的法則也連帶在非醫療機構這個地方有做加重的處罰以上好各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":19902.211,"end":19926.425,"text":"接下来第12條。第12條的部分的話也就是說我們在不管是要用再生醫療技術或者是特定的再生製劑的時候每一案都必須經過中央主管機關的一個同意必須要由我們中央主管機關跟我們申請核准之後向地方政府做一個登記才能夠做"},{"start":19927.145,"end":19927.885,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19944.753,"end":19945.853,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":19961.72,"end":19983.484,"text":"再生醫療法草案案件事項,主要還是以再生技術為主,所以我們就把技術跟指定的致敬的地方做了前後順序的調動,以上。好,各位委員有沒有意見?好,那第12條就照院版的通過。接下來第13條。"},{"start":19999.934,"end":20018.85,"text":"邱議瑩委員、羅廷瑋委員、王振旭委員、楊瓊英委員的部分是不是說明一下?這個地方的部分的話就是我們已到第8條的第一項的第一款的部分來做一些些的處理了。已經在相關的文字跟條文裡面有做處理。是。"},{"start":20020.936,"end":20021.658,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20028.049,"end":20051.176,"text":"第13條第13條的部分的話是針對執行再生醫療技術這邊的醫師他應該是該疾病相關領域的專科醫師這個資格有本就是中央主管機關公告相關的委員的文字內容的部分其實也跟院版其實是一致的希望委員能夠支持院版"},{"start":20052.208,"end":20053.069,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20069.005,"end":20071.066,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20097.662,"end":20100.887,"text":"那第13條是不是照院版的通過?好。"},{"start":20102.15,"end":20103.351,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20129.352,"end":20129.952,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20151.383,"end":20155.385,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":20179.654,"end":20181.636,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20201.698,"end":20202.438,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20220.046,"end":20221.467,"text":"陳昭芝委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":20241.644,"end":20244.965,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案"},{"start":20271.395,"end":20273.496,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「"},{"start":20301.251,"end":20302.512,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20318.726,"end":20321.167,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":20341.148,"end":20346.469,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜,請審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案件事宜,請審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20367.284,"end":20368.145,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20384.942,"end":20386.183,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20417.04,"end":20431.67,"text":"實驗室的查核的部分的話我們目前第一個是他要符合ISO然後或者是他是我們食藥署的那個所謂的分子檢驗認證的對象我覺得應該這個都太低太低層次了啦你們的那個規範是不是是在寫在那個製劑的那個範疇裡面啊"},{"start":20440.738,"end":20461.016,"text":"我跟你講這個再生醫療再生醫療裡面其實最大的風險就是在這裡體外複製感染汙染汙染應該講汙染啦細胞實驗室或者是細胞儲存或者是細胞培養的那個藥廠的那個規範應該是是不是在製劑的那個規範裡頭還是說你們這邊要補充把那個整個規範把它補充"},{"start":20466.85,"end":20491.706,"text":"這一個部分是這樣就我們現在再生醫療技術的部分的話在做細胞配置自備的時候是根據的是GDP也就是人體細胞組織優良操作規範那也不能講說這一個就是層次是比較低啦應該不是這樣他是因為GDP在處理的這種實驗室是要處理的"},{"start":20493.047,"end":20493.527,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20509.777,"end":20510.338,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20525.632,"end":20526.293,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20542.53,"end":20556.496,"text":"則我們也不只是只有優良操作程序的規範,那我們有沒有可能應該要訂出一些基礎規範,衛福部自己訂也可以,你總是要規定那個環境它的標準要達到什麼程度吧。"},{"start":20558.598,"end":20559.618,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20575.683,"end":20576.584,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20596.082,"end":20599.365,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20621.407,"end":20622.309,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20630.031,"end":20630.371,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20656.602,"end":20658.283,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20678.965,"end":20705.203,"text":"我執行業務提供病人使用而系販賣零售再生醫療致記者能因醫藥事法第15條第一項第一款申請為藥品販賣業者。意思就是說如果說在執行的過程裡面他本身是一個致記的話那這個是已經被確認過的東西在執行的時候呢就不需要再去申請藥商許可執照以上"},{"start":20707.751,"end":20716.157,"text":"這個可能那個王委員有一點誤會啦我們現在醫療機構讓我們跟藥廠拿藥進藥然後經過診斷然後醫師開了處方阿給別人捏藥阿也從來不必說藥商的許可阿那個不叫販賣所以我想這個不必要寫啦"},{"start":20732.424,"end":20732.905,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20747.287,"end":20770.292,"text":"這個傳統上就不是這樣認定,我們這樣一寫的話,可以造成混淆。現在其他就說,好,你再生醫療治劑的話,免那個藥商的許可執照。但是其他藥呢?醫院開藥給病人的話,是不是需要也要那個藥商許可證,因為那邊沒有寫。"},{"start":20771.092,"end":20772.093,"text":"第14條就先保留。"},{"start":20787.025,"end":20788.427,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20802.646,"end":20822.146,"text":"第15條的部分的話主要是在處理的是在做這樣子的一個再生醫療不管是我用技術或者是使用那個製劑的部分的話應該充分做說明這說明的部分的話包括了可能的效果或是不良反應費用跟救濟措施還有相關必要的"},{"start":20822.486,"end":20847.82,"text":"一些事項。然後那在執行前的時候除了說明以外重點是同意同意的部分的話應該要有就是病人或者是法定代理人配偶親屬等相關關係人的同意簽據同意書可以才算數然後除了這個以外的話那個前項同意書的內容的部分由我們中央主管定之主要在針對的就是說明告知的這個部分"},{"start":20848.521,"end":20849.542,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20860.441,"end":20879.368,"text":"第16條16條的部分的話是在講的是醫療機構在實在執行那個再生醫療的時候他必須做記錄這個記錄會比我們普通醫療法的7年要更長我們是在本法的草案裡面規定至少要保存15年而且到"},{"start":20880.168,"end":20880.668,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20903.704,"end":20930.862,"text":"前向紀錄的內容他怎麼去使用執行的日期場所甚至程序還有一些嚴重不良事件的話其實都是我們要做一些規定在那個紀錄裡面的以上補充然後那個許多委員的版本裡面其實跟院版的精神其實都一致所以希望大家能夠支持院版以上好各位委員有沒有意見沒有吼那16條就照院版的通過"},{"start":20933.965,"end":20935.286,"text":"第四章章明"},{"start":20944.762,"end":20947.102,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":20971.527,"end":20971.967,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21001.747,"end":21002.948,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21023.775,"end":21025.416,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21043.666,"end":21044.727,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":21072.961,"end":21073.441,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21094.758,"end":21095.278,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21111.718,"end":21112.298,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21130.673,"end":21131.474,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21146.247,"end":21146.767,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21165.18,"end":21165.64,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21195.08,"end":21196.18,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":21220.149,"end":21221.59,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21248.701,"end":21277.6,"text":"各位委員呃陳昭芝委員謝謝那個在這一條裡面我們是希望能夠還是回到一些倫理的考量因為國外就有發生過這個妹妹的出身就是為了捐捐贈血液期待來骨髓給姊姊的真實案例齁所以我們在這個就是第一第一項就是但顯有異於特定人口群或未能以其他對象取代者我們加了就是除胎兒無行為能力人外"},{"start":21281.567,"end":21304.794,"text":"另有關書面同意的部分提供者為限制行為能力或受輔助宣告之人時應得其本人及法定代理人或輔助人書面同意第一項提供者為受監護宣告之人或無意思能力之成年人時以同意時具意思表示能力者為限其書面同意有效"},{"start":21305.868,"end":21334.144,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜與特定人口群或未能以其他對象取代的竇點除胎兒、頓耗、無行為能力人外。」就是這兩群人要稍微要再排除。然後在書面同意的時候我們也訂了更仔細的規範。"},{"start":21336.135,"end":21336.856,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21351.915,"end":21353.356,"text":"第三項對號第四項規定在生醫療組織跟細胞來源的提供"},{"start":21367.174,"end":21386.929,"text":"則為胎兒、限制行為能力人、受輔助宣告之人、無行為能力人、受監護宣告之人或無意識能力的成年人取得的書面同意應經法院公正死身效力。」這個目的是在提高難度來降低如果有不法行為的可預期性來保護這些弱勢畢竟"},{"start":21388.51,"end":21388.95,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21409.417,"end":21433.771,"text":"我覺得比較有疑慮的是第一項的最後就是嫌有益於特定人口群或未能與其他對象取代者這個裡面特定人口群嫌有益於誰這個特定人口群到底是要怎麼界定或者是未能與其他這個對象取代者到底是講什麼"},{"start":21434.571,"end":21435.412,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21454.926,"end":21455.826,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21477.952,"end":21479.073,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「"},{"start":21502.894,"end":21531.26,"text":"那他會不會有衍生的那個利益上的糾葛或是你除了要知情同意要簽同意書以外那需不需要告知說這個要不要取得細胞過程要不要補償那會不會衍生的利益或不當的細胞買賣那這個東西要怎麼我覺得在這裡面我們不能當作說不會發生那我們如果當作它會發生的時候我們要怎麼把它限制起來框定起來"},{"start":21535.425,"end":21537.874,"text":"行政單位說明王委員"},{"start":21540.141,"end":21566.182,"text":"謝謝趙委員我稍微再確認一下就是有關於胎兒的部分我們也知道事實上目前並沒有實際有胎兒的產品來提供臨床上執行的部分不過因為這是一部比較前瞻式的法案很多未來性我們透過好的醫療科技如果現在就把它限縮得太嚴格的話"},{"start":21567.583,"end":21590.439,"text":"當然前提就是一定要有符合安全倫理規範的情形之下我們可不可以用不管是用立法說明的方式來解決剛剛不管是趙知委員或是蘇委員所提到的問題那字面上就先支持這個院板這邊的一些相關的文字說明以上"},{"start":21592.003,"end":21593.064,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21611.201,"end":21612.302,"text":"因為我們一直沒有定義特定人口群和未能與其他對象取代者的定義。"},{"start":21630.065,"end":21631.166,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21649.441,"end":21649.781,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21670.814,"end":21673.335,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":21701.531,"end":21728.696,"text":"他是這一個九個月以下的幼兒的這一個兇腺的組織拿出來然後去治療其他的偏偏性無兇腺兒童病人的免疫重建所以第一個他是液體的那沒關係啦我不是在說這個我這樣說也不要說特定限定特定人口群啊只要治療疾病的通通都可以啊"},{"start":21729.736,"end":21730.117,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21739.161,"end":21759.753,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案案 案 條文要再看清楚一下。第一個就是說提供組織細胞的是以成年人為原則嘛。然後再有一個線說說除了這種特定的比方說這種先天性無兇性兒童病人的"},{"start":21760.593,"end":21761.393,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21779.159,"end":21782.64,"text":"因為法律上又沒有這樣講說限縮在醫療所以你這個不是限縮條款搞不好有可能你是開更大的門的條款啊因為這邊是以成年人為限嘛對啊所以你不是限縮你有違憲但是你要開放例外可以用未成年的"},{"start":21798.084,"end":21798.344,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21816.196,"end":21843.269,"text":"呃這個成年違憲這一條條款吧我們要讓未成年的東西也可以再被取用那我們希望是限定在醫療這個領域我的意思是這樣子是那如果是這樣子的話那是不是我們的條文就是說在那個有醫師能力的成年人違憲之後的話但有益於治療特定人口群或未能其他以其他的對象取代者不再實現"},{"start":21845.05,"end":21871.953,"text":"我基本上是這樣子治療基本上是但是我們是不是可以暫時保留我們才能回去想一下這樣子是不是恰當胎兒跟無行為能力要先排除啊這我還繼續再說明一下啦胎兒的部分如果就是說他你這邊在排除的部分的話如果是"},{"start":21872.774,"end":21875.216,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":21890.766,"end":21907.498,"text":"所以如果胎兒不要去講不包括胎盤跟羊水的話那我們是可以同意就把胎兒排除掉胎兒不要去做為細胞的提供者"},{"start":21908.058,"end":21935.038,"text":"但是羊水跟胎盤的話這個是要取這個羊水跟取胎盤的細胞的話這個是相當安全的一個procedure以目前來講在產前的檢查的部分其實都有所以不要把它也禁止掉啦我的意思是這樣那個無行為能力就是主要是小孩子"},{"start":21936.8,"end":21963.923,"text":"除了7歲以下的小孩子都要無行為能力如果你把7歲小孩子通通排除掉就不能取他的胎兒的話那就我們剛剛舉的這一個就不能用了欸我們這裡是在提供者喔對啊就提供者啊提供者欸啊我就說這一張就看了嘛組織來源的也就是提供者是9歲以下的小孩子因為大9個月以下的小孩子因為大一點的話胸腺就沒有了就做萎縮了嘿"},{"start":21965.199,"end":21980.903,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬"},{"start":21995.482,"end":22018.836,"text":"欸抱歉我問這個很奇怪的問題我自己也突然想到說這個東西是母親的還是胎兒還是嬰兒的還是胎兒的在法律上欸這個東西胎盤、脊帶、羊水我們在法律上的定義是可以去做處理但是以基因上面來看的話他是跟胎兒是一樣的基因啦所以連胎盤都是嗎?"},{"start":22020.273,"end":22022.879,"text":"對。所以連胎盤幾代?但是胎盤比較複雜因為胎盤有一面是媽媽的"},{"start":22028.675,"end":22029.635,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22057.808,"end":22058.949,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22076.835,"end":22104.953,"text":"我剛還是沒有回答我齁因為從CRC的精神裏邊在講孩子最佳利益的時候應該要有一定的程序齁才能是晚輩的所以我剛還是沒有聽到你們回答是說我針對要增加所謂不是只有家長的意識這樣同意書就可以嗎應該不是這樣還要經過一定的程序所以我說是不是可行是取得的這些同意應該經法院公正使生效力"},{"start":22105.655,"end":22106.719,"text":"對不起,剛剛這個沒有先釐清了。"},{"start":22110.308,"end":22133.818,"text":"我們有跟法務部這邊也有溝通過啦我們是建議是這樣不要說如果要用公證來確保他有這一個同意是的效率的話那不要用法案公證因為法案公證的那個時間很長我跟各位報告一下齁我那個當初接那個契捐中心的董事長的時候後來換人"},{"start":22135.839,"end":22138.4,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":22173.317,"end":22174.097,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22202.469,"end":22203.05,"text":"第19條先保留。接下來第20條。"},{"start":22218.072,"end":22232.201,"text":"第二十條的部分的話其實是在講告知就是那個取得同意應該告知的事項然後這裡面就包括了就是說我要取得的方式可能產生的副作用或者是說"},{"start":22233.502,"end":22234.203,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22256.343,"end":22256.904,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22272.105,"end":22273.405,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「"},{"start":22301.894,"end":22329.796,"text":"第1項的第4款就是剩餘組織細胞之後去處理那個或可能之使用範圍變成的是使用範圍把或可能的這個事情拿掉的時候因為在事前要去做一個說明的時候可能對於使用範圍的部分我們的文字才會用可能之使用範圍所以希望委員能夠支持我們的願板以上好各位委員有沒有意見王委員"},{"start":22330.532,"end":22353.448,"text":"對,那剛剛司長所說明的就是或可能在第四款或可能是使用範圍相對是比較寬廣那當然它有好處不過也有擔心啦因為有時候會不會被因為這樣的形容詞之下導致在使用上會不夠明確所以如果說改成"},{"start":22357.61,"end":22382.104,"text":"其餘組織細胞之後續處置與使用範圍讓這個處理的過程裡面是比較明確一點這是我們提出來做這個修正的主要的一個用意以上好還有沒有其他委員有意見沒有那行政單位剛剛王委員講的是"},{"start":22383.055,"end":22397.156,"text":"我們是建議還是保留或可能因為在這裡的話可能有時候沒有辦法完全界定說這個還可以使用到什麼樣的一個程度"},{"start":22399.479,"end":22420.928,"text":"比如說我們取了這一個組織然後我們使用了那還有剩餘的剩餘的也許這一次失敗那下一次可能會有一個這個組織要做另外的engineering的方法"},{"start":22421.588,"end":22429.254,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":22451.309,"end":22454.071,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":22481.032,"end":22483.013,"text":"第二十條就照院版的通過就照委員王振旭等三人修正動議通過"},{"start":22507.685,"end":22509.528,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22525.615,"end":22553.294,"text":"接下來第5張張明張明的部分的話院板這邊是監督與救濟然後有委員部分的版本是寫著是監督與預防因為我們後面的條文主要是以救濟為主所以我們才會在張明的部分以監督及救濟的部分希望委員們能夠支持院板以上各位委員有沒有意見沒有那就照院板通過接下來第21條"},{"start":22555.256,"end":22575.143,"text":"二十一條的部分的話重點會在於是說對於廣告這邊的一個管理然後第一項的部分的話是針對就是說我們所謂的招募的廣告招募的廣告除了那個我們這邊在講我們會有那個所謂的組織庫保存庫這樣子的一個可以招"},{"start":22576.604,"end":22577.785,"text":"再生醫療法草案．一）審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":22602.617,"end":22603.398,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22622.113,"end":22623.213,"text":"各位委員有沒有意見?王委員"},{"start":22655.398,"end":22676.731,"text":"謝謝師長的說明其實這一部分在第二項有關於廣告醫師本身能不能廣告這個問題因為其實但是最近有被判一個違憲嘛所以我們是不希望又落入到那個困境裡面所以才說如果在這邊做一些調整的話再生醫療是廣告"},{"start":22677.991,"end":22701.172,"text":"現由經核准執行再生醫療之醫療機構與經核准執行再生醫療技術之醫師為之。」避免說後面又有人去說為什麼我醫師都已經被判定說不能廣告是違憲那你現在又把這個限制住是有這個思考在裡面以上"},{"start":22704.173,"end":22731.05,"text":"我補充說明的原因是因為在醫療法我們那個事先案我們在討論的是傳統醫療應該是說現在一般的現行的醫療它的風險相對也低那在這個情況下面的時候有大法官事先是說醫師也可以做廣告可是再生醫療我們會為什麼會特別創立一個再生醫療法就會希望這樣子的一個"},{"start":22732.01,"end":22756.077,"text":"風險相對比較高而且新興的一個醫療在他的草創的過程當中其實是能夠形塑大家正確的行為那這樣子的一個狀況下面再加上執行再生醫療這邊幾乎都是以團隊為之所以我們在希望的是說以這樣子的一個管理下面的時候應該是由特許核准的醫療機構他來做所謂的廣告"},{"start":22758.638,"end":22759.118,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22782.093,"end":22796,"text":"大家可以想象一下未來這個市場會是什麼樣子。第一個,再生醫療跟一般的傳統的醫療不一樣的地方是它要有一個細胞自備場所。"},{"start":22797.761,"end":22814.049,"text":"當然如果你做的規模小那可以在自己的醫院裡面去做那也許是可以的但是我相信到後來這類的醫院治社有這個細胞智慧場所的可能會越來越少除了他的一個都做醫療的"},{"start":22815.55,"end":22816.351,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22834.21,"end":22835.191,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22853.198,"end":22853.818,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":22872.566,"end":22892.74,"text":"就是會這樣子,在臺灣這種情形非常可能所以我們是認為說這個法要開始的時候還是要謹慎一點可能這一個部分要限縮一點那這個因為跟那個憲法那個事先案的情況是不一樣我覺得我們是應該可以站得住腳"},{"start":22893.868,"end":22895.069,"text":"陳少思委員陳少思委員"},{"start":22922.036,"end":22931.449,"text":"我也是跟部長的意見一致但我也想說其實我是覺得本來應該要再更限縮比部長講的還要再更限縮"},{"start":22932.642,"end":22952.353,"text":"就說大家可以想像一下這個再生醫療的廣告難道會是說我要解決關節炎然後讓你的皮膚這個修復會更好的嗎?絕對不是!這個廣告一定是要治療癌症啊!一定是以治療癌症讓大家不自知症的人覺得找到希望!他的功課的風雄就是去幾行的啦!"},{"start":22952.973,"end":22972.26,"text":"但我們知道這個治療癌症的第三期第四期的剛好剛好就是現在裡面我們在講說緊急的或是沒有有效的醫療方法的我們是排除了這個很多的限制直接就可以使用細胞治療法的也不用經過一期兩二期三期的"},{"start":22972.62,"end":22972.92,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23003.02,"end":23027.578,"text":"這一些違憲是勉強啦第一個第二個那個醫療廣告內容絕對要審查通過才可以沒有經過審查通過這個一個療程我告訴大家我一直講一個療程都數百萬一次要上百萬然後要一到好數百萬上千萬不是有錢人才會這樣做沒有錢的請加蕩產借錢也一定會來救自己的親人"},{"start":23028.539,"end":23037.786,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面要讓大家要規範說廣告的內容要讓大家知道廣告的內容要讓大家知道說這種是一個非常實習的特別例外許可他不是正規程序完成什麼的讓大家都知道這個實驗的屬性吧"},{"start":23048.752,"end":23075.854,"text":"不要以為這個就是細胞治療就是萬靈藥一千萬開下去就有效兩百萬開下去就有效你要讓大家知道這台八條例外條款裡面開下去沒保證有效存活率不知道一年不知道兩年我也不知道幾年總是要有規範啊我這也先做一個澄清啦因為我們現在要討論21條21條指的是招募廣告就是那個找那些要捐細胞組織的人"},{"start":23076.618,"end":23079.32,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23099.156,"end":23121.674,"text":"為什麼會把那個與經核准執行再生醫療技術的醫師會加進來的主要擔心的就是說醫療法就通過已經被這樣認定那為什麼我還這個地方要另外限縮不過經過大家的說明我們也可以清楚了解這個的確如果未來這個問題不是問題的話我想這個願板是OK的"},{"start":23127.569,"end":23128.11,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23156.972,"end":23158.653,"text":"再生醫療之廣告現今核准執行再生醫療"},{"start":23186.774,"end":23189.376,"text":"第二十一條就照院板通過。"},{"start":23202.542,"end":23222.249,"text":"二十二條的主要是在對於廣告相關的一些程序的部分我們做一些的管理包括他必須做預審這預審的部分的話我們會讓那個廣告的要刊登廣告的廣告的者他應該把他刊登的內容刊播的方式刊播的文件然後跟"},{"start":23223.149,"end":23223.889,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23238.815,"end":23241.716,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":23265.64,"end":23266.04,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23281.431,"end":23310.034,"text":"再生醫療法草案案案 第8條第1項第1款,也就是說為及的恩慈療法的再生技術是不得廣告的,因為我們很知道就是剛剛那個林淑芬委員在講的其實我們在這邊就直接寫在明文的法條裡面是第8條第1項第1款的再生技術不得廣告,其他應該應遵循的事項的部分的話我們大概都會由我們主管機關定之,然後希望委員能夠支持願板以上。好各位委員有見嗎?"},{"start":23311.415,"end":23311.675,"text":"三）繼續審查委員"},{"start":23340.597,"end":23342.119,"text":"再生醫療發展法草案案。」案。"},{"start":23350.128,"end":23378.68,"text":"欸我也想說齁你們第一項裡面那個不得救什麼什麼齁可不可以換一個方法寫我因為想到金管會齁投資買基金的時候都要有一個制式的官方要求的本基金什麼什麼然後那個風險要致富然後我所談的不一定是保證獲益什麼什麼的那或者是抽菸不是有個制式的乾脆我們衛福部應該建立一個制式的規範就直接講清楚"},{"start":23379.92,"end":23381.042,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23396.237,"end":23397.018,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23418.136,"end":23436.984,"text":"我們立法說明欄可不可以我們要把我們在這裡獲得共識的這個旨意要清楚的寫到立法說明欄裡面要清楚的寫說我們在第一項裡面的應載名的這個文字是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":23438.385,"end":23442.129,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23462.304,"end":23463.265,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":23486.851,"end":23494.113,"text":"第二十二條就照院版的通過那說明的部分明天是明天再一併送上來那我們是不是先休息一下因為已經兩個小時了先休息五分鐘"},{"start":23530.089,"end":23531.95,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24049.377,"end":24050.118,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24066.186,"end":24067.927,"text":"二）繼續審查委員二）繼續審查委員二）繼續審查委員二）繼續審查委員"},{"start":24096.347,"end":24118.539,"text":"獲禁禁止繼續刊播的廣告的部分的話每個委員的版本大概差不多然後那因為我們特別是強調未經核准或者是與核准事項不符的我們新增的這個部分然後那對於是傳播業者接受委託的這個6個月內的話要保存相關的一些資料以及後面的查核的部分然後第三項的部分的話"},{"start":24119.339,"end":24121.4,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24148.985,"end":24149.545,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24169.239,"end":24189.747,"text":"新申請的第12條這樣子的一個再生技術他都必須在每一個年度終了後的6個月內像或者是我們特別通知他的期限內提出報告然後前項報告的內容的部分包括了案例效果不良事件以及其他經我們中央主管機關指定的事項然後我們"},{"start":24190.547,"end":24191.228,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24210.905,"end":24237.373,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案 第24條。沒有齁,那就照院板通過。第二十五條。二十五條的部分的話指的是說我們醫療機構使用所謂指定的再生製劑或執行再生技術。如果有後面講的嚴重不良事件的時候應該通報中央主管機關。通報的期限方式。抱歉我剛才24條我有意見。"},{"start":24238.766,"end":24239.327,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24253.663,"end":24254.924,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24279.042,"end":24279.923,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":24303.766,"end":24304.086,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24322.876,"end":24340.949,"text":"就是法律上在治療前不確定治療以前他的這個療效但是呢在結束之後我們希望因為糧又不起啊這個做的人很多、夾子很多但是機率不一樣我們現在說的是機率不一樣那透過公開透明的資訊至少我們可以讓病人找一個"},{"start":24349.415,"end":24350.256,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24370.595,"end":24371.355,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":24398.027,"end":24398.667,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24414.942,"end":24434.814,"text":"請行政單位說明可不可以請委員看一下院版的第24條的第二項第二項裡面就在講前項報告的內容應包含案例數效果不良事件及其他中央主管機關指定的事項然後所以剛剛委員就叫的案例數效果跟不良事件你講這個講錯了前項報告是講這個再生技術者要跟你們報告的"},{"start":24441.118,"end":24442.519,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":24466.269,"end":24487.457,"text":"因為他們要跟你們結果報告,結果報告要包含案例數、效果、不良反應及其他中央主管機關指定的這個事情。這個事情為什麼我們不放心?因為現在就有特管法了。特管法也這樣子規定。特管法你現在這個條文都跟特管法幾乎都差不多一模一樣,就差在最後一項德跟因而已。"},{"start":24488.337,"end":24488.937,"text":"二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":24513.576,"end":24520.853,"text":"這部分的話那特官法相關的這一些數據的話那我們是重要簽辦當中那下個禮拜之前就公開"},{"start":24523.913,"end":24542.078,"text":"邱議瑩委員我大概知道淑芬要的是什麼東西但是我可能要用一個病友的身份來跟淑芬委員報告一下如果依照特管法現在他們能夠公佈的數據特管法有做了幾項的治療"},{"start":24543.058,"end":24543.719,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24553.643,"end":24554.203,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24573.8,"end":24574.34,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24592.156,"end":24593.457,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24611.454,"end":24614.116,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":24639.855,"end":24641.075,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":24669.526,"end":24670.047,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24688.496,"end":24710.127,"text":"但是我覺得就目前為止可能你們接受的案例效果不良事件我覺得反而不良事件是應該要被注意的因為這個其實就是會牽扯到失作的機構他們對於他們的細胞的提供跟他的技術的這個良率我覺得這個可能是衛福部要去做更精確的統計"},{"start":24712.076,"end":24713.197,"text":"陳昭芝委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":24729.048,"end":24729.529,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24746.972,"end":24746.992,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":24777.212,"end":24778.474,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24800.29,"end":24828.857,"text":"我今天要講的是根據報導者的文章我也講過報導者文章訪問了一個本土生技公司的總經理他好奇他也做了很多私下接案還有執行許多地下化的細胞治療三年內賺了3億元但是他也講說為什麼要限制階段癌症這個治療其實他一直認為說其實在越早期治療搞不好效果越好"},{"start":24829.657,"end":24850.347,"text":"但是他說前端要放寬就是說你放寬到第一期第二期搞不好是放寬的但是後端要收集數據公布療效他就是這樣子說不然像現在好的生技公司細胞跟不好生技公司的細胞的差別好的跟不好的公司的細胞的差別"},{"start":24851.648,"end":24857.012,"text":"消費者無從知道業者的優劣競爭會不出來,所以他認為是說他自己主張要公佈療效,攤在陽光上讓大家都知道。所以今天在這裡就是說"},{"start":24867.719,"end":24868.199,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24888.747,"end":24912.782,"text":"對,就是把他治療一次的或治療兩次的這種區隔出來或再一次以後就跑掉了,那就沒話說嘛,第一個。第二個就是說那你持續接受治療的現在還存活一年的有多少人?現在持續接受治療,持續治療然後治療一年的然後他存活率多少?治療這個存活率兩年的有多少?"},{"start":24913.943,"end":24926.301,"text":"我的意思是說,好了,我現在再回過頭回到本來我問你們的問題到底業者要跟你們報告什麼業者要跟你們報告什麼我們再來談論說你們要公開什麼"},{"start":24927.87,"end":24928.491,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24955.171,"end":24955.851,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24980.086,"end":24980.926,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":24998.692,"end":24999.533,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25016.224,"end":25016.905,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25033.943,"end":25034.764,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25048.82,"end":25075.675,"text":"自療的順序的這件事情搞不好就會產生所謂的生存活率的這個地方的改變然後也因為這樣我們目前只有就是收集的是他到底接受了哪些到底先後順序這邊我們是沒有辦法收集的然後再來的部分的話是回推到最終的所謂的算是收案結束的這件事情一個是這個病人沒有接受繼續的治療一個是他是死亡"},{"start":25076.135,"end":25077.396,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25095.302,"end":25095.662,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25113.51,"end":25114.09,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25134.44,"end":25134.94,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25165.724,"end":25179.69,"text":"那我可不可以再請教一下廠商給醫院的這個有效的細胞你們用什麼這個程序誰去把關他說我這裡面有1100個NK細胞誰在把關誰確定食藥署這邊會幫忙做一個每一次每一個治療的在計劃開始的時候在開始的時候其實會有做製程的一個確認"},{"start":25194.062,"end":25195.023,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25223.024,"end":25246.456,"text":"當然這個藥商或者是生技商他必須要取得食藥署的藥證那醫生選擇跟哪一家藥廠跟哪一家生技商合作這關乎自己醫生本身的信譽跟他的醫療所以醫生他一定會慎選跟他合作的廠商誰來把關醫生來把關如果他覺得這一家藥商出的細胞有問題"},{"start":25247.617,"end":25249.518,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":25275.925,"end":25277.287,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25298.729,"end":25299.67,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25327.25,"end":25332.952,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療是相關的,因為合併治療、輔助治療這麼多,我覺得這太難去處理,但是到底要不要在嚴重不良反應才通報,這個也是一個點。第二個我要講說,你們到底對醫療機構叫他要給你報告的品質有哪些項目?第一個你是說你們合併治療、輔助治療的項目有哪些"},{"start":25352.879,"end":25381.314,"text":"那你們收案的這個統計你們收的案的那個級別這個疾病的級別那你們收案結束的時候的統計資料是未積蓄或死亡或是達成療效打了幾劑那他現在的現況是怎麼樣大概聽起來就是這樣子啦對嗎那那對啦那我再問你說如果只是這樣子也沒關係啦那你未來要公佈的是不是全部都公佈"},{"start":25385.111,"end":25385.932,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25408.348,"end":25409.728,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25430.772,"end":25444.367,"text":"我剛好是退款辦法的委員另外我也在醫院工作基本上剛剛村委員所擔心的問題我在這邊稍微做一個說明"},{"start":25445.359,"end":25473.292,"text":"就是說當一個產品經過確認好以後他出廠出廠要用到這個個案之前他有一個check in list這個check in list是一開始就已經規範好的他一定要符合什麼樣的數目的標準他的出廠才算是有效的出廠如果沒有符合當初的規範那個出廠是要被重新處理的"},{"start":25473.892,"end":25475.233,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25492.947,"end":25520.778,"text":"因為這些其實都是經過食藥署還有剛剛講的GDP是要被驗證的所以如果這個資料有錯誤或者是有任何欺騙的話他是應該要被處罰的這是目前我們所知道的執行情形那另外就是有關於這個結果的部分那依照這邊我們看到的就是當初在特管辦法裡面就有要求"},{"start":25521.698,"end":25522.879,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25537.526,"end":25538.526,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25556.471,"end":25557.292,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25574.793,"end":25575.333,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25593.899,"end":25597.18,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":25625.073,"end":25645.408,"text":"所以這個是可以等一下再麻煩部長或是市長這邊就說明就是說這一些的內容的公布的需要如何能夠細緻到不會對各自造型的影響之下可以讓民眾知道說曾經有過多少的這個治療經驗那他是什麼樣的癌別他是在哪一個階段治療"},{"start":25645.968,"end":25647.969,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25665.579,"end":25666.379,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25685.367,"end":25685.927,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25715.134,"end":25716.055,"text":"陳昭芝委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":25736.297,"end":25737.278,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25754.44,"end":25755.22,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25778.19,"end":25793.519,"text":"這是一個高昂的費用帶著那個一線希望而且資訊是不對等情況下我們怎麼能夠保障大家的權益呢所以我提到倫理學那我個人認為不能依靠依靠依賴自律如果依賴我們也可以依賴全民的自律啊我們都不要法規了"},{"start":25794.159,"end":25794.479,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25820.151,"end":25820.731,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25839.042,"end":25839.703,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25862.475,"end":25862.995,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25891.161,"end":25891.641,"text":"邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":25910.738,"end":25911.979,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":25939.119,"end":25939.5,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":25961.099,"end":25987.39,"text":"要多久有一個這樣的報告數字給立法院我覺得這個可能可以在提案說明頭去增加謝謝好淑芬委員抱歉我比較難以接受說就這樣子先通過因為呢我們也不能說這個剛開始施行不久這已經做了6年了6年裡面關於這個膝關節軟骨缺損的皮膚作者的凹洞的疤痕填補的修復的數據其實你們都有沒有療效都公佈出來了"},{"start":25988.59,"end":25990.331,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26003.715,"end":26006.796,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":26032.545,"end":26059.844,"text":"這個標準還是審議委員會通過的就公佈這一些啊那再來就是說你還要再補充說明這個裡面有什麼變化我就不要談及涉及個資再更精準的說明也可以啊但其實我也是主張說這裡面你即便是有效的因為是綜合輔助的合併治療輔助治療所以也讓大家知道說其實啊這個細胞治療它只是綜合治療的其中一種"},{"start":26060.524,"end":26062.045,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":26089.358,"end":26090.539,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26109.855,"end":26110.856,"text":"今天是第11屆立法院第一次第一天逐條審查。"},{"start":26131.543,"end":26148.027,"text":"難道就不能夠讓我們再有多一點時間來思考嗎你言必稱說我們上屆審查過了上屆是上屆我們這一屆是這一屆這一屆是第一天第一次逐條審查我們為什麼不能夠再思考仔密一點讓我們回去好好想一下呢對那個我沒有等一下我覺得這個講話已經意氣了"},{"start":26156.792,"end":26157.212,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26176.264,"end":26187.671,"text":"因為這個法條不是今天提出來,一個月前就已經詢答結束了。你要認真思考,你要看的時候,一個月前你就應該看法條了。好不好?第一個,第二個,我們大家都內行人在委員會審法案審這麼久了。經常委員都跟行政部門說,你提一個,這個照我們的意思,你提一個修正動議來看看,我們來參考你的修正。"},{"start":26202.259,"end":26202.579,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26218.15,"end":26222.795,"text":"呃,這一條已經討論好幾輪了啦齁,那個趙姿委員也講過...不是,你現在要求我馬上長出文字,我為什麼沒有提對...好啦,好啦,這邊先聽我一下齁,因為剛剛也好幾位委員都講過兩輪了啦齁,那不然我們就這一條齁,第24條先保留啦,好不好?"},{"start":26240.553,"end":26241.054,"text":"第二十四條我們就先保留接下來第25條"},{"start":26254.022,"end":26254.662,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26282.399,"end":26298.776,"text":"是在後面的條文裡面有去做一些描述所以建議謝衣鳯委員的不予參裁其他的希望大家支持院板以上。好那針對第25條大家有意見嗎?沒有齁那就按照院板的那謝衣鳯委員的就不予採納"},{"start":26302.027,"end":26302.287,"text":"二）繼續審查委員"},{"start":26319.673,"end":26345.301,"text":"第二項的部分的話其實就是針對就是他已經停止了這邊的話應該要說明理由然後再由像主管機關機關申請同意然後前兩項的一個停終止的部分的話會在我們的那個期限內他要檢據一些所謂的後續因為我們把他停止了然後停止之後就會有一些後續必須處理的事情包括他應該要對於他"},{"start":26348.142,"end":26373.619,"text":"已經有的組織、細胞、甚至檢體、甚至執行紀錄的一個後續處理計畫書,經由中央主管機關核定以後再做後續的處理。然後我們針對的那個要停止或終止的部分的這些行為的部分的話,其實跟委員的版本裡面的內容的意思大概差不多,所以希望委員能夠支持願版。以上。"},{"start":26374.358,"end":26400.246,"text":"第二十六條委員有意見嗎沒有那就照原版通過第二十七條二十七條的部分的話針對的就是說如果執行我們第八條第一項第二款就是現在的細胞治療或者是經由第十二條第一項的再生新申請的再生技術如果發生了需要救濟的事情的時候相關的範圍"},{"start":26401.286,"end":26403.226,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26427.352,"end":26449.169,"text":"其他委員的版本裡面其實精神上面跟我們那個院裡面的版本其實是大致雷同的所以希望委員這邊能夠支持那個院版以上各位委員針對27條有意見嗎沒有那就照院版通過接下來是第6張張明"},{"start":26452.045,"end":26462.099,"text":"第六章章名的部分是指罰則,罰則部分所有委員的版本都一致。委員有意見嗎?沒有,那就照院版通過。接下來第28條。"},{"start":26465.21,"end":26492.277,"text":"二（二十八條的部分的話我們是針對就是說特別是強調我們分成兩大兩大應該主要是分成兩大項第一項是非醫療機構的處罰我們把它提升到就是說處罰兩百萬到兩千萬然後特別是針對違反第11條非醫療機構執行再生醫療還有就是說違反二十一條第二項就是非"},{"start":26494.358,"end":26517.836,"text":"醫療機構為再生醫療廣告的部分,把它拉高了那個罰則,因為過去的醫療廣告的部分的話大概罰5萬到25萬啦,所以對醫療機構這一塊,非醫療機構這一塊我們希望就是拉高罰則,然後讓不當的廣告免得去誘導民眾,然後那對於醫療機構這一邊的話大概我們就是會處就是20萬到200萬這邊的罰則,然後我們可以看到"},{"start":26522.776,"end":26524.117,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26549.77,"end":26550.03,"text":"三）繼續審查委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":26568.806,"end":26569.867,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26589.385,"end":26606.214,"text":"應該要酌情。」所以我希望能夠在立法說明的部分,中央主管級會應訂定廣告處理原則,酌審違反情節、累計違反次數,就累犯當然要加重啦,違法所得的利益或其他等因素為划緩額度之依據啦。"},{"start":26607.294,"end":26608.875,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26630.284,"end":26647.612,"text":"再生醫療法草案 案 違反第9條規定以禁止行為進行涉及胚胎或胚胎幹細胞質再生醫療研究。院版的話事實上是放在第31條相對的事實上罰則是比較輕的處罰是5到50萬可是在這邊我覺得這件事情還蠻嚴重的因為為什麼因為"},{"start":26655.675,"end":26658.296,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":26678.984,"end":26689.872,"text":"再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查"},{"start":26706.914,"end":26724.47,"text":"違規之情形得處6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑否則一直再犯的話你好像似乎對他一點辦法都沒有因為這是非醫療機構嘛如果他又再度的所以我這邊建議提出修正動議以上那請行政單位說明一下"},{"start":26742.286,"end":26744.19,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26746.847,"end":26773.764,"text":"我們先針對就是說委員在講的第9條的部分那第9條的部分我們會列在5萬到50萬的部分的話是因為這個目前違反人體研究法的部分的法則就是執行沒有經過允許的他的在人體研究法裡面的法則是5萬到50萬啦然後都是由醫療機構來執行的部分所以我們才會在比例原則的部分是把它列在5萬到50萬"},{"start":26775.365,"end":26786.063,"text":"然後那因為如果是說沿用就是我們的醫療法裡面如果針對就是說醫師如果執行的是"},{"start":26787.759,"end":26788.279,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26815.333,"end":26816.193,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26833.2,"end":26833.58,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26862.14,"end":26864.103,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":26882.816,"end":26905.728,"text":"因為在行政法上面的話,比較少用這樣子所謂的壘犯那種概念。通常他用的是暗刺,可以暗刺連續處罰。你這本給我罰到了,下一次看到還是再繼續罰。抓到一次就罰一次就對了。"},{"start":26909.308,"end":26932.863,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案案 案次累計處罰的概念。」三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 案次累計處罰的概念。」三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 案次累計處罰的概念。」三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 案次累計處罰的概念。」三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 案次累計處罰的概"},{"start":26936.906,"end":26950.842,"text":"不過那個這一次我們提出來28條的最後一項齁我們最後一項有一個齁就是說那個可以沒入齁沒入這一個執行再生醫療的設備及再生治劑啦"},{"start":26953.907,"end":26978.833,"text":"所以就是說有這個第一項的也就是非醫療機構去從事從事這種再生醫療的行為的時候那可以把他的工具那跟他所有的這一這些字跡的話就把它沒入掉了那等於說他的生產工具我們就把它沒收了"},{"start":26980.924,"end":27004.763,"text":"我補充一下剛剛醫師法的刑度的部分是6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑密醫所以在刑度這部分的話本來我們就會串聯到醫師法的部分去做密醫的處理我剛剛還是提到行政法上面比較沒有所謂的累犯加重的這樣子的概念而是用按次連續處罰用這樣的方式"},{"start":27009.844,"end":27023.095,"text":"那這個應該不用不一定不一定是要寫在寫在這個法條上面因為他本來就是可以這樣子按次連續處罰一按一按就處罰一次就一次那剛剛那個部分可以用在那個立法說明嘿嘿對在立法說明當中好可以嗎那這個第28條就照院版通過好不好"},{"start":27038.137,"end":27039.741,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27043.373,"end":27071.065,"text":"第二十九條二十九條的違規的情形的部分的話是認為情節稍微比較輕一點所以我們的處罰是二十萬到兩百萬然後可以限期改善前面28條的是抓到一次反一次就沒有限期改善的這個空間因為覺得那個行為上面比較嚴重然後二十九條的部分的話除了限期二十萬到兩百萬罰金稍微低一點以外就是限期改善"},{"start":27071.425,"end":27072.626,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27099.074,"end":27099.494,"text":"在修正動醫"},{"start":27153.012,"end":27161.561,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案 、三）繼續審查委員羅�"},{"start":27175.712,"end":27196.118,"text":"剛我們這一條是保留耶就是第19條我們剛是保留所以如果要處理那個主席現在的那個修正動議的話那可能我們就就要連帶保留阿如果您不堅持的話我們就先通過好那就保留那我們就好保留那29條也有"},{"start":27207.355,"end":27226.622,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）"},{"start":27232.099,"end":27236.02,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":27261.425,"end":27272.349,"text":"支持院版。」委員有沒有意見?沒有意見。委員沒有意見,我們就...好,沒意見。好,就按我們的行政院版本。好,通過。接下來第31條。"},{"start":27278.268,"end":27298.87,"text":"三十一條的部分的話主要是針對就是情節相對上面也是比較輕微可是他沒有辦法有改善的部分所以我們就是是說儲新台幣5萬到50萬然後那在這個裡面的話其實就都"},{"start":27302.254,"end":27318.608,"text":"以邱議瑩委員這邊的話其實跟我們在講的是第一款這邊的精神是相符合的所以是不是請委員能夠支持願版以上委員有沒有意見沒有就按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":27321.048,"end":27322.929,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":27342.717,"end":27343.738,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27362.054,"end":27381.626,"text":"三、三十三條的部分的話主要是針對的是處罰的主體啦。然後如果是法案的部分的話對於私人、私立的醫療機構就是處罰負責醫師。然後對於那個法人的部分的話其實就是處罰法人。然後那個照"},{"start":27383.807,"end":27388.409,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":27412.097,"end":27414.598,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":27435.549,"end":27455.654,"text":"對我們醫療法而言所謂的私立醫療機構的負責人其實就是醫療法裏面在講的然後我們不會有委員版本裏面提出來的因為我們負責人在私立醫療機構就是負責醫師以上委員沒有意見我們就第33條造行政院版本通過"},{"start":27463.624,"end":27464.925,"text":"在臺灣民眾黨這邊提案第33條在79頁"},{"start":27472.183,"end":27473.524,"text":"二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":27495.034,"end":27496.915,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27520.023,"end":27523.744,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「"},{"start":27546.189,"end":27571.334,"text":"是中央主管現在在判斷所以我會期待是要你們有清楚的一些依據就剛剛有提到那廣告的處理的話可能是在地方其他大概都在中央在中央的話就比較那個不需要說另外再去訂那一個處罰的標準但是在地方的話有時候會怕各地方這一個不依然那我們希望這個再生醫療這個雙法都要嚴格啦"},{"start":27573.114,"end":27574.195,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27591.364,"end":27615.659,"text":"此事我們是可以做的。但是那個所得利益的部分的話會有一點點麻煩啦,不容易啦,那個是不容易。那昭之委員同意再放在我們的立法說明。好,那我們就第33條造行政院版本通過。"},{"start":27618.217,"end":27631.184,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":27650.915,"end":27651.636,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27671.963,"end":27690.47,"text":"第16條的部分的話其實在推動的部分的話其實是都是一直在講的是發展法這部分然後所以相關的一個比如說在在檢討或政策的推動的部分因為我們在原本的法律裡面就有定所以我們會建議不予採納了"},{"start":27692.263,"end":27692.544,"text":"三）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具"},{"start":27711.059,"end":27712.019,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27729.909,"end":27757.945,"text":"沒有的話我們就依行政院版本好那接下來第35條三十五條部分的話是講施行日由行政院定之然後各位的版本其實也都一致希望支持院版委員有沒有意見沒有就按照行政院版本好那接下來就先休息五分鐘好休息結束繼續我們的審查再生醫療制藥條例的自給條例的草案那現在休息"},{"start":27760.342,"end":27761.143,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":27776.603,"end":27793.108,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案 判断权额 判断权额 判断权额 判断权额 判断权额 判断权额 判断权额 判断权额"},{"start":28196.698,"end":28213.059,"text":"現在進行討論事項第二案再生醫療制計條例草案之主條審查以行政院提供條次為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著再請委員表示意見"},{"start":28215.673,"end":28231.293,"text":"法案名稱是再生醫療自治條例那大部分委員都跟我們的行政院提案是一致的那只有幾位委員有提到在法案名稱裡面還有管理"},{"start":28232.034,"end":28256.509,"text":"但是我們這個立法除了是對於再生醫療自己全生命週期的管理以外也希望一個好的立法能夠促進產業發展所以我們是敬請能夠支持行政院所提的法案名稱委員們有沒有意見沒有沒有我們就照行政院版本通過接下來第一條"},{"start":28258.49,"end":28258.991,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28287.87,"end":28291.912,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":28320.863,"end":28331.758,"text":"第三條是有關定義的部分就是我們提到再生醫療字跡他是指含有基因細胞或是他的衍生物供人體使用的字跡"},{"start":28332.899,"end":28358.237,"text":"那這個也大概是委員們所提的都跟我們是一致啦。那個那其中像劉建國委員他是有提到是說要把在前一項再生他在第二項裡面提前項再生醫療制計署要釋法第6條規定製藥品那因為我們在說明欄是有說了已經有提了所以是不是請就支持我們行政院的版本"},{"start":28359.655,"end":28379.87,"text":"告知委員請判決我剛好是意見一樣本來我也覺得這樣比較清楚沒有後續的爭議就是本例所稱再生醫療之一鬥典屬藥事法第6條之藥品所以署長你說這個寫在在說明欄有在說明欄但是加一句在這裡也不差不是很清楚嗎還需要再說明嗎有問題這樣可以嗎剛好我跟劉建國委員意見一樣謝謝"},{"start":28384.113,"end":28384.553,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28409.779,"end":28432.455,"text":"請問這邊是不是可以針對剛才他們兩位的,那文字上可不可以再做,另一邊再做確認。再一句話而已。我,我詢問一下齁,直接加在這裡跟放在立法說明的差別是什麼?就是說對你們來講。是一樣,是一樣,所以,如果要寫過來我們也可以修改。"},{"start":28433.493,"end":28435.295,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28450.489,"end":28478.351,"text":"第三條就是趙琉建國委員等三人修正動議通過。接下來第四條。第四條是有關再生醫療字跡的分類。分別就有基因治療字跡、細胞治療字跡、組織工程字跡、還有複合字跡這四大類。我們包括對於各項字跡它的說明也都有在上面入列。"},{"start":28480.192,"end":28495.579,"text":"請支持我們行政院的版本。委員除了劉建國委員跟謝衣鳯委員他們沒有把簽合就是他們沒有把我們的複合字跡放上去了。我想我們這樣子應該是更完整的。各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":28502.222,"end":28505.385,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〉"},{"start":28530.246,"end":28541.959,"text":"業者應聘用國內外大學院校以上醫藥或生命科學等相關科系畢業,並具有細胞學、衛生醫學或免疫學專門知識之專任人員駐場參與製造。"},{"start":28546.644,"end":28547.405,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28566.476,"end":28567.036,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28591.909,"end":28595.911,"text":"除了後面有規定要大學院校以上的醫藥或什麼相關畢業可是他畢業不見得他是在裡面當藥師"},{"start":28615.019,"end":28623.474,"text":"所以他才會希望特別再把這個應有專任藥師駐場監視及等等的這個文字入法以上我們的邱議瑩委員"},{"start":28630.264,"end":28651.259,"text":"我提一下我的意見就是說每一個藥廠他一定是有藥師我們在藥事法裡頭其實就有明文規定但是再生製劑他其實藥師能夠參與的角色並不太大所以這裡的寫法是寫說由專任藥師駐場監製我覺得監製這兩個字會有一點問題"},{"start":28657.01,"end":28673.995,"text":"所以我的建議其實就是你的藥廠本來就應該聘用藥師其實我不用在這裡多寫但是我在這裡寫的就劉建國委員寫的是駐場監製這件事情我覺得會有一點跟我們原來的想像是會有一點不太一樣的"},{"start":28675.034,"end":28689.049,"text":"跟委員報告對因為我們再生醫療自己他本來就是要評那這些藥廠他本來就要聘藥師住場監製所以這個是一定是要做的對所以本來就是有這樣的一個規定"},{"start":28691.09,"end":28691.97,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28718.783,"end":28719.224,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28737.736,"end":28760.485,"text":"第六條是有關不管是我們藥品的許可證或者是合與有付款的許可都必須是應該要向中央主管機關申請查驗登記那另外我們這裡第二項的部分也有提到如果我們合與前項有付款許可應先經再生醫療審議會之審議通過"},{"start":28763.906,"end":28790.013,"text":"那輸入第一項再生醫療字跡應由藥品許可證或有付款許可之所有人或其授權者為之那委員們的意見跟我們的都是方向都是一致的請支持我們行政院的版本各位有沒有意見支持行政院版本好那我們就第6條照行政院版本通過那接下來第7條好謝謝"},{"start":28795.612,"end":28811.068,"text":"第7條這邊主要是說有關經核准製造輸入之再生醫療製劑應經中央主管機關核准使得變更藥品許可證或有付款許可"},{"start":28811.648,"end":28831.962,"text":"及原查驗登記事項,那藥品許可證及有付款許可移轉時應辦理移轉登記,所以有變更或者是移轉,這個都要經由中央主管機關這邊核可,那委員們的提案跟我們的也是一致,那懇請支持行政院的版本。"},{"start":28832.542,"end":28861.117,"text":"其他委員有沒有意見?沒有。沒有就按照行政院版本通過。接下來第8條。好,第8條就是講那個有效期間。就是依照我們第6條第一項規定發給的藥品許可證,它有效期間是5年。期滿如果仍然需要繼續製造輸入的,因應有效期間屆滿3個月前至6個月之間,申請中央主管機關核准展延。"},{"start":28862.177,"end":28885.025,"text":"每次展演不得超過5年,要品許可證效期屆滿,沒有申請,或者是經否準展演者,那就喪失了這張許可證的效力,那就由中央主管機關來註銷。其他如果說有污損遺失,那續名理由也是必須要向中央主管機關這邊申請換花或補花。"},{"start":28886.505,"end":28887.066,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28905.988,"end":28928.964,"text":"那他申請的條件,要檢附的文件、資料、審查程序、核准基準、收費及其他相關事項,那中央主管機關都會定職。那委員們所提的跟我們的其實都是一致,所以也請能夠支持行政院的版本。委員們有沒有意見針對第8條?沒有,就按照行政院版本通過。接下來第9條。"},{"start":28932.013,"end":28935.715,"text":"第二期臨床試驗並經審查風險效益,它具有安全性及初步療效者。"},{"start":28957.127,"end":28972.073,"text":"則附加付款和與有效期間不超過5年的許可,其滿不得展延。那前向危及生命或是嚴重失能之疾病,得以申請查驗登記前向中央主管機關這邊申請認定。"},{"start":28974.614,"end":28974.774,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":28992.245,"end":28992.565,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29011.886,"end":29013.068,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29031.539,"end":29032.24,"text":"三）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具"},{"start":29051.479,"end":29052.32,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29075.751,"end":29077.835,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29087.225,"end":29087.886,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29108.754,"end":29135.971,"text":"謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案案 中斷為恩治療法的寬限規定,所以院版的比較只有針對於危及生命或嚴重失能的疾病,是不是可以加我的修正動員國內尚無適當藥物或合適替代?"},{"start":29137.635,"end":29163.53,"text":"療法者增加這些字眼。第二個要就教是在你這個必以核給就這個5年有效的那個條件的期限許可是不是可以先就這個就5年一次然後不得展延可是有沒有再重複核發所以我就說這邊如果沒有的話那當然就不用可是有的話我們會期待就是說必以核給一次違憲"},{"start":29165.872,"end":29190.194,"text":"再來就是再增加第二項中央主管機關對取得前項有條件期限許可的那個字跡得依風險程度公告使用該字跡的醫療機構範圍跟醫師資格。再增加第三項也就是未符合前項公告範圍的醫療機構或資格的醫師不得使用該再生醫療字跡。"},{"start":29193.274,"end":29220.535,"text":"跟委員報告,委員在這個整治危急生命或嚴重失能的疾病後面就是有提案是要多加且國內上午適當藥物或合適替代療法者但是現在有的一些藥物他也有可能對於這個病人他的治療效果是不好的所以我們的線說是在於危急生命或嚴重失能其實都是嚴重的疾病"},{"start":29221.195,"end":29221.635,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29243.288,"end":29263.07,"text":"所以請委員可以同意我們原來的那另外是說中央主管機關對於取得前項有條件期限許可的字跡因得醫風險程度公告這個這些醫師的資格就是醫療機構的範圍跟醫師資格這個在在我們再生醫療法那邊有規定"},{"start":29263.67,"end":29290.545,"text":"所以如果能夠就是用再生醫療法那邊的我們這裡不用再加這樣子的話看看市委員是不是覺得這樣適合那沒有全沒有符合前項公告的這些醫療機構或資格的醫生不得使用這個這個其實我們在再生醫療法那邊也是有是所以是不是請能夠用我們行政院的版本是那我也沒有其他意見你就第9條就按行政院版本通過那接下來第10條好謝謝"},{"start":29299.859,"end":29317.911,"text":"第10條就是針對付款的說明。就是我們在前條的第一項所定的付款應包括下列的四項。那第一項是執行療效驗證試驗並定期或於指定期限內繳交試驗報告。"},{"start":29319.432,"end":29319.912,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29335.399,"end":29335.599,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29360.054,"end":29361.515,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":29387.982,"end":29406.952,"text":"第11條有關提供者的合適性。第11條是說,再生醫療制劑是取自人體的組織細胞製造者,其製造或輸入業者應該要確保這個制劑來源提供者之合適性,使得製造或輸入。"},{"start":29408.272,"end":29408.873,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29427.35,"end":29428.471,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29447.353,"end":29474.437,"text":"可以依照另外還有台灣民眾黨這邊也有提案執行相關傳染病及其病原篩檢或測試沒有導入這些相關的沒有導入傳播還有擴散相關傳染病病原或疾病的風險那這些其實都是在我們之後會定的執辦法裡面都會詳細所以是不是請委員可以支持我們行政院的版本這個不能放在母法嗎"},{"start":29475.077,"end":29475.737,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29502.347,"end":29519.738,"text":"因為蘇委員這裡是附帶決議他以後我們定在我們以後第11條對第11條在執法規的時候放入那文字呢這就是"},{"start":29523.561,"end":29546.954,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件的文字。如果可以的話,我們就把這個附帶決議並就通過。就照行政院版本,但是有通過蘇巧惠委員的附帶決議。我們都會不會比較清楚,執行相關傳遞件。附帶決議。蘇委員所提的,我們可以,所以是不是就,那民眾黨提的這個呢?"},{"start":29549.813,"end":29551.457,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29558.404,"end":29558.824,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29584.83,"end":29609.256,"text":"我這邊有修正綜藝是不是增列第三項也就是說因為取自體的細胞的話自行使用的藥劑所以應不涉及到第三人權益所以自得授權主管機關應該要有些寬鬆判定所以增列這第三項那請那個衛福部表示意見"},{"start":29615.346,"end":29642.961,"text":"包括委員我們也是會在執法規裡面詳細的去把它呈現出來所以是不是因為那我們在執法規那邊好那就按照行政院版本11條按照行政院版本通過好謝謝委員那剛剛蘇巧惠委員提的那個附帶決議我們就列入可以是謝謝好那就照樣通過好那接下來第12條"},{"start":29646.95,"end":29673.212,"text":"第12條主要是知情同意所以在這裡就是對於為供製造再生醫療製劑而以國內取得人體組織細胞的提供者以有意識能力之成年人為限但顯於有意於一特定人口群或未能與其他對象取代者不在此限那前項的組織細胞在取得之前也要獲得提供者的書面同意"},{"start":29674.813,"end":29691.02,"text":"第三項是前項書面同意提供者為胎兒是應得其母書面同意,若是限制行為能力人或是受輔助宣告人之人應得其本人以及法定代理人或輔助人。"},{"start":29691.84,"end":29696.945,"text":"再生醫療法草案案 案 等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 等19人擬具:「再生醫療法草案 案 等19人擬具:「"},{"start":29721.884,"end":29735.94,"text":"陳昭芝委員發言。第12條剛剛我們之前相對應的《再生醫療法》是保留嗎?因為有關因為是對應的是同一件事。林月琴委員"},{"start":29737.872,"end":29764.987,"text":"那因為剛剛再生醫療法就期待事實上在第三項第四項的這些所謂談的這些所有人取得書面同意的話應該還是要有些公正所以我覺得這邊還是要比照以上好我們也會回去因為我們剛剛再生醫療法的這一條就保留了我想這一條好那就12條就先保留好那第12條就先保留"},{"start":29765.785,"end":29766.705,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29789.514,"end":29803.845,"text":"那所做成的再生醫療制劑一定的適應症還有適用對象那這些組織細胞取得的方式還有相關的包括可能會有的副作用病化症、化生力等等這些都一定要清楚的跟提供者來說明。"},{"start":29805.166,"end":29806.147,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29826.176,"end":29846.147,"text":"獲得這些的話,如果過程當中有發生了不良反應的相關的一些醫療照護補償及處理,還有可能衍生的利益跟歸屬,可能個人資料的保護等。所以這個我們相關的這個那委員所提的跟我們的應該都方向都一致,所以也建請能夠支持行政院的版本。"},{"start":29847.383,"end":29850.626,"text":"再生醫療自治的廣告就依照藥師法裡面藥品廣告的規定。"},{"start":29871.827,"end":29874.009,"text":"第15條是有關招募廣告的內容不得有誇大。"},{"start":29891.163,"end":29894.184,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29915.911,"end":29917.012,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29937.975,"end":29963.389,"text":"所以是不是我們就維持我們行政院的版本。好。林月琴委員因為這個涉及到比較龐大經濟利益而且可能存在危害健康的風險所以我認為是不應該委託民間團體來代為執行政府的公權利益所以政府應該執行審查因為這邊行政院版本有寫說或其委任委託的機構或法人"},{"start":29963.889,"end":29964.77,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29981.579,"end":29982.499,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":29996.445,"end":30000.647,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":30020.373,"end":30046.129,"text":"第三項有,請委員是不是看一下第三項?第三項的部分是有限期改善。那第四項這個是未經核准的當然就馬上要把它停掉,沒有限期改善的問題。那與核准的事項不符,那這部分的話。也是例子,限期改善就是已經。已經廢止了那當然。就停止,好謝謝。"},{"start":30048.612,"end":30049.192,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30065.444,"end":30066.265,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30094.262,"end":30120.356,"text":"第16條主要是在規範相關的GMP跟GDP那這個藥商都必須要依照我們藥師法裡面的規定是藥師法第53條之一還有第57條的一個規定以上那因為在藥師法畢竟我們這個法是藥師法的特別法所以請大概委員的方向也跟我們是一致那是不是可以支持我們行政院的版本"},{"start":30121.22,"end":30123.282,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30130.711,"end":30149.581,"text":"第17條談的是有關安全監視計劃所以經過核准製造輸入之再生醫療制計經中央主管機關得指定品項期間令藥品許可證或者是有付款許可之所有人依公告或核定之安全監視計劃監視其安全性"},{"start":30152.082,"end":30155.184,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":30181.081,"end":30181.601,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30198.915,"end":30215.228,"text":"因為避免為了監視這個安全性資料造成個人隱私遭侵犯的問題所以是不是可以要再加入幾個字無法辨識當事人就相關安全監視資料與該許可證或有付款許可之所有人署長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":30222.751,"end":30249.936,"text":"因為我們還是對我們最主要是說這樣的病人在做一些安全監視的時候沒有比較希望能夠去掌握他的情況如果完全都去識別化有時候是有一些我們也要一樣要看病例啊一樣要知道是怎麼回事但是你是給許可證的持有人欸對但是現在給藥上的時候可不可以去那個無法辨識當事人之這個資料"},{"start":30252.376,"end":30252.876,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30279.361,"end":30280.802,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30308.444,"end":30309.104,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30333.361,"end":30357.852,"text":"因為這一個部分的話跟蘇巧惠委員的那個附帶決議是有關係的啦也就是說那目前大概有這樣子的風險的資料的時候是由醫療機構提供給這一個廠商嘛那廠商要把資料提供給衛福部"},{"start":30359.133,"end":30359.914,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30380.586,"end":30381.267,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30396.606,"end":30407.218,"text":"所以這裡可以加嗎?在這裡的話是可以但是必須要考慮到一個後果因為這些安全監視資料的話應該要報給那個主管機關"},{"start":30413.098,"end":30422.972,"text":"主管機關如果覺得說這一些有問題的有不良事件的必須要進一步去做調查的話因為沒有這些部長因為明天會再處理"},{"start":30427.934,"end":30428.495,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30450.351,"end":30462.67,"text":"我先跟委員報告我們的藥品安全監視管理辦法裡面有提到就是必須要依個人資料保護法跟相關的法規規定辦理對所以其實對於個人的資料都有一定的保護嗯"},{"start":30465.64,"end":30486.709,"text":"站在這裏啊,再生醫療這個,這個都是因為...那個是,變產是不能辨識的,對不對?他只是不能辨識當事人而已。對,不過我是建議說讓CLS回去看看現在的藥品是怎麼樣做。我們一支線的處理就好,是不是?好,那不然我們就17條先保留。好,17條。對不起,所以那個附帶決議可以一起帶進來嗎?這是相關內容,是。"},{"start":30492.409,"end":30510.578,"text":"其實剛剛部長講的內容跟附帶決議寫的是差不多是一樣包括那個署長寫的所以如果說陳委員同意的話那我們通過17條然後也通過這個附帶決議這樣其實是會比較更完整一點啦就是蘇巧慧這個翻頁翻頁翻頁17條"},{"start":30518.644,"end":30518.664,"text":"第18條"},{"start":30546.842,"end":30568.68,"text":"第18條是有關來源跟流向的資料。藥商跟醫療機構應保存再生醫療自己供應來源及流向資料。對於保留的資料的範圍保存方式與期限還有其他應該遵循的事項這個辦法就會由中央主管機關這邊來訂定。那這邊我們"},{"start":30572.463,"end":30579.754,"text":"我看委員們的方向跟我們也都是一致,那建請能夠支持我們行政院的版本。約情委員。"},{"start":30583.574,"end":30612.409,"text":"第三項因為在再生醫療法案的那個第16條也有規定那個期限是15年是不是這邊也一併處理因為我們現在各種治劑他的情況不同在國外他們一些管理單位有的可能會要求的像說5年有的10年有的甚至更長那像以現在這種基因治療的有的都是很小的小孩他搞不好就出生就治療了那那個一二十年對他們來講也都不算長"},{"start":30613.109,"end":30640.992,"text":"所以我們會針對字跡的種類的不同會有一些要求是所以會在你的在第二項的時候會特別去提那個視線嗎對好那第18條是不是照院板通過好通一好謝謝還有一個18條之一18條修正動議林月琴委員提的修正動議18條之一"},{"start":30644.504,"end":30670.435,"text":"十八條之一這裡是針對再生醫療製造販賣業者還有醫療機構應建立長期追蹤機制那這也是跟資料的保存這個保存的這是一致然後如果有發生一些不良反應的其實我們有相關的安全監視計畫"},{"start":30672.736,"end":30699.878,"text":"那這裡是應該就是說對於這一些相關的這一些事項應該還要有個委員會再來審議我們再生醫療自己安全監視及長期追蹤報告那也跟委員報告齁其實我們已經對於安全監視計畫就有一個小組一個諮議小組持續在做那這裡的齁其實就是在我們那個小組裡面我們會來執行是那是不是這種就不用另外再訂"},{"start":30704.937,"end":30706.242,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30710.999,"end":30736.65,"text":"對因為我們在18條那裡就針對相關的從資料的保存流向那更前面的又有安全監視所以這些其實應該能夠把這些這些部分給都會有涵蓋進去嗎對如果有不良反應也是都一定要跟我們通報的是所以包含我剛剛這第二項這邊特別去提到有這樣子的一個審議的那也會是在前面的審議"},{"start":30740.563,"end":30740.583,"text":"葉齊武"},{"start":30766.189,"end":30783.459,"text":"這一條大概是這樣子第一項的部分那這個我可能要我們要考慮一下因為再生醫療字跡那他用在病人的身上之後的話要去追蹤嘛這個是那個林委員你的你本意是這樣子嗎"},{"start":30784.56,"end":30802.963,"text":"但如果是這樣子的話是否是應該是在再生醫療法裡面的那一個追蹤因為再生醫療法是包括你使用的再生技術或者是使用再生醫療字跡那通過的字跡都必須要列入在追蹤嘛"},{"start":30803.964,"end":30829.215,"text":"這一個部分的話應該是在那個由醫療機構來追蹤然後要把資料給衛福部應該是這樣而不是去責成那個販賣業者或製造業者因為如果販賣業者跟製造業者的話那就會扯到我們剛剛那個那一條18條是不是"},{"start":30830.555,"end":30832.116,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30857.017,"end":30857.737,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30874.904,"end":30875.784,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30892.532,"end":30892.892,"text":"再生醫療法草案案"},{"start":30922.752,"end":30923.833,"text":"〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〉"},{"start":30953.113,"end":30953.913,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":30966.781,"end":30989.513,"text":"所以這樣是18條也要做保留然後18條之一建議一下好不好就是說剛剛部長提到的那個部分其實跟我們剛剛再生醫療法第24條在談的那個通報機制跟報告的那個機制是有相關那剛剛我們24條是保留嘛那如何把林月琴委員的這個概念跟這個"},{"start":30990.333,"end":31018.868,"text":"再生醫療法草案案 案 文字把他併到再生醫療法的第那個24條裡頭去讓剛剛幾個幾位委員要關心的就是我們在追蹤的那個部分能夠文字上更完備是不是也請衛福部今天晚上回去把它做一些做一些微調那我們就不增列第18條之一啊好就是我們把林委員的這個概念把它放到再生醫療法那反正我們明天還要再回來處理"},{"start":31023.683,"end":31025.524,"text":"再生醫療法草案 案 。"},{"start":31054.193,"end":31081.011,"text":"第19條是使用取得有付款許可之再生醫療之際發生不良反應致死亡障礙或嚴重疾病的依所附加之付款來進行相關的來辦理那如果是有藥品許可證的再生醫療之際就適用藥害救濟法之規定那委員們的提案跟我們是一致也請支持我們行政院的版本"},{"start":31081.711,"end":31084.652,"text":"第二十條開始是罰則所以如果有下列各款的情形那罰款是三萬以上兩百萬以下"},{"start":31098.078,"end":31100.019,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":31118.349,"end":31142.766,"text":"違反第15條第4項規定,就是刊播未經核准與核准事項不符以廢止核准或經令立即停止刊播之招募廣告。第三款是違反第15條第5項規定,未依規定期限保存資料或保存資料不全或規避、妨礙或拒絕提供資料。"},{"start":31143.546,"end":31162.228,"text":"第4款是違反第15條第6項鎖定辦法當中有關招募廣告刊播地點之規定所以最主要都是對於這些細胞組織提供者他的一個招募廣告相關的一個規定那我們的提案也跟我們的一致那請支持我們行政院的版本"},{"start":31163.429,"end":31165.051,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":31188.573,"end":31189.494,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":31211.557,"end":31237.642,"text":"第二十一條也是有關罰則的部分那划款也是三萬到兩百萬那包括第一款衛醫第五條第二項規定聘用具相關學歷及專門知識之專任人員這個就有划然後違反第六條第一項規定沒有取得藥品許可證或有付款許可就製造或輸入的那第三款是違反第七條的規定"},{"start":31239.042,"end":31260.023,"text":"未經核准擅自變更藥品許可證,那對於有付款許可或者是原查驗登記事項,或者是說有擅自移轉,這些都有這一條的罰款。那第四款是違反第11條第1項的規定,為確保提供者合適性就擅自的製造或輸入再生醫療字跡。"},{"start":31260.803,"end":31285.117,"text":"第五款是違反第十二條第一項本文的規定那不是以有意識能力之成人人之組織細胞來製造再生醫療製劑那第六款是違反第十二條第二項規定沒有在取得組織細胞之前就先獲得提供者書面同意或者是沒有依同條第三項第五項有關同意權行使的一些規定來辦理"},{"start":31286.458,"end":31309.959,"text":"第七款是為依第13條第一項的規定,與取得同意之前就應該是要告知該項所列的事項。第八款是違反第13條第二項所定的辦法當中有關告知的方式或者是程序的這些規定。第九款是違反第14條第一項的規定,不是藥商就來招募這些提供細胞組織的這種廣告。"},{"start":31312.121,"end":31326.51,"text":"第10款是違反第17條第1項規定,藥品許可證或有付款許可之所有人未依公告或合併安全監視計劃來執行,或醫療機構沒有提供安全監視資料。第11款是違反依第17條第3項鎖定辦法中有關安全監視報告的內容,繳交期限或監視期間的規定。"},{"start":31340.578,"end":31361.861,"text":"第12款是違反第18條第一項的規定,沒有保存資料。那第13款是違反第18條第二項所定的辦法當中有關保存資料的範圍保存方式或保存期限。」所以這個那委員們跟我們的相關的版本都一致,那請能夠支持我們行政院的版本。"},{"start":31362.441,"end":31386.759,"text":"陳昭芝委員陳昭芝支持那剛剛因為蘇巧慧委員她提的附帶決議是只有第17條那這裡又提到再次提到那個安全監視資料本來我們是建議說再加上一個無法辨識當事人是安全監視不過如果那個17那個附帶決議是不是把這一條也放在裡面因為蘇委員她只提到第17條但是那個21條沒有提到"},{"start":31388.416,"end":31389.536,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":31412.761,"end":31431.125,"text":"無法辨識當事人的資料。其實一致而已。一致而已。剛剛的決定是說條文通過嘛。附帶決議也通過嘛。對。現在附帶決議裡面是只有17條。沒有這一條。所以陳委員的意思是說。要不要。要不要。但是因為那個是舒喬二委員提的。"},{"start":31431.565,"end":31450.401,"text":"所以可能是要看...那就一致性...如果剛剛大家同意他17了那進來...就在...可能不能去改他...因為他不在了...所以是不是委員...你再提一個附帶決議...我們民眾黨版本上面就這樣子建議...我們用附帶決議來處理嘛...一致嘛...附帶決議..."},{"start":31452.322,"end":31454.063,"text":"第二十一條就先保留"},{"start":31467.199,"end":31471.46,"text":"第二十二條是本條例有關再生醫療自治之管理事項主管機關的定期或不定期稽查就是說讓我們把稽查就明定在法裡面"},{"start":31494.403,"end":31495.144,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":31509.974,"end":31513.338,"text":"第二十三條本條例施行日期由行政院定之。委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":31527.285,"end":31542.435,"text":"沒有意見好那就照院板通過那報告委員會做一下決議再生醫療法草案9案與再生醫療制計條例草案9案均審閉一輪本日會議到此結束明天早上9點繼續審查現在休息"},{"start":31561.361,"end":31562.643,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"}]}},{"id":"152325","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152325","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71deb4e0eaea944904f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac7cd96134d60f48eef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:20:34 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11:28:21","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":467,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:28:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:20:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1195,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時20分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，前陣子豪雨連連，我首先要讓你看一下這幾張照片，現在是西瓜的採收期，本席收到很多農民的陳情，最近因為連續下雨，雨水浸泡導致很多西瓜裂果，包括臺西、四湖、東勢、二崙、西螺等等都有農民反映受災，昨天本席已經邀請了農糧署一起去勘災，田裡面的確有非常多西瓜有裂果的狀況，面對農損的災情，農民都面露無奈，苦不堪言！農民都是看天吃飯，卻因為天候不穩定，造成裂果等損害。請問部長，是否可以儘速宣布將雲林的受災西瓜田納入天然災害救助補助？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，因為天候關係造成作物受損的勘災有一定的流程……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個我知道……"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果符合的話，我們就會儘快。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前據我所知是臺西、四湖、東勢的四方會勘已經確定達到補助標準，我就問部長，請問1公頃西瓜田補助多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該6萬2左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：6萬2。既然符合標準，開始啟動天然災害救助，希望部裡面可以從速、儘速地進行相關的流程。"],["陳代理部長駿季：一定會，四方會勘結束以後，縣府就會報農糧署，我們很快就會核定了，如果四方會勘過的話，就沒問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，你看一下，這個瓜裂成這樣，整片田都是，整片田都是裂瓜，所以拜託我們部長，天然災害的救助要從簡、從寬、從速，能夠儘速地來幫助農民減少損失，是不是可以？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一定會針對相關現勘結果儘速地發布。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，謝謝。部長，我想要請問您，花生年產值大概是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：花生一年1萬8,000公頃大概30多萬的產量，然後看它的產地價，產地價現在大概是70幾塊嘛！"],["張委員嘉郡：算起來大概是20多億，將近30億，在這其中，雲林大概占了8成左右，再請教您，花生的產期是什麼時候，您知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：花生的產期分一期作及二期作的部分，然後一期作……"],["張委員嘉郡：一期作是幾月，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：一期作大概5、6月的時候開始採收……"],["張委員嘉郡：對，二期作？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在我們收到的是去年二期作的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，去年二期作，二期作就是11月到12月……"],["陳代理部長駿季：11月、12月，對。"],["張委員嘉郡：對。當時我們加入WTO的時候，我們把配額內的額度分散在非產期，以避免對產業產生太大的衝擊……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：配額內的關稅較低，在花生產期內，也就是6至7月，還有最主要的11至12月，如果要進口，就是配額外進口，關稅比較高，大概在每公斤64.5元的關稅之上要加21塊，請部長記住21塊這個數字，照理來說，配額外的進口花生因為關稅較高，其進口的成本比國產的花生還要高，理應不會有太大量的進口量，但要請部長看一下相關的數據，112年11月印度進口100公噸，112年12月印度進口202公噸，112年12月阿根廷進口100公噸，這是從關務署所調到的相關數字，在去年配額外的時間，印度及阿根廷竟然有大量的花生進口，估算這個時間點進口的花生成本其實大大超過了國產花生成本，是不是應該去瞭解為什麼這個時間點會有大量的花生進口呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想112年因為遇到小犬颱風，我們的產量有適度地降低，所以我們的價格還不錯，比起前幾年，因為貿易商往往會認為它的價格不錯的時候，如果用國外進口的話，可能會比較好賺，所以我們在評估可能會有一些因為這樣子而進口的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這不是不可能，但是我算一個簡單的算術，好不好？你自己再看，這上面寫阿根廷106萬除以21理應就是12月的進口數量，印度53萬除以21應該就是印度的進口量，結果阿根廷是繳納了大概50.7公噸的額外關稅，印度是繳納了大概25公噸的額外關稅，50加25等於75公噸，但是明明就進了100加202公噸，那剩下的227公噸到哪裡去了？你聽得懂嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解，但是相對的，他有進口資料的時候，他就會去繳稅，他不可能進來，賣了以後，再繳稅……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！對啊！所以就很奇怪啊！那個消失的227公噸去哪裡了？現在坊間盛傳、去年就有聽聞，可能有駐外單位使用關稅法第四十九條之相關免稅規定進口，本席不願意猜測……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不可能，這個絕對不可能。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以我要拜託農業部去查清楚，就算保存在保稅倉庫，也是需要倉庫租金的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：如果長達2、3個月之久，真的划得來嗎？所以我在這裡要慎重地拜託部長，一定要仔細調查，將相關的報告回復本席。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這個部分可能跟關務署有關，我們會去瞭解，因為整個進來之前相關的報關都是關務署在處理的……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這一點要拜託部長嚴查……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會去瞭解。"],["張委員嘉郡：最後，本席想要提的就是臺灣從2002年加入WTO之後，目前花生的關稅為64.5塊，是不是應該提高這個基礎的關稅額度？因為近年來工資、材料成本都大幅提高，時空環境變遷之下，應該要有所檢討，這一點也拜託部長研議，也請部長為農民著想，一定要提高這個基礎的稅額，才有辦法保障農民一整年辛苦農作的成果。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，那個稅不能隨便我們今天想調……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，但是你要努力嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我會用更好的產業支持方式去協助我們產品的競爭力，而不是用關稅去保護……"],["張委員嘉郡：那是不是可以拜託部長把你更好的支持產業的方法提供一份……"],["主席：部長，再提個書面資料給張委員，好不好？"],["張委員嘉郡：書面資料給本席，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，好。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝陳部長。","接下來，馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","李柏毅、李柏毅、李柏毅委員不在。","洪申翰、洪申翰、洪申翰委員不在。","李彥秀、李彥秀、李彥秀委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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生產期內也就是6至7月還有最主要的11至12月如果要進口就是配額外進口關稅比較高那所以呢大概在每公斤64.5元的關稅之上要加21塊那請部長記住21塊這個數字照理來說配額外的"},{"start":232.927,"end":233.407,"text":"一、二年11月印度進口100公噸。（"},{"start":249.036,"end":278.279,"text":"一二年十二月印度進口202公噸一二年十二月阿根廷進口100公噸這是從關務署所調到的相關數字那在去年配額外的時間印度跟阿根廷竟然又有大量的花生進口那估算這個時間點進口的花生成本其實大大超過了國產花生成本是不是應該去了解為什麼這個時間點會有大量的花生進口呢我想"},{"start":278.979,"end":298.777,"text":"一百一十二年因為遇到小水颱風所以我們的產量有適度的降低所以我們的價格還不錯比起前幾年所以貿易商往往會認為說他的價格不錯的時候我如果用國外進口的話我可能會比較好賺所以我們在評估說可能會有一些因為這樣子而進口的"},{"start":299.758,"end":306.803,"text":"不是不可能但是呢我算一個簡單的算數好不好你自己再看下一個這上面寫阿根廷106萬除以21理應就是這個12月的進口數量然後53萬再除以21應該就是印度的進口量結果阿根廷是繳納了大概這個"},{"start":322.094,"end":343.129,"text":"五萬多公斤左右的稅所以他只繳納了就是50.7公噸的額外關稅那印度是繳納了大概是25公噸的額外關稅所以50加25等於75公噸那但是明明就進了明明就進了100加202公噸那剩下的227公噸到哪裡去了"},{"start":350.609,"end":357.585,"text":"你聽得懂嗎?我了解但是相對的當他有進口資料的時候他就會去繳稅他不可能進來以後再繳稅"},{"start":359.364,"end":363.867,"text":"所以啊所以就很奇怪啊那個消失的227公噸去哪裡了現在坊間盛傳去年就有聽聞說可能有駐外單位使用關稅法第49條之相關免稅規定進口本席呢不願意猜測但是所以我要拜託我要拜託農業部去查清楚如果呢"},{"start":383.48,"end":407.892,"text":"就是就算保存在保稅倉庫也是需要倉庫租金的阿如果長達兩三個月之久真的划得來嗎所以我在這裡要慎重的拜託部長一定要仔細調查將相關的報告回覆本席我跟委員說明齁這個部分可能跟公務署有關我們會去了解齁因為整個的進來之前相關的報關跟他都是公務署在處理的"},{"start":408.953,"end":410.195,"text":"臺灣從2002年加入WTO之後目前花生的關稅為64.5塊是不是應該提高基礎的這個關稅額度"},{"start":425.054,"end":444.443,"text":"因為近年來工資啊材料成本都大幅提高那施工環境變遷之下應該要有所檢討這一點也拜託部長演議也請部長為農民著想一定要提高這個基礎的稅額才有辦法保障農民一整年辛苦農作的這樣子的成果"},{"start":445.1,"end":462.173,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,那個稅不能隨便說我們今天想考慮的。我知道,但是你要努力嘛。我會用更好的產業的支持的方式去協助我們的產品的競爭力,而不是用官員的方法。那是不是可以拜託部長把你更好的支持產業的方法補充一份股市面資料給本席,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝張委員。"}]}},{"id":"152324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152324","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf712b4f81e2b8fca683f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac7a736555d495dface5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:13:48 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整除了另外一個要求我知道你在代理部長這段時間你很怕出狀況好幾個委員跟你要資料都不給啊都不給啊"},{"start":41.25,"end":66.16,"text":"我現在跟你講的這些資料都是其他部會來的。我要同樣東西財政部給我。關路的東西給我。衛福部給我。食藥署的給我。農運部不給。說機密。我想說你大概就是護你的裡面的一個亂七八糟的事情有工吧。所以你徵處啊。我就一個要求拜託你也拜託"},{"start":67.932,"end":70.139,"text":"我們去問要資料可以給嗎?"},{"start":71.226,"end":95.153,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明齁以我個人的立場齁如果能夠給的資料我一定給當然要給喔但是有一些資料不是我能夠決定的時候我就必須要去請教農業部有什麼資料我都是要比如說我要你進口單的資料這該給吧對進口單的資料有非常多因為本身因為所有的執行都是在續產會那你不給啊你管不到續產會不是這個不是管的問題齁請問你續產會的錢從什麼地方來"},{"start":98.334,"end":123.024,"text":"不是,區長會有一部分的部分,他不是百分之百都是農業部的錢喔?農業部錢有多少給他?我想會根據計畫方式多少給他?你多少?就是看每一年的執行的情況啊最少六七八成嘛對,但是相對的就是他沒有辦法每年平均要多少錢?占幾成?他的支出多少錢?我們大概補八成八成啊!"},{"start":127.824,"end":128.824,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我絕對不會考慮說長官叫我做什麼我做什麼"},{"start":146.052,"end":148.073,"text":"當然可以提供啊!為什麼我現在跟你講來你們的你們在公告榮壽房置地1121483343號"},{"start":169.887,"end":181.458,"text":"對公布了美國有好幾個州包括紐約州包括Utah是疫區是群流感疫區是結果你11月還進口33噸啊53萬顆啊"},{"start":186.482,"end":192.046,"text":"您要進來呢?為什麼這樣子呢?這個資料我們一定會提供,我現在有點忘掉,但是我所瞭解就是說,他公告疫區是一個時間點,但是雞蛋從美國到台灣有一個時間點,他如果說出口在..."},{"start":210.698,"end":217.202,"text":"來你10月10號公告公告的結果呢結果你11月還有進來U塔11月進來14萬噸12月進來33萬噸我是客氣這12月的12月的這12月的所以不是你剛講的那個時間差都沒有這個資料這個資料"},{"start":231.66,"end":242.688,"text":"這個資料是我財政部找的資料財政部的資料你10月份公布UTA是一區11月你給他進來14萬噸14萬噸乘以16顆是多少100多萬顆啊然後你12月又給他進來的33萬噸"},{"start":252.635,"end":278.96,"text":"這是財政部的資料我就跟你講這個所以你們嚴重失職阿我告訴你如果是真的如委員所講就是嚴重失職但是我相信我們的房檢署絕對不會做這種事情一定是在資料上面的認知上有一些誤解我覺得我可以請房檢署因為今天房檢署的同仁沒有來齁我可以請房檢署到您的辦公室去確認這件事情好來跟我確認我一定會跟您確認我再次的公布我再跟你講"},{"start":280.001,"end":287.255,"text":"10月10號去年的10月10號你公布了美國好幾個州包括紐約包括UTA他是一區"},{"start":289.071,"end":313.309,"text":"結果U塔十一月進來十二月進來都一直進口進來一區不能進來你看金門的單就是因為在大陸一區就不可以進來我跟委員說明喔防監署本身是邊境把關者他不可能照您這樣講的去違法部長再請農業部跟國安委員說明好不好那我一門就把我問好不好另外一個題目就是九月份這個你應該知道吧"},{"start":314.195,"end":337.166,"text":"你們的土耳其蛋還在法官那裡有86萬顆在那裡53噸的蛋就是說檢驗合格了也沒有報關也沒有進來你知道這批嗎土耳其的蛋您說去年的9月對"},{"start":338.827,"end":367.753,"text":"昨年9月我所瞭解齁我記憶中所瞭解土耳其的這些這是在邊境把關的時候去檢測出來的他並沒有進到我們的市場沒有進來對對沒有進來市場有53萬噸那現在在哪裡沒有我覺得要確認一下齁因為到了9月多10月的時候有很多也是民間自己進口的所以我要確認一下您這個的訊息部長是不是回去查清楚再跟那位委員做說明土耳其本有癌症的你們有沒有求償"},{"start":370.375,"end":381.296,"text":"已經發生了已經發生不是我們的部分在海關就擋下來了做銷毀那至於說民間自己進來的我們還要去了解"},{"start":382.228,"end":386.532,"text":"臺政部海關要得到,衛福部要得到,就是農業部要得到。你代理部長不敢給,我就認了。但是,真主的部長我會盯著你看,要資料要給。"}]}},{"id":"152323","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152323","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf714954e50cf754c29c6811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac7ad7dde790f3a16825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:11:11 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11:22:47","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":696,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:22:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:11:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時11分）那院長就留在臺上，我想跟您請教一下，第一個，我看到您的報告講到故宮博物院的沿革，前面有一句話是，因為國寶文物因緣際會來到臺灣。這個是第一頁上面寫的因緣際會，這個因緣際會真的是把我們的國寶來到臺灣輕描淡寫，你不曉得我們的國寶來到臺灣是多麼的千辛萬苦，當初我們的國寶在南京，當時的有志之士、我們的先賢先烈，為了怕這一批國寶遭受到日軍的摧毀，所以多少人跋山涉水，要躲過日軍飛機的盤旋、炸彈的攻擊，然後跋山涉水的時候千辛萬苦，結果你們對於國寶來臺灣這個事情輕描淡寫，就寫個因緣際會，難怪大家會對於你們保存國寶跟保護故宮的權利覺得很沒有信心嘛！所以今天為什麼一個照片出來大家會炸鍋？當然你們有你們的解釋，你們認為那個人在國寶旁邊3公分簽字是小疏失，你們覺得是小疏失，大家為什麼會覺得很生氣？就是因為你們在無形當中就透露了你們對這些國寶的不重視，所以大家才會那麼的火大。我現在就問院長，請教一下，你認為今天發生的事情，在翠玉白菜旁邊簽字，這是小疏失嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：完全違反博物館專業人員的職業倫理。"],["葉委員元之：是不是小疏失？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講是違反博物館專業人員的……"],["葉委員元之：那是不是小疏失嘛？現在我就問你，是小疏失還是大疏失？這個違反是嚴重的，還是不嚴重的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為他們非常小心謹慎，國寶也完美無缺的回到故宮……"],["葉委員元之：所以你還是覺得是小疏失，你還是覺得是很小的疏失是不是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對我……"],["葉委員元之：如果故宮的態度覺得是小疏失，那所有為這些國寶擔心的民眾都白擔心了啦！因為這種問題表現在你們的心態上嘛！你的心態認為是小疏失，代表以後還是可能會出現一樣的狀況。"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個對我來講……"],["葉委員元之：你認不認為是小疏失，你就回答我這個問題，是不是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我講老實話，這個當然是一個小疏失。"],["葉委員元之：還是小疏失喔！"],["蕭院長宗煌：是一個嚴重的錯誤。"],["葉委員元之：你還是覺得是小疏失！各位，今天有故宮的人在國寶旁邊3公分簽字，故宮院長的態度是小疏失。"],["蕭院長宗煌：嚴重的錯誤。"],["葉委員元之：對於故宮這樣的態度，我深表遺憾，我強力譴責。如果故宮院長認為這是小疏失的話，大家怎麼能夠放心把國寶交給你們啊？我請教一下，那個國寶是翠玉白菜，是真的還假的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然是真的。"],["葉委員元之：是真的，結果你這樣對待喔！現在網路上怎麼講你知道嗎？網路上說，哎呀！應該是假的，所以才敢這樣啦！反正故宮很多出來展示的東西也不見得是真的，所以才會是這種態度啦！所有人因為你的小疏失，已經懷疑故宮展示的東西是假的，你知道嗎？你還是覺得是小疏失？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這是一個嚴重的錯誤。"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛說小疏失，現在變嚴重錯誤，到底是小疏失還嚴重錯誤？"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然是一個不經心的小疏失，可是是嚴重的錯誤。"],["葉委員元之：不經心的小疏失，但是是一個嚴重的錯誤，你到底在講什麼？你講的話你的小孩聽得懂嗎？不經意的小疏失，但是是一個嚴重錯誤，今天我們在場非常多的記者朋友，每一個對文字的掌握都很精準，我不知道大家寫這個新聞要怎麼寫，標題叫做：翠玉白菜旁邊3公分寫東西，故宮院長說是一個不經意的小疏失，但是又是一個嚴重錯誤。你覺得是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["葉委員元之：院長，你是不是就是要靠著你這三寸不爛之舌，爭取故宮院長的位置？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這無關去留，因為同仁……"],["葉委員元之：我認為你光是認為這個是一個小疏失，你就可以下臺了啦！還要繼續做喔？"],["蕭院長宗煌：去留由長官決定。"],["葉委員元之：我剛剛已經講了，所有的國寶是大家千辛萬苦運來的，你說是因緣際會，然後發生這種嚴重的事情，全臺灣的人都認為是嚴重的事情，只有你故宮院長認為是小疏失。"],["蕭院長宗煌：千辛萬苦在故宮的院史裡面都有記載，千辛萬苦的確沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：對，但是你的報告過來就是因緣際會，輕描淡寫，然後對照你們最近做的事情，現在故宮博物院裡面還有多少文物損壞？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮文物損壞不能用這樣的一條線去畫……"],["葉委員元之：目前還有多少文物損壞？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有辦法用這樣一條線畫說什麼叫做損壞，因為文物的保存狀況本來各有優劣，有的保存的情況好，有的本來進宮的狀況……"],["葉委員元之：我現在問你還有多少損壞，你就回答我的問題，不敢講喔？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是不敢講，我們登保處……"],["葉委員元之：有多少文物損壞嘛？我現在不是問你損壞的原因，我是問你有多少文物現在是損壞還沒修復的，多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：損壞還沒有修復沒有辦法用這樣的講法……"],["葉委員元之：有多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們大概有40件待修的書畫。"],["葉委員元之：還有呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：如果以現在同仁給我的資料，已送修的圖書文獻108件、書畫92件、器物55件、織品10件正在修復，目前待重裱的有240件，這240件待重裱的並不是說三天或是兩個月就要把它做完，因為要看我們故宮提件展覽的需求，只是說檢測的結果，它的狀況比較劣化，所以有必要去做重裱。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，剛剛說器物有55件待修復，對不對？這55件是怎麼壞掉的？有多少是人為的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講，現在查無人為，都是自然的因素，或是因為……"],["葉委員元之：是因為什麼自然因素它會損毀？"],["蕭院長宗煌：進宮的時候，譬如說，有一個官帽，它的珍珠……"],["葉委員元之：進宮之後壞掉多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：它的珍珠本來就散掉了，或是說一個大的瑪瑙珠，它進來的時候本來就散掉了。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝院長，你說進宮之前就壞掉了……"],["蕭院長宗煌：到了臺北。"],["葉委員元之：你們去年的時候非常公開的開了一個展示會，說我們有3個國寶損壞，有一個是弘治款的小碗、一個是康熙款的瓷碗，還有一個是被你們弄壞的乾隆的青瓷盤，結果你們開了一個展示會展示說你們修好了，還大方地講修復的過程，有吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有。"],["葉委員元之：結果我剛剛問你有多少待修復，你講了一大堆，有的是進宮前就壞掉了，到現在都沒有修好，所以你們只做公關是不是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，文物的修復並不是說所有的文物都要修，這個基本上來講的話……"],["葉委員元之：那待修的有多少？我問你這個基本的問題你都回答不出來，還要看資料，你一個故宮博物院院長不就是要保管好那些國寶嗎？你還要看資料，你應該倒背如流、如數家珍。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：我剛剛問你問題，你答不出來，還要下面給小抄。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告，所謂損壞的程度不一、要修復的，譬如說有的是天桿那邊黏一下就好了，有的是要把它整平，有的要去背、要重裱，每一個狀況都不一樣，所以沒有辦法講說損壞……"],["葉委員元之：是啦！我剛剛講55個待修復，什麼時候修好？所以是不修，還是怎麼樣？你自己講待修復，然後又說不一定要修，然後又說修復的原因不一樣。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們修復科長說這一季就會修好。"],["葉委員元之：那你剛剛又講一大堆，自己打臉自己喔！"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以我說它的程度不一。"],["葉委員元之：上一次質詢的時候有跟你講到，網路上查到非常多，有人把故宮的圖檔拿去賣，後來去追了沒？"],["蕭院長宗煌：追了，我們有發了公文，也請淘寶網下架。"],["葉委員元之：公文發給誰？我現在又沒有時間了，我簡單秀一下，有幾個問題，第一個，去年曾經有人爆料說廈門有成立一家公司，假冒故宮的名義成立一個台北故宮交流中心，知道這件事吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：知道。"],["葉委員元之：你們現在的動作是怎麼樣？有去提告嗎？提告了對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有提告。"],["葉委員元之：去年6、7月的時候人家就檢舉了，今年3月才提告，晚了半年。第二個，這是臺灣人在對岸成立的公司，假冒故宮名義招搖撞騙，你們有沒有找臺灣的檢調協助去調查？網友直接講是苗栗的一家公司。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們有找檢調。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有找臺灣的檢調？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有。"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼動作這麼慢？查到了嗎？現在這個問題還持續存在，你知道嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我請處長回答。"],["葉委員元之：處長，現在這個問題還持續存在，你知道嗎？"],["王處長耀鋒：對，甚至我們還追加了被告……"],["葉委員元之：我現在秀給你看，你知不知道現在抖音上面還有台北故宮交流中心，你知道嗎？"],["王處長耀鋒：我們瞭解，我們也在處理，因為這是中國那邊的廠商。"],["葉委員元之：還在耶！去年6、7月人家跟你檢舉，今年3月你提告，現在抖音還有一個台北故宮交流中心的帳號，你現在去跟他對話，他還回你耶！問他說是不是故宮的合法授權，他還說是，結果你告訴我這個你有去追？"],["王處長耀鋒：我們認為這是非常惡劣的廠商，所以正在用司法的途徑跟……"],["葉委員元之：但人家就是還在嘛！","再來我請教一下，你們的報告裡面提到要增加研究能量，其中有一個是參與英國研究院獎助研究計畫「全球召集計畫─中國全球秩序」，院長，這個報告你看過了嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個報告還沒有結案。"],["葉委員元之：沒有結案？結案報告都上傳了，網路上都看得到，還說沒有結案！你知道你們這個報告的結論是什麼嗎？第一個，我不曉得你們去這個跟故宮有什麼關係，還有去研究南非，南非怎麼去瞭解中國的全球秩序？第二個，你知不知道你們參加這個會議之後的結論是什麼？結論是說中國對於南非比較少用文化，所以我們可以用文化去跟南非交流，去鞏固我們的友邦。所以你們故宮的工作到底是保存國寶、研究，還是抗中保臺啊？你們怎麼會去參加這種會議，然後做出這樣的結論？故宮也是搞抗中保臺喔？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，這是參與那次會議的一個報告，並不是所有的研究報告，就是參與那一次會議的。"],["葉委員元之：我就是講你的新的結論嘛！你上面寫的嘛，你的結論就是說中國有跟南非接觸，但比較少用文化交流，所以我們可以多多用文化去跟南非這些國家鞏固彼此邦交，最後一句就是在國際締結擴展友邦的結盟。所以故宮現在也在搞抗中保臺喔？拜託你們做點正事好不好？國人希望你們故宮做的事情是把國寶保護好，這是最基本的要求，不要去搞這些有的沒有的。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，院長請回。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時22分）","繼續開會（11時28分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.82971875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.93909375,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.57409375,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.040343750000005,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.08721875,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.75284375000001,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.69659375,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.72284375000001,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.81534375000001,"end":111.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.05971875,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.26159375,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.04534375,"end":130.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.88409375,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.20846875,"end":151.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.56471875,"end":149.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.74596875,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.31096875,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.85471875000002,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.59284375000001,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.64284375,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.38409375,"end":171.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":174.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.53534375,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.23971875,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.04096875000002,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.17909375000002,"end":186.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.83721875,"end":186.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.88784375,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.99034375000002,"end":207.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.98159375,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.29784375000003,"end":212.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.33534375000002,"end":212.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.11159375000003,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.96346875,"end":219.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.68471875,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.52346875,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.50284375,"end":248.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.08909375000002,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.94971875000002,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.53971875000002,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.70409375000003,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.25534375,"end":266.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.36034375,"end":281.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.71471875000003,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.47221875,"end":287.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.27721875000003,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.07346875,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.14909375,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.35971875,"end":300.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.97534375000004,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.43471875,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.01659375,"end":319.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.49596875000003,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.29284375000003,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.06909375000004,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.95784375,"end":333.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.46409375,"end":340.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.23159375,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.75409375000004,"end":340.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.82159375000003,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.97346875,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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我們有三個國寶損壞嘛 對不對有一個是宏志款的一個小碗康熙款的一個瓷碗還有一個是被你們的弄壞的一個乾隆的青瓷盤結果你們開了一個展示會展示說欸我們修好了然後還大方的講說怎麼修復的過程有吧有結果我剛剛問你有多少袋修復你講了一大堆一拖拉鼓然後有的是進攻前就壞掉了你到現在都沒有修好"},{"start":437.967,"end":463.758,"text":"所以你們只做公關是不是?不是,文物的修幻並不是說所有的文物都要修這個基本上來講...沒有,那代修有多少?我問你這基本的問題你都回答不出來還要看資料喔你一個故宮博物院院長不就是要保管好那些國寶嗎?你還要看資料,你應該倒背如流如數家珍欸我跟委員報告...然後我剛剛問你問題答不出來還要下面給小抄"},{"start":464.218,"end":492.52,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說所謂的損壞的程度不一然後他要修復的有的是譬如說天桿那邊黏一下就好了有的是說要把它整平有的要去背要重裱每一個狀況都不一樣所以沒有辦法講說實在是啦那你到底那你我剛講嘛55個待修復什麼時候要修好嘛所以是不修還是怎麼樣你自己講待修復然後又說不一定要修然後又說修復的原因不一樣我們修復課長說這一季就會修好"},{"start":493.223,"end":507.332,"text":"那你剛剛又講一大堆自己打臉自己喔院長們上一次質詢的時候有跟你講到網路上查到非常多有人把故宮的土檔拿去賣後來去追了沒"},{"start":508.56,"end":537.274,"text":"最後我們也有發了公文也請淘寶往下加發給誰 發給公文我現在秀 我現在又沒有時間了啦我簡單秀 我簡單秀一下齁幾個問題喔 第一個去年曾經有人爆料啦說廈門有成立一家公司假冒的故宮的名義成立一個臺北故宮交流中心知道吧 知道這是吧知道 知道你們現在動作是怎樣 有去提告嗎提告了對不對有 有提告去年六七月的時候人家要檢舉了今年三月才提告"},{"start":539.093,"end":557.835,"text":"晚了半年以後第二個這是台灣人在對岸成立的公司假冒故宮名義招搖撞騙結果你們有沒有找台灣的檢調協助去調查網友直接的講是苗栗等家公司有沒有找台灣檢調有那為什麼多多多慢查到了嗎"},{"start":559.509,"end":585.555,"text":"現在這個問題還持續存在你知道嗎?處長現在這個問題還持續存在你知道嗎?我先秀給你看你知不知道現在抖音上面你知不知道現在抖音上面還有台北故宮交流中心你知道嗎?還在欸你說你去年6、7月人家跟你檢舉你今年3月你提告現在這個抖音還有一個台北故宮交流中心的帳號你現在去跟他對話他會毀你欸"},{"start":587.635,"end":587.995,"text":"這個報告還沒有結案"},{"start":615.663,"end":633.865,"text":"沒有結案 結案報告都上傳了網路上都看得到 還沒有結案你知道你們這個報告結論是什麼嗎第一個 我不曉得你們去這個跟故宮有什麼關係啦好 去研究南非南非怎麼樣去了解中國的全球秩序第二 你們知不知道你們參加這個會議之後結論是什麼"},{"start":635.486,"end":660.985,"text":"結論是說中國對於南非比較少用文化啦所以我們可以用文化去跟南非交流去鞏固我們友邦所以你們故宮故宮的工作到底是保存國保研究還是抗中保台啊跟委員報告你們怎麼會參加這種會議然後做出這樣的結論跟委員報告故宮也是搞抗中保台喔這是一個參與那一次會議的一個報告並不是所有的研究的報告我就是講一個新的結論嘛"},{"start":662.446,"end":690.832,"text":"你上面寫的嘛你的結論就是說中國有跟南非他們接觸但是比較少用文化交流所以我們可以多多用文化去跟南非這些國家鞏固彼此邦交最後一句嘛在國際地結擴展友邦的結盟所以故宮現在也在搞鋼空寶台拜託你們做點正事好不好國人希望你們故宮做的事情是把國寶保護好這是最基本的要求不要去搞這些有的沒有的謝謝"},{"start":693.919,"end":695.542,"text":"好謝謝葉元之委員"}]}},{"id":"152322","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152322","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71e8d017425c4dc036f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac711a9d0916dc8a51f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:07:47 - 11:13:46","影片長度":"00:05:59","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":359,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:13:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:07:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時7分）我們請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。今天是要反映一下關於雞蛋產地跟批發價價格下跌，有一些消費者有特別談到，為什麼消費端沒有辦法降價的部分。我們來看一下圖表，其實雞蛋的蛋價已經連續兩週下跌，創下兩年的新低，產地的價格現在每斤剩35.5元，相當於35元的成本，臺北的批發價也從去年高點的55元，跌到現在的45元，所以跌幅已經超過18%。我們接到一些養雞協會的訊息，提到端午節會是淡季，很憂心蛋價崩盤。部長，想請教一下，產地蛋價下跌、批發市場蛋價下跌，消費端的這個部分，包含便利商店或者是很多我們會去光顧的早餐店，這個蛋價有下跌嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，整個雞蛋價格的波動，我們原則上還是尊重市場的機制，因為產地跟批發是跟農業部比較有關的，它可能跟短時間之內的需求跟供應會有一些波動性的調整，這部分我們隨時在監控，現在最重要的是消費端根本不理我們，就是產地消費平均大概降了10塊，最高點嘛！大概10塊了，可是產地端本身總有很多、很多的理由，就是不動如山啦！我覺得這個部分的確是我們該重視的問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我們當然是尊重市場機制，市場機制基本上是我們國家現實的價值跟原則，如果多次的干預，反而會擾亂市場機制，產地漲價，消費端跟著漲價是合理的，但是產地價格大跌，消費端卻維持這樣的價格，還是鐵板一塊，那我懷疑這就不是市場機制，而是有人故意在操縱價格。部長，如果有類似這樣的情況，你們透過各種數據的蒐集之後，你們會知道，你們會反應嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果我們瞭解市場上有這個價格等於說有被刻意操縱的時候，我想政府內部應該有一個機制，包括可以請公平會這邊來介入瞭解，但是現在雞蛋本身的價格不下來是普遍性的，它不是特定的一個超商不降，包括早餐店也不怎麼降，所以它變成是一個普遍性，那普遍性的問題，可能要有另外一個機制去處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我今天提這個意思不是說要求他們一定要降，或者是哪個一定要漲，而是在市場機制能夠容許的範圍之內，當然是要依照市場機制。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這也是為什麼我們今天要提出相關草案的修正，為什麼要提出第三十五條的修正條文？就是希望農產品的市場交易不要受到擾亂。這些價格的快速波動，我想這是農業部苦惱的問題，這種消費者痛苦、農產品暴跌、農民血本無歸，不管是消費者或者是農民，我們怎麼讓價格平穩，這當然就是農業部最重要的工作。包含颱風漲價，有的時候鄰近的國家才開始發布颱風警報，颱風還沒有來，葉菜及莖類就已經全部先漲一波，就算後來沒有登陸，但是價格也還是不會立即下降，所以我們認為每次只要有颱風消息一出來，大盤商可能就又割了一波。","另外就是透過社群媒體的錯假亂訊息，今天早上我有特別提到，只要中傷某一項農產品，它就可以吸引平面媒體、電視媒體、社群媒體引起消費者的恐慌。譬如說寶林案就是這樣子，因為一開始找不到元凶，所以馬上就不斷地在社群媒體上放話說這個餐廳的木耳有問題，結果消費者恐慌，就影響到我們嘉義縣中埔鄉的產地，甚至他們有一些本來已經要輸入給軍方的，通常又臨時就停止了。當然我們是尊重國防部、軍方自己的決定，只是說因為這種消費端的恐慌，或者是有人特意操弄而導致整個農產品，甚至整個農產業全面性地被影響到，這當然是非常負面的，針對這次的問題，包含農業部第一時間都有出來提這個問題，當然衛福部也在第一時間講說哪一些產品與此無關、哪一些產品有關，馬上就做釐清，所以第一波有止血，未來希望部長在520之後，類似這樣的狀況，農業部也要在第一時間直接介入去瞭解，第一時間就要把最快速的訊息提供給民眾，特別是危機訊息的管理很重要。因為那時候我記得行政院相關人員還特別扯到其他的東西、扯到茶，我不想再傷害那一位行政官員，我只是要提醒一下，傳遞正確的訊息，不要影響到農產品，在遇到食安問題的時候特別需要農業部出來，而且是第一時間就要出來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳委員冠廷：不要讓他們傳一些錯誤訊息之後才出來，第一時間就趕快結合各縣市的農會一起合作，把這些問題提出來的話，我們就可以有效遏阻。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，謝謝委員，針對錯假訊息本身，我們有一個機制，包括網路的搜尋，包括媒體的這些比較不實的訊息，我們都會第一時間就去處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個部分我們會加強努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員、謝謝陳部長，謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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處處都是地雷這個肺腑之言"},{"start":153.257,"end":174.702,"text":"還是問一下,院長,中華文化接下來還會是臺灣的重要文化嗎?上次你很肯定,現在你會不會有點懷疑?當然是,當然是,中華文化是臺灣文化重要的內涵之一。內涵之一?之一,對。之一,還是之二?好,OK,不要太為難你。"},{"start":177.343,"end":199.26,"text":"那是中華文化其實我們上次有非常深入的探討這個文化其實在兩岸的關係之中現在講的就是說中華文化不是屬於廣義的中國的中華文化的那它是人類 全世界人類的"},{"start":203,"end":216.988,"text":"這個說法有一點是你的錢就是大家的錢我的錢是我的錢,你的錢也是我的錢世界文化遺產的概念世界文化遺產的話世界大同這個很有世界大同財產的話跟資產的話是有一點點差異性"},{"start":223.251,"end":251.414,"text":"基於這裡我想最重要的是我們即將520上來的新政府怎麼看待故宮那最近就因為有一個新內閣的撤離會今天很多人在問那就是大家突然發現院長你沒有出席所以大家就傳說故宮要降級了那為什麼要"},{"start":254.08,"end":273.538,"text":"為什麼會有這一些傳言?因為其實在2020年的時候行政院就提出故宮的降級、隸屬於文化部的這一些說確實有在討論那原因就是其實在這裡故宮是一個文化的傳承"},{"start":276.181,"end":291.7,"text":"很重要的象徵還是只是一個博物館一個專業的博物館因為如果只是一個專業博物館列為部長級的閣議員的確在世界上也是蠻奇怪的"},{"start":292.83,"end":315.527,"text":"那請問院長可能嗎?可能會被有這種歸屬於文化博物院我第一個傳故宮降級行政院已改三期獨立法人的第一個字是傳因為跟故宮的很多那個國寶作品一樣寫傳的話那不一定就是真的不一定就是真的但是你自己的覺得呢?"},{"start":316.067,"end":318.39,"text":"沒有見面沒有出席搞不好是更好的事情喔搞不好是升級喔"},{"start":334.095,"end":352.474,"text":"會不會搞不好就是這個認為未來故宮要傳承更多的中華文化戰略的文化成為台灣重要戰略統戰大陸所以呢以故宮出發會不會有這種戰略的想法然後所以呢要把故宮改曆屬總統府"},{"start":356.671,"end":365.453,"text":"有可能嗎?這種預測基本上來講的話是我沒有辦法想像因為傳說故宮隸屬過總統府但是從來都沒有你自己比較覺得可能會發生的"},{"start":374.175,"end":403.241,"text":"不是因為個人位置的問題不是氣流的問題可是以目前故宮的狀況來講的話保留現狀的話讓它有一個穩定的發展過程的話我覺得是比較對故宮來講比較有利的因為現在在做工程現在在做庫房的改造然後空間的重新定位然後還要改箱違規然後接下來要盤點如果我們去做比較變動比較大的組織改造的話會比較不好"},{"start":405.999,"end":432.897,"text":"維持現狀保持模糊一中各表反正就是這種模糊都很但是問題是新政府不曉得願不願意這樣做我想故宮院長的位置的棄由是長官決定那整個故宮的定位的話未來也是行政院決定那另外的話他一定要經過大院審議通過所以這個部分的話我只能做這樣的一個表示"},{"start":433.917,"end":458.85,"text":"這個當然就是因為這個的模糊為什麼說剛才為故宮的同仁教區就是說你們真的會很辛苦因為你想要做專業樹易盡而風不止就是你要好好的做事情但是沒有人要讓你好好做事情那所以你要做任何事情都動輒得咎那OK包括你的建築"},{"start":460.376,"end":460.956,"text":"院長覺得呢?"},{"start":482.421,"end":500.899,"text":"故宮這個建築其實它已經變成是臺灣的一個地景甚至地標在全世界的話只要出現這樣的一個畫面的話大家都知道是國立故宮博物院所以它代表臺灣的一個整體的形象我想這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":502.84,"end":522.65,"text":"好,謝謝,所以這個我們跳過去,因為最近有這些爭議,包死博款的玻璃屋,故宮也嚴厲在外面的一個伸展,大家各方有不同的看法,那這個院長接下來要怎麼做?"},{"start":523.977,"end":524.799,"text":"新舊融合"},{"start":539.258,"end":544.222,"text":"那我最後問一題就是院長你自己心裡你希望是升格還是降格"},{"start":569.602,"end":575.372,"text":"欸 降格有時候蠻好的喔一旦降格以後就不要再吵這些嘛大家好好做專業工作嘛"},{"start":576.317,"end":576.478,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":607.401,"end":608.845,"text":"祝福院長一帆風順"}]}},{"id":"152320","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152320","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf717a2eb7c884c3e8ebf2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac73ef1174435adc4975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:02:12 - 11:07:38","影片長度":"00:05:26","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":326,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:07:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:02:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1080,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時2分）主席謝謝。麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：陳代理部長啦！520之後才會真除，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，不過不管怎麼樣，重點在於一定要為我國人把關。早上有委員出示了國小學童的關心，現在所謂的進口乳要更名變成是長效乳，以保護酪農的生計，部長有看到這個明信片嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我沒有看到，但是委員那時候有唸。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我也唸一下，因為我覺得這真的是讓國人以及讓學童都知道，他說是臺南某地區的六年級學生，經過班級乳牛專題課程之後，得知2025年紐西蘭液態乳進口，恐嚴重影響我國酪農業，請您支持修法採取行動，將效期達兩個月以上的進口乳更名為「長效乳」，以保障我國酪農生計。農業部有沒有收到這樣的一個信？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我本身沒有收到。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有收到？好，是不是等一下我質詢完，我也把這一份送我們部長，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想一般的民眾、大家都願意關心，代表這是好事，更重點是部長之前有講到進口乳要更名為長效乳是跟衛福部食藥署建議，目前的進度到底為何？"],["陳代理部長駿季：目前相關牛奶的規範裡面並沒有特別針對「長效乳」這個名詞，所以我們內部其實跟乳業者還有學者專家討論，就是在某一個殺菌的條件之下，應該變成「長效乳」這樣的名稱來區隔現在的國產乳，特別是國產CAS的牛奶，因為相關的權責是在衛福部，所以我們在4月1月就把相關的建議提供給衛福部，也期待衛福部能夠根據我們的建議召開專家會議去做確認，大概是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在衛福部的動作如何？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在還沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為對於國人來講，這不能拆兩段，因為政府是一體的嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道，我們也很急啦！所以我們會持續跟衛福部溝通，因為啟動召開專家會議或相關的決定是由衛福部來做相關的權責，所以我們會積極的跟衛福部洽談，看看可不可以請他們快一點的確認，因為這牽扯到後續國產乳標示區隔的一個有效作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那這樣子，部長，因為衛福部有可能520之後才有新任部長要上任，而你這邊是真除，但國人當然是希望我們一體的趕快來作業，趕快把這樣一個國人所關心的議題給確認。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們持續會透過現在的管道請他們看看可不可以在520之前，儘早開專家會議，如果衛福部那邊有開專家會議也確認了，那麼就算520新政府上臺，也能夠很快的公布，而不是所有的東西都等到520才開始去作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長之前有提到農業部要一個月內提出相關方案，那是什麼樣的方案？"],["陳代理部長駿季：整個內容本身，長效乳只是支持酪農產業的一個方案，這個部分講的是長效乳的部分，但是我們提的是一個完整的方案，從牧場端到整個加工端、消費端……"],["洪委員孟楷：早上有講到總共方案是29億的預算，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：29億。那個方案，我們已經報院了。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來？因為現在有看到很多酪農業者都還要計畫直接北上，那麼會不會在520之前，反而我們新任政府、新任總統要上任時，同時間會有抗議潮？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想以農業部的立場，我們政策是持續的，而且我們已經報院了，就我所瞭解，大概在上個禮拜，國發會審完，已經進到行政院了，我們也透過管道希望行政院能夠儘快核示，因為這個酪農支持性的計畫，當初院長在總質詢的時候，也有相關的承諾，所以我相信陳建仁院長也知道這樣的訊息，我們也會儘可能的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我比較直接請教，有沒有信心能夠拆彈成功，讓酪農業者不要北上來抗議？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有信心？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然方案提出來了，你也掌握這個時間，還有現在政府並不是不做事啊！其實你看得出來，我們也要照顧我們的酪農業者、我們要照顧我們的民生需求，那麼有沒有信心？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想以我個人來講，我會盡最大的努力，我相信應該可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們一起努力，好不好？謝謝部長。部長，這一份資料也請您帶回去。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員、謝謝陳部長。","接下來邱議瑩、邱議瑩，邱議瑩委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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":"我沒有看到但是那個委員有那種唸是我也唸一下因為我覺得這真的是讓國人以及讓學童都知道他說是"},{"start":56.201,"end":76.821,"text":"臺南某地區的六年級學生經過班級乳牛專題課程之後得知2025年紐西蘭液態乳進口恐嚴重影響我國酪農業請你支持修法採取行動將校期達兩個月以上的進口乳更名為長效乳以保障我國酪農生計"},{"start":79.367,"end":91.299,"text":"農業部有沒有收到這樣的一個信?我本身沒有收到,沒有收到。好,那是不是等一下我質詢完,我也把這一份也送給我們部長,好不好?因為我想這也代表是說我們這個"},{"start":92.927,"end":108.954,"text":"一般的民眾大家都願意關心的話那代表這是好事那更重點是說現在部長之前有講到是說進口乳要更名為長效乳是跟衛福部食藥署建議那目前的進度到底為何我們這樣子齁就是現在目前的一個"},{"start":110.054,"end":110.074,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":128.946,"end":129.787,"text":"現在衛福部的動作如何?"},{"start":147.35,"end":172.185,"text":"對於國人來講這不能說拆兩段因為政府是一體的嘛我想我們也很急到所以我想我們也會再持續的跟衛務部溝通因為啟動開專家會議或相關的決定是由衛務部來做相關的權責所以我們會積極的跟衛務部來洽談看看可不可以請他們快一點的確認因為這牽扯到我們後續的國產乳的一個標示的區隔的一個有效的作為"},{"start":174.643,"end":188.129,"text":"那這樣子部長因為現在衛福部他有可能520之後才有新任部長要上任但是你這邊是真主嘛所以國人當然會希望是說我們一體的趕快來作業趕快來把這樣子一個國人所關心的議題給把它確認"},{"start":190.401,"end":191.701,"text":"部長,之前有提到說農業部要一個月內提出相關方案,那是什麼樣的方案?"},{"start":214.807,"end":243.488,"text":"整個內容本身長效爐只是在整個落農去支持落農產業的一個方案那這個部分講的是長效爐的部分但是我們提的方案是一個完整的從那個牧場的端到整個的一個加工端早上有講到是說總共方案是29億的計算那個方案我們已經抱怨了對是那什麼時候會出來因為現在有看到是說很多的落農業者都還要計劃直接北上"},{"start":244.289,"end":270.58,"text":"那會不會在520之前反而我們新任政府新任總統要上任之後同時間會有抗議抗議草?我想以農業部的立場就是我們政策是持續的而且我們已經抱怨了那抱怨我所了解現在大概在上個禮拜嘛上個禮拜已經進到國會審完已經進到行政院了那我們也透過管道希望說行政院能夠能夠盡快的去做這樣的一個核試因為"},{"start":271.36,"end":275.662,"text":"所以部長我比較直接請教有沒有信心能夠拆彈成功讓弱農業者不要北上來抗議我們會努力有沒有信心"},{"start":296.789,"end":297.069,"text":"謝謝洪國元、謝謝陳部長"}]}},{"id":"152319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7180d54f9f9ff91160f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac76e0888262ff463d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:57:23 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謝謝 謝謝主席 有請院長院長好首先想要請教院長你是否聽過這樣的說法因為媒體他指稱你是被公認這個故宮歷來院長中最不政治的政務官這種說法你認同嗎"},{"start":29.077,"end":54.293,"text":"我不太懂實際上最不政治的政務官我覺得這句話其實充滿矛盾因為我不認為那是對政務官正向的形容詞如果真的有政務官自認為能置身於政治之外那我想他就是根本搞不清楚自己的角色定位不適合擔任代表國家這樣的一個責任"},{"start":55.434,"end":64.382,"text":"當然部分的論者有說台灣內部因為兩岸意識形態對立所以讓故宮難逃政治的角力但是本席認為其實這是一種把故宮純粹當作博物館看待的觀點在我國現行的政治體下其實這是經不起挑戰的謬論"},{"start":79.215,"end":94.29,"text":"怎麼說故宮不是難逃政治的角力而是故宮根本不敢不用妄想要逃離政治的角力因為故宮現在的定位跟角色安排他根本就是政治的產物"},{"start":95.131,"end":117.687,"text":"故宮作為博物館直接隸屬於行政院之下他的院長形成像您現在院長就是形同於內閣成員那要到立法院來備詢那所以這怎麼可能不政治啊好那長期以來從文化政治的面向我們探討故宮的問題那有一個日本資深的媒體人"},{"start":119.888,"end":142.649,"text":"野島剛他去年10月底以故宮博物院外級的諮詢委員的身份來訪台有參加長達三天的這個會議他對故宮的經營有提出很多的建議那其實這不是第一次野島剛對故宮做出建言早在2016年他就有說過"},{"start":143.69,"end":156.218,"text":"故宮應該早日放下法統的任務放下中華文化本位的優越感要思考怎麼樣成為臺灣人的故宮所以院長你是否這個認同這個野島剛的建議就是說讓故宮放下這個法統的任務並且成為臺灣人的故宮又這麼問好了啦 院長你認為故宮本土化了嗎還是說故宮本土化的意義跟價值何在 院長"},{"start":174.471,"end":196.992,"text":"第一個跟委員報告我認同葉道剛的觀點因為外面的觀點的話當然是可以給我們參考可是要放下華同畫下中華文化本位的優越感就像故宮當時成立的目的跟委員講的就是一個政治下的產物所以這個糾葛跟羈絆的話基本上來講的話是很難完全排除的"},{"start":199.094,"end":199.934,"text":"應該這樣做,但是現在還在糾纏之中"},{"start":215.182,"end":233.114,"text":"故宮百年的歲月中有70多年在台灣度過那理論上故宮早該跟這塊土地上生根而且發展出在地的連結那可是無論是組織改造也好又或者是故宮修復再利用的計畫都有人覺得在去中國化那請問院長你認為什麼叫做去中國化"},{"start":240.299,"end":255.656,"text":"故宮的文物屬於中國嗎?那如果故宮的文物本來就不屬於中國就如同您書面報告所主張的嘛它是人類所共享的歷史文明瑰寶那到底有什麼去中國化的空間可言?院長"},{"start":257.685,"end":282,"text":"有時候這樣講就是很簡單的簡化的兩個字他當然會限縮到一個理性對話或是改革的空間因為當然就是說我不願意講這兩個字因為故宮面臨其苦任何的作為的話都會套上兩個字所以這個對故宮的長遠的發展的話其實是不利的"},{"start":283.106,"end":297.642,"text":"那另外的話就是說所謂的故宮在地化故宮的話從1948、49年到了台灣在北溝1965年到外雙溪基本上來講我是南部的小孩子南部小孩子的願望就畢業典禮的時候可以參觀故宮"},{"start":298.883,"end":299.043,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":332.985,"end":347.431,"text":"高院長您講得對,就是說有很多來自中國的境外勢力跟他的同路人都紛紛的希望能夠透過故宮來進一步消除台灣跟中國之間國跟國的關係"},{"start":350.672,"end":369.557,"text":"就像最近去 前一陣子去訪中的前總統馬英九他上個月到中國故宮的時候就說任何去中國化的行徑都不會成功因為中華文化遠遠流長以及生殖炎黃子孫的血脈當中"},{"start":370.957,"end":382.203,"text":"馬英九這種論述實際上就是在當中國政協委員的硬生蟲那上一次的詢答本席就有跟院長討論到中國召開兩會的時間有政協委員放話說要針對兩岸故宮的合作、交流、提案、建議他的論述是"},{"start":392.368,"end":392.388,"text":"這是..."},{"start":407.952,"end":408.832,"text":"中國政協會議員林宜瑾議員林宜瑾"},{"start":430.017,"end":451.765,"text":"政治工具的這個行為第二台灣故宮有沒有促進台灣人對中國產生認同感第三故宮文物是屬於全中國的還是屬於全人類的文化資產第四如果遇到中國單方面放話那並提出很多的理由來跟我們故宮做交流我國故宮要什麼樣實際行為來捍衛對等跟尊嚴"},{"start":455.827,"end":455.847,"text":"院長．"},{"start":462.154,"end":484.809,"text":"我簡單回答故宮是屬於全世界的文化遺產因為宋元明清那時候還沒有中華人民共和國那另外的話就是兩岸的交流要在一個法律基礎上對等然後可以友善的方式來進行如果以現在經濟造台的狀況的話其實是看不到那樣的交流的契機"},{"start":486.05,"end":506.155,"text":"當然就是說台灣故宮有沒有促進台灣人對中國產生認同感我覺得這是兩回事因為欣賞一個重要的人類文化資產跟對中國產生認同感這個是兩回事我不認為說台灣的小學生或是大學生中學生去參訪故宮就變成是說被統戰了這個不會"},{"start":508.315,"end":508.515,"text":"好 院長"},{"start":537.712,"end":560.337,"text":"最後20秒您上任的時候有許一個願望就是說要讓故宮回歸博物館的專業那當然除了讓板橋林家私人文物繼續利用公共資源寄存這個以外當然你另外一項的政策跟前院長大湘進行的作為就是說在故宮改組這個議題"},{"start":562.017,"end":584.944,"text":"您跟吳院長的這個想法是不同的他是支持改立文化部那您是覺得改立文化部不是很好的選項剛剛有很多委員問你你也是這樣回答那我今天還是請院長負起責任的告訴大家你覺得故宮應該置身於哪個位階才能夠少一點建制而且可以回歸博物館的專業"},{"start":586.669,"end":609.31,"text":"以我們跟人事總署請我們研究的計畫故宮最適合的組織定位當然第一個維持現狀第二個改立文化部第三個用基金的經營第四個行政法人這是一個顯像但是以目前來講為什麼當初沒有講呢因為它還沒有臨近社會的共識那另外的話改立文化部的話因為組織顏額的關係然後故宮的組織顏額預算的話可能會降低"},{"start":612.973,"end":637.652,"text":"另外的話現在故宮同仁的話是他的研究員是比較學校教授副教授可是到了文化部以後他會降階所以這個部分的話牽涉到很多問題尤其是以現在來講的話故宮進行新故宮計畫還有改宣違規整個展品的定位重新盤整的時候如果以現在作為過季列的一個組織改造的話對目前的整個運作的情況是不利的"},{"start":638.356,"end":638.476,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":668.376,"end":692.808,"text":"我跟委員報告一下那另外一個選擇的話就是說如果以我的觀點來講的話現在的兩廳院如果當初維持是一個教育部教育部的首屬單位或是文化部的首屬單位現在的國家表演藝術中心絕對沒有現在的量能所以當然它是一個選項可是這個選項的話要有更多的社會共識跟討論好 了解好 院長謝謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152317","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152317","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71540c7088bc0c9422f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac740d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:42:48 - 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14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":290,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:51:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:46:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時46分）謝謝主席，請國防部。"],["主席：請柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問，大陸海警船持續靠近我國的海域，目前我們軍方掌握的情況究竟是如何？民眾如果害怕，我們政府要告訴人家到底目前是在安全的範圍嗎？請說明。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，有關於中共海警船接近我方海域，事實上，我們每天國防部在所有的、下午的記者會新聞稿裡面都會發布，這些狀況都是在我們的監控範圍，我們所有的處置程序都是海巡優先，我們國軍的船艦是在側翼來協助海巡。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止，都還是在可控的範圍？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：都能夠掌握，都是在可控的範圍。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請加油！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也希望不能有擦槍走火。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然不會，當然不會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民眾要的是安全。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝你。","繼續本席要請教的是軍售的問題。在2025年的聽證會中，有很多議員連署，就是美國聯邦眾議院軍事委員會，他們也在聽證會裡頭提問，就目前為止提供給我們的資料，對臺軍售交付延滯累積到190億，也就是6,199億臺幣，是如此嗎？這個數字正確嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我跟委員報告，因為這個軍售款項，他現在所進行的都是說，比如說，我今天交貨了，按照我們發價書裡面的期程來付款，至於說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但延滯的部分是不是這個數字？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：延宕的數字不是這個數字。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然是什麼數字？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這是還沒有交貨的數字，這不是延宕，跟委員報告，這不是延宕。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是他們說未來要聚焦減少積壓訂單，有這回事嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的！是的！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會減少積壓的訂單，表示往前推的這些事情是有障礙的，可以這樣解讀嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我跟委員報告，俄烏戰爭到現在為止，所有美方的國防產業，在軍售上來講，對全球都是遲交的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：任何的理由都有，那我方怎麼處置？我們怎麼聯繫？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：跟委員報告，第一個，在目前所有的軍售裡面，我們都是按照我們的合約來要求，雖然有部分在產能上面來講有降低，在正常供貨情況下，但是美方也成立了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有降低會不會影響到我方？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不會。就是在我們的合約期限之內，他會完成這樣的交貨。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還是有信心在合約期限內還是會完成的？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在確定是他們有少量，而且他們目前跟我們的進度還是有部分延滯？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們每個月都在磋商，都在開專案會議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，您給的答案就是說，到最後會照我們的合約，不會交不出來，也不會再延期。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，不會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是民眾希望要聽到的，所以一定要加油。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個問題要問外交部，一分鐘就好了。"],["主席：好，儘快，好不好？請摘要提問、摘要回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，我會摘要提問。跟我們的友邦、友好的國家要怎麼聯繫？關於目前WHA世界衛生大會的部分，我們有沒有收到邀請函？"],["田次長中光：沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管有沒有，我們還是要加油，對不對？"],["田次長中光：繼續！繼續！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們在現場的時候跟哪一些國家可以怎麼研擬、怎麼交流，我們都有預備動作吧？"],["田次長中光：有的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有盤點吧？"],["田次長中光：有的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常重要，因為我們真的非常的希望，而CPTPP資深官員會議並沒有討論到成立新入會國工作小組的問題，換句話說，我們並沒有納入在會員國的討論範圍內，是不是如此？"],["田次長中光：是的，就是還要雙邊的先談。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然雙邊的先談，所以這個部分也是民眾非常關心的，我們要好好去加油。"],["田次長中光：是的。"],["主席：好，楊委員謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這對於我們的國家、對於我們的產業，影響是非常巨大的，加油！"],["田次長中光：是的。謝謝委員。"],["主席：未來CPTPP我相信我們應該會有專案報告，歡迎到時候參加。各位請回，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答委員吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員不在。","林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員，莊瑞雄委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","羅智強委員、羅智強委員，羅智強委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員不在。","羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員，羅廷瑋委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束，委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位於跟委員約定的時間，像剛才洪申翰委員好像是說3個月或按照我們的慣例，於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，依其所定。","我們接下來要進行討論事項，剛才我們有分成國防部、外交部跟國安局，國防部原來有7案，加上馬文君委員從報告案挪過來的14案，總共21案，我們併在一起討論。我附帶跟各位委員宣告，我們下午一點半會宣布開會，開會的時候，會宣讀條文大概兩個小時，宣讀條文後，因為我們上一次已經詢答，大體討論也已經討論過了，我把它修正一下，我們下午宣讀完就進行逐條討論，所以一點半宣讀，大概會宣讀到三點半左右，請司法及法制、外交及國防委員會各委員辦公室注意時間。","好，我們現在先來處理國防部的凍結案，總共21案，也都已經宣讀過，請問在場的各位委員是否同意解凍或有其他問題嗎？請馬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等 89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.09846875000000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.78471875,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.35409375,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.446593750000002,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.250968750000002,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.08534375,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.180343750000006,"end":43.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.486593750000004,"end":60.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.50721875,"end":59.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.39721875,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.899093750000006,"end":63.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.447218750000005,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.24034375000001,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.25721875,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.05846875,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.01596875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.77534375,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.60096875,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.80659375,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.42221875,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.87284375,"end":97.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.55159375000001,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.65221875,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.82909375000001,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.28409375000001,"end":111.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.39721875000001,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.46471875,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.40096875,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.76784375000001,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.93471875,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.28909375,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.96409375000002,"end":134.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.51659375,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.25471875,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.17846875,"end":137.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.71846875,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.17346875,"end":142.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.86534375000002,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.78909375,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.54409375,"end":148.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.51409375,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.86409375000002,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.92721875,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.70346875,"end":152.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.19284375,"end":157.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.17971875,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.52971875,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.93034375000002,"end":159.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.10221875000002,"end":169.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.90346875,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.67534375000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.28284375,"end":171.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.29534375,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.41346875000002,"end":185.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.60971875,"end":188.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.21284375000002,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.08971875,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.02596875,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.59971875000002,"end":198.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.13534375,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.04221875000002,"end"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Schafer，他的衣服你看得出來是依據哪一個作品來設計的嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：梵谷。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，這就是梵谷的星夜。其實故宮過去也有做過文物跟時尚的結合，2018年跟臺灣的服裝設計師周裕穎合作，把我們的翠玉白菜帶到紐約時裝週，我覺得當時就是一個很好的嘗試，因為不只是臺灣的服裝設計，還結合了臺灣本土音樂創作，結合已故的楊秀卿老師的「唸歌」、柯智豪老師的音樂，還有熊仔的RAP，所以我覺得這是一個很好的嘗試，我也希望故宮能夠再去增加、去規劃更多相關的行銷計畫，能夠去增加我們的國際能見度，特別是我們不只是要打破文化的疆界，不只是要出海、出航，我們是要打破藝術的跨領域，能夠透過故宮文物跟臺灣其他本土藝術文化創作者來結合，我想這會是一個非常重要的，也是故宮的社會責任。這個部分我希望未來當故宮提出行銷預算要增加的時候，也可以更加明確地告訴我們要如何透過行銷來增加國際的能見度，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳沛憶委員。"],["主席（吳委員沛憶代）：謝謝。下一位請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.363468750000001,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.388468750000001,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.129718750000002,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.822843750000004,"end":56.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.625343750000006,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.531593750000006,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.05846875,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.24534375000002,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.56096875,"end":235.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.82534375,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.78596875000002,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.93909375000004,"end":314.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.71596875,"end":345.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.10784375000003,"end":359.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.55284375,"end":397.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.93909375000004,"end":404.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.93409375000005,"end":405.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.67659375000005,"end":406.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.15721875,"end":408.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.38471875000005,"end":420.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.60659375,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.15784375000004,"end":438.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.25346875,"end":449.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.51346875,"end":454.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.64346875,"end":482.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.16221875,"end":545.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.59659375,"end":485.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.71721875,"end":523.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.46034375,"end":559.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.6059687500001,"end":561.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.1584687500001,"end":561.8334687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.813,"end":11.055,"text":"來謝謝主席我請故宮博物院蕭宗煌院長好有請蕭院長院長好我們今天的報告主題是回首百年放眼未來故宮定位與部會級博物館社會責任的總檢討那當然也聽過院長的報告以及我們的簡報但我仍然要在這裡請教院長您認為故宮最重要的社會責任是什麼"},{"start":36.597,"end":56.412,"text":"故宮最重要的社會責任的話如果說以博物館的一個核心的話我們把這些典藏做好那當然是最重要的一個社會責任因為維持這些人類的瑰寶的話其實不容易那當然再來的話就是要把這些瑰寶的話分享給所有不只是台灣而是全世界的民眾"},{"start":57.957,"end":78.643,"text":"對,我們負有把這些重要的人類的文明的古文物修復保護好的責任我們也負有把這些文物和這些歷史相關的文化分享給包括國內以及國外社群的責任我覺得這非常的重要那我們故宮正在進行這個新故宮計畫"},{"start":80.263,"end":88.069,"text":"在改革的路上總是會遇到很多的辯論以及討論像這一次我們的新故宮計畫這新聞上面有說有些人以這個新故宮計畫是不是在進行去中國化來進行反對的意見"},{"start":97.356,"end":103.078,"text":"去中國化這個名詞對我來說也是一個歷史名詞我算是出生在台灣解嚴那一年但有記得從小我們在電視新聞上看到台灣當年在討論要教改的時候就有人出聲反對說不行不行這個教改叫做去中國化那所以呢我想我們如果回顧人類的歷史其實台灣也不孤單人類歷史上面每當要改革的時候總是會遇到各式各樣"},{"start":126.107,"end":126.147,"text":"主席"},{"start":145.629,"end":172.42,"text":"主要是什麼?要秉持你們的專業院長剛剛在回覆很多委員的問題的時候我都相當的讚賞不管是哪一個黨派委員的問題你都秉持你的專業故宮的文物修復尤其這是何等專業的事情那接下來我想要請教院長的是我們剛剛有提到的是我們的古物修復人力除了人力的數量是否足夠以外我想故宮過去在古文物的修復"},{"start":173.3,"end":176.061,"text":"臺灣目前我們的古物修復是還沒有朝向正照制所以我想要請教院長的意見"},{"start":197.912,"end":215.199,"text":"因為我們民間有在參與說我們的古物修復是不是可以來參照古蹟修復師他可以來把它制度化有一個證照的制度以日本來說他們也有日本國寶修理裝潢師聯盟他建立的是修理技術者的資格制度裡面他用分級的"},{"start":215.819,"end":223.207,"text":"所以一個修復師技術師的培養可能是要17年的時間以英國來說他也是由專業團體來執行專業認證的保存計畫那院長以我們故宮過去的經驗你認為台灣的古物修復有沒有需要朝向制度化"},{"start":236.259,"end":263.588,"text":"我覺得這個非常有必要因為跟文資的修復人力一樣因為我記得也是01級委員就是在爭取那個古蹟修復的專業技術的他的那個薪水的支付的等級所以這個部分的話有很好的突破那我覺得未來的話修復師如果可以導入一個證照制度然後讓這些修復師的話可以有一個合法的身份去從事修復的話我覺得這是一個良性的發展"},{"start":264.033,"end":270.462,"text":"是 所以我希望故宮未來若文化部開始在研擬這個國務秀復師的徵兆制的時候故宮可以把我們過去的經驗你們經驗是最寶貴的來提供分享給文化部協助台灣來去把它制度化再來是"},{"start":279.315,"end":279.535,"text":"臺灣去年高雄開始營運的內圍藝術中心"},{"start":303.872,"end":304.813,"text":"故宮目前有沒有在進行相關的規劃?"},{"start":315.098,"end":342.491,"text":"故宮藍燕的國寶館裡面有一個修復的專業的一個工作室基本上來講的話我們也是有這樣的概念但是這樣的概念的話並不是說任何人的話隨時隨間隨時隨刻都可以進到修復室去參觀它是一個導覽的一個形式去介紹修復的過程而不是來檢視說工作人員到底有沒有偷懶因為有一個動作比如說光清洗的動作可能他要在那邊清洗一個鐘頭"},{"start":343.712,"end":343.732,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":359.654,"end":382.228,"text":"是 所以我們國保館也是新故宮計畫的一環剛剛講這個可見式修復這個觀念就很重要 院長你講的就是我們為什麼要做這個可見式修復的空間其實在做教育跟推廣我們希望讓國人 更多的民眾可以了解修復工作的重要性以及它的價值然後大家也會更加的尊重那剛剛有提到說 院長你提到說故宮很缺乏行銷相關的資源你認為目前的預算編列是不夠的"},{"start":389.312,"end":389.853,"text":"現在是增加到三位數"},{"start":407.236,"end":419.289,"text":"除了數字之外我想國人會更想要了解的是這些錢預算我們是要放在什麼樣的位置院長以你的過去在故宮的經驗你認為故宮現在需要增加哪些的行銷計畫"},{"start":420.646,"end":444.86,"text":"我想如果有經會的話基本上國際行銷是我們比較缺乏的一塊因為這個怎麼講呢因為在過去的那個年代裡面所有的新聞局或是外交部的駐外單位都會把故宮行銷故宮當作第一個本位那當然就是說因為現在大家經會也缺乏了所以變成說故宮的所謂的宣傳的部分的話都要故宮去處理"},{"start":445.68,"end":473.976,"text":"所以我們希望說可以譬如說參加國內外的國際禮展或是說在國際媒體上面去做行銷這個部分的話需要有一些經費來處理是 這個我是支持的增加行銷的資源讓故宮的國際年間度去增加因為內容跟行銷兩者是缺一不可而故宮是台灣極好的優勢我們有極好的內容所以應該要通過行銷能夠故宮帶領台灣走向世界那我看到像這個你看一下這個"},{"start":475.076,"end":485.646,"text":"這個院長看一下這個照片這個是美國一個跨性別模特兒Hunter Shaffer他的衣服你看得出來他是依據哪一個作品來設計的嘛對這是飯骨的新業嘛那其實我們故宮過去也有做過文物跟時尚的結合2018年的時候我們跟台灣的這個服裝設計師周允合作就把我們的翠玉白菜"},{"start":496.696,"end":501.597,"text":"是帶到了紐約的時裝周我覺得當時就是一個很好的嘗試因為不只是台灣的服裝設計還結合了台灣本土的音樂創作結合了我們已故的楊秀卿老師的兩關柯志豪老師的音樂還有熊仔的rap所以呢我覺得這是一個很好的嘗試那我也希望故宮能夠再去增加去規劃更多的"},{"start":520.962,"end":534.187,"text":"相關的行銷的計畫能夠去增加我們的國境能見度特別是我們不只是要打破文化的疆界不只是要出海出航我們是要打破藝術的跨領域能夠透過我們故宮文物跟我們臺灣其他本土的藝術文化創作者來結合我想這會是一個非常重要的也是故宮的社會責任"},{"start":546.459,"end":546.539,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71e112a84e670623575e31cafebf20a13d36499d1b681a2ac77cf64100f1aa8a575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:40:53 - 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14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":347,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:46:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:40:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":447,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時40分）謝謝主席，我想要請退輔會。"],["主席：李文忠副主委。"],["李副主任委員文忠：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：副主委好。我想要請問一下，我們在就養給付的部分調整幅度4%夠嗎？確定什麼時候發放？申請就養給付的資格可不可以先跟我們說明一下有哪一些？"],["李副主任委員文忠：我跟委員報告，應該這樣說，第一，現役人員今年是調4%。第二，退休人員也有他的制度，今年是比照現任人員也是4%。第三，就養制度又有另外一個制度，今年比照退休人員一樣是4%，溯自今年的1月1號開始。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這一些除役官兵他們大多都是在服役期間，因為作戰或者是因公，導致他們身心受到一些損害，對國家付出了自己的健康，後續我們對他們的保障跟照顧，是不是應該要考慮得更加完善呢？"],["李副主任委員文忠：跟委員報告，你剛剛講的跟現在講的有一點出入，一個就是服役20年退休的，另外國家為了照顧大陸來臺的，現在大概有4萬多人，後來又予以擴大，就是滿61歲沒有領月退俸的退休榮民，而你剛剛提到的是另外一個概念，就是他因公……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是兩件事情，所以我問你的是第二件事情，就是因公的部分，我這邊的PowerPoint有寫，依據國軍除役官兵就養安置辦法，關於他是因為作戰的關係而除役的部分，我們現在提供給他們相關後續的福利、保障或者是協助，大概有哪一些呢？"],["李副主任委員文忠：我請我們就養處長來說明。"],["周處長興國：委員你好，我是就養養護處處長周興國，有關因公的部分，如果是因公致傷殘並經過檢定，他並不受到61歲的限制，經檢定完之後，若他是符合的話，他就是符合我們所謂的就養榮民，同時他也具備榮民的身分，以上。"],["李副主任委員文忠：我能不能另外簡單地跟委員講兩個很小的事情？"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，請說。"],["李副主任委員文忠：以前因公或是因訓殞命，殞命那一天他不是榮民，我們的主委，我們去年跟國防部合作，我們現在就把他當作是榮民，所以他的遺孀、他的子女一樣受到照顧；譬如說在半年前因公受傷的，他們是沒有水電半價，我在半年前幫助他們，讓其全部水電半價，但這個人數很少，只有280幾位。"],["徐委員巧芯：很棒，我很支持。"],["李副主任委員文忠：我要講的是，很多這樣的措施，即使只有280幾人，我們一樣會來服務。"],["徐委員巧芯：我理解，我也很支持你們做這樣子的服務。"],["李副主任委員文忠：非常謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：但我們今天的問題是就養給付，剛剛我有講這分成兩個不同的部分，但是我們看到從2017年到2024年，像以基本工資來說，每年都在漲，然後比方說我們基本工資的月薪漲了百分之三十，我們先不要看月薪，因為他們領的也不是屬於薪水，可是我們看到消費者物價指數CPI上漲了百分之十，我們的就養給付調整，從2017年調漲百分之九，對此，副主委您怎麼看？您覺得目前這個調整是合理的嗎？還是未來能夠有更多？還是在什麼時間點上面，我們有考慮讓它可以更多？"],["李副主任委員文忠：我不是要比較，但前政府的時候只調過一次，現在的政府我們調了三次，這是第一句話；第二句話，我很贊成，像今年物價指數上漲不只百分之四，我們調百分之四已經是史上最高，但是我們仍然向行政院反映，希望調更高，這是我們應該做的。"],["徐委員巧芯：希望調更高這件事情我全力支持，因為我覺得我們的榮民朋友他們為國付出了這麼多，這是他們值得的。"],["李副主任委員文忠：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：尤其是現在通貨膨脹，電費又上漲，對他們來說也是一筆不小的開銷。"],["李副主任委員文忠：所以跟委員報告，是不是關於退休軍公教跟剛講的就養榮民部分，因為這裡面有一些制度的規定，請大院的委員協助我們，是不是可以來做一些改變？"],["徐委員巧芯：好啊！我們會後也能夠再繼續討論。"],["李副主任委員文忠：謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：今年預計是在5月1號發放，發放的時間已經確定下來了嗎？可不可以讓大家知道一下？"],["李副主任委員文忠：跟委員報告，因為有一些作業程序，但可以追溯到1月1號。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，追溯到1月1號的時間，所以我們今年會來發放。可不可以在最後總結一下，就是今年發放整個調整的狀況，就是成長的狀況請再跟大家稍微的介紹一下。"],["李副主任委員文忠：就是調整百分之四，上一次是調整百分之二，雖然我們認為百分之四仍然比不上物價調漲，但卻是史上最高。"],["徐委員巧芯：下一次開會再討論調整可能會是在什麼時候？"],["李副主任委員文忠：這個要問政府，過去的經驗，現任軍公教人員薪資調整，大概是兩年到三年會調一次，過去八年的經驗是這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等 89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":2.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.14346875,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.30784375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.337218750000002,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.71034375,"end":52.664093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.664093750000006,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.73159375,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.27159375,"end":71.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.27721875,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.42846875000001,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.76534375,"end":79.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.78221875,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.78971875,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.50096875000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.76659375000001,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.09409375000001,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.19534375,"end":109.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.61721875,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.66784375,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.71846875000001,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.23721875000001,"end":111.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.29409375,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.73659375,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.75346875,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.37346875,"end":130.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.81221875,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":146.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.69596875000002,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.18534375000002,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.69159375,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.72534375,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.91096875,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.38346875000002,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.43346875,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.39534375000002,"end":155.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.41596875000002,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.78721875000002,"end":155.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.82096875000002,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.59284375000001,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.95471875,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.98846875,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.67159375,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.60721875000002,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.04596875000001,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.75034375,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.96971875,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.91034375,"end":178.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.01534375,"end":182.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.06534375,"end":186.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.47846875000002,"end":191.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.11096875,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.29221875000002,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.83909375000002,"end":235.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.24721875,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.55471875,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.02721875,"end":254.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.88346875000002,"end":242.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.02221875,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.18534375000002,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.02909375000002,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.61909375,"end":260.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.30596875000003,"end":265.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.50409375000004,"end":267.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.91659375,"end":287.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.93221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壓或者進行一些五二零之前的一些小動作有沒有可能我想所有的可能都有但是我們還是"},{"start":157.279,"end":159.38,"text":"市場、市場風扇、風扇是非常重要的,不能依賴中國市場,因為中國市場是危險的市場,雖然市場很巨大,但是它是我們敵國啊。"},{"start":179.908,"end":181.549,"text":"市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":197.013,"end":210.661,"text":"市場交易法到中國的比例現在降低到多少?市場交易法來說?市場交易法大概三層吧?大概是四層四層到五層"},{"start":213.331,"end":215.693,"text":"市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":240.988,"end":270.003,"text":"同樣是東亞那韓國市場也可以去開拓啊不要只覺得日本日本當然有有它的市場但是還是有它局限性嘛所以我希望說是未來東南亞也可以特別是這個農業產品的全球化不要盡量盡可能的所有在中國投資的這些企業慢慢就離開中國到東南亞對不對同樣我們的市場也要從中要要去中國化不能依賴或者過度依賴"},{"start":271.266,"end":277.441,"text":"所以全球化的布局非常重要那需要這個你要有全球化的這個這個全球市場的這個觀點"},{"start":280.678,"end":304.474,"text":"這個你回一下我想整個目前的全球化我想我們國際市跟產業主管機關都已經在做整體的佈局那一個非常重要的就是通路的連結啦因為通路連結對這個問題已經告訴你們是說中國市場很不穩定充滿了威脅充滿了這個不確定性所以你要提及早佈局到其他包括日本包括東南亞包括這個韓國那另外這個"},{"start":309.318,"end":332.423,"text":"四、五月大概是裕和包的產季。對。那今年為何裕和包的產季,為什麼今年的產量會那麼的少?主要的原因是什麼?我想那個荔枝跟龍眼一樣,它在開花的時候它需要一些涼溫。那今年那個溫度,就是溫度比較高,造成它的涼溫度不夠。有可能會變成說,這個常態性的嘛。"},{"start":333.383,"end":360.34,"text":"這個就是我們擔心的對,面臨長期擔心,你知道這個月包一年的產季只有這短短的兩個禮拜三個禮拜對剩兩個禮拜,那他們一年的這個投入就是為了這兩三個禮拜的這個產季那如果產量大減,他們收入大部分是血本無歸啊是那這個有沒有相關補償措施呢我跟委員說明喔,我現在正在思考就是這種極端天候對於果樹,因為果樹不能移動"},{"start":361.801,"end":379.688,"text":"我想以後可能這種遇到這種天然災害的那個頻度會越來越高所以未來整個的產區的可能的一個千的板塊的移動我想我們正在做評估那至於說怎麼樣讓現有的這些癒合包等這些荔枝齁能夠忍受更多的"},{"start":383.91,"end":409.625,"text":"因為他的收入跟去年比較是收入減少了七成,有沒有對相關的農民有相關的補償?我現在是沒有,現在只是針對天然災害。那廣義來說他也是天然災害,是極端氣候所引起,高溫所引起的產量最減。所以這部分我想你們還是要體恤的農民,因為他靠天吃飯靠天氣,那這種要補償或者相關的補貼措施,"},{"start":410.936,"end":411.056,"text":"邱志偉"}]}},{"id":"152312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71fd036c7592aeb8bc5e31cafebf20a13d36499d1b681a2ac7da277b577d0128215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：打俄羅斯，有多少位？"],["田次長中光：我沒有辦法馬上告訴你，但是我們有原住民同胞去幫他們打了仗，這一點我們是十分、十分的感激及感謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：結果如何？原住民有多少人？"],["田次長中光：原住民的部分，如果我沒有記錯的話，大概是1位吧！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：戰死的，你們外交部有什麼協助？剛剛你多麼讚賞啊！那外交部有什麼協助？沒有協助！"],["田次長中光：我們應該有褒揚，而且給他一些撫卹，這個細節我再跟您報告，好不好？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！這個部分……"],["主席：曾聖光的案子請會後跟鄭委員報告。"],["田次長中光：細節我再跟您報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不要講得那麼振振有詞！原住民什麼地方都敢去，抗中保臺，我們是最抗中保臺的，所以這個部分我要特別請外交部，他是政務官，我是30年公務員，公務員要有為有守；政務官不對的，你要建議他說：這樣不太好吧！我特別建議我們事務官。"],["田次長中光：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，謝謝，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等 89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":2.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.41034375,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.20159375,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.05346875,"end":19.875968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.84596875,"end":23.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.92159375,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.68909375,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.254093750000003,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.650343750000005,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.48971875,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.932218750000004,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.180343750000006,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.024093750000006,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.25596875,"end":45.627218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.627218750000004,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.98159375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.032218750000006,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.268468750000004,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.02784375,"end":47.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.80409375,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.110343750000006,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.00471875,"end":68.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.18909375,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.35346875,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.22659375,"end":71.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.90534375,"end":75.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.12846875000001,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.45721875000001,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.09346875,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.25346875000001,"end":88.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.65409375,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":94.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.25221875000001,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.33596875,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.33159375000001,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.07409375,"end":105.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.59721875000001,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.44471875,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.71471875,"end":106.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.84971875000001,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.50784375,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.73096875,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.43534375,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.02971875,"end":116.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.55659375,"end":120.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.12596875000001,"end":122.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.40846875000001,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.46721875,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.69909375,"end":126.99846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.18409375,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.01096875000002,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.81659375,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.06534375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.53346875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.03534375,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.65534375000001,"end":137.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.41034375,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.50721875000002,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.37596875,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.43471875,"end":146.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.7122187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灣之後．有沒有．"},{"start":43.223,"end":47.925,"text":"國防部主管預算凍結案等11年度中央政府總預算凍結案等11年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":72.338,"end":96.849,"text":"外交部政務次長我們中華民國要去協助國外比如說我們就以烏克蘭協助烏克蘭中共有說不行嗎?有說不行嗎?"},{"start":100.396,"end":123.002,"text":"有嗎?會嗎?你要理他?怕他嗎?這不是怕他我們要把一個工作做得好我們方方面面都要顧慮到既然我們這邊是列為機密我問你外交部中華民國政府要給捷克"},{"start":125.948,"end":140.067,"text":"從捷克再轉到烏克蘭．或從別的國家．三個國家轉過去．有沒有告訴他們說．你們在簽的時候．有沒有說要秘密．要機密．要有人密件．有沒有"},{"start":141.82,"end":164.875,"text":"跟委員報告每個國家的國情不一樣每個國家的國情不一樣他所面對的挑戰不一樣我們不能告訴你這個要列密你這個不能列密我想我們從來沒有做過這種事情我們對自己國家我們的注意最起碼你表達你連表達都沒有表達然後現在已經公開3月就公開了"},{"start":171.594,"end":198.129,"text":"這第一個第二個你買好你就問他清單你要什麼烏克蘭要什麼烏克蘭要什麼提供給我我這邊買好就直接送去更快啊更快啊急啊多急很急啊真的很急啊好我問最後一個問題"},{"start":202.662,"end":229.808,"text":"中華民國的人民為了乌克蘭協助打戰打俄羅斯有多少位?我沒有辦法馬上告訴你但是我們原住民同胞也去幫忙打了仗這一點我們是十分十分的感激和感謝結果如何?"},{"start":232.202,"end":250.545,"text":"有多少人?原住民有多少人?原住民部分,如果我沒有記錯的話,大概是一位吧。暫時的你們外交部有什麼協助?你多麼讚賞啊,那外交部有什麼協助?"},{"start":252.217,"end":278.839,"text":"我們應該有保養而且給他一些撫恤這個細節我再跟您報告好不好不要講細節我再跟您報告原住民什麼地方都敢去抗中保台我們是最抗中保台的所以這個部分我要特別請外交部的他是政務官我是30年公務員"},{"start":281.601,"end":281.901,"text":"主管預算凍結案等16案"}]}},{"id":"152311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71c2294cc784708cf76811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac73dda3dec39bdc3285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:27:43 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10.124,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":18.252,"end":45.573,"text":"張委員早院長好就是說非常感謝就是週一的安排讓我們可以很近身的去觀察這些修復的藝術那我真的覺得這個修復師的生命真的是孤獨又燦爛的生命那就是延續剛剛前面幾位委員的一些關心我想大家都非常關心這個修復師的人力還有庫房管理的人力因為這也是當時在說人力有所不足那前面其實也有委員問到說我們人因為這是關心到這個人事的編制上面的緣額"},{"start":47.154,"end":47.975,"text":"新內閣進入後,院長會否去爭取?"},{"start":77.755,"end":78.815,"text":"明年正值故宮一百年回顧過去展望未來"},{"start":97.469,"end":119.945,"text":"故宮要跟世界說明我們的一個定位我們的方向那這一次我看到在所有的部展裡面不管是國際的或是國內的我們有很多的展都是以宋朝的一些藝術品做一些展出那我想要講就是說我們在故宮幾年在北京故宮幾年在台北又是幾年呢"},{"start":122.285,"end":132.095,"text":"沒關係直接回答我哪一個時間比較長好了在台北比較長在台北的話1965年在外雙溪的話到現在60年59年然後再加北溝的話大概13年還是17年我現在要算一下總共73年在台灣"},{"start":145.507,"end":145.928,"text":"這部分想請教院長"},{"start":173.616,"end":195.055,"text":"當然故宮一百plus我們不要用一百的話就是一百plus的話就表示說我們會往前看但是因為以目前來講的話我們大概就是會做一個回顧成為剛委員講的話以宋朝的文物為主因為宋朝的文物是故宮博物院宋冶明清裡面最"},{"start":195.956,"end":198.137,"text":"所以我想問一下這個100plus是指說接下來明年之後嗎?"},{"start":219.489,"end":221.051,"text":"所以我們在哪一個系列會把台灣的這些元素放進去呢?"},{"start":228.332,"end":229.694,"text":"對,但是我是說在這個故宮百年系列展裡面有嗎?我們有規劃嗎?"},{"start":250.492,"end":279.092,"text":"只要告訴我有沒有好不好我跟委員報告一下因為這個就是很敏感因為我們放了太多的臺灣元素的話就會出現兩個字就是因為你加入比如說我們故宮北院然後故宮南院的話蓋故宮南院就是為了兩個字同樣的如果我們加了過多的臺灣元素的話又會有那兩個字大小院長我現在看起來是因為我們幾乎沒有臺灣元素因為我們現在基本上我覺得我們還是要去做出一個差異化"},{"start":279.672,"end":293.439,"text":"我們在展覽裡面有一個夾子萬年就是講說故宮博物院在台灣這一夾子裡面跟文物的故事跟關係人物的關係所以我們會有這樣的一個東西但是直接"},{"start":294.48,"end":296.02,"text":"回顧到我們講基金是我們能不能聘請人力的一個很重要的一個裁員"},{"start":321.807,"end":347.265,"text":"那我現在看到我們其實是有短卓三千多萬在今年的預算裡面我們看起來是不夠的那我們就來看我們要如何賺錢好不好那我看一下我們之前有做一個網路的資料調查其實你們也調查了來客率就是說來訪的人數訪客在北院的話年紀是比較長的南院是比較年輕的可是有一個很重要的重點就是在北院幾乎在未到訪以未滿15歲的比例為最高達到了將近四成"},{"start":348.206,"end":370.36,"text":"南院則是以15到24歲的比例最高,佔41.2%所以這看起來是有兩個問題我們要來處理的首先我們先來處理一個我們如何去吸引所謂的15到24歲的人來我們的故宮百年文創我們現在做的這百年文創的紀念品紀念油票、紀念幣、紀念酒其實是非常適合我們現在所謂的主要客群就是50歲以上的"},{"start":371.741,"end":371.861,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":393.531,"end":420.279,"text":"有看過有看過嗎?有看過對不對?看起來我看院長都會心一笑齁就其實這個東西是在日本出的一系列的喔他們不僅有出這樣子的自由女神的扭蛋喔那這個民眾就買了之後還是開始回去哭手做很多不同的創意這樣那還有他們還有跟紐約大都會博物館也有做一系列的部分那我就在想我們是不是可以把這件事情變成扭蛋呢?"},{"start":421.317,"end":429.539,"text":"我們可不可以有更多的創意去吸引我們的年輕人為了這件事情來到走進故宮有沒有更多的誘因這是不是一個可行性的方向"},{"start":430.701,"end":459.913,"text":"基本上來講的話除了我們那個計畫中比較制式的一個文創商品之外的話其實我們現在在想說如何跟台灣的百年老店結合讓他們跟故宮聯名那另外的話我們會鼓勵就是說不同的所有跟故宮合作過的業者他們都可以在故宮百年100plus的中間開發是他們的文創商品那當然不排除把聯名繼續往下降"},{"start":460.866,"end":473.913,"text":"對,因為我覺得我們最大的問題是15到24歲的人不來了這個地方是我們必須要去解決的因為它如果如果我們可以在這個時候去把它吸引進來我們就有可能去補足未來人口凋零的這個問題那再來就是說針對15歲以下因為我們剛剛還有15歲以下的問題嘛"},{"start":479.116,"end":505.724,"text":"在北院15歲以下的將近四成人沒有來過故宮那我看了一下就是紐約大都會博物館啊多倫多皇家安大陸博物館都是國家級的博物館他們都有針對18歲以下的小孩以不同的年齡層去開發不同型的課程作為他們學校校外教學的活動那目前我看是故宮南院有做類似的那不曉得說我們在故宮北院是不是也可以以這個方向來做一些規劃"},{"start":507.144,"end":532.797,"text":"故宮北院的兒育中心基本上來講大家擔心說北院的兒育中心開了之後北院的那個地下一樓的那個兒童的那個空間會不會取消不會那個會繼續但是北院的兒育中心就是現在第二行政大樓跟那個我們四棟的舊的宿舍的話我們就會變成是一個教案教協的一個可以受惠的一個場域"},{"start":533.541,"end":533.701,"text":"提供故宮博物院規劃"},{"start":553.07,"end":570.042,"text":"故宮對於兒童青少年我們原則上的話都盡量採取免費的一個服務包括志工當然都免費對我知道因為他小時候進來嘛長大他才有可能持續的進來我們其實在為未來的客人幫他招募進來那我還是想的就是說我們還是要去賺未來一直一直去賺錢好不好"},{"start":571.812,"end":593.284,"text":"所以這個資料我也可以提供給故宮那再來延續一下我不好意思我再接一點時間就是故宮兒童學藝中心我們有收到民眾來陳情就是說3C數位的設備過多而且自費量非常非常多對於學齡前的孩子來說其實並不友善那當時故宮回應我的是說我們有辦了26場互動活動但是我想院長一定非常曉得右下角那張照片就是南門博物館"},{"start":595.325,"end":611.361,"text":"我們其實活動行程跟長社展可以讓他去觸碰的那個感覺還是不一樣就學齡前的孩子他的資質量不夠多他還是需要透過互動、接觸、觸摸種種的那種感受性的方式去增加他跟這個藝術品跟這個博物館的一些經驗"},{"start":613.582,"end":627.22,"text":"右上角其實是多倫多的安大略自然史博物館它裡面就是有一些挖掘的我想這個院長一定非常熟悉所以我在想說未來我們是不是可以針對學藝中心去做一些調整讓一些幼齡的孩子進來的時候他也可以在這邊跟藝術品互動"},{"start":627.981,"end":646.234,"text":"其實那個二一中心的話那個數位互動的話因為他在面牆上面但是事實上我們的每不同的時間都有推廣教育活動就是在桌面上的所以有時候進去的時候沒有看到桌面上的教育推廣活動只看到牆上他就會覺得說好像只有那些其實不是"},{"start":653.598,"end":674.489,"text":"對,沒錯,真的是一個問題,因為像我自己,像多寶閣那時候我也很想參加,但我也沒有報到名所以我的意思是說,因為那個真的是活動設計得非常好啦可是我報不到的時候,我就變成,我就沒東西可以玩可是我既然都來了,我們就還是回到那個問題嘛,我們要讓更多的人走進故宮所以這件事情我們可不可以在學藝的長設展的部分去做一些修正"},{"start":675.438,"end":684.015,"text":"好,我們滾動式修正包括藍燕也是有不同的觀點所以這個我們會來整體檢討做一個滾動式修正好,謝謝,謝謝院長,謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf715436ebaac8b2d937827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7a11b46a314bfa5925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:28:46 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10:36:27","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":461,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:36:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:28:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時28分）不好意思，我請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：我們今天討論的是議員跟村里長，其實上個禮拜國民黨在院會裡面抽出了幾案，可是我仔細看了一下，我不知道部長有沒有注意到，它抽出幾案並沒有很全盤的去處理這個問題。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：如果照這樣子處理的話，到時候施行你們會不會有問題？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，在討論思考這件事情的時候，我們是把整個的支給制度，全部做了完整的一個討論跟研究。所以在行政院版的部分，大家可以看到有包括助理的補助費，另外還有他的加班費、他的資遣費，甚至包括為民服務費還有村里長的年終慰勞金，甚至也包括原住民的部分也考慮了進來，所以行政院版是一個比較完整、全面的一個方案。甚至剛剛有幾位委員臨時有提到，包括地方鄉鎮市代表的部分，我們也一併做了修正，所以行政院版是一個比較完整、配套的一個方案。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，行政院版是面面俱到啦！我看他們抽出來版本裡面有好幾個項目都沒有處理到……"],["林部長右昌：這樣子可能會掛一漏萬。"],["張委員宏陸：對，已經掛一漏萬了，我們看到抽出來的版本就已經掛一漏萬了，所以部長這樣講就很明確了。村里長跟議員的問題已經討論許久了，但外界有的人會覺得這好像是加薪、好像是什麼，其實我們檢視（縣）市議員，我說的不是直轄市議員喔！（縣）市議員，你看這個金額，如果以現在的物價水準來講，確實是有所不足啦，這我們真的也是必須要檢討了啦！所以部長，行政院版跟我覺得不只三十幾個，還有很多的委員的版本，其實都在陸續提出來中，所以今天如果大家好好的討論出一個完整的版本、好的版本，部長支持還是不支持？"],["林部長右昌：我們當然是支持。"],["張委員宏陸：好，支持，所以我必須要說，部長，我們如果解決了這個問題之後，我其實也一直跟大家討論很久了，這個行政區劃法，未來我們是不是應該要去檢討了，你覺得呢？"],["林部長右昌：當然行政區劃討論已久，它有好多的層次，這是在縣市的層次，另外委員提到在村里的行政區也的確有這個狀況，不過這都是由地方政府去考量，目前狀況的確有的里很大，可能到一萬人、兩萬人都有，有的里很小，可能在一千人以下，所以其實大小差異蠻大的，這部分的確地方政府是應該來做一些村里行政區上面的劃分調整，讓它更為合理。"],["張委員宏陸：就舉我的選區板橋來看，最大的里跟最小的里人數差了12倍，戶數差了17倍，其實這個很難……"],["林部長右昌：里長的事務費還是一樣……"],["張委員宏陸：一樣啊！我說這個行政區劃法，我覺得村里長也要檢討，但這是地方政府的權責，我一直覺得我們配合國土區劃法還有這個，很多生活圈已經都改變了，什麼也都變了，這其實是到了一個要檢討的程度，我不知道部長你的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：我想委員剛剛提的方向是很正確的。"],["張委員宏陸：方向正確，當然我也知道不可能今天說明天就馬上做……"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個牽扯太廣……"],["林部長右昌：行政院也在做相關的討論。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我也知道，所以我覺得既然要解決問題應該就要整個配套，這樣整個臺灣未來的發展才會比較好，對不對？部長，你認為呢？"],["林部長右昌：贊成，委員剛剛講的是正確的。"],["張委員宏陸：好，那我們該努力的就努力啦！"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不要讓它中斷了，就繼續做，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：另外，也跟委員補充一下，因為剛剛也有幾位委員提到並關心經費的問題，我這邊也稍微補充報告一下，實際上109年到113年，我們中央對於直轄市跟縣市政府的一般性的補助款，還有中央的統籌分配稅款其實增加很多，在109年度時，全國各縣市中央補助一般性的補助款是1,762億，到了113年的時候已經來到2,303億，如果再加計中央統籌分配稅款的話，在109年是4,709億，113年是6,346億。簡單來講，這幾年中央對地方政府的補助其實增加的幅度很高，以委員的新北市為例，109年中央跟一般的補助款在新北市補了404億，其中一般性的補助款是67億，到了113年的時候，合計是570億，一般性的補助款也有102億。簡單來講，增加的幅度很高，這次我們進行相關的修法，對於所增加的經費，其實地方政府基本上都有能力可以因應。至於有極少部分的縣市可能需要中央來補助，這部分會由院裡面包括主總還有人總等等來進行後續相關的研議處理。"],["張委員宏陸：部長你說的沒有錯，但是還有一個，這幾年前瞻計畫補助地方，地方基礎建設也省了很多錢，這個也要算下去，光新北也算千億的，對不對？","另外，未來要處理的房地合一稅，這些都是地方稅，所以地方財源其實也會增加很多……"],["林部長右昌：是，這幾年是增加的。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，一定是增加的，所以我覺得這個經費的問題還是要照規定來處理，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張宏陸委員的發言。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時44分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，請王美惠委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.574093750000001,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.20221875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.556593750000001,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.20971875,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.01596875,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.15534375,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.81346875000001,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.72346875000001,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.42346875000001,"end":119.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.96159375,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.55909375000002,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.64971875,"end":145.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.82659375,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.58596875,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.75721875000002,"end":158.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.61346875,"end":167.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.73471875,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.74284375000002,"end":173.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.92784375000002,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.99034375000002,"end":182.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.75346875000002,"end":191.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.10221875000002,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.13096875000002,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.21096875,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.08846875,"end":199.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.26971875,"end":209.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.85471875000002,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.51284375,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.72221875000002,"end":248.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.18596875000003,"end":253.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.05909375000002,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.32284375,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.40534375000004,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.43846875,"end":288.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.77534375,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.42909375,"end":289.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.06159375000004,"end":300.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.97159375,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.40596875,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.45221875000004,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.86534375,"end":304.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.01721875000004,"end":304.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.50659375000004,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.61596875000004,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.01659375,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.48909375,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.50159375000004,"end":309.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.75034375,"end":317.53409375},{"speaker":"S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我也知道 所以我是覺得說既然這個解決問題應該整個配套這樣整個臺灣未來的發展才會比較好啦 對不對部長你認為贊成 委員剛剛講的是正確的好 那我們就"},{"start":306.931,"end":319.005,"text":"該努力的就努力啦就不要讓他中斷就繼續做啦好不好另外委員這個也跟你補充一下因為剛剛之前也有幾位委員可能有提到在關心這個經費的一個問題我在這邊也稍微補充報告一下"},{"start":323.691,"end":341.709,"text":"實際上我們109年到113年我們中央對於直轄市跟縣市政府的一般性的補助款還有中央的統籌分配稅款其實增加很多在109年度的時候全國各縣市中央補助的一般性的補助款是1762億"},{"start":344.432,"end":371.131,"text":"那到了113年的時候已經來到了2303億那如果再加計中央的統籌分配稅款的話在109年是4709億到了113年是6346億所以簡單來講中央對地方政府的補助在這幾年其實增加的幅度很高那以委員的這個新北市為例的話"},{"start":374.092,"end":397.242,"text":"這個109年中央跟一般的補助款呢在新北市是補了404億那其中一般性的補助款是67億那到了113年的時候合計是到了570億那一般性的補助款也有102億所以他簡單來講就是說這個增加的一個幅度很高那這一次"},{"start":398.022,"end":421.82,"text":"我們進行相關的一個修法那所增加的經費其實地方政府基本上都有能力可以來因應那至於有極少部分的縣市他可能需要中央來補助那這部分會由院裡面然後還有包括我們的族種還有人種等等來進行相關的一個後續的一個研議來處理"},{"start":423.363,"end":448.728,"text":"部長你說的沒有錯,但還有一個,這幾年前瞻計畫補助地方,地方基礎建設他也省了很多錢,這個也要算下去了,這個光新北我也算千億了,對不對,這是一個。另外,房地合一稅未來要處理,這些都是地方稅,所以地方的財源其實也會增加很多。是,這幾年是增加的。"},{"start":449.229,"end":456.986,"text":"對阿一定是增加的啦所以我覺得這個經費的問題我覺得還是要照規定來處理啦對不對是好謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71360cfa933ae04e41827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac725d39fa0c7cb71d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:18:21 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10:28:38","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":617,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:28:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:18:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時18分）謝謝主席，有請內政部部長。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。想要請教一下，近期警政署有爆出我們第一線的警察局兄弟使用防彈衣，抗凹陷板存在有瑕疵，對於第一線的執行人員人身安全造成很嚴重的威脅，目前警政署是說一切合法，想要請教一下部長，在驗收新防彈衣的過程中，內政部具體是如何進行的，為何這樣惡質的防彈衣可以驗收通過？還有請教部長，對於此次防彈衣的瑕疵有進行全面調查，還有調查的結果是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝委員的詢問，不過驗收的部分是警政署在驗收，我是不是請警政署來做說明？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["黃副組長維明：委員好、召委好、部長好。針對委員剛剛的提問，我們今年（112年度）背心式防彈衣是採公開招標還有最低標的方式辦理，當時有兩家廠商投標，分別是光研公司還有萬寶程公司來投標，在當時審標的時候，它資格都是符合的，我們當時招標規定是兩家廠商投標的時候，要請廠商提供樣衣，都經過我們送交到國內外檢測機構來……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為我現在問的是我們是不是招標的問題，現在就是說我們的驗收如何驗收？有瑕疵的防彈衣如何調查？調查的結果是什麼？如果你說招標的廠商的話，所以請問一下，現在你們的進度或者是我們要怎麼樣去抽換，什麼時候完成？還有你說廠商都是合法的，但是照你們的報告回應裡面是這個廠商是列入黑名單，已經禁止三年招標了，但是現在你還是一樣讓這個廠商通過招標，沒有要去改進，還有那個制度是如何？這樣子的話就是這幾年你們的其他廠商都不合法，這個是禁止三年的，它再回來招標，你們又給它去標，這樣子的話你覺得我們第一線警察的安全如何把關？這個才是我們關心的。"],["陳科長志豪：報告委員，我是承辦這件防彈衣的科長，我跟您報告一下，首先我們的驗收程序是按照我們的契約規定去處理，我們廠商報驗的時候，我們親自到工廠去抽取，隨機抽驗21件的產品進行國內外的檢測，國內是檢測它的……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以防彈衣不是每件每件去抽查，而是樣本抽查，這樣子我們警察穿到如果有案件發生，警察就是自認倒楣了？不是這樣子的驗收吧？我們驗收是要安全，希望驗收是全部驗收，不是只有樣本驗收，這樣子的話太離譜了。一般我們要去驗收，連一支筆都要馬上就算足，我們標案是這樣，但是你們驗收是樣本驗收，這樣子太離譜了。"],["陳科長志豪：報告委員，我們驗收是先點數量，確定數量全部都到齊之後，才會按照契約去抽取我們要檢測的數量，因為六千多件全部要檢測的話，其實牽扯到後續驗收的成本……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果我身為一個警察，這樣子驗收的方式，我覺得不行，我問的是驗收，但是你這樣子回答，你調查結果還有抽查發現有瑕疵品，你們要怎麼去做調查？後面怎麼去抽換？"],["林部長右昌：委員我跟你報告，因為依據相關公共採購的程序，驗收有一定的一個程序，驗收的內容也一定就是照契約，這是第一點。第二個，驗收一定是抽驗，它不可能是六千多件，每一件都驗，所以這個採購跟你剛剛提到的買原子筆，這個是完全不一樣，沒有辦法這樣子來比。不過，原子筆是……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，沒辦法來比，所以我才說要安全嘛，讓警察都安全，所以大家要穿防彈衣，但是如果……"],["林部長右昌：當然，它有瑕疵品的話，我們就依契約來要求更換。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在大家發現有這樣子的問題，如果我們的警察真正穿上然後中槍的話，這樣是誰負責？這個是人命啦！"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。所以我們發現瑕疵品的話，一定依契約要求它立即做更換。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，還有這個廠商已經是禁止招標了，有3年禁標期，雖然3年後他合法，但是我們難道沒有其他合法的廠商嗎？時間的關係，你沒有回答到我們的問題。","第二個問題，我要請教一下，因為12年了都沒有去改變居住水準。基本居住水準代表每一個人最小坪數居住的空間，依據住宅法第四十條第二項的規定：「前項基本居住水準，中央主管機關應每四年進行檢視修正。」但我們看到從101年到現在從未修正。還有在107年的時候也才只增訂法源授權，但是12年了，內政部都沒有修正基本居住水準指標，沒有再調整。這個部分，想要請教部長，怎麼樣才是符合時宜的基本居住水準？"],["林部長右昌：基本的居住水準，這一部分內政部國土署都在滾動的檢討，我上任之後，其實也請國土署針對這一部分做相關的一個研議。你剛剛提到的基本居住水準，其實它是要依整個國家跟社會發展的一個狀態，來做一些調整……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，但是發展到現在我們都沒有去修正，就是部長說的，國家的發展還有居住的空間要去改變嘛！但是12年了沒有去改變，所以這樣子的居住水準可以了嗎？我們民眾真的有受到照顧嗎？"],["林部長右昌：剛剛委員有提到，其實我們國土署已經在研議了。"],["麥委員玉珍：每次問都是研議、在準備、再檢討，這樣子的效果是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：因為這個必須要慎重……"],["麥委員玉珍：慎重12年了都沒有去改變，所以慎重到什麼時候？"],["林部長右昌：至少我上任之後，我已經交代他們要做相關的修正。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在已經快要卸任了，所以上任的時候交代，但現在快要卸任了……"],["林部長右昌：不過我跟委員報告，這個東西要調不是那麼簡單，因為它牽一髮動全身……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，但是我們希望……"],["林部長右昌：而且這個會影響到很多民眾的權益，另外在做相關都市計畫的規劃跟設計的時候，也都一併會受到影響，所以這部分為什麼他們要特別慎重的原因在這邊。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是慎重也要去調整啦！希望真正能照顧到我們的居民，不是以前的標準跟水準這樣就可以了……"],["林部長右昌：當然。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長剛才也有講，我們那麼多年了一定要改變，但是到現在還沒有改變，所以希望你卸任之前，是不是可以去改變，真正地照顧到我們的居民？"],["林部長右昌：不要用我要卸任的期限來畫一條線，這個是國土署本來都在做相關的研議……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是現在要做……"],["林部長右昌：社會一定也要進步，我想這部分大家都有共識。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，但是12年了，不是看你上任還是卸任，但是在你上任的時候就要求，但是現在你沒有追蹤，也沒有結果。"],["林部長右昌：我們有追蹤、也有進度。"],["麥委員玉珍：進度、結果在哪裡，可以提供給我嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有問題，我請國土署再給委員說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為很多縣市都沒有去做家戶的改善，如果有這樣子標準認定的話，你看很多縣市都沒有去做，所以希望要給我一個報告，可以嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝麥玉珍委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個都沒有去改變嘛，剛好我們看到就要提出來，因為照顧不是……"],["王委員美惠：時間上啦……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，就是時間，所以希望部長要給我們一個回應，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢。下一位張宏陸委員，張宏陸委員質詢完我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.46034375,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.371593750000001,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.83471875,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.04971875,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.36596875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.27596875,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.627218750000004,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.257843750000006,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.98221875,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.04909375,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.01471875,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.02971875,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.22721875,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.99471875,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.36971875,"end":101.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.31034375,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.23846875000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.48284375,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.74409375,"end":109.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.83659375,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.01346875,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.75971875,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.36096875,"end":185.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.64721875,"end":209.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.72846875000002,"end":216.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.38221875000002,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.13221875000002,"end":216.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.53721875000002,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.18159375000002,"end":225.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.44284375,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.29346875000002,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.42846875,"end":248.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.15659375,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.25221875,"end":268.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.99346875000003,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.16534375000003,"end":274.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.32971875000004,"end":275.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.63721875000005,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.16284375000004,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.35221875,"end":331.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.01784375,"end":333.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.07596875,"end":346.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.88846875,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.83721875000003,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.98034375000003,"end":354.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.94596875,"end":384.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.65846875,"end":416.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.28659375,"end":421.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.45034375,"end":426.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.45784375000005,"end":452.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.22659375,"end":466.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.57409375000003,"end":471.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.65409375,"end":467.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.37971875000005,"end":473.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.35784375000003,"end":478.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.52159375,"end":481.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.59721875,"end":484.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.04409375000006,"end":484.07346875},{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如果是身為一個警察這樣子的驗收的話 我覺得沒辦法 所以你們 我問的就是說你們的驗收但是你回答是這樣子 你的調查的結果還有抽查 現在我們是有這樣子的傻子餅 你們要怎麼樣去做調查 怎麼樣去後面要來去抽換的"},{"start":291.734,"end":304.424,"text":"一句相關的一個公共採購的一個程序他驗收有一定的一個程序他也一定驗收的這個內容也一定就是照契約這是第一點第二個是這個抽這個"},{"start":305.365,"end":305.405,"text":"議員：麥玉珍"},{"start":333.326,"end":348.854,"text":"現在大家就是發現有這樣子的問題如果是真正我們的警察穿出來就背這個重槍的話這樣是誰負責這個是人命是當然所以我們發現瑕疵品的話因為企業要求他立即幫他做更換對還有說這個廠商已經是禁止"},{"start":355.017,"end":355.217,"text":"委員會議事日程"},{"start":384.977,"end":385.038,"text":"議事日程。"},{"start":385.811,"end":393.736,"text":"小的評述就是依據我們第40條第二項的規定前項就是說居住水準但是中央每4年都要修正但我們現在看到的就從101年到現在成為修正還有在107年的時候也曾經就是修訂原收權但是其中就是從12年內政部都沒有修正這個基本"},{"start":415.551,"end":442.178,"text":"的水準標準沒有再去挑這個部分想要我們部長怎麼樣才是說居住水準基本的居住水準我想這一部分內政部其實都在滾國土署其實都在滾動的一個檢討我上禮之後其實也請國土署針對這一部分做相關的一個研議那你剛剛提到的"},{"start":444.719,"end":465.755,"text":"這個基本的居住水準其實它是要依整個國家跟社會發展的一個狀態發展到現在我們都沒有去修正國家的發展就是部長說的國家的發展還有居住的空間要去改變但是12年了沒有去改變所以變成說這樣子的居住水準"},{"start":466.636,"end":471.28,"text":"每次問都是研議再準備再檢討這樣子的話效果是什麼因為這個就必須要慎重慎重12年了都沒有去改變"},{"start":483.329,"end":512.789,"text":"所以正中到什麼時候?這個至少我上任之後我已經交代他們要做相關的一個修正所以現在已經快要卸任了所以到現在上任的時候交到現在快要卸任了不過委員我跟你報告這個東西你要調不是那麼簡單沒錯但是我們希望 因為他簽一法動全身而且這個會影響到很多民眾的一個權益那另外在做相關的一個都市計畫的一個規劃跟設計的時候也都一定會受到影響所以這一部分為什麼他們要特別慎重的原因在這邊"},{"start":513.109,"end":541.905,"text":"是,但是慎重也要去調整啦希望真正的是照顧到我們的居民不是說以前的標準跟水準這樣就可以了這樣的話我們真的是部長剛才也有講嘛是不是我們要那麼多年了已經要改變但是到現在還沒有改變所以希望這個部分要你卸任之前是不是說可以再去改變真正的去照顧到我們的居民"},{"start":542.325,"end":555.851,"text":"不用用我要卸任的這來畫一條線這個是國土署他們本來都在做相關的研議那社會一定也要進步我想這部分大家都懂事我們是有追蹤也有進度這樣進度結果在哪裡可以"},{"start":568.537,"end":595.305,"text":"沒有問題,我要請國土署再給委員說明。因為很多縣市裡面有很多都沒有去做家屋的改善。如果是有這樣子的標準認定的話,是否就是我們……我們下一頁再看一下。這個你看喔,很多縣市都沒有去做這樣子的。對,所以希望就是要給我一個報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":597.279,"end":597.699,"text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員"}]}},{"id":"152308","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71b902c4a884056a16827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac77b4bad54927d78b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:10:21 - 10:18:12","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":471,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:18:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:10:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時10分）謝謝主席。在我開始質詢之前，我覺得還是不吐不快啦！我其實非常感謝今天主席排了這個全國都關注的議題，因為不管是地方民意代表或者是村里長，大家都紛紛表示時至今日村里長的事務補助費以及地方民代助理費用都應該被討論，今天也是破紀錄，我進到立法院從來沒有看過，光提案說明已經提案說明了一個小時，有這麼多個版本，不分朝野大家都提案。結果上個禮拜五發生什麼事，明明吳琪銘召委都已經排好案子，表示今天要審了，但上個禮拜五國民黨傅崐萁召委跟民眾黨黃國昌召委特別把幾案抽出來說他們逕付二讀，戳破民進黨的假面具，我覺得很奇怪，請問是要戳破什麼假面具啊？今天這麼多的國民黨委員，甚至是民眾黨委員，也在這裡提出自己的版本，他們的版本是寫得比較不夠好、不夠清楚嗎？所以沒有被傅崐萁總召、黃國昌總召選中嗎？不然的話，為什麼只有那幾個版本？所以難道是國民黨選進去逕付二讀的版本，代表著國民黨全體的意見嗎？民眾黨選進去的代表民眾黨的意見嗎？好，如果是的話，那顯然民眾黨不支持村里長事務費調高喔！因為民眾黨的版本沒有寫到村里長喔！所以國民黨不支持原住民地區的村里長事務費可以加給喔！它不支持像高金委員這樣的提案說原住民地區事務繁忙可以加給，因為國民黨逕付二讀的版本沒有原住民喔！所以我們今天討論完的版本，如果我們今天因為朝野有高度的共識，希望今天要能夠審理，如果我們今天能夠出去的版本，這個共識版出去以後，上一次他們在禮拜五逕付二讀的版本算不算數？這整個都亂了套了嘛！所以這根本才是真正的其心可議，在民進黨的召委已經排好法案要審查的時候，特別抽出幾個版本做所謂的逕付二讀，既不尊重立法院的委員會中心主義，而且也把自己同黨委員的提案棄如敝屣，我覺得這真的是需要被譴責啦！不然以後立法院不用討論了嘛，大家所有的事情都逕付二讀就好了，那委員會開什麼開？所以今天在這裡我說不吐不快就是這樣，這段談話我希望要能夠列入會議紀錄啦！好，講到這裡，我們還是要請林右昌部長，我還是有幾個問題，雖然等一下我們會有條文審查……"],["主席：請內政部林右昌部長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：逐條可以討論，但今天我還是請一下部長，謝謝。"],["主席：我們巧慧委員要求列入會議紀錄、公報紀錄……"],["蘇委員巧慧：會啦！會啦！等一下一定會逐字啦！譴責啦！"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝部長，部長，您也是擔任過地方首長，非常多的公職，相信您非常理解我們的村里長其實是在協助市政的相關議題上面非常重要的幫手，對吧？"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以部長你也非常努力地、沒有懈怠地提出了院版，但是很可惜啊，因為吳琪銘召委太努力了，這麼提早排，所以院版也好，還有我自己的版本也好，今天都還沒有辦法到院會。不過部長您剛剛報告的院版，院版應該就是行政院的態度，而且已經送出來了，對嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，沒有錯，在上個禮拜行政院院會已經通過，並且已經送過來立法院。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以我想我們今天還是可以把院版的意見，即便它沒有辦法進到委員會來一起併案，但我們還是可以按照院版的基礎也一起來討論。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：里長的部分，說起來我這幾年真的是很替他們辛苦啦！家裡瓦斯沒有關也找里長，狗狗不見了也是找里長，甚至是我遍查了法規，我們的里長其實有救災人員、見證人、公證人、社福人員、自殺防治通報、郵差，甚至森林保護員，統統都跟里長的工作有關係。所以部長你覺得我們今天的事務費5萬元這個基礎是足夠了嗎？為什麼我們這個沒有動，但是我們加了春節慰問金？部長可以再說明清楚一點院方的想法嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，我們在這一次的支給條例的修正，我跟大家報告，其實這個不是現在才開始討論……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["林部長右昌：其實行政院在109年的時候，5月27號曾經也報院討論過這個事情，不過因為還有相關的議題需要進一步凝聚共識，所以那個時候並沒有正式提出來。我上任之後，其實在112年3月份的時候，內政部內部就已經啟動相關方案的研議，最重要的就是剛剛委員特別提到的，我們這次在處理的是薪資，事務補助費的部分是屬於工作事務費的性質……"],["蘇委員巧慧：里長是沒有薪水的。"],["林部長右昌：對，他是沒有薪水的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是反過來，里長也可以去外面兼職，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這就是他跟其他的公務人員根本上的差別嘛！"],["林部長右昌：不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對不對？我覺得這點性質大家一定要釐清楚，後面到底里長應該要哪一些慰問、補助等等，我們一定要搞清楚里長工作的性質，後面才有辦法討論。"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，其實部長你這樣的態度也很清楚，就是我們應該要給他更多的協助、資源的協助，讓他把事情做好，這個部分我也贊同。我也另外贊成，因為我遍查所有的狀況，不管是公教人員也好、其他的也好，確實大部分的公務人員等等、公教人員，他的薪資也好或其他費用也好，確實會隨著物價來做波動，所以我也是支持，如果是村里長的事務補助費，可以隨著物價調升，我認為這是可以支持的部分，我們等一下在逐條的時候，是不是就這部分可以請內政部這邊再提出多一點您的看法？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，我想這部分是可以來討論，不過你也瞭解，其實在地方，村里的問題在於，村里有大有小……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啦！"],["林部長右昌：所以這個5萬塊說實在對大的里真的是不夠用……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["林部長右昌：所以這部分的確是值得來進一步討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以等一下我是希望能夠有嫻熟地方事務的內政部長官們，等一下真的是我們就實際的狀況更多討論。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為今天很多委員要問，我不占用時間，但我表示一件事情，本席也是非常支持地方民代的助理費要有所調整，我覺得尤其我看到這麼多的年輕議員，真的，他們都是政壇的新秀，但是你又要他問政好、服務好，又要他不貪污、政商關係清楚，老實講真的是又要馬兒跑，又要馬兒不吃草，這真的是對他們來講太辛苦了，所以讓他們有足夠的資源，能夠招募到好的團隊，一起為民服務，我想這是大家樂見的，部長也同意吧？"],["林部長右昌：是，贊成。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇巧慧委員的發言，謝謝。","下一位麥玉珍委員，到張宏陸委員質詢完，我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.50284375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.559093750000002,"end":86.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.22409375000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.31346875000001,"end":109.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.34721875000001,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.33221875000001,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.05534375000002,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.14784375000002,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.70471875,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.67409375,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.38284375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.15909375,"end":182.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.31471875000003,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.71096875,"end":187.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.85409375,"end":190.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.80721875,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.89096875,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.17784375000002,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.13971875000001,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.02534375000002,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.12659375,"end":198.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.16034375,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.27846875,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.17284375000003,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.93221875,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.22659375,"end":239.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.58846875,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.76409375000003,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.96659375000002,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.82096875,"end":311.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.30909375000005,"end":299.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.72909375,"end":316.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.62284375,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.89596875,"end":324.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.85784375000003,"end":325.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.89159375,"end":340.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.75471875,"end":336.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.78846875000005,"end":337.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.06221875,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.04909375,"end":343.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.50471875,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.28471875,"end":347.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.31846875,"end":347.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.35221875,"end":347.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.57159375000003,"end":347.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.65596875,"end":347.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.68971875,"end":347.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.87534375,"end":348.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.11159375,"end":360.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.99159375000005,"end":360.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.00409375000004,"end":388.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.13909375000003,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.32471875000005,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.07346875,"end":420.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.91159375,"end":413.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.05034375,"end":416.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.34971875,"end":417.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.48846875000004,"end":468.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.60534375000003,"end":428.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.34159375,"end":469.81409375000004}],"whis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謝謝主席在我開始質詢之前我覺得還是不吐不快啦那主席我其實非常的感謝今天主席排了這個全國都關注的議題因為不管是地方民意代表或者是村里長大家都紛紛的表示時至今日這個村里長的費用然後這個事務補助費以及我們地方民代的助理費用都應該要被討論了"},{"start":33.507,"end":39.711,"text":"那今天呢也是破紀錄啦我從來進到立法院從來沒有看過齁光是提案說明已經提案說明了一個小時有這麼多個版本不分草野大家都提案結果呢上個禮拜五發生什麼事明明吳祁鳴召委就已經把案子都已經排好了表示這個禮拜今天要審了但上個禮拜五"},{"start":57.061,"end":60.685,"text":"國民黨的副坤祺召委跟民眾黨黃國昌召委卻特別把幾案抽出來說他們禁負惡毒 戳破民進黨的假面具我覺得很奇怪請問是要戳破什麼假面具啊那今天這麼多的國民黨委員甚至民眾黨的委員"},{"start":74.56,"end":85.465,"text":"也在這裡提出自己的版本所以他們的版本是比較寫得不夠好不夠清楚嗎所以沒有被傅坤祺總召黃國昌選中嗎不然的話為什麼只有那幾個版本去那我又看了所以難道是國民黨選進去禁覆二讀的版本代表著國民黨全體的意見嗎民眾黨選進去的代表民眾黨的意見嗎那如果是的話"},{"start":102.172,"end":123.355,"text":"顯然民眾黨不支持村里長事務費調高喔因為民眾黨的版本沒有寫到村里長喔那所以國民黨不支持原住民地區的村里長事務費可以加擠喔他不支持像高金委員這樣的提案啊說這個原住民地區事務繁忙可以加擠喔因為國民黨的禁服惡毒的版本沒有原住民喔"},{"start":125.361,"end":140.429,"text":"齁,所以呢,那我們今天討論完的版本,如果我們今天因為草野有高度的共識希望今天要能夠審理,如果我們今天能夠出去的版本,那這個版本共識版出去以後,那上一次他們在禮拜五禁覆二讀的版本算不算數?這整個都亂得透了嘛!"},{"start":143.331,"end":165.477,"text":"所以這根本才是真正的齊心可異在民進黨的召委已經排好法案要審查的時候特別抽出幾個版本說所謂的進夫惡毒既不尊重立法院的委員會中心主義而且也把自己同黨委員的提案棄如必喜我覺得這真的是需要對譴責啦不然以後立法院不用討論了嘛"},{"start":166.457,"end":167.338,"text":"那我們巧慧委員要求列入會議紀錄 報告到紀錄"},{"start":195.497,"end":212.557,"text":"市長,您也是擔任過地方首長這個非常多的公職相信您非常理解我們的村里長其實是在協助這個市政的相關議題上面非常重要的幫手對吧對"},{"start":213.878,"end":239.336,"text":"所以部長您也非常努力的沒有懈怠的提出了院板但是很可惜因為吳啟明教委太努力了這麼提早排所以院板也好還有我自己的版本也好今天都還沒有辦法到院會不過部長您剛剛報告的院板院板應該就是行政院的態度而且已經送出來了對嗎是沒有錯在上個禮拜行政院會已經通過並且已經送過來立法院"},{"start":239.936,"end":255.575,"text":"所以我想我們今天還是可以把院板的這個意見即便他沒有辦法進到委員會來一起併案但我們還是可以按照院板的基礎也一起來討論那這個里長的部分說起來我這幾年真的是很替他們辛苦"},{"start":256.596,"end":257.456,"text":"所以部長你覺得我們今天的事務費5萬元這個基礎"},{"start":281.767,"end":298.574,"text":"是足夠了嗎?那為什麼我們這個沒有動但是我們加了春節慰問金?不然可以再說明清楚一點院方的想法嗎?我們在這一次的這個支給條例的一個修正我跟大家報告其實這個不是現在才開始討論"},{"start":299.774,"end":324.335,"text":"其實行政院在109年的時候曾經5月27日曾經也抱怨討論過這個事情不過因為還有相關的這些議題需要進一步凝聚共識所以那個時候並沒有正式提出來那我上任之後其實在112年的3月份的時候我們其實在內政部內部就已經啟動相關的一個方案的研議"},{"start":325.255,"end":339.951,"text":"最重要的就是剛剛委員特別提到的我們這一次在處理一些薪資那個事務補助費的部分他是屬於工作事務費的一個薪資里長是沒有薪水的對他是沒有薪水的"},{"start":340.231,"end":340.331,"text":" 是的。"},{"start":361.587,"end":385.925,"text":"其實部長你這樣的態度其實也很清楚就是我們應該要給他更多的協助資源的協助讓他把事情做好那這個部分我有贊同不過我也另外贊成因為我偏查所有的狀況不管是公教人員也好其他的也好其實確實大部分的公立人員等等公教人員他的這個薪資也好或其他費用也好是確實會隨著物價來做波動"},{"start":388.487,"end":417.015,"text":"所以我其實也是支持如果是村里長的事務補助費可以隨著物價調升我認為這是可以支持的部分那我們等一下在逐條的時候是不是就這部分可以請院內政部這邊再提出多一點您的看法各位報告我想這部分是可以來討論不過你也了解其實在地方村里的問題在這樣他村里有大有小是啦所以這個五萬塊說實在是對的大的理真的是不夠用"},{"start":417.455,"end":437.133,"text":"所以這部分的確是值得來進一步討論所以我等一下我是希望能夠有閒熟地方事務的內政部的長官們等一下真的是我們就實際的狀況更多討論好那因為今天大家很多委員要問我不再用時間但我表示一件事情本席也是非常支持地方民代的議員"},{"start":438.154,"end":438.254,"text":"是 贊成"},{"start":468.124,"end":468.144,"text":"好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7186552aa267d2f761f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac782ede71b137622785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:24:24 - 10:35:33","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":669,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:35:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:24:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時24分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。我們4月17日一起去屏東，我們是要去追雞蛋去化的公開透明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不過那天看起來去的委員都生氣了，包括脾氣很好的楊瓊瓔委員都動怒、發火了，他剛剛又問，也動怒了。老實講，本席辦公室很多民眾打電話進來是在抗議的，我們現在就事論事，那天最後有做3點決定，對不對？雞蛋去化的影帶要完整公開，4月30號以前要在農業部的官網公開，你們有完整公開了嗎？你們是把我們委員會的決議當成是空氣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：當初在委員會也跟委員說明了，我們的錄影帶本身是每一天、每一天的……"],["張委員啓楷：那個是量大啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：那個直接進到……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說，我去農業部的官網上面看，你上傳了3部影片嘛，對不對？這3部其實就是我們那天去屏東看到的，那這個沒有違反我們那一天經濟委員會做的決議嗎？決議裡面有2個點很重要，第一個叫完整、第二個叫做公開透明，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你這3個有完整嗎？有公開透明嗎？你回給本席還說那個檔案太大，現在是資訊化的時代，有檔案太大的問題嗎？6.7TB，你上YT，整理完很快就可以上去啦，這沒有容量的限制啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當我們進到全部的官網，我們所有的影片絕對可以公告，我剛剛說過了，我們公開的部分是讓外界知道，我們過期雞蛋的報廢過程都有第三方監督整個流程，它只是一個流程的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，所以……"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果需要的話可以來索取，我們就會給他。"],["張委員啓楷：現在有幾個問題，第一個，這是本委員會我們一起去屏東當場發的白紙黑字嘛，對不對？你也在現場，裡面就是完整公開啊，怎麼會只有3部呢？這是第一個，對不對？第二個，現在是數位化時代、資訊化時代，你怎麼講說檔案太大呢？你們不是有很多資訊人員嗎？你有資訊司，對不對？你隨便去問你們資訊司的人員，這個要上去有什麼難的？太簡單了！現在最重要的就是，你答應的時候，每天就應該要整理、上傳了嘛！第一個，你沒有做這個動作。","所以本席今天非常明確的要求，這個是我們委員會做的決議，你要落實：第一個，每部去化影片完整上傳到你們農業部的官網，在YT上面；第二個，名稱應該有個範例嘛，這個很容易整理，你只要分類，有日期、從哪個倉儲出去了、去哪個去化廠、數量，你照這樣很簡單，整個就上去啦，讓人民去檢視嘛！","部長，你為什麼從代理部長變成真除？你的民調是不錯的喔，為什麼有些部長被換掉，因為民調很不好嘛。我跟你講，你現在要面對民眾，民眾有那麼多憤怒、那麼多的生氣，可是你還可以真除當部長，因為這個是以前陳吉仲幹的事啊，所以就下臺啦，你不要引火焚身喔，你要面對民眾去解決問題嘛！","而且這個是本委會的要求，做這兩點好不好？完整上去；第二個，你的檔案用範例、日期、倉儲、去化廠跟數量，很快就可以上去啦，讓人民去檢視，要不然民眾怎麼知道真相？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當初沒有辦法全部上去，我們也詢問過相關的資訊部分，因為上去本身是一件事情，外界收看時的下載流量部分是一個……不是我上傳、掛上去就結束了，如果你要其他的日期我們可以提供。如果委員覺得我們這個不對……"],["張委員啓楷：舉例啦，雙軌，你提供給本席啦；第二個更重要的，你們趕快做這件事啦，讓全民去檢視，我現在跟你講……"],["陳代理部長駿季：OK，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：你如果不做這個動作……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得可以。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果全部的檔案提供給……我們用整個檔案的部分提供給委員，也容委員能夠同意我們再跟資訊司……因為我們怕整個網站掛掉，掛上去是一件事情，但後面流量會引起……"],["張委員啓楷：不會掛掉就要做這件事喔，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK。"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我把個別所有的東西……"],["張委員啓楷：你們資訊這麼進步、現在是數位時代，這樣一個6.7TB的上去就掛掉，農業部沒這麼脆弱！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，上去絕對沒問題，就是後面流量的控管。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，去克服這個問題，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我把所有完整的影片給你。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我要跟你講一個重點，第一個，這是我們委員會的決議，要公開完整的決議。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你們要取信於全民，民調會不會掉下來就看這個了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：來看一下，你的雞蛋有些不見了。過期蛋到底幾顆？是5,580萬顆，還是銷毀了5,772萬顆……"],["陳代理部長駿季：分兩個部分報告：5,580萬顆是那時候截止，包括專案報廢處理的5,580萬顆；至於5,772萬顆是在時間截止點前還有一百多萬顆，所以是陸續銷毀的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以到底是……這兩個數字差了192萬顆，到底哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我分兩個部分解釋：5,580萬顆是專案報廢招標，包括招標做堆肥、做去化，這是一件事；在這個之前，我們已經陸續處理報廢雞蛋大概一百多萬顆，所以加起來是5,772萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：所以正確的數目就是5,772萬顆，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：消失的190萬顆要交代清楚啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這190萬顆其實在我們的官網一直都有出現，我強調的是5,580萬顆是我們專案處理的部分，包括招標的四千多萬顆的部分。因為委員那時候一直強調，這個四千多萬本身其實是5,580萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在明確的數目是銷毀5,772萬顆，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，5,580萬顆加190萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：如果這樣的話，後面錢的事情就不對了！你用的是前面，你們真的是一日三價。部長，從陳吉仲到你，銷毀的雞蛋到底要多少錢？一日三價！這是全民買單喔，所以你們到底買了多少錢？銷毀用了多少錢？能不能給我一口價，而且是很清楚的價格？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所得到……"],["張委員啓楷：不然每天每次問的答案都不一樣！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所得到的資訊就是，農業部在112年補助畜產會8.2億，因為是年度結帳的，而今年度畜產會尚未對我們提出計畫申請，而且雞蛋本身……"],["張委員啓楷：我幫你整理一下。你看我的表格，今天全國民眾要知道的，就是為了去化，因為買的雞蛋過期，為了去化，這銷毀過程花了多少錢？4億7,509萬，對不對？這是明確的，對不對？一口價，這個很明確、不會再變了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：右邊的數字明確……"],["張委員啓楷：這是今天第一次出現。我們追了快一年了，這是有史以來最明確的數目。另外再加上前面的，你說買了多少蛋？8.2億嗎？加起來應該13億……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有！8.2億是涵蓋了去化的4.7億，這不是相加的。"],["張委員啓楷：這是個錯誤政策！後面去化花了4億7,509萬，若再加上買蛋的錢，全部是多少？再加上去是多少？你說不是13億？是多少？10億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們補助的是8.2億。"],["張委員啓楷：不能直接加上4.7億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，是涵蓋在4.7億裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：所以花了多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：Totally大概10億。"],["張委員啓楷：10億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：請向全國民眾講，這個錯誤的政策一共花了人民10億的納稅錢！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我不認同這是錯誤的政策……"],["張委員啓楷：這是個烏龍……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有！這不是政策錯誤……"],["張委員啓楷：連部長、中央畜產會的主委都下臺走人了，還不是錯誤政策？這裡面搞不好還有貪污問題，超思幫你們賺了多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果委員認為有貪污問題，我想盡可能可以請檢調單位來調查，我覺得可以。但這不是一個錯誤的政策！"],["張委員啓楷：這對全民來講很重要！去化花了4億7,509萬，整體加起來超過10億，這是一個錯誤的政策！","最後，這是本席及其他委員的要求，2022年中央畜產會從日本專案進口雞蛋3,081萬顆，採購金額2億2,502萬，對此，我們已經索資索了兩個半月了，為什麼都不給？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明……"],["張委員啓楷：我先明確要求。本席要求2022年從日本專案進口雞蛋的採購廠商名稱、採購數額、採購合約，還有為何迴避國會監督？已經兩個半月了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜內把報告送到本席辦公室。"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，合約部分不是農業部訂的，是畜產會與跟第三方訂的。我也請畜產會……因為合約的公開要雙方都同意，所以我們請畜產會去問丙方；丙方認為是營業秘密，所以我們沒辦法公開。因為不是農業部簽約的，是乙、丙方。乙、丙方有一方不同意公開的話，我們就沒辦法公開。"],["張委員啓楷：中央畜產會都是用我們的錢訂的，現在立法委員要求公開，結果你拿不出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：畜產會是一個法人……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候所有民間廠商都說我不公開，我們就沒辦法監督了？是這樣嗎？剛剛黃國昌已經打臉你了，也跟你講公開怎麼是由民間企業作主？"],["主席：時間到！部長，私下再跟張委員回復。"],["張委員啓楷：主席，你可以裁決，他資料要給我啊！"],["主席：我現在要裁決，你要讓我講話！時間到，請部長私下再來跟張委員報告，好不好？您的時間已經到了，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：這是很清楚的，本席要的東西合法合理……"],["主席：主席就這樣裁決了，好不好？大家都是合法合理，請回。","請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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否定從成起這種告例要銷毀的錢要多少錢一日三價你今天這是全民買單喔把數目字你到底買了多少錢銷毀用了多少錢能不能給我一口價很清楚的價格"},{"start":447.776,"end":466.924,"text":"我所得到的資訊就是我們農業部在112年本身我們補助的續展會是8.2億嘛對不對然後今年度因為他是年度結帳的那今年度續展會並沒有還沒有來跟我們去做相關的計畫的一些申請"},{"start":467.944,"end":469.065,"text":"而且這些雞蛋本身"},{"start":486.599,"end":488.38,"text":"八點二億是涵蓋的去化的四點七億不是相加的"},{"start":508.148,"end":509.989,"text":"二、審查本院委員．張啓楷二、審查本院委員．張啓楷二、審查本院委員．張啓楷"},{"start":528.054,"end":553.926,"text":"張啓楷跟全國觀眾講這個政策錯誤的政策一共花了人民的納稅錢我想這個不是我不認同這是錯誤的政策沒有這不是錯誤的政策連部長中央市長會的職位都下台走不是一個錯誤的問題這裡面搞不好還有貪污的問題超市到底算了多少錢我講如果委員認為有貪污問題我想盡可能可以從檢調單位來調查我覺得都可以但是它不是一個錯誤的政策"},{"start":554.406,"end":556.688,"text":"我本席跟我們的委員一直要求2022年中央續產會從日本專案進口雞蛋3081萬顆採購金額2億2502萬我們已經跟你手之手了兩個半夜了"},{"start":581.723,"end":605.391,"text":"我跟委員說明齁等下我先明確要求本席要求上開這個2020年日本專案進口雞蛋的採購廠商的名稱採購的數額採購的合約還有為何迴避國會監督已經兩個半列了包括一個禮拜內送到本席我跟委員說明齁合約的部分因為不是農業部訂的是續長會跟第三方訂的那我也請續長會因為合約的公開"},{"start":607.432,"end":634.849,"text":"要雙方都同意的時候我們也請市長會去問秉芳秉芳認為他是營業秘密所以我們沒辦法公開因為不是農業部簽約的是乙秉芳那乙秉芳有一方他不同意公開的話我們沒辦法公開總統市長會自己都是用我們的情緣來那個那我們現在立法院要求要公開你現在發不出來市長會本身是一個法人所有的廠商民間廠商都說話不會公開我們都沒辦法監督嗎"},{"start":636.147,"end":636.788,"text":"來,那個時間大了。"},{"start":643.611,"end":667.538,"text":"來時間到來來那個部長你私下再跟張委員回覆好不好我主席現在裁決嘛你就讓我講話嘛時間到我請部長私下再來跟張委員報告好不好那您的時間已經到了好不好很清楚的本席要的東西合法合理我主席就這樣裁決了嘛好不好大家都是合法合理來請回我們現在因為好啦等一下等一下"}]}},{"id":"152306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71cc4fa156599bb3f65e31cafebf20a13d36499d1b681a2ac7a09a8290299f163d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:28:31 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- 10:27:58","影片長度":"00:07:43","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等89案。（詳如附件1、6）二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案。（詳如附件2）三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案。（詳如附件3）四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案。（詳如附件4）五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等 14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":463,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:27:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:20:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":300,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時20分）謝謝主席，麻煩請外交部田次長。"],["主席：田次長請。"],["田次長中光：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：次長早。就我們外交部的相關業務，其實有很多不管是在邦交國、非邦交國，我們對於國際的援助各方面其實都著墨很多，近期有一個比較沸沸揚揚的就是外交部氣急敗壞的去告了立法委員。我想請教一下，我們跟捷克共和國簽署的有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係，我們列為密件，對不對？"],["田次長中光：是的。"],["馬委員文君：捷克方面他們是怎麼看待這件事情？"],["田次長中光：捷克這方面，他們因為跟烏克蘭地緣上非常相近，也都是民主國家的陣營，發生了這個事情，臺灣當然可以說是第一個國家出來協助烏克蘭，這一點要特別利用這個機會謝謝國人同胞在第一時間聚集了七百多萬的物資，還有五千多萬的資金去協助難民，這個舉動把臺灣又跟世界民主聯盟緊密的結合在一起。當然，因為這個戰爭在2022年2月24號開始以後，到目前……"],["馬委員文君：次長，我要問的是我們跟捷克……因為協助烏克蘭的難民，或者協助他們更多的醫療量能，那個部分我相信國人還有我們立法院沒有反對，所以在預算審查的時候，這部分沒有受到太多的影響。"],["田次長中光：謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：可是我們既然付出這樣的資金或者經費、預算援助，我想要請教我們列為密件，也就是我剛剛提到我們援助烏克蘭的這個部分，那捷克方面是怎麼看待跟我們簽署的這一份文件資料？外交部有掌握嗎？"],["田次長中光：有掌握，這是……"],["馬委員文君：捷克怎麼說、怎麼看？他們也列為非常機密嗎？"],["田次長中光：每個國家要怎麼做，他有制度去遵循，在我們國家……"],["馬委員文君：次長，我們看一下捷克外交部的文刊──在現代經濟外交雜誌，這也是官媒，在3月26號的時候有揭露、發布1,000萬美元分三年期的部分，它在3月26號公開揭露。收錢的國家都已經公開了，可是我們是給錢的國家，把它列為機密，而且因為這樣去提告。我想要請教一下，我們現在就不要用我們國內的機密資料好了，我們就用捷克的公開資料，它上面有提到我框起來的這一部分：還有其他的貨物由臺灣政府資助……，其中支持的條件是30%的供貨量來自臺灣企業。這是在他們的文刊、官媒上特別提出來的，我想要請教一下，為什麼有30%？1,000萬美金算起來也有相當的金額，為什麼不是由我們直接採購？我們把錢給外國，再由外國跟臺灣採購，這樣是不是有什麼考量？是捷克要求的還是我們臺灣方面要求的？"],["田次長中光：我先跟委員再次報告一下……"],["馬委員文君：30%！回答問題就好，時間的關係，回答我的問題就好，次長。"],["田次長中光：因為捷克沒有中共在對付他，臺灣的情況就是跟人家不一樣。"],["馬委員文君：次長，聽好我的問題！今天捷克已經公開說我們付了這樣的錢，在3月26號就已經公開，中共看不到他們的相關文宣、公開的資料嗎？你怕中共什麼？"],["田次長中光：中共沒有要……"],["馬委員文君：你今天做對的事情，你怕中共什麼？今天中共會影響我們什麼？它已經提出來我們捐出去的錢裡面有30%要買臺灣企業的醫療用品，這一點你怎麼看？這是我們臺灣要求的還是捷克要求的？回答我這個問題就好。"],["田次長中光：臺灣的醫療在國際間是非常有名的，不但是捷克……"],["馬委員文君：誰要求的、誰要求的？次長回答我的問題，誰要求這30%的預算要買臺灣的醫療用品、臺灣企業生產的，誰要求的？是捷克方面還是臺灣方面？回答這個問題就好。"],["田次長中光：我請司長回答。"],["黃司長鈞耀：這個所協助的區域是戰亂……"],["馬委員文君：回答我！捷克公開的資訊裡面有30%要跟臺灣的企業買，這是捷克要求的還是……"],["黃司長鈞耀：這是我方要求的。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼這樣要求？"],["黃司長鈞耀：因為當地是受到戰亂影響最大的區域。"],["馬委員文君：捷克……"],["黃司長鈞耀：是非常……"],["馬委員文君：那你為什麼把錢……"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，受援……"],["馬委員文君：你就在這裡買了再直接送給他就好了啊！"],["黃司長鈞耀：受援區是烏東戰亂、受到戰爭影響最大的地區，是非常危險的。"],["馬委員文君：你是交給誰？我們的副總統當選人當時是去哪裡？捷克有受到這樣的影響……"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，我講的是……"],["馬委員文君：我說的，聽清楚！"],["黃司長鈞耀：受到協助的烏東地區是最危險的地區，因此我們基於跟捷克政府的信任，捷克政府願意冒這個險，他們願意派人到烏東地區的醫院去實際觀察，所以……"],["馬委員文君：回答我的問題！這30%要跟臺灣的企業買，是捷克要求的還是我們臺灣要求的？"],["黃司長鈞耀：是我方要求，因為我們希望他們幫我們去戰亂的地區看看當地實際需要什麼，然後看他們需要什麼之後，基於政府之間的信任，我們希望捷克政府依據當地的需求進行採購。"],["馬委員文君：我想請教一下，既然是跟臺灣採購，你就直接自己採購送過去就好了啊！幹嘛要把錢給人家？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這些是救人、救命的東西，他們的時間……"],["馬委員文君：我知道是救人的，這不用你說！聽完我的話！"],["黃司長鈞耀：是。"],["馬委員文君：今天你說他們要幫我們送，如果是臺灣的物資，他只要列出清單，我們買了以後還是可以給他們。你是多此一舉，你把錢給人家，人家再把錢付給我們，然後跟我們臺灣的企業買，這是臺灣要求的！我今天先問這樣的問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：今天在外國的公開資訊上面，中共會打壓，難道他看了捷克的公開資訊就不會打壓嗎？今天如果要去救援、救難、協助難民，中共還敢打壓，我們嚴厲譴責。但如果你花納稅人的錢還可以耀武揚威地告立法委員，這是外交部非常可恥的一個問題。今天我們就這個部分，外國都公開了，收錢的國家都公開了，你在隱匿什麼？"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員，時間到了。"],["馬委員文君：這部分我們還是希望接下來可以要求，為什麼我們要這樣在MOU上面要求30%買臺灣企業的醫療用品，而且是這樣反覆的程序？外交部要給個說法，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。就這個案子，我們可以排秘密審查，大家好好來問，至於本國是否維持密級文件跟他國其實是兩件不一樣的事情。沒關係！各位請回，待會讓其他委員來詢答。","接下來進行詢答的委員是洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等 89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.13221875,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":38.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.10471875,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.21846875,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.407843750000005,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.187843750000006,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.66784375,"end":63.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.430343750000006,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.81159375,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.06471875000001,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.12159375,"end":127.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.34846875,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.78284375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.63909375,"end":135.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.27596875,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.84096875,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.18596875,"end":144.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.83534375000002,"end":184.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.59284375000001,"end":200.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.67471875,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.13471875000002,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.34471875000003,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.29346875000002,"end":240.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.38596875000002,"end":241.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.91721875000002,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.07971875,"end":256.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.52659375,"end":257.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.93284375,"end":282.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.30784375,"end":288.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.01534375,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.91284375000004,"end":298.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.26221875000005,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.18159375000005,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.55159375,"end":316.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.51721875000004,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.36471875,"end":327.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.68534375,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.77784375000005,"end":325.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.93346875000003,"end":333.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.22784375000003,"end":334.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.08409375,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.44221875,"end":343.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.33659375,"end":346.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.04846875000004,"end":351.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.58784375000005,"end":356.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.14846875,"end":356.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.65034375000005,"end":365.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.68409375000005,"end":357.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.76721875000004,"end":375.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.99909375000004,"end":366.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.36471875,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.53721875,"end":462.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.08034375,"end":392.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.55596875000003,"end":393.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.62034375,"end":413.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.87284375,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.17659375000005,"end":446.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.20159375000003,"end":448.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.64221875000004,"end":463.46909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.169,"end":8.751,"text":"主席麻煩請外交部田次長來田次長請國務院長"},{"start":9.577,"end":37.778,"text":"市長早就我們外交部的相關業務其實有很多不管是在邦交國、非邦交國我們對於國際的援助各方面其實我們都琢磨很多那近期其實有一個比較沸沸揚揚的就是外交部氣急敗壞的去告了立法委員我想要請教一下我們跟捷克共和國簽署的有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量"},{"start":38.779,"end":62.595,"text":"夥伴關係,我們列為密件,對不對?是的。捷克方面他們是怎麼看待這件事情?捷克這方面他們因為跟﹐烏克蘭地緣上非常相近,那也都是民主國家的陣營。發生了這個事情呢,那麼臺灣當然是第一個國家可以說,出來協助烏克蘭。"},{"start":63.696,"end":83.208,"text":"這一點要特別利用這機會謝謝國人同胞在第一時間聚集了700多萬的物資還有5000多萬的資金那麼去協助難民這個舉動把臺灣又跟世界民主聯盟又緊密的結合在一起當然這個因為這個戰爭在2022年2月24號開始以後"},{"start":88.351,"end":92.493,"text":"我要問的是我們跟捷克因為協助烏克蘭的難民或者協助他們更多的醫療的量能那個部分我相信國人還有我們立法院沒有反對所以在預算審查的時候這個部分是沒有受到太多的影響"},{"start":108.141,"end":134.969,"text":"可是我們既然付出了這樣子的資金﹐或者我們的經費預算的援助﹐我想要請教我們列為密件﹐剛剛我提到的﹐就是我們援助烏克蘭的這個部分﹐那捷克方面﹐他們是怎麼看待跟我們簽署的這一份文件資料﹐外交部有掌握嗎﹐有掌握﹐捷克怎麼說怎麼看﹐他們也列為非常機密嗎﹐"},{"start":135.922,"end":153.416,"text":"每個國家他要怎麼做那他國家有他的制度去遵循那在我們國家呢那次長我們看一下捷克外交部的文刊在他的現代經濟外交雜誌這也是官媒在3月26號的時候有揭露"},{"start":155.898,"end":160.26,"text":"發布這一千萬美元這分三年期的部分．他是公開揭露在3月26號．收錢的國家他都已經公開了．可是我們給錢的國家我們把它列為機密．而且因為這樣去提告．我想要請教一下我們現在就不要用我們國內的．機密資料好了我們就用捷克的公開資料．他上面有提到"},{"start":181.824,"end":194.813,"text":"還有我框起來的這一部分還有其他的貨物由臺灣政府支柱點點點然後其中支持的條件是30%的供貨量來自臺灣企業這是在他們的"},{"start":200.737,"end":202.558,"text":"2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":227.214,"end":229.937,"text":"我先回答問題就好時間的關係回答我的問題就好因為捷克沒有中共在對付他臺灣的情況就是跟人家不一樣"},{"start":241.991,"end":245.914,"text":"今天捷克已經公開說我們付了這樣的錢他在3月26號就已經公開中共看不到他們的相關的文宣公開的資料嗎?你怕中共什麼?你今天做對的事情你怕中共什麼?今天中共他會影響我們什麼?"},{"start":260.763,"end":266.307,"text":"今天他已經提出來30%是要買是我們捐出去的錢裡面30%要買臺灣的企業的醫療用品這一點你怎麼看這是我們臺灣要求的還是捷克要求的回答我這個問題就好臺灣的醫療在國際間是非常有名的誰要求的誰要求的次長回答我的問題誰要求這30%的預算要買臺灣的"},{"start":289.085,"end":293.648,"text":"醫療用品臺灣產的臺灣企業的誰要求的是捷克方面還是臺灣方面回答這個問題就好我請師長回答這個所協助的區域他是站在回答我這裡面捷克公開的資訊裡面這30%要跟臺灣的企業買這是捷克要求的這是我方要求的為什麼這樣要求"},{"start":317.566,"end":329.056,"text":"因為當地是受到戰亂影響最大的區域捷克那你為什麼把錢交給他那你就在這裡買了再直接送給他就好了校園區是烏東戰亂受到戰爭影響最大的地區是非常危險你是交給誰"},{"start":335.154,"end":350.532,"text":"我們的副總統當選人他當時是去哪裡?傑克是有受到這樣的影響?我講的是受到協助的巫東地區是最危險的地區因此我們基於跟傑克政府的信任傑克他們政府願意冒這個險"},{"start":351.693,"end":374.678,"text":"他們願意派人到烏東地區去醫院實際上觀察回答我的問題回答我的問題這30%要跟台灣的企業買是捷克要求的還是我們台灣要求是我方要求因為我們希望他們幫我們去戰亂的地區去看看當地實際上需要什麼然後他們看了需要什麼之後呢"},{"start":375.698,"end":381.203,"text":"我們基於政府之間的信任所以我們希望結構政府依據當地的需求去進行採購那你既然是跟台灣採購你就直接自己台灣採購送過去就好了阿幹嘛要把錢給人家我知道是救人的這個不用你說聽完我的話聽完我的話"},{"start":393.895,"end":396.778,"text":"今天你說他們要幫我們送如果是台灣的物資台灣有什麼樣他只要列出清單我們買了以後還是可以給他們這個你是多此一舉你把錢給了人家人家再把錢付給我們然後跟我們台灣的企業買這是台灣要求我現在先問今天先問這樣的問題今天在公"},{"start":414.953,"end":418.334,"text":"外國公開的資訊上面．今天中共會打壓．難道他看了捷克的公開資訊．他不會打壓嗎．今天如果要去救援救難．要協助難民．中共還敢打壓．我們嚴厲譴責．今天如果你花了納稅人的錢．還可以耀武揚威的告立法委員．這是外交部非常可恥的一個問題．今天如果說我們就這個部分．對外國都公開了．收錢的國家都公開了．你在隱秘什麼．"},{"start":445.024,"end":451.608,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望接下來可以要求為什麼我們要這樣子在MOU上面要求我們要30%買台灣企業的醫療用品而是這樣子反覆的這樣的程序外交部要給個說法謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152304","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71a8ee244109418ff26811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac72b84f17dd0fda0a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:13:59 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10:27:38","影片長度":"00:13:39","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":819,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:27:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:13:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時14分）謝謝主席，請院長。"],["主席：好，有請院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：陳委員早。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長早安。今天其實每一位委員都很關心翠玉白菜的安危，也覺得故宮在保存文物這一塊不夠謹慎，剛才院長您都已經答詢了。這邊本席想要再請教院長的是，目前我們針對文物的保存，是不是有制定相關的遵循事項？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，其實我們有很多相關的規則。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們是不是應該都會滾動檢討，會不定期的拿出來檢視？"],["蕭院長宗煌：從我去年就任以後，我就要求同仁盤點所有的法規、命令及作業規則，所以已經盤點了一大堆，在下半年我們會出版法規彙編跟作業手冊。"],["陳委員秀寳：是因為還不夠詳細嗎？還是還不夠嚴謹嗎？為什麼會出這樣子的事情呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為相關的作業要點或是作業須知、作業準則，就是要點很多，所以它沒有一個……為什麼我說要出版手冊呢？手冊就是要把它統統集結在一起。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長，其實剛才您有答詢過，我知道你有答詢過了，我這邊要要求的就是，你們經過這次的事件之後，把所有的這些SOP全部再檢討過，好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望你們用更嚴謹的態度去對待我們的文物，不能用這麼鬆散的心態來辦理相關事宜。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，故宮絕對是嚴謹的，但的確是有疏失，這個我們承認。"],["陳委員秀寳：一定要檢討。接下來，今天早上有多位委員都非常關心蕭院長有沒有被徵詢是否會繼續擔任我們故宮的院長，對於未來故宮會由誰繼續帶領，大家都非常地關心，但是本席在這邊的重點是有一個說法讓本席覺得非常地遺憾，就是在新任院長人選還沒有公布之前，有人就用性別當作議題來聲稱如果新任的院長是女性，那國寶就不再是國寶。院長，你覺得這樣的說法恰當嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：國寶永遠是國寶，國寶有兩種，一種是文資局審定的國寶或重要國物；一種是民眾認知的，也就是故宮的人氣國寶，像翠玉白菜。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長，國寶的定義跟新任院長的性別毫無關係……"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有關係。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以本席覺得非常地遺憾，竟然有這樣的言論，明年故宮就要迎來百年的院慶，會面臨很多的挑戰，以及我們也有無限的可能，性別不是適任的標準，專業才是。","院長，針對目前很熱烈討論的現代藝術跟博物館等建築結合的議題，最近史博館的玻璃盒跟故宮的玻璃亭被熱烈的討論並對比。院長，您過去曾擔任文化部次長，如果用文化跟博物館學的角度來看，針對現代建築美學跟博物館建築的新舊風格如何融合，您有什麼看法？"],["蕭院長宗煌：古蹟跟新的建築融合，其實在全世界的範例，並不是沒有這樣的一個範例，但是以故宮的案例，它在2022年招標，有4家廠商投標，1家得標，得標廠商就是造一個玻璃入口，它因為這樣而得標，得標後第一次送臺北市文資局審議，沒有審過，可是我上任之後，我不能剝奪它的修正權，所以基本上我要求它根據社會的意見以及臺北市文資局的意見去做修正，所以它把量體縮小、斜屋頂縮小，但是在我們跟民眾一個公開閱覽的過程裡面，還是有很多的意見，這個部分我們也把所有的媒體報導跟民眾的意見統統再彙整給建築師團隊，請他們去做因應。基本上來講，如果它修訂之後再送臺北市文資局審議有不通過的情況的話，我們就會要求它變更設計。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝院長，您有說會彙整相關的意見，其實當初採用玻璃的想法，可能因為覺得它是透明的，對於建築物的遮蔽可能就是比較不會讓民眾覺得很違和。但是如果以史博館的這個例子，因為史博館的玻璃盒真的讓民眾感覺太突兀，但如果你們要參考羅浮宮、大英博物館都有使用玻璃建築這樣子的作法，其實本席在這邊不討論故宮的玻璃亭是不是要興建，這個興建與否不是我關注的焦點，而是在仿古跟現代的爭執中，所謂的去中化就真的想太多、想得太複雜，單純的建築美學與文化的結合，不要滲入太多的政治色彩，也希望在文資法規允許的範圍之內，故宮可以去廣納民間的意見，就像剛剛院長您講的，你們會彙整所有的意見來給建築師參考，對民眾來說，其實能有舒適的空間、順眼不違和的美感才是他們對博物館的期待。","接下來再跟院長來討論，就是故宮跟北榮在昨天有簽署合作備忘錄，宣布今牌人生認知牌卡正式發行，這一份裡面會有60張牌卡還有一個手冊，上面的圖卡其實都是故宮的經典文物，十分細緻，也讓民眾可以藉這個機會來接觸到故宮很珍貴的文物，透過這個圖卡上面的文物引導失智症患者來對話，也促進他們認知能力的訓練，在醫學期刊上，甚至北榮神經醫學中心的副主任對這個圖卡的作用也非常認可，認為這個是真的可以幫助到失智症患者。我非常肯定故宮在推廣樂齡教育這個服務很用心，也希望故宮能持續地來推廣。在這邊請教院長，你們跟北榮簽署合備忘錄之後，有沒有預計如何來推廣這麼好的今牌人生認知牌卡？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有關於3年的合作備忘錄，第一個，我們在持續推動這個牌卡之外，還希望有更進階的，譬如說我們可以利用數位科技讓這個牌卡進入到AR、VR的情況，另外就是未來是不是可以用AI來提升認知，我想這3年的時間我們可以去做研議。"],["陳委員秀寳：比如說，跟衛福部的醫療院所或是教育部的樂齡中心來合作，這個你們有沒有考慮？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們不排除跟所有的醫療院所合作，因為那天我們也跟榮總講，就是說我們儘量、儘量，譬如說我在臺灣博物館的時候就跟臺北聯合醫學中心合作，然後有所謂的社會處方箋，去看醫生，醫生開一個處方說你要去看博物館，類似這樣的情況，我們未來會有更多元的合作。"],["陳委員秀寳：像剛才我這邊問您的時候提到教育部的樂齡中心，我希望你們可以積極、主動的去推廣，因為他們不見得知道……"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，我們會跟教育部樂齡中心及衛福部來聯絡。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為他們不見得知道有這麼好的一個牌卡可以使用，希望後續你們要持續的推展，有這麼好的作品、產品，不要讓它曇花一現，要讓更多的民眾可以使用，也讓故宮的文物可以走入生活中。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，我們現在北院做的是60件的故宮藏品，我要求故宮南院是以織品為中心，然後把臺灣民俗的八仙綵、102215紅雞肚的那些織品，包括繡花鞋，還有原住民的這些織品都進來……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以說這個牌卡是第一套，還會有第二套、第三套？以後都還會有？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，南院的話，我會要求南院做這個部分。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝院長的用心。我再跟主席借一點時間，剛才也有很多位委員問過了，有關於故宮的文物保存修護人員，故宮有超過70萬件的文物，但是我們目前的文物修護人員只有16位，編制內的技術人員有即將退休的，因為員額的關係，你們還遇缺不補，所以代表之後的文物修護人員可能會只剩下13位。依照博物館法的規定，得依預算法設置作業基金，作業基金的用途包括編制外人員人事支出，以自籌收入百分之三十為限。目前我們有4位是透過基金來聘請的，本席記得去年在審查預算的時候，本來你們故宮的文物藝術發展基金編列的業務收入是3億5,885萬，本席有提案增列，所以變成是3億6,885萬，如果依法在百分之三十之內可以作為人事支出的話，故宮應該有很大的空間可以聘請修護人員，請問故宮有沒有這樣的規劃來增加人力？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們希望今年開始故宮的人力慢慢回流，因為門票收入是故宮收入的一個很重要的部分，這樣我們基金有盈餘的話，就可以聘請更多的人員。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以院長有這樣的規劃，就是以這樣的基金來支應擴編人力的部分？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，當然我們會重新盤點所有的人力，因為剛剛委員資料上面也提到，我們的技工退休後就是遇缺不補，所以現在第一個，我們就是控管院長的司機，院長的司機就是退休不補，然後把那個缺留給比較必要的，接下來的話就控管副院長的司機，也就是說，這個部分我們會整體盤整人力，然後做更有效的運用，讓修護的人力可以增補。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝院長、副院長的用心。我這邊再提一下，故宮也有修護實習生，是協助修護人員在進行比較非核心的修護工作、協助工作，這幾年故宮每年錄取大概10到15名的修護實習生，但因為修護空間的搬遷時程不確定，我們現在只收4位，有2位是外籍、2位是本國籍，你們跟教育部青發署洽談的是114年會分到5名喔，請問這5名是額外的名額還是在這10到15名之內？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講是這樣，因為今年我們在整修空間，整修空間就沒有多餘的能量去收納實習生，要不然我們歷年都增長到最高有14位，所以我們希望等到新故宮計畫北院這邊處理好了以後，我們可以5位是外加的，如果以之前最高14位再加5位的話，我們希望實習生可以到20位，可是這會牽涉到一個問題，就是說，南藝大的古物維護研究所到底有沒有那麼多研究生，不可能把所有研究生通通抓來我們這邊實習，所以……"],["陳委員秀寳：儘量搶啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們會努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：這邊請教院長，在故宮實習過的實習生，截至目前為止有83位，我相信他們在故宮實習的寶貴經驗，對我們臺灣培育文物修護人才是有很大的助益，如果這些畢業生以後來故宮這邊應聘、應徵的話，你們會不會優先錄用？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，故宮修復部門的洪科長就是在故宮實習的，其實我們裡面起碼有三、四位是在故宮實習後到故宮任職的。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為他們有這樣的經驗，也有這樣的默契，所以你們會優先來錄用。院長，有沒有考慮在暑期提供短期的工讀計畫來緩解修護人力的不足？就是這些實習生可以來做短期的支援？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為暑期的話就是實習，實習的話，基本上來講，進入到庫房要經過一個專業的基礎訓練，不是任何人都可以進庫房，因為基本上來講也不是很簡單的一個勤前教育就可以進入，所以工讀生的部分只能做周邊的工作，他不可能進入到修復室裡面。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝院長，我相信我們民眾對故宮的期待，除了你們在保存文物的這個最大工作之外，對於修護文物人才的培育，我相信民眾也非常的關心，就是我們這樣人才會不會斷層？我們是不是持續有人才、人力可以接應上？所以也希望故宮對於文物修護人員的培訓能夠多加規劃。以上，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：修復是故宮重中之重，我們會特別注意。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，院長請回。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.750343750000003,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.555343750000002,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.63534375,"end":40.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":45.087218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.85096875,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.71534375,"end":66.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.59909375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.45471875,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.06096875,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.08596875,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.02659375,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.19096875000001,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.79659375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.96534375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.60159375,"end":108.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.22971875,"end":105.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.43596875,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.00471875,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.83846875,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.66534375,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.78721875000002,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.36096875,"end":201.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.53096875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.30596875,"end":223.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.87784375,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.48721875,"end":269.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.59221875000003,"end":335.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.40471875000003,"end":401.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.95971875000004,"end":402.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.83721875000003,"end":426.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.95159375000003,"end":433.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.15721875,"end":457.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.01034375,"end":463.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.05159375000005,"end":466.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.28284375000004,"end":484.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.41596875000005,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.91346875000005,"end":482.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.73596875000004,"end":503.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.62346875000003,"end":506.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.59346875000006,"end":508.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.72784375000003,"end":583.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.8047187500001,"end":595.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.95471875,"end":599.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.0890937500001,"end":603.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.83534375,"end":611.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.2053437500001,"end":625.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.77284375,"end":626.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.47284375,"end":630.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.0209687500001,"end":636.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.89784375,"end":674.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.59221875,"end":675.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.3178437500001,"end":702.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.1997187500001,"end":710.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.16471875,"end":711.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.9365937500002,"end":712.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.65784375,"end":730.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.22909375,"end":732.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.9922187500001,"end":742.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.93596875,"end":743.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.49284375,"end":757.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.4228437500001,"end":762.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.89909375,"end":763.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.2322187500001,"end":771.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.87659375,"end":772.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.61909375,"end":778.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.66034375,"end":781.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.11971875,"end":784.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.7522187500001,"end":796.36221875},{"speaker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就是從我今年就任以後我就要求同仁盤點所有的法規命令然後那個什麼作業規則所以我們已經盤點了一大堆就是在下半年的話我們會出版那所以是因為還不夠詳細嗎還是說還不夠嚴謹嗎為什麼會出這樣子的事情"},{"start":70.097,"end":94.866,"text":"因為相關的作業要點或是作業希致作業準則的話就是有點善就是說這個要點會很多所以他沒有一個就為什麼我說我要出版手冊呢?手冊就是要把它通通集結在我這邊要要求就是說你們經過這次的事件之後再把所有的這些SOP全部再檢討過好嗎?是"},{"start":96.647,"end":101.777,"text":"希望說我們用更嚴謹的態度對待我們的文物不能用這麼鬆散的心態來辦理相關事宜故宮絕對是嚴謹的但是的確是有疏失這個我們承認"},{"start":108.479,"end":116.583,"text":"一定要檢討那接下來呢今天早上也多位委員都非常的關心蕭院長你有沒有被徵詢是不是會繼續來擔任我們故宮的院長對未來故宮會由誰繼續帶領大家都非常的關心但是本席在這邊的重點是有一個說法讓我本席覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":128.189,"end":133.433,"text":"就是在新任院長還沒有人選沒有公布之前呢有人就用性別當作議題來聲稱如果新任的院長是女性那國寶就不再是國寶院長你覺得這樣的說法恰當嗎"},{"start":141.818,"end":166.327,"text":"國寶永遠是國寶,國寶的話有兩種,一種的話是我們自己審定的國寶中藥國物,一種是民眾認知的,就故宮的人氣國寶,像崔一白猜黑。國寶的定義跟新任院長的性別毫無關係,所以本席覺得非常的遺憾,竟然有這樣的言論,那明年故宮就要迎來百年的院慶,會面臨很多的挑戰,我們也有無限的可能,性別不是適應的標準,專業才是。"},{"start":169.008,"end":176.594,"text":"好 接下來院長針對我們目前很熱烈討論的現代藝術跟博物館等建築結合的這個議題最近這個史博館的玻璃盒跟故宮的玻璃亭被熱烈的討論並對比那院長您過去曾擔任文化部次長如果用文化跟博物館學的角度來看"},{"start":194.489,"end":201.465,"text":"針對說現代建築美學跟博物館的建築的新舊風格這樣如何融合,您有什麼看法?"},{"start":203.364,"end":223.041,"text":"古蹟跟新的建築融合其實在全世界的範例就是說並不是沒有有這樣的一個範例但是因為故宮的案例的話是2022年就是他招標然後就是有廠商四家廠商有一家得標得標的廠商的話他就是造一個玻璃入口那因為他"},{"start":223.962,"end":250.535,"text":"因為這樣他得標了那得標的話當然第一次送那個臺北市文集審沒有審過可是我上任之後我不能剝奪他的修正權所以基本上來講的話我要求他根據社會的意見然後還有那個臺北市文集集的意見去做修正所以他把量體縮小了把那個協議頂縮小了但是在我們跟民眾的一個公開夜燃的過程裡面還是有很多的意見"},{"start":251.175,"end":251.195,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":266.58,"end":268.342,"text":"謝謝院長您有說會彙整相關的意見那其實當初採用玻璃的想法可能因為覺得它是透明的對於這個建築物的遮蔽可能就是比較不會讓民眾覺得很違和"},{"start":283.058,"end":309.688,"text":"但是如果說史博館的這個例子因為史博館的玻璃盒真的讓民眾感覺太突兀但如果說你們要參考羅浮宮、大英博物館都有使用這個玻璃建築這樣子的做法呢其實本席在這邊我不討論說我們這個故宮的玻璃亭是不是要興建這個興建與否不是我關注的焦點而是說在反古跟現代爭執中所謂的去中化就真的想太多想得太複雜"},{"start":310.868,"end":311.208,"text":"接下來再跟院長來討論"},{"start":339.326,"end":349.917,"text":"就是故宮跟北榮在昨天有簽署合作備忘錄宣布這個金牌人生認知的這個牌卡正式發行那這次一份裡面會有60張的牌卡還有一個手冊那上面的圖卡其實都是故宮的經典文物啦 十分的細緻也讓民眾可以藉這個機會來接觸到我們故宮很珍貴的這些文物"},{"start":362.509,"end":382.211,"text":"那透過這個圖卡上面的文物來引導這個失智症的患者來對話呢也促進他們認知能力的訓練那在醫學期刊上啦甚至說北榮神經醫學中心的副職人對這個圖卡的這個作用呢也非常的認可就是說其實這個真的也可以幫助到失智症患者"},{"start":383.353,"end":401.276,"text":"我非常肯定說我們故宮在推廣樂齡教育這個服務也很用心也希望說故宮你們能持續的來推廣那在這邊請問叫院長就是說你們跟北榮簽署的這個合作備忘錄之後呢有沒有預計如何來推廣這個這麼好的這個金牌人生這個牌卡"},{"start":403.041,"end":426.279,"text":"第一個三年的合作配合 第一個就持續推動這個牌卡之外的話我們希望說有更進階的就譬如說我們可以利用數位科技然後讓這個牌卡的話可以進入到AR VR的一個情況那另外的話當然就是說未來是不是可以用AI來提升認知的話我想三年的時間的話我們會去做研議"},{"start":427.04,"end":433.337,"text":"那比如說跟衛福部的醫療院所或是教育部的樂齡中心來合作這個你們有沒有考慮?"},{"start":434.578,"end":457.451,"text":"我們不排除跟所有的醫療院所合作因為在那天的話我們也跟榮總講就是說我們盡量盡量譬如說我在臺灣博物館的時候我們就跟那個臺北聯合醫學中心去合作然後有那個所謂的社會處方簽去看醫生醫生開一個處方說你要去看博物館類似這樣的情況的話我們未來的話有更多人的合作"},{"start":459.313,"end":465.3,"text":"教育部的熱靈中心希望你們可以積極主動推廣是,我們跟在部熱靈中心跟衛福部會來聯絡"},{"start":467.406,"end":467.586,"text":"臺灣的民俗的"},{"start":495.498,"end":499.72,"text":"有很多位委員有問過了關於我們故宮文物這些我們的保存人員我們的修復人員"},{"start":523.11,"end":530.373,"text":"故宮有超過70萬件的文物但是我們目前文物修復人員只有16位那在編制內的技術人員有即將退休的那因為原額你們還欲缺不補所以代表之後呢之後的文物修復人員可能會只剩下13位那依照博物館法的規定預算法可以設置就是設置作業基金那作業基金呢可以作為編制外人員的人事支出以自籌30%為限"},{"start":552.523,"end":558.329,"text":"那目前我們有四位是透過基金來聘請的那本席記得去年在審查預算的時候呢本來你們故宮的文物藝術發展基金編列的業務收入是3億5885萬那本席有提增列所以變成是3億6885萬那如果說依法在30%之內可以作為人事支出的話"},{"start":576.547,"end":577.828,"text":"所以院長有這樣的規劃就是說以這樣的基金來支應擴編人力的這個部分"},{"start":604.18,"end":630.157,"text":"對那當然就是說我們會重新盤點所有的人力因為剛剛委員資料上面也講說我們的巨工就是退休一切不補所以現在第一個的話我們就控管那個院長的司機院長司機的話退休不補然後把那個錢留給那個留給那個必要的接下來的話就控管副院長的司機就是說他這個部分的話我想我們會"},{"start":631.218,"end":637.461,"text":"謝謝院長 副院長您用心我再提一下我們故宮也有修復實習生是協助修復人員在進行比較非核心的修復工作一些協助的工作這幾年故宮單位都會入企每年入企大概10到15名的修復實習生"},{"start":653.829,"end":673.822,"text":"再來呢 如果說因為修復空間 搬遷這個時程不確定我們現在只死收四位 有兩位外籍 兩位是本國籍那你們這邊跟教育部清發署洽談了114年你們會分到有五名那這五名是額外的名額還是在這十到十五名之內"},{"start":675.603,"end":690.883,"text":"基本上來講的話是這樣就是因為今年的話今年的話是因為我們在整修空間整修空間的話沒有多餘的能量去收納實習生要不然的話我們歷年都增長到最高有14位所以我們希望說等到新故宮計畫"},{"start":692.205,"end":692.385,"text":"陳秀寳議員陳秀寳"},{"start":714.275,"end":741.455,"text":"這邊請教院長在故宮實習過的實習生截至目前為止有83位那我相信說他們在故宮實習這個寶貴的經驗對我們台灣培育這個文物的修復人才是有很大的注意那如果說這些畢業生以後來我們故宮這邊應徵的話你們會不會優先入用報告就是故宮的我們的修務的那個洪科長就是在故宮實習的其實我們裡面起碼有三四位是在故宮實習後來到故宮任職的"},{"start":743.621,"end":757.686,"text":"所以說因為他們有這樣的經驗也有這樣的默契所以你們會優先的來入用那有沒有考慮說在暑期的時候提供短期的公讀計畫來緩解修復人力的不足就是這些實習生他們可以來在短期的支援"},{"start":759.437,"end":781.258,"text":"因為暑期的話就是實習那實習的話基本上來講的話進入到庫房要經過一個專業的基礎訓練不是任何人都可以進庫房因為基本上來講的話也不是說很簡單的一個行前教育就可以進入所以這個部分的話公讀生的部分他只能做周邊的一個"},{"start":782.219,"end":782.239,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":807.597,"end":811.04,"text":"故宮對於文化修復的人員的培訓能夠多加規劃以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71cee6e3bad853f7e6bf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac7123254f0538377ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:20:08 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談判並沒有針對關稅的部分去處理我跟你講最重要就在關稅那大家彼此協定臺灣的農業水準也到了這個地方我們不能再讓步了這個談判這樣就很脆弱了我跟委員報告"},{"start":217.836,"end":219.938,"text":"我希望你能做到這一點因為以後是免關稅是世界級的競爭案"},{"start":233.444,"end":244.208,"text":"免關稅不是所有的東西都免關稅那相對的話會根據我們的產品的優勢去處理我想我們臺灣的農業其實臺灣的農業產品都可以銷到美國啦不要他的牛肉豬肉銷來我們臺灣我們不能銷過去啦這樣不合理的啦我想我們一定會"},{"start":258.106,"end":260.508,"text":"針對我們的農民的權益包括發展產品的競爭會做到的努力。"},{"start":275.477,"end":298.519,"text":"我跟委員報告,蜂農的部分我們現在基本上經過跟業者協調跟我們內部討論基本上如果說它的蜂蜜的蜜源受到某個程度的損失的時候我們就會把它納入我們的天然災害救助的相關的辦法這個我想已經確定了然後現在我們相關的草案已經擬定了有沒有"},{"start":299.552,"end":299.572,"text":"再來,"},{"start":328.228,"end":338.061,"text":"最近你在討論公糧收購的價格提高你是看你的講話的意思是不怎麼贊成提高啊"},{"start":339.412,"end":367.054,"text":"我跟委員說明齁其實包括希望公糧收購提高背後的目的都是希望我們農民的所得能夠確保跟甚至於提高嘛我想這個是大家一致性的但是在討論到針對農民所得的確保稻農所得的確保的時候他有很多種方式跟他的配套作為那公糧直接啟動公糧的價格提高只是一個方法之一那這個方法是不是唯一的"},{"start":368.215,"end":381.931,"text":"我們認為不是唯一的我們還有其他的方法可以去做相關的處理一個很簡單的道理你們的說法都互相矛盾不會你說你的道良是為了會影響到"},{"start":382.932,"end":408.308,"text":"那個糧食的安全你的報告又說臺灣的稻米生產過剩怎麼會影響到糧食的安全還有你的報告裡面如果供糧提高收購的價格農民又轉做來做稻糧但是我要提醒你一句話我們新任的農業部長農民的期望他不管怎麼樣"},{"start":409.349,"end":431.541,"text":"因為所謂的物價都在上漲你供糧收購沒有上漲包括你的那個雅恩愛啦各方面都在上已經都在上漲供糧收購你不上漲啊你變成啊我們農民的一個罪人你一定會受到評舉我希望這點好好的你要做一個影響"},{"start":432.781,"end":455.543,"text":"一個評估一個做一個好好的規劃我剛才說了工糧的收購提高只是方法之一那我們應該有更好的方法就是提高我們的稻農所得跟確保我們稻農所得是我們一次的目標我想我們一定會朝這樣的目標去做一個完整的規劃但是你趕快出來每次鄉下農民都問到說要吃什麼你給他們保證說"},{"start":459.123,"end":461.584,"text":"臺灣的糧食已經過剩了所謂影響到糧食的安全問題"},{"start":483.8,"end":494.705,"text":"整個的糧食安全本身他有適當的面積去處理。縱水道還有另外一個最重要的考量就是水資源...我們可以做完整的一個規劃再跟委員說明"},{"start":505.063,"end":505.503,"text":"好謝謝陳超明委員"}]}},{"id":"152301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71b1df0e6ae51b7ab4bf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac752c7019b845b5da65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:15:52 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14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":344,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:20:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:14:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時14分）主席好，有請國防部副部長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：來，柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：林委員早。"],["林委員憶君：早。1959年，美國分別在義大利和土耳其這兩個北約的前線國家部署了中程核子飛彈，射程可以直接打到莫斯科，當時的蘇聯作為回應，除了因此大幅增加對古巴的軍事援助外，還秘密的也在古巴部署了中程飛彈，當時美國和蘇聯兩個核子國家差點就因為情勢誤判而引發核子戰爭，這就是國際間的古巴飛彈危機。所以最近美國在菲律賓北部部署了泰風武器站，北京政府也馬上公布了中共軍委會副主席何衛東接見古巴的政治部主任羅霍的新聞，甚至宣布會繼續支持古巴的軍隊建設。","雖然部署在菲律賓的泰風武器站射程不到北京，就連美國現役的戰斧巡弋飛彈也沒有核彈頭的版本，但本席還是覺得，雙方的情勢若繼續這樣發展下去，是否有一種重演當年古巴飛彈危機的升溫過程？請問副部長，你覺得這次的事件會如何影響東亞的政治局勢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，有關於這樣的核彈危機，你也可以曉得最近美中雙方在未來的AI系統如何去掌控這樣的核威脅的時候，各個國家都在降溫，因為事實上來講，俄烏戰爭，最近我們也看到俄羅斯為了這個戰爭也在進行所謂的戰術性核武這樣的演訓活動，我想這樣的方式全球都在關切，也都在降溫的情況之下，如果要回到那個時候的古巴核彈危機，我想這種可能性，大家都可能很理智的在控制這樣的國際安全。"],["林委員憶君：可不可以請副部長給本席一個詳細的書面答復，這樣會比較清楚。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好的，沒問題。"],["林委員憶君：OK。還有一個我最想要問的問題，就是中海軍艦是我國海軍現存唯一在海戰中擊沉中共軍艦的功勳艦，而且具有一個歷史的意義，我們的中海軍艦已經閒置在高雄旗津碼頭很長一段時間了，經過瞭解，去（112）年，海軍、文化部、先前傳出有意接手活化利用的臺南市政府，在去年的共識為先由中央負責修復工程，並由文化部還有海軍共同編列7,330萬元的中海艦基礎維護及現況調查計畫，所以在考量活化再利用之前，海軍應該儘速完成修復工程。但是從你們之前送來的預算解凍說明看起來，最後還是沒有協調成功，對我們這一艘功勳艦，國防部最後還是想要把它拆除嗎？還是不斷的編列預算讓它浮在碼頭上？而且海軍在今（113）年度國防預算編列3,300萬，辦理了艦體現況調查、史政講習、口述歷史調查及古物審核等作業，現在卻傳出海軍花了那麼多錢來維修，但是沒有人也沒有任何一個地方政府想要接手中海軍艦，海軍只能暫時待修復放在左營軍港。請問副部長，究竟真正的原因是什麼？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我們也還在協調文化部，事實上，四千多萬的海軍自籌款我們也在做，基本上，我們希望這個歷史能夠保存，不管是高雄市政府或是臺南市政府，我們也在文化部的積極協調之下，我們希望這個艦將來能夠整修完畢，呈現一個歷史的原貌，供國人來參訪，我想這個是非常重要的手段，我們還在跟文化部協調。"],["林委員憶君：就我瞭解，我可以提供一下意見，國家退役軍艦改當軍艦博物館的展出，其實在美國、日本還有英國都有很多相關的傳統，我們來看一下左邊的這些簡報，就是美國還有日本、英國都有這樣的例子，我們其實可以參考。臺灣現在唯一的軍艦博物館在臺南，我們的中海軍艦作為中華民國海軍現存極少的功勳艦，難道不應該保留下來，作為後代瞭解歷史，還有瞭解國軍如何在一場場的血腥戰役中，守衛國家的見證嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，當然我們一定要保留它，所以我們跟文化部在合作，至於它是怎麼樣的保留方式、在哪個縣市政府，我想這個都是將來這個艦艇所做的陳展，如果放到任何縣市政府，我覺得它都對那個縣市政府的文化是有加分的作用，我們也鼓勵縣市政府來爭取這樣一個所謂的中海艦的陳展方式。"],["林委員憶君：因為中央的文化部指出這是重要的文物了嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["林委員憶君：我覺得國防部是不太夠積極的修復。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們會積極。"],["林委員憶君：之後再活化利用，然後也可以考慮把整個船吊掛在陸上來存放，畢竟它是擊沉中共軍艦、完成使命的重要功臣，所以我們希望這個可以儘早推動。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會努力，謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員，各位請回，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.125968750000002,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.87221875,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.415968750000005,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.74034375,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.89846875,"end":71.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.15909375000001,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.33409375000001,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.04971875000001,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.23034375,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":154.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.81096875,"end":193.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.63784375,"end":206.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.01971875,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.28846875000002,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.07659375000003,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.21096875,"end":270.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.95909375,"end":278.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.29534375000003,"end":285.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.33221875000004,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.48659375,"end":313.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.28159375,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.01096875,"end":317.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.87971875,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.07346875,"end":324.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.51596875,"end":325.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.03346875,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.12159375000005,"end":344.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.20971875000004,"end":341.74971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":3.834,"text":"主席好 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博副部長議員早"},{"start":13.805,"end":33.61,"text":"1959年的時候美國分別在意大利和土耳其這兩個北約的前線國家部署了中程核子飛彈射程可以直接打到莫斯科因此當時的蘇聯作為回應除了因此大幅增加對古巴的軍事援助外還秘密的也在古巴部署了中程飛彈當時美國和蘇聯兩個核子國家差點就因為情勢的誤判引發核子戰爭"},{"start":40.231,"end":61.421,"text":"這就是國際間的古巴飛彈危機所以最近美國在菲律賓北部部署了颱風武器站那北京政府也馬上公布了中共軍委會的副主席何偉東接見古巴的政治部主任盧霍的新聞甚至宣布會繼續支持古巴的軍隊建設雖然部署在菲律賓的颱風武器站射程不到北京就連美國現役的戰斧巡弋飛彈也沒有核彈頭的版本"},{"start":69.645,"end":73.288,"text":"但本席還是覺得若繼續在這樣的雙方的情勢發展下去是否有一種重演當年的古巴飛彈的危機的升溫過程那請問副部長你覺得這次的事件會如何影響東亞的政治局勢呢"},{"start":85.353,"end":102.305,"text":"報告委員有關於這樣的核彈危機你也可以曉得最近美中雙方在未來的AI系統如何去掌控這樣的核威脅的時候各國家都在降溫因為事實上來講俄烏的戰爭最近我們也看到俄羅斯為了這個戰爭"},{"start":103.706,"end":121.256,"text":"也在進行所謂的戰術性核武的這樣子的一個演訓的活動那我想這樣子的一個方式全球都在關切也都在降溫的情況之下如果要回到古巴那個時候的核彈危機的我想這種可能性大家都可能很理智的在控制這樣子的一個國際安全"},{"start":123.063,"end":123.664,"text":"中海軍艦是我國海軍現存唯一在海戰中集成中共軍艦的工訓艦"},{"start":140.219,"end":160.765,"text":"而且有一個歷史的意義然後我們的中海軍艦已經閒置在高雄奇景碼頭很長的一段時間了經過了解去年112年海軍文化部有先前傳出有意接手活化利用的臺南市政府在去年共事委先由中央負責修復工程並由文化部還有海軍共同編列7330萬元"},{"start":163.366,"end":165.767,"text":"凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度"},{"start":192.856,"end":194.458,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度"},{"start":215.319,"end":242.921,"text":"報告委員我想我們也在協調文化部他事實上4000多萬我們海軍自籌款我們也在做我們事實上來講基本上來講我們希望這個歷史能夠保存那不管是高雄市政府或台南市政府我們也在文化部的積極協調之下我們希望這個艦將來能夠把它整修完畢以後還是呈現到一個歷史的原貌供給國人來參訪"},{"start":244.002,"end":270.323,"text":"然後我想這個是非常重要的手段我們還在跟國防部在做協調好那據我了解我可以提供一下像國家退役的軍艦再改當軍艦博物館的展出其實在美國、日本還有英國都有很多相關的傳統像我們看一下左邊的這些簡報就是美國還有日本還有英國都有這樣的例子我們其實可以參考而且那台灣唯一現在的軍艦博物館在台南"},{"start":271.024,"end":284.851,"text":"那我們的中海軍艦作為中華民國的海軍現存極少的工訓艦難道不應該保留下來嗎?作為後代的後代了解歷史還有了解國軍如何在一場場的血腥戰役中守衛國家的見證嗎?報委員當然我們一定要保留它所以我們這個跟文化部在合作那至於說它怎麼樣表流的方式在哪個縣市政府我想這個都是將來"},{"start":299.218,"end":317.368,"text":"這個艦艇所做的成展．如果放任何縣市政府．我覺得它都是．對縣市政府文化是有加分的作用．我們也鼓勵縣市政府．來爭取這樣子的一個．所謂的一個中海艦的一個成展方式．因為中央的文化部其實指出這個是重要的文物了．那為國防部應該要．"},{"start":320.149,"end":343.512,"text":"我覺得是不太夠積極的修復我們會積極之後再活化利用然後也可以考慮把整個船吊掛在路上來存放其實我覺得這個是一個畢竟它是集成中共軍艦完成使命的重要的工程所以我們希望這個可以盡早謝謝委員的提醒是我們會努力謝謝委員好謝謝林玉君委員好各位請回謝謝接下來進行"}]}},{"id":"152299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71050d84ebc2912736f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac770c22a708fcbdf185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：這一次花蓮0403的大地震，除了造成很多房屋倒塌、飯店倒塌之外，很重要的就是聯外道路──蘇花公路相關的這些公路中斷，就造成我們很多的農漁產品沒有辦法運到北部這邊，變成要去繞一大圈到南部，再到臺北，事實上真的是很花費時間，而且必須要凌晨的凌晨、要更早就要出發，現在蘇花公路雖然已經有通一部分，但它是單線，而且還有限制車輛的大小，所以這個部分是有這樣的一個狀況。","農業部當然也有因應這些措施，在整個行政院的召集，在285億中占了一小塊1.83億，來振興當地農村的旅遊，並推出每張250元面額的優惠券。有關這個部分，有幾個部分要再去精進，第一個，時間7月1號還相當久，發生時間是在4月3號，到現在都還沒有辦法實施，這個部分其實不是那麼困難，因為過去都很有經驗，疫情之後有很多相關經驗，把它拿來複製就可以了，過去花蓮發生的地震，或是其他縣市發生的相關風災，都有很多經驗可以參考，所以這個部分要請農業部農糧署多加油。第一個，時間可以提早嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，這次地震，針對農產品，因為道路中斷的關係，會影響到農產品往西部送的部分，所以我們在第一時間就針對運費做補助；更重要的就是，因為道路的中斷，沒辦法買的時候、遊客不會進去的時候，當下我們就辦了一個活動叫重新出發，就是在網購平臺買500送100，就是希望……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有，部長，那個我都知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後您剛才講的這個部分是要拉遊客進去的部分，我想不只是農業部，我們也會配合交通部觀光局這邊一起來啟動，啟動的時間點，我想整個政府是一體的，時間點會依交通的順暢度而定，能夠儘快當然我們會儘快。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，在上個禮拜六，鄭文燦副院長跟很多部會的單位都去了花蓮縣政府，那一天有特別講，因為我們也都有反映，所以那一天已經確定會提早到6月……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，會提前。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分，你們也要有相關因應。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我們一定會配合。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這些相關細節在你們的報導裡面，今天農村水保署署長沒有來，這個部分他說還在規劃整個細節，這些要趕快去把它完整。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會儘快地配合整個行政院的振興平臺同步來推動。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分不僅僅是這樣，這是農產品的部分，另外你們也要去盤點，應該也都有資料了，如果你們已經有相關的資料，我們比對一下，我這邊是不是還有漏的。針對這些農路，因為道路也受到影響，農路的部分，因為那段時間除了地震之外又下雨，就鬆動了，然後一下雨，護岸等等的也受到影響。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，地震以後，我們農村水土保持署隨時在監控它的大規模崩塌地，相關農路如果受損，我們跟縣市政府也有一個平臺，它會隨時通報，我們也會納入相關計畫，目前為止大概有1.1億左右在持續投入農路的修復。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你說這次的嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這次的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：針對地震嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，天然災害的部分，包括地震的部分以及崩塌下來的部分，這些道路的查估，包括我們農村水保署還有縣市政府也都會查估，查估回來以後，我們會納入這次專案的部分去做處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是不是給我一份你們現在已整理的資料？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我們後續把這些我們已經得到的資料一份給委員參考。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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委員長好這次花蓮0403的大地震除了造成很多的房屋倒塌、飯店倒塌然後很重要的就是蓮外的道路我們從蘇哈公路相關的這些公路的中段"},{"start":59.036,"end":89.036,"text":"﹗"},{"start":89.775,"end":114.557,"text":"然後這個現在雖然蘇花公路雖然已經有通一部分但是它是單線而且還有限制這個車輛的大小所以這個部分是有這樣的一個狀況所以這個農業部當然也有因應著這些措施在整個行政院的這個召集然後285億"},{"start":117.762,"end":137.192,"text":"的之中（站了一小塊（1.83億振興當地農村的理由（然後當然就是提出這個每一張（250元面額的優惠券（這個部分有幾個部分要去再去"},{"start":140.145,"end":143.087,"text":"這個經濟的一個時間這個7月1號就還相當久這個7月1號現在當時我們發生是4月3號啊"},{"start":152.658,"end":179.613,"text":"施業上號到現在都還沒有辦法實施因為這個部分其實不是那麼困難的因為過去都很有經驗這個疫後的疫情之後為了要那個都有很多的經驗把它拿來複製就可以了何況過去這個花蓮的造成的地震或是其他縣市的造成的"},{"start":180.894,"end":197.009,"text":"這個相關風災啊都有都有很多的一個可以參考的所以這個部分要請農業部這個農糧署在這邊去多加油這個第一個時間可以提早嗎"},{"start":199.526,"end":219.385,"text":"我跟委員說明就是這個地震我想針對農產品因為道路中斷的關係會影響到農產品的往西部送的這樣所以我們在第一時間就針對那個運費的補助那其實我們更重要就是因為道路的中斷你沒辦法買的時候遊客不會進去的時候所以我們當下就"},{"start":219.765,"end":247.512,"text":"我們就辦了一個活動叫重新出發就是在網購平台買500送100就是希望對然後現在這個部分您剛才講這個部分是遊客要進去那要拉遊客進去的部分我想不只是農業部我們也會配合交通部的觀光局這邊一起來啟動那這個啟動的時間點會依我想整個政府是一體的會依交通的順暢度能夠能夠盡快當然我們會盡快"},{"start":249.292,"end":262.792,"text":"好部長哈這個在上禮拜六哈上禮拜六鄭文燦副院長是這個跟很多的部會的這個單位都去了花蓮縣政府嗯"},{"start":264.068,"end":264.088,"text":"﹚鄭天財"},{"start":286.693,"end":310.414,"text":"農村水保署署長也沒有來了所以這個部分他說還在規劃怎麼細節這些趕快去把它這個完整我想我們會盡快的配合整個行政院的政經平台會同步的推動這個部分因為不僅僅是這樣這個是農產品這個部分另外就是你們也要去盤點"},{"start":312.776,"end":340.539,"text":"應該也有多資料看怎麼樣資料怎麼樣也如果你們已經有相關的資料我們比對一下我這邊是不是還有你們沒有落的就針對這些農路因為道路也受到影響農路的部分包括這些這個因為那段時間除了地震之外又下雨下雨就有鬆動了然後一下雨"},{"start":345.14,"end":364.345,"text":"我跟委員說明,像地震以後,我們農政協調組隨時在監控它的帶光的崩塌地,那相關的農路如果受準的話,我想縣市政府,我們也跟縣市政府有一個平台,他隨時通報,那我們也會納入相關的計畫,那目前為止大概已經有大概1.1億左右在持續在投入這個農路的這個修復。你說這一次的嗎?"},{"start":367.446,"end":383.841,"text":"對,這次的。 針對地震嗎?對,天然災害的部分嘛,因為包括這種地震的部分,然後崩塌下來的部分齁,那這些道路的茶菇包括我們的農村水保署還有縣市政府也都會茶菇。茶菇回來以後,我們會納入整個這次專案的部分去做處理。"},{"start":384.321,"end":400.789,"text":"好,是不是你們現在已經這個所整理的部分那個一份給我。好,我想我們把後續把這些我們已經所得到的資料我們一份給委員參考。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf713316a5e775868f16bf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac7acc59fbda6cce85c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:09:39 - 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22會不會執行．有沒有障礙．或者不方便說"},{"start":126.571,"end":153.717,"text":"我想您剛所提到不管是16也好20也好這都是先進的所謂的我們在未來來講一個共同圖像或CIP裡面非常重要的一個手段所以在各國家來講這都是他最基本的要求那我們國家事實上在未來先進裝備裡面你要做整合的話把所有那個武器系統整合在一個界面上或是這個整合這個是一個非常好的方式整合幾個部分我們國內的三個"},{"start":154.137,"end":169.632,"text":"三個軍種的整合我們陳文康委員也提過徒資小到比例尺你看到的位置跟我看到的位置是不同的位置大到跨軍種再大到跨國之間盟友的整合跟這個大概都有關係這是第一步"},{"start":170.433,"end":189.924,"text":"這是第一步所以說我們自己本身來講一定要建立到自己的系統那所以說我們在所有的這個區域裡面我們如何在未來的信息裝備裡面能夠用link系統把它並連串連在一起這是非常重要的手段link鏈接系統16有它的效用22坦白講"},{"start":190.965,"end":193.127,"text":"．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。．國防部主管預算凍結案等16案。"},{"start":210.165,"end":237.784,"text":"要追求或進行的方向這都是我們未來必須考量的方向那令科二十二目前有沒有障礙還是障礙排除之前的問題沒有障礙沒有障礙好令科二十二的取得沒有障礙那我提外話問一件事情最近我看到唐華也去了那個就剛卸任的印太司令部的司令然後接下來梅家樹去新就任的印太司令部的司令看起來好像有著軍裝"},{"start":239.884,"end":264.616,"text":"今年的2024年環太平洋軍演即將要舉行,我國不管是實質上或民意上有沒有派員參與?報告委員,我想這件事情從1996年這個台海島的試射到現在為止對於這個RAINPAC演習,我們都積極地爭取要參與這樣的演習但目前來講,因為這個多國的演習不是只有關於美國"},{"start":265.416,"end":280.529,"text":"他還牽涉到各國家的地緣戰略和政治的問題所以我們在這樣的區塊之下我們極力的還是要爭取像這樣的國際協定上一次的RINPAC每日在第二階段軍演的時候提到周邊事態那個其實對台灣"},{"start":281.77,"end":303.994,"text":"很有實質意義也跟臺灣相關我印象是在2022年的8月那個時候是岸信夫還主動揭露他們在第二階段真正的盟軍的軍演裡面把臺海跟美日相關列入他們科目裡面在2022年那個時候剛好中共把臺灣周邊劃了七塊當時這個議題被視為就是rebalance"},{"start":309.095,"end":333.66,"text":"讓共軍的雄兵獨舞受到嚇阻今年每兩年一次今年大概七、八月又要環太平洋軍演了既然兩次其實每一次跟台海周邊事務都相當有關不管是東海、台海、南海今年台灣很明顯我們並沒有受到邀請正式邀請應該沒有吧沒有實質的參與有沒有還是不方便講"},{"start":334.56,"end":356.668,"text":"包委員有關於這樣子的一個議題台海的狀況始終是全球關注的焦點所以不管你今天是在RAMPAC演習或是在任何的ARCS他們之間的討論議題上來都在議題都跟我們有關科目也都跟我們有關我在邏輯上的判斷都跟我們有關我們家不可能沒有人在那裡嘛"},{"start":357.711,"end":381.041,"text":"報告委員關於這個我也不方便在這裡跟你報告你會不會講我尊重我的意思是說其實那個所有的科目都跟我們有關既然都跟我們有關如果我們沒有人在那裡那個軍演不就開玩笑嗎但是我覺得我尊重該保密的就保密但是國家安全除了我們自己強化自己的能力以外區域的合作其實也是安全的要素好不好你們加油謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71fd10b54c58e2341b6811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac7bce195e15e3eeecc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:02:50 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10:13:54","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":664,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:13:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:02:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請蕭院長。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：郭委員，謝謝這個禮拜的參訪。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，其實很開心，我們禮拜一有特別到故宮去做考察，雖然我沒有翠玉白菜，但是我的作品在這裡，裡面有三顆玻璃高麗菜，也是很細微的一個作品，為什麼我今天特別帶自己的作品來到這個地方，主要還是要再提及在昨天新聞上，我們看到了翠玉白菜的狀況，這個部分我想的確是有一些疏失，我本身對於自己的作品其實也很珍藏，在搬運的過程其實我也經常是不假手他人，但是在我們古物、文物的部分，那更是需要格外的小心，這個部分院長你們有做什麼樣的懲處或者對民眾有什麼樣的一個交代必須要在這邊說明的嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：關於南美館展覽這件事情，總共將近13萬人，展覽辦得非常成功，尤其同仁嗨昏了頭，忘記了標準作業程序，所以這個部分的確是一個缺失，對專業人員專業本質的訓練，我覺得我們還要再加強。至於懲處的部分，因為臺南美術館他們才把整個結案報告送過來，所以現在還沒有簽到我這邊，我們會用賞罰分明的方式，因為大家真的很辛苦，然後該犯錯就犯錯，我們會來做一個處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，但這樣子的一個舉動對民眾觀感來講其實非常不好。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對故宮的形象有非常非常大的傷害。"],["郭委員昱晴：對。我想關於故宮的百年大展，其實我們也特別強調在明（2025）年其實是雙重意義的一年，就是從臺北建造了臺版故宮到現在其實經過了一甲子，再加上明年百年大展的部分，去年故宮也表示已經開過3次的工作會議，對於明年大展跟活動的部分，是不是也請院長做一個說明？"],["蕭院長宗煌：其實故宮百年活動是我上任以來，我發現過去沒有規劃，所以我就開始著手規劃，有一些部分牽涉到經費的問題，因為我們要跟國外借展，會牽涉到經費，所以為什麼到目前為止都沒有宣布的原因就是因為我們明年的預算今年才會提出，我如果提早宣布，預算沒有辦法配合，基本上來講也是一個大的麻煩。","所以這個部分，慶祝百年活動的規劃我們一直有在進行，從院史的方面、從展覽的方面、從文創行銷的方面，但是我剛也在這邊報告過了，我們的行銷經費少到可憐，我覺得故宮過去好像是因為老品牌都不用做宣傳，不用雜誌、廣告，什麼都不用，覺得大家都會來，因為這個部分牽涉到經費，如果我們要編經費也要主計處同意，然後大院這邊也要支持……"],["郭委員昱晴：可能請故宮這邊也提出你們需要的一些經費或者是一些計畫，比較具體的部分其實可以……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們經費都已經算好了，只是等著要跟主計處協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然我們希望明年的時候故宮可以有一個更全新的風貌，因為百年大展其實也是一個非常重要的事情。我要特別提到「捕捉靈光」這個數位展，其實也呼應到剛剛有委員特別提到，他一直強調說，我們是不是可以把一些文物細節的部分用AI的方式、用資訊的方式，用這樣一個科技化的方式呈現在國人面前……"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，事實上臺南「千載難逢」展覽這一個階段的數位作品其實就是用AI，它用AI去模擬梵谷、塞尚的畫作，然後跟中國的書畫結合在一起，我們已經開始應用了。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，其實連我們沉浸故宮的數位展，我上次也特別去看了一下，我覺得展覽就是這樣，即使我們有7萬件文物在故宮典藏，但不是每一次去我都必須要看到7萬件，我相信你們還有保存，還有很多蒐藏的一些問題，當然每一次的展出對很多人來講，包含我，如果是以觀賞者來講，其實都是一個全新的體驗，在這邊其實也要給故宮一些肯定，使用數位的方式跟民眾一起來做對向的交流，這樣子的展覽其實已經開始了……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，跟委員報告一下，故宮將近70萬件的物件基本上都已經完成數位典藏，所以一般民眾都可以上網去查閱，但是Open data是40萬件，所以我們會繼續努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我在這個地方有講到前一天我們有特別去故宮做了一個考察跟參訪，關於古物、文物的修復現狀，其實我個人看了非常的感動，因為我自己本身在做袖珍藝術的，我看了那麼多不同的工具，那麼多細微、細部的部分，其實匠人的精神就是在這個地方完全的展現，這個地方一定要給故宮更多的支持跟鼓勵。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員。"],["郭昱晴委員：但就是在員額的部分，剛剛其實也有很多委員特別提到，這個部分可能會跟原本行政院人事行政總處這個地方，因為總員額限制的關係，我們要怎麼樣擴展人力，當然不是70萬件都有問題、都需要修復，當然不是這樣，必須是說可能在預防性的修復或者是在修完之後的觀察、維持，這個其實也很重要，但我相信16人對於故宮來講雖然是滿編的狀態，但是它的員額其實還是不足的，這個部分故宮這邊是不是有什麼樣的想法，我們可以跟行政院來做一個相對的……"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，第一個階段，我們接下來會盤整總人力，然後去把空缺騰出來，如果可以優先進補文物修護人才的話，因為南藝大培養很多學生，基本上都進不到博物館，故宮願意開放這樣的一個空缺，讓更多修護人才到故宮。另外，新故宮計畫部分，不管南院、北院，整理之後我們都有一個比較標準的修復空間，然後讓修復的工作可以進行得更順暢。"],["郭委員昱晴：新故宮計畫預計在什麼時候會全部完工呢？因為我記得上一次其實有特別提到。"],["蕭院長宗煌：新故宮計畫部分，北院的圖書文獻大樓，也就是第二展覽館，包括修復室是在明年年底。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，好，那當然……"],["蕭院長宗煌：南院要到117年。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外我還有一個小的問題，就是修復人力部分，這16人是都集中在北院比較多，還是南院其實也有分配到？"],["蕭院長宗煌：目前都在北院。"],["郭委員昱晴：都在北院？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：但南院是不是在織品部分其實也有修復師，是嗎？據目前我所知道的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，典藏研究人員可以做一個基本的維護，可是如果是侵入式的修復，基本上都要經過專業訓練才有辦法進行。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以如果南院的文物需要修復的話，其實還是要送到北院這個地方，對嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，因為要看文物，小的也許會護送，但是一般來講都是北院的修復師下去南院幫忙協作。"],["郭委員昱晴：瞭解，好，因為在運送的過程當中，其實我們也是要確保文物方面的安全，所以人力下去可能是比較妥當的。當然除了修復人力不足以外，另外還有上次我們考察的時候，你們也特別提到在庫房管理的部分其實人力也是嚴重不足的，這個部分只有22個人在管理，尤其是現在整個所有要改箱為櫃，在人力配置上面，故宮有什麼樣的一些困境？其實在這個地方可以告訴我們。"],["蕭院長宗煌：剛剛也有委員提到，基本上我們用傳統的庫房管理，然後要改為RFID，雖然晚一點，但它基本上還是一個基礎，所以未來假如是用AI數位化管理的話，如果可以節省更多的人力，那當然是一個很好的作為，但是經費……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們知道其實在器物存放的庫房當中，光是器物處就有6個庫房，而書畫文獻有7個庫房，沒錯吧？就我知道的總共有13個庫房，但才配置22個人力，1個庫房大概就是1個人多一點，其實是真的不夠的，針對這個部分，其實我們……"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為庫房的管理人力跟我們的研究人員是互補的，研究人員基本上來講，就是書文處的人其實要肩負相對等的一個責任，因為這個部分很難去算哪一個叫做庫房管理人員、哪一個叫做什麼，就是以總體來講的話，譬如書文處我們大概有28個人力。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想在文物管理或者是在修復人力的部分，我們可能還要再繼續努力啦！其實有更多專業的人進入到故宮這個團隊當中，我相信對於我們要讓世界看見故宮、要讓世界看見臺灣有一個故宮，然後有這麼多的藝術品，而且是非常具有代表性的一些古物，我覺得這才是我們最重要的一個目的啦！我們故宮也要好好加油，好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮還有很大的努力空間，希望大家給予支持。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.93596875,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.192218750000002,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.55034375,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.20784375,"end":64.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.67909375,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.29346875,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.86596875000001,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.37909375000001,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.43221875,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.41284375000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.42971875,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.81346875000001,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.85909375000001,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.46596875,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.57971875,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.91284375,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.78596875,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.80284375000002,"end":136.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.81971875000002,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.68409375000002,"end":167.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.70096875000002,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.55721875,"end":184.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.03159375,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.23659375000003,"end":196.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.10409375,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.28034375000001,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.46159375000002,"end":242.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.03096875000003,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.10221875000002,"end":278.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.10596875000005,"end":282.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.43409375000005,"end":297.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.32659375000003,"end":296.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.33471875000004,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":335.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.01221875000005,"end":341.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.30284375,"end":339.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.92721875,"end":354.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.59659375,"end":349.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.78596875,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.40596875,"end":431.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.53221875,"end":383.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.54909375,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.97096875,"end":384.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.17034375000003,"end":461.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.01784375000005,"end":468.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.30846875000003,"end":477.55971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.31534375,"end":476.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.55971875000006,"end":485.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.54596875000004,"end":486.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.28409375,"end":493.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.47721875,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.63971875000004,"end":511.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.36034375,"end":520.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.3547187500001,"end":549.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.4428437500001,"end":554.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.6615937500001,"end":555.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.64034375,"end":575.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.86096875,"end":594.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.55284375,"end":577.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.0278437500001,"end":587.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.99284375,"end":597.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.94159375,"end":604.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.81409375,"end":611.9522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.57659375,"end":624.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.19909375,"end":625.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.51971875,"end":625.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.7222187500001,"end":640.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SP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有請蕭院長好 有請蕭院長郭委員謝謝這個禮拜的一個參訪是 其實很開心喔就是禮拜一的時候我們有特別到故宮去做考察那雖然我沒有翠玉白菜但是我的作品在這裡裡面有那個三顆玻璃高麗菜"},{"start":43.564,"end":63.219,"text":"主要是想要還是要再提及昨天的新聞上面我們看到了翠玉白菜的一個狀況那這個部分我想這個的確是有一些疏失那我自己本身對於自己的作品其實也很珍藏那麼在搬運的過程其實我也經常就是不想要"},{"start":64.74,"end":67.783,"text":"委員長,你們有做什麼樣的一個懲處或者是說對民眾有什麼樣的一個交代必須要在這邊說明的嗎?"},{"start":84.656,"end":100.889,"text":"關於那個南美館展覽這件事情當然就是因為總共將近13萬人然後展覽辦理得非常成功尤其那個同仁嗨婚的頭忘記了標準座位程序所以這個部分的話的確是一個缺失這對專業人員的專業"},{"start":105.453,"end":126.272,"text":"本質的信念我覺得我們還要再加強那至於懲處的部分的話因為台南美術館他們才把那個整個結案報告送過來所以我們現在還沒有簽到我這邊所以我們會用賞華分明的方式就是說因為大家真的很辛苦然後該犯錯就犯錯我們會來做一個處理"},{"start":128.213,"end":154.637,"text":"對,但這樣子的一個舉動的確是對民眾觀感來講其實是非常不好的話對故宮的形象是有非常非常大的一個傷害對好,那我想關於這個故宮的百年大展其實我們就是也特別強調在明年的2025年其實是一個雙重意義的一年就是從台北建造了這個台版的故宮到現在其實我們是一甲子那再加上明年的這個百年大展的部分"},{"start":155.077,"end":156.738,"text":"其實故宮百年的活動是我上任以來我發現說其實過去沒有規劃所以我就開始著手規劃"},{"start":177.98,"end":197.378,"text":"昨日規劃有些部分牽涉到經費的問題因為我們要跟國外借產牽涉到經費所以為什麼到目前為止都沒有宣布的原因就是因為我們的預算明年的預算今年才會提出我如果提早宣布的話那預算沒有辦法配合基本上來講的話也是一個大的麻煩"},{"start":198.779,"end":217.249,"text":"所以這個部分的話 我想百年大展的 百年 慶祝百年活動的規劃我們一起再進行從厭食的方面 然後從展覽的方面 從文創行銷的方面但是我剛也在這邊報告過了 我們的行銷的經費少到可憐 我覺得說"},{"start":218.49,"end":244.891,"text":"故宮過去好像就我老品牌都不用做宣傳不用雜誌廣告什麼都不用然後自己大家都會來所以這個部分的話因為他牽涉到經會如果我們要編經會的話也要主計處同意然後大院這邊也要支持所以這個部分的話那可能請故宮這邊你們也提出你們需要的一些經費或者是一些計畫其實比較具體的部分其實可以我們經會都已經算好了只是只是等著要跟主計處協調"},{"start":246.578,"end":247.179,"text":"國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席"},{"start":276.318,"end":296.26,"text":"事實上在那個臺南的那個千載藍紅的展覽的對一個階段的那個那個數位作品的話其實他就是用AI他用AI去模擬那個幻谷的畫作賽上的畫作然後跟中國的書畫結合在一起所以我們已經開始應用"},{"start":297.461,"end":311.789,"text":"是,其實連我們的這個數位的這個數位展然後曾經故宮的一個數位展其實也上次我特別去看了一下那我覺得展覽就是這樣就是即使我們有7萬件的文物在故宮典藏"},{"start":313.03,"end":313.75,"text":"對 跟我們報告一下"},{"start":341.297,"end":366.262,"text":"故宮將近70萬件的物件的話基本上來講都已經完成數位典藏所以一般民眾的話都可以上網去查閱但是開放open data的話是40萬件所以我們會繼續努力好那當然在這個地方我們有特別講到就是前一天我特別我們有去故宮特別做了一個考察跟參訪那當然關於所謂的這個古物文物的一個修復的一個現狀"},{"start":367.222,"end":383.245,"text":"其實我個人看的是非常的感動啦因為其實我自己本身在做秀真藝術的其實我看了那麼多的不同的工具那麼多的細微的一個細部的部分其實匠人的精神就是在這個地方其實完全的展現這個地方一定要給故宮更多的一個支持跟鼓勵啦"},{"start":383.986,"end":406.957,"text":"但是就是在原額的部分在剛剛其實有很多的委員我們也特別有提到那當然這個部分可能會跟原本在這個行政院的人事行政總處這個地方他們總原額限制的一個關係所以這個部分我們要怎麼樣來來擴展這樣子的一個人力因為我想當然不是70萬件都有問題都需要修補當然不是這樣"},{"start":408.017,"end":428.734,"text":"必須是說我們可能在所謂的預防性的修復或者是在修復完之後的觀察維持這個其實也很重要但我相信其實16人雖然對我們的故宮來講這是滿邊的一個狀態但是其實他緣額還是不足的這個部分是不是故宮這邊有什麼樣的一個想法我們可以來做一個跟行政院這邊來做一個相對的"},{"start":432.337,"end":450.105,"text":"第一階段我們接下來會盤整總人力然後去把那個空間騰出來如果可以優先進補那個文物修復人才的話那因為南印大培養很多學生基本上來講的話都進不到博物館故宮願意開放這樣的一個空間然後讓更多修復人才到故宮來"},{"start":451.605,"end":475.593,"text":"新故宮計畫我們不管南院北院整理之後我們都有一個比較標準的一個修復空間然後讓修復的工作可以進行得更順暢這個預計在什麼時候會全部的完工呢?這個新故宮計畫因為我記得上一次其實有特別提到北院的圖書文獻大樓就第二展覽館包括修復室的話是在明年年底那南院的話要到117年"},{"start":477.594,"end":477.714,"text":"執政委員"},{"start":493.332,"end":520.053,"text":"基本上來講的話典藏的研究人員的話他們可以做一個基本的維護可是如果親入室的修復基本上來講的話都要經過專業訓練才有辦法去進行所以如果是南院的文物需要修復的話其實還是要送到北院這個地方來的嗎不是 因為如果是看文物小的尤其會附送但是一般來講的話都是北院的修復師下去南院去幫忙協作"},{"start":520.393,"end":521.013,"text":"瞭解瞭解"},{"start":550.513,"end":574.4,"text":"故宮有什麼樣的一些困境其實在這個地方可以告訴我們的嗎剛剛也有委員提到基本上來講的話我們用傳統的一個庫房管理然後改為RFIDRFID的話雖然晚一點的話但基本上來講它還是一個基礎所以未來的話如果用AI數位化管理的話如果可以節省更多的人力的話當然是一個很好的一個"},{"start":574.94,"end":597.503,"text":"因為我們知道其實在器物存放的庫房當中光是就是我們的器物處其實就有6個庫房我們的書畫文獻其實有7個庫房沒錯吧如果所知道總共有13個庫房才配置22個人力其實真的一個庫房大概就是一個人多一點其實是其實是真的不夠的那這個部分其實我們"},{"start":599.499,"end":624.15,"text":"因為庫房的管理人力的話其實跟我們研究人員的話是一個互補的就是說研究人員的話基本上來講的話就是書畫類的話就書文處的人他其實要兼顧相對等的一個責任所以因為這個部分的話很難去算說哪一個叫做庫房管理人員哪一個叫做什麼就是說總體來講的話比如說書文處的話我們大概有28個人力"},{"start":625.827,"end":625.867,"text":"主席"},{"start":655.528,"end":658.458,"text":"故宮還有很大的努力空間希望大家給支持"}]}},{"id":"152295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71ec1159274fd2d06af2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac79af8b311af07f0b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:58:45 - 10:08:54","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":609,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:08:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:58:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時58分）有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：針對全台魚塭地目不一，政策反覆，扼殺養殖戶的生計，有幾個重點來做討論。第一個，土地遭受鹽化之後，農民如何因應？第二個，這麼複雜的地目，即使是農業用地，它有農牧用地，也有養殖用地，這樣地目交互混雜所謂廣益的農業用地之下，使用狀況不一，有什麼樣的問題產生？第三，漁民的生計該何去何從？農業部基於永續養殖環境跟糧食安全，所以對國內養殖漁業政策朝縮減陸地魚塭的規模，由4.2萬公頃減到3.5萬公頃，這個本席是支持的。","你們講得很好聽，說要積極輔導業者發展海上箱網養殖，並推廣友善養殖、結合室內養殖模式，以降低傳統水產養殖業高耗水土資源的衝擊。這個也是對的，但是你們的政策規劃有沒有看現況？地目如此不一的情況之下，你們怎麼做配套呢？過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到鹽鹼化了，在無法復養的情況之下，你現在縮減他的陸地養殖規模，沒有問題，養了一輩子的漁民要如何轉業？務農？這是你們給本席辦公室的說明，右邊顯示你們回復怎麼辦、後續的配套是什麼。你們說「已休廢養多年之海（鹹）水養殖魚塭於符合地目（農牧用地）之農業行為，可直接恢復農作使用，倘對於該土地之土壤性質及適合栽種之作物品項需要協助，可向農業試驗所或各地區農業改良場洽詢。」這個凸顯農業部的政策規劃失能，你要達到永續養殖、糧食安全，但是他的土地因為要配合你這個政策，不能再養殖了。這是他的財產，你限制他的財產不能再用於養殖，要轉為務農，那你的規劃是什麼？您是植物學者，既然學者要當公務人員，又多了部長這個政務官身分，你的思維可不能是學者，偏偏你的規劃思維就是，好啦！你要照政府的政策，我限制你的土地、你的財產，不好意思，你怎麼樣我沒有要處理，要不要給你一條生路，那不是我的事情，你自己去問政府相關單位，這個思維就是這樣。","有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地，這就是廣義的農業用地，還有許多養殖戶「因未將地目變更為養殖漁業用途（維持農牧地目）」，這句話是什麼意思呢？就是你們也承認很多養殖戶的地目叫做農牧用地。他有種種原因，並沒有把農牧用地變更為養殖用地，雖然都在廣義的農業用地之下。這樣的面積有多少？這也是你們的公開資料，等一下再說。如果是這樣的情況之下，我本來是養殖，沒有變更為養殖用地，你們這一道命令下去，是基於永續養殖、環境跟糧食安全，本席支持，但是你沒有顧及衝擊面，你們這個規定下去之後，既存魚塭的土地屬農牧用地的，過往三年沒有養殖事實就不能申請復養，如果再養殖就是非法使用。本席要講的是，如果這三年沒有養殖，但是過往十幾、二十年有養殖的事實，你是不採的。人家是因為種種原因，這三年就是沒有辦法養殖，然而過往十幾、二十年……我支持如果過往這三年、之前完全沒有養殖事實的，不好意思，你就得配合政策了，但是如果你是這三年沒有養殖，但是過往是有的，而且十幾、二十年，傳了第二代、第三代了，這樣你把它限制下去，他們就不能再養殖了。","你們的回文是什麼呢？我也請你們調出來，到底這樣的面積有多少？如果是少數，我們看怎麼做一些配套。你們農業部的回文說全臺漁電共生不利於相關農業耕種或漁牧，你們化作漁電共生區的有兩萬多公頃，這兩萬多公頃有三個分類，現在分類都按照你左邊這張回文，第一個分類叫做農牧用地，持續三年沒有在養事實的魚塭有922公頃，雖然它在兩萬多公頃漁電共生專區只占了4.4%，但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃。第二個，這兩萬多公頃當中，有1715.74公頃是提出申請的。第三個，還有一萬八千多公頃，也就是這裡的漁電共生當中，還有87%的用地還沒使用。本席就針對第一個項目，農牧用地之前有養殖事實，只不過這三年沒有這個事實，我針對這樣的魚塭跟您請益。","這是一個實例，下面這一張圖周邊都是完整的魚塭區，他可以依法做漁電共生，這是你們的規定，但是中間夾雜這一塊廢棄的魚塭，他偏偏近三年沒有養殖的事實，那也沒關係，你說不能養殖那就要務農，可是偏偏又是土壤鹽鹼化嚴重。部長是植物專家，你覺得他可以種什麼？依你的政策要種什麼？有經濟價值的，那種什麼是有經濟價值的？你要告訴人家一條路，不能叫人家自己去問農改場。最後，漁民的生計要何去何從？一般農業區的農牧用地要申請合法的魚塭，必須要有既存的養殖，而且過去有三年復養的事實，如果不得復養，養殖戶就必須改為務農，但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地鹽化，所以你就叫人民的土地閒置在那邊。就算漁民要改為其他的物種，我是養石斑魚的，我要改為虱目魚，我的設備、技術、人才培訓、市場開發，光是養魚改為不同的物種就要花多大的力氣？你直接一句話，說你們漁民不能這樣，要配合政府，不能養、不能種植，直接務農，也沒告訴人家要怎麼做。","再來，這種廢棄魚塭還有什麼問題？我就以本席的選區為例，這個新聞是在今年3月，一個魚塭廢棄已久，它不是廢棄已久就沒水哦！有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此，長年有水，雖然叫廢棄的魚塭。因為水溫太高，旁邊本來沒有水母，結果生態改變，所以水母暴增。你們對於廢棄魚塭有相關的配套嗎？沒有！全臺十縣市的漁電共生區當中地目不一，農業部怎麼可以用一刀切，採取剛性作業的原則，毫無配套？","聽好，部長，您是即將連任的部長，您要符合人民對於行動創新AI內閣的期待，您的配套就要針對這個政策執行之後帶來的衝擊，你要以人民的角度規劃配套，不要沒有解決問題又製造問題，就像現在對於廢棄魚塭的相關政策。部長，請回答。"],["陳代理部長駿季：簡單的跟委員說明，委員剛才提到一些我們的回復，我也覺得有不恰當的地方，這是第一點。第二點，我們先不處理光電後續的……"],["林委員岱樺：不需要？針對廢棄魚塭就好了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，針對廢棄魚塭，我也覺得以你剛才的案例來講，其實應該輔導他恢復到養殖漁業，而不是變成農牧用地，就算它是農牧用地也應該……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，你這句話就夠了，我覺得你已經做了改變，下面漁業署相關的我們再來討論。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定"},{"start":409.407,"end":422.74,"text":"但是那中間夾雜了這一塊廢棄的餘溫但是他偏偏這三年就沒有近三年沒有養殖的事實可是呢那也沒關係你就說不能養殖的嘛那就要務農啊那可是他偏偏他又是這個土壤鹽鹼化嚴重啦所以您這個植物專家部長你覺得他可以種什麼"},{"start":430.595,"end":431.055,"text":"農產品市場交易法"},{"start":447.282,"end":467.062,"text":"最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊"},{"start":468.524,"end":472.185,"text":"所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養不能種植直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做"},{"start":497.233,"end":500.036,"text":"好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此"},{"start":518.614,"end":518.895,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":533.946,"end":538.589,"text":"沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長"},{"start":549.777,"end":550.178,"text":"部長請回答"},{"start":574.268,"end":585.635,"text":"簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫就好針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說"},{"start":589.497,"end":589.517,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71cc95f54d668cfe52bf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac778074bfe64d79d245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:05:46 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14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":375,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:07:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:01:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請國安局柯副局長。"],["主席：柯副局長，請。"],["柯副局長承亨：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：副局長好。今年3月21的時候我曾經質詢過蔡局長，當時是問國人前往香港旅行的時候，是不是風險增加了？因為當時我們討論到的是香港實施了所謂的第二十三條。不知道副局長早上有沒有看到這一則自由時報的最新新聞？就是中國4月26號有一個國安新規提前實施，那麼國人現在到中國去的話，如果你有帶手機、筆電，可能都需要小心一點，可能隨時會被抽查。我先請問，你們有收到這個訊息嗎？有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，我有看到這則訊息，因為這個規定本來是7月1號開始實施，但是目前據一些民眾反映，在不同的城市他的平板跟手機已經被抽檢了。"],["林委員楚茵：好，根據目前你收到的訊息，比如說有哪些城市？"],["柯副局長承亨：好像是上海跟深圳，就是有一些地方。"],["林委員楚茵：上海跟深圳其實是國人前往中國的時候非常主要的進出城市，因為包括我們的飛機有直航，現在有嗎？"],["柯副局長承亨：有。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所謂的第二十三條跟現在中國國安部所公布的國安新規裡面的規定跟規則到底是什麼，副局長有沒有掌握？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，第二十三條是在香港，但是他們國安新規這些行政程序的一些加強檢查是全國性，而且他們對境外人士事實上都有，等於擴大了範圍。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意就是說，事實上也不是只有臺灣人啦！"],["柯副局長承亨：沒錯。"],["林委員楚茵：等於是說全世界的旅客進入中國，只要7月1號他們實施了這個所謂中國國安部第四十條的規定，那就是國家安全機關可以針對個人或組織的電子設備來進行盤查，而且是沒有理由的盤查，只要他們認為影響到國安。言下之意是說，接下來只要他們認為需要檢查的個案，就會拿走手機，那麼後續就您的瞭解，這種檢查是檢查完就過關，還是其實在他們檢查之後如果發現有什麼樣的內容，很容易就出不了關或入不了關？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，在檢查之後，他們如果有發現你聯繫的對象或是你儲存的、時常閱讀的文章裡面，譬如說有親西藏、支持香港或是對維吾爾、新疆的人權比較關切，我相信他們後續一定會有一些處理。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["柯副局長承亨：他們會有一些處理，所以風險非常高。跟委員報告，事實上，從去年他們修訂反間諜法跟制定保守國家秘密法、反滲透法之後風險就很高，坦白講，在他們還沒有訂這些規定之前，很多到大陸去的國人跟外國人所帶的手機、平板一樣被檢查，以前沒有法律規定，他們現在把它法制化而已。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以言下之意是，那就變成如果中國現在要求的是，他們在4月28號開放中國的團客到馬祖之後，接下來包括在野黨的委員有到中國去，也極力的要求臺灣要全面開放團客到中國去，那麼這個部分的安全事項或者是對於國人的警示，或者是我們自己在國安的掌握上面，請問國安局現在有沒有做一些更進一步的瞭解？因為我們都希望開開心心的出門、平平安安的回家，但是如果現在多了這條法規，就如同你所說的，已經法制化了，那會不會有可能當我們的國人團體到了中國去之後，暴露在更高的風險之下？我在3月21號質詢的時候特別提醒的就是，比較多國人會以自由行的方式前往香港，所以當時局長是直接說去香港整體的危險警示是往上拉升的。那麼現在如果在野黨要求我們要全面開放的時候，對於這些中國所設下的國安規定，你們有沒有評估？有沒有給交通、觀光相關單位一些建言？你們的建議又是什麼？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，這個風險是絕對加高的，我引用香港特首李家超的一句話就好，在香港的國安法通過之後，有議員問他，如果家裡有以前的蘋果日報，會不會違法？他說違反國安法。就是連你蒐集一些以前看過的報紙，只要他們認為你支持反送中，都違反國安法。更何況我們有那麼多國人進去，他們看到你平常聯繫的對象，還有你時常去看的網頁、網站……"],["林委員楚茵：他們所禁止的網頁、網站。"],["柯副局長承亨：這些都是支援民主、人權理念的，他們很容易就找個理由把你扣下來，以國安法來辦。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以言下之意就是這些危險係數都是因為隨著中國的國安法以及香港的基本法第二十三條而升高了。因為時間有限，今天時間比較寶貴，如果現在真的打算要全面解除團客進入中國的禁令，國安局可不可以給我所有跟國安相關的報告跟評估？"],["柯副局長承亨：好，我們再提供給委員。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["柯副局長承亨：謝謝。"],["主席（洪委員申翰代）：下一位請王定宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請國安局柯副局長來柯副局長請"},{"start":11.298,"end":29.609,"text":"國人好副局長好今年的3月21號的時候我曾經質詢過蔡局長當時是有關於就是說國人現在前往香港旅行的時候是不是風險增加因為當時我們討論到的是香港實施了所謂的23條喔不知道"},{"start":30.629,"end":51.061,"text":"副局長早上有沒有看到這一則自由時報的最新新聞就是中國4月26號有一個國安新規提前實施那麼國人現在到中國去的話如果你有帶手機筆電可能都需要小心一點隨時可能被抽查我先請問這個你們有收到這個訊息嗎有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":55.123,"end":74.042,"text":"各位委員報告我有看到這則訊息因為它規定本來是7月1號開始實施但是目前據一些民眾反映在不同的城市已經它的平板跟手機已經被抽檢了好比如說哪些城市目前你收到的訊息"},{"start":75.06,"end":83.767,"text":"附件2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算附件2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算附件2（三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算附件2（三（"},{"start":103.41,"end":118.898,"text":"我跟委員報告23條是在香港但是他國安新規這些行政程序的一些加強檢查的是全國性而且他對境外人士事實上都有等於擴大的一個範圍"},{"start":120.839,"end":141.727,"text":"言下之意就是說事實上也不是只有臺灣人啦等於是說全世界的這個旅客進入中國現在只要7月1號他們實施的這個所謂中國國安部的條規條40條的規定那就是國家安全機關可以依照各可以針對個人的組織個人或組織的電子設備來進行盤查而且"},{"start":147.609,"end":164.915,"text":"是沒有理由的盤查只要他認為影響到國安那麼言下之意是說接下來只要他們認為需要檢查的個案就會拿走手機那麼後續就您所了解的話這種檢查是檢查完就過關還是其實他檢查之後他發現有什麼樣的內容很容易就出不了關或入不了關跟委員報告"},{"start":176.499,"end":184.182,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":205.374,"end":229.612,"text":"從去年他修訂反間諜法跟制定保守國家秘密法反滲透法這些之後風險就很高坦白講他還沒有訂這些規定之前國人跟外國人很多到大陸去手機平板一樣被檢查以前沒有法律規定他現在把它法治化而已所以言下之意是那麼變成是如果現在"},{"start":230.493,"end":253.033,"text":"中國現在要求的是他們在4月28號開放中國的團客到馬祖之後接下來包括在野黨的委員有到中國去也極力的要求台灣要全面開放團客到中國去那麼這個部分的安全事項或者是對於國人的警示或者是我們自己在國安的掌握上面"},{"start":254.362,"end":265.01,"text":"請問國安局現在有沒有做一些更進一步的了解因為就是這樣喔我們都希望開開心心的出門平平安安的回家但是如果現在多了這條法規就如同你所說的法制化了那它會不會有可能當我們的國人團體到了中國去之後暴露更高的風險"},{"start":274.096,"end":289.439,"text":"當時3月21號我在質詢的時候我特別提醒的是說香港是比較多國人會以自由行的方式去前往的所以當時局長是直接說去香港整體的危險警示是往上拉升的那麼現在如果說在野黨要求我們要全面開放的時候這些中國所設下的國安規定你們有沒有評估有沒有給予交通跟觀光相關的單位一些建言那麼你們的建議又是什麼"},{"start":302.23,"end":303.134,"text":"跟委員報告這個風險是絕對加高的"},{"start":308.475,"end":334.767,"text":"我個人我引用香港特首李家超的一句話就好香港的國安法通過之後有議員問他如果家裡有以前的蘋果日報會不會違反他說違反國安法就是連你以前看的一些收集的一些報紙只要他認為你支持反送中的都違反國安法更何況說我們那麼多國人進去他看到你平常聯繫的對象還有你時常一些"},{"start":335.627,"end":362.243,"text":"所看的網頁、他們所禁止的網頁、網站這些都是支援民主人權理念的這些他很容易就找個理由就把你扣下來以國安法來辦所以言下之意這些危險係數都是因為隨著中國的國安法以及香港的基本法第23條都升高的因為時間有限今天時間比較寶貴我希望國安局這邊給我一份就是如果現在真的要打算全面解決"},{"start":363.103,"end":373.088,"text":"就是全面的解除團客進入中國的時候的相關的國安的你們的所有的報告跟評估可不可以給我一份好我們再提供給委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71dcf344fce7c8265dbf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac7ee1ded52cbdf85935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:00:53 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3310，我們不能沾沾自喜。我們來看一下國外的例子，華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點，我們臺灣也有國立臺灣歷史博物館的案例，導入智慧科技輔助人力管理，用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏文物，取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作，而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕、有沒有問題，大幅的縮短人力，我想請教一下院長，能不能再一次的確認？我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI，不只保存文化，也要來做訓練館藏盤點的技術？能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議，一個月內將評估報告以書面提供給本席？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我依照委員意見來辦理。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，我想我們一起努力。另外，文物修護人力不足的問題，我們看過了，編制內的文物修護人力只有12人，12人！在座的大家都沒有聽錯，以70萬件的管藏來計算，等於每個修護人力要處理五萬八千多件的文物修護，文物修護還有很多的部分，包括預防性保存、修護、科學方法分析等等，我們已經算過了，以目前的修護量能，事實上要花930年才能把館藏文物修護一遍。我們特別跟教育部調了資料，近三年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人，我們再看一次這個員額，能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力，可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：博物館的文物保存、維護，它有一個邏輯，並不是每年給它翻出來看一次，因為基本上，譬如限展文物，我們就是要讓它睡三年、三年都要保持在一個非常穩定的階段，所以……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起！院長，我時間有限，我打斷你。負面的理由，我們都理解，但是問題我們要解決，不是只是把困難說出來，不然這些文物還是持續在老化、我們修護人力還是持續的不足，我想這不是我們負責任的態度。我們繼續再來關注一下，剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題，結果我們來看，故宮修護的計畫裡頭，在新故宮計畫裡面，南院要用46億來興建國寶館，這個國寶館還要一邊修護，一邊給大家看，我想確認一下，那天參訪的時候，院長也說國寶館只編列興建建物的預算，裡面可能還沒有硬體，甚至可能還沒有修護的額外人力，我想確認一下，裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡？是不是還沒有著落？確認一下，院長能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為新故宮計畫基本上是一個營建經費……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有編列？現在有沒有國寶館的硬體、軟體、人力的預算，有還是沒有？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本的設備……"],["葛委員如鈞：116年要開了，115年要完工。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本的設備是沒有問題，但是專業的修護設備不能在這個時候買，這個時候買，等到我們蓋好之後，它已經又過了幾年了。"],["葛委員如鈞：那人力呢？人力的訓練、人力的培育呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：人力的部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：多兩位，是不是？這是比「YA」，是說一定夠？還是多兩位，還是多20位？"],["蕭院長宗煌：多兩位。人力的部分，我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作，讓他們在學校之後第二階段的延伸、實務訓練，幫故宮也幫忙這些研究所畢業的學生有……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝院長，我時間有限。我希望院長是不是可以當場表示我們會有修正計畫，這個人力講出來都是不合理的啦！我們有沒有修正的計畫，還是我們乾脆要停工，想清楚國寶館到底有沒有足夠的規劃，再進行復工？"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員，我們會做一個人力的總盤點，然後在修護的人力儘量想辦法……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們再來問一下院長，整建之後，北院將增加多少展示空間？大家都想看文物啊！27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點。"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮北院整修之後，會有……"],["葛委員如鈞：49億元啊！我們會提供多少新的展示空間？"],["蕭院長宗煌：北院會增加2,000平方米的空間。"],["葛委員如鈞：2,000平方米是不是？2,000平方米，我們再來評估一下夠不夠。現在文件的展示率，事實上只有0.1%，各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%，我們已經算過了，如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講，要1,000年才能全部展出一輪，真的是可能有一些藏品，我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到，千年等一回，這樣的比例，不管是跟臺灣的，還是跟全世界的比較起來，真的都是倒數全球。我想這不是我們想要看到的，因為大家到故宮就是要看展品，2,000坪的增加到底夠不夠？我們增加更多的可能是咖啡廳、玻璃亭，這真的是我們民眾要的嗎？我想請教一下，到底這個增建計畫的資料，你們是公布在哪裡啊？我們現在看到的這個資料，我們是怎麼樣？我們看到有什麼空間模擬動畫、有什麼視覺的圖，在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段，還沒有定案，沒有定案的……"],["葛委員如鈞：民眾都不用知道嗎？民眾非常關心啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有定案的東西po出來，容易照成誤導……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們竟然還要自己去買雜誌喔！雜誌的第49頁有一個QR code，QR code查進去有這些東西，這是怎麼樣？是報導獨家嗎？還是要促銷這個雜誌？我相信都不是啊！能不能請院長今天質詢以後，三天內將整建計畫的相關資訊放上官網，並且建立專區，讓各界可以早一點來提供建議？可不可以這樣做？"],["蕭院長宗煌：容我詢問我們副座，因為他管工程……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們整建，民眾有權知道、有權關心吧？還是要去買雜誌才能知道，還要掃碼？"],["黃副院長永泰：我們可以整理之後提供。"],["葛委員如鈞：上網好不好？上到故宮官網。我們今天還是非常友善的提醒院長，最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放，各界對於成果褒貶不一，提出很多的質詢，事實上，各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回復，甚至是做一些未來穿越時空的確認，其實可以用VR跟AR來高解析度的重現巴黎聖母院的細節，其實民眾就有機會可以用一支手機或者一個虛擬實境的頭盔先預覽我們要花49億整修的北院的計畫，國寶館也可以讓大家體驗一下，請院長利用VR、AR虛擬實境的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌，我覺得國寶館都可以考慮，能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議，並將研議結果於一個月內以書面提供給本席，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告一下，我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段……"],["葛委員如鈞：還沒確定啦！所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃亭嘛，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，因為不可能讓建築師把他們通通弄出來，因為它有一個審議程序，審議程序通過以後，同意這樣的……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以一個月還不夠？"],["蕭院長宗煌：一年，因為他要做細部設計，你不能叫建築師在三個月裡把圖畫出來……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，再給我30秒。我們設計完，到時候大家民眾都不滿意，覺得這空間不夠，是不是就改變不了了？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議，審議完了之後還要進到都發局建築設計……"],["葛委員如鈞：那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家？讓大家可以用怎麼樣的方式來預覽？減少爭議嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：起碼一年，因為我不能用一個虛擬的說未來博物館蓋起來是這個樣子，因為這是跟建築師的一個合約關係……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想各國都在用更多的方法來拉近跟民眾的距離，來確保這些東西符合大家的期待……"],["蕭院長宗煌：不能以一個虛擬的博物館來作為真正博物館……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長，召委再給我20秒。這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動，從文物保存跟修復的觀點來看，有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的，人類扮演更加重要的角色，未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作，相輔相成，我們一起來努力，讓資源運用效率最大化，也要讓人力做合理、妥善的安排，讓故宮進入一個更好的狀態，好嗎？謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員，委員是這方面的專家，我們會再跟委員請教。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員、謝謝院長。接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.42471875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.96471875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.48784375,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.53846875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.555343750000002,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.79159375,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.17784375000001,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.37971875000001,"end":94.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.72971875,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.35784375,"end":120.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.15096875,"end":96.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.90659375000001,"end":126.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.81284375000001,"end":148.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.23159375,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.06596875,"end":157.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.56659375,"end":217.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.57346875000002,"end":202.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.91721875000002,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.44846875000002,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.53471875,"end":315.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.32346875,"end":356.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.65034375000005,"end":362.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.45534375,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.52284375000005,"end":362.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.14721875000004,"end":378.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.44909375000003,"end":376.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.28409375,"end":433.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.31784375,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.30909375000005,"end":436.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.93346875000003,"end":435.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.89534375000005,"end":436.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.80659375000005,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.53596875000005,"end":447.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.28596875000005,"end":464.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.84284375000004,"end":449.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.74971875000006,"end":451.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.16971875,"end":465.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.15659375,"end":465.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.17346875000004,"end":465.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.25784375,"end":465.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.86534375,"end":467.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.00034375,"end":466.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.83971875000003,"end":471.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.90721875,"end":470.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.85596875000005,"end":472.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.68284375,"end":472.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.73346875000004,"end":492.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.72659375,"end":505.79159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.21346875000006,"end":511.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.85409375000006,"end":515.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.1697187500001,"end":521.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.89471875,"end":521.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.87346875,"end":525.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.7803437499999,"end":527.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.5647187500001,"end":526.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.0034687500001,"end":530.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.56409375,"end":532.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.9265937499999,"end":595.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.4609687500001,"end":603.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.4265937499999,"end":602.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.6159687500001,"end":625.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.6328437500001,"end":605.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.1472187500001,"end":606.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.38034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3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點"},{"start":274.207,"end":296.185,"text":"我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能"},{"start":297.006,"end":311.552,"text":"再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席"},{"start":313.701,"end":339.931,"text":"我依照委員意見來辦理好 謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了"},{"start":340.971,"end":362.357,"text":"事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以"},{"start":363.717,"end":376.444,"text":"博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段"},{"start":378.365,"end":397.094,"text":"我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁"},{"start":398.695,"end":400.356,"text":"剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看"},{"start":417.071,"end":433.168,"text":"那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長"},{"start":434.349,"end":449.197,"text":"能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工"},{"start":451.798,"end":452.398,"text":"人力的培育呢?"},{"start":452.398,"end":452.678,"text":"多兩位是不是?"},{"start":473.251,"end":485.881,"text":"人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些"},{"start":489.763,"end":491.484,"text":"好 我們再來問一下院長整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間"},{"start":516.243,"end":542.468,"text":"我們大家都想看文物阿27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點阿故宮北院整修之後49億元阿我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%"},{"start":544.088,"end":561.089,"text":"我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來"},{"start":561.61,"end":577.399,"text":"真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料"},{"start":587.364,"end":595.826,"text":"我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊"},{"start":596.448,"end":625.697,"text":"因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QR codeQR code查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?"},{"start":626.775,"end":628.841,"text":"可以嗎?因為他管工程"},{"start":634.704,"end":662.572,"text":"我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆"},{"start":663.192,"end":663.292,"text":"主席"},{"start":682.503,"end":685.285,"text":"請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。"},{"start":699.375,"end":721.161,"text":"已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃體嘛對不對不可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠"},{"start":723.888,"end":748.741,"text":"一年因為他要做細部設計你不能叫建築師說三個月以內把圖畫出然後一個月設 對不起再給我30秒那我們設計完到之後我們都大家民眾都不滿意覺得這空間不夠跟委員報告一下設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議審議完了之後還要進到那個杜花吉建築設計那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家"},{"start":749.481,"end":750.923,"text":"我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動"},{"start":775.784,"end":797.365,"text":"從文物保存跟秀物的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎 謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教好 謝謝葛如鈞"}]}},{"id":"152290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7106cf072e4f5a0d0a827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7daeb2ade180e39b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:58:40 - 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情好好的討論好讓大家可以共同來面對這事情把台灣的制度定好不要連監督機關的相關的領取的費用"},{"start":165.896,"end":166.076,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71402a7785856a556e827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7da132672c464fa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"09:50:57 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高官這樣做到要死 服務到要死 但是不是在那裡我們鼓勵一下 這個"},{"start":117.698,"end":141.934,"text":"國民代表這個收金我最痛脆,我跟你認為,我又聽回去,為什麼?有說過這件事是不是我又再次提出,跟前年差不多覺得怎麼樣剛好,你就對此說我不要要求多少,我照您的收金一樣,一個半月,一個半月就是"},{"start":144.295,"end":155.958,"text":"7萬5所以本身也提這個提案草案的選擇可以在里長提出7萬5的獎金再來做你的選擇我也來做第一次我做過議員說實在的一個專業的議員真的說都沒有做什麼什麼 只要服務的選擇真的"},{"start":168.261,"end":168.281,"text":"議員．審查"},{"start":198.229,"end":198.555,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"152273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf711a68882b7976ce50827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac79008a6a2d20818995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:12:24 - 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定會來啊!那至於呢﹖是不是要幾問幾答﹖這個人們為先你當然清楚啊!"},{"start":243.956,"end":268.811,"text":"那中間要有什麼?五年以後行政院長兩個禮拜要被尋了。你把國家整個憲制打亂掉。你要修總統要先來。那你弄出一個違憲版本難道不被實現嗎?這個是要製造憲政衝突嘛。主要執政嘛。然後要用不斷某些攻擊嘛。開直播嘛。那這個黨能靠我嗎?可以這樣搞嗎?"},{"start":269.972,"end":282.075,"text":"各位,難道你從今往後選來,你是不是要拚到西班牙人,拚到裡面,你來這裡,那我補護行,你等於是你房間中的跨國,不用指揮了,有需要如此嗎?就算胡云旗就在那裏面,你們全部"},{"start":290.359,"end":291.239,"text":"好 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14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":359,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:00:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:54:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時54分）請國安局副局長。"],["主席：請柯副局長。"],["柯副局長承亨：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長早。你應該知道俄羅斯在入侵烏克蘭之後，接受到了多少的制裁，目前你覺得各個國家總共是幾項制裁？"],["柯副局長承亨：從目前所理解的各種資訊，譬如各國支援給烏克蘭的一些武器裝備，俄羅斯有做一些展示出來……"],["陳委員冠廷：抱歉，你可能不太理解我的問題，我是說國際間有給俄羅斯什麼樣的制裁？"],["柯副局長承亨：制裁……"],["陳委員冠廷：到目前為止，大概有一萬六千五百多項制裁，包含對它外匯儲備上面的凍結有3,500億美金左右，還有包含SWIFT國際的清算系統，有些都不讓它使用，所以這對俄羅斯的金融當然是有很大的一個影響。我想請教副局長，最近中國有大量在購買黃金的情況，應該也不是最近，已經有一段時間了。根據世界黃金理事會的資訊，從2022年10月開始他們持續地大量購買黃金，已經到達了2,262噸的新高，副局長是否有注意到這個狀況？你覺得這是不是一個危險的風險評估在升高？因為當它做這個準備的時候，它就是從俄羅斯那邊學到了，它知道他們會對它的外匯做制裁，國際各個國家都會，但它如果用黃金的話，我們區域安全狀況的風險是不是有提高？"],["柯副局長承亨：感謝委員的指導，的確從俄烏戰爭，俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭之後，中共也不斷在看國際上怎麼對俄羅斯制裁，還有在俄烏作戰攻防的過程當中，中共也在學習，譬如在俄羅斯受到的制裁裡面，假設未來中共對有些方面沒辦法像俄羅斯有那麼強的一個因應能力，譬如俄羅斯在糧食、能源、礦產等各方面，有很多自給自足的實力。現在國際上對俄羅斯的制裁，最大的問題是，有一些國家事實上還是不斷地從俄羅斯購買石油、天然氣，所以我們可以看得出來俄羅斯雖然在作戰，而且受到制裁，但是它的經濟發展事實上還是不斷地在成長，還有它的軍工產業重建、復甦的能量相當強。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長，我想這些都是我們觀察到的現象，特別是它為什麼能夠重建它的軍工產業？當然是中國的支援，不管是軍事支援、間接支援，都不斷地在提供俄羅斯戰爭的系統持續下去，不然這樣子的制裁其實是非常全面的。也就是說，我們可以從中學到，儘管俄羅斯面對這麼多的制裁，它還是獲得來自中國、來自北韓、來自伊朗的支援，那我們也必須要預作準備，包含他們過去在堡壘化他們的國家，就是已經在準備了，在對烏克蘭侵略之前就已經在準備了。所謂堡壘化包含你剛剛所有提到的礦產資源等等，還有包含跟中國之間的關係都有預先準備，如果這已經是一個事先就知道的命題，國安局必須要把所有資訊，包含現在哪些是對俄羅斯有效的制裁，哪些是沒有用的制裁，全部統整之後必須完整地……你們當然有自己的國安會報，然後統整給國防部、給經濟部、給財政部，因為我們必須在今天嚇阻明天的戰爭嘛，所以我們今天有得到這些資訊是非常重要的。","中國現在很明顯地是在學習俄羅斯怎麼樣因應西方國家制裁的方法，這是在戰略方面，他們要透過黃金，避免自己受美元的制裁，包含他們對各種其他外匯的準備，不是以美金為主，也開始在大量地釋放美債，我們都可以看出這個信息是不斷地在提高的。所以風險的溝通非常重要，包含國防部、外交部，我們不能夠跟大家說一切都在掌控之下，我們能夠掌控的當然要全力去掌控，但是有很多敵方也在進化的部分，我們也必須要把這些訊息跟所有的國民講，立法院就是一個溝通的管道。","剛才你談到俄羅斯，我們也談到中國，中俄的合作，美國情報總監海恩斯已經在他的聽證會上面示警，中國跟俄羅斯開始在臺灣問題上進行軍事演練，他們也希望在臺灣的問題上面有所合作。過去俄羅斯對中國當然是有地緣政治上面的競爭，還有與日本之間的北方四島等等的關係。我想請教，俄羅斯跟中國之間這樣子的合作，這就是給我們另外一個話語權跟日本加強合作，因為很明顯地，中俄之間合作之後，包含在北方四島，他們對日本的壓力是怎麼樣，對臺灣的壓力是怎麼樣，這個部分的情資有沒有掌握到？因為我必須要從美國的情報總監海恩斯那裡才聽得到類似這樣的事情。副局長，你怎麼看待這樣的合作？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，當然，日俄關係隨著俄烏戰爭之後的確有變化，包括俄羅斯以前跟日本的一些對話也都被取消，我們也會加強跟周邊國家、跟理念相同的國家在安全議題上有更多的對話跟合作。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝副局長，我講這件事情的主要原因是，包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作，在烏克蘭上面的這些援助，我必須要強調，現在烏克蘭的局勢，就是我們是要在那邊deter，在烏克蘭成功地勝利之後，才能夠讓中俄知道，這樣子的合作方式在烏克蘭是失敗的，所以不要在臺海重演，這也是我們希望在立法院的殿堂來跟所有民眾提供這樣的資訊的原因。謝謝。"],["柯副局長承亨：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳冠廷委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.17409375,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.52284375,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.562843750000003,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.95909375,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.90346875,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.37909375,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.196593750000005,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.95159375,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.58784375,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.99721875,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.34659375000001,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.50221875000001,"end":122.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.13409375,"end":123.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.89346875000001,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.91346875000002,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.05971875,"end":144.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.70034375,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.30346875,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.16409375,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.20159375,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.90909375,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.37721875,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.74409375000002,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.56659375,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.85596875000002,"end":263.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.44534375,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.56284375,"end":310.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.83471875000004,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.93596875000003,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.03721875,"end":331.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.42659375,"end":357.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.00471875,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.30846875000003,"end":358.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.96221875000003,"end":359.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.70471875000004,"end":359.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.729,"end":19.393,"text":"國安局副局長你應該知道俄羅斯在入侵烏克蘭之後接受到多少制裁?目前你覺得是幾項制裁?"},{"start":26.573,"end":39.269,"text":"就是他從目前所理解的各種比如說各國支援給烏克蘭的一些武器裝備那俄羅斯有做一些展示出來"},{"start":41.093,"end":54.354,"text":"基本上 抱歉你可能不太理解我的問題我說國際間給俄羅斯有什麼樣的制裁到目前為止大概有16500多項制裁那包含對他外匯儲備上面的凍結3500億美金左右"},{"start":56.256,"end":57.197,"text":"2、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":76.027,"end":100.877,"text":"他們持續的大量購買黃金那已經到達了2262噸的新高副局長是否有注意到這個狀況你覺得這是不是一個危險、風險的評估在升高因為當他做這個準備的時候他就是從俄羅斯那邊有學到了他知道他會對他們的外匯做這個制裁各個國際都會但是他如果用黃金的話是不是有一個我們的安全的狀況此區域的安全狀況是不是有風險的提高"},{"start":101.958,"end":122.039,"text":"感謝委員的指導的確從俄烏戰爭俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭之後事實上中共也不斷的在看就是國際上對俄羅斯怎麼的制裁還有在俄烏作戰攻防的過程當中中共也在學習譬如說俄羅斯受到的制裁裡面未來假設中共"},{"start":123.171,"end":138.829,"text":"有些他沒辦法像俄羅斯有那麼強的一個因應的一個能力比如說俄羅斯對糧食、能源、礦產各方面他有很多他自給自足的實力那現在國際上對俄羅斯的制裁最大的問題就是說"},{"start":140.134,"end":161.942,"text":"有一些國家事實上還是不斷地從俄羅斯購買石油天然氣所以事實上我們可以看出俄羅斯雖然在作戰而且受到制裁但是他的經濟的發展事實上還是不斷地在做成長還有他的軍工產業就是重建復甦的能量相當強相當強"},{"start":163.723,"end":185.837,"text":"部長我想這些都是我們觀察到的現象特別是說他為什麼能夠重建他的軍工產業當然是中國的資源不管是軍事資源、間接資源都不斷的在提供這個俄羅斯的戰爭的系統持續在下去不然這樣子的制裁其實是非常全面的也就是說我們可以從中學到說如果俄羅斯儘管在面對這麼多的制裁他還是"},{"start":186.778,"end":207.531,"text":"面臨這樣子的這種來自中國的這種資源來自北韓來自伊朗的話那我們也必須要預作準備包含他們過去在堡壘化他們的國家已經就是在準備在對烏克蘭侵略之前就已經在準備準備堡壘化所有的包含你剛剛提到的礦場資源等等還有包含跟中國之間的關係都預先準備如果這已經是一個事先就知道的命題"},{"start":208.431,"end":224.53,"text":"國安局必須要把他所有現在俄羅斯哪些是有效的制裁哪些沒有用的制裁全部統整之後必須完整的你們當然有自己的國安匯報然後統整給國防部給經濟部給財政部因為這些我們必須在今天嚇阻明天的戰爭"},{"start":225.191,"end":254.577,"text":"所以我們今天有得到這些資訊是非常重要的中國現在很明顯的是在學習俄羅斯怎麼樣因應西方國家制裁的方法這是在戰略方面嘛他們要透過黃金避免自己受美元的制裁嘛包含他們各種這種在其他的這種外匯的這種準備不是以美金為主開始在大量的在釋放出這個美債我們都會看出這個信息是不斷的在提高的所以風險的溝通非常重要我們包含國防部包含外交部我們不能夠跟大家說一切都在掌控之下"},{"start":255.882,"end":263.051,"text":"我們能夠掌控的當然權利去掌控但是有很多地方也在進化的部分我們必須要把這些訊息跟所有的國民講"},{"start":264.502,"end":292.698,"text":"在立法院就是一個溝通的管道剛才你談到俄羅斯我們也談到中國中俄的合作情報總監美國情報總監海恩斯已經在他的聽證會上面有示警中國跟俄羅斯開始在台灣問題的進行軍事演練那他們也希望在台灣問題上面的合作那過去俄羅斯對中國當然是有地緣政治上面的競爭那還有與日本之間的他北方的四島的根本關係那我想請教這樣子的俄羅斯跟中國之間的這樣子的合作這就是給我們另外一個話語權跟日本加強合作"},{"start":293.058,"end":310.265,"text":"因為很明顯的中俄之間會在中俄之間合作之後．包含在北方四島．他們對日本的壓力是怎麼樣．對台灣的壓力是怎麼樣．這個部分的情節有沒有掌握到．因為我必須要從美國的情報總監海恩斯上面．才聽到類似這樣的事情．副局長你怎麼看待這樣的合作．"},{"start":311.465,"end":328.575,"text":"各位委員報告當然日俄關係隨著二五戰爭之後的確有變化然後包括俄羅斯以前跟日本的一些對話也都被取消那我們也會加強跟周邊國家跟理念相同的國家在安全議題上"},{"start":329.495,"end":347.451,"text":"有更多的對話．有更多的對話．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．主要是在講這件事情的原因就是說．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．包含俄羅斯跟中國的合作．"},{"start":357.079,"end":358.021,"text":"好,謝謝陳冠廷委員,各位請回。"}]}},{"id":"152269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71409e6e7b921ef8b9f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac7f2803594d81e3c565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:51:23 - 09:58:43","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":440,"end_time":"2024-05-08T09:58:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:51:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時51分）謝謝主席。請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長好，部長辛苦了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，關於蛋的事情我還是要提一下，最早的原因還是起源於當時的禽流感。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以導致當時候臺灣的蛋的問題，甚至很多人買不到蛋、蛋的價格高漲，最後甚至有人在推波助瀾，整個導致恐慌。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以政府才開始去引進，因為短時間內國內要產生這麼多蛋也不夠，所以才會有引進進口蛋這樣的事情，是吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以其實在政策上面是穩定住了國內的蛋的供應，以及穩定了蛋的價格，讓人民因為這樣，包括能夠吃得到蛋，同時間也能夠用比較合理的價格來買到蛋，所以整個政策上是這樣達成的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得，事後來看，過程中有些部分怎麼樣能夠讓國家做得更精簡，這個當然是可以去檢討，但是不要去模糊掉原來的政策目的，原先最早最早的政策目的是要解決掉當時禽流感後導致的，甚至當時媒體報導一副好像已經整個恐慌了一樣，然後大家在搶蛋，價格一直飆漲，也買不到蛋，那已經形成一個社會上很嚴重的現象，政府當然有責任要去穩定住，花一些經費來穩定住，本來就是一件重要的事情，所以我覺得部長還是要把這些事實不斷地講清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：非常謝謝委員，我也一直強調當初進口雞蛋，有它背後必須要去穩定當下的雞蛋供應量，後續因為雞蛋的庫存本身，我們都算過了，每一天大概每一個人多少，事實上，我們進口的雞蛋的量，大概只有一個禮拜到兩個禮拜的份。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以它本身不是我們進口了超高的量去處理，當然後續整個進口雞蛋因為錯誤的報導，造成民眾的疑慮以後，那個才開始去累積。第二個部分，我們也深刻檢討在整個處理過程中，我們的畜產會，包括我們農業部的督導，的確有很多改善的空間，這個部分我想我們也會更精進地去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想不論哪一黨執政，都會遇到類似這樣的問題，那應該是要去讓農業部能夠用專業的方式處理，如果又淪為這種攻擊式的話，未來會讓所有遇到這樣事情再發生的時候，更難去做出一個正確的決定，我認為那個絕對不是臺灣的好事，以此來跟農業部互勉。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，今天談到農產品交易的部分，我先問一下，這幾年來常發生很多境外的一些假消息，特別是一些媒體報導的時候去講到，包括臺美的豬肉有瘦肉精的問題，甚至點名到新東陽、黑橋牌等等這些，一段時間就會出來一次，其實這樣的問題要去做一些遏止，就是從境外一些媒體不斷進來干擾到我們的豬肉安全，甚至豬肉市場的部分，我認為應該要去正視這個問題。我再問一下部長，這三年來，對於影響農產品交易價格的謠言跟不實訊息，有沒有開罰過？"],["陳代理部長駿季：到目前為止是沒有開罰過。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，為什麼沒有開罰？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為它實際上就是相關的證據取得，特別剛才您講到的黑橋牌本身，相對的一定要去找到那個源頭，因為我們會送給檢調單位去查處，但是後面在查處的過程中就沒有辦法去確定是哪一個人放出了這樣的假訊息，所以會造成一些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，不止黑橋牌，包括火龍果、包括雞蛋……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，都是，雞蛋也是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至柚子都有。"],["陳代理部長駿季：文旦也有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，文旦也有，所以說這些都有狀況，農業部有沒有去調查開罰過？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們有去調查，但是我們有在調查的部分，有一部分移送給檢調單位，後續去查的話，因為沒有查到具體的源頭的時候，就沒有辦法去做後續的處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今天就算我們將罰則提高了，但如果永遠都開罰不出來的話，提高再多也沒有用啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，所以我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：怎麼樣有效地去對這些嚇阻？開罰的目的是要嚇阻這些不實的交易訊息，影響到農產品的價格。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那怎麼去嚇阻？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想一個嚇阻的方法就是，第一個，罰款，第二個，刑法第二百五十一條裡面也有相關的刑責。但是我覺得農業部該做的就是怎麼樣去讓這樣子的假訊息能夠掌握它的源頭，因為掌握到它源頭釋放者的時候，後續的調查會比較精準。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果依現行我們只是把它提高罰則，但一樣查不到的話，一樣罰不下去啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我瞭解，所以我針對這個部分也跟農業部裡面的同仁討論，就是後續當有這樣子一個謠言一開始起來的時候，我們當下就要去追查，而不是等到這個謠言擴散了以後，擴散了以後，它的人數眾多，就比較不容易查，所以這個部分，我們會更精準的打擊。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這個是不是要再研擬更好的一些方法，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為它一旦散播出去，對農產品的價格就產生相當大的影響。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個時代又是網路的時代，而且又是大量散播的時代，跟以前已經不一樣了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我認為現代的政府要能夠因應現在，只要有少數不肖人惡意製造假訊息，破壞價格的話，後來擴散出來的問題就非常嚴重。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望農業部裡面去研議一下，除了罰則提高以外，應該要有更有效的一些方法……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們一定會朝這個方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：至少要能夠開罰得出來。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就像以前的黃牛問題，一些文藝演唱會的票，對於黃牛，如果有開罰成功，那嚇阻的效果就出現、就有效果。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：同樣的，我也認為應該要努力去開罰出來，就是對於惡意散播不實訊息，然後造成農產品價格的混亂，這些部分應該要給予開罰，有開罰成功了之後，後面才會產生相關的嚇阻力。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，希望農業部審慎因應。","最後一個小小的問題就是獼猴的部分，獼猴對很多農產品也都產生相當的影響，我知道農業部有編了一些經費給地方政府，有些地方做得效果不錯，有些效果不是那麼好，我也希望農業部整體思考，讓獼猴這個問題能夠減少對於農產品的影響。"],["陳代理部長駿季：針對獼猴的部分，我們現在也是大家一起想方法，現在在古坑地區有一個示範的方式，就是透過巡守隊的方式，或者透過其他方式，如果有更好的方式，我想農業部一定會去接納、去採行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：由農業部來鼓勵大家，甚至指導地方農業局來做這些方式，有效改善農民的農產品被破壞這件事。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。接下來我們請林岱樺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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但是我覺得農業部該做的就是說怎麼樣去讓這樣子的一個假訊息能夠掌握它的源頭因為掌握到它的源頭釋放者的時候那後續的調查會比較精準"},{"start":299.383,"end":326.569,"text":"那如果一現行我們只是把它提高它的罰則的話你如果一樣查不到的話你一樣罰不下去啊對我我我了解齁所以我才會我就針對這個部分的我也跟農業部裡面的同仁在討論齁就是後續當你有這樣子的一個謠言一開始起來的時候我們就當下就要去追查而不是等到這個謠言擴散了以後那擴散了以後它的人數眾多就比較不容易查所以這個部分我們會更精準的打擊"},{"start":326.929,"end":348.212,"text":"市長這個是不是要再研擬更好的一些方法好不好因為他一旦散播出去對農產品的價格就產生相當大的影響那這個時代又是網路的時代而且又是大量散播的時代跟以前的是已經不一樣了所以我認為其實現在的政府要能夠因應現在的只要有少數的不孝人惡意的去製造假訊息破壞你的價格的話"},{"start":349.013,"end":349.053,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":364.663,"end":381.977,"text":"賴瑞隆的問題的時候一些這個文藝的一些演唱會票黃牛價格若有開發出來成功那嚇阻效果就出現就有效果同樣我也認為應該努力的去開發出來就是對於這些惡意的散播不實的訊息然後造成農產品價格的混亂甚至於這些部分應該要給予"},{"start":383.038,"end":383.778,"text":"賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆"},{"start":410.851,"end":410.871,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71a2e94ba543ae72ccbf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac761765584bb1b6cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:49:49 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你要一個一個公聽會來算第一個4月3號請問民進黨版的國會法案在哪裡"},{"start":115.871,"end":122.698,"text":"在哪裡啊?看不到啊!4月3號的公聽會就只有討論國民黨版的國會改革法案,不是嗎?這第一場,你們先掃一場。4月10號跟4月11號我跟各位說啊,"},{"start":131.209,"end":158.394,"text":"那一天其實民進黨版的還在復一期啦所以有列為所謂的書面參考資料連網路上都沒有我們辦公室有去看網路網路上公告給學者專家都沒有啦書面才附參考資料啦實際上當天討論的也都是國民黨的國會改革法案然後大家來檢討裡面到底好不好可不可以實不實用要不要改"},{"start":159.861,"end":176.574,"text":"民進黨的這麼棒,像剛剛胡思耀講的,好周延啊!我們不管是行為法,不管是這個立法院的職權行使法,不管是議事規則,所有的國會的法案,我們民進黨這麼棒的法案,天下不知乃為其詞啊!那就辦公廳會啊!"},{"start":181.144,"end":207.83,"text":"給天下周知嘛我要問各位啊三場公聽會有這麼難嗎一場專報有這麼難嗎如果你們能夠尊重一個月前的民進黨這一個月三場公聽會一場專報也不就半了嗎那今天大家就來開始審啊我跟各位講我強調還是一句話我要是公平性今天吳宗憲召委尊重民進黨"},{"start":209.392,"end":224.482,"text":"所以我們等到三場公聽會一場專報之後才開始進行的逐條討論逐條審查。那我想請教一下為什麼今天民進黨你就不能夠學習吳宗憲的...抱歉啊主席剛剛他多講三分鐘我要繼續講下去。"},{"start":226.344,"end":250.505,"text":"為什麼不能尊重吳宗憲、趙偉?為什麼不能夠去援用吳宗憲、趙偉對民進黨的體恤跟善意,甚至考量民進黨的主張,要讓社會大眾廣之、公之、周之一起詳細討論呢?在這邊沒有程序正義,這些實質討論不周延啊!你民進黨的啊,不周延嘛!社會溝通不夠嘛!"},{"start":251.366,"end":256.547,"text":"所以我到現在不能理解公聽會有這麼可怕嗎?照民進黨當時的角度來講你為什麼不幹公聽會呢?國民黨?為什麼不要?為什麼不要?為什麼不要?辦了你了,換了你們了,我為什麼要?我為什麼要?辦公聽會就是延宕今天所謂的國會的審查。有這種事情嗎?我跟你講民進黨這種雙標齁我在這邊直接鄭重宣布啦我已經看太多了啦"},{"start":281.459,"end":294.614,"text":"很簡單民進黨標準我就用在民進黨身上以後請你們所有意識規則的主張提出之前想想到一個月後是不是柯建民要打柯建民是不是像柯建民說的那個東西又要回頭回力標打柯建民"},{"start":296.285,"end":313.258,"text":"這邊我的主張很簡單沒有今天不讓民進黨審但是比照國民黨三場公聽會一場專報如果鍾嘉賓、張偉你堅持那兩場公聽會列個參考資料就算已經討論了民進黨版沒有關係那你再加上一場公聽會一場專報"},{"start":315.683,"end":338.006,"text":"國民黨本來是三場公聽會一場專報阿!即便你用你這麼寬鬆的標準,列為參考資料就已經算是討論過了,那也就是你那兩場阿!那請問第三場公聽會在哪裡?那一場專報在哪裡?我沒看到阿!我沒看到阿!不用擔心阿!不用緊張阿!三場一場啦!就這樣子!以上!"}]}},{"id":"152267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7109b82700cefcceb65e31cafebf20a13d36499d1b681a2ac7975c7bd2c0b6c0015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:49:17 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14案。（詳如附件5））","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-18"},"duration":320,"end_time":"2024-05-08T09:54:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:49:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時49分）有請國防部副部長。"],["主席：請柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：黃委員早。"],["黃委員仁：你早。關於無人機反制系統，案由為113年度陸軍司令部第5目項下「無人機反制系統」預算凍結200萬的案子，請問副部長，無人機反制系統的招標是否限制國內廠商參標？如果最後由國外廠商得標或是變成由代理商得標，是不是反而有戳破扶植國內廠商的問題以及所謂的國家隊？過去經濟部有提出4個廠商，第一個就是捷恆科技，第二是創思達科技，第三是創未來科技，第四是雷昇科技，幫國防部做無人機反制系統，所謂的扶植國內廠商是不是最後終告失敗？這個問題是出在什麼原因？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員關切這樣子的一個議題，我想全球在尋求無人機市場的時候，這個市場非常大，在國防自主上來講，我們當然是尋求去除紅色供應鏈為優先考量；第二個，我們必須要考量國內廠商如果在發展上來講，就以委員剛才講的幾家公司來說，我們都去評估過，我們也希望在未來部分，事實上這也牽扯到我們國內無人機發展的未來，我們當然希望能夠以這個為主。但是我們也不放棄，以國外很多新創公司的無人機系統上來講，對於即時能夠支援我們無人機系統上能有所幫助的話，我們也在考量。所以這是要看的，不管是國內、國外，如何做一個平衡來支援我們的作戰部隊，我想這是優先考量，能快速地支援是我們的未來方向。"],["黃委員仁：因為時間因素，我簡短說，就是因為目前所謂的這4家廠商，其實它所研究的每一個效能，它的能量確實是有問題，結果在這4家廠裡面，據我所知道的，也瞭解的，各有不同的見解跟看法，而且所研究出來的，並沒有達到你們陸軍本身的效能，所以陸軍才另起爐灶，真的是浪費公帑。假使這四家廠商又回頭過來參標的話，你們的看法如何？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想陸軍在評估這個的時候是基於時效性的問題，它希望能夠整合這四家公司，能夠提供我們所需要的性能和規格，但這四家公司各有長處，所以我們陸軍在考量的時候，當時因為時間非常短，建案時間非常短，所以雖然各公司都有不同的長處，可是在這裡面來講，我們希望能夠把這個系統做一個整合，將來可能中科院就負責這樣的一個系統整合功能。也就是說，我國國內很多在性能上來講，它是沒有火攻的，事實上中科院有具備這樣的能力，如何把它整併在一個系統上面，這是我們未來要考量的，並不代表它今天沒有達到標準，未來就沒有資格來參標。我們希望鼓勵國內發展的小型無人機能夠達到世界的規格，這個是我們未來的期待，所以陸軍所訂的部分，以時間上來講，它要求的規格非常高，所以在這種情況下，短時間內，這四家公司……"],["黃委員仁：經濟部所提供的所謂的扶植國內廠商的定義，就是希望能夠成立一個國家隊。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["黃委員仁：好，既然這四家經過陸軍本身的檢視，它的每一個廠商，你們已經檢視過了，並不符合。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["黃委員仁：所以如果他們這四家廠商又再回來招標、來參標的話，最後得標的，恐怕會變成一個弊端，所以這個是本席要提醒你的，因為我會關注這個案子，好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，謝謝委員關心，我們也會注意。"],["黃委員仁：麻煩你們審慎。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["黃委員仁：不要浪費公帑。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不會，我們一定在所有把關的過程當中努力，看如何符合我們國軍的需求，同樣地我們也希望廠商能夠達到我們這樣的要求，我想在這方面我們會努力，謝謝委員提醒。"],["黃委員仁：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.18659375,"end":3.2034687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.20221875,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.64346875,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.402843750000002,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.821593750000005,"end":52.664093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.883468750000006,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.69346875,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.90346875,"end":69.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.89346875000001,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.02659375,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.18659375,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.98721875000001,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.21159375000002,"end":146.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.66284375,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.56909375,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.52159375000002,"end":176.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.57721875000001,"end":181.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.40346875,"end":183.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.68159375000002,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.70596875,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.03909375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.57471875000002,"end":192.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.59159375000002,"end":199.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.93221875,"end":253.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.18971875000003,"end":281.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.57659375000003,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.07971875000004,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.15471875000003,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.34346875,"end":297.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.29659375,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.03846875,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.94971875000005,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.24284375,"end":319.94721875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":5.094,"text":"有請我們郭副部長那個 柏 柏副部長啊對好 來黃營早好 早"},{"start":14.969,"end":43.05,"text":"關於無人機反制的系統按由113年度陸軍司令部的第五目向無人機的反制系統預算凍結200萬的一個案子請問我們副部長無人機的反制系統招標是否限制國內廠商的參標如果最後由國外廠商得標或者是變成代理商得標"},{"start":44.051,"end":68.331,"text":"是不是反而戳破扶持這個廠商的一個問題以及所謂的國家隊過去經濟部有提出了四個廠商那第一個就是結恆科技第二是創世達科技第三是創未來科技及雷神"},{"start":70.089,"end":84.766,"text":"雷聲科技給國防部做無人機反制的系統那這個所謂的扶植國內的廠商是不是最後忠告失敗這個問題所在是什麼原因謝謝委員關心這樣子的一個議題我想"},{"start":87.549,"end":108.8,"text":"全球在尋求無人機市場的時候它這個市場非常大那我們在國防自主上來講我們當然是尋求去除紅色供應鏈是唯一優先的考量那第二個我們必須要考量國內的廠商如果在發展上來講就跟委員剛剛講的幾家公司來講我們都去評估過那我們也希望在未來來講事實上這也牽扯到我們國內的無人機發展的未來那我們當然希望能夠以這個為主"},{"start":115.703,"end":143.531,"text":"但是我們也不放棄如果說在國外很多的新創公司的降無人機系統上來講如果對即時能夠支援我們的無人機系統上來講有所幫助的話我們也在考量之內所以這是要看不管是國內國外如何做一個平衡來支援我們的作戰部隊我想這是優先考量快速的支援是我們的未來的方向因為時間因素簡短的就是因為目前"},{"start":144.992,"end":153.38,"text":"這個所謂的這四家廠商其實他所研究的每一個效能他的能量"},{"start":154.974,"end":182.789,"text":"確實是有問題結果在這家廠商裡面據我知道的也了解了各有不同的見解跟看法而且所研究出來並不是達到你們陸軍的本身的這個效能所以陸軍才另起爐燒真的是浪費公帑所以我覺得如果假使"},{"start":183.789,"end":190.178,"text":"重新的自私加工這個廠商又回頭過來了參標參標的話你們的看法如何"},{"start":192.642,"end":217.845,"text":"報告員我想陸軍在評估這個時候他是基於時效性的問題他希望能夠整合這四家公司能夠提供我們所需要的性能和那個規格但這四家公司各有長處所以我們陸軍在考量的時候當時因為時間非常短建築時間非常短所以他雖然各公司都有不同的長處可是在這裡面來講我們是希望說能夠把這個系統做一個整合將來"},{"start":218.826,"end":234.753,"text":"我們可能中科醫院也就負責這樣子的一個系統整合功能也就是說我國內很多在性能上來講他沒有火功的那我事實上中科醫院有具備這樣能力如何把他整併在一個系統上面那這是我們未來考量並不代表說他今天沒有沒有達到他標準未來就沒有資格來參標那這個我們希望鼓勵我們的在國內發展小型無人機能夠達到世界的規格那這個是我們未來期待所以"},{"start":245.577,"end":262.004,"text":"陸軍所定的只是時間上來講要求規格非常高所以在這種情況下又短的時間這四家公司經濟部所提供的所謂的扶持國內的廠商的定義就是因為希望能夠成立一個國家隊"},{"start":264.105,"end":280.893,"text":"那既然這四項裡面又造成了陸軍本身所經過後來他本身的一些每一個廠商你們已經檢視過了並不符合所以如果假使"},{"start":282.114,"end":297.602,"text":"他們在這四家廠商又回來在招標來參標的話恐怕最後最後得標的恐怕會引起了變成一個弊端所以這個是我本席要提醒提醒你"},{"start":298.382,"end":319.619,"text":"因為我會關注這個案子關注這個案子好不好好謝謝委員關心麻煩你們審慎不要浪費公帑不會不會我們一定在所有的把關的過程當中如何符合我們國際需求同樣我們也希望我們廠商能夠達到我們的這樣要求我想在這方面我會努力好謝謝委員提醒好謝謝黃人委員"}]}},{"id":"152266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf715a44ab7cc61df38ff2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac730ded3c40876aedc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:41:57 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09:50:50","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":533,"end_time":"2024-05-08T09:50:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:41:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時42分）謝謝主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。你是少數橫跨520繼續在位置上面的部長，因為今天的解凍案當中，在農業管理與畜牧管理有一個1,000萬這部分，其實跟去年的雞蛋之亂有一些關係，因為剛剛楊瓊瓔委員問得非常的清楚，也非常的深入，所以關於這部分我可能就不再重複問。可是我要特別提到一個點，因為你剛才說這樣子的政策，大概總共要花掉10億嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這是去年的雞蛋之亂，而今年臺灣雞蛋的供需狀況，是不是還會出現缺口，有需要從國外進口的狀態？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想以我們目前的評估是不會的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不會嘛，OK！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為在去年我們把整個雞蛋的產業鏈重組了以後，現在的蛋中雞與蛋雞它的生產效率也提高了，然後每日蛋的產能也提高了，所以我們預估整個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以部長很正式、公開的表示，今年臺灣不會出現缺蛋的狀態，不會再出現去年這樣的一個雞蛋之亂嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，因為你剛剛回應楊瓊瓔委員時特別提到，4月19號的時候，把之前所有的過期蛋全部都銷毀掉了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想問一下，因為你剛剛也回答的非常大聲，你講蛋銷毀了之後……因為我記得在4月17號考察的時候，有特別壓了一個時間，就是4月30號之前，所有的影片必須要上架，請問這個部分我們做到了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為整個影片，我們每一批的影片上架的檔案非常大，所以我們把相關的三個部分，一個是在出庫的部分；一個在運輸的部分；一個是在做堆肥部分的影片，我們有上架，如果有任何希望再看其他日期的可以來申請，因為我們不可能把所有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以就不會再有其他的部分？因為原本我以為是所有的部分都會上架，部長你也回應的很清楚，事實上，我們在5月3號要求的時候，白天其實還沒有，但晚上就上架了，上架慢了3天也就算了，可是當中我發現目前上架所有資料就只有3月11號的那個版本，然後對於整個出庫、銷毀的過程，其實都沒有相關的東西，我們看不到所有的部分。所以我們希望如果農業部能夠做到，要把最新的版本傳上來，如果說你們覺得檔案太大，不把所有的過程傳上來，我也接受，可是我希望最新的東西能夠很清楚，然後讓民眾看到整個的過程，因為我們看到過程當中是沒有聲音、沒有相關盤點的一個細節，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，我們整個錄影沒有錄音，我們是用密錄器的方式。我也同意委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：銷毀是用密錄器的方式錄啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，因為……"],["鄭委員正鈐：為什麼要密錄器的方式錄？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為它是一個監督……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個監督不能夠用公開的方式，用密錄器錄？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我們是用掛在胸前的方式錄，也許用詞可能不是那麼恰當，但是每一個人都知道正在錄影，但是我們並沒有錄音，這第一點。第二點，因為都有第三方的要求，包括地方政府衛生局或者是國稅局，都會去參加這樣一個銷毀的動作，所以我們會選擇一個比較影像的部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分就是仔細把它弄好，因為你剛剛承諾今年不會發生缺蛋的事情，我覺得至少是一個政策性的宣示，這些後續我們希望把它做得更完善。然後讓民眾覺得對於過去這10億錯誤政策，買單的錢不會這麼痛，至少你有負責任的一個作法。","接下來，我想問一個部分，針對動物傳染病防治條例，我們目前如何界定網際網路內容，如果涉及境外應施檢疫物，我們怎麼去判斷這個部分？部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：在網站的部分，我們會去監控相關的網站，第一個，網站如果有疑似使用中國這些圖片的時候，我們第一個就會先懷疑……"],["鄭委員正鈐：只要疑似就要求下架嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，因為我們是根據動物傳染病防治條例，基本上他會PO這樣的一個影片，表示說它是在那個國家的東西，所以我們很有理由就是它是由中國的產品……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，所以你們就用看圖片的方式來做判斷嘛，對不對？部長，接下來我找了3個案例，左邊是在臺灣網路平臺銷售的東西；右邊是大陸淘寶販售的東西，請問這個部分你們認為要不要下架？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你直接回答我就好，因為時間有限，你直接回答我。"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為這個是食品，我們強調是跟動植物防疫、檢疫有關的，所以它本身像雞蛋或其他跟動物的製品有關的，我們才會處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這個東西你不處理的嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，因為我不知道這個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個東西不處理是不是？所以不會下架嘛，不處理就不會下架的意思啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我不知道這個裡面的東西是什麼。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，就是寵物的凍乾──食品，你就看這兩個，部長，你簡單回應我一下，好不好？這個東西你覺得要怎麼處理？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們有它專業的判斷，這個圖片如果……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個要不要下架？"],["陳代理部長駿季：要看產品的來源。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，人家就很清楚提供所有的資料，告訴你來源是臺灣的，結果你們要求人家下架，因為看這圖感覺很像就叫人家下架。部長，再看下一個，這個左邊是臺灣的；右邊是淘寶的，照片完全一樣，你覺得要不要下架？好，部長，你回答不出來，再往下看，另外這個左邊是臺灣的；右邊是大陸的，這個要不要下架？照片完全一樣耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我要跟委員說明，不是中國的產品都不能進來。第一個，它要符合某些產品是禁止由大陸中國進口的部分，這個我們會處理……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以部長我讓你直接做這樣的判斷，因為你們在做處理的時候，就說圖片相似要求人家下架，完全沒有顧慮到廠商生存多麼的不容易，要做生意你以為很容易嗎？我舉這3個案子，第1個案子，就是你們看到圖片相似、疑似，就要求人家直接下架，人家當天提出證明他從臺灣採購的東西，你們完全不認喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，沒有，我跟委員說明不是這樣子，他們提出來以後，我們要去查是不是這樣子的，查完以後……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以是不是要查到了、確定才叫人家下架？你們是第一時間就叫人家下架，部長知道他們怎麼處理嗎？所以我在想現在農業部這麼大、防檢局這麼大，只要它覺得疑似、圖片類似，就要求下架欸！現在如果是廠商惡性競爭的時候，你再看下面這一張，左邊這是臺灣知名品牌，被人家用同樣的照片放在大陸的網站上面，它是不是相似？它是完全一樣喔！如果這樣子的時候，我們直接來你們這邊檢舉，你們是不是叫他們一定要下架？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，不是大陸的網站就叫做中國的東西，我們是會看產品。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你完全沒有掌握到這個狀態，你們之後再到本席辦公室來做詳細的說明，你把我提供的這三個案件、這三組照片很清楚地去分析之後，你再來告訴我們，你們是怎麼做的，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝部長。部長，我想這個可能你們還是要去查一下，如果臺灣的廠商被山寨過去到中國，或者是臺灣的產品到了中國變成掛他們的名字，或者是賣假貨，利用淘寶、蝦皮這些賣假貨過來，我覺得我們都有責任要去把它查清楚，這是保障臺灣的農民。謝謝。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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因為你是少數橫跨520都繼續在這個位置上面的部長那其實因為今天的解凍案當中的時候其實有一個農業管理虛募管理部分有一個一千萬的部分那其中這部分其實跟去年的雞蛋之亂其實有一些關係"},{"start":39.961,"end":40.501,"text":"昨年的雞蛋之亂 今年"},{"start":64.029,"end":85.846,"text":"臺灣雞蛋的供需狀況是不是還會出現缺口需要從國外進口的狀態我想以我們現在目前的評估是不會的因為在去年我們把整個的一個雞蛋的產業鏈重組了以後那現在的蛋中雞跟蛋精它的生產效率也提高了然後每日蛋的產能也提高了所以我們預估整個的一年幾年"},{"start":86.627,"end":105.135,"text":"部長在這邊很正式就是公開的表示今年去台灣不會出現缺氮的狀態不會再出現去年這樣的一個雞蛋之亂嘛對不對好那剛剛的時候因為你有回應這個楊全英委員特別提到說4月19號的時候把之前數的蛋全部過期蛋全部都銷毀掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":106.235,"end":124.204,"text":"那我想問一下,因為你剛剛也回答得非常大聲你就講說這個蛋銷毀了之後那因為我記得在4月17號考察的時候有特別押了一個時間就是4月30號之前的時候所有的影片必須要上架請問這個部分我們做到了嗎?"},{"start":124.844,"end":149.65,"text":"我想我們的影片因為整個影片包括我們每一批的影片那個上架的那個檔案非常大所以我們把相關的三個部分一個是在出庫的部分一個在運輸的部分一個是在做堆肥的部分的影片我們有上架那如果任何有希望在看其他日期的部分可以來申請因為我們不可能所有"},{"start":150.43,"end":150.67,"text":"主席"},{"start":171.96,"end":171.98,"text":"農業部"},{"start":187.845,"end":208.311,"text":"能夠的時候某一個部分能夠把最新的版本上來如果說你們覺得檔案太大不要把所有的過程上來我也接受這個部分可是我希望最新的東西能夠很清楚然後讓民眾看到整個的一個過程因為我們看到這過程當中沒有聲音然後沒有相關的一個盤點的一個細節好不好"},{"start":210.531,"end":222.485,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是我們整個錄影沒有錄音我們是用密錄器的方式那我也同意這個銷毀是用密錄器的方式錄啊為什麼要用密錄器的方式錄"},{"start":224.008,"end":251.181,"text":"因為它是一個監督因為我們這個監督不能夠公開的方式用密錄器錄不是我們是掛在胸前這樣錄的方式啦那也許用詞可能不是那麼恰當但是每一個人都知道正在錄影但是我們並沒有錄音這第一點第二點就是說我們會選一個就是因為都有第三方的要求包括地方政府的衛生局啊或者是國稅局都會去參加這樣的一個一個銷毀的動作"},{"start":252.761,"end":279.327,"text":"這個部分就是仔細把它弄好因為你剛剛承諾一個今年不會發生缺氮的事情我覺得至少是一個政策性的一個宣示那這些後續的部分的時候我們希望把它做得更完善然後讓民眾覺得這過去這十億的錯誤政策要買單的錢不會這麼痛至少你有一個負責任的一個做法那我接下來我想問一個部分"},{"start":281.088,"end":294.842,"text":"針對我們整個動物傳染病防治條例當中的時候我們目前如何界定網際網路內容如果涉及境外因施檢異物我們怎麼去判斷這個部分部長"},{"start":295.342,"end":324.081,"text":"我想在網站的部分我們會去監控相關的網站那第一個就是網站如果有疑似使用中國的這些圖片的時候那我們第一個就會先懷疑只要疑似就要求下架嗎這樣子因為我們是根據我們動物傳染病的一個防治的一個條例那基本上影片他會PO這樣的一個影片表示說他是在那個國家的東西所以我們很有理由就是說他是由中國的這個產品"},{"start":325.242,"end":325.863,"text":"請問這個部分的時候你們認為要不要下架?"},{"start":342.123,"end":366.285,"text":"市長你直接回答我就好,因為時間有限,你直接回答我因為這個是食品,我們強調的是跟動植物防疫檢疫有關的所以它本身像你說雞蛋或其他的跟動物的製品有關的我們才會處理所以這個東西你不處理的,好這個東西不處理是不是所以是不會下架嘛,不處理就不會下架的意思啊沒有我不知道這個裡面的東西是什麼"},{"start":369.674,"end":385.304,"text":"寵物的凍乾和食品你就看這兩個部長你簡單回應我一下好不好這個東西你覺得要怎麼處理我想我們有專業的判斷就是說這個圖片這個要不要下架這個要看他的產品的來源"},{"start":388.896,"end":407.972,"text":"這個來源人家就很清楚提供所有的資料告訴你來源是台灣的結果你們要求人家下架就看這圖感覺很像就叫人家下架部長我再看下一個齁這個左邊是台灣的右邊是淘寶的照片完全一樣你就要不要下架好部長你回答不出來我再往下看"},{"start":416.136,"end":443.416,"text":"這個是左邊是台灣的右邊是大陸的這個要不要下架照片完全一樣欸不是 我要跟委員說明齁不是中國的產品都不能進來第一個就是說它符合就是說某些產品是禁止由大陸中國進口的部分理解 所以部長所以我要你直接做這樣子判斷因為你們這邊在做處理的時候就說圖片相似就要求人家下架完全沒有顧慮到廠商"},{"start":445.208,"end":467.59,"text":"生存多麼的不容易,要做生意你以為很容易嗎?結果我舉這三個案子當中的時候,第一個案子就是你們看到圖片相似,疑似就要求人家直接下架,人家當天提出證明他從台灣採購的東西,你們完全不認喔!沒有沒有,我跟委員說你不是這樣子齁,他們提出來以後我們要去查,"},{"start":468.631,"end":490.102,"text":"是不是這樣子的那是不是要查被我確定才叫人家下架你們是第一時間就叫人家下架部長你知道他們這怎麼處理嗎所以我在想說現在農業部這麼大防檢局這麼大只要他覺得儀式圖片類似就要求下架欸那我現在如果是廠商惡性競爭的時候我覺得好你再看下面齁"},{"start":492.312,"end":514.722,"text":"我再看下面一張左邊這邊是台灣知名品牌的被人家用同樣的照片放在大陸的網站上面他是不是相似他是完全一樣喔如果這樣子的時候我們直接來你們這邊檢舉你們是不是叫他們一定要下架我要跟委員說明喔不是大陸的網站就叫做中國的東西"},{"start":515.522,"end":515.802,"text":"瞭解"}]}},{"id":"152265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf714d726dcb55dce55d5e31cafebf20a13d36499d1b681a2ac7844353fb8ddf334f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:43:39 - 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point，提到「仗在哪裡打，部隊就在哪裡訓」，我們最主要是要問目前儲存的一些措施，以及安全措施是否完善，而最主要的就是由於之前的雲林事件，因為有時候你們一存放，居民會說什麼彈藥庫等等之類的，所以就會覺得可能要反對或什麼等等之類的。但因為這一次是人事的部分，我們前幾天有收到存放狀況的說明，上面就寫「由各地區彈庫分屯紅隼火箭彈，並持續以中科院每年最大產能籌補彈藥，以利兼顧戰備及訓練所需」，我個人認為這個回答似乎有點過度精簡了啦！因為這等於好像沒有回答到之前的問題，所以不知道柏副部長在這邊有沒有什麼其他的說明，或者之後針對這個事情有沒有要做一些補充？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員，有關紅隼火箭彈存放的問題，第一個先要看存放的環境，第二個是要看支援的部隊，它都跟其作戰分區有關係，所以基於這樣子的一個考量，我們在實際上的存放方式，事實上我不建議在這邊討論它的位置在哪裡、屬性在哪裡，但是有關存管的方式，我相信我們國軍在歷次關於彈藥庫的評估和環境的評估，甚至於跟地方上安全的間隔距離，這些都是必須要考量的。所以整體上來講，雖然這個答得很簡單，但是我相信實質上的內容如果委員想知道的話，我們可以到委員辦公室再詳盡地說明，我想基本上存放跟上述幾個條件和要素都有關係，所以這也牽涉到我們將來如何相互支援彈藥的問題，我們都把它考量進去。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，這沒問題，我覺得如果要到辦公室說明，因為有時候怕過度機密等等，這個都沒問題，但可能也可以在文書上面先寫一下……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的、是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：不然的話，這個回答說真的好像有點太短了。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，我懂、我懂。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，我要問與退輔相關的，這個很快啦！至於紅隼的部分我就跳過，跟雲林的有點類似。簡報上的這個就是上次講的職涯探索，因為其實上次跟副主委好像也有討論到，就是職涯探索的成效不錯，所以那時候是有在講職涯探索expand，就是它有沒有能夠做得更多，然後能讓效益更好，以及目前評估效益的方式。但因為這個問題問得比較晚，所以這個部分還沒有得到退輔會的相關說明，因此在這兩個禮拜之內看能不能針對職涯探索部分的成效可以讓我們知道？因為接下來就要進入到預算會期了，我一直都覺得職涯探索應該會對不管是退輔或者是即將要退役的，其幫助應該是蠻大的。"],["李副主任委員文忠：是，跟委員報告，我們職涯探索辦得非常好，每一次的無記名，就是來受訓的都是國軍現任官兵，滿意度都超過百分之九十幾，我們一再期待國軍能夠有十分之一，未來是全部，但是因為國防部的戰訓本務太多，所以現在增加有困難，困難在國防部。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題，這個我們之後再來看要怎麼辦。"],["李副主任委員文忠：謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間有限，我先到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員為黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.41909375000000004,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.83971875,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.480968750000002,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.72034375,"end":233.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.01971875,"end":293.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.82096875000002,"end":237.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.96846875000003,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.98909375000002,"end":242.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.22096875000003,"end":242.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.82409375,"end":245.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.72346875,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.94221875,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.70284375,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.28034375000004,"end":321.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.65971875,"end":324.36846875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.687,"end":2.343,"text":"博副部長跟李文忠副主委"},{"start":10.232,"end":31.62,"text":"因為今天是跟預算有關的所以我最主要就是只是在追我們在這幾次質詢跟一些回覆的情形不複雜那第一個就是說這一個最早的時候是問到這些灰色地帶的一些應對準則那這個並沒有期限所以只是說希望日後我們針對這一個灰色地帶的這些準則能夠盡快的來做一些討論"},{"start":32.62,"end":57.599,"text":"那再來就是中科院這兩件事情那當然有這兩個其實都是監察院的那這兩個好像都已經都已經搞定了所以這應該沒什麼問題那這個紅准的這個東西呢我待會來講那現在就是潛艦這個部分昨天在這一個通訊安全的部分已經討論過了那因為潛艦的通訊安全某種程度算是機密不應該讓其他人知道說到底這個尤其是我們的敵國知道我們現在通訊發展到什麼程度"},{"start":58.119,"end":85.724,"text":"目前來講有一些加密的狀況應該都已經沒什麼問題當然也有一些需要改進的地方這個也有在辦公室討論過了那人力這個問題我覺得當然有點非戰之罪但可能還是要在這一陣子研擬一些方案因為畢竟昨天聽海軍的說明是的確在這個海軍號的部分在前期的時候都已經劃不好人力了但問題就還是出在說整體海軍的人力就是比較不足這個當然是招募的問題我覺得可能也是非戰之罪"},{"start":86.784,"end":102.715,"text":"那這個下面這一個跟這個陸海空這個服役條例的一個修正案那本來是在跟退輔會但是國防部也有來討論那時候有在講說是不是在這一個國安法相關的法例也應該做一併的修正那這個我們也已經修正了所以已經送出去了這個也沒問題"},{"start":103.816,"end":119.965,"text":"抗彈板跟頭盔最主要還是頭盔因為頭盔現在已經換了測試的方式換了測試的方式顯然會有一些明顯的改善所以這個也還好所以退伏盔這個我待會說所以我現在就針對這個紅准紅准這個部分當時我們在問的時候最主要是在問訓練跟存放的問題因為就是要時兵時彈時地"},{"start":127.53,"end":140.901,"text":"這都是當時的powerpoint說仗在哪裡打部隊在哪裡訓最主要我們是要問目前儲存的一些措施然後安全措施是否完善然後最主要就是因為之前雲林的這個事件因為有時候你一存放居民一說什麼彈藥庫等等之類的"},{"start":143.203,"end":143.644,"text":"主管預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":161.122,"end":161.522,"text":"持續最大產能籌備彈藥以利兼顧戰備。"},{"start":178.789,"end":207.557,"text":"委員有關於這個紅準火箭彈存放的問題第一個先要看存放的環境那第二個是要看支援的部隊那它都跟它的作戰分區有關係所以你基於這樣子的一個考量我們在實際上存放的這樣子的一個方式事實上我不建議在這邊討論它位置在哪裡屬性在哪裡但是有關於存管的方式我相信我們這國軍在歷次有關於彈藥庫的評估和環境的評估甚至於跟"},{"start":208.537,"end":233.599,"text":"地方上安全的間隔距離這都是必須要考量所以整體上來講雖然這個答的很簡單但是我相信實質上內容如果委員想知道的話我們可以到委員辦公室再詳細的說明我想基本上存放跟上次幾個條例和關係都有關係所以這也討論到我們將來如何來相互支援這個彈藥的問題我們都把它考量進去"},{"start":234.076,"end":244.492,"text":"好,那這沒問題,我覺得如果說要到辦公室說明,因為有時候怕過度機密等等,所以這都沒問題,但可能也可以在文書上面先寫一下,就是說不然的話,這個回答說真的好像有點太短了。那再來我是要問這個退府相關的,那這個很快啦,"},{"start":250.16,"end":278.432,"text":"這個紅准的這個部分我就跳過說跟雲林的有點類似啦那這個就是上次講的那個質押探索因為其實這個上次跟這個副主委好像也有在討論到就是說質押探索的成效不錯啦所以呢那時候是有在講說這個質押探索它expand就是它有沒有能夠做得更多然後能讓這個效益更好然後以及呢就是目前評估效益的方式但因為問這個問題問得比較晚所以這個部分還沒有得到這個退伏會的這個相關的這些說明所以呢"},{"start":279.013,"end":292.731,"text":"這個看是不是在這一個這兩個禮拜之內看能不能針對質押探索的這一個部分陳校可以讓我們知道因為接下來往下就要到進入到預算會期了那我一直都覺得質押探索應該會對不管是退服或者說即將要退役的這個幫助應該是蠻大的"},{"start":293.852,"end":315.953,"text":"是,各位委員報告,我們志願探索辦得非常好每一次的吳季敏就來授信的都是國軍現任官兵滿意度超過百分之九十幾我們一再期待能夠國軍有十分之一,未來是前部但是國防部因為他們的戰信朋友太多,所以現在增加有困難"},{"start":316.714,"end":316.995,"text":"困難在國防部"}]}},{"id":"152264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71531c3a246bd8bd296811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac713a137a43a01e8185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:38:28 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09:49:15","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":647,"end_time":"2024-05-08T09:49:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:38:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時38分）謝謝主席，有請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：陳委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：院長早安。在開始質詢之前，我想所有人都會關心關於翠玉白菜最近的新聞，但是我們就要問，因為在相關的新聞稿中，故宮的回應是說會制定相關SOP，我們就要問，這一次因為翠玉白菜，所以你們發現有相關SOP是不夠的，但是你們目前內部盤點後還有沒有其他SOP是不足的？不能只有哪裡破洞就補哪裡。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，我這一年來把所有相關作業規則、行政命令通通翻出來，然後做了一個總盤點，所以這個部分我們在年底，就會出版一個故宮的法令彙編跟文物安全的作業手冊。"],["陳委員培瑜：在這個年底之前呢？陸續還會有其他的展覽，不是嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，SOP的部分，我們可以修的都修了，這次修的話，因為散落在各個地方，我們把它放在一個通則中，要不然的話，可能會大家看這一份沒有看那一份有，然後我通通把它修改……"],["陳委員培瑜：如同院長剛剛說的，到年底前，你們會有相關的法令彙編，到時請務必送一份給教育及文化委員會，讓所有委員作為參考，好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。","我覺得每次只要談到故宮，我們會想要先問，到底故宮的國際定位在哪裡，我想院長自己也不否認，故宮其實是非常重要的亞洲博物館，而且它明明有面對國際觀光客的這些資源在身上，我們來看2015年藝術界的權威媒體，故宮的評比，當時的參觀人次來到五百多萬，當時的世界排名是全球第六，還是當時的亞洲第一；回過來看現在2023年，我們在這份名單上已經看不到故宮排在前面。可是如果我們看相關人數的對照，故宮的人次規模在去（2023）年只剩下一百多萬，相較於我剛剛說的2015年，故宮整個衰退到只剩三分之一。如果院長要告訴我是因為疫情，那我就先直接告訴你，故宮最常、喜歡拿羅浮宮來做學習的對象，羅浮宮在2015年，也就是我剛剛說故宮第六名的時候，當時它是第一名、八百多萬人次，到了2023年，也就是疫情過後，他們依然維持在八百多萬人次。我想問院長，明年就是百年大展了，故宮如何面對自己的國際定位這件事情？"],["蕭院長宗煌：的確，因為故宮最慘的時候衰退到一年41萬人，去年是155萬。今年我們的目標是255萬，明年我們希望可以回到300萬。在故宮的國際定位上來講，故宮擁有最精彩的華夏文物，我們透過不同的方式，國內外交流的話希望做更好的一個宣傳，讓文化的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們都沒有否定國內外交流的重要性，剛剛萬美玲委員質詢的時候也提到文物的交流非常重要。但是文物的交流，可能是研究性居多，或者故宮怎麼定位自己的國際交流、相關的行銷推廣及面對所謂的國際觀光客？以前很常聽到故宮還會說因為陸客不來、因為疫情，那我就問，如果故宮想像的就只有所謂的陸客，我們不去面對國際觀光客、不去想像國際觀光客，或者我們不辦相關的活動去召喚國際觀光客，它怎麼可能變成有國際定位、自己想像有國際定位的故宮？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，就故宮博物院，其實我上任的時候也一直思考怎麼樣提升國際文化交流的動能，當然也有貴會的委員提出故宮要提一個故宮的國際戰略計畫，這跟我們原來的規劃不謀而合，所以我們現在……"],["陳委員培瑜：請問那個國際戰略計畫目前的進度是……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們現在國際戰略目標的構想，已經有一個初稿，也送給吳委員，可能回去以後我們也送給大院的每一個委員。而因為國際戰略牽扯到……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這件事情是大家一直很在意的，今天也許時間上沒有辦法讓院長說清楚，也或者如同您說的，你們還有相關戰略定位的報告正在研議當中。但是我想要再次提醒，國際定位這件事情真的非常、非常重要，尤其明年的故宮又逢百年的這件事情，我相信大家不只是想要看見更多的文創商品，當然文創商品賣得很好，我知道增加故宮非常多的收入，但是我覺得故宮必須要把自己放在這個高度，才能夠對國際觀光客或者對國人有所交代。","我們看下一個問題，禮拜一的考察，我們辦公室的助理有去，在這個考察當中，故宮直接告訴所有教育及文化委員會的委員，在文物維護還有庫房管理的人力相當不足，這是故宮自己提出來的。那我想問院長，你上任這一年多以來，你如何看待故宮目前人力的運用，靠所謂的基金聘用人力或是實習生的非典型人力來運作、擴編人事這件事情，因為你們也即將要提出明年的預算，院長自己怎麼看這件事情？"],["蕭院長宗煌：修復的人力不足，這是真的，以故宮來講，故宮在保存這69萬件文物，讓它們安全無虞，就是做好維護工作，比買新的展品還重要。很多人問故宮為什麼不買新的展品……"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有問你新展品啦！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道……"],["陳委員培瑜：我問你修復人力跟典藏的人力這個部分。"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以這個部分的話，因為受限於總員額法，當然未來在故宮南院……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我就是要等院長回答這句，如果是總員額法，我們有沒有機會，如果在沒有辦法擴編人力之下，是不是現在內部員額要怎麼盤點跟調整，在你們不同的處室當中做調整？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，現在16人裡面有4位是用基金聘用，如果我們錢賺得多的話，依照博物館法，基金我們可以增聘人。"],["陳委員培瑜：錢賺得多，又回到我前面的那一題，如果故宮沒有一個國際定位、沒有好的行銷計畫，它當然就很難再召喚到更多人走進故宮，對嘛？所以如果這個問題是環環相扣的，也就是為什麼我一開始要問故宮自己的定位到底在哪裡，從上個會期我就一直在問故宮的百年計畫，到底那個定位是什麼？而現在回過來看百年大展、回到國際定位這件事情，我相信立法院的委員絕對願意支持相關的人力預算，可是我覺得故宮必須要自己面對，並且提出相關需求。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，百年或者所謂的全球文化戰略都牽涉到，也許人力不足是另外一個問題，可是經費的話，因為故宮來講，我來了以後發現故宮的宣傳經費是兩位數，我說怎麼可能故宮的宣傳經費是兩位數呢？可是他們說以前就是這個樣子，所以這是不合適的。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以看起來院長也面臨很多的困境，我覺得你確實是要提出來，讓大家可以共同參與討論，好不好？我相信教育及文化委員會絕對都會支持。","昨天的記者會，院長有看到嗎？你們自己發行這個，就是我手上拿的「今牌人生」牌卡。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：院長自己有玩過嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我自己手上有，但是我還沒玩。"],["陳委員培瑜：你還沒玩，那我跟你報告……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我的年紀還沒有到要玩……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室幫你玩過了，你們的說明書裡面說你們邀請臺北榮民總醫院，針對失智治療及研究中心、高齡醫學中心，我們要肯定你們為了這件事情做相關的開發，以及你們進行培訓工作坊相關的成就。包含前測、後測，關於輕度失智、輕度認知障礙的長者，在語文、圖像、學習、記憶能力都有進步，而且大幅進步的這件事情，我們絕對肯定故宮在這件事情上為長者們所做的努力，可是你們昨天記者會說直接要把這套牌卡拿出來賣。","在2022年的新聞你們自己就說，這套牌卡需要專業或者醫療人員進行認知研究的相關引導，所以必須是跟醫事人員在現場操作有關，可是你現在卻直接拿出來到賣場要賣，請問故宮如何想像自己這套產品的定位？剛剛說我幫你玩過了，你知道它最大的困境是什麼？院長，我跟你報告，你這本手冊裡面只有3頁是使用指引，後續這一百多頁全部都是單張圖卡的文物說明，請問它到底是藝術文學性的專業、故宮典藏的專業，還是醫療的專業？這件事情我完全看不出來。而我要說，我沒有要否定你們跟榮總開發用在醫事工作人員上對長者的這個協助，可是如果你直接放到商品架上來賣，這樣好像不太合理耶！"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為很多博物館的同業都希望故宮可以給，所以我們就是用販賣的方式，此外博物館學系的學生也希望，一般的話，也有家裡的媽媽覺得小朋友可以玩，他們也要給小朋友。所以這個部分的話，當然沒有錯，如果把這個卡拿到醫療上，我們通常不講醫療，就是從一個認知活動上面來講，是要有專業人員的引導，因為這個基本上……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我覺得是故宮自己在開發相關產品或找團隊合作的時候，跟後續做出來的東西的那個定位有很大落差。我們都認同這樣的牌卡開發是故宮增加收入、履行社會責任的很好的事情，但是產品定位、後續使用，或者如同您剛剛說的，如果剛開始榮總的開發是針對長者，可是你剛剛一下子又提到媽媽，說小孩在家也可以用。"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為我們有專業版跟一般版……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你之後上架的會是這個嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，一般版。"],["陳委員培瑜：一般版。我們那天去考察，大家拿到的到底是一般版還是專業版？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我不曉得那天拿到的是什麼版本，但是跟委員報告，因為我們跟榮總續約3年，再簽3年，3年的話我們會開發新的教案……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是在你們的業務報告裡面其實沒有提到，如果你要提的是專業版，我剛剛說我們沒有意見，而且我們相信很多的研究中心、認知工作坊裡面一定都會覺得很好用。但是我不要談其他美學的問題，就是產品的定位，如果你們現在都說不清楚，因為我的時間到了，那就麻煩再給教育及文化委員會的所有委員一份報告，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為還沒有上架，所以那天的話應該是記者會……"],["陳委員培瑜：記者會上也沒有說明清楚。好不好？所以就拜託再把相關報告給教育及文化委員會的所有委員一份，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":34.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.94534375,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.282843750000005,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":58.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.72221875,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.08659375,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.50284375000001,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.30471875,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.02221875,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.12534375,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.39346875,"end":194.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.06409375,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.57346875000002,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.13721875000002,"end":248.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.47721875000002,"end":266.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.82534375,"end":325.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.92096875000004,"end":344.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.62284375,"end":347.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.04034375000003,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.76159375000003,"end":352.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.79471875,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.75471875000005,"end":376.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.41534375000003,"end":408.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.52409375,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.18034375,"end":430.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.31409375000004,"end":440.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.05909375000005,"end":446.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.64471875000004,"end":446.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.04971875,"end":448.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.38284375,"end":448.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.90596875000006,"end":454.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.48784375,"end":469.12221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.39221875000004,"end":487.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.75221875000005,"end":505.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.89284375000005,"end":506.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.43284375,"end":506.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.48346875000004,"end":506.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.56784375,"end":537.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.85409375,"end":550.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.87096875,"end":537.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.9153437500001,"end":570.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.0178437500001,"end":594.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.88346875,"end":596.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.4272187500001,"end":598.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.75596875,"end":601.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.75159375,"end":603.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.3415937500001,"end":606.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.36221875,"end":616.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.85971875,"end":611.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.93909375,"end":635.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.69596875,"end":637.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.58971875,"end":645.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.6484687500001,"end":639.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.37784375,"end":645.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.7990937500001,"end":647.13659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.114,"end":8.995,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請院長 謝謝有請蕭院長陳委員早好 院長早安在開始質詢之前我想所有人都會關心關於這個翠玉白菜最近的新聞但是我們就問因為在相關的新聞稿故宮的回應是說會制定相關SOP那我們就要問這一次因為翠玉白菜所以你們發現有相關SOP不夠但是你們目前內部盤點還有沒有其他SOP是不足的"},{"start":37.324,"end":54.654,"text":"我一年來把所有相關的作業規則行政命令通通翻出來然後做一個總盤點所以這個部分的話我想我們在年底的話會有一個故宮的法令會編跟文路安全的作業手冊會出版"},{"start":55.054,"end":70.973,"text":"那在這年底之前呢還會有陸續其他的展覽不是嗎基本上來講的話SOP的部分我們可以修的都修了這次修的話就是修說因為散落在各個地方我們把它放在一個通則"},{"start":72.054,"end":75.335,"text":"每次只要談到故宮我們想要先問故宮到底國際定位在哪裡我想院長你自己也不否認故宮其實是非常重要的亞洲博物館"},{"start":97.961,"end":106.55,"text":"而且他明明其實有面對國際觀光客的這些資源在身上我們來看在2015年藝術界的權威媒體故宮的評比當時的參觀人次來到500多萬是當時的世界排名全球第六還是當時的亞洲第一可是我們回過來看到現在2023年"},{"start":119.904,"end":120.024,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":138.456,"end":162.513,"text":"院長你要告訴我是因為疫情那我就先直接告訴你故宮最常常喜歡拿羅浮宮來做學習的對象羅浮宮在2015年也就是我剛剛說故宮第6名的時候當時他是第一名800多萬人次到2023年也就是疫情過後他們依然維持在800多萬人次我想問院長明年就是百年大展了故宮如何面對自己的國際定位這件事情"},{"start":164.926,"end":189.424,"text":"的確因為故宮最慘的時候摔到一年的話41萬人那去年的話是155萬那今年的話我們目標的話是255萬明年的話我們希望說可以回到300萬那在故宮的國際定位上來講的話故宮擁有最精彩的一個華夏文物那我們透過不同的方式國內外交流的話我們希望做一個"},{"start":193.146,"end":212.76,"text":"我們都沒有否定國內外交流的重要性就是剛剛外美領委員質詢的時候也有提到這個文物的交流非常重要但是文物的交流它可能是研究性居多或者是故宮怎麼定位自己的國際交流跟相關的行銷推廣跟面對所謂的國際觀光客以前很常聽到故宮還會說因為入客不來因為疫情"},{"start":213.2,"end":227.679,"text":"那我就問如果故宮想像的就是只有所謂的路客我們不去面對國際觀光客不去想像國際觀光客或是我們不辦相關的活動去召喚國際觀光客他怎麼可能變成有國際定位有自己想像這個國際定位的故宮"},{"start":229.721,"end":243.549,"text":"故宮博物院其實我上任的時候也一直思考怎麼樣提升國際文化交流的動能當然也有貴會的委員提出說故宮要提一個故宮的國際戰略計畫其實這個跟我們原來規劃的不謀而合請問那個國際戰略計畫目前"},{"start":248.712,"end":248.772,"text":"國際戰略目標構想"},{"start":266.625,"end":266.725,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":282.301,"end":282.541,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":301.343,"end":325.182,"text":"在這個考察當中故宮直接告訴所有教育文化委員會的委員說在文物維護還有庫房管理的人力相當不足這是故宮自己提出來的那我想要問院長你上任這一年多以來你如何看待故宮目前人力的應用靠所謂的基金聘用人力或是實習生非典型的人力來運作擴編人事這件事情因為你們也即將要提出明年的預算嘛院長你自己怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":326.973,"end":350.6,"text":"修復的人力不足這是真的那以故宮來講的話故宮在保存這69萬件文物讓他們安全無疑然後就是做好一個維護工作比買新的展品還重要很多人問說故宮為什麼不買新的展品我沒有問你新展品啦我問你修復人力跟典藏的人力這個部分所以這個部分的話因為受限於總研委法那當然就是說未來的話"},{"start":351.38,"end":351.7,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":375.725,"end":376.545,"text":"請院長再次我相信立法院的委員絕對願意支持相關的人力預算"},{"start":404.042,"end":404.482,"text":"故宮必須面對並提出相關需求"},{"start":429.454,"end":448.01,"text":"所以看起來院長你也面臨很多的困境我覺得你確實是要提出來讓大家可以共同參與討論好不好我相信所有教育文化委員會絕對都會支持好最後一分鐘這個院長昨天記者會你有看到嗎你們自己發行這個我手上拿這個金牌人生對好院長你自己有玩過嗎"},{"start":449.471,"end":452.333,"text":"我自己手上有,但是我玩的話我年紀還沒有到要玩"},{"start":469.443,"end":485.555,"text":"好 包含前測後測關於輕度失智輕度認知障礙的長者在語文圖像學習記憶能力都有進步而且大幅的進步這件事情我們絕對肯定故宮在這件事情上為長者們所做的努力可是你們昨天記者會說直接把這套牌卡拿出來賣我們來往下看"},{"start":487.799,"end":488.88,"text":"請問故宮如何想像自己這套產品的定位?"},{"start":506.657,"end":520.627,"text":"所以我剛說我幫你玩過了你知道他最大的困境是什麼院長我跟你報告齁你這本手冊裡面只有三頁是實用指引後續所有這一百多頁全部都是單張圖卡的文物說明請問他到底是藝術文學性的專業故宮典藏的專業還是醫療的專業這件事情我完全看不出來那我要說我沒有要否定你們跟榮總開發這個用在醫事工作人員上的這個對於長者的協助可是如果你直接放商品架上來賣"},{"start":536.357,"end":538.698,"text":"這個部分的話當然沒有錯就是說如果把這個卡拿在一個醫療"},{"start":562.972,"end":563.012,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":592.912,"end":593.092,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":610.974,"end":635.42,"text":"因為我們跟榮總的話續約三年再簽三年三年的話可是在你的業務報告裡面其實你們沒有提到如果你要提的是專業版我剛剛說我們沒有意見而且我們相信很多的研究中心很多的認知工作方裡面一定都會覺得很好用齁那就更但是我不要談其他美學的問題就是產品的定位如果你們現在都說不清楚那就麻煩因為我時間到了就再給教育文化委員會專委委員一份報告所以記者會上也沒有說明清楚嗎好不好好"},{"start":639.821,"end":642.572,"text":"所以就拜託再把相關報告給教育及文化委員會所委員一份,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71690970015df876b0bf7234400c22c8c236499d1b681a2ac7f2ef179986d190cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:43:55 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Again Again昨天在程序委員會,再次被國民黨跟民眾黨聯手阻卻在程序委員會的排案之列,我們再一次覺得非常的遺憾。所以說到秘密會議,剛剛大家也講什麼通訊軟體很方便啊,不需要人到第三地啊,就要泄密也就可以泄密。"},{"start":163.593,"end":174.241,"text":"這不就是代表我們正應當好好來面對我們對立法委員行為法怎麼去規範立委不能胡亂泄密的行為嗎?連心態都要重整重建啊。請看看民進黨的議事規則的條文。我們有三個條文而這些條文的執行我們透過非常長時間的討論。"},{"start":184.229,"end":189.293,"text":"厲（二）委員范雲等18人擬具:「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案。厲（二）委員范雲等18人擬具:「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案。厲（二）委員范雲等18人擬具:「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":205.487,"end":208.909,"text":"厲（二）委員范瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":221.954,"end":246.994,"text":"特殊需求的前向人員因身心障礙而有需求,因為他需要一些輔具,經主席同意者得使用相關器材作為輔具。我用這一個條文的內容要來告訴大家,今天要討論的是在立法院裡面的秘密會議各種形式的管控事項。而且民進黨版是周延到身心障礙者他的輔具是需要被排除的。"},{"start":247.634,"end":249.215,"text":" bicyn 范雲等16人擬具:「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":265.092,"end":291.598,"text":"厲定出來的所以各位國民黨委員如果有高見歡迎在逐條的時候提出更具體的我們好好來自我約束好好來落實國會的保密事項所以我不好意思我要占用程序發言的時間來講條文因為基本上我覺得很多委員對於條文的理解已經掌握了ABC但如果可以掌握到XYZ我們就可以很快的聚焦來討論"},{"start":293.058,"end":321.041,"text":"所以呢沒有問題的我看看各位委員都準備好對於條文的理解隨時right now就可以進行逐條討論我們不要再浪費民脂民膏第12天的議程不要再重蹈覆轍真的我看羅志強委員也準備充分啊林思明委員也都是有理解啊謝龍介大哥還沒發言但我想你一切都了然於心然後翁曉琳委員剛剛可以就具體的條文提出您的觀點"},{"start":322.972,"end":328.924,"text":"為什麼?不要害怕!出來打球!而且大家都做好準備了!我們就逐條討論,謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"152261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71e6040bbba7f2b9165e31cafebf20a13d36499d1b681a2ac75f23dfb7261517ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:36:47 - 09:42:24","影片長度":"00:05:37","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等89案。（詳如附件1、6）二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案。（詳如附件2）三、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案。（詳如附件3）四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案。（詳如附件4）五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等 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something，像今年的兩會他們就把軍費提高到2,320億美金，比去年成長了7.2%，也表示他們正在積極的擴軍當中。在去年8月28號中國所公布的最新版標準地圖，不但納入了臺灣東部外海的一段，而且由九段線變成十段線，種種跡象都可以顯示中國的企圖心，它不單單把臺灣納入了，而且把整個南海給吃下來，等於就是中國想要怎麼畫就怎麼畫。","我想要請教副部長的是，臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環，在2021年9月15號，澳洲、英國跟美國成立了AUKUS國防協定合作夥伴關係，今年5月1號AUKUS在墨爾本舉辦第六次的外交國防部長級二加二會議，然後納入了加強韓國、澳洲、日本三邊合作的內容，其中他們的聯合聲明也特別強調維護臺海和平穩定的重要性。所以我想請教副部長，臺灣有沒有可能成為AUKUS未來plus的部分？有沒有可能？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員對於局勢作這麼詳盡的分析，我想國防部站在業管立場，對於全球關心臺海安全這件事情我們表示感激，因為現在破壞地區安全和次序的，我們很明顯知道中共對我們的威脅，在每天國防部所公布的所有情資裡面，可以看到它幾乎都在臺海周邊活動，甚至於在菲律賓、日本，乃至於關島，在整個區域以破壞國際次序來講，都引發了全球嚴重的關切。地區的和平和穩定是理念相同國家都應該要共同維持的，至於臺灣適不適合加入到AUKUS這樣子的區域安全合作會議裡面的要項，我想臺灣是民主自由的國家，我們當然希望和理念相同的國家共同建立這樣子的機制。但是我必須要強調，我們可以看到臺海的狀況，哪怕是今天美方宣布了重大的軍售，中共都採取報復的行動和措施，我想在這樣子的情況之下，我們國家所處的環境，大家必須瞭解我們如何真正能夠握到每一雙手，我們不見得今天要很高調地去做，但是事實上從這樣的合作關係，從世界對臺海關切的聲音已經表達了我們未來合作的意向，我想這是非常好的開始。"],["羅委員美玲：副部長也覺得其實我們加入任何類似這樣的組織，可能都會觸動中國敏感的神經，所以我們會另外用其他的方式跟各國加深軍事合作是嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["羅委員美玲：我之前有看到澳洲的副首相，也就是他們的國防部長表示，他認定AUKUS並不是安全同盟，他說應該是技術共享協議，這樣子是不是會讓這個組織的敏感性比較降低？我那時候在想臺灣未來是不是有機會加入plus的這個部分？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然我們希望爭取，這都是我們未來努力的方向。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。","本席補宣告，剛才報告案都已經通過了，其中第9案、第12案、第15案、第16案、第21案、第24案、第37案、第39案、第42案、第55案、第58案、第65案、第66案及第73案等14案改移至討論案，其他都通過了。","接下來進行詢答的委員為沈伯洋委員，時間為4分鐘，必要時得延長1分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","羅美玲","沈伯洋","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","林憶君","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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89案；二、處理院會\n交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等16案；三、處理院會交付113年度中\n央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等9案；四、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決\n議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等13案；五、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍\n退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等14案","agenda_id":"1134201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.607218750000001,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.04159375,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":119.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.83659375,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.01221875,"end":192.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.89534375000002,"end":221.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.39284375000003,"end":291.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.49159375,"end":329.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.88221875,"end":304.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.05971875,"end":332.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.19471875000005,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.18159375000005,"end":333.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.83971875000003,"end":336.48471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.66,"end":4.629,"text":"謝謝主席,有請國防部博副部長"},{"start":15.658,"end":33.107,"text":"520我們賴清德總統即將要就任就如這個紐約時報他所說的台灣的選民斷然拒絕北京賦予執政黨第三個總統的這個任期那賴總統他也承諾會延續我們蔡英文總統的這個兩岸的政策跟"},{"start":33.387,"end":36.67,"text":"這個維持現狀那之前呢我曾經有請教過我們國安局的蔡局長我說有沒有任何的情資顯示就是說我們的賴清德總總統上任之後呢兩岸會發生重大的這個衝突例如說在大選的時候大家都說啊如果說賴總統上任之後呢可能會發生戰爭然後賴局長那時候有提到說根據這個中國在這個今年的兩會"},{"start":61.408,"end":79.637,"text":"領導人都沒有提到武力犯台這幾個字眼那他的情思也沒有任何顯示說中國短期之內會用武力來犯台可是我們都知道說中國從來都沒有放棄武力犯台這個選項那尤其是這幾年以來中國的這個國內不論是經濟也好政治也好其實發生了很大的這個"},{"start":86.7,"end":87.961,"text":"一、二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算一、二、處理院會交付113年度"},{"start":101.705,"end":106.729,"text":"提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（提高到2320億美金（"},{"start":120.066,"end":121.708,"text":"凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算凍結案等113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":135.243,"end":138.065,"text":"臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環臺灣絕對是印太和平很重要的一環"},{"start":159.877,"end":165.802,"text":"協定合作夥伴關係。今年5月1日．沃爾本有舉辦了第6次外交國防部長級的2加2會議．納入了加強韓國、澳洲、日本三邊合作的內容其中他們的聯合聲明也特別強調維護臺海和平穩定的重要性所以我想請教副部長臺灣有沒有可能成為"},{"start":189.099,"end":191.965,"text":"或未來Plus的部分有沒有可能?"},{"start":193.212,"end":221.466,"text":"謝謝委員這麼詳盡的這樣對地區情勢的分析我想我們國防部站在夜館立場對於全球關心台海安全這件事情我們表示感激因為現在破壞地區安全和秩序的我們很明顯知道中共對我們的威脅在每天的所有國防部所公布的所有情節裡面可以看到它幾乎都在我們台海周邊活動甚至於"},{"start":222.466,"end":240.863,"text":"在菲律賓、日本甚至到關島那我想這個整個區域破壞這個國際秩序來講全球都引發了嚴重的關切我想地區的和平和穩定是理念相同國家都應該要共同維持的那至於說台灣適不適合加入到這樣子的"},{"start":241.703,"end":264.166,"text":"所有的ARCS這樣子的一個在區域安全合作會議裡面的要項我想我們台灣基於在全球是民主自由的國家我們當然希望和理念相同的國家共同建立這樣子的一個機制但是我必須要強調我們可以看到台海的狀況哪怕是今天美方宣布了重大的軍售"},{"start":264.907,"end":291.634,"text":"中共都採取報復的行動和措施那我想在這樣的情況之下我們國家所處的環境大家必須了解我們如何真正能夠握到每一雙手我們不見得我們今天很高調去做但是實際上從事真正的這樣子的一個這樣合作關係我想從世界所對台海關切的聲音已經表達了我們今天合作的這樣子未來的意向我想這樣子是一個非常好的開始"},{"start":292.58,"end":315.256,"text":"所以副部長也覺得說其實我們加入任何類似這樣的組織可能都會觸動中國敏感的這個神經所以我們會另外用其他的方式跟各國加深軍事合作是嗎?對,因為我之前我有看到就是說澳洲的副首相也就是他們的國防部長就說其實AUKUS不是他認定他不是一個安全同盟他說應該是技術共同"},{"start":316.977,"end":317.117,"text":"．外交部主管預算凍結"}]}},{"id":"152260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf711da389eb06e522b7f2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac7ce221ba616d86ab85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:31:09 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09:41:46","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-05-08T09:41:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:31:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時31分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長早。首先恭喜你繼續榮任，我們一起為農業部農政來加油，讓我們農民有更好的生活。","我們繼續討論的是蛋，上一次本席跟我們經濟委員會，啓楷委員也到現場，還有蘇清泉委員，我們一起到現場去看，大家、社會大眾都非常的希望能夠瞭解，在我們這一次的進口蛋，然後又銷毀，你總結的答案，這次的進口蛋跟銷毀，請說明到底我們花了人民多少的納稅錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想分兩個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一個烏龍事件，請說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我想第一個還是要先說明一下，當初進口蛋有它的政策目的，也達到了政策，但是在執行的過程中，的確……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有那個政策目的達到，然後在整個過程當中，是還要我們拿納稅人的錢去銷毀那些有問題的進口蛋，你把我們人民當傻子啊！這是我們辛辛苦苦的納稅錢耶！還要讓我們排隊去買雞蛋，請再說明，你告訴我總額。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個的總額……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：補助總共多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們整個補助在今年度是8.2億左右，然後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：8.2億左右，總共進口了多少顆蛋？"],["陳代理部長駿季：一億五千八百多萬顆。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那請教銷毀了多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：5,580萬顆。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：5,580萬顆銷毀，為什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想當初我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都在缺啊！都在缺啊！為什麼還進那個有問題的蛋呢？好，銷毀了5,580萬顆，請問5,580萬顆你又送到冷鏈系統負20度，我們花多少錢？到銷毀前總共花了多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：過期雞蛋去做堆肥，整個費用是四億七千多萬，那其中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：四億七千多萬？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，其中三億七千萬左右是蛋款的部分，五千萬左右是倉儲費的部分，然後四千萬左右是相關的這些運輸跟它的處理費用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：運輸跟處理費用嘛！所以平平白白補助進口的8.2億，光光五千多萬顆的蛋，我們總共又要花多少啊？你剛才講的，總共多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：四億七千多萬。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：四億七千多萬如果拿給全國的人民，你看我們有多少的福利，我們可以建設多少，拿給我們營養午餐的孩子，我們可以協助他們多少，為什麼會導致這樣子？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這些過期雞蛋會累積到這麼多有它特定的原因，就是我們當初在3月多進口的時候，是有估它相關的一些缺口，但是後來因為6月以後到7月開始，進口雞蛋被某個程度的污名化，造成大家的疑慮以後，那相對的業者也不敢買……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣子的說法本席不予認同，你的結果論……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想這個是事實。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你的結果論，當你要進口多少雞蛋的時候，你在整個產銷的資訊裡頭，你會非常清楚，我們一個月國內需要多少顆雞蛋，對不對？你的產有多少、你的銷有多少，除非本席說的烏龍事件其中有貓膩，你的產銷資訊由農業部委託給養雞協會來做，你如果很清楚你的需求，你現在只歸咎於因為大家對進口蛋有疑慮，所以才導致你這樣的原因，不可以這麼說！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這些雞蛋本身我們經過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要再跟你討論一個結果，也就是我們光光這一個錯誤的政策，補助8.2億我們的納稅錢，我們總共進口了一億五千多萬顆雞蛋，但是有五千五百八十幾萬顆的雞蛋是銷毀的，在這個銷毀當中，我們還要付出4億7慘痛的代價，除了冷鏈五千多萬，你的交通作業也要將近五千多萬，部長，人民情何以堪，這個數字告訴社會大眾，我們上次也說要公布在你們的網站，你們公布了沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：公布了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人民的感受，每一個打到服務處說：「為什麼我們沒有蛋，我們還要付錢去銷毀這些蛋？」政府要不要檢討？政府要不要檢討？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們已經很深刻地檢討整個的執行過程。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有人質疑你這個臭蛋為什麼還要去花5,000萬的冷鏈，還要負20度，低溫20度，5,000萬耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：5,000萬耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為雞蛋如果本身不做凍存的時候，它會發臭，會造成整個環境的污染。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以光光在經濟委員會，我們一直追、一直追，你已經達成錯誤的政策了，錯誤的軌道要怎麼樣把它縮短，對不對？還好最後部長加強監督，把你原本要留到6月底才完成的，到什麼時候完成？"],["陳代理部長駿季：4月19號就完成了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：4月19號對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這其中差了兩個半月，如果我們不推，你這兩個半月又要花我們1億以上的納稅錢，對不對？所以部長，我們要將心比心啦！這些都是人民的納稅錢好不好？","我們討論，你現在雞蛋的產銷是委由協會來做，那你認為到目前為止，你們調查全國1,800處的養雞場的產銷狀況，本席具體建議，你如果只有打電話去問，還是會重蹈覆轍，又是烏龍事件、又是政策錯誤，需求、供給跟時間點timing都不對，讓我們平白浪費了八億多的錢，再加上4億7，總共多少？將近13億的錢。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有、沒有，不是這樣算，總共是8.2億，今年度8.2億，然後其中裡面過期雞蛋處理的是4億7。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你的總total正確再答復一次，8.2億對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：在今年度是8.2億，然後因為今年還有一點處理費，預估大概10億，就像我上次跟委員說的大概10億左右，其中有4億7是處理過期雞蛋的費用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：五千五百多萬顆的臭蛋，所以我們一個答案，也就是光光這個政策要浪費人民10億的錢，對不對？你們花出去10億的錢。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不對，不是這樣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：補助多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們在開始補助，當初……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：補助多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們整個去年度補助8.2億，那今年度他們畜產會還沒來申請，預估大概一點多億，所以我說大概是10億，但是這10億裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括你現在講的4.7億，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，所有大概10億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以夯不啷噹包括起來就是10億嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！剛剛本席告訴你10億啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：那10億不是全部浪費，因為我們本身在3、4月份國內缺蛋的時候，我們的確也用……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這10億到還沒有算錢的部分，總共你預估大概要費用10億……"],["陳代理部長駿季：就是大概10億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括了補助，包括了五千五百八十幾萬顆的臭蛋，還有一些行政費用還沒有釐清楚、還沒有來申請，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是"],["楊委員瓊瓔：該當給人家要給人家，但是本席還是說這10億，尤其這4億7是人民非常冤枉的錢，政府要給民眾道歉，4億7的稅金耶！部長你是非常資深的事務官，你也很難過，還好是你追了這兩個半月，我們至少再減1億的錢，不然還要再浪費1億的錢，痛定思痛，本席具體建議針對這1,800處，你們應該要對於入雛數量還有養殖登記，以及屠宰的數量來交叉比對，你的數字才會更正確，同不同意？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我非常同意，我們已經針對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常同意要趕快去做！"],["陳代理部長駿季：會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們深怕會再有第二次。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想雞蛋的這些調查，一定會有更精進的作為。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你將本席今天的建議納入，然後將你們精進作為的說明資料給本席，好嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，再給我1分鐘就好，不好意思1分鐘就好。"],["主席：不好意思，委員你已經超過3分鐘。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。現在農業用的塑膠膜，所謂的農膜，請部長解決農民的問題，因為我們種水果這一些都需要用，但是你們也有說推動廢棄農膜回收，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：成效怎麼樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在已經在東石合作農場那邊，建立整個農膜的回收系統，這個回收系統做得還不錯，所以我逐步從這個部分……"],["主席：部長，我們是不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，因為我們的農民非常的希望……"],["主席：楊委員，我請部長私下再跟您回復好不好？因為我們也需要瞭解……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府需要有一個SOP流程來協助民眾……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然現在戴奧辛是世界之毒啊，對不對？所以我要拜託部長，你要研擬出統一的回收機制，不要淪為口號，協助農民好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請將怎麼協助的這一些流程給本席，好吧？謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。部長，跟農業廢棄物相關的這一些作為，是不是也能夠給經濟委員會的每位委員一份報告，好不好？好，謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員發言。我還是懇請各位委員要掌握一下時間。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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會我們一直追一直追你已經達成錯誤的政策了錯誤的軌道要怎麼樣把它縮短對不對"},{"start":356.716,"end":374.623,"text":"還好你最後部長你加強監督把你原本要留到6月底才要完成的到什麼時候完成4月19號就完成4月19號對不對這個其中差了兩個半月如果我們不對你這兩個半月又要花我們一以上的納稅錢"},{"start":378.004,"end":406.102,"text":"所以部長我們要將心比心啊這些都是人民的納稅錢好不好我們討論你現在雞蛋的產銷是委由協會來做那你認為到目前為止你們調查全國1800處的養雞場的產銷狀況本席具體建議你如果只有打電話去問你還是會重蹈覆轍又是烏龍事件又是政策錯誤"},{"start":408.604,"end":412.245,"text":"需求跟工區跟時間點time都不對讓我們平白浪費了8億多的錢再加上4億期總共多少"},{"start":420.418,"end":421.158,"text":"五千五百多萬顆"},{"start":447.25,"end":455.75,"text":"的臭蛋所以我們一個答案也就是觀光這個政策要浪費人民十億的錢"},{"start":456.835,"end":458.936,"text":"對不對?你們花出去的10億的錢?補助多少錢?補助多少錢?包括你現在講的4.7億對不對?"},{"start":479.35,"end":485.753,"text":"所以夯不啷噹包括起來就是10億嘛 對不對對啊 剛剛本期告訴你10億啊所以這10億到還沒有算錢的部分總共你預估大概要費用10億包括了補助包括了這個5580幾萬顆的臭蛋還有你一些行政費用還沒有理清楚還沒有來申請"},{"start":510.144,"end":528.154,"text":"該當給人家要給人家但是本席還是說這10億尤其這4億7是人民非常冤枉的錢政府要給民眾道歉4億7的稅金我想部長你是非常資深的事務官你也很難過還好是你追了這兩個半月我們至少再減一億的錢"},{"start":536.721,"end":559.151,"text":"不然我還要再浪費1億的錢痛定思痛本期具體建議你針對於這1800處你們應該要針對於入儲數量還有你養殖登記以及你屠宰的這個數量給他交叉比對你的數字才會更正確同不同意我非常同意我們已經非常同意趕快去做會"},{"start":560.572,"end":560.752,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":579.614,"end":597.401,"text":"也就是現在農業用的塑膠膜我們所謂的農膜請部長解決我們農民的問題因為我們種的水果這一些都需要用但是你們也有說推動廢棄農膜回收對不對成效怎麼樣"},{"start":597.961,"end":614.132,"text":"市長,我們現在已經在東石合作農場那邊建立一個整個農謀的回收系統,那這個回收系統做得還不錯,所以我們現在逐步從這個部分...部長,因為這一個我們的農民非常的希望政府需要協助一個SOP流程來協助民眾"},{"start":616.374,"end":637.056,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"152259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf716a02f6cf4f07b6cb6811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac7aa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:27:04 - 09:38:22","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":678,"end_time":"2024-05-08T09:38:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:27:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時27分）謝謝召委，我們是不是請蕭院長？"],["主席：好，有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：柯委員早。"],["柯委員志恩：蕭院長早，剛剛萬委員特別問到了有關於新內閣的新生訓練沒有看到你的蹤影，你剛剛回復說沒有被正式徵詢，那私下有徵詢嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：私下耳語很多。"],["柯委員志恩：私下耳語很多，所以基本上應該留任的機率是蠻高的，我現在覺得故宮真的是被我們卓院長跟賴總統給忘掉了，但是我們都不會忘掉故宮，故宮是我們的最愛，也是很多國人的最愛，也就是因為這樣子，所以我想今天會有很多人問你有關於翠玉白菜的事情。你看照片這個動作真的好像在簽收快遞一樣，你剛剛特別提到了翠玉白菜，當然你們有自己的SOP，而且你剛剛說到了，三面都是玻璃，已經做好非常好的防護，對不對？院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["柯委員志恩：所以發現他們兩個才是最大的破口，三面全部都防護好了，他們在這旁邊就像簽快遞一樣，我覺得把這張照片放出去，真的非常令人震撼，而且我也絕對相信不會只有這一次，他們一定常常這樣做，所以才會馬上捕捉到這樣的一個鏡頭。院長，有沒有可能？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，因為他們是在做工作紀錄，因為沒有人會在那個工作間隨便拍照，他們做工作紀錄，為了呈現他們簽署的翠玉白菜……"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你啦，你這種方式就是完全不對的，一定是有人看不下去啦！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道、我知道不對……"],["柯委員志恩：院長，除了這件事情，我想等一下一定有非常多……，你最好有一個說法，對我個人來說，他們兩個站在那邊簽署公文就是對翠玉白菜最大的一個破口，不要告訴我距離有多遠，還是安全範圍，你這種說法沒有辦法說服其他……"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是遠近的問題……"],["柯委員志恩：他們就是不應該做這樣的事情啦！院長，你會不會發現我們的翠玉白菜真的很忙，常常要出宮去，有沒有發現？當然我認為博物館非常重要的部分，我跟你調了有關於出借作業的要點，裡面指的是有關於圖書、文獻、織品等等，他們認為每次展出也要回復養護至少18個月，我們翠玉白菜不需要是不是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為它是一個異質的文物，所以它的耐候性比較強一點……"],["柯委員志恩：但是你沒有做好保險，還有你有沒有限制它出館的次數？它多久出宮之後還要回宮啊？你有沒有發現，這個做完之後，3月10號在臺南美術館，然後回宮只有幾個月的時間，所以這個部分你們有沒有一套最完整的作法？不管你說它是不是屬於國寶級，它是屬於我們的重要文物，它是每個人都想要去看的，院長你等一下可以回應。還有我為什麼會特別提出來？因為我們接到非常多導遊都在說，他們甚至在你們櫃臺大聲的講，他們想要去看翠玉白菜就發現翠玉白菜出宮到臺南，問題是很多人會想要特別到臺北故宮來看，結果發現翠玉白菜不在，對這些人來說是非常失望的，對不對？院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：的確，可是因為在我到任之前已經形成一個慣例，就是故宮的翠玉白菜要南北院輪流出差，因為肉形石在臺北的話，白菜就在南院……"],["柯委員志恩：要輪流出差，所以我說它很忙啊！我知道啊！所以這裡面進出物的檢測報告，以你們剛剛在那邊簽署公文的狀況，我們大家都會非常的擔心。它到底出宮有多少次？然後你們檢測的SOP以及它的保險，我覺得院長你都要給我一份非常完整的報告，把我們的翠玉白菜還有相關的、重要的出宮成效，請院長給我整理一份，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，因為故宮有一個現場文物的規定，最主要是書畫類的部分。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，我剛才有特別提到書畫類這個部分，這不是屬於你剛剛已經提到的，但是它的保險、它的SOP，我還是要強烈的要求部長能夠告訴我，而且北院跟南院當初的定位本來就不一樣，一個是華夏，一個是亞洲，本來就是不一樣，你現在是不太交流，我沒有意見，但是院長，它的定位還有人家的鎮院之寶，要到現場才可以看得到，這是我們非常重要的，我想請院長還是好好考量這一點。"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為故宮南院也是故宮，所以我們不能講說……"],["柯委員志恩：定位不一樣，展出的東西就不一樣。","還有接下來我要問一個非常重要的問題。院長，在禮拜一的文物修復現況當中，最後一頁你有特別提到因應國際局勢，所以你們對於山洞的庫房，要做一個很好的規劃，是不是？還有包括地緣政治。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，因為現在我們在進行北院行政大樓的建置工作，未來跟展品維護、跟展覽無關的同仁會移到山下，所以移到山下之後山洞庫房的東西就會進到研究大樓的地下室……未來會進行山洞庫房的整建。"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒關係，因為時間實在太短了，在最後一頁你竟然說，未來要做戰備物資儲存的準備，你說因為地緣政治的關係，還有戰備物資儲存，請問一下，戰備物資是你提出來，還是國安單位特別提出來的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，同仁他誤解用語，因為我們還是要準備，原來的鐵箱還是要放在裡面，如果有地緣政治危險的時候，那個鐵箱還是要趕快到……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你這裡提的戰備物資並不是要儲存戰備的一些東西？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是！不是！"],["柯委員志恩：你這邊寫戰備物資真的是嚇死人，但是我還是要請問一下，為什麼會做這樣的一個聯想，因為2022年俄烏戰爭爆發的時候，吳密察前院長曾經跟BBC特別提到，這是我們成立後第一次戰爭應變的演練，而且你有諮詢國安、軍方跟警察單位，有這樣的一回事，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，跟委員報告，因為故宮被列為重要的國土的一個相關設施，基本上，因為是國土辦列管的單位，所以我們每年都要做演練。"],["柯委員志恩：好，你們吳前院長非常擔心戰爭對故宮設備的一個破壞，還有被敵軍搶奪，他非常擔心，所以你們不管在山洞各方面的防震技術都做好了準備，真的要是發生的話，請問下一步會是什麼？寶物是就地放置呢？還是放到美國、日本還是哪裡呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不可能，目前臺灣沒有比故宮更安全的地方。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你完全就像馮明珠前院長說的，故宮文物最安全的地方就在故宮本地？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮基本上來講的話，文物都在地下、半地下，或是山洞裡面，所以相對國內其他博物館，我們是最安全的，而且故宮當初的選擇，那個地方的地形、地貌，也是有一些防空上面的考量。"],["柯委員志恩：對我個人來說，文物的保存最重要，在我們的山洞庫房當中，如果它的防震係數跟山下的部分相較，誰比較高？因為現在很多地方地震頻繁，你要由箱轉櫃，對不對？所以對我個人來說，放文物的地方中哪個地方防震係數最高，那個地方就是最安全的，這你同意嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，因為山洞庫房的東西要遷出來，我們現在請中興顧問保全公司來做……"],["柯委員志恩：我只要百分之百確定你說的戰備物資儲存，這個絕對不是如字面上所說的，因為你又開始提到地緣政治，又提到戰爭，嚇死人了！"],["蕭院長宗煌：絕對不是放鞭炮或是放什麼東西。"],["柯委員志恩：戰備物資不是鞭炮，好不好？這已經不是鞭炮等級了，院長！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道啦！"],["柯委員志恩：還是要有一點國防知識，拜託！"],["蕭院長宗煌：這是我的一個形容。"],["柯委員志恩：所以完全就是以故宮的等級來去做這樣的處理？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["柯委員志恩：否則你把它搬出來，然後放物資，然後再把它搬回去，這完全不make sense！"],["蕭院長宗煌：就是我們的鐵箱、包裝器材、維護工具等等，是這樣的意思，因為文物遷出來的話，鐵箱還是要有一個地方放。"],["柯委員志恩：所以措辭請清楚一點，我剛剛看到助理拿回來的內容，把我真的是活活的嚇死了，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["柯委員志恩：最後一個，我還是要問到，包括你的人力，史博館因為它的玻璃販賣店擋住紅牆，所以讓很多人有批評，故宮現在要加蓋玻璃屋，也是會擋住黃牆，這之前已經被臺北市文資局否決了，如果這次再被否決，院長你要不要負責？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，有四家廠商，一家因為做了玻璃入口，然後它雀屏中選得標了，所以他報了第一次，文資局不同意，但是它可以再修訂，修訂以後再送文資局，文資局如果不同意的話，我們會要它變更計畫。"],["柯委員志恩：一定要變更計畫，而且重點是每個人都喜歡拿來跟羅浮宮比，但羅浮宮跟故宮就是不一樣，現在你們的計畫要拆掉兩個樓梯，中間還有所謂玻璃採光的部分，羅浮宮不管是腹地、不管是地震，都跟臺灣完全不一樣，所以院長，不要東施效顰，而且你現在馬上告訴我，要蓋一個這麼大的、一個三層樓的玻璃建築，這個玻璃建築……"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個是南美館，不是故宮未來。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，所以我現在是告訴你，原來故宮要做的這個部分，我現在以南美館為例來告訴你，你要做一個玻璃圍牆，而南美館的例子已經告訴你，這是要打著傘帶著太陽眼鏡在喝下午茶，因為很熱，好不好？你現在從頭到尾都用玻璃的帷幕，會不會發生同樣的狀況？在所謂的氣候變遷的狀況之下全部都用玻璃，你的冷氣要開到多大才有辦法？我當然知道它是南美館，就是以它的例子告訴你，故宮在做一個文化修復當中，我不要說這是破壞，但你必須把它做一些更好的處理，可是你現在非常堅持要用玻璃帷幕的方法，這部分有很多人是非常有意見的，請好好慎重的考慮，今天因為時間的關係，我還是要請院長慎重，對於我們故宮的保存，要嚴肅的面對，文化界每個人都在看，可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，謝謝委員的提醒，我們會謹遵這樣一個指導原則，未來我們會特別關注。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是對玻璃帷幕非常的有意見，因為若是在同樣的地方，它是遮住了整個非常大的一個方向，不是只有我，所以請不要讓國史館一個錯誤的經驗又重新發生在我們的故宮，這是我們國家的寶物，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，因為我行政程序還是要走，要不然的話會有履約爭議。"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道，我只是告訴你，如果它再被否決的話，對於玻璃帷幕的放棄還是再次的修建，請院長不要不要再固著於所謂你們建築師的想法上，這是我們最後的一個提醒。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們會以社會最大的共識來處理。"],["柯委員志恩：好吧！我希望下個會期站在我前面的應該還是你，不管是公開或是私下的徵詢，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委，院長請回。我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.49909375,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.249718750000003,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.37096875,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.40471875,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.84346875,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.59409375,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.69221875000001,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.46221875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.82909375000001,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.25721875,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.35409375,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.36659375,"end":120.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.38346875,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.41721875,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.60284375,"end":125.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.61971875,"end":121.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.59784375000001,"end":127.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.31909375000001,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.27409375000002,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.70784375000002,"end":201.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.21034375000002,"end":216.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.10284375,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.89159375000003,"end":216.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.92534375000002,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.06534375,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.71471875,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.16159375,"end":270.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.31784375,"end":274.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.81534375,"end":289.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.89096875,"end":275.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.79159375,"end":291.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.94721875,"end":315.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.66159375,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.73284375000003,"end":321.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.46159375,"end":328.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.80659375000005,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.97346875,"end":367.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.34846875,"end":345.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.77096875,"end":378.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.63846875,"end":399.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.87596875,"end":398.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.09096875,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.98534375,"end":403.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.29284375000003,"end":409.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.19909375000003,"end":427.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.13721875000005,"end":448.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.94409375000004,"end":454.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.91784375000003,"end":464.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.45659375,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.87846875,"end":466.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.96659375,"end":470.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.21909375,"end":472.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.14721875000004,"end":474.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.03721875,"end":473.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.28596875000005,"end":474.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.58971875000003,"end":484.30971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.63971875000004,"end":479.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.16659375,"end":493.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.21534375000005,"end":514.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.67909375000005,"end":496.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.71659375,"end":500.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.11096875,"end":514.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.1615937500001,"end":519.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.86534375,"end":538.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.00721875,"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這個不是故宮未來這是南美館"},{"start":567.952,"end":596.689,"text":"我知道了所以我現在告訴你原來要做個故宮的這個部分裡面我只從南美館來告訴你要做個玻璃圍牆南美館已經告訴你打著傘戴著太陽眼鏡在喝下午茶因為做Ryde好不好你現在從頭到尾都要用玻璃的圍幕會不會發生同樣的狀況在所謂的這個氣候變遷的狀況之下全部用玻璃你的冷氣要開到多大才有辦法我當然知道它是南美館就是以它的例子告訴你故宮在這樣一個文化修復當中你要破壞"},{"start":597.489,"end":599.05,"text":"請好好慎重我今天時間的關係我還是要請著院長你要慎重對於我們的故宮的保存要免嚴肅的面帶文化界每個人都在看可不可以"},{"start":623.706,"end":646.29,"text":"我還是對玻璃帷幕非常的有意見因為你若在同樣的地方他是遮住了整個非常大的一個方向不是只有我不要以國使館錯誤的一個經驗請不要讓他自己的經驗又重新發生在我們的故宮這才是我們國家的寶物好不好"},{"start":646.61,"end":674.709,"text":"報告委員因為我行政程序還是要走要不然的話會有禮業爭議我當然知道啦我只是告訴你如果他再被否決的話請你們好好的對於玻璃的放棄還是再出的修建請院長不要不要再顧著於這個所謂你們建築師的想法吧這是我們最後的一個提醒我想我們會以社會最大的共識來做好吧我希望在下一個會期裡面站在我前面的應該還是你了好不好不管是公開或是私下的徵詢好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf715b8fd6cd45b2a537827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac76f1cc5596e4809c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"14:05:23 - 14:10:53","影片長度":"00:05:30","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":330,"end_time":"2024-05-08T14:10:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T14:05:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（14時5分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請次長？"],["主席：請次長。"],["李委員彥秀：次長，辛苦了。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得朝野有共識針對這兩個法案進行調整，看起來內政部這邊也是持正面看待，但是大家有很多不同的版本，怎麼樣取得一個共識？好不容易二十年來要調、好好的調，無論是民代的助理費用、里長的春節慰問金以及其他相關的費用，我覺得都要好好討論，因為下次再有機會討論都不知道是幾十年之後，可能我們大家都已經不在這邊了。我覺得現在既然要調，我們就好好面對所有的問題、好好的調整。","里長的工作繁重，剛剛幾位委員都已經講過，像偏鄉光是油錢……其實中央或地方給予里長的業務從來沒有減少過，包括我們打開全國法規資料庫，打上「里長」兩個關鍵字就可以看到跳出119個法規內容，扣掉應該廢止的法規之後，也還有七、八十筆法規要求里長應該配合的業務。無論是長照、無論是我們最近講的社會安全網議題，還包括掌握地方老人的狀況，包括像是地震過後、颱風過後的第一線災害損失評估，雖然是屬於公務人員的工作，長官也都會來視察，但是要掌握第一線的地方狀況，我想次長也非常清楚，大家都是找里長。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["李委員彥秀：社會安全網要掌握那些脆弱家庭、了解地方的狀況，第一個被敲門的都是里長，大家都是找里長前去查看，除了我們現在給里長的事務補助費之外，還要多給一個春節慰問金，這樣是不是就足以代表他的付出得到了一些肯定，這樣是不是足夠？我覺得我們應該朝向這個層面去思考、去看待今天要調整的法案。當然我們都知道城鄉差距，包括六都的狀況，其實地方財源不一，所以你剛才講到也不能加太多，否則地方財源會有問題，但是我覺得今天回歸到這個法案來看，應該要就事論事，到底應該怎麼去調整，對於他的工作，我們應該給予他的，無論是春節慰問金，或者還有沒有額外的，譬如油費或其他，我們應該都要討論。所以我更認為這筆費用無論要如何調整，加油錢也好、春節慰問金也好，甚至是未來要增加一個為民服務費，我的版本中有一個為民服務費，我覺得這些都是可以考量、考慮的，中央應該想辦法補助這些費用，否則會變成中央請客、地方買單，這是另外一個層面，我希望次長能做考量。","另外，在地方議員助理費用的部分，我當了二十幾年的民意代表，其中有20年的時間是擔任市議員，而且我相信在立法院有很多立委的前身、前一份工作也都是市議員，關於助理的費用，包括在自治條例裡面也都是被憲法所保障，我們覺得應該給予地方自治法足夠的權限去處理，到底給予多少權力是恰當的、是適當的，這一塊應該回歸到地方自治的權限去思考，包括助理應該有的一些加班費。我們都在講勞基法、勞基法，它應該要越修越好，但是事實上，民意代表的助理卻常常是一個違反勞基法的工作，他們的工作時間常常非常長，配合地方的需求、配合地方發生的狀況，助理常常都在第一線處理。所以我覺得無論是加班費、職業災害的補償、職業災害的準備或資遣費等等，這些都應該要納進考量，讓地方民意代表的助理符合勞工應有的權益，這方面應該要回到地方自治的精神，讓地方依地方的狀況去做考量、去做決定。","以上是我針對這兩個法案所提的建議，也希望次長可以做這方面的思考，這次我們不好好處理這些議題，下次再處理可能又是二十年、十多年之後，所以我覺得我們應該趁這次好好討論所有朝野黨派的版本及意見，也希望召委這邊有機會能與次長及內政部做更完整的考量與考慮。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員。我想剛剛委員指教的都非常正確，基本上，我們也都是從這方面來著手，而且這次的修法重點也都包括了剛剛委員所指教的內容。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝次長。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員黃珊珊、鍾佳濱、邱鎮軍、邱志偉、張嘉郡及黃仁所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於1週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5453437500000002,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.55346875,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.29971875,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.379718750000002,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.820343750000003,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.33471875,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.48971875,"end":34.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.977218750000006,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.12471875,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.27659375,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.52971875,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.90096875,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.91784375,"end":103.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.54346875,"end":140.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.93721875,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.39159375,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.55971875,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.90971875,"end":157.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":161.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.79471875000002,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.66096875000002,"end":187.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.38971875000001,"end":190.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.00534375,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.79846875,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.74159375,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.00221875,"end":293.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.01034375,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.43034375,"end":311.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.01596875,"end":315.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.37409375000004,"end":326.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.14471875000004,"end":326.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.81534375,"end":326.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.83221875000004,"end":326.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.88284375,"end":327.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.04721875,"end":330.44346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.378,"end":26.314,"text":"市長辛苦了我覺得草也有共識針對這個兩個法案要調整那看起來我們內政部這邊也方向也是去正面的看待但大家有很多不同的版本怎麼樣取得一個共識但是我一直認為如果因為好不容易20年"},{"start":27.355,"end":27.395,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":43.463,"end":61.214,"text":"但是我覺得既然要調我們就好好的面對所有的問題好好的來調整打開我們現在里長的工作繁重剛才結委委員已經有講了無論偏鄉光是油錢其實我們中央或地方其實給里長的業務其實從來沒有減少過包括我們打開全國法規資料庫打關鍵慶打里長兩個字我們就可以看到跳出119個法規內容扣掉"},{"start":71.561,"end":74.902,"text":"應該廢止的法規裏面也還有七八十筆法規裏面要求里長應該配合的業務無論是長照無論是最近我們在講的社會安全網的議題還有包括掌握地方老人的狀況包括類似像地震過後颱風之後我們第一線要去評估災害損失"},{"start":94.048,"end":94.168,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":122.672,"end":132.255,"text":"主要代表他的付出跟他的他所得到的一些肯定我覺得是不是足夠我覺得我們應該朝向這個層面去思考去看待我們今天調整這樣子的法案當然我們都知道城鄉差距包括六都的狀況"},{"start":141.178,"end":166.331,"text":"其實地方財源不宜所以你剛才講到說也不能加太多加太多的話地方財源會有問題但是我覺得我們今天回過到這個法案來去看的話我覺得就是應該就事論事到底應該怎麼去調整他是一個他的工作我們應該給予他的無論是春節慰問金還有沒有額外的比如說郵費其他的我們應該討論所以我更認為這一筆費用無論我們要怎麼調整"},{"start":170.233,"end":170.353,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":188.408,"end":188.568,"text":"議員：李彥秀"},{"start":205.699,"end":219.891,"text":"議員的助理我當了20幾年民意代表我有20年的時間都是當市議員所以我相信在立法院很多立委前身都是前面那份工作都是市議員所以助理的費用包括在自治條例裡面"},{"start":221.152,"end":221.192,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":242.875,"end":243.055,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":258.829,"end":258.869,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":274.042,"end":274.182,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":294.057,"end":294.137,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":315.736,"end":316.077,"text":"李彥秀委員"}]}},{"id":"152354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71d4eafe40fc5bdb5b827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac76897bfba9c102cac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"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- 14:05:16","影片長度":"00:05:22","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":322,"end_time":"2024-05-08T14:05:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:59:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1052,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時00分）主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛次長回答時有講到，目前我們對於直轄市縣市議員聘用公費助理已經多少年沒有調整過？"],["吳次長容輝：24年。"],["羅委員智強：24年，你知道這24年裡，軍公教待遇已經調整過多少次？"],["吳次長容輝：這個應該調高過好幾次。"],["羅委員智強：我看到的數字是6次。勞工基本薪資你知道調整過多少次？"],["吳次長容輝：調整到2萬7,000元了，因為中間調得比較少。"],["羅委員智強：18次，只有地方民意代表的助理費用20年來都沒有調。"],["吳次長容輝：的確，24年沒有調整。"],["羅委員智強：對，24年沒有調整。我今天很高興，因為大家終於願意面對這個問題，我今天要跟大家講一件事情，過去要調整所謂的民意代表助理費用時，都會有一些雜音，但是今天很好的是，因為這是立法委員、立法院朝野各黨，大家一致都希望能夠調整，基本上，我先講一件事情，實際上地方議員的助理費在24年都沒有調整的情況下，他們的業務還是不斷的加大和繁重，加上物價不斷的調高等各種因素考量下，其實這有點是在增加地方民代的壓力，甚至是降低了他們的服務品質，今天內政部願意配合我們一起來研擬調整他們相關的補助金額，我覺得這是好的方向。但是有一件事，其實我滿認同剛才劉建國委員所講的，因為我之前有一段時間是在全臺徒步環島，我之前的工作是臺北市議員，但是我在全臺徒步環島的時候，我就開始認知到一件事情，臺灣的幅員真的是遼闊，然後我發現各地方、就是非直轄市的縣市議員，他們有一些很重要的困擾和很大的辛苦，因為過去我們把非直轄的議員助理補助費設定為直轄市的三分之一，對不對？這個設定在我實際的走訪後發現，其實這個滿不合理的。次長，你覺得為什麼我會覺得不合理？你猜猜看為什麼我覺得不合理？"],["吳次長容輝：最主要是非直轄市的部分，畢竟它的地理環境不太一樣，因為它非常的廣泛，而且地方在服務的時候，其實有很多地方縣市議員……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣考你啦！我舉個例子，以縣市的面積來看，面積前3大的是哪3個縣市？"],["吳次長容輝：應該是……"],["羅委員智強：花蓮、南投和臺東。"],["吳次長容輝：有山區的都會比較大。"],["羅委員智強：都很大，那你知道幅員遼闊的這些行政區，地方的民代，就是非直轄市的議員，他們光有一樣東西就很可觀，什麼東西你知道嗎？有一樣錢花得很可觀。"],["吳次長容輝：婚喪喜慶。"],["羅委員智強：對，婚喪喜慶的花費也很可觀，是油錢，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：油費，是。"],["羅委員智強：因為他要跑很遠，我幾乎到每一個地方，非直轄市的議員都講他們光是油錢就不得了了，他們要上山下海，他們跑的距離真的是非常恐怖，可是你可以看到，過去非直轄市的補助是直轄市的三分之一。當然以人口來講，因為直轄市的人口密集，服務的人數可能也比較多，對不對？但是如果你考量到非直轄市的議員數額也比較少，加上他服務的面積非常的遼闊，我是滿認同剛才劉建國委員講的，我覺得三分之一的比例設計不合理，坦白講，二分之一我都覺得未必合理，可是你要怎麼去調整？我覺得這個應該要考量到地方，事實上，因為地方縣市議員的助理補助費已經24年沒有調整，某種程度你就是變項的減少他們服務地方的能量，而以各地方來講，其實民代的重要性，因為我當過臺北市議員，有時候民代就是幫政府快速的去探詢民意，幫人民解決政府看不到的問題，所以這個服務能量是很重要的。我真的要拜託內政部能夠從善如流，第一個，整體的經費要增加；第二個，比例的合理性，應該把非直轄縣市遼闊的面積與議員的總額數比較少的因素都考量進去。坦白講，我覺得二分之一都已經很勉強了，我都不認為是很合理了，但還是希望內政部能將這個部分納入考慮，以上。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員的質詢。","下一位請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.11846875,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.152218750000001,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.818468750000001,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.745968750000003,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.90909375,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.32659375,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.945968750000002,"end":31.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.97534375,"end":33.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.61659375,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":37.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.67909375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.78034375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.67034375,"end":41.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":49.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.057218750000004,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.38596875,"end":50.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.22971875,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.43034375,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.87221875,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.81096875,"end":148.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.88534375,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.32721875000001,"end":157.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.20034375,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.77346875,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.97534375,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.48096875000002,"end":173.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.53971875000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.02909375000002,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.58846875,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.20846875,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.44034375,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.45721875,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.03909375,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.74346875,"end":204.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.88471875000002,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.30221875,"end":210.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.23846875,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.14971875,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.00596875000002,"end":215.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.91284375,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.85846875000001,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.38034375,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.77596875,"end":265.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.77846875,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.27284375,"end":319.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.27221875000004,"end":319.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.44096875,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":319.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.14971875000003,"end":320.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.16659375,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.97659375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.97221875,"end":322.34346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.188,"end":29.603,"text":"主席有請司長請司長剛剛司長在回答有講到我目前這個對於直轄市縣市議員聘用公費助理有多少年沒調整過24年你知道這24年當中軍公教待遇調整了多少次"},{"start":32.668,"end":46.295,"text":"我看到數字是6次勞工基本薪資你知道調整多少次18次可是只有這個地方民意代表助理費用20年來都沒有調整24年沒有調整"},{"start":50.441,"end":68.157,"text":"那今天我覺得很高興就是說終於大家願意去面對這個問題因為我今天跟大家講一件事情過去要去調整誰的那個民意代表的一些助理費用都會有一些雜音但今天很好是因為是立法委員我們立法院草野各黨"},{"start":69.258,"end":94.717,"text":"大概都有蠻一致希望能夠調整所以基本上先講一件事情這些是我們看到實際上在地方各個議員他們這麼24年沒有調整助理費之下而業務不斷的加大繁重加上那個物價不斷的調高的各種因素好像這樣其實是有點增加目前地方民代的壓力甚至減少了他們的服務的品質"},{"start":95.638,"end":124.163,"text":"所以這個我覺得今天內政部也願意來去這個開始配合我們大家一起來研擬去調整他們的相關的一些金額我覺得是一個好的方向但有一件事情其實我們還認同剛剛劉建國這個委員剛剛講的就是說因為我之前其實有一段時間是在全台徒步環島所以我之前工作台北市議員但因為在全台徒步環島的時候我就有開始認知到一件事情"},{"start":125.003,"end":147.243,"text":"台灣的縣市服務員真的是遼闊然後我發現各地方的非直轄市縣市議員他有一些很重要的一些困擾一個很大的辛苦就是在我們過去把直轄市跟非直轄市這個議員的助理的補助只設定為三分之一嘛非直轄市對不對"},{"start":149.236,"end":174.312,"text":"這設定其實我會來走實際走我覺得其實是蠻不合理的施展你覺得為什麼會覺得不合理你猜猜看為什麼覺得不合理因為最主要是在非直轄市的部分因為畢竟它的這個地理環境也不太一樣因為它會非常廣泛那而且地方在服務的時候其實有很多地方我這樣考你啦"},{"start":175.851,"end":183.437,"text":"非直轄市我舉個例子你知道縣市面積來看前三大這個最大的縣市的面積是哪三個縣市"},{"start":187.333,"end":210.244,"text":"花蓮、南投跟台東啦。都很大啦。那你知道齁,對那種幅員遼闊的這些行政區域齁,地方的民代齁,就非直轄市的議員齁,他光有一樣東西就很可觀了,什麼東西你知道嗎?有一樣錢就花得很可觀了。婚紗洗錢。婚紗洗錢對,他也花得很可觀啦齁。"},{"start":211.317,"end":239.229,"text":"有錢對不對?因為他跑很遠欸我到幾乎到每個地方那個非直轄市的議員都講說光有錢就不得了了上山下海那個跑的那個距離真的是非常恐怖的可是你就看到直轄市跟非直轄市在過去定為只有三分之一但是當然以人口來講的話直轄市因為人口密集嘛服務的人數來講的話可能會比較多嘛對不對"},{"start":240.029,"end":253.959,"text":"但是你如果考量到說非直轄市他的議員數額也比較少加上他的服務的那個面積非常遼闊我是蠻認同劉建國委員剛剛講的我覺得這三分之一的這個比例設計是不合理的"},{"start":254.847,"end":281.01,"text":"二分之一坦白講我都覺得未必合理啦可是你要怎麼去調整我覺得應該要去考量到地方因為事實上如果這些我們地方的縣市議員他如果說今天你在24年不調整你某種程度是變相的來去減少他們服務地方的能量而在各個地方來講其實民代的一個重要性我到台北市議員是有時候就是幫政府能夠更"},{"start":281.73,"end":282.05,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":305.957,"end":317.904,"text":"委員的總額數比較少,因素考量進去,坦白講我覺得二分之一都已經很勉強了啦,我都不認為是很合理,但是希望內政部這部分可以納入考慮,以上。"}]}},{"id":"152353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf710efcf90fe85fbe8d827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac70650c22a74c080455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:51:21 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13:59:49","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":508,"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:59:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:51:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時51分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請吳次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：次長，這次民代支薪條例要修正，從現在算起、往前推，這個法律差不多多久沒有修正過了？"],["吳次長容輝：89年開始施行到現在大概24年了。"],["劉委員建國：對，就是2000年的時候，對不對？2000年的時候我剛好時任地方的市民代表，所以今天早上我有特別的感謝部長和召委把這個案子排進來，讓大家可以充分的討論來突顯一些問題，但是可想而知，2000年時民代支薪條例的修正是很大幅度的變動，但是次長知道是怎麼變動嗎？針對哪幾個部分有大幅度的變動？"],["吳次長容輝：委員是講這次嘛！"],["劉委員建國：沒有，2000年的時候，就是89年。"],["吳次長容輝：2000年、89年的時候，這部分我是不是可以請代理司長回答？"],["劉委員建國：誰可以講一下？怎麼樣的變動？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：89年主要是法制化，以前各地方的規定都不一致，所以民代支給條例把各地方都一致化，主要是這個部分。"],["劉委員建國：主要只有這樣而已嗎？不止哦！"],["鄭代理司長英弘：當然經費的部分有一些調整，譬如說縣市議員的部分原來各地方都不一致，目前是規定助理的補助費是8萬元，這個金額比當初各縣市在省的時代還要高。"],["劉委員建國：就這樣？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：市議員的部分也有調增。"],["劉委員建國：對，但是你知道鄉鎮市民代表是怎麼調整嗎？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：也是把它一致化。"],["劉委員建國：基本上，一致化應該不叫做「大幅的調整」，我講的是大幅的調整，對不對？你知道還沒有修正前，鄉鎮市民代表的研修費是多少嗎？修正完後又是領多少？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：目前我手上並沒有這方面的數據。"],["劉委員建國：如果說原有是「1」，後來變成「2」或「3」，這樣變動幅度是不是很大？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：是。"],["劉委員建國：那個時候鄉鎮市民代表是領1萬9,470元，修正完之後變成4萬9,470元，這樣變化大不大？非常大嘛！對不對？好，村里長的事務費全國統一，這也是那時候做了相關的調整，這些變動幅度都很大，我要把相關的歷史脈絡都再講一次。","最近幾年，就是這次還沒有修正之前，我們針對村里長的事務費也有酌加5,000元，對不對？好，這2次都是在民進黨執政的任內，為什麼我們要做這些事情？就以今天內政部提出來的，包含直轄縣市、一般縣市的助理費用要調高，這是其一嘛！對不對？還有為民服務費，我們也要做相關的調高，這在在都是考量現今的狀況，基本上，助理為了議員，包括我們的助理為委員做事情，其實它真正的目的還是為民服務，所以今天我們看到不合理的狀況，我們要做相關的調整，這個我要特別的感謝內政部。不過，這個調整的幅度似乎還有滿大的討論空間，原本直轄市議員的助理費是24萬元，內政部的版本是提高到30萬元。一般縣市議員的助理費是多少？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：8萬元。"],["吳次長容輝：8萬元。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們現在要把它調高變成14萬元，對不對？原本是差了3倍，24：8，就是1：3，現在變成1：2，應該是不到1：2，你們覺得這樣的調整是正確的嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我們做這樣的調整也是參考過其他的因素後設算的，包括人數的變動，上設上限、規定下限，這個大家一起來做通盤的檢討。"],["劉委員建國：次長，你們是根據什麼樣的變動去做這樣的調整？我覺得過去的狀況就已經很奇怪、不合理，怎麼會直轄市是24萬元，一般縣市就只有8萬元？現在你們又是根據什麼去把它調整到30萬元，然後一般縣市是14萬元？"],["吳次長容輝：我們一般是考量到需要聘僱的人數，這是一個。另外一個，直轄市和地方的薪資水準等等這些，我們都會考量。但是還有一個因素，當然我們也要考慮到地方的財政，大概這些因素都會考量在內。"],["劉委員建國：不對、不對、不對，難道過去沒有考慮到地方的財政？這一定有嘛！對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：是啊！都會有。"],["劉委員建國：那為什麼過去是1：3，現在是1：2？為什麼不能再高一點？就讓它真正的1：2。"],["吳次長容輝：這個時間上，因為民國幾十年前直轄市的薪資水準跟現在不太一樣。"],["劉委員建國：我的時間到了，沒關係，這有很多細節，我們再討論。另外，內政部還有一個修法版本，就是55個原住民區多有幅員較大，基於該村里受限於地理環境因素，服務居民需要耗費更多的交通時間在內的相關成本，所以你們針對原住民地區之鄉鎮及直轄市的原住民區，其村里長事務費每月再增加10%，對不對？這是根據什麼？"],["吳次長容輝：主要當然是考量到原住民區的幅員比較大，交通也比較不便，不像我們這些區域交通比較方便。另外，居住在山區的大多是散居，所以你要服務一個人可能要跑的距離就遠一點。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！那為什麼只針對原住民區，像一般縣市，我就簡單的講古坑鄉草嶺村，你知不知道那個幅員有多大嗎？偏遠或是偏鄉或是過去內政部所認定的一般貧瘠鄉鎮，其實那些村里長要照顧的幅員也不亞於原住民區，這個為什麼沒有納入參考？而且現在因為長照，所以村里長還要辦理長照知能認證和相關的授證，我要表達的是，既然你們可以看到這一塊，那為什麼另外那一塊你們沒有看到？如果你要做這樣的根據，我是提醒，連一般鄉鎮、幅員廣大的、偏遠的，你們也要把它納入到這次的討論裡，這樣才有道理。我剛剛是用議員的助理來比喻給你聽，這個也是你們內政部自己的提案，你們不能單純的只從原住民區去做修正和思考，要嘛！就全部一視同仁，只是要幅員廣大的，參照你們自己的提案內容，比例上都一樣就應該要比照辦理，我覺得這樣才有道理。"],["吳次長容輝：是，有一些非原民區的部分，當然有些是因為屬於比較偏遠，不過這還是要看每一個地方，因為每一個區域特性都不太一樣。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！那你們有看嗎？你們有去盤點嗎？你們有去調查嗎？我隨便找幾個鄉鎮來對比原住民區，你們現在每個月要增加他們10%的事務費。"],["吳次長容輝：如果要討論到這個，那可能就要比照有些單位去界定和定義偏遠地區，因為有些偏遠地區可能跟原住民區是一樣的。"],["劉委員建國：不是、不是、不是。"],["吳次長容輝：它的幅員或是散居是一樣的。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！我是給次長做一個參考，因為我的時間到了，好不好？我是覺得這個範圍、就是幅員廣大的這個部分，原住民的部分你們增加10%的事務費，其他地區你們不給他們，我覺得這會為德不卒，好不好？謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言。","下一位羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.72221875,"end":5.734718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.970968750000001,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.67534375,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.29971875,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.10534375,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.57284375,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.46721875,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.85096875,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.57221875,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.31409375,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.49534375,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.01409375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.874718750000003,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.15221875,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.49659375,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.398468750000006,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.59221875,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.359718750000006,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.148468750000006,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.78096875000001,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.93221875,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.94909375,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.65784375,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.69159375000001,"end":65.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.26534375,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":69.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.60659375,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.74159375,"end":69.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.89159375,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.71409375,"end":83.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.76471875,"end":84.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.78159375,"end":83.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.84909375000001,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.28784375000001,"end":95.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.08846875,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.83034375000001,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.45409375000001,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.83784375,"end":102.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.69846875,"end":105.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.80346875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.09034375,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.61346875000001,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.12346875,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.35534375,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.04284375,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.17784375000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.09221875,"end":126.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.67784375000001,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.93909375,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.70221875000001,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.73596875,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.03971875000002,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.90846875,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.18971875,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.71221875,"end":151.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.42909375000002,"end":153.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.25159375,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.96846875,"end":158.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.50409375,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.70034375,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.421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對不對還有衛民服務會我們要做相關的調高那在在都是在考量現今的一些狀況我想助理基本上為議員包括我們的助理為委員來做事情那其實他真正的目的還是衛民服務嘛"},{"start":208.365,"end":223.92,"text":"所以今天我們看到有些不合理的狀況所以我們去做這樣的相關的調整所以我在特別要感謝內政部不過這個調整的弧度好像似乎有蠻大的一些討論空間原有的直轄市的議員的助理是24萬"},{"start":226.001,"end":247.636,"text":"內政部的版本是提高到30萬那一般縣市的議員的助理是多少?8萬那我們現在把它調高變成14萬對不對原因有是差了3倍嘛24比8嘛就1比3嘛那現在是變成1比2不到啦應該是不到啦那你們覺得這樣的調整是正確嗎?"},{"start":250.705,"end":277.808,"text":"報告委員我想我們做這樣的調整也經過參考其他的因素來設算了包括說我們這個人數的這個變動我們刪除上限來規定下限這個大家一起來做這個通販建築市長是根據什麼樣的變動去做這樣的調整我覺得過去就已經很奇怪不合理的一個狀態了怎麼私家市就是24萬一般縣市就是8萬那現在你們是又根據什麼去調到30萬然後一般縣市是4萬"},{"start":279.409,"end":291.289,"text":"一般當然我們會考量到他這個要去併顧的人數這是一個另外就是說這個之下是跟這個地方的這個薪資水準等等這些都會做一個考量"},{"start":292.861,"end":308.721,"text":"但是還有一個因素當然也要考慮到這個地方的財政,大概這些因素都會考量財政。過去,難道過去沒有考慮到地方的財政,也一定會有嘛對不對?過去為什麼是1比3,現在為什麼是1比2,為什麼不能再高一點?"},{"start":309.622,"end":310.984,"text":"該村里受限於地理環境因素服務區需要耗費更多的交通在內的相關成本"},{"start":333.527,"end":343.567,"text":"所以你針對這個原住民地區之鄉鎮及自家市原住民區齁其村里事務會每月再增加百分之十嘛對不對這個是根據什麼"},{"start":344.793,"end":345.414,"text":"為什麼只有針對原住民區?"},{"start":365.215,"end":384.076,"text":"像我們一般縣市的像簡單講我講一個古坑鄉草嶺村你知道那個湖縣有多大嗎?在偏遠或邊鄉還是過去有我們內政部去認定的一般的平起鄉鎮其實那些村里長他要照顧的湖縣也不以為原住民區"},{"start":385.557,"end":414.08,"text":"這個為什麼沒有納入在參考裡面?而且現在的村里長因為有長照 所以他們還要辦理什麼長照認知 對不起長照資源認證還有相關的一些授證我要表達說 你們可以看到這一塊為什麼另外那一塊沒有看到?因為你如果要做這樣的根據嘛 我是提醒你連一般的鄉鎮 湖遠廣大的 偏遠的你要把它納入在這次的討論中"},{"start":415.123,"end":439.106,"text":"才有道理啦我剛剛是用議員的助理來比喻給你聽那我現在這個也是你內政部自己的提案喔那不能只有單純從這一個原住民區去做修正去做思考而已要嘛就全部一次同仁只要是服用廣大參照你們自己的提案的內容比例上都一樣就比照辦理我覺得這樣才有道理啦"},{"start":440.643,"end":464.447,"text":"我想這個有一些非原住民區的部分,有些當然是也屬下比較偏遠,不過這要看每一個地方的區域特性不太一樣。是啊,你們有看了嗎?你們有去盤點嗎?你們有去調查嗎?我隨便都可以找幾個鄉鎮來對比原住民區,你們現在要給他每日增加百分之十的事務費的這樣的一個比例喔。"},{"start":466.229,"end":479.355,"text":"如果要討論到這個可能就是要去比照這個有一些單位會去界定偏遠地區的界定定義有一些比較偏遠可能也跟原住民區是一樣的"},{"start":480.322,"end":481.223,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152352","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf712b4470e03da9a849827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac73cbf9333f49b214f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:42:27 - 13:50:41","影片長度":"00:08:14","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":494,"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:50:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:42:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":949,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時42分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體女士先生，有請次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長辛苦了。請教次長，我們現在全國村里長的事務費都一樣，有分別嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：村里長的事務費沒有分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：村里長是一樣的。"],["吳次長容輝：村里長一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有分六都的比較多，非六都的比較少？"],["吳次長容輝：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。但是有哪個地區的村長會比較多？里長比較多？"],["吳次長容輝：有一些直轄市就會比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啦，原住民地區嘛。"],["吳次長容輝：原住民地區有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一般是5萬元嘛。"],["吳次長容輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：原住民是55,000元，你認為這合理嗎？我認為合理，因為都會地區人口密集，村里長要做服務，雖然人多，可是他跑腿起來，其實不會很辛苦，你同意嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：是，這點我同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：原住民地區，誠如剛剛幾位原住民委員，包括伍麗華委員和幾位委員，都說我們原住民地區的村長很辛苦，你同意嗎？所以你覺得可以不一樣，不是因為人口比較多，是因為區域比較遼闊。"],["吳次長容輝：區域比較遼闊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：區域比較遼闊，負擔比較沉重，所以事務費給多一些。"],["吳次長容輝：增加10%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個邏輯你同意？"],["吳次長容輝：我同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下縣市議員的助理補助費，六都的部分從每月24萬元調到30萬元，人數從6至8人調到至少7人；非六都的，從每月8萬元調到14萬元，人數從2至4人調到至少3人。原來非六都的縣市議員助理補助費只有六都的三分之一，調了之後，還不到一半；人數也是一樣，就算調整之後，也不到一半！你覺得非六都縣市議員的助理補助費不到直轄市的一半，這樣合理嗎？為什麼會這樣？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，六都直轄市跟縣市的薪資水準本來就不太一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我跟你說，我們來看一下，你們是依照人口，我算給你看。以屏東縣跟臺南市來比比看，人口數我們少它一百萬出頭，議員席次我們少它2席，但是原鄉的部分，我們的人比較多，扣掉原鄉的議員數，再用非原鄉的人口去算，屏東縣平地非原住民的議員大概是平均每1萬7,400人就會產生一個；如果是臺南都的話，大概是3萬4,000人，所以我們的選民產生的縣市議員大概是「都」的一半，你們這樣算一算就可以算出這個，是不是這樣的原因？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣嘛！來，往下看，但是我們來看一下產生議員的面積，桃園都和新北都和我們屏東縣比起來，我們屏東縣的總面積比他們大很多，原住民地區先拿掉，你不要說我們拿原住民地區的行政轄區來灌水。扣掉原住民地區的選區，非原住民地區的選區，我們大概是60.3平方公里就需要有一個議員來服務，其他的像桃園和新北的服務範圍大概是20或30平方公里，剛剛不是有說為什麼提高原住民的村里長費用，因為他們的人口沒有那麼多，但是他們的服務區域很廣，所以村里長的事務費你們要多給他們，這個我支持，那為什麼非六都縣市議員的助理補助費要按照人口數來分配？為什麼？次長你剛剛不是講了，這些我們都支持啊！原住民地區幅員遼闊、人口比較少，相對更辛苦，按照這個邏輯，我們非六都的縣市議員服務的範圍更遼闊，雖然選民數比較少，就算服務的人沒有那麼多，但還是要比較，你看是不是這樣？"],["吳次長容輝：是，這個比較特別的是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比較特別？"],["吳次長容輝：不是，我是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：邏輯要一致。"],["吳次長容輝：對，我說的比較特別是屏東縣的確比較特別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：屏東縣比較特別，那以後能不能對我們特別好一點？"],["吳次長容輝：我要特別跟委員報告，比較特別的是，前陣子我們在修地制法的時候，假設地制法不修的話，那明年屏東縣就會掉好幾席、十幾席的議員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道。"],["吳次長容輝：假設這部分要用面積或人口來算，當然，這些因素都會考量在內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啦！所以我現在要向你表達，就算我們考慮到原鄉的村里長服務的人口比較少，可是因為它幅員遼闊，所以我們支持原鄉村里長的事務費要酌予提高來反映他的工作負荷。同樣的道理，非六都的縣市議員幅員比較遼闊，雖然選民人口比較少，但是你們給他們的助理配置、待遇的配置，人數和金額都不能相稱，所以這點可不可以檢討一下？"],["吳次長容輝：這個當然可以來檢討，因為有一些東西是人民比較集中……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！人口比較集中，比較好跑。"],["吳次長容輝：對啊！不用浪費太多的時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是浪費時間，是花的時間不用那麼多。"],["吳次長容輝：你跑行程的時間不會那麼多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛！但是要花很多錢，所以非六都的縣市議員，我們不是在幫民意代表爭取福利，因為民意代表，包括立法委員要配置助理才能為民服務。目前非六都的縣市議員，他們的待遇明顯的不如六都，助理的人數又比較少，我們是在幫他們的助理爭取權益，他現在請3個人，這3個人是不是比別人更累？比六都的助理還辛苦？我們要注重助理的勞工權益，這個你支不支持？"],["吳次長容輝：是，這個我們支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後一個，主席按鈴了。我們來看一下，上週五逕付二讀的有3個版本，這3個版本都是在討論地方民意代表費用支給和村里長事務補助費，大家的方向都一致，但是你知道嗎？目前只有3個案子逕付二讀，這3個案子分別是：傅崐萁總召、王鴻薇委員，還有民眾黨的新住民代表麥玉珍的提案，結果其他37個、包括我在內的提案，滿天的星星、37個人的提案，為什麼今天只有審查那3個super star的提案？為什麼他們可以在上週五的院會逕付二讀？次長，你知道這個結果會有什麼差別嗎？你知道嗎？這有什麼差別？他們3個人的提案比較特別、比較偉大，另外37個不分黨派的人都是滿天的星星，不足為道，是這樣嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：這個我們尊重立法院，不過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們尊重，我跟你說，我要趁這個機會跟大家說明，為了上週五逕付二讀的這3個版本，今天很多的提案委員都在地方上被民眾質疑，為什麼？因為上週五逕付二讀時，民進黨的提案沒有機會排入表決，依照立法院的慣例，你要反對別人的提案來支持自己的提案，這個天經地義，我們不是反對這3個委員他們對地方民意代表和村里長補助費的支持，我們的提案都在那37案裡。我在這裡也要拜託主席，未來這37案出委員會的時候，我們要爭取跟前面那3個案併案審查，不然這個案子通過之後，所有的功勞、所有爭取的都會改成是他們3個的版本，就是國民黨2個版本、臺灣民眾黨1個版本，其他37案裡面也有很多國民黨委員的版本，但是統統都放在這裡丟包，這個部分不是次長可以決定的，所以我要拜託主席，另外37案只要委員會完成審查，是不是可以做出附帶決議和其他那3案併案協商？要喬，大家就喬在一起，大家共同的來為基層，包括議員代表助理的勞工權益，還包括原住民在內，原鄉的村里長和非原鄉的村里長都應該要提高他們的支給或事務費，謝謝次長。主席，可以拜託嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝。","下一位張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","邱鎮軍、邱鎮軍、邱鎮軍委員不在。","黃仁、黃仁、黃仁委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","下一位劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.429718750000003,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.42909375,"end":20.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.88846875,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.192218750000002,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.16659375,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.71034375,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.58784375,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":33.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.27971875,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.000968750000002,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.31284375,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.93284375,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.94971875,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.96659375,"end":34.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.439093750000005,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.94534375,"end":35.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.23221875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.400968750000004,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.666593750000004,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.59846875,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.79221875,"end":45.711593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.73284375,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.01534375,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.196593750000005,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.344093750000006,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.50409375,"end":51.330968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.516593750000006,"end":51.735968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.157843750000005,"end":52.799093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.119718750000004,"end":54.908468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.49909375,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.08346875000001,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.81721875000001,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.80409375,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.29721875,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.34346875,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.97159375000001,"end":83.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.73096875,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.99971875,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.67471875000001,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.83846875,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.34721875000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.63346875,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.10971875000001,"end":119.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.60721875,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.32409375,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.26909375000001,"end":123.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.96096875,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.43346875,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.46721875,"end":125.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.17596875000001,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.82034375,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.57909375,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.22346875,"end":147.062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往下看"},{"start":172.25,"end":193.231,"text":"但是呢我們來看一下產生議員的面積啊桃園都跟新北都啦跟我們屏東縣比起來啦我們屏東縣的總面積比他大很多啦原住民的地區先拿掉你不要說我們來原住民地區的行政轄區來灌水扣掉原住民地區的選區非原住民地區的選區我們大概60.3平方公里就要有一個議員來服務"},{"start":194.392,"end":215.698,"text":"那其他的桃園的跟新北的服務的範圍大概20平方公里或30平方公里剛剛不是有說嗎?原住民的村里長為什麼?他人靠沒那麼多啊但是他開得很快啊所以村里長事務你們給他多嘛我支持啊那為什麼你們非六度的縣市議員下一頁為什麼你按照人口數來分配呢?為什麼?"},{"start":220.072,"end":235.998,"text":"市長你剛剛不是講了嗎?我們都支持啊原住民地區範圍廣闊人口比較少但是相對更辛苦按照這個邏輯我們非六都的縣市園範圍更廣闊雖然選民數比較少但是是不是應該就算沒那麼多也要比較啦你說怎麼樣是不是這樣"},{"start":238.102,"end":242.845,"text":"我想這個比較特別的是...比較特別?邰智英:「邰智英:「邰智英:「邰智英:「邰智英:「邰智英:「"},{"start":262.506,"end":285.418,"text":"那這一部分如果假設你用面積用人口算當然這都是在考量在內啦是啦因素都會考量在內啦所以我現在要跟你表達啦就算我傳你到科魯就是說原鄉的部分雖然人口比較少可是幅員遼闊我們支持讓原住民原鄉的村里長的事務費要左右提高反映他的工作的負荷同樣的道理"},{"start":286.118,"end":304.337,"text":"都跟非都的縣市議員,非都的縣市議員,幅員比較遼闊,雖然全民人口比較少,但是你們給他的助理的配置,待遇的配置,人數跟金額都不能相稱嘛,所以這點可不可以要檢討一下?這個當然可以來檢討,是說因為有一些東西是人類比較集中嘛,"},{"start":305.425,"end":306.786,"text":"非六都的縣市議員我們不是在幫民意代表爭取福利"},{"start":320.797,"end":343.171,"text":"我們因為民意代表報告立法院要配置助理才能為民服務那目前為六都的縣市議員明顯的待遇不如六都人數助理人數比較少我們是在幫他的助理爭取權益啊他現在請三個人是不是比別人更累比六都的助理還辛苦我們要注重助理的勞工權益你知不支持好最後一個我們來看一下這一次主席來讓你我們來看一下"},{"start":347.894,"end":371.753,"text":"難道這次全國目前在上週五近乎二讀的有三個版本是在討論地方民意代表的費用支給跟村里長的事務補助費大家的方向都一致但是你知道嗎目前只有三個案近乎二讀喔這三個案是分別是傅君祺總召王洪輝委員還有呢蔓玉珍民眾黨的新住民代表"},{"start":372.605,"end":375.349,"text":"結果37個提案今天在審查為什麼只有那三個superstar他們可以在上週五的院會幾乎惡賭"},{"start":386.161,"end":400.496,"text":"市長你知道這個結果會有什麼差別嗎?你知不知道有什麼差別?他們三個人的提案比較特別比較偉大另外37個部分黨派都是滿天猩猩不足為道是這樣嗎?這個我們尊重你們尊重喔?我告訴你趁這個機會告訴大家"},{"start":403.719,"end":417.804,"text":"為了今天在上週五近乎惡毒只有三個版本很多的我們的提案委員在地方上被民眾質疑為什麼?因為上週二近乎惡毒的時候民進黨的提案要在牌路表決沒有機會排"},{"start":419.184,"end":440.626,"text":"按照立法院的慣例你要去反對別人提案來支持自己的提案這是天經地義的但是我們不是反對這三個委員對於地方民意代表還有村里長的一個補助費的支持我們的提案都在37案裡面我在這裡也要拜託主席未來這37案出委員會的時候要爭取跟前面那三個案並案審查"},{"start":442.208,"end":458.302,"text":"沒有喔,這個案如果通過之後所有的功勞所有整齣的都改成他們三個版本而已就是國民黨兩個版本,台灣民進黨一個版本其他的包括37案當中有很多國民黨的委員的版本通通放在這裡丟包啦"},{"start":459.442,"end":485.287,"text":"這個部分不是我們次長可以決定的,也要拜託主席。這兩月37個案,總管委員審查是做出互待決議,並案跟其他的那三個案並案協商,要求大家悄悄作會。大家共同來為我們之前的包括議員、代表,他們的助理,還有包括原住民在內,原鄉的村里長跟非原鄉的村里長,他們的一個應該給的資金,這樣的一個事務費應該提高。"},{"start":489.25,"end":489.31,"text":"謝謝市長謝謝總嘉賓委員"}]}},{"id":"152351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71ac7ae44cf13863fa827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7f89920774d13967f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"13:37:50 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13:42:23","影片長度":"00:04:33","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":273,"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:42:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:37:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（13時37分）主席，請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：次長辛苦了。我們先看目前美國的平均月薪，你知道我們目前的平均月薪嗎？如果以勞工來說。"],["吳次長容輝：勞工現在好像是四萬多元。"],["盧委員縣一：對，48,000元，如果算總收入應該是58,000元。目前美國的平均就是3,000美金，最少是2,500美金，也就是臺幣76,000元到9萬元左右，別的國家是這樣。我們再看從1990年一直到現在的年收入比較，從1990年到現在為止已經將近增加一倍，從9萬美金變成現在的17萬美金。這張表最主要是讓次長先知道我等一下要講的理由是什麼。","我們現在都是用最低的標準在看，比如現在縣市議員公費助理費補助8萬元，如果要請3位助理，可能就不符最低薪資，其實基本上邏輯都是適用最低的門檻。2,410元是從1月1日到現在所欠的最低薪資的部分，所以我想如果今天通過，或者是明年開始實施，這個不足的部分我希望能夠先補足，因為這可能是議員自掏腰包補足助理的基本生活，可以嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我想這一部分因為每一個委員僱用的人數不一定一樣。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，這是表達我的意見。","如果按照我的想法，直轄市議員助理補助費增加到32萬元，縣市議員助理增加到16萬元，現行規定分別是6到8位、2到4位，如果用所謂的勞工基本薪水，大概直轄市請不到7位，縣市請不到4位，所以我才會希望能夠至少是32萬元、16萬元，這是最低門檻！我一直要強調的是這一點，好不好？","在法制化的部分，公費助理各項補助，包括加班、資遣、職災補助，我希望加班要有上限，而且應該可以實報實銷。像我之前在當公務員的時候，就規定一個月不能加班超過多少個小時，比如算20小時好了，應該是這樣，然後實報實銷。如果是因為路程的關係，加了油、買了車票，我覺得應該要補助，尤其是偏遠地區。請次長再考慮，可以嗎？","另外，感謝內政部採納本席的意見，原民地區村里長事務費是55,000元，當然之前很多委員都已經說按照以後的生活基準再調整。","其次，我希望出國考察能夠強制執行，如果不能出國，在本國旅遊也可以。因為理由是希望讓村里長能夠休息，他們只要在部落或是在在地的話，根本就沒有時間休息，從早上6點開始morning call一直到晚上，基本都在為民服務。強制他們休息，可以促進他們的身體健康跟家庭和諧，我希望是這樣。我剛剛有聽到，你最近有把保險調升到1,000萬元，我就不用再提。","我的修正案已經列印出來，修正草案將各級民意代表為民服務費分別調高為4萬元、2萬元跟5,000元，我希望這是基本的。剛剛有很多委員說原住民地區有些村莊不是只有一村，要管好多個部落，這樣的等級要怎麼去算。有一個方法，就是離車站多遠、離醫院多遠，以那個等級來算會比較清楚。阿里山很遠，大家都知道很遠，你怎麼去算它很遠？要用這個邏輯去算級距，才比較好算出來。希望內政部可以採納本席的意見，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員，委員的意見我們都尊重。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢。下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.98346875,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.214718750000003,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.822218750000001,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.83909375,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.22221875,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.09534375,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.49596875,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.465968750000002,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.28846875,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.42721875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.58659375,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.32909375,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.48034375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.602218750000006,"end":44.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.462843750000005,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.27284375,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.065343750000004,"end":54.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.65534375,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.157218750000006,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.844718750000006,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.38846875,"end":63.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.56096875,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.37034375,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.33221875000001,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.12096875,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.51284375,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.90909375000001,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.50784375,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.02596875,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.75096875,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.84221875,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.55471875,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.28034375,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.38971875,"end":107.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.45284375000001,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.75659375000001,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.63784375,"end":112.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.21971875000001,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.82284375,"end":117.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.03784375000001,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.48846875000001,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.59721875,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.95471875,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.74346875,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.48159375,"end":141.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.08471875,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.89034375,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.72971875000002,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.18034375000002,"end":152.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.64846875,"end":153.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.16721875000002,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.34846875000002,"end":156.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.42409375,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.98471875,"end":166.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.24534375000002,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.94096875000002,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02"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call一直到晚上他們基本都在為民服務"},{"start":213.331,"end":230.104,"text":"那強制他們休息也可以促進他們的身體的健康跟家庭的和諧我希望是這樣那剛才你看我有聽到你是已經調整到一千萬我就不用再提了那下在下一頁那我的主條的就是我的修正案已經有已經有列印出來了那在最後一頁"},{"start":231.96,"end":251.436,"text":"那修正這4萬2萬跟5千我希望這個是基本的那我們知道原住民地區剛剛有很多委員說我們原住民地區有些村莊不是只有一村他還管了好多個部落這樣的一個等級你要怎麼去算有一個方法就是你車站多遠你醫院多遠在那個等級來算的話你會比較清楚"},{"start":252.284,"end":252.484,"text":"盧縣一委員的質問"}]}},{"id":"152350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7158c39f94f26e72be827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac70ee47c72731b73975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:31:10 - 13:37:42","影片長度":"00:06:32","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":392,"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:37:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:31:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":877,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時31分）謝謝主席。本席再邀請次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。今天討論的議題，我記得每一屆我都會提出來，尤其是村里長。村里長的部分，當時本席提出四項，結果通過了第一個事務費，當時是定45,000元，隨後在上一屆我們再提，就改為5萬元。第二個，也就是健康檢查，當時先通過這兩項。可是本席的提案，還有兩項沒有通過，第一個就是春節慰問金，第二個是出國考察，也就是村里長的考察費。","我今天非常歡喜，我看到行政院也好，藍、綠、白大家都希望，因為現在村里長的壓力非常大，我在臺中市，臺中市升格為直轄市，但是我看全國總共有7,748個村里長，他們真的很辛苦，一天幾乎24小時都非常辛苦。人家說：貓兒掠過戶橂也有里長的事，就是如此。你拚命的點頭，也知道他們的辛苦。","第一，春節慰問金1.5個月，大家都是非常認同，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果我們在這個會期通過，什麼時候要發呢？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，謝謝委員對村里長事務費的關心，通過的話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候要發？"],["吳次長容輝：明年的1月1日。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年的1月1日發。"],["吳次長容輝：才開始施行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：開始執行，你是要到年底才發，還是114年初就發？"],["吳次長容輝：春節慰問金是在春節的時候發，不是1月份，就是2月份左右吧。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在114年的農曆過年就對了。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那我們確認時間；1.5個月，大家也確定，那誰出錢？"],["吳次長容輝：這就是大家剛剛還在討論的，但是我們認為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：中央出錢，中央出錢！"],["吳次長容輝：不是中央出錢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：春節慰問金理當由中央來買單！"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全部加起來才五億多元，理當由中央買單，這是本席的意見。因為各縣市的財政不一，我們要充分的尊重所有村里長，到目前為止7,748個村里長的慰問金，這五億多元應當由中央買單，你認同嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我想這一部分，在我們當初要修正這個版本的時候，因為這涉及到地方自治法跟財政劃分法的相關規定，我們認為這一筆錢應該由地方來支應。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：錯！因為地方自治法以及財政劃分法本來就不公平，春節慰問金不是薪水，所以理當要由中央來出。本席一定要把我這個立場跟我們中國國民黨的立場告訴你，你要接受，你要接受！"],["吳次長容輝：委員的意見，我們尊重，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝你一句尊重。","接下來本席要來跟你討論，也就是在地方議會裡的助理人員薪資，21年沒調整。"],["吳次長容輝：是24年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：24年沒調整。真的，議會的公費助理都快請不到人了。因應目前的現況，不管是通膨、物價指數的增高，沒有理由不提升，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：是啊，這是我們這一次修法的原因。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也是你們修法的原因。"],["吳次長容輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個大家都非常的關心，我們也希望待會在逐條討論的時候朝這個方向，特別在村里長的部分。本席還提到一點，也就是村里長沒有薪水，但是因公傷亡的應該要給予協助。講補助很難過，但是應該要協助，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：這個部分，我們有幫他們辦保險。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不夠啊！"],["吳次長容輝：我們現在保險從500萬元拉到1,000萬元。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再去盤點好不好，不夠啦！"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因公傷亡的，一定要給村里長協助，這是最基本的，對不對？你去盤點，現在保險從500萬元，到現在是多少？"],["吳次長容輝：1,000萬元。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去盤點，看他們的單項，不是數額的問題。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：保險就是要讓村里長可以領，最好不要領到，萬一要的時候，他可以領到，而不是只有美化放在哪裡，他領不到啊！"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去盤點那個內容，我覺得這點非常重要，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你盤點好，詳細的數據資料給本席，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後再一分鐘就好。本席的提案，議會公費助理適用勞基法的規定，如加班費、勞保、健保、勞退金、雇主負擔的部分、勞工職災的保費，也應該要比照軍公教人員年終工作獎金酌給春節慰勞金。這個部分，本席覺得非常重要，希望在討論的時候能夠納入，好不好？這些最基層的第一線，從這一次的疫情就可以知道，我們的村里長跟鄰長是多麼、多麼、多麼的辛苦，他們所做的事情有多少，你應該認同吧？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們一定要好好的謝謝他們，把他們法制化，尊重他們，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：是，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的發言。下一位請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.328468750000003,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.28096875,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.765968750000003,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.79971875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.21721875,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.71034375,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.02096875,"end":37.071593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.56034375,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.60659375,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.84284375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.31784375,"end":59.19471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.38034375,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.92784375000001,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.87659375,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.63034375000001,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.86596875000001,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.32534375,"end":88.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.65846875000001,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.98659375000001,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.50034375000001,"end":102.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.67596875000001,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.19034375000001,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.96659375,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.75534375000001,"end":122.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":124.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.48409375000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.42471875000001,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.74784375000002,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.89096875,"end":140.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.64596875,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.04659375,"end":144.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.98721875,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.07159375,"end":145.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.79659375,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.60659375,"end":151.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.41221875000002,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.54721875,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.06596875,"end":156.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.91784375,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.49159375000002,"end":159.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.87096875,"end":162.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.56659375,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.56159375000001,"end":172.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.50596875000002,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.26534375,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.29346875000002,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.68971875000003,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.56284375,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.43971875000003,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00"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中央出錢不是中央出錢春節未婚金你當由中央來買單"},{"start":150.704,"end":170.951,"text":"全部加起來才5億多李當由中央買單這是本席的意見因為各縣市的財政不一我們要充分的尊重我們所有的村里長所以李當7748村里到目前為止應當這5億多要有中央買單你認同嗎"},{"start":173.547,"end":175.569,"text":"錯!因為我們的地方自治法裡頭以及我們的財政劃分法本來就沒公平"},{"start":194.565,"end":222.157,"text":"所以李當春節慰問金他不是薪水他不是薪水李當要由中央來出本席把我這個立場跟我們中國國民黨的立場一定要告訴你你要接受你要接受委員的這個意見我們尊重了好謝謝你一句尊重接下來本席要來跟你討論也就是我們在地方議會裡頭這一些助理人員"},{"start":223.561,"end":250.826,"text":"我們的村里長21年沒調整 對不對那我們的這個議會21年沒調整24年沒調整 真的在議會裡頭的公費助理想要請不上因為目前的現況不管是所有的通膨物價指數的增高沒有理由不提升 對不對是啊 這一次我們這一次修法的原因"},{"start":252.179,"end":279.369,"text":"也是你們修法的原因嗎那這個是大家都非常的關心我們也希望待會在主條討論的時候我們要朝這個方向那特別村里長的部分本席還提到一點也就是村里長他沒有薪水但是他因公傷亡的應該要給予協助講補助是很難過但是應該要協助這一部分我們有保險對不對我們幫他們辦保險"},{"start":281.688,"end":299.832,"text":"我們現在保險從五百萬拉到一千萬 再去盤點好不好 沒辦法啦 英工商網的應該要給村里長 一定要給他們協助 這是最基本的嘛 對不對 你去盤點 你現在有五百萬 到現在多少 一千萬 你去盤點 看他們的單項 不是數額的問題"},{"start":307.854,"end":309.435,"text":"你去盤點那個內容我覺得這一講非常重要好不好你盤點好"},{"start":325.204,"end":343.582,"text":"詳細的順利資料給本席好不好那最後在這個在1分鐘就好在我們的議會裡頭本席的提案公費的部分呢就是公衛會公衛助理適用的勞基法裡頭的規定如加班費勞保健保"},{"start":345.049,"end":357.138,"text":"老退金、雇主負擔的部分、勞工職災受的保惠應該要比照公教人員年終工作獎金卓育給予未老金"},{"start":361.721,"end":361.861,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152349","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152349","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf714a41d516e41fe978827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac714c232c93ffab7e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:23:02 - 13:31:05","影片長度":"00:08:03","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":483,"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:31:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:23:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":837,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時23分）謝謝主席。麻煩請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，很多委員都關心村里長的相關費用以及我們民代議員助理的費用，內政部也提出行政院的版本，我先糾正一下，並不是我們現在才在討論這個，第九屆就已經有委員提出，第十屆也有委員提出，可是當時的內政部部長或是相關的代表講什麼呢？那個時候都講說地方財政困難，都講說地方各縣市議會的財源不一，地方財政困難針對的是村里長，地方政府財源不一針對的是議員的助理，所以那個時候都凍著不動，現在行政院既然有提出版本，行政院版的草案將直轄市議員助理費從24萬元提高為30萬元，縣（市）議員是從8萬元提高到14萬元，所以你們說直轄市議會每年會增加2億7,000多萬元、縣（市）議會增加3億8,000多萬元支出，那這財源怎麼來？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這財源……"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府？"],["吳次長容輝：地方政府。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我又要再請教一下，村里長的年終慰問金、春節慰問金，陳建仁院長那時候也喊出來並且說初估會增加5億多元，那這財源怎麼來？"],["吳次長容輝：因為這都屬於地制法的地方自治，由地方編列。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說現在是中央請客、地方買單！"],["吳次長容輝：這不是中央請客。"],["洪委員孟楷：這怎麼不是中央請客、地方買單？我們每一個委員的版本可能更多，在可能有更多的情況下，但至少你行政院今天要負責任啊！你們既然提出行政院版，行政院就應該有財源出來，不是嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：現在我們提出……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是你要有各縣市不一的補助？本席剛剛聽到很多委員也在請教你財源的部分，你有說看各縣市情況，那會不會造成有些縣市有拿到補助，有些縣市拿不到補助？"],["吳次長容輝：所以為什麼要看縣市財政狀況的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不對，這樣就大小眼啊！中央怎麼會對各縣市有大小眼之分呢？有些縣市的財源是地方政府自己籌措，有些縣市的財源是中央補助給地方，讓地方去發。中央可以這樣發錢，我看這個縣市跟我比較好，或是這個縣市的顏色跟我比較相近，會不會又變成是藍綠之分？"],["吳次長容輝：這個不會啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼不會？"],["吳次長容輝：一般補助款或是統籌分配款，有一個機制在分配，財政劃分法就有了。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的標準是什麼？次長，你的標準是什麼？等一下主席宣布我們下午可能會逐條討論，你在逐條討論的時候，一定要告訴我們，清楚明白講這個財源怎麼來，以及你的機制是什麼。"],["吳次長容輝：是，我想這個都有一個固定的機制。現在我要報告的是，根據地方制度法和財劃法的規定，這些都屬於地方的自治事項，相關預算就由地方來編列。如果有縣市財政比較困窘，我們就用另外一個機制，收支差短來補貼。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果照次長你剛才的講法，那之前第九屆、第十屆擋著就沒有意義啊！如果你說我們尊重地方，第九屆的時候，委員也好，議員也好，大家都有提出來，為什麼那時候你們要擋？你們那時候說地方財政困難，考慮地方的標準，所以不願意讓它過。"],["吳次長容輝：這個不是擋的問題，沒人會去擋這個東西。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在提出行政院的版本，你告訴大家，你自己劃的部分，年終慰問金5萬元乘以1.5個月，是比照公務員的1.5個月，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：參考嘛。那你參考這部分，結果財源還是一樣要由地方政府籌編，那這樣之前你們擋的意義是什麼？"],["吳次長容輝：以前也不是擋，以前考量到地方財政關係，這幾年的財政狀況有改善啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我先讓你，我不要扣你帽子，但是我先告訴你，說實在話，第九屆、第十屆各黨團都提出版本，就只有行政院一直沒有提出版本，所以大家會覺得卡就卡在行政部門嘛。我都不講政治考量喔，我都不講內政部長跑到地方視察活動，然後突然就宣布，大家好像看到聖誕老公公來發紅包了！結果不是啊，你只是講中央願意通過，有春節慰問金、議員助理的薪水提高，至於財源怎麼來，你們自己去想辦法，這樣不是又把責任推給地方嗎？這樣子哪一個地方政府會不接受？如果你是要讓地方政府編列財源，那之前第九屆為什麼就不通過？因為責任還是在地方政府身上啊，不是嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：當初的考量，為什麼會沒通過，不是因為擋的關係，這是一個比較嚴肅的議題，也許是政治的議題，但不能用政治的思維來處理啦。"],["洪委員孟楷：這當然是一個嚴肅的議題，就是因為是嚴肅的議題，所以我們才不要用政治思維來想。所以我們才會覺得奇怪，怎麼會內政部部長上任一年多的時間，都沒有處理，到520要卸任了，而且攤開名單一看，新娘不是我，內政部部長已經有新的人選出來了，賴清德總統已經指派新的人選了，我才在地方的行程中說要通過，這樣會讓大家覺得很奇怪。"],["吳次長容輝：不是，這個議題部長一直有在處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們才會講，既然你今天負責任提出行政院版，我肯定有提出行政院版的負責，你提出行政院版要負責任，連同財源一起提出。我今天沒有說我們委員的版本都要有財源喔，委員的版本有更高的，大家爭相提高，24萬元不夠，我要48萬元，或者要多少錢。當然提出這個版本，可能中央行政部門還要再去算算盤，但是至少你們行政院版本就要有財源，而不是行政院版本出來，還是要讓地方付錢啊！不是這樣嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：按機制本來就是地方出錢，我們現在制度是這樣，你不能說今天訂在法令上都不用……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果按機制是讓地方出錢，那你就不用審查了。為什麼你要審查？你們過去一直強調地方財源困難，各縣市議會財源不一，所以你們不願意放，不是嗎？次長，這個問題非常嚴重，而且這是中央負責的態度，如果今天中央只通過，但是沒有準備財源，很抱歉，你們都玩假的，而且這樣就真的坐實了中央請客、地方買單！我覺得這絕對不是我們應該要推動的。","村里長很辛苦，我們大家都認同，地方議員的助理很辛苦，也因為過去二十幾年都沒有調漲，大家也都希望調漲。但是既然中央提出這樣的版本，你們就應該要負責財源啊！這才是負責任的做法。"],["吳次長容輝：我想這個案子……"],["洪委員孟楷：等一下逐條討論的時候，我也請求主席，一定要讓次長先報告到底你們現在規劃的財源是什麼，不是說看縣市，還是沒有先排。照理講，今天要逐條討論，你們就要先提出來，報告裡面就要寫清楚，而不是讓大家還在詢問。以上，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":10.240343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.645343750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.62784375,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.336593750000002,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.79034375,"end":27.840968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.891593750000002,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.92534375,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.680343750000002,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.992218750000006,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.447218750000005,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.57721875,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.69096875,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.104093750000004,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.322843750000004,"end":51.297218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.44909375,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.51971875,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.38846875,"end":72.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.49221875,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.67784375000001,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.80846875,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.17034375,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.74409375,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.58346875000001,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.97534375000001,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.59971875000001,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.19034375000001,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.53846875,"end":105.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.45346875000001,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.43221875,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.46596875,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.63471875,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.15784375000001,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.20846875000001,"end":106.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.92971875,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.18659375,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.47284375000001,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.73846875000001,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.74659375,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.05659375000002,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.99596875,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.96596875,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":152.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.85096875000002,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.42721875,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.05409375000002,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.38721875000002,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.67784375000002,"end":193.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.60159375,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.57034375,"end":193.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.51534375,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":211.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.87971875000002,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.63409375,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.30221875,"end":236.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.58034375000003,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.79471875000002,"end":244.347218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這樣說大小眼啊 你們中央怎麼會對各縣市有大小眼之分呢 有些縣市的財源是地方政府自己籌措 有些縣市的財源是中央補助給地方 讓地方去發 這樣就變成說中央可以這樣子發錢 我看這個縣市感覺比較好 還是這個縣市顏色可能會比較相近"},{"start":173.208,"end":179.73,"text":"那會不會又變成藍綠之分?這個不會啊!怎麼不會?那你的標準是什麼?你的標準是什麼?因為等一下主席也宣布說我們下午可能會有主條討論啊那你在主條討論的時候一定要告訴我們清楚明白講說我們的這個財源怎麼來以及你的機制是什麼啊?是"},{"start":194.551,"end":215.632,"text":"我想這個都有一個固定的機制現在我要報告的就是說在地方制度法跟財務法的規定那這些都屬於地方的自治事項那這些相關的預算就由地方來編類那如果假設你的財政比較困窮呢我們就另外一個機制收支插短來補貼如果說趙市長你剛剛講法的話那你之前第9屆第10屆黨籍就沒有意義啦"},{"start":217.814,"end":244.084,"text":"你之前第9屆第10屆如果說你可以講是說啊這都是地方我們尊重地方那第9屆的時候委員也好議員也好大家都有提出來為什麼那時候你們要打你那麼說講是說就是地方財政困難你們考慮地方的標準所以說你們不願意讓他過那你現在讓他過你現在提出來行政院的版本之後你告訴大家那你們自己畫的這一個部分"},{"start":245.485,"end":260.749,"text":"年終會問金5萬乘以1.5個月那是比照我們公務員的這個1.5個月嘛對不對參考嘛那你參考這部分結果你這財源還是一樣要地方政府籌編那這樣之前你們黨的意義是什麼"},{"start":261.721,"end":282.621,"text":"以前也不是黨啊以前你跟我們考量的地方財政關係這幾天的財政狀況有改善啊我先來讓你我不要扣你帽子但是我先告訴你啦說實在話第9屆第10屆各黨團都提出版本啊就只有行政院一直沒有提出版本所以說大家會覺得卡就卡在行政部門嘛"},{"start":283.666,"end":305.98,"text":"那你現在我都不講說政治考量喔我都不講是說內政部長跑到地方的實查活動然後突然間宣佈了大家如果說聖誕老公公來了要發紅包了就不是啊你只是講的是說我們中央願意通過有春節慰問金有議員的薪水提高那裁員怎麼來你們自己去想辦法"},{"start":307.743,"end":308.023,"text":"主席"},{"start":325.57,"end":346.443,"text":"當初的考量為什麼會沒通不是因為黨的關係我相信這個東西這個議題是一個比較嚴肅的議題當然是嚴肅的議題就是因為是嚴肅的議題所以我們才不要政治思維來想所以我們才會覺得說奇怪怎麼會內政部部長上任了一年多的時間這都沒有處理到要卸任了520了而且"},{"start":348.004,"end":371.174,"text":"看開名單一看新娘不是我了內政部部長已經有新的人選出來了賴清德總統已經指派新的人選了我才用地方的行程去講說那我們要來通過那這樣子會讓大家覺得奇怪所以我們才會講你既然你今天要負責任提出行政院版我肯定有提出行政院版的負責"},{"start":371.934,"end":400.261,"text":"那你提出行政院版你要負責任連同裁員一起提出啊而不是說你的行政院版我今天沒有講說委員的版本你都要有裁員哦委員的版本有更高的大家會爭相24萬不夠我要48萬我要多少錢那當然提出這個版本可能行政部門中央還要這些算算盤但你至少你行政院的版本裡面你們就要有裁員啊而不是你們行政院版本出來你還是要讓地方付錢啊"},{"start":401.181,"end":407.546,"text":"不是這樣嗎?那為什麼你要審查?你們過去一直強調 過去一直講說地方財源困難然後各縣市議會財源不易 所以說你們不願意放不是嗎?市長"},{"start":423.615,"end":439.451,"text":"等一下主條都這個這個這個問題非常嚴重而且這個是中央負責的態度如果說今天中央只通過但是你沒有準備裁員那很抱歉你們就玩假的而且這樣就真的坐實了中央請客地方買單"},{"start":440.902,"end":464.878,"text":"我覺得這絕對不是我們應該要推動的村里長很辛苦我們大家都認同地方議員的助理很辛苦也因為這過去20幾年都沒有調漲所以大家都希望調漲但是既然中央提出來這樣的版本你們就應該要負責裁員啊這才是負責任的做法啊我想這個案子等一下主條的時候我也請求主席一定要讓次長這邊報告到底你們現在規劃的裁員是什麼"},{"start":465.518,"end":466.059,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"152348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71916b2f92a3910043827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7b3f1ac033b9891ed5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:15:58 - 13:22:56","影片長度":"00:06:58","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":418,"end_time":"2024-05-08T13:22:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T13:15:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":807,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時16分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。上次在質詢內政部部長的時候，我知道部長今天好像有事就先離開了，沒有關係，有公務大家可以諒解。目前針對平均地權條例，本來私法人是禁止買住宅的，可是授權給內政部在一些例外的狀況下可以允許他買，但我們發現內政部在審核這些例外狀況的時候實在是荒腔走板，有錢人透過他設立的投資公司、一人公司向你們申請買宿舍，內政部竟然也核准了，這種誇張的狀況從3.2億的豪宅甚至到5.6億的文華苑，我上次質詢過部長，部長說這個不對，不應該許可，現在問題來了，如果按照現行的辦法，它本來就不應該許可，請問現在內政部打算要怎麼辦？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員關心，針對這一部分，我們現在在檢討許可辦法，那剛剛委員……"],["黃委員國昌：次長，我先打斷一下。這裡就是兩個部分，修法的部分，等一下我會進一步請教，現在問的是之前不應該准卻准了，接下來內政部打算怎麼處理？"],["吳次長容輝：已經決定的部分，依照行政程序法裡面的規定，這個應該是不會把它撤銷或廢止。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼？"],["吳次長容輝：因為依法當初已經核准人家了。"],["黃委員國昌：依照行政程序法，違法的行政處分要不要撤銷？"],["吳次長容輝：當然撤銷。"],["黃委員國昌：部長也說這不應該嘛！那這為什麼不是違法的行政處分？"],["吳次長容輝：這個要看當初購買時，我們核准人家時它是不是合法的。"],["黃委員國昌：事情非常簡單啦！一人公司買宿舍，一個人住，這個叫宿舍嗎？這個符合當初我們在平均地權條例要開的例外條款嗎？為什麼我認為這是一個違法的行政處分，因為它根本就不符合例外所應該允許的狀況，內政部卻允許了！所以我認為是違法的行政處分。上一次我請教林右昌部長的時候，他也認為這個不應該准，這是林右昌部長講的喔！內政部在面對這個問題的時候，不能夠在國會一手說這個不應該准，結果轉身回到內政部又說既然准了就准了，這個我們也沒有辦法處理，這個態度不對吧？"],["吳次長容輝：我們之所以現在要去檢討修正這個辦法，也是因為當初訂定的這個許可辦法的確存有瑕疵，規範不足，所以你說……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，你把不應該准這件事現在解釋成「不是我們不應該准，只是因為規範不足」，這是兩件不一樣的事。次長，你應該可以區別吧？「不應該准卻准了」跟「因為規範不足所以我們准了」這兩個是不一樣的事嘛！所以現在內政部的立場是什麼？林右昌部長上次在這邊講的不應該准是在講空話嗎？是在講空話嗎？因為這大家都很關心啊！非常多人都很關心啊！不應該准的卻准了，結果我們內政部軟趴趴啊！是碰到這些什麼大富翁、大富豪、大財團，膝蓋很軟，沒有辦法執行法令嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：也不是啦！就是因為發現到有這樣的漏洞了，所以我們現在才要把它補起來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以從內政部的立場來講，你們認為之前的行政處分沒有問題，是法規有問題，是嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：不是，當初我們也沒有考慮到說當初的規範不足，就是一個人的公司怎麼可以去買豪宅……"],["黃委員國昌：發言時間有限，我尊重接下來的委員，但我覺得立場要講清楚。第一個，對內政部今天這樣的態度我不同意。我為什麼不同意？不應該准的東西卻准了你們就要處理，而不是林右昌部長在這邊跟全國民眾說這不應該准，結果今天的說法變了，變成了是因為之前的規範有問題，我們來修規範，至於之前准的怎麼辦？也沒有打算要怎麼辦，這是我的立場。","第二個，就你們現在目前預告修正的私法人買受供住宅使用之房屋許可辦法，今天早上我跟OURs的朋友跟關心居住正義的朋友開了一個記者會，我們開記者會的訴求非常的清楚，你們即使修訂了這個辦法也無法解決問題，為什麼沒有辦法解決問題呢？包括你們現在將員工人數從1人修正為5個人就可以，那當初陳泰銘買文華苑時的員工是6個人，按照你們新修正的辦法就可以啦！最嚴重的事情是什麼？最嚴重的事情是你們根本沒有列管追蹤使用狀況的查核機制，沒有列管使用狀況的查核機制那等於是空的嘛！等於是空的嘛！你事後像現在一樣發現原來它不是宿舍，你也沒有辦法怎麼樣嘛！你甚至沒有機會去了解它根本就不是拿來當宿舍用嘛！所以今天我們跟OURs開記者會的訴求很清楚，這件事情由新的部長聆聽所有關心居住正義跟平均地權條例的公民還有公民團體的心聲再做決策，不要在林右昌部長下台以前匆匆通過。可以嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：因為現在許可辦法還在公告當中，我想應該不斷的會有意見進來……"],["黃委員國昌：交給新的部長決定，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：時間上這個大概也會到下個部長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以交給新的部長決定，好不好？下台以前不要匆促的過這個沒有用的修正辦法。"],["吳次長容輝：不會啦！這個還會有意見不斷的進來，我們還要去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好。謝謝！"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.332843750000002,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":14.138468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.47596875,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.68159375,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.78534375,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.979093750000004,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.673468750000005,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.56221875000001,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.210968750000006,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.90221875,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.26909375000001,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.04471875,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.76159375,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.80721875,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.23659375000001,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.24471875,"end":91.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.85596875,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.19721875,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.59346875,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.35159375,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.40159375,"end":113.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.50284375000001,"end":112.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.99221875,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.27471875,"end":117.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.27409375,"end":119.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.35409375,"end":120.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.45096875,"end":121.95284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.83034375000001,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.70284375,"end":130.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.33534375000002,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.95971875,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.39409375,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.79471875000002,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.97596875000002,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.69721875000002,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.42159375,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.42409375,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.06471875,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.12346875,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.68034375000002,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.37159375000002,"end":170.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":171.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.42596875,"end":175.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.63221875000002,"end":181.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.47096875,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.09534375,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.15284375000002,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.87409375000001,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.69096875000002,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.59784375,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.00159375,"end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麻煩有請次長好 前處長我也好次長 上次在質詢內政部部長的時候我知道今天好像部長有事就先離開了吧沒有關係 有公路大家可以諒解大家目前針對平均地權條例 我們發現的現象是說本來司法人是禁止買住宅的"},{"start":32.87,"end":55.715,"text":"司法人是禁止買住宅的那授權給內政部在一些例外的狀況可以允許他買但我們發現內政部在審核這些例外的狀況的時候實在是荒腔走板有些人透過他設立的投資公司議員公司申請向你們買宿舍你們竟然內政部也核准了"},{"start":57.442,"end":79.559,"text":"這種誇張的狀況從3.2億的豪宅甚至到5.6億的文化院我上次執行過部長部長說這個不對這個不對這個不應該許可那我現在的問題來了如果按照現行的辦法他本來就不應該許可現在內政部打算要怎麼辦"},{"start":82.337,"end":82.357,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":110.171,"end":131.355,"text":"因為依法你當初已經核准人家了先提一下依照行政程序法裏面違法的行政處分要不要撤銷對啊那部長也說這不應該嘛那這為什麼不是違法的行政處分這個當初你要看他當初這個購買的時候我們核准人家當初他是不是違法事情非常簡單啦是"},{"start":132.311,"end":156.366,"text":"議員公司買宿舍一個人住這個叫宿舍嗎這個是符合當初我們在平均地權條例要開的例外條款嗎為什麼我認為這是一個違法的行政處分因為他根本就不符合例外所應該允許的狀況被政府卻允許了所以我認為是違法的行政處分我上一次"},{"start":157.638,"end":180.982,"text":"請教林二昌部長的時候他有認為說這個不應該準這個是林二昌部長講的喔但內政部在面對這個問題的時候你不能夠在國會一手說這個不應該準結果轉身回去到內政部的時候說啊既然準了就準了這個我們也沒有辦法處理這個態度不對吧來請教次長"},{"start":181.562,"end":186.444,"text":"我先提一下齁你把不應該準的東西現在把它解釋成不是我們不應該準只是因為規範不足"},{"start":204.841,"end":230.422,"text":"這是兩件不一樣的事啊市長你應該可以區別吧是不應該準確準了跟啊是因為規範不足所以我們準了這兩個不一樣的事嘛所以現在內政部的立場是什麼是李耀昌部長上次在這邊講說這不應該準是在講空話嗎是在講空話嗎因為現在大家都很關心啊是非常多人都很關心啊"},{"start":232.313,"end":257.348,"text":"不應該準的卻準了 結果我們內政部軟趴趴啊是碰到這些什麼 大富翁 大富豪 大財團膝蓋很軟 沒有辦法執行法律嗎 請教次長也不是啦 現在就是因為我們發現到有這樣的漏洞了嘛所以我們現在才要把它拼起來嘛 所以從內政部的立場來講 你們認為之前的行政處分沒有問題 是法規有問題 是嗎"},{"start":259.312,"end":281.203,"text":"是當初我們也沒有去考慮到說你現在當初的規範不足就是你讓一個人的公司怎麼可以去買豪宅時機有限我尊重接下來的委員但我覺得立場要講清楚第一個第一個對內政部今天這樣子的態度我不同意我為什麼不同意不應該準的東西確準的你們就要處理"},{"start":282.13,"end":302.803,"text":"而不是李耀昌部長在這邊跟全國民眾說這不應該這不應該准結果今天的說法變了今天的說法變成了是說那個是因為之前的規範有問題我們來修規範那至於之前准的怎麼辦也沒有打算要怎麼辦這是我的立場這是我的立場第二個"},{"start":306.755,"end":322.844,"text":"就你們現在目前遇到修正的司法人買售公住宅使用的房屋許可辦法今天早上我跟奧斯的朋友跟關心居住正義的朋友我們開了一個記者會我們開了記者會的訴求非常的清楚"},{"start":323.624,"end":353.127,"text":"你們即使修訂了這個辦法沒有辦法解決問題那為什麼沒有辦法解決問題包括了說你們現在員工的人數從一人修正為五個人就可以那當初陳泰銘滿文華院他是六個人啊按照你們修正的辦法就可以啦最嚴重的事情是什麼最嚴重的事情是你們根本沒有列管追蹤使用狀況的查核機制啊"},{"start":353.683,"end":364.771,"text":"沒有列管使用狀況的查核機制那等於是空的嘛等於是空的嘛你事後像現在一樣發現啊原來他不是宿舍"},{"start":365.851,"end":393.897,"text":"你有沒有辦法怎麼樣嘛?你甚至沒有機會去了解他根本就不是拿來當宿舍用嘛所以今天我們跟奧斯開了記者會我們的宿舍很清楚這件事情由新的部長由新的部長聆聽所有關心居住正義跟平均地權條例的公民還有公民團體的心聲再做決策不要在林佑昌部長下台以前衝衝通過可以嗎?"},{"start":395.001,"end":395.282,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"152347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71d46bb1d833163fa2827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7059e63f136e9659f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：次長好！今天大家來審查討論我們的民代條例，看起來朝野都共同支持，特別要感謝的是很難得看到訂定這個條例這麼多年以來，第一次看到行政部門主動提出而且是大幅的調升，在這個部分，我看到物價指數年增率上揚，歷年的基本工資調整級距拉大很多，我們也看到這些年來公務人員的調薪，特別是蔡英文總統任內就連續調了3次，在這種種的條件之下，我們這次能夠主動提出這樣的修法，我是非常肯定也非常感動，但事實上這個大幅提升確實也不是沒有道理，過去我也不斷的接到這一方面的陳情，也透過公文也好、質詢也好，多次的反映民意。我特別要講的是每一次我們提出這樣的意見，比如上一屆提出村里長部分，其實我有將調高村里長事務費一事列入我第一次參選的政見當中，表示地方這樣的聲音期待很久，很高興上一次我們已經把村里長的事務費調高了5,000元，可是這一次我們依舊還是要提出。","我在這裡要談的是關於地方民代的部分，因為地方民代不僅限於現行條文提到的議員和村里長部分，我的版本特別提到要把鄉（鎮、市）民代表部分也做一個處理，原因是我看到目前地方這一些代表們，大至災害小至地方的喪葬補助，其實他們是很忙的，可是我覺得對我來講更重要的是，其實在我們的鄉民代表會、在我們的鄉也有很多的地方自治事項，可是沒有助理，我們沒有給他們支持，所以我們很羨慕日本，日本有很多什麼東川町、古川町等等，以鄉為自治單位做的地方創生比如過去我們談的社區營造等，他們都可以透過這樣的地方自治條例，把整個鄉還有每個村落都可以規劃得非常好，相當的具有公民素養素質，所以我一直覺得這個部分其實是非常重要的，但是我看到我們這次的修法不知為何獨漏這些鄉（鎮、市）民代表，所以我想請問次長，如果我們增加3萬元或6萬元的助理費，大概會需要增加多少費用？很困難嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員對於我們地方民意代表跟村里長事務補助費的關心，跟委員報告這一次為什麼我們在鄉（鎮、市）民代表部分沒有提到助理，因為鄉（鎮、市）民代表是屬於比較小選區、多席次的，所以我們認為他現在還不需要有助理，所以這部分我們……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我剛才講的這一些，您覺得有沒有道理？"],["吳次長容輝：這些代表在各鄉（鎮、市）當然也有他的功能，不過他服務的範圍與縣（市）議員相較是小一點，所以我們就沒有把這個規範在內，但是我們有把他的為民服務費用拉高到5,000元。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想他們是非常需要助理的，我覺得對我們整個的行政體系也好或者是地方自治系統也好，其實這個是很基礎、很重要的單位，我會對此繼續關心、繼續質詢，希望未來也有更多的版本、更多的立法委員關心，也希望我們內政部要主動的來提出。好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後我要講的就是這一次也特別提出修正案，因為我過去也一直質詢，不斷的強調，就我所知，我們原住民一個村最高的是管10個部落，那個幅員多遼闊啊！他們以前都說希望可以配備摩托車，因為他們自己的車輛磨損率很高，所以我一直呼籲希望能針對原住民地區給予多一點加給，這一次我很高興看到對於村里長的部分，內政部願意來支持也提出這樣的修法版本，包括編列給他們春節慰勞金還有年終工作獎金的部分，我都覺得非常的好。我本來想要問內政部的態度為什麼會有這樣的一個轉變，其實我是覺得非常高興的，但因為時間的關係，我只想問地方政府對這個增加的費用有沒有辦法支應？我們打算如何來補貼？"],["吳次長容輝：對於中央或者地方如何去支應這一筆錢，早上特別有講過，這個會考量財政的狀況，收支短差的部分會有一些配套。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以您的意思是可以支應的？會有配套？"],["吳次長容輝：不是全都由中央支應，比較窮、財政比較差的才會考量。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們已經有規劃了？"],["吳次長容輝：我們會跟財政部研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們今天就要討論了，我相信你們應該有規劃吧？不可能隨便拿出一個版本來。"],["吳次長容輝：它本來就有一個機制在。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是有機制的，所以這個地方我們是不用去擔憂的，因為很多人擔心啊！"],["吳次長容輝：財政等級本來就有劃分，收支短差應該怎麼補貼本來就有機制。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是你們有去做規劃，有做配套嘛，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分我想在我們這個定案以後，財主單位就會去規劃後面的這些財政。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們就儘快來定案。謝謝次長！"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","下一位請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.56159375,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.77221875,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.92409375,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.632843750000003,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.20596875,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.347843750000003,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.33909375,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.391593750000006,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.36596875,"end":48.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.06971875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.554718750000006,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.82034375,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.70471875000001,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.87659375000001,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.06159375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.31846875000001,"end":110.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.98409375000001,"end":118.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.51034375,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.92721875000001,"end":138.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.70971875,"end":144.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.05471875,"end":146.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.89409375,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.25596875000002,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.24534375000002,"end":170.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.58659375000002,"end":175.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.76721875,"end":177.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.97784375,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.48346875000001,"end":187.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":190.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.07284375,"end":220.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.66721875000002,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.92409375000003,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.46346875,"end":256.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.13971875000001,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.68721875000003,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.88909375000003,"end":265.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.84596875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.02534375,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.75096875,"end":279.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.27409375,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.69846875,"end":292.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.71846875,"end":299.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.24034375,"end":308.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.87721875,"end":309.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.29471875,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.07096875,"end":313.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":315.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.09971875,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.84596875,"end":366.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.38284375,"end":375.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.49971875,"end":375.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.55034375,"end":383.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.84034375000005,"end":385.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.72596875000005,"en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Kacaw委員：111年3月30日本席擔任內政委員會召委時安排了「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」的審查，當時本席質詢的投影片特別提到村里長的事務費21年都未調整，但這21年來物價指數成長24.5%，從物價上漲等等理由，所以當時內政委員會做了決議將其調整為5萬元，並經立法院三讀通過。我們看到今天很多立委都提出版本，行政院版雖然還沒有付委，尚未進入委員會併案審查，但是你們也呼應了這個民意需求，特別提出了行政院版，這些都是應該要去考量的部分，我們的地方民意代表包含了直轄市議員、縣（市）議員還有鄉（鎮、市）民代表及區民代表，所以這個部分應該要一併的去檢討。","本席認為我自己的條文要更為精進是因為原住民族地區尤其是我們原住民的部落村非常大、非常遼闊，鄰與鄰之間、家戶與家戶之間的距離都相當相當的遠，在討論村里長的部分時對此相關的部分也應該有所考量，要隨著物價指數來做調整，所以這是應該要去考量的部分。當然除了村里長之外，鄉（鎮、市）民代表也應該與原住民的部分一樣，我一直認為現在的鄉（鎮、市）民代表或者是縣（市）議員、直轄市議員去比照行政主管的職等，譬如說鄉（鎮、市）民代表比照課長是八職等一階，縣（市）議員則比照局、處長是九職等。"],["吳次長容輝：現在是十職等。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在是十職等，但是我們都知道公務員的職等會一年一年調升，對不對？像直轄市一樣，局長為十三職等並分一階、二階、三階還有年功俸，可是我們都沒有，再做幾十年也是一樣，所以這個部分也是一個必須要去思考的地方。我們再來看直轄市議員的助理，今天很多都談到助理的部分，而這也確實是必須去考量的，因為從過去到現在都沒有調整，相關的人數、總額也都必須去考慮，希望在我們逐條審查時，內政部及相關的部會對這部分給予最大的支持。謝謝！"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員，這部分我們都有涵蓋在內。"],["主席：謝謝我們鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.341593750000001,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.67471875,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.551593750000002,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.38534375,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.832218750000003,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.009093750000005,"end":34.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.94534375,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.282218750000006,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":54.587843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.110968750000005,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.94096875,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.89346875000001,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.63159375000001,"end":72.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.40346875,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.88409375,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.75284375000001,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.16159375000001,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.76034375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.33784375,"end":90.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.90284375,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.69159375000001,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.16346875,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.26409375,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.98471875000001,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.80721875,"end":111.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.89534375000001,"end":112.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.49846875,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.45159375,"end":116.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.02534375,"end":119.21909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.14721875000001,"end":121.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.64909375,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.80909375,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.88471875,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.58471875,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.33534375000002,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.66409375,"end":135.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.06034375000002,"end":137.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.62971875,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.81096875,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.44346875000002,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.17721875,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.39596875,"end":149.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":150.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.88909375,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.47534375,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.85471875000002,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.57159375,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.19971875000002,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.30909375000002,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.24971875,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.17784375000002,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.42159375,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.09221875,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.37471875,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181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{"start":231.107,"end":257.651,"text":"但是公務員他我們都知道啊公務員都會一年一年調啊對不對會調啊像那個這個直轄市一樣啊局長十三指等他有一階二階三階還有到年功課嗎我們都沒有啊再做幾十年也是一樣啊所以這個部分也是一個必須要去去思考的地方"},{"start":259.298,"end":286.7,"text":"那我們看這個我們就講直轄市議員的助理今天很多都是談到助理的部分助理的部分確實也是一樣必須去考量從過去到現在也都沒有去調然後這個相關的人數和總額都必須去考慮所以這個部分希望這個在我們的"},{"start":287.799,"end":301.236,"text":"有逐條審查的時候內政部及相關的部會應該給最大的一個支持以上謝謝謝謝委員這一部我們都有把他涵蓋在內好謝謝我們鄭天財委員的執行"}]}},{"id":"152345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf716500b47773d2ff746811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac7fbeea9806ed55d9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:28:45 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12:39:32","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":647,"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:39:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T12:28:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時28分）謝謝宜瑾召委，有請院長。"],["主席：好，有請院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：范雲委員好。"],["范委員雲：院長午安，今天想跟您請教的也是故宮的責任，關於經濟弱勢族群的文化近用權。本來是要先問您，有前立委針對故宮說，女性出任院長，故宮就不是國寶了，我看到秀寳委員有問過嘛！您已經回應了，當然不是這樣，但是我想請問蕭院長，很高興您公開表達對性別平等的支持，那您知道我們過去有幾位女性擔任過院長嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：11位院長中間有3位女性擔任過院長，而且都是非常傑出的女性。"],["范委員雲：對，沒錯，其實11位裡面，連同你講的已經有3位了，我們算了一下數學，已經超過四分之一，只是未達三分之一，所以這個前立委這種公開的性別歧視，希望以後院長或故宮有機會就要告訴大家，其實我們有超過四分之一，未達三分之一是女性的故宮院長，請大家不要忽略他們不分黨派對於故宮的貢獻，我想這個部分也跟院長……很高興您知道，我們的確是有超過四分之一，還沒到三分之一的女性院長。","您的報告裡面有提到多元跟文化的平權，想請問院長，對經濟弱勢群體，我們看了一下故宮的門票政策，發現這裡面有針對年齡的、針對身心障礙者、針對學生，還有一些國際博物館等榮譽會員這些，可是並沒有針對經濟弱勢群體的照顧，不知道院長覺得現在這樣子就足夠了嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，現行針對年齡未滿18歲，或是學生、65歲以上……很可惜65歲的話是平日免費，但是……"],["范委員雲：對，我這邊有看到是平日。"],["蕭院長宗煌：但是假日的話要半票。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以這個部分是有點怪，這是因為老人福利法的關係，身心障礙者跟陪同者……本國學生的話，其實我們包括國外的學生持學生證都可以有優惠。當然對於弱勢族群……"],["范委員雲：經濟弱勢。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，針對經濟弱勢族群的話，故宮有一個「故宮遊藝思─學子嗨FUN參訪北部院區」，南院的話也有「百萬學子悠遊博物館專案計畫」的方案，基本上我們用自己的一點預算再跟外募的經費，我們邀請高中職以下的學生、弱勢、偏鄉，可以由故宮來支付費用，邀請他們到故宮，甚至到相關的館所去參訪，這個部分我們是用專案的方式辦理。"],["范委員雲：對，用專案當然也是一種方法，可是是不是最好的方法？我們做了一個國際博物館的比較，我們辦公室去研究了一下一些主要的博物館，以法國的羅浮宮跟奧賽博物館，你在它的網站上就看得非常清楚，羅浮宮還有奧賽博物館針對待業者，就是失業在找工作的人其實就可以免費看，這兩個博物館對法國領最低生活保障金者，也都可以免費看，因為經濟上的貧窮其實就是最需要支持的，150塊錢對他來講可能還是覺得無法支出，他們的文化近用權不應該只在你們特定方案的保障下。","我們再看一下，如果不是法國的話，其實西班牙，還有我們辦公室有查到像希臘非常有名的雅典衛城博物館，這我也去看過，非常值得進去看，那都是有支持這些經濟的弱勢群體。您剛剛講到的某一些，我們辦公室有看到，故宮一年其實有5天是免費，可是你看一下德國柏林，它有博物館日，是德國所有的70個博物館都參加了，它們每個月就有一天是免費全面開放，所以我想，針對這個文化平權的事情，雖然我們故宮有一些了，可是比起這些國際級博物館，我覺得我們還是缺乏很多的考慮。一方面並沒有針對經濟弱勢，有一個免費的做法，如同我剛剛講的，法國的羅浮宮跟奧賽博物館，還有剛剛其它國家的。","另外，針對鼓勵大家多進博物館的這種……就是德國這個每月一天的，一年等於就有12天，我們補起來只有5天，我們辦公室還幫你查了，我說那我們要看看是不是人太多，後來發現其實你們假日……112年非假日北部平均是來3,664人，假日是6,300人，如果你開放免費的時候，其實1月1號是8,000人，元宵節超過6,000人，5月18、9月27是五千多人，只有10月10號國慶日有一萬三千多人，所以這個事實上是OK的，好像並沒有這麼難，反而是大家不好記，你要我記說哪一天故宮是全面免費，我還記不得。像德國是在有一個星期天，跟每月第一個星期天全面免費比起來，我覺得故宮可以考量一下這些國際級博物館的這種開放，因為總不能只看一個翠玉白菜嘛！要常常進去多看幾個，對於經濟弱勢者而言，我覺得不管是提升，或者是薰陶，或者是享受，這才是真正的文化平權。","我們辦公室還找了很多，還有墨西哥國家人類學博物館，也是有週日免費入場等等。英國的這個也是我常常想要提的，事實上英國只要是國家出錢的常設展就全面免費，只有特展才需要付費，我們可以想想，博物館的成本跟收入當中，這個門票占的比重到底是多少？如何在一個博物館可以運作的情況下，讓更多人能夠一而再再而三地進去學習、瞭解我們的國寶，我想這個是我希望故宮可以做到的。","我今天提的，就先跟我們剛剛講的奧賽博物館、羅浮宮看齊，我們是不是先針對經濟弱勢族群，提出門票的優惠政策，好不好？是不是你們可以去做一個評估，然後給我們一個報告呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。跟委員簡單報告，就是因為故宮有規費法的關係，我剛剛講連65歲的老人，我們希望他假日來都免費，基本上來講財政部都不同意……"],["范委員雲：規費法？"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以我們只能用專案的方式，然後就是透過另外一個機制……"],["范委員雲：所以您說是財政部不允許你這麼做嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，因為我們的門票收入是要繳庫的。"],["范委員雲：門票收入占你們總收入的百分之多少？占你們總營運成本的百分之多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：占我們總收入的話，早期是占到八成，現在差不多是占六成，因為我們現在的文創收入比較高。"],["范委員雲：應該是說，你們的總成本裡面，門票收入占的成本是多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：總成本倒沒有算，因為故宮的總成本沒有辦法算。如果算年度預算的話……"],["范委員雲：故宮總成本不能算嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：年度預算可以算，但是總成本不能算，因為如果把文物都算成總成本……"],["范委員雲：那年度的成本呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：年度的預算可以算。"],["范委員雲：你們現在的門票收入是占你們年度預算的百分之多少？"],["林主任美瑤：是歲入嗎？"],["范委員雲：年度預算嘛！一年我們經營北部這個故宮花多少錢？門票收入占多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我的印象過去大概是占到八成，現在的話是……"],["范委員雲：不是，你剛才講的是收入，你們是非營利，本來就沒有什麼收入啊！我說你的總營運成本，有多少是國家補貼？多少是靠這個門票？"],["蕭院長宗煌：門票都繳庫。"],["范委員雲：那我想請你算一下這個概念嘛！我經營一個故宮，可是因為門票的使用率沒有到這麼高，為什麼大英博物館這麼做、為什麼德國的博物館這麼做、為什麼別人針對中低收入這麼做，一定有它的考量啦！"],["林主任美瑤：報告委員……"],["范委員雲：你們連這個都不知道，所以就沒有公共性的……就是文化平權的概念啊！"],["林主任美瑤：不是，報告委員，我是主計室主任，我姓林，我們113年度因為有一個新故宮計畫的整擴建，所以每一年度有關支出的部分都是不一定的，113年我們歲出是26億，扣掉新故宮計畫變13億，這就是我們本預算的部分，但是人事費就占差不多快一半了。"],["范委員雲：所以你剛剛還是沒有辦法給我一個簡單的數字啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：13億的話，我們去年的門票收入多少？"],["林主任美瑤：去年門票收入……"],["范委員雲：你剛剛有一個26億，現在又有一個13億，到底是26億還是13億？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有，因為那個包括公建計畫。"],["范委員雲：沒關係，我再……"],["蕭院長宗煌：去年13億，門票收入3億，這樣就有很簡單的算法。"],["范委員雲：如果用26億來講的話，其實比較起來，我想不管是26億或13億中的3億，是不是可以把這個成本估算，跟您剛剛講的相關法規、為什麼不能這麼做，給我們辦公室一個書面報告好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，因為有13億是包括新故宮公建計畫，那個不是經常性的預算。"],["范委員雲：好，如果你優待經濟弱勢族群，你會損失多少門票，是不是也可以一起估算一下？"],["蕭院長宗煌：那個應該微薄啦！可是財政部就……"],["范委員雲：沒關係，財政部哪條規定你跟我們講一下，好不好？我們去瞭解。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝您。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，院長請回。","接下來我們請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","我們請邱志偉委員，邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","我們請林楚茵委員，林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","我們請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","我們請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有林楚茵委員、陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":5.734718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.68346875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.88596875,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.40346875,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.81596875,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.34034375,"end":187.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.79034375,"end":137.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.62096875,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.01096875000002,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.83284375000002,"end":211.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.76159375,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.76846875,"end":425.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.24284375,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.02471875000003,"end":459.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.05846875000003,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.89596875,"end":459.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.90846875000005,"end":459.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.26284375,"end":465.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.84034375000005,"end":467.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.57846875,"end":466.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.16471875,"end":470.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.99534375,"end":476.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.11721875,"end":474.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.97346875000005,"end":483.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.42409375000005,"end":482.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.34784375000004,"end":486.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.54971875,"end":494.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.72596875000005,"end":495.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.97471875,"end":503.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.48034375000003,"end":499.49721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.49721875000006,"end":501.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.31096875000003,"end":509.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.59659375,"end":511.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.95096875,"end":511.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.03096875,"end":522.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.73034375,"end":525.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.2865937500001,"end":534.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.48721875,"end":552.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.7547187499999,"end":559.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.26846875,"end":563.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.82096875,"end":561.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.7278437500001,"end":563.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.4028437500001,"end":577.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.3203437500001,"end":583.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.3447187500001,"end":588.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.9097187500001,"end":590.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.9722187500001,"end":595.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.72284375,"end":599.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.1440937500001,"end":599.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.5322187500001,"end":605.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.56534375,"end":609.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.9440937500001,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.18721875,"end":620.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.58784375,"end":621.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.97596875,"end":627.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.9834687499999,"end":635.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.66596875,"end":638.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.58096875,"end":642.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.28971875,"end":639.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.4834687499999,"end":642.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.7153437500001,"end":644.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.08659375,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.79096875,"end":645.46596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.24,"end":5.381,"text":"有請院長院長午安今天想跟您請教的也是故宮的責任關於經濟弱勢族群的文化禁用權本來是要先問您有錢立委針對"},{"start":25.928,"end":45.484,"text":"故宮說女性出任院長故宮就不是國寶了那我有看到秀寶委員有問過你已經回應了當然不是這樣我想請問蕭院長就是很高興您公開表達對性別平等的支持那您知道我們過去有幾位女性擔任過院長嗎"},{"start":47.171,"end":75.504,"text":"11位院長中間有3位擔任過院長而且都是非常傑出的女性對沒錯其實我們11位裡面因為連同你已經有3位了我們算了一下數學已經超過四分之一只是未達三分之一所以這個前立委這種公開性別歧視的希望以後院長或故宮有機會就要告訴大家其實我們有就是超過四分之一未達三分之一是"},{"start":76.224,"end":80.247,"text":"女性的故宮院長,請大家不要忽略他們不分黨派對於故宮的貢獻。"},{"start":93.955,"end":104.343,"text":"今天我想針對您的報告裡面都有提到多元跟文化的平權想請問院長對經濟弱勢群體我們看了一下故宮的門票政策發現這裡面有針對年齡的針對身心障礙者針對學生還有一些國際博物館等榮譽會員這些可是沒有針對經濟弱勢群體的照顧"},{"start":121.636,"end":135.644,"text":"那不知道院長覺得現在這樣子您覺得足夠了嗎跟委員報告就是說現行的年齡未滿18歲或是學生那65歲以上很可惜65歲的話是平日免費"},{"start":136.544,"end":138.466,"text":"本國學生的話其實我們包括國外的學生持學生證都可以"},{"start":156.325,"end":175.733,"text":"經濟弱勢族群故宮有一個海灣故宮百萬鞋子由故宮然後南苑的話也有故宮的一個方案那基本上我們用自己的一點預算然後再跟外幕的經會我們邀請高中職以下的學生弱勢偏鄉"},{"start":176.593,"end":187.072,"text":"然後可以由故宮來知乎會用然後邀請他們到故宮然後甚至相關的那個管所去參訪這個部分的話我們用專案的方式來辦理"},{"start":188.424,"end":208.058,"text":"對,用專案當然這也是一種方法可是是不是最好的方法我覺得我們就是做一個國際的博物館的比較那我們辦公室去研究了一下一些主要的博物館以法國的羅浮宮跟奧賽博物館你在它的網站上就看得非常清楚羅浮宮還有奧賽博物館針對"},{"start":211.681,"end":217.406,"text":"這兩個博物館對於法國領最低生活保障金者也都可以免費看因為經濟上的貧窮其實就是最需要支持的可能最覺得150塊錢對他來講可能還是覺得無法支出的那他們的文化禁用權不應該只在"},{"start":238.203,"end":238.723,"text":"西班牙、西拉、雅典的衛城博物館都支持經濟弱勢群體"},{"start":258.473,"end":258.493,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":279.821,"end":302.79,"text":"菅義偉議員"},{"start":302.87,"end":302.89,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":321.262,"end":345.188,"text":"後來發現其實你們假日一百一十二年非假日平均是來三千六百六十四人北部假日六千三那如果你開放就是免費的時候其實一月一號是八千人元宵節超過六千五月十八九月二七五千多人只有十月十號國慶日一萬三千多人所以其實這個"},{"start":347.228,"end":347.829,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":365.629,"end":365.649,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":389.725,"end":415.41,"text":"英國,這個我也常常想要提的,英國事實上是全面免費,只要是國家的出錢的,它只有常設展,不是,常設展全面免費,只有特展才需要付費。那我們可以想想,博物館的成本當中跟收入當中,那這個門票到底佔的比重是多少?那如何在一個博物館可以運作的情況下,讓更多人"},{"start":417.27,"end":443.946,"text":"能夠一而再的再三的進去學習了解我們的國寶我想這個是我希望故宮可以做到的那我今天提的就先從一個我覺得可以跟我們剛講的奧賽博物館羅夫宮看齊的我們是不是先針對經濟弱勢族群提出門票的優惠政策好不好那是不是你們可以去做一個評估然後給我們一個報告呢"},{"start":445.547,"end":469.781,"text":"跟委員簡單報告就是因為故宮有規會法的關係規會法的關係我剛講連那個65歲的老人我們希望說他假日來都免費基本上來講財政部都不同意所以我們只能用專案的方式只能用專案的方式然後就是說透過另外的基金所以您說是財政部不允許你這麼做嗎對因為我們門票收入要繳庫的"},{"start":471.262,"end":478.269,"text":"門票收入佔你們的總收入的百分之多少?佔你們的總營運成本百分之多少?應該是說你們的總成本裡面門票收入佔的成本是多少?"},{"start":488.109,"end":506.508,"text":"總成本?總成本倒沒有算因為故宮的總成本沒有辦法算因為如果算年度預算的話故宮總成本不能算嗎?年度預算可以算但是總成本不能算因為總成本的話如果把紋路都算成總成本年度的成本年度的預算可以算年度預算你們現在收入在你們的年度預算裡面百分之多少?"},{"start":513.197,"end":514.839,"text":"您的總營運成本有多少是國家補貼,多少是靠這個門票?"},{"start":537.253,"end":552.259,"text":"請你算一下這概念嘛我經營一個故宮可是因為門票它使用率沒有到這麼高那跟據說為什麼大英博物館這麼做為什麼德國的博物館這麼做那為什麼別人針對中低收入這麼做一定有他的考量啊"},{"start":552.819,"end":557.58,"text":"報告委員我是主席是主任我姓林我們113年度其實我們因為有一個新故宮計畫的整括件所以每一年度有關支出的部分是都不一定的那在113的部分我們是稅出是26億那扣掉新故宮計畫變13億"},{"start":578.336,"end":579.497,"text":"13億的話 那我們去年的門票收入多少?"},{"start":591.971,"end":592.311,"text":"26億來講的話其實比較起來的話"},{"start":610.046,"end":610.987,"text":"13億是包括新故宮工建計劃,那個不是精誠性的預算"},{"start":628.063,"end":628.544,"text":"財政部規定"}]}},{"id":"152344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71525b318e0b2404236811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac7f8515a4deb48f6755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:16:46 - 12:28:26","影片長度":"00:11:40","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":700,"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:28:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T12:16:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":881,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時17分）謝謝召委，請蕭院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：院長好。首先很感謝上一回我們在質詢故宮的時候，我們講到故宮的百年計畫，院裡面的同仁也早在4月初就給我相關的計畫內容，非常感謝，相較於其他有一些部會經常漏掉，我想院裡面在這個部分的作為其實還蠻有效率的。","我今天針對幾點來跟院長做一個瞭解跟溝通，當然早上很多委員講到一些事，也都是一些重點，大家一直遲遲沒有等到院長的任命，當然對我而言，就朋友來講，我是常常還能夠看到你，我也蠻高興的，但是在這個文化上我們總會覺得……前幾天行政院辦了一個新兵訓練，我看了一下，故宮沒有，那可能就會引起大家很大的一個想法，究竟是因為故宮太easy了，所以在質詢的部分可能不需要再去做一些強化，還是說未來會有像剛才其他委員的一些懷疑跟質疑，那是我最不想見到的，就是談到故宮組織定位、位階問題，所以我很期待不會是像後者，但是像前者的話也不是太樂見，不過院長總之是經驗非常的豐富，所以還是談到說，像前幾天的新兵訓練或者是先前的一些任命，故宮相較來講是比較不那麼政治敏感度的內閣成員的公布，相較比較獨立也不是一件壞事，我很期待就像您講的，您專業的回應確實是代表了如果真的是這樣子的話，我們的文化還有希望，但如果是本席剛才的一些想像或者是猜測，或者是今天其他委員問的這些問題，文化上就會讓我非常的擔心，所以就謝謝貴院，然後也對於院長的任命，賴準總統就職所剩下的日期不多，我們期待能夠早些知道，當然我們也很希望能夠繼續看到院長。另外，我對於任命的部分希望能夠趕快，組織的部分也期待，雖然不是院長能夠做的。至於剛才幾位委員講的降級，萬萬不行。","翠玉白菜的事，我們就不想再講了，不過我想跟你講我和朋友間發生的狀況，翠玉白菜確實很重要，因為今年我有2位波蘭的朋友來到臺灣，然後他們一定要去故宮，我說：「好，有機會帶你們去故宮，那你有沒有最期待的，想要看什麼？」他說：「我們要看cabbage。」我就想cabbage，什麼cabbage？講到最後原來是Jadeite Cabbage，就是我們的翠玉白菜。當然很多委員關心前幾天有人在翠玉白菜那邊簽名，很擔心它的危險，我想院裡面也做了一些回復，在這邊就不多說了，不過事實上我碰到的情況真的是它很知名，國外都非常關注，這一點剛才前面的委員也有提到，在維護人力的部分或許也是院裡面要突破的。","大家雖然都關心這一點，但我這邊有一個很實質、大層面的問題要跟您就教，目前看起來兩岸好像還是有一點兵凶戰危的氛圍下，我想請教一下，過去八國聯軍的時代，我們知道這些海權強國對於文化還有國寶的搶奪非常地嚴重，這也是為什麼當時國民政府撤退來臺的時候，把整個故宮的文物撤來臺灣。那現在假設這樣兵凶戰危，如果發生了我們最不期待的狀況，請問故宮的文物怎麼處理？怎麼藏好？或者是怎麼分散到世界各地跟我們同等級的一些博物館做交流呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：原則上故宮的文物送到國外的話，除了正常的交流之外，我們並沒有這個選項，所以故宮還是臺灣所有的博物館裡面，對文物保存最專業，而且是庫房安全性最高的一個地方。"],["林委員倩綺：那我有機會知道這樣的保存計畫嗎？因為我又突然有點擔心，院裡面有機會來跟我說明或是讓我放心嗎？因為最近我常常聽到有人說這是國安問題，然後資料不提供，其實我本身也有接到一些這樣的訊息，我當然希望庫房在這樣的狀況下，能夠確保我們文物的安全，假設在兵凶戰危的情況下，我們故宮博物院最重要的就是裡面的館藏、國寶跟文物，如果這不是選項，但是假設發生，那是不是這個時候……我要提醒一下，我不知道院裡面有沒有以前的計畫，如果沒有，可能這個選項也要稍微做一下討論。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，因為故宮博物院現在是國家重要的安全設施，所以國土辦是把我們列管，隨時都會來做檢測，針對這個部分的話，我想故宮的文物未來都是在山洞或是在地下的庫房，它的安全性相對是比較高的。"],["林委員倩綺：好，如果能夠提供相關的資料給我，就麻煩提供，如果有困難，那就麻煩我們找個時間，我來瞭解一下，因為我們不希望發生，但是或許這個可能性是有的。","今天有關於故宮的部分，剛才也有很多人談到你們的文化資產、歷史建築也經過幾次的開會，然後在整個大計畫裡面，建築的部分也有一些整修，許多人也提醒有關於玻璃屋的這件事，因為前段時間我去史博館，前面的無障礙空間雖然不是玻璃屋，不過也是玻璃穿透，可是擋住牆面的工程，也是讓很多的建築師有意見，所以我在這邊還是提醒院裡面，雖然有一些法規，但是在法規容許的範圍裡面，我們應該要做到公共性的最大化，所以我還是做一個提醒，因為國史館已經有前車之鑑。除了故宮以外，後面談的是國立博物館的一些公共性的議題，所以我這邊還是要提醒，就是剛才有委員希望你們發函，如果有說明會，如果有相關重要的點，某一些委員已經跟你們要函，那是不是本席這邊也可以有說明會的相關函文，讓我知道這個時間，至少讓公眾知道，讓故宮之後的修復比較不會有先前的問題，我覺得這都不是館長的問題，而是大家承接出現的狀況。","就我們先前談到的指導委員會，貴院也給我一些回復了，回復的是說設4個委員會，各項委員會都可以有一些建議。當然這4個委員會我是覺得比較特殊，包括兒童暨青年事務委員會、景觀諮詢會，還有博物館兒童青年議題，這些策展當然是一定啦！是不是可以請貴院提供給我這幾個委員會開會的次數，還有他們提的一些建議。當然，如果這個真的是很有用的話，有取代掉指導委員會的功能，而且真的是有效度的話，我們當然樂見，只是我從這個字面上想說，好像除了策展，然後景觀，其他幾個我覺得有點比較新穎，是不是就請提供這樣一個資訊給我？然後我們討論一下這個指導委員會跟這些個別委員會中間的一些差異。最重要的是，我覺得現在的館長擔負的責任都很大，我們知道博物館就以蕭院長這樣一個層級，如果都還這麼無力的話，其實我們的文化，包括行政院、包括立法我們都要很努力地來維護，然後推動。針對指導委員會，請院裡面再多做一些討論。","最後，院長，你這個階段雖然不一定會覺得……你搞不好很想繼續跟我打乒乓球，也不一定會……我期待你能夠接受，如果被留任啦！你或許有自己的某一些規劃，但是您在故宮的這段時間，可不可以最後給我們一個……您在這段時間想要給公眾一個價值的建議，也就是說，您在這個位置上，期待我們對故宮的認識，然後故宮的定位跟故宮對整個文化上的價值？"],["蕭院長宗煌：大家也許覺得我的講法太籠統了，可是故宮博物院的寶藏的確是人類共同的文化資產，所以包括我自己、包括所有成員都以守護這些文物，哪怕是國寶重要古物，大家暱稱「國寶」，作為一個重要的使命，所以過去大家討論的部分，我們都會依照委員的意見來重新省思。","另外有關成立專業委員會的部分，其實我成立景觀委員會的目的就是，未來故宮博物院，不管南、北院在做改建或是景觀處理的時候都有一個專業的單位可以來諮詢，不會有「走鐘」的狀況發生。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝院長。最後還是這句話，祝福院長，也祝福故宮博物院跟我們所有國立的博物館，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，院長請回。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","我們請王美惠委員，王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","接下來我們請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.83034375,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.01534375,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.078468750000003,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.617843750000002,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.71909375,"end":178.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.58096875,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.67409375000003,"end":292.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.31846875,"end":308.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.19784375,"end":312.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.07909375,"end":327.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.82346875,"end":377.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.92971875,"end":396.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.85909375,"end":483.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.12846875,"end":637.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.41221875,"end":642.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.93471875,"end":680.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.78534375,"end":680.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.93721875,"end":685.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.96596875,"end":687.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.95284375,"end":697.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.2678437500001,"end":698.74034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.64,"end":10.7,"text":"姜蕭薇議員"},{"start":19.305,"end":45.696,"text":"林院長好我首先很感謝上一回我們在質詢故宮的時候我們講到故宮的百年計畫院裡面的同仁也很早就在4月初就給我相關的計畫內容非常感謝相較於其他有一些部會經常漏掉我想院裡面在這個部分的"},{"start":47.336,"end":73.994,"text":"的這個作為其實還蠻有效力的那我今天就針對幾點來跟院長這邊做一個瞭解跟溝通那當然早上很多委員講到一些事也都是一些重點那當然大家遲遲一直沒有等到這個院長的任命那當然對我而言就朋友來講我是常常還能夠看到你我會蠻高興的那但是在這個文化上我們總會覺得這個"},{"start":76.595,"end":97.624,"text":"前幾天行政院辦了一個新兵訓練我看了一下故宮沒有那沒有可能就會引起大家很大的一個想法究竟是因為故宮太easy了所以在質詢的這個部分可能也不需要再去做一些強化"},{"start":98.764,"end":114.373,"text":"還是說那未來會有像剛才其他一些委員的一些懷疑跟質疑那是我最不想見到的就是談到故宮組織定位的這個未接的這個問題所以我很期待不會是像後者"},{"start":116.074,"end":131.465,"text":"前者也不是太樂見,不過院長經驗非常豐富,還是談到如果像前幾天的新兵訓練,或者是先前的一些任命"},{"start":132.085,"end":157.325,"text":"那故宮相較來講是比較不是那麼政治敏感度的一個內閣成員的一個公佈那相較比較獨立也不是一件壞事那我很期待就像您講的那您這個專業的一個回應確實是代表了如果真的是這樣子的話那文化還有希望那如果是本席剛才的一些想像或者是猜測或者是今天企劃委員問的這些問題那"},{"start":159.807,"end":159.907,"text":"蕭宗煌"},{"start":179.585,"end":207.19,"text":"好那另外呢今天的起點就是我對於這個任命的這個部分希望能夠趕快然後另外就是組織的這個部分也期待雖然不是院長這邊能夠做的那剛才幾位委員講的降級萬萬不行那翠玉白菜的事我們就不想再講了不過我想跟你講個就是就朋友間的一個發生的這個狀況啦這個翠玉白菜確實很重要因為我"},{"start":208.03,"end":230.409,"text":"今年有兩位波蘭的朋友來到台灣,他們一定要去故宮我說故宮好好,那我們有機會帶你去故宮,你有沒有最期待的想要看什麼他說我們要看CabbageCabbage,什麼Cabbage講到最後原來是Jet Cabbage,就是我們的翠玉白菜當然很多委員這邊關心說翠玉白菜的這個前幾天有人在那邊簽名很擔心他的這個"},{"start":231.85,"end":232.07,"text":"林倩綺議員"},{"start":254.284,"end":275.888,"text":"大家雖然都關心這一點那我這邊有一個比較很實質的大層面的問題我要跟您這邊就教就是在目前我們看起來好像還是兩岸有一點這個兵凶戰危的氛圍下我想請教一下我們過去八國聯軍的時代那我們知道這些海權強國對於文化還有國寶"},{"start":278.869,"end":278.909,"text":"林倩綺"},{"start":299.626,"end":308.175,"text":"請問故宮的文物現在怎麼處理?這怎麼藏好?或者是怎麼分散到世界各地跟我們同等級的一些博物館做一個交流?"},{"start":309.757,"end":327.609,"text":"原則上故宮的文物送到國外的話除了正常的交流之外的話我們並沒有這個現象所以故宮我自己講還是台灣所有的博物館裡面對文物保存最專業而且庫房的安全性最高的一個地方"},{"start":328.874,"end":343.013,"text":"那我有機會知道這樣一個保存計畫嗎?因為我又突然有點擔心那院裡面有機會來跟我說明或就是讓我放心嗎?因為最近我常常聽到有人說這是國安問題國安問題然後資料不提供"},{"start":344.955,"end":344.975,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":365.104,"end":368.887,"text":"故宮博物院現在是國家重要的安全設施所以國土辦的話是保門列館隨時都會來做一個檢測所以這個部分的話我想"},{"start":391.025,"end":414.378,"text":"故宮的文物未來都是在山洞或是在地下的庫房,它的安全性相對是比較高的。好,那如果能夠提供相關的資料給我,就麻煩提供。那如果有困難,那就麻煩院裡面我們找個時間我來了解一下,因為這我們不希望發生,但是或許這個可能性是有的。"},{"start":415.098,"end":416.298,"text":"提醒玻璃屋"},{"start":440.105,"end":460.923,"text":"雖然不是玻璃屋不過也是玻璃穿透可是擋住牆面的這樣一個工程也是被很多的建築師這邊有意見所以我在這邊還是提醒因為裡面雖然有一些法規那但是在法規的容許的範圍裡面那我們應該要做到公共性的最大化"},{"start":461.403,"end":462.744,"text":"國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席"},{"start":483.371,"end":505.588,"text":"希望能夠讓某些委員已經跟你們要函那是不是本席這邊也可以有一個說明會的一個相關的函文那讓我知道這個時間那我們也可以至少讓公眾知道那能夠讓故宮之後的這個修復比較不會有先前的問題但是我覺得都不是館長的問題啦都是這個大家承接那出現了這樣一個狀況"},{"start":507.529,"end":507.649,"text":"指導委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":527.838,"end":554.123,"text":"兒童暨青年事務委員會警官諮詢會還有博物館兒童青年議題那這些策展當然是一定啦那是不是可以請貴院這邊提供給我這幾個委員會開會的次數然後還有他們提的一些建議那當然如果這個真的是很有用的話那有取代掉這個指導委員會的功能而且真的是有效度的話那我們當然樂見"},{"start":555.263,"end":555.804,"text":"指導委員會與委員會中間的差異"},{"start":575.703,"end":575.843,"text":"主持人 林倩綺"},{"start":606.124,"end":619.679,"text":"最後 院長你這個階段雖然你不一定會覺得你搞不好很想繼續跟我打乒乓球不一定會我期待你能夠接受如果被留任"},{"start":621.2,"end":642.157,"text":"你或許有自己某一些規劃但是您在故宮的這段時間可不可以最後給我們一個您在這段時間想要給公眾的一個價值的建議也就是說您在這個位置上期待我們對故宮的一個認識然後故宮的一個定位跟故宮對整個文化上的價值"},{"start":643.347,"end":658.356,"text":"大家其實覺得說我的講話太籠統可是故宮博物院的保藏的確是人類共同的一個文化資產所以故宮博物院包括我自己包括所有成員都會守護這些文物哪怕是國寶中要鼓勵大家暱稱國寶"},{"start":659.717,"end":686.165,"text":"作為一個重要使命所以過去大家討論的部分我們都會依照委員的意見的話我們來重新省思那另外的話有關成立專業委員會的部分其實我成立警官委員會的目的就是未來故宮博物院不管南北院在做改建或者警官處理的時候都有一個專業的單位可以來執行不會說像昭京的狀況發生"},{"start":688.991,"end":697.446,"text":"好那謝謝院長最後還是這句話祝福院長也祝福故宮博物院跟我們所有的國立的博物館謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71cd72222ce3aece94827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7ab2d8c09228722765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:11:06 - 12:19:04","影片長度":"00:07:58","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":478,"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:19:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T12:11:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時11分）謝謝主席，我們請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。我在當議員的時候，關於議員助理薪資的調整我們就爭取了很久，右昌部長當部長的時候其實我們也跟他反映過。很高興內政部還有這麼多的委員都有提案，我也希望能夠順利送入二讀，這個會期能夠順利過關，因為其實朝野都有共識，當然只是有些幅度會有不同。我看過行政院的版本，調整議員助理補助費的總額，在直轄市的部分是24萬調整到30萬、縣市議員部分是8萬調到14萬；聘用的人數，取消上限，就是直轄市的話至少7人、縣市議員至少3人，這部分我是支持的。","第二個部分，過去議員的助理只有補助勞保、健保跟勞退，現在你們新的條例除了用助理補助費總額外加20%來補助本來的勞健保、勞退之外，還擴大到加班費跟資遣費，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：如果外加20%的話，直轄市議員每個月就是6萬，縣市議員就是2萬8,000塊。我再問一下，增加的部分跟過去只有勞健保跟勞退，增加多少可以讓議員執行加班費跟資遣費？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我想原來的沒有修正之前，還沒有修之前的4萬跟1.2萬，基本上是支應他們的勞健保跟勞退金。"],["李委員坤城：就多2萬。"],["吳次長容輝：對，多了2萬。一個多2萬、一個多1.6萬。這一部分等於拿來做為加班費、資遣費使用，而資遣費不一定都會發生，不是說每一個月都會有。"],["李委員坤城：但我是認為，2萬其實不夠，因為我們自己有時候六、日都會帶著助理跑，或是有時候晚上有活動。所以這2萬，就是加20%這部分，其實我覺得可以再增加啦！可以再增加！雖然你們這個是有跟著公教人員的薪資調整在做調整，是不是？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這個都會考量，主要當然也要考量到地方的財政問題。"],["李委員坤城：當然，但我個人是覺得這部分20%其實不夠，還要再增加，因為相對於立法委員助理的加班費，其實差距是很大。","第三點，當然大家很重視有關里長的加發春節慰勞金，以里基費的5萬塊為基準，多了1.5個月，就是七萬五。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：部長剛剛說在三重跟里長座談，里長有提出來這個方案。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：其實里長都很支持，都是很正面看待。我相信很多的委員也都會支持，而我也不認為這是選舉考量。有反對的，我看有很多新北市議員、國民黨的議員在反對，我認為反對的才是選舉考量。","本席是三重的立委，最近有關於蘆北重劃案，因為把三重果菜市場遷入，引起大家的關注。我在這邊也做個說明，因為我過去擔任三重蘆洲的議員，長期關心這項議題。三重果菜市場的這個都更計畫，其實過去在朱立倫市長的時代是原地重建，在104年內政部的都市計畫委員會審議通過，那時候就是現地重建，而且先建後拆，安置原有的攤商。到了侯友宜時代才改成異地重建，侯友宜市府在108年辦理這個蘆北蘆南重劃區檢討案的時候，那時候才把三重果菜市場的遷移案納入，而且在109年通過新北市都委會的審議，然後再送內政部審查，到現在都還沒有通過，為什麼？因為新北市政府是霸王硬上弓，不但先上車，而且到目前都還沒有補票。","我再說明一下，抱歉，主席再給我一些時間。這個蘆北蘆南的都市計畫本來要進行公覽，進行公開展覽的時候，在108年公展的時候，那一塊地還是屬於公園綠地、公24，但是新北市政府在進行都市計畫審議的時候，後來才又把三重果菜市場的遷移，把它遷移到這一塊原本的公園預定地，而且把它變更為批發市場用地。中央當時建議新北市政府要補辦公展，但是到目前為止新北市政府一直沒有補辦公展，就把案子送到內政部來，所以我說他是霸王硬上弓、先上車，而且到目前為止都沒有補票。我在當議員的時候就要求新北市政府要辦公展，到目前為止都還沒有。","而新北市政府不僅在程序上有問題，實際上規劃也有問題，因為侯市長為了要把三重果菜市場搬來這個蘆北重劃區，把它綁在一起，弄了一個銀河灣計畫。這個計畫就是在原本公24的公園預定地劃設一個3.51公頃的批發市場用地，然後他又包山包海，給蘆洲市民一個期待，他說我們除了有三重果菜市場搬過來之外，我們要把它立體化，要做國際會議中心、會展中心、購物中心、休閒旅館等等，但是最重要的交通問題，到目前為止仍然無解。所以本席認為，這個不是中央在卡新北，是新北市政府在卡三重跟卡蘆洲，三重果菜市場遷移案如果按照目前的規劃，是造成三重跟蘆洲的雙輸，而且造成三重、蘆洲市民的對立，我認為它是一個雙輸的都更案。所以本席是建議新北市政府要重新思考，三重果菜市場是全國水果交易量最大的批發市場，交通便利絕對是影響市場生意好壞最重要的關鍵，如果他沒有辦法解決交通問題，未來遷過去對三重果菜市場好嗎？對蘆北重劃區好嗎？部長先離開了，本席還是要求，新北市政府要重新思考，不要把問題全部都丟給中央，然後就說中央在卡新北。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員，我想這一部分我要補充說明一下，對於地方的重大建設，不管都更或重大建設，中央只有協助，不會去卡。這一部分，新北到現在因為還沒有提送補充資料來說明，所以我們也希望新北趕快把這個資料提送到我們的土地徵收小組或專案小組來談，該我們協助的我們一定會全力協助，會儘速審查，以上。"],["李委員坤城：部長也跟侯市長談過。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得我們要把這個事情的來龍去脈講清楚，才不會讓有些有心人士或是對三重蘆洲的這個議題不熟的人就說中央在卡新北，我覺得中央還是要把這個事情的來龍去脈講清楚，到現在公展都還沒辦啊！"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["李委員坤城：這個公展都還沒辦，怎麼可能讓你們在都委會的審查能夠通過哩！"],["吳次長容輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢、謝謝次長。","現在我們休息，中午用餐。","休息（12時19分）","繼續開會（13時3分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.83221875,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.586593750000002,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.67846875,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.42096875,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.743468750000005,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.16784375,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.72534375000001,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.94409375000001,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.45721875000001,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.91096875000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.06971875000002,"end":130.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.25534375,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.58846875,"end":133.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.71471875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.59721875,"end":156.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.61409375000002,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.66471875000002,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.26784375,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.68971875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.97659375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":165.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.54096875000002,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.70471875,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.71659375000002,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.94784375,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.00409375,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.73221875000002,"end":238.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.91346875000002,"end":259.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.45034375,"end":263.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.10784375000003,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.19159375000004,"end":309.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.68721875,"end":337.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.29471875,"end":340.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.29846875000004,"end":342.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.08284375,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.25971875000005,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.69784375,"end":410.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.11034375,"end":411.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.67971875,"end":419.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.84721875,"end":422.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.53034375000004,"end":427.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.72784375000003,"end":430.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.87971875000005,"end":428.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.11971875,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.90721875,"end":441.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.02784375000005,"end":478.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.91784375000003,"end":454.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.47659375,"end":469.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.06221875000006,"end":476.41221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.63,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請市長"},{"start":15.367,"end":42.838,"text":"市長好 謝謝我在當議員的時候其實關於這個議員助理的心智的調整其實我們就爭取了很久然後右昌部長他當部長的時候其實我們也跟他反映過那其實很高興那這個內政部還有這麼多的委員都有提案那我也希望說能夠順利這個送入二讀然後這個會期能夠順利過關因為其實草野都有共識當然只是有些幅度這個會有不同"},{"start":43.618,"end":66.581,"text":"那我有看過這個行政院的版本這個調整議員助理補助費的總額在直轄市的部分是24萬調整在30萬然後這個縣市議員部分是8萬到14萬然後這個聘用的人數呢這個取消上限這個直轄市的話至少7人然後這個縣市議員至少3人這部分我是支持的"},{"start":67.402,"end":88.317,"text":"第二部分就是說這個過去這個議員的助理只有補助這個勞保健保跟勞退嘛那現在你們這個新的這個條例是說這個用助理補助費總額外加20%來補助原有的本來的這個勞健保勞退之外擴大到這一個加班費跟資遣費嘛對不對"},{"start":88.997,"end":105.018,"text":"如果說外加20%的話 直轄市議員每個月就是6萬然後縣市議員就是2萬8千塊那我再問一下 那這個增加的部分跟過去只有這個勞健保跟勞退 那增加是多少 可以讓這個議員來指引這個加班費跟資遣費"},{"start":108.422,"end":129.735,"text":"我想原來的沒有修正之前還沒有修之前的4萬跟這個1.2萬基本上是支應他們的勞退跟這個勞健保跟勞退金就多2萬一個多2萬一個多1.6萬那這一部分等於拿來作為加班之前會來使用那之前會不一定都會發生但是我是認為說"},{"start":134.197,"end":151.604,"text":"兩萬其實其實不夠啦因為我們自己自己有時候六日都會帶著助理跑那或是說有時候晚上有活動所以這兩萬這就是說加20%這部分其實我是覺得說可以再增加啦可以再增加啦那雖然說你們這個是有跟著這一個"},{"start":153.264,"end":173.79,"text":"公教人員的薪資調整在做調整,是不是?我想這個都會去考量,主要當然也要考量到地方的財政的問題當然啦,但是我個人是覺得說這部分百分之20其實不夠啦,還要再增加相對於立法委員的助理的加班費其實差距是很大"},{"start":176.151,"end":193.548,"text":"第三點是說這個那當然大家都很重視就是有關里長的這個加發春節慰勞金那用這個里基費的這一個五萬塊然後這個多1.5個月就是七萬五那我相信因為這個部長當初在這個三重有跟這個里長座談那里長有提出來"},{"start":194.048,"end":209.42,"text":"他提出這個方案那其實里長是都很支持都是很正面看待了那我相信這個很多的委員也都會支持那我也不認為說這是選舉考量有反對的我看有很多新北市議員國民黨的議員在反對我認為反對的才是選舉的考量"},{"start":212.822,"end":228.052,"text":"那本席因為是山崇的立委那最近有關於這個盧北重劃案因為把這個山崇果在市場遷入引起大家的關注那我在這邊也做個說明那這個就是說因為我過去是擔任這個山崇盧州的議員"},{"start":228.672,"end":251.187,"text":"那我長期是關心這項議題那三重果菜市場的這個都更的計畫其實過去在朱立倫市長時代呢是原地重建原地重建在104年的這個內政部的都市計畫委員會審議通過那時候就是現地重建而且先見後猜安置原有的攤商那到了這個侯友宜時代呢才改成異地重建"},{"start":251.767,"end":255.871,"text":"當時侯友宜市府在108年辦理盧北盧南重劃區的檢討案的時候才把山崇國債市場的遷移案納入而且在109年通過新北市都委會的審議再送內政部來審查"},{"start":270.645,"end":289.338,"text":"到現在都還沒有通過,為什麼?因為新北市政府是霸王硬上弓不但先上車而且到目前都還沒有補票我再說明一下,抱歉主席再給我一下時間盧北如都市計畫本來要進行公覽進行公開展覽的時候在108年公展的時候那一塊地還是屬於公園綠地,公24"},{"start":295.402,"end":323.279,"text":"但是新北市政府後來在進行都市計畫審議的時候後來才又把這個山蟲果菜市場的遷移把它遷移到這一塊的原本的這個公園預定地來而且把它變更為批發市場用地然後中央當時候是建議新北市政府要補辦公展但是到目前為止新北市政府一直沒有補辦公展然後就把案子送到內政部來所以我說他是霸王硬上宮"},{"start":324.039,"end":343.677,"text":"先上車而且到目前為止都沒有補票這是我在當議員的時候就要求這個新北市政府要辦公宅到目前為止都還沒有那新北市政府呢不僅在程序上有問題還在實際上規劃也有問題因為侯市長為了要把這個三重國債市場搬來這個盧北重劃區把它綁在一起弄了一個銀河灣的計畫"},{"start":346.399,"end":371.906,"text":"這個計劃就是在原本的公園預定地 劃設一個3.5億公頃的批發市場用地然後他又包山包海 給盧州市民一個期待他說我們除了有三重果山市場搬過來之外 我們要把它立體化要做什麼呢 國際會議中心 會展中心 購物中心 休閒旅館等等但是最重要的交通的問題 到目前為止仍然無解"},{"start":372.626,"end":393.585,"text":"所以本席認為說 這個不是中央在卡新北 是新北市政府在卡山崇跟卡蘆洲山崇國際市場遷移案呢 如果按照目前的規劃 是造成這個山崇跟蘆洲的雙輸而且造成這個山崇蘆洲的市民的對立 所以我認為它是一個雙輸的都更案"},{"start":394.306,"end":413.054,"text":"所以本席是建議新北市政府要重新思考三重果菜市場是全國水果交易量最大的批發市場交通便利絕對是影響市場生意好壞最重要的關鍵那如果他沒有辦法解決交通問題未來牽過去對三重果菜市場好嗎?"},{"start":414.234,"end":430.551,"text":"對盧北崇化區好嗎?所以本席是要求因為部長他先離開了他本席還是要求新北市政府要重新思考不要把問題全部都丟給中央然後就說中央在卡新北謝謝我想這一部分我要補充說明一下"},{"start":431.155,"end":456.845,"text":"對於地方的重大建設不管都更或重大建設中央只有協助不會去卡那這一部分這個新北到現在因為還沒有提送這個補充資料來說明所以我們也希望新北趕快把這個資料提送到我們的土地徵收小組或專案小組來這個談那該我們協助我們一定會全力來協助會盡速來審查因為這個部長也跟侯市長有談過啦那我覺得就是說我們要把這個事情的來龍去脈講清楚"},{"start":458.266,"end":458.546,"text":"李坤城委員"}]}},{"id":"152342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71862d34646dd5694e827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac75e84f1de4e0a11165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"12:02:55 - 12:10:56","影片長度":"00:08:01","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":481,"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:10:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T12:02:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（12時3分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["丁委員學忠：今天問的都差不多，次長，村里長是地方公所為民服務的第一線，很多村里長都非常認真付出，也很高興內政部跟行政院宣布要增加村里長春節慰問金，這也算是賴總統上任之前可以提高他民調的一個大禮。但是因為這個部分，臺灣各縣市要增加五億八千萬的經費，這筆錢依照地制法是要由縣市政府出，剛才也有幾位委員提到，這個法案大家都很認同，有媒體說中央會補助財務狀況比較不好的縣市，我要請教財務比較不好的標準在哪裡？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我們財政有劃分等級，有分五級。"],["丁委員學忠：有，剛才你說的我都有聽到，我現在要向你報告，我們雲林縣去年112年的收入跟支出差19億，我們算是財政不佳嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：因為我不曉得最後的數字是什麼，因為雲林跟嘉義一樣都很窮。如果要看那個數據，我們沒有財政的那個數據。"],["丁委員學忠：如果是這個狀況，應該就會得到中央政府的補助？"],["吳次長容輝：假設它有差短的話。"],["丁委員學忠：就可以了？那我先替我們雲林縣政府感謝你們，因為我們雲林縣是一個農業大縣，負責全國糧食的重大任務，經費真的比較欠缺，也需要中央多多來支持，這個部分再請次長幫忙。"],["吳次長容輝：可是據我瞭解，雲林的財政好像越來越好了。"],["丁委員學忠：真的嗎？因為我們縣長很會存錢、很會還債，但還是不夠啦！","還有一件事，這兩天剛好聽到我們一些議員在反映，議員的助理費從民國89年到現在已經20年都沒有調整，次長知道這中間基本工資自民國101年的一萬八千塊提高到113年兩萬七千塊，若照目前的規定，縣市議員的助理上限是每一個月8萬塊，依照規定是2個到4個，若是聘請到上限4個，就等於一個助理的費用才兩萬塊而已，20年前還勉強符合基本工資，但是現在早已不符合基本工資。我知道內政部有意要修改議員的助理費，提高到14萬，因為現在很多縣市議員的素質都越來越好，有很多年輕人，他們對各縣市業務問政都非常認真，所以他們要聘請非常專業的助理，而只有提高助理費上限才有辦法讓他們請到非常專業的助理，所以我在這裡要拜託次長先調整這個上限，是不是只要2人以上就可以？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，這一次我們修法已經都把它拿掉了，包括聘用人數的上限也拿掉了，以前我們規定每一個議員最高薪資不能超過8萬，這個也拿掉了，都有考量到。"],["丁委員學忠：還有一個問題，我們常常在新聞上看到議員詐領助理費，這都涉及貪污，現在的法令規定的是公費助理，是不是可以把公費助理廢掉，改成助理？原本要補助他們14萬，我是希望可以增加到16萬，我們補助他們這些助理費，應該直接給議員，讓他們自由去請他的助理，我們就限定要2人以上，如果說他請比較少，服務比較差，下次要連任可能就比較困難，所以讓他們自由去運用，不要因為用公費助理，因為公費助理就等於是公務人員了，等於是政府請的，他的老闆不是議員。"],["吳次長容輝：非常感謝委員，委員的意見跟行政院院版是一致的。"],["丁委員學忠：對，都一樣啦，未來就是要讓議員自己自由發揮。"],["吳次長容輝：是，我們只是定一個上限。"],["丁委員學忠：對，不要動不動沒注意到核銷就涉及什麼詐領，其實大家都實實在在在地方服務，不要一個沒注意就涉及那件事情，這樣我覺得對議員來說比較不公平。"],["吳次長容輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：還有一件事就是鄉民代表會為民服務費，我記得17年前我第一次參與政治的時候，我做代表，那時候就3,000塊，到現在還是3,000塊，我知道這次要提高2,000塊，變成5,000塊，這部分有跟全國代表會聯誼會討論，聽他們的心聲嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這部分在一些開會的場合，大概我們都有提過，代表會比較特別，是因為代表會是一個比較多席次的、選區又比較小的，這一部分為什麼我們只從3,000元調到5,000元呢？大概考量到他服務的範圍比較小。"],["丁委員學忠：我是不是可以跟次長約時間，我來聯絡全國代表會主席聯誼會，請他們來立法院，跟次長開一個座談會？"],["吳次長容輝：5月20號之前可以啦。"],["丁委員學忠：5月20號那天？520那天……"],["吳次長容輝：520以後你可能找不到我了。"],["丁委員學忠：真的喔？如果520之前你有答應，520以後算不算數？"],["吳次長容輝：那要看520之後我講的話算不算數。"],["丁委員學忠：你這樣就是又跟我「練肖話」。"],["吳次長容輝：我跟你講實話。"],["丁委員學忠：次長，不能這樣，有時候一些政策你們要延續下去。"],["吳次長容輝：延續是一定會延續……"],["丁委員學忠：對，你不能現在這樣說一說，好像在跟我「練肖話」，隨便講一講、大家笑笑就這樣算了，不能這樣啦！"],["吳次長容輝：我跟你報告，委員，這個政策一定會延續。"],["丁委員學忠：同樣是政府單位，我們監督單位，我們跟你們反映事情，你們跟我用這種「練肖話」的方式。"],["吳次長容輝：不，這個一定會，政策一定會延續，只是我現在跟委員報告的就是，如果520之後去開的話，我不能再代表了，到時候我講話變成沒有公信力，這樣對委員也是不好的。"],["丁委員學忠：我看我還是520以後再約他們上去好了。"],["吳次長容輝：也可以啊！我用一個民間人士的看法，可以啊！"],["丁委員學忠：你有沒有辦法再連任？你做得那麼好，應該可以連任吧？"],["吳次長容輝：這是另外一個話題。"],["丁委員學忠：好啦！"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員關心。"],["丁委員學忠：你就當做我一樣在「練肖話」。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢。","下一位請李坤成委員。李坤成委員之後我們就休息、中午用餐，1點半再開會。再更正一下，1點開會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.14784375,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.632843750000003,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.10846875,"end":57.524093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.11471875,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.211593750000006,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.24346875,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.50471875000001,"end":79.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.39846875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":86.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.12284375,"end":90.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.56096875,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.29909375000001,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.25221875000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.80909375,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.87659375000001,"end":97.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.87221875,"end":100.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.93971875000001,"end":101.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.84221875,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.22971875,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.34346875,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.93346875,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.61659375,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.83909375,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.25971875000002,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.15409375000002,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.82034375,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.51221875000002,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.76534375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.51596875,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.71846875,"end":137.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.76909375,"end":137.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.83221875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.37159375000002,"end":148.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.39159375,"end":159.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.17471875,"end":163.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.48221875000002,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.10096875000002,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.80909375000002,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.92721875,"end":205.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.98659375000003,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.53721875000002,"end":254.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.68409375000002,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.42159375000003,"end":254.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.91096875000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.97846875000002,"end":257.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.13034375,"end":256.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.86409375,"end":258.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.82596875,"end":292.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.39034375,"end":298.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.87971875,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.76909375,"end":313.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.49346875000003,"end":307.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.14284375,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.29034375000003,"end":317.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEA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這個我們財政有劃分等級嘛 有分五級 剛才你講的我都聽到 我現在要跟你講講 我們分年關一半十二年 我們的修理及技術差十九億 我們這間有合作財政付加的"},{"start":91.673,"end":99.339,"text":"如果是這個狀況應該就會得到我們中央政府的補助假設他有差短的話就可以了啦我先推我們婚姻館政府跟你們講一下因為我們婚姻館"},{"start":113.729,"end":116.33,"text":"我了解好像於您現在越來這個財政越來越好"},{"start":138.039,"end":138.259,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":160.439,"end":166.081,"text":"一段時間一年一萬九千元變成一段時間十三年兩萬七千幾元按照法定規定本期議員的租利上限是一萬九千元按照規定是兩年九四月"},{"start":182.805,"end":188.288,"text":"若放車上線至4時定於一座座禮費用這兩萬塊而已。但二十年前要跟民間符合這個資本工資,但是到這時已經沒有符合這個資本工資了。我有知道我們前陣子有要來修正這個議員這個座禮費。"},{"start":203.037,"end":209.781,"text":"提交及14萬因為我們現在很多官司：議員的素質都越來越好都很多年輕人他們對著我們各官司的業務方針他們都非常認真所以他們要勤奮非常專業的助力的人員所以我們如果把規定這個上限就對了我們規定這個上限就對了有可能"},{"start":230.635,"end":255.553,"text":"這條真的有非常專業的一個策略所以我在這裡會拜託市長這個國分這個上限的國分我們來先調整一下想說兩人一箱這樣就可以打報告委員這一次我們修法已經都把人拿掉了包括這個人數的這個上限配合人數的上限也拿掉了那每一個議員以前我們規定說最高的薪資不能超過8萬這個也拿掉了這個都有考慮到還有一個問題"},{"start":258.996,"end":281.141,"text":"我們經常在新聞看到說那議員什麼助理會什麼柵林助理會啦這就都去卡到塘屋啦啊我們是公費助理我們現在的法院是公費助理我們想可以把這個公費助理給廢掉我們給他助理就我們要補助他們14萬我是希望可以給到16萬啦"},{"start":283.041,"end":290.628,"text":"對啦,我們補助他們這個助理費,我們直接給議員,他們自己主委去簽他的助理,我們就限定說兩人,要兩人醫生,對啊,他們如果說簽比較少,補助比較少,後1個月年齡,有可能補助不好年齡就比較困難,所以他們自己給他們去主委去運用,不要說因為這個公費助理,這個公費就定義是公費另外啦,定義是政府簽,不是,他的頭家不是議員啦,"},{"start":311.545,"end":325.006,"text":"我非常感謝委員 委員的意見跟行政院的案板是一致的啦對 都一樣啦 是的 是的我們回來 我們就是總要給議員自己資料去發揮嘛 是的 我們只是等一個上限補負 對啊 我要講的 你看 不只是個人在核銷 在報"},{"start":326.909,"end":327.149,"text":"對議員來說有比較好的說法"},{"start":342.583,"end":352.731,"text":"再一次就是我們這個鄉民代表費為民服務費我記得我17年前我第一屆常務政理的時候我做代表那時候就三千塊跟這次也是三千塊我會告訴你我們有還要提高兩千塊到五千塊這個國分我們有跟這個全國代表費、任議費我們有跟他們討論聽他們的心聲"},{"start":370.209,"end":375.903,"text":"我想這一部分在一些開會的場合大概我們都有提過那這個因為"},{"start":378.973,"end":396.908,"text":"代表會會比較特別是代表它是一個比較多席次的選區又比較小的那這一部分為什麼我們調整會從3000調到只調到5000呢大概考量到說因為它服務的我先可以用次長用時間我來聯絡這個全國代表會連議會主席連議會好不好是邀請他們起來我們立法院先跟我們那個次長開一個座談"},{"start":406.656,"end":418.123,"text":"5月20日之前可以啦5月20日那一天?520那天你會打?520以後可能找不到我欸真的喔?是啊如果520之前你有答應520以後算不算數?"},{"start":418.769,"end":437.076,"text":"那要看5月份之後我講的話算不算數?哇 這樣也是要給我認消費我跟妳講實話 我跟妳講實話有啦 有時候一段時間你來延續下去啊這延續是一定會延續對啊 你們不能說現在這樣公開的 如果有時候要給我認消費這樣清台連連 大家湊齊 這樣耍耍的 不能這樣啦我跟妳報告委員 這個政策已經被延續了 原來是現在我們黨內 或我們共產黨內 我們要給你們歡迎事情 你們給我用這個認消費的方式"},{"start":448.854,"end":449.534,"text":"我聽說是5201號再運上來就好了"},{"start":464.011,"end":464.332,"text":"丁學忠委員"}]}},{"id":"152341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7114ae9ae8d197138a827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac74a6488c8a1a4c8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:55:16 - 12:02:51","影片長度":"00:07:35","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":455,"end_time":"2024-05-08T12:02:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:55:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時55分）謝謝主席，在座的各位大家好。首先，本席想先在這裡說明一下，有些人有疑慮，就是國民黨團、民眾黨團在上週五抽出幾案有關地方民意代表助理加薪，還有村里長增加春節慰問金，即抽出幾個提案、法案逕付二讀的疑慮，這跟今天我們要來審查，我想這是沒有問題的，因為還有逕付二讀之前的協商，所以今天的討論如果有結果，我們是可以併案處理，是可以一起採納相關的內容，所以本席接下來要就相關議題來請教吳次長。"],["主席：請我們吳次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。首先本席想請教，我們看到內政部報告第2頁提到議員助理補助費總額上限的問題，請問次長，行政院版草案今天雖然沒有送進來，但行政院版草案應該是內政部提給它的吧？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：針對直轄市議員跟縣市議員助理補助費總額的上限分別各加6萬，請問你們這6萬是怎麼算出來？為什麼上限只加6萬？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我們當初在設算的時候，就我剛剛特別講的，這個設算要跟助理的人數一起去考量，所以委員可能也會認為直轄市為什麼一樣只加6萬、縣市為什麼只加6萬呢？本來他們的薪資水準可能就不太一樣，比如說，我們現在刪除了上限來規定下限……"],["徐委員欣瑩：議員的費用呢？上限有設限6萬嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：議員也一樣有設限，因為我們是補助上限、最高的上限。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！但為什麼上限是6萬嗎？本席的提案就是就增加7萬，所以首先我想請教您，就您印象所及，20年前我們買一個便當，一個主菜加四樣配菜的便當要大概要多少錢？20年前你應該也還在內政部？"],["吳次長容輝：沒有！沒有！我在地方。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那時候這樣的便當多少錢？"],["吳次長容輝：50塊？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！大家的印象都是這樣，請問現在一個主菜加四樣配菜的便當要多少？"],["吳次長容輝：如果在臺北的話，我看大概120吧！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，120，增加了將近2.35倍，所以在這種情況下，我們地方民意代表的一些費用還有助理的費用，都沒有與時俱進，所以我們特別想提醒內政部，這20多年來物價一路漲，如果我們看待地方民意代表費用的調整，只純粹用增加支出或者是用當時立法背景的角度來談，恐怕不周延，特別我看到你們好像都是引用89年的立法理由，89年跟現在已經相差了20幾年了，所以這個部分我要特別提醒內政部。","同時本席在這邊請教一下，當初縣市議員跟鄉鎮市民代表的研究費，並沒有納入主管加給這個項目，那是什麼原因？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，當初是考量到省府時代他們的薪資如果加了主管加給的話，可能就會超過當時的那個水準。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是那時候有那時候的背景、因素，所以現在這個應該要增加，這點您認同吧？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這個大家可以去討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為物價上漲，而整個縣市議員跟鄉鎮市民代表的費用，應該要考量基本工資還有民生物價的漲幅，這個要一起考量進去。"],["吳次長容輝：對，這幾個面向應該要一起去檢討。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在我們縣市議員的費用只有8萬3,150元，市民代表只有6萬1,830元，實在太低了，所以本席認為要納入主管加給，現在的時空背景應該可以了吧？"],["吳次長容輝：是，這部分我們尊重各位委員的意見，這個可以討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，再來就是剛剛很多委員在關心，今天朝野應該都有共識，要為地方民意代表還有村里長增加慰問金，那大家也都關心這個費用到底要從哪裡來出，我看到5月2號行政院會通過，內政部的新聞稿說，要依據地制法規定，財源必須由地方籌措，但行政院表示，預計會有部分縣市需要補助，請問部分縣市是哪些縣市？你不能用顏色來分別部分縣市吧？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這不會有顏色的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那部分縣市是指什麼？我們很好奇。"],["吳次長容輝：就是那些財政比較困難、收支有差短的縣市，大概這些資料都在財政部、主計總處。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你是依據財政部的資料，看各縣市收支的情況？"],["吳次長容輝：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那很努力還債也很辛苦的縣市碰到這種情形，就沒有辦法得到中央的資源囉？"],["吳次長容輝：這要看每一個縣市的收支情形，這一部分在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們財政情況處理的標準是什麼？"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分我們會再跟……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先念完好了，剛剛念一半。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：行政院表示，預計會有部分縣市需要補助，將視財政情況處理，這個東西非常的籠統，而且感覺上都由中央說了算，這令我們很憂心。"],["吳次長容輝：不會啦，它本來就是一個機制，你總要讓這些財政比較差的縣市活下去嘛。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你什麼機制，你在這邊跟大家說清楚，最後就解答這個。"],["吳次長容輝：在財政部、主計總處那邊會有，我這邊沒有，他們今天有來，可以來談。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你現在簡單跟我們講。"],["吳次長容輝：因為他這有固定的比例啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的意思是要財主他們來回答。"],["吳次長容輝：對，因為這個跟稅收有關係。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們最後定案、定調是怎麼樣？"],["吳次長容輝：定調就是剛剛講的，對於財政比較困難的縣市，我們另外按照……"],["徐委員欣瑩：每個縣市都說它比較困難啦。"],["吳次長容輝：大部分都講它沒錢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦，那你就說比較困難的，現在其實每個縣市財政都困難，所以你們都要協助。"],["吳次長容輝：沒有啊，有些縣市很有錢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說的是哪個縣市？"],["吳次長容輝：至少六個縣市都很有錢啊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你意指直轄市很有錢，其他非直轄市你們通通要協助。"],["吳次長容輝：不一定哦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席是新竹縣，拜託你！拜託你！"],["吳次長容輝：新竹縣市也很有錢啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：新竹縣市哪裡有錢？"],["吳次長容輝：比我們嘉義有錢。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":2.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.050968750000001,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.550968750000003,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.74721875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.57659375,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.220343750000005,"end":59.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.37159375,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.02971875,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.56971875000001,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.89034375,"end":95.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.93159375,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.30659375,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.01534375,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.45721875000001,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.16846875,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.87721875000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.64034375000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.73659375,"end":133.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.77846875,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.56284375,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.99409375000002,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.65221875,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.39471875,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.09471875,"end":168.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.21284375000002,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.06784375,"end":171.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.41346875000002,"end":178.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.48409375,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.25534375,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.67096875000001,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.94471875000002,"end":228.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.92346875,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.86409375000002,"end":244.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.70971875,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.00909375,"end":248.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.86534375000002,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.52721875,"end":255.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.13034375,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.18346875000003,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.75721875,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.46159375,"end":271.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.31346875,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.55221875,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.86784375,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.35221875,"end":296.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.48659375,"end":332.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.31221875,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.54846875000004,"end":334.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.17659375,"end":338.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.72909375,"end":340.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.07471875000005,"end":349.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.03659375,"end":342.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.33971875000003,"end":346.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.73596875000004,"end":353.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.71409375,"end":353.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.81534375,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.86596875000004,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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這個當初是考量到我省府那時代那一個他們的薪資如果這個加了主管家籍的話可能就超過當時的那個水準對但是那時候有那時候的背景的因素嘛所以現在我們這個應該要增加這點您認同吧"},{"start":253.578,"end":281.626,"text":"我希望這個可以大家可以去討論所以這個物價上漲我們整個縣市議員跟鄉鎮市民代表的這個費用我們應該要考量基本工資還有民生物價的漲幅這個要一起考量進去這幾個面向是要應該一起去檢討所以現在我們縣市議員的費用只有83,150元跟市民代表只有61830元實在太低了所以"},{"start":282.611,"end":296.421,"text":"本席認為要納入主管家級現在的時空背景應該可以了吧是可以齁這一部分我們尊重各位委員的意見啦這個可以討論好那再來就是剛剛很多委員在關心啊"},{"start":297.526,"end":314.783,"text":"今天草也應該都有共識要為地方民意代表還有我們的村里長他的慰問金來增加這個費用那大家都關心說這個費用到底要從哪裡來出那我看到我們5月2號行政院會有通過"},{"start":316.544,"end":340.749,"text":"內政部的新聞稿有說要依據地制法規定財源必須由地方籌措但行政院表示預計會有部分縣市需要補助請問你的部分縣市是哪些縣市你不能用顏色來分別部分縣市吧我想這不會有顏色的問題那你的部分縣市是指的是什麼"},{"start":341.129,"end":367.099,"text":"就是那些可能他的財政比較困難收支有差短的這一部分所以大概這些資料在財政部所以你是依據財政部的資料各縣市的收支的情況那對於很努力還債然後也很辛苦的那碰到這種情形他就沒有得中央的這個資源因為這要看每一個縣市他的收支情形"},{"start":367.995,"end":370.679,"text":"所以你們財政情況處理的標準是什麼?行政院表示預計會有部分縣市需要補助將是財政情況處理"},{"start":383.456,"end":399.333,"text":"那這個東西非常的籠統而且這個東西感覺上都由你中央說了算這個我們很憂心不會他本來就是一個機制你總要讓這些財政比較差對你什麼機制你在這邊跟大家說清楚嘛最後就這個解答這個財政部門組長那邊會有我這邊沒有啦你現在簡單跟我們講"},{"start":405.82,"end":433.075,"text":"因為他這有一定固定的比例啦所以你的意思是要財主他們來回答就對了對因為這跟稅收有關係嘛那你們這確定定案定調是怎麼樣嗎我們定調就是剛剛講的就是說對於這個財政比較困難的這些縣市我們另外就按照每個縣市都說他比較困難啊好啦那你就說比較困難的那現在我們每個縣市其實財政都困難所以你們都要協助沒有啊有些縣市也很有錢啊"},{"start":434.535,"end":434.975,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"152340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71ce755b3d2a334dfd827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac735370ae7c0b599e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:45:19 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11:55:03","影片長度":"00:09:44","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":584,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:55:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":579,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時45分）謝謝主席，各位官員、各位委員，大家早安、大家好。是不是有請政次？"],["主席：好，請政次。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝政次。今天很開心，不管是針對地方民意代表及里長費用增加的草案修正，我相信剛剛有很多委員請教政次，如果草案通過的話，有關於年底里長的7萬5,000是今年會發還是什麼時候會發？"],["吳次長容輝：如果大院通過以後是明年1月1號。"],["張委員智倫：明年1月1號開始算，所以要等到明年年底才會發嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：春節慰問金也是明年才會發。"],["張委員智倫：所以最快要等到明年？"],["吳次長容輝：明年1月1號。"],["張委員智倫：明年1月1號才會開始？"],["吳次長容輝：看等一下大家討論的版本，後面有一條是實施的日期。"],["張委員智倫：所以有辦法改到今年發嗎？有可能嗎？如果等一下大家討論後有沒有可能？"],["吳次長容輝：因為現在已經是5月份了……"],["張委員智倫：已經5月份了。"],["吳次長容輝：如果有也是明年了。"],["張委員智倫：好，第二個要請問政次的是最重要的一點，因為我有去財委會請問，這樣講的話，針對明年年底可能會發的7萬5,000塊，它的性質是什麼？"],["吳次長容輝：那一部分是春節慰問金，不是年終獎金，是春節慰問金，因為它是補助事務費，我們用的是春節慰問金。"],["張委員智倫：春節慰問金是事務費的性質嗎？還是什麼樣的性質？"],["吳次長容輝：因為我們現在民意代表是無給職，所以名稱用……"],["張委員智倫：我主要是指里長，里長的……"],["吳次長容輝：一樣、一樣。"],["張委員智倫：所以它是以事務費的性質，7萬5,000塊是事務費的性質嘛！"],["吳次長容輝：它是另外一個科目叫春節慰問金。"],["張委員智倫：那很簡單的一個概念……"],["吳次長容輝：我們只是以事務費5萬塊的基準來……"],["張委員智倫：對，所以就是要特別跟政次報告，這如果是事務費的性質，我覺得這是比較值得鼓勵的，因為事務費對村里長來講是一個免稅的性質……"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["張委員智倫：財政部這邊的解釋也是這樣子，我們希望這筆錢是給辛苦的里長，不管是過去疫情期間或地震期間，他們身先士卒，第一線面對所有的民眾的努力，所以你們解釋它是事務費的性質，財政部就可以相對應搭配免稅的方案，才不會讓這個里長們……雖然我們呼應誠實納稅，可是我認為這有一點點是為里長著想的錢，政次這個方向可以嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員關心，這部分我們會跟財政部溝通，我們朝這個方向來溝通。"],["張委員智倫：好，朝著這個方向來溝通。最後還有一個大家非常重視的事，因為地方財政其實蠻拮据的，所以地方有一些心聲反映給我，這個經費來源是從哪裡來？如果地方沒辦法支應的話，經費是從哪裡來？是不是中央可以來補貼？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我想這個大概所有委員都關心啦！"],["張委員智倫：對。"],["吳次長容輝：關心這個錢到底是要中央來出，還是地方來出，那我剛才有特別報告，制度歸制度，地方制度法跟財劃法規定就是要由地方來支應這個錢，至於那些比較窮困的、財政比較差的，我們另外有配套……"],["張委員智倫：我跟政次報告，基本上臺灣所有的縣市，應該每個縣市遇到這個都窮困啦，可能你找不到一個縣市可以支應這些經費，所以我是不是請政次要討論一下，由中央來支應這部分的經費。"],["吳次長容輝：跟委員報告，其實以我們現在的設算，六都比較高，大概是一億多，地方大概有幾千萬不等，最近這幾年統籌分配款的撥付都已經增加很多了，而且又增加好幾億，我們認為地方要支應這個錢基本上沒有問題，但對於那些平常財政比較窮困的，的確是有一點負擔，我們才會說用其他收支差短的補貼制度來處理。"],["張委員智倫：好，這部分會後我們再用書面來討論一下，因為我已經得知地方縣市的確在支應上是有困難的，所以拜託政次這邊一定要來協助，不要讓這個立意良善，卻變成地方政府沉重的壓力。"],["吳次長容輝：這個也很正常，如果要增加都好，但如果要出錢，可能跑掉得比誰都快，都是一樣的。"],["張委員智倫：當然我們也是要拜託政次，不能中央的政策，地方來付錢。","今天還有一件事要拜託政次來協助，今天早上我們有開了一個記者會，是由本席跟王鴻薇委員、游毓蘭委員共同開的一個記者會。就是母親節前夕，別再讓警察的媽媽們暗夜哭泣的一個部分，全臺灣現在有8萬的警察，可是最近這十年警察自殺人數增加，尤其今年非常的不尋常，已經有好幾件警員自殺事件發生，所以拜託主席再給我一點時間，尤其今天早上有受害者家屬來到現場做一個陳情，就是關於雅涵的事件，到現在好像家屬還認為他沒有辦法得到結論，所以是不是可以拜託，這個案件中關於錄音檔的部分，是不是可以提供出來，不管是交給律師還是當事者家屬，讓他們瞭解這個當事者、罹難者有沒有受到不當對待，請問政次瞭解這個案件嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員關心，這個案子監察院也已經立案，另外這個案子因為當事人的家屬有提訴願，訴願也確定，可是這個當事人已經往生了，在程序上已經沒有主體，基於先程序再實體，所以這個案子不受理，做出不受理的決定。"],["張委員智倫：可是被害者家屬完全不能接受，這個案子我還是要跟政次報告一下，警大在短短的4天之內就調查終結，把這位梁姓學生、我們的警員，對他做了一個不能再唸書的處分，讓他非常不能接受，而且他在24號的時候，在調查中間也有提到說，他當時身心就已經出了問題，很有可能自殺，可是警大在25號還是做出了退學的決定，然後也沒有通知罹難者的家屬，到最後他們收到通知的時候，已經是準備退學的那一天，所以這整個的制度都很有問題喔！因此，我要請教政次，對於這件事情，當時為什麼警大4天之內就做出決定，是不是有受到什麼樣的壓力？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這個案子沒有什麼壓力，據我所瞭解，警大給我們的資料裡面，整個過程基本上是按照既定的程序來處理，當然詳細的內容我不是很瞭解，包括當初他們在詢問上有沒有什麼樣的問題我不曉得，但至少警大給我們的資料顯示這個過程都符合一般規定的程序，不管是當事人的權益或者讓他有陳述的機會等等，這些程序都有做，所以基本上是沒有問題的，但後來發生這樣一個遺憾的事情，其實我們也很不捨，我們要培養一個警官其實也不容易，關於這個過程、這個部分，我請警大來說明。"],["張委員智倫：好，不好意思，今天耽誤到大家的時間，因為這真的是一件讓大家非常痛心的事情，謝謝主席。"],["黃學務長浩志：委員好，我是警大的學務長。"],["張委員智倫：請問一下這件事情你們現在調查的結果，要怎麼樣給罹難者家屬一個滿意的交代？"],["黃學務長浩志：跟委員報告，我們在處分的當下，都有告知他們……"],["張委員智倫：第一個，你們有沒有告訴家屬你們的學生有這樣的情況？因為家屬回應給我的是直到退學的當天，家屬才知道有這樣的事情。"],["黃學務長浩志：跟委員報告一下，我們學校處理這個案子是十分謹慎的，必須經過調查以後，再提報到訓育委員會，即由師生組成的訓育委員會來審議，對於當事人有利或是不利的部分，我們都會去釐清，釐清了以後按照事實、針對違規的部分，來做一個懲處，懲處完了以後，我們也會給獎懲令，在獎懲令裡面，我們會針對他的違規事實跟法規還有懲處的決定……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝學務長，因為時間的關係，是不是會後我們大家再做一個瞭解跟檢討，應該要給受害者家屬一個公道，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的發言。","再來請徐欣瑩委員發言，然後中午到李坤城委員發言完畢，我們就休息用餐，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.35471875,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.551593750000002,"end":24.668468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.820343750000003,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.64909375,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.85096875,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.96846875,"end":50.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.47471875,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.02284375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.96721875,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.220343750000005,"end":57.524093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.57471875,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.713468750000004,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.57784375,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.59471875,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.72471875000001,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.66096875000001,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.38221875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.20846875000001,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.36284375000001,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.41346875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.95721875000001,"end":95.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.59409375,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.64471875000001,"end":95.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.75784375,"end":100.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.77471875,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.79159375,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.29721875000001,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.91659375,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.51971875000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.27909375,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.29534375,"end":120.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.45096875,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.53096875000001,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.61909375,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.33346875,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.48034375,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.68534375000002,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.89909375000002,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.88596875000002,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.91909375,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.63096875000002,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.66846875000002,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.21409375000002,"end":237.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.85034375,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.84096875,"end":251.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.55284375000002,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.52721875,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.95971875000004,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.27534375,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.91221875,"end":281.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.38784375,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.55159375,"end":287.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.04096875,"end":304.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.05784375,"end":287.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.54034375000003,"end":332.11409375}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月份了"},{"start":72.126,"end":72.306,"text":"春節慰問金"},{"start":93.971,"end":120.261,"text":"不是連中獎金,是春節慰問金,因為它是事務費嘛,它不是事務費,我們用的是春節慰問金的……春節慰問金它是事務費的性質嗎?還是什麼樣的性質?因為我們現在這個民意代表是吳啟職嘛,吳啟職我們都有名字……我聽到是里長啦,里長的……一樣一樣所以它是有事務費的性質嗎?希望我千萬是事務費的性質嗎?它是另外一個科目叫春節慰問金的科目"},{"start":120.501,"end":136.254,"text":"我們只是以事務費的基準那5萬塊的基準來解釋特別要跟正式報告就是說這個如果是事務費的性質的話我覺得這是比較值得鼓勵的因為事務費對村里長來講是免稅的一個性質"},{"start":138.196,"end":153.014,"text":"財政部這邊的解釋也是這樣子那我們希望說這一筆錢解釋給辛苦的里長不管是過去疫情的期間或地震期間他會身先事主第一線面對所有的民眾努力所以如果你們的解釋他是以事務費的性質"},{"start":153.695,"end":170.384,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":170.644,"end":193.61,"text":"謝謝委員關心這一部分我們跟這個財政部我們會來溝通我們朝這個方向來好才到這個方向來溝通好那最好有大家非常重視的因為地方的財政其實蠻拮据的所以地方當然有反映給我的一些心聲就是說這個的這個費用的經費來源大概是從哪裡可以來地方如果沒辦法支應的話經費是從哪裡來是不是中央可以來補貼"},{"start":196.518,"end":202.037,"text":"我想這個大概所有委員都關心啦,關心這個到底這個錢是要中央來出還是地方來出"},{"start":203.218,"end":230.204,"text":"我剛才特別有報告制度歸制度有地方制度法跟財化法的規定你就是要地方來支應這個錢那至於那些比較窮困的這些我跟鄭氏報告基本上台灣這個所有的縣市應該每個縣市遇到這個都窮困可能你找不到一個縣市可以支應這些的經費所以我是不是請鄭氏就是大家討論一下由中央來支應這部分的經費"},{"start":232.267,"end":242.81,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們以現在我們的統計的射算大概六度比較高大概是1億多那地方大概有幾千萬不等"},{"start":244.068,"end":265.121,"text":"以最近這幾年我們的這個統籌分配款的這個波幅都已經增加很多了而且又增加好幾億那以在我們任何地方要支應這個錢基本上沒有問題但對那些財政平常比較窘困的確是有點負擔那這部分才會說我們用其他的這個收支差短的這個補貼制度來處理"},{"start":267.417,"end":285.608,"text":"這部分會後我們待用書面大家來討論一下,因為我已經得到說地方的確現實是有適應上是有困難的,所以拜託政事這邊一定要來協助,不要讓這個利益良善變成地方政府承受的壓力。這個也很正常啦,如果要增加都好啦,如果要出錢每天照樣賠的。"},{"start":286.488,"end":287.149,"text":"拜託政策來協助"},{"start":304.671,"end":332.428,"text":"午清節前夕可是警察媽媽的暗夜長氣的一個部分那全台灣現在有8萬的警察可是最近最近這10年這個警察的這個自殺的人數增加尤其在今年非常的不尋常已經有好幾件警員這個自殺事件拜託主席再給我一點時間尤其今天早上這個受害者的家屬有來到這個現場來去做一個陳情的部分有關於這個"},{"start":336.25,"end":361.069,"text":"的這個事件到現在好像家屬還在認為他是沒有辦法得到結論所以是不是可以拜託就是說有針對這個案件有關於綠營黨的部分是不是可以提供出來給這個不管是律師還是當事者家屬讓他們瞭解說是不是在這個當事者這個罹難者的部分有沒有受到不當對待的部分"},{"start":362.789,"end":391.252,"text":"請問正式了解這個案件嗎?謝謝委員關心因為這個案子有一個是這個監察院也已經立案那另外這個案子因為當事人的家屬他有提這個訴願那訴願也決定因為這個當事人已經往生了所以在程序上已經沒有主體所以我們先程序再實體嘛所以這個案子已經不受理做不受理的決定"},{"start":392.292,"end":409.443,"text":"對,可是這就是被害者家屬完全不能接受的因為這個案子我還是要跟正式報告一下他這個警大在短短的4天之內就做調查終結把這個梁信學生也是我們的警員把他給做一個"},{"start":412.385,"end":432.619,"text":"這個讓他就是不能再念書的一個處分讓他非常不能接受而且他在24號的時候在調查中間也有提到說他當時就身心就已經有受到有受到問題了有很有可能自殺可是警大才25號還是做出了這個退學的這個決定然後也沒有通知這個罹難者的家屬"},{"start":433.8,"end":447.106,"text":"然後到最後他們收到通知的時候已經是準備退學的那一天所以這整個的制度都很有問題所以我要請教政事你這件事情是不是當時為什麼僅到4天之內就做出決定是不是有受到什麼樣的壓力"},{"start":447.995,"end":468.047,"text":"為什麼這個案子沒有什麼壓力?據我所了解這個警察給我們的資料裡面在整個過程基本上程序上是按照一既定的程序來處理當然詳細的內容我不是很了解當初他們在詢問上有沒有什麼樣的問題我不曉得但是至少警察他給我們資料是這個過程是都符合"},{"start":468.627,"end":468.647,"text":"議員．張智倫"},{"start":489.002,"end":493.864,"text":"委員好我是警大的學務長請問一下這件事情你們現在調查的結果怎麼樣給避難者的家屬一個滿意的交代跟委員報告我們在處分的當下都有告知他們"},{"start":517.748,"end":536.535,"text":"第一個你們會告訴家屬你們的學生有這樣的情況因為家屬回應給我的是直到退學的當天家屬才知道有這樣的事情那跟委員報告一下就是我們學校處理這個是十分審慎的我們又必須經過調查以後然後"},{"start":537.535,"end":559.645,"text":"提報薰衣委員會由施生組成的薰衣委員會來審議看看對於當事人有利或是不利的部分我們都會去釐清釐清了以後按照事實來針對違規的部分來做一個懲處懲處完了以後我們也"},{"start":561.705,"end":580.554,"text":"會給這個獎成令,獎成令裡面我們會針對他的違規事實跟法規還有懲處的這個……好,謝謝學長,因為時間的關係,是不是會後我們大家再做一個瞭解跟檢討,應該要給受害者家族一個公道,好不好?好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。好,謝謝我們張智倫委員的"}]}},{"id":"152339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf716bd0b45cd6183427827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7e3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"11:36:00 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11:45:11","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":551,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:45:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:36:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":534,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我們請政次。"],["主席：請政次。"],["高金委員素梅：吳政次好。我們這次修正草案的重點，您看一下有沒有錯？地方民代的部分，我們要調整議員助理補助費，還有它聘用的人數，然後補助支應助理加班費等費用，再來就是調整為民服務費。在村里長的部分，我們是發給春節慰勞金，然後還有另外一個部分，就是我非常堅持的部分──原住民區域特殊性的問題。","好，這幾個今天要討論，至於要加多少、助理人員要加多少，就是待會大家討論下來的結果，我特別要謝謝部長，我以為他會留下來，但是他離開了，而我必須要再提一下，部長其實在3月8號的時候就來我辦公室拜訪我，當時他就同意地方民意代表費用支給及村里事務補助費補助條例的修法方向，就是我剛跟你講的那三大塊，然後在3月18號在這個地方，我也在質詢部長的時候針對議員還有村里長費用的部分，部長也承諾我在一個月要提出修法跟改善方案，所以我是召委，我本來在一個月之後就要就要提了，今天吳召委提了，但是我比較遺憾的是，既然我在3月8號已經跟部長談到這個部分公平正義的問題，但是今天行政院的版本還是沒有列入討論，這是我感到非常遺憾的部分，反而是我們的民意代表在這邊非常認真用功，行政院並沒有版本，所以待會要討論的時候，我們並沒有行政院版本作為依據，這是比較遺憾的部分。","另外，在原住民議員跟村里長的部分，我要感謝部長，非常記得原住民地區要視服務轄區範圍比較大、交通非常不便來增加補助，但是政次您知道嗎？我們原住民地區的村里長事務補助費，還有議員的為民服務費，按照你們的宣布，就是告訴民眾，你們要增加10%，請問一下增加10%的計算基準是什麼？然後10%的補貼到底夠不夠用？我要提醒一下政次，即便是我們原鄉跟偏鄉，各鄉的交通距離跟它的成本是有所不同的，所以請問一下？簡單回應。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員的關心，我想這一部分剛剛委員的指教都沒有錯啦。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["吳次長容輝：因為在原民這個地方，每個縣市的原民區都不盡相同。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！對啊！所以你們都是用比照10%這樣子來計算，如果按照你們來講，直轄市議員為民服務費4萬增加10%只有四千塊，然後縣市議員兩萬塊，增加10%是兩千塊，村里事務補助費5萬塊，加10%只有五千塊，所以你覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員……"],["高金委員素梅：等一下，因為時間的關係，所以是不是我們等一下要討論？我給你看一下。按照我們的討論，我現在用教育部的部分，當時我在教育及文化委員會，我就特別把依據地理環境、交通狀況還有艱苦的程度這樣的因素制定在地域加給表裡面，然後按照這個地域加給表裡面給予不同的補助加給，同時在今天的第八條裡面，我有提到了，我把這樣的精神放在我的版本的第八條處理，政次您知道嗎，我的第八條？所以你的意見是？"],["吳次長容輝：我曉得。"],["高金委員素梅：對，您的意見跟看法？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這個可以來討論……"],["高金委員素梅：這樣子才真正符合公平正義，對不對？"],["吳次長容輝：如果……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你在所謂齊頭式的公平加上百分之十，原鄉跟偏鄉的交通都不太一樣，屏東從三地門鄉或者是從獅子鄉，三地門鄉要到他的服務選區，你知道有多廣嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：如果現在各縣市原民區要用級距來分配的話，那必須要有一個配套方案出來。"],["高金委員素梅：對，所以我在第八條有提出來，因為交通地理環境不同，所以我們給它加給表，讓它有一個對照，同時我也要求村里長的事務補助費必須要按照消費者物價指數適時的調整，總不能每一次任何一個行政院長、任何一個部長上來要討好選民，我們就每一次修法，你認為這樣子合不合理？"],["吳次長容輝：我想單純用消費者物價指數來調，有時候這個變動會太大，所以我們為什麼要提比照公務人員的調薪，因為公務人員調薪考慮的面向比較多一點、比較完整一點。"],["高金委員素梅：等一下我們在逐條的時候繼續討論好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：好的。"],["高金委員素梅：另外，我對於支持議員補助費的調升，包括助理議員的加班費，這部分我是沒有意見，但是內政部看一下101年的函釋，如果有加班的事實，應該在規定助理補助費之下去支應或由議員自行負擔。您知道嗎？這樣的函釋結果導致我們地方議員的爭訟不斷，所以您認為應該怎麼處理？而且我看到你們的院版，部長跟我討論的，你們只有一句「建立內部控制制度」，我認為這樣的一句話並沒有真的解決問題啊！所以你認為在第六條我們要怎麼樣處理？用什麼樣的文字才不會讓地方議員們因為這樣的處理而有爭訟的事件？"],["吳次長容輝：是，不過我想關於我們議會的內控制度是希望……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要再講內控制度了，如果今天我們要修法，是不是就應該要讓我們的地方議員避免這樣的爭訟？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這次修法……"],["高金委員素梅：所以您待會要有心理準備，我們會在這一條裡面讓行政院提出你們的文字版本，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，我要為各縣市尤其是財政非常拮据的原鄉縣市請命，我們今天這些費用到底是中央買單還是地方支應？我剛剛聽到部長在這邊回應說：針對財政拮据的縣市會專案處理。是這樣嗎？要怎麼專案處理？"],["吳次長容輝：這部分我剛才有特別提到，對於這些收入比較短差，或者是比較窮的縣市……"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["吳次長容輝：應該會有一個機制來做補貼……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼樣的機制？"],["吳次長容輝：這部分可能要跟主總跟財政部來談……"],["高金委員素梅：你今天就要來逐條了耶！你今天就要修法了耶！你還要再跟他們討論？"],["吳次長容輝：因為我們的條文沒有這一部分……"],["高金委員素梅：對啊，你今天來只針對要討好村里長的部分，你們並沒有真正的想要來解決問題，政次。"],["吳次長容輝：也不是討好，財政是歸財政的問題……"],["高金委員素梅：所以今天部長不留下來，我覺得他不留下來有很大的因素，就是不願意真正去面對及處理現在不管是議員、不管是中央買單還是縣市買單的問題。所以您待會要有心理準備，不能夠再用我現在質詢你的態度來告訴我們在野黨或者是所有民進黨的委員，我覺得這是不負責任的。","最後，我要提醒您，蔡英文總統在2018年說臺灣的經濟目前處於過去20年來最好的狀態，行政院陳院長也在3月份的時候講，整體GDP大幅的成長，我們的歲入歲出盈餘也很多，會讓經濟越來越好。我在想，既然蔡政府都說這幾年經濟非常好，那麼是不是更應該要優先專案補助財政拮据且因為地震而受嚴重影響的原鄉縣市？這些延伸出來的費用更應該要讓自稱經濟大好的中央來支應，我想這才是符合全民的要求。"],["吳次長容輝：委員，這個也是事實啊！所以這幾年的統籌分配款都已經增加了很多……"],["高金委員素梅：好，既然是事實的話，我們待會要處理這筆增加出來的費用，到底是中央因應還是地方因應，你們就要有一個說法，如果按照你講的，你們對於財政比較辛苦的縣市會專案處理，怎麼樣的專案處理也要說清楚，好不好？謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅召委。","下一位請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4397187500000004,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.494093750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.73409375,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.45971875,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.26909375,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.403468750000002,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.770343750000002,"end":23.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.74034375,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.23784375,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.000968750000002,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.89034375,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.59909375,"end":37.290968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.932218750000004,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.38346875,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.69284375,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.39971875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.01471875,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.44784375,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.67096875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.47659375,"end":139.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.77284375000002,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.13034375,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.16346875000002,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.36034375,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.89971875,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.20346875,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.30409375000002,"end":169.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.13096875000002,"end":192.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.48596875,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.79346875000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.05909375000002,"end":199.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.12659375,"end":207.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.72846875000002,"end":208.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.09534375,"end":212.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.38596875000002,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.13784375,"end":237.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.33159375000002,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.03596875000002,"end":239.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.05284375000002,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.31409375,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.01846875,"end":252.27846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.61721875,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.36284375000002,"end":263.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.31034375,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.86721875,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.98034375000003,"end":270.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.06471875,"end":270.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.11534375,"end":270.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.63846875,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.86971875,"end":282.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.93284375,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.73784375,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.27159375,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.43909375000004,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.44221875,"end":319.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.91784375000003,"end":321.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.55471875,"end":320.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.93846875,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.82596875,"end":377.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.52471875000003,"end":377.82846875},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我想這一部分我們議會的內控制度我們是希望你不要再講內控制度了啦如果今天我們要修法是不是就應該要讓我們的地方的議員避免這樣的徵送的部分所以你待會要有心理準備我們會在這一條裡面讓行政院提出你們的文字版本好不好"},{"start":400.376,"end":417.965,"text":"最後我要為各縣市尤其是財政非常拮据的原鄉縣市來請命我們今天這些費用到底是中央買單還是地方自印我剛剛聽到部長在這邊回應剛剛還在的時候他說針對財政拮据的縣市他會專案處理是這樣嗎要怎麼專案處理"},{"start":420.486,"end":433.951,"text":"我想這一部分我剛才特別有提到就對於這些收支比較短差或者是比較窮的縣市那應該會有一個機制來做補貼那什麼樣的機制那這一部分可能要跟組總跟財政局你今天就要來組條咧你今天就要修法咧你都還要再跟他們討論原來我們的條案是沒有這一部分"},{"start":441.034,"end":458.561,"text":"對阿你今天來你只針對要討好村里長的部分你們並沒有真正的想要來解決問題阿政治所以今天部長不留下來我覺得他不留下來有很大的因素就是不願意真正去面對處理我們現在不管是議員不管是中央買單還是縣市買單"},{"start":462.082,"end":476.713,"text":"所以您待會要有心理準備不能夠再用我現在質詢您的態度來告訴我們在野的所有或者是所有的民進黨的委員我覺得這是不負責任的最後最後我要提醒您蔡英文總統在2018年說台灣的經濟目前處於過去20年來的最好的狀態"},{"start":481.556,"end":485.558,"text":"然後行政院長陳院長他也是在3月份的時候他也講整體的GDP大幅的成長我們的稅入稅出盈餘也很多然後呢會讓經濟越來越好我在想既然蔡政府都說這幾年經濟是非常好那麼是不是更應該要優先專案補助財政結局並且"},{"start":504.946,"end":504.986,"text":"主席"},{"start":521.314,"end":522.014,"text":"好 謝謝我們高金素梅"}]}},{"id":"152338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71c1bf1fc102627ca7827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac734d5112c71ed9d465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:27:59 - 11:35:52","影片長度":"00:07:53","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":473,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:35:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:27:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時28分）主席、與會同仁。請內政部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：吳次長，你好。次長，今天排定村里長春節慰問金及民代助理費的法案，我在這裡先感謝內政部上個會期能夠通過事務費提升5,000塊到5萬來協助里長，但是里長的辛苦我也要讓你們瞭解。我來自最基層，擔任過市民代表、任務型國大代表、縣議員、市議員到現在立法委員，所以和基層的密度很高。我們很辛苦，也瞭解里長的辛苦所在，包含我是新北市義消大隊長，很多災難不管發生在水域也好或是山難也好，里長都是站在第一線。像疫情期間大家非常緊張，但是里長閃避不了，還是要在里內帶頭消毒、協助打疫苗，所以他們都有辛苦的一面。因此今天能夠排審這項法案，我很感謝，因為我擔任召委，很多里長抱怨春節慰問金的問題，很多民意代表、包括市民代表都有春節慰問金，只有里長沒有，所以在這一次我們有行政院院版，跟本席提出的法案裡面，有關春節慰問金1.5個月，這點我也感謝我們的內政部跟行政院的院版，大家的條文都有符合，所以我請問次長，如果以這樣來調整，加上民代的助理費也調整，會不會有影響地方財政收支的問題？請你說明。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員對基層的關心，我想我也來自基層，我也知道，村里長的確真的很辛苦，包括每樣大小事都要他們處理，所以在24年都沒有調整的情況之下，我們針對這個民意代表的部分跟村里長事務補助費的部分來做一個調整，我認為這是一個很嚴肅而且是有必要去做檢討的時候，因為畢竟24年了，在這24年當中，一般的物價或者是基本工資，甚至於公教人員的薪水都有調過了，所以我們覺得院版這部分，我們希望一方面當然是慰勉村里長的辛勞，所以我們針對事務補助費來增訂一個春節慰問金，用1.5個月來處理。","至於助理的部分，即直轄縣市議員助理費調整的部分，我們都很清楚，這個助理是由議員來僱用，但是如果不足的變成議員要自己掏腰包去僱用，以24年前這樣一個額度，現在已經經過24年，其實真正僱用到人才後，用人彈性已經幾乎是比較低了，所以我們也看到這種現象，這次也把它納到我們整個修法裡面，把額度提高，另外給他加班費、資遣費這些等等，來健全這一個聘僱制度跟我們用人的彈性，以上做補充報告。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，謝謝次長的回答，其實本席也是可以接受啦，因為我們說過去地方很多議員助理費發生問題，但是實際上大部分的議員，他的助理絕對都是不夠，因為是怎樣呢？議員本身遇到婚喪喜慶，包括最基本去送個花、花籃或是蘭花，他所有的事務費根本都不夠，這點是我們地方民意代表最大的困擾，所以這個補貼的提升也可以減輕他們的負擔，而他們的負擔減輕之後，其服務品質也才能大大提升，這點我們是有所肯定的，所以在未來我們就朝這個方向，今天國民黨、民進黨跟民眾黨總共提出的版本有40個案，雖然他們抽出3個案，但是還有37個案，這37案包括過去我們上個禮拜五在院會逕付二讀，但是原住民也沒有納入，所以我們今天內政委員會在整個程序上，我們都一定要一併討論，大家取得一個共識才可以把它送出委員會，所以在這裡本席也再次感謝內政部，還有我們所屬所有的同仁，大家都很辛苦。","再來，次長，針對本席最關心的國土計畫法，因為根據目前本席的資料，現在只有金門、連江、花蓮提交，其他的都還沒提交，但是國土計畫法明年4月就要上路了，所以在這個部分，剛好次長有來，請次長回答。"],["吳次長容輝：委員，我這樣跟您報告，到目前為止，我這邊的資料是3個縣市有送過來，因為我們給他們的時間是到6月底之前要送過來，我想這段時間陸陸續續有一些縣市有一些疑慮部分，我們也都一直在溝通當中，當然外面也有聲音講說是不是有時間可以再延？我跟委員報告，目前政策上我們沒有說要延，因為我們認為之前整個國土計畫法的說明、內涵幾乎已經講過好久了，民眾的疑慮，我們可以透過不斷的溝通說明讓他們去瞭解，有一些他們有疑慮的部分，事實上，那些問題不是問題，只是不太理解的關係，我們希望用民眾的語言來跟民眾溝通，讓他們充分去瞭解，不要認為說好像國土計畫比以前的區域計畫法更嚴格還是怎麼樣，我想這是溝通的問題，我們會加強去溝通，我們也希望縣市政府在6月底之前能夠送過來，審查的時候，有什麼意見，我們再去談就好了。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的。部長，對民眾還是要充分去溝通啦，不然他們有疑慮，你說過去所舉辦像是說明會也好，你看民眾反彈的聲音還是非常大，這點就是我們要去克服的，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：是，這點我們會注意。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的政策，我們一定要民眾大家都知道嘛！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們感謝吳召委的質詢。","再來請高金素梅召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4397187500000004,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.91159375,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.497218750000002,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.704718750000005,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.76346875,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.99096875,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.674093750000004,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.61471875,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.49221875,"end":47.415968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.040343750000005,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.579718750000005,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.992843750000006,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.77721875,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.89471875,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.23159375,"end":76.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.47471875000001,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.32659375,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.30534375,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.07721875,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.99221875,"end":87.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.13534375,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.79534375,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.05159375000001,"end":114.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.62909375000001,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.81221875,"end":138.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.57471875000002,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.41534375,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.27971875,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.18659375000001,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.35909375,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.44346875000002,"end":168.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.35471875000002,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.24471875,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.48096875000002,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.89471875,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.02846875,"end":208.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.42471875,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.31471875000003,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.01909375000002,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.41909375,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.30909375000002,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.02096875,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.83346875,"end":252.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.32909375000003,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.72534375,"end":257.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.54346875,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.80909375,"end":262.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.96034375,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.70284375,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.98534375,"end":267.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.36471875,"end":270.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.72284375000004,"end":273.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.77721875000003,"end":277.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.94534375,"end":278.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.65409375,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.72534375000004,"end":287.02409375},{"speak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謝謝謝謝次長的回答其實那本席也是可以接受因為我們說地方過去你說很多議員他的助理會過去有很多助理會發生問題但是實際上大部分的議員他的助理絕對都是不夠因為他本身議員他都分商喜慶包括說最基本的你送一個費"},{"start":281.798,"end":281.818,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":299.927,"end":303.848,"text":"今天可以大大提升,這點是我們所堅定的所以說在未來,我們朝這個方向今天可以說我們也覺得說國民黨及民進黨及我們的民眾黨中共提出的版本有40個案,雖然他們挑三個案,但是還有37個案"},{"start":325.674,"end":351.033,"text":"37案包括過去我們在上個禮拜五在議會要交付二度但是原住民的也沒有納入所以我們今天在我們內政我們是整個程序上我們都一定要一併的討論大家取得一個共識我們才可以說來敢上出議會所以在這裡本席也再次感謝我們內政部還有我們所屬的所有的同仁大家都辛苦"},{"start":351.833,"end":356.454,"text":"市長,本席最關心的是我們的國土計劃法,因為目前本席的資料,現在只有金門、連江、花蓮提交,其他的都還沒提交,但是這個國土計劃法是明年的4月就要上路了,所以說在這個部分,我請市長你來回答這個。"},{"start":379.898,"end":407.743,"text":"委員我這樣跟您報告因為到目前為止有我這邊資料是三個縣市有送過來那因為我們給他們的時間是到6月底之前要送過來那我想這段時間陸陸續續有一些縣市有一些疑慮部分我們也都一直在溝通一直在溝通當中那當然外面也有聲音就講說這個是不是時間是不是可以再延那目前我跟委員報告目前我們沒有這個正式上我們沒有說要延因為"},{"start":408.303,"end":436.941,"text":"我們認為之前整個國土計畫法的說明吶﹖內涵幾乎都已經講過好久了那民眾的疑慮我們可以透過不斷的溝通說明去跟他們讓他們去了解那有一些他們去有疑慮的事實上那些問題不是不是問題只是不太理解的關係那我們希望用民眾的語言來跟民眾溝通讓他們充分去了解比較好我們認為說好國土計畫是一個這個這個比以前的區域計畫更嚴格還是怎麼樣"},{"start":437.529,"end":445.145,"text":"我想這是溝通的問題我們會加強去溝通那縣市政府我們也希望他在6月底之前能夠送過來審查的時候有什麼意見我們再來去談就好"},{"start":446.454,"end":446.474,"text":"感謝吳長"}]}},{"id":"152337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71df72881e1a99f7eb827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac728bce2618ac0fdaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"11:23:29 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11:27:51","影片長度":"00:04:22","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":262,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:27:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:23:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（11時23分）謝謝主席，請政次。"],["主席：請政次。"],["吳次長容輝：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：政次好。政次，今天大家很關心這個問題，其實來自基層的都知道基層的辛苦在哪裡，村里長就像是土地公、土地婆一樣，大大小小的事，不管是路燈沒有亮、水溝沒有通、誰家的小狗跑去咬誰家的雞、甚至是夫妻吵架，他們都要24小時全年無休地待命處理。我相信這個提案對地方基層來說是很大、很大的鼓勵及認同，也是體恤基層真的不容易。","不過我們今天說了這麼多，還是要回歸現實，就是錢是誰要出？剛才提到有些財政比較不好的縣市，可能對六都來講，財源情況比較充裕，支付這些是沒有問題的；可是財政比較弱勢的縣市，像臺東縣就是其中之一，我們臺東就是這樣的情形，這樣的負擔，本席辦公室算過，一年村里長、民意代表的部分加起來大概四千四百多萬。四千四百多萬對臺東縣政府來講是很大的負擔，我們一個國中體育場到現在要蓋起來都還要四處籌錢，要蓋一個七千萬的體育場都要四處籌錢。","我真的要替地方說幾句話。這是用意良善，我覺得我們都支持，對於今天的提案，我是舉雙手、雙腳贊成，但是我們也要考慮到縣市的財源情形，所以本席在此強力地建議，這個部分中央要來協助，這件事你怎麼看？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員的關心。針對這部分，剛剛我們部長特別有提到，最近這幾年不管是統籌分配款或者一般性的補助款其實都有增加很多了，當然有一些縣市的確財政是比較困難的，這部分在透過財劃收支的補助機制，我想應該可以去討論，而主總及財政部應該也都有既定的機制在做。"],["黃委員建賓：就像次長剛剛講的，很多問題臺東縣又更特別，臺東縣不只是窮縣，也是原住民縣，16個鄉鎮只有綠島鄉不是原住民鄉鎮，現在我們提到要再加5%上去，變成10%，本來財政就很艱困了，如果又再加上去，我們會想到什麼？就是小時候我們要去遠足，老師很擔心，同學都很認真，明天要去遠足，但是費用要自己出，有些家庭的情況就比較允許，但是有的家庭像我們家，以我們這種勞工家庭來說，負擔會很大，我相信所有的縣市長都是父母官，像這種情形，做父母的很辛苦，也不知道該如何處理，所以這部分真的要拜託部裡幫忙，可以嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：收支差短的部分一定會有一個配套來做。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，臺東縣的部分可以協助嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：我想應該不只是臺東縣。"],["黃委員建賓：我是說臺東縣，當然還有很多縣市也有這個問題……"],["吳次長容輝：這個會考慮它的財政狀況，不要說臺東縣，像我自己的嘉義縣也窮得不得了，一樣也是財政很窮。"],["黃委員建賓：整個臺灣的財政其實有很多不同的區分……"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["黃委員建賓：比較弱勢的縣市，對於這樣的美意他們也想要來協助，可是財源不是這麼充裕，真的需要中央體恤，這個部分應該由中央來幫忙買單，不能都爽到中央，卻苦到地方政府，我覺得這樣會扭曲了一開始的美意，次長，你認同這件事嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：制度歸制度，配套的補貼歸配套的部分，我想這個應該分開。"],["黃委員建賓：我先感謝政次幫我們的忙，謝謝政次。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：感謝黃建賓委員的質詢。","請吳召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.88221875,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":10.847843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.84721875,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.352218750000002,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.76096875,"end":51.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.07346875,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.65534375,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.98409375000001,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.55096875000001,"end":83.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.42284375,"end":87.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.86534375000001,"end":88.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.77659375,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.86034375000001,"end":95.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.94846875,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.01534375,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.60034375000001,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.41721875,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.49659375000002,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.17159375,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.32346875000002,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.64721875,"end":192.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.57471875000002,"end":195.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.30409375000002,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.53471875000002,"end":205.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.37846875000002,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.58909375000002,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.18784375,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.41534375,"end":213.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.92159375,"end":217.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.07659375,"end":221.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.26221875000002,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.13909375,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.90846875000003,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.86596875,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.38034375,"end":250.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.21534375000002,"end":253.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.00409375,"end":257.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.81784375,"end":257.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.71221875000003,"end":257.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.10034375000004,"end":258.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.28159375,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.29846875000004,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":259.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.46721875000003,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.53471875,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.96909375,"end":262.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.392,"end":34.595,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請鄭次來,我們請鄭次各位好鄭次好是今天大家很關心這個問題是其實來組基站的都知道這基站的辛苦在哪裡我們想要說村里長好,土地公土地婆事情每次都壁地不管是路燈沒有亮,水溝沒有通誰家小狗跑去咬誰家的雞甚至是"},{"start":35.336,"end":55.808,"text":"夫妻吵架他都要24小時全年無休的待命我都很相信這個提案對地方這些基層來說是很大的鼓勵那是一個很大的認同也是體恤基層真的不容易不過我們今天要說這麼多我們還是要回歸現實的就是錢是誰要出"},{"start":57.042,"end":83.436,"text":"那這些剛才提到的就是有些財政比較不好的一些縣市可能對六都來講的財源情況是比較充裕的他在支付這些是沒有問題的可是財政比較弱勢的一個縣市像臺東縣就是其中之一我們臺東就是這樣的情形這樣會負擔到本縣辦公室整個我們一年這裡的村里長包括跟我們的民意代表這裡的各家的一年要四千四百多萬"},{"start":84.497,"end":106.524,"text":"四千四百多萬對台東縣政府來講是一個很大的負擔喔我們一個體育館啊我們一個國中的體育場啊到現在要蓋起來都還要四處籌錢喔七千萬的體育場都要四處籌錢那這邊就是我只要在台北可以說幾句話而已啦真的是這是用意良善我覺得我們都支持今天這個提案不是舉雙手雙腳贊成"},{"start":109.665,"end":135.305,"text":"但是這個部分我們也要考慮到縣市的財源情形所以布希歐比較喜歡強烈的建議就是這個部分中央要來協助這次要怎麼看?謝謝委員的關心那這一部分剛剛我們部長也特別有提到最近這幾年其實事實上不管統籌分配款或者一般性的補助款其實都有增加很多當然有一些縣市的確財政是比較困難的"},{"start":136.352,"end":151.989,"text":"這一部分再透過才化的這個收支的這些補助機制我想這個應該是可以去討論那這一部分在組總跟財政部這邊應該也都是有這個既定的機制在走"},{"start":153.543,"end":176.821,"text":"市長,我覺得很多問題,包括台中縣更特別,台中縣它不是鄉縣,它是原住民縣16個鄉鎮只有綠島鄉,它不是原住民鄉鎮,像我們提到的要再加15%上去變10%嘛本來就在耕耕,你又把它加起來,對他說,這個我們會想到什麼,就是小時候我們要去原住老師很開心說,同學你們都很認真,我們明年去原住,但是費用你要出"},{"start":177.481,"end":178.061,"text":"臺東縣這部分可以協助嗎?"},{"start":206.428,"end":220.605,"text":"我想這個應該不只是台東縣我講台東縣啦 當然還有很多縣是這個問題嘛這是我已經考慮他的財政狀況啦 是因為不要說這個台東縣啦 你像我自己嘉義縣馬上跟他屁了 一樣 一樣這財政也是很窮啦"},{"start":221.318,"end":250.721,"text":"所以這真的因為整個臺灣的財政是有很多不同的區分的那比較弱勢的縣市這樣的美意他們也想要來協助可是財源不是這麼充裕真的是需要中央那邊來體恤現在不然有人中央來趕倒三天還沒拖啊不能說這樣都說在你中央啊趕快就地方政府這個我覺得這個會扭曲一開始的美意市長有認同這件事嗎市長是這樣子我們制度歸制度配套的補貼歸配套的"},{"start":251.241,"end":251.422,"text":"感謝黃建賓委員"}]}},{"id":"152336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf7137f2fd2bf23471df827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac72d6590a054ec0c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:16:33 - 11:23:23","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":410,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:23:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:16:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我們請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：次長好。首先我還是要講一下，因為今天送進來這些民代的條例總共有37個版本，可是在上禮拜五的時候有幾個版本是被逕付二讀的，這樣會造成什麼結果？我認為上禮拜逕付二讀的，包括傅崐萁總召、黃國昌總召的這些版本，會略顯粗暴而且有缺漏，因為他們並沒有送到我們委員會來仔細討論。剛剛其實很多委員都有提到一些，我們每一個項目都應該要非常詳細地討論，包括這些為民服務費要調到多少，然後助理總額要調多少，而原住民族的這些民意代表是不是要有另外調升的額度？甚至是這些加班費、助理費，然後資遣費怎麼算，這個其實都應該要坐在這裡好好地討論，可是卻有人略過這個程序，並沒有尊重我們的委員會中心主義，我認為這是非常非常不妥當的，也對於這37個送進來的版本非常不公平。甚至送進來的版本都是不分黨派，很多是國民黨委員的版本，難道他們的版本就不被這樣子同樣的規格對待嗎？","次長，我想要先請教，現在你們院版其實已經有送出來了，只是還沒有送進來，我覺得還是必須要講一下，這一次你們調升的有哪些項目，有包括助理的加班費、資遣費嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：跟委員報告，這一次修法包括幾項，一個是助理費的補助，這個額度有提高，比如直轄市的部分，我們從24萬增加到30萬；縣市議員是從8萬調到14萬，也就是各加了6萬塊。另外，我們定額還補助了助理的加班費，我們用助理總額部分，外加20%來算，直轄市大概會增加，從原來的4萬加2萬變6萬；縣市大概……"],["黃委員捷：那村里長的年終，可不可以跟大家說明一下？還有原住民議員的部分。"],["吳次長容輝：年終的部分，現在就村里長，事務補助的部分，我們也增訂了春節慰問金1.5個月，按照事務補助費5萬塊做基準。"],["黃委員捷：也就是7.5萬。"],["吳次長容輝：另外就是原住民的部分，有考量到他們因為幅員比較大，而且也比較散居或者交通不便，所以我們增加了為民服務費10%。"],["黃委員捷：是，這一次我們院版的版本算是非常地完整。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["黃委員捷：這也是大家期待已久的，所以我認為在這邊討論真的非常非常重要。我覺得還有一個很重要的，就是接下來助理費的總額會隨著軍公教來調薪。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["黃委員捷：隨時的調整也非常重要，而不是一直讓我們議員助理看著其他公務員、其他軍公教，甚至立院的公費助理也都一直在調漲了，但是卻讓議員的助理沒有辦法，就是只能24年凍在這裡。再來，我要花點時間跟次長請教一下，雖然你們說接下來會有20%的加班費及資遣費的編列，但是我認為這個算法還是有一點不夠精確，因為現在的4萬塊是我們把助理的總額增加，然後助理人數的下限也提高為至少7人，但是現在加上去的加班費，很可能實質讓助理領到的加班費還是偏少的。","我們看一下簡報，這個是現在的狀況，現在是24萬、沒有加班費，如果之後變成最低要7人、30萬的話，每個人拿到的加班費只有885塊，這個是我算出來的，並不是內政部說的2萬塊。也就是說，雖然到時候增加了，但是助理手上拿到的加班費還是滿少的，這其實是我最擔心的問題，因為我一直以來想幫助理爭取的，就是比照勞基法該給的加班費、該給的資遣費、該隨軍公教調整的薪資，都應該如實地送到助理手上，這是他們應得的權益；可是以我們這一次調升的比例，我認為到時候助理真的能夠拿到的加班費還是杯水車薪。所以我想問一下次長，你們有沒有發現這個版本有這個問題？剛剛其實也有委員提到類似的問題，這是這一次我覺得比較遺憾的地方，其他我認為補助村里長的辛苦都很好，一定要予以肯定，對於這一次的加班費缺漏，你怎麼看？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。我們當初提這個修正版本的時候，在設算上也有考慮，這就涉及到地方財政的問題……"],["黃委員捷：當然。"],["吳次長容輝：因為我也不能把它設算得很高，也要考慮到地方的財政。"],["黃委員捷：我知道，我是說當然現實有一些財務的考量，沒有辦法百分之百編列，但這個其實是我這一次最關心、最關心的項目，也是我認為這一次最重要的，因為助理過去都沒有拿到加班費，結果依照這一次我們編下去的版本，其實繳完勞健保、繳完勞退就差不多了，因為你把它跟加班費全部放在一起，都放在那個20%裡面了。所以我想問一下，接下來有沒有比較好的調整方式，或是接下來有沒有機會再來做更好的調整？因為這樣子對助理來說還是不夠公平。"],["吳次長容輝：委員，這個可能也要跟聘用助理的上限，或者我們現在訂下限，把上限取消……"],["黃委員捷：我們現在沒有上限了。"],["吳次長容輝：對，我們把它取消掉，跟這個有關係……"],["黃委員捷：是，沒錯。"],["吳次長容輝：因為按照我們的統計，目前為止，直轄市聘的助理大概平均是6.4人，所以我們就訂在最少要7人以上；縣市議員的部分，我們估計平均有2.3人，所以我們把它訂在3人，這個可能要一併去考慮。"],["黃委員捷：所以這個人數也是我希望等一下可以再來調整的部分。"],["吳次長容輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝次長。謝謝大家，拜託大家一起支持助理的權益，謝謝！"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：感謝黃捷委員。","請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.13971875,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.91159375,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.92846875,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.34596875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.53096875,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.08534375,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.98346875,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.07346875,"end":140.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.84471875,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.54846875,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.08721875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":156.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.56346875,"end":169.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.42221875,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.61159375,"end":173.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.44096875000002,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":285.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.31534375,"end":309.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.34909375,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.97409375,"end":325.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.46596875,"end":322.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.65971875,"end":342.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.83221875000004,"end":328.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.66659375,"end":334.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.30221875,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.89596875,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.44221875000005,"end":375.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.35221875,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.36471875,"end":399.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":377.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.01409375000003,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.73721875,"end":396.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.23909375000005,"end":397.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.21346875,"end":406.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.90096875,"end":400.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.18346875000003,"end":403.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.08971875000003,"end":409.46909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.636,"end":6.816,"text":"主席"},{"start":13.721,"end":38.839,"text":"市長好首先我還是要講一下說因為其實今天送進來這些民代條例總共有37個版本可是在上禮拜五的時候有幾個版本是被禁負二讀的那這樣會造成什麼結果就是我認為上禮拜禁負二讀的包括富坤崎總召黃國昌總召的這些版本會略顯粗暴而且有缺漏因為他們並沒有送到我們委員會來仔細的討論"},{"start":41.261,"end":61.139,"text":"那剛剛其實很多委員都有提到一些我們每一個項目都應該非常詳細討論包括說這些為民服務費要調到多少然後助理總額要調多少那原住民族的這些民意代表是不是要有另外的調升的額度甚至是說這些加班費助理費然後資遣費怎麼算這個其實都應該要坐在這裡好好的討論可是卻有人"},{"start":66.724,"end":85.436,"text":"通過這個程序並沒有尊重我們委員會的中心主義我認為這是非常非常不妥當的也對於這37個送進來的版本非常不公平甚至送進來的版本也都是不分黨派甚至很多是國民黨委員的版本難道他們的版本就不被這樣子同樣的規格對待嗎"},{"start":88.118,"end":103.972,"text":"那當然次長我想要先請教一下因為現在既然你們院板其實已經有送出來了只是說還沒有送進來那我覺得最必須還是要講一下說那這一次你們調生的有哪些項目有包括助理的加班費資遣費嗎"},{"start":106.784,"end":126.777,"text":"跟委員報告這一次修好有包括幾項一個是助理費的補助這個額度有提高那比如這個直轄市的部分從24萬增加到30萬那縣市議員是從8萬調到14萬也就各加了6萬塊另外我們定額還補助了這個助理的加班費"},{"start":127.657,"end":155.129,"text":"那這個我們用助理總額的外加20%來算那直轄市大概會增加4萬從原來的4萬加2萬變6萬那現在是大概1.5個月 村里長的年終可不可以跟大家說明一下還有我們原住民議員的部分年終的部分我們現在村里長的部分事務補助費的部分我們也加了一個這個增訂了一個村賊慰問金1.5個月按照這個事務補助費5萬塊做基準"},{"start":157.09,"end":180.763,"text":"另外就是原住民的部分有考量到他們因爲復原比較大而且這一個也比較散居或者交通不便所以我們增加了10%的未免復原的10%是 這一次我們院版的版本算是非常的完整這也是大家期待已久的所以我認為在這邊討論真的非常非常重要我覺得還有一個很重要的是接下來我們的助理費的總額會隨著軍公教來調薪"},{"start":185.366,"end":205.061,"text":"這個隨時的調整也非常重要而不是一直讓我們議員助理看著說其他公務員其他軍公教然後甚至立院的公費助理也都一直在調漲了但是卻讓議員的助理沒有辦法就是只能24年凍在這裡那再來我要花點時間跟次長請教一下這個雖然你們說接下來會有20%的這個加班費跟資遣費的編列"},{"start":210.385,"end":232.964,"text":"但是我認為這個算法還是有一點不夠精確的是因為現在的這個4萬塊是我們把助理的總額增加然後助理的人數的下限也提高了就是說至少7人但是呢現在我們加上去的這個加班費很可能讓實質讓助理領到加班費還是偏少的那我們看一下我們的簡報"},{"start":234.345,"end":259.135,"text":"這個是現在的這個狀況就是現在是24萬然後沒有加班費那如果之後變成是最低要7人然後是30萬的話每個人拿到的加班費只有885塊這個是我來算出來的並不是內政部說的2萬塊也就是說雖然到時候我們增加了但是真的拿到助理手上拿到的加班費還是蠻少的喔"},{"start":261.816,"end":283.332,"text":"這其實是我最擔心的問題因為我一直以來想幫助理的爭取就是比照牢記法該給的加班費該給的資遣費該隨軍公教調整的薪資都應該如實的送到助理手上這是他們應得的權益可是我們這一次調升的這個比例我認為到時候助理真的能夠拿到的加班費還是還是杯水車薪"},{"start":286.494,"end":308.789,"text":"所以我想問一下說次長現在這個版本你們有沒有發現這個問題剛其實有委員提到類似的問題我覺得這是我這一次其實覺得比較遺憾的地方其他我都認為來補助這個村里長的辛苦這個都很好一定要予以肯定但這一次的這個加班費的這個缺漏你怎麼看"},{"start":310.655,"end":324.356,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們當初在提這個修正版本的時候在設算上我們也有考慮啦當然這就涉及到這個地方的這個財政的問題當然因為我也不能把它設算的很高我知道我是說"},{"start":325.257,"end":325.277,"text":"議員：黃捷"},{"start":343.431,"end":364.333,"text":"其實你繳完勞健保繳完勞退就差不多了因為你把它跟加班費全部放在一起都放在那個20%裡面了所以我想問一下說這個接下來有沒有比較好的再調整的方式或是接下來有沒有你們有機會再來做更好的調整因為這樣子對助理來說還是不夠公平"},{"start":365.858,"end":388.596,"text":"委員這樣子因為這個可能也要跟聘用助理的這個上限或者我們現在要定下限把上限取消我們現在沒有上限了對我們把它取消掉這個有關係因為按照我們的統計大概目前為止這個直轄市來聘的助理大概平均是6.4人所以我們就把它這個說最少你要7人以上"},{"start":389.136,"end":389.316,"text":"謝謝我們感謝黃捷委員"}]}},{"id":"152335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71b934af9bcc836fb7827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac70d1fb675c659de675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:08:37 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11:16:27","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":470,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:16:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:08:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長早安，今天花一點點時間來討論民意代表的費用，其實大家主張的東西很多、很不一樣，待會還有逐條討論，所以沒有關係。本席的主張是這樣：福利從優，審查從速。既然要談，因為民意代表尤其是議員助理費的部分其實已經二十幾年沒有動了，中間公教人員都加薪蠻多了，所以遲早要面對這個問題，但我是認為面對這個問題，要做就要一步到位來顧好品質，我的主張是這樣。所以針對院版的部分，我們來做一下討論。我想先請教次長，為什麼我們要有公費助理的機制？"],["吳次長容輝：我這裡特別跟委員報告一下，其實助理的補助費不是公費，所以這次我們把公費拿掉。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你認為不應該有公費助理的機制嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：因為現在的助理跟議員的關係是雇主跟勞工。"],["牛委員煦庭：當初為什麼有公費助理？當初為什麼界定叫公費助理？為什麼？"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分我倒不是很瞭解，是不是我們司長來來跟您說明？"],["牛委員煦庭：快，時間有限。為什麼要公費？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：當初是因為預算，所以有編列預算來補助。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼政府要補助議員去請助理？為什麼？你瞭解這個政策的核心目標跟概念是什麼……"],["鄭代理司長英弘：就是助理可以協助議員來問政，因為議會有編列預算，所以當初用「公費」兩個字。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼要公費？是因為公平性。為什麼要公平性？因為今天我們大家都是投票選出來的民意代表，可是有人家底很雄厚，有人家底很單薄，如果把助理這件事情單純定義為這就是民意代表私人的民事僱傭關係，那麼家底雄厚的民意代表可以有二、三十個或三、四十個助理，沒有問題，因為他出得起。可是相對來講，素人出身、相對年輕的，他可能沒有這麼多條件的時候，他的助理就變少了，形成不公平競爭，也形成服務品質的差別。這就是問題，所以國家當初設定公費助理制度的初衷應該是這件事吧！我這樣講有問題嗎？還是你們反對這樣的說法？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：初衷是讓助理協助議員來問政……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["鄭代理司長英弘：可能有些議員的這個部分需要做一些補助，所以這個補助是一個混合補助……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你要有一個基本款，是大家都公平的情況。"],["鄭代理司長英弘：是一個混合補助的概念。"],["牛委員煦庭：確保基礎的問政品質，對不對？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：如果議員有需要聘更多的助理，需要更多經費的話，可能就需要議員自己……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你今天把公費拿掉其實是很危險的事情，這是我要跟你講的第一件事。","第二件事情，為什麼大家講要檢討，然後大家去談議員助理也要隨著時代改變，他的勞工待遇也要與時俱進，所以不只是薪水的補助，他也要有加班費、有資遣費、有職災補償等等相關的一些措施。當然行政院現在也調，以前大家從來不去談議員的助理能不能有加班費，現在講有加班費。但因為我很好奇，你們院版當初算出來，我以直轄市議員為例，30萬元的公費助理費用，對不對？其中有20%之內是算做加班費跟各種補助，你們當初是怎麼算這個標準的？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：目前各個議會都有編列預算來補助助理的勞退跟健保等等費用。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，勞保、勞退、健保，對不對？雇主負擔的部分是有的。"],["鄭代理司長英弘：對，目前就有一些基本的費用。目前我們如果設算之後，大概直轄市跟縣市的部分都會增加2萬左右，就是直轄市原來編列的經費是4萬，提升到6萬；縣市的部分1.2萬，提升到2.8萬，大概我們都已經設算過了。"],["牛委員煦庭：設算過了，你確定嗎？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得在院版，假設以院版為基礎通過之後，一個直轄市議員或者是縣市議員，他一個月可以多編出多少的加班費給他滿編的助理？"],["鄭代理司長英弘：直轄市的部分可以4萬提升到6萬，大概每一年如果直轄市提升到6萬的話，議會要增加9,048萬；縣市的部分，由1.2萬提高到2.8萬，會增加1億233萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長，你對這個都沒有研究，這不是你的守備範圍還是怎麼樣？"],["吳次長容輝：不是，我特別要跟委員報告，加班部分，我們現在用助理費額度的2%來提列，以前是勞健保、勞退，現在我們增加了資遣費跟加班費這部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，這是我今天要跟你討論的事情，你看一下表格，按照30萬的基準來算，我們用簡單的算法，就是平均，我請7個助理，一個是認真服務，不管是跑紅白帖到寫法案、協助問政的助理，我給他四萬兩千塊，不為過吧！合理，對不對？我如果7個，你30萬的額度，我差不多請7個人，對不對？7個人裡面，四萬兩千多塊，勞保、勞退加健保，每一個助理就八千四百多塊，7個助理加起來多少錢？5萬9,115元啊！你剛剛講，按照你院版的版本，這個實際上法定預算編列的20%以內，也就是你只有6萬塊的經費，你光是付勞保、勞退、健保，付完之後，五萬九千一百多塊就不見了，請問這是哪門子有加班費啊？平均一個議員一個月只有885塊的加班費可以給自己的助理，那有修跟沒修，請問有什麼不一樣？"],["吳次長容輝：跟委員報告，原本直轄市大概是4萬，就補貼他的勞健保、勞退……"],["牛委員煦庭：現行的狀況，24萬加4萬，大概也就是勞健保用完嘛！你把它提升到30萬，結果你這個只編6萬，而且不是外加的方式，到最後還是沒有加班費啊！那不是修來修去都一樣嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：本來4萬，現在外加2萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你外加2萬，總額提升到了30萬，所以不管是用什麼樣的排列組合算，你都不會有額外的加班費出現啊！因為光是付勞保、勞退加健保，就已經把這一筆6萬塊錢全部用完了，你們有沒有算到這件事？"],["吳次長容輝：我們現在還有一個東西，這跟助理人數的下限是有關係的。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，可是問題就是，你即便改變算法，我剛剛也試過了，比如兩個主任加上一般比較基層的，算起來還是不會有加班費。","再看縣市議員的部分也是一樣，縣市議員按照院版變成14萬，也許是3個人、4個人或5個人，不管你怎麼樣搞排列組合都一樣，你所謂加班費的20%用在勞保、勞退、健保，用完就沒有了！可以調度加班費的額度剩下幾百塊，有跟沒有，不一樣。所以今天要修，我肯定你，但是我講，除了審查從速之外，我們也主張福利從優。今天有這麼多條文要討論，我們先講這一件事情，如果我們的加班費按照你現行的法條，等於是沒有！不要朝三暮四，大家都是搞政治的人，助理是很辛苦的，要做當然是要用外加的方式來處理，好不好？內政部在做這個事我們都肯定，我覺得這件事情不要在那邊藍的講綠的綁樁、綠的講藍的綁樁，那沒意思啦！我們講的是提升基層的服務品質跟勞動待遇，對不對？但既然要做就把它做好。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望待會的討論可以往這些方向來對焦，福利從優，審查從速。"],["吳次長容輝：好，委員，我想這一部分我們都有考量在內，這個等一下在討論的時候也可以跟委員再報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！你這個考量在內，到最後只有一千塊不到的加班費編下去，大家會覺得好像期待很高，最後發現好像都不是這樣。所以該調的額度要調整、該修的法條要做修正，我們要從優處理，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：是，好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","下一位黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.72534375,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.58159375,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.19721875,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.61909375,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.66971875,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.73721875,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.27721875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":52.461593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.57346875,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.60596875,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.828468750000006,"end":75.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.59034375,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.83409375000001,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.88471875,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.18784375,"end":84.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.54971875000001,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.03909375,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.15721875,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.20784375000001,"end":83.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.59159375,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.65909375000001,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.03846875,"end":88.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.88221875,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.67909375,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.90659375,"end":101.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.56784375000001,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.52409375,"end":116.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.02534375,"end":119.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.67471875000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.67846875000001,"end":130.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.86284375,"end":133.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.78221875,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.03034375000001,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.43534375000002,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.80221875,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.96096875,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.94784375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.59284375000001,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.58346875,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.22221875000002,"end":216.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.55409375000002,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.76471875000001,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.26659375000003,"end":220.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.24534375000002,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.03471875000002,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.50721875000002,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.48596875,"end":247.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.22846875000002,"end":254.38784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.47221875000002,"end":258.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.91034375000004,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.21784375000004,"end":264.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.01909375,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.38784375,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.02909375,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.60659375,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.44159375000004,"end":298.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.97159375,"end":311.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.33659375,"end":318.20909375},{"speaker":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我們都肯定我覺得這件事情不要在那邊藍的講綠的綁裝 綠的講藍的綁裝 那不藝術啦我們講的是提升基層的服務品質跟勞動待遇嘛 對不對但既然要做就把它做好來我希望待會的討論可以往這些方向來對焦福利從優 審查總數"},{"start":452.374,"end":467.429,"text":"對阿你這個考量在內到最後只有一兩一千塊不到的加班費編下去大家會覺得好像期待很高阿最後發現好像都不是這樣所以該條的額度要調整該修的法條要做修正我們要從優處理好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"152334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf719b08582dd377808d827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac76ae45aca37e5d7365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:02:04 - 11:08:28","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":384,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:08:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T11:02:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時2分）謝謝，請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["李委員柏毅：次長，首先我感謝召委，有關於地方民代補助條例，其實在院版提出之前我們就有提出修正草案，提案的原因是這二十幾年來助理都沒有調整薪資。我們講近8年好了，我自己遇到的例子，從2016年到2024年民進黨政府調整基本工資37%，一開始調的時候，我在高雄市議會，我有議員同事就很豪氣的跟助理說，地方制度法沒有修正以前，助理費上限24萬沒有辦法調整，但是我私人加給你3%，第一次加3%，加到後來加到37%的時候，已經不知道要怎麼跟助理說要繼續幫你加了。我幫你算了一下，也幫過去我的同事算了一下，如果從民進黨政府執政開始，2016年開始，助理費的薪資上限24萬一共加了27%，加到現在代表上限其實已經要達到32.88萬元，乘以1.37，應該已經到這一個數字了，也就是說，如果從頭到尾都跟著基本工資調整的比率加給他的助理，或者是跟著公務人員加薪的比率加給助理的話，其實每個月都已經多負擔大概8萬塊，這是今天我們在這裡討論這個有三十幾位立委提案修法的原因。","也很高興今天委員會可以安排這個議程，跟國民黨委員、民進黨委員一起逐條來討論，如果沒有逐條討論，跳過內政委員會直接進入二讀的話，請問次長，到底要加多少？到底加班費要怎麼加？我們要不要納入部分工時？人數限制要不要納入？還有村里長被抽出的版本，沒有村里長事務補助費的春節慰問金、原民議員因為交通不便的事務補助費加給等等，以上這些問題大會怎麼討論？所以很感謝內政委員會今天安排審查，等一下進入逐條討論時可以逐條來審議每一項提案。","次長，自2016年到2024年基本薪資已經加到37%、公務員也已經加薪17%，有關助理費的調整，內政部在委員提案之後才提出來的版本，在方向上是否與委員一致？還有如同我們剛剛講的，可能還有部分工時，以及將助理費甚至里長的事務補助費隨著公務員調薪調整制度化，有沒有一併來討論的空間和方向？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員的指教，也謝謝委員的關心，我想這個案子就像我剛剛講，大家都有一致的共識，有關於院版的條文等一下我們會去討論。"],["李委員柏毅：這個金額上限從24萬到現在已經加了37%，變成32.88萬元，而我們知道現在院版提出來的大概是30萬元，我們希望一定要加上，因為我們不可能期待兩年後的委員會因為公務人員薪資增加的時候，委員會就會自己提出來再幫這些助理增加這些費用，社會也不會接受，那是不是可以一併納入這次的條文裡面？"],["吳次長容輝：可以，因為我們希望能建立固定的機制，不能因為其他狀況，比如這一次我們並沒有把事務費納入隨著公務人員調薪來調整，它比較特別是因為在111年有調過一次。"],["李委員柏毅：對，111年從四萬五調整到五萬，這一次增加的不是事務費，這一次增加的是很多里長的心聲，我故意在母親節活動的時候，在鄉親面前關心說，里長有年終獎金嗎？里長說沒有，很多鄉親才知道原來里長是沒有年終獎金的。所以這一次我們提出里長也應該有春節慰勞金1.5個月，在方向上，我想大家也體認到現在臺灣所有里長們的辛苦。","最後，感謝內政委員會持續來討論，在司法委員會已經提散會動議的情況下，我們內政委員會持續逐條來討論到底村里長春節慰問金還有直轄市及縣市議員助理費用的調整，希望能繼續逐條來做理性的討論，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢。","下一位請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.185968750000001,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.134718750000001,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.489093750000002,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.607218750000001,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.94096875,"end":38.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.36596875,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.29346875,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.204093750000006,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.587218750000005,"end":60.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.96659375,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.75471875000001,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.19659375,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.00596875000001,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.25846875,"end":89.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.66159375000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.61846875,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.30971875,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.30534375,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.11534375000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.56159375,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.64159375000001,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.04159375,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.27721875,"end":144.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.63284375,"end":146.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.99534375000002,"end":147.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":153.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.52596875,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.51721875,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.27596875,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.57096875000002,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.07221875000002,"end":168.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.35471875000002,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.36284375000002,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.71159375000002,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.78846875000002,"end":204.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":208.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":216.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.63846875000002,"end":219.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.54096875000002,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.35409375,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.55971875,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.75721875000002,"end":240.49971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.03971875000002,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.26221875000002,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.27909375000002,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.09159375,"end":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謝謝委員的指教也謝謝委員的關心我想這個案子就像我剛剛講大家都有一致的共識但對於這個院版的條件當然等一下我們會去討論那我剛講的齁到底這個金額從24萬上限到我們已經加了37%變成32.88萬那現在院版我們知道提出來的大概是在30萬但是我們希望是一定要加上就是說我們也不可能期待兩年後的委員會"},{"start":278.319,"end":302.521,"text":"他因為這個公務人員基本性是增加的時候委員會就會自己提出來說那我們再幫這些助理來增加這些費用社會也不會接受那是不是一併的可以來放入這個條文裡面因為這個是我們希望能建立這個固定的這個機制不能因為說這個其他狀況比如說事務會在這一次我們並沒有把他納到這個公務人員條例"},{"start":305.017,"end":305.217,"text":"李長說沒有啊"},{"start":333.154,"end":333.254,"text":"最後﹖"},{"start":353.735,"end":380.965,"text":"感謝我們內政委員會會持續的來做這個討論在司法委員會其實已經被提上會動議的情況下那我們內政委員會來持續每一條來討論到底村里長的這個春節慰問金還有我們直轄市議員及縣市議員的助理的這個費用的調整是不是應該要繼續逐條的來做一些理性的討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf718fd7d9a7bffc737e827cef00f012e52e36499d1b681a2ac7274b52413cc438d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:53:43 - 11:01:54","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":491,"end_time":"2024-05-08T11:01:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:53:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時53分）主席，請內政部吳政次跟賦稅署王專門委員。"],["主席：請次長還有……"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：政次好。我想請教一下，到今天為止，有幾個縣市有提交國土功能分區圖？"],["吳次長容輝：據我所瞭解，好像是3個縣市。"],["許委員宇甄：3個縣市嘛。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["許委員宇甄：據我瞭解也是這樣。請問國土計畫法是不是會延後上路？因為這件事情全國大家都在關心。"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，原則上我們還是按照既定的期程。"],["許委員宇甄：可是現在只有3個縣市提交喔！所以表示這個部分可能會有很多窒礙難行的地方。"],["吳次長容輝：到6月底之前，我想其他縣市應該會陸陸續續報上來。"],["許委員宇甄：可能要瞭解一下這些縣市到現在沒有提交的原因是什麼，要協助他們。"],["吳次長容輝：是，這部分我們會去瞭解。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，好。這個部分如果在這之前沒有辦法……因為其實本席也有提案，覺得應該要慎重地來處理這樣的一個國土計畫法，因為尤其對於一些農業縣，對他們來說其實影響甚大，所以這個部分我覺得內政部這邊應該要審慎地去瞭解各縣市的需求，然後提出來之後相關的……不要說倉促地讓國土計畫法上路。"],["吳次長容輝：是，謝謝委員指教。這部分我們會再跟縣市政府溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，謝謝。另外，次長，我想在座各位包括本席，大家都很支持今天的修法，但是有幾個問題想要請教您，就是我們這個補助條例從民國89年制定到現在已經歷經24個寒暑，委員們都在幫村里長爭取調薪或加發年終獎金，直到去年有調高了5,000元。蔡政府上任到現在都已經滿8年了，為什麼會在交接前突然宣布要發給村里長春節慰問金這項政策？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我剛剛特別也講了，這個議題已經很早就談，談了好幾年，在我所瞭解已經談超過十幾年了，也不是因為到蔡總統要卸任才去談這個問題，其實在去年、在111年的時候，事務費是從4萬5,000調到5萬，調了5,000，其實在這個經過……"],["許委員宇甄：好，我知道。因為時間的關係，我想我這次提出來，過去這麼久了，大家都在提這個問題，其實過去有8年的時間，蔡政府可以做這件事情，可是卻在這個時候才提，而且這件事情在行政院還沒有通過修法版本之前，我們內政部長林右昌就率先公布，像這個部分，為什麼一個尚沒有經過行政院通過的修正法案，內政部不像國土計畫法這麼謹慎小心，一定要等到行政院協調通過之後才能夠宣布？這次卻這麼快，在行政院都還沒有宣布之前，就已經率先公布了。"],["吳次長容輝：那個是村里長聯誼會有來找過部長，部長那一天有過去，他們跟部長反映，先跟他做初步的回應，在這個過程當中，立委剛剛就特別提到，在這個過程當中，因為這涉及到地方財政，一直跟地方在做溝通，所以時間會比較……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛你也提到地方財政的問題，其實地方財政相對的艱困，所以這邊本席也要要求，這個部分是不是應該要由中央來買單？否則到時候地方財政根本沒辦法支付，就變成中央通過這項政策的時候，可是地方卻沒有辦法來處理。"],["吳次長容輝：委員，是這樣子啦，按照地制法或者是財劃法的規定，這個財源必須要由地方來做。"],["許委員宇甄：我知道。"],["吳次長容輝：我們也有一個機制，財政收支短差的部分也有一個補助的機制，這個在財政部或者主總那邊都會有這個機制，我們認為制度歸制度，不能因為說特別是這個案子，因為這是朝野的共識，也沒有所謂說朝野大家認為這個應該由中央來負責，因為如果是這樣子的話，那地制法跟財劃法的規定就等於沒有用，那就沒有意義。"],["許委員宇甄：等一下我想有些委員會提案，有這樣子的要求。"],["吳次長容輝：是，也有。"],["許委員宇甄：本席也希望這部分是由中央來買單，以解決地方財政的困難，因為畢竟現在財劃法也還沒修正嘛。"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，春節慰問金要不要報稅？"],["吳次長容輝：這部分原則上我們認為，因為村里長都不是公務人員，他是無給職，既然是無給職，這是事務補助費，那就不是他的個人所得，我們是認為不應該去課稅，但是這個要看看……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下賦稅署，村里長的春節慰問金是不是需要繳稅？"],["王專門委員俊龍：報告委員，針對村里長本身現行的事務補助費，我們之前在75年的時候有發過相關解釋，就是說這些事務補助費……"],["許委員宇甄：免納所得稅，對不對？"],["王專門委員俊龍：對、對、對，至於說……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分我覺得賦稅署應該要發函給財政部，說明這個春節慰問金應該是要比照村里長處理村里事務及推行政令這種免納所得稅，好嗎？"],["王專門委員俊龍：是，這個春節慰問金的性質如何，可能我們要跟內政部再來討論一下。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，好，那就麻煩內政部這邊。另外還有一個問題要請教，就是我們這幾年的CPI已經連續三年都增加，民眾已經苦嘗了3年高物價之苦，基本工資一直調漲，可是議員的公費助理補助費還有村里長的相關費用卻一直都沒有調整，尤其像這次經過那麼多年，然後在蔡政府任期第8年的時候做了這樣的調整，未來是不是能夠讓他們的事務費跟助理薪資隨著公務員調薪一起來調整？"],["吳次長容輝：跟委員報告，這一部分大家可以來討論，因為現在我們的版本裡面這一部分是沒有的，但是如果各位委員有這個共識，我們也可以……"],["許委員宇甄：好，非常好。","另外還再請教您一個問題，就是本席還有一個提案要增加為民服務費，因為我們都知道，在地方上大家大小事都是找村里長，但他們卻沒有辦法有為民服務費，是不是也能夠把村里長的為民服務費一個月增加3,000元？是不是能夠來做這樣的調整？"],["吳次長容輝：委員，我可能要跟您報告一下，現在村里長的事務補助費就涵蓋了為民服務的性質，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：一般事務補助費大概講的就是一些比如水電支出、文具等等，應該跟為民服務不一樣吧？"],["吳次長容輝：一樣，為民服務也是一樣啊，包括平常的行政支出。"],["許委員宇甄：比如有人來拜託找小狗、小貓、清水溝，這個都應該算是為民服務吧？"],["吳次長容輝：是啊，這個都包括在裡面，所以事務補助費和為民服務費其實性質都一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：可是事務補助費跟為民服務費應該是不一樣，我覺得內政部可能要先研議一下。"],["吳次長容輝：內容都可以，事務補助費本來就是一個彈性，對於公共支出或服務支出都是。"],["許委員宇甄：不過我想這個部分民代都有，連市民代表都有，現在3,000元增加到5,000元，只有村里長沒有，我們還是希望這部分能夠審慎研議，待會當然我們要逐條討論，大家有提出這個提案，我們再來討論，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.755968750000001,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.232218750000001,"end":8.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.66659375,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.700343750000002,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.223468750000002,"end":10.240343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.240343750000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.375343750000003,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.864718750000002,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.231593750000002,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.53034375,"end":23.672843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.83721875,"end":27.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.90846875,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.684718750000002,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.05471875,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.80096875,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.95659375,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.67784375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.93471875,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.587843750000005,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.89471875,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.58909375,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.38846875,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.54409375,"end":93.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.80971875,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.11346875000001,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.24846875,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.82409375,"end":109.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.70721875000001,"end":130.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.96409375000002,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.70159375,"end":142.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.74284375000002,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.59034375000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.69909375,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.82534375,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.28971875000002,"end":182.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.97284375,"end":184.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.35659375,"end":186.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.70221875000001,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.29596875000001,"end":207.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.61159375000003,"end":199.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.93096875,"end":214.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.63034375,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.83284375000002,"end":214.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.46534375000002,"end":236.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.63534375,"end":237.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.32721875000001,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.94659375,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.73534375000003,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.05034375000002,"end":254.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.09659375,"end":255.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.45909375,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.27721875000003,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.88409375000003,"end":276.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.93721875,"end":290.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.07596875,"end":280.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.65534375000004,"end":312.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.53971875,"end":309.0122187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10:53:34","影片長度":"00:08:46","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例」修正草案等37案，詳見議事日程。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":526,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:53:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T10:44:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時44分）主席你好，請政次。"],["主席：好，請政次，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：政次早，今天我們就是要討論里長春節的慰問金跟地方議員的助理費及事務費。剛才我們同事可能聽的不太對，我不是說今天排這個是有人「割稻尾」，我的意思是內政委員會已經排了，我們要把法修齊全，每個黨都可以在內政委員會討論，不用在上個星期五抽出來二讀。","再來，我相信他們自己的委員也有很多意見，所以今天我們也感謝召委可以排入這個議程。剛才我說的是，上一屆我當立委的時候，我就提出這個聲音和意見，過程中我們都常常說沒辦法編里長事務費，當時我也感謝蘇貞昌院長願意坐下來聽大家討論這個事務費，經過111年的討論之後，在112年從4萬5,000提高到5萬，在這個過程當中，本席也有提到是不是要以春節過年的獎金來發放，不過過程中沒有得到共識，所以在這屆會期，好在本席繼續努力當選，所以可以參與這個問題。次長，本席要問的是，你們遇到了什麼困難，還是可以怎麼處理的，麻煩你再說明一下。"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，特別感謝委員關心我們地方民意代表跟村里長相關的補助，關於這個議題及補助條例的修法，我想朝野都有共識，其實這個議題很早就已經談了，不是今天才在談。據我瞭解，在108年開始討論時，到109年、111年、113年，再加上我來內政部以後，我參加過兩次的議長、副議長的聯誼會，幾乎所有案都有提出來討論這個議題。這次院版的修正，我們也把相關的基層意見都納進去了，所以剛剛委員特別提到的，我們很認同委員的意見，針對村里長的事務補助費，我們這一次也考量到村里長的辛苦，再加上現在各行各業其實也都有所謂的年終獎金或者是慰問金的發給，只有村里長沒有，這一次我們就把它放進去，用事務補助費的5萬塊做基準，把它調成跟一般一樣，加發1.5個月的春節慰問金，以上報告。"],["王委員美惠：好，感謝政次的說明。本席在此要向你探討的就是，我們做議員、做立委的，怎麼辛苦都沒關係，因為我覺得這是歡喜做甘願受的，不過說實在的，對於議員的助理不能讓他們超時，也不能讓他們做到沒日沒夜，這樣是違法的，所以為什麼要提高他們助理的人事費用，因為長久以來，有很多我們的助理不管服務也好、做什麼也好，有時候就要輪班，要他們早上不要來、下午再來，下午來可以上班到比較晚，所以我們也怕他做到超時，這不應該，所以在這個過程當中，關於助理費的提高，像地方，我們嘉義市本來是8萬，提高到14萬，我們的五都是從24萬提高到30萬，而我們的事務費，五都是由4萬提高到6萬，2萬提高到4萬，像我們嘉義市是從9,000提高到2萬塊，在這個過程當中，我覺得是不足的，還是不足，你認為這個事務費要如何調整才能夠符合現在的時機、環境跟物價的上漲？"],["吳次長容輝：委員，我跟您報告，這次修法主要也是考量到要健全議員助理的聘用制度，當然助理都很辛苦，我們村里長也都是一樣，所以我們這次才會做這樣的一個修法，另外一個就是我們要保障助理的勞動權益，所以我們做了一些像剛剛委員特別提到的這些加班費或者是他的助理費，我們提的院版這個額度大概都有參酌一些因素、面向來做調整，當然委員所提我們院版調整的幅度到底是不是最恰當的？當然這個大家可以來討論。"],["王委員美惠：重點就是說，今天我們委員會安排討論議員的助理費以及里長的賞金費用是非常重要，所以大家都是坐下來談，以現在的環境情況去看調整多少比較合適，當然有些是一定會做不到，但是在做不到當中，我們要怎麼調整到比較接近現在的環境情況？政次，本席相信我的同事、同仁都是來自地方，有看到地方的欠缺才會去提這個案，因為我們知道每一次法案的立法，如果沒有通過的時候，我們就是再重新開始提案，在開始提案當中，我們就是要怎麼樣收好、收齊全。在這裡面我要請教你的就是，你們回去研議一下，包括里長現在有欠缺什麼、有需要什麼補貼嗎？因為有人說喊得沒意沒思，喊得沒有節制，不過，這不是在喊心酸的，這是要合情合理啦！該給人家的賞金一定要給人家，所以本席在這裡要跟政次說，該如何去補貼這些問題的時候，我們要研議一下，要把它做好，因為真的不簡單，已經這麼多年了，現在才提出來，以上。"],["吳次長容輝：好，這個我們會來處理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的發言。下一位是我們許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-17","speakers":["吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","王美惠","盧縣一","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","高金素梅","許宇甄","李柏毅","呂玉玲","王育敏","李彥秀","徐巧芯","蔡易餘","劉建國","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","羅智強","黃珊珊","邱鎮軍","邱志偉","張嘉郡","黃仁","范雲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村\n里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例部分條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅\n智強等 25 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；六、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員呂玉玲等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；九、審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「地\n方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十、審查委員\n李柏毅等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十一、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例增\n訂第七條之一條文草案」案；十二、審查委員徐巧芯等28人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里\n長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員莊瑞雄等18人擬具「地方民意\n代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員高金素梅\n等29人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、審查委員林思銘等26人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助\n費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；十七、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支\n給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員蔡\n易餘等 19 人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」\n案；十九、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六\n條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務\n補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員黃秀芳等19人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員鍾佳濱等27\n人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十\n三、審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第五條、第\n六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具\n「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十五、審查\n委員陳素月等21人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、審查委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助\n條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案；二十七、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十八、審查委員李彥秀等20人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修\n正草案」案；三十、審查委員黃建賓等17人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補\n助條例第六條及第七條條文修正草案」案；三十一、審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「地方民意代表\n費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十二、審查委員高金素梅等\n22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第八條條文修正草案」案；三十\n三、審查委員鄭正鈐等18人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條\n文修正草案」案；三十四、審查委員陳素月等22人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補\n助費補助條例第五條附表修正草案」案；三十五、審查委員陳培瑜等21人擬具「地方民意代表費\n用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修正草案」案；三十六、審查委員王美惠等21人\n擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第七條條文修正草案」案；三十七、\n審查委員王育敏等16人擬具「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例第六條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.44846875,"end":1.9715937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.76471875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.31721875,"end":5.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.966593750000001,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.177218750000002,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.46346875,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.914718750000002,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.17159375,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.76159375,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.94659375,"end":29.680343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":32.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":43.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.33221875,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.49659375,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.08284375,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.35659375,"end":54.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.55409375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.08971875,"end":58.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.24534375,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.439093750000005,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.02096875000001,"end":68.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":69.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.62346875,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.17596875000001,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.11659375,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.36909375,"end":79.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.97159375000001,"end":84.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.64221875000001,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.31284375,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.75534375000001,"end":103.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.81221875,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.28346875000001,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.81034375,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.21909375000001,"end":125.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.03659375000001,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.46221875,"end":130.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.15409375000002,"end":130.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.35659375,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.71471875,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.01346875000002,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.99221875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.64596875,"end":143.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.65409375000002,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.98284375,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.75909375,"end":147.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.17659375000002,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.30284375000002,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.45284375,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.29346875000002,"end":187.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.42221875,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.09346875000003,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.93971875000003,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.84471875000003,"end":253.071593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今天我們就是要討論 立法院春節的慰問金及"},{"start":22.813,"end":25.556,"text":"議員．地方的議員．助理費及事務費。在這兩天我覺得長久以來．剛才可能有我們的董事聽到不對．我不是說今天的拜祭或是人來早上買．我的意思是說我們的內政局已經有拜了．"},{"start":44.554,"end":48.798,"text":"我們要修正草案．所以大家可以在內政委員會來討論．不用在上禮拜五提出來立託．"},{"start":62.812,"end":68.956,"text":"我相信他們自己的委員也有很多意見所以今天我們也感謝我們的教委可以來拜日這個議程裡面所以剛才我說的就是說"},{"start":81.766,"end":82.146,"text":"委員長王美惠"},{"start":104.088,"end":108.15,"text":"本議席就要聽大家所討論的這個事務費．第181年來討論後．第182年有45,000提供及5萬．在這個過程當中本縣也有說到說．我們是不是要依春節過年的獎金來看風．"},{"start":131.201,"end":137.422,"text":"但是在這個過程當中因為我們沒有得到共識所以在這位置這屆福家寨本市還繼續發表有條所以可以來參與這個問題在這個過程當中市長本市要來問你們你們當中有什麼困難還是可以怎麼處理的麻煩你再說明一下"},{"start":162.528,"end":182.066,"text":"報告委員,我想委員關心我們地方民意代表跟村里長的相關的這個補助我想這個特別感謝那這個議題啊這個補助條例的修法我想草委都有共識了那其實這個議題早在很早就已經談了也不是說今天才在談"},{"start":183.336,"end":202.841,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":203.154,"end":203.194,"text":"委員長的"},{"start":218.55,"end":243.967,"text":"這一個事務補助費的部分那我們這一次也考量到這個村里長也很辛苦那再加上說現在各行各業其實也都有所謂的年終獎金或者是慰問金這一個這個發給了那只有我們村里長沒有那這一次我們就把它放進去就用事務補助費的五萬塊做基準那把它調也跟一般一樣加發這個1.5個月的村賊慰問金"},{"start":246.889,"end":258.493,"text":"好 謝謝感謝我們政治的說明在這本席還要跟你談到的就是說我們本身做議員做立委怎麼辛苦都沒關係因為覺得我們這是發起做立委思維但畢竟我們議員的助理我們說實在的也不能讓他們操持也不能讓他們覺得說做到沒命沒力"},{"start":275.262,"end":285.087,"text":"所以這種的都違法的,所以是如何提高他們的助理的費用及人數,因為這裏面,因為有很多我們的助理,都是長久以來"},{"start":292.97,"end":295.232,"text":"我們要服務也好,要做什麼也好,有時候就要輪,啊你會不會來,你會補過來,會補你可以上班學完,所以我們也怕他說做了超時不應該,所以在這個規定當中,這個座禮會提供像第一我的代理詞,"},{"start":317.486,"end":320.808,"text":"本來是8萬塊,提高到14萬,我們的屋頭24萬,提高到30萬,我們的事務費,我們的屋頭是有4萬提高到6萬,2萬提高到4萬"},{"start":337.113,"end":345.34,"text":"像我跟他一起是九千拿到兩萬塊在這個過程當中我感覺是不足的你認為這個事務費要如何調整可以符合現在的時機及環境及物價的契機來"},{"start":360.828,"end":367.602,"text":"委員這我跟您報告這一次當然修法主要也是考量到這個要建前一年助理的聘用制度"},{"start":368.564,"end":391.042,"text":"當然助理都很辛苦那跟這個我們村里長也都是一樣的所以我們這一次才會做這樣的一個修法那另外一個就是我們要保障助理的這個勞動權益那所以我們做了一些剛剛委員特別提到了這個提高這些加班費或者是他的這個助理費"},{"start":392.32,"end":407.674,"text":"我們提的驗版這個額度大概我們都有參酌一些因素一些面向來做調整那當然委員所提的說我們驗版的這個調整的幅度到底是不是這個最恰當的當然這個大家可以來討論"},{"start":409.575,"end":413.057,"text":"這樣就是重點就是說我們今天派這個委員會來討論議員的助理費及里長的薪金的費用是非常重要所以大家都坐下來談他現在的環境下跌多少"},{"start":431.386,"end":437.45,"text":"他釋合當然是有的是一定會做不夠 要不然做不夠會當中我們要怎麼調和我現在的環境因為本事就是覺得 問題我相信今天所講的我們的董事、董事 都是來自"},{"start":454.799,"end":457.641,"text":"提供提供提供提供提供提供提供提供"},{"start":479.477,"end":481.458,"text":"在這裏面我要請教的就是你回到研議室：包括你剛才現在有選過的事有需要什麼的補貼嗎?"},{"start":494.192,"end":502.173,"text":"因爲有人說我到沒意思沒數,我到沒錢沒錢,但這不是會發心聲的,這是要合情合理的,給人家的薪金一定要給人家,所以我直接跟政治說,該如何去補貼這些問題的時候,我們要研議一下,要做得好,不簡單,已經這麼多年了,現在拿出來,"},{"start":522.597,"end":523.039,"text":"王美惠委員"}]}},{"id":"152331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf712a57251873e4e1b66811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac78ec77dcdb8ffec4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:06:34 - 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故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任\n總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.77284375,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.684093750000001,"end":5.7009687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.476593750000003,"end":84.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.23284375,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.36221875000001,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.93034375,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.96346875,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.03409375000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.24909375,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.66659375,"end":137.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.84909375,"end":191.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.42284375,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.94159375,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.29971875,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.12221875,"end":207.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.42034375,"end":217.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.09409375,"end":231.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.72471875000002,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.65284375000005,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.89721875000004,"end":262.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.65221875000003,"end":266.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.16659375,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.72284375000004,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.25846875,"end":277.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.87784375,"end":292.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.72784375000003,"end":342.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.36971875,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.40784375000004,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.29784375,"end":382.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.17784375,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.11846875000003,"end":411.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.13534375,"end":445.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.30721875,"end":498.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.85596875000005,"end":514.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.35971875,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.5615937499999,"end":522.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.52721875,"end":552.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.1765937499999,"end":556.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.2140937500001,"end":559.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.94346875,"end":568.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.25846875,"end":571.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.34659375,"end":580.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.69159375,"end":581.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.8472187500001,"end":585.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.10409375,"end":592.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.29284375,"end":602.13096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.203,"end":3.403,"text":"有請院長"},{"start":9.64,"end":32.153,"text":"好 院長好 院長今天的專題主題報告叫做回首百年放眼未來故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討明年故宮要100年了理論上我覺得今天這個專報內容應該要涵蓋非常多面性甚至可以做一個歷史的總回顧但我們可以看到整個專題的報告只有15頁"},{"start":34.514,"end":63.061,"text":"目錄卻只有前言故宮回應當代的社會責任具體的成果未來展望本席就簡單用幾句話來統整一下前言就是故宮官網裡面的成立嚴格及定位故宮回應當代社會責任具體的成果內容林立卻很鬆散反而讓人家覺得更找不到故宮的定位未來展望的內容則是非常短有提到希望用文化軟實力立足全球"},{"start":64.081,"end":92.343,"text":"讓國立故宮博物院成為世界的故宮但具體要怎麼做沒有規劃沒有頭緒這份報告很像小學生前一天臨時要寫功課忘記寫了當天急救章向老師交代一下不知道是不是因為520要準備了我們現在不想認真去規劃520之後的事情總而言之整份報告我看起來空洞沒有什麼實質的內容有待改進那我也想跟你請問幾個問題"},{"start":94.904,"end":108.508,"text":"2022年有這樣子的一個新聞報導放在故宮就是國寶嗎?專家證實翠玉白菜不是那我想請問一下到底現在翠玉白菜是不是?什麼國寶?"},{"start":117.785,"end":136.214,"text":"人氣國寶啦齁在官網上我記得他的官網的這一個行業啊有稍微寫到他是國寶惠萃或者是相關的國寶典藏在這個網頁上所以在民眾的觀感就覺得這是國家的寶貝國寶"},{"start":137.955,"end":163.264,"text":"那當然你們把它列為文物啦那這又讓我們再看到這個2022年相關的一個報導裡面都有提到有所謂的膠黃釉綠彩龍紋碗被打破那當時的故宮院長說這個是文物不是國寶那當然文物跟國寶有所謂的這個差別"},{"start":164.244,"end":191.097,"text":"那我們但是對於國人的認定上來說放在故宮都是非常非常重要的東西那今天又看到我們有這樣子的一個新聞我想今天你應該不只一位了啦相信很多的立委都非常關切這件事情我都覺得非常非常的讓我感嘆啦覺得說在這樣子的一個畫面真的是讓所有的國人都為之震撼"},{"start":192.538,"end":207.628,"text":"您可以想像國人現在的觀感嗎?院長一再強調這是一個嚴重的錯誤不能因為一小小的疏忽的話然後就是把故宮的形象毀一旦"},{"start":208.479,"end":236.516,"text":"我想現在不僅僅我們要面對的是相關人等的一個處分而已我們要的是未來不要再發生我們要的是未來不允許我們更希望每一個人慎重的面對每一個故宮裡面的文物甚至是國寶我想星期一本期在地方有行程我們有重大的考察"},{"start":237.296,"end":239.217,"text":"我先想請問一下我的選區有國立美術館您知道嗎"},{"start":264.166,"end":291.053,"text":"我原來就是國美館的館長是是是有沒有機會借給國美館展覽一下南美館可以國美館可不可以依照現在的故宮出遊區的辦法基本上是可以是可以的齁也希望您如果台中有需求能夠就近照顧台中但是現在我們看到的這個新聞事件典藏人員竟然直接在翠玉白菜旁邊簽名我想這個"},{"start":294.474,"end":321.322,"text":"氣務處長吳處長有說這個清點的程序照標準作業流程我想這些都是說辭今天我也不再探究這個說辭的內容我想我還是回到剛剛那句話故宮點手的是中華民國的文物資產尤其歷史文化傳承應該受到最嚴格最嚴格的一個監督我們看到的現在這樣的畫面我們希望未來"},{"start":322.222,"end":342.211,"text":"您要大刀闊斧的將這些SOP將這些未來的流程都把它定定的就猶如我們現在應該要克尊職守的一個憲法一樣的重要把這些規則流程把它當成是要進入"},{"start":343.444,"end":370.289,"text":"我們故宮每一個人員應該要克尊的一個憲法來保護著我們所有所有的文物還有國寶兩三年前故宮打破了三項文物前院長蘇貞昌說要把過去落伍的保存文化檢查方法好好改革才對得起整個文物的保存不是要改革嗎改革到哪裡了"},{"start":371.365,"end":391.682,"text":"故宮把文物送出去的策展已經不是第一次五月一號才要定SOP我想這件事情還是民眾在這個粉絲專頁爆料才可以知道這件事我們民眾真的對於這件事情都非常非常的膽戰心驚都非常愛惜國寶"},{"start":393.303,"end":411.05,"text":"今天您會站在這邊召委會排這樣子的一個專題我想也有相對應的一個希望重視我們回首所有故宮的復出跟所有的歷史到現在我們看到這個事件的發生我想整個"},{"start":412.29,"end":427.475,"text":"故宮不僅僅是在未來的展望我們更希望故宮應該要好好想想到底發生了什麼問題我們不要只是怪基層員工我們也應該要好好想想到底這些有沒有好好監督"},{"start":428.155,"end":445.132,"text":"流程改革這些長官到底誰應該要負責任難道這一次只是單純的典藏人員處罰完還是處長處罰完我想這部分都應該不是我們希望看到所有所有的面向"},{"start":446.38,"end":465.698,"text":"不是看到處罰就好啦我們要看到的是未來不會再發生未來能夠讓大家真的膽戰心驚去把這些文物出展的一個過程把它給完成好不好我們希望故宮從以前到現在已經歷清了三次的大清典民國40到43年"},{"start":467.219,"end":479.393,"text":"民國七十八到八十年民國九十七到一百零一年現在雖然之前都有二十年一次的全院大新年但鑒於故宮近年來對文物的頻頻不小心我認為是應該籌組一個小組盤點所有文物的狀況來做一個大"},{"start":486.781,"end":514.586,"text":"清點你們的一個SOP還有這些狀況好好的統整之後我們來做一個專案小組來如何規劃當然時間現在也非常的不足我要對你做一些相關的其他詢問但是我要講的是人力不足也是故宮現在我們看到的一個問題我們現在看到故宮僅有16人肩負維護70萬件的一個文物責任其實真的很不容易"},{"start":515.475,"end":522.464,"text":"我們這一點也要幫故宮講話但我們更希望人力不足到底現在該怎麼辦欲缺不補"},{"start":523.598,"end":548.326,"text":"根據檢察院的調查故宮檢任以上的部分職缺出缺兩年至四年後才可以進行人員的增補代表外界的餘力並非空虛來風我們希望原額授勸於人事行政總署故宮身為世界級的博物館擔負國內博物館的領頭羊之使命如何持續挹注優秀的人才確保國際的博物館地位與水準我希望這一週內能夠檢討報告給本辦公室院長可以嗎"},{"start":553.546,"end":570.498,"text":"可以跟委員報告一下故宮會記起教訓以後不會再換另外的話那個標準作業流程本來就有只是散落在過處所以我5月1號是把它整合到一個通則上面未來我們會出版一個手冊所以這個部分的話我們會積極來處理"},{"start":572.346,"end":573.507,"text":"我想博物館同仁的專業素養信念的話要再加強"},{"start":592.409,"end":601.079,"text":"好我想這個事件我們不需要再看到了好不好尤其對我們來說對不起每一件文物都是中華民國的國寶謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}