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1 2 3"},{"start":161.516,"end":161.536,"text":"啊喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂"},{"start":2094.234,"end":2119.253,"text":"各黨團的代表副總召、柯總召、黃總召還有各位我們列席的官員還有各位黨團的工作夥伴各位新聞界的好朋友那我們今天的草野協商就正式開始等一下還有幾位黨團幹部不同政黨的幹部都在路上我們就邊開會邊等今天草野協商之前"},{"start":2120.919,"end":2149.586,"text":"今天草野協商之前我特別拜託所有的黨團幹部我們有幾項宣告要請大家我們一起來盡量來遵守我語重心長連續幾次草野協商大家都曉得氣氛不是很融洽事實上我想低一點時間"},{"start":2151.482,"end":2176.55,"text":"我們今後所有草與協商發言我們會計時一次發言五分鐘為限五分鐘那發言完畢之後其他黨團幹部要發言的時候主席會裁決請五分鐘到時間就自動停止那如果要再發言的話可以徵求二次發言這是第一個發言時間請問各位黨團幹部同意不同意"},{"start":2178.584,"end":2198.674,"text":"沒有我一個一個來,因為好多,可以嗎?有一些五分鐘,好不好?沒有沒有,我們先暫時這樣子,我們試試看。因為這麼久來齁,草委協商沒有發言時間限制以及次數限制,議事規則也說很清楚,假如沒有辦法說明清楚,因為只有發言一次。"},{"start":2199.708,"end":2222.313,"text":"委員會登記其他的草原協商以及在討論法案的時候都沒有時間和次數限制所以主席要斟酌一下這是要大家如果把話講清楚不是說這麼久來草原協商你以為不是今天才開始我認為主席這個人要斟酌一下謝謝"},{"start":2226.533,"end":2253.726,"text":"柯總召的提醒,但是我想對發言的時間、發言的內容,我們依序一點一滴,我的觀察、我的憂心,還有大家愚情的反應,我們試試看,我們第一次發言五分鐘,時間到了暫停,等其他人發言,二次發言再舉手,我覺得用這種方式的話,可能可以讓會議進行的效率會提高一點,而且也讓劍拔弩張的氛圍可以降低一點,好不好,這我們試試看。委員長"},{"start":2256.48,"end":2259.882,"text":"你這才是五分鐘,你是否有限制?"},{"start":2270.49,"end":2285.321,"text":"目前暫時還沒有,我們先試辦,我們試試看嘛,將來修正再修正嘛沒有試試先試,大家一共說話,到底要講清楚就好我們先試試看嘛,很多事情要重新建立嘛,否則大家因為要試試看,試試看,我講一下"},{"start":2288.183,"end":2313.699,"text":"因為要試試看,所以大家到底要講清楚嘛。這個五分鐘以後,來馬上輪下去,然後沒有次數限制,這個我們試試看是倒是可以。因為過去也沒有院長會提出這個。那現在的議事處,他給你弄很多遊戲規則。不知道上禮拜我們在草原協商幾個結議案,那根本協商完畢以後,沒有人簽字。"},{"start":2316.221,"end":2317.943,"text":"關於協商MV一定是院長入門協商決議"},{"start":2336.863,"end":2360.522,"text":"委員長簽了,然後交給大家簽,要由不簽跑掉,再來去拜託,再來協商。所以這個是一個民主程序的進行。我們不希望就是說,一是非常了解遊戲規則,中央民主黨也非常了解遊戲規則,總會跟我們講清楚,然後一協商完畢又跑掉。過去中央協商是無效的。"},{"start":2362.263,"end":2387.311,"text":"常委已經寫很清楚,一定要簽名,沒有簽那就在協商有什麼問題去解決,大部分都能夠解決,其實啊,都能夠解決的。所以這個與議事有何齊,尤其我們會局開始大家對立法院有所憂心嘛。那不管怎麼樣,我在這裡一直講說,我們碰到、面對很多法輪功委是違法一線的法案。"},{"start":2388.992,"end":2408.114,"text":"這張當來當然大家都會攻防嘛,那我看到在這個說法這個委員會這個房間裡面在攻防的時候,國民黨主席就是領要過去,那法民黨主席要三回五次嘛我建議我們就不要再遇到我先把這個講完就是說我們今天很重要就是"},{"start":2409.255,"end":2435.01,"text":"不管怎麼樣,立法院要進行民主程序,這很重要。沒有程序正義,就沒有實際正義。假如立法院這樣,像涉議中有些遊戲規則,把植物鹼化採取。立法院,那就是還是國會都是暴力。這個是民主會崩盤的。好不好?好,謝謝柯總周三爺的提醒。我們第一個如果各位黨團沒有意見的話,我們就試試看。請副總統。"},{"start":2438.526,"end":2459.673,"text":"新的民意在這個會期我們正式展開我想國務院長所帶領的立法院是要讓國人耳目一新的一個國會過去漫無目的如同菜市場一般的雜亂我想不再是現在人民的期待"},{"start":2460.959,"end":2488.586,"text":"所以我今天真的是非常高興聽到韓院長講我們未來這個要制度化的建立因為最主要我們不斷聽到有一種聲音當在這個會議室要散會動議的時候因為太多的人身攻擊要散會動議的時候所以一直在強調委員會中心主義既然是委員會中心主義"},{"start":2490.216,"end":2519.999,"text":"一個民主國家那既然在委員會已經討論過了那已經到了院長召集協商的這個區塊裡面我們制度真的要建立我們制度真的要建立我們不能啊損耗了這個什麼24小時48小時今天中華民國不是只有一個案子兩個案子三個案子要來協商一個制度的建立是真的是不容易我覺得院長要大破大立啦"},{"start":2521.377,"end":2549.909,"text":"因為在委員會的發言本來就有主席才是一次發言幾分鐘就這樣大家就一次發言巡打等等接著下來到院會的時候不管是在質詢這個專案報告還是院會的部會首長院長的質詢都有15分鐘或30分鐘的限制但一個會期就那一次"},{"start":2551.624,"end":2578.774,"text":"所以今天如果說在這裡其實我覺得今天跟我所思考的距離已經有一點差距了因為這個五分鐘我想這個是院長比較宏觀啦五分鐘 好得再發言一次我想很多其實除非表達能力有問題不然五分鐘之內已經講得很清楚了大家也都 人民都聽得懂了"},{"start":2579.654,"end":2580.014,"text":"我需要先舉手 請發言"},{"start":2604.413,"end":2623.203,"text":"謝謝主席,我也認為如果能夠在協商的過程透過比較好的意識管控也就是大家彼此能夠維持對話的和諧,我當然樂見但是新的民意不能凌駕了國會的民主運作的原則委員會有委員會的規則"},{"start":2628.013,"end":2647.298,"text":"協商有協商大家對話的方式新的民意更不能凌駕憲法所以不是嚴閉稱新民意就可以把過去立法院數十年來運作的慣例把它變成惡例所以我是認為如果要約束大家"},{"start":2649.141,"end":2665.743,"text":"一次發言幾分鐘這個我可以大家就盡量來約束但是次數的部分我認為是不宜限制的剛剛副昆齊總召說到委員會中心主義太好了我終於從副總召的嘴巴裡聽到委員會中心主義七個字"},{"start":2666.784,"end":2687.87,"text":"但這七個字不是拿來嘴巴空講,是要實踐的。剛副總召說,因為有了委員會中心主義,所以在委員會充分討論,在協商就不用再多花時間,所以要限制協商發言的次數跟時間,這我萬萬不能同意啊。"},{"start":2688.891,"end":2704.532,"text":"如果委員會中心主義有被履行那我大可接受這也是過去的好經驗委員會充分討論只留下部分爭議未解的部分送到協商來解決這個是如常運作的立法院"},{"start":2705.473,"end":2729.354,"text":"但是現在的立法院委員會中心主義七個字蕩然無存我想請副總召我如果有說錯副總召可以指正我今天要協商的三個議案委員會中心主義在哪裡花東快速公路建設特別條例耗資兩千五百億交通委員會只省了三分鐘"},{"start":2731.104,"end":2755.751,"text":"第二個案子:「國道東延花東花蓮建設特別條例草案。」特別預算八千億交通委員會只花了一分五十秒第三個案:「環島高鐵恩兆。」現在還算不出來到底要花多少名值名高交通委員會只花六分鐘換言之今天要審的三大法案"},{"start":2757.27,"end":2783.502,"text":"委員會分三天開會total的討論時間只有10分50秒這是什麼委員會中心主義所以今天在協商我們是在補進度我必須很遺憾的說我們是在彌補委員會中心主義被踐踏的那幾次會議我們只好不得已到協商再來談那是因為委員會中心主義被國民黨"},{"start":2785.641,"end":2805.892,"text":"壓政之下予以踐踏所以回到主題就是照理講我舉個例子院長昨天內政委員會通過了地方民代知己條例我們提升了村里長的年終慰問金我們提升了地方民代的助理二十四年未調的薪水這是一個好的朝野就努力在內政委員會"},{"start":2808.627,"end":2834.664,"text":"針對八個條文討論了十個小時那是委員會中心主義八個條文討論了十個小時所以想試問今天三個法案有幾個條文我們是不是真的能夠來堅守國會議員監督的職責所以如果以這個標準一個委員在協商三長的代表一次五分鐘一個人發言五十次都不嫌多啊"},{"start":2835.782,"end":2862.695,"text":"因為委員會中心主義被踐踏三大議案交通委員會只花了十分五十秒所以我必須在這裡要積極地爭取這是早起剛、早不來我們要開幾條的民脂民膏難道不值得好好討論嗎所以如果以過去的經驗昨天內政委員會八個條文討論十個小時那今天每一個委員可以發言五十次都不嫌多謝謝"},{"start":2865.137,"end":2889.472,"text":"接下來我們請按次序,我們請洪某凱署議長請謝謝院長,我想院長如果說我們沒有做一個正式的決議的話今天光再講下去也講不完今天民進黨的代表到目前為止我聽不出來說是不是真的想要針對這三個條例來去做好好討論"},{"start":2890.613,"end":2919.753,"text":"請容許我特別來說明 這三個條例不管是在經濟委員會 不管是在交通委員會都是有正式的詢答所有的委員登記並且跟我們相關部會的官員做過詢答之後來進入實質的主條討論但是沒有辦法在委員會裡面有確定一個版本所以說才會送來朝野協商但是在這個過程當中絕對不是民進黨代表剛剛所講的說幾分鐘五分鐘三分鐘"},{"start":2921.013,"end":2930.139,"text":"不要自我閹割了委員會的審查功能之後來這邊草野協商亂講我想這是第一個最大的謬論再者"},{"start":2932.421,"end":2956.316,"text":"今天朝野協商的重點在哪裡?朝野協商的重點是在於是說我們會議室裡面的人互相講話可是我覺得發覺說現在民進黨的代表把這裡當成是直播舞台、演講舞台從頭到尾眼神也沒有交集過這感覺就是一直在找攝影機我覺得岐起以為不可如果說真的要這樣子做的話我倒建議是"},{"start":2958.297,"end":2981.672,"text":"也不用五分鐘我倒建議是一個人發言三分鐘甚至兩分鐘大家把我們自己想要講的話概念講出來如果說一件事情擔任到立法委員了你想表達的訴求你都沒有辦法在三分鐘兩分鐘裡面完成的話那說實在的話你的語言表達要重練立法委員有辦法的就是把"},{"start":2984.101,"end":3003.658,"text":"時間給佔滿那既然如此如果說照我們剛剛民進黨的委員的一個發言來講的話那真的我建議 誠摯的建議為了我們的意識效率不是要表演給外界看我們真的希望是坐在這邊大家可以互相尊重彼此的時間我們把這個具體的精神給講出來那最後"},{"start":3005.336,"end":3033.724,"text":"很認真的部分是委員會審查完都有各自的版本既然今天要討論條例的話我也想請教行政部門有沒有相對應的版本民進黨團有沒有相對應的版本如果都沒有那我覺得今天來你們只是就是一昧的否定那這樣根本不叫實質的討論如果你們沒有版本來比如說我今天討論第一條你們沒有版本那我們請教要討論什麼東西"},{"start":3035.54,"end":3039.331,"text":"你只有yes or no嘛那這樣就根本不是想要實質的做討論啊"},{"start":3041.468,"end":3069.279,"text":"如果說今天進入到這個協商會場都沒有任何版本的時候那我合理的懷疑今天根本不是帶著誠意來討論根本不是有心為地方建設為台灣建設來發展來討論那這樣的協商還有意義嗎所以我覺得主席我們是不是經過黨團三個黨團都有發言過之後我們就直接進入按照您剛剛的遊戲規則我們就裁定時間那我們就直接進行今天的第一案討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":3072.87,"end":3094.542,"text":"第一次舉手的莊瑞雄主席還有在場的先進各位列席的官員我剛聽了洪文凱委員這一席話我是非常的驚嚇第一個這個不是你國民黨提什麼版本我們就要提對岸對於地方的一個建設可以用個案來推動那你也必須要確實去做一個實質的一個討論"},{"start":3102.599,"end":3120.712,"text":"我舉個例子高鐵南延到屏東我第八屆進來我在問毛自國的時候他跟我說要花那麼多錢啊可行性評估啊這第一個第二就跟院長有關啦院長在幹高雄市長的時候高鐵到屏東什麼方案都可以啊這院長你選總統的時候想法就不一樣囉高鐵南延到屏東啊那是盲腸啊你要記得吧"},{"start":3132.979,"end":3159.937,"text":"這當初你的講法侯友宇在選總統 我也沒有看到你有這樣的一個方案阿花蓮縣政府國會府規劃裡面 我也沒有看到你們有提出阿依我高鐵南延到屏東喔 到現在你去省買得好 17年了不是說到台東不可以 也不是說到花蓮不可以你們這是瞞天要價嘛"},{"start":3160.868,"end":3176.091,"text":"要多少錢?你家的事,我人多數,提了就算,是這樣子嗎?我看侯孟楷委員我連問你說可行性評估跟中規要幾年,我看你連搞都搞不清楚咧。高鐵要攔延到屏東啊,中規啊,可行性評估跟中規啊,一個中規綜合規劃最快要八年了。"},{"start":3189.653,"end":3189.893,"text":"開要開多久你知道嗎?"},{"start":3189.893,"end":3192.856,"text":"最快要九年啊!我為什麼說要用個案推動?我們是主張高鐵南延到屏東以後,現在要再多久你知道嗎?要再十幾年才會好喔!那你現在說要拉到台東,我問你,政府跟我們承諾了到潮州的,院長,連這個另外一個計畫都還沒推動喔!"},{"start":3214.983,"end":3226.888,"text":"那你說 到了潮州 好啦 就算一個案對我們FABR很好的時候 我財政資源都很充足 我給你到潮州啦到潮州以後 你又要推動一個 我說 欸 要到台東 要到花蓮那你要找路廊啊 你是要穿越太湖山啊 或是說 你說 照我原來這樣設為平和公路那裡去 我也 我們平南的人認為說 可能要到恆春啊 觀光地區國家公園啊"},{"start":3243.356,"end":3260.169,"text":"可是你請專家來看的話他又跟你說你就浪費錢啊我直接從泰晤山把你穿過去比較快啊一個縣市哪有三個站的搞不好不同意見都出來了光高鐵南延到屏東我們這一些主張屏東要有高鐵路我們飽受攻擊啊所以我剛舉那院長你的反覆裡面不是在講說你亂講話是在講說你當不同位置的時候你有不同的考量會有不同的考量"},{"start":3272.864,"end":3291.869,"text":"所以我的意思就是說建設地方這是對的大家也都樂見的沒有人會反對但問題是說我反對的是用特別條例的方式要蓋幾樓你們說十樓會好騙幾樓來到我屏東不用經過三樓我就要蓋十七年民進黨在執政耶然後你們提出的條例說十年把它完成都在變魔術了然後那為什麼不是用個案去推動"},{"start":3302.295,"end":3304.616,"text":"因為人多,所以我要用條例把它框住。國家建設是這樣子嗎?國家建設是這樣子嗎?你憑憑理啊,是這樣子嗎?我談的全部都是實質啊。我談的全部都是實質啊。縮短城鄉差距,我也樂於見到啊。我希望看到屏東,我們跟這個整個北部均衡發展。我也樂於看到東部跟西部同樣均衡的一個發展啊。可是建設是用這樣子的嗎?"},{"start":3328.342,"end":3335.048,"text":"如果是這樣子的話為什麼過去國民黨裡面任何選總統的人包括韓院長我也沒看過啊這個叫做個人即興之作管理建設五十年你就給我通過就好啦幾十年有沒有活那麼久跟我無關呢可以這樣子搞嗎"},{"start":3346.604,"end":3372.887,"text":"莊委員你講到現在對於五分鐘發言第一次發言同意還是不同意用條例的方式我反對啦個案去推動尊重科學專業評估我就贊成啦我跟莊委員還有各位黨團幹部再解釋一遍齁我們現在要針對幾次草以協商下來我們累積了一些寶貴的經驗在這裡我想跟大家沒有啦我意思是說我對你講的超過五分鐘就是我希望可以比較久啦這樣很簡單嘛"},{"start":3374.788,"end":3401.58,"text":"我們一開始就徵求,我們先建立一些典範出來第一個就是發言的時間接下來發言的參加對象第三個是發言的內容還有第四個,發言的情緒我嘗試著一點一滴把它建立起來我知道我知道,不急等一下你可以發,就十字部分發言可是你知道您還要發"},{"start":3403.141,"end":3424.579,"text":"阿謙我當然要發你是在做一個這樣說五分鐘的嘗試那現在我要告訴你說,你要想清楚,院長你今天是在整個國會、國民黨這樣在委員會裡面在沒收然後國會改了法案,全部全部要出委會,在委會沒有進過主條"},{"start":3426.021,"end":3454.559,"text":"然後他在草案選項的時候過水馬上去表決,也不能讓你講話這國會是死亡的你現在變成你一個很重要關鍵的位置他上次夫人旗和黃國昌要買莫生你的協調權都一個月到就要表決這個你看看,連你的職權都被沒收還是我們幫你捍衛的你現在主要的地位要像什麼?"},{"start":3456.524,"end":3479.244,"text":"師傅講 之前說得很清楚嘛 其實要一嘛本來過去是協商是四個月 後來馬英九執政改一個月然後他是要定期表決 不是馬上表決所以過去整個民主活動實踐大家都很清楚不管黃國昌或胡文綺都要在這個地方 胡文綺只會那種奇異的笑聲 黃孟海"},{"start":3482.367,"end":3503.175,"text":"你稍微人工位 要交給你誰在找 誰要找 找什麼攝影機站在哪裡我根本不知道攝影機站在哪裡 什麼直播那個是 樓志強在幹的事情啊所以我們沒有版本因為這個版本 我們就不接受他跟你拿什麼版本第一個 你要從現場的程度去看待嘛這是我們違憲"},{"start":3506.544,"end":3524.529,"text":"113篇內全是誰的,是行政責任的前例嘛,修法規定很清楚,我拜託我只要再看一下他要把113篇內一號行政議員通過以後,送到立法院給我們審議然後我們是有監督啊,主被動是要看清楚我現在給你講齁"},{"start":3527.406,"end":3544.082,"text":"因為時間 我跟你講 我跟店長告訴你說時間為什麼這五分鐘會有困擾 我就要時間給你看看嘛 是不是這樣謝謝柯總裁 等一下 我要讓你先發言好不好不是 我要跟你講 你是一個很重要的角色 因為你 你是三二法案 你是提案的人"},{"start":3545.356,"end":3571.549,"text":"立法院組織的規定很清楚,議員長必須一直中立啊。你是提案你要走草野鄉,你像這個所有角色上面,你要更中立,你能一直來,欸,喊這個五分鐘,你歡迎喔,過去在草野鄉,大家沒有限時間。我曾經在委員會一條條講一天你再講,這是民主的實現嘛,我們希望說,好不容易建立了一個民主,"},{"start":3573.029,"end":3596.522,"text":"實現起來,到這個時候,問題就是他所謂的新民意,因為新民意說,誒,你講國民黨太多,講三間、兩間都可以,這是什麼東西啊?這是民意啊?委員中心主義,你有沒有委員中心主義?委員中心主義沒有吧?上禮拜做什麼事情呢?連把執理長那個,執理條例,抽出政府圖,連把電話抽出政府圖,連把連"},{"start":3599.684,"end":3618.166,"text":"韓議長"},{"start":3618.725,"end":3628.495,"text":"這國家 這憲政制度 要不然我死你現在是有一個很關鍵的位置我很期盼你喔但是不是說你現在把他當成雙方人"},{"start":3631.323,"end":3658.796,"text":"沒有院長敢提出這種問題周恩來 你可以給起一個這種建議因為你規定在什麼地方 一個發言委員中在法案討論何其複雜你現在在跟這個談 談起來複雜未來 包括很多法案啦很多法案都是複雜的 一條一條的 全部要對抗我不相信啦你說 你們每一個法案都懂所以今天要談的就是說 很多要跟周恩來談 曾經"},{"start":3660.422,"end":3666.769,"text":"委員長的時候曾經一個法案寫成二十四後來台灣弄好 因為新華共和國說私下"},{"start":3669.874,"end":3697.484,"text":"蘇萊恩跟法務部至少在我們辦公室協商十次以上然後在草原鄉所以我們所定義的另一個法都是對人民鄉有關係黃汪昌在這個地方他也曾經實踐過因為前瞻他們在委員會的時候國民黨抵抗他讓他沒有辦法發言到草原鄉的時候院長當初蘇縣縣長還薄一個鐘頭給他在各部的找來"},{"start":3698.72,"end":3721.357,"text":"那載一名載一媽,我們兩個也播兩個鐘頭,載一名載一媽,問到保為止,罵到保為止。但是呢,在我們執政的時候就是說,我們要至少民主程序要把它維持著,否則的話你國會多數,你沒有國會多數。你這樣搞法就是永遠不想執政嘛,你這樣搞法,這跟國際很奇怪。"},{"start":3724.773,"end":3744.32,"text":"要一文章就好 兩文章就好 王孟海 你現在講的邏輯都錯誤對於這個法案 我有不同多的看法 要跟各位提案者請教我應該請教韓院長 你是提案者啊我可以問請教 你這個在現在體制上 前立法院原則花東快速這樣是對嗎"},{"start":3747.04,"end":3771.181,"text":"環島高鐵路你這樣說是對嗎?這也是政府的權益啊!立法院只要審議的權益,立法院沒有拼列國家預算的權益啊!分析一個人可以提兩照,我不知道他這個10年完成,可信評估要多久?還要環評的,還要限10年完成,這個有沒有可能啊?"},{"start":3773.27,"end":3791.605,"text":"現在你是一個非常關鍵的角色,因為你同是提案人,我希望你能夠中立。合作法,這個法律,不然大法案解釋,391、264,大家自己看,520、103,都是一樣的。我們國家憲政體制是一個很清楚的。"},{"start":3792.967,"end":3802.764,"text":"行政做什麼事情是行政做在憲法上有三條到六十一條講行政的事情五十八條、五十九條黨議上他們偏偏要送來"},{"start":3804.178,"end":3815.025,"text":"所以主動權、被動權要很清楚你看這個協定的時候那不用這麼誇張嘛不然去找天龍橋隔壁林氏民房、桃竹苗、科學園區我們拿來算賬那屏東也可以那就是執政權啊執政政治在哪裡所以說說"},{"start":3833.442,"end":3853.664,"text":"我們可能說我們有沒有提版本啊?不可能沒有提版本,你這版本根本沒用的嘛。這先期討論再來講,還有立法院什麼時候要審查的時候,也有新的版本沒有委員提案版本嘛。所以各種樣態都有,所以也有民黨提案,我們也不提案。"},{"start":3854.985,"end":3877.896,"text":"雖然人少,民眾黨民眾黨少,它不一定每一個法案都提案啊。所以你不能看說,但是他們可以對每一個法案提出他們的看法。這是民主政治啊。所以今天我還幫忙推到韓院長。這是一個歷史觀念時刻,你的角色非常重要。我先提一個程序發言好不好。我現在先提一個程序發言。也就是說上面"},{"start":3879.754,"end":3891.018,"text":"國際草案協商坦白講草案協商有幾種我告訴各位一種就是黨團協商協商法案這樣這個就是法案這個法案初期的憲政都多廣這個法案初期整個憲政運作都廣"},{"start":3895.816,"end":3915.936,"text":"那我們要從這個法案 不談內容而已啊是整個法 你這個立法的東西對不對所以不管這個法案一種就是預算中央政府總預算還有國民事務預算然後會在這裡協商這個就是最主要立法院運作最終三十幾年來"},{"start":3918.098,"end":3936.82,"text":"海岸的民主化會一直往前走,這是很重要的原因。過去我們曾經30年,1986年到2016,我們30年在立法院表決舉辦次,曾經委員會不敢,因為委員會表決舉辦次,從來沒有贏過,但是我們還是一直往前走。"},{"start":3937.898,"end":3957.638,"text":"到我自己在立法院來1993我們一起進來的時候到2016有22年間民主政府黨從來沒有表決成功過但是我們還是讓民主往前走今天要講一個很重要的道理就是說我們現在台灣民主走到哪裡去是要不來不進步"},{"start":3959.239,"end":3983.94,"text":"不是說我是新免疫你今天只是國民黨一票你和黃國昌加起來兩個人有可能過半黃國昌到最後不定每一條我都聽你的是不是這樣你以為你這樣子等你們加起來轉動台灣可以任何委託亂政你們做什麼就要什麼不可能的事情你這個樣子就永遠不想執政要不然台灣的民主破壞掉"},{"start":3986.082,"end":4007.561,"text":"這很清楚嘛,我們每次在這裡講,然後你們要聽不聽的,什麼在找攝影機攝影機,我根本搞不清楚,我們到這個年紀,人生很急,我們要面對良心,尤其人要當自己,"},{"start":4008.422,"end":4023.615,"text":"因為好不容易我們兩個一會選來然後當會議的工具你們自己為了要面對你們選區選民怎麼看待你啊?不是這樣啊 像李樹民啊 阿翁總對啦阿翁總對 我跟你講你要面對你的選民啦"},{"start":4027.847,"end":4051.041,"text":"第一步 因為有些程序問題就是說 我來講一半因為我們有很多法案要寫章 議章要寫章 那都繁雜那走運算是都繁雜 營業基金會 營業基金都繁雜然後還有議案 像上禮拜我們表決奪內法 要抽出經貨圖 那可以這樣搞嗎"},{"start":4055.143,"end":4073.809,"text":"只要一種最簡單叫陳希希的學章 那個可以三個人其他在立法院我站這裡三十年 從來沒有宣布人數過你看 你試試想想 有一個好案 包括陳里長 那個茲吉小玉以為只有四十個人提案 結果只有你們三個人來"},{"start":4075.091,"end":4085.039,"text":"各位黨團幹部因為我們很多列席官員大家可能還不太清楚唸一下名字也是對官員稍微等一下我先介紹一下列席的重要官員第一位國家發展委員會副主委高副主委歡迎您"},{"start":4105.702,"end":4131.971,"text":"交通部王部長財政部推動出產司張副司長內政部地政司張世察環境部環境保護司蔡司長原住民委員會洪副處長行政院公共工程委員會胡副處長"},{"start":4134.181,"end":4155.259,"text":"行政院主計總處王專門委員歡迎您這是我們以上列席的官員現在我想再重申一遍剛才我一開始開中民議講我們每一次發言五分鐘如果有認為必要可以再提出第二輪的發言那我們剛剛看到很多委員講話已經超過這個"},{"start":4157.659,"end":4185.815,"text":"我所提的這個內容我只想請問一下各位黨團幹部同意不同意我這樣一個宣告就講同意還是不同意不同意沒關係不同意就不同意不同意國民黨團同意請問一下民眾黨團同意不同意國民黨團同意好沒問題我不處理嘛如果你們有意見我不處理好不好好那我現在想對不起吳市長你發言很多"},{"start":4188.567,"end":4216.223,"text":"你第三次了我現在稍微念第二條大家同意不同意那第一條我們就暫緩討論好不好時間先等一下再說第二前次協商有幾個黨團幹部有請了其他委員來我覺得這個讓我對其他委員很不好意思因為他也離開現場我建議我們以後在預算的時候啊重要法案的時候各位黨團覺得要某些召委或者其他委員要列席的時候如果一個黨團提出其他兩個黨團沒有意見"},{"start":4218.044,"end":4234.602,"text":"我們是不是可以同意 這點要先確定同意不同意等一下不同意如果這樣的話我還念完嘛 不要急事情是這個樣子的 慢慢來如果說因為上次針對"},{"start":4236.055,"end":4249.862,"text":"我們洪偉來我很不好意思我請他離場因為我們希望黨團三長在開草案協商的時候當然代表如果黨團三長有事情請不要派代表來代替我們先確定黨團三長出席這個神聖慶"},{"start":4251.303,"end":4272.056,"text":"第二,針對個別重要的預算跟法案,大家覺得有需要委員來列席,大家都同意也可以。第三,如果主席認為要邀請某些委員來列席的時候,三位黨團都同意的話,我們也可以請這些召集委員或委員來說明,請問這樣可不可以接受?"},{"start":4276.729,"end":4285.733,"text":"這個你旁邊那個作案來你的意思是跟你創造出一個組局的潛力什麼時候立法院要來立法院開會是要組局同意的究竟什麼法院我要來這裡發言要院長同意的"},{"start":4293.51,"end":4322.368,"text":"我剛才就是在講這個問題啦,講很久了,後面就講這個問題我們柳寬怡,小熊有幾個熊,她就是有兩位小熊昨天,你有沒有看執行新法委會自己協商,從來沒有限制人數過,現在也沒有限制人數過這麼多年,三十年來,就是如此其他委員,因為主持協商就執行委員那你是不是也去啊,當然都有去嘛,是不是啊,所以呢"},{"start":4324.795,"end":4326.419,"text":"侯孟楷 我要講這個"},{"start":4329.668,"end":4357.063,"text":"這麼多人已經形成了憲政管理反正我們好不容易形成憲政管理能夠讓我們民主在這裡實現是一個非常重要的不是你來當院長以後然後婦人局請了婦人局指揮那是不是第一次協商我們在你在你院長室頭頭一刻就表決什麼還要給學長就表決紅毛黨也義務如此啊問題在法院在哪裡那這件事情我顯然清楚所以今天是一個非常關鍵的時刻"},{"start":4358.755,"end":4381.667,"text":"委員說,曾經一個法案搞一年多,還在委員會審查,當然早就應該出來了,最有名就是主委黃志華去民進黨領維州搞一兩年,都沒有關係,這個法案我們都能夠討論都可以討論,是一個民主的殿堂。"},{"start":4382.868,"end":4395.116,"text":"草案協商也是一樣所以我們回到院長組織的黨團協商執政新法68條開始就很清楚那我們今天要講的就是說你剛才其實韓院長也發生這個問題嘛反其山長不管民進黨山長、國民黨山長、民進黨山長你也有一個是萬人的法案爆發中啦"},{"start":4413.254,"end":4430.183,"text":"一個會期通過法案一年通過法案有一百多條一個會上屆總共通過將近七百個法案連其他的五百多個連其他的七百多個醫生案等等、會職案等等"},{"start":4432.028,"end":4450.287,"text":"都是靠黨團協商當然行政部門意見是非常重要因為他們最了解所有內容所以你要了解議法院所通過的任何法案是影響到每一個人比如說健保會點子一定要大家1.0"},{"start":4452.141,"end":4466.133,"text":"這東西是委員委會他們最清楚,他們經常討論,每一個人都有他的專業,當然山長要很努力去遲早寫章,要去先研究,那我不相信啊。"},{"start":4467.133,"end":4470.877,"text":"所以今天我剛才第一個程序問題就是要談這個上個禮拜"},{"start":4484.753,"end":4512.554,"text":"何志豪幹事長為了這個事情說那我懇求你,拜託你好不好,挨求你好不好,這樣很多法案你要讓提案人有人來參與,委員會的人都不能來,這個立法委員難道這個尹強東不是委員嗎?所以這個很重要,所以院長第一個,我終於解決你,第一個就是說都剩下一些等一下好不好,我不要講我沒有關係好不好。請你能夠濃縮一點好不好。好啦好啦,我知道。謝謝。"},{"start":4513.695,"end":4540.536,"text":"發言人說,你剛才提了兩個重點,就是說,整個人也有適合這個問題,增加什麼哪些人,要增加多少人,我們往下走下去。可是還沒走到這裡的時候,你又說,要增加多少人,當然要同意,這都絕對不行的。第二個,你有一個,因為報案條款,你同意也可以,這個不是這樣搞的。所以這個邏輯上是錯的,重點來,你應該好好的不會設計這些東西的。"},{"start":4542.655,"end":4559.787,"text":"議法人不是只有這樣恢復到一個八項條款而已要這代人要院長同意那院長不同意怎麼辦呢啊你們大家講好一定講不好嘛所以過去怎麼做現在應該怎麼做而且很多都非常複雜怎麼講英文都聽得懂"},{"start":4560.546,"end":4576.469,"text":"那是你們根本不想了解法案內容,很多法案,包括司法法院很多法案,希望其實未來打砸什麼法都會進來,非常多,各部會在各委會,公安同工生死,你想想看,太多的東西了,所以大家要很多。"},{"start":4577.8,"end":4600.482,"text":"經濟委員會有經濟的法案,電影法有電影法的法案,都是我們要尊重委員會的專業、委員會中心主義。你把委員都摸索回來的委員中心主義,所有法案從而經過讀,你反正就公平就算了吧。所以今天我們是,我是很理性在跟你談,我最憂心的是這個部分,我講坦白啦。"},{"start":4601.912,"end":4619.202,"text":"曾經三十年,民進黨三十年在立法院表決幾番次,說實在沒有贏過半次。我一九九三年進來到現在,到2016年的時候,二十年以來沒有表決過,沒有贏過。但是我們還是主持人職啊,我們不屈不撓,一直把民主實踐嘛。"},{"start":4622.113,"end":4627.496,"text":"二零一六以後補八年,那是每個人拚來拚去嘛,每個人拚來拚去,所以我們現在要說,以後他不是,你現在齁"},{"start":4633.207,"end":4633.788,"text":"你們所有的目標"},{"start":4657.583,"end":4683.244,"text":"昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?"},{"start":4684.38,"end":4686.782,"text":"第一,請黨團山長來這裡列席,是第一次草野協商,你直接指責民眾黨的"},{"start":4711.103,"end":4711.604,"text":"主席要求"},{"start":4729.558,"end":4737.825,"text":"請大家聽我講我們為什麼參與協商想建立這些就是過去總結的幾次經驗那柯總長剛剛對我的批判有一點偏差好像我這個主席把自己權無限放大必須徵詢我主席的同意誰才能列席或者不列席 錯"},{"start":4756.221,"end":4773.036,"text":"我們這樣建立黨團三長列席是第一次,你講的,我們覺得有道理。民眾黨來了兩位委員,你還講了一句很重的話,你今天是老人來的嗎?那時候還是你親口講,就在這個位置。我知道有道理,所以我們才確定黨團三長。"},{"start":4774.571,"end":4775.572,"text":"請提出,其他黨團沒有意見,歡迎來列席。"},{"start":4789.013,"end":4807.138,"text":"如果主席有認為哪些委員要列席來補充說明三個黨團都同意也歡迎來列席我沒有一點阿爸你嚴重誤會我的意思我只想點點滴滴來建立所以後面我要念一下在預算審查期間你們再聽聽看"},{"start":4809.296,"end":4830.766,"text":"預算協商時國民黨團推派五人民眾黨團推派五人台灣民眾黨推派四人參加以上人數是包括黨團三長這要徵詢大家的同意至於其他的議案若各黨團認為有增加其他委員參加的必要經過各黨團的同意我現在在協商的代表"},{"start":4837.281,"end":4866.921,"text":"我等一下印一份給你我們就允許來增加委員來參與協商這是一個比較完整的所以你一聽到前面就開始扭曲我主席我所講的我完全誤會所以我問各位三位黨團以後列席代表是不是以黨團幹部為主當黨團幹部請假有時不能來的時候請不要叫其他委員來頂替代替參加可以不可以那我一點一滴來嘛"},{"start":4867.762,"end":4873.176,"text":"這點可以不可以?來,院長,我先回答你的問題好不好?好我剛才講過,你說這個"},{"start":4876.523,"end":4899.989,"text":"寫章有很多種,陳信玉寫章什麼時候開議什麼時候,那個都很簡單的。往後就有很複雜的事情,預算,預算還有溫室預算。過去我曾經在這個地方,我當黨的阿美爾時期,我一個人來二十幾個國民黨,但是我們都走過來,沒有關係。所以預算法是一個非常繁雜的。"},{"start":4901.749,"end":4927.142,"text":"然後一上面提的是五六千個法案 五六千個案子然後再一直一謀 一直謀所以 院長不必不必謝謝我跟您謝謝等一下不是 我現在講說我現在回答你的問題嘛不是 我現在回答問題就是說因為各黨要爭相的人是要互相同意這個等於不可能的事情嘛"},{"start":4927.822,"end":4951.358,"text":"包括你說你提出來要大家同意這不可能是所以這個是無效的提議嘛這是無效的我們要面對現實到底哪些人應該讓他進來委員會召委提案委員各黨要取決尤其是法案和預算都是有經濟委員選國會是預算你不叫他來像搞財政的他怎麼懂的搞文化的他怎麼懂的所以這個東西是當然山長要負責"},{"start":4955.25,"end":4958.333,"text":"第三點我一併唸出來,請各位黨團幹部來討論。我是嘗試性的來建立。第三點,院會進行表決的時候,開會時大家難免會走動。"},{"start":4979.194,"end":5004.439,"text":"議場會有喧嘩的情況我要請各位黨團幹部也要拜託一起來共同維護一下議場的次序一同維護立法院井然有序理性問政的形象這是我一開始想要建立的這三點如果各位連這一點都有意見的話那我們未來院會一定會生很多不必要的波折所以我們一點一滴來建立請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":5008.36,"end":5031.95,"text":"我們一點點來討論啦針對以前講的就是說議場的時候這個要如何維護嘛你講幾年遊戲啦那議場安全局維護管理局安全維護條例辦法裡面寫得很清楚不可攜帶麥克風後來不可化罪丟名字都一一列出來了包括動物內臟"},{"start":5034.517,"end":5049.074,"text":"所以這幾年有去做四個字是大家是一個指引而已因為幾次講得很清楚嘛那個都寫在那裡議長應做的安全辦法裡面寫很清楚二個寫在胸前等等"},{"start":5050.103,"end":5076.888,"text":"所以過去是拿這個來丟的啦所以 董事長我這幾年只有幾年有序 不夠清楚啦但是我們在講這個講說不要亂說 大家不要亂進來 國民黨只有國民黨會搞這一套啦再來演講破壞在抗議嘛 所以這一點我們先把這個什麼叫幾年有序定義清楚"},{"start":5080.496,"end":5106.563,"text":"說好的我們都贊成不管我們再執政再也都是一樣我要再澄清一件事情這是我的想法跟周恩來秘書長一點關係都沒有不是他熟識我或者建議我這樣我只是感覺院會朝野協商我們一點一滴來建立一些規範我只是這樣想所以把它訴諸於文字向大家宣告我知道院長有想把這個事情做好一點我是認同的"},{"start":5709.486,"end":5718.692,"text":"來各位黨團幹部各位列席官員我們一起繼續開會好不好不會不會不會"},{"start":5731.124,"end":5750.637,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部現在我們繼續開會我想再一次建議就針對第一個時間問題第二協商代表還有預算我們派554然後經過各黨團同意我們就允許增加委員會參與協商第三"},{"start":5751.578,"end":5751.998,"text":"現在我們請吳思耀委員"},{"start":5774.163,"end":5794.021,"text":"謝謝主席,我想就是因為等一下進入協商,那我要回應一下,那剛剛那個洪孟凱書記長說,那民進黨有沒有對岸,行政部門有沒有對岸,那我可能要說明一下,這樣一個違憲的法案,違法的法案,我們不可能有對岸。"},{"start":5794.582,"end":5795.142,"text":"五分鐘不夠講"},{"start":5806.209,"end":5826.338,"text":"我的口才沒有問題我的表達能力沒有問題我想在場的每一位表達能力都沒有問題恐怕是對方的理解能力有問題所以我們需要多花時間好好來對話跟論述那也擔心大家那個聆聽能力有問題的話我有準備比較清楚的資料大家也可以看一下"},{"start":5827.518,"end":5850.718,"text":"就是為什麼我們沒有提對案?因為這三個法案是違反憲法第七十條的。行政院對於行政院所提的預送案不得為增加支出這決議,所以這是違反憲法七十條。它也違反大法官釋字第391號,行政立法權力分立的原則。對面的朋友如果理解能力,"},{"start":5851.559,"end":5853.821,"text":"這三個法案也違反了我們立法院自己修的法"},{"start":5872.08,"end":5894.382,"text":"財政紀律法第五條財政紀律法第八條以及預算法第九十一條我就不再贅述所以一個違憲又違法的法案我們當然不可能提對案所以不要說沒有對案好像就不關心交通建設好像就無助於今天的討論我想先釐清這是非常錯誤的顛倒是非"},{"start":5895.236,"end":5917.904,"text":"第二 未來如果再限制我們的出席人員我還是希望因為在審法案的時候該委員會的委員尤其是召委是一定我認為他是必要出席的而不是經大家同意才能夠額外plus的他就是必須到場"},{"start":5920.566,"end":5935.578,"text":"因為一個委員會有兩個召委,各黨的召委都可以來,他可以清楚地針對在協商的時間來提供這些法案在委員會審查當中的爭點在哪裡,所以召委的出席絕對有利於協商的品質跟效率"},{"start":5936.218,"end":5936.618,"text":"提案委員．提案委員"},{"start":5952.993,"end":5953.413,"text":"法案提案委員"},{"start":5983.424,"end":6001.952,"text":"黨團同意,我覺得這樣非常怪我這講的是非常公平的事情那同樣的原則跟原理也運用在預算的協商一樣預算協商的時候當然該委員會的委員一定要能夠是受邀的必然的列席人員以及呢某些議案"},{"start":6003.132,"end":6027.622,"text":"某一個委員他一直堅持這個預算他就是要砍他就是要保留他有堅強強大的理由他必須來到協商的現場論述給大家聽那他當然也是要列席之列所以我是對於剛剛主席的才是我要提出這個實務的以我過去非常之前的九年的國會運作的經驗那我想提出我的分享那第三件事情就是"},{"start":6028.562,"end":6028.582,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6043.775,"end":6043.855,"text":"《國民黨黨團提議》"},{"start":6066.929,"end":6092.227,"text":"回答的時間他們才能夠基於他們的專業來說明每一個條文可行、不可行、合理、不合理所以不是只有協商的場域不是只有立委有發言權而是代表都要有然後最後一項呢就是我也對於今天的法案的程序我有一點點不太理解因為有三個案如果依交通委員會送審排完的這個順序第一個案應該是花東快速道路"},{"start":6093.007,"end":6093.147,"text":"副總召謝謝院長"},{"start":6120.776,"end":6129.596,"text":"我在這裡要再一次讓本院院長及本院委員還有全國國人來了解"},{"start":6131.602,"end":6156.799,"text":"這包括環島高鐵路網、國道六號還有這個花東快這個都是經過長年的討論這個花東快呢是在2016年立法委員徐政衛委員就已經提出來2017年在立法院表決這個花東快而且希望納入前瞻基礎計畫結果民進黨反對把這個案子封殺了"},{"start":6161.382,"end":6173.83,"text":"已經經過八年的不斷的一再的重複的討論那環島高鐵2021年有王部長說出環島高鐵不是夢之後經過本席跟蘇貞昌蘇院長在院會也有多次討論包括陳建仁陳院長我們都有多次的討論"},{"start":6190.262,"end":6200.914,"text":"對這個事情他們都持正面的看法我們今天提出的條例正是因為有經過委員會跟院會的討論過才把它正式的把它提出來"},{"start":6205.158,"end":6212.666,"text":"國道六號本席在2020年3月10日在交通委員會 民進黨延遲3年6個月以後在去年年底發報"},{"start":6223.131,"end":6247.24,"text":"2020年3月4號在交通委員會就已經通過但到2023年的12月才正式發包這個都經過冗長的立法院委員會以及院會的討論三大案甚至在立法院都有表決過尤其花東快速道路是在2017年前瞻基礎計畫的時候徐正慧立委提出來"},{"start":6248.513,"end":6276.45,"text":"但是被民進黨立委在院會以狹多數暴力的方式來否決了這個案子然後呢再過來在這一次這個2024總統大選民進黨所提名的花蓮區的立法委員候選人跟台東區的立法委員候選人都把他列為政見的主要政見的第一條上網查就可以查得到賴清德總統當選人在競選的時候也到花蓮表示"},{"start":6277.25,"end":6305.823,"text":"花東快他們是支持的所以本席指示把所有這些政治人物對人民的承諾把它付諸條例來進行推動跟實施而這一屆這幾個案子都在立法院交通委員會以及經濟委員會的聯席這次會議當中都經過了完整的詢答但是滿遺憾的是詢答完之後"},{"start":6307.911,"end":6335.204,"text":"則起在委員會召委召集處理的情況之下民進黨都選擇缺席不出席然後再用各種扭曲睜著眼睛說謊話大概說謊說久了認為說謊就是事實這些經過長年的討論而且委員會也正式詢答過但是唯獨在草引協商的時候民進黨惡意的缺席然後再來韓院長這裡把這裡韓院長主持的草引協商當秀長"},{"start":6336.417,"end":6336.597,"text":"蘇貞昌 蘇院長"},{"start":6362.548,"end":6368.177,"text":"分數不齊 連黨產條例他都是連署人 他一樣召集草原協商所以"},{"start":6369.922,"end":6393.031,"text":"蘇嘉全蘇院長我們要特別強調2016蘇嘉全蘇院長有多少案子是他個人連署也參與草原協商所以我覺得韓院長不要被這些不實的謠言來對你有任何職權行使職權上的任何恐嚇威脅或者謠言重傷都不要怕我們是依照我們的自己的職權在進行"},{"start":6395.253,"end":6400.018,"text":"我要特別強調,依照大法官解釋463號解釋令"},{"start":6411.86,"end":6433.002,"text":"就是在立法院多數立法委員審議預算如果不符條件者就是在審議整個預算的時候我們本來就可以刪除也可以請行政單位來做調整剛剛有沒有提到說我們這些提案是否增加是否增加了預算"},{"start":6435.745,"end":6463.401,"text":"如果我們這個提案是增加預算那是預算案的部分並不是法律案的部分大法官解釋得非常清楚預算案的時候我們不能增加預算但是法律案我們本來就可以提出來我特別在這裡跟全國國人還有我們立法院同仁做個說明這個在立法院這過去到現在這個案例非常的多"},{"start":6466.168,"end":6474.226,"text":"在民國九十年十月十一號基隆河流域整治特別條例裏面"},{"start":6475.799,"end":6500.601,"text":"由廖學光委員所提出來在立法院刪讀通過在95年1月13號石門水庫及其集水區整治特別條例也是刪讀通過這兩個案由林正峰委員所提出來都刪讀通過立法院通過以後行政院並沒有提出版本但是呢行政院還是尊重立法院"},{"start":6502.387,"end":6522.588,"text":"分別的編列預算也都執行完畢所以我特別強調我們所有都是依法在辦理而且經過多年的討論甚至環島高鐵是交通部主動提出來的我們再次強調這個十年今天提出的條例大家都可以來討論"},{"start":6524.363,"end":6550.354,"text":"但是這完全是合法 而且沒有違憲的問題再過來 因為過去有這麼多的案例再過來 我特別強調的為什麼有所謂十年這個問題因為政府公部門公部門在進行所有的這些建設等等跟民間的力量差太多我舉個最簡單的例子台北到宜蘭現在規劃是十一年"},{"start":6552.247,"end":6578.815,"text":"用政府預算支出但是到底要做多少年可能15年18年但是我們反觀從台北一直做到高雄左營都已經通車了台灣高鐵短短7年多民間來做7年啦全部完工通車7年多所以今天是一個很簡單的事情我們的行政效率的腐敗"},{"start":6580.276,"end":6602.627,"text":"行政效率的延宕這個事情是可以交由民間來做會比政府的效率更好所以我要希望執政黨不要在這裡抹黑這裡完全沒有所謂的乾坑法案如果對行政院編列預算有意見沒有關係我們可以討論"},{"start":6604.983,"end":6626.307,"text":"行政委員會的預算可以拿掉 委託民間BOT來做 政府零出資 我們也同意環島高鐵 國道六號 都有民間來做國內國際BOT標 沒問題 政府零出資 我們也接受 不要再文明化 這是情根法案 這是國家要做的基礎建設 早就應該要做的"},{"start":6627.635,"end":6648.006,"text":"臺灣已經跟全世界脫節,就是腐敗的行政體系。我要再次的強調,花東快是賴清德總統到花蓮所承諾的。更是從2016年討論到現在,當時民進黨以多數暴力在立法院在前瞻基礎計畫的時候把它否決掉。"},{"start":6649.584,"end":6674.603,"text":"這是最基本的基礎建設卑微的應該要做的事情因為畢竟這次的大地震我們大家都看到這次的大地震清朝時代走的路我們現在還在給花東人走蘇花公路埋掉了多少人這是台八線埋掉了多少人但是蘇花改卻是最安全的一條路沒有任何人"},{"start":6675.606,"end":6677.007,"text":"麻煩請交通部王部長國家發展委員會的高副主委要不要簡短扼要的"},{"start":6706.039,"end":6707.181,"text":"我們把話先講清楚,不論其他"},{"start":6727.318,"end":6749.847,"text":"你到底在講什麼我搞不清楚那應該是講說 花東快可以演繹而已花東快在中央部委員也在做可行性評估八月份才會出來所以我們先不講這些東西講一個憲政框架這比較重要吧就是說你"},{"start":6751.124,"end":6766.008,"text":"整個憲政體系上應該是怎樣的規範行政前是行政前的部分,立法前是立法前的部分剛才吳思堯也講得很清楚我剛才也講得很清楚,這裡面還有391、264還有大華市市520、585那對阿,先往70條,先往58條開始看所以我們現在在講的是說"},{"start":6776.927,"end":6805.261,"text":"你要講BOT是另外,現在你本來就有BOT條例,現在你兩個法案的性質是不一樣的喔。院長我現在講一句話,請你不要再介意。今年三四月的時候,你曾經參加這個柔委員的一個民主改革的營,副院長也氣了。你講一句話說這個民主實在太可愛了。"},{"start":6806.141,"end":6834.157,"text":"可以理性對話是不是這樣我是要講理性對話但是我們沒有關係我講錯你來指正我你講錯我來指正你今天我要講的就是說問題你不要把很多不同的事情插嘴嘴而且根本沒有邏輯基礎生物科技的發展條例生物科技的發展條例那是2012年到了2016年以後我們修改了國會執行法"},{"start":6836.621,"end":6856.355,"text":"有關於這個《立法院組織法》第三條很清楚,院長必須,這是黨派,從此也要意志中立。所以我說院長不宜在這提法案是這個意思,今天很尷尬,要坐在這裡。況且這個法案裡面充滿違憲,尤其花東快。"},{"start":6858.355,"end":6874.926,"text":"鄉長你偏遺傳,你信嗎?現在你倒過來,你是偏遺傳,你特別要遺傳,以後就是偏遺傳了。為甚麼馬英九十二時期,一百零一年,王挺生就提這個法案,馬英九不敢讓他過。"},{"start":6878.848,"end":6905.099,"text":"2016期政會提過沒有錯也不會過今天你請你重來你說立法院討論多久立法院這一屆才開始所有都是新名義新的委員回來討論現在才開始討論所以已經是不同的議會這期也不聯繫了所以今天要談的就是說這個在憲政體制上可以這樣搞嗎我們先談清楚這個"},{"start":6906.454,"end":6926.869,"text":"至於環島高當然現在你講的那個名稱也很奇怪根本不是環島高只是東部四個縣市嘛那個東西本來就有BOT條例坦白講就沒有條例你要怎麼BOT是沒有錯BOT有自辦也有政府辦的"},{"start":6928.314,"end":6956.883,"text":"所以我們要講說兩個東西的層次是不一樣的東西因為花東快很清楚是違反憲法的假如這樣你可以這樣編以後大家編包括接下來你還有新中文那個才厲害因為東部的地址非常糟糕所以它當然一定要可依評估一定要完平嘛這些都沒有錯你就限制什麼都要十年限制它完成"},{"start":6958.069,"end":6978.718,"text":"尤其你要了解你的財源你就隨便寫一個就國際主權之一我看不太懂這是國際主權是哪一國的是中國的一帶一路還是什麼的國際主權基金所以今天我們要提法大家要很冷靜的能夠來談我希望韓院長因為"},{"start":6981.414,"end":7003.997,"text":"歷史記憶讓你當院長的時候你是一個非常關鍵的角色我們今天還沒進入主角是要把很多遊戲規格講清楚因為我們這一屆大家都新來了大家都新來了所以過去立法院應該怎麼樣大家能夠把民主好好地再完成實踐沒有所謂先是五分鐘先是吃素的這一點你給大家思考一下"},{"start":7005.518,"end":7019.735,"text":"尤其你這個行政部門要不要給他限制?行政部門有時候要解釋的時候,有時候司法院要解釋這個總判決,和國務部有不同意見,也會在這裡爭辯啊。對不對?政府要解釋,你要好好解釋。"},{"start":7021.55,"end":7048.697,"text":"所以民主的發展上說限制五分鐘、三分鐘五分鐘太多,三分鐘就好了這是絕對不可能的事情好不好請法院長,你一定要拿這個堅持住反正我們這邊少數,我們認定搞錯了,不要看已經輸嘛這個是,我們一定會認定這個事實啦但我曾經也是表決過三十年沒有贏過,幾關是沒有贏過,我們就走過來啊我們曾經表決都贏八八年"},{"start":7050.454,"end":7063.187,"text":"所以今天形勢已經轉得不一樣了,草小也大我們因為認定這個事實,我們表決都會輸,沒有問題那表決輸沒有關係,但是大家把道理講清楚就好了好不好"},{"start":7064.5,"end":7064.52,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":7079.847,"end":7088.312,"text":"我就聚焦院長剛剛三個問題第一個問題我就沒有按照順序其實我在那天院長請另外的委員說不是山長出去我本來想發言我是不想讓那個氣氛太過於緊張所以我走出去本來我們在草野協商程序性的東西其實確實都是山長程序性的東西"},{"start":7104.921,"end":7109.665,"text":"但實質性的討論,其實草委協商：你說召委：即使說慣例裡面大家都走來走去：各個政黨也都不會去反對：那譬如說,明天我們很快就會討論到的公糧補貼的部分那這些的部分,你說農業縣的立委甚至於說召委你沒讓他進來我們這些比較都市的來討論這個,通嗎?"},{"start":7130.748,"end":7135.295,"text":"也不太對你就涉及到整個醫療的或者涉及到整個點數的"},{"start":7138.175,"end":7163.805,"text":"怎麼計價的問題你說未完的沒有來這也好奇怪這真的好奇怪所以那天在講我本來要跟你補一下說我們本來山長講的是在慣例上其實都是程序性實質性的東西本來就是有各委員會的召委這才是合理的嘛大家共同院長的職務本來就是讓整個議案或立法的程序整個立法院的議事程序的進行讓它更順遂"},{"start":7165.786,"end":7175.673,"text":"那剛剛那個副分級總召講的,院長你沒聽,他完全在胡說八道,你知道嗎?為什麼說他胡說八道?比如說一個雪隧,雪隧才12.9公里,蓋了二十幾年,你也不應該去講說行政效率那麼差,那麼貪腐,我不會這樣去想。"},{"start":7186.607,"end":7191.791,"text":"水稅這個是被列為工程界的奇蹟被列入大英百科全書裏面大家覺得這是台灣很不簡單的工程上它會有困難的有些工期長有時候你不要以為是人定勝天倒未必我剛私底下我也跟副總召講我說不是反對你花蓮的建設不是反對你台東的建設高鐵到台東到花蓮高鐵沒有到屏東你永遠沒辦法到台東到花蓮"},{"start":7214.309,"end":7216.41,"text":"所以你乾脆就我們在個案來推動嘛你高鐵現在到我屏東六號快速還要幾年呢?還要十幾年呢?啊接下來你行政會合定的是要到潮州呢?你不是來個案幫忙推動?你到了潮州以後你再去想想看路廊要怎麼走啊?"},{"start":7234.619,"end":7245.883,"text":"合理啊 你去看看喔1987年 那個時候 中國國民黨執政的時候你們行政院去指示交通部去台灣高鐵 我們去做可行性評估研究了快四年欸"},{"start":7250.553,"end":7254.075,"text":"當初是怎麼樣叫 行政院指示交通部去做可行性評估啊 立法院沒那麼厲害啦 立法院沒有辦法去 我們不要外行去領導內行啦立法院我們去做法案 去對行政部門的監督 我認為是非常合理啦 但是啊 想到什麼就想去做什麼"},{"start":7273.719,"end":7281.027,"text":"沒那麼簡單,好像就變成行政院就廢掉就好了,你行政院來做我們立法院的行政局就好了,這個也不通,這個也不通。"},{"start":7283.925,"end":7287.706,"text":"回到原來剛剛院長講那個就是說我認為啦程序性確實是真的是三長啦但是實質性的東西依然的不同真的是要真的是建議讓不同專業的人可以進來可以進來那至於說講幾分鐘難免啦難免我發現議員我笑過你也不懂這個都很正常那立法院裡面你說要要你剛講四個字叫做什麼一"},{"start":7310.778,"end":7317.901,"text":"清生細魚?可有可能!你說兩個宗教大家睡著見了面兩個人就要對幹了是要清生細魚?有時候我說的大聲,因為你看到我的眼神你也知道這很溫柔的對不對?你看我說的大聲,做我奶咪術的也笑眉眉!大聲是不一定叫拍椅啦!你知道嗎?不一定叫拍椅啦!每個人表達的方式不一樣!"},{"start":7333.968,"end":7345.383,"text":"但是讓它可以更順遂的去進行我是覺得院長怎麼猜試那都會合理啦但不要說用同意的方式啦程序跟實質本來就有所不同啦好不好"},{"start":7347.134,"end":7372.468,"text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言,我補充兩點。第一,我是說我們在院會表決的時候,坐在下面的委員彼此聊天的時候,請黨團幹部約束,讓大家盡量輕聲細語。不是說質詢的委員輕聲細語,那這個質詢起來還有什麼震撼性或威力可言等等。彼此委員在聊天的時候不要喧嘩,大家輕聲細語,是這個意思。第二,沒關係。"},{"start":7374.531,"end":7375.992,"text":"至於其他議案除各委員會院會說明之外說明人"},{"start":7403.55,"end":7411.387,"text":"為外圍有增加其他委員會參加的必要經過各黨團都同意我們就允許相關的委員來參加"},{"start":7412.968,"end":7440.038,"text":"類似像這樣的一個文字精神我們修正完我下次來提出來但是不管怎麼樣就是剛剛幾位委員講的很有道理原住民案原住民不說明農業縣農業委員不說明衛生醫療這的的確確這是說不過去的所以我嘗試性的下一次我把文字修正再跟大家報告接下來我們請吳思堯委員發言發言完以後請交通部王部長還有國家發展委員會高副主委請準備"},{"start":7441.149,"end":7456.579,"text":"主席,我會努力輕聲細語。我一直認為,講話若是有道理,就變大聲。對,講話若是有道理,就變大聲。而且問政、質詢也不是為了要求什麼威力、震撼性,我都不這樣認為。據李立正,我們說話有道理,變大聲。"},{"start":7459.961,"end":7483.373,"text":"那我這裡要說就是回應一下傅坤祺總召剛剛說的其實事實很清楚交通建設在花蓮我們都支持而事實上關心花東建設的發展民進黨執政的八年是最用心到目前為止對於花東的交通建設整個民進黨八年的政府投入了五千兩百億"},{"start":7484.654,"end":7501.949,"text":"已經投入的兩千兩百億,規劃中的三千億,所以照顧花東,民進黨政府最用心。已經,來主席,有人沒有輕聲細語,就傅坤祺總召又在這種很奇怪的笑聲干擾了本席的發言。"},{"start":7503.089,"end":7520.934,"text":"然後呢第二個就講剛剛副總召說的花東快速公路的建設其實早在過去國民黨執政的時候馬英九政府執政的時候交通部就已經提出一個可行性評估對不對等一下王部長可以回應王部長"},{"start":7522.114,"end":7534.1,"text":"在花東快速公路的建設在一百零四年的時候交通部的可行性評估是被馬英九總統任內打回票的您等一下可以再說是不是我說的是正確的"},{"start":7535.595,"end":7561.147,"text":"而是民進黨想方設法針對花東快速公路的建設在蔡英文總統上任以後一百零九年重啟了這一個建設案的可行性評估再講一次有關副冠祺總召今天您提的特別條例裡頭之一的花東快速公路建設馬英九執政的時候一百零四年"},{"start":7561.767,"end":7586.352,"text":"打回票了交通部的可行性評估也就是馬英九否認否定了這個案子但是民進黨政府上台蔡英文總統讓這個案子重啟評估死灰復燃重新能夠被討論花東能夠被發展所以道理講清楚說明白照顧花東建設立法院當然"},{"start":7587.532,"end":7587.952,"text":"這是在幹什麼?是在掛電話位嗎?"},{"start":7616.266,"end":7627.276,"text":"是在搶功勞嗎為了花東的建設功勞是大家一起努力推動的所以能夠讓它成形成案是我們共同的目標"},{"start":7628.786,"end":7651.122,"text":"然後因為傅恩熙委員對於高鐵我講高鐵這個提案高鐵的這個提案裡頭您說要限期十年完成而高鐵的這個特別條例呢您所提的條文是只有八個條對不起有幾個條文高鐵的這個案子有十個條文"},{"start":7652.743,"end":7672.712,"text":"對於環島高鐵副國務卿委員的提案特別條例是十個條文十個條文當中就是壓了要限期十年完成大家可以去回溯一下我如果講錯等一下王部長可以指證我就是現在已經完成的台灣的高鐵是從民國七十六年開始可行性評估一直到高鐵"},{"start":7674.073,"end":7702.642,"text":"通過可行性評估開始進行所有的招標程序開始進行所有的施工、興建到完工是民國九十六年所以高鐵現行的高鐵是經過了七十六年到九十六年從第一個可行性評估到最後的完工他就要二十年現在傅坤祺委員的提案要求十年就要完成誰做得到呢這就是這個條文不合理的地方更何況"},{"start":7703.742,"end":7728.925,"text":"發生了大地震,很多台灣的地質受損,還需要更嚴謹的環境影響評估,不是嗎?最後一個,剛剛因為副總召提了過去賴清德主席如何如何,哪一個明代或哪一個蔡英文總統如何如何,那我也只好拿出過去傅坤祺委員在2017年5月8號接受專訪的時候,這是傅坤祺總召說的,"},{"start":7730.626,"end":7734.07,"text":"今天民進黨提出的前瞻建設4200億預算新建輕軌跟捷運,哇,未來的營運會虧損多少呢?國家要把這些問題講給國民聽才可以來審查。"},{"start":7744.208,"end":7761.522,"text":"這是2017年5月8號副坤祺委員的立場我覺得非常對在審查任何的交通建設都要好好的說給國民聽未來的營運計劃新建的計劃是如何我支持2017年副坤祺委員的說法"},{"start":7762.262,"end":7782.769,"text":"同樣在我對面的有紅夢凱委員紅夢凱委員在2021年的10月27號在立法院交通委員會質詢有關於高鐵環台到底有沒有經過可行性評估呢?要花多少民脂民膏呢?紅夢凱委員更質疑高鐵從南港拉到宜蘭就要花1700多億那麼"},{"start":7785.871,"end":7800.868,"text":"環島高鐵又要花多少錢呢?紅夢凱委員在2021年10月27號立法院的議事錄交通委員會可以找得到紅夢凱委員認為這種花大錢的環島高鐵要好好的進行可行性評估"},{"start":7802.35,"end":7808.835,"text":"所以我就以今天坐在現場的兩位我都非常同意你們過去的發言那同樣的現在我們在審查這個重要的交通建設就應當尋交通的專業可行性評估所有的營運計劃新建的計劃都應當好好討論所以今天一次發言限制五分鐘我再講一次給我五十次發言我都非常樂意來跟公共對話跟在野黨對話"},{"start":7829.39,"end":7853.639,"text":"所以請等一下那個王國才部長可以回應一下我剛剛說的幾個問題完整的交通評估是什麼現在的花東快是不是就是在我們109年蔡英文上任之後讓她重啟評估而今年8月就會有可行性評估的出爐以及現在的高鐵是花了幾十年的時間去興建這些部分就專業論專業需要行政部門來示意謝謝"},{"start":7857.02,"end":7858.483,"text":"民眾黨黃總召跟吳春成有沒有任何寶貴的意見?"},{"start":7870.024,"end":7887.504,"text":"第一個是針對今天院長所建議在程序上進行的方式,我們原則上是贊同的。因為這直接會牽涉到黨團協商他的本質。"},{"start":7889.454,"end":7915.628,"text":"因為在我國立法院這個非常特殊的黨團協商的制度在立法院職員刑事法裡面相關的條文規範的比較少但是它的本質是針對大家有不一樣意見的看可不可以尋求共識因此黨團協商的本質是共識決共識決就是如果有人不同意協商就不成立"},{"start":7916.963,"end":7936.904,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子所以黨團協商其實也沒有強制出席的效力就好像我們所召集的黨團協商民主進步黨黨團不來我們也沒有辦法所有的人在那邊枯坐等了一個小時民進黨就是不來"},{"start":7938.186,"end":7938.206,"text":"廣告"},{"start":7968.686,"end":7996.722,"text":"就坐在這邊那只不過說有時候在討論一些問題的時候不是就事論事的討論是在進行人身攻擊從人家做的姿勢笑的聲音臉部的表情全部都可以成為黨團協商評論的內容那真的有的時候就會讓人家不知道時間的分配跟使用"},{"start":7999.366,"end":8019.577,"text":"到底有什麼意義但上一次在黨團協商針對程序性的事項我也再次的請教了院長跟秘書長事後也有機會到院會跟兩會確認我那天的理解沒有錯誤目前立法院的遊戲規則是當有黨團拉必須要黨團協商"},{"start":8026.109,"end":8047.161,"text":"那就是強制冷凍一個月那這一個月內必須要召集一次的協商但是那一次的協商並沒有限定一定要是院長召集的協商換言之也就是在委員會召集過協商那協商不成立了以後那我們接下來就可以依照規則"},{"start":8048.522,"end":8064.73,"text":"交給院會處理當然黨團如果要選擇交給院長來再進行協商這個是黨團也有這個程序上的機會拜託院長您再出面看可不可以尋求一定的共識"},{"start":8065.971,"end":8086.085,"text":"我想對於這個運作上面的規則我相信院長跟秘書長都非常非常的清楚那這個是今天針對程序性上面的事項我們先表達我們的看法那就實質上面的事項就實質上面的事項我們的黨團有討論過針對有關於重要的建設支持"},{"start":8096.252,"end":8096.452,"text":"執行委員"},{"start":8115.353,"end":8134.718,"text":"或公共債務法相關的限制,我們也不同意。當然,任何的交通建設都必須要有可行性的評估。可行性的評估,我們認為說,有可行性的評估,行政部門負責任地做出來了以後,"},{"start":8135.758,"end":8159.009,"text":"交由立法院來把關確定真的有可行性的時候我們再往下走因為今天也只是協商大家表達大家基本的立場並沒有要就法條的文字去做細部的調整所以以上先就今天院長所提出來程序性的事項"},{"start":8159.989,"end":8187.688,"text":"以及在這個交通建設上面我們原則上我們支持建設但我們不同意用特別預算的方式來加以處理遵守財政的紀律以及要求可行性的評估大概是我們黨團基本的立場以上說明謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的發言各位黨的幹部我們請行政列席的王部長跟高副主委簡短二要來說明對我們特別條例有什麼看法請"},{"start":8191.891,"end":8213.267,"text":"委員長、各位委員,整個交通建設,我們現在整個交通建設都是用行政中長期個案計畫,這也是剛才黃國昌委員所提的,可信心研究、綜合規劃、環評、設計、施工,過去很多案子都這樣,如果以在場委員來看,包括亞美投入的延伸,現在這個"},{"start":8217.891,"end":8242.21,"text":"高鐵延伸屏東包括彈江大橋、湖門崗園彈江大橋包括傅文綺委員的樹花庵、院長過去在高雄的捷運黃線包括黃國昌委員在當時徵集汽池交流道的改善、康林街南路閘道包括傅院長、國歐市楓園段、林思敏委員的"},{"start":8243.502,"end":8272.238,"text":"新竹輕軌都是按照這個程序這個程序也不是說一個好像故意刁難的程序它是讓這個案子更可行的一個程序所以我們還是建議說在整個這個計畫不適合用一個特別條例然後讓它來就是進行某一個個案計畫來執行還是回到剛才談到的這個可行性的評估程序那今天的這個三個案子國道六號東延花蓮是我們現在正在進行中"},{"start":8272.958,"end":8283.653,"text":"因為他國六號到花蓮同樓最大問題是穿越中岸山脈所以我們現在在做路廊的選擇還地質的踏桿這在115年就會完成"},{"start":8285.866,"end":8303.322,"text":"高鐵的計畫,高鐵現在有兩段,南邊是到屏東的六塊處,北邊是到宜蘭的縣政中心。我們都留下了延長的空間,讓它可以延伸。這意思是說,高鐵延伸宜蘭、屏東,這個現在在綜合規劃跟環平。"},{"start":8307.85,"end":8307.87,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8325.456,"end":8351.777,"text":"我們也希望說在過去的這兩段也是按照這樣的方式來質詢《花東快速道路》剛才薩爾委員所提的在104年、103年是不可行的所以它是中斷的那的確是由徐政惠委員當時提出在108年提出說能夠重啟那我們也接受這個主決議所以我們就重啟了在今年的8月就完成可行性報告了"},{"start":8352.498,"end":8367.087,"text":"如果完成可行的話接下來就開始走所以這個程序也是非常的快所以我們也是覺得說全國的陸海空建設非常的多每個過去都是遵守這樣的程序來走"},{"start":8369.989,"end":8370.93,"text":"謝謝交通部王部長說明 接下來請國家發展委員會高副主委請說明"},{"start":8390.599,"end":8410.459,"text":"委員長還有各黨團的代表這次的環島高速鐵路的特別條例把國發會列為主管機關那我想我國發會有兩點意見的表達第一個就是說其實我們現在政府推動重大交通建設的機制已經相當的明確那其實剛剛就是"},{"start":8411.3,"end":8411.46,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8435.524,"end":8460.456,"text":"所謂的行政院所屬的中長程個案計劃,您報行政院報行政院以後會交國發會審議這在審議的過程中間要符合所有的相關法令,比如是環境影響評估水土保持法為什麼要經過這樣的繁複的行政程序呢?基本上是要確保政府的支出具有效益,而且有助於我們國土的永續發展"},{"start":8462.297,"end":8481.906,"text":"第二點,其實我們交通建設其實依現在鐵路法的規定交通建設的主管機關是交通部高速鐵路的主管機關是交通部那剛才其實部長有講到西部的這些高速鐵路的目前是由"},{"start":8482.766,"end":8505.992,"text":"交通部來主管如果東部是由國發會來主管的話第一個也不符合我們國發會的職責而且同時東西兩部是有不同的主管機關第三個我想剛才那個建設時程10年剛剛委員也有講過了其實我們從可行性研究到真正的輿運的時候事實上是耗時了21年所以以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":8507.35,"end":8508.732,"text":"主席、各位委員同仁。我想經過大家討論"},{"start":8525.928,"end":8541.602,"text":"都是應該很理性的,應該很多現象都浮現很清楚,剛才民眾黨也表示他的意見和看法,大家都很清楚。所以請副院長知道,你不要每次講話說民進黨的福田獎勵,我們回來福田獎勵說威脅恐嚇院長。"},{"start":8544.504,"end":8571.103,"text":"這些都是沒有這回事我們要把道理講清楚剛才講說高鐵民用機以後七年完成給民進黨做的話這政府做法貪污根本不對高鐵從民國76年就是解嚴那一年蔣經國開始大建設然後再開始經過幾年才合併合併下來以後到1999年開始動工"},{"start":8573.505,"end":8598.144,"text":"因為六號東延的時候那時候是李登輝時代然後完成時代2006,2006是阿美時期那時候馬英雄講了一句話,高鐵是廢鐵還在反對高鐵今天即便在民進黨史政時期二位曾志安還發了很多心事在議會裡面處理我們兩個反對,要把高鐵弄到蓋不起來"},{"start":8599.249,"end":8616.83,"text":"所以整個歷史大家看了,高鐵歷史是一個台灣,坦白講高鐵,今天台灣沒有高鐵的話,會變成怎麼樣?沒關係,就是講高鐵是不是廢鐵?2016要通車,後來又採改,後來又政治案,然後在2015"},{"start":8619.212,"end":8644.089,"text":"二零一五的時候,文黨來執政的時候,執政院長叫毛志國,他中央部長出身的,為了高鐵裁改在郵案,所有人都在反對,毛志國還到我公司,我說他想放棄,我說這怎麼可能放棄,是吧?後來我們執政以後,才把高鐵的這個裁改完成,我也感興那時候從"},{"start":8645.749,"end":8655.192,"text":"兩任董事長 包括現在的總經理 他們都很努力 董事長前面有潘志祥董事長能不能把這個延長時間 讓他延長時間有關於"},{"start":8664.643,"end":8688.922,"text":"一段時間還要完整也就是說讓這種好不容易高鐵路完成這是經過非常長的一條路所以這個明明有所謂的什麼民進黨在台灣民進黨是把它完成的不知道血稅也是一樣血稅是最困難的尤其我們時代完成兩個月血稅一個金融整治"},{"start":8689.602,"end":8715.879,"text":"那今天回到主題來講的話剛才兩位部長都談得很清楚那我們要談的就是說黃國昌當然講了有前面那一段我是有不同意見的他說草案想交給黨團協商以後一個月以後就可以表決那是70條定期那是定期表決70條之一回頭看68條的時候"},{"start":8718.36,"end":8732.495,"text":"有政治措施或是議案要協商措施回到院長來這已經這麼多年都是如此那黃委員的意思是說今天我們在院長主席查理商都不應該進行只是到FH表決這個是民主嗎"},{"start":8733.956,"end":8756.013,"text":"應該在這裡很多人每天都要大家都做一樣的事情怎麼今天講突然不一樣的話懷疑條例寫得很清楚這一點我倒是沒有辦法接受那當然我回到剛才講到黃榮光講到看起來他也反對反對這個違反這個宣言體制然後然後呢有"},{"start":8757.454,"end":8773.565,"text":"委員個人提案然後叫政府去做這樣的方式嘛那今天假如是這樣的方式當然很清楚我們現在回到的都是說潛力分立原則大家所託我希望我沒有誤解黃常委員的意思"},{"start":8775.227,"end":8775.707,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8790.786,"end":8817.325,"text":"你對花蓮的交通很關心,我們都能體會。但是呢,國家也會來照顧的。這幾年來,交通部在花蓮的交通上面,差不多將近要三千億了。有說要改、說要快,都要做了。當然你要在這三個三項,沒有那麼簡單。地質問題、環境、可行性都要評估。國家財政都要評估的。"},{"start":8819.251,"end":8847.07,"text":"謝謝柯總召發言接下來我們請國民黨團副坤吉總召發言這個謝謝院長今天我從頭到尾都沒提到任何人名但是我在這裡已經被N次提到人名這就是我們長期以來在委員會一直到草原協商的院長召集的協商所以本席一直在講我們是對事情在討論民進黨是對人在討論"},{"start":8848.789,"end":8848.929,"text":"主席"},{"start":8860.385,"end":8885.903,"text":"如果要編列特別預算、舉債的方式民眾黨表示說他們這個部分他們不能接受但是他們願意支持這個民生的建設交通建設必須要來推動我想這個部分就是真正的草野協商是要像這樣子提出的問題他的立場表達而不是完全把人家否定"},{"start":8886.806,"end":8910.945,"text":"而且不斷地人聲攻擊、謾罵等等我要再次強調今天到現在我沒有提任何人的姓名這就是為什麼未來我們要設立一個制度從委員會開始就一路對人聲攻擊一路攻擊所謂的要求發言不斷地repeat的發言就不斷地對人聲在攻擊"},{"start":8912.813,"end":8912.973,"text":"主席"},{"start":8939.645,"end":8956.61,"text":"主要的地方的民生建設的交通建設他們都表示支持我也謝謝我要再次的強調本席剛剛已經講了這麼多的例子我不曉得是聽不懂還是永遠叫不醒在過去立法院已經通過這麼多"},{"start":8958.343,"end":8986.693,"text":"委員當然是秉持民意在政府疏漏的部分疏漏的部分提出該有的建設而經過立法院國會通過以後當然要來執行所以過去不管是90年還是95年本席剛剛都已經講得非常清楚這個院會通過以後也都來執行特別強調有沒有貪污腐化"},{"start":8987.891,"end":9015.105,"text":"等國會聽證跟調查權正式國會無法通過了以後我想這個會做前面的清查到時候再來看有沒有這些事情我想社會大眾大家很多的疑慮到時候可以一目了然能夠大方光明還是要在這裡再提一次今天我要謝謝院長召集這個時間不過我們還是要強調一下今天我們是尊重民進黨"},{"start":9017.267,"end":9040.173,"text":"其實謝謝院長為了要協商我來找你很多次也在晚上在騷擾你很抱歉希望就趕快來召集因為依照2016年蘇嘉前院長主持的院會已經早就做過決議協商一個月期滿"},{"start":9043.038,"end":9048.063,"text":"如果無法達成共識就依立法院職權行事法71條1的規定處理在院會處理"},{"start":9052.724,"end":9075.418,"text":"當時在委員會的協商 民進黨拘捕出席所以草案協商是已經經過了一次應該可以送院會來處理但是我們還是基於審慎跟尊重民進黨的立場還是再請院長來召集協商絕對沒有什麼一分鐘還是十一分鐘我實在完全聽不懂這在委員會就討論了多少個小時"},{"start":9077.06,"end":9103.143,"text":"為什麼用這麼扭曲的話來對一個神聖的地方建設用這種戲謔的方式來講?這立法院都有錄音錄影委員會有沒有開過?有沒有詢答?這個答案都非常清楚的事情為什麼可以在這裡用這種扭曲的方式來進行?竹條!參議協商的時候竹條委員會的竹條有人參加嗎?民進黨拘捕出席讓你竹條為什麼不來呢?"},{"start":9104.96,"end":9122.598,"text":"院長 院長 著急的協商 這時候再來講 什麼一分鐘幾分鐘我覺得大家不要扭曲一個事實 立法院都有錄音錄影 都可以把當時的委員會的記錄可以調出來看的大家不要在這裡齁 過度的扭曲我還是要特別強調 為什麼要連線的問題"},{"start":9125.919,"end":9149.65,"text":"大家不斷在強調 四十年前 民國七十幾年 四十年前 台灣的技術 現在是民國幾年了四十年前 要搞十九年 那四十年後還要搞十九年嗎是不是我們的國家的效率就是這樣子所以 尤其缺德的時候 我們的政府應該與時俱進 但我們要特別強調一個重點"},{"start":9154.059,"end":9180.185,"text":"2008年5月20日國民黨執政經過了兩年八個月2011年1月29日蘇花改動工我再強調一次兩年八個月把所有程序全部走完兩年八個月動工其實蘇花改的動工就很明確有三段沒有做就是第二期蘇花改的二期當然民進黨取名叫蘇花安我們都同意"},{"start":9181.26,"end":9186.005,"text":"但是第一期動工是2011年民國100年1月29號動工但是到了2016年民國105年民進黨執政 到現在為止8年多了蘇花恩在哪裡 一個政府有效率嗎"},{"start":9202.984,"end":9231.775,"text":"國民黨兩年八個月 蘇華改動工 所有程序完成民進黨2016年到現在 蘇華安在哪裡再過來 花東快已經討論了這麼多次還要扯到輕軌 輕軌在台灣就不適合輕軌跟高鐵是何等大的差距 這個common sense啊台灣適不適合輕軌 高鐵已經出在這裡 已經很成功的案例在這裡"},{"start":9233.834,"end":9258.914,"text":"我們今天就是要講嘛政府的效力永遠比不上民間嘛所以民間來做BOT我們都很歡迎國內國際的BOT我們都很歡迎今天不是說來一個委員代表誰今天國土的平均發展本來就該做的建設到現在都還沒有做這不是一個國會議員該提出來的嗎不是應該在院會來做處理的嗎為什麼"},{"start":9263.973,"end":9291.869,"text":"我聽到今天最大的一個笑話五千億在花蓮我到現在在哪裡請民進黨政府明天公佈一下五千億在哪裡五千億在哪裡剛剛都有錄音錄影公佈一下五千兩百億在哪裡天方夜譚執政了八年了五千兩百億在哪裡在這裡不要信口雌黃嘛不要把這裡當秀場嘛嚴肅一點嘛"},{"start":9294.707,"end":9323.043,"text":"我到現在為止都沒有指名任何一個人我希望我們以後在這裡討論是對視對不對謝謝院長我們希望能夠搭理性討論沒有關係謝謝傅坤祺總召的發言接下來我們請吳世堯委員發言我先講一下然後洪牧可委員準備然後林思敏委員跟黃...院長我很早就提你剛剛發言完我已經念過發言次序了稍微等一下柯總統好不好請吳世堯委員我等一下"},{"start":9324.864,"end":9346.33,"text":"有換一機會吧謝謝主席跟副總操澄清一下今天之所以會多次提到您的名字因為您是這三大法案的提案人所以一定都會提到傅君祺委員的提案那也因為今天討論的是您所提的三大法案當然就會提到您過去的一些觀點"},{"start":9347.63,"end":9367.817,"text":"民主就是對事不對人,我們對事不對人不是因為提到名字,您就認為提到名字就是人身攻擊我想這是兩碼子事,我們在這裡都非常理性的對話,對事不對人,這是民主應當有的基本的氣度第二個呢,剛剛我所提的這個資料,就是"},{"start":9368.777,"end":9369.818,"text":"委員會中心主義委員會中心主義"},{"start":9387.117,"end":9405.943,"text":"在交通委員會審查不管是3月25號、4月1號或4月17號委員會的時候就是只花加總起來10分50秒來打包協商所以這個部分沒有扭曲、沒有戲謔完全就是就事論事歡迎去掉委員會的議事記錄跟相關的錄影帶"},{"start":9408.703,"end":9433.088,"text":"第三個呢我也要回應也非常支持肯定剛剛黃國昌總召民眾黨團的立場所以我終整黃國昌總召的立場跟剛剛行政部門的共同回應其實也就是民進黨團對於這三個法案長久以來的立場第一個是我們需要有完整的交通專業的評估"},{"start":9435.188,"end":9458.327,"text":"重大的建設一定要有完整的交通專業評估我想這是民進黨跟民眾黨以及行政部門的共識第二件事情這麼大的巨額的國家資源的投入必須要有非常縝密的財政紀律的財務評估所以這是民進黨跟民眾黨以及行政部門共同的共識"},{"start":9459.795,"end":9483.422,"text":"那第三個主張就是本人一直認為民進黨團認為這三個法案在憲法的精神下行政權跟立法權各司其職的這個辯論的這一個終點是我一直在這裡試圖論述的那這一點是我到目前也應當是說是民進黨團的強烈的主張要論述給社會聽不能違反憲法第70條"},{"start":9489.404,"end":9510.234,"text":"不能違法大法官釋字第613號以及391號但這個部分是我不曉得民眾黨剛剛是黃總召沒有提到也許黃總召也認同這個部分但至少我們兩個黨團跟行政部門共同對於財政紀律以及交通專案評估都認為在這三個法案上顯然都沒有辦法具足"},{"start":9510.954,"end":9525.702,"text":"所以我在這裡非常大膽的冒昧的也就是我要跟院長建議就是既然這個前提本身都各黨的意見跟提案的國民黨團可能都有很大的漢格所以這三個案子幾乎是沒有辦法"},{"start":9526.582,"end":9526.862,"text":"主席"},{"start":9542.771,"end":9557.808,"text":"所以我希望這樣子的良性對話是非常好的我們就是就法案論法案就制度論製度大家輕聲細語大家不用咆哮不用很激動我都非常同意今天是一個很好的示範"},{"start":9558.809,"end":9558.889,"text":"主席"},{"start":9578.726,"end":9595.048,"text":"兩個小時過去了我覺得今天的協商我感到非常的失望失望的是我們今天出席的代表其實早有心有定見根本不是來協商我們立法院職權行使法第十二章黨團協商第六十八條"},{"start":9597.243,"end":9620.228,"text":"開宗明義強調為了協商議案跟解決爭議事項院長來召開黨團協商但是兩個小時過去了看直播的朋友或是我們在場會議室裡面的人大家有真的認為說今天坐在這邊的代表有想要解決爭議事項嗎就是各持己見所以你說五分鐘"},{"start":9621.408,"end":9643.75,"text":"有人已經嗆名了,要講30次50次,那還是一樣沒有想要解決,只想要講別人講自己的立場。再者,一開始開宗明義就講,就說這個是違憲,那如果說是違憲,後來又講說不合理,那我們想要請真的好好的說清楚,到底你的論點是什麼?"},{"start":9644.651,"end":9662.463,"text":"如果是違憲的話抱歉我們在場沒有一個人是大法官沒有人有資格講出這樣的話那如果說是不合理請提出來讓他變合理這也是為什麼我一直強調說今天如果說大家沒有版本只是各說各話的話那當然你根本沒有心來協商"},{"start":9666.054,"end":9684.237,"text":"剛剛有委員提到我的名字我特別講2021年交通委員會我質詢王國才部長我問的是說因為王國才部長先在媒體上講說環島高鐵不是夢我特別質詢他說那請教你的夢要花多少錢王國才部長答不出來"},{"start":9684.958,"end":9704.076,"text":"所以我才會講 我說財政紀律當然很重要財政紀律以及相關的配套說是當然很重要如果說你今天只在媒體上面質詢 你在媒體上面回應你只講了一個夢 但是你講不出你的夢要講多少錢的話那我怎麼有辦法相信你有辦法 有責任 有能力 有其誠能夠把這個夢完成"},{"start":9706.298,"end":9724.498,"text":"所以到現在我還是一樣所有的質詢都在我的腦子裡面我不用看資料所以今天大家不是來這邊演講比賽我要的是能不能夠實質的討論院長我想我今天為什麼開宗明義其實到目前為止我們都還沒有進入到條文"},{"start":9724.918,"end":9738.878,"text":"所以說其實到現在是到底是我們在確定我們的協商的程序還是我們已經進入到實質的我也沒有辦法確認但為什麼規定時間非常重要因為我們才能夠聚焦才能夠對焦嘛如果說沒有辦法聚焦跟對焦的話剛剛我算過"},{"start":9741.547,"end":9770.626,"text":"民進黨委員有在他的三分鐘五分鐘發言裡面有講到違憲、預算、立法邏輯、黨團人數、歷史、民主進步、攝影機、限制人數、公糧收購他所有的主題包山包海全都在他的三分鐘五分鐘講出來了那我們怎麼有辦法聚焦所以本席很誠摯的建議如果說今天我們有心大家針對這個條文來做真真正正的協商"},{"start":9771.687,"end":9795.012,"text":"在這條文裡面其實也都寫得很清楚一定是要安全無虞一定要專業評估一定是要國家能夠永續的經營才去做這一些其實在條文裡面都有不要裝睡的人叫不醒不要自己沒看到就以為上面沒有那最後我只講如果說"},{"start":9796.34,"end":9796.42,"text":"主席"},{"start":9815.646,"end":9833.121,"text":"有委員剛剛也講到說昨天村里長跟民意代表條例八個小時馬拉松到最後可以結束我覺得我最有資格講這個話因為我是從頭做到尾我是堅持到最後一個在場所有委員沒有一位除了我"},{"start":9833.968,"end":9834.028,"text":"主席"},{"start":9852.302,"end":9863.133,"text":"那就是竹條的精神如果今天沒有版本只要各說各話的話主席我認為真的這樣的協商可以宣告一個時間我們就做後續議事規則處理謝謝"},{"start":9865.218,"end":9892.956,"text":"謝謝胡某凱委員發言 接下來我們請林思敏委員發言黃國昌委員請準備好 謝謝主席院長 我忽然不見了院長柯總長我先不要打岔那我想首先我們對這個院長就議事的安排就是說剛才院長所提的幾個未來黨團協商的幾個意見我想我們認為我們要尊重院長"},{"start":9894.363,"end":9922.86,"text":"我們原本的過去就是我們的協商的一個遊戲規則就只講只有三長能夠參加那今天院長又更開放的對於相關的預算案或者相關的重要的議事開放說有幾個委員經過我們黨團的同意就可以來參加我想我們絕對非常支持這個院長做這個非常用心的一個安排"},{"start":9924.261,"end":9942.248,"text":"第二,我對於今天的整個協商程序其實這三個重要的法案我們現在從頭到尾做了兩個多小時我們聽到民進黨的委員就是心中早有定見你們就是認為這是違憲違憲的條例所以你們認為說要進入竹條"},{"start":9948.237,"end":9964.029,"text":"阿你們也不願意阿我想協商的目的是最後要達成什麼樣的一個目的就是要解決我們雙方的一個爭議嘛到目前為止我們都沒有任何的交集如何能夠達成共識阿所以我想"},{"start":9969.008,"end":9984.168,"text":"院長,我想我一直坐在這裡為什麼不想講話,就是想說看到底民進黨的委員你們到底心中在想什麼這種已經有訂建對特別條例一直在主張這個是違憲這個是不可行"},{"start":9985.373,"end":10000.265,"text":"而不願意很認真的來看我們真的這幾個條例我們講的是什麼那你如果有爭議對幾個條文你提出來嘛而不是一味的一開始就否定說啊這違憲啊這不可行啊"},{"start":10001.621,"end":10001.761,"text":"請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":10024.1,"end":10050.643,"text":"最後的結論上我是贊成剛剛林思敏委員的建議因為各個黨團針對這個議案其實都表達了基本的立場之所以再次舉手簡單有三個要點加以說明第一個要點是說針對於立法院職權刑事法裡面剛剛我所提出來的觀點以及"},{"start":10051.644,"end":10069.178,"text":"我說過我上次黨團協商的時候有提出來針對一個月協商冷凍期以及在一個月內有召集過協商就可以依照立法院職權行事法交院會來處理這件事情我相信在議事規則上面"},{"start":10073.228,"end":10100.963,"text":"正常的理解是這個樣子當然有立委有提出不一樣的看法每個人都可以有自己的看法但我相信最後就有關於議事規則的解釋跟操作我們尊重院長跟秘書長這一邊的一個專業上面的判斷第二個事情是說粉黨團剛剛所表達的立場我解釋得非常"},{"start":10102.242,"end":10126.787,"text":"說得非常的清楚了那我就不要再附屬那我只是不希望不希望有人把你自己想講的話塞到別人的嘴巴這樣就不好了我講話應該條理還算蠻清楚的全程都錄音錄影簡單的說我們支持交通建設那但是我們不贊成"},{"start":10127.927,"end":10151.994,"text":"用特別預算的方式來加以處理那要遵守財政紀律要進行可行性的評估這大概是我們黨團會議基本上面的四個原則因此針對這個議案的處理我們會提出我們的修正動議在這邊先跟院長做一個報告以及說明那至於說就是說以"},{"start":10153.835,"end":10179.527,"text":"特別條例的方式來進行有關於相關的建設跟處理其實大概偏差以前我們曾經通過的特別條例行政部門他在特別條例裡面所提出的預算額在立法院審議之後因為立法院裡面不同的黨團他們提案的版本而使得最後的金額增加"},{"start":10180.947,"end":10204.728,"text":"這個其實例子所在多有我也不需要去複述了行政跟立法兩者之間的界限在什麼地方我相信過去有非常非常多的例子都可以來參作不要過去的時候什麼相關的操作都沒有提出違憲之說等到今天遇到了才突然跑出連違憲都跑出來了那當然"},{"start":10207.29,"end":10214.099,"text":"每個人有每個人自己的想法我們接下來最後就按照規則來處理"},{"start":10215.786,"end":10238.116,"text":"最後就是說因為今天我要特別感謝王部長在你任內的辛勞離開前夕還參加協商我先表示對你過去辛勞的感謝只不過說我覺得王部長您今天在面對環島高鐵這個議題上在歷史上面可能要比較負責任一點"},{"start":10239.517,"end":10255.763,"text":"我大概看了環島高鐵相關的討論環島高鐵不是夢真的是您說的甚至在行政院在立法院的時候我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌他也是大力的贊同"},{"start":10257.003,"end":10279.866,"text":"大力的支持認為您這個主意非常的好所以我覺得今天或者是你另外用時間就環島高鐵你自己當初的這整個的想法你的理念我們的前行政院院長蘇貞昌都這麼大力的挺你那你心裡面所規劃的要怎麼樣來加以進行我覺得"},{"start":10281.387,"end":10302.717,"text":"跟台灣社會做一個說明對您個人的歷史定位會有幫助最後我也非常感謝你在剛剛提例子的時候終於說出來當初汐止那個南下的閘道是我爭取的因為你們當初你們執政的時候你們交通部的做法其實讓我蠻難過的"},{"start":10304.398,"end":10312.385,"text":"因為等到你們真的通車要剪彩的時候我人已經不在立法院了嘛但是"},{"start":10314.156,"end":10333.676,"text":"算了啦,我覺得講戈大偉三個字就太沉重了不過沒有關係啦,謝謝你今天的肯定那跟院長報告的是就是說因為等一下還有事情我黨團的立場已經很清楚的表明了不過為了表示對院長的尊重我剛剛也特別委請我們的吳春城"},{"start":10334.477,"end":10338.338,"text":"王國昌委員的發言接下來我們請柯建民、柯總召繼續發言王國昌委員要走了柯總召打個岔王部長你要不要等一下補充一下說明還是不用"},{"start":10360.316,"end":10363.999,"text":"我沒有什麼心思,我非常尊重你"},{"start":10390.592,"end":10407.983,"text":"剛才特別講一段說民主可貴,你自己講的話,可以理性對話。我覺得今天大家都非常理性在對話。即便胡文煦委員的名字被提出來,我想都是很平和的講。但是我持謀論,胡文煦委員比較有動氣,但是還好,我們都可以接受。"},{"start":10409.163,"end":10437.155,"text":"黃中委員今天也沒有咆哮這個都很清楚今天大家認真在講但是有的人就是說他故意就是不聽講的話我們沒有關係民主就是如此我現在硬來回答因為黃中委員說了一話但是我還是要講當然到最後一定會表決那表決起來我們一定輸這個我們都認定但是我要把很多話講清楚這才是重點"},{"start":10438.459,"end":10466.132,"text":"通常委員還是在堅持就是說除了委員會以後黨團協商然後像有的人常常有各黨團都有不來的時刻我們也有 各黨都有因為大家都知道後面還有一個院長的草案協商才是一個final才是結束所以立法院並不存在之前新法院沒有這樣規定就是說委員會協商以後一個月以後就要表決"},{"start":10467.353,"end":10488.114,"text":"那職業新網68條就寫什麼呢?職業新網71條就寫什麼?對不對?過去是一個月以後定期表決,過去四個月,後來滿久改了一個月。那這個一整個職業新網請大家看看。然後假如說委員會協商,像昨天委員會協商黃國東協商委員辦,職業新網協商委員辦,他走了。"},{"start":10491.396,"end":10513.671,"text":"委員就說送給韓院長協商,這個也不對,不是說他走我們就不能協商,他走是方便他的潛力。那這樣子搞法的話,假如說,已經實質上是要沒收院長的潛力了。委員協商一個月以後,結果到院會表決,韓院長你這個位置坐得下去嗎?"},{"start":10514.912,"end":10536.722,"text":"也從游說漢院長到最後的樓西昆院長每一個人都遵守那這個老闆學長從哪裡來的呢?從1993年到1996年1999年因為立法院沒有遊戲規則所以游說漢院院長最大的功能是什麼?他最值得敬佩的地方在他任內到1999年1月12號"},{"start":10539.303,"end":10560.038,"text":"馬國衛無法已經立下來,就是我們今天在奉行的有許規則。但是整個民主實踐大家都是很認定,表決書就書,沒有什麼話講,但是要把話講清楚。所以黃國大委員他所講的說,他理解那以後就,院長你有沒有什麼功能啊?"},{"start":10561.249,"end":10579.507,"text":"你也不必在這裡採訪,人家都到院會直接就表決了。因為原來不是這樣,大家在這裡這麼久以來,包括福音崎委員、到黃國昌委員都曾經在這裡發言,楊瀕師妹也來過,何孟凱也來過,為什麼今天大家突然要把遊戲規改掉,把你的行李架空了?"},{"start":10582.001,"end":10598.317,"text":"那這個還走得下去嗎?那民主是結束啦!這是一個非常嚴肅的事情。變成從上次草野鄉、武漢、吳蘇遙、我們還沒從中介雄,一直在捍衛你院長的權益,這是一個非常嚴肅的事情。這第一點我真的有訪問張委員所談的。"},{"start":10601.636,"end":10605.6,"text":"但是他講說他要提對案,他從口中裡面不講出違憲兩個字,我不知道他在講什麼。"},{"start":10614.318,"end":10634.485,"text":"他絕對贊成用行政部門來編列預算,把這個行政部門編列預算。這要提對案,那就是說他要把這個寫在法條裡面嘛。寫在法條裡面就是你從特別預算再去規定行政,要求行政部門要怎麼做,那當然是違憲啦。各位,新聞70條。"},{"start":10636.783,"end":10653.217,"text":"繞環4-264-391-585-520-613"},{"start":10653.755,"end":10670.269,"text":"我們任何一個當立法委員都要很正確的有基本的憲法及公法的知識否則的話你哪一本都沒有用哪一本都沒有用違憲的部分就是違憲請看完以後我們這幾個剛才我們講的幾個大方式是包括"},{"start":10676.314,"end":10700.911,"text":"憲法規定、立法院之前的規定、行政院院長之前的規定,看完以後,我們可能比較能夠順利走下去。至少你看憲法政策條例第3條就好了。總統那名行政院院長來立法院被刑以作私人報告。他有行政院院長有這個職責。立法院是要執行之前。"},{"start":10702.472,"end":10729.244,"text":"然後立法委員：憲法長對立法委員在立法三條看得很清楚是議決嘛 議決法律案、預算案等案嘛這些都憲法長都規定很清楚然後你說我們有訂建我們不是有訂建 是你有訂建我希望說你回去今天我們結案到這裡要表決然後我希望把話講清楚再來表決"},{"start":10730.504,"end":10756.641,"text":"你也不要急,反正你要這麼表決,我們一定輸。當然事後違憲,當然有事先程序,但是有事後違憲,道理之名沒有關係,你也是如法律的,你也是同樣的反對違憲的,你說這合憲性,沒有關係,大家回去看清楚。黃國昌也是一樣,他那個沒有違憲性。講了半天,我不知道黃國昌的主張是什麼?"},{"start":10758.902,"end":10786.173,"text":"這一點我要很清楚告訴各位另外就是說我去委員主要說是華人三將也不是五將也不要誤解我們沒有的事情喔那林志明委員我們都是心無限時的武漾甘納橋你應該贊成吧2015年的時候我對行政院提案希望行政院能夠蓋武漾甘納橋那時候行政院長是誰是馬文志國那年我要飛機先機"},{"start":10787.694,"end":10814.859,"text":"老實說很清楚,在M1跟我們講得很清楚,很講得很清楚,就連高雅橋都很重要,他們能夠支持。然後對於新湖縣市,所有的縣市都趕在此一路,那個也要解決,交通問題要解決,如果罵土地解決的話,我幹兩條橋都無所謂。但是我們都是用建議的,我也沒有弄一個特別一項要求行政政策,我知道那是違憲的。"},{"start":10816.337,"end":10839.042,"text":"五合二橋從2015我去選舉到現在走了八年經過肯定評估、反評三個月才定案都還沒開始施工所以我們今天講你環島高鐵乃至於你的速發快你要從這個整個公法上的理論包括整個行政作為上面幫立法院能夠做什麼事情大家去看清楚"},{"start":10840.382,"end":10859.944,"text":"十年要完成所謂花東快十年要完成環島高鐵環島高鐵也可以 它有秘密條例也可以 也可以啊 像環資商的時候可以啊並不是你那種特別條例叫政府要多少都有完成那你就徹底剝奪了行政權啊 這很清楚吧"},{"start":10861.045,"end":10881.42,"text":"市民委員你是不是法律人呢?那吳文綺他不是法律人,他可以怎麼講我們可以接受至少你是法律人,黃國昌也是法律人所以剛才吳文綺講了一句話我們兩個人不可以坐在這裏不講話他台灣弄什麼輕軌,這是高鐵"},{"start":10885.581,"end":10901.129,"text":"臺北縣、新北市有沒有輕軌?我們現在你日間在新竹、竹北之間有輕軌,你有贊成嗎?所有人都贊成嗎?所以我們講的就是說,你有沒有人對於預算、對於政策有建議權?"},{"start":10902.75,"end":10916.697,"text":"主被動的關係大家搞清楚主動性是在行政部門被動我們是能夠監督我們是督促這是潛力分離原則道理致命的所以我今天我很遺憾就是說"},{"start":10918.098,"end":10944.545,"text":"我們講了半天,當然也許各位覺得我們講的很適合或是覺得不夠明白我希望今天回去大家把所有大部分事件人,幾個事件人全看五六零、五八五、六一三、二六四、三九一那個文字大部分事件文字雖然有一點但你看結論就知道,你好好看一遍"},{"start":10945.405,"end":10956.279,"text":"尤其是把我思維的領銜在立法院、到憲法院去實現的,是出來增加危險。我們在立法院的時間,大家總是在為國家做事。"},{"start":10960.684,"end":10976.584,"text":"三十年我在這個場域裡面從一個完全陌生的環境到我會花很多時間去研究法案以及憲政體制的關係以及國家應該如何進步這是我們的職責今天在歷史關鍵時刻我不希望"},{"start":10978.105,"end":10998.874,"text":"我們立法院、然後大家不管現在的體制尤其未來要談的就是所謂的立法院執政新法、行使法有沒有扣錢、有沒有違憲,都是應該好好討論這是民主在一個非常危險的今天變形上面我希望、我希望院長"},{"start":11000.254,"end":11019.244,"text":"再讓他們回去看看法律,當然憲法條文跟事件文在論也沒有關係,到最後表決我們一定輸,我們認的。但是我們要好好講清楚,我們希望有對話空間,因為我們講的,連法律人都在否定我們,我都覺得很奇怪。"},{"start":11019.924,"end":11043.254,"text":"因為黃國昌委員走了我很遺憾他是法學博士我當然很希望跟他執求對決跟他好好辯論但是呢很遺憾他又走了我希望只有今天協商不管怎麼樣我們就在這裡執求對決了院長我知道你一直有理由困難"},{"start":11045.316,"end":11060.114,"text":"沒有困難當事你今天所提的有些觀念我是能夠接受但是我們稍微謹慎一下我們今天協商似乎不會有那個結論但是請各位回去看完了事先文以後看完憲法以後當然憲法只是那幾條而已"},{"start":11061.395,"end":11074.803,"text":"那你只要去看政策條例第三條所以這看完我們再好好討論可能也比較適合一些不要就這樣來表決表決你們會贏那贏的表決我有憲法其實目前也無法執行啊"},{"start":11080.646,"end":11085.752,"text":"我希望大家都有歷史上的責任,也不要說你要紅包裝夾起來,什麼事情都可以做。"},{"start":11097.746,"end":11122.705,"text":"在這個提案的原因不是有所不盡是因為隱釋這個法案的提案人我們這個法案我們包括環島高鐵、經濟委員會、財政委員會都沒有來類似都沒有來參加所以剛才院長所提的一些東西我們應該好好再來討論以上我是很誠懇表示這意見雖然我知道韓院長你今天算很熱鬧來感謝"},{"start":11126.141,"end":11143.993,"text":"我特別跟柯總召補充報告一下剛才我的意思是說您發言完畢因為多次提到交通部王部長我擔心他有心裡的話要講一些所以我才特別結果你不是不是結果你誤會了我說我在玩什麼遊戲不是的我是覺得行政官坐在這邊"},{"start":11145.054,"end":11159.555,"text":"多次被委員提到他一定也想有一些話要表達所以我說你發言完我們請王國財部長補充說明我想我應該沒有處理錯吧所以你怎麼 我說你先知道我講錯話我跟妳抱歉但是我常常被安排到"},{"start":11160.516,"end":11165.44,"text":"王部長今天幫他在任 王部長大概在一個禮拜以後 下禮拜二會大家能夠畢業典禮所以應該要好好講 王部長你請你講一個鐘頭"},{"start":11176.73,"end":11179.351,"text":"我只是要跟你澄清,你發言完我請交通部王部長補充,結果你一直說我在玩什麼把戲,我再跟你講一下,我們請王部長補充說明"},{"start":11197.063,"end":11225.8,"text":"我覺得環島高速鐵路因為從我的專業來看必須有前瞻性所以我覺得環島高速鐵路它跟台鐵會來互補還有互為備援所以對於東部也很重要但是我當時是提說要逐段完成不是一次所以現在我是覺得我們現在南沿屏東另外一個到宜蘭有三個可行性報告要做第一個就是屏東、潮州、台東"},{"start":11227.022,"end":11227.543,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11240.629,"end":11257.559,"text":"有提到就是潮州要到台東要繞過大武山,所以也有路廊的課題。所以我是覺得這個部分是至少我當部長還有包括蘇院長的共識是可以逐段來完成。但是我"},{"start":11258.459,"end":11261.682,"text":"謝謝王部長,非常負責任的說明,非常感謝接下來高副主委有什麼要補充的沒有?"},{"start":11277.312,"end":11279.433,"text":"我想邀請主席表達對於協商秩序的維護"},{"start":11304.759,"end":11324.439,"text":"副坤祺總召在協商的時候是在戴耳機的,我不知道他是在聽音樂還是什麼,因為這樣子大家的對話,他這樣充耳不聞,這樣是不好的,也不尊重在場的委員跟官員的說明。他現在也離場,但他剛剛就是戴著耳機,我覺得這樣不好,因為我們都想要互相論述,互相對話。"},{"start":11326.421,"end":11349.434,"text":"黃國昌總召現在是去上節目了,我也覺得立委的職責就是這麼重要的法案,應該坐在這裡審查完,當然有我們吳淳澄委員來代理。那我覺得回到我三個點,第一個回應一下剛剛洪孟凱委員說的,今天如果在這裡有既定的看法,這沒有錯啊,因為"},{"start":11350.703,"end":11364.218,"text":"對就是對不對就是不對對於任何政策的立場這個沒有模糊的地帶那您剛在問哪裡不合憲哪裡不合理我都已經把法條說給您聽了不合憲有憲法第七十條大法官釋字613號"},{"start":11365.8,"end":11385.745,"text":"施字391,我再一次說明,那不合理的部分呢,剛剛行政部門也多次的說明了,交通評估、專業的評估以及財務的試算的評估,還有用特別預算的方式也不合宜,所以這就是不合理的地方。所以我再一次說明,今天坐在這裡,各黨團當然會有他的政策觀點。"},{"start":11388.174,"end":11415.389,"text":"第二 因為黃國昌總召離場了 我可能要說給吳村城委員聽因為剛剛民眾黨的立場是說黃國昌總召說得很清楚 不支持特別預算也認為建設不能夠違反財政紀律 也一定要進行可行性評估那如果這樣的話 那這個法案明天如果表決 是不可以支持的呀"},{"start":11416.431,"end":11432.904,"text":"因為如果明天在表決的過程剛剛講的樣樣像像黃總統都講得很好聽這個不支持這個不支持所以我要說的是如果不支持我們原則方向是一樣的不支持那就不要在明天的表決裡頭又放水了"},{"start":11433.504,"end":11455.771,"text":"或者是說要提對岸但對岸可能又是一種放水的手段如果這樣的話我覺得這個跟黃總召剛剛所說的幾大原則可能會有很大的漢格所以這種兩手的策略說得好聽做的是另一套我是認為其其於不可所以春城大哥您是可以對話的人我要把這樣子的訊息轉達給您聽因為社會都在觀察"},{"start":11459.693,"end":11485.713,"text":"黃總召說的不可支持的理由ABCD四個原則可是明天如果表決又支持了我覺得這樣可能比較難以交代第三件事情我想基於立法委員的職權我們行政立法互有分工如果就這個議案上一個立委可以行使的權利是什麼很可惜我現在要講副總召又離開了我真的很想說給他聽希望他有看直播不是聽耳機而已"},{"start":11487.094,"end":11509.809,"text":"立委可以行使的叫做預算的建議權,對不對?我們可以在委員會提案,可以在院會提案,也可以在審查預算的時候做出預算的提案的建議。這是立法委員賦予,憲法賦予給我們的立法委員問政的工具跟手段。我想私民委員都認同。"},{"start":11510.709,"end":11526.899,"text":"所以這就是立委對於一個預算的建議案這是我們合憲可以行使的所以不是逾越了行政權自己用一個特別條例的立法來要求行政部門編列什麼預算這完全就是不合憲"},{"start":11528.24,"end":11551.056,"text":"所以立法委員可以善用的預算建議權我作為立委雖然只有九年的時間但是我推動教育部的新宿舍運動我也是透過我的質詢透過預算的建議權然後要求行政部門去做我爭取文化部的文化禮金也是透過我的建議權透過質詢提案然後行政部門就可以做"},{"start":11551.916,"end":11579.565,"text":"這個是走正道的一個方法立法行政互有分工我也要回應剛剛有委員提到說過去的基隆河整治條例也是特別條例沒有錯因為它是特別條例它是一個area的一個河川的整治基隆河的整治水域的整治的特別條例是馬一九執政的時候陳水扁執政的時候都有提過它是一個擴大區域而不是單一建設"},{"start":11581.215,"end":11589.292,"text":"所以把過去的法制面、經驗面都講清楚可以就是可以,不可以就是不可以在憲法的原則下"},{"start":11591.175,"end":11591.295,"text":"主席"},{"start":11617.784,"end":11641.485,"text":"這個條文不像國民黨講的說我連看都不看我每一個條文都看第二個我的重點是不要想到什麼做什麼尤其是重大的一個交通的一個建設也不要去外行再去領導內行那把國發會來變成一個主責的機關這個我更反對這個會笑死人尤其是各位去把它想想看"},{"start":11643.57,"end":11660.78,"text":"過去的交通建設裏面,你說像我們這種農業線的,尤其是最南端的過去政府在縱北傾南的,我個人就絕對不會去反對建設,我在民進黨團也不會去反對建設,但是用這樣的一個方式,我就反對。"},{"start":11664.301,"end":11670.022,"text":"我認為應該是,剛剛王部長所講的,用個案去做一個推動,叫不來啦。該做可行性評估就要去做可行性評估啦。譬如說我剛剛所提到的,這個高鐵就不會從高雄直接跳到台東啦。沒有到我屏東來,不會到台東啦。那應該去個案去把它做一個推動啦。"},{"start":11690.967,"end":11703.155,"text":"那你如果說去講到整個公路建設的部分我想這個部分更應該借助於行政部門的專業要經過幾個縱股要經過幾個原民部落可行性評估裡面還要再去做環評這些都不能去省略了我最後舉個例子我們本來一直在講說我上次在質詢"},{"start":11717.964,"end":11725.726,"text":"高鐵到南延到屏東我質詢毛志國的時候我還記得很清楚我說日本都已經在用磁幅列車了我們還在高鐵結果現在日本他從品川到名古屋這一段他因為在靜岡縣環境影響評估而沒有辦法去做一個開工也就是說本來2027年他的磁幅列車預期就要開通了"},{"start":11747.473,"end":11766.09,"text":"現在整個建設停下來那我的想法就很簡單啦你這個環評的部分你前面的部分你都不先去做然後就先框定說你幾年報告給完成不通啦 甚思啦民眾黨提到的那個財政紀律我就覺得就很像樣啦這個我相信各個政黨裡面都必須要去堅持啦"},{"start":11771.693,"end":11794.945,"text":"剛才提到明天就是因為明天要表決所以今天我們才要協商希望協商大家有一個結果出來有一個圓滿的大家各個三個政黨大家可以找到一個方向"},{"start":11796.486,"end":11809.979,"text":"最重要一點是這三件事情環島高鐵、花東快速道路、國道六號東延花蓮這是東部發展的問題我不曉得這三件事情到底該不該做"},{"start":11811.275,"end":11836.797,"text":"該不該做以民眾黨的立場覺得該做那怎麼做再說嘛就是該做我們要對我們東部的發展該做但是呢民眾黨的立場當然該做但是可行性評估這個不是我們立法院能夠評估我們在場我們幾個三黨我們怎麼評估這當然行政部門要評估嘛然後當然國家財政"},{"start":11838.018,"end":11855.728,"text":"的考量嘛 這都是民眾黨主張務實理性科學嘛 這一定是要做的嘛 但是呢我還是講就是國民黨的版本太急切 很急切 但是可以討論用心是好的 用心是好嘛 為東部發展嘛"},{"start":11857.544,"end":11884.495,"text":"對,但是呢,方法我們就是協商就是要來討論這事情嘛但是我看了民進黨我們今天的開會喔就從頭到尾就我阻擋批判啦我想這是國人在透過這個鏡頭當中看到了那所以我們一事無成嘛,我們花了好長的時間喔那對柯總召我真的非常的佩服喔你這種講功夠的功力喔,這個可以沒樣事情喔"},{"start":11887.682,"end":11892.434,"text":"其實聽起來是蠻有趣的但是不一定有道理"},{"start":11894.369,"end":11921.155,"text":"但是你還是說不清楚你發言大概快占到我們一半的時間但是我還是沒有得到一個到底這三件事情該不該做所以我覺得就是說我們還是要對整個東部發展這個是何等重大的事情當然你不能太匆忙那應該要開個國事會議大家來好好討論我們的東部發展好不好"},{"start":11924.787,"end":11927.311,"text":"謝謝吳春成委員 我們不是一事無成 我們還有吳春成"},{"start":11929.433,"end":11956.742,"text":"各位黨團幹部,麻煩簡短二樣不是啦,很多人都針對我,當然我這樣才輕易問起,我也必須回答但我也很希望,我們能夠有一個很好的對焦的講法該不該做?沒有人敢說不該做這都很簡單的,就是花園要發展,要有一個安全路,沒有人能否定但是要如何做?"},{"start":11957.851,"end":11976.965,"text":"這是一個問題,國家財政紀律的問題,所以今天委員長我今天講一下,我今天一直在講不願期待的講就是說民運黨的黃國昌,他繞了半天在包牌講他財政紀律,然後他說要提案,我不知道他怎麼去提這個案子"},{"start":11977.685,"end":12003.335,"text":"他沒有辦法正視到核心問題就是在憲法上面的規範所以今天我在這裡講我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭這是一個憲政時刻這是非常嚴肅的我們在立法院 任何一個立法委員 乃至於官員只要沒有憲法去官法的觀念的話你做出任何違憲的判決的處理那就都不會通嘛"},{"start":12003.915,"end":12003.995,"text":"主席"},{"start":12023.89,"end":12049.304,"text":"執行局是我的問題所謂的藐視國會罪很多事情各位官員包括在民營大家離開了他們藐視國會罪黃部長好他們藐視國會罪好成立的時候他跟你拍拖的時候說你不可以講違憲要不然藐視國會罪你三年徒刑所以很多很嚴肅的事情院長我最後要講說我剛才一直跑去趕跟你講"},{"start":12050.799,"end":12067.549,"text":"我只要跟大家講,不應該明天表決,就沒有所謂明天表決的問題,也跟法務院開講,法務院跟法務院講,法務院跟民事院講,我說你,我們下一次針對憲法上的問題,我們來好好針對憲法。那我七條,七條要寫到幾年,那五條八條寫到幾年,五條九條寫到幾年。"},{"start":12072.072,"end":12098.055,"text":"有三條怎麼規定?這些條文怎麼規定?大方幾個市縣?很清楚,五八五二零、六一三、二六四、三一九。大家回去看完的時候,我們對憲法上面的規定,我們先有一個基本的對焦,否則的話,表決,一定會贏,但是贏也不好。維修中心怎麼叫行政部門去執行呢?那以後大家,"},{"start":12099.216,"end":12117.068,"text":"請起校友,婦女可以提兩兆,我也可以提一兆,林士民讓桃竹苗那裡衝著,有三兆也不行。這行政權就要交出來,這責任真正在哪裡?所以這個事很嚴肅,大家要面對這個問題。不是說我今天反對什麼建設,所有建設我都贊成。"},{"start":12118.149,"end":12145.878,"text":"更加有錢可以去幹很多建設,讓人民便捷、安全,這個是理所當然的,天經地義的,對不對?好不好?所以今天,院長,你是在歷史時刻的時候,你要有所堅持、有所理想,並不是在所謂哪一個人的指揮下,我相信你是一個我們都走過同一時代的人,我跟你講過一句話,我們都到頂了,"},{"start":12147.647,"end":12158.395,"text":"我這一切做完也要到老闆鄉我希望我們生命移民最成熟的時候也做國家這是我們共同的期待好不好"},{"start":12159.314,"end":12183.03,"text":"謝謝總召很感性的一段讓我想到林爵銘與七爵別書謝謝我再一次謝謝我們列席的總統國防部長還有防護組委謝謝列席的官員也謝謝各位黨團幹部開了兩個半小時我們做下面的結論各黨團對本次研商相關法案均已充分發言本次會議到此為止現在散會再一次感謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15899","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15899","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea5da7963983a35b0d90a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be414625d3d33d9832c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n五、繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n六、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n七、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n八、繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n九、繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十、繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十一、繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十三、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-09T13:07:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16649,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法"},{"start":2612.211,"end":2631.116,"text":"財務資源處檢任基政傅珍琦、原住民經濟發展處處長宋利儒、國家科學技術委員會自然科學永續研究發展處副處長陳曉琳、"},{"start":2640.194,"end":2667.245,"text":"國家發展委員會社會發展處專門委員施乃元行政院主計處公務預算處專門委員邱碧珠基金預算處專門委員戴琴芳行政院人事總處"},{"start":2669.901,"end":2695.35,"text":"主編人力處專門委員谷炎玲好,謝謝。好。好,那我來補充報告我們現場的委員有高進素美我們的總召,謝謝。還有我們王美惠委員。好,習宇珍委員。好,謝謝。"},{"start":2702.725,"end":2713.889,"text":"好,跟各位委員報告本日議程所內的法案。閱以本會113年3月13號,第11屆第1次第6次會議,審打結束。本會以3月25日舉辦一場公聽會,並以3月28第8次的會議的結議,請海洋委員會以一個月內,"},{"start":2732.316,"end":2756.589,"text":"辦理五場公聽會災案是以4月29日以第八次的會議決議要求新增一場公聽會。現公聽會程序亦已完成本日時進行條文審查,以求立法之完善遭言。"},{"start":2762.388,"end":2766.352,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案第15次的會議。好,謝謝。報告委員會,現在進行法案審查,請先讀討論。"},{"start":2786.278,"end":2797.022,"text":"海洋保育法草案第18案等18案所有的條文修正動議互代結議請一併先讀請先讀"},{"start":2810.658,"end":2814.942,"text":"委員你要提案說明哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦哦"},{"start":2833.085,"end":2835.746,"text":"國內屬於海島型國家,在進行周邊海域的保育工作,這是有助於促進海洋永續利用以及海洋權益的發展,這也符合國際上的趨勢。"},{"start":2850.911,"end":2868.083,"text":"在世界潮流的影響之下我國更應該要運用臺灣原住民族6000年以上的海洋保育的經驗然後藉由原住民對自然的理解來一起協助政府瞭解7D"},{"start":2868.283,"end":2869.284,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":2886.341,"end":2900.998,"text":"因此本席就擬具海洋保育法草案規範相關政策的制定還有區域的劃設。主管機關必須要會同原住民族中央主管機關以及其他有關的機關。"},{"start":2905.003,"end":2933.108,"text":"至於審議會的組成原住民等等民間的人士的代表的比例應該要達三分之二用來確保我國的海洋保育政策是符合我國的民情並且有效的達到本法立法的目的我們希望立這個法也不要忽視原住民族對海洋的知識也不要忽視長期以來靠海"},{"start":2934.388,"end":2935.349,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":2967.081,"end":2971.583,"text":"現在宣讀其餘個案以及修正動議與附帶決議。"},{"start":2994.392,"end":3011.716,"text":"法名稱均同行政院提案第一章章明均同行政院提案第一條委員羅天偉等18人提案同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案文徐宇珍等20人提案與保育海洋生物多樣性後面增加合理利用海洋生物資源等文字其餘同行政院提案委員莊銳雄等20人提案"},{"start":3012.176,"end":3038.639,"text":"第一條,為保護海洋生態環境、促進海洋生物多樣性之保育及富裕協調並促進海洋保護區之規劃及執行推動海洋保育教育、特制定本法台灣民眾黨黨團提案,增加達成以自然為本的氣候邊遷解決方案文字其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第一條,為保護海洋生態環境、增進海洋生物多樣性及其保育與富裕促進海洋保護區之整合規劃與執行以及推動海洋保育教育、特制定本法"},{"start":3039.68,"end":3051.728,"text":"委員高金素梅等22人提案第一條為保護海洋生態環境保育與賦予海洋生物多樣性促進海洋保護區域之整合規劃及執行並推動海岸保育教育工作特制定本法其餘個案均同請政院提案"},{"start":3053.533,"end":3080.054,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人提案第二條國家海洋保育目標為中華民國119年保護至少三分之一的海域。前項海域指中華民國領海外界線以內水域面積及金門、馬祖與太平島禁限制水域。委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第二條中央主管機關應明定我國海洋保育目標及其成並定期檢討之海洋保護區及置化設計管轄以中華民國領海臨界區禁止水域限制水域專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層之海域為範圍。"},{"start":3082.056,"end":3107.734,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〉第二條,第一項同委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案第二條,第二項為前項所稱海域適用範圍為中華民國領海及中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸教成法第二條所維護之範圍,為高精素酶等22人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案第二條,為符合國際海洋保護趨勢促進海洋永續利用,政府應將國家海洋保育目標設定為中華民國119年前保護至少30%的海域,前項海域指中華民國專"},{"start":3111.517,"end":3133.656,"text":"第二條委員羅廷偉等18人臺灣民眾黨黨團委員高金素梅等22人提案第三條同委員楊秋英等20人提案第三條其餘各案均同行政院提案第三條委員徐宇貞等20人提案增加第九款第十款文字分別為九漁業人指漁業權人入漁權人及或其他依漁業法經營漁業之人"},{"start":3134.296,"end":3151.198,"text":"使漁業從業人指漁船船員及其他為漁業人採捕或養殖水產凍植物之人其餘同行政院提案委員羅廷偉等18人提案第四條第四款倒數第二項文字為因化社核心區緩衝區及永續利用區其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案之第四條"},{"start":3152.179,"end":3179.218,"text":"委員洪森漢等16人提案第五款為五、海洋庇護區只基於海洋生態系統具生物多樣性價值而有特別保護之必要一本法所劃定之海洋保護區並得以核心區緩衝區及永續利用區進行分區管理其餘同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四條第八款為八、海洋保育突發事件系指事件發生時無法預知非屬循環性且對海洋生態系統有不利影響之餘其餘同委員楊瓊瓊等20人提案之第四條"},{"start":3180.158,"end":3194.939,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第四款為四海洋保護區指各目的事業主管機關一本法或其他法律劃定之海域與其皮靈之陸域以達到保護生物多樣性特殊自然景觀或永續利用之生態資源第六款第七款分別為六核心區"},{"start":3195.74,"end":3220.669,"text":"位長期保護海洋生物生態環境生物多樣性並提供學術研究因嚴格保護並限制開發利用行為與人員進入所劃設之區域稀緩沖區指靈接或環繞於核心區針對人為活動有所管理限制以保護核心區可作為研究發展之區域其他具有生態潛力區域的獨立劃設其餘同行政院提案委員皋金素美等22人提案第4條及其餘個案均同行政院提案"},{"start":3221.909,"end":3249.887,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人提案第5條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第5條委員羅美玲等17人委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第5條第5條中央主管機關應訂定國家海洋保育綱領明定總體規劃與推動海洋保育策略與機制報警行政院核定後實施前向國家海洋保育綱領應每5年至少檢討一次臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第5條為達成海洋生物多樣性永續發展及因應氣候變遷之目標中央主管機關應召開國家海洋保育審議議會"},{"start":3251.468,"end":3267.798,"text":"並制定國家海洋保育綱領。其內容應包括海洋保護育整體規劃原則推動海洋保護育等治理策略與機制。海洋保護區每年化身目標及海洋保育類動植物保育服務目標報請行政院核定後實施,作為各級政府海洋保護育海洋治理及規劃之依據。"},{"start":3269.279,"end":3286.157,"text":"前項國家海洋保育綱領因每5年至少檢討一次國家海洋保育綱領制訂定及檢討因公開展覽30日及舉行聽證會中央主管機關每年應編寫海洋保育成果報告書內容因科學數據為基礎至少包含前一年海洋保育類動植物保育賦育成果目標達成清醒"},{"start":3287.697,"end":3301.468,"text":"及海洋保護區劃設目標達成請行報請行政院核定後公開上網未能達成每年保育賦育及海洋保護區劃設目標行政院應命中央主管機關於三個月內提報改善計劃與行政院核定改善計劃應蒐集學者、專家、民間團體及公眾運監作為檢討修正參考"},{"start":3304.87,"end":3325.043,"text":"第一項審議會之委員為五己職,其設置辦法由中央主管機關訂定之。其中專家、學者、民間保育團體及原住民等不具官方身份之代表不得少於委員總人數三分之二。第一項委員之組成選任海洋保育綱領之具體審議程序。第二項檢討及聽證程序等相關辦法由中央主管機關訂定,報請行政院核定後實施。第四條"},{"start":3327.711,"end":3354.943,"text":"人提案前段文字為未達成海洋生物多樣性及因應氣候變遷之目標其餘同行政院提案委員徐宇珍等20人提案增加第二項文字為前項海洋保護區之整合規劃及執行由主管機關會同有關主管機關定之其餘同行政院提案委員莊瑞雄等20人提案中段增加依照國家海洋政策白皮書提供海洋保育整合規劃以作為海洋保育等治理策略之依據文字其餘同行政院提案委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第五條"},{"start":3355.503,"end":3365.334,"text":"提案﹖增加第一項國家應致力於海洋保育工作推廣正確海洋保育知識促使國民積極落實海洋保育措施其餘同行政院提案委員羅廷偉等18人提案第6條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第6條臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第6條"},{"start":3370.56,"end":3386.347,"text":"主管機關及各目的事業主管機關之海洋或海岸利用行為開發許可程序各種海洋保育措施保護海洋生物棲息環境及化停海洋保護區時應考量生態系統途徑以自然為本的解決方案累積效益預警原則最佳可得科學資訊等有利於海洋保育之原則。"},{"start":3388.088,"end":3415.656,"text":"前向開發行為之環境影響評估或環境社會文化影響評估應納入藍炭生態系之氣候變遷風險評估委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第5條主管機關應採取各種海洋保育措施保護海洋生物棲息環境及劃定海洋保護區時應考量海洋生物多樣性以確保海洋生物物種籍生態系之多樣性委員高金素梅等20人提案第5條及其餘個案均同行政院提案第二章張明個案張明均同行政院提案"},{"start":3416.616,"end":3425.123,"text":"第五條,委員莊瑞雄等20人提案,第11款改為,十一其他經中央主管機關認定有效保育措施之區域其餘同行政院提案第一項。"},{"start":3426.758,"end":3445.747,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第7條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第7條委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第6條第一項同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第7條第二項同行政院提案第5條第二項委員蘇巧慧等16人委員羅美玲等17人委員高金世美等20人提案第6條及其餘個案均同行政院提案"},{"start":3446.627,"end":3467.592,"text":"議員第6條委員王美惠等17議員提案第三項後段增訂並於規劃及檢討階段提供必要諮詢後召開公聽會納入相關利害關係人專家學者公民團體之意見主管機關應具體回復涉及多數不同利益之人或多數不同行政機關權限者應經公開及聽證程序文字其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3468.272,"end":3494.98,"text":"委員鄭天才等19人提案第一項第二項同行政院提案第三項為第一項整體海洋保護區管理政策方針應尊重維護保存傳統用海智慧等海洋文化資產保障與傳承原住民族傳統用海文化及權益第四項第五項第六項同行政院提案之第三四五項委員徐宇貞等20人提案第二項增加第六款文字為六海洋保護區原漁業人漁業從業人之照顧原第六款一列第七款其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3495.72,"end":3522.134,"text":"委員莊瑞雄等20人提案第一項前段增加一國家海洋政策白皮書文字增加第六項第七項分別為中央主管機關於訂定第二項第三款第三款第二款第三款及第五款時應邀請專家學者有關機關代表相關民間團體相代表相關法人代表及其他適當相關人員召開公聽會並製作會議記錄及公開之辦理前項業務之相關事項辦法由中央主管機關定之其與同行政院提案委員羅廷瑞等18人提案臺灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3525.116,"end":3553.413,"text":"提案第8條同委員楊秋瑩等20人提案第8條委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第7條中央主管機關一國家海洋保育綱領因會商有關機關訂定國家海洋保護區管理計劃報請行政院核定後實施其變更事宜統前項計劃內容應包括下列事項一計劃範圍二計劃目標三海洋保護區之分類及分級四海洋保護區之規劃及管理措施五海洋生態保護與整體規劃措施六整體海洋調查管理及監測七海洋保護區相關措施對利害關係人影響"},{"start":3554.253,"end":3582.575,"text":"八、海洋保護區之檢討及成效評估。九、其他與海洋保護區管理有關之事項。指轄市縣市政府亦國家海洋保育綱領得就前項第一款至第五款提出指轄市縣市海洋保護區管理計劃。請中央主管機關審議核定後納入國家海洋保護區管理計劃。海洋保護區橫跨指轄市縣市轄區者由各該指轄市縣市主管機關協商擬定。報中央主管機關核定必要時由中央主管機關協調各相關指轄市縣市主管機關共同擬定或指定由其中一指轄市縣市"},{"start":3584.797,"end":3602.532,"text":"計劃產生競合時應報由中央主管機關協調協調不誠實報請得報請行政院決定之第一項整體海洋保護局管理計劃應每5年至少檢討一次委員高俊素梅等22人提案第7條第一項前段修正委中央主管機關應會同原住民中央主管機關及其他有關機關其餘同行政院提案第6條"},{"start":3603.493,"end":3633.033,"text":"委員吳清明等18人提案第1、2、3項同行政院提案第四項為中央主管機關於訂定第二項、第三款及第五款事項時應提供必要諮詢後邀請專家學者、有關機關代表、相關民間團體代表、相關法人代表及其他適當人員召開公聽會並因作成會議記錄及公開之辦理前項業務之相關事項辦法由中央主管機關定之第五、六項同行政院提案之第四、五項委員羅美玲等17人提案第七條與委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第八條及其餘個案均同行政院提案"},{"start":3633.974,"end":3650.334,"text":"第七條委員吳麗華等16人提案第一項第三項同行政院提案第二項文字為專案主管機關未辦理前項業務因涉審議會由專家學者民間團體及有關機關代表組成其中專家學者民間團體代表及原住民等不具官方身份之代表人數不得少於委員總人數二分之一"},{"start":3651.195,"end":3672.536,"text":"人擬具第2項後段其中專家學者及民間團體代表人數不得少於委員總人數三分之二其餘同行政院提案委員鄭天才等19人提案第一項第二項同行政院提案第三項為第一項海洋庇護區之花景基準變更廢止與其程序及其他相關事項之辦法應用中央主管機關會商農業主管機關及原住民族主管機關定之"},{"start":3673.397,"end":3697.695,"text":"委員黃潔等18人委員陳廷飛等16人委員蔡玉玉等19人委員吳啟明等18人提案同行政院提案委員徐宇貞等20人提案第一項第三項同行政院提案第二項為專家主管機關為辦理前項業務應涉審議會由專家學者余慧余明代表民間團體及有關機關代表組成其中專家學者余慧余明代表及民間團體代表人數不得少於委員總人數三分之二委員莊瑞雄等20人提案"},{"start":3698.576,"end":3725.07,"text":"中央主管機關得救海洋生態系統有特別保護必要且未經其他主管機關劃設為海洋保護區者應經審議會審議劃定為海洋庇護區。前項審議會之委員為無己職其設置辦法由中央主管機關定之其中專家學者、民間團體、法人員、住民及在地居民等不具官方身份之代表其不得少於委員總人數二分之一。第一項海洋保庇護區之劃定基準變更分子程序審議會之組成執掌利益迴避及其他相關事項之辦理由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":3726.411,"end":3747.248,"text":"委員盧敏玲等17人提案第8條第一項第三項同行政院提案第二項同行政院提案第二項為專家主管機關為辦理前項業務應涉審議會由專家學者及相關民間組織團體相關事當人員相關法人代表及有關機關代表組成其中專家學者相關民間組織團體相關事當人員及相關法人代表人數不得少於5人總人數三分之二"},{"start":3748.249,"end":3766.118,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第9條,第一項第二項分別為中央主管機關得救海洋生態系統有特別保護必要且為經其他主管機關劃設為海洋保護區者,劃定為海洋庇護區,涉及原住民族土地及海域者應會同中央民族主管機關定之。中央主管機關會辦理前項業務應涉審議會由專家學者民間團體與該庇護區所在海域有利害關係之團體及有關機關代表組成。"},{"start":3771.961,"end":3788.964,"text":"其中專家學者、民間團體及與該庇護區所在水域有利害關係之團體等不具官方身份之代表人數不得少於委員總人數二分之一。涉及於原住民族土地及海域者,原住民族代表不得少於前數不具官方身份之代表總人數二分之一。第三項同行政院提案。"},{"start":3789.665,"end":3810.866,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人擬案第9條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬案第9條委員洪森翰等16人擬案第二下後段其中專家學者及民間團體代表及原住民等人數不得少於委員總人數二分之一其餘同行政院擬案台灣民眾黨黨團擬案第9條第三下後段修正為中央主管及官員每5人召開會議檢討之其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬案第9條委員賴瑞龍等18人擬案第8條"},{"start":3814.789,"end":3842.547,"text":"主管器官得依據下列情形之一而有特別保存必要之一處海域或與其比鄰之陸域化定為海洋庇護區域並得區分為核心區緩衝區及永續利用區依海洋生態系統具原始性或具生物多樣性而有保存或供學術研究必要者而具有特殊之地形、地質現象或生態之海域三、對特定生物數量生命階段或棲地具特殊重要性之海域四、具維持或促進海洋生態系統之碳匯功能者五、其他符合保存目的者"},{"start":3843.207,"end":3860.983,"text":"委員高清素梅等22人擬案第8條,第一項第三項同行政院擬案第7條之第一項第三項。第二項為中央主管機關未辦理前項業務應設中央審議會由專家學者、民間團體及有關機關代表組成,其中專家學者、民間團體及援助營等不具官方身份之代表不得少於委員總人數三分之二。"},{"start":3862.628,"end":3878.146,"text":"委員羅天玉等18人提案第10條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第10條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條第二項修正為海洋庇護區規劃階段臨近開發行為如有侵害海洋生態系統之餘中央主管機關得令其暫緩執行其運同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第10條"},{"start":3879.588,"end":3894.788,"text":"委員高金素梅等22人提案第9條地方主管機關就管轄範圍內委辦理前項業務應設地方省營會由地方政府首長或由委員互推人兼任之其中專家學者民間團體及原住民等不具官方身份之代表不得少於委員總人數三分之二"},{"start":3895.488,"end":3923.213,"text":"地方主管機關管轄範圍涉及當地原住民屬海域範圍者,其原住民身份委員應由當地部落會議主席兼任之。但該部落尚未成立部落會議或部落會議主席出缺者,得由地方主管機關參照部落傳統慣俗指定適當人員擔任之。第一項海洋庇護區之劃定基準變更廢止程序與前項審議會之設置、組成、運作及其他相關事項之辦法,應由地方主管機關會同農業主管機關及原住民族主管機關定之。"},{"start":3924.053,"end":3947.344,"text":"第八條委員伍麗華等16人委員黃婕等18人委員莊瑞雄等20人委員洪森翰委員陳亭飛委員蔡奕宇等19人委員吳啟明等提案及委員羅美玲等17人提案。第九條同行政院提案委員王美惠等17人提案第二項第三項文字調整為應登載於政府公報新聞紙並以網際網路或其他適當方法廣泛周知其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3948.084,"end":3972.429,"text":"委員鄭天才等19人擬具第2項第3項文字調整同委員王美惠等17人擬具第4項為第一項海洋庇護區保育計劃之擬定涉及原住民族土地及海域者中央主管機關應會上原住民族主管機關擬定涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地海域及自然資源時審議前擬定機關應與當地原住民族或部落諮商並取得其同意其餘同行政院擬定"},{"start":3973.229,"end":4001.585,"text":"委員徐玉珍等20人提案。第一項前段修正為因會商有關及關及餘會。第三項於新聞指後增加中華民國全國餘會刊物文字其餘同行政院提案。委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第10條。第一項同行政院提案第一項。第二項為前項海洋庇護區保育計畫應在明下列事項。一、計畫範圍目標及規劃圖。二、水資源系統。三、水資源系統生態資源系統與環境之基礎調查及分析。三、分區規劃及維護管理之規定或措施。"},{"start":4002.225,"end":4020.812,"text":"事財務與人力實施計劃五、其他相關事項第三、四、五項同行政院提案第二、三、四項並著作文字修正委員羅廷偉等18人提案第11條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第11條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條第二項後段修正為主管機關一限期回覆其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第11條"},{"start":4022.032,"end":4045.747,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第9條。主管機關公告劃定海洋庇護區前印尼地計劃公開展覽30日及當地舉行公聽會。管理計劃應包含以下事項。一、劃定之分區範圍。二、劃定之目標理由。三、計劃範圍海域之生態現況調查。四、分區管理及保育措施。五、受計劃影響之利害關係人意見、人類活動與使用狀態及因應。六、相關機關學界意見。七、其他有關事項。"},{"start":4046.667,"end":4072.022,"text":"前項海洋庇護區之化設計化與供聽會之程序及前項相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之由地方主管機關化定之海洋庇護區報請中央主管機關核定後公告實施由主管機關委職者與核定後公告實施中央主管機關應定其接受個人團體提報符合第一項之海域或其與其比鄰地物語第一項海洋庇護區之設置涉及原住民族傳統利用者主管機關因應原住民族基本法第19條及第21條"},{"start":4074.063,"end":4101.04,"text":"諮商取得同意。海洋庇護區之變更或廢止之計劃流程提報等是用第一項之第三項第五項規定。委員高金素梅等22人提案第十條。第一項為中央主管機關花庭海洋庇護區後因會同原住民族中央主管機關及其他有關機關擬定海洋庇護區保育計劃並公開展覽30日及舉行公聽會。其變更或廢止時亦同。第二項第三項同行政院提案第八條第二項第三項。第四五六項分別為"},{"start":4101.92,"end":4123.925,"text":"底下海洋庇護區保育計劃之擬定涉及原住民族土地及海域者中央主管機關因會同原住民族主管機關擬定涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地海域及自然資源時審議前擬定機關應與當地原住民族或部落諮商並取得其同意因劃定海洋庇護區而當地原住民接受限制所生之損失應由中央主管機關寬列預算補償"},{"start":4125.446,"end":4132.778,"text":"前向之補償機制及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員羅廷偉等18人為台灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第12條。"},{"start":4139.037,"end":4160.144,"text":"人擬具委員鄭天才等19人擬具第一項第一款及第四款之或修正為極其餘同行政院擬具委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具第11條增加第一項第五款文字為五臺灣原住民族寄予其傳統文化記憶以於該海域獵捕宰殺或利用海洋生物之事實其餘同行政院擬具委員羅廷偉等18人臺灣命中黨黨團擬具第13條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具第13條"},{"start":4165.186,"end":4183.488,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第10條任何人海陸域交通工具禁止進入海洋庇護區至核心區並從事活動但有下列情形之意者不在此限一國防安全及軍事目的二海域海岸巡防因應重大公共安全犯罪查緝漁業巡獲緊急污染防制海南救助航路標示"},{"start":4184.328,"end":4211.158,"text":"設置、管理海洋保育水下文化資產之保存及管理等公務目的﹐三、外國傳播一中華民國領海及臨界區法第7條第一項第五款規定﹐四、其他近中央主管機關同意之科學研究監測及調查活動﹐委員高晶素美等22人提案第11條﹐第二項後段修正為中央主管機關應會同援助民主中央主管機關及其他有關機關及與同行政院提案第9條﹐委員羅敏玲等17人提案第10條及其與個案均同行政院提案﹐"},{"start":4213.479,"end":4230.53,"text":"議員提案,第一項,第二項同行政院提案,增加第三項,第一項之許可,竟許可者應主動提供相關監測資料,主管機關應定期監測海域開放利用之情形並公開相關資訊,足造成海域生態之具體危害或可預見有危害之發生必要時,主管機關應強制禁止該許可行為,獲得廢棄該許可。"},{"start":4233.792,"end":4259.685,"text":"人擬具第11條第一項增加第6款能量或物質排放其餘同行政院擬具委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具第12條第一項續文的第二款後面增加或第5款文字其餘同行政院擬具委員羅廷偉等18人擬具第14條第三項末段文字修正為獲得廢棄該許可其餘同委員楊瓊瓊等20人擬具第14條台灣民眾黨黨團擬具第14條第一項第7款修正為棄排放有害物質其餘同委員楊瓊瓊等20人擬具第14條"},{"start":4261.966,"end":4280.922,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第11條海洋庇護區之緩衝區內禁止從事下列行為及活動一、稅產養殖二、盈利性財補海洋生物三、觀光休閒活動四、開挖巨深航道或施作海洋工程五、鋪設電纜管道設施或結構六、從事探礦或採礦七、其他盡重要主管機關公告禁止行為"},{"start":4281.762,"end":4303.042,"text":"前項第一款及第二款行為竟主管機關會同與業主管機關許可者不在此限。前項第三款至第七款竟主管機關會同目的事業主管機關許可者不在此限。第一項第一款及第二款行為得由主管機關會同與業主管機關公告一定種類、數量、方式、範圍或期間等條件代之。委員皋金素美等22人提案第12條及其餘個案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":4306.36,"end":4326.797,"text":"人提案第一項同行政院提案另增訂第二項為前項之許可主管機關應定其監測海域開放利用之情形如造成海域生態之具體危害或可預見有危害之發生必要時主管機關應強制禁止該許可行為獲得廢棄該許可委員羅廷偉等18人提案第15條第三項莫端文字修正委獲得廢棄該許可其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第15條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第15條"},{"start":4332.842,"end":4357.035,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第12條第一項同委楊瓊瓔等20人提案第15條第一項第二項為前項第一款破壞性魚撈之項目及類型由中央主管機關會同漁業主管機關公告之前項第二款至第五款所列禁止行為請中央主管機關會同目的事業主管機關許可者不在此限委員羅美玲等17人提案第12條委員蘇巧慧等16人委員高金素美等22人提案第13條及其餘個案均同行政院提案"},{"start":4357.995,"end":4377.584,"text":"第12條、委員羅天威等18人、臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條、同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第16條、委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第13條。第11條及第12條許可取得者依依規定搜集、建置、保存及公布海洋相關資料。主管機關任由破壞海洋之餘得隨時查核或調閱資料。相關人員不得妨礙、拒絕或規避。"},{"start":4378.764,"end":4399.524,"text":"必要時主管機關得變更費值該許可。但前項處理資料之方式由中央主管機關定之。第11條之第12條許可條件之取得程序收費標準及相關事項由中央主管機關定之。委員羅美玲等17人提案第13條。委員蘇巧慧等16人。委員高晶素美等20人提案第14條。及其餘個案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":4400.225,"end":4417.463,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等18案提案第44條原住民族基於其傳統文化、記憶或自用需要於海洋庇護區內有採捕或利用海洋生物之必要者,不受第11條至第12條之限制。前項採捕或利用海洋生物之物種、數量、期間和準程序由主管機關會同原住民族主管機關及漁業主管機關定之。"},{"start":4419.685,"end":4448.595,"text":"第三章委員盧廷偉等18人委員羅美玲等17人臺灣民眾黨黨團委員賴瑞隆等18人提案張明桐委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案其餘各案張明君同行政院提案第十三條委員王美惠等17人委員鄭天才等19人提案第一項續委員之中央主管機關修正委主管機關其餘同行政院提案委員鍾瑞雄等20人提案第一項為保育海洋生物主管機關應會商目的事業主管機關並經審議會審議公告下列四項第一款至第四款同行政院提案之第一項第一款至第四款"},{"start":4449.415,"end":4472.563,"text":"第二項之第四項分別為前項審議會之委員吾己職其設置辦法由中央主管機關定之其中專家學者民間團體法人及原住民等不具官方身份之代表不得少於委員總人數二分之一第一項審議會之執掌組成利益迴避等相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之此項是縣市主管機關一第一項規定公告前因報請中央主管機關和定之委員羅廷偉等18人提案第17條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第17條"},{"start":4476.104,"end":4476.264,"text":"委員羅美琳"},{"start":4504.52,"end":4533.053,"text":"委員盧美玲等提案第14條委員蘇巧慧等16人委員高金素美等20人提案第15條及其餘個案均同行政院提案臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條開發及觀光行為對海洋保育類動植物不得有騷擾、中斷遷徙、培育繁殖或餵養等行為相關辦法由中央主管機關定之中央主管機關應定及調查海洋保育類動植物並制定保育復育計劃海洋保育類動植物之緊急搶救、復育及相關運送事務"},{"start":4534.153,"end":4551.263,"text":"得由中央主管機關委託學術團體或民間專業團體協助辦理。第十四條委員王美惠等17人及委員鄭天才等19人提案。第一項、第四項機關購法人團體修正為機關購團體。第六項補償條件基準修正為補償條件補償基準其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":4552.063,"end":4575.62,"text":"委員黃婕等18人擬議第五項後段遭受特別犧牲之損失者修正為遭受損失者其餘同行政院擬議委員徐宇貞等20人擬議第四項中段增加進行調查或實施各項保育措施應客遵正當法律程序以符合比例原則方式為之等文次其餘同行政院擬議委員鍾瑞雄等20人擬議第一項第四項同委員王美惠等17人擬議第一項及第四項其餘同行政院擬議"},{"start":4576.661,"end":4582.928,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人擬具第18條委員民眾黨黨團擬具第19條委員賴瑞榮等18人擬具第16條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具第18條委員羅美玲等17人擬具第15條委員蘇巧慧等16人委員高進蘇美等22人擬具第16條及其餘個案均同行政院擬具第15條委員羅廷偉等18人"},{"start":4597.372,"end":4621.407,"text":"提案第19條及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第20條同委員楊瓊瓔提案第19條委員賴瑞榮等提案第17條第一項前段增加受託機關或團體文字第二項增加處涉及軍事機密者應會同軍事機關為之其餘同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員盧美玲等17人提案第16條委員蘇巧慧等委員高進素美等提案第17條及其餘個案均同行政院提案"},{"start":4622.367,"end":4634.944,"text":"第16條,委員王美惠等及委員鄭天才等人提案。第11,第一項前段之民眾法人或團體修正委民眾或團體其餘同行政院提案。委員羅天威等18案提案。第16條,委員賴瑞榮等18案提案。第18條,同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案。第20條,"},{"start":4638.368,"end":4654.844,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第21條、第1、3項統委員楊瓊瓔等提案第20條至第1、2項、第2項統行政院提案第16條、第2項委員羅美玲等提案第17條、委員蘇巧慧等16人、委員高進、蘇美等22人提案第18條及其餘各案具統行政院提案第17條"},{"start":4657.048,"end":4675.782,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第21條委員羅美玲等提案第18條委員蘇巧慧等提案第19條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第22條同行政院提案第17條其餘個案均同行政院提案第18條委員羅廷偉等18人提案第22條同委員楊瓊瑛等提案第22條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第23條第一項同行政院提案第18條第二項為主管機關對於我國管轄議"},{"start":4682.307,"end":4703.802,"text":"以外海域之生物多樣性維護與永續發展應與各國或國際組織應進行合作並鼓勵人民及民間團體參與委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第19條主管機關為促進海洋保育、海洋生物多樣性保護永續利用相關知識人才培育、得對人民或團體參與國際交流活動、傳遞海洋知識等給予獎勵或補助。前項獎勵或補助辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":4705.063,"end":4723.238,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第20條,後段增加原住民各組文資其餘同行政院提案第18條委員羅美玲等提案第19條,委員蘇巧慧等提案第20條及其餘各案均同行政院提案第19條委員徐玉珍等提案第一項序文及第二項與法人後增加與會文資其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":4723.818,"end":4749.879,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第二十三條同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第二十三條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十四條為執行海洋生態富裕各級主管機關或目的事業主管機關得自行或委託其他機關個人或民間團體或由人民機關構法人團體依據國家海洋保育綱領提出包含下列富裕措施之海洋生態富裕計劃並經中央主管機關資義專家學者及民間團體同意後實施一、人工富裕設施之投放二、海洋動物質培育或流放"},{"start":4750.299,"end":4766.061,"text":"三、「海洋植物之培育或栽植。四、其他復育之必要措施。各級主管機關或目的事業主管機關辦理前項海洋生態復育計畫應提供生態復育監測計畫監測復育狀況定期將辦理情形包送中央主管機關備查。委員賴瑞榮等提案第20條。"},{"start":4767.262,"end":4793.33,"text":"第一項虛文修正為為執行海洋生物賦予各級主管機關或目的地事業主管機關得依據國家海洋保育綱領或海洋庇護區保育計劃提出下列賦予措施報請中央主管機關和聽後實施其餘同委員楊瓊瓊等提案第23條第一項委員高金素美等22人提案第21條第三項後段修正為中央主管機關應會同原住民族中央主管機關及其他有關機關其餘同行政院提案第19條委員羅美琳等17人提案第20條"},{"start":4795.512,"end":4814.128,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等提案第21條及其餘個案精通行政院提案。委員羅廷偉等提案第24條同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第24條。委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第21條。人民或團體自行辦理復育措施前應提出復育計劃報請主管機關許可。簽上人民或團體復育計劃之申請辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":4814.728,"end":4827.583,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第25條同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第25條委員蘇巧慧等提案第7條中央主管機關應定期會同有關機關進行水資源環境史海洋生態等基礎調查建制海洋保護資料庫與專屬網頁並公開資料庫與專屬網頁應定期更新"},{"start":4830.806,"end":4853.275,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第25條第一項為主管機關應建立並定期更新海洋基礎資料庫及及時監測資料庫內容至少應包含整體海域生態、燃炭生態系、保育類物種、海洋污染資源利用物理環境離岸風機及船隻海上作業並以指定網站主動公開作為民眾參與海洋治理及海洋保護區劃設基礎法律另有規定者依其規定。"},{"start":4854.235,"end":4878.729,"text":"第二三項同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第25條之第二三項並著作文字修正。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第26條主管機關審查或參與有關機關諮詢審查海岸或海域開發案時應主動要求相關部會及業者落實社區知情權。前項所稱社區知情權相關辦法由中央主管機關定制並應至少包含下列事項一前期選址階段二中期規劃及環評階段三通知到家戶方式。"},{"start":4879.189,"end":4883.651,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":4903.96,"end":4910.829,"text":"第四章委員賴瑞榮等18人提案章明發責及損害賠償責任其餘各案章明均同行政院提案"},{"start":4912.321,"end":4937.964,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第26條投委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第26條第二十條委員徐宇貞等20人提案第一項罰還改為五萬元以上五十萬元以下增加第二項文字為愚業從業人物入海洋庇護拘置核心區者且無重大違規情勢經勸導使離者不處罰其餘同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第二十一條前段改為違反第十條第一項規定其餘同行政院提案委員蘇巧慧等提案"},{"start":4939.025,"end":4955.695,"text":"第22條,前段改為違反第11條第一項規定其餘通行政院提案委員羅廷偉等提案第27條同委員楊瓊瓊等提案第27條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第27條違反第13條規定進入海洋庇護區之核心區域者處刑為人海陸域交通工具處罰"},{"start":4956.335,"end":4975.216,"text":"家屎人或船長一年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣50萬元以上28萬元以下罰金因過失犯前項制規定者得減輕期刑委員賴日龍等18人提案第二十二條違反第十條規定進入海洋庇護區這核心區並從事活動者處新台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還請通知淨澤衛改善者得按日連續處罰之"},{"start":4976.577,"end":5001.25,"text":"委員高基素美等提案第二十二條,前段改為違反第十一條第一項規定其餘同行政院提案。委員陳廷輝等16人提案,罰還改為50萬元以上250萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。其餘個案均同行政院提案。第二十一條,委員王美惠等17人提案,罰還改為10萬元以上30萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。委員徐一貞等20人提案,罰還改為3萬元以上30萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":5001.85,"end":5021.133,"text":"委員羅美玲等17人提案第22條前段改為違反第11條第一項規定其餘同行政院提案委員蘇強輝等16人提案第23條前段改為違反第12條第一項規定其餘同行政院提案委員羅廷威等18人提案第28條前段文字為違反第14條至第15條及第17條第一項之規定其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第28條"},{"start":5022.254,"end":5044.403,"text":"委員民眾黨黨團提案第28條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第28條。委員賴瑞龍等提案第23條有下列情形之一處新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還。竟通知禁止而未改善者得按日連續處罰之。因違反第11條各款規定未進許可擅自從事特定行為者。而違反第15條第一項各款規定公告事項之一者。委員高晶素美等22人提案第23條。"},{"start":5045.983,"end":5070.511,"text":"違反第12條第一項規定於海洋庇護拘職緩衝去年未經許可從事該項所定禁止行為這處新台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還但願住民基於傳統文化記憶生活所須致利用的行為不在此限委員陳廷飛等提案罰還改為10萬元以上50萬元以下取同行政院提案其餘個案均同行政院提案第二十二條委員王美惠等提案罰還改為5萬元以上30萬元以下取同行政院提案"},{"start":5072.355,"end":5089.691,"text":"委員徐玉珍等20人提案法環改為1萬元以上15萬元以下其餘同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第23條第一款第二款分別改為違反第12條規定及違反第14條第一項公告事項其餘同行政院提案委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第24條同行政院提案並著作文字修正"},{"start":5090.271,"end":5113.408,"text":"委員賴玉榮等18人提案第24條有下列情形之一處新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還經通知盡者未改善者得按日連續處罰之違反第10條規定未經許可進入海洋庇護區之核心區者二、違反第12條各款規定未經許可擅自從事特定行為者三、違反第13條第一項規定未保存資料或規避妨礙或拒絕提供資料或提供不實質資料"},{"start":5114.449,"end":5134.256,"text":"四違反第16條第二項規定規避拒絕或妨礙海洋生物資源調查或海洋庇護區保育計劃實施者五違反第17條第二項規定規避妨礙或拒絕規避拒絕或妨礙海洋生物資源調查或海洋庇護區保育計劃實施者六違反第21條規定未報金中央主管機關許可者自行辦理賦予措施"},{"start":5134.916,"end":5155.215,"text":"委員高晶素美等提案第二十四條同行政院提案第二十二條並著作文字修正委員陳廷飛等16人提案法環改為6萬元以上30萬元以下其餘同行政院提案其餘個案均同行政院提案第二十三條委員徐玉珍等提案法環改為1萬元以上10萬元以下其餘同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第二十四條"},{"start":5157.594,"end":5185.72,"text":"同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員蘇巧慧等提案第25條同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員羅廷偉等18人提案第29條同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第29條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第29條有下列情形之一處新台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下法環經限期改善而未改善者得按日連續處罰之一違反第18條第一項規定二違反第19條第二項規定規避拒絕或妨礙海洋生物資源調查或海洋庇護區"},{"start":5186.44,"end":5208.47,"text":"保育計劃實施者。三、違反第二十條第三項規定規避拒絕或妨礙海洋保育巡查員或觀察員執行觀察監測及搜集資料者。委員高金素美等提案第二十五條同行政院提案第二十三條並著作文字修正。委員陳廷飛等16人提案返還改為三萬元以上十五萬元以下其餘同行政院提案其餘個案均同行政院提案。第二十四條"},{"start":5209.651,"end":5224.762,"text":"委員盧曼玲等提案第25條同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員蘇巧慧等提案第26條同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員羅廷偉等提案以及委員臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第30條同委員楊瓊瑛等提案第30條委員高金素美等提案第26條"},{"start":5228.565,"end":5249.184,"text":"違反第二十一條第二項規定未經主管機關同意自行辦理賦予措施者處新台幣一萬元以上五萬元以下罰還但原住民基於傳統文化記憶生活所需之保育行為不在此限委員陳廷飛等提案罰還改為二萬元以上十萬元以下去同行政院提案其餘個案均同行政院提案第二十五條委員羅美玲等提案第二十六條同行政院提案"},{"start":5250.925,"end":5276.522,"text":"並第一項前段改為違反第10條第一項第11條第一項第12條規定或第14條第一項公告事項者其餘同行政院提案委員舒巧慧等提案第27條同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉等18人臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第32條同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第32條並著作文字修正委員賴日榮等提案第26條"},{"start":5278.772,"end":5293.212,"text":"第一項修正委違反本法第10條之第12條禁止規定及第15條海洋生物保育事項者主管機關得命其接受2小時以上、12小時以上之海洋保育獎期課程。其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第32條。"},{"start":5295.154,"end":5314.886,"text":"委員高晶素美等提案第二十七條同行政院提案第二十五條並著作文字修正委員陳廷飛等提案法環改為一萬元以上五萬元以下其餘同行政院提案其餘個案均同行政院提案第二十六條委員羅美玲等提案第二十七條同行政院提案並著作文字修正委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第二十八條"},{"start":5316.267,"end":5339.565,"text":"第一項、第二項分別為違反本法規定經依第22條至第24條規定處罰者。其損害部分予以規定期間內回復原狀為能於規定期間內回復原狀者依第22條至第24條規定連續罰職不能回復原狀或回復嫌有重大困難者應賠償其損害。發生破壞海洋保育重大緊急事件時中央主管機關得採取相關緊急應變措施。第三項同行政院提案第二項"},{"start":5340.586,"end":5364.251,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案為臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第31條同委員楊瓊瓊等提案第31條委員賴瑞龍等提案第25條違反第22條致第24條規定者且致海洋生態受損者其損害部分因回復原狀不能回復原狀或回復性有重大困難者應付賠償責任為調查回復原狀所支出之必要費用也賠償義務人負擔第一項包括當事人相關經理人及營運人"},{"start":5365.191,"end":5382.972,"text":"委員高清素梅等提案第28條同行政院提案第26條並著作文字修正其餘個案均同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條違反本法規定金一第27條至第30條規定受處罰者中央主管機關應定其餘網站公告處罰案件普及民眾海洋保育知識觀念及素養"},{"start":5384.093,"end":5402.906,"text":"第五章章敏軍同行政院提案第27條委員王美惠等17人及委員莊瑞雄等提案第一項後段及第二項前段至高等行政法院改為行政法院其餘同行政院提案委員羅美玲等提案第28條第一項後段至高等行政法院改為行政法院其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":5404.006,"end":5430.349,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第33條﹖臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第34條﹖同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第33條﹖委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第27條﹖第一項前段修正委行政委員違反本法或一本法授權奠定相關命令之情事而各級主管機關待遇執行時﹖其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第33條﹖第一、第二項﹖委員高晶素美等提案第29條﹖同行政院提案第27條﹖其餘各案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":5431.11,"end":5448.785,"text":"委員羅廷偉等提案第34條委員羅美玲等提案第29條臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條委員賴瑞隆等提案第28條同委員楊瓊瓔等提案第34條委員莊瑞雄等委員吳齊明等提案第29條前段文字改為本法罰還收入其餘同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案"},{"start":5450.626,"end":5476.132,"text":"第34條。第28條,委員王美惠等提案後段增加,但其繼續從事核准行為可預見造成海洋生態具體危害或持續造成具體危害之擴大者,中央主管機關應廢棄該許可並得給予合理之補償文字。委員羅美玲等提案第30條,原引條次分別改為第1、第8條規定及不受第10條至第12條規定之限制其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":5476.912,"end":5500.102,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等提案第30條中央主管機關依第9條規定劃定海洋庇護區前與該海域合法取得目的事業主管機關同意鋪設電纜管道設施結構從事探光或採礦或其他禁許可或核准之行為者不收第11條之第13條規定之限制得繼續從事許可或核准行為之有效期限屆滿為止中央主管機關依第9條規定劃定海洋庇護區前"},{"start":5500.942,"end":5524.559,"text":"台灣原住民族基於其傳統文化記憶與該海域獵捕、宰殺或利用海洋生物之事實,不受第10條至第13條規定之限制。其獵捕方式獵捕海洋生物之種類數量獵捕期間,區域及其他應遵循事項之辦法,由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。委員羅廷偉等提案第36條。底下莫德文自修正為中央主管機關應廢棄該許可。其餘通委員楊瓊瓔等提案第36條。"},{"start":5525.8,"end":5553.466,"text":"委員賴日榮等提案第30條。第22條至第24條相關法則於各海洋庇護局公告後半年生效。海洋庇護局公告前已取得目的事業主管機關許可並從事本法禁止事項者不受第10條至第12條之規定限制的從事核准行為至有效期限屆滿為止。必要時中央主管機關得會同目的事業主管機關變更廢紙蓋許可並給予合理之補償。委員高晶素美等提案第30條。同行政院提案第28條並著作文字修正。"},{"start":5554.786,"end":5567.994,"text":"其餘各案均同行政院提案。第29條委員羅廷偉等提案第35條委員羅美玲等提案第19委員羅美玲等委員蘇巧慧等委員高金素美等提案第31條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第36條委員莊瑞雄等"},{"start":5570.755,"end":5598.833,"text":"委員吳啟明等提案第30條及其餘個案均同行政院提案。第三十條委員羅廷維等提案第37條、臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第38條委員賴瑞榮等提案第31條同委員楊瓊瓔等20人提案第37條委員蘇巧慧等提案第32條本法自公佈日期二年施行委員莊瑞雄等委員吳啟明等提案第31條委員羅美玲等委員高金素美等提案第32條及其餘個案均同行政院提案"},{"start":5600.896,"end":5623.039,"text":"修正動議二、第六條第一項序文增加會同原住民族中央主管機關及其他等文字。第七條第二項增加原住民等不具官方身份之代表不得少於委員總人數三分之二。第三項增加會同農業主管機關及原住民族主管機關。"},{"start":5625.396,"end":5648.566,"text":"第八條第一項增加會同原住民族中央主管機關及其他有關機關。第四項後段修正為中央主管機關應因會同原住民族主管機關擬定涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地海域及自然資源時審議且擬定機關應與當地原住民族或部落諮商並取得其同意。"},{"start":5649.486,"end":5665.475,"text":"稱定第五項因劃定海洋庇護區而當地原住民族受限制所生之損失應由中央主管機關寬列預算補償。第七項前項之補償機制及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。第九條"},{"start":5668.632,"end":5686.397,"text":"第2項後段增加會同原住民族中央主管機關及其他有關機關定制。第13條第一項序文增加會同原住民族中央主管機關文字。第18條增加原住民各族等文字。第19條"},{"start":5689.673,"end":5702.515,"text":"第二項後段增加會同原住民族中央主管機關等文字第二十一條後段增加但原住民族但原住民基於傳統文化記憶生活所需之利用的行為不在此限第二十四條"},{"start":5704.062,"end":5720.543,"text":"後段增加但原住民寄予傳統文化記憶生活所需之保育行為不在此限。第25條第二項增訂第二項前項海洋保育講習課程應包含原住民族知識以及原住民族生物多樣性課程。"},{"start":5721.772,"end":5751.267,"text":"增加第四項,第一項海洋保育講習課程之內容實施之對象方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制提案人委員高金素梅等5人修正動議三第八條增加第五項海洋庇護區涉及原住民族土地及海域者應與原住民族建立共同管理機制其辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定制"},{"start":5753.086,"end":5775.604,"text":"提案人委員舒巧慧等5人。修正動議四,第三條第一項第五款修正為海洋庇護區只基於海洋生態系統具生物多樣性價值而有特別保護之必要,依本法所劃定之海洋保護區並得以核心區緩衝區及永續利用區進行分區管理者。"},{"start":5777.011,"end":5787.018,"text":"第七條第二項中段修正為其中專家學者民間團體代表及原住民等人數不得少於委員總人數二分之一"},{"start":5788.12,"end":5809.419,"text":"提案人委員張宏祿等4人修正動議五、第四條增加第二項前項制海洋保育措施因執基於科學證據主管機關域本法公布後5年內完成我國海洋生態普查並公開之其後每5年進行普查以更新資料。第七條"},{"start":5811.428,"end":5821.461,"text":"第二項後端修正為三分之二增加第四項地方政府或公益團體得依前項之辦法向中央主管機關提報申請劃定海洋庇護區。第27條"},{"start":5827.489,"end":5842.88,"text":"第一項前段增加各級主管機關待遇執行本法之行政義務並著作文字修正第二十八條第一項前段增加本法第一項前段修正為本法施行前已於海洋庇護區等文字"},{"start":5843.36,"end":5845.381,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〉案〉〈海洋保育法草案〉案〉"},{"start":5874.24,"end":5896.766,"text":"為暫定海洋庇護區。為進入審議程序前,遇有緊急情況時,主管機關亦得進列為暫定海洋庇護區。其審議期間以6個月為限,必要時得延長一次。主管機關應與其協議內完成審議。其滿是其暫定海洋庇護區之效力。第二項及第三項之條件及應建行程序之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。提案人委員劉許廷等5人。修正動議六第6條"},{"start":5905.083,"end":5926.207,"text":"第一項續文及第三項增訂會同有關機關及原住民族機關等文字。第六款修正為海洋保護區域員漁業人、漁業從業人之照顧。增加第七款其他與海洋保護區管理有關之事項。第七條第二項修正為"},{"start":5928.686,"end":5946.473,"text":"中央主管機關為辦理前項業務因涉審議會由專家、學者、漁會、漁民代表、民間團體、原住民代表及有關機關代表組成,其中漁民代表人數不得少於委員總人數三分之一,專家、學者、漁會、民間團體及原住民等不具官方身份之代表人數不得少於委員總人數三分之一。"},{"start":5947.573,"end":5969.208,"text":"人擬具第3項後段增加會同有關機關及原住民族機關定製等文字增加第4項第一項海洋庇護區劃定後因與受損害之漁業人及漁業權人補償相關補償辦法由中央主管機關會同有關機關原住民族機關及漁民團體定製第8條第一項增加"},{"start":5971.15,"end":5993.839,"text":"會同有關機關原住民族機關及漁會等文字。第三項,增加全國性漁會刊物等文字。第十二條,後段增加會同有關機關及原住民族機關等文字。第十三條,第一項序文增加中央主管機關應會同其他目的事業主管機關及原住民族機關。"},{"start":5995.714,"end":6014.95,"text":"第十四條第四項修正為調查機關構法人團體或保育人員進行調查或實施各項保育措施應客尊正當法律程序以符合比例原則之方式為之對於受檢之工商軍事秘密應予保密。第六項後段增加會同有關機關及援助民主機關"},{"start":6016.704,"end":6041.892,"text":"第15條第三項後段增加所需費用由指派機關支付等文字。第18條增加第二項第三項政府為促進海洋庇護區之劃設應與漁業全人諮商並取得其同意受限制所甚至損失應由中央主管機關匡列預算補償之。前項補償辦法由中央主管機關會同有關機關定之。第19條"},{"start":6044.929,"end":6061.848,"text":"第三項後段增加及援助民族機關等文字第二十條罰緩修正為一萬元以下、二十萬元以下增加第二項與業從業人誤入海洋庇護區之核心區且無重大違規情勢經勸導使離者不處罰第二十一條罰緩修正為"},{"start":6066.724,"end":6067.665,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〉"},{"start":6084.588,"end":6104.696,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法"},{"start":6109.912,"end":6128.85,"text":"第二十六條,罰金修正為五萬元,第一項罰金修正為五萬元以上,五十萬元以下第二十七條,罰還修正為五萬元以上,五十萬元以下第二十八條,罰還修正為三萬元以上,三十萬元以下第二十九條,罰還修正為一萬元以上,十萬元以下"},{"start":6130.151,"end":6142.82,"text":"第30條法環修正為一萬元以上十萬元以下。第32條第二項法環修正為二千元以上一萬元以下。提案人文旭、郁真等四人。"},{"start":6144.918,"end":6163.308,"text":"副代決議一,為使本法能積極落實以落實保護海洋生態環境及保育海洋生物多樣性,中央主管機關應與本法通過一年內公告整體海洋保護區管理政策方針,並完成劃設首批海洋庇護區。提案人委員蘇巧慧等5人。"},{"start":6164.605,"end":6189.745,"text":"副代決議二、為確保海洋生物多樣性之保育與復育之實施效益,中央主管機關在擬定海洋庇護區保育計劃時應在明下列事項一、計劃範圍目標及規劃圖二、水資源系統、生態資源系統與環境之基礎調查及分析三、分區規劃及維護管理之規定及或措施四、財務與人力實施計劃五、其他相關事項提案人委員蘇巧慧等5人宣讀完畢"},{"start":6194.051,"end":6199.056,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":6216.107,"end":6232.971,"text":"人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文審查委員王美惠等17人擬具:「海洋保育法�"},{"start":6239.437,"end":6259.605,"text":"進行主條討論,修正處理法案及名稱及第1章的章文、章名、有關法案的名稱及第1章章名委員的提案及行政院提案,大致相同,咱是不是依照"},{"start":6260.365,"end":6274.196,"text":"行政院提案及發案的名稱及第一張證明通過,若無異議、無什麼意見,我們就照案通過。看我們的委員會否有意見。沒有啦吼。這樣我們就張案通過。跟我們繼續來進行第一條的條文討論。"},{"start":6293.957,"end":6295.218,"text":"第1條會議條文委員會有什麼意見嗎?"},{"start":6303.297,"end":6329.81,"text":"好,男嘉徐委員第一條的部分我是有修正版本希望加上合理利用海洋生物資源其他的都跟院版一樣但是我覺得應該還因為第一條其實主要只是在講保育那我們希望說除了保育之外我們也可以合理利用海洋的生物資源加上這一個部分"},{"start":6330.956,"end":6332.457,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":6345.716,"end":6372.055,"text":"謝謝朝委跟各位委員有關於這一條我們所有的版本加起來總共有九個版本文字是都跟院版一樣剛剛很感謝許委員的修正我們有審酌就是所有委員的意見以後大概就是許委員版本的合理利用海洋生物資源我們是建議可以加在保育海洋生物多樣性的後面"},{"start":6373.076,"end":6398.696,"text":"另外蘇巧惠委員推動海洋保育教育我們可以加在協調並促進海洋保護趨勢規劃及執行的後面。所以修正的條文,如果韓納許委員跟蘇委員的這兩個項進來以後會變成說為保護海洋生態環境保育海洋生物多樣性合理利用海洋生物資源"},{"start":6400.477,"end":6408.021,"text":"協調並促進海洋保護區之規劃及執行推動海洋保育教育特制定本法。以上。"},{"start":6429.273,"end":6433.536,"text":"審查委員王美惠等16人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 條文 條2 條2 條2 條2 條2 條2 條2 條2 條2 條2"},{"start":6455.752,"end":6475.4,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案案件事宜、二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜、二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜、二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜、二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜、二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜、二、繼續審查委員王美惠等"},{"start":6488.91,"end":6492.372,"text":"委員白有一個第二條。請麻煩委員換在第六頁。委員白的第二條。"},{"start":6507.513,"end":6532.946,"text":"各位委員報告保護區當然聯合國的這個3030來講的話是一個非常高度的理想但是以這個高度的理想放在我們台灣要來做的話以我們現在所有的保護區的範圍來講才只有百分之八"},{"start":6534.787,"end":6550.822,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16"},{"start":6556.988,"end":6573.032,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16"},{"start":6586.736,"end":6609.04,"text":"但是這個精神要不要用附帶決議我們就尊重委員會來考慮說3030的這個保育的發展的方向我們有沒有要在這個精神之下作為努力的方向但是作為努力的目標恐怕我們可能還是達不到的以上報告"},{"start":6612,"end":6618.806,"text":"謝謝管主委,我想管主委剛剛也說明了嘛,就針對這個部分確實是至愛難行的,因為其實以現在來說,我們有69個保護區,其實才劃設了8%的這個限制海域。"},{"start":6625.131,"end":6626.692,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16"},{"start":6646.087,"end":6666.495,"text":"如此,我們另外有委員會的意見,如果沒有意見,我們就不予採納。所以我們剛才我們的委員就說30%沒辦法達到,所以你要想要定幾%?對,一定要有一個%數吧,對啊,不能說只有8%嘛。對,他就是說那個20,對啊,就是2030啊,不要列嗎?"},{"start":6673.198,"end":6677.18,"text":"對阿,第二條。跟委員報告,就是說到底要劃在哪裡是必須要經過科學調查做基礎。而且這個科學的調查,第一個我們的調查船現在才剛開始要造船。"},{"start":6698.893,"end":6701.776,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16"},{"start":6726.915,"end":6737.687,"text":"所以現在要去談說可能是多少百分比恐怕很抱歉就是說我們也都不敢不敢輕易的去預設說會是一個怎樣的方向"},{"start":6738.971,"end":6751.594,"text":"好,同意這個主委所說的,那本來我的版本也是有畫這個範圍,那我也同意朋友堅持,謝謝好,我們就這個委員帖楊瓊瓔委員﹑羅天惟委員﹑蘇喬瑞委員﹑臺灣民眾黨東團﹑高金樹梅總召所帖的案第二條,我們就不予採納"},{"start":6766.818,"end":6794.329,"text":"我剛才覺得其實為什麼要寫的原因是其實這一部法案大家都知道了嘛是其實是在海洋資源的保護和海洋資源的運用上面希望能夠得到一個平衡的狀態所以有這樣的一部法當然是會最好可是到底這個範圍應該要怎麼界定的話其實就是本件最大的爭議"},{"start":6795.189,"end":6818.981,"text":"所以我本來才想說是不是直接在法規上面可以是明文把這個範圍的部分吼包括是臨海、臨近區、禁止水域、限制水域、專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層的海域範圍這樣子的狀況是把它明文寫下來的啦但是剛才大家已經說到這裡啦這是說其實不一定要把它放在這裡那是不是我都把它變成一個附帶決議啦這樣好不好"},{"start":6824.536,"end":6849.005,"text":"我們可以試寫看看但是在試寫的過程之中可能有幾點就是說譬如禁止水域限制水域還有是不是用專屬經濟海域大陸交層為範圍的這個部分呢我們面對的是兩個部分一個就是說如果未來是BBNJ的思考模式的思考架構的時候那就不止"},{"start":6849.525,"end":6853.286,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":6878.195,"end":6879.056,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":6893.167,"end":6917.723,"text":"對,因為是這樣我跟您意見交換一下就好了就是說這個海洋保育的目標和其成其實我們大家都是用那個聯合國生物多樣性公約通過3030的目標嘛那我們也覺得這個現在不用先馬上入法可是本來也是覺得說那既然沒有入在法裡面的話那是不是用附帶決議的部分才不會說太嚴格的狀況到我們無法自己沒有辦法達成反而限制更多畢竟我們是剛踏出第一步嘛"},{"start":6918.343,"end":6919.124,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":6941.459,"end":6946.885,"text":"好,謝謝,這樣我們就報以採納,跟我們現在又經營第二條條文的討論,行政院的版本,來看我們委員有什麼意見嗎?"},{"start":6960.794,"end":6964.115,"text":"委員王美惠等17委員王美惠等17委員王美惠等17"},{"start":6985.171,"end":6990.654,"text":"我們看我們的委員有意見嗎?不堅持,謝謝謝謝我們的高精專委跟我們很多委員這樣我們就第二條依行政版本宴盤通過我們現在再進行第三條條文來討論請委員看有什麼意見嗎?第15頁的"},{"start":7014.364,"end":7043.56,"text":"攬家習委員第三條的部分就是我的版本主要是要增列第九款的漁業人第十款的漁業從業人跟漁業法第四條的規定是相符合他只是就這兩個在海上工作的這些應該成為海保法主要的定義對象那因為我後面的條文也會提到所以希望能夠增列第九款還有第十款"},{"start":7046.118,"end":7072.606,"text":"我們委員大家注意一下在第三條洪森漢的委員修正動議在我們的本合、我們的大家的都會長在北亞的大家修正動議看一看來,我們是不是剛才我們許委員的意見我們請副座說明一下好嗎"},{"start":7077.631,"end":7090.585,"text":"謝謝席委員提出這個定義啦那基本上這個遺業人或遺業從人是引用遺業法裡面的定義啦那遺業法一定有定義的當然這邊我是建議後面那個補償機制再討論這個定義可以引用遺業法的定義基本"},{"start":7098.693,"end":7108.203,"text":"可是因為我後面還有很多法條是要用到這個部分啊所以如果沒有定義的話可能我後面法條可以不用寫可以引用耶華的定義"},{"start":7110.113,"end":7111.494,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":7132.402,"end":7152.635,"text":"對海保法來說主要保護的對象其實應該是漁業人跟漁業從業人員所以如果可以把它定義進去的話我覺得會對這個法律比較周延我們請教召委是不是在立法技術的部分我們尊重一下那個法治單位請他們說明看看我們請法治單位起來說明法務部來"},{"start":7159.807,"end":7167.775,"text":"法務部來請回答剛才委員及副主委所的解說來請在庭內及不庭的差別"},{"start":7179.178,"end":7206.208,"text":"好 謝謝副市長謝謝主席以及各位委員那一般來講法律的體系是這樣如果在其他的法律裡面就這部分已經有明確的定義的時候很多概念是可以彼此原用的未必要重複的去立定因為這樣可能會產生細節文字裡面的如果略有出入的時候反而會產生適用上的意義那除非在這部法律裡面委員的提案是想要特別制定一個跟漁業法不同的定義"},{"start":7207.088,"end":7228.522,"text":"例如有出於特殊的目的的話,那可能可以再進行進一步的討論。如果定義的範圍是大致是相同的話,基於法律體系跟概念的一致性,我們是建議能夠原用其他法令既有也是有大院通過的法令的概念就可以了,比較節省立法基礎,也比較不會產生之後適用上的憾格。以上報告。"},{"start":7229.861,"end":7258.424,"text":"好,原則上我就是跟漁業法的第4條的規定相同好,因為說實在他也擔心說未來今天會有什麼問題所以他才提出好,這樣那個叫可以直接用,謝謝委員第三條那個洪森漢的咧?欸,洪森漢沒來捏沒來沒助理好,不用回答了"},{"start":7263.697,"end":7292.792,"text":"第三條照驗版通過我們現在要處理委員的提案我們現在要處理委員的提案有楊清英委員、羅廷偉委員、羅美玲委員和台灣民眾黨黨團提出都共有五個案和委員賴瑞龍的提案在我們的40倍以下,大家委員看看有什麼意見嗎?"},{"start":7312.635,"end":7331.087,"text":"這一條幾乎就是高度的共識高度的共識齁不要緊,我們尊重現場的委員若不然我們就叫所有的委員提案的價格來通過因為條文內容不一樣條文內容不一樣齁現在是講第幾條現在是講第幾條第四條第四條48頁48頁48頁啊對啊,不一樣吧"},{"start":7341.192,"end":7350.834,"text":"議員王美惠等16人擬具議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":7361.964,"end":7370.769,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":7384.912,"end":7386.332,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":7415.509,"end":7417.95,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具"},{"start":7439.298,"end":7446.621,"text":"楊瓊瓔委員及羅廷惠委員及羅美玲委員及臺灣民眾黨中團所提議的第五條及委員賴瑞榮所提案的第四條,所以我們有不予採納。我們現在繼續來進行第四條的條文討論,請委員看這個。"},{"start":7467.912,"end":7476.441,"text":"第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案。"},{"start":7485.936,"end":7512.339,"text":"我們現在宣告修正動議第四條的羅廷偉委員有帖在我們的党務廳第11位,但是他本人沒來,我們就沒處理。好,謝謝。來,這條有什麼意見沒來?第四條的話,我的版本有希望增煉第二項。就是主要希望海委會能夠會同有關機關跟原住民機關討論。"},{"start":7518.525,"end":7518.685,"text":"姓的?"},{"start":7545.213,"end":7566.722,"text":"謝謝許委員 謝謝昭緯跟委員報告我分兩個層次報告第一個就是說原來的17個版本我們非常慎重的來採納委員的意見以後我們原先是準備說這一條是在院版之外我們再增加王美惠昭緯委員版本裡面的"},{"start":7567.902,"end":7594.918,"text":"及因應氣候變遷這幾個字把它加進來然後放在未達成海洋生物多樣性及因應氣候變遷之目標我們原來所準備的是這樣的建議的修正條文那如果是徐委員剛剛所提的這個所謂會同的這個部分我想高基金委員也"},{"start":7595.598,"end":7614.323,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":7623.306,"end":7624.448,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":7639.229,"end":7662.161,"text":"我所知就是兩岸人民關係條例有用過因為它比較高度的敏感所以在小三通的航線等等這些部分有會同的概念其他在整個法制體系裡面大概都是主管機關負責的概念就是主管機關你要負責那如果說主管機關好幾個人就不知道誰該負責那會同是主管機關的身份"},{"start":7667.043,"end":7667.703,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":7685.41,"end":7690.273,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、"},{"start":7715.404,"end":7729.484,"text":"因為有時候這樣理清說得比較清楚,不然說實話委員大家也都很煩惱聽起來,大家很用心都不高興。好來。好,跟主席以及各位委員來報告。一般在法制作業上面,如果涉及業務的彼此的重疊的時候,"},{"start":7731.627,"end":7759.452,"text":"那我們在立法紀錄上大概有兩種至少有兩種強度一種叫做會同那一種叫做會商那中間主要的差別是在於以會同的角度來說其實兩邊的權利大概都跟主管機關一樣所以很多法案或是法規命令如果說要會同提出的話是要會嫌的就是你對裡面的其中一個字有意見就提出不了會互相卡來卡去可是如果這個東西真的重要到說每個主管機關意見都同等重要的話"},{"start":7764.975,"end":7775.601,"text":"例外一種是會商的合作模式是仍然是有主從之分,他會有主辦機關跟協辦機關的區別那主辦機關在形成這樣的政策或是提出相關的法規命令或甚至提出相關的法案規劃的時候"},{"start":7776.682,"end":7800.048,"text":"必須要諮商其他主管機關的意見。於於采納,當然最後可能采納之後還是以自己的意見為主。可是因為有主辦跟協辦的差別,最後認為回歸主辦機關的部分來為主。所以至少有這樣的兩種的不同的法制上的可能的規劃的方向,它合作的強度是不同的。那這邊跟委員來做報告,"},{"start":7804.444,"end":7825.311,"text":"謝謝,我們請高津召委先講一下好,謝謝主席首先我主委的說法第一我不接受第二呢這個法治單位講得很清楚他在法律上並沒有限制不能夠用會同這個部分"},{"start":7825.951,"end":7844.774,"text":"就單看這個法律你對於這個相關的人員所謂法案的重要性那行政院版的第四條還有我的第五條還有徐宇貞委員的第四條他增加一項就是由主管機關會同有關主管機關定資"},{"start":7846.095,"end":7865.752,"text":"在這裡呢我同意徐宇貞委員的主管機關會同但是也必須要把原民會加進來然後會加進來的第二個原因是因為原住民族依據原基法的傳統海域跟原基法第19條的公告海域這些都是原住民使用海域的範圍"},{"start":7866.753,"end":7884.526,"text":"所以我們在訂定整體海洋保護區管理政策方針的時候更應該依據原基法原基法等同縣法它是原住民法你不管是土地也好海域也好最重要的法所以在今天我們訂定這個海洋保護法的時候"},{"start":7885.467,"end":7902.066,"text":"我們待會還會碰到非常多的會商這個字所以我在這邊就一定的講也一定的要求會商這個字我們就改為會同以上謝謝來一個鄭天才委員簡單講就是說"},{"start":7907.115,"end":7915.303,"text":"會商就是就是我請你表示意見表示意見阿如果你的意見跟我不一樣"},{"start":7916.417,"end":7924.861,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案案件 判決案件 判決案件 判決案件 判決案件 判決案件 判決案件"},{"start":7939.858,"end":7965.648,"text":"他有他的名字然後嚴明會的主任委員也有名字農業部的部長也有名字在那邊就是三個如果是三個部會要會同的話從承辦人到那個主任委員或部長都要蓋章了蓋章上去才叫做會同就是很重大的很重要的部分就是用會同大概簡單講就是這樣"},{"start":7967.418,"end":7972.18,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":7994.128,"end":8018.337,"text":"在會同的會商到後面的時候我們再來討論就是第二章馬上就要到了那第四條是原則還完全沒有涉及程序所以第四條能不能建議我們就是用還是維持那個架構就是章節的架構第四條我們先用院版那會同或會商的問題我們第二章逐個條的時候我們再來討論能不能這樣"},{"start":8021.041,"end":8048.793,"text":"因為我的第四條是整列第二項就是希望前項海洋保護區的整合規劃及執行由主管機關會同有關機關訂定之所以基本上當然希望是能夠會同原住民的這個機關跟我們的有關機關來一起討論我是整列了第二項我的意思就是說這個東西放在這裡的第二項結構上是屬於第二章"},{"start":8049.873,"end":8057.581,"text":"對,我們看看第二章的時候再來討論是放在哪裡。但是第一章是原則,不是程序。好,我們先保留。好,同意先保留。我們繼續處理。"},{"start":8067.183,"end":8083.716,"text":"進行第二章章名的討論,第二章章名委員提案的,跟行政院提案的,差不多都一樣,我們是不是依照行政院提案的第二章的章名通過,"},{"start":8086.009,"end":8092.135,"text":"請問委員會有什麼意見?若沒有意見,我們就繼續執行第五條的條文來討論,甘麻煩。第二張張明通過。"},{"start":8106.158,"end":8115.802,"text":"對,剛才我說了,是不是我們叫行政院提案的第二章,章名通過,這樣算說第二次來,我們看委員第五條的看有什麼意見,第六十頁"},{"start":8144.205,"end":8148.388,"text":"應該...應該沒什麼意見吧?這應該沒什麼意見吧?沒...沒意見齁?這樣我們照驗板通過"},{"start":8157.695,"end":8163.24,"text":"再來,我們繼續審查第6屆的政委委員會有什麼意見嗎?在91頁的。在這兩份修正動議第6屆的告證。"},{"start":8173.291,"end":8175.954,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案案〉案。"},{"start":8193.422,"end":8200.868,"text":"委員王美惠等17委員王美惠等17委員王美惠等17"},{"start":8219.142,"end":8244.642,"text":"議員主席。但這個第六條,這個海洋保護區,我們現在要修改的就是海洋保護區的主題是這個管理有關之事項。我們現在要來修改這個海洋保護區源於漁業人、漁業從業人之照顧。第六條。"},{"start":8246.971,"end":8253.858,"text":"人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8255.65,"end":8277.028,"text":"鄭天才委員你有意見嗎?阿哥,會同有關機關,中央主管機關,會同有關機關及原住民族機關。好,這就過分。謝謝。中委員,不好意思。來,請鄭天才委員。好,第6條,我自己的版本。"},{"start":8278.496,"end":8296.466,"text":"我的版本在第99頁。從98到99。那因為這一條第6條是在講中央主管機關應會商有關機關訂定整體海洋保護期管理政策方針。"},{"start":8297.776,"end":8302.238,"text":"因尊重、維護、保存傳統用海智慧等海洋文化資產,保障與傳承原住民族傳統用海文化及潛意。"},{"start":8327.816,"end":8330.724,"text":"來,我們剛才有議件,賣政委員,來。"},{"start":8336.828,"end":8355.865,"text":"我們民眾黨這邊就是行政院版本的第6條就是關於台灣海洋保護區的第一管區的針對還有就是但裡面沒有讓利害關係人見有機會提出意見所以我們建議採納我們的版本第8條"},{"start":8361.67,"end":8381.847,"text":"召開公聽會納入移民相關利害關係人、專家、學者、公民團體的意見。在規劃裏面就是沒有納入公民參與的機制,確保規劃公正及公開這個部分。謝謝。我們現在要許議政委員。"},{"start":8391.895,"end":8418.536,"text":"有關我修正動議的第6條就是中央主管機關應會同跟剛剛的概念一樣有關機關及原住民機關然後增設第6條海洋保護區原漁業人跟漁業從業人之照顧然後另外就是一樣是第一項整體海洋保護區管理政策方針實施後中央主管機關應會同有關機關會商全部改作會同"},{"start":8418.996,"end":8420.504,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":8425.994,"end":8449.447,"text":"謝謝 謝謝三位那個行政院版的第6條也是我的第7條一樣就是回到我剛剛說的會商那個字要把它改為會同然後那個鄭天才委員的曾佳娜一項我覺得放上去也很好好不好但是呢我沒有非常堅持但是會同那個部分我是非常堅持以上謝謝好來主委"},{"start":8451.729,"end":8473.244,"text":"謝謝各位委員那我第一個就是有關於是不是要召開公聽會的部分我們原先也有預計就是要採納民眾黨以及王美惠委員還有周瑞雄委員跟吳其米委員徐宇珍委員都提到的"},{"start":8475.305,"end":8498.16,"text":"並於規劃及檢討階段提供必要資訊後召開公聽會以納入相關利害關係人 專家學者 公民團體之意見我們就有準備說委員們跟民眾黨的這些建議我們要把它納入作為修正條文這是第一點"},{"start":8499.36,"end":8519.487,"text":"第二點有關於原住民的部分因為本法在原住民相關的稅型的原住民基本法或者是諮商同意權的這一個部分它有兩個部分一個是劃設庇護區的過程另外一個是在制定保護計劃的過程"},{"start":8522.228,"end":8530.655,"text":"那這兩個過程我們後來是想說我們可以用增列第九條的方式"},{"start":8531.721,"end":8558.741,"text":"那等一下是不是再一起來討論這一塊我先念一下我們想說增列第九條大概就是把所有委員有關於原住民基本法應遂行程序的部分我們就全部都採納然後增列第九條海洋庇護區之劃定、變更或廢止及海洋庇護區保育計劃之擬定"},{"start":8561.042,"end":8577.392,"text":"涉及援助民族土地及海域部分中央主管機關因依援助民族基本法制規定辦理。我們就把它增列到第九條就全部都進來。所以這個部分是不是就"},{"start":8578.464,"end":8579.204,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊等16人擬具第9條議員楊瓊瓊等16人擬具第9條議員楊瓊瓊等17"},{"start":8606.168,"end":8612.975,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":8628.482,"end":8632.583,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":8646.738,"end":8651.521,"text":"第三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":8672.615,"end":8691.238,"text":"提案希望中央主管機關為辦理前項業務應設審議會由專家學者、漁會、漁民代表、民間團體、原住民代表及有關機關代表組成其中漁民代表不得少於委員總人數的三分之一"},{"start":8691.898,"end":8717.587,"text":"專家學者、漁會、民間團體及原住民等不具官方身份的代表人數不得少於委員人數的三分之一。然後另外也是一樣因會同有關機關及原住民機關定之。那第一項海洋庇護區的話定之後應該給予損害之漁業人及漁業權人的補償。相關補償辦法由中央主管機關會同有關機關"},{"start":8718.607,"end":8719.249,"text":"原住民機關及漁民團體定職。"},{"start":8723.928,"end":8726.73,"text":"好,這樣我們請高金素美召委"},{"start":8754.248,"end":8759.39,"text":"及有關機關代表的組成逗號,其中愚民代表及原住民代表的人數不得於"},{"start":8769.899,"end":8789.606,"text":"與委員總人數不得少於二分之一也就是說這個部分原名跟餘名的代表都要被充分被納入不知道徐宇貞委員在這樣子的文字的修訂在您的修正動議版本裏面同不同意?如果同意的話我們兩個就可以到時候再跟行政院再討論好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":8795.956,"end":8813.856,"text":"好 那我想要表達一下因為我來不及提那個動議那我想要表達一下我支持伍麗華委員跟蘇曉慧委員的版本就是有原住民代表以及相關利益團體的代表必須要納入然後如果有涉及原住民族的海域及土地的話"},{"start":8814.837,"end":8830.045,"text":"人主民族的代表應該要不得少於二分之一那我覺得審議會確實是這一次審議的重點就是他們是利害關係人應該要納入他們的聲音所以我支持原住民族以及相關利害團體的聲音應該要被納入謝謝"},{"start":8838.312,"end":8859.042,"text":"我在我的版本的第七條裡面其實在第二項的部分其實有寫到其實這個其中包括專家、學者、民間團體、代表及原住民等人數不得少於委員總人數的二分之一那其實我的版本是有把原住民三個字希望能夠放進去"},{"start":8859.844,"end":8877.938,"text":"那當然現在我剛才知道說還有會有考慮用第九條的方式來去處理原住民相關的問題我覺得這也是一個做法那我自己是覺得如果有第九條一個比較完整的去處理整體的原住民的參與尤其是參與跟能夠相關的這個相關的"},{"start":8881.861,"end":8896.909,"text":"參與這個決定或者是審議那我自己也贊成用一個第九條的方式來去處理相關原住民在這個法裡面統籌性的問題所以我不一定堅持我的版本但是前提是要有剛剛的那個第九條的增訂好 謝謝來看來張宏路委員來我們請主委說一下"},{"start":8906.028,"end":8906.048,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8919.195,"end":8944.225,"text":"我剛剛念過,等一下來看,如果我們有第九條的話,如果我們增列第九條,其實原住民就幾乎是百分之百。他就比審議會的人,因為諮商同意權嘛,諮商同意權的那個稅刑的過程,當然我這樣講是一種比喻,但是就是說一定要稅刑諮商同意權的踐行嘛,所以"},{"start":8944.445,"end":8951.968,"text":"審查委員王美惠等17審查委員王美惠等18審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等20審查委員王美惠等19"},{"start":8969.315,"end":8971.637,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":8989.028,"end":9014.573,"text":"當然因為說實在主要的海洋跟海域的這個主要活動者本來就是漁民嘛,漁業從業人員所以這個對他們來說屁股區的畫社其實對他們來說他們也最了解狀況那也對他們這個造成的損失也會最多所以我們覺得應該是要將這個漁民代表跟原住民代表剛剛高金委員有講嘛我們就是占二分之一因為其實我們是最了解海域的狀況也對影響最多"},{"start":9017.352,"end":9040.427,"text":"來,咱們高薪高委員好,謝謝,謝謝主席雖然這個有關於原住民那麼重要的法案只有我一個人在這裡原住民的代表只有我一個人在但是我還是要捍衛我的立場我欣慰海委會主委是第九條有真的是把原住民基本法的精神放在這裡我欣慰我也"},{"start":9041.499,"end":9064.905,"text":"站同但是既然你第九條可以放原基法的部分我們還回到剛剛在所有的法條裡面的會商那麼你改成會同就應該沒有意見然後第二件事情第九條你們是必須依照原住民族基本法的規定辦理的時候呢這裡其實並沒有講到我們的人數要多少的比例參與所以這一條我們談到的是"},{"start":9066.425,"end":9066.545,"text":"人擬具"},{"start":9084.969,"end":9113.18,"text":"總數二分之一或三分之二以及會商是不是要改成會同還有就是說裡面分享原住民與漁民代表等加起來要不要超過二分之一這幾題是不是我們保留讓我們有更多的時間來跟委員說明再進一步的溝通好,這樣我們第七條的保留"},{"start":9118.332,"end":9135.043,"text":"我們現在來處理高清專委的增訂第七條之一的修正動議。在我們本本地特定第三頁的,大家看看有什麼意見。"},{"start":9148.837,"end":9150.438,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":9174.15,"end":9196.815,"text":"請召委提這個因此動議你的意見如何來,修正動議。跟大會報告,就是說,整體的設計,海保法的設計,權限當然就是歸中央的原因,是因為它需要,第一個,它需要非常巨大的能量才有辦法做這件事。"},{"start":9197.575,"end":9224.202,"text":"例如說我要做生物多樣性調查我要做生物的熱區的調查這些科學的調查你要有團隊的能力要有專家的能力然後又需要很大的能量你才能夠有調查做依據去決定要不要化射所以我們會認為說地方政府要有這樣的量能是非常難以達到的"},{"start":9225.171,"end":9248.157,"text":"另外第二個是他必須處理非常複雜的利害關係方的折衝也就是說漁民的權益、原住民的權益還有產業的問題還有生態保育各方面的這種非常複雜的折衝的課題在裡面"},{"start":9251.378,"end":9265.582,"text":"一方面是量能,一方面是則衝的行政負擔也是量能的一部分,這個是量能。另外就是,如果所有的地方政府也都可以來劃設庇護區的時候,"},{"start":9269.22,"end":9271.962,"text":"那誰來統整整體我們海洋庇護區畫社的這個總體的畫社的權限這個時候我們又必須去處理那中央跟地方權限之下不同意見時候又要怎麼辦"},{"start":9290.516,"end":9299.981,"text":"所以它是變成：它會變成是一個高度複雜的課題。主委,在這,因為大家這個是說大家這樣探討起來的問題流出來,跟你們的解說跟要怎麼去定,所以在內這來說實在委員大家都很認真、很努力。跟我們高層召委也說,因為剛才的問題都解決了,"},{"start":9315.768,"end":9333.06,"text":"所謂的修正動議裏面的政廳第7條之一,依舊沒要處理了。因為第7條我們會處理的話,我這個就不堅持,好不好?好,謝謝,謝謝各位。我們麻煩我們的委員,限告有169頁。"},{"start":9337.148,"end":9357.662,"text":"我們主理楊瓊瓊委員及羅廷偉委員及臺灣民眾黨委員提案第10條的委員高津、趙薇、蘇梅所提案的第9條請看大家有什麼意見。169人。"},{"start":9362.489,"end":9364.971,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":9389.571,"end":9414.52,"text":"麻煩大家再審過1871頁第8條的,跟我們看所有的委員有什麼意見,跟在這兩邊有修正同意第8條的高清素美召委在第3頁的,有立法委員在第7頁的,跟"},{"start":9417.625,"end":9424.062,"text":"局部徐宇臻委員第15頁。今天看看有什麼意見可以出來討論。謝謝。"},{"start":9428.836,"end":9447.878,"text":"有關第八條的修正動議是增加應會同有關機關、原住民機關及漁會因為其實也希望說讓這些不然是原住民機關或各區域會都能夠充分的表達"},{"start":9448.579,"end":9452.08,"text":"等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〉來,鄭天才委員。"},{"start":9481.974,"end":9484.355,"text":"提到第一項海洋庇護區保育計劃之擬定涉及原住民族土地及海域者"},{"start":9502.205,"end":9523.088,"text":"中央主管機關應會商原住民族主管機關擬定涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地、海域及自然資源使審議前擬定機關應以當地原住民族或部落諮商並取得其同意。"},{"start":9523.949,"end":9547.363,"text":"一位行政院版的條文它只有說涉及原住民族土地及海域者中央主管機關因依原住民族基本法之規定辦理事實上這個就比較籠統事實上如果我們從海洋基本法"},{"start":9548.571,"end":9571.701,"text":"以及這個原住民族基本法兩個條文兩個法來去看的時候那實際上要落實這個兩個基本法必須在作用法裡面來做比較明確的一個做法所以我才會記在我的這個第八條的所提的草案裡面明定提到請參考這個第177頁以上"},{"start":9575.592,"end":9603.304,"text":"好,我們請李博義委員再來請我們高層召委謝謝,也是針對第8條在伍麗華委員提出的修正動議裡面的第5項他有寫到因與援助民族建立共同管理機制跟我們剛剛主委所提出來跟海委會剛剛所提出來的第9條這個精神還有這個文字是不是可以請主委這邊做一下說明"},{"start":9610.087,"end":9630.269,"text":"來,咱家告今早位。好,謝謝,謝謝主席。很多委員沒有來的,我們都會不處理他的版本。所以希望主席待會也宣布一下,好不好?那我們現在就這個行政院版本的第8條,也是我的這個修正理由的第10條,我們來看一下。"},{"start":9631.01,"end":9655.64,"text":"第十條裡面我講得很清楚就是一樣要會同原民會然後接著下來呢第一項海洋庇護區這個部分跟鄭天才委員的版本提的版本有點像我大概提一下我的內容就是說第一項海洋庇護區保育計畫的擬定只要是涉及到原住民族土地還有海域者中央主管機關應該要會同原住民族主管機關擬定"},{"start":9657.02,"end":9682.416,"text":"涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地、海域及自然資源的時候審議之前要擬定機關應該要跟當地原住民族或部落諮商並取得他的同意然後接下來就是另外一項就是因劃定海洋庇護區而當地原住民族受限制所生的損失應該要由中央主管機關匡列預算補償"},{"start":9684.997,"end":9694.442,"text":"這個意思也就是說我們被限制了以後應該要被寬裂補償的機制然後涉及到我們要劃設這些區域的時候應該要會同圓明會以上簡單的說明 謝謝來 我們委員跟什麼人還有意見沒有什麼意見我們請主委說明一下"},{"start":9708.746,"end":9726.311,"text":"謝謝,謝謝張磊,謝謝各位委員。原則上就是因為這一條也涉及會商跟會同,所以大概也是必須依序就是做保留啦。但是除此以外,我是想先再說明幾個細項的部分。就是說有關徐立正委員說的要看載在全國漁會刊物的部分。"},{"start":9727.071,"end":9730.213,"text":"兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17兩、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":9752.529,"end":9765.976,"text":"對,因為要登場是…我了解,就是說我們是會想說用負債決議或寫在立法說明,可能層次上,就是法律條文技術上面的那個層次上的考慮的問題。"},{"start":9766.957,"end":9771.879,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":9795.446,"end":9795.987,"text":"候議員主席候議員主席"},{"start":9816.404,"end":9834.055,"text":"對,我知道因為這一條當然也是會跟剛剛討論到的匯商跟匯銅其實是有高度的相關我想反答一下我這部分的看法雖然我知道會保留第一件事我當然很希望能夠要怎麼樣保障原住民跟"},{"start":9834.995,"end":9837.896,"text":"審查委員王美惠等17審查委員王美惠等17審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":9853.544,"end":9854.684,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":9874.369,"end":9876.09,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具"},{"start":9891.135,"end":9891.675,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":9914.804,"end":9932.2,"text":"好,謝謝我們感謝洪聖翰喔。我們這樣特別調的,就保留跟本席在這講解文化案的委員如果提修正動議沒在我們開會的時候,我們就沒要再討論,但列入公報紀錄,這樣好不好?"},{"start":9938.206,"end":9941.408,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":9959.138,"end":9960.159,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":9975.094,"end":9998.773,"text":"在法律的用詞用語上面用會商跟會同來講本來就是不一樣的意思對,會商只是商量同是必須彼此尊重然後涉及到原住民或漁民權益的部分那麼相關的主管機關應該就要極力的捍衛嘛所以我們在修訂、制定一個法的時候其實要把這個精神放在裡面"},{"start":9999.173,"end":10000.754,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":10029.053,"end":10031.194,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〉"},{"start":10056.582,"end":10061.089,"text":"支持的委員,說不定每一個都會替你們去打造一些你們困難的問題。因為你修法也要說大家都站在本身的立場,沒有大家浪費時間在這裡做什麼。"},{"start":10073.458,"end":10079.883,"text":"來,麻煩我們委員憲開1893的有楊瓊瓔委員及羅廷維委員及台灣民眾黨統團提案的第12條請大家看看有什麼意見可以開始討論"},{"start":10106.008,"end":10107.389,"text":"來請主委有什麼意見嗎來,要說明給大家委員聽。我們請那個署長說明一下。市長喔?哦,署長。來,署長來。呃,這些這些詳細的計畫其實相關的條文在前一條裡面應該已經都有包括。大同小異,所以。"},{"start":10135.299,"end":10142.045,"text":"這樣就不予採納。好,那我們就不予採納。這樣我們休訓五分鐘,再繼續來審。謝謝,大家辛苦。"},{"start":10161.664,"end":10170.717,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":10188.951,"end":10206.842,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期內政委員會第11屆第12會期內政委員王美惠等17立法院第12會期內政委員王美惠等17立法院第12會期內政委員王美惠等17立法院第12會期內政委員王美惠等17立法院第12會期內政委員王美惠等17立法院第12會期內政委員王美惠等17立法院第12會期內政委員"},{"start":10211.684,"end":10219.346,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10231.044,"end":10233.526,"text":"審查委員王美惠等17審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10247.237,"end":10254.139,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":10270.198,"end":10272.382,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":10278.692,"end":10290.537,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":10305.562,"end":10322.15,"text":"阿這裡前面九種他未來怎麼規劃分析我們其實就看不到那時候是希望說請他們說明清楚說未來會怎麼樣規劃"},{"start":10325.231,"end":10340.757,"text":"因為這個法可能會比較針對未來新設的地步去審理以後要發言還是要一個說那我們的建議是怎樣然後我們要幾個版本在哪裡修正或是新增"},{"start":10342.618,"end":10347.56,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員王美惠等17人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":10359.165,"end":10362.606,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10383.073,"end":10386.856,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查"},{"start":10412.793,"end":10413.833,"text":"這個比較奇怪就是他們"},{"start":10429.747,"end":10453.358,"text":"有一些人沒有提保密條款,但這個就支持院本證。還有這個,還有這個,第19條,就是說因為他現在的法條是主管機關,那就是會,然後其他人又再定的更明確是各級。"},{"start":10454.318,"end":10457.68,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10475.956,"end":10491.234,"text":"對,他直接這樣就好了。但是我們會希望說就是你最後地方,譬如說地方主管機關提的賦予計劃,你還是要讓中央主管機關核准。因為其實他就是只要依照這個原則就可以辦。"},{"start":10492.855,"end":10516.15,"text":"第二項是說主管機關以外的人要用這個辦所以等於是地方主管機關的話你看像地方主管機關以外的機關如果要辦他就要主管機關同意然後第一項的話他有會上中央主管機關這樣子啊我們會希望說就是要有核准啊"},{"start":10517.432,"end":10531.524,"text":"雖然他會傷害我會聽中央的沒有錯但是有核准比較像是過一個正式讓他們有一個審查程序因為各地方政府對於保育的概念其實落差蠻大的得意沒有他如果中央他就會寫中央"},{"start":10545.453,"end":10550.359,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":10560.43,"end":10571.752,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10583.795,"end":10586.418,"text":"有聽過中央的意見就是不要干涉太多"},{"start":10601.872,"end":10603.172,"text":"會限制太多。"},{"start":10626.458,"end":10634.561,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10661.609,"end":10670.114,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":10687.003,"end":10700.311,"text":"後面爭議也都沒有打,只是前面那幾條分會商會討論還有啊,支出環保團體有講到第28條就是說已經許可的他就要繼續核准到有效期限為止但就是"},{"start":10713.465,"end":10731.657,"text":"有時候那種生物調查它是滾動性,你可能會某一次調查才發現赫蘭旱這邊有一些珍貴的物種,那你以前已經核准的,你要不要再發現的時候趕快採取保育措施給它暫停或什麼,所以其他人有一些也會提說,就是看是不是可以...來,我們繼續來進行第九條的條文來討論"},{"start":10739.209,"end":10745.072,"text":"在18、95頁,18、95頁,看看有什麼問題,大家可以出來討論。我們在九條的修正動議,在九條的修正動議,在一本的第四頁,"},{"start":10779.532,"end":10792.6,"text":"大家看看第九條,該由召委理由秀節修正動議,在咱哋在本會議第四頁。"},{"start":10798.464,"end":10824.024,"text":"看有什麼問題院版的第9條就是我的說那東西的第11條啦吼第11條就是一樣就是中央主管機關要會同原住民族中央機關及其他有關經營一樣都是會同所以跟前面的政府不一樣 跟前面的政府不一樣 跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣跟前面的政府不一樣"},{"start":10824.404,"end":10834.697,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「海洋保育"},{"start":10846.004,"end":10871.866,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":10877.141,"end":10891.09,"text":"各款幾乎全部都是支持院版。我們再提高一條保留來。第二十條的。兩百十頁。兩百十頁。我們大家再看那些,再討論看那些。"},{"start":10902.403,"end":10905.965,"text":"這條大概17個版本,絕大多數都是同院版。我們沒有任何意見,我們就照行政版本來通過。再來,我們看第11條的225頁。"},{"start":10936.066,"end":10955.135,"text":"只有第一項是有13個版本相同,其他都是17個版本都同院版。但是,這樣,主委,是不是,這樣照院版通過?"},{"start":10956.564,"end":10966.774,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案、第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案、第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案、第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案、第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案、第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案、第二、繼續審查委員王美惠等18人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉"},{"start":10985.64,"end":10995.089,"text":"主席,針對第12條,我也是有修正動議的。我剛才要講而已,抱歉。因為修正動議第12條,徐宇貞委員有提出,"},{"start":10999.993,"end":11005.878,"text":"等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":11027.857,"end":11040.125,"text":"這一條一樣,因為它是屬於程序,我們也再來研議可行性,好嗎?我們保留一種…再來,12條保留,來,我們現在來處理委員賴瑞榮等提案第14條的,在243頁,大家看到嗎?"},{"start":11057.146,"end":11061.468,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":11090.054,"end":11109.979,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":11119.253,"end":11143.404,"text":"報告 報告委員我有修正綜藝第15條一樣的問題這是會同的來 那個修正綜藝第13條的高層召委他的一本在4頁的 跟徐綜委員一本港本的在16頁 大家看看有什麼好討論嗎"},{"start":11145.945,"end":11166.523,"text":"我剛才做主委,我剛才的意見都不能說。主委要...主席,就是我的部分也是屬於...主席,我沒辦法說。就是主管機關因會...中央主管機關因會同其他目的事業主管機關跟原住民機關,我也是增列這個部分。這樣喔,來看什麼人的意見嗎?"},{"start":11171.854,"end":11194.246,"text":"如此之下,主席會議的意見如何?這條真的是想要懇請委員說,這條如果是會同的話,大概就卡住什麼事情都很難推動,因為非常龐雜,細細縮縮很多,有些實在是很細小的事情。"},{"start":11195.186,"end":11203.254,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":11218.53,"end":11219.49,"text":"兩百六十五頁兩百六十五頁"},{"start":11257.765,"end":11258.826,"text":"兩百八十五人兩百六十五誰二、六、五"},{"start":11278.854,"end":11285.462,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":11299.978,"end":11300.859,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":11319.345,"end":11323.629,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案"},{"start":11336.252,"end":11354.721,"text":"謝謝主席有關我的第14條的修正動議是針對在調查機關法人、團體或保育人員進行調查或實施各項保育措施應客尊正當法律的程序以符合比例原則之方式為之"},{"start":11357.771,"end":11381.947,"text":"來主委謝謝委員 謝謝札委跟委員報告就是說這個是我們執行公權力的時候就是一定要做到的事情但是如果說我們要特別在這個時候再提醒的話我們是建議說就在立法說明裡面去把它特別再寫在立法說明再叮嚀一次這樣子那否則的話這個大概就是說我們在"},{"start":11382.567,"end":11396.146,"text":"在執行公權利的時候都是一定要做到的這樣子。既然我覺得既然對對既然可以做得到的話是不是就把它寫下去既然已經都本來就是這樣就把它列下去好嗎?"},{"start":11397.189,"end":11416.386,"text":"我們聽一下謝副的意見是立法技術的問題本來一定要做的東西法律體系有的東西要不要寫在母法的文字我們一般是說這是屬於特別叮嚀特別叮嚀我們一般是寫在立法說明"},{"start":11417.595,"end":11419.356,"text":"這是我的認知,不過我們還是尊重專業部門。"},{"start":11438.026,"end":11457.637,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位委員。針對整個行政調查過程當中應該遵循了程序法上或是一些憲法上的誡命的要求,包括比例原則。其實在行政程序法裡面其實有相關的規定,包括比例原則都有規定。等於是說,假設這裡沒有規定,並不代表行政機關就不受其拘束。"},{"start":11458.326,"end":11484.843,"text":"當然在立法基礎上是盡量避免跌床駕屋不過到底要不要認為說他這邊有在特與丁寧的必要說這邊可能有高度的違法性的可能所以特別在叮囑主管機關在做有時候會有這樣的立法律存在可是並不是很常見原則上如果在母法裡面在行政程序法裡面對行政機關的相關的執法作為有明確的規定的話如果認為有在特與丁寧的必要"},{"start":11485.283,"end":11485.863,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":11508.94,"end":11533.215,"text":"主席不好意思主席是徐宜珍對,因為其實剛我想對法務單位來說也覺得沒有意見嘛那其實主要是因為如果調查機構他其實非常了解法令我想這沒問題可是後面還有法人、團體或保育人員他們可能不是那麼清楚的法律的狀況所以我們是這邊把他明定之那讓他們有一個有遵守的一個標準這個我看兩句這樣喔來來"},{"start":11539.704,"end":11539.724,"text":"第14條"},{"start":11565.549,"end":11580.047,"text":"那就照...好,來來來好,來,洪聖岸好我沒有不禁的意思因為因為第14條最後還是有一個會同會商的問題喔"},{"start":11581.761,"end":11583.922,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":11615.016,"end":11637.71,"text":"主委現在是對第14條就是因客尊正當法律的程序這個文字上是沒有問題就是徐宇貞提的這個修正版本但是他對於後面那個會同有關機關及援助民族機關定制那個部分他有問題所以呢我覺得這個我們就針對那個徐宇貞委員的這個版本我們先保留一下好不好對第14條啦什麼"},{"start":11642.032,"end":11661.681,"text":"對阿,全體要保留阿就是我們待會要回來再討論的時候就針對會同這個來討論那前面就不要再討論,這樣比較快啦好不好,謝謝好,那我們第14條我們就先暫時保留好不好"},{"start":11675.606,"end":11681.267,"text":"會議名稱．立法院第15會議名稱．立法院第15會議名稱"},{"start":11696.493,"end":11713.513,"text":"我這條的修正動議是在增加在使用人或管理人提供往返交通工具所需要的費用由指派機關支付就是這個就是針對相關人員進行調查研究的時候他搭乘的船舶所需要的費用由指定機關支付"},{"start":11717.156,"end":11721.939,"text":"主管機關我們主委我想說明就是說這個其實是刻意責任的問題就是說大家共同要承擔責任的時候我們刻意責任那實務上我們沒有規定的時候我們反而可以協商說那我要不要幫你分攤一點"},{"start":11740.913,"end":11742.434,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":11763.373,"end":11764.654,"text":"五、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":11794.059,"end":11797.942,"text":"離岸封店業者我們怎麼可能是我們刻意的保育計畫裡面有他們應該做的事"},{"start":11817.378,"end":11821.039,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":11844.77,"end":11846.191,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16"},{"start":11875.715,"end":11888.66,"text":"來討論說辦法裡面應考量就是依可負擔成能力的問題著於考量這個費用這樣子我們來試寫看看這個部分大概主要是針對漁船的部分"},{"start":11892.984,"end":11896.107,"text":"第三項徐益臻委員是比較堅持海洋保育的觀察員他在執行觀察監測和收集資料這樣的任務的時候所需要的費用是不是只派機關支付"},{"start":11921.307,"end":11923.108,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「海洋保育法草案案 案 判決 判決 判決 判決 判決 判決"},{"start":11942.28,"end":11965.514,"text":"是不是應該就是所需的費用是指派機關要支付那請主委也回應一下這個部分他們要做這些事情的錢是什麼是他們自己熱情、熱心來做還是你們會指派他任務去做如果是你們指派他任務去做當然就應該費用由你們來出啊那他的熱情會維持多久"},{"start":11965.854,"end":11988.528,"text":"他們的薪水是我們付,沒錯。現在是說,譬如說我要去看離岸豐電產業,離岸豐電這個業者他有沒有什麼樣的行為是我們要監督的。結果呢,我當然是搭他們的工作船。那變成我要付他錢。那請問除了搭工作船,會不會有機會搭到漁船?"},{"start":11989.088,"end":11990.029,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":12005.885,"end":12019.814,"text":"對,我們來試寫好不好。就是說這一條的條文還是遭怨版但是有關這個部分我們來試寫附帶決議我們後續...對,就是我主要是針對說如果他們需要搭到的是漁船那個漁船應該是要有...我們如果去搭漁船就應該要付費嘛"},{"start":12020.754,"end":12022.615,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":12050.358,"end":12076.539,"text":"喂喂喂好謝謝主席對於條文的部分我沒有意見附帶決議的方式但既然要做附帶決議因為這一條裡面我們有些委員的版本是講說未來你總是要有海保警察嘛對不對你這有一個明確的執法機關跟一個專責單位你才有辦法落實這件事情那當然你如果我可以理解尊重說海委會講說你要一步到位可能有一些困難但至少我們要知道有一些相關的規劃期程那既然是用附帶決議的方式是不是也把這一部分的相關規劃跟進度在附帶決議裡面做一個交代"},{"start":12077.503,"end":12078.744,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":12101.328,"end":12101.608,"text":"韓國瑜等16人擬具"},{"start":12120.863,"end":12122.725,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":12147.583,"end":12171.468,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等193人擬具這條跟委員報告就是說大概就是高度的跟院版一致都是幾乎就是13、13、13版本都一樣16版本都一樣這樣子"},{"start":12176.964,"end":12177.744,"text":"六、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具"},{"start":12203.893,"end":12206.055,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":12228.354,"end":12228.615,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":12237.5,"end":12240.402,"text":"主管機關為了促進海洋保育、海洋生物多樣性保護及永續利用,得自行或透過國際組織 進行國際合作,並對人民、民間團體"},{"start":12261.178,"end":12262.781,"text":"等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":12273.764,"end":12285.81,"text":"政府為促進海洋庇護區之劃捨應與漁業權人之商並取得其同意,受限制所生的損失應由中央主管機關寬列預算補償制。前項的補償辦法就是由主管機關會同有關機關定制。"},{"start":12296.001,"end":12319.917,"text":"好,謝謝我們的徐宜貞委員以及高金昭委所提出來的兩個修正動議大家還有沒有意見沒有意見我請主管單位來報告補償的部分可能就是在第二章回去那裡保留的條文裡面去處理放在這裡的那個體力"},{"start":12321.952,"end":12348.658,"text":"似乎不是在這裡。那這一條主要是講國際合作。對,只是談那個國際合作。所以我們高級委員那個跟原住民各族也進行國際合作的那個部分我們可以加進來。沒有啊,你的第18條有寫給予獎勵或補助。對啊,對啊,對啊。對,所以我想說。其實國際合作的部分。對對對,所以你既然。可以加進來。對啊,對啊,應該沒有特別意見吧。但是許委員的這個第二項的這個諮商同意權"},{"start":12349.638,"end":12351.239,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠等17一、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":12372.074,"end":12399.922,"text":"所以主委您說的是哪一個部分?對我知道我說您說是在哪裡會有對我知道我說您說的是這個部分應該是會在哪個地方有就是第二章我們要談補償的時候放到第二章我們在另行我們另行再來討論就是說這個部分如果要處理的時候我們另行再來討論OK那就是在那我們就一併在第七條來這邊處理是嗎?"},{"start":12403.086,"end":12428.593,"text":"十四條十四條不一樣哦十四條十四條不一樣哦十四條其實你是針對就是保育跟調查方面所衍生的的這個補償所以要那個來我們看一下第十四條對你是針對保育跟各項的資源調查所衍生的補償"},{"start":12430.333,"end":12434.635,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員"},{"start":12455.114,"end":12456.074,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":12484.38,"end":12486.821,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":12510.003,"end":12512.105,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":12531.152,"end":12532.232,"text":"參與國際交流活動給予獎勵或補助,加了一個原住民各族。"},{"start":12555.539,"end":12555.739,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":12580.524,"end":12594.87,"text":"主管機關會促進海洋保育、海洋生物多樣性保護及有序利用,得自行或透過國際組織、學術研究機構進行國際合作,並對人民或民間團體、原住民的各族參與國際交流活動,給予獎勵或補助。"},{"start":12598.471,"end":12599.432,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具"},{"start":12620.368,"end":12642.316,"text":"主委對這個是我OK吧好那我們18條就照高薪召委就修正通過修正通過好那我們就修正通過了現在第19條312頁好那我們現在處理第19條第19條312頁"},{"start":12654.997,"end":12665.83,"text":"來,第19條的修正動議有高津叉委還有徐以貞委員原版的第18條那我的19條我的21條一樣也是會同"},{"start":12671.711,"end":12675.293,"text":"一、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉"},{"start":12699.331,"end":12703.314,"text":"我們現在處理委員的提案。第326頁。我們就不理財納。"},{"start":12728.14,"end":12753.968,"text":"那大家因為沒有到場那我們就不予採納好不好好謝謝來各位分開327有委員的提案那委員沒有來我們也是不予採納好不好"},{"start":12757.958,"end":12772.831,"text":"三百二十七好,那我們就不予採納了好,現在我們處理台灣民眾黨第26條三百二十八頁"},{"start":12784.429,"end":12799.803,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第17次全體委員會"},{"start":12812.059,"end":12827.226,"text":"好,那我們現在處理332頁第26條委員提案沒有來我們就不予採納,好那第20條333頁"},{"start":12835.454,"end":12836.655,"text":"二、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具楊瓊瓔等17人擬具"},{"start":12855.09,"end":12882.909,"text":"我希望把這個法環降到新台幣一萬元以上20萬元以下然後另外就是漁業從業人物入海洋庇護區的核心區且無重大違規情勢經勸導使離者不處罰因為其實這個海洋保育法對於漁民的處罰其實比例相對偏高我可以舉個例來說以當時這個日月光高雄場頭拍這個"},{"start":12885.17,"end":12909.259,"text":"投牌廢水處罰的罰款也不過才60萬對照於日月光的營業額2013年是2198億他也不過罰個60萬對於漁民來說他辛苦工作了這麼久結果只是一不小心誤入就可能要被罰50萬所以我覺得不符合那個比例原則而且這樣對漁民的損害也相當"},{"start":12910.179,"end":12911.019,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":12933.869,"end":12963.052,"text":"是,跟委員報告就是說我們總體在罰則的這一章呢我們有看到委員們體恤比較弱勢的違法的對象那也有考慮到就是說我們的上限也要顧及有時候是比較大型的企業所以我們每一條都有下修他的罰則的地板然後也有提高他的天花板"},{"start":12963.786,"end":12970.194,"text":"那如果逐條來看我們這一條的話我們是下修到五萬就是"},{"start":12972.346,"end":12973.487,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":12997.998,"end":13013.517,"text":"如果一而再再而三每一次全部都不罰的話我們會考量到我們的執法的量能跟陸域不一樣海上的執法跟陸域的執法不同陸域的執法它的見景率是非常高的"},{"start":13014.238,"end":13016.36,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":13030.994,"end":13050.884,"text":"審查委員王美惠等17審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委員王美惠等19審查委"},{"start":13053.783,"end":13077.423,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請李博義委員對 我是其實蠻贊同徐宇峥委員的說法就是漁民如果誤入的話應該要給他機會但是我們能不能現在就做一些修正看怎麼樣可以大家接受的方式另外2013年日月關被高雄市政府因為水污法罰了60萬但另外高雄市政府環保局是用不當得利跟他求償一役"},{"start":13078.584,"end":13083.349,"text":"所以說這個法則跟這個歷史的還原我們還是在這裡說明一下。謝謝。"},{"start":13088.222,"end":13092.446,"text":"二、繼續審查委員李柏映等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":13115.723,"end":13120.587,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":13142.065,"end":13162.872,"text":"所以我是覺得就是誤入其實就是一個,它就是不小的概念等一下我有問題主席,現在我覺得大家都保護移民啦,但是像剛才徐議長委員說的說移民不會跳地,經常去擁擠,但是你如果經常有這個問題也要煩耶"},{"start":13167.728,"end":13168.669,"text":"五、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":13188.137,"end":13210.792,"text":"我覺得站在民意代表的立場都有看到弱勢的那些人跟你們在這邊是怕說每天每天有人破壞沒辦法去勤奮也沒辦法但是你要收一個大家都能共識的東西不要說都沒有跟我們相同的說你要動作才能夠看台這樣也不好以上"},{"start":13213.613,"end":13239.42,"text":"所以我同意美惠委員講的這個文字看怎麼樣就是說總不能每一次因為他這個談到的是核心區嘛核心區啦所以可是比較重要一點所以呢美惠委員說就怕就是有心的人我們當然不會把愚民當作是這個小偷但是有心的人我們還是所以主委您看看這個文字上要怎麼修可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":13241.227,"end":13266.242,"text":"我們就變成先保留我們再來研議看看怎麼設計好不好好原則上方向我們瞭解我們會朝向這裡來規劃設置我們會請法務部門先處理文字修訂好再讓大家來看第二十條保留好那現在我們處理第二十一條337頁"},{"start":13271.288,"end":13294.582,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13294.722,"end":13317.197,"text":"然後政院的版本是未經許可從事如果這些禁止行為的時候要處刑來避6萬以上30元以下如果按照剛剛海委會有提到的第9條原住民基本法的規定的話那對於傳統文化基於生活所需的利用行為應該就不在這個範圍之內好不好這個就是這個有基於剛剛"},{"start":13323.242,"end":13343.876,"text":"剛剛這個主委有提了尊重到原住民族的這個生活的部分所以以上就是提這個建議是不是按照我的修正版本的第23條後面有寫但是原住民基於傳統文化既以生活所需的利用的行為不再實現我再講一次這是緩鬆區好 謝謝"},{"start":13346.465,"end":13347.766,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":13375.35,"end":13375.971,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":13389.677,"end":13405.876,"text":"有關於下修到哪裡我們是建議說下修到3萬因為違法行為有時候其實他一做就很嚴重的比如說他不當補勞那結果我罰幾千塊"},{"start":13409.539,"end":13435.874,"text":"所以我們認為說我們往下修但是要修到一個真的可以惡煮可以惡煮嚴重的違法行為各種違法行為為領域所以我們是建議說下修成為3萬然後上線的話我們採委員們大概的意見就是上線的天花板我們是採120萬元這樣來建議"},{"start":13439.175,"end":13439.596,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":13460.354,"end":13484.568,"text":"現在主委回答的是只有徐宇珍委員的這個金額的不同但是對於我的並沒有說明就是原住民藉由傳統文化藉由生活所需利用的行為不在此限你們接受這個部分嗎這個部分我們是不是回到那個保育計畫裡面就允許的時候這裡就不會罰對那邊如果是徐育珍的時候保育計畫是在第幾條不好意思"},{"start":13485.268,"end":13488.009,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":13505.455,"end":13507.017,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":13521.255,"end":13528.017,"text":"我再解釋給你聽我公告說你聽這個水污法只能裁罰到60萬最高啦所以當時這個環保局就是用不當得利來跟他索賠但這跟我們不當當場委員會的狀況是一樣的我們面對的是財團的律師啦"},{"start":13540.681,"end":13557.835,"text":"所以說面對財團的律師當初不但做了停工那也做了這個懲罰之後那日月光才有相關的改善改善是我們要的案做一項說明跟本法無關對我只是剛剛來謝謝李博義我其實就在因為剛剛李博義委員有一些說明還原真相好謝謝"},{"start":13564.199,"end":13587.033,"text":"謝謝主席本期想請教主委因為這一個法則它上面有寫未經許可所以有很多東西是可以申請的對嗎所以這一塊你可能要說明清楚一點可以啊我們之所以這樣寫其實就是說除了一些不行以外其它是可以的那剛剛高經委員講的那原住民的他如果是一些祭典或什麼他們的"},{"start":13588.875,"end":13611.913,"text":"對,所以我們就申請過8條。不需要,就是我們到第8條去把它當作是許可項目。這裡就不必寫了。對,對,對,對。那如果這樣的話,如果說高級委員召委同意我們是第8條處理,那這裡就不需要保留。我們只需要把那個金額有共識,其實就可以過啊。"},{"start":13617.698,"end":13634.084,"text":"繼而是徐宇珍委員我是生活記憶這個受限制的部分所以我同意如果我的部分回到第8條的話我同意所以我現在是回過頭來要講金額就是說我們本來上限也是低的"},{"start":13634.984,"end":13636.845,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":13651.912,"end":13654.213,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":13668.198,"end":13696.178,"text":"對其實當然我想違法的行為當然該罰啦但是我是覺得你要依照比例原則因為對於漁民來說他並不是財團動不動就是用這麼高的法則而且本來院版才好像只有30現在你還要參考另外的版本提高我覺得這已經對於漁民真的是非常他本來的你本來的院版漁民就已經反彈很大了所以那部分我們恢復為院版那跟我們報告我覺得院版還是偏高啦因為我覺得還是要符合比例原則因為對於漁民的收入來說"},{"start":13697.439,"end":13721.63,"text":"委員王美惠委員主席,在這裡我覺得她未經許可就是你知道這個地方又不能進去啦你又要進去當然這個是指說法環嘛我現在的意思就是說這都知道她的這個區域已經是不能進去,你又要進去因為我覺得這個法框"},{"start":13724.051,"end":13727.095,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":13739.585,"end":13763.727,"text":"好謝謝這樣我建議這樣好不好儲新台那個剛剛主委也說嘛齁儲新台幣3萬元以上你們的願板是30萬元以下嘛對不對對啊因為您剛剛講到要120萬就嚇死大家了齁所以是不是則正話儲新台幣3萬元以上然後30元以下30萬元以下不要120萬元"},{"start":13765.648,"end":13769.031,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":13796.607,"end":13813.328,"text":"愚民不會罰等一下等一下委員我們請那個等一下我們請那個署長說明一下好不好因為我們有一個我們有一個緩衝區免申請的條款來等一下等一下等一下我再說一下可不可以你具體的說明一下"},{"start":13813.829,"end":13836.131,"text":"因為我們現在是聚焦徐委員聚焦在漁船、漁民當然我們也是希望漁民的部分有個機會不要罰太高不要罰太高第一點但是面對惡意的比如說啦抽砂船比如說其他哪一些船舶必須要重罰的可不可以請主委也說明一下來讓大家知道有大概有哪一些樣台"},{"start":13837.532,"end":13857.197,"text":"在裁罰基準的時候可以去處理這些比例的問題還有就是行政罰罰對於弱勢者本來就可以打折這個等一下我們請有時候是其實是罰到二分之一喔那是行政罰罰就有的喔都可以試用喔所以我們是不是請那個謝副來說明一下"},{"start":13859.276,"end":13875.011,"text":"好 我們留心聽在說明之前我覺得你們還有會要說明就直接很具體比如說你講說審核 審酌的各委員的版本你認為上下120萬什麼樣的行為會罰120萬嘛你就講的比較清楚一點嘛因為漁民擔心的是你萬一沒有明確說明之後聽說抽殺"},{"start":13876.811,"end":13877.592,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":13899.895,"end":13908.048,"text":"所以你待會 你們現在做一下說明然後如果有裁判基準的時候如果你現在拿得出來是比較容易過關的免得大家在這邊沒完沒了好不好我表達一下意見謝謝"},{"start":13910.669,"end":13936.367,"text":"不過這邊剛剛跟許委員提到就是說其實我們前面在緩衝區的時候針對才不海洋生物就是剛剛提到跟漁民有關係的部分經過主管機關這邊其實同意已經就免申請許可那換句話說其實緩衝區就是希望我們在核心區高度管制之後讓漁民可以在緩衝區享受那些溢出效應所以目前在緩衝區跟永續利用區對於漁民的限制是非常少的"},{"start":13936.767,"end":13959.377,"text":"那換句話說,漁民會因為誤入而處罰,基本上其實情況應該是很少的,或者說再有去理由去審問。第十條。第十條就有提到說,符合中央主管機關公告,就那時候我們會會商漁業署去公告哪一些其實已經得到許可的可以繼續持續作業。"},{"start":13960.762,"end":13983.677,"text":"因為其實這樣的法令定定都相對模糊啦那就像剛剛牛委員也特別提到你就是你到底怎麼樣的規範才你因為我知道主委的意思就是說可能是針對惡意的比如說抽砂船可是問題是你同時也規範到一些這個弱勢的漁民那到底要怎麼樣確定清楚這個部分我覺得這樣否則的話大家一看到法環"},{"start":13988.3,"end":13992.503,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉"},{"start":14024.48,"end":14038.611,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":14047.714,"end":14061.385,"text":"三萬以上、三十萬以下的罰款。第二十二條行政委員是三千以上、五萬以下。主席。"},{"start":14072.762,"end":14075.185,"text":"主席,這條我認為違反第11條內的規定,還有13條第一項公告的數項出發新代表5萬至30萬的法官本席領委院辦的3萬"},{"start":14093.283,"end":14100.166,"text":"議員五、繼續審查委員王美惠等15人擬具議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":14109.094,"end":14126.552,"text":"每天每天都發生這個問題,根本就都沒有前提的作用。我覺得要去看這個法官,因為我覺得這個我有一點點意見,來請主委你回答一下。好來,來我們主管單位回答一下。"},{"start":14130.247,"end":14149.912,"text":"在永續利用區其實很大的範疇都是在允許範圍了捕撈生物的這個部分所以會去觸法而受罰的就多半都已經是違法的樣態是比較嚴重的部分"},{"start":14153.02,"end":14156.663,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":14177.475,"end":14201.885,"text":"所以是不是等這個樣態就是確定之後有列出來了,文字上有列出來第11條已經列清楚了,就是我剛剛唸的樣態啊樣態就是我剛剛唸的啊因為違反的就是那些事啊就我禁止你做這些事,你又做那些事那哪些事呢?就是我剛剛唸的這些事那這些都不是漁民會做的事所以這個不是在罰他們這不是壞漁民的啦,是壞壞一個人的啦"},{"start":14206.77,"end":14215.461,"text":"主委那這條罰款的這部分是不是也要保留?"},{"start":14223.671,"end":14236.763,"text":"我們當然是希望能夠通過啦,因為法制限平衡...因為我覺得移民要保護自己的法律,你也要保護啊你移民保護不正確,要不然這是惡劣的,這樣都不需要修養、研發嘛"},{"start":14242.418,"end":14244.799,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〉第二十二條我們先保留"},{"start":14271.467,"end":14298.204,"text":"來現在進行23條大概347頁23條有我們習以珍委員楊瓊瑛委員的修正東西楊瓊瑛沒來我們就不處理我想這跟前面幾條一樣所以等一下就一起來那個放"},{"start":14301.803,"end":14309.83,"text":"二、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉"},{"start":14340.2,"end":14350.249,"text":"主席羅廷偉麻煩你,我也有提案沒有啦,是提案,很多提案沒有,因為是提案,現在是修正動議"},{"start":14357.718,"end":14378.851,"text":"二十四條的行為比較不是愚民的行為,比較會是宗教的行為啦,譬如說就是去放生還有原住民的部分啦,所以抱歉我在6月24條,也就是我的修正動議的第26條,那個自行辦理婦孕的措施者"},{"start":14379.651,"end":14380.172,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":14404.772,"end":14408.617,"text":"這個部分主委有意見的話我們還是回到那個第8條那邊來去討論好 謝謝"},{"start":14413.656,"end":14438.613,"text":"報告委員就是說差別就是高金委員說的這個部分要不要列入這個我們會同意那另外所以剩下的就是徐委員的3萬跟我們院版的5萬對那這個就是放生行為啦那這個部分我們尊重委員會放生的行為我們大概最嚴重的要罰3萬還是5萬我們比較尊重委員"},{"start":14439.926,"end":14463.284,"text":"好 那就取這個徐宇峥委員版本跟我的版本好 然後把它列為文字好嗎 那聽問你有在這一條裡面嗎沒有 好 OK但是我尊重這個高金委員跟徐宇峥委員謝謝 所以政院版的第24條那個我的修正版本的26條跟徐宇峥委員的修正版本的部分文字我們把它"},{"start":14463.884,"end":14466.905,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案。"},{"start":14493.412,"end":14496.414,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":14522.509,"end":14523.73,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":14538.579,"end":14552.43,"text":"對阿 跟你說真的去放生 你看你那裡一般姿勢嘛呢不過這一條是不是他寫自行辦理復育嘛 那就是放生嗎?對 他是復育跟放生一樣嗎?"},{"start":14556.829,"end":14574.052,"text":"你的富裕跟放生有沒有一樣?因為現在美惠委員,其實我也同意他啦,如果放生的話,這件事不太願意啦。放生者都認為他們是富裕啦,他包含在那個...對,那所以這個人質你要怎麼...美惠委員擔心的就是放生啦,而且我們以...富裕的時候,大家都在你介紹說,我看他這樣要...亂丟啦"},{"start":14581.834,"end":14604.839,"text":"並且我們會罰的是下列具體行為請委員看到19條我們有寫出來這罰1萬到3萬就是違反這一條嘛那違反這一條他的作為是人工富裕設施投放海洋動物的培育或野放所以都放在裡面啦富裕跟"},{"start":14605.919,"end":14609.621,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":14635.814,"end":14637.595,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":14663.137,"end":14678.366,"text":"所以野放應該要重罰自行辦理富裕他是有最後查到以後是可以對環境是有幫助的那就算了那就一到三萬那我覺得還可以野放完全跟富裕是不能夠相提並論的"},{"start":14681.081,"end":14684.483,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":14713.044,"end":14735.216,"text":"另外請教主委,就是說如果他捕獲到那種海歸,他必須要再也放回去嗎?那個就不算嘛,對不對?對,所以說這個部分,大概我的意思是指這個部分。對,這個不算。那如果這樣的話,我們能不能就維持願版,就是上限是五萬,免得有的委員認為……"},{"start":14737.256,"end":14761.225,"text":"五萬也是活動的一個成本借一個場地也差不多三萬五萬啊我們這幾年為了這野放的事情媒體不斷的報導我很多的民眾對這個野放實在是沒辦法接受你在對的地方來做放生我們叫做富裕我可以接受你在錯的地方放錯的物種導致"},{"start":14762.225,"end":14774.932,"text":"一放下去馬上翻白肚的也有一放下去馬上造成環境的這個失衡的也有外來種的清洗也有所以我覺得3到5萬對不起我都覺得不夠"},{"start":14776.431,"end":14795.218,"text":"所以錯誤的野放跟富裕這是兩回事我們支持富裕所以不小心沒申請富裕一到三萬可以接受但是所謂的野放不管是小心跟不小心我們都應該要重罰因為它已經大大影響到整個生態主委是不是那個富裕三公一一萬一三萬"},{"start":14800.46,"end":14808.024,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":14829.012,"end":14844.943,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":14860.157,"end":14861.699,"text":"委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":14868.427,"end":14880.417,"text":"美惠所講的5萬至10萬,大家有沒有意見?我講不一定啦,不然我們要折衷一個...好,沒意見啦,你也看我那年金有多少到今天這天,我請你去美惠委員會長的版本是多少?10萬,10萬最下限,5萬以上,5萬以上以10萬以下。好,我講你過去你不要給我加2萬。"},{"start":14894.867,"end":14895.688,"text":"五、繼續審查委員王美惠等15"},{"start":14925.707,"end":14948.159,"text":"五到十五喔五萬以上十五以下你是要跟他你是覺得我剛剛稱讚他你也想被稱讚對不對五到十五好啦好啦好啦可以吧五到十五好啊好啦這樣好了這樣好了要做生意的人要賺這個沒良心的人好那我們就五到十五好不好"},{"start":14948.519,"end":14952.4,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉"},{"start":14982.125,"end":15006.145,"text":"報告主席政院版的第25條是我的修正動物第27條在27條裡面我特別講到就是前項海洋保育的講習課程就是應該要包含原住民族的知識以及原住民族生物多樣性的課程那目前委員會裡面其實對於我剛剛還是講到我們的族人在這邊生活了6000"},{"start":15007.706,"end":15034.223,"text":"問你以上我們有非常豐富的知識我們的海洋民族他對於保護包括阿米族包括達烏族他對於保護海洋的這些其實他有非常豐富的知識跟他的實際的經驗所以在我們講海洋保育講習課程的時候是不是也應該要把原住民族的知識還有我們的生物多樣性的了解也放在課程裡面我想這個應該不影響謝謝"},{"start":15036.104,"end":15053.607,"text":"好謝謝我們高金委員提出的修正動議還有我們習以珍委員提出的修正動議當然楊瓊瓔委員不在我們就不討論針對第25條的部分我是就本來要除以新台幣3000至15000條降到2000至10000元以下的罰款請主管單位"},{"start":15065.631,"end":15071.796,"text":"議員王美惠等17議員王美惠等17"},{"start":15082.145,"end":15083.286,"text":"徐宇貞委員新台幣2000-10000元,院版3000元。"},{"start":15113.015,"end":15117.96,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":15135.675,"end":15136.175,"text":"請審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":15167.602,"end":15190.962,"text":"主席還有各位委員其實剛剛討論是一連串是有關行政罰款的金額的部分有關的部分我來這邊做一個報告跟說明首先剛剛主委提到的2000元的罰款的部分會不會變成不罰其實在行政法裡面是規定如果你的罰款最高限額是三千元以下的時候如果情節輕微的時候其實主管金額有個裁量權我可以選擇不罰"},{"start":15192.824,"end":15209.145,"text":"這是在違罪不舉的一個行政法法上的一個特殊的規定今天動的是最低限所以不會落到這個規範裡面去那另外其實我剛剛在委員們在討論法案進行的時候其實就有想要講也藉著機會再談一下就是說"},{"start":15209.995,"end":15236.146,"text":"其實在院版的草案裡面其實整個罰則規定其實是有它的法律位階的它是從重到輕去排列那我看到委員們也都發表了很多高見我都很佩服那有作用於愚民的有作用於放任行為的、有惡害性的有調高的、有降低的那我這邊只是在也本於全責在提醒各位大院的各位委員就是說"},{"start":15237.707,"end":15259.407,"text":"從整個的違法性從核心區到緩衝區到永續利用區乃至於後面的有關違反行政調查到後面的這些規範行為它行為的惡性其實是不同的那必須是前重後輕不要調到最後我很擔心的是後重前輕就是說我到海邊去放一個復育設施比如說我看到這邊的海星很少"},{"start":15259.667,"end":15268.871,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":15294.763,"end":15302.97,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":15320.003,"end":15321.503,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":15348.719,"end":15359.483,"text":"來,大家的意見呢?要3000嗎?3000到10000?那就3000到10000嘛。好,那第25條我們就修正通過了。好,謝謝。好,那現在我們進行26條。來,請翻開374頁。"},{"start":15380.567,"end":15395.17,"text":"人擬具楊瓊瓔等26人擬具楊瓊瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26人擬具楊瓔瓔等26"},{"start":15408.733,"end":15413.577,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〉"},{"start":15436.918,"end":15437.859,"text":"來我們第五章張銘請翻開383頁"},{"start":15453.647,"end":15463.931,"text":"主席沒意見啦。好,那我意見我們就照行政院的提案張明通過。好,現在我們處理27條,他要發牌385頁。來修正動議有習新穎委員,還有我們羅廷偉委員。"},{"start":15477.014,"end":15501.364,"text":"那楊瓊瓔委員不在我們就不處理了。好。好。那我們樓庭委。好。來歡迎。謝謝。我想行政院版的第27條主動提出這個公民的訴訟條款是非常進步的一個做法。應該給予肯定但建議將發動的主體的一個受害人民與公益團體改為人民與公益團體更為完備。"},{"start":15504.439,"end":15522.855,"text":"時務中經驗在行政法院的程序中經常有針對訴訟當事人事格的一個相關證認,所以想要證明人民是否有所受害,需耗司法資源。我想這個部分應該改成人民,而不是受害人。好,謝謝。再來我們請我們習先生委員。"},{"start":15525.218,"end":15544.154,"text":"謝謝主席本席的修正動議非常簡單就是因為我們第27條是公民訴訟之立法所以我們應該有協助人民提起訴訟並且明確化其主張內容的機制所以在27條第一項有提到"},{"start":15545.816,"end":15567.567,"text":"這個受害人民或是剛剛庭委說的人民或公益團體他得序名疏於執行之具體內容以書面告知主管機關所以本席修正動議希望說書面告知的格式能夠由中央主管機關來匯商有關機關公告之我想這應該很OK吧很簡單以上謝謝"},{"start":15574.076,"end":15602.156,"text":"好謝謝我們審議委員那請我們主管單位回覆好不好各位委員報告就是說如果要擴大到所有的人民都來提公民訴訟的話我們是會比較認為說大概公民訴訟是在政府待遇行使職權的時候產生兩個影響一個影響是影響公共利益"},{"start":15602.856,"end":15604.478,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":15621.378,"end":15625.259,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":15650.691,"end":15654.152,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠"},{"start":15672.401,"end":15675.184,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":15684.946,"end":15709.044,"text":"他已經被姦殺死亡了但他必須要佐證他被搶了多少錢這沒有意義啊所以今天我們為什麼一直在強調說人民就可以提出訴訟而不是我還要告訴他說我受害了多少我又還要再佐證我受害了多少那我萬一真正受害的人不敢站出來講我們這些人願意提出來幫他講的時候我們沒有受害抱歉你沒資格"},{"start":15709.764,"end":15723.781,"text":"啊我要再去組一個團體我要再去告訴每個團體你要來幫我們講這件事情我覺得人民都應該有訴訟的權利只要他違法了好請我們主管單位我們主委回答齁"},{"start":15724.916,"end":15751.136,"text":"這個基本上是說他們認為政府機關待於行使職權違反他的行政責任行政義務的時候提起的公民訴訟所以主體會設計成受害人民因為主管你不做有人民受害了所以這受害的人要來提這個訴訟但是我們沒辦法保證每個都像主委這麼優秀嘛一定都會捍衛這權益嘛好不好但是我就說不管任何人執政"},{"start":15752.057,"end":15772.945,"text":"都應該要有人民可以有這個機會最後自救。我們是不是請謝副再來幫我們說明一下好不好。我們也有公民訴訟體系是全民都可以提啦我知道。欸對不起我聽不到您的聲音不好意思。"},{"start":15777.728,"end":15801.778,"text":"最主要是送援的問題,那我們是不是請主席?主席可以請司法院表示一下嗎?主席!主席!王美惠主席,他要解釋一下啦!好,那拜託到前面來解釋一下好不好"},{"start":15812.016,"end":15822.428,"text":"主席、各位委員、代表司法院發言關於剛剛委員提到說就是人民是否加注是否從受害人民改成人民這部分"},{"start":15823.035,"end":15850.964,"text":"那其實目前的這個立法例上來看很多法都有公民訴訟相關規定然後大部分的法例都是規定受害人民然後像是水污防治法72條土污准治法54條海污法66條毒性關注化學物質防治法肺腥法空污法都是規定受害人民就是有把受害人民做一個匡列然後在公益團體的部分再把它放寬那以上給委員參考"},{"start":15856.096,"end":15861.785,"text":"委員我這邊還需要補充嗎?"},{"start":15861.785,"end":15861.986,"text":"不用了,謝謝。"},{"start":15868.249,"end":15893.681,"text":"那我簡單補充一點就好了就是其實這個其實是一個standing的規定就是說什麼人可以提及訴訟其實很大一部分是在防止訟言過於腐爛的狀況如果是所有的人民的話代表所有的任何一個人他可能是個訴訟狂或怎麼樣他有可能我現在舉我現在舉不要說是舉哪一例是十五上場發生案例他可能一天就提一兩百件提到法院去是嘿來"},{"start":15897.197,"end":15897.557,"text":"議員主席。議員主席。"},{"start":15913.168,"end":15918.572,"text":"徐徐宇,你的有加進去了吧?那我們羅廷偉勒?羅廷偉OK吧?好,不堅持了。"},{"start":15932.373,"end":15941.398,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"},{"start":15955.945,"end":15979.59,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議第11屆第2會期內政委員會議第3會期內政委員會議第4會期內政委員會議第5會期內政委員會議第6會期內政委員會議第7會期內政委員會議第8會期內政委員會議第9會期內政委員會議第10會期內政委員會議第11會期內政委員會議第11會期內政委員會議第12會期內政委員會議第12會期內政委員會議第13會期內政委員會議第13會期內政委員會議第14會期內政委員會議第14會期內政委員會議第15會期內政委員會議第16會期內政委員會議第16會期內政委員會議第17會"},{"start":15987.873,"end":15991.296,"text":"議員主席。議員主席。"},{"start":16006.756,"end":16010.037,"text":"這個部分是財政秩序的問題,那相關部門嗎?財政部嗎?"},{"start":16035.794,"end":16051.241,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。主席總書的代表稍微說明一下法反它是屬於公權力的行使它其實是具有公共性那原則上它是應該要納入國庫去統收統資那再加上說我們這個法反它是行為法"},{"start":16051.661,"end":16052.041,"text":"包括楊瓊瓔委員"},{"start":16080.72,"end":16103.418,"text":"羅美玲委員莊瑞雄委員民眾黨賴瑞榮委員吳祁銘委員大家都是希望能夠放入到海洋發展基金管理運用啦所以我覺得這個基本上是不是可以再溝通一下那不氛覽率大家都覺得餒那四位來回應一下跟各位委員報告齁"},{"start":16105.139,"end":16122.385,"text":"現在如果我們依法要設基金都還必須主總同意行政院通過所以我們依法海洋基本法雖然有這個基金但是事實上沒有被成立"},{"start":16123.425,"end":16145.354,"text":"那包括說我們的海烏基金我們現在都還在努力之中為什麼呢因為會被認為說你沒有穩定裁員啊你為什麼要去成立所以這個東西就是給你穩定裁員目前沒有這個基金成立還沒有還沒有成立那可以配套嗎你現在先列為國庫後面有基金就要"},{"start":16146.513,"end":16157.836,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員王美惠等17二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":16175.204,"end":16181.032,"text":"一年只有幾十萬,那更不可能會被同意。應該是不會過。"},{"start":16190.919,"end":16219.699,"text":"好,那我們羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員主委的回應報告主席我會接受嗎?報告主席因為我們的立基點還是回到海洋基本法第三條中央政府的設立海洋發展基金辦理海洋發展及支援永續的相關事項這個是海洋基本法裡面就明文規定的那你沒有辦法設立基金但是法律就規定你一定要設立基金啊那你要去想辦法"},{"start":16220.259,"end":16223.06,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":16248.11,"end":16258.321,"text":"在這一條法上現在沒有基金所以可能沒辦法但是想要請問主委你的態度對這個基金我們有沒有準備要成立"},{"start":16259.861,"end":16286.726,"text":"我們優先還是先把海巫基金成立起來那海發基金的部分我們必須要有足夠的財源那如果這個財閥是禁海巫基金的話我想還是不會過就是主總還是會說因為財源不足不會讓我們過這樣子好謝謝李博弈委員好我們羅廷偉好關主委我這個版本是你的版本"},{"start":16288.43,"end":16307.056,"text":"我的版本包括3030都在裏面這個我瞭解但是進到行政期間以後我瞭解沒有錯謝謝委員但是跟委員報告齁當我當我的海巫基金在申請的時候當我的海巫基金在申請的時候的波折告訴我說執行"},{"start":16310.738,"end":16313.5,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17"},{"start":16331.916,"end":16347.708,"text":"協商啦。這是小事情啦,我們再協商啦。好的。好,那我們這就保留好不好。來現在進行第28條。大家翻開399頁。大家有沒有意見?"},{"start":16358.737,"end":16360.318,"text":"二、繼續審查委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":16377.148,"end":16394.493,"text":"好,二十九條我們協議政委員有修正動議就是有關本法的施行細則希望還是由中央主管機關會同有關機關及原住民機關定制好,來請我們諸位回物"},{"start":16396.004,"end":16415.898,"text":"一般事情細則是主管機關擬定但是因為我們今天在審議的過程當中連續就是遇到會商會同的問題的時候我們都保留所以可能就必須一併保留保留嗎?對好那29條我們就保留好那現在進行我們30條大概翻開409頁"},{"start":16432.364,"end":16432.945,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":16444.827,"end":16449.711,"text":"主席,我有意見,但是你念了,我要說現在我的意見,我認為可以討論到這裡,讓認真的人休息一下,跟你們的單位要關緊,如果有問題,"},{"start":16460.121,"end":16464.246,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員王美惠等16人擬具"},{"start":16481.687,"end":16499.234,"text":"那我們現在先讀保留條文好不好先讀剛剛的委員決議的保留條文第四條、第六條、第七條、第八條、第九條、第十二條、第十三條、第十四條、第十九條、第20條、第21條、第22條、第23條、委員提案、委員楊瓊瓔等、委員羅廷偉等"},{"start":16507.837,"end":16532.527,"text":"第34條、委員羅美玲等委員莊瑞雄等提案第29條、台灣民眾黨團提案第35條及委員賴瑞榮等提案第28條、委員吳清明等提案第29條保留。行政院提案第29條保留。審理完畢。好。好,來來,主委。要補充嗎?沒有吧?好。"},{"start":16533.476,"end":16546.093,"text":"那我們保留條文以附帶結議請我們海委會跟委員保持溝通寧記大家的公事修正具體的條文那令定期"},{"start":16548.456,"end":16550.037,"text":"立法院第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":16569.414,"end":16573.019,"text":"拜託我們海委會跟我們各位委員有保留條文的話大家趕快去溝通好不好"},{"start":16584.181,"end":16594.951,"text":"那我們今天的會議就到此結束,現在散會好不好?好,謝謝!大家辛苦了!大家辛苦了!昨天大家都很辛苦!謝謝!好,謝謝!辛苦了!"},{"start":16611.905,"end":16615.748,"text":"三、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"},{"start":16634.141,"end":16636.383,"text":"等16人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案。"}]}},{"id":"15898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15898","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc5da7963983a35b0d6c89f6306fc014403be8d109af184be4f6e2dec8e1b7e2715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T08:35:08+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-09T12:28:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13972,"委員發言時間":"08:35:08 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171.492,"text":"第三、為了符合大法庭裁定的指示,我們應該要先通知當事人包含的移送機關,請他們表示意見。"},{"start":2185.62,"end":2198.312,"text":"最後呢更應該要審視該等契約如果中止之後是否會影響到有關於弱勢義務人我們是否有替代方式比方說用分期繳納或者請他提供其他的擔保等等方式"},{"start":2201.364,"end":2219.876,"text":"當然,如果該等執行命令因為移送機關認為金額不必那麼大有撤回的時候,我們會立刻跟保險公司這邊說是否暫緩為之等等。為了了解該等保險契約它的性質如何,本人也特別在今年4月24號特別去拜訪的保險局司局長"},{"start":2220.396,"end":2223.398,"text":"從111年12月9日大法庭裁定做成之後到今年4月30日行政執行署總共執行了4254萬件"},{"start":2247.557,"end":2249.018,"text":"謝謝黃處長接下來有請金融監督管理委員會市局長"},{"start":2285.534,"end":2295.361,"text":"主席還有各位委員先進大家好今天陳貴委員會邀請向各位委員就強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解進行"},{"start":2298.451,"end":2302.975,"text":"最高法院108年民事大法庭裁定主文執行法院與必要時得合法執行命令終止"},{"start":2321.785,"end":2337.598,"text":"債務人為藥保人之人受保險契約命第三人保險公司償付結約金肯認債權人得申請就債務人為藥保人之人受保險契約強制執行為裁定理由第5點亦載明"},{"start":2339.74,"end":2342.341,"text":"實務執行面所面臨的問題主要有幾點第一個部分是大量的執行"},{"start":2361.24,"end":2375.4,"text":"案件湧入,造成一些作業面的衝擊。民事大法庭裁定後,債權人就債務人的授權契約向法院申請強制執行或移送行政執行,執行案件數量驟增。"},{"start":2378.744,"end":2397.507,"text":"那這個部分也造成受險公會還有受險公司相應來自執行機關請求要協助查詢以及執行之案件量激增那受險公司接到這個債權人與債務人不斷進見、推薦還有抱怨跟申訴"},{"start":2398.608,"end":2416.031,"text":"那另外就是債務人保險契約的解約金如果金額過低遭強制執行後雖可少量填補債權但保險契約遭解約後保險權益即屬喪失那這個部分嚴重影響後續被保險人的生活保障"},{"start":2416.271,"end":2416.291,"text":"〔記者註冊〕"},{"start":2439.444,"end":2439.844,"text":"本會在相應的作為裡面"},{"start":2469.179,"end":2498.279,"text":"而第一個部分我們有這個責成受選公司就這個保護就被強制執行對著流生活所必須的這個相關救濟規定我們責成受選公司應主動關懷保護那同時呢也要協助這個保護來向法院提出申請或聲明意義來維護相關的權益那第二個部分是避免這個"},{"start":2499.399,"end":2499.939,"text":"第三個部分呢"},{"start":2527.863,"end":2555.184,"text":"我們大概目前將協助這個研議訂定這個執行機關研議訂定保險契約強制執行的參考原則那同時來簡化相關的作業流程來簡化這個執行機關以及受選工會以及我們的受選公司的相關的作業面所以這個執行原則我們目前正在研擬當中那這裡包括這個執行原則之外還有一個選總的歸類參考表"},{"start":2557.731,"end":2557.831,"text":"以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":2588.561,"end":2592.269,"text":"好謝謝市局長接下來請財政部宋署長報告"},{"start":2598.775,"end":2617.974,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家好。金益誠貴委員會邀請就《強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解》進行專題報告。那有關最高法院民事大法庭108年度的裁定,剛才相關機關都有做了一些相關的解釋。"},{"start":2618.775,"end":2645.19,"text":"那以下我就就我們本部各地區國會局以欠稅人為要保人的人壽保險契約作為強制執行標的的做法簡要說明如下進行指教那為了落實上開就108年大法庭的裁定有關執行人壽保險契約應符立符合比例原則的意旨行政執行官在執行欠稅人的人壽保險解約金的時候如果他徵詢我們移送機關的意見"},{"start":2646.271,"end":2676.271,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2676.951,"end":2691.976,"text":"根據我們各地區國會局的統計從111年12月9日大法庭裁定到113年4月底大概一年五個月的期間辦理強制執行欠稅人為要保人的人壽保險契約的案件"},{"start":2693.196,"end":2715.614,"text":"一共有509件執行徵期的稅款合計新台幣是2.54億元那最後簡單跟大家做個報告就是為了確保欠稅的徵期我們本部將會持續督導所謂各地區域辦理各項稅捐保全措施發掘納稅人他可供執行的財產而且是積極配合行政機構辦理後續強制執行作業"},{"start":2718.516,"end":2733.497,"text":"如果到最後還是有執行人壽保險解約金的需要,我們也會提醒各地居國局一定要符合比例原則的審慎為之,來兼顧國家的租稅債權跟相關關係人權益。以上說明,敬請各位委員會議指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2735.589,"end":2761.229,"text":"好 謝謝我們宋署長那麼機關報告已經進行完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止花園登記如有臨時提案並請於10點半前提出1例於11點進行處理好請登記第一位的省委員發會諮詢"},{"start":2780.384,"end":2784.731,"text":"主席我們先請司法院秘書長好請吳秘書長委員好"},{"start":2791.981,"end":2809.811,"text":"秘書長,我們根據行政院所通過的有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例草案還有洗錢防治法、科技偵查法、通訊保障監察法等等幾項"},{"start":2815.394,"end":2834.547,"text":"這個我們行政院他把他整個作為一個打砸專法那這個部分現在他這個行政院他已經他我個人還沒有看到法條內容但是我在新聞上面看到這個這個他的整個打砸專法的方向這部分請問司法院這邊了解嗎"},{"start":2835.956,"end":2836.576,"text":"主席黃市長"},{"start":2865.209,"end":2887.736,"text":"委員好市長好這個你是不是大概我大概你對這個行政院所推出這個打詐專法的部分你個人了不了解抱歉因為我是行政執行署這個是屬於那個我們檢察司的好那這個那還那這個那你請回來你不了解"},{"start":2889.153,"end":2915.09,"text":"這個這個秘書長這個部分你個人對於對於這個這個目前行政院所推出的打砸專法的內容你現在你個人有沒有掌握?都有掌握因為我們刑事廳都都隨時都要回報每一次參加會議齁這個都要都要有有這個這個這個推出來我個人是非常肯定行政院這樣子他把這個大概是把這幾年來這個這個"},{"start":2917.171,"end":2938.831,"text":"我們這些所謂民眾對詐騙集團以及從我們從這個包括刑事案件包括這個法務部包括這個各金融單位大家在這個這幾年裡面在打詐的過程中所碰到的大概幾個法律上面的問題我們一一要把它解決當然這個修法的結果他能不能解決這個還是一個問題但是"},{"start":2941.633,"end":2968.321,"text":"是不是這裡面有關幾個尤其是例如說像這個這個大型網路平台啦齁那像我們我知道這次好像增列了這個巨額詐欺罪齁那我個人但是我個人因為還沒有看到法條所以我不太清楚這巨額詐欺罪是指一次犯罪行為還是還是這個這個這個以這個這個行為人為單位他所累計的的詐騙金額呢這部分"},{"start":2969.662,"end":2973.787,"text":"據我們了解那個行政院今天早上應該會開院會來處理打詐三法的原意"},{"start":2985.481,"end":3009.178,"text":"那其實會通過的草案內容可能目前為止可能還不是那麼確定但是根據我們之前開會的所得其實就這個詐欺一千萬元以上可能列為這個巨額的詐欺巨額詐欺罪會成為這個三年以上十年以下的重罪的案件對那是這個所謂巨額詐欺罪他是指一次一次"},{"start":3010.509,"end":3031.776,"text":"犯罪行為一千萬以上還是累計應該是才累計不過這個還是要看他草案的內容所以最後去當然最後還沒確定但等監議院會但是你所看到提到院會的草案內容裡面是累計的還是不過這個是跟贅述有關係就是說如果他詐欺的過程中他持續性的詐欺這個金額當然是累計"},{"start":3033.834,"end":3052.297,"text":"好這個部分齁這個部分我們等這個最後我們看到這個條文齁可能有很多部分以他最後版本為準對當然是以最後版本為準齁那但是有關於這個大型網路平台要求在台灣要指定代理人像TikTok這些大型網路平台因為我們現在目前整個"},{"start":3053.098,"end":3078.327,"text":"查緝詐欺犯罪最大碰到最大困難就在這網路平台的部分這部分我們目前我看到的辦法是要求這些大型網路平台在台灣必須要指定法律代理人那這個另外有關於巨額詐欺加重罪有關於這個三犯不得假釋或者是這個窩裡反條款這些部分我們都希望說到時候我們看到"},{"start":3079.407,"end":3107.928,"text":"確定了法案之後這部分可能再跟這個相關的執行單位我們再來討論好不好兩位請回好那接下來接下來我是先請這個這個阿等一下這個這個秘書長你還是還是稍微留步齁有關於我們這個今天的主題啦齁我們這個民事民事大法庭裁定了齁裁定有關於這個授權保單可作為執行標的的部分齁"},{"start":3109.032,"end":3109.172,"text":"這部分這個"},{"start":3112.901,"end":3137.822,"text":"究竟這個人壽保險他有沒有這個一身專屬性是不是屬於一身專屬性的權利在法律上面當然還有一些爭議但是我們既然我們大法庭這民事大法庭做了統一的見解但這個統一見解做下去之後為什麼今天會召開這樣的會剛才各個單位的報告也都聽到了也都聽到就是他事實上剛才我看到我們司法院自己的報告也提到我們這個北檢跟市檢"},{"start":3139.96,"end":3153.579,"text":"的這個不堪負荷,負荷非常沉重,就因為通過這個見解,所以事實上不只是我們這個法院案件增加的負荷而已,事實上四大增加,民眾的抱怨也增加,很多"},{"start":3154.954,"end":3170.231,"text":"民眾的抱怨再來保險公司跟保險公會的負擔也增加因為你們這過程你們要查詢你們要查詢這個保單所以保險公會跟保險公司他的負擔也增加再來我們民意代表接受的陳情也增加量真的增加很大所以這個"},{"start":3174.894,"end":3198.554,"text":"這個我們還是事實上需要解決啦我剛剛有看到你們的這個報告裡面有關這個這一年來這個民事大法庭做出這個統一的見解之後這一年來所增加的幅度將近到三成耶三成是相當可怕的數字啊那這個後續的狀況齁這個有很多部分可能"},{"start":3201.155,"end":3201.755,"text":"司法局長"},{"start":3223.154,"end":3249.687,"text":"市長好久不見歡迎你今天到司法法制委員會來了我剛看到你們的報告你們提到就今天的這個主題你們提到說儘管會有四大因應作為那我這個我剛所講的狀況包括我們司法院秘書長說它是重災區法院的案件增加量是重災區事實上保險公司跟保險公會我想這個"},{"start":3251.368,"end":3266.601,"text":"局長應該非常清楚他們負擔增加的狀況是驚人所以我們還是要看金管會的因應作為金管會的因應作為在報告裡面提到四大因應作為第一個是說要求保險業主動關懷保險契約遭強制執行戶"},{"start":3271.13,"end":3295.556,"text":"這部分其實他就是增加保險業的業者的增加他的這個負擔嘛是第二個要求受險公司提供覆約延續條款這部分我看你們已經做了啦你們在這個去年的12月你們已經發了一個人身保險商品審查應注意事項已經讓他這個包括他有沒有"},{"start":3300.154,"end":3323.33,"text":"有沒有這個復約可不可謂解約有沒有復解約金你們把它區分開來做的但是這是針對未來的新的新的人壽保險契約過去的舊的我們還是一樣在這你們還是一樣在這個目前這個亂象這個負擔之中嗎就你沒有回溯嗎對不對報告委員因為護約是一年"},{"start":3324.491,"end":3325.932,"text":"但是你們再來你們提到說你們要執行這個機關簡化"},{"start":3351.181,"end":3352.962,"text":"我們已經在擬這個條文了就是已經滿久了捏"},{"start":3379.495,"end":3405.93,"text":"因為這件事情應該是上個月我們的那個有沒有修法有沒有包括這個受益人介入的制度有因為我們有一個委員研究計畫所以我們會把受益人大概修法兩個重點第一個就是就是明定這個保障型的契約不能不予強制執行這是第一個重點第二個就是受益人的介入制度這個部分要納入了要引入對不對對對這個"},{"start":3409.389,"end":3425.046,"text":"這個齁我是是要了解你們因為這個東西還牽涉到齁事實上現在我們我們知道現在這樣亂象但是其實政府各單位其實也在運用這個方式在執在在在在進行強制執行我們今天國稅國稅國稅署在這裡"},{"start":3426.689,"end":3444.584,"text":"他們這個光去年去年透過這個這個人壽保單的強制執行去年就追回追回的這個這個這個款項都到兩億多的是不是對不對兩億多這就是就是這個所以你們這個未來如果如果修法啊不只這個中華電信"},{"start":3445.945,"end":3461.745,"text":"交通部所屬的中華電信、台電這些他們過去欠的電費、電話費也都很多都是透過這個保單在強制執行、在收回的所以這個修法的部分我希望說我們這個金管會這邊能夠加速進行好不好"},{"start":3462.225,"end":3480.06,"text":"是。我們會盡快來處理。那你們預計什麼時候?因為這已經講滿久了。我們近期會召開公聽會。這大概應該是...現在是五月嘛。我們大概五月底之前會先召開過第一次的那個跟業者還有我們會邀執行機關一起來。"},{"start":3481.061,"end":3482.642,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員接下來有請沈委員峻宇質詢"},{"start":3523.971,"end":3547.845,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們先請吳秘書長請吳秘書長好秘書長早委員好在司法院我們解凍的這個報告當中我們有提及到國民法官制度那對於現行絕對評議的這個秘密原則進行檢討是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神"},{"start":3550.467,"end":3575.576,"text":"那依國民法官法第85條第二項的規定案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人得於裁判確定後申請閱覽評議意見但不得抄錄、攝影或影印而在這個上會期我們審議決議寫道實務上因為這個評議意見只有摘入摘要和結論所以沒有辦法得知結論的這個脈絡"},{"start":3577.877,"end":3598.636,"text":"若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決,恐會有失國人對司法院的信任。我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度從過去所做的一般民眾"},{"start":3599.907,"end":3625.218,"text":"對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮、人身安全和各自保護有其優先性那從調查結果也能夠看到不論是否有實際的參與國民法官經驗都對於隱私和安全有相當的重視另外從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查"},{"start":3626.657,"end":3652.496,"text":"這個結果報告當中我們可以看到在影響參與審判意願的因素當中人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅但是在這個實際的參與審判之後這項疑慮占比降低了許多那我想請教祕書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告那頻密的緩和是否可能多大的這個程度影響到民眾參審的這個意願"},{"start":3655.902,"end":3666.337,"text":"因為在這個裁判齁在一般的這個裁判或案件審理那麼平易的"},{"start":3667.722,"end":3667.882,"text":"國民法官案件"},{"start":3687.042,"end":3687.222,"text":"當然因為要"},{"start":3708.047,"end":3731.265,"text":"要保障我們國民法官的這個自由這個表述人身安全也是要促進我們民眾參審的一個重要價值但是也不能犧牲掉我們當事人的這個權益應該讓當事人能夠探知平易的這個期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的這個判決結果"},{"start":3733.424,"end":3756.581,"text":"那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個"},{"start":3759.183,"end":3773.497,"text":"秘書長對於司法院目前我們還是暫時不打算做出相關的這個調整以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民法官和當事人的權益嗎那接下來我們評估的修正方向是要"},{"start":3774.434,"end":3794.841,"text":"看我們這個之前的這個電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果才能夠再做重新的調整嗎?因為因為這個新進度的推行那尤其涉及到這種相對性的這個關係人那麼相對性的一個權利所以這一部分在"},{"start":3796.101,"end":3807.013,"text":"在司法院是很審慎的來會評估然後是隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題這個還是要很謹慎還是要很謹慎因為這個是相對性的有相對性的權利要保護"},{"start":3814.028,"end":3828.219,"text":"所以就是還要在...這個要很審慎啦,其實這方面要很審慎。好,那接下來我想請教秘書長,我們這個有關國民法官的制度,我們在減變資源不對等的這個問題,"},{"start":3829.48,"end":3849.534,"text":"我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮那因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪通常會有這個頂尖的這個檢察官來辦理但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下可能就會有資源和實力上的一個落差"},{"start":3850.054,"end":3868.308,"text":"那一樣從國民法官這個問卷調查結果報告的內容我們可以看到參與審判的這個國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予簡便雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多但我們還是看得出來對於檢察官的這個整體評價是高於"},{"start":3871.01,"end":3886.66,"text":"的這個部分這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況那我們許中立院長也曾經表示過了我們司法院作為國民法官制度的一個推動機關所需要這個"},{"start":3888.308,"end":3898.894,"text":"因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的這個市場機制來解決那我還是請教秘書長就是目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題"},{"start":3900.677,"end":3924.157,"text":"因為這個這些都要從人性面考量所以在這個法服歷史那一部分我們會盡量來提高他酬金的天花板那在這個在法院部分也有約聘辯護人這方面的一個招聘就盡量要讓這個辯護人方面的這個"},{"start":3925.198,"end":3928.803,"text":"從我們這個書面報告看起來我們還是大多朝向就是像剛剛秘書長陳如寧所說的提高我們律師的薪酬那也能夠提高辯護的量能"},{"start":3946.443,"end":3963.596,"text":"我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的一個方向那我還是請教秘書長是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓減變雙方的資源更加平衡這一部分我們書信廳這一方面我們其實都有相當的一個對策"},{"start":3969.565,"end":3993,"text":"委員好謝謝委員垂詢這個問題有關法服這個國法案件酬金的部分在今年因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們來擬據草案之後來送我們司法院核定之後再施行那目前的進度是這樣先跟委員報告就是有關這個國法案件的酬金有關基數的部分我們已經調高成一個基數為2000元那另外有關這個"},{"start":3998.803,"end":3998.823,"text":"復甦辯護律師"},{"start":4013.695,"end":4039.838,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4039.898,"end":4058.029,"text":"那也順便提高這個國法案件辯護的質與量以上報告謝謝是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告是好那另外我想請教我們秘書長就是除了我們促進民眾對國民法官的這個參與之外我們也期待辯護人能夠這個持續的參審"},{"start":4060.936,"end":4076.609,"text":"那司法院有沒有調查過曾經這個參加過參審的這個國民法官案件的辯護人他在參與的意願為何那或是他不想去參與的原因是什麼那這一部分聽裡面"},{"start":4079.918,"end":4103.967,"text":"報告委員這部分我們都有進行相關的這個問卷調查那這部分可能要再看詳細的資料其實對於辯護人那沒關係那還是會後再給我一份這個書面報告簡單的書面報告那因為我們國民法官這一年多來有越來越多的案例可以做這個整體的檢討目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告"},{"start":4105.987,"end":4118.616,"text":"可以說做得相當的完整也非常的精美那還有很多項目可以參考和討論我也希望說我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日的出爐也能夠繼續來精進推動"},{"start":4121.698,"end":4122.318,"text":"謝謝秘書長、謝謝委員那接下來請謝委員容屆質詢"},{"start":4158.789,"end":4162.752,"text":"主席我請秘書長﹖有請吳秘書長﹖執行署﹖方署長﹖委員金管委﹖來請趙培勳議事局長我先來問執行署﹖書長﹖你沒有去發過你們的特集的詢問書嗎?"},{"start":4180.461,"end":4186.764,"text":"今天這個問題都是你們土井土到有夠煞的,你們比那個歐洲的土井更煩,真的啊"},{"start":4209.844,"end":4210.605,"text":"我先瞭解一下"},{"start":4240.454,"end":4241.475,"text":"有的發官還替董事長說"},{"start":4268.373,"end":4274.655,"text":"啊你們不符合比例原則啦齁啊這樣就要關稅,這樣關稅會怎樣啊這我都親身經歷的啦不是這樣啦,這問題齁你們這執行署,執行署齁在討錢很難的啦我們在縫合到這個齁去有時候要參與一般地方的議員去,他沒什麼要參與的"},{"start":4296.547,"end":4301.011,"text":"我現在來立法院報到可能來講比較稠稠的給我說的樣子啊不然剛剛地方的議員剛才你要去跟他說婚期啦這樣比較會對你比較客氣淡薄啊比如說幾年剛剛這個立法院這樣宣佈下來啦,幾年到今年,到今天了啦"},{"start":4320.96,"end":4350.04,"text":"只要這樣保險大處理還不就百高千斤是不是啊?有這個數字啊但我經常說你們要給董事林欸你們這時候都沒叫董事林來欸齁啊你如果給鄉方面的董事林都來陳述意見就對了啦我問你會驚慌的結局嗎?這個所以業務很多啦陳述就是包括書狀百高千斤啊不然你們法官會想不開啊"},{"start":4352.009,"end":4358.913,"text":"我個人是覺得今年7月以前就對了,這是7月高,這是新的啦,9月保單還是一樣啦,這個問題又繼續發生喔,不是的都沒有而已。所以金管會對這條齁,要拜託一下,我個人的感覺齁,這如果不趕緊解決啦,"},{"start":4380.646,"end":4408.277,"text":"您發官、司法院及法務部不管時就要上來立法院要對家人員的編制感謝,秘書長因為這個現在就重災期啊就需要這麼多人力啊沒有啦,所以我們要當兵相嘛不是只討人家嘛,不是只討金管會嘛,不是只討保險局嘛所以政府是一體的啦,政府應該一體來面對這樣一個問題啊你對特勤的這裡,他們不要那麼煩躁,沒有這樣的事情啦"},{"start":4411.371,"end":4424.963,"text":"主席,我告訴你,你應該去聽聽看,你都不要怕車子,人家在問的時候,你總要點點去,把他下車來聽,你就知道說你那裡執行官多實,你不知道啊"},{"start":4431.343,"end":4446.536,"text":"委員應該是不會啦,我剛剛問的那些執行官齁,這樣都是為人民服務齁,我覺得應該態度不會這樣啦。民代車友,爺爺能講,齁齁,夠厲害。你這樣再說不會,我再跟你說,我背董事,你去咕嚕咗你聽到沒有?是,是,委員我會去了解,齁。這製作,不會去製作這麼久,你們總要討錢也不對啦。什麼私人骨頭空喔,你們就有空去把它黏出來啦。"},{"start":4460.496,"end":4471.424,"text":"我跟董事長拿一支肥肝去說,他說這個古早,這個我阿公留下來,這個穿掉了,這個假日沒用,這個給你們靠這樣有沒有你暗罵會對不對,一聲就把他打穿你就看得到,他會比較要放肚就對了,沒有的都沒有的今天法務部及金管會都有來,我跟你說一件很嚴重的事情譬如說這個看你比較無關的你敢知道現在最近"},{"start":4490.967,"end":4496.652,"text":"委員這個部分應該是類似融資公司在處理的,是。我還要講這4萬5要行7萬3千4百4十,這樣沒打緊,這是機車喔。"},{"start":4520.598,"end":4536.662,"text":"開車,很多年輕人跟老闆老婦說他要買車,我們同事也要買車,我們朋友也要買車,同事之間就對了,同事之間就是大家都開車,他就要買車,四大人一定說啊,看什麼啦,我只要給這四大人拜託去處理這幾項就對了,有夠多啦,看什麼,再來,造成現在為什麼李修車會那麼認罪?"},{"start":4549.022,"end":4557.106,"text":"李秀蕭我告訴你這台車2百萬啦齁7個行情天書拿去看2百萬他會賺不到302萬你覺得嗎?年輕人現在在急著要用錢啊打到六倍啊現在來去302萬你不用投機款農莊貸款喔這樣就中4萬啦這沒什麼只有302萬"},{"start":4577.659,"end":4587.984,"text":"人家說幫我好來好不過後台啦 來開始 帳管費啦 手續費啦 開辦費啦 加加一更兩三萬 加到這 加到後分團組36集 團組36集啦 理事代代三檔要結納差不多50%啦 三檔要結納50%啦"},{"start":4606.918,"end":4613.704,"text":"這30萬要繳45萬啦!每款寫的35萬,啊怎麼年輕人,你幫我報,我幫你報,我們就都可以買車啊!啊這搞不好就後面,特勤還是對歐德去啦!特效公司啦!啊這搞你現在都沒辦法啦!這把你歡迎過來變成這樣?"},{"start":4633.001,"end":4654.294,"text":"報告委員 融資公司的部分我們的銀行局其實也有找幾大融資公司在溝通啦希望他們也能夠定制立規範所以您是知道問題的問題就對了啦確定有這個問題是還是要我們把案例稍稍給你們看有啦 我們大概銀行局那邊應該都有掌握到一些沒有啦 放給這些年輕人過啦 不會這樣啦"},{"start":4656.435,"end":4670.223,"text":"他們現在很厲害,他們現在把所有賣出去的車,車牌都放在PDA裡面,電腦裡面喔,開喔,你只要2機沒力,3機沒力,路邊找到,通報所有的保養証喔,只要這台車來保養,要通報回去,他有重金耶,他就叫人來把車調到他,這樣後來就開始來對這件事了嘛,因為你錢沒力喔"},{"start":4679.144,"end":4684.99,"text":"阿你現在32萬的車對不對,你才半年後調回去阿,調回去他把你拍賣給你說什麼,這台車拍賣15萬,你給他看嘛,阿你32萬你要行他48萬欸,48萬加扣15萬。"},{"start":4699.978,"end":4715.89,"text":"你又欠他33萬我講你聽得懂嗎?他年輕就是這樣算的年輕就是這樣算的啊所以社會比較不亂啊這個年輕人又退散啊、走路啊啊要怎樣?四大人要出來處理啊四大人就對民意代表在這裏盯著啊整個規定就是這樣若沒有政策去面對啦齁所以為什麼一天王世堅會說這些人真的臨江生疆也不可創啊"},{"start":4730.769,"end":4746.373,"text":"這比放學後來更慘,放學後來就好不過後台了啦。所以,這我看你把這個公司齁,貸款的公司,租賃的這裡,包括民間做的這個,是不是一分數了給我們,好不好?"},{"start":4751.869,"end":4753.19,"text":"謝謝謝榮介、謝委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":4785.149,"end":4807.202,"text":"主席、在堂的委員先進、列席的政府監察官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請司法院吳秘書長、法務部黃署長以及金管會司局長還有財團法人金融消費評議中心羅主委兼總經理羅主委編導秘書長好、司委好"},{"start":4812.659,"end":4837.181,"text":"我想四位看起來都是慈眉善目那我很難得的我這裡一開始在簡報之前講兩個真實的案例給大家聽一下故且稱之為張先生跟李太太張先生年輕時做業務中年投資私利到了現在快退休的年紀了為債務所苦常常跑法院"},{"start":4838.444,"end":4867.179,"text":"那還好他年輕的時候兼差做過保險幫自己存了很多的保單但是大概是健康險、癌症險、受險那麼儲蓄型的當然就被強制執行解約他也就知道了但是他現在因為發現了早期的癌症他的保單開始對他產生效果結果呢保險公司理賠的金額強制執行都查扣了"},{"start":4867.915,"end":4895.98,"text":"但是他想說這個後續還有很多啊所以他保費呢還借錢繼續繳保費第二個李太太先生早年沒有照顧家庭都是他一個人操持帶小孩他真的節儉到幫孩子買一些保單但是呢先生因為外面欠債過世之後啊他也人家告訴他拋棄繼承但是後來才發現他不自情的情況下幫先生做連帶保證人"},{"start":4897.432,"end":4897.452,"text":"請看齁"},{"start":4910.799,"end":4934.865,"text":"因為今天啊,現在這樣場的一個質詢,我們立法院有直播,我的演說也直播。有兩個廣播電台的主持人,他們得到很多類似這個案例,在我開了記者委之後跟他們求助。我說你們來看看今天,我們在立法院相關機關、民意代表,怎麼樣幫這些數十萬個潛在的受害人解決。"},{"start":4935.865,"end":4949.548,"text":"我們講目前呢強制執行保單解約未符比例原則就是殺雞取卵是不是這樣子秘書長你殺了一隻雞他的保單的受益權那麼大只取到了一個解約金你認不認同這句話"},{"start":4951.934,"end":4978.282,"text":"殺資取暗嘛但是苦了誰?不是苦了藥保人、債務人啦苦了法院啦,是不是?21家保險公司,2家在士林分院19家在台北分院他們案件量現在已經有3萬多件,對不對?被查詢的保單還有23萬件,是不是這樣子?這23萬件被債權人去查詢的保單謝謝我們保險局,做得很好啊"},{"start":4979.142,"end":4987.048,"text":"人家可以查說到底我的債務人有多少保單那結果呢法院等於殺雞取卵殺雞也殺到手軟可是誰受益?施局長你覺得誰獲益?報告委員其實大家都是受害者其實債權人其實經過拍賣之後當你說受害他多少拿回一點"},{"start":5003.035,"end":5005.577,"text":"所以大法庭在2022年12月9號做成的這個裁定我們往下看"},{"start":5033.2,"end":5051.439,"text":"執行保單的剛剛講的案例他欠23萬每年被收20%的高利還債跟不上滾利還被扣保單再往下看強制執行我們看到了已經發出的有8100件合法扣押命令的已經執行的已經解約的8000多件再扣押的34000件申請查詢的23萬件往下看"},{"start":5054.673,"end":5078.431,"text":"李培中的保單也會被強制執行嗎?請問保險局剛剛說那個案例他的健康險、癌症險在李培給他了那為什麼這個保護還要繼續繳保費?因為醫療險、健康險的部分他是有延續性的是的,因為他早年買的保費比較低他持續繳這個保單那有沒有拿到幾戶?被扣了嘛,對不對?好,我們現在來,黃署長"},{"start":5079.485,"end":5105.334,"text":"我們繳納保險目的是為了醫療保險那在這種情況之下你認為以那個案例情況之下我們薪水啊我不會因為欠了錢我薪水被扣我就不去上班嘛我還是努力的工作可是因為什麼因為我工作賺了錢只有三分之一會抵債嘛 對不對那如果我早年買的保單現在通通拿去賠去付這個債務人那你說我這個保護這樣公不公平並不應該你覺得"},{"start":5107.349,"end":5116.796,"text":"我認為他真的蠻可憐的啦那有沒有辦法可不可以什麼救濟法院的部分我可能不方便來法院來黃部長你對法院怎麼幫他因為"},{"start":5122.322,"end":5141.727,"text":"發言當然還是要回復我們回到就是還是要盡量要符合比例原則啦是這些案件我們看到潛在的有23萬件法官個案裁量累都累死了我們看看齁如果撲問保單的解約金多款率強制執行如果債務人他欠款是20萬那或者說解約金額只有1萬塊"},{"start":5143.047,"end":5158.661,"text":"請問執行署這種保障型的保單解約金少而債務人因為此失去了健康保險有沒有符合比例原則?這就是我們目前開的幾次會我們都盡可能的針對這部分我們用行政指導的方式各分署對這部分會考量"},{"start":5159.381,"end":5187.274,"text":"所以你們要再進一步講參考美國各州限定執行的範圍根據強制執行法第122條為了保障民眾生活債務人依法領取之社會保險幾乎不得為強制執行有沒有可能秉照這個精神社會保險是維持生活所必須尊嚴的生活很多保障你的保單也是要做保障在損害的填補是不是可以請司法院會同保險局執行署以保單類型解約金為界將部分保單排除在執行範圍外請三位分別答呼保險局可以嗎"},{"start":5189.178,"end":5209.239,"text":"法務委員我們現在已經在做了那執行署呢我們只要保險法有規定我們就配合辦理好那秘書長那誰來主催你們再來主導所以今天誰來定今天這個專題報告非常有意義的透過這樣齁這個我們一定會傾聽是誰來定保險局定執行署定還是司法院來定"},{"start":5210.476,"end":5234.624,"text":"誰要來定?因為有關於保單的強制執行事實上法院的執行程序只是一個被動程序所以這個法如果要制定的話不是法執行的標準分類標準應該在保險法裡面明定到底能不能我們會修法我是問你哪個單位來定"},{"start":5238.168,"end":5264.574,"text":"司法院委員承諾,你們找這兩個單位把這個標準定出來。欸,你們在推來推去,你們今天如果不講錯,不讓你們下台。誰要負責?報告委員,保險法的部分我們是會來定。那參考原則的部分,我想我們會來找受險工會來擬出一個參考原則。執行作業要點,司法院國民組長,你們有沒有一個刑事案件的分類做執行作業要點?"},{"start":5268.805,"end":5278.013,"text":"我想政府是一體的啦這個我看我們相關機關大家一起來協調看怎麼處理啦這個一定要緊密的來協調啦緊密協調啦"},{"start":5280.888,"end":5307.772,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分是應該還是要讓執行機關有一個參考原則修法是保險局要處理目前還沒修法前的執行作業要點來我念一個案子給你聽我們先看一下這個格式沒有統一的格式跟流程公務往往就非常的耗時耗力要請臭險公司就個案一一的向法院確認扣押範圍這是累死大家所以我剛剛就說要你們來統一格式流程來降低執行法院的壓力有沒有"},{"start":5309.565,"end":5321.978,"text":"好,我會後再給你們,因為你們有訂了一個刑事案件的執行的一個作業要點,是司法院訂的,可不可以參照這個訂出一個保單的一個執行跟解約的分類要點。這個我想我們說好因為積極來協調啦,會積極來協調。"},{"start":5325.962,"end":5345.612,"text":"好 那請問那個保險局齁受限主約遭強制執行副約一併失效你們也報告了那你們要怎麼做法防止這個主約被強制執行後副約的健康衍醫療險都因而失效你們有一個延約的一個延續續約的一個條款副約延續條款副約延續條款那怎麼做現在保險公司怎麼做"},{"start":5346.272,"end":5366.504,"text":"保險公司現在會主動把它復業延續條款就加批上去了好,你們說有去關懷啦提供復業延續條款我要拜託保險局保險公司最怕什麼?你們普惠金融的一些評鑑納入你們普惠金融的檢查項目定期公告可以嗎?可以可以,好謝謝,下一頁"},{"start":5367.825,"end":5391.141,"text":"所以目前尋求的保單呢,強制的營養23萬件來,評議中心,來,主委兼總經理目前你們有沒有受到保護這樣的一個請求,說啊協助他們認為有救濟,有爭議,你們有沒有辦法協助他救濟有這樣的案件有這樣的案件對,但是按照金融消費者保護法規定的話這個不屬於這個金融消費爭議,所以呢是的,我知道不是屬於金融,但是一般來講他們只認得你們"},{"start":5392.813,"end":5392.953,"text":"主席"},{"start":5415.328,"end":5441.173,"text":"我們評議中心的工作本來就有在做教育訓練好 那我要請你幫忙很清楚的不管是透過電視台、廣播電台、網路告訴這個事情全台灣有23萬個潛在的受害者他們即將他們被債務權公司查詢了知道他們有保單要進行申請強制執行了你們趕快的去宣傳可以嗎我們盡量做不是盡量做請在一個月內提出你們要怎麼做的方法給我"},{"start":5442.32,"end":5461.395,"text":"所以我在這裡最後還因為時間的關係請司局長我這個四大要求第一個以保單的類型解約金為借將部分保單排除在執行範圍內甚至要執行的部分也設定禮賠金的扣押上限這個部分保險局執行署授權公會請司法院會同來做可以嗎都點頭啦我當作你們都答應了"},{"start":5465.573,"end":5473.214,"text":"第二、對於保單強制執行統一的格式流程,定定一個保單強制執行參考原則,一個月內提出書面報告,誰要提?"},{"start":5475.816,"end":5495.153,"text":"保單強制執行參考原則因為司法院會盡量來協調啦可是要有人提阿你們不能三個合上沒水喝阿誰要提我們會盡量來那就司法院吳秘書長你來提一個月內我們司法院會來處理啦因為我們既然是重災期嘛重災期我們當然好啦那個廳長我覺得這樣秘書長願意承擔我們報"},{"start":5498.175,"end":5517.291,"text":"我們要先把那個受險他的受險種類我了解我都了解司局長會幫你忙但是你最後誰要送來來司局長你一個月給司法院可以嗎一個月內先給司法院好司法院拿到一個月把書面報告提出來可以嗎"},{"start":5519.254,"end":5545.763,"text":"當然我們會積極配合,因為我們是重災之馬。那就是你們,如果保險局在一個月內沒有給你們整理這些保單、商品的類型,那就責任剩下他。給了你們之後一個月內把這順便報告提出來,可以嗎?我們一定會費整啦,一定會費整。一個月內喔?因為這個一定要趕快積極處理啊。保險局將保險公司照強制性的保護提供的覆約延續條款,請納入你們對保險公司普惠金融檢查項目定型公告,可以嗎?可以。好,再下一頁。"},{"start":5546.423,"end":5571.996,"text":"那金融消費平行中心為了針對金融消費的弱勢消費者透過電台、電視、網路加強宣導保單你們可不可以一個一個提出一個你們怎麼做的報告給我給我們本委員會就是做這種教育宣導我們提出報告但是就是說像這種電視電台或你們有沒有預算執行欸這個我們這個預算可能不是那麼多我會幫你們去爭取但是你們過去都只是被動的接受消費平益"},{"start":5572.556,"end":5584.879,"text":"我希望你們要主動的告訴消費者有哪些潛在的風險。可以嗎?好,可以齁。那最後呢保險局,請進入沿路介入全路保險法,一個人提出書面延期報告,可以嗎?好,謝謝。謝謝主席。好,謝謝鍾嘉賓委員。下一位,下一位就我了。鍾嘉賓,好久不見。"},{"start":5604.462,"end":5626.111,"text":"好,那請專委員,謝謝。謝謝主席。有請我們司法院秘書長。好,有請吳秘書長。還有我們民事廳長。有請廳長。保險局局長。好,那市局長。還有我們"},{"start":5635.389,"end":5663.515,"text":"財團法人金融消費平益中心我們的羅總經理好不好請羅總經理民主黨還有局長委員好民主黨我來延續剛中嘉賓委員的質詢再來做一個追問我們在強制執行法我們的第一條其實他就開宗明義的講了就是我們整個強制執行應依照公平合理的一個原則兼顧債權人跟債務人及其他利害關係人的一個權益"},{"start":5664.855,"end":5681.817,"text":"﹗"},{"start":5682.526,"end":5684.908,"text":"2016年2016年2016年台灣高等法院座談會的研討意見跟審查意見裡面去講到受險的保單責任準備金"},{"start":5708.908,"end":5712.072,"text":"所謂這個財政執行法裡面所談到的責任財產就是它的財產、它的債權這一些授權保單的責任準備金並不是債務人的責任財產的範圍且法院不宜介入代為終止債務人所訂的授權保單"},{"start":5725,"end":5743.069,"text":"人身保險是保險人的生存跟死亡及身體健康屬於被保險人的人格權基於人身無價﹐某些生命保險兼具投資性生命法益跟身體健康的一個法益具有一身的專屬性應無代位權規定之適用這2016年啊你台灣高等法院你做出來的呢這都主持沒發官的"},{"start":5749.554,"end":5768.884,"text":"學有專精勒你看看你們2022年大法庭所做出來的這樣的一個裁定啊2022年大法庭你們所做出的裁定主人說執行法院在必要時得執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約命第三人就保險公司償付這個解約金豆餅見解就完全不同了嘛 民主黨 廳長"},{"start":5774.81,"end":5797.692,"text":"對不對那接下來會衍生的很多的問題委員那這一個部分因為本來人壽保險的保單價值準備金到底性質是不是具有一身專屬性本來就有爭議所以最高法院才會做108年台抗大的897號裁定是那我要問的就是這個效果就天下大亂了"},{"start":5799.414,"end":5824.068,"text":"是不是天下大亂?造成法院執行處的重大負擔噢 不是我在意的不是法院的重大負擔我在意的是這些保護這些老百姓他有很多保險契約有很多付款欸你們想到的是說噢造成法院好多的負擔我想到的是這些老百姓怎麼辦因為我們這些說司法獨立審判的法官造出做出來這樣不同的見解假設我今天"},{"start":5828.154,"end":5829.395,"text":"中央政府總預算關於司法院及"},{"start":5833.439,"end":5838.463,"text":"我選擇你那張就強制執行啊你說哇!莊瑞雄有一張保單在那個地方你給他申請強制執行啊那以現在2016年台灣高等法院司講說不行莊瑞雄那張有一身專屬性總裁變成在那裡停了他受討厭他又站到了你知道嗎那你現在把它終止掉的話現在不是只有變成說把它當成是我的責任財產的一部分那就可以強制執行囉"},{"start":5859.622,"end":5882.176,"text":"那強制執行以後就按照強制執行法第1條第2項裡面說你這哪有公平就會損失一道相關關係人受益人也是啊是是還不只勒還不只勒我這一張保險單裡面我還有好多付款啊包括我的傷害保險啊健康保險啊全部都全部沒了我不相信只有台灣會碰到這種狀況全世界各國都有保險商品啊"},{"start":5886.732,"end":5887.413,"text":"所以必須要由保險局把這些釐清我們才有辦法定一個"},{"start":5916.916,"end":5923.142,"text":"責任準備金是說我的保護我要保人或者說被保險人我一直繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳�"},{"start":5938.035,"end":5940.698,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。��"},{"start":5961.96,"end":5967.501,"text":"感謝委員的提示這個非常重要那政府本來就應該要實務就是要合乎時宜嘛要情話裡兼顧"},{"start":5990.586,"end":6013.247,"text":"那我們跟今天我們相關這個初類型的機關我們要協力啦一定要協力大家協調喔司法院會來盡力來協調這不要用講的這用做的大法庭裏面的裁定裏面我去看到他的威嚴大義到有一個地方他指出一條明路啦他去講到說啊"},{"start":6014.898,"end":6034.412,"text":"目前我們沒有強制執行程序裏面採取像德國、歐盟那樣的介入權那我的像比如說相關的利害關係人我就可以來介入啦總部下面認為說欸我是受益人捏捷軍客只剩40萬他還要賣他可以來介入他說來啊我來帶腳啊這是一個方式啊那我們的條文裏面拜託這個局長你很努力啦"},{"start":6043.294,"end":6071.551,"text":"各國的法制這個部分可以去完備我們這些受益人或者被保險人整個體制要讓他完備阿阿不然你像這個問題你要怎麼解管你說瑞士你說德國奧地利日本他們有這樣的一個立法力強制執行程序裡面就可以有第三人相關相當的關係人他可以去做一個介入那我們應該也要往這樣的一個方向去這個是最高法院的裁定裡面有去講到這個啦"},{"start":6072.512,"end":6084.708,"text":"那我相信啊既然有去講到你總不能只有把2016年你法院自己做出來的一個座談會的一個決議要法官來遵守然後讓整個社會太平那你後面又做出一個裁定讓社會天下大亂"},{"start":6088.003,"end":6115.281,"text":"請秘書長你的看法這個我們一定要積極面對啦一定要積極面對來克服我們相關的機關說法院一定會盡量來協調來積極面對強制執行只有一個概念這個責任財產裡面你雖然透過法院要保上當事人債權人的權利可是這個執行程序裡面我們第一條就揭示公平合理跟最小侵害原則"},{"start":6116.618,"end":6116.838,"text":"二、處理129案"},{"start":6133.533,"end":6145.121,"text":"我會覺得啊司法院這邊責無旁貸保險局家也責無旁貸這已經拖久了耶羅總經理剛才總委人家在說你講20幾萬件齁都講幾件我們便宜中心目前只收到11件這樣子啊幾十件你怎麼處理因為這個不是你只說我們沒那麼多對不對不是我們這個不符合我們這個金融消費者是當然嘛所以你只說沒那麼多嘛"},{"start":6161.514,"end":6164.937,"text":"還有受益人你沒有放進去啊整個保險的相關關係人你沒有放進去啦不然這個數目更大囉"},{"start":6187.557,"end":6197.445,"text":"秘書你是不是這樣我要特別提醒就是說在我們保險實務上常見的授權我們保單裡面你除了這些組約以外你常常會有一些意外傷害還有實質我們整個醫療險或者長期的一個照顧險的一些復約局長你應該很清楚你把這個終止整個保險保單然後取回解約金分配給債權人然後保險的付款全部都終止掉"},{"start":6218.432,"end":6237.098,"text":"當初大家在說人身保險我們託的錢都被託了,對不對?你的看法?是,所以我們才會要求保險公司有一個復約延續條款,不能終止他的復約可是問題是說復約終止條款,你現在如果按照大法庭的一個見解的話"},{"start":6237.978,"end":6238.538,"text":"所以我們加速好不好,秘書長跟局長"},{"start":6262.866,"end":6284.546,"text":"謝謝,我們一定會跟相關機關一起來積極來面對這個問題,司法院會來協調不是只有什麼一個月交報告,要加速修法,國外的立法制德國可以參考,澳國可以參考,連澳地利可以參考,日本也可以參考啊,他們都有介入權的一個規定啊,好不好?好,謝謝"},{"start":6287.776,"end":6303.913,"text":"好 謝謝秘書長、局長、總經理接下來請林委員4名質詢好 謝謝主席請秘書長有請秘書長"},{"start":6309.723,"end":6321.753,"text":"市民部長好我想今天大家都非常關心這個司法院這個裁定下來所造成的整個衝擊甚至於我們稍微講說這個真的是一個災難"},{"start":6323.615,"end":6344.712,"text":"我想這個最高法院這個108年抗治第897號所造成的整個影響真的叫做知識體大首先我們看這個新收的案件這個新收的案件到112年高達193萬件也就接近的200件所以我第一個問題就請問議務長"},{"start":6347.114,"end":6357.013,"text":"到底各地的民事執行處尤其士林跟台北地方法院的執行處聽說這兩百萬個案件如何來消化"},{"start":6358.427,"end":6384.201,"text":"你司法院如何來因應這麼大的一個案件量所以這個突然增加這麼多嘛那我們一定要緊急應變啦所以同仁的健康權你要怎麼保障是不是我們想我們前陣子才一直在關心這些同仁大家的一個身心健康的一個保障結果因為這一個裁定新收案突然暴增這麼多的案件"},{"start":6385.923,"end":6397.975,"text":"司法院你要趕快去做出相關的一個大家剛才召委講做出相關的行政指導做出相關的指引有沒有在做這個我們一定會盡速積極來你發覺問題了嘛大家都發覺這個問題了嘛到底要怎麼做"},{"start":6403.851,"end":6428.228,"text":"就是像台北地院那邊我們就緊急新增7個執行局嘛那司機關有增加7人啦打眼7人那司法書館5人啦那包括有的人力也增加了17個啦包括相關的這個辦公室我們也都趕快來增設啦所以增設這麼多人力就是要去處理這個"},{"start":6429.789,"end":6452.481,"text":"這方面的案件一定要克服啊所以嘛 秘書長這個當然是一個治標啦但是如何治本如何治本其實我先來救教秘書長一下喔秘書長我想這個裁定啦講說執行法願於必要時得核發執行命令終止債務人為遙保人的人壽保險契約何謂必要時啊"},{"start":6454.031,"end":6472.739,"text":"副處長,我想你本人也當過我們的司法官得高望重何謂必要時,這麼不確定的法律概念我們的大法庭的這些法官在他的一個裁定裡面講必要時何謂必要時,我真的搞不懂,何謂必要時"},{"start":6475.157,"end":6477.678,"text":"所以把這個必要時的認定就交給我們民事執行處的法官、書記官以及相關的人員是不是?"},{"start":6490.72,"end":6503.356,"text":"所以必要的一些有一些目前應應這樣的一個重災可以說是重災區司法院一定要趕快今天也也很感謝有這樣一個專題我們相關的"},{"start":6506.34,"end":6536.34,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6536.8,"end":6557.206,"text":"因為我想我們都在實務上曾經我們都曾經打滾過了我們的執行處有這個量能叫債權人債務人來講說欸阿母你兩個你們兩個談談看你們結束一下你們的意見我們能去這個真的在實務上有這個量能去做嗎"},{"start":6559.465,"end":6576.564,"text":"大法這些大法庭的法官們你把這樣的一個裁定意旨說你寫一寫說這樣就是必要性的一個原則叫我們的民事執行處的法官你們要去參酌你們要在這個執行的時候要去考量這些因子你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":6577.705,"end":6594.549,"text":"只問移民的實務經驗我們這些民事執行處的人員有辦法實質去認定說這符不符合必要性啊聽聽兩兆的解釋就可以去認定然後有可能叫兩兆每一個案子都叫兩兆來問嗎有這個量能嗎"},{"start":6598.68,"end":6618.029,"text":"所以在司法行政我們能著力的一定會很困難嘛就因為我對這個裁定我想很多人都有意見只是因為一個裁定造成這麼大的一個災難三書啦剛才我們莊惠雄也講造成三書啦"},{"start":6619.349,"end":6645.297,"text":"那我也看到這個金管會的一個報告報告中寫到說我們實務執行面所面臨的問題為健康險還有我們的傷害保險被執行影響的基本保障所以前開民事大法庭的裁定主要是針對人壽保險契約的解約金為之為實務上執行上已擴及健康保險及傷害保險"},{"start":6646.377,"end":6659.568,"text":"所以我想請問民主黨現在是我們司法實務上對於這種這個以廓極的健康保險及傷害保險我們要如何補救這一部分我們民視聽也有相當的好請聽長"},{"start":6662.189,"end":6676.02,"text":"謝謝委員那關於這個受險契約我們在強制執行的時候會先去確認他到底是投資型或者是純粹的受險或者有附加其他的保險我們會審酌那因為我們的標準"},{"start":6679.963,"end":6703.814,"text":"剛剛委員有指教如果從強制執行法第一條跟強制執行法122條看似不是一個明確的準則但事實上在實務運作上普通是沒有其他的問題司法事務官的專業能力也無庸置疑所以在審酌上沒有問題那我們還透過很多的程序來達到"},{"start":6705.835,"end":6723.221,"text":"所以聽一下我打斷你一下就是說因為現在裁定是針對人壽險這個標的嘛但是現在我看金管會講說這個有擴大到傷害險以及健康險所以他這個對傷害的傷害險及健康險的保單也可以作為執行標的喔"},{"start":6724.698,"end":6748.575,"text":"不是這樣子的,就是說我們的臺康大的這個897號裁定,它只針對受險,其實它沒有針對傷害跟醫療險這些,它沒有做裁定,是,我們的,就是說它的裁定是有限制的。您現在講沒有嘛,那個,局長,我請今晚回號,管理局我們司局長。"},{"start":6753.396,"end":6782.475,"text":"市長,我看你的報告裡面寫說這個會擴大到我們的傷害險以及健康保險的保單這部分,因為剛才司法院跟我講不會啊你寫說會擴及啊市長,我們確實有聽到業者的反應確實有一些健康險有被強制執行所以我們的健康險裡面有一年期的跟長期的保單是,尤其是癌症險嘛,我想剛才稍微講說尤其是癌症的保單"},{"start":6783.696,"end":6808.655,"text":"這個非常重要啊但是你癌症的保單也作為強制執行的標的這個司法院看你們兩個說法不一樣欸對不起這可能是因為他在主約有綁約定所以使得主約終止以後復約復約就一起被終止那如果是單純的這個不是人受險的復約這部分執行法院可以去執行他嗎"},{"start":6809.855,"end":6837.569,"text":"其實這個部分我們通常不會這樣做因為其實法院在考量的時候我們真的...其實那個...聽著你講不會啦其實我可以告訴你執行處真的沒有這個量能去做判斷只要人家去執行他就馬上就給他查封了啦就馬上就給他終止了啦健康險跟這種醫療險通常都不會有所謂的解約金今天您這樣講我希望您責成真的喔未來各地方法院的民事執行處"},{"start":6838.803,"end":6868.243,"text":"對於這種不是赴約的健康險還有傷害保險不能給他去做這個作為執行的標的要訂出很明確的指引再來最後我再問一下我最近也接到一個陳情案件就是說保險邀保人是他父親被保險人是配偶跟子女繳了20幾年的保單爸爸辛辛苦苦工作為他的子女保了一個人壽保險還沒有到期"},{"start":6868.903,"end":6890.985,"text":"但是今天突然間就被解約啊這個爸爸哭著跟我講他說這個是我為子女的一個保障耶結果現在就被你們終止了我的孩子就沒有保障失去保障了我的老婆也是未來萬一發生什麼事情啊完全失去我們保險的一個保障"},{"start":6892.439,"end":6900.524,"text":"這讓他情何以堪啊?哭著跟我講啊!所以我會講說一個裁定造成這麼大的社會的一個影響"},{"start":6902.037,"end":6926.503,"text":"所以對於這種邀保人跟被保險人不同的這種保單未來是不是可以去思考就是說這種保單我們在執行上面要特別的去注意可不可以把它排除我這樣講好了邀保人跟被保險人不一樣的話可不可以排除就是可以不被執行可不可以"},{"start":6928.95,"end":6950.83,"text":"這種類型的那請那個保安局啊這個部分可能要看看大家的共識啊這確實契約非常的複雜是啊所以你保險種類非常多啊所以這個我就提出來你就講這個就造成人間悲劇啊萬一他的太太真的得到癌症啊這保障又沒了啊"},{"start":6951.783,"end":6951.843,"text":"主席"},{"start":6978.637,"end":6979.901,"text":"謝謝民主黨局長。接下來請黃委員國昌質詢。"},{"start":6996.565,"end":7009.144,"text":"謝謝主席,馬上有請司法院秘書長以及法務部今天是法律事務司司長好了好,有請吳秘書長跟法務部劉司長委員好"},{"start":7016.532,"end":7035.297,"text":"兩位好,不一一問候上一次啊,4月14號在質詢的時候我們處理到有關於現在法院因為案件量大增那司法院提出非常多的要求希望立法院這一邊支援你們五千多位新的員額那這個我們等一下再說"},{"start":7036.477,"end":7049.514,"text":"那天在質詢的時候我已經清楚的秀出來了地方法院民事強制執行事件收案的數量不斷的暴增到2023年的時候已經到180億幾萬件了"},{"start":7051.957,"end":7066.686,"text":"那裡面如果我們以特定的法院強制執行沒有終結的案件對基如山大概暴漲數字從以前的大概7萬件現在已經14萬件多了幾乎是兩倍的數額"},{"start":7067.927,"end":7089.981,"text":"那天在質詢的時候我請教秘書長說針對堆積如山的案件你們到底做了什麼這件事情可不可以會後書面報告給全體的委員你說可以嗎那請問那個報告在哪裡那個委員是提到那個5536人那個人力的分配還是"},{"start":7091.28,"end":7119.006,"text":"不是啊我們4月24號詢答的內容您都忘了嗎?你看一下PPT啊refresh your memory看一下那一天我問你喔強制執行的案件對基魯山司法院做了什麼然後你說會後會提供給書面報告給大家因為我那天質詢的時候你開始跟我扯啊扯說提報的司法人員特考需用名額那那個是未來的事情啊"},{"start":7120.348,"end":7143.004,"text":"強制執行的案件堆積如山影響到了非常多債權人債務人的權益造成了第一線執行科的書記官還有很多工作統人工作的負擔大家都快要爆肝了我那天具體的問題是司法院做了什麼你那天答不出來我請你會後叫書面書面在哪裡"},{"start":7144.664,"end":7163.319,"text":"我們實際上就是說在臺北地縣執行處有增加7個執行股那包括這個有司機關7個人、知達院7個人那書法事務官5個人先提一下那個秘書長請你聽問題好嗎第一個我剛剛問你的是書面在哪裡那書面的話那委員這邊因為我們這個"},{"start":7172.762,"end":7195.069,"text":"整理書面也要時間嘛有必要我們會馬上提供出來啦所以你還需要多久當初是你要求用書面跟我們回覆然後結果你今天跟大家講如果有必要你會提供司法院的態度是這樣嗎我不敢相信欸我們會盡量來配合啦對那你什麼時候要提供"},{"start":7196.382,"end":7204.348,"text":"你也太離譜了吧什麼叫我有需要欸你看一下你上次答詢的內容好不好是你自己說要給書面的欸對所以我剛問你嘛你需要多少時間嘛一個禮拜之內上次質詢是幾月幾號"},{"start":7214.568,"end":7233.851,"text":"那這個總是要彙整啊對嘛所以我說你需要多少時間上次你是4月24號你剛說需要一個禮拜我問你東西在哪裡我們會彙整出來有需要我們會提供出來啊對不起你這樣的回答我無法接受當初是你自己開口"},{"start":7235.228,"end":7256.122,"text":"所以你要用書面回答結果你今天跟大家講有需要你們會提供你什麼態度啊那書面我們當然會提供出來什麼時候提供那剛剛不是講一個禮拜之內我們從什麼時候開始算一個禮拜從今天開始算一個禮拜剛剛你說你有新增執行股什麼時候新增的那就是應應這個需要什麼時候新增的那個就已經都新增了什麼時候新增的"},{"start":7265.37,"end":7266.09,"text":"四月的時候。"},{"start":7287.694,"end":7304.404,"text":"沒有關係啊民事執行處有很多案件啊有保險的有非保險的各式各類強制執行的案件我上次質詢你們的時候是點出這個問題欸我點出這個問題的時候我收到非常多民事執行處工作的同仁"},{"start":7305.868,"end":7308.429,"text":"機關在運作也有一定的程序啦"},{"start":7329.276,"end":7333.181,"text":"來 我們看一下我們看一下這個案件數暴漲的情況到2023年的時候已經爆表了所以你司法院是怎麼樣"},{"start":7343.39,"end":7360.836,"text":"到今年4月開始有委員在問這個問題今天才告訴大家你是4月才新增執行股喔沒有關係啊一個禮拜之內請你把書面交出來到底做了什麼清楚的跟大家講我們會提出來會提出來來"},{"start":7364.212,"end":7391.569,"text":"就有關於判決查詢系統這個相關吼跟今天解凍的事由有關係你們自己再回去check一下了我常常查判決查不到司法院的同仁幫秘書長把照片拍起來地院的有高院的有最高法院的沒有最高法院的有中間的抗制少一個這個是什麼判決查詢系統啊你們自己拍個照這個是我昨天晚上我隨便找就出來的"},{"start":7394.631,"end":7423.272,"text":"來請法務部有一件事情請你們請你們回去查清楚我上次在這邊質詢有我們之前國會的職員很可惡竟然勾結非法的詐騙集團引進中國人來台洗錢詐騙去年11月的時候判刑確定了去年11月判刑確定通常這種案子發監執行要多久"},{"start":7425.728,"end":7426.788,"text":"法務部現在是連發簽執行的系統都出了狀況嗎?"},{"start":7453.036,"end":7481.082,"text":"為什麼這個勾結外面的人引進中國人到台灣來搞非法詐騙洗錢的到現在還在外面爬爬罩他是關係好嗎判決確定都不用去關喔有這種事情喔請法務部回去了解一下這個案件為什麼拖延這麼久我們了解後再跟我們說明謝謝去年12月的時候開始有"},{"start":7482.256,"end":7495.035,"text":"在網路上面流傳一個監聽的名單那個時候監聽的名單出來的時候非常罕見我們的調查局我們的廉政署我們的最高檢察署說這是典型的認知作戰"},{"start":7496.309,"end":7521.062,"text":"三大執法機關的新聞稿我全部都拜讀完了我老實說啦我拜讀完了以後我看不出來他們說這個是認知作戰指的到底是什麼東西但我關心一件事情因為在我國目前基本上面監聽是要法官核監聽票的所以這不是只有檢查機關的事情"},{"start":7522.617,"end":7549.184,"text":"如果這個是境外敵對勢力的認知作戰那事情很嚴重喔為什麼很嚴重因為監聽有他的密情性嘛你如果讓他知道了你再監聽他那你還聽什麼沒有意義嘛但是去年我們聯政署、最高檢察署、調查局發了新聞稿說這是認知作戰但沒有回答一個問題什麼問題"},{"start":7552.287,"end":7576.706,"text":"這個監聽的名單是真的還是假的?如果是真的 怎麼外流的?這很嚴重欸秘書長 同不同意這件事情很嚴重?那當然嚴重啊好 法務部覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重?是 是頗嚴重好 既然很嚴重的話蔡京強說齁 這個我們要強力的偵辦來 我先確定一下事實齁這些監聽的名單"},{"start":7580.725,"end":7598.029,"text":"﹗"},{"start":7598.623,"end":7618.416,"text":"政府機關有一定的分工啦那這些有些是涉及比較機密那一部分啦所以沒有沒有沒有我上面跟你講國安監聽我全部都拿掉了啦這個基本上都是在辦貪腐案件的啦我一件一件去比對過了"},{"start":7619.857,"end":7643.947,"text":"因為當初這個監聽名單外流的時候我非常震驚啊有一些案子是我們之前我自己回到民間社會的時候就在追查的案子我看了這個監聽名單我非常的震驚我的理由是說我們國家檢票機關從法院那邊拿到了監聽票去監聽這個名單會外流非常可怕"},{"start":7644.901,"end":7671.749,"text":"如果是境外敵對勢力所掌握的那就更可怕我所知道我目前在討論這個問題的時候分兩個層次第一個如果這些名單是假的如果這些名單全部都假的我們就比較不用那麼擔心因為這是典型的什麼認知作戰嘛拿假的東西跟大家說啊這個是真的但如果這個是真的問題就嚴重了"},{"start":7673.014,"end":7688.164,"text":"問題就嚴重了為什麼這些被監聽的名單竟然會在網路上面流傳名單怎麼外洩的這絕對不是發一個新聞稿說這個是認知作戰就可以解決的現在問題來了"},{"start":7689.824,"end":7690.244,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝秘書長和司長接下來請"},{"start":7719.96,"end":7721.021,"text":"謝謝主席有請秘書長"},{"start":7750.263,"end":7770.977,"text":"請文明署長主席會議詢問一下我們以前疫情期間不是都會消毒嗎?麥克風是不曉得有沒有準備有嗎?有準備酒精嗎?就是那我們等一下我們停個一分鐘等一下等一下沒問題我們暫停一下那個"},{"start":7789.37,"end":7811.262,"text":"4月24日我們針對司法人員檢押有一個專報我那天還有一些我認為還需要跟您進一步對話那今天主席又安排了司法院我就在把握時間跟您再對話那你們也在5月7號提據了依據我們上一次專報之後的一個報告"},{"start":7813.183,"end":7827.829,"text":"那你們的報告就是要提修法我們中央政府總原額法如何來突破給予司法人員來增補一個最好的支持你們那個報告上面寫得很好一句話世界上並不存在唾手可得的正義"},{"start":7829.639,"end":7858.132,"text":"也就是說司法人員是捍衛社會正義國家正義很重要的一道防線但是要給司法人員最好的支持制度面、人力、物力各方面下一頁所以呢我上一次的專報的幾個減壓我們要對司法人員賦予他更好的工作環境讓他發揮司法的效能也就是我的具體建議我還是要花點時間我再跟大家再分享一次"},{"start":7858.892,"end":7869.746,"text":"司法院應設心理調適架重視員工身心調適的需求第二、吳思瑤支持我們要合理增加員額而司法院應當來規劃增補人力的時程"},{"start":7872.898,"end":7879.526,"text":"第三、民事新收案量龐大但是濫訴的駁回案件少我們如何強化來審查落實第四、民事訴訟裁判費21年沒有調整從2003年開始到現在沒有調整我們是不是能夠適度的來調整來防渡濫訴"},{"start":7892.182,"end":7910.3,"text":"最後一個呢也是我希望司法院針對這整個人員減壓的對策其實要委託一個專業實證的研究好這是我的幾大主張好下一頁那從我4月24的質詢我要肯定一下我當時提出臺北地院"},{"start":7911.201,"end":7925.718,"text":"他針對你們已經上路的員工協助方案EAP但是呢這個心理健康關懷方案只適用給法官那像司法事務官啊書記官啊法官助理這些其他職工沒有用沒有辦法適用"},{"start":7926.559,"end":7955.549,"text":"那我秀出來的before是你們台北地院原本的公告我一質詢之後After馬上改也就是台北地院的所有的除了法官所有的法官助理們事務官們書記官們都可以來用EAP就應當如此所以祕書長我們是不是再花個時間去盤點我們這一套EAP的關懷方案應當所有的地院都要適用好嗎好謝謝擴大所有的司法人員是是"},{"start":7956.213,"end":7956.439,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":7957.813,"end":7983.804,"text":"那我也看到我們的院長他有台中地院就是徐院長有建議說我們要認真來面對我們的減壓的相關計畫所以台中地院動作很快他就做了一個公告台中地院的法官這些書記官們呢享有半天假而且是公假可以去美術館看展覽您知道有這個制度嗎"},{"start":7987.287,"end":8009.237,"text":"有這種制度。各法院都會彈性來運用。彈性來運用嗎?是用工假半天?我不曉得工假半天這個是一年只給半天還是多久給半天?還是?這個各法院可以彈性處理。好。那您認為這是不是一個好的做法?這個很好的做法。非常好。像我自己在立法院每天這麼高壓,上美術館。"},{"start":8010.794,"end":8012.536,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。��"},{"start":8032.717,"end":8034.998,"text":"我希望是能夠有常態化的制度,也就是心理價。"},{"start":8056.414,"end":8056.514,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":8080.999,"end":8097.366,"text":"那回到我上次說的也是你們提供的數字法官呢還缺499人總人力的需求是5536人這是目前為止所以補20年可能都補不起來下一頁"},{"start":8098.662,"end":8117.575,"text":"這是你們5月7號所提供的書面報告就是我剛剛援引的我也很認真的都從頭看到尾但是你們說要修總原額法修法交給立法院交給我們來做但是呢你們要突破的是先補齊492人對不對因為現在一萬五裡頭只有預算原額14508先補492第二個還要再突破總原額一萬五的上限"},{"start":8128.843,"end":8142.385,"text":"那你覺得樂觀嗎?所以我們當時就期盼人總也能夠來協助,看能不能突破上限。好,下一頁。"},{"start":8143.627,"end":8159.304,"text":"收罰我們來做我絕對支持但是我認為如何讓立法院協助你們幫你們一把就是你們除了要快速的補齊492人之外也要把15000這個天花板打破那你就提出一個更具體的人力增補計劃跟時程你提出來被國會認為合理可行"},{"start":8165.171,"end":8192.862,"text":"那我們就有更大的助力了不是嗎?是是好不好你們這個人力增補計畫跟時程我不會像黃國昌委員今天要你明天交出資料來一個禮拜交出資料來您要多久時間可以去做一個完整的兩個月三個月我們應該是在兩三個月內就可以那我就給你兩個月的時間好不好去做一個好的時程跟計畫假如能三個月可能還要評鑑啦三個月合理我認為要好好做"},{"start":8194.003,"end":8219.805,"text":"所以說當你們能夠提出而且我要在這裡提醒考試禁用的是我們比較常使用的嘛對不對那多元禁用的比較有困難但是多元禁用的反而是即戰力所以未來要補強眼前的492人或是未來一萬五的這個天花板要打開我也希望你們具體針對考試禁用類跟多元禁用類去找出可行的方法"},{"start":8220.225,"end":8220.285,"text":"是是是"},{"start":8242.102,"end":8242.222,"text":"謝謝,那下一頁"},{"start":8260.387,"end":8283.323,"text":"好我們來講講這個爛數每年司法院2180位法官每年新收的案件從民事案件314萬跟刑事的案件49萬加起來363萬件是每年新案還不包括手上的舊案所以平均一位法官每年要新做"},{"start":8284.184,"end":8313.303,"text":"一千六百六十五件這就是現在的困境工作loading太大了下一頁那爛訴的部分我們民事訴訟法2021年1月修了給予一個條款第249條也就是可以駁回爛訴的條款對不對那您知道這個法條修了以後幫你們一把上路法條到現在三年多有幾個案子駁回嗎"},{"start":8317.547,"end":8335.662,"text":"我的資料是288案正確嗎?是那您覺得這個數字有回應了這個修法的良法美意嗎?協助替大家減壓該裁定駁回的不符合程序或者是欠缺合理依據的就該駁回288件三年"},{"start":8338.288,"end":8355.734,"text":"因為呈現在訴訟案件裡面如果做了實質實體上的審判用到249條249條之一的案件相對會比較少一點因為畢竟惡意或或者是基於不當目的是相對少數"},{"start":8356.474,"end":8381.659,"text":"相對少數那您認為是本質上相對少數還是我們的現場的法官也會有他的壓力我今天如果去撥回了我撥回的案子比較多是不是被我的上級認為說我比較不認真辦案會不會有這種心理壓力不會不會依法審判沒有這種壓力只是說我們的爛數大部分不是落在實體審判方面而是在程序"},{"start":8382.099,"end":8382.799,"text":"二十一年沒有調整的訴訟的費用"},{"start":8404.893,"end":8431.261,"text":"你們有沒有演繹可以去想辦法?其實我們在民事訴訟法還有一個77條之27那高等法院就可以因為必要的情勢來擬定數而提高徵收加徵的標準那我們現在目前已經跟高等法院研商讓他們啟動研究程序看看是不是提高徵收標準來解決這個問題"},{"start":8433.482,"end":8461.436,"text":"我想問一下臺灣的這個裁判的費用跟國際你們有比較過嗎?是我們當時立法的時候其實是跟日本的徵收的比例大概相當大概都是當時是相當於1%只是日本跟我們不一樣是日本油電費也就是油資他還要徵收那我們現在修法以後是不用徵收"},{"start":8462.276,"end":8483.229,"text":"我也支持你們勇敢去計算當然我們如果要調漲裁判費用我們當然也要去強化我們對弱勢的保護不會讓司法因為他的政經地位高他能夠來擁有司法的權利如果政經地位比較低的我們有另外的法律輔助的機構這雙軌都要並進但基本上我認為一個收費標準徵收標準20幾年沒有調整是可以來考量合理的反應成本"},{"start":8491.954,"end":8495.658,"text":"我今天再一次把握機會我的這幾個建議請你們三個月統合給我一個完整的回覆好不好我們一起加油那也希望大家每一次來國會回去心情要盡量保持亮麗"},{"start":8515.276,"end":8518.777,"text":"好,先做會議程序的宣告稍後在政委員天才詢答完畢後休息5分鐘接續請政委員天才進行詢答"},{"start":8555.559,"end":8580.095,"text":"主席、各位委員有請司法院秘書長有請吳秘書長委員好秘書長好昨天跟今天早上外交國防委員會在審查陸海空軍懲罰法這裡面很重要的就是說到底"},{"start":8581.551,"end":8608.599,"text":"怎麼樣的,因為在討論的過程當中一直希望這個司法院針對這個軍人啊怎麼樣的處懲罰他是一個懲戒還是懲罰這個譬如說軍官、士官、士兵這個行政院版的這個入海工軍懲罰法裡面第18條"},{"start":8610.305,"end":8635.116,"text":"譬如說撤職士官也有撤職這個都是職業軍人然後士兵也有職業軍人廢職起義然後也有剝奪或減少退出集議軍官、士官都有財產前的一個剝奪甚至工作前的撤職"},{"start":8638.126,"end":8638.526,"text":"可以嗎?可以"},{"start":8666.172,"end":8692.511,"text":"因為現在我們的軍人真的是越來越少所以大家要保障他們的工作權上次這時間的關係上一次在今年的3月4號我在這邊有執行過秘書長當然這個案子更早之前我也執行過前任的秘書長就是說這個我們有一個鄉親"},{"start":8695.626,"end":8700.288,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。．並備質詢"},{"start":8721.54,"end":8740.158,"text":"上列被告因違反山坡地保育利用條例違反山坡地保育利用條例事實上整個查了之後雖然有法輔的律師法輔基金會這邊也有在當初要請法輔的律師也協助"},{"start":8741.118,"end":8771.118,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8771.596,"end":8771.976,"text":"被判刑"},{"start":8784.782,"end":8813.575,"text":"後來查了結果才知道原來他不是山坡弟不是山坡弟所以引用了錯誤的法律錯誤的法律雖然他已經過世了但是還是要平反啊畢竟他的子女永遠被一查這個是一個犯刑刑法的被判刑的子女甚至他的子女要繼續使用啊"},{"start":8814.693,"end":8816.433,"text":"所以本席也曾經在這邊質詢過109年11月5號所以這個部分"},{"start":8844.332,"end":8873.335,"text":"你們也很慎重的台灣高等法院及所屬法院法律座談會列了這個臨時提案有假說跟已說結果呢主持人本提案保留不宜討論本提案不宜這麼重大的事情所以我才會在上次上次的時候特別"},{"start":8874.955,"end":8889.436,"text":"請秘書長回去請同仁再重新來討論上次秘書長說演議再演議這個部分如果還沒有結果的話不要忘記繼續來趕快去處理好不好"},{"start":8896.989,"end":8913.398,"text":"這部份已經有送起高院來進行座談會的演繹就是說列為今年度的這個法律座談會的討論很好就做詳細的說明好不好最主要是要做詳細的說明民主黨可以嗎這個會這樣好好謝謝"},{"start":8918.356,"end":8931.661,"text":"好 謝謝政委員 謝謝民主黨在這裡預作會議宣告待會休息五分鐘之後呢我們回來處理臨時提案那如果有意加入很快有意加入連署的委員請趕快加入謝謝那現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":8965.486,"end":8991.681,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":8991.981,"end":8992.261,"text":"主席"},{"start":9005.159,"end":9012.183,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）並備質詢"},{"start":9027.073,"end":9027.794,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9045.815,"end":9059.6,"text":"我知道在這個參考就是說你們可以去參考這個意思是因為我們不曉得在你面前我們不曉得你可以參考這個問題你寫的這句話讓人很痛苦對,你不要糟蹋我們這個是我的心態"},{"start":9063.251,"end":9081.527,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9081.847,"end":9082.567,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9106.476,"end":9106.976,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9136.496,"end":9136.877,"text":"是能力很和諧"},{"start":9152.58,"end":9156.181,"text":"阿他們文章會修改,阿他們會修改。阿這五個,一定是總統去修改,不然修修就..."},{"start":9181.206,"end":9185.669,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。"},{"start":9211.186,"end":9230.828,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9230.828,"end":9241.133,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）並備質詢五、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。"},{"start":9261.578,"end":9281.664,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9284.416,"end":9290.678,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。"},{"start":9309.416,"end":9312.758,"text":"謝謝主席,主席有請我們司法院的秘書長跟我們金管會司局長"},{"start":9338.803,"end":9344.035,"text":"有請吳秘書長跟市局長委員好"},{"start":9345.567,"end":9364.196,"text":"因為我時間比較有限所以說我一次先把這個題目先講完我想我所關心的當然就是有關於這個保單借款的部分其實我想市局長非常清楚我們在這個疫情期間因為有這個保單借款的紓困以至於讓我們可以有受惠的人數有到16萬424人那麼整個總貸金額是142.67億元"},{"start":9369.918,"end":9384.747,"text":"這對於許多當時的家庭來講這確實是一個及時雨也許不多但是確實是讓他們有機會能夠來做使用那麼今天我們所討論的題目也很謝謝主席特別安排這樣的題目那就是他會變成是接下來"},{"start":9386.228,"end":9404.804,"text":"如果說在未來有這個債權情況發生的時候那麼現在我在房間聽到的是有一些保險的營業員他直接會跟你講說那你要不要先把你的保單拿去做借款這樣子的話你的準備金會降低那降低未來被強制執行的時候那他的金額就下降了"},{"start":9405.883,"end":9413.75,"text":"那他甚至於對於這些所謂的債權人來講他就沒有那麼的重要那麼等於是說這個事情回到務實面來講會變成什麼狀況那就是當有這樣的情況出來的時候對於保險公司來講那我會非常的審慎評估這個所謂的保單借款的"},{"start":9423.277,"end":9443.126,"text":"要保人他的必要性因為這個權衡之下對於保險公司來講我也要確保我的債權或者是說未來的部分那我往前來推演就是我想就教的是不論司法院或是保險局那就是當我們現在這個強制執行的過程當中到底保單借款的法律順位是什麼"},{"start":9443.746,"end":9466.725,"text":"如果就我們人壽保險的示範條款第18條來講的話保險公司他一定是有上述的包括欠款啊然後扣除之後那麼所剩的餘額他可以要求拿回來但是如果用強制執行法的話我們都知道法的位階是高於這個所謂的條款跟條約的他是以依法優先受償者之外"},{"start":9467.646,"end":9494.411,"text":"其他的債權人是按照數額來分攤我剛剛先想後面這一張再講前面這個部分是因為現在這個法在這裡我如果站在保險公司的立場我非常擔心的是我保單借款借出去之後我也是債權人之一但是如果就數額來講我是不是平均分配的數額要比較少要跟別人攤但是錢是我保單借出去的啊那再加上這個法規的條款跟執行法"},{"start":9497.575,"end":9516.911,"text":"執行法當中的未接又不對等所以我想要就教兩位這樣子的狀況未來有沒有可能產生我是不是先請施局長先來回應現在對於受險工會他們在面臨所給予的溝通的過程當中有沒有這樣的回應那有沒有可能有一個狀況是真的會變成是"},{"start":9519.873,"end":9537.112,"text":"好像後續大家都會覺得說我如果這個保單值錢尤其是我如果是身懷巨債的人我是不是就先把我的保單拿去把它借了那這樣今天我們討論的東西都沒有什麼好說的了因為你強制執行的過程中都已經貸沒吧因為他借款了 對"},{"start":9540.269,"end":9559.481,"text":"保單借款其實是我們保險企業賦予這個要保人的一個權利那如果他要借款的話其實保險公司在一定的保單價值準備金的陳述之下他是不可以拒絕的那以目前來看的話民法340條有規定啦"},{"start":9561.482,"end":9578.089,"text":"其實如果今天已經被扣押那扣押以後才保單借款的話那確實他不能抵銷啦但是如果是在扣押之前他就是覺得我有覺得我可能還不出錢來了我趕快先去保單借款"},{"start":9578.869,"end":9592.679,"text":"因為扣押之前他已經行使的保單借款的話這個部分從過去的那個判決確實是不能這個部分就可以行使抵銷權不能被後面參與分配啦好"},{"start":9594.38,"end":9600.424,"text":"那麼我想問一下司法院就是說如果就這個法律的位階來講的話因為我們都知道這個人壽保險的示範條例只是個條規甚至於只是寫在保單裡頭的一個項目但是就強制執行法來說的話它的位階是比較高的所以我們怎麼樣來因應因為我也必須講喔這些東西都需要保險公司願意配合"},{"start":9614.252,"end":9615.553,"text":"最後問一下市局長,那麼跟受選公會這邊有溝通嗎?"},{"start":9645.148,"end":9651.023,"text":"這一個部分應該受選工會他們討論還是依照示範條款的這樣的一個精神啦對"},{"start":9652.878,"end":9660.684,"text":"所以現在對於保險公會或者是保險公司來說他們比較覺得反映的是突然案件量增加但是至於後面的後續的操作上面是比較沒有爭議的部分"},{"start":9677.398,"end":9679,"text":"好,謝謝委員,謝謝秘書長。好,那麼現在我們來處理臨時提案,那請宣讀。"},{"start":9699.206,"end":9725.398,"text":"臨時提案一修正本略以為兼顧債權人、債務人及其他利害關係人權益維護保險保障功能。建請司法院參考司法院於107年8月7日函班之《刑事案件量刑及定執行刑參考要點之例》會同金管會保險局、法務部執行署、受刑工會根據保單類型解約金訂定排除範圍並設定一定金額以下解約金"},{"start":9726.078,"end":9749.923,"text":"李培鈞不得扣押及執行等項制定保單強制執行參考原則提案人委員鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、吳思瑤、吳宗憲、林楚英、羅志強宣讀完畢。好,那麼因為現在處理臨時提案第一案齁,那針對臨時提案請問機關有其他意見或補充修改,來,莊委員請。"},{"start":9751.064,"end":9751.224,"text":"主席"},{"start":9766.952,"end":9774.035,"text":"保險契約終止或者你解除以後那個我們在債務人在債權人在執行的他那個理賠的扣押的上限的問題而已是不是也一併把它解決再加一個也請我們剛幾位委員在執行裡面所提到的我們司法院會同這個金融監理機關這邊"},{"start":9791.042,"end":9791.902,"text":"有關介入權的部分應該在是"},{"start":9821.265,"end":9832.591,"text":"應該在這個主管機關是金管會不是司法院可能沒有辦法在同一包提案裡面解決以上來這樣子在場委員那個羅委員要表示意見嗎來請我很認同我們的宗嘉斌委員這個提案"},{"start":9838.727,"end":9860.841,"text":"實質上我覺得現在這個問題我覺得有一個東西是不是能夠請教一下我們的主管機關就是說一定金額以下的解約金跟理賠金然後不得扣押及執行那這一定金額你們有一個大概的所謂的一個想法嗎一定金額大概是多少請市局長幫忙做一個說明"},{"start":9871.633,"end":9885.104,"text":"當初我們有討論到的是那個結約金的部分但我還沒有討論到理賠給付的問題啦那初步我們當初有討論看看那時候有算一個金額大概10萬元"},{"start":9893.311,"end":9908.043,"text":"但是這個前提是我們把傷害險、健康險這些保障型的險種都已經先排除了針對一般的這個有儲蓄型的險種他就適用這個一定金額以下不予扣押"},{"start":9909.624,"end":9909.784,"text":"主席"},{"start":9934.36,"end":9934.68,"text":"以司法院"},{"start":9962.867,"end":9991.521,"text":"一零七年八月七日韓班之括號內部的為例這個就是保持原來的樣子鬥點後面寫才加入建請司法院會同金管會保險局法務部執行署受險工會根據保單類型解約金定定排除範圍並設定一定金額以下解約金理賠金不得扣押及執行等項"},{"start":9992.924,"end":10013.329,"text":"制定保單強制執行參考原則我想這樣才不會造成誤解因為畢竟前面的參考要點跟後面的參考原則是兩個完全不同類型的東西所以我們把它作為一個為例然後再建請司法院來會同其他相關機關來訂定那請問各位委員如果文字上狀況的修改是否可行"},{"start":10015.186,"end":10017.207,"text":"李委員坤澄"},{"start":10051.525,"end":10073.215,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個司法院的秘書長還有這個民視廳的廳長還有這個法務部的行政執行署的署長請吳秘書長、周廳長和法務部黃署長委員好謝謝秘書長這個也謝謝主席今天安排這麼有意義的一個題目"},{"start":10073.795,"end":10095.041,"text":"那這也應該是很難得在司法法制委員會可以一直繼續開下去不用中途被喊散會先請教一下這個強制執行保險契約目前有兩個機關一個是法院的民事執行處另外一個是法務部執行的執行署我先請教一下就是說"},{"start":10096.121,"end":10110.511,"text":"在我根據這個財政部的報告財政部的報告那財政部現在就是說這個如果欠稅的話是我由這一個法務部行政執行署來執行嘛是不是對那根據財政部的報告這個國稅局從111年12月9號到113年的4月30號這個這段時間應該就是在這個"},{"start":10118.076,"end":10121.259,"text":"最高法院民事大法庭裁定之後,國稅局的強制執行人授契約案件有509件,起徵稅額2.54億。"},{"start":10133.788,"end":10152.735,"text":"這是委由法務部行政執行署來做執行我看了一下你們這個執行你們有一個執行的原則在你們報告裡面也有你們執行原則有四個原則第一個傷害險期健康醫療險還有一個一年期的短壽險微型的保單"},{"start":10154.076,"end":10166.353,"text":"第三個,保險金額累計金額新台幣90萬以下的小型受險,還有預估解約金還有扣除手續費之後10萬元以下的受險契約,不宜扣押及執行。"},{"start":10169.077,"end":10170.438,"text":"法院的這個有關這個保單的這個執行這個案數是暴增"},{"start":10199.45,"end":10226.813,"text":"這個從112年1月到113年的3月合法扣押有34680件中時保險契約有8712件那我剛剛也聽了很多的委員在講這個不是只有說就你們法院來講這個案件是增加其實我們看到是更多這個保險人他們因為被扣了這個保單之後所衍生出來的"},{"start":10227.267,"end":10244.862,"text":"他們的這個復約不管是這個健康險或是說一些受險的一些相關的一些問題我們看到的是這個問題那可是我剛剛聽到了這一個你們在回覆這一個委員的這個答詢的時候尤其在法院的部分其實法院的部分你們目前有沒有什麼相關的準則"},{"start":10246.817,"end":10249.019,"text":"市長 秘書長 我是認為 這個可能請保險局這個司局長過來"},{"start":10272.419,"end":10289.11,"text":"當然就這個相關點業務來講應該是保險局那保險局那我因為我是認為說這一個這一個有關這個情人執行所他們的這個規定我認為也可以讓法院來做參考那保險局局長你認為勒?"},{"start":10292.157,"end":10292.738,"text":"那保險局認為呢?"},{"start":10312.403,"end":10321.003,"text":"報告委員行政執行署這個原則其實是跟我們討論的結果那我們未來的參考原則還會重新再檢討"},{"start":10322.779,"end":10344.489,"text":"在提供司法院還有行政執行署來參考這個是你們有跟這個行政執行署你們有去找過這個保險局來做討論那你們這個在保險法相關規定還沒修改之前可不可以就先按照這個讓這個法院來做一個參考我們就準備要做這個事情不然我剛剛聽這個不管是秘書長或是廳長他們就覺得說這個目前"},{"start":10348.911,"end":10349.332,"text":"民主黨,您認不認同?"},{"start":10369.258,"end":10369.278,"text":"委員"},{"start":10385.039,"end":10402.53,"text":"因為我們的執行債權人是一般民眾或者是金融機構不是行政機關所以我們跟行政執行署的強制執行的性質不太一樣我們一旦自己訂定一些不與執行的標準或要點出來其實債權人會異議"},{"start":10404.891,"end":10406.332,"text":"我聽到秘書長說是方向"},{"start":10430.792,"end":10451.981,"text":"這個準則我認為還是就是說保險局這邊這個在最短的時間你們可以多久的時間出來一個準則讓法院做參考的一個月我們五月底就要討論了五月底就要討論五月底討論然後不知道多久才會出來那六月應該就可以送給他們參考我是希望齁"},{"start":10454.485,"end":10468.082,"text":"在法院這邊因為引起最多民怨的其實是在法院案件也特別多那我希望說有一個準則其實也是減輕法官的這個負荷量那對於這個債務人也有相對的保障"},{"start":10469.363,"end":10485.272,"text":"這當然保障債權但是我們認為說有一些這個主約結束之後的副約其實剛剛大家提到的不管是健康險或是其他的保單其實要保障弱勢的這個也是我們今天特別召開這一個這個會議最主要的一個原因好不好"},{"start":10487.977,"end":10506.874,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝李委員謝謝秘書長等謝謝李委員的提問也讓我們民視廳廳長有機會說明行政執行署跟法院司法院他們在處理不同的要點原則所適用面對的對象是不太一樣的那在這裡呢也跟在場的委員做一個報告"},{"start":10507.635,"end":10527.696,"text":"那麼我們現在進行的議程在立法院是可以透過網路連結看到即時的影像那我之前也跟大家報告了今天的這個專題報告事實上有包括民間的電台主動的告知民眾要來收看那剛剛我們在臨題處理過程中"},{"start":10528.897,"end":10549.224,"text":"也已經有看到臨題處理過程的民眾打電話call in給電台的主持人他傳簡訊要我謝謝在場的委員也謝謝我們今天列席的機關代表謝謝大家這些可能因此身為此所苦的民眾看到我們今天的及時處理他們都如釋重負希望能夠早日能夠解除這樣的困擾"},{"start":10550.064,"end":10557.708,"text":"接下來我們繼續邀請洪孟凱委員, 洪孟凱, 洪孟凱委員不在,有請鄭振淺委員, 鄭振淺, 鄭委員不在,有請吳釗緯中線,請。好,謝謝釗緯,那我們請法務部及金管會"},{"start":10575.044,"end":10587.715,"text":"法務部黃署長今天提案我們是非常支持所以有參與聯署但是我等一下問的問題可能就比較離題但是我是非常支持趙偉的提案"},{"start":10598.425,"end":10606.57,"text":"主要是這樣啦,就是因為這段時間啊,詐欺案件一直暴增嘛,那除了一些福國利民的法案之外,我們也要去思考"},{"start":10607.27,"end":10626.016,"text":"而把一些對社會傷害比較大的事情我們要想想看要怎麼去處理當然所有的這種處理其實司法本來應該是最末端行政是前端就要處理結果我們現在有一點顛倒了我們把所有社會上面發生的事情我們就丟給檢警調讓他們去處理其實這個邏輯上是錯的"},{"start":10629.357,"end":10649.574,"text":"應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好他才會減少後階段司法的負荷並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情的發生那我想說我上個月有去參加高檢署的那個打詐的研討會那研討會裡面其實"},{"start":10652.416,"end":10676.402,"text":"這些問題大概都是老生常談了啦我們都知道現在詐欺集團他有一個最重要的東西他這個金流一定要有辦法他一定要拿到你的錢這他才有這個詐騙的意義所以呢他非常的需要一些工具那這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶啦電子支付帳戶個人幣商或第三方支付的帳戶或者是那個電信的門號"},{"start":10678.842,"end":10694.854,"text":"但是這段時間我們從這個數據我現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來其實這幾年起訴人頭賬戶的起訴率大概只有三成其實這個原因有非常多這個不能說都怪司法"},{"start":10695.274,"end":10713.681,"text":"因為當然第一個刑事訴訟制裁嚴格的證據主義再來就是其實有很多賬戶持有人他自己是被害人所以這個起訴率高跟低我不在這個上面去下一個價值的判斷但是呢我這邊要提的一個點就是當我們想到的是第一"},{"start":10715.814,"end":10742.495,"text":"第一層的帳戶那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶我覺得這個是目前一個很大的一個漏洞第一層的帳戶就是被害人把錢匯過去的那個是第一層的帳戶但是呢被害人他錢匯過去之後這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層那這個第二層跟第三層帳戶我請問一下金管會你們有在管理這個有在監控這個部分嗎"},{"start":10744.5,"end":10762.167,"text":"報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務啦,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西啦。"},{"start":10763.089,"end":10791.631,"text":"我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管"},{"start":10793.458,"end":10815.824,"text":"這個東西其實應該是監管會要去管的這個不是那個檢查機關或什麼他們已經沒有那麼多人力了所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決第二層賬戶跟第三層賬戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作讓被害人可以拿回錢因為我跟你說所有的被害人來找我"},{"start":10816.184,"end":10838.351,"text":"他心中只想一件事情我錢拿不拿的回來至於被告被判刑與否他說我一點都不在意我只希望錢拿回來救我這個家庭結果我們把真正該做的事情我們放錯重點了你放在第一層賬戶那些很多還是被害人起訴率又很低結果真正錢傳過去錢放在第二層第三層"},{"start":10838.831,"end":10868.831,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10870.853,"end":10884.967,"text":"這2層3層這個帳戶因為有非常多2層3層的帳戶他已經在非常多案件中出現過了可是還是持續可以用這真的不應該而且你在判決裡面看到有很多帳戶都重複出現結果沒有人管好不好"},{"start":10885.828,"end":10889.531,"text":"因為他去那個中心化到最後轉給真正幕後的那個人你根本追不到結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面就一個一個不見了"},{"start":10916.596,"end":10930.387,"text":"請看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回覆好不好那你再看喔我們看警示帳戶從110年到112年其實我們警示帳戶一直在增加等於是每天有75個新的警示帳戶"},{"start":10932.789,"end":10947.798,"text":"這是很恐怖的啊等於是你管理完全失能了就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢那導致現在社會上面民怨就是炸氣電信炸氣就是首要的"},{"start":10949.739,"end":10976.377,"text":"當然我們知道現在你們有要求銀行要做好KYC但是KYC做沒有太大的用處他在開戶的時候他就是一個正常的老百姓可是事後怎麼去使用怎麼提供給犯罪集團這個你追不到所以KYC你去做沒有錯可是你要知道不是只做KYC只做KYC沒有辦法杜絕這個人頭賬戶的越來越多人頭賬戶"},{"start":10979.439,"end":11002.591,"text":"那其實人頭賬戶我知道啦管理也不是沒有效果我知道大家都很努力所以人頭賬戶從我以前在當檢察官初期一本3000塊到現在一本要二三十萬這是政府打詐的成果沒有錯但是我覺得還是要積極做因為現在每年新的出來的人頭賬戶還是一大堆而且數量一直在往上面增加好那我們再往下看好"},{"start":11004.454,"end":11005.015,"text":"接下來我們請法務部"},{"start":11021.636,"end":11021.876,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11038.373,"end":11060.661,"text":"110年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了111年花了1100萬1100多那後面112年900也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢"},{"start":11062.569,"end":11084.248,"text":"是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持的預算跟行政院的撥用"},{"start":11084.608,"end":11114.334,"text":"但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的備案人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的"},{"start":11114.554,"end":11121.256,"text":"我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點"},{"start":11143.883,"end":11166.129,"text":"那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣"},{"start":11168.37,"end":11176.447,"text":"你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了"},{"start":11177.814,"end":11206.306,"text":"你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段"},{"start":11208.712,"end":11225.372,"text":"現階段是不是實用 你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘 回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告 而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦 因為馬上就520了"},{"start":11227.915,"end":11254.051,"text":"我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊"},{"start":11256.593,"end":11257.073,"text":"新北市府法治局"},{"start":11271.578,"end":11297.015,"text":"開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯"},{"start":11297.515,"end":11312.848,"text":"還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝好謝謝委員指導好謝謝吳昭偉謝謝署長接下來請盧偶委員致強質詢"},{"start":11330.046,"end":11333.65,"text":"主席,有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。"},{"start":11342.931,"end":11367.211,"text":"首先我這邊先感謝我們宗家兵委員召委安排今天這一場專報那針對強制執行保單解約的一個問題那邀請各個主管單位來報告因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題事實上我們也接到非常多的一些陳情案件那已經是真的是造成很廣大的民怨"},{"start":11367.751,"end":11392.548,"text":"其實不只造成民怨,其實他的案件也造成司法單位很大的負擔之前我們還一直在討論有關於司法法官的案件量過多所以造成今天負荷過重甚至有法官不幸墜樓像這種情形其實都跟我們在有些制度的設計上可能都有一些問題"},{"start":11393.368,"end":11420.526,"text":"所以非常感謝那個中嘉賓委員他今天安排這場專報但是我們今天這個臨時提案所以當中委員找我做這個臨時提案連述的話我也是馬上就同意不過這臨時提案其實也只是做權宜之計是在我們的法制跟制度跟政策修改之前那針對現在的亂象基本上等於是畫一個直寫的線而已但終究長遠來講的話我覺得還是需要"},{"start":11422.907,"end":11445.463,"text":"在制度面上要拿出一個方法所以那有幾個問題想要就教一下就是也讓大家看看這個問題的嚴重度我們知道授權保單它是不是可以視為債務人的財產而變成法院強制執行的標的那主要是這個紛爭的緣起就是110年度12月9號最高法院民事大法庭108年"},{"start":11447.484,"end":11463.005,"text":"就是台抗大治第897號裁定中．他認為執行法院在必要時可以核發執行命令終止債務人為邀保人的人壽保險契約．命第三人保險公司償付解約金"},{"start":11463.826,"end":11481.195,"text":"那這個897才定之後實際上債權人向執行法院申請強制執行的時候那麼這個申請查詢債務對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加我看法務部也有給數字嘛就是司法院給數字112年1月1號到113月就是總共查詢了多少件"},{"start":11487.958,"end":11506.939,"text":"二十三萬件嘛對不對那其實這就是一個很大很大的一個我們講多出來的很大的負擔那不只是說查詢以外和合法扣押命令也有三萬四千六百八十件那合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約有8712件"},{"start":11509.241,"end":11536.179,"text":"那現在就是全國有21家保險公司兩家的總公司是在士林地方法院的轄區其他19家都是在這個臺灣臺北地方法院的轄區內所以因此案件量確實是大增我想問一下我們的司法院秘書長現在對於這個事情目前法院的狀況是如何啊已經變成很沉重的負擔了吧"},{"start":11538.984,"end":11565.758,"text":"所以我們在臺北地院執行處那邊就在4月份就趕快新增7個執行局包括這個司機關7個人、指導員7個人還有司法事務官5個人另外增加委員會人力17人那一些辦公室趕快擴增還有事務機趕快增設這些我們都趕快要應急變成重災區"},{"start":11567.159,"end":11585.939,"text":"其實我跟秘書長剛好講一件事這個其實跟我們之前關切的就是法官過勞還有書記官、檢察官過勞都有相同的類似問題因為雖然說我是非常秘書長你知道我都非常支持今天法官的員額因為案件量實在大增法官員額應該要增加"},{"start":11588.402,"end":11605.195,"text":"但是其實另外一個法官過牢的原因也不純粹是就是人手不足的問題而是近來很多的一些案件整個數量大增跟就像比方說今天這件事情就憑空就突然就多出了"},{"start":11605.655,"end":11620.097,"text":"的非常大的案件員那如果說今天能夠做一些簡化的一些做措施的話或是做一些那個制度上的調整的話你就可以有效的減少很多案件所以不是純粹剛剛下面就講說我們能力增加而已來應對"},{"start":11621.278,"end":11647.945,"text":"更重要的是要去檢視這些案件人員的增加他是怎麼來的那有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理的來減少這個案件的來源或是做什麼分比方說之前我有在質詢的時候講到就是檢察官檢警分工的問題那檢警如果分工做得好的話有些很重複的一些司法程序被節省下來的時候那就可以讓我們司法人員實質上的負擔就減輕嘛這一點我不知道秘書長認不認同"},{"start":11649.827,"end":11655.069,"text":"我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法剛剛委員有問到程序簡化的問題我們目前查詢的案件有23萬件正如委員所說"},{"start":11673.135,"end":11688.881,"text":"那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動"},{"start":11690.041,"end":11691.782,"text":"在全人不能直接向授權公會查詢這些事件"},{"start":11705.469,"end":11707.771,"text":"那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來?"},{"start":11734.895,"end":11759.582,"text":"那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用"},{"start":11760.162,"end":11776.476,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11776.796,"end":11790.809,"text":"他們才會請那個法院依照這個法令的規定來要求查詢其實我剛剛看主席也笑了兩邊聽起來都有道理可是問題是現在你現在增加的東西就是雙方要協調出一個機制"},{"start":11792.751,"end":11815.689,"text":"這是為什麼剛剛講說我們中央兵召委講了一個臨時提案其實只是暫時稍微去緩和問題你光這件事情我覺得兩邊就真的是要協調出一個做法一方面當然是對於所謂法律程序的更嚴謹的保障但另外一方面也有涉及到說今天就是多了23萬件的案件量其實不只是這個東西啦因為我今天都還沒有時間討論到"},{"start":11816.71,"end":11842.521,"text":"我們對於所謂的那個一般的民眾今天這個就是去保險的民眾我們介紹真的是像我們剛剛為什麼講說要限定一個金額那有些那種要保金額那非常低微但是可是你們繼續做這些事情其實對他們騷擾跟所謂的那個干擾是很大的也去破壞了今天保險制度設計的一個重點所以這是我剛剛講的第一個點那我現在回到說我們家那個897的這個部分就是說"},{"start":11845.062,"end":11858.95,"text":"當時法院認為的必要性是在哪裡?什麼叫必要性?他說必要時可以核發命令宗旨"},{"start":11859.827,"end":11879.138,"text":"然後債務為要保人的人受保險契約那這必要性的原則是什麼所以呢法院在審查的時候就會回到強制執行法第一條跟122條去審查當然看似好像是沒有一個具體標準但在實際的我們具體個案其實所謂"},{"start":11883.742,"end":11900.297,"text":"一般的司法事務官就會去審查這保險契約的性質是什麼有沒有覆約那麼要債務人的比如說他的年紀多大有沒有工作能力可不可能再獲得營業收入還有就是他的"},{"start":11901.078,"end":11927.51,"text":"本身還有共同生活的這些家屬他的基本需求是什麼那會去做一個衡量這就是我覺得你就看到這整個財產有多複雜你光一個必要性三個字已經講那麼久了但是我今天回到民眾的身上來看我就受理一些案件啊比方其中一個個案民眾是他是在二三十幾年前為哥哥所開的公司做擔保人"},{"start":11927.93,"end":11942.896,"text":"他哥哥因為經商失敗加上過世所以債務就到這個陳其能身上然後但是最後即便他是還了一些但是因為債務的負擔過大最後當事人被強制執行的保險除了自己的以外"},{"start":11943.536,"end":11944.237,"text":"因為要看它全部的"},{"start":11967.616,"end":11982.945,"text":"我這樣講啦基本上我知道啦基本上你這個所謂的這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是我跟你講你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦不是嗎還有像這種2、30年前的保單他當時就那麼遠見要脫產嗎"},{"start":11994.491,"end":12011.79,"text":"所以這樣子在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚"},{"start":12012.911,"end":12036.011,"text":"執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而且保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件"},{"start":12037.059,"end":12048.472,"text":"那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上 謝謝"},{"start":12051.407,"end":12079.47,"text":"謝謝秘書長等署長也謝謝羅委員事實上也跟羅委員說明一下今天我們有邀請到中華民國人壽保險商業同業工會的金副秘書長他非常賢手私下或許可以委員可以跟他請教為什麼那個執行法院一申請人申請向他們查詢債務人的投保資料有那麼多件謝謝羅委員接下來有請王委員宏威王委員宏威不在好"},{"start":12080.393,"end":12106.342,"text":"那麼所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。那麼委員諮詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員黃珊珊、傅坤祺、翁曉琳所提書面諮詢均列入記錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。現在進行議程所列預算解凍案處理。"},{"start":12107.819,"end":12121.997,"text":"處理前先請議事委員一併宣讀報告事項及討論事項之預算解凍案。宣讀後在主案進行討論。宣讀過程當中與解凍案無關之列席機關代表可先行離席。請宣讀時間大1分鐘。"},{"start":12124.657,"end":12144.151,"text":"報告事項第三案至第七案司法院含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅數第四款第一項決議三、決議四、決議六、決議七十八及決議七十九預算凍結書面報告請查招案等五案。討論事項第一案至第三案"},{"start":12144.811,"end":12157.457,"text":"司法院含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅出第4款第一項決議一、決議二及決議五預算凍結書面報告請查照案等3案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12175.95,"end":12193.799,"text":"好,現在進行處理先處理報告事項第三案至七案有關司法院113年度預算解凍書面報告案既已列入議程報告並經宣讀那作成如下決定報告事項第三至七案均准予被查提報院會請問有異議有來請"},{"start":12199.482,"end":12213.783,"text":"而那個針對有關於現在司法院要解凍的案子從這些書面報告來看司法院該做的很多事情都還沒有做那因此就這樣子的方式與解凍競表不同意"},{"start":12221.931,"end":12241.297,"text":"今天有5個案子它對應的是113年度中央政府總預算裡頭的不同款項換言之又是不同的可能預算內容所以如果有黃國昌委員認為司法院做得不夠好我們是不是進入實質每一個案子哪一個部分您覺得不夠好也讓他們有個機會來說明"},{"start":12242.917,"end":12245.579,"text":"來,黃委員可以啊,我們就來一款一款的討論我們先進行第三案,請看第一頁"},{"start":12270.523,"end":12277.19,"text":"那對於這個內容請委員表示意見司法院的報告"},{"start":12289.312,"end":12296.498,"text":"明細,這裡面有提到他的113年度司法院稅出預算當中有一個電腦資訊作業的軟體資訊軟硬體設備費編列凍結200萬來"},{"start":12311.453,"end":12323.7,"text":"這個凍結案最主要是因為愛台灣他們在所提供的法院造成了無限存續點沒有辦法滿足民眾上面的需求"},{"start":12324.97,"end":12349.726,"text":"就司法院目前所提供的狀態他說他強化通訊品質的機制但問題是他如何強化通訊品質的機制強化完了以後改善前跟改善後差別在哪裡我從這個報告裡面我完全沒有看到上面寫的全部都是形容詞我應該沒有理解錯誤吧"},{"start":12352.794,"end":12355.535,"text":"請秘書長說明委員可以看我們的會議資料目前是底下的頁碼大致的是第4頁跟第5頁"},{"start":12385.062,"end":12407.806,"text":"請說明主席跟各位委員好因為現在最主要就是一般民眾本身普遍都有自己的行動裝置那還有就是國家的預算裡面有投入一些預算就是有帶台灣那現在是之前反映的時候是說有一些民眾收信收不到那收不到的時候我們會加裝就是ADSLADSL就是比較"},{"start":12409.039,"end":12409.699,"text":"司法院執行部長"},{"start":12430.539,"end":12440.987,"text":"這裡之前沒有明確指出到底是哪一個地方因為如果有民眾環境我們才去加裝我們不會說普遍全部加裝因為這樣會浪費很多的很多的那個"},{"start":12442.332,"end":12442.452,"text":"好,來那個委員"},{"start":12471.643,"end":12491.097,"text":"我非常同意要透過討論然後來看哪裡做得不夠好可以來精進那現在是您剛的說明是說現在確實就是我們的就是每個國人盡可能自己的手機都有自己可以用的行動裝置但是這也不完全說我們公務機關的這個系統就可以不夠進步"},{"start":12492.398,"end":12522.398,"text":"﹗"},{"start":12523.319,"end":12551.154,"text":"福原遼闊那這必須是哪裡不夠好然後我才能夠來看說你的這個回應是不是有對接到是不是合理啦好所以拳頭還是要回到說請黃國昌委員您如果方便的話應當在具體來幫司法院一把哪個地方跟您反映哪一個地方的愛台灣不夠好那是哪一個法院或是哪一個檢疫庭那這樣子我們絕對會要求我也覺得這樣合理"},{"start":12551.738,"end":12551.858,"text":"好,謝謝那個羅委員"},{"start":12567.363,"end":12581.51,"text":"第一個就是因為這個預算凍結我也不知道為什麼司法院現在才講說卡錯預算那上一屆為什麼不說明一下你的凍結的那個預算是卡錯地方這第一點"},{"start":12582.421,"end":12604.807,"text":"當然我也認同剛剛那個吳世耀委員講的就是說你到最後討論到最後結果我們今天是討論辛酸嘛就你根本凍結預算是卡錯的項目那第二個可是司法院自己說明都講說愛台灣齁這個一遭詬病連線不穩常常當機齁那也有收訊或連線不穩的情形你自己都講這個狀況的時候那我想請問你那你怎麼解決愛台灣的問題"},{"start":12606.403,"end":12618.842,"text":"施法院怎麼解的案例我覺得剛剛那個我們國倉委員講的也對啊就是說基本上前面凍結先不管是不是卡錯預算啦凍結的原因你並沒有一個"},{"start":12620.575,"end":12645.689,"text":"都是形容詞他講的就是基本上並沒有一個實際量化讓我們看到說你改進的一個狀況那就算有那如果真的有那也很好但你也沒寫進報告裡面那當然這邊我想這個出席委員就會認為說那請問這個預算凍結的狀況原來那個原因好像沒有消失啊我就沒有看到在報告上消失那請問那我們怎麼來去做這個解凍的這件事情呢以上"},{"start":12646.721,"end":12656.906,"text":"那我現在再補充一下因為我本身事實上是用5G的那因為我們要了解這個網路的狀況譬如說我用立法院的因為立法院有申請一個Guest"},{"start":12657.796,"end":12676.891,"text":"那事實上今天我在聯的時候他的速度就很慢那我就開自己的5G所以變成說那會不會因為這樣子所以我們因為現在的如果ADS他的穩定度一定不會有5G高嘛那是不是為了這樣子我們所有的地方全部在復建你是更強的那我覺得這是國家預算的一個問題"},{"start":12678.172,"end":12701.845,"text":"所以我才想說我們是譬如說針對偏遠的地區他可能一定會比較弱那我們就裝A、A、D、S、A那其他的部分確實要反映所以我們接下來就要強化就是說我們有可能就是說看哪一個地方確實民眾反映說有可能收訊不到或者說如果委員有資料直接提供我們馬上馬上做就馬上改善因為這種東西不會是一個普遍的現象"},{"start":12703.237,"end":12720.342,"text":"因為不管是愛台灣或者立法院他這種品質當然不能跟我們現在4G、5G在比可是我們為了這一點東西國家算全部放進去所以之前同仁他們也想說是不是編到1800萬去強化那我那時候說再怎麼貴也不會超過200萬那以上補償"},{"start":12720.742,"end":12742.783,"text":"好 謝謝應該是何處長是不是請秘書長跟處長我們移到前面有麥克風的位置這樣坐著比較好討論因為事實上我們在預算討論的時候大家都是坐著比較能夠充分的發言那麼要發言的部分的主管就上到前面有麥克風這樣面對面比較好談那麼關於這個部分我大概重整一下在場委員的意見"},{"start":12743.604,"end":12770.192,"text":"那麼以及執行機關的看法那由於是上一屆在審議預算的時候做出了一個200萬凍結的目的那目的呢他的照上次的提案原意他是希望能夠改善那目前目前提書面報告說明改善的狀況大概裡面呢也是說強調他的強化資訊品質但是以有限的預算要強化到什麼程度這個也要看給予的預算多寡"},{"start":12770.772,"end":12785.572,"text":"另外他還提到了治安的作為因為他們這裡也提到說當民眾使用Wi-Fi的管理機制才登錄認證之後才能使用無線網路其實網路的方便跟防害是相對應的防火牆越高你越難"},{"start":12787.034,"end":12787.054,"text":"請莊委員"},{"start":12813.195,"end":12829.65,"text":"我來說明一下,我記得不管是在臺北地院或者各法院開庭的時候確實裡面的Wi-Fi那個部分、通訊確實是比較糟糕的地方這幾年也很少去,但是我是不是也這樣子建議國常委員"},{"start":12830.931,"end":12847.87,"text":"我們是叫他們來改善,然後來給那個解凍。那現在似乎啊,我們司法院這個地方也搞不清楚,有哪些地方也要去改善。因為全面性的,確實現在大家的一般民眾啊,大家都有手機啦,大家都有手機啦。那要怎麼樣做更普遍?"},{"start":12851.654,"end":12874.427,"text":"那確實是這個都要砸進去預算是不是這樣如果是預算給你們我會建議那個在黨的好朋友給他們支持但是這個部分確實也要去你們自己內部也要去你們必須要清楚各個法院都有你們自己的同事哪些地方搜尋是比較糟的反而是我們一直在講說要建立一個比較"},{"start":12875.247,"end":12883.334,"text":"第一個這個是上一屆國會所提出的凍結案那上一屆國會提出這個凍結案參與的人或許都不在了但這並不構成新的國會隨隨便便混過去就可以了這是第一點"},{"start":12905.387,"end":12930.632,"text":"第二個司法院對於上一屆國會所提出的這個凍結案如果不合理的話上一屆國會怎麼不說明都已經做成了決議了嘛做成了決議新的國會接續把關本來就是我們的職責啊不是嗎第三個說得更莫名其妙啊說哪裡不好我還要去幫你測喔哪裡不好我還要去幫你測喔"},{"start":12932.902,"end":12960.909,"text":"預算是在你手上還是在我手上?權利是在你手上還是在我手上?我沒有辦法接受的事情是什麼?司法院把立法院、司法法制委員會當成橡皮圖章欸大家看一下書面報告是怎麼寫的看一下書面報告強化通訊品質機制於民間下工區域繼續提供足夠的無限存取點數量以提供較佳的通訊品質"},{"start":12963.497,"end":12980.02,"text":"這是在寫什麼作文啊你之前之後你在什麼地方多放了幾個點連基本的數據都沒有啊啊你寫了形容詞了以後我們看完這些形容詞就要放行喔對不起我無法同意啊"},{"start":12981.55,"end":12986.451,"text":"委員會來綜合的來做一個判斷好不好那接下來我們看下一個第4案第4案就是有關於"},{"start":13009.534,"end":13032.274,"text":"他的審判行政下辦理刑事審判行政編列5887萬9千元凍結150萬元那麼提出書面報告使得凍結那提案委員大概包括劉建國委員林淑芬委員吳其林委員等都還在我們在位置上就可以回應了那請問這個案子委員看法如何"},{"start":13036.672,"end":13051.909,"text":"當初,司法院在推動國民法官的制度,多了多少錢在做宣傳,我相信秘書長很清楚,整個國民法官的制度,光宣傳的費用就上億了,過去這幾年,每一年加起來,"},{"start":13052.91,"end":13075.258,"text":"以現行實施的制度上面當國民法官的制度提案凍結的內容是檢審雙方、檢辯雙方他所造成實際上面在訴訟上面的攻防出現了明顯不對等的對待的時候這個攸關了整個審判的公正性這個也攸關了被告刑事人權的保障"},{"start":13076.598,"end":13092.552,"text":"這個提案的意思非常的好但你們目前所提出來的資料對於現實上面所存在的簡便雙方實力不對等的狀態實質上面的武器是不是平等你們提出來的報告根本沒有辦法解決這個問題"},{"start":13094.465,"end":13118.528,"text":"那今天我們如果就這樣子給解凍了是不是代表司法院對現在第一線國民法官制度實務上面所操作出現的問題都已經解決了呢我不認為已經解決啦所以我反對好 那麼請司法院秘書長檢要說明因為我們案子還有好幾案來請好 那個行事"},{"start":13120.834,"end":13143.323,"text":"報告委員,對於這個減變的資源不對等,畢竟這個法律才剛施行,那的確在一些制度上可能有一些措施可能沒有辦法說馬上吸引到說比較好的律師來參與這樣的國民法官的案件,所以我們的確有制定一些計畫,包含短期、中期跟長期的。"},{"start":13143.903,"end":13165.209,"text":"那就長期來講當然主要還是要由律師來參與這樣一個辯護才比較合整個訴訟的體制但是就短期來講因為畢竟律師他們會有市場的效應的問題啦畢竟國民法官的案件來講他的一個收益並會排擠掉律師的其他的收益所以就短期來講律師是不太可能也不太願意來參與"},{"start":13166.549,"end":13190.11,"text":"這份我們當然是配合法服請法服成立專職律師這樣的一個制度來吸引說比較有能力的律師來參與但是就短期來講如果說律師這一方面沒辦法配合的時候我們可能還是必須透過法院自己內部的約聘的編務人來做這樣的一個國民法官業務的執行"},{"start":13191.391,"end":13210.401,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13210.441,"end":13210.541,"text":"謝謝我們是"},{"start":13238.899,"end":13254.673,"text":"處長、聽長我這樣子說明一下這邊跟委員說明因為報告事項第3案到第7案它事實上是一個報告事項任何的一個案子委員會有意見我們就全部的報告事項做一個處理所以剛剛因為第3案已經有不同意見了嘛"},{"start":13255.293,"end":13277.666,"text":"那後面不管有沒有意見其實我們是全部的報告事項要做整批的處理所以呢因為有委員對3至7案有提出意見那麼報告事項預算解凍書面報告案做如下決定那麼軍令定期繼續處理我想因為它一共5個案嘛那我們是整個處理的"},{"start":13279.674,"end":13305.458,"text":"還是黃委員你有針對哪一個案子?就是剛剛這兩個案子我剛剛譜齁我只要譜兩句話啦剛剛主席宣告另定其處理嘛這個結論我可以接受但我要鄭重告訴司法院的是你剛剛所說的制度剛上路難免有一些不足的地方當你在講這句話的時候我希望你冷靜的想一想"},{"start":13307.811,"end":13331.831,"text":"當初國民法官制度在上路的時候社會各界的呼籲是什麼沒有準備好就上路沒有準備好就上路你是拿初期的訴訟當事人的權益在開玩笑嗎可以這樣做嗎司法的攤評可以這樣操作嗎當初司法院不是信誓旦旦準備好了"},{"start":13333.888,"end":13342.556,"text":"只要等到開始出現問題的時候不好意思喔,我在發言不好意思喔,司法院秘書長,我在發言我要請教您意見嗎?我剛剛有說錯嗎?"},{"start":13351.991,"end":13369.162,"text":"那不就是你坐在旁邊的廳長講出來的話嗎?你剛剛提到的就是說我們輸了對不起我還在發言可以請你不要插嘴嗎?黃委員那個因為你問問號的時候對方會以為你要問他所以當你的語句是問句的時候對方就覺得他是不是要回答啦"},{"start":13369.462,"end":13370.403,"text":"這是我剛剛為什麼說你們在國會的殿堂裡面說制度剛上路嘛"},{"start":13399.113,"end":13417.189,"text":"中間的準備難免有不足嗎?訴訟當事人的權益不是用這種態度在面對的這是我的立場司法院如果有不一樣的看法提出來沒有關係大家討論看人民的感受是什麼這就是我的意見所以我反對"},{"start":13419.011,"end":13443.725,"text":"那個黃委員對第三案跟第四案都有意義啦那其實主席這邊也跟大家做說明其實第11頁的資料裡面關於國民法官法的法輔律師的酬金部分在這個會期也詢問過事實上司法院也提高到7萬5那仍有不足的部分可能在後續年度的預算編列上請司法院可以尋求繼續加強那那個吳世耀委員請"},{"start":13444.751,"end":13469.589,"text":"現在主席,剛剛主席已經裁示令定期處理但是我想就程序跟就實質我還是要發言一下做成記錄第一個就是說我們以往這個是上一屆國會在處理213年度所做的決議那通常在審預算大概分兩類解凍的案子分兩類第一類就是書面報告就得凍值對不對第二類才是書面報告"},{"start":13473.892,"end":13481.377,"text":"所以在那個程序上是不一樣的那我們在立法院的經驗都很久那前面這3、4、5、6、7這5個案子是屬於書面報告就得凍結所以就程序上是這樣這個我要再釐清一下當然我們剛剛也花了時間討論"},{"start":13490.683,"end":13509.359,"text":"那在討論事項當然就是另外的議題這是程序這是程序每一個委員會都是這樣子那第二個呢就是我可能要清楚說明一下不是對於預算的執行提出意見的委員才叫做認認真真在監督我們今天也是坐在這裡看預算"},{"start":13510.273,"end":13537.387,"text":"就事論事的討論所以沒有人是隨隨便便好剛華國昌委員說隨隨便便混過去誰沒有人要隨隨便便混過去請收回您的話您說新國會要持續把關OK我們就在持續把關所以沒有人不持續把關也請收回您的話然後呢您說司法院提供的報告在您看來都是形容詞"},{"start":13539.008,"end":13561.353,"text":"那就我的觀點就以現在的這個案子來講如何針對中央政府總預算案的第四款第一項所做成的第四項決議如何讓這個國民法官法上路之後的簡便雙方他的不均衡不對等的狀況可以解除好那司法院現在有幾個solution"},{"start":13562.193,"end":13588.319,"text":"第一個就是要穩定提供被告刑事辯護的援助的辯護來源這是第一個做法第二個做法也要去提高基金會法服這個法服基金會律師承接國民法官案件的意願這是第二個做法第三個做法當然這個做法裡頭還有我們一直在要求的要去提升他的那個payment對不對第三個是有關我們要如何"},{"start":13589.88,"end":13607.18,"text":"來讓他做得更好就是提高義務辯護律師承接國民法官的案件力那個意願這個是第三個approach第四個approach就是後續我們真的要努力去增設含約聘辯護人的這個政策如何改善"},{"start":13607.85,"end":13609.812,"text":"這是他們努力在書面報告裡頭來答覆立法院的關切。"},{"start":13631.832,"end":13658.704,"text":"所以我認為他們是有在認真在回覆這個意見滿不滿意是委員個人的見解但是請不要把誣蔑了其他的立委沒有認真在審預算也不要誣蔑了司法院的院方好像人家都在失位速餐失位速餐的人應當是每次開會簽到就走的那種人不表決不開會的那種人才叫做薪水小偷所以我是要替司法院講講話"},{"start":13659.764,"end":13660.045,"text":"請把程序搞清楚再來謝謝"},{"start":13676.715,"end":13702.754,"text":"好 那麼剛剛已經宣告第三案跟第四案均另定期繼續處理 來 那個 羅委員我也贊成主席說另定期來處理但是我覺得還是要稍微說明一下因為其實剛剛黃國昌跟我這邊談到我們其實針對他的那個第三案第三案我必須說啦 真的那個報告內容是太過粗略啦"},{"start":13703.727,"end":13730.458,"text":"實際上也有點文不對題那剛剛講說充滿形容詞不夠具體其實主要講的是第三案那第四案我是沒有表示意見但是第四案到底這個做得好不好這本來就是我們立法委員可以來去一起來討論的地方所以我覺得問題就是很簡單那只是有一個關鍵點說我也提醒一下司法院剛剛吳世耀委員說得很好嘛就是有書面報告就得凍資"},{"start":13732.399,"end":13748.7,"text":"程序啦但是司法院也不能用這樣的一個標準來自我看待啊那說真的那當初我們的前一屆的國會那最後做出這個所謂的凍結的這個決定那你只要打個書面報告書面報告就是說"},{"start":13749.977,"end":13772.327,"text":"我以為可以打三個字請解凍那是不是也是書面報告不是這麼一回事嘛我要講第一個第三案其實差不多啦很空洞嘛那第四案當然他有講很多具體的數字或具體的改進作用這我承認啦所以因此我第四案我也沒表示意見嘛但至少第三案的部分我不認為說對他說是他太過抽象"},{"start":13773.407,"end":13798.459,"text":"這報告沒有針對當時解凍的原因來做具體實質的一個說明這一點我倒是覺得我認同黃國昌講的啊所以因此當然這個都是總而言之主席已經做了說令時來處理的話這一點我覺得我接受了所以以上好謝謝來莊委員那我請教一下你剛剛做的裁決我尊重但是那個裁決的內容是你裁示的是所有的案子"},{"start":13799.927,"end":13822.332,"text":"第三、第三、好啦其他的因為我們上一屆的做成的一個決議是向司法法制委員會提出書面報告這是決議的一個精神但是個別的委員要求我們司法院把事情做得更好這個其實本來應該你們的職責啦那報告事項部分還有沒有其他意見好那如果沒有的話我們就進行討論事項那個第567案"},{"start":13830.071,"end":13849.492,"text":"是不是有異議?如果沒有的話,我們就遵御被查。來,來,那個,黃委員你有意見,第幾案我們就把他...現在我們是進入到43頁嗎?欸,我看,對,第5案剛剛你不是3到7案都已經做決議了嗎?沒有沒有,3、4案而已,那5、6、7齁"},{"start":13851.755,"end":13852.175,"text":"所以是第43頁嗎?"},{"start":13876.158,"end":13903.521,"text":"那43頁基本上面的核心是我們目前裁判書的系統他的缺洞非常的多常常查判決都查不到我今天在質詢的時候我也公開點出來了這個問題目前司法院或許說他們想要改善但是以實際上面運作狀況而言問題還是非常的多你們今天提這個解凍報告我今天質詢的時候我隨便就找一個例子就告訴你們"},{"start":13905.148,"end":13907.389,"text":"我們現在是進行討論事項那處理的是第一案討論上第一案43頁那請問那麼機關代表有沒有要說明請"},{"start":13934.329,"end":13963.488,"text":"那簡單說明一下因為資訊處是建置那個系統所謂系統就是說剛才因為黃委那個我有去查過他會標注一個有一個黑色的標誌那個標誌的時候說明的狀況就是說第一個他可能是還沒有審結或者不應該公開那另外一個就是說應該上傳沒上傳那這一件剛才黃委員講的沒有錯因為他已經到最高了嘛那最高的時候高等法院的那個東西應該要截掉了"},{"start":13964.769,"end":13981.161,"text":"這不然沒有道理嘛不然為什麼不然最高怎麼去去下裁定所以當初我一看的時候我們就馬上拍下來那一看的時候第一個那個案件應該結掉了這已經結掉那結掉那個不是系統上的缺失那個是因為"},{"start":13982.222,"end":14000.534,"text":"就是書記官或者其他一些單位他應該上傳沒有上傳可是沒有上傳的時候所有的資訊預算就卡在資訊系統所以當初就變成是一個比較怪異的現象就是行政上有人沒有做好譬如說如果有沒有做好可是資訊就是資訊沒有問題他就凍結資訊預算所以以上補充"},{"start":14004.616,"end":14005.256,"text":"主席宣告"},{"start":14033.494,"end":14049.751,"text":"討論事項第一案令定期繼續處理第二案至第三案准予動之體會院、情報院會好議程所列事項均已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在上會謝謝大家"},{"start":14067.619,"end":14068.845,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15897","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d5da7963983a35b0dca3bf586b49d470b3be8d109af184be4b6d16e333df53b275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續審查：一、行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。(5月8日下午及5月9日為一次會)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T08:31:04+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:05:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":9236,"委員發言時間":"08:31:04 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我想這個大家意見都表達很清楚我們這邊到今天好 那給省市長講我待會這邊要做收斂我跟委員報告"},{"start":2538.906,"end":2560.344,"text":"一個人犯了錯,他責任有好幾種,陸海空軍刑法處理的是他的刑事責任,這邊處理的是行政責任,有一點點不一樣,跟委員報告,一個酒駕的人他會被法辦,吸毒被法辦,但是同樣的他也會被,因為刑事責任跟,就是有一點,"},{"start":2566.645,"end":2572.891,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件"},{"start":2591.447,"end":2591.728,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2606.781,"end":2629.149,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具這個章、這一章我們就保留那我也希望國防部因為這個其實是整個體系裡面的一塊拼圖很重要那司法院跟這個法務部跟國防部這邊是不是再多溝通因為這保留的可能最後會到黨團協商那邊那這挖了這一塊起來到底有什麼影響"},{"start":2630.309,"end":2642.643,"text":"可能你們要有一個比較清楚的說明我覺得這個是可以講道理的我們這一塊我們第18、19我們就保留接下來處理到第二來法官請說"},{"start":2645.586,"end":2669.962,"text":"就是那個主席這邊那個還有馬委員真的意見就是馬委這邊意見是認為說未來懲戒法院在適用懲戒種類的時候其他都可以都都可以選擇那至於剝奪跟那個減少退出給予這一塊就不定在那個懲罰法這邊而是定在工程法是這個意思嗎就是您的意思是說就是"},{"start":2671.761,"end":2675.964,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":2696.307,"end":2701.73,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2717.679,"end":2738.051,"text":"除了剛才馬文軍委員所講的之外另外就是那個撤職撤職也是一個非常重的一個懲罰所以這個部分我們都沒有一個標準可能你們不知道你們的關懷太大不知道酒駕可以到撤職"},{"start":2740.442,"end":2749.651,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 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«軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2759.383,"end":2787.331,"text":"我們把他先拿掉剩下來讓他過因為我們現在焦點在那裡嘛因為我們討論花那麼久的時間你再看一下那個文字就是說司法院是不是的意思就是說因為未來還是有糾纏的懲戒我們不知道會罰到誰啦就是說那些樣態都留著但是要剝奪退休金這比較重的事情將來是放到懲戒法裡面或者另外來處理我們把這一句先拿下來這一句拿下來當作保留但是其他的我們就照原條文通過這樣可不可以"},{"start":2790.242,"end":2814.688,"text":"撤職要留,犯了大錯當然會撤職,你不能撤職的話他要留在那裡。不是長官,是懲戒法院。我們現在講的是懲戒法院這一塊,就是把剝奪退休給予這一塊先拿掉,其餘的保留。我們可不可以做這個結論,大家看一下,然後我們接下來再處理19條好不好。"},{"start":2817.002,"end":2839.654,"text":"這個部分司法院這邊還是認為說這個剝奪跟減少退出給予這部分能夠讓懲戒法院來選擇而且這個部分是定在懲罰法這邊但是如果說國防部或者說是各位委員希望能夠讓法案能夠順利通過或者說有怎麼樣的審議的話其實本院還是就是尊重大大院的審議"},{"start":2840.575,"end":2842.497,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2858.795,"end":2860.196,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2880.726,"end":2884.689,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2905.223,"end":2907.085,"text":"他應該是一個管理辦法管理措施了我要看單位"},{"start":2928.413,"end":2936.008,"text":"因為既然在討論了外申訴其實可能對你說他是一個處罰的方式管理措施"},{"start":2937.423,"end":2938.384,"text":"事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2960.416,"end":2976.222,"text":"外散數的取消一般是我面臨到重大演訓或是說官兵戰備的時候我可能是全部的單位我就這一個禮拜我們取消外散數或是說我的體能不合格然後我必須要加強訓練我可能就是說外散數可能暫停他不是處罰"},{"start":2977.522,"end":2979.223,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3004.175,"end":3019.19,"text":"馬委員這樣好不好因為外散數並沒有在我們這個篇章裡面因為它就是一個部隊的管理這個管理因為在我們的外散數管理辦法跟作業相關規範裡面這是我們自己的相關規範它在第4點"},{"start":3023.38,"end":3049.107,"text":"違反以下事項者取消外散訴,須經主觀考核後重新審核令事情節按國軍軍風紀維護實施規定,陸海空軍懲罰法嚴懲。」所以你已經把它放在以外散訴為由,代乎職守,影響任務遂行,或者外散訴期間從事不當休閒活動如飆車、涉足不良場所等等,造成營外"},{"start":3049.767,"end":3053.189,"text":"軍風紀事件。第三、漁食反營。第四、眷屬、眷籍、地異動、引力、未主動向單位報告或謊報、偵查或屬實。因為在你的管理辦法跟作業規範裡面其實你已經把它跟我們的陸海空軍懲罰法是掛在一起而且那些樣態其實你也把它明列出來所以我們只是說你在修"},{"start":3077.704,"end":3090.918,"text":"對,不是,你在修的時候你沒有把外申訴的那個考量進去,它是屬於檢訴或禁足的部分,是有沒有?你是說要把它納進去嗎?對,你是不是要納進去?"},{"start":3092.654,"end":3095.535,"text":"處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3124.196,"end":3125.177,"text":"處理法草案案件事項案件。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":3141.877,"end":3142.238,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案"},{"start":3157.495,"end":3159.478,"text":"審查：一、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3172.759,"end":3186.262,"text":"另外就是我再補充一下就是說你如果沒有把外申訴放進去那你用了懲罰法裡面的任何一個又罰他然後又把外申訴這個又不列在裡面等於說你又取消他的外申訴可能你又做了其他的懲罰的手段這樣也可能是一個如果他這個處罰方式乾脆就給他法源否則他以後就只能說我這樣被暫時暫停外申訴"},{"start":3200.045,"end":3206.93,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":3229.651,"end":3231.172,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案案案案。二、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3263.772,"end":3272.518,"text":"好,這樣好不好,我們時間沒辦法這樣等。好,不是,那我們剛剛27條,其實26、27跟18、19是有關聯的啦。26、27、28。26、27、28。對,他有罰薪嘛,一直到25、26、27、28其實都有跟那個罰薪扣除、月支給、待遇,這個都相關。"},{"start":3288.075,"end":3291.836,"text":"對照徐巧芯委員版第19條,請提案人說明。對,那個26...好,你說什麼?什麼東西啊?"},{"start":3317.202,"end":3322.026,"text":"二、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3336.148,"end":3351.043,"text":"二十七條的部分的話我是對法新有意見因為在當時軍人選擇以保家維國為職業的時候我們應該要帶頭表示尊重他們對國家社會的奉獻"},{"start":3351.904,"end":3381.181,"text":"那欣賞為軍人付出時間跟勞動力應該得到合理的報酬。勞基法雖然我們不是適用勞基法但是26條規範是不得預扣工資作為違約金或賠償之用那所以請大家多思考因為從軍雖然我們不是勞基法但是其實就像你我在職業上一樣是一個選項所以我會希望將勞權的精神與你納入所以我們在21條裡面我的版本裡面是用"},{"start":3381.681,"end":3408.918,"text":"法新懲罰的種類刪除,那用這個罰款的方式來做一個方法,那他還是有一個財產懲罰的種類,所以將法新改成罰款。那違紀人員受罰的時候,如果已經不是現役人員的話,那也是可以用罰款的行政手段來追溯,實務在執行上面也會比較有彈性,謝謝。好,徐委員說明,那個法律司,"},{"start":3410.7,"end":3421.775,"text":"謝謝召委謝謝徐委員徐委員剛剛講的我們都理解我也跟徐委員報告就因為罰薪像公務員也有減俸那罰薪是我們已經行之非常非常多年"},{"start":3422.386,"end":3427.01,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3451.169,"end":3463.785,"text":"我其實是可以討論的在這邊並不是採一個非常強硬的立場但我想要詢問就是說罰薪的部分跟我們使用罰款您覺得最大的差異是會在哪裡"},{"start":3465.831,"end":3467.131,"text":"刑事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":3487.518,"end":3511.599,"text":"精神上我是贊成徐巧芯委員的說法就是說我處罰你他其實都在罰錢那不要叫罰薪但是我剛才聽到陳思維事長提的就是說在軍公教這個體制裡面罰縫、罰薪他是一個這個體系裡面的制度啦而且刑制多年不是只有軍人有那"},{"start":3512.72,"end":3516.964,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3539.002,"end":3563.906,"text":"這個勞基法不能連在一起因為連在一起會有很多問題的是啦但是它就是一個程序爭議的問題那我想我在這裡做一個表達好那就是說我想可以支持院版的做法但是我還是要表達說我們雖然今天是軍人但是我們今天在立定這個懲罰法的時候還是希望吧不是要適用勞基法但是希望能夠把勞權的思維能夠帶進來"},{"start":3567.427,"end":3570.31,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3594.22,"end":3609.854,"text":"二十八條現在他就是罰款跟人事或紀律懲罰都可並為懲罰那會不會有一罪二法的事情就是說你可能被罰這樣五小時可能是要被罰五千這樣會不會來那個沈市長說明"},{"start":3613.417,"end":3632.037,"text":"謝謝委員我跟委員報告這一次我們會把這個反向定進來就是因為我們這次的懲罰是有原先陸海空軍懲罰法他以前是針對一個行為做一個處罰我遲到十次我就處罰十次那我們現在這個是用一個概念性的就是一次性的去叫做"},{"start":3633.697,"end":3658.504,"text":"維持行為一體性用一體性的概念去懲罰所以我們才會列這個那如果委員擔心說這個因為有的時候他行為可能很多所以說你可能給他禁足兩個禮拜然後可能給他罰款可能罰款2000元這是一個選擇那委員如果您比較擔心說第二項你如果擔心的話這個拿來我們也尊重對 因為你說10次嘛假設我前面已經10次被你罰站了"},{"start":3662.556,"end":3690.791,"text":"得與人事或紀律懲罰並好。」那你現在要怎麼修?就刪掉那一段啊。就把那一句話拿掉嘛。對啊。我也,呃,我,呃,教委,我這邊也同意馬委員的想法,因為,這個也跟我前面的有關,就是說我前面也已經同意了這個,院版的說法嘛,就是,呃,留下了那個罰刑,那在罰款的部分,在他們院版28條。來,我來出一條文,就是說,第28條我們就把後項,把它整個拿掉嘛。"},{"start":3692.892,"end":3696.515,"text":"法款得與人事或紀律懲罰並為懲罰。」二、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3712.573,"end":3739.853,"text":"違過的部分剛才幾位委員還沒有到我剛才一開始有提就是說有關違過這件事情我昨天聽起來這沒有政黨之間不同的立場反而是兩種思維的競合那本席比較傾向我們委員會還是負責任的對這個事情要做出態度就是說這個如果是黨跟黨之間不同那我贊成是保留送去黨團協商但是違過就介於是不是它是一個維持紀律的工具"},{"start":3740.874,"end":3744.675,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":3763.479,"end":3765.2,"text":"處理法草案案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3778.336,"end":3779.978,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案 案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3797.381,"end":3822.387,"text":"檢訴懲罰出定於民國19年。現在已經過了這麼多年,我們軍人還是用百年前的管教方式,那我覺得思慮未爭周延。除了限制行動自由之外,也沒有實質的教育意義,也沒有對於同袍有警惕的重用。我們可以看到的是在這個要罰就罰痛點,那你這個所謂的"},{"start":3823.507,"end":3838.096,"text":"罰占、禁足、減速都是在浪費時間、浪費生命。還不如你用罰勤的方式競價回撲對止勤勤務還比較有意義。這是24、25的部分我都覺得說就是都是民國19年所訂定的那我們現在到底禁足跟減速還需不需要那我個人認為說應該要做一個改變所以提案刪除"},{"start":3852.166,"end":3852.849,"text":"來那個法律師說明麥克風要開"},{"start":3858.406,"end":3886.609,"text":"非常謝謝委員那減速跟禁足確實還有罰站他確實是已經施行很久了那但是他對現在部隊來講他是一個非常有效的一個管理的方式簡單講減速就是軍事官的禁足禁足就是針對士兵那尤其士兵他們都他是同一件事情只是對軍事官叫減速那對兵叫做禁足那我們以去年來講抱歉你漏了一個33還有一個罰站"},{"start":3888.536,"end":3891.558,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具法草案案。"},{"start":3909.427,"end":3932.576,"text":"禁足案件有1,200多件,罰站案件也有172件。」就是說他是給基層部隊因為各種各樣的那種違紀的行為有的時候你給他禁足一個禮拜或是給他減速一週那可以達到懲罰的效果因為我們把這種這個拿掉了以後我們怕說對基層部隊長來講有的時候他就可能一律用罰款"},{"start":3933.336,"end":3934.958,"text":"處理法草案案件的效果與保留,對國軍有實益及實用。"},{"start":3942.281,"end":3945.543,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、"},{"start":3968.18,"end":3988.732,"text":"其實還蠻多的齁就是中階層的軍官拿這幾項來作為是有一點用霸凌的方式來欺負基層官兵的方式所以如果今天我們的國防部能夠在這件事情上面處理完善那我不需要去反對院版去刪除"},{"start":3989.733,"end":4002.286,"text":"但是如果今天我們定了這三項好,我們還是維持這三項但是呢,類似這樣子軍中霸凌的事件沒有減少那我還是會堅持那直接刪除啊"},{"start":4004.109,"end":4023.795,"text":"這兩件事情第一個是一個管理的工具因為這是在部隊管理我想我以前當兵的時候禁足對我最有效就是禁足或管束或罰陣它是一個管理工具針對違法亂紀的一個處置的方式那"},{"start":4025.273,"end":4035.945,"text":"有沒有濫用或者拿來霸凌其實我們在救濟的辦法還有我們待會要修的第二套法第二套權益法上我們其實可以強化那一塊就是說"},{"start":4037.377,"end":4063.713,"text":"我們擔心菜刀會拿來亂殺人但我們不是廢掉菜刀而是我們約束他怎麼使用所以我又留有那個26條法規所以我是不是建議這樣溝通一下就是說不能每項都罰錢因為兵不是每個都去罰錢對有些人是有負擔這是一個工具的選擇在基層的部隊長官一個排長一個班長在管兵的時候他有一些選擇我們要避免他濫用我是不是建議我們同仁"},{"start":4068.181,"end":4073.694,"text":"這33133尊重院版,那我們在他避免濫用的部分強化這一個救濟措施。來,馬委員。"},{"start":4076.499,"end":4078.66,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4102.236,"end":4104.739,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4123.278,"end":4142.79,"text":"修假日你讓他不能回去嘛,可是其他人都還在執勤,因為我會有感受到是因為假日大家都回去了,我必須要留守,我做別人的工作,可是你今天如果說像雷達的這樣子的單位,那他沒有,他本來可以排休,假設排8天,那我被"},{"start":4145.452,"end":4151.818,"text":"被罰減訴的部分,結果大家都在工作,他就在裡面,不曉得幹嘛,就是這樣而已啊。所以我的意思是說,是不是就這個辦法,你怎麼看非奉權責長官核准不得外出營區,因為他實施的還有時間性啊。就我剛剛講的外申訴的那個部分,其實你通通把它考量進來,其實它是相關的。"},{"start":4174.038,"end":4179.823,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、行政院函請審查：一、"},{"start":4199.5,"end":4202.482,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4224.135,"end":4227.317,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4250.748,"end":4252.978,"text":"處理法草案案件事件處理法案件事件處理法案件事件處理法案件"},{"start":4256.319,"end":4258.121,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4285.919,"end":4290.344,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案件、軍人權益事件處理法草案案件、軍人權益事件處理法草案案件、軍人權益事件處理法草案案件"},{"start":4308.743,"end":4315.385,"text":"那如果說有特殊情形經部隊長官同意因為其實你沒有這句他長官其實應該都還是在很重要的狀況所以我現在只是說那可以悔過那邊也加上這一句啊然後你其他的為什麼禁足跟檢護我是覺得悔過那邊加上這一句是OK啦對 但是因為你那邊沒有那一句這邊有這一句"},{"start":4331.462,"end":4350.129,"text":"我跟委員報告他原則上悔過的話他就是有一個那個悔過的相關的一個辦法我們現在也沒有說悔過進去如果說要讓他提前出來的話不是因為你現在是整佈法你現在整佈法你就是你是連貫下來的那我現在不知道說為什麼你是悔過沒有73條有寫73條有寫嗎我看一下73"},{"start":4357.219,"end":4359.241,"text":"那個毀過減速禁足期發展期間不予補救。"},{"start":4377.68,"end":4379.522,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4396.193,"end":4397.234,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4414.028,"end":4431.594,"text":"有的時候長官會叫他要出去買點東西替部隊服務所以他的用意其實不一定是家裡面發生什麼重大的事故下一次換那個長官所以我才建議時間刪除就是我們得到從國防部"},{"start":4434.455,"end":4436.417,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":4448.527,"end":4465.895,"text":"對,那我得到的訊息是這樣,我可不可以再確認一次。為公出公差跟為個人不一樣喔?抱歉,他們一定都是說我出公差,沒有人長光會跟你說,我是這樣就是怎麼樣,一定都是叫你出去做什麼事幹嘛。"},{"start":4466.755,"end":4478.959,"text":"所以我先確認,對不起我先確認,因為我們從國防部這邊詢問得到的訊息是這樣,我想這邊跟國防部確認是不是這樣的意思。那個回答非常不適當啦。你們的人來跟我們這樣講喔。"},{"start":4483.4,"end":4485.263,"text":"修正草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":4498.406,"end":4513.185,"text":"草委、各位委員、還有今天在座的各位部會同仁,我要講一下今天裡面所有講的是以陸軍的思想為主導,在講營區。我現在舉例來講,如果你在一個基隆級的軍艦上面,你怎麼減速?"},{"start":4514.622,"end":4520.764,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。七、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。八、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4543.325,"end":4547.51,"text":"那我們再講你依法適用那海軍怎麼用?這裏面完全沒談到"},{"start":4548.973,"end":4556.156,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":4577.626,"end":4580.308,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4597.759,"end":4625.128,"text":"在二、三十年前我們危機在船上關毛鏈艙那次是酷刑啊那對官兵來講是磨練啊但是呢如果你拉了備戰緊急狀況下你所有的人都要救部位你說關緊閉的人他要不要出來他還是要出來啊他還是不能停止所以有些東西你要給一個部隊長一個彈性讓他來詮釋這個給各位做一個參考好那個陳委員提的好像33條的罰站對"},{"start":4627.509,"end":4632.534,"text":"處理法條文修正草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4644.172,"end":4647.453,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4668.3,"end":4670.065,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4675.862,"end":4699.839,"text":"海軍還分艦艇跟岸基的我們空軍有分空勤、陸勤的防砲什麼都不一樣是不是我們把33133這個紀律維持的處罰工具還是要有但是你寫得太空泛變成空白授權我們擔心會被濫用所以我們變成是這個條文我們今天沒有要通過啦我意思說請國防部整理一下它變成一個授權授權要連結到請各軍種"},{"start":4702.361,"end":4720.336,"text":"要提出你們針對這個條文的處理的方式跟樣態也符合剛才鄭天才委員講的要把它明定出來這樣會不會比較好一點因為剛才鄭官委員提醒這個倒是像我空軍的我就沒有想到海軍的狀況這個其實軍種不一樣那個國防部有沒有什麼"},{"start":4724.065,"end":4745.46,"text":"我想我是國防部的副部長這個我跟陳委員一樣我們都從基層當到今天這個職務當過排長、連長、營長這個剛才我們對這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面有關這個罰站、減速、禁足我必須要跟所有委員做一個非常明確的一個說明它是一個懲罰種類的一個選擇"},{"start":4749.155,"end":4772.668,"text":"這個整個國軍當中地面部隊畢竟屬於多數可能除了海軍以外包含空軍包含空軍海軍陸戰隊陸軍、憲兵、後備絕大多數都是以地面部隊來為主的那對於這個整個一個罰站這個減速跟禁足在執行這個處分的時候"},{"start":4774.514,"end":4777.576,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4801.676,"end":4819.138,"text":"如果說你把這個我們跟日常生活限制的這個有關的處分給拿掉之後,我們如果給士兵,你犯錯就記過一次,我也不要處分,我也不要禁足你了。你要知道如果要記過以後,他年度的考試他不能打夾等,他不能留營,他不能續服現役,"},{"start":4820.933,"end":4841.32,"text":"他不能改成我們這個常備役啊,這對他整個軍人生涯當中會造成更嚴重的影響,那以後每個部隊當中你就申請一次好了,今天犯錯就申請一次,我就可以讓你就緝吧,是不是?你會在部隊裡面造成多少的這個問題?可是如果說這個兵犯錯了,今天這個小兵調皮搗蛋犯錯,哎,張瞻,你去那邊罰站兩個小時。"},{"start":4844.366,"end":4850.288,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":4866.835,"end":4868.337,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4882.173,"end":4883.115,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4898.437,"end":4899.778,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4924.335,"end":4924.796,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4932.318,"end":4940.24,"text":"全責長官的核准你就可以出去你出去的理由提出來的又這麼奇怪那你乾脆就不要放這一句因為你應該怎麼樣就怎麼樣你在減訴或禁足或者甚至在罰站期間他該罰就罰如果有什麼特殊的狀況你本來就可以一個長官不能做這樣的決定不可以承擔這樣子的責任嗎這個要寫在這上面嗎所以我想這樣子是比較明確的接下來換徐巧芯委員"},{"start":4961.884,"end":4978.689,"text":"同意我相信第一件事情要聲明的是雖然剛才兩位有說抱歉等等的但我相信當時國防部來跟我們洪聖翰委員做說明的時候他一定是有建立在一定的事實基礎上面這件事情是大家不容許否認的"},{"start":4979.409,"end":5001.262,"text":"所以我們在做這幾條的時候確實就應該要把這種其實還蠻常見的情況或許你們不常碰到但基層常碰到的情況考慮進去我講第二個我以33條為例法戰以例證行之其時間以兩小時為限聽起來很合理對不對那如果是凌晨呢我就遇過"},{"start":5002.523,"end":5016.836,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草"},{"start":5029.947,"end":5037.217,"text":"我們要懲罰對方,但是有什麼事情是長官也不能做的,也應該要一律驗進去呢?謝謝。我覺得這裡面有三件事情。第一個,要不要有這個管理工具,這是第一件事情。"},{"start":5046.476,"end":5048.577,"text":"二、實施方法、實施時機、不要讓時機被濫用。三、實施方法"},{"start":5066.721,"end":5072.426,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":5094.003,"end":5096.546,"text":"處理法草案案 案。三、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5114.164,"end":5119.386,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5131.852,"end":5158.483,"text":"所以我建議說我們這三個條文的工具是讓他留但是我們綁一個附帶決議你要把事情細則定出來送本委員會就是說這事情細則包含剛才陳永康委員提的這個確實是一個問題啊你這個工具海軍不能用啊海軍沒辦法用嘛所以我就說這三個工具以我們自己有限的當兵的實務上它其實是個有效管理工具但不要被濫用啦不要被濫用所以開馬委員有什麼意見來"},{"start":5160.083,"end":5169.746,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事"},{"start":5187.432,"end":5188.573,"text":"處理法草案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件"},{"start":5205.188,"end":5221.105,"text":"這個確實有時候天高地遠一個雷達在一個牌那裡那個牌長比皇帝還大欸你被我禁足之後如果刪掉這條我個人也願意支持願辦好謝謝就是說把剛才馬委員講的那個就是長官同意就可以暫時中斷這個拿掉"},{"start":5222.486,"end":5227.732,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案件事項》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5238.365,"end":5259.04,"text":"但是把它明確化而不要變成小長官的濫用。」這個我們也否則一個排長可以害倒一個旅長所以這個是好意所以我再重新宣告一次有關331、33這個處罰樣態我們把它保留但是長官同意就可以中斷那一段把它拿掉文字請公安部整理一下我們附帶一個決議請再訂出各軍種"},{"start":5264.763,"end":5291.991,"text":"對應這個條文的處罰的相關的施行細則。報本委員會我最後還有一個問題喔就是說法戰那以例證刑之期時間為兩小時為限這件事情那沒有辦法去迴避掉夜間時間的理由是什麼?這個半夜執行對半夜例證就是你能夠讓他留有一個半夜半夜例證的理由是什麼?"},{"start":5292.671,"end":5293.071,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5314.036,"end":5323.546,"text":"那樣態保留,但是附帶決議,請訂出更均總施行的細則及不得為之的樣態。好,這個是30.3133,原則上照院版通過,但是加上我們剛剛修正的。好,第32條請學員說明。"},{"start":5340.1,"end":5344.192,"text":"我們這條可以同意院版,謝謝。好,我們32條照院版通過。第34條請徐委員說明,你要對應16條。"},{"start":5351.818,"end":5360.566,"text":"我們就是在原本的現行條文裡面等一下齁我有這個翻頁障礙症等我一下你是把懲罰種類做調整啊對對對這個是不是照願版因為他有他那個順序啦好我可以這個部分照願版謝謝許委員34條照願版通過好我們一路往下走齁到"},{"start":5380.577,"end":5382.539,"text":"70條是馬文君委員的修正動議,請馬委員說明。"},{"start":5392.621,"end":5410.636,"text":"因為你的提案沒有那個版本,不代表刪除他,你懂我意思嗎?我們先把這走完,你如果要提案把它全部刪掉,你另外提修正案,但現在我們不收修正案,我們先把這個法完備再來處理好不好?來,馬委員就70條。好,第70條,這個跟第18條是一樣的啦,就是剝奪或減少退出給予的懲罰處分,就一起保留。那71、72是不是都一樣?"},{"start":5418.243,"end":5425.869,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":5446.38,"end":5450.164,"text":"徐巧芯等20人修正草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案。"},{"start":5468.41,"end":5472.412,"text":"草案案件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案。"},{"start":5495.526,"end":5497.888,"text":"不牽涉政黨,保留去政黨協商,為沒法做科學的處分。」這裡面牽涉到就是說部隊擁有這個工具"},{"start":5513.66,"end":5513.92,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5526.048,"end":5551.349,"text":"這個好不好?那徐委員認為整個要拿掉。昨天翁小林委員認為說這個就是一般的還不應該列為重大他應該認為是隨時可用那我個人是支持按照院版比較折衷啦各位有沒有其他意見沒有意見的話我想就悔過這件事情我們出席的委員來做表決至少委員會中心主義這件事情很符合委員會中心主義他既沒有正常立場在裡面"},{"start":5551.809,"end":5557.054,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5580.225,"end":5583.227,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5590.902,"end":5612.597,"text":"絕對沒有政黨立場,不要一直講政黨政黨,這個法絕對沒有政黨立場。」所以你要表決,但是你不要想因為政黨,我來講說這個點剛好是大家的思考不一樣,而且是沒有政治色彩的,我一直強調這個,因為政委員可能不了解,我們在國防委員會"},{"start":5613.237,"end":5614.237,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5632.722,"end":5634.103,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5645.717,"end":5664.358,"text":"我可不可以再請國防部在在在我們如果要表決前再一次的呃陳述一次就是說你們覺得的你們心目中的悔過教育或你們預計想要實施的悔過教育包括哪一些內涵好這個很好那個沈司長或者徐副部長好第一個"},{"start":5665.279,"end":5668.9,"text":"處理法草案案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":5690.928,"end":5695.35,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5711.731,"end":5721.058,"text":"我再講一次表決方式、議事規則由遠而近先翁曉琳委員的主張是把他列為一般處分就可以了先表決他過了後面就不表決了"},{"start":5721.817,"end":5748.005,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具第2個表決是徐巧芯委員版的是應該整個就把他取消掉不應該有這個處罰的樣態一樣他表決通過了後面就不表決了第三個部分第三個部分是就回到院版表決這個意思規則沒問題吧這個是科學問題那就是多數決待會就是三個最後回到院版對那在表決前是不是先請沈市委司長進行詳細的說明"},{"start":5752.134,"end":5755.518,"text":"有誰說明?聯一請說明聯一你的說明會決定歷史的一刻請審慎說明"},{"start":5764.206,"end":5781.593,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等"},{"start":5792.797,"end":5802.123,"text":"會排練兩個小時的心得寫作,然後一樣在9點的時候實施完點名然後就寢。這大概是一天的課程。那至於什麼時間會啟動這個這個會關緊閉就關這個悔過呢?大概就是比如說我們講說"},{"start":5810.359,"end":5839.893,"text":"自願意的交酒駕就一律汰除,可是EUE我不能汰除他,EUE他酒駕之後我不能叫你退伍,那每個都去喝酒了,所以說這個EUE他犯了這個比較嚴重的錯誤的時候,那我們就會實施悔過,那悔過其實在裡面就是讓他去做一個,因為我們有教誨室,就是每一個悔過室裡面會編一個市長、副市長跟五個教誨室,那這個教誨室就是在跟他溝通觀念,除了這每天的上課之外,"},{"start":5840.253,"end":5861.521,"text":"你的教誨是在說明細一點在哪裡什麼教誨是教誨是事關的事就是人員你的教誨是事關有一個主責的人對有5個人那這5個人都是憲兵幾乎我們現在目前來講都是憲兵隊來派遣然後他們就是來負責教育他們讓他們知道說他犯了這個錯在軍中是不應該犯的"},{"start":5864.878,"end":5871.941,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":5883.127,"end":5895.514,"text":"實行任務在航行過程中不能談,等靠港再來罰站不可行。五、我們沒有火鍋式設計在船上,也沒有辦法限兵上船,所以這個在船上的執行上有非常大的困難,我們沒有特別空間。"},{"start":5899.165,"end":5922.304,"text":"跟委員報告,目前我們全軍有9處悔過事,1235專案區、金馬棚,然後包含陸子部,然後空座部是在第5聯隊,也就是說陸海空軍都有各自的悔過事,對,他就是看他,他不可能在船上實施,那像海軍的悔過事就是在陸子部裡面,"},{"start":5923.024,"end":5924.105,"text":"事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":5943.516,"end":5947.518,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":5966.775,"end":5982.58,"text":"沒有這一條的壞處是什麼?」我想要請你們很具體的再描述一次這件事情這個對整個部隊來講它是一個非常好的遏止他去犯錯的一個手段因為禁足或者是說緊閉"},{"start":5984.241,"end":5986.082,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":6003.711,"end":6028.251,"text":"先送明德班,再送立德班。」那明德班、立德班大概就是在蘭嶼、綠島。那這個對之前二、三十年前的一五一的弟兄來講,他這是一個非常很好遏止他去...不是,那會變人生的噩夢,不是很好遏止嘛。對,但是至少他是一個手段。那現在如果說悔過事都拿掉了,那今天他喝酒了,他酒駕了,"},{"start":6029.829,"end":6058.477,"text":"自願役的職業太處,可是他要服一年期的義務役,那他能做什麼處分?我聽懂你的意思,但我的意思是說,比方就你,假如他喝酒,我在想的事情是說,因為我剛剛為什麼第一個要想問,那他的悔過教育是什麼?就是說,如果你的悔過教育是可以精準的去處理他真的那個犯的錯,對他犯的錯有所精準的校正,"},{"start":6059.431,"end":6059.831,"text":"函請審查：一、行政院函請審議"},{"start":6076.066,"end":6091.113,"text":"這個事情就會讓我會一直有點在想說在補充給他這樣子的內容對於我們想要去處理他的那個犯錯的那個部分有沒有實質的對應關係我現在腦中卡的我現在腦中在想的會是這件事情那個徐巧芯委員"},{"start":6097.637,"end":6098.677,"text":"草案案案件。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6117.586,"end":6145.534,"text":"但是剛才聽起來我覺得相對於就是說您剛的說明相對於我們在29條看到的是更嚴重的懲罰這是我要描述的第一點第二點呢您剛講到了因為要規範義務役的問題可是問題是志願役也會被納進去啊那志願役也被納進去的情況底下我還是一樣我很擔心悔過變成霸凌的問題不好意思召委再給我一點時間講第三點"},{"start":6147.415,"end":6162.7,"text":"第三點是毀過懲罰向來就有限制人身自由的憲法爭議那在你再加上剛才講到的有兩點我覺得簡直莫名其妙就是體制能的教育跟心得寫作"},{"start":6164.101,"end":6188.357,"text":"這兩點現在聽起來沒有問題但是實際上我們接到非常多的來自於霸凌甚至有輕生的有輕生智商案的都是在他要求你體適能不斷跑不斷的抄你的體能然後跟叫你心得協作甚至指示你寫出一些讓你自身尊嚴受到"},{"start":6189.378,"end":6202.801,"text":"打壓的內容之後他受不了的。」所以我覺得悔過如果今天是一個不限制人身自由然後呢合理的一個軍紀跟軍法的簡單教育我可以認同但是以剛剛來說的說明來說的話我覺得顯然比上面的29條來得更加嚴重謝謝好我們現在處理表決但是我強調不管表決結果是什麼"},{"start":6215.143,"end":6217.505,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":6235.217,"end":6235.957,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件徐巧芯等20人擬事件"},{"start":6257.967,"end":6264.95,"text":"處理法草案案。五、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。七、陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6288.712,"end":6306.806,"text":"處理法草案案案件。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案件。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案件。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案件。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案件。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案件。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案件。"},{"start":6320.896,"end":6321.897,"text":"那這樣會整個移除掉喔沒有我再強調一次這是由遠而近的表決喔"},{"start":6331.587,"end":6334.27,"text":"由遠而近的表決,任何一案簽過後面就不表決。」"},{"start":6353.65,"end":6357.172,"text":"我特別跟委員再次先這個報告,國防部對於毀過這個處分是堅持要保留。報告完畢。"},{"start":6381.851,"end":6385.374,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":6409.23,"end":6410.791,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":6440.165,"end":6450.929,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 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我們休息"},{"start":6792.205,"end":6802.627,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":6817.77,"end":6834.001,"text":"軍人權益保障法當中有關眷屬的權益……對,以前有眷屬,為什麼現在全部都把它拿掉了?這個是針對軍人的權益要去處理,以前對軍人的輔導訴受什麼,我們都還是有在做,持續的在做。這個法是新定的。這是一個新法?所以你的意思是說,它本來就放在舊的裡面?本來就是我們在處理。"},{"start":7493.64,"end":7497.683,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":7504.11,"end":7531.228,"text":"附帶決議二、針對陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案中有關減速、禁足及罰站等懲罰種類,請國防部依各軍種特性與實行細則中明定相關執行方式及不得為之之樣態。提案人委員王定宇、陳永康、盧美玲、陳冠廷、陳建宇、洪森翰、沈伯陽等。宣讀完畢。好,這個附帶決議各位有沒有意見?沒有意見我們照案通過。"},{"start":7535.879,"end":7536.939,"text":"其他還沒寫來嗎?我們這個附帶決議是剛才我們剛處理完的那照決議通過請那個副部長督導各業館這個其實執行起來我覺得是一個進步就各軍種的處罰方式因軍種而質疑這個才是對的好 那個其他的附帶決議來了嗎?"},{"start":7574.024,"end":7598.096,"text":"其他決議提交本席後我們再來處理我們先移動到今天要修的第二套法案是軍人權益事件處理法草案已經宣讀過現在一樣處理的原則如果沒有提案修正沒有提新版本我們就以院版通過討論的基準以院版的順序為討論基準順序"},{"start":7600.137,"end":7612.928,"text":"然後在修正動議上由遠而近來進行相關討論。」我想這個權益事件處理法比較單純那我們各委員可以提供相關寶貴意見馬委員剛才那個附帶決議雖然通過我再念一次給你聽這個"},{"start":7619.217,"end":7625.06,"text":"針對陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案中有關減速、禁足及罰站等懲罰種類,請國防部依各軍種特性於施行細則中明定相關執行方式及不得為之樣態。」主席我再補充一點我們昨天有討論到一個堅持的部分那國防部說要列"},{"start":7641.246,"end":7642.447,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":7662.815,"end":7678.269,"text":"討論的次序以院版的順序為基準,然後以修正動議的遠而近來進行相關的討論做聚焦。」那這個如果各位委員沒有意見的話我就採取這方式來進行聯署完再來處理"},{"start":7689.222,"end":7692.585,"text":"兼職部分處理法草案案。五、國防部與本法施行前因完成國軍人員不得在外兼職兼拆規定之修正"},{"start":7710.639,"end":7729.854,"text":"並送本院外交及國防委員會備查,未來持續配合公務員服務法事實修正。二、請國防部提供現行有關非勤務上違紀行為之懲罰基準相關規定,供本院外交國防委員會參酌。這是昨天通過的,我們再附送一次。"},{"start":7732.356,"end":7752.66,"text":"有關監差職及政協委員關心的部分我們都處理在附帶決議也請國防部整理好務必照這個執行也提供給各媒體朋友然後洪森和委員的附帶決議完成了嗎?正在連署我們現在來到權益保障條文在這裡"},{"start":7766.578,"end":7778.128,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":7796.692,"end":7819.327,"text":"他改文字,他把妥適迅速改成統合處理,其實他不會說差別不大,第一條我覺得是不是照原版通過,那個文字,妥適迅速統合處理軍人權益事件,那他把它修正是統合處理軍人權益事件,他把迅速拿掉的樣子。"},{"start":7822.967,"end":7827.949,"text":"處理法草案 案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案 案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":7852.25,"end":7855.091,"text":"行政院函請審議第8條有徐巧芯委員版本,徐委員不在"},{"start":7874.152,"end":7878.195,"text":"全保委員要排除職業軍人退伍法律師有沒有說明"},{"start":7885.228,"end":7913.517,"text":"草委跟各位報告我們是覺得說排除曾經擔任過志願役的人員我們覺得可能不是那麼適切啦因為我們找的這些委員都一定是看他的專業他可能當了志願兵可能當了三年四年退伍了之後他變成一個大學多年以後變成大學教授這個例子太多了那所以說我們著重的是他的專業我們想說不要一律把曾經擔任過志願役的人員排除掉他這個委員變成是職業軍人退了他們不能用啦這一條放下去的話來那個馬委員"},{"start":7913.797,"end":7938.716,"text":"他修正的主要的目的是因為過去到現在有很多不管你任何的救濟行為大家都會認為我們是官官相護所以你現在又全部都是用這樣子的話沒有你用了很多這樣子你之前他們在前面的幾個例子其實大概就是發生這樣的情形所以你必須要避免這樣子的一個做法"},{"start":7939.877,"end":7947.122,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":7966.545,"end":7982.579,"text":"這樣好不好那個提案委員不在啦但他的用意我猜得出來就是馬委員詮釋徐委員的提案大概是意義啦但在實務上會產生兩個謬誤第一個一定比例好不好我們用那個一定比例就跟你所有的"},{"start":7983.76,"end":7986.062,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8013.402,"end":8034.66,"text":"照院版通過,但是他後面因為有一個定定辦法,我們請光復你一個附帶決議,你定將來這個委員的臨聘過程,第一個必須要利益迴避,比如說我是這個單位退下來的,這個就比較精準,你不能說我空軍職業軍人,我那時候是一個士官長退,我現在考到律師了,我不行了,我們把第一個"},{"start":8035.461,"end":8048.456,"text":"把利益迴避、原單位迴避這幾個原則把它放進去這樣可能會比較精準還有人員的比例啦因為你像有一些那非軍職人員的比例請明訂在那個細則裡面因為我們任何的都有嘛"},{"start":8052.58,"end":8054.34,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8081.469,"end":8102.402,"text":"我們有提一個附帶決議那是針對怎麼選人這個為求公正公開的方的精神希望要比照你的附帶決議我看一下比照行政院公共工程委員會跟教育部的做法應該完善相關執法並公開於民間資訊網路我們在講軍權軍人權益你有附帶決議嗎我沒看到該送了吧我們已經送了沒有"},{"start":8114.162,"end":8118.923,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8128.971,"end":8152.39,"text":"第2章第8條遭怨版通過,但是我們附帶決議,請國防部幫忙擬一下,就是你們那個第幾條有說明定的事情細則,請在裡面寫清楚利益迴避、員單位迴避以及一定比例的非內部人員,把它寫在你們的細則裡面,把那個附帶決議交給本席,本席就來處理。第二個我們現在有"},{"start":8153.77,"end":8163.617,"text":"剛才還沒有處理完的附帶決議我也在這邊先一併處理有關陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案的悔過制度紅山委員有一個附帶決議請宣讀一下"},{"start":8166.618,"end":8194.52,"text":"附帶決議。三、針對陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案中有關悔過懲罰制度,須於相關實行辦法中納入新府課程,並參考修復式、司法精神及引用外部專業新府之員以有效導正悔過效果。提案人委員洪生翰、王定宇、陳永康、沈博洋、盧美玲、陳俊雲等。宣讀完畢。來,有沒有意見?沒意見,我們照案通過,這個是對的啦。我們把悔過加了新府,這是好事。"},{"start":8196.422,"end":8200.808,"text":"現在是軍人權益事件處理法,就剛才第8條有一個附帶決議我們也在這裡一併處理,請宣讀。"},{"start":8217.971,"end":8234.123,"text":"處理法附帶決議第一案。軍人權益事件處理法第8條訂定專任及兼任權益保障委員組成,為求公正、公開,請國防部參照行政院公共工程委員會、教育部等部會之相關做法,完善相關執法,並公開與民間資訊網路。"},{"start":8237.791,"end":8254.34,"text":"應包含建立具體臨選委員辦法及公開透明之議事規定公開委員臨聘作業程序並納入民間團體代表意見將相關名單公開與民間資訊網路體驗人委員洪森翰、沈伯陽、陳冠廷、王定宇等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8266.2,"end":8270.909,"text":"處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8283.081,"end":8300.074,"text":"這個第8條的附帶決議講的是這個組成要公開然後參照公共工程委員會交易部部會相關做法那個完善相關制法並公開於民間資訊網路也就是說你這個委員要可受公平外面人要看得到然後呢"},{"start":8302.276,"end":8329.11,"text":"你的遴選辦法、公開透明議事規定、聆訊作業納入明天的……我覺得跟剛才那個附帶決議異曲同工之妙把他講得更細而已我們剛才已經有個附帶決議了你們在訂相關細則的時候把這個納入我覺得如果作為這一個權益的委員公告這是對的啦我讓軍中有冤的人我知道去找誰嘛這個附帶決議各位有沒有意見沒有的話我們"},{"start":8331.512,"end":8344.882,"text":"這主要是因為過去國防部會有一些資訊他們比較習慣可能放在自己的軍網所以在軍網裡面可以看得到可是外界人不一定都可以看得到所以我們才特別強調希望能夠放在民間的資訊網路這個原因是這樣這個民間資訊網路指的是什麼其實他們有外網啦就公佈在外網就好了啦"},{"start":8351.854,"end":8352.535,"text":"相關完善相關之法並公開於國防部公開資訊網站。"},{"start":8376.044,"end":8391.458,"text":"還有外網,完善相關執法並公開於後面加上改成國防部網站。好,來我們接下來處理第10條是馬文君委員這個是政協會委員的修正案來請說明第10條第10條"},{"start":8401.018,"end":8425.23,"text":"他把合意改成審議,我也不知道,差幾年了。他本來在做的事情就叫做審議啦,合意是說這五個人一起討論,共同合意來決定,他本來這件事情的本身就是審議啦。這個我們看就原版通過啦,這個實質上差別不大啦,馬委員。那個在哪裡,第10條。"},{"start":8427.421,"end":8432.527,"text":"他把那個合意有沒有第三行的合意改成審議這張有那個政委員的提案是不是印一份給馬委員他比較好找這個有一個彙整的給馬委員"},{"start":8452.23,"end":8457.855,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。七、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。八、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權益事件處理法草案》案。"},{"start":8482.105,"end":8494.554,"text":"這個部分我覺得是可以依照這個修正的文字因為要送達當事人有時候你艦艇到達的時間他這個部分可以"},{"start":8503.672,"end":8520.614,"text":"修正成這樣送達當事人的次日起算,這有什麼問題嗎?我跟委員報告,鄭委員可能誤會了這個是說在船上那個本來就會送達當事人那個當事人他跟他一直都在船上他也沒有別的地方可以去"},{"start":8521.595,"end":8535.947,"text":"這條本來寫的30日啊等等是說已經送達給他了然後靠崗的時候再給他一個時間所以說這個送達給當事人是就是本來就已經會送達給當事人一定的了對所以我可能政委有點誤會這個意思了"},{"start":8538.413,"end":8538.573,"text":"條文規範條文規範條文規範"},{"start":8555.066,"end":8562.589,"text":"航行中的船舶靠港了以後,你要另外給他起算一個時間。」所以他本來就已經收到這個部分,他是已經收到的。這樣好不好,這幾條我們一併處理,你剛才講是第幾條?第15、55、15、55、58都是送答的問題,還有62。"},{"start":8579.738,"end":8582.341,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8592.331,"end":8610.161,"text":"處理法復待決議。二、軍人權益事件處理法第三章附審中第15條、第22條、第23條等相關規定及日數相關規定參酌公務人員保障法,然公務人員上下班與休假時間固定,30日有足夠時間與相關人員討論、準備。然軍人經常執行暫"},{"start":8614.804,"end":8634.234,"text":"演訓出海等任務無法隨時離營或對外請求協助與公務人員休假形態窘意。請國防部奠定相關執法使應考量當事人演訓、休假、出海狀況給予足夠準備時間避免影響當事人權益。」提案人委員洪森駭、沈博洋、陳冠廷、王定宇等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8635.034,"end":8638.797,"text":"他這個條文其實是說軍人我們一般人要準備30天但是軍人戰備演訓或者汗光你沒辦法準備這個我覺得他是請你們研議啦我覺得這個就通過讓他們去研議啦對這個很明...剛剛那個應該很明確啦就是說他的文書送達是確定他在艦艇上面是應該有的喔對就是你不能去...你不要說他...你時間算了他一收到明天就要出艇或裝備這不可以發生因為他們要預防的大概也是這個問題嘛"},{"start":8666.394,"end":8692.804,"text":"審事長,政協委員的提案是關切官兵權益。你剛才的說明,我建議你們做個文字的說明給馬委員也給政協委員說,你們還樂是這樣子,而不是我們這樣口頭帶過去。雖然我們會議有留記錄,這樣比較妥適。第二個,有關洪聖翰委員的提案是好意,因為軍中的樣態確實,你軍人在漢光,你叫他去準備權益沒辦法嘛。所以你們,這個叫你們研議,他沒有說決定怎麼樣。"},{"start":8693.484,"end":8694.625,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、行政院函請審議"},{"start":8718.663,"end":8742.655,"text":"附帶決議第3案,針對軍人權益事件處理法草案第8條有關堅認權保委員之格,應與同條第4項授權訂定之辦法中,擬具規範堅認權保委員其原服役單位等利益迴避事項及退役軍職人員堅認委員之比例限制。提案人委員王定宇、沈伯陽、盧美玲、馬文君、陳永康等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8742.995,"end":8743.475,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8760.325,"end":8762.267,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8781.624,"end":8806.394,"text":"這一條之前我在質詢跟公聽會的時候都有在說明過就是說我國有一些部分的異南或是新住民子女他們常年旅居在這個海外那因為所以因為他們的中文可能不是那麼的熟悉所以他們在軍中的時候其實會遇到很多的一些問題那我們希望說如果他遇到這個權益申訴的事件的時候我們也會很擔心說他們的語言的這個困境沒有辦法"},{"start":8806.934,"end":8810.716,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8831.67,"end":8845.534,"text":"好,那我們就照沈伯陽、羅美玲委員修正動議通過好,接下來處理55案處理完了第57案是有徐巧芯版本57案這個部分差異在哪裡?"},{"start":8849.275,"end":8850.615,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8869.036,"end":8874.442,"text":"處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":8891.059,"end":8916.667,"text":"檢訴、禁足罰刑罰站等,我們有附帶決議,請一併適用這裡。」這樣就解決徐委員關心的事情了。好,58條該處理完了,62條處理完了,69條處理完了。第5章第70條,沈伯陽委員、翁曉琳委員有提修正動議,請沈伯陽委員說明。好,這個單純就是因為他有時候會跟民事案件等等那個會有衝突啦,所以按照這個就是讓他準用法院組織法,就是當他們有這一個"},{"start":8917.747,"end":8938.544,"text":"審判權正義的時候回歸法院組織法這樣的一個規定,想說沒有訂上去幫忙補上去而已。好,那個法律師有沒有意見?是沒有意見,我們配合。那翁曉琳委員的案子是什麼?翁曉琳...看一下好不好,是不是跟你雷同?你們有沒有看到翁曉琳的案子?那翁曉琳委員的...欸,馬委員,淡姐,翁曉琳委員的案子他不在,但我還是讓他納進好不好?"},{"start":8940.08,"end":8945.504,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":8986.894,"end":8999.224,"text":"有關懲罰法部分主席補宣告。剛才有幾條,當然徐巧芯委員沒有提出堅持,包含軍官罰情等等這些,那因為我們剛已經宣告了。"},{"start":8999.944,"end":9024.456,"text":"除了有修正的照修正通過,其餘照院板通過,那另外唯一保留的是有關糾纏之後的退休籍與剝奪的部分,其他我們就照那個原則做處理。好,我再補宣告一次。那剛才條文的部分呢,20、21、22、23、24我們照院板通過,有沒有意義?"},{"start":9025.456,"end":9034.34,"text":"處理法草案。五、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":9051.72,"end":9078.257,"text":"擬具審查報告提報院會,請問院會審議前是否需交由黨團協商?不需要。院會審議時請推派一位委員做補充說明,請推派。通常這個確實是主席要幹的事情。我是樂於推派陳永康將軍。好吧,那就由昭偉。"},{"start":9080.566,"end":9107.669,"text":"有保留啊,你們這個文字不要修,我待會處理,我會處理。那個,院會審議時推派召委王定宇做補充說明,大家沒有異議。第三點,我們保留有關,有關保留退休給予的部分,請議事院把條文強列,退休給予剝奪的部分強列,那個部分要交由黨團協商才對。所以剛才說不需要,這不對。我再,第三點,我重新再宣告一次,"},{"start":9112.076,"end":9112.296,"text":"這個院會審議前"},{"start":9116.019,"end":9130.53,"text":"攸關糾談後剝奪退休給予相關條文,請一聲援把他降列,交由黨團協商。其餘不須黨團協商,其餘通過條文不須黨團協商。願會審議時,請推派王定宇、趙偉做補充說明。以上各位有沒有意見?陳委員OK啦,好。"},{"start":9141.838,"end":9149.446,"text":"本次法案審查如有法制用字用語調整授權益事人員處理。」各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":9151.901,"end":9175.223,"text":"昨天下午跟今天為一次會那我要多講兩句話我們這一次審查這兩套法案審查的過程、討論的方式以及議決的方式本人以跟各位作為同事至少這次會我自己深感為榮我們終於完成這兩套法的修案我們現在散會大家辛苦"},{"start":9179.733,"end":9187.559,"text":"處理法律事件處理法律事件處理法律事件"},{"start":9197.619,"end":9199.72,"text":"判身本屆典範 判身本屆典範"},{"start":9228.813,"end":9235.577,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案件事項》案。三、行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9253.903,"end":9255.806,"text":"處理法草案案。"}]}},{"id":"15896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15896","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d5da7963983a35b0d58d85e2d08749d243be8d109af184be47b662ca9b3d6d7305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-05-09T08:30:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-09T12:28:00+08:00","duration":14233,"影片長度":"03:57:13","委員發言時間":"08:30:47 - 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林思凱副理事長還有好夥設計 周嘉偉共同創辦人及營運長我們再來介紹臺灣大學社會工作學系 羅雍聖同學"},{"start":2252.861,"end":2278.516,"text":"青年諮詢委員會 黃佩琦委員政治大學學生會 徐志遠會長與會的官員教育部政務次長 林明玉教育部青年發展署 陳雪玉署長"},{"start":2286.524,"end":2291.885,"text":"行政院人事行政總署主編人力處專門委員蔡憲偉主計總署公務預算處顏玉平科長還有兩位旁聽的朋友"},{"start":2306.835,"end":2321.779,"text":"社團法人 臺灣少年權益及福利促進聯盟契宣倡議員 佐新平社團法人 臺灣少年權益與福利促進聯盟倡議研發員 呂嘉雲"},{"start":2334.11,"end":2337.493,"text":"袁知大學 社政系 劉耀偉同學"},{"start":2353.311,"end":2364.641,"text":"好那為了能讓這個順利表達意見那我們做如下的處理每位貴賓發言時間為7分鐘那在第6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲的提醒7分鐘結束的時候會有個結束的鈴聲那專家學者的發言"},{"start":2373.588,"end":2392.414,"text":"簽名先後順序為準,現場發言及書面資料,立法院會做成紀錄刊登公報,在場會有立法委員,有意見要發表,會在會議中進行穿插,以在場委員登記順序發言"},{"start":2396.716,"end":2404.722,"text":"現在我們就請教育部林政事來發言就現行的規定跟執行的狀況相關的問題來提出說明時間5分鐘"},{"start":2416.325,"end":2437.991,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早今天承蒙各位委員會議安排訂定《青年基本法草案》公聽會本人承邀列席自感榮幸並聆聽各位委員專家學者著見有關本部對於《青年基本法草案》說明如書面報告"},{"start":2439.144,"end":2457.835,"text":"以下本部僅就委員所提《青年基本法草案》公聽會所列之提綱進行說明進行委員指教支持首先有關青年的年齡範圍定義以及跟民間倡議的劃分範圍有所不同應該如何劃定這個標準"},{"start":2459.509,"end":2479.083,"text":"一、本部就青年定義先行收集國外案例參考可發現各國對於青年的定義略有不同、重視程度也不同在歐洲國家是比較多,比如說芬蘭、冰島、盧森島那韓國,韓國也在前年立法,那日本則沒有"},{"start":2481.857,"end":2506.136,"text":"另外對於行政院親自會的青年代表是我們是定義為18歲到35歲以下本國籍的學生或社會青年並審酌兒少法已經涵蓋未滿18歲的人所以諮詢委員給我們的建議是定義為18歲到35歲如果依照目前台灣的居住人口我們這樣的年齡範圍界定有521萬5224人"},{"start":2509.793,"end":2531.593,"text":"如果拉長到40歲為青年的話則佔全國人口的40.7%考量各部會及職校視線對於明訂執行青年相關政策的計劃的時候其適用的年齡範圍若有不同的需求那衛力政策推動則可以建議它以另外法律來規定重啟規定"},{"start":2533.789,"end":2548.595,"text":"其次針對青年事務的推展應設機關指定機關或現有部會相互間協調這方面我們有做一些說明青年事務方面是涉及多元涉及到就業"},{"start":2550.736,"end":2562.876,"text":"創業、居住、教育、健康、經濟、文化等不同主管機關的權責在上位立法之前為促進青年參與政策各級政府近年來都積極推動"},{"start":2564.707,"end":2588.241,"text":"各項青年參與機制納入青年的聲音提升青年在政府政策上的影響力行政院在105年8月16號定定親子會設置要點並於同年11月1日成立親子會令截至113年上個月為止全國已經有19個直轄市縣設置有青年事務專責單位20個縣市設置青年諮詢組織"},{"start":2594.585,"end":2607.564,"text":"2.青年政策的推動涉及跨部會業務,為使青年事務推動有效整合跨部會的資源,未來可以研議建立跨部會事務協調機制,邀請專業學者及青年代表共同參與"},{"start":2608.905,"end":2633.054,"text":"第三就如何加強青年事務在中央部會與各地方政府專責機關的垂直跟水平的整合各地方政府機關應該要如何編制全者為和說明如下報告五一本部青年署持續加強中央與地方政府的串聯透過辦理青年專責單位主管的聯席會議那去年是在台南我有親自參加促進全國"},{"start":2634.775,"end":2642.817,"text":"第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會．立法院第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":2664.352,"end":2687.095,"text":"在青年政策白筆書或政策綱領等應為每幾年發布為合適為建立我國相關青年政策的施政依據及指導原則政府應考量國家方向及社會需求政策的願景研擬青年政策白筆書青年政策"},{"start":2689.677,"end":2714.936,"text":"規劃時程參考現行的基本法對於發展計畫或政策綱領訂定規定大約均以4年至5年為規劃週期另外青年政策文件建議整合就業、創業、就學、居住、健康、文化、公共參與等跨部會業務邀請青年參與並依政策目標擬定對應的推動策略"},{"start":2715.919,"end":2730.109,"text":"中葬今年是國家發展的重要角色也是推動社會發展的重要力量本部將持續的關切今年基本法的這個研擬方向在此公聽會之後能夠收集更多的意見 以上報告好 我們謝謝教育部政事 林政事的口頭說明跟報告"},{"start":2742.84,"end":2759.962,"text":"文化委員會本期也是這一次青年基本法的提案人之一所以我想請各位專家學者跟我們各位委員上台發言之前我也先表達一下我的意見那我認為青年族群有著最新穎的思維"},{"start":2761.344,"end":2788.502,"text":"與相當積極的行動力他們一直以來都是以促進國家發展推動社會進步的重要力量不過我們需要一部系統性盤整青年政策與青年事務的法律以基本法的高度來保障青年的各項權利確保政策的延續性政策發展的長遠性也讓我們中央跟地方的執政團隊有原則性的指引可以遵循"},{"start":2789.322,"end":2809.899,"text":"那在我的草案版本裡面有幾點要加以說明首先有關於青年的年齡範圍的界定我國各地方政府在他們青年諮詢的組織成員的年齡定義上就有各自不同的範圍而我是參照行政院青年諮詢委員會委員的年齡的定義"},{"start":2810.74,"end":2821.481,"text":"就是以18歲以上至35歲以下的人為本法所稱的青年並參考韓國相關的立法與其他法令"},{"start":2823.109,"end":2823.749,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":2844.717,"end":2862.484,"text":"然而在更細節的這個政策內容我認為則必須也比較適合在本法指令下交由相關部會以及地方政府局處競速來完成制定那提到負責青年業務的單位我想因新設機關指定機關或現有部會的協調我認為不宜讓權責分散到各部會"},{"start":2872.088,"end":2897.853,"text":"需要有專責的單位去進行青年政策的系統性盤整那雖然在中央機關部會數量飽和的情況之下是否要進行調整有研議的空間不過我還是希望對青年的照顧與權力的保障至少要有專責單位來統合目前業務分散的情況那至於在地方上我認為"},{"start":2900.093,"end":2925.361,"text":"為了有效執行因地制宜的政策單位的層級應盡可能以一級機關來做設置並寬列青年事務的預算以彰顯對青年事務的重視政府要如何具體展現對青年事務的重視青年政策規劃文件的發布就相當的重要根據民間的意見以及參考《客家基本法》"},{"start":2926.041,"end":2947.65,"text":"科學技術基本法的政策規劃發布的期程我認為應該每4年發布一次相關的文件委託但考量到現代社會變遷很快速那青年政策有隨時集中性檢討的必要所以也是應當定期廣納社會的意見作為政策原理的參考"},{"start":2948.97,"end":2969.743,"text":"關於台灣是否要再訂定一個青年日屬於台灣的台灣青年日現在各委員的版本都有提及到我在這邊提供一個想法給大家參考在我的草案中主張為紀念1920年代台灣留日知識分子對台灣社會的政治啟蒙的貢獻"},{"start":2971.004,"end":2977.048,"text":"提議以當時的新民社所發行的台灣青年創刊號的發刊日7月16號為台灣訂定一個台灣青年日"},{"start":2983.516,"end":3004.033,"text":"那我想青年是讓國家發展的原動力與此同時國家也應有責任保障青年活出自己想要的未來保障青年自我實現所以希望我們各位委員能共同攜手一起來推動青年基本法的立法以上謝謝"},{"start":3007.822,"end":3016.887,"text":"我們再來又有來多親這一位專家學者就是我們臺灣學生聯合會黃廷偉副秘書長我們現在就請"},{"start":3025.509,"end":3045.788,"text":"我不好意思我剛是補充介紹好那我們接下來就請簽名是續第1位的專家學者就是我們的大同大學事業經營所的同學方承安同學來發言那接下來是請清華大學通識教育中心的助理教授何志勇"},{"start":3050.322,"end":3073.561,"text":"各位來賓大家好對於說青年的年齡範圍之定義我認為說從15歲為起始年齡會比較好因為為了因應進入高中生活後需要立即面臨的生涯規劃部分我認為到18歲才被列入青年發展的法案的話可能會稍嫌有點晚"},{"start":3075.262,"end":3091.256,"text":"以現在大多數人在24至25歲完成碩士學業畢業後3到5年是社會新鮮人最需要幫助的階段我認為說在有限的資源下避免資源浪費或分散應將青年的最大年齡設為30歲較為適當然後"},{"start":3096.567,"end":3119.494,"text":"就這青年事務之推展應新設機關指定機關或現有各部會間相互協調我認為應新設一個一級機關那就是因為由於現在青法署為教育部下三級機關我認為說要涵蓋所有例如說兵役教育創業等領域的話全能稍顯不足那"},{"start":3120.902,"end":3144.716,"text":"清法署在三級機關的情況下也難以對其他例如說兵役相關的國防部這類型的機關指手畫腳所以我認為應該新設一個一級機關就如何加強青年事務在中央部會與地方政府專責機關之垂直溝通與連結我認為這應該"},{"start":3148.376,"end":3163.289,"text":"交由新設立的機關以及各部會去做協調然後也不應說因為一些政治上的原因去阻擋新設立的部會取得各項資料"},{"start":3165.319,"end":3188.801,"text":"在政府諸如《青年政策白筆書》、《青年發展政策綱領》等政策規劃文件我認為說應每4年發布一次《青年政策白筆書》以因應每一次的不管是立法院還是行政院的改組就其他與《青年政策》、《青年事務》相關之立法建議我認為可以"},{"start":3189.932,"end":3211.919,"text":"建置一個整合性的網路平台例如說像現在速發部所推出的我的一政府創建這一站式的青年政策平台整合政策解讀、補助指南、教育與創業指引的信息平台應友好且便於搜索幫助青年能夠快速查找與計生需求相關的政策"},{"start":3212.759,"end":3239.836,"text":"因為每一個政策的推行都是為了讓民眾以及像現在的青年能夠更好的發展那我認為說就政策推廣的部分應該要更為的強力以避免說大部分的青年其實不知道他們自身的權益或權力為何那甚至是知道了也不知道如何去做申請以上就是我這次的發言謝謝大家"},{"start":3246.208,"end":3250.934,"text":"接下來請清華大學通識教育中心主教授何志勇來發言黃婕委員"},{"start":3275.049,"end":3291.002,"text":"主席好 各位委員 各位在場的長官跟嘉賓大家好 我是清華大學通識中心何志勇那我覺得今天來開這個青年基本法的這個公聽會我覺得最重要的還是在於說我們的受眾是什麼 年齡層在哪裡"},{"start":3291.903,"end":3308.456,"text":"那到底是不是15到1815、18到35是一個合理的範圍這就是要想一下到底我們想要做什麼因為我們知道那個預算的餅是固定的那如果你想要在這個地方多一點錢那別人就會少一點錢嘛那勢必就是會有排擠效應所以我們想要做什麼"},{"start":3309.116,"end":3337.193,"text":"第一個到底是不是要集中資源在學青身上若是以學生為主的話這個年齡層恐怕在押到15到30歲以前會比較適當但是偏偏我們現在台灣最大的問題就是大多數人尤其是像這個Y世代Z世代Z世代比較小一點了X世代Y世代他們現在可能在就業他們超過30歲了那買房然後這個房子的這個房價又現在比較高"},{"start":3337.873,"end":3338.273,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3352.978,"end":3371.926,"text":"如果我們把這個年齡層拉到45歲我覺得會比較合理一點而且重點就是說到底是你想幫助哪一位人那今天我這些意見其實也跟這個新竹縣政府的教育局的局長楊俊慈我們有交換過然後把它整合來跟大家簡單的口頭陳述一下主要是我們剛剛在強調一下15歲開始會比較佳"},{"start":3375.367,"end":3392.103,"text":"直押探索,你到18歲都已經高三或大一了,我覺得有點晚了,你看在德國,他們從小學就開始分流嘛,你要念大學,念這個技職,從很小就開始做了那至於像這個我們剛剛講的這個創業補助,清創貸款,這東西你30歲以下他可能沒有這個需求"},{"start":3392.703,"end":3413.492,"text":"三十五歲以上可能有這個需求所以你這個東西你要不要照顧到這些人所以我覺得青年應該放寬為十五到四十五歲之間那我們剛剛講說這個尤其像這個Y世代按照這個美國最近的這個統計即便是這個千禧世代就是1981到1969我想在座蠻多人是這個年齡層的我大概也在這個年齡層裡面他們這個整體成家率是"},{"start":3416.593,"end":3429.779,"text":"人口的均值的兩倍那這個購物的成本也就上升因為他們晚婚再來就是說他們在2022年首購族的平均年齡從2021的33上到2022的36歲我覺得這個都是他山之石可以攻錯了等於說假設我們放到35歲用美國的統計數字來看"},{"start":3442.304,"end":3457.011,"text":"他手夠足是36歲啊,你照顧不到他嘛那學生他只是要的可能是出國交流喔或者是一些簡單的這些補助那他並不需要投資購物等等這是第一個那第二個我想要講的就是說"},{"start":3458.635,"end":3474.088,"text":"其實大家想說到底要不要一個專責單位我覺得講專責單位不如讓政府提供單一窗口服務我覺得這也可以省掉一些人力的成本什麼叫做單一窗口服務呢我們知道譬如說以新竹縣為例"},{"start":3475.609,"end":3479.091,"text":"有關青年業務可能閃在文化局、行政處、產發處、農業處、原住民的原住處"},{"start":3492.932,"end":3492.952,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3523.152,"end":3523.673,"text":"政府提供採樣補助或申請優惠"},{"start":3541.674,"end":3553.684,"text":"所以我覺得政府應該做就是讓這個東西讓大家方便去找要不然他怎麼可能我怎麼知道我要清創我要去找文化局還要找行政處我只要單一窗口就好那後面的後續這些申請人不用管"},{"start":3555.27,"end":3577.21,"text":"這個我認為應該是可以做的那另外我想舉個例像現在很多地方政府利用政府的閒置空間來進行活化使用設立新創孵化基地或者是新創的導師媒合這也是涉及到蠻多局處不同的業務所以怎麼樣能夠讓"},{"start":3579.011,"end":3579.231,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3608.513,"end":3608.533,"text":"黃婉婕議員"},{"start":3633.595,"end":3661.568,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位在座各位夥伴大家好剛剛有第一位同學說那個30歲以上不算青年了然後想說那我超過了我現在已經不是青年的代表但是沒有關係我還是非常在乎年輕人的權益這個也是過去我在議會就不斷的在提的所以現在很感謝我們林錦委員這樣召開這個青年基本法的公聽會我覺得廣納青年的聲音真的非常的重要"},{"start":3662.288,"end":3684.205,"text":"那因為其實大家有提出非常多的版本那裡面其實光是從年齡的定義啊然後服務的對象然後要納入什麼樣的參與權其實都有蠻多分歧的意見所以我覺得今天大家希望大家可以多聚焦那我也希望說這個版本可以趕快的最後大家有共識送出去那在我自己的版本裡面最重要的兩個重點"},{"start":3685.586,"end":3711.665,"text":"第一個是就是要讓青年能夠參與公共政策因為大家的聲音納進來賦予他權利是最重要的所以我的版本裡面有提到說中央政府每年應該要召開兩次的青年政策的諮詢匯報讓這些青年代表專家學者跟公民團體來參與然後隨時滾動式的檢討青年的政策然後讓青年本身就在這個政策形成的過程當中我認為這個是最重要的"},{"start":3712.185,"end":3738.906,"text":"那再來第二個政府應該要每4年就訂定一次青年政策白皮書就是說台灣這個國家對於青年的願景是什麼然後這個是有很明確的時程的這個時程安排非常重要所以這個白皮書的形成讓大家知道說在台灣的青年接下來可以政府會跟你有什麼樣的連結然後讓你有什麼樣的未來你都不用擔心這個也是非常重要所以每兩年要訂定國家青年發展的計畫"},{"start":3739.687,"end":3739.887,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3762.522,"end":3786.976,"text":"隔閡是非常重要的就是青年表達的聲音不是永遠在牆外而是進到牆內那大家可以表達自己的意見之後這個政策的形成就可以變成是有實質的效力的那其實很多國家已經都把青年的聲音具體的納入他的立法例裡面了那透過基本法或是專法的保障這些青年的基本權是現在國際上的人權趨勢那台灣也應該要重視例如說其實南韓2020年就有青年基本法了"},{"start":3791.058,"end":3809.396,"text":"那他們的這些青年政策的協調委員會讓青年表達意見的空間其實也都在他們的立法例裡面有納入那芬蘭也是一樣芬蘭非常早在1972年就已經有這個青年法然後他們其實裡面的那些規範也都非常成熟了大家也可以參考"},{"start":3810.397,"end":3833.542,"text":"最重要除了說納入青年聲音還要促進平等然後不要說有所謂的年齡歧視或是因為我自己是對於這個年齡歧視非常有感從25歲當議員到現在都還是會被說你真的太年輕了你沒有資格當這個身份所以我是對於青年納入政策這個是非常希望可以積極推動的讓青年不管你在什麼領域都可以做到自我實現"},{"start":3834.882,"end":3861.651,"text":"現在台灣確實就缺了一部這樣的法律因為沒有這個非常完整的規範所有青年事務的一個基本法那落實世代正義我覺得非常非常重要所以希望大家可以重視所謂的青年主流化那真正落實所謂的年齡的正義那希望大家一起在今天的公聽會後把這個共識拿出來然後加速的審議讓台灣的年輕人可以決定自己的未來謝謝"},{"start":3866.992,"end":3867.332,"text":"何秀蘭議員"},{"start":3881.58,"end":3898.544,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這樣子一個活動那我想說剛剛每個人就對於我們這個年齡的界定都有不同的一個想法不管是到底是到35歲以下或是以上我說實在的各位在聯合國的部分裡面為了配合所謂的AGE ING所謂的活躍老年他們甚至把這個青年的階段是設定在60歲左右"},{"start":3904.025,"end":3907.048,"text":"這也是一個相當非常是具有啟發性的但是以亞洲國家來說的話我想這樣一個說法當然就不符合所謂年輕朋友的一個界定但是我想"},{"start":3919.199,"end":3947.163,"text":"身心靈上只要具有青年的一個意識都可以共同來討論到底一個國家的政策如何來給青年更好的一個發展的一個方向那我想我們過去都聽過所謂的性別主流化文化主流化還有觀光主流化的一個政策那麼我國的政府也制定了相關的法規來推動但是呢只有這個青年主流化也就是比較是系統性的讓我們的青年來參與公共的事務來說而且最重要的各位"},{"start":3947.523,"end":3972.537,"text":"需要有個穩定的財源來推廣青年的業務那很顯然今天都沒有一個專屬的青年發展的法院的依據所以今天主席排這樣子的一個公聽會無非就是希望能夠為我們的青年基本法做好一個未來能夠立法的一個非常重要的一個依據不過我想在場只要是關心我們法案的不管是專家學者或是年輕朋友都知道"},{"start":3973.557,"end":3982.703,"text":"這個所謂的一個基本法就是一個宣示性的真正能夠落實到的我們應該著力更多的反而是在所謂的執法跟所謂的施行細則對吧但是呢你如果沒有一個母法通過的話這樣的執法跟施行的細則也是沒有辦法有一個根據的所以今天我們如果是要說所謂的一個母法一個基本法的話"},{"start":3998.894,"end":3999.214,"text":"立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":4018.353,"end":4019.034,"text":"《青年基本法草案》公聽會議"},{"start":4037.048,"end":4058.118,"text":"可以說是個性歧視嘛完全缺乏是以青年為主體還有長遠規劃性的一個政策嘛而且不是每一個縣市很多時候在選舉的時候他可能會設立青年局但你翻開所有的青年局他的一些經費可以說是各部會當中是最低的而且隨著每一年的政策的一個籌措他是會做一些的變動的所以當你提出來我們要讓民間來去做一個募款民間可以共同來以獎勵的方法來"},{"start":4064.861,"end":4064.881,"text":"財源規劃"},{"start":4079.718,"end":4080.518,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":4108.908,"end":4130.922,"text":"非常地給我們的召委一個非常好的一個應該給他拍拍手的啦那其實過去幾任的行政院長也都可以看出來對於制定專法這一件事情他們是採取比較是一個消極的態度嘛像你說第一任的林全我們回歸這個歷史他就是面對這個自家立委的這個青年發展法第一時間的反應我還記得他第一時間反應說"},{"start":4133.684,"end":4149.889,"text":"新政府不是已經推動了非常多青年政策了嗎但是他不知道青年政策是隨著你這個時候特別是不同的時空背景你可以提出來但是我們就是沒有一個法而曾經人院長也在今年初造開行政院的青年諮詢委員會的會議上說我們要請教育部清法署來繼續借盡國外的經驗來評估青年發展法的必要性"},{"start":4158.072,"end":4161.055,"text":"韓國在2020年早就通過《青年基本法》,而且17個都道府都已經完成《青少年基本條例》的一個制定,從地方到中央都是用青年主體,今天在場有非常多青年朋友。"},{"start":4179.116,"end":4179.616,"text":"韓國青年基本法草案公聽會"},{"start":4203.866,"end":4203.886,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4221.084,"end":4221.324,"text":"《青年基本法草案》公聽會議"},{"start":4249.309,"end":4250.43,"text":"公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會．立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":4264.582,"end":4264.722,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4286.312,"end":4303.812,"text":"立法必要性的一個回覆的話而且在520之前在蔡總統這麼重視年輕人這麼樣不能看到行政院版本《青年發展法》送進立法院的話我覺得任何的法送進立法院我覺得這才是教育部跟我們的目前的行政院給我們應該給年輕朋友一個最確切的一個交代謝謝"},{"start":4308.954,"end":4315.137,"text":"主席 還有各位委員還有我們在場的官員還有我們的同學 大家早安"},{"start":4330.337,"end":4352.96,"text":"我自己本身是研究學權的學權是我的專長還有校園的這個教育法那我看了這一個法律呢第一個我覺得要初步的要給他高度的肯定我們知道每一個時代有每一個時代的背景"},{"start":4353.741,"end":4381.397,"text":"每一個法律的立法一定有它的意旨比如說我們知道跟青年很有關係在求學的時代就是大學法大學法在民國94年底訂的時候修正的時候其實它要凸顯的一些像學生自治、校後參與、學生權利都進去了但是法律它在訂的時候畢竟它會有一些缺漏所以誠如剛剛前面兩位委員提的我們是堅定大的很多東西都要從實行細則來細部的"},{"start":4383.078,"end":4409.857,"text":"包括主管機關的一個制定所以像大學法裡面留了一個很大的尾巴這兩年吵得很兇的就是說類似像這一個學生委、學員委當然會員可是那個收費的問題就一直困擾那個就是所謂的母法訂了以後呢那執法要配套一定要一致才不會造成後面執行者的一個問題那再例如我們其實以前有教育基本法教育基本法88年訂定以後其實也蠻久了"},{"start":4410.157,"end":4436.834,"text":"可是它最關鍵的影響最深遠的卻是在民國97年第8條第15條的修改這個修正的它的條件進去了以後呢確立了我們台灣是地球上第109個這一個靈體法的一個國家我覺得這個影響就非常大所以一個基本法的一個訂定你不曉得它的未來影響多大但是它有時候可能中間的一個修法的過程裡面產生了對於整個台灣整個國家的一個影響"},{"start":4437.534,"end":4437.754,"text":"《青年基本法》公聽會議"},{"start":4456.699,"end":4474.915,"text":"青年 青年 兩個字其實在青年事務裡面有兩個階段第一個階段是大學階段第二個階段是他到社會的初階階段我為什麼稱他叫初階階段我們常講一個人我們常說三十而立所以如果以我們目前的比較多人的支持當然有同學提出來是15歲"},{"start":4475.856,"end":4501.255,"text":"到35歲這個我沒有特別意見我個人的建議是說就如果以現在來講的18當然18的定義可能是否這一個像我們去年112年1月1號民法已經定18歲成年了嘛對吧那我們一般對青少年的定義大概都在12到18大概我想他的初定是這樣子那這個18 18這個定義以後呢那青年他在大學的階段當然有他一個養成的階段那現在青年養成階段裡面所以這個法裡面"},{"start":4502.856,"end":4503.617,"text":"大學生缺乏的,也是格外重要的"},{"start":4518.65,"end":4543.315,"text":"所以學生權利不是說只要我喜歡就不可以它是建立在一種學習自由上的不管從學校的參與到社會的參與那培養他的責任感、軟實力那進入社會以後呢就是青年的第二個階段所以這邊青年事務就會跑到第二個階段來第二階段它所謂的這個自己的努力外那應該是說它的連結要連結到比如說整個社會或者整個政府企業讓青年有一個期待跟願景"},{"start":4544.575,"end":4545.536,"text":"新年期待願景"},{"start":4574.475,"end":4575.477,"text":"立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":4590.518,"end":4618.235,"text":"高中也不是不行啦15到18是高中當然現在很多的一個法令像高中法像很多像申訴的辦法很多我們在高中裡面都已經融入了很多的學權那事實上高中也是大學的預備所以如果要降低一些也是可以只是說現在高中這一塊的權利從大法官大學684到這一個高中的784解釋事實上這個部分呢在法的部分沒有問題那但是我們今天講的是基本法"},{"start":4618.715,"end":4645.841,"text":"所以不必然說一定要focus在高中或大學以上所以18到35或15到35其實都是可以再進一步討論的那青年日的部分我覺得這是一個揭示揭示什麼國家對於青年的重視很多國定的這一個部分都有做這種紀念所以我的建議是說我們紀念但是畢竟國家放假太多了如果這個也如果定了紀念日還要來加一個放假"},{"start":4646.161,"end":4646.201,"text":"主席"},{"start":4663.904,"end":4685.174,"text":"從過去到今天,從106年主改以後呢,我們知道青年的書分散到中央各個部位裡面確實沒有一個比較專責的單位那當然在整個國家制度上來講的話,我們也知道你要勉強弄一個所謂叫青年部或青年發展部,其實在現有的這個我相信中央的結構裡面是有它的困難"},{"start":4685.814,"end":4711.716,"text":"所以如何有機會讓它成為一個至少像一個委員會的一個部分這樣可以統合各個現有的等於是在各個單位裡面的一些青年事務把它統整起來才發揮它最大的功用那最後兩點就是說我想中央有青年的一個阻緩機關地方也有那我們過去來講因為中央這個部分散在太多地方了那地方的事務從桃園的這一個我印象很深桃園是第一個設青年局的"},{"start":4712.256,"end":4736.591,"text":"到今天很多至少在都會都大部分大都會都有設青年局那鄉下的部分就所謂縣市的部分或許還沒有設但是這個如果能夠讓各地來設這個所謂青年的局處那麼共同來推動我們青年的事務那我覺得這個是非常好的最後時代在變當然青年的一個部分要不要召開國事會議是不是定期我覺得每一個政黨"},{"start":4737.472,"end":4738.453,"text":"臺灣青年民主協會副理事長林思凱"},{"start":4768.271,"end":4791.866,"text":"好 各位主席還有委員在立法院的現場朋友大家好今天很開心有這個機會可以參與公聽會因為我們知道在今天的總統大選後政黨跟社會的各界都看到了青年的聲音也開始關注青年族群國民兩黨在近期都提出了對於青年一系列的黨務改革國民黨宣示說要青年化那成立數位黨部KMT Studio那結合青年部青年團"},{"start":4792.626,"end":4817.162,"text":"還有文傳會的新媒體部期待強化戰力那民進黨也將青年議題主流化視為今年最重要的發展方向要求各部會還有青年議題的規劃那除了國際部推出青年交流活動之外組織部也開始辦理青年的培力課程那民眾黨選後要宣布獨立成立青年部積極發展青年事務當我們在思考青年政策的同時過去往往會思考到高等教育青年就業還有居住正義"},{"start":4818.203,"end":4818.403,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4834.81,"end":4834.83,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4854.563,"end":4882.259,"text":"或是在教育讓青年自主規劃自己的生活跟教育方式所以我們更不能忽視的是青年的福利跟文化來優化青年生活最後是參與及權利讓青年的生活必須由青年來自己來決定簡單的說我們國家必須要讓堅固青年的發展與永續性結合青年的可見性讓青年才會參與而台少盟早在2017年就提出相較於兒童、少年、老年、身心障礙援助民族皆有專法的規定"},{"start":4882.839,"end":4891.443,"text":"提醒青年事務在各部會缺乏這個專責單位的機制我們理事長張玉蒙同時也是行政院的親職就曾在行政院青年諮詢委員會"},{"start":4901.067,"end":4928.569,"text":"提案《青年專法》立法過去第一屆的行政院青年諮詢委員會就曾提案重啟研擬青年發展法與整合協調相關政策的機制但功敗垂成過去的政策我們看到了台灣青年年齡混亂的議題除了青年基本法也應該提出青年發展指標檢視各部會的政策讓每年或每兩年檢視政策如何發展所以我們建議台灣應該要以青年分攬青年法為目標制定定期的"},{"start":4930.03,"end":4948.612,"text":"檢核機制跟國家青年會議每4年發布一次青年政策的方案所以我們研議的法案版本是根據青年基本法每4年擬定青年政策白皮書根據白皮書的內容政府每2年"},{"start":4950.38,"end":4951.141,"text":"《青年發展政策綱領》"},{"start":4972.436,"end":4986.526,"text":"明確的定義將定義在18歲以下為兒童及少年那我們的青年的定義就參考了行政院青年諮詢委員會與各部會的地方政府的青年諮詢代表的年齡上限以18至35歲作為青年定義的參考"},{"start":4986.886,"end":4987.467,"text":"青年基本法草案公聽會"},{"start":5008.528,"end":5029.046,"text":"設立達到系統性的強化青年參與及法院上有所依據並且成立專責機構單位來主責這個青年事務那接下來我想舉兩個例子說明在目前沒有一部青年專法還有青年專責機構單位台灣的青年政策遇到什麼問題第一個例子是動資券2022年底代理署長林騰嬌就承諾說要發放動資券"},{"start":5031.728,"end":5059.159,"text":"規劃6歲到12歲的學生都可以使用隔年3月初體育署副署長開記者會說動資券的規劃大概是以學籍從國小到大學都有包含他參加比賽或觀看比賽都可以算在內講完隔天體育署的運動產業及企業企劃署組長又改說以16歲到18歲的青少年為主變成只鎖定高中生所以許多國中小的學生錯愕說怎麼一天內從可以領到變到不能領那大學生更期待落空滿頭問號"},{"start":5060.379,"end":5089.025,"text":"所以D卡上面就有很多討論說大學生跟五專生跟高年級的學生就同學困惑說所以我們是這輩子都領不到嗎那體育署發放動資券我覺得是很讚的政策我舉雙手贊成但發放對象四個月內有三個說法且年齡規劃完全沒有一致的邏輯那學生一下領得到一下又領不到早從滿心期待變成算了還是乖乖念書就好沒有期待就沒有傷害所以第二個我想舉的例子是文化比我想在座有些青年朋友也都領過"},{"start":5090.425,"end":5117.145,"text":"這個相關的政策文化幣是去年開始發放的那也有類似的問題文化部發給年輕人1200元的文化幣可以買書可以看表演可以看國片其政策效果超好相較於2016年義大利透過手機軟體發給18歲的年輕人約新台幣16000元那註冊率大概只有6成西班牙發給18歲的年輕人超過1萬元的文化禮金那也只有5成的使用率相較之下台灣發文化幣8年"},{"start":5117.745,"end":5119.026,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":5139.205,"end":5140.086,"text":"政策效果其實都不差"},{"start":5156.457,"end":5169.872,"text":"甚至可以說很亮眼但是我舉這兩個例子就是利益良善但缺乏統整所以需要一個專屬於青年的專責機構希望可以提升到青年部或是行政院的青年委員會並在行政院設青年事務會報定期召開青年國師會議"},{"start":5171.534,"end":5198.766,"text":"那放眼台灣的各級政府的青年政策我們可以很明顯的看到現今的青年政策散落在各部會沒有辦法通盤檢視那最大的原因就是因為沒有一個專責青年政策的部會那中央跟地方政府的組織架構裡面就應該有主管的部會這樣才能落實與協調各種青年政策事實上台灣不是沒有青年政策而是暫住在各部會包括教育部、國發會、內政部、經濟部等那這些臨場化的結果就是沒有將"},{"start":5200.026,"end":5200.166,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5230.907,"end":5258.761,"text":"那許多地方政府就認為說那青年政策就只有職業訓練那就沒有其他的青年政策了那所以我國的地方政府的青年政策就被硬生生的切成兩塊一部分是教育部跟相關局處那另外一部分就是相關的教育的職業訓練所以青年基本法我想說最後想說青年是一個隨著時間改變的身份那我們始終都不會是青年那我也相信透過這個法制的基礎搭配其他的配套措施那讓確保青年能夠在這個"},{"start":5259.801,"end":5284.997,"text":"政策制度中與核心決策者一同討論所以青年基本法的制定是青年主流化的最後一塊平土那也讓政府在政策制定中制度性的納入青年的聲音讓青年的聲音不再是邊緣謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請葛如君委員那再來是陳金輝委員請準備好 謝謝"},{"start":5296.327,"end":5314.423,"text":"謝謝昭偉安排今天的公聽會也感謝出席與會的專家、學者以及所有的青年朋友們青年是國家的未來也是希望青年是推動社會進步和發展的重要力量、原動力"},{"start":5315.618,"end":5331.485,"text":"青年時期更是價值觀、人生觀、世界觀形成的重要階段每個人都只有一次的機會與青年相關的政策涵蓋面向非常多元在這個快速變化的數位時代裡頭"},{"start":5333.007,"end":5359.675,"text":"國家的政策應該要如何陪伴青年們融入社會安居樂業為他們提供發揮影響力的機會這個是我們都要一起共同努力的方向也應該不分黨派接下來我們也會提出青年基本法草案的版本並將涵蓋以下幾個重點基於第一基於醫療科技的進步人口高齡化的趨勢平均餘命其實是越來越長的"},{"start":5361.516,"end":5389.028,"text":"民國元年的時候男性平均餘命是35歲女性39歲民國40年男性平均餘命是53歲女性56歲到了民國80年到110年的時候我們全國國人的平均餘命將近80歲接下來可能還會越來越高在可以見到的未來之下我們的平均餘命勢必還會持續的延長而且會越來越長"},{"start":5390.612,"end":5415.108,"text":"我從常常開玩笑說我可能會活到120歲現在在場的年輕人、青年朋友可能還會活到150或200歲大家都要去思考接下來更長的時間裡我們要做什麼所以在許多國家思考退休年齡延後的同時青年的定義也許也可以有更多的討論因此我的版本也將思考提高青年定義的年齡標準以因應未來社會的轉變"},{"start":5416.249,"end":5432.522,"text":"同時在元宇宙時代在AI時代之下有更多的人在虛擬世界裡頭也回復成青年在AI面前有更多的人也成為再次成為學生所以我相信青年定義的標準也應該隨著時代來討論"},{"start":5435.438,"end":5452.681,"text":"第二點,草案當中除了包括教育環境、舊創業、健康、居住等面向以外,針對數位科技的快速發展,我們也會提出AI青年、文化青年等概念,比如說我們希望能夠將青年數位平權的理念納入,"},{"start":5453.88,"end":5454.14,"text":"委員會：完整會議"},{"start":5483.92,"end":5512.202,"text":"第三點 青年公共政策的參與部分我認為政府應該積極的為青年來建立參與公共事務的管道以外也應該要持續的給予賠利的機制讓有意願參與的青年能夠找到資源 取得資源並且在運用資源以後有機會再更進一步的回饋給社會讓社會在正循環當中一步一步的向前邁進讓我們的公眾參與的平均年齡可以持續的降低"},{"start":5519.082,"end":5546.754,"text":"近年來其實我們已經可以看到有非常非常多的這種事情正在發生有越來越多的青年人投入進一步的回饋給社會那我們國民黨近來也成立了數位黨部KMT Studio就是一個案例我們期待可以透過Studio這樣的一個平台把更多的創新科技AI的知識傳遞給更多人期待跟更多的青年朋友一起參與一起學習那第4點根據青年署的網站資料顯示"},{"start":5548.206,"end":5570.384,"text":"目前受有青年局的縣市僅有臺北市、新北市、桃園市、彰化縣與高雄市其他縣市將青年發展的業務組織單位放在不同的體系之下例如教育局、勞動局、社會局、產業發展局甚至研考會這也凸顯青年政策的面向相當的多元實在需要跨部會的協調統籌"},{"start":5572.839,"end":5596.809,"text":"此外,有鑒於現行青年法案署屬於三級機關對於跨部會的事宜顯然不一定能夠達到跨部會、跨層級的協調整合溝通因此我們的版本也將設置行政院層級的青年事務協調匯報以提高未來青年政策跨領域、跨部會的執行效益"},{"start":5597.549,"end":5617.748,"text":"在這一點上我相信AI的影響也會是非常非常的重要科技的影響也會非常非常的重要而且會是跨部會發生 跨層級的發生當他們正在跨部會 跨層級的影響著我們的青年未來發展的同時"},{"start":5618.809,"end":5627.651,"text":"我們的相關的部會的成績單位當然也必須要跟著一起跨部會跨成績的來為青年朋友做努力"},{"start":5629.144,"end":5650.15,"text":"最後我想要說的是引用愛因斯坦曾經說過的一句話每個人都是天才但如果你用爬樹的能力來評斷一條魚他終將終其一生的覺得自己是個笨蛋今天教育部的書院報告也說青年是國家發展的重要角色也是推動社會發展的重要力量"},{"start":5651.369,"end":5667.717,"text":"對於國家未來有極高的重要性因此我們期待可以透過《青年基本法》的法制高度由政府建構各個面向的整合性支持陪伴青年們找到每個人獨特的熱情和天賦"},{"start":5668.957,"end":5697.899,"text":"在接下來這個科技的浪潮襲來AI甚至不只是浪潮而是海嘯襲來的這個時代接下來還有更多的新興的科技包含機器人包含腦機介面包含量子電腦這些新的影響都可能滲透深入到我們社會生活青年成長環節當中的每一個層面我們期待這些都會是正面的影響"},{"start":5698.9,"end":5713.812,"text":"而不是負面的破壞我們作為政府的部會應該要讓青年在國家政策的支持下茁壯帶領國家一起邁向更未來的願景以上是我的想法 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝葛如君委員那我們接下來請陳清輝委員那也請周家瑋準備 謝謝"},{"start":5727.472,"end":5741.662,"text":"各位委員 主席還有官員以及我們在場的許許多多青年代表大家早安 大家好我是陳金輝委員我的專業是醫學不孕症還有公共衛生所以我先說結論"},{"start":5743.863,"end":5764.112,"text":"對我的專業而言我會在這個青年基本法裡面表達我的想法主要是關於我輔導過非常多的不同性傾向的青年而且協助他們比如說生育的問題或者是性別友善門診等等的所以多元共榮是確實的落實在我的政策提案以及日常生活中"},{"start":5764.952,"end":5786.945,"text":"再者我有發現全球青少年及青年的憂鬱症自殺率是以很快的速度節節升高對比我們其他年齡的族群因此我也非常關心我們的心理健康最後我會提到我們希望青年在所有的政策以及政策主體面主流化"},{"start":5788.506,"end":5810.744,"text":"為什麼對青年有這麼多想法是因為我除了是醫師是立法委員也是一個三寶嗎所以我非常非常關心年輕人長大後的未來同時我也曾經年輕過所以在過去讀書升學工作日子的經歷我甚至有許許多多的擔憂還有在生命時期不同時期會面對到的困境"},{"start":5811.525,"end":5840.076,"text":"所以今天我會一一的表達我對青年基本法的一些想法首先剛提到我最重視的是心理健康因為我知道在這個時代呢沒有時間也沒有地域限制的人際關係其實會引起非常大的困擾我自己的小孩就曾經對我說他們在玩線上遊戲的時候是看到互相排擠等等網路霸凌的情形那我也在旁邊協助他們可以快速的茁壯自己的心靈"},{"start":5841.216,"end":5854.893,"text":"隨著剛剛提到的AI網路世代等等到來現代這一輩的孩子們在面對比我們以前更多樣而且複雜的環境所以隨之而來增加的心理健康風險是現在沒有辦法估計的"},{"start":5858.177,"end":5887.049,"text":"前陣子學生輔導法的公聽會時我就已經曾經特別呼籲要重視青年世代的心理健康問題我們看到這些抗憂鬱的藥物使用人數是逐年以10萬的急劇在上升年輕族群在衛福部提供的自殺防治安心專線的使用上光是憂鬱傾向還有他的人際關係家庭困擾就佔了七成可見呢我國國人的心理健康需要政府"},{"start":5887.329,"end":5887.389,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5907.344,"end":5920.778,"text":"在先前學生輔導法的公聽會我就有討論到光是我們學校端所提供的情緒教育、諮商服務等等的沒有辦法給青年世代相對應的心理支持更沒有養成我們對於情緒生命的應變能力"},{"start":5924.381,"end":5941.304,"text":"所以出了社會之後青年們面對的是更大的挑戰是學習與工作階段的轉換生活模式的改變還有與變動隨時而來極大心理壓力這都不是目前我們看到教育體系可以為我們的青年所做好準備的"},{"start":5942.245,"end":5964.443,"text":"在校園上有安全網但我希望看到政府對於出社會的青年世代持續的支持不讓這些國家的未來獨自的掉落而是接住支持每一位青年所以我個人非常重視的是青年基本法裡面一定要訂定政府對青年的心理健康照護明確的列為優先照護事項"},{"start":5966.405,"end":5989.556,"text":"除此以外更要從其他生活的面向一起努力比如大家常常提及的落實居住正義不要負擔如此沉重的房價還有就學上應該如何適性學習後續應該要如何接軌就業等等都是未來一起努力的方向才可以在這個最具變動不確定性還有壓力的生命階段有所支持"},{"start":5990.814,"end":5993.255,"text":"借用一下性別主流化的概念我們常常說要讓各個族群有足夠的比例代表所以未來確保各個族群間的差異被看見而且可以呈現出來"},{"start":6006.383,"end":6027.073,"text":"反過來說青年主流化也是如此所以目前政府的任何政策都關乎未來而青年就代表了未來所以政策與青年息息相關我們未來的政策也理當要有足夠的青年代表才能確保要從你們的視角去落實達成青年主流化"},{"start":6027.873,"end":6052.034,"text":"但有一點令我擔心的是在這個新政府即將就任的時候之前呢他曾經承諾三分之一的女性內閣首長比例至今我們遲遲還沒看到有實現這也是當初性別主流化沒有強制難以落實的問題所以我也為我們未來不管是性別平等以及這個青年平等感到擔憂"},{"start":6053.155,"end":6080.414,"text":"但同時我們一定要藉由這次的機會來展望青年主流化未來的落實所以我認為在青年基本法的制定階段針對各級政府的參與決策一定要有發聲的空間光是看到青年基本法草案聯合國發展權宣言就可以看到我們的照顧的面向是多元複雜的我們希望政府從各個方面都可以照顧到這個需求如果就"},{"start":6080.874,"end":6082.295,"text":"政府的施政才能看到需求照顧我們國家的未來"},{"start":6096.064,"end":6111.245,"text":"最後我想提到的是不只我們在場各位都曾經年輕過知道青春裡面的種種掙扎但現在這個世界非常的複雜所以我們一定要投注更多的資源來協助青年"},{"start":6112.006,"end":6113.466,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員我們接下來就請周家維好辦設計共同創辦的經營委員長"},{"start":6141.974,"end":6142.674,"text":"邱家偉 台中"},{"start":6159.284,"end":6176.687,"text":"我本身也是第4屆行政院青年諮詢委員會的副召集人因為有這個機會所以我可以跟蠻多優秀的青年討論政策然後也會因為這樣高雄中央各部會有過一些交流所以我今天就針對這些經驗來跟今天基本法的幾個題目發表一下我的意見"},{"start":6177.708,"end":6193.962,"text":"首先是年齡的部分我覺得下限好像比較清楚因為其實我們現在在兒童或是少年都要比較明確在18歲以下12歲以下有一些定義那在成年就是民法成年通過之後我覺得18歲開始起算成年是一個就是可以理解的就是數字"},{"start":6195.063,"end":6208.735,"text":"但上限的部分我就有一些想法想談年齡是一個客觀條件它在各項法規或是施政上會比較好適用但其實我們在看誰是青年的時候應該要從他的生命經驗尤其是在臺灣的成長脈絡因為大家長到一樣的歲數臺灣人跟外國人不一定會長到一樣的狀態所以要去考慮臺灣人的成長脈絡不管在教育"},{"start":6217.822,"end":6218.002,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":6232.941,"end":6260.71,"text":"好的成年人的這個過程那什麼是好的成年人可能包含他能不能負責任不管自己的責任其他人的責任那他能不能就是具備生活或者是一定有的專業的知識那他能不能有經濟獨立能夠在這個社會上活著的這些能力那甚至他可能隨著他成長的階段要去處理不同的人際關係甚至家庭關係照顧關係等等這個都是我們在人生階生命階段的時候會遇到一些問題"},{"start":6261.73,"end":6280.131,"text":"所以18到24歲其實陳如前面幾位專家夥伴提到的其實這個階段大部分以台灣來講都是在學校的階段那從25歲出了社會那大家可能都有相同的經驗就是你出社會其實才剛開始面向這個就是社會上的各種"},{"start":6280.692,"end":6288.896,"text":"各種人情世故你可能開始經濟獨立那你因為經濟獨立而開始學會掌控自己的生活因為你知道你可以住哪裡你可以買什麼那所以可能出社會後三五年我們也都還在成長我們也都還在知道怎麼成為一個負責任的成年人所以因此我自己覺得25歲到35歲這個階段以我現在這個年紀然後我可能已經結婚可是還沒有生小孩"},{"start":6306.483,"end":6307.223,"text":"《青年基本法草案》公聽會"},{"start":6328.212,"end":6328.532,"text":"韓國方式調整適用年紀"},{"start":6353.252,"end":6368.771,"text":"據我自己工作上的經驗就是有參與國發會跟地方創生相關的行動那國發會在鼓勵青年投入一些地方行動的時候他的資格是設定在25歲到45歲那這就是因為在地方工作的屬性上面他會有這樣子的就是特點"},{"start":6369.352,"end":6369.872,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6394.397,"end":6403.063,"text":"規則或是執法行動可以有調整的空間但可能也要斟酌一下會不會開放了這個門反而就跟現況可能沒有什麼太大的差別這個是要斟酌考慮的"},{"start":6405.1,"end":6431.373,"text":"那在新設機關的部分其實我覺得跟今天前面發表的夥伴跟委員都意見蠻相同其實我們是有專責單位就是教育部青年署所以關鍵並不是專責單位而是這個專責單位他在多少的全級可能我自己覺得至少在二級機關以上讓他有足夠可以跟各部會對話的就是一個空間那除了就是整合就是青年政策之外我覺得在院青資的這個身份上面我們也看到"},{"start":6431.853,"end":6445.739,"text":"各個部會都一定會有他的青年政策而且他會有他的專業去提出的青年政策那但有些時候部會要管的群眾0到99歲實在太大了那青年如果我們認為青年的特殊性其實是他變動性很高然後他的可塑性高"},{"start":6448.22,"end":6474.015,"text":"他可能在那個階段受到權力結構的影響也相對比較少所以白話文就是青年的可能性大包袱也少的話那其實他是有很多很多面向未來的一些可能性所以有一些草案也有提到要有青年的專責研究機構部會各部會是沒有空間跟預算跟時間去研究青年的但是青年的專責單位可以做到但他們要有足夠的資源跟人力"},{"start":6474.515,"end":6486.008,"text":"所以我覺得二級級以上的青年專責單位是一個必要他也才能做到青年的研究然後把我們對於青年想要進一步怎麼在這個社會怎麼貢獻會有一些他們的想法"},{"start":6489.512,"end":6513.473,"text":"這也會到第三個,就是跟地方政府的連結會有關我覺得要有足夠高度的青年專責單位他才有足夠的裁員、人手、研究跟立場能夠跟所有的地方政府的青年專責單位的窗口來做更好的溝通現在青年署他們已經有全國的青年諮詢交流會那當然因為預算的限制、規模的限制我們現在已經在用很少的人力想辦法在兩天之內讓"},{"start":6515.214,"end":6539.266,"text":"全國的親資不管是中央或是地方有很好的一些議題的討論但我們現在可能只能做到這樣未來在中央跟地方它比較是知性模式上面的深入的討論包含提案的方式親資參與的方式能不能有更好的做法因為並不是參與在會議或是它有列代表的這個名額就算有青年的參與這個模式是可以中央跟地方有更多的交流跟討論"},{"start":6540.306,"end":6555.012,"text":"包含議題的串聯,如果中央有社會住宅的政策,那地方各個地方怎麼討論住宅的政策,這個都是可以透過親知,不管是地方或是中央共同來交流討論。最後我想跟大家分享,就是我們在一次院親知的提案場合跟院長討論,"},{"start":6556.713,"end":6582.13,"text":"因為我們有一些根據環境氣候的一些提案然後那時候各部會在回應的時候他們的簡報第一點通常都會是根據氣候變遷因應法等等所有人都是這個母法在講所以我那時候就開玩笑說所以我們在討論青年政策的時候母法真的很重要因為大家都會用這個方式來做推動希望我們有一個好好的基本法然後接下來也有青年的政策綱領子計劃等等可以有一個更好的青年的未來謝謝大家"},{"start":6585.255,"end":6585.455,"text":"佩穎委員"},{"start":6598.976,"end":6617.324,"text":"主席 各位專家學者 大家好我今天代表台灣民眾黨提出兩點主張第一點 我們支持青年基本法應該盡速立法 全面提升青年的權益及發展"},{"start":6618.516,"end":6646.557,"text":"青年是社會的重要組成部分擁有自己的權益和需求制定青年基本法可以明確規定青年的基本權利例如教育權、就業權、參政權等並且加強對這些權益的保障從而促進青年的健康成長和全面的發展基本法可以從多元面向來完成青年族群的權益"},{"start":6649.162,"end":6670.98,"text":"第一點是促進青年的發展青年是國家的未來和希望他們的成長和發展對國家的長遠發展至關重要促進青年基本法可以為青年提供更好的教育就業參與公共事務和成長的機會進而促進青年的個人發展和社會貢獻"},{"start":6672.381,"end":6692.03,"text":"第二點是可以促進社會的穩定青年是社會的穩定因素他們的發展狀況直接影響到社會的穩定和發展制定青年基本法可以促進青年的就業和社會參與綜合增強社會的凝聚力和穩定的力量所以整體而看"},{"start":6692.89,"end":6718.808,"text":"透過《青年基本法》是為了保障青年的權益促進青年的發展進而促進社會的穩定和持續的發展確實有其立法的必要也希望行政院能夠儘速地提出相關的草案凝聚各界的共識讓立法院可以就實體的內容進行審查早日完成《青年基本法》的立法工程第二點表達的是"},{"start":6720.171,"end":6736.007,"text":"基本法是引導國家政策方向和相關法令的制定基本方針和原則,透過制定專法落實權益的保障,並確保國家對於正確的政策不會因為人去政息。"},{"start":6737.168,"end":6764.356,"text":"基本法是引導國家政策方向及相關法令的制定基本方針及原則是國家看待及推動族群議題應該遵循的指標及義務因此今天為什麼我們需要透過立法的方式來達成也是希望能夠透過基本法的制定能夠讓政策可以不會因為執政者的考量而有所更迭另外我們也認為"},{"start":6765.296,"end":6792.188,"text":"在兩件事情上面未來無論是什麼樣的基本法都應該要納入第一是政策的白皮書並建立檢討修正的機制讓政策能夠與時俱進第二點建立中央的專責單位統籌協調各部會的任務及跨部會的分工讓基本法的原則能夠被各個部會遵循"},{"start":6792.908,"end":6795.811,"text":"並且有效的互相協作 以上"},{"start":6811.187,"end":6818.094,"text":"謝謝主席還有今天在場的我們本會的委員還有來自民間的各位專家學者代表大家今天在場都是非常的關心我們青年基本法的草案以及我們台灣這個國家對青年我們究竟要具有什麼樣的定位那我們的政府要提供怎麼樣的支持那首先我是非常的高興"},{"start":6834.751,"end":6843.736,"text":"這一次的討論裡面我們有來自於不同政黨的這個草案的提案因為有記得在2016年我們行政院首先要創設青年諮詢委員會的時候其實當時呢也是有受到在野黨的反對當時的反對理由是說呢認為這個為什麼還要設一個新的機關呢甚至說這個叫做黑機關然後說讓這些人來擔任"},{"start":6859.224,"end":6864.206,"text":"親資委員是讓他們來混名聲的認為說本來行政院就有政務委員可以做跨部會的協調了為什麼要創設新的機關那感謝也來自於社會各界的支持其實這些年來我們行政院親資委員會的運作其實讓我們看到了確實也許大家對於新的還沒有發生的事情會恐懼會害怕因為你不知道它是什麼"},{"start":6882.014,"end":6896.933,"text":"但當你看到它實際上的運作裡我們真的確實像這幾年來包括我們的心理健康支持方案我們的社會創新計畫例如說我們在校園裡面開始免費提供生理用品這些提案都是來自於行政院親自委員會我們的委員們經過充分的討論"},{"start":6901.138,"end":6908.384,"text":"有一個初始的想法出來那由我們行政院長來主持這樣的會議那召集各個部會因為他可能涉及到不同部會主責的權責不同的預算等等那最後提出是可行的方案我覺得這是一個很好的實踐的成果跟參考那也更加提醒我們青年基本法是刻不容緩也許一個新的法案要提出的時候我相信永悅"},{"start":6927.878,"end":6927.978,"text":"中央部會"},{"start":6947.857,"end":6952.819,"text":"甚至開始有縣級的行政院親自委員會的運作都應該讓我們可以看到確實台灣就是需要青年基本法我們需要從法源的依據開始讓我們的目標也就是我們不只要有一個青年的專責機關我們現在已經有那它是要來提升等級或是做裡面相關權責的這個調整"},{"start":6971.507,"end":6994.903,"text":"這個我認為就在這次的公聽會裡面以及很多次的跟公民團體的溝通都是我們可以來作為參考以外其實我們更加重要的目標是青年主流化如同過去我們在做文化主流化的時候曾經有一句話叫做應該步步都是文化步今天我們希望其實應該步步都是青年步我舉一個例子來說因為我們是教育委員會"},{"start":6995.783,"end":7020.497,"text":"所以我們在監督的是包括教育部跟文化部前陣子我們在討論一個議題是臺灣的獨立書店正在凋零那文化部有相關的計畫是希望讓支持這個獨立書店可以進到社區裡面如果社區來提案有一個微型的這個行動計畫那能夠來文化部可以來予以補助讓這個社區的資源能夠一起來支持這一家獨立書店"},{"start":7021.617,"end":7025.381,"text":"這個書店也不只是賣書它甚至是在我們社區裡面的一個圍形的據點那像這樣子的計畫如果我們從青年的視角出發呢因為我們其實獨立書店很多的消費者平常在這個空間裡面運用這個空間的人很多就是我們青年族群"},{"start":7038.992,"end":7062.743,"text":"但是倘若我們完全只以一個機關的本位來思考這樣的政策時常就會忽略掉了青年的視野而忽略到青年的視野其實是我們的損失不只是要照顧青年的權益從青年的視角出發時常可以給我們在公共的政策上面一個新的視角讓我們可以有更多的這個觸角進入到這個社會裡面所以我覺得這一點是非常重要的就是我們講的青年的主流化"},{"start":7068.266,"end":7092.771,"text":"所以為什麼我們需要青年的基本法因為倘若沒有法源的依據所有的這個理想都可能只是一個口號那過去我在臺北市議會所以我們從我的第一個任期2018年進去開始由臺北市議會就開始在倡議說臺北市應該要設立青年局尤其我們看到六都裡面桃園市首先設立青年局的再來高雄市也成立了那我在擔任這個"},{"start":7094.671,"end":7094.851,"text":"市議會召集委員"},{"start":7124.551,"end":7126.751,"text":"國際交流相關的計劃 它過去就在教育局裡面有關於青年的教育 過去就在勞動局裡面"},{"start":7149.756,"end":7153.279,"text":"但是現在我們要把這些關於青年的業務閃在各個局處裡面把它通通抽出來但是要有邏輯的然後要有行政這個原則的去把它重新的編制然後放置在青年局裡面這個其實在討論的過程就有非常多不同的意見"},{"start":7169.594,"end":7170.335,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7191.59,"end":7191.81,"text":"第12條及第13條"},{"start":7213.624,"end":7213.644,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7231.792,"end":7255.45,"text":"必須要寬列新年事務的預算因為倘若我們只有專責單位而沒有預算的支持的話這些也會形同虛設所以我要再次的感謝今天我們召委來排青年基本法的公聽會那我也希望我們不分黨派的成員能夠秉持於支持青年的立場排除掉政治的旗艦一起來支持青年基本法的制定謝謝"},{"start":7257.927,"end":7264.918,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝吳佩儀委員接下來我們請林月琴委員月琴委員發言完 我們就休息5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7271.154,"end":7290.165,"text":"主席、各位與會先進今天同樣要感謝我們的議警召委能夠安排這樣的一個公聽會邀請我們關心的專業學者跟我們的青年朋友跟公民團體我過去來自民間我大概30年都在做兒童跟少年的工作"},{"start":7290.845,"end":7300.712,"text":"目前還是擔任台灣少年促進權益聯盟的理事長所以我覺得青年的聲音真的事實上是不容忽視下一頁"},{"start":7302.284,"end":7327.669,"text":"所以我關心四大議題也就是說薪資還有居住跟物價跟我們的身心健康下一頁那我們看到事實上我們的青年事實上是叫做法律的邊緣人透明人法律上的透明人也就是說事實上兒少權法的確我們的特殊法會對於定兒少權法老人福利法跟生權法可是我們可以看到這個定義的兒童"},{"start":7329.349,"end":7329.77,"text":"《青年基本法草案》公聽會議"},{"start":7345.487,"end":7345.667,"text":"主席"},{"start":7372.567,"end":7372.988,"text":"委員會：完整"},{"start":7399.406,"end":7400.667,"text":"《青年基本法草案》公聽會議"},{"start":7420.865,"end":7420.885,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7451.929,"end":7455.452,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7476.071,"end":7476.531,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":7503.541,"end":7503.601,"text":"主席"},{"start":7521.048,"end":7543.493,"text":"居住平均房價是年輕家庭所得的9.7倍如果預售屋放進來一起看的話大概超過12倍台北市不用講了台北市是年輕家庭所得的20倍根本就是很難買房可是保障青年享有一個安全"},{"start":7544.213,"end":7544.453,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":7573.995,"end":7574.235,"text":"主席"},{"start":7592.78,"end":7611.58,"text":"更重要的是目前我看到臺灣的交通造成我們18到24歲的死傷是非常的高那另外一個議題就是15歲到24歲自殺已經躍升到第二名我們政府應該去掌握青年的健康"},{"start":7612.878,"end":7613.578,"text":"無法根本,執法要跟得上"},{"start":7642.088,"end":7642.248,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7653.274,"end":7653.414,"text":"委員會：完整會議"},{"start":7676.161,"end":7703.463,"text":"因為目前聯合國的世界青年行動綱領的青年定義是15到25歲我們青年屬是15歲到35歲那青年局呢我們桃園跟新北高雄的青年局有15到24也有15到35的那其他國家呢事實上歐盟的話13到30都有那美國是25到25歲以下那大概最後我們還是期待如果這定出來我們還是希望要有政策白皮書"},{"start":7704.534,"end":7709.599,"text":"三年或五年一定要有政策排比書來說明相關的政策的對應以上 謝謝"},{"start":7736.601,"end":7740.667,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8099.48,"end":8099.84,"text":"黃佩琪委員徐志遠委員"},{"start":8115.938,"end":8122.583,"text":"各位與會先進大家好我是青年發展署青資小組的委員黃珮淇這邊想說就針對討論提供一點去做討論第一個是年齡的部分我有去收集身邊青資的經驗無論是地方或者是中央的"},{"start":8131.65,"end":8140.772,"text":"其實會發現各縣市政府對於青年的想像或者是他們想要處理的業務有不一樣的期待然後前面也有先進提到說覺得應該從15歲開始去認定青年但這邊我們就要思考的是我們的這個法的照顧對象到底有沒有需要到重複就是它既是兒童權利保障法"},{"start":8151.215,"end":8151.355,"text":"中央部會的親資遴選年齡"},{"start":8178.08,"end":8178.22,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8205.795,"end":8230.363,"text":"《青年屬變成委員會的方式》例如克委會、園民會、行政院所屬的二級機關更好地去做溝通協調尤其台灣的台灣不是沒有青年政策而是青年政策是分布在各個部會裡面的所以我們國會期待無論是將青發屬變成青年委員會或者是我們另外成立一個青年委員會都期待這個委員會是可以"},{"start":8230.643,"end":8232.825,"text":"各縣市對於青年事務的想像不一樣,以至於有的縣市是勞工或勞動及少年發展處的其中一個青年發展科"},{"start":8250.416,"end":8250.736,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8267.851,"end":8267.991,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8286.878,"end":8310.615,"text":"就是工作會議我們去了解不同地區的青年需求找出青年不同地區的需求困境然後以更好的去做資源分配以及整合然後關於這樣的白皮書我們認為應該每兩年要提出一次政策白皮書又或者是青年政策工作彙報然後不只是在院或者是府裡面被討論而是應該要拿到我們的全國親資大會讓大家可以一起去做討論以及審議獎"},{"start":8316.078,"end":8338.324,"text":"關於青年基本法的立法內容我們覺得應該要包括青年的公共參與青年創業以及弱勢青年輔助等等的相關條文然後其中其實也特別想要提到關於青年的學習資源這件事因為現在其實我們講求的是跨領域各個院校也在成立關於像是不分系這樣的科系會希望"},{"start":8338.764,"end":8357.028,"text":"未來可以有更多人是擁有不同的能力可以去解決問題所以在想關於青年他如果想要學習新技能的時候政府能不能給予他支持以及在兒童權利公約裡面其實有提到兒童的遊戲權是很重要的人權指標但好像這也是台灣的課綱裡面很主要的議題之一但好像到成年之後大家就"},{"start":8369.777,"end":8381.993,"text":"政府可以更重視青年的創科教育推廣以及我剛剛提所提到的其他他們如果想要學習新技能的這種學習資源這樣子"},{"start":8383.454,"end":8391.557,"text":"另外其實也會想要提到說在立法的過程又或者是我們在討論過程中應該要要知道就是我們從一個兒少18歲以下變到18歲我們變成青年了這是一瞬間一天的事情我們不會因為我們變成了18歲我們就已經準備好成為一個青年大家能不能看到兒少這中間的過渡期以及剛剛前面林月琴委員其實有提到很重要的部分是他可能是剛從教養"},{"start":8411.664,"end":8411.684,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8421.977,"end":8423.378,"text":"謝謝黃沛琦委員接下來請政大學生會會長徐志遠也請葉元芝委員準備"},{"start":8455.772,"end":8456.053,"text":"現任政大學生會會長許志遠"},{"start":8470.472,"end":8493.16,"text":"行政院親資委員會所定義的18到35歲標準在國民黨林德福委員所提出的版本則是參照104年的青年發展政策綱領所指出的15歲到35歲還有剛才許多代表提出的一個年齡範圍為對象其實我覺得無論是哪個版本其實都包含所謂的學生青年以及社會青年這兩個部分"},{"start":8494.48,"end":8502.635,"text":"那因為我現在的代表應該是政大的學生會那我也在就讀大學那我就先就 主要就學生青年的部分作為論述"},{"start":8504.44,"end":8527.77,"text":"那我認為青年基本法的一個立法精神在青年的公共參與上應該是一個很重要的部分我從大一到現在都參與著學生自治很多人可能認為學生自治是個社團活動半家家酒或者是很少人在玩的一個東西然後進而可能將學生會乃至於學生甚至青年這個群體去幼體化"},{"start":8528.81,"end":8548.115,"text":"認為他們太年輕沒有經驗什麼都做不到或者是說不具代表性那為什麼會這個樣子呢那學生會參與率年年降低然後投票率也很低校內投票率很低反映出了其實整個青年的群體對於公共事務其實是很無力甚至對於現狀可能是不信任的"},{"start":8548.795,"end":8574.74,"text":"那前陣子臺北大學的這個校長關麥事件還有副校長的這個疑似借選的這個事件也可以做一個引信表示說其實這個青年的群體學生群體是弱勢的或也許是出於這個社會風氣或是文化社會文化的因素那這整個世代在參與公共事務上其實是被打壓甚至是不太能去表達自我或是被貼上負面標籤的"},{"start":8575.7,"end":8600.648,"text":"那當然這不只是發生在校園內,而是整個青年群體都有這樣的狀況那在少子化加劇,然後18歲公民權也未能通過的一個狀況下那我想青年其實是深深的很憂慮著自身的量能不足以去跟其他事態或是群體互相比較或者是抗衡那這些因素也持續衝擊著現在已經現況不佳的這個公共參與,青年的公共參與的部分"},{"start":8601.928,"end":8622.497,"text":"青年其實是整個國家跟社會的未來那若整個國家社會的環境還有政策對青年沒有一個基本的保障那執政當局或是社會中間的世代又怎麼說能夠好好的擔起掌舵者角色因此基於這樣的論述我認為青年的影響力的提升是非常有必要的那當然"},{"start":8623.337,"end":8645.397,"text":"制定一部所謂的青年群體為主要對象的一個法規也是必要的那以此才能提升青年的一些相關的事務的參與那翻轉這樣的困境才有利於社會的發展那在各級的政府機關中納入一定的青年代表出席在政府及制定政策的時候才能確實的納入青年的聲音"},{"start":8646.198,"end":8670.711,"text":"但很多地方的政府其實都有青年局、青資委員會或是兒少諮詢代表等等的一些青年相關的一些諮詢機關來處理青年業務或者是作為一個政策諮詢的組織或角色那不過即便如此好像看起來好像青年的一些相關事務已經得到保障了但是我們正是缺乏了一部母法去管理、去規範"},{"start":8672.512,"end":8697.38,"text":"如果有這部母法存在,我們就更能確保說每個地區的政府能納入這些代表甚至應該要保障一定的席次,如果看到一些版本裡可能是三分之一或是二分之一甚至更多的這個青年代表在這些委員會或是機關裡面那我也認為說其實青年機關除了這些專責的委員會或是組織之外也能夠納入所有的這些政府的一些相關的一些部門"},{"start":8698.792,"end":8726.84,"text":"如果說每個局處或是政府這些機關本身在做出這些政策的時候都能夠納入青年的聲音都能夠考量到青年聲音那就更好了如果說若僅有青年的專責單位而不將青年的政策主流化或是青年議題主流化落實於各個部門單位並建立跨部門的機制不免會有這些青年專責單位難以負責或是難以執行的現況所以若能將這個入法成為方針並且能夠"},{"start":8728.681,"end":8756.422,"text":"建立一個跨部門的一個平台去進行的話也能夠塑造成一個對青年更友善的環境也讓國家跟社會更具動能然後思考更多未來的可能性最後我們來談一下我們的生活其實在生活水準比較高的這個臺北市我許多的同學們都其實都要接個一兩個家教或者是打工然後生活中其實背負了很多的壓力然後才能適應這個高額的生活花費"},{"start":8757.242,"end":8783.474,"text":"那沉重的課業激烈的競爭還有環境所營造的社會壓力也讓許多人的身心靈狀況都不太健康的這個樣子但我想青年出入社會或是仍在就學的人各項的生活需求並不會少於這些已經在社會打拼了很多年的這些有著一定的資產或是資源的社會中間那隨著可能電價及物價的上漲"},{"start":8784.794,"end":8812.399,"text":"生活其實越來越難那青年還有學生其實也受到了很大的影響因此我覺得就像一些法規版本裡面所提到的無論說是在居住、交通、教育甚至生育上面政府都應該給予一定的優惠以及補助那也應該針對所謂的幸福資源提供多一點的量能還有幫助那除此之外在青年的主觀感受上如果說能夠提供一些公共設施比如說像咖啡廳"},{"start":8813.379,"end":8816.222,"text":"提供青年成本較低的創業或學習場域補償青年在社會空間上的相對不平等"},{"start":8829.434,"end":8847.314,"text":"無論是出於青年主流化還是怎麼樣的理由不管說這個法規最後是什麼版本通過或者是通過之後怎麼執行其實這個法規通過我覺得都有一個非常大的一個宣示性的一個作用象徵說我們的國家政府這個社會是對青年是有所關注及重視的"},{"start":8848.395,"end":8850.357,"text":"謝謝許志遠會長接下來就請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":8878.394,"end":8879.609,"text":"那也請林楚英委員準備"},{"start":8888.632,"end":8907.762,"text":"我們今天在這邊其實都是對於這個青年發展法的支持一定是支持的但我思考的方向就是說我們訂了這個法之後怎麼樣讓政府對於青年的照顧可以更好第二個就是說我們這個法訂定之後它會不會危害到原本政府對於青年照顧就從兩個方向來討論這個事情"},{"start":8910.884,"end":8926.003,"text":"第一件事情就是根據我們的這個青年基本法的草案不管是各個版本都強調就是說政府應該要對於青年的十一住行、就業、就學各個面向都應該要有更好的照顧這個是大家都知道的事情"},{"start":8926.664,"end":8926.684,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8944.017,"end":8959.638,"text":"請問一下我們這個法定了之後有沒有解決了什麼現行沒有解決的部分第二個是有沒有我剛講了有沒有危害到青年部分我舉個例子因為我們這個法裡面有談到"},{"start":8961.257,"end":8988.528,"text":"我們是不是要訂定一個專責的青年機構然後那個青年機構它的位階是什麼它的功能是什麼這個部分我可以舉過去地方政府的發展的案例讓大家了解因為以前我是來自於地方議員在過去新北市政府也有成立一個青年局那當時青年局成立的時候其實面臨到定位不明的問題為什麼 因為有很多業務實際上是各個機關已經在做的"},{"start":8989.548,"end":9017.578,"text":"社會住宅青年創業公托教育這些本來是分屬在各個的業務機關結果就是因為新北市成立青年局之後為了要讓這個青年局有事做所以就把很多業務從其他的單位移撥過來那移撥過來造成什麼狀況呢例如說我們非常重視青年的創業所以就把青年創業移到了青年局"},{"start":9018.442,"end":9044.131,"text":"那結果青年局來推動創業有做得比原本的經濟發展局好嗎?實際上是沒有的為什麼?因為在過去青年經濟發展局他在發展業務的時候他有一個計畫叫做大手拉小手就是說讓這些青年在創業的時候他最需要資源或業務可以透過經發局既有的他的一些廠商的關係然後推動一個大手拉小手的計畫"},{"start":9045.552,"end":9061.871,"text":"讓這些已經業績穩定的公司把業務給這些青創公司讓青創公司在剛成立的時候就有基本的業務所以實際上青創業務放在經濟發展局的推動實際上是比放在青年局還要好的"},{"start":9062.645,"end":9080.534,"text":"所以這個就出現我剛剛所講的狀況我們如果成立一個專責機構有沒有一些業務的推動它會反而會去影響到原本對青年的照顧這是我們必須要去思考的問題那所以假設我們今天要成立一個青年的專責機構我們要考慮它是剛剛我聽很多同學講的建議很好"},{"start":9080.854,"end":9100.321,"text":"他是不是只是一個統籌性的東西比如說他去列管各個單位應該要有的青年政策然後把青年的聲音把它納入定期的去追蹤這些業務單位是不是有如質如期把青年的聲音把它反映出來然後把政策如期的推動"},{"start":9101.161,"end":9101.321,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9118.928,"end":9145.878,"text":"他怎麼發揮督導的功能然後把青年的聲音把它納入我覺得這是我們必須要考慮的否則可能我覺得就會出現到我剛剛講的那個新北市政府青年局的狀況他一開始的定位非常的不明確那時候臺北市說要成立青年局還問這個前新北市青年局局長說這個青年局要怎麼弄然後新北市前青年局長還跟臺北市說好像成立青年局沒什麼用為什麼會出現這個狀況"},{"start":9147.699,"end":9163.353,"text":"就一開始的時候定位不明嘛所以立刻就會發現說好像不知道怎麼辦所以我過去在議會質詢那個青年局長的時候我說你們青年局的業務到底是什麼一開始也講不太出來他說他們有成立一個科有做調查研究去研究青年的需求我說就這樣喔"},{"start":9164.374,"end":9176.991,"text":"這個不需要你成立一個局嘛青年需求實際上從媒體或是各個委員會很多人聲音都會反映出來啊我不用成立一個局在做這個事啊我應該思考的是說如何去成為一個機構是真正可以照顧青年嘛這是"},{"start":9179.384,"end":9194.913,"text":"我的第一個看法 第二個看法就是說 那我們政府本身除了訂這個法之外 我們真的有重視青年嗎比如說青年的很多聲音 他反映出來之後 他要怎麼落實成為真正的政策"},{"start":9195.974,"end":9224.368,"text":"然後成為政府施政的考慮就像很多青年都考慮都非常關心的低薪問題我們就很想問現在的政府你們也知道說青年關心低薪問題可是你對於低薪問題你拿出什麼解方出來看不到啊我們只有看到不管是主計處或者是相關單位拿一些數據出來騙人說一月的平均薪資是八萬多所以很多青年看到這樣的數據都很生氣說對不起我拉低了薪資那"},{"start":9225.568,"end":9250.833,"text":"過去在疫情期間很多青年反應說政府應該要如何去改變那個疫苗政策讓所有青年也可以打到疫苗但我們政府有根據這些青年聲音去做調整嗎沒有所以我非常鼓勵所有的青年把聲音表現出來可是當我們的聲音透過體制表現出來之後那政府如果不重視的話那是不是有一個什麼辦法可以讓他"},{"start":9252.625,"end":9279.137,"text":"真的把大家的聲音當一回事我覺得這也是我們關心的還有除了在場有非常多青年代表我覺得非常棒大家其實希望說你們聲音通過體制把問題解決像我們在我的選區所在地也有大學我跟大學的學員會長也保持很好的互動有時候他也會針對大學周邊的比如說要做什麼人行穿越道啊或者是什麼水溝蓋這些問題全部幫他解決但現在問題來了"},{"start":9280.714,"end":9300.429,"text":"學生會如果希望你有增加公共參與那為什麼在增加公共參與的時候還必須要透過民意代表才能解決這個問題理論上大家希望的應該是我作為一個學生知識團體我直接就可以跟政府反映政府就能夠直接幫我解決問題但為什麼還要透過民意代表所以這也是大家想要解決的問題"},{"start":9301.73,"end":9312.035,"text":"以上 我先說我們是支持這個法案才會來這裡但是在訂定這個法案之後方方面面它有很多細節要考慮的也給大家作為參考 謝謝好 感謝 感謝月圓之委員那林崇英委員現在還在司法法制委員會諮詢所以我們接下來先請劉耀偉同學那也請黃庭偉副秘書長請準備"},{"start":9338.669,"end":9359.877,"text":"主席各位委員以及在場的專家學者以及一些長官大家好我是園大學四人系的同學劉耀偉那過去也是在桃園市政府擔任青年諮詢委員那其實在今天來看到就是說我們這個立法院想要推動青年基本法其實這件事情在過去我們在桃園市青資會的時候其實那時候就私底下有跟幾個委員在討論說我們需要這樣子的一個專法"},{"start":9362.858,"end":9379.026,"text":"主要是因為看到兒少法它其實是有去保障說一些兒少代表的一些職權那我們也會希望說在青年基本法裡面可以針對青資跟青年這個部分來去做一些保障那以下就是針對就是說這一次有一些討論提要的部分我來進行一些意見的闡述"},{"start":9380.666,"end":9393.653,"text":"主要是說青年年齡的定義為何跟如何劃定標準其實我認為說青年基本法確實是一定要去定義說青年的年齡大概是多少因為目前在各大多數的縣市其實都有親資會根據統計好像有20個親資組織這樣子但每個親資會所定義的年齡其實不太一樣"},{"start":9401.677,"end":9406.538,"text":"桃園市是16-40歲台中市是15-35歲每個縣市的年齡定義都不太一樣最高年齡可以到45歲在這個範圍中我們就得去定出一個明確的標準否則在每個市屋上面所說的青年的定義期不一樣的時候可能會造成一些混亂"},{"start":9426.883,"end":9439.227,"text":"那其實像是在兒童權利公約裡面有提到說其實18歲以下他是屬於兒童嘛那在我國的兒童及少年權益保障法裡面他定義的18歲以下他是兒童及少年嘛那其實那我會認為是說"},{"start":9441.567,"end":9468.992,"text":"目前為止,譬如說像是有些青資會他其實定義的我們的一個青年他其實年齡會低於18歲以下譬如說有16歲有15歲這樣子那其實我這邊的話仍然還是會定義說其實有機會的話其實應該會從18歲開始起算會比較好那主要原因是因為說其實我們已經現行的法律裡面其實有去定義說兒少他的一個年齡是兒少的年齡是18歲以下那會覺得說那青年基本法是不是就從18歲以上開始定這樣子"},{"start":9471.893,"end":9489.588,"text":"這針對避免16至18歲在法律上會有重疊到兒少及青年的問題所以這個部分我認為是可以在18歲以上起算目前看到很多草案的年齡上限大概都定在35歲以下目前參考行政院的定義就可以了"},{"start":9497.415,"end":9521.334,"text":"總而言之,我自己的想法是,在《青年基本法》裡面的話,青年的定義可以定義在18歲到35歲那其實在青年要不要新設機關,以及要不要指定機關,或者是互相協調的部分那其實目前的青年業務是歸屬在教育部的一個清發署那其實許多的青年真的會需要跨部會的去做協調"},{"start":9523.216,"end":9548.274,"text":"我認為現在的青年業務機關可以在網上提升一個層級以例說可以做跨部會的一個業務推動由專屬的部會來處理青年事務獨立處教育部這個單位尤其像我會覺得建議中央的部份是可以成立像是例如青年委員會這樣的方式來去處理青年業務並且考慮在青年委員會裡面可以納入一定比例的青年委員比如18到35歲的青年委員"},{"start":9551.716,"end":9579.566,"text":"任命為他的青年委員之一那其實過去像是立法委員們有曾經提出過說要希望在行政院裡面徵社所謂的青年的副院長那就是之前有這些修憲的時候有這些的構想嘛那其實在未來無論是不是新設機關或者是去做指定機關的時候若是可以去推動看看說至少有一名青年去擔任所謂的副首長以上等級的一個首長副首長或首長之類的或者是在青年委員會裡面設定一定比例的青年委員"},{"start":9580.126,"end":9584.098,"text":"其實它都可以讓這個機關可以更了解青年的一些想法"},{"start":9585.219,"end":9613.334,"text":"那在地方政府上面的話其實陸陸續續有許多政府提出成立青年局或者是成立青資會但是在青年基本我認為說在青年基本法上面它還是需要留給縣市政府一些空間因為因為地方制度法的關係要保障地方自治嘛那所以留給一些空間給縣市政府是好的但是呢就比方說我們在青年專職機構上可能就是讓縣市政府它可以針對它自己的需求去成立局處或者是比方說花蓮好像是發展中心這樣子那"},{"start":9613.894,"end":9638.725,"text":"另外一個方面是說建議在地方政府的部分其實立法院可以去參考說像是當年在立兒童及少年權益保障法的時候他在第10條有例說在推動兒少政策的時候需要有兒少代表去參與跟與會那其實某種程度上我們也可以在我們的青年基本法裡面去定義出這樣子的類似的條文去讓說地方政府他在發展青年政策的時候他其實是可以保障說我有青年代表會去共同來去推動所以我認為說一旦"},{"start":9640.146,"end":9664.197,"text":"因為我們過去在桃園親資會發生一件事情是我們隸屬於青年局底下我們是業管單位是青年局但是我們如果今天提出了一些意見之後在很多其他單位的眼中會變成是這是青年局的委員會裡面的意見那它會變成是說平行機關間很難互動那它可能會需要更說比方說它可能需要一個更高等級的更高層次的方式才可以跨局處理"},{"start":9665.802,"end":9691.585,"text":"那其實在青年白皮書的部分我認為是說可以針對像比方說我們總統一任是四年嘛那其實我認為說一個白皮書是一個政策的願景那或許是每四年一次來去做一個政策的規劃那也有看到草案中有提到的是青年國事會議那其實我們認為是說如果是四年一期的一個願景的話其實每兩年來辦一個青年的國事論壇它可以有助於說我們每兩年來檢討一次我們目前的進度及方向"},{"start":9692.981,"end":9715.502,"text":"那最後其實是說過去我是親資會嘛那其實在各縣市政府大多都有成立親資會那我認為是說目前為止都是授權讓各個地方政府有沒有授權啊就是各個地方政府自己去訂定設置要點但是其實會讓親資委員蠻有那個就是定位不明的地方所以其實親資委員到底"},{"start":9716.483,"end":9737.228,"text":"親子委員的建議到底能不能跨出青年專責機構這其實是可以需要去做討論的所以我們這些都是蠻急需一些法律的配套措施來去完善尤其是親子委員在目前為止說其實很多建議就真的是僅止於建議這樣子那剛剛也有專家學者提到就是親子委員的提案模式那其實過去在台灣其實因為之前有參加過交流會其實有"},{"start":9738.369,"end":9757.743,"text":"臺灣的青稚有非常多種交流提案的方式有委員會 有專案處理 有主題式你關心兒少可以關心兒少議題然後桃園市青稚蠻特別的是市政參訪就了解市政之後針對市政提出議題那其實究竟要怎麼讓青年去有效的影響政策這才是我們大家未來可能需要更加討論的方向以上 謝謝"},{"start":9761.898,"end":9762.559,"text":"王婷緯副秘書長羅雍聖"},{"start":9773.783,"end":9796.252,"text":"在場委員 各位先生 大家應該算午安了我這邊代表台灣學生聯合會來這邊發言青年基本法是需要具備靈活性跟定貌作用旨在透過青年基本法的立法來提供未來諸多青年政策跟法規一個可遵循的方向、價值跟信念我們期待的青年基本法是提供我們可能性跟普遍性的一部法規"},{"start":9797.152,"end":9823.749,"text":"建立在青年基本法之上我們更能夠因應快速更迭的社會來促成符合當代青年跟社會需要的政策跟法規有鑒於此我們需要更理解青年主流化的定義我們並非是針對青年去設計政策而是在每一個議題或政策法規的制定跟施行的時候都考量到青年這個面向我們要看見的是政策中的青年而不是青年下的政策這兩個東西是不一樣的"},{"start":9824.389,"end":9853.428,"text":"否則呢 青年基本法的美意其實可能會淪為一步一步的轉法那也是基於基本法的定位還有青年主流化的思維我們不應該把過度具體的政策或者是行度跟針對政策的資格等等去寫入基本法我們在草案裡面可能有看到一些那基本法提供的是一種信念的態度而不是實際的政策我們應該是要在基本法之下設立相關的下位階的法規以及各級政府進行符合青年基本法的施政和政策的法規的制定"},{"start":9854.448,"end":9875.474,"text":"有關於這次討論提綱,青年是幾歲到幾歲?國內各部門其實對於青年跟青少年還有兒童這些的歲數界定幾乎沒有一個統一的見解和標準那目前大部分的問題應該是下線到哪邊?青少年在行政院青輔會所出版的這個青少年白皮書裡面定義是12歲到21歲然後行政院主計書跟青輔會合編的青少年狀況調查報告"},{"start":9877.455,"end":9878.256,"text":"18歲以下屬於青年而非青少年"},{"start":9891.892,"end":9893.233,"text":"《立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會》"},{"start":9922.733,"end":9934.384,"text":"至於要不要新設或指定青年事務專責機關呢?青年政策是橫跨大量的政府部會的那這邊也要謝謝青年發展署的學育署長真的是幫助我們非常多,謝謝"},{"start":9938.368,"end":9959.389,"text":"如果是透過設置一個部或是署級的機關那可能的話沒有辦法達到青年事務上能夠真的比較靈活的去做跨部會協調的功效那我建議說行政院是可以下設青年委員會然後統合並統籌青年事務的規劃與運行的那比方說我們自己在做學生會的經驗其實蠻常會遇到說可能同學有一些實習上的困擾"},{"start":9959.969,"end":9960.089,"text":"海洋委員會"},{"start":9974.991,"end":9989.462,"text":"委員會、促轉會、大陸委員會等等雖然性質不盡相同但考量到青年事務的跨部會、跨層級以及中央跨地方這樣子一些特質所以我們需要有更彈性、更靈活的空間我們建議以委員會的形式來設立青年事務的專責機構"},{"start":9992.872,"end":10005.449,"text":"政府將青年部門設置在社會局、社會處或勞工局、勞工處這兩個類別的局處當中雖然不是沒有道理但對於青年事務的想像和範疇就會因此而有些限縮"},{"start":10006.59,"end":10031.176,"text":"在2016年的時候其實也參加過宜蘭縣的勤職委那個時候是16歲剛好是最低的最低的那個入選門檻進去那當時比較明顯感覺到的是大多數的討論是比較聚焦在創業就業啦工商發展等等比較少有對企劃方面的諮詢跟建議那我們需要希望去提醒大家這可能是一種倖存者的偏差有能力有時間或者是經濟條件經濟基礎的人比較容易會出現在這些地方"},{"start":10031.576,"end":10032.176,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":10058.473,"end":10058.493,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10084.508,"end":10107.719,"text":"我們也期待青年國事會議是可以納入應該是廣邀青年透過跟面對面的溝通和接觸來聽見青年的聲音那我們透過這三種方式可以去及時調整不適宜的政策並且為未來的政策調整提供參考那我也想請大家除了我們一直也一直在說的就是30年後的社會答案就在今日的校園這樣子的期待對於青年的期待那也更希望大家可以看見"},{"start":10108.499,"end":10124.265,"text":"青年單純作為青年作為我們的共同體的一份子我們的困境還有對社會還有世界的期待那我們也要同時記得我們要再次提醒大家那些沒有辦法走到這裡但同樣身陷困境在乎青年議題的那些朋友們謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝黃廷偉副秘書長那我們接下來請羅雍聖同學然後也請林淳英委員準備"},{"start":10141.659,"end":10158.768,"text":"大家好,我叫羅隆勝,現在就讀於台灣大學社會工作學系。過去我曾經參與學生自治,然後參選過台大學生會長,在社工系的學習裡面也特別關注兒少、青年的權益。那現在呢,也繼續關注在公共場域裡面青年的議題倡議,以及青年在體制內的位置、主流化還有青年的父權。"},{"start":10159.748,"end":10188.428,"text":"那我想跟大家分享其實青年的一天非常一般非常不特別一般青年可能上課上班出門從租屋處出門去上課上班然後再回家然後可能去跟朋友聚會啊自己回家等等這件事情想要說的事情是青年與一般大眾很難去區分到他的不一樣然後但同時呢對於青年本身我認為對於我們自己來說又有很切身的不同之處所以我想要就於這個相同跟不同之處跟大家分享我作為一個青年學生"},{"start":10189.529,"end":10216.545,"text":"對於這個青年基本法要青年權益的一些想法那首先是因為這個生活一般生活的相同之處我想表達事情是說其實青年的生活跟一般生活並無二致然後各青年的生活面向跟一般大眾的生活面向都高度相關那對於青年基本法來說我看到很多版本利益良善對於青年真的有很多不一樣的想像多元的想像但如果只有一個青年專責機關對於青年主流化的措施而言是不是足夠的呢"},{"start":10218.106,"end":10235.754,"text":"我認為要真的達到青年主流化必須要讓青年可以在體制內可以充分表達自己的意見讓青年進入到決策的環節才能落實這個整個青年的基本權益過去在參選台大學生會長然後過去在參與整個台大學生自治的時候其實就會發現很多學生權益的部分都要透過學生會來進行發聲那學生在這個校園裡面有遇到什麼問題遇到交通問題遇到生活問題"},{"start":10240.416,"end":10269.576,"text":"學費問題、未來實習問題、就業問題、學習問題問題五花八門,種種都比比皆是那真的透過一個單一的青年專責機關就可以照顧到所有青年的需求嗎?我想這個是有待去思考的那所以說,我也不能想像說一個青年政策比如說青年交通問題、居住正義的問題、所得的問題組織單位透過一個青年局、一個青年處而不透過整個...理所當然不是只是在限縮於這個青年局處嘛那它會在各個部會裡面進行分工"},{"start":10270.296,"end":10281.867,"text":"那這樣子的話對於這個青年專制單位而言是不是一個過大的負擔那與比起這樣子是不是能夠思考怎麼樣讓青年進入到不一樣的政策運作不一樣的政策的制定範圍裡面過去我們曾經聽過臺東縣長勞青年的分享"},{"start":10285.871,"end":10312.488,"text":"他說臺東的整個青年事務委員會的設置呢﹐以居居都是青年局﹐處處都是青年處的一個思考方向﹐沒有額外去設置單一的青年專責單位﹐而是以一個青年事務委員會﹐做到跨部會的統合以及連結﹐那促進整個跨部會的思考﹐就像剛剛委員有提到過的﹐文化主流化的時候﹐大家說部部都是文化部﹐現在我們應該思考怎麼做到﹐部部都是青年部﹐各部會的﹐"},{"start":10313.51,"end":10338.28,"text":"如何去進行合作如何去進行這個思考上面的年輕化來落實整個青年組織的話以這個台東的範例以及過去我在學生自治的經驗裡面呢我想可以去進行比如說全國性以及地方性的政府中思考如何把青年納入整個重要決策會議跟範圍裡面以及在這些會議裡面有青年代表那比如說青年國師會議啦青年代表等等都可以像現在講到的性別主流化一樣"},{"start":10338.7,"end":10365.496,"text":"推進年輕時代、推進青年的實質參與才能實質去落實青年的一些意見的影響再來是青年的一些對委員切身感受上不同之處我想提出一些青年期待看到的政策改變第一個我覺得是心理健康在現在網路世代以及過多人際網路、比較對象網路現在實質上對於年輕時代的生活焦慮以及徒增的一些心理壓力其實我想不用再重複提到"},{"start":10366.336,"end":10387.136,"text":"過去有很多統計研究都提到說現在年輕人面對的憂鬱、憂鬱傾向、憂鬱症狀等等都很嚴重社會工作裡面常常講到安全網我想除了青年的心理諮商、心理健康的資源建置之外也可以更思考說一個穩定的社會網絡、穩定的安全網絡才能真正去照顧到個體的心理需求"},{"start":10388.857,"end":10417.126,"text":"過去我看過比如說一些地方政府有辦過比如青年活動去進行青年網路的建立我想這些都對於青年的心理健康很重要不要只是在青年的心理健康範疇去提供比如說心理健康補助、諮商的補助等等這些都是到很後面很後面才解決問題有沒有可能對於青年來說有更前面的去建立網絡、去建立連結的部分讓青年在這個網路時代造成個體不斷原子化然後跟這個社會缺少連結的時候"},{"start":10418.247,"end":10420.824,"text":"能夠增加它的連結來減少我們的心理健康的風險"},{"start":10422.779,"end":10450.924,"text":"那再來是青年的公共參與我認為要賦權我們的青年促進青年的公共參與必不可少我們其實現在常常說到什麼青年政治冷感啦對於公共參與缺少興趣其實我想今天我們看到很多人站在這裡對於青年對於我們自己的想法跟權益來進行發聲可是這些終究來說對於社會上是不是少數我們是不是要持續來促進青年對於公共參與的想像以及可能性那這些我想都透過剛剛所說到的青年的主流化會有所幫助"},{"start":10451.744,"end":10474.202,"text":"比如說今天我經常被問到說那對於青年來說為什麼你要參與政治或者為什麼我要關心政治我覺得答案很簡單就是當今天你可以實際造成改變的時候你就會想要參與政治你就會想要去關注政治那今天我們如果不給予青年改變的機會不給予青年任何發現的機會的話那其實對於青年來說我們就會面臨一個為了越來越政治冷感的社會"},{"start":10475.384,"end":10492.604,"text":"舉台大學生會的例子剛剛有同學說到30年後的社會就是現在的校園現在的台大學生會會長投票只有3%我們希望看到是一個只有3%投票的民主社會我想對於民主社會都不是一個值得期待的未來所以說我們是不是能夠思考怎麼樣讓今年再"},{"start":10494.606,"end":10494.826,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":10522.13,"end":10543.369,"text":"本質上的不平等或是比較相對弱勢的時候其實政府可以思考怎麼樣提供青年一些公共空間那這些公共空間對於政府當然也有它的效益嘛比如說拉近青年與公部門的距離比如說增加青年建立網絡的機會等等等等我認為以政府的方式去提供一個青年的知行空間環境是蠻可以去思考的方向"},{"start":10543.849,"end":10571.537,"text":"那也是現在我在法案裡面比較沒有看到的面向既然我是社工系所以我想要舉我們對於正義以差異政治的一個想法就是社會是一個隨時動態在變動的結構那我們希望在現在有的這些青年生活的面向今年舉出的經費配比資源分配之外我們能夠去思考除了這些分配所要達到的表面上的正義之外能讓這些青年與不同的群體在這個社會裡面共同生活對這個社會能夠共同想像"},{"start":10571.917,"end":10572.057,"text":"羅翁生議員"},{"start":10599.697,"end":10622.019,"text":"謝謝主席我非常同意剛剛前面羅同學所說的其實現在政府的部門就應該是在乎青年主流那麼就應該是每個部門都應該是青年部或者是要關注青年的議題那麼這一次呢包括現場的不論是林益菁委員然後吳思堯委員都有提出有關於青年基本法的草案"},{"start":10622.039,"end":10622.119,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10646.317,"end":10674.381,"text":"金融的風險能力是相對比較低的金融教育其實還有努力的空間而這個年級的族群他們金融風險的抵抗能力居然比2020年還要更低而這項調查所指出的幾個所謂金融生活的盲點比如說先考慮投資然後資金有限沒關係覺得收入不夠那麼信用卡可以來分期使用然後他們是月光族無法支付的時候"},{"start":10674.701,"end":10674.941,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":10689.938,"end":10709.985,"text":"金融普惠或是普惠金融就會非常的重要但是在這樣的面向當中我希望我們的青年基本法當中也必須要納入這是本席所關心的就是怎麼樣來培養青年的金融素養其實最近我不知道大家有沒有關注到一個話題就是有一個所謂的少年股神那麼這些媒體的報導報導的都是這些少年股神如何能夠利用所謂的當沖一夕致富"},{"start":10717.268,"end":10738.404,"text":"但是大家忽略到的是這個股神事實上他翻車了他翻船了他後來賠了上百萬因為當初被認為很多年輕人認為他是無本的但事實上不是因為隨著現在的證交稅他的利率又比過去要少了一半讓許多的年輕人在片段的資訊底下認為這是一個投資賺錢的好方法"},{"start":10743.408,"end":10755.379,"text":"但是他忽略了其實是股市跟產業的脈動所以少年股神我們只看到了前半段但是沒有一個金融教育或者是普惠金融作為基底這對年輕人來說其實他很有可能一開始就輸在起跑點"},{"start":10760.023,"end":10766.608,"text":"根據金管會我手上所拿到的資料2018年當沖違約的數量當中20到39歲就將近佔了快四成也就是說有39%的年輕人他違約交割了違約交割背後所影響的是什麼這些20到29歲到39歲的年輕人他的信用因此受到了責損"},{"start":10784.002,"end":10798.094,"text":"未來他進入社會的時候不論是他要青年貸款不論是他要買房貸款這些信用都會受到損害甚至於他連辦信用卡的時候他的信用平等都會因此受到責損"},{"start":10799.375,"end":10822.19,"text":"但是在這樣的所謂普惠金融不夠金融滋事跟金融素養不夠的情況底下對於年輕人來說我也強烈的建議我也會提出我的版本希望在青年基本法當中給予青年必要的有關於面對金融常識的時候他們所應該要的金融素養另外除了當沖陷阱之外現在有所謂的先買後付也就是BNPL"},{"start":10823.371,"end":10829.862,"text":"最紅的代表就是大家可能都知道山道猴子的一生他就是一個所謂先買後付因為BNPL他是即時預訂"},{"start":10835.646,"end":10856.153,"text":"後續再付也就是先買再付然後不用像信用卡一樣會經過連徵也就是對你的信用做平等但是這些對於許多沒有辦法辦卡的年輕來講這就是一個所謂的金融陷阱因為你沒有考慮到你自己的資產負債表當中你擁有多少你會失去多少那麼因為我"},{"start":10857.473,"end":10872.366,"text":"過去的4年都在財政委員會我們也都很關注這樣的題目很開心今天林益錦主席在教育文化委員會討論到青年基本法在過去我們在乎教育文化我們在乎青年的健康我們在乎今年的參政權我也希望能夠在這一部法規當中跟得上時代給青年必要的金融素養那麼在這裡的部分的話包括經濟部"},{"start":10883.255,"end":10906.272,"text":"包括經管會這是過去可能大家都認為好像跟青年沒有關係的部會或是部門所以我再一次強調我非常認同那就是如果我們青年是主流那麼就應該要拉近更多的部會所有的部會都一起來那麼在政府組織當中到底是一個跨部會的委員會或者是一個屬於青年的青年局這些可以未來來做更細緻的討論"},{"start":10908.453,"end":10925.974,"text":"但是千萬不要忽略了就是金融這一塊也就是金融素養或是普惠金融這一塊因為我們都知道青年是國家的資產如果青年是因為缺乏金融素養可能他的人生就輸在起跑點甚至於就跌入了所謂債務坑洞"},{"start":10928.498,"end":10944.279,"text":"20年前我是記者當時有一個叫做雙卡風暴卡債風暴在這過程當中不是只有那些支撐家裡的三明治他們面臨了卡債的風暴其實很多青年他剛進入社會或者他在大學"},{"start":10945.14,"end":10950.102,"text":"他受到了廣告的影響受到了片面訊的資訊金融資訊的影響所以說他深陷債務其中所以這一次我要再一次的強調那就是政府部門今天也許與會參與的並沒有金融相關的部會但是我會持續的希望能夠在接下來的版本當中"},{"start":10967.549,"end":10977.987,"text":"普惠金融 青年金融素養的養成以及給予更多的關注這也是其中之一那麼只要能達到這個部分過去我們一直在講的所謂的"},{"start":10980.205,"end":10997.208,"text":"主宰平權包括我們所講到的如何讓青年能夠擁有第一桶金甚至能夠擁有一間房這些部分我相信有了前面的鋪陳以及前面的孵化後面就更容易能夠達到那麼這是本席這一次的意見 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝林楚芸委員我們接下來請陳培鈺委員然後也請吳思雅委員準備"},{"start":11009.909,"end":11034.594,"text":"好 謝謝主席那感謝怡瑾昭委今天舉辦這場公聽會那關於這個青年基本法的修法呢我們辦公室正在研擬相關版本那也非常開心今天可以聽到各位先進還有各位委員的高見那我們後續會把相關大家今天的意見納入我們的版本當中但是我們今天還是想要來發言是關於我們目前在收集關於青年基本法的一些意見的時候想要到這邊來跟大家分享首先"},{"start":11035.054,"end":11062.66,"text":"其實如同剛剛非常多專家有提到到底青年的年紀的定義這件事情我覺得是相關部會必須要一起共同討論的剛剛我也在跟楚雲委員討論到底他是專屬於教育部還是他必須建立所謂跨部會的溝通平台這個機制我覺得這也是目前大家必須要持續討論也就是說整個行政機關他必須要討論一件非常重要的事情就是如何建立一個全方位理解青年的論述平台"},{"start":11063.22,"end":11071.883,"text":"持續收集相關意見把相關的論述在這個平台上作為一個非常重要的溝通機制我覺得這是我首先要提出來的關懷接下來我們來看所謂青年目前我們辦公室希望傾向討論的是18歲以上到35歲以下"},{"start":11080.166,"end":11106.349,"text":"而目前根據人口統計這些年紀的人在臺灣目前全體人口數的21%也就是大概有五分之一最多到三分之一會是臺灣接下來五年到十年甚至二十年國家文化經濟政治教育發展的根本也就是說如果這些青年是未來國家的主體那我們如何在現在把很多必須要準備好的工作開始準備包含彰顯青年的主體性"},{"start":11106.849,"end":11108.972,"text":"鼓勵青年自我實現、公共參與、促進就業"},{"start":11122.713,"end":11145.698,"text":"教育部 青發署 青年諮詢小組地方政府 其實非常多地方政府都開始提出青年局 青年推動小組青年顧問團 青年諮詢委員會也就是大家都越來越重視青年的意見可是從中央到地方大家對於這些青年工作團隊裡面的定義跟工作的方向到底有沒有一致目前我們看起來其實有非常非常多的落差"},{"start":11146.258,"end":11172.959,"text":"所以後續在討論這個專法的時候我們也認為要把中央跟各個地方對於所謂青年政策青年福利青年發展的想像相關論述必須要一起用力的討論接下來我要談我自己家裡頭或者是我也認識非常多已經邁入所謂青年18歲定義的這些青年朋友我想要問大家大家如何真的去認識他們目前的需求目前所有在檯面上的發言或者是所有的立法委員"},{"start":11173.9,"end":11188.619,"text":"我們可能真的已經離青年階段越來越遠那目前這個青年世代他們在面臨全球化或者是反全球化的趨勢或者是所有的地緣政治非常複雜的國際局勢我覺得所有青年對於自己"},{"start":11188.899,"end":11189.099,"text":"《青年基本法》"},{"start":11216.141,"end":11241.901,"text":"通過一個基本精神的建立跟討論放入《青年基本法》但是在後續相關的配套跟措施執行還有如何服應台灣各鄉鎮縣市如此大的區域差異性這件事情都納入考量我覺得是後續行政機關跟所有立法委員還有相關的專家學者我們真的要共同一起努力的部分但是我要提出來鄉鎮差距越來越大這個事情務必要納入所有的相關的考量"},{"start":11242.681,"end":11242.721,"text":"創業及就業"},{"start":11264.737,"end":11293.243,"text":"回到呼應地方經濟的事情這件事情但是目前只有國發會的計畫而且它是只有相關補助但是政策的推動如何它變成是一個國家重要經濟政策的考量我要在這裡也要提出我們辦公室的關懷我們希望不是只是照顧到大家就業的勞動政策我們如何讓青年夥伴回到自己的社區家鄉透過地方創生初期的補助跟計畫到後續它真的可以產生地方經濟的動能這件事情是越來越重要"},{"start":11293.863,"end":11322.089,"text":"還有每一個臺灣地區的特色跟文化環境跟產業還有青年返鄉就業跟創業他們所面臨不同層面的議題我們也希望在後續我們辦公室的版本會加強關注這個部分那接下來要談關於教育的部分我想大家都認同教育是很重要很重要每一個人的基本權利可是目前我們在看到所有教育現場已經開始反映出來的問題包含偏鄉小校的廢校或者是很多私立大學退場的時候"},{"start":11323.089,"end":11340.698,"text":"他們所忽略所辣掉的是原本在學術成績上比較後段的青年的這件事情教育部則是相關部會如何去因應這個很大的困境已經在發生了而這個我會回應到就是我剛剛說的授教權是基本權利這件事情"},{"start":11341.098,"end":11364.771,"text":"我們如何在談這些基本的概念的時候把這些更細部更地方上所發生的困境放進我們的法案關懷裡頭接下來我們辦公室一直在談的關於青年身心健康這件事情過去的統計大家都看到是大學生的自殺或者是自殘的數字越來越高但是去年還是到前年相關統計相關的數字已經落到高中生跟國中生"},{"start":11365.151,"end":11382.471,"text":"我相信所有大人都為這件事情感到焦慮跟不知所措所以我們辦公室在過去一年當中邀請了教育部跟衛福部發動相關的討論我們也拜託國發會開啟相關的研究但是對於這個世代的年輕人身心健康到底困擾的面向還有哪些那起點又是什麼"},{"start":11383.132,"end":11400.603,"text":"未來有可能解放又是什麼我們也希望在談到身心健康的時候我們辦公室在這件事情上也會把相關關懷放入我們的青年基本法當中最後我們希望成立青年事務的專責跟同時跨部會的平台論述如同我剛剛說的他不僅要專責他也要跨平台討論的機制"},{"start":11401.844,"end":11405.025,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":11423.789,"end":11423.929,"text":"陳曉雯理事"},{"start":11450.173,"end":11474.567,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這個公聽會讓我有機會進一步跟大家來對話有關於如何實踐青年主流化推動青年基本法那我也看到今天的代表有以學生為主青年為主有地方政府代表也有學校代表然後更多的青年團體非常歡迎未來在推動過程請大家隨時都給思瑤姊姊更多更好的意見下一頁"},{"start":11476.809,"end":11488.043,"text":"我在去年的8月25號跟陳婷菲委員我們一起跟青年團體舉辦了一個臺灣需要一步青年基本法的公聽會所以我們努力的進程就開始往前進了下一頁"},{"start":11491.055,"end":11515.082,"text":"那我也在去年的11月3號對陳建仁院長來拋出這樣一個訴求所以陳建仁院長也已經宣誓要求行政部門開始研議行政院版的青年基本法而目前政策已經敲定是由教育部作為主責機關所以又往前推進一步了下一頁"},{"start":11516.222,"end":11535.923,"text":"我自己雖然在上一屆期我是立法院第一個推出《青年基本法》的立委這個屆期我當然也不落人後也趕快在新屆期因為屆期不連續新的版本在3月15號已經交付審查我也很快速的回應我的版本的幾個特色大概都會回應到今天的五個提綱"},{"start":11536.944,"end":11547.13,"text":"無私要版本是每四年提出青年政策白皮書每兩年要提出青年事務發展計畫有發展計畫來支持我們四年一次的青年政策白皮書然後要寬列青年事務的預算也跟大家報告也許青年朋友覺得說你要寫定幾%啦什麼什麼的那是因為現在的財政紀律法的規範已經沒有辦法在現行的法規裡面明定"},{"start":11564.3,"end":11588.201,"text":"單項事務的預算明定它的比例所以我的條文就是以每年要寬列青年事務的預算來處理第4個呢就是鼓勵各級政府設置青年事務的專責單位因為地方自治我們中央法規是用鼓勵而沒有辦法強制那第5個呢在行政院的部分呢就是改組現在的青資會那成立一個跨部會的青年事務協調委員會"},{"start":11589.782,"end":11589.902,"text":"創立跨部會協調會"},{"start":11613.63,"end":11616.091,"text":"政策制定的過程一定要確保青年的參與以及把居住、就業創業、教育、健康福利、文化、公共參與的權利明定入法"},{"start":11629.554,"end":11643.33,"text":"還有呢每年要﹖對不起我的版本是定期召開青年國事會議那定期是多久大家可以開放來討論所以就是無私搖版的青年基本法也謝謝有30多位的委員參與聯署一起推動下頁"},{"start":11644.571,"end":11672.358,"text":"好天時地利人和很重要今天走到這一步而且在教育文化委員會有公聽會代表我們青年基本法的立法進程又往前一步了因為我們的攻勢越來越強那為什麼需要呢我想我也要替清法署說說話啦當初馬英九在2012年裁創了清府會之後整個青年事務發展都在教育部的清法署所以他的level不夠高他就沒有辦法跨部會去整合的"},{"start":11673.058,"end":11673.258,"text":"蔡英文議員"},{"start":11702.978,"end":11704.039,"text":"天時地利人和"},{"start":11721.314,"end":11732.044,"text":"特別好因為民進黨是最照顧青年最重視青年的政府從這幾年的青年事務的參與18歲的公投法是民進黨主導修正的下修至18歲民法也都連帶下修至18歲唯一還需要請國民黨民眾黨加入我們的就是修憲的18歲公民權我們會持續來努力這裡是青年參政權民進黨很努力在做下一頁"},{"start":11748.138,"end":11749.759,"text":"中央政府總預算與青年相關1707億元"},{"start":11771.147,"end":11781.171,"text":"所以現在的政府是非常願意去推動青年主流化包括教育部的下一頁包括文化部的國科會中研院故宮再來內政衛福財政勞動經濟農業國發加起來"},{"start":11787.995,"end":11805.932,"text":"是1707億但是預算多變成大家管考自己的也許每個計畫都會互相打架所以我們需要一個統合性的機構才不會讓預算可能越來越多投入青年事務可是彼此之間也許有漢格下一頁"},{"start":11807.102,"end":11820.37,"text":"所以臺灣需要一部青年基本法就組織面就政策面就法治面一起來檢視而天時地利人和民進黨是推動基本法最"},{"start":11821.63,"end":11821.79,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":11844.608,"end":11858.983,"text":"所以10加1下一步我非常期待大家一起努力就是我們的青年基本法可以立法成功下一頁好我很快來下一頁我很快速的來說我的版本參照了芬蘭2016年的青年基本法下一頁也參照了韓國2020年的青年基本法"},{"start":11864.469,"end":11884.337,"text":"所以我統合出下一頁我剛剛說的這是思瑤姊姊的版本吳思瑤立委的版本但是現在的進程是什麼現在就是行政院願意推然後已經有主責機關然後相關的內容就會在教育文化委員會未來是審理的主要的場域"},{"start":11885.658,"end":11900.108,"text":"但是呢 我們如何去cooking出一部很好的院版我覺得很重要 個別的委員是個別委員的主張如果透過這麼多跟青年的對話可以協助讓行政院而且是未來的新內閣新總統的青年基本法那個意義無比的重大"},{"start":11905.131,"end":11928.019,"text":"所以我在這裡要提醒我們青發署教育部的同仁在場都是大家最好的智囊智庫那包括各個委員的版本我們一定要提出一個有高度而且有深度然後政策有廣度而且是不論誰執政都能夠耿續推動的擁有一個永續的長度的法案這就是基本法"},{"start":11928.519,"end":11928.779,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11950.913,"end":11952.494,"text":"臺灣青年勞動95聯盟理事陳曉雯北教大教經學系助理教授呂麗祥"},{"start":11970.05,"end":11996.608,"text":"各位大家好我是青年勞動95聯盟理事陳曉雯今天很高興可以來這裡發表一下我們對青年基本法草案的一些想法其實我們看到說大部分我們這樣看過來很多對青年的定義比較是在18到35歲左右18到35歲的青年我們有看過心理專家在研究這個階段青年反而是人生中最不快樂的一段時期"},{"start":11997.368,"end":12013.209,"text":"為什麼不快樂呢?因為在這個階段的年輕人他們通常家庭事業都最不穩定那如果說有遇到感情挫折的話那當然就是更不快樂因為我們是青年勞動95聯盟那以我們比較容易遇到的就比較擅長的勞動議題來說"},{"start":12015.992,"end":12043.743,"text":"這個階段年輕人事業都還不太穩定所以青年多半都還在求學或就業初期的階段所以可能從事的工作比較會是在彈性比較高的例如說非典勞動或特別是部分工時因為他們可能需要顧客業或者說我剛結婚我那個小孩剛出生他可能要花很多時間顧家庭對那所以他們可能從事的行業比較多是彈性比較高的非典勞動或者是部分工時就俗稱打工族"},{"start":12044.723,"end":12062.894,"text":"打工族比較容易遇到的就是老闆在違反很基本的勞動法令除了老闆無知以外年輕人也容易被欺騙因為他可能對勞動法令比較不熟悉但是我看過那青年基本法草案我有看到關於居住權的"},{"start":12065.956,"end":12069.598,"text":"但是或者是協助社團發展的但是比較沒有看到勞動權相關的但是我仔細看還是有一些點它是會跟勞動權比較有一點關聯那我可能就挑出來講"},{"start":12083.706,"end":12099.773,"text":"支持青年經濟獨立支持青年經濟獨立的話其實爭取工作權益變得很重要還有降低行使團結權的門檻也是很重要因為經濟獨立的第一步就是要對自己的勞動權益有一定的概念才能夠保護自己"},{"start":12100.333,"end":12119.54,"text":"所以對青年的那個賠利內容對勞動教育就是非常重要那不管是去打工還是實習都是對青年來說很重要的防身術所以我們認為說那個關於勞動教育這個東西他必須要很重視的東西那除了保護自己以外也要能夠行使團結權因為現在"},{"start":12121.642,"end":12136.94,"text":"台灣對組工會門檻還蠻高的,要30個人才可以組那可是以部分工時工作者來說,台灣大部分的中小企業那我一個地方工作,我要找到30個人很難而且搞不好同一間公司很多分店,他也找不到其他分店的人"},{"start":12138.062,"end":12157.379,"text":"以行使勞工團結權這件事情青年首先就已經沒有概念了就算他知道概念他要達到那個門檻也是很高所以我們認為說降低行使團結權門檻也是很重要的以及對業主不定期的進行勞檢對業主達到嚇阻及教育的目的"},{"start":12158.558,"end":12167.845,"text":"青年教育賠利勞動教育是很重要的一環目前為止勞動教育僅止於實施辦法或實施要點勞動教育應該是要強制入法因為所有青年都會工作勞動教育是非常重要的促進青年就業及創業"},{"start":12184.638,"end":12209.159,"text":"其實這部分也是跟勞動學很相關那時候我們是希望說促進就業它不是建立在補貼上而是因為補貼企業的話它就只是在救失業率的數字那勞動條件其實還是很低落那還有就是說訓練青年的就業技能其實要很小心一件事情就是建教合作、產學合作、教育史其中的剝削"},{"start":12210.74,"end":12220.792,"text":"因為我們那個傳統師徒智常在說一句話在就叫做合理的要求是訓練那不合理的要求是磨練但是這個我們認為說青年的就業訓練不應該是建立在這種傳統觀念上因為就是說我們常"},{"start":12227.139,"end":12241.797,"text":"例如說我們有時候會看到說我動畫系的被叫去洗網板啊或者說我是航管系被叫去抬行李或者是我去廣告公司實習我每天都在買便當那其實一點教育訓練的那個目的都沒有達到對"},{"start":12242.858,"end":12264.872,"text":"創業創業"},{"start":12265.472,"end":12288.322,"text":"但是其實創業的陷阱其實很多例如說像因為其實當然比較基本當然是提供創業資源相關資訊例如說創業貸款或是讓青年說我可以去哪裡申請補助、申請貸款那這是對青年創自己的業然後可以達到自由就業、經濟自由的一個很重要的方式但是我們覺得說有一種東西叫創業陷阱"},{"start":12291.423,"end":12313.835,"text":"其實常見創業陷阱例如說連鎖家門或承攬這個東西就很重要因為蠻嚴重的啦就是說像承攬很容易見到的就是假承攬真僱用比較常見就出現在我如果說我去接Uber Eats然後我以為我創業了我是個體戶結果我其實但是我其實還是每天被雇主各種的"},{"start":12316.42,"end":12332.439,"text":"各種的限制 例如說各種懲戒然後導致說奇怪我不是廠商嗎我不是獨立的嗎可是為什麼我還要受雇主的為什麼我還要受雇主的各種限制那我這個廠商的尊嚴在哪裡然後再來是還有就是"},{"start":12334.561,"end":12358.321,"text":"連鎖加盟總公司對加盟組很容易有各種剝削各種管理方式可能他一點自己自主管理的方式都沒有這樣的話就一點創業意義都沒有再來是協助以青年為主體的非營利組織或社團發展其實我們看到這個部分也是非常重要因為前面我們提到降低組工會的門檻"},{"start":12360.222,"end":12387.161,"text":"鼓勵青年行使團結權一個很重要的部分因為公會就是以青年勞工為主體而且可以促進青年參與公共事務我們甚至認為說建教合作或產學合作班級都應該可以有公會的功能再來是補助偏遠青年補助偏遠地區青年我們也是很樂見因為說一來是促進地區發展讓階級流動可以成為可能而且以我們的經驗來說"},{"start":12389.703,"end":12413.24,"text":"臺北市其實企業都還蠻遵守勞動法令可是偏遠地區往往是最不重視而且很常違法所以在這些地方對勞動事務相關部門促進當責應該是非常重要那以上 謝謝大家好 謝謝 謝謝陳曉雯律師那我們接下來就請呂理翔助理教授那也請羅廷維委員準備"},{"start":12422.181,"end":12441.97,"text":"台北教育大學文教法律研究所 呂理祥今天我當然已經不是青年了來參加這個公聽會我想提供一些從法律上面關於基本法草案應該具備怎麼樣的內容或是不應該具備怎麼樣的內容提供一些我自己個人的看法"},{"start":12444.291,"end":12471.414,"text":"首先第一個議題就是關於青年年齡的範圍我剛剛就座以後聽到非常多的專家以及我們青年代表提到這個青年年齡的範圍那我可能在這邊提出我自己不同的意見就是我認為年齡範圍有沒有必要規定在我們的基本法裡面假如我們真的要一個基本法的話我這樣的一個提問表示我對基本法是不是要訂定其實也是有所保留"},{"start":12471.934,"end":12472.054,"text":"法定人數"},{"start":12488.581,"end":12488.681,"text":"主席"},{"start":12509.392,"end":12526.73,"text":"的首長必須是青年那有沒有可能一個首長他今年34歲被任命為首長然後他35歲過一秒鐘的時候他就自動不是首長了呢那這樣的一個聽起來其實很荒謬的結果正是年齡範圍要不要定在法律裡面我覺得值得大家去思考的一個點"},{"start":12531.187,"end":12551.245,"text":"我們到底要不要設一個新的專責機關或者說指定某一個機關來作為這個基本法的一個主責機關或者說各部會相互協調就好了各位在草案裡面會看得到我們的青年事務呢包含到經濟政治文化勞動安全交通各方面的一個事務"},{"start":12552.607,"end":12565.459,"text":"各方面的事務其實都已經有目前都已經有主管機關了那一個例子在這邊我們可以看到一個例子就是目前這個法律起草的主責單位是教育部"},{"start":12567.02,"end":12594.087,"text":"而教育部其實只是關於青年的教育事務的主管機關關於其他的這個事務就教育部的事務管轄來說其實並沒有這樣的一個權限從這邊我們就可以看得到說一個青年事務一如剛剛非常多的委員跟縣議都提到說他沒有辦法精確的去劃分到底這個專責單位跟其他的一般性的所謂的目的事業主管機關的這個權限那因此就這個部分"},{"start":12594.667,"end":12594.847,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12613.698,"end":12633.636,"text":"比較籌備性或意見諮詢性、資料收集性的事務似乎也不需要特別設一個機關來作為它的一個組織目前不管是中央或地方的諮詢會議或是某些委員會的設計似乎就已經足夠了"},{"start":12637.421,"end":12657.796,"text":"這牽涉到中央與地方之間的一個全線劃分的問題剛剛前面有些先進有提到說從中央到地方其實有各種不同的青年單位或青年委員會或是功能性的一個組織我想我前面已經提到說我自己對要不要設專程單位其實有所保留"},{"start":12658.917,"end":12670.355,"text":"假如我們真的要設一個專責單位的話我認為首先需要釐清的是哪一些青年事務是屬於中央的事項哪一些是屬於我們地方的事項那"},{"start":12671.921,"end":12693.448,"text":"按照我們目前的這個中央跟地方的權限的劃分的一個做法呢如果是屬於地方自治事項他必須具備所謂的因地制宜也就是屬於地方透過地方自治有必要因為各個地方的青年屬性或者這個青年的需求不同所以有必要做的這樣的一個設計那就目前"},{"start":12694.068,"end":12702.604,"text":"我們剛所看到的這些事項政治經濟文化住房創業就學或者是交通安全其他的這些"},{"start":12704.62,"end":12732.742,"text":"點點點的這些事項似乎全台灣所有的青年都有類似或者是相同的需求那就地方自治這一點我自己是有所保留那假如沒有地方自治事項的話目前所有草案上面的事項應該都是屬於中央因此可能中央有必要來訂定這個有必要設置所謂的專責機關但是地方是不是也有必要就這個部分就有在商區的一個空間"},{"start":12733.743,"end":12735.486,"text":"白皮書的內容及形式"},{"start":12751.487,"end":12765.64,"text":"重點不在於白皮書要用什麼樣的形式重點應該在於說他要用要有一個廣泛的意見收集跟交流那四年一次比照現在這個兩公約的一個人權報告書的一個做法我認為是一個合理的一個頻率"},{"start":12767.348,"end":12783.058,"text":"最後是其他議題的一個建議跟思考我這邊提出三個點第一個青年基本法或者是青年發展基本法的主要任務應該是賦予國家對於青年發展的促進義務而不應該也不"},{"start":12784.639,"end":12784.899,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12814.719,"end":12815.2,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12834.902,"end":12850.756,"text":"預算都已經優先編列或寬列的話而基金的主要的來源都來自於主管機關的預算的撥補的話那基金行政似乎就沒有必要最後有沒有必要訂青年日每個版本都有提到要訂青年日這件事情那馬上想到就是"},{"start":12851.757,"end":12852.518,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12879.564,"end":12901.072,"text":"首先要稍微要謝謝怡瑾召委那麼重視青年議題那我們立法院現在有5個版本那她那個率先提出辦這個公聽會那希望能夠盡快讓青年基本法能夠通過那當然這裡面我自己也有一個版本那怡瑾委員也有一個版本然後大家看到吳思堯委員等的版本"},{"start":12901.852,"end":12928.304,"text":"那剛剛聽到就是各界的意見那我要謝謝教育部的今天的報告有讓我們看到就是芬蘭盧森堡還有好幾個國家都有青年基本法那為什麼要有這個基本法主要就是說青年的議題散落在各個部會裡面如果沒有一個就是開宗明義對他的一個基本的保障的話那其實很可能就會忽略到那另一個部分"},{"start":12928.804,"end":12950.539,"text":"也是我長期為什麼要投入在教育因為我覺得青年的未來就是國家的未來那如果我們從一個福利國家的角度像我們有社會福利基本法等等那如果能夠在青年時期就對青年做好投資的話其實對整個國家的社會福利事實上末端後端的支出類事實上是有機會節約的"},{"start":12951.94,"end":12952.24,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":12970.123,"end":12999.091,"text":"那也謝謝今天非常多的青年代表就是各團體我就不一一點名了那我自己非常關心這個議題那我在立法院跟我們的召委、議警、委員等等我們還有非常多的不分區跟區域的立委我們組了一個為下一代而戰的連線那我們在成立的記者會上就很清楚說我們是挺青年挺兒少跟多重弱勢者那我們當天也有告訴大家青年基本法"},{"start":12999.491,"end":13022.408,"text":"是我們的優先法案就是希望我們這一屆的立委任期能夠不僅是完成而且要優先完成那在這裡面我也跟大家報告我的版本有三大重點第一個必須要明白揭示處理各種青年生活的需求就是國家發展的重要方針那原因我剛剛有講到那第二個那我剛剛有聽到"},{"start":13025.31,"end":13025.45,"text":"主張青年專責機關"},{"start":13041.55,"end":13041.75,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13065.054,"end":13087.573,"text":"上面政府的專責機關相互交流才會有好的青年政策再來青年代表要有法定地位如果我們要有這樣子一個機制的話那席次比例青年至少要有二分之一我想青年的事務青年能夠參與決定那當然是最重要那這就是青年主流化"},{"start":13088.755,"end":13096.691,"text":"那我要講我們現在沒有這樣的機制的話那其實就會出現一個問題最近的例子今天衛福部有到嗎?"},{"start":13098.526,"end":13117.031,"text":"沒有,非常遺憾我實在是對衛福部非常的不開心因為我還針對最近兒少代表機制衛福部的提案要改變原本是由下而上選的這個機制我們政府部會都知道他們的意見常常都只是一個諮詢性質未必能夠參與決策"},{"start":13121.252,"end":13138.481,"text":"你讓他由下而上的代表像我們今天就有幾位兒少代表這是一個很好的民主機制啊那為夫婦的提案居然把它改成是由上而下領選那等於是他的民主選舉被拔掉了他本來是各縣市這樣選上來最後能夠來中央是一個多大的榮譽"},{"start":13139.641,"end":13153.334,"text":"那這樣子一個很好的機制我當天緊急去跟我們衛福部長質詢然後我以為可以改變就很遺憾沒有改變還是照案通過那我想這就代表就是說青年跟兒少一樣"},{"start":13154.395,"end":13179.422,"text":"如果你沒有給他一個位置保障很多的政策也不知道是哪位政務官哪個靈感突然覺得這樣比較好然後他就被改變了那我想這就是一個不好的例子那我很遺憾沒有辦法改變他那就是這個部分我覺得我們要保障青年代表民主參與機制那不只是要有性別比例特別是不利處境者參與也要確保"},{"start":13180.502,"end":13206.053,"text":"因為衛福部這次改變就是因為國際公約、國際專家說兒少代表要有不利處境結果不是用外加的方式用這個理由把它改成零選我覺得這是不對的因為如果你由下而上選出沒有不利處境者你可以外加事實上由下而上選出就跟我們的性別保障名額它也是可以去設定的所以我覺得"},{"start":13207.153,"end":13208.694,"text":"總統賴清德副總統前一段時間辦的投資未來的青年論壇跟我們的準格魁都到場"},{"start":13231.791,"end":13258.204,"text":"當天就是青年的意見他們都有聽到青年的意見之一就是要有青年基本法那當天我也有到現場吳思耀委員也有到那我們有聆聽青年的意見那也提醒大家這是我們準總統在公開的場合聽到青年的主張那我希望我們能夠競速立法那這畢竟是一個由下而上的投資未來世代裡面的青年論壇他們自己的聲音"},{"start":13260.245,"end":13269.969,"text":"希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責"},{"start":13287.116,"end":13287.276,"text":"反映委員"},{"start":13307.452,"end":13328.603,"text":"好 那我們今天各位專家學者跟立法委員我們登記都發言完畢了那是不是現在我就請看是政次還是署長要來做一些回應對於我們今天專家學者或立委提出的一些意見做一些相對的回應好 政次 謝謝那我們請林明儒政次"},{"start":13341.318,"end":13366.205,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位青年代表、各位學者專家剛才在這禮拜聽各位的意見收益不少我的孩子都是30歲以下我平常也很少聽到青年朋友的聲音只有聽到我兒子跟女兒的聲音但是我今天開闊了視野那委員跟各位學者專家給我們很多的寶貴意見對於行政部穩定令"},{"start":13367.265,"end":13386.453,"text":"青年基本法是有所注意的那委員版本也非常多其實我們也抓取委員版本的很多的重點進行各部門跟地方政府的這些相關的諮詢大概也有三場次的我們也做了一些功課那對於青年主流化這個議題"},{"start":13388.699,"end":13403.286,"text":"這個是我們比較關注的也是大家形成比較大的重點對於青年年齡的定義不一但是也可以參差目前現有的規制對於青年相關的就學、福利、創業"},{"start":13405.655,"end":13434.594,"text":"行之身、身心健康、醫療、保健、教育這方面有各組織的機關所以剛才有一位今天朋友說希望透過院級的相關的委員會來做協調整合目前各部會的首長、副首長一起來開會嚴厲推動相關的政策擬定在這個基本法裡面我們大概是想要往這個方向來前進"},{"start":13436.294,"end":13461.311,"text":"那對於剛才也有教授是認為說年齡的界定很可能會激化青年的對立青年日的定定可能會激化相關世代的爭議等等這個我們也會聽進去但是一方面來講因為我們對於一個進步性的立法我們還是希望有一個明確的指標主軸這個會方便我們對於青年發展的範圍有所確立"},{"start":13465.37,"end":13466.991,"text":"新興科技會影響青年定義,格委員說透過AI科技可以創造新時代青年四代的創建,這個我們也覺得非常有創意"},{"start":13483.75,"end":13498.861,"text":"另外在青年醫療部份的確在衛福部份可以比較琢磨有委員提到有關於青年身心健康的保健在我們這部草法裏面我們有涵蓋在內"},{"start":13502.247,"end":13520.321,"text":"那相關於各地方政府成立青年組織機關之後可能會有退步行政的概念就是說有一個新的單位那它基於不夠專業專精反而喪失了某一些支持青年政策的一些優勢這個我們會把它牢記"},{"start":13525.302,"end":13549.908,"text":"那另外最多的委員還有代表提到青年是未來的國家的主力這是沒有問題那因為青年它本身不是個身份也不是個職務它是一個青年人人生學習工作創業回饋社會的歷程在這個歷程裡面遇到婚姻家庭育兒等等相關的"},{"start":13551.768,"end":13563.973,"text":"這個狀況我們要給他最多的支持所以這個部分我們是希望青年的確是國家未來的主人翁他這一段歷程所學習到的回饋的一定是重點"},{"start":13565.717,"end":13588.889,"text":"甚至我個人也覺得我我三十幾歲曾經參選過鄉鎮市層級的市長那時候我也覺得說如果他可以讓我5%的話我是不是可以當選我這樣隨便亂扯我的意思是說青年參政青年參與公共政策那是一個非常好的議題一個開端所以剛才好像台大學院會他有一個"},{"start":13590.043,"end":13590.704,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":13606.218,"end":13606.478,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13627.421,"end":13630.365,"text":"林昭慧、范玉委員、今天出席的委員、專家學者以及學生代表提出的很多建議,今天非常開心"},{"start":13646.444,"end":13672.189,"text":"各位委員也了解教育部青年署目前我們是在教育部的三級機關那確實在目前的一個推動之下相關的一個架構跟經費裡面我們要怎麼樣再去往前去推動相關的青年事務就如同今天我們召委還有各位委員以及先進所提到的一些建議方向那在這個部分"},{"start":13673.829,"end":13674.049,"text":"主席"},{"start":13690.206,"end":13690.326,"text":"推動委員會"},{"start":13712.651,"end":13712.971,"text":"《青年基本法草案》"},{"start":13736.59,"end":13736.73,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13757.796,"end":13758.357,"text":"7年發展署 陳學宇"},{"start":13774.045,"end":13800.093,"text":"我想今天真的是滿破天荒的因為今天的公聽會我們有15位立法委員來登記發言有12位出席發言這是我們教育委員會我們祖密說他坐在這個位置上第一次看過那麼多委員踴躍出席發言那我們剛好今天也有12位的專家學者一起來參與與會所以剛好12比12所以我們今天"},{"start":13808.079,"end":13823.992,"text":"公聽會的最後還是非常感謝今天各界的與會人士各位的意見都非常的具有建設性那也非常的寶貴那我想不論是概括性的或者是原則性的那我們都會好好的去把這個做"},{"start":13826.234,"end":13826.274,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":13844.592,"end":13845.572,"text":"《青年基本法》定位"},{"start":13859.778,"end":13881.443,"text":"可知恩昭偉跟本席都有提到就是說這個法是原則性的 落實上還是要透過執法跟施行細則才能做處理因為很多的事情還是地方政府去落實那所以在法律的架構上 仍是一個所謂的指引性的 大方向性的文字去做規範"},{"start":13882.483,"end":13882.803,"text":"黃婕 范雲 葉文芝委員"},{"start":13899.458,"end":13914.258,"text":"建立青年公共事務的參與機制是非常重要讓青年在政策制定上有著左右自己權利的機會同時建立青年參與的機制跟制度的組織"},{"start":13916.913,"end":13930.9,"text":"不管是中央層級的諮詢組織 或者是地方的參與 也是吳佩儀委員等他們發言的重點之一我想青年事務會避免分散各部會 有專責單位來負責整合"},{"start":13933.621,"end":13958.508,"text":"也是在場相對多的委員提出的這個共識那我有關這個部分教育部的想法當然是研議加強跨部會事務的協調機制那同時也希望說也可以參採在場出席者的這個意見那提升中央專責機關的這個地位那有更多的資源可以挹注讓實質的那個機關內容跟地位的變化"},{"start":13959.628,"end":13984.485,"text":"宣示對青年主流化的重視當然也有發言者指出我們希望讓各部會有重視青年政策的空間讓步步都可以實現青年政策的融入有關於年齡的定義上我覺得當然還是有很大的討論的空間參考出席者的發言台灣青年的生命經驗發展脈絡"},{"start":13986.286,"end":14008.857,"text":"是需要被重視的一點那另外葛榮鈞委員也有提到說數位時代的青年亦有特別定義來的看法那這個其實也很值得重視那同時從兒少如何過渡到青年從青年如何過渡到吳春城委員最常愛說的壯世代這也是這部青年基本法要做的彈性應對的地方"},{"start":14009.637,"end":14029.431,"text":"在廣泛的意見收集上 青年國事會議以及相關於中央跟地方論壇的定期舉辦我看是不能少 是必須的不論是青年基本法的推動進程為何我們都會敦促行政部門要馬上定期來舉辦青年的會議這也是呼應賴總統對青年的承諾"},{"start":14034.895,"end":14035.216,"text":"法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":14049.933,"end":14076.38,"text":"發言人也都有加強的論述對於這些政策的重要性那例如像林楚瑜委員他看重的是金融素養的這個教育那林月琴委員跟陳金輝委員就重視青年心理健康的問題等等那陳培委員也有更指出說這個城鄉差異的配套執行是後續行政機關跟專家學者跟民間單位必須要共同研議努力的"},{"start":14077.06,"end":14099.856,"text":"無論如何我想這個會期首唱這個的青年基本法的吳思堯委員他就很強調說現在是天時地利人和那讓台灣的年輕人決定自己的未來所以行政立法我們要攜手加速青年基本法的訂定那我們就一起努力最後真的謝謝各位"},{"start":14104.523,"end":14106.826,"text":"文匯英語公聽會終結後10日內,依出席者所提供的正反意見,"},{"start":14125.686,"end":14132.15,"text":"提出公聽會報告、宋教本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案的參考"},{"start":14156.106,"end":14159.97,"text":"《青年基本法》最重要最重要的修法依據謝謝各位現在散會請我們與會的青年代表學者我們大合照一下好不好來來台寫一下"},{"start":14188.404,"end":14188.565,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15895","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855da7963983a35b0d1fc48310b441d33d3be8d109af184be4f97c7be573c321335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、\n（一）審查行政院函請審議「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「再生醫療發展法草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（五）審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（六）審查委員王正旭等20人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（七）審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（八）審查委員陳菁徽等19人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n（九）審查委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n二、\n（一）審查行政院函請審議「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n（五）審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n（六）審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（七）審查委員王正旭等20人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（八）審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n（九）審查委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n【一(一)、(八)、(九)及二(一)、(九)，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】\n【本次會議逐條討論】\n【5月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T08:31:20+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-09T12:44:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15160,"委員發言時間":"08:31:20 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{"start":3004.542,"end":3006.725,"text":"陳委員剛剛提到,就是說有提到"},{"start":3022.086,"end":3036.16,"text":"現在在使用細胞組織這些的話大概有三種來源第一種是同一個人的同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞同一個人的細胞"},{"start":3038.542,"end":3055.077,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案案案 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞 同種液體細胞"},{"start":3066.007,"end":3088.257,"text":"所以如果要寫的話就我是建議只寫異種就好而且大家那時候擔心說什麼意志科學發展但是我們強調說這個東西是在醫療行為就已經要行為而不是跟研究室的發展什麼那不相關的那個異種的細胞要拿來人體使用陳委員是反對這一個啦"},{"start":3091.418,"end":3115.131,"text":"我昨天其實也有做說明就是說事實上這個會有可能的影響比方說你使用的是細胞單細胞或其他的動物比方說比較簡單的牆上動物等等這些那未來也許會有這一方面的發展"},{"start":3116.032,"end":3116.392,"text":"五）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3136.115,"end":3159.923,"text":"當然委員是說那個還在研究階段等到研究有了結果之後再來修法把這個一種使用把它放寬這是我們第一次要立法那這個時候就把它放在裡面"},{"start":3161.309,"end":3181.296,"text":"那當然因為這個研究到可以臨床上面去使用的話可能還有一段時間不過因為未來不管是你用同種異種的這種細胞的話都必須要經過人體試驗或跟臨床前的試驗那我們現在就是"},{"start":3183.377,"end":3184.117,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3204.503,"end":3221.399,"text":"對,但是其實以國際上面有一些臨床試驗已經在做,不用我這邊收集到... 部長,我們錄得到嗎?我們心知肚明啦。我們這次人家做很久的國家,我們都還這個經驗啊,這個... 特殊性不透明。我幫你補充一下好不好?"},{"start":3221.399,"end":3221.679,"text":"好,謝謝。 我來補充一下。"},{"start":3227.404,"end":3251.895,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜和醫療分開,醫療限於同種同體,那治劑的話或許這個同種異體可以繼續開放,但是異種的我們也限縮在於非完成國外臨床試驗不得,或者是說你要正面說已完成臨床試驗的就可以,"},{"start":3253.407,"end":3253.667,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3268.527,"end":3275.131,"text":"你這個製劑你同種議題大家可以廣泛使用的這個沒有關係那我們也開放同種議題可是異種異種就一定是議題可是這個東西我們可以只要是國外有完成的或是國內有完成完整的臨床試驗的也可以這樣子就好了嘛不是嗎只要完成正規的正規的臨床程序的為什麼不能"},{"start":3297.891,"end":3309.089,"text":"那就是這一句話那就是一種一體細胞進行醫療行為之前必須完成這個不在母法裡這個事關重大欸或立法說明欄把這三項放進去"},{"start":3310.199,"end":3311.26,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3331.121,"end":3331.641,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3360.519,"end":3361.34,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3378.752,"end":3379.933,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3392.411,"end":3393.012,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3413.015,"end":3432.691,"text":"我想是這樣子同種議題的部分的話不要去區分說製劑或者是說技術啦同種的都是使用在人啦但是是別人的細胞啦這部分我是建議不要限制說只有製劑可以"},{"start":3433.792,"end":3442.938,"text":"那我們的例外條款要適用這一些嗎?要適用照這個沒有經完整程序的吧?因為我們同種同體的,所以我們讓他有例外條款,不用跑完臨床實驗程序,同種同...自己的啦,應該講的講白話文,自己的細胞在緊急救命的時候,我們允許他做細胞治療,不用經過什麼這個實驗階段,這個是合理的嘛。"},{"start":3461.01,"end":3489.873,"text":"那現在別人的要拿來要打到治療緊急的時候危害很大迫不及待這種狀態要不要開放別人的也可以打我是建議還是開放你開放的時候如果又要搭配第幾條我們還有一個是完全連安全性試驗都沒有那是第8條裡面連安全性試驗你都沒有"},{"start":3492.305,"end":3493.346,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3509.798,"end":3523.526,"text":"我想是這樣子,我們先把這個問題的本質先釐清一下。現在是第一個就是說必須要人體試驗通過。我的意思就是原則上是這樣子。"},{"start":3524.566,"end":3551.42,"text":"那只有第8條的兩個情形需要去做就不必完全完成或者是說不必進行那第8條的部分的話有兩款嘛第一款的部分就是剛剛林書文委員在講的第一款的部分的話就一般我們俗稱的恩慈那如果說恩慈療法本來我們是說他用他這一條要申請的時候是每一個個案要去做審查"},{"start":3552.503,"end":3557.784,"text":"為什麼呢?因為我們器官移植都是用別人的"},{"start":3579.215,"end":3580.276,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3607.41,"end":3608.91,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":3637.792,"end":3639.353,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3667.193,"end":3668.794,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":3687.667,"end":3715.157,"text":"那等到說真的有實際上部長昨天才剛剛有一則新聞才剛出來那個基因用豬的這個基因改造的那個腎臟移植病人三個月內心肌梗塞死亡他們現在正在查我相信你有看到這個那個的確他還在做臨床試驗那這可能是一個失敗的案例啦那這一個部分也就是說我們要不要開"},{"start":3717.077,"end":3742.588,"text":"這個是我是覺得就是說委員大家的一致來做決定在行政計劃這邊並沒有堅持說疫種一定在現階段要開並不堅持但是我要把利害關係講清楚就是說如果說疫種我們在這裡是不開那未來就會通通跑到研究去了"},{"start":3743.248,"end":3769.667,"text":"那研究如果真的是有成效的話那他就不屬於再生醫療他是變成不屬於再生醫療因為我們現在是定義的條款我們說定義再生醫療或再生醫療製劇不包括使用異種的細胞那未來如果真的有這樣子的細胞可用的時候他就不屬於再生醫療而是回到一般的醫療去那這樣子是不是有比較好"},{"start":3771.152,"end":3798.821,"text":"這個研究齁你這個我們講說未來的研究多久這第一個你完全都不知道第二個我在執行的時候我有跟你提到你一直講人體試驗齁我個人覺得我最後一定會提齁我們要專屬的再生醫療法醫療的那個人體試驗你的人體試驗內容是什麼不是等四個字就把它蓋掉了人體試驗本身我就就很擔心齁這部分的話齁在我們的那個第因為這個都相關啦我也不知道放到哪一條"},{"start":3799.761,"end":3813.334,"text":"第七條的立法說明裡面我們有提到如果說各位委員手上如果有資料的話可以看一下如果沒有的話也沒有關係我在這邊稍微提示一下"},{"start":3814.502,"end":3834.683,"text":"那有關於再生醫療也就是說像美國那邊有一個基因與細胞治療學會他們就簡稱叫ASGCT他對於這個這種基因治療或細胞治療他們是這樣分的沒有另外另創一個再生醫療的這樣的名詞"},{"start":3836.144,"end":3859.541,"text":"但是我們的再生醫療指的就是這一類那有關這一類的人體或者是臨床試驗的流程他有定了一個指引在那裡面的話比方說比較明顯的一個就是他沒有第一期也就是說他的臨床試驗第一期跟第二期是合在一起算的"},{"start":3860.307,"end":3885.38,"text":"因為如果是藥品的第一期通常指的是找健康人然後去試那個藥品的度子然後要找出他的安全性還有他的安全劑量但是在這種再生醫療的話我們不可能去找一個健康人把他的細胞抽出來然後到實驗室去做不管是基因或者是說那個"},{"start":3888.903,"end":3900.311,"text":"這些基因工程或者是其他的這種處理全部的您講的會文字化嗎?還是您在說明?因為第7條有那個立法說明我們是放在立法說明我們還是要反對一種議題那個有講過是不是先讓那個還沒有講過的委員先講一輪好不好?"},{"start":3913.661,"end":3926.927,"text":"接下來請邱議瑩委員還有王振旭委員。先邱議瑩委員。王委員。謝謝主席。我想剛剛在爭議或者是討論的就是有關於這個疫種。"},{"start":3928.744,"end":3952.471,"text":"一種當然現在是無法見到我們目前的執行理念不過我個人的建議這是一個前瞻性的立法那我們很期待的就是未來未來再生醫療對國人的健康或者是疾病的治療是有他需要更關注的地方所以如果我們立法能夠把這樣的精神納進來"},{"start":3954.091,"end":3977.431,"text":"在未來在執行的時候必須要嚴謹的來做管控這樣才能夠達到這個前瞻性立法的重要的意義以上補充好 邱議瑩委員我謝謝主席我接續一下王醫師剛的談話我們八年前第一次在討論在安置劑的時候其實那個時候沒有所謂的外密體這件事情"},{"start":3978.272,"end":4003.952,"text":"所以剛剛王玉敏委員在問說在再生醫療的那個定義裡面外秘體算不算在這個裡頭那我剛剛其實也問了一下秀美所以在再生的細胞及其衍生物可以涵蓋外秘體可是對於很多執行的比如說生技業者來講他覺得這樣的定義其實還是不夠明確所以才會希望你們在立法說明裡頭把有可能相關的這些衍生物把它放進去"},{"start":4004.574,"end":4027.297,"text":"那我要說的就是說八年前在開始討論再生醫療跟再生醫療之際的時候還沒有外密體所以我們不知道要把外密體放進去就如同現在沒有一種的東西沒有一種的產品是在現在的再生醫療裡頭可以做如果有也可能還在試驗的階段但是我們如果現在就直接明文的把它排除掉的話"},{"start":4028.178,"end":4052.771,"text":"其實未來有可能就會像部長所說的他就不會算在再生醫療裡面因為再生醫療我們已經把這個東西把它排除掉了所以是不是大家考慮一下我們現在不限縮任何的醫學發展的可能性但是不代表他不需要做人體試驗不需要安全有效就可以直接施作在人體上就可以直接施作在我們的醫療上面所有的施作都還是必須經過很嚴謹的"},{"start":4054.472,"end":4056.313,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4081.243,"end":4082.284,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4108.018,"end":4126.065,"text":"國際上發展的腳步還有目前這個醫療的未來性。」您數分委員。要這樣子說也並不是不行。我覺得要有個限制就是第8條的例外條款這個是不能夠適用這一種、一種。"},{"start":4127.654,"end":4128.495,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4148.169,"end":4149.99,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":4173.894,"end":4174.374,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4188.653,"end":4210.743,"text":"對,那我要跟你講就是說,像美國他們的制度其實也都要經過安全性測試啊。即便是這個緊急狀況的使用的這個技術也是要經過安全性測試的啊。那所以就是說,抱歉,如果我們限縮回來談疫種這件事情啊,就直接談啦。那就是我自己認為是第八條"},{"start":4212.003,"end":4240.071,"text":"不許就可以了,不許就勉強走正常程序啦。我不曉得我想的對不對,但是我覺得這樣好像蠻合理的。風險,第八條就是風險,排除我就最後一個機會要企劃的,不會特別企劃的。譬如說,你不會特別,你再把那個風險管再把它放下去。這樣,這個真的是可能就風險上再加風險。我覺得對第八條,使用第八條去治療的人來講,風險太大了。"},{"start":4244.196,"end":4244.596,"text":"陳昭芝委員"},{"start":4274.091,"end":4300.844,"text":"那是要明文寫進去寫在母法不要在立法說明了就是在母法寫得非常清楚那我這就可以討論了可以討論部長你應該去瞭解為什麼應該醫師要去瞭解為什麼日本韓國不敢呢?迄今不敢了人家已經做了幾年了他的風險管理制度人家為什麼迄今不敢有所謂的這個一種一體呢?人家做那麼多還不敢?我們很勇敢嗎?阿不然你健保都比照在日韓喔"},{"start":4305.06,"end":4305.28,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4325.003,"end":4353.011,"text":"第一項的第一款。」我們也說要主案申請也要繳交資料而不是是說你想試就試的這件事情我覺得在整個制度設計第三條裡面的定義我們會希望給大家一個比較寬廣的空間因為從動物實驗到人體實驗它中間需要做轉移如果我今天人體這一塊的後面的臨床應用看到沒有前景我連動物實驗我可能只是發表學術論文"},{"start":4353.991,"end":4354.611,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4373.723,"end":4393.799,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事件的那個是議題的然後那我們的國人的病人有沒有機會碰到這麼嚴重的情況下面的時候可以試試看所以我們才會是說在這樣子的一個狀況下面的時候盡可能的把通案的部分都要更完整的一個review"},{"start":4394.019,"end":4416.652,"text":"科學證據,可是對於緊急狀況的時候,這個能夠有嘗試權的這件事情是我們在這樣子的一個法制上面特別希望創製出來的。以上。好,王委員,王崔旭委員。是,好,謝謝。我想會同意剛剛司長還有署委員所提到的,在第8條的時候我們會把這個第一款"},{"start":4417.953,"end":4418.173,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4450.544,"end":4450.964,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4465.944,"end":4480.153,"text":"我記得美國今年FDA年初就通過了一個治療帕金森臨床實驗完成的一個藥物到現在衛福部都還沒有許可美國已經通過了衛福部也沒有許可衛福部什麼時候要許可也不知道"},{"start":4481.934,"end":4484.955,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":4508.072,"end":4508.433,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4518.24,"end":4519.061,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4549.741,"end":4576.001,"text":"邱議瑩謝謝主席我們是不是把它再更聚焦一點如果說剛剛我聽司長的談話好像你們也不拒絕剛剛淑芬委員的建議你如果說在第8條危急的狀態底下我們先暫時把所謂的異種先排除但是在整個再生治療的定義上面我們其實沒有去特別限縮所謂的異種細胞"},{"start":4577.982,"end":4603.38,"text":"我不曉得這樣子陳昭芝委員能不能接受那或者是在立法說明的部分我們再把它補充強調進去那這樣是不是會比較更更完整一些也兼具這部法令像王委員所講的他其實是有一些前瞻性但是在安全性上面在操作的安全性上面我們用第八條去規範他第三條不提及但第八條一定要提及要要正面提及這件事情部長"},{"start":4604.3,"end":4623.151,"text":"我再稍微做一點補充,即使在美國、歐盟的這些可能也包括日本、韓國的相關的法規裡面在指再生醫療時候的定義並沒有把一種排除剛剛同仁有給我這一個資料"},{"start":4624.171,"end":4639.46,"text":"不過我們很多事沒有比照美國美國有代孕30年你同意了嗎你也是不同意啊那另外一件事啦齁我只是說在法規上面的定義那再生的醫療的技術的話並沒有排除一種第一個是這樣子"},{"start":4640.36,"end":4662.84,"text":"第二我剛剛也是再重申一下如果我們在再生醫療法裡面把這個異種細胞的治療把它排除掉所以以後的話如果用異種的細胞去做治療假設說未來真的是有這種臨床試驗成功的它就會變成跑到醫療法去"},{"start":4663.683,"end":4692.719,"text":"那醫療法的跟在我們這一部再生醫療法或致濟條例裡面的差異點是怎麼樣我們這邊比較嚴我們這邊是比較嚴的那包括我們看後面的法則其實都比醫療法的法則是重的所以可能就是說你想要去禁止但是在這個定義性的條文把它排除的話反而可能造成"},{"start":4694.049,"end":4695.271,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4714.79,"end":4743.23,"text":"那一些所謂的未來的療效的這些數據我們也收集不到但是在再生醫療法裡面的話是有我們等可能後續我們會討論到所以我會比較贊成就是說OK在這一個定義性的條文的第三條裡面不要去排除但是第八條的那所謂的恩恥的部分的話要把這個使用異種細胞排除這我沒有意見"},{"start":4744.631,"end":4747.315,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4762.399,"end":4785.002,"text":"第四條的部分昨天在討論的過程當中我們會希望支持院辦所以我們這邊也沒有特別在做補充然後因為陳昭芝委員那邊的話是希望在第一項增加就是說能夠做再生醫療倫理的相關的規範的部分的話那就提起各位委員的討論我在這裡是有提到說"},{"start":4787.164,"end":4787.564,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4806.633,"end":4807.394,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4826.934,"end":4827.275,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4838.789,"end":4859.129,"text":"所以這個三律醫療規範我認為是一定要再寫一次。那這個部分也是由衛福部來處理就可以了。但是未來的發展政策也不能帶幾句嗎?你有政策你才會有後續的這些法跟這個管理啊。那我們也不知道特管法兩個會不會干擱啊?會不會就怎麼辦?"},{"start":4859.79,"end":4860.13,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4873.215,"end":4874.056,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":4895.515,"end":4911.622,"text":"再生醫療發展法草案案 條款 等確認再生醫療法通過之後我的特管辦法裡面那一張其實我們就會同時公告會把它取消市長這個有寫出來嗎在你們內部有寫出來嗎因為說我才寫說希望中關機關"},{"start":4912.682,"end":4915.466,"text":"再生醫療發展法草案案 規定再生醫療發展政策及推動計劃。」"},{"start":4930.566,"end":4958.764,"text":"同一篇我就是廢止我們原本的那一章因為在我們的設計裡面特管辦法細胞資料他是特別的一章在處理裡面的聯動性跟其他的條件的聯動性其實是獨立的比較容易處理這是在行政程序裡面本來就可以處理的這是第一點第二點委員在講的是說政策發展的這一邊因擬定再生醫療發展政策及推動計劃因為本來你就只有推動計劃對我在前面加了一個因擬定"},{"start":4960.185,"end":4979.096,"text":"這是請你們來擬定嘛我想這一個條文我們的意見大概是這樣第一個就是說陳委員所提到的那個要把再生醫療倫理規範要去制定然後由中央主管機關來訂定"},{"start":4980.297,"end":4999.962,"text":"此事我認為我們可以接受,這就是第一項的部分。第二項的部分的話,本來我們是只有推動計劃,要去定論發展政策。這個文字上面也...那第四條就請接受民眾黨版本吧,我們就是...等一下,我把事情講完。"},{"start":5002.544,"end":5025.424,"text":"這一個文字的部分的話其實也可以接受但是第三個部分的話就委員在提到了未來如果說這個再生醫療法通過之後那我們會有第八條第一項的第二款就已經在執行的這一些特管辦法的這一個部分的話如果他的實現還沒有到那應該還可以繼續來執行"},{"start":5029.326,"end":5045.651,"text":"如果實現已經到了,他可能就必須要來依我們本法的12條來再重新做一個申請。這一個申請的話就是等於說再度我們把它審查合格,本來他的效期就到了。"},{"start":5046.831,"end":5071.678,"text":"議長你們一直強調前瞻前瞻前瞻就是要發展政策啊所以我說我那個政策的部分我可以接受我說這一部分我可以接受我只是在說明說未來特管辦法跟再生醫療法要怎麼樣來銜接的問題那這個是委員是可以不用擔心因為我們會讓行政院院去做處理因為特管辦法是屬於醫療法所"},{"start":5073.8,"end":5076.607,"text":"受權去訂定的執法規。」所以"},{"start":5078.114,"end":5079.314,"text":"委員可以用附帶決議來提醒"},{"start":5105.899,"end":5120.143,"text":"如果這本法通過之後,那特管辦法在執行當中以及未來怎麼樣落日的話,要求我們去把它制定好。如果有這樣一個附帶決議的話,我們也可以接受。"},{"start":5127.509,"end":5149.728,"text":"那那個主席我是不是具體建議因為剛剛部長的回答就是說他們可以同意加入陳昭芝委員的所謂的這個再生醫療的發展政策的這幾個文字嘛所以是不是144這邊把那個文字順一下我們就把它加上去那至於特管辦法跟再生醫療法的這個銜接"},{"start":5151.229,"end":5177.615,"text":"到底特管辦法什麼時候要落日那個施行細則的部分是不是我請那個黨衡助理我們現在寫一個附帶決議那待會讓大家看一下我們就也並帶通過好不好也有附帶決議三位委員連署的附帶決議對對對因為剛好就是我們我們準備一下那個第四條的附帶決議那等一下也讓主席採視一下好"},{"start":5180.134,"end":5186.54,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":5215.157,"end":5223.785,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜,請審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案件事宜,請審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5240.73,"end":5266.843,"text":"第8條我先講一下啦主席我剛剛已經講了這個美國的right to try的那個法案其實也是要求要有這個安全性的這個前提所以並不是完全免這個人體試驗那我也講過國內的生技公司現在在做細胞治療的其實很多也都是已經有取得安全性的這個試驗的程序了"},{"start":5267.483,"end":5267.823,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5285.798,"end":5293.023,"text":"最小操作的範圍內我覺得也是蠻值得討論的那依照美國的這個規範的最小操作範圍當然就是在講說這個再生治療就他必須要功能構造不能改變然後像美國的定義就是說他的最小操作範圍的定義就針對結構組織製造並為改變組織原有相關特性例如說與組織的重建修復或替代功能有關第二"},{"start":5313.055,"end":5314.637,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":5333.177,"end":5356.297,"text":"我講這麼多就是第一個安全性要確立但在不用完成所有的程序的那個臨床試驗但他的安全性要確立第二個就是說安全性確立以外他的技術也不要的限縮在於說不要在最小操作範圍範圍裡面那我們是不是也應該要限縮在最小操作範圍裡面這樣子讓風險"},{"start":5358.699,"end":5359.62,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5381.42,"end":5382.981,"text":"陳昭芝委員陳昭芝委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":5398.79,"end":5399.771,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5419.125,"end":5419.846,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5453.826,"end":5465.25,"text":"因為剛剛淑芬委員已經提到第8條那第8條因為那個東西本身是一個概念嘛一個是非常主觀的無生命無責任重症等等等等無適當的那這個要有一些指引讓專家來審嘛"},{"start":5467.638,"end":5486.312,"text":"當然啦,這個有關於恩恥的這部分的話,那要怎麼樣審,有哪一些criteria,有哪一些標準要去處理。對對對,我知道,但是不是寫在委員的意思,並不是要寫在這個母法裡面嘛。所以應該不需要寫在母法啦。"},{"start":5487.68,"end":5511.342,"text":"但是母法不會很複雜啊?不會很複雜?因為大家關注,這幾年大家關注就是這一點。不是,剛剛委員在提到的說,那要申請恩慈,就是說第一項第一款的部分,要去做申請的時候,要提供什麼樣的資料嗎?剛剛委員在講的是這樣子。那其中有一個就是,剛剛委員提到的第一個是說,那個"},{"start":5512.643,"end":5517.065,"text":"對,後面那些應該都不會有太大問題傳統治療無效是證明這個會有問題這等於就是說我們在做這個的話就排除掉部長你的條款自己寫國內尚無適當的藥品你自己寫上去啦是啦是啦"},{"start":5538.423,"end":5557.318,"text":"這就國內沒有,但是這個並不表示說傳統治療就是無效。也就是說國內沒有這個,比方說在美國那邊已經可以執行的,他們也已經這個所謂的像是查案登記已經通過的,但是我們國內還沒有。"},{"start":5559.378,"end":5560.058,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5579.57,"end":5599.521,"text":"我昨天有講不是一定要都試過你在申請這個動作的時候你要有一些說法但是也許用說傳統治療無效之證明這件事我自己可以討論但是我是比較不建議把這種細節的東西寫在裡面國內尚無適當這個才是模糊咧"},{"start":5603.803,"end":5604.744,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5629.966,"end":5630.606,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5645.174,"end":5668.513,"text":"或免完成人體試驗免進行或這四個字劃掉我覺得這個是有道理啦就是說我們所有的不管是在治療危急的狀態底下某個程度上他還是會完成幾個人體試驗才能才能做嘛所以你的免進行可能會引起誤解就是說你這個療法這個技術可能完全都沒有經過任何的人體試驗就直接施作"},{"start":5669.494,"end":5669.794,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5685.806,"end":5713.921,"text":"舉例來講比如說當時我們在談那個日本的則芳樹醫教授在處理心臟層片的時候他在幫平剛立美做完心臟層片當時他一年做了五例還六例日本就直接讓他免完成人體試驗就直接發給他這樣的一個合格的藥證顯示他的心臟層片技術是有效的那那個是治療危急的狀態日本就會用這樣子的方式去處理"},{"start":5714.821,"end":5715.321,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5733.775,"end":5734.115,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5750.908,"end":5752.348,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":5774.23,"end":5792.918,"text":"陳昭芝委員我現在讀第8條我現在看紙板的我現在有在看也是經標準治療無效後你用的是標準治療或經所有人沒有反應那現在請問部長這個東西要拿出文件吧他申請的時候是用概念還是用文件呢"},{"start":5794.532,"end":5802.521,"text":"這應該是一個說明啦不是證明啦因為是醫療機構去做申請嘛醫療機構必須要對於這個所謂的那個標準治療無效去做說明但是你要說證明的話這有點困難"},{"start":5813.795,"end":5815.277,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5828.592,"end":5829.012,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5846.38,"end":5847.141,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":5872.583,"end":5886.362,"text":"對阿,申請文件是一定要的。因為恩,對,因為恩慈療法以前是,這樣是給廠商阿,我知道給廠商阿。對,對,對不起,就是說我剛剛在跟那個陳,陳教育委員在,在argue的事情,不是說,"},{"start":5887.603,"end":5907.139,"text":"我反對說一定是要標準治療那沒有反應的時候再來做恩賜我的意思是說不要有那個證明啦因為你要提出說這個傳統醫那個或標準治療無效的證明沒有一個醫生敢這樣開啦"},{"start":5909.003,"end":5922.96,"text":"我沒有強調那個部分我現在看那個文字OK我只強調說你們會落實而且有申請資料所以他一定要把這一個申請資料送過來其中就是他要去說明說為什麼他認為那個傳統的資料無效"},{"start":5928.386,"end":5954.815,"text":"所以這個我們就有共識了那第二點就是說這一個所謂的那個免進刑要把它劃掉我是覺得這個大家再思考一下因為這種恩恥的部分的話如果說把那個免進刑劃掉的話就是那你要用恩恥的必須在國內這個已經進行人體試驗只是還沒有完成"},{"start":5955.855,"end":5972.249,"text":"那文字上面就會變成就是說那下流情形之一者免完成那也就表示說他一定有人理事業在進行當中那我們現在在想的為什麼選免進行就是說可能國外已經有了"},{"start":5972.589,"end":5990.074,"text":"只是說在國內沒有人做人體試驗也沒有人來申請查案登記所以這時候就國內沒有這一個那其實在藥品的情形也是類似所以在這一個部分的話我是建議就是說我們可以在文字上面做一點修正"},{"start":5991.354,"end":6013.331,"text":"就是說免進行或免完成人理試驗那所謂的免進行是什麼樣的狀況就是說那國外已經有或者是他已經完成那你那個立法說明的部分去補充說明嘛是不是這樣或者說他已經通過了啊"},{"start":6014.758,"end":6015.479,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6035.469,"end":6036.41,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6058.297,"end":6059.177,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6076.114,"end":6088.639,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三"},{"start":6104.51,"end":6105.611,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6133.99,"end":6158.143,"text":"但是因為看不到啊那個表示有機制在那個立法說明可以表示就看看委員如果我們可以在立法說明寫的話就文字就不怕說太冗長了但是如果要寫到母法裡面去的話那文字他昨天一直在問這件事你在這裡講的是免完成的意思是什麼就國內有在做"},{"start":6159.105,"end":6184.867,"text":"要做到哪裡啊?還沒完成啊。對啦,要做到哪裡?我在講的是要做到哪一個階段啊?在這裡的話我們是…免進行我們要意思是說國外已經有在做的我們就直接免進行可是那免…或者是那你要想想看搞不好我們台灣的生技界也有自己專屬的技術然後要超越國外的那它免完成但是免完成是要做到哪一個階段?"},{"start":6186.457,"end":6200.871,"text":"這可以大家來考慮看看啦那也許就是因為我剛剛提到過嘛這種細胞治療這些的技術齁在做人體試驗的時候是一二期並一起進行嘛所以大家要嚴格一點就是完成二期"},{"start":6202.071,"end":6219.876,"text":"三期還沒做還沒做完可是我們要不要這樣我很具體的建議就是說免進行或這四個字拿掉我們就直接就是免完成了嘛那我們立法說明欄裡面就講這個免完成的涵蓋的意義有哪些就在立法說明欄裡面講清楚"},{"start":6222.932,"end":6240.554,"text":"如果你覺得母法裡面放進去太冗長的話立法說明欄裡面要把這個東西也要講清楚啦就是說你要經過到二期的那個國外是國外也是二期我們就是通通都二期這樣子二期可以接受"},{"start":6242.89,"end":6268.541,"text":"那這樣會比較嚴格啦,這樣如果是這樣定的話,那恩賜…啊你剛才說國外的這樣啊,那會比較嚴格?不是啊,不是啊,我的意思是說,如果我們定在二期,已經完成二期的才可以做恩賜,不管它是國內免完成或是國外免進行,那這樣子的話,其實是條件是比較高的。"},{"start":6270.683,"end":6270.823,"text":"邱議瑩委員"},{"start":6288.001,"end":6300.406,"text":"那個部長如果說你所謂的免完成人體試驗我們要把它很完整的寫限縮在二期的話那其實就會失去這一條的意義了"},{"start":6301.721,"end":6325.038,"text":"那如果說您剛剛最後面的那個文字比如說國外免進行或國內免完成那個委員們可以接受的話那其實他的空間其實是有的那也會比較符合這一條在危急的狀態底下來操作再生醫療的這樣的一個精神那請看看委員們可不可以接受這樣的文字修正"},{"start":6325.939,"end":6340.221,"text":"但是如果你要把它很清楚寫要完成二期的話那真的會失去我們這個在緊急操作的情況之下的這個醫療治療我可以問一下就是第8條事實上它就是一個例外條款"},{"start":6340.782,"end":6360.562,"text":"那例外條款可不可以就是採取許可?我覺得它最重要的精神不是在前面的文字,而是主案跟你們申請核准。那個核准的程序我覺得才是最重要。這一條等於是授權讓中央主管機關你要一案一案,因為它是例外,所以必須由你們,由專家學者來做比較嚴謹的。"},{"start":6362.17,"end":6386.102,"text":"申請的程序。」所以坦白講在前面去強調免進行或免完成我覺得那個意義不大這一條事實上應該要把因族案向中央主管機關申請核准使得為之這個是這一條應該是最重要的精神它應該是開宗明義放到最上面如果要把那個免進行或免完成人體試驗整個拿掉的話我覺得"},{"start":6390.25,"end":6390.691,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6406.534,"end":6409.895,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6430.422,"end":6430.722,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6446.519,"end":6450.42,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":6475.084,"end":6475.504,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6495.871,"end":6518.161,"text":"就是他才是一個嚴格的審查方法。主案審查要有一些審查規則啦。是啊。我覺得重點是他必須得要主案審查。這個才是這個例外的這個。他本來就主案審查了啦。現在我要講的意思是說第8條的例外條款哪裡例外?例外在哪裡?因為沒有第8條大家都第一個要確認安全性。第二個要確認療效。第三個要確認沒有這個不良反應的這個問題很嚴重的。"},{"start":6524.784,"end":6540.776,"text":"那我們今天讓他例外是在最後面要求命我就只要是安全的到底有沒有療效那不良反應會不會很大那我們就沒有那麼苛責反正我們實驗看我們就治療看看嘛"},{"start":6541.937,"end":6560.095,"text":"那所以在這裡只要求一個就是安全啦對我來講那你說竹案審查那些專家要審查什麼內容我覺得這個是這個指引怎麼定交給衛福部去定可能定出來大家也不放心那最好的方法當然就是照制度規範來嘛"},{"start":6561.536,"end":6576.581,"text":"但是制度規範當然就是臨床正規長度就臨床一二三四起這樣子做下去但我們這裡又擺脫正常的制度規範那所以我們才說我都踩著說那只要安全上的確定這是最基本的"},{"start":6579.342,"end":6582.986,"text":"國外免進刑國外免進刑你在立法說明欄裡面要講你具體告訴我們比如說以美國來講"},{"start":6594.757,"end":6615.082,"text":"國外他們是通過什麼階段然後就可以治療,他們是美國是怎麼規範好了這樣子講,因為我們知道的right to try,試看螞蟻法案,它就是right to try嘛,但是它也是安全上的要求,那這個東西精神要放進來,我們當然就可以同意。"},{"start":6616.002,"end":6618.564,"text":"國內免完成,我們還是要對他要求說那你要做到什麼程度這樣子那立法說明欄裡面也要講清楚所以你要具體回答美國是怎麼規定的"},{"start":6639.137,"end":6639.778,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6656.929,"end":6657.389,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6673.885,"end":6699.234,"text":"再生醫療法草案案案件事宜,此文字加進去的話就會變得是說我必須在定義欄裏面還要去定義一個叫做最小操作因為這個在我們國內的法規裏面就是在這樣子的一個再生技術裏面並沒有看到一個最小操作所以加或不加這邊的話就提請委員討論在我們原本的細胞治療裏面他就已經講了細胞治療我們通過的就已經是使用無結合藥物之人體細胞組織物"},{"start":6701.355,"end":6703.217,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6724.637,"end":6725.878,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6756.144,"end":6757.125,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6782.461,"end":6808.813,"text":"所以兩個本來在處理過程當中小規模客製化讓病人比較快得到就是說相對的技術他的要求的製程的部分其實在管理部分也就是我們跟日本一樣就是走雙軌技術跟成品類那我可以再請教一下但你講這樣子是美國包括治療和這個治劑全部都要完成所有臨床實驗"},{"start":6809.738,"end":6812.08,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":6833.379,"end":6859.294,"text":"再生醫療法草案案案在人體研究法裡面的架構下面的時候才有針對藥品發展的這邊才會有那個像趙志偉委員一直很熟悉的那個所謂的臨床試驗這是那個臨床試驗的中文翻譯他是based on我們的藥事法可是藥事法裡面我們在講的全部裡面要去規範的他是在人體研究法裡面所以人體研究法裡面我們醫療法裡面也有規定就是說"},{"start":6862.156,"end":6865.88,"text":"再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":6878.331,"end":6894.005,"text":"再生醫療法草案案案件事宜和醫療機構才能夠做因為後面會產生人體這一塊的一個病人的損害病人權益的保障的這樣子的大架構所以雙軌管理的部分並不是我們醫療技術再生技術這邊就不要人體事業我覺得聽你這麼一說的話沒什麼大困難就是把四個字劃掉沒什麼問題耶就是第一項裡面的第一項裡面"},{"start":6906.426,"end":6907.567,"text":"第二行免進行禍"},{"start":6921.291,"end":6942.045,"text":"因為照道理說不管是日本因為我們跟日本已經走在世界的最前面了啦聽起來已經像是這樣子台灣跟日本是超越美國了啦那這些技術其實從美國來的這個美國研究最多的但我們的規範管理已經超越美國的開放和先進啦"},{"start":6943.205,"end":6971.628,"text":"讓部長說明一下那我的意思是說那部長其實這個四個字劃掉沒什麼你就免完成人體試驗然後你再仔細的去規範因為我在這裡一直講就是安全上因為我們其實不要求療效要證明也沒有要求你說這個嚴重不良反應怎麼辦怎麼辦我們就是說你要這麼的先進這麼的創新反正就是實驗性治療啦實驗性的治療裡面那你至少安全要確保這是最基本的啦"},{"start":6973.781,"end":6992.36,"text":"兩件事情,第一個如果是按照所謂委員他講的要把免進刑這個拿掉的話,那就是在說明欄裡面我們必須要講說所謂的免完成人體試驗是包括在國內跟國外的,人體試驗不是在國內什麼?"},{"start":6996.398,"end":7021.254,"text":"就是說在國內的也就是說這個人體試驗不限於是只有在國內做在國外也在做人體試驗的也是同樣是免完成就可以來做國外會不會有比我們更進步的像東南亞或者是哪個國家他們是連那個因為這個回到剛剛嘛就是他還必須經過審查"},{"start":7023.882,"end":7047.136,"text":"另外一個就是說我還在這邊稍微做一點說明為什麼美國的制度我們會想要學習日本的制度的原因是美國它是產品來規範但是它在技術上面的話是完全交給臨床臨床醫師他們去做決定他們自己負責"},{"start":7048.26,"end":7060.911,"text":"所以美國沒有在管醫生的啦但是我們在這一種齁所謂的試驗性的齁這種這種醫療的部分的話其實包括傳統的醫療我們都管得比較嚴啦"},{"start":7062.116,"end":7062.996,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":7086.002,"end":7106.659,"text":"所以我們是覺得說以臺灣的制度來看的話也許美國這樣子一套的話是民眾會比較沒有信心所以我們認為還是雙軌都要管這是從以前醫療法美國醫療就法很大美國人是比我們很小心的不是這樣比喻的邱議瑩委員"},{"start":7110.827,"end":7135.729,"text":"我其實還想提醒各位委員這一條其實講的就是危險的狀況底下所以我同意剛剛王玉明委員講其實他的重點在竹案審查這一塊那我們前面寫的免進行或免完成人體試驗只是讓衛福部他有更多的裁量權去做竹案審查的這一個行為"},{"start":7137.13,"end":7137.691,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":7157.791,"end":7165.747,"text":"那我們如果讓衛福部有這樣的一個裁量權才符合我們在處理再生醫療法第8條的這個危急狀況底下"},{"start":7168.052,"end":7193.77,"text":"能夠讓病人可以得到治療。」所以主案審查才是這一條的基本精神當然我不排除大家的論點就是維持一定要安全這件事情但是請相信衛福部他們那種嚴格的精神而且我們還有一個所謂的審議委員會可不可以讓我講完好不好"},{"start":7196.618,"end":7212.55,"text":"可不可以讓我講完好不好?你不要我講話的時候你一直插嘴啦拜託拜託就是說在這種很危急的狀況底下如果我們又讓他更多的限縮的時候其實你是幫不了病人的"},{"start":7214.189,"end":7215.289,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":7240.516,"end":7246.924,"text":"讓專家學者能夠有更多的裁量權去依詢。」這是我對大家唯一的建議。謝謝。"},{"start":7251.626,"end":7275.215,"text":"我個人在醫院當藥劑科主任將近三年我辦過一千萬件的這個一千件的這個端案進口但是這不是說我們就是為了病人才有這條管道但是那個端案進口病人你現在看到正面這我有一線希望我們正是怕花這麼多錢幾百萬就買的希望是一場空因為這個希望是要有科學做佐證的"},{"start":7276.001,"end":7276.381,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":7302.857,"end":7303.798,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案"},{"start":7332.575,"end":7334.837,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":7356.67,"end":7382.022,"text":"十大先進國等等依據你們在處理草案進口就是為了像這個邱委員他講到病人要緊急進來我辦太平洋子山族我三天就把它辦進來啊三十年前啊三天我就把它太平洋子那是一個非常大的突破啊所以我覺得還是有方法不是空的不是空的那那個安全性還是有你們有個參考你們可以提啊其實這本來是你們的功課不是我們在教怎麼做"},{"start":7383.929,"end":7410.424,"text":"我是不是在這邊建議一下就是衛福部針對剛剛第8條的這個文字要怎麼修正是不是可以先部長可以可以做怎樣的調整最小操作範圍最小操作範圍最小操作不在此限制放在第一項我剛才有念過我剛才不是講美國那個定義嗎美國的定義"},{"start":7423.394,"end":7441.003,"text":"我補充一下因為我們當初在制定特管辦法的時候細胞治療的部分其實就已經參考美國最小操作這邊我們就把定義定為使用無結合藥物之人體細胞組織物重建人體構造機能或疾病治療之技術"},{"start":7442.243,"end":7465.737,"text":"然後那所以所以是說在要不要加入那個最小操作這件事情其實已經融入了然後所以在第8項第1第8條第1項第2款裏面在講的經我們核准經中央主管機關核准的再生技術其實在本法施行前的就是指責細胞治療技術由我們特管辦法所定定的其實已經內涵在裏面我做以上資料的補充"},{"start":7469.27,"end":7481.12,"text":"抱歉因為我沒有看恩慈療法的那個內容不過我剛才講說對美國來講美國這個依據這個21CFR1271.3的最小操作的定義是針對結構組織製成及為改變組織原有相關特性與組織之重建修復或替代功能有關那第二針對細胞或非結構"},{"start":7498.995,"end":7523.203,"text":"組織製成並未改變細胞或非結構組織的相關生物特性。」這樣子是一致的嗎?休息。好。"},{"start":7524.471,"end":7529.317,"text":"好,那我們先休息10分鐘好不好先休息10分鐘。"},{"start":7540.982,"end":7561.165,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三"},{"start":7561.865,"end":7563.186,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":7591.345,"end":7591.627,"text":"三）繼續審查委員"},{"start":8266.542,"end":8288.018,"text":"我們現在繼續開會,那剛剛第4條的部分,大家都同意嗎?你是不是文字的部分先念一下?我們現在回到第4條,部裡面建議的修正的內容第4條,我把文字念一遍。"},{"start":8289.639,"end":8302.85,"text":"第四條,中央主管機關應擬定在……不好意思,拿錯版本。第四條,再生醫療之執行應遵行再生醫療倫理規範。"},{"start":8305.205,"end":8321.922,"text":"尊守再生醫療倫理規範 其內容由中央主管機關公告之。第二項中央主管機關因擬定再生醫療發展政策及推動計劃並定期檢討修正以推動再生醫療。第三項"},{"start":8323.784,"end":8349.256,"text":"各級主管機關得要求相關機關構、學校、法人或團體協助前項計畫之推動。然後因為前面的條文新增了第一項所以我們後面的說明建於近年來國際上連續發生多體幹細胞研究及組織工程試驗的試驗數據或論文造假事件且再生醫療範疇涉及組織細胞捐贈及商業利益等議題為避免再生醫療與發酵或執行過程中越淪離"},{"start":8352.978,"end":8375.795,"text":"醫療倫理階限損害病的權益或人類尊嚴原於第一項明定之並授權將主管機關就再生醫療倫理規範內容另訂定並公告之以上。那是不是這個第4條就照行政院版修正通過。好。好。那再回到第8條。"},{"start":8377.489,"end":8394.858,"text":"第8條的立法說明我們還在處理還在處理是不是能夠先進行下面然後我們等一下把立法說明完善之後再來討論好那就第14條14條的部分的話我們在處理的的"},{"start":8398.891,"end":8400.691,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8418.856,"end":8445.648,"text":"細胞組織物的一個特性以及使用的風險還有安全性避免因為操作不當導致的偶然等風險在執行細胞操作的機構應該依據前述的情形符合相關的品質規範如人體細胞組織優養操作規範、藥物優良製造準則及西藥優良運銷準則。源於第四項授權中央主管機關就第二項與細胞操作相關事"},{"start":8446.488,"end":8457.787,"text":"事項與及與許可查核有關事項另訂定辦法規範之。」我們就新增了就是一些品質要求的一些文字在這邊。以上。淑芬委員。"},{"start":8461.53,"end":8476.627,"text":"昨天講很久就是說我再跟大家解釋因為就是說醫療機構要執行再生技術所以有培養細胞還有處理及保存的必要者可以委託外面的生技公司"},{"start":8477.828,"end":8506.977,"text":"那我在講是說再生醫療裡面其實最大一個風險來自於汙染所以我這裡講的並不是你們談的GMP或GTP這個事情我在講是說外面的生技公司或者是要做操作這個細胞培養的這種實驗室要有什麼樣的生物安全上面的這個規範嗎那我指的是說我們的實驗室的這個抱歉我忘了那個叫什麼"},{"start":8507.817,"end":8508.238,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8522.714,"end":8523.774,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8547.685,"end":8547.946,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8566.27,"end":8578.619,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事務委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案件事"},{"start":8593.51,"end":8593.89,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8621.866,"end":8622.666,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8640.271,"end":8641.352,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8662.452,"end":8686.649,"text":"第二集要求的是什麼?第三集是什麼?那我們要看要不要實驗室是應該要研究你在做細胞自備場所就等於是細胞自備場所因為你醫療機構委他去細胞培養了嘛所以細胞自備場所你要大量複製細胞再打回體內那你這個實驗室的規範你要不要定出來?"},{"start":8689.325,"end":8695.848,"text":"實驗室規範指的是細胞自備的場所,那剛剛所謂委員在講的那個是Biosafety的level,就是生活安全規範,那BS1、BS2,這到BS4,"},{"start":8714.456,"end":8740.621,"text":"這些生物安全規範的對實驗室的規範主要在規範的實驗室是他在操作病毒、細菌等等可能造成傳染病的這些對象所以他要去訂這個所謂的BioSafety的1、2所以這樣子上去的所以其實他要管的兩套制度是不一樣"},{"start":8741.361,"end":8765.517,"text":"在國內做Biosafety的檢核的是CDC,並不是SARS。SARS管的是細胞在處理的過程。當然在GDP或GMP裡面對於污染還是有一些管制的措施在規範裡面。"},{"start":8767.398,"end":8786.256,"text":"但是同時要去符合這兩個的話,可能這個還是要從長期,因為管制對象不一樣,因為這個細胞被制的不一定會使用到這些病毒。"},{"start":8787.657,"end":8788.458,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8806.455,"end":8821.1,"text":"等級一般在講說病毒不要外散但我們今天講的是病毒不要進來那第一等級就講說你必須要設有實驗工作台洗手台定有操作微生物操作規範定有標準微生物的操作規範類似這樣子"},{"start":8822.72,"end":8852.132,"text":"但是我們第二等級的他說你可能要必須要有生物安全櫃或其他物理性的防護機制那實驗室應有感染性廢棄物處理的標準流程那我們今天想的是說從外面進來的污染的程序他很具體像第二等級就是說你要這個進來的人要限制人員出入然後你醫學的監視的政策也要有進來然後操作的時候你可能要怎麼樣避免這個感染"},{"start":8853.134,"end":8854.375,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8875.014,"end":8875.314,"text":"二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩"},{"start":8892.145,"end":8894.887,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":8917.907,"end":8919.368,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":8935.937,"end":8937.998,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":8960.811,"end":8965.3,"text":"應該是說你定一個這個細胞自備場所的規範"},{"start":8968.186,"end":8992.403,"text":"我是建議這樣子在我們現在再加上去的這個立法說明裡面除了就是說如人體細胞組織優良操作規範要務優良製造準則以及需要優良運銷準則那到點必要時也是再加上必要時也應符合這個生活安全規範"},{"start":8994.104,"end":9004.351,"text":"因為那個必要是說因為你有操作那種具傳染性的病毒或者細菌等等的時候你才需要去符合那個生活安全規範啦"},{"start":9008.536,"end":9009.177,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9031.275,"end":9052.022,"text":"需以法律定制若權利義務明定法律明確性定下來那主管機關要做什麼我們授權給主管機關去做那主管機關可能必須訂定這個執行操作細胞操作的這個方法程序設施設備管理的相關管理辦法然後我們對他你後面有寫最後一項有寫嗎但是你最後一項講的是第二項"},{"start":9060.677,"end":9077.763,"text":"但是我們意思是說不是只有第二項或是第二項要怎麼樣再放一個什麼概念進去如果我們不要用這種大規模的不是大規模的GMP的概念啦GTP以外還要還有什麼可以嗎"},{"start":9092.646,"end":9094.69,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9106.138,"end":9126.7,"text":"好,好,沒關係好了。你立法說明欄裡面就放到你講的生物安全上的那個審核。對,好啦,部長你講的好。好,那14條就照院版通過,那立法說明就剛剛文字有做一個修正啦。要加入這個生物安全性的規範。好,就照剛剛這樣子做文字修正,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":9127.915,"end":9129.256,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9147.275,"end":9171.593,"text":"為什麼只有必要時?因為只有在這個實驗室裡面有操作到那種傳染性的病原體,比如說病毒、細菌等這些衛生物的時候,它才需要符合生物安全規範。並不是每一個細胞自備場所的這種實驗室都會用到那些,不一定。好不好?"},{"start":9176.519,"end":9185.611,"text":"因為你訂的話就要去查啦那我剛剛提到過嘛那個BS12所以那一個是CDC在查啦"},{"start":9186.861,"end":9206.531,"text":"您的困難是說隨時要去查執行面是不容易的?沒有就是說這個實驗室他要定期去查去做這種稽查但是又不是需要但我們不要用實驗室那麼高的強度的話就是你們自己定一個生物安全性的這個規範準則這樣子那個本來就是針對實驗室"},{"start":9208.752,"end":9233.06,"text":"所以我們有說P1、P2、P3這些實驗室的意識就是在這裏對啦那這裏是細胞自備場所細胞自備場所不一定會需要去操作到那種病原體我們比較大的風險是別人來汙染他那個在GDP、GMP本來就會有他就有這些規範去防止這種把病原體帶進來"},{"start":9235.066,"end":9235.907,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9246.752,"end":9274.488,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案案的19條部分的話是針對就是說取得那個算是檢體這一塊的提供者的這邊的權益的保障然後昨天在討論的過程當中的話我們這一次新的修正的話我念一下我們修正的地方在第19條的第一項的部分的話我們新增了治療特定人口群或未能以其他對象"},{"start":9275.148,"end":9275.608,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9298.766,"end":9299.767,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9321.764,"end":9331.279,"text":"知人或無意識行為能力之身體法役於第六項規定其同意書應經公證使生效力,以為保護效果之強化。」以上。"},{"start":9334.411,"end":9351.683,"text":"陳昭芝委員請問胎兒怎麼保護法?胎兒就是別人替他行使嗎?對,就是母親。母親替他行使。昨天我們有講到胎兒是胎兒本身還是講其他的?"},{"start":9353.199,"end":9380.511,"text":"昨天我們講的是這樣子啦是不是要就是說這個皮弓細胞的人不包括胎兒啦那如果是要這樣定的話那我們希望就是說那就不要把羊水幾袋胎盤算進來就是說因為那一些還是可以用而且事實上那個對胎兒的侵害性小昨天我們談到的是這個樣子"},{"start":9381.533,"end":9382.653,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9403.32,"end":9404.281,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9427.233,"end":9427.934,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9444.525,"end":9445.927,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9470.186,"end":9489.45,"text":"所以立法上面如果是委員們的意見一致的話就我們就不放胎兒但是我必須在那個立法說明去講說那羊水那個那個胎盤幾代就不在胎兒的範圍之內退嗎?蘇芬委員"},{"start":9501.612,"end":9528.348,"text":"這一條也是談例外條款嘛都必須要成年人才能提供但有什麼狀況可以例外那這個例外我是說我們治療特定人口群要治療是以疾病治療為核心的那且你在別的地方都沒有且不是或而且你未能以其他對象取代者如果你有其他成年人的對象可以取代我們幹嘛去取代而"},{"start":9529.008,"end":9550.644,"text":"但是為了治療疾病在未成年只有未成年身上才有的甚至到胎兒才有的我們就允許例外所以這個字應該是且不是或就是治療治療為限那在別的成人身上找不到了我們就開放我覺得應該是這樣子啦邏輯上是這樣子啦"},{"start":9566.726,"end":9588.001,"text":"我的意思是說這個治療是充分條件喔,必要條件喔,充分來必要。就是說一定是要基於治療。那第二個條件就是你其他成年人身上沒有,所以這兩個條件都必須滿足才可以。是這樣啦。"},{"start":9590.41,"end":9591.251,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9617.626,"end":9618.306,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9641.075,"end":9662.02,"text":"提供者把胎兒然後把那個羊水跟龍毛膜那個胎盤期待給他排除。對,就是可以用啦。對,OK。好,那就等你們的那個文字,然後那我們繼續往下,第24條。24條的,等一下。"},{"start":9671.428,"end":9672.39,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9679.189,"end":9680.109,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":9707.772,"end":9732.446,"text":"細胞庫設置機構取得第19條所定提供者或其他有同意權之書面同意前因告知事項,為避免取得者隨意變更原取的目的而為使用,對於剩餘組織細胞之後續處置或其他超出原取的目的之使用範圍均應事前告知,以保障同意權者之權益。"},{"start":9734.775,"end":9736.156,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具"},{"start":9753.052,"end":9761.558,"text":"再生醫療為輔助醫療不應為唯一治療模式為提供民眾做出適切之醫療決定願第四項授權中央主管機關就第一項廣告得刊播與不得刊播之內容等事項另定辦法規範之增加而這樣子的立法說明"},{"start":9783.212,"end":9786.573,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":9810.481,"end":9824.778,"text":"會確保醫療品質維護病人安全中央主管機關應分析統計第一項報告並每年公開其內容如何準資醫療機構加速總送案人數包含完整療程人數未完成"},{"start":9826.5,"end":9840.086,"text":"未完成療程人數、不良事件及臨床評估指標如傷口面積存活天數等相關醫療品質資訊,原為第三項規定。」我們做這樣子的一個補充。好,委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":9843.812,"end":9868.774,"text":"處分委員我們是不是提一個修正就是第二項裡面行政院版本是說這個包含案例數那效果不良事件及其他中央主管機關指定的事項這個效果可不可以再明確一點效果就是治療效果那再來講第三項講的是定期那我們講的是不是每年每年定期公開這個補充一句叫各醫療機構執行的結果報告"},{"start":9873.206,"end":9893.975,"text":"因公開的內容,定期是定多久?明定每年。因公開的內容是什麼?就是執行的結果報告。行政單位。第一個就是說,我們提到說效果的部分的話是可以同意的。"},{"start":9900.079,"end":9913.913,"text":"所謂的定期指的是每年那這個我們也可以同意但是各醫療機構這我必須要跟那個委員說明一下其實在過去我記得應該是美國那邊還是哪一個國家"},{"start":9917.416,"end":9939.159,"text":"他們也有這種report card的這種制度在醫院那個醫院的這個醫療品質也就是說各種比如說心臟手術啦什麼各種手術啦他的效果是什麼樣子這個是曾經有但是那個是在美國"},{"start":9940.16,"end":9962.531,"text":"台灣曾經也想要引進來但是經過這一個大家討論的結果是說不太不太妥當為什麼因為各個醫院可能為了要讓他的數據是美化的是比較漂亮的所以他就把那些複雜嚴重的病人就往外丟"},{"start":9963.792,"end":9968.054,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":9991.612,"end":10009.681,"text":"所以有一些數據其實我們在某一些那個醫療品質相關的這些結果的指標裡面我們也在預測方面也曾經收集發現就是說臺大就那個數字就"},{"start":10010.842,"end":10012.184,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10033.546,"end":10053.125,"text":"但是會有這樣子的風險。其實就說這個也曾經是討論過的。所以要不要到去公布個別醫院的各項這個這個再生醫療的成果,我會覺得這個可能大家要考慮一下。"},{"start":10056.207,"end":10056.728,"text":"三）繼續審查委員"},{"start":10072.566,"end":10074.247,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10093.362,"end":10117.537,"text":"其實你講了臺大那個核心醫院都是收罪人家不要收的癌症病人啦其實大家都還是有一些東西不是那麼簡單的說這樣的病人就是這樣的結果那個那個發表東西還要做專家的一些分析或是一些說明嘛你看癌症也有奇別嘛等等這些狀況所以部長其實我們很落後欸臺灣到底是進步國家還是落後到現在品質都不敢丟出來還在每天都用量來處理問題"},{"start":10118.618,"end":10118.958,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10149.278,"end":10149.578,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10175.387,"end":10175.987,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10202.319,"end":10223.472,"text":"你講的是有道理過去的啦但是那個不是在講這種比較像是實驗性治療但是講標準治療而且這屬性不一樣那我們今天你都知道說再生醫療其實是做一種輔助醫療而且昨天我們一直講它都是合併治療"},{"start":10224.953,"end":10244.039,"text":"合併治療、輔助治療、所以這不是標準療法,然後你在擔心說會變成人家都變成不做了,那我覺得你這個把一般正規醫療標準治療的這個例子舉到這個實驗性治療的這個再生醫療裡面,其實是我覺得這樣子直接推論過來,這個不恰當。再來就是說,"},{"start":10247.04,"end":10247.6,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10275.036,"end":10299.717,"text":"機構的品質醫療品質資訊公開機構執行的醫療品質這個醫療品質諮詢你有沒有看一下他的那個說明那個立法說明因為昨天討論的時候他有增加立法說明所以剛剛那個司長有唸的但我講的不是立法說明我們要人家公開需要法律明確性所以要法律保留原則"},{"start":10300.578,"end":10321.878,"text":"法律保留原則你叫我做可是你法律又沒有法律你單憑一個立法說明就叫我要做他可以打官司他是可以不用遵循的所以在這種狀況裡面因公開的內容加速總受案人數不良人數我們講的是相關醫療品質資訊我是希望到第一個"},{"start":10322.947,"end":10324.608,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10332.703,"end":10333.843,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10360.931,"end":10384.649,"text":"條文裡面的話現在有爭議剛剛講的那個第二項第二項的部分把治療效果寫上去之後沒有問題那現在有爭議是在第三項那第三項的每年公開這個也沒有問題定期把它改成每年這個也沒有問題"},{"start":10385.77,"end":10414.605,"text":"現在正義點就要最後一個醫療品質資訊這個部分的話要算到什麼樣那我是比較建議是這樣就維持這樣子的文字那事實上在公開這些資訊的時候我們是可以就是說在每年公開那大家去檢視檢視結果的話發現說我們需要更多的資訊公開那我們就每年來做調整"},{"start":10415.943,"end":10430.121,"text":"因為現在你會如果要去把這些各種的除了就要第二項的那些案例數啦效果治療效果啦不良事件啦那另外還有一個主管機關指定的事項嘛"},{"start":10430.748,"end":10431.508,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":10451.837,"end":10478.819,"text":"大概沒有辦法在這整個的條文裡面去把具姓名的說要公開的東西通通再寫在這裡我是覺得那樣的立法技術不是很OK啦原特管辦法"},{"start":10481.636,"end":10497.482,"text":"那我們先休息5分鐘好不好。"},{"start":10924.913,"end":10933.125,"text":"繼續開會那行政單位是不是再說明一下好接下來的不好意思24條24對"},{"start":10942.112,"end":10955.198,"text":"二、四條的部分的話剛剛跟林淑芬委員討論他是希望我們的那個文字的部分的話是照我們的那個在第一等一下齁在"},{"start":10958.573,"end":10981.189,"text":"我這樣講好了是不是有一個折衷的方法就是照特管辦法的最後一項但是我有一個修正就是醫療機構應該是每年定期公開然後醫療機構的治療效果及統計之醫療品質資訊以維護民眾權益然後說明欄就是要放你們的那些內容進去"},{"start":10988.36,"end":10990.681,"text":"每年要定期公開醫療機構的治療效果及統計的醫療品質資訊。"},{"start":11020.523,"end":11021.364,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11039.775,"end":11042.458,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11057.938,"end":11079.046,"text":"所以我們在這邊討論之後我們本來的本來只有在立法說明這邊就是講是說我們增加了及長期追蹤機制然後就並授權中央主管機關就通報的期限方式內容及其他應遵循事項這個部分做了一個強化的說明"},{"start":11080.366,"end":11101.712,"text":"則目前我們的版本是希望能夠這樣,然後剛剛在休息的過程當中,食藥署同仁有跟我們在做一個討論,也有跟委員這邊做一個討論。我先把一個建議的文字的部分的話念一次,然後等一下在那個螢幕這邊會做一個顯示。"},{"start":11104.667,"end":11105.748,"text":"醫療機構使用中央主管機關指定之再生製劑或執行再生技術斗點因"},{"start":11119.847,"end":11123.008,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":11138.14,"end":11159.113,"text":"再生醫療乃新興之專業領域具相當之風險性與不確定性為落實其安全監控及長期追蹤機制規定醫療機構通報嚴重不良反應情勢之異物以利中央主管機關評估相關風險 並授權中央主管機關就通報期限"},{"start":11160.274,"end":11187.759,"text":"端號方式內容及其他應遵循事項令定定辦法規範之以公遵循。第二項對有關藥商對再生製劑之安全監視另一再生醫療製劑條例規定辦理。我們建議新修正的條文是以這樣子的方式呈現,就是現在畫面上面呈現的以上。好,各位委員有沒有意見?沒有。那就照院板的修正文字通過。好。"},{"start":11191.195,"end":11212.248,"text":"謝寫。接下來是28條罰則的部分。罰則的部分的話昨天在討論的過程當中是希望把那個累計的這件事情所以我們在立法說明裡面增加了第二項也就是說如果違反第21條到22條廣告規定者由中央主管機關審著違反情節累計"},{"start":11215.11,"end":11243.969,"text":"違反次數及其他審酌因素作為罰還額度裁量之依據。」我們增加了這個文字說明。以上。各位委員有沒有意見?沒有齁。這個我問一下。那個這邊主要規範到22條的那個廣告規定齁。我現在比較擔心的就是其實會有蠻,其實現在已經有了齁。蠻多人就是在大打廣告了齁。甚至有的就是去籌資啊什麼股票啊說它是"},{"start":11244.448,"end":11247.95,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":11272.551,"end":11279.756,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）"},{"start":11301.701,"end":11327.15,"text":"一、現在的狀況是非醫療機構比醫療機構嚴重。所以非醫療機構的部分的話,我們拉高了法則就是兩百到兩千萬。所以它的成本這邊的增加其實就變得是比之前困難。第二件事情是必須透過事前的審查。也就是說法律通過之後那些廣告其實它都是不合法的。"},{"start":11327.87,"end":11328.531,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11347.327,"end":11373.104,"text":"在目前的機制下面對於非醫療機構我們的處罰這邊比較難以處理的必須透過新的法律我們來創造這樣子的一個算是法治環境才有效能夠遏止這樣子的一個不當的廣告的產生對我在問的是除了罰還額度增加之外會不會到什麼情況你是會有一個就是最重的就是停業就要求他"},{"start":11375.916,"end":11403.242,"text":"有第一項各款或前項第三款規定情形者除一該項規定處罰外並得公布其名稱這是第一個會公開那個場域第二個事情是有第一項第一款違規之情形令得沒入其執行再生醫療之設備及再生製劑"},{"start":11404.302,"end":11416.08,"text":"因為非醫療機構他不是按照我醫療機構這邊的管理可是當我陌入他的一個就是執行這些業務的一個設備的時候其實就如同他沒辦法再進行"},{"start":11417.475,"end":11418.556,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11444.477,"end":11458.226,"text":"因為其他醫療機構其實並不是衛福部管的因為他可能是公司啊那這樣會不會有什麼漏洞就是說他照賣啊反正我獲利很高管你你罰我200萬我繼續這是一次立法得連續處罰"},{"start":11466.233,"end":11494.876,"text":"昨天討論過程當中第一個是可以連續處罰第二件事情是我們把他的那個設備或自己全部沒收沒收以後其實對於這個所謂的公司好了他非法執行的部分的話他其實就沒有了可以繼續販賣的東西所以就等於是利用另外一個行政手段讓他沒辦法繼續開業的概念所以你們沒有辦法停業就是這邊可以去沒收設備但是"},{"start":11495.66,"end":11497.541,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11525.643,"end":11528.465,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11536.65,"end":11537.85,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11556.337,"end":11558.219,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":11584.195,"end":11589.479,"text":"昨天還有保留第29條是因為罰則的關係啊昨天29條是因為罰則的關係對有牽涉到前面的罰則的關係所以做一個保留"},{"start":11615.529,"end":11621.71,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":11644.542,"end":11648.746,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案 案件中有14條的罰則,是正確還是不正確?"},{"start":11666.826,"end":11674.67,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜等19人擬具《再生醫療法草案案件事宜等19人擬具《再生醫療法草案案件事宜等19人擬具"},{"start":11695.077,"end":11699.218,"text":"五、六、七條。我們先針對五、六、七的說明然後後面再處理剛剛保留的地方。然後第五條的部分。"},{"start":11725.168,"end":11747.617,"text":"第五條的部分的話我們就照大家的一個昨天討論的共識第五條的條文裡面我重新念一次中央主管金官應組成再生醫療審議會以下簡稱審議會致委員若干人就醫藥生技倫理法律相關專業學者專家及並有團體聘派兼職由衛福"},{"start":11751.858,"end":11776.315,"text":"衛生福利部部長或部長就委員中指定一人擔任召集人。第一項第二項前項審議會辦理下列再生醫療事項一、發展創新及推動政策之諮詢二、正確知識及觀念宣導之諮詢三、病人安全及醫療品質提升之諮詢四、人才培育推動之諮詢五、研究發展及獎勵補助之諮詢審議"},{"start":11778.797,"end":11805.675,"text":"六（再生製劑及再生技術管理之諮詢。七（何與再生製劑有付付款許可之審議。八（執行成效評估之諮詢。九（其他再生醫療相關事項之諮詢。第一項審議會之組成一是利益迴避及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。第一項審議會任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一。"},{"start":11806.115,"end":11811.057,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案〈再生醫療法草案案〉案"},{"start":11834.745,"end":11854.096,"text":"規定中央主管機關的相關的規定。」我們這邊的立法說明就增加了前面的。然後第二項是為確保審議會之公正性。源於第三項規定也就是相關的組成議事利益回避的應該遵循的事項。然後第三項是在講第四項的芯片比例的規定以上。"},{"start":11855.546,"end":11879.263,"text":"各位委員有一些嗎?呃,劉建國委員。不好意思,不好意思。部長還有各位聽聽看看好不好,因為這一個昨天我來有提修正動議,把委員有的那個修正動議有一些漏掉,我想這個大家的共識我就尊重了。不過法律,法律完了之後就法律相關專業學者,"},{"start":11881.784,"end":11900.825,"text":"法律相關專業學者,應該是法律及其他相關專業學者才對,這應該是文字的漏掉,不然你就變成法律相關,那就一大堆的法律相關都可以來了,這其一,所以這應該是漏掉文字。其二,請部長我們再審視一下,"},{"start":11905.808,"end":11929.334,"text":"這個這再生醫療審議會我我我我越看越怪怪的第一在第二項裡面的針對相關的事項我們的審議會的主要功能是在做什麼做第一發展創新推動政策諮詢第二正確知識諮詢第三病人安全嘟嘟嘟諮詢第四人才培育諮詢"},{"start":11930.334,"end":11958.808,"text":"第五研究發展獎勵補助諮詢審議。第一個審議出現了研究發展獎勵補助諮詢。第六個再生資技及再生技術管理諮詢。到了第六項才有一個審議而已。第七何與再生資技有付款許可之審議。這是第二個審議。"},{"start":11960.854,"end":11971.898,"text":"只有針對付款許可。第八執行成效評估諮詢。第九其他再生醫療相關事項諮詢。感覺就是諮詢委員會。他們在審再生醫療的技術再生治劑的事項。這個叫做再生醫療審議會。名不符實。"},{"start":11993.089,"end":11994.83,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12019.665,"end":12040.65,"text":"政府機構要負最後責任,就是說你不可以推給專家,就像藥嘛,你們都推給專家啊,啊專家要不要公開透明,就是說這樣子,所以我昨天本來也想第七項是要是只有學術研究啊那個可以用審議,但是那個實際治療我也是希望說用諮議,那那個意思是一個是做建議,一個是做最後的責任承擔啦,"},{"start":12043.01,"end":12043.23,"text":"王振興委員"},{"start":12061.403,"end":12063.865,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12089.861,"end":12112.787,"text":"邱議瑩還有意見嗎?我想聽部長說明因為王委員的看法我尊重不過基本上因為你在這9項裡面就是有兩個審議嘛這是明確的嘛我們又叫做再生醫療的審議會那你不去針對醫療的技術再生的試劑去審議你去做其他的審議這就...不然你笑成這樣我也不知道怎麼演"},{"start":12119.389,"end":12129.457,"text":"我還是再重複再說明一次本來在上一屆的時候那原本提出來的是通通都是諮詢各項都是用諮詢後來是在討論的時候"},{"start":12135.701,"end":12163.83,"text":"當時的邱太元委員認為說付付款許可的再生醫療字跡的話那應該要有人double check所以除了在再生醫療字跡那是在食藥署那邊有一個專家小組去去審查之後的話還是應該到這一個我們再生醫療法裡面的這一個這一個會議來再度去做審查"},{"start":12164.97,"end":12193.085,"text":"所以那時候就是很堅持就是說這一個部分付付款的這一個再生醫療資金的就是說付付款同意的這一個部分的話還要送到這邊來做審議所以那另外一個當然比較沒有那麼嚴重就是有關於那個獎勵發展這部分的話其實諮詢跟審議並沒有太大的差別"},{"start":12194.945,"end":12217.876,"text":"因為那個錢要獎勵要獎勵多少主案去做審查這個其實是比較沒有影響沒有那麼大但是因為第7款加入的關係就是付付款許可的這個加入的關係所以變成是要把本來我們也是寫的知醫會要改成審醫會那我想"},{"start":12220.997,"end":12247.268,"text":"這是當時邱委員很堅持的一點,在討論的過程當中他很堅持的一點。邱委員重要嗎?不是重要不重要的問題。我是講那個過程。因為邱志偉是這一屆才來,那是上一屆的。當然他重要,因為再過來他就是坐在這個地方跟你對話。"},{"start":12250.222,"end":12251.303,"text":"邱議瑩委員"},{"start":12276.024,"end":12280.708,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12306.159,"end":12308.021,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12323.951,"end":12324.652,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12346.024,"end":12365.884,"text":"那剛剛有那個文字修正是不是再念一下?不是不是我還是再講一下啦齁這個不是或啦是及其他啦齁那文字是這樣法律及其他法律及其他沒事沒事沒事我是提醒一下就是說"},{"start":12369.349,"end":12382.727,"text":"因為現在在審的是薛部長未來那個邱部長是不是如期可以到任我們都很難去預估嘛不是不是這個"},{"start":12384.028,"end":12402.435,"text":"是在這個任期要去學部長的任內而且部長是最後一天要完成這個很重要的事情但是因為部長也有法律的背景嘛所以我才特別希望他講清楚的原因但部長剛才又講諮詢跟審議好像那個界線也沒有太大"},{"start":12403.994,"end":12407.719,"text":"因為我們希望把事情處理好嘛所以這一個這個這個再生醫療審議會"},{"start":12418.954,"end":12420.175,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12444.136,"end":12459.082,"text":"所以我才會再提醒一下就是就是通通的針對再生醫療的這個醫療技術啦還是繼續做審議然後只有只有這個何以而且何以再生自己有戶款許可之審議"},{"start":12460.642,"end":12475.745,"text":"我跟這行人很牽強第二件事情第三件事情就是我們是已經把各類別的人盡量可以納入到審議會都把他納進來了就醫、藥、生技、倫理、法律及相關專業學者、專家還有所謂講的病友團體"},{"start":12488.448,"end":12505.548,"text":"但是這個好像我們只是把很多的類別大鍋槽放進來這個審議會都不需要的委員都不需要任何的資格限定就這個應該我是希望把這個審議會真的是要定位非常清楚啦就這樣而已"},{"start":12508.828,"end":12526.598,"text":"因為現在我們的這一個條文的第二項對於這一些組成成員的資格的話我們會去訂第二項的話是第三項第三項的部分的話中央主管機關會"},{"start":12531.18,"end":12555.417,"text":"對於審議會的組成、議事等等這些會定所以資格的部分會在那個地方去定第三項的部分我們就會定那個審議會的那個組成組成要包括人員有幾名然後資格各種專業的資格是什麼樣的資格這我們會去定"},{"start":12560.501,"end":12561.122,"text":"二）繼續審查委員邱議瑩等21人擬具"},{"start":12580.654,"end":12594.232,"text":"他有這個背後是醫事公會的這樣子的一個訴求認為說對於付付款的這種許可的這種字跡的許可"},{"start":12594.973,"end":12597.295,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12622.216,"end":12624.417,"text":"這一個審議會是由衛生福利部部長或其指定之人來擔任召集人。"},{"start":12641.906,"end":12664.465,"text":"所以當他在這個審議會裡面做了決定其實就等到衛福部的決定了大概是這樣子所以如果我們只用知議的話那也就是說這個知議會做出來的一個決定只是一個建議那必須要到衛福部去那最後還是部長"},{"start":12665.866,"end":12667.548,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12694.136,"end":12695.321,"text":"以前（就算現在（"},{"start":12696.263,"end":12724.202,"text":"在我們衛福部裡面的醫學相關的委員會裡面用審議委員會的大概主要就是那個醫事審議委員會那醫事審議委員會大概分三個小組在進行其中只有一個小組他做出來的決定是用這一個醫審會的名義發文的他就是醫療糾紛鑑定小組"},{"start":12734.187,"end":12752.275,"text":"其他部分的話,包括醫療資源的配置等等這些,他還是必須要經過衛福部,那是由部長這邊去,也就像我們那個分區,那個次區域的劃分等等這些,那醫事審議委員會做出這個決定。"},{"start":12754.996,"end":12755.777,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12780.454,"end":12780.995,"text":"負責審查委員"},{"start":12797.279,"end":12814.466,"text":"資格審查及應該是要放進去,不然就沒有任何的依循。這是其一。我是建議這樣。第二,因為是部長講的,不管是怎樣,不管是這個委員會還是"},{"start":12818.528,"end":12841.728,"text":"還是未來就是說如果沒有諮詢會還是會到部長的這個位階裡面去做處理這基本上就是以實務操作這樣我可以認可但是也不能也不能有一些沒有必要衝突你看要證許可這個付款許可其實它都歸屬在我們的資金條例的管理範疇這主管機關是FDA"},{"start":12845.291,"end":12846.152,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12860.666,"end":12861.606,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12879.872,"end":12881.633,"text":"我可不可以在第一項審議委員會之委員資格組成"},{"start":12908.891,"end":12919.774,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）"},{"start":12938.18,"end":12939.341,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":12967.662,"end":12991.92,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案 第5條和立法說明就照行政院的修正版本通過。接下來是第6條的立法說明。第6條的部分的話是因為我們第6條新增了一些委託方式必須有主管機關公告所以我們就增加了說明的第二項就是考量再生"},{"start":12993.421,"end":13016.13,"text":"醫療具新興生物醫學之特性,為確保其所需之組織細胞來源之品質等相關事項,源於第二項授權中關主管機關就委託方式資格條件另訂定並公告之以上。委員有意見嗎?沒有。那就照行政院修正的這個版本通過。"},{"start":13018.342,"end":13036.954,"text":"接下來第7條的立法說明第7條的部分的話是因為昨天委員這邊決議是說把執行再生技術然後這邊特別要強調的是人體試驗所以我們在這邊的話是在第一項的這邊再增加說明就是再生技術為醫療法規所規定之醫療行為並具有專業技術性"},{"start":13042.157,"end":13066.662,"text":"治療方法與合併使用再生醫療製劑之複雜度高且發展快速多變之特性。」然後這樣子的一個前面的規定我們就是把再生技術的特性寫出來後面增加的修正的是原規定醫療機構執行再生技術前除有第8條第一項規定提醒外因醫療法第8條規定進行並完成人體試驗並再生"},{"start":13070.482,"end":13085.707,"text":"醫療製劑因依再生醫療製劑管理條例完成查驗登記並取得藥品許可證或有付款許可,使得上市急功臨床使用並與說明。就是再次強調這個人體試驗的這個重要性以上。"},{"start":13087.745,"end":13107.492,"text":"委員有意見嗎?我們那個立法說明我今天有簽署那個附帶決議就是因為最後那個不確定性很高疫情的沿江市整體發展狀況另訂定相關指揮公約就參考那我們今天是像應訂定專屬再生醫療人體實驗辦法這個比較約束力啊"},{"start":13111.733,"end":13126.503,"text":"就是比較具有就是在在你們說明的最後面那幾行而在臨床試驗中傳統期緣模式不再明確這個我們接受且人體試驗之範圍以目的性有異於臨床試驗原將是整體"},{"start":13128.325,"end":13129.025,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13144.386,"end":13145.226,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13168.656,"end":13192.73,"text":"稍微怎麼樣寫會是比較符合你現在寫的這個發展狀況,欸這個這樣可以這樣講嗎?看發展狀況。定定這個相關資源。我是不是可以這樣的建議啦,就不要用辦法,因為辦法的話就必須要在法律裡面去、母法裡面去定要有授權。要改成指引啦,我們就可以接受。"},{"start":13192.93,"end":13193.59,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13218.551,"end":13244.298,"text":"你可以寫這麼多你可以直接在下面啊就是最後說明就是立法說明最下面立法說明的部分齁對啊你最後那幾個行字你看岩江那個倒數倒數第二三行啊再拉高一點你覺得寫直譯有彈性OK啊對所以那個文字要怎麼樣改委員的意思"},{"start":13246.353,"end":13247.373,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13272.807,"end":13273.087,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13300.6,"end":13325.567,"text":"你說不要辦法嘛,辦法太硬嘛。所以就是說解人體試驗之範圍與目的性有異於臨床試驗之艱險。我覺得訂定相關時就可以。對阿應該那句就那個原將是整體發展狀況的三段。相關就是再生醫療阿,不能把再生醫療這四個字寫進去嗎?"},{"start":13340.29,"end":13342.672,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13363.905,"end":13387.163,"text":"然後然後後面的就是維持原案就是定定令相關指引供醫療機構參考運用並與續名並與續名好好那第7條就照剛剛話這個行政院的修正版本通過好那剛剛呃有暫時保留是第8條第19條還有24條那個文字是不是對已經哦在這裡OK好對"},{"start":13399.476,"end":13418.708,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生"},{"start":13424.264,"end":13443.67,"text":"我們先就那個第8條我們確定的建議文字我重新念一遍醫療機構執行再生技術有下列情形之一者免完成人體試驗一治療危及生命或嚴重失能之疾病且國內尚無適當之藥品醫療器材或醫療技術"},{"start":13444.79,"end":13462.357,"text":"二）本法施行前醫療機構經中央主管機關核准執行之再生技術,前向第一款之條件申請案例數限制,倫理規範及其他應遵循事項由中央主管機關公告之,但其治療應排除液體細胞組織。"},{"start":13465.581,"end":13485.629,"text":"醫療機構執行第一項,下面的這兩項其實都跟之前一樣,所以我就沒有要再念,然後我們增加了新的說明的部分的主要是在第一項。第七條規定醫療機構執行在生技術前應進行並完成人體試驗,但臨床上病情危急,"},{"start":13486.409,"end":13488.57,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13507.02,"end":13531.297,"text":"然後或後面大概都一樣就是說針對的是第二款的部分然後我們補充的說明是考量原科轉計畫以明定效期藉其責案本法第12條規定申請均得例外免於國內完成人體試驗這是我們說做的第一部分的修正然後第四點的部分的話我們是在特別強調的是其"},{"start":13532.418,"end":13542.627,"text":"治療或有輸入再生之機。強調治療的部分。第8條的部分我們做了以上的修正。王委員。確定一下是異種還是異體。異種嘛。所以這邊寫異體。異種。異種。沒有。排除異種。排除異種。對對對。寫錯了。寫錯了。寫錯了。"},{"start":13566.015,"end":13589.205,"text":"對一種細胞好那委員還有意見嗎沒有那就照呃這個行政院的建議修正版本通過在19條19條的部分的話我們就是呃經過剛剛討論我們的建議條文吼第一個就是在第一項裡面我們就是維持治療然後這個是"},{"start":13595.889,"end":13613.502,"text":"且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,且,"},{"start":13626.164,"end":13640.997,"text":"第二項提供者我們把胎兒為胎兒的這一部分也做刪除所以只剩下提供者為限制行為能力或受輔助先告人支持我們留著這個然後接下來的話是第六項"},{"start":13642.438,"end":13659.581,"text":"第六項,第六項的部分的話就是第三項第四項規定再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者我們也刪除了原本的建議把胎兒拿掉然後那也因為這樣子所以我的立法說明的第二項裡面在講為保護限制行為人"},{"start":13660.99,"end":13683.26,"text":"然後,受輔助宣告之人、無行為人、受監護宣告之人或無意識能力之成年人之身體法醫於第六項規定其統一書應經公正使生效力以為保護效果之強化,令羊水其袋及胎盤不受遣述規定,做了以上的修正。"},{"start":13685.214,"end":13710.824,"text":"這裡的文字可能稍微再做一點調整就立法說明了這個部分令最後一段令養水的令後面的話我建議是令胎兒不作為那個細胞或組織的提供來源但養水幾代及胎盤不受這個前述規定限制"},{"start":13722.079,"end":13739.418,"text":"那個座位的座是要另外那一個座規定限制最後要加一個限制"},{"start":13742.432,"end":13764.336,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三"},{"start":13776.705,"end":13804.132,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療法草案〉案〈再生醫療"},{"start":13808.256,"end":13829.058,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案件事宜、三"},{"start":13830.499,"end":13832.42,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13860.373,"end":13884.532,"text":"可不可以改成組織細胞?因為前面都是組織細胞。各位委員在針對文字的部分再確認一下。組織跟細胞中間要頓耗嗎?"},{"start":13888.832,"end":13889.512,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":13927.585,"end":13936.411,"text":"第二四條的部分的話我念一次齁就是修正的地方的話會是在第三項第三項中央主管機關"},{"start":13946.429,"end":13952.313,"text":"因每年公開第一項醫療機構之治療效果及統計之醫療品質資訊都好以維護民眾權益這是做的文字修正"},{"start":13975.623,"end":13976.043,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14006.809,"end":14033.725,"text":"每年……然後 這個改完之後就跳到第二項第二項有一個治療效果前項報告內容應包括案例數治療效果這是內文的部分好好"},{"start":14036.065,"end":14045.069,"text":"第24條就照行政院的版本建議修正通過。還有附帶決議。附帶決議第一案。"},{"start":14062.227,"end":14063.529,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14075.768,"end":14093.331,"text":"再生醫療法附帶決議第1案有鑒於再生醫療法之立法目的為取代現行特管法,原要求主管機關針對目前特管法已核准執行之再生技術訂定落日條款。提案人委員陳昭姿、王育敏、林淑芬第二案"},{"start":14094.79,"end":14108.117,"text":"本次我國再生醫療法再生醫療製劑條例立法所採用之醫療技術與製劑的雙軌制模式與日本制度相同,應可借盡其經驗,原要求衛生福利部應嚴格規範與醫療機構內執行之再生醫療技術與最小操作"},{"start":14114.48,"end":14130.551,"text":"最小操作下執行避免出現規避查驗登記程序平白讓患者付出昂貴醫療費用卻僅得到療效未經證實之治療等違背醫學倫理之狀況。提案人委員陳昭芝、王育敏、林淑芬"},{"start":14131.151,"end":14153.989,"text":"第三）為維護病人之健康安全與權益,原要求中央主管機關參考美國《適用權法案》明確規範醫療機構施用此類技術時,需通過嚴謹病情評估與治療方法審查之辦法。提案人委員陳昭姿、王玉敏、林淑芬。第四案,在《新醫療法》正式施行後,"},{"start":14154.87,"end":14169.963,"text":"特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法第二章第一節細胞治療技術及公告廢止提案人委員王振旭、林淑芬、林月琴、劉建國、邱議瑩。第五案"},{"start":14170.623,"end":14187.72,"text":"有關再生醫療法草案第五條審議會之辦理事項審議諮詢之規定主管機關應定出相關辦法明確規範上述事項確保審議會之運作以及病人權益提案人委員劉建國林月琴王正旭"},{"start":14188.661,"end":14214.299,"text":"第六案有關再生醫療法草案第五條第一項第七款所稱再生致濟有付款許可之審議系審查有付款許可之再生致濟其整體風險效益及付款要求考量疾病危及生命或嚴重失能之要件符合性以確屬有益於病人之治療選擇提案人委員劉建國林月琴王振旭宣讀完畢"},{"start":14215.865,"end":14235.489,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案．一）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬"},{"start":14245.828,"end":14258.299,"text":"再生醫療法草案 總共有9案審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由黃昭吉委員秀芳補充說明那不須交由黨團協商"},{"start":14276.717,"end":14278.407,"text":"呃（本法案條次．有嗎?"},{"start":14292.754,"end":14308.548,"text":"那本法案的條次及援引條次授權醫師人員調整相關立法說明授權行政單位提供好那我們這個再生醫療法草案就先這樣通過了那接下來還有"},{"start":14311.026,"end":14329.801,"text":"現在繼續進行討論事項第二案,再生醫療治劑條例草案。那保留的條文的審查每條條文仍先請行政單位說明,接著由委員來表示意見。那我們保留的條文是第12條。第三條。第三。有嗎?"},{"start":14343.171,"end":14362.853,"text":"第三條我們有加前項再生醫療制計屬於藥事法第6條規定之藥品昨天保留就12條"},{"start":14366.748,"end":14383.333,"text":"第12條因為委員建議我們在第一項的部分就是但顯有益於治療特定人口群所以在這邊我們就另外是要把治療加上去這個我們電腦電腦螢幕那另外在"},{"start":14398.479,"end":14424.475,"text":"第六項的部分我們增加的是第三項第四項規定再生醫療組織細胞來源之提供者為胎兒限制行為能力人受輔助宣告之人無行為能力人受肩負宣告之人或無意識能力之成年人取得之書面同意應經公正使生效力所以這裡"},{"start":14425.976,"end":14445.205,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具 «再生醫療法草案案案件事宜,為保護胎兒,限制行為能力人,受輔助宣告之人,無行為能力人,受肩負宣告之人,或無意識能力之成年人之身體法役。"},{"start":14446.286,"end":14455.957,"text":"與第六項規定其同意書應經公正使生效力,以為保護效果之強化。」所以這是我們整個修改的部分。"},{"start":14459.12,"end":14460.061,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14481.966,"end":14498.312,"text":"就是要把胎兒拿掉因為我們第12條的最前面的部分是衛工製造再生醫療製劑就是說他已經是一個再生醫療製劑了"},{"start":14500.805,"end":14518.292,"text":"但是它在成為字跡之前是必須要有提供者那提供者為胎兒時這就會跟再生醫療法剛剛我們審查的是不一致我是認為你這邊也不會有用到胎兒的東西啦"},{"start":14519.451,"end":14520.212,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14537.379,"end":14557.693,"text":"主席對不起我稍微再提醒一下就是第12條條文裡面的第一項但有顯有益於治療特定人口群這邊寫或可是我們之前在再生醫療法上面寫且所以這邊要確認一下這也可以改且對這是可以一致的是這一條的話你們在哪裏就在跟那個剛剛再生醫療"},{"start":14564.969,"end":14592.428,"text":"就胎兒的部分都把它拿掉這樣是好好不好那要不要現在直接改好不好就在螢幕上面好嗎第一段的已經改了嗎然後再來第一項我看一下第三項第三項提供者那從為胎兒死那裡開始就刪掉就改的是不是"},{"start":14594.429,"end":14595.69,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14638.394,"end":14646.636,"text":"各位委員有沒有意見?沒有,那就照行政院版本建議修正通過。"},{"start":14647.705,"end":14649.127,"text":"第5條的說明。"},{"start":14663.322,"end":14684.927,"text":"第五條的說明是在第三項的部分就是因為我們在我們在條文的部分那時候有陣列應由專任藥師駐場監製這個所以在說明欄的第三項又再生醫療之際本屬藥品依藥事法第29條第一項規定應由專任藥師駐場監製為求明確源於第二項明定之"},{"start":14696.502,"end":14707.278,"text":"各位委員有沒有意見?沒有。那就照行政院版本建議修正通過。再來是第20。"},{"start":14713.209,"end":14735.221,"text":"第二十條也是說明欄的部分因為委員希望我們對於裁罰三萬以上兩百萬以下的這個能夠有更明確的說明所以在說明欄有加了裁處時因審酌違反情節累計違反次數違反所得利益及其他審酌因素為緩緩而度之依據各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":14741.067,"end":14741.527,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14750.681,"end":14777.323,"text":"第二十一條因為那時候有增加了要去公證的部分所以在第十二條就有第三項就是也多了一個第六項那第六項如果他們沒有去辦公證那到這邊我們華環也跟著同步所以在第21條的第一項第六款的部分我們有加一個就是後面那裡"},{"start":14778.584,"end":14803.431,"text":"或為依同條第三項至第六項有關同意權行使規定者違反的,這個一樣會裁罰,所以是因為增加那個6。各位委員有沒有意見?沒有。那就照這個行政院的版本建議修正的通過。還有哪個?第三案本來是第17條,現在多了一個21條。"},{"start":14806.687,"end":14813.481,"text":"負貸決議。」好,那負貸決議請宣讀。再生醫療制計條例草案負貸決議第三案。"},{"start":14815.12,"end":14841.753,"text":"行政院版再生醫療自治條例草案第17條及第21條定名中央主管機關指定品項於上市後指定期間內需進行安全監視為平衡安全監視與病人隱私之考量應比照藥品安全監視管理辦法第15條規定當藥商執行藥品的安全監視時若有必要收集、處理或利用個人資料"},{"start":14842.253,"end":14865.032,"text":"因嚴格遵守個人資料保護法及其相關法規之規定,提案人委員陳昭芝、王玉敏、林淑芬宣讀完畢。來,行政單位有沒有意見?這是有關藥品安全監視辦法這個,我們可以遵照辦理。好,那附帶決議就"},{"start":14868.072,"end":14870.653,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14893.326,"end":14894.166,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14918.251,"end":14944.205,"text":"但是到了製劑製劑的部分的話他就是大規模大量的製造那他的這個公司就是說藥廠嘛他基本上是可能就是規模是比較大的所以對藥廠稍微提高提高法環的那個上限是比較好"},{"start":14944.608,"end":14945.389,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14973.408,"end":14974.912,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":14985.083,"end":14985.743,"text":"二）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":15009.657,"end":15010.458,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具"},{"start":15029.196,"end":15042.224,"text":"再生醫療制計條例草案總共9案審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由黃昭吉委員秀芳補充說明,不須交由黨團協商。"},{"start":15044.105,"end":15059.594,"text":"本法案條次及援引條次授權醫事人員調整相關立法說明授權行政單位提供。那這個快散會之前我先感謝部長因為看下禮拜的這個議程部長可能就不會再進來委員會了所以"},{"start":15063.536,"end":15084.856,"text":"所以感謝部長在一年多對所有衛福部的一些法案這麼用心我們等一下在散會前是不是所有的委員到前面來感謝部長那我們也做一個合影謝謝本次會議到此結束散會"},{"start":15095.253,"end":15103.541,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「再生醫療法草案案 案 等19人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":15119.326,"end":15120.647,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具:「"},{"start":15149.054,"end":15149.398,"text":"三）繼續審查委員"},{"start":15166.879,"end":15171.343,"text":"三）繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具、「再生醫療法草案案。"}]}},{"id":"152381","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152381","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d8895cbcabfb68f5217edc876f0c7792e2d94006c6d412c4d62257a4ee7158f175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:41:29 - 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青年基本法草案公聽會：吳思瑤"},{"start":147.851,"end":147.871,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":173.439,"end":177.801,"text":"政策制定的過程一定要確保青年的參與以及把居住、就業創業、教育、健康福利、文化、公共參與的權利明定入法"},{"start":187.432,"end":188.814,"text":"吳思瑤版《青年基本法》"},{"start":202.609,"end":230.409,"text":"好天時地利人和很重要今天走到這一步而且在教育文化委員會有公聽會代表我們青年基本法的立法進程又往前一步了因為我們的攻勢越來越強那為什麼需要呢我想我也要替清法署說說話啦當初馬英九在2012年裁創了清府會之後整個青年事務發展都在教育部的清法署所以他的level不夠高他就沒有辦法跨部會去整合的"},{"start":232.03,"end":232.09,"text":"蔡英文議員"},{"start":261.229,"end":261.249,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":279.352,"end":290.076,"text":"特別好因為民進黨是最照顧青年最重視青年的政府從這幾年的青年事務的參與18歲的公投法是民進黨主導修正的下修至18歲民法也都連帶下修至18歲唯一還需要請國民黨民眾黨加入我們的就是修憲的18歲公民權我們會持續來努力這裡是青年參政權民進黨很努力在做下一頁"},{"start":306.161,"end":306.181,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":328.985,"end":329.165,"text":"內政、衛福、財政、勞動、經濟、農業、國發"},{"start":346.013,"end":346.033,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":365.137,"end":365.257,"text":"民進黨推動基本法"},{"start":379.687,"end":379.707,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":402.645,"end":417.018,"text":"所以10加1下一步我非常期待大家一起努力就是我們的青年基本法可以立法成功下一頁好我很快來下一頁我很快速的來說我的版本參照了芬蘭2016年的青年基本法下一頁也參照了韓國2020年的青年基本法"},{"start":422.483,"end":422.503,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":443.695,"end":443.735,"text":"公聽會：吳思瑤"},{"start":460.723,"end":460.743,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":486.556,"end":486.576,"text":"吳思瑤議員"}]}},{"id":"152380","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152380","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792dfb4423fc039c3fbb17edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac761e0ed21dd71ae2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:05:24 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非常遺憾我實在是對衛福部就是非常的不開心因為我還針對最近兒少代表機制衛福部的提案要改變原本是由下而上選的這個機制我們政府部會都知道他們的意見常常都只是一個諮詢性質未必能夠參與決策"},{"start":245.402,"end":262.643,"text":"你讓他由下而上的代表像我們今天就有幾位兒少代表這是一個很好的民主機制啊那衛夫的提案居然把改成是由上而下領選那等於是他的民主選舉被拔掉了他本來是各縣市這樣選上來最後能夠來中央是一個多大的榮譽"},{"start":263.484,"end":265.767,"text":"我當天緊急去跟我們衛福部長質詢然後我以為可以改變就很遺憾沒有改變還是照案通過我想這就代表青年跟兒少一樣"},{"start":278.542,"end":303.568,"text":"如果你沒有給他一個位置保障很多的政策也不知道是哪位政務官哪個靈感突然覺得這樣比較好然後他就被改變了那我想這就是一個不好的例子那我很遺憾沒有辦法改變他那就是這個部分我覺得我們要保障青年代表民主參與機制那不只是要有性別比例特別是不利處境者參與也要確保"},{"start":304.648,"end":330.443,"text":"因為衛福部這次改變就是因為國際公約、國際專家說兒少代表要有不利處境結果不是用外加的方式用這個理由把它改成零選我覺得這是不對的因為如果你由下而上選出沒有不利處境者你可以外加事實上由下而上選出就跟我們的性別保障名額它也是可以去設定的所以我覺得"},{"start":331.283,"end":331.343,"text":"主席副總統"},{"start":347.273,"end":362.773,"text":"他前一段時間辦的投資未來的青年論壇跟我們的準格魁都到場當天青年的意見他們都有聽到青年的意見之一就是要有青年基本法"},{"start":363.754,"end":382.322,"text":"當天我也有到現場吳思耀委員也有到我們有聆聽青年的意見也提醒大家這是我們準總統在公開的場合聽到青年的主張我希望我們能夠競速立法這畢竟是一個由下而上的投資未來世代裡面的青年論壇他們自己的聲音"},{"start":384.403,"end":391.428,"text":"希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責希望教育部能成為主責"},{"start":411.263,"end":411.403,"text":"范雲委員"}]}},{"id":"152379","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792df2771650f5657ccfb4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7a3e401defcf2fd2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:43:49 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11:56:01","影片長度":"00:12:12","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":732,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:56:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T11:43:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時43分）主席，有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。"],["主席：好，請四位列席官員上臺。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：首先，我這邊先感謝鍾佳濱召委安排今天這一場專報，針對強制執行保單解約的問題，邀請各個主管單位來報告，因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題，事實上我們也接到非常多的陳情案件，真的已經造成很廣大的民怨，其實不只造成民怨啦！其實這些案件已經造成司法單位很大的負擔，我們之前還一直討論有關於法官的案件量過多，所以造成大家負荷過重，甚至有法官不幸墜樓。像這種情形，其實都跟制度設計有問題相關。非常感謝鍾佳濱委員今天安排這場專報，也因此，當鍾委員找我為臨時提案連署時，我馬上就同意。不過臨時提案也只是權宜之計，就是在法制、制度與政策修改之前，針對現在的亂象畫一條止血線而已。長遠來講，我覺得終究還是需要在制度面上拿出方法。我有幾個問題想要就教，也讓大家看看問題的嚴重度。","壽險保單是不是可以視為債務人的財產，進而變成法院強制執行標的？紛爭的緣起主要是在於110年度12月9日，最高法院民事大法庭108年臺抗大字第897號裁定提到，執行法院在必要時可以核發執行命令，終止債務人為要保人的人壽保險契約，命第三人保險公司償付解約金。在897號裁定出來之後，債權人向執行法院聲請強制執行時，聲請查詢債務人對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加，依法務部所給的數字來看，112年1月1日到113年3月總共查詢多少件？23萬件，對不對？其實這就是多出來的一個很大負擔！不只查詢，核發扣押命令的也有3萬4,680件，核發執行命令，終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約有8,712件。現在全國21家保險公司中，有兩家的總公司在士林地方法院的轄區，其他19家都在臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內，所以案件量確實大增。我想請問司法院秘書長，對於這件事，目前法院狀況如何？已經變成很沉重的負擔吧？請說。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以臺北地院執行處在4月份趕快新增7個執行股，包括書記官7人，執達員7人，司法事務官5人。另外增加委外人力17人，也趕快擴增一些辦公室，增設事務機，這些我們都必須儘速應急，變成重災區了。"],["羅委員智強：我剛好可以跟秘書長講一件事，這跟我們之前關切的法官過勞，還有書記官、檢察官過勞一樣，都是相類似的問題。我想秘書長也知道我非常支持法官員額增加，因為案件量實在大增，所以法官員額應該要增加。但其實另外一個法官過勞的原因，並非純粹人手不足的問題，而是近來案件數量大增，比方這件事情就憑空多出非常大的案件源！如果能夠做一些簡化措施或制度上的調整，就可以有效減少很多案件。因此，不是純粹像剛剛秘書長講的人力增加就足以應對，更重要的是檢視這些案件源的增加是怎麼來的？有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理減少案件來源？比方我之前質詢過檢察官、檢警分工的問題，檢警分工如果做得好，一些重複的司法程序被節省下來時，就可以實質上減輕司法人員的負擔。不知道秘書長認不認同這點？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然認同。在效率、效能方面如何提升也很重要。"],["羅委員智強：另外，我就要回到……"],["周廳長玫芳：委員，我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法。剛剛委員問到程序簡化的問題，目前查詢的案件有23萬件，正如委員所說。如果這個查詢事件在事發之初，也就是債權人不向法院聲請，而是直接向壽險公會申請，那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟壽險公會之間流動，也可以減省很多程序。主要是因為金管會，我不知道這是金管會認為……"],["羅委員智強：請金管會回答一下，為什麼程序會這樣設計？"],["周廳長玫芳：債權人不能直接向壽險公會查詢這些事件，不能查詢要保人的保險資料，以至於債權人都跑到法院來聲請查詢。如果這部分可以直接像稅捐稽徵法第三十三條一樣，讓這些拿有執行名義的債權人直接向稅捐機關，而在這裡就是直接向壽險公會，或向金管會查詢資料，如此一來，中間這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來。"],["羅委員智強：我想聽一下金管會的意見，可以說明一下嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，我們現在建立的保險通報系統，原來是經過要保人同意，保險公司才會把投保資訊建置在壽險公會。當初請要保人同意的目的，是要做核保使用，非其他目的外業務。如果要透過這樣的方式來查詢的話，那麼第一個，債權人是無由使用這個系統，所以才會請法院依照法令規定來要求查詢。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛主席也在笑，因為兩邊聽起來都有道理，可是現在因此而增加的東西，就需要雙方協調出一個機制，這也是為什麼我剛剛會提到鍾佳濱召委提臨時提案的原因所在。雖然只是暫時、稍微緩和問題，不過就這件事來說，我覺得兩邊真的是要協調出作法來。一方面當然是對於法律程序更嚴謹的保障，但另一方面也涉及到今天就是多了23萬件的案件量！其實不只是這東西，不過今天還沒有時間討論到。對於一般民眾而言，特別是去保險的民眾，我們接到真的是……我剛剛為什麼講要限定金額？有些要保金額非常低微，可是你們現在要他自己去做這些事情，這對他們的騷擾與干擾其實是很大的，也破壞了保險制度設計的重點，這是我剛剛講的第一個點。","現在回到897號裁定的部分，執行法院認為的必要性在哪裡？什麼叫必要性？它說必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約，請問必要性的原則是什麼？"],["周廳長玫芳：法院在審查時會回到強制執行法第一條跟第一百二十二條去審查，看似好像沒有一個具體標準，但是在實際的具體個案上，對於保險契約要不要終止，一般司法事務官就會去審查這個保險契約的性質是什麼、有沒有附約、債務人年紀多大、有沒有工作能力、可不可能再獲得營業收入還有他本身及其共同生活的家屬的基本需求是什麼？這些都會去做衡量，這就是……"],["羅委員智強：所以可以看到這整個裁量有多複雜！"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["羅委員智強：光是「必要性」三個字你就已經講那麼久了。今天我回到民眾身上來看，我曾受理過一些案件，比方其中一個個案，有一個民眾在二、三十年前為哥哥開的公司做擔保人，他哥哥因為經商失敗加上過世，所以債務就落到陳情人身上。最後即便他還了一些，但因為債務人的負擔過大，最後當事人被強制執行的保險保單，除了自己的以外，他在意的不是自己的，而是小孩子的保險！為未成年子女所買的保險也一樣被強制執行！像這種情形你覺得合必要性嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：其實在必要性的審酌上，我們還有其他配套措施，比如說在整個強制執行……"],["羅委員智強：所以我就問這件事情你覺得有合必要性嗎？你覺得呢？"],["周廳長玫芳：要看他全部的責任來……"],["羅委員智強：基本上我知道所謂的897號裁定，主要是為了避免債務人脫產，對不對？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是講到債務人脫產……像我剛剛講的是十萬元以下的金額或二十萬的金額，說真的，要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦，不是嗎？還有像這種所謂二、三十年前的保單，他當時就那麼遠見要脫產嗎？不會的。"],["周廳長玫芳：所以在衡量之下，通常會認為不需要解約，我想在我們實務上……"],["羅委員智強：可是我跟你講，你實際上就是做到往解約的方向走，他就被強制執行啦，所以因此，今天你一個法院的裁定，你今天說得不清不楚，執行下去就是幾十萬人受害耶！都被捲到這裡面去，真的，我真的拜託，今天不只是從法官減量啦，你今天從所謂民眾受到這麼多的困擾，因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能，對不對？而且有些保單都是二、三十年前做的，金額也不大，結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件，跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有悖的啦，因為實際上他不是為了脫產的目的，這種部分的話，真的不能再推來推去，拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長等，也謝謝羅委員，事實上也跟羅委員說明一下，今天我們有邀請到中華民國人壽保險商業同業公會的金副秘書長，他非常嫻熟，私下或許委員可以跟他請教為什麼執行法院依聲請人聲請，向他們查詢債務人的投保資料有那麼多件。謝謝，謝謝羅委員。","接下來有請王委員鴻薇，王委員鴻薇，王委員鴻薇不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員黃珊珊、傅崐萁、翁曉玲所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","羅智強","李坤城","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","傅崐萁","翁曉玲"],"page_start":65,"meetingDate":["2024-05-09"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債\n未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案","agenda_id":"1134301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.746593750000002,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.31971875,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.01971875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.70721875,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.62659375,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.57846875,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.48221875000002,"end":217.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.02221875,"end":219.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.71409375000002,"end":218.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.97971875000002,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.12721875000003,"end":247.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.93346875,"end":246.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.38471875000002,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.83909375,"end":329.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.49409375000005,"end":339.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.75534375,"end":333.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.30284375,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.31971875000005,"end":339.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.35346875000005,"end":339.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.37034375,"end":339.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.52221875000004,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.16346875000005,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.72034375000004,"end":340.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.88909375000003,"end":341.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.97346875,"end":341.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.61471875,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.01971875000004,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.12096875000003,"end":342.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.34034375000005,"end":342.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.54284375000003,"end":342.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.66909375,"end":345.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.63471875000005,"end":349.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":349.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.91034375000004,"end":370.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.47096875,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.14909375,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.71846875,"end":383.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.73471875,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":398.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.08909375,"end":384.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.71971875,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.45596875,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.54409375,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.37909375000004,"end":418.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.39596875,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.30721875,"end":440.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.90721875,"end":456.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.34346875000006,"end":464.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.74346875000003,"end":467.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.63721875000005,"end":506.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.83784375000005,"end":533.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.77409375,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.4865937500001,"end":544.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.3215937500001,"end":543.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.9922187500001,"end":560.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.8884687500001,"end":561.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.81659375,"end":565.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.42784375,"end":581.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.6784687500001,"end":590.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.5759687500001,"end":596.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.44034375,"end":593.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.0265937500001,"end":595.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.07284375,"end":596.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start"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這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦"},{"start":675.204,"end":692.488,"text":"所以這樣在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚"},{"start":693.608,"end":716.725,"text":"執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而有些保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件"},{"start":717.779,"end":729.152,"text":"那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792dc28e508c0815e420b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7ba4ee290179ce0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:31:10 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11:43:43","影片長度":"00:12:33","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":753,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:43:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T11:31:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時31分）謝謝召委，請法務部及金管會。"],["主席：法務部黃署長、金管會施局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天的提案我非常支持啦！"],["主席：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以有參與連署，但是我等一下問的問題可能就比較離題，比較不好意思，但是我非常支持召委的這個提案。","謝謝兩位，我先請教金管會，因為這段時間詐欺案件一直暴增，除了一些福國利民的法案之外，我們也要去思考、把一些對社會傷害比較大的事情想想看要怎麼去處理，當然所有的處理其實司法本來應該是最末端，行政是前端就要處理，結果我們現在有一點顛倒了，我們把所有社會上面發生的事情就丟給檢警調去處理，其實這個邏輯上是錯的，應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好，才會減少後階段司法的負荷，並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情發生。","我上個月有去參加高檢署的打詐研討會，其實研討會裡面這些問題大概都是老生常談了，我們都知道現在詐欺集團有一個最重要的東西，他對於這個金流一定要有辦法，他一定要拿到你的錢才有詐騙的意義，所以他非常需要一些工具，這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶、電子支付帳戶、個人幣商、第三方支付帳戶或者是電信門號。","但是這段時間，我們從現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來，這幾年人頭帳戶的起訴率大概只有三成，其實這個原因有非常多，不能都怪司法，第一個，刑事訴訟制採嚴格的證據主義；再來，其實有很多帳戶持有人自己是被害人，所以對於這個起訴率高跟低，我不在這上面下一個價值的判斷。","但我這邊要提的一個點就是，當我們想到的是第一層的帳戶，那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶？我覺得這是目前一個很大的漏洞，被害人把錢匯過去的那個就是第一層的帳戶，但是被害人錢匯過去之後，這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層。關於第二層跟第三層帳戶，我請問一下金管會，你們有在管理、有在監控這個部分嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，這個部分因為是我們銀行局在主政的業務，所以我對這個比較不熟悉，可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那這樣好了，我也不為難，我提一個東西，今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶，也就是被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶，但是事實上，幕後首腦要拿到這些錢會透過第一層轉到第二層、再轉到第三層，轉了好幾層之後才會進到背後操控者的手中。這一段時間我發現一個狀況，就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管，這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的，這個不是由檢察機關或什麼，他們已經沒有那麼多人力了，所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決？對於第二層帳戶跟第三層帳戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作，讓被害人可以拿回錢，因為所有被害人來找我，他心中只想一件事情，就是他的錢拿不拿得回來，至於被告被判刑與否，他說他一點都不在意，他只希望把錢拿回來，救他這個家庭，結果我們把真正該做的事情、我們放錯重點了，你放在第一層帳戶，那些很多還是被害人，起訴率又很低，結果真正錢被傳過去，放在第二層、第三層，你又不及時圈存，金管會在這邊完全不動作，你反而讓這些犯罪行為人都能夠享受到這些犯罪所得，這是不應該的！而且政府在這一關上面非常的失職，我是第一線的檢察官出身的，我知道第二層、第三層沒有人管，這會害慘這個國家的人民！","所以麻煩金管會要注意，而且這個東西一定要由金管會出面，銀行局那邊要求各個銀行一定要落實去看第二層、第三層的帳戶，因為有非常多第二層、第三層的帳戶已經在非常多的案件中出現過了，但還是持續可以使用，這真的不應該！而且你在判決裡面看到很多帳戶都重複出現，結果卻沒有人管，好不好？"],["施局長瓊華：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果你看不懂，我跟你講，你看一下剛剛那張圖，它的金流很簡單，被害人錢匯到第一層，第一層再轉到第二層，第二層再到第三層，最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給……因為它去中心化，到最後才轉給真正幕後那個人，你根本追不到，結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面一個、一個不見了。"],["施局長瓊華：是，報告委員，是不是我轉給銀行局再跟委員報告？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，非常重要！看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回復，好不好？"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你再看，警示帳戶從110年到112年一直在增加，等於每天有75個新的警示帳戶，這個很恐怖啦！等於你管理完全失能了，就是因為管理失能，所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張、這麼好騙錢！導致現在社會上的民怨中，電信詐欺就是首要的。","當然我們知道現在你們有要求銀行要做好KYC，但是做KYC沒有太大的用處，他在開戶的時候就是一個正常的老百姓，可是事後怎麼去使用、怎麼提供給犯罪集團，這個你追不到，所以你去做KYC沒有錯，可是你要知道不是只做KYC，只做KYC沒有辦法杜絕越來越多的人頭帳戶，其實我知道管理人頭帳戶也不是沒有效果，我知道大家都很努力，所以人頭帳戶從我以前當檢察官初期一本3,000塊，到現在一本要二、三十萬，這是政府打詐的成果沒有錯，但是我覺得還是要積極做，因為現在每年新出來的人頭帳戶還是一大堆，而且數量一直在往上增加。","我給你看一個判決的附表，它就講得很清楚，有第二層跟第三層帳戶，結果政府沒有去處理，這很不應該，好不好？麻煩你們要注意這個點。","接下來我們請法務部。我現在要跟你們談AI智慧輔助系統。當初我們提這個AI輔助系統，其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作，我們用AI來去取代。我們看一下這些年110年的總預算，這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了，111年花了一千一百多萬，後面112年花了900萬，也就是說我們其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置，我想請問你現在效果如何？"],["黃署長玉垣：委員，因為我是行政執行署署長，這方面應該是檢察……"],["吳委員宗憲：你也是檢察官出身的啊！"],["黃署長玉垣：對，但我只能講說如果以我行政執行署角度的話，AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點，以行政執行署來講，在對這種打詐前端的設備，檢察官也感謝立法院的支持跟預算跟行政院的撥用，我行政執行署可以做的是，詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候，在偵查中檢察官要變賣，不管是泰達幣或者是其他的動產，我們行政執行署在第一時間就會予以變賣，符合剛才委員所講的，被害人最關心的就是他的錢到底能不能要回來，我們行政執行署是扮演這個角色，所以在AI這邊，行政執行署也有加強，不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我帶回去，由我們的權責單位來跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我知道，因為您以前在檢方也是我很尊敬的長官。"],["黃署長玉垣：不敢。"],["吳委員宗憲：您也很能瞭解在審理案件的時候，其實被害人在乎的是錢拿不拿得回來，如果我們運作的模式是讓他拿不回錢，我只是抓到被告，其實這個對國人沒有意義啊！他的錢還是拿不回來，所以他不會在乎這個點，我覺得我們要打對這個點。","我再跟您說明一下，有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部說一下。我在幾場公聽會上，學者跟專家都抱怨目前這個AI輔助系統的效果非常不彰，我再回去問了一下基層的檢察官，他們給我的講法是這樣，簡單的案件檢察官不想用，困難的案件以現階段AI的狀況根本用不了，像酒駕好了，如果他套用自己習慣的例稿，他十分鐘可以寫完一篇書類，結果他用AI生成出來的例稿，他還要花時間去看到底對不對，內容還亂七八糟，這就是所有基層檢察官跟我說的，難的話，你給它肅貪案件、金融案件，但是它根本辦不了，所以我們花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值到底在哪裡？用AI去發展未來，我覺得是對的，但是現階段是不是實用，可能要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點。","我們回過頭去看。我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告，而且我希望一個禮拜內提出來，因為馬上就520了，我們希望的數據是符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少、實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度，因為我認為錢要花在刀口上，這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算。","最後，我希望法務部要注意一下資源的分配，與其在那邊趕流行去搞AI的書類輔助系統，你不如去思考檢警調資料的交換電子化以及電子卷證制度，我以前在新北市府法制局時，我都要求無紙化，開會全部都是用電子檔案，警察能不能夠把他的移送報告電子檔直接給檢察官、給書記官，讓他可以直接引用以簡化書記官的作業，如果現場有在實務第一線的檢察官聽到，他可能會非常感動，終於有人想到這件事了，好不好？再麻煩法務部想一下。"],["黃署長玉垣：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有提升遠端視訊設備，減緩警察解送人犯還有檢察官在地檢署等移送人犯這件事，你也知道有時候屏東還要送到臺北，警察人力太辛苦了！好，在這邊就麻煩您能夠向法務部反映這件事，然後一個禮拜給我報告，謝謝。"],["黃署長玉垣：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委、謝謝署長。接下來請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","羅智強","李坤城","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","傅崐萁","翁曉玲"],"page_start":65,"meetingDate":["2024-05-09"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債\n未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案","agenda_id":"1134301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.51909375,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.64784375,"end":26.153468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.37284375,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.55784375,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.48159375,"end":35.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.04221875,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.57784375,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.57784375,"end":111.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.79409375,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.91971875,"end":126.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.81284375000001,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.92409375,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.28096875,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.25034375,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.91659375,"end":182.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.50284375,"end":193.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.07659375,"end":195.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.81471875000003,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.60346875000002,"end":201.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.51409375,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.45034375,"end":234.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.32346875000002,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.39534375,"end":291.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.01909375,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.39784375,"end":338.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.03284375000004,"end":348.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.36034375,"end":349.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.66409375,"end":351.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.03534375000004,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.17409375,"end":370.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.84409375,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.62034375,"end":359.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.69034375,"end":371.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.02346875,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.40534375000004,"end":442.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.18534375,"end":443.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.82659375000003,"end":445.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.56471875000005,"end":457.34346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.44471875000005,"end":457.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.38971875000004,"end":463.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.11034375,"end":476.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.30659375000005,"end":480.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.49596875000003,"end":500.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.80909375000005,"end":501.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.82596875,"end":508.35659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.02346875,"end":507.51284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.05284375,"end":508.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.13284375,"end":555.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.0334687500001,"end":524.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.1359687500001,"end":543.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.03721875,"end":554.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.8303437500001,"end":575.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.27284375,"end":558.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.45159375,"end":582.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.35784375,"end":581.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.16784375,"end":583.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.29846875,"end":588.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.96846875,"end":590.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.44909375,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.5247187500001,"end":607.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.5984687499999,"end":611.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.68221875,"end":616.20471875},{"sp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等於是你管理完全失能了 就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢 那導致現在社會上面民怨就是詐欺電信詐欺就是首要的"},{"start":388.49,"end":413.49,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":413.49,"end":413.97,"text":"好 那我們再往下看"},{"start":443.268,"end":443.969,"text":"主席"},{"start":458.708,"end":476.498,"text":"接下來我們請法務部我現在跟你們談的一個東西是AI的智慧輔助系統當初我們提這個AI的輔助系統其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作我們用AI來去取代那我們看一下這些年"},{"start":477.358,"end":500.146,"text":"一百一十年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了一百一十一年花了一千一百萬一千一百多那後面一一二年九百也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢"},{"start":502.054,"end":523.733,"text":"是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持這預算跟行政院的撥用"},{"start":524.093,"end":553.842,"text":"但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的被害人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的"},{"start":554.042,"end":560.745,"text":"我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點"},{"start":583.374,"end":605.635,"text":"那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣"},{"start":607.857,"end":615.922,"text":"你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了"},{"start":617.302,"end":645.825,"text":"你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段"},{"start":648.2,"end":664.858,"text":"現階段是不是實用,可能不理,你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點,那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘,回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告,而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦,因為馬上就520了"},{"start":667.401,"end":693.539,"text":"我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊"},{"start":696.081,"end":696.561,"text":"新北市府法治局"},{"start":711.086,"end":736.5,"text":"開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯"},{"start":737,"end":751.442,"text":"還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152377","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d92f6738201601ef417edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac791e55a3148b2c4485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:34:13 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謝謝主席那感謝怡瑾昭委今天舉辦這場公聽會那關於這個青年基本法的修法呢我們辦公室正在研擬相關版本那也非常開心今天可以聽到各位先進還有各位委員的高見那我們後續會把相關大家今天的意見納入我們的版本當中"},{"start":21.357,"end":21.397,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":41.215,"end":65.402,"text":"專屬於教育部還是他必須建立所謂跨部會的溝通平台這個機制我覺得這也是目前大家必須要持續討論也就是說整個行政機關他必須要討論一件非常重要的事情就是如何建立一個全方位理解青年的論述平台持續收集相關意見把相關的論述在這個平台上做一個非常重要的溝通機制我覺得這是我首先要提出來的關懷"},{"start":66.462,"end":66.902,"text":"青年基本法草案公聽會：陳培瑜"},{"start":81.758,"end":81.938,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":101.88,"end":130,"text":"鼓勵青年自我實現公共參與促進就業那以下我們會根據這些面向發表我們相關的意見另外第二個我們要談的是我們收集相關的行政機關目前行政院有所謂的青年諮詢委員會還有所謂教育部的青發署還有青年諮詢小組地方政府其實非常多地方政府都開始提出青年局青年推動小組青年顧問團青年諮詢委員會也就是大家都越來越重視青年的意見"},{"start":130.52,"end":130.94,"text":"中央及各個地方"},{"start":146.255,"end":167.993,"text":"對於所謂青年政策青年福利青年發展的想像相關論述必須要一起用力的討論接下來我要談我自己家裡頭或者是我也認識非常多已經邁入所謂青年18歲定義的這些青年朋友我想要問大家大家如何真的去認識他們目前的需求目前所有在檯面上的發言或者是所有的立法委員"},{"start":168.894,"end":168.934,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":183.973,"end":184.133,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":210.95,"end":236.915,"text":"通過一個基本精神的建立跟討論放入《青年基本法》但是在後續相關的配套跟措施執行還有如何服應台灣各鄉鎮縣市如此大的區域差異性這件事情都納入考量我覺得是後續行政機關跟所有立法委員還有相關的專家學者我們真的要共同一起努力的部分但是我要提出來鄉鎮差距越來越大這個事情務必要納入所有相關的考量"},{"start":237.415,"end":259.377,"text":"創業創業創業創業創業創業創業創業創業創業"},{"start":259.777,"end":288.297,"text":"回到呼應地方經濟的事情這件事情但是目前只有國發會的計畫而且它是只有相關補助但是政策的推動如何它變成是一個國家重要經濟政策的考量我要在這裡也要提出我們辦公室的關懷我們希望不是只是照顧到大家就業的勞動政策我們如何讓青年夥伴回到自己的社區家鄉透過地方創生初期的補助跟計畫到後續它真的可以產生地方經濟的動能這件事情是越來越重要"},{"start":288.897,"end":317.123,"text":"還有每一個臺灣地區的特色跟文化環境跟產業還有青年返鄉就業跟創業他們所面臨不同層面的議題我們也希望在後續我們辦公室的版本會加強關注這個部分那接下來要談關於教育的部分我想大家都認同教育是很重要很重要每一個人的基本權利可是目前我們在看到所有教育現場已經開始反映出來的問題包含偏鄉小校的廢校或者是很多私立大學退場的時候"},{"start":318.123,"end":324.687,"text":"教育部則是相關部會如何去因應這個很大的困境已經在發生了而這個我會回應到就是我剛剛說的授教權是基本權利這件事情"},{"start":336.135,"end":336.235,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":360.189,"end":377.505,"text":"我相信所有大人都為這件事情感到焦慮跟不知所措所以我們辦公室在過去一年當中邀請了教育部跟衛福部發動相關的討論我們也拜託國發會開啟相關的研究但是對於這個世代的年輕人身心健康到底困擾的面向還有哪些那起點又是什麼"},{"start":378.166,"end":405.632,"text":"未來有可能解放又是什麼我們也希望在談到身心健康的時候我們辦公室在這件事情上也會把相關關懷放入我們的青年基本法當中最後我們希望成立青年事務的專責跟同時跨部會的平台論述如同我剛剛說的他不僅要專責他也要跨平台討論的機制並且要一個長期收集第一線執行相關政策的相關單位也就是說讓所有的地方青年還有相關的關係人口還有相關單位"},{"start":408.332,"end":408.432,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d10a7c1756a8ef0c817edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac791803c53c405139c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:27:18 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11:29:59","影片長度":"00:07:27","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":447,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:29:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T11:22:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時22分）謝謝主席，我們請司法院秘書長，還有民事廳的廳長，還有法務部行政執行署署長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長、周廳長跟法務部黃署長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝秘書長，也謝謝主席今天安排這麼有意義的一個題目，這也應該是很難得在司法及法制委員會可以一直繼續開下去，不用中途被喊散會。","有關強制執行保險契約，目前有兩個機關，一個是法院的民事執行處，然後另外一個是法務部的執行署。我先請教一下，我根據財政部的報告，財政部針對如果欠稅的話現在是委由法務部行政執行署來執行，是不是？"],["黃署長玉垣：是的。"],["李委員坤城：根據財政部的報告，國稅局從111年12月9號到113年4月30號，這段時間應該就是在最高法院民事大法庭裁定之後，國稅局強制執行人壽契約的案件有509件，起徵稅額是2.54億，這個是委由法務部行政執行署來做執行，我看了一下，你們這個執行有一個執行的原則，在你們的報告裡面也有，對不對？你們的執行原則有四個原則：第一個，傷害險及健康醫療險，還有一個一年期的短壽險（微型保單），還有第三個，保險金額累計金額新臺幣90萬以下的小型壽險，還有預估解約金還有扣除手續費後10萬元以下的壽險契約不宜扣押及執行，對不對？"],["黃署長玉垣：對，這是4月訂的，因為目前還在做滾動式的檢討，到底適不適合我們正在瞭解中。"],["李委員坤城：這是今年4月訂的？"],["黃署長玉垣：對。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得法務部這個執行的原則其實可以讓法院來做參考，因為大法庭解釋之後，法院有關保單的執行案數暴增，從112年1月到113年3月，核發扣押有3萬4,680件、終止保險契約有8,712件。","我剛剛也聽很多委員在講，這部分不是只有法院的案件增加，其實我們看到更多是保險人因為被扣了保單之後，所衍生出他們的附約，不管是健康險、或是壽險的一些相關問題，我們看到的是這個問題！可是我剛剛聽到你們在回復委員答詢的時候，尤其在法院的部分，你們目前有沒有什麼相關的準則？"],["吳秘書長三龍：事實上，跟執行署的公法上的執行還是不太一樣，但有些我們會參考，畢竟民事執行處還是債權人、債務人之間的一種私法上執行，跟執行處的執行……"],["李委員坤城：秘書長，我是認為啦，這部分可能請保險局施局長過來，就相關業務來講應該是保險局，有關行政執行署的規定，我認為也可以讓法院做參考啦，那保險局局長你認為呢？目前你們關於這部分有相關的措施，第一個，就是不及於附約嘛，或是有一些排除在執行的範圍。而我看了一下行政執行署相關的不予扣押範圍，那保險局認為呢？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，行政執行署這一個原則其實是跟我們討論的結果，我們未來的參考原則還會重新再檢討、再訂定，提供司法院還有行政執行署來參考。"],["李委員坤城：是呀！這個是行政執行署找過保險局討論嘛。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["李委員坤城：那你們在保險法相關規定還沒修改之前，可不可以就先按照這個讓法院做參考？"],["施局長瓊華：是，我們就準備要做這個事情。"],["李委員坤城：不然我剛剛聽了不管是秘書長或是廳長，他們覺得目前沒有一個相關的準則，不管是士林法院或是臺北法院，每個法院可能遇到的法官不一樣，裁決出來的效果就不一樣啊！我認為這個就可以當作法院的相關準則，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：有……"],["李委員坤城：秘書長，您認不認同？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個盡量，就……"],["李委員坤城：又是盡量！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["李委員坤城：我剛剛就是聽你這樣，不管是我們的召委或是莊瑞雄委員，你在回復的時候就說盡量或是說怎麼樣，那廳長呢？"],["周廳長玫芳：跟委員報告，因為我們的執行債權人是一般民眾或者是金融機構，不是行政機關，所以我們跟行政執行署的強制執行的性質不太一樣，我們一旦自己訂定一些不予執行的標準或要點出來，其實債權人會異議，所以我們要面對的是聲明異議這個壓力，我們雖然把規則訂出來，債權人不買單，那這個案件量又會暴增，所以我們是在這兩個對立的衝突下做平衡，我們會盡量，但是不一定會如同行政執行署做相同的規定。"],["李委員坤城：好，我聽到秘書長說這個方向啦，有關這個準則，我還是認為保險局這邊在最短的時間……你們可以多久時間出來一個準則讓法院做參考？1個月？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我們5月底就要討論了。"],["李委員坤城：5月底就要討論？"],["施局長瓊華：對！"],["李委員坤城：5月底討論，然後不知道多久才會出來啊！"],["施局長瓊華：不會啦，6月應該就可以送給他們參考。"],["李委員坤城：好啊，因為引起最多民怨的其實是在法院，案件也特別多，我希望有一個準則，其實也是減輕法官的負荷量，對於債務人也有相對的保障，當然我們保障債權，但是我們認為有一些主約結束之後的附約，就是剛剛大家提到的，不管是健康險或是其他的保單，其實要保障弱勢，這個也是我們今天特別召開這場會議最主要的一個原因，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員、謝謝秘書長等。謝謝李委員的提問，也讓民事廳廳長有機會說明，行政執行署跟法院、司法院在處理不同要點、原則所適用、面對的對象是不太一樣的。","在這裡也跟在場的委員報告，我們現在進行的議程在立法院可以透過網路連結看到即時影像，我之前也跟大家報告了，今天這個專題報告事實上包括民眾、民間的電臺主動告知民眾要來收看，剛剛我們在臨提處理過程中，也有已經看到臨提處理過程的民眾打電話call in給電臺的主持人，他傳簡訊要我謝謝在場的委員、也謝謝我們今天列席的機關代表，謝謝大家，這些可能深為此所苦的民眾看到我們今天的即時處理，他們都如釋重負，希望能夠早日解除這樣的困擾。","接下來繼續邀請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","有請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","有請吳召委宗憲。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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對不對你們執行原則有四個原則第一個"},{"start":104.961,"end":123.352,"text":"傷害險期健康醫療險、一年期短受險、保險金額累計金額新台幣90萬以下的小型受險、預估解約金及扣除手續費後10萬元以下的受險契約,不宜扣押及執行。"},{"start":126.094,"end":127.455,"text":"這個法院的這個有關這個保單的這個執行這個案數是暴增"},{"start":156.444,"end":177.011,"text":"這個從112年1月到113年的3月合法扣押有34680件中時保險契約有8712件那我剛剛也聽了很多的委員在講這個不是只有說就你們法院來講這個案件是增加其實我們看到是更多這個"},{"start":179.175,"end":201.84,"text":"保險人他們因為被扣了這個保單之後所衍生出來的他們的這個復約不管是這個健康險或是說一些受險的一些相關的一些問題我們看到的是這個問題那可是我剛剛聽到了這一個你們在回覆這一個委員的這個答詢的時候尤其在法院的部分其實法院的部分你們目前有沒有什麼相關的準則"},{"start":203.814,"end":207.395,"text":"市長秘書長我是認為啦我是認為這個可能請保險局這個司局長過來當然就這個相關的業務來講應該是保險局"},{"start":233.419,"end":234.7,"text":"保險局 保險局 保險局 保險局"},{"start":249.154,"end":249.515,"text":"那保險局認為咧?"},{"start":269.4,"end":282.911,"text":"報告委員行政執行署這個原則其實是跟我們討論的結果那我們未來的參考原則還會重新再檢討再提供司法院還有行政執行署來參考"},{"start":284.157,"end":301.754,"text":"這個是你們有跟這個其實執行所齁你們有去找過這個保險局來做討論嘛那你們這個在保險法相關規定還沒修改之前可不可以就先按照這個讓這個法院來做一個參考我們就準備要做這個事情阿不然我剛剛聽這個不管是秘書長或是廳長阿他們就覺得說欸這個目前齁沒有一個相關的準則"},{"start":307.72,"end":324.397,"text":"那每個法院不管是士林法院或是這個臺北法院他們每個法院可能遇到的法官不一樣裁決出來的效果就不一樣啊那這個我認為就可以來當作這一個法院的一個相關的準則啦對不對有民主黨您認不認同"},{"start":326.254,"end":326.274,"text":"委員"},{"start":342.035,"end":359.528,"text":"因為我們的執行債權人是一般民眾或者是金融機構不是行政機關所以我們跟行政執行署的強制執行的性質不太一樣我們一旦自己訂定一些不與執行的標準或要點出來其實債權人會異議"},{"start":361.89,"end":363.332,"text":"我聽到秘書長說是方向"},{"start":387.792,"end":408.985,"text":"這個準則我認為還是就是說保險局這邊這個在最短的時間你們可以多久的時間出來一個準則讓法院來做參考的一個月我們五月底就要討論了五月底就要討論五月底去討論然後不知道多久才會出來那六月應該就可以送給他們參考我是希望齁"},{"start":411.482,"end":425.078,"text":"在法院這邊因為引起最多民怨的其實是在法院案件也特別多那我希望說有一個準則其實也是減輕法官的這個負荷量那對於這個債務人也有相對的保障"},{"start":425.839,"end":426.379,"text":"主席李偉源"}]}},{"id":"152374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d41a661e6db04c2d4b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7e2bac01cfa5d53fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:10:33 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11:16:38","影片長度":"00:06:05","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":365,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:16:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T11:10:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時10分）謝謝主席。主席，有請司法院秘書長及金管會施局長。"],["主席：有請吳秘書長及施局長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：因為我時間比較有限，所以我一次先把題目講完。我所關心的當然就是有關於保單借款的部分，其實我想施局長非常清楚，在疫情期間因為有保單借款的紓困，受惠的人數達到16萬424人，整個總貸金額是142.67億元，這對於許多當時的家庭來講是一場及時雨，也許不多，但是確實是讓他們有機會能夠使用。很謝謝主席特別安排今天我們討論的主題，就是它會不會變成接下來……如果未來有債權情況發生的時候，現在我在坊間聽到的是，有一些保險營業員直接跟客戶說要不要先把保單拿去借款，這樣子的話，準備金會降低，未來被強制執行的時候，金額就下降了，甚至於對於債權人來講，它就沒有那麼重要。","這個事情回到務實面來講，會變成什麼狀況？就是當有這樣的情況出來的時候，對於保險公司來講，會非常地審慎評估保單借款要保人的必要性，因為權衡之下，保險公司也要確保債權或者未來的部分。往前來推演，我想就教的是，不論是司法院或保險局，現在在強制執行的過程當中，到底保單借款的法律順位是什麼？如果就人壽保險單示範條款第十八條來講的話，保險公司一定是先扣除包括欠款等等之後，對於所剩的餘額，它可以要求拿回來；但是如果用強制執行法的話，我們都知道法的位階是高於條款及條約的，它是以依法優先受償者之外，其他的債權人是按照數額來分攤。","我剛剛先講後面這一張簡報，再講前面這個部分，是因為現在這個法在這裡，如果站在保險公司的立場，我非常擔心保單借款借出去之後，我也是債權人之一，但是如果就數額來講，我是不是平均分配的數額要比較少、要跟別人攤？但是錢是我的保單借出去的，再加上這個法規的條款跟執行法當中的位階又不對等。所以我想要就教兩位，這樣子的狀況未來有沒有可能產生？是不是請施局長先來回應，現在對於跟壽險公會溝通的過程當中，有沒有這樣的回應？有沒有可能有一個狀況是真的會變成好像後續大家都會覺得如果這個保單值錢，尤其如果是身懷巨債的人，是不是就先把保單拿去借款？如果是這樣，今天我們討論的東西都沒有什麼好說的，因為強制執行的過程中就已經「刣嘸肉」了，因為他的保單拿去借款了。"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，保單借款其實是保險契約賦予要保人的權利，如果他要借款的話，其實保險公司在一定的保單價值準備金的成數之下是不可以拒絕的。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["施局長瓊華：以目前來看，民法第三百四十條有規定，如果今天已經被扣押，扣押以後才保單借款的話，確實不能抵銷。"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["施局長瓊華：但是如果是在……"],["林委員楚茵：扣押之前。"],["施局長瓊華：扣押之前已經行使……"],["林委員楚茵：或是他覺得自己可能還不出錢來了，就趕快先去保單借款。"],["施局長瓊華：因為扣押之前他已經行使了保單借款的話，這個部分從過去的判決來看，確實是不能……這個部分就可以行使抵銷權，不能被後面參與分配。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想問一下司法院，如果就這個法律的位階來講的話，因為我們都知道，人壽保險單示範條款只是個條規，甚至於只是寫在保單裡頭的一個項目，但是就強制執行法來說，它的位階是比較高的，所以我們怎麼樣來因應？因為我也必須講，這些東西都需要保險公司願意配合，然後不要說我們未來執行了之後，會產生一些執行面上面的困擾，是不是要修法呢？或者是怎麼樣？有沒有跟這個金管會這邊來做一些討論？"],["周廳長玫芳：因為有幾位委員針對這個問題，其實事前都有討論過一部分，但是最後的結論還沒達成，所以這個部分如果有需要做這樣的改變是需要修法。"],["林委員楚茵：好，最後問一下施局長，跟壽險公會這邊有溝通嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：這一個部分應該壽險公會他們討論還是依照示範條款這樣一個精神在處理。"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["施局長瓊華：也就是說，扣押前的部分，要保人還是可以行使他保單借款的權利，而且這個部分就保險公司來講，他是可以行使抵銷權。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以現在對於保險公會或者是保險公司來說，他們覺得比較要反應的是案件量突然增加，但是至於後面後續的操作上面是比較沒有爭議的部分。因為我們還是覺得雖然在法律位階上不同，但是保險的條款還是可以按照這個部分來做執行。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝委員、謝謝秘書長。","現在我們來處理臨時提案，請宣讀。","臨時提案1：","最高法院民事大法庭於111年12月9日作出108年度台抗大字第897號裁定：「執行法院於必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約，命第三人保險公司償付解約金。」","然實務執行面臨大量執行案件湧入，造成執行機關作業面衝擊，保早價值低仍被執行保單解約、健康/傷害險被執行至保障受損等情形，形同殺雞取卵。","為兼顧債權人、債務人及其他利害關係人權益，維護保險保障功能，建請司法院參考司法院於107年8月7日函頒之「刑事案件量刑及定執行刑參考要點」之例，會同金管會保險局，法務部執行署，壽險公會根據保單類型、解約金訂定排除範圍並設定一定金額以下解約金、理賠金不得扣押及執行等項，制定「保單強制執行參考原則」。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　莊瑞雄　　羅智強　　陳俊宇　　吳思瑤　　林楚茵　　林思銘　　吳宗憲"],["主席：現在處理臨時提案1，請問機關有無其他意見或補充、修改？莊委員請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委及在場委員、列席官員。這個提案，我覺得非常棒，但是是不是可以再加一個？因為以這個提案的話，我看到解決的問題是說整個保險契約終止或者解除以後，我們在債權人在執行他理賠扣押上限的問題而已，是不是也一併把它解決，再加一個我們剛剛幾位委員在質詢裡面所提到的，也請我們司法院會同金融監理機關這邊趕快去制定，參考國外的法制，增訂介入權，讓關係人可以有這個機會來參與，讓整個法制更完備，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，我們先請機關表示意見，我們再來看有沒有更精進的方式，好不好？來，有請司法院廳長做說明。"],["周廳長玫芳：有關介入權的部分，主管機關應該是金管會，不是司法院，可能沒有辦法在同一包提案裡面解決，以上。"],["主席：這樣子，在場委員羅委員要表示意見嗎？請。"],["羅委員智強：我很認同鍾佳濱委員這個提案，事實上，我覺得現在這個問題有一個東西是不是能夠請教一下我們的主管機關？就是說一定金額以下的解約金跟理賠金不得扣押及執行，這個「一定金額」，你們有一個大概所謂的想法嗎？「一定金額」大概是多少？"],["主席：麻煩請施局長幫忙做個說明。"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，這個部分我們還在討論，當初我們有討論到的是解約金的部分，倒還沒有討論到理賠給付的問題，我們當初初步有討論看看，那時候有算一個金額大概10萬元左右就不要，就是超過10萬元以上才去做這樣的一個強制執行，但是這個前提是我們把傷害險、健康險這些保障型的險種都已經先排除了，針對一般有儲蓄型的險種，它就適用一定金額以下不予扣押，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，還有沒有補充？我跟各位委員徵詢一下，首先，這個提案我們在完成處理後，都還可以歡迎委員加入連署，尤其是非常歡迎財政委員會的委員，因為這個案子在我們司法及法制委員會能夠處理一部分，剛剛莊委員所說的部分可能要回到財政委員會，透過財委的部分去協助推動修法，這個先做說明。","這個文字的部分，因為我剛剛看了一下，我把最後一段唸一遍，因為只有最後一段有些文字上的意見，「為兼顧債權人、債務人及其他利害關係人權益，維護保險保障功能」底下我就把它改掉，把「建請司法院參考」幾個字先拿掉，「以司法院107年8月7日函頒之……」，以括號內部的要點為例，這部分保持原來的樣子，在逗點後面寫「建請司法院會同金管會、保險局、法務部執行署、壽險公會，根據保單類型、解約金訂定排除範圍，並設定一定金額以下解約金、理賠金不得扣押及執行等項，制定『保單強制執行參考原則』。」","我想這樣才不會造成誤解，因為畢竟前面的參考要點跟後面的參考原則是兩個完全不同類型的東西，所以我們把它作為一個例，然後再建請司法院來會同其他相關機關訂定。請問各位委員，如果文字上這樣修改是否可行？可以喔！好，請問在場委員還有沒有其他的修正意見？沒有的話，我們就照修正後文字通過，謝謝。","作會議程序的宣告，先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行至議程所列事項含預算解凍案均處理完畢為止。","接下來請李委員坤城詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:57:35 - 11:03:50","影片長度":"00:06:15","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":375,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:03:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T10:57:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時57分）主席、各位委員，有請司法院秘書長。"],["主席：有請吳秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好。昨天跟今天早上，外交及國防委員會在審查陸海空軍懲罰法，這裡面很重要的就是說，到底什麼樣的……因為在討論的過程當中一直希望，司法院針對軍人怎麼樣懲罰，它是一個懲戒還是懲罰。譬如說，軍官、士官、士兵在行政院版的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面，第十八條中譬如說「撤職」，士官也有「撤職」，這個都是職業軍人，然後士兵也有職業軍人，有「廢止起役」，然後也有「剝奪或減少退除給與」，這個軍官、士官都有，這是財產權的剝奪，甚至是工作權的撤職，所以一直在討論，這些比較重的，是不是可以剝奪他的工作權、是不是能夠在懲戒法院裡面……更涉及到司法院的權責，所以今天就是提出來請秘書長回去請相關的同仁再好好地研議，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。因為現在我們的軍人真的是愈來愈少了，所以大家要保障他們的工作權，上次因為時間的關係，今年3月4號我在這邊有質詢過秘書長，當然這個案子更早之前我也質詢過前任的秘書長。就是我們有一個鄉親已經八十幾歲，他從小就跟著父母親在自己祖先留下來的土地耕作、種植，但是因為他沒有所有權，它是國有土地，所以就被判刑，被判刑時引用了「上列被告因違反山坡地保育利用條例」。事實上整個查了之後，雖然有法扶的律師，法扶基金會今天也有在場，當初也有請法扶的律師協助，可能畢竟法多如牛毛，不是盡然全部都瞭解，也不知道它不是山坡地範圍內，不瞭解水土保持法，或是山坡地保育區跟山坡地搞不清楚。事實上，山坡地保育區跟山坡地範圍內不一樣，山坡地保育利用條例是指山坡地範圍內，所以不一樣。後來這位老先生八十幾歲被判刑，一個禮拜之後就過世，他說這是他祖先用的土地，現在卻被判刑。後來查了之後才知道，原來它不是山坡地，所以引用了錯誤的法律，雖然他已經過世了，但還是要平反，畢竟他的子女一查，永遠是犯刑法、被判刑的人的子女。甚至他的子女要繼續使用，也就變成是違法的，因為被判刑了。這也會涉及到如果他的孩子是軍人，也有可能因為違反刑事法，萬一被告，又要被撤職。所以類似像這樣的問題都必須要去解決。","109年11月5日，本席也曾經在這邊質詢過。這個部分你們也很慎重，臺灣高等法院暨所屬法院法律座談會列了這個臨時提案，有甲說跟乙說，結果主持人說「本提案保留，不予討論」，這樣重大的事情！所以我才會在上次特別請秘書長回去要請同仁再重新討論，上次秘書長說再研議，這個部分如果還沒有結果的話，不要忘記，繼續趕快去處理，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：請刑事廳……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要列入管考。"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，這部分已經有送請高院進行座談會的研議，就是列為今年度法律座談會的討論研議。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，很好，做詳細的說明，好不好？最主要是要做詳細的說明，秘書長，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個會這樣。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員，謝謝秘書長。在這裡預作會議宣告，待會休息5分鐘之後，我們回來處理臨時提案。如果有意加入連署的委員，請趕快加入，謝謝。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"],["主席：先作會議程序宣告，我們現在繼續開會。剛剛宣告臨時提案的處理時間，先請林委員楚茵質詢完後，再進行臨時提案的處理。","請林委員楚茵。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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"end":155.782,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。．並備質詢"},{"start":177.015,"end":195.65,"text":"上列被告因違反山坡地保育利用條例違反山坡地保育利用條例事實上整個查了之後雖然有法輔的律師法輔基金會這邊也有在當初有請法輔的律師也協助"},{"start":196.653,"end":223.401,"text":"啊可能這個畢竟法多如牛毛不是盡然全部都瞭解啊也不知道他他不是三坡地範圍內啊這個水土保持法或是這個啊三坡地保育區跟三坡地搞不清楚啊事實上這個三坡地保育區跟三坡地範圍內不一樣啊三坡地保育利用條例是指三坡地範圍內啊所以這個不一樣啊"},{"start":227.133,"end":237.718,"text":"後來被判刑了這位老先生八十幾歲被判刑一個禮拜之後就過世他是講我祖先用的土地我現在被判刑"},{"start":239.235,"end":265.738,"text":"所以後來查結果才知道原來他不是山坡弟不是山坡弟所以引用了錯誤的法律錯誤的法律雖然他已經過世了但是還是要平反啊畢竟他的子女永遠被一查這個是一個犯刑刑法的被判刑的子女"},{"start":266.912,"end":286.699,"text":"甚至他的職你要繼續使用啊要繼續使用啊也就變成說這個是違法的啊你被判刑的啊這也會涉及到如果他的孩子是軍人也會說違反刑事法外被告也又要被撤職"},{"start":288.268,"end":312.976,"text":"所以類似像這樣都必須要去解決所以本席也曾經在這邊質詢過109年11月5號所以這個部分你們也很慎重的台灣高等法院及所屬法院法律座談會列了這個臨時提案有假說跟已說結果呢"},{"start":315.938,"end":328.827,"text":"主持人的本提案保留不予討論,本提案不予,這麼重大的事情,所以我才會在上次,上次的時候特別"},{"start":330.453,"end":344.551,"text":"請秘書長回去請同仁再重新來討論上次秘書長說演議再演議這個部分如果還沒有結果的話不要忘記繼續來趕快處理好不好"},{"start":347.281,"end":347.761,"text":"好 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11:06:03","影片長度":"00:07:13","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T10:58:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-09T11:06:03+08:00","duration":433,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.94096875,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.88909375,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.26846875000001,"end":79.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.35596875,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.15971875000001,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.68534375000002,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.54534375,"end":142.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.01284375,"end":181.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.69034375,"end":229.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.07096875000002,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.96846875000003,"end":297.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.22909375,"end":311.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.40846875,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.03659375,"end":342.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.35284375000003,"end":343.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.33159375,"end":367.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.77096875,"end":370.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.71971875,"end":399.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.79971875,"end":431.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.65534375000004,"end":433.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.779,"end":26.908,"text":"我們今天在這邊其實都是對於這個青年發展法的支持一定是支持的但我思考的方向就是說我們訂了這個法之後怎麼樣讓政府對於青年的照顧可以更好第二個就是說我們這個法訂定之後它會不會危害到原本政府對於青年照顧就從兩個方向來討論這個事情"},{"start":29.289,"end":45.15,"text":"第一件事情就是根據我們的這個青年基本法的草案不管是各個版本都強調就是說政府應該要對於青年的十一住行、就業、就學各個面向都應該要有更好的照顧這個是大家都知道的事情"},{"start":46.071,"end":46.171,"text":"主席"},{"start":63.181,"end":78.801,"text":"請問一下我們這個法定了之後有沒有解決了什麼現行沒有解決的部分第二個是有沒有我剛講了有沒有危害到青年部分我舉個例子因為我們這個法裡面有談到"},{"start":80.421,"end":107.672,"text":"我們是不是要訂定一個專責的青年機構然後那個青年機構它的位階是什麼?它的功能是什麼?這個部分我可以舉過去地方政府的發展的案例讓大家了解因為以前我是來自於地方議員在過去新北市政府也有成立一個青年局那當時青年局成立的時候其實面臨到定位不明的問題為什麼?因為有很多業務實際上是各個機關已經在做的"},{"start":108.692,"end":136.724,"text":"社會住宅青年創業公托教育這些本來是分屬在各個的業務機關結果就是因為新北市成立青年局之後為了要讓這個青年局有事做所以就把很多業務從其他的單位移撥過來那移撥過來造成什麼狀況呢例如說我們非常重視青年的創業所以就把青年創業移到了青年局"},{"start":137.608,"end":152.497,"text":"那結果青年局來推動創業有做得比原本的經濟發展局好嗎?實際上是沒有的 為什麼?因為在過去青年經濟發展局他在發展業務的時候他有一個計畫叫做大手拉小手"},{"start":153.197,"end":181.019,"text":"就是說讓這些青年在創業的時候他就需要資源或業務可以透過經發局既有的他的一些廠商的關係然後推動一個大手加小手的計畫讓這些已經業績穩定的公司把業務給這些青創公司讓青創公司在剛成立的時候就有基本的業務所以實際上青創業務放在經濟發展局的推動實際上是比放在青年局還要好的"},{"start":181.792,"end":199.68,"text":"所以這個就出現我剛剛所講的狀況我們如果成立一個專責機構有沒有一些業務的推動它會反而會去影響到原本對青年的照顧這是我們必須要去思考的問題那所以假設我們今天要成立一個青年的專責機構我們要考慮它是剛剛我聽很多同學講的建議很好"},{"start":200.02,"end":219.467,"text":"他是不是只是一個統籌性的東西比如說他去列管各個單位應該要有的青年政策然後把青年的聲音把它納入定期的去追蹤這些業務單位是不是有如質如期把青年的聲音把它反映出來然後把政策如期的推動"},{"start":220.307,"end":220.527,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":238.098,"end":265.026,"text":"他怎麼發揮督導的功能然後把青年的聲音把它納入我覺得這是我們必須要考慮的否則可能我覺得就會出現到我剛剛講的那個新北市政府青年局的狀況他一開始的定位非常的不明確那時候臺北市說要成立青年局還問這個前新北市青年局局長說這個青年局要怎麼弄然後新北市前青年局長還跟臺北市說好像成立青年局沒什麼用為什麼會出現這個狀況"},{"start":266.846,"end":282.422,"text":"就一開始的時候定位不明嘛所以立刻就會發現說好像不知道怎麼辦所以我過去在議會質詢那個青年局長的時候我說你們青年局的業務到底是什麼一開始也講不太出來他說他們有成立一個科有做調查研究去研究青年的需求我說就這樣喔"},{"start":283.523,"end":296.136,"text":"這個不需要你成立一個局嘛青年需求實際上從媒體或是各個委員會很多人聲音都會反映出來啊我不用成立一個局在做這個事啊我應該思考的是說如何去成為一個機構是真正可以照顧青年嘛這是"},{"start":298.291,"end":314.057,"text":"我的第一個看法 第二個看法就是說 那我們政府本身除了訂這個法之外 我們真的有重視青年嗎比如說青年的很多聲音 它反映出來之後 它要怎麼落實成為真正的政策"},{"start":315.117,"end":343.515,"text":"然後成為政府施政的考慮就像很多青年都考慮都非常關心的低薪問題我們就很想問現在的政府你們也知道說青年關心低薪問題可是你對於低薪問題你拿出什麼解方出來看不到啊我們只有看到不管是主計處或者是相關單位拿一些數據出來騙人說一月的平均薪資是八萬多所以很多青年看到這樣的數據都很生氣說對不起我拉低了薪資那"},{"start":344.715,"end":369.995,"text":"過去在疫情期間很多青年反應說政府應該要如何去改變那個疫苗政策讓所有青年也可以打到疫苗但我們政府有根據這些青年聲音去做調整嗎沒有所以我非常鼓勵所有的青年把聲音表現出來可是當我們的聲音透過體制表現出來之後那政府如果不重視的話那是不是有一個什麼辦法可以讓他"},{"start":371.772,"end":398.284,"text":"真的把大家的聲音當一回事我覺得這也是我們關心的還有除了在場有非常多青年代表我覺得非常棒大家其實希望說你們聲音通過體制把問題解決像我們在我的選區所在地也有大學我跟大學的學員會長也保持很好的互動有時候他也會針對大學周邊的比如說要做什麼人行穿越道啊或者是什麼水溝蓋這些問題全部幫他解決但現在問題來了"},{"start":399.861,"end":419.575,"text":"學問會如果希望你有增加公共參與那為什麼在增加公共參與的時候還必須要透過民意代表才能解決這個問題理論上大家希望的應該是我作為一個學生知識團體我直接就可以跟政府反映政府就能夠直接幫我解決問題但為什麼還要透過民意代表所以這也是大家想要解決的問題"},{"start":420.876,"end":430.875,"text":"以上我先說我們是支持這個法案才會來這裡但是在訂定這個法案之後方方面面他有很多細節要考慮的也給大家作為參考 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d850c94013d929805b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac72beb4618946eee9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:05 - 10:57:15","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":790,"end_time":"2024-05-09T10:57:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T10:44:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時44分）謝謝主席。有請秘書長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，會議詢問。以前疫情期間，麥克風不是都會消毒嗎？"],["主席：是，不曉得有沒有準備，有準備酒精嗎？我們等一下，我們停個1分鐘。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，我可以消毒一下嗎？"],["主席：沒問題，我們暫停一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝。"],["主席：我們繼續。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席。秘書長，辛苦了！"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：上週4月24日針對司法人員減壓有一個專報，我那天還有一些是我認為還需要跟您進一步對話，今天主席又安排了司法院，我就再把握時間跟您對話，你們也在5月7日依據我們上一次的專報，提具了一個報告。你們的報告就是要提修法，中央政府總員額法如何來突破，給予司法人員增補一個最好的支持，你們那個報告上面寫得很好的一句話，世界上並不存在唾手可得的正義，也就是司法人員是捍衛社會正義、國家正義很重要的一道防線，但是要給司法人員最好的支持，制度面、人力、物力各方面。所以我上一次針對專報提出的幾個減壓，我們要對司法人員賦予他更好的工作環境，讓他發揮司法的效能，也就是我的具體建議，我還需要花點時間，我再跟大家再分享一次，第一個，司法院應設心理調適假，重視員工身心調適的需求；第二個，吳思瑤支持我們要合理增加員額，而司法院應當來規劃增補人力的時程；第三個，民事新收案量龐大，但是濫訴的駁回案件少，我們如何強化來審查落實；第四個，民事訴訟裁判費21年沒有調整，從2003年開始到現在沒有調整，我們是不是能夠適度的調整以防杜濫訴？最後一個，也是我希望司法院針對這整個人員減壓的對策，其實要委託一個專業實證的研究，這是我的幾大主張。","從我4月24日的質詢，我要肯定一下，我當時提出臺北地院針對你們已經上路的員工協助方案EAP，但是這個心理健康關懷方案只適用給法官，像司法事務官、書記官、法官助理，這些其他職工沒有辦法適用，我秀出來的「Before」是你們臺北地院原本的公告，我一質詢之後，「After」馬上改，也就是臺北地院除了法官，所有的法官助理們、事務官們、書記官們都可以來用EAP，就應當如此。所以秘書長，我們是不是再花個時間去盤點我們這一套EAP的關懷方案，應當所有的地院都要適用好嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：擴大所有的司法人員。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也看到我們的院長，許院長有建議要認真來面對減壓的相關計畫，所以臺中地院動作很快，它就做了一個公告，臺中地院的法官、書記官們享有半天假，而且是公假，可以去美術館看展覽，您知道有這個制度嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有這種制度。各法院都會彈性來運用。"],["吳委員思瑤：彈性來運用嘛！是用公假半天，我不曉公假半天這個是一年只給半天還是多久給半天，還是怎麼樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個各法院可以彈性處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，您認為這是不是一個好的作法？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個是很好的作法。"],["吳委員思瑤：非常好！像我自己在立法院每天這麼高壓，上美術館、去音樂廳、戲劇院就是我的減壓。所以我認為臺中地院的作法非常好，但是它是單一的小利多，我覺得去全面推廣好嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且擴大跟我們的文化部來串聯合作，文化部可以給予其他可能package的合作，包括野趣文化資產也可以啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我非常樂意，我過去都在教育及文化委員會，我可以串聯文化部跟司法院來做成這樣一個公假的制度，去美術館、去音樂廳好嗎？我們來做院際之間的合作。"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是這畢竟是一個片面、局部的小利多，我希望是能夠有常態化的制度，也就是心理假，你們有沒有認真研議在思考？人事總處已經針對所有公務員都要研議了，你們的看法呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個應該是很好的方向啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：你們就啟動研議好嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：趕快跟銓敘部一起來研議，因為中華民國的公務體系、司法體系，大家應當都需要善用身心調適假。回到我上次說的，也是你們提供的數字，法官還缺499人，總人力的需求是5,536人，這是到目前為止，所以補20年可能都補不齊。","下一頁是你們5月7號所提供的書面報告，也是我剛剛援引的，我也很認真地從頭看到尾。你們說要修總員額法，修法交給立法院、交給我們來做，但是你們要突破的是先補齊492人，對不對？因為現在1萬5,000裡頭預算員額只有1萬4,508嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：先補492，第二個還要再突破總員額1萬5,000的上限，那你覺得樂觀嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以我們當時就很期盼人總也能夠來協助，看能不能突破上限啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：修法我們來做，我絕對支持，但是我認為如何讓立法院協助你們、幫你們一把，就是你們除了要快速地補齊492人之外，也要把1萬5,000這個天花板打破，你就提出一個更具體的人力增補計畫跟時程。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：你提出來，被國會認為合理、可行，那我們就有更大的助力了不是嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們這個人力增補計畫跟時程，我不會像黃國昌委員今天要你明天交出資料來、一個禮拜交出資料來，您要多久時間可以去做一個完整的？兩個月？三個月？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們應該是在兩、三個月內就可以……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我就給你兩個月的時間，好不好？去做一個好的時程跟計畫。"],["吳秘書長三龍：假如能三個月可能會……還要評鑑啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：三個月，OK，三個月合理，我認為要好好做。而且我要在這裡提醒，考試進用的是我們比較常使用的嘛，對不對？多元進用的比較有困難，但是多元進用的反而是即戰力，所以未來要補強眼前的492人，或是未來1萬5,000的天花板要打開，我也希望你們具體針對考試進用類，跟多元進用類，去找出可行的方法，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：放在你們的計畫裡頭。就我個人認為，多元進用，第一個它是即戰力，它不用再耗費像你考試進用，還要再七、八年的養成時間，而且多元進用來的這些、從民間來的，或是從轉任而來的司法人員，他本身就已經比較具備這些實務的經驗了，也就是比較能夠一上工就上手，好嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以在你們的計畫時程裡頭，我希望你們針對考試進用跟多元進用有清楚的、不同的approach提供給國會，讓我們來協助你們突破中央政府總員額法，好嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：再下一頁，我們來講講濫訴，司法院2,180位法官，每年新收的案件從民事案件314萬，跟刑事的案件49萬加起來，共363萬件，這是每年的新案，還不包括手上的舊案，所以平均一位法官每年要新收1,665件，這就是現在的困境，工作loading太大了。","濫訴的部分，我們民事訴訟法2021年1月修了，給予一個第二百四十九條的條款，也就是可以駁回濫訴的條款，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：您知道這個法條修了以後幫你們一把，法條上路到現在三年多，有幾個案子被駁回？我的資料是288案，正確嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：確實。"],["吳委員思瑤：您覺得這個數字有回應修法的良法美意，協助替大家減壓了嗎？該裁定駁回的、不符合程序或者是欠缺合理依據的就該駁回。288件、三年……"],["周廳長玫芳：因為呈現在訴訟案件裡面，如果做了實質、實體上的審判，用到第二百四十九條、第二百四十九條之一的案件相對會比較少一點，畢竟惡意或者是基於不當目的是相對少數。"],["吳委員思瑤：那您認為是本質上相對少數，還是我們現場的法官也會有他的壓力，我今天如果駁回的案子比較多，是不是會被我的上級認為我比較不認真辦案？會不會有這種心理壓力？"],["周廳長玫芳：不會、不會，依法審判沒有這種壓力，只是說我們的濫訴大部分不是落在實體審判方面，而是在程序。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒問題，我尊重法院裁定的專業，但是既然有民事訴訟法這一個武器、有這個法條，大家也應當該用則用好嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：我的目標是讓大家能夠減壓，減少更多的案件。","下一頁是那天沒講完的，21年沒有調整的訴訟費用，你們有沒有研議可以去想辦法？"],["周廳長玫芳：有，這個部分其實我們一直都在想辦法。"],["吳委員思瑤：想了什麼辦法？"],["周廳長玫芳：其實我們在民事訴訟法，還有一個第七十七條之二十七，高等法院就可以因為必要的情事來擬定數額，提高徵收、加徵的標準，我們現在已經跟高等法院研商，讓他們啟動研究程序，看看是不是提高徵收標準來解決這個問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：我想問一下，臺灣的裁判費用跟國際的，你們有比較過嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：我們當時立法的時候，其實是跟日本徵收的比例大概相當，當時大概都是相當於1%，只是日本跟我們不一樣的是，日本的郵電費，也就是郵資它還要徵收。"],["吳委員思瑤：另外增加。"],["周廳長玫芳：我們現在修法以後是不用徵收了。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也支持你們勇敢去計算，當然如果我們要調漲裁判費用，也要去強化對弱勢的保護，不會讓司法因為他的政經地位高，就能夠擁有司法的權利，對於政經地位比較低的，我們有另外法律扶助的機構，這雙軌都要並進，但是基本上我認為，一個收費標準、徵收標準二十幾年沒有調整，是可以來考量合理地反映成本了，好不好？合理地反映，然後減少濫訴，也幫助我們的司法人員減壓、工作減量好嗎？所以我今天再一次把握機會，我的這幾個建議，請你們三個月統合給我一個完整的回復，好不好？我們一起加油，也希望大家每一次來國會，回去心情要儘量保持亮麗，否則來了國會就成了負能量，我覺得這不是民主國會存在的意義，我們都是正面的對話，加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員提供的正能量。先作會議程序的宣告：稍後在鄭委員天財詢答完畢後休息5分鐘。","接續請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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memory、看一下，那一天我問你，強制執行的案件堆積如山，司法院做了什麼？然後你說會後會提供書面報告給大家。因為我那天質詢的時候，你開始跟我扯啊！扯說提報了司法人員特考需用名額，那個是未來的事情。強制執行的案件堆積如山，影響到了非常多債權人、債務人的權益，造成第一線執行科的書記官，還有很多工作同仁的工作負擔，大家都快要爆肝了。我那天具體的問題是司法院做了什麼，你那天答不出來，我請你會後交書面，書面在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們實際上就是，在臺北地院執行處有增加7個執行股，包括有書記官7個人、執達員7個人、司法事務官5個人……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下。"],["吳秘書長三龍：另外也增加委外……"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，請你聽問題好嗎？第一個，我剛剛問你的是書面在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：書面的話，委員這邊，因為我們整理書面也要時間，有必要我們會馬上提供出來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你還需要多久？當初是你要求用書面跟我們回復，結果你今天跟大家講，如果有必要你會提供，司法院的態度是這樣嗎？我不敢相信耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量來配合。儘量配合。"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你什麼時候要提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：假如委員……"],["黃委員國昌：你也太離譜了吧！"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員有需要，我們會隨時……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫做我「有需要」！你看一下你上次答詢的內容，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那我們也要……"],["黃委員國昌：是你自己說要給書面耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：那我們也要準備的時間啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我剛剛問你嘛！你需要多少時間嘛？"],["吳秘書長三龍：1個禮拜之內提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：1個禮拜之內！上次質詢是幾月幾號？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：是幾月幾號？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個總是要彙整啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛……"],["吳秘書長三龍：總是要彙整。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我說你需要多少時間？上次是4月24日，你剛剛說需要1個禮拜，我問你東西在哪裡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們彙整出來，有需要我們會提供出來啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你這樣的回答我無法接受！當初是你自己開口說你要用書面回的喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：書面回答……"],["黃委員國昌：結果你今天跟大家講，有需要你們會提供。你什麼態度啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒有，書面我們當然會提供出來。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：剛剛不是講1個禮拜之內，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：從什麼時候開始算1個禮拜？"],["吳秘書長三龍：從今天回去……"],["黃委員國昌：好，從今天開始算1個禮拜。剛剛你說你有新增執行股，什麼時候新增的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那就是因應這個需要……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候新增的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那個……就已經都新增了。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候新增的？"],["周廳長玫芳：在4月的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：4月的時候才新增！來，看一下，回去看這個數字，我就是問你們過去這一、兩年做了什麼，結果今天在這邊說新增執行股，搞了半天，什麼時候新增的？2024年的4月喔！沒有關係，民事執行處有很多案件啦！有保險的、有非保險的，各式各類強制執行的案件，我上次質詢你們的時候是點出這個問題耶！點出這個問題的時候，我收到非常多民事執行處的工作同仁說謝謝，終於有立委幫他們講出這個問題了。我問你之前做了什麼，你說要用書面，到現在書面沒拿到，你說你還要1個禮拜；你今天在委員會說你有新增執行股，所以我問你什麼時候新增，原來是4月才新增喔！原來是4月才新增喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：機關在運作也有一定的程序，所以當然按照一定的程序來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下，這個案件數暴漲的情況，到2023年的時候已經爆表了，所以你司法院是怎麼樣？到今年4月開始有委員在問這個問題，今天才告訴大家，你是4月才新增執行股喔！沒有關係啦！1個禮拜之內請你把書面交出來，到底做了什麼，清楚地跟大家講。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會提出來、會提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：有關於判決查詢系統，這跟今天解凍的事由有關，你們自己再回去check一下，我常常查判決查不到，司法院的同仁幫秘書長把照片拍起來，地院的有、高院的有、最高法院的有，中間的抗字少一個，這個是什麼判決查詢系統啊！你們自己拍個照，這個是昨天晚上我隨便就找出來的。","請法務部，有一件事情請你們回去查清楚。我上次在這邊質詢，之前我們國會有職員很可惡，竟然勾結非法的詐騙集團，引進中國人來臺洗錢詐騙，去年11月判刑確定。通常這種案子發監執行要多久？"],["劉司長英秀：謝謝委員。不好意思，因為這個不是我管轄的業務，我回去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請你回去瞭解。"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：請你回去找他們解釋清楚。"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼這個人判刑確定到現在半年了，現在還在外面趴趴走？太離譜了啦！法務部現在是連發監執行的系統都出了狀況嗎？為什麼這個勾結外面的人，引進中國人到臺灣來搞非法、詐騙、洗錢的，到現在還在外面趴趴走，他是關係好嗎？判決確定都不用去關喔！有這種事情喔！請法務部回去瞭解一下。"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案件為什麼拖延這麼久？"],["劉司長英秀：是，我們瞭解後會再跟委員說明，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好。去年12月的時候，開始在網路上面流傳一個監聽的名單，那個監聽名單出來的時候，非常罕見，我們的調查局、我們的廉政署、我們的最高檢察署說這是典型的認知作戰，三大執法機關的新聞稿，我全部都拜讀完了，我老實說啦！我拜讀完了以後，看不出來他們說這個是認知作戰指的到底是什麼東西，但我關心一件事情，因為在我國目前基本上監聽是要法官核監聽票的，所以這不是只有檢察機關的事情，如果這是境外敵對勢力的認知作戰，事情很嚴重，為什麼很嚴重？因為監聽有它的密行性，如果讓他知道了你在監聽他，那你還聽什麼？沒有意義嘛！但是去年我們廉政署、最高檢察署、調查局發了新聞稿說這是認知作戰，但沒有回答一個問題，什麼問題？這個監聽的名單是真的還是假的？如果是真的，怎麼外流的？這很嚴重。秘書長同不同意這件事情很嚴重？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然嚴重啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好。法務部覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重？"],["劉司長英秀：是，是頗嚴重的。"],["黃委員國昌：好。既然很嚴重，蔡清祥說要強力偵辦，來！我先確定一下事實，這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的？既然嚴重，也是認知作戰，我們法律人實事求是，要從事實的確定開始，這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的？司法院有沒有去瞭解過？"],["吳秘書長三龍：政府機關有一定的分工，有些是涉及比較機密的那一部分，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是哪一部分……"],["黃委員國昌：我上面跟你講國安監聽，我全部都拿掉了，基本上這都是在辦貪腐案件，我一件一件去比對過了，因為當初這個監聽名單外流的時候，我非常震驚，有一些案子是之前我自己回到民間社會的時候就在追查的案子，我看了這個監聽名單，我非常的震驚，我的理由是我們國家檢調機關從法院那邊拿到了監聽票去監聽，這個名單會外流，非常可怕！如果是境外敵對勢力所掌握的，那就更可怕，我所知道，我目前在討論這個問題的時候，分兩個層次，第一個，如果這些名單是假的、如果這些名單全部都假的，我們就比較不用那麼擔心，因為這是典型的認知作戰嘛！拿假的東西跟大家說這是真的，但如果這是真的，問題就嚴重了，為什麼這一些被監聽的名單，竟然會在網路上面流傳，名單怎麼外洩的？這絕對不是發一個新聞稿說這個是認知作戰就可以解決的，現在問題來了，這些是真的監聽名單在外面，結果竟然在網路上就可以查得到，兩位剛剛都說非常的嚴重，法務部可不可以承諾徹查這些監聽名單怎麼外流的？可以嗎？"],["劉司長英秀：是，我們回去瞭解，會跟長官報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝秘書長和司長。","接下來有請傅委員崐萁、傅委員崐萁，傅委員崐萁不在。","我們有請吳委員思瑤質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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memory看一下那一天我問你喔強制執行的案件對基魯山司法院做了什麼然後你說會後會提供給書面報告給大家因為我那天質詢的時候你開始跟我扯啊扯說提報的司法人員特考需用名額那那個是未來的事情啊"},{"start":136.423,"end":159.06,"text":"強制執行的案件堆積如山影響到了非常多債權人債務人的權益造成了第一線執行科的書記官還有很多工作統人工作的負擔大家都快要爆肝了我那天具體的問題是司法院做了什麼你那天答不出來我請你會後交書面書面在哪裡"},{"start":159.821,"end":161.661,"text":"律師長請你聽問題好嗎?第一個我剛剛問你的是書面在哪裡?那書面的話那委員這邊因為我們這個"},{"start":188.84,"end":211.133,"text":"整理書面也要時間嘛有必要我們會馬上提供出來啦所以你還需要多久當初是你要求用書面跟我們回覆然後結果你今天跟大家講如果有必要你會提供司法院的態度是這樣嗎我不敢相信欸我們會盡量來配合啦對那你什麼時候要提供"},{"start":212.457,"end":220.403,"text":"你也太離譜了吧什麼叫我有需要欸你看一下你上次答詢的內容好不好是你自己說要給書面的欸對所以我剛問你嘛你需要多少時間嘛一個禮拜之內上次質詢是幾月幾號"},{"start":230.643,"end":250.186,"text":"那這個總是要彙整啊對嘛所以我說你需要多少時間上次你是4月24號你剛說需要一個禮拜我問你東西在哪裡我們會彙整出來有需要我們會提供出來啊對不起你這樣的回答我無法接受當初是你自己開口"},{"start":251.307,"end":272.18,"text":"所以你要用書面回答喔結果你今天跟大家講有需要你們會提供你什麼態度啊那書面我們當然會提供出來什麼時候提供那剛剛不是講一個禮拜之內我們從什麼時候開始算一個禮拜從今天開始算一個禮拜剛剛你說你有新增執行股什麼時候新增的那就是應應這個需要什麼時候新增的那個就已經都新增了什麼時候新增的"},{"start":281.425,"end":300.421,"text":"四月的時候才新增來看一下回去看這個數字我就是問你們過去這一兩年做了什麼結果今天在這邊說新增執行股改了半天什麼時候新增的2024年的4月"},{"start":303.749,"end":320.482,"text":"沒有關係啊民事執行處有很多案件啊有保險的有非保險的各式各類強制執行的案件我上次質詢你們的時候是點出這個問題欸我點出這個問題的時候我收到非常多民事執行處工作的同仁"},{"start":321.943,"end":324.504,"text":"機關在運作也有一定的程序啦"},{"start":345.334,"end":349.238,"text":"來 我們看一下我們看一下這個案件數暴漲的情況到2023年的時候已經爆表了所以你司法院是怎麼樣"},{"start":359.448,"end":376.927,"text":"到今年4月開始有委員在問這個問題今天才告訴大家你是4月才新增執行股喔沒有關係啊一個禮拜之內請你把書面交出來到底做了什麼清楚的跟大家講我們會提出來會提出來來"},{"start":380.29,"end":407.644,"text":"就有關於判決查詢系統這個相關吼跟今天解凍的事由有關係你們自己再回去check一下了我常常查判決查不到司法院的同仁幫秘書長把照片拍起來地院的有高院的有最高法院的沒有最高法院的有中間的抗制少一個這個是什麼判決查詢系統啊你們自己拍個照這個是我昨天晚上我隨便找就出來的"},{"start":410.706,"end":439.347,"text":"來請法務部有一件事情請你們請你們回去查清楚我上次在這邊質詢有我們之前國會的職員很可惡竟然勾結非法的詐騙集團引進中國人來台洗錢詐騙去年11月的時候判刑確定了去年11月判刑確定通常這種案子發監執行要多久"},{"start":441.803,"end":443.264,"text":"法務部現在是連發簽執行的系統都出了狀況嗎?"},{"start":469.111,"end":497.157,"text":"為什麼這個勾結外面的人引進中國人到台灣來搞非法詐騙洗錢的到現在還在外面趴趴照他是關係好嗎判決確定都不用去關喔有這種事情喔請法務部回去了解一下這個案件為什麼拖延這麼久我們了解後再跟我們說明謝謝去年12月的時候開始有"},{"start":498.311,"end":511.097,"text":"在網路上面流傳一個監聽的名單那個時候監聽的名單出來的時候非常罕見我們的調查局我們的廉政署我們的最高檢察署說這是典型的認知作戰"},{"start":512.384,"end":537.137,"text":"三大執法機關的新聞稿我全部都拜讀完了我老實說啦我拜讀完了以後我看不出來他們說這個是認知作戰指的到底是什麼東西但我關心一件事情因為在我國目前基本上面監聽是要法官核監聽票的所以這不是只有檢查機關的事情"},{"start":538.632,"end":554.779,"text":"如果這個是境外敵對勢力的認知作戰那事情很嚴重喔為什麼很嚴重因為監聽有它的密集性嘛你如果讓他知道了你再監聽他那你還聽什麼沒有意義嘛"},{"start":556.209,"end":582.608,"text":"但是去年我們廉政署、最高檢察署、調查局發了新聞稿說這是認知作戰但沒有回答一個問題什麼問題?這個監聽的名單是真的還是假的?如果是真的怎麼外流的?這很嚴重欸秘書長同不同意這件事情很嚴重?那當然嚴重啊好法務部覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重?"},{"start":584.11,"end":611.403,"text":"好 既然很嚴重的話蔡京強說這個我們要強力的偵辦來 我先確定一下事實這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的既然嚴重也是認知作戰嘛我們法律人實事求是要從事實的確定開始這些監聽的名單是真的還是假的司法院有沒有去了解過"},{"start":614.687,"end":634.492,"text":"政府機關有一定的分工啦那這些有些是涉及比較機密那一部分啦所以沒有沒有沒有我上面跟你講國安監聽我全部都拿掉了啦這個基本上都是在辦貪腐案件的啦我一件一件去比對過了"},{"start":635.692,"end":660.035,"text":"因為當初這個監聽名單外流的時候我非常震驚啊有一些案子是我們之前我自己回到民間社會的時候就在追查的案子我看了這個監聽名單我非常的震驚我的理由是說我們國家檢票機關從法院那邊拿到了監聽票去監聽這個名單會外流非常可怕"},{"start":660.976,"end":687.81,"text":"如果是境外敵對勢力所掌握的那就更可怕我所知道我目前在討論這個問題的時候分兩個層次第一個如果這些名單是假的如果這些名單全部都假的我們就比較不用那麼擔心因為這是典型的什麼認知作戰嘛拿假的東西跟大家說這個是真的但如果這個是真的問題就嚴重了"},{"start":689.089,"end":704.242,"text":"問題就嚴重了為什麼這些被監聽的名單竟然會在網路上面流傳名單怎麼外洩的這絕對不是發一個新聞稿說這個是認知作戰就可以解決的現在問題來了"},{"start":705.899,"end":705.919,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d90d97ca87cad88af17edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac7be90c14cbbb16b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:31:53 - 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10:31:27","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":683,"end_time":"2024-05-09T10:31:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T10:20:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時20分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：有請秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長好，我想今天大家都非常關心司法院裁定下來所造成的整個衝擊，甚至我們召委說這真的是一個災難。我想最高法院108年台抗大字第897號所造成的整個影響真的叫做茲事體大。首先我們看新收案件到112年高達193萬件，也就是將近的200萬件，所以我首先請問秘書長，到底各地的民事執行處尤其是士林跟臺北地方法院執行處，新收這200萬個案件如何來消化？司法院如何來因應這麼大的案件量？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為突然增加這麼多，我們一定要緊急應變。"],["林委員思銘：所以同仁的健康權你要怎麼保障？我們前一陣子才一直在關心這些同仁的身心健康保障，結果因為這一個裁定，新收案件突然爆增這麼多，剛剛召委講，司法院你要趕快做出相關的行政指導、做出相關的指引，有沒有在做？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們一定會儘速積極來面對。"],["林委員思銘：你發覺問題了嘛，大家都發覺這個問題了嘛，到底要怎麼做？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是像臺北地院那邊，我們就緊急新增7個執行股，書記官增加7人、執達員7人、司法事務官5人，包括委外人力也增加了17人，相關辦公室也都趕快增設。"],["林委員思銘：所以增加這麼多人力，就是要去處理這方面的案件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：一定要克服啊。"],["林委員思銘：所以，秘書長，這當然是治標，但是如何治本？我先來就教一下，秘書長，這個裁定：「執行法院於必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約。」何謂「必要時」？秘書長！我想你本人也當過我們的司法官，德高望重，何謂「必要時」？這麼不確定的法律概念，我們大法庭這些法官在他的裁定裡面講「必要時」，何謂「必要時」？我真的搞不懂何謂「必要時」。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以實務上的運作一定要情法理兼顧，合乎時宜來面對。"],["林委員思銘：所以就把這個「必要時」的認定交給我們民事執行處的法官、書記官及相關人員，是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以目前必要的一些因應這樣一個可以說是「重災區」的作為，司法院一定要趕快，今天也很感謝有這樣一個專題報告，相關機關都有出列席，我們也會儘速來協助。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，我看那個裁定的意旨，好像論理言之鑿鑿，好像很有理由，說「應依公平合理之原則，兼顧債權人、債務人及其他利害關係人權益，以適當之方法為之，不得逾越達成執行目的之必要限度，並宜先賦與債權人、債務人或利害關係人陳述意見之機會」，秘書長，我想我們都曾經在實務上打滾過啦，我們的執行處有這個量能叫債權人、債務人來說：「你們兩個談談看，你們陳述一下你們的意見。」我們在實務上真的有這個量能去做嗎？這些大法庭的法官們，把這樣一個裁定意旨寫一寫，說這樣就是必要性原則，叫我們的民事執行處法官要去參酌，你們在執行的時候要去考量這些因子，你覺得有可能嗎？請問秘書長，以您的實務經驗，我們這些民事執行處的人員有辦法實質去認定這符不符合必要性嗎？聽聽兩造的解釋就可以認定，然後有可能每一個案子都叫兩造來問嗎？有這個量能嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以在司法行政我們能著力的，一定會來處理啦。"],["林委員思銘：很困難嘛，所以對這個裁定，我想很多人都有意見啦，只是因為一個裁定造成這麼大的一個災難，三輸啦！剛才莊瑞雄委員也講這造成三輸。我也看到金管會的報告中寫到，實務執行面所面臨的問題為健康險還有傷害保險被執行影響的基本保障，所以前開民事大法庭的裁定主要是針對人壽保險契約的解約金為之，唯實務上、執行上已擴及健康保險及傷害保險，所以我想請問秘書長，現在我們司法實務上對於這種已擴及的健康保險及傷害保險，我們要如何補救？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們民事廳也有……"],["林委員思銘：好，請廳長。"],["周廳長玫芳：謝謝委員，關於這個壽險契約，我們在強制執行的時候會先去確認它到底是投資型或是純粹的壽險，還是有附加其他的保險，我們會審酌。因為我們的標準，剛剛委員有指教，如果從強制執行法第一條跟第一百二十二條來看，看似不是一個明確的準則，但事實上、在實務運作上一般來說沒有其他的問題，司法事務官的專業能力也毋庸置疑，所以在審酌上沒有問題，那我們還透過很多的程序來達到平衡利害關係人……"],["林委員思銘：是，廳長，我打斷你一下，因為現在裁定是針對人壽險這個標的，但是現在我看金管會說這個有擴大到傷害險及健康險，所以傷害險及健康險的保單也可以作為執行標的喔？"],["周廳長玫芳：不是這樣子的，就是台抗大第897號裁定只針對壽險，沒有……"],["林委員思銘：沒有針對傷害險及健康險。"],["周廳長玫芳：和醫療險，它沒有做裁定，就是它的裁定是有限制的。"],["林委員思銘：好，您現在講沒有嘛。","我請金管會保險局施局長，我看你在報告裡面寫到，這個會擴大到傷害險及健康保險的保單，這部分剛才司法院跟我講不會，但你說會擴及。"],["施局長瓊華：實務上我們確實有聽到業者的反映，確實有一些健康險被強制執行，因為健康險有一年期的跟長期的保單。"],["林委員思銘：是，尤其是癌症險，癌症的保單非常重要，但是癌症的保單也被作為強制執行的標的。司法院，你看你們兩個說法不一樣欸！"],["周廳長玫芳：對不起，這可能是因為他在主約有綁約定，使得主約終止以後……"],["林委員思銘：附約就一起被終止。"],["周廳長玫芳：對。"],["林委員思銘：如果是單純的、不是人壽險的附約，這部分執行法院可以去執行嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：其實這一個部分，我們通常不會這樣做，因為法院在考量的時候，我們針對……"],["林委員思銘：廳長，您講不會，其實我可以告訴你，執行處真的沒有這個量能去做判斷，只要人家去執行，他馬上就給他查封了，馬上就給他終止了啦！"],["周廳長玫芳：健康險和醫療險通常都不會有所謂的解約金，所以……"],["林委員思銘：今天您這樣講，我希望您責成各地方法院的民事執行處，未來對於這種不是附約的健康險還有傷害保險，不能作為執行的標的啦，要定出很明確的指引。","最後我再問一下，我最近也接到一個陳情案件，就是保險要保人是父親，被保險人是其配偶跟子女，繳了二十幾年的保單，爸爸辛辛苦苦工作為他的子女保了一個人壽保險，還沒有到期，但是今天突然間就被解約，這個爸爸哭著跟我講，他說這個是他為子女買的一個保障，結果現在被你們終止了，他的孩子就失去保障了，他的老婆也是，未來萬一發生什麼事情，完全失去我們保險的一個保障，這讓他情何以堪哪！哭著跟我講。所以我在講，一個裁定造成社會這麼大的影響。因此對於要保人跟被保險人不同的這種保單，未來是不是可以思考，就是這種保單我們在執行上面要特別地注意，可不可以把它排除啦？我這樣講好了，要保人跟被保險人不一樣的話，可不可以排除，就是可以不被執行？可不可以？這種類型的，請保險局，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：這個部分可能要看看大家的共識，確實契約非常地複雜……"],["林委員思銘：是啊！保險種類非常多。"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以這個我就提出來，你就講了……這就造成人間悲劇啊！"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員思銘：萬一他的太太真的得到癌症，這個保障又沒了啊！怎麼辦？"],["施局長瓊華：我們會跟公會討論一下細節。"],["林委員思銘：很多很多種保單的類型都不一樣。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員思銘：另外您講到附約，延續附約的這些相關議題也是一樣，未來假設附約要延續，那他的保費要不要增加？"],["施局長瓊華：不用。"],["林委員思銘：都不用嘛？"],["施局長瓊華：嗯，照他原來的……"],["林委員思銘：是，我想相關的指引真的要趕快訂出來。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長、局長。接下來請黃委員國昌質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","羅智強","李坤城","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","傅崐萁","翁曉玲"],"page_start":65,"meetingDate":["2024-05-09"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債\n未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案","agenda_id":"1134301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.79784375,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.33034375,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.69596875,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.93596875,"end":51.195968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.78659375,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.38909375,"end":62.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.126593750000005,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.53096875,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.47159375000001,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.12534375,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.59909375000001,"end":98.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.22659375,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.50909375,"end":107.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.24284375,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.29659375000001,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.46034375,"end":114.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.44284375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.29409375,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.17096875000001,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.07284375,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.85471875000002,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.00971875000002,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.22034375,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.42659375000002,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.50659375,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.99471875,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.85096875000002,"end":187.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.06096875,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.39284375000003,"end":197.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.60346875000002,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.00409375,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.42971875,"end":202.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.12034375000002,"end":216.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.30534375000002,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.26721875,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.47846875000002,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.23284375000003,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.83034375,"end":262.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.19221875,"end":281.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.38346875,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.76159375000003,"end":296.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.27159375,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.86971875,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.95409375,"end":302.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.98784375,"end":303.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.19034375,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.20721875000004,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.24096875000004,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.30784375,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.97409375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.03096875,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.81909375000004,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.37534375,"end":364.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.29471875,"end":365.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.56034375,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.57721875000004,"end":365.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","star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秘書長這個當然是一個治標啦但是如何治本如何治本其實我先來救教秘書長一下喔秘書長我想這個裁定啦講說執行法願於必要時得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人的人壽保險契約何謂必要時啊"},{"start":158.775,"end":177.503,"text":"副處長,我想你本人也當過我們的司法官得高望重何謂必要時,這麼不確定的法律概念我們的大法庭的這些法官在他的一個裁定裡面講必要時何謂必要時,我真的搞不懂,何謂必要時"},{"start":179.918,"end":184.8,"text":"所以把這個必要時的認定就交給我們民事執行處的法官、書記官以及相關的人員是不是?"},{"start":195.484,"end":208.12,"text":"所以必要的一些有一些目前應驗這樣的一個重災可以說是重災區司法院一定要趕快今天也也很感謝有這樣一個專題我們相關的"},{"start":211.084,"end":241.084,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":241.544,"end":249.608,"text":"因為我想我們都在實務上曾經打滾過了我們的執行處有這個量能叫債權人、債務人來講說你們兩個談談看你們扯出一下你們的意見我們能去這個真的在實務上有這個量能去做嗎"},{"start":264.229,"end":281.325,"text":"大法這些大法庭的法官們你把這樣的一個裁定意旨說你寫一寫說這樣就是必要性的一個原則叫我們的民事執行處的法官你們要去參酌你們要在這個執行的時候要去考量這些因子你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":282.466,"end":299.296,"text":"只問移民的實務經驗我們這些民事支援處的人員有辦法實質去認定說這符不符合必要性啊聽聽兩兆的解釋就可以去認定然後有可能叫兩兆每一個案子都叫兩兆來問嗎有這個量能嗎"},{"start":303.438,"end":322.464,"text":"所以在司法行政我們能著力的一定會很困難嘛就因為我對這個裁定我想很多人都有意見只是因為一個裁定造成這麼大的一個災難三書啦剛才我們莊惠雄也講造成三書啦"},{"start":324.093,"end":350.061,"text":"那我也看到這個金管會的一個報告報告中寫到說我們實務執行面所面臨的問題為健康險還有我們的傷害保險被執行影響的基本保障所以前開民事大法庭的裁定主要是針對人壽保險契約的解約金為之為實務上執行上已擴及健康保險及傷害保險"},{"start":351.121,"end":364.343,"text":"所以我想請問民主黨現在是我們司法實務上對於這種這個以擴及的健康保險及傷害保險我們要如何補救這一部分我們民視聽也有相當的好請聽長"},{"start":366.953,"end":380.782,"text":"謝謝委員那關於這個受險契約我們在強制執行的時候會先去確認他到底是投資型或者是純粹的受險或者有附加其他的保險我們會審酌那因為我們的標準"},{"start":384.724,"end":408.575,"text":"剛剛委員有指教如果從強制執行法第一條跟強制執行法122條看似不是一個明確的準則但事實上在實務運作上普通是沒有其他的問題司法事務官的專業能力也無庸置疑所以在審酌上沒有問題那我們還透過很多的程序來達到"},{"start":410.576,"end":427.982,"text":"所以聽一下我打斷你一下就是說因為現在裁定是針對人壽險這個標的嘛但是現在我看監管會講說這個有擴大到傷害險以及健康險所以他這個對傷害的傷害險及健康險的保單也可以作為執行標的喔"},{"start":429.459,"end":453.336,"text":"不是這樣子的,就是說我們的臺康大的這個897號裁定,它只針對受險,其實它沒有針對傷害跟醫療險這些,它沒有做裁定,是,我們的,就是說它的裁定是有限制的。您現在講沒有嘛,那個,局長,我請今晚回號,管理局我們司局長。"},{"start":458.14,"end":487.219,"text":"市長,我看你的報告裡面寫說這個會擴大到我們的傷害險以及健康保險的保單這部分,因為剛才司法院跟我講不會啊你寫說會擴及啊市長,我們確實有聽到業者的反應確實有一些健康險有被強制執行所以我們的健康險裡面有一年期的跟長期的保單是,尤其是癌症險嘛,我想剛才稍微講說尤其是癌症的保單"},{"start":488.44,"end":513.399,"text":"這個非常重要啊但是你癌症的保單也作為強制執行的標的這個司法院你看你們兩個說法不一樣欸對不起這可能是因為他在主約有綁約定所以使得主約終止以後復約復約就一起被終止那如果是單純的這個不是人受險的復約這部分執行法院可以去執行他嗎"},{"start":514.599,"end":542.313,"text":"其實這個部分我們通常不會這樣做因為其實法院在考量的時候我們真的強制執行其實那個 廷長您講不會啦其實我可以告訴你執行處真的沒有這個量能去做判斷只要人家去執行他就馬上就給他查封了啦就馬上就給他終止了啦健康險跟這種醫療險通常都不會有所謂的解約金今天您這樣講我希望您責成真的喔未來各地方法院的民事執行處"},{"start":543.567,"end":572.987,"text":"對於這種不是赴約的健康險還有傷害保險不能給他去做這個作為執行的標的要訂出很明確的指引再來最後我再問一下我最近也接到一個陳情案件就是說保險邀保人是他父親被保險人是配偶跟子女繳了20幾年的保單爸爸辛辛苦苦工作為他的子女保了一個人壽保險還沒有到期"},{"start":573.647,"end":595.713,"text":"但是今天突然間就被解約啊這個爸爸哭著跟我講他說這個是我為子女的一個保障耶結果現在就被你們終止了我的孩子就沒有保障失去保障了我的老婆也是未來萬一發生什麼事情啊完全失去我們保險的一個保障"},{"start":597.18,"end":605.271,"text":"這讓他情何以堪啊?哭著跟我講啊!所以我會講說一個裁定造成這麼大的社會的一個影響"},{"start":606.778,"end":631.244,"text":"所以對於這種邀保人跟被保險人不同的這種保單未來是不是可以去思考就是說這種保單我們在執行上面要特別的去注意可不可以把它排除我這樣講好了邀保人跟被保險人不一樣的話可不可以排除就是可以不被執行可不可以"},{"start":633.694,"end":655.572,"text":"這種類型的那請那個保安局啊這個部分可能要看看大家的共識啊確實契約非常的複雜是啊所以你保險種類非常多啊所以這個我就提出來你就講這個就造成人間悲劇啊萬一他的太太真的得到癌症啊這保障又沒了啊"},{"start":656.547,"end":656.587,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d80ed1a0bd5424c7d17edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac7047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:24:14 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謝謝謝謝主席還有今天在場的我們本會的委員還有來自民間的各位專家學者代表大家今天在場都是非常的關心我們《青年基本法》的草案以及我們台灣這個國家對青年我們究竟要具有什麼樣的定位那我們的政府要提供怎麼樣的支持那首先我是非常的高興"},{"start":29,"end":32.303,"text":"這一次的討論裡面我們有來自於不同政黨的這個草案的提案因為有記得在2016年我們行政院首先要創設青年諮詢委員會的時候其實當時呢也是有受到在野黨的反對當時的反對理由是說呢認為這個為什麼還要設一個新的機關呢甚至說這個叫做黑機關然後說讓這些人來擔任親資委員"},{"start":54.7,"end":58.881,"text":"是讓他們來混名聲的認為說本來行政院就有政務委員可以做跨部會的協調了為什麼要創設新的機關那感謝也來自於社會各界的支持其實這些年來我們行政院親資委員會的運作其實讓我們看到了確實也許大家對於新的還沒有發生的事情會恐懼會害怕因為你不知道它是什麼但是當你看到它實際上的運作裡我們真的確實像這幾年來"},{"start":80.126,"end":80.166,"text":"公聽會：吳沛憶"},{"start":100.803,"end":100.843,"text":"公聽會：吳沛憶"},{"start":122.108,"end":122.128,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":149.71,"end":149.73,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":165.757,"end":165.777,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":186.832,"end":214.743,"text":"我舉一個例子來說因為我們是教育委員會所以我們在監督的是包括教育部跟文化部前陣子我們在討論一個議題是臺灣的獨立書店正在凋零那文化部有相關的計畫是希望讓支持這個獨立書店可以進到社區裡面如果社區來提案有一個微型的這個行動計畫那能夠來文化部可以來予以補助讓這個社區的資源能夠一起來支持這一家獨立書店"},{"start":215.503,"end":215.523,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":233.238,"end":261.878,"text":"但是倘若我們完全只以一個機關的本位來思考這樣的政策時常就會忽略掉了青年的視野而忽略到青年的視野其實是我們的損失不只是要照顧青年的權益從青年的視角出發時常可以給我們在公共的政策上面一個新的視角讓我們可以有更多的這個觸角進入到這個社會裡面所以我覺得這一點是非常重要的就是我們講的青年的主流化"},{"start":262.618,"end":262.638,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":288.94,"end":288.96,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":318.8,"end":319.04,"text":"吳沛憶教育及文化委員"},{"start":343.993,"end":347.836,"text":"但是現在我們要把這些關於青年的業務散在各個局處裡面把它通通抽出來但是要有邏輯的然後要有行政這個原則的去把它重新的編制然後放置在青年局裡面這個其實在討論的過程"},{"start":362.009,"end":362.029,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":380.743,"end":380.763,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":397.731,"end":399.372,"text":"吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員吳沛憶委員"},{"start":426.041,"end":426.061,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d0f8eb59b17fcab1817edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac7f91eb0f286b10d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"10:20:38 - 10:24:07","影片長度":"00:03:29","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T10:20:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-09T10:24:07+08:00","duration":209,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":1.9715937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.40096875,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.73284375,"end":27.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.874718750000003,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.962843750000005,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.37034375,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.75659375000001,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.25971875,"end":128.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.51284375,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.45534375,"end":205.50096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.929,"text":"主席各位專家學者大家好我今天代表臺灣民眾黨提出兩點主張第一點我們支持青年基本法應該盡速立法全面提升青年的權益及發展"},{"start":27.97,"end":56.031,"text":"青年是社會的重要組成部分擁有自己的權益和需求制定青年基本法可以明確規定青年的基本權利例如教育權、就業權、參政權等並且加強對這些權益的保障從而促進青年的健康成長和全面的發展基本法可以從多元面向來完成青年族群的權益"},{"start":58.616,"end":80.434,"text":"第一點是促進青年的發展青年是國家的未來和希望他們的成長和發展對國家的長遠發展至關重要制定青年基本法可以為青年提供更好的教育就業參與公共事務和成長的機會進而促進青年的個人發展和社會貢獻"},{"start":81.835,"end":82.295,"text":"公聽會：吳春城公聽會：吳春城"},{"start":102.344,"end":128.251,"text":"透過《青年基本法》是為了保障青年的權益促進青年的發展進而促進社會的穩定和持續的發展確實有其立法的必要也希望行政院能夠儘速地提出相關的草案凝聚各界的共識讓立法院可以就實體的內容進行審查早日完成《青年基本法》的立法工程第二點表達的是"},{"start":129.625,"end":145.455,"text":"基本法是引導國家政策方向和相關法令的制定基本方針和原則,透過制定專法落實權益的保障,並確保國家對於正確的政策不會因為人去政息。"},{"start":146.616,"end":173.427,"text":"基本法是引導國家政策方向及相關法令的制定基本方針及原則是國家看待及推動族群議題應該遵循的指標及義務因此今天為什麼我們需要透過立法的方式來達成也是希望能夠透過基本法的制定能夠讓政策可以不會因為執政者的考量而有所更迭另外我們也認為"},{"start":174.747,"end":201.642,"text":"在兩件事情上面未來無論是什麼樣的基本法都應該要納入第一是政策的白皮書並建立檢討修正的機制讓政策能夠與時俱進第二點建立中央的專責單位統籌協調各部會的任務及跨部會的分工讓基本法的原則能夠被各個部會遵循"},{"start":202.363,"end":205.293,"text":"並且有效的互相協作 以上"}]}},{"id":"152365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792dc799e836ca502f3ab4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7d542c67c48412d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:08:37 - 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不是我在意的不是法院的重大負擔我在意的是這些保護這些老百姓他有很多保險契約有很多付款欸你們想到的是說噢造成法院好多的負擔我想到的是這些老百姓怎麼辦因為我們這些說司法獨立審判的法官造出做出來這樣不同的見解假設我今天"},{"start":220.56,"end":223.624,"text":"中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管"},{"start":225.845,"end":230.869,"text":"我選擇你自己就強制執行啊你說哇!莊瑞雄有一張保單在那個地方你給他申請強制執行啊那以現在2016年台灣高等法院司講說不行莊瑞雄那個地方有一身專屬性總裁變成在那裡捉啊他受討厭他又站到了你知道嗎那你現在把它終止掉的話現在不是只有變成說把它當成是我的責任財產的一部分那就可以強制執行囉"},{"start":252.046,"end":274.581,"text":"那強制執行以後就按照強制執行法第1條第2項裡面說你這哪有公平就會損失一道相關關係人、受益人也是啊是是還不止咧還不止咧我這一張保險單裡面我還有好多付款啊包括我的傷害保險啊健康保險啊全部都沒有了我不相信只有台灣會碰到這種狀況全世界各國都有保險商品啊"},{"start":279.158,"end":279.458,"text":"我們才有辦法定一個"},{"start":309.322,"end":315.548,"text":"責任準備金是說我的保護我要保人或者說我被保險人我一直繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳繳"},{"start":330.458,"end":341.183,"text":"也是我們台灣高等法院也是我們司法界的賢敗做出來的我覺得那是合理的啊那你現在把最高法院的那個大法庭把它給弄一個裁定出來以後這樣對不對把它解約掉解約金我繳100萬繳起來才剩40萬三輸啦法院你們也輸啦你們很忙啦又累啦"},{"start":354.363,"end":358.684,"text":"感謝委員的提示這個非常重要政府本來就應該要實務就是要合乎時宜要情話裡兼顧"},{"start":383.01,"end":405.109,"text":"那我們跟今天我們相關這個初類型的機關我們要協力啦一定要協力大家協調喔司法院會來盡力來協調大法庭裏面的裁定裏面我去看到他的危言大義到有一個地方他指出一條明路啦他去講到說"},{"start":407.304,"end":426.817,"text":"目前我們沒有強制執行程序裏面採取像德國、歐盟那樣的介入權那我的像比如說相關的利害關係人我就可以來介入啦總部下面認為說欸我是受益人捏捷軍客只剩四十萬他才要賣他可以來介入他說來啊我來帶腳啊這是一個方式啊那我們的條文裏面拜託欸這個局長你很努力啦"},{"start":435.717,"end":463.957,"text":"各國的法制這個部分可以去完備我們這些受益人或者被保險人整個體制要讓他完備阿阿不然你像這個問題你要怎麼解管你說瑞士你說德國奧地利日本他們有這樣的一個立法力強制執行程序裡面就可以有第三人相關相當的關係人他可以去做一個介入那我們應該也要往這樣的一個方向去這個是最高法院的裁定裡面有去講到這個啦"},{"start":464.918,"end":477.552,"text":"那我相信啊,既然有去講到,你總不能只有把2016年你法院自己做出來的一個座談會的一個決議要法官來遵守,然後讓整個社會太平,那你後面又做出一個裁定,讓社會天下大亂。"},{"start":480.406,"end":507.707,"text":"請秘書長你的看法這個我們一定要積極面對啦一定要積極面對來克服我們相關的機關說法院一定會盡量來協調來積極面對強制執行只有一個概念這個責任財產裡面你雖然透過法院要保上當事人債權人的權利可是這個執行程序裡面我們第一條就揭示公平合理跟最小侵害原則"},{"start":509.045,"end":509.505,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":525.939,"end":537.527,"text":"我會覺得啊司法院這邊責無旁貸保險局家也責無旁貸這已經太久了勒羅總經理剛才總委人家講你講20幾萬件齁都講幾件我們便宜中心目前只收到11件這樣啊幾十件你怎麼處理因為這個不是你只說我們沒那麼多對不對我們這個不符合我們這個金融消費者法規是當然嘛所以你只說沒那麼多嘛"},{"start":553.837,"end":556.498,"text":"對,就是那個是查詢跟執行的到所協工會還有受益人你沒有放進去啊整個保險的相關關係人你沒有放進去啦不然這個數目更大囉"},{"start":580.243,"end":589.851,"text":"我特別提醒就是說在我們保險實務上常見的受險我們保單裡面你除了這些組約以外你常常會有一些意外傷害還有實質我們整個醫療險或者長期的一個照顧險的這些覆約局長你應該很清楚你把這個終止整個保險保單然後取回解約金分配給債權人然後保險的付款全部都終止掉"},{"start":610.835,"end":629.537,"text":"當初大家在說人身保險我們託的錢都被託了,你怎麼看?是,所以我們才會要求保險公司有一個覆約延續條款,不能終止他的覆約可是問題是說覆約終止條款,你現在如果按照大法庭的一個見解的話"},{"start":630.418,"end":630.938,"text":"所以我們加速好不好,秘書長跟局長"},{"start":655.289,"end":676.942,"text":"謝謝我們一定會跟相關機關一起來來積極來面對這個問題的司法院會來協調不是不是只有什麼一個月交報告啦要加速修法啦國外的立法制德國可以參考澳國可以參考連奧地利可以參考日本也可以參考啊他們都有介入權的一個規定啊好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝好謝謝民主黨局長總經理"}]}},{"id":"152364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d7ddb511db33b434017edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac799bb5a3cc09873825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:06:12 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10:13:00","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T10:06:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-09T10:13:00+08:00","duration":408,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.36534375,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.16596875,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.86471875000001,"end":267.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.07346875,"end":407.00534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.229,"text":"陳菁徽議員"},{"start":21.165,"end":41.398,"text":"對我的專業而言我會在這個青年基本法裡面表達我的想法主要是關於我輔導過非常多的不同性傾向的青年而且協助他們比如說生育的問題或者是性別友善門診等等的所以多元共榮是確實的落實在我的政策提案以及日常生活中"},{"start":42.239,"end":64.254,"text":"在者呢,我有發現全球青少年以及青年的憂鬱症自殺率是以很快的速度節節升高對比我們其他年齡的族群因此我也非常關心我們的心理健康最後呢,我會提到我們希望青年在所有的政策以及政策主體裡面主流化"},{"start":65.795,"end":88.049,"text":"為什麼對青年有這麼多想法是因為我除了是醫師是立法委員也是一個三寶媽所以我非常非常關心年輕人長大後的未來同時我也曾經年輕過所以在過去讀書升學工作日子的經歷我甚至有許許多多的擔憂還有在生命時期不同時期會面對到的困境"},{"start":88.809,"end":117.354,"text":"所以今天我會一一的表達我對青年基本法的一些想法首先剛提到我最重視的是心理健康因為我知道在這個時代呢沒有時間也沒有地域限制的人際關係其實會引起非常大的困擾我自己的小孩就曾經對我說他們在玩線上遊戲的時候是看到互相排擠等等網路霸凌的情形那我也在旁邊協助他們可以快速的茁壯自己的心靈"},{"start":118.274,"end":118.314,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":135.481,"end":164.35,"text":"前陣子學生輔導法的公聽會時我就已經曾經特別呼籲要重視青年世代的心理健康問題我們看到這些抗憂鬱的藥物使用人數是逐年以10萬的急劇在上升年輕族群在衛福部提供的自殺防治安心專線的使用上光是憂鬱傾向還有他的人際關係家庭困擾就佔了七成可見呢我國國人的心理健康需要政府"},{"start":164.65,"end":164.69,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":184.651,"end":207.896,"text":"在先前學生輔導法的公聽會我就有討論到光是我們學校端所提供的情緒教育資商服務等等的沒有辦法給青年世代相對應的心理支持更沒有養成我們對於情緒生命的應變能力所以出了社會之後青年們面對的是更大的挑戰是學習與工作階段的轉換生活模式的改變"},{"start":210.356,"end":210.476,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":233.943,"end":254.571,"text":"個人非常重視的是青年基本法裡面一定要訂定政府對青年的心理健康照護明確的列為優先照護事項除此以外更要從其他生活的面向一起努力比如大家常常提及的落實居住正義不要負擔如此沉重的房價還有就學上應該如何適性學習後續應該要如何接軌就業等等"},{"start":258.413,"end":258.953,"text":"公聽委員：陳菁徽"},{"start":283.686,"end":304.377,"text":"反過來說青年主流化也是如此所以目前政府的任何政策都關乎未來而青年就代表了未來所以政策與青年息息相關我們未來的政策也理當要有足夠的青年代表才能確保要從你們的視角去落實達成青年主流化"},{"start":305.157,"end":317.206,"text":"但有一點令我擔心的是在這個新政府即將就任的時候之前呢他曾經承諾三分之一的女性內閣首長比例至今我們遲遲還沒看到有實現這也是當初性別主流化沒有強制難以落實的問題"},{"start":323.57,"end":323.61,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":344.517,"end":372.396,"text":"光是看到青年基本法草案聯合國發展權宣言就可以看到我們的照顧的面向是多元複雜的我們希望政府從各個方面都可以照顧到這個需求如果就單一主責機關負責是很難以檢視協助青年政策方面全方位施政的所以我希望未來可以透過青年主責要落實政府的施政才能看到需求照顧我們國家的未來"},{"start":373.357,"end":373.517,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":389.292,"end":389.512,"text":"陳菁徽"}]}},{"id":"152363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792da5112455704fafcfb4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7ff736705a4ade47f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:54:45 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10:08:16","影片長度":"00:13:31","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":811,"end_time":"2024-05-09T10:08:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T09:54:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時54分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請司法院吳秘書長、法務部黃署長以及金管會施局長。"],["主席：請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有財團法人金融消費評議中心羅主委兼總經理。"],["主席：羅主委。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好、四位好。我想四位看起來都是慈眉善目，我很難得一開始在簡報之前講兩個真實的案例給大家聽一下。姑且稱之為張先生跟李太太，張先生年輕時做業務，中年投資失利，現在到了快退休的年紀，為債務所苦，常常跑法院，還好他年輕的時候兼差做過保險，幫自己存很多保單，但是大概是健康險、癌症險、壽險，儲蓄型當然就被強制執行、解約，他也就知道了。但是他現在發現早期的癌症，他的保單開始對他產生效果，結果保險公司理賠的金額被強制執行、查扣了，但他想說後續還有很多，所以他還借錢繼續繳保費。","第二個是李太太，先生早年沒有照顧家庭，都是他一個人操持帶小孩，他真的節儉到幫孩子買一些保單，但是因為先生在外面欠債，過世之後，人家告訴他要拋棄繼承，但是後來才發現他在不知情的情況下幫先生做連帶保證人，結果這個不良債權被資產公司拿去了，開始來追債，他自己的保單沒了，幫孩子買的保單也沒了，為什麼要講這兩個案例呢？因為今天這樣的一個質詢，我們立法院有直播，我的臉書也直播，有兩個廣播電臺的主持人，他們得到很多類似的案例，在我開記者會之後，大家跟他們求助，我說你們來看看今天在立法院的相關機關、民意代表怎麼幫這些數十萬潛在的受害人解決。我們目前的強制執行保單解約未符比例原則，就是殺雞取卵，是不是這樣子？秘書長，你殺了一隻雞，他的保單受益權那麼大，只取到一個解約金，你認不認同這句話？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就還是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：殺雞取卵嘛！但是苦了誰？不是苦了要保人、債務人，苦了法院，是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：21家保險公司其中2家在士林分院，19家在臺北分院，他們的案件量現在已經有三萬多件，對不對？被查詢的保單還有23萬件，是不是這樣子？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這23萬件被債權人查詢的保單，謝謝保險局做得很好啊！人家可以查到我的債務人有多少保單，結果法院等於是殺雞取卵，殺雞也殺到手軟啦！可是誰受益？施局長，你覺得誰獲益？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，其實大家都是受害者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實債權人經過拍賣之後，他多少拿回一點啦！但是保險公司在某種程度上，無形中免除了後面這些保單，這都是後續將要開始執行理賠的保單，它就解除啦！它只拿出一些解約金，後面通通沒了。雞殺死之後，飼料大廠也很高興，因為養雞場的雞殺光光，雞蛋被人家抵債，結果我不用供應飼料也很開心，所以大法庭在2022年12月9號做成這個裁定。我們往下看，剛剛講的執行保單案例，他欠23萬，每年被收20%的高利，還債跟不上滾利，還要被扣保單。再往下看，我們看到強制執行已經發出8,100件，已經核發扣押命令、執行解約的八千多件，在扣押的3萬4,000件，聲請查詢的23萬件。理賠中的保單，也會被強制執行嗎？請問保險局，剛剛說的那個案例，他的健康險、癌症險理賠了，為什麼這個保戶還要繼續繳保費？"],["施局長瓊華：因為醫療險、健康險的部分有延續性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，因為他早年買的保費比較低，他持續繳這個保單，但原本拿到的給付被扣了，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黃署長，我們繳納保險的目的是為了醫療保障，你認為在那個案例的情況之下，他不會因為欠錢、薪水被扣就不去上班，還是努力的工作，為什麼？因為我工作賺的錢只有三分之一會抵債嘛！是不是？如果我早年買的保單，現在統統拿去賠、去付給這個債務人，那你說我這個保戶這樣公不公平？你覺得應不應該？"],["黃署長玉垣：我認為他真的滿可憐的啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有辦法？可不可以有什麼救濟？"],["黃署長玉垣：法院的部分，我可能不方便……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，秘書長，你認為法院要怎麼幫他？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為法院當然還是回到儘量要符合比例原則。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，這些案件我們看到潛在的有23萬件，法官個案裁量，累都累死了。我們看看，不論保單解約金多寡，一律強制執行，如果債務人他欠款是20萬，或者解約金額只有1萬塊，請問執行署，這種保障型的保單解約金少，而債務人為此失去了健康保險，有沒有符合比例原則？"],["黃署長玉垣：這就是我們目前開了幾次會，都儘可能的針對這部分用行政指導的方式，各分署對這部分會考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你們要再進一步講，參考美國各州限定執行的範圍，根據強制執行法第一百二十二條：「為了保障民眾生活，債務人依法領取之社會保險給付不得為強制執行。」有沒有可能比照這個精神，社會保險是維持尊嚴生活所必須的，很多保障型保單也是要做保障損害的填補，是不是可以請司法院會同保險局、執行署，以保單類型、解約金為界，將部分保單排除在執行範圍外？請三位分別答復，保險局可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我們現在已經在做了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那執行署呢？"],["黃署長玉垣：只要保險法有規定，我們就配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。秘書長，那誰來主催？你們來主導，誰來定？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以今天這個專題報告非常有意義，透過這樣，我們一定會傾聽這種聲音……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是誰來定？保險局定？執行署定？還是司法院要定？誰要來定？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們民事廳就這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，民事廳，誰來定？"],["周廳長玫芳：因為有關於保單的強制執行，事實上法院的執行程序只是一個被動程序……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那我還是問你誰來制定？"],["周廳長玫芳：所以這個法如果要制定的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是法，執行的標準、分類標準。"],["周廳長玫芳：執行標準應該在保險法裡面明定到底能不能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們會修法，我是問你哪個單位來定？"],["周廳長玫芳：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：司法院會承諾你們找這兩個單位把這個標準定出來？"],["周廳長玫芳：我們會協助金管會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在推來推去，你們今天如果不講出來，不讓你們下臺，誰要負責？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，保險法的部分我們是會來定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：保險法是沒有錯，我們會來修。"],["施局長瓊華：參考原則的部分，我想我們會找壽險公會來擬出一個參考原則，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，執行作業要點。司法院吳秘書長，你們有沒有一個刑事案件的分類執行作業要點？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員報告，我想政府是一體的，我看我們相關機關大家一起來協調看怎麼處理，這個一定要緊密的協調啦！"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，因為這個部分應該還是要讓執行機關有一個參考原則，我們只能協助……"],["鍾委員佳濱：修法是保險局要處理，目前還沒修法前的執行作業要點，來，我念一個給你聽，我們先看一下這個格式，沒有統一的格式跟流程，公文往返就非常的耗時、耗力，要請壽險公司就個案一一的向法院確認扣押範圍，這是累死大家。所以我剛剛就說要你們來統一格式、流程，來降低執行法院的壓力，有沒有？好，我會後再給你們，因為你們有定了一個刑事案件的執行作業要點，是司法院定的，可不可以參照這個定出一個保單的執行跟解約的分類要點？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我想我們司法院會積極來協調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我請問保險局，壽險主約遭強制執行，附約也一併失效，你們也報告了，那你們要怎麼防止主約被強制執行後，附約的健康險、醫療險都因而失效，你們有一個延約、續約的條款……"],["施局長瓊華：是，附約延續條款。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那怎麼做？現在保險公司怎麼做？"],["施局長瓊華：保險公司現在會主動把附約延續條款就加批上去了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們說有去關懷，提供附約延續條款，我要拜託保險局，保險公司最怕什麼？你們普惠金融的一些評鑑，納入你們普惠金融的檢查項目定期公告，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","所以目前尋求強制執行的保單已經有23萬件，來，評議中心主委兼總經理，目前你們有沒有收到保戶這樣的請求協助，他們認為有爭議，你們有沒有辦法協助他救濟？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：有這樣的案件，但是按照金融消費者保護法規定的話，這個不屬於金融消費爭議，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我知道不是屬於金融，但是一般來講，他們只認得你們，很多保險爭議都是消費者，他說這個有爭議、被解約了，就找你。我要拜託你們一件事，真的是拜託，你們可不可以來幫忙做宣導？宣導什麼？你們要宣導這些保戶，如果遇到因為你是債務人，被強制執行，那我們來協助你，要跟法院、分署去提出異議，你們願意做這樣的宣導嗎？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們評議中心的工作本來就有在做教育宣導……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我要請你幫忙，很清楚的，不管是透過電視臺、廣播電臺、網路，告訴大家這個事情，全臺灣有23萬個潛在的受害者，他們被債務公司查詢，知道他們有保單，要去聲請強制執行了，你們趕快去宣傳可以嗎？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們儘量做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是儘量做，請在一個月內提出你要怎麼做的方法給我。","最後因為時間的關係，請施局長，我有四大要求，第一個，以保單的類型、解約金為界，將部分保單排除在執行範圍內；甚至要執行的部分，也設定理賠金的扣押上限，這個部分請司法院會同保險局、執行署、壽險公會來做，可以嗎？都點頭，我當作你們都答應了喔！第二個，對於保單強制執行統一的格式、流程，訂定一個保單強制執行參考原則，一個月內提出書面報告，誰要提？"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法院會儘量來協調啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是要有人提啊！你們不能三個和尚沒水喝啊！誰要提？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就司法院吳秘書長你來提，一個月內。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們司法院會來處理，因為我們既然是重災區嘛！重災區我們當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！廳長，我覺得這樣，秘書長願意承擔，我們……"],["周廳長玫芳：我們要先把它的壽險種類……因為我……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，我都瞭解，施局長會幫你忙，但是最後誰要送來？"],["周廳長玫芳：全部都一個月，我們沒有辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：施局長，你一個月內給司法院可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：我們可以定參考原則給他們參考，一個月內可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，司法院拿到一個月內把書面報告提出來，可以嗎？這樣可以了吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個當然我們會積極配合，因為我們是重災區嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果保險局在一個月內沒有給你們，整理這些保單商品的類型，責任就算在它；給了你們之後，一個月內把這個書面報告提出來，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們一定會彙整啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一個月喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，因為這個一定要趕快積極處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，保險局，將保險公司對遭強制執行保戶、提供附約延續條款，納入你們對保險公司普惠金融的檢查項目，定期公告，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金融消費評議中心，為了針對弱勢金融消費者，透過電臺、電視、網路，加強宣導保單，你們可不可以一個月內提出一個你們怎麼做的報告給我、給本委員會？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：就是做這種教育宣導，我們提出報告，但是像這種電視、電臺或……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有預算執行？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：我們這個預算可能不是那麼多……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我會幫你們去爭取，但是你們過去都只是被動地接受消費評議，我希望你們要主動地告訴消費者有哪些潛在的風險，可以嗎？"],["羅評議主任委員兼總經理俊瑋：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，保險局，請儘速研議介入權入保險法，並於一個月內提書面研析報告，可以嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：請莊委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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對不對那如果我早年買的保單現在通通拿去賠去付這個債務人那你說我這個保護這樣公不公平應不應該你覺得"},{"start":331.138,"end":331.598,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":346.574,"end":365.975,"text":"發言當然還是要回復我們回到就是還是要盡量要符合比例原則啦是這些案件我們看到潛在的有23萬件法官個案裁量累都累死了我們看看齁如果部分保單的解約金多法律強制執行如果債務人他欠款是20萬那或者說解約金只有1萬塊"},{"start":367.296,"end":382.91,"text":"請問執行署這種保障型的保單解約金少而債務人因為此失去了健康保險有沒有符合比例原則?這就是我們目前開的幾次會我們都盡可能的針對這部分我們用行政指導的方式各分署對這部分會考量"},{"start":383.63,"end":411.523,"text":"所以你們要再進一步講參考美國各州限定執行的範圍根據強制執行法第122條為了保障民眾生活債務人依法領取之社會保險幾乎不得為強制執行有沒有可能秉照這個精神社會保險是維持生活所必須尊嚴的生活很多保障錢保單也是要做保障在損害的填補是不是可以請司法院匯從保險局執行署以保單類型解約金為借將部分保單排除在執行範圍外請三位分別答呼保險局可以嗎"},{"start":413.407,"end":433.485,"text":"發言委員我們現在已經在做了那執行署呢我們只要保險法有規定我們就配合辦理好那秘書秘書長那誰來主催你們再來主導所以今天誰來定今天這個專題報告非常有意義的透過這樣齁這個我們一定會傾聽是誰來定保險局定執行署定還是司法院來定"},{"start":434.708,"end":458.859,"text":"誰要來定因為有關於保單的強制執行事實上法院的執行程序只是一個被動程序所以這個法如果要制定的話執行標準應該在保險法裡面明定到底能不能我們會修法我是問你哪個單位來定"},{"start":462.4,"end":488.812,"text":"司法院委員承諾你們找這兩個單位把這個標準定出來我們會協助金管你們在推來推去你們今天如果不講出來不讓你們下台誰要負責?包委員保險法的部分我們是會來定那參考原則的部分我想我們會來找壽險公會來擬出一個參考原則執行作業要點司法院委員副秘書長你們有沒有一個刑事案件的分類執行作業要點?"},{"start":493.057,"end":502.246,"text":"我想政府是一體的啦這個我看我們相關機關大家一起來協調看怎麼處理啦這個一定要緊密的來協調啦緊密協調啦"},{"start":505.12,"end":532.024,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分是應該還是要讓執行機關有一個參考原則修法是保險局要處理目前還沒修法前的執行作業要點來我念一個案子給你聽我們先看一下這個格式沒有統一的格式跟流程公務員就非常的耗時耗力要請臭險公司就個案一一的向法院確認扣押範圍這是累死大家所以我剛剛就說要你們來統一格式流程來降低執行法院的壓力有沒有"},{"start":533.957,"end":545.389,"text":"我會後再給你們因為你們有訂了一個刑事案件的執行的一個作業要點是司法院訂的可不可以參照這個訂出一個保單的一個執行跟解約的分類要點這個我想我們說好會積極來協調會積極來協調"},{"start":550.394,"end":553.396,"text":"保險公司現在會主動把它復約延續條款就加批上去了"},{"start":575.973,"end":590.751,"text":"好,你們說有去關懷啦提供副業延續條款我要拜託保險局保險公司最怕什麼?你們普惠金融的一些評鑑納入你們普惠金融的檢查項目定期公告可以嗎?可以可以,好謝謝,下一頁"},{"start":592.052,"end":615.354,"text":"所以目前尋求的保單呢,強制的已經有23萬件喔來,評議中心,來,主委兼總經理目前你們有沒有受到保護這樣的一個請求,說啊協助他們認為有救濟,有爭議,你們有沒有辦法協助他救濟有這樣的案件有這樣的案件對,但是按照金融消費者保護法規定的話這個不屬於這個金融消費爭議,所以呢是的,我知道不是屬於金融,但是一般來講他們只認得你們"},{"start":617.042,"end":637.69,"text":"很多保險爭議的都是消費者,他說啊這個有爭議他會被解約他找你,我知道要拜託你們一件,正式拜託,你們可不可以來幫忙做宣導,宣導什麼?因為你們要宣導這些保護啊,說如果你們遇到的這個因為你是債務人被強制執行,那我們來協助你,要去跟法院跟分署去執行異議,你們願意做這樣的宣導嗎?"},{"start":639.581,"end":665.444,"text":"我們評議中心的工作本來就有在做教育訓練好那我要請你幫忙很清楚的不管是透過電視台、廣播電台、網路告訴這個事情全台灣有23萬個潛在的受害者他們即將他們被債務權公司查詢了知道他們有保單要進行申請強制執行了你們趕快的去宣傳可以嗎我們盡量做不是盡量做請在一個月內提出你們要怎麼做的方法給我"},{"start":666.552,"end":685.67,"text":"所以我在這裡最後因為時間的關係請司局長我這個四大要求第一個以保單的類型解約金為借將部分保單排除在執行範圍內甚至要執行的部分也設定禮賠金的扣押上限這個部分保險局執行署受選工會請司法院會同來做可以嗎都點頭啦我當作你們都答應了"},{"start":689.819,"end":697.447,"text":"第二、對於保單強制執行統一的格式流程,定定一個保單強制執行參考原則,一個月內提出書面報告,誰要提?"},{"start":700.046,"end":719.654,"text":"保單強制執行看好原則因為司法院會盡量來協調啦但是要有人提啊你們不能三個合上沒水喝啊誰要提我們會盡量來那就司法院吳秘書長你來提一個月內我們司法院會來處理啦因為我們既然是重災期嘛重災期我們當然好啦那個廳長我覺得這樣秘書長願意承擔我們抱歉"},{"start":722.415,"end":741.522,"text":"我們要先把那個受險他的受險種類我了解我都了解司局長會幫你忙但是你最後誰要送來來司局長你一個月給司法院可以嗎我們可以訂一個月內先給司法院好司法院拿到一個月把書面報告提出來可以嗎"},{"start":742.543,"end":769.992,"text":"這樣可以了吧這個當然我們要積極配合啦因為我們是重災區嘛那就是你們如果保險局在一個月內沒有給你們整理這些保單、商品的類型那就責任剩下他給了你們之後一個月內把這順便報告提出來可以嗎我們一定會費整啦一定會費整一個月內齁因為這個一定要趕快積極處理啊好保險局當保險公司照強制性的保護提供的覆約延續條款請納入你們對保險公司普惠金融檢查項目定型公告可以嗎可以好再下一頁"},{"start":770.672,"end":799.811,"text":"那金融消費評議中心為了針對金融消費的弱勢消費者透過電台、電視、網路加強宣導保單你們可不可以一個月提出一個你們怎麼做的報告給我給我們本委員會就是做這種教育宣導我們提出報告但是就是說像這種電視電台或你們有沒有預算執行欸這個我們這個預算可能不是那麼多我會幫你們去爭取但是你們過去都只是被動的接受消費評議我希望你們要主動的告訴消費者有哪些潛在的風險"},{"start":804.222,"end":806.648,"text":"請進入沿路介入全路保險法,一個人提出書面延期報告。"}]}},{"id":"152362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d192da624a79d1f5d17edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac7a854e45adebac5195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:58:53 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10:06:02","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會「青年基本法草案」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-09","start_time":"2024-05-09T09:58:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-09T10:06:02+08:00","duration":429,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":19.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.75784375,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.48284375,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.28784375,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.43034375,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.00784375,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.46034375000001,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.83909375,"end":67.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.20596875000001,"end":75.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.15409375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.26346875,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.11721875,"end":163.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.61721875,"end":167.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.52784375000002,"end":173.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.53971875000002,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.76659375000003,"end":247.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.72221875000002,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.89284375,"end":275.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.63346875,"end":342.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.84221875000003,"end":347.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.89221875000004,"end":365.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.93159375000005,"end":383.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.49846875000003,"end":415.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.72971875,"end":428.68971875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.05,"text":"謝謝昭偉安排今天的公聽會也感謝出席與會的專家學者以及所有的青年朋友們青年是國家的未來也是希望青年是推動社會進步和發展的重要力量原動力"},{"start":30.379,"end":58.721,"text":"青年時期更是價值觀、人生觀、世界觀形成的重要階段每個人都只有一次的機會與青年相關的政策涵蓋面向非常多元在這個快速變化的數位時代裡頭國家的政策應該要如何陪伴青年們融入社會、安居樂業為他們提供發揮影響力的機會這個是我們都要一起共同努力的方向也應該不分黨派"},{"start":60.583,"end":75.238,"text":"接下来我们也会提出青年基本法草案的版本并将涵盖以下几个重点基于第一基于医疗科技的进步人口高龄化的趋势平均余命其实是越来越长的"},{"start":76.277,"end":103.763,"text":"民國元年的時候男性平均餘命是35歲女性39歲民國40年男性平均餘命是53歲女性56歲到了民國80年到110年的時候我們全國國人的平均餘命將近80歲接下來可能還會越來越高在可以見到的未來之下我們的平均餘命勢必還會持續的延長而且會越來越長"},{"start":105.356,"end":129.869,"text":"我從常常開玩笑說我可能會活到120歲現在在場的年輕人、青年朋友可能還會活到150或200歲大家都要去思考接下來更長的時間裡我們要做什麼所以在許多國家思考退休年齡延後的同時青年的定義也許也可以有更多的討論因此我的版本也將思考提高青年定義的年齡標準以因應未來社會的轉變"},{"start":131.01,"end":147.283,"text":"同時在元宇宙時代在AI時代之下有更多的人在虛擬世界裡頭也回復成青年在AI面前有更多的人也成為再次成為學生所以我相信青年定義的標準也應該隨著時代來討論"},{"start":150.202,"end":167.411,"text":"第二點草案當中除了包括教育環境舊創業健康居住等面向以外針對數位科技的快速發展我們也會提出AI青年文化青年等概念比如說我們希望能夠將青年數位平權的理念納入"},{"start":168.541,"end":168.661,"text":"葛如鈞"},{"start":198.661,"end":226.946,"text":"第三點 青年公共政策的參與部分我認為政府應該積極的為青年來建立參與公共事務的管道以外也應該要持續的給予賠利的機制讓有意願參與的青年能夠找到資源 取得資源並且在運用資源以後有機會再更進一步的回饋給社會讓社會在正循環當中一步一步的向前邁進讓我們的公眾參與的平均年齡可以持續的降低"},{"start":233.823,"end":261.518,"text":"近年來其實我們已經可以看到有非常非常多的這種事情正在發生有越來越多的青年人投入進一步的回饋給社會那我們國民黨近來也成立了數位黨部KMT Studio就是一個案例我們期待可以透過Studio這樣的一個平台把更多的創新科技AI的知識傳遞給更多人期待跟更多的青年朋友一起參與一起學習那第4點根據青年署的網站資料顯示"},{"start":262.967,"end":285.137,"text":"目前受有青年局的縣市僅有臺北市、新北市、桃園市、彰化縣與高雄市其他縣市將青年發展的業務組織單位放在不同的體系之下例如教育局、勞動局、社會局、產業發展局甚至研考會這也凸顯青年政策的面向相當的多元實在需要跨部會的協調統籌"},{"start":287.6,"end":311.57,"text":"此外,有鑒於現行青年法案署屬於三級機關對於跨部會的事宜顯然不一定能夠達到跨部會、跨層級的協調整合溝通因此我們的版本也將設置行政院層級的青年事務協調匯報以提高未來青年政策跨領域、跨部會的執行效益"},{"start":312.31,"end":332.509,"text":"在這一點上我相信AI的影響也會是非常非常的重要科技的影響也會非常非常的重要而且會是跨部會發生 跨層級的發生當他們正在跨部會 跨層級的影響著我們的青年未來發展的同時"},{"start":333.57,"end":342.409,"text":"我們的相關的部會的成績單位當然也必須要跟著一起跨部會跨成績的來為青年朋友做努力"},{"start":343.905,"end":364.911,"text":"最後我想要說的是引用愛因斯坦曾經說過的一句話每個人都是天才但如果你用爬樹的能力來評斷一條魚他終將終其一生的覺得自己是個笨蛋今天教育部的書院報告也說青年是國家發展的重要角色也是推動社會發展的重要力量"},{"start":366.113,"end":382.469,"text":"對於國家未來有極高的重要性因此我們期待可以透過青年基本法的法制高度由政府建構各個面向的整合性支持陪伴青年們找到每個人獨特的熱情和天賦"},{"start":383.703,"end":412.66,"text":"在接下來這個科技的浪潮襲來AI甚至不只是浪潮而是海嘯襲來的這個時代接下來還有更多的新興的科技包含機器人包含腦機介面包含量子電腦這些新的影響都可能滲透深入到我們社會生活青年成長環節當中的每一個層面我們期待這些都會是正面的影響"},{"start":413.641,"end":414.421,"text":"以上是我的想法 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792debbd7f9fb844fd53b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac74e9b506dd3952c205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:44:20 - 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今年出的以前就對了 這是出的舊 這是新的啦 舊的保單還是一樣啦 這個問題又繼續發生喔 不是的保單而已所以金管會對這條 要拜託一下 我個人的感覺 這如果沒有關係解決啦"},{"start":230.509,"end":258.14,"text":"您發官、司法院及法務部不管是就要上來立法院要追加領完的編制感謝,秘書長因為這個現在就重災期啊,就需要這麼多人力啊沒有啦,所以我們要打平手嘛不是只討你們這裡嘛,不是只討金管會嘛,不是只討保險局嘛所以政府是一體的啦,政府應該一體來面對這樣一個問題啊你對特勤的這裡,他們不要那麼煩躁,沒有這樣的事情啦"},{"start":261.235,"end":273.145,"text":"主席,我告訴你,你應該去聽聽看,你都不要怕車子,人家在問的時候,你大點點去,把他下車來聽,你就知道說你那裡執行官外殺,你不知道啊。"},{"start":281.207,"end":296.379,"text":"委員應該是不會啦,我剛剛問的那些執行官齁,那些都是為人民服務齁,我覺得應該態度不會這樣啦。民代車友,爺爺能講,齁齁,夠厲害。你這樣又說不會,我又跟你說我背董事,你去咕嚕咗你聽到沒有。是,是,委員我會去了解,齁。這製造,不會去製造這麼的,你最重要的特質沒有不對啦。什麼私人骨頭空喔,你就有空去把它黏出來啦。"},{"start":310.359,"end":321.285,"text":"我跟董事長拿一支肥肝去說,他說這故事我阿公留下來,這清掉了,這假日沒用,這給你們靠這樣好不好?你暗罵會對不對?一聲就敢罵清?你們看得到,他會比較要放肚就對了,沒有的都沒有的今天法務部報告、金管會都有來,我跟你說一件很嚴重的事情譬如說這監理比較沒有關係你敢知道現在這次"},{"start":340.831,"end":346.516,"text":"委員這個部分應該是類似融資公司在處理的,是。我告訴你這4萬5要行7萬3千4百4十了,這樣沒關係,這是機車喔。"},{"start":370.461,"end":386.125,"text":"開車,很多年輕人跟老伯老婦說他要買車,我們同事也要買車,我們朋友也要買車,同事之間就對了,同事之間就是大家都開車,他就要買車,四大人一定說啊,看什麼啦,我只要給這四大人拜託去處理這幾項就對了,有夠多啦,看什麼,再來,造成現在為什麼李修車會那麼多?"},{"start":398.885,"end":407.031,"text":"李秀燮我告訴你,這台車2百萬啦齁,新的行情天書拿去看,2百萬,它會賺不到30二萬,你覺得嗎?年輕人現在在急著愛用錢啊,賣到六倍啊,現在來去,30二萬你不用投機款,農莊貸款,這樣就中四萬啦,這沒什麼,這30二萬,"},{"start":427.523,"end":436.925,"text":"人家說幫我好來好不過後台啦來開始 帳管費啦 手續費啦 開辦費啦 加加的一更兩三萬 加到這 加到後分團組36集 團組36集啦 理事代替的3檔要結納差不多50%啦 3檔要結納50%啦"},{"start":456.784,"end":463.569,"text":"這30萬要繳45萬啦!每款寫的35萬,啊怎麼年輕人你幫我報,我幫你報,我們都會等不及啊!啊這搞不好就後面,特勤還是對歐德去啦!特效公司啦!啊這搞你現在都沒辦法啦!這要把你歡迎過來變成這樣?"},{"start":482.864,"end":496.634,"text":"報告委員 融資公司的部分我們的銀行局其實也有找幾大融資公司在溝通啦希望他們也能夠定制立規範所以您是知道問題的問題就對了啦 確定有這個問題是還是要我們把案例稍稍給你們看有啦 我們大概銀行局那邊應該都有掌握到一些資料沒有啦 放給這些年輕人過啦 不好這樣啦"},{"start":506.298,"end":518.322,"text":"他們現在很厲害,他們現在把所有賣出去的車,車牌都放在PDA裡面,電腦裡面喔,開喔,你只要2機沒力,3機沒力,路邊找到,通報所有的保養所喔,只要這台車來保養,要通報回去,他有最快的,要叫人來把車調到他,這樣後來就開始來對這件事了嘛,因為你錢沒力喔"},{"start":529.008,"end":537.418,"text":"阿你現在32萬的車對不對,你才半年後調回去阿,調回去他把你拍賣給你說什麼,這台車拍賣15萬,你給他看嘛,阿你32萬你要給他40八萬,40八萬加靠15萬"},{"start":549.842,"end":565.752,"text":"你還欠他33萬我講你聽得懂嗎?他們年輕就是這樣算的年輕就是這樣算的啊所以社會比較不會亂啊這個年輕人又退散啊、走路啊啊要怎樣?四大人要出來處理啊四大人就對民意代表才會擔心啊整個規定就是這樣若不精討去面對啦所以為什麼一天王世堅會說這些人真的臨江生鏡也不可創啦"},{"start":580.633,"end":584.598,"text":"這比放學後來更慘,放學後來就好不過後台了啦。所以,這我看你把這個公司齁,貸款的公司,租賃的這裡,包括民間做的這個,是不是一分數了還,好不好?"},{"start":601.732,"end":607.678,"text":"好,我會轉予銀行局,請他們提供一個書面。拜託他給我們,我比較知道要怎麼面對,我告訴你最方有什麼怪招嗎?好不好?是,好。好。"}]}},{"id":"152360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792de164e851680cfbbab4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac79c8b0e28f4b914155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:33:35 - 09:44:12","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-05-09T09:44:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T09:33:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":185,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時33分）謝謝主席，我們先請吳秘書長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長早。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：在司法院解凍的報告當中有提及國民法官制度，對於現行絕對評議的秘密原則進行檢討，是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神？依國民法官法第八十五條第二項規定，案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人，得於裁判確定後聲請閱覽評議意見。但不得抄錄、攝影或影印。而在上會期我們審議決議寫到，實務上因為評議意見只有摘要和結論，所以沒有辦法得知結論的脈絡，若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決，恐會有失國人對司法的信任。","我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到，司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度，從過去所做的一般民眾對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到，民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮，人身安全和個資保護有其優先性。從調查結果也能夠看到，不論是否有實際參與國民法官的經驗，都對於隱私和安全有相當的重視。另外，從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查結果報告當中可以看到，在影響參與審判意願的因素當中，人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅，但是在實際參與審判之後，這項疑慮占比降低了許多。我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告？評議秘密的緩和可能有多大程度影響到民眾參審的意願？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為在一般的裁判案件審理，評議的內容是有相當的機制來保管，必要的時候如何調閱有一套很嚴謹的程序，因為這個涉及到參與評議的法官，甚至以後國民法官案件有關國民法官個人的隱私這一方面如何保護，這個跟如何公開或閱覽是相對性的問題，就這方面我們刑事廳也有一個相當的對策。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒關係，因為要保障我們國民法官自由表述，人身安全也是促進我們民眾參審的一個重要價值，但是也不能犧牲掉當事人的權益，應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應，或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的判決結果。這次司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了其他國家採用的制度，當然也有經過變聲處理、開放當事人閱覽記載詳盡的筆錄等方式，但是在結論當中，看起來我們還是以保護國民法官為優先，要再進行整體的評估。我還是再請教秘書長，司法院目前還是暫時不打算做出相關的調整，以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民、法官和當事人的權益嗎？接下來我們評估的修正方向，是要看之前電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果，才能夠再做重新的調整嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為新制度的推行，尤其涉及到這種相對性的關係人、相對性的權利，所以這一部分在司法院是很審慎的評估，隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題，這個還是要很謹慎，因為這個有相對性的權利要保護。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以就是還要再審慎的檢討。"],["吳秘書長三龍：其實這方面要很審慎啦！"],["陳委員俊宇：好。接下來我想請教秘書長有關國民法官制度檢辯資源不對等的這個問題，我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮，因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪，通常會由頂尖的檢察官來辦理，但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下，可能就會有資源和實力上的落差。一樣從國民法官問卷調查結果報告的內容可以看到，參與審判的國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予檢辯雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多，但我們還是看得出來，對於檢察官的整體評價是高於辯護人的部分，這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況。許宗力院長也曾經表示過，司法院作為國民法官制度的推動機關，所需要因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的市場機制來解決，我還是請教秘書長，目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這些都要從人性面考量，所以在法扶律師那一部分，我們會儘量提高他酬金的天花板，在法院部分也有約聘辯護人，是有這方面的招聘，就儘量要讓辯護人方面的水準也能夠跟檢方、檢察官還是要能夠平衡起來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，從我們這個書面報告看起來，還是大多朝向就是誠如秘書長剛剛所說的，提高我們律師的薪酬，也能夠提高辯護的量能，我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的方向，我還是請教秘書長，是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓檢辯雙方的資源更加平衡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們司行廳其實都有相當的對策。"],["高廳長玉舜：委員好。謝謝委員垂詢這個問題，有關法扶國法案件酬金的部分，在今年，因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們擬具草案之後送我們司法院核定之後再施行，目前的進度是這樣，先跟委員報告，就是有關國法案件的酬金，有關基數的部分，我們已經調高成一個基數為2,000元。另外有關複數辯護律師的部分，之前是以國法案件的一審可以做複數律師的指派，現在我們把它放寬到如果是案情繁雜的國法案件，我們可以從偵查，甚至上訴審也可以做複數辯護律師，因為搭配酬金計付辦法的調整，其實我們就法扶的部分，我們也請法扶成立一個……目前有做一個國法案件的任務編組，把他們的專職律師納入這個小組裡面。另外預計以後可能要成立刑事辯護中心來承接部分的國法案件，也順便提高國法案件辯護的質與量，以上報告，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告？"],["高廳長玉舜：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外我想請教我們秘書長，除了我們促進民眾對於國民法官的參與之外，我們也期待辯護人能夠持續地參審，司法院有沒有調查過曾經參審國民法官案件的辯護人，他再參與的意願為何？或他不想去參與的原因是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部刑事廳裡面……"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，這部分我們都有進行相關的問卷調查，可能要再看詳細的資料，其實對於辯護人……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那沒關係，還是會後再給我一份書面報告，簡單的書面報告。"],["陳副廳長信旗：好，了解。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為我們國民法官這一年多來，有越來越多的案例可以做整體的檢討，目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告，可以說做得相當地完整也非常地精美，還有很多項目可以參考討論，我也希望我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日出爐，也能夠繼續來精進、推動，使我們國民法官法的制度可以更完善，讓它符合我們當初設立的目標跟期待，也能夠讓民眾再度提高對於司法的信任，這部分秘書長應該持續去加強把關。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長、謝謝委員。接下來請謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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ING所謂的活躍老年他們甚至把這個青年的階段是設定在60歲左右"},{"start":34.161,"end":34.281,"text":"柯志恩議員"},{"start":49.344,"end":77.297,"text":"身心靈上只要具有青年的一個意識都可以共同來討論到底一個國家的政策如何來給青年更好的一個發展的一個方向那我想我們過去都聽過所謂的性別主流化文化主流化還有觀光主流化的一個政策那麼我國的政府也制定了相關的法規來推動但是呢只有這個青年主流化也就是比較是系統性的讓我們的青年來參與公共的事務來說而且最重要的各位"},{"start":77.637,"end":78.157,"text":"法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":103.683,"end":109.545,"text":"這個所謂的一個基本法就是一個宣示性的真正能夠落實到的我們應該著力更多的反而是在所謂的執法跟所謂的施行細則對吧但是呢你如果沒有一個母法通過的話這樣的執法跟施行的細則也是沒有辦法有一個根據的"},{"start":124.17,"end":124.27,"text":"柯志恩議員"},{"start":148.996,"end":149.596,"text":"中央及地方對青年發展"},{"start":167.165,"end":167.405,"text":"民間共同來以獎勵方法來"},{"start":194.991,"end":195.111,"text":"柯志恩議員"},{"start":218.169,"end":218.81,"text":"立法院第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":239.025,"end":239.145,"text":"柯志恩議員"},{"start":263.823,"end":280.031,"text":"新政府不是已經推動了非常多青年政策了嗎但是他不知道青年政策是隨著你這個時候特別是不同的時空背景你可以提出來但是我們就是沒有一個法而曾經人院長也在今年初造開行政院的青年諮詢委員會的會議上說我們要請教育部清法署來繼續借盡國外的經驗來評估青年發展法的必要性"},{"start":288.215,"end":288.275,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":309.053,"end":309.113,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":333.991,"end":334.051,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":353.109,"end":353.729,"text":"《青年基本法草案》公聽會：柯志恩"},{"start":379.54,"end":380.581,"text":"公聽會（事由：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":394.735,"end":394.855,"text":"公聽會：柯志恩"},{"start":412.159,"end":412.359,"text":"主席主席主席"}]}},{"id":"152358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d6908e2f6172029c917edc876f0c7792e36499d1b681a2ac739797466756a34355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:31:16 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謝謝主席各位在座各位夥伴大家好剛剛有第一位同學說那個30歲以上不算青年了然後想說那我超過了我現在已經不是青年的代表但是沒有關係我還是非常在乎年輕人的權益這個也是過去我在議會就不斷的在提的所以現在很感謝我們林錦委員這樣召開這個青年基本法的公聽會我覺得廣納青年的聲音真的非常的重要"},{"start":35.297,"end":56.586,"text":"因為其實大家有提出非常多的版本那裡面其實光是從年齡的定義然後服務的對象然後要納入什麼樣的參與權其實都有蠻多分歧的意見所以我覺得今天希望大家可以多聚焦那我也希望說這個版本可以趕快的最後大家有共識送出去那在我自己的版本裡面最重要的兩個重點"},{"start":57.987,"end":84.06,"text":"第一個是就是要讓青年能夠參與公共政策因為大家的聲音納進來賦予他權利是最重要的所以我的版本裡面有提到說中央政府每年要召開兩次的青年政策的諮詢匯報讓這些青年代表專家學者跟公民團體來參與然後隨時滾動式的檢討青年的政策然後讓青年本身就在這個政策形成的過程當中我認為這個是最重要的"},{"start":84.58,"end":99.508,"text":"那再來第二個政府應該要每4年就訂定一次青年政策白皮書就是說台灣這個國家對於青年的願景是什麼然後這個是有很明確的時程的這個時程安排非常重要所以這個白皮書的形成讓大家知道說"},{"start":100.188,"end":121.641,"text":"在台灣的青年接下來可以政府會跟你有什麼樣的連結然後讓你有什麼樣的未來你都不用擔心這個也是非常重要所以每兩年要訂定國家青年發展的計畫然後把這個內容的訂定由中央主管機關來召集相關的部會學者然後這個主管機關也要定義清楚然後再把公民團體跟青年政策的諮詢彙報的代表讓大家來參與"},{"start":124.322,"end":151.421,"text":"那這些做法的最重要的目的還是要讓青年進到這個政策制定的過程而不是讓這個高牆持續存在打破這個這個隔閡是非常重要的就是青年表達的聲音不是永遠在牆外而是進到牆內那大家可以表達自己的意見之後這個政策的形成就可以變成是有實質的效力的那其實很多國家已經都把青年的聲音具體的納入他的立法例裡面了"},{"start":152.542,"end":173.364,"text":"通過基本法或是專法的保障這些青年的基本權是現在國際上的人權趨勢那台灣也應該要重視例如說其實南韓2020年就有青年基本法了那他們的這些青年政策的協調委員會讓青年表達意見的空間其實也都在他們的立法例裡面有納入那芬蘭也是一樣芬蘭非常早在"},{"start":175.386,"end":191.136,"text":"1972年就已經有這個青年法然後他們其實裡面的那些規範也都非常成熟了大家也可以參考那最重要除了說納入青年聲音還要促進平等然後不要說有所謂的年齡歧視或是因為我自己是對於這個年齡歧視非常有感從25歲當議員到現在都還是會被說你真的太年輕了你沒有資格當這個身份"},{"start":197.74,"end":197.76,"text":"黃捷議員"},{"start":215.04,"end":220.066,"text":"希望大家一起在今天的公聽會後把這個共識拿出來然後加速的審議讓台灣的年輕人可以決定自己的未來謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d0e2c2a1b5e636014b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac73a4875bd750b89d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:21:14 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這個部分齁 這個部分我們等這個最後我們看到這個條文齁可能有很多部分可能要以他最後版本為準對 當然是以最後版本為準齁那但是有關於這個大型網路平台要求在台灣要指定代理人像TikTok這些大型網路平台因為我們現在目前整個"},{"start":288.334,"end":299.691,"text":"查緝、詐欺犯罪最大、碰到最大困難就在這網路平台的部分這部分我們目前我看到的辦法是要求這些大型網路平台在台灣必須要指定法律代理人"},{"start":300.731,"end":321.538,"text":"那這個另外有關於巨額詐欺加重罪有關於這個三犯不得假釋或者是這個窩裡反條款這些部分我們都希望說到時候我們看到確定的法案之後這部分可能再跟這個相關的執行單位我們再來討論好不好兩位請回"},{"start":324.244,"end":344.436,"text":"好那接下來接下來我是先請這個這個阿等一下這個這個秘書長你還是還是稍微留步齁有關於我們這個今天的主題啦齁我們這個民事民事大法庭裁定了齁裁定有關於這個授權保單該作為可作為執行標的的部分齁這部分這個"},{"start":348.14,"end":373.676,"text":"究竟這個人壽保險他有沒有這個一身專屬性是不是屬於一身專屬性的權利在法律上面當然還有一些爭議但是我們既然我們大法庭這民事大法庭做了統一的見解但這個統一見解做下去之後為什麼今天會召開這樣的會剛才各個單位的報告也都聽到了也都聽到就是他事實上剛才我看到我們司法院自己的報告也提到我們這個北檢跟市檢"},{"start":375.219,"end":388.812,"text":"的這個不堪負荷,負荷非常沉重,就因為通過這個見解,所以事實上不只是我們這個法院案件增加的負荷而已,事實上四大增加,民眾的抱怨也增加,很多"},{"start":390.193,"end":405.325,"text":"民眾的抱怨再來保險公司跟保險公會的負擔也增加因為你們這過程你們要查詢你們要查詢這個保單所以保險公會跟保險公司他的負擔也增加再來我們民意代表接受的陳情也增加量真的增加很大"},{"start":408.211,"end":433.777,"text":"所以這個我們還是事實上需要解決啦我剛剛有看到你們的這個報告裡面有關這個這一年來這個民事大法庭做出這個統一的見解之後這一年來所增加的幅度將近到三成耶三成是相當可怕的數字啊那這個後續的狀況齁這個有很多部分可能"},{"start":435.35,"end":435.39,"text":"市長請報告"},{"start":458.413,"end":484.924,"text":"市長好久不見歡迎你今天到司法法制委員會來了我剛看到你們的報告你們提到就今天的這個主題你們提到說儘管會有四大因應作為四大因應作為那我這個我剛所講的狀況包括我們司法院秘書長說他是重災區法院的案件增加量是重災區事實上保險公司跟保險公會我想這個"},{"start":486.624,"end":501.837,"text":"局長應該非常清楚他們負擔增加的狀況是驚人所以我們還是要看金管會的因應作為金管會的因應作為在報告裡面提到四大因應作為第一個是說要求保險業主動關懷保險契約遭強制執行戶"},{"start":506.389,"end":530.795,"text":"這部分其實他就是增加保險業的業者的增加他的這個負擔嘛是第二個要求受險公司提供覆約延續條款這部分我看你們已經做了啦你們在這個去年的12月你們已經發了一個人身保險商品審查應注意事項已經讓他讓他這個包括他有沒有"},{"start":535.39,"end":535.87,"text":"報告委員因為互約是一年"},{"start":559.65,"end":561.191,"text":"但是你們再來你們提到說你們要執行這個機關簡化"},{"start":586.42,"end":588.201,"text":"我們已經在擬這個條文了就是已經滿久了捏"},{"start":614.752,"end":624.543,"text":"因為這件事情應該是上個月我們的那個有沒有包括這個受益人介入的制度"},{"start":625.219,"end":640.612,"text":"有,因為我們有一個委員研究計畫,所以我們會把受益人……大概修法兩個重點,第一個就是明定這個保障型的契約不能不予強制執行,這是第一個重點。第二個就是受益人的介入制度,這個部分要納入,要引入,對不對?對,這個齁,我是"},{"start":646.958,"end":660.29,"text":"因為這個東西牽涉到事實上現在我們知道現在這樣亂象但是其實政府各單位其實也在運用這個方式在進行強制執行我們今天國稅署在這裡"},{"start":661.948,"end":679.823,"text":"他們這個光去年去年透過這個這個人壽保單的強制執行去年就追回追回的這個這個這個款項都到兩億多的是不是對不對兩億多這就是就是這個所以你們這個未來如果如果修法啊不只這個中華電信"},{"start":681.024,"end":681.044,"text":"是。"},{"start":698.363,"end":715.313,"text":"我們會盡快來處理我們近期會召開公聽會大概應該是現在是五月我們大概五月底之前會先召開過第一次的那個跟業者還有我們會邀執行機關一起來"},{"start":717.554,"end":727.178,"text":"五月底召開公認會我們照這個進度盡快的把修法完成不然我剛剛講四大負擔包括我們自己今天司法院就在這裡講重災區這個我們盡快加速來進行"}]}},{"id":"152356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792d6598cb9e67dcffbaa2de8cf52a9c4a3136499d1b681a2ac7090407a59ae08d9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:17:40 - 09:19:55","影片長度":"00:02:15","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n五、繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n六、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n七、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n八、繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n九、繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十、繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十一、繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十三、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。\n【5月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-17"},"duration":135,"end_time":"2024-05-09T09:19:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T09:17:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.95409375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.62846875,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.044093750000002,"end":30.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.473468750000002,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.96596875,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.14534375000001,"end":79.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.17034375,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.13971875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.20409375000001,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.26096875,"end":124.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.21784375000001,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.78659375,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":135.75659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.31,"text":"我國屬於海島型國家,在進行周邊海域的保育工作,這是有助於促進海洋永續利用以及海洋權益的發展,這也符合國際上的趨勢。"},{"start":24.119,"end":41.285,"text":"在世界潮流的影響之下我國更應該要運用臺灣原住民族6000年以上的海洋保育的經驗然後藉由原住民對自然的理解來一起協助政府瞭解7D"},{"start":41.505,"end":42.506,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〉"},{"start":59.56,"end":86.496,"text":"因此本席就擬具海洋保育法的草案規範相關的政策的制定還有區域的劃設主管機關必須要會同原住民族中央主管機關今天園民會也有來以及其他有關的機關至於審議會的組成原住民等等民間的人士的代表的比例應該要達三分之二"},{"start":87.236,"end":90.339,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":107.616,"end":110.437,"text":"人擬具〈海洋保育法草案案〉案〈海洋保育法草案〉案"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}