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現在中國在台灣選情得來做國情報告並不是因。那所以剛才黃昌偉講說,依當時的法令,"},{"start":2834.326,"end":2860.187,"text":"然後他意思說當時假如我們接下去馬上處理到一碗直接刑事法的時候依當時的法律錯了這叫依憲法不是依法律直接刑事法假如修了違反憲法的話也是違憲的所以依憲不是依當時的法律這個大家應該我們堅持是這一點至於上禮拜"},{"start":2861.808,"end":2871.994,"text":"有的時候在院長在院長室主找當然來協商含的就是說有關於國情報告今天要處理嘛那來協商還有兩個法OK"},{"start":2876.075,"end":2898.117,"text":"那...那時候是...台灣事實上處於前嘛,我們大家冷靜的講。所以三黨黨邊都有在中間有一些對話,院長你也是在場的。那時候剛才副委員總召所談的就是說,很平時就是講說國情報告怎麼樣,他沒有提到很關鍵性的問題。"},{"start":2899.759,"end":2919.289,"text":"不過他剛才也有談到就是過去李登輝總統那國大說做國情報告經過執行沒有啦那個是那不是執行李登輝總統說國情報告以後這都是統一非啦沒有所謂執行的問題"},{"start":2920.35,"end":2945.071,"text":"那我們今天要回到我們今天要談的核心問題那當然大家都要開天宗收斂化石我記得那時候有國民黨說有洪孟凱委員開始講講了喔聽起來好像沒有條件他們OK的我說洪孟凱你能不能代表副總裁副總裁坐旁邊嘛你們兩個坐在一起請副總裁表示意見嘛"},{"start":2947.551,"end":2973.777,"text":"也講說不是條件在院會發言的時候也講著逛免堂房就是說大概要展開憲政的新業但是呢 國民黨有一個單書要賴總統先來在行政院長是五六年以後他兩個禮拜內要來立法院做施政報告三年前要把出面報告拿出來"},{"start":2974.966,"end":2991.126,"text":"不過,國民黨堅持的是．賴總統先來。這個,這個爭點嘛。那你當時也在場。至於黃國昌委員還講的剛才那樣,依當時的法令,不管你保護5月17號,或是哪一天,因為5月0以後,"},{"start":2992.714,"end":3012.496,"text":"行政院長就要來啊。要宣法他要來做背刑啊。兩禮拜要來啊。你總不能製造先前衝突。我們民眾保證說5月17號每通過的那個直接刑事法是可用的。那我還是堅持依依憲法不是依當時通過的法律。我當時候我問他說依依法嗎?我說依什麼法?"},{"start":3013.317,"end":3024.419,"text":"你有講過嗎?依當時總統的懷疑。就假設明517就要處理這些執行刑署啊。那517能不能處理執行刑署啊?處理到什麼程度?那是另外一回事。"},{"start":3025.154,"end":3050.479,"text":"那資源情報五月十七號當然他有很多很多不是只有國民報告因為描述國會罪啊很多吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":3052.379,"end":3080.161,"text":"那所以這樣的情況底下那黃昌偉要說那就是統問統答什麼叫統問統答聽不懂那意思說民眾黨問完那總統回答民眾黨問完那總統回答我知道講錯你的意思等一下我可以再修正沒有關係那民眾黨問完沒有大概你一個不管怎樣但是要來讓總統回答"},{"start":3082.142,"end":3103.191,"text":"但實現刑事法在這方面規定很詳盡也就是說至於這個多少人問那陳奕迅委員怎麼排那問的時間每一黨政黨比多少但是呢最後主動選是在賴總統他德與否都是他決定我們都尊重當然總統能夠來我會做國民報告"},{"start":3106.724,"end":3120.141,"text":"這是歷經的時刻美國總統做國情報告以後就走得很後悔亦乎如此後悔總統甚至要留下來留下來來回答國會議員的話都被國會議員趕出去"},{"start":3123.525,"end":3139.796,"text":"所以現在我們是在一個要先任時刻同時我們希望打開薰葉讓總統來做國情報告來代表對立法院的尊重那這真的是一個很嶄新的時刻也是光榮的時刻"},{"start":3141.857,"end":3165.745,"text":"他自己諮問來可以我們邀請他都可以這是雙項的我相信賴總統也是立法委員出身的他對立法院也深深了解他也當過行政院長常常來背刑那我現在提議的問題就是說假如賴總統520下禮拜一就禮拜一520上台那當然韓院長也要主持交接嘛"},{"start":3168.947,"end":3174.911,"text":"那後會在卡到前面發表五二零的引述"},{"start":3176.192,"end":3196.713,"text":"你說五二年他講完的話,然後你在五二年以後要馬上叫他來,這件話會有所不同嗎?我們先講清楚啦。這是很簡單的邏輯,但是這個問題還是要回到現場程式去講。我們希望我們立法院是一個可以理性討論的一個場域。"},{"start":3198.955,"end":3220.774,"text":"法院長,我們在三十年前有機會,我們在國會前面改選以後經常去法院來,弄事九年。你今天貴的院長,這民主態度非常珍貴。我們大家一定應該來共同來守護這民主,讓民主在台灣能夠進行。後面李事業也講過,民主非常可愛,可以理性討論。"},{"start":3221.815,"end":3250.441,"text":"所以今天我們講,我有講這些話,也許大家覺得有點自和但是我是佩服自言我今天對任何人都沒有秉諺的意思我只是講出我們共產黨要思考一個問題立法院是一個讓民主能夠進行讓民主能夠繼續發展走下去但是我們不要在這裡製造新任衝突而且討論在這裡製造新任衝突到底行政黨員要來那共產黨員要來"},{"start":3251.201,"end":3265.156,"text":"那我們憲法設計是什麼?我們憲法設計當然是很清楚嘛。是,這是條第四條嘛,第三條。就是說總統、任命行政院長,行政院長來立法院做事宜報告以備刑。這是他的義務。"},{"start":3266.57,"end":3292.262,"text":"那相對我們執行是我們的權利。就是一樣的嘛。假如在行政院法案提呼以後,然後就失敗。也可以倒閣啊。不信的話,然後要解散國會。這是整個憲法的設置。那憲法本文也是一樣的。你從憲法本文要從53條到61條。這就是行政院都說什麼事情。"},{"start":3293.442,"end":3311.467,"text":"六十二條到七十五條,立法院做什麼事情?立法院是預決法律案、預算案、憲章過後條約案等等,及國家重大施政方針。所以我在這裡非常懇請拜託,大家要從"},{"start":3314.104,"end":3330.446,"text":"現任的角度、憲法的角度去看待一些事情。我不想憲法在這裡被謀唆。全世界沒有一個國家,乃至共和國家,對於憲法,任何人對憲法有抵抗權。我們都必須向憲法立法。"},{"start":3331.806,"end":3336.588,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":3349.175,"end":3364.256,"text":"所以我再次承諾這是現任時刻這個也是我們大家要面對的就是說每一個人都要向現任人依託不是應該修憲的東西修憲的你用修法來可以期待的"},{"start":3365.097,"end":3386.249,"text":"這一點我不相信以防王總召你法律博士的素質應該很清楚這個我是覺得大家很冷靜他要來談接下來應該怎麼樣我有兩個真點讓大家都可以討論你這樣我先發表我的看法呃我"},{"start":3392.506,"end":3409.054,"text":"不行不行,中委不是我,不是對我。因為我是以見證人的立場,我要跟院長請求,我是在場唯一一位,現在在場唯一一位,聽取過總統國情報告的前國大代表兼現任的立法委員。好,那我就請龍我在歷史上的部分描述一下,好嗎?"},{"start":3410.715,"end":3426.284,"text":"我中委我沒有對你不禮貌的意思啊那個國民黨團跟民眾黨黨團請問一下對中委員想要用見證者的身份來做一個說明同意不同意這個很重要這個等一下我們還要討論這個啊不是我們抄寫起來沒有"},{"start":3429.546,"end":3453.964,"text":"國情報告是什麼?那個主席沒有同意,請你把麥克風按掉好嗎?這是你的指揮,我是指揮,你在指揮嘛。中委員對不起啊,非常抱歉,因為我們等一下,等一下我們對於誰可以撐交,等一下我們要好好來討論好不好?因為我,因為第一次朝野協商,可能到只有邀請的比較雷厲風行。所以說,如果民進黨黨團請了中委員來說明,我必須"},{"start":3457.566,"end":3465.77,"text":"要尊重一下國民黨團．民眾黨黨團的意見,抱歉喔,這程序上我一定要這樣做,否則此例一開,將來很麻煩。國民黨團．民眾黨黨團必須要表態,因為我不能夠擅自採取。"},{"start":3478.427,"end":3490.876,"text":"沒有,我再請院長才是,因為院長沒點頭以前,我不敢隨便拔眼。那這樣好不好,因為,總委員對不起喔,因為,因為這個東西委員大家相處會很尷尬。那待會再說沒關係。對,我建議是這樣的,跟時間無關。"},{"start":3495.41,"end":3511.175,"text":"跟時間有關,三分鐘五分鐘不是這個問題,是跟我們這個體制有關,真的很抱歉喔,很抱歉。那中委員對不起,我可能要請你離席,好不好,對不起喔,對不起。如果我們討論結束的時候,如果您方便的話,我們達人共識。"},{"start":3517.81,"end":3545.622,"text":"好好好 總委你請坐不好意思喔我沒辦法一把議員委員從議場趕出去這個是何等大事啊那個 院長剛剛你有表示吧 國民黨團表示意見我是覺得我們這個會場還是要有制度啦對那制度怎麼定定的上次院長有說得很清楚就是各政黨可以提出提出要求"},{"start":3546.638,"end":3574,"text":"那院長也同意．其他政黨也同意．那我們就可以來執行那我想第一次因為院長有提出上次這樣的一個議事規則我們也表示敬表尊重那今天現在民進黨有提出希望中加兵委員能夠來做見證的方式講三分鐘基本上國民黨的立場我們基本上我們尊重院長才是好不好"},{"start":3575.698,"end":3590.039,"text":"請問臺灣民眾黨黨團黃國昌總召．於莊家斌委員以過來人的身份．做三分鐘的說明,同意不同意?對不起,競表不同意。第二個部分,也是基於對院長的尊重,就是說"},{"start":3591.673,"end":3613.403,"text":"在整個發言的順序上我可以希望建立一個基本的原則那個原則是說上一次院長其實試圖針對我們大概發言的時間發言的順序跟次數奠定一些規則那不過很遺憾上次的這個規則其實是無疾而終"},{"start":3615.444,"end":3640.475,"text":"沒有任何的結論。」好,那也沒有關係。那如果是這個樣子的話,我們針對一個議題的討論,那是不是可以徵求院長的同意,三個黨團彼此之間就用輪流的,比如說國民黨團發言一次,民進黨團發言一次,台灣民眾黨黨團發言一次,我們透過這樣子rotation的方式,我想說看是不是可以"},{"start":3641.235,"end":3650.408,"text":"更有效率一點。」這個以上是給院長的一個粗淺的一個建議讓院長可以考慮可以參採"},{"start":3658.579,"end":3677.716,"text":"那第二個部分是說在整個發言次序跟發言順序以及會不會發言的整個過程裡面我們都還是會尊重院長對於會議的主持以上謝謝台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召的說明接下來請盧思瑤幹事長請說"},{"start":3680.302,"end":3696.959,"text":"好,謝謝院長。我想先進入一下程序,然後再實質。好,程序的部分,我想今天鍾嘉斌委員他坐在這裡爭取發言跟參與,他是兩個身份。第一個當然他是在場唯一一個國民大會過去曾任代表的。"},{"start":3697.62,"end":3715.162,"text":"那他過去參與過李登輝前總統在國大代表國民大會的時候來進行這個國情報告所以有必要讓他表達一下過去的經驗作為我們今天協商議定在國會立法院總統國情咨文報告的經驗參採"},{"start":3716.824,"end":3738.264,"text":"二、眾嘉賓委員坐在這．同時身兼立法院司法法治委員會的召委．今天在討論總統的國情報告的同時．其實不可切割的．也是剛剛柯總召在發言時提到的．我們同時在司法法治委員會進行的．立法院職權行事法．也就是國會改革法案當中的修法進程"},{"start":3738.844,"end":3758.065,"text":"而當中就攸關總統赴立院的國情報告．修法的內容應當如何。」所以我們在前幾次的協商過程當中也多次跟院長表達過在立法院的協商的現場那相關的重要的委員會議案的召委"},{"start":3758.525,"end":3781.496,"text":"主持的召委．他勢必應當是受邀的列席人員。」這個我們要多次來說明所以今天非常再請兩位謝謝剛剛副總召他認為是尊重院長才是那黃國昌總召是不同意見我還是再發言一下爭取不同的黨團能夠來同意宗家兵委員的發言列席那第二個呢回到這個案子的實質"},{"start":3782.637,"end":3784.958,"text":"如果以國民黨的提案．它的第一句話就是依據美國跟法國的經驗那美國法國的經驗不管是總統制或者是半總統制我們都知道他們的經驗是總統國情報告完之後隨即離開即便在法國的制度上能夠讓國會議員進行相關總統報告的辯論"},{"start":3805.729,"end":3820.143,"text":"但是那也必須在總統報告結束離場之後才得進行。」所以這是我們也在1997年修憲之後台灣才請辦總統制所以相關的法國跟美國的經驗都值得台灣來參採"},{"start":3822.825,"end":3848.603,"text":"總統是報告完之後隨即離開我是先依據這個國民黨的這個提案裡頭那國民黨後面當然也看到上週五願意釋出善意針對這個安排答覆的部分我們可以比較不設前提的討論我非常的認同我們稍後可以來進行那民眾黨團的提案的部分我的就提案論提案他的重點是說依法回應立法委員提出這問題那民眾黨團的這個依法回應"},{"start":3852.405,"end":3870.665,"text":"就涉及我們在安排的制度上如何來處理所以我們在協商中應當來處理的是總統來國情報告時間落在何時那民進黨團的意見跟主張就是依據憲政的權力分立原則應當先由中泰新革魁來進行施政報告之後"},{"start":3872.747,"end":3887.085,"text":"總統再安排。」實踐上,民進黨團的建議是如此,因為這是憲政精神。第二,總統來了,依據《立法院直覺行使法》第15-3講得很清楚,對於委員的發言時間、委員的發言順序,還有"},{"start":3891.71,"end":3918.132,"text":"以政黨的比例各是多少。」這個就是我們今天要討論的所以說如果以民眾黨版的決議的建議案的話是說好像之前口頭上我也聽到黃總召友說到是逐位回應那是每一位每一位A委員問完總統答B委員問完總統答或者是統合全部的委員假設20位委員回答"},{"start":3919.973,"end":3942.919,"text":"詢問完之後總統同意回答。」這個是不同形式。那第三種形式也有可能是國民黨假設五位委員問完總統先答一次。然後民眾黨委員可能是兩位問完總統回答。然後民進黨可能五位然後總統回答。所以在逐位回應上它其實有三種模式。一種是一個、一個、一個、一個輪流問。"},{"start":3944.059,"end":3964.345,"text":"答問答。」但是問答問答我個人是認為可能不太合宜因為他變相的是一種擠問擠答我個人認為那如果說是total假設所有政黨代表跨黨問完可能是20位總統同意回答我認為這也許是可以接受的方式那第三種就是一黨團黨團為單位黨團問完A、B、C三個黨團問完分別"},{"start":3969.786,"end":3970.006,"text":"總統回答。」"},{"start":3988.217,"end":4015.05,"text":"所以這個部分我想是稍後我們在協調的過程裡頭,我們必須來做出回應的。不是喔,對不起喔,你剛剛講這三種模式,第一種跟第三種似乎非常接近,你能不能再解釋清楚一點?好,我現在是預判,不是說可能的方式,就是假設我們,第一個啦,我們剛剛要決定是政黨代表總共多少位,因為那天國民黨的委員向賴世保委員他在做提案報告說明說,"},{"start":4015.59,"end":4015.911,"text":"國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4036.193,"end":4050.113,"text":"阿我說的ABC是在回應剛剛這個民眾黨他的這個方式依序回答是什麼我只是在設想不是我們的主張這不是我們的主張這不是我們的主張我只是在設想他們的想法是什麼謝謝接下來我們請洪孟凱書記長請發言"},{"start":4052.715,"end":4072.028,"text":"感謝主席我們經過了40分鐘的時間我想正是剛剛主席非常明快的裁決就是已經問到是說到底這個A、B、C的三種方案這樣才有實質討論空間我先開宗明義先說過去要求總統來立法院做國情報告"},{"start":4073.274,"end":4096.793,"text":"不管別人怎麼想但至少我們那時要求總統來做國情報告這都是希望能夠創造一個憲政慣例但是沒有很可惜沒有達成可是絕對不是所謂的政治攻防手段政治攻防手段有承認的只有柯建民總召柯建民總召自己承認說當時必須要求即問即答"},{"start":4097.935,"end":4126.795,"text":"二零一二年講說必須急問急答否則沒有意義二零二四年講說急問急答只是政治攻防手段但是不是每個人都跟你想的一樣所以我想這第一開眾民意我必須要講總之要你的想法不能用你的想法套在每一個人身上這是第一個上個禮拜韓國瑜院長召集這個我們的一個這個協商的一個部分的時候有講到一個重點就說我們也來"},{"start":4127.915,"end":4143.176,"text":"好 聊天的一個部分那也有講到一個重點重點就是說那也要請民進黨的代表回去請示一下賴清德總統因為我們禮拜五的時候其實大家在提案說明的時候也都講得非常的"},{"start":4144.117,"end":4170.36,"text":"這個高度而且看得出來國民黨團民眾黨團以及民進黨團其實也都很希望能夠有一個憲政慣例讓大家能夠看到我們111月13號2024年的國會有個新民意新改變新的格局所以既然有這樣的一個高度的話那我不知道說今天是不是民進黨的代表也應該告訴我們賴清德總統準總統他的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":4171.101,"end":4188.073,"text":"尤其剛剛吳斯堯幹事長講說．他先舉了其他國家的例子．說總統來報告完就要離開．那我不知道這是不是賴清德準總統的意思．我希望不是．如果說這是賴清德準總統的意思的話．那顯然他沒有打算要來立法院．"},{"start":4189.324,"end":4216.032,"text":"溝通、交流。」所以民進黨的朋友因為你們是唯一一個可能跟賴清德總統最接近而且最了解他的意思的人也應該要說明一下說賴清德總統的意思是什麼那以及他有沒有期待的一個做法那今天應該要確認的就是時間跟形式嘛5月20號賴清德總統就職之後我們其實最快5月24那個禮拜五的院會就可以來邀請賴清德總統了"},{"start":4218.433,"end":4234.767,"text":"所以今天協商完只要大家有共識5月24號我們就可以來邀請那5月24號邀請之後再由行政院長來做施政報告我想這符合合憲合法合理合憲"},{"start":4236.288,"end":4264.214,"text":"憲法以及我們相關的立院職權行使法包括第16條新任行政院院長應於就職兩週內向立法院提出施政方針之報告換言之在16條裡面就講很清楚兩週內提出施政方針之報告但是這沒有寫明到底他是提他應該提書面報告可是備受質詢的部分其實是我們立院要再召開協商再來討論"},{"start":4265.154,"end":4284.728,"text":"因為新任的行政院長．也要應該要邀請．如同2016年的時候．要重新再做一次施政報告．這個備詢．所以我們也要求就是．新任的卓榮泰院長．他就職兩週之內．送書面報告．那再接受我們113位委員的一個質詢．這是第一個部分"},{"start":4287.89,"end":4304.612,"text":"二、合法．三、合理。為什麼總統的國情報告要先於行政院長的施政報告?我想因為總統他就是第一我們創下一個慣例第二總統他就是主理國家大政方向的人"},{"start":4305.717,"end":4330.735,"text":"外交、國防兩岸民生議題能源政策這幾個大方向的部分當然要由新任總統來國情報告把他的施政理念大方向確認之後講完我們後續才針對行政院長有點像是現在民進黨政府CEO執行長的概念我們才去盯行政院長及他的各部會主管"},{"start":4331.556,"end":4354.514,"text":"他要怎麼做?怎麼達成賴清德總統的目標?如果說今天是先行政院長來施政報告那賴清德總統後來國情報告那賴清德總統要附和行政院長講的話這樣就有點奇怪了嘛行政院長先說了什麼東西之後賴清德總統來是幫他背書還是否定他還是賴清德總統有什麼不同的想法"},{"start":4355.214,"end":4382.031,"text":"所以我想既然我們要做真真正正很持平的我今天提就是因為未來我也期待國民黨有一天執政當國民黨有一天執政的時候我們也會要求國民黨籍的總統先於行政院長來做國情報告之後再由行政院長來做總諮詢我想這樣子合乎全民的期待所以我結論就是我希望接下來大家發言就是針對說我們到底幾個代表來"},{"start":4383.052,"end":4408.78,"text":"然後什麼時間點如果說沒有一的話是不是確定一個時間點那我們可以後續的談論下去那更重要的是這樣的一個進行方式我們一定要依照立法院政黨的席次比例如果沒有辦法一百一十三席委員的話那也盡量要多以政黨的席次比例來分配那來做我們之前有講我們沒有堅持即問即答"},{"start":4409.44,"end":4433.886,"text":"所以現在如果假設沒有急問急答這樣的一個選項一問一答是一個選項一個委員問完之後請總統回答三問一答是一個選項同問同答是一個選項那我也希望能夠聽聽民進黨黨團的朋友詢問過賴清德總統之後他心裡有沒有什麼想法來可以好好的聚焦來討論以上謝謝"},{"start":4436.188,"end":4455.809,"text":"謝謝紅木凱委員發言,接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言,那個黃國昌委員請準備。謝謝院長,那其實啊,你說國民黨的朋友要求總統,新的總統到立法院來做國情報告,這個其實也符合社會的期待。"},{"start":4456.63,"end":4481.563,"text":"那其實這個也沒有分黨派我看好幾位總統的參選人在這一次在競選之前他們也認為當選到立法院來做國情報告這沒有問題所以過去的是沒有民意基礎的總統接受沒有民意基礎的國大代表在那邊問來問去過去都沒有民意基礎"},{"start":4483.161,"end":4509.239,"text":"老國代哪有什麼民意基礎以前的總統是國代選出來的反而是說國代去要求總統來做這個國情報告還合理啊因為他是他的頭家那現在的民意的總統民選的總統他有民意基礎立法院當然也有民意基礎可是偏偏現在的總統這兩個都有民意的都互不相隸屬"},{"start":4511.721,"end":4530.878,"text":"那一天院長好意就把各黨團將召集大家私底下了解一下其實大家也都有一個默契新任的總統就賴清德總統到立法院來做國情報告這個其實對各政黨來講都不是問題那一天講的大家也都不是問題國民黨也很開放民眾黨也很開放大家都很開放我們也大願意促成"},{"start":4533.28,"end":4544.978,"text":"但倒不是說什麽．像火孟凱剛所提到的說．施政報告．國政方針要在前面．否則行政院長又跟他就不一樣．總統到國會來做一個報告．這個是沒有條件的"},{"start":4548.737,"end":4565.481,"text":"也不會說一定行政院長他報告完行政院長在後面再來做報告這個才是總統到立法院來做報告其實他也不是來做報告是立法委員立法院聽取總統國情報告"},{"start":4567.902,"end":4570.104,"text":"這是憲法裡面的一個規定啊所以賴清德要到國會裡面來聽取這個我們來聽取他的國情報告這個他也表達樂意啊那我們立法院三個黨人大家也都樂意啊所以我反而會覺得既然是美式一窗的話"},{"start":4585.259,"end":4591.984,"text":"大家就來一起來成就它。倒不要一定要弄一個說沒有這個總統要先報告完再來在行政院長在行政院長那這樣有這個順序的話那你總統才到國會來讓立法委員聽取你的國情報告我想如果這樣子的話就有點可惜啦大家都願意來促成的話那是不是大家就把它聚焦說好那既然這麼樂意"},{"start":4613.338,"end":4639.711,"text":"這麼樂意大家願意來讓這個新的總統到國會來那你同樣的啊就照程序裡面就是卓榮泰新的院長那本來就要來對我們本院來做一個負責嘛那報告完以後那你總統他要到國會裡面來做報告他來表示歡迎嘛那以這個大家再來做一個討論讓這件事情來做一個成就的話我想那可能會更好一點"},{"start":4641.532,"end":4659.569,"text":"謝謝莊銳雄委員的反對。接下來請黃國昭總召請發言。謝謝院長。我覺得大概邀請賴總統到立法院來進行國情報告這一件事情。大家前面的發言看起來是沒有爭議。"},{"start":4661.089,"end":4678.03,"text":"那可能接下來．如果讓時間比較有意義進行的話．可能我們就聚焦的談．聚焦的談是說．針對於各個黨團．發言的人數．那以及．各個黨團．分配的時間．"},{"start":4680.072,"end":4692.635,"text":"以及進行的方式我覺得透過這樣的方式來討論我認為會比較聚焦一點否則的話其實花很多的時間在講以前的事情那"},{"start":4694.399,"end":4718.735,"text":"互相的在進行一些政治上面的口水跟攻擊我覺得對整件事情的進展意義並不是非常的大因為其實過去發生什麼事情大家在資訊這麼暢通的時代大概稍微查一下大家也都很清楚所以我是建議啦我誠懇的建議是不是針對時間上"},{"start":4721.096,"end":4734.271,"text":"以及各個黨團．大家發言人數的代表．分配的時間．以及立法院本於自己的主體性．立法院希望邀請總統來了以後．"},{"start":4736.013,"end":4765.233,"text":"那本於什麼樣子的方式．那讓總統在聽取完．各個立委．或是各個黨團的立委．所發表完的意見以後．那他希望透過一個什麼樣子的方式．希望邀請我們的總統來．透過什麼樣的方式來進行．比較聚焦的．比較聚焦的來與討．比較聚焦來與討論．那以上．是我針對接下來的進行．我提供的一些建議．"},{"start":4767.014,"end":4786.389,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召發言,接下來有柯建民總召跟林思明委員,還有吳世耀委員。大概現在我濃縮剛才各位幾位委員所共同所發言的內容,大致上就是總統賴清德如果來立法院報告的時間點,這個似乎有一點不一樣。"},{"start":4787.967,"end":4814.597,"text":"有一方說法是希望在行政院長之前．另外一方說法是不用限制他．可以在行政院長施政報告之後．這是一個重點。．第二個就是發言人數．各政黨的代表．再來．就是發言的模式．是用委員、政黨全部．一個大水庫問完之後．賴清德總統統一回答．還是把它切割為政黨．"},{"start":4816.832,"end":4833.674,"text":"三個政黨為主體統一問完之後．賴清德總統來回答這是這個模式最後就是政黨發言人的比例大致上就是這幾個重點我期盼所有的委員能針對這幾個聚焦一下來探討謝謝接下來我們請柯建民總召"},{"start":4837.83,"end":4856.027,"text":"我仔細聆聽了幾位高見。針對於剛才黃國昌所回答的問題。我剛才就依次發言就問你,是,你說依當時的法律,我說是依現法。這一點我們,我們應該只求對決談清楚。"},{"start":4857.233,"end":4858.894,"text":"現在所有的問題重點是在總統來立法院當然他非常希望來"},{"start":4878.482,"end":4901.642,"text":"任何一個人在此時刻當總統．他認為我走進立法院做國情報告．是國家開啟的心願．也是他個人的光榮。這個問題在台灣已經講了幾十年了。但是呢,重點為什麼都沒有辦法談好呢?當然憲法的規定的問題。我們今天要針對,假如核限性的話,什麼都沒有問題。核限性的時候,"},{"start":4904.172,"end":4929.366,"text":"你法律違背憲法何來合法性呢?這很簡單嘛所以我們今天並不是在講口水或是政治鬥爭這是一個非常重要的憲政辯論我希望大家先定位在這裡不是什麼口水憲政辯論因為剛才鴻文凱委員對我有指證嘛當然我應該亦有回答嘛這很清楚嘛他所講的就是說"},{"start":4930.598,"end":4935.866,"text":"我講的是沒有錯。從來這個題目在立法院就是草匪工房那個假議題而已。為什麼?因為"},{"start":4938.513,"end":4964.488,"text":"阿美錢榮文要來,國民黨說急問急答。賴清德總統說錢榮文要來,我們也說急問急答,我就不要來。那也有不同樣態,但是都繞著一個大家知道沒有辦法突破了何先興的問題,沒有辦法急問急答。所以這個時候,立法院沒有辦法進行就是本來就是一個朝野公報,不是我發明,也不是國民黨發明,兩黨都搞過,七民黨也搞過,大家都搞過。"},{"start":4967.53,"end":4990.298,"text":"這個要先談清楚。並不是我去創造出來的。大家在歷史現場都看過這些事情,很容易Google。我常常說很容易Google,那就Google就好,Google談清楚嘛。那侯文凱委員講的話,海長他說我覺得最快,最快5月24號就可以來,有公示的話。"},{"start":4991.67,"end":5007.246,"text":"有共識什麼叫有共識就是說只要有共識的話是要合憲性才有共識否則的話沒有共識你們剛那天副總召你們在上台講話就講得很漂亮"},{"start":5008.027,"end":5034.37,"text":"但是在迴避問題,總統在在院會講的時候,我們決心歡迎賴總統回梁家,話講得不錯。但是接下來去的國民黨代表是誰?是賴世保。賴世保講的言論就回到,我們孟愷當然言論一樣,很可能當天我們在院長室你也講得很漂亮,什麼都沒有條件,但是賴清德總統進來,這是你合意的。"},{"start":5035.291,"end":5051.743,"text":"但是那天在講話的時候我注意聽賴清德代表國民黨上台發言的時候他就講剛才我們來講的幾個三個發言三個就回答一次那五個發言回答一次賴清德還講說過去是這樣從來沒有這樣的"},{"start":5054.705,"end":5081.118,"text":"所以我們今天要把問題講清楚並不是國際從來不可能如此國際在國大時期也不是這樣所以這一點請大家談清楚沒有所謂的撒A盟要撒A的回答五個無門五個回答這是從來這樣也進行過我不知道但是既然在議事堂講這個事情那今天也在講這個事情我也提出挑戰"},{"start":5083.26,"end":5089.942,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告前．邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告前．"},{"start":5106.821,"end":5132.142,"text":"賴清德總統在民進黨行政院長．行政院長當然了解整個賴總統施政理念．總統他當然不清楚．難道賴總統想講．來講給他聽．他來聽會懂嗎．不可能的事情．所以請不要這種邏輯的轉移．自己自己去想去做．你要了解什麼叫施政．一個國家團隊要去施政的時候．是一個非常龐大的機器．"},{"start":5133.677,"end":5141.941,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前："},{"start":5163.516,"end":5172.994,"text":"我們今天要陪到核心事項．大家一道來道去．航空商不講核限性．在講說我們趕快來進行立法院處理性．來計較看怎麼問．"},{"start":5176.693,"end":5201.123,"text":"怎麼問幾個人直接刑事法寫得很清楚立法院早有詳情談這個極其簡單不夠所以今天這是一個先人時刻所以問題焦點在我們要在這裡進行的一個民主要進行的先人體制在這個地方要在國情報告又馬上破壞掉了不可能的嘛所以"},{"start":5202.544,"end":5210.673,"text":"來質疑說總統應該先來。我當然也有不同意見啊。總統指定行政長來對立法院負責。"},{"start":5214.413,"end":5234.342,"text":"這是新任其實規定很清楚那總統先來那這個行政院長這個總統先來這個行政院長至於何地啊?是不是這樣?老大先來他才來多少年來行政院長來立法院被刑看到哪一個總統來過我們民主還不是這樣走過來"},{"start":5235.362,"end":5258.125,"text":"我今天突然說要賴清德總統先來指導期,然後行政院長才能夠來。這是反民主違憲的。我在這裡還是要衷心表達這個,只要我講的不對沒有關係,你們也可以跟我爭辯,都沒有關係。但是我今天要講說,大家要面對問題來說事情。這才是一個核心的東西。"},{"start":5259.215,"end":5277.768,"text":"我以為剛才黃國昌在最後半天舉手有什麼高見要針對何欣欣的回答和何華欣的回答結果他只是在指責說這宗嘉斌硬能你主席沒有同意你怎麼在講話這很奇怪宗嘉斌委員是本黨委員我請問"},{"start":5279.451,"end":5298.952,"text":"本黨委員坐在這裏,立法委員當然是說好這招委,坐在這裏,好像院長您把他趕出去,您主張說他不能,要出去,您說您主張他出去,是不是後面這個人在這邊助理都可以做?難道立委比助理還不能嗎?助理誰進來我們都不知道,後面那一排人我們都不知道是誰。"},{"start":5301.198,"end":5318.147,"text":"所以哪一個主席都要進來?但是政府是什麼?防重匪氣保護人民啊!你以為可以給我一個?助理想進來我不知道嘛!我不知道!那個造業助理還是記者還是人家派來的,沒有人知道啊!這沒有人知道!這你以為可以如此嗎?"},{"start":5319.421,"end":5342.153,"text":"黃國昌委員,你竟然戰神把中央民委員趕出去,這憲政體制是這樣要處理的嗎?請中央院長回答問題好不好?謝謝喔,你不要誤會這個跟黃國昌委員無關,這是我,而且我還特別跟中委員對不起,我說抱歉抱歉,我一直說抱歉,上次跟黃國昌委員我也說抱歉,因為對不起中委員,請諒解一下,等一下下面林世民委員發言"},{"start":5343.254,"end":5365.436,"text":"我要再澄清一下,上次請侯文委員出去說因為我們一開始第一次朝野協商就定下來黨團這個負責人來這裡開會我不是對你不禮貌請你不要誤會我再澄清一遍我實在是剛開始我說抱歉抱歉我不是不能讓你發言我要徵詢其他黨團同意好不好這一點要請你能夠理解也能諒解"},{"start":5366.016,"end":5391.049,"text":"接下來我們請林思明書記長發言。好,謝謝院長。各位委員,我想我又聽到柯總召剛才又在那邊歡帝道講什麼這個總統來國情報告。他的意思好像又說是這個不合憲。其實我想剛才幾位委員的發言講得很清楚。那我們總統這一次來做國情報告,三黨。"},{"start":5392.17,"end":5407.701,"text":"都不認為這是違憲啊。」這怎麼會違憲呢?就是依照我們憲法的規定,就是邀請總統到我們立法院來做國情報告。相關職權行使法,立法院也有這樣的一個職權。所以完全合憲也合法。"},{"start":5408.632,"end":5425.257,"text":"我想他剛才講的重點,一直講的重點,對,所以你要講清楚,因為,所以我想柯總召的意思就是急問急答的部分,總召我在勾起你的回憶一下,你在2012年,你在媒體上講,"},{"start":5433.2,"end":5444.891,"text":"你說針對總統來國情報告．有鑒於國會監督的重要性．他呼籲馬英九總統以急問急答的方式．回答所有的問題．"},{"start":5447.014,"end":5466.974,"text":"所以我想柯總招現在要講說用即問即答是違憲所以我這搞不清楚他的邏輯是在哪裡那我再講剛才那個六熊你剛才也提到了說這個總統也是我們直接民意選出來的立法委員也是直接民意選出來的那為什麼總統要來做國情報告並接受詢答其實"},{"start":5472.759,"end":5494.481,"text":"我想我們現在大家都心知肚明現在中華民國是什麼制度我們的總統他是有權的無責我們行政院長過去要經過立法院同意他的任命但是現在行政院長不用經過立法院的同意所以行政院長某部分來講就等於說是我們總統的幕僚長"},{"start":5496.963,"end":5515.133,"text":"所以我們大家才會希望說總統依照憲法的相關規定來立法院做國情報告對我們的民意我們新民意來做一個負責並接受我們新民意的大家對他的一個相關重大施政方針的一個詢問"},{"start":5516.934,"end":5537.715,"text":"我想賴清德總統他自己也表示很清楚啊我非常樂意啊他選前就這樣講了所以我不曉得今天為什麼還會把什麼這樣是違憲一直把它掛在我們的嘴巴上面所以我希望今天院長我們是希望說大家還是把針對剛剛院長提的這幾個這個到底要用什麼尋答方式人數"},{"start":5539.096,"end":5542.658,"text":"提供新任行政院院長施政方針報告．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":5564.89,"end":5578.84,"text":"他的位階比較大還是行政院長的位階比較大你覺得這符合體制嗎當然是總統先來啊總統先到立法院做國情報告之後我們接下來才請行政院長來嘛"},{"start":5580.021,"end":5593.734,"text":"這完全是符合我們的一個憲政的一個體力啊因為總統才是整個對我們國家的重大方針他要做最後負責的人行政院長只是他的幕僚長當然是總統先來啊這毫無疑問的我不曉得你們還在想什麼還在這個一直講說這個為什麼一定要總統先來"},{"start":5603.484,"end":5630.135,"text":"我們就直覺就感覺就是總統要先來一憲法規律這直覺啊直覺不是這種就是我想人民的民意是這樣是一定要來所以總統啊我以為他是演幕了我現在跟你講說未接啦你們覺得總統後面來對嗎OK謝謝我發言到此結束柯總長麻煩你不要不要按麥克風稍微等一下會讓你發言我再重申一遍我再"},{"start":5636.407,"end":5652.783,"text":"我們現在再講一遍是大概有四到五個主題是真正的就是此時此刻要探討有意義的重點第一個就是總統跟行政院長孰先孰後還是完全尊重總統這是一個可以討論的方向第二我們請總統來的時候每一位委員發言的時間"},{"start":5654.324,"end":5676.386,"text":"例如是五分鐘．有人建議十分鐘．但如果一百一十三個委員派出的代表．如果十分鐘．甚至二十分鐘．適合不適合．還是說為五分鐘．這點請大家就這個主題．發表你的看法。第三．發言人數．我們希望總統來．我們考量他的．"},{"start":5678.735,"end":5701.802,"text":"在這個立法院議場跟大家表述的時候幾位委員能夠把問題問得比較通透一點全面性一點結構性一點等等不管以大家的智慧來判斷發言人數要多少人比較適合再來發言的次序發言的次序是如果以黨團的話哪個黨團先哪個黨團後"},{"start":5707.17,"end":5727.649,"text":"我想我們能不能聚焦在這幾個其他問題我們就不用再探討了因為這第一個問題就很重要了我們尊重賴清德總統你總統認為他要在行政院長之前OK我們尊重也許總統認為行政院長先施政報告他再來我們看各位黨團委員同意不同意"},{"start":5728.783,"end":5747.476,"text":"如果大家也同意能接受只要能促成這件事情每事一樁的話那我想這個我們也可以探討其他的問題情緒性的問題過去的事情我想我們就暫時請大家忍耐一下先不要發表好不好接下來我們請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":5750.486,"end":5762.966,"text":"好謝謝院長我想就條文論條文總統要來立法院進行史上第一次的國情報告那憲法第四條第三項是每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告句號"},{"start":5765.376,"end":5793.709,"text":"所以這是憲法的條文那立法院職權行使法第二章之一裡頭我想請大家再把條文可以再看一下好就是第十五條之二寫得很清楚第一項總統來報告然後是進行什麼主題呢是國家安全大政方針這符合憲法所規範的總統的職權是國家安全兩岸國防外交等等"},{"start":5794.529,"end":5821.646,"text":"所以立委的發問或是提問也不應當是涉及過多的內政包山包海應當回到法制面就是憲法對於總統職權的規範以及職權行使法十五之二國家安全大政方針的這個focus所以這個要很聚焦不是包山包海什麼都問然後再看職權行使法十五之四也寫得很清楚"},{"start":5822.606,"end":5846.669,"text":"就是立法委員與總統國情報告完畢後．德就報告不明了處提出問題．所以為什麼有這樣的一個補充．也就是扣著剛剛第15條之二．總統報告的是國家安全大政方針．然後針對這個主題．如果立委們對於總統報告完畢之後．有所不了解之處．"},{"start":5847.33,"end":5870.183,"text":"提出問題。」所以邏輯是這樣順下來所以他就告訴了我們從憲法的規定到職權行使法的再聲明都是在說明立法委員對於總統即使要提出問題要扣合著國家安全大政方針他不是包山包海所以也不會僭越到行政院院長的職權"},{"start":5871.904,"end":5891.026,"text":"這個是非常清楚的法制面好那現在講到為什麼民主進步黨認為應當先由行政院院長來報告之後再進行總統的國情報告呢我想這裡也要跟幾位委員的說法有個回應我認為大家可能在主跟副有一點顛倒了"},{"start":5891.627,"end":5915.336,"text":"我剛剛為什麼一直在說國家安全大政方針這個是憲法跟職權刑法所規範的因為對立法院負責的是行政院院長所以那個主就是立法院監督的對象就是行政院院長所以我們依我們的議程新任的行政院院長葛奎他組成之後要在兩週內"},{"start":5916.776,"end":5938.836,"text":"到立法院來進行施政總報告。」所以他框定了這個時間這是法所明定的這就很清楚的告訴國人告訴國會我們監督的對象是行政院院長所以行政院院長是主喔反而總統來做國情報告是副喔我們監督的是行政院所以沒有剛剛有國民黨委員說是總統先定調了"},{"start":5943.012,"end":5964.958,"text":"然後再讓他的CEO來進行質詢。」並不是這樣。總統focus的是國家安全大政方針,他跟行政院院長要來報告的內政事項是脫鉤的。所以如果說是先讓總統先來,然後行政院院長再來,某種程度是削弱了行政院院長的職權。"},{"start":5966.698,"end":5983.59,"text":"某種程度是在野黨的委員恐怕認為是凡事是總統說了算然後行政院院長再來做後續的執行面的說明跟報告我想這完全錯置了憲政的權力分立的原則所以立法院的主"},{"start":5985.12,"end":6012.282,"text":"主要的內容先後的主是我們針對行政院院長的監督跟質詢總統來國情報告是負所以前後的順序跟邏輯我這樣子再說明就是有憲法的層次跟法條的層次所以我不得不也講到2015年剛剛大家有提到那個時候馬英九前總統是不是要來國情報告我們再回應一下歷史"},{"start":6013.953,"end":6032.601,"text":"王金平前院長．還有馬英九前總統．他們都說得很清楚．總統不是立法院監督的對象．所以並不存在．也不應當存在急問急答這樣的狀況．馬英九、王金平的口徑一致．"},{"start":6033.982,"end":6056.079,"text":"總統非國會監督的對象．國會監督的對象．是行政院院長．所以我終整我的發言．時間上先由卓榮泰率內閣進行施政總報告．這是優先．因為這是立法院優先主要監督的對象．再進行總統的國情報告．然後他應當是全部的"},{"start":6057.04,"end":6074.949,"text":"報告完之後．我們立定了各黨派的代表．政黨比例代表之後．全部發問完之後．總統一次的來做回應．我的主張完全依附於憲法．以及職權行使法．這樣才是合理可行．在這裡補充跟幾位委員做說明報告．謝謝"},{"start":6076.281,"end":6091.662,"text":"謝謝吳世耀委員這麼清楚的說明那至於很細索的發言的時間每位委員發言的時間我們現在暫時還沒有討論到但是最起碼已經把您心中所認為的行政院院長要優先來立法院做報告"},{"start":6093.664,"end":6116.837,"text":"總統的國情報告可以在之後．我想這個第二個發言的內容不要脫離國家安全這四個大政方針那方式的話是統問統答全部一起問完之後再請賴清德總統統一回答這是您的選擇的方式那政黨比例代表跟發言時間因為這比較細索我們稍後再定現在接下來請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":6119.036,"end":6120.637,"text":"謝謝院長針對院長剛剛所點出來的那些問題我們黨團基本上面的立場是說"},{"start":6129.249,"end":6152.569,"text":"行政院院長要先還是賴清德總統要先這件事情在次序上我們沒有什麼強制的要求基於對總統的尊重他希望行政院院長先來接受總質詢完了以後他要再來這件事情我們事實上覺得"},{"start":6154.13,"end":6180.131,"text":"沒有什麼不可的。」那第二個部分是說針對有關於在立法委員提出來他們的看法跟回應以後總統在回應的部分就是因為我們現在還不知道代表的人數到底有幾個人那台灣民眾黨基本上我們就按照政黨比例代表公平的計算"},{"start":6181.112,"end":6195.685,"text":"我們不會有多的要求就按照政黨比例代表公平的計算我們不會有多的要求但是在整個回應問題的方式上面不管是幾個代表今天有可能是十個人"},{"start":6196.997,"end":6210.732,"text":"有可能是二十個人因為我不知道最後決定的人數到底會多少我還是會提議說基本上最好是底線是一個黨團問完了以後"},{"start":6212.654,"end":6228.79,"text":"那總統來回答因為針對執政黨的立委針對在野黨的立委那總統針對他們所提出來的一些建言對於總統在進行有關於他的國情報告有不明瞭"},{"start":6230.571,"end":6245.378,"text":"提出的問題讓總統來加以回應,我們覺得會比較聚焦,覺得會比較聚焦一點。」這個大概是我們基本上面的一些想法跟一些態度。"},{"start":6246.358,"end":6260.427,"text":"到目前為止我們大概所有的發言都還是按照院長剛剛的指示在進行發言所以有一些政治上面攻防的口水"},{"start":6261.388,"end":6285.359,"text":"我在這邊就不回應了我們基本上面展現出來的善意跟誠意我相信上個禮拜五院長在召集意見交換的時候我們也都赴了就是赴約了院長您也在現場我們大概所展現出來的態度你大概也都聽得非常的清楚"},{"start":6286.739,"end":6302.556,"text":"至於說剛剛科建民總召所提出來的一些指教或者是說跟客觀事實不符合的陳述我先說明一下基於對於院長的尊重"},{"start":6303.297,"end":6330.449,"text":"我在這邊就先不做進一步的回應要不然會讓整件事情開花開花討論到不曉得到什麼樣子的一個程度譬如說剛剛柯建民說我趕宗嘉賓出去請你回去掉露飲袋我什麼時候講過這樣的話院長問各個黨團的代表說我們的態度是如何我說我競表不同意"},{"start":6331.549,"end":6349.716,"text":"我再回應院長的問題我什麼時候敢中加兵委員出去了那這種跟客觀事實不符合的這種抹黑的言語我上次已經跟院長報告過我們願意坐在這邊就事論事討論問題但並不代表說我們遵守規則"},{"start":6351.127,"end":6376.261,"text":"要坐在這邊莫名的接受其他的人不遵守規則在這邊恣意的亂按麥克風進行人聲攻擊我覺得這基本上面的規則我們還是要建立好我再強調一次基於對院長的尊重我以上的發言就針對院長剛剛希望各個黨團代表所表達的意見我很具體的跟院長"},{"start":6377.242,"end":6392.33,"text":"做報告。」那我希望接下來的討論不要再出現我剛剛所講這樣子的狀態那否則等一下接下來的討論恐怕會開花到一個沒有辦法處理的境界以上"},{"start":6394.299,"end":6413.879,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的發言各位跟各位黨團幹部報告現在我們協商進行了一個半小時了那跟大家說明一下下週一五二零新總統和新任的行政院院長就要就任了所以本院支簽法新式法規的規定新任的行政院院長兩週之內要來本院進行施政方針報告"},{"start":6415.14,"end":6441.752,"text":"我們是不是就定本週四下午．來進行新任行政院院長施政方針報告．及本院配合研會相關事宜的協商?這一點要一併跟大家報告如果大家能同意的話．我們就確定星期四下午來協商．行政院院長到院來報告的事情．事宜大概約估我們會發通知還有"},{"start":6443.336,"end":6469.955,"text":"研會的事情我們要一併來討論那我知道大家都很辛苦了那我們等一下休息我特別對王部長還有高副主委非常不好意思因為事實上跟各位執掌都沒有什麼直接的關係大家這樣哭坐在這裡我很不好意思主席啊真的是請等一下大家可以休息一下我們把這個第一個議題討論完各位再可以進來沒有問題的請各位去在外面休息一下好那我們先休息我們也休息一下謝謝"},{"start":7176.874,"end":7179.787,"text":"各位黨團幹部我們總召我們各位總召我們開會了好不好好"},{"start":7305.455,"end":7325.882,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部那我建議好我們就總統先來國情說明還是行政院長先施政報告我們先放在旁邊回頭再討論我們先就立法院職權刑事法第十五條之四規定的四個要素"},{"start":7327.325,"end":7343.051,"text":"發言的時間．發言的人數．發言的順序．以及發言的政黨比例．這四個項目．我們先來提出大家的看法．確定完畢之後．我們再來討論總統跟院長次序的問題．好．現在請柯建民總召發言．院長"},{"start":7344.369,"end":7366.247,"text":"那很遺憾講了這麼久我們沒有直指核心問題來處理核心問題不處理的話所謂的記錄性問題是最簡單的今天這個曹偉強這場比喻發言一天結束怎麼樣那個都是很簡單的事情但是沒有把核心問題講清楚的話這個絕對不可能很難很難進行的"},{"start":7371.711,"end":7399.476,"text":"這位黃昌昌委員講說我做人身攻擊我一直問你說合憲合法你要講清楚我回來做人身攻擊呢?因為是剛才一開始齁鍾佳冰委員在這裡韓院長一度想請他出去你也贊成那胡文煦委員說可以留下來你說你認為他留下來是不適合這個剛才就是如此嘛所以說這哪來人身攻擊呢?這帶他回來看嘛"},{"start":7400.496,"end":7420.042,"text":"你說應該出席,我說那不就待遇落條?把委員趕出議場是待遇落條?我真的剛才還講說,留言之餘在這裡,我們都容忍不到哪一檔,也不知道這什麼規則之餘多少還可以留在這裡。所以你講完以後,黃國昌委員"},{"start":7421.162,"end":7434.574,"text":"請你再倒帶自己講你說他在這裡中央院委員在這裡不合適所以我是針對你這個問題的我今天沒有人有做任何人身攻擊只是我們不希望迴避問題我會問你"},{"start":7437.236,"end":7455.735,"text":"核限性的問題到底是怎麼樣你不答你拋出一個統問統答一檔問完再一檔一檔問完回答再一檔那這個就是內向的請問及答所以今天在這個地方大家都要把問題攤開講清楚"},{"start":7459.192,"end":7459.612,"text":"我暫時講過一次"},{"start":7484.736,"end":7512.591,"text":"總統來行政、來議員做國情報告：各黨包括我自己都主張過你要來就有質問及答就不必來這不是只有我我曾經講過這個因為我反對馬英九馬習會以後要來議員幫他我們幫他背書嘛所以當中拋出說你要來就有質問及答當然就是提出這種這種讓他自然而退嘛這個都是一樣大家都很清楚"},{"start":7513.649,"end":7533.437,"text":"那林森委員還在提這個事情這個我已經解釋很清楚不要再提這個事情他說總統來來這個急問急答那感覺上、直覺上是可以的這不是感覺、直覺問題這是憲法層次的問題不是用感覺的憲法是要去實踐的"},{"start":7535.489,"end":7561.697,"text":"憲法不是敢不敢的用直覺的大法官解釋得很清楚你是協法的所以我們在這裡還是弄清楚大法官解釋得很清楚好幾個大法官解釋我們把問題講清楚你一直要用正常比喻正常比喻是最末端的事情最簡單的事情所以至於隔壁統一權"},{"start":7563.617,"end":7578.822,"text":"這裏面只有我和韓院長兩個有行使過的各位同意權但是1997年以後修憲把它修掉了沒有各位同意權那1997年修憲的時候大家注意那次修憲做很大突破"},{"start":7579.895,"end":7597.912,"text":"也就是說過去,過去總統到國大去國情報告的時候．提起建議以外．還有秀海流域計畫．可以檢討國事提供建議．國大代表可以檢討國事提供建議．"},{"start":7599.033,"end":7617.995,"text":"在1997年把這段刪掉只有總統得來那是97修憲的時候97修憲把葛同學修掉97修憲也把省政府當行政排除機關也修了倒閣不信任案以及集商國會"},{"start":7619.597,"end":7646.77,"text":"幫他把立法院人數修到225因為整議員的關係所以大家從憲法來這裡看到這個事情97年這一句話就沒有所以沒有所謂檢討國事提供建言2015年立法院修憲的時候這一句話也沒有了所以大家很清楚憲法的規律是怎麼樣我們現在要問幾個核心問題是核限性比較重要"},{"start":7649.352,"end":7666.454,"text":"所以所謂一黨問完再一黨回答．再一黨問完再一黨回答．這個就是被向了急問急答．當然這個我們恕難同意．所以剛才休息的時間．我問了．副總統跑掉了．說你們國民黨意思到底是怎麼樣．"},{"start":7667.535,"end":7684.7,"text":"因為文章已經拋出一個善意,也就是說他們不堅持總統先來,好,這個好,好不好。那呢,剛才韓院長也講了,我們禮拜四要協商,行政院長要來,什麼時候要來,然後以及也會的問題,或是議事會的問題。"},{"start":7687.421,"end":7695.612,"text":"代表這一部分應該有公式就是說總統沒有所謂要先來的問題這應該是這樣的公式我這樣解讀過有沒有錯我這個話你禮拜四要寫上什麼新任行政院長什麼時候來這塊什麼時候來"},{"start":7704.924,"end":7721.67,"text":"對,只要照我們在現在的朝野協商這個我們加入這個我們現在實現新意識法就是說總統要來要多少人齁那多少時間齁那這種比喻怎麼樣實現新意識法寫得非常清楚就是說要朝野協商"},{"start":7722.403,"end":7738.174,"text":"那最好有一個月時間所以再怎麼樣最快是6月17號了13號以後的事情所以這事情大家很清楚所以我要回到一個問題就是說當初總統來跟我打開天天說兩話一直要講這個問題"},{"start":7740.416,"end":7756.048,"text":"好,總統行政院長可以先來,當然黃國昌委員講了,國民黨意思是怎麼樣?這要回答啊。這上次,上禮拜五我們在院長室的時候,你們只有堅持說總統要先來嘛,這大家要對焦嘛。"},{"start":7757.27,"end":7774.671,"text":"是不是,那到底這個問題誰要,國民黨現在副總統跑掉,誰要來回答這個問題?這個怎麼,這個先處理完畢嘛,再下來,所謂同問同答。同問同答,一檔問完再回答,一檔問完再回答。啊,副總統回來了。"},{"start":7775.812,"end":7794.884,"text":"剛才休息的時候,我也跟副總統談,大家說明的,你的意思是什麼說得好,他說這樣,三個門要回到一半,要五個門要回到一半,這和賴清德講的不一樣,但是老實講說每一個人都要問,好像總統在這裡接受總之行,這不通啊。"},{"start":7798.509,"end":7804.737,"text":"三個問完三個回答回答一次五個問完五個回答一次每一個人都要問"},{"start":7812.228,"end":7835.421,"text":"問不通的嘛所以我們今天要把問題講清楚韓院長我不希望我不希望就是說我們在肢解上一直很注重肢解趕快來協商什麼什麼人數那個都不重要核心事情憲法層次的問題先解決先回答否則的話再怎麼講也講不下去嘛然後黃國昌委員故意說這問題他不想回答"},{"start":7836.321,"end":7856.953,"text":"他只要講核先性與否他不想回答他只要講一檔問一檔回答啊你就回覆我問你的所謂的核心思想是核先性還是核法性要先講清楚嗎那你一直不回答今天鬧了半天就做直播難道我有對你冷口不禁嗎有做人身攻擊嗎"},{"start":7858.394,"end":7886.287,"text":"大家都很冷靜啊。是不是這樣?那另外,院長我還是要講喔,我們立法院你來當院長以後,現在已經進入一個所謂必須面對的升學期了。因為很多法案都到了要表決期。表決前的朝委協商,朝委協商,比如說,我們三次案,我們三長在這裡講究說,法案的朝委協商,出席人數是怎麼樣?你是不能永遠三個人嗎?"},{"start":7887.908,"end":7909.361,"text":"黨兵,三個黨兵不是萬能的。有法案的協商,也有總之,議事院的協商,也有法律事業院的協商。你要尊重,比如說尊重宗教兵委員出來的,那就是一個很好的案例。他是在這個,這個會議室裡面,司法委員會的召委,他當過國大。"},{"start":7910.402,"end":7934.669,"text":"他主持五次民進黨的支持國會執行期數．被國民黨和網民黨團聯合起來．散會掉五次散會掉．是沒收了委員會這些核心問題沒有所以他今天非常有感而發況且他又是中國國大他跟來講國大經驗我就是講那一段"},{"start":7935.949,"end":7962.138,"text":"後來九一修憲把那張文字刪掉。2005我再去玩我們在修憲的時候也把那張文字刪掉所以大家要面對核心問題現在最重要的問題除了這個問題以外就是說院長這是歷史時刻我今天學過臉書很懇切的跟你講我相信你看過我早上晚上有問題常常說晚上學臉書我今天早上起來學臉書"},{"start":7964.398,"end":7974.102,"text":"臺北鄉以前我把我的想法用將近兩千個字把它寫出來因為我還現在是在一個選來的時候韓院長你這"},{"start":7978.163,"end":8003.874,"text":"我們第一次查理學章．第二次查理學章．我們都面對一個挑戰．也就忽恩齊委員跟黃國昌委員．認為這個委員和查理學章．一個月以後．就要直接進入表決．沒有合意院長的查理學章．立法院找到這樣的話．立法院就倒了．而且你院長要怎麼做．"},{"start":8005.514,"end":8032.709,"text":"你最大功能就是之前行政法第68條裡面講的有充斥爭竿的協議以及朝野黨團協商是立法院院長最有力的炮一年來所有的任院院長從來在這個地方是非常堅持的沒有首位就是說來的表格你講說什麼完全沒有到院會的時候我們黨也可能講說聽你討論直接表決"},{"start":8035.11,"end":8061.025,"text":"這些台灣民主我們經過我們有幸經過整個三大台灣人的犧牲奉獻迎來了國會前面改選我們是歷史的幸運不是我們多偉大我們是歷史的幸運你今天貴為行政院、貴為立法院長我能夠在這裡三十一年見證整個國會的發展這是我們要感恩要惜福的"},{"start":8061.725,"end":8082.39,"text":"所以你要很堅定,我們談論問題,要直指問題的中心,不是在旁邊道,然後講半天。到目前為止,所有的代政事項,所有憲法解釋的情形,沒有人要直接要面對。我甚至都期待,我剛才跟黃昌明講說,我們都期待我們在憲法程序來講嘛。"},{"start":8084.291,"end":8098.86,"text":"怎麼決定今天沒有任何人聲攻擊今天大家都很平和但是這是現場時刻所以我對於我們未來馬上很多血傷的問題會存在"},{"start":8101.417,"end":8130.405,"text":"那我們不管有一些規則．把誠信爭議定好的話．這個立法院執筆的問題．已經在．已經在這個上市的．這個論證的．這個場域了．而且這是國家起危機．所以院長請三思好不好．我們不要一直談幾個幾個問題．核心事項、核先訊先談完．整個新的設計事項談完．我們才有能力往下走嘛"},{"start":8132.607,"end":8159.224,"text":"謝謝柯總召的指教不過我要報告一下我們立法院當過國大代表的還有楊瓊英跟賴世寶那今天國民黨團並沒有請賴世寶、楊瓊英過來因為我相信他們一定會先徵詢其他黨團的同意所以我對宗家病文一點惡意都沒有我只是說我們這樣黨團這樣大家有這個默契有這個規範要不要持續下去你"},{"start":8161.297,"end":8188.589,"text":"柯總統你今天請中加病人回來,你沒有跟我先講,那我不曉得他是怎麼樣,弄得我很尷尬,弄得我很尷尬,上一次另外兩位委員,我也很尷尬,因為我如果讓他們發言的話,磁力一開,就假設像今天,國民黨團直接找楊求英跟賴世保說,他們曾經看過總統在國大有做過國情報告,請他們發言,請問一下,你們做何感想?"},{"start":8189.901,"end":8209.129,"text":"這個就很尷尬了不是立法院只有一個宗家兵祝國國大還有兩個所以我真的是如果有必要三個黨團都同意我們一定可以請委員來這裡列席不管就預算就法律上絕對沒有問題的我再重申一遍如果今天這個典範規則如果被打破"},{"start":8210.616,"end":8231.423,"text":"後續的話在發生什麼狀態我當主席也很難控制這個場面請你一定要理解我絕對不是對你或對鍾嘉斌委員有意見好不好好今天我們等一下等一下等一下我回答你一個問題這典範是已經被打破了過去朝野協商的樣子大家都知道"},{"start":8233.027,"end":8247.855,"text":"所有的提案委員．我們想問一個問題．吳志堯委員上次一直講的．我們審查法案的時候．比如說我們今天審查法定塊．是不是也是經過四個縣市．那四個縣市依然發言臺東．"},{"start":8249.616,"end":8254.399,"text":"賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告前．提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．並"},{"start":8269.401,"end":8297.935,"text":"法案都複雜那 通常有一個法案通常有一個法案只要我比如說很熱門的立法院執行新釋法多少人提案比如說很熱門的這個酒駕有可能五、六十個人提案所以我只是講說立法院從來審查法案就是我提這個朝委已經會來因為朝委要到委員會做報告"},{"start":8298.675,"end":8315.927,"text":"你把他讓在旁邊去．他審完以後．他到院會的時候報告．做報告．他不知道我們這一組要怎麼樣．各黨都有招來要不要來．各黨的．比如衛福委員．衛福委員要不要派代表來．多少人數．人數可以談．"},{"start":8317.408,"end":8333.417,"text":"國防...是不是要找國防委員會﹖否則的話﹖但是當初沒有去過﹖所以我們這個問題要重新好好看﹖現在我們的協商就不是在法條協商﹖那是不是尊重一下主席的發言時間好不好﹖這現在的不是法條協商﹖現在是針對議案、國情報告協商﹖不是,你已經講完了﹖現在是您違規按麥克風﹖"},{"start":8344.003,"end":8348.764,"text":"我還沒講完我從來還沒按掉你剛剛主席已經講了現在請洪孟凱議員發言你剛剛已經多用了十幾分鐘的時間你多用了十幾分鐘的時間你以為在草野上有什麼多用?所以你讓我等一下那個問題我們可以另外來我現在在講的就是核心事項"},{"start":8370.47,"end":8381.678,"text":"那這是大家要面對,如果各位黨都同意的話,我們可以同意的分析。好,柯總統,我們時間就這樣,你先休息一下。我們現在請洪孟楷委員發言,吳斯遠委員、郭昌偉委員也請準備。好,請洪孟楷委員發言。謝謝主席。"},{"start":8389.463,"end":8411.469,"text":"主席我說實在話我今天到現在一個小時又五十分鐘過去我看不懂今天各黨團的山長出來到底是想要促成總統第一次的憲政史的首例還是想要打破還是想要惡意杯葛讓賴清德總統不要來立法院因為我覺得莫名其妙是當有"},{"start":8412.609,"end":8431.784,"text":"協商代表發言的時候用二分之一的時間在前提回顧在講過去明明已經主席講了財事的事情他就是要重複講拜託不要那麼玻璃心好不好如果說什麼事情都要那麼玻璃心花一半的時間來講自己的事情然後玻璃心"},{"start":8433.226,"end":8442.679,"text":"誰不要對號入座。」我到目前為止沒有指名道姓不要對號入座那還有更重要的事情如果說真的有什麼事情要表達的話各自回各自黨團開記者會好嗎"},{"start":8445.035,"end":8469.543,"text":"我們講不客氣的記者會開不夠嗎各自每天早上禮拜六禮拜天都在受媒體聯訪了這樣還不夠還要來協商的時間今天主席定了四個小時兩點到六點但我們要討論是三個重大案件但我們現在連第一個案件都還沒有突破我覺得非常可惜如果說是各黨團想要惡意杯葛不讓賴清德總統創下這個憲政首例的話我覺得這是全民的"},{"start":8473.656,"end":8492.631,"text":"全民的遺憾。」上禮拜五就已經請民進黨團三長先回去請示賴總統他到底他的內線想法是什麼那我不知道現在民進黨團他們提出來是說一定要行政院長先來報告是民進黨團的意思還是賴清德總統的意思"},{"start":8494.933,"end":8517.095,"text":"是賴清德總統覺得是說先讓卓榮泰行政院長上台報告他才願意來還是說其實賴清德總統也沒有這樣子的預設立場因為創下憲政首例比什麼都重要不是嗎那我們也希望因為這個是中華民國建國一百一十三年以來第一次總統踏上立法院所以他有一個很制高點"},{"start":8517.836,"end":8542.309,"text":"大家也都在上禮拜的時候發言的時候也都講得慷慨激昂嗎?所以我們才想是說如果五二零賴清德總統就職之後五二四或者是說在下一個禮拜馬上就能夠安排的話我覺得這對於全國國人都會覺得是說某種程度上朝野和解某種程度上總統對立法院負責某種程度上總統直接面對兩千三百五十萬人直接民意這不是很好嗎?"},{"start":8543.63,"end":8566.895,"text":"那你現在惡意的拖延說一定要行政院長報告完之後才賴清德總統那你是想要成局還是想要破局我就直接問你們是想要成局還是想要破局那再來如果說真的非賴清德總統看什麼時候你來定一個時間假設賴清德總統認為524不行530不行6月5號不行"},{"start":8570.97,"end":8599.382,"text":"那六月十號行不行就是每一個禮拜五看哪一個時間點賴清德總統覺得可以我們先確認下來之後之後的下一個禮拜最後的下一個院會行政院長來總諮詢報告這可能也是我們會禮拜四的時候提出來說如果要協商這個總諮詢的話我們就會這樣堅持那看是賴清德總統他總不會說一個月內他都不願意想要來立法院做國情報告吧"},{"start":8600.452,"end":8610.969,"text":"好那最後怎麼樣的進行方式我想我們國民黨團真的已經釋出很大的善意之前有媒體講說我們堅持極問極答我們沒有堅持極問極答"},{"start":8613.717,"end":8642.102,"text":"到目前為止,憲法規定以及立院職權刑事法規定,我們沒有堅持急問急答。急問急答是什麼意思?就像現在的質詢一樣。立法委員麥克風開著,行政院長麥克風開著,互相問答。這叫急問急答。我們沒有堅持這樣的一個模式。我們也認為只要總統能願意來到立法院做國情報告的話,我們尊重總統的高度。所以,我們講是不是能夠做退而求其次,所謂統問統答的方式。"},{"start":8643.174,"end":8662.744,"text":"人數請依照我們的立院政黨比例來去做一個分派看是十分之一的立委人數還是五分之一的立委人數來去做然後依照政黨比例來推派代表時間一個人假設五分鐘或七分鐘或十分鐘"},{"start":8664.136,"end":8679.234,"text":"行事我認為既然可以統問統答我們希望聽到的是真切的答案也就是總統的高度能夠回答立法委員在這邊絕對不會無地放矢我想大家都在看所以"},{"start":8679.774,"end":8702.366,"text":"吳斯堯幹事長剛剛有提到所謂的國家方針報告那是總統要去注意他的國家方針報告國家安全方針國家大政方針那一樣立法委員提出的問題也一定會針對中華民國外交國防兩岸民生、能源、經濟等重大方向來救教賴清德總統"},{"start":8703.803,"end":8719.119,"text":"只是既然賴清德總統要回答的話我們還是期待就說至少不要全部問完他一次綜合回答難免掛一漏萬再者很多時候可能就會如同外界講了他會選擇性的回答"},{"start":8720.154,"end":8742.764,"text":"因此我們當然希望是賴清德總統能夠面對民意但是在給予一定高度尊重的情況下能夠分階段回答所以看是三位問完總統能夠回答一次還是五位問完總統能夠回答一次來針對問題來回答那我們甚至都還沒有講到總統回答要不要限制時間"},{"start":8745.171,"end":8765.513,"text":"是尊重總統如果總統願意講不限制時間這可能是一個選項或是總統一樣跟立法委員詢問問題的時候一個人有五分鐘七分鐘的限制總統回答也有限制時間這也是一個選項我覺得這個可以討論要成舉我拜託大家拿出誠意討論這一些真的"},{"start":8766.909,"end":8791.524,"text":"去做的事情而不是現在在打高空還在解釋還在說明我沒有那個意思我有那個意思那個回去黨團記者會你們要怎麼開你們要怎麼開直播你們家的事情但是協商時候我真的拜託大家我們聚焦在這些上面那我已經很有誠意把我們的一些方法想法都提出來我也拜託我們其他兩個黨團的代表能夠就這樣的部分來去做討論謝謝"},{"start":8792.685,"end":8795.068,"text":"好,謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言。接下來請吳思耀委員發言。黃國昌總召請,請準備。"},{"start":8798.554,"end":8822.521,"text":"為什麼民進黨團認為我們要在整個憲政脈絡精神和線性先去釐清清楚其實就剛剛我接著洪孟凱書記長所說的其實我真真切切聽到的是可能在洪委員的思考或是國民黨團的思考就已經把總統到立法院的國情報告定調為立委可以來質詢總統"},{"start":8825.227,"end":8848.475,"text":"剛剛的整個發言的脈絡譬如說紅委員說到不要讓總統選擇性回答所以呢要分階段來處理也就是問完然後答一次然後問一階段再答一次其實如果以紅委員剛剛所說的就坐實了國民黨團可能設想的就是總統來到國會是接受立法委員的詢答"},{"start":8849.395,"end":8872.447,"text":"就照著這個邏輯就是我們要說的憲法的精神不是這樣規定的憲法的精神是總統基於尊重國會他願意來這裡做國情報告而國情報告是就國家安全大政方針絕對不是如剛剛洪委員所說的我覺得這個辯論這個這樣子交換意見很清楚因為從剛剛洪委員的的說法"},{"start":8873.687,"end":8893.155,"text":"是足以可以證明您的想法跟我的想法是不一樣的那你的想法跟我的想法一不一樣其實也沒那麼重要重點是憲法所賦予的權限是什麼?憲法所賦予的權限是總統來做報告然後就國家安全大戰發生之後他報告完"},{"start":8894.435,"end":8907.89,"text":"然後如果有立委這個是職權行事法在衍生出來的如果有立委就總統所報告的主題那個主題叫做國家安全大政方針有不明瞭之處委員可以提出問題"},{"start":8909.292,"end":8925.715,"text":"然後總統是只有最後的回應所以總統他當然可以依他認為委員所問的主題是不是他報告的內容也就是總統的憲法所賦予的職權國家安全相涉的事項來進行回答"},{"start":8926.856,"end":8943.946,"text":"那所以我也不好意思真的是要拿出如果依據核限性來講兩個黨團所提的這個院會的提案裡面所要求總統來進行的內容說明其實都溢出了憲法所授權的內容兩個黨團所提出來的這些內容請總統針對ABCDEFG"},{"start":8949.629,"end":8975.757,"text":"之類的主題其實都真的都是溢出了國家安全大戰方針這裡頭你們所列出來的從各種才化法從物價起漲從這個淨零排放產業轉型健保財務穩定保障民眾就醫這些都是行政院長的職權不是總統要來回答立法委員的內容"},{"start":8977.978,"end":8996.484,"text":"所以這個辯論．這個論證是很清楚的。我也認為在這裡對話很有意義。這是史上第一次總統來到國會進行國情報告和線性的認知跟理解,我們一定要先確立。絕對不是立委這麼大說,立委我們說好朝野協商功課就怎麼樣就怎麼樣。"},{"start":8997.904,"end":8998.485,"text":"提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9019.026,"end":9037.292,"text":"回到核限性．我再次說我覺得非常遺憾．當然今天鍾嘉斌委員不是我們邀請的．因為他剛剛來我也有點訝異．我有跟他說這個是不是能夠發言．我沒有確認．如果剛剛所說的楊瓊英委員．賴世保委員．他們願意來這裡．我相信我們會有這樣子的"},{"start":9038.352,"end":9060.135,"text":"亞亮願意聽聽他們分享過去國民大會幾次修憲然後對於總統從國民大會行使投票總統到民選的這個過渡時段整個制度的延伸是什麼演繹是什麼落成今天的憲法文字增修條文第四條第三項如果說賴氏堡委員楊瓊怡委員今天來到現場"},{"start":9061.536,"end":9077.85,"text":"我想我們民進黨團是非常同意．可以讓他坐在這裡．分享他們過去的經驗．這對於我們對於國情報告的形現．合線性的認知大有幫助．所以我很謝謝剛剛傅昆吉總商．他一開始說他並不反對．宗教兵委員可以發表意見"},{"start":9079.025,"end":9100.091,"text":"那只是民眾黨的朋友認為,好不宜,好。但我還是覺得這是有點可惜的事,因為這有助於釐清合憲性。所以合憲性是什麼,我們絕對需要在這裡釐清清楚。至於安排哪一天,我非常同意院長,就是我們釐定了下週四的協商,我們把行政院院長一直使用行事法兩週內要來的時間先訂好。"},{"start":9102.071,"end":9126.467,"text":"那總統的時間就在訂好的時間之後去談新安排這是OK的因為我們監督的對象叫做行政院長依照我們的議事日程就應當先訂定藉其交換的時候新任閣魁要來施政報告他的時間要落在法定的時間內這個絕對是我們要定的這個是優先的所以主跟父不能前後倒置"},{"start":9126.923,"end":9151.609,"text":"我再一次回到主跟副立法院監督的叫做行政院長的這個部分我再多花一點時間來論述我的想法選舉的時候大學生找座談都願意去然後結果現在選上當選到總統之後然後結果就講說結果就講說要合憲性我們真的覺得國人都看得清楚啦"},{"start":9154.331,"end":9155.974,"text":"接下來請黃國昭總召發言．張瑞雄委員請準備"},{"start":9168.441,"end":9184.755,"text":"謝謝院長。就剛剛依照院長的裁示針對有關於目前立法院職權刑事法第15條之事就發言的時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項請我們台灣民眾黨黨團發表意見"},{"start":9188.099,"end":9213.562,"text":"其實我剛剛在發言的時候某個程度上我其實剛剛院長追尋的事項我們都已經具體的表明我再清楚的說明一次整個發言的時間、人數、順序等等我們都願意遵照就是院長只要政黨比例之間彼此公平我們不會有太多"},{"start":9214.723,"end":9241.63,"text":"太多其他強烈的要求。」那只不過說在上一次發言的時候我曾經跟院長報告就是我們如果這個黨團協商要能夠聚焦的話就按照院長才是需要大家協商的事項來進行協商嘛因為這是剛剛院長所提依照現行法的規定我們要針對剛剛所說的"},{"start":9245.044,"end":9268.06,"text":"發言的時間、人數、順序．還有政黨比例的事項．我們現在來協商嗎?那只不過說剛剛很遺憾的就聽了民主進步黨黨團柯建民總召他剛剛所發言的範圍其實顯然的溢出了您剛剛指示要協商的範圍大概從1997年的修憲講到"},{"start":9273.237,"end":9299.437,"text":"目前的草野協商到底要有什麼人才能夠參與各式各樣不是我們現在在協商的事項全部搬到檯面上面來說甚至指名道姓的說我迴避問題讓我覺得非常的困惑我們現在是在黨團協商各黨團表示意見還是正在進行政黨的憲政辯論"},{"start":9301.308,"end":9322.44,"text":"我不客氣的說啊有合憲沒有合憲恐怕也不是在座的幾位說了就算了嘛你主張違憲你有你的看法我不同意我尊重事情就這麼簡單那你如果說真的要講到柯建民當初在講"},{"start":9323.792,"end":9340.398,"text":"急問急答。」他剛剛一直在解釋說那是馬席會他就是不要讓馬英九來我看了一下時間很奇怪當初柯建民跟潘孟安就我們即將要就任總統府秘書長的潘孟安"},{"start":9341.784,"end":9353.967,"text":"說要提問其他的那場記者會是在2012年4月10號所...4月9號或4月10號所召開的記者會因為我看潘孟安他臉書的貼文是2012年4月10號嘛問題是馬習會是2015年11月7號發生的"},{"start":9362.098,"end":9384.443,"text":"所以是2012年4月9號還是10號的潘孟安加上柯建民先坐著時光機預知到三年多以後會發生這樣子的馬戲會所以要提前三年多用所謂的急問急答式政治攻防就是沒有要讓馬英九來當作藉口"},{"start":9385.855,"end":9405.174,"text":"我覺得這個這已經不是邏輯錯案的問題這個是根本就背離了歷史客觀事實的問題那我必須要再跟院長報告一次就如同我一開始前一次發言跟您說明的一樣我們希望能夠遵守"},{"start":9406.685,"end":9433.348,"text":"擬立下來的一些規則以及發言的範圍但是這個規則不要好像只有少數的人要遵守用在柯建民身上就不適用那如果是這樣子的話我說啦接下來討論就會開花就會開花但我必須要為什麼我要強調這一點是開花的責任不在我們身上"},{"start":9434.5,"end":9443.388,"text":"那最後一點我們依照目前憲法徵修條文以及立法院職權新釋法我們提出我們的提案出來嘛"},{"start":9444.432,"end":9473.133,"text":"如果有黨團認為說這是所謂的違憲或者是什麼樣我們作為一個憲政民主國家是不是違憲恐怕也不是誰說了就算嘛那你就依照我們現在憲政民主的機制該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛立法院做了決議了以後那如果總統他認為違反憲法至愛難行那總統有總統自己的憲政手段可以去做處理嘛"},{"start":9474.134,"end":9500.793,"text":"所以回到現在所癥結的是我們所提出來的提案希望邀請賴清德總統到立法院就國家大政方針進行國情報告那我們就依照立法院職權行使法目前第15條之4需要協商的事項我們好好的來進行協商那協商的部分有共識的"},{"start":9501.934,"end":9516.322,"text":"就有共識。沒有共識也沒有辦法因為坐在這邊就不可能強求有共識嘛但我們最起碼是盡心盡力坐在這邊把該協商把該討論的事情好好討論出來"},{"start":9517.763,"end":9542.737,"text":"不要再做一些超越範圍太久以前要從回顧台灣的民主發展史每一個人在這個民主發展史裡面所曾經做過的事情談到自己的臉書發言談到草野協商的時候到底誰可以來誰不可以來我覺得啦我們現在在進行的草野協商每一個人的發言真的"},{"start":9544.606,"end":9555.157,"text":"關心的公民大家都會看。」那所以我也是很懇切的跟院長表達我們的看法就有關於十五條之事"},{"start":9556.514,"end":9584.761,"text":"發言的時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項,我們就按照公平的原則來予以處理,台灣民眾黨不會強求。」那如果說我們現在針對立法院職權行使法15條知識所在進行的協商,有人說是知為莫解的事情,根本不需要討論,那也不需要協商,那我們就在這邊一直坐著,全部都在繞圈子嘛。"},{"start":9585.621,"end":9610.943,"text":"科建民繼續坐在對面主張指責中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨所提出來的東西是違憲那我就坐在這邊負責任的跟你講我認為沒有違憲嘛那接下來的關鍵點是什麼接下來的關鍵點就變成是是不是違憲恐怕不是你科建民說了算也不是我黃國昌說了算我們的憲政民主體制要怎麼處理就怎麼處理"},{"start":9613.874,"end":9633.139,"text":"以上是我們的看法,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌總召的發言。接下來請莊瑞雄幹事長發言,傅坤吉總召請主持。謝謝院長。我想我們按照我們的立法委員職權行使法的規定就是說,我們立法院本來就得聽取總統的一個報告。"},{"start":9636.541,"end":9650.437,"text":"我們可以聽取總統到立法院這樣的報告．代表說發動權還是在於我們立法院．也不是總統想來．他就可以自己說我要到立法院來．"},{"start":9651.684,"end":9666.401,"text":"那第二個就是說總統就他的質詢相關的國家大政的方針得知請立法院同意以後來他想來也要經過立法院的一個同意所以很顯然的也就不要去扯什麼新民意舊民意兩個都有民意"},{"start":9668.343,"end":9691.094,"text":"只是兩個人的民意基礎不一樣總統的民意也不會輸給立法委員總統是這樣子幾個政黨幾個人選出來的立法委員當然民意也很深厚但問題就是說確實按照憲法的一個規定總統確實不是立法委員監督的一個對象立法委員對總統對憲政機關愛怎麼罵當然怎麼罵都可以但是重點來了重點就是說"},{"start":9696.457,"end":9708.31,"text":"那我們今天我看民眾黨跟國民黨對於總統到立法院來做報告這件事啊民眾黨的態度就變開放了那是不是院長就是說第一個"},{"start":9710.858,"end":9736.724,"text":"憲法的規定還有我們禮拜五那天大家的講法是說總統要到立法院來三黨都表達歡迎第一個嘛就是要來這件事情就沒話講了嘛那只是說來了以後啦就變成說是這個人數到底是一個政黨是幾個順序民眾黨他也沒有意見了嘛這他也都沒有意見啦時間人家他也沒意見啦"},{"start":9738.597,"end":9741.192,"text":"就看看國民黨我看我就不曉得國民黨你再提出來我就聽不懂了"},{"start":9744.589,"end":9771.471,"text":"所以大家可以聚焦嘛行政院長是不管你立法院同不同意行政院都必須要來的嘛這本來就必須要來的嘛所以他這個絕對不會是什麼總統到立法院來報告的一個任何的一個條件嘛所以我們把他分開啦行政院長不管如果你總一定要來只是說時間我們立法院怎麼樣來做大家朝野協商來做一個決定這樣子而已嘛那所以呢以這把這樣子"},{"start":9772.301,"end":9773.422,"text":"邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告。"},{"start":9801.842,"end":9822.501,"text":"謝謝院長這本席第一次發言了從提案說明以後啊院長開放給大家針對這個賴總統在大選前表達希望如果有機會他當選後能夠到我會來做國情報告"},{"start":9827.06,"end":9854.864,"text":"依照我們的自決行事法．也依照憲法徵求條文的這個第四條第三項我想我們自決行事法已經寫得很清楚那院長剛剛也不斷在聚焦就是到底我們發言有多少時間多少人數我們的順序是怎麼樣那政黨比例是如何"},{"start":9856.192,"end":9880.202,"text":"我想剛剛韓院長針對這個問題已經請教各政黨請教了算起來我們從兩點講到現在兩個小時我想我們再回到重點全國國人對肥皂局已經大家都沒有興趣了現在應該是要把我們接受人民的託付而且賴總統當選人"},{"start":9882.819,"end":9903.188,"text":"在賴候選人的時候．就表示他有機會當選．要到立法院來做國情報告。」我想國民黨團．立場非常清楚。我們會友善．大格局．然後也歡迎賴總統到立法院來做國情報告。"},{"start":9904.611,"end":9927.244,"text":"人數的方面我要特別向民眾黨的這個黨團山長來表示敬意他們也表示說對於啊這個人數的部分啊依照政黨比例他們也沒有意見所以我想今天不管是國民黨也好民眾黨也好都已經再三再三表示高度的善意"},{"start":9928.909,"end":9956.734,"text":"我們不曉得為什麼這兩個小時還在雲地打轉所以也要拜託院長我們可能在草擬協商上我們要特別能夠盡快的因為全國國人都在網路上在看我們光一個人數然後什麼時間討論兩個小時我想真的韓院長你真的很有耐心我們深表敬佩"},{"start":9958.014,"end":9986.687,"text":"不過我們格局可能沒有這麼大在這裡做到實在是從提案說明完到現在第一個階段還沒有進行所以到底我們的人數、時間因為過去在院會質詢的時候我們不要說對院長的質詢是30分鐘那如果說如果說就專題專案的部分專案的部分專案報告的部分"},{"start":9987.83,"end":9988.795,"text":"大概一個委員室15分鐘"},{"start":9991.346,"end":10018.532,"text":"那過去有七七一還是要九九二七七一還是九九二我這邊因為我們上個禮拜五草以喜在院長室的我們的善意協商就講得很清楚大家希望說這個民進黨團主要幹部能先請教一下賴總統到底他希望什麼樣的方式來進行"},{"start":10021.092,"end":10024.033,"text":"邀請國民黨黨團提議．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":10045.626,"end":10045.786,"text":"主席。﹗"},{"start":10061.249,"end":10066.091,"text":"我還是要在這裡講一下我們不要再把過去的事情再持續地打轉"},{"start":10088.325,"end":10115.02,"text":"因為我想這個過去民進黨團在2012年的4月9號已經講得很清楚了強烈要求即問即答那如果今天民進黨執政以後認為即問即答是在野的時候的一個意思表達執政以後就不同意這樣的表達同樣的民進黨有做不同樣的位置的時候就不同樣的看法"},{"start":10116.004,"end":10134.622,"text":"當然我們也尊重啦但是總要表達一下到底民進黨現在的立場是什麼看法是什麼賴總統當選人他本身的意願又是如何因為上個禮拜我們做三一溝通的時候就在上面請這個民進黨黨團幹部"},{"start":10139.176,"end":10163.562,"text":"問一下賴總統的看法是什麼．我們才能夠就他的看法．來做實質的討論跟協商。但是到今天為止．完全沒有聽到這個問題。亦或是也可以先不要講賴總統想什麼．把賴總統想什麼變成你們黨團的立場．現在直接講出來也可以。但是如果．我們實在是都沒有進度的話．不曉得說．"},{"start":10165.126,"end":10185.986,"text":"這樣的協商到底有什麼樣的實質意義?全國的國人都在看大家要不要寫歷史今天寫完歷史以後像今天我們黨團有在講這個事情到底寫了歷史以後賴總統是以總統的高度"},{"start":10189.886,"end":10207.557,"text":"我們這裡每一位都是一百一至三分之一的人我們是見證的人我們只是見證而已當然院長高度是不一樣但是其他的立委都是一百一至三分之一今天已經這麼大一個事情要讓賴總統能夠寫下歷史見證歷史"},{"start":10214.417,"end":10241.593,"text":"我現在蠻懷疑的到底民進黨團今天是要讓賴總統來還是不希望賴總統來我到現在還聽不懂啊還是聽不懂啊到底是來搭台的還是來砸場的我到現在沒有聽懂所以啊今天到底是很奇怪我們花了這麼多時間只要兩個多小時到底要講什麼所以我這裡真的是要請院長明示吼好不好謝謝"},{"start":10243.634,"end":10271.165,"text":"呃,柯總統稍微等一下好不好,讓我嘗試性的,麻煩你稍微等一下好嗎?因為你再讓我嘗試性具體的提出來,綜合各三個黨團的看法,大家聽聽看,這個能不能接受。那麼,我們現在開始對於總統如果到院,國情報告,我們暫定每一個委員五分鐘時間。大家有意見回頭可以討論沒問題。第二,"},{"start":10271.923,"end":10294.577,"text":"我們政黨比例代表,九九二。第三,我們依序,臺灣民眾黨、民主進步黨、國民黨,這個都可以調整,完全沒有問題。只是,我們總是把這幾個問題清清楚楚把它講出來,拋磚引玉。"},{"start":10296.633,"end":10325.198,"text":"那如果各位委員、各位黨團幹部．對我所提出來的有意見．請針對我剛剛所提的這四項．直接做出說明．其他拜託大家就不要再提了．謝謝。請柯建民總召。院長。我不知道我今天講的所核心問題．你有沒有在思考。剛才副總長講的．假裝笑得很可愛。"},{"start":10326.601,"end":10345.07,"text":"那講了半天,我不知道他們到底知道自己在講什麼。包括黃昌委員也是一樣。我們今天講總統來做國情報告,那是一個,你講九九二,五分鐘,那都是小事,那小事。但是他要來的時候,這個都是小事。"},{"start":10347.035,"end":10359.069,"text":"從九九二五分鐘,那時候小事。重點他來是要急問急答還是要要要要依照憲法到最後他得同意回答當然這是一個問題重點在這個地方"},{"start":10362.012,"end":10385.903,"text":"怎麼一直大家迴避問題．然後一直說我們是來找雜猜猜猜的．我們來回應就是說．你回去交給開聯署就好．這是一個憲政問題的台灣核心元素．那黃昌偉現在趕快跑掉．我不想是缺席的審判他．但是呢我只能留下一個紀錄．我要對各位所言的做一些看法．這是很簡單的問題．"},{"start":10387.384,"end":10412.719,"text":"高屋素雅委員以及專利雄委員都講的就是憲法程式的問題。我們現在是在講憲法,不是說總統來,什麼人來,一黨多少人。來的時候他是要怎麼樣進行他的國情報告,這個才重要。我們可以做違憲性的解釋嗎?黃國昌委員既然講說憲法合憲違憲是我的看法,"},{"start":10413.539,"end":10436.656,"text":"他認為沒有,沒有。這個我認為,這個非常嚴重。怎麼這麼簡單?我們幾個講很簡單的陳述。既然故意略過,故意不聽。是不是他是因為讀英美法系的關係,我不清楚。還是他到底是依照正在對立場上。"},{"start":10439.978,"end":10458.319,"text":"尤其剛才傅文綺委員以及黃國昌委員所談的過去我主張總統來做國情報告2012年10月大家知道嗎我一開始就講過我們曾經要求要求幾問幾答"},{"start":10459.6,"end":10475.146,"text":"但是都知道這個沒有辦法進行。我不是只有2015那一次。皇上故意把他嫁接起來說我2012就知道2015的事情。2012、4月份那時候不是只有我們民運黨黨團"},{"start":10478.309,"end":10500.609,"text":"臺灣黨黨團．還有親黨黨團李同豪共同開記者會針對什麼．針對油電商長．針對收入金．針對禽流感．以及油價上漲的問題．還有這個新日健保繳費不公平另外有一個比較爭議性的就是一國兩區是憲政解釋"},{"start":10503.051,"end":10516.662,"text":"這個是當初的在野黨聯合開計的會三個黨聯合開計的會當然這個是當時針對那時候的情況大家做政治攻防我承認這本來就是這一回事情在野黨挑戰執政黨執政黨挑...在野黨挑戰執政黨"},{"start":10522.106,"end":10544.725,"text":"這是天經地義即便我們今天實際上被挑戰也是天經地義所以不要隱逸失意所以我2015的我剛才講20152015是因為我有講過所以那時候卡在什麼東西卡在核先性的問題這大家心裡很清楚等一下我並不是要到簽字"},{"start":10545.345,"end":10545.665,"text":"公決案。．邀請公決案。"},{"start":10557.929,"end":10574.104,"text":"這個大格局,這個是違憲的嘛。彭麥凱你也這樣主張,胡文杰也這樣主張,賴斯堡也這樣主張,這個是徹底違憲的部分。這是什麼大格局?話講得飄揚,但是理論根本沒有辦法進行啊。所以我今天要大家面對問題來回答問題。"},{"start":10577.569,"end":10592.311,"text":"憲法已經修過了,把後門那一段,也就是說1997年把後門那一段可以檢討國事提供建議那一段刪掉了。2005年我們也把它刪掉了。"},{"start":10593.092,"end":10619.826,"text":"所以就沒有所謂的回答的問題所以希望大家看看現場很簡單所以院長我知道你已經跟我協調我也不好意思啦我是講問題啦你手機問題你剛才講的那個都小事那沒有問題那992那個時候五分鐘那這個都小事重點一分多來怎麼樣來進行這個國情報告是要怎麼回答"},{"start":10620.606,"end":10645.629,"text":"不是統一統大,那個當然違憲,違憲不能講半天你整個法醫公會被叫來,那根本沒好那個事情嘛。所以,上次就講說請問賴總統,大家是禮貌性這樣講,我心裡知道這個答案就是要在核心性底下嘛。所以,我想你旁邊那個周恩來啊,秘書長應該很強,可以稍微回答我想聽你的告見好不好?"},{"start":10647.779,"end":10656.945,"text":"謝謝你喔那關於這個五分鐘每個委員您有沒有意見?你是完全同意嗎?第二個就是政黨比例992"},{"start":10659.017,"end":10672.566,"text":"這不是小事喔這一定要三個黨團都同意喔我們已經花了一百五十分鐘討論這個幾個小結論這個幾個結論你怎麼會是小事勒院長我講樸信息的問題來問執行局長還統一統黨那個才是大事問題等一下會討論嘛我們先把大家能達成共識我先提出來嘛再來依序民眾黨、民進黨、國民黨、政黨的次序"},{"start":10689.554,"end":10715.895,"text":"有沒有意見．請就這幾個。吳思耀委員,你要再,幹事長你再發言,麻煩就直接針對這個好不好,謝謝。我真的覺得前提性的問題沒有釐清的話,直接跳入誰幾分鐘幾分鐘,那真的是技術性的問題啦。容我,容我,容我要說"},{"start":10717.56,"end":10728.356,"text":"因為剛剛有委員提到2012跟2015的時間點這個是直播不是開玩笑的這是直播不是開玩笑的我就針對2012年總統府"},{"start":10733.719,"end":10755.809,"text":"馬英九總統．針對要不要來立法院．接受國情報告．跟綜合問答的這個事情．府方的正式說法．容我把2012年4月26號．總統府的發言人范江泰基的說法．我必須在這裡還原．因為剛剛有委員提到．不容抹搖歷史"},{"start":10758.048,"end":10778.977,"text":"總統府范江泰基發言人．代表馬英九前總統．他說,國情報告的相關程序．應由立法院在符合憲法規定的意旨上．依法來協商解決。但是．根據憲法的規定與精神．總統至立法院發表國情報告．不論是一問一答．"},{"start":10779.677,"end":10790.784,"text":"或是綜合問答．等等的備詢形式．都會嚴重混淆．總統與行政院長之間的角色分際．與權責分工。一旦馬英九總統．"},{"start":10794.986,"end":10812.203,"text":"接受立法委員的質詢．就形同總統對立法院負責．將違背憲政上明定由立法院長．對行政院負責並備詢之精神。」所以范江泰基代表馬英九前總統說若"},{"start":10814.045,"end":10825.177,"text":"在野黨堅持要求一問一答或綜合問答都是創下憲政惡例破壞憲法規定這是2012年的4月26號剛剛有講到第二個時間點2015年的11月又再次討論到"},{"start":10833.986,"end":10852.565,"text":"馬前總統要不要到立法院國情報告。」這個時候我們來看看當時的立法院院長王金平怎麼說的。王金平前院長說:「如果立委要上台一問一答,將破壞憲政,破壞中華民國憲法增修條文的規定。"},{"start":10853.286,"end":10866.629,"text":"因為立法院監督的對象是行政院,不是總統。」王金平院長說:「總統不是受國會監督的對象,如果質詢就違憲。」我為什麼要講這個?因為剛剛有委員講到2012的時間,他又跳到2015的時間,完全去脈絡化"},{"start":10873.231,"end":10902.831,"text":"把他對於事實錯誤的理解要帶在柯總召民進黨的頭上這當然我要還原清楚我手上這些東西我都在司法法治委員會質詢的時候清楚提出來過所以呢我確實同意幾分鐘幾分鐘那是技術層次的問題但是到底可不可以接受一問一答或是綜合回答用馬英九當年2012的標準他是認為綜合回答也都逾越了"},{"start":10904.813,"end":10923.132,"text":"總統不對立法院負責．是行政院對立法院負責．的憲政慣例。」這是當時的國民黨馬英九前總統所以回過頭來我認為這個事情必須釐清因為大家如何看待大家不要這麼便宜行事覺得說我們現在敲好7比7比1或是9比9比2一個5分鐘或是15分鐘"},{"start":10926.448,"end":10951.335,"text":"然後這個其實落入這個邏輯就等於在場的立法委員認同總統必須接受立法委員的詢答這就是違反了憲政的精神嘛所以先把這個前提講清楚那剛剛講9比9比2或7比7比1好那總統的回答是如何時間是什麼不要忘囉過去的馬英九前總統的"},{"start":10953.735,"end":10978.695,"text":"那個說法是．即使是綜合問答．他都認為這是逾越了憲政的分歧．所以重點在回答．的部分怎麼來安排。謝謝。呃,容我提醒一下吳世堯幹事長。你們民進黨三長坐在這裡．就今天總統國情報告的事項．莊瑞雄幹事長講得最大氣。最大氣。為什麼?他幾乎完全認同"},{"start":10982.409,"end":11008.003,"text":"請總統來．讓總統創造歷史。」另外一個我必須要講你說一問一答四個字剛才國民黨民眾黨根本沒有提一問一答也不認同為尋答你現在再把這個問題勾起來我們就很難進行了因為他們已經講沒有民眾黨剛才還國民黨都已經講得很清楚他們尊重總統最終採取的什麼形式但是我們先把這三個問題理清時間"},{"start":11009.304,"end":11027.444,"text":"政黨分配、政黨次序。接下來我們就要討論同問同答一問一答還是政黨問完以後由賴清德總統來答覆政黨之間一個part一個part的答覆我們還沒討論到那裡你現在不要再把他勾搶你勾搶把問題搞複雜了嘛"},{"start":11029.534,"end":11047.025,"text":"好不好,不是我要,剛剛莊瑞雄、幹事長講得非常的好嘛,很大氣啊,完全是吻合我們現在國民黨、民眾黨跟你們民進黨完全高度共識嘛,好不好,不要再...院長,院長,偶爾意見,我抗議。講了半天,講頭問頭答,他講三個問完,三個回答,你怎麼可以這樣子?這當然是看得很清楚嘛,不能這樣子。"},{"start":11067.737,"end":11074.779,"text":"公決案。．國民黨黨團提議．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":11110.305,"end":11111.686,"text":"因為他這個當時的這個基準很困惑"},{"start":11115.893,"end":11120.22,"text":"因為這個國情報告．限制法國內公費所管理層．進來這裏才算是涉及．"},{"start":12084.389,"end":12094.676,"text":"各位黨團幹部我們現在繼續開會我們現在剛才還有哪一位要發言請柯建民總召請"},{"start":12096.704,"end":12115.516,"text":"針對我們剛才講了兩個半鐘頭所謂執行九個、九個、兩個、一個分鐘我是講的幾乎端末就是我一分鐘就答應你現在也答應你從頭到尾都答應你這個但是前提要核現新的問題我們講半鐘講憲法的問題嘛還有你"},{"start":12118.678,"end":12146.346,"text":"你不要去誤解我們的意思,我這講得太清楚,我一直跟你講說那最至端末節,一分鐘就結束,我現在就可以答應你,我們在這裡都是一樣,這個小事啊,那是重點是來所謂的,副委員講的,要三,紅飯台剛才講的嘛,三個問完三個回答,然後那才不會過話語漏飯,然後運動打嘻嘛,"},{"start":12147.566,"end":12168.994,"text":"這個是問題,這才是問題的所在嘛,這憲法是可以這樣搞嗎?黃國昌講的統問統答,一黨完畢回答,一黨完畢回答,一黨完畢回答,這變相的疑問疑答。這個東西很清楚,為什麼可以,大家繞了半天,我一直說我們要針對核限性,不是核限性的問題來回答。總統是,請任院長是對立法院負責的。"},{"start":12174.281,"end":12196.697,"text":"院長你也知道是 啊過去當然大家有不同的在野黨去挑戰執政黨但是馬英九也同樣回答這個問題我們都很清楚你把過去的事情加這塊不一樣的事情上面 二你因為我講的是那時候是三個在野黨聯合開記者會還有台聯還有親民黨然後針對社會經典有群流感 有練雙長還有一國兩棲 很多問題這個一直在挑戰國"},{"start":12201.544,"end":12202.708,"text":"馬英九確實回答說這個是違憲的然後2055再一次嘛"},{"start":12208.028,"end":12236.8,"text":"馬錫惠啊馬錫惠等下回來要讓立法院報告要讓立法院背書當然是不可能同意啊所以當然出個題目給他啊所以黃國昌委員一命不斷辦兩個事情不一樣的事情全部攪在一起然後說我會預測2015的事情這就是大家說話都沒老實啊對吧把事實真相講清楚我從頭到尾就講說我過去也主張過但是這個都不可行嘛大家知道那是朝野共犯的工具而已今天我們"},{"start":12237.6,"end":12265.186,"text":"要面對這個問題我再講一次九九二五分鐘那種毫無問題重點是這前提是什麼來以後要怎麼回答來以後在核心心上要怎麼處理那才是重點嘛講了半天都是在講憲法啊怎麼又說我在講歷史然後九七修憲難道這些東西不重要嗎我們在憲法底下做事情啊"},{"start":12266.513,"end":12271.115,"text":"想要過來國情報告有一百個方法不想來國情報告有一百個藉口我想大家都在看三個小時的一個協商但是到現在還是在講這種"},{"start":12296.775,"end":12297.676,"text":"公決案。」相關事宜。"},{"start":12314.141,"end":12329.114,"text":"今天的協商．即便連現在的協商．都是合乎憲法。憲法有規定是．可以邀請總統來國情報告．而針對立院職權行使法．就是得就"},{"start":12331.044,"end":12357.52,"text":"相關的報告不明瞭之處提出問題．發言時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項．由黨團協商決定。」換言之現在此時此刻我們在做的協商就是合法的所以不要再拿不合憲、違憲來當藉口我說實在的話如果說剛剛其實我們黃國昌總召也有講嘛我也同意啊"},{"start":12358.533,"end":12385.835,"text":"任何人也都不是大法官在這個會場裡面不順你的意就說別人違憲扣這種大帽子過去已經屢屢上演大家也都看到了我覺得這種話真的不用講如果說我們未來在這個協商會場裡面有黨團代表就是要動不動就扣別人違憲的話那就沒有什麼好談的那我甚至又覺得說你感覺講違憲就是要終止這一回合那我們大家就表決吧"},{"start":12387.011,"end":12404.983,"text":"最後我必須要說實在話我們現在在講其實他就是創下一個憲政慣例憲政首例為什麼賴清德總統當選人如果說願意來的話2024年他會是一個中華民國史上很有意義的一年因為我們現在就是創下一個例"},{"start":12406.429,"end":12433.555,"text":"這個例創下之後未來歷屆總統都會依這個例來去做相關的進行有一天國民黨會執政國民黨的總統也一樣要依照今年中華民國113年我們確定的一個例來去做所以現在只是看這時候賴清德總統當選人願不願意當第一個歷史留名的時候我不知道到底這是賴清德總統不願意面對還是今天民進黨的代表不願意讓賴清德總統面對"},{"start":12437.645,"end":12461.887,"text":"所以我最後只是結論想搭台的人找方法想拆台的人找藉口我們確實很希望能夠在113年的時候創下一個憲政首例國民黨身為在野黨但我們負起責任的希望能夠讓這件事情歷史留名而且我們更重要的是我們也希望"},{"start":12462.827,"end":12484.057,"text":"總統在還沒有修憲我們國家到底是雙手掌制總統還是內閣制的時候現在還是雙手掌制但是總統相對權力比較大的時候總統能夠真正謙卑的來到立法院聽取立法委員給他的一些建議並且好好的在立法院回答全國國人我想這才是真真正正有意義的事情謝謝接下來請黃國昌總召發言"},{"start":12490.4,"end":12514.131,"text":"針對剛剛院長所提的就是中國國民黨代表九位民主進步黨代表九位台灣民眾黨代表兩位這樣子的一個比例分配我們沒有意見敬表尊重只不過說在整個發言的時間上面就提一個建議看能不能夠斟酌在餘裕稍微延長一點因為"},{"start":12515.051,"end":12532.425,"text":"我剛剛大概算了一下如果是二十位立法委員發言每一個人五分鐘的話時間大概是一百分鐘嘛那一百分鐘大概又一個小時四十分嘛那當然就是如果我們現在的計畫是大概僅用半天的時間"},{"start":12533.911,"end":12554.877,"text":"或一天的時間來處理的話．當然我沒有預設．但基於對總統的尊重．多給總統一些發言的時間．我覺得是必要．而且是合理的．那再安排．接下來綜合答覆的一個時間．或者是你要把它稱為．"},{"start":12556.677,"end":12580.897,"text":"補充報告也沒有關係啦不管是綜合答覆還是綜合補充報告都沒有關係在預留那些時間如果我們以一天的時間來畫整個國情報告的時間如果是歷史上面的第一次我覺得立法院花一天的時間來做這個絕對是全體國人可以大家可以期待也樂於看到的事情"},{"start":12581.978,"end":12605.746,"text":"因此在這樣的情況之下我會認為說是不是委員發言的時間可以卓度的來予以延長比如說每位委員發言的時間如果到七分鐘的話我們算二十位大概就是一百四十分鐘一百四十分鐘大概就兩個小時又多一點那我們再加上總統一開始進行報告的時間"},{"start":12607.146,"end":12628.213,"text":"以及接下來不管因為怎麼樣的答覆的形式這件事情我們到目前為止還沒有協商到那個階段即使是說用一些比較不管是剛剛中國國民黨所提出來的不管是三位還是五位或者是我們曾經建議過的一個黨團"},{"start":12630.274,"end":12656.772,"text":"講完了以後再來換另外一個黨團算一算我覺得一整天的時間這樣下來應該都是足夠的那針對這樣子的建議以上提出來謝謝黃總召我嘗試性宣告一下你們能接受我想後面的發言可能跟我想法是一致的話就不用再繼續發言了我先很具體的念一下"},{"start":12657.95,"end":12685.617,"text":"各黨團針對國情報告的協商意見．初步意見．未來總統至本院進行國情報告時．於總統國情報告後．由本院各黨團推派代表發言．每位委員發言時間為五分鐘．這個點黃國昌總召希望延長一點點．到七分鐘．請問民進黨團有沒有意見?這個時間我知道五分鐘那請問國民黨團有沒有意見?"},{"start":12687.677,"end":12715.666,"text":"五分鐘到黃國昌總統如果七分鐘的話是比較符合我們立法院所有委員在過去所提出問題的時候在討論的時候不管是在委員會也好在院會也好一般來講一般來講起碼都七八分鐘以上七八分鐘以上沒關係因為你這些發言都沒有影響到賴清德總統的後續的一個"},{"start":12717.465,"end":12734.134,"text":"總的一個說明所以我覺得這個應該跟賴總統之間他不會有任何其他額外的包袱跟壓抑都不會有因為這是委員之間的事所以我想我們就修正一下七分好沒關係我再繼續念那大家的見證發言人數勒國民黨九人民進黨九人台灣民眾黨兩人進行發言的順序一台灣民眾黨"},{"start":12743.598,"end":12769.587,"text":"民進黨．國民黨．一、順序進行．二、至於尋答的方式．我們繼續溝通．國情報告．仍然列入本周四的協商主題克總召這一點你完全沒有違憲問題．請放心第三．另外本周四也要進行．新任的行政院院長施政方針報告．以及本院配合研會相關事情的協商．"},{"start":12770.919,"end":12790.213,"text":"第四點那法案的部分一樣列入本週四下午再協商請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎請簡短二要五分鐘跟七分鐘就只有這一個點有問題再來第二次協商沒有關係這個有共識時間長短還好"},{"start":12794.659,"end":12816.601,"text":"那五分鐘七分鐘我們禮拜四的時候再來共同討論一下好不好還是我就直接現在折衷六分鐘政治是妥協的藝術好不好直接折衷六分鐘這個事情時間就不要再發言請副總統長話短說請我每次都是短話短說"},{"start":12819.489,"end":12847.444,"text":"只有柯總召是短話長說我是講道理我想要特別再強調一次我想我們今天協商不是論金計量我覺得這是一個很神聖的事情但是我想今天柯總召把整個場已經攪成這個樣子了我覺得我們把"},{"start":12850.899,"end":12875.296,"text":"給賴總統一個歷史的定位啊已經被攪成這個樣子我覺得蠻可惜的這一個事情對賴清德總統當選人在歷史上一個非常清楚的定位但是不是像菜市場裡面論金論糧還一個更重要的事情"},{"start":12878.413,"end":12899.515,"text":"如果民進黨要設這麼多但書我比較好奇我只問一個到底是賴總統本人的想法跟決定還是柯總召自己的想法跟決定這個要必須要跟大家講清楚"},{"start":12901.67,"end":12912.812,"text":"因為是他個人的想法還是賴總統的想法賴總統的想法我們盡量敬與尊重所以今天在這裡花了三個小時"},{"start":12914.458,"end":12933.915,"text":"講到現在我們還是不懂因為上個禮拜五已經講得很清楚請柯總召回去詢問賴總統的意願是如何我們都表達高度善意請告訴我們他到底想法怎麼樣我們盡可能"},{"start":12937.399,"end":12962.521,"text":"來配合。」講得非常善意也非常大氣我們講得很清楚但今天三個小時一直在繞憲政問題這個憲法徵修條文第四條第三項講得很清楚再過來立法院職權刑事法97年就修了也不是說今年國民黨來修的也不是15條就寫得很清楚"},{"start":12964.76,"end":12987.392,"text":"為什麼今天在這個問題不斷地用所謂的違憲違憲違憲我要再強調一次這個東西在立法院是很糟糕的事不能變成一個口頭禪立法委員依法質詢職務不是哪一個人可以在這裡糾正所有人說有沒有違憲"},{"start":12989.875,"end":13014.122,"text":"有沒有違憲是大法官做的決議．而且還不是一個大法官能做決議．還要憲法法庭來做決議．但是現在已經變成立法院的．濫用的最低名的代名詞．連這麼莊嚴的議題．都空轉了三個小時．這個是我們不能接受的．為什麼一個這麼嚴肅的問題．"},{"start":13017.649,"end":13046.589,"text":"誰能夠代表憲法在這裡講話這裡沒有一個人有資格所以呢我們在這裡啊要再一次啊強調到底是誰的意思因為上個禮拜我講得很清楚如果今天是民進黨黨團的意思還是賴總統的意思讓我們了解清楚至少我們在對內我們黨團成員也要問為什麼是這樣我要講清楚"},{"start":13048.902,"end":13077.724,"text":"阿賴總統的意思是這樣大家覺得OK還是說是致命為大法官常住在這裏天天都發奧斯汀的人講的我要搞清楚因為大家老是這個事情上禮拜五大家很善意的都已經表達嘛但到今天為止轉了三個小時這個事情都沒有明確化所以抱歉因為當時也在院長是大家談的所以到現在為止都還沒有清楚"},{"start":13080.001,"end":13098.201,"text":"所以這個問題真的有必要讓大家搞清楚如果堅持是賴總統他的想法我們會用最大的格局跟看法來做整體的協商但這要講清楚好不好謝謝來我講一下"},{"start":13099.887,"end":13118.428,"text":"張瑞雄委員先舉著。麻煩請張委員,請發。我再講一次啦,其實民進黨我們三長的想法其實是一致啦,那個副總召其實也沒有必要那麼多情緒上的發言啦。總統要到立法院,兩個方式。第一個,"},{"start":13119.761,"end":13136.122,"text":"我們四分之一的委員．我們大家來提案．然後院會做決議以後．可以邀請總統到立法院．第二個這個是立法院想要他來．第二個是總統想來．他也可以知請立法院同意．就這兩個方式"},{"start":13136.883,"end":13162.733,"text":"好了那這現在變成是總統也想來立法院也想要他來那就就好事了嘛不管是哪一種這都很好安排了嘛那很好安排了以後呢那就本來就進行到最後就是說我們總統就是當然賴總統假設到了立法院以後就他先講話嘛他做國情報告嘛他報告完了以後各黨團"},{"start":13163.713,"end":13167.7,"text":"就請就像剛剛院長你講的就是說國民黨幾個民進黨幾個民眾黨幾個大家派比例來"},{"start":13174.295,"end":13191.466,"text":"就有不明瞭嘛不明瞭之處嘛我就算很明瞭我也可以講說你這個國政大方針很好啊該往哪個方向去啊立法委員愛怎麼講這個其實也沒辦法去限制的啦管你明不明瞭就很明瞭我也想繼續問嘛那你依託太多像我講的那天看到你啊那個東西好不好吃啊總統會覺得你也在無聊你給我問這個"},{"start":13202.875,"end":13216.822,"text":"他想不想回答就在於他了明不明瞭就在於他了那所以我倒覺得剛剛院長你那個才是如果大家沒有意見的話這部分大家就先有共識了那其他的方式如何那再來談了嘛好不好對 莊委現在接 呃 呃 等一下 等一下我回答很清楚"},{"start":13226.564,"end":13242.22,"text":"副總召安德開金口那每次開金口他坐在我前面齁我都仔細聽了我都不知道他在講什麼他說整個我們說很多淡書我們怎麼毫無淡書啊只是在核信心底下對不對要遵守信法"},{"start":13242.58,"end":13263.911,"text":"你也要講到相關你講到相關政法條例第四條是德啊你去看有沒有執行刑法是寫的是執行刑法嘛所以論金論養讓我們在論金論養是誰在論金論養院長才是委員總統人家要請人家講這就是論金論養嘛這好事情就大家一定要這樣搞啊所以我們要講清楚"},{"start":13265.772,"end":13277.743,"text":"因為賴總統的意思．其實我能坦白告訴大家．他早就在媒體講得很清楚．只要合憲合法他一定來．這再清楚不過吧．所以那天說你們會不會賴總統．我知道"},{"start":13280.646,"end":13297.232,"text":"答案是什麼?但是,既然黃國昌委員提出,你也提出,當然第一次大家協商表示很尊重大家看法,一定是好,我去瞭解看看,因為我知道這個要巧合協商啊。因為說你補助說得清楚了,還有什麼討價餘地嗎?"},{"start":13300.553,"end":13317.122,"text":"各位他選舉中間 他說有講過嘛一乾不公我要來極文極大 沒有這回事情嘛是合憲合法嘛所以這一點請大家那既然 既然副總統講到 講說只要賴總統講清楚 我們就競表同意好 那就"},{"start":13318.263,"end":13333.771,"text":"講到合憲合法．就沒有提問提答．沒有什麼統不統答．你們要不要投意．結果答案就出來了嘛．那大家說我要怎麼做．對齁．那至於時間那個．這種代表我一直講說那最簡單的事情．那幾分鐘改觀那沒什麼合正變嘛．我們一講了半天．三個鐘頭了．都會講憲法層次的問題．大家迴避問題．"},{"start":13340.338,"end":13363.125,"text":"現在我們林思明委員請發言好 謝謝主席我想柯總召你現在認為核線沒有問題我想我現在特別強調因為剛才莊瑞雄委員那核線你還可以來嗎你只要背詞的幾個字統統都在違憲嘛我非常贊同莊瑞雄委員剛才講的那我現在再提醒一點就是說因為我們現在是992"},{"start":13364.645,"end":13384.533,"text":"九九二但是九九二二十個人嘛那我們現在希望就是說那九個人九個人發言完畢這樣子可能時間很冗長所以我建議請院長也來做才是就是說每五個人或四個人發言完畢那那個來問提問之後那我們的總統就來做一次回答"},{"start":13385.313,"end":13410.789,"text":"不用說全部二十個人講完他來做回答所以我想這部分請就是說我們我先提出來了提出來了我們心情是可以再做這個協商那另外就是說總統他要怎麼回答我跟你講這件事我應該講得也非常清楚就是說這個就是立法委員這個執行新司法講的嘛就是我們對不明瞭之處我們就來提問嘛那總統至於他要回答的內容"},{"start":13411.73,"end":13428.995,"text":"總統他自己會去做一個選擇．所以這個都職權行事法規定的很清楚了．我不曉得你們還在擔心什麼呢．所以我想就依照職權行事法來做了．OK 好 謝謝你現在就可以退下一個職勤了讓主席來決定好不好接下來請黃國昌總召請發言吳世耀委員請準備"},{"start":13442.904,"end":13465.266,"text":"針對我們上個星期五在院長的召集之下黨團彼此之間交換的意見我想現場院長也聽到說我那時候其實有提議AB兩個可能的方案一個是一個立委發表完他要看法了以後總統就可以回應"},{"start":13466.656,"end":13481.657,"text":"彼岸是一個黨團．發表他的看法了以後．總統就給回應那一天民進黨的代表是怎麼說的我相信坐在這邊的人大家的記憶都歷歷在目"},{"start":13483.346,"end":13498.3,"text":"結果剛剛聽柯建民那樣的說法似乎是他上個禮拜五告訴大家說他要帶回去請問一下賴清德總統這件事情那顯然從頭到尾就是在講空話"},{"start":13500.081,"end":13524.003,"text":"從頭到尾就是在講恐話我們那天坐在那邊談得很具體A案跟B案他說他也不知道賴清德總統怎麼想他要帶回去再問一下結果今天坐在這邊又說只要合憲就願意來我們又把問題從試圖要具體化又拉回去抽象化了"},{"start":13525.504,"end":13547.84,"text":"我必須要再一次的說明基於對韓院長的尊重那一天您著急了在您的辦公室裡面不是進行正式的黨團協商是在進行意見交換那我們其實也去了那只不過說那樣子的意見交換就是說並不是說不好"},{"start":13548.781,"end":13572.872,"text":"但你沒有留下一些影音的記錄到時候出來大家就各說各話本來應該是很清楚的事情都可以搞成像羅生門一樣我覺得真的是會讓人覺得非常的遺憾那第二個部分目前我們在進行的協商顯然就不是依照憲法徵稅條文在進行協商"},{"start":13575.12,"end":13590.356,"text":"因為憲法徵修條文第四條第三項的規定在立法院現行的立法院職權行使法已經把它具體化了所以我們一直在進行的協商其實都是按照目前的立法院職權行使法15條之四那15條之四"},{"start":13593.439,"end":13618.339,"text":"我們依法論法以目前現行的規定上面有說就委員的發言總統同意可以綜合再做補充委員可以發言那總統他要不要同意綜合補充那個總統他自己可以做決定那依照我們現行的規定總統他不做綜合補充"},{"start":13620.974,"end":13643.448,"text":"我們也不能說總統違法我的意思是說立法院有立法院自己的主體性譬如說我們今天做了一個決定不管是三個委員五個委員還是一個黨團的委員發言完提出了問題以後我們把規矩設下來我們邀請總統"},{"start":13645.462,"end":13672.374,"text":"請他來回覆。」那總統說我不同意我不想回覆我想不管是本院任何一位委員乃至於院長恐怕都沒有辦法強迫總統嘛但問題是總統同意或不同意這件事情我們何必預先做決定呢?譬如說今天我們最後立法院按照民主的程序我們所設定的規則是希望說"},{"start":13673.755,"end":13698.787,"text":"三位立委講完了以後我們希望總統能夠綜合的來做補充報告總統說我不願意那不願意我們最後也只能尊重總統因為假設我們適用的是現在的立法院職選行事法那總統表示我不同意我相信院長的高度在主持議事你也一定尊重總統嘛你不會說"},{"start":13700.288,"end":13725.246,"text":"我不同意你不同意嘛因為他只要不同意他就沒有他就沒有需要針對回答那但是我覺得我們邀請總統來立法院有自己的主體性我們希望能夠落實整個人民對於立法院在這一次進行國情報告的期待在現行的法律架構下面我們本來就可以邀請總統來"},{"start":13726.767,"end":13737.718,"text":"也可以邀請他針對立法委員所提出來的問題他可以做補充報告。不管今天是三位、五位、一個黨團"},{"start":13739.68,"end":13765.99,"text":"還是到最後的同問同答。」這個是我們立法院自己可以決定的。我們決定了以後,總統同意或不同意,我們依照現行法,就是要尊重。那這個以上,是我個人對於目前立法院職權行使法在維持國會的尊嚴跟主體性,我自己所做出來的一個我自己的看法,也提供給院長。"},{"start":13767.23,"end":13768.112,"text":"做參考。以上。"},{"start":13780.309,"end":13808.74,"text":"今天花了三個多小時時間在這邊討論也許有在野黨委員覺得司堯的發言或總召的發言讓大家覺得聽得很煩、很膩但我覺得這個討論都是有意義的因為我們在創造第一次台灣的憲政的好的慣例所以我們都想要成就這個美式我們都想要把這個台搭得好、搭得穩所以沒有人要拆台"},{"start":13809.5,"end":13833.976,"text":"沒有人要毀掉這件事情,反而是欲速則不達。」我一直是非常正向在看待這樣的討論裡頭,讓我們對於憲政的精神也好,職權行使法的實踐也好,都有更進一步的共識。我認為到今天,到現在此時此刻,9比9比2,每位6分鐘,這是我們往前推進了一步,這個共識的凝聚也是一步一步這樣爭論而來的。"},{"start":13837.167,"end":13863.462,"text":"所以說我謝謝院長說我們今天定在這裡那我們週四可以繼續針對問的問題已經沒有問題了就是答的方式跟時間大家可以冷靜都再回去好好的思考看看我花了這麼多時間的論述就是回到憲法的本文跟直選行事法的文藝基本上總統來報告他接受的是大家的詢問"},{"start":13865.043,"end":13888.488,"text":"而不是質詢．提問而不是質詢．或者是詢問．因為質詢刑事法的文字是詢問．而不是質詢．我要一直論述的是這件事情．所以這會回到．我們如果下週四要去決定．是幾個完之後回答．或者是全部一起回答．請大家扣合著這個精神．總統來．他不是被詢．他不是質詢．"},{"start":13889.808,"end":13914.205,"text":"好嗎?好,請尊重我的發言好嗎?大家都乘著性子,我也不是沒有個性好嗎?但是我願意在這裡循著性子一再講一再講,讓大家能夠把這個東西融會貫通。心而上者未知道,情而下者未知氣。我們在處理的是道跟氣並用的問題,它需要花時間。"},{"start":13915.646,"end":13941.479,"text":"所以我認為這個討論我還是覺得非常正向我非常appreciate今天大家坐在這裡但是不要在這邊繼續沒有人猜台好嗎?黃委員我們都在成就這個好事把台搭好 把台搭穩那我們已經往前推進一步了那我們也都接受9比9比2的6分鐘答的部分我們大家好好思考 謝謝謝謝吳斯亞維接下來最後我們再請柯建民總召喊"},{"start":13942.452,"end":13971.428,"text":"我想 順著剛才吳世耀委員講的話我們前面有在拖延 前面有在搭檯讓賴總統能夠來 你有機會來立法院做國情報告這是一個新的里程碑 大家都知道但是呢 剛剛黃中講的話 包括各位講的話我一直在繞來繞去 故意在那裡很混淆你所謂你那邊提出來 好像說我好像沒有在現場你在現場眼睛看你講話"},{"start":13973.748,"end":13993.924,"text":"你說要與民一打．或是黨院黨打．,這不是執行嗎?這不是執行嗎?然後呢,你說那些沒有語言紀錄,沒有錄音。我知道,你最反對民主協商,但是你成功建起民主協商,你就算了。我們這個不計較。市長,不要再提了。"},{"start":13998.808,"end":14011.603,"text":"他有提到問題我才回答,我可以問他的問題好不好,院長不好意思。然後當初問我,我當然是禮貌上說,你也講說回去問賴總統,你也講我說,我當然禮貌上再問,再回答嘛,沒問題啊。"},{"start":14018.41,"end":14034.309,"text":"難道我當天就在那個地方．沒有直播的地方跟你們吵架嗎．不可能嘛。這個方．要到新竹錄影嘛．那天氣氛還不錯．院長也這樣開口．我說好我就問．所以我告訴你．我知道賴總統在．"},{"start":14035.871,"end":14051.328,"text":"媒體講很清楚他寫的都很濃講很清楚但是我當然也跟你們吵架也不對嘛也沒有直播所以我這樣講就是說黃莊委員剛才又是迴避問題嘛就是講什麼這個他要來立法院決定就好是這樣嗎他沒有形式我們立法院自己來決定"},{"start":14058.475,"end":14072.288,"text":"是這樣嗎?那是遭由憲政通徒吧。你把一個法,要憲法問題,你把它降低層次到執行刑事法,你是迴避問題,到現在目前還是一直迴避問題嘛。他來,讓立法院來解釋就好。"},{"start":14075.888,"end":14099.803,"text":"讓他假如假如你們希望你們希望一問一答或是同問同答三問三答他不要的話是不是先人衝突這個大家要講好啊我們不是讓他來製造先人衝突這是要讓先一個歷史的里程碑先要開始這是用這種心情去看待講了半天還是在秀娃問題大家迴避秀娃然後然後繞了半天"},{"start":14102.562,"end":14127.467,"text":"謝謝柯總,謝謝各位黨團幹部,大家真的非常的辛苦,再一次感謝。那事實上那一天我們講了禮拜四我們要再協商,應該是有三個方案,我補充一下試試看。第一個,個人委員問完以後總統回答。第二,政黨問完以後政黨回答。第三,全部問完以後總統做一個統一回答。大致上禮拜四下午我們可以討論這個方式。那我再一次感謝各位黨團幹部還有各位工作的夥伴,大家都很辛苦。"},{"start":14128.027,"end":14136.985,"text":"也請議事處處長去跟交通部王部長還有高副主委質疑一下他們枯坐了一下午非常不好意思那我們禮拜四我們繼續協商現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15905","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2ddc364aa3d15180a5b1b57e8a8fefb5fe3be8d109af184be49b9a8d153ae6b64a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-13","start_time":"2024-05-13T08:30:55+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:35:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11045,"委員發言時間":"08:30:55 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利擔任歐盟下半年輪值主席期間推動歐中關係穩定發展顯示中共視賽匈俄國為對歐工作突破口那試圖打造中東歐與帶入樣板"},{"start":2549.027,"end":2560.671,"text":"發揮歐中合作示範效應．並持續累積在歐親中力量．影響歐盟對中政策一致性。瓜福山煽動反美意識應對陣營對抗"},{"start":2565.044,"end":2592.633,"text":"習近平訪問塞爾維亞刻意重提中共駐南斯拉夫使館遭誤炸事件,宣稱決不讓歷史悲劇重演,並宣布與塞爾維亞共建命運共同體,加以匈牙利常與歐盟、北歐內部歐洲大國之外事立場相助,顯示中共謀凝聚中東歐反美共識,令習近平訪歐後"},{"start":2594.273,"end":2619.886,"text":"二總統普丁 定5月15至16日訪陸,關注習近平二十大後,去年3月20至22日訪俄。普丁5月7日新任期亦首訪中共,圖顯鞏固雙邊戰略協作意圖,抗衡西方圍堵。三、歐中經貿摩擦可能升溫,法歐強調貿易"},{"start":2621.187,"end":2638.18,"text":"需公平競爭取得平衡,將堅定保護自身經濟與安全,然習近平重申入電動車新能源等產業不存在產能過剩問題,反批歐盟扭曲國際自由貿易,雙方各說各話。"},{"start":2639.801,"end":2655.126,"text":"加以歐盟密集調查入大陸太陽能板、風力發電機具、醫療器材等不公平貿易,歐中經貿摩擦可能持續加劇。法、歐關注東亞情勢馬克宏向習表達對兩岸北韓等東亞緊張情勢之關切"},{"start":2663.488,"end":2677.16,"text":"馮德萊恩一強調,在歐洲、東亞等動盪環境下,歐中應促使以規則為基礎的國際秩序有效運作,反映法歐加大遏阻中共迫害東亞穩定現況。"},{"start":2679.54,"end":2700.902,"text":"二、對我國安影響評估一、歐盟個別國家將平衡發展對中關係。法歐堅持改善對中貿易失衡問題,其持反不影響歐盟去風險化政策。然,歐盟個別成員國可能依照自身需求在去風險"},{"start":2703.103,"end":2729.998,"text":"維護本國經貿利益之間取得平衡．調整與中共經貿關係．或將牽動臺歐經貿往來。第二,密駐中共與特定國家操作涉台議題．臺歐關係雖不至因習近平此訪產生變化．但中共促塞爾維亞、匈牙利等親中國家復賀中共一中．"},{"start":2730.638,"end":2732.399,"text":"中共將加大干擾歐洲各國友台活動"},{"start":2755.217,"end":2768.622,"text":"地區將舉行系列選舉,包括6月上旬歐洲議會選舉,以及英國、比利時、立陶宛等國議會亦將改選。中共將刺激打壓反中陣營選情,並針對可能當選之官員、議員加強摸底。"},{"start":2774.224,"end":2803.376,"text":"推進對歐洲議會、歐盟成員國議會工作干擾臺歐議會外交、削弱歐洲挺臺氛圍第四,美歐中印太角力影響我周邊穩定馬克宏在席訪法前先會晤日向岸田同意啟動日法兩軍互惠准入協定談判德國防部5月7日亦宣布派遣兩艘軍艦赴印太地區捍衛航行自由"},{"start":2804.096,"end":2829.596,"text":"沒與盟友加強印太維穩,抗衡中共擴張威脅中共則持續在周邊海域強化聯合演訓等常態化軍事活動可能在國際挺台作為後,加大基建老台,破壞區域穩定習近平此訪,釋出改善對歐關係意向,加強凝聚中東歐親中力量"},{"start":2830.276,"end":2852.915,"text":"但歐中地緣安全經貿摩擦分歧能存未來歐盟歐洲國家涉台作為能將受美國大選結果、臺歐合作等因素牽動中共將續分化歐盟內部及美歐關係聯動牽制取等對台政策立場本局將持續強化"},{"start":2854.156,"end":2876.647,"text":"收研工作部署．掌握情勢發展及安全預警．及時提供決策參考．以上報告敬請大院委員先進．不吝指教．並持續對本局工作．給予大力支持謝謝接下來請外交部田政務次長上台報告"},{"start":2884.165,"end":2897.175,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安。非常感謝貴委員會的邀請,我代表外交部就今天的主題,《大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響》提出報告。詳細內容請各位參閱書面報告,口頭報告如下。"},{"start":2907.322,"end":2935.187,"text":"習近平在今年5月6日至10日先後訪問法國、塞爾維亞以及匈牙利三個歐洲國家重要目的包括慶祝中法建交60週年但同時也凸顯北大西洋公約組織於科索沃戰爭期間轟炸中國駐南斯拉夫大使館25週年以及宣傳中匈建交75週年"},{"start":2937.348,"end":2957.322,"text":"這個是習近平自2019年以來再度訪問歐洲習近平首站到了法國與馬克宏總統進行雙邊會談歐盟執委會的主席馮德萊恩也應邀參加習近平等進行三方的會談"},{"start":2958.643,"end":2961.365,"text":"習近平訪問塞爾維亞時,會務總統伍契奇,雙方簽訂了29項合作協定,並發布聯合聲明,將雙邊關係至全面戰略夥伴關係提升為命運共同體。"},{"start":2976.634,"end":2998.63,"text":"習近平最後一站到訪匈牙利,其間分別會晤匈牙利的總統蘇尤克以及總理歐班,會後發布聯合聲明,宣布將中匈的全面戰略夥伴關係提升為全天候全面戰略夥伴關係。"},{"start":3000.287,"end":3025.221,"text":"歐盟自2019年以來將中國定位為合作的夥伴、經濟競爭者以及體制的對手但近期歐盟執委會顯然在經濟安全方面對中國採取更強硬的立場並對中國非市場的作為施加反制的措施"},{"start":3026.061,"end":3048.579,"text":"包括對中國製造之太陽能板﹐電動車﹐鋼鐵等啟動各項貿易調查。馮德蘭主席在三方會談後﹐再次對中國非市場的行為表達高度關切﹐希望中國政府正視並解決其產能過剩及不公平市場競爭的手段問題。"},{"start":3051.101,"end":3070.98,"text":"他另外表示,歐盟將與G7及重要的新興經濟體國家合作,面對中國扭曲市場的問題,持續強化供應鏈的韌性,並需擴充及強化其經濟安全工具,以確保歐洲市場的利益。"},{"start":3072.498,"end":3095.71,"text":"馬克龍總統與習近平在雙方會談後就中東的局勢、海洋的合作、人工智慧以及農業交流等四項議題發表聯合聲明並且宣布就生物多樣性、環保、航空以及文化等議題簽署了18項的合約或合作備忘錄"},{"start":3097.521,"end":3120.366,"text":"馬克龍總統在聯合記者會上﹐延續法國至上年以來在法澳、法日二加二的會談﹐以及通過2024到2030七年建軍法案﹐希望強化臺海和平穩定的立場﹐重申對海峽兩岸等區域緊張情勢的擔憂﹐"},{"start":3123.107,"end":3146.225,"text":"習近平訪問匈牙利,事逢中匈建交75周年,在會晤總統蘇尤克表示雙邊關係正處於歷史的最佳時刻,在會晤總理歐班時共同宣布提升中歐關係至全天候全面戰略夥伴關係以及其他18項協議。"},{"start":3149.684,"end":3152.125,"text":"習近平訪問塞爾維亞．並在會務總統伍契奇．宣布簽訂29項的合作協議．並發布聯合聲明將雙方全面戰略夥伴關係提升為命運共同體"},{"start":3168.74,"end":3187.736,"text":"塞芳在聯合聲明中重申堅定支持《一國中國》的原則,並謬稱台灣是中國領土不可分割的一部分,反對任何形式的台灣獨立,並重申不同意台灣當局進行任何形式的官方往來。"},{"start":3188.977,"end":3203.329,"text":"外交部對塞爾維亞矮化我國地位的錯誤論述予以嚴正的駁斥重申中華民國臺灣是主權獨立的國家與中華人民共和國互不隸屬且中華人民共和國未曾統治過臺灣一天"},{"start":3205.211,"end":3218.798,"text":"任何扭曲臺灣主權地位的說法都不會改變臺海現狀以及國際公認客觀的事實對匈牙利提及一個中國原則外交部也表示失望"},{"start":3220.267,"end":3242.33,"text":"再次感謝大院及各位委員對於我國國際處境及外交工作的關心。自習近平訪歐之行可以看到,歐盟與中國在區域安全以及經濟安全等議題上存在許多分歧,且歐盟近年積極推動去風險化等經貿安全的戰略。"},{"start":3243.991,"end":3265.216,"text":"臺灣將持續與法國及歐盟等理念相近的夥伴,持續強化互惠互利的合作關係,共同提升全球民主供應鏈的安全與韌性,並創造亞太區域的和平及繁榮。敬請大院委員先進不吝指導,持續給予本部大力支持。"},{"start":3272.592,"end":3273.013,"text":"現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3298.038,"end":3301.585,"text":"謝謝主席,有請田次長,還有領務局何局長"},{"start":3310.888,"end":3311.048,"text":"羅委員您早"},{"start":3334.991,"end":3335.071,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":3365.054,"end":3366.395,"text":"外交部多次要求移除哈薩克、白俄羅斯、烏茲別克等3個國家。"},{"start":3385.655,"end":3385.815,"text":"請問田次長"},{"start":3414.099,"end":3437.956,"text":"首先還是要謝謝羅委員對這個結婚面談這個事情的一直的關注那麼我想外交部在結婚自由以及防堵非法境外入境的這方面我們要採取一個平衡所以上次跟您報告以後我們領務局的同仁已經出發到了越南"},{"start":3438.596,"end":3444.478,"text":"因為這個時間當然可能還要給我們一點時間因為這個量是非常的大不過已經在進行了另外有些國家呢我們已經取消了他結婚面談一些文件的驗證因為確實他們有些國家"},{"start":3465.626,"end":3469.296,"text":"是不是我可以請林務局長很詳細跟您說明一下麻煩何局長"},{"start":3472.593,"end":3498.912,"text":"謝謝委員徐馨這個問題我想上一次我們也跟委員報告過我們大概年初就已經因為我們不定期都會去檢討相關的這個制度那其實到現在到這個月應該我們已經接近檢討完成的這個階段所以我想跟委員報告很短的時間之內我們會朝向這個在精簡的方向去跟委員做報告那個就是面談的國家"},{"start":3499.824,"end":3527.555,"text":"就是面談的國家,所以有些國家其實是會再次的移除嘛有些,就是說剛才我所提到,像波達塞內加爾、斯里蘭卡這些國家根本就沒有人要申請這個簽證了所以你掛在帳面上其實真的很不OK,像柬埔寨柬埔寨說實在的,為什麼在東南亞國家裡面柬埔寨會是申請面談人數最少的那是因為他們的國家其實要去面談,其實這個不容易也不可能,所以要跑一趟越南"},{"start":3528.035,"end":3553.137,"text":"所以就算柬埔寨的這個人民想要跟國人結婚這是一個非常困難的一條路那是不是就有機會是說把柬埔寨的面談是不是先移除這個部分完成程序後我們會會正式公告所以說你們其實已經有這個調整的這個動作了倒是調整完的話會對我報告的意思嗎希望能夠提到聽到這個好消息好那再來就是何局長請回"},{"start":3556.055,"end":3580.041,"text":"我剛剛有聽了就是國安局跟這個我們外交部的專題報告那國安局跟外交部都認為歐盟與中國在區域安全跟經濟安全等議題其實存在了很多的這個分歧所以我們認為說那外交部是認為說台灣呢將持續跟法國跟歐盟的理念相近的國家其實都可以合作"},{"start":3581.521,"end":3606.14,"text":"繼續合作下去是比較樂觀的一個想法可是呢國安局卻認為就是說中共可能會持續分化歐盟內部跟美歐關係然後連帶牽制取等對台政策的這個立場那其實我們都知道就是說法國的總理馬克宏其實很積極的推動歐洲戰略自主他們想在防疫跟國家安全上面避免成為美國的"},{"start":3607.06,"end":3612.625,"text":"這幾年來法國跟中國是眉來眼去的他們希望把中國視為一個平衡的力量那再來的話像這次習近平到了法國塞爾維亞跟匈牙利我們會不會擔心就是說中國往後會在歐盟這個國家一一來做這個擊破然後對於我們跟這個歐洲在疫情"},{"start":3634.104,"end":3634.284,"text":"會不會有這種狀況?我們會擔憂嗎?"},{"start":3653.548,"end":3673.25,"text":"我們相信習近平這次訪歐洲絕對不會是唯一的一次我想在未來這個期間他會分別的不但去訪問或者去邀請一些歐洲的國家來訪問中國這是一定會發生的事情但是我們也可以看得出來這一次"},{"start":3674.335,"end":3680.658,"text":"即使在中國跟法國建交60週年,非常重要的一個時間,然後法國也要舉行奧運,而且它的經貿問題,對,停火協定,這對法國很重要的,但是法國也一再再重申對台灣海峽的安全跟穩定是非常重要的。"},{"start":3697.447,"end":3699.45,"text":"所以我覺得他們是從兩個方面來看這個問題經貿的議題的安全的問題他們做一個很聰明的一個區隔當然比如說塞爾維亞這是鐵桿的匈牙利這個可能搖動性比較難"},{"start":3712.871,"end":3736.907,"text":"但是我們現在在歐盟所做的一些工作事實上也可以做一些平衡如果委員也注意到最近歐盟的一些國家在臺灣的支持的力度也非常非常的強所以我們必須趁這個時候跟民主like-minded country怎麼樣結合在一起用臺灣的優勢、民主、自由、人權來強化跟他們的關係"},{"start":3737.848,"end":3764.848,"text":"這是我們目前維持了非常好應該是過往最好的一次我們跟歐洲的這個關係我想是這個關係是在這麼多年以來我們跟歐洲的關係是最好的一次所以我們也很擔心習近平就像市長您剛所提到的習近平的這個訪歐絕對不是唯一的一次我們也很擔心他一次一次的訪歐然後跟歐洲之間的互動越來越親密因為我們也有"},{"start":3767.27,"end":3777.165,"text":"我們也會覺得說像烏克蘭、烏俄戰爭其實這個可能也許會已經到了這個尾聲我想歐盟是不是有些國家也希望跟中國來修補這個關係這個會不會是台灣的一個危機我們所擔心的是這個"},{"start":3783.017,"end":3805.224,"text":"其實烏克蘭戰爭其實是把臺灣推到了更一個更高的高度跟這些理念相近國家是怎樣結合在一起就是剛才我所提到的就是大家在反侵略的風潮之下臺灣其實是受到很多歐洲國家的認同可是當這個風潮過的時候呢臺灣會不會跟歐洲的關係呢是有所變化比較擔心的是這個"},{"start":3806.224,"end":3814.41,"text":"與委員包括我們會持續的跟歐洲、歐盟的國家以及全世界的理念相近的國家持續的以臺灣的優勢跟他們加強關係。"},{"start":3842.472,"end":3847.013,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請田次長請田次長學院長早安,次長,我想要請問您喔知道在那個期刊雜誌Financial Times在3月27號有關於捷克與台灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的報導嗎?你有掌握嗎?"},{"start":3875.2,"end":3894.509,"text":"傑克的晶片 了解一點我講的是在financial times裡面的內容不是我們說臺灣跟傑克之間的關係這一點我沒有掌握不過我看看我們的市長有沒有掌握好 你們的市長有沒有掌握 來 說明一下"},{"start":3896.973,"end":3904.522,"text":"我想這個報導裡面有非常多不是事實好,我們等一下就來討論哪裏不是事實也給你們一個誠心的機會"},{"start":3905.816,"end":3929.49,"text":"那在這個報導裏面提到我們2023年11月由與捷克簽署烏克蘭重建工作的MOU實際過程當中我國與捷克有不少涉及先進晶片產業發展與工業的經費是由我國提供主要預算請問這件事情是真的嗎?"},{"start":3930.484,"end":3935.392,"text":"是的是真的嘛所以也不是說整篇的內容都是不實的嘛"},{"start":3936.038,"end":3965.233,"text":"那我有看到你們在一個即時新聞澄清官區裡面有寫到一些內容那因為時間的關係我們不一一贅述我們從裡面來討論那外交部在4月24號的時候說到我們在民國111年跟捷克開始協商一項5年的計劃要在捷克成立先進晶片設計中心討論也進入到"},{"start":3965.973,"end":3969.135,"text":"這個金額部分我們並沒有公開不過基本上我們跟他們之間沒有報導所稱的預算上的問題"},{"start":3995.049,"end":4011.597,"text":"2023年11月,台灣行政院公佈了《精創台灣法案》的計畫,有這件事吧?這是國科會的業務但是我們跟捷克來說,還是跟外交部有關嗎?很多的談判上面來說的話,國科會出的錢嗎?"},{"start":4014.281,"end":4016.344,"text":"計劃章中寫道,10年內要投資3000億台幣,運用台灣半導體的優勢,結合人工AI技術的創新,布局未來的產業科技"},{"start":4032.662,"end":4046.669,"text":"國科會的計劃,他們準備在捷克舉辦精創海外基地,還要成立半導體的研究中心。這個報導也提到說本來今年2月就要推動撥款"},{"start":4048.01,"end":4065.912,"text":"但是國科會主委表示在捷克大學的項目不是跟捷克合作也不勉強簽署台捷科技的合作協議想請問這件事情外交部怎麼看有沒有接到捷克方面對於此事的反應"},{"start":4067.199,"end":4080.073,"text":"捷克曾經跟我們表達說這個計劃跟委員剛剛所講的計劃兩者是如何區別那我們也跟什麼區別我們就是說這是兩個計劃您剛剛講的第一個是外交部的計劃第二個是國科會的計劃第一個計劃是"},{"start":4084.724,"end":4112.049,"text":"捷克與臺灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的計劃是這樣嗎?不是,第一個計劃你把兩個計劃的名稱說清楚第一個計劃是先進晶片中心的計劃這個是外交部的計劃第二個計劃是國科會以國內的以晶片為基礎的創新為中心延伸到國外的計劃這是兩個不同的計劃那外交部的計劃總共預計投入多少的預算跟資源?"},{"start":4112.969,"end":4133.574,"text":"剛剛有跟委員報告就是說這個計劃我的印象是現在沒有對外公佈實際上的金額那國科會的有嘛那國科會公佈的叫做十年內投資3000億台幣那是不是我們在投入的經費上面跟我們的這個有落差我們看一下下一張投影片好不好來"},{"start":4135.455,"end":4162.967,"text":"可以看到,國科會,這是國科會的他有提到的是,包含是29億2000萬等等的臺灣精創方案,300億的預算,一年至少要花300億300億減掉我們今年編的是94.9億,等於是205億所以有很大的落差,這是國科會的部分那剛剛您講了外交部的部分,不能說我就不問了"},{"start":4164.648,"end":4187.636,"text":"但是立法院在國科會主管的報告裡面所提到的我們剛剛的預算跟當時跟捷克承諾的部分有很大的落差我當時問的問題是捷克有沒有向我方反映包含國科會跟外交部的計劃在預算跟撥款上面跟先前講的不一樣"},{"start":4188.982,"end":4204.519,"text":"並沒有並沒有,他們不在乎不是,是因為這個是媒體的錯誤報導事實上我們跟捷克一直在在洽談如何妥善的執行因此我們到目前也都還沒有撥款"},{"start":4205.16,"end":4206.562,"text":"因為我們的約是這幾天才有可能談定因為我們要求建立一個監督的委員會"},{"start":4222.98,"end":4241.087,"text":"這幾天才談定那跟蕭美琴準副總統到捷克參訪有任何的關聯嗎?沒有任何關聯他們也沒有談到那你們是在什麼時候開始洽談這個方案的呢?應該是在去年中開始但是因為這個案子是我國第一次對外推動半導體的相關的合作"},{"start":4241.767,"end":4264.536,"text":"所以在這個半導體的相關合作上面在Financial Times上面就說在涉及具體的資金多付上台灣的調子非常的慢而且台灣曾經許諾投入不少於3300萬美金用於台捷民主夥伴供應鏈韌性計劃你有聽過這個計劃嗎?"},{"start":4269.406,"end":4286.855,"text":"有當然剛剛委員所提到的先進晶片設計中心就是其中一個部分那兩項重點的撥款項目是1350萬美元跟600萬美元而捷克方面至今沒有收到該項目的任何一筆經費"},{"start":4288.275,"end":4303.44,"text":"請問外交部知道這件事情嗎?或者這是一個錯誤的報導嗎?這是錯誤的資訊您剛提到有一個600萬的預算我沒有辦法確認它的金額目前不過有這件事但是我們已經撥款了你已經撥款600萬的美元給捷克"},{"start":4306.701,"end":4308.682,"text":"那請問ACDRC本來是臺灣跟捷克要共同舉辦的開幕儀式"},{"start":4337.182,"end":4351.354,"text":"請問這件事情還有要繼續辦嗎?這件事情還會繼續辦但是因為我們約要先簽所以會在三月中的時候辦嗎?不會啊,現在已經五月了那為什麼三月中當時討論要辦卻延遲了呢?因為我們的約還沒有簽"},{"start":4357.058,"end":4373.186,"text":"約還沒有錢那預計什麼時候要辦理我想應該是這幾天這一兩個禮拜之內這一兩個禮拜那最後我要講一下結論就是呢在這個financial times裡面呢認為說撥款的速度太慢讓捷克方面有一點不滿"},{"start":4373.846,"end":4389.563,"text":"最後給大家看一張照片這是捷克半導體的投資商機說明會我們看到二月份的時候崇越科技跟投資捷克的代表捷克經濟駐文化辦事處簽署合作備忘錄MOU就這麼剛好"},{"start":4393.067,"end":4418.422,"text":"崇越科技的董事長郭志輝也就是現在的準經濟部長我不曉得是暗示了他當時就被內定為經濟部長還是接下了經濟部長之後有實質的影響力讓崇越科技有角色變成郭志輝的關係從經濟部跟民間部門有資源上面的互動"},{"start":4421.455,"end":4434.962,"text":"這個研討會是捷克代表處舉辦的,並不是我方舉辦的對啊,不是啊,但是我要問你的是說我們裡面有這個準經濟部長這件事情,你們的看法跟態度是什麼嗎?捷克代表處邀請新東向協會舉辦的,那細節我們並不清楚"},{"start":4437.363,"end":4453.653,"text":"未來在台灣跟半導體的投資方面因為台灣跟捷克還是會透過外交部嘛很多事情的進行那請問未來我們的經濟部長先前所待的重樂科技在裡面會不會有角色你們知不知情"},{"start":4455.141,"end":4458.784,"text":"民間企業自主行為外交部並不會介入這恐怕要問經濟部"},{"start":4473.08,"end":4485.069,"text":"我們是平行機構那對涉外事務如果需要跨部會的協調那我們一定會處理但是有關於這個委員剛剛問的案子我們實在是沒有辦法去問經濟部因為這個應該是委員的權責好 謝謝接下來請黃仁委員上台諮詢"},{"start":4503.891,"end":4507.856,"text":"有請我們田次長請田次長我先講一個題外話今天創造了一個歷史是什麼"},{"start":4519.827,"end":4545.805,"text":"部長提告國會的議員這樣的一個例子所以這個就是我們一直在國會裡面趕快提出藐視國會罪的立場包含調查權包含聽證權的目的就在這裡官員來這個地方就是準備背刑不是反執行所以這個部分必須要跟部長一定要提示"},{"start":4547.025,"end":4567.351,"text":"這個創造了所有在世界裡面哪有部長提高國會的議員這樣的一個立場實在是非常不解請次長轉交轉化給部長我的立場那至於關於立陶宛代表處可能會招明除名這個"},{"start":4569.793,"end":4592.939,"text":"我國的立陶宛辦事處會不會被改名因為目前總統選舉在5月12號在進行中而現在總統在選前就已經向我國的駐外立陶宛的代表處已經希望改為台灣改為台北處有沒有這回事"},{"start":4595.054,"end":4601.587,"text":"這個在選舉期間政治人物的發言我們予以尊重這個你們的態度勒"},{"start":4606.274,"end":4628.848,"text":"但是如果委員您如果有注意到12號的時候記者再問這個老賽達萬一你選上總統的話你對台灣的態度是什麼他的語調已經更改了他要持續跟台灣維持文化與經濟的深化"},{"start":4631.289,"end":4652.63,"text":"所以我認為那個部分可能是選舉上的一種語言好,你們現在有沒有掌握到立陶宛現在目前官方正以對岸大陸有一些密切的一個正常化的一個關係有沒有掌握到有的"},{"start":4653.536,"end":4670.456,"text":"有,所以你們有沒有危機意識今天會有這樣的一個態度就表示你們外交部現在也是岌岌可危應該你們要著重在這個角度我上次在質詢部長的時候我特別提出"},{"start":4671.777,"end":4693.248,"text":"特別是海地的這個關係可能是不是岌岌可危可能會不會有變數你們部長特別提出說沒有這個變數但是他在這個媒體裡面就已經提出他有兩個隱憂這個隱憂就是第一個就是海地第二個瓜地馬拉"},{"start":4695.028,"end":4715.492,"text":"這個就已經隱憂在這個地方當然在520之前你們要掩蓋事實還是覆蓋這個事實不要在520之後發生這樣的問題到了520之後是不是有這樣的危機而且是非常嚴重你們應該要誠實以對告訴給國人現在的發生問題即將要發生的"},{"start":4724.203,"end":4738.567,"text":"請教,對不起委員,您剛剛說部長有提到那兩個國家嗎?好像沒有,他說兩個國家有隱憂,我聽到的是這樣,而且部長也講得非常清楚"},{"start":4739.087,"end":4739.107,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":4763.833,"end":4790.175,"text":"所以現在520之前你們認為沒有但是有這個隱憂存在這也是部長在親口對著媒體所講的對兩個隱憂你們本來就應該常常隱憂因為我們的邦交國只是剩下12個現在沒有突發性的現在你們卻要再把預注在東歐這個國家所以現在由"},{"start":4791.553,"end":4816.38,"text":"就此的520有8個國家政府研所會來參加那另外4個國一個隨教廷之外另外3國是不是有隱憂這個隱憂是不是可能會展現出他們對我們國內進行未來可能要斷交的可能性為什麼他們不來你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":4817.369,"end":4845.725,"text":"我們三個其他三個都會來教廷也會派特使來但是層級來說可能不是總理或總統的他是副總理或者副總統教廷也會派特使所以12個邦交國都會有高級的代表來參加另外四國裡面除了教廷之外另外三國應該如果假使對我們國內的邦交是正常化"},{"start":4846.525,"end":4864.233,"text":"而且是12個國家裡面應該會政府元首應該都會派不是特使不是大使那這個三個國家裡面表示是不是也是存在著一個隱憂而且產生了對我們國內對我們"},{"start":4866.903,"end":4868.664,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒不過我本人也做過總統的特使去參加馬紹爾"},{"start":4882.21,"end":4882.931,"text":"你剛剛講的馬紹爾去年的失業"},{"start":4908.149,"end":4918.344,"text":"有一個學者叫黃介正提醒落魯邦交可能生變結果外交部反而大罵黃介正結果到最後勒"},{"start":4922.279,"end":4945.919,"text":"這個新任的總統為我國長期有人堅定支持兩國邦誼最終不到三個月的時間落魯就以我國斷交所以你們今天所講的你們要負責任但是不能夠斷言你們希望也一定要產生一個隱憂一定會另外上次我跟外交部長我特別提出來"},{"start":4946.9,"end":4967.32,"text":"我們國內的原住民是屬於南東以西的民族希望能夠跟南東以西的民族裡面20個聯邦國可以作為我們有任所的大使進行邦交增加我們的外交的力量你們有沒有這個思考"},{"start":4968.231,"end":4988.064,"text":"有的跟委員報告您上次大概我們也報告過了不是無認所現在是有認所可以實質有權跟我們這些南歐以西的民俗的國家裡面作為進行的邦交這是促進我們國內增加邦交的一個立場"},{"start":4989.605,"end":5015.78,"text":"我們以前斐濟的代表好像就是原住民出來的所以其實外交部在這一塊都有到注意到各個族群他怎麼樣在他的職業生涯上做到一個大使這個我們會特別做但是我們不會獨厚一個族群我想這個不會的你也不會要求我們獨厚一個族群我們是公平的競爭希望520之後你們可以這個思考這個議題因為這是對我國"},{"start":5018.722,"end":5019.902,"text":"馬文君委員上台質詢"},{"start":5049.435,"end":5054.899,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長還有我們國安局徐副局長請兩位"},{"start":5063.499,"end":5091.665,"text":"馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨"},{"start":5092.785,"end":5097.606,"text":"我想要請教田次長,您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話,民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證,我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講"},{"start":5125.181,"end":5140.797,"text":"這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解"},{"start":5144.192,"end":5164.078,"text":"我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒"},{"start":5167.059,"end":5181.629,"text":"謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞"},{"start":5183.11,"end":5196.148,"text":"尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面"},{"start":5197.489,"end":5215.128,"text":"你的運用其實是比一般人還更精準的你今天如果用在國內或者甚至對於國人或者甚至是對於國會的議員其實這樣子在外交的訓練上面其實可能是有"},{"start":5216.84,"end":5230.067,"text":"有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱兄道弟那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把他提於詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。"},{"start":5239.522,"end":5246.893,"text":"你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家"},{"start":5255.845,"end":5278.437,"text":"今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高升他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的"},{"start":5279.457,"end":5282.7,"text":"我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法"},{"start":5288.612,"end":5291.654,"text":"可是現在第一階段現任的總統納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續當選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待"},{"start":5319.513,"end":5338.647,"text":"跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化"},{"start":5342.97,"end":5352.364,"text":"中共當然它的壓力也是會有,或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對,我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對,或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法"},{"start":5359.617,"end":5363.059,"text":"在12號的時候就納賽達接受媒體的訪問媒體已經問他這個問題沒關係啊,如果我說問他如果再當選嘛,他如果這麼做不要去推測他的一個說法、態度什麼我說他很可能繼續當選,那我們會怎麼做他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢"},{"start":5388.586,"end":5395.469,"text":"其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對"},{"start":5417.762,"end":5419.364,"text":"委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門"},{"start":5436.059,"end":5440.223,"text":"還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為"},{"start":5462.506,"end":5490.915,"text":"我們厚恥薄彼對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處"},{"start":5491.795,"end":5507.636,"text":"可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊"},{"start":5508.357,"end":5532.243,"text":"也存在阿,他的壓力也存在阿,他的威脅也存在阿,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不用邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese,"},{"start":5533.633,"end":5549.663,"text":"這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的"},{"start":5549.963,"end":5559.931,"text":"可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外"},{"start":5578.985,"end":5608.712,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5611.411,"end":5634.636,"text":"謝謝馬委員 那我們下一位請林楚瑩委員質詢謝謝主席主席有請國安局的徐副局長請徐副局長"},{"start":5640.778,"end":5668.333,"text":"謝謝主席 委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的"},{"start":5669.113,"end":5683.741,"text":"也會利用金錢以及武力方面的勢力來給予我們的友好的友邦來做壓力那麼友邦有自己內政的問題我們能夠插手的部分不多但是我們自己在國內的部分現在有媒體都不斷的釋出警訊說在520之前中國會從然認知作戰那麼確實我們也看到許多來路不明或者是消息用所謂打聽傳聞這樣的"},{"start":5695.828,"end":5716.561,"text":"自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至於出現一些"},{"start":5717.982,"end":5732.941,"text":"給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?"},{"start":5734.212,"end":5750.417,"text":"謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。"},{"start":5751.437,"end":5754.839,"text":"好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":5772.386,"end":5785.742,"text":"我們都有在持續注意它的發展但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息我們也都會及時應處"},{"start":5789.707,"end":5806.321,"text":"好 因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是"},{"start":5807.102,"end":5836.201,"text":"好另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎我們來看一下我這是擷取至北甘相公所"},{"start":5836.741,"end":5856.698,"text":"的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎"},{"start":5858.577,"end":5882.608,"text":"謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,我們會把相關的資料發給你那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?"},{"start":5883.699,"end":5903.375,"text":"這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數"},{"start":5907.879,"end":5921.429,"text":"如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦"},{"start":5934.278,"end":5961.347,"text":"代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的"},{"start":5963.087,"end":5982.278,"text":"成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程"},{"start":5992.591,"end":6020.624,"text":"已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策副局長謝謝委員這個我們尊重我們夜館單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看"},{"start":6021.821,"end":6039.626,"text":"我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在"},{"start":6043.367,"end":6055.179,"text":"所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態"},{"start":6058.393,"end":6077.448,"text":"我們都會深刻的瞭解收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長我知道你不是主觀啦你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是"},{"start":6083.857,"end":6089.519,"text":"我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎"},{"start":6102.503,"end":6106.646,"text":"我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為"},{"start":6118.974,"end":6132.769,"text":"您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容"},{"start":6136.227,"end":6160.824,"text":"時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態"},{"start":6165.084,"end":6180.609,"text":"這的確有那個風險存在,也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方。好,我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀,做出一些相態的形式,讓其他相關的單位作為參考,好嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。接下來請沈伯陽委員上台諮詢。"},{"start":6200.68,"end":6201.061,"text":"有請田次長"},{"start":6210.84,"end":6233.359,"text":"早,那這個因為剛剛楚英委員有提到這個國安相關的事項本來今天也想問但是我覺得這一個我們可能留待剛剛這個主席也有提到啦搞不好在這幾天的機會國安選會來所以我今天針對外交的部分來問那這個第一個我先來講一下因為最近這個風風雨雨本來謠傳說這個今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部來問這個問題"},{"start":6235.38,"end":6251.724,"text":"但是可能因為今天部長沒來我猜可能會到禮拜三禮拜四但不管怎樣我覺得先定調一下我覺得這整件事情其實非常的單純那這一個次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的一個規定109條是這一個國防相關的文書132條就這一次比較爭議性的這個國防以外的這一個秘密那318條是跟這一個公務員有關但是是工商秘密"},{"start":6263.546,"end":6282.488,"text":"其實我覺得在這邊說真的行政跟立法都有自己的分界就好像今天行政上有行政的特權但我不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火立法委員當然也有我們自己的權利但也不代表立法委員有把密件可以拿出來透露的權利這其實是兩件事情"},{"start":6283.549,"end":6304.06,"text":"在這一邊我想藉由這個機會告訴大家像318條公務員他去洩漏的時候他限定的並不是所有的秘密他是限定在工商秘密那109條他是國防的一秘密也就是說目前在我們刑法的規範上面其實秘密基本上是要限定的"},{"start":6304.54,"end":6330.016,"text":"就是他特定的秘密他不是所有的秘密那不然的話這樣會處罰過廣的問題那這一次比較爭議性的132條就是到底這一次呢在記者會被拿出來的到底是不是因秘密這件事情他當然可以討論嘛對不對但是呢我也必須要告訴大家就是請問今天外交部在判斷秘密這件事情不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定還是要實質上去認定"},{"start":6334.08,"end":6356.173,"text":"這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權利做一個判斷好 謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷"},{"start":6358.414,"end":6375.855,"text":"所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑"},{"start":6376.815,"end":6392.982,"text":"所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是百分之百了嘛對不對所以是一步一步往上的倒不是說什麼今天行政單位像外交部他必須要去實質認定這個內部如此詳細的事項"},{"start":6395.763,"end":6419.87,"text":"那我知道因為這幾天這個爭議可能會很大所以我想說在這個前面呢先跟大家講一下整件事情的一個來龍去脈那接下來呢我想針對是今天的這一個問題就是因為今天的題目是在講說就是這個習近平跑到歐洲去這一個的一個過程那我這邊重整了一下就是在2022年的時候呢這個習近平有跟這個普丁見面然後後來呢這個俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭"},{"start":6420.809,"end":6435.241,"text":"後來他有在2023年的時候去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦"},{"start":6435.962,"end":6459.222,"text":"而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家"},{"start":6459.802,"end":6460.142,"text":"邀請國家安全局．"},{"start":6478.627,"end":6479.648,"text":"習近平訪歐後國安之影響"},{"start":6498.261,"end":6515.028,"text":"為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險"},{"start":6517.754,"end":6533.121,"text":"我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下"},{"start":6534.341,"end":6557.848,"text":"我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題"},{"start":6559.989,"end":6577.991,"text":"因為太平島它之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的"},{"start":6579.392,"end":6601.217,"text":"所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興"},{"start":6602.117,"end":6624.133,"text":"這一個呢,我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐啦所以呢,當然我們現在有委員要去,這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程,要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用"},{"start":6624.873,"end":6646.998,"text":"因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面"},{"start":6648.112,"end":6659.524,"text":"基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的"},{"start":6660.814,"end":6682.696,"text":"那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福"},{"start":6683.297,"end":6684.018,"text":"高度的祝福"},{"start":6698.308,"end":6726.218,"text":"那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人"},{"start":6726.998,"end":6752.796,"text":"但是偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他再用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是他連法律框架跟事實都不具備他直接偽造了一個東西然後說我們已經談好了那我很怕說"},{"start":6753.596,"end":6754.397,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":6792.952,"end":6794.037,"text":"國安局副局長"},{"start":6802.852,"end":6826.192,"text":"謝謝主席委員長早安副局長我剛才有稍微聽到您跟林楚英委員的一些對話那我想我還是藉著這個機會來講一下我們官員面對國會議員的質詢的時候他不是禮貌的回應而已他必須有實質的內容因為你們講的每一句話可能他都有他的國際影響力然後現在是越來越重要了"},{"start":6826.952,"end":6837.179,"text":"所以比方剛才提到的說哪一些訪團來會不會造成什麼樣的國安風險你就講出來沒關係為什麼要講出來不然大家怎麼知道有沒有"},{"start":6838.26,"end":6854.527,"text":"所以我還是希望就是說我們每一位官員能夠盡量的針對問題來去提供他的看法他可以不用實質上面的把你說你什麼機敏資訊講出來但是大方向一定要有我想美國的這些官員們不管是商務部長還是他們的情報總監在面對參眾議員的問題的時候我們問一兩個問題他們就是盡量把他們所知道的問題"},{"start":6862.17,"end":6868.733,"text":"主要是在討論習近平訪問這些歐洲的各國那我想請教一下你們怎麼評估這個習近平出訪這些歐洲的國家對我國的國家安全是有什麼樣的影響嗎還是其實沒有影響因為歐洲蠻遠的然後我們直接關係沒有所以沒關係你們怎麼看"},{"start":6888.58,"end":6902.712,"text":"習近平訪問歐洲的對我們國家還是有一定的影響當然他主要是面對就是歐洲去風險化以及他"},{"start":6904.935,"end":6923.772,"text":"對於他想要拉攏法國來穩定歐洲以及要拉歐來治美因為他們之間仍然有經貿跟安全的一些旗艦"},{"start":6933.816,"end":6950.502,"text":"謝謝副局長的答覆那基本上是這樣那歐洲當然有各個國家中東歐國家對我國的立場當然是最近是更加友好那我們之前談到立陶宛的部分就是說他們要把我們的辦事處的名稱來做更改那同時在維也斯中國的第二大貿易"},{"start":6952.384,"end":6973.926,"text":"中國是塞爾維亞的第二大貿易夥伴其中它包含的軍售是僅次於俄羅斯提供給塞爾維亞所以我們可以知道說包含塞爾維亞或者是匈牙利這兩個國家是中國在整個歐洲分化削弱歐洲的能量的一個最好的一個渠道因為他們相對威權相對的有對中共相對的友善那換言之警報人員"},{"start":6974.767,"end":7002.445,"text":"或者是他們的國家安全人員或者是他們的軍方的人員在這兩個歐洲的國家裡面他們當然會放的心力跟資源就更多所以我們剛才提到說習近平他這是訪歐三個國家法國當然就是把這個歐盟的這個職位都全部都一起叫過來來確保歐洲是一個合作的不會被分化的但是馬上習近平接下來去訪問的兩個國家就剛好是分化歐洲的最好方式"},{"start":7002.805,"end":7019.985,"text":"俄羅斯、中國都在這兩個國家有這樣的做法我想知道說我們這個包含我們的國家的跟情報相關的這些部分對於中國的軍售在塞爾維亞還有這個跟對科索沃的這些做法操弄有沒有得到一些相關的資訊我問這個問題的原因是因為"},{"start":7024.128,"end":7039.829,"text":"對於塞國、塞爾維亞、科索沃、俄羅斯、塞爾維亞、科索沃、烏克蘭這些國家的每一個情報戰、資訊戰都是未來我們可以參考的對象,包含他們的輿論戰都是,我想知道你這方面有沒有什麼看法?"},{"start":7040.815,"end":7067.917,"text":"的確在俄烏戰爭以後那中共大概取代俄羅斯的地位對塞維亞有一些軍售那個這個這個應該是沒有問題那至於科索沃的這個部分在某些程度上也似乎中共是應該是鼓勵就是也不排斥就是有支持他做這樣的行為"},{"start":7069.086,"end":7095.069,"text":"好那接下來我們問一下跟520之前的可能的這個國家安全的考量那剛才林委員也提到520之前的有可能中共方面會怎麼出招包含在資源跟資訊這兩大方向資訊的話就是讓我國接受到他們想要傳達的資訊比方說上次佩洛西來台的時候他們就在便利商店等等的這些電視螢幕拿來投放他們想要投放的資訊在另外一個資訊就是說"},{"start":7096.89,"end":7112.052,"text":"換言之就是說斷掉我們的可能的就是不管是之前我們看到海底電纜、馬祖那邊或者是說我們的通訊上面的設備這些或者是油、電、水、天然氣這些相關的資訊你們有沒有做好事先的預防跟強背"},{"start":7113.477,"end":7142.157,"text":"本局結合國安團隊非常關注這個問題因為中共有可能在520之前會利用這些網路的攻擊來操作一些足以影響大眾或是國家安全的一些管路那國安團隊都會密切的注意這方面的資訊然後及時應處並有對外來說明來穩定我們人民的心情"},{"start":7143.698,"end":7156.854,"text":"這個問題是說,比方說在外交部的話,如果有國家,我們的邦交國出現警訊的話,他們會有紅色警訊啊,各種不同的燈號來去做預防,你們有沒有相關的,未來有沒有打算用這樣的資訊來提供給國人?"},{"start":7158.396,"end":7186.076,"text":"有有,這個在國安會的指導之下,我們都有應處的一些程序也就是說在有可能遇到襲擊之前先預先警示,這個部分你們會做嗎?未來會做嗎?會,我們會在最早的時間內收集到通知所有的選擇機關來應處對國民的部分會不會有相關的發表?會,會適時的來揭露來宣布好,謝謝,謝謝副市長,我們來請次長,外交部次長"},{"start":7187.552,"end":7213.124,"text":"請外交部田次長市長早我們剛才提到太平島的議題那我還是講一下就是narrative很重要就是你要用什麼樣的方式去詮釋去輸說我國對此地的主權怎麼樣可以確保說我們的說法不跟中共是重複的、吻合的讓人家誤以為兩國的主權是共同的"},{"start":7214.064,"end":7220.706,"text":"我們對太平島過去到現在將未來我們對太平島都是中華民國的領土如果這句話就跟中國一定切開了切得很清楚所以這個立場是絕對不會變的"},{"start":7244.774,"end":7263.395,"text":"主權上面,第二個部分是中國在南海的說法是什麼?九段線,我們可能是11段,那我們的說法又是什麼?他們倡議的主要的講法是什麼?我們要怎麼樣去definition我們的說法?那這個部分要怎麼樣跟這次選擇要去的立法委員講?"},{"start":7264.136,"end":7264.937,"text":"我想立法委員去一定有他的智慧"},{"start":7283.407,"end":7309.609,"text":"在這個太平島就是中華民國的領土上不應該跟中國唱和好那次長我希望說提供給這些要去的中國國民黨的這些黨籍的或者是在野黨黨籍立法委員一個我們希望的一套的說法避免跟中共是有重疊的是最好是把我們的特色講出來我想這對台灣的主權還是非常重要的是謝謝次長好謝謝"},{"start":7315.42,"end":7319.321,"text":"接下來,請王定宇委員上台諮詢王定宇委員"},{"start":7339.592,"end":7360.78,"text":"市長我們這幾年其實從臺美在臺灣關係法40週年以後臺美的關係一直往上走包含了這個北美協調會改成臺美美國事務委員會然後在隔年我們發現我們跟歐洲的進展也非常的快所以在"},{"start":7363.206,"end":7372.56,"text":"我們看到的是 2021年不管是歐洲議會通過的報告書有關COVID-19或者2021年歐洲外交委員會"},{"start":7374.093,"end":7393.127,"text":"大概是第一次那麼高票通過臺歐盟政治關係及合作臺灣跟歐盟的政治關係及合作的報告及修正提案2021年還有歐洲議會通過臺歐這個臺灣歐盟政治關係及合作報告書等等那在"},{"start":7394.775,"end":7412.008,"text":"今年初歐洲議會還通過共同外交及安全政策共同安全及防禦政策兩個決議案關心著中國升高台海危機片面用武力改變現狀這個都是臺歐之間正向的發展"},{"start":7412.668,"end":7440.691,"text":"那今天我們談到的是習近平到歐洲的訪問坦白講一次的訪問看不出什麼大的改變特別是在法國各說各話他拜訪塞爾維亞跟匈牙利本來就是親中的國家反而是他沒有去義大利因為一帶一路可能生變他原來友好的國家縮小了他能去的地方減少了這個是從拜訪的形式上但本席比較關心的是在"},{"start":7442.695,"end":7445.326,"text":"今年歐盟的輪值國是匈牙利"},{"start":7446.809,"end":7475.068,"text":"唯一的隱憂在這裡也就是說習近平最近訪歐那不管是拜訪的國家的質跟量談話的內容看起來不若以往以前他在中東歐那時候講幾加幾啊就是26加1還多少加1忘記了就是把整個中東歐的國家加上中國產生一個極大的影響力那現在那一些氛圍呢都已經逆轉中國成了歐盟報告書裡面的威脅者"},{"start":7476.409,"end":7501.578,"text":"他們還特別注意到北極那邊來自中國的可能威脅所以本期今天第一個問題要請教的是匈牙利會輪值主席國那這個輪值對於台灣跟歐盟的進展跟發展有沒有什麼影響特別是在我們今年里存有提到我們預計想要簽訂經貿或投資協定這個在今年初"},{"start":7506.121,"end":7521.31,"text":"李存提到說臺歐洽簽經貿或投資協定這個是在今年1、2月的時候提到的所以請問市長有關信用壓力的部分你們怎麼評估這個可不可以請市長幫我回答一下市長請說是"},{"start":7524.788,"end":7549.073,"text":"匈牙利是今年下半年擔任歐盟部長理事會的輪值主席但是因為今年6月份會有歐洲議會的選舉新的歐盟的執委會也必須要在9月、10月才會成立因此其實匈牙利的輪值主席所可以造成的影響在今年下半年是相當受限的他就是輪值的半年嗎?對因為他們的輪值主席有什麼權利?"},{"start":7550.25,"end":7572.566,"text":"他主席其實最大的權力是他的議程的排序但是因為今年下半年歐洲的政治情勢的變遷所以我們認為說當然還是有他的權力但是因為歐洲的執委會跟議會都在重組過程當中今年我們大概站在台灣我們一個海島型的國家我們要特別注意周邊局勢的變化"},{"start":7573.286,"end":7593.991,"text":"日本有可能進行改選不管是6月或9月美國總統大選那歐盟的執委會還有歐洲議會在改選這一些都牽動著地緣政治甚至於獨裁國家用認知作戰去介入這些國家選舉都是我們要注意的所以我們還是回到我們今天的焦點就是說臺歐"},{"start":7595.211,"end":7617.076,"text":"我相信外交部在過去這兩三年應該有感受到臺歐的關係是大幅的改善特別在中歐因為東歐國家不喜歡被人家稱為東歐了他們就中歐國家所以目前你們評估休亞利這個輪值主席剛好遇到歐盟在改選執委會在改組所以這半年的輪值不會影響到agenda的設定你們判斷是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7618.244,"end":7642.511,"text":"因為新的執委會歐盟的立法權是分享的那新的執委會形成之後會有新的執委會的agenda所以真正會主導未來幾年歐洲的這個政局的發展應該是下一屆執委會那你們有關注這些選舉的有沒有可能結構性的翻轉或改變目前看起來應該人民黨團在議會還是會佔多數所以民主派會比較多"},{"start":7643.871,"end":7656.658,"text":"是基本上就是現在的權力結構不會有太大的改變那有關這個臺歐洽簽經貿或投資協定這個事情是一個努力的方向還是有具體的進度"},{"start":7659.371,"end":7680.8,"text":"過去歐盟的這個回應曾經對我們的雙邊投資協定有正面的回應但是後來也失去了動能那因此我們現在主要是要重新倡議下遷比照我們跟美國的21世紀貿易協議失去動能的原因是什麼美國的21世紀貿易倡議有點像BTA嘛"},{"start":7682.64,"end":7699.166,"text":"因為歐盟也是一個大的經濟體那特別英國已經加入CPTPP所以歐盟的動作當然會影響到各國跟台灣的經貿你剛才講說原來有談到這個事情後來失去動能原因是什麼?原因是因為歐中之間的全面投資協議"},{"start":7701.007,"end":7716.664,"text":"因為有些議員提倡有關於新疆的人權問題、種族滅絕等等的被中國制裁因此歐洲議會基本上是凍結CAI也因此可能我們研判也影響到跟台灣洽簽的動能"},{"start":7718.225,"end":7743.49,"text":"這個部分我們想我們繼續因為這個是紮紮實實對台灣經貿跟外交有關係的事情我接下來請教國安局那兩位先請回那個副局長我先講題目啦最近有英國國防部所屬的智庫叫RUSI我不知道你有沒有注意到這個消息那這個是英國國防部官方的智庫他的副所長這個Jonathan他特別提到說"},{"start":7744.95,"end":7773.062,"text":"中國最近這半年到9個月左右的時間大量的購買黃金他指的是他央行就是說他們提高他們黃金囤積黃金的準備量那他裡面這個是英國國防支部提到說這個是不是因應台海可能的衝突或者南海可能的衝突那中國呢要將來因應西方國家經濟制裁的一個手段那管局有沒有注意到這個報告"},{"start":7775.699,"end":7790.45,"text":"有那他講的內容你們怎麼評估就是說中國其實長期持有黃金儲備量大概都在全球第6那前年的話是2100多噸到今年增加到2264噸所以他增加了"},{"start":7793.652,"end":7793.952,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7814.439,"end":7828.385,"text":"這個跟國際局勢應該有關係就是有一些動盪的因素存在那一方面也是大陸的經濟的狀況可能不是那麼的理想人民會轉而搶購這個黃金"},{"start":7832.547,"end":7851.947,"text":"我在國安局的報告裡面好像沒有看到這一塊反而在英國的國防部的智庫看到這一塊就是說我們一般學總體經濟的當一個國家的政府、央行提高黃金的儲備量其實兩個主要原因一個是避險另外一個是信用大概就這兩個作用避險的話就是說"},{"start":7852.748,"end":7873.024,"text":"在經濟不穩定不確定的時期強化對它經濟的穩定那中國有符合這個特色因為它們現在經濟不穩定很多大型的不動產公司跟金融的放貸公司都出問題第二個呢對國家貨幣求穩定就是避免大幅的往下走貶斯里蘭卡就一個例子它整個貨幣等於變廢紙"},{"start":7874.665,"end":7895.433,"text":"那中國央行提高這個黃金的儲備量看起來是要貨幣維穩也有可能另外一個是分散投資啊因為美金跟黃金是逆指標美金跌黃金就漲嘛所以這個是另外一個可能性那另外有一個就是作為避險當你有可能像俄羅斯"},{"start":7896.033,"end":7912.336,"text":"他知道他侵略烏克蘭有可能被經濟制裁可能被逐出Swift將來在國際貿易交換的時候黃金的儲備可以增加貿易夥伴的信心所以他會提高他的儲備量俄羅斯大概是排第五名中國現在是排第六名"},{"start":7913.297,"end":7926.155,"text":"那國安局有沒有去分析中國提高黃金儲備量的主要原因有沒有可能跟武力犯台有關還是他們國內經濟局勢下滑有關維穩有關你們的判斷是什麼"},{"start":7927.185,"end":7945.631,"text":"我們確定就是跟他國內的經濟下滑有很密切的關係至於委員﹚跟臺海﹚跟穩定他們大陸的目前的經濟狀況對於臺海的部分我們會密切的注意你們對臺海的評估是沒有﹚還不確定還是﹚我們在深入研究"},{"start":7946.551,"end":7968.038,"text":"英國這個是屬於國防部的半官方智庫我覺得他們評估了一些鎖本他的分析跟你的不一樣所以我們國安局作為我們國家最高的情報單位我覺得這個是一個很適合延期的題目因為它持續正在發生中那中國的民間的個體經濟大量的買黃金往國外跑那是另外一件事情所以到底是因為他們經濟維穩人民幣維穩"},{"start":7970.499,"end":7979.366,"text":"還是為將來可能發生衝突．被國際制裁來做準備．國安局有責任做好分析好不好是是是 是委員謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請陳培宇委員上台諮詢好 謝謝主席那有請國安局副局長 謝謝請國安局副局長"},{"start":8005.619,"end":8031.675,"text":"謝謝主席 委員長副局長早安我想我們就直接切入今天的命題因為我的時間不夠我想問一下其實為什麼要談今天這兩個命題因為其實在習近平訪歐之後有相關多非常多的資訊尤其是中國方面其實釋出非常多有利於中國的說法那我相信很多國人在看到類似的消息的時候可能也會回過來想那台灣跟歐洲的關係又是什麼所以我們今天先來討論第一個"},{"start":8033.636,"end":8033.776,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":8062.486,"end":8091.716,"text":"我想的確是我們的觀察那的確有越來越多的東歐國家對中國的不滿主要就是一些經濟上的因素還有地區安全的因素這都會制約他跟歐洲的一些關係進展包括他們這些像電動車、電池這些大量的出口那用比較低的價格到歐洲去會影響到他們的工作權以及他們的生活"},{"start":8092.236,"end":8107.311,"text":"這些都會讓這些東歐國家會產生一些疑慮這些都是可能直接就影響到他們的關係對,不過我剛剛已經說了就是我們大家在立法院討論這些事情或者是關心國家大事、國際大事的人可能會關心"},{"start":8108.152,"end":8126.732,"text":"可是如果在民間他們所流放出去的訊息大家看到是很多假訊息就是看起來習近平跟這個法國總統握手很開心啊甚至還有所謂的漂亮的夫人外交我覺得我們國安局或者是外交部在這個事情上相關的私訊澄清要如何用更有效率的方法讓國人清楚的明白相關的爭議"},{"start":8129.383,"end":8131.544,"text":"所以你們會有什麼相關的作為或措施嗎?"},{"start":8152.85,"end":8157.656,"text":"對,因為我覺得這個說明相當相當的重要,怎麼說呢?因為當我們在了解中國跟這些歐洲國家的關係,其實大家很好奇哪些歐洲國家到底對中國是友善的,而友善的原因又是什麼?"},{"start":8173.294,"end":8199.103,"text":"那不友善又有哪些國家那不友善的原因又是什麼如同剛剛副局長您說的有這個電動車電池的問題甚至我們在看到他出訪歐洲之後匈牙利的在野黨他們也提出相關的建議他們說我們如果對中國的投資照單全收相關的投資跟政策會影響到匈牙利本國的民主自由價值同時也會分裂整個歐盟"},{"start":8199.463,"end":8214.893,"text":"向相關的論述我們怎麼讓更多人清楚的明白這件事情對於台灣民主自由的影響我相信如同剛剛您所說的你們會把相關資訊收集然後委由主管機關做更多的對民眾的說明對嗎是的好那謝謝您好那下一個我們來看下一個"},{"start":8216.127,"end":8242.961,"text":"那下一個要問的是其實在訪歐之後習近平總統習近平他在2016年也曾經造訪捷克當時捷克總統他對中國相對是友善不過他現在已經卸任了那現在的總統捷克總統彼得總統他其實已經對外說他說中國並不是一個友好的國家所以我想要請問國安局是不是我們可以解讀成我們在台灣的我們可不可以解讀成"},{"start":8243.641,"end":8269.766,"text":"中國像戰狼一般的不友善不民主的外交政策確實也讓台灣還有歐洲國家的互動算是有一些相對友善的互動往前走我們可以這樣解讀嗎?可以那如果在這個解讀的情況下日前某一位在野黨委員他做了一個公害泄密的動作我相信你們也很清楚那後續這樣的事情假設在發生或者是後續所產生的效應你們這邊怎麼看?"},{"start":8273.104,"end":8292.558,"text":"我們台灣的自由民主是最好的武器我們會聯繫跟我們理念相同的國家我們加強我們的互相的交流那我們可以讓更多的國家能夠理解我們"},{"start":8292.858,"end":8320.477,"text":"但我時間有限我想我就跟提醒國安局自由民主確實是我們非常非常好的武器也是我這個世代非常珍珍覺得非常珍貴跟重視的價值我也希望它可以流傳到我的小孩下一代甚至在更下下一代可是是不是有人也就拿這個自由民主作為一種工具然後散發很多令人混亂的假訊息也好或者很多令人感覺到不舒服的訊息也好我想這都是國安或者是外交單位我們都需要積極保持重視的對嗎是"},{"start":8321.578,"end":8323.28,"text":"主席好,有請國安局副局長請國安局副局長"},{"start":8354.643,"end":8371.97,"text":"謝謝主席委員長副局長早歐洲在德國前總理梅克爾卸任之後現任的法國總統馬克宏對於主導歐洲秩序比德國和現任的總理肖茲更加積極馬克宏總統為了不讓俄羅斯在俄烏戰爭獲勝他認為應該要保持跟中國的關係因為俄羅斯已經逐漸適應西方施加的經濟制裁中國作為俄羅斯的戰略夥伴"},{"start":8383.135,"end":8396.305,"text":"那我想請問一下副局長根據你掌握的資訊你認為法國未來如果想要說服中國減少對俄羅斯的支持總是需要拿一些籌碼交換嘛對吧如果不涉及機密可以方便在這邊簡短說明嗎"},{"start":8405.476,"end":8417.588,"text":"法國跟中國的經貿關係還是很密切,中國可能在這方面會不會給予法國一些優惠或者是合作的機會?"},{"start":8423.348,"end":8426.351,"text":"今天專案的報告主題是會如何影響台灣的國家安全我們現在我國有六艘康定級的巡防艦大家平常聽說的法國拉法葉軍艦"},{"start":8446.132,"end":8460.522,"text":"正在陸續的進行性能的提升而這個升級案就是跟法國合作的那我們都知道當年台灣為了購買這批拉法葉軍艦進來非常的不容易因為涉及到台灣、法國、中國的三國"},{"start":8461.403,"end":8482.629,"text":"的高層的世紀的國際新聞當年中國知道臺法的軍艦交易之後就開始對法國施予很大的政治的壓力導致這6艘軍艦差一點就買不了但是最後政治的妥協是傳進來但是上面都沒有任何的武裝甚至拉法葉軍艦本身就很多杏仁豬園也都被法國洩漏給中共了"},{"start":8483.309,"end":8500.469,"text":"當然現在情況是時空背景可能有所不同但很難讓人不然聯想到類似的情況會不會再次發生請問副局長你認為中國這次利用這種領導人出訪影響我國康定級的升級案的機會有多大"},{"start":8502.369,"end":8524.666,"text":"我們不排除就是中共還是會利用各種機會來干擾歐洲國家友台行動跟台化台歐的關係那不過我據我們的瞭解這一個性能提升案仍然持續在推動不過我們還是要非常的小心中共會利用機會來干擾我們之間的關係"},{"start":8527.581,"end":8540.557,"text":"我想提醒一下副局長因為你們研究情報的其實你們都知道法國主要的是軍工企業跟政府部門其實都有很深的連結其實表示很容易就受到政府的決策影響我國這六艘康定級的軍艦升級案總預算高達台幣432億"},{"start":8547.205,"end":8551.628,"text":"再加上中國憑以基建擾台為了考驗我國的國軍的後勤能力113年2月16號國防部絕標的公告裡面我們已經跟法國簽署完成艦艇戰系載台零附件總金額有24億元等於六艘抗敵級的軍艦升級案總金額就已經超過台幣456億元了"},{"start":8572.703,"end":8596.818,"text":"當然目標就是為了有效的維持海軍的拉法葉艦戰力以應對中國的威脅但也別忘了康定級是我國海軍非常重要的反潛戰力所以還是請國安局要持續的關注千萬不要讓外力干擾到國防艦艇升級案的成果好嗎?是另外還有康定級的軍艦外我們還有幻象2000的戰鬥機是不是也是跟法國買的呢?是"},{"start":8601.144,"end":8618.806,"text":"其實之前有一段很長的時間拉法葉的軍艦案導致台法的關係其實不是很好所以後來幻象戰機妥善率其實也不是很好所以最近台法關係改善之後有軍事的專家指出其實我們從空軍半年來四波的採購動作來看"},{"start":8620.928,"end":8639.318,"text":"其中幾乎都是法國採購相關維修零附件所以這些與法國的軍事交流也請國安局一定要特別的注意還密切的注意臺灣會不會被當作法國跟中國的交易的棋子讓臺灣國家安全被影響到這可能要特別的注意,可以嗎?可以,是"},{"start":8643.908,"end":8668.837,"text":"下一個問題下個禮拜520就是新就任總統即將交接的重要日子同時也是兩岸關係的一個重要的節點那本席看一下國內研究兩岸關係的學者的論點他們普遍認為從3月中共兩會結束到520總統就職的這段期間是觀察中共對台灣下一任總統釋放政治訊息的重要的時間但是這段時間兩岸的"},{"start":8670.117,"end":8689.285,"text":"互動實在太令人擔心了,自從2月份金門漁船翻船事件到現在兩岸都沒有達成共識,然後本席也發現中國是以加強海上執法巡查來當藉口,開始逼近金門馬祖的淨線水域,到現在頻率跟船隻都是一直在上升。"},{"start":8690.225,"end":8699.569,"text":"而且甚至還到上個禮拜還出現了中國的公務船跟海警船編隊直接闖入我國的金門淨線水域那北溪認為北京是在利用這個機會跟我們打法律戰想要擴大管轄權那想請教副局長北溪擔心的是如果我們沒有辦法有效的反制這樣中國船隻在金門馬祖淨線水域進出成為常態那這樣的量變會不會累積變成我們失去有效管轄權的質變呢"},{"start":8720.387,"end":8744.505,"text":"我想我們國軍及海巡的海巡署我們的弟兄都是非常的嚴正的在執法我們也在做防禦的一個動作我想大家都沒有鬆懈我們也都是很認真的在執法我們中共從來沒有放棄以武力犯台的這個選項"},{"start":8745.586,"end":8754.331,"text":"那也不斷地用軍事跟灰色地帶來施壓我們一定會一起收集共軍的這些異常的動態來機先應處"},{"start":8757.625,"end":8758.045,"text":"請田次長委員長"},{"start":8786.98,"end":8815.935,"text":"次長早那台灣目前所屬的外部環境似乎是比以前更加嚴峻那次長認為呢確實從整個地緣政治來看我們確實是受到很強大的壓力但是從內部來看其實我們團結的力量也相對的大那麼如果說從國際間尤其在東歐歐盟方面他們關切台灣的力道"},{"start":8816.795,"end":8829.404,"text":"跟提到臺海安全穩定的次數等等我覺得已經超過以往非常多就是說臺灣整個的價值來講已經受到全世界的關注"},{"start":8830.54,"end":8850.102,"text":"好那其實最主要的影響應該是台灣國家安全應該是美中台三角的關係短期上由美國大選因素長期上美中激烈戰略競爭的態勢已經非常的明確了所以其實對台灣而言是沒有最嚴峻只有更嚴峻的外部環境在那麼嚴峻的情況下那請問"},{"start":8852.044,"end":8858.87,"text":"請問一下次長你認為台灣是不是要有一個具有豐富外交實務經驗的人來擔任外交部長呢?來領導外交部呢?像本席就覺得田次長你那麼優秀又那麼資深其實你蠻適合當外交部長的你是不是有這個意願呢?"},{"start":8872.54,"end":8886.631,"text":"我覺得我現在扮演的角色我很滿意但是我覺得能力還不夠擔當大任我希望能夠在我所學能夠相助新的外交部長這是我的想法"},{"start":8887.418,"end":8899.913,"text":"因為現在的外交部長現在外界就很多傳言民進黨派系的平衡的結果像我覺得來我們來現在來看一下檢視林佳龍是不是合擔任外交部長的職位然後我現在這邊整理出來從2000年到現在歷屆的外交部長上"},{"start":8905.219,"end":8907.58,"text":"上任前相關的社外工作經驗我們可以發現其實近年來的外交部長幾乎都是職業外交官還有相關外交專業的資深的學者出身但問題是林佳龍在接任外交部長前"},{"start":8920.347,"end":8941.727,"text":"社外事務經驗就很少甚至沒有駐外的經驗而且勉強說社外事務的經驗或許就是只有擔任過外交部的無任所大使那請問一下次長請問你會不會擔心國際環境那麼險峻情況下把外交部交給一個社外經驗那麼少的繼任者呢請次長你可以說出你的心中的真心話嗎"},{"start":8943.072,"end":8961.323,"text":"我們林部長做過台中市的市長我了解在台中市做市長的時候就推動過很多城市外交成果也非常之好所以我認為他對外交有他獨特的一個想法跟做法我是高度的讚賞"},{"start":8963.066,"end":8981.77,"text":"好那最後我還是希望外交部能夠在520交接的時候趕快協助林佳龍然後無縫接軌的學習適應的時間因為現在還是時間越短越好因為我們敵人是不等人的啦甚至無孔不入希望能夠這樣去協助他可以嗎?謝謝謝謝接下來請賴世保委員上台質詢"},{"start":8998.718,"end":9009.201,"text":"有請國安局的徐副局長以及田中光次長兩位一起請徐副局長還有田次長我請教兩位長官這個國安會跟兩位的單位跟外交部、國安局什麼關係"},{"start":9025.811,"end":9026.693,"text":"國安局先講國安會是我們的指導的上級是你上級單位嘛請教外交部是不是你上級單位"},{"start":9037.754,"end":9055.661,"text":"國安會是不是外交部的上級單位?我們依這個政府的組織法來說外交部的是屬於總統的職權當然當然但是總統旁邊有個幕僚單位啊國安會是提供總統對於國家安全的一些政策的"},{"start":9057.053,"end":9077.986,"text":"所以對國安會秘書長這個國安會沒辦法管到你們不會吧他通過總統就一樣可以指揮你們我沒有這個意思說他管不到我們我這按照組織法是這樣子我們會相當尊重以及遵循國安會的指導那國安會有沒有常常跟你們有文書的往來"},{"start":9079.653,"end":9091.045,"text":"有沒有 外交部 有 有嘛 有 有 直接發文給你嘛 有有 我們也有發文報告 對不對那這下發文如果下一次發文叫拎杯這樣 啊 這個吳釗燮啊 吳釗燮在網路平台一直說拎杯啊 你們沒有去看一下"},{"start":9103.85,"end":9109.855,"text":"欸!不是拎杯好友,他叫你拎杯啊!要站到底啊!要站徐曉鑫站到底啊!這樣的國安委秘書長以後發文給你寫拎杯!那個...報告...報告委員,有建築文字嗎?媒體一大堆怎麼沒有呢?阿你都不理看不準!中國史...公文書沒有看到啊!是嘛!公文沒有,我講,公文沒有!他的在網路平台這樣寫啦!來來來,請教副局長!"},{"start":9133.168,"end":9134.809,"text":"他以後是你的長官阿是他講林北你覺得怎麼樣呢報告委員好他講他在網路平台裡面講林北站到底剛好我是讀法律的"},{"start":9150.117,"end":9162.657,"text":"每個文字根據不同的人不同的時間他要表達的內容可能評價上都不是很一致所以林北是不是出話我問你是不是出話"},{"start":9164.953,"end":9172.02,"text":"有時候會是出話我問你是不是出話所以我跟委員報告單就這個字來評斷他是不是出話在法院的實務見解不會這麼認定現在有很多包括我可能太不禮貌了有時候什麼他媽的是口頭禪"},{"start":9184.191,"end":9202.682,"text":"法官也會認為說這個不是有刻意的侮辱人的意思所以不同的這個同樣的文字在不同的場合講出來的內容不能一次就單一句話說是不是粗話我想這樣子可能在我們法院這邊所以吳釗燮講林培你可以接受我是沒有看到全文所以我很難評斷阿你媒體讀一下就有啦媒體記者一堆在這裡"},{"start":9213.134,"end":9229.604,"text":"他就臨杯 戰鬥敵 喔實在是 看得容易啊以前只要有人講這話你就講 喔爆出口 爆出話 臨杯是這樣這個假派 他們大小咧 這麼大的一個官 要接國安委秘書長居然爆出了出口 敢不敢不"},{"start":9238.615,"end":9243.559,"text":"可是你長官當然你不敢講話啊 對不對等一下你講話人家委員說你要篡位是不是來 次長講我看你是 這個 這個知書大理啊是不是你覺得講林北豪嗎 請問你次長不敢評估長官的話是不是"},{"start":9263.291,"end":9281.896,"text":"當然這是長官的話我們不會批評但是我們還是要看他在什麼場合講的他公開場合他如果私底下就算了你說私底下、私底下、口頭禪怎麼樣就算了對不對他很大這林北公開場合他網路平台這樣講勒很不好啦應該不是在政府機構的一些場域講的話"},{"start":9292.062,"end":9307.069,"text":"他在Threaded平台裡面講的話非常不好啦這個東西然後他帶領國安會整個國安會我就不知道以後你們這個單位怎麼跟他搭配國安會現在看到的吳釗燮到底的戰狼是不是現在來講我請問次長啊520之前有沒有可能再被斷交原來部長講的最可能兩個國家一個在海地一個在瓜地馬拉可不可能"},{"start":9322.785,"end":9346.339,"text":"跟委員報告危險不危險好像部長沒有提到兩個國家的名字他是說有兩個國家有危機那外面猜測是這個外面猜測我不必言之會但是短期之內應該沒有這個憂慮長期我們會非常非常關注那個副局長520之前或者之後短時間520的5月了"},{"start":9349.181,"end":9356.324,"text":"外交方面有沒有被斷交的危機?有沒有?我們尊重外交部的說法你們掌握到的情勢有沒有?要講話是不是?我們掌握的情勢目前還沒有這樣的跡象"},{"start":9364.549,"end":9377.696,"text":"現在是不是再請外交部請交外交部我們正式幫交國不追求了我們要追求一個叫換我金高很會用詞彙叫做價值外交什麼叫價值外交來來來 市長講一下吧"},{"start":9383.451,"end":9405.419,"text":"價值外交就是台灣現在所擁有全世界所尊重的一個價值民主、自由、人權我們的如果那個當然價值外交文化外交什麼外交都可以但是最重要的要邦交國啊幫外交部成立幹什麼我們一個國家就是要政治的邦交國越多越好越多人承認我們越好而且退縮了因為"},{"start":9408.9,"end":9414.882,"text":"外交不斷地 外交國不斷地 減少了 所以換一個名詞說我駕駛外交 追求 台灣追求的民主自由人權 全世界來支持我們這個叫 歐陵世度啦 你知道嗎就自己外交的 外交部的成績不好 所以只好轉這樣子吳釗燮任內斷交了這麼多國 他還好意思繼續當部長還要做國安會秘書長 還要講林北 我們現在是佛洛克啦 不過"},{"start":9437.831,"end":9442.217,"text":"站在政黨政治的立場、政黨競爭的立場我們歡迎吳釗燮繼續當官"},{"start":9450.681,"end":9466.135,"text":"請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在﹖請鄭天才委員、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在﹖請王宏威、王宏威、王宏威委員不在﹖請鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在﹖請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在﹖請張其凱、張其凱、張其凱委員不在﹖請邱志偉委員上臺質詢"},{"start":9482.055,"end":9499.627,"text":"可惜了可惜了寶貴的五分鐘國安委員會質詢在討論林北到底是不是一個髒話可惜啊可惜啊來謝謝趙偉謝謝那個外交部田市長歐洲師黃師長請徐副局長"},{"start":9503.081,"end":9514.291,"text":"委員長我先問一下那個立法院的選情Moseda跟Simonite後來最新的狀況是怎麼樣好像是Moseda是第一輪大概40幾%46、47報告委員您可不可以靠近一下麥克風我們聽不太清楚"},{"start":9530.897,"end":9559.49,"text":"現任總理跟現任總統現在現任總統是Moseda他好像是目前第一輪是領先嘛對不對對那會不會超過50%不會不會那就第二輪第二輪就是52626號所以526第二輪就是得票率前第一輪得票率前兩位就是現任總統跟總理嘛那你們預估啊因為現任的大使是剛過去那黃大使黃市長你最清楚"},{"start":9560.546,"end":9585.482,"text":"如果進入第二輪是不是現任總統他這個當選機率比較大一點一般的預測跟這個政治觀察家他之前所發表的言論會不會影響到臺裔的關係就是說他會不會這個在他新當選之後這個把臺灣跟立臺灣的代表處做降級或者把臺灣改成臺北有沒有這種可能性"},{"start":9586.349,"end":9613.101,"text":"在競選期間他有做過這樣的發言但是在昨天12號的時候記者再問他同樣的問題他是說他會持續跟台灣發展文化跟經貿的深化這不衝突啊所以這不衝突啊我說他跟台灣降級成台北跟台灣這個持續深化文化經貿關係是不衝突的我問一下那個黃市長"},{"start":9615.319,"end":9641.778,"text":"那你在立法院多久?三年左右所以這兩位Moseda跟Simonotti都是你的朋友對不對?那你預估呢?以過去你的努力我們都肯定你不僅涉處然後這個牌理關係在實質上的互動也非常密切國會的交流也非常密切那你預估他如果又是Moseda當選"},{"start":9643.089,"end":9655.659,"text":"他會不會真的去做：把臺力關係降級：把臺灣趕成臺北這是一個假設性的問題立陶宛他是內閣制的國家我們當初設出的時候應該是半總統制吧 國防外交應該是屬於總統職權"},{"start":9665.883,"end":9692.514,"text":"他依據憲法他可以比如說任命相關的人但是事實上國防外交的決策我不希望把台灣改成台北但是你要持續努力你知道有這個問題可能會發生但是你應該責成那個次長應該責成現任的代表現任的大使趕快去把這個關係能夠更穩固不會因為他新連任之後改變對台灣的這個代表處的這個名稱"},{"start":9695.05,"end":9718.697,"text":"那當然中國的壓力也是很大因為我看國安局跟這個外交部的報告一樣是做評估那外交部的評估是稍微比較正面你的評估第一點是歐盟逐漸凸顯歐中關係是對手的論述第二點就是說法國展現對歐盟對中國的一致立場對不對這是你們評估嘛"},{"start":9720.55,"end":9741.976,"text":"歐盟當然也包括匈牙利那國安局的評估呢歐盟個別國家包括匈牙利塞爾維亞現在不是嘛法國當然也是歐盟個別國家將平衡發展對中關係到底歐盟對這個中國關係有沒有一致還是未來未來是"},{"start":9744.48,"end":9758.162,"text":"繼續深化一致還是會朝向這個經貿跟這個政治把它分開變成說這個歐盟對中政策還有有分裂性或者議題的這個差別性這個誰來回答"},{"start":9759.604,"end":9777.974,"text":"那個徐副局長報告委員我想議題他們持續會有差異性但是個別國家為了經貿的理由他可能會跟中共有一些接觸我想這是我們要注意的地方但是基本上剛才講到那幾個差異點是存在的所以說個別國家"},{"start":9781.095,"end":9785.199,"text":"每個國家跟中共多少少都有一些經貿往來,這個都是我們在持續觀察的對象"},{"start":9808.8,"end":9835.618,"text":"那我們這個歐盟國家裡面親中立場比較明確的如果你不方便回答你是要再跟我講你說親中立場比較明確歐盟裡面我是覺得有些親中立場明確有些是比較模糊有些是反對所以這些你就是要把這個等級劃分出來然後要請外交部或相關部會去針對這個比較親中的國家我們加強對他們外交作為是"},{"start":9836.95,"end":9839.472,"text":"另外一個小議題這個這個因為我高鐵趕不上了就繼續問這個境外這個再一分鐘"},{"start":9852.613,"end":9881.26,"text":"這個我的臉書常常因為都是我的幕僚在幫我管理臉書所以我臉書常常被冒用被冒用太多了已經大概五六次了我就請警察局他就叫我去下架有沒有掌握這個特定人士包括我們有可能接觸到國家機密或者我們有接觸到政策、立法有沒有可能這些被假冒的來源國是來自於中國"},{"start":9882.349,"end":9910.018,"text":"我們有很多數的個案請國安團隊去追查最後都是在境外境外當然有沒有包括中國他還有一些跳板所以也有港澳也有在外國新加坡在中國或者港澳你要特別注意另外一個你再看一下這個他直接問我說啊這個他們是歐亞什麼歐亞研究中心"},{"start":9911.564,"end":9917.779,"text":"他說這個要請我這個寫文章這個要跟我合作我想這個是誰啊"},{"start":9922.549,"end":9943.306,"text":"時間的關係,簡單說明,不然就到委員辦公室說明好不好我們這部分有掌握有掌握齁,你們聽過這個歐亞發展研究中心,還是我是個案還是有好幾個人有同樣的這個問題之前就有掌握到這一個,等於是這個組織所以他就利用這些來,比方說你幫他寫個文章,他就拿你的文章去當樣子謝謝,時間的關係"},{"start":9954.851,"end":9960.996,"text":"羅民財委員 羅民財 羅民財委員不在 請洪森漢委員上台質詢請回答吳田次長請田次長"},{"start":9981.285,"end":9981.305,"text":"委員長"},{"start":9995.492,"end":10015.558,"text":"那在520這個交接的時刻其實我們確實要非常感謝外交部過去包括領務局其實過去的努力讓其實現在台灣的護照擁有170個國家的免簽包括落地證、電子簽證這些待遇其實都相比於中國是非常非常多的倍數"},{"start":10016.718,"end":10044.843,"text":"那在護照的辦理上其實人別的辨識其實非常的重要那所以我們現在看到幾個狀況外交部在尤其是護照辦理上面的人別辨識的時候當然我們有時候不希望太鬆也不希望太密這個太密如果弄到這個警報一直響或是讓大家困擾也很奇怪最近我們收到一個案件我想跟外交部這邊來請教那這單其實並不是針對個案那我也不是要苛責第一線的人員"},{"start":10046.798,"end":10064.692,"text":"現在我們其實看到有一隊他其實是依照這個釋制748號施行法也就是我們一般在說的婚姻平權的法案來締結關係的同性伴侶A女士跟B女士那發生一個狀況他們帶小朋友去辦護照但現在的狀況是請看這頭影片"},{"start":10067.314,"end":10090.433,"text":"這小朋友的A這個A女士是小朋友的生母B女士其實是小朋友的養母因為其實我們也過了這個相關他們有這個收養的關係但很奇怪這禮物局的承辦人刷了生母就是A女士的身份證系統出現紅字但這個改刷B女士的身份證紅字卻又消失了這個部長、次長"},{"start":10094.514,"end":10094.974,"text":"技術上的問題我想請林務局局長回答"},{"start":10119.511,"end":10143.988,"text":"謝謝委員 這個問題我有去做了解那基本上我們的就是我們第一線櫃檯的同仁他在處理這個護照的問題他會有一個標準作業的程序那他使用的這個電腦系統會有所謂的防呆機制防呆機制他裡面會就是說如果這個案子需要注意哪一些的他會跳出來"},{"start":10144.668,"end":10161.093,"text":"那這裡面跳出來是有譬如說包括監護權、一些提醒,裡面是沒有就同性婚姻這部分會有任何的提醒所以這個第一線人員的處理可能有造成這個當事人或許有誤解"},{"start":10163.334,"end":10179.768,"text":"局長我想我就做一個很直接的要求包括我們在法規或機制上面有沒有在這個同婚的法案通過以後做進一步的去做調適那符合其實可能各種可能會發生的情境這部分可能要請聯護局這邊再做一次檢視"},{"start":10181.269,"end":10208.975,"text":"第二是說包括你剛才講到我們第一線人員的訓練或相關的管理這事情有沒有可能其實大家可以把這事情做得更周全一點這部分那避免我們看到現在一般的人去申請護照的時候會遇到這樣子的困擾這部分我就請領務局來一個月的時間做一個比較清楚的檢討好不好這應該沒有問題是謝謝委員那接下來我要是要請教田次長的事情是這幾天我們看到在黨齁"},{"start":10210.015,"end":10235.737,"text":"那針對上個禮拜大家討論到這個洩密的事件我週末看到一個非常讓人擔心的狀況說災黨接下來可能想要透過在委員會裡面這個輪番的質詢接力棒式的質詢希望來改變或者是希望來給外交部壓力"},{"start":10238.12,"end":10248.745,"text":"那給外交部壓力是要來請外部要改變你們在很多法律行動上面的選擇次長你們會被這樣的做法施壓嗎?"},{"start":10250.698,"end":10267.925,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得我們會選擇法律跟我們的專業做出最佳的判斷所以你們在在這個事件上面這當然是大家非常非常關注的事件上面你們做出你們的選擇的依據會是基於法律是嗎"},{"start":10269.105,"end":10270.046,"text":"跟國家的安全"},{"start":10299.525,"end":10325.536,"text":"該要堅持的法律底線我認為我們的行政部門必須堅持如果連法律底線行政部門都無法堅持那未來可能大家會非常大的質疑我們的行政部門各種的施政各種的執行它的依據是什麼它的標準是什麼它的規則是什麼它的秩序是什麼所以我要請外交部這邊"},{"start":10327.732,"end":10351.435,"text":"我認為接下來在這個禮拜裡面這個問題這個議題還會被持續的討論也許會有很多的挑戰但我同意剛剛次長說我們必須依據法律來作為我們外交部在這個事件上面我們的判斷跟我們的選擇這部分我也希望次長把這樣的意見給帶回到部內這是一個法律問題"},{"start":10353.087,"end":10377.083,"text":"這是一個國安問題這不是一個朝野的問題這不是一個朝野政治的問題我希望我們可以把這個議題跟這個問題的本質我覺得我們要把握清楚在這個基礎之上來應對各方可能會提出的挑戰我覺得這是最重要的事情我的今天的質詢在最後我這部分還是想提醒次長這件事情謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10383.991,"end":10394.914,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本次會議由王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供"},{"start":10407.884,"end":10414.349,"text":"在今天是國安跟外交的兩個單位這攸關台灣我們就是我們所有現在不管是國家的利益也好或者整體的國家安全也好尤其在520的前後我相信大家都應該要可以更謹慎一點那在這裡還是剛剛大家有提到國家利益跟國家安全為重所以我們也希望"},{"start":10437.966,"end":10438.146,"text":"本日會議到此結束"}]}},{"id":"15904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15904","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eadc364aa3d15180a507b0e10fad6422fc3be8d109af184be46a89e58b094d03ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  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四、第七條修正通過。 五、增訂第七條之一修正通過。 六、第八條、第九條均不予修正維持現行條文。 七、第十條趙委員吳祁銘等人所提修正都已通過。 八、本次會議審查通過之條文相關法之用與授權主席及議事任員整理。 九、備案審查完均凝聚審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推起吳釗祺委員、祺銘與院會討論時作補充說明。 五月九日討論事項一繼續審查海洋保育法草案計時一案"},{"start":1863.49,"end":1882.728,"text":"二、審查《海洋保育法》草案及其案。請參閱。委員高金素梅說明提案要旨。決議《海洋保育法》草案共十八案。依第四條、第六條、第七條、第八條、第九條、第十二條、第十三條、第十四條、第十九條、第二十條至第二十三條、第二十九條及委員楊瓊玉等二十人。"},{"start":1883.808,"end":1909.157,"text":"委員羅廷偉等18人提案第34條委員羅美玲等17人委員莊瑞雄等20人提案第29條臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第28條及委員吳祁銘等18人提案第29條委員高清、宿美等5人委員蘇巧慧等5人委員張宏祿等4人委員牛許廷等5人委員徐玉珍等7人委員徐玉珍等4人所提修正動議及委員蘇巧慧等5人"},{"start":1910.7,"end":1923.727,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等4人及委員高金、蘇美等4人所提附帶決議均予以保留。 二、名稱第一章章名、第二條、第三條、第二章章名、第5條、第10條、第11條、第三章章名、第15條至第17條、第4章章名、第26條、第5章章名、第28條、第30條均照行政院提案通過。"},{"start":1930.251,"end":1946.636,"text":"三、第一條修正通過四、委員楊瓊英等20人、委員羅天偉等18人、委員蘇巧慧等16人、臺灣民眾黨黨團及委員高金素美等22人提案第二條均不予採納五、委員蘇巧慧等20人、委員羅天偉等18人、委員羅美玲等17人、臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條"},{"start":1947.176,"end":1971.977,"text":"及委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第4條均不予採納。 六、委員高金素美等5人所提修正動議第7條之1不予採納。 七、委員楊瓊英等20人、委員羅廷偉等18人、臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條及委員高金素美等22人提案第9條均不予採納。 八、委員楊瓊英等20人、委員羅廷偉等18人及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條均不予採納。 五、委員賴瑞隆等18人提案第14條不予採納。 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條不予採納。"},{"start":1975.72,"end":1993.939,"text":"第18條 趙委員、高金素梅等20人提案第20條修正通過委員楊瓊英等20人、委員羅廷偉等18人提案第24條及委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第21條均步於採納委員楊瓊英等20人、委員羅廷偉等18人提案第25條委員蘇巧慧等16人提案第7條及臺灣命中黨黨團提案第25條均步於採納"},{"start":1998.393,"end":2002.674,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第26條不予採納委員楊瓊英等20人委員羅廷偉等18人提案第26條均不予採納第24條修正通過第25條修正通過臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條不予採納第27條修正通過討論事項暫行保留部分修正動議及附帶決議均令定期繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":2025.165,"end":2036.467,"text":"請問一下我們上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤沒有議事錄確定然後繼續進行本日議程請宣讀"},{"start":2045.916,"end":2061.767,"text":"邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法進行專題報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":2064.549,"end":2090.489,"text":"三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就營運情形紀錄和因應新媒體發展趨勢進行專題報告．並備質詢。 宣讀完畢。好,本人議程所立的報告事項合併詢答首先我先介紹一下在場的委員我們有蘇巧惠委員王美惠委員"},{"start":2093.858,"end":2120.32,"text":"好,繼續介紹一下列席的官員原住民族委員會常務副主任鍾新華教育文化處處長楊振兵社會福利處的科長李佩軒財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長馬勞斯財團法人原住民族語言發展基金會董事長馬耀孟"},{"start":2123.201,"end":2147.981,"text":"執行長徐偉勝科家委員會政務副主任委員周江傑義文傳播處處長廖美玲財團法人科家公共傳播基金會董事長陳邦枕總經理莊盛宏"},{"start":2150.875,"end":2174.74,"text":"勞動部勞動關係司副司長黃琦雅行政院主計總處基金預算處科長周明正好,我們現在進行報告請原民會的副主委鍾新華就兩個專題一併報告,謝謝請問副主委你要幾分鐘的時間?六分鐘好,給你六分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":2178.584,"end":2205.194,"text":"主席、各位委員、還有本會所邀貴委會針對財團法人文化事業基金會及語言發展基金會有關搬遷整備事宜暨調動工作地點或員工各項權益合乎勞動基準法以及營運情形暨如何營運新媒體發展趨勢作專案報告以下分幾點來說明一、前言本會每年捐助原文會每年的預算是4.62億元"},{"start":2207.505,"end":2232.796,"text":"今年也補助廣播電台1.3億與已發基金會2.9億元。 針對永久會址興建工程的部分,因為工程已達40%以上,去年年底合破2.89億元。 二、原文會、言語會有關搬遷員工相關權益的部分,本會捐助成立原文會及言語會以來,未有專屬的營運空間。"},{"start":2235.011,"end":2255.965,"text":"每年租賃辦廳公社需要花費大量的租金以及搬遷成本約需要3200萬元。經本會協助原體永久會址興建計劃並奉行政院在108年11月29日核定由桃園市市政府來代辦興建並由本會編列經費計17億39萬2000元補助二基金會來興建原住民族語言傳播大樓永久會"},{"start":2263.477,"end":2273.462,"text":"會址新建工程由本會、原文會以及原語會及桃園市政府新建工程處來簽訂私方的契約。委託新建工程待辦永久會址主體"},{"start":2274.642,"end":2294.934,"text":"建屋的工程在111年3月16日開工預計114年3月2日竣工在114年1月1日四樁工程開工114年12月31日前完工並進駐本大樓將成為原住民族語言文創以及媒體的重要據點"},{"start":2296.328,"end":2314.221,"text":"本會主委一將主任委員也曾出席112年4月26日委員會在第5屆第一次董監事會監察聯席會議並建議董事會在搬遷過程中務必特別關心員工的居住權益、交通、親屬就學等問題"},{"start":2315.382,"end":2334.047,"text":"而且應該建立與員工以及工會暢通的對話平臺本會也依據監督管理要點來規定列席原文會每月的董事會議也透過董事會的會議就員工權益、永久會址等重大議題提供相關的具體建議本會在113年4月23日與原文會、工會以及原語會共同商議員工搬遷權益"},{"start":2340.325,"end":2365.964,"text":"原委會提議新建合宜住宅方案本會表示進行充分的評估包括土地的取得以及後續公共建設等程序同時也需要與桃園市政府溝通討論土地釋出的事宜本會也要求原委會提出具體的規劃方式以立本會相關措施來商議以確保計畫合法性以及可行性並協助其推動"},{"start":2367.406,"end":2394.433,"text":"原委會有關營運情形及如何營運新媒體發展趨勢的部分本會主委在第五屆第一次董監事監察聯席會議時表示為了營運新世代媒體的環境原委會也需要發展新的媒體事業希望原委會延提規劃成立新媒體部門應用創新思維以及創新技術來擴大族人的接觸層面並完善社會"},{"start":2395.809,"end":2417.166,"text":"對原住民族文化的正確理解與認同原文會雖然已經在110年於原文會文化行銷部下籌設新媒體組但仍是任務編組所以原文會在今年3月29日已經初步規劃中長城計劃的工作項目在4月22日具體修正計劃內容也報會"},{"start":2419.481,"end":2436.153,"text":"來做審議,其中也包含了新媒體策略,後續將協助委員會將忠誠計劃抱怨審議。  四、策進作為本會也將持續關注兩基金會就員工搬遷權益配套措施,像通勤補助、遷居補助以及"},{"start":2437.714,"end":2466.076,"text":"住宿補助等相關工作期程的進度本會也會透過每月列席業務會董事會瞭解基金會當月執行各項業務之進度以及重要議題一將透過通訊軟體工作群組與兩基金會持續良好的溝通和反饋機制與確保信息的流通以及進度的掌握後續將密切追蹤基金會與新媒體發展方面的需求與困難並提供相應的資源以及解決方案以上的報告"},{"start":2468.971,"end":2486.409,"text":"好,非常謝謝鍾慶華副主委,你好像對於你們都在你們的這個報告裡面都是講著協助盤點串聯然後你們還要這個就搬遷小組他們的權益問題好像今天報告都沒有看到"},{"start":2487.915,"end":2515.211,"text":"那你們是怎樣待會質詢的時候才要一一的再問嗎你的報告好像都是比較文字性都沒有看到你們具體的作為是什麼那請你們待會要準備好不然的話我們都不知道今天排這個專案報告就是請你們把這些問題給提出來解決但是你們好像都是一樣協助盤點串聯原委會跟原委會他的業務合作的資源持續強化語言傳播媒體效應"},{"start":2515.811,"end":2540.213,"text":"可是該怎麼樣協助然後盤點了然後要怎麼串聯你們也沒有講啊這一點是作為召委的我在這邊必須要提醒你們那待會質詢的時候希望你們能夠明確的說明一下該怎麼做好不好不然的話今天我們排這樣子的一個請你們來做專案報告好像就是有排跟沒排是一樣的道理啊"},{"start":2541.358,"end":2566.306,"text":"這一點必須要跟你們說明一下好繼續既然是這個很重要的原文會跟原語會我們現在也請原文會的董事長許瑪拉老師來告訴我們你們有一些搬遷員工上面的需求還有未來你們在傳播或者是這個其他的部分要怎麼做好不好給你你要幾分鐘"},{"start":2567.625,"end":2577.153,"text":"五分鐘,好,希望您的五分鐘能夠讓我們在場的委員們都看到你們的問題點,然後該怎麼處理解決,謝謝。請西馬拉奧斯董事長。主席、各位委員、今天馬拉奧斯非常榮幸獲邀大院郡委員會"},{"start":2595.206,"end":2612.671,"text":"進行專案報告,由衷感謝大院及各位委員關心並支持原住民族文化事業及媒體傳播發展。行政院在109年1月12日合併原住民族語言傳播大樓興建計畫預算共17億元,"},{"start":2616.247,"end":2629.892,"text":"為推動永久會址興建及員工福利基金會與員工企業工會特別成立了員工權益小組至今我們共同已經召開了9次的會議"},{"start":2631.697,"end":2657.927,"text":"辦理搬遷意願的調查共同研擬員工搬遷權益的配套措施內容包括交通補助、遷居工作環境的優化、托育補助以及以符合勞動基本法調動五原則相關的規定同時我們也跟原語會合作定期召開兩基金會的合作平台"},{"start":2659.308,"end":2679.729,"text":"針對我們兩個基金會的搬遷配套的方案還有合作經營的策略進行規劃然後來推動從109年合定到現在營建成本受到市場物價波動及疫情的影響還有國際原物料上漲的因素"},{"start":2680.31,"end":2695.884,"text":"以及缺工的相關因素成本持續的上漲急需修正永久彙止興建計劃的經費以符合未來營運的需求此外,為因應全球新媒體發展趨勢"},{"start":2697.472,"end":2713.799,"text":"本會也在既有的預算跟人力進行任務編組在文化行銷部成立新媒體組於11年1月正式運作每年實際用於新媒體新增業務的預算約為350萬編制緣額4名"},{"start":2719.662,"end":2738.822,"text":"以優化提升社群媒體經營效益為目標透過品牌建立與內容的製作分眾化經營各社群的平台曾於近年有關原住民族重大的憲法案件包括110年原住民狩獵案"},{"start":2740.223,"end":2753.72,"text":"11一年原民與非原民婚生子女的身份法案、希拉雅族原住民身份案等等將複雜的法律條文、事件的脈絡、問題的爭議轉化成淺顯易懂的社群圖文懶人包。"},{"start":2758.986,"end":2776.297,"text":"也在每屆金曲獎介紹原住民入圍歌手以及作品獲得了單月260萬的網路觸及人次的熱烈迴響又在東京奧運、世界棒球經典賽等等的重大國際賽事介紹原住民運動選手並結合時事"},{"start":2780.82,"end":2800.985,"text":"探討回復族名、消除刻板印象、體育專業、職雅等等的議題當原住民地區發生重大意外和天災也透過社群即時性傳遞部落族人情況例如COVID-19疫情、南投仁愛鄉豪雨的災情"},{"start":2801.638,"end":2824.19,"text":"零四、零三的花蓮地震等等為建立全會數位媒體化各部門也共同拓展原文會媒體影響力建立社群網路媒體的成果豐碩因此為建立長遠發展本會也已經同步向主管機關人民會提案規劃成立數位媒體專屬部門"},{"start":2825.791,"end":2849.328,"text":"你增列每年4000萬,增加25名的員額,希望透過專屬的機構來促進我們的永續經營。為落實原住民語言跟傳播功能,也請各位委員大力的支持。有關相關的細節跟規劃,我們待會再報告,也一併向各位提出。以上報告,敬請指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2851.742,"end":2861.751,"text":"好謝謝董事長的報告說明繼續我們請原委會的董事長馬耀國務報告您要幾分鐘好四分鐘好謝謝"},{"start":2869.123,"end":2872.607,"text":"主席、各位委員。 本基金會就攸關搬遷原住民相關基金會同仁的關鍵那基金會在這個案裡面"},{"start":2885.862,"end":2900.615,"text":"做了五次員工的這個搬遷的會議小組的會議所以一開始本基金會就跟我們基金會的同仁有做過兩次以上的這個內部意願的調查那麼兩次的意願調查裡面從"},{"start":2906.259,"end":2927.504,"text":"分析的過程中有94%的同仁意願上是同意要到這個新的會址那在內容上是因為工作環境跟語言上的持續所以在事先先做了這個介紹之後我們做內部的意願調查那麼之後我們基金會又從實"},{"start":2929.184,"end":2954.535,"text":"成立了這個搬遷小組搬遷小組的成員有勞方跟資方特別是有外部的一起研商有關符合勞基法包括基金會內部的工作規則所訂定的能夠符合這個部分上我們特別也實際的請同仁從自己的住處包括從自己的從辦公室"},{"start":2955.435,"end":2974.224,"text":"搭車或者是開車搭捷運到我們新的工作地點來確認所支出的費用跟時間那也透過同仁在這個實際的前往之後依據的時間跟經費來做精準的這個討論這是第一個"},{"start":2977.185,"end":2991.573,"text":"另外一個在搬遷的全域小組裡面我們也邀請了我們的董事會也透過了董事會裡面的討論董事會特別決議要我們基金會全力關注"},{"start":2993.034,"end":3018.015,"text":"員工的相關權益同時也建議我們跟研文會做平台的建立所以我們在跟研文會也打有13次之多的專案小組的討論除此之外我們也把我們的共同意願共同的共識會提交給研明會讓研明會也知道現在基金會兩個基金會所做的一切努力跟讓研議會"},{"start":3020.057,"end":3023.881,"text":"原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法"},{"start":3035.475,"end":3055.678,"text":"新的同仁來應徵的時候我們都會讓同仁知道我們會在兩年相差不多兩年會搬遷到永久會址這是我們每一位同仁都知道包括新舊同仁都知道那麼最後一件事情是在過程在這個過程裡面我們會充分的把我們的需求跟言文會的需求"},{"start":3056.578,"end":3065.883,"text":"會整起來然後再跟研明會來提出也希望大宴能給我們同仁在語言的發展上能夠無後過之憂以上說明"},{"start":3068.807,"end":3092.397,"text":"非常謝謝馬耀國務董事長的說明我想今天對於新媒體營運情形這個客委會的報告其實做得非常好它的數據從這裡大家可以看一下我就不請董事長來報告了可以嗎因為你們的數據非常的清楚那我們期待委員會以後應該要撈出這樣的數據讓我們可以看到而不是只是在文字的敘述上面"},{"start":3092.957,"end":3093.237,"text":"我們現在進行詢答"},{"start":3120.748,"end":3146.916,"text":"本會和原民委員發言的時間是四加二必要的時候四分鐘必要的時候延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間是四分鐘我們上午十點三十分減止發言登記臨時提案我們截止停出的時間是十點在本會委員舉行完畢之後呢我們就請問各位委員有沒有意見我們再處理好嗎好謝謝現在進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":3156.758,"end":3157.299,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3168.942,"end":3195.714,"text":"那 董事長好那我們今天本來題目是要講說這個大樓搬遷的部分不過我既然看到了這個題目以後我們就把這個原民台再下去看看說搜尋一下看看最近原住民電視台有沒有什麼新的新聞等等結果我就看了這個網站然後我的關鍵字就是上面這個打下去原住民族電視台打下去以後你看看跳下來的是什麼"},{"start":3196.454,"end":3217.986,"text":"很正常吧 你自己有打過嗎 董事長你有打過嗎應該是跟這個一樣嘛 差不多嘛 對不對好 那所以他就跳電視原住民文化事業基金會 看起來不太像原民台的名字啊好 那我就又往下往下往下 欸我看到了一個最像電視台的 就是這個原住民族電視台16 然後所以我就把它按下去了嘛 因為我要看電視台嘛結果你看看這個電視台的這個網站"},{"start":3223.066,"end":3232.491,"text":"你看到沒有 這個 影像2013年欸2013年的這個這樣對嗎這是2013年立法院質詢的影片好 再下一個2024年的5月節目表稍未刨出等一下 你們的網站這樣這樣對嗎"},{"start":3247.674,"end":3260.72,"text":"這個報告委員這個因為我們過去是在公共電視歷史公共電視所以我們有一些資料是還在掛在公共電視那其實我們現在已經有新的網站我本來要嚇你一下看起來你沒有被嚇倒對啦"},{"start":3263.021,"end":3282.634,"text":"這個網站是錯誤的啦這個是在2013年你們跟公共電視台還合併的時候的這個網站還在上面嘛可是你看我剛剛這樣查詢下去是不是很多人如果沒有像你們這樣這麼熟悉我們這麼熟悉原民台的歷史不知道啊原來他跟公共電視在一起後來又分開了"},{"start":3284.296,"end":3299.573,"text":"這個的話是不是照我剛剛這樣的邏輯下去我是用原住民族電視台當關鍵字下去查查了以後找到一個最像電視台的這個連結點下去點下去以後竟然是這個那你覺得我對原民台的印象會是什麼"},{"start":3300.334,"end":3306.998,"text":"當然不會很好啊所以我們現在這麼認真要對一個我們的辦公居住甚至電視台的營運大樓搬遷有做這麼好的計畫對不對今天我們特別還來質詢這個問題那我們的網站都搬家這麼久了這個部分是不是也應該要處理一下"},{"start":3319.424,"end":3330.79,"text":"是 報告委員 我們這個盡快跟舊的就不需要的話可以移除嘛或者隱藏或者任何技術方式這技術嘛 對不對我們盡快跟公共電視今天我們就跟公共電視聯繫討論一下那再增加我們搜尋上關鍵字是 便利性"},{"start":3335.453,"end":3359.363,"text":"好你看看因為它到現在它上面還是因為系統的關係可以自動跳2024年5月所以大家一定會覺得說這個網站還是有動啊怎麼會動成這樣好那我們再回來事實上現在原人會原民台的網站我必須說做得非常好做得非常好我們來看一下下一個這個其實因為你做得多好我就讓大家自己去看了啦這個我就不是特別說了"},{"start":3360.423,"end":3370.992,"text":"甚至要更進一步說我要稱讚原民台其實大家在最近的表現真的都很不錯去年的金鐘獎我們也入圍了9項節目甚至是像樹人大冒險還直接就得獎了動畫類是第一名嘛我們就直接得獎了這麼好的節目真的要感謝大家努力用心可是啦"},{"start":3381.281,"end":3388.704,"text":"那我今天因為本來要質詢你們嘛所以我又想下去我本來想要截圖放一些這個樹人大冒險的畫面上來可是董事長你看樹人大冒險每一集都因著作權限制僅供原始頻道收視欸"},{"start":3397.368,"end":3397.408,"text":"請問這個問題是哪裡?"},{"start":3419.636,"end":3432.864,"text":"我們過去對著作權確實在跟委製單位或是內部的製作上在著作權的態度比較我認為是比較保守那今天我們會在 老實說我也當過製作單位啊你忘了對啊"},{"start":3435.666,"end":3464.171,"text":"所以基本上還是預算的問題嘛因為事實上你付他多少錢那你得到的版權你可以在多少的載體上面能夠去播出你也必須讓製作團隊你不能說我付他70萬、90萬的製作費我在所有的地方通通都可以播我覺得這樣不合理你知道製作動畫多麼的昂貴嗎一集是很貴很貴的所以如果是這樣的話那他當然他先你付這個錢他只能在原事上面播放"},{"start":3465.091,"end":3482.17,"text":"他沒有授權你YT如果要在YT要在其他部分的話要另外加錢坦白講我覺得這合理啊好可是那所以說歸到最後還是錢的問題吧預算的問題吧是的就是我們在委制的過程製作單位他也會很堅持他的著作權"},{"start":3482.831,"end":3498.704,"text":"對這一塊我覺得我們應該用預算的方式去把它買斷或是用其他合作方式以前我在幫公共電視製作的時候我也很不希望是直接賣斷這麼便宜就買斷了這辛辛苦苦做的作品我也不希望是這樣所以說歸到底還是預算的問題"},{"start":3499.284,"end":3518.694,"text":"那預算你到底要爭取到多少才能夠足夠這樣而且我們今天跟這個課委會來比較坦白講我們做了一個比較其實這個課委會的部分課委會第一章第一章那課委會的部分和這個課台啦課台和人民台的部分你看看我們這個載體的部分其實課台的部分"},{"start":3519.494,"end":3545.831,"text":"坦白講還是多了一些喔他們還是空間比較多了一些尤其是在podcast我們今天也在講podcast的部分因為親子這個族語的節目部分尤其是幼兒節目部分podcast有兩種啦一種就是上班族開車當背景音樂嘛但另外一種是什麼是還不會看字的小朋友是最好的那麼你的親子幼兒節目有沒有辦法轉換成podcast的這個部分就像我自己也有一個podcast親子節目啊"},{"start":3546.391,"end":3574.351,"text":"所以在這個狀況下你是不是可以增加費用去談到這個部分Podcast的部分是不是可以更有企圖心的尤其是在學齡前兒童的節目這個部分我是認為是原民台可以再多折磨了董事長同意嗎這也非常同意委員委員果然是專家就是我們對Podcast的經營這今年也很大的成果那在下個月我們會跟所有的節目42個節目會全部上Podcast"},{"start":3576.252,"end":3595.724,"text":"那另外就是我們也會跟spotify來做連結然後播出我是覺得應該要認真爭取預算啦如果不夠的話主席很厲害我們可以跟主席一起來爭取我們繼續努力謝謝委員謝謝主席好非常謝謝巧惠委員的質詢謝謝董事長繼續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":3605.652,"end":3612.097,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們原民會請原民會的中副主委是嗎好 謝謝委員好主委好 副主委好請問一下我們原住民族的傳播大樓 渴望就是在2025年我們就啟動我們就是在搬到我們桃園"},{"start":3633.374,"end":3650.68,"text":"所以這個就是變成永久的會址但是不過就是到現在就有很多的爭議就是關於就是我們的員工各項的權益部分一直有爭議包含就是基本居住、交通"},{"start":3652.3,"end":3669.88,"text":"還有就是子女照顧等等的問題而我們根據勞基法第十之一條的規定僱主調動勞工工作的地點就是過眼僱主給予必要的協助就像說有很多人的反應本來原"},{"start":3673.504,"end":3699.441,"text":"言語會跟原文會的話就是都在臺北但是現在統計班到桃園這樣的時間就是通勤的話就成本很高是否提供交通的補貼這個部分是跟委員報告因為這個在勞基法有明定就在勞基法有明文的規定必須對員工的權益保障那知方跟老方在討論這個部分的話這是一個對話平臺"},{"start":3701.311,"end":3713.152,"text":"我們也都願意去面對來共同協助他們所以原文會也好、原語會也好這個部分都有在討論對於交通的補助的部分甚至在居住的部分都有一些討論跟對話"},{"start":3715.28,"end":3731.716,"text":"所以現在還沒有討論出來還是說還有就是因為剛才有說居住但是居住目前在桃園就是那個租宅租宅原住民保障戶就是總戶數叫5%但是以桃園的是有12個住宿社會租宅來說是否滿足我們的員工的"},{"start":3739.823,"end":3757.054,"text":"記住的需求,還有我們公司我們原民會裡面的成員不一定是我們全部的是原住民,雖然則他的5%以外這樣子的抽籤競爭力很大,所以應該如何來協助和補助這樣"},{"start":3757.975,"end":3783.739,"text":"是,麥委員是不是我們請基金會來說明一下目前的進度。喂,你好。那就原語會來說,第一個就是我們已經從實際跟請同仁到桃園或者是跟桃園原民局一起來討論怎麼去做興建那個有關社會住宅的部分,這已經有兩次的會議,這是第一件事情。第二件事情我們內部已經有做充分的討論,能夠補助他們到這個租金一年"},{"start":3784.259,"end":3784.399,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"},{"start":3802.93,"end":3824.767,"text":"好 謝謝因為我們關於就是我們基層員工的權利所以這個部分我們要非常的重要因為有住得好這樣子大家工作才安心對 所以第二項我想要請教一下因為我們現在就是教育部鼓勵大專業校要設原住民主學生資源中心"},{"start":3825.507,"end":3825.547,"text":"主席"},{"start":3848.168,"end":3868.122,"text":"跟委員報告,這個部分我們經費也有跟在教育部討論,而且人員的部分明年也會增加兩位。喔好,這樣太好了,因為要幫忙、要退協、要救協、要輔導,這樣一個人真的做不來。對,好,所以這樣子的資源中心的話,就有可以協助嗎?對,總不必要運作正常一些。"},{"start":3868.502,"end":3873.964,"text":"像說我們是在就讀大專業校的我們的原住民學生就是修學還有退學都比較偏高這個部分是不是說我們可以有什麼的協助這個部分就是有掙扎兩個的話這個是"},{"start":3889.169,"end":3894.393,"text":"對大家很有幫助還有要請教一下以我們的數據統計來看就是我們原住民族的學生他們有很多學習跟他們的就業有落差所以導致我們的學生得到文憑後他的工作與他的學習不符所以嚴重落差造成他們的"},{"start":3918.989,"end":3939.914,"text":"高等的教育無法就是發揮這個部分就是需要說我們的產學合作啊還有就是我們要學習的部分是不是可以如何協助新鮮人面臨的問題還有如何讓我們的畢業生就是可以建立一個相關協議自用的機制"},{"start":3941.522,"end":3946.909,"text":"更為包括針對大家專生我們都有一些暑期工讀甚至有一些職場體驗的這樣的一個機會讓他們也能夠到"},{"start":3949.943,"end":3952.204,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請三、邀請四、邀請五、邀請六、邀請七、邀請八、邀請九、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、"},{"start":3973.088,"end":3998.285,"text":"要去討論的是說我們的學生為什麼就是退學還有就是要去就學的偏低因為有很多的反應他們就是學了但是他們要去做的工作就跟他學的不一樣這樣子的話他就會去不同的領域所以他的薪水就偏低了這樣導致大家要去學習我畢業這個也沒有用我沒辦法就是讓我的專長發揮"},{"start":4003.388,"end":4024.5,"text":"人民會這邊要多多關心更為包括我們也跟教育部青年署還有勞動部都有一些這樣的串聯合作然後就我們的學生的部分就比如說青年職涯輔導或YOU STAR這樣的一個計畫都有在推動好謝謝謝謝好非常謝謝麥瑞珍委員謝謝中型化輔助委謝謝繼續請我們的媒會顧主席質詢"},{"start":4033.783,"end":4040.248,"text":"主席、我們這裡副主委請,總副主委還有請我們的勞動部那個副市長好,勞動部的副市長早早早早,在這裡本身要跟你們談到一個今天我們所說的說要有台北前往郊區投資在這個當中有兩個地方"},{"start":4063.1,"end":4065.422,"text":"一位在南港、一位在我們這裡附近,整兩天要前去投降,因為環境的關係,所以在這個明年底,我們就開始準備外遷"},{"start":4077.54,"end":4086.845,"text":"然而這裏面,我們的董事長現在一直在這項是在台北上班,現在要去唐雲上班在這個環境裏面,您剛才說有問過、有調查過,但又有很多人要繼續去那裡上班,來回答一下"},{"start":4101.563,"end":4108.009,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請基金會來做一個說明?好,我們有請石摩老師董事長還有邁亞國務,謝謝。委員,早安。早安。目前你們這樣調查開會的費額目前為止,有多少人會想不下去?15%。15%?15%要留在台北這裡。"},{"start":4131.897,"end":4135.747,"text":"15%的樓在台北本身再請教一下樓在台北哪一個地方"},{"start":4142.241,"end":4161.075,"text":"我們未來會在台北租一個辦公空間來就比較緊急的業務做辦理所以大部分我們會有一個總部的概念這樣也不對你們的做法是這樣"},{"start":4163.497,"end":4163.957,"text":"這樣是不對的捏"},{"start":4179.856,"end":4193.335,"text":"你是不是說 請坐我想是說15%是說不要去桃園要不要怎麼處理那可能就是我們可能就會依勞動基準法去之前"},{"start":4194.293,"end":4209.026,"text":"七次前：就會有他的福利：來,我們的問題來了。我們辦公的所在這樣啦。 喔,辦公的所在?要不然你們未來辦公的所在,你們整個要去刷去永久下,你們就要整個刷,又代罷沒辦法?"},{"start":4210.578,"end":4212.239,"text":"因為這個新聞的製作在台北市我們會有一個辦公空間比較方便台北市的新聞的辦理這樣"},{"start":4240.778,"end":4244.381,"text":"所以我說是怎樣才能兩個都刷去永久的同意這是一個問題本來跟你們說的你們要來你們所有的機會現在辦公室要做什麼一星期來"},{"start":4257.812,"end":4263.115,"text":"先讓我,再來本席要跟你說的就是說,你說之前會啦,在這個總統你們在這裡問的時候,那我覺得在這個85%裡面,我願意去討論,因為搬遷嘛,就是對這個所在去討論上班,但是在"},{"start":4281.883,"end":4282.943,"text":"我認為我非常滿意,但到了通行時,我認為我越來越不適合那個環境,我更愛坐車,跟小孩的問題、中小孩的問題,跟族群的問題,因為我在台北住好,但我為了環境,"},{"start":4302.848,"end":4310.299,"text":"我亦派出頭路,我去到桃園,坐一、二個月薪,我感冒我沒適合的時候,要如何是好來。 請回答謝。"},{"start":4314.193,"end":4325.758,"text":"報告委員,我們對員工在搬遷到桃園以後會有三個比較重要的部分,一個是租屋的補貼,第二個是...沒有啦,我現在都知道要租屋、要大、要什麼,員工人跟人的時間,有時候我在南部,我來中部住不下的時候,我也會想到要回到南部的時候,這個步驟都有啦,只是我覺得我沒辦法適應,"},{"start":4342.446,"end":4353.712,"text":"去打一、二個維新我認為沒有適合這樣他是要資遣還是會離議的來,你回答一下來,勞動部來,副市長來是,委員好來,副市長報告,剛剛委員詢問的是說如果是搬遷調動當下我如果沒有辦法過去因為他其實工作地點沒有,我一定晚一點要去是是是"},{"start":4371.201,"end":4371.881,"text":"委員說的是有很多搬遷的這種個案這個就是所謂的猶豫期"},{"start":4390.249,"end":4393.914,"text":"目前在法律面上面我們規範基本的是搬遷時候的離職但是呢很多的因為有工會很多工會會跟僱主談委員關心的就是你要讓我的員工有一些猶豫期"},{"start":4405.188,"end":4407.689,"text":"對,這是重點,我現在今天主席剛才在問到重點要示範的時候就是這個重點那委員提的猶豫期我們很多的企業會跟工會談在協商在搬遷之前會談猶豫期要多久猶豫期到了時候員工還有一個選擇那那個選擇如果員工要離開的時候是不是優於法令給予一些補償這個會在雙方協商的時候來議定下來喔好,來那個副主委"},{"start":4434.685,"end":4440.328,"text":"剛才這樣說的,你有聽到嗎?對,有聽到,因為不願意的話當然非自願離職必須有一些事業的給付,但是那個緩衝期的話我現在就是跟你說,跟他們選擇的,是有時候我們真的去跟他們的環境,我們又不適合的時候,跟他們說我又當時沒有這個選擇的時候,是不是有這個阿蘇米亞?也謝謝委員,這個有先見之明,因為有人搬過去還會猶豫"},{"start":4462.922,"end":4465.243,"text":"所以我們會跟基金會來討論是不是有一個緩衝期讓員工有這樣的一個思考我認為你若要緩衝期的心我們在這裡跟你建議最起碼要三個月因為這個三個月以後適應那些安排好"},{"start":4480.39,"end":4480.63,"text":"謝謝美會委員的質詢"},{"start":4499.119,"end":4521.292,"text":"很遺憾你們今天在這個說明裡面並沒有而是我們的委員質詢呢你們才清楚知道必須要有三個月的期限讓他有一個適應期今天為什麼也是請這個療動部來的關係就是我們這些搬遷員工的權益的問題其實你們開了那麼多次會似乎好像沒有到重點裡面而且也沒有告訴我們你們怎麼解決好不好謝謝那繼續請徐宇貞委員質詢"},{"start":4532.95,"end":4540.443,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請客委會州副主委跟原民會中副主委好,有請中副主委以及客委會的副主委,謝謝"},{"start":4545.912,"end":4562.22,"text":"我想請教一下根據立法院的預算中心的資料顯示客家電視台跟講客廣播電台這幾年來的節目製播率都不高大概在110年到112年8月底客家電視台節目的自製比例"},{"start":4562.68,"end":4585.484,"text":"大概是33.2到38.2之間而講客廣播電台的自治比例是44.7到46之間也就是說客家電視台跟講客廣播台這自治率都會達五成那客家電視台566號正式加入公廣集團之後節目的自治率是否可以提高到五成以上請回答"},{"start":4586.284,"end":4595.627,"text":"老委員報告,在之前應以從日報與行言開始,人家還要開始統計資料,你不想非...等一下,可以先暫停嗎?因為我沒有那個...好我們現在就是暫停一下,來請...好,請問委員,請問主席對,提供耳機翻譯的好,請問委員"},{"start":4613.704,"end":4614.965,"text":"好,翻譯機開啟了嗎?請問是余政委員可以嗎?那請副主委您再說。好,請問主席,請問委員的職高。從一般有行人到一般有行人,還有建設大樓,還有傳播基金會之間的節目,"},{"start":4642.912,"end":4650.439,"text":"您在1993年經營開始您的職格作為節目的比例未增加到五上以上。然後委員報告。"},{"start":4651.94,"end":4671.905,"text":"就這部分希望說我們既然已經編列那麼多預算成立電視台跟廣播電台希望自治率都要提高那尤其是我想我們在看電視的時候常常發現有些電影台老是重播一些舊電影就像周星馳的《唐伯虎點秋香》跟《九品芝麻官》至少我想也重播過100次以上了"},{"start":4672.285,"end":4691.081,"text":"大家都對於劇情倒背如流也覺得支付這個有線電視台的費用卻只能看舊片都覺得很不划算所以有人就把家中電視的這個有線電視台就直接退掉然後就看網路的這個節目而客家台跟園民台政府也每年編列很多預算在這邊"},{"start":4691.741,"end":4695.284,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請三、邀請四、邀請五、邀請六、邀請七、邀請八、邀請九、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、邀請十、"},{"start":4719.445,"end":4745.625,"text":"兩位副主委請問覺得客家台跟原民台的節目是越盛越香也要跟這個周星馳的糖果點綴香要多看幾次才能品嘗出味道嗎?請回答好,好,那我委員報告齁,針對黑咖甜食台的部分齁,當然其實從去年演藝工事發事務發自後齁,演藝黑咖甜食台時間的演藝工場的公佈節目齁"},{"start":4747.082,"end":4760.727,"text":"所以,因爲爲了希望,當然採討了委員所提到的這家族的節目的比例,應該會提高,但是在下的情況下,因爲朝因爲共窮天使法律的首長自豪,因爲了因爲是敢於公共"},{"start":4761.243,"end":4767.267,"text":"因為這個部分,如果大部分都是舊的節目的話,你說怎麼可以吸引,不管是我們原民台,或者是客家台,副主委有什麼要補充的嗎?謝謝委員,因為其實原民"},{"start":4784.339,"end":4805.984,"text":"十六組文化非常的豐富在語言文化的節目應該做直播性的節目應該不是一件很難的事所以我們這個部分我們是不是也求精進能夠做改善OK 現在只有25%你們可以精進的空間非常的多所以再麻煩不管是客家台或者是這個園民台都一定要為受眾者提供最好最新而且讓他們覺得很有興趣想看的節目然後我們也可以發覺就是剛剛講的其實都只有兩成多"},{"start":4812.165,"end":4839.307,"text":"但是說實在我們也沒有看到目前不管是客委會或是園民台這邊有在認真監督反而是客委會跟客傳會卻都認知作戰比較感興趣像是1977年的那一張照片我們可以看到110年12月24號跟漢草文創事業股份有限公司簽約那在111年5月大概才這個底定確認"},{"start":4841.608,"end":4867.904,"text":"一旦是109年就開始分年編列預算,副主委請問對媒體表示投資這部電影要五千萬而客船會109年才成立的基金也不過才五千萬所以客船會準備全部收哈在這部電影嗎?不成功變成人嗎?那我們也一直看不到客船會分年編列的五千萬在哪裡"},{"start":4870.079,"end":4873.12,"text":"姓毛主委、委員會主席,雙方的任務報告是以提督及提請人的總相片提供希望未來參考市場運作、市場挑擺、提供對客家的提示"},{"start":4885.578,"end":4890.561,"text":"本時想請教您的是五千萬是編列在哪裡?五千萬,因為當年又建築所有傳播基金會,當年又補儲傳播兩年的預算但是你們是111年才簽約才確認,那為什麼109年就開始編列預算?"},{"start":4907.469,"end":4915.454,"text":"按照委員報告,從1898年開始,應建築5,000萬份核核傳播基金會。從1898年開始,當年核核資源委員會又建築核傳委員會兩餘餘生,所以當年又編列相關的餘生來挑戰核核養殖執照。當年都有編列。"},{"start":4928.663,"end":4931.305,"text":"每年編列預算也就是說109年你們開始編列預算那111年才開始執行這個電影的確認它的什麼分廠大綱啊一些的內容才確認那我不曉得前兩年的經費是做在哪裡另外就是根據你們客傳會的預算書第8頁的一些重點工作計畫我們發覺"},{"start":4950.319,"end":4962.97,"text":"今年度我們編列的預算大概就五千萬會在各類的這個電影投資裏面但是客人會投資1977這部電影就要花五千多萬那請問其他的這個客家電影的計劃是都沒有嗎?那委員報告 因為當然除了這種相片的這部電影之外 因為當然很有勞因為香港傳播基金會在合作其他的電影"},{"start":4976.681,"end":4977.001,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請三、邀請四"},{"start":5000.939,"end":5008.806,"text":"客委會這邊能夠審慎的來評估這樣的這個分配所有的你們的經費是不是得當以上 許莫委員謝謝宇珍委員的質詢謝謝兩位副主委 謝謝繼續我們請劉許廷委員質詢"},{"start":5030.137,"end":5031.623,"text":"好 謝謝主席 原民會有請"},{"start":5042.115,"end":5064.888,"text":"主委早安上次我們質詢的時候就有討論到搬遷的問題今天針對勞動權益的部分來做一下探討原住民語言傳播大樓花了我們17億的公帑在去年的12月底在青埔已經上糧當然有一段時間大概2025年大家就可以有一個遷入但是今天討論的重點是"},{"start":5066.489,"end":5090.286,"text":"這個搬家姿勢體大嘛我想請問一下這個原文會跟原語會兩個要進到桃園青埔的新大樓總共有多少員工受到影響應該是全部吧全部嘛也就是原文會的270個人跟原語會的46個人嘛對不對全部都要搬家嘛對不對照理說那是永久辦公室那永久辦公室嘛沒錯所以這些員工你們現在都坐吊子他們都住哪裡"},{"start":5095.313,"end":5102.804,"text":"基本上像研議會的部分大部分分散在北部桃園跟我們桃基的雙北市"},{"start":5105.225,"end":5124.192,"text":"所以看起來影響應該有限囉?如果都在因為我們現在講北北桃北北幾桃都是所謂的一日生活圈會有哪些衝擊?你們收到哪些不滿的意見?第一個就是那個住宅住宅第二個是交通還有一個是兒女教育兒女教育?好大概是分這幾個問題我先從交通的問題來探討因為"},{"start":5125.632,"end":5150.237,"text":"照理來說清普已經算是桃園交通相對便利的地方基本上機場捷運、高鐵等等算是滿被重視的地方他們交通的問題是哪一部分呢?還是離現在住的地方太遠了?要通勤?剛委員在做說明現在目前是因為大部分的同仁這樣要到搭便利的地方有一段路他不一定是在那個主要的交通路線這是第一個所以我們做那個盤點之後有做那個實際的盤點"},{"start":5155.223,"end":5169.262,"text":"你講清楚一點你說他現在是從臺北出來然後到桃園不方便還是從桃園要到你這個新的大樓不方便是從住的地方因為他分散在不同的大臺北區是這是第一個要到"},{"start":5170.083,"end":5173.285,"text":"我剛剛聽前面委員的答詢,你們說15%的人是不願意搬遷的就對了?"},{"start":5192.364,"end":5207.55,"text":"對我們上次調查是15%這很可怕因為我剛剛聽到你回答的時候你講說如果他們不願意的話就要直接支錢這個不太好啦不是就是如果他不願意如果他不願意到新的工作地點那當然就是依法支錢他要付他的福利啦"},{"start":5208.13,"end":5226.625,"text":"我們今天要討論這個題目其實就是希望配套很完整啦如果真的是我們這樣子然後之前的15%的員工還大部分都是原住民弟兄的話這恐怕會引起很大的社會爭議啦所以不要這樣說啦我們再補充一下就是我們在9次跟工會的討論已經達成更多的共識越來越多員工會移動"},{"start":5228.005,"end":5251.091,"text":"這根據勞動基準法10條之一的規定這個調動工作不得違反勞動契約以及等等那其中有一條想調動地點過遠的時候僱主應與必要之協助所以其實法院上給了這個原民會一定的空間我覺得應該要編列合理的交通運轉來做一些補貼這個具體事實如果調查出來後整理應該是沒有問題你們現在有方向沒有"},{"start":5251.94,"end":5279.618,"text":"因為我這我不得不先說一下因為你報告裡面第三頁有個還蠻好笑的你說因應搬遷權益要先興建合宜住宅我跟你講興建合宜住宅是好事啊就是員工宿舍本期是支持不管是產業也好政府也好給員工一定的這個住宿的基本待遇本來就是照顧勞工的一環這是我是非常贊成的可是問題是你現在才講說我要研擬興建合宜住宅的方法會不會有點太晚啊2025都要搬家了那你合宜住宅什麼時候才來因為包括就是他們的需求有提在"},{"start":5280.556,"end":5299.459,"text":"4月23號他們來我們會裡面有提出這個需求不過這個方案都需要評估因為有沒有土地這個都要去做面對處理好那你既然提了有沒有方向上我是不反對的但是你既然提了那你有沒有明確的時間合一住宅的這部分因為這個部分的具體具體的計畫我們請他們在5月22號再提供給我們"},{"start":5300.578,"end":5328.408,"text":"五月二十二號再提供給我們他明年就要搬進去了那這等合一住才蓋好這中間三、五年要怎麼辦因為合一住可能是比較難一些這是我要講的第二個問題啦就是說你長線來你如果有辦法跟桃園市政府妥善的合作本席非常支持你需要我幫忙協助溝通我也樂意扮演這樣的角色看看有沒有好的土地可以做這樣的配套但是中間總有過渡期嘛這三到五年也許更久這中間的過渡期你的方案是什麼現在看起來剛剛在答詢的過程中其實講得很清楚就是通勤的問題嘛是"},{"start":5329.889,"end":5338.99,"text":"從台北怎麼樣快速的送到青埔中間是不是轉三次車會不會很麻煩怎麼樣規劃一定的路線或者是提供一定的交通津貼你們這部分現在有沒有方案跟草案"},{"start":5339.944,"end":5346.007,"text":"這個部分等基金會把計畫提給我們,我們大概就會編在我們的預算裡面。會編預算嗎?"},{"start":5346.007,"end":5364.956,"text":"是是。好,除了大概,你們要補充嗎?報告委員,就是我們其實現在優先的是社會住宅的方案,那桃園市政府也願意配比比例給優先給我們兩會這樣,那合一住宅其實是我目前想比較後進的方案,比較快是社會住宅。"},{"start":5365.276,"end":5382.941,"text":"社會住宅優先搬入社會住宅就對了本期要提醒因為桃園的社會住宅應該需求量也蠻大第二個桃園境內的大眾運輸還有待加強這當然我們希望中央可以全力來支持但即便有社會住宅你可能還是會遇到通勤的問題再怎麼樣有政策的安排都會有過渡期"},{"start":5384.801,"end":5413.256,"text":"所以我希望過陸期我會看到一定的專案的預算的編列不管你是講說我補貼通勤的交通因為我轉車的次數變多了也許你補貼1200月票啊或怎麼樣也是一件好事或者是福島租屋嘛你講社會住宅是一種那不見得所有人都住得到嘛這個還是有這個排序的問題嘛那沒有住社會住宅的人是不是用福島租屋的包租代管或什麼周邊的他可能距離很近嘛我也沒錯就是我們在近期會提前用包租代管的方式讓同仁能夠有住的"},{"start":5414.56,"end":5439.854,"text":"你的目標很單純就這個15%最好是可以歸零不要有員工因為你的搬遷而離開這才是正確的方向現在這個比例大概更低了那你不要講15%之前很恐怖因為之前我們的調查是這樣目標就是用多種政策手段而且尤其是過渡期要把它安排好我們希望這個搬遷的工程可以順利如果你需要跟桃園市政府來做溝通我非常樂意扮演這樣一個角色 可以嗎謝謝委員好 謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":5440.314,"end":5440.894,"text":"有請中副主委"},{"start":5467.506,"end":5491.903,"text":"安委好副主委是我想請問一下這個今年的5月份前幾天的新聞八載族向原民會申請成為台灣第17族有沒有這件事情有有那最後也是沒有還沒有成功嗎"},{"start":5493.872,"end":5500.709,"text":"對,我們已經受理他們的申請,那我們親自到南投,我們派處長去受理他們希望能夠被列為原住民族這樣的一個申請證明"},{"start":5503.275,"end":5525.203,"text":"你要知道我今天為什麼特別這個我也不是說因為有很多的這個語言快速的流失那你要知道像八載族他也不是只在南投他在台中也很多有新竹以南到南投都有對啊那其實他很多的也都在台中啊對不對"},{"start":5526.443,"end":5544.699,"text":"有一個問題就是說如果我們現在的政策跟法定規定如果它不是我們認定的組裡面它這個傳統語言的補助教學我們就沒有辦法補助很多 對不對"},{"start":5545.78,"end":5570.459,"text":"我們目前的拼譜組也不是法定原住民族但是我們從98年開始有一個推動小組就語言文化部分都有協助補助這10年來大概也是已經超過10億的補助語言的附贈我跟你講喔就我手頭上的資料雖然是有補助但是補助的金額沒有像其他的族群那麼多"},{"start":5571.933,"end":5589.692,"text":"而且像這個八載族他在2011年他本來要去參加我們文學獎結果主辦方就說八載族並非官方承認的民族所以取消他的資格"},{"start":5591.552,"end":5619.913,"text":"有很多法令上的問題是不是目前好像也會遇到這個狀況不過我更正一下剛剛講的是10年來大概1億多不是10億我正要問你你趕快說了我手頭上的資料就沒這麼多我正要我為什麼要跟你講這個你知道嗎比如說有一個我們語言發展法裡面這個原住民族"},{"start":5621.13,"end":5640.598,"text":"語言的搶救計畫你知道這個族語的師徒制有沒有這個事情有我覺得這個非常好欸是這個讓很多原來不會然後他這個啊讓很多這個年輕的一代啦年輕的一代他馬上很快的學會他的族語對不對對沒有錯師徒制運作起來還蠻成功的"},{"start":5645.445,"end":5672.846,"text":"對啊 你看那個少族的師徒之舊非常齁 兩三個很像所以我現在我要說的就是說雖然啦齁有一些像八載族或其他有一些族他還沒有變成正式成立的族不過語言文化的流失現在是很快速的是 對不對是 沒有錯沒有錯嘛齁 在這個情況之下"},{"start":5673.976,"end":5697.957,"text":"我們要不要在法令許可的範圍內啊比如說像這個師徒制的這個不然我看你再過幾年這些語言都不見了耶八載族的語言什麼樣的語言都不見了他雖然現在還沒有官方正式的承認不過這些語言我們必須要留下來吧這些文化我們必須要留下來吧不然哪一天你"},{"start":5698.658,"end":5728.373,"text":"你跟他講說我承認你承認你你的文化什麼都沒了甚至還沒等到你承認的話可能他什麼都沒有是各位報告因為憲判是17號就已經把他們列為是南島語系民族的後裔所以其實如果政策決定這個計畫的狀況我們應該在語言文化的部分就可以更多的依註在這個裡面所以現在可不可以做應該是可以做而且我們現在也針對他們開始在開始登記希望能夠證明原住民這個部分"},{"start":5728.732,"end":5756.021,"text":"那我們其實從98年就開始做只是這個經費的部分可能挹注的不是那麼多我知道你們之前有做你們有去做很多的這一些你有去找他們的棋老甚至有錄音有什麼有保存他們的語言嘛我都知道嘛但語言是活的嘛語言不是在收音機裡面錄音帶裡面或YouTube裡面你去這好像就變成歷史了啊"},{"start":5756.921,"end":5781.521,"text":"對不對這些人都是活的啊 對不對我的意思是說在法令許可的範圍雖然他還沒有正式成為我們原住民族中的一族不過語言文化我覺得你們也可以去跟文化部合作啊大家一起找經費拿錢把這些語言文化要留下來啊我覺得這個才是我今天跟你說的重點"},{"start":5782.322,"end":5795.46,"text":"他還沒有成為原住民族的一組沒有錯不過語言文化你們應該也可以去找文化部去找什麼一起找資源一起找至少把這個語言文化留下我覺得這個一年花不了多少錢"},{"start":5796.738,"end":5815.323,"text":"你像司徒志一年也花沒多少錢啊對不對我覺得我們要積極的先處理這一塊啦不知道您的看法我贊同委員的說法所以之前我們也跟文化部還有合作就是對那個台南的北投洋也有對他們的這樣的文化做附贈"},{"start":5817.223,"end":5836.899,"text":"我說的你們有做一點沒有錯但做到我認為還不及格啦你要多做到幾個你至少要及格把文化保存下來啊那有很多啊不是只有單一啊我要全面的趕快去搶救這些啦好不好沒有問題我們會把它放在我們跟文化部的平台把它做一個討論好謝謝委員好謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢"},{"start":5843.914,"end":5851.997,"text":"謝謝 也謝謝中副主委繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢 待會在召委高層說明質詢結束之後我們休息5分鐘好 謝謝謝謝主席 我們有請我們的中副主委還有我們的周副主委 中副主委跟中副主委 謝謝黃委員長"},{"start":5875.445,"end":5900.977,"text":"兩位副主委早安早今天這個議題其實跟台東其實都有很多連結因為台東雖然人口少可是族群特別多元也原住民、客家族群都有那這邊就叫兩位副主委一些問題第一個我想請教的就是我們的我們中副主委是"},{"start":5915.191,"end":5926.424,"text":"所以我們其實這麼多年一直在推動就是五語言的振興這個計畫那其實之前看到在基層特別是幼兒教育這邊有一定的成效"},{"start":5927.915,"end":5949.786,"text":"那這邊要給我們的委員會來肯定不過其實我們還是有發現一些問題所以我們在2023年12月我們提出的這個原住民的一些相關的一些特別是在教會這邊的計畫這邊獎勵計畫但我們發現不管是學校或是教會他回到家庭的時候發現一個問題就是在家庭這邊沒有辦法連結"},{"start":5951.192,"end":5973.102,"text":"就是大部分的家庭裡面說母語的還是不高啦你有沒有辦法營造家庭教育裡面能夠有說母語這件事我覺得對母語發展其實是相對重要好像學校都會講嘛可是其實一個禮拜一堂課對他母語發展其實很有限除非原本就在部落裡面部落裡面都說族語那在都會區裡面他有沒有這樣的環境"},{"start":5975.661,"end":6001.173,"text":"再多一句我們還是有一些族語教學的相關工作包括語言潮這個部分的推動好 謝謝我想這個部分都是還是要再加強是 是那另外我想要再請教就是說我看到今天的工作報告這是我早上看到的那我想有些不了解的地方我想要請教兩位主委"},{"start":6002.048,"end":6029.859,"text":"那在我們的那個客戶會公共傳播基金會裡面提到是在113年要編列1500萬的預算來投入在我們新媒體運用那你們預計要增額40個人來完成相關的一些計畫那雲林會你編列的是4000萬你增額25元那你要做的成效大概在哪邊因為早上其實不管是召回其他的"},{"start":6031.3,"end":6032.26,"text":"四千萬的部分我們有一些項目"},{"start":6064.431,"end":6081.327,"text":"我們提六年的中長程計畫,原民會假設合訂我們,我們可以有兩億的預算去推動整個數位的發展,包括社群媒體的經營,包括網路電視的經營,朝這個方向去執行。"},{"start":6082.127,"end":6099.405,"text":"謝謝董事長你說明我們都知道其實現在在年輕人在網路使用這塊特別是自媒體越來越頻繁那我們所看到的所有的計畫都是針對我們有線電視的收入可是對於外面年輕人這一塊其實我們沒有考慮到我覺得這是未來也要再著重的地方"},{"start":6101.087,"end":6118.783,"text":"報告委員就是我們現在經營新媒體就是網路媒體那我們對年輕人的吸收黏著度主要放在跟他們話題相近的地方包括音樂包括次文化包括其他等等部分我們這個部分目前也都一直在持續進行"},{"start":6119.884,"end":6135.678,"text":"謝謝董事長的說明 董事長我這邊補充一下我想要藉著這些謝謝當時在本席當任鄉長的時候我們的那個原住民族文化事業基金會對大樓鄉的協助本席擔任鄉長過去四年有發行了兩張的原住民專輯"},{"start":6136.799,"end":6141.144,"text":"本席會做這兩張專輯的這個特別介紹最主要原因是其實我們用的成本並不高這張我記得是補助50萬然後還有下一張"},{"start":6159.11,"end":6184.821,"text":"第二張這是林班哥的部分也是50萬的那我們用兩張我們用這樣的預算然後讓最主要是讓民眾參與這件事情讓他們覺得說母語的方式其實可以透過不同的方式來呈現最重要的是讓各個年齡族群都能夠加入我想這個方法是過去我們嘗試也很算成功的方式希望這方面我們可以繼續來努力我想要謝謝原民會過去對大樓鄉的協助"},{"start":6185.501,"end":6191.818,"text":"那另外這邊我想再暫一點點時間我想請教課委會的部分是 許莫維來"},{"start":6196.222,"end":6221.102,"text":"副主委 上次本席停掉台東是一個多元的移民社會那上次跟我們主委聊的時候就是說當時台東的族群比較特別因為他的腔調有比較多元因為我們針對說少數使用不同客語腔調的協助未來有沒有相關的推動計畫就是有些是四線腔也有海線腔那我們在教育都是一種方式嘛那未來在這一塊有沒有要加強的地方有沒有什麼規劃好 希望委員會舉稿"},{"start":6224.484,"end":6250.835,"text":"其實我講的合流強制的才是合格強調的比較好少數的啦但是推動的部分主要比如說我們的中天發展企業被騙的三家鄉親主要不是合流強所以我們除了主要使用的私人強制外我們才渡時到我們合格中天發展企業還有推廣我們某種種通的強調然後實際才共有普遍的合格的地盤"},{"start":6252.658,"end":6280.492,"text":"普遍、全普遍用,不想通財體的空調內推廣應援是,另外也要再請教副主委我們像課委會推動課宇的這個制度傳新傳的制度齁因為台中縣現在擁有40名取得資格的這個認證的教學者但是他年紀都很大了齁他在教學上未來會面臨一個斷層的問題那現在的年金使用網路這麼高你們未來是不是有便利預算在啟動在線上教學跟認證這一塊"},{"start":6282.687,"end":6283.027,"text":"韓國瑜議員主席"},{"start":6301.782,"end":6330.165,"text":"副主委 副主委本席剛才提到兩個案子其實相對的就是不管是園民會或是客委會其實有一個很重要的元素在推廣語言文化上流行是一個很重要的元素那未來是不是像我們之前看到那個查經的這個電影讓更多人來了解台灣的客家文化那這個是不是未來客委會有打算繼續推這個串聯的名台讓我們的戲劇或電影或者是實境秀來讓客家文化能夠更多人來了解我想這個真的是哈客啦齁"},{"start":6330.785,"end":6342.393,"text":"那這邊也要期許我們客會會跟我們園民會那未來在文化土壤上能夠繼續加油謝謝好 謝謝兩位副主委謝謝金平委員也請金平委員代召委好嗎謝謝"},{"start":6358.919,"end":6377.198,"text":"好,接下來我們請高津召委質詢謝謝主席,我們請原民會中副主委、原文會邢邦拉斯董事長、原語會的馬耀古木董事長,還有勞動部的黃副司長請中副主委及以上提到的這些官員上台備詢"},{"start":6378.978,"end":6402.359,"text":"請問一下預計什麼時候搬到新大樓也就是原住民族語言傳播大樓這個是誰要回答我?14年12月預計完工但是搬遷大概是15年年初請問一下搬到桃園之後呢大台北地區會不會還會有一個所謂的北區中心呢?北區中心可能就在...報告委員就是為了新聞製作我們會有一個有一個分...中心在這裡"},{"start":6403.973,"end":6431.909,"text":"因為中央部門、單位都是在臺北也是所謂的資訊交流的集中地請問這個問題,你們在搬遷之前有沒有想過?有,我們在搬遷的小組都有做討論北區中心又要花錢租,對不對?大概會有多少人這樣來來去去?以你們估計?它是一個辦公區塊提供給記者在臺北發稿的區域會在哪裡?我們會招標所以還會有一筆錢?"},{"start":6433.125,"end":6434.346,"text":"員工的權益部分在一年度是編列兩千萬"},{"start":6461.328,"end":6482.461,"text":"一年兩千萬這兩千萬包括托育補助搬遷補助合一住宅的規劃是嗎是是是好所以要準備要幾年三年三年一年兩千萬等於就是還會有兩六千萬那萬一這些人在三年當中就是他的權益沒被照顧到那怎麼辦"},{"start":6484.308,"end":6503.851,"text":"我們一樣是會以勞基法的方式請問一下黃副司長目前這個案子你們有介入嗎在他們針對這個部分的討論之後你們有沒有把你們相關應該我們的這個員工應該要的福利有提醒他們注意些什麼"},{"start":6504.472,"end":6529.017,"text":"報告委員因為這個案子之前原民會是沒有請我們勞動部提供什麼協助今天我邀請你來了所以呢從今天開始你沒有介入然後原民會也好所以原文會董事長也好原語會董事長也好你們所謂的這個討論小組今天必須要加入我們勞動部然後要把員工權益放在第一也就是我為什麼今天會邀請勞動部來的原因好嗎副市長謝謝"},{"start":6530.297,"end":6556.076,"text":"我在4月8號執行客傳會的董事董事長的時候我針對客傳會執行的網路媒體的成效我認為值得我們的原文會來效法學習所以今天我也特別安排一個專案報告說因應當代新媒體發展的趨勢來擬定經濟的策略在這裡呢我要給客傳會肯定今天你們的報告書非常的完整你不僅僅提供了文字的敘述你還把"},{"start":6556.937,"end":6580.536,"text":"大數據撈出來然後匯整成圖卡或者是列表來呈現其中跟包含了所有類別的成效率、觸及率這樣的精細我們可以讓在座的每一個立法委員一目了然但是反觀原文會我感到非常的失望今天原文會的書面報告裡面欠缺所有的數據還有你的執行率還有你的成效率、數據率沒有這些數據讓我們怎麼知道你們所有的計劃成效呢"},{"start":6586.181,"end":6609.614,"text":"怎麼樣讓我們立法委員審查你們的預算呢來看看原文會報告書第15頁你們有說要成立數位媒體部跟建置原住民族數位影音平台你們要邁向未來的趨勢你有提到原文會吸引媒體之路雖然在受限條件之下你們仍然透過社群媒體跟節目內容製作獲得各界的熱烈迴響什麼叫做熱烈迴響請董事長簡單說明一下沒有數據什麼叫做熱烈迴響"},{"start":6615.903,"end":6619.804,"text":"你們要向主管機關提案,然後規劃未來要成立數位媒體專屬部門。你們"},{"start":6645.63,"end":6658.785,"text":"預計要編列每年度常態性的業務預算4000萬新增人額25名編制三個業務組別為社群策略組還有平台發展組還有快運內容組透過專屬的部門來推動原文會的數位轉型對嗎?"},{"start":6665.922,"end":6680.755,"text":"我是支持原文會的數位轉型可是原文會你們到底有沒有清楚知道你們轉型到底要轉到哪裡啊數位轉型不是繼續停留在攝影棚拍攝、錄製節目而應該是要更多元化嘛 是吧"},{"start":6681.916,"end":6691.202,"text":"所以是不是可以不要在攝影棚也可以在街頭啊也更可以在任何角落啊那形式上除了我們的電視還有廣播之外我們的FB、IG、Pocket或者是各類的短影應該都可以嘛所以你們原文會你們看過客傳會的客新聞嗎"},{"start":6699.887,"end":6726.595,"text":"他們在AFP和IG都可以看到他們的瀏覽他們是以新媒體多元化的主題讓各個年齡層的人都有興趣關注甚至他們在政策上面的宣導都可以展示他們的多變性但是我了解的是原文會和客傳會你們曾經有談過如何讓我們的原文會更精進或者是研發請問現在的進度到哪裡你們決策又什麼"},{"start":6727.515,"end":6742.906,"text":"原民會你們支持同意嗎?就是剛剛一直在講的這個4千萬嗎?是,我們支持也希望他們列入114到119年的原住民族文化那副主委你清楚知道你清楚知道人家客船會才花多少錢嗎?而且現在人家已經在做了"},{"start":6746.367,"end":6768.2,"text":"所以一定要編4千萬才會有這個然後你們還是一個中長程計畫接著看一下一樣報告書第16月委員會在今年度也就是2024 3月29號向主管機關提案也就是原民會114到119年度的中長程計畫就是我剛剛講的建制專屬原住民族數位影音平台然後以6年為期"},{"start":6770.902,"end":6788.069,"text":"第一到第二年是要平台建置期第三到第四年是數位影音優質內容產製期預計從每年自製內容兩部外部構製五部我們看一下客傳會第一頁報告書看一下"},{"start":6788.809,"end":6818.179,"text":"他明確指出客傳會要辦理新媒體營運一年編列1500萬的預算請問原文會董事長為什麼需要提案114到119年度的中長程計畫然後你們說要建置專屬原住民族數位影音平臺請問你們是要在現有的社群網路比如說FB IG Pocket來做還是你們所謂兩年的平臺建置其實要開發新的系統新的APP請問一下"},{"start":6819.392,"end":6838.205,"text":"是 數位媒體這一塊有非常就是發展上的快變動性所以我們在所以你一定要有這個所謂的這個中長程計劃你才能做嗎那你要做什麼你也清楚嗎請問原民會副主委你同意他這個案子嗎"},{"start":6839.892,"end":6860.592,"text":"他的論述還有他的數據的基礎夠不夠支持你們來支持他這個中長程計劃還是他只要調整現在的方向就可以了?目前因為才剛剛送來你們不瞭解是不是?所以所以呢副主委回答之前我們看一下原民會的報告第三頁"},{"start":6861.84,"end":6888.512,"text":"你們有關原文會營運情形及如何因應新媒體發展趨勢第二點你說原文會已經在110年在原文會的文化行銷部已經籌設了新媒體組這是任務編組主要任務是經營管理維護社群媒體平台還有製作新媒體影音跟Podcast節目所以副主委你們110年已經籌設新媒體組了為什麼今天原文會還要提案中長城計畫"},{"start":6891.476,"end":6904.336,"text":"請問一下報告委員我們現在新媒體的任務編組是4個人然後每年是350萬這個非常小的規模所以110年你們已經跟原民會討論這個問題了嘛對吧"},{"start":6906.93,"end":6929.052,"text":"我們有跟主管機關來提出我們在這塊的需求那你們現在做了怎麼樣的精進?怎麼樣的進步?怎麼樣的數據?我們除了Podcast我們在YT、Youtube在哪裡啊?數據?你今天客委會都已經把這些他從什麼時候開始然後增加到去請那個助理再回到那個客委會今天的"},{"start":6929.873,"end":6950.375,"text":"你連這個東西在110年你跟原文會已經提出了你們都沒有這些數據告訴我們啊是 這個數據我們有我們立刻再提供那為什麼今天不提出來呢我先在這邊講如果你們之前在現有的制度都做不好我是堅決你們要再提出這些預算的啦檢討一下原文會的營運情形"},{"start":6951.696,"end":6965.468,"text":"然後,原文會,你們的營運情形你們只講發揮守護台灣多元文化價值的媒體影響力然後正是原文會發展數位媒體的目標你們這次沒有提原文會整體的營運樣貌你覺得現在很好了嗎?"},{"start":6969.472,"end":6991.946,"text":"請問一下董事長,你們怎麼樣跟原語會怎麼樣在原文、原民台的或者是廣播裡面來增加我們現在原語會很清楚我們現在不叫羅馬拼音,我就講一個最簡單的事不叫羅馬拼音,它叫原住民文字,你們做了什麼樣的宣傳廣告?你們在所有的現在既有的能夠露出來的這邊有教育了社會大眾嗎?"},{"start":6993.595,"end":7021.006,"text":"很顯然很顯然你們並沒有做得很好所以原民會主委副主委是您知道原民會除了在臺北總部有電視台之外我現在在因為議題太多了齁有電視總部電視台廣播台之外還有三個地方有設置原民台的新聞中心嗎有有在台東有好請問一下中部有新聞中心對不對對南部有新聞中心對不對台中也有東部有新聞中心對不對是是是"},{"start":7022.026,"end":7040.161,"text":"現在已經是5G的時代了網速和雲端科技非常發達了傳送影片速度也非常快所以我們必要再設計所謂的地方中心嗎是不是應該要整體檢討了而且我還聽說有非常多的中心現在是養老院所以請問副主委原民會你們清楚知道有這個三個這個中心它的執行力怎麼樣"},{"start":7050.523,"end":7053.445,"text":"你覺得原住民立法委員可以做你們的後盾嗎?"},{"start":7078.25,"end":7101.221,"text":"我們是不是再瞭解一下目前請問一下簡單的說明 委員會董事長為什麼報告書看不到總部還有三個地方的說明還有數據是難道我還要再排一個專案報告嗎還是呢在一個專案報告裡面你們就可以把你們現在所做的事情全部講清楚把數據提出來然後未來還有什麼經濟還有你們必須要檢討的部分你今天的報告書不應該是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7103.343,"end":7115.051,"text":"在補充跟委員做報告就是我們三個中心最主要是能夠就近對部落的新聞去做cover我知道現在已經是5G時代了你覺得還需要這幾個中心嗎還是需要記者去採訪還需要這幾個中心嗎那現在這幾個中心它的執行力怎麼樣好不好"},{"start":7122.035,"end":7127.019,"text":"那未來還有一個臺北的喔你們現在有四個中心喔然後你們要錢給錢要人給人但是你們最基層的員工的權益你們最基層的員工的權益就我知道還沒有勞動部的最新的薪資喔你們是不是要報告"},{"start":7143.951,"end":7152.55,"text":"你們是不是要報告一下我不是說搬遷的我說以既有的最基礎的員工的權益你們都還沒有照顧到喔所以"},{"start":7153.632,"end":7179.918,"text":"我希望今天我講了非常多的原文會不管是5G未來的時代或者是現在多媒體的不管是你們的營運的部分或者是為了要搬遷的部分有很多的問題所以我希望中府主委跟原語會也好原文會也好一定要針對這一次搬遷大樓之後我們還有哪一些要精進要檢討的部分"},{"start":7181.397,"end":7208.614,"text":"不是花了17億就兩手一攤然後什麼也都不檢討了所以我請原文會兩週之內也請原民會還有原文會你們再整理出最好的書面報告還有你們的各項數據還有規劃否則的話身為一個原住民的立法委員從最早的電視台的成立然後離開公共電視然後現在我們有一個專屬自己的基金會不管是原文會不管是原民會"},{"start":7209.835,"end":7237.61,"text":"你們都要什麼都給什麼,但是你們真的有做很好嗎?在這裡我必須說,你們不及格。謝謝。謝謝高津召委的質詢。那本席這邊也謝謝高津召委幫本席來補充很多的問題想要了解。那雖然本席不是原住民的利益,但是我們也會支持原住民的政策。前提是我們原民會真的要加油,實在是真的。"},{"start":7241.614,"end":7243.599,"text":"謝謝 好 我們現在休息五分鐘 待會再繼續質詢"},{"start":7599.178,"end":7606.52,"text":"好 謝謝 我們繼續開始我們的開會繼續請盧憲一委員質詢 謝謝主席 幫我請兩位董事長請兩位 對不起兩位 袁王輝跟袁宇輝董事長OK 好 西蒙老師也要鼓勵兩位董事長 謝謝兩位董事長好"},{"start":7627.635,"end":7656.716,"text":"我想知道就是說我剛剛看到第一頁就是原民會的報告就是年度預算是4.62億元跟2.9億元這個費用多久沒有調了報告委員我們的預算十年都沒有調整從東森開始我們一直沒有調整所以你覺得這樣合理嗎這個對我們來說很困難因為其他客台你知道現在紐西蘭多少嗎"},{"start":7658.527,"end":7683.417,"text":"十億毛利電視台毛利對他原本在2021年的時候大概只有3億的台幣3億多不到4億台幣可是現在已經高達超過9億了所以這方面是你們要努力還是當然我們在力求精進以外就是我們也一直跟主管機關來反映那公共電視台是多少"},{"start":7684.918,"end":7709.771,"text":"公共電視是24那柯佳呢?柯佳目前是6億還有台語台是9億你要講說我們現在是16組加上未來的評估組所以這個預算一定是不夠的對不對?不夠,非常不夠,短缺一定要讓大家知道非常不夠我們原語會目前的預算是2.9億那柯佳呢?"},{"start":7712.308,"end":7720.596,"text":"對,跟委員說明一下,我們原來是2億,那後來是因為有國家研發方法就增加1億,所以2.9現在客價多少你知道嗎?"},{"start":7720.596,"end":7730.386,"text":"我不清楚7億,大概7億嘛,那你在做有聲詞典字典這個部分做了多少努力?"},{"start":7731.499,"end":7754.115,"text":"目前我們現在至少有一個族群醫樂園可是我在看的時候好像內容都沒有進步或者說很像只是一個小學生的一個層級對那個時候是我們有在做討論內部討論也都做招標這是第一個那麼第二個是目前我們已經有在招標已經在處理了那個有關AI的部分"},{"start":7754.935,"end":7768.76,"text":"那APP的部分呢APP我們有也是有嗎我們也有對我們研議會本身就有APP因為我只有看到說你的人事費用是佔了13.5可是其他的細項我就看不到說你到底錢花在哪裡"},{"start":7770.671,"end":7799.067,"text":"我們會再給委員這個內部的說明那我知道說你們是永久繪紙那為什麼不當初做一個類似興建合宇住宅這個部分呢你看你未來有通勤補助、遷居補助、住宿補助如果是永久繪紙我們乘100年好了那你一年如果你一年多少錢然後乘100的話遠遠超過你興建那個合宇住宅的一個那個數字啊不是嗎"},{"start":7799.747,"end":7817.902,"text":"以後未來的國家博物館也是原住民博物館因為我們原住民都上去在全國然後你設置一個單位在那裡你一定要先解決員工的住宿的問題跟委員說明我們那個補助是大概一年左右所以我的意思是你們的召集委員或者是專門委員是不是在"},{"start":7818.723,"end":7832.069,"text":"在做開會的時候應該要把這個優先當作第一項目啊,不然員工去哪裡找地方住呢?謝謝委員,我們也跟桃園市政府有在第一次時間有做,他們有提供這樣的一些方案,我們也納入我們那個積極的這個討論。那我先關稅,我把這個作業"},{"start":7836.752,"end":7855.824,"text":"我希望那個永久會子專小組的成員名單專業設備諮詢小組的名單我希望能夠有組別專業別彙整給我們好不好因為我覺得怎麼去看呢說像是單一族群然後專業委不知道專業在哪裡是不是讓我們可以更透明化"},{"start":7856.364,"end":7879.951,"text":"你們的真正在上面在做事情的人你們的那個角度在哪裡可不可以跟委員說明我們這個跟言文和言明會我們都有那個相關的專業背景跟有關原住民文化藝術的這個委員在參與最後一個就是你們的建立溝通機制跟反饋機制是透過通訊軟體然後溝通機制跟反饋機制你可以做一個舉例嗎"},{"start":7883.03,"end":7903.441,"text":"你們在處理員工的溝通跟委員說明我們有一個定期的勞資勞方跟資方勞資方的這些定期的會議是你透過資訊軟體但是我們當然內部會有這個我們然後也有實體的會議這是第一個方法那我們看商業好了就是那個工會"},{"start":7904.813,"end":7924.171,"text":"那我是希望不要原文會或是原語會常常會出現這樣的問題好不好因為我們已經好不容易建立了一個比如說我們要消弭我們原住民的所謂的被主流社會歧視可是常常會出現這樣的問題的時候是不是要盡力的來消弭這樣的一個聲音好不好"},{"start":7925.864,"end":7940.041,"text":"至少我們在語言的部分上我們很快的就會做反應原民台我剛看了就是原文會的有三個目標對不對未來因應那我希望這個消米族群族群的歧視這個部分應該多做努力是"},{"start":7940.581,"end":7955.906,"text":"目前看到這個圖都是過去的發生的 我知道我說未來你們因應新媒體的一個策略的時候你要把蕭敏騎士這個部分放進來你要多做努力而不是只是針對軟體的運用什麼什麼的因為你就跟別的電視台是一樣的了我們在電視的節目有一個立馬幫幫忙是專門討論性別跟族群的一點"},{"start":7964.249,"end":7964.549,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"},{"start":7992.759,"end":7993.421,"text":"周副主委"},{"start":8004.505,"end":8009.509,"text":"副主委,您有去過善假時從嗎?有,信奉您敢說哪一份?有動到昨天政府的會所。對,動到。昨天請你來本豪道的基金會規宣,您的善假時從嗎?"},{"start":8024.379,"end":8028.563,"text":"當然,在新峰香港所看未來的經濟風向有半年,因為其實在新峰有新莊的樹莊,就是在三甲樹莊到底是…在東郷,東郷全部都蓋上了。快點,快點。快點,拜託了。"},{"start":8041.414,"end":8045.997,"text":"我希望你做到結束做我們的輔助委要為我們香港人努力三、我先請問我們信部的圖書館的設備更新還有我們信部老街中我們香港中的"},{"start":8071.806,"end":8083.078,"text":"道路及招牌的淪亂及原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動,原住民及委員會有應用的基金會在補助嗎?老委員報告,三家案,第一點是出書館案和當當在警方的文化發展基金的專案"},{"start":8092.768,"end":8095.471,"text":"原住民族文化事業基金會董事長 原住民族文化事業基金會董事長 原住民族文化事業基金會董事長"},{"start":8109.486,"end":8115.031,"text":"拜託啦,因為客家人,因為客家人為我們付出,因為客家人正在動作的規範,在規範的候候所以本席在這裡希望就是說我們客家莊的不管市場還有客家莊的一些老街,包含我們客家莊的圖書館"},{"start":8136.77,"end":8145.175,"text":"還有一些藝文、語文傳承活動的推動,我們都希望客委會可以全力的來協助,好不好?"},{"start":8145.175,"end":8154.9,"text":"老委員報告,特效委員特別提到跟文藝福興的計劃,是老村新、黑膠文化、老藝園的相關競選委員會的那種預算,那是新部局的計劃,是在修長之中,那是因爲"},{"start":8164.03,"end":8176.733,"text":"我們希望可以全力的看到我們這個課委會能夠來協助好不好,好,謝謝,謝謝本席接下來想請我們原民會的中副主委有請中副主委副主委,本席想請教你,那個我們原住民的這個"},{"start":8187.978,"end":8216.329,"text":"守獵權是不是應該好好的保障這個是原住民的文化很重要的文化本席想請教你去年1月就已經預告的原住民獵槍管理辦法草案為什麼到今年5月都還不能完成法規的程序法規的主管機關是內政部但我們一直都有配合參與開會提供主人的相關建議"},{"start":8217.776,"end":8225.562,"text":"那所以您覺得這個管理辦法有沒有辦法保障我們原住民族的文化權跟狩獵權你覺得有沒有辦法這一個管理辦法草案到現在沒有這個確立這個之前也有經過大法官解釋803號的解釋他是在110年"},{"start":8247.718,"end":8266.808,"text":"一百一十年就公佈希望在兩年內能夠來修正但是兩年的話就是到去年的五月七號可是竟然已經到現在到今年五月七號已經一年了但你們對這個完全現在空窗期"},{"start":8268.008,"end":8295.045,"text":"現在跟內政部警政組大概都有一些共識比如說族人對於原有的自製獵槍的部分那本席剛剛問的就是說那這個辦法草案您覺得能保障我們原住民的文化權跟狩獵權嗎?你覺得可以嗎?這個部分因為對於槍支的部分跟以前來比較算是有改善有改善?因為進口槍支對於槍的安全性的使用有做考量你一定要好好回答喔是"},{"start":8297.088,"end":8321.72,"text":"這個原住民委員會不管主委副主委你們開會的時候代表原住民啊你去跟內政部開會的時候所以你覺得這個管理辦法草案能夠保障原住民族的文化權、狩獵權啊當然這還有討論的空間因為族人也需要那你有反應嗎有有我們都有反應你現在新的辦法要向國外購買這個零件、子彈然後送回來那"},{"start":8324.041,"end":8334.227,"text":"當初原本是怕我們自己土製的不安全嘛現在安全了可是沒辦法打獵了現在安全了買不起那我們原住民的這個狩獵權要怎麼維護"},{"start":8336.681,"end":8362.65,"text":"這個槍支內政部警政署說評估大概跟這支獵槍的價格大概不相上下應該差不多那這樣我們有落差跟我們原住民取得獵槍的成本現行這個辦法規定的是高出2到10倍原住民買不起還有這個故障了還要送到國外維修這個原住民的一個生活要送到國外維修"},{"start":8365.06,"end":8383.959,"text":"這個要想辦法 這個要討論一些配套措施因為不可能槍壞掉還要送到國外所以這個部分都有在跟警政署在討論細節的部分你們討論夠久了 現在空窗期一年了這個可不可以加速啊 可不可以加速 可以加速多快"},{"start":8386.768,"end":8399.333,"text":"我看我們召委的立場怎麼樣你這已經去年5月7號就應該要出來的到今年5月7號沒有那我們原住民現在怎麼辦他的狩獵權、文化權怎麼保障所以你們是不是可以提供你們出席行政機關會議的法制意見因為我們對這個我們很好奇我們也很關心"},{"start":8412.529,"end":8430.068,"text":"是,沒有問題,好,謝謝委員的關心,謝謝好,謝謝信任委員,也謝謝這個總副主委,這個部分呢,我們請國防部跟警政署還有園民會,我們其實也一直在深入的討論,希望能夠加速速度,謝謝,接著我們請李博義委員來質詢"},{"start":8448.575,"end":8459.413,"text":"謝謝我請原文會董事長、原語會董事長還有勞動部、勞動關係司副司長有請邢老師董事長、馬耀國務董事長還有黃副司長謝謝"},{"start":8464.968,"end":8483.308,"text":"謝謝我用4分鐘就好了那感謝昭緯今天排入這一個搬遷原住民族傳播大樓準備事項搬遷之後有一些勞工權益的部分然後還有這個我們未來這個新媒體發展的趨勢的這個專案報告"},{"start":8485.185,"end":8501.106,"text":"那當然我們已經在2016年的時候前瞻基礎建設經費裡面有17億要準備來桃園被桃園爭取到桃園青埔的這一個原住民語言傳播大樓跟"},{"start":8504.062,"end":8523.734,"text":"文創園區共構的這個基地那目前應該明年原本表定今年要好那現在應該是明年我們所有的員工就要進去裡面進駐了那同時在同一個時間呢在這個月其實上個禮拜陳建仁院長還特別到高雄針對"},{"start":8526.687,"end":8555.102,"text":"原住民博物館的這些進度的考察原住民博物館決定在高雄從2017年選址之後經過2019年可行性評估到2021年環評到2022年公布施行計畫那當天包含陳建仁院長以及當時爭取的高雄市長陳菊現在院長也都到場那希望原民博物館趕快來興建其實在這裡面我們看到"},{"start":8555.982,"end":8582.81,"text":"台灣原本很多這個原住民的文化其實透過這些傳播那可以有更多的讓國際或者是觀光或者是原住民權益有更多的這些保障跟發揮我們也很期待那所以我們支持這個政策之外呢其實我在我們現在在內政委員會其實我也看到桃園市政府跟高雄市政府在這一方面做的努力"},{"start":8583.732,"end":8612.97,"text":"桃園市政府把發展中的青浦站當初在二零在決定要把這個當初決定要把這個大樓放在青浦的時候2018年2018年到現在六年六年期間青浦的發展是非常的可怕那讓這個我們的原住民語言傳播大樓可以落腳在青浦"},{"start":8613.84,"end":8640.887,"text":"當然就現在目前可能在大台北地區工作的人來講可能會感受到不方便這個我們也支持召委所安排的這個議程支持勞動權益方面我們要給予適度的這些輔導之外呢那我們也看到這個桃園市政府的厲害跟遠見啊為什麼桃園市的人口現在在六都裡面是最年輕化他除了"},{"start":8641.553,"end":8663.965,"text":"在北北工作的人他必須可能會外溢通勤到桃園居住之外還有這一招還要把我們這個原民傳播大樓爭取到那裡去那我也相信這個除了有很多員工他必須有調適的問題之外那最重要的就是桃園會爭取到這一些"},{"start":8666.206,"end":8691.863,"text":"可能有能力遷徙的員工可以到桃園去居住當然我講這些桃園之後我就是要講未來的高雄的原民博物館我們也期待我們也希望相關的這些從業的人員未來也可以樂居在高雄來請問兩位董事長你們準備好要通勤到桃園還是要在桃園居住呢來"},{"start":8694.432,"end":8712.379,"text":"謝謝委員那跟委員講我本身因為是另一半是桃園人所以我會在桃園定居那恭喜你啊可以回桃園定居這是我的第一個啦因為我就在桃園復興那我們大部分的同仁會建立就地那讓整個計劃整個的脈絡上會比較好這是我們的大方向好馬拉姆"},{"start":8713.649,"end":8738.767,"text":"董事長因為我住蘭嶼買不起臺灣的房子所以我是租的我從臺北再去租更應該更要為我們原住民所有的我們的我們的從業我們在這裡工作的人去思考怎麼樣可以讓他們在桃園定居或者是怎麼樣可以在這個公共領域上工作的時候來來有解決他們住的問題是的這個很重要謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":8742.028,"end":8744.771,"text":"好,謝謝博弈委員的質詢。謝謝兩位董事長。謝謝。繼續我們請黃婕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請原民會副主委。也請中副主委。好。"},{"start":8764.295,"end":8787.769,"text":"好 副主委好 剛剛大家都在關心說我們因為明年下半年原住民族語言傳播大樓就要啟用了那啟用之後其實原住民族的文化事業的基金會然後語言發展的基金會所有的工作同仁都要去到青埔那現在看起來是現在原文會、原語會兩個基金會工作同仁加起來大概有289位職員 對嗎是 他們差不多 原文會270 原語會37人"},{"start":8793.854,"end":8817.702,"text":"對,所以加起來大概也是將近300位的同仁要到草原的青浦的新辦公室那因為大家也有傳出說蠻多員工在擔心說搬遷後他們的居住或是交通或是子女教育的問題該怎麼辦那因為我有看到說2019年的時候其實原文會自己有做過內部的調查只有15%的員工願意搬遷是嗎?"},{"start":8821.38,"end":8844.612,"text":"剛剛的說明好像是15%不願意不過那是最初的調查那現在的狀況是如何呢現在應該我們9次的會議要一起過去是高比例啦高比例是多少我們預估大概八成的員工都是願意跟我一起奮鬥"},{"start":8845.956,"end":8869.805,"text":"那當然啦我也是希望說你們在這樣子搬遷的過程還是要保障所有員工的權益一定是要符合勞基法的並且協助他們在生活的起居上面有所有相關的都已經做好準備了所以我想要再次的督促說只要是在這個搬遷過程有員工有任何的需要你們一定都要盡全力來協助好嗎是"},{"start":8872.259,"end":8901.144,"text":"這其實就是這一次的這個搬遷的爭議大家最關心的那因為其實之前也有看到說桃園有承諾說這兩個基金會員工的搬遷會用社會住宅來做專案的處理不知道你們有跟桃園市有做任何的接洽嗎?有,我們跟桃園市政府總共開了三次的會議那就有關的安排後續正在進行市議院也在協助我們"},{"start":8902.199,"end":8922.947,"text":"所以現在他們說這個社會住宅是有在做的嗎是是是那所以在明年下半年之前這個社會住宅是絕對可以可行的是是讓所有的員工都可以入住是好那這個就是我希望要你們要做出保證的好那再來我們請原民會副主委是委員"},{"start":8923.727,"end":8940.638,"text":"我想要請教這個反歧視法的部分因為其實行政院的人權處在5月2號的時候已經公告一個反歧視法的草案了那我也非常的支持因為我覺得這個反歧視法現在是散落在所有的法律裡面但是很需要有一部統合的法律"},{"start":8941.238,"end":8962.254,"text":"那因為其實這個原住民族的歧視案例之前也有看到很多尤其是去年有幾個在學校裡面發生的我看到其實蠻於心不忍的覺得說從學校的教育就應該要從學校開始做起包括之前有一個中益中的園遊會他們的文宣發生過歧視的案例然後包括我的母校其實在台大的學生自治選舉裡面"},{"start":8962.995,"end":8963.495,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"},{"start":8985.666,"end":9002.575,"text":"然後那時候那個宜將主委有說要跟教育部開會然後盤點過去的歧視的案件然後針對落實這些多元的文化的教育要進行相關的討論那不知道說去年開會之後我們到現在做的相關的整理是什麼"},{"start":9003.075,"end":9027.355,"text":"有,跟委員報告,這個部分我們除了跟教育部在教政會就這個部分拿出來討論,希望通令各學校針對其實這個議題進行處理之外,我們也出版一些有關原住民的相關書籍或介紹,能夠發送到各學校,也能夠變成是他們的教育教材,然後做參考,希望能夠多認識原住民這個文化的部分。"},{"start":9028.584,"end":9051.127,"text":"因為我是希望說去年那個事件之後你們跟教育部有一些糾正跟補作的措施那我也是很支持說現在人權處的這個反歧視法現在已經有一個草案了那我不知道說原民會有沒有進行相關的討論把你們的需求放進去呢每次開會都有邀我們我們也把我們的需求都納在他們的相關法案裡面"},{"start":9052.468,"end":9069.514,"text":"因為其實監察院之前有做過一個消明原住民社會歧視的法律策略的研究案那裡面其實都有提到說像是加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等國的反歧視的規定都有明確的規定某一些言論的種族歧視的言論必須要禁止"},{"start":9070.194,"end":9096.039,"text":"那我知道說我們原民會也都有在加入這些討論所以我不知道說你們有沒有把你們的意見明確的放進去有的話我也希望說到時候這個反歧視法的草案裡面是有明確的把我們原民會所有相關的不管是要如何禁止或是任何行為言論你們都有明確的納入你們的意見的是有這個部分我們都會站在原住民族的立場將我們的相關意見提供給他們"},{"start":9096.67,"end":9120.625,"text":"好 謝謝不好意思 謝謝主席因為我今天聲音不舒服所以有幫我主持一下我聲音沒有辦法大聲我們請在場的委員小聲一點好不好我們尊重一下質詢委員謝謝不好意思因為我聲音沒有辦法很大聲那這部分我就希望我們可以趕快看到反歧視法的立法然後原住民族的意見我們原民會的意見一定一定要納入好嗎是 好 謝謝是 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝環節委員的質詢也謝謝中副主委好"},{"start":9127.061,"end":9130.227,"text":"我們現在來處理一下臨時提案總共5案請宣讀"},{"start":9133.836,"end":9160.589,"text":"臨時提案一,內政部警政署為因應司法院釋字第803號解釋於112年1月預告原住民與民自製獵槍與槍許可及管理辦法草案但因內容不符實際操作可行性,原住民族群相關業界均存疑慮在此同時,行政機關因循反覆毫無修正進度對原住民族的狩獵群、文化群構成嚴重實質侵害請原住民族委員會積極向行政院內政部、國防部具體表達原住民族意見"},{"start":9161.75,"end":9180.992,"text":"並請內政部證實本案對於原住民族文化的意義與價值﹐親自督導並廣納原住民族民眾意見﹐請速完成修正辦法內容與進度﹐勿使故不自封、因循廢事﹐於下會期看一前向本院內政委員會提出規劃方案與進度書面報告﹐是否有當進請公決﹐提案人委員徐新穎等三人。"},{"start":9182.322,"end":9198.798,"text":"臨時提案 二,原住民族委員會於107年起沿提原文會及原語會工作地點遷移新建永久會址計劃,即行政院於109年核定此計劃涉及員工工作地點將從臺北市重陽路及羅斯福路調動至桃園市大園區領航北路四段,僱主原文會及原語會"},{"start":9199.699,"end":9228.322,"text":"遵守《勞動基準法》第十之一條第四款及第五款規定調動工作地點過員、雇主應予以必要之協助考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益查原住民族委員會提報前述新建永久匯值計劃時為考量前述勞動基準法規定為保障原委會及原委會員工權益原住民族委員會應緊速規劃提供員工交通補助、槍具補助、托育補助及可租可售之合宜住宅等必符合勞動基準法前述規定提案由委員高金素梅等五人"},{"start":9229.242,"end":9244.079,"text":"臨時提案 三,查行政院109年1月12日和定之財團法人、原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人、原住民族語言研究發展基金會永久會址興建計劃經費計17億、新議107年起顏美之財團法人、原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人"},{"start":9245.34,"end":9261.676,"text":"原住民族語言研究發展基金會中長程計劃自107年期間一令年以上根據營建工程成本受到國際原物料價格上漲缺工缺料以及市場供需影響價格大幅上漲造成整個營建成本增加另外有關專業設備部分107年年底計劃時有無檢視設備已超過年限或與現今媒體直播設備規格不符需求"},{"start":9267.702,"end":9280.33,"text":"委員會因響為盤點及檢視期需增加之專業設備經費前107年年尾計劃時,財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會尚未成立,108年底成立。委員會因響為盤點及檢視應增列之設備實際需求,並前述17億之計劃經費尚未包含,因勞動基準法規定必須避免有關員工勞動權益相關費用。"},{"start":9288.955,"end":9309.602,"text":"眾上所述,原計劃編列17頁預算明顯不足以支應整體經費需求原住民族委員會、因應原委員會及原委員會實際需求謹速修正財團法人、原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會永久彙止新建計劃寬列前述所列經費提案人為高金素梅等五人臨時提案四"},{"start":9310.562,"end":9328.259,"text":"經查同署新制公共媒體台、台語台、客家台及原民台113年度預算分別為8億元、6億元及4.62億元三者間預算經費不僅明顯有重大落差且原民台預算之意項目上包括藝術文化業務及補助業務至原民台節目直播年度均相關費用少於4億元"},{"start":9329.06,"end":9343.229,"text":"此外,行政院專案計劃補助財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會經營廣播電台之年度經費每年約1.3億元,含轉播站台及資安系統建置也與同屬性公共廣播之客家公用傳播基金會113年度預算2.4億元,差距1.1億元"},{"start":9346.511,"end":9372.507,"text":"因此,數據顯示,客價與原住民族之廣播電視媒體年度預算差距高達3億元以上,因為符合媒體發展趨勢需求,因應編列預算推動建制及經營數位媒體。基於上述,原住民族委員會因函報行政院寬密財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會相關預算,其足額人力資源且不得低於同屬性公共媒體年度預算經費規模,並落實《信法》及《原住民族基本法》保障原住民族"},{"start":9372.947,"end":9391.28,"text":"文化之傳承推廣及傳播服務提案人委員高金、宿美等五人明示提案五查113年軍公教員工待遇調整經行徵容核定自113年1月1日起條新4%適用對象為包括軍職人員、公教人員、技工、工友及約聘僱人員及教研人員、學術研究家級、專業家級"},{"start":9392.681,"end":9400.829,"text":"調整15%。 其次勞工基本工資審議委員會依消費者物價指數CPI103年至112年年增幅高達111%並橫著勞動情勢與經濟發展情況進行基本工資調整審議自105年迄今已連續8年調漲基本工資"},{"start":9410.979,"end":9427.026,"text":"月薪總調漲37.3%、時薪總調漲52.2%。 另參照各公共媒體薪資比較來看,原民台員工平均薪資分別少於公視2萬元及少於客家台1萬元,其中原住民族廣播電台與中央廣播電台平均薪資落差逾2.5萬元,"},{"start":9428.827,"end":9453.24,"text":"原請原住民族委員會含報行政院應按同工同酬原則參照各公共媒體薪資水準於明114年度起增列額度外人事預算支應調整財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會員工薪資有關財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會員工薪資亦請原住民族委員會檢視比照相關機構辦理提案人委員高金淑美等五人宣讀完畢"},{"start":9457.625,"end":9485.129,"text":"好 現在看一下我們的臨時提案徐新英委員提的部分現在有一些文字的修正現在正在引印我們來看第二案確定還沒有印過來我們待會再宣讀一下因為為了節省時間第二案的部分請問一下原民會有沒有意見好 請問一下你們的文字修正在哪裡文字修正有提了嗎我現在目前要處理還沒看到"},{"start":9485.851,"end":9486.871,"text":"文字修正有提過嗎?"},{"start":9486.871,"end":9491.913,"text":"請問一下文字修正在哪裡?給我們議事人員了嗎?"},{"start":9491.913,"end":9496.595,"text":"第二案也在印,好,那第三案的部分?"},{"start":9496.595,"end":9510.5,"text":"也是給議事人員了,好一、二、三、五都好了一、二、三、五的文字修正都OK了,現在就是第四案的部分"},{"start":9511.684,"end":9536.476,"text":"好 第四案我們再溝通一下我們休息一下兩分鐘來溝通一下第四案第四案的部分就是希望這個原民台還有這個的預算跟這個公共媒體台語台、客家台然後他們的部分來做一些預算上的比較跟調整好 請問一下這個部分是哪一個部會有意見"},{"start":9537.737,"end":9541.8,"text":"現在臨時提案第4案我們照案通過那現在一二三"},{"start":9553.707,"end":9574.381,"text":"五案有一些文字上的修正正在引用過來我們等一下好 休息一下第五案也照案通過第四案、第五案都照案通過第四案、第五案都照案通過第五案是包括我們的薪資部分希望能夠按照這個軍公教人員、技工工友還有約聘僱人員、教育人員的加給調整15%"},{"start":9578.544,"end":9603.539,"text":"所以我們也希望我們原住民、原民會的員工同工同酬的部分好不好那這個第四、第五案我們照提案通過一、二、三案我們有一些文字修正現在正在引印那是不是先把那個原稿拿來我們在這個這個視頻上面給大家看一下文字修訂的部分謝謝"},{"start":9620.576,"end":9635.505,"text":"因為我們現場有非常多的委員在所以呢我們還是趕快引印但是呢這個下次我們希望就是說原稿先給我們唸一下如果大家委員有意見的話我們好修正好我們休息兩分鐘等一下我們引印的數據謝謝"},{"start":9664.084,"end":9682.934,"text":"現在我們請各位委員聽一下你們手上可能正在陸續但是在陸續引言的同時我先問一下臨時提案第一案1234第四行的一些行政機關因循反覆毫無修正這個部分的文字把它拿掉所以是行政機關"},{"start":9684.795,"end":9687.597,"text":"對於原住民族的狩獵權、文化權構成嚴重實質侵害那幾個字也拿掉"},{"start":9700.524,"end":9721.446,"text":"然後請原住民族委員會主任委員保障不足、文化權保障不足所以在此同時行政機關進度緩慢對於原住民族的狩獵權、文化權保障不足請原住民族"},{"start":9722.026,"end":9735.421,"text":"委員會積極向行政院、內政部、國防部具體表達原住民族的意見這是相關文字的修正接下來往後面看的第二行"},{"start":9736.923,"end":9745.39,"text":"故使故部自封因群廢事於下會期開議前向本院內政委員會提出規劃方案跟進度書面報告所以這些文字修正的部分請問一下提案的學習委員沒有意見吧"},{"start":9761.442,"end":9790.561,"text":"同意?好,沒有意見那行政部門也沒意見我們就按照文字的修正的部分來通過接著再來第二案是增加這個是嗎?對,倒數第三行來我們看一下第二案臨時提案倒數第三行為保障原文會還有原語會的員工權益原住民族委員會應該要協助基金會是吧?"},{"start":9791.401,"end":9809.972,"text":"協助兩基金會競速規劃提供員工交通的補助、遷居的補助、托育補助以及可租可售之合宜住宅等。這個部分的文字修正請問一下鄭天才委員的提案跟高金素美委員提案等有沒有一些意見修正可以嗎?"},{"start":9811.011,"end":9833.199,"text":"文字就接受這個修正了但是很重要的就是請原民會還有兩個基金會要掌握編列預算的時間因為明年就要搬遷你今年就要編明年的預算了所以現在就要好好的就要跟行政院還有主計總書溝通以上"},{"start":9835.199,"end":9849.168,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才提案委員鄭天才委員的補充請兩會還有人民會麻煩一下一定要在審預算之前把這些交給我們委員會讓我們清楚知道來臨時提案的第三案就是1234"},{"start":9851.99,"end":9873.795,"text":"倒數第四行 中上所述原計劃編列17億的預算那個明顯把它改成若有不足以支應整體經費的需求原住民族委員會應該要依照原文會和原語會實際的需求競速那個競加一個人字旁競速修正"},{"start":9874.936,"end":9888.213,"text":"財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會暨財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會永久彙止興建計畫匡列所述的所需經費請問一下提案委員的曾天才委員,這樣子的文字修正OK嗎?"},{"start":9890.238,"end":9905.99,"text":"勉強接受了因為實際上是不足了還是一樣就是請嚴明會趕快啟動好謝謝我們今天的臨時提案無案已經整個這個修正文字的部分還有專案通過了我們中午不休息我們繼續開會我們現在再請黃仁委員來做質詢謝謝大家"},{"start":9937.304,"end":9940.305,"text":"有請中副主委有請中副主委 謝謝黃委員好我必須要講剛剛我們聽到喜新穎所提的有關於原住民的槍暴條例這是一個全國國人最重視的一個議題"},{"start":9959.244,"end":9978.462,"text":"你們既然都已經引諾兩年內檢討而且實施在去年的5月17號結果你們消極不作為你們是該誰負責你們這個是行政疏失你們已經引諾了這個疏失該誰負責該誰負責"},{"start":9982.303,"end":10009.442,"text":"因為在預告之後有很多不同的看法不是嘛今天主張是你們原民會要替全國的族人爭取這樣的一個權利結果你們自己本身為為所說我們現在是什麼原民會是以藩治藩的現在在外面的感覺說你們根本沒有主張力嘛委員報告因為這個反而是警政署的"},{"start":10010.072,"end":10025.258,"text":"內政部所以我們也很積極配合希望能夠進展你們既然都已經講這邊我先讀一下喜新宜所講的這個有關機關質疑自本解釋公佈日期兩年內"},{"start":10026.238,"end":10040.254,"text":"一本解釋一時進促檢討修正就在上開範圍不足這部分定定符合憲法保障原住民的安全從事合法手裏活動之自治列強之定定"},{"start":10041.275,"end":10059.603,"text":"所以這個就是你們自己本身所提出來的你們現在沒有作為沒有作為都是聽其他的部會原民會應該有主張的立場為全國的族人守護權益守護他們的立場你們結果唯唯縮縮"},{"start":10063.738,"end":10088.919,"text":"內政部有一線你們馬上就萎縮了國防部有一線你們馬上就萎縮了這樣的一個原民會是幹什麼浪費公帑啊我們都有主動去找內政部、警政署跟國防部我們都比較用積極的態度是不是你們原民會的這個首長、主管裡面全部換掉才會有積極的作為你們現在留在這個位置裡面對不起國人啊浪費公帑啊"},{"start":10092.386,"end":10119.79,"text":"我會責成國防部因為我現在是外交國防我責成國防部謠言內政部報你們人民會儘速檢討這個有關於列強的部分是是到時候我會請我的辦公室行文給國防部還有你們人民會來一起來討論在我的研究室好不好好是謝謝委員謝謝好我們以文董事長請你們要鼓勵董事長"},{"start":10127.527,"end":10133.577,"text":"有關於文化如果母語斷文化就亡"},{"start":10134.813,"end":10156.261,"text":"今天很高興的很多我們不管是不分政黨對我們原住民語言的發展包含原住民的發展包含這各項面的一個開發條例都非常積極的關心我們原住民有很多地方嚴密會沒有積極的作為本席亦以來作為檢討"},{"start":10157.622,"end":10184.875,"text":"但是母語這是一個有關於我們國人對於母語的重視對我們整個全國的發展跟我們目前少子化的因素我們應該要生根而且要努力對各部落的發展包含整個縣市的語文的發展這是非常重要的 主委董事長"},{"start":10186.097,"end":10191.59,"text":"總預算目前來講總共多少跟委員報告現在我們的總預算是在兩億九"},{"start":10192.642,"end":10216.646,"text":"兩議夠嗎當然就現行來說我們當然要更加委員的建議是絕對是不夠的好提出你們的報告出來給本席一份你們未來希望能夠推展母語更能夠有效而且生根的話提出一個報告給我好不好我希望能夠責成其他的立委包含我們內政的"},{"start":10217.146,"end":10238.132,"text":"我們的委員能夠來盡速來做一個檢討包含提升我們母語的預算能夠普遍這是已經普遍性既然我們今天我們所有的語言文化包含我們的這些傳播都能夠設置在桃園本席非常支持"},{"start":10238.752,"end":10257.481,"text":"但是我也希望能夠從開始要在那個地方運送的話我應該我要隨時監督你們原民會各項的項目有沒有執行徹底那這個部分你趕快做一個預算好不好好 謝謝委員你有什麼想法"},{"start":10258.281,"end":10269.966,"text":"就委員說我們那個預算基本上要我同意用深耕這個部分要推到部落入馬到家裡這個是我們在內部討論中也是一個很重要的一個大決策"},{"start":10279.089,"end":10306.481,"text":"不管分族群都是異口同聲的好 謝謝我有接受到這樣的這個訊息那希望我們從這個部分我們共同一起努力因為原住民的進步跟推展是不容許緩慢但是我希望原民會未來520之後我一再提示我們"},{"start":10308.157,"end":10329.87,"text":"主委所提的不要以翻自翻我們現在要進步我們要強力的主張我們原住民的發展我們要訪觀國外去看一看他們有自己的一個主張力能夠推展的更好不要浪費公帑以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃榮委員的質詢也謝謝董事長 謝謝繼續我們請吳麗華委員來質詢"},{"start":10343.887,"end":10350.67,"text":"謝謝主席有請鍾副主委還有兩會董事長副主委您好我們看到這個藍圖就是未來的永久會址大家都非常的期待"},{"start":10363.734,"end":10382.998,"text":"根據我看到的資料應該是明年的3月就會完工明年年底大家就會進駐我知道的是這幾年大家都談原物料上漲那也看到你們也有在做變更設計請問變更設計幾次兩次那經費"},{"start":10390.5,"end":10412.167,"text":"有需要增加嗎有需要增加嗎所以你們有增編所以可以如期如值的完成目前的進度應該是明年的年底竣工包括所謂的室內裝潢等大概要一年時間那進駐呢進駐大概會如果初步"},{"start":10413.171,"end":10430.158,"text":"可希望應該是115年的元月份開始好那為什麼我們這麼關心齁其實我就是想說要聲量相襯啊民時要相符因為當時鄭文燦市長提供這麼好的一個預定地"},{"start":10431.298,"end":10446.131,"text":"我們也編列這麼多的經費要成為永久的彙值所以我們都希望說很重要的一件事就是要留住人才累積實力這是任何一個企業最重視的所以我在這邊就是想要問一下"},{"start":10446.952,"end":10473.591,"text":"因為我們從之前大家都在憂慮的就是搬過去那麼我們的勞權有沒有受到保障你們也討論了很久那實際上今天我從報告裡面我有看到你們說會有交通補助、遷居補助、托育補助等等等相關權益一年的費用大約2000萬元可是我們沒有看到實質你們規劃的方案"},{"start":10475.732,"end":10499.729,"text":"像我就很想知道會補助幾年一年兩千萬要補助幾年那新進的員工未來要不要補助我這個部分其實我都看不到所以我還是希望說可不可以提一個比較詳盡的規劃報告給我們大家好不好因為我相信大家也想聽員工一定也很緊張那再請一下勞動部黃副司長有請黃副司長"},{"start":10503.175,"end":10529.588,"text":"很謝謝今天有邀請勞動部來因為我們就是想要請勞動部來幫我們看一下我們知道在勞基法的第10條之一其實有明確的就是對於搬遷這樣的事情會有所保障那我剛才也提了確實原民會他們也有規劃但是大家可能更關心的是我想要多問一點我舉個例子搬遷到那邊"},{"start":10530.729,"end":10547.278,"text":"有沒有可能設置幼兒園啊副主委非營利幼兒園因為我看到你們說預計光是原文會預計未來的員工要392位再加元宇會有沒有可能設一個非營利幼兒園"},{"start":10552.714,"end":10571.292,"text":"我們那附近有一個幼兒園我們現在目前希望那邊變成是族語幼兒園所以有規劃有規劃那很好那有規劃很好那我再請教一下大家也會很擔心的就是像"},{"start":10572.512,"end":10590.791,"text":"我看到立法院的這一些原民台的記者他如果未來要跑回桃園我覺得那個可能會超過所謂的八小時的勞基法的標準他還要自播還要回來回去對吧我看到副市長一直點頭那有可能在台北留個中心嗎"},{"start":10592.672,"end":10602.037,"text":"對 報告委員 我們會在臺北有一個中心提供我們的直播人員在那個地方做產製所以會編所以我們也很關心編組的人力還有地點為什麼我這樣講其實我在這幾次我以前其實我也覺得編那麼多中心幹什麼"},{"start":10610.481,"end":10634.591,"text":"可是我們真的幅員遼闊而且上山下海像這一次來講花蓮的地震我就有看到東部的中心連結就很快去年卡姆颱風中部的中心就連結得很快台北也支援下去對所以我在想這個部分也許是員工關心的其實也是我們關心的因為我們要有競爭力所以這個部分我是希望說勞動部"},{"start":10636.152,"end":10653.743,"text":"就跟我們的原民會我希望在這個小組裡面你們要參與這種勞權的部分其實對於我們留住人才是很重要那也希望那個中副主委我們原民會要協助來編列經費然後不要成空好不好是沒有問題明天好像就會開會"},{"start":10656.244,"end":10681.766,"text":"那就好再來就是我關心一樣就是留住人才的問題大家都說我們原民台這一些費用、制播的費用其實跟其他台比差很多從以前就被詬病那現在我要講的是說我們的薪資水準我們來看一個這是我看到的的確這幾年我們一直調薪一直調薪"},{"start":10683.055,"end":10700.45,"text":"我們在第一級值等跟第二級值等喔我們來看一下那個表格確實我們有比其他台好一點可是你看喔從第三值等一直到第十二值等越值等越高差薪資差越多"},{"start":10702.244,"end":10723.346,"text":"那我就想說他就不利於我們的生涯發展啊我大概 如果是我啦我到第二職種的時候我就要走了啊因為我在這邊升官幹什麼 薪資那麼差所以他會造成流動率很高我這幾年 光是這四年在立法院我就覺得流動率很高"},{"start":10724.554,"end":10740.834,"text":"所以我覺得這個薪資結構的部分也要去調整因為他是用你們的考核去做點數去做所謂的值等所以這個部分那個副主委我也希望你列管這個業務未來要注意好不好因為這個部分"},{"start":10744.471,"end":10769.233,"text":"他們也正在提中長城計劃希望把這樣一個人力規劃也跳脫原來的4.9這個部分去做處理這個要做處理因為我就覺得流動率太高不利於生涯階梯的規劃那最後就是要鼓勵啦也是請託啦也是我們的期許啦我一直在講其實我們的小節目啊那種幾分鐘的真的很多人都誇讚做得很好"},{"start":10770.254,"end":10778.813,"text":"但是你們就是重播率太高節目很少就沒有人想要看原民台只有要看新聞而已因為新聞會天天不一樣"},{"start":10780.317,"end":10809.373,"text":"這個很慘耶所以我想這個部分大家都已經通過了齁 趙偉剛才林題都有通過了希望未來我們可以在原民台看得到好節目包括新媒體的部分我也是一直滑滑滑手機啊很難看到我們的新媒體所以希望未來我們錢撥多了以後真的我們希望能夠成為一個最好的台灣的原民台讓世界看到我們的台灣看到我們的原住民"},{"start":10810.053,"end":10827.127,"text":"希望我們一起來努力。好,謝謝主席。好,非常謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢。謝謝。謝謝鍾馨華副主委兩位董事長以及副市長。謝謝。我們希望勞工權益的部分剛剛提到了,你居然提了2100萬,但是我們不知道你們放在哪裡?"},{"start":10828.248,"end":10830.13,"text":"主席、各位委員有請中副主委有請中副主委"},{"start":10857.128,"end":10884.463,"text":"主委好 中呼主委好 是這個財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會監督管理要點是 因為要根據財團法人法要提升為另外一個辦法但是很重要的重點他不是一般的財團法人他裡面有更重要的就是電視台電視台所以這個"},{"start":10886.052,"end":10906.536,"text":"教文處 處長 中副主委 是你們在要很 怎麼這個奮劑啊 廣播電視法 這個奮劑要去考量 而不是鎖這個插入進去 監督要一個限制好 我們看這個 我在109年 109年就質詢蘇貞昌院長 當時引用了110年度"},{"start":10915.425,"end":10933.241,"text":"顏文慧跟公共電視的薪資以及顏額以及總預算你看這個預算顏額都差距那麼大公共電視今年又增加了明年又增加了所以這個部分的差距更大"},{"start":10934.793,"end":10960.729,"text":"這是109年的一個薪資研訓會跟公司的薪資的一個對照差距真的是非常非常大最低的平均薪資跟最高的平均薪資都差距非常大109年的資料執行的資料執行書增長的院長包括這個委任主管的差距當時本席在109年10月6號這是立法院的議事錄"},{"start":10963.038,"end":10990.287,"text":"109年10月6號質詢行政院蘇貞昌院長我把這個剛才講的那幾個部分做非常大的落差我說請院長及主席長能夠支持這個預算要增加蘇貞昌院長說好109年10月好到現在都沒有增加"},{"start":10991.055,"end":11003.956,"text":"而且差距越來越大回去的時候 政府主委這個行政院院長的承諾為什麼沒有落實"},{"start":11004.98,"end":11025.263,"text":"你們到底簽辦了如何提供書面報告,可以嗎?是,可以。不過跟委員報告,我們去年在審查原文會在113年度的工作計畫第二次審查的時候,我們的審查委員都有建議他們就有關這個部分,希望能夠跳脫4.6億的框架,然後重新思考,都有做這樣的一個建議。這個諸副主委。"},{"start":11026.204,"end":11048.486,"text":"我是延民會的老公務員主動爭取我過去就是協調主計長啊去協調都還要弄什麼中長城計畫不需要嘛對不對從延民台的開創成立我們就沒有中長城計畫了就編列預算就對了嘛你看現在的差距更大了"},{"start":11050.027,"end":11060.475,"text":"現在的差距、薪資的差距更大所以平均值是4萬8然後我們的整個公共電視6萬7"},{"start":11062.839,"end":11090.796,"text":"差距那麼大最高平均值也是一樣差距那麼大不要一直講中長城計劃心智的處理哪有什麼中長城計劃呢對不對好不好這個部分就請這個言明會都是你們要去處理的而不是這個你們要去協助你們的這個一個財團法人尤其是原住民族的電視台好我們談這個永久會址"},{"start":11092.199,"end":11117.737,"text":"永久的會址一開始也就是沒有規劃到從臺北市南港區重陽路要到桃園大園區從羅斯福路要過去這個才是中長城計劃要納入的你沒有納入啊很多都沒有納入啊這個才是中長城計劃要納入的像勞動基準法"},{"start":11118.969,"end":11144.268,"text":"第十條之一僱主調動勞動工作當初規劃的時候就知道要調動了就應該考慮到勞動基準法第十條之一第四款調動工作地點過眼僱主因予必要之協助考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益這個才是中長程計劃要納入的"},{"start":11146.591,"end":11174.715,"text":"結果沒有納入對不對包括很多的相關最主要的像我們很多的工程包括園民會的工程就是因為這幾年連物料的調帳各方面去調整修正提高的都有啊這個就是要中長城計劃去滾動檢討結果都沒有做所以這個部分是所以相關的交通的補助"},{"start":11175.927,"end":11203.986,"text":"遷積的補助、拖曳的補助、合宜住宅或是社會住宅請問一下,社會住宅,剛剛一直提到社會住宅,有方向了嗎?有,那個原文會有跟桃園市政府有談過兩次到三次,關於社會住宅的部分。 結果呢?可以請史謀老師談結果的部分。 結果呢?先董事長、史謀老師,謝謝。我們還在持續在爭取。 不是那麼容易啊。"},{"start":11205.45,"end":11233.109,"text":"為什麼在地的原住民都不夠住啊所以不是那麼容易所以如果沒有放在中長城計劃有啊 有學童啊 有溝通啊但是還是沒有辦法保障對不對住宅法 延平會 副總副主委這不是你的業務啊回去去跟這個另外一個住宅法本席所提出的104年通過的"},{"start":11235.612,"end":11263.627,"text":"住宅法就規定原民會要興建專攻原住民居住的社會住宅如果當初就這樣去蓋的話這個解決了所以這個部分就是沒有做法律已經給你們了結果你們都沒有做所以像今天的報告就這樣這個都是所以這樣的一個情形"},{"start":11265.165,"end":11293.761,"text":"我們看看這樣的一個言文會他們都做了一眼調查只有59.4%願意遷過去14.6%不願意前往26%尚未表達意見他猶豫為了工作又為了不得不工作他在猶豫這很高啊這比例很高啊"},{"start":11295.221,"end":11323.222,"text":"兩個加起來我們應該要兩個加起來百分之四十幾是這樣的一個情形這個就必須我們怎麼樣去解決這些問題這個就是你們當初在107年開始研擬規劃一直到行政院109年核定都沒有納入中長城這個才是中長城計劃要去納入的一般的薪資不是中長城計劃"},{"start":11324.774,"end":11348.608,"text":"好不好,這個部分是要請原民會這個要加油因為畢竟這個主管機關不是只有監督啊更重要就是怎麼樣去爭取相關員工的權益因為很重要的流動力本來很高啊現在的流動力就很高了到了那邊之後流動力就更高啊"},{"start":11350.198,"end":11377.436,"text":"所以為什麼過去一直不是很願意積極的去針對搬遷我從來搬遷落成的我也不去啊為什麼員工的權益沒有被保障嘛沒有在那裡面嘛好不好總副主委是加油是誰責任誰責任好非常謝謝鄭天才委員的提醒也希望原民會原文會原語會"},{"start":11379.373,"end":11393.026,"text":"針對員工的權益真的要顧及到然後還有就是我們的文化基金會的費用4.6億人士就佔掉了33%到底還有多少的預算還可以做包括我們園女會"},{"start":11394.347,"end":11416.853,"text":"預算2.9億人事費就花掉13.5%到底還有多少的預算來做相關的文化語言教育的推動這個你們必須要來長期思考跟原民會趕快來討論的部分那所以在今天的報告裡面我們也很遺憾都沒有看到這個部分你們只是把數據提出來但是未來想要怎麼解決這些問題也沒有告訴我們謝謝繼續我們請陳培鈺委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":11428.424,"end":11437.67,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那有請原民會副主委還有客委會副主委客委會的周副主委,謝謝謝謝主席兩位好我想我還是要跟兩位副主委一併討論關於這個食材認定的問題那我想要先說一下在去年的11月27號我就在委員會質詢也請教過不管是原民會或是客委會所有的傳統食材一旦他要入菜"},{"start":11457.782,"end":11474.262,"text":"他必須回到日常生活經驗而且確實我想兩位副主委一定都非常清楚不管是客家傳統食材、原民傳統食材其實在我們日常生活中都很常見而且也很常吃甚至他也是跨族群到另外族群文化當中也都看得見"},{"start":11475.183,"end":11488.531,"text":"可是呢之前就有非常多相關開法的案例我想兩位副主委都清楚我在去年的時候有質詢甚至在12月12號去年也跟吳麗華委員還有湯惠貞委員都開了記者會那我們一直在追相關進度那想要請問一下目前目前兩兩位就我們上次質詢之後到目前為止你們跨部會跟食藥署還或者是農業部相關的討論會議進度到哪裡關於這個食材認定合法安全性的問題"},{"start":11506.038,"end":11521.189,"text":"跟委員報告這個是屬於我們社會福利處的業務跟衛福部其實就有關食材的部分好像都有一些之間的互動跟委託不過因為不是我屬管轄的所以進度可能我還不是那麼清楚那請問他們今天有來嗎"},{"start":11521.949,"end":11540.613,"text":"那還是可以,那客委會這邊呢?關於客家傳統食材的部分在食藥署的平台上他如果沒有被認為是可食用沒有科學證據那可是他可能一旦有業者作為所謂地方創生的創意食材開發或者是變成地方小旅行的時候拿出來做販售那他可能就會產生被檢舉然後就開發老委員報告,因為三月金日出相關的項目當然假設採食創商"},{"start":11549.895,"end":11549.915,"text":"議員提問"},{"start":11571,"end":11582.931,"text":"您參考之後,是否合乎您喜歡上述原住民族的所有合格狀的傳統事宜的東西,一定會符合您為尚福利普相關的規定,現在一定是照規定來做的。"},{"start":11595.575,"end":11614.948,"text":"好,沒關係,這邊可以,謝謝。好,各位委員選民,現在讓我先給你們介紹一下香港的項目。雙非談合這順子後,我們對地方上有推廣的、合作的設計行,還有所有地方上有香港的事的東西,都一定會找我們衛生福利部香港的規定來做。現在預想到委員報告"},{"start":11617.423,"end":11643.38,"text":"可是就是因為按照衛福部食藥署的規定就會產生被開罰的問題所以當時我們在質詢的時候就拜託兩個委員會必須要跟食藥署跟農業部進行跨部會溝通如果它就是日常而且真實在生活中有在用的那它又作為地方創生或是相關小旅行或是相關創意食材開發的時候難道要叫我們這些年輕的回到部落裡面或是回到村子裡面這些創生的團隊是不是就放棄這些食材"},{"start":11644.461,"end":11673.491,"text":"所以其實我當然知道你們確實是合法合規的可是就是因為現行的法規其實對於這些新創食材或是地方創生的團隊在做的有創意的事情其實是有違背的那這個部分我想 想回到就孫志豪因為又到為復普那篇又交通開放所以才地方創生有去為人特別關心的那一天而已早因為兩下退黨"},{"start":11674.286,"end":11678.612,"text":"香港的法律內政項是幾度發生的問題,其實現在我們沒有任何事項,都是各種地盤、傳統事項,一定要符合香港的法律規定。"},{"start":11690.714,"end":11708.426,"text":"好沒關係先謝謝客家副主委那我想請這個原民會副主委這邊說明一下尤其是我們之前提出的像是老葉或者是月桃那目前最近又有一個新的開發的案例所以我們其實看到是現場所有這些新創料理的困境可是我們一直叫你們要跟食藥署"},{"start":11708.786,"end":11708.906,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"},{"start":11738.806,"end":11738.966,"text":"主席"},{"start":11755.65,"end":11770.908,"text":"電視台、圓明台在三天前還分享了這個節目老葉精華有我不想拿來檢舉它我要講的是這就是我們日常生活中會用的東西甚至在台東慢食節4月30號分享相關的活動你看一下上面有多少菜色是跟老葉有關"},{"start":11772.149,"end":11798.652,"text":"所以我要說的是我不是要你們去檢舉它我希望你們不要誤會而是所有這些創意料理的地方年輕人還有多元族群文化這件事情必須要被尊重所以你們必須要積極跟食藥署溝通讓這件事情在合法合規的情況下之前我也說過你們不管是做問卷也好相關的科學研究證據也好都可以協助地方的年輕人好嗎好 謝謝主席 謝謝兩位好 謝謝陳佩玉委員也謝謝中副主委兩位副主委 謝謝"},{"start":11800.133,"end":11814.618,"text":"繼續我們請丁薛忠、丁薛忠、丁薛忠委員不在張志倫、張志倫、張志倫委員不在鄭振權、鄭振權、鄭振權委員不在蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在請林倩其委員質詢"},{"start":11823.606,"end":11832.311,"text":"我請中副主委我們認識很久了我一向秉持一個原則以前我看各部會在欺負原民會或者是在地方各單位在對於"},{"start":11845.337,"end":11845.877,"text":"原住民的博物館在哪裡?"},{"start":11873.106,"end":11894.057,"text":"在高雄澄清湖那什麼時候要做?什麼時候完成?預計完成是要8年之後確定嗎?那網路上我們看到的是2032那你確定是8年齁?因為我們等了好幾個8年等了好幾個8年那你們有沒有那現在在我們台東市前博物館你們知道它什麼時候開始蓋的嗎?"},{"start":11896.683,"end":11914.735,"text":"這不清楚那什麼時候開也不知道吧 對不對然後他怎麼樣詮釋這個悲難文化公園怎麼詮釋所謂史前的文化或悲難文化我想這個細節你們可能又更不清楚了我建議部裡面要派人把一直拿掉原住民話語權的任何一個細節"},{"start":11915.896,"end":11941.286,"text":"要做一個檢討每天我在跟這個部分我想文化部是主責單位但是很多東西你們要盯著文化部或者是在一個平台上你們要問他們相關的問題要不然我們可能本來是我們的話語權全部被莫名其妙的一些計劃或其他單位的計劃給稀釋掉了所以來我給你一個建議實錢館從它開始蓋是1998年然後開幕是2002年那"},{"start":11946.369,"end":11971.088,"text":"原住民族博物館2016年其實定案了但是2017年被你們翻案連民進黨的委員都說這是鬧劇一場當時本席也看到這個新聞也感到很無力因為裡面也有很多我們原住民的夥伴提了一些意見我現在看到2032年要完成那不要再跟本席呼嚨所有的賣肉本席都很清楚所以"},{"start":11973.308,"end":11977.057,"text":"這八年,請問你們在原住民族博物館做了什麼?除了"},{"start":11978.459,"end":11999.497,"text":"一個很好的場地當然我很高興為我們族人就是今天的這個主席我們族人的辦公室通通要搬遷到原本也是原住民族博物館參與選址的一個地方那我當然為辦公室高興但是我為我們原住民族博物館在這中間一直被消失感到非常的遺憾那請那個會裡面"},{"start":12004.642,"end":12022.687,"text":"提一下整體的報告從2016年之前默默的在做這件事到後來的翻案到這8年都沒有執行給本席一個清楚的計畫跟報告第二個來本席問一下請問原住民族的轉型正義在哪裡我簡單問好了請問人權博物館裡面有我們原住民的位置嗎"},{"start":12030.954,"end":12057.472,"text":"人權博物館裡面其實也有在轉型正義個人的部分的人權有在納在這個裡面所以我們就是在博物館裡面的一張那別人看待我們都是博物館裡面的一個標本這個請會裡面再做更積極的一個話語的發言那我問一下請問現在還在台北228公園裡面的同胞要往哪裡去"},{"start":12059.895,"end":12064.557,"text":"他們的無力感也就是這八年對於口口聲聲要對原住民的轉型正義有所作為的政府感到無力了吧?"},{"start":12076.789,"end":12093.94,"text":"那我想會裡面是不是這個部分也應該做一個瞭解跟檢討最後還沒有到最後最後前一個請問一下原住民族姓名條例為什麼在上個禮拜還在這個委員會裡面審本能講一下在2012年到2013年本能跟"},{"start":12095.101,"end":12122.656,"text":"貴委員會的主委是在新北市不同的位置那當時本人在文化局聽到他質詢我們的民政局長有關於姓名條例這件事情那他應該很清楚這整件事上個禮拜我看所有的立委還包括我們高經委員還一直感到很無力的事內政部還給我們很多的在現場的一些困境那請問主委應該在他質詢的時候很清楚的知道這件事情該怎麼做這八年他又做了什麼"},{"start":12123.436,"end":12137.638,"text":"要我們所有原住民的委員在上個禮拜還在針對中央這個原住民族姓名條例原住民的部分這麼費心力我在現場看了非常的心痛看不下去了啊"},{"start":12139.615,"end":12160.254,"text":"我講的是照理說本來就是要修你們主委在當新北市議員的時候新北市原住民族博物館他都知道然後他也知道姓名條例應該怎麼處理那這八年我們委員會做了什麼最後蔡英文總統的政見原住民族自治成就了什麼"},{"start":12163.63,"end":12177.836,"text":"現在不好意思齁那個我也只能說因為不是對你們有心情這幾年還包括我在立法院所看到的原住民委員的無力我真的感同身受我們難道要繼續這樣子不僅是過去被殖民接下來被我們的行政單位殖民然後懂得有話語權的有能力的人再繼續殖民我們的族人嗎"},{"start":12192.935,"end":12218.768,"text":"除了我看到主委這八年學了可以用阿美族語來碾壓所有其他族群的語言在正式的場合以外那我不知道原民會在原住民的公共事務上成就了什麼對不起 最後要問的是因為各位會的副主委也上來了可不可以請你們研究一下畢竟這是內政委員會你們可不可以有一個共識因為剛才陳委員"},{"start":12220.069,"end":12247.51,"text":"在聽那個不好意思副主委您這邊直接對他用客語我還在想說那陳委員是客家人是吧你們很清楚他也理解您講的話你們可不可以有個共識在這個地方在你們推動族語可能有很強的資源那其他有很多可能部落的代表在這裡面都沒有的人那我們要怎麼樣聽懂你們在內政委員會裡面所有的東西請達到一個共識我看剛才陳委員他還要"},{"start":12248.531,"end":12277.271,"text":"還要去聽你們的翻譯機,達到一個共識好嗎?Maybe你們已經有共識了,這是我今天看到的情況。好,謝謝科委會。還有謝謝委員會。好,謝謝林倩卿委員。好,其實事實上我們每一個主語都有透過翻譯機,這是第一個。第二個姓名條例我們已經在內政委員會已經送出了,然後大家委員們很努力很認真,也應該會在這個會期三讀通過,以上跟那個我報告一下。"},{"start":12279.112,"end":12290.224,"text":"登記發言的委員除了不在場者之外其餘的都已經發言完畢我們詢答結束委員張志倫、丁薛忠所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":12298.372,"end":12314.557,"text":"書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一周之內以書面答覆並複製本會因為陳寅委員並沒有在我們議程的相關時間內來登記發言而且今天已經是第二次了我提醒一下委員"},{"start":12315.896,"end":12340.314,"text":"呃,召委同意您發言,但是希望您以後下次盡量在我們的這個登記質詢的時間內到場好不好,要不然的話這會引起我們內政委員會的議事人員還有內政委員會的召委們的一些議論,但是召委已經第二次准許您在不在的時間裡面來質詢,希望下次能夠盡量在時間內,好嗎?謝謝,繼續我們請陳一委員來質詢三分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":12349.552,"end":12377.706,"text":"好 謝謝召委的大度來 我們請中副主委也請中副主委 謝謝主委好那個我想我們就這個原文會薪資結構的問題繼續來做討論那這一張來我們再看一下這也是原文會跟公司薪資結構的比較那不管是這個最低的平均薪資或最高的平均薪資原文會員工的薪水"},{"start":12378.426,"end":12401.56,"text":"大概都比這個公事員工大概少了兩萬元左右那或許有人會說那這兩個雖然都是公營媒體那兩個事業體的形態有很大的差異但是呢就算是形態不同整個薪資結構有這麼大的差異那我想請教說中副主委你覺得這個差異這個問題在哪裡你覺得他們"},{"start":12408.58,"end":12427.586,"text":"這樣都沒有問題嗎我覺得應該差異大對他們的生活環境跟品質應該還是有差別所以我們現在也在檢討院會也有提出需求那當然這個部分在111年6月有曾經調新過那時候調4%不過那已經有好幾年前的事那以物價上漲來講還是差距很大"},{"start":12429.406,"end":12449.793,"text":"那很高興你有這樣的提認所以我想接下來我會有一些比較具體的一個建議那我們再來看一下就是這是歷年軍工叫薪資調整的幅度那中央社的員工呢他們這個整個薪資結構就是跟著軍工叫薪資調整那軍工叫2005年調整3%"},{"start":12452.914,"end":12477.997,"text":"那一年原民台剛成立我們就姑且不去算這3%但是2011年、2018年還有2022年以及2024年這四年軍工教新資調整比例共14%中央社也就跟著調整14%而原民台成立將近20年"},{"start":12479.798,"end":12500.133,"text":"整個這個薪資水準那才調整過一次所以在2022年調整4%那副主委這樣子的調整速度對員工會的員工會不會太不公平基本上看起來是比較不公平那近20年來的物價波動應該也不止4%吧是不止"},{"start":12502.054,"end":12525.624,"text":"好 那原文會呢 從成立以來呢 軍公教調薪14%再扣掉原文會2022年有調整4%差距10%的部分好 我希望就是明年可以補齊是 各位報告 這個部分這一次原文會有提出8%的調薪那這個部分我們會爭取額度外的經費來予以調整"},{"start":12527.551,"end":12550.209,"text":"好那預算要怎麼調整就是說你們就可以從原民會直接撥補嗎?基本上因為我們撥給原民會是4.621是整個包在裡面含他的薪資的部分所以要擴充他們的經費我們很希望就是用中長城計劃的部分能夠把那個4.621的框架跳出來然後能夠增加多一點"},{"start":12550.669,"end":12572.862,"text":"那我想就是在下個會期預算審查的時候我想我一樣會來提這個決議那就是說本席的要求是希望明年調整10%所以我想我預告了這樣子的一個數字那希望就是說大家可以提早準備好好嗎好 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半導體15班 總共目前已經有2300多學生 合作的企業將近有200家那在高等教育深耕的主策的部分 特別也透過這樣的一個系統 面對未來臺灣各大學校院越來越多的國際學生 能夠以提供最好的支持跟服務"},{"start":2474.456,"end":2474.896,"text":"臺灣優華語計畫以美歐紐澳為主要地區透過"},{"start":2493.623,"end":2518.71,"text":"我國華語文教學能量的大學跟美歐地區優質的大學來合作那目前112學年度已促成我國21所的大學跟上述這些國家68所的國外大學建立了合作關係那詳細的內容請委員來參閱那麼感謝委員關注高等教育的議題面對內外環境的迅速變化及國際人才的競爭那麼教育部會持續"},{"start":2521.291,"end":2536.679,"text":"透過放寬招生規定推動各項國際招生計畫來協助大學能夠營造國際化的環境也能夠招收更多的國際學生來臺充實產業所需人才並藉由跨部會的合作跟國際合作促進華語文教育的推廣"},{"start":2537.739,"end":2549.169,"text":"這部份教育部也會持續以這樣的基礎來滾動修正作為未來政策的評估 敬請委員能夠持續給予這樣的國際招生的發展的議題還有教育的相關議題來支持跟指教 謝謝好 謝謝潘部長 然後我們補充介紹在場的委員 有無配意委員"},{"start":2559.984,"end":2577.874,"text":"還有洪孟凱委員那請問對於上次會議議事錄大家有沒有任何的意見沒有意見的話那我們就是議事錄就確定那接下來呢我們就要進行詢答每位初期委員質詢時間是8分鐘必要時間延長2分鐘列席委員質詢的時間是4分鐘發言登記截止的時間是10點30分"},{"start":2586.538,"end":2603.707,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案．請在上午10點30分前提出．在本委委員會臨歉期委員質詢後．我們就立即進行處理．處理提案的時候若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．我們原力不予處理．我們首先就請發言登記第一位的陳培雲委員質詢謝謝主席．有請潘部長來 潘部長 謝謝"},{"start":2615.2,"end":2618.585,"text":"委員早部長早安在520以前我想應該這是最後一次跟您在質詢台上對話那我想首先我要以家長的身份感謝部長這幾年的辛勞怎麼說因為在很多過往的經驗當中很多人都會說潘部長是最懂國教的部長"},{"start":2630.982,"end":2653.339,"text":"那也因為這樣所以在很多的國教議題上確實看到潘部長有非常非常多非常積極的作為例如說我從去年地補到現在在國教法特教法霸凌防制準則還有三聘辦法還有性平教育法其實都可以看得見部長對於國教的關懷那我很好奇部長您在這一段工作時間當中你自己覺得最有成就感的事情是什麼"},{"start":2654.884,"end":2667.31,"text":"謝謝委員剛才的鼓勵我想在這將近7年多我剛剛算過了到520是2645天因為其實在過去這段時間也正是面對我們非常多項的衝擊那108課綱是這些年一個比較重大的對於尤其剛才委員談到高中以下的這些課程改革要面對未來"},{"start":2682.557,"end":2682.817,"text":"維也根委員報告：最大的挑戰："},{"start":2701.556,"end":2730.341,"text":"其實是這三年的疫情真的是看到全世界在面對疫情後很多學校學生這個學習中斷的情形尤其最嚴肅的是入學的部分來中斷但臺灣這些年因為中央地方政府還有學校大家一起努力我們幾乎沒有讓孩子的學習中斷尤其是各項重大的入學考試克服各項的困難也能夠讓他執行因為這對孩子未來的升學發展對家長"},{"start":2731.181,"end":2745.038,"text":"那都是很重大的事但是那個因為疫情的變化千變萬化每一次我們都謹慎以待還有跟指揮中心能夠有特別的方案保障到每一位孩子不因為疫情甚至他確診了最後還是能夠讓"},{"start":2746.92,"end":2747.04,"text":"臺灣走過來了"},{"start":2762.534,"end":2787.297,"text":"好 謝謝部長我自己的小孩確實也是在疫情那一年正要考試我印象非常深刻那一天我們考完第一天會考決定到底第二天能不能考還好教育部跟當時的蘇院長決定讓我們繼續考完所以我也印象非常深刻這是部長您剛剛說你覺得最有成就感的事情但是我們另外要問有沒有在您任內覺得很遺憾沒有辦法完成但是你會願意放在交接清單的前三名跟下一位部長溝通"},{"start":2788.078,"end":2804.251,"text":"我覺得這也是國人非常好奇跟關心的我跟委員報告因為這些年我們雖然大家都很努力包含大院我們教育會的委員一直在關心學校這些校安霸凌等等包含一些歧視的問題因為我覺得"},{"start":2806.012,"end":2826.089,"text":"校園實在是一個支持孩子學習的地方那經常有一些個案影響的發生所以在這方面加上我覺得整個社會環境大幅的變化對孩子在心理情緒學習上確實有相當的影響那也有一些在校園自傷自殺的這些個案"},{"start":2827.71,"end":2855.862,"text":"這部分我一直覺得一定要再持續的努力那學生輔導法雖然教育部已經做相關草案的整理但是在大家意見的整合這方面看起來還需要再做努力學生輔導法我覺得務必一定要能夠來就目前我們所遭遇的面向來多加協助我想未來也要麻煩委員這邊我們大家再做努力雖然儘管像大學校院"},{"start":2856.522,"end":2858.824,"text":"我相信是比較能夠齊心協力支持孩子在未來這些發展上的需求"},{"start":2885.342,"end":2899.775,"text":"非常謝謝部長的回覆其實我還蠻驚訝部長提到學輔法因為我心裡面幫你放的也是學輔法因為我想說這件事情確實是很多而且最近也才發生桃園的霸凌事件我相信部長您都知道好 那這個部分就先謝謝部長的回應等一下我準備了一本繪本要送給部長我剛剛說你是最懂國教的部長"},{"start":2905.2,"end":2930.569,"text":"這本書呢在過去我跟部長討論很多議題的時候我發現你對國家階段的孩子真的有滿滿的耐心跟愛心這本書我自己非常喜歡這個作家今年也要到國際書展來書名就叫做飛一下休息一下再想一下我覺得很適合部長也許接下來休息但是休息完不要都沒有再往下做我相信部長在教育議題教育領域一定還有東西可以發揮那這個書等一下就送給部長好那接下來回到今天的主題來下一個謝謝"},{"start":2932.851,"end":2949.891,"text":"今天雖然在台的國際招生教育部的業務報告也提了非常多跟企業合作或是學校的設立可是我想問一下我們其實關心的是無國籍者是否可以來台就讀我們往下看下一頁去年某北部大學他們招收了一個無國籍藏人學生後來行政院跟教育部有介入相關的協調"},{"start":2952.093,"end":2970.527,"text":"後續也發函告訴北部的大學不要再收相關的學生可是今年這個學校又再次收到來自西藏學生的申請四名藏人學生再被校方以教育部的指導下以無國籍為由拒絕相關申請但是我想部長您一定非常熟悉相關議題我就不再多說下一頁我們有沒有機會請部長來想一想或是跟下一屆的部長再交接這個議題"},{"start":2974.15,"end":2992.051,"text":"修正外國學生來臺就學辦法因為其實在無國籍學生就讀國民小學及國民中學辦法在依照大學法25條另訂關於無國籍學生來臺就學辦法跟要點我覺得這個事情我們在看國際人才的時候其實很多人都知道很多藏人學生是來自於印度對那印度"},{"start":2994.574,"end":3018.119,"text":"那如果我們在很多南向政策上必須要跟這些國家有接軌的經驗那也許這些學生就是我們非常好的新南向的好幫手那相關辦法修訂之前有沒有機會藉由過去的相關經驗面對無國籍藏人的求學申請服以達賴老媽基金會作為保證機構的配套這個部分我想也許今天部長來不及回應但是後續是不是可以跟新部長有交接的機會"},{"start":3019.159,"end":3038.153,"text":"是,謝謝委員,因為這些年,就像委員提到的,我們在國中小其實也有突破大院這邊也支持,那過往香港政治比較危急的階段其實也有一個比較具有彈性的措施,對港生要來我想這部分我會請國際事這邊持續來跟外交部就這方面的議題,因為確實已經也陸陸續續這種情況了"},{"start":3044.838,"end":3045.258,"text":"這跨部會我相信應該可以找到應應的措施"},{"start":3057.722,"end":3068.11,"text":"好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席署長520之後我猜想您會繼續留任喔那所以有很多事情要持續跟部長拜託跟討論這個是全大運的開幕現場署長您有在現場在畫面中其中有一個可憐的選手他的心情非常的錯綜複雜可是他還是乖乖地把聖火這個工作完成發生了什麼事情呢他其實被取消了資格其中有一個選手他曾經在過往"},{"start":3081.22,"end":3083.161,"text":"我曉得這部分有經過我們主委會開會決議還是必須依照競賽規程取消他的資格"},{"start":3102.352,"end":3125.976,"text":"目前看起來辦法是這樣可是我們來看一下可是這個一刀兩斷的切法真的合理嗎再跟署長分享另外一個案例一日體資生中日體資生這件事情我覺得也是相關類似的爭議所以目前這個事情我剛剛說那兩個選手其中一個選手他們也很願意接受目前的仲裁結果可是這樣的限制是不是合理我們來看一下今天他不是透過單項協會的選拔也不是體育署的審查報名"},{"start":3129.577,"end":3129.757,"text":"主席"},{"start":3144.534,"end":3159.367,"text":"是不是可以跟署長討論其實通盤檢討相關的規程分級制度的合理性檢視目的跟手段的一致性這件事情還有認真思考第三方公正第三方仲裁作為救濟的可能性我相信署長從上院到現在一直很致力想要解決整體制度結構面的問題系統性的問題非常的困難可是有沒有機會從一個一個這些案例來看相關的事情"},{"start":3167.728,"end":3177.573,"text":"報告委員我想這個資格的部分的確這可能在我們的體育紛爭仲裁方面我們想接下來再跟委員一起來討論一下他的確在當時在訂那個法的時候針對這個比賽現場的資格的問題的確沒有辦法像國際的仲裁"},{"start":3187.157,"end":3192.26,"text":"關於國家代表隊的風紀的問題其實相關的新聞我相信署長你一定都有印象那到底國家隊集訓期間跟比賽期間教練跟球員是不是都不可以喝酒這部分我想先請署長說說看"},{"start":3207.429,"end":3223.715,"text":"報告委員其實我們大部分的國家隊隊員都非常的自律那好那教練的部分呢在集訓期間教練可以喝酒嗎教練的部分基本上他們外出我們基本上不會做太多的限制但是他們其實還是會自律絕對不會有太誇張的行為出現那你認為可不可以喝酒"},{"start":3224.295,"end":3227.018,"text":"維持清醒跟你剛剛一直不說死到底可不可以喝酒對你說他有他個人的實踐可是我們來看往下一頁"},{"start":3241.155,"end":3268.166,"text":"我們其實收到相關投訴那個前一天那個4月25號男足U20教練團跟廠商喝酒然後還拍照上傳到社群媒體可是剛剛署長你一直不肯說他到底可不可以喝酒你只說他保持清醒可是我還是要說這件事情其實真的有觀感的問題那當然很多球員都非常的自律很多選手都已經很自律可是教練這個狀態真的可以嗎那因為可是我剛剛問了三次署長你都沒有說實我想相關的看法我們都還需要討論署長你覺得呢"},{"start":3269.867,"end":3270.147,"text":"黃孟楷委員"},{"start":3306.567,"end":3329.592,"text":"主席 謝謝 麻煩請潘部長來 部長 謝謝委員長部長 在進入今天的專案報告之前我先請教時事問題上禮拜又看到說桃園某高中有女學生被霸凌的一個事件影片瘋傳 請教有沒有看到這個影片這部分 同仁有跟我特別提到"},{"start":3330.919,"end":3355.781,"text":"到目前為止今天居然講到的是說這一個加害者他還有假道歉在上禮拜這個事情發生之後假道歉然後居然是再去提告這一個被害者說被害者公然侮辱他就是說事實可以這樣子黑白顛倒嗎?看到那個影片裡面加害者是直接拿利檢來對於這個被害者頭髮"},{"start":3358.163,"end":3378.693,"text":"衣物來去做攻擊、撿毀那校方第一時間居然還講是說他們原本是好朋友因為網路的言論所以不和那馬上又被大家就是砲轟啊就覺得是說難道社會安全網、教育安全網是魚死網破嗎那誰敢再去讓學生去這個學校"},{"start":3380.288,"end":3380.328,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":3410.128,"end":3416.993,"text":"所以學校調查小組到底調查出結果沒有?委員還沒那如果沒有的話學校憑什麼先發這個聲明?沒有這個我認為一切都應該以調查結果來做說明再好就像今天我回覆委員你就是說他們明明就還在調查的過程可能不能說這個時候憑哪一個人所知道的資訊就去做這個事件可能是什麼我覺得是不理所以說校方還講校方的聲明"},{"start":3439.071,"end":3467.392,"text":"甚至讓大家就覺得說真的是校方的聲明在網路上大家都看得到講說有關大家關心的事情然後謝謝大家關心跟協助然後通知了家長原本雙方是好友因為與網路語言造成糾紛後續校方將協助處理跟持續追蹤輔導輕描淡寫說實在話我覺得這對於第一線不管說你是什麼樣的教育環境"},{"start":3468.601,"end":3469.702,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":3484.972,"end":3486.474,"text":"你訂出多少準則 如果說第一線的教育工作環境沒有辦法依照這個準則來做"},{"start":3501.836,"end":3515.098,"text":"委員這個也正是說所以人家才會講是說難道非要出人命才會重視嗎今天他是拿力檢去剪頭髮如果說那一天力檢沒有剪到頭髮而是往他身上臉部五官"},{"start":3516.549,"end":3535.175,"text":"沖去其實就一線之隔那是不是就可能造成永久性的傷害那即便不是他今天這個影片出來我覺得對於那個被害者的心理層面我覺得那也是一輩子的傷害那也需要後續的輔導那再者有沒有去掌握這個加害者他到底有沒有相關的幫派背景"},{"start":3535.995,"end":3558.974,"text":"委員這部分可能目前為止因為我就說他正在依照準則來調查的過程我想相信這方面的內容出來之後什麼時間點會出來調查這個我們來督促桃園市政府教育局跟學校因為原來在準則本來就有一個期限所以我想一定要在期限裡面完成而且更重要的是他可能不是"},{"start":3559.775,"end":3563.117,"text":"委員這部分我會請國教署跟桃園市政府交一句我想對這個案子我們必須因為就像委員剛才講到我早上也看到這一則新聞就是這個加害行為人突然又有另外一個想法了"},{"start":3586.189,"end":3586.89,"text":"促進國際生來臺及留臺實施計畫"},{"start":3605.326,"end":3622.097,"text":"其中有講到說會有國發基金提供產學獎助金還有企業提供生活跟實習津貼目前看起來是一個月一萬元左右來吸引這個優秀的國際生來臺就讀跟留臺但是很多外界關心我覺得"},{"start":3623.098,"end":3651.521,"text":"本期還是再次強調國際生願意來臺灣來就讀並且能夠發揮所長我覺得這是好事過去以來我覺得這個政策的宗旨跟出發點是好的但是有一些不孝的不管是學校或是不管是企業他就變成是變價的廉價勞工奴工來造成是說很多人甚至之前媒體有講是說新南向產學專班的亂象跟人口販運一線之隔"},{"start":3653.282,"end":3674.341,"text":"這個標題很重喔那我們現在又在看到是說有這樣的一個生活津貼每個月一萬但是他要有兩年的這個後續有兩年的就業義務那我想請教在這個過程裡面我們教育部有什麼樣新的方式來確實督導不要讓過去的黑工亂象"},{"start":3675.949,"end":3700.507,"text":"委員所指導這部分我跟委員報告新南向產西國際專班確實當時在開始啟動我發現我們也面對這些部分的學校在招收學生上確實有這種便宜形式可能可以透過當地的這些人力、仲介等等的所以我也知道在有一段時間教育部是使出非常強力的要求"},{"start":3701.989,"end":3702.149,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3720.071,"end":3736.974,"text":"那時候甚至還有傳出來說明明當地國的學生要的報考的是觀光科系結果來台灣之後才知道說觀光科系根本沒了然後他要去做餐飲科系然後就完全跟他的想像不同然後人力仲介就說你已經收了這個人力費用你還是要來唸"},{"start":3738.155,"end":3741.758,"text":"所以這個委員知道前面這幾年為什麼有好多的學校在處理這些很不當我想這個不只是影響臺灣在國際高校的聲譽所以幾所的學校教育部是採取非常重的懲罰甚至有幾所已經退場了"},{"start":3760.712,"end":3779.251,"text":"這個也是要 我們希望政府全力 包含企業這一次願意共同來支持那學校招生這是它基本的義務啦如果只是為了招生根本連學生在哪裡學生要讀的什麼都不所以這一次在不管相關的這些辦法裡面都非常清楚的包含最新的促進國際招生的這些作業很多的這個規範"},{"start":3782.734,"end":3804.708,"text":"是把過去遭遇的這些學校疏忽甚至是不當的措施做了這方面的規範部長我們來講一下怎麼樣落實這個督導好不好好你這邊之前有提到是講學金榜學生恐違反勞基法所以教育部你研擬契約範本對不對有什麼時候會出來"},{"start":3806.254,"end":3809.515,"text":"這個已經完成了這部分我們再詳細給委員參考因為我剛才跟委員報告的是說新南向國際產系專班的一些我們說不好的現象其實都是作為我們後續這幾項修正的規範包含實習因為實習還有兩種一種是校內一種還有學生還有打工依照勞基法的規範他有打工的規範像這些我們在相關的實施規範裡面都給學校非常的明確的要求就不會有那種"},{"start":3835.779,"end":3837.881,"text":"第一,絕對不會再出現明明是打工但是他把它算入說他的一個學科,是不是?"},{"start":3851.636,"end":3861.242,"text":"這個已經有前車致電的學校我想學校之間也知道教育部所採取的態度幾乎是沒有什麼打折的機會所以這部分我相信在未來我們面對國際招生跟把這些國際學生能夠有機會留下來臺灣工作等等的我相信大學是非常的清楚我也在大學校長會議讓大學校長們知道"},{"start":3875.351,"end":3897.681,"text":"目的面對生源的困窘情況大家是要全力以赴不要再像過往所出現一些不好的案例對 絕對不要劣幣驅逐良幣其實本席也知道很多的學校他也願意來做比較好的一個人才培養但是就是因為過去有這樣子劣幣驅逐良幣的狀況而造成說他們其實要再招收也不一定那麼的容易是 是"},{"start":3898.701,"end":3905.465,"text":"最後部長你剛剛提到那個契約範本你再提供給本席最後我想確認一下啦因為到目前為止我們講是說5年要投入52億的經費來跟國際生來招收而且現在講說2030年預計國際生可能累積到32萬人但陸生的部分"},{"start":3918.692,"end":3926.042,"text":"到目前為止對 被質疑說沒有善待陸生馬上教育部員拿出來沒有啊陸生在臺灣的就業滿意有高達七成啊就學啦"},{"start":3937.396,"end":3948.705,"text":"對,就學滿意,也高達七成啊那一樣的道理啊,到目前為止難道陸生的部分還是將在這邊嗎觀光客將在那邊,那陸生也要將在這邊我們沒有辦法有更純潤花開的時候比較遺憾的是過去這幾年我們說大學學位生的這部分但是112學年度我看到疫情過後現在研修生的部分又開始恢復當然還不到當時最多三萬兩千多位啦大概目前已經有逐漸"},{"start":3966.98,"end":3967.18,"text":"部長 我這樣請教啦"},{"start":3989.729,"end":4010.231,"text":"因為520下禮拜新政府即將上任新的部長即將上任就你的觀察跟了解到底我們對陸生這一塊學術交流的部分有沒有契機能夠更往前更開放還是說新政府的部分就是會越緊縮兩岸到底有沒有機會透過學術交流或是這個陸生的來台就學"},{"start":4011.112,"end":4012.533,"text":"而有更進一步的一個方向"},{"start":4036.893,"end":4037.213,"text":"接下來我們請萬美玲委員"},{"start":4069.995,"end":4070.275,"text":"潘文忠議員"},{"start":4091.85,"end":4097.714,"text":"大家很關注的從這個把管案然後少子化的衝擊到108課綱的爭議私校退場條例等等那歷經過這些爭議同時呢我們也一起完成過國教法特教法這幾部大法的一個修法我想這個七年多來應該功勞苦勞都有了那所以是不是給你個30秒來談一下你的心得這個一個臨別感言好不好"},{"start":4116.956,"end":4143.615,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員對教育也都很深入所以我們有好多的對話不管在詢答或私下的過程那我也跟委員報告因為教育真的是盤根錯節各方的期待也有很大的差異所以在遂行教育公共政策我自己很堅持的是希望能夠多溝通然後在整個政策的推動各方面也不要太單一一言化這個我一直認為因為你是學生家長的你更知道家長們的期許其實差異也大"},{"start":4146.437,"end":4160.973,"text":"有沒有什麼遺憾我跟委員報告因為教育一棒接一棒我認為這7年多來謝謝大院也給我很大的支持教育部的同仁全力做能做的包括剛才委員講我們去年的兩部大法這個60幾項的執法我也在"},{"start":4164.817,"end":4186.483,"text":"上個禮拜通通把它完成了那當然後續我相信以教育的議題還是不斷我早上我有跟陳培文在講我說學生輔導法這是一個關係到孩子未來在校園內能不能更好的友善互動避免這種遭受人身各方面的攻擊這個我還在努力"},{"start":4187.583,"end":4209.274,"text":"謝謝我想部長一定別有很多話說但是我相信以後您應該還是在教育的領域裡面那很多事情還可以繼續來關心但今天針對招委牌的議題我想來請教一下我們過去有新南向專班對不對現在我們又再增加了一個新型專班這個新型專班大家也是希望能夠擴大國際生來臺留臺的一個計畫我們看到在113年到116年"},{"start":4214.876,"end":4227.791,"text":"總共我們大概預計編列52億的預算那要這個做10個海外招生基地目前也已經有了3個招生基地在做大概我看到您報告上是越南印尼跟菲律賓然後我們預估要招收的人數是1200人"},{"start":4231.795,"end":4237.101,"text":"不過部長我看到您的報告裡面現在合訂了35校123班所以整個人數上是2301人比預估的還要多出了1101人可以說達成率是192%怎麼會這麼多 這個數字是正確的嗎"},{"start":4251.89,"end":4257.772,"text":"跟我們報告這個是正確的數字這個數字是正確的因為這一次在進行專班這部分跟過往國際學生招生有比較大的不同的地方這一次是企業充分的參與因為也是我們國內企業企業充分參與一定是好的因為他還會給他們每個月有像類似生活津貼的這種費用"},{"start":4275.296,"end":4275.796,"text":"委員那個過程還在修正計畫有些學校他們其實已經申請了"},{"start":4294.089,"end":4318.389,"text":"後來計畫修正也確定了所以現在委員這個數據應該是目前為止最新的數據那再來我們看到在過去新南向專班的時候我們畢業留台的就業率那也按照教育部的報告大概64%左右的一個留台就業率那我們現在看到我們現在這個新的計畫是4年希望額外增加來台就學人數是18568人"},{"start":4321.491,"end":4326.473,"text":"那希望留臺就業率是19777人這個數字蠻奇怪的也就是說來臺就學沒有這麼多人為什麼留臺就業可以比來臺就學人更多那甚至於留臺就業率會超過100%"},{"start":4337.158,"end":4366.139,"text":"這個數字是怎麼回事我跟委員報告因為在這個報告裡面教育部有把最近從新南向產息專班到擴大重點領域到現在所提的這一些還有我們的高教生跟他其實是一個能夠以一定的基礎之下再來不斷的來擴充那所以增加出來的這個部分的就業即使包含我們前面的一些他其實會有這樣的外溢的效果你是說包含什麼因為這個數字有一個很大的落差嘛"},{"start":4366.999,"end":4386.324,"text":"因為過往根文報告現在我們在過去的相關的措施國際學生、境外學生留下來在臺灣工作大概4成不是,那個部長我曉得嘛但現在因為你來台的學生數就沒有這麼多那你怎麼會留台的學生數可以超過來台的學生數本席的問題是這一個"},{"start":4387.324,"end":4411.863,"text":"沒有 委員這部分為什麼當時在呈現這個也是要讓委員知道說這幾個措施即使它是增加了我們講的叫外溢的效益那這部分我也跟委員報告因為從哪裡的外溢沒有 它本來也有很多的境外的外籍學生在臺灣所以我們在生根計畫裡面有設了一個非常重要的措施希望學校要成立專責的人員因為以前國際學生畢業以後就回去了"},{"start":4414.085,"end":4428.816,"text":"好部長這樣子本能了解但是我希望你以後報告或計畫要再寫清楚一點因為你專程否這個計畫來一萬八千多個人然後流台要一萬九這就不對了嘛如果你是有外業還有其他的加進來我們當然希望這個人數是可以多的但你不能給這個其實是錯誤的一個資訊好不好這個我們做檢討就正以後我們計畫跟報告數字要詳細"},{"start":4437.102,"end":4455.115,"text":"那接下來部長我還是要請教您一下我想您在任這麼多年其實也非常重視校園霸凌但是早上您也說了我們在桃園的這所私立高中有一部霸凌的影片流出來您也看過了就您看完了以後覺得這算不算霸凌"},{"start":4455.711,"end":4470.803,"text":"委員 這個當然實質我們但如果從影像所看到的當然是霸凌對 從影像上看到是霸凌喔那但是呢 我覺得我們其實在4月16號的時候才新 教育部才新修訂了校園霸凌防制準則嘛 對不對"},{"start":4471.724,"end":4487.292,"text":"我們希望去補所有校園霸凌的一個漏洞盡量把它補這個破網補起來可是才沒隔多久就發生了我們桃園私立高中這個霸凌的案件而且在這中間的處理這個學校可以說是荒腔走板了"},{"start":4488.332,"end":4499.363,"text":"當然我相信沒有一個學校會惡意的刻意的要把這個霸凌案件去壓下來但處理過程的粗糙以及可能沒有按照這個準則去做那就會引起很多的問題好 那我們來看這個霸凌準則下去了以後本身發現其實很多的學校還不太清楚這個準則的這個內容是什麼"},{"start":4510.214,"end":4518.417,"text":"所以我想是不是我們教育部在各個教育局或者是各學校的宣導上面是不是要加強這第一個第二個我們來看這個學校現在大家都在講說在第一時間學校就說家長之間和解了那結果呢更離譜是他說我沒有想說是和解而是我請他們來"},{"start":4534.002,"end":4558.014,"text":"了解教育部就說這個是希望能調解那最後呢其實是大家根本不了解不知道無解你知道嗎那你看喔這個準則弄得亂七八糟以後光一個名詞可以弄到這個事件更複雜所以呢我們看到根據這個準則案件發生24小時之內要通報主管機關嘛對不對那接下來的這個準則部長知道嗎"},{"start":4559.493,"end":4584.309,"text":"這個準的你都了解嗎?你都了解,好那所以呢也要審議小組來認定是不是霸凌五日之內要組成有一半外部委員的處理小組然後才能進入雙方是不是能夠調和、調解或者調查嘛那最短一週、最長不可以超過四個月要把這件事情去結案喔所以我們看到這所私立高中其實都沒有按照這樣的一個步驟在走"},{"start":4585.089,"end":4587.711,"text":"謝謝委員指教這個確實我們這次整個修訂後一個比較大的措施把師對就教職員工對於生拉開來"},{"start":4604.324,"end":4610.848,"text":"那在目前校園霸凌準則就以生對生的來做一個處理所以在機制上讓學校不會混淆但是我應該所提醒的因為霸凌準則花了滿場時間溝通對話我講的是當然在延商這個過程所提出來的那發布到現在時間還算比較短那我應該提醒的雖然過去我們已經辦了幾場的這些宣導說明但我覺得這個部分還要持續的做我們希望還要再加強了好不好對對尤其有個案的"},{"start":4631.399,"end":4647.567,"text":"學校發聲後我們可能更可以用這個機會去了解那學校在執行霸凌準則相關的作業程序有什麼地方是被誤解的部長我們再來看一下有兩個表格第一個就是我本期整理一下108年到112年我們生對生校園霸凌的這個通報跟確認的這個件數我們看那個總計的地方就好108年的時候767件到112年的時候2502件"},{"start":4660.433,"end":4660.553,"text":"第二張表"},{"start":4679.588,"end":4707.205,"text":"是這個各級暴力事件跟偏差行為的一個這個通報的案件數我們也可以看到從108年的9385件一直到112年的26171件也成長了近三倍所以其實部長這一次我們看到這所私立高中的這個霸凌的影片其實真的讓我們非常心痛不要說我也是一個為人母的角色去看任何人看到其實都覺得太離譜太誇張"},{"start":4708.746,"end":4728.101,"text":"那麼先是打巴掌呼頭那麼接下來其實用剪刀去剪頭髮這一幕其實我相信大家看的那不是剪那個孩子的頭髮而是剪得每一個人的心都碎了因為我們要知道其實這個就是一種接近是毀容的行為了身體髮膚受之父母尤其是女孩子最在乎了這個頭髮就像他第二生命一樣所以我想這個事件其實是還蠻嚴重的但是呢我們看到這幾年我們不斷地在做不斷地在關注但是呢"},{"start":4736.707,"end":4736.767,"text":"最後﹖"},{"start":4758.65,"end":4780.967,"text":"在這個案件當中出現一個問題我們都知道現在要求教官退出校園所以不足的人力我們用學務創新人力去代替但是以這個學校本來應該有四名教官缺但因為預缺不補所以只有兩個教官那麼這兩個教官要負責全校一千將近四百個學生所以校安其實有漏洞那你說另外補那兩個缺"},{"start":4782.188,"end":4782.488,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4803.362,"end":4831.921,"text":"那都是由這個教育局去做統一甄選但是一旦在第一時間甄選完畢沒有人要來的時候這個專案結束掉這個學校就繼續空缺了我們是不是能夠因為桃園市教育局其實也有發文到教育部去能不能讓這一些透過統一甄選但是補不到人的學校可以用專案的方式再自行去聘足這個校安人力否則這樣的人力真的不足以支應現在節節高升的校園霸凌跟這個行為偏差事件部長可以嗎"},{"start":4832.605,"end":4859.466,"text":"好,各位報告,我想在人力的徵選補充這方面我請國教署跟學特師再做一個研組因為人還是要到位,因為教官是換成1.5位聘不到人就是0的意思這點我想我請我們兩個單位在這方面來做一個研組因應我想這個您臨別最後給您的一個任務能不能一個月內請他們把這個協議的結果告訴我們可以好,謝謝好,謝謝委員"},{"start":4861.961,"end":4863.122,"text":"主席潘文忠列席"},{"start":4880.284,"end":4904.72,"text":"張維豪部長這是你最後一次以教育部長的身份站在這邊來備詢我想我是第9任的立委我看著你這樣上來然後呢在第11屆的時候呢也要歡送你離去對我來說對你來說應該是感慨非常的多我想這7年多大概是創下我們教育部長這個任內就是留任最大的一個記錄我說實在的部長在這個過程當中當然有8月1月時間你因為卡管案而離開我想卡管不管是對你或是對我"},{"start":4908.743,"end":4911.865,"text":"當時身為一個在野黨委員來說都是一個非常大的傷痕而且呢因為卡管案我們換掉了吳茂坤部長我們換掉了葉俊榮部長然後8個月之後呢你又重新再來我想那個時候因為整個教育部真的是風聲鶴唳我想沒有人敢來接教育部長所以你又再一次的被請求我為什麼講這些的歷史是要告訴你說其實你是深受高層的信任"},{"start":4933.115,"end":4940.177,"text":"所以說呢今天大概七年半的時間當中本席對你是給予無限的祝福希望你未來能夠一切非常的平安順心也能夠繼續發揮你的專業在我們的國教特別是在國教這一塊裡面能夠造福我們更多的學子給予滿滿的一個祝福了沒有功勞也有非常大的苦勞但是話鋒一轉各位我們還是來看我們今天的書面報告"},{"start":4956.121,"end":4965.546,"text":"因為我們今天我們如果只看教育部的規劃或數字你會覺得好像預期非常的政策很成功但是部長我要看到的是一個檢討這部分報告的檢討到底在哪裡來我告訴你有哪些地方我很希望能夠看到的你們告訴我就說穩定成長總數大概11萬6千但是呢我要問"},{"start":4979.133,"end":4999.451,"text":"到底我們國際招生的方式到底是如何是自行申請的多呢還是透過仲介仲介費到底收了多少申選的機制在哪裡還有呢你們每一次的這個獎學金吸引國際學生的方式跟比例到底是如何然後有沒有掌握留在臺灣工作超過一年的一個比例還有在學校裡面的成金獎懲到底是不是我們列為在臺灣工作的條件還有"},{"start":5004.656,"end":5004.756,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5024.724,"end":5029.186,"text":"問題是你們現在所看到的我沒有看到這些檢討報告我可以一一來跟部長討論但是本席所條列的而且我用這個特別框出來的我麻煩部長一個月之內給我一個正確的數字這是非常重要這是我認為的這才叫做檢討那我們就一一來去看一下到底哪些部分可以就教育部長的你看"},{"start":5044.532,"end":5047.995,"text":"我們從P9月你第9月就開始說要擴大招生國際的這個學生然後呢113到145年當中的每年投入5000萬表示5年要投租了2.5億喔那我們國發基金會還要給這個新型專班的學生每人每年10萬總共最多可以補助兩年企業界每個月至少1萬生活津貼所以因為國際學生兩年獲得44萬的補助"},{"start":5075.336,"end":5091.184,"text":"2030年你要給我32萬人請問這32萬人他們的獎助先生跟生活津貼到底是怎麼樣來分配的否則加起來照你們的數據來看起來大概就有1000多萬了應該不是吧那請問有多少人是可以獲得這些補助"},{"start":5092.648,"end":5093.768,"text":"部長現在有掌握這些數字嗎?部長你有沒有考慮過我們台灣年輕人的感受?"},{"start":5112.994,"end":5135.423,"text":"這是一個相對剝奪感我同意一定要招收所有的國際的學生但是你也很清楚最優秀的國際學生不會來臺灣我必須大膽的這樣去講我在大學任教這麼多很多學生很認真但是最優秀的學生是在歐美所以我們要很多很多的學生過來我們要寄出非常多的獎助學金所以我今天是來就教育來討論這樣的狀況所以有多少學生是0可以領到我剛剛說的最高額"},{"start":5141.038,"end":5145.241,"text":"那個學生的人數昨年有一個統計表再請召委來指教就是這個對象的學生那這個國發基金所協助的主要是單程的這個機票的這個費用反過來應該是企業 企業要做的這方面是因為他們要旅行到這個企業裡面去服務的"},{"start":5164.753,"end":5171.856,"text":"很好,那部長接下來就是我的問題了嗎?你要旅行,你要期盼要兩年,請問他如果沒有到兩年拒絕呢?他怎麼辦呢?他如果做半年就離開了,你有充分掌握嗎?為什麼我要特別提出這個問題?因為我們國科會在106到109也提出了海外國人的歸國的計畫,也希望你回來能夠至少留啊,結果你看"},{"start":5184.821,"end":5188.326,"text":"回來了人不多 留下人更少四年我們花了四億多結果回台131只留下97人我們每天要做這樣的事情所以說企業界希望我們留下來你有掌握他們到底有多少人留下來嗎"},{"start":5196.585,"end":5211.515,"text":"跟委員報告當然這個委員剛才一開始只叫那個檢討這個為什麼會有提出後續的這幾個方案其實就是檢討前面像新南向專班這個我想委員最了解的當時有些學校實在是做得非常過頭非常非常離譜當時也聽到很多那時候楊司長都還在啊"},{"start":5217.199,"end":5217.219,"text":"好!"},{"start":5233.628,"end":5235.189,"text":"臺灣已經變成工作的快速通關管道了部長你來看一下我們先從數據來看起104的時候呢其實最多是馬來西亞"},{"start":5256.264,"end":5256.444,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5278.524,"end":5293.212,"text":"增加的快12.5倍了所以我只要問他們到底是來臺灣工作還是來念書的部長你讓我看完這個部分我在學校裡面我徵求非常多大學老師的一個想法專科學校老師很多人拿獎學金不去上課在外面打工"},{"start":5293.832,"end":5297.255,"text":"有良心的老師把關,把他給當掉,他就轉系。那樣的轉系呢,他會失去全額的獎金,他就繼續不上課,就繼續給你打工。然後呢,他就可以混畢業留下來。很容易,像我目前臺北發生的這個寶林茶室的那位月籍的代班廚師,他就是畢業留下來的。"},{"start":5313.55,"end":5326.433,"text":"因為現在的證照你們所謂的這個四證合一的你們的就業金卡連網紅隨便都可以拿到就業金卡你看移民署發具的工作許可居留簽證外僑居留證還有從入國許這個從入國的許可證四勝合一你不覺得現在有人這樣的一個證發的太過於腐爛了嗎"},{"start":5336.294,"end":5359.506,"text":"非常多我沒有說外國學生留下來不可以可是你過去還有一個機制過去你還會要求你要留下來薪資起碼要三萬塊錢以上還有一些可以卡關的一個機制因為要保護所以你現在為了要讓這麼多人你要衝到這麼多的人數所以我才說嘛你的新能向意義到底在哪裡我們會非常的歡迎但是呢就我們以前來最嚴肅的來說外籍學生如果詐騙酒駕打架"},{"start":5363.288,"end":5367.914,"text":"我們沒有辦法給他退學臺灣學生可以退學我當學務長的時候退學的一些的學生經過一些程序可是外籍學生到我們這邊來我們沒有這樣子的一個部分我們到底收的這些學生納稅人的錢我只是說這是一個比例的原則我目前在你的檢討報告當中我沒有看到"},{"start":5382.952,"end":5394.1,"text":"所以為什麼我要需要這些數字我需要這些錢還有我告訴你目前為止我剛所說的都是教育的reality都是現況部長面對這麼多你今天這份檢討報告我說實在的我不覺得你的南向你出來告訴我你有很多的學生但是對我來說那整個實質對臺灣產業對於我們的國際交流來說我覺得還是對我來說還是要畫上一個非常大的問號"},{"start":5406.989,"end":5407.69,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":5424.232,"end":5451.111,"text":"他其實是願意留下來再繼續工作這個是一個已經這個佔比率大概66%那委員剛才提到的現在為什麼我們要求學校你要負責招生你必須負有相當的義務這個對學校採取一個很嚴格的處分但我要跟委員報告的是這幾所甚至委員之前你提到的那些學校退場為什麼會退場因為教育部很清楚的"},{"start":5451.491,"end":5454.352,"text":"因為那些學校做得太過分了但是我剛所調列的這些狀況包括外籍學生你很難給他退學包括外籍學生他們幾乎把打工比念書來得更重要"},{"start":5466.977,"end":5489.505,"text":"那幾乎對於很多東南亞的學生來說都認為臺灣就是個打工的天堂因為而且打完工之後呢學校如果說標準又很低他又可以得到一些的獎助學金即使沒有獎助學金他繼續打工的賺錢的方法然後你要把他發放這個所謂借用金卡這在很多東南亞國家都已經變成是他們的利多可對我們來說的話"},{"start":5490.765,"end":5493.646,"text":"我們花了這麼多錢給予他們過來 給予獎勵學生 給予生活補助他們的對待跟我們本國學生又不一樣你對我的本國學生到底公平在哪裡我跟趙薇報告因為趙薇在我們開始推動新南向這個產息初期確實有遭遇到好多學校在處理不當的包含學生也有這方面的"},{"start":5511.275,"end":5511.655,"text":"教育部本身就有一個陳情專案"},{"start":5531.241,"end":5556.673,"text":"因為我們說從源頭我們已經做了好多的要求這個要求是你看你那個入學通知等等的部分啊是必須要到你的學生再來實習打工分得清清楚楚好部長如果說分得清楚的話因為他們不到你教育部陳請他們到我本席辦公室來陳請好不好所以無論如何把我剛剛所提到的那幾個綠色框出來的不管是數據還有是人數還有一些的做法我覺得這對我個人來說才是今天我們安排這次所謂的"},{"start":5560.435,"end":5560.815,"text":"請教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":5584.277,"end":5585.058,"text":"謝謝柯子恩委員的發言"},{"start":5618.839,"end":5618.859,"text":"羅廷偉議員"},{"start":5634.52,"end":5659.976,"text":"好部長謝謝大學推動國際招生台灣優華我們計畫的執行跟成效跟檢討其實在這個專題我們還有很多想要跟大家就教育部長但是部長我想還是延續我們剛剛柯委員所說的這是最後一次在委員會的一個場合見面那擔任部長7年多我想這是中華民國行線以來任期最長的教育部長"},{"start":5661.016,"end":5664.998,"text":"潘文忠部長的障礙高掛即將卸任,各界對部長的表現也非常肯定。回顧7年多,有沒有什麼感言?"},{"start":5678.06,"end":5703.941,"text":"委員我自己一向就是從事教育工作從當小學老師到行政工作我一直覺得事情可能做不完但是看到的問題真的要逐一的去面對這幾年也確實我跟我們部裡頭的同仁大家就很多多年來可以解決該解決了但需要做處理的包含像去年國教法特教法"},{"start":5704.862,"end":5724.384,"text":"關於全面學校相關的運作等等的 光執法就60幾步了像這些我都很謝謝同仁也看到現象能夠逐一的去做處理所以這部分我想教育一棒接一棒後續我相信新的團隊也會跟同仁這邊繼續在努力"},{"start":5725.745,"end":5752.311,"text":"好我想原本要再問你有什麼未經之夜但我想很多事情都還有待我們再努力當然沒辦法一次把所有的一處集成所有的事情都完成但我想謝部長在本席初就任立委之際第一場的委員會質詢向部長爭取葉光天使延伸到寒暑假國中生的一個試班計畫獲得部長的認同當場允諾推動如同國教署署長所說試班計畫8月就要上路"},{"start":5752.551,"end":5764.338,"text":"到時候我想有機會邀請部長一起到台中到學校一起瞭解事辦計畫的一個情況順便給夜光天使的學生打氣鼓勵不知道未來有機會可以邀請你嗎"},{"start":5765.455,"end":5769.736,"text":"謝謝委員為這些需求家庭的孩子所爭取這個事辦當然國中的這部分在過往我覺得因為孩子比較大但委員這個提議當時我覺得因為夜光天使的情況我非常的了解確實幫到很多家庭比較沒辦法那麼可以支撐孩子的一個措施"},{"start":5788.68,"end":5792.024,"text":"時間因為未定只是我希望這個方案國教署跟委員這邊我們能夠就原來預定8月新的學年的示範能夠順利的展開委員在地方也能夠來持續的關注這是一個好的方案了照顧到很多學生"},{"start":5805.457,"end":5824.346,"text":"謝謝 我常常一直在講這個計畫也是希望我們在跟某些特定的團體甚至是黑道組織在搶孩子我們希望能夠更認真用心的有這個機會場域去關心每個孩子讓孩子不要學壞讓孩子能夠在這個學業的過程當中或者是非學業的過程當中能夠感受到我們有其他的資源在挹注他們"},{"start":5826.047,"end":5849.022,"text":"但是講到這個我就還是要再提到其實剛剛的立法委員也都有提到包括紅夢凱委員萬美玲委員他們都有在講就是桃園這一個霸凌案件那當然眾說紛紜有人說這個孩子霸凌者的這個背景是可能有黑道組織的背景家境這樣的環境我們不確定"},{"start":5850.103,"end":5867.734,"text":"但我們非常關心我想還是再一次拿出這樣的數據108年到112年我們的暴力事件跟偏差行為的通報從不管是國小國中高中我們可以看到可以說是至少都2.3倍到4倍以上的一個成長"},{"start":5869.055,"end":5888.684,"text":"這不敢說是一定是教育有問題因為整個不管是我們的社會風氣以及我們的電影文化還有一些藝術去影響到他們會有這樣子的一個偏差行為都有可能可是我們看到在剪頭髮這個部分在這一次的案件令許多的家長觸目驚心一直紛紛的傳這些影片給我們"},{"start":5890.325,"end":5910.25,"text":"讓我們沒辦法在這一次委員會就主題上我們很想討論但是在這一次的事件的突發性讓我們必須慎重我們還是希望在校園的霸凌事件我們該如何防範剛剛有人講到所謂的校安問題我們可能要用到的是可能是這些教官可是現在我們也在努力心理輔導法"},{"start":5911.05,"end":5931.416,"text":"我們希望在這個部分各個部分都應該要去著重如何去防範這部分後續的一些心理輔導不管是霸凌者跟被霸凌者我們要去關心那學校有沒有去做相關的人等的一個調查以及他的背景調查這部分有掌握嗎是 謝謝委員委員就一點點時間我來報告一下"},{"start":5933.337,"end":5958.172,"text":"通報數字這個在我自己這麼這些年來不管在性平事件等等的我強烈的要求一定要那不是鼓勵那叫克責克責的意思是發現了就要通報不管先判斷它是真與否這個是我認為過去多年大家常常會說這裡頭有好多好多的黑數所以我剛才提到說成長幾倍這個本來政策就是克責"},{"start":5959.513,"end":5981.507,"text":"對 當然我沒有批評啊我相信就是把黑素找出來也是一件好事啊第二個我也跟委員報告這一次長達一年左右的時間去對於校園霸凌防制準則做修改這當中也確實做到非常多第一個就是說師對生的部分我們認為不要一直在這個裡頭他放在教師解聘不續聘的辦法當中來處理那生對生這一次在剛才委員說的嘛"},{"start":5985.689,"end":5985.809,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6004.562,"end":6012.068,"text":"一定要有一個非常清楚的調查小組去做事項的釐清跟做後續的組織那第三點我跟委員補充那我也知道學校因為在地方也知道學校其實要面對這些調查等等在人力資源各方面其實常常是比較困窘的所以在今年我也特別針對霸凌事件針對性平等等的事件讓學校不要說資源不足就比較"},{"start":6030.162,"end":6057.005,"text":"臺灣優華語計畫"},{"start":6057.265,"end":6080.05,"text":"是落單的我希望他是有更多的支持不管是網路事件的一個延燒到其實我的選區其實也蠻多有這樣子言語被霸凌進而選擇休學我們都很擔心這樣子孩子他落單了在這個休學的過程當中他可能會覺得沒有就放棄學業了甚至他不願意去學習一個人才的培育真的不易"},{"start":6080.53,"end":6109.842,"text":"那當然我們再回到剛剛所說的就像柯志文委員在說的我看到這些數據其實我們也擔憂國際生還有國內生的一個關注我們當然知道要延攬人才的一個重要性我們支持但是我們希望在合理的一個前提下以及剛剛所提出的這些數據上我們一定要去好好瞭解到底誰是人才誰是單純來打工用著打工的名義來行使勞工這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":6110.642,"end":6135.216,"text":"並不是來真正讓我們來做一個教育培育人才的一個政策我想這個部分是可以有待我們做檢討的那再來我想就簡單的就叫世界上這麼多的國家臺灣有哪些優勢來推動國際招生其實我們大概也都知道我們是劣勢啦畢竟在這個部分上我們提供這麼多的一些資金就是希望能夠延攬人才的意願但是國際的趨勢還有國家"},{"start":6137.537,"end":6152.303,"text":"各個國家有各個國家他們可能有自己先天的產業優勢都有可能影響到國際生他的一個選擇但我想問一下最近我們有沒有什麼碰壁的地方現在跟部長在討論的是香港的招生5月9號的新聞美國的媒體報導"},{"start":6156.286,"end":6168.386,"text":"說這個臺灣大專院校被中聯辦打壓取消在香港的招生活動5月11的新聞港府憂慮賴政府兩岸論述暫停我大學赴港招生宣傳有這一類情勢嗎"},{"start":6169.949,"end":6170.089,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6191.149,"end":6203.779,"text":"最近這兩年我有觀察港澳的招生確實我們有面對一些可能來自於對岸政治上的一些措施因為原本我們的人數像香港這個人數其實是一直在成長但尤其從去年111我就發現有降那這個現象我覺得跟香港這些年已經在中國這邊的政治相關的我覺得受到影響"},{"start":6219.571,"end":6245.115,"text":"我想就教育家的觀點當然我們希望教育不要扯上政治但是兩岸是否和平共存才是學生以及家長選擇的重點我想這個部分當然有多方的考量但是我們看到實際的數據110年到111年我們的香港的學生大概9000多位112年7800多位所以在這個部分我想部長在即將卸任前就教育工作的一個領航者"},{"start":6245.435,"end":6271.938,"text":"建議未來內閣應該如何解決有沒有什麼因應知道委員這個因為港澳跟中國的關係委員這個很了解所以他們直接被影響的是很直接那對於兩岸青年學生的這個交流我想教育部本來就一直都持開放的尤其疫情過後像他們學生有所限制中國這邊直接就限制但是研修生在112學年度又開始出現"},{"start":6273.539,"end":6274.379,"text":"大陸學生到臺灣來求學的滿意度很高"},{"start":6291.735,"end":6319.057,"text":"我想人才大家都在搶人才我們一起來為臺灣努力那我想催伐天然資源的臺灣最重要的資產我們就是要培育人才但是我們也希望就像剛剛科委員所提供的這些數據其實我們聽到以後我們也很擔憂國際生國內生我們也希望不要造成整個資源的偏差我們當然支持臺灣要搶人才但是我們也希望重視國內生的一些發展以及很多人都學貸啦"},{"start":6319.717,"end":6320.878,"text":"對國內學生減輕負擔這絕對是我們的政策"},{"start":6353.002,"end":6355.303,"text":"好 謝謝兩位接下來我們請葉元之委員我請部長 謝謝來 部長 謝謝"},{"start":6371.609,"end":6391.498,"text":"今天我們是在討論就是說我們的大學怎麼去國際招生主要是因應少子化甚至於就是說可以招攬一些外籍生然後未來可以輔導他在臺灣就業補充我們勞動市場應該主題是這個沒錯那我想問一下我們教育部在推動這相關計畫的時候KPI是什麼是以人數當作KPI嗎"},{"start":6393.399,"end":6397.82,"text":"跟委員報告人數只是其中之一其實我們為什麼到後續在大學的發展體制裡面高教生跟計畫的二期會把國際化作為一個很重要學校去做的是因為有越來越多的國際學生到臺灣來那些的服務措施包含怎麼樣去做才會好的品質"},{"start":6417.167,"end":6418.309,"text":"人數越多越好還是人數有總和限制?"},{"start":6425.117,"end":6449.306,"text":"委員 這個年數其實每一個計畫裡面都有一個規範所以是沒有說越多越好所以像新南向產息專班照為最了解的你會控制在一定的名額以內我們是要嚴格審查計畫對 嚴格審查但是是多多益善所以不是在求量如果說有越多很優質的學生願意來我們就盡量開放他是真的來臺灣求學而不是螢幕粉珠來打工等等的"},{"start":6450.446,"end":6478.598,"text":"如果他是來求學之後去做勞基法所允許的公讀這當然不是問題了解,謝謝部長因為我非常很高興聽到你講說會嚴格把關不是以人數濫於充數但我知道說我們教育部補充就是說補助給一些很多新南向的學生非常多的錢但你們實際上有沒有去追蹤他們來之後到底對於臺灣教育甚至於對我們就業市場有多大幫助我不知道到底有沒有做這樣審核"},{"start":6479.478,"end":6505.616,"text":"然後再來齁實際上我發現就是我們以我們數據來看好像我們多版新南向國家非常多啦我知道新南向是蔡政府的政績嘛就主要都一直在講新南向但新南向也有很多國家那實際上好像特別重視越南印尼跟馬來西亞光是這三個國家的學生呢就佔了將近六成不知道為什麼其他國家不能不能積極去去招生呢"},{"start":6506.227,"end":6518.53,"text":"為了我們會積極那為什麼那個鼓勵失衡那麼多不是不是這是因為他們第一個他們也要有意願來啦那為什麼只有他們有意願招生本來意願本來就是看你怎麼招嘛"},{"start":6519.925,"end":6535.315,"text":"委員我們有一個十個招生基地目前這三個我點出問題啦我們希望說既然你希望透過這個方式國際化國際化當然國家多多益善不要太只重視幾個國家然後再來就是既然我們"},{"start":6536.636,"end":6557.237,"text":"想要推動這種大學的跟國外的交流當然是想要補充國際市場我不知道說陸森為什麼老師被排斥是為什麼沒有啊那是中國排斥不是我們沒有沒有沒有去年侯友宜侯友宜新北市長在選總統的時候也有提出說希望有陸森來台就學嘛然後可以留下來工作啊就被民進黨罵爆啦說這些陸森會大量搶臺灣的年輕人的工作"},{"start":6560.64,"end":6578.042,"text":"但我覺得很奇怪我們教育部不是對於陸生留下來工作有相關的管制嗎那為什麼這些民進黨立委會提出這樣的質疑呢然後再來就是我們找那麼多越南印尼馬來西亞人來這邊讀書就業就不怕他們搶我們年輕人的工作嗎差別在哪"},{"start":6579.011,"end":6580.272,"text":"所以你也很怕說開放陸森來會搶我們年輕人的工作?"},{"start":6600.981,"end":6626.988,"text":"韓議員長韓議員長韓議員長"},{"start":6627.328,"end":6653.227,"text":"聯誼活動的時候有提到嘛就是說希望英國一些名校可以來臺灣設分部那他主要是認為所假設英國的名校在臺灣設分部我們周邊的國家其他國家學生也可以來就學可以增加一些國際學生交流的機會部長你知道這事嗎?那個跟委員報告如果依照私校法的部分是合作開班嗎?不是他是希望能夠設臺灣分校啦你知道這事嗎?"},{"start":6654.841,"end":6670.73,"text":"你不知道?沒關係啦沒關係啦因為這個部長日理萬機啦也不見得知道院長講過什麼但是有一個人講過你不知道就有點誇張那個賴清德在2017年的時候他也說希望外國名校可以來台設分校而且他還講喔他說來台設分校"},{"start":6671.31,"end":6671.55,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6689.275,"end":6706.158,"text":"北大復旦來他都沒有設限那我現在不是說要針對北大復旦我現在只是想問韓院長講了你說你不知道但是賴清德前行政院長2017年講過然後去年的政見他也主張這件事情那教育部到底有沒有接受這個訊息有沒有著手去推動這個方案"},{"start":6707.608,"end":6718.466,"text":"跟委員報告 現在如果依照私校 他們來以私校法的規範他必須遵循 這個可能就需要再做一些突破了不是啊 那在京的講話你都沒有在聽 這他講的捏"},{"start":6722.312,"end":6723.213,"text":"這個部分要修施效法 謝謝"},{"start":6746.967,"end":6770.544,"text":"不是你告訴我要怎麼困難我是說你有沒有要做這個事情啊這是賴清德準總統獎你有沒有要做沒有哇塞這個司長很大尾捏居然打臉那個賴清德準總統我覺得不是我故意的找你麻煩我是用那個賴清德講話一個字一個字唸出來的所以你們不曉得這個事情還是賴清德開巴拉票"},{"start":6773.479,"end":6801.422,"text":"沒有,委員這個部分在目前來講,我想後續,如果是私校法可以在大會討論嗎?不是我們在大會討論,是你們準總統說要推的東西什麼我們大會討論你們開的證件可以隨便講講,面對學生的時候講一套然後現在我們在立法院問的時候就說立法委員你們要推你們自己大會討論,這太奇怪了吧然後高校師長說要修私校法,變立法委員的事那賴清德以後什麼事都不用開支票了嘛"},{"start":6802.342,"end":6822.711,"text":"進選連任的時候也不用講這些有的沒的反正也沒有要落實最後我來問一個問題最近大家非常關心行政機關到底可不可以隨便把一些公文或一些文件列密等因為我想請教一下既然高校師長朱師長在現場請教一下我們蔡英文總統的論文深等論文是不是現在是密等"},{"start":6823.319,"end":6823.499,"text":"請市長回答好不好"},{"start":6844.782,"end":6861.509,"text":"根據什麼法律?你不能自己說要列就列嗎?臺灣是依法行政還是依你朱司長的命令?什麼辦法?什麼法律?請問一下行政機關處理文書守則哪一條說深等論文要列密等?"},{"start":6868.871,"end":6888.772,"text":"請問一下升等論文為什麼是各自我問過非常多的大學教授他說升等論文哪有是密等這種事大家都是根據已經公開的論文或公開的文章拿去升等這些都公開的為什麼只有我們蔡英文總統升等要列為密等密等年限多久"},{"start":6890.437,"end":6897.594,"text":"論文本身並沒有好啊 那你就把他的論文公開啊論文已經公開了不是 深等的內容"},{"start":6898.777,"end":6922.058,"text":"深等論文的內容是公開的是申請的那申請表跟我們教師資格審查的那個過程那個是秘密等所以他的深等論文有公開?公開在哪裡?目前國圖國圖那個是學位論文嘛國圖中政大跟中原大學的圖書館都可以知道你講的是學位論文還是深等論文?"},{"start":6923.188,"end":6946.48,"text":"深等的論文深等的論文在國圖跟政大政大我們有去查過圖書我們會後可以好那學位論文你說你有看過在英國的倫敦學位政經學院有看過我本人我本人沒有到英國看過你沒有看過那為什麼你當時可以出來講說那個論文是真的那請問一下那個論文是當初蔡英文總統她在英國畢業的時候交給圖書館的還是後來才補交的"},{"start":6950.806,"end":6958.932,"text":"我問的問題你就直接回答我那個是他畢業之後拿去的還是後來大家在質疑他沒論文的時候拿去的是哪一個時間點"},{"start":6961.139,"end":6978.007,"text":"這個部分有沒有透過駐英代表跟你回答我問題什麼透過駐英代表問你是時間點是哪一個嘛不要在國會殿堂在那邊耍嘴皮子哪一個時間點委員這個部分在國會一點都沒有例外我問師長包含所有的教授的論文一致的規範部長不好意思部長我現在的問題是說"},{"start":6980.888,"end":6986.813,"text":"你們的司長公開講過蔡英文總統的學位論文在英國讀書館上班在問你是說是他畢業交過去還是後來遺失被補教的嗎?你回答我這個問題嗎?不是我剛剛對你很客氣啦我現在就是論事了你怎麼那麼急著出來問話呢?"},{"start":7001.364,"end":7006.388,"text":"當你出來插話的時候我就知道你心虛了啦委員你問得過頭了我當然要說明我問哪裡過頭不是他不是英國圖書館的館員嗎市長之前講說他看過嘛我現在問說看過的那一份是之前說醫師後來補教的還是畢業之後就教的嘛因為現在大家質疑的是說所有的畢業生通常畢業都要繳論文給圖書館那為什麼蔡總統沒有嘛那今天市長出來講說有啊"},{"start":7026.823,"end":7027.304,"text":"這個論文是公開的 委員"},{"start":7045.682,"end":7066.088,"text":"誰問你是不是公開的我當然知道他有公開嘛他後來2019年有個白手套記者會有公開我現在問的是說你們看過那一本是他畢業教的還是後來白手套公開之後再補過去的嘛這問題很難回答嗎不會難回答為什麼市長可以在不了解狀況的情況之下直接出來認證說那個論文是真的"},{"start":7067.37,"end":7092.482,"text":"那個是租賓的代表裡面已經確認了他只是轉達這個概念所以你們教育部可以隨便租賓代表講了一個東西之後然後就沒有查證就隨便出來背書教育單位是這樣搞的那些都是經過公家單位的確認你確認你也知道細節我現在問你說那本的年限到底是畢業之後繳的還是後來大家發現都找不到之後補的"},{"start":7094.855,"end":7095.395,"text":"這問題很難回答嗎"},{"start":7125.175,"end":7125.595,"text":"接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":7165.214,"end":7174.346,"text":"謝謝主席我講慢一點讓這個部長喘口氣感謝主席有請教育部潘文忠部長"},{"start":7174.997,"end":7197.25,"text":"我們請潘部長各位好謝謝部長您好我想還是要非常肯定您八年來對於教育政策的推行所做的各種努力我想今天機會還是很難得也謝謝您還是來到這邊跟我們進行互動那我們今天的這個題目是大學國際招生跟優華語的計畫"},{"start":7200.372,"end":7206.776,"text":"優華語計畫其實從110年以後就開始推動但是本席辦公室請教育部提供優華語分年的執行成效"},{"start":7208.021,"end":7229.437,"text":"我們卻沒有辦法拿到我們只能拿到112年度的成果那我們從今天的書面報告當中也可以看到112年度的成果當中只提到了設置4所海外教學中心建立校際合作選送人員海外任教補助外國學生來臺學習華語等等"},{"start":7231.67,"end":7257.953,"text":"在這邊我必須要說完全沒有提到任何數位教學或是數位學習系統及平台的建制我們是真的活在2024年嗎我們現在是113年民國113年我們與各大學的這個華語推廣活動竟然還限於實體的交流我們好像回到這個明朝的時代鄭和下西洋不上船就沒有辦法跟人家交流"},{"start":7258.934,"end":7282.194,"text":"我們居然捨棄了全球42億的人口隨時可以上網學華語行動的上網用戶去年花了1.4億去設置這些實體的這些互動真的是優華語是不是要變成優華語這個優心的優想請教一下部長我們優華語計畫有沒有運用數位工具來推廣華語教學如果有可不可以稍微說明一下情況跟成效"},{"start":7283.755,"end":7310.337,"text":"那個優華語計畫是繼過去華語教育推動當中再次提啦那事實上它也有一定的基礎那麼在這個階段比較多的著力的比較深的是優華語計畫對不起部長我必須打斷你是比較多還是全部到底有沒有數位目前是提供數位課程有數位課程嗎有在報告裡面嗎我們好像都沒有看到喔那報告是不是有數位課程嗎"},{"start":7311.58,"end":7326.685,"text":"我想我們非常重視虛實的整合尤其在疫情之後我們現在這個世界衛生組織還說未來可能還有新的傳染病當然我們都不希望有它是代號叫X疾病"},{"start":7327.725,"end":7343.963,"text":"所以我們的各個境外學生的人數會隨著疫情的浮動但是我們現在已經進入數位的時代真的很難想像我們的全球推廣計畫沒有更多啦但你說有我就相信你說有雖然我們裡面沒看到 真的沒看到"},{"start":7345.044,"end":7362.955,"text":"說有就有啊,但是我們沒有更多人來使用,我們覺得這是需要檢討的希望部長回去以後跟同仁一起用這最後非常非常寶貴的時間重新檢視優華語的計畫內容做一些合適的資源配置那接下來我們不只華語,我們還要來請教您關於雙語教育的問題"},{"start":7365.511,"end":7381.75,"text":"107年12月當時準總統賴清德先生是任行政院長發表了《2030年為目標打造臺灣成為雙語國家的願景》要求全面啟動這樣的計畫想請教一下部長賴準總統所謂的雙語國家政策指的是哪雙語?"},{"start":7383.496,"end":7398.684,"text":"跟委員報告這個計畫的名稱後來應該說正確的再做一些調整不是用雙語國家是國家雙語政策所以這個新聞應該要下架要改是不是我不知道這個可能是新聞就是說目前是國家雙語政策因為這個確實有一個比較討論後所訂出來的沒有關係"},{"start":7406.889,"end":7411.434,"text":"我想我們的這個當時行政院長接下來要變總統希望我們所有的政策喊出來都是有憑有據不要改來改去我們來看這個實際上有很多這種打臉的現象我們就不多說啦其實所謂雙語指的是華語或英語這一種說法是完全與法無拒的"},{"start":7426.189,"end":7444.667,"text":"事實上我們完全沒有在法律中明定所謂的官方語言依據國家語言發展法我們的語言指的是臺灣固有族群使用的自然語言及臺灣手語而且要做很多的多語言之間的平衡做一個多元的平衡今天我們做這樣的一個說法"},{"start":7447.249,"end":7462.5,"text":"說要雙語啊、要英語啊、難保會不會未來又有新的院長一聲令下我們的雙語或多語的政策,又要換一個名字,又要360度的大轉彎。我們來看一下,自從我們先不管,就說好,那既然已經執行了,107年宣布執行,"},{"start":7465.842,"end":7473.789,"text":"到現在6年7年6、7年我們為了達成雙語國家目標已經投入多少錢我覺得這個真的是不只是指數成長這是十倍百倍的增長從幾千萬到幾十億我們來看一下我們已經投入了100億我們來看看現場的反應如何根據《親子天下》的雜誌全台有高達4成的公立國中小尚未實施雙語課程22個縣市當中有8成的縣市認為本國資質不足"},{"start":7496.046,"end":7521.295,"text":"31%的縣市認為中央經費補助不足22%的人說第一線教師反對這個政策當時賴清德院長的一句話讓教育部6年狠砸超過百億來推行雙語政策但是我們來看再看這個我們的全球英語能力指標只是略高於全球平均但是在111個國家及地區當中屬於中間偏後我們再看"},{"start":7522.609,"end":7536.937,"text":"這是你們的報告2030雙語政策計畫教育部推出的可量化的經濟效應我們那時候是擦亮眼睛說我是不是看錯了創造工作機會0帶動公民企業投資0"},{"start":7539.526,"end":7563.791,"text":"這還不是全部不只英語成績不見起色根據去年公布的應該說去年公布2021的臺灣參加第4屆的這個國際閱讀數量調查首度出現小四學生中文閱讀能力下滑的現象這個真的是我們要看到的嗎我們再來看金魚已經現在變成我們這種交作業的這個常見的狀況了再來還有"},{"start":7568.573,"end":7582.953,"text":"這個過去9年的國中會考每年都有近3000到7000名考生放棄寫國語的作文考0分的人數遠遠超過滿級分的人數我這樣講完還有啦但我們就不多說我們花了6年100多億"},{"start":7583.974,"end":7606.334,"text":"結果師資不足經費不足第一線教師反對學生不僅英文能力不好中文能力也下降最糟糕的經濟效益是零前兩天賴準總統甚至直指雙語政策負評如潮是執行出問題完全甩鍋教育部現在在這邊給您一個機會您認為雙語政策的失敗教育部要負最大的責任嗎這個說法是不是有點不太公平您可以回應一下"},{"start":7606.954,"end":7622.649,"text":"委員現在都還在持續進行的過程那剛才我要跟委員報告的是我要講到一個很關鍵的剛才委員引雜誌的報導裡面其實我對外也都說這樣說明教育部是穩健的在往前不是讓縣市動輒包含我們說六都"},{"start":7626.032,"end":7626.913,"text":"我幫你總結啦就是說才沒成功之前都說時間還不夠長"},{"start":7650.948,"end":7667.39,"text":"然後有人說有問題就是說指標不對啦如果是媒體報導就是說媒體的報導沒關係我問你下一題部長您要卸任排除政治壓力單純從您的良心從一個教育工作者的心態角度來看你認為政府的雙贏政策還要繼續推行嗎"},{"start":7668.351,"end":7670.773,"text":"委員要穩健推行不是照鏡啦我講的是這個一百億還不夠照還不還是穩健是吧從三千萬四千萬直接跳十億以上再來三四十億喔不是委員我一向務實推動教育工作你經費照鏡阿成果怎麼沒有照鏡呢"},{"start":7686.368,"end":7691.63,"text":"那經費也是後面因為有前瞻計畫能夠讓一些師資我講的是外籍的師資能夠補充這個部分並不是8年10年通通以這個經費好 謝謝謝謝部長我為什麼現在要跟您做這樣的互動是說這個交換的這個時期很重要如果您真的覺得哪裡做得不夠好哪裡需要檢討或雙語政策真的應該要調整"},{"start":7715.06,"end":7733.97,"text":"真的希望您可以來了解一下我們來看一下接下來我們給您看一個影片七年前的政策現在真的不一定要照樣推行請您重新考慮這今年3月18號我們在談校園霸凌的議題的時候部長您的回應我們來看第一段影片部長用流利的英語來回應"},{"start":7735.111,"end":7743.573,"text":"這完全是AI直接將您講的話用您的聲音翻成英文而且還對上了嘴形這個現在還需要幾秒鐘的時間運算接下來可以完全的即時運作大林如果從國際的來講他有他的定義但孩子感受到的"},{"start":7762.938,"end":7775.164,"text":"我想大家可能中文聽很多我們來看一次英文感覺一下我想連部長自己可能都會很難相信這個背景的音樂都還可以合成一句我們來看一下這還不是全部現在META剛發表的SIMLESS COMMUNICATION完全可以RULE TIME"},{"start":7785.729,"end":7786.289,"text":"我誠心的建議齁"},{"start":7802.981,"end":7818.437,"text":"未來在教導學生多種語言的時候不要再侷限於英語甚至應該要討論包含學習如何跟AI對話用AI來說出100國以上的語言同時我們也要呼籲繁中語料要全面開放為什麼"},{"start":7819.238,"end":7827.7,"text":"AI可以幫助我們的學生去講出一百國的語言我可以讓全球46億人口透過AI來學華語但是我們的華語的資料完全不足母湯聽不懂然後我們講什麼視頻、音頻這些用語可能也都不是台灣認定的華語希望未來可以有更多的資料全面開放給國會會、台德來使用我們才能夠讓AI有完整的繁體的中文化"},{"start":7845.703,"end":7860.728,"text":"用數位的工具讓華語在全球發揚光大最後謝謝主席給我時間AI能夠帶來幫助但是也有可能侵害學生的權益請教一下部長目前教育部對於高中生使用AI工具製作學習歷程檔案或者備審資料的態度和立場是什麼"},{"start":7865.709,"end":7883.639,"text":"現在大家可能有很多的升學升請的過程在進行老師在看資料學生有沒有責任在底下標註我有使用AI還是可以不用我們的老師是不是就要全盤盡信呢是完全禁止使用還是一定要進行揭露"},{"start":7884.139,"end":7895.912,"text":"有沒有什麼前提有沒有什麼條件您是不是現在趕快來提出說明一下是有條件的接受還是絕對不接受學生使用AI工具製作學習歷程檔案或備成資料我等一下說明一下"},{"start":7899.176,"end":7904.198,"text":"委員剛才講到以AI或數位科技學足語言的學習我非常贊同在上個禮拜我組織我們一個本國語言推動會那個裡頭各項足語課於中文的轉換因為現在也就是在請剛才委員所提到的幾個話部會"},{"start":7918.405,"end":7919.225,"text":"要不要揭露?很重要但可以不要揭露嗎?"},{"start":7943.294,"end":7967.16,"text":"要揭露是一件重要的事目前在大學我相信我們幾個大學柯昭偉在大學當時大家知道那個本來就是一個輔助的工具但是這個揭露本身來講對於老師要去評價要去做什麼我認為是有預計我看各大學目前朝這個方式這個問題很重要不然變成老師只是在評哪一個學生比較有錢可以用比較厲害的AI來做內容"},{"start":7967.64,"end":7967.66,"text":"謝謝 謝謝兩位"},{"start":7997.526,"end":7998.507,"text":"謝謝主席有請潘部長是部長"},{"start":8018.903,"end":8039.99,"text":"委員好部長這應該是520之前我們的最後一次見面是是謝謝委員好那不管怎麼樣其實還是要說一下關於那個TVBS民調其實蔡總統的執政滿意度還是高達42%那我想這個論文應該也是只有很少數人還想要再知道再追問的這個部分"},{"start":8041.61,"end":8068.789,"text":"好那今天其實我們針對所謂的這個優華語計畫的一個部分我想這個臺灣優華語的一個計畫主要還是以歐美紐澳這樣子的一個計畫為主那當初其實我們知道在中國他們在各個不同的國家設立很多的所謂的孔子學院但是也有很多的西方國家或者很多的國家也意識到這個孔子學院可能會有所謂的滲透的一些問題"},{"start":8069.649,"end":8070.45,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8099.329,"end":8099.669,"text":"新南向政策"},{"start":8129.749,"end":8143.173,"text":"委員報告在今天跟委員提出來的這些內容裡面其實我們國際招生的相關措施 包含一般性大學的招收國際生那不是招生對對 站上優華語計畫我說這幾個是相輔相成"},{"start":8147.734,"end":8173.211,"text":"因為當時華語教育在推動的過程後來我們做了一些改變希望能夠更深化所以才採取校對校就是U2U的這種模式所以這個確實在美國這方面因為跟大學原來的互動基礎比較多但是在華語教育的推動尤其新南向國家如果我有留意到我們在一些新南向國家這些相關的方案裡面採取兩個非常重要的"},{"start":8176.033,"end":8176.113,"text":"這是來到臺灣嗎?"},{"start":8203.553,"end":8218.345,"text":"但我講的是我們要去所謂的優華語的外到就是我們要派我們這邊的華語的老師是到所謂的亞洲的部分這邊是掛零嗎我們再補充不好意思可能報告沒有寫得那麼完整像現在新型專班我們會到這些當地國設相關的基地"},{"start":8225.05,"end":8234.673,"text":"名稱或許有不同像這個攬財的基地裡面有一項很重要的任務就是推廣華語教育那如果說這些學生有意要過來他也會在這個基地裡面先行做這些先修的華文所以未來在新南向國家應該會有十個基地會再設十個基地現在目前已經設了三個"},{"start":8251.297,"end":8251.697,"text":"合作的學校當然有這麼多"},{"start":8268.303,"end":8281.567,"text":"但是我發現有一個比較有趣的問題是包含在澳洲跟紐西蘭我們是有合作的學校但是卻沒有老師啊這個部分是因為我們每年還是編了大概1.41億的"},{"start":8284.088,"end":8285.75,"text":"國內21所對應合作的68所他們會去從校際彼此之間的需求去訂定"},{"start":8306.99,"end":8326.297,"text":"有些他就希望我們有華語教師到他當地的學校裡面來協助做華語教育目前委員所提到的澳大利跟紐西蘭這部分目前對方的學校是沒有跟我們合作的學校提出如果他們在發展過程有需要我們都會支援他合作不是只有單一這個項目"},{"start":8330.979,"end":8332.68,"text":"華語教育是一個很好的橋樑是我們華語的老師師資不足因為這部分只要對方的學校有需求"},{"start":8351.387,"end":8379.184,"text":"所以他們現在是沒有這方面的需求對這兩所學校就同仁跟我提到是說在合作裡面他們並沒有提出華語師資啦如果他們在推廣推動的過程有需要就會跟我們再提出來了解好那我想這個優華語的部分當然我們也看到就是這些報告可能還必須要再有一些更進進的一些這個還要持續滾動對對對就像剛剛所說的如果新南向的一些國家可能還會有10個不同的據點那如果有最新的報告再提供給我們這樣子好"},{"start":8381.285,"end":8388.313,"text":"接下來我想要請教一下部長的部分就是說現在我們其實有很多的私校開始慢慢的退場了這還是2023年的新聞台灣確定有"},{"start":8398.864,"end":8416.816,"text":"大學的部分是確定要停招13所的私校可能在今年可能就要熄燈了我想其實在這個部分在私校退場不是只有私立大學的部分另外還包含所謂的像是高中職的部分"},{"start":8417.716,"end":8436.985,"text":"職校即職學校也是一樣的一個道理當然一方面是因為少子化那二方面其實也是因為相對應的所謂的學校的經費的部分他沒有辦法用更好的一個經費去請到更好的師資那也有可能變成這樣雖然我們的基本的這個條幅學察費的部分條幅有0.61%"},{"start":8440.286,"end":8467.695,"text":"但就某一個私校的這個大學的校長說這0.61%好像吃了兩個漢堡都沒了所以其實這個部分因為有可能會讓很多的教育資源開始變成所謂的弱化我們講教育資源會變成所謂的M型化私校辦的好的私校或者是有口碑的一些私校還是一堆家長想要把孩子送進去私校但是我們相對來講又有一堆的私校其實就因為招不到學生也面臨要退場"},{"start":8468.715,"end":8469.636,"text":"蘇國庚文報告這幾年對私校確實讓學生的這部分為了減輕他們的學貸負擔"},{"start":8490.177,"end":8496.721,"text":"有推出拉近學費差距的補助這個是對學生包含就學貸款的延長等等的措施對學校的部分像最近這幾年因為政府也有不斷的調薪所以我也跟委員報告對私校我們也針對這部分有補助他7成因為這個都是學校實質人事費的一些負擔"},{"start":8514.531,"end":8514.631,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":8531.36,"end":8531.48,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8551.829,"end":8553.57,"text":"施教退場接著下來要接手的還有就是學生安置的一些問題都是非常大的問題可能也要再跟地方政府的教育局"},{"start":8572.619,"end":8572.719,"text":"主席"},{"start":8588.757,"end":8589.157,"text":"4月10日我針對了所謂的凱凱案"},{"start":8613.103,"end":8635.12,"text":"而福聯盟針對教育部是主管機關我做了一個臨時的提案那當時其實教育部也特別提到將在一個月之內就是向我們教育文化委員會來提出一個報告但是到目前為止今天已經是5月超過10號了但我今天都還沒有收到這個部分我們是不是也請教育部這個部分"},{"start":8636.121,"end":8637.742,"text":"委員當時提案的時候在會場我也跟委員報告了謝謝委員就是一個月這個過程一定會去啟動處理有關未來相關業務歸屬的今天下午我們就會開會"},{"start":8652.967,"end":8654.848,"text":"主管機關的教育部是針對財團法人法公告所謂的捐款人他們也依據所謂的財團法人法但是我們看到在110年的時候其實這是111年度跟110年度"},{"start":8674.735,"end":8674.775,"text":"全體委員會"},{"start":8694.202,"end":8715.641,"text":"只有一筆是公開捐募是2700多萬另外其他的運用全部都是民眾的捐款那時候其實我提問教育部好多次了包含他們在109年的時候買了所謂的內湖的這塊地這個不動產的部分那個時候其實教育部也多次回答我"},{"start":8716.061,"end":8719.182,"text":"那這個部分我不知道教育部要在這邊要做有沒有一個解釋啊"},{"start":8742.911,"end":8749.535,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前我們跟委員部去做專案的查核當時也邀請幾位會計師一起去進行這個因為這個收支到底合不合相關的會計規範那個相關的法規那我想這個有詳細的查核報告是不是我再請司理頭把那個查核的情形讓委員了解好不好"},{"start":8767.827,"end":8768.207,"text":"接下來我們請林一錦委員"},{"start":8797.325,"end":8797.605,"text":"臺灣的文攻武嚇"},{"start":8822.781,"end":8836.979,"text":"國際上戰狼的形象受到很多質疑所以他們的孔子學院名義上是在推廣語言跟文化可是他卻接連爆出說很多限制學術自由的這種"},{"start":8842.387,"end":8850.219,"text":"臺灣的華語教學,我覺得勢必要趁這個時候用我們最美麗的繁體字用我們的自由民主的文化來搶下華語的這個優勢那我想成為"},{"start":8855.166,"end":8883.707,"text":"外國人學習華語的首選這個時候正是時候所以我們要用最堅強的軟實力替台灣外交增益口氣所以這個時候華語的教學人員就變得相對的重要他成為我們搶到華語教學這個版圖很重要的角色那我們來談到華語教學人員的待遇其實非常的不一致我們先看國內的華語中心很多都是兼任的那三個月一聘"},{"start":8884.147,"end":8884.167,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":8908.001,"end":8936.924,"text":"收入真的很不穩定好 那我們再看外派到海外的這個華語教學人員的待遇好了因為教育部因為每個月有補助一千二到一千九的美元的生活補助再加上當地學校給的薪資所以差不多能符合他們的在當地的這個需求開銷好一點的還可以存到一點錢齁那可是不過補助的期間只有一年為限那一年為原則啦齁那當然有貨到"},{"start":8937.665,"end":8957.307,"text":"如果接到國外學校的續聘者當然可以續約我們也可以延長補助可是那也要獲得學校的續聘那如果說好的就是教學人員如果跟學校談條心的話那學校可能就會再請教育部再多聘這個華語教學人員來就好"},{"start":8958.248,"end":8958.408,"text":"上述我剛提的"},{"start":8979.735,"end":8980.075,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8996.327,"end":8998.108,"text":"臺灣若想要發展華語,我們對於華語的教學人員的保障就應該要特別的重視。"},{"start":9017.441,"end":9017.461,"text":"部長．"},{"start":9042.048,"end":9045.852,"text":"謝謝張偉對於華語教育、華語師資的議題的關注我也跟張偉報告確實華語教師尤其是派外到學校去做這方面的教學的資源當然挑戰也會比較大所以剛才張偉所提到的這個在有關"},{"start":9063.808,"end":9068.232,"text":"相關聘任還有這個規範我先看我也請國進司這邊可能要把幾個制度能夠再更把它完整化因為這才能夠穩定師資所以不管在包含我們自己在國內我們有幾所大學也都有設這個華語中心的這個就是國內外的這部分我想這個制度要把它包含那個薪資因為確實也必須要與時俱進"},{"start":9095.05,"end":9109.101,"text":"這方面應該做後續的處理就目前因為也比較希望更穩定的拓展我們在國外的這些剛才談到像優華語教育就是用學校對學校大學對大學這個其實在穩定上會更好讓學校這邊可以有一個比較穩定"},{"start":9116.647,"end":9116.787,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9139.608,"end":9142.81,"text":"臺灣推華語教育不會像中國的孔子學院因為那個太強烈的引發很多國家的這些反彈因為確實我們在這樣做的過程當中我想今天的書面報告也看得出來我們的學習華語的華語生其實人數是一直在增加"},{"start":9168.362,"end":9171.223,"text":"目前112學年度的統計已經到36000多這是來臺灣的表示說他們對臺灣在華語的學習上應該有相當的吸引力這個我們會持續來強化"},{"start":9183.787,"end":9197.319,"text":"希望未來真的成為所謂的外國人來學習華語的首選台灣是首選再來本席要跟您談談公費留學生的問題我們現在很積極在招攬國際留學生來台灣念書那台灣有人才的缺口部分我們也希望這些國際生念完書可以留下來來填補我們人力缺口那國際生的交流是雙向的所以我們的學生也會到國外去"},{"start":9211.03,"end":9211.05,"text":"部長．"},{"start":9227.269,"end":9250.789,"text":"跟委員報告,確實我們在名額上一直在增加那從報名就如委員所說的確實看起來不想過往這個我想政策上我們會持續來推那也跟趙委這邊報告因為現在很多學生他未必是用公費留學取得學位"},{"start":9251.309,"end":9263.82,"text":"他有蠻多是用比較交換學生因為現在很多學校也有這種交換學生他可以有一段時間仍然有到國外去接觸的但不是說像公費學生一綁就要多少年我覺得這個形式我覺得也應該是跟過往比較有不同的地方那另外我也跟趙偉報告我們其實也推一些叫專案"},{"start":9277.893,"end":9285.959,"text":"我發現他的效果是蠻好的像我們有一些叫做設計比如像設計人才的這種蹲點的計畫比如一個學生我們他申請合訂以後這個當然還蠻嚴格的他比如說他是以服裝時尚為主的真的他選擇的地點就是法國巴黎那去一年他發現這種回來因為我也好幾次都有機會聽他們分享其實他們得到的成長"},{"start":9305.453,"end":9305.713,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":9322.307,"end":9322.407,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9341.468,"end":9342.809,"text":"教育部從2017年就有推動新南向國家公費留學"},{"start":9361.007,"end":9380.979,"text":"這部分每年都開設10個名額可是報名人數也都是十幾二十人那2022年度甚至只有7個人報名那2023也只有11個人報名所以這兩年的錄取人數其實也只有5個人就是也不到足額那我想當然啦這個有學生反應是說"},{"start":9382.26,"end":9397.71,"text":"除了疫情的關係以外可能就是說教育部好像也沒有太積極在宣傳就是說這部分可能要更積極宣傳來吸引學生報名當然我想這個可能還有一些教養觀念的問題所以除了就是說後面認為說大家都希望往歐美或東亞"},{"start":9401.772,"end":9402.112,"text":"不曉得部長你怎麼看"},{"start":9422.981,"end":9428.623,"text":"這個確實從比較長時段來看,臺灣孩子當時在如果說留學或公費留學,確實歐美是他們比較感興趣的,應該可以看得出來。但是新南向這些國家,其實在這些年的我們跟他們的互動,我覺得真的其實是跟相較過往是有很大的開展。"},{"start":9447.931,"end":9448.291,"text":"新南向國家互動"},{"start":9466.966,"end":9473.873,"text":"新南向國家到臺灣來的學生尤其也越來越多是相當優秀的學生這個人數也在增加所以我想這個雙向互動我們要再加強宣導所以再花30秒就是說關心說之前有發現說新南向產學合作專班的學生來臺違法打工的這個事情那現在教育部在推新型專班很多都擔心說這個會不會有漏洞就是說"},{"start":9492.17,"end":9498.215,"text":"在發生所謂打黑工的事件那外國學生來臺就學辦法的規定招生事務就說除了宣傳推廣跟協助學生辦理來臺的相關的必要程序外不得為由校外的機構法人團體或個人來辦理可是真的就沒有發生過仲介透過各種名目把手伸進去這個招生事務嗎"},{"start":9513.847,"end":9532.319,"text":"教育部推動國際專修部讓外籍生可以先休息華語一年有確實打擊到仲介生態嗎?專科以上學校維護外國學生的授教權權益專案審查結果有多少比例不符合規定?這部分是哪些違規比較多?"},{"start":9534.08,"end":9537.124,"text":"提供詳細報告新南向產西國際專班確實招生初期我們有看到國內的學校真的在這個方面的準備跟心態我覺得是不足的"},{"start":9549.177,"end":9577.208,"text":"發現了幾個這個嚴重的我們講的真的叫做嚴重的現象教育部是採取非常嚴厲的處置也跟學校非常嚴格的要求後來我們修了幾個包含現在這些辦法都是以那個為基礎是很重要的讓學校知道絕對不得透過仲介人力那這個辦法除了宣誓以外其實是要我們發的學生入學通知適用一定要給當事學生"},{"start":9577.948,"end":9590.26,"text":"學生愛用他的語言比如來自越南的孩子來自印尼的孩子你給他的入學說明他的科系全力以赴是以這個方式所以這個像過去學校見不到更不知道他招的是什麼學生學生也不知道他要到臺灣的什麼學校讀什麼科系這個確實改變"},{"start":9596.365,"end":9597.445,"text":"接下來我們請吳佩奕委員吳佩奕委員舉行完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘"},{"start":9630.095,"end":9632.816,"text":"謝謝主席,我請潘文忠部長潘部長委員好部長好剛剛我坐在台下聽前面的委員質詢其中葉元之委員質詢他來詢問教育部說蔡英文總統當年在政大副教授升等的論文為什麼要加密為什麼不能看為什麼不見"},{"start":9657.043,"end":9664.309,"text":"我認為這個很可能涉及到立法委員在立法院裡面公然的造謠所以我認為事實的釐清相當的重要我想請問蔡英文總統當年在政大副教授升等的這個論文有加密嗎?"},{"start":9673.624,"end":9676.947,"text":"這個當年的論文是叫做期刊論文對吧?發表在哪裡?發表在政大的法學評論這個問題我覺得非常的可笑因為任何對學術有一點基本常識的人都知道"},{"start":9693.863,"end":9717.214,"text":"論文這個叫做發表這是公開出版已經出版的文件和來加密就出版了嘛再來這兩篇論文一篇是國際貿易中國內市場之保護另外一篇是國際貿易法術原則在經濟結構轉型及蕭條及之運用及演變這個論文出版的年份是民國72年"},{"start":9722.429,"end":9743.906,"text":"當時這個出版的論文現在我們在什麼地方可以看到點藏在哪裡跟委員報告政大本身學校一定圖書館一定保存我們的國圖也都會保存所有相關的出版品而且這一些你只要去越南都可以看到論文的在我們的國家圖書館還有保存"},{"start":9748.75,"end":9750.731,"text":"請問教育部有沒有對外的公開澄清過?"},{"start":9763.38,"end":9766.764,"text":"教育部在2019年就是5年前其實網頁上就公開的發布過澄清的資訊了所以呢我想那這其實就是我們公務部門我們其實就是還是富有跟社會隨時"},{"start":9778.257,"end":9778.317,"text":"立法委員．"},{"start":9800.365,"end":9800.525,"text":"請繼續努力"},{"start":9820.426,"end":9842.82,"text":"今天的報告裡面很重要的一部分是我們的臺美教育倡議因為我想這是從很早的美國在開始國內美國的議員們提出的決議案跨黨派的議員希望政府要來去重視在美國過去中國政府在美國推動的孔子學院"},{"start":9844.501,"end":9851.964,"text":"初中一開始也是要推動華語教育但是有很多的學校陸續舉報認為孔子學院有侵害學術自由這樣的行為例如說有學校受到壓力必須要去取消巴賴喇嘛的演講"},{"start":9861.508,"end":9865.691,"text":"有些學校邀請來自臺灣的演講者演說必須公開的資訊要移除掉的演講者是來自於臺灣的背景所以美國國內包括他們的這個國會也開始在討論說如果我們要推廣華語教育也可以來跟臺灣進行合作所以我們從2020年開始有臺美教育的倡議也簽署了很多的備忘錄今年"},{"start":9886.887,"end":9898.476,"text":"從美國的學生來到臺灣竟協助這個華語的人數也破了3000人是創下史上的新高我們目前簽的這些備忘錄目前推行的成效如何?"},{"start":9899.292,"end":9902.834,"text":"謝謝委員因為臺美倡議從2020起動後其實是真的非常密集的臺灣跨部會跟美國的延續臺美倡議後光這樣的會議就召開過14次每一次都有很具體的"},{"start":9918.484,"end":9921.185,"text":"委員提到美國在112年的華語學生已經是創立年的新高已經到了3000位以上那這當中還有跟委員報告是很多推的方式是已經深化到"},{"start":9943.67,"end":9945.971,"text":"以華語教育推廣來看 確實相較過往是有很大的突破"},{"start":9970.816,"end":9993.195,"text":"是 我覺得這計畫重要性除了在於外交意涵除了在於我們到美國去推廣華語也在於例如說美方透過了Fort Bright的計畫他們也有英語的教學人員來到臺灣協助我們進行英語的教育也跟我們的中小學來進行合作所以說美國有一個ETL美籍英語協同教學助理計畫每年都有人員來臺灣協助教學目前美國"},{"start":9997.739,"end":10008.425,"text":"台灣是不是美國投入最高程度的國家之一呢?是 目前確實如此剛才委員提到華語這是一個重點那台灣這段時間所推動國家雙語政策當中其實相當多的外師包含教學助理就是剛才委員提到的這部分其實也是透過這樣的平台他們來做這方面的"},{"start":10023.833,"end":10026.696,"text":"在AIT的臺美教育倡議事實清單裡面去年透過ETA計畫來臺灣的有152名的美國學生但是從臺灣我們透過優華語計畫送到美國去從事華語教學的我看一下人數"},{"start":10051.977,"end":10062.423,"text":"我們的教師是39名那我們的教學助理是5名也有一些是透過其他計畫選送去美國但是這個數字比起來因為這其實是互惠計畫嘛我們也要選送人到美國去推行華語教育我認為我們這個人數還可以再努力的來增加我們在這個選訓我們的華語師資的時候遇到什麼樣的困難嗎是補助的問題還是說意願其實不高有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":10079.713,"end":10100.139,"text":"跟委員報告確實在目前這樣的擴展如果以跟美國合作為例跟以往的這個需求啦我講需求就是因為大家很願意往這個方向走那對於華語師資的幫剛才林錦昭委也特別提到一些待遇跟相關聘任等等的做法"},{"start":10100.519,"end":10105.542,"text":"我覺得教育部是應該有再做一個檢視因為等於說現在機構在美國這邊所設置的或其他國家所設置的更穩定那這種情況之下未來在需求上可以看得出來會越來越擴增但是對於人員這方面的一些生活協助或我們說對於一些精緻待遇等等的"},{"start":10127.176,"end":10140.345,"text":"台灣是做協助的這部分當地學校會給這位老師薪資我想在協助的這部分我覺得是國家可以再多更大的力道是 我認為華語教學會是我們台灣未來我們非常強的優勢隨著台灣的外交的關係世界上很多國家都開始重視台灣也有學習華語的需求所以我們這幾年的優華語計畫我覺得我們應該進行一個盤正"},{"start":10155.034,"end":10159.857,"text":"因為有外交部有教育部也有僑委會嘛對不對優華語計畫事實上我們不只是要跟美國合作我們是美歐紐澳我們都有相關的計畫在推行但是我看一下我們目前的成果以校際合作來說總共合作的美歐紐澳是68所學校對不對但是你裡面你有八成56所都是在美國"},{"start":10178.971,"end":10188.039,"text":"其他的英國6所法國1所捷克波蘭紐澳各1所但因為我也是立法院歐洲議會友好促進會的會長其實歐洲的國家尤其是歐洲議會今年訪團來好幾團他們都告訴我們說歐洲在近5年對於臺灣的重視是提升了非常之多"},{"start":10199.648,"end":10210.656,"text":"包括了歐洲的國會議員都時常在他們自己國會裡面去提出要促進跟臺灣不管是經濟教育相關交流的議案所以我認為我們要去加強相關的推動目前為止你這個計畫優華語計畫一年的預算1.41億"},{"start":10219.295,"end":10224.52,"text":"跟歐洲國家的交流合作我剛講這個校際合作是不到兩成我覺得這個數字絕對要再來提升加強那包括了我們選送華語教學人員到海外任教你的教師45名裡面八成以上也都是到美國任教你這個其他英國有三位法國一位波蘭捷克各一位"},{"start":10238.993,"end":10242.515,"text":"這個數字我覺得都要來努力提升謝謝委員 這個優華語計畫在整個盤整之後再走其實目前是走的穩定 看起來也深入但是委員提到的 在擴展這面向上是應該用這樣的基礎在擴大"},{"start":10255.16,"end":10280.951,"text":"剛才委員提到我們在美國這邊人數有突破3000那其實整體來自全球到臺灣學華語的總人數已經到了36000最新的統計顯然在這方面我們是有被各地各國所喜歡所以在這方面謝謝委員剛才的指教我想在優華語計畫的基礎上我們可能還會再拓展其他的這些包含"},{"start":10281.811,"end":10294.117,"text":"東歐其實也是一個非常重要的開發的據點我們過去歐洲大概比較多的是跟英國這方面的合作居多如果說在這方面我想會在這個基礎上再來擴展"},{"start":10295.313,"end":10316.745,"text":"是那最後呢部長你是中華民國史上任期最長的部長小英總統任期8年你就擔任部長7年多的時間但更重要的是任內推動了幾項我認為是很重要的基礎教育的修法我們有偏鄉教育條例實驗三法特教法性便教育平等法等重要法案更加重要的也是我們108年課綱的推動你可能是第一個"},{"start":10321.388,"end":10326.411,"text":"透過公開的直播直接跟學生進行對談來討論課綱的部長那你認為108課綱在推動的過程當中最困難的一點是什麼?剛剛委員報告因為108課綱是一個很龐雜的那也是把過去我們比較片段就是說國中小是一個課綱技術高中是一個課綱高中是一個課綱那橫向之間"},{"start":10348.326,"end":10374.538,"text":"也比較沒有辦法領域之間那這部課綱是把縱向跟橫向做一個縱整但這樣的過程確實在包含研發跟審議尤其我們邀請要讓它更透明透明的意思是這些審議的過程是完全公開那包含也有學生代表來參與那學生也從他們學習者的角度來看過程確實有很多很多的意見那縱整這樣的意見最後把它確定花了兩年九個月"},{"start":10378.219,"end":10402.567,"text":"因為當時這個議題我認為是重要而且也考慮到未來推行要配套所以我也幾乎親自主持每一場的審議的會議主要的目的也是希望在課綱發展完成之後的推行那才是挑戰之所在所以我也花很多時間跟學生聽他們在這一方面的一些心得在做一些滾動的修正我想下一步的課綱也應該以這樣的基礎一定會讓台灣在課程發展上更好"},{"start":10405.788,"end":10406.288,"text":"我們先休息五分鐘好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":10448.747,"end":10460.591,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10480.895,"end":10487.977,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10504.944,"end":10523.062,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10535.418,"end":10535.718,"text":"委員會主席響鐘"},{"start":10564.292,"end":10573.115,"text":"臺灣文化委員會主席"},{"start":10739.228,"end":10739.448,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":10757.934,"end":10786.258,"text":"委員好部長好那剛剛在前面的質詢有聽到說一個訊息就是部長說他昨天召開的一個本土語言的會議有提到說上個禮拜上個禮拜就是有這個裡面有提到說未來可能也會結合這個AI的運用在語言的學習那這個部分其實聽起來我在那個我聽到的時候覺得非常的振奮那也期待說接下來如果相關的執行計畫的話也可以提供到我們辦公室對那再來就是說因為剛剛也有委員提到就是有關於雙語國家的一個政策"},{"start":10786.878,"end":10811.698,"text":"這部分雖然說我覺得可以跟AI來做一起學習的這個AI雖然未來可以幫助大家做這些語言的學習但是我覺得這個雙語國家這個政策還是要持續的推動下去因為我覺得像我自己過去在外鄉工作這麼多年其實在社交場合怎麼去理解他們的文化跟他們做很多的所謂的small talk這件事情還是需要透過學習來做一個辦法做到這件事情所以"},{"start":10812.97,"end":10833.229,"text":"我想可能是未來我們在做一些雙語的政策上面可能是要加強其他的部分的面向學習配合了AI的運用所以這點我還是相當肯定那接下來就是說回到我們今天的主題就是說我們現在在去年有一個促進國際生來臺即留臺的實施計畫那目前就是說透過進行專班來給予獎學金來希望強化他們"},{"start":10837.113,"end":10841.176,"text":"主要與歐美國家做學術交流,產學教育合作聯盟以新南向國家為主,開設新型專班及"},{"start":10858.027,"end":10863.972,"text":"推動師生交換那我自己在索資的時候我發現就是說我們在新型專班裡面現在是教育部合訂了35個學校班數123班人數是2301人但是去年實際上招收人數是1200人"},{"start":10874.499,"end":10891.187,"text":"人數的部分可能涉及經費補助機票行政費學費等等等有預算的問題那我想知道說新型專班第一個還在招生中嗎招生的情況如何如果今天超過1200人那超過的經費要如何來指引"},{"start":10892.897,"end":10909.049,"text":"謝謝委員 這個確實在我們整個針對國際招生這部分那兩大聯盟的意義跟過往其實是一個很大的突破以往大學都是各自到各別自己想要去招生的地方有點比較單打"},{"start":10911.03,"end":10911.25,"text":"新興國際專班197企業"},{"start":10931.089,"end":10931.129,"text":"主席"},{"start":10952.802,"end":10968.753,"text":"還有企業的贊助的這部分本來就有這樣的一個彈性空間因為當時我們在做計畫所以我們經費沒有問題嘛對不對那我們現在最新的人數是多少呢那個最新的人數還沒到最後的核定還在持續還在持續是不是大概什麼時候會停因為目前還是會分班如果說8月應該會告個段落"},{"start":10975.077,"end":10976.118,"text":"我們在境外生的部分在107年達到最高分有來到了將近13萬人"},{"start":10996.138,"end":11019.289,"text":"但是呢這個人數上可能中間涉及到了一個疫情啦或是終生不來所以人數持續的減緩到這兩年才又重新回升到回升但是呢我自己有發現到就是說我們的學衛生人數沒有明顯的減少但是境外並沒有明顯的減少反而是逐年微幅的成長變動較大反而是非學衛生也就是短期交流"},{"start":11020.825,"end":11041.6,"text":"我想知道說因為我知道我們在那個2030年其實有個計畫是希望可以突破累積招募的是32萬人可是我們現在大概只有1萬人這個目標似乎以這樣子的成長幅度來說每年大概只有1萬人要到2030年累積到32萬人這個目標是不是現在有點挑戰呢"},{"start":11042.28,"end":11062.182,"text":"我跟委員報告 確實在 剛才委員這個數字看得非常清楚 這當中有三年的疫情我們的學位生還是持續增加 學位生那研修生因為當時都是疫情 國際之間都會管制了所以才 當時我們非學位生大概 本來一般大概也占一半"},{"start":11062.722,"end":11062.882,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":11078.922,"end":11080.824,"text":"因為這裡面結構上還有一個很大的改變原來當然臺灣我們本來就持開放的態度來歡迎那入生的這部分這幾年學位生就幾乎已經歸零了研修生本來大概他們到3萬2那現在112學年度也只剩2600多"},{"start":11100.685,"end":11107.648,"text":"這個概念也表示說因為兩岸的這些限制這個數字這個結構改變之後112學年度國外進外生的大一新生是將近兩萬人這個數字是很不一樣也就是說目前的幾個招生政策加上華語推動的政策我們看起來大一表示是新生嘛進來的速度是幅度是增加的"},{"start":11129.097,"end":11154.154,"text":"沒關係 因為那個部長 因為其實我最主要想要問的是這個就是說因為我們畢竟還是要去招募足夠的學生啦但是我自己有點擔心就是我們現在集中在這個越南印尼跟馬來西亞就將近佔了四成多那我會擔心的是說我們把雞蛋放在同一顆籃子裡面似乎有點風險那我們對於就像泰國跟菲律賓它的非學衛生都遠多於學衛生"},{"start":11154.814,"end":11181.884,"text":"在這一點上面我們有沒有一些更積極的做法來去讓其他的國家新南向的國家可以來我們臺灣學習是 各位報告我們那個兩個聯盟總共會設10個攬財的基地尤其是這個產學國際聯盟這部分主要目標也會以新南向國家為主所以這10個基地目前設了3個"},{"start":11183.004,"end":11183.204,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11200.319,"end":11224.521,"text":"好 那我們來瞭解一下那再來就是說下一個部分就是優華語計畫那因為就是說我們在11年開始推動這個計畫到現在呢已經有63個學校那美國占了最多數那我們在紐澳相對來說是比較少那我認為這是一個很好的國際交流讓世界看見臺灣那我也看見就是說這幾年也有去年也有新聞就是講哈佛來臺灣辦這個臺北書院"},{"start":11227.023,"end":11229.385,"text":"這部分是目前有一些詳細的計畫或宣傳的活動嗎?"},{"start":11250.6,"end":11254.103,"text":"跟委員報告優華語計畫是我們盤整過去執行以比較更深化從大學對大學的模式來進行那當然因為臺美倡議確實在這上面有很大的推進因為美國政府的力量暴墜政府所以可以看得出來68校當中美國佔了八成那但是我們不以此為限目前還會持續的擴展"},{"start":11277.941,"end":11281.564,"text":"因為我也關心這個新南向國家的部分也許我們不是用那個教學中心模式事實上在基地裡面在做的也是當中有一個重要任務也是華語教育的推廣所以我想未來我們還是會全面的來展開包含優華語計畫的這個做法"},{"start":11299.241,"end":11299.401,"text":"主要是說兩個問題"},{"start":11321.861,"end":11349.786,"text":"第一個就是體操協會我們在4月的時候舉辦一個亞洲體操青年錦標賽但是我們的代表隊卻有兩個人因為年齡不足雖然上場但不算成績這件事情也不是發生第一次在之前排球協會也有同樣的狀況體操協會其實說今年2月因為過去的一個團體運作不佳所以已經全部換了團隊新的團隊3月上任可是"},{"start":11350.406,"end":11359.093,"text":"這整個中間應該有交接是有一個月的時間上任其實是有一個月的時間但卻沒有注意到這件事情我們現在要如何避免類似發生這樣子的情況"},{"start":11360.758,"end":11388.648,"text":"報告委員我想這個大概是我們在協會裡面的國際組的人才這部分我們大概接下來有一些方案可能要協助協會在國際事務這一塊能夠再強化那這一塊主要是他們在去年國際總會那邊發布青少年的年齡層做了修改變成14到15歲但是上一任的協會他們在參加這個物質別科的賽事的時候一般主辦國會把年齡放在競賽規程可是這一次這個國家沒有放進去他們認為說"},{"start":11389.648,"end":11406.683,"text":"昨年總會已經對全世界公告了所以就不需要放進去因為這樣造成一些困擾那這個錯誤在上一任其實他們協會運作其實非常的不理想所以我們才會在今年的2月要求他們限期改善或撤款對但是我想因為這個東西也不是第一個協會發生掉這個狀況所以我想在國際事務人才這部分我們會強調"},{"start":11407.684,"end":11422.61,"text":"這部分要持續的強化不然其實坦白說對選手來說其實是很傷那再來還有最後一個也是跟這個有連續性的就是說我們去上個禮拜有一個叫做上上禮拜安聯小小世界被花蓮預賽的時候發生一個暴力事件是"},{"start":11423.59,"end":11423.63,"text":"這件事﹖"},{"start":11446.511,"end":11464.194,"text":"他鬆上去打球員這件事情我覺得這是非常不合理的第二個是因為這種體罰事件在前陣子也有一個北市羽球國小的教練也是持續有這樣子的狀況那我想知道說就是在我們現在這個體育署是有叫做這個教練陣的訓練課程有納入而上訓練可是只有一個小時"},{"start":11465.155,"end":11482.864,"text":"這個小時的時數是不是太少了因為他根本沒有辦法讓教練了解我如何對一個小球員去做一些訓練而且了解說他的身心靈的一些知能而且要讓他知道說你今天做了哪些事情其實是觸犯了相對的一些法律絕對不可以執行的我們現在這個課程是不是還可以做一些重新的盤點跟規劃呢"},{"start":11485.125,"end":11508.117,"text":"報告委員這個分為兩個部分第一個部分雖然這個賽事不是體育署跟足球協會的賽事但是我們一樣通報足球協會必須送紀律委員會出於競賽第二個方面的面程是我們在兒少的課程目前取證的部分的確是只有限制一個小時那是也因為協會他們後來抱怨說在短短的時間之內又要上通識課程又要上專業課程有它的困難度所以這部分我們在"},{"start":11508.897,"end":11509.277,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":11538.359,"end":11538.799,"text":"吳村城委員"},{"start":11552.472,"end":11569.877,"text":"部長好部長好這個我到立法院來第一次的質詢就是獻給你今天可能是最後一次在教育委員會希望你跟上一層樓剛才有提到這個"},{"start":11571.678,"end":11593.4,"text":"看到部長這幾年來歷經滄桑所以我要想問一下部長有沒有發表一下臨北感言你覺得你最大的遺憾是什麼只能講一點不能變成你的你覺得真的要講最重要的一個關鍵字"},{"start":11595.162,"end":11595.442,"text":"最大的遺憾"},{"start":11621.536,"end":11624.477,"text":"整個教育部很多僵化的體制那些體制是從哪裡來的那就是捆捆綁綁"},{"start":11644.448,"end":11654.224,"text":"非常多的綑綁但是這些可能也是受政治的影響有一個政治的風向往哪邊吹那邊就會打開一扇門往那邊就會關上一扇門"},{"start":11658.934,"end":11679.841,"text":"整個的教育部可能就在這一個當中遇到很多的困難就像這一個我會談的今天叫做一國兩制看到這表也蠻奇怪的就是今天的我們的主題就是在國際招生的這一部分我們可以看到這一個"},{"start":11681.441,"end":11703.306,"text":"平均大概都有10萬名以上這幾年這10年來不斷的在推展但後面這3年可能受疫情的影響還有兩岸陸生的問題但是同時我們也看到我們近10年來的留學生赴海外的留學生也不斷的在成長"},{"start":11704.69,"end":11726.5,"text":"不斷地成長讓我們了解一邊因為我們少子化大學對不對我們不斷地吸引外來的但是我們又不斷地把我們自己的學生往外推那可以看得出來我就今天在談的一個就是我們在思維上面這個是什麼策略部長"},{"start":11728.17,"end":11750.821,"text":"我跟委員報告這個當然時代環境有很大的變化對於學生培養國際移動的這種能力我想各國皆然大概像早期我們大部分的學生都在國內然後比較少數的像公費留學等等的我也覺得這個在教育部的政策上也一直比較希望"},{"start":11751.421,"end":11751.621,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11781.051,"end":11803.746,"text":"臺灣現在的教育非常進步以前是因為臺灣跟國際的落差很大所以臺灣現在教育非常好那應該有很多的吸引力我們可以在臺灣自己本身就可以培養出國際頂端的人才來了像新加坡小小一個地方就亞洲前一二名的大學"},{"start":11805.748,"end":11819.125,"text":"他們當然也會出國不過全世界都自然會吸引過來辦好我們國內的教育這可能還是第一要務了但是另外一個談的我剛才談的就是我們這裡有開一扇門"},{"start":11821.188,"end":11838.263,"text":"對國內有對國外我們是大開門戶啦所以十幾萬人可以進來但是我們對國內的很多教育體制是非常的嚴格把關困難重重那好不容易開了一扇門實驗三法推動了實驗教育從這張"},{"start":11840.385,"end":11862.392,"text":"圖表可以看得出來粉紅色就是這種實驗的每年不斷地在成長可以看得出需求很多我們希望這個更多自主更多開放的甚至有一點類似國外的這種實驗跟國內體制不太一樣的這個的需求非常的大"},{"start":11864.417,"end":11892.988,"text":"但部長有看到這個問題嗎?是,這部分我跟委員報告,這些年因為從教育基本法後,即使臺灣的教育也不斷地在讓家長有更多教育選擇權,但是這裡我要提的一個就是說,但是這裡只有到高中,大學高等教育就沒有了,高等教育沒有以後,現在這裡有4萬多人,4萬在就學的這種非正式教育,實驗教育當中,他到這裡,"},{"start":11894.269,"end":11902.87,"text":"幾乎只有一條路非出國不行因為跟我們的教育體制沒有銜接因為我們沒有實驗型的大學"},{"start":11903.982,"end":11907.145,"text":"這一點我跟委員報告當然要到完全一個機構現在教育部也核定了一所高校的實驗的這個部分是以人文藝術為主也會展開但是現在"},{"start":11929.326,"end":11957.493,"text":"對現在我跟委員報告的是現在大學的入學當中有一個特殊選材的這樣的機制這個機制他也不是會去參考一定要參加入學的學測測驗等等的而這個機制目前也有比較多的學校已經展開這個概念因為委員我現在有看到部長我現在看到有五所大學提出申請只有一所大學現在不只啦委員特殊選材的大學不只五所不只"},{"start":11957.833,"end":11964.715,"text":"但是目前只有一所那所是實驗型的大學對實驗型我現在講的是實驗型大學因為現在國小國中到高中後面他們因為關鍵一個他們是不是沒有其他的路徑那剛才報告那個特殊選材的做法其實將近有40校"},{"start":11979.18,"end":11990.391,"text":"現在有幾所學校啊 像清華啦 交大啦 逢甲但是呢 這一個喔 生多 周少嘛 就是錄取名額只有30名聽說報名都到達500人 錄取率只有6%我應該這樣說啦 因為臺灣的大學就不像高中以下 那大學本來就是比較多樣"},{"start":12000.099,"end":12014.703,"text":"多樣態等於說多科系那學生在入學上為什麼會有這個特殊選材就是認為他們高中以下也許不是用學科考試等等的方式但是有特殊選材這一條管道我覺得這裡我們既然對國外可以有這麼開放的顯然這個教育體制的配合是沒有問題的我們的執行都沒有問題的只是我們的思維當中對於國內"},{"start":12029.048,"end":12048.524,"text":"就嚴審把關考慮了很多所以都困難重重那這個實驗大學這個要銜接因為我們現在這個到高中以下有4萬名了這麼多的需求讓他不能選擇出國這個是一個很大的問題另外一個也就是我一直在提的"},{"start":12049.244,"end":12066.837,"text":"跟部長來提的第三人生的另外一個就是我們對於高齡社會提到的要第三人生大學可以看得出這一方面我們的高教師都沒有一直覺得大學就是給18歲的人來念的60歲以後的人"},{"start":12069.139,"end":12089.302,"text":"目前這方面的思維部長算是第一個先驅但是要把這樣的思想啟蒙下去你看這一個前幾天的新聞我們中醫藥師的師長去考北藝大圓他的夢然後他還必須要循正規的"},{"start":12090.882,"end":12094.064,"text":"那為什麼要這麼的辛苦我們的教育為什麼要擋住 擋這個門"},{"start":12109.255,"end":12137.713,"text":"那OK當然這個所以我再提到了既然我們有一扇門就是教育有實驗教育的這樣的體制他可以排除了各種教育的法規幾乎都可以排除只看你要不要做而已那所以呢我也認為不要用這種教育法規因為再循那條路線去想我相信一定想不出來的啦是不是可以用這樣的方式來解開第三人生大學的一個"},{"start":12138.533,"end":12139.253,"text":"法規的限制"},{"start":12166.698,"end":12167.558,"text":"因為現在有個小組在進行"},{"start":12185.643,"end":12186.083,"text":"謝謝兩位 接下來我們請范雲委員"},{"start":12217.165,"end":12217.806,"text":"有請教育部長"},{"start":12225.82,"end":12246.519,"text":"委員好部長午安今天真的是您擔任教育部長應該就是最後一次來備詢了我想您真的是我們從基層出身擔任過教師而且擔任過地方的教育局長然後到教育部長又是教育學的博士我想您在理論實務上真的是我們少見常任的部長所以想跟您對話"},{"start":12251.283,"end":12279.201,"text":"教育的一些議題那當然也非常謝謝您這7年來之事每一天都非常的認真工作那我想問您的第一個問題就是剛剛您其實有講過心得對不對也有講到您比較就是覺得做得很好比如108課綱這個改革那我想換個方式問您就是您任內你覺得最重要的相關的法案的成就那您覺得您最"},{"start":12280.121,"end":12305.793,"text":"嬌傲的是哪三個法案不管是修法或者是執行根本報告因為教育部涉及的法案真的多了對您最有感的如果覺得這個在我提出來新設的法案跟修訂的法案那第一個我想偏遠學校發展條例因為那是長期教育非常根本當然現在還需要再不斷的滾動做修正"},{"start":12306.593,"end":12324.807,"text":"那另外一個當然很難但是我覺得對臺灣未來長期發展是必要的是私校退場條例因為那個議題假如如果沒有往下進行我們現在所看到的可能私生的權益等等這些大概在處理上會是更難"},{"start":12327.549,"end":12349.728,"text":"第三個當然我自己長期在國教階段上個會期因為我也有參與國教法跟特教法雖然超出一個啦我要這樣講國教法跟特教法這兩個法是一個非常重要的根本大法那個所涉及到的都是數十年教育現場所需要建立一個制度來做依循"},{"start":12350.248,"end":12350.308,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12371.071,"end":12375.732,"text":"在我們委員會的大力支持下所以我也用最快的速度在上個禮拜把所涉及到的60幾個執法也都完成這個過程還是有好多的溝通這個當然我覺得如果以我自己從事教育這麼長時間尤其在國教領域我覺得有幾項非常重要但不容易的法規也都在大院"},{"start":12397.276,"end":12402.279,"text":"這是我認為雖然辛苦了但是是必要也值得所以潘部長剛其實講了四個法就偏鄉的大學的私校退場條例然後國教法跟特教法都是非常大規模的一個修訂跟改革其實我個人看到的跟你有點不一樣但有點相關第一個我看到您在代理教師權益的保障上的努力"},{"start":12423.832,"end":12439.438,"text":"解決了十多年的問題而且我們在修法上確保這些成果不會隨著不同的人做而改變這是我看到的第一個第二個我覺得性別平等教育法雖然不是您任內出現的但是您立場堅定遇到困難尤其是勇於溝通譬如說你們的教育部的粉專那個小編"},{"start":12449.361,"end":12472.171,"text":"就真的讓大家非常的激賞不會遇到反對的聲浪那反而是積極主動溝通我覺得是政務官表率在這部分最近母親節的我都有看到從西程器是不是好的給媽媽的禮物做性平教育我覺得非常的用心所以性平教育就是這個部分您做得非常好而且主動溝通的部分我非常的肯定"},{"start":12472.771,"end":12482.053,"text":"國際招生及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第"},{"start":12502.558,"end":12528.378,"text":"再來哪三步是最該修訂的法如果要您來選的話您會選哪三步我跟委員報告如果就後續當然有再持續進行學生輔導法學夫法雖然大家現在還有一些期限但是我認為那個是維持支持學生在心理健康學校在做輔導上面"},{"start":12529.699,"end":12529.839,"text":"午餐條例"},{"start":12545.647,"end":12549.408,"text":"目前行政院正在做這個審議因為這個學校午餐條例我也是跟大院我們委員這邊的報告我說那個過程雖然還有很多不同的意見但前面因為做了很多必要的行政的措施包含偏嚴學校午餐廚房還有我們所政治的這些相關那個條件已經比較記足那最後一個我也知道委員關心"},{"start":12571.476,"end":12571.836,"text":"大學法"},{"start":12588.121,"end":12588.441,"text":"大學自主、大學自校"},{"start":12607.391,"end":12626.247,"text":"謝謝部長沒有跟您對過但是我們認為這三個最該修的法很高興我們看法一致那我想我認為的就是說第一個就是您剛講的大學法因為高教治理真的是需要要不然教育部沒有辦法去規範大學因為大學自主第一個是該修的是大學法那第二個學夫法"},{"start":12627.688,"end":12628.128,"text":"二千三百多少天?"},{"start":12657.637,"end":12674.904,"text":"兩千六百四十五天是算到520前還是算到今天算到519那您這個七年多的任期那我擔任的立委四年半算是超過一半的時間有看到您的認真努力那也要跟您講就過去其實我並不太溫暖"},{"start":12677.665,"end":12705.904,"text":"那但是就是在今天這個質詢前我的助理主動說要應該要送一張卡片給您我就欣然接受所以我們辦公室寫了一張卡片要送給潘老師聽說你最喜歡這個稱呼比部長還要好那真的非常的感謝這個教育路上有您真好您真的都非常的認真努力回應然後對相關的政策非常的謹慎而且也非常的熟悉那我就把我的最後時間"},{"start":12706.544,"end":12706.564,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":12731.806,"end":12746.676,"text":"好 非常謝謝范老師送給潘老師那柯老師接下來宣布好 那下一個質詢的人是鄭天才委員鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員好 麥玉珍委員質詢時間4分鐘 謝謝謝謝主席 有請教育部部長好 潘部長 謝謝"},{"start":12764.004,"end":12764.392,"text":"麥委員好"},{"start":12765.526,"end":12793.731,"text":"部長好,要請教你一下因為為了深化南線政策的交流在教育部106年開始推動南線政策的計畫開始產學合作的國際專班並提供長學金鼓勵優秀的青年來臺研習所以當我們在106年到112年的學年"},{"start":12794.491,"end":12822.498,"text":"共栽培兩萬多的國際青年但五屆畢業生總共就是有4963位等於說平均一年招收了2900位的學生但每年畢業平均只有990位左右招收學生跟畢業生比例不正比例所以畢業偏低的原因是什麼"},{"start":12823.038,"end":12846.29,"text":"未來如何提高這樣子的畢業生還有就是他們如何順利就業是 謝謝委員那跟委員報告因為新南向產西國際專班的這部分因為他的協志有好幾個不同的學制那所以總共到目前是兩萬多一點的學生那畢業的部分目前是五屆因為他陸陸續續還會在"},{"start":12850.052,"end":12852.313,"text":"新南向產系專班推動初期,學校在招生過程中"},{"start":12873.666,"end":12873.846,"text":"教育部長潘文忠"},{"start":12900.954,"end":12910.82,"text":"如果在學校做實習或是勞基法所同意的打工是非常清楚的規範也就比較不會有過去那一種是假求學之民可能來臺灣他就一直在努力工作要去償還他來臺灣的那些經費所以我想這一部分目前看起來我們所掌握到的包含照後面的這幾個計畫"},{"start":12924.207,"end":12926.969,"text":"謝謝部長,因為我本身就來自越南,所以我們就歡心說最多的就是越南學生來台南"},{"start":12949.804,"end":12978.643,"text":"是,所以我們希望說他們在這邊來到這邊不容易啦畢業後就是看起來比較少所以我們覺得說比例在比較低所以比較關心還有說他們畢業在這邊的就業所以說有一些多元的選擇的話也是更好的啦所以在我就是在世界總會回到越南有跟去拜訪外交部外交部也是覺得是說剛才我們部長有講說"},{"start":12979.784,"end":12991.57,"text":"因為之前都是因為學校都通過仲介來去招生導致很多就是剝削嘛讓學生沒辦法專心就業又沒辦法有錢連吃飯都沒有都吃泡麵很多都是這樣子所以到現在我們也說我們的教育部也有說未來要設一個就是我們的"},{"start":13004.457,"end":13004.577,"text":"因為時間的關係"},{"start":13023.424,"end":13027.449,"text":"主要學校一定要有這個責任把學生從越南找到我們台灣來求學對於這些學生的狀況要充分的掌握這部分也是我們課以學校責任的"},{"start":13038.842,"end":13039.583,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13068.181,"end":13069.942,"text":"這個制度其實是已經把它比較好的建構起來了"},{"start":13095.915,"end":13097.236,"text":"接下來我們請林倩琦委員"},{"start":13126.869,"end":13126.909,"text":"謝謝趙偉請潘部長"},{"start":13142.24,"end":13160.695,"text":"委員好潘部長好我們知道今天應該是您在519之前最後一次來所以本席今天大概在進入主題之前有一些感觸跟心情要跟您分享一下當然也跟部裡面藉這個機會也做一個溝通"},{"start":13162.737,"end":13162.757,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":13188.174,"end":13201.699,"text":"當然部裡面的同仁也是不管我們有什麼看法上的差異我們也是有很多大家可以一起繼續在努力的地方我這邊要回顧一下在本席從詢答"},{"start":13204.44,"end":13210.046,"text":"以後所碰到的一些狀況跟建議那我就發現在每一項的主題問答那我們這邊都會碰到這個有關於組織或是法案這個專案或者是計畫預算等等"},{"start":13219.797,"end":13242.429,"text":"過去的詢答包括各部會相關組織的調整或計畫的施行我這邊整理了一下發現截至目前為止都不太長這些相關的主題不僅時間不太長以外還有一個很重要的我覺得應該做的事情就是"},{"start":13243.666,"end":13260.045,"text":"都沒有進行定期的檢視、檢討跟修正那有一些其實包括剛才好幾位委員講的主題有一些好像事實上應該煞車重新省思或者是可以繼續在配套上做一些整理"},{"start":13260.606,"end":13278.619,"text":"在進行下去的部分好像大家都沒有時間在好好的做整理所以我在這邊呼應幾件很嚴重的也是我主題所講的就是在私校退場條例到今天我也提過很多次看起來就只有清算停辦接管接下來我們大家不知道何去何從"},{"start":13281.322,"end":13305.783,"text":"施肖要不要是要繼續就讓他這樣子結束細節我其實已經提了一些那未來還會再提那究竟他們要怎麼辦我們不知道怎麼辦我們沒有任何的預設立場那你要他往哪個方向去你總要告訴他們那怎麼走或者是能怎麼走好那再來呢是這兩年我們不管這個政策上是不是有什麼問題啦那感覺上很多量化的數字"},{"start":13306.744,"end":13333.258,"text":"好像很美可是看起來我們也不知道接續下去裡面的質量是如何剛才麥委員所講的東西本席在教學的第一線現場甚至在教育部裡面有記錄我就已經有經歷過很多的問題那上次次長又被我講了一圈我告訴他在這個國際生現場會碰到什麼樣的問題那你們男相事實上要注意到這些國家其實每一個國家的差異性非常的高"},{"start":13334.578,"end":13363.224,"text":"待會我當然再講一些細項不過在這邊我先提出一個最基本的一個建議最近許多的教團很期待我們應該舉辦一個全國的教育會議這個部分本席絕對呼應因為從2010年召開之後現在很久了雖然我們召委說教育是至少10年我們也知道百年的一個百年的一個時間但是14年沒有檢討你不覺得我們在現場"},{"start":13364.244,"end":13379.598,"text":"我相信行政教學等等都會有很大的問題所以因應社會的變遷跟這幾年的狀況跟問題我們是不是應該好好地檢討一下在各個層級所以我呼應正式舉辦全國教育會議來處理這件事情"},{"start":13380.299,"end":13380.539,"text":"大學推動國際招生並流用"},{"start":13399.15,"end":13423.515,"text":"但是基本上本席認為這就是2013年雙語計畫所延伸出來的子計畫早上有委員提醒你們哪雙語那本席作為一個原住民我也可不可以建議那原住民裡面就地區那這個雙語可不可以那個華語如果是大家現在都會講的那其他一個語言也可以選擇原住民的其中一個語言要不然我們原住民的孩子呢可能有的時候都要學三到四種"},{"start":13425.476,"end":13430.698,"text":"阿美族也要學到泰雅族的音樂師資的關係還有一些師資經費的不平等的問題還要學英語還要學自己的母語我們的負擔也很重我簡單提一下因為本人對語言很有興趣接觸的也很多也實地參與我可以提很細的建議但是我們今天不在這邊講細的東西"},{"start":13450.509,"end":13460.154,"text":"那所以呢我們談到這個很短的這個時間就連許多現在雙語成就很好的國家他也花了比我們預定的時間還長的時間而且基礎我們要來談論好究竟這樣子我們就會國家富強"},{"start":13467.458,"end":13467.478,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":13482.695,"end":13510.711,"text":"接下來這張牌子又出來了那如果這個問題沒解決絕對是幾年來都一定會繼續本席會一直念一直念那請原諒本席我也不喜歡一天到晚聽到某一些標語一直在那邊念啊念啊喊著喊著但是當然截至目前為止都沒有解決更何況今天是這個國際生的問題那我這邊要喊就是未來我們在2030年也要留用6萬多個人"},{"start":13511.832,"end":13539.753,"text":"那你們有跟我們現在在在學的學生的狀況跟未來他們在職場的狀況還有未來你這些外籍生對整個人口結構還有學生部分的就業就學的衝擊嗎那這個部分如果教育部還沒做因為常常本席提出來的問題教育部都說要不然去跟別人拿要不然就是你們沒有那如果沒有做本席在這邊提醒我剛才講的問題如果你們沒有聽懂那可以私下再跟本席確認好"},{"start":13541.59,"end":13569.828,"text":"所以本席在第一次也是提到了可不可以給我們原住民一個機會有學習到你們所謂的STEM我還要再念一次嗎Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics然後你們講的金融半導體Finance 跟 Semiconductor可不可以給我們一個機會不要把我們一直鎖在某一些原住民所謂相關的不管在原住民專班或產技2.0本席也比較過了謝謝會裡面有提供這個資訊不過會裡面跟我們說某些東西是機密"},{"start":13571.229,"end":13588.406,"text":"結果有的我們也在網路上查到怎麼辦你們機密不小心露出來了那你們要小心喔所以這些機密請會理對不起部裡面再好好的請示一下是不是要某種程度的提供給本席結果因為你們是機密所以本席很認真的查才查出天啊這個產績2.0是給"},{"start":13590.928,"end":13618.16,"text":"不僅是原住民的學生還給臺灣的學生然後國際專班呢依照你們都跟我們講說這應該是南向政策的什麼什麼各位一般民眾不會管我們什麼這個政策下面的哪一個經費請各位我們有責任把民眾的問題聽懂他說他不會管我們什麼南向政策下面的這一些配套那重點就是我很簡單的講就是每個月臺灣學生能夠拿到的資源跟補助"},{"start":13619.906,"end":13647.483,"text":"比國際專班的學生來得低很多這是第一個第二個未來他們的職場比我們能夠做的高端科技跟臺灣的主要科技的機會來得多很多所以我為什麼中華民國的納稅錢你照顧不了臺灣的原住民跟臺灣的學生所以本席本來只幫原住民爭取現在所有你們認為非國際生的人臺灣的學生本席都要爭取"},{"start":13648.664,"end":13652.028,"text":"接下來,臺灣優華語計畫的失之不足我先請教一下,我先問一下,我們現在認證考試是什麼樣子的狀況?就是,華語的認證考試"},{"start":13665.629,"end":13689.965,"text":"我們有 可以回應我一下我們懷疑認證考試的狀況嗎那剛才委員提一個我可能要跟委員補充說明一下我們的教育不過那個部長不好意思你一說明會有點久我要說明一下台灣的教育資源絕對大比例都是投資在我們自己國內的學生當然一定要啦因為我們的人數比例這個數據各位再算一下我們再來彼此的對一下啦我應該提到原住民的學生從學費的補助"},{"start":13693.587,"end":13694.268,"text":"如果在永住民族學生在後續"},{"start":13716.605,"end":13731.015,"text":"專案上可以再怎麼協助我想這個教育部跟委員這邊再交換一下意見部長我知道我是要跟您談的這個部分你也是很支持而且也投入不少也就是這個部分我要跟您肯定一下也希望部裡面的同仁也許有一些可以再聚焦再擴大這應該是什麼概念我是要看那個五專展示計畫因為大部分我們現在的專科學五專"},{"start":13741.803,"end":13742.584,"text":"邀請教育部長潘文忠列席就:「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討．並備質詢。．並備質詢。"},{"start":13767.826,"end":13781.755,"text":"跟委員報告我直接這樣講好了本人在學法語、西班牙語其他的語言那他都有第一、第一、二、三、四那請問我們的華語計畫是什麼我想了解一下我們的那個"},{"start":13782.78,"end":13801.788,"text":"有華語能力測驗檢測也有分級啊所以我們在各國都實行這個計畫嗎?對不對?是啊 因為如果他當事人希望大家要考過什麼東西?那個詳細的資料再給委員啊名字是什麼?我想那個主辦單位應該知道吧?我都唸得出來叫DELE A DELE UNO你們應該唸得出來吧?"},{"start":13805.009,"end":13806.49,"text":"對外華語的能力測驗叫華語文能力測驗英文簡稱TALK4"},{"start":13821.054,"end":13843.361,"text":"時間有點窘迫我這邊最後提一下剛才我呼應葛委員這邊所講的他剛才給你那個Very glad to see you這邊應該是Encantada que estes aquí那現在他講的這個AI很多東西都可以實踐是不是可以好好的研究一下他所講的東西因為本席有很深的語言學習經驗沒這個環境"},{"start":13844.821,"end":13844.901,"text":"主席"},{"start":13863.486,"end":13882.367,"text":"對好2023年4月公共政策網路平台全國教總的提議請我們好好檢討這個雙語包括早上有些委員講了什麼雙語我們當然知道大家在推行的是什麼回歸教育的正軌那本人第一線真的遇到很多困難那再來你們國發會的回應讓人家不知所措好接下來最後"},{"start":13883.888,"end":13900.807,"text":"如果有一些政策真的要煞車不要一意孤行按下暫停鍵讓我們都有機會喘氣好嗎那本人是第一線很認真的想要做好這件事情可是如果連我有時候都很無力的不知道能夠怎麼下去那"},{"start":13902.355,"end":13918.662,"text":"我們在這邊喊的再多大家都只有徒增困擾基層就只有越來越無力請不要讓我們的教育從我們所謂偉大的政策而消失好嗎謝謝部裡面謝謝潘部長好謝謝兩位接下來我們請邱志偉委員執行時間4分鐘謝謝"},{"start":13932.672,"end":13947.765,"text":"請教育部潘部長休息一下休息一下那個中生教育師李市長國際師廖代理市長學特師林市長吳市長好 請這三位市長表現一下我們整天都在補修在講要讓市長表現一下 來三位市長 謝謝這個"},{"start":13957.671,"end":13976.463,"text":"松城教育師我先問一下這個在職專班的這個入學人數跟在學人數是跟10年前比較是減少還是增加就是各大學院校的碩士班或者是學士班在職專班這是你的應該是你的業務吧"},{"start":13977.522,"end":14004.27,"text":"報告委員 那個學校的那個大學的在職專班是高教師跟教師主管 高教師來 高教師來來 主事長 時間跟時間以前比較這個在職專班不管是學士或者碩士 他的在學人數多還是少學士班的部分是往下降 那碩班的人數事實上也是微幅在往下降都這樣降 降了多少"},{"start":14006.544,"end":14034.257,"text":"就是說你會這樣代表說你的幼嬰不夠對不對你幼嬰不夠生源不足當然會影響這個大學的發展嘛所以你要想辦法說你在職專班他要提升他的專業很重要你要提升他的幼嬰在職進修那在職進修有幾個他在考量是不是工作可以許可是不是幼嬰這個足夠幼嬰足夠他的學位比較貴那你是不是在租稅上有一些幼嬰讓他願意花更多的錢去這個在職專班學習"},{"start":14036.842,"end":14037.262,"text":"重點產業領域擴大招生"},{"start":14064.517,"end":14076.854,"text":"包括這個重點產業的招生跟設立國際專業部這也是你啊好啦你繼續回答你覺得你滿意嗎這個成果你滿意嗎"},{"start":14081.946,"end":14098.114,"text":"國際專修部事實上在過去兩年的推動已經有三四千位的學生進來你覺得這符合產業界的需求嗎你進來就是說除了他這個專業領域能夠提升之外他能夠留在臺灣這個協助我們產業的發展嗎對不對那你聲援國很重要啊港澳東南亞"},{"start":14105.157,"end":14127.486,"text":"公文報我們主要是說他不會華語的學生來臺灣先修一年的華語我當然知道我剛剛講的港澳沒有算其他的東南亞印度這個歐洲國家都可以那你的誘因夠不夠如果兩年來三四千位我覺得是不夠的你第一個宣傳不夠第二個誘因不夠他沒有這個意願來"},{"start":14130.697,"end":14136.851,"text":"你如果能夠兩年這個吸引到兩萬人是不是可以提供我們這個產業的人才需求"},{"start":14138.086,"end":14138.246,"text":"另外這個華語："},{"start":14168.041,"end":14190.907,"text":"優華語計畫應該不是你吧優華語這個是屬於國際師那你覺得這個全部68所集中在美國啊你歐洲大概只有英國法國捷克波蘭歐洲國家那麼多我們代表處都有很多啊你要給他責任額啊"},{"start":14192.501,"end":14214.187,"text":"各位委員報告因為剛出這個優華語計畫是配合臺美教育倡議在109年的時候推出來的所以當時的一些重點學校會是以美國為主那我們現在也配合全球的布局不要太保守你既然是優華語計畫是針對全球嘛對不對你不要帳面數字然後你帳面數字攤出來哇都是美國是"},{"start":14215.547,"end":14224.956,"text":"美國學華語的機會也很多啊就是華語資源、華語教學比較不足的地方特別是歐洲國家歐洲國家近年來友好的氛圍非常強啊所以你應當是要選擇歐盟所以我們住處有住處的你要給他責任額你一年要遷幾個學校要做多少生源"},{"start":14236.487,"end":14258.469,"text":"我們這個優華語計畫主要是透過學校對學校的一個合作模式,那我們助主也會來協助,謝謝你要有這個宏觀,這個是放眼全球,不是只有美國而已另外這個學特師,目前教官在高中時跟大學的在職教官有幾位?"},{"start":14259.898,"end":14287.487,"text":"教官目前高中還有900多大專還有500多總共1400多1400多對那他們主要的工作內容是什麼維護校園安全包括房子要濫用交通安全 鄰居安全等等還有包括學生生活他們的這個官階大概是中校以上嗎高中的話 少校 中校對啊 你少校是中階的軍官中間軍官你叫他去維護交通"},{"start":14289.882,"end":14313.15,"text":"是注意不是 他所做的事 他所做的就是軍事訓練嘛那你慢慢的這個校園安全包括這個安全相關的宣導並不是他們所學的專業嘛所以你未來要慢慢用專業的人去取代這個校園安全的這個人員嘛而不是說為了填補他們的工作中間你就找一個工作給他做"},{"start":14315.165,"end":14316.426,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":14337.5,"end":14337.52,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":14364.511,"end":14364.711,"text":"徐新穎委員"},{"start":14381.295,"end":14407.876,"text":"徐委員好部長好雖然今天是您519以前最後一次來這裡但是因為您是政務官很多政策的問題本席還是要請教您當然也是同步希望我們教育部的同仁能夠重視我們地方的聲音首先第一個本席想請教您您知道軍公教從西元2000年以來到現在調興過幾次軍公教"},{"start":14410.978,"end":14413.64,"text":"但是我們的本土語文教學支援人員從2006年到現在調過幾次?"},{"start":14435.393,"end":14441.661,"text":"跟委員報告我比較掌握到的是110年那時候調整過一次所以2022條過一次所以這個部分會讓我們的語文教學資源人員會覺得說是不是"},{"start":14453.815,"end":14470.923,"text":"沒有制度化缺乏制度化等於是十幾年都沒有調心那我們看到就是2022年的時候因為有人在喊所以才調心所以這一塊是不是有可能制度化法制化"},{"start":14471.789,"end":14477.955,"text":"跟委員報告這個當然：尤其他們是屬於終點 他們領終點特別辛苦在目前公教條新的這個機制裡面他也確實有一些涵蓋的範圍跟對象我現在針對本土語言的教學資源"},{"start":14489.847,"end":14490.328,"text":"是不是可以制度化?"},{"start":14514.369,"end":14518.311,"text":"本土支援人力很辛苦,所以在一些配套的機制上,我們希望能夠制度化,但不能完全說比照,因為那個是有一個範圍﹖不一定比照,但是你要制度化,讓他才知道他有保障"},{"start":14535.68,"end":14560.054,"text":"接著本席想請教說我們臺灣都一直以來少子化可是為什麼呢都少子化了可是我們的教育資源好像還是越來越缺乏例如我們中央在本席第8屆擔任立委的時候那時候當然是馬英九總統執政的時候我們中央對地方很多很多的"},{"start":14561.114,"end":14587.786,"text":"金費的資源包括運動設備包括操場跑道包括音響設備資訊教學設備甚至當然我想您也知道校舍改建圖書館風雨球場還有這個活動中心等等到現在還是非常非常的缺乏那我們中央到底給地方的資源你們的準則是什麼"},{"start":14588.507,"end":14590.307,"text":"三千三百多億我現在想知道你們到底給地方的準則是什麼?"},{"start":14607.214,"end":14631.232,"text":"委員 這個在經費的補助都有各項的要點我剛才要講的是說 那個標準的作業要點我就不多說像學校操場 風雨圈 委員剛才你念的那一些幾乎都是這一年外加債 不是我們的教育預算這一年是哪一年 去年還是今年我說這幾年 委員知道嗎中小學的操場 我自己這幾年整修了將近一千所"},{"start":14632.313,"end":14648.479,"text":"那個概念都不是地方政府因為地方政府我知道財政也很有限像那個風雨球場這些我想這幾年改善非常多尤其委員知道那個斑斑有冷氣那幾十年都裝不來的也是在這幾年把它裝起來的所以"},{"start":14650.52,"end":14678.635,"text":"這些我自己在國教上也知道地方政府財政的限制所以跟行政院額外爭取的很多都是認為如果按照他們的資源可能再多少年都做不來連那個廁所啦那個孩子最在意的但是現在你沒有回答回答我的問題我時間已經沒有了就是你到底怎麼給的嗎沒有當他們你說你有一些要點對不對對啊那所以非常真的非常困難非常缺乏的都爭取得到嗎"},{"start":14679.255,"end":14687.546,"text":"委員如果以操場損壞程度越嚴重的只要限時列出來一定最優先活動中心這個議題我要比較嚴肅的說因為都是非常大的量體在整個補助上教育部不是以那個為優先"},{"start":14696.113,"end":14704.497,"text":"那資訊教學設備跟相關的一些運動設備呢這些當然都是優先方向目的都優先方向所以希望能夠重視地方的聲音那最後最後你說了斑斑有冷氣可是你們民進黨漲電價讓斑斑不敢開冷氣這一塊你這個斑斑有冷氣你電價漲成這樣讓學校斑斑不敢開冷氣所以呢我們希望不要我們希望動漲"},{"start":14725.808,"end":14731.99,"text":"這次的電費是我們一般性補償的指定項目如果電費有所調漲這個額度也會增加它只要在我們上課時間所規範的這個電費不會由家長學生出對 絕對不要讓我們的學子少子化 我們好好的教育給我們這麼少的這些幼苗給他們最好的教育環境"},{"start":14755.975,"end":14767.331,"text":"蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員"},{"start":14768.472,"end":14782.485,"text":"賴仕寶委員：好那今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有陳秀寶委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議呢本席做以下的決定報告質詢導完畢"},{"start":14784.807,"end":14800.985,"text":"委員所提的書面質詢或是相關的資料都要列入記錄並且刊登公報那對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或是未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡數以書面來答覆另外本席額外增加一個決定我們現在為我們潘部長大家拍手來謝謝他"},{"start":14802.406,"end":14818.81,"text":"多的一個努力謝謝部長謝謝希望未來還有機會不是在這個地方而是在很多我們臺灣的很多教育的現場能夠再看到你的現身影謝謝報告委員會我們今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":14835.359,"end":14835.539,"text":"主席"},{"start":14848.729,"end":14849.149,"text":"委員會主席響鐘"},{"start":14871.988,"end":14899.974,"text":"1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10"},{"start":14937.698,"end":14938.479,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15902","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685dc364aa3d15180a5bc78a9f27de259fb3be8d109af184be43cae2c99c11190605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-13","start_time":"2024-05-13T08:31:12+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-13T13:10:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16728,"委員發言時間":"08:31:12 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xt":"但過去卻往往只因為一句性質不適合工法上職務關係就讓他們連爭取勞動權益條件待遇的基本權利都沒有錦霄英雄面對的不僅僅是火災和犯罪還要面臨制度上的束縛和不公"},{"start":2410.371,"end":2428.571,"text":"​​ 此幾年許多錦霄同仁在執行勤務當中英勇的殉職也有人因為職場的壓力選擇自強離開我們這對他們的家庭社會都是不可磨滅的損失每一次新聞報導的哀調就提醒了我們這是制度上的漏洞"},{"start":2429.071,"end":2448.101,"text":"他們為了社會的安定和和諧付出了生命卻仍然缺乏足夠的權益保護因此本席提出工會法的修正草案是希望確保警消人員有籌組及加入工會的權利這不僅僅是對他們付出的認可也會是我們社會進步的標誌謝謝好謝謝陳菁輝委員的說明接下來我們請勞動部"},{"start":2456.198,"end":2459.193,"text":"許明春部長就以上三案並按說明時間10分鐘。"},{"start":2466.297,"end":2495.331,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生各位記者朋友大家好那感謝貴文會的邀請有本人向各位委員進行工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案勞動基礎法第五十四條條文修正草案勞動基礎法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案及中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法部分條文修正草案相關報告敬請委員不令指正"},{"start":2496.892,"end":2513.223,"text":"有關工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案部分政府對於警察與消防員的權益相當重視我國警察與消防人員具有公務人員的身份及團結權與協商權的行使涉及公務人員體系"},{"start":2515.224,"end":2541.788,"text":"關法令與勞工依工會法組織工會與僱主簽訂團體協約提升勞動條件二者顯有不同為了因應工部門勞動關係發展趨勢及回應各界有關公務人員結社的訴求去年10月30日考試院衛顯行政院將公務人員協會法部分條文修正草案送大院審查以朝向"},{"start":2542.368,"end":2547.474,"text":"》委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2557.325,"end":2567.31,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文"},{"start":2582.335,"end":2603.051,"text":"主管機關溝通以提升對於警察與消防員的保障委員所提修正工會法保障消防員或警察團結權以審慎評估朝向修正工人員協會法與保障有關勞動基準法第54條條文修正草案及勞動基準法第54條及86條條文修正草案部分"},{"start":2607.901,"end":2632.017,"text":"委員王育敏等18人提案修正勞動基準法第54條第二項,針列前項第一款所規定的年齡經勞資協議延任或新聘者得延後資。國民黨立院黨團提案修正勞動基準法第54條第一項第一款,針列勞工非有下列情形之一,雇主不得強制其退休,年滿65歲者,"},{"start":2633.618,"end":2660.576,"text":"但經勞資協議延任或新病者不在此限等規定,說明如下。勞動基準法第54條規定勞工非年滿65歲,雇主不得強制其退休。其立法的意旨是規範勞工在65歲前受雇,持續受雇到年滿65歲以前,雇主不得任意強制勞工退休。勞工年滿65歲,勞資雙方如果有意願,"},{"start":2663.878,"end":2676.896,"text":"​​僱主仍可以繼續僱用勞工從事工作。至於提案所提的新聘者如果是未滿65歲自可適用現行規定。另外新聘勞工如果是年滿65歲以後才受僱主僱用。"},{"start":2679.437,"end":2704.995,"text":"依據《中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法》的規定,僱主不論是與其簽訂、訂起契約或不訂起契約,事後都不得再以勞工打法定強制退休年齡為由,強制勞工退休,確保勞工工作權益。本次委員提案修訂《勞動基準法》明定僱主經勞資協議延後強制勞工退休年齡的規定利益良善,"},{"start":2705.996,"end":2725.67,"text":"為因勞動基準法是規範勞動條件的最低標準,如果勞工雙方有優於法令的協商約定,無需修法就可以適用。本部將加強宣導勞動基準法規定,確保勞工權益。有關中高齡及高齡者就業促進法部分條文修正草案部分,"},{"start":2726.761,"end":2749.06,"text":"有關委員郭育秦等19人提案修正第26條增列營利事業僱用中高齡和高齡的薪資費用,可以減除其營利所得稅額,鼓勵企業禁用中高齡者及高齡者的措施。但因涉及政府的財政、租稅減免和營利事業經營輔導業務,本部尊重財政部及經濟部的意見。"},{"start":2753.524,"end":2769.889,"text":"主管委員王育敏、顏寬恆等18人提案修正第九條增列明定本部至少每兩年更新職場的指引手冊及第29條放寬退休再就業的適用對象本部競表同意並遵照辦理。"},{"start":2770.709,"end":2785.741,"text":"有關委員馬文君、游浩、蘇金權、沈金威、徐宇貞等22人及委員邱若驊、廖偉祥、林佩祥、黃建豪、徐宇貞等20人提案修正第七條《明定本部每兩年訂定就業計劃》。"},{"start":2787.122,"end":2805.22,"text":"本部參考當前的勞動情勢,廣納產官學各界意見並檢討現行措施,訂定三年計劃。現行條文可以兼具實務運作的彈性,每年也依執行行滾動修正計劃內容,所以建議能夠維持現行條文。"},{"start":2807.202,"end":2821.537,"text":"有關增列第二項就業計畫內容包含就業促進、職業安全及健康之維護事項案本部竟表同意並建議納入現行施行規則第三條條文相關款次以為週延。"},{"start":2822.978,"end":2841.66,"text":"有關委員秋洛華、廖偉祥、林佩祥、黃建豪、徐宇貞等20人提案第36條修正本部因會商中央目的事業主管機關共同開發就業機會本部無異見。至增列政府應推動長壽產業部分"},{"start":2844.904,"end":2863.042,"text":"﹑經濟部長禮產業的發展範疇本部尊重經濟部的意見以上報告懇請各位委員先進柏林指教謝謝好謝謝許部長的說明跟報告那還有民眾黨黨團剛剛有要提案說明我們是請陳昭志委員"},{"start":2868.543,"end":2880.728,"text":"謝謝主席本席請代表民眾黨黨團針對工會法修正草案做提案說明那現行公務人員的這個協會制度僅賦予公務人員跟這個政府進行健康勤務跟設備等事項的權限但是該協商不能夠締結團體的協約缺乏勞動"},{"start":2885.87,"end":2901.724,"text":"公會是完整的勞動三權。按照《公民與政治權利國際公約》及《經濟社會文化權利國際公約施行法》第八條有明確的規範,人人由全組促進及保障其經濟及社會利益而組織公會及加入其自身選擇之公會。"},{"start":2902.705,"end":2927.186,"text":"那目前先進國家包括德國、美國、意大利等都有警察及消防員組成之公會組織。那為了落實我國憲法保障人民結社的自由以及經社文公約施行法則立法旨意並考量我國行政機關對施行之影響應循序漸進開放公務員組成公會原提案修正公會法第四條及第六條明定警察及消防員得組織及加入公會並考量"},{"start":2927.846,"end":2953.778,"text":"警消體系之特殊性規範警消人警德組織及加入產業工會及職業工會事實上就是說事實上他們的爭取已經將近10年剛剛其他委員說明也提到了我今天非常感謝王育敏召委能夠排審警消組成工會的這個法案那我們終於有機會進入這個實質審查希望這個禮拜就能夠送審送出委員會那並早日完成三讀通過落實我們對警消同仁的勞動權益保障謝謝"},{"start":2957.85,"end":2985.035,"text":"謝謝民眾黨黨團的提案說明有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答作以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘"},{"start":2985.984,"end":2994.933,"text":"依照往例審查法案今天不處理臨時提案我們現在請登記第一位陳昭之委員發言有請部長謝謝好請許部長"},{"start":3006.394,"end":3014.459,"text":"陳副委員好。部長好。今天是我跟您的最後一次的詢答。我很珍惜這個機會。不過部長見諒我今天還是要盡我的監督責任。不能打折扣。部長我們過去常常看到許多重工業化或化學工業的工廠發生爆炸大火。"},{"start":3024.506,"end":3024.727,"text":"〈一〉國民黨團擬具〉"},{"start":3044.605,"end":3058.533,"text":"國營事業諸如臺電跟中油也常常發生公安事件前年不管是在臺電這個圖上有臺電的中部火力發電廠發生煤倉火災或是說中油大林煉油廠發生爆炸大火"},{"start":3059.634,"end":3072.867,"text":"除此之外,如果能夠說好事前的防範,是不是可以把事故範圍縮小?那部長是不是也同意說國營事業應該要帶頭,帶頭把做好事前的風險管控,這個國營事業要帶頭來做,部長同意嗎?那部長,我有一些資料跟部長分享,我對於這個勞動部職安署在接獲檢舉之後,"},{"start":3084.557,"end":3108.303,"text":"公安事件風險管控的防暴電器設備採購資料進行調查,我是非常肯定,就是有去索取這個動作。但是部長您認為這個子安署的同仁在進行調查的時候有盡興嗎?您有信心嗎?報委我們其實子安署的同仁都非常的認真盡責,所以我相信他們一定會就相關"},{"start":3109.483,"end":3113.906,"text":"對於職安署的負責防爆電器設備頭人是否有依法進行調查我這裡要打一個問號那我說明給部長聽最後再請部長來回答好那請看下一張部長我接下來秀這個資料都是廠商去進行這個防爆電器設備的這個形式檢定合格後"},{"start":3129.898,"end":3130.578,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案件。"},{"start":3160.418,"end":3181.706,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。cellence 請部長稍微記一下目前他是有這個四個形式那部長檢報上這兩張就是身方連同前面RSTI他檢定合格的證明傳到這個治安署的這個網站上的產品型錄我們也看到是看到是一致的EYS EYM EYD跟EYDM而且上面有一個比較"},{"start":3183.109,"end":3190.675,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":3207.668,"end":3234.728,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 中是三個形態,EYS、EYM、EYD,部長就是現在是這個狀況,也就是說2023年7月10號,ISTI檢定合格書上面只有說深方公司的產品型號才多了EYDM,我想署長會很清楚,就之前它是合組了三個形態,那只有到2023才多了個EYDM,那2020之前並沒有,部長到目前為止我的資訊是這樣子,OK嗎?"},{"start":3238.368,"end":3251.055,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案 規定合格證明傳到職安署的網站上的產品進入你可以看到上面有個材質是寫可斷鑄鐵"},{"start":3255.118,"end":3269.176,"text":"議員請記住這是可斷註帖是2017到2022年那我們也可以看到這重點來了明明看到RST在2017年他所核准的這個形式檢定只有三種EYS、EYM、EYD"},{"start":3270.277,"end":3296.963,"text":"但這邊的刑路卻多了一個UIDM型號。請問部長為何會發生這種?廠商登錄在這個職安署的網站上,那個檢定合格證明書跟刑路會有不一樣的狀況。過去職安署都不用去核對這個上傳的資料嗎?還是身方上傳資料有問題?還是ISTI檢驗有問題?職安署是否要進行一個調查?部長這不是小事欸這個是偽造文書欸。"},{"start":3299.264,"end":3305.909,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12屆委員會議上傳了一個：立法院第12屆委員會議上傳了一個：立法院第12屆委員會議上傳了一個：立法院第12屆委員會議上傳了一個："},{"start":3319.44,"end":3320.74,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":3341.892,"end":3364.834,"text":"那下一張畫面上這兩張一樣是在大林電廠提供給職安組的資料當中2019年的採購案當時申方公司拿到的ISTI核發的形式檢定核證明根本沒有求墨注帖也沒有EUIDM的型號因為那是在2023年之後我剛剛已經秀資料給部長看了"},{"start":3365.094,"end":3365.114,"text":"),委員"},{"start":3388.695,"end":3401.664,"text":""},{"start":3402.312,"end":3422.944,"text":"各位有回報,第一個國營企業的安全衛生我們用高標準來做檢查所以我們勞動朋友跟各部會成立一個跨部會的檢測平台針對各種重大案件我們會做檢疫檢討那剛才那個案子是火災爆炸但是沒有人員傷亡所以不是直災案件第二個有關這個案子我之前也跟委員親自到委員辦公室報告這個案子我們初查結果看是身方"},{"start":3423.524,"end":3436.412,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":3448.92,"end":3465.336,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件 請檢查官僚最重要的了解,所以我們一直在進行,而且委員的資料都是我們財產署給您提供、給您報告的,後續我們同仁我們會立即堅決主張,我們同仁是依照法定來辦的事情,如果我們同仁有任何的疑慮,我們會再處理。"},{"start":3470.161,"end":3482.512,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員"},{"start":3489.898,"end":3506.291,"text":"他們這個在凱道夜宿爭取主工會結果換來不是工會而是所謂的這個特種協會那到現在為止聽部長的報告也是只願意修改公務員協會但是這兩個的立場差很大喔因為這個協會公共會差保障差很大因為他們沒有這個團結權也沒有這個團體的協會權更沒有爭議權那我們是不是想辦法讓基層警消跟政府有平衡談話的權利那我們再來看看這個就是說他們不是"},{"start":3518.7,"end":3523.364,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3537.495,"end":3554.325,"text":"應公殉職應公死亡每一條都是人命都是背後一個破碎的家庭他們的工作請部長就能夠了解警消工作的風險他們這個讓基層的元宵能夠有跟政府公平談判的權利那請部長放心主公關的目的不是罷工啦"},{"start":3554.645,"end":3564.973,"text":"​​國民黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3584.428,"end":3604.633,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":3613.444,"end":3616.166,"text":"各位委員主席請許部長好請許部長部長我知道這是最後一個禮拜我們一起相處但我們還是要工作到最後一天還是得認真我一定會盡忠職守到最後一刻謝謝那當然這禮拜的重頭戲就是審工會法老幾法等相關的草案但大家為什麼這麼在意"},{"start":3638.723,"end":3663.168,"text":"因為近期內實在有太多悲劇發生近四年內就有22位的基層員警自強去年民洋大火大家看電視都非常的痛心有四位消防人員不幸的喪生所以這些人剛好都在非常年輕的時候也是一個家庭的支柱所以我們必須要更爭取他們的權益去年第十屆的末期"},{"start":3664.208,"end":3676.842,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3681.087,"end":3701.036,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」案件是由2017年開始說的,您說支持組工會有這個四個建議,勞動部有四個建議,你看至今我們沒有一個有實現,第一個、第二個、第三個、第四個,那當然為什麼我們今天會這麼重視,因為第二個跟您是高度相關。"},{"start":3703.632,"end":3729.794,"text":"你會不會覺得說身為一個部長又是勞工的靠山又是一位律師這些也不用本席跟您說了勞工三權就是團結權集體協商權還有爭議權所以我們看當初提出來的草案為什麼沒有人買單也沒有人感恩也沒有人想要來討論因為這邊寫得很清楚嘛當你有影響"},{"start":3731.215,"end":3736.936,"text":"允許協商協商權假使破裂就必須要走到爭議這一步可是呢你給他沒有力道的協商權他其實也不能幹嘛"},{"start":3755.24,"end":3770.017,"text":"最後當然你們的書面報告有寫到說已經把800人可以組成工協會下降為400人可是比起組工會只要30個人就可以成立這樣子的人數是天差地遠"},{"start":3771.318,"end":3791.548,"text":"除此之外警消人員他們每天忙在基層的工作就非常的忙碌了還要他們去找400個人一起來成立協會這樣是不是會太可可為很想要聽聽部長您身為勞工的靠山又是律師又是這方面的專業有什麼看法這四個提案看起來目前就第二個比較可行啊"},{"start":3792.735,"end":3807.543,"text":"包括委員我想對於我們警消人員的這個團結權他應該給予保障我想勞動部包括我個人我自始至終我都支持啦我都支持那當然到底要用什麼路徑"},{"start":3808.882,"end":3810.284,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":3828.4,"end":3848.443,"text":"僅消人員來講他另外一個身份就是公務人員那他的工作是保障社會大眾的生活還有穩定社會秩序所以他是具有高度的公共利益的工作那我想給他們更好的勞動權也應該只是說那個身份上"},{"start":3849.697,"end":3853.76,"text":"公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員"},{"start":3872.375,"end":3873.356,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":3888.217,"end":3888.577,"text":"兼職人員兼職人員兼職人員"},{"start":3908.223,"end":3923.885,"text":"但是不能無限的情緒勒索畢竟他們同事的這些情務是很容易危及生命的因為其實在其他國家的法制我們也可以做參考像我們隔壁的日本跟新加坡他們警消人員是"},{"start":3924.686,"end":3950.371,"text":"除公會的但是他們用怎麼樣一個另外一個那個組織來保障那些我覺得以臺灣來講我們其實最快我是覺得最快因為我們希望一個訴求就像委員講的公會法已經倡議這麼久了那如果其他路徑可以盡快達到他們的這個訴求的目的我覺得大家可以找這個方向來努力2017年你提出了四個方案但是去年你還是給了一個軟釘子"},{"start":3952.751,"end":3981.303,"text":"你最後是說其實還是修公務員的協會法是最快但是這次的草案當然這個書面報告也不是歸您管啦所以你應該也沒有辦法可能個人的立場你不方便說出那你公務人員協會法應該要怎麼修訂比較好可是我們還是希望說這個是您的一念之間啦所以我們可以禮拜三的時候繼續討論因為我們還是很希望可以保障警消的這個勞動三權"},{"start":3982.563,"end":4010.237,"text":"拜託,因為勞動三權就是結社、協商跟爭議,那爭議權就是罷工,其實罷工是達到他們訴求的手段,可是錦囂人員的罷工這件事情可能社會大眾會有疑慮啦。 有一些國家它會設定一些條件,比如說一定的執勤的人數,一定的比例等等的,你覺得這方面是可以討論的嗎?"},{"start":4010.237,"end":4011.338,"text":"這個部分我覺得要在"},{"start":4011.798,"end":4012.4,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":4018.661,"end":4041.426,"text":"公示出來因為爭議權為什麼像日本新加坡他也不不可以組工會可能我想他們也有一些考量比如說爭議這個罷工權可能會影響到社會大眾的一個生存的安全這個部分我覺得可能就是要審慎但是我覺得對於他們的協商跟結社這個部分我們認為應該要朝更寬的方向來做"},{"start":4042.426,"end":4056.953,"text":"國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部"},{"start":4068.319,"end":4088.541,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4088.681,"end":4091.423,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4118.541,"end":4118.561,"text":"月30﹗"},{"start":4137.242,"end":4166.056,"text":"再來是勞動部5月7號而上週末是內政部突然也大費周章的發了很多新聞稿5月11讓公務員是加班喔因為是禮拜六才發出來的所以你們這個順序是有什麼原因嗎報告委員是這樣子是國發會統整各部會的具體的措施先徵詢我們有沒有加入的意願那我們跟國發會表達勞動部有加入這個CAP的意願"},{"start":4166.929,"end":4168.511,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4187.509,"end":4208.977,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 規定說好這16個政府或是這些國家假使他有任何一個國家並沒有配合或是違反當初的協議最後應該要怎麼處理所以這個是不是什麼時候才會讓送到立法院來被查因為大家對於這個global cape的內容現在是收不到一無所知欸你講得出來嗎"},{"start":4213.295,"end":4235.715,"text":"委員的這個疑問我們後續會跟國法會那你講得出勞動部的業務嗎?勞動部會多出哪些業務嗎?勞動部就是個人資料保護的問題我們會配合國法會對於這個隱私跨境隱私資料跨境的配合打擊犯罪的這個部分所以這個跟警政系統的串聯會有什麼差別嗎?"},{"start":4238.305,"end":4245.955,"text":"以個人資料保護隱私的部分為主。我希望可以盡快看到我們送到立法院來,謝謝。接下來我們請林月琴委員質詢。"},{"start":4268.292,"end":4294.138,"text":"有請消防署的署長還有我們的情緒部正次。好,請署長跟正次。兩位好。消防法第一條就明定我們的消防員有三大勤務,就是預防火災跟那個災害救助跟急難救護。所以"},{"start":4294.574,"end":4311.2,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件及其其他項目及其其他項目及其其他項目及其其他項目及其其其他項目及其其其他項目及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":4312.162,"end":4335.104,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件事務部門有8個科一個中心4個救災救護大隊一個特收大隊41個分隊4個收救的救助分隊光一個縣市就這麼龐大大概有一個這樣的服務人口比大概1比"},{"start":4336.392,"end":4338.835,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4354.318,"end":4380.071,"text":"所以商業保險事實上對於消防員也是最高等級所以這樣的業務繁雜、復原廣大、人力吃緊、工作危險再加上24小時的待命、輪休的執勤機制消防人員的工作風險度是比較高的那當然這也是社會大眾也非常的關注就持續關注我們警消人員的工作安全、設備跟勞動條件"},{"start":4381.352,"end":4384.696,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4395.972,"end":4412.416,"text":"公務人員顧主是國家,那跟國家之間的關係受到公法的規定,所以要自行去主張權益的問題上常常就受到法律很多的限制所在,所以這個問題也討論很久了,所以想來問兩位,不知道兩位"},{"start":4413.888,"end":4415.53,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4437.032,"end":4462.615,"text":"先跟委員回報就是我們有先前針對縣市消防局消防局的意見是怎麼樣那麼瞭解以後事實上目前有18個消防局不同意入工會法組工會這是第一點那只有一個縣市他認為說可以入工會法但是要限制罷工權這是另外一個狀況那有三個機關是保留態度的一個情形跟委員先做回報"},{"start":4463.476,"end":4470.967,"text":"總共18個縣市事實上是反對的是消防局這邊 那就想問因為全市部這邊的調查裡邊有講說大概"},{"start":4477.742,"end":4503.795,"text":"也就是各縣市我不知道這是調查首長因為剛剛是消防局那你這邊調查總共15個縣市事實上是不贊同贊同的是6個縣市一個無意見的是嘉義市所以想問一下這15個縣市尤其是六都他們的反對跟支持的就反對的理由是什麼尤其是在野黨的國民黨有總共10個縣市是持反對不贊同的意見"},{"start":4504.475,"end":4512.875,"text":"民眾黨也是反對,所以想問一下,你調查的是先是首長,因為他們直接甚至會遇到的問題是什麼,可不可以請全序部這邊回答。"},{"start":4513.783,"end":4541.874,"text":"是因為主要他們認為現在的相關配套沒有完整所以現行還是不宜適用工會法現階段還是適用那個協會法所謂配套的是什麼因為他們可能會遇到的困難會是什麼就比如說他的身份的身份必須要先確定然後相關的這個這個協商的機制在協會裡面沒有辦法得到"},{"start":4542.534,"end":4545.717,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4565.698,"end":4589.681,"text":"他們是支持工務人員協會法。那消防署這邊想問一下各縣市的消防員對於組工會。剛剛因為你是講局長可是想還是要問的是因為我覺得基層人員的感受事實上是最深。那因為事實上是要保障他們的權益。所以想問一下有沒有做過這樣的一個調查。那他們的觀點有沒有除了工會這個選項以外有沒有其他的觀點。"},{"start":4591.935,"end":4613.757,"text":"議員,這個部分我們要做調查,但是我們現在積極朝向三個部分來進行。是不是方斌跟我們報告?好。是。就職業安全角度來看是要從裝備器材的良好,同時來做執行。這是第一個要件。第二個就是針對整個管理系統來做一個強化。第三個部分整個組織安全文化,這是三個區塊。"},{"start":4615.058,"end":4640.665,"text":"所以在裝備器材的部分目前消防署已經奉憲政院核定23個計畫幾乎快達到200億的經費針對裝備器材、車輛、聽色這個部分來強化我們所謂執行安全的第一個腳步那第二個腳步就是這一次消防法修正案已經在4月30號已經把職業安全的消防法的專章已經報到憲政院應該在最近會報到立法院來做審查"},{"start":4642.005,"end":4650.132,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":4668.008,"end":4671.511,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一、審查��"},{"start":4682.759,"end":4686.68,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4700.725,"end":4704.428,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件事項》案件事項"},{"start":4721.681,"end":4746.783,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4749.582,"end":4764.036,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4764.642,"end":4784.323,"text":"對,但是現在如果是我們現在協法如果放寬之後他們幾乎是一個比較對等的夥伴去對話了也不是說有高低這種差異沒有那麼明顯的可是如果整個工會組織它裡面的成員都是像是同樣的一個"},{"start":4786.186,"end":4814.497,"text":"), ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4814.881,"end":4833.928,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及其他公務員擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員"},{"start":4841.445,"end":4844.326,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。 »:"},{"start":4871.94,"end":4873.141,"text":"徐副長下任之後要去哪裡?"},{"start":4888.899,"end":4893.984,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4913.082,"end":4931.453,"text":"其中促進中高齡就業在進入職場的職務設計非常重要目前我們職務在設計的執行率的狀況怎麼樣我跟委員報告一下以去年來講去年我們補助了549家的事業單位人次是2250人這個比111年的1888人增加了20%"},{"start":4939.438,"end":4954.793,"text":"今年截至3月底來算是受了131家的事業單位那608人申請所以我認為這個植物再設計的服務應該這幾年的成效有逐漸增加我請問部長現在有哪些產業來申請?產業?"},{"start":4959.873,"end":4960.113,"text":"指揮部長指揮部長"},{"start":4980.373,"end":5005.252,"text":"那我想問勞動部,我們如何具體提供促進我們中高齡在就業的一個誘因?而依據勞動部的分析,申請的產業是否與現在的中高齡者想投入的產業相符?這個比較重要吧?其實我們各位報告,我們這個職務在設計我們是不分產業,我們都歡迎他們來申請。我們有協助設計中高齡的彈性就業的這個"},{"start":5007.734,"end":5022.674,"text":"有有有這個也有那我希望勞動部要把這工作交接好了因為未來我想也是非常重要的一個工作那也希望說未來的新內閣能夠繼續持續來做這件事情"},{"start":5024.056,"end":5051.204,"text":"那最近外面有許多降低企業勞工組織工會門檻的呼籲希望從現行的30人降為10人或15人請問部長對於降低組工會的門檻勞動部的立場會是怎麼樣?報告委員當然這個降低工會門檻的這個訴求就成立門檻的人數的訴求一直都有這樣的一個參與那有沒有跟經濟部這邊來做跨部會的這個溝通?"},{"start":5055.56,"end":5078.41,"text":"〔主席〕 其實這個部分因為主責單位在關係司他們都有多方包括資方、勞方都有去聽取各界的意見主席認為現在的貧富差距越來越大中小企業競爭力不再是主因而中小企業的個人是國人的就業的一個主因"},{"start":5079.55,"end":5108.97,"text":"繼我們統計的平均每一個中小企業平均壽命只有13年那經營非常的困難那我想政府第一步應該要協助這個中小企業的發展我這個落實勞資的溝通這才是對勞工最好的一個保障當然工會我們的勞工的權益當然要保護但我覺得更重要的他的工作就是中小企業的協助我覺得這個也是重點你再給他再多的權力如果公司倒了"},{"start":5110.011,"end":5116.535,"text":"沒有了那等於零嘛對不對那我再請問一下這個全序部的代表對於警消的工作過勞高危險積極爭取犯官這個警消人員的主工會的這個狀況我想先請問一下勞動部的您的立場怎麼樣"},{"start":5139.056,"end":5166.746,"text":"對,包括委員我們是認為因為他的勞動權我們支持要保障但是我們認為說他的保障路徑因為就是主要他是公務人員的身份那我們認為應該就是在這個公務人員協會法這裡面來落實看如何來強化跟協商他的強化跟提升他的這個擴大他的結社權跟協商權這個是主要的目標跟方向"},{"start":5167.54,"end":5183.467,"text":"那我想請問一下考試院的全序部我們目前有沒有重新提案方向還是朝這個放寬工協會的這個成立門檻嗎?是是那個門檻降低協商內容增加這樣子。好啦這個問題事實上我覺得啦"},{"start":5184.367,"end":5203.113,"text":"僅消人員因為是屬於危牢的一個行業那長期爭取應落實公務人員安全及衛生防護法我覺得這非常的重要第三條的規定我們也希望全序部能制定相關的辦法具體提供僅消人員的安全衛生及防護措施或者是適用"},{"start":5204.073,"end":5207.295,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5234.053,"end":5258.067,"text":"好吧那我再請問我們的許部長是上次我們談到112年到這個15歲到24歲青年失業率仍然高達11.37%部長跟我說現在已經降到8%多我回去怎麼看怎麼查就找不到你說的數據啊找不到數據有啊"},{"start":5263.659,"end":5284.039,"text":"結果我後來問了勞動部你們發展署跟我說你講的是15歲到29歲但這兩張表根本就沒有15到29歲的統計級距事實上我提問的就是引用勞動部台灣勞工紀刊第72期提出的是針對15歲到24歲的失業率的比較"},{"start":5288.982,"end":5291.263,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5308.947,"end":5321.599,"text":"公務員報告因為我們目前在青年就業齁基本上是以15到29歲那有一些勞動同期我覺得現在是這樣現在問題不在於說幾歲到幾歲重點是說你們提供出來的數據無論是勞動部"},{"start":5324.682,"end":5328.144,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":5347.213,"end":5371.189,"text":"你就是要讓人家誤解嘛 對不對 我希望大家政府應該這樣子啊誠實面對問題這樣子我們才會有進步的空間好不好跟委員報告因為其實我們現在國內針對這個失業的族群主要是15到29歲這個區間可能都需要政府在透過我們這個方案來做一個協助所以我們大概是會聚焦在這個部分那所以你們以後公布就公布15到29歲嗎"},{"start":5373.308,"end":5396.752,"text":" entreprene?你們為什麼要去拉那個奇怪的資料呢?讓人家找不到。這個是主席總書他的統計資料。不過委員您的建議我們在...因為我們這個青年就業、青年失業的改善是針對...也不是不對啦。我們可能另外這個聚焦的部分我們另外做一個統計數據讓大家能夠了解。可能這樣子會誤會。謝謝。好,謝謝邱委員。"},{"start":5402.321,"end":5429.976,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。主席好,有請我們徐部長。好,徐部長請。廖仁豪。等一下喔,我先開一下這個PowerPoint。好。"},{"start":5434.224,"end":5435.945,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一�"},{"start":5464.571,"end":5489.915,"text":"我發現我們台灣有一個很特別的狀況我們都知道這個社會問題發生這個的問題在哪裡然後弊病在哪裡甚至可以拿來當作藝術創作拿來改寫成劇本成為民眾的休閒但是我們好像就是沒有辦法解決這個問題業務繁雜過勞高殉職比例工時過長人力不足輪班制度無限上綱不能當吹哨者"},{"start":5491.343,"end":5513.353,"text":"全體的根源在於他們不能為自己發聲對不對這些問題我們都知道但請問部長這是您最後一次的這一周的質詢人將下台其言也善想要請問就你個人而言你同意消防員為自己說話促進消防人員的權益嗎同意你同意嗎那你同意他們組工會嗎"},{"start":5515.355,"end":5533.175,"text":"拜託委員其實發生的方式有很多種那因為消防人員他不是一般的勞工所以他組工會可能在身份上依我們目前的法制是有他的局限性但是就是說沒關係部長就你個人的言你同意嗎"},{"start":5533.715,"end":5555.994,"text":"我覺得可能我們必須考慮到他整個身份問題然後看怎麼樣在目前的他已經有的像公協法來強化、擴大他們的這個造捷權為目標啦。 不長照您的說法就是我只想要簡單的答案就是您同意還是不同意所以您是覺得不同意因為你覺得有其他路徑是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":5556.474,"end":5564.733,"text":"我覺得如果其他路徑也可以達到這個他們訴求的目的,那我們就可以來…好,部長,那我們請全序部的政務次長,"},{"start":5565.836,"end":5592.806,"text":"所以你剛剛講的就是說你要改這個修工務人員協會法嘛那按照今天全序部的報告全序部去年3月才開始送版本還在徵集各部會的表示意見那2021年這個台劇的劇組都比你們了解問題你們到2023年已經送版本到立法院為什麼到今年的3月7號還在問各單位的意見這不是應該去年就做完的事情嗎為什麼到現在還說在溝通意見呢"},{"start":5594.062,"end":5617.154,"text":"我們其實是用開會方式處理啊但是後來這個10月30號送到立法院之後因為屆期不連續推來之後呢我們覺得應該直接徵詢縣市政府的意見好所以到現在還在研議嘛對不對相當的研議整個任期都在研議嘛意見不是大家都早就知道嗎那然後蔡政府也不重視然後你剛剛講了屆期不連續就讓他銷聲匿跡現在你們都已經準備要換"},{"start":5621.52,"end":5624.416,"text":"換內閣了還在演繹那請問你們下一次提版本到底要什麼時候?"},{"start":5625.526,"end":5654.135,"text":"我想這個施政是延續的啦我們這些資料會交下去到下一屆新的內閣會處理基本上還是朝向在協商內容放寬以及參議門檻降低的方面去處理部長、次長那我現在就拜託你們一件事情你們交到下一任的時候可不可以把這個列為最先的優先事項把這個問題解決好不好你們可不可以到時候要求說這個東西你們強烈建議是下一任的內閣的優先事項"},{"start":5655.646,"end":5657.187,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":5676.414,"end":5704.915,"text":"他說改革不及早啟動勞保基金恐怕撐不久民國116年之後財務缺口幾乎是懸崖直接跳到太平洋要救都來不及但是這8年下來沒有見到改革只有自民國109年開始透過用公務預算撥補的方式讓現金流穩定部長現在正在籌編明年度的預算請教部長勞動部原本計畫希望行政院明年撥補多少金額"},{"start":5705.946,"end":5731.455,"text":"包括因為現在在籌編那我們基本上按照過往的經驗政府的撥補應該都會參酌前一年的預算金額來去設定所以應該我想明年的撥補金額應該也不會少不會少就是會很多這樣那明年度至少要撥多少金額才會不會去動用或是變賣國內外的股票或債券跟不動產"},{"start":5732.523,"end":5756.622,"text":"拜託委員因為那個撥補的金額到底要撥補多少還是要看整個財政的狀況那這幾這像去年跟今年整個的勞保基金的投資效益都不錯像去年的話我們的勞保基金賺了1100億他投資報酬率14.44%這個是帳面的金額你有去你有去做你有去把變賣出來變現出來嗎這個當然就是"},{"start":5760.104,"end":5765.429,"text":"公務預算撥補的金額恐怕會有調整但是我想要問你你會建議新的部長或未來行政院長在編列這個撥補勞保基金預算至少要多少金額嗎"},{"start":5785.597,"end":5805.153,"text":"拜訪委員我想第一個是持續撥補這個立場應該不會改變然後金額的部分其實過去我們也認為說希望能夠在財務許可的情況下越多越好部長你剛剛是有提到參考過去的對不對對好所以從這個表我們可以看到今年度共撥了1300億"},{"start":5808.707,"end":5829.686,"text":"μη憑收支差額。但是預估明年度的收支差額應該也至少超過一千三。去年的收支差異是四百四十幾,四四六啦。一一二年嘛。對,我說一一三年。今年度啊。因為這個都是精算報告。這是精算報告預估的啦,報告委員。其實實際的差異數有時候"},{"start":5831.425,"end":5849.421,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體"},{"start":5853.5,"end":5881.455,"text":"後年度的收支差會不會到1800億?報告委員這個是精算報告的數字推估的今年我們還重新做精算報告精算報告不就是要給我們來參考別人預算用的嗎?但是我要跟委員說這是參考數據不是實際會發生的數據可是你都講精算報告我們不是就要先看到這個數字來做營運嗎?我的意思是說政府的撥補他會參考但是也是要橫著他的財務狀況"},{"start":5882.856,"end":5900.373,"text":"好我先要講你看這裡的表基本上你的收支差就是不斷的在擴大嘛如此繼續擴大我們的收支差額恐怕會不會賴清德第一屆總統任內我們勞保基金三兆的資產恐怕會不夠支付所有的法定支出新任的部長會不會是破產部長"},{"start":5902.967,"end":5923.781,"text":"因爲你剛剛有講部長你說股市上漲的時候勞動部就會跳出來宣稱說勞動基金賺了好多錢好棒棒但是這都是帳面價值沒有出清錢都只是數字但對於已經請領退休金額的人來講這個現金流才是重點但是我們的給付並沒有發生任何問題是現在沒有基金餘額到9900多億到3月的時候9900多億你現在沒有當然就是因爲你說公約預算一直來撥補不是不是"},{"start":5933.367,"end":5954.062,"text":"多補當然是一個財源挹注,那去做投資運用那也是增加財源的一個方式。我要再跟委員說我們的這個……好,部長,那我等一下給你看下面的數據。基金就是來填補每年的收支逆差的差距。我們從數據上來看,最近六個月,光是這個年金給付一項,人數從175.9萬增長到182.4萬人。"},{"start":5959.606,"end":5971.533,"text":"擬副金額也從每個月的328.5億增加到340億。這是政府公佈的短期數據是看不太出來有什麼很大的差異性的。但是如果把這數據的時間拉長來看,從108年的2月擬副人數是121.82萬,擬副金額是207億。但是到今年2月已經到了182.4萬人,擬副金額也從207億每個月增長到340億。"},{"start":5987.842,"end":5999.51,"text":"短短五年的時間幾副人數增長了49.75%幾副金額也增長了63.8%部長你知道這代表的意思是什麼嗎?這本來就是在預估的範圍因為已經到一個成熟期"},{"start":6002.118,"end":6026.383,"text":"除此之外﹑其內增的人數本來就會增加所以才說這個勞保的問題我們可能要因為這整個人口結構的改變其實我想這應該也不只我們在關心啦已經講了勞保改革很久了嘛對不對是不是蔡英文找這些人數都是在原來的預估範圍裏面是但是蔡英文找柯文哲到他們總統府談的時候也講了嘛他第一件事情跟他講的就是勞保改革"},{"start":6027.864,"end":6046.845,"text":"議員,現在戰後嬰兒潮的退休潮已經開始了。過去五年的無論是增加給付人數或是增加給付金額都是呈現45度的上揚。但是退休者是依據法令的申請退休和申請給付。所以政策上我想你們能夠做的是不是想辦法延退。"},{"start":6049.281,"end":6070.251,"text":"例如在數據上顯示現在申請擬的年齡的這個極具的高峰是在60到64歲再來才是65到69歲還有55到59歲而媒體調查支持延後退休的年齡也有很高的支持率請教部長除了法定的逐步調高退休年齡外我們還有哪些鼓勵延退的機制"},{"start":6071.957,"end":6087.705,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全"},{"start":6097.799,"end":6110.747,"text":" »:我希望說部長你在交接下一任的時候是不是這件事情也請他們誠實面對不要再一拖再拖拖了8年過去的謝謝等一下圖權級委員質詢結束後我們休息5分鐘現在請蘇清泉委員質詢"},{"start":6125.016,"end":6149.792,"text":"謝謝主席。我請部長,還有我們全序部。好,請部長跟次長。蘇委員好。恭喜你。部長,我們政府是最大的僱主。廣義的公務人員全部都是被它庇護的。"},{"start":6151.199,"end":6178.934,"text":"政府是最大的僱主,但是所有的行政單位要組工會都反對。包括我們消防員要組工會,包括我們的警察要組工會,都一再反對。我這裡要肯定我們的勞動部,勞動部一直以來用我們的勞基法這種霸王條款,"},{"start":6180.419,"end":6208.946,"text":"所有的僱主、所有的民間單位如果聽到勞基法都聞風喪膽大家也要怕死你們的處罰又那麼的重所以民間現在照我看起來勞動部真的是規範得非常好啦那你們現在的退休也不錯現在用四萬五千八四五八零零嘛將來說要調到六萬二嘛會不會"},{"start":6225.851,"end":6239.616,"text":"公務人員一年少一趴少一趴少到現在我的提案啊我的提案就是那個警察跟消防隊員要比照軍人的所得替代率高一點要把他恢復"},{"start":6240.495,"end":6252.097,"text":"現在降到現在已經降了7、8%了有的很多都到樓地板了所以我覺得公務人員的將來的退休撫恤的權利會逼得不夠賣"},{"start":6253.869,"end":6281.445,"text":"但是不信我們勞保,勞保今天在執行勞動部,可是勞動部的潛力不止於公家單位的所有員工。所以今天問你是問假的,問爽的而已。對不對?要做一個工會,你怎麼乞乞歪歪,什麼都不要。到底是,中鋼、中油、中華電信都有啊。那為什麼我們政府當最大僱主的,要組個工會,有那麼難嗎?"},{"start":6284.116,"end":6306.07,"text":"全序部回答一下主要那個跟蘇緣包括我們的工人員的體制他相關的環節工人任用法啦工員服務法啦什麼退休法什麼這麼多那他的人事法規你就很壞了啊不會啦我們老人為國兼趨然後入中獵池那個有什麼了用"},{"start":6307.312,"end":6313.514,"text":"每天幹的事都在做亡羊補牢的事情。你們對你們僱員的權益比較屬勞動部、比較屬勞基劃。這真的是我都看下去了。我們就協商內容給他擴大、參議門檻給他降低。以後怎麼再擴大、再降低我們可以再談。"},{"start":6337.245,"end":6363.854,"text":"年輕的警察、年輕的消防隊員,我常常跑基層,幾乎天天跑基層,大家都叫我叫我,大家都希望有工會來替我發聲。老的可能比較沒有衝擊,但是這些年輕人不一樣。我跟你說,會住不住,會遭料料,往後又欺負人,往後的行事又管,"},{"start":6365.268,"end":6388.135,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員"},{"start":6394.315,"end":6395.957,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6417.095,"end":6433.674,"text":"公務部跟那邊的那個協調也非常好嘛,所以我再一次的肯定,我們部長,我們勞動部,但是勞動部這一塊都沒我們的,要怎麼處理,你就給同櫃的好了啦,樂觀其成,來做工會,有什麼人勒,部長。"},{"start":6438.194,"end":6441.697,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6461.957,"end":6485.988,"text":"只是說你要用什麼一個組織的形態去保障它而且重點是實質的內容啦我覺得那個法可能一個形式但是實質的內容能夠達到保障的目的我覺得這比較重要啦那因為像中鋼 因為它現在已經民營化它基本上不是工人業大部分都是國家的擁有的嘛但是基本上它不是工人業"},{"start":6487.609,"end":6490.011,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6508.806,"end":6512.449,"text":"候議員,工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事項有什麼幫忙解決?候議員,工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事項有什麼幫忙解決?"},{"start":6531.994,"end":6544.883,"text":"我們朱次長我每次看到每次去攻擊每次去參加這些這些這些叫做因公的死亡的啦受傷的每次去家屬都是血裂的痛控訴"},{"start":6546.457,"end":6561.978,"text":"我們都覺得怎麼會有這樣幹的我到國外去看人家就講一個當兵當了10年然後到外面去找工作他軍中那10年的年資跟外面找工作的年資是可以合併的"},{"start":6563.444,"end":6582.173,"text":"我們在臺灣當兵當了19年沒有20年就沒有月退然後19年之前全部歸零然後給你一個什麼退休什麼挖革金一點點錢然後到外面去找工作從頭來你不就要很拚命說你都會住20年以上19年、18年就歸零"},{"start":6587.737,"end":6615.08,"text":"現在就這樣,每天常常都在接陳秦斗,就是這樣。所以這國安部在騙百姓,政府在騙百姓,因為國安早就可以合併了,這個是天經地義的事情,他們絕跡破,好像感覺沒什麼,沒什麼,沒什麼,有什麼辦法嗎?我說這些都是政府最大的故事,不管是軍人,不管是什麼軍工叫警消,都是一樣。"},{"start":6618.089,"end":6621.053,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」案。"},{"start":6630.785,"end":6651.976,"text":"你做15年以上就可以擬?15年以上就可以擬部長我再問你中高齡的你的意思就是說中高齡來上班只要顧了他之後就不能隨便辭退他 對不對"},{"start":6653.142,"end":6663.743,"text":"對。不能用65歲為界限。對。65歲為界限。那所謂不能隨便持貴他事用各種理由還是用65歲是一個上限?"},{"start":6665.583,"end":6684.219,"text":"之六十五歲是一個你得啦就是說他如果滿六十五歲你可以強制他退休那你也可以繼續嘛所以他其實這個規定當時候是在保障勞工在六十五歲之前不會被任意的被退休啦"},{"start":6685.981,"end":6688.966,"text":"但是如果你優於勞基法以65歲,我要繼續做,主法也覺得你這個員工我聽說你經驗很好、技術很好,你要繼續。"},{"start":6696.34,"end":6708.152,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12屆委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案："},{"start":6718.823,"end":6733.809,"text":"我們中高齡高齡者就業促進法當時候就是突破這個限制就是說高齡者這個高齡者他回聘他可以訂定期契約但是你不可以把他聘了你說過兩天你說你滿65歲不能隨便那你說那個那個那個要優惠130%150%那這什麼意思"},{"start":6742.856,"end":6747.562,"text":"財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部"},{"start":6758.696,"end":6772.78,"text":"經濟部主要是經濟部的案子那財政部跟經濟部共同來研究那這個中小企業發展台這個案子已經上禮拜經過這個大院有審查那案子目前現在就是交由黨團協商所以你說要求的130、150都有可能嗎目前行政院的版本是150那我們如果要求200可以嗎"},{"start":6785.294,"end":6800.604,"text":"目前大院有很多委員的版本那目前就是正在跟經濟部還有在跟在黨團協商這樣好因為我在美國齁我在那個達拉斯看到那個shuttle bus開shuttle bus的我問你幾歲啊?他說七十八歲七十八歲就在塞shuttle bus我看他這樣用用啊"},{"start":6809.289,"end":6837.52,"text":"之所以美國七十八個還在開車,美國還在服務的,日本也有,三千也七八十個,所以這個只要他的體力夠,我們又那麼缺,專業人員那麼缺,這些人都是我們可以用的,所以現在醫生七十個還在看病,所以沒有什麼退休年齡,我們勞動部要加油,公務員這邊你要加油,手要伸進去,"},{"start":6838.76,"end":6867.589,"text":"以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,我們接續請王以明委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。"},{"start":6873.223,"end":6877.835,"text":"王委員好部長好部長你辛苦了最後一周我們還是討論重要的"},{"start":6881.096,"end":6905.052,"text":"公務權益問題我們常常在看這些消防弟兄出生入死但是我們對於他們的權益保障真的是不能只是今日功績明日忘記當每發生一件悲劇的時候政府的官員大家都會說我們要進一步再來保障這些消防弟兄的權益"},{"start":6906.072,"end":6920.551,"text":"但是時間過了之後你就會看到大家並沒有提出更好的辦法所以這是為什麼我們看到有一些消防弟兄他們不斷的上街頭訴求他們要組工會"},{"start":6921.592,"end":6935.683,"text":"除公會就是因為他們覺得他們現行的權益沒有獲得保障他希望改善的事項並沒有全部到位我們可以看到這麼多的過去10年重大這些災害"},{"start":6936.664,"end":6962.086,"text":"有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任"},{"start":6962.711,"end":6972.438,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":6988.188,"end":7007.844,"text":"如果說台灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的"},{"start":7008.404,"end":7025.842,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 都應該要去做的。」所以我先問一下這個剛剛部長你有提到嗎你個人是贊成他應該要有團結權的但是現在是怎麼去修的問題那到目前為止你還是認為應該放在公務人員協會法嗎"},{"start":7028.584,"end":7050.278,"text":"除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?可以到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委﹑朝鮮今天"},{"start":7050.998,"end":7054.499,"text":"), 委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7075.026,"end":7085.384,"text":"獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":7085.822,"end":7087.344,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7109.705,"end":7114.97,"text":"這是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎"},{"start":7118.747,"end":7140.184,"text":"我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題啊。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是曾毅權的部分,罷工的部分。曾毅權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內盡量給他放寬,而不要倒到外面去。"},{"start":7140.925,"end":7145.366,"text":"公務員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,如果有些都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務員就失業了。"},{"start":7160.111,"end":7188.711,"text":"但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算如果公部門不同意還是不同意"},{"start":7189.211,"end":7192.658,"text":"主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在台灣可不可以用嗎?"},{"start":7203.592,"end":7220.857,"text":"你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎"},{"start":7222.722,"end":7229.148,"text":"我問一個問題你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎我們沒有沒有對話我認為這件事情是需要對話的"},{"start":7243.956,"end":7261.77,"text":"校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局來是啊是"},{"start":7262.21,"end":7278.523,"text":"是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。"},{"start":7279.517,"end":7304.762,"text":"你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄"},{"start":7305.262,"end":7305.762,"text":"),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員"},{"start":7334.654,"end":7361.354,"text":"如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到的是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查這件事情就先放著"},{"start":7362.875,"end":7379.415,"text":"否則,如果你們覺得放在公務人員協會是一個解方的話,方案老早就該提出來,不應該放那麼久,你知道嗎?如果你今天到委員會來端一個很好的方案,把這些消防弟兄訴求的很多在協會這邊多數可以解決,"},{"start":7380.376,"end":7404.901,"text":"我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權序部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的"},{"start":7406.377,"end":7434.195,"text":"這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題"},{"start":7435.009,"end":7445.417,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":7463.41,"end":7463.51,"text":"除兩年：一、"},{"start":7481.806,"end":7484.549,"text":"人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7500.228,"end":7502.029,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7520.379,"end":7529.204,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":7548.925,"end":7557.631,"text":"然後給消防弟兄更好的保障。謝謝。好,謝謝主席喔。那請我們部長喔。"},{"start":7578.454,"end":7607.053,"text":"好請許部長土委好好部長今天我們是審查處理這個工會法嘛那我們今天國民黨也有提出很多的版本那針對我們放寬消防員組織工會那當然因為最近桃園還有屏東發生了幾場的大火也讓很多的消防人員死傷慘重所以消防員他們自己因此也組織了消防員"},{"start":7608.093,"end":7627.834,"text":"公作權益促進協會那也在去年10月9號凱達格蘭大道也舉行了國殤日的晚會呼籲我們政府要開放消防員得益組織公會那我們國民黨黨團對這個消防員組織公會我們也都是支持那本席"},{"start":7628.554,"end":7652.33,"text":"當初也有把當作政見之一那針對我們要修正工會法第四條跟第六條放寬消防員組織工會那其實這也不是新議題喔那據我們瞭解其實在第八屆國會的時候民進黨的立委就也提過相關的版本要放寬消防員組織工會那這個今天喔可是我們今天好像只看到"},{"start":7653.11,"end":7675.811,"text":"國民黨的版本立委版本跟黨團版本還有民眾黨的版本好像沒有看到民進黨的版本據我們了解我們當初這些提案連署的委員當初是李議員來連署那裡面有很多的委員也有即將高升總統府秘書長的還有我們三位現在也在我們衛環委員會"},{"start":7680.475,"end":7697.55,"text":"μη競黨應該也是支持的才對啊那我們針對我們針對我們這個實質討論我們整理了有關於全序部跟人事行政總處還有勞動部我看了一下你們反對的觀點我們整合了一下好像"},{"start":7698.511,"end":7717.266,"text":"μη反對的不外乎就是消防員跟政府有公法的職務關係還有肩負公共的利益不宜罷工還有我們目前你們好像希望用公務人員協會法只要把這個協會法來優化就可以處理是不是這樣子這個報告委員就是這個也經過跨部跨院的討論主要是公務人員"},{"start":7726.8,"end":7750.352,"text":"主要是警消人員第一他是公務人員的身份第二個就是他的工作牽涉到公共利益所以不反對他們的權益應該要保障本來就應該保障他們的團結學也應該要支持那只是說是不是因為是公務人員大家一體適用不要有切割警消人員另外用一套法"},{"start":7751.372,"end":7773.681,"text":"其他都依照法案沒有我倒覺得我現在我倒覺得我們針對消防員的部分因為我覺得當初這個針對消防員的部分民進黨政府過去也執政8年我們剛剛講之前民進黨很多立委都是支持那我們衛環委員會裡面也很多民進黨立委是支持那這8年來我認為如果"},{"start":7774.361,"end":7800.78,"text":"民進黨執政這些我們這些民進黨的立委如果想要過應該那8年沒有過不了我們剛從105年到113年最後只有在112年10月30號有提了這個協會法那這協會法會提出的原因就是因為我們消防員都跑上了我們凱達哥安大道國殤日晚會在10月9號那個上去陳情"},{"start":7801.54,"end":7810.34,"text":"候來我們才推出這個協會法可是我們看到這個協會法推出之後後來看起來還是不了了之沒有繼續再討論沒有繼續再進行啊"},{"start":7815.327,"end":7831.264,"text":"議員,其實對於警消人員的一些權益的主張政府是很重視的。只是說大家要用什麼路徑去達到他保障的目的。目前認為說不管在體制上法制上"},{"start":7834.747,"end":7859.707,"text":"公協法會比較適當我這邊也是建議啦因為我們看一下我們教師啊教師都可以組工會為什麼消防員不行我們看看他身份法律屬性他也是公法上的職務關係那針對他的法律保障還有保障法規我們消防有消防法協會法那教師有教師法"},{"start":7861.829,"end":7883.978,"text":"其實早在馬英九政府的時候那時候就讓教師組工會所以我也同意消防員來組這個工會但是跟教師一樣我覺得就是列入不得罷工其實教師他是屬於廣義的工人但是他跟消防員的工人是不同他是屬於聘任關係啦"},{"start":7886.719,"end":7909.189,"text":"這兩個在身分上還是有區別希望我們今天消防署署長也有來我針對希望我們還是要為我們這些消防員來多爭取他們的權益因為我們認為像教師都可以組工會消防員看起來也可以組工會我們這要把不得罷工我覺得列入我覺得這應該是可行的"},{"start":7910.169,"end":7924.078,"text":"除此之外,我希望署長及部長在此方面為我們消防員多幫忙。部長,我再請問一下,我們針對我們試用期的約定,這部分我想請部長看一下,這個試用期的約定,我們看一下,"},{"start":7934.765,"end":7950.771,"text":"勞基法的施行細則勞資雙方依工作特性在不違背契約誠信原則下自由約定勞工與適用期制相關勞動權益與一般受僱勞工並無不同。那這個我想請問一下部長這應該是我們勞動部勞動關係司發布的訊息沒有錯吧?"},{"start":7955.56,"end":7957.141,"text":"獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎"},{"start":7975.52,"end":8003.08,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8004.332,"end":8016.883,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文"},{"start":8032.055,"end":8046.622,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 並沒有禁止適用期。我請問一下,居然勞動部勞基法也沒有禁止適用期,而且我們也有講適用期的約定表示適用期並沒有違法。"},{"start":8048.063,"end":8063.398,"text":"候議員,這個勞基法是最低的規範啦。你只要憂與勞基法,你要違反規定都可以約定。但是勞基法的規範,權利義務,勞資雙方通通要遵守。對,對,對。好,所以我們勞動部"},{"start":8065.78,"end":8091.494,"text":"並沒有禁止適用期而且我們看這個約定就可以知道期間的勞動條件就要符合勞基法對不對對嗎所有約定都要符合勞基法這沒有問題嘛所以在這個母法勞基法的規範之中我們如何訂定就算適用期彼此雙方訂定也不能違反勞基法所以也不能低於最低工資對不對"},{"start":8093.336,"end":8108.217,"text":"對嘛不能低於27470所以在勞基法的規範之下你不管做什麼約定都不能低於勞基法最低薪資27470所以假設我們今天提出我們勞基法的規範"},{"start":8110.37,"end":8125.322,"text":"假設我們今天提出勞基法新增草案條文適用期間之工資除其勞動條件差異而另行約定不得低於應聘工資之百分之八十之外"},{"start":8125.942,"end":8141.329,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．"},{"start":8152.933,"end":8176.932,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":8181.915,"end":8195.121,"text":"獅用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定本法也就是勞基法所以剛剛你有講不管我們怎麼去訂定就是不能違反勞基法的規定但是你現在"},{"start":8196.141,"end":8199.642,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":8213.507,"end":8234.614,"text":"老公的專業能力才是捷運發行之重要的因素,而不是用一個期間去規範。就算80%,重點是用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定,也就是再怎麼樣訂定就是不能低於勞金法的二七十七年。"},{"start":8236.853,"end":8241.615,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »:"},{"start":8258.123,"end":8258.303,"text":"獎金獎金獎金獎"},{"start":8273.459,"end":8276.541,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8297.756,"end":8302.581,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8321.599,"end":8338.703,"text":"候選人的薪資他一進來你就是看他多少能力多少條件他的專業在哪裡你就給他薪資不是說所謂的一進來一畢業通通我通通給你打八折這樣可以嗎部長我要說明的是這個訂定是不是"},{"start":8339.404,"end":8342.546,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。厲 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。厲"},{"start":8369.495,"end":8373.439,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":8393.676,"end":8398.521,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8415.633,"end":8443.148,"text":"這個修改條文黨後面這個對呀就不能低於二期四期年所以報告部長我今天要講的重點是這個條文都可以討論但是我不知道為什麼我們的衛福部準次長在還沒有討論的時候他就在4月30號勞動節的前一天直接說目前勞基法不允許試用期所以剛剛部長我有問你喔"},{"start":8443.988,"end":8470.285,"text":"牢機法並沒有不允許試用期喔而且這個他說變相低薪逃脫牢機法最低薪資規定我覺得這根本就是認知作戰我們提這個條文還沒有討論而且牢機法從頭到尾並沒有不允許我們的次長準次長居然還沒有上任就在網路散播這不實的謠言直接說牢機法不允許"},{"start":8470.905,"end":8478.294,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":8490.568,"end":8516.588,"text":"國民黨團提出這個叫三勞工的薪資根本就是根本就是斷章取義所以我今天重點就是這個條文我們的原意根本就不是這樣部長你很清楚就是不能低於27470居然說我們提的版本是要到達22K可是我也沒有看到我們任何主管單位出來做這個澄清所以我今天希望部長也能夠讓"},{"start":8517.729,"end":8522.991,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件及其其其其其其其其"},{"start":8555.645,"end":8562.452,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案。」案。"},{"start":8883.254,"end":8886.578,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來我們請鄭天才委員致詢。鄭天才委員致詢。"},{"start":8902.281,"end":8915.63,"text":"正委好部長好財團法人援助民族文化事業基金會也就是野民台野民台是其中重要的業務他們是要從現在"},{"start":8917.551,"end":8925.374,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8937.244,"end":8959.333,"text":"除了很久開車或是騎摩托車,當然開車比較少,大概都騎摩托車。這是從辦公室搬到那邊是要這麼長。當然基本上他們現在大部分員工都住在台北市比較少,台北市住在汐止或是基隆的地方更遠。"},{"start":8960.82,"end":8987.719,"text":"另外就是裁判法的研究民族研發展基金會他們是要從羅斯福路一段要到桃園大延期的領航路四段一樣騎摩托車的話都要一個多小時如果他從住的地方來去的話也會比較遠"},{"start":8988.869,"end":9006.165,"text":"所以這樣的一個情形之下這個會涉及到員工要調動工作的地點根據勞動基準法第十條之一的第四款第五款"},{"start":9007.42,"end":9026.471,"text":"調動工作地點過遠,雇主應以必要之協助。第五款考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益。因為這個是政府的政策。從台北市搬遷到桃園,明年底就會進駐到那邊。"},{"start":9029.918,"end":9048.243,"text":"請問一下勞動部這邊對於員工的潛意因為畢竟他們也是第一次都不了解這個相關的這些到底應該怎麼樣的協助是不是能夠提供相關的這些案例我會請關西斯王司長這邊針對這個部分來協助員工因為這勞基法規定得很清楚"},{"start":9056.705,"end":9059.649,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹑事由：一、審查��"},{"start":9072.654,"end":9072.674,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":9088.88,"end":9093.082,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9112.312,"end":9113.753,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":9134.017,"end":9147.756,"text":"另外就是說這個我們經濟委員會上次在審查這個中小企業發展條例這裡面特別針對這個中小企業增顧一定的人數"},{"start":9148.857,"end":9153.199,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9178.456,"end":9185.58,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹖第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹖"},{"start":9205.751,"end":9215.806,"text":"兼顧的應該是勞工了好不好協商的時候你們提供寶貴的意見謝謝接下來我們請王正旭委員質詢"},{"start":9231.511,"end":9240.942,"text":"謝謝主席。有請勞動部許部長。還有請正署陳永利副署長。"},{"start":9244.542,"end":9244.702,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":9264.255,"end":9287.16,"text":"那要解決這種緊急狀況尤其是對社會有重大傷害的可能性的時候其實我們都很期待警消能夠趕快到現場把問題解決當然他們權益一定要受到重視的同時也必須要努力去保障他們該有的權益這個應該是社會的共識也是政府要努力去促成的部分"},{"start":9287.92,"end":9306.607,"text":"中高零就業當然也是我們希望針對可以提高國家競爭力持續來關注這都是一直本席很希望能夠從這邊得到大家的回應大家一起來努力不過我們往下一張發現昨天發生一個事情"},{"start":9307.547,"end":9327.878,"text":"積聾勤人無怨居。積聾勤人無怨居就是我以前還沒有到國會來工作之前每天上下班的地方。所以這個地方發生的這個命案對我來講感受特別的深刻。依照目前媒體看到的就是好像有一位來台兩個多月的"},{"start":9328.938,"end":9329.639,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9344.648,"end":9347.931,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」"},{"start":9363.285,"end":9366.707,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件 》案件 但警方人員到現場的時候事實上已經發生了不可逆的這種結果。"},{"start":9382.863,"end":9401.819,"text":"對我們來講不管是任何的民眾臺灣民眾也好或者是外國的人甚至移工到臺灣來工作我們都不希望發生這樣的命案所以在這個個案上面我們看到的就是語言的障礙造成通報的困難"},{"start":9403.401,"end":9424.856,"text":"除此之外,如果從勞動部我們現在假設這樣的狀況出現,是一個移工的時候,又碰到這樣的語言障礙,那我們有沒有什麼好的方式來解決這樣的困難?警政署這邊有沒有共同可以促成讓這樣的過程不至於再發生的可能性?"},{"start":9425.455,"end":9454.868,"text":"包括委員其實針對這個部分我們跟警政署之間本來就有協助的機制他如果像移工如果他打1955給我們我們就會有專人那個包括英文甚至泰語剛剛像這個是太極老公泰語都我們會有通訊人員來協助那甚至如果是110的話我們還有三方通話的協助機制所以這個應該是有目前是可以有"},{"start":9455.384,"end":9456.347,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":9464.616,"end":9486.665,"text":"這個案我來跟委員報告這個案是當可能報案報案者他可能顧及他自己的語言怕所以他不是第一時間跟警方報案就剛剛的過程剛剛委員有描述過那其實剛剛證實說我們勞動部講的其實我們警政使跟勞動部平常就有做他們的協商的機制就是一般我們"},{"start":9488.406,"end":9515.66,"text":"公的諮詢保護專線就是1955,那如果說他第一時間打給1955,1955會通報我們。如果他打給我們,如果說像可能他講地方他們的方言,我們可能因爲警署中心不一定會通,那我們可以透過打給1955形成三方通話,其實就可以完成整個瞭解狀況跟報案的程序。所以目前的機制是可以,只是說可能就"},{"start":9516.62,"end":9533.888,"text":"稱呼委員剛指導的要我們要加強來先導包括移工包括我們的同仁等等能才能夠應用的比較鮮熟以上是所以聽起來機制是有的方法也有的可是就是執行的時候難免會有落差嘛吼那包括說現場的需不需要同意人員"},{"start":9534.728,"end":9536.229,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":9563.882,"end":9581.408,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":9581.548,"end":9582.309,"text":"​​擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​"},{"start":9597.799,"end":9624.656,"text":"那保障這個警消權益剛剛已經提到了嘛那我們再往下看其實我們也知道這個警消組工會的訴求一直以來都是很關心他們希望得到社會的認同同時也可以去讓他們的這個訴求可以得到更多的重視不過我想主要的核心問題還是權益必須要被政府部門能夠重視而且要提供完整的保障"},{"start":9625.896,"end":9654.862,"text":"早上已經有很多委員提過相同的問題那再請教就是說在落實這個保障方面目前我們政府部門做了哪一些的努力那個報告委員其實那個消防署這邊其實針對警消人員的一些訴求消防人員的訴求他們其實都有一些計畫早上他其實也有說明那個可能署長這邊來說比較清楚是不是請署長上來說明一下好"},{"start":9658.598,"end":9678.453,"text":"委員好感謝委員關心消防事實上消防在這兩年有蠻大的一個進展一個部分就是消防法修正目前新的消防法修正包括治安專章已經報到憲政院5月10號報到憲政院應該最近會報到大院來審查當然對於權責的部分就是法律權責已經處理了"},{"start":9680.354,"end":9705.215,"text":"對於保職安的部分我們對於消防法專章的處理這個已經列入進去有10條的條文另外為了讓這個不是光是法律免執行免所以我們提了一個5年的忠誠計畫針對消防警員的職業安全當然職業安全絕對不是一觸可及就透過輔導團隊跟限制的消防警員怎麼互動這是我們在努力的地方"},{"start":9705.995,"end":9717.322,"text":"人力的部分也是我們充實的一個努力方向目前特考班我們預計要招收每年1000位專科學生請專學生會400位讓這個部分來做處理當然裝備器材聽測這個部分我們有23個計畫正在執行當中那應該是在未來幾年會有差不多200億的薪水會投注在我們消防裝備器材聽測這個區塊"},{"start":9729.168,"end":9758.317,"text":"當然消防營運的訓練專業能量這也是我們目前在訓練中心執行的地方跟委員請他做回報謝謝好謝謝所以我們除了讓他安心以外也要請他們放心政府各個部門尤其主管部門都有努力的在幫他們爭取各種權益的同時也能夠讓他們當初訴求有關於他們的這個放假啦或者是過勞啦或者是相關的這些權益都會得到相關的保障"},{"start":9758.797,"end":9787.295,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":9787.295,"end":9816.483,"text":"除此之外,我們所看到的我們本來補了307位或者是需要的量反而是越擴大隨著這個需求反而是在補足的部分不僅沒有減少反而在擴大當中這個部分勞動部目前有沒有更好的方案或者是有相關的研究已經有結果讓我們知道未來在補足的部分有哪一些更好的措施可以讓這個整個市場的需求可以更為完整"},{"start":9818.123,"end":9837.58,"text":"瓜委員,我們這個改善擴大缺工的這個就業方案大概執行就是到6月底。6月底執行完畢,我們大概會有一些成效來檢討,也跟跨部會看後續,針對這個缺工的議題要怎麼再來做一些有效的改善。"},{"start":9839.201,"end":9863.926,"text":"除此之外,因為我們這個擬具草案其實有設定一些條件還有薪資條件所以有些部分比如說他們原來說有多少缺口可是當你開出薪資條件的門檻的時候有些他就沒有來但是無論如果他願意來的我們都有積極協助我們都三倍四倍人數能夠讓他們來挑選勞工來協助當然也配"},{"start":9868.647,"end":9872.832,"text":"〔主席〕 最後我們看到的就是希望把這些成果能夠做個檢討我們再往下看到最後一張"},{"start":9886.027,"end":9906.038,"text":"就是也期待勞動部能夠適時的提供相關的資訊讓這個政策的目的可以達到更好的成果那也希望把相關的資料提供給本席做這個參考謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝王振旭委員接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢"},{"start":9913.861,"end":9916.922,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,有請許部長。黃委員好。部長好。部長我先請教就是我們勞動部在這個彈性育嬰流脂停薪在這個月的9號開始試辦。那我想請教就是說我們這個彈性育嬰流脂停薪我們有說"},{"start":9938.952,"end":9940.393,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":9965.855,"end":9993.013,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 條件是比我們勞動部所規定的還要寬鬆的。」這個你們有去做一個統計嗎?他是說之前64家有比較寬鬆的嗎?就是比你們勞動部原本所規定的還要再寬鬆一點。有嗎?有。有。你們本身有去做統計?是。就是我們現在是原則五天嘛。原則五天。那也有比五天還少的吧?有。"},{"start":9994.133,"end":10013.241,"text":"對所以目前目前有是那現在我們這個申請喔就到5月底之前都可以了是就是有有意願的企業單位我們還是歡迎他來申請示範是那已經提出了64家我們統計是有優於就是比那五天還少的是那個企業單位好"},{"start":10014.401,"end":10035.308,"text":"除此之外,我可否要求你們在這四份當中,比如說到年底,你們應該也要再去做一個統計。整個勞工申請的狀況,或者是意願,或者是整個大家覺得說這樣好不好用。我覺得你們到年底的時候應該要再去做一個統計。"},{"start":10037.209,"end":10037.229,"text":"), 委員"},{"start":10049.13,"end":10051.632,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":10077.91,"end":10081.532,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":10104.747,"end":10126.562,"text":"議員包委因為現行的規範本來就是每30天發放一次那因為我們之前的規定就是因為考量到說有些是因為我們現在是期出發給我們都是每個月都是期出就發給錢發錢給他那有些會提早復職或者他會有零頭因為6個月不會剛好"},{"start":10128.423,"end":10136.706,"text":"除此之外,假設6月只停了三天,時間就到了。所以當初就想說為了檢證辨明,因為還要追遣也麻煩,就檢證辨明。所以那時候就是未滿一個月,我們仍以一個月計。現在我們可以這樣子彈性的來...報告委員,因為現在是事辦,事辦的我們還要觀察,"},{"start":10155.332,"end":10161.131,"text":"對未來事辦的結果我們來檢討也聽任各界一定該修我們就修所以你們你們現在是要怎麼計算"},{"start":10164.002,"end":10167.144,"text":"兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃"},{"start":10192.381,"end":10203.589,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 規定是這樣的,事辦其實就是希望能夠瞭解勞工的訴求在實務的現場,所以我們就想說等事辦完畢以後再來檢討會比較好,當然就是說這個法令跟我們實際的應該要"},{"start":10211.015,"end":10216.016,"text":"除此之外﹑委員王育敏等21人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案》案, 並擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案》案, 並擬具"},{"start":10236.34,"end":10255.006,"text":"議員,我接下來請教外送平台。我看到勞動部有在3月18號有特別發文給這兩個外送的平台。甚至我們司長也有親自拜會這兩大平台。"},{"start":10256.506,"end":10274.589,"text":"對啦,那就是說可能就是說道德勸說這個外送費用的透明化或者是明確化啦那我想請教就是說你們在3月18號發文給這兩個這個外送平台那他們有回覆了嗎?還沒有,是。"},{"start":10276.148,"end":10292.394,"text":"報告委員,到目前為止他們還在研議,不過我們在5月29號要開下一次第六次的平台會議,那我們會在當天就是這個議題會列我們當天很重要的一個討論的一個事項。 是,那如果他都一直不回覆你們勒?"},{"start":10293.034,"end":10320.279,"text":"公務員報告我們有提到因為保障他們的新報酬的方法途徑如果他覺得用這個方法不是對他們來講不是最理想的做法因為都有公會在我們是雙方就平台的溝通他們可以提出另外一些什麼樣的做法跟比較具體的一個確保我們外送員的報酬能夠比較穩定和預設性然後當場勞資雙方可以來做一些溝通再找看比較適合的方法"},{"start":10320.879,"end":10331.646,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第"},{"start":10351.279,"end":10353.36,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​"},{"start":10377.071,"end":10398.581,"text":"我們一定會保障衛生委員的權益政府該有什麼態度就應該是要展現出來我們是希望大家能夠是和諧的去把問題解決當然如果相應部裡該有的政府的公權力就要拿出來我相信未來新的部長也會支持接下來我是不是請消防署署長好不好"},{"start":10406.125,"end":10432.756,"text":"組長好,在這幾年當中,消防員為了打火造成傷亡的事件非常的多。我相信很多的消防員他們最期待就是說第一個你裝備一定要齊全,所有的裝備一定要齊全。有的打火兄弟他一進到火場也許"},{"start":10433.896,"end":10434.157,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":10456.334,"end":10478.038,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心消防事實上真的要達成安全要三個層面剛才委員講到第一層面就是裝備、器材、車輛、廳舍這個部分閒置員已經准了23個計畫那未來幾年應該差不多有200億的經費會投注在整個在B線所以你逐年要多少會撥入五年差不多200萬每年至少差不多400萬的經費40萬的經費會投注在這個五年多少200億"},{"start":10484.159,"end":10504.571,"text":"五年兩百億對目前都已經核定的所以這個部分在中備汽車車輛這個部分已經在執行當中那另外就是要達到管理的一個層面所以我們現在消防法修正了增加我們消防法的治安專章那這個案子已經報到縣政院那最近會報到大院裡面來做一個審查"},{"start":10505.632,"end":10510.298,"text":"), 委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10525.856,"end":10526.277,"text":"公務員陳菁徽"},{"start":10546.398,"end":10557.831,"text":"除不由上而下來雙重做這方面建制是比較能夠達成這樣的目標那也不是一個說要成立工會或者要成立協會這個就可以達得到"},{"start":10558.251,"end":10567.139,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":10584.113,"end":10605.556,"text":"當然就是說我們希望消防員的這個權益要保障就剛剛署長講的你五年現在要投入200億可能就是說整個裝備或者是整個設施就投入那當然就是說我覺得第一線的這個人員的這個現場火場當中的這個這個判斷就我覺得也非常的重要"},{"start":10605.896,"end":10621.903,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":10622.143,"end":10625.586,"text":"μη維亞有職業安全文化的概念那消防營運的養成教育目前會調整成一整年對技術的一個教育訓練目前這個制度跟做法已經確認"},{"start":10645.043,"end":10645.363,"text":"μη竹芳委員"},{"start":10672.752,"end":10679.616,"text":"主席,各位大家午安,是不是請我們許部長還有,先許部長好了。好,請許部長。另外好。保證,可能是最後一次,不然還有禮拜三。"},{"start":10691.162,"end":10699.569,"text":"主委先跟你祝福啦。不過我今天還是要先來談一下這個健全就業安全的這個體系的問題。我是要談這個救保法。"},{"start":10710.555,"end":10729.36,"text":"從2003年開始上路施行到現在經歷了兩次的很重大的危機就是這個2008年的金融海嘯還有這個COVID-19的疫情那勞動部認為這個就業保險法這個是不是有需要擴大適用對象的檢討的必要"},{"start":10730.782,"end":10739.058,"text":"除此之外：立法院第16屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":10740.134,"end":10763.308,"text":"我跟您討論第一個就是擴大納保對象。那我們講這個是因為這個就業保險的立法一旨一開中民意就講勞工的就業技能促進提升勞工的就業技能促進就業保障勞工職訓及失業一定期間的基本生活所以這個很重要"},{"start":10764.068,"end":10784.357,"text":"那我們看了一下從這個就業保險投保單位及人數統計月報一百一十三年二月底納保人數總計七百三十萬九千三百二十九人但是呢比對人力資源運用調查"},{"start":10786.818,"end":10789.799,"text":"獲獲者人數計有930萬6千人,其中私人僱用者827萬8千人。就保法依法法定涵蓋的這個對象涵蓋率大概88.29%。"},{"start":10809.603,"end":10812.105,"text":"則在這種狀況顯示受僱者仍然有11%是被排除就業保險安全網之外而且我們看經歷了COVID-19的疫情透過這個特別紓困條例提供的就業安全的措施你們已經有經驗了就是說其實你們"},{"start":10829.153,"end":10856.127,"text":"除了自營作業者和65歲以上的勞工,這一個缺失在COVID-19的時候,你們變成說無法救濟他們。我們那時候那個補貼是針對那個無一定僱主跟自營作業者職業工會。但我記得那時候只要他有投入債保,有加債保的都有用。您的補貼不是用救保啦,您是就業安定基金啦。"},{"start":10858.773,"end":10862.596,"text":"僱用安定措施是來自於就業安定基金,那我現在講的是這個救保。"},{"start":10876.505,"end":10879.966,"text":"我第一個跟你討論就是要來擴大納保對象第一個我們就先從這個要納入所謂的經濟依賴型的自營作業者經濟依賴型的話如果從西班牙制定了一個自營作業者法它有訂定一個經濟依賴型的自營作業者"},{"start":10903.571,"end":10921.911,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第17期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及"},{"start":10923.533,"end":10925.274,"text":"Carlos Alonso Alonso"},{"start":10939.128,"end":10957.802,"text":"μη在COVID-19期間其實也有看到一些困難一些問題當時就在講說有必要要檢討將自營作業者納入就業安全網才不會在COVID-19期間發現制度沒有辦法保障接不起他們所以才用這個安定基金去接"},{"start":10958.602,"end":10963.846,"text":"兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆"},{"start":10976.636,"end":10983.362,"text":"而且這個擬具的這個期限或者是說承諾簽署個人將積極尋求這個就業接受合適的工作並參與公立就業服務機構提供的特定獎勵資訊職業訓練和就業推介為要件所以這個部分部長或者是我們部裡面有什麼看法"},{"start":11003.094,"end":11005.895,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案 》案 。"},{"start":11020.52,"end":11040.265,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11040.605,"end":11065.162,"text":"第二個擴大納保的對象就是跟我們今天講的有關的當我們在講說要取消掉這個法定的強制退休年齡然後不得這個強迫退休65歲以上的勞工那這種狀況裡面我們看到推動中高齡在就業如果要持續的開發65歲以上的這個勞動力那我們也應該要提供就業安全的保障啊"},{"start":11065.902,"end":11067.084,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11081.583,"end":11083.684,"text":"﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":11098.993,"end":11109.2,"text":"除此之外：立法院第16屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利"},{"start":11118.786,"end":11118.806,"text":"公視勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸"},{"start":11147.645,"end":11173.436,"text":"報告委員其實這個部分我們現在日本是我們那時候討論就是說像日本他是只發給一次性的失業給付他就不是六個月這樣子然後像韓國你說在已經請領老保老年給付之後對那他如果失業我們就給他一次性的給付那韓國是怎麼樣那韓國他是"},{"start":11174.652,"end":11177.416,"text":"兼具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":11191.613,"end":11218.933,"text":"獎項獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":11219.724,"end":11248.495,"text":"但是我們我現在要告訴你說部長14天等太期之前你要請你事業給付的第一關就是你是非自願性的離職的而且他本來就要到公立就業服務機關辦理求職登記日他已經有去辦理了那你還叫他等14天我是說現在因為你覺得14天沒什麼可是對很多人來講這14天的這個生活衝擊很大的也有"},{"start":11249.456,"end":11250.057,"text":"因為他第一個"},{"start":11252.298,"end":11276.647,"text":"他是非自願性離職的啦。非自願性的離職然後在這種狀況裡面失業給付本來就要發揮的就是急難、救急他是一個及時雨那要幫助勞工度過這個難關那更何況 ILO促進就業和失業保護的公約第18條第1項他有講喔謝謝"},{"start":11279.568,"end":11292.739,"text":"如果成員國的立法規定在全失業的情況下是有在等待期期滿後才能開始支付津貼但這一個等待期不得超過7天"},{"start":11295.041,"end":11302.586,"text":"而我們現在的就業失業給付的等待期14天比ILO建議的還要嚴格如果你去參考日本的僱傭保險的失業津貼非自願離職多數不可抗力的理由離職離職後日本也是7天當然日本比我們更優渥因為他們還有自願離職的給付"},{"start":11325.097,"end":11350.222,"text":"自願離職的給付但我們今天暫時就不討論這個所以這個部長這個有沒有檢討的空間呢?包括委員我們其實內部有討論吶吼那認為說應該是要再縮短再縮短比照ILO很好標準吶好那可以做得到那我再講第二個要降低的這個不合理的給付的規定就是要降低啟動延長失業給付門檻現在失業給付是6個月嘛"},{"start":11355.946,"end":11368.719,"text":"五歲以上還有身障可以自動門檻能低的大概延長給付到九個月。當然我們現在規定是最長是所有個月,但條件比較嚴苛。但是45歲以下的,"},{"start":11372.963,"end":11374.904,"text":"條條件比較嚴格,就是你的這個舊保失業率再加上中央主計機關發佈失業率連續4個月為降低才能領到9個月,或者是你要領12個月的話必須舊保失業率"},{"start":11398.059,"end":11402.363,"text":"再加上中央組織機關發布失業率連續8個月沒有降低這個外部條件都符合了才能讓你延長領到9個月或12個月所以"},{"start":11415.556,"end":11417.638,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11445.256,"end":11450.478,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11468.806,"end":11483.96,"text":"其始就業保險的給付除了失業給付還有一個其實是很不錯的就是提早就業獎助津貼制度上我們也提供了誘因並不是說你繼續領領月長月老其實我們你早一點的去就業找到工作我們也有津貼嘛"},{"start":11490.746,"end":11519.131,"text":"所以這個東西我們是希望說這個津貼講提早就業津貼也有配套所以你卻刻意讓這個延長失業給付的門檻這麼高讓我們看得到吃不到那也很難發揮就業安定的政策效果因為真的有人真的很難找工作了其實很多因素很多因素那第二個理由是說"},{"start":11520.731,"end":11543.88,"text":"我要跟你討論說,就業保險失業率本身就是一個落後指標。你們要讓它0到9個月角12個月都要看就業保險失業率再加上社會的這個整體的失業率。可是呢,我們要講就業保險失業率是一個落後指標。你們自己在COVID-19的時候,你們自己就深受其害,就知道了。"},{"start":11544.5,"end":11551.024,"text":"我很久以前就跟你們講說這個減班休息無薪假你們這一個門檻要連續三個月就保險失業率要連續三個月達到2.2%以上太高所以你們修正下降到1.1%可是在COVID-19疫情的衝擊下你們現在才發現說連1%這樣的規定"},{"start":11572.677,"end":11581.925,"text":"因為那是落後指標嘛,所以來不及啟動這些受COVID-19衝擊的這些人。所以你們要提這個安心就業計畫,結果你們沒有法源,沒有辦法有錢來給他們,所以你們後來才變成說拿就業安定基金去紓困嘛。"},{"start":11594.995,"end":11608.121,"text":"所以你們後來光是就這一點你們也把一趴的啟動門檻也拿掉了所以你們就改由僱用安定措施的這個諮詢會議去期待這個幾%的規定比較有彈性嘛那同樣的我們也是希望你說延長失業給付這樣子的這個條件和門檻也應該要更有彈性你一直把它綁在"},{"start":11620.407,"end":11634.411,"text":"你都知道就業保險率是落後指標而且是來不及反映也來不及承接這一些失業的勞工所需要的生活上的衝擊所以是不是也應該要一併的檢討這樣的一個落後指標應該取消而且更應該要彈性化一點那降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻簡單的說啦"},{"start":11646.795,"end":11649.797,"text":"事業給付6個月要延長到9個月延長到12個月你現在的指標和門檻應該要檢討了這樣子可不可以謝謝委員這個部分我們來檢討我覺得應該要檢討你要走了你要交給下一任的部長對沒問題業務單位業務單位在這裡啦業務單位要記得喔在這裡承諾的喔"},{"start":11671.912,"end":11699.85,"text":"六十五歲以上要納保經濟依賴型的這個自營作業者也要納保然後這個要縮短失業給付14天變成7天然後要降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻就剩四個好謝謝委員會重點交接好謝謝好我們委員會持續監督謝謝林淑芬委員接下來我們請牛許廷委員"},{"start":11709.211,"end":11712.497,"text":"謝謝主席,部長有請。好,有請許部長。"},{"start":11715.834,"end":11738.262,"text":"委員部長午安這個我們就直接進入主題今天兩個部分一個是因為剛剛有委員幫我們試圖在解釋這個勞基法修正的一些東西我們做一些釐清第一個要請問這個部長這個試用期如果法制化的話會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現報告委員我們的這個一目解勞基法我們的薪資"},{"start":11739.582,"end":11747.949,"text":"就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便是用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾對不對好謝謝喔 不會對不對"},{"start":11754.985,"end":11778.287,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是"},{"start":11778.507,"end":11794.735,"text":""},{"start":11795.195,"end":11823.749,"text":"規定薪資2萬6千4那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬規定薪資2萬6千4國中應問輔導老師他4天就離職了所以適用期長度大概是不止4天但是一樣應聘薪資4萬規定薪資2萬6千5技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等因為這個看表現決定業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬規定薪資2萬5這些案例也有可能不多但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司他們存不存在"},{"start":11827.989,"end":11845.388,"text":"候議員,因為本來適用期勞工法是沒有規定,但是我們就是說你雙方同意,勞工雙方同意,我們也尊重,但是你所有的適用期勞工的保障都是要"},{"start":11845.908,"end":11846.308,"text":"除此之外﹑"},{"start":11862.401,"end":11862.881,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":11882.806,"end":11906.037,"text":"主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為"},{"start":11910.35,"end":11929.923,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11930.063,"end":11944.897,"text":"在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工啦我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了"},{"start":11945.117,"end":11945.237,"text":"​​國民黨團擬具"},{"start":11960.262,"end":11986.209,"text":"沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個東西拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議"},{"start":11987.995,"end":12006.834,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":12007.795,"end":12025.39,"text":"除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長"},{"start":12029.225,"end":12047.631,"text":"​​ 現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月可能九個月對不對不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用期一年啊半年啊這不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝"},{"start":12049.412,"end":12066.789,"text":"第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的瞭解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下"},{"start":12071.783,"end":12086.474,"text":"委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的內容啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的"},{"start":12089.587,"end":12113.88,"text":"公司可能很明顯簽個契約有些是不是講一講那講一講萬一兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嘛對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嘛第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資遣費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有"},{"start":12115.171,"end":12139.747,"text":"法律沒有我剛講過啦他有沒有寫這個他都按照勞基法都要給他的資遣費都要給啊來這個判例就是一個沒有給的沒有給的案例嘛因為這個判例講的是華航這個講的是華航安理講說這是勞僱契約的前期階段不適用勞基法法定宗旨是有如果他們實質的約定內容是職業訓練那是就尊重就是怕掛羊頭賣狗肉啦是嘛"},{"start":12141.368,"end":12163.187,"text":"所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛啦我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊"},{"start":12164.139,"end":12181.69,"text":"按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權益義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的"},{"start":12184.552,"end":12209.687,"text":"來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦我是覺得他有些觀點"},{"start":12210.928,"end":12228.628,"text":"對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好"},{"start":12229.409,"end":12229.429,"text":"拜託。"},{"start":12258.552,"end":12275.042,"text":"公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎"},{"start":12277.193,"end":12296.8,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":12297.2,"end":12323.45,"text":" »:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用用組工會的方式來來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加擠的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪廷委員"},{"start":12326.851,"end":12335.318,"text":"正正前正正前正正前委員不在盧憲一盧憲一盧憲一委員不在我們請劉建國委員質詢好謝謝主席有請部長好請許部長"},{"start":12347.83,"end":12375.817,"text":"副總,今天是你最後的一天了。在這邊的最後一天備詢了。我還沒有講完啦,你都這麼緊張。我說今天是你在委員會接受備詢的最後一天。你也是中華民國在職最久的勞動部部長。有沒有什麼樣刻骨銘心的感言要跟委員會簡單做一個闡述一下。給你一分鐘。"},{"start":12377.168,"end":12395.298,"text":"我是很謝謝有這個機會來擔任這個全國勞工兄弟姐妹的大工頭,大工頭。我也努力把握這個每一天的機會來能夠為勞工多做一點事情,但是當然沒有辦法做到"},{"start":12396.579,"end":12401.244,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12416.515,"end":12431.286,"text":"好,謝謝部長。我會珍惜這個委員會最後一次。我還是要再提醒部長,在新屆部長交接之際,有一件事情一定要非常慎重來面對,就是移工失聯的問題。在2月16號,我們台運就用這個簽署視訊的MOU,然後3月6號衛環也排了這樣的一個"},{"start":12439.873,"end":12442.435,"text":"具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具"},{"start":12454.326,"end":12468.362,"text":"除此之外,我們要怎麼去面對這個問題?這個絕對沒有辦法門戶過關,因為部長已經要到任的,所以先任部長來克布隆瓦尼要面對這個事情。但是我知道你們有在準備就是要修這個救護法,針對美岸的15萬到75萬來裁划,"},{"start":12472.686,"end":12498.757,"text":"改為提高為美能計劃然後提高非法媒介罰款3倍從10萬到50萬的罰款提高到美能是開罰30萬到150萬加重這個刑責目前的草案應該是這個方向對不對沒有錯嘛那等於這個修法的重責當然會落在新部長的身上但是我現在要請教部長這個法案何時會送進來"},{"start":12502.039,"end":12502.099,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12522.626,"end":12545.647,"text":"移工的私人原因包括經濟因素、勞動條件還有固執不當的對待等完全也不全然是非法仲介的問題這個大家都非常清楚你看這個2022年的美國國務院的人權報告中也提到臺灣移工問題提出相關警訊移工來台工作常因背負高額的仲介費面臨剝削有抵債勞動的風險"},{"start":12547.489,"end":12571.486,"text":"所以移工來這邊是賺錢而不是來還債條件不然這樣就會跑嘛那你看日本還有韓國也朝向這個放寬移工的市長的限制然後我想如果屆時在國際市場做比較到時候臺灣要引進更多的移工可能會有一定程度的挑戰跟難度嘛所以這部分以部長的經驗要交接給新的部長要好好來面對這個事情"},{"start":12572.266,"end":12594.483,"text":"這其一啦齁那其二我為什麼要用一點點時間來針對這個事情齁因為等一下我們要回到這個主題就工會法齁台灣不只不僅是這個移工有風險存在連當台灣的工人員齁都有基本上的過勞風險齁這個大家都非常清楚不然你看台灣失聯八萬五千名的移工要怎麼查"},{"start":12596.206,"end":12611.918,"text":"我給一個數據請內政部還有這個移民署相關觀點就上台吧時間這樣比較不會去移民署結束到112年你看啦移民署到112年11月30號統計移民署專勤隊共計是576年576人在查緝全北8萬5千多名移工這個要怎麼查沒有移民署那應該有內政部的人吧"},{"start":12626.764,"end":12632.326,"text":"內政部 人事處國境大隊到去年10月31統計是839人要負責國家促進的業務國境大隊在2019年離職率超過8%"},{"start":12652.401,"end":12662.768,"text":"疫情過後旅客回升,去年的歷史率已經高達12%,將近50%的成長。為什麼這個內政部應該都要掌握嘛,對不對。然後,警察報退休潮。照發現在今年555人申請。那原警講一句話,不練戰不如歸去。他原本的編制是3084,目前實力的原理是2799,結果今年就有555人這個申請退休。"},{"start":12682.81,"end":12708.071,"text":"然後當然不是申請退休他就能表示可以退休嘛對不對他要一公認員退休之前撫恤法的第17條規定任職滿25年即可申請退休警務署還是內政部有講到彰化縣的警局有多少的員警單純是滿25年以上他其實還能再繼續撫恤但是他也選擇退休有掌握嗎"},{"start":12712.499,"end":12728.297,"text":"包括委員這部分我真的不是很了解但是剛剛提到的數字其實他們最近這幾年提出來大概都400到500之間但是真正到退休大概就是100人以內其實這個是有相當的差距"},{"start":12729.208,"end":12756.679,"text":"為什麼每次都會這麼多人提出要退休?那是不是跟我講的嘛?就是滿25年就可以提退休嘛,對不對?對。一般外勤啊,內勤是不...但是2021年是368人提出啦。2022是433啦齁。2023去年是525嘛。那今年喔?今年已經達到555。結果實在持續往上嘛。那你們有掌握這個狀況是什麼狀況嗎?是不是成為他們所想的不練戰不如歸去啊?"},{"start":12758.948,"end":12782.258,"text":"什麼原因嗎?特別是在做無聲的抗議,然後你們也視若無睹。這個警察能力是不足啦。你知道現在在固守我們立法院的這些員警的缺額大致上是保持多少嗎?你們知道嗎?"},{"start":12783.363,"end":12803.888,"text":"其實這個車餌目前全國警察的車餌大概4000多名。人力一直不足一直補不到位。這個主要是因為容性量的問題。但你人力不足的時候你排班會不會出問題?會嘛對不對?目前來講我們...你敢說沒有問題?你要講清楚喔!這麼多單位喔!你俠館這麼多單位喔!"},{"start":12806.513,"end":12808.154,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":12824.791,"end":12837.808,"text":"委員,我想這一部分目前我們應用的辦法是其實行政院就我們警察目前的治安狀況有特別增加4000多名的預算援友那這個原來是重點你們補了嗎?還是沒補嗎?還是補不到嗎?4000多援友已經補了"},{"start":12841.693,"end":12850.156,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文"},{"start":12861.039,"end":12866.844,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12891.871,"end":12919.282,"text":"就是全部的現金的一個狀態嘛對不對你請休息一下好不好那有請法務部的參事我們目前面對到這麼大量的詐騙的這個案嘛司法能力嚴重不足那法務部也爭取到11年到14年分4年要增加司法能力600人嘛相關細節我就不講了檢察官50人檢察司務官250人然後搭搭搭也包含華警50人我請教一下目前的人力"},{"start":12920.832,"end":12939.692,"text":"人力到位狀況怎麼樣目前的人力分四噹嘛對不對到明年就四年滿了嘛對不對對阿這些人現在補齊了怎麼樣應該都還是在進行中還是沒有幾成嘛幾成600已經已經達標幾成了剩下一年半的時間"},{"start":12941.85,"end":12957.278,"text":"委員是不是這個可以容我回去有這個所以你沒有掌握嗎好那我再請教一下我們在去年在司法法制委員會有幫檢察官來爭取這一個檢察官助理100名應該到位了嘛那法務部自己在提出要再爭辯150名確定了嗎"},{"start":12963.051,"end":12988.387,"text":"這個部分是檢察司的業務我想我回去可以請他們再提供比較精確的數字給委員所以你不清楚好謝謝那就請回我現在還是要講人力的問題不管從警察人力不管從司法的人力不管從那個移民所專勤隊的人力五百多名要去面對八萬多名的這些逃逸外勞怎麼去面對內政部內政部"},{"start":12994.845,"end":13012.277,"text":"大家在關注警察能力、消防能力在補充速度之上坦白講都是杯水車薪啦出門的啦好那今天這些不管是警校的人員在提出相關的這些團結權還有我們的協商權還有相關的這個爭議權不給你們給了遇到人力遇到排放問題能協商嗎"},{"start":13026.604,"end":13042.882,"text":"人力的部分的話就是請那個移民署這邊檢討完之後如果真的確實有人力的需求我會跟行政院來做支持來爭取謝謝全序部今天有來嘛全序部有個報告實在是太精彩報告四個字送給你叫做哩哩浪浪"},{"start":13047.196,"end":13074.674,"text":"我去年在市委會特別提到說當你這些事情都不好好溝通然後一個群衆部變成一個僵硬部的時候這事情會越來越糟糕你不站在基層公務人員的角度跟他們的這樣的一個遇到這樣的樣態然後去積極的去協調、協商找出一個大家可以共識的一個可遵循的方式來往下走下去那到時候問題就會越來越大了"},{"start":13075.413,"end":13091.902,"text":"所以我那天有特別提到,我不曉得那天是部長,我在全巡邏是部長,我問他嘛,你當逼著這些基層工人員跟你魚死網破的時候啦,他也不管什麼法律啊,他也不管什麼規範的,他就要跟你拚了。請教他,你怎麼處理?我們還是從這個協商權啊,讓他多一點協商權。協商權我剛才就講了嘛,當人力不足的時候可以協商嗎?"},{"start":13103.415,"end":13126.229,"text":"這擬修方式是可以協商的嗎?擬修可以協商?消防署警政署海巡署認為現在人力不足想進行擬修協商這個擬修到底是可以協商的項目還是不可協商的項目?你確定是可以協商的項目嗎?可以新的法是可以新的法嗎?還未修完之前是不行嘛對不對?我們已經放進去了好啊當人力不足的時候怎麼協商?就是協商啊看看是增援還是怎麼樣就協商"},{"start":13133.359,"end":13155.712,"text":"你教我怎麼協商好不好?這個團隊、這個單位卻有10%到20%的能力,排班就排不出來,他要跟你協商,你怎麼協商嘛?你教我一下啊,怎麼計算、怎麼溝通、怎麼協調、怎麼下紀錄、怎麼協商?你的修法心的法律裡面,怎麼依據協商?"},{"start":13159.431,"end":13163.253,"text":"沒有辦法不要在那邊隨便亂呼嚨啦不要再哩哩啪啪啦去年問的時候也是這樣你們部長答詢我也是這樣今天你代表來還是答詞這樣可以協商啊吹喚的例子說怎麼協商還是可以協商請教你怎麼協商嘛這實在讓我生氣啦欸謝主席"},{"start":13189.468,"end":13194.931,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。我們禮拜三會來處理。接下來我們請陳培宇委員。好,謝謝主席。那有請勞動部,謝謝。好,請勞動部許部長。"},{"start":13214.196,"end":13233.454,"text":"陳委員好。好部長如您剛剛所說這是您在委員會最後一次接受質詢那等一下我所要跟您討論就麻煩您交接給新任的部長好嗎?關於這個中高齡就業的部分我今天比較多力氣想要關懷在關於女性就業的部分我相信有部長你一定知道"},{"start":13234.835,"end":13247.241,"text":"​​ 目前很多事實的現況是大部分的女性在生了小孩結了婚之後其實是照顧家庭為主等到孩子大了家庭照顧責任變輕了之後他們想要再回到職場上絕對絕對面臨非常非常多的困難所以我看到在勞動部的就業服務站你們有所謂的求職媒合可是我要說相關求職媒合到底如何開發對於這些"},{"start":13259.667,"end":13260.207,"text":"),委員陳菁徽"},{"start":13287.671,"end":13287.891,"text":"主席"},{"start":13305.693,"end":13305.833,"text":"獎勵及獎勵機制。"},{"start":13326.731,"end":13345.963,"text":"聽起來您確實知道目前最大的困境就是剛剛說彈性工時還有我之前就已經跟部長說過的遠距工作其實也是很多新時代的女生她們在求職的時候她們希望職場的雇主給予的彈性你現在也看到了其實再回到職場上很多中高齡的婦女她們也需要這樣的彈性就是彈性工時遠距工作我再次彈掉彈性工時遠距工作"},{"start":13348.664,"end":13353.766,"text":"台灣過往在招募國際人才的時候非常多相關勞動政策其中最為很多國際專業移工他們所詬病的就是台灣的遠距工作跟彈性工時非常非常的不友善那我們來看一下你們的勞發署在去年你們以桃園為立陶宗廟你們成立了一個所謂引法人才資源中心那你們甚至提出了一個2023到2025年中高齡者還有高齡者就業促進計畫"},{"start":13376.713,"end":13377.534,"text":"​​擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案〉案。​​擬具"},{"start":13403.507,"end":13427.688,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":13427.688,"end":13449.565,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":13449.705,"end":13449.845,"text":"),委員陳菁徽"},{"start":13469.614,"end":13470.234,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":13485.282,"end":13487.604,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。 »:"},{"start":13502.938,"end":13524.188,"text":"因為現在有非常多新型態以大代小這件事情真的已經在很多地方產生了還不錯的化學效應那我想你們不管是跟其他跨部會或者是國發會也請他們提供相關的案例作為勞動部非常重要的政策工具有這種成功的案例我就請各部會能夠來協助我只是舉其中一個案例謝謝部長謝謝主席接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":13536.745,"end":13563.041,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請勞動部部長還有消防署的署長。好,請許部長跟蕭署長。黃委員好。部長好、署長好。因為接下來有關於消防員組工會的事情,可能勞動部跟消防組這邊圈著,都有一些觀點跟立場必須要表達,所以請兩位一起上來。"},{"start":13564.295,"end":13583.527,"text":"我先請教一下消防署的署長因為前兩天有人跑到我地方的服務處去然後拿了消防署的縮帖來針對台灣民眾黨黨團提案我們支持消防員組工會的這個事情拿了一個縮帖到我的服務處來說"},{"start":13586.767,"end":13615.079,"text":"因為消防署的立場是不贊成消防員組工會所以要求我們撤回我們的提案這件事情是消防署授意的嗎怎麼會有人做這種事啊是跟我們報告感謝我們關心這個部分就是我們有跟縣市來做瞭解那縣市是有18個縣市是不同意入工會那有一個縣市是同意入工會但是限制罷工權"},{"start":13616.099,"end":13635.321,"text":" »:有三個機關是沒有回應,是採取保留態度。 »:對不起,你沒有回答我的問題啊。這是消防署授意的嗎?這是消防署授意的嗎?這是消防署授意的嗎?請你回答問題。這個是消防署授意的嗎?我們是跟委員報告,就跟縣市,請縣市跟委員。對不起,你沒有回答問題啊。"},{"start":13636.604,"end":13665.68,"text":"有人拿著消防組的縮帖到我地方服務處來我們支持消防員組工會然後結果消防組我不曉得欸是關很大嗎我第一次聽到有部會啊要求立法委員撤回提案署長你會不會覺得太誇張啊還是你也支持這樣做是我們尊重委員的權責跟委員你們有尊重委員的權責嗎拿著一個縮帖來說建請委員能夠撤回修正提案"},{"start":13666.946,"end":13683.418,"text":"這是不是消防署的縮帖還是有人偽造變造文書說清楚啊?所以你也同意嗎?消防署要求委員撤回提案非常不妥對不對?消防署可以做這種事喔?"},{"start":13690.117,"end":13693.984,"text":"消防署可以做這種事喔?要求委員撤回提案?白紙黑字就這樣寫啦!消防署可以這樣幹嗎?"},{"start":13701.67,"end":13726.711,"text":"署長請表示意見不要站在那邊不講話是剛剛委員跟委員報告這個文字是不妥我們必須跟眾委員的意見處理我們繼續看消防員組工會這一件事情我們基層的消防弟兄喊了非常久了如果現行的制度下我們在第一線冒險犯難的消防弟兄覺得"},{"start":13728.049,"end":13753.46,"text":"他們可以獲得應有的保障而不是每一次大火以後我看到那些消防員流著眼淚在送他們那些本來一起工作一起冒險犯難的弟兄今天這個訴求不會浮上水面也不會得到那麼多人民的支持"},{"start":13755.411,"end":13772.731,"text":"從各國比較的法制當中有非常多的國家是支持也贊成消防員可以組工會的那當然我們目前的政府相對是保守不贊成消防員組工會我的理解有沒有錯誤 署長"},{"start":13774.249,"end":13798.502,"text":"是跟委員報告我目前朝向幾個部分的一個進展是方便對不起請您針對問題回答就好了現在的政府支不支持消防員組工會組工會這是一個方式組協會也是一個方式所以你們支不支持他們組工會我們現在是朝向組協會的方式來做好這樣子的立場是目前520以前舊政府的立場沒有錯嗎"},{"start":13799.875,"end":13800.635,"text":"對吧?"},{"start":13800.635,"end":13810.558,"text":"是整個執行方向跟執行措施。 是是是,這個在520以前目前陳建仁內閣是不贊成消防員組工會,沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":13810.558,"end":13819.881,"text":"我們朝向更廣的方式來處理消防人員失業安全問題。不管啦,你用什麼樣的形容詞形容嘛,你不贊成消防員組工會這幾個字就講不出來嘛。"},{"start":13822.222,"end":13848.457,"text":"你當為署長你不贊成就不贊成嘛大聲的講這就是你的政策立場嘛現在我的問題很簡單啊不贊成消防員主公會的這個政策立場新的內閣新的政府也支持嗎請問署長目前是這個方向我們是在努力對我的意思是新的政府新的內閣支持嗎呃我想政府的政策是不是政策應該是一次性的"},{"start":13849.437,"end":13870.504,"text":"所以你的意思是新的政府也不贊成消防員組公會是這樣嗎?應該是這麼講。消防營業的安全這是政府重視的一個項目。怎麼樣達到消防營業的安全這是目前的措施。我上禮拜才從美國參加五十五個國家的消防事務會議。對不起,我在問的是新政府的態度。你不知道就說不知道嘛。你在那邊扯你去美國幹嘛?我有請你報告你去美國回來的心得嗎?"},{"start":13876.127,"end":13896.754,"text":"新的政府支不支持你知道就知道不知道就不知道扯那麼多幹嘛我現在不清楚還請部長是高委員我不清楚你不清楚嘛是您即將要卸任勞動部部長了嘛過去在這個質詢台上我為了要去檢驗蔡總統六大勞工保證我也對你提出過是"},{"start":13898.238,"end":13916.503,"text":"獅度的質詢但站在人民的立場監督行政部門施政本來就是我們立法委員該做的事情我相信部長不會把它當成是個人的事情好那您馬上要離任勞動部部長了不管如何不管如何您在這個位置上過去這幾年"},{"start":13917.483,"end":13920.965,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13939.741,"end":13965.238,"text":"委員我是這樣子認為說消防員的權益我們是應該要保障他們的訴求我們一定要重視所以今天這個問題主要是在於過去可能有些權益或訴求方面沒有受到充分的一個重視所以才會有這個組工會的訴求站在勞動部的立場我們一定是支持他們的團結權"},{"start":13967.159,"end":13970.32,"text":"), 委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13991.809,"end":14013.091,"text":"我大概了解您的立場了啦因為也是您最後一次備詢嘛我也沒有辦法逼出你講出你的唯心之論啊那只是我覺得有一些事情齁我們現在在公共政策的討論上面敞開心胸看一看南韓在2021年的時候他們就開放消防員組工會了嘛"},{"start":14013.672,"end":14026.522,"text":"他們開放消防員組工會的時候講得非常的清楚為了要符合國際勞工組織關於解設自由等相關規範南韓的國民議會通過了公職人員工會法修正草案"},{"start":14027.438,"end":14052.179,"text":"民定消防人員教育人員也可以組織公會我們是希望台灣在保障我們消防弟兄的這一件事情上面他們會有這麼強烈的呼聲而且持續了這麼久顯然就是目前既有的機制沒有辦法滿足他們權益保障的要求所以這些消防弟兄的心聲我們要虛心的聽進去"},{"start":14053.3,"end":14064.456,"text":"如果說一直反對他們組工會的話那你相對應的是那你有什麼更好的辦法而且能夠讓這些消防弟兄相信你們所提出來的"},{"start":14065.512,"end":14090.948,"text":"也可滿足他們的需求。如果沒有辦法做到這件事情的話我們還不讓那些消防弟兄透過工會團結起來去行使他們的權利我覺得說不過去啦我這段話不僅僅是跟在場的署長以及即將卸任的勞動部部長分享其實我也是公開的在跟社會對話也希望新的政府可以聽得進去以上謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":14095.558,"end":14097.178,"text":"接下來我們請張智倫委員質詢。張智倫委員"},{"start":14120.98,"end":14146.11,"text":"感謝部長跟署長那因為今天這個有關於主公會的事情可能會麻煩到署長跟部長來回應所以請兩位一起上台首先要請教我們署長有關於這個統計最近10年有43位的消防員員殉職而且尤其大家非常清楚屏東陽明大火事件造成4位消防員殉職這大家都歷歷在目"},{"start":14146.79,"end":14175.99,"text":"現在總共有10死111人受傷的悲劇啊那請問署長在這個陽明大火之後這個消防組做了哪些努力尤其那天我記得在這個很多的這個抗議的這個訴求裡面第一個就是要精進這個化學雲的部分尤其是化學物全流程管理的這個部分請問一下這個署長的這邊有沒有來精進哪一些部分然後跟各部會的討論的目前的狀況是如何"},{"start":14176.63,"end":14199.361,"text":"感謝委員垂詢。針對化學院部分在明陽大火以後,院的政務委員事上有組成專案會議,怎麼樣把化學院裡面的資訊充分分享。當然對業者的提供、提報在工廠法、輔導法裡面已經列入修法的內容,消防法這個部分也列入修正的內容。"},{"start":14200.141,"end":14225.418,"text":"謝謝署長,我簡單給您請教第一個就是說這個資訊的即時性是不是已經有確認清楚因為當時這個陽明在這個救火的時候發現他的有害物質超量30倍啊因為我們常常會擔心啊很多時候有些企業登入禁區的資料後來都沒有更新啊這個超量30倍的部分有沒有做動態式、滾動式的一個調整你們是怎麼樣去跟各部會去做協調的"},{"start":14226.018,"end":14241.705,"text":"此部分在《工廠輔導法》已經列入修正的內容對於違法的部分會做處理就從儲存量的一個情形當然在化學目前這些資料都會上源那上源以後這些資料會分析到大概多久確認一次"},{"start":14242.105,"end":14269.384,"text":"而目前就修正過以後我要確認一下就是修正過以後工廠輔導法的一個內容應該是六個月或者應該是六個月我再確認一下再跟委員回報所以本席是不是拜託署長拜託建議一下如果六個月才建那說他們的自律的那個工廠自律的方式怎麼做是不是說他們只要有更動的時候多少多久之內要去把這些有害物質去做一個登錄的動作好嗎"},{"start":14270.057,"end":14298.82,"text":"是 這個部分我們再來跟經濟部來做一個確認 謝謝好第二個要請教這個署長的部分最近消防法有修正修正的部分有幾個有一個重點就是說他們針對剛剛有提過就是如果剛剛署長這邊有講到如果企業部改善減災應該停工的這個部分在消防法第42條第三項這邊的部分還是法令的修改的部分沒有看到修改還是得停工"},{"start":14299.781,"end":14304.064,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":14317.112,"end":14345.37,"text":"應停工。我想這個部分對於比例原則上面會出問題所以在整個消防法修正目前已經5月10號報到行政院4月30號已經報到行政院接下來會送大院來審查那再請委員再跟我們做指導謝謝好那到時候大家再做細部來去做討論看如何才可以讓這個基層消防員最重視的一些比較有害的物質是要如何定時去做一個處理定時做一個提報的部分"},{"start":14346.01,"end":14364.292,"text":"好,那今天最重要的一點還有一點時間,針對工會法的修法我們是為了要保障所有消防人員的權益那我請教一下剛剛很多委員也提到說其他國家也有這個組工會只是針對爭議權的部分來去做限縮這個部分有沒有辦法來協助?"},{"start":14365.848,"end":14388.649,"text":"公務員報告目前的方向是朝向修正消防法列治安的專商這個第一部分公務員報告那另外就消防人員這方面協會主要是結社權跟協商這個部分在目前的協會法的修正已經納入這個精神那協商的項目也擴大我想這個部分我們會配合全市部修正的內容來做一個處理"},{"start":14389.65,"end":14395.693,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":14411.22,"end":14432.619,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":14433.25,"end":14457.389,"text":"各位報告我想的確消防員所面臨的是非常高風險的工作身心的壓力都是非常大我想這個部分當然整個勞動環境怎麼樣去把它優化然後對他的健康安全在平常有怎麼樣能夠來做協助我想我們應該是要跨部會一起來努力好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝張志倫委員"},{"start":14463.676,"end":14485.092,"text":"李燕秀委員請消防署署長我順便也先請一下呃人事總處的呃對不起我請全序部的朱政次朱次長好請小署長跟朱次長"},{"start":14486.351,"end":14505.208,"text":"署長,我想今天一整個早上諮詢了這麼久,成為剛才幾位委員所提出來的對於消防局的同仁、消防署底下所有的全國的同仁組工會,你們是不支持的,你們是傾向處理公務人員的協會,對不對?"},{"start":14511.728,"end":14533.461,"text":"對,今天如果不是我們召委今天排這個議案我不知道這個案子還要拖多久消防署的底下的所有同仁過去這麼多年來幾次大火殉職我相信這是全國人的傷痛也是消防弟兄看到每一次事件過後都是今天攻擊政府明天就忘記"},{"start":14534.69,"end":14560.169,"text":"如果成立公務人員協會真的這麼重要我覺得就不會拖到今天上一屆的立法院早就已經可以處理完了但是為什麼到今天你們公務人員的協會法還沒有出來你今天還在跟我講說我們不支持消防同仁組工會我們還是希望在協會法裡面來做處理這是大家所憤怒的地方"},{"start":14561.522,"end":14587.118,"text":"所以我覺得我相信你非常清楚現在所有的消防同仁想要申請調動的狀況其實非常非常頻繁勤務最多的無論是六都大家都想調到鄉下地方或是城鄉差距比較大的地方我想你非常清楚原因在哪裡你也非常清楚"},{"start":14588.131,"end":14600.964,"text":""},{"start":14601.587,"end":14617.653,"text":"所以無論是我們相關集同仁的結社權、協商權、裡面未來怎麼去處理大家所關注的這幾塊我希望競速的在一個月之內你可以告訴我們立法院有具體的做法否則立法院就按照我們後續我們的權利我們來處理好不好"},{"start":14622.356,"end":14643.135,"text":"除了這是我的建議你可以請回我因為我今天還有其他的議題要請問朱政次朱市長我接下來就要跟你討論我們派用人員簽調彈性的問題大家都知道在民國五六十年的時候五六十年代的時候我們國家為了推動國家的重大建設我們的行政機關"},{"start":14644.116,"end":14654.306,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第"},{"start":14659.651,"end":14684.028,"text":"但是派用人員的條例已經在104年廢止那這個派用人員我們有九年的落日條款也就是在今年6月19號落日之後所有的派用人員就必須留在他原任的地方或等到他離職為止就不能再增加任何的派用人員那他最終如果還留在職位上他只能平調"},{"start":14685.009,"end":14687.411,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14707.569,"end":14711.872,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14728.763,"end":14755.371,"text":"鬼道建設在任用捷運局常常會跟臺北市政府捷運局要人但是這些人其實我們本來原意是不希望這些派用人員去影響到全國其他的機關但是在臺北市捷運局來說他就是一灘死水想進來念捷運專業人想進來我如果進來臺北市的捷運局他未來可能也升不上去因為55%的人都是在一起主管而且他只能評調他永遠是留在這邊"},{"start":14756.431,"end":14783.376,"text":"所以針對臺灣市政府擬具這些問題朱正智有沒有什麼樣解決的方案可以處理因為畢竟軌道建設在臺灣我們目前東西向未來的發展南部我們現在中南部也在做軌道建設那這些問題有沒有什麼比較具體可以處理的方向跟方式是 報告李委員現在就是我們在因為這個法的規定蠻硬的啦"},{"start":14784.577,"end":14788.741,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14800.013,"end":14800.073,"text":"​​擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":14815.368,"end":14821.553,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14838.746,"end":14854.053,"text":"獎項獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":14854.193,"end":14855.434,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼"},{"start":14877.295,"end":14896.54,"text":"條條例當時是不希望他到處跑然後影響到別人的權益但是他卻卡死了在台北市政府捷運局他用人能夠吸引更多年輕人有能力的專業進入軌道建設的這個領域裡面所以這個問題怎麼處理可不可以在兩個禮拜以內給我一個檢討的方案"},{"start":14903.803,"end":14912.63,"text":"你瞭解我意思嗎?可以瞭解,我知道。好,謝謝。好,謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢。接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢。好,謝謝主委。有請勞動部許部長。好,請許部長。"},{"start":14929.175,"end":14937.74,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。 您是一個稱職有為有所的部長。給您高度的肯定。那您任內什麼幾年?六年兩個多月。"},{"start":14958.556,"end":14976.836,"text":"μη佩佩有6年2個月對,到519應該是2275天6年中最讓你擔任部長最讓你覺得最有成就感最自豪的一件事我覺得很多事情都讓你覺得很自豪沒有啦講一件就好了講一件喔我是覺得我覺得"},{"start":14978.075,"end":15006.853,"text":"對我來講是災保法老公職業災害保險保護法這件事情是從我2018上任我就覺得這個法倡議了好久那對老公那麼重要然後我們努力把它完成而且謝謝委員會的支持未還委員我們在不到不到一個月把它完成立法真的是所以令你覺得沮喪或者遺憾的一件事情"},{"start":15008.404,"end":15013,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":15013.626,"end":15042.551,"text":"〔廣東話〕"},{"start":15042.711,"end":15043.031,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":15063.9,"end":15077.83,"text":"請教你勞動參與率的問題。怎麼樣高齡的勞動參與率能夠提高?我們的黎明結構跟日本韓國差不多。我們平均,不管是男性女性的平均壽命也跟日本韓國差不多。"},{"start":15078.63,"end":15095.147,"text":"為什麽一樣是這種年齡結構日本跟韓國他的勞動參與率在45歲到65歲以上都比我們高出很多特別是65歲以上中高齡的部分中高齡部分是我們今天要討論的主題你看我們只有9.2%"},{"start":15096.508,"end":15097.848,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":15126.927,"end":15129.554,"text":"對,包委員其實我們現在也是在鼓勵這個高齡者"},{"start":15133.332,"end":15141.661,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 委員"},{"start":15157.236,"end":15165.679,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及�"},{"start":15176.602,"end":15199.442,"text":"除了勞工端要去,勞動部要去,我覺得僱主端這個可能對於高齡的禁用也要抱持開放的態度。所以僱主端你要怎麼樣去禁用中高齡的就業者,你必須要提高主顧的優惠,你這個跨部會去協調,很多是財政部或者經濟部或者相關單位,但是主要還是你勞動部要負責。所以你要從這個政策協調的高度去怎麼樣協調各部會能夠"},{"start":15201.844,"end":15202.024,"text":"議員陳菁徽"},{"start":15224.186,"end":15245.822,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第17次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員"},{"start":15253.328,"end":15253.428,"text":"謝謝委員,感謝。"},{"start":15291.67,"end":15299.592,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":15309.25,"end":15312.337,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 》案。"},{"start":15320.442,"end":15340.31,"text":"主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條"},{"start":15341.97,"end":15353.36,"text":"條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?"},{"start":15356.32,"end":15377.629,"text":"公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說"},{"start":15379.61,"end":15398.856,"text":"繼於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎"},{"start":15405.972,"end":15423.486,"text":"這個可能在條文之間可能之間有一些在實務執行上可能會有產生一些相關聯相關阿文字就是相關阿但是但是他就是矛盾阿那那個來我們再看一下第17條規定所以說"},{"start":15428.005,"end":15443.729,"text":"顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張"},{"start":15457.479,"end":15458.04,"text":"獲得獲得什麼樣的補償損失?"},{"start":15484.421,"end":15508.59,"text":"像地方縣市政府提出申訴之後他如果是有是屬於叫做就業歧視的話認定那這個部分雇主會被處罰那處罰30萬到150萬那如果是他是有那個相關的損失的部分民事訴訟進行的話那看到損失的部分好那再來喔還是說政府收了罰款以後"},{"start":15510.162,"end":15539.701,"text":"​​僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅"},{"start":15540.021,"end":15542.522,"text":" entreprene?"},{"start":15542.522,"end":15558.389,"text":"就是法?報告委員那處罰歸處罰那另外的話如果他有一些那個之前解雇的這個部分的話因爲我們的那個訴訟輔助會有協助那協助那個勞工去他民事訴訟把他的權益爭取回來也是要花很長的時間"},{"start":15562.474,"end":15579.299,"text":"第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料"},{"start":15588.443,"end":15614.604,"text":"議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就是上次我們有討論過,這個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是"},{"start":15615.52,"end":15616.642,"text":"μη施出高途計劃執行成效如何?"},{"start":15629.18,"end":15651.764,"text":"民私高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制不過他其實有產生一些問題尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠所以那個計畫當初就暫停我們就導入到青年就業現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵就是同一工作分工合作的措施"},{"start":15652.324,"end":15680.282,"text":"有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的措施。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事初高屠的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?"},{"start":15681.11,"end":15710.55,"text":"公文包像我們在20條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說因為過去這個民視出高圖的計畫你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有"},{"start":15711.851,"end":15722.164,"text":"重蹈覆轍會不會產生更多的廉價勞工這是我剛剛問你的問題好謝謝委員提醒我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響"},{"start":15722.995,"end":15748.812,"text":"好那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務在設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何"},{"start":15750.599,"end":15776.397,"text":"職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算"},{"start":15778.651,"end":15798.904,"text":"則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些市場協助措施"},{"start":15800.081,"end":15805.866,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":15819.171,"end":15834.931,"text":"議員您覺得這個部分你們這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間因為事實上如果以我們目前尤其是在中高齡一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是"},{"start":15836.493,"end":15857.346,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":15857.886,"end":15862.308,"text":"公務員提出申訴不力處分,罰款約二、三十萬,其餘大多是鼓勵性質。"},{"start":15875.368,"end":15889.82,"text":"僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。"},{"start":15891.041,"end":15905.667,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會"},{"start":15914.691,"end":15916.433,"text":"),委員長,你現在兩位署長應該也都是正當壯年啦。"},{"start":15933.46,"end":15950.974,"text":"有問題嗎?我是壯士代,所以我壯士代。好,但是我想在座每一位我們都會漸漸老去喔。所以千萬不要辜負了這一部很重要的法案的通過以及它背後代表的意義。好,謝謝。好,謝謝韋。好,謝謝陳瑩委員。接下來我們請楊耀委員質詢。"},{"start":15966.617,"end":15986.333,"text":"謝謝主席。主席,我請一下前序部。好,主持長,請。邵委員好。處長好。處長,我們今天最主要有幾個版本修工會法。"},{"start":15988.837,"end":16015.601,"text":"我個人的看法就是大概在挑戰工人員協會法的表示工人員協會法裡面大概有一些規定是有不足還是在實施上有遇到一些什麼困難我這樣子講市長覺得有沒有道理"},{"start":16016.794,"end":16041.915,"text":"協會法現行協會法是在協商的範圍還有組成的那個條件上一個是組成的太嚴一個是協商範圍太窄是現行協會法所以我們這一次在去年10月30號送到立法院的版本就是把協商範圍擴大把那個參與的門檻降低這是目前修正的方向這樣子"},{"start":16042.62,"end":16057.753,"text":"現在我是覺得應該要跟工會法就是這一次一起來討論因為我的理解是這樣子就是工會人員協會法是在規範特別法律關係"},{"start":16062.509,"end":16087.497,"text":"提示裡面的人員的權益保障。那工會法是在保護一般的受僱者的權益保障。我覺得這個是兩個完全不同的體系。可是我們經過幾次修法就把它混在一起了。現在那個"},{"start":16089.946,"end":16114.22,"text":"因為警察、警消人員是根據警察人員人事條例任用的。警消現在可以組協會嗎?現在可以,但是現在只能在內政部了。將來我們有特種協會,就是專門為消防警察設計的。就是你們消防人員就可以自己組了。"},{"start":16115.04,"end":16119.664,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹑事由．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":16137.056,"end":16158.695,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":16159.318,"end":16159.418,"text":"議員陳菁徽"},{"start":16181.365,"end":16183.127,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":16195.912,"end":16212.066,"text":"我怎麼看都覺得假如說教師因為教師原本在公務人員協會法是禁止的對不對教師他不是使用公務人員協會法本來是教師法"},{"start":16213.052,"end":16221.857,"text":"有協會嗎?教師有協會嗎?有教師公會,它是兩軌。接下來這個我就不知道問誰了。警政署跟消防署,誰來?"},{"start":16246.007,"end":16254.693,"text":"副署長現在是這樣子,就是國外呢,國外其實警校大概也有組工會協議的例子對不對?有沒有罷工權?有沒有?全世界有沒有?"},{"start":16273.598,"end":16295.857,"text":"就考試院提到的資料裡面都沒有罷工權。像美國是少數州有條件罷工,英國校方是有比較高的罷工門檻,那其它是限制。多數是限制或者是沒有的嗎?"},{"start":16297.37,"end":16309.435,"text":"那現在是這樣子,現在是我們假如說在工會法裡面讓警消人員成立工會,那他是有罷工權的喔,是不是?"},{"start":16310.726,"end":16327.583,"text":"他有沒有罷工權所以這個部分可能就是我們條文所以我們才會建議用協會法的方式來處理這個區塊比較能夠階段性的進展跟階段性的處理比較有一個方向跟一個處理的一個措施"},{"start":16329.993,"end":16357.524,"text":"是這樣子假如說立法院是到最後是支持納入工會法像我個人我是覺得應該要徹底的修工人員協會法的落實保障工人員的一定權益我個人是這樣子可是問題是現在工會法已經送進來委員會討論了"},{"start":16359.025,"end":16385.828,"text":"然後沒有同時提出勞資正義處理法。勞資正義處理法裡面是明禁教師罷工的。這個還有一個比較詭異的東西就是禁止勞工罷工的項目裡面列了教師"},{"start":16387.341,"end":16412.191,"text":"教師本身就不是勞工所以這個就是整套法律我們怎麼去規範警消人員真的是很辛苦人力不足這個我覺得你們都必須要帶回去趕快做處理的可是直接納入工會法然後不同時修正勞資爭議處理法這個"},{"start":16417.407,"end":16444.978,"text":"萬一行使罷工權,萬一工會法先通過了,老日正義處理法沒有同時跟上,那警消的工會就取得罷工權。罷工期間,警消負責了全國最重要的事項,"},{"start":16446.581,"end":16457.471,"text":"我舉個例子,譬如說罷工的時候發生火災,然後因為人力不足造成的多出來的損害有沒有國家賠償的問題?有沒有?"},{"start":16461.502,"end":16468.17,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":16478.843,"end":16479.163,"text":"除此之外,會有這麼多"},{"start":16507.398,"end":16508.059,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。�"},{"start":16515.981,"end":16517.783,"text":"​​擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":16544.387,"end":16562.437,"text":"兼修的部分今年開始已經很大幅度調整有在調整有在進步我知道今年已經降到剩下124小時去年跟今年都已經降到很大的程度各項權益保障還是必須要我們同步在進行"},{"start":16562.697,"end":16570.881,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件事宜等19人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜等19人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜等19人擬具"},{"start":16591.391,"end":16592.492,"text":"公務人員協會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":16611.167,"end":16639.966,"text":"那太慢現在就只能將錯就錯就是再把不是勞工的反正已經有一個不是勞工的教師納入禁止罷工的行列了可能在工會法修正的同時也必須要把相關的人員的罷工權禁止行使入法這樣子才不會造成國家治安上或者是救災上的空窗期"},{"start":16640.866,"end":16667.656,"text":"好謝謝主席好謝謝楊耀委員本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一陳金輝所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本日會議到此結束星期三上午"},{"start":16668.157,"end":16668.76,"text":"上午9時繼續審查現在休息。"},{"start":16677.525,"end":16682.407,"text":"兩人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":16709.749,"end":16715.474,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案"}]}},{"id":"152471","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152471","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173489b18d538c6583f6ba70ea388d46c21f0861210b3d4118f477e467243de167255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:13:47 - 09:25:15","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":688,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:25:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:13:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":64,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時13分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。在520以前，我想這是最後一次跟您在質詢臺上對話。"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：首先，我要以家長的身分感謝部長這幾年的辛勞，在很多過往的經驗當中，很多人都會說潘部長是最懂國教的部長，也因為這樣，所以在很多的國教議題上，確實看到潘部長有非常非常多、非常積極的作為，例如，我從去年遞補到現在，在國教法、特教法、霸凌防制準則、三聘辦法及性平教育法，其實都可以看得見部長對於國教的關懷。我很好奇，部長在這一段工作時間當中，你自己覺得最有成就感的事情是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員剛才的鼓勵，在這將近七年多來，我算過了，到520是2,645天。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們幫你算過了，是七年多。"],["潘部長文忠：其實在過去這段時間，我們也正面對非常多項的衝擊，108課綱是這些年比較重大的事項，尤其剛才委員談到高中以下這些課程改革要面對未來培養孩子的能力，這個工程非常龐雜。在討論、審議的過程加上有很多各界的參與，包含學生代表，這一次大家確實比較能夠完整地來共同討論，當然也花了很長的時間，包含後續推動。我要跟委員報告最大的挑戰其實是這三年的疫情，看到全世界在面對疫情後，很多學校學生學習中斷的情形，尤其最嚴肅的是入學部分中斷。但臺灣這些年因為中央、地方政府還有學校一起努力，我們幾乎沒有讓孩子的學習中斷，尤其是各項重大的入學考試，我們克服各項困難讓它能夠執行，因為這對孩子未來的升學發展，對家長都是很重大的事。但是因為疫情的變化千變萬化，每一次我們都謹慎以待，還有跟指揮中心擬定特別方案，保障每一位孩子不會因為疫情受影響，甚至他確診了，最後還是能夠讓孩子進場考試，三年的準備不能因為一個疫情影響到他未來學習的發展。疫情是我過去沒有經歷過的，但是跟同仁一起努力了三年，這確實是非常不容易，但慶幸臺灣走過來了。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，我自己的小孩確實也是在疫情那一年正要考試，我印象非常深刻，那天我們考完第一天會考，正在決定第二天到底能不能考，還好教育部和當時蘇院長決定讓我們繼續考完，所以我也印象非常深刻，這是部長剛剛說你覺得最有成就感的事情。但是我們要另外問，有沒有在您任內覺得很遺憾、沒有辦法完成，但是你會願意放在交接清單的前三名跟下一位部長溝通？我覺得這也是國人非常好奇和關心的。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這些年雖然大家都很努力，包含大院教文會的委員，一直在關心學校校安、霸凌等等，包含一些其次的問題，我覺得校園是一個支持孩子學習的地方，可是卻經常有一些個案的影響發生，加上我覺得整個社會環境大幅變化，對孩子在心理情緒、學習上確實有相當的影響，也有一些校園自傷、自殺的個案，這部分我一直覺得一定要再持續努力。雖然教育部已經在做學生輔導法相關草案的整理，但是在大家意見整合方面看起來還需要再做努力，我覺得學生輔導法務必一定要能夠就目前我們所遭遇的面向多加協助，未來也要麻煩委員這邊再做努力。儘管像大學校院這些專輔人員在113年的預算已經先行了，但是我覺得還是要有法制面的支持，包含中小學整體的人力結構，還有相關專輔人員、輔導教師的這些任務分工方面，走過這幾年如果能夠有一個更好的機制，我相信是比較能夠齊心協力來支持孩子在未來這些發展上的需求。"],["陳委員培瑜：非常謝謝部長的回復，其實我還滿驚訝部長提到學輔法，因為我在心裡面幫你放的也是學輔法，這件事情確實是很多……而且最近也才發生桃園霸凌事件，我相信部長都知道，這個部分就先謝謝部長的回應。等一下我準備了一本繪本要送給部長，我剛剛說你是最懂國教的部長，過去我在跟部長討論很多議題的時候，我發現你對國教階段的孩子真的有滿滿的耐心和愛心，這本書我自己非常喜歡，這個作家今年也要到國際書展來，書名叫「飛一下、休息一下、再想一下……」，我覺得很適合部長，也許接下來休息，但是休息完不要都沒有再往下做，我相信部長在教育議題、教育領域一定還有東西可以發揮，這個書等一下就送給部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來回到今天的主題，今天雖然在談國際招生，教育部的業務報告也提了非常多跟企業合作或是學校的設立，可是其實我們關心的是無國籍者是否可以來臺就讀。去年某北部大學招收了一個無國籍藏人學生，後來行政院和教育部有介入相關協調，後續也發函告訴這個北部大學不要再收相關的學生，可是今年這個學校又再次收到來自西藏學生的申請，四名藏人學生再被校方以教育部的指導下，以無國籍為由拒絕相關申請，部長一定非常熟悉相關議題，我就不再多說。我們有沒有機會請部長想一想，或是跟下一屆部長交接修正「外國學生來臺就學辦法」這個議題？其實在「無國籍學生就讀國民小學及國民中學辦法」是依照大學法第二十五條另定關於無國籍學生來臺就學辦法跟要點，我覺得我們在看國際人才的時候，其實很多人都知道很多藏人學生是來自於印度，如果我們在很多南向政策上，必須要跟這些國家有接軌的經驗，也許這些學生就是我們非常好的新南向的好幫手。在相關辦法修訂之前，有沒有機會藉由過去的相關經驗，面對無國籍藏人的求學申請，輔以達賴喇嘛基金會作為保證機構配套？我想這個部分也許今天部長來不及回應，但後續是不是可以跟新部長有交接的機會？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。這些年就像委員提到的，我們在國中小其實也有突破，大院這邊也支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我都認同。"],["潘部長文忠：過往像香港政治比較危急的階段，對於港生來臺也有一個比較具彈性的措施，我想這部分會請國際司持續來跟外交部就這方面的議題進行討論，因為確實已經陸陸續續有這種情況，我相信跨部會應該可以找到因應的措施。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒問題，這個部分也謝謝部長的回應，部長請回。","接下來請體育署長，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長及主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，在520之後，我猜想您會繼續留任，所以有很多事情要持續跟署長拜託及討論。這個是全大運的開幕現場，署長你有在現場，在畫面中，其中有一個可憐的選手，他的心情非常地錯綜複雜，可是他還是乖乖地在這一天把聖火的工作完成，發生了什麼事情呢？他其實被取消了資格，其中有一個選手曾經在過往自費報名參加國際賽事，在相關的規定上他就被算成國家代表隊，所以他這一次在相關運動賽事上的報名資格被認定有問題，最後被取消，這個事情不知道署長您知不知道？"],["鄭署長世忠：我曉得，這部分有經過我們組委會開會決議，還是必須依照競賽規程取消他的資格。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。目前看起來辦法是這樣，可是我們來看一下，這個一刀兩斷的切法真的合理嗎？再跟署長分享另外一個案例，一日體資生、終日體資生這件事情，我覺得也是相關類似的爭議，目前這個事情，我剛剛說的兩個選手，其中的一個選手也很願意接受目前的仲裁結果，可是這樣的限制是不是合理？我們來看一下，今天他不是透過單項協會的選拔，也不是體育署的審查報名，而只是協會代為報名自己自費報名的選手，就要被算進國家代表隊嗎？我剛右邊的這個例子，就是所謂的一日體資生、終日體資生，我們覺得相關的很多辦法是不合理的。","我們是不是可以跟署長討論──其實通盤檢討相關的規程、分級制度合理性，檢視目的跟手段一致性的這件事情，還有認真思考公正第三方仲裁做為救濟的可能性，我相信署長從上任到現在，一直很致力想要解決整體制度結構面的問題、系統性的問題，這非常地困難，可是有沒有機會從一個一個案例來看相關的事情？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想的確在資格的部分，可能在體育紛爭仲裁方面……"],["陳委員培瑜：確實有很多的困境。"],["鄭署長世忠：接下來我們再來跟委員一起討論一下，的確在當時訂那個法的時候，針對比賽現場資格的問題，的確沒有辦法像國際仲裁組織可以及時去處理，這部分我們再來跟委員一起討論看看後面怎麼來修正。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們接下來一起努力喔！","最後一個題目，關於國家代表隊風紀的問題，相關的新聞我相信署長一定都有印象，到底國家隊集訓期間跟比賽期間，教練跟球員是不是都不可以喝酒，這部分我想先請署長說說看。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們大部分的國家隊隊員都非常自律。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，教練的部分呢？在集訓期間，教練可以喝酒嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：教練的部分，他們外出我們基本上不會做太多的限制，但是他們其實還是會自律，絕對不會有太誇張的行為出現。"],["陳委員培瑜：那你認為可不可以喝酒？"],["鄭署長世忠：基本上我覺得在集訓期間，在他自己私人的時間是他的事情，我們不管，但是回到營區內，他就要保持清醒，就要維持他該有的運作。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，維持清醒跟你剛剛一直不說死，到底可不可以喝酒，你說他有他個人的時間，可是我們來看下一頁，我們其實收到相關投訴，4月25號男足U20的教練團跟廠商喝酒，還拍照上傳到社群媒體，可是因為剛剛署長一直不肯說他到底可不可以喝酒，你只說他要保持清醒，我還是要說這件事情真的有觀感的問題，當然很多球員都非常自律，很多選手都已經很自律，可是教練這個狀態真的可以嗎？我剛剛問了三次，署長你都沒有說死，我想相關看法，我們都還需要討論，署長，你覺得呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：我想這個還是個案來處理啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：這個個案有沒有機會由體育署來組成調查，不要交給協會？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我回去會來處理，我來調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：不要只交給協會，可以嗎？由體育署來主責相關調查。"],["鄭署長世忠：好，我來看看到底怎麼回事，這部分目前我還不曉得。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們之後就直接跟體育署對於相關這個個案？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":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領域一定還有東西可以發揮那這個書等一下就送給部長好那接下來回到今天的主題來下一個謝謝"},{"start":328.902,"end":345.939,"text":"今天雖然在台的國際招生教育部的業務報告也提了非常多跟企業合作或是學校的設立可是我想問一下我們其實關心的是無國籍者是否可以來台就讀我們往下看下一頁去年某北部大學他們招收了一個無國籍藏人學生後來行政院跟教育部有介入相關的協調"},{"start":347.94,"end":366.408,"text":"後續也發函告訴北部的大學不要再收相關的學生可是今年這個學校又再次收到來自西藏學生的申請四名藏人學生再被校方以教育部的指導下以無國籍為由拒絕相關申請但是我想部長您一定非常熟悉相關議題我就不再多說下一頁我們有沒有機會請部長來想一想或是跟下一屆的部長再交接這個議題"},{"start":370.209,"end":388.109,"text":"修正外國學生來臺就學辦法因為其實在無國籍學生就讀國民小學及國民中學辦法在依照大學法25條另訂關於無國籍學生來臺就學辦法跟要點我覺得這個事情我們在看國際人才的時候其實很多人都知道很多藏人學生是來自於印度對那印度"},{"start":390.632,"end":414.177,"text":"那如果我們在很多南向政策上必須要跟這些國家有接軌的經驗那也許這些學生就是我們非常好的新南向的好幫手那相關辦法修訂之前有沒有機會藉由過去的相關經驗面對無國籍藏人的求學申請服以達賴老媽基金會作為保證機構的配套這個部分我想也許今天部長來不及回應但是後續是不是可以跟新部長有交接的機會"},{"start":415.217,"end":433.751,"text":"是,謝謝委員,因為這些年,就像委員提到的,我們在國中小其實也有突破,大院這邊也支持,那過往香港政治比較危急的階段,其實也有一個比較具有彈性的措施,對港生要來。我想這部分我會請國際事這邊持續來跟外交部就這方面的議題,因為確實已經也陸陸續續這種情況了。"},{"start":440.896,"end":442.137,"text":"這跨部會我相信應該可以找到應應的措施這個部分也謝謝部長的回應那接下來請體育署長謝謝"},{"start":453.78,"end":464.168,"text":"好 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謝謝主席署長520之後我猜想您會繼續留任喔那所以有很多事情要持續跟部長拜託跟討論這個是全大運的開幕現場署長您有在現場在畫面中其中有個可憐的選手他的心情非常的錯綜複雜可是他還是乖乖地把聖火這個工作完成發生了什麼事情呢他其實被取消了資格其中有一個選手他曾經在過往"},{"start":477.418,"end":479.219,"text":"我曉得這部會有經過我們主委會開會決議還是必須依照競賽規程取消他的資格?"},{"start":498.413,"end":522.039,"text":"目前看起來辦法是這樣可是我們來看一下可是這個一刀兩斷的切法真的合理嗎再跟署長分享另外一個案例一日體資生中日體資生這件事情我覺得也是相關類似的爭議所以目前這個事情我剛剛說那兩個選手其中一個選手他們也很願意接受目前的仲裁結果可是這樣的限制是不是合理我們來看一下今天他不是透過單項協會的選拔也不是體育署的審查報名"},{"start":525.62,"end":525.82,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":540.538,"end":562.635,"text":"是不是可以跟署長討論其實通盤檢討相關的規程分級制度的合理性檢視目的跟手段的一致性這件事情還有認真思考第三方公正第三方仲裁作為救濟的可能性我相信署長從上院到現在一直很致力想要解決整體制度結構面的問題系統性的問題非常的困難可是有沒有機會從一個一個這些案例來看相關的事情"},{"start":563.786,"end":573.631,"text":"報告委員我想這個資格的部分的確這可能在我們的體育紛爭仲裁方面我們想接下來再來跟委員一起來討論一下他的確在當時在訂那個法的時候針對這個比賽現場的資格的問題的確沒有辦法像國際的仲裁"},{"start":583.215,"end":588.318,"text":"關於國家代表隊的風紀的問題其實相關的新聞我相信署長一定都有印象那到底國家隊集訓期間跟比賽期間教練跟球員是不是都不可以喝酒這部分我想先請署長說說看"},{"start":603.459,"end":604.22,"text":"那你認為可不可以喝酒?"},{"start":620.353,"end":623.075,"text":"維持清醒跟你剛剛一直不說死到底可不可以喝酒對你說他有他個人的實踐可是我們來看往下一頁"},{"start":637.225,"end":664.222,"text":"我們其實收到相關投訴那個前一天那個4月25號男足U20的教練團跟廠商喝酒然後還拍照上傳到社群媒體可是因為剛剛署長你一直不肯說他到底可不可以喝酒你只說他保持清醒可是我還是要說這件事情其實真的有觀感的問題那當然很多球員都非常的自律很多選手都已經很自律可是教練這個狀態真的可以嗎那因為可是我剛剛問了三次署長你都沒有說實我想相關的看法我們都還需要討論署長你覺得呢"},{"start":665.643,"end":665.683,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17346ec745bfd37baf76ab4a2946638eec230861210b3d4118f4ceb055e68315fde05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:09:02 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案 規定是法律規定的嗎?是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":163.304,"end":164.485,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":164.485,"end":164.825,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":164.825,"end":165.565,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":165.565,"end":166.505,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":166.505,"end":167.005,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":167.005,"end":167.605,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":167.605,"end":168.205,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":168.205,"end":168.566,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":168.566,"end":169.326,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":169.326,"end":170.366,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":170.366,"end":171.526,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":171.526,"end":172.386,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":172.386,"end":172.887,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":172.887,"end":173.567,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":173.567,"end":174.147,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":174.147,"end":175.187,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":175.187,"end":175.507,"text":"是法律規定的嗎?"},{"start":180.162,"end":201.766,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":202.403,"end":208.985,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":224.551,"end":225.513,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":238.14,"end":239.301,"text":"公務人員協會法禁止教師法。"},{"start":256.158,"end":264.963,"text":"有協會嗎?教師有協會嗎?有教師公會,他是兩軌。接下來這個我就不知道問誰了。警政署跟消防署,誰來?"},{"start":289.096,"end":315.465,"text":"副署長副署長號現在是這樣子就是國外呢國外其實其實警消大概也有有組工會前移的例子對不對有沒有罷工權有沒有全世界有沒有"},{"start":316.687,"end":338.949,"text":"就考試院提到的資料裡面都沒有罷工權。像美國是少數州有條件罷工,英國校方是有比較高的罷工門檻,那其他是限制。多數是限制或者是沒有的嗎?"},{"start":340.639,"end":352.527,"text":"現在是這樣子,我們假如說在工會法裡面讓警消人員成立工會,那他是有罷工權的喔,是不是?"},{"start":353.832,"end":370.691,"text":"他有沒有罷工權所以這個部分可能就是我們條文所以我們才會建議用協會法的方式來處理這個區塊比較能夠階段性的進展跟階段性的處理比較有一個方向跟一個處理的一個措施"},{"start":373.08,"end":400.616,"text":"是這樣子,假如說立法院是到最後是支持納入工會法像我個人我是覺得應該要徹底的修工人員協會法的落實保障工人員的一定權益我個人是這樣子可是問題是現在工會法已經送進來委員會討論了"},{"start":402.13,"end":418.022,"text":"然後沒有同時提出勞資正義處理法。勞資正義處理法裡面是明禁教師罷工的。這個還有一個比較詭異的東西就是禁止勞工罷工的項目裡面列了教師"},{"start":430.43,"end":455.296,"text":"教師本身就不是勞工所以這個就是整套法律我們怎麼去規範警消人員真的是很辛苦人力不足這個我覺得你們都必須要帶回去趕快做處理的可是直接納入工會法然後不同時修正勞資爭議處理法這個"},{"start":460.513,"end":488.086,"text":"萬一行使罷工權,我問一個問題,萬一工會法先通過了,老日正義處理法沒有同時跟上,那警消的工會就取得罷工權,罷工期間警消負責了全國最重要的事項,"},{"start":489.69,"end":500.555,"text":"我舉個例子比如說罷工的時候發生火災然後因為人力不足造成的多出來的損害有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有"},{"start":504.591,"end":511.94,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案 問題還蠻嚴重的啊。」議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 問題還蠻嚴重的啊。」"},{"start":521.932,"end":522.272,"text":"除此之外,會有這麼多"},{"start":550.629,"end":551.169,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。�"},{"start":559.07,"end":560.891,"text":"​​擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":587.493,"end":597.504,"text":"兼修的部分今年開始已經很大幅度調整有在調整有在進步我知道今年已經降到剩下124小時這個我知道不過各項權益保障還是必須要"},{"start":605.512,"end":613.133,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈一、二、三、四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〈一、二、三、四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":634.577,"end":635.598,"text":"公務人員協會法可能太慢了。"},{"start":654.464,"end":672.65,"text":"則太慢,現在就只能將錯就錯,就是再把不是勞工的反正已經有一個不是勞工的教師納入禁止罷工的行列了可能在工會法修正的同時也必須要把相關的人員的罷工權"},{"start":673.61,"end":684.314,"text":"兼禁止行使入法,這樣子才不會造成國家治安上或救災上的空窗期。謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"152427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173428609c3a97123ff8ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d4a97c753f255e09a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:25:31 - 10:37:09","影片長度":"00:11:38","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":698,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:37:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:25:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時25分）謝謝主席，請許部長及朱次長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你辛苦了。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：最後一週，我們還是討論重要的勞動權益問題，我們常常看這些消防弟兄出生入死，但是我們對於他們的權益保障，真的不能只是今日公祭、明日忘記，當每發生一件悲劇的時候，政府官員大家都會說我們要進一步再來保障這些消防弟兄的權益，但是時間過了之後，你就會看到大家並沒有提出更好的辦法，所以這也是為什麼我們看到有一些消防弟兄不斷地上街頭訴求他們要組工會。為什麼要組工會？就是因為他們覺得現行的權益沒有獲得保障，他們希望改善的事項並沒有全部到位。我們可以看到過去10年這麼多重大的災害，有三十幾位消防弟兄不幸身亡，這個都是悲劇，但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大，再看看他們的工作量，整個的緊急救護跟整個出動的比例，其實他們的工作量都是在增加的，並沒有下降。所以在這樣的情況底下，我覺得政府是有責任應該要提出一套更周延的辦法，而且要透過立法，讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障。","但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行、不可行，就是組工會、修改工會法不可行，但是我們要看到的是，如果你們認為工會法不可行，那為什麼歐美各國可以？如果是臺灣國情不同，那政府有責任必須要提出一套我們可行而且又可以保障的制度啊！而不是一直拖延，我現在看到就是無限期拖延，這個是不對的，如果我們真的正視這件事情，立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的，都是應該要去做的。","所以我先問一下，剛剛部長有提到你個人是贊成他們應該要有團結權的，但是現在是怎麼去修的問題，到目前為止，你還是認為應該放在公務人員協會法嗎？這邊可以處理嗎？你認為真的可以處理嗎？可以到位嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分能不能到位當然就是要跨部、跨院來協商，因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意，我覺得既然是屆期不連續，退回去以後，我認為現在大家應該儘速地針對各界的意見，包括召委今天排這個會議就是讓大家來陳述意見，我想我們的目標應該是一致的，如何去保障警消人員的團結權，讓他們的聲音能夠被聽到，而且最重要的是怎麼去落實他們的保障。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["許部長銘春：所以我覺得這個部分其實大家可以儘速地跨部會、跨院來針對大家所在意的這些相關權益事項來討論，我以勞動部的立場，我們是希望儘量朝放寬、朝強化的一個方向來做，像剛剛銓敘部也好，或者今天內政部也有來，大家的方向是一致的，只是要怎麼做，可能更細緻地去討論這些條文。"],["王委員育敏：如果方向是一致，我們就要怎麼做，其實沒那麼困難，現在大家到底最大的癥結點是在哪裡，是不是對於爭議權有所保留？是不是爭議權是最大問題？我問一下次長，就消防人員有團結權、有協商權，你們會有問題嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們在協會法那邊放進去，沒有問題。"],["王委員育敏：都沒有問題，那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權、罷工的部分？"],["朱次長楠賢：爭議權是個疑慮，另外就是剛剛部長也報告過，它的法源是來自公務人員任用法，所以我們希望在這個範圍內儘量把它放寬，而不要導到外面去，因為我們還有其他人員，比如監所管理人員還有醫護人員，依照我們的規定，他們都可以組特種協會，你在裡面組OK，如果都拉去工會的話，就會覺得公務人員被撕裂了。"],["王委員育敏：但是現在這一些消防弟兄之所以反對你們協會，就是覺得協會好像沒有辦法跟組工會一樣，那個權利就是不一樣啊，那個落差你們有去瞭解嗎？我覺得最大的癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權，因為有爭議權，他協商、談判的籌碼比較大，沒有爭議權的時候，事實上就還是你們說了算，如果公部門不同意，還是不同意。"],["朱次長楠賢：跟委員報告一下，世界各國警消可以組工會的，也都沒有給爭議權。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果是這樣子的話，組工會沒有爭議權，這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用？如果你說其他國家是這樣的體例，都沒有開放到爭議權的部分，我們可不可以先跨出一步，就是比照他們可行的模式來做？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們是想說先在協會法裡面把它放寬、放低，然後……"],["王委員育敏：那你們可以放寬到等同他組工會這樣的寬度嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：這可以再談，我想在現行協會法放寬之後，權益有增加的情況下去談，去運作一陣子，真的沒有辦法運作，再來討論。"],["王委員育敏：那我問一個問題，你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們……"],["王委員育敏：沒有，沒有對話，我認為這件事情是需要對話的，消防署署長也請上來。"],["朱次長楠賢：消防署應該有。"],["王委員育敏：你剛剛提到有這麼多的縣市都反對，但是你提的是問了誰？是問了你們各地的局長，還是問了縣市首長？你那個資訊要清楚，不要誤導。"],["蕭署長煥章：我們是請教消防局。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，那你不要讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊！你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見，你不要去代表整個縣市的意見，你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢？這部分你們又沒有資訊，這就是不對等，你懂嗎？公部門裡面的長官掌握了所有的資源，這個就是基層的這一些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的部分，因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達，你看像你們消防署在問意見，你是問局長的意見，你又不去問這一些基層的意見，這樣你得到的訊息，就不是一個平衡的聲音啊，才會有消防弟兄上街頭嘛，所以我認為主管機關在看待這件事情的時候，你要去敏感到那個權力不對等的問題，消防弟兄每天這樣子出勤，出生入死，當他看到了問題，沒有辦法有一個有效的管道去反映、去爭取、去改善，他當然要上街頭啊，就會是這樣子的一個情況嘛。","坦白講，你們現在是很害怕，把工會視為洪水猛獸，事實上有時候不是這樣子，如果你可以好好地跟他們討論，為什麼其他國家可以施行，我們大家好好地坐下來商量，以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則，然後有哪些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位，大家好好來談，我覺得事情是有解的，而不是用拖的，我現在看到的是大家就拖嘛，反正事件過後，拖個一、兩年沒有人再追，立法院沒有人要排案審查，這件事情就先放著，要不然照道理來講，你們如果覺得放在公務人員協會法是一個解方的話，方案老早就該提出來了，不應該放那麼久，你知道嗎？如果你今天到委員會來，端出一個很好的方案，這些消防弟兄訴求的，在協會這邊多數可以被解決，我覺得那就有一個對話的基礎跟管道，大家其實今天就可以有個很好的討論。","你們回去再想想，禮拜三還要逐條審查，把你們覺得可行的方案拿出來，因為這件事情不是只有立法委員要推而已，你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死的這些消防弟兄，怎麼讓他們感受到我們從中央、從銓敘部、從消防署、從勞動部，大家都想要捍衛他們的權益，這一點要讓他們有感受，這樣才行啊！","接下來，下一張簡報大家可以看到，為什麼現在大家覺得要組工會？你們承諾的東西，其實都沒有做到啊！消防人力嚴重短缺，蔡總統承諾大家每5年補3,000人，這5年來有3,000人嗎？沒有到位啊，有到位嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，是到位3,110位，同仁所講的沒有到位，是因為有退休人力的問題。"],["王委員育敏：那就是還是沒有到位啊……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以現在跟委員報告……"],["王委員育敏：你一進一出，不是這樣子算……"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，現在我們特考班是要招1,000位，警專是要招400位，也就是說1年會有1,400位入訓，今年本來是要入訓1,000位，結果考試只有通過380位，這是目前的問題，這個問題我們也找考試院來看要怎麼克服，考試科目跟考試的分科，我想今年會來克服，明年開始特考班有1,000位的學員，這個部分如果能夠順利到位，我想剛才委員關心的人力問題會逐步來克服。同時跟委員報告，事實上勤休目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後，逐2年減少24小時的量……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，你們……"],["蕭署長煥章：其實目前已經減少到176加124小時。"],["王委員育敏：我知道那個部分你們有做部分的改善，但是你看整體的，我們消防人員的服務人口比，跟鄰近的香港、日本、韓國、美國、新加坡比，我們其實還是比人家的狀況、條件差，剛剛署長也坦承嘛，我們喊話要增加，但是比不上退休的，這一來一往之間……"],["蕭署長煥章：退休是六百多位，沒有那麼多啦。"],["王委員育敏：對，但是你還是沒有補足嘛，實況是這樣子……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以我們會開始處理這個區塊。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個就是為什麼基層的消防弟兄，他感受到他的壓力，他想要組工會嘛，因為有些問題的確還是沒有改善，我想我們今天排這個案子就是希望大家好好地來討論，啟動這個討論跟改革，就是不能讓消防弟兄上街頭，我們不希望他們上街頭啊，我們希望他們是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災、防火，但不是要他們上街頭，好不好？我們一起來努力、改善，然後給消防弟兄更好的保障，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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«工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":63.616,"end":63.736,"text":"),委員陳菁徽"},{"start":78.866,"end":104.287,"text":"有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任"},{"start":105.548,"end":127.428,"text":"該提出一套更周延的辦法而且要透過立法讓他們的權益是真正獲得保障但是今天我們看到政府部門提出來的都是說不可行不可行就是修改工會法不可行但是我們要看到的是如果你認為工會法不可行那為什麼歐美各國可以"},{"start":130.37,"end":150.303,"text":"如果說臺灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的"},{"start":150.943,"end":154.387,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。 »:"},{"start":170.765,"end":192.74,"text":"除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?對到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委員,呃,張經理今天"},{"start":193.32,"end":209.025,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員"},{"start":217.227,"end":219.749,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":242.623,"end":257.171,"text":"如果方向是一致我就要怎麼做其實沒那麼困難啊現在大家到底是最大癥結點在哪裡是不是對於爭議權有所保留是不是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎"},{"start":260.928,"end":282.365,"text":"除此之外,我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是爭議權的部分,罷工的部分。爭議權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過,就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內,盡量給人家放寬,而不要倒到外面去。"},{"start":284.246,"end":301.773,"text":"公務人員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,你如果有的時候都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務人員就撕裂了。"},{"start":302.293,"end":330.915,"text":"但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大嘛但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算嗎如果公部門不同意還是不同意"},{"start":331.135,"end":331.596,"text":"主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在臺灣可不可以用嗎?"},{"start":345.778,"end":363.077,"text":"你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是說比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎"},{"start":364.903,"end":371.348,"text":"我問一個問題,你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎?沒有。沒有對話。我認為這件事情是需要對話的。"},{"start":386.158,"end":403.692,"text":"校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們校那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局是啊是"},{"start":404.392,"end":420.704,"text":"是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。"},{"start":421.701,"end":446.946,"text":"你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄"},{"start":447.446,"end":447.966,"text":"),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員"},{"start":476.838,"end":501.925,"text":"如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查"},{"start":502.645,"end":510.79,"text":"), 委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委"},{"start":522.577,"end":546.683,"text":"我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權敘部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的"},{"start":548.562,"end":576.399,"text":"這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題"},{"start":577.213,"end":587.601,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":605.575,"end":623.047,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。adequa班有一千位的學員。那這個部分如果說能夠順利到位,我想剛剛委員關心的人力的問題會逐步來做一個克服。那同時剛剛委員跟委員報告就是說,消防局院的溝通事實上行修目前的狀況就是透過跟同仁溝通以後逐兩年"},{"start":624.008,"end":628.174,"text":"),委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案。厲 委員王育敏等196人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。厲 委員"},{"start":642.392,"end":642.692,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":662.58,"end":690.615,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案案中的負擔和壓力,他想要組工會嘛,因為有些問題的確還是沒有持續的改善。那我想我們今天排這個案子,就是希望大家好好的來討論,啟動這個討論跟改革,就是不能讓這個消防弟兄他們是上街頭,我們不希望他上街頭啊,我們希望他是在安全的情況底下去幫大家防災防火,但是不是要他們上街頭好不好,我們一起來努力來改善"},{"start":691.015,"end":693.01,"text":"),委員然後給消防弟兄更好的保障謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173441a1c2c4b16fa4f4ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d7bed10a2a74c501c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:13:10 - 10:25:17","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":727,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:25:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:13:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":565,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時13分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有我們銓敘部。"],["主席：好，請部長跟次長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：恭喜你，部長，我們政府是最大的雇主，廣義的公務人員全部都是被它聘僱，政府是最大的雇主，但是所有的行政單位要組工會都反對，銓敘部都反對，包括我們消防員要組工會，包括我們的警察要組工會都一再反對，我這裡要肯定我們的勞動部，勞動部一直以來用我們的勞基法這種霸王條款，所有的雇主、所有的民間單位如果聽到勞基法都聞風喪膽，大家都嚇死，你們的處罰又那麼重，所以民間現在，照我看起來，勞動部真的是規範得非常好啦！你們現在的退休部分也不錯，現在用4萬5,800？"],["許部長銘春：45,800。"],["蘇委員清泉：45,800嘛！將來說要調到6萬2，會不會？"],["許部長銘春：這個未來可能要跟勞保年改一起討論。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，勞動部如果再振作一點的話，我們勞保的退休將來會比公務人員還好，公務人員一年少1%、少1%，少到現在，我的提案就是警察跟消防隊員要比照軍人的所得替代率高一點，要把它恢復，公務人員的降到現在已經降了7、8%了，很多人都到樓地板了，所以我覺得公務人員將來退休撫卹的權利會比勞保更差，但是不幸地我們今天在質詢勞動部，勞動部的權力不及於公家單位的所有員工，所以今天問你是問假的、問爽的而已，對不對？要組一個工會，你就嘰嘰歪歪，什麼都不要，中鋼、中油、中華電信都有，為什麼我們政府當最大雇主的，要組個工會有那麼難嗎？銓敘部回答一下。"],["朱次長楠賢：跟蘇委員報告，我們公務人員的體制，相關的公務人員任用法、公務員服務法、退休法，有很多，它的人事法規……"],["蘇委員清泉：但是你們的福利就很差啊！"],["朱次長楠賢：不會很差啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：人家為國捐軀，然後入忠烈祠，那個有什麼鳥用？人都已經沒有了，那個都在亡羊補牢，每天幹的事都在做亡羊補牢的事情，你們對你們僱員的權益輸給勞動部、輸給勞基法，真的是我們都看不下去。"],["朱次長楠賢：不會啦！我們就協商內容給它擴大，參與門檻給它降低，以後怎麼再擴大、再降低，我們可以再談。"],["蘇委員清泉：年輕的警察、年輕的消防隊員，我常常跑基層，幾乎天天跑基層，大家都在抱怨，大家都希望有工會來替他們發聲，老的可能比較沒有衝擊，但是這些年輕人不一樣，我跟你說，會待不住、會跑光喔！外面如果又缺人，外面的薪水如果又高，整個FDA（食藥署）在做稽查員的都找不到人，高雄、臺中、臺北都找不到人，薪水低、壓力大，常常被罵得要死，你們這裡也一樣，所以你們要看看，你們剛剛講的公務人員因公受傷什麼什麼什麼，你到底有什麼法來保障他們？有什麼法？你剛剛講了，我看也沒有什麼特殊的嘛！所以銓敘部這樣是不對的，然後你一昧地反對，美國、加拿大、英國都有工會組織，有什麼事情？我去看中鋼、我去看中華電信、我去看台電，他們的工會扮演得非常好，跟公司治理、跟他們員工的對接，當一個橋梁，跟他們爭取福利，勞動部跟他們的協調也非常好嘛！所以我再一次地肯定我們部長、我們勞動部，但是勞動部這一塊都沒有我們，要怎麼處理？你就讓它通過就好了，樂觀其成，來組工會，有什麼難呢？部長，我今天問你這個比較大的問題，小細節懶得問啦！"],["許部長銘春：因為就是身分的問題，因為這個也不是勞動部片面可以決定的，因為這牽涉到內政部、牽涉到人總，還牽涉到跨院的考試院，所以我想這個部分，保障公務人員、警消人員的權益，我想我們大家的目標都是一致的，只是說你要用一個什麼組織型態去保障他，而且重點是實質的內容，我覺得那個法可能是一個形式，但是實質的內容能夠達到保障的目的，我覺得這比較重要啦！因為像中鋼、中油現在已經民營化，它基本上不是公務人員……"],["蘇委員清泉：大部分都是國家擁有的嘛！"],["許部長銘春：但是基本上它不是公務人員……"],["蘇委員清泉：釋股出來一點點而已啊！"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得這個部分，其實銓敘部他們也認同，它也認同說應該要保障，所以要怎麼降低組工協會的門檻、怎麼擴大能夠協商的事項，因為我想大家很在意的是過去可能我講都沒人聽，我想要協商的東西好像也沒有人可以幫忙解決，我想……"],["蘇委員清泉：你們勞動部有沒有辦法介入？沒辦法。"],["許部長銘春：但是我想在這幾件事情下來，其實政府對這件事情是重視的，所以我們其實跨部會包括跨院也協商好多次，勞動部也都參與其中，我們儘量就是把如何去落實保障我們警消人員的團結權，我們儘量來協助各部會能夠把它完成。"],["蘇委員清泉：朱次長，我每一次看到、每一次去公祭、每一次去參加這些因公死亡的、受傷的，每一次去，家屬都是血淚的控訴，我們都覺得怎麼有這樣幹的，到國外去看，我就講一個，當兵當了10年，然後到外面去找工作，他軍中那10年的年資跟外面找工作的年資是可以合併的；但在臺灣當兵當了19年，沒有20年就沒有月退，而19年之前全部歸零，然後給他一個什麼退休金一點點錢，之後到外面去找工作是從頭來，那他不就要很「保庇」他都可以待20年以上，19年、18年就歸零。現在就是這樣，每天常常在接的陳情都是這樣，所以國防部在騙百姓、政府在騙百姓嘛！國外早就可以合併了，這個是天經地義的事情，銓敘部有什麼辦法嗎？我說的這些政府都是最大的雇主，不管是軍人、不管是軍公教或警消都是一樣。"],["朱次長楠賢：現在退休的部分我們是用確定提撥制，比較有彈性。"],["蘇委員清泉：比較有彈性？"],["朱次長楠賢：對，做15年以上就可以領了。"],["蘇委員清泉：15年以上就可以領？"],["朱次長楠賢：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。部長，我再問你中高齡的部分，你的意思就是中高齡來上班，只要僱了他之後就不能隨便辭退他，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對……"],["蘇委員清泉：不能用65歲為界線？"],["許部長銘春：對，不能用65歲為界線。"],["蘇委員清泉：所謂不能隨便辭退他是用各種理由還是用65歲是一個上限？"],["許部長銘春：其實65歲是一個「得」啦！就是他如果滿65歲，你可以強制他退休，但你也可以繼續嘛！所以其實這個規定當時是在保障勞工在65歲之前不會任意的被退休啦！但是如果它優於勞基法，他滿65歲要繼續做，而資方也覺得這個員工它正需要，他的經驗、技術正好，要繼續做，這個法律是認同的。"],["蘇委員清泉：那他是到65歲就可以領勞保的月退，再進來讓你hire他……"],["許部長銘春：他自己選擇，他一次退還是領年金都可以，他自己決定，但是他如果65歲以後要再回來上班，可以啊！以前勞基法不能訂定期契約喔！我們的中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法當時就是突破這個限制，也就是高齡者回聘可以訂定期契約，但是你不能聘他之後過兩天就說他滿65歲要把他……"],["蘇委員清泉：不能隨隨便便？"],["許部長銘春：對，不能隨便。"],["蘇委員清泉：你說那個要優惠130%、150%，那是什麼意思？稅金的部分。"],["許部長銘春：那是財政部的。"],["蘇委員清泉：賦稅署的副署長。"],["許部長銘春：財政部的，中小企業發展條例是經濟部啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：你給它200%也可以啊！"],["許部長銘春：經濟部啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：那是經濟部還是賦稅署的？"],["許部長銘春：經濟部。"],["倪副署長麗心：主要是經濟部的案子，財政部跟經濟部共同來研究，中小企業發展條例這個案子上禮拜經過大院審查，案子目前就是交由黨團協商。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你說要求的130%、150%都有可能嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：目前行政院的版本是150%。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們如果要求200%可以嗎？"],["倪副署長麗心：大院有很多委員的版本，目前就是正在跟經濟部還有在黨團協商這樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。因為我在美國的達拉斯看到開shuttle bus的，我問他幾歲了，他說他78歲，78歲還在開shuttle bus，我看他這樣勇健，所以美國是78歲還在開車，還在服務；日本也有喔！開計程車也有七、八十歲的耶！因此只要他的能力、他的體力夠，我們專業人員又那麼缺，這些人都是我們可以用的，所以現在醫生70歲還在看病的一堆，因此沒什麼退休年齡，我們勞動部要加油啦！公務人員這邊你要加油啦！手要伸進去，以上，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉代）：接續請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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你的法律就很壞了﹖ 不會啦﹖探討人為國監修然後入中獵池,那個有什麼用﹖"},{"start":191.22,"end":197.422,"text":"每天幹的事都在做亡羊補牢的事情。你們對你們僱員的權益比較屬勞動部、比較屬勞計劃。這真的是我都看下去了。我們就協商內容給他擴大、參議門檻給他降低。以後怎麼再擴大、再降低我們可以再談。"},{"start":221.152,"end":247.765,"text":"年輕的警察、年輕的消防隊員,我常常跑基層,幾乎天天跑基層,大家都叫我叫我,大家都希望有工會來替我生,老的可能比較沒有衝擊,但是現在的年輕人不一樣,我跟你說,會住不住,會遭料料,外面又欺負人,外面的行事又管,"},{"start":249.056,"end":253.237,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":278.24,"end":292.203,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,及公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文�"},{"start":301,"end":317.682,"text":"公務部跟那邊的那個協調也非常好嘛,所以我再一次的肯定我們部長,我們勞動部,但是勞動部這一塊都沒我們的,沒怎麼處理,你就給同櫃就好了,樂觀其成,來做工會,有什麼人勒?部長?"},{"start":322.219,"end":329.265,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。案。"},{"start":345.999,"end":368.755,"text":"除此之外,你用什麼組織的形態去保障它?而且重點是實質的內容。我覺得那個法可能一個形式,但是實質的內容能夠達到保障的目的,我覺得這比較重要。因為像中鋼,因為它現在已經民營化了,它基本上不是工人業。大部分都是國家擁有的嘛。自放出來一點點而已啊。"},{"start":371.557,"end":373.939,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":396.217,"end":415.248,"text":" »: 我想在這幾件事情下來,政府對這件事情是重視的。我們其實跨部會包括跨院協商很多事,勞動部也都參與期間。我們盡量就是把如何去落實保障我們警消人員的團結權,我們盡量來協助各部會能夠把它完成。"},{"start":415.908,"end":428.799,"text":"我們朱次長我每次看到每次去攻擊每次去參加這些這些這些叫做因公的死亡的啦受傷的每次去家屬都是血裂的痛控訴"},{"start":430.365,"end":445.88,"text":"我們都覺得怎麼會有這樣幹的我到國外去看人家就講一個當兵當了10年然後到外面去找工作他軍中那10年的年資跟外面找工作的年資是可以合併的"},{"start":447.352,"end":467.542,"text":"我們在台灣當兵當了19年沒有20年就沒有月退然後19年之前全部歸零然後給你一個什麼退休什麼挖革金一點點錢然後到外面去找工作從頭來啊你不就要做剝皮工你都會都住20年以上啊19年、18年就歸零"},{"start":471.645,"end":498.98,"text":"現在就這樣呢每天常常在接那個陳秦斗就是這樣所以這國安部在騙百姓政府在騙百姓嘛因為國安早就可以合併了這個是天經地義的事情沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼沒什麼"},{"start":501.954,"end":504.276,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案 案"},{"start":514.71,"end":536.187,"text":"你做15年以上就可以擬?15年以上就可以擬部長我再問你這個鍾高麟的你的意思就是說鍾高麟來上班只要顧了他之後就不能隨便辭退他對不對"},{"start":537.05,"end":547.651,"text":"不能用65歲為界限。那所謂不能隨便辭退他是用各種理由還是用65歲是一個上限?"},{"start":549.471,"end":568.127,"text":"之六十五歲是一個你得啦就是說他如果滿六十五歲你可以強制他退休那你也可以繼續嘛所以他其實這個規定當時候是在保障勞工在六十五歲之前不會被任意的被退休啦"},{"start":569.889,"end":572.874,"text":"但是如果你優惠勞基法以滿65歲,我要繼續做,主方也覺得你這個員工我聽說你經驗很好、技術很好,你要繼續。"},{"start":580.247,"end":586.874,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立"},{"start":602.731,"end":617.337,"text":"我們中高齡高齡者就業促進法當時候就是突破這個限制就是說高齡者這個高齡者他回聘他可以訂定期契約但是你不可以把他聘了你說過兩天你說你滿65歲不能隨便那你說那個那個那個要優惠130%150%那這什麼意思"},{"start":626.764,"end":631.47,"text":"財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部"},{"start":642.605,"end":656.978,"text":"經濟部主要是經濟部的案子那財政部跟經濟部共同來研究那這個中小企業發展台這個案子已經上禮拜經過這個大院有審查那案子目前現在就是交由黨團協商所以你說要求的130、150都有可能嗎目前行政院的版本是150那我們如果要求200可以嗎"},{"start":669.185,"end":682.611,"text":"目前大院有很多委員的版本那目前就是正在跟經濟部還有在跟在黨團協商這樣好因為我在在美國齁我在那個達拉斯看到那個shuttle bus開shuttle bus的我問你幾歲啊他說七十八歲"},{"start":689.389,"end":707.835,"text":"七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。厲 國七十八人擬具工會法第四條及第六條條文�"},{"start":718.64,"end":722.756,"text":"公務員這邊你要加油啦 手要伸進去 以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734c6fc816ca9feae92a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4db90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:24:11 - 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們對太平島都是中華民國的領土如果這句話就跟中國一定切開了切得很清楚所以這個立場是絕對不會變的"},{"start":452.027,"end":470.644,"text":"主權上面第二個部分是中國在南海的說法是什麼九段線我們可能是11段我們的說法又是什麼他們倡議的主要的講法是什麼我們要怎麼樣去definition我們的說法這個部分要怎麼樣跟這次選擇要去的立法委員講"},{"start":471.405,"end":472.206,"text":"我想立法委員去一定有他的智慧"},{"start":490.68,"end":516.616,"text":"在這個太平島就是中華民國的領土上不應該跟中國唱和好那次長我希望說提供給這些要去的中國國民黨的這些黨籍的或者是在野黨黨籍立法委員一個我們希望的一套的說法避免跟中共是有重疊的是最好是把我們的特色講出來我想這對台灣的主權還是非常重要的是謝謝次長好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17345c60fd5049fc04f8ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4dd4739e4e9503208b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:16:22 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10:29:29","影片長度":"00:13:07","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":787,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:29:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:16:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時16分）我請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：來，部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。今天我們是在討論我們的大學怎麼去國際招生，主要是因應少子化，甚至於可以招攬一些外籍生，未來可以輔導他在臺灣就業，補充我們勞動市場的不足，今天應該主題是這個，沒錯嘛？我想問一下，教育部在推動這相關計畫的時候，KPI是什麼？是以人數當作KPI嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，人數只是其中之一，其實我們為什麼後續在大學的發展體制裡面，高教生深耕計畫的二期會把國際化作為一個很重要學校去做的重點？是因為有越來越多的國際學生到臺灣來，那些的服務措施包含怎麼樣去做才會有好的品質……"],["葉委員元之：部長，不好意思，我是比較希望你針對我的問題回答啦，所以人數是越多越好，還是你對人數會有一個總額限制？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，人數方面，其實每一個計畫裡面都有一個規範。"],["葉委員元之：所以沒有說越多越好？"],["潘部長文忠：所以像新南向產攜專班，召委最瞭解了……"],["葉委員元之：你會控制在一定的名額以內？"],["潘部長文忠：我們是要嚴格審查計畫。"],["葉委員元之：對，嚴格審查，但是是多多益善？"],["潘部長文忠：並不是在求量，真的不是在求量。"],["葉委員元之：如果有越多很優質的學生願意來，我們就儘量開放？"],["潘部長文忠：當然，他是真的來臺灣求學，而不是魚目混珠來打工等等，如果他是來求學之後去做勞基法所允許的工讀，這個倒不成問題。"],["葉委員元之：瞭解，謝謝。部長，我很高興聽到你說要嚴格把關，不是以人數濫竽充數，但我知道教育部補助給新南向學生非常多的錢，你們實際上有沒有去追蹤他們來之後，到底對於臺灣教育、甚至於對我們的就業市場有多大的幫助？我不知道你們到底有沒有做這樣的審核？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員……"],["葉委員元之：再來，以我們的數據來看，新南向國家有非常多，我知道新南向是蔡政府的政績，主要都一直在講新南向，但新南向也有很多國家，實際上你們好像特別重視越南、印尼跟馬來西亞，光是這三個國家的學生就占了將近六成，不知道為什麼其他國家不能積極去招生呢？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們會積極，因為……"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼比例失衡那麼多？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，這是因為第一個，他們也要有意願來……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼只有他們有意願？有沒有意願本來就是看你怎麼招嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們有10個招生基地，目前這3個……"],["葉委員元之：好啦，部長，我也不為難你啦！我點出問題，我們希望說，既然你希望透過這個方式國際化，但國際化當然就是國家多多益善，不要只重視幾個國家。"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！"],["葉委員元之：再來，既然我們想要推動大學跟國外交流，當然是想要補充國內市場，但我不知道陸生為什麼老是被排斥？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啊，那是中共排斥，不是我們。"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，去年侯友宜做新北市長在選總統的時候，也有提出希望有陸生來臺就學，然後可以留下來工作，結果就被民進黨罵爆，說這些陸生會大量搶臺灣年輕人的工作。但我就覺得很奇怪，教育部不是對於陸生留下來工作有相關的管制嗎？為什麼這些民進黨立委會提出這樣的質疑呢？再來，我們找了那麼多越南、印尼、馬來西亞的人來這邊讀書、就業，就不怕他們搶我們年輕人的工作嗎？差別在哪？"],["潘部長文忠：不好意思！我要這樣講是因為它有個源頭，當時馬總統開啟陸生來臺這個部分，當時有一個三限六不的政策。"],["葉委員元之：有嘛！不是就有三限六不嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：如果是當時一開始就有這樣的……"],["葉委員元之：部長，所以你也很怕開放陸生來臺會搶我們年輕人的工作？你怕不怕？"],["潘部長文忠：因為三限六不就沒有工作……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以去年民進黨在罵什麼？如果你贊同那些民進黨看法的話，我就很擔心越南、印尼、馬來西亞的人來搶我們臺灣年輕人的工作，教育部的業務都不用推動了嘛！所以真的不用太多意識形態！再來我問一個問題，韓院長在3月多出席一個臺英國會聯誼活動的時候，有提到希望英國一些名校可以來臺灣設分部，他主要是認為假設英國名校在臺灣設分部，我們周邊的國家或其他國家的學生也可以來就學，可以增加一些國際學生交流的機會，部長知道這件事嗎？你知不知道？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，依照私校法的規定是合作開班。"],["葉委員元之：不是，他希望能夠設臺灣分校，你知不知道這件事？你不知道？沒關係！因為部長日理萬機，也不見得知道院長講過什麼。但是有一個人講過，你不知道就有點誇張了，賴清德在2017年的時候也說希望外國名校可以來臺設分校，而且他還講來臺設分校可以承接我們退場私校的場地，這是2017年講的。賴清德準總統在競選總統的時候也講過真的非常鼓勵國際一流學府來臺設立分校，而且沒有對任何一個國家設限，然後記者問他北大、復旦來呢？他都沒有設限，我現在不是要針對北大、復旦，我現在只是想問，韓院長講了，你說你不知道，但是賴清德前行政院長在2017年講過，去年的政見他也主張這件事情，教育部到底有沒有接收到這個訊息、有沒有著手去推動這個方案？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，現在依照私校法的規範，他如果來就必須遵循，這個部分可能需要再做一些突破。"],["葉委員元之：不是！賴清德講話你都沒有在聽，這是他講的，你覺得這是一個方向嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果他們是適用私校法……"],["葉委員元之：好啦！部長，我不為難你，但是這是韓院長講的，也是你們賴準總統講的，當然你也可以不用理他了，但是教育部有沒有要理？你旁邊是高教司長嗎？你知道這件事嗎？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：這個部分要修私校法，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：不是你告訴我有什麼困難，我是說你有沒有要做這個事情，這是賴清德準總統講的，你有沒有要做？沒有？哇賽！這個司長很大尾，居然打臉賴清德準總統！我覺得我不是故意要找你麻煩，我是把賴清德講的話一個字一個字唸出來，所以你們不曉得這個事情，還是賴清德開芭樂票？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個部分在目前來講……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係！我不為難你，我要繼續……"],["潘部長文忠：後續如果需要修私校法可以在大會討論。"],["葉委員元之：不是我們在大會討論，這是你們準總統說要推的東西，什麼我們在大會討論？你們開的政見可以隨便講講喔！面對學生的時候講一套，現在我們在立法院問的時候就說立法委員要推，你們自己在大會討論，這太奇怪了吧！高教司長說要修私校法，結果變成立法委員的事了，賴清德以後什麼事都不用開支票了嘛！競選連任的時候也不用講這些有的沒的，反正也沒有要落實啊！","最後，我要問一個問題，最近大家非常關心行政機關到底可不可以隨便把一些公文或一些文件列密等，既然高教司長朱司長在現場，請教蔡英文總統的升等論文現在是密等，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：它只是依照一般慣性的……"],["葉委員元之：公務機密、列密等？"],["潘部長文忠：所有學生的論文都是一樣的。"],["葉委員元之：學生論文都是公開的。"],["潘部長文忠：抱歉！升等論文。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，你根據什麼法律列密等？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啊！"],["葉委員元之：列密等要有法源基礎，根據什麼法律列密等？請司長回答。"],["朱代理司長俊彰：跟委員報告，目前所有教師資格審查的資料……"],["葉委員元之：根據什麼法律？你不能自己說要列就列嘛！臺灣是依法行政，還是依你朱司長的命令？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：目前是根據部內……"],["葉委員元之：什麼辦法、什麼法律？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：行政機關處理文書作業手冊裡面的規定。"],["葉委員元之：請問行政機關處理文書手冊哪一條說升等論文要列密等？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：所有有涉及到申請人個資的，我們都會列密等。"],["葉委員元之：請問為什麼升等論文是個資？我問過非常多的大學教授，他們說升等論文哪有是密等這種事，大家都是根據已經公開的論文或公開的文章拿去升等，這些都公開的，為什麼只有蔡英文總統升等要列為密等？密等年限多久？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：論文本身並沒有列密等，是升等……"],["葉委員元之：好啊！那你就把他的論文公開。"],["朱代理司長俊彰：論文已經公開了。"],["葉委員元之：升等的內容。"],["朱代理司長俊彰：升等論文的內容是公開的，是申請人的申請表跟教師資格審查的過程是列密等，論文本身是公開的。"],["葉委員元之：所以他的升等論文有公開，公開在哪裡？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：論文都是公開的，目前在國圖……"],["葉委員元之：國圖那個是學位論文。"],["朱代理司長俊彰：國圖、政大和中原大學的圖書館都可以看得到。"],["葉委員元之：你講的是學位論文還是升等論文？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：升等論文。"],["葉委員元之：升等論文在國圖和政大……"],["朱代理司長俊彰：我們有去查過圖書館，我們會後可以提供給委員。"],["葉委員元之：你說你有看過在英國倫敦政經學院的學位論文？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：我本人沒有到英國看過。"],["葉委員元之：你沒有看過，為什麼你當時可以出來講那個論文是真的？請問那個論文是當初蔡英文總統在英國畢業的時候交給圖書館的？還是後來才補交的？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：跟委員報告，我們有透過駐英代表處……"],["葉委員元之：我問的問題，你就直接回答我，那個是他畢業之後拿去的？還是後來大家在質疑他沒論文的時候拿去的？是哪一個時間點？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：這個部分我們有透過駐英代表跟……"],["葉委員元之：你回答我的問題，什麼透過駐英代表？我問你的是時間點是哪一個？不要在國會殿堂那邊耍嘴皮子，哪一個時間點？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個部分都沒有例外……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我問司長是哪一個時間點？"],["潘部長文忠：包含所有教授的論文是一致的規範……"],["葉委員元之：部長，不好意思！不好意思！我現在的問題是你們的司長公開講過蔡英文的學位論文在英國圖書館看到……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，你問司長一個……他又沒有在英國圖書館上班……"],["葉委員元之：我現在的問題是他畢業交過去，還是後來遺失再補交的？你回答我這個問題嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：總統府、蔡總統當時都已經說明了……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我剛剛對你很客氣……"],["潘部長文忠：你為難司長了，司長不是在英國圖書館上班的館員。"],["葉委員元之：我現在就事論事而已，不用那麼急著出來護航，當你出來插話的時候，我就知道你心虛了。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有、沒有，委員，你問得過頭了，我當然要說明。"],["葉委員元之：我問哪裡過頭？"],["潘部長文忠：他不是英國圖書館的館員。"],["葉委員元之：司長之前講他看過……"],["潘部長文忠：蔡總統的升等論文本來就是公開的。"],["葉委員元之：我現在問的是他看過的那本是遺失後來補交的，還是畢業之後就交的？因為現在大家質疑的是，所有的畢業生通常畢業都要交論文給圖書館，為什麼蔡總統沒有？今天司長出來講有啊，透過駐英代表處有看過，我現在問的是這是他是補交的還是原本交的，這問題有什麼難回答的嗎？這有那麼難回答嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不難回答。"],["葉委員元之：你不敢回答就代表心虛嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有什麼好心虛的。"],["葉委員元之：請問是什麼答案？二選一的問題答不出來？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，這個論文是公開的。"],["葉委員元之：誰問你是不是公開的？"],["潘部長文忠：當時升等論文……"],["葉委員元之：我當然知道他後來有公開，2019年有個白手套記者會他有公開，我現在問的是你們看過的那本是他畢業交的，還是後來白手套公開之後再補過去的？這個問題很難回答嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不會難回答。"],["葉委員元之：不難回答的話，為什麼司長可以在不瞭解狀況的情況之下，直接出來認證那個論文是真的？"],["潘部長文忠：那個是駐英代表已經確認了，他只是轉達這個概念，他不是到……"],["葉委員元之：所以教育部可以隨便駐英代表講了一個東西之後，然後你們沒有查證就隨便出來背書，教育單位是這樣搞的？"],["潘部長文忠：那些都是經過公家單位的確認。"],["葉委員元之：確認你也要知道細節，我現在問的是那本的年限是到底是畢業之後交的，還是後來大家發現都找不到之後補的，這個問題很難回答嗎？因為你們有確認過，你們透過駐外單位去確認過。"],["潘部長文忠：不是難回答，朱司長不是英國圖書館的館員，沒有辦法回答你講的流程問題。"],["葉委員元之：那你就沒辦法解釋大家的懷疑，就不要在那邊背書嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有背書。"],["葉委員元之：你的答案根本就沒有解除大家的懷疑，你知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：因為教育部……"],["葉委員元之：大家的懷疑是為什麼圖書館裡面都沒有他的論文，後來他也許補了一份，你就說看到了，在那個圖書館有，你這樣背書有意義嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這沒什麼背書，這個議題已經討論很久了。"],["葉委員元之：沒有背書出來講什麼？沒有背書幹嘛出來講？"],["潘部長文忠：外界關心，教育部是主管機關，當然要說我們得到的是什麼訊息，不是這樣嗎？"],["葉委員元之：好啦！沒關係！謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.91159375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.109718750000003,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.26096875,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.565343750000004,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.30846875,"end":60.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.392843750000004,"end":62.14784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.494093750000005,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.31659375,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.76284375,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.32346875,"end":74.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.75784375,"end":77.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.42409375000001,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.89221875,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.53284375000001,"end":84.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.73471875,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.08034375000001,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.92784375000001,"end":94.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.02471875,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":95.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.76659375000001,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.79909375000001,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.22096875000001,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.33909375,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.59221875,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.72409375000001,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.64909375000002,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.76284375,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.42096875000001,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.50534375,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.04534375,"end":157.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.49159375000002,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.70221875000001,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.12784375,"end":169.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.32409375,"end":177.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.11721875,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.18471875,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.27284375000002,"end":187.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.61346875,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.98471875,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.33034375000003,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.03159375,"end":212.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.62909375,"end":234.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.12096875,"end":236.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.01534375000003,"end":235.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.43721875000003,"end":240.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.53346875000003,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"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謝謝"},{"start":390.67,"end":414.25,"text":"不是你告訴我要怎麼困難我是說你有沒有要做這個事情啊這是賴清德準總統獎你有沒有要做沒有哇塞 這個司長很大尾捏居然打臉那個賴清德準總統我覺得不是我故意的找你麻煩我是用那個賴清德講話一個字一個字唸出來的所以你們不曉得這個事情還是賴清德開巴拉票"},{"start":417.185,"end":445.105,"text":"沒有委員這個部分在目前來講後續需要如果是要私校法可以在大會討論啊不是我們在大會討論是你們準總統說要推的東西什麼我們大會討論你們開的證件可以隨便講講面對學生的時候講一套然後現在我們在立法院問的時候就說立法委員你們要推你們自己大會討論這太奇怪了吧然後高校師長說要修私校法變立法委員的事那賴清德以後都什麼事都不用開支票了嘛"},{"start":446.025,"end":466.414,"text":"進選連任的時候也不用講這些有的沒的反正也沒有要落實最後我來問一個問題最近大家非常關心就是行政機關到底可不可以隨便把一些公文或一些文件列密等因為我想請教一下既然高校師長朱師長在現場請教一下我們蔡英文總統的論文深等論文是不是現在是密等"},{"start":467.042,"end":467.202,"text":"請師長回答好不好"},{"start":488.485,"end":509.774,"text":"根本報告目前所有教師資格審查的資料根據什麼法律你不能自己說要列就列嗎臺灣是依法行政還是依你朱司長的命令我們目前是根據我們什麼辦法什麼法律行政機關處理文書的作業請問一下行政機關處理文書守則哪一條說深等論文要列密等"},{"start":512.557,"end":532.475,"text":"請問一下升等論文為什麼是各自我問過非常多的大學教授他說升等論文哪有是密等這種事大家都是根據已經公開的論文或公開的文章拿去升等這些都公開的為什麼只有我們蔡英文總統升等要列為密等密等連線多久"},{"start":534.122,"end":541.375,"text":"論文本身並沒有好啊 那你就把他的論文公開啊論文已經公開了不是 深等的內容"},{"start":542.463,"end":565.744,"text":"深等論文的內容是公開的是申請的那申請表跟我們教師資格審查的那個過程那個是秘密的所以他的深等論文有公開?公開在哪裡?目前國圖國圖那個是學位論文嘛國圖中政大跟中研大學的圖書館都可以你講的是學位論文還是深等論文?"},{"start":566.892,"end":569.554,"text":"請問一下那個論文是當初蔡英文總統她在英國畢業的時候交給圖書館的還是後來才補交的?"},{"start":594.489,"end":602.638,"text":"我問的問題你就直接回答我那個是他畢業之後拿去的還是後來大家在質疑他沒論文的時候拿去的是哪一個時間點"},{"start":604.842,"end":619.131,"text":"這部份有沒有透過駐英代表跟...你回答我的問題什麼透過駐英代表問你是時間點是哪一個嘛不要在國會殿堂在那邊耍嘴皮子哪一個時間點委員這個部分這部份一點都沒有例外我問師長是哪一個時間點部長不好意思部長我現在的問題是說"},{"start":624.574,"end":630.959,"text":"你們的司長公開講過蔡英文總統的學位論文在英國讀書館看到我現在問你是說是他畢業教過去還是後來遺失被補教的嗎?你回答我這個問題嗎?不是啦我剛剛對你很客氣啦我現在就就事論事了你怎麼那麼急著出來問話呢?"},{"start":645.07,"end":657.921,"text":"當你出來插話的時候我就知道你心虛了啦委員你問得過頭了我當然要說明我問哪裡過頭不是阿他不是英國圖書館的館員阿是師長跟他講師長之前講說他看過嘛我現在問說看過的那一份是之前從醫師後來教的還是畢業之後就教的嘛因為現在大家質疑的是說所有的畢業生通常畢業都要繳論文給圖書館那為什麼蔡總統沒有嘛那今天師長出來講說有阿"},{"start":670.512,"end":670.692,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":689.765,"end":709.794,"text":"誰問你是不是公開的我當然知道他有公開嘛他後來2019年白手套記者會有公開我現在問的是說那本你們看過那本是他畢業教的還是後來白手套公開之後再補過去的嘛這問題很難回答嗎不會難回答為什麼市長可以在不了解狀況情況之下直接出來認證說那個論文是真的"},{"start":710.814,"end":733.684,"text":"那那個是租賓的代表裡面已經確認了他只是轉達這個概念他不是到那所以你們教育部可以隨便喔租賓代表講了一個東西之後然後就沒有查證就隨便出來背書喔教育單位是這樣搞的喔那些都是經過公家單位的確認那你確認你也知道細節啊我現在問你說那本的年限到底是畢業之後繳的還是後來大家發現都找不到之後補的"},{"start":738.559,"end":744.463,"text":"這問題很難回答嗎?因為你們有確認過嘛你們透過數萬單位去確認嘛那你就沒辦法解釋大家的懷疑就不要在那邊背書嘛沒有背書你的答案根本就沒有解除他的懷疑因為大家的懷疑是說為什麼圖書館裡面都沒有他的論文然後後來他也許補了一份補了一份你就說看到了有啊在那個圖書館有啊那你這樣背書有意義嗎?"},{"start":769.16,"end":781.171,"text":"這沒什麼背書這個議題已經討論很久了沒有背書幹嘛出來講外界關心教育部是主管機關當然要說我們得到的是什麼訊息啊不是這樣嗎 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10:23:47","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":568,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:23:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:14:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時14分）有請田次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：早。剛剛楚茵委員有提到國安相關的事項，本來今天也想問，但是我覺得這部分我們可能留待，剛剛主席也有提到，搞不好這幾天有機會再邀國安單位來，所以我今天針對外交的部分來問。第一個我先講一下，因為最近風風雨雨，本來謠傳說今天有很多委員想要來針對外交部提問，但是可能因為今天部長沒來，我猜可能會到禮拜三、禮拜四。但不管怎樣，先定調一下，我覺得這整件事情其實非常單純，次長可以看到我這邊有整理幾個我們刑法目前的規定，第一百零九條是針對國防相關的文書；第一百三十二條，就是這次比較爭議性的、國防以外的秘密；第三百十八條是與公務員有關，但是為工商秘密。","說真的行政跟立法都有其分界，就好像今天行政上有行政的特權，但不可能說行政的特權可以殺人放火；立法委員當然也有我們自己的權力，但也不代表立法委員有可以把密件拿出來透露的權力，這其實是兩件事情。我想也藉由這個機會告訴大家，像第三百十八條，公務員洩漏的時候，它限定的並不是所有的秘密，是限定在工商秘密。而第一百零九條的文字是「國防『應秘密』」，也就是目前在我們刑法的規範上面，其實秘密基本上是要限定的，就是特定的秘密，不是所有的秘密，不然的話會有處罰過廣的問題。這一次比較爭議性的第一百三十二條，就是這次在記者會被拿出來的到底是不是「應秘密」這件事情，當然可以討論，但是我也必須告訴大家，就是請問外交部在判斷秘密的這件事情上，不知道次長知不知道是要形式上去認定，還是要實質上去認定？"],["田次長中光：這個案我們認為在形式跟實質上都有權力做一個判斷。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝次長。其實在法律上的判斷，只要形式上已經符合是秘密，譬如它上面有個「密件」、寫個「密」，基本上就必須要做告發的行為。至於實質上它到底符不符合「應秘密」3個字，這交給法官判斷、交給檢察官判斷，當然外交部會有外交部的立場。但其實這整件事情非常簡單，就是我們看到它是一個密件，而這個密件在形式上已經符合所謂秘密之文書，所以外交部依職權就告訴相關檢察單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑。我們都是這樣子在看一個案件，10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑，到檢察官起訴可能是百分之五、六十的嫌疑，法官確定這真的是問題了，那就是百分之百了，對不對？所以是一步一步往上的，倒不是說什麼今天行政單位像外交部，它必須要去實質認定內部如此詳細的事項。因為這幾天這個爭議可能會很大，所以我想在前面先跟大家講一下整件事情的來龍去脈。","接下來我想針對今天的問題，今天的題目是在講，就是習近平跑到歐洲的這個過程，我這邊綜整了一下，2022年習近平有跟蒲亭見面，後來俄羅斯也入侵烏克蘭；他在2023年跑去敘利亞，不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了。對我來講，其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去見這些可能跟臺灣有關的友邦，而是見到跟中國更為靠近的一些國家。有的時候，我們今天要看的這個框架，可能不太在於像他去法國這件事情，而是他如果在這個行程當中又跑去了其他一些國家，我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事。所以跟拜登會面，像這個是我們的民主同盟國家，那他在這邊就會講什麼他短期並沒有侵臺計畫等等之類的，這就倒過來了，它跟這個戰爭的發生沒有關係，比較像是一種promise，就是臺海穩定什麼的等等之類。這一次我在業務報告裡面也看到蠻多就是在討論，那他到底跟馬克宏討論了整個歐洲跟中國之間的關係，因為現在比較緊繃，尤其是歐盟，而這個緊繃的關係要怎麼緩解，我覺得他可能很大的目標是在於這裡。所以我只是單純覺得，其實習近平訪歐好像感覺上沒有那麼重要，但有另外一件事情更為重要，其實是南海衝突，為什麼？我覺得以外交部的立場，或者以次長的立場來講，我們今天本來要討論臺海局勢，就是他現今訪歐跟臺海局勢的關係，南海這個局勢跟臺海的局勢比起來，不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險？"],["田次長中光：我個人覺得，在南海的可能是比較危險一點。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝次長，你跟美國相關的判斷是一致的，他們認為現在南海的風險其實非常非常高。在南海風險比較高的狀況之下，中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突非常多，我們也可以看到先前他們好幾次國際上的協定或者仲裁的一些結果，中國不願意接受。夏立言在2024年3月訪中，應該還不到回來的時候，馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的議題。太平島之所以重要，是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要，它不是對我國重要而已，它對菲律賓很重要，對中國也很重要。所以這件事情，對我來講，反而可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為我們今天在太平島上面的所作所為，可能會被中國拿去利用。","但我這邊也要強調一件事情，我完全不反對去太平島這件事，我覺得我們的各個委員如果有人想要去，這絕對是他的權利，而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西，這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內。我比較擔心的事情是，因為國台辦之前發出一個聲明說它很高興，現在有人可以跟他們共同守護相關的主權，所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐。當然我們現在有委員要去，這是他們的權利，但不知道外交部有沒有一些研判、告訴這些要出發的委員說，我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用？因為我們可以預判，中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪，但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好，不讓它利用的話，這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義，不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判，然後給這些能夠出發的委員，讓他們知道有什麼事情可以做、什麼事情不能做？在整個南海的局勢上面。"],["田次長中光：基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的，太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權，不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的。那麼尊重立法委員，如果要去訪問自己的國土，我們是相當相當地尊重，中間如果需要外交部協助的地方，因為外交部會協助，如果立法委員到海外的話，每到一個國家我們都會協助。但是到了太平島，可能已經不是我們的範圍之內，我們予以高度的祝福、高度的祝福。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，我覺得像這種事情，因為不同的局勢會有不同的風險評估，不管國安單位、外交單位，能夠讓出訪的知道現在南海局勢有什麼樣的風險，所以去的時候可以注意什麼，我覺得對委員會有很大的幫助。"],["田次長中光：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後再給我30秒，很不好意思。目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情，以往有這個叫做幽靈協議的「九二共識」，就是完全不知道在講什麼，「九二共識」就生出來了。延續剛剛提的南海衝突，目前菲律賓一直駁斥，因為中國就一直在講他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個協定，有一個新模式已經談好了，談好了之後，現在找不到這個人，但是偏偏中國最近釋出了那段錄音，然後就說你看，我們就已經談了，關於南海的局勢，這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話。像這種幽靈式的法律戰，像以往中國在金門水域做的事情是，真的創造一個既定的事實，他就再用法律框架把它匡下去；但現在不是，他連法律框架跟事實都不具備，他直接偽造了一個東西，然後說我們已經談好了。那我很怕這一陣子南海的這種方式會變得越來越多，所以如果能夠把這個納入風險評估，讓能夠去太平島的人知道這件事情，我覺得也會是重要的，所以想稍微做個簡單的提醒。"],["田次長中光：是，好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，因為時間的關係。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.52034375,"end":3.4734687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.30471875,"end":4.3678437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.41784375,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.69034375,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.140968750000003,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.21721875,"end":131.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.65971875,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.97534375,"end":315.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.33159375,"end":321.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.33096875,"end":321.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.38159375000004,"end":321.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.39846875,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.60471875,"end":446.99909375000004},{"speaker":"S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謝謝次長那其實呢一直在這個法律上的判斷只要是形式上已經符合秘密譬如說它上面有個密件嘛寫個密基本上就必須要做這個告發的行為了那至於實質上它到底符不符合這三個字叫因秘密這交給法官來判斷交給檢察官來判斷"},{"start":158.223,"end":185.82,"text":"所以當然外交部會有外交部的立場但其實這件事情非常的簡單就是我們看到他是一個密件這個密件在形式上已經符合這個所謂的秘密的文書所以外交部依他的職權就來告訴這個相關的檢查單位說這邊可能有密件洩漏的嫌疑所以我們都是這樣子在看一個案件10%的嫌疑、20%的嫌疑到檢察官起訴可能是5、60%的嫌疑法官確定這真的是問題了那就是100%了嘛"},{"start":186.721,"end":187.442,"text":"那我這邊重整了一下就是"},{"start":214.225,"end":235.054,"text":"在2022年的時候習近平有跟普丁見面後來俄羅斯也入侵了烏克蘭後來他有在2023年的時候去跑去敘利亞後來2023年不到幾天哈馬斯的攻擊就發生了所以對我來講其實更重要的事情可能不是中國去建這些可能跟台灣有關的友邦"},{"start":235.774,"end":259.02,"text":"而是去見到一些跟中國更為靠近的一些國家所以這個對我來講有時候我們今天要看的這一個框架可能不太在於說像他去法國這件事情而是他如果在這一個行程當中他又跑去了一些其他國家我覺得這可能會是比較重要的事那所以呢像這一個跟拜登會面像這個是我們的民主同盟的國家"},{"start":259.861,"end":264.986,"text":"沈伯洋表示,他並沒有在短期內提及清台計劃。這與戰爭的發生沒有關係,而是一種承諾,例如台海的穩定之類的。這次我在《夜報》也看到蠻多討論說,他到底跟馬克宏討論的"},{"start":278.439,"end":279.46,"text":"習近平訪歐後國安之影響"},{"start":298.08,"end":314.859,"text":"為什麼呢?就是因為我覺得以這個外交部的立場或者以次長的立場來講就是現在南海的這一個局勢跟我們今天本來要討論台海局勢嘛就是說他今天訪歐跟台海局勢的關係這個南海的局勢跟台海的局勢比起來不知道現在在研判上面哪一個比較危險"},{"start":317.563,"end":332.955,"text":"我個人覺得在南海的可能是比較危險一點的好那謝謝次長這個你跟這一個我們的這一個這個美國相關的判斷是一致的他們認為現在南海的風險其實是非常非常高的那在南海風險比較高的狀況之下"},{"start":334.156,"end":354.867,"text":"我們現在其實中國跟菲律賓之間的衝突其實非常的多那我們也可以看到這個在前面他們好幾次的這一個國際上的一些這個協定或者說這個一些仲裁的一些結果中國不願意接受那接下來這一個夏立遠在2024年3月去訪中之後回來這個應該還不到回來的時候就是馬上就丟出了太平島這樣的一個議題"},{"start":359.809,"end":377.803,"text":"因為太平島之所以重要是因為太平島在南海爭議裡面特別重要它不是對我國重要而已它對菲律賓也很重要對中國也很重要所以這件事情對我來講反而有可能有更高度的一個重要性是因為如果我們今天在太平島上面的"},{"start":379.204,"end":405.218,"text":"所作所為中國可能會被拿去利用但我這邊也是要強調一件事情我完全不反對說去太平島這件事我覺得這個是以我們的各個委員如果有人想要去這絕對是他的權利而且他想要去那邊看什麼東西這絕對是在他的職責範圍之內我比較擔心的事情是因為國台辦之前有發出一個聲明說他很高興這一個我們現在有人可以跟我們共同守護這個相關的主權"},{"start":407.139,"end":436.078,"text":"所以中國想要趁這個機會吃豆腐所以當然我們現在有委員要去這是他們的權利但不知道外交部有沒有什麼一些研判的一些措出告訴我們這些要出發的委員說我們今天去的時候的過程要怎樣才不會在國際上被利用因為我們可以預判說中國有可能會發出各式各樣的聲明去利用這個出訪但如果我們把這個出訪先定調好不讓他利用的話那這個出訪反而會變得非常有意義"},{"start":436.818,"end":459.349,"text":"所以不知道外交部在這上面有沒有一些研判然後給這些能夠出發的委員能夠讓他們知道說有什麼事情可以做什麼事情不能做在整個南海的局勢上面基本上我們的立場一直是堅定的太平島就是我們的主權、領土的主權不論在國際法、海洋法來說這都是沒有疑問的"},{"start":460.626,"end":482.508,"text":"那麼尊重立法委員如果要去訪問自己的國土我們是相當相當的尊重中間如果需要外交部協助的地方呢因為外交部會協助如果立法院到海外的話我們每一個道義國家我們都會協助但是到了太平島可能是已經不是我們的範圍之內我們予以高度的祝福"},{"start":483.109,"end":483.829,"text":"高度的祝福"},{"start":498.117,"end":526.031,"text":"那我最後一個稍微再給我30秒很不好意思就是目前我比較擔心的還有另外一件事情就是在2024年現在因為以往我們有這個叫做幽靈的九二共識就是完全不知道在講什麼九二共識就生出來了那現在因為剛剛在延續這個南海衝突目前菲律賓這個一直在駁斥因為中國就一直在講說他們其實跟某一個將軍已經有一個某一個協定有一個新模式已經談好了所以談好了之後那現在這個人是找不到人"},{"start":526.81,"end":546.356,"text":"但是呢偏偏中國最近釋出了那個錄音然後就說你看我們就已經談了關於南海的局勢這一個將軍都已經講過什麼話那像這種幽靈式的這種法律戰因為以往中國在像金門水域他做的事情是我真的創造一個既定的事實他在用法律框架把它框下去但現在不是"},{"start":546.596,"end":546.616,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17341c8e58fbb410259f076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d97110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:09:17 - 10:17:28","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":491,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:17:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:09:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請鍾副主委還有周副主委。"],["主席：鍾副主委跟周副主委，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：黃委員早。"],["周副主任委員江杰：黃委員早。"],["黃委員建賓：兩位副主委早安。今天這個議題其實跟臺東有很多連結，雖然臺東人口少，可是族群特別多元，原住民以及客家族群都有，這邊就教兩位副主委一些問題。第一個，我想請教鍾副主委，我們這麼多年一直在推動語言的振興計畫，之前看到在基層，特別是幼兒教育有一定的成效，在這邊要給原民會肯定。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：不過我們還是有發現一些問題，有關2023年12月提出的一些原住民相關計畫，特別是在教會這邊的獎勵計畫，我們發現不管是在學校或是教會，回到家庭之後有一個問題，就是在家庭端沒辦法連結，大部分家庭說母語的比例還是不高，沒有辦法營造在家庭教育裡面說母語，這件事我覺得對母語發展相對重要。像在學校都會講，可是一個禮拜一堂課對他的母語發展很有限，除非原本就在部落裡面說族語，但在都會區裡面有沒有這樣的環境？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：在都會區我們還是有一些族語教學的相關工作，包括語言巢的推動。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝，我想這個部分還是要再加強。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員建賓：另外，我看到今天的工作報告，有些不瞭解的地方想請教兩位副主委。在客委會客家公共傳播基金會的報告裡面提到113年編列1,500萬的預算投入新媒體運用，你們預計增額40個人來完成相關的計畫；原民會編列的是4,000萬，增額25員，那你要做的成效大概在哪邊？因為早上不管是召委或是其他委員也提到很多，在數據上我們並沒有辦法看到，原民會是不是可以說明一下4,000萬要達到的效果是哪些？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這部分請瑪拉歐斯董事長說明。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員，4,000萬的部分我們有一些項目。我們是提六年的中長程計畫，假設原民會核定，我們可以有2億的預算去推動整個數位發展，包括社群媒體的經營、網路電視的經營，朝這個方向去執行。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝董事長的說明。我們都知道現在年輕人在網路使用這塊，特別是自媒體愈來愈頻繁，我們看到的所有計畫都是針對有線電視的收入，可是其實沒有考慮到年輕人這一塊，我覺得這是未來也要再著重的地方。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們現在經營新媒體，也就是網路媒體，我們對年輕人的吸收黏著度主要放在跟他們話題相近的地方，包括音樂、次文化、其他等等，這部分我們目前也都一直持續進行。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝董事長說明。董事長，我補充一下，我想要藉著這個機會，對本席擔任鄉長的時候原住民族文化事業基金會對大武鄉的協助表達謝意，本席過去四年擔任鄉長有發行兩張原住民專輯。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：你說……"],["黃委員建賓：對，這張還有入圍傳藝金曲獎，謝謝你們願意給一個漢人鄉長機會來推廣原住民的文化。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們都是這邊的原民。"],["黃委員建賓：本席特別介紹製作這兩張專輯的主要原因是我們用的成本並不高，我記得這張是補助50萬，第二張是林班歌的部分，也是50萬，我們用這樣的預算，最主要是讓民眾參與這件事情，讓人覺得母語可以透過不同的方式來呈現，最重要是讓各個年齡、族群都能加入，我想這是過去我們嘗試也算很成功的方式，希望這方面我們可以繼續努力，我想要謝謝原民會過去對大武鄉的協助。","另外，我想再占用一點時間請教客委會的部分。"],["周副主任委員江杰：是，承蒙委員。"],["黃委員建賓：副主委，上次本席有提到臺東是一個多元的移民社會，跟主委聊的時候有說臺東的族群比較特別，因為腔調比較多元，針對少數使用不同客語腔調的協助，未來有沒有相關的推動計畫？有些是四縣腔、有些是海陸腔，我們在教育上都是一種方式，未來在這一塊有沒有加強的地方？有沒有什麼規劃？"],["周副主任委員江杰：承蒙委員的指教。其實我講的海陸腔在客家腔調裡面算是少數，但是在推動的部分，比如在客家文化重點發展區，北部山區的鄉鎮主要是講海陸腔，所以除了主要使用的四縣腔之外，我們在都市、客家文化重點發展區還有推廣不相同的腔調，我們跟教育部在學校方面、家庭方面都有使用不相同的在地腔調推廣客家語言。"],["黃委員建賓：另外再請教副主委，客委會推動客語薪傳制度，現在臺東縣約有40名取得資格認證的教學者，但是年紀都很大了，未來在教學上會面臨斷層的問題，現在年輕人使用網路這麼高，你們未來是不是有編列預算啟動線上教學跟認證？"],["周副主任委員江杰：客委會一直有在網路上推廣客家語言教學，剛剛委員提到年紀的部分，有關地方上傳承客家母語的老師，這件事我們會儘量協助，感謝委員指教。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝副主委。副主委，本席剛剛提的兩個案子是相對的，不管是原民會或是客委會，其實在推廣語言文化上，流行是個很重要的元素，未來是不是會有像我們之前看的「茶金」電影，讓更多人來瞭解客家文化？未來客委會是不是打算繼續推串連平台，透過戲劇、電影或實境秀，讓更多人能夠瞭解客家文化？我想這真的是哈客啦。在此也要期許客委會、原民會未來在文化推廣上能夠繼續加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位副主委，謝謝黃建賓委員，也請黃委員暫代主席。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：接下來請高金召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝我想這個部分都是還是要再加強的是 是那另外我想要再請教就是說我看到今天的工作報告這是我早上看到的那我想有些不了解的地方我想要請教兩位主委"},{"start":149.195,"end":170.009,"text":"那在我們的那個客戶公共傳播基金會裡面提到是在113年要編列1500萬的預算來投入在我們新媒體運用那你們預計要增額40個人來完成相關的一些計畫那原民會你編列的是4000萬你增額25元"},{"start":172.631,"end":172.791,"text":"市委委員"},{"start":201.414,"end":228.494,"text":"我們有四千萬的部分我們有一些項目對,我們報告委員就是我們提六年的中長程計畫那原民會假設合訂我們我們可以有兩億的預算去推動整個數位的發展包括社群媒體的經營包括網路電視的經營朝這個方向去執行"},{"start":229.294,"end":246.569,"text":"謝謝董事長你說明我們都知道其實現在在年輕人在網路使用這塊特別是自媒體越來越頻繁那我們所看到的所有的計畫都是針對我們有線電視的收入可是對於外面年輕人這一塊其實我們沒有考慮到我覺得這是未來也要再著重的地方"},{"start":248.231,"end":265.949,"text":"報告委員就是我們現在經營新媒體就是網路媒體那我們對年輕人的吸收黏著度主要放在跟他們話題相近的地方包括音樂包括次文化包括其他等等部分我們這個部分目前也都一直在持續進行"},{"start":267.05,"end":282.822,"text":"謝謝董事長說明 董事長我這邊補充一下我想要藉著這些謝謝當時我在本席當任鄉長的時候我們的那個原住民族文化事業基金會對大樓鄉的協助本席擔任鄉長過去四年有發行了兩張的原住民專輯"},{"start":283.963,"end":288.306,"text":"本席會做這兩張專輯的這個特別介紹最主要原因是其實我們用的成本並不高這張我記得是補助50萬然後還有下一張"},{"start":306.277,"end":331.087,"text":"第二張這是林班哥的部分也是50萬的那我們用兩張我們用這樣的預算然後讓最主要是讓民眾參與這件事情讓他們覺得說母語的方式其實可以透過不同的方式來呈現最重要是讓各個年齡族群都能夠加入我想這個方法是過去我們嘗試也很算成功的方式那希望這方面我們可以繼續來努力我想要謝謝原民會過去對大樓鄉的協助"},{"start":332.668,"end":338.98,"text":"那另外這邊我想再再一點點時間我想請教課委會的部分是 許莫維來"},{"start":343.389,"end":364.967,"text":"副主委 上次本席提到台東是一個多元的移民社會那上次跟我們主委聊的時候就是說當時台東的族群比較特別因為他的腔調有比較多元因為我們針對說少數使用不同客語腔調的協助未來有沒有相關的推動計畫就是有些是四線腔也有海線腔那我們在教育都是一種方式嘛"},{"start":365.327,"end":392.006,"text":"那未來在這一塊有沒有要加強的地方?有沒有什麼規劃?好,希望委員會的指教其實我講的合流控制的才是恰恰控制的比較少數的啦但是推動的部分主要 比如說我們的種田發展企業被騙的三家鄉親主要不會說合流控所以我們除了主要使用的私人控制外我們才渡時到我們恰恰種田發展企業還有"},{"start":392.807,"end":399.65,"text":"另外也要再請教副主委我們向課委會推動課宇的這個制度傳訊傳的制度因為台中縣現在擁有40名取得資格的這個認證的教學者但是他年紀都很大了"},{"start":418.976,"end":440.527,"text":"在教學上未來會面臨一個斷層的問題那現在的年輕使用網路這麼高你們未來是有便利預算在啟動在線上教學跟認證這一塊?哈佛市市場優財妙如東北在推廣演藝學與藝學教學但是特化委員提到的年期的部分都處於演藝體放手傳訊演藝學與母藝的心臟所以請演藝隊請留在談判上謝謝委員主席"},{"start":448.951,"end":477.33,"text":"副主委 副主委本席剛才提到兩個案子其實相對的就是不管是原民會或是客委會其實有一個很重要的元素在推廣語言文化上流行是一個很重要的元素那未來是不是像我們之前看到那個查經的這個電影讓更多人來了解台灣的客家文化那這個是不是未來客委會有打算繼續推這個串聯的名台讓我們的戲劇或電影或者是實境秀來讓客家文化能夠更多人來了解我想這個真的是哈客啦齁"},{"start":477.95,"end":489.562,"text":"那這邊也要期許我們客會會跟我們園民會那未來在文化土壤上能夠繼續加油謝謝好 謝謝兩位副主委謝謝金平委員也請金平委員代召委好嗎謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17349f1bb9b02064fdc0076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d9616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:02:36 - 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二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":394,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:09:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:02:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時2分）我請原民會副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，我想請問一下，前幾天的新聞，今年5月份巴宰族向原民會申請成為臺灣第十七族，有沒有這件事情？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["張委員宏陸：最後也是沒有，還沒有成功嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，我們已經受理他們的申請，我們親自到南投，我們派處長去受理他們希望能夠被列為原住民族的申請正名。"],["張委員宏陸：你要知道我今天為什麼特別問這個，因為有很多語言快速在流失啦，像巴宰族也不是只在南投啊，他在臺中也很多喔。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，新竹以南到南投都有。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，其實他很多也都在臺中，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：有一個問題是，依照現在的政策跟法令規定，如果他不在我們認定的族裡面，對於他傳統語言的補助、教學，我們就沒有辦法補助很多，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，目前的平埔族也不是法定原住民族，但是我們從98年開始有一個推動小組，就語言文化的部分都有協助、補助，這10年來大概已經有超過10億元補助語言的復振。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，就我手頭上的資料，雖然是有補助，但是補助的金額沒有像其他族群那麼多喔，而且像這個巴宰族，他在2011年本來要去參加我們的文學獎，結果主辦方就說巴宰族並非官方承認的民族，所以取消他的資格，有很多法令上的問題，是不是啊？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前好像也會遇到這個狀況，不過我更正一下，剛剛講的是10年來大概一億多，不是10億。"],["張委員宏陸：我正要問你耶，你趕快說了，我手頭上的資料就沒這麼多！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：只有一億多而已。"],["張委員宏陸：我正要問你。我為什麼要跟你講這個，你知道嗎？比如說，語言發展法裡面有一個原住民族瀕危語言的搶救計畫，你知道族語的師徒制，有沒有這個事情？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個非常好，這個可以讓很多原來不會說的人，透過這個，讓很多年輕的一代，很快就學會他的族語，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，沒有錯，師徒制運作起來還滿成功的。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，你看邵族的師徒制就好像有兩、三個很厲害，所以我現在要說的是，雖然有一些像巴宰族或其他族群還沒有變成正式成立的族，不過語言文化的流失現在是很快速的，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛，在這個情況之下，我們要不要在法令許可的範圍內，比如說像師徒制的這個方式，不然再過幾年，這些語言都不見了耶，巴宰族的語言、什麼族的語言都不見了！他雖然現在還沒有被官方正式承認，不過這些語言我們必須要留下來吧？這些文化我們必須要留下來吧？不然哪一天你跟他講說我承認你，但是承認後他的文化什麼都沒了，甚至還沒等到你們承認之前，可能他什麼都沒有了！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為憲判字第17號已經把他們列為南島語系民族的後裔，所以如果政策決定，這個計畫專案我們應該可以在語言文化的部分挹注更多。"],["張委員宏陸：所以現在可不可以做？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該是可以做，而且現在也針對他們希望登記正名為原住民的部分，其實我們從98年就開始做，只是經費部分可能不是挹注那麼多。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道你們之前有做，你們也有去做巴宰族這些，還去找他們的耆老，甚至有錄音等等，保存他們的語言。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["張委員宏陸：我都知道，但語言是活的，語言不是在收音機、錄音帶或YouTube裡面，這好像就變成歷史了，對不對？這些人都是活的，對不對？我的意思是，在法令許可的範圍內，雖然他還沒有正式成為我們原住民族中的一族，不過在語言文化上，我覺得你們可以跟文化部合作，大家一起找經費、拿錢，把這些語言文化留下來，我覺得這才是我今天跟你說的重點。他還沒有成為原住民族的一族，沒有錯！但你們應該也可以跟文化部一起找資源或什麼，至少把這個語言文化留下來，我覺得一年花不了多少錢，像師徒制一年也沒花多少錢，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得我們要先積極處理這一塊，不知道您的看法為何？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，我贊同委員的說法，所以之前我們也跟文化部合作，對於臺南北頭洋的文化做復振。"],["張委員宏陸：你們有做一點沒有錯，但我認為還做得不及格，你至少要做到及格，把文化保存下來，還有很多啊！不是只有單一的，要全面趕快搶救這些，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，沒有問題，我們會把它放在我們跟文化部的平臺上做討論。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，也謝謝鍾副主委。","繼續請黃建賓委員質詢。待會在召委高金素梅質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對"},{"start":94.366,"end":119.028,"text":"我們目前的拼譜組也不是法定原住民族但是我們從98年開始有一個推動小組就語言文化部分都有協助補助這10年來大概也是已經超過10億的補助語言的附贈我跟你講喔就我手頭上的資料雖然是有補助但是補助的金額沒有像其他的族群那麼多"},{"start":120.5,"end":138.248,"text":"而且像這個八載族他在2011年他本來要去參加我們文學獎結果主辦方就說八載族並非官方承認的民族所以取消他的資格"},{"start":140.119,"end":168.48,"text":"有很多法令上的問題是不是目前好像也會遇到這個狀況不過我更正一下剛剛講的是10年來大概1億多不是10億我正要問你你趕快說了我手頭上的資料就沒這麼多我為什麼要跟你講這個你知道嗎比如說有一個我們語言發展法裡面這個原住民族"},{"start":169.697,"end":192.789,"text":"語言的搶救計畫你知道這個族語的師徒制有沒有這個事情有我覺得這個非常好欸是這個讓很多原來不會然後他這個啊讓很多這個年輕的一代啦年輕的一代他馬上很快的學會他的他的族語對不對對沒有錯對師徒制運作起來還蠻成功的"},{"start":194.028,"end":221.405,"text":"對啊 你看那個少族的師徒之就非常齁兩三個很厲害所以我現在我要說的就是說雖然啦齁有一些像八載族或其他有一些族他還沒有變成正式成立的族不過語言文化的流失現在是很快速的是 對不對是 沒有錯沒有錯嘛齁在這個情況之下"},{"start":222.543,"end":246.542,"text":"我們要不要在法令許可的範圍內啊比如說像這個師徒制的這個不然我看你再過幾年這些語言都不見了耶八載族的語言什麼樣的語言都不見了他雖然現在還沒有官方正式的承認不過這些語言我們必須要留下來吧這些文化我們必須要留下來吧不然哪一天你"},{"start":247.222,"end":276.953,"text":"你跟他講說我承認你承認你你的文化什麼都沒了甚至還沒等到你承認的話可能他什麼都沒有各位報告因為憲判是17號就已經把他們列為是南島語系民族的後裔所以其實如果政策決定這個計畫的狀況我們應該在語言文化的部分就可以更多的依註在這個裡面所以現在可不可以做應該是可以做而且我們現在也針對他們開始在開始登記希望能夠證明原住民這個部分"},{"start":277.318,"end":304.605,"text":"那我們其實從98年就開始做只是這個經費的部分可能挹注的不是那麼多我知道你們之前有做你們有去做很多的這一些你有去找他們的棋老甚至有錄音有什麼有保存他們的語言嘛我都知道嘛但語言是活的嘛語言不是在收音機裡面錄音帶裡面或YouTube裡面你去這好像就變成歷史了啊"},{"start":305.345,"end":330.084,"text":"對不對這些人都是活的啊 對不對我的意思是說在法定許可的範圍雖然他還沒有正式成為我們原住民族中的一族不過語言文化我覺得你們也可以去跟文化部合作啊大家一起找經費拿錢把這些語言文化要留下來啊我覺得這個才是我今天跟你說的重點"},{"start":330.885,"end":344.084,"text":"他還沒有成為原住民族的一組沒有錯不過語言文化你們應該也可以去找文化部去找什麼一起找資源一起找至少把這個語言文化留下來我覺得這個一年花不了多少錢呢"},{"start":345.305,"end":363.915,"text":"你像司徒志一年也花沒多少錢啊對不對我覺得我們要積極的先處理這一塊啦不知道您的看法我贊同委員的說法所以之前我們也跟文化部還有合作就是對那個台南的北投洋也有對他們的這樣的文化做附贈"},{"start":365.796,"end":387.147,"text":"我說的你們有做一點沒有錯但做到我認為還不及格啦你要多做到幾個你至少要及格把文化保存下來啊那有很多啊不是只有單一啊我要全面的趕快去搶救這些啦好不好沒有問題我們會把它放在我們跟文化部的平台把它做一個討論好謝謝委員好謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝總副主委"}]}},{"id":"152420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17349caa3923bb0f1a26076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:55:26 - 10:02:28","影片長度":"00:07:02","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":422,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:02:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:55:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時55分）謝謝主席，原民會有請。"],["主席：有請副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：副主委早安。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，委員早。"],["牛委員煦庭：上次我質詢的時候就有討論到搬遷的問題，今天針對勞動權益的部分來做一下探討。原住民語言傳播大樓花了17億的公帑，去年12月底在青埔已經上梁，當然還有一段時間，大概在2025年就可以遷入，但是今天討論的重點是，搬家茲事體大嘛！我想請問一下，原文會跟原語會兩個要進到桃園青埔的新大樓，總共有多少員工受到影響？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該是全部吧！"],["牛委員煦庭：全部嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是原文會的270個人跟原語會的46個人，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：全部都要搬家，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：那裡算是永久辦公室。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，你們現在針對這些員工都做了調查，他們都住哪裡？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是不是請董事長來回答一下？"],["馬耀‧谷木董事長：委員你好，基本上原語會大部分同仁分散在北部，包括桃園、基隆及雙北市。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，所以看起來影響應該有限囉？因為我們現在講北北桃、北北基桃都是所謂的一日生活圈，會有哪些衝擊？你們收到哪些不滿的意見？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：第一個就是住宅部分，第二個是交通，還有一個是兒女教育。"],["牛委員煦庭：兒女教育？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概就分這幾個問題，我先從交通的問題來探討，因為照理來說，青埔已經算是桃園交通相對便利的地方了，基本上，機場捷運、高鐵等等，算是滿被重視的地方，他們交通的問題是哪一部分呢？還是離現在住的地方太遠了，要通勤？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員再做說明，現在是因為大部分的同仁要到便利的地方仍有一段路，他不一定是在那個主要的交通路線，這是第一個，我們做盤點的時候，有做過實際的盤點。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講清楚一點，你說他現在是從臺北出來，然後要到桃園不方便？還是從桃園要到你這個新的大樓不方便？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：是從住的地方，因為他們分散在不同的大臺北地區嘛，所以這是第一個，要搭方便的是有一段路，所以這是一個。第二個就是，從他們住的地方至少要轉三次左右，這個是在時間上跟經費上會有他們的考慮。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以綜上，我剛剛聽前面委員的詢答，你們說有15%的人是不願意搬遷的對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：對，我們上次調查是15%。"],["牛委員煦庭：這很可怕耶，因為我剛剛聽到你回答的時候，你講說如果他們不願意的話，就要直接資遣，這個不太好啦，你要不要再說明一下？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：不是，這是他不願意，如果他不願意到新的工作地點，當然就是依法資遣他，要付他的福利嘛。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天討論這個題目，其實就是希望配套很完整啦，如果真的是我們這樣子，然後資遣了15%的員工，且大部分都是原住民弟兄的話，這恐怕會引起很大的社會爭議啦，所以你不要這樣說。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是，委員，我們再補充一下，就是我們在9次跟工會的討論中，已經達成更多的共識，越來越多的員工會移動。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據勞動基準法第十條之一的規定，調動工作不得違反勞動契約等等，其中有一條是講調動地點過遠的時候，雇主應予必要之協助，所以其實法源上給了原民會一定的空間，我覺得應該要編列合理的交通預算來做一些補貼。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，這個具體事實如果調查出來後，整體應該是沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們現在有方向了嗎？這我不得不先說一下，因為你報告裡面第3頁有一個滿好笑的，你說因應搬遷權益，要先興建合宜住宅，我跟你講，興建合宜住宅是好事，員工宿舍本席是支持，不管是產業也好，政府也好，給予員工一定的住宿基本待遇，本來就是照顧勞工的一環，這一點我是非常贊成的，可是問題是你現在才講說我要研擬興建合宜住宅的方案，會不會有點太晚了？2025都要搬家了，那你合宜住宅什麼時候才蓋好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這是他們的需求，有提出來，4月23號他們來我們會裡面時有提出這個需求，不過這個方案都需要評估，因為有沒有土地，這個都要去面對、處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在你既然提了，方向上我是不反對的，但是你既然提了，那有沒有明確的時間？合宜住宅的部分。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為這個部分具體的計畫，我們請他們在5月22號再提供給我們。"],["牛委員煦庭：5月22號再提供給你們，但它明年就要搬進去了，那等合宜住宅蓋好，這中間三、五年要怎麼辦？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為合宜住宅本來就比較難一些。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是我要講的第二個問題，就是以長線來看，如果你有辦法跟桃園市政府妥善的合作，本席非常支持，你需要我幫忙協助、溝通，我也樂意扮演這樣的角色，看看有沒有好的土地可以做這樣的配套，但是這中間總有過渡期嘛，這需要三到五年，也許更久，這中間的過渡期，你的方案是什麼？現在看起來，剛剛在答詢的過程中其實講得很清楚，就是通勤的問題嘛，從臺北怎麼樣快速的送到青埔，中間轉三次車是不是會很麻煩，怎麼樣規劃一定的路線，或者是提供一定的交通津貼，這個部分，你們現在有沒有方案跟草案？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分等基金會把計畫提給我們，我們大概就會編在我們的預算裡面。"],["牛委員煦庭：會編預算嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你要補充嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，其實我們現在優先的是社會住宅的方案，桃園市政府也願意配比比例優先給我們兩會，合宜住宅其實是目前比較後進的方案，比較快的是社會住宅。"],["牛委員煦庭：社會住宅？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：優先搬入社會住宅就對了！好，本席要提醒，因為桃園的社會住宅應該需求量也滿大的，第二個，桃園境內的大眾運輸還有待加強，這當然我們希望中央可以全力來支持。但即便有社會住宅，你可能還是會遇到通勤的問題，再怎麼樣有這些政策的安排，都會有它的過渡期，所以我希望針對過渡期可以看到一定的專案預算編列，不管你是講說要補貼通勤的交通，因為轉車的次數變多了，也許你補貼1200月票或怎麼樣，也是一件好事，或者是輔導租屋嘛，你講社會住宅是一種，但不見得所有人都住得到嘛，這個還是有排序的問題嘛，那沒有住社會住宅的人，是不是要輔導租屋？透過包租代管或什麼周邊的，它可能距離很近嘛。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員沒錯，我們在近期會提前用包租代管的方式，讓同仁能夠有居住的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：你的目標很單純，就是這個15%最好可以歸零，不要有員工因為你的搬遷而離開，這才是正確的方向啦。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員，現在這個比例大概更低了。"],["牛委員煦庭：但你剛才講之前是15%，聽起來很恐怖耶。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員，因為之前我們的調查確實是這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：目標就用多種政策手段，尤其是過渡期要把它安排好啦，我們希望這個搬遷的工程可以順利，如果你需要跟桃園市政府來做溝通，我非常樂意扮演這樣的角色，可以嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是，謝謝委員。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝副主委、兩位董事長。","繼續我們請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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要通勤剛委員在做說明現在目前是因為大部分的同仁這樣要到搭便利的地方有一段路他不一定是在那個主要的交通路線這是第一個所以我們做那個盤點之後有做那個實際的盤點"},{"start":134.216,"end":148.255,"text":"你講清楚一點,你說他現在是從臺北出來,然後到桃園不方便,還是從桃園要到你這個新的大樓不方便?是從住的地方,因為他分散在不同的大臺北區區嘛,所以這是第一個要到"},{"start":149.116,"end":152.258,"text":"我剛剛聽前面委員的答詢你們說15%的人是不願意搬遷的就對了"},{"start":171.357,"end":186.543,"text":"我們上次調查是15%這很可怕因為我剛剛聽到你回答的時候你講說如果他們不願意的話就要直接支錢這個不太好啦不是就是如果他不願意如果他不願意到新的工作地點那當然就是依法支錢他要付他的福利啦"},{"start":187.123,"end":205.618,"text":"我們今天要討論這個題目其實就是希望配套很完整啦如果真的是我們這樣子然後之前的15%的員工還大部分都是原住民弟兄的話這恐怕會引起很大的社會爭議啦所以不要這樣說啦我們再補充一下就是我們在9次跟工會的討論已經達成更多的共識越來越多員工會移動"},{"start":206.999,"end":230.098,"text":"這根據勞動基準法10條之一的規定這個調動工作不得違反勞動契約以及等等那其中有一條想調動地點過遠的時候僱主應與必要之協助所以其實法院上給了這個原民會一定的空間我覺得應該要編列合理的交通運算來做一些補貼這個具體事實如果調查出來後整理應該是沒有問題你們現在有方向沒有"},{"start":231.254,"end":258.612,"text":"因為我這我不得不先說一下因為你報告裡面第三頁有個還蠻好笑的你說因應搬遷權益要先興建合宜住宅我跟你講興建合宜住宅是好事啊就是員工宿舍本期是支持不管是產業也好政府也好給員工一定的這個住宿的基本待遇本來就是照顧勞工的一環這是我是非常贊成的可是問題是你現在才講說我要研擬興建合宜住宅的方法會不會有點太晚啊2025都要搬家了那你合宜住宅什麼時候才來因為包括就是他們的需求有提在"},{"start":259.449,"end":278.671,"text":"4月23號他們來我們會裡面有提出這個需求不過這個方案都需要評估因為有沒有土地這個都要去做面對處理好那你既然提了有沒有方向上我是不反對的但是你既然提了那裡有沒有明確的時間合一住宅的這部分因為這個部分的具體具體的計畫我們請他們在5月22號再提供給我們"},{"start":279.571,"end":308.102,"text":"五月二十二號再提供給我們他明年就要搬進去了那這等合一住才蓋好這中間三、五年要怎麼辦因為合一住可能是比較難一些這是我要講的第二個問題就是說你長線來你如果有辦法跟桃園市政府妥善的合作本席非常支持你需要我幫忙協助溝通我也樂意扮演這樣的角色看看有沒有好的土地可以做這樣的配套但是中間總有過渡期嘛這三到五年也許更久這中間的過渡期你的方案是什麼現在看起來剛剛在答詢的過程中其實講得很清楚就是通勤的問題嘛是"},{"start":309.082,"end":322.247,"text":"從臺北怎麼樣快速的送到青埔中間是不是轉三次車會不會很麻煩怎麼樣規劃一定的路線或者是提供一定的交通津貼你們這部分現在有沒有方案跟草案這個部分等基金會把計畫提給我們我們大概就會編在我們的預算裡面"},{"start":328.933,"end":343.949,"text":"我們現在優先的是社會住宅的方案那桃園市政府也願意配比比例給優先給我們兩會這樣那合一住宅其實是我目前想比較後進的方案比較快是社會住宅"},{"start":344.269,"end":361.934,"text":"社會住宅優先搬入社會住宅就對了本期要提醒因為桃園的社會住宅應該需求量也蠻大第二個桃園境內的大眾運輸還有待加強這當然我們希望中央可以全力來支持但即便有社會住宅你可能還是會遇到通勤的問題再怎麼樣有政策的安排都會有過渡期"},{"start":363.795,"end":392.249,"text":"所以我希望過陸期我會看到一定的專案的預算的編列不管你是講說我補貼通勤的交通因為我轉車的次數變多了也許你補貼1200月票啊或怎麼樣也是一件好事或者是福島租屋嘛你講社會住宅是一種那不見得所有人都住得到嘛這個還是有這個排序的問題嘛那沒有住社會住宅的人是不是用福島租屋的包租代管或什麼周邊的他可能距離很近嘛 我也沒錯就是我們在近期會提前用包租代管的方式讓同仁能夠有住的"},{"start":393.553,"end":418.847,"text":"你的目標很單純就這個15%最好是可以歸零不要有員工因為你的搬遷而離開這才是正確的方向現在這個比例大概更低了那你不要講15%之前很恐怖因為之前我們的調查是這樣目標就是用多種政策手段而且尤其是過渡期要把它安排好我們希望這個搬遷的工程可以順利如果你需要跟桃園市政府來做溝通我非常樂意扮演這樣的角色 可以嗎謝謝委員好 謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":419.187,"end":420.272,"text":"好,謝謝劉全賢委員的質詢,謝謝副主委、兩位董事長"}]}},{"id":"152419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17348061362519b33e35ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d7aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:03:47 - 10:16:14","影片長度":"00:12:27","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":747,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:16:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:03:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時4分）謝謝主席，請幫我邀請部長。"],["主席：好，潘部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，關於大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討，其實在這個專題，我們還有很多想要就教於部長的，但是部長，我想還是延續剛剛柯委員所說的，這是最後一次在委員會的場合見面了，擔任部長七年多，我想是中華民國行憲以來任期最長的教育部長，前無古人，後大概也無來者了。"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！委員，後面還有人繼續啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：潘文忠部長的障礙高掛在這邊，即將卸任，各界對部長的表現也非常肯定，回顧七年多，有沒有什麼感言？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我自己一向是從事教育工作，從當小學老師到行政工作，我一直覺得事情可能做不完，但是看到的問題真的要逐一去面對。這幾年確實我跟我們部裡頭的同仁，大家就很多多年來可以解決、該解決但需要做處理的，包含像去年國教法、特教法，那關係到的是全面學校相關的運作等等，光子法就有六十幾部，像這些我都很謝謝同仁也看到現象，能夠逐一地去做處理，所以這部分我想教育是一棒接一棒，後續我相信新的團隊也會跟同仁繼續再努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我原本要再問你有什麼未竟之業，但我想很多事情都還有待我們再努力，當然沒辦法一次把所有的一蹴即成、所有的事情都完成。我想謝謝部長，在本席初就任立委之際，第一場的委員會質詢向部長爭取夜光天使延伸到寒暑假及國中生的一個試辦計畫，獲得部長的認同，當場允諾推動，如同國教署署長所說，試辦計畫8月就要上路，到時候我想有機會邀請部長一起到臺中、到學校一起瞭解試辦計畫的情況，順便給夜光天使的學生打氣、鼓勵，不知道未來有機會可以邀請你嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員為這些需求家庭的孩子爭取這個試辦，當然國中這部分，在過往，我覺得因為孩子比較大，但委員的這個提議，當時我覺得……因為夜光天使的情況我非常瞭解，確實幫到很多家庭比較沒辦法支撐孩子的一個措施，時間我想因為未定，只是我希望這個方案國教署跟委員這邊能夠就原來預定的8月，新的學年的試辦能夠順利展開，委員在地方也能夠持續地關注跟支持，這是一個好的方案，也照顧到很多學生。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。我常常一直在講，這個計畫也是希望我們在跟某些特定的團體、甚至是黑道組織搶孩子，我們希望能夠更認真、用心有這個機會、場域去關心每個孩子，讓孩子不要學壞，讓孩子能夠在學業的過程當中，或者是非學業的過程當中，能夠感受到我們有其他的資源在挹注他們。但是講到這個我就還是要再提到，其實剛剛的立法委員也都有提到，包括洪孟楷委員、萬美玲委員，他們都有在講，就是桃園這個霸凌案件，當然眾說紛紜，有人說這個孩子、霸凌者的背景可能有黑道組織的背景這樣的家庭環境，我們不確定，但我們非常關心，我想還是再一次拿出這樣的數據，108年到112年，我們的暴力事件跟偏差行為的通報，不管是國小、國中、高中，我們可以看到，可以說至少都2.3倍到4倍以上的成長，不敢說一定是教育有問題，因為整個不管是我們的社會風氣以及我們的電影文化，還有一些藝術去影響到他們，會有這樣子的一個偏差行為，都有可能，可是我們看到，在剪頭髮這個部分，這一次的案件令許多家長觸目驚心，一直紛紛傳這些影片給我們，讓我們沒辦法在這一次委員會，就主題上我們很想討論，但是這一次事件的突發性，讓我們必須慎重，我們還是希望在校園的霸凌事件，我們該如何防範？剛剛有人講到所謂的校安問題，我們可能要用到的是這些教官，可是現在我們也在努力心理輔導法，我們希望在這個部分、各個部分都應該要去著重如何去防範這部分，後續的一些心理輔導，不管是霸凌者跟被霸凌者，我們要去關心，學校有沒有去做相關人等的調查，以及他的背景調查，這部分有掌握嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，請委員給我一點點時間來報告一下。通報數字，我自己在這些年來，不管在性平事件等等，我強烈的要求一定要……那不是鼓勵，那叫課責，課責的意思是發現了就要通報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["潘部長文忠：不管先判斷它是真與否，我認為過去多年大家常常會說，這裡頭有好多好多黑數，所以委員剛才提到成長幾倍，本來政策就是課責。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我沒有批評啦！我相信把黑數找出來也是一件好事。"],["潘部長文忠：對、對、對。第二個，我也跟委員報告，這次長達一年左右的時間去對於校園霸凌防制準則做修改，這當中也確實做到幾項：第一個，師對生的部分，我們認為不要一直在這個裡頭，可以放在教師解聘不續聘的辦法當中來處理。其次，生對生的部分，就像剛才委員說的，一定要把它調查、處理，而且在這次的過程當中，我們也希望它伴有教育的意涵，而不是永遠就處罰了事，有時候這些事情可能不是到此為止，所以在這次生對生霸凌準則的修訂裡面，特別也有幾個相關輔助的機制，但一定要有一個非常清楚的調查小組去做事項的釐清跟後續的處置。第三點，我跟委員補充，委員在地方也知道，學校要面對這些調查等等，在人力、資源各方面其實常常是比較困窘的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，希望教育部能夠給予更多的資源。"],["潘部長文忠：所以在今年，我也特別針對霸凌、性平等等的事件，讓學校不要因為資源不足就比較便宜行事，所以今年我特別編了2.5億元，就是希望讓學校在所需的調查人力、資源等等的部分能夠有資源可以去做。所以我比較希望在這次的措施上面，也就是能夠支援學校，但在學校方面，我們希望能夠確實地依照準則，不要讓學生在這當中是被敷衍掉的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不要是落單的，我希望他有更多的支持，不管是網路事件的延燒，我的選區其實也有蠻多這樣因言語霸凌進而選擇休學的例子，我們都很擔心這樣的孩子落單了，在休學的過程當中，他可能就放棄學業，甚至不願意去學習，一個人才的培育真的不易。","當然，我們再回到剛剛所說的，就像柯志恩委員說的，我看到這些數據，其實我們也擔憂，國際生和國內生的關注，我們當然知道延攬人才的重要性，我們支持，但是我們希望在合理的前提下，以及剛剛所提出的這些數據上，我們一定要去好好瞭解到底誰是人才、誰是單純來打工，用著打工的名義來行使勞工這樣的政策，並不是真正讓我們來做一個教育、培育人才的一個政策，這個部分是有待我們做檢討的。","再來我想簡單地就教，世界上有這麼多國家，臺灣有哪些優勢來推動國際招生？其實我們大概也知道我們是劣勢，畢竟在這個部分上，我們提供這麼多的資金，就是希望能夠延攬人才，提高他們的意願，但是國際的趨勢，還有國家，各個國家有各個國家先天的產業優勢，都有可能影響到國際生的選擇。但我想問一下，最近我們有沒有什麼碰壁的地方？現在跟部長在討論的是香港的招生，5月9日的新聞，美國的媒體報導，臺灣大專院校被中聯辦打壓，取消在香港的招生活動；5月11日的新聞，港府憂慮賴政府兩岸論述，暫停我大學赴港招生宣傳，有這一類情事嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員先補充報告，對於國內學生，其實政府本來有很多措施，像拉近私立學校學雜費，這一些都是希望能夠提供幫助，包含賴總統有提國外學生的圓夢基金，其實這個概念也都是在培養我們自己的人才。委員所提到的，在最近這兩年我有觀察到，港澳的招生確實我們有面對一些可能來自於對岸政治上的措施，因為原本我們的人數，像香港的人數其實是一直在成長的，但尤其從去年111我就發現有降……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有降了？"],["潘部長文忠：這個現象與香港這些年受中國政治相關的因素，我覺得是有受到影響的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想就教育家的觀點，當然我們希望教育不要扯上政治，但是兩岸是否和平共存才是學生及家長選擇的重點，當然這個部分有多方的考量，但是我們看到實際的數據，110年到111年，我們的香港學生大概是九千多位，112年是七千八百多位，所以在這個部分，部長，在你即將卸任前，作為教育工作的領航者，你建議未來內閣應該如何解決？有沒有什麼因應之道？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，港澳跟中國的關係相信委員很瞭解，所以他們被影響是很直接的。對於兩岸青年學生的交流，教育部本來一直都持開放的態度，尤其疫情過後，像中國對他們的學位生有所限制，但是研修生，在112學年度又開始出現到臺灣來交換學生的情形，目前是兩千多位，這部分，我也跟委員報告，教育部其實在態度上、立場上一直都比較希望兩岸青年學生是應該要有這樣的交流機會，大陸學生到臺灣來求學的滿意度是很高的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想大家都在搶人才，我們一起來為臺灣努力。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：缺乏天然資源的臺灣，最重要的資產就是要培育人才，但是就像剛剛柯委員所提供的數據，其實我們聽到以後也很擔憂，國際生、國內生，我們也希望不要造成整個資源的偏差，我們當然支持臺灣要搶人才，但是我們也希望重視國內生的發展，以及很多人都申請學貸，你自己也知道，我們有提供一些學貸利率，我都知道，這些我們都關心，但是還是一種觀感的問題，我希望的是取得平衡，沒有對錯，只有對和更好而已，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝剛剛委員談到對國內學生學貸等方面的問題，這都是我們這幾年一直列為所謂重點的項目，委員也知道也有具體的措施，後面還要委員再持續支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，部長，一起加油。"],["潘部長文忠：減輕國內學生的負擔，這絕對是我們的政策，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.79034375,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SP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請邀請部長"},{"start":31.79,"end":58.395,"text":"羅廷瑋好部長謝謝大學推動國際招生台灣優華我們計畫的執行跟成效跟檢討其實在這個專題我們還有很多想要跟大家就教育部長但是部長我想還是延續我們剛剛柯委員所說的這是最後一次在委員會的一個場合見面那擔任部長7年多我想這是中華民國行縣以來任期最長的教育部長"},{"start":59.776,"end":64.402,"text":"潘文忠部長的障礙高掛即將卸任,各界對部長的表現也非常肯定。回顧7年多,有沒有什麼感言?"},{"start":76.493,"end":102.371,"text":"委員我自己一向就是從事教育工作 從當小學老師到行政工作我一直覺得事情可能做不完 但是看到的問題真的要逐一的去面對這幾年 確實我跟我們部裡頭的同仁 大家就很多年來可以解決 該解決啦 但需要做處理的 包含像去年 國教法 特教法"},{"start":102.671,"end":103.392,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":124.175,"end":150.721,"text":"好 我想原本要再問你有什麼未經之夜但我想很多事情都還有待我們再努力當然沒辦法一次把所有的一處集成所有的事情都完成但我想謝部長在本席初就任立委之際第一場的委員會質詢向部長爭取葉光天使延伸到寒暑假國中生的一個試班計畫獲得部長的認同當場允諾推動如同國教署署長所說試班計畫8月就要上路"},{"start":150.981,"end":162.784,"text":"到時候我想有機會邀請部長一起到台中到學校一起瞭解事辦計畫的一個情況順便給夜光天使的學生打氣鼓勵不知道未來有機會可以邀請你嗎"},{"start":163.885,"end":168.168,"text":"謝謝委員為這些需求家庭的孩子所爭取這個事辦當然國中的這部分在過往我覺得因為孩子比較大但委員這個提議當時我覺得因為夜光天使的情況我非常的了解確實幫到很多家庭比較沒辦法那麼可以支撐孩子的一個措施"},{"start":186.701,"end":186.741,"text":"主席"},{"start":203.87,"end":222.972,"text":"謝謝 我常常一直在講這個計畫也是希望我們在跟某些特定的團體甚至是黑道組織在搶孩子我們希望能夠更認真用心的有這個機會場域去關心每個孩子讓孩子不要學壞讓孩子能夠在這個學業的過程當中或者是非學業的過程當中能夠感受到我們有其他的資源在挹注他們"},{"start":224.454,"end":247.455,"text":"但是講到這個我就還是要再提到其實剛剛的立法委員也都有提到包括紅夢凱委員萬美玲委員他們都有在講就是桃園這一個霸凌案件那當然眾說紛紜有人說這個孩子霸凌者的這個背景是可能有黑道組織的背景家境這樣的環境我們不確定"},{"start":248.536,"end":266.165,"text":"但我們非常關心我想還是再一次拿出這樣的數據108年到112年我們的暴力事件跟偏差行為的通報從不管是國小國中高中我們可以看到可以說是至少都2.3倍到4倍以上的一個成長"},{"start":267.485,"end":287.122,"text":"這不敢說是一定是教育有問題因為整個不管是我們的社會風氣以及我們的電影文化還有一些藝術去影響到他們會有這樣子的一個偏差行為都有可能可是我們看到在剪頭髮這個部分在這一次的案件令許多的家長觸目驚心一直紛紛的傳這些影片給我們"},{"start":291.005,"end":308.556,"text":"主題上我們很想討論但是在這一次的事件的突發性讓我們必須慎重我們還是希望在校園的霸凌事件我們該如何防範剛剛有人講到所謂的校安問題我們可能要用到的是可能是這些教官可是現在我們也在努力心理輔導法"},{"start":309.477,"end":329.843,"text":"我們希望在這個部分各個部分都應該要去著重如何去防範這部分後續的一些心理輔導不管是霸凌者跟被霸凌者我們要去關心那學校有沒有去做相關的人等的一個調查以及他的背景調查這部分有掌握嗎是 謝謝委員委員就一點點時間我來報告一下"},{"start":331.764,"end":356.605,"text":"通報數字這個在我自己這麼這些年來不管在性平事件等等的我強烈的要求一定要那不是鼓勵那叫克責克責的意思是發現了就要通報不管先判斷它是真與否這個是我認為過去多年大家常常會說這裡頭有好多好多的黑數所以我剛才提到說成長幾倍這個本來政策就是克責"},{"start":357.946,"end":383.219,"text":"對 當然我沒有批評阿相信就是把黑素找出來也是一件好事阿第二個我也跟委員報告這一次長達一年左右的時間去對於校園霸凌防制準則做修改這當中也確實做到非常多第一個就是說師對生的部分我們認為不要一直在這個裡頭他放在教師解聘不續聘的辦法當中來處理那生對生這一次在剛才委員說的嘛"},{"start":384.119,"end":400.543,"text":"一定要把它調查處理而且呢在這次的過程當中我們也希望它伴有教育的意涵不是永遠就處罰了有時候這些事情可能不是到此為止所以在這次生對生的霸凌準則裡面的修訂裡面特別也有幾個輔助的相關的但一定要有一個非常清楚的調查小組去做事項的釐清跟做後續的組織那第三點我跟委員補充"},{"start":411.286,"end":411.426,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":428.832,"end":428.852,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":455.698,"end":478.489,"text":"是落單的我希望他是有更多的支持不管是網路事件的一個延燒到其實我的選區其實也蠻多有這樣子言語被霸凌進而選擇休學我們都很擔心這樣子孩子他落單了在這個休學的過程當中他可能會覺得沒有就放棄學業了甚至他不願意去學習一個人才的培育真的不易"},{"start":479.189,"end":508.309,"text":"當然我們再回到剛剛所說的就像柯志文委員在說的我看到這些數據其實我們也擔憂國際生還有國內生的一個關注我們當然知道要延攬人才的一個重要性我們支持但是我們希望在合理的一個前提下以及剛剛所提出的這些數據上我們一定要去好好了解到底誰是人才誰是單純來打工用著打工的名義來行使勞工這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":509.069,"end":533.828,"text":"並不是來真正讓我們來做一個教育培育人才的一個政策我想這個部分是可以有待我們做檢討的那再來我想就簡單的就叫世界上這麼多的國家臺灣有哪些優勢來推動國際招生其實我們大概也都知道我們是劣勢啦畢竟在這個部分上我們提供這麼多的一些資金就是希望能夠延攬人才的意願但是國際的趨勢還有國家"},{"start":535.97,"end":550.75,"text":"各個國家有各個國家他們可能有自己先天的產業優勢都有可能影響到國際生他的一個選擇但我想問一下最近我們有沒有什麼碰壁的地方現在跟部長在討論的是香港的招生5月9號的新聞美國的媒體報導"},{"start":554.715,"end":566.793,"text":"說這個臺灣大專院校被中聯辦打壓取消在香港的招生活動5月11的新聞港府憂慮賴政府兩岸論述暫停我大學赴港招生宣傳有這一類情勢嗎"},{"start":568.101,"end":568.121,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"},{"start":589.58,"end":602.209,"text":"最近這兩年我有觀察港澳的招生確實我們有面對一些可能來自於對岸政治上的一些措施因為原本我們的人數像香港這個人數其實是一直在成長但這尤其從去年111我就發現有降那這個現象我覺得跟香港這些年已經在中國這邊的政治相關的我覺得受到影響"},{"start":618.001,"end":643.528,"text":"我想就教育家的觀點當然我們希望教育不要扯上政治但是兩岸是否和平共存才是學生以及家長選擇的重點我想這個部分當然有多方的考量但是我們看到實際的數據110年到111年我們的香港的學生大概9000多位112年7800多位所以在這個部分我想部長在即將卸任前就教育工作的一個領航者"},{"start":643.848,"end":670.365,"text":"建議未來內閣應該如何解決有沒有什麼因應知道委員這個因為港澳跟中國的關係委員這個很了解所以他們直接被影響的是很直接那對於兩岸青年學生的這個交流我想教育部本來就一直都持開放的尤其疫情過後像他們學生有所限制中國這邊直接就限制但是研修生在112學年度又開始出現"},{"start":671.926,"end":672.807,"text":"大陸學生到台灣來求學的滿意度是很高"},{"start":690.165,"end":717.487,"text":"我想人才啦大家都在搶人才我們一起來為臺灣努力啦那我想催伐天然資源的臺灣最重要的資產我們就是要培育人才但是我們也希望就像剛剛科委員所提供的數據其實我們聽到以後我們也很擔憂國際生國內生我們也希望不要造成整個資源的偏差我們當然支持臺灣要搶人才但是我們也希望重視國內生的一些發展以及很多人都學貸啦"},{"start":718.167,"end":719.308,"text":"對國內學生減輕負擔絕對是我們的政策"}]}},{"id":"152418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17344e6407b8e809d7f3a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d5d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:04:48 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委員好副局長剛剛問到的是有關於外交的部分那所以說我就直接因為今天時間比較短我就直接進入有關於520現在我們所面臨的除了在外交上面中國給我們不斷的穿小鞋可能給予一些外交上面的壓力之外在對內的部分是我們比較可以有機會我們自己來好好守護的因為畢竟外交的部分操之在別人的手上包括中國同樣的"},{"start":39.428,"end":39.528,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":66.24,"end":86.95,"text":"自演所出來的訊息不論是透過什麼樣的管道釋出但是都可以看得出來這有可能都是中國在520之前的認知作戰但是現在大家比較覺得國安局是不是有訊息的那就是駭客可不可能入侵我們的網路來造成一些重要的網路的癱瘓甚至出現一些"},{"start":88.371,"end":103.333,"text":"給予倒戰式的這樣的留言又或者是說乾脆就設入我們的基礎的關鍵設施來搞大停電阿等等請問國安局現在有接收到相關的訊息嗎?那麼做了哪些的準備?在可以透露的情況之下可不可以讓本席了解?"},{"start":104.601,"end":120.308,"text":"謝謝委員,我想妄害的結合任職作戰是中共常用的手法,那我們國安局還是會收集我們國內的所有的資訊,也統合所有的國安團隊密切的注意這一方面的訊息及時應處。"},{"start":121.829,"end":125.251,"text":"好所以我要問的就是比較具體的問現在有關於網路或基礎設施這樣的所謂侵害或侵擾造成520之前或520當天或者是521這樣很接近520的時刻出現所謂恐慌你們有接受到這樣的情資嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":142.776,"end":156.275,"text":"我們都有在持續注意它的發展,但是目前都是比較臨時性的一些爭議的訊息,我們也都會及時應處"},{"start":160.1,"end":176.734,"text":"好 因為尤其是上網路的這個部分我們當然知道其實在小英總統執政的這8年過程當中包括總統府或重要的一些網站被攻擊的次數是與日俱增那麼相信你們在這邊都有持續的做一個關注是"},{"start":177.495,"end":189.868,"text":"好,另外其實我比較在乎的是我在今年3月的時候就曾經對國安局的蔡局長提出質疑就是中國方方面面給台灣壓力尤其是在520前後除了剛剛講到的外交除了講到520就職典禮之外那麼現在最重要的就是"},{"start":194.272,"end":206.466,"text":"以通促融包括這種所謂從地方包圍中央現在的地方政府已經成為了中國滲入的窗口嗎?我們來看一下我這是擷取至北竿相公所的網站直接就說可以代辦斧馬同城通我請問副局長"},{"start":215.161,"end":227.068,"text":"像這樣子連江縣政府的焦慮局直接把資料交給中國這個符合現行的法規嗎?請問你們在我3月質詢之後有持續的監測或了解這個案子嗎?"},{"start":228.969,"end":252.998,"text":"謝謝委員,我們有掌握到目前大概申辦人數有三千人,這個我們有去了解請問這樣的做法合規嗎?合法嗎?這個可能會有兩岸人民關係條例的問題,如果有合作的行為的話,可能會,我們會把相關的資料發給那請問這樣的代辦算不算合作?"},{"start":254.108,"end":273.907,"text":"這個相關的情節的話,我們會交給權責單位去做認定。所以會交給哪個權責單位?如果是地方政府的部分,交給陸委會?是。好,因為我們都知道這個以通促融,如果地方政府現在變成窗口的話,窗口一開,我必須現在以地方來講的話,國民黨的執政縣市超過半數。"},{"start":278.271,"end":291.816,"text":"如果此例一開,會不會變成是不用核備中央地方就可以,地方政府就變成了中國滲透台灣以通促融的一個窗口你看喔,縣長是帶頭直接在臉書上面就直接說馬祖鄉親,一人一卡,駙馬同城通,這代為宣傳耶那麼地方政府到中國去提出的所有的會台政策以代辦"},{"start":304.66,"end":331.735,"text":"代辦算不算合作如果說這些東西沒有掌握的話就會成為滲透的空間或者是就給予了這樣的一個管道我要我特別今天質詢國安局的部分是因為基照兩岸人民關係條例的第9條第4項地方政府的首長要進入中國必須要提報一個審查會審查會當中當然你提到的陸委會之外法務部還有國安局其實也是審查會的"},{"start":333.476,"end":352.682,"text":"成員對不對是好那我們知道如果一旦地方政府的首長要到中國去他就會進入一個他們人事或是政風單位會進入一個所謂申請的表格但是這個申請表格只說停留的地點行程還有訪問的單位但是這會不會流於格式化會不會流於格式化那麼比如說像這一個2月10號的這個會面或者是說這樣的一個過程"},{"start":362.984,"end":391.016,"text":"已經發生了但是國安局有掌握嗎?這個會不會變成是上有政策下有對策?副局長謝謝委員這個我們要尊重我們業管單位他們所設計的表格我們是提供一些情報的資料而已我了解所以這是我要問的下一個問題就是如果在你所提報的資料當中以現在這樣的方式算不算是已經一種滲透的形式國安局怎麼看?"},{"start":392.233,"end":410.032,"text":"我們都會注意相關的情資那對於這個行為我們也會深入的了解好所以這個行為對你們來說我只有兩個問題第一個是代辦算不算合作算不算違反了現行的兩岸人民關係條例第二個當然你說你會交給夜館單位那麼對國安局來講你們就是在"},{"start":413.757,"end":425.591,"text":"所謂的去做情資的收集那麼像這樣的方式有沒有可能單點突破之後持續擴大變成是未來地方政府可以用這樣的方式來做一個滲透這會不會成為一個滲透的樣態"},{"start":428.783,"end":447.841,"text":"我們都會深刻的瞭解,收集相關的資料好,我身為副局長,我知道你不是主觀啦,你很難回答啦但是這個如果連你都無法判定,那麼接下來就是感覺上這就是一個破口喔因為你只說深入瞭解喔,但是沒有給答案喔是,我們會深入瞭解,是"},{"start":454.249,"end":459.915,"text":"我真的覺得如果你用這種態度來回應記者的問題跟提問如果連這樣的所謂防範滲透的樣態這算不算你都不可以有答案只有深入了解那就表示我從3月的時候提問到現在你們都沒有了解是這個意思嗎"},{"start":472.91,"end":477.034,"text":"我沒有要你制止正常的訪問,而是在訪問之後所衍生出來的這樣的一個作為"},{"start":489.366,"end":503.161,"text":"您認為沒有問題或是您認為它連是一個滲透的樣態你都無法回應或回答嗎?因為有些是會牽扯到各自的問題這個都是有法律邊緣的問題這個都是我們注意的內容"},{"start":506.62,"end":531.213,"text":"時間到我不想占用後面的時間但是我認為副局長你沒有聽清楚我要詢問的就是這樣一個方式對他一切按照規矩來但是他在訪問之後他所衍生出來的合作方案代辦方案等不等於合作違不違反現行的法規他會不會成為一個滲透的新樣態"},{"start":535.476,"end":549.026,"text":"這的確有那個風險存在也是我們現在會去積極深入了解的地方好我希望這個部分你們能夠做出一些小叮嚀做出一些樣態的形式讓其他相關的單位作為參考好嗎好謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173463f9cc8ae4e566e4ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4da083280c9df5163c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:01:18 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10:13:03","影片長度":"00:11:45","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":705,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:13:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:01:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時1分）主席好，有請許部長。"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這是公視在2021年拍出的劇叫作「火神的眼淚」，請問你有看過嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我沒有看這部戲，但是大概有看報導。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我發現我們臺灣有一個很特別的狀況，我們都知道社會問題發生在哪裡、弊病在哪裡，甚至可以拿來當作藝術創作、拿來改寫成劇本，成為民眾的休閒，但是我們好像沒有辦法解決這個問題，像業務繁雜、過勞、高殉職比例、工時過長、人力不足、輪班制度無限上綱、不能當吹哨者，一切的根源在於他們不能為自己發聲，對不對？這些問題我們都知道，但請問部長，這是您最後一次的備詢，人將下臺其言也善，想要請問就你個人而言，你同意消防員為自己說話，促進消防人員的權益嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["廖委員偉翔：你同意嘛。那你同意他們組工會嗎？"],["許部長銘春：其實發聲的方式有很多種，因為消防人員不是一般的勞工，所以他組工會可能在身分上，依我們目前的法制是有其侷限性，但是公務……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長就你個人而言，你同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得我們可能必須考慮到他的身分問題，看怎麼樣在目前他已經有的規定，像公協法來強化、擴大他們的團結權為目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，照你的說法，我只是想要簡單的答案，就是您同意還是不同意？所以您是覺得不同意，因為你覺得有其他路徑，是這個意思嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得如果有其他路徑也可以達到他們訴求的目的，我們就可以來……"],["廖委員偉翔：我們請銓敘部政務次長。所以你剛剛講的，就是你要修公務人員協會法，按照今天銓敘部的報告，銓敘部去年3月才開始送版本，還在徵集各部會表示意見，2021年臺劇的劇組都比你們瞭解問題，你們到2023年已經送版本到立法院，為什麼到今年3月7號還在問各單位的意見，這不是應該去年就做完的事情嗎？為什麼到現在還說在溝通意見呢？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們其實是用開會方式處理，但是後來在10月30號送到立法院之後，因為屆期不連續退回來之後，我們覺得應該直接徵詢縣市政府的意見。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以到現在還在研議，對不對？整個任期都在研議，意見不是大家早就知道了嗎？蔡政府也不重視，你剛剛講的屆期不連續就讓它銷聲匿跡，現在你們都已經準備要換內閣了，還在研議，請問你們下一次提版本到底要什麼時候？"],["朱次長楠賢：我想施政是延續的，我們這些資料會交下去，到下一屆新的內閣會處理；基本上，還是朝向在協商內容放寬以及差異門檻降低的方面去處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長、次長，我現在就拜託你們一件事情，你們交到下一任的時候，可不可以把這個列為最先的優先事項，把這個問題解決，好不好？你們到時候可不可以要求這部分，你們強烈建議是下一任內閣的優先事項？你們都點頭，可以喔！"],["朱次長楠賢：可以。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。再來，勞保年金的改革拖了8年，也造成收支的差距不斷地擴大，民國106年的時候，當時年金改革委員會的召集人叫陳建仁，他說改革不及早啟動，勞保基金恐怕撐不久，民國116年之後財務缺口幾乎是懸崖，直接跳到太平洋，要救都來不及。但是這8年下來，沒有見到改革，只有自民國109年開始，透過用公務預算撥補的方式，讓現金流穩定。現在正在籌編明年度的預算，請教部長，勞動部原本計畫希望行政院明年撥補多少金額？"],["許部長銘春：因為現在正在籌編，基本上按照過往的經驗，政府的撥補應該都會參酌前一年的預算金額來設定，所以我想明年的撥補金額應該也不會少啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：不會少，就是會很多這樣。明年度至少要撥多少金額，才不會去動用或是變賣國內外的股票或債券跟不動產？"],["許部長銘春：因為撥補的金額到底要撥補多少，還是要看整個財政的狀況，像去年跟今年整個勞保基金的投資效益都不錯，像去年我們的勞保基金賺了1,100億，投資報酬率14.44%。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個是帳面的金額，你有去把它變賣、變現出來嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個當然就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長……"],["許部長銘春：我們就是要支付，我們就是會……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，現在因為新舊政府的交接……"],["許部長銘春：我們的差額會從勞保基金來彌補。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，沒關係。我剛剛的問題你沒有回答我，因為現在新舊政府的交接，所以公務預算撥補的金額恐怕會有調整，但是我想要問你，你會建議新的部長或未來行政院長在編列這個撥補勞保基金預算至少要多少金額嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我想第一個持續撥補這個立場應該不會改變，在金額的部分，過去我們也認為希望能夠在財務許可的情況下，越多越好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你剛剛有提到參考過去的嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以從這個表我們可以看到今年度共撥了1,300億，剛好可以彌平收支差額，但是預估明年度的收支差額至少應該差超過1,300。"],["許部長銘春：去年的收支差異是446啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：112年嘛，對！我是說113年，今年度啊！所以明年度？"],["許部長銘春：這個是今年的，因為這是精算報告預估的啦！其實實際的差異數有時候跟預估數會不一樣，但是撥補的立場……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是我們從今年來看，就是收支差今年要撥1,300，明年保守估計應該也是1,200嘛，對不對？所以行政院如果明年沒有撥補1,000億，是不是開始要賣勞股？後年度的收支差會不會到1,800億？"],["許部長銘春：這個是精算報告的數字推估的，今年我們還會重新做精算報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：精算報告不就是要給我們來參考編預算用的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對，這是參考，但我要跟委員說這是參考數據，不是實際會發生的數據啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：可是你都講精算報告，我們不是就要先看到這個數字來因應嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對！我的意思是政府的撥補會參考，但也要衡酌其財務狀況來撥補。"],["廖委員偉翔：我現在要講，你看這裡的表，基本上你的收支差就是不斷地擴大，如此繼續擴大我們的收支差額，會不會在賴清德第一屆總統任內，我們勞保基金3兆的資產恐怕不夠支付所有的法定支出？新任的部長會不會是破產部長？因為部長剛剛有講，你說股市上漲的時候，勞動部就會跳出來宣稱勞動基金賺了好多錢，好棒棒，但這都是帳面價值啊！沒有出清前都只是數字啊！對於已經請領退休金額的人來講，現金流才是重點吧。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們的給付並沒有發生任何問題啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：是！現在沒有啦！"],["許部長銘春：基金餘額到3月的時候九千九百多億。"],["廖委員偉翔：你現在沒有當然就是因為你說公務預算一直來撥補嘛！"],["許部長銘春：不是，撥補當然是一個財源挹注，去做投資運用也是增加財源的一個方式，我要跟委員說，我們的……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，那我等一下給你看下面的數據……"],["許部長銘春：基金就是來填補每年收支逆差的缺口啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我們從數據上來看，最近6個月光是年金給付一項，人數從175.9萬增長到182.4萬人，給付金額也從每個月的328.5億增加到340億，這是政府公布的短期數據，是看不太出來有什麼很大的差異性，但是如果把數據的時間拉長來看，從108年的2月，給付人數是121.82萬，給付金額是207億，但是到今年2月，已經到了182.4萬人，給付金額也從每個月207億增長到340億，短短5年的時間，給付人數增長了49.75%，給付金額也增長了63.8%，部長，你知道這代表的意思是什麼嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這本來就是在預估的範圍，因為已經到一個成熟期，累增的人數本來就會增加，所以才會說勞保的問題，我們可能要審慎，因為整個人口結構的改變，所以這個一定要……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實我想這應該也不只我們在關心，已經講勞保改革很久了，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對啊……"],["廖委員偉翔：是不是蔡英文找……"],["許部長銘春：我要跟委員說，這些人數都是在原來的預估範圍裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，但是蔡英文找柯文哲到他們總統府談的時候也講了嘛！他第一件事情跟他講的就是勞保改革。部長，現在戰後嬰兒潮的退休潮已經開始，過去5年的無論是增加給付人數或是增加給付金額都是呈現45度的上揚，但是退休者是依據法令申請退休和申請給付，所以政策上，我想你們能夠做的是不是想辦法延退？例如在數據上顯示，現在請領的年齡級距高峰是在60到64歲，再來才是65到69歲還有55到59歲，而媒體調查，支持延後退休的年齡也有很高的支持率。請教部長，除了法定的逐步調高退休年齡外，我們還有哪些鼓勵延退的機制？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在延退有展延年金，就是5年嘛！現在是5年，有一個上限，至於延後退休年齡這個建議，當然大家可以來討論，然後看看怎麼樣處理，主要是要有共識啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我覺得這件事情，勞保的年金改革應該刻不容緩，你們都認同對不對？好，那我希望部長你在交接下一任的時候，是不是這件事情也請他們誠實面對，不要再一拖再拖，拖了8年過去了，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。等一下涂權吉委員質詢結束後，我們休息5分鐘，現在請蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 〉案"},{"start":161.471,"end":188.45,"text":"所以你剛剛講的就是說你要改這個修工務人員協會法嘛那按照今天全序部的報告全序部去年3月才開始送版本還在徵集各部會的表示意見那2021年這個台劇的劇組都比你們了解問題你們到2023年已經送版本到立法院為什麼到今年的3月7號還在問各單位的意見這不是應該去年就做完的事情嗎為什麼到現在還說在溝通意見呢"},{"start":189.693,"end":212.785,"text":"我們其實是用開會方式處理啊但是後來這個10月30號送到立法院之後因為屆期不連續推來之後呢我們覺得應該直接徵詢縣市政府的意見好所以到現在還在研議嘛對不對相當的研議整個任期都在研議嘛意見不是大家都早就知道嗎那然後蔡政府也不重視然後你剛剛講了屆期不連續就讓他銷聲匿跡現在你們都已經準備要換"},{"start":216.607,"end":220.067,"text":"換內閣了還在演繹那請問你們下一次提版本到底要什麼時候?"},{"start":221.158,"end":249.767,"text":"我想這個施政是延續的啦我們這些資料會交下去到下一屆新的內閣會處理基本上還是朝向在協商內容放寬以及參議門檻降低的方面去處理部長、次長那我現在就拜託你們一件事情你們交到下一任的時候可不可以把這個列為最先的優先事項把這個問題解決好不好你們可不可以到時候要求說這個東西你們強烈建議是下一任的內閣的優先事項"},{"start":251.277,"end":252.878,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":272.045,"end":300.549,"text":"他說改革不及早啟動勞保基金恐怕撐不久民國116年之後財務缺口幾乎是懸崖直接跳到太平洋要救都來不及但是這8年下來沒有見到改革只有自民國109年開始透過用公務預算撥補的方式讓現金流穩定部長現在正在籌編明年度的預算請教部長勞動部原本計畫希望行政院明年撥補多少金額"},{"start":301.577,"end":327.087,"text":"拜託委員因為現在在籌編那我們基本上按照過往的經驗政府的撥補應該都會參酌前一年的預算金額來去設定所以應該我想明年的撥補金額應該也不會少不會少就是會很多這樣那明年度至少要撥多少金額才會不會去動用或是變賣國內外的股票或債券跟不動產"},{"start":328.154,"end":352.254,"text":"拜託委員因為那個撥補的金額到底要撥補多少還是要看整個財政的狀況那這幾這像去年跟今年整個的勞保基金的投資效益都不錯像去年的話我們的勞保基金賺了1100億他投資報酬率14.44%這個是帳面的金額你有去你有去做你有去把變賣出來變現出來嗎這個當然就是"},{"start":355.736,"end":361.057,"text":"公務預算撥補的金額恐怕會有調整但是我想要問你你會建議新的部長或未來行政院長在編列這個撥補勞保基金預算至少要多少金額嗎"},{"start":381.228,"end":385.33,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":404.339,"end":425.315,"text":"μη憑收支差額。但是預估明年度的收支差額應該也至少超過一千三。去年的收支差異是四百四十幾,四四六啦。一一二年嘛。對,我說一一三年。今年度啊。因為這個都是精算報告。這是精算報告預估的啦,包委員。其實實際的差異數有時候"},{"start":427.056,"end":445.162,"text":"),委員王育敏等193人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案：立法院第16次全體委員王育敏等193人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員王育敏等193人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員王育敏等193人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員王育敏等193人擬具、「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員"},{"start":453.158,"end":477.089,"text":"報告委員這個是精算報告的數字推估的今年我們還重新做精算報告精算報告不就是要給我們來參考別人的預算用的嗎但是我要跟委員說這是參考數據不是實際會發生的數據可是你都會講精算報告我們不是就要先看到這個數字來做營運嗎我的意思是說政府的撥補他會參考但是也是要橫著他的財務狀況"},{"start":478.49,"end":496.245,"text":"好我先要講你看這裡的表基本上你的收支差就是不斷的在擴大嘛如此繼續擴大我們的收支差額恐怕會不會賴清德第一屆總統任內我們勞保基金三兆的資產恐怕會不夠支付所有的法定支出新任的部長會不會是破產部長"},{"start":498.598,"end":519.412,"text":"因爲你剛剛有講部長你說股市上漲的時候勞動部就會跳出來宣稱說勞動基金賺了好多錢好棒棒但是這都是帳面價值沒有出清錢都只是數字但對於已經請領退休金額的人來講這個現金流才是重點但是我們的給付並沒有發生任何問題是現在沒有基金餘額到9900多億到3月的時候9900多億你現在沒有當然就是因爲你說公約預算一直來撥補不是不是"},{"start":528.998,"end":549.691,"text":"多補當然是一個財源挹注,那去做投資運用那也是增加財源的一個方式。我要再跟委員說我們的這個……好,部長,那我等一下給你看下面的數據。基金就是來填補每年的收支逆差的差距。我們從數據上來看最近六個月,光是這個年金給付一項,人數從175.9萬增長到182.4萬人。"},{"start":555.254,"end":567.163,"text":"擬副金額也從每個月的328.5億增加到340億。這是政府公佈的短期數據是看不太出來有什麼很大的差異性的。但是如果把這數據的時間拉長來看,從108年的2月擬副人數是121.82萬,擬副金額是207億。但是到今年2月已經到了182.4萬人,擬副金額也從207億每個月增長到340億。"},{"start":583.474,"end":601.181,"text":"短短五年的時間幾副人數增長了49.75%幾副金額也增長了63.8%部長你知道這代表的意思是什麼嗎這本來就是在預估的範圍因為已經到一個成熟期其實累增的人數本來就會增加所以"},{"start":601.841,"end":622.024,"text":"之所以才會說這個勞保的問題我們可能要因為這整個人口結構的概念其實我想這應該也不只我們在關心啦已經講了勞保改革很久了嘛對不對是不是蔡英文找因為這些人數都是在原來的預估範圍裡面是但是蔡英文找柯文哲到他們總統府談的時候也講了嘛他第一件事情跟他講的就是勞保改革"},{"start":623.506,"end":642.461,"text":"議員,現在戰後嬰兒潮的退休潮已經開始了。過去五年的無論是增加給付人數或是增加給付金額都是呈現45度的上揚。但是退休者是依據法令的申請退休和申請給付。所以政策上我想你們能夠做的是不是想辦法延退"},{"start":644.855,"end":649.096,"text":"而媒體調查支持延後退休的年齡也有很高的支持率請教部長除了法定的逐步調高退休年齡外我們還有哪些鼓勵延退的機制"},{"start":667.588,"end":683.354,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全"},{"start":692.79,"end":701.437,"text":"好,那我希望說部長你在交接下一任的時候是不是這件事情也請他們誠實面對不要再一拖再拖拖了八年過去的好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17343abc352e91e219ffa2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d4159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:55:07 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87.912,"end":303.356,"text":"那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化它跟中共當然它的壓力也是會有或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法"},{"start":311.043,"end":312.444,"text":"他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢?"},{"start":339.59,"end":346.475,"text":"其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對"},{"start":368.752,"end":370.354,"text":"委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門"},{"start":387.049,"end":391.371,"text":"還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為"},{"start":413.513,"end":441.922,"text":"我們厚恥薄筆對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處"},{"start":442.802,"end":458.643,"text":"可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊"},{"start":459.364,"end":472.129,"text":"也存在啊,他的壓力也存在啊,他的威脅也存在啊,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese"},{"start":484.64,"end":500.673,"text":"這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的"},{"start":500.953,"end":510.939,"text":"可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外"},{"start":529.991,"end":559.923,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734f6a4262aea7fb530ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4dced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:51:34 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我們請潘部長好 有請部長"},{"start":11.427,"end":35.864,"text":"張維豪部長這是你最後一次以教育部長的身份站在這邊來備詢我想我是第9任的立委我看著你這樣上來然後在第11屆的時候也要歡送你離去對我來說對你來說應該是感慨非常的多我想這7年多大概是創下我們教育部長任內就是留任最大的一個記錄我說實在的部長在這個過程當中當然有8月1月時間你因為卡管案而離開我想卡管不管是對你或是對我"},{"start":39.887,"end":43.008,"text":"當時身為一個在野黨委員來說都是一個非常大的傷痕而且呢因為卡管案我們換掉了吳茂坤部長我們換掉了葉俊榮部長然後8個月之後呢你又重新再來我想那個時候因為整個教育部真的是風聲鶴唳我想沒有人敢來接教育部長所以你又再一次的被請求我為什麼講這些的歷史是要告訴你說其實你是深受高層的信任"},{"start":64.256,"end":75.202,"text":"所以說呢今天大概7年半的時間當中本席對你是給予無限的祝福希望你未來能夠一切非常的平安順心也能夠繼續發揮你的專業在我們的國教特別是在國教這一塊裡面能夠造福我們更多的學子給予滿滿的一個祝福了沒有功勞以後非常大的苦勞但是話鋒一轉各位我們還是來看我們今天的書面報告"},{"start":87.268,"end":96.671,"text":"因為我們今天我們如果只看教育部的規劃或數字你會覺得好像預期非常的政策很成功但是部長我要看到的是一個檢討這部分報告的檢討到底在哪裡來我告訴你你有哪些地方我很希望能夠看到的你們告訴我就說穩定成長總數大概11萬6千但是呢我要問"},{"start":110.276,"end":131.403,"text":"到底我們國際招生的方式到底是如何是自行申請的多呢還是透過仲介仲介費到底收了多少申選的機制在哪裡還有呢你們每一次的這個獎學金吸引國際學生的方式跟比例到底是如何然後有沒有掌握留在臺灣工作超過一年的一個比例還有在學校裡面的成金獎懲到底是不是我們列為在臺灣工作的條件還有"},{"start":135.805,"end":135.985,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":155.868,"end":160.33,"text":"問題是你們現在所看到的我沒有看到這些檢討報告我可以一一來跟部長討論但是本席所條列的而且我用這個特別框出來的我麻煩部長一個月之內給我一個正確的數字這是非常重要這是我認為的這才叫做檢討那我們就一一來去看一下到底哪些部分可以就教育部長的你看"},{"start":175.678,"end":179.14,"text":"我們從P9月你第9月就開始說要擴大招生國際的這個學生然後呢113到145年當中的每年投入5000萬表示5年要投租了2.5億喔那我們國發基金外還要給這個新型專班的學生每人每年10萬總共最多可以補助兩年企業界每個月至少1萬生活津貼所以因為國際學生兩年獲得44萬的補助"},{"start":205.418,"end":206.019,"text":"請問有多少人是可以獲得這些補助?"},{"start":223.789,"end":224.73,"text":"部長現在有掌握這些數字嗎?部長你有沒有考慮我們台灣年輕人的感受"},{"start":244.128,"end":266.042,"text":"這是一個相對剝奪感我同意一定要招收所有的國際的學生但是你也很清楚最優秀的國際學生不會來臺灣我必須大膽的這樣去講我在大學任教這麼多很多學生很認真但是最優秀的學生是在歐美所以我們要很多很多的學生過來我們要寄出非常多的獎助學金所以我今天是來就教育來討論這樣的狀況所以有多少學生是0可以領到我剛剛說的最高額"},{"start":271.701,"end":274.544,"text":"學生的人數昨年有一個統計表再請召委來指教就是這個對象的學生國發基金所協助的主要是單程的機票的費用反過來應該是企業要做的這方面是因為他們要旅行到這個企業裡面去服務的"},{"start":295.885,"end":295.985,"text":"主席"},{"start":315.942,"end":315.982,"text":"主席"},{"start":327.729,"end":342.658,"text":"跟委員報告當然這個委員剛才一開始只叫那個檢討這個為什麼會有提出後續的這幾個方案其實就是檢討前面像新南向專班這個我想委員最了解的當時有些學校實在是做得非常過頭非常非常離譜當時也聽到很多那時候楊司長都還在啊"},{"start":348.342,"end":348.362,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":364.792,"end":366.473,"text":"國際招生及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第1會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":387.386,"end":389.148,"text":"一百零四年一百一十六人一百一十二年一萬五千六"},{"start":409.548,"end":424.872,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":424.972,"end":428.393,"text":"有良心的老師把關,把他給當掉,他就轉系。那樣的轉系呢,他會失去全額的獎金,他就繼續不上課,就繼續給你打工。然後呢,他就可以混畢業留下來。很容易,像我目前臺北發生的這個寶林茶室的那位月籍的代班廚師,他就是畢業留下來的。"},{"start":444.699,"end":457.243,"text":"因為現在的證照你們所謂的這個四證合一的你們的就業金卡連網紅隨便都可以拿到就業金卡你看移民署發具的工作許可居留簽證外僑居留證還有從入國許這個從入國的許可這四證合一你不覺得現在有人這樣的一個證發的太過於腐爛了嗎"},{"start":468.378,"end":490.287,"text":"我沒有說外國學生留下來不可以可是你過去還有一個機制過去你還會要求你要留下來薪資起碼要三萬塊錢以上還有一些可以卡關的一個機制因為要保護所以你現在為了要讓這麼多人你要衝到這麼多的人數所以我才說嘛你的新能向意義到底在哪裡我們會非常的歡迎但是呢就我們以前來最最嚴肅的來說外籍學生如果詐騙酒駕打架"},{"start":494.429,"end":499.051,"text":"我們沒有辦法給他退學臺灣學生可以退學我當學務長的時候退學的一些的學生經過一些程序可是外籍學生到我們這邊來我們沒有這樣子的一個部分我們到底收的這些學生納稅人的錢我只是說這是一個比例的原則我目前在你的檢討報告當中我沒有看到"},{"start":514.099,"end":525.245,"text":"所以為什麼我要需要這些數字我需要這些錢還有我告訴你目前為止我剛所說的都是教育的reality都是現況部長面對這麼多你今天這份檢討報告我說實在的我不覺得你的南向你出來告訴我你有很多的學生但是對我來說那整個實質對臺灣產業對於我們的國際交流來說我覺得還是對我來說還是要畫上一個非常大的問號"},{"start":538.412,"end":540.535,"text":"教育部有這樣的一個過程裡面是非常確實的去逐一的去做檢視那現在兩萬的學生已經有五屆畢業大概三千多人"},{"start":555.373,"end":580.675,"text":"他其實是願意留下來再繼續工作這個是一個已經這個佔比例大概66%那委員剛才提到的現在為什麼我們要求學校你要負責招生你必須負有相當的義務這個對學校採取一個很嚴格的處分我要跟委員報告的是這幾所甚至委員之前你提到的那些學校退場為什麼會退場因為教育部很清楚的"},{"start":582.637,"end":585.499,"text":"因為那些學校做得太過分了但是我剛所調列的這些狀況包括外籍學生你很難給他退學包括外籍學生他們幾乎把打工比念書來得更重要"},{"start":598.126,"end":619.498,"text":"那幾乎對於很多東南亞的學生來說都認為臺灣就是一個打工的天堂因為而且打完工之後呢學校如果說標準又很低他又可以得到一些的獎助學金即使沒有獎助學金他繼續打工的賺錢的方法然後你要把他發放這個所謂的藉由金卡這在很多東南亞國家都已經變成是他們的利多可對我們來說的話我們花了這麼多錢給他們過來又給獎助學金給生活補助他們的對待跟我們本國學生又不一樣"},{"start":627.662,"end":627.942,"text":"您對本國學生公平在哪裏?"},{"start":652.535,"end":657.919,"text":"教育部本身就有一個陳情專案因為我們說從源頭我們已經做了好多的要求這個要求是你看你那個入學通知等等的部分必須要到你的學生再來實習打工分得清清楚楚"},{"start":675.131,"end":690.798,"text":"布長,如果說分得清楚的話,因為他們不到你教育部陳請,他們到我本席辦公室來陳請,好不好?所以無論如何,把我剛剛所條列那幾個綠色框出來的,不管是數據,還是人數,還有一些的做法,我覺得這對我個人來說才是今天我們安排這次所謂的"},{"start":691.578,"end":691.958,"text":"請教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":715.04,"end":715.08,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734ae31fa377d898c62ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d61f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:52:16 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10:01:15","影片長度":"00:08:59","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":539,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:01:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:52:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時52分）好，有請我們的許部長。"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。今天應該是最後一次備詢。"],["許部長銘春：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：卸任之後要去哪裡？"],["許部長銘春：先休息一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我比較關心你。"],["許部長銘春：感謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：雖然相處不久還是有感情的。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問部長，上次您到辦公室的時候，跟我提到提升就業的兩個重點工作，這中間包括婦女再就業以及促進中高齡就業，其中促進中高齡再進入職場的職務設計非常重要。目前職務再設計執行的狀況怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我跟委員報告一下，去年我們補助549家事業單位，人次是2,250人，比111年的1,888人增加20%；今年截至3月底，受理131家事業單位，608人申請，所以我認為職務再設計服務這幾年的成效應該有逐漸增加及呈現。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問部長，現在有哪些產業來申請？"],["許部長銘春：產業？"],["邱委員鎮軍：職務再設計的部分。"],["蔡署長孟良：目前申請職務再設計的大概是製造業，因為製造業可能有一些體力性工作，讓中高齡從事可能需要透過職務再設計。另外，服務業也有，像旅宿業跟餐飲，這個大概也是目前整個職務再設計比較多的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想問勞動部，如何具體提供促進中高齡再就業的誘因？依據勞動部的分析，申請的產業是否與現在中高齡者想投入的產業相符？這個比較重要。"],["許部長銘春：有，其實職務再設計不分產業，我們都歡迎他們來申請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們有協助設計中高齡彈性就業的……"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望勞動部把這個工作交接好……"],["許部長銘春：好，這個我們會持續做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這個未來也是非常重要的工作……"],["許部長銘春：對，非常重要。謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望未來的新內閣能夠持續做這件事情。"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，最近外面有許多降低企業勞工組織工會門檻的呼籲，希望從現行的30人降為10人或15人。請問部長，對於降低組工會的門檻，勞動部的立場會是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：一直都有降低工會成立門檻人數的訴求……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有跟經濟部做跨部會的溝通？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分的主責單位在關係司，他們都有多方徵詢，包括資方、勞方，都有聽取各界的意見。主要是現在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在貧富差距越來越大，中小企業的競爭力不再是主因，而且中小企業是國人就業的主力；根據統計，每一個中小企業的平均壽命只有13年，經營非常困難，所以政府第一步應該協助中小企業發展，落實勞資溝通，這才是對勞工最好的保障。工會、勞工的權益當然要保護，但是更重要的是對他的工作及中小企業的協助，我覺得這個也是重點。你給他再多的權利，如果公司倒了、沒有了等於零，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對於警消面臨工作過勞、高危險，因此積極爭取警消人員組工會的狀況，我想先請問一下勞動部的立場怎麼樣？剛剛都提了。"],["許部長銘春：對，他的勞動權我們支持要保障，但是我們認為他的保障路徑，主要他是公務人員的身分，我們認為應該在公務人員協會法裡面落實，看如何強化、提升及擴大他的結社權跟協商權，這個是主要的目標跟方向。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想請問一下考試院的銓敘部，你們目前有沒有重新提案？方向還是放寬公協會的成立門檻嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：是，門檻降低、協商內容增加。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！有關這個問題，事實上，警消人員是屬於危勞的行業，長期爭取應落實公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，我覺得這個非常重要，第三條的規定我們也希望銓敘部能制定相關的辦法，具體提供警消人員的安全衛生及防護措施，或者是適用職業安全衛生法的規定，最大的差別是只有殉職沒有職災以及公務機關沒有罰則也沒有責任，請銓敘部儘快與內政部洽商，提高對於高危勞警消人員的預防跟保護措施。我想這個也非常重要，不能因為他們目前沒有成立工會，工會的問題放在後面，我覺得這個要先做，好不好？","我再請問許部長，上次我們談到112年15歲到24歲的青年失業率仍然高達11.37%，部長跟我說現在已經降到8趴多，我回去怎麼看、怎麼查都找不到你說的數據。我後來問了勞動部發展署，他跟我說你講的是15歲到29歲，但是這兩張表根本就沒有15到29歲的統計級距。我提問的是引用勞動部「台灣勞工季刊」第72期提出的數據，是針對15歲到24歲失業率的比較，你把它拉到29歲當然數字會有差。"],["許部長銘春：OECD對於青年的定義就是15到29歲。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼你們公布的又不一樣呢？你看嘛！"],["許部長銘春：剛剛那個區間好像……"],["蔡署長孟良：目前青年就業是以15到29歲，有一些勞動統計……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！現在問題不在幾歲到幾歲，重點是你們提供出來的數據，無論是勞動部，包含環保署，每一次我提到的數據都是不太對的。"],["許部長銘春：這是主計總處的資料。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為主計總處有時候它的勞動統計會跟國際的一些統計比較，其他國家像OECD有些是以15到24歲。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以國際是15到29歲，為什麼你要公布15到24歲呢？你就是要讓人家誤解嘛，對不對？"],["蔡署長孟良：其實沒有，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望政府應該誠實面對問題，這樣我們才會有進步的空間，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們國內現在針對失業的族群主要是15到29歲這個區間，可能都需要政府再透過我們這個方案來做一個協助，我們大概會聚焦在這個部分做相關的處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們以後就公布15到29歲，對不對？你們為什麼要去拉那個奇怪的資料，讓人家找不到？"],["許部長銘春：這個不是我們，這是主計總處的統計資料。不過委員您的建議，我們在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們也可以公布，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：因為我們青年失業的改善是針對……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這跟你們的業務也有相關，當你發現不對的時候，你們應該要及時做處理。"],["許部長銘春：也不是不對啦！委員，我們可能在聚焦的部分，另外做一個統計數據，讓大家能夠瞭解，可能這樣就不會誤會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.497218750000002,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.07034375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.77909375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.09534375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.76159375,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.31846875,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.195968750000002,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.06471875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.245968750000003,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.304718750000003,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.35096875,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.05409375,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.66721875,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.557218750000004,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.53096875,"end":76.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.36909375,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.50784375,"end":86.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.49846875,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.53971875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.37034375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.90596875,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.37409375,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.51034375,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.42784375000002,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.69784375,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.77784375000002,"end":142.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.40971875,"end":145.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.83096875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.75471875000002,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.21846875,"end":150.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.25221875,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.26909375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.02846875,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.11659375000002,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.88784375,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.05221875,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.47409375,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.48159375,"end":168.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.02159375000002,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.91909375,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.25221875,"end":177.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.91034375,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.39096875,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.93471875,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.03534375,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.08534375000002,"end":193.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.51971875,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.64909375000002,"end":207.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.78784375,"end":227.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.57159375,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.95971875,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.01034375,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.47721875000002,"end":222.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.18159375000002,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.11346875,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.13784375,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker"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️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":162.428,"end":189.395,"text":"最近外面有許多降低企業勞工組織工會門檻的呼籲希望從現行的30人降為10人或15人請問部長對於降低組工會的門檻勞動部的立場會是怎麼樣?報告委員當然這個降低工會門檻的這個訴求就成立門檻的人數的訴求一直都有這樣的一個參與有沒有跟經濟部這邊來做跨部會的這個溝通?"},{"start":192.159,"end":196.343,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件,在中小企業競爭力不再是主因,而中小企業是國人就業的一個主因。」"},{"start":217.461,"end":217.701,"text":"公司倒了﹖"},{"start":248.202,"end":257.088,"text":"沒有了那等於零嘛對不對那我再請問一下這個全序部的代表對於警消的工作過勞高危險積極爭取犯官這個警消人員的主工會的這個狀況我想先請問一下勞動部的您的立場怎麼樣"},{"start":275.967,"end":288.992,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案"},{"start":305.731,"end":321.638,"text":"那我想請問一下考試院的全序部我們目前有沒有重新提案方向還是朝這個放寬工協會的這個成立門檻嗎?是是那個門檻降低協商內容增加這樣子。好啦這個問題事實上我覺得啦"},{"start":322.538,"end":341.305,"text":"僅消人員因為是屬於危牢的一個行業那長期爭取應落實公務人員安全及衛生防護法我覺得這非常的重要第三條的規定我們也希望全市部能制定相關的辦法具體提供僅消人員的安全衛生及防護措施或者是適用"},{"start":342.145,"end":343.266,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":372.225,"end":396.263,"text":"好吧那我再請問我們的許部長是上次我們談到112年到這個15歲到24歲青年失業率仍然高達11.37%部長跟我說現在已經降到8%多我回去怎麼看怎麼查就找不到你說的數據啊找不到數據有啊"},{"start":401.85,"end":422.846,"text":"結果我後來問了勞動部你們發展署跟我說你講的是15歲到29歲但這兩張表根本就沒有15到29歲的這個統計這個級距事實上我提問的就是引用勞動部台灣勞工紀刊第72期提出的是針對15歲到24歲的失業率的比較"},{"start":427.17,"end":429.431,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":447.136,"end":459.992,"text":"兼委員報告因為我們目前在青年就業基本上是以15到29歲那有一些勞動同期我覺得現在是這樣現在問題不在於說幾歲到幾歲重點是說你們提供出來的數據無論是勞動部"},{"start":462.876,"end":466.338,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":485.385,"end":509.387,"text":"你就是要讓人家誤解嘛 對不對 跟委員其實沒有希望大家政府應該這樣子啊誠實面對問題這樣子我們才會有進步的空間好不好跟委員報告因為其實我們現在國內針對這個失業的族群主要是15到29歲這個區間可能都需要政府再透過我們這個方案來做一個協助所以我們大概是會聚焦在這個部分那所以你們以後公布就公布15到29歲嘛"},{"start":511.482,"end":534.641,"text":" entreprene?你們為什麼要去拿那個奇怪的資料呢?讓人家找不到。這個是主席總書他的統計資料。不過委員您的建議我們在...因為我們這個青年就業...就跟你們的業務也有相關嘛。當你發現不對的時候,你們應該要及時的來做...就我們可能另外這個聚焦的部分我們另外做一個統計數據讓大家能夠了解。可能這樣子不會誤會。謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734f41cefd9f4a43ab1076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d541701c7b896d2c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:47:06 - 09:55:19","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":493,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:55:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:47:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時47分）謝謝主席，我們請客委會周副主委跟原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：好，有請鍾副主委以及客委會的副主委，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：許委員好。"],["周副主任委員江杰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：兩位副主委好。我想請教一下，根據立法院預算中心的資料顯示，這幾年來客家電視臺跟講客廣播電臺的節目製播率都不高，大概在110年到112年8月底，客家電視臺節目的自製比率大概是33.2%到38.2%之間，而講客廣播電臺的自製比率是44.7%到46%之間，也就是說，客家電視臺跟講客廣播電臺的自製率都未達五成，客家電視臺5月6號正式加入公廣集團之後，請問一下，節目的自製率是否可以提高到五成以上？"],["周副主任委員江杰：跟委員報告，從110年開始的統計資料……"],["許委員宇甄：等一下，我們可以先暫停嗎？因為我沒有翻譯……"],["主席：好，我們現在暫停一下，請提供翻譯耳機。"],["周副主任委員江杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：翻譯機開啟了嗎？請問許宇甄委員，可以嗎？那請副座您再說明一下。"],["周副主任委員江杰：謝謝主席、謝謝委員的指教。跟委員報告，從110年到112年客家電視臺和客家傳播基金會自己的節目，從113（今）年開始，我們自己做的節目比率會增加到五成以上。"],["許委員宇甄：這部分我們既然已經編列那麼多預算成立電視臺跟廣播電臺，希望自製率都要提高，尤其是我們在看電視的時候，常常發現有些電影臺老是重播一些舊電影，就像周星馳的唐伯虎點秋香跟九品芝麻官，我想至少也重播過100次以上了，大家都對於劇情倒背如流，也覺得支付有線電視臺的費用卻只能看舊片很不划算，所以有人就把家用電視的有線電視臺直接退掉，就看網路的節目。而客家臺跟原民臺，政府每年也編列很多預算在這邊，但我們一樣也在看舊的節目。","依據立法院預算中心的資料，公共媒體製播節目新首播的比率，客家臺製播節目新首播的比率從106年的26%降到現在111年的22%，也就是說有78%的節目都是舊的；原民臺雖然高一點，但也不到25%，也就是說有75%的節目都是反覆播出。所以請問兩位副主委，客家臺跟原民臺的節目是越陳越香，也跟周星馳的電影唐伯虎點秋香一樣，要多看幾次才能品嘗出味道嗎？請回答。"],["周副主任委員江杰：向委員報告，針對客家電視臺的部分，其實從去年公視法修法之後，客家電視臺開始加入公視的廣播節目，所以我們未來希望能像委員剛才所提到的，自製節目的比率應該要提高，但是現在的情況是，公共電視法的修正之後，我們加入了公共廣播電視集團的運作，希望加上新聞臺和新聞節目之後，我們自製節目的比率會增加。"],["許委員宇甄：如果大部分都是舊的節目的話，你說怎麼吸引觀眾？不管是原民臺或者客家臺。那鍾副主委有什麼要補充的嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員，其實原民16族文化非常的豐富，在語言文化做自播性的節目應該不是一件很難的事，所以針對這個部分，我們是不是能夠精進並做改善？"],["許委員宇甄：OK，現在只有25%，你們可以精進的空間非常的多，所以不管是客家臺或者是原民臺，麻煩一定要為受眾者提供最好、最新，而且讓他們覺得很有興趣想看的節目。","我們也發覺剛剛講的其實都只有兩成多，但是說實在的，我們也沒有看到目前客委會或者是原民臺這邊有在認真監督，反而是客委會跟客傳會卻對認知作戰比較感興趣，像是「1977年的那一張照片」，我們可以看到110年12月24號跟瀚草文創事業股份有限公司簽約，在111年5月才大概底定確認，但是在109年就開始分年編列預算，而且客委會的主委也對媒體表示，投資這部電影要5,000萬，客傳會109年才成立的基金也不過才5,000萬，所以客傳會準備全部梭哈在這部電影嗎？不成功便成仁嗎？我們也一直看不到客傳會分年編列的5,000萬在哪裡？"],["周副主任委員江杰：感謝委員的指教，上次業務報告的時候有特別提到「1977年的那一張照片」這部電影，我們希望可以參考市場的運作，像之前大家對我們客家電視臺所做出來的「茶金」這樣的節目，可以和市場……"],["許委員宇甄：本席想請教您的是，5,000萬是編列在哪裡？"],["周副主任委員江杰：我們每年有補助客傳會2億的預算。"],["許委員宇甄：但你們是111年才簽約確認，那為什麼109年就開始編列預算？"],["周副主任委員江杰：我跟委員報告，從108年開始補助5,000萬給客家傳播基金會，從109年開始，每年客家委員會也補助給客傳會將近2億的預算，所以每年都有編列相關預算投資客家影視的製作。"],["許委員宇甄：每年編預算？也就是說109年你們開始編列預算，111年才開始確認執行這個電影的分場大綱等一些內容，那我不曉得前兩年的經費是做在哪裡？","另外，根據你們客傳會預算書第8頁的一些重點工作計畫，我們發覺今年度編列的預算大概有5,000萬會在各類的電影投資裡面，但是客委會投資「1977年的那一張照片」這部電影就要花五千多萬，請問其他客家電影的計畫是都沒有嗎？"],["周副主任委員江杰：跟委員報告，當然我們除了「1977年的那一張照片」這部電影之外，還有和客家傳播基金會合作其他的電影及其他的節目，所以一年2億的預算是補助客家傳播基金會在節目製作部分可以有錢好好運作，所以除了「1977年的那一張照片」這部電影之外，還有其他的業務推動……"],["許委員宇甄：我想這部分的比例太高了，尤其是針對「1977年的那一張照片」這部電影，真的投資的比率太高，希望我們客委會這邊能夠審慎評估這樣的經費分配是不是得當？以上。"],["周副主任委員江杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝兩位副主委。","繼續我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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兩位副主委好我想請教一下就是根據立法院的預算中心的資料顯示客家電視台跟講客廣播電台這幾年來的節目製播率都不高大概在110年到112年8月底呢客家電視台節目的自製比例"},{"start":41.167,"end":63.966,"text":"大概是33.2到38.2之間而講客廣播電台的自治比例是44.7到46之間也就是說客家電視台跟講客廣播台這自治率都未達五成那客家電視台5月6號正式加入公廣集團之後節目的自治率是否可以提高到五成以上請回答"},{"start":64.785,"end":86.798,"text":"老委員報告,在之前您從1999年開始,您也有開始統計資料,並沒有重複...等一下,可以先暫停嗎?因為我沒有那個...好,我們現在就是暫停一下,來,請...好,新莫委員,新莫主席對,提供耳機翻譯的...好,新莫委員...現在這個...這個..."},{"start":102.878,"end":113.925,"text":"好,翻譯機開啟了嗎?請問你是宇政委員可以嗎?那請副主委您再說,說一下我讓你請。好,請問主席,請問委員的職高。從日報20年到日報20年,還有騎士大樓,還有傳播基金會之間的節目,因為在日報23年生,今年開始,我們的職格作為節目的比例,為整個都五上一上。到委員報告。"},{"start":130.418,"end":144.431,"text":"就這部分希望說我們既然已經編列那麼多預算成立電視台跟廣播電台希望自治率都要提高那尤其是我想我們在看電視的時候常常發現有些電影台老是重播一些舊電影就像周星馳的"},{"start":145.191,"end":163.46,"text":"《唐伯虎點秋香》跟《九品芝麻關》至少我想也重播過一百次以上了大家都對於劇情倒背如流也覺得支付這個有線電視台的費用卻只能看舊片都覺得很不划算所以有人就把家中電視的這個有線電視台就直接退掉"},{"start":163.82,"end":181.939,"text":"然後就看網路的這個節目而客家台跟園民台政府也每年編列很多預算在這邊但我們一樣也在看舊的節目依據立法院預算中心的這個資料公共媒體製播節目新首播的比率客家台的製播節目新首播的比率是從106年的26%"},{"start":184.702,"end":184.742,"text":"請回答"},{"start":213.338,"end":224.104,"text":"到委員報告,針對黑客天使隊的部分,當然其實從去年演藝工事法事務法之後,演藝黑客天使隊是嘉義演藝工場的公佈節目"},{"start":225.563,"end":233.23,"text":"所以我希望人才和為人所提到的職格作為節目的比例應該提高但是現在的情況是我向天使法律署長指示我希望是監獄、公共、公佈集團相關的原則我希望跟新聞台、新聞節目的比例提高以後可以從職格作為節目的比例會增加"},{"start":250.666,"end":271.833,"text":"因為這個部分如果大部分都是舊的節目的話你說怎麼可以吸引不管是我們原民台或者是這個客家台那副主委有什麼要補充的嗎?謝謝委員因為其實原民16組文化非常的豐富在語言文化的節目應該做直播性的節目應該不是一件很難的事所以我們這個部分我們是不是也求精進能夠做改善"},{"start":272.493,"end":287.544,"text":"OK 現在只有25%你們可以進進的空間非常的多所以再麻煩不管是客家台或者是這個園民台都一定要為受眾者提供最好最新而且讓他們覺得很有興趣想看的節目然後我們也可以發覺就是剛剛講的其實都只有兩成多"},{"start":290.666,"end":317.772,"text":"但是說實在我們也沒有看到目前不管是客委會或是園民台這邊有在認真監督反而是客委會跟客傳會卻都認知作戰比較感興趣像是1977年的那一張照片我們可以看到110年12月24號跟漢草文創事業股份有限公司簽約那在111年5月大概才這個底定確認"},{"start":319.492,"end":346.38,"text":"那一旦是109年就開始分年編列預算剋委會副主委請問對媒而且剋委會你們的主委也對媒體表示投資這部電影要五千萬而剋傳會109年才成立的基金也不過才五千萬所以剋傳會準備全部搜哈在這部電影嗎不成功變成人嗎那我們也一直看不到剋傳會分年編列的五千萬在哪裡"},{"start":348.561,"end":351.325,"text":"姓某主委、委員會主席,想要報告的是,由提北鐵道197千年來種植生片的田羊,希望委內早日參考市場的運作,思想挑擺大家對客家的天時推,"},{"start":364.082,"end":366.863,"text":"本時想請教您的是五千萬是編列在哪裡?五千萬是,因為當年又建築所有跟傳播基金會,當年又補儲傳播兩年的預算對,但是你們是111年才簽約才確認,那為什麼109年就開始編列預算?"},{"start":385.967,"end":393.813,"text":"按照委員報告：從1898年開始：應建築5,000萬份核核傳播基金會：從1898年開始：當年核核原費又建築應核傳費兩億元兩億元預算：所以當年又編列相關預算：來挑戰應核核養殖制度：當年都編列"},{"start":407.162,"end":410.845,"text":"每年編列預算也就是說109年你們開始編列預算那111年才開始執行這個電影的確認它的什麼分廠大綱啊一些的內容才確認那我不曉得前兩年的經費是做在哪裡另外就是根據你們客傳會的預算書第8頁的一些重點工作計畫我們發覺"},{"start":428.8,"end":441.39,"text":"今年度我們編列的預算大概就五千萬會在各類的這個電影投資裏面但是客人會投資1977這部電影就要花五千多萬那請問其他的這個客家電影的計畫是都沒有嗎?那威廉博哥,因為當然除了這張相片的這部電影之外因為當然很有勞,因為香港的傳播基金會在合作其他的電影"},{"start":455.459,"end":479.741,"text":"還有其他的節目：所以今年兩月預算會建築因為香港傳播基金會所得財評商還有節目製作部份又簽所得合法論證所以除了那種相片那種剪輯還有其他的演目的對抗我覺得你的比例太高了尤其是針對1977的這部那張照片那部電影真的投資的比例太高希望我們客委會這邊能夠"},{"start":481.002,"end":481.162,"text":"宣問委員"}]}},{"id":"152412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17346410223319ce673fab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d536dac32b4bbbdb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:42:11 - 09:52:12","影片長度":"00:10:01","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":601,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:52:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:42:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時42分）有請消防署署長，還有銓敘部政次。"],["主席：好，請署長跟政次。"],["蕭署長煥章：主席好、委員好。"],["林委員月琴：兩位好。消防法第一條明定消防員有三大勤務，就是預防火災、災害救助，跟急難救護。從這樣子看來就很明確界定了消防業務繁雜的基礎，主要包含這七大項工作。這七大項工作裡面因應比較繁雜的業務，縣市政府就要組織比較龐大的消防局，同時也要擴及到幅員遼闊的管轄區域。就以桃園市來看的話，勤務部門大概有8個科、1個中心、4個救災救護大隊、1個特搜大隊、41個分隊、4個搜救救助分隊，光是一個縣市就這麼龐大，服務人口比大概是1比1,358人。","剛剛前面兩位委員提到有關傷亡的部分，從2004年到2016年，12年當中，每一年因為救災而殉職的消防人員累計有18位，所以商業保險對於消防員也是最高等級，這樣業務繁雜、幅員廣大、人力吃緊、工作危險，再加上24小時待命輪休的執勤機制，消防人員的工作風險度是比較高的。當然社會大眾也是持續關注我們警消人員的工作安全、設備，跟勞動條件，以及退避權行使的一些問題。","勞工基於與雇主間的聘僱關係，所以制度上有團結權、協商權跟爭議權，再加上一個退避權，事實上這個是比較完整的勞工權益架構，警消人員是公務人員，雇主是國家，跟國家之間的關係受到公法的規定，所以要自行去主張權益的問題上常常就受到法律很多限制，這個問題也討論很久了。所以想來問兩位，不知道消防署或銓敘部哪位可以回答，到底有多少比例的民眾支持消防員擁有罷工權？目前你們有沒有調查？因為很多法律跟政策的溝通，都是現行人民會面對到的，這些有沒有充分做社會溝通？所以想問一下兩位。"],["蕭署長煥章：先跟委員回報，我們先前有針對縣市消防局的意見是怎麼樣進行瞭解，瞭解以後，事實上目前有18個消防局不同意入工會法、組工會，這是第一點。只有一個縣市認為可以入工會法，但是要限制罷工權，這是另外一個狀況，另外有3個機關是保留態度的情形，跟委員先做回報。"],["林委員月琴：所以總共18個縣市事實上是反對的，是消防局這邊。因為銓敘部這邊的調查是調查首長，但剛剛是消防局，這邊的調查總共15個縣市是不贊同，贊同的是6個縣市，一個無意見的是嘉義市，所以想問一下，這15個縣市，尤其是六都，他們反對的理由是什麼？尤其是在野黨，國民黨總共有10個縣市是持反對、不贊同的意見，民眾黨也是反對。所以想問一下，調查的縣市首長他們直接會遇到的問題是什麼？可不可以請銓敘部回答？"],["朱次長楠賢：主要他們認為現在相關配套沒有完整，所以現行還是不宜適用工會法，現階段還是適用協會法。"],["林委員月琴：所謂配套是什麼？因為他們可能會遇到的困難會是什麼？"],["朱次長楠賢：比如說，他們的身分必須要先確定，然後相關的協商機制在協會法裡面沒有辦法得到保障，或是說相關的爭議權在協會法沒有辦法得到施展，所以那時候可能再來做工會法的施行，這幾個縣市包括臺北市、新北市、桃園市、臺中市、臺南市，他們幾乎都是這樣的立場，所以目前認為還是先適用公務人員協會法。"],["林委員月琴：所以他們是支持公務人員協會法。消防署這邊，想問一下各縣市消防員對於組工會的意見，因為剛剛你是講局長，可是想要問的是基層人員，因為我覺得基層人員的感受事實上是最深，事實上也是為了要保障他們的權益，所以想問一下有沒有做過這樣一個調查，他們的觀點，除了工會這個選項以外，有沒有其他的觀點？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，這個部分我們沒有做調查，但是我們現在積極朝向三個部分來進行，是不是方便跟委員報告？"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：就職業安全角度來看，是要從裝備器材的良好充實來執行，這是第一個要件。第二個就是針對整個管理系統來做一個強化。第三個部分是整個組織安全文化，這三個區塊。","在裝備器材的部分，目前消防署已經奉行政院核定23個計畫，計畫達到200億的經費，針對裝備、器材、車輛、廳舍這部分，來強化我們所謂執行安全的第一個腳步。第二個腳步就是這次消防法修正案已經在4月30號把職業安全消防法專章報到行政院，應該在最近會報到立法院來做審查，裡面就是針對整個管理系統、整個組織架構這個部分來做處理，這是第二個部分。第三個部分就是整個消防機關的安全文化，目前我們在5月10號也提報消防人員工作安全衛生綜整計畫，也就是針對職業安全怎麼輔導團隊來做什麼事情，當然在這之前已經跟職安署、勞研所做10個機關的輔導，跟今年16個機關的輔導，明年會全部推動，也就是把職業安全文化落實在消防人員身上，我想這三個層面跟委員做一個回報，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：事實上去年底應該也有提出公務人員協會法增修一些事項，可是今天還是會有這麼多民間團體提出要用工會的型態，因為我也去問過警消人員，他們說工會是屬於勞方的團體，沒有資方的參與，如果用協會法的話，那我坐的對面事實上是我的主管的時候，怎麼可能把我要進行的協商跟團體協議權達成，根本沒有辦法如願達成，可是如果是工會組織的話，全部都是基層，而非有主管在那邊。我想問的是，如果是類工會的組織，協會到底能不能抗拒長官參加？"],["朱次長楠賢：如果是進入協商的話，他一定要對話，所以不太可能說首長不要來。"],["林委員月琴：可是如果是工會的話，它的組成裡面不會有長官，不是嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：對，現在如果將協會法放寬，他們幾乎是比較對等的夥伴去對話，不是說有高低這種差異，沒有那麼明顯，因為……"],["林委員月琴：可是整個工會組織裡面的成員都是同樣的職等，如果雇主去溝通的話，至少是一個工會組織，問題是現在如果是協會法的話，裡邊就是有長官在那邊。"],["朱次長楠賢：所以有後面的機制，協商不成就進入調解，調解機制不行的話再……"],["林委員月琴：我還是要提醒，地位跟籌碼對等才能夠開啟真實的協商跟談判。為什麼會這樣提出？警消的職務大都是外勤，跟其他公務人員不同，這也是他們的心聲；他們的勞動訴求跟坐在辦公室的人員一定是不相同的。如果在協商過程當中，彼此沒有辦法說服而協商破裂，接下來最後不見得一定是罷工，可是有沒有一些機制平衡這些？我想還是要請銓敘部是不是可以好好審視協會法的協商機制是否完備？畢竟不是只有警消，還有其他公務人員也受制於這個。是不是可以儘速送到立法院審查？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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«工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​​​"},{"start":179.796,"end":205.165,"text":"先跟委員回報就是我們有先前針對縣市消防局消防局的意見是怎麼樣那麼瞭解以後事實上目前有18個消防局不同意入工會法組工會這是第一點那只有一個縣市他認為說可以入工會法但是要限制罷工權這是另外一個狀況那有三個機關是保留態度的一個情形跟委員先做回報"},{"start":206.248,"end":213.914,"text":"總共18個縣市事實上是反對的是消防局這邊 那就想問因為全市部這邊的調查裡邊有講說大概"},{"start":220.526,"end":246.559,"text":"也就是各縣市我不知道這是調查首長因為剛剛是消防局那你這邊調查總共15個縣市事實上是不贊同贊同的是6個縣市一個無意見的是嘉義市所以想問一下這15個縣市尤其是六都他們的反對跟支持的就反對的理由是什麼尤其是在野黨的國民黨有總共10個縣市是持反對不贊同的意見"},{"start":247.239,"end":255.657,"text":"民眾黨也是反對,所以想問一下,你調查的是先是首長,因為他們直接甚至會遇到的問題是什麼,可不可以請全序部這邊回答。"},{"start":256.548,"end":284.639,"text":"是,因為主要他們認為現在的相關配套沒有完整所以現行還是不宜適用工會法現階段還是適用那個協會法所謂配套的是什麼?因為他們可能會遇到的困難會是什麼?就比如說他的身份必須要先確定然後相關的這個協商的機制在協會法裡面沒有辦法得到"},{"start":285.299,"end":288.482,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":308.462,"end":332.44,"text":"他們是支持公務人員協會法。那消防組這邊想問一下各縣市的消防員對於組工會。剛剛因為你是講局長可是想還是要問的是因為我覺得基層人員的感受事實上是最深。那因為事實上是要保障他們的權益。所以想問一下有沒有做過這樣的一個調查。那他們的觀點有沒有除了工會這個選項以外有沒有其他的觀點。"},{"start":334.696,"end":356.502,"text":"議員,這個部分我們要做調查,但是我們現在積極朝向三個部分來進行,是不是方便跟我們報告?好。是。就實際安全角度來看,是要從裝備器材的良好,同時來做執行。這是第一個要件。第二個就是針對整個管理系統來做一個強化。第三個部分整個組織安全文化,這是三個區塊。"},{"start":357.822,"end":383.427,"text":"所以在裝備器材的部分目前消防署已經奉憲政院核定23個計畫幾乎快達到200億的經費針對裝備器材、車輛、聽色這個部分來強化我們所謂執行安全的第一個腳步那第二個腳步就是這一次消防法修正案已經在4月30號已經把資源安全的消防法的專章已經報到憲政院應該在最近會報到立法院來做審查"},{"start":384.787,"end":409.974,"text":"獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":410.014,"end":410.034,"text":"),委員"},{"start":425.503,"end":427.905,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具 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️"},{"start":557.466,"end":572.856,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他工會委員會及其他"},{"start":584.204,"end":584.224,"text":"),委員"}]}},{"id":"152411","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17340ac12ec493d79b6ca2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d176963589987de955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:46:03 - 09:54:49","影片長度":"00:08:46","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":526,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:54:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:46:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時46分）有請田次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["黃委員仁：我先講一個題外話，今天創造了一個歷史，是什麼？就是部長提告國會議員這樣的一個例子，這就是我們在國會裡面一直要趕快提出藐視國會罪的原因，包含調查權、聽證權的目的就在這裡，官員來這個地方就是準備備詢，不是反質詢，所以這個部分必須要跟部長提示，這個創造了世界裡面……哪有部長提告國會的議員？這樣的一個立場，實在是非常不解，請次長將我的立場轉達給部長。","至於立陶宛代表處可能會遭除名的部分，我國的立陶宛辦事處會不會被改名？因為5月12號總統選舉在進行中，而現在的總統在選前就已經說希望我國駐外的立陶宛代表處改為臺北處，有沒有這回事？"],["田次長中光：選舉期間政治人物的發言，我們予以尊重。"],["黃委員仁：你們的態度呢？"],["田次長中光：但是，委員，您如果有注意到12號的時候，記者問瑙塞達：萬一你選上總統的話，你對臺灣的態度是什麼？他的說法已經更改了，他要持續跟臺灣維持文化與經濟的深化，所以我認為那個部分可能是選舉上的一種語言。"],["黃委員仁：好，你們現在有沒有掌握到立陶宛官方目前正與對岸大陸有一些密切地、正常化關係，有沒有掌握到？"],["田次長中光：有的。"],["黃委員仁：有，所以你們有沒有危機意識？今天會有這樣的一個態度，就表示你們外交部現在是岌岌可危，你們應該要著重在這個角度。我上次在質詢部長的時候，特別提出與海地的關係是不是岌岌可危、會不會有變數？你們部長特別提出說沒有變數，但是他在媒體上面就已經提出他有兩個隱憂，第一個就是海地，第二個是瓜地馬拉，已經有隱憂在這個地方。當然在520之前，你們要掩蓋事實還是覆蓋這個事實，不要在520之後發生這樣的問題，到了520之後，是不是有這樣的危機，而且是非常嚴重的，你們應該要誠實以對，告訴國人即將要發生的問題，你來回答一下。"],["田次長中光：對不起，委員，您剛剛說部長有提到那兩個國家嗎？"],["黃委員仁：不是。"],["田次長中光：好像沒有。"],["黃委員仁：他對外、對媒體……"],["田次長中光：他是說兩個國家有隱憂，我聽到的是這樣。"],["黃委員仁：對。"],["田次長中光：而且部長也講得非常清楚，在短期之內，我們不至於有這個問題；長期來看，我們確實會有隱憂，這也就是為什麼外交部在處理很多對外事物的時候，非常非常地小心，方方面面都要注意到，因為我們面對的是一個強大的對象，不時地想挖我們的邦交國。"],["黃委員仁：好，所以在520之前你們認為沒有，但是有這個隱憂存在，這也是部長親口對著媒體所講的，有這兩個隱憂。"],["田次長中光：確實。"],["黃委員仁：你們本來就應該常常有隱憂，因為我們的邦交國只剩下12個，現在沒有突發性的，你們卻要再挹注東歐這個國家。現在520就職有8個國家的正副元首會來參加，另外4國，1個屬於教廷之外，另外3國是不是有隱憂？這個隱憂是不是有可能展現出他們對我國未來可能要斷交的可能性？為什麼他們不來？你來回答一下。"],["田次長中光：其他3個國家都會來，教廷也會派特使來，但是以層級來說，可能不是總理或總統，是副總理或副總統，教廷也會派特使，所以12個邦交國都會有高層級的代表來參加就職大典。"],["黃委員仁：另外4國裡面，除了教廷之外，另外3國如果跟我國的邦交是正常化的，12個國家應該都會派正副元首，不是特使，不是大使，表示這3個國家是不是也存在著一個隱憂？因為我國挹注東歐這樣的一個國家的關係，所以造成他們的不滿，是不是這樣？"],["田次長中光：謝謝委員的提醒，不過我本人也做過總統的特使，去參加馬紹爾的就職大典，這不代表我們跟馬紹爾有外交、邦交的危機，這完全是看它國內那個時候的狀態，那些正副元首是不是真的有別的業務要去處理，所以它會派其他代表，不過可以跟委員報告，這些會來參加的都是相當相當高階層的代表。"],["黃委員仁：好，你剛剛講的馬紹爾，去年10月有一個學者叫黃介正，他提醒諾魯邦交可能生變，結果外交部反而大罵黃介正，這個新任的總統為我國長期友人，堅定支持兩國邦誼，結果最終不到3個月的時間，諾魯就與我國斷交，所以你們今天所講的，你們要負責任，不能夠斷言，你們抱持希望，也一定要產生一個隱憂。"],["田次長中光：一定會。"],["黃委員仁：另外，上次我特別跟外交部長提出來，我們國內的原住民是屬於南島語系的民族，希望可以作為有任所的大使，跟南島語系民族的20個聯邦國進行邦交，增加我們外交的力量，你們有沒有這個思考？"],["田次長中光：有的，跟委員報告，上次我們也報告過了。"],["黃委員仁：不是無任所，現在是說有任所，可以實質有權跟我們這些南島語系民族的國家進行邦交，這是促進我們國家邦交的一個立場。"],["田次長中光：我們以前斐濟的代表好像就是原住民出身的，所以其實外交部在這一塊都有注意到各個族群，他怎麼樣在他的職業生涯中做到一個大使，這個我們會特別做，但是我們不會獨厚一個族群，這個是不會的，我想你也不會要求我們獨厚一個族群，我們是公平的競爭，看他的能力、表現。"],["黃委員仁：希望520之後你們可以思考這個議題。"],["田次長中光：是的。"],["黃委員仁：因為這對於我國、對於邦交，絕對是一個大大的助力，好不好？以上。"],["田次長中光：好，謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3472187500000001,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.44409375,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.476593750000003,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.26909375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.44159375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.549093750000004,"end":41.729093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.96534375,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.275968750000004,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.321593750000005,"end":63.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.58221875,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.25284375000001,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.16596875,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.78909375,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.45909375000001,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.20534375000001,"end":99.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.99846875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.13346875,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.40346875,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.75346875000001,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.77909375,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.82534375,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.21284375000002,"end":132.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.25909375,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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:"就此的520有8個國家政府研所會來參加那另外4個國一個隨教廷之外另外3國是不是有隱憂這個隱憂是不是可能會展現出他們對我們國內進行未來可能要斷交的可能性為什麼他們不來你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":312.881,"end":341.234,"text":"我們其他的三個都會來教廷也會派特使來但是層級來說可能不是總理或總統的他是副總理或者副總統教廷也會派特使所以12個邦交國都會有高級的代表來參加另外四國裡面除了教廷之外另外三國應該如果假使對我們國內的邦交是正常化"},{"start":342.034,"end":342.414,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":362.415,"end":364.178,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒不過我本人也做過總統的特使去參加馬紹爾"},{"start":377.739,"end":378.44,"text":"你剛剛講的馬紹爾去年的實業"},{"start":403.658,"end":413.875,"text":"有一個學者叫黃介正提醒落魯邦交可能生變結果外交部反而大罵黃介正結果到最後勒"},{"start":417.791,"end":441.431,"text":"這個新任的總統為我國長期有人堅定支持兩國邦誼最終不到三個月的時間落魯就以我國斷交所以你們今天所講的你們要負責任但是不能夠斷言你們希望也一定要產生一個隱憂一定會另外上次我跟外交部長我特別提出來"},{"start":442.432,"end":462.83,"text":"我們國內的原住民是屬於南東以西的民族希望能夠跟南東以西的民族裡面20個聯邦國可以作為我們有任所的大使進行邦交增加我們的外交的力量你們有沒有這個思考"},{"start":463.74,"end":483.576,"text":"有的跟委員報告您上次大概我們也報告過了不是無認所現在是有認所可以實質有權跟我們這些南島語系的民俗的國家裡面作為進行的邦交這是促進我們國內增加邦交的一個立場"},{"start":485.117,"end":511.292,"text":"我們以前斐濟的代表好像就是原住民出來的所以其實外交部在這一塊都有到注意到各個族群他怎麼樣在他的職業生涯上做到一個大使這個我們會特別做但是我們不會獨厚一個族群我想這個不會的你也不會要求我們獨厚一個族群我們是公平的競爭希望520之後你們可以思考這個議題因為這是對我國"},{"start":513.953,"end":514.193,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152410","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152410","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734044371078b12712aba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4def00c3ddfecfa1d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:38:09 - 09:51:25","影片長度":"00:13:16","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":796,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:51:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:38:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":169,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時38分）好，謝謝召委，我們有請潘文忠部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，今天是您最後一次在這裡答詢，本來我有在想是不是要給你很多的時間，讓你好好暢談一下七年多來二進一出教育部，在這七年多當中，我想不管是歷經了大家很關注的，從拔管案，然後少子化的衝擊，到108課綱的爭議、私校退場條例等等，歷經過這些爭議，同時我們也一起完成國教法、特教法這幾部大法的修法，我想七年多來應該功勞、苦勞都有啦！所以是不是給你30秒來談一下你的心得，一個臨別感言好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，因為委員對教育也都很深入，所以我們有好多的對話，不管在詢答或私下的過程，我也跟委員報告，因為教育真的盤根錯節，各方的期待也有很大的差異，所以在遂行教育公共政策，我自己很堅持的是希望能夠多溝通啦！然後在整個政策的推動各方面，也不要太單一、一言化，這個我一直認為，因為你也是學生家長，更知道家長們的期許其實差異也大，所以……"],["萬委員美玲：那有沒有什麼遺憾？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，因為教育一棒接一棒，我認為這七年多來謝謝大院給我很大的支持，教育部的同仁也全力做，包含剛才委員講的我們去年的兩部大法、六十幾項的子法，我也在上個禮拜統統把它完成了，當然，後續我相信以教育的議題，早上我也有跟陳培瑜委員在講學生輔導法是關係到孩子未來在校園內能不能有更好的友善互動，避免遭受人身各方面的攻擊，這個我還要再努力。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝，我想部長臨別一定有很多話說，但是我相信以後你應該還是在教育的領域裡面，很多事情還可以繼續來關心喔！今天針對召委排的這個議題我想來請教一下，我們過去有新南向專班對不對？現在我們又再增加了一個新型專班，這個新型專班大概也是希望能夠擴大國際生來臺、留臺的一個計畫，我們看到在113年至116年總共大概預計編列52億的預算，要做10個海外招生基地，目前也已經有了3個招生基地在做，我看您報告上是越南、印尼跟菲律賓，我們預估要招收的人數是1,200人。不過，部長我看到您的報告裡面，現在核定了35校123班，所以整個人數上是2,301人，比預估的還要多出了1,101人，可以說達成率是192%，怎麼會這麼多？這個數字是正確的嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個是正確的數字。"],["萬委員美玲：這個數字是正確的？"],["潘部長文忠：因為這次在新型專班這部分，跟過往國際學生招生有比較大不同的地方，這次是企業充分的參與，因為也是我們國內企業……"],["萬委員美玲：企業充分參與一定是好的啦！"],["潘部長文忠：因為它還會每個月給他們類似生活津貼的這種費用啦！"],["萬委員美玲：好，但是我們看到在4月17號，那時候你預估大概是100班、1,857人，1個月不到的時間，現在變23班、444人，為什麼這個會衝那麼快？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，過程還在修正計畫，有些學校他們其實已經申請了，有提出再修正計畫，後來計畫修正也確定了，所以現在委員這個數據應該是目前為止最新的數據。"],["萬委員美玲：是最新的數據喔？"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["萬委員美玲：好，再來我們看到在過去新南向專班的時候，我們畢業留臺的就業率，按照教育部的報告大概有64%左右的一個留臺就業率，而我們現在看到現在這個新的計畫是4年希望額外增加來臺就學人數是1萬8,568人，希望留臺就業率是1萬9,777人。這個數字蠻奇怪的，也就是說，來臺就學沒有這麼多人，為什麼留臺就業可以比來臺就學的人更多？甚至留臺就就業率會超過100%，這個數字是怎麼回事？"],["潘部長文忠：因為在這個報告裡面，教育部有把最近從新南向產攜專班到擴大重點領域，到現在所提的這一些，還有我們的高教深耕，它其實是一個能夠以一定的基礎之下，再來不斷地擴充，所以增加出來這個部分的就業，包含我們前面的一些，它其實會有這樣的外溢的效果。"],["萬委員美玲：你是說包含什麼？因為這個數字有一個很大的落差嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：對，我們在過去相關的措施，國際學生、境外學生留下來在臺灣工作，大概四成……"],["萬委員美玲：不是，部長，我曉得嘛！但現在因為你來臺的學生數就沒有這麼多，你怎麼會留臺的學生數可以超過來臺的學生數？本席的問題是這一個。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，這部分為什麼當時呈現這個也是要讓委員知道這幾個措施，其實它是增加了我們講的叫外溢的效益啦！我也跟委員報告，因為……"],["萬委員美玲：從哪裡的外溢？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，本來也有很多境外的外籍學生在臺灣啊，所以我們在深耕計畫裡面設了一個非常重要的措施，希望學校要成立專責的人員，因為以前國際學生畢業以後就回去了……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，這樣子本席能瞭解，但是我希望你以後報告或計畫要再寫清楚一點。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：因為你專程for這個計畫來一萬八千多個人，然後留臺要一萬九，這就不對了嘛！如果你是有外溢，還有其他的加進來……"],["潘部長文忠：我們再把它完整說明……"],["萬委員美玲：我們當然希望人數是可以多的，但你不能給這個其實是錯誤的資訊，好不好？這個拜託一下。"],["潘部長文忠：好，瞭解委員所提到的，我們做檢討修正。"],["萬委員美玲：以後我們計畫跟報告數字要詳實。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來，部長，我還是要請教你一下，您在任這麼多年，也非常重視校園霸凌。但是早上您也說了，我們在桃園的這所私立高中，有一部霸凌的影片流出來，您也看過了，就您看完了以後，覺得這算不算霸凌？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，實質我們……但如果從影像所看到的當然是霸凌。"],["萬委員美玲：對，從影像上看到是霸凌喔！但是我們其實在4月16號的時候，教育部才新修訂了校園霸凌防制準則，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我們希望去補所有校園霸凌的漏洞，儘量把這個破網補起來，可是才沒隔多久就發生了桃園私立高中這個霸凌的案件，而且在這中間的處理，學校可以說是荒腔走板啦！當然，我相信沒有一個學校會惡意地、刻意地要把這個霸凌案件去壓下來，但處理過程粗糙，以及可能沒有照按照這個準則去做，那就會引起很多的問題嘛！霸凌準則下去了以後，本席發現其實很多的學校還不太清楚準則的內容是什麼，所以教育部在各個教育局或者是各學校的宣導上面是不是要加強？這第一個。","第二個，我們來看這個學校，現在大家都在講，在第一時間學校就說家長之間和解了，結果更離譜是他說我沒有講和解，而是我請他們來瞭解，然後教育部就說希望能調解，但最後其實大家根本不瞭解、不知道，就無解了，你知道嗎？你看這個準則弄得亂七八糟以後，光一個名詞，可以弄到這個事件更複雜喔！所以，我們看到根據這個準則，案件發生24小時之內，要通報主管機關，對不對？接下來的準則部長知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：瞭解。"],["萬委員美玲：這個準則你都瞭解嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：瞭解。"],["萬委員美玲：你都瞭解，好。所以也要審議小組來認定是不是霸凌，5日之內要組成有一半外部委員的處理小組，然後才能進入雙方是不是能夠調和、調解或是調查嘛！最短1週，最長不可以超過4個月，要把這件事情去結案，所以我們看到這所私立高中，其實都沒有按照這樣的一個步驟在走。所以校園霸凌防制準則下去以後，各校根本現在一知半解啊！所以宣導上，我們是不是要再加強一下？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員指教，確實我們這次整個修訂後，一個比較大的措施，把教職員工對於生拉開來，那在目前校園霸凌準則，就以生對生來做一個處理，所以在機制上讓學校不會混淆。但是委員剛才所提醒的，因為霸凌準則花了滿長時間溝通、對話，我講的當然是在研商這個過程所提出來的，而發布到現在時間還算比較短，委員剛才提醒的，雖然過去我們已經辦了幾場的這些宣導說明，但我覺得這個部分還要持續地做……"],["萬委員美玲：我希望還要再加強，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：對，尤其有個案的學校發生後，我們可能更可以用這個機會去瞭解學校在執行霸凌準則相關的作業程序，看有什麼地方是被誤解的……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我們再來看兩個表格，第一個，本席整理了一下108到112年，我們生對生校園霸凌的通報跟確認件數，我們看總計的地方就好，108年的時候767件，到112年的時候2,502件，可以說成長了三倍多啦，這是生對生在校園霸凌的通報案件，當然確認數其實是蠻低的喔！可是，這個確認數我相信有各種原因，是不是應該要更詳加去調查？該確認的就要確認起來。","我們再看第二張表，第二張表是各級暴力事件跟偏差行為通報的案件數，我們也可以看到從108年的9,385件，一直到112年的2萬6,171件，也成長了近三倍。所以，部長，這一次我們看到這所私立高中的霸凌影片，其實真的讓我們非常心痛，不要說我也是一個為人母的角色去看，任何人看到其實都覺得太離譜、太誇張喔！先是打巴掌、呼頭，接下來用剪刀去剪頭髮這一幕，我相信大家看了，那不是剪那個孩子的頭髮，而是剪得每一個人的心都碎了喔！因為我們要知道，其實這個就是一種接近是毀容的行為了，身體髮膚受之父母，尤其是女孩子最在乎了，頭髮就像他第二生命一樣，所以我想這個事情其實是還蠻嚴重的喔！但是，我們看到這幾年，我們不斷地在做，不斷地在關注，但是生對生校園霸凌的案件數，跟各級暴力事件跟偏差行為還是不斷地在成長，我們的教育到底怎麼了？這個真的是值得我們來深思的，到底我們的教育怎麼了？如果只是一直用準則去規範，一直用處罰去做事後的處罰，我想這不是教育的根本之道。","最後，在這個案件當中出現一個問題，我們都知道，現在要求教官退出校園，所以不足的人力我們用學務創新人力去代替。但是，以這個學校為例，本來應該有四名教官缺，但是因為遇缺不補，所以只有兩個教官，那麼這兩個教官要負責全校將近1,400個學生，所以校安其實有漏洞。那你說另外補那兩個缺，結果補不進來啊！因為如果學校地處偏遠、交通不便，就幾乎沒有人要去，所以現在有很多學校在學務創新人力、校安人力的部分其實是不足的。部長，本席在這裡請求你，我們現在就是來做統一的甄選，尤其在六都都是由教育局去做統一甄選，但是一旦在第一時間甄選完畢，沒有人要來的時候，這個專案結束掉，這個學校就繼續空缺了。因為桃園市教育局其實也有發文到教育部去，能不能讓這些透過統一甄選但是補不到人的學校用專案的方式再自行去聘足校安人力？否則這樣人力真的不足以支應現在節節高升的校園霸凌跟行為偏差事件，部長，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，跟委員報告，我想在人力的甄選補充這方面，我請國教署跟學特司再做一個研處，因為人還是要到位，教官是換成1.5位，聘不到人就是0的意思，這一點我請我們兩個單位在這方面來做一個研處因應。"],["萬委員美玲：我想在臨別時最後給您這一個任務，能不能請他們在一個月內把協議的結果告訴我們？"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席（羅委員廷瑋代）：好，我們謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。","下一位請我們的召委柯志恩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.12534375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.96784375,"end":53.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.18721875,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.23784375,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":83.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.93784375,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.35971875,"end":83.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.64659375000001,"end":84.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.27096875000001,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":84.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.37221875,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.99659375,"end":124.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.62784375000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.41659375,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.22096875000003,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.72471875000002,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.04096875000002,"end":206.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.63096875000002,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.13721875000002,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.17096875000001,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":224.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.90721875000003,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.66471875000002,"end":273.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.95159375000003,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.22159375,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.65909375,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.03034375000004,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.04721875,"end":274.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.31721875,"end":299.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.29221875,"end":301.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.23284375000003,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.37596875,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.58096875,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.03659375,"end":324.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.18284375,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.08159375,"end":392.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.79409375,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.04284375000003,"end":356.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.65346875,"end":366.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.07471875000005,"end":371.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.51284375,"end":373.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.66159375,"end":397.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.63971875000004,"end":495.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.10221875,"end":408.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.93659375000004,"end":530.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.6653437500001,"end":539.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.60909375,"end":577.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.2253437500001,"end":567.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.9365937499999,"end":769.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.5647187500001,"end":787.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.5534687500001,"end":797.1384687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.975,"end":7.275,"text":"潘文忠列席"},{"start":28.844,"end":34.786,"text":"大家很關注的從這個把管案然後少子化的衝擊到108課綱的爭議私校退場條例等等那歷經過這些爭議同時呢我們也一起完成過國教法特教法這幾部大法的一個修法我想這個七年多來應該功勞苦勞都有了那所以是不是給你個30秒來談一下你的心得這個一個臨別感言好不好"},{"start":53.933,"end":80.654,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員對教育也都很深入所以我們有好多的對話不管在詢答或私下的過程那我也跟委員報告因為教育真的是盤根錯節各方的期待也有很大的差異所以在遂行教育公共政策我自己很堅持的是希望能夠多溝通然後在整個政策的推動各方面也不要太單一一言化這個我一直認為因為你是學生家長的你更知道家長們的期許其實差異也大"},{"start":83.416,"end":103.168,"text":"有沒有什麼遺憾我跟委員報告因為教育一棒接一棒我認為這七年多來謝謝大院也給我很大的支持教育部的同仁全力做能做的包括剛才委員講我們去年的兩部大法這個60幾項的執法我也在上個禮拜通通把它完成了"},{"start":104.409,"end":123.46,"text":"那當然後續我相信以教育的議題還是不斷我早上我有跟陳培文在講我說學生輔導法這是一個關係到孩子未來在校園內能不能更好的友善互動避免這種遭受人身各方面的攻擊這個我還在努力"},{"start":124.56,"end":145.705,"text":"謝謝,我想這個部長一定零別有很多話說啦,但是我相信這以後啊,您應該還是在教育的領域裡面,那很多事情還可以繼續來關心。但今天呢,針對召委排的這個議題,我想來請教一下,那我們過去有這個新南向專班嘛,對不對,然後現在我們又再增加了一個新型專班,那這個新型專班大家也是希望能夠擴大國際生來臺、留臺的一個計畫,"},{"start":148.746,"end":148.766,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":165.407,"end":170.049,"text":"我們預估要招收的人數是1200人不過部長我看到您的報告裡面現在合訂了35校123班所以整個人數上是2301人比預估的還要多出了1101人可以說達成率是192班怎麼會這麼多 這個數字是正確的嗎"},{"start":188.886,"end":194.772,"text":"跟我們報告這個是正確的數字這個數字是正確的因為這一次在進行專班這部分跟過往國際學生招生有比較大的不同的地方這一次是企業充分的參與因為也是我們國內企業企業充分參與一定是好的因為他還會給他們每個月有像類似生活津貼的這種費用"},{"start":212.21,"end":212.771,"text":"委員那個過程還在修正計畫有些學校他們其實已經申請了"},{"start":230.347,"end":231.088,"text":"新南向專班畢業留台就業率64%來台就學人數18568人"},{"start":258.49,"end":271.156,"text":"那希望留臺就業率是19777人這個數字蠻奇怪的也就是說來臺就學沒有這麼多人為什麼留臺就業可以比來臺就學人更多那甚至於留臺就業率會超過100%"},{"start":274.157,"end":303.116,"text":"這個數字是怎麼回事我跟委員報告齁因為在這個報告裡面教育部有把最近從新南向產息專班到擴大重點領域到現在所提的這一些還有我們的高教生根它其實是一個能夠以一定的基礎之下再來不斷的來擴充那所以增加出來的這個部分的就業即使包含我們前面的一些它其實會有這樣的外溢的效果你是說包含什麼因為這個數字有一個很大的落差嘛"},{"start":303.976,"end":323.344,"text":"因為過往根文報告現在我們在過去的相關的措施國際學生境外學生留下來在臺灣工作大概4成不是那個部長我曉得嘛那現在因為你來臺的學生數就沒有這麼多那你怎麼會留臺的學生數可以超過來臺的學生數本席的問題是這一個"},{"start":324.304,"end":348.72,"text":"沒有 委員這部分為什麼當時在呈現這個也是要讓委員知道說這幾個措施即使它是增加了我們講的叫外溢的效益那這部分我也跟委員報告因為從哪裡的外溢沒有 它本來也有很多的境外的外籍學生在臺灣所以我們在生根計畫裡面有設了一個非常重要的措施希望學校要成立專責的人員因為以前國際學生畢業以後就回去了"},{"start":351.061,"end":368.96,"text":"好部長這樣子本能了解但是我希望你以後報告或計畫要再寫清楚一點因為你專程否這個計畫來一萬八千多個人然後流台要一萬九這就不對了嘛如果你是有外溢還有其他的加進來我們當然希望這個人數是可以多的但你不能給這個其實是錯誤的資訊好不好這個擺脫一下以後我們計畫跟報告數字要詳細"},{"start":377.366,"end":392.091,"text":"您在任這麼多年,也非常重視校園霸凌。早上您也說了,我們在桃園的這所私立高中有一部霸凌的影片流出來,您也看過了。就您看完了以後,覺得這算不算霸凌?"},{"start":392.691,"end":395.112,"text":"對 從影像上看到是霸凌但是我覺得我們其實在4月16號的時候教育部才新修訂了校園霸凌防制準則 對不對"},{"start":408.7,"end":409.06,"text":"王美玲教授"},{"start":424.955,"end":436.345,"text":"那當然我相信沒有一個學校會惡意的刻意的要把這個霸凌案件去壓下來但處理過程的粗糙以及可能沒有按照這個準則去做那就會引起很多的問題嘛好 那我們來看這個霸凌準則下去了以後本身發現其實很多的學校還不太清楚這個準則的這個內容是什麼"},{"start":447.014,"end":447.114,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":470.979,"end":495.005,"text":"了解教育部就說這個是希望能調解那最後呢其實是大家根本不了解不知道無解你知道嗎那你看喔這個準則弄得亂七八糟以後光一個名詞可以弄到這個事件更複雜喔所以呢我們看到根據這個準則案件發生24小時之內要通報主管機關嘛對不對那接下來的這個準則部長知道嗎"},{"start":496.472,"end":521.311,"text":"這個準則你都了解嗎?你都了解,好那所以呢也要審議小組來認定是不是霸凌五日之內要組成有一半外部委員的處理小組然後才能進入雙方是不是能夠調和、調解或是調查嘛那最短一週、最長不可以超過四個月要把這件事情去結案喔所以我們看到這所私立高中其實都沒有按照這樣的一個步驟在走"},{"start":522.071,"end":524.152,"text":"謝謝委員指教這個確實我們這次整個修訂後一個比較大的措施把師對就教職員工對於生拉開來"},{"start":541.403,"end":541.423,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":568.218,"end":569.579,"text":"一百零八年的時候七百六十七件到一百一十二年的時候兩千五百零二件"},{"start":597.409,"end":597.609,"text":"第二張表"},{"start":615.1,"end":643.524,"text":"那第二張表呢是這個各級暴力事件跟偏差行為的一個這個通報的案件數我們也可以看到從108年的9385件一直到112年的26171件也成長了近三倍所以其實部長這一次我們看到這所私立高中的這個霸凌的影片其實真的讓我們非常心痛不要說我也是一個為人母的角色去看任何人看到其實都覺得"},{"start":644.144,"end":659.351,"text":"太離譜太誇張了那麼先是打巴掌呼頭那麼接下來其實用剪刀去剪頭髮這一幕其實我相信大家看的那不是剪那個孩子的頭髮剪得每一個人的心都碎了因為我們要知道其實這個就是一種接近是毀容的行為了身體髮膚受之父母"},{"start":661.892,"end":686.82,"text":"尤其是女孩子最在乎了這個頭髮就像她第二生命一樣所以我想這個事件其實是還蠻嚴重的但是呢我們看到這幾年我們不斷地在做那不斷地在關注但是呢生對生的校園霸凌的案件數跟各級暴力事件跟偏差行為還是不斷地在成長我想我們的教育到底怎麼了這個真的是值得我們來深思的到底我們的教育怎麼了如果只是一直用準則去規範一直用處罰"},{"start":689.301,"end":717.96,"text":"去做事後的處罰我想這不是教育的根本之道最後在這個案件當中出現一個問題我們都知道現在要求教官退出校園所以不足的人力我們用學務創新人力去代替但是以這個學校本來應該有四名教官缺但因為預缺不補所以只有兩個教官那麼這兩個教官要負責全校一千將近四百個學生所以校安其實有漏洞那你說另外補那兩個缺"},{"start":719.121,"end":740.265,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":740.345,"end":768.9,"text":"那都是由這個教育局去做統一甄選但是一旦在第一時間甄選完畢沒有人要來的時候這個專案結束掉這個學校就繼續空缺了我們是不是能夠因為桃園市教育局其實也有發文到教育部去能不能讓這一些通過統一甄選但是補不到人的學校可以用專案的方式再自行去聘足這個校安人力否則這樣人力真的不足以支應現在節節高升的校園霸凌跟這個行為偏差事件部長可以嗎"},{"start":769.602,"end":796.45,"text":"好,各位報告我想在人力的徵選補充這方面我請國教組跟學特師再做一個研組因為人還是要到位因為教官是換成1.5位聘不到人就是0的意思這點我想我請我們兩個單位在這方面來做一個研組因應我想這個您臨別最後給您的一個任務能不能一個月內請他們把這個協議的結果告訴我們可以好,謝謝好,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173427b87d65234897d1076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d2660ba6cc41290bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:38:54 - 09:46:44","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":470,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:46:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:38:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時38分）主席，請副主委。"],["主席：請鍾副主委。"],["王委員美惠：再請勞動部副司長。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員早。"],["王委員美惠：早。本席今天要跟你們探討從臺北遷去桃園的事情，其中有兩個地方，一個在南港，一個在我們這裡附近，這兩個要遷去桃園，因為環境的關係，所以明年底就開始準備要遷，但是你們同仁現在原則上是在臺北上班，現在要去桃園上班。你們剛才說有問過、有調查過，大約有多少人要繼續去那裡上班？來回答一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分是不是可以請基金會來說明？"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["主席：我們有請瑪拉歐斯董事長還有馬耀．谷木，謝謝。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員早安。"],["王委員美惠：早安。你們開會調查到目前為止，有多少人不想去？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：差不多15%要留在臺北。"],["王委員美惠：15%要留在臺北？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["王委員美惠：本席再請教你一下，留在臺北哪一個地方？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們未來會在臺北租一個辦公空間，就比較緊急的業務做辦理，所以大部分我們會有一個總部的概念在這邊。"],["王委員美惠：這樣也不對，你們的做法怎麼會是這樣？你們已經要把兩個單位移去桃園這個永久的地方，你們調查有15%不要去，然後再租一個辦公室讓他們在這裡上班，這樣怎麼對？這樣是不對的耶！你是不是要說清楚？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員是說如果這15%不要去桃園要怎麼處理嗎？"],["王委員美惠：是。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們可能就會依勞動基準法去資遣，就會有他的福利……"],["王委員美惠：這樣問題來了……"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：剛剛是說我們辦公的地方這樣啦！"],["王委員美惠：但是你們未來辦公的地方要整個移去永久的地方，那你們就要整個移去，臺北就沒有了，還有一個辦公室要做什麼？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：因為新聞的製作，我們在臺北市會有一個辦公空間，比較方便辦理臺北市的新聞。"],["王委員美惠：不過這樣你們的規劃就不對了，你們媒體一旦要移去那，就要想到臺北跟媒體比較近嘛？所以你們當初要移去桃園的時候，就要思考到這個問題了，為什麼還要兩個都移去桃園那個永久的地方？這是一個問題。針對你們所有的計畫、現在辦公室要做什麼，請在一個禮拜把資料給我。","再來，本席要談資遣費，在這個total之下，我覺得在這85%裡願意去桃園，因為搬遷就是要跟著去桃園這個地方上班，如果他原本很願意去，不過去到桃園之後，他覺得越來越不適合那個環境，他還要坐車還有小孩的問題，種種問題跟租屋的問題，他在臺北住得好好的，不過他為了環境，工作也難找，他去桃園住一、兩個月覺得自己不適合的時候要如何是好？請回答一下。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們對員工在搬遷到桃園以後會有三個比較重要的部分，一個是租屋的補貼，第二個是……"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！我知道有租有住有什麼，不過人與人之間有時候……譬如我家在南部，我在中部住不習慣的時候，也會想要回去南部，這個補助都有了，只是他覺得自己沒辦法適應，去住一、兩個月後他認為不適合，這樣他是要資遣還是……","勞動部副司長來回答一下。"],["主席：請副司長。"],["黃副司長琦雅：委員好，剛剛委員詢問如果是搬遷調動，當下他如果沒有辦法過去，因為他……"],["王委員美惠：沒有，他已經願意去了，調動的時候他願意去了，但是他去那邊一個月之後覺得自己不適合，他小孩也不適合，每樣都不適合，他想要回來的時候，你們單位要怎麼處理？"],["黃副司長琦雅：委員說的是有很多搬遷的這種個案，這個就是所謂的猶豫期，目前在法律面上，我們規範基本的是搬遷時候的離職，因為有工會，很多工會會跟雇主談，委員關心的就是要讓員工有一些猶豫期……"],["王委員美惠：對！這是重點，我從剛才問到現在將近4分鐘就是要問這個重點。"],["黃副司長琦雅：委員提的猶豫期，我們很多企業會跟工會談，在搬遷之前會談猶豫期要多久，猶豫期到了的時候，員工還有一個選擇，如果員工要離開，那個選擇是不是優於法令，給予一些補償，這個會在雙方協商的時候議定下來。"],["王委員美惠：好，副主委，剛才他這樣說，你有聽到啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，有聽到，因為不願意的話，當然非自願離職必須有一些失業給付，但是那個緩衝期……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！我現在是要跟你說，該給他們的、該讓他們選擇的，有時候他們到那裡之後，發現環境真的不適合，當初沒有這個選擇的時候，是不是有緩衝？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員有先見之明，因為有人搬過去還會猶豫，所以我們會跟基金會討論是不是有一個緩衝期，讓員工有這樣的一個思考。"],["王委員美惠：你們如果要緩衝期的話，本席建議你最起碼要三個月，因為要三個月他才有辦法適應、把小孩安排好，他也安排好、找房子等等，所以最少要給他們三個月的緩衝，我覺得這個要去注意一下，以上。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員，我們把它列入研究參考。"],["主席：非常謝謝美惠委員的質詢。","很遺憾你們今天在這個說明裡面並沒有提到，而是委員質詢了，你們才清楚必須要有三個月的期限，讓他有一個適應期。今天為什麼也請勞動部來？就是針對我們搬遷員工的權益問題，其實你們開了那麼多次會，似乎好像沒有談到重點裡面，而且也沒有告訴我們你們要怎麼解決，好不好？謝謝。","繼續請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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請坐15%是說不要去桃園要不要怎麼處理我們可能就會依勞動基準法去支錢"},{"start":165.303,"end":180.008,"text":"去之前：就會有他的福利：來,我們的問題來了 他說我們辦公的所在這樣啦喔,辦公的所在：你們未來辦公的所在,你們整個要去刷去永久下,你們就要整個刷,又代罷沒辦法"},{"start":181.568,"end":183.249,"text":"因為這個新聞的製作在台北市我們會有一個會有一個辦公空間比較方便台北市的新聞的辦理這樣"},{"start":211.768,"end":215.372,"text":"所以我說是怎樣才能兩個都刷去永久的同意這是一個問題本來跟你們說的你們要來你們所有的機會現在辦公室要做什麼一星期來"},{"start":228.804,"end":234.106,"text":"先讓我,再來本席要跟你說的就是說,你說之前會啦,在這個總統你們在這裡問的時候,那我覺得在這個85%裡面,我願意去討論,因為搬遷嘛,就是對這個所在去討論上班,但是在"},{"start":252.873,"end":254.976,"text":"我認為我非常滿意,但到了通行時,我認為我越來越不適合那個環境,我更愛坐車,跟小孩的問題、中小孩的問題,跟族群的問題,因為我在台北住好,但我為了環境,"},{"start":273.837,"end":284.453,"text":"我亦派出頭路,我去到桃園,坐一、兩個月薪,我感冒我沒適合的時候,要如何是好來,請回答謝。"},{"start":285.18,"end":296.747,"text":"報告委員,我們對員工在搬遷到桃園以後會有三個比較重要的部分,一個是租屋的補貼,第二個是…沒有啦,我現在都知道要租屋、要大、要什麼,員工人家人的時間,有時候我在南部,我來中部住不下的時候,我也會想到要回到南部的時候,這個補助都有啦,只是我覺得我沒辦法適應,"},{"start":313.456,"end":324.702,"text":"去打一、二個維新我認為沒有適合這樣他是要資遣還是會離議的來,你回答一下來,勞動部來,副市長來是,委員好來,副市長報告,剛剛委員詢問的是說如果是搬遷調動當下我如果沒有辦法過去因為他其實工作地點沒有,我一定願意要去是是是"},{"start":342.19,"end":342.99,"text":"委員說的是有很多搬遷的這種個案這個就是所謂的猶豫期"},{"start":361.235,"end":375.096,"text":"目前在法律面上面我們規範基本的是搬遷時候的離職但是呢很多的因為有工會很多工會會跟僱主談委員關心的就是你要讓我的員工有一些猶豫期"},{"start":376.198,"end":379.381,"text":"對,這是重點,我現在今天煮剛才你問到重點要四分的時候就是這個重點那委員提的猶豫期我們很多的企業會跟工會談在協商在搬遷之前會談猶豫期要多久猶豫期到了時候員工還有一個選擇那那個選擇如果員工要離開的時候是不是優於法令給予一些補償這個會在雙方協商的時候來議定下來喔好,來那個副主委"},{"start":405.675,"end":412.619,"text":"剛才這樣說的,你有聽到嗎?對,有聽到,因為不願意的話當然非自願離職必須有一些事業的給付,但是那個緩衝期的話我現在就是跟你說,跟他們選定的,是有時候我們真的去跟他們的環境,我們又不適合的時候,跟他說我又同時沒有這個選定的時候,是不是有這個阿祖米啊?也謝謝委員,這個有先見之明,因為有人搬過去還會猶豫"},{"start":433.912,"end":436.215,"text":"所以我們會跟基金會來討論是不是有一個緩衝期讓員工有這樣的一個思考我認為你們要緩衝期的時間我們在這裡跟你建議是最起碼要三個月因為這個三個月以後適應孩子安排好"},{"start":451.394,"end":451.634,"text":"很遺憾你們"}]}},{"id":"152408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734efc4af99ee0e9ab1a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d711898d07e4142ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:35:03 - 09:45:47","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":644,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:45:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:35:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":144,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時35分）謝謝主席，請田次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早安。次長，我想要請問你知道期刊雜誌Financial Times在3月27號有關於捷克與臺灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的報導嗎？你有掌握嗎？"],["田次長中光：捷克的晶片，有瞭解一點。"],["徐委員巧芯：我講的是在Financial Times裡面的內容，不是說我們臺灣跟捷克之間的關係。"],["田次長中光：這一點……"],["徐委員巧芯：有就有，沒有就沒有。"],["田次長中光：我沒有掌握……"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有？"],["田次長中光：不過我看看我們的司長有沒有掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你們的司長有沒有掌握，來，說明一下。"],["黃司長鈞耀：我想這個報導裡面有非常多不是事實。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們等一下就來討論哪裡不是事實，也給你們一個澄清的機會。在這個報導裡面提到我們2023年11月有與捷克簽署烏克蘭重建工作的MOU，實際過程當中，我國與捷克有不少涉及先進晶片產業發展與工業的經費是由我國提供主要預算，請問這件事情是真的嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是真的嘛！所以也不是整篇的內容都是不實的嘛！我有看到你們在一個即時新聞澄清專區裡面有寫到一些內容，因為時間的關係，我們不一一贅述，我們從裡面來討論，外交部在4月24號的時候提到我們在民國111年跟捷克開始協商一項5年的計畫，要在捷克成立先進晶片設計中心，討論也進入到撥款的階段。我想要請問，原先捷克先進晶片設計中心的預算來源為何？又是多少錢？"],["黃司長鈞耀：金額的部分我們並沒有公開，不過基本上我們跟他們之間沒有報導所稱的預算上的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：在報導裡面寫到2023年11月臺灣行政院公布了晶創臺灣方案的計畫，有這件事吧？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這是國科會的業務。"],["徐委員巧芯：國科會的業務嘛！但是就我們跟捷克來說，還是跟外交部有關嘛！很多的談判上面來說的話，國科會出的錢嘛！計畫當中寫到10年內要投資3,000億的臺幣，運用臺灣半導體的優勢，結合人工AI技術的創新，布局未來的科技產業。你剛剛講的沒錯，是國科會的計畫，他們準備在捷克舉辦晶創海外基地，還要成立半導體的研究中心。這個報導也提到本來今年2月就要推動撥款，但是國科會主委表示在捷克大學的項目不是跟捷克合作，也不勉強簽署臺捷科技的合作協議。想請問這件事情外交部怎麼看？有沒有接到捷克方面對於此事的反映？"],["黃司長鈞耀：捷克曾經跟我們表達這個計畫跟委員剛剛所講的計畫兩者是如何區別，那我們也跟……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼區別？"],["黃司長鈞耀：就是這是兩個計畫，你剛剛講的第一個是外交部的計畫，第二個是國科會的計畫。"],["徐委員巧芯：第一個計畫是捷克與臺灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的計畫，是這樣嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，第一個計畫……"],["徐委員巧芯：你把兩個計畫的名稱說清楚。"],["黃司長鈞耀：第一個計畫是先進晶片中心的計畫，這個是外交部的計畫；第二個計畫是國科會以晶片為基礎、以創新為中心，延伸到國外的計畫，這是兩個不同的計畫。"],["徐委員巧芯：外交部的計畫總共預計投入多少的預算跟資源？"],["黃司長鈞耀：剛剛有跟委員報告，就是這個計畫我的印象是現在沒有對外公布實際上的金額。"],["徐委員巧芯：國科會的有嘛！國科會公布的叫做10年內投資3,000億臺幣，是不是我們在投入的經費上有落差？我們看一下下一張投影片，可以看到這是國科會的，它有提到包含29億2,000萬等等的，臺灣晶創方案300億的預算，一年至少要花300億，300億減掉今年編的94.9億，等於是205億，所以有很大的落差，這是國科會的部分。剛剛你講了外交部的部分不能說，不能說我就不問了，但是立法院在國科會主管的報告裡面所提到我們剛剛提的預算跟當時與捷克承諾的部分有很大的落差，我當時問的問題是：捷克有沒有向我方反映包含國科會跟外交部的計畫在預算跟撥款上面跟先前講的不一樣？"],["黃司長鈞耀：並沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：他們不在乎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，是因為這個是媒體的錯誤報導，事實上我們跟捷克一直在洽談如何妥善地執行，因此我們到目前也都還沒有撥款，那原因是……"],["徐委員巧芯：意思是外交部這裡沒有撥任何的款項，我們有計畫，但是沒有撥款給捷克？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我們的約是這幾天才有可能談定，因為我們要求建立一個監督的委員會。"],["徐委員巧芯：這幾天才談定？那跟蕭美琴準副總統到捷克參訪有任何的關連嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：沒有任何關連，他們也沒有談到。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們是在什麼時候開始洽談這個方案的呢？"],["黃司長鈞耀：應該是在去年中開始，但是因為這個案子是我國第一次對外推動半導體的相關合作。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以在半導體的相關合作上，在Financial Times上面就提到，在涉及具體的資金撥付上，臺灣的調子非常地慢，而且臺灣曾經許諾投入不少於3,300萬美金用於臺捷民主夥伴供應鏈韌性計畫，你有聽過這個計畫嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：有，當然，剛剛委員所提到的先進晶片設計中心就是其中一個部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：那兩項重點的撥款項目是1,350萬美元跟600萬美元，而捷克方面至今沒有收到該項目的任何一筆經費，請問外交部知道這件事情嗎？或者這是一個錯誤的報導嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這是錯誤資訊，你剛剛提到有一個600萬的預算，我目前沒有辦法confirm它的金額，不過有這件事，但是我們已經撥款了，可是晶片……"],["徐委員巧芯：已經撥款600萬美元給捷克。"],["黃司長鈞耀：對於第二個案子，我們基本上是已經在執行，但是對於第一個案子，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：1,350萬這個案子？"],["黃司長鈞耀：對於半導體的部分，我們因為過去沒有執行過，因此我們非常審慎，也因為這樣子，我們在跟對方簽約之前，我們必須設立一個監督委員會，這也是為什麼我們還沒撥款的原因。"],["徐委員巧芯：ACDRC本來是臺灣跟捷克要共同舉辦的開幕儀式，請問這件事情還有要繼續辦嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這件事情會繼續辦，但是因為約要先簽，而約我剛剛跟委員報告……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以會在3月中的時候辦嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不會啊！現在已經5月了。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！現在已經5月，那為什麼3月中當時討論要辦卻延遲了呢？"],["黃司長鈞耀：因為我們的約還沒有簽。"],["徐委員巧芯：那預計什麼時候要辦理？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我想應該是這一、兩個禮拜之內。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這一、兩個禮拜。最後我要講一下結論，就是在Financial Times裡面認為撥款的速度太慢，讓捷克方面有一點不滿，最後給大家看一張照片，這是捷克半導體的投資商機說明會，我們看到2月份的時候，崇越科技跟投資捷克的代表、捷克經濟文化駐臺辦事處簽署合作備忘錄（MOU），就這麼剛好，崇越科技的董事長郭智輝，也就是現在的準經濟部長，我不曉得是暗示他當時就被內定為經濟部長，還是接下了經濟部長之後有實質的影響力，讓崇越科技有角色，變成郭智輝的關係，從經濟部跟民間部門有資源上面的互動？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這個研討會是捷克代表處舉辦的，並不是我方舉辦的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！但是我要問你的是，裡面有準經濟部長這件事情，你們的看法跟態度是什麼？"],["黃司長鈞耀：捷克代表處邀請新東向協會舉辦的，細節我們並不清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：未來臺灣在半導體的投資方面，因為臺灣跟捷克很多事情的進行還是會透過外交部嘛，請問未來我們的經濟部長先前所待的崇越科技，在裡面會不會有角色？你們知不知情？"],["黃司長鈞耀：民間企業自主的行為，外交部並不會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：代表民間企業自主的行為，但是它過去的董事長已經要成為我們的經濟部長，這個有沒有利益迴避的問題？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這恐怕要問經濟部。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，恐怕要問經濟部，那你們會不會問經濟部？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我們是平行機構，涉外事務如果需要跨部會的協調，我們一定會處理，但是有關委員剛剛問的案子，我們實在是沒有辦法去問經濟部，因為這個應該是委員的權責。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.181593750000001,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.177218750000002,"end":9.953468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.13909375,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.832843750000002,"end":26.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.840968750000002,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.63346875,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.35909375,"end":33.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.68346875,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.315343750000004,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.38284375,"end":46.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.45034375,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.02784375,"end":49.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.78659375,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.330343750000004,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.88221875000001,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.58721875,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.06534375000001,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":146.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.77596875,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.52971875,"end":157.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.04846875,"end":159.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.39846875,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.41534375,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.42221875,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.32534375,"end":230.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.44659375,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.12159375000002,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.20596875,"end":236.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.33159375000002,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.36909375000002,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.25409375,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.50721875000002,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.17346875,"end":263.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.95784375000002,"end":252.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.79596875000004,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.72409375,"end":267.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.68534375,"end":273.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.16971875,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.40346875,"end":289.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.60159375,"end":343.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.70721875000004,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.77034375,"end":346.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.30596875000003,"end":361.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.64971875000003,"end":370.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.40409375,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.63971875000004,"end":377.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.76096875,"end":383.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.97534375000004,"end":385.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.30409375000005,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.81409375000004,"end":396.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.50909375000003,"end":399.6647187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Times在3月27號有關於捷克與台灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的報導嗎?你有掌握嗎?"},{"start":29.813,"end":34.918,"text":"這一點我沒有掌握,不過我看看我們的司長有沒有掌握,好不好?"},{"start":52.16,"end":59.69,"text":"我想這個報導裡面有非常多不是事實好我們等一下就來討論哪裡不是事實也給你們一個誠心的機會"},{"start":60.984,"end":84.658,"text":"那在這個報導裏面提到我們2023年11月由與捷克簽署烏克蘭重建工作的MOU實際過程當中我國與捷克有不少涉及先進晶片產業發展與工業的經費是由我國提供主要預算請問這件事情是真的嗎?"},{"start":85.672,"end":90.56,"text":"是的是真的嘛所以也不是說整篇的內容都是不實的嘛"},{"start":91.226,"end":120.421,"text":"那我有看到你們在一個即時新聞澄清官區裡面有寫到一些內容那因為時間的關係我們不一一贅述我們從裡面來討論那外交部在4月24號的時候說到我們在民國111年跟捷克開始協商一項5年的計劃要在捷克成立先進晶片設計中心討論也進入到"},{"start":121.161,"end":124.464,"text":"這個金額部分我們並沒有公開不過基本上我們跟他們之間沒有報導所稱的預算上的問題"},{"start":146.837,"end":157.272,"text":"那在報道裏面寫到2023年11月台灣行政院公佈了金創台灣法案的計劃有這件事吧?"},{"start":158.189,"end":185.672,"text":"這是國科會的業務國科會的業務嘛但是我們跟捷克來說還是跟外交部有關嘛很多的談判上面來說的話國科會出的錢嘛那上面呢裡面計劃章中寫到10年內要投資3000億的台幣運用台灣半導體的優勢結合人工AI技術的創新布局未來的產業科技喔"},{"start":187.832,"end":201.857,"text":"國科會的計畫,他們準備在捷克舉辦精創海外基地還要成立半導體的研究中心這個報導也提到說本來今年2月就要推動撥款"},{"start":203.197,"end":221.099,"text":"但是國科會主委表示．在捷克大學的項目不是跟捷克合作．也不勉強簽署臺捷科技的合作協議．想請問這件事情外交部怎麼看．有沒有接到捷克方面對於此事的反應．"},{"start":222.386,"end":244.527,"text":"捷克曾經跟我們表達說這個計畫跟委員剛剛所講的計畫兩者是如何區別那我們也跟 什麼區別我們就是說這是兩個計畫您剛剛講的第一個是外交部的計畫第二個是國客會的計畫第一個計畫是捷克與台灣晶片產業項目衝突解析的計畫是這樣嗎"},{"start":246.534,"end":267.237,"text":"你把兩個計畫的名稱說清楚第一個計畫是先進晶片中心的計畫這個是外交部的計畫第二個計畫是國科會以國內的這個以晶片為基礎的創新為中心延伸到國外的計畫這是兩個不同的計畫那外交部的計畫總共預計投入多少的預算跟資源"},{"start":268.157,"end":288.752,"text":"剛剛有跟委員報告就是說這個計劃我的印象是現在沒有對外公布實際上的金額那國科會的有嘛那國科會公布的叫做10年內投資3000億台幣那是不是我們在投入的經費上面跟我們的這個有落差我們看一下下一張同影片好不好來"},{"start":290.646,"end":318.177,"text":"可以看到,國科會,這是國科會的他有提到的是,包含是29億2000萬等等的台灣金創方案,300億的預算,一年至少要花300億300億減掉我們今年編的是94.9億,等於是205億所以有很大的落差,這是國科會的部分那剛剛您講了外交部的部分,不能說我就不問了"},{"start":319.838,"end":342.823,"text":"但是立法院在國科會主管的報告裡面所提到的我們剛剛的預算跟當時跟捷克承諾的部分有很大的落差我當時問的問題是捷克有沒有向我方反映包含國科會跟外交部的計劃在預算跟撥款上面跟先前講的不一樣"},{"start":343.763,"end":345.225,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":360.347,"end":360.908,"text":"我們要求建立一個監督的委員會"},{"start":378.148,"end":396.277,"text":"這幾天才談定那跟蕭美琴選副總統到捷克參訪有任何的關聯嗎?沒有任何關聯他們也沒有談到那你們是在什麼時候開始洽談這個方案的呢?應該是在去年中開始但是因為這個案子是我國第一次對外推動半導體的相關的合作"},{"start":396.937,"end":419.783,"text":"所以在這個半導體的相關合作上面在Financial Times上面就說在涉及具體的資金撥付上台灣的調子非常的慢而且台灣曾經許諾投入不少於3300萬美金用於台捷民主夥伴供應鏈韌性計劃你有聽過這個計劃嗎?"},{"start":424.594,"end":442.045,"text":"有當然剛剛委員所提到的先進晶片設計中心就是其中一個部分那兩項重點的撥款項目是1350萬美元跟600萬美元而捷克方面至今沒有收到該項目的任何一筆經費"},{"start":443.466,"end":458.623,"text":"請問外交部知道這件事情嗎?或者這是一個錯誤的報導嗎?這是錯誤資訊,您剛提到有一個600萬的預算我沒有辦法確認它的金額目前不過有這件事,但是我們已經撥款了你已經撥款600萬的美元給捷克"},{"start":461.886,"end":463.846,"text":"那請問ACDRC本來是臺灣跟捷克要共同舉辦的開幕儀式"},{"start":491.832,"end":493.815,"text":"請問這件事情還有要繼續辦嗎?這件事情還會繼續辦但是因為我們約要先簽所以會在3月中的時候辦嗎?"},{"start":503.254,"end":506.516,"text":"那最後我要講一下結論就是在這個financial times裡面認為說撥款的速度太慢讓捷克方面有一點不滿"},{"start":529.013,"end":546.74,"text":"最後給大家看一張照片這是捷克半導體的投資商機說明會我們看到二月份的時候崇越科技跟投資捷克的代表捷克經濟駐文化辦事處簽署合作備忘錄MOU就這麼剛好"},{"start":548.26,"end":573.589,"text":"崇越科技的董事長郭志輝也就是現在的準經濟部長我不曉得是暗示了他當時就被內定為經濟部長還是接下了經濟部長之後有實質的影響力讓崇越科技有角色變成郭志輝的關係從經濟部跟民間部門有資源上面的互動"},{"start":576.643,"end":590.152,"text":"這個研討會是捷克代表處舉辦的,並不是我方舉辦的對啊,不是啊,但是我要問你的是,說我們裡面有這個準經濟部長這件事情,你們的看法跟態度是什麼嗎?捷克代表處邀請新東向協會舉辦的,那細節我們並不清楚"},{"start":592.534,"end":608.821,"text":"未來在台灣跟半導體的投資方面因為台灣跟捷克還是會透過外交部嘛很多事情的進行那請問未來我們的經濟部長先前所待的重樂科技在裡面會不會有角色你們知不知情"},{"start":610.332,"end":613.954,"text":"民間企業自主的行為外交部並不會介入這恐怕要問經濟部"},{"start":628.129,"end":628.149,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152407","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734f9250e5dfc87abacab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d1ee19b822c4e652d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:31:19 - 09:42:03","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":644,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:42:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:31:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時31分）各位委員、主席。請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我知道這是我們相處的最後一個禮拜，但我們還是要工作到最後一天。"],["許部長銘春：對，我一定會盡忠職守到最後一刻，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然，這禮拜的重頭戲就是審工會法、勞基法等相關草案，為什麼大家這麼在意？因為近期內實在有太多悲劇發生了！近四年內，就有22位基層員警自戕，去年明揚大火發生，大家看電視看得非常痛心，有4位消防人員不幸喪生，他們不僅都非常年輕，更是家庭的支柱，所以我們更必須要為他們爭取權益。去年第10屆末期，雖然有提出公務人員可以合法組織協會的提案，但實在很沒誠意，因為當時沒有人有時間可以好好審這樣的法案，之後就不了了之，所以又延到第11屆。部長從2017年就開始說支持組工會，而勞動部也提了四個建議，但至今沒有一個實現，從第一個、第二個、第三個到第四個！為什麼我們今天會這麼重視？因為第二個跟您高度相關，你身為部長，又是勞工的靠山，又是一位律師，我想這些都不需要本席提醒。","所謂勞工三權就是團結權、集體協商權，還有爭議權，在此前提下，我們來看看當初提出來的草案為什麼沒有人買單，也沒有人感恩，甚至沒有人想討論？因為這邊寫得很清楚，當影響消防或影響警政時就不許協商，但這是他們的工作內容，所以就是會影響啊！請問提出這個草案有什麼幫助？","再來，假使協商權破裂，就必須要走到爭議這一步，可是你給他沒有力道的協商權，他其實也不能幹什麼！最後，你們在書面報告有寫，已經從800人才可以組成協會下降為400人，可是相較之下，一般組工會只要30個人就可以成立，人數可說天差地遠！說實在警消人員每天在基層的工作就讓他們非常忙碌了，還要他們去找400個人一起來成立協會？這樣是不是苛刻？部長，您身為勞工的靠山，又是律師，又是這方面的專業，我很想聽聽您有什麼看法？這四個提案目前看起來就第二個比較可行。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，對於警消人員的團結權應該給予保障，勞動部包括我個人在內，我自始至終都支持。至於到底要用什麼路徑去達到保障他們結社權跟協商權的目的？這部分就必須做一番討論。剛剛委員希望用工會法來保障，也呼應他們的倡議與真正的訴求，但以警消人員來講，他們另外一個身分就是公務人員，他們的工作是保障社會大眾生活及穩定社會秩序，是具有高度公共利益的工作。因此，給他們更好的勞動權益是應該的，只是在那個身分上，他是不是公務人員？是不是要把他跟一般公務人員切開……"],["陳委員菁徽：組織協會跟組織工會也可以不衝突啊！"],["許部長銘春：對，所以我們可以在公務人員協會法裡討論，我剛剛講過，這涉及跨部會、跨院事務，我們看看如何在公務人員協會法中，以這個路徑來達到保障他們協商權跟結社權的目的……"],["陳委員菁徽：其實兩者並不衝突！兩者並不衝突！您可以從勞動部這邊保障他們，銓敘部也可以從銓敘部那邊給他們一定的保障。"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是，這個法因為屆期不連續退回來了，但我們後續會再跟銓敘部，包括內政部、人總，大家儘速來協商，譬如設立的申請門檻及可以協商的事項如何再放寬……"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得你講的非常好！他們是公務人員，但不能無限的情緒勒索，畢竟他們從事的勤務很容易危及生命！"],["許部長銘春：不會情緒勒索！其實其他國家的法制我們也可以參考，像我們隔壁的日本跟新加坡，他們的警消人員並沒有組工會，但他們用另外的組織來保障那些，以臺灣來講，就像委員所說工會法倡議已經這麼久了，如果有其他路徑可以儘快達到他們所訴求的目的，那我覺得大家可以朝這個方向來努力啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：2017年部長提出四個方案，但去年您還是給了一個軟釘子，您說其實修公務人員協會法是最快的。但這次的草案，當然書面報告也不歸您管，所以你應該也沒有辦法；也可能是個人立場的關係，你不方便說出公務人員協會法應該要怎麼修訂比較好？但這在您的一念之間，所以我們還是希望禮拜三的時候可以繼續討論，我們還是很希望可以保障警消的勞動三權，不知道您認不認同？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，勞動三權就是結社、協商跟爭議，爭議權就是罷工，是達到他們訴求的手段，可是警消人員罷工這件事，可能社會大眾會有疑慮……"],["陳委員菁徽：有一些國家會設定一些條件，比如說一定的執勤人數、一定的比例等等，你覺得這方面是可以討論的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得要在兼顧公共利益的情況下，看大家怎麼達成共識。像日本、新加坡警消也不可以組工會，我想他們應該也有一些考量，比如說罷工權可能會影響到社會大眾安全……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，部長，禮拜三、禮拜四可以再繼續討論。"],["許部長銘春：就是要審慎，但對於他們的協商權跟結社權，我們認為應該朝更寬的方向來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：讓可以協商的內容更寬嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：結社的條件可以更寬鬆？部長，我們看一下。5月7日包括勞動部在內，國科會、教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等等對外發布，我們在3月正式加入全球隱私執法合作協議（Global CAPE），未來會跟美國、日本、加拿大、英國、韓國、菲律賓、新加坡、墨西哥、杜拜、百慕達等有司法管轄權的地方，一起面對資料跨境傳輸需求急速增加，個資侵害事故的發生，常常牽涉到境外等等的挑戰。官方說法是，當我們加入Global CAPE，我們會針對隱私、個資保護、跨境執法、資料分享、專業交流等等互助合作，進一步強化民眾資訊的隱私權保障。我想請問一下，你們有發布新聞稿，還放到網頁上，但我查了所有的立法院公報後發現，似乎還沒有送到立法院來。像這樣子的隱私執法機關，請問勞動部會多出哪些業務？對我們的勞工有哪些加分的措施？還有在公務預算經費上，又要編列哪些費用？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們後續會配合國發會處理。至於比較詳細的部分，是不是請業務單位主管來說明？"],["陳委員菁徽：你會知道為什麼第一個發布的新聞稿是國發會──4月30號，再來是勞動部──5月7號，上週末則是內政部突然也大費周章地發了很多新聞稿──5月11號，甚至讓公務員加班，因為是禮拜六才發出來的；所以你們這個順序是有什麼原因嗎？"],["傅司長慧芝：報告委員，是這樣子，是國發會統整各部會的具體措施，先徵詢我們有沒有加入的意願，我們跟國發會表達勞動部有加入這個CAPE的意願，它綜整了以後，有關於協議的這件事情是國發會在處理，加入以後，它就發文給各部會，希望各部會站在自己部會的業務上面向民眾宣導我們有加入了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，既然這是一個協議，所以我們並沒有很強制規定這16個政府單位或是這些國家，假使有任何一個國家並沒有配合或是違反當初的協議，最後應該要怎麼處理，所以這個什麼時候才會送到立法院來備查？因為大家對於這個Global CAPE的內容現在是搜不到，一無所知，你講得出來嗎？"],["傅司長慧芝：委員的這個疑問，我們後續會跟國發會這邊瞭解……"],["陳委員菁徽：那你講得出勞動部的業務嗎？勞動部會多出哪些業務？"],["傅司長慧芝：勞動部就是個人資料保護的問題，我們會配合國發會對於隱私資料、跨境配合打擊犯罪的這個部分來處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個跟警政系統的串聯會有什麼差別嗎？"],["傅司長慧芝：這邊是以個人資料保護、隱私的部分為主。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我希望可以儘快看到送到立法院來，謝謝。"],["傅司長慧芝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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這是部長從2017年就開始說的,您說支持組工會有這個四個建議,勞動部有四個建議,你看至今我們沒有一個有實現,第一個、第二個、第三個、第四個,那當然為什麼我們今天會這麼重視,因為第二個跟您是高度相關。"},{"start":98.055,"end":124.214,"text":"議員,你會不會覺得說身為一個部長又是勞工的靠山又是一位律師這些也不用本席跟您說了勞工三權就是團結權、集體、協商權還有爭議權所以我們看當初提出來的草案為什麼沒有人買單也沒有人感恩也沒有人想要來討論因為這邊寫得很清楚嘛當你有影響"},{"start":125.575,"end":131.356,"text":"允許協商協商權假使破裂就必須要走到爭議這一步可是呢你給他沒有力道的協商權他其實也不能幹嘛"},{"start":149.66,"end":164.437,"text":"最後當然你們的書面報告有寫到說已經把800人可以組成工協會下降為400人可是比起組工會只要30個人就可以成立這樣子的人數是天差地遠"},{"start":165.718,"end":185.971,"text":"除此之外警消人員他們每天忙在基層的工作就非常的忙碌了還要他們去找400個人一起來成立協會這樣是不是會太可可我也很想要聽聽部長您身為勞工的靠山又是律師又是這方面的專業有什麼看法這四個提案看起來目前就第二個比較可行啊"},{"start":187.134,"end":201.966,"text":"包括委員我想對於我們警消人員的這個團結權他應該給予保障我想勞動部包括我個人我自始至終我都支持啦都支持那當然到底要用什麼路徑"},{"start":203.342,"end":204.663,"text":"公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員"},{"start":227.247,"end":227.267,"text":"),委員"},{"start":243.936,"end":255.127,"text":"公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員"},{"start":266.798,"end":267.759,"text":"兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":282.54,"end":287.566,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":302.642,"end":308.53,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":319.085,"end":346.693,"text":"人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案〉案,但他們用怎麼樣一個另外一個那個組織來保障那些我覺得以臺灣來講我們其實最快啦我是覺得最快因為我們希望一個訴求就像委員講的公會法已經倡議這麼久了那如果其他路徑可以盡快達到他們的這個訴求的目的我覺得大家可以找這個方向來努力2017年你提出了四個方案但是去年你還是給了一個軟釘子啦"},{"start":347.173,"end":375.205,"text":"你最後是說其實還是修公務員的協會法是最快但是這次的草案當然這個書面報告也不是歸您管啦所以你應該也沒有辦法可能個人的立場你不方便說出那你公務人員協會法應該要怎麼修訂比較好可是我們還是希望說這個是您的一念之間啦所以我們可以禮拜三的時候繼續討論因為我們還是很希望可以保障錦霄的這個勞動三權"},{"start":376.886,"end":400.493,"text":"人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期社會福利及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期社會福利及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第13會期社會福利及第16會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第19會期社會福利及第19會期社會福利及第20會期社會福利及第20會期社會福利及第21會期社會福"},{"start":406.255,"end":410.745,"text":"​​擬具公共利益的情況下看大家怎麼去有一個"},{"start":413.082,"end":429.577,"text":"公示出來因為爭議權為什麼像日本新加坡他也不不可以組工會可能我想他們也有一些考量比如說爭議這個罷工權可能會影響到社會大眾的一個好沒關係部長我們可以禮拜三禮拜四再繼續討論但是我覺得對於他們的協商跟結社這個部分我們認為應該要朝更寬的方向來做"},{"start":436.843,"end":462.279,"text":"可以協商的內容更寬嘛對結社的條件可以更寬鬆部長我們看一下吼5月7號的時候包括勞動部在內另外國科會教育部法務部內政部外交部等等對外發佈了在3月的時候正式加入一個全球隱私執法合作協議叫做Global CAP未來會跟美國日本加拿大英國韓國菲律賓加新加坡墨西哥杜拜"},{"start":462.779,"end":480.356,"text":"拜木達等由司法管轄權的地方一起面對資料跨境傳輸需求急速增加各自侵害事故的發生常常牽涉到境外等等的挑戰所以官方說法是說當我們加入Global Camp我們會針對隱私還有各自保護跨境執法"},{"start":483.098,"end":487.841,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈公務預算〉案〈公務預算〉案〈公務預算〉"},{"start":511.493,"end":513.875,"text":"), 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案"},{"start":531.65,"end":560.456,"text":"再來是勞動部5月7號而上週末是內政部突然也大費周章的發了很多新聞稿5月11讓公務員是加班喔因為是禮拜六才發出來的所以你們這個順序是有什麼原因嗎報告委員是這樣子是國發會統整各部會的具體的措施先徵詢我們有沒有加入的意願那我們跟國發會表達勞動部有加入這個CAP的意願"},{"start":561.349,"end":563.511,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":581.928,"end":603.397,"text":"公平說好這16個政府或是這些國家假使他有任何一個國家並沒有配合或是違反當初的協議最後應該要怎麼處理所以這個是不是什麼時候才會讓送到立法院來被查因為大家對於這個global cape的內容現在是收不到一無所知欸你講得出來嗎"},{"start":607.718,"end":630.112,"text":"委員的這個疑問我們後續會跟國發會那你講得出勞動部的業務嗎?勞動部會多出哪些業務嗎?勞動部就是個人資料保護的問題我們會配合國發會對於這個隱私跨境隱私資料跨境的配合打擊犯罪的這個部分所以這個跟警政系統的串聯會有什麼差別嗎?"},{"start":631.924,"end":632.665,"text":"以個人資料保護隱私為主。"}]}},{"id":"152406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17344dc627242ef940f8ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d5fafcff08c5e5b495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:21:10 - 09:31:15","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":605,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:31:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:21:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時21分）有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好。今天是我跟您的最後一次詢答，我很珍惜這個機會，不過請部長見諒，我今天還是要盡我的監督責任，不能打折扣。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們過去常常看到許多重工業化或化學工業的工廠發生爆炸大火，因為消防救火這一類的風險比其他的火災還要高，所以造成很多消防弟兄因為這類的救火而死傷嚴重，因此，比起事後的救災，事前的災害防範是不是更為重要？部長您同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是事前的災害防範。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：國營事業諸如台電跟中油也常常發生公安事件，從這個圖上可知，前年台電中部火力發電廠發生了煤倉火災，還有中油大林煉油廠發生爆炸大火，如果能夠做好事前的防範，是不是可以把事故範圍縮小？部長是不是也同意國營事業應該要帶頭做好事前的風險管控，國營事業要帶頭來做，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我有一些資料要跟部長分享，對於勞動部職安署在接獲檢舉之後，向台電索取攸關公安事件風險管控的防爆電器設備採購資料，進行相關的調查，我是非常的肯定，就是有去做了索取這個動作，但是部長您認為職安署同仁在進行調查的時候有盡心嗎？您有信心嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們職安署的同仁都非常的認真、盡責，所以我相信他們一定會就相關案子努力把它釐清。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，對於職安署負責防爆電器設備的同仁是否有依法進行調查，我這裡要打一個問號，接著我會說明給部長聽，最後再請部長回答。","請看下一張，部長，我接下來秀的這個資料，都是廠商進行的防爆電器設備型式檢定，在合格後，廠商要向職安署所謂的機械設備器具安全資訊網登錄，才能夠取得TS安全標章的認證徽章，這一張圖片是申芳公司的同一個產品，就是防爆密封接頭，一樣是由ISTI核發的型式檢定合格證明書，這沒有問題，這是最新的，從2023年開始，效期是到2027年，請部長看一下，它的型式就有四個，EYS、EYM、EYD、EYDM等四個型式，請部長稍微記一下，目前它是有這四個型式，部長，簡報上這兩張就是申芳連同前面ISTI檢定合格證明所傳到職安署網站上的產品型錄，我們看到也是一致的，就是EYS、EYM、EYD、EYDM，而且上面有一個比較弱色的紅色框框，裡面有寫到材質，材質是球墨鑄鐵，請部長稍微記得一下我的這個資訊。","好，下一張，我們時間往前推，這一份也是一樣由ISTI發給申芳公司的防爆密封接頭的型式檢定合格證明書，有效期限是2017年到2020年，裡面有三個型式EYS、EYM、EYD。","部長，現在就是這個狀況，也就是說，2023年7月10號ISTI檢定合格書上面才說申芳公司的產品型號多了EYDM，我想署長會很清楚，就是之前核准了三個型態，只有到2023年才多了一個EYDM，2020年之前並沒有，部長，到目前為止，我的資訊是這樣，請問OK嗎？"],["許部長銘春：OK。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們再繼續看簡報上的資訊，這兩張是申芳連同前次ISTI檢定合格證明書傳到職安署這個網站上的產品型錄，你可以看到上面有個材質是寫可鍛鑄鐵，部長，也請你記得，這個時候是寫可鍛鑄鐵，這個期限是2017年到2020年，重點來了，明明看到ISTI在2017年所核准的型式檢定只有三種EYS、EYM、EYD，但另外一邊的型錄卻多了一個EYDM型號。請問部長，為何會發生這種廠商登錄在職安署的網站上，它的檢定合格證明書跟型錄會有不一樣的狀況，過去職安署都不用去核對上傳的資料嗎？還是申芳上傳資料有問題？還是ISTI檢驗有問題？職安署是否要進行一個調查？部長，這不是小事，這個是偽造文書！"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個看起來就是它上傳的多了一個當時沒有……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，而且也多了一個球墨鑄鐵。"],["許部長銘春：沒有審查、審定的項目……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個最嚴重的是偽造文書。"],["許部長銘春：我待會是不是可以請署長說明一下？因為這個涉及到個案，他們應該有做瞭解。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們回到職安署跟台電大林電廠調取的資料，這個動作非常好，事實上，這是職安署拿到的資料，在2019年8月4號，大林電廠採購案裡面，我們可以看到ISTI在2017年核發的型式檢驗合格證明書，這個是合格證明書，我們都調出來看了。","接下來畫面上這兩張一樣是在大林電廠提供給職安署的資料，2019年的採購案，當時申芳公司拿到ISTI核發的型式檢定合格證明書，根本就沒有球墨鑄鐵，也沒有EYDM的型號，因為那是在2023年之後，我剛剛已經秀資料給部長看了，ISTI核發的證書跟登錄型號才有的內容。","好，請問為什麼會穿越時空出現在大林電廠提供給職安署的2019年的採購資料裡面？這當中一定有人作假，是申芳？是ISTI？是台電？還是承包商？但是職安署負責的同仁在跟台電拿到這份資料以後並沒有看出來，這太離譜了吧！部長，所以我們會懷疑這是沒有核對還是護航？還是有人造假？部長或是署長可以做一個說明嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我請署長說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員回報，第一個，國營企業的安全衛生，我們是用高標準來做檢查，所以我們勞動部有跟各部會成立一個跨部會的減災平臺，針對各種重大案件，我們會做檢討，剛才那個案子是火災爆炸，但是沒有人員傷亡，所以不是職災案件；第二個，有關這個案子，我之前曾親自到委員辦公室報告，這個案子我們初查的結果，是申芳在申報這個系統的時候，多增加一個沒有經過TS認證的型式，我發現這涉及違反我們TS的制度，所以我們是移送給地檢署來偵辦。至於這個案子，台電後來沒有給這個公司來採用，所以它沒有進入到我們市場，依照我們職安法第七條規定，因為還沒有涉及到使用端，所以我們是先移送地檢署偵辦，就偽造文書的部分，請檢察官再做一個瞭解……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，我強調的是，這個都是我們從網站查出來的資料……"],["鄒署長子廉：所以我們有一直努力在進行，而且委員的資料都是我們職安署跟您提供、跟您報告的，我們會堅決主張，我們同仁是依照法律來辦事情，如果我們同仁有任何的疑慮，我們會處理……"],["陳委員昭姿：上傳的資料要核對啊！這是攸關風險的管控。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。","部長，剛剛大家都提到警消組工會，這已經吵了10年，在這裡讓大家簡單回顧一下，從第8屆就有人開始提案，我在此再次感謝王育敏召委對警消同仁的關心，在這個禮拜能夠安排這個議程出來。","下一張，因為去年9月明揚大火造成4名消防兄弟殉職，所以他們在凱道夜宿爭取組工會，結果換來的不是工會，而是所謂的特種協會，到現在為止，我聽了部長的報告，好像也只願意修改公務人員協會法，但是這兩個的立場差很大，協會和工會的保障差很大，因為他們沒有團結權，也沒有團體的協約權，更沒有爭議權，我們是不是想辦法讓基層警消跟政府有平等談話的權利？","我們再來看看，其實他們並不是洪水猛獸，上次為什麼一直退回來，不管執政黨、在野黨提的，都退回程序委員會，代表連執政黨都沒有辦法接受、都不買單！我們直接看最後的風險資料──消防員死亡的統計，這些因公殉職、因公死亡的，每一條都是人命，背後都是一個破碎的家庭！請部長能夠瞭解警消工作的風險，讓基層警消能夠有與政府公平談判的權利。請部長放心，組工會的目的不是罷工，我覺得不要用這個理由來阻擋。最後我要向部長報告，韓國做到了！他們爭取了十五年，從2006年到2021年，他們終於組成了工會，所以我們不要直聘輸韓國，連這件事也都輸給韓國！好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個案子不只涉及勞動部，也涉及跨部、跨院。所以就這問題來說，我們認同他們有團結權，包括結社、協商，這些我們都應該要保障。只是因為他們身分的問題，以致無法讓勞動部一個部會就可以做決定，必須經過跨院的協商……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們努力，因為他們也努力了很多年！時間已經到了，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：接下來我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.87409375,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.35846875,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.544093750000002,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":63.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.606593750000002,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.31471875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.682218750000004,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.27284375,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.40346875,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.44971875,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.58221875,"end":67.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.91909375,"end":81.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.35659375,"end":77.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.79034375,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.27471875,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.55096875000001,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.96846875,"end":104.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.66034375000001,"end":103.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.74034375000001,"end":113.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.81096875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.48159375,"end":113.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.49846875,"end":116.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.40534375,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.96534375,"end":123.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.64409375000001,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.81284375000001,"end":126.99846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.78221875,"end":163.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.63096875000002,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.52846875,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":195.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.15284375000002,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":197.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.09284375000001,"end":225.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.98721875,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.30346875,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.46784375000001,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.33096875,"end":240.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.17034375000003,"end":258.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.24159375000002,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.13909375000003,"end":253.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.43784375,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.99409375,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.41096875,"end":270.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":278.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.97159375,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.97471875,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.95284375,"end":286.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.09159375,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.45409375,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.26221875000005,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.27471875000003,"end":307.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.66221875,"end":308.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.23596875000004,"end":308.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.65784375000004,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.31596875,"end":311.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.50971875000005,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.87659375000004,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.18034375,"end":313.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.03659375,"end":3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因為消防救火的這一類的風險比其他的火災還要高。所以也造成很多消防弟兄在因為這類的救火死傷嚴重。那比起事後就在事前的災害的防範是不是部長覺得是更重要的?您同意嗎?就是事前的災害防範。"},{"start":48.652,"end":56.477,"text":"國營事業諸如臺電跟中油也常常發生公安事件。前年不管是在臺電這個圖上有,臺電的中部火力發電廠發生煤倉火災或是說中油大林煉油廠發生爆炸大火。"},{"start":63.661,"end":78.116,"text":"除此之外,如果能夠說好事前的防範,是不是可以把事故範圍縮小?那部長是不是也同意說國營事業應該要帶頭,帶頭把做好事前的風險管控,這個國營事業要帶頭來做,部長同意嗎?那部長,我有一些資料跟部長分享,我對於這個勞動部職安署在接獲檢舉之後,"},{"start":88.585,"end":112.35,"text":"公安事件風險管控的防暴電器設備採購資料進行調查,我是非常肯定,就是有去索取這個動作。但是部長您認為這個子安署的同仁在進行調查的時候有盡興嗎?您有信心嗎?我們其實子安署的同仁都非常的認真盡責,所以我相信他們一定會就相對"},{"start":113.51,"end":117.933,"text":"對於職安署的負責防爆電器設備頭人是否有依法進行調查我這裡要打一個問號那我說明給部長聽最後再請部長來回答請看下一張部長我接下來秀這個資料都是廠商去進行這個防爆電器設備的這個形式檢定合格後"},{"start":133.882,"end":134.622,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案件。"},{"start":164.242,"end":185.763,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。netesa, 請部長稍微記一下目前它是有這個四個形式那部長檢報上這兩張就是身方連同前面RSTI它檢定合格的證明傳到這個治安署的這個網站上的產品型錄我們也看到是看到是一致的EYS EYM EYD跟EYDM而且上面有一個比較"},{"start":187.136,"end":194.362,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":211.696,"end":238.771,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件中是三個形態,EYS、EYM、EYD,部長就是現在是這個狀況,也就是說2023年7月10號,ISTI檢定合格書上面只有說深方公司的產品型號才多了EYDM,我想署長會很清楚,就之前它是合組了三個形態,那只有到2020才多了一個EYDM,那2020之前並沒有,部長到目前為止我的資訊是這樣子,OK嗎?"},{"start":242.413,"end":257.241,"text":"但是部長來我們再繼續看這個簡報上的號這個這兩張是身方聯同前次愛車檢定合格證明傳到職安署的這個網站上的產品進入你可以看到上面號上面有個材質號是寫可斷鑄鐵部長也請你記得這個時候是可斷鑄鐵是2017到2022年"},{"start":263.064,"end":288.607,"text":"那我們也可以看到這重點來了明明看到RSTR在2017年它所核准的這個刑事檢定只有三種EYS、EYM、EYD但這邊的刑路卻多了一個EYDM型號請問部長為何會發生這種廠商登錄在這個職安署的網站上那個檢定合格證明書跟刑路會有不一樣的狀況過去職安署都不用去核對"},{"start":289.528,"end":292.249,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":307.637,"end":323.404,"text":"), ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":323.464,"end":324.605,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":345.939,"end":368.861,"text":"那下一張畫面上這兩張一樣是在大陵電廠提供給職安組的資料當中2019年的採購案當時深方公司拿到的ISTI核發的形式檢定核證明根本沒有球末注鐵也沒有EUIDM的型號因為那是在2023年之後我剛剛已經秀資料給部長看了"},{"start":369.201,"end":369.221,"text":"議員陳菁"},{"start":392.779,"end":392.939,"text":"公務員陳菁"},{"start":406.356,"end":426.968,"text":"各位回報,第一個國營企業的安全衛生我們用高標準來做檢查所以我們勞動朋友跟各部會成立一個跨部會的檢測平台針對各種重大案件我們會做檢疫檢討那剛才那個案子是火災爆炸但是沒有人員傷亡所以不是直災案件第二個有關這個案子我之前也跟委員親自到委員辦公室報告這個案子我們初查結果看是身方"},{"start":427.568,"end":427.588,"text":"), 國民黨黨長"},{"start":452.943,"end":454.964,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":474.55,"end":478.212,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":493.939,"end":510.322,"text":"他們這個在凱道夜宿爭取主工會結果換來不是工會而是所謂的這個特種協會那到現在為止聽部長的報告也是只願意修改公務員協會但是這兩個的立場差很大喔因為這個協會公共會差保障差很大因為他們沒有這個團結權也沒有這個團體的協會權更沒有爭議權那我們是不是想辦法讓基層警消跟政府有平凡談話的權利那我們再來看看這個就是說他們不是"},{"start":522.725,"end":527.407,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案"},{"start":541.531,"end":558.369,"text":"應公殉職應公死亡每一條都是人命都是背後一個破碎的家庭他們的工作請部長就能夠了解警消工作的風險他們這個讓基層的元宵能夠有跟政府公平談判的權利那請部長放心主公關的目的不是罷工啦"},{"start":558.829,"end":587.476,"text":" »: 我覺得就是不要用這個理由來阻擋嘛。那最後就是我報告部長,韓國都做到了,他們也證據15年。他們終於在2006年到2020年終於組成了這個工會。那我們不要直訓輸韓國,結果連這件事也都輸給韓國,好嗎?部長。因為這個案子涉及到不是只有勞動部啦,就是涉及到跨部還跨院。所以就這個問題我想我們認同他們的團結權包括結社協商這個我們都應該要保障。"},{"start":588.556,"end":600.01,"text":" »: 但是只是說應要的身份問題我沒有辦法說勞動部這邊一個部會就會做決定所以這個是經過跨院的協商﹖ 因為他們也努力了很多年了謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17348a4a01065361b4dc076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d0cd0b6bef2137dcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:31:48 - 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二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":423,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:38:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:31:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時31分）謝謝主席，有請原民會。"],["主席：請原民會的鍾副主委，是嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：副主委好。請問一下，原住民族的傳播大樓可望在2025年啟動，要搬到桃園嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個就變成永久的會址，不過到現在就有很多的爭議，關於員工的各項權益部分一直有爭議，包含基本居住、交通，還有子女照顧等等的問題。根據勞基法第十條之一的規定，雇主調動勞工工作地點過遠，雇主應給予必要的協助。就像有很多人反映，本來原語會跟原文會都在臺北，但是現在統一搬到桃園，通勤時間成本很高，是否提供交通的補貼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為這個在勞基法有明文的規定，必須保障員工的權益，資方跟勞方在討論這個部分的話，這是一個對話平臺，我們也都願意去面對、共同協助他們，所以原文會也好、原語會也好，都有在討論對於交通的補助，甚至在居住的部分都有一些討論跟對話。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以現在還沒有討論出來？剛才有說居住，目前桃園那個住宅的原住民保障戶占總戶數只有5%，但是以桃園有12個社會住宅來說，是否滿足員工的居住需求？還有公司、原民會裡面的成員不一定全部是原住民，這樣子的話算在5%以外，抽籤的競爭壓力很大，應該如何協助和補助？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：麥委員，是不是我請基金會來說明一下目前的進度？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：委員你好。就原語會來說，第一個，我們已經實際請同仁到桃園，或者是跟桃園原民局一起討論有關怎麼興建社會住宅的部分，這已經有2次會議，這是第一件事情；第二件事情，我們內部已經有做充分的討論，能夠補助他們租金1年，或者是交通津貼上我們都有做一些金額上的調整，特別有請同仁自己親自計算從臺北的工作地點到新辦公室所要花費的時間跟費用，我們有做這樣的實際指導，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝。因為這關係到基層員工的權利，所以這個部分非常重要，因為住得好，這樣子大家工作才安心。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：第二項，我想要請教一下，現在教育部鼓勵大專院校要設原住民族學生資源中心來輔導學生的生活還有學業，但是各個學校的中心面臨工作暴增，人員流動率也高、經費不足，而經費也有限，可能今年有、明年沒有了，這樣子要如何去協助？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這個部分的經費我們也有在跟教育部討論，而且人員的部分明年也會增加2位。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，這樣太好了！因為要幫忙退學的，又有就學的要輔導，這樣一個人真的做不來，這樣子的話，資源中心就可以協助。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，就能夠運作正常一些。"],["麥委員玉珍：有關就讀大專院校的原住民學生，休學還有退學的比例都偏高，這個部分你們可以提供協助，而資源中心有增加2個的話，對大家很有幫助啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：還要請教一下，以數據統計來看，原住民族的學生很多在學習跟就業有落差，所以導致我們的學生得到文憑後，他的工作與他的學習不符，嚴重落差造成他們的高等教育無法發揮，這個部分希望我們的產學合作還有我們要學習的部分，是不是可以協助解決新鮮人面臨的問題，還有如何讓我們的畢業生可以建立一個相關學以致用的機制？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，針對大專生，我們都有一些暑期工讀，甚至有一些職場體驗的機會，讓他們也能夠到原民地區包括像文健站，我們每年都有暑期職場體驗的工作，讓他們儘早跟社會有些連結。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是他們學習後要去就業跟他學習畢業後不一樣，我們要去討論的是為什麼學生退學跟要去就學的偏低？因為有很多人反映，他們學了，但是他們要去做的工作跟他學的不一樣，這樣子他就會去不同的領域，所以他的薪水就偏低，這樣導致大家要去學習時會覺得他畢業也沒有用，他沒辦法發揮他的專長，這個部分可能請原民會這邊要多多關心。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，我們也跟教育部青年署還有勞動部有一些這樣的串聯、合作，就學生的部分，譬如說青年職涯輔導或U-start計畫都有在推動。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝麥玉珍委員、謝謝鍾興華副主委。","繼續請我們可愛的王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們原民會請原民會的中副主委是嗎好 謝謝委員好主委好 副主委好請問一下我們原住民族的傳播大樓 渴望就是在2025年我們就啟動我們就是在搬到我們桃園"},{"start":29.794,"end":40.388,"text":"所以這個就是變成永久的會址但是不過呢就是到現在就有很多的爭議就是關於就是我們的員工各項的權益部分一直有爭議"},{"start":44.733,"end":67.094,"text":"包含就是基本居住啊、交通啊還有就是子女照顧等等的問題而我們根據勞基法第十之一條的規定僱主調動勞工工作的地點就是過眼僱主給予必要的協助就像說有很多人的反應本來原"},{"start":69.916,"end":96.028,"text":"言語會跟原文會的話就是都在臺北但是現在統計班到桃園這樣的時間就是通勤的話就成本很高是否提供交通的補貼這個部分是跟委員報告因為這個在勞基法有明定就在勞基法有明文的規定必須對員工的權益保障那知方跟老方在討論這個部分的話這是一個對話平台"},{"start":97.728,"end":109.553,"text":"我們也都願意去面對來共同協助他們所以原文會也好、原語會也好這個部分都有在討論對於交通的補助的部分甚至在居住的部分都有一些討論跟對話"},{"start":111.717,"end":128.11,"text":"所以現在還沒有討論出來還是說還有就是因為剛才有說居住但是居住目前在桃園就是那個租宅租宅原住民保障戶就是總戶數叫5%但是以桃園的是有12個住宿社會租宅來說是否滿足我們的員工的"},{"start":136.256,"end":153.471,"text":"記住的需求,還有我們公司我們原民會裡面的成員不一定是我們全部的是原住民,雖然則他的5%以外這樣子的抽籤競爭力很大,所以應該如何來協助和補助這樣"},{"start":154.592,"end":180.14,"text":"是,麥委員,是不是我們請基金會來說明一下目前的進度。喂,你好。那就原語會來說,第一個就是我們已經從實際跟請同仁到桃園或者是跟桃園原民局一起來討論怎麼去做興建那個有關社會住宅的部分,這已經有兩次的會議,這是第一件事情。第二件事情,我們內部已經有做充分的討論,能夠補助他們到這個租金一年"},{"start":180.66,"end":180.7,"text":"二、邀請"},{"start":199.346,"end":221.181,"text":"好 謝謝因為我們關於就是我們基層員工的權利所以這個部分我們要非常的重要因為有住得好這樣子大家工作才安心對 所以第二項我想要請教一下因為我們現在就是教育部鼓勵大專業校要設原住民主學生資源中心"},{"start":221.921,"end":221.961,"text":"主席"},{"start":244.605,"end":264.558,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們經費也有跟在教育部討論而且人員的部分明年也會增加兩位喔好這樣太好了因為要幫忙要退協要救協要輔導這樣一個人真的做不來是是對好所以這樣子的資源中心的話就有可以協助對我們不需要運作正常一些"},{"start":266.74,"end":283.78,"text":"像說我們是在就讀大專院校的我們的原住民學生就是修學還有退學都比較偏高這個部分是不是說我們可以有什麼的協助這個部分就是有掙扎兩個的話這個是"},{"start":285.603,"end":288.567,"text":"對大家很有幫助還有要請教一下以我們的數據統計來看就是我們原住民族的學生他們有很多學習跟他們的就業"},{"start":302.305,"end":307.167,"text":"有落差所以導致我們的學生就是得到文憑後他的工作和他的學習不符所以嚴重落差造成他們的高等的教育無法就是發揮這個部分就是需要說我們的產學合作還有就是我們要學習的部分"},{"start":324.933,"end":352.313,"text":"是不是可以如何協助新鮮人面臨的問題還有如何讓我們的畢業生就是可以建立一個相關協議自用的機制更為包括針對大家專生我們都有一些暑期工讀甚至有一些職場體驗的這樣的一個機會讓他們也能夠到原民地區包括像文健這樣我們每年都有暑期的職場體驗的工作讓他們盡早跟社會有一些連結"},{"start":353.394,"end":381.241,"text":"是是但是說意思說我們就是學習後他們要去就業的跟他學習的畢業後就是不一樣這樣子的話就導致我們的學生我們要去要去討論的是說我們的學生為什麼就是退學還有就是要去就學的偏低因為有很多的反應他們就是學了但是他們要去做的工作"},{"start":381.761,"end":382.001,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"},{"start":399.799,"end":412.596,"text":"人民會這邊要多多關心跟委員包括我們也跟教育部、青年署還有勞動部都有一些這樣的串聯合作然後就我們的學生的部分比如說青年職涯輔導或幼時大這樣的一個計畫都有在推動好 謝謝 謝謝好 非常謝謝麥瑞珍委員謝謝鍾錫華副主委 謝謝繼續請我們的美會顧主任"}]}},{"id":"152404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734c3253cff5b748df5076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d142e1c090ea04b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:24:11 - 09:31:43","影片長度":"00:07:32","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":452,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:31:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:24:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時24分）謝謝主席，我想請原文會董事長瑪拉歐斯。"],["主席：請瑪拉歐斯董事長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：董事長好。今天的題目本來是要講大樓搬遷的部分，不過我看到這個題目以後，我們就針對原民臺再搜尋一下，看看最近原住民族電視臺有沒有什麼新的新聞等等，結果我就看了這個網站，就是把上面這個關鍵字「原住民族電視臺」打下去以後，你看看跳下來的是什麼？很正常吧！你自己有打過嗎？董事長，你有打過嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該是跟這個一樣，差不多嘛，對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：結果它就跳出來「電視原住民文化事業基金會」，看起來不太像原民臺的名字啊！所以我又往下搜尋，結果我看到了一個最像電視臺的，就是這個「原住民族電視臺16」，所以我就把它按下去了，因為我要看電視臺嘛！結果你看看這個電視臺的網站，你看到沒有？這個影像是2013年的影片，這樣對嗎？這是2013立法院質詢的影片。我們再看下一個，2024年5月竟然是節目表尚未排出，董事長，你們的網站這樣對嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，因為我們過去隸屬於公共電視，所以我們有一些資料還掛在公共電視，其實我們現在已經有新的網站。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我本來要嚇你一下，看起來你沒有被嚇倒。對啦，這個網站是錯誤的啦！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：2013年你們跟公共電視臺還合併的時候的這個網站還在上面嘛！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是你看我剛剛這樣查詢下去，很多人如果沒有像你們這麼熟悉，或是像我們這麼熟悉原民臺的歷史，不知道原來它跟公共電視合併在一起，後來又分開了的話，照我剛剛這樣的邏輯搜尋下去，我是用「原住民族電視臺」當關鍵字下去查，查了以後找到一個最像電視臺的連結點下去，結果點下去以後竟然是出現這個，那你覺得我對原民臺的印象會是什麼？當然不會很好啊！我們現在這麼認真，要對我們的辦公處所，甚至電視臺營運大樓的搬遷有做這麼好的計畫，對不對？今天我們還特別來質詢這個問題，你們的網站都搬家這麼久了，這個部分是不是也應該要處理一下？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們儘快跟……"],["蘇委員巧慧：舊的、不需要的話可以移除，或者隱藏，或者用任何技術方式，這是技術嘛，對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：今天我們就跟公共電視聯繫。"],["蘇委員巧慧：討論一下。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：再增加搜尋上的關鍵字及便利性。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。你看看，因為到現在這上面因為系統的關係還是可以自動跳2024年5月，所以大家一定會覺得這個網站還是有動，怎麼會動成這樣？","我們再回來，事實上，現在的原文會、原民台網站我必須說：做得非常好！我們來看一下，關於你們做得多好，我就讓大家自己去看，這個我就不特別說了。我甚至要更進一步說，我要稱讚原民台，其實大家最近的表現真的都很不錯，去年的金鐘獎也入圍了9項節目，甚至像「樹人大冒險」還直接得獎了，是動畫類第一名嘛，你們就直接得獎了，這麼好的節目真的要感謝大家努力、用心！","可是，因為我今天本來要質詢你們嘛，所以我又想下去，我本來想要截圖放一些「樹人大冒險」的畫面上來，可是董事長你看，「樹人大冒險」每一集都因著作權限制，僅供原視頻道收視欸，對不對？然後你看下一個，也是不錯的節目啊，「Wawa哇」其實也是嘛，也是因為著作權的關係啊！相對於其他的節目或者是客台等等，其實它受到著作權限制的並沒有這麼多節目，董事長，請問這個問題是什麼？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們過去確實在跟委製單位或是內部的製作上，對著作權的態度我認為是比較保守，今天我們會再……"],["蘇委員巧慧：老實說，我也當過製作單位啊，你忘了，對啊！所以基本上還是預算的問題嘛。事實上你付他多少錢，那你得到的版權、你可以在多少的載體上播出，你不能付他70萬、90萬的製作費，在所有的地方通通都可以播，我覺得這樣不合理，你知道製作動畫多麼的昂貴嗎？一集是很貴、很貴的！所以如果是這樣的話，當然他說你付這個錢只能在原視上面播放，他沒有授權你YT，你如果要在YT、要在其他部分的話要另外加錢，坦白講，我覺得這合理啊！所以說歸到最後還是錢的問題、預算的問題吧？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是的，我們在委製的過程中，製作單位也會很堅持他的著作權。"],["蘇委員巧慧：合理啊！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：對，這一塊我覺得我們應該用預算的方式去把它買到，或是用其他合作方式。"],["蘇委員巧慧：以前我在幫公共電視製作的時候，我也很不希望是直接賣斷，這麼便宜就買斷我辛辛苦苦做的作品，我也不希望是這樣。所以說歸到底還是預算的問題，那你到底要爭取到多少預算才能夠足夠這樣？而且我們今天跟這個客委會來比較，坦白講，我們做了一個比較，有關客台和原民台，你看看在載體的部分，其實客台的部分坦白講還是多了一些喔，他們的空間還是比較多了一些，尤其是在podcast，我們今天如果再講podcast的部分，因為親子、族語的節目，尤其是幼兒節目部分，podcast有兩種，一種就是上班族開車當背景音樂；但另外一種是什麼？是還不會看字的小朋友，對他們是最好的！你的親子幼兒節目有沒有辦法轉換成podcast？像我自己也有一個podcast的親子節目啊。所以在這個狀況下，你是不是可以增加費用去談到這個部分？podcast的部分是不是可以更有企圖心一點？尤其是在學齡前兒童的節目，這個部分我認為是原民台可以再多著墨的，董事長同意嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是，非常同意，委員果然是專家，我們對podcast的經營在今年也有很大的成果，下個月我們會將所有的節目──42個節目會全部上podcast；另外，我們也會跟spotify連結播出。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得應該要認真爭取預算，如果不夠的話，主席很厲害，我們可以跟主席一起來爭取，謝謝。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們繼續努力。謝謝委員、謝謝主席。"],["主席：非常謝謝巧慧委員的質詢，謝謝董事長。","繼續請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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你們的網站這樣這樣對嗎"},{"start":101.565,"end":114.613,"text":"這個報告委員這個因為我們過去是在公共電視歷史公共電視所以我們有一些資料是還在掛在公共電視那其實我們現在已經有新的網站我本來要嚇你一下看起來你沒有被嚇倒對啦"},{"start":116.914,"end":136.52,"text":"這個網站是錯誤的啦這個是在2013年你們跟公共電視台還合併的時候的這個網站還在上面嘛可是你看我剛剛這樣查詢下去是不是很多人如果沒有像你們這樣這麼熟悉我們這麼熟悉原民台的歷史不知道啊原來他跟公共電視在一起後來又分開了"},{"start":138.2,"end":153.445,"text":"這個的話是不是照我剛剛這樣的邏輯下去我是用原住民族電視台當關鍵字下去查查了以後找到一個最像電視台的這個連結點下去點下去以後竟然是這個那你覺得我對原民台的印象會是什麼"},{"start":154.225,"end":160.888,"text":"當然不會很好啊所以我們現在這麼認真要對一個我們的辦公居住甚至電視台的營運大樓搬遷有做這麼好的計畫對不對今天我們特別還來質詢這個問題那我們的網站都搬家這麼久了這個部分是不是也應該要處理一下"},{"start":173.314,"end":184.679,"text":"是報告委員我們這個盡快跟就不需要的話可以移除嗎或者隱藏或者任何技術方式這技術嘛對不對我們盡快跟公共電視今天我們就跟公共電視聯繫討論一下那再增加我們搜尋上關鍵字是便利性"},{"start":189.341,"end":213.259,"text":"好你看看因為它到現在它上面還是因為系統的關係可以自動跳2024年5月所以大家一定會覺得說這個網站還是有動怎麼會動成這樣好那我們再回來事實上現在園園會園民台的網站我必須說做得非常好做得非常好我們來看一下下一個這個其實因為你做得多好我就讓大家自己去看了這個我就不是特別說了"},{"start":214.139,"end":234.611,"text":"我甚至要更進一步說我要稱讚原民台其實大家在最近的表現真的都很不錯去年的金鐘獎我們也入圍了9項節目甚至是像樹人大冒險還直接就得獎了動畫類是第一名嘛我們就直接得獎了這麼好的節目真的要感謝大家努力用心好可是啦"},{"start":235.171,"end":247.337,"text":"那我今天因為本來要質詢你們嘛所以我又想下去我本來想要截圖放一些這個樹人大冒險的畫面上來可是董事長你看樹人大冒險每一集都因著作權限制僅供原始頻道收視欸"},{"start":251.259,"end":251.299,"text":"請問這個問題是哪裡?"},{"start":273.528,"end":286.76,"text":"我們過去對著作權確實在跟委製單位或是內部的製作上在著作權的態度比較我認為是比較保守那今天我們會在 老實說我也當過製作單位啊你忘了對啊"},{"start":289.562,"end":318.079,"text":"所以基本上還是是預算的問題嘛因為事實上你付他多少錢那你得到的版權你可以在多少的載體上面能夠去播出你也必須讓製作團隊你不能說我付他70萬、90萬的製作費我在所有的地方通通都可以播我覺得這樣不合理你知道製作動畫多麼的昂貴嗎一集是很貴很貴的所以如果是這樣的話那他當然他先你付這個錢他只能在原事上面播放"},{"start":318.999,"end":336.077,"text":"他沒有授權你YT如果要在YT要在其他部分的話要另外加錢坦白講我覺得這合理啊好可是那所以縮規到最後還是錢的問題吧預算的問題吧是的就是我們在委制的過程製作單位他也會很堅持他的著作權"},{"start":336.718,"end":352.595,"text":"對這一塊我覺得我們應該用預算的方式去把它買斷或是用其他合作方式以前我在幫公共電視製作的時候我也很不希望是直接賣斷這麼便宜就買斷了這辛辛苦苦做的作品我也不希望是這樣所以說歸到底還是預算的問題"},{"start":353.195,"end":372.582,"text":"那預算你到底要爭取到多少才能夠足夠這樣而且我們今天跟這個課委會來比較坦白講我們做了一個比較其實這個課委會的部分課委會第一章第一章那課委會的部分和這個課台啦課台和人民台的部分你看看我們這個載體的部分其實課台的部分"},{"start":373.382,"end":399.711,"text":"坦白講還是多了一些喔他還是空間比較多了一些尤其是在podcast我們今天也在講podcast的部分啦因為親子這個族語的節目部分尤其是幼兒節目部分podcast有兩種啦一種就是上班族啊開車當背景音樂嘛但另外一種是什麼是還不會看字的小朋友是最好的那麼你的親子幼兒節目有沒有辦法轉換成podcast這個部分就像我自己也有一個podcast親子節目啊"},{"start":400.271,"end":415.072,"text":"所以在這個狀況下你是不是可以增加費用去談到這個部分Podcast的部分是不是可以更有企圖心的尤其是在學齡前兒童的節目這個部分我是認為是原民台可以再多折磨了董事長同意嗎"},{"start":416.193,"end":435.311,"text":"這也非常同意委員委員果然是專家就是我們對Podcast的經營這今年也很大的成果那在下個月我們會跟所有的節目42個節目會全部上Podcast那另外就是我們也會跟Spotify來做連結然後播出"},{"start":435.799,"end":451.782,"text":"我是覺得應該要認真爭取預算啦,如果不夠的話,主席很厲害,我們可以跟主席一起來爭取。好,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝主席。好,非常謝謝巧惠委員的質詢。謝謝董事長。繼續我們請蔓玉珍委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"152403","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152403","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734600f72855fa42143ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4dbcaba41c2d3d6ba95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:25:20 - 09:38:07","影片長度":"00:12:47","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":767,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:38:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:25:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時25分）主席謝謝，麻煩請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，在進入今天的專案報告之前，我先請教時事問題，上禮拜又看到桃園某高中女學生被霸凌的事件，影片瘋傳，請教有沒有看到這個影片？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分同仁有跟我特別提到。"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止，今天居然說這一個加害者還有假道歉，在上禮拜這個事情發生之後假道歉，再去提告這一個被害者說被害者公然侮辱他，事實可以這樣子黑白顛倒嗎？看到那個影片裡面，加害者是直接拿利剪對於被害者的頭髮、衣物進行攻擊及剪毀，校方第一時間居然還講他們原本是好朋友，因為網路的言論所以不合，馬上又被大家砲轟，難道社會安全網、教育安全網是魚死網破嗎？誰敢再讓學生去這一所學校？到目前為止，你們掌握狀況是怎麼樣，是不是說明一下？"],["潘部長文忠：這個事件發生後，教育部也要求地方政府跟學校，因為我們最近本來就有修訂霸凌準則，這個事項其實有非常嚴謹的規定，倒不是哪一方說是或否，或是表面做什麼處理，目前學校所組成的審查小組、調查小組，因為這裡面有二分之一以上是我們外聘委員會去做整個實況的瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以學校調查小組到底調查出結果了沒有？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，還沒。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果沒有的話，學校憑什麼先發這份聲明？"],["潘部長文忠：我認為一切都應該以調查結果來做說明比較好……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！部長沒有錯啊！"],["潘部長文忠：就像我回復委員也是說他們明明還在調查過程，這個時候可能不能憑哪一個人所知道的資訊，就去說這個事件可能是什麼，我覺得這個不宜。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！校方的聲明在網路上大家都看得到，表示有關大家關心的事情，謝謝大家關心跟協助，然後通知了家長，原本雙方是好友，因為網路語言造成糾紛，後續校方將協助處理跟持續追蹤輔導。輕描淡寫，說實在話，我覺得不管是什麼樣的教育環境，校方本來應該是事主，結果好像變成是公親，覺得好像沒有它的事情。"],["潘部長文忠：這也正是為什麼在過去的時間裡，我們把校園霸凌相關事項的準則進行比較充分地整理，當中也就是避免學校在事況的調查、瞭解或因應一些背後的什麼因素，而產生委員剛才所看到的現象。"],["洪委員孟楷：你訂出多少準則，如果第一線的教育工作環境沒有辦法依照這個準則來做，這樣子都是白訂。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個也正是我們說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以人家才會說難道非要出人命才會重視嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分為什麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：今天他是拿利剪去剪頭髮，如果那一天利剪沒有剪到頭髮，而是往他身上、臉部、五官衝去，其實就一線之隔，那是不是就可能造成永久性的傷害？即便不是今天這個影片出來，對於被害者的心理層面，我覺得也是一輩子的傷害，那也需要後續的輔導。再者，有沒有去掌握這一個加害者到底有沒有相關的幫派背景？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，目前為止這部分，因為他們正在依照準則來調查的過程，我想在這方面的內容出來之後，我再……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時間點會出來調查的結果？"],["潘部長文忠：我們來督促桃園市政府教育局跟學校，原來在準則本來就有一個期限。"],["洪委員孟楷：對！"],["潘部長文忠：所以我想一定要在期限裡面完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且更重要的他是不是有幫派背景或什麼，我們不得而知，但真的一定要去瞭解，不只是校方的部分，他的心態都應該被檢討，還有連同其他外部警察以及相關的部分都要介入。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分我會請國教署跟桃園市政府教育局，我想對這個案子，我們必須……因為就像委員剛才講到，我早上也看到這則新聞，加害行為人突然又有另外一個想法了……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：所以我想在這個方面的督導，教育部請國教署這邊應該要專案來列管後續調查的情形。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，專案列管。","促進國際生來臺跟留臺的實施計畫，我們特別看到今天的報告，其中有講到會有國發基金提供產學獎助金，還有企業提供生活跟實習津貼，目前看起來是一個月一萬元左右，來吸引優秀的國際生來臺就讀跟留臺。但是很多外界關心，本席還是再次強調，國際生願意來臺灣就讀，並且能夠發揮所長，我覺得這是好事，過去以來，我覺得這個政策的宗旨跟出發點是好的；但是有一些不肖的，不管是學校或是企業，他就變成是變價的廉價勞工、奴工，來造成很多人……甚至之前媒體也有說是新南向產學專班的亂象，跟人口販運一線之隔，這個標題很重喔！我們現在又再看到有這樣的生活津貼，每個月一萬，但是他後續有兩年的就業義務。我想請教，在這個過程裡面，我們教育部有什麼樣新的方式來確實督導，不要讓過去的黑工亂象發生？"],["潘部長文忠：是，委員所指導這部分，我跟委員報告，新南向產攜國際專班，確實當時在開始啟動，我發現我們也面對這些部分的學校，在招收學生上確實有這種便宜行事，可能透過當地的這些人力仲介等等的。所以委員也知道，有一段時間，教育部是使出非常強力的要求，也要讓我們的學校，既然要招這樣的學生，一定要親身去做相關的招生作業，而招生的相關過程，第一個，絕對不准講假仲介；再來，所有的通知、入學等等，一定要給當事的學生知道，而且要用他當地國的語言讓他知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那時候甚至還有傳出來說明明當地國的學生要報考的是觀光科系，結果來臺灣之後才知道觀光科系根本沒了，然後他要去做餐飲科系，就完全跟他的想像不同，然後人力仲介就說你已經收了人力費用，你還是要來念，用話術來騙說進來之後再轉學，但是一進來之後，也就不關人力仲介的事了，它已經都不管了，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：所以委員知道前面這幾年為什麼有好多的學校在處理這些很不當，我想這個不只是影響臺灣在國際高教的聲譽，所以對於幾所的學校，教育部是採取非常重的懲罰，甚至有幾所已經退場了，這個也是我們希望政府全力，包含企業這次願意共同來支持，學校招生這是它基本的義務，如果只是為了招生，根本連學生在哪裡、學生要讀的什麼都不……所以這次不管在相關的這些辦法裡面，都非常清楚的……包含最新的促進國際招生的這些作業，很多的規範是把過去遭遇的這些學校疏忽甚至是不當的措施，做了這方面的規範……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們來講一下怎麼樣落實這個督導好不好？你之前有提到獎學金綁學生恐違反勞基法，所以教育部擬研擬企業契約範本，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來？"],["潘部長文忠：這個已經完成了，這部分我們再詳細給委員參考，因為我剛才跟委員報告的是說新南向國際產攜專班的一些我們說不好的現象，其實都是作為我們後續這幾項修正的規範，包含實習，因為實習有兩種，一種是校內還有學生打工，依照勞基法的規範，它有打工的規範，像這一些我們在相關的實施規範裡面，都給學校非常明確的要求，就不會有那種魚目混珠說我明明是要來打工，又把它當成實習的課程，所以在這種查核的方面也非常地確實，跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以第一，絕對不會再出現，明明是打工，但是把它算入他的一個學科，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，已經有前車之鑑的學校，我想學校之間也知道教育部所採取的態度，幾乎是沒有什麼打折的機會，所以這部分我相信在未來我們面對國際招生，跟把這些國際學生能夠有機會留下來臺灣工作等等的，我相信大學是非常地清楚，我也一再在大學校長會議，讓大學校長們知道目前面對生員的困窘情況，大家是要全力以赴，不要再像過往所出現一些不好的案例。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，絕對不要劣幣驅逐良幣，其實本席也知道很多的學校它也願意來做比較好的人才培養，但是就是因為過去有這樣子劣幣驅逐良幣的狀況，而造成說他們其實要再招收也不一定那麼地容易。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛才提到的那個契約範本，再提供給本席。"],["潘部長文忠：好，我再請次長這邊給委員參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，我想確認一下，因為到目前為止，我們是說5年要投入52億的經費來招收國際生，而且現在預計2030年國際生可能累積到32萬人；但陸生的部分，到目前為止……"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這幾年在兩岸的青年學生上的交流，我想教育部的態度……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們這邊也看到了嘛！就是……"],["潘部長文忠：一直都沒有改變過，就歡迎他們過來。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，被質疑說沒有善待陸生，馬上教育部也拿出來，沒有啊！陸生在臺灣的就學滿意有高達七成，那一樣道理，到目前為止，難道陸生的部分還是僵在這邊嗎？觀光客僵在那邊，陸生也要僵在這邊，我們沒有辦法有更春暖花開的時候……"],["潘部長文忠：比較遺憾的是過去這幾年，我們說大學學位生的這部分，但是112學年度我看到疫情過後，現在研修生的部分又開始恢復，當然還不到當時最多三萬兩千多位，大概目前已經有逐漸從之前幾乎零，現在在112學年度有兩千六百多位。我也看到各大學還有兩岸也在思考，原來他們都要有隨隊的老師，原來個別學校個位數比較少的，這個教育部也跟陸委會來討論，也確立比如說有3、5所學校共同要過來的研修團學生，我們也支持啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我這樣請教，因為520下禮拜新政府即將上任，新的部長即將上任，就你的觀察跟瞭解，到底我們對陸生這一塊學術交流的部分，有沒有契機能夠更往前、更開放？還是說新政府的部分就是會越緊縮，兩岸到底有沒有機會透過學術交流或是陸生的來臺就學，而有更進一步的一個方向？"],["潘部長文忠：如果就我們臺灣教育部對於陸生的這部分，一直都是持開放跟歡迎，包含疫情期間，當時他們有幾個，我們還是都設法來支持，包含現在研修生，我剛才跟委員報告這部分，所以整體教育部在這個政策上是開放，我們也比較希望這是雙向的啦！如果大陸能夠對於陸生到臺灣……你看他們有七成就學，說實在還蠻喜歡來臺灣求學的，我想這個基礎上，教育部這邊一直沒變，我想520之後應該也不會變。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，互相喊話啦！所以最重要就是希望兩岸能夠更春暖花開，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lci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麻煩請潘部長來 部長 謝謝"},{"start":17.728,"end":34.329,"text":"委員長部長在進入今天的專案報告之前我先請教時事問題上禮拜又看到說桃園某高中有女學生被霸凌的一個事件影片瘋傳請教有沒有看到這個影片這部分同仁有跟我特別提到"},{"start":35.646,"end":60.502,"text":"到目前為止今天居然講到的是說這一個加害者他還有假道歉在上禮拜這個事情發生之後假道歉然後居然是再去提告這一個被害者說被害者公然侮辱他就是說事實可以這樣子黑白顛倒嗎?看到那個影片裡面加害者是直接拿利檢來對於這個被害者頭髮"},{"start":62.884,"end":68.668,"text":"社會安全網、教育安全網是魚死網破嗎?那誰敢再去讓學生去這個學校?"},{"start":85.035,"end":86.176,"text":"到目前為止我們掌握狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":114.858,"end":119.501,"text":"所以學校調查小組到底調查出結果沒有?委員還沒那如果沒有的話學校憑什麼先發這個聲明?這個我認為一切都應該以調查結果來做說明再好就像今天我回覆委員你就是說他們明明就還在調查的過程可能不能說這個時候憑哪一個人所知道的資訊就去做這個事件可能是什麼我覺得是錯誤"},{"start":139.895,"end":163.79,"text":"所以說校方還講校方的聲明啊甚至讓大家就覺得說真的是校方的聲明啊在網路上大家都看得到講說有關大家關心的事情然後謝謝大家關心跟協助然後通知了家長原本雙方是好友因為與網路語言造成糾紛後續校方將協助處理跟持續追蹤輔導輕描淡寫"},{"start":168.106,"end":170.928,"text":"跟委員報告這也正是為什麼在過去一個時間裡面我們把校園霸凌的相關事項的準則做了一個比較充分的整理那當中也就是"},{"start":192.164,"end":219.842,"text":"你訂出多少準則如果說第一線的教育工作環境沒有辦法依照這個準則來做那這樣子都是白點所以人家才會講是說難道非要出人命才會重視嗎今天他是拿力檢去剪頭髮如果說那一天力檢沒有剪到頭髮而是往他身上臉部五官"},{"start":220.913,"end":221.173,"text":"主持人的評論"},{"start":240.727,"end":263.702,"text":"委員這部分可能目前為止因為我就說他正在依照準則來調查的過程我想相信這方面的內容出來之後什麼時間點會出來調查這個我們來督促桃園市政府教育局跟學校因為原來在準則本來就有一個期限所以我想一定要在期限裡面完成而且更重要的是他可能不是"},{"start":264.502,"end":270.264,"text":"委員這部分我會請國教署跟桃園市政府教育局我想對這個案子我們必須因為就像委員剛才講到我早上也看到這一則新聞就是這個加害行為人突然又有另外一個想法沒錯"},{"start":291.493,"end":291.613,"text":"部長專案列管"},{"start":304.863,"end":327.004,"text":"推進國際生來臺及留臺的實施計畫我們特別看到今天的一個報告那其中有講到說會有國發基金提供產學獎助金還有企業提供生活跟實習津貼目前看起來是一個月一萬元左右來吸引這個優秀的國際生來臺就讀跟留臺但是很多外界關心我覺得"},{"start":327.825,"end":356.248,"text":"本期還是再次強調國際生願意來臺灣來就讀並且能夠發揮所長我覺得這是好事過去以來我覺得這個政策的宗旨跟出發點是好的但是有一些不孝的不管是學校或是不管是企業他就變成是變價的廉價勞工奴工來造成是說很多人甚至之前媒體也有講是說新南向產學專班的亂象跟人口販運一線之隔"},{"start":358.029,"end":379.065,"text":"這個標題很重喔那我們現在又在看到是說有這樣的一個生活津貼每個月一萬但是他要有兩年的這個後續有兩年的就業義務那我想請教在這個過程裡面我們教育部有什麼樣新的方式來確實督導不要讓過去的黑工亂象"},{"start":380.673,"end":405.234,"text":"委員所指導這部分,我也跟委員報告新南向產西國際專班確實當時在開始啟動我發現我們也面對這些部分的學校在招收學生上確實有這種便宜形式可能透過當地的這些人力、仲介等等的所以我也知道在有一段時間教育部是使出非常強力的要求"},{"start":406.716,"end":406.816,"text":"洪孟楷"},{"start":424.798,"end":441.701,"text":"那時候甚至還有傳出來說明明當地國的學生要的報考的是觀光科系結果來台灣之後才知道說觀光科系根本沒了然後他要去做餐飲科系然後就完全跟他的想像不同然後人力仲介就說你已經收了這個人力費用你還是要來唸"},{"start":443.483,"end":446.705,"text":"所以這個委員知道前面這幾年為什麼有好多的學校在處理這些很不當我想這個不只是影響臺灣在國際高校的聲譽所以幾所的學校教育部是採取非常重的懲罰甚至有幾所已經退場了"},{"start":465.439,"end":486.302,"text":"這也是我們希望政府全力,包含企業這一次願意共同來支持那學校招生這是它基本的義務啦如果只是為了招生根本連學生在哪裡學生要讀的什麼都不所以這一次在不管相關的這些辦法裡面都非常清楚的包含最新的促進國際招生的這些作業很多的這個規範"},{"start":487.463,"end":509.436,"text":"是把過去遭遇的這些學校疏忽甚至是不當的措施做了這方面的規範部長我們來講一下怎麼樣落實這個督導好不好好你這邊之前有提到是說講學金榜學生恐違反勞基法所以教育部你研擬契約範本對不對有什麼時候會出來"},{"start":510.998,"end":514.139,"text":"這個已經完成了這部分我們再詳細給委員參考因為我剛才跟委員報告的是說新南向國際產系專班的一些我們說不好的現象其實都是作為我們後續這幾項修正的規範包含實習因為實習還有兩種一種是校內一種還有學生還有打工依照勞基法的規範他有打工的規範像這一些我們在相關的實施規範裡面都給學校非常的明確的要求就不會有那種"},{"start":540.503,"end":542.486,"text":"所以第一 絕對不會再出現明明是打工但是他把他算入說他的一個學科是不是"},{"start":555.826,"end":560.93,"text":"這部分我相信在未來我們面對國際招生跟把這些國際學生能夠有機會留下來臺灣工作等等的我相信大學是非常的清楚我也在大學校長會議讓大學校長們知道目的面對生源的困窘情況大家是要全力以赴"},{"start":584.81,"end":585.07,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":603.434,"end":611.238,"text":"最後部長你剛剛提到那個契約範本你再提供給本席最後我想確認一下啦因為到目前為止我們講是說5年要投入52億的經費來跟國際生來招收而且現在講說2030年預計國際生可能累積到32萬人但陸生的部分到目前為止"},{"start":624.645,"end":628.488,"text":"被質疑說沒有善待陸生馬上教育部員拿出來沒有啊陸生在臺灣的就業滿意有高達七成啊"},{"start":642.12,"end":653.509,"text":"對,就學滿意也高達七成啊那一樣的道理啊到目前為止難道陸生的部分還是將在這邊嗎觀光客將在那邊那陸生也要將在這邊我們沒有辦法有更純潤花開的時候比較遺憾的是過去這幾年我們說大學學位生的這部分但是112學年度我看到疫情過後現在研修生的部分又開始恢復當然還不到當時最多三萬兩千多位啦大概目前已經有逐漸"},{"start":671.684,"end":671.824,"text":"部長 我這樣請教"},{"start":694.472,"end":714.959,"text":"因為520下禮拜新政府即將上任新的部長即將上任就你的觀察跟了解到底我們對陸生這一塊學術交流的部分有沒有契機能夠更往前更開放還是說新政府的部分就是會越緊縮兩岸到底有沒有機會透過學術交流或是這個陸生的來台就學"},{"start":715.759,"end":715.879,"text":"大陸這邊 能夠對於"},{"start":741.643,"end":741.823,"text":"韓國瑜主席"}]}},{"id":"152402","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152402","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17346a7c80b9827400e6a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d790d974d09a95bb25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:25:57 - 09:34:38","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":521,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:34:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:25:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時26分）謝謝主席。有請田次長，還有領務局何局長。"],["主席：請田次長，還有領務局何局長。"],["田次長中光：羅委員您早。"],["羅委員美玲：次長早安。次長，本席要就部分國家外籍配偶申請依親面談的制度跟兩位再做個請教，我很感謝田次長在3月份詢答的時候，對於依親面談的制度給了一個非常正面跟善意的回應，例如說，往後我們的面談制度可能會朝比較多元的方式來進行，另外對於一些國家，我們是不是要調整、是不是要做移除？田次長在3月份，其實也做了一個非常正面的回應。事隔兩個月，本席想要再請教次長，到底這兩個月來，我們有做了哪些調整？尤其是對於本席上次3月份的時候曾經有提過，原先我們有22個國家需要面談，2021年時因為本席跟外交部多次的要求，後來我們移除了哈薩克、白俄羅斯跟烏茲別克3個國家，可是剩下來19個國家，我們看一下，其實有些國家每一年需要申請依親面談的人數有些是個位數，甚至有些是沒有人申請，像不丹、塞內加爾、斯里蘭卡這些，他們其實都沒有人申請這方面的簽證，我們一直留在帳面上，對於國際形象來講其實也不是那麼好，像烏克蘭現在面臨戰爭，要去配偶的母國做面談其實是不容易的事情，所以我想請教田次長這兩個月下來，我們到底做了哪些調整？"],["田次長中光：首先還是要謝謝羅委員對結婚面談這個事情一直關注，我想外交部在結婚自由以及防堵非法境外入境這方面，我們要採取一個平衡，所以上次跟您報告以後，我們領務局的同仁已經出發到了越南，您可以看到它是人數最多的地方。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["田次長中光：我們希望從六個月的時間，現在把它縮成四個月，當然可能還要給我們一點時間，因為這個量是非常的大，不過已經在進行了。另外，我們已經取消有些國家結婚面談一些文件的驗證，因為他們確實有些困難。"],["羅委員美玲：哪些國家？我們這19國有做調整嗎？"],["田次長中光：我是不是可以請領務局長很詳細跟您說明一下？"],["羅委員美玲：好，麻煩何局長。"],["何局長震寰：謝謝委員垂詢，這個問題，我想上一次我們也跟委員報告過，我們大概年初就已經……因為我們不定期都會去檢討相關的制度，其實到現在、到這個月，我們應該已經接近檢討完成的階段。所以我想跟委員報告，很短的時間之內，我們會朝向再精簡的方向去跟委員做報告，就是面談的國家。"],["羅委員美玲：就是面談的國家，所以有些國家其實是會再次的移除嗎？就是剛才我所提到像不丹、塞內加爾、斯里蘭卡這些國家，根本就沒有人要申請這個簽證了，所以你掛在帳面上其實真的很不OK，像柬埔寨，說實在的，為什麼在東南亞國家裡面柬埔寨會是申請面談人數最少的？那是因為他們的國家要去面談其實不容易、也不可能，所以要跑一趟越南，就像柬埔寨的人民想要跟國人結婚，這是非常困難的一條路，是不是就有機會把柬埔寨的面談先移除，針對這個部分？"],["何局長震寰：完成程序後，我們會正式公告。"],["羅委員美玲：所以你們其實已經有調整的動作了，到時調整完的話，會對我報告的意思嗎？希望能夠聽到這個好消息，何局長請回。","我剛剛有聽了國安局跟我們外交部的專題報告，國安局跟外交部都認為歐盟與中國在區域安全跟經濟安全等議題，其實存在了很多分歧，所以外交部是認為臺灣將持續跟法國、跟歐盟等理念相近的國家其實都可以繼續合作下去，是比較樂觀的一個想法，可是國安局卻認為，中共可能會持續分化歐盟內部跟美歐關係，然後連帶牽制渠等對臺政策的立場，其實我們都知道法國總理馬克宏其實很積極地推動歐洲戰略自主，他們想在防疫跟國家安全上面避免成為美國的附庸，所以我們可以看到這幾年來，法國跟中國是眉來眼去的，他們希望把中國視為一個平衡的力量。再來，像這次習近平到了法國、塞爾維亞跟匈牙利，我們會不會擔心中國往後會在歐盟國家來一一擊破？然後對於我們跟歐洲，在疫情情況也好或是反侵略的風潮之下，我們跟歐洲很多國家建立起來的這些友善的關係會被習近平一一擊破的動作之下，我們跟歐洲過往的友臺的狀況會有所改變，會不會有這種狀況？我們會擔憂嗎？"],["田次長中光：我們相信習近平這次訪歐洲絕對不會是唯一的一次。我想在未來這個期間，他會分別的，不但去訪問或者去邀請一些歐洲的國家來訪問中國，這是一定會發生的事情，但是我們也可以看得出來，這一次即使在中國跟法國建交六十週年，非常重要的期間，然後法國也要舉行奧運，而且它的經貿問題……"],["羅委員美玲：他們在談奧運停火的部分。"],["田次長中光：對，停火協定，這對法國來講是很重要的，但是法國也一再再重申，臺灣海峽的安全跟穩定是非常重要，所以我覺得他們是從兩個方面來看這個問題，經貿的議題、安全的問題，他們做一個很聰明的區隔，當然比如塞爾維亞、匈牙利，這是鐵桿的，可能搖動性比較難，但是我們現在在歐盟所做的一些工作，事實上也可以做一些平衡，如果委員也注意到，最近歐盟的一些國家在臺灣的支持力度也非常非常的強，所以我們必須趁這個時候，跟民主like-minded country怎麼樣結合在一起，用臺灣的優勢、民主、自由、人權來強化跟他們的關係。"],["羅委員美玲：是，我們目前維持得非常好，應該是過往最好的一次，我想這個關係是在這麼多年以來，我們跟歐洲的關係是最好的一次，所以我們也很擔心習近平，就像次長您剛才所提到的，習近平的訪歐絕對不是唯一的一次，我們也很擔心他一次一次的訪歐，然後跟歐洲之間互動越來越親密，因為我們也會覺得像烏克蘭、烏俄戰爭也許可能已經到了尾聲，我想歐盟是不是有些國家也希望跟中國來修補關係？這個會不會是臺灣的一個危機？我們所擔心的是這個。"],["田次長中光：烏克蘭戰爭其實是把臺灣推到了一個更高的高度，跟這些理念相近國家怎麼樣結合在一起。"],["羅委員美玲：是，沒錯，就是剛才我所提到的，大家在反侵略的風潮之下，臺灣其實是受到很多歐洲國家的認同，可是當這個風潮過的時候，臺灣會不會跟歐洲的關係有所變化？比較擔心的是這個。"],["田次長中光：跟委員報告，我們會持續的跟歐洲、歐盟的國家，以及全世界理念相近國家，持續的以臺灣的優勢跟他們加強關係。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，謝謝，外交部辛苦了，謝謝。"],["田次長中光：謝謝您。"],["主席：接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":3.5915937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.097843750000001,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.868468750000002,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.62471875000001,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.80596875,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.51159375,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.26221875000002,"end":170.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.18159375000002,"end":171.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.92784375000002,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.51846875,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.21284375000002,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.11096875,"end":256.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.72909375,"end":288.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.45409375,"end":354.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.91221875,"end":375.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.92409375,"end":360.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.32909375,"end":360.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.98909375000005,"end":387.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.67096875000004,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.67909375000005,"end":439.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.02909375,"end":390.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.47284375000004,"end":483.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.24221875,"end":494.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.84846875000005,"end":507.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.00846875,"end":495.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.51721875000004,"end":506.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.71534375000005,"end":518.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.51534375,"end":520.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.30409375,"end":520.89471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":3.319,"text":"有請田次長還有領務局何局長請田次長還有領務局何局長"},{"start":12.668,"end":36.286,"text":"羅委員您早次長早安次長本席要就這個部分國家外籍配偶申請這個疫情面談的這個制度跟兩位再做一個請教我很感謝田次長在3月份巡達的時候對於這個疫情面談的制度給了一個非常正面跟善意的這個回應例如說往後我們的面談制度可能會潮"},{"start":36.766,"end":38.367,"text":"本席上次辦三月份的時候曾經有提過原先我們有22個國家需要面談2021年的時候因為本席跟"},{"start":66.781,"end":69.442,"text":"外交部多次要求移除哈薩克、白俄羅斯、烏茲別克三個國家,但剩下的19個國家每一年需要申請一期面纏人數,有些是個位數,甚至有些是"},{"start":87.39,"end":87.55,"text":"請問田次長"},{"start":115.84,"end":139.716,"text":"首先還是要謝謝羅委員對這個結婚面談這個事情的一直的關注那麼我想外交部在結婚自由以及防堵非法境外入境的這方面我們要採取一個平衡所以上次跟您報告以後我們領務局的同仁已經出發到了越南"},{"start":140.336,"end":164.248,"text":"越南可以看到它是人數最多的地方我們希望從6個月的時間現在把它縮完4個月那麼這個時間當然可能還要給我們一點時間因為這個量是非常的大不過已經在進行了另外有些國家我們已經取消了他結婚面談一些文件的驗證因為確實他們有些困難我們這19國有做調整嗎"},{"start":167.369,"end":171.035,"text":"是不是我可以請林務局長很詳細跟您說明一下麻煩何局長"},{"start":174.333,"end":200.649,"text":"謝謝委員徐馨這個問題我想上一次我們也跟委員報告過我們大概年初就已經因為我們不定期都會去檢討相關的這個制度那其實到現在到這個月應該我們已經接近檢討完成的這個階段所以我想跟委員報告很短的時間之內我們會朝向這個在精簡的方向去跟委員做報告那個就是面談的國家"},{"start":201.584,"end":229.313,"text":"就是面談的國家,所以有些國家其實是會再次的移除嘛有些,就是說剛才我所提到,像波丹塞內加爾、斯里蘭卡這些國家根本就沒有人要申請這個簽證了所以你掛在帳面上其實真的很不OK,像柬埔寨柬埔寨說實在的,為什麼在東南亞國家裡面柬埔寨會是申請面談人數最少的那是因為他們的國家其實要申請,要去面談其實這個不容易,也不可能,所以要跑一趟越南"},{"start":229.773,"end":254.474,"text":"所以就像柬埔寨的人民想要跟國人結婚這是一個非常困難的一條路那是不是就有機會把柬埔寨的面談是不是先移除這個部分完成程序後我們會正式公告所以說你們其實已經有這個調整的這個動作了倒是調整完的話會對我報告的意思嗎希望能夠聽到這個好消息好那再來就是賀局長慶回"},{"start":257.796,"end":281.781,"text":"我剛剛有聽了就是國安局跟這個我們外交部的專題報告那國安局跟外交部都認為歐盟與中國在區域安全跟經濟安全等議題其實存在了很多的這個分歧所以我們認為說那外交部是認為說台灣呢將持續跟法國跟歐盟的理念相近的國家其實都可以合作"},{"start":282.981,"end":286.884,"text":"中國國安局認為中共可能會持續分化歐盟內部跟美歐關係,然後連帶牽制取等對台政策的立場。其實我們都知道法國總理馬克宏很積極地推動歐洲戰略,自主他們想在防疫跟國家安全上面避免成為美國的"},{"start":308.678,"end":314.76,"text":"所以我們可以看到說這幾年來法國跟這個中國是眉來眼去的他們在這個他們希望把中國視為一個平衡的這個力量那再來的話像這一次這個習近平到了法國塞爾維亞跟這個匈牙利我們會不會擔心就是說中國往後會在歐盟這個國家一一來做這個擊破然後對於我們跟這個歐洲在疫情情況也好或是反侵略的風潮之下"},{"start":338.647,"end":338.707,"text":"會不會有這種狀況?我們會擔憂嗎?"},{"start":355.289,"end":374.979,"text":"我們相信習近平這次訪歐洲絕對不會是唯一的一次我想在未來這個期間他會分別的不但去訪問或者去邀請一些歐洲的國家來訪問中國這是一定會發生的事情但是我們也可以看得出來這一次"},{"start":376.078,"end":380.5,"text":"即使在中國跟法國建交60週年,非常重要的一個時間,然後法國也要舉行奧運,而且它的經貿問題,對,停火協定,這對法國很重要的,但是法國也一再再重申對台灣海峽的安全跟穩定是非常重要的。"},{"start":399.188,"end":401.191,"text":"所以我覺得他們是從兩個方面來看這個問題經貿的議題的安全的問題他們做一個很聰明的一個區隔當然比如說塞爾維亞這是鐵桿的匈牙利這個可能搖動性比較難"},{"start":414.611,"end":438.453,"text":"但是我們現在在歐盟所做的一些工作事實上也可以做一些平衡如果委員也注意到最近歐盟的一些國家在臺灣的支持的力度也非常非常的強所以我們必須趁這個時候跟民主like-minded country怎麼樣結合在一起用臺灣的優勢、民主、自由、人權來強化跟他們的關係"},{"start":440.054,"end":456.901,"text":"這是我們目前維持了非常好,應該是過往最好的一次。我們跟歐洲的這個關係,我想是這個關係是在這麼多年以來,我們跟歐洲的關係是最好的一次。所以我們也很擔心習近平,就像市長您剛所提到的,"},{"start":459.282,"end":470.008,"text":"習近平的這個訪歐絕對不是唯一的一次我們也很擔心他一次一次的訪歐然後跟歐洲之間的互動越來越親密因為我們也會覺得說像烏克蘭、烏俄戰爭其實這個可能也許會已經到了這個尾聲我想歐盟是不是有些國家也希望跟中國來修補這個關係這個會不會是台灣的一個危機我們所擔心的是這個"},{"start":484.758,"end":506.965,"text":"其實烏克蘭戰爭其實是把臺灣推到了更一個更高的高度,跟這些理念相近國家,怎麼樣結合在一起。是,是,沒錯。就是剛才我所提到的,就是大家在反侵略的風潮之下,臺灣其實是受到很多歐洲國家的認同。可是當這個風潮過的時候,臺灣會不會跟歐洲的關係是有所變化?比較擔心的是這個。"},{"start":507.805,"end":507.985,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734db1df40a4a9e847cba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d366415bc451f225f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:13:48 - 09:21:21","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":453,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:21:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:13:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":64,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時13分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。在520以前，我想這是最後一次跟您在質詢臺上對話。"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：首先，我要以家長的身分感謝部長這幾年的辛勞，在很多過往的經驗當中，很多人都會說潘部長是最懂國教的部長，也因為這樣，所以在很多的國教議題上，確實看到潘部長有非常非常多、非常積極的作為，例如，我從去年遞補到現在，在國教法、特教法、霸凌防制準則、三聘辦法及性平教育法，其實都可以看得見部長對於國教的關懷。我很好奇，部長在這一段工作時間當中，你自己覺得最有成就感的事情是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員剛才的鼓勵，在這將近七年多來，我算過了，到520是2,645天。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們幫你算過了，是七年多。"],["潘部長文忠：其實在過去這段時間，我們也正面對非常多項的衝擊，108課綱是這些年比較重大的事項，尤其剛才委員談到高中以下這些課程改革要面對未來培養孩子的能力，這個工程非常龐雜。在討論、審議的過程加上有很多各界的參與，包含學生代表，這一次大家確實比較能夠完整地來共同討論，當然也花了很長的時間，包含後續推動。我要跟委員報告最大的挑戰其實是這三年的疫情，看到全世界在面對疫情後，很多學校學生學習中斷的情形，尤其最嚴肅的是入學部分中斷。但臺灣這些年因為中央、地方政府還有學校一起努力，我們幾乎沒有讓孩子的學習中斷，尤其是各項重大的入學考試，我們克服各項困難讓它能夠執行，因為這對孩子未來的升學發展，對家長都是很重大的事。但是因為疫情的變化千變萬化，每一次我們都謹慎以待，還有跟指揮中心擬定特別方案，保障每一位孩子不會因為疫情受影響，甚至他確診了，最後還是能夠讓孩子進場考試，三年的準備不能因為一個疫情影響到他未來學習的發展。疫情是我過去沒有經歷過的，但是跟同仁一起努力了三年，這確實是非常不容易，但慶幸臺灣走過來了。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，我自己的小孩確實也是在疫情那一年正要考試，我印象非常深刻，那天我們考完第一天會考，正在決定第二天到底能不能考，還好教育部和當時蘇院長決定讓我們繼續考完，所以我也印象非常深刻，這是部長剛剛說你覺得最有成就感的事情。但是我們要另外問，有沒有在您任內覺得很遺憾、沒有辦法完成，但是你會願意放在交接清單的前三名跟下一位部長溝通？我覺得這也是國人非常好奇和關心的。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這些年雖然大家都很努力，包含大院教文會的委員，一直在關心學校校安、霸凌等等，包含一些其次的問題，我覺得校園是一個支持孩子學習的地方，可是卻經常有一些個案的影響發生，加上我覺得整個社會環境大幅變化，對孩子在心理情緒、學習上確實有相當的影響，也有一些校園自傷、自殺的個案，這部分我一直覺得一定要再持續努力。雖然教育部已經在做學生輔導法相關草案的整理，但是在大家意見整合方面看起來還需要再做努力，我覺得學生輔導法務必一定要能夠就目前我們所遭遇的面向多加協助，未來也要麻煩委員這邊再做努力。儘管像大學校院這些專輔人員在113年的預算已經先行了，但是我覺得還是要有法制面的支持，包含中小學整體的人力結構，還有相關專輔人員、輔導教師的這些任務分工方面，走過這幾年如果能夠有一個更好的機制，我相信是比較能夠齊心協力來支持孩子在未來這些發展上的需求。"],["陳委員培瑜：非常謝謝部長的回復，其實我還滿驚訝部長提到學輔法，因為我在心裡面幫你放的也是學輔法，這件事情確實是很多……而且最近也才發生桃園霸凌事件，我相信部長都知道，這個部分就先謝謝部長的回應。等一下我準備了一本繪本要送給部長，我剛剛說你是最懂國教的部長，過去我在跟部長討論很多議題的時候，我發現你對國教階段的孩子真的有滿滿的耐心和愛心，這本書我自己非常喜歡，這個作家今年也要到國際書展來，書名叫「飛一下、休息一下、再想一下……」，我覺得很適合部長，也許接下來休息，但是休息完不要都沒有再往下做，我相信部長在教育議題、教育領域一定還有東西可以發揮，這個書等一下就送給部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來回到今天的主題，今天雖然在談國際招生，教育部的業務報告也提了非常多跟企業合作或是學校的設立，可是其實我們關心的是無國籍者是否可以來臺就讀。去年某北部大學招收了一個無國籍藏人學生，後來行政院和教育部有介入相關協調，後續也發函告訴這個北部大學不要再收相關的學生，可是今年這個學校又再次收到來自西藏學生的申請，四名藏人學生再被校方以教育部的指導下，以無國籍為由拒絕相關申請，部長一定非常熟悉相關議題，我就不再多說。我們有沒有機會請部長想一想，或是跟下一屆部長交接修正「外國學生來臺就學辦法」這個議題？其實在「無國籍學生就讀國民小學及國民中學辦法」是依照大學法第二十五條另定關於無國籍學生來臺就學辦法跟要點，我覺得我們在看國際人才的時候，其實很多人都知道很多藏人學生是來自於印度，如果我們在很多南向政策上，必須要跟這些國家有接軌的經驗，也許這些學生就是我們非常好的新南向的好幫手。在相關辦法修訂之前，有沒有機會藉由過去的相關經驗，面對無國籍藏人的求學申請，輔以達賴喇嘛基金會作為保證機構配套？我想這個部分也許今天部長來不及回應，但後續是不是可以跟新部長有交接的機會？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。這些年就像委員提到的，我們在國中小其實也有突破，大院這邊也支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我都認同。"],["潘部長文忠：過往像香港政治比較危急的階段，對於港生來臺也有一個比較具彈性的措施，我想這部分會請國際司持續來跟外交部就這方面的議題進行討論，因為確實已經陸陸續續有這種情況，我相信跨部會應該可以找到因應的措施。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒問題，這個部分也謝謝部長的回應，部長請回。","接下來請體育署長，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長及主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，在520之後，我猜想您會繼續留任，所以有很多事情要持續跟署長拜託及討論。這個是全大運的開幕現場，署長你有在現場，在畫面中，其中有一個可憐的選手，他的心情非常地錯綜複雜，可是他還是乖乖地在這一天把聖火的工作完成，發生了什麼事情呢？他其實被取消了資格，其中有一個選手曾經在過往自費報名參加國際賽事，在相關的規定上他就被算成國家代表隊，所以他這一次在相關運動賽事上的報名資格被認定有問題，最後被取消，這個事情不知道署長您知不知道？"],["鄭署長世忠：我曉得，這部分有經過我們組委會開會決議，還是必須依照競賽規程取消他的資格。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。目前看起來辦法是這樣，可是我們來看一下，這個一刀兩斷的切法真的合理嗎？再跟署長分享另外一個案例，一日體資生、終日體資生這件事情，我覺得也是相關類似的爭議，目前這個事情，我剛剛說的兩個選手，其中的一個選手也很願意接受目前的仲裁結果，可是這樣的限制是不是合理？我們來看一下，今天他不是透過單項協會的選拔，也不是體育署的審查報名，而只是協會代為報名自己自費報名的選手，就要被算進國家代表隊嗎？我剛右邊的這個例子，就是所謂的一日體資生、終日體資生，我們覺得相關的很多辦法是不合理的。","我們是不是可以跟署長討論──其實通盤檢討相關的規程、分級制度合理性，檢視目的跟手段一致性的這件事情，還有認真思考公正第三方仲裁做為救濟的可能性，我相信署長從上任到現在，一直很致力想要解決整體制度結構面的問題、系統性的問題，這非常地困難，可是有沒有機會從一個一個案例來看相關的事情？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想的確在資格的部分，可能在體育紛爭仲裁方面……"],["陳委員培瑜：確實有很多的困境。"],["鄭署長世忠：接下來我們再來跟委員一起討論一下，的確在當時訂那個法的時候，針對比賽現場資格的問題，的確沒有辦法像國際仲裁組織可以及時去處理，這部分我們再來跟委員一起討論看看後面怎麼來修正。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們接下來一起努力喔！","最後一個題目，關於國家代表隊風紀的問題，相關的新聞我相信署長一定都有印象，到底國家隊集訓期間跟比賽期間，教練跟球員是不是都不可以喝酒，這部分我想先請署長說說看。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們大部分的國家隊隊員都非常自律。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，教練的部分呢？在集訓期間，教練可以喝酒嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：教練的部分，他們外出我們基本上不會做太多的限制，但是他們其實還是會自律，絕對不會有太誇張的行為出現。"],["陳委員培瑜：那你認為可不可以喝酒？"],["鄭署長世忠：基本上我覺得在集訓期間，在他自己私人的時間是他的事情，我們不管，但是回到營區內，他就要保持清醒，就要維持他該有的運作。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，維持清醒跟你剛剛一直不說死，到底可不可以喝酒，你說他有他個人的時間，可是我們來看下一頁，我們其實收到相關投訴，4月25號男足U20的教練團跟廠商喝酒，還拍照上傳到社群媒體，可是因為剛剛署長一直不肯說他到底可不可以喝酒，你只說他要保持清醒，我還是要說這件事情真的有觀感的問題，當然很多球員都非常自律，很多選手都已經很自律，可是教練這個狀態真的可以嗎？我剛剛問了三次，署長你都沒有說死，我想相關看法，我們都還需要討論，署長，你覺得呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：我想這個還是個案來處理啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：這個個案有沒有機會由體育署來組成調查，不要交給協會？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我回去會來處理，我來調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：不要只交給協會，可以嗎？由體育署來主責相關調查。"],["鄭署長世忠：好，我來看看到底怎麼回事，這部分目前我還不曉得。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們之後就直接跟體育署對於相關這個個案？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.383468750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.04159375,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.66846875,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.351593750000006,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.312843750000006,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.83284375000002,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.17909375000002,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.98909375000002,"end":221.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.95409375000003,"end":250.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.47284375,"end":253.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.79721875,"end":278.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.41784375000003,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.65346875,"end":329.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.10659375,"end":327.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.70096875,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.50596875,"end":446.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.80471875,"end":422.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.31909375000004,"end":425.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.51846875,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.40846875000005,"end":452.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.54284375000003,"end":451.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.23034375000003,"end":452.34846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.87,"text":"為了陳培瑜委員質詢謝謝主席那有請潘部長來潘部長謝謝委員早好部長早安在520以前我想應該這是最後一次跟您在質詢台上對話是謝謝那我想首先呢我要以家長的身份感謝部長這幾年的辛勞怎麼說因為在很多過往的經驗當中很多人都會說潘部長是最懂國教的部長"},{"start":28.408,"end":50.765,"text":"那也因為這樣所以在很多的國教議題上確實看到潘部長有非常非常多非常積極的作為例如說我從去年地補到現在在國教法特教法霸凌防制準則還有三聘辦法還有性平教育法其實都可以看得見部長對於國教的關懷那我很好奇部長您在這一段工作時間當中你自己覺得最有成就感的事情是什麼"},{"start":52.308,"end":60.976,"text":"謝謝委員剛才的鼓勵我想在這將近7年多我剛剛算過了到520是2645天因為其實在過去這段時間也正是面對我們非常多項的衝擊"},{"start":71.306,"end":75.168,"text":"108課綱是這些年一個比較重大的對於尤其剛才委員談到高中以下的這些課程改革要面對未來培養孩子的這個工程非常的龐雜那在討論審議的過程有加上我們有很多各界的參與包含學生代表"},{"start":87.995,"end":89.416,"text":"臺灣這些年因為中央地方政府還有學校大家一起努力"},{"start":117.578,"end":117.698,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":144.309,"end":144.469,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":160.486,"end":184.718,"text":"謝謝部長我自己的小孩確實也是在疫情那一年正要考試我印象非常深刻那一天我們考完第一天會考決定到底第二天能不能考還好教育部跟當時的蘇院長決定讓我們繼續考完所以我也印象非常深刻這是部長您剛剛說你覺得最有成就感的事情但是我們另外要問有沒有在您任內覺得很遺憾沒有辦法完成但是你會願意放在交接清單的前三名跟下一位部長溝通"},{"start":185.498,"end":202.154,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這些年我們雖然大家都很努力包含大院我們教育會的委員一直在關心學校這些校安霸凌等等包含一些歧視的問題因為我覺得"},{"start":203.435,"end":223.242,"text":"校園實在是一個支持孩子學習的地方那經常有一些個案影響的發生所以在這方面加上我覺得整個社會環境大幅的變化對孩子在心理情緒學習上確實有相當的影響那也有一些在校園自傷自殺的這些個案"},{"start":225.123,"end":253.305,"text":"這部分我一直覺得一定要再持續的努力那學生福刀法雖然教育部已經做相關草案的整理但是在大家意見的整合這方面看起來還需要再做努力學生福刀法我覺得務必一定要能夠來就目前我們所遭遇的面向來多加協助我想未來也要麻煩委員這邊我們大家再做努力雖然儘管像大學校院"},{"start":254.105,"end":254.205,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":282.765,"end":297.198,"text":"非常謝謝部長的回覆其實我還蠻驚訝部長提到學輔法因為我心裡面幫你放的也是學輔法因為我想說這件事情確實是很多而且最近也才發生桃園的霸凌事件我相信部長您都知道好 那這個部分就先謝謝部長的回應等一下我準備了一本繪本要送給部長我剛剛說你是最懂國教的部長"},{"start":302.623,"end":327.99,"text":"這本書呢在過去我跟部長討論很多議題的時候我發現你對國家階段的孩子真的有滿滿的耐心跟愛心這本書我自己非常喜歡這個作家今年也要到國際書展來書名就叫做飛一下休息一下再想一下我覺得很適合部長也許接下來休息但是休息完不要都沒有再往下做我相信部長在教育議題教育領域一定還有東西可以發揮那這個書等一下就送給部長好那接下來回到今天的主題來下一個謝謝"},{"start":330.27,"end":347.241,"text":"今天雖然在台的國際招生教育部的業務報告也提了非常多跟企業合作或是學校的設立可是我想問一下我們其實關心的是無國籍者是否可以來台就讀我們往下看下一頁去年某北部大學他們招收了一個無國籍藏人學生後來行政院跟教育部有介入相關的協調"},{"start":349.522,"end":367.775,"text":"後續也發函告訴北部的大學不要再收相關的學生可是今年這個學校又再次收到來自西藏學生的申請四名藏人學生再被校方與教育部指導下以無國籍為由拒絕相關申請但是我想部長您一定非常熟悉相關議題我就不再多說下一頁我們有沒有機會請部長來想一想或是跟下一屆的部長再交接這個議題修正外國學生來臺就學辦法"},{"start":374.299,"end":391.694,"text":"其實在無國籍學生就讀國民小學及國民中學辦法在依照大學法25條另訂關於無國籍學生來臺就學辦法跟要點我覺得這個事情我們在看國際人才的時候其實很多人都知道很多藏人學生是來自於印度對那印度印度"},{"start":392.014,"end":415.542,"text":"那如果我們在很多南向政策上必須要跟這些國家有接軌的經驗那也許這些學生就是我們非常好的新南向的好幫手那相關辦法修訂之前有沒有機會藉由過去的相關經驗面對無國籍藏人的求學申請服以達賴喇嘛基金會作為保證機構的配套這個部分我想也許今天部長來不及回應但是後續是不是可以跟新部長有交接的機會"},{"start":416.582,"end":435.116,"text":"是,謝謝委員,因為這些年,就像委員提到的,我們在國中小其實也有突破,大院這邊也支持,那過往香港政治比較危急的階段,其實也有一個比較具有彈性的措施,對港生要來。我想這部分我會請國際事這邊持續來跟外交部就這方面的議題,因為確實已經也陸陸續續這種情況了。"},{"start":442.261,"end":442.682,"text":"這跨部會我相信應該可以找到應應的措施"}]}},{"id":"152400","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152400","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17342f7bd1e3a3167018ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d815785db215f59bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:18:59 - 09:20:31","影片長度":"00:01:32","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":92,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:20:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:18:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時21分）有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好。今天是我跟您的最後一次詢答，我很珍惜這個機會，不過請部長見諒，我今天還是要盡我的監督責任，不能打折扣。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們過去常常看到許多重工業化或化學工業的工廠發生爆炸大火，因為消防救火這一類的風險比其他的火災還要高，所以造成很多消防弟兄因為這類的救火而死傷嚴重，因此，比起事後的救災，事前的災害防範是不是更為重要？部長您同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是事前的災害防範。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：國營事業諸如台電跟中油也常常發生公安事件，從這個圖上可知，前年台電中部火力發電廠發生了煤倉火災，還有中油大林煉油廠發生爆炸大火，如果能夠做好事前的防範，是不是可以把事故範圍縮小？部長是不是也同意國營事業應該要帶頭做好事前的風險管控，國營事業要帶頭來做，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我有一些資料要跟部長分享，對於勞動部職安署在接獲檢舉之後，向台電索取攸關公安事件風險管控的防爆電器設備採購資料，進行相關的調查，我是非常的肯定，就是有去做了索取這個動作，但是部長您認為職安署同仁在進行調查的時候有盡心嗎？您有信心嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們職安署的同仁都非常的認真、盡責，所以我相信他們一定會就相關案子努力把它釐清。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，對於職安署負責防爆電器設備的同仁是否有依法進行調查，我這裡要打一個問號，接著我會說明給部長聽，最後再請部長回答。","請看下一張，部長，我接下來秀的這個資料，都是廠商進行的防爆電器設備型式檢定，在合格後，廠商要向職安署所謂的機械設備器具安全資訊網登錄，才能夠取得TS安全標章的認證徽章，這一張圖片是申芳公司的同一個產品，就是防爆密封接頭，一樣是由ISTI核發的型式檢定合格證明書，這沒有問題，這是最新的，從2023年開始，效期是到2027年，請部長看一下，它的型式就有四個，EYS、EYM、EYD、EYDM等四個型式，請部長稍微記一下，目前它是有這四個型式，部長，簡報上這兩張就是申芳連同前面ISTI檢定合格證明所傳到職安署網站上的產品型錄，我們看到也是一致的，就是EYS、EYM、EYD、EYDM，而且上面有一個比較弱色的紅色框框，裡面有寫到材質，材質是球墨鑄鐵，請部長稍微記得一下我的這個資訊。","好，下一張，我們時間往前推，這一份也是一樣由ISTI發給申芳公司的防爆密封接頭的型式檢定合格證明書，有效期限是2017年到2020年，裡面有三個型式EYS、EYM、EYD。","部長，現在就是這個狀況，也就是說，2023年7月10號ISTI檢定合格書上面才說申芳公司的產品型號多了EYDM，我想署長會很清楚，就是之前核准了三個型態，只有到2023年才多了一個EYDM，2020年之前並沒有，部長，到目前為止，我的資訊是這樣，請問OK嗎？"],["許部長銘春：OK。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們再繼續看簡報上的資訊，這兩張是申芳連同前次ISTI檢定合格證明書傳到職安署這個網站上的產品型錄，你可以看到上面有個材質是寫可鍛鑄鐵，部長，也請你記得，這個時候是寫可鍛鑄鐵，這個期限是2017年到2020年，重點來了，明明看到ISTI在2017年所核准的型式檢定只有三種EYS、EYM、EYD，但另外一邊的型錄卻多了一個EYDM型號。請問部長，為何會發生這種廠商登錄在職安署的網站上，它的檢定合格證明書跟型錄會有不一樣的狀況，過去職安署都不用去核對上傳的資料嗎？還是申芳上傳資料有問題？還是ISTI檢驗有問題？職安署是否要進行一個調查？部長，這不是小事，這個是偽造文書！"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個看起來就是它上傳的多了一個當時沒有……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，而且也多了一個球墨鑄鐵。"],["許部長銘春：沒有審查、審定的項目……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個最嚴重的是偽造文書。"],["許部長銘春：我待會是不是可以請署長說明一下？因為這個涉及到個案，他們應該有做瞭解。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們回到職安署跟台電大林電廠調取的資料，這個動作非常好，事實上，這是職安署拿到的資料，在2019年8月4號，大林電廠採購案裡面，我們可以看到ISTI在2017年核發的型式檢驗合格證明書，這個是合格證明書，我們都調出來看了。","接下來畫面上這兩張一樣是在大林電廠提供給職安署的資料，2019年的採購案，當時申芳公司拿到ISTI核發的型式檢定合格證明書，根本就沒有球墨鑄鐵，也沒有EYDM的型號，因為那是在2023年之後，我剛剛已經秀資料給部長看了，ISTI核發的證書跟登錄型號才有的內容。","好，請問為什麼會穿越時空出現在大林電廠提供給職安署的2019年的採購資料裡面？這當中一定有人作假，是申芳？是ISTI？是台電？還是承包商？但是職安署負責的同仁在跟台電拿到這份資料以後並沒有看出來，這太離譜了吧！部長，所以我們會懷疑這是沒有核對還是護航？還是有人造假？部長或是署長可以做一個說明嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我請署長說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員回報，第一個，國營企業的安全衛生，我們是用高標準來做檢查，所以我們勞動部有跟各部會成立一個跨部會的減災平臺，針對各種重大案件，我們會做檢討，剛才那個案子是火災爆炸，但是沒有人員傷亡，所以不是職災案件；第二個，有關這個案子，我之前曾親自到委員辦公室報告，這個案子我們初查的結果，是申芳在申報這個系統的時候，多增加一個沒有經過TS認證的型式，我發現這涉及違反我們TS的制度，所以我們是移送給地檢署來偵辦。至於這個案子，台電後來沒有給這個公司來採用，所以它沒有進入到我們市場，依照我們職安法第七條規定，因為還沒有涉及到使用端，所以我們是先移送地檢署偵辦，就偽造文書的部分，請檢察官再做一個瞭解……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，我強調的是，這個都是我們從網站查出來的資料……"],["鄒署長子廉：所以我們有一直努力在進行，而且委員的資料都是我們職安署跟您提供、跟您報告的，我們會堅決主張，我們同仁是依照法律來辦事情，如果我們同仁有任何的疑慮，我們會處理……"],["陳委員昭姿：上傳的資料要核對啊！這是攸關風險的管控。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。","部長，剛剛大家都提到警消組工會，這已經吵了10年，在這裡讓大家簡單回顧一下，從第8屆就有人開始提案，我在此再次感謝王育敏召委對警消同仁的關心，在這個禮拜能夠安排這個議程出來。","下一張，因為去年9月明揚大火造成4名消防兄弟殉職，所以他們在凱道夜宿爭取組工會，結果換來的不是工會，而是所謂的特種協會，到現在為止，我聽了部長的報告，好像也只願意修改公務人員協會法，但是這兩個的立場差很大，協會和工會的保障差很大，因為他們沒有團結權，也沒有團體的協約權，更沒有爭議權，我們是不是想辦法讓基層警消跟政府有平等談話的權利？","我們再來看看，其實他們並不是洪水猛獸，上次為什麼一直退回來，不管執政黨、在野黨提的，都退回程序委員會，代表連執政黨都沒有辦法接受、都不買單！我們直接看最後的風險資料──消防員死亡的統計，這些因公殉職、因公死亡的，每一條都是人命，背後都是一個破碎的家庭！請部長能夠瞭解警消工作的風險，讓基層警消能夠有與政府公平談判的權利。請部長放心，組工會的目的不是罷工，我覺得不要用這個理由來阻擋。最後我要向部長報告，韓國做到了！他們爭取了十五年，從2006年到2021年，他們終於組成了工會，所以我們不要直聘輸韓國，連這件事也都輸給韓國！好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個案子不只涉及勞動部，也涉及跨部、跨院。所以就這問題來說，我們認同他們有團結權，包括結社、協商，這些我們都應該要保障。只是因為他們身分的問題，以致無法讓勞動部一個部會就可以做決定，必須經過跨院的協商……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們努力，因為他們也努力了很多年！時間已經到了，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：接下來我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.89034375000001,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.67846875000001,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.78034375,"end":92.67471875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.693,"end":15.883,"text":"謝謝主席本席請代表民眾黨黨團針對工會法修正草案做提案說明那現行公務人員的這個協會制度僅賦予公務人員跟這個政府進行健康勤務跟設備等事項的權限但是該協商不能夠締結團體的協約缺乏勞動"},{"start":20.586,"end":36.878,"text":"所組織公會是完整的勞動三權。按照《公民與政治權利國際公約》及《經濟社會文化權利國際公約施行法》第八條有明確的規範,仍然由全組促進及保障其經濟及社會利益而組織公會及加入其自身選擇之公會。"},{"start":37.859,"end":62.339,"text":"那目前先進國家包括德國、美國、意大利等都有警察及消防員組成之公會組織。那為了落實我國憲法保障人民結社的自由以及經社文公約施行法則立法旨意並考量我國行政機關對施行之影響應循序漸進開放公務員組成公會原提案修正公會法第四條及第六條明定警察及消防員得組織及加入公會並考量"},{"start":62.959,"end":71.961,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16期社會福利及工會法第16"}]}},{"id":"152399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734cd7a50ba569a1f29ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4dd6eac9628da926205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:10:15 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09:12:04","影片長度":"00:01:49","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":109,"end_time":"2024-05-13T09:12:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:10:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":42.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.34909375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.72909375,"end":106.93409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.741,"end":21.945,"text":"各位委員主席各位官員大家好今天我們要審議工會法的修正草案最重要的目的就是要回應長久以來錦囂夥伴追求能夠組工會爭取合理勞動權益的訴求在憲法第14條和聯合國公民與政治權利國際公約第22條中"},{"start":29.807,"end":47.644,"text":"我們每一個人的集會及結社自由都受到保障也應該有權利透過組織工會協商罷工來爭取權益然而到現在法律仍然禁止錦霄人員擁有這些權利錦霄人員站在維持社會治安救難第一線這些人為我們擋風擋雨擋火擋壞人擋子彈"},{"start":51.528,"end":68.06,"text":"但過去卻往往只因為一句性質不適合工法上職務關係就讓他們連爭取勞動權益條件待遇的基本權利都沒有錦霄英雄面對的不僅僅是火災和犯罪還要面臨制度上的束縛和不公"},{"start":69.2,"end":87.231,"text":"這幾年許多錦囂同仁在執行勤務當中呢英勇的殉職也有人因為職場的壓力選擇自強離開我們這對他們的家庭社會都是不可磨滅的損失每一次新聞報導的哀調就提醒了我們這是制度上的漏洞"},{"start":87.751,"end":105.218,"text":"他們為了社會的安定和和諧付出了生命卻仍然缺乏足夠的權益保護因此本席提出工會法的修正草案是希望確保警消人員有籌組及加入工會的權利這不僅僅是對他們付出的認可也會是我們社會進步的標誌謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152468","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734931acaf148bf06c9ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4db606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:46:15 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12:57:07","影片長度":"00:10:52","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":652,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:57:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:46:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1237,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：請蔡署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。在今天的討論事項中，有一個中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法的審查，該法第十三條我仔細研讀之後，發現跟第十二條似乎有衝突，所以在這邊想要請教一下。我們先看第十二條，條文明定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇，特別是考績跟待遇，請問，考績是不是就是考核績效的意思？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實第十二條規定，主要是不能用年齡做一些歧視待遇。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！我問你考績啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：考績基本上就是考核跟一些績效。"],["陳委員瑩：考核績效嘛！好，那我們再來看第十三條條文，這個條文排除第十二條規定，也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況，這裡面提到基於績效的薪資給付，可以有差別待遇，所以署長你看到問題了沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，跟委員報告，這個確實在整個執行面上，因為這個條文主要是調平司……"],["陳委員瑩：蛤？"],["蔡署長孟良：是調平司在負責。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你有看到問題嗎？你有沒有看到問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：有、有。"],["陳委員瑩：矛盾嘛！"],["蔡署長孟良：這兩個條文之間在實務執行上，可能會產生一些相關連。"],["陳委員瑩：相關？文字就是相關，但就是矛盾啊！我們再看第十七條規定，雇主對於求職或中高齡勞工，有年齡上差別待遇的事實，應該要負起賠償責任，請問，實務上要如何賠償？賠多少有標準嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：跟委員報告，這個部分就要從民事訴訟這邊來爭取主張。"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果向地方政府提出申訴，且歧視成立，申訴者可以得到什麼、獲得什麼樣的補償損失？"],["黃司長維琛：向地方縣市政府提出申訴之後，如果有屬於就業歧視認定的部分，那麼雇主就會被處罰30萬到150萬，如果因此而有相關損失，民事訴訟進行時就會看他損失的部分。"],["陳委員瑩：政府收了罰鍰以後，這個案子就結案了嗎？就像勞動條件的檢查，雇主沒有付加班費，我們也處理很多案件，它被處罰之後，已經繳了罰鍰之後還是不用付加班費，所以倒楣的還是勞工，那個罰也是看不到的，我們只會收罰款，也不會好好運用罰款，讓該收到費用的人收到這個費用，那個精神是這樣子，對不對？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，處罰歸處罰，另外如果他有一些之前解僱的部分的話，我們的訴訟扶助會協助勞工去民事訴訟把他的權益爭取回來。"],["陳委員瑩：這也是要花很長的時間。再來，第十七條規定的賠償是不是要勞工走司法管道去取得損失賠償，實務上真的是因為年齡造成差別待遇的損失，而向法院提出訴訟的案例，你們總共統計有多少案？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分我們手邊現在沒有資料。"],["陳委員瑩：你印象當中有很多嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：在歧視的部分，年齡歧視的案子沒有那麼多，性別歧視大概是目前最多的。"],["陳委員瑩：上次我們有討論過，如果你沒有統計資料，假如不多的話，訂定應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡？你們也是不清楚啊！所以我今天問的大概都是提醒你們，我們再來看看穩定就業措施方面，過去明師出高徒的計畫，你們覺得執行成效如何？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，當初執行明師高徒計畫本來是希望透過師徒制，不過它其實有產生一些問題，尤其在勞工部分的權益保障不夠，所以那個計畫當初就暫停了，我們就導入到青年就業。"],["陳委員瑩：現在還有沒有輔導和獎勵，就是統一工作、分工合作的措施？"],["蔡署長孟良：有，當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作，像這個專法第二十條和第三十條都有類似相關法令的機制。"],["陳委員瑩：所以等於你們有替代方案？"],["蔡署長孟良：有。"],["陳委員瑩：這個替代方案會不會像上次的明師出高徒計畫，其實變相產生更多的廉價勞工出來？"],["蔡署長孟良：像我們在第二十條有規定絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件，這是第一個。第二個，我們在執行過程當中，一切規定都會依照相關的法令做相關的考核。"],["陳委員瑩：你現在講的是聘用中高齡者……"],["蔡署長孟良：對，就是不能低於……"],["陳委員瑩：不能低於嘛！我剛剛點出過去的明師出高徒計畫有些問題，這些問題就是因為師徒制的關係，所以產生更多的廉價勞工出來，你的替代方案有沒有重蹈覆轍，會不會產生更多的廉價勞工？這是我剛剛問你的問題。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員提醒，我們現在在計劃的設計都會注意，絕對不能讓勞工的權益受到影響。"],["陳委員瑩：你們新的替代方案，我後續再來好好研究瞭解一下。再來，第十九條有提到雇主對於有工作障礙者要提供職務再設計，還有輔具，對於有長照需求者要轉介適當的長照服務資源，請問法案通過這幾年你們的實施成效如何？"],["蔡署長孟良：關於職務再設計，我們其實目前有相關的處理，像我們在去年就透過這樣的機制大概協助了將近550家事業單位，有兩千兩百多人實施職務再設計的協助。"],["陳委員瑩：這是多久的案件統計？"],["蔡署長孟良：去年一整年。"],["陳委員瑩：去年一整年有五百多件，你們總共大概執行多少預算？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們職務再設計的預算是兩千多萬。"],["陳委員瑩：兩千多萬是輔具的部分？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，就是一些相關的輔具和流程改善，以及其他相關的職場協助措施。"],["陳委員瑩：這個部分是你們自己辦，還是委外辦理？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們都是透過地方政府的協助，我們有職災中心來協助。"],["陳委員瑩：他們也是委外嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：有些地方政府可能會透過專業，也有可能透過地方政府自行來規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你覺得這個部分，你們後來這樣辦理的成效如何？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們是覺得還有努力的空間，如果以目前的狀況，尤其是在中高齡有一些比較需要協助，我們覺得還有機會擴大。"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來還會再繼續吧？"],["蔡署長孟良：是！"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。整部高齡者的就業促進專法，首要的重點是要避免第十二條第一項的差別待遇，剛剛有特別提到罰則是30萬到150萬；其次是第十六條受僱中的高齡勞工提出申訴、不利處分，罰款剛有提到是20、30萬左右，當然這是這次本席質詢的重點，其餘大多是比較鼓勵性質。但雇主要不要配合，因為沒有罰則也很難要求，除了我剛剛講的比較具體以外，其中涉及政府應該有的作為，我想你們應該負起示範的責任。這部法案當時也是有一點趕工，雖然是趕出來的，但是我相信部長也非常地重視，當然在內部有相當地討論，才會在許部長任內通過這樣的法案，也希望勞動部未來能夠努力地推動執行，因為我們現在整個社會高齡化已經是無可避免了，兩位署長應該也都是正當壯年啦！有問題嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有，我是壯世代。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想在座的每一位我們都會漸漸老去，所以千萬不要辜負這部很重要的法案通過，以及其背後代表的意義，謝謝。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":2.8997187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.82721875,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.93096875,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.26409375,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.346593750000004,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.463468750000004,"end":41.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.99909375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.34846875,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.40221875,"end":60.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.30846875,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":61.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.367218750000006,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.37534375,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.60284375,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.46909375,"end":93.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.24846875,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.00346875000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.37034375,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.95659375000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.42034375,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.12909375000001,"end":101.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.07409375,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.15409375,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.33534375,"end":110.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.61284375000001,"end":111.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.18221875,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.86971875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.48096875,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.79284375,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.87659375000001,"end":124.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.17596875000001,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.50909375,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.75909375,"end":147.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.82221875000002,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.88846875000002,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.34784375,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.57909375,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.13159375,"end":167.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.22409375,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.77221875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.00659375,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.50971875000002,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.23096875000002,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.92659375000002,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.26784375000003,"end":218.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.79846875,"end":219.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.84471875000003,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.92909375000002,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.05784375000002,"end":235.43721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.12909375,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.66034375,"end":239.65596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.78659375,"end":254.80971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.48471875,"end":257.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.47159375,"end":258.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.96096875,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.98596875000004,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.83284375,"end":278.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.58596875,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.34909375,"end":289.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.12471875,"end":300.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️"},{"start":184.935,"end":207.341,"text":"政府提出申訴之後,如果是屬於就業歧視的話認定,那這個部分僱主會被處罰。那處罰30萬到150萬。那如果他是有相關的損失的部分,民事訴訟進行的話,那看他的損失的部分。好,那再來喔,還是說政府收了罰款以後,"},{"start":208.956,"end":226.288,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會"},{"start":238.643,"end":258.08,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":261.249,"end":278.064,"text":"第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料"},{"start":287.215,"end":313.353,"text":"議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就上次我們有討論過,那個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是"},{"start":314.292,"end":315.474,"text":"μη施出高徒計劃執行成效如何?"},{"start":328.615,"end":350.538,"text":"民事高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制,不過他其實有產生一些問題,尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠,所以那個計畫當初就暫停,我們就導入到青年就業。現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵,就是同一工作、分工合作的措施?"},{"start":351.078,"end":379.039,"text":"有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的提示。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事出高徒的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?"},{"start":379.864,"end":409.324,"text":"爾根文包像我們在二十條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說又過去這個明示出高徒的計劃你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有"},{"start":410.626,"end":420.927,"text":"除此之外,會不會產生更多的廉價勞工?這是我剛剛問你的問題。好,謝謝委員提醒。我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響。"},{"start":421.749,"end":447.567,"text":"好,那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務再設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何?"},{"start":449.352,"end":475.149,"text":"職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算"},{"start":477.423,"end":497.237,"text":"則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些資產協助措施"},{"start":498.576,"end":499.817,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〔一〕"},{"start":517.261,"end":533.867,"text":"好那你覺得說這個部分你們他這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間啦因為事實上如果有目前尤其是在中高齡齁一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是"},{"start":535.247,"end":556.118,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":556.198,"end":573.569,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":574.129,"end":594.124,"text":"僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府的應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。所以這部法案當時也是有一點趕工,趕出來。"},{"start":596.326,"end":600.589,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 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12:45:31","影片長度":"00:05:44","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":344,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:45:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:39:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1191,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時39分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你是任內最後一次到委員會來質詢，肯定你擔任勞動部長期間對勞動權益、對勞工權益、對勞動環境改善所做的貢獻，您是一個稱職、有為有守的部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：給您高度的肯定。您任內總共幾年？"],["許部長銘春：到現在六年兩個多月。"],["邱委員志偉：你北漂了六年兩個月？"],["許部長銘春：對，到519應該是2,275天。"],["邱委員志偉：這六年擔任部長的過程中，讓你最有成就感、最自豪的一件事是什麼？還是很多事情都讓你覺得很自豪？"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦！"],["邱委員志偉：講一件就好了。"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得對我來講是災保法，即勞工職業災害保險及保護法。"],["邱委員志偉：這不簡單。"],["許部長銘春：這件事情是從我2018年上任以來，我就覺得這個法倡議了好久，對勞工那麼重要……"],["邱委員志偉：對，要有耐心、要有魄力。"],["許部長銘春：然後我們努力把它完成，而且謝謝衛環委員會的支持，我們用不到一個月就把它完成立法，真的是……"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這真的不簡單。那有最令人覺得沮喪或遺憾的一件事情嗎？說一件，就是最遺憾的、最鬱悶的，說一件就好了。這邊酸甜苦辣都有，你不可能只有成就感或者滿意，一定會有讓你覺得鬱悶的地方。"],["許部長銘春：鬱悶是還好，沒有特別鬱悶啦！因為勞動部的工作其實滿多的，很多政策，包括大家關心勞保年改、缺工……"],["邱委員志偉：母親節剛過了，就像媽媽一樣要能夠忍耐，為了國家、為了家庭犧牲，有苦也放在心裡面。"],["許部長銘春：這沒關係，本來當公僕，這都沒什麼，個人的事情都是小事，主要是說……"],["邱委員志偉：事情做好就好了。"],["許部長銘春：對，事情做好比較重要。"],["邱委員志偉：是，辛苦了！"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：請教勞動參與率的問題，怎麼樣能夠讓高齡的勞動參與率提高？我們的年齡結構跟日本、韓國差不多，我們不管是男性、女性的平均壽命也跟日本、韓國差不多，但為什麼一樣是這種年齡結構，日本跟韓國的勞動參與率在45歲到65歲以上都比我們高出很多？特別是65歲以上中高齡的部分，中高齡部分是我們今天討論的主題，你看，我們只有9.2%……"],["許部長銘春：對，就是高齡65歲以上……"],["邱委員志偉：韓國是我們的四倍，日本差不多是我們的三倍左右，為什麼？因為他是透過薪資保障、延後退休年齡、彈性工作等很多措施才會讓他的……","很多政策成果不會從天上掉下來，一定要有好的政策規劃去執行之後，政策成果才會浮現嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以韓國、日本的作法值得我們借鏡，那我們做了哪些？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們現在也是在鼓勵高齡者，像65歲以上的，雖然他退休了，但我們都希望他能夠重返職場。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，不能只有鼓勵而已，要有一些誘因。"],["許部長銘春：有，我們有一些誘因，譬如說續留職場的，我們針對雇主、勞工都有一些優惠、獎勵……"],["邱委員志偉：可能不夠，你們已經執行一段時間了，但還是只有日本的四分之一、南韓的五分之一。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果勞動部把誘因加強，然後讓這些高齡者，我現在都說他們是壯世代，這個心態讓他認為他可以繼續為這個社會貢獻，主要勞工端是勞動部要去努力的，至於雇主端，我覺得可能對高齡的進用也要抱持開放的態度。"],["邱委員志偉：所以雇主端，你要怎麼樣去進用中高齡的就業者？你必須要提高足夠的誘因，這要跨部會去協調，很多是財政部或者經濟部或相關單位，但主要還是你勞動部要負責。所以你要從這個政策協調高度看要怎麼樣協調各部會能夠提出有效的對策，來讓勞動參與率在5年之內達到日本水準，在10年之內達到韓國水準。"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["邱委員志偉：要有這個目標。"],["許部長銘春：有，我們有這個目標，現在是透過三年計畫來進行滾動檢討，希望把整個勞參率、高齡者勞參率能夠提高。"],["邱委員志偉：要有效果啦！政策推動出來一定要有效率，知道問題之後，要以最快速度提出有效對策，這是效率；而這個政策要有效果可以從數字上呈現出來，這是效果，所以雙效很重要，效率跟效果是任何政務官都要放在心裡面的。"],["許部長銘春：對、對、對。"],["邱委員志偉：還是謝謝部長過去六年來對勞工權益、勞動環境改善的貢獻，祝你一切都好。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員，感謝！"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚菌、林楚菌、林楚菌委員不在。","請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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tatto 519應該是兩千兩百七十六年中最讓你擔任部長最讓你覺得最有成就感最自豪的一件事我覺得很多事情都讓你覺得很自豪沒有講一件就好了講一件我是感覺我覺得"},{"start":65.174,"end":93.969,"text":"對我來講是災保法老公職業災害保險保護法這件事情是從我2018上任我就覺得這個法倡議了好久那對老公那麼重要然後我們努力把它完成而且謝謝委員會的支持未還委員我們在不到不到一個月把它完成立法真的是所以令你覺得沮喪或者遺憾的一件事情"},{"start":96.123,"end":99.96,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":100.802,"end":102.083,"text":"兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":130.302,"end":130.962,"text":"委員陳菁徽"},{"start":151.008,"end":164.965,"text":"請教你勞動參與率的問題。怎麼樣高齡的勞動參與率能夠提高?我們的黎明結構跟日本、韓國差不多。我們平均,不管是男性女性的平均壽命也跟日本、韓國差不多。"},{"start":165.546,"end":165.726,"text":"〈一〉國民黨團擬具"},{"start":183.601,"end":184.881,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":214.032,"end":216.92,"text":"對,包委員其實我們現在也是在鼓勵這個高齡者"},{"start":220.431,"end":227.999,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":244.355,"end":258.512,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":263.698,"end":286.548,"text":"除了勞工端要去,勞動部要去,我覺得僱主端這個可能對於高齡的禁用也要抱持開放的態度。所以僱主端你要怎麼樣去禁用中高齡的就業者,你必須要提高足夠的優惠,你這個跨部會去協調,很多是財政部或者經濟部或者相關單位,但是主要還是你勞動部要負責。所以你要從這個政策協調的高度去怎麼樣協調各部會能夠"},{"start":289.109,"end":300.676,"text":"除有效的對策來讓勞動參與率在五年之內達到日本水準,在十年之內達到韓國的水準。要有這個目標。我們有這個目標。我們現在透過三年的計畫來去把這個滾動檢討,希望把這個整個勞參率,高齡者勞參率的過程。要有好過。是。"},{"start":310.962,"end":311.582,"text":" lapt�����"},{"start":340.509,"end":340.61,"text":"謝謝委員 當下"}]}},{"id":"152466","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173472fad03d0d17ab17ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d7928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:32:20 - 12:39:42","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":442,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:39:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:32:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1169,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時32分）謝謝，我可不可以請消防署署長？我順便也先請一下銓敘部的朱次長。"],["主席：請蕭署長及朱次長。"],["李委員彥秀：署長，我想今天一整個早上質詢了這麼久，誠如剛才幾位委員所提出來的，對於消防局的同仁、消防署底下所有的全國同仁組工會，你們是不支持的，你們是傾向處理公務人員協會法，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，目前是用公務人員協會法的方式來處理。"],["李委員彥秀：對，如果不是我們召委今天排這個議案，我不知道這個案子還要拖多久！消防署底下的同仁過去這麼多年來幾次大火的殉職，我相信這是全國人的傷痛，也是消防弟兄看到每一次事件過後，都是今天公祭，政府明天就忘記。如果成立公務人員協會真的這麼重要，我覺得就不會拖到今天，上一屆的立法院早就已經可以處理完了，但是為什麼到今天你們公務人員協會法的修正還沒有出來？你今天還在跟我講你們不支持消防同仁組工會，你們還是希望在協會法裡面來做處理，這是大家所憤怒的地方！","我相信你非常清楚，現在所有消防同仁想要申請調動的狀況其實非常非常頻繁，勤務最多的六都，大家都想調到鄉下地方或是城鄉差距比較大的地方，我想你非常清楚，原因在哪裡？你也非常清楚，所以我覺得你如果真的有把所有消防局每一個弟兄都當成你的家人，這個事情就不會拖到今天，如果召委沒有排這個議題，我都不知道還要拖到什麼時候！所以無論是我們消防局同仁的結社權、協商權，未來怎麼去處理大家所關注的這幾塊，我希望儘速地在一個月之內你可以告訴我們立法院有具體的作法，否則後續就按照我們立法院的權力來處理，好不好？署長，這是我的建議，你可以請回，因為我今天還有其他的議題要請問朱政次。","朱次長，我接下來就要跟你討論派用人員遷調彈性的問題，大家都知道，在民國五、六十年代的時候，國家為了推動國家的重大建設，行政機關可以用遴選的方式去找專業人力，這是當時我們派用人員原來的理由，是我們找專業的人、我們任用專業的人，他不需要經過國家的考試。但是派用人員派用條例已經在104年廢止，並給予9年的落日期間，也就是在今年6月19號落日之後，所有的派用人員就必須留在他原任的地方或等到他離職為止，不能再增加任何派用人員，他最終如果還留在職位上，只能平調，這個是派用條例原來的精神。","我舉一個例子來說，臺北市捷運局目前派用的人員有368人，占整體編制的61.95%，將近62%，一級主管有55%，也就是說，我以臺北市捷運局為例，它所有的任用幾乎變成是一灘死水，有55%的人是一級主管，也就是新的人想進來捷運局，他未來升遷的機會恐怕非常困難。全國在做軌道建設，在任用捷運局人員時，常常會跟臺北市政府捷運局要人，其實我們本來的原意是不希望這些派用人員去影響到全國其他的機關，但是在臺北市捷運局來說，它就是一灘死水，念捷運專業的人想進來，如果進臺北市的捷運局，他未來可能也升不上去，因為55%的人都是在一級主管，而且他們只能平調，永遠是留在這邊。所以針對臺北市政府捷運局的這些問題，朱政次有沒有什麼樣解決的方案可以處理？因為畢竟軌道建設在臺灣東西向未來的發展，現在中南部也在做軌道建設，這些問題有沒有什麼比較具體可以處理的方向跟方式？"],["朱次長楠賢：報告李委員，現在因為這個法規定得蠻硬的……"],["李委員彥秀：法不是不可以調整啦！"],["朱次長楠賢：他是在同職稱同官等內，現在……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，因為它的人不多，全國就這三百多個人，但是我覺得捷運的專業其實非常重要，我們也希望捷運局未來可以任用更多年輕的人才，讓他未來的升遷是有機會的，否則未來全國的軌道建設就只剩下這一批資深的人，我們沒有人才不斷的活化進用。"],["朱次長楠賢：是，我們為了讓這有點彈性，已經報到考試院去了，就是說這些人不一定要留在原機關，可以留在他的所屬機關，讓這個水庫變大一點，他可以在所屬機關同職稱調動。"],["李委員彥秀：朱政次，我只提醒你一句，因為他要到其他機關，其他機關並不一定要他。"],["朱次長楠賢：他們相關的機關可以調動，但是不能動職稱。"],["李委員彥秀：他只能平調，你還是沒有解決他只能平調，他沒有升遷的機會。"],["朱次長楠賢：他可以移到其他機關……"],["李委員彥秀：你還是沒聽懂，它的一級主管占了55%，也就是其他年輕人倒不如到其他單位，他未來還有升遷的機會，他在這個單位奮鬥十年、十五年、二十年，他還有升遷的機會，但是在捷運局裡面他就沒有升遷機會，因為一級主管占了將近55%，而且他只能平調，這是現在任用條例上面的問題。所以我最後具體要求，兩個禮拜之內對於這個問題提出一個討論解決的方案出來，派用的條例當時是不希望他到處跑，影響到別人升遷的權益，但是它卻卡死了臺北市政府捷運局用人更有彈性，能夠吸引更多年輕、有能力的專業人才進入軌道建設的這個領域裡面，所以這個問題怎麼處理，可不可以在兩個禮拜以內給我一個檢討的方案？你瞭解我意思嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：可以，瞭解。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。接下來請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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報告李委員現在就是我們在因為這個法的規定蠻硬的啦"},{"start":318.164,"end":319.565,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":333.579,"end":333.639,"text":"​​擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":348.932,"end":355.118,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":372.441,"end":373.723,"text":"獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎"},{"start":387.779,"end":389.019,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":409.701,"end":433.467,"text":"議員陳菁徽提出一個討論解決的方案出來。議員陳菁徽提出一個討論解決的方案出來。議員陳菁徽提出一個討論解決的方案出來。派用的條例當時是不希望他到處去用的、到處跑然後影響到別人的權益、身陷權益。但是他卻卡死了在台北市政府捷運局他用人、更有彈性、能夠吸引更多年輕人、有能力的專業進入軌道建設的這個領域裡面。進入軌道建設的這個領域裡面。進入軌道建設的這個領域裡面。所以這個問題怎麼處理可不可以在兩個禮拜以內給我一個檢討的方案。"},{"start":437.386,"end":437.486,"text":"兼職委員長"}]}},{"id":"152465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173402ad0d711f36636eba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d857e8946a4dbda255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:29:54 - 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這幾年委員知道嗎中小學的操場我自己這幾年整修了將近一千所"},{"start":262.981,"end":263.021,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":281.206,"end":309.315,"text":"這些我自己在國教上也知道地方政府財政的限制所以跟行政院額外爭取的很多都是認為如果按照他們的資源可能再多少年都做不來連那個廁所啦那個孩子最在意的但是現在你沒有回答我的問題我時間已經沒有了就是你到底怎麼給的嗎沒有當他們你說你有一些要點對不對對啊那所以非常真的非常困難非常缺乏的都爭取得到嗎"},{"start":309.935,"end":318.219,"text":"委員如果以操場損壞程度越嚴重的只要限時列出來一定最優先活動中心這個議題我要比較嚴肅的說因為都是非常大的量體在整個補助上教育部不是以那個為優先"},{"start":326.796,"end":334.803,"text":"那資訊教學設備跟相關的一些運動設備呢這些當然都是優先方向目的都優先方向所以希望能夠重視地方的聲音那最後你說了斑斑有冷氣可是你們民進黨漲電價讓斑斑不敢開冷氣這一塊"},{"start":348.354,"end":350.895,"text":"這次的電費是我們一般性補償的指定項目如果電費有所調漲這個額度也會增加它只要在我們上課時間所規範的這個電費不會由家長學生出"},{"start":369.94,"end":370.2,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"152464","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152464","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17346740d7888fa13a29ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d45aab92cddae9f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"12:26:12 - 12:32:16","影片長度":"00:06:04","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":364,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:32:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:26:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1142,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時26分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家午安。是不是有請部長跟消防署署長？謝謝。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["許部長銘春：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：好。感謝部長跟署長，因為今天有關於組工會的事情，可能會麻煩到署長跟部長來回應，所以請兩位一起上臺，首先要請教署長，有關於統計，最近10年有43位消防人員殉職，尤其大家非常清楚屏東明揚大火事件，造成4位消防員殉職，大家都歷歷在目，現在總共有10死111人受傷的悲劇，請問署長，在明揚大火之後，消防署做了哪些努力？尤其那天，我記得在很多抗議的訴求裡面，第一個就是要精進化學雲的部分，尤其是化學物全流程管理的這個部分，請問一下署長這邊有沒有精進哪些部分，然後跟各部會的討論，目前的狀況是如何？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員垂詢，針對化學雲的部分，在明揚大火以後，院的政務委員事實上有組成專案會議，怎麼樣把化學雲裡面的資訊充分分享，當然對於業者的提供、提報，在工廠管理輔導法裡面已經列入修法的內容，消防法這個部分也列入修正的內容。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝署長，我簡單跟你請教，第一個，資訊的即時性是不是也有確認清楚？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["張委員智倫：當時明揚事件在救火的時候，發現它的有害物質超量30倍，因為我們常常會擔心，很多時候有些企業登錄進去的資料，後來都沒有更新，這個超量30倍的部分，有沒有做動態式、滾動式的調整？你們是怎麼樣去跟各部會做協調的，是不是可以簡述一下？"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分在工廠輔導法已經列入修正的內容，對於違法的部分會做處理，從貯存量的情形來做處理，當然在化學雲的部分，目前這些資料都會上雲，上雲以後，這些資料……"],["張委員智倫：大概多久確認一次？"],["蕭署長煥章：目前就修正過以後，我要確認一下，就是工廠輔導法修正過以後的內容，應該是六個月，我再確認一下，再跟委員回報。"],["張委員智倫：所以本席是不是拜託署長建議一下，如果六個月才上傳，那麼工廠自律的方式是怎麼做，是不是他們只要有更動的時候，多久之內要把這些有害物質去做一個登錄的動作好嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，這個部分，我們再跟經濟部來做一個確認，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好。第二個要請教署長的部分，最近消防法有修正，修正的部分有一個重點，剛剛有提過，就是署長特別再講到的，如果企業不改善減災應該停工的這個部分，在消防法第四十二條第三項，這邊在法令的部分並沒有看到修改，還是「得停工」，這跟我們一般基層消防員的訴求不一樣，他們希望是「應停工」，署長這邊有什麼樣的看法？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，因為消防設備不合規定，有包括滅火器可能過期，或者是出口標示燈不亮，假設這個部分也要當成「應停工」，我想這個部分就比例原則上面會出問題。目前消防法的修正4月30日已經報到行政院，接下來會送到大院來審查，再請委員跟我們做指導，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好，到時候大家再細部去做討論，看如何處理基層消防員最重視的一些比較有害的物質定時去做提報的部分。","今天最重要的點，還有一點時間，針對工會法的修法，我們是為了要保障所有消防人員的權益，我請教一下，剛剛很多委員也提到，其他國家也有組工會，只是針對爭議權的部分去做限縮，這個部分有沒有辦法來協助？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，目前的方向是朝向修正消防法，列職安的專章，這是第一部分；另外，就消防人員這方面，協會主要是結社權及協商這個部分，目前協會法的修正已經納入這個精神，協商的項目也擴大，我想這個部分我們會配合銓敘部修正的內容來做處理。"],["張委員智倫：不好意思！因為時間的關係。最後想要請教部長一下，部長，不好意思！讓你站那麼久，一直還沒有問到你……"],["許部長銘春：謝謝，不會。"],["張委員智倫：最後要請教部長，因為你身為勞動部長，其實消防員也是非常辛苦，都在勞動的……"],["許部長銘春：是、是。"],["張委員智倫：新聞上一直有在報一個消息，就是消防人員的平均壽命不到60歲，大概50幾歲而已，部長，針對我們廣大的消防員，是不是讓消防員能夠開心，有沒有什麼可以提出，讓消防員的平均壽命可以再增加？是不是因為這整個勞動環境造成消防員的平均壽命比較低，你有沒有什麼看法？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，我想的確消防員所面臨的是非常高風險的工作，身心的壓力都是非常大，這個部分，當然整個勞動環境怎麼樣去優化，對於他的健康安全，在平常怎麼樣能夠來做協助，我想我們應該是要跨部會一起來努力。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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這個部分我們再來跟經濟部來做一個確認 謝謝好第二個要請教這個署長的部分最近消防法有修正修正的部分有幾個有一個重點就是說他們針對剛剛有提過就是如果剛剛署長特別講到如果企業部改善減災應該停工的這個部分在消防法第42條第三項這邊的部分還是法令的修改的部分沒有看到修改還是得停工"},{"start":201.744,"end":207.147,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件, 擬具 、 工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案件, 擬具"},{"start":219.074,"end":234.205,"text":"應停工,我想這個部分對於比例原則上面會出問題所以在整個消防法修正目前已經5月10號報到行政院4月30號已經報到行政院接下來會送大院來審查那再請委員再跟我們做指導謝謝"},{"start":235.126,"end":237.409,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。​​"},{"start":252.866,"end":265.915,"text":"除此之外,我們是為了要保障所有消防人員的權益,那我請教一下,剛剛很多委員也提到說其他國家也有這個組工會,只是針對爭議權的部分來去做限縮,這個部分有沒有辦法來協助?"},{"start":267.811,"end":290.612,"text":"公務員報告目前的方向是朝向修正消防法列治安的專商這個第一部分公務員報告那另外就消防人員這方面協會主要是結社權跟協商這個部分在目前的協會法的修正已經納入這個精神那協商的項目也擴大我想這個部分我們會配合全市部修正的內容來做一個處理"},{"start":291.613,"end":293.634,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":313.283,"end":322.27,"text":"人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":335.215,"end":359.392,"text":"各位報告我想的確消防員他所面臨的是非常高風險的工作身心的壓力都是非常大我想這個部分當然整個勞動環境怎麼樣去把它優化然後對他的健康安全在平常有怎麼樣能夠來做協助我想我們應該是要跨部會一起來努力好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝張志倫委員"}]}},{"id":"152463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173414587222e195e7e3ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4ddd19aba2380f10335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:22:31 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他所做的事 他所說的就是軍事訓練嘛那你慢慢的這個校園安全包括這個安全相關的宣導並不是他們所學的專業嘛所以你未來要慢慢用專業的人去取代這個校園安全的這個人員嘛而不是說為了填補他們的工作中間你就找一個工作給他做"},{"start":389.278,"end":389.918,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":416.104,"end":416.244,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152462","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173467c9ba08646f3868ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d7cb136f02ab460f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:16:40 - 12:26:07","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":567,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:26:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:16:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1087,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時16分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請勞動部部長，還有消防署署長。"],["主席：好，請許部長跟蕭署長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，署長好。因為接下來有關於消防員組工會的事情，可能是勞動部跟消防署的權責，都有一些觀點跟立場必須表達，所以請兩位一起上來。我先請教一下消防署署長，前兩天有人針對台灣民眾黨黨團提案支持消防員組工會這個事情，拿了一個說帖到我的服務處來，說因為消防署的立場是不贊成消防員組工會，所以要求我們撤回提案，這件事情是消防署授意的嗎？怎麼會有人做這種事？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員關心，這個部分我們有跟縣市瞭解，有18個縣市不同意入工會，有1個縣市同意入工會，但是限制罷工權，有3個機關沒有回應，是採取保留的態度。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答我的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：我想這是整體性的……"],["黃委員國昌：這是消防署授意的嗎？這是消防署授意的嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們跟縣市溝通……"],["黃委員國昌：這是消防署授意的嗎？請你回答我的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：看看怎麼跟委員報告。我們跟縣市……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是消防署授意的嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們是跟縣市溝通，請縣市跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答問題。有人拿著消防署的說帖到我地方的服務處來，我們支持消防員組工會，結果消防署……我不曉得是官很大嗎？我第一次聽到有部會要求立法委員撤回提案，署長，你會不會覺得太誇張？還是你也支持這樣做？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們尊重委員的權責。"],["黃委員國昌：你們有尊重委員的權責嗎？拿著一個說帖來，建請委員撤回修正提案，這是不是消防署的說帖？還是有人偽造、變造文書，說清楚啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：撤回是我們做得不好，但是我們必須讓縣市能夠使委員適時地瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你也同意嘛！消防署要求委員撤回提案非常不妥，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，這我們會調整。"],["黃委員國昌：消防署可以做這種事，要求委員撤回提案嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：不可能要求啦！怎麼可能……"],["黃委員國昌：白紙黑字就這樣寫啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["黃委員國昌：消防署可以這樣幹嗎？署長，請表示意見，不要站在那邊不講話。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，剛剛跟委員報告，這個文字是不妥，我們必須尊重委員的意見來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，不妥，我們繼續看，消防員組工會這一件事情，基層的消防弟兄喊了非常久。如果現行制度下，我們在第一線冒險犯難的消防弟兄覺得他們可以獲得應有的保障，而不是每次大火以後，我看到消防員流著眼淚在送他們那些本來一起工作、一起冒險犯難的弟兄，今天這個訴求就不會浮上水面，也不會得到那麼多人民的支持。從各國的比較法制當中，有非常多國家是支持也贊成消防員可以組工會。當然，我們目前的政府是相對保守的，不贊成消防員組工會，我的理解有沒有錯誤？署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，我們目前朝向幾個部分的進展是不是方便跟委員做報告？"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請您針對問題回答就好了。現在的政府支不支持消防員組工會？"],["蕭署長煥章：組工會是一個方式，組協會也是一個方式，目前……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們支不支持他們組工會？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們現在是朝向組協會的方式來做處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這樣的立場是目前、520以前舊政府的立場，沒有錯嘛！對吧？"],["蕭署長煥章：這整個執行的方向和執行的措施……"],["黃委員國昌：在520以前、目前陳建仁內閣是不贊成消防員組工會，沒有錯嘛？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們朝向更廣的方式來處理消防員的職業安全問題。"],["黃委員國昌：不管你用什麼樣的形容詞來形容，你「不贊成消防員組工會」這幾個字就講不出來嘛！身為署長，你不贊成就不贊成嘛！大聲地講，這就是你的政策立場嘛！現在我的問題很簡單，對於不贊成消防員組工會的這個政策立場，新的內閣、新的政府也支持嗎？請問署長！"],["蕭署長煥章：目前是這個方向，我們正在努力之中。"],["黃委員國昌：我的意思是新的政府、新的內閣支持嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我想政府的政策應該是有一致性的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是新的政府也不贊成消防員組工會，是這樣嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：應該是這麼講，消防人員的安全是政府重視的一個項目，怎麼樣達到消防人員的安全，這是目前的措施。我上禮拜才從美國參加55個國家的消防首長會議……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我現在問的是新政府的態度！你不知道就說不知道嘛！你在那邊扯你去美國幹嘛！我有請你報告你去美國回來的心得嗎？新的政府支不支持？你知道就知道，不知道就不知道，扯那麼多幹嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：我現在不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，請部長。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：你們不清楚嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是！"],["黃委員國昌：您即將要卸任勞動部部長了嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["黃委員國昌：過去在這個質詢台上，我為了檢驗蔡總統的六大勞工保證，也數度對你提出質詢，但是站在人民的立場，監督行政部門施政本來就是我們立法委員該做的事情，我相信部長不會把它當成是個人的事情。"],["許部長銘春：不會、不會。"],["黃委員國昌：您馬上要離任勞動部部長了，不管如何，過去這幾年您在這個位置上，其實我看得出來您也是兢兢業業在做，做的效果大家滿不滿意，我相信社會各界、勞工朋友心裡面有一把尺，我們做為在野黨，該提出的批判還是要提出來批判，在您要離開之前，對於消防弟兄希望組工會這件事情，您要不要表達一下自己的看法？"],["許部長銘春：委員，我是這樣子認為，消防員的權益是應該要保障，他們的訴求我們一定要重視，今天這個問題主要是過去可能有些權益或訴求沒有受到充分的重視，所以才會有這個組工會的訴求。站在勞動部的立場，我們一定是支持他們的團結權，不管是結社或協商，當然，爭議權的部分會比較保留，但是在達到他們訴求的路徑上，如果以現在的身分，組工會可能會有其困難的話，我們是比較傾向如果在公協法（公務人員協會法）能夠去把他們的協商、結社權予以強化、提升，我覺得我們會來努力。"],["黃委員國昌：好，部長，謝謝。我大概瞭解您的立場了啦！因為今天也是您最後一次備詢，我也沒有辦法逼你講出你的違心之論，只是我覺得有些事情我們要在公共政策的討論上面敞開心胸看一看，南韓在2021年的時候就開放消防員組工會了嘛！他們開放消防員組工會的時候，講得非常的清楚，為了要符合國際勞工組織關於結社自由等相關規範，南韓的國民議會通過了公職人員工會法修正草案，明定消防人員、教育人員也可以組織工會。我們是希望臺灣在保障我們消防弟兄的這一件事情上面，他們會有這麼強烈的呼聲，而且持續了這麼久，顯然就是目前既有的機制沒有辦法滿足他們權益保障的要求，所以這些消防弟兄的心聲，我們要虛心的聽進去，如果一直反對他們組工會，那麼相對應的是，你有什麼更好的辦法？而且能夠讓這些消防弟兄相信你們所提出的也可以滿足他們的需求，如果沒有辦法做到這件事情，我們還不讓那些消防弟兄透過工會團結起來去行使他們的權利，我覺得說不過去，我這段話不僅僅是跟在場的署長以及即將卸任的勞動部部長分享，其實我也是公開的在跟社會對話，也希望新的政府可以聽得進去。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.480968750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.83784375,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.28909375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.402218750000003,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.74659375,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.610968750000005,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.08284375,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.15409375,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.44846875,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.31721875,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.00471875,"end":65.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.84346875,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.03659375000001,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.71159375,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.03221875,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.02909375,"end":93.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.92346875000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.64034375,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.70784375000001,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.71596875,"end":101.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.37784375000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.79471875,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.05596875,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.42659375000001,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.07596875,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.80534375,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.21846875000001,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.22221875000001,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.61409375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.17909375000002,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.50784375,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.26221875000002,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.02971875,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.34909375,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.87596875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.04471875000002,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.38221875000002,"end":155.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.58471875,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.71534375000002,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.32659375,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.38909375,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.49034375000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.13534375,"end":170.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.92409375,"end":171.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.27409375000002,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.12596875,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.63221875000002,"end":175.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.00346875000002,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.03721875000002,"end":178.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.82159375,"end":186.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.95159375,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.48284375,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.17471875,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.20846875,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.11096875,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.19909375,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.18596875,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.55221875,"end":203.79659375},{"speak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是是是,這個在520以前目前陳建仁內閣是不贊成消防員組工會沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":284.074,"end":293.236,"text":"我們朝向更廣的方式來處理消防人員失業安全問題。 好,不管啦你用什麼樣的形容詞形容嘛,你不贊成消防員組工會這幾個字就講不出來嘛。"},{"start":295.757,"end":321.979,"text":"你當為署長你不贊成就不贊成嘛大聲的講這就是你的政策立場嘛現在我的問題很簡單啦不贊成消防員主公會的這個政策立場新的內閣新的政府也支持嗎請問署長目前是這個方向我們是在努力的對我的意思是新的政府新的內閣支持嗎我想政府的政策設置政策應該是一次性的"},{"start":322.95,"end":344.058,"text":"所以你的意思是新的政府也不贊成消防員組公會是這樣嗎應該是這麼講消防營業的安全這是政府重視的一個項目怎麼樣達到消防營業的安全這是目前的措施我上禮拜才從美國參加我是五個國家的消防組的會議對不起我在問的是新政府的態度你不知道就說不知道嘛你在那邊扯你去美國幹嘛我有請你報告你去美國回來的心得嗎"},{"start":349.662,"end":370.305,"text":"新的政府支不支持你知道就知道不知道就不知道扯那麼多幹嘛我現在不清楚來請部長是高委員我不清楚你不清楚嘛是您即將要卸任勞動部部長了嘛過去在這個質詢台上我為了要去檢驗蔡總統六大勞工保證我也對你提出過是"},{"start":371.754,"end":390.034,"text":"獅度的質詢但站在人民的立場監督行政部門施政本來就是我們立法委員該做的事情我相信部長不會把它當成是個人的事情好那您馬上要離任勞動部部長了不管如何不管如何您在這個位置上過去這幾年"},{"start":391.095,"end":411.267,"text":"​​ 其實我看得出來啊,你也是進進業業在做。做的效果滿不滿意。我相信社會各界勞工朋友心裡面有一把尺。我們作為在野黨該提出的批判還是要提出批判。在您要離開之前,對於消防員的弟兄希望組工會這件事情,您要不要表達一下你的看法。"},{"start":413.274,"end":438.77,"text":"委員我是這樣子認為說消防員的權益我們是應該要保障他們的訴求我們一定要重視所以今天這個問題主要是在於過去可能有些權益或訴求方面沒有受到充分的一個重視所以才會有這個組工會的訴求站在勞動部的立場我們一定是支持他們的團結權"},{"start":440.691,"end":464.565,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其"},{"start":465.345,"end":486.605,"text":"我大概了解您的立場了啦因為也是您最後一次備詢嘛我也沒有辦法逼出你講出你的唯心之論啊那只是我覺得有一些事情齁我們現在在公共政策的討論上面敞開心胸看一看南韓在2021年的時候他們就開放消防員組工會了嘛"},{"start":487.205,"end":500.056,"text":"他們開放消防員組工會的時候講得非常的清楚為了要符合國際勞工組織關於解設自由等相關規範南韓的國民議會通過了公職人員工會法修正草案"},{"start":500.95,"end":525.695,"text":"民定、消防人員、教育人員也可以組織公會我們是希望台灣在保障我們消防弟兄的這一件事情上面他們會有這麼強烈的呼聲而且持續了這麼久顯然就是目前既有的機制沒有辦法滿足他們權益保障的要求所以這些消防弟兄的心聲我們要虛心的聽進去"},{"start":526.815,"end":537.991,"text":"如果說一直反對他們組工會的話那你相對應的是那你有什麼更好的辦法而且能夠讓這些消防弟兄相信你們所提出來的"},{"start":539.025,"end":549.149,"text":"), 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條條文修正草案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會"}]}},{"id":"152461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17349a9b1696f543e975ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d789215d5dfcb6ad05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:08:59 - 12:22:27","影片長度":"00:13:28","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":808,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:22:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:08:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時9分）謝謝召委。不好意思，請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：潘部長好。今天應該是您在519之前最後一次來委員會，所以本席今天在進入主題之前有一些感觸跟心情要跟您分享一下，當然也藉此機會跟部裡面做一個溝通。","部長在2016年接任教育部長，後來因為一個可能跟你不是那麼相關的事件回到民間，然後在2019年又扛起這個重責大任。經過這麼多的事，我只能大聲對您說聲：您辛苦啦！"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：當然部裡面的同仁也是一樣，不管我們有什麼看法上的差異，我們也是有很多大家可以一起繼續再努力的地方。","我這邊要回顧一下本席從詢答以後所碰到的一些狀況跟建議，我發現每一項的主題問答，我們這邊都會碰到有關於組織或是法案，專案或者是計畫、預算等等，過去的詢答有很多，包括各部會相關組織的調整，或者是計畫的施行。我這邊整理了一下，發現截至目前為止都不太長，這些相關的、我剛才講的這些主題，除了時間不太長以外，還有一個很重要的、我覺得應該做的事情就是，都沒有進行定期的檢視、檢討跟修正，有一些──其實包括剛才好幾位委員講的主題，有一些好像事實上應該剎車，重新省思，或者是可以繼續在配套上做一些整理再進行下去的部分，好像大家都沒有時間再去好好的做整理。","所以我在這邊呼應幾件很嚴重的，也是我主題所講的，就是私校退場條例實施到今天，我也提過很多次，看起來就只有清算、停辦、接管，接下來，我們大家不知道何去何從。另外，私校要不要繼續就讓它這樣子結束，細節我其實已經提了一些，未來還會再提。究竟他們要怎麼辦？我們不知道怎麼辦，我們沒有任何的預設立場，你要他們往哪個方向去，你總要告訴他們要怎麼走，或者是能怎麼走。","再來是這兩年，我不管這個政策上是不是有什麼問題啦，感覺上很多量化的數字好像很美，可是看起來，我們也不知道接續下去裡面的質量是如何。剛才麥委員所講的東西，本席在教學的第一線現場，甚至在教育部裡面有紀錄，我就已經經歷過很多的問題，上次次長又被我講了一圈，我告訴他，國際生在現場會碰到什麼樣的問題。你們的南向事實上要注意到，這些國家其實每一個國家的差異性非常的高，待會我再講一些細項，不過在這邊我先提出一個最基本的建議啦。","最近許多教團很期待我們應該舉辦一個全國的教育會議，這個部分本席絕對呼應，因為從2010年召開之後，到現在很久了耶，雖然我們召委說教育是至少十年，然後我們也知道百年的一個時間，但是14年沒有檢討，你不覺得我們在現場，我相信行政、教學等等都會有很大的問題，所以因應社會的變遷，跟這幾年的狀況跟問題，我們是不是應該好好的檢討一下，在各個層級？所以我呼應正式舉辦全國教育會議來處理這件事情，好，這是一個呼籲啦，也希望部長未來有機會可以支持，我們希望如果有這樣的會議，能夠借重您在這中間的經驗，給我們一些建議。","接下來，今天的主題，大學推動國際招生並留用，數字很漂亮啦，但是基本上本席認為，這就是2030年雙語計畫所延伸出來的子計畫，早上也有委員提醒你們哪雙語？本席作為一個原住民，我可不可以也建議，原住民裡面就其地區，這個雙語可不可以──華語如果是現在大家都會講的，那其他一個語言，是不是也可以選擇原住民的其中一個語言？要不然我們原住民的孩子，可能有的時候都要學三到四種，阿美族的也要學到泰雅族的，因為師資的關係，還有一些師資、經費不平等的問題，如果還要學英語，還要學自己的母語，我們的負擔也很重。","我簡單提一下，因為本人對語言很有興趣，接觸的也很多，也實地參與過，所以我可以提很細的建議，但是我們今天不在這邊講細的東西，所以呢，我們談到這個很短的時間，就連許多現在雙語推動成就很好的國家，他們也花了比我們現在預定的時間還長的時間，而且基礎部分我們要來談論好，究竟這樣子我們就會國家富強嗎？還是我們究竟要幹什麼？而不是丟一個東西下來我們就全盤接受，結果搞得很多人在這麼限制的時間內沒有辦法做好，就是你增加很多人的負擔，而且效益是不彰的，就本人第一線所碰到的是如此。","接下來，這張牌子又出來了，如果這個問題沒解決，絕對是幾年來本席會繼續一直唸、一直唸的，請原諒本席，我也不喜歡一天到晚聽到某一些標語一直在那邊唸啊唸的、喊啊喊的，但是截至目前為止都沒有解決，更何況今天是這個國際生的問題。我這邊要喊的就是未來我們在2030年要留用六萬多個人，你們有評估過現在在學的學生狀況及未來他們在職場的狀況，還有未來這些外籍生對整個人口結構及學生部分就業就學的衝擊嗎？這個部分如果教育部還沒做，因為常常對於本席提出來的問題，教育部都說要不然去跟別人拿、要不然就是你們沒有，如果沒有做，本席在這邊提醒，我剛才講的問題如果你們沒有聽懂，可以私下再跟本席確認。","本席在第一次也提到了，可不可以給我們原住民一個機會，也學習到你們所謂的STEM？我還要再唸一次嗎？Science、Technology、Engineering、Mathematics，然後你們講的金融半導體Finance跟Semiconductor，可不可以給我們一個機會，不要把我們一直鎖在某一些原住民相關的？不管是原住民專班或產技2.0，本席也比較過了，謝謝部裡面提供這個資訊，不過部裡面跟我們說某些東西是機密，結果有的我們也在網路上查到了，怎麼辦？你們的機密不小心露出來了，你們要小心喔，這些機密請部裡面再好好的審視一下，是不是要某種程度的提供給本席，因為你們說是機密，所以本席很認真的查才查出，天啊！這個產技2.0給的不僅是原住民的學生，還給臺灣的學生；然後國際專班的部分，依照你們跟我們講的，這應該是南向政策的什麼什麼，各位，一般民眾不會管我們這個政策下面的哪一個經費，我們有責任把民眾的問題聽懂，他們不會管我們什麼南向政策下面的這些配套，重點就是，我很簡單的講，就是每個月臺灣學生能夠拿到的資源跟補助比國際專班的學生來得低很多，這是第一個。第二個，未來他們的職場比我們能夠做的高端科技跟臺灣的主要科技的機會來得多很多，為什麼中華民國的納稅錢照顧不了臺灣的原住民跟臺灣的學生？所以本席本來只幫原住民爭取，現在所有你們認為非國際生的人，臺灣的學生，本席都要爭取。","接下來，有關臺灣優華語計畫的師資不足，我先請教一下，華語現在的認證考試是什麼樣的一個狀況？華語的認證考試，可以回應我一下我們華語認證考試的狀況嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：剛才委員提到的一個部分，我可能要跟委員補充說明一下，我們的教育……"],["林委員倩綺：部長，不好意思，你一說明會有點久耶！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我要說明一下，臺灣的教育資源絕對大比例都是投資在我們自己國內的學生……"],["林委員倩綺：當然一定要啊，因為我們的人數比例，這個數據各位算一下之後，我們再來彼此的對一下啦！"],["潘部長文忠：對啦，委員剛才提到原住民的學生從學費的補助，還有五專展翅計畫……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長還要幫未來的同仁們做一些辯護……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有、沒有，這個我一定要說啦，不要引起誤解。"],["林委員倩綺：我知道就您的觀點，應該部裡面的同仁都很認真，我相信他們也都很認真，只是我們可能要溝通一下我的話語跟部裡面的認知，本人可能稍稍一點行政經驗，所以這個部分的轉化，我想在一些細節上我們還是會做一個對話跟處理。"],["潘部長文忠：OK，如果對原住民族學生在後續專案上可以再怎麼協助，我想教育部跟委員這邊再交換一下意見。"],["林委員倩綺：對，謝謝。部長，我知道我私下跟您談的這個部分，你也是很支持，而且也投入不少……"],["潘部長文忠：真的是投入滿多。"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分我要跟您肯定一下，也希望部裡面的同仁……"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，也許有一些可以再聚焦、再擴大啦！"],["林委員倩綺：對、對、對！"],["潘部長文忠：這應該是一種概念，我在看那個五專展翅計畫，因為大部分我們現在的專科、五專都還是以原住民孩子、尤其護理為主的學校。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝部長，這個部分我肯定，希望未來部裡面也能夠持續。"],["潘部長文忠：我覺得應該要這樣做。"],["林委員倩綺：請問一下，優華語的計畫我們是怎麼樣的認證？"],["潘部長文忠：優華語計畫？"],["林委員倩綺：對，應該我們部裡面的同仁會清楚，也就是要讓大家學華語，華語應該有認證嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：有啊。"],["林委員倩綺：我們的認證是什麼樣子的狀況？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果是……"],["林委員倩綺：我直接這樣講好了，本人在學法語、西班牙語等其他語言，它都有DELE A UNO、DELE A UN/Deux，請問我們華語計畫的認證是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：華語能力測驗的檢測也有分級。"],["林委員倩綺：所以我們在各國都實行這個計畫，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是，因為如果他當事人……"],["林委員倩綺：好。那是什麼計畫？大家要考過什麼東西？"],["潘部長文忠：詳細的資料，我再給委員。"],["林委員倩綺：好，它的名字是什麼？我想主辦單位應該知道吧？我都唸得出來叫DELE A UNO、DELE A UN/Deux，你們應該唸得出來吧？"],["廖代理司長高賢：我們對外的華語能力測驗叫做華語文能力測驗，那……"],["林委員倩綺：我聽不太懂，你們這樣外國人聽得懂嗎？"],["廖代理司長高賢：英文簡稱TOCFL。"],["林委員倩綺：我聽不太懂你那個簡稱……"],["潘部長文忠：我們再送詳細的資料給委員參考，好嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：好。另外，時間有點窘迫，我最後提一下，我要呼應剛才葛委員所講的，他剛才給你看的那個Very glad to see you，翻譯過來應該是Encantata Que est'es aqui，現在他講的這個AI，很多東西都可以實踐，是不是可以好好的研究一下他所講的東西？因為本席有很深的語言學習經驗，沒這個環境，一切東西……"],["潘部長文忠：對，我有跟葛委員回報，確實現在我們有一個團隊就是在做AI輔助語言應用這方面，那個效果真的很好。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝，如果有在做，那很好。接下來很快，主席，我借30秒。2023年4月全國教總在公共政策網路平臺提議，要求「檢討雙語政策、回歸教育正軌」，請政府好好檢討雙語政策，包括早上有些委員講的什麼雙語，我們當然知道大家在推行的是什麼，本人在第一線真的遇到很多困難，再來是你們國發會的回應讓人家不知所措。最後，如果有一些政策真的要剎車，不要一意孤行，按下暫停鍵，讓我們都有機會喘氣好嗎？那本人是在第一線，很認真的想要做好這件事情，可是如果連我有時候都很無力的不知道能夠怎麼下去，那我們在這邊喊得再多，大家都只有徒增困擾，基層就只有越來越無力，請不要讓我們的教育，因我們所謂偉大的政策而消失，好嗎？謝謝部裡面，也謝謝潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。接下來請邱志偉委員，質詢時間4分鐘。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.750343750000003,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.98596875,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.79971875,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.66346875,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.28784375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.345968750000004,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.71659375,"end":42.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.79221875,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.91096875000001,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.83846875,"end":71.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.83409375000001,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.87596875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.67596875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.20846875000001,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.05596875,"end":129.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.52534375000002,"end":193.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.57034375,"end":220.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.19471875000002,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.79721875,"end":233.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.27284375000002,"end":250.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":348.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.48284375000003,"end":395.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.71596875,"end":427.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.43659375000004,"end":477.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.67784375,"end":493.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.04659375000006,"end":499.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.85159375,"end":505.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.80409375000005,"end":510.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.05659375000005,"end":536.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.58409375,"end":543.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.92909375,"end":549.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.13909375,"end":551.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.48471875,"end":553.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.6997187500001,"end":556.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.15096875,"end":578.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.47909375,"end":565.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.56284375,"end":565.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.25846875,"end":581.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.26971875,"end":586.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.89784375,"end":583.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6272187500001,"end":602.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.1459687500001,"end":588.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.31846875,"end":590.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.3472187500001,"end":595.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.90784375,"end":608.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.2947187500001,"end":620.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.7078437499999,"end":610.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.26846875,"end":614.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.63534375,"end":616.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.7278437500001,"end":632.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.70596875,"end":622.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.6922187499999,"end":629.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.13909375,"end":642.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.5984687499999,"end":634.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.3490937500001,"end":639.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.4072187500001,"end":653.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.3928437500001,"end":654.42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謝謝"},{"start":73.865,"end":74.345,"text":"主席"},{"start":91.371,"end":95.616,"text":"以後所碰到的一些狀況跟建議我就發現在每一項的主題問答我們這邊都會碰到有關於組織或是法案專案或者是計畫預算等等"},{"start":106.368,"end":129.343,"text":"那麼過去的詢答呢就很多包括那個各部會的這個相關的組織的調整或者是計畫的施行那我這邊整理了一下發現截至目前為止都不太長那這些相關的我剛才講的這些主題不僅時間不太長以外還有一個很重要的我覺得應該做的事情就是"},{"start":130.538,"end":130.698,"text":"主題：林倩綺"},{"start":147.529,"end":165.547,"text":"在進行下去的部分好像大家都沒有時間再好好的做整理所以我在這邊呼應幾件很嚴重的也是我主題所講的就是在私校退場條例到今天我也提過很多次看起來就只有清算、停辦、接管接下來我們大家不知道何去何從"},{"start":168.249,"end":192.695,"text":"施肖要不要是要繼續就讓他這樣子結束細節我其實已經提了一些那未來還會再提那究竟他們要怎麼辦我們不知道怎麼辦我們沒有任何的預設立場那你要他往哪個方向去你總要告訴他們那怎麼走或者是能怎麼走好那再來呢是這兩年我們不管這個政策上是不是有什麼問題啦那感覺上很多量化的數字"},{"start":193.655,"end":220.167,"text":"好像很美可是看起來我們也不知道接下去裡面的質量是如何剛才麥委員所講的東西本席在教學的第一線現場甚至在教育部裡面有記錄我就已經有經歷過很多的問題那上次次長又被我講了一圈我告訴他在這個國際生現場會碰到什麼樣的問題那你們男相事實上要注意到這些國家其實每一個國家的差異性非常的高"},{"start":221.267,"end":250.135,"text":"那待會我當然再講一些細項不過在這邊我先提出一個最基本的一個建議啦最近許多的教團很期待我們應該舉辦一個全國的教育會議這個部分本席絕對呼應因為從2010年召開之後現在很久了捏雖然我們召委說教育是至少10年然後我們也知道百年的一個百年的一個時間但是14年沒有檢討你不覺得我們在現場"},{"start":251.155,"end":265.088,"text":"我相信行政、教學等等都會有很大的問題所以因應社會的變遷跟這幾年的狀況跟問題我們是不是應該好好地檢討一下在各個層級所以我呼應正式舉辦全國教育會議來處理這件事情"},{"start":267.21,"end":267.45,"text":"大學推動國際招生並流用"},{"start":286.078,"end":310.427,"text":"但是基本上本席認為這就是2013年雙語計畫所延伸出來的子計畫早上有委員提醒你們哪雙語那本席做一個原住民我也可不可以建議那原住民裡面就地區那這個雙語可不可以那個華語如果是大家現在都會講的那其他一個語言也可以選擇原住民的其中一個語言要不然我們原住民的孩子呢可能有的時候都要學三到四種"},{"start":312.388,"end":317.33,"text":"阿美族的也要學到泰雅族的因為失智的關係還有一些失智經費的不平等的問題還要學英語還要學自己的母語我們的負擔也很重我簡單提一下因為本人對語言很有興趣接觸的也很多也實地參與我可以提很細的建議但是我們今天不在這邊講細的東西"},{"start":337.421,"end":343.485,"text":"那所以呢我們談到這個很短的這個時間就連許多現在雙語成就很好的國家他也花了比我們這樣預定的時間還長的時間而且基礎我們要來談論好究竟這樣子我們就會國家富強還是我們究竟要幹什麼不是丟一個東西下來讓我們都全盤接受結果搞得很多人在這麼限制的時間內沒有辦法就是你增加很多人負擔而且效益是不髒的"},{"start":370.526,"end":386.844,"text":"這張牌子又出來了,如果這個問題沒解決,絕對是幾年來都一定會繼續本席會一直念一直念,那請原諒本席,我也不喜歡一天到晚聽到某一些標語一直在那邊念啊念啊喊著喊著"},{"start":387.665,"end":397.832,"text":"但是當然截至目前為止都沒有解決更何況今天是這個國際生的問題那我這邊要喊就是未來我們在2030年也要留用6萬多個人那你們有跟我們現在在在學的學生的狀況跟未來他們在職場的狀況還有未來你這些外籍生對整個人口結構還有學生部分的就業就學的衝擊嗎那這個部分"},{"start":414.884,"end":416.225,"text":"可不可以給我們原住民一個機會有學習到你們所謂的STEM我還要再念一次嗎"},{"start":436.917,"end":463.175,"text":"Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics然後你們講的金融半導體Finance跟Semiconductor可不可以給我們一個機會不要把我們一直鎖在某一些原住民所謂相關的不管在原住民專班或產技2.0本席也比較過了謝謝會裡面有提供這個資訊不過會裡面跟我們說某些東西是機密結果有的我們也在網路上查到怎麼辦你們機密不小心露出來了那你們要小心喔"},{"start":464.196,"end":464.516,"text":"請各位有責任：把民眾的問題聽懂："},{"start":494.356,"end":505.09,"text":"他不會管我們什麼南向政策下面的這些配套那重點就是我很簡單的講就是每個月臺灣學生能夠拿到的資源跟補助"},{"start":506.837,"end":511.239,"text":"本席本來只幫原住民爭取現在所有你們認為非國際生的人台灣的學生本席都要爭取"},{"start":535.972,"end":538.855,"text":"接下來,臺灣優華語計畫的失之不足,我先請教一下,我先問一下,我們現在認證考試是什麼樣子的狀況?就是,華語的認證考試,"},{"start":553.918,"end":575.972,"text":"可以回應我一下我們懷疑認證考試的狀況嗎剛才委員提一個可能要跟委員補充說明一下我們的教育不過那個部長不好意思提說明會有點久不要說明一下台灣的教育資源絕對大比例都是投資在我們自己國內的學生當然一定要啦因為我們的元素比例這個數據各位再算一下我們再來彼此的對一下啦謝謝部長還要幫未來的同仁們"},{"start":580.635,"end":580.675,"text":"林倩綺議員"},{"start":610.384,"end":610.444,"text":"林倩綺議員"},{"start":628.695,"end":629.596,"text":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就:「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討。：林倩綺"},{"start":655.078,"end":668.68,"text":"我直接這樣講好了本人在學法語、西班牙語、其他的語言那他都有テレ、グノ、オテレ、ア、ド那請問我們的華語計畫是什麼我想了解一下我們的那個"},{"start":669.691,"end":688.732,"text":"有華語能力測驗 檢測 也有分級所以我們在各國都實行這個計畫嘛 對不對是啊 因為如果他當事人希望大家要考過什麼東西那個詳細的資料再給委員阿名字是什麼 我想那個主辦單位應該知道吧我都唸得出來叫 TELE A TELE UNO你們應該唸得出來吧"},{"start":691.916,"end":705.416,"text":"對外華語的能力測驗叫華語文能力測驗我聽不太懂你是外國人聽得懂嗎這樣英文簡稱TALK4我聽不太懂你那個簡稱那個詳細的資料給委員參考比較好那另外呢你說這個"},{"start":706.257,"end":730.012,"text":"阿這樣好了齁 時間也有點那個窘迫那我這邊齁最後提一下 剛才我也呼應那個葛委員這邊所講的齁他剛才給你那個Very glad to see you那這邊應該是Encantada que estes aquí齁那現在他講的這個AI 很多東西都可以實踐是不是可以好好的研究一下他所講的東西因為本席有很深的語言學習經驗沒這個環境"},{"start":731.693,"end":731.813,"text":"主席"},{"start":750.397,"end":769.338,"text":"對,好,2023年4月公共政策網路平台全國教總的提議請我們好好檢討這個雙語,包括早上有一些委員講了什麼雙語我們當然知道大家在推行的是什麼回歸教育的正軌,那本人第一線真的遇到很多困難好,那再來你們國發會的回應讓人家不知所措好,接下來最後"},{"start":770.796,"end":787.732,"text":"如果有一些政策真的要煞車不要一意孤行按下暫停鍵讓我們都有機會喘氣好嗎那本人是第一線很認真的想要做好這件事情可是如果連我有時候都很無力的不知道能夠怎麼下去那"},{"start":789.206,"end":789.286,"text":"好 謝謝兩位"}]}},{"id":"152460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173467e320c8adc1be0fab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d824389cbc841edea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:11:17 - 12:16:38","影片長度":"00:05:21","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":321,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:16:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T12:11:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1070,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時11分）謝謝主席。有請勞動部，謝謝。"],["主席：請勞動部許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，如您剛剛所說，這是您在委員會最後一次接受質詢，等一下我所要跟您討論的就麻煩您交接給新任的部長，好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於中高齡就業的部分，我今天比較多力氣想要關懷在關於女性就業的部分，我相信部長你一定知道，目前很多事實的現況是大部分的女性在生了小孩、結了婚之後，其實是以照顧家庭為主，等到孩子大了，家庭照顧的責任變輕了之後，他們想要再回到職場上，絕對面臨非常非常多的困難。所以，我看到在勞動部的就業服務站，你們有所謂的求職媒合，可是我要說，相關的求職媒合到底如何開發對於這些新的時代要重新回到職場上這些即將就業的婦女的期待？我想要聽聽部長說說看，目前在勞動部的就業服務站，你們所收集到比較多現況或是困境可能會是什麼？關於這些女性想要重新回到職場上，透過你們的就業服務站的求職媒合服務，他們比較多遇到的困境會是什麼？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們現在就服站裡面尤其是針對要再就業的婦女，我們在去年就協助了兩萬多人次就業，基本上過去比較常遭遇到的就是有時候婦女要兼顧家庭的一些照顧，所以他想要申請的職缺可能就類似部分工時或彈性工時，而這部分，過去確實因為我們是以全時工作為主，目前為了婦女再就業，所以我們現在是把雇主提供工時彈性這個部分納入我們的再就業計畫，我們提供一些相關的獎勵機制。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，聽起來您確實知道目前最大的困境就是剛剛說的彈性工時，還有我之前就已經跟部長說過的遠距工作，其實也是很多新時代女生在求職的時候，他們希望職場雇主給予的彈性，你現在也看到了，其實再回到職場上，很多中高齡婦女他們也需要這樣的彈性，就是彈性工時、遠距工作，我再次強調──彈性工時、遠距工作。臺灣過往在招募國際人才的時候，非常多相關勞動政策，其中最為國際專業移工所詬病的就是臺灣的遠距工作跟彈性工時非常非常的不友善！我們來看一下，在去年以桃園為例，勞發署在桃竹苗成立了一個銀髮人才資源中心，你們甚至提出一個2023到2025年中高齡者還有高齡者就業促進計畫，計畫裡面說要擴建銀髮就業服務據點，強化服務據點的駐點服務，結合社區資源，開拓銀髮勞動市場，可是我們沒有看到更多、更積極的想像；也就是說，對於這一群即將回到職場上非常有用的專業人力，你們到底如何想像他們對於職場的貢獻，跟對於自己生涯再次開發這件事情？我們在你們的相關計畫裡面都沒有看到！但其實在相關的法裡面已經給你們一個空間，給你們一個很重要的政策工具，就是要開發適合的就業機會，可是如果大家對於這些女性回到職場上所認為可以做的工作，它不僅被雇主所限制住，它其實也被在政策端你們完全沒有想像力所限制住！我舉一個非常有名的例子，禾乃川是地方創生很有名的小豆漿店，過去它在社區裡面賣，一天可以做200瓶，但是200瓶可能賣不出去，可是由地方創生的服務團隊、輔導團隊協助他們跟當地的7-ELEVEN合作，以大帶小，也許200瓶賣不了全臺灣的7-ELEVEN，可是它賣得到社區裡面的7-ELEVEN，於是它就變成非常有特色的、在地的7-ELEVEN願意提供的商品。甚至為了這個事情、為了商品，7-ELEVEN改他們的系統，然後大家要重新建立新的以大帶小的合作模式。我想要講的是，其實國發會的地方創生已經有類似的案例在進行，我建議勞動部或者是相關部會必須積極合作，把這些社會上已經在運作的創業模式、就業模式帶入你們的政策想像當中，不要只有像這樣的寫法──開發適合的就業機會，可是落在你們政策端的想像到底是什麼？我還是要再次拜託部長，務必要把這個想法交接給新的部長，一定要把新的想像往下……"],["許部長銘春：對，我說明一下，這個是婦女再就業，我們有結合十個部會，那個計畫是針對中高齡，有跨部會在討論，包括他們來協助開發就業機會。委員的建議我們一定會檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：現在有非常多新型態，以大帶小這件事情真的已經在很多地方產生了，出現還不錯的化學效應。"],["許部長銘春：是，我想國科會應該……"],["陳委員培瑜：你們跨部會或者是國發會，也請他們提供相關的案例，作為勞動部非常重要的政策工具。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。有這種成功案例，我就請各部會協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：我只是舉其中一個案例。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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目前很多事實的現況是大部分的女性在生了小孩結了婚之後其實是照顧家庭為主等到孩子大了家庭照顧責任變輕了之後他們想要再回到職場上絕對絕對面臨非常非常多的困難所以我看到在勞動部的就業服務站你們有所謂的求職媒合可是我要說相關的求職媒合到底如何開發對於這些"},{"start":56.51,"end":58.951,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":84.851,"end":101.699,"text":"公園報告其實我們現在就務站裡面針對尤其是要再就業的婦女其實像我們在去年就協助了2萬多人次的這個就業那基本上大概過去比較遭遇到的就是因為有時候婦女要兼顧家庭的一些照顧所以可能她要"},{"start":102.539,"end":102.679,"text":"獎勵及獎勵機制。"},{"start":123.114,"end":151.421,"text":"好聽起來您確實知道目前最大困境就是剛剛說彈性工時還有我之前就已經跟部長說過的遠距工作其實也是很多新時代的女生她們在求職的時候她們希望職場的雇主給予的彈性你現在也看到了其實再回到職場上很多中高齡的婦女她們也需要這樣的彈性就是彈性工時遠距工作我再次談掉彈性工時遠距工作臺灣過往在招募國際人才的時候非常多相關勞動政策其中最為很多國際專業移工"},{"start":152.861,"end":153.621,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":178.666,"end":181.968,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":196.138,"end":201.32,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":224.648,"end":227.852,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":241.127,"end":256.894,"text":"​​ 於是他就變成一個非常有特色的在地7-11願意提供的商品甚至為了這個事情為了這個商品7-11要去改他們的系統然後大家要重新建立一個新的所謂以大帶小的合作模式我想要講的是其實在國防會地方創生已經有類似的案例在進行但是勞動部這邊或者是相關部會我都要建議你們必須要積極的合作"},{"start":264.697,"end":264.717,"text":"),委員"},{"start":282.302,"end":287.625,"text":"兼具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案件 及 工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案件 及 工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":299.79,"end":317.541,"text":" »:因為現在有非常多新型態以大代小這件事情真的已經在很多地方產生了還不錯的化學效應。那我想你們不管是跟其他跨部會或者是國發會也請他們提供相關的案例作為勞動部非常重要的政策工具。 »:我們有這種成功的案例我就請各部會能夠來接觸。 »:是,我只是舉其中一個案例。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。 »:好,謝謝。接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"152459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173474e53dfb0b2329d5ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d422a069ce37fbd0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:56:50 - 12:11:05","影片長度":"00:14:15","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":855,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:11:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:56:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時56分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，今天是你在這邊的最後一天。"],["許部長銘春：最後一天詢答，我要到519才是最後一天了。"],["劉委員建國：我還沒有講完啦！你不要這麼緊張，我說今天是你在委員會接受備詢的最後一天。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：你也是中華民國在職最久的勞動部部長，有沒有什麼樣刻骨銘心的感言要跟委員會簡單闡述一下呢？給你一分鐘。"],["許部長銘春：我很謝謝有這個機會擔任全國勞工兄弟姐妹的大工頭，我也努力把握每一天的機會，能夠為勞工多做一點事情，當然沒有辦法做到一百分，永遠都有努力的空間，但我盡力而為，也謝謝包括所有的立法委員，還有包括所有我們的勞工朋友，還有包括我自己的同仁，大家都非常支持，都為了照顧勞工一起來努力，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。我會珍惜你在這個委員會的最後一次，我還是要再提醒部長，在新舊部長交接之際，有一件事情一定要非常慎重來面對，就是移工失聯的問題，2月16日臺印簽署了視訊的MOU，然後3月6號衛環也排了一個針對開放之後對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊的專題報告，我要講的是，這會變成新任部長一個首要的任務，這是其一；其二是到目前為止，臺灣有八萬五千多名的逃逸外勞，我們要怎麼去面對這個問題，這是絕對沒有辦法矇混過關的，因為部長已經要到任了，所以新任部長上來後刻不容緩要面對這個事情，但是我知道你們有在準備修就服法，針對每案裁罰15萬到75萬，改提高為以每人計罰；然後提高非法媒介罰款至3倍，從罰款10萬到50萬提高到每人開罰30萬到150萬，加重其刑責，目前的草案應該是朝這個方向，對不對？沒有錯吧？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：等於這個修法的重責大任會落在新部長的身上，但是我現在要請教部長，這個法案何時會送進來？"],["許部長銘春：這個還在行政院，其實我們這個草案提出一段時間了，但因為主要還是要先解決缺工的問題，所以這個部分目前行政院還在……"],["劉委員建國：這個部分請部長跟新部長要有一定程度的交接，好不好？就是說移工的失聯原因包括經濟因素、勞動條件還有雇主不當對待等，也不全然是非法仲介的問題，這個大家都非常清楚嘛！你看在2022年美國國務院的人權報告中也提到臺灣移工問題，有提出相關警訊，移工來臺工作常因背負高額的仲介費，面臨剝削，有抵債勞動的風險，因為移工來這邊是為了賺錢而不是還債，所以條件不好自然就會跑嘛！那你看日本還有韓國也朝向放寬移工市場的限制，我想如果屆時在國際市場做比較，到時候臺灣要引進更多的移工可能會有一定程度的挑戰跟難度嘛！所以對這個部分以部長的經驗要交接給新的部長，要好好來面對這個事情，這是其一。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：其二，我為什麼要用一點點時間來講這個事情？因為等一下我們要回到今天的主題也就是工會法，臺灣不僅是移工有風險存在，連當臺灣的公務人員都有基本上的過勞風險，這個大家都非常清楚。部長，你看臺灣失聯8萬5,000名的移工要怎麼查，我要給你們一個數據，先請內政部還有移民署的官員上臺，時間比較不會延宕啦！"],["主席：今天沒有移民署的人員。"],["劉委員建國：你看，移民署到112年11月30號的統計，移民署的專勤隊共計576人，只有這576人在查緝全臺八萬五千多名移工，這個要怎麼查？今天沒有移民署的人員，那應該有內政部的人員吧！"],["主席：只有警政署。"],["劉委員建國：也沒有內政部的人員？"],["主席：他是內政部人事處的人員。"],["劉委員建國：人事處也可以來說明，請你上來，時間要暫停，警政署人員也可以上來。移民署有一個國境大隊，到去年10月31號統計是839人要負責國家出入境的業務，那國境大隊在2019年的離職率超過8%，在疫情過後，旅客人數回升，去年的離職率已經高達12%，成長了將近50%，我想這個內政部應該都有掌握，對不對？然後警察爆退休潮，彰化縣在今年有555人申請，員警講了一句話：不戀棧、不如歸去，他們原本的員額編制是3,084，目前實際的員額是2,799，結果今年就有555人申請退休。當然不是申請退休就表示可以退休，對不對？還要依公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條規定，任職滿二十五年即可申請退休，我們警政署還是內政部有掌握到彰化縣的警局有多少員警單純是滿二十五年以上，他其實還能再繼續服勤，但是他也選擇退休，有掌握嗎？"],["陳副署長永利：報告委員，這部分我真的不是很瞭解，但是剛剛提到的數字，其實他們最近這幾年提出來大概都在400到500人之間，但是真正退休的大概就是100人以內，其實這個是有相當的差距。"],["劉委員建國：那為什麼每次都是這麼多人提出要退休，是不是像我講的，就是滿二十五年就可以提退休，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：對，是一般外勤，內勤是……"],["劉委員建國：在2021年是368人提出，在2022年是433人，在2023年即去年是525人，今年已經達到555人，就是在持續往上，你們有掌握這個狀況是什麼狀況嗎？是不是誠如他們所講的：不戀棧、不如歸去啦？是什麼原因嘛？他們是在做無聲的抗議，然後你們也視若無睹，現在警察人力是不足，你知道現在顧守我們立法院的這些員警的缺額大致上都保持多少嗎？你們知道嗎？"],["陳副署長永利：其實目前全國警察的缺額大概是四千多名。"],["劉委員建國：有四千多名，就是人力一直不足，一直補不到位，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：這個主要是因為容訓量的問題。"],["劉委員建國：對，那你人力不足的時候，你排班會不會出問題？會嘛！對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：以目前來講，我們……"],["劉委員建國：你敢說沒有問題？你要講清楚喔！你轄區這麼多單位喔！不是只有地方警察局而已喔，你除了保一、保二、保三、保四、保五，還有很多的單位，在缺乏人力的時候，可以協商嗎？缺乏人力的時候，你排班會順暢嗎？缺乏人力的時候，他們提出訴求，你們怎麼因應、怎麼處理？"],["陳副署長永利：報告委員，我想這部分目前我們因應的辦法是，其實行政院就我們警察目前的治安狀況有特別增加四千多名的預算員額，這個原來是……"],["劉委員建國：重點是你們補了嗎？還是沒補嘛，還是補不到嘛！"],["陳副署長永利：四千多員額已經補了。"],["劉委員建國：已經補了？"],["陳副署長永利：當然目前就是每一年還是會有缺額，只是說這四千多名目前因應整個警力運用的狀況，行政院原來是規定我們要分10年，這四千多名要歸還……"],["劉委員建國：10年？"],["陳副署長永利：目前我們還在協商，這部分可能……"],["劉委員建國：10年？我們兩個可能都不在這裡了，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：這部分有在協商，可能行政院這方面的要求……"],["劉委員建國：你們的協商就有問題了，你怎麼跟基層人力可以有一個順暢的協商管道？不可能啦！"],["陳副署長永利：我們目前有從一四五……他平常是沒有固定的勤務，是機動支援縣市，目前我們已經由一四五調來支援縣市警察局。"],["劉委員建國：你要跟我講樣態的狀況，可能要請主席給我更多時間，不然會很困難，我是跟你講現今全部的狀態，對不對？"],["陳副署長永利：是。"],["劉委員建國：你請休息一下。有請法務部的參事，我們目前面對這麼大量的詐騙案，司法人力嚴重不足，法務部也爭取到111年至114年分4年要增加司法人力600人，相關細節我就不講了，檢察官50人、檢察事務官250人，還有包含法警50人等等。我請教一下，目前的人力到位狀況怎麼樣？"],["汪參事南均：目前的人力……"],["劉委員建國：分4年，對不對？到明年就滿4年了，對不對？這些人現在補齊的狀況如何？"],["汪參事南均：應該都還在進行中，還是沒有……"],["劉委員建國：幾成？600名已經達標幾成了？剩下一年半的時間。"],["汪參事南均：委員，這個部分是不是可以容我回去有比較……"],["劉委員建國：所以你沒有掌握嘛！好，那我再請教一下，我們去年在司法及法制委員會有幫檢察官爭取檢察官助理100名，應該到位了嘛！法務部自己提出要再增聘150名，確定了嗎？你也不知道？"],["汪參事南均：這個部分是檢察司的業務，我想我回去可以請他們再提供比較精確的數字給委員。"],["劉委員建國：所以你不清楚，好，謝謝，那你請回座。我現在還是要講人力的問題啦！不管從警察的人力，不管從司法的人力，不管從移民署專勤隊的人力五百多名要去面對八萬多名的逃逸外勞，要怎麼去面對？大家在關注警察人力、消防人力在補充速度上面，坦白講都是杯水車薪，真的很慢，今天不管是警消人員提出相關的團結權、協商權還有相關的爭議權，不給！如果說你們給了，請問遇到人力不足、遇到排班問題，能協商嗎？"],["許簡任視察孟智：人力的部分就是請移民署這邊檢討完之後，如果真的確實有人力的需求，我們會跟行政院來做支持、來爭取，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：銓敘部今天有人來嗎？銓敘部有一個報告實在是太精彩的報告，4個字送給你，叫做「離離落落」。我去年在司法及法制委員會有特別提到，當這些事情你都不好好溝通，然後一個銓敘部變成一個僵硬部的時候，這個事情會越來越糟糕，你不站在基層公務人員的角度去瞭解他們所遇到的樣態，然後積極的協調、協商，找出一個大家可以共識、一個可遵循的方式往下走下去，到時候問題就會越來越大了。所以我那天有特別提到，那天我垂詢的是部長，我問他，當逼到這些基層公務人員跟你魚死網破的時候，他也不管什麼法律，他也不會想什麼規範，他就要跟你拚了，請教你要怎麼處理？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們還是從協商權，讓他多一點協商權。"],["劉委員建國：協商權我剛才就講了嘛，當人力不足的時候，可以協商嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：勤休方式是可以協商的。"],["劉委員建國：勤休可以協商？消防署、警政署、海巡署認為現在人力不足，想進行勤休協商，這個勤休到底是可以協商的項目還是不可協商的項目？你確定是可以協商的項目？"],["朱次長楠賢：可以，新的法是可以。"],["劉委員建國：新的法嘛！還未修法之前是不行嘛，對不對？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們放進去了。"],["劉委員建國：好，當人力不足的時候怎麼協商？"],["朱次長楠賢：就是協商啊！看看是增援，還是怎麼樣。"],["劉委員建國：就協商？你教我怎麼協商，好不好？這個team、這個單位缺了10%到20%的人力，排班就排不出來，他要跟你協商，你怎麼協商嘛？你教我一下啊！怎麼計算？怎麼溝通？怎麼協調？怎麼下紀錄？怎麼協商？你修的新的法律裡面怎麼依據協商？沒有辦法，不要在那邊隨便亂唬弄啦！不要再「零零落落」了！去年問的時候也是這樣，你們部長答詢我也是這樣，今天你代表來還是答成這樣，可以協商！缺乏人力的時候怎麼協商？還是可以協商？請教你，怎麼協商嘛？這實在讓人生氣！謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢，我們禮拜三會來處理。","接下來我們請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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真正到退休大概就是100人以內其實這個是有相當的差距"},{"start":392.928,"end":418.816,"text":"為什麼每次都會這麼多人提出要退休?是不是跟我講的嘛?就是滿25年就可以提退休嘛,對不對?對。一般外勤啦,內勤是不...但是2021年是368人提出啦。2022是433啦齁。2023去年是525嘛。那今年喔?今年已經達到555了。結果實在持續往上嘛。那你們有掌握這個狀況是什麼狀況嗎?是不是他們所講的不練戰不如歸去啊?"},{"start":422.651,"end":445.961,"text":"什麼原因嗎?他們是在做無聲的抗議,然後你們也視若無睹。這個警察能力是不足啦。你知道現在在固守我們立法院的這些員警的缺額大致上是保持多少嗎?你們知道嗎?"},{"start":447.066,"end":469.252,"text":"其實這個車餌目前全國警察的車餌大概4千多名。人力一直不足一直補不到位。那這個主要是因為容性量的問題。那你人力不足的時候你排班會不會出問題?會嘛對不對?目前來講我們...你敢說沒有問題?你要講清楚喔!這麼多單位喔!你轄管這麼多單位喔!"},{"start":470.216,"end":471.977,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":488.491,"end":501.5,"text":"委員,我想這一部分目前我們應用的辦法是其實行政院就我們警察目前的治安狀況有特別增加4000多名的預算援友那這個原來是重點你們補了嗎?還是沒補嗎?還是補不到嗎?4000多援友已經補了"},{"start":507.144,"end":524.099,"text":"當然目前每一年還是會有缺額只是說這四千多名目前整個警力應用的狀況行政院原來是規定我們要分十年這四千多名要歸還那目前我們還在實際上這一部分可能"},{"start":524.599,"end":554.565,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":555.574,"end":582.982,"text":"就是全部的現金的一個狀態嘛對不對你請休息一下好不好那有請法務部的參事我們目前面對到這麼大量的詐騙的這個案嘛司法能力嚴重不足那法務部也爭取到11年到14年分4年要增加司法能力600人嘛相關細節我就不講了檢察官50人檢察司務官250人然後搭搭搭也包含華警50人我請教一下目前的人力"},{"start":584.548,"end":603.393,"text":"人力到位狀況怎麼樣目前的人力很適當嘛對不對到明年就四年滿了嘛對不對對阿這些人現在補齊了怎麼樣應該都還是在進行中還是沒有幾成嘛幾成600已經達標幾成了剩下一年半的時間"},{"start":605.573,"end":620.981,"text":"委員是不是這個可以容我回去有這個... 所以你沒有掌握嗎?好,那我再請教一下,我們在去年在司法法制委員會議有幫檢察官來爭取這一個檢察官助理100名,應該到位了嘛。那法務部自己在提出要再爭辯150名,確定了嗎?"},{"start":626.751,"end":652.107,"text":"這個部分是檢察司的業務我想我回去可以請他們再提供比較精確的數字給委員所以你不清楚好謝謝那就請回我現在還是要講人力的問題不管從警察人力不管從司法的人力不管從那個移民所專勤隊的人力五百多名要去面對八萬多名的這些逃逸外勞怎麼去面對內政部內政部"},{"start":658.548,"end":676.999,"text":"大家在關注警察能力消耗能力在補充速度之上坦白講都是杯水車薪啦出門的啦好那今天這些不管是警消的能力在提警消的人員在提出相關的這些團結權還有我們的協商權還有相關的這個爭議權不給你們給了遇到人力遇到排放問題能協商嗎"},{"start":690.307,"end":706.587,"text":"人力的部分的話就是請那個移民署這邊檢討完之後若真的確實有人力的需求我們會跟行政院來做支持來爭取謝謝全序部今天又來嘛全序部有個報告實在是太精彩報告四個字送給你叫做哩哩浪浪"},{"start":710.919,"end":738.372,"text":"我去年在市委會特別提到說當你這些事情都不好好溝通然後一個情緒部變成一個僵硬部的時候這事情會越來越糟糕你不站在基層公務人員的角度跟他們的這樣的一個遇到這樣的樣態然後去積極的去協調、協商找出一個大家可以共識的一個可遵循的方式來往下走下去那到時候問題就會越來越大了"},{"start":739.476,"end":755.607,"text":"所以我那天有特別提到,我不曉得那天是部長,我在全巡邏是部長,我問他嘛,你當逼著這些基層工人員跟你魚死網破的時候啦,他也不管什麼法律,他也不管什麼規範的,他就要跟你拚了。請教他,你要怎麼處理?我們還是從這個協商權啊,讓他多一點協商權。那協商權我剛才就講了嘛,當人力不足的時候可以協商嗎?"},{"start":767.118,"end":796.077,"text":"這擬修方式是可以協商的?擬修可以協商?消防署、警政署、海巡署認為現在人力不足,想進行擬修協商。這個擬修到底是可以協商的項目還是不可協商的項目?你確定是可以協商的項目嗎?可以。新的法是可以。新的法嘛。還未修完之前是不行嘛,對不對?我們已經放進去了。好。啊當人力不足的時候怎麼協商?就是協商啊。看看是真元還是怎麼樣。就協商。"},{"start":797.039,"end":819.855,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":823.134,"end":826.956,"text":"沒有辦法不要在那邊隨便亂呼嚨啦不要再哩哩啷啷啦去年問的時候也是這樣你們部長答詢我也是這樣今天你代表來還是答詢這樣可以協商啊吹喚的例子說怎麼協商還是可以協商請教你怎麼協商嘛這是要紅手機啦謝謝主席"},{"start":852.551,"end":852.611,"text":" »:謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"152458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734d04b22a86cdcd378ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d3678eecdf53964765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:02:52 - 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謝謝委員那跟委員報告因為新南向產西國際專班的這部分因為他的協志有好幾個不同的學制那所以總共到目前是兩萬多一點的學生那畢業的部分目前是五屆因為他陸陸續續還會在"},{"start":103.343,"end":105.605,"text":"新南向產系專班推動初期,學校在招生過程中"},{"start":127.06,"end":128.08,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":154.247,"end":160.451,"text":"如果在學校做實習或是勞基法所同意的打工是非常清楚的規範也就比較不會有過去那一種是假求學之民可能來臺灣他就一直在努力工作要去償還他來臺灣的那些經費所以我想這一部分目前看起來我們所掌握到的包含照後面的這幾個計畫"},{"start":177.503,"end":180.264,"text":"謝謝部長,因為我本身就來自越南,所以我們就歡心說最多的就是越南學生來台南"},{"start":203.095,"end":223.221,"text":"是,所以我們希望說他們在這邊來到這邊不容易啦畢業後就是看起來比較少所以我們覺得說比例在比較低所以比較關心還有說他們畢業在這邊的就業所以說有一些多元的選擇的話也是更好的啦所以在我就是"},{"start":224.381,"end":252.971,"text":"在世界總會回到越南有跟去拜訪外交部外交部也是覺得是說剛才我們部長有講說因為之前都是因為學校都通過仲介來去招生導致很多就是剝削讓學生沒辦法專心就業又沒辦法有錢連吃飯都沒有都吃泡麵很多都是這樣子所以到現在我們也說我們的教育部"},{"start":253.291,"end":254.251,"text":"而文這個部份在"},{"start":276.698,"end":278.9,"text":"主要學校一定要有這個責任把學生從越南找到我們台灣來求學對於這些學生的狀況要充分的掌握這部分也是我們課以學校責任的"},{"start":291.775,"end":292.816,"text":"臺灣的招生負責國外的招生"},{"start":321.475,"end":328.679,"text":"委員這個基地設了後會再以他們要服務的學生跟地域的多寡我們本身就會支持這個重要的基地的費用如果有需要再擴展因為他們很多也可能要結合當地的人士來幫忙這個制度其實是已經把它比較好的建構起來了"},{"start":348.848,"end":360.567,"text":"好希望就是說我們國內國外還有就是人力這樣子足的話委員如果有機會也透過你熟悉的組織多鼓勵越南青年到臺灣來求學了OK好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152457","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734c78385335780286fba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d703828fa4814d4fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:53:59 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您的任期是7年多剛聽到您說2300多天"},{"start":441.824,"end":448.73,"text":"2645天是算到520前還是算到今天算到519您這個7年多的任期我擔任的立委4年半算是超過一半的時間有看到您的認真努力那也要跟您講過去其實我並不太溫暖"},{"start":464.403,"end":491.725,"text":"在今天這個質詢前我的助理主動說應該要送一張卡片給您我就欣然接受所以我們辦公室寫了一張卡片要送給潘老師聽說你最喜歡這個稱呼比部長還要好那真的非常的感謝這個教育路上有您真好您真的都非常的認真努力回應然後對相關的政策非常的謹慎而且也非常的熟悉那我就把我這最後時間"},{"start":492.346,"end":492.366,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152456","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734762569cdcef7f403076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4daebedc42957354b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:57:27 - 12:01:31","影片長度":"00:04:04","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":244,"end_time":"2024-05-13T12:01:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:57:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.88221875,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.855968750000002,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.204093750000002,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.30909375,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.156593750000006,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.46409375,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.79284375,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.32846875,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.47346875000001,"end":85.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.83596875,"end":145.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.42596875,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.52721875,"end":150.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.23534375,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.00284375,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.21784375000001,"end":156.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.91784375,"end":158.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.80784375000002,"end":159.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.71909375,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.10909375,"end":184.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.21721875,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.74409375000002,"end":192.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.82784375,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.13346875000002,"end":226.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.57971875,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.83096875,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.47221875000002,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.50096875000003,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.58534375000002,"end":235.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.65221875,"end":237.83346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.189,"text":"委員來質詢三分鐘。"},{"start":17.951,"end":35.408,"text":"我想我們就這個原文會薪資結構的問題繼續來做討論那這一張我們再看一下這也是原文會跟公司薪資結構的比較那不管是這個最低的平均薪資或最高的平均薪資原文會員工的薪水"},{"start":35.828,"end":38.129,"text":"中副主委你覺得這個差異這個問題在哪裡?你覺得他們"},{"start":66.276,"end":85.285,"text":"這樣都沒有問題嗎我覺得應該差異大我講對他們的生活環境跟品質應該還是有差別所以我們現在也在檢討院會也有提出需求那當然這個部分在111年6月有曾經調新過那時候調4%不過那已經有好幾年前的事那以物價上漲來講還是差距很大"},{"start":86.926,"end":106.352,"text":"是那很高興你有這樣的提認所以我想接下來我會有一些比較具體的一個建議那我們再來看一下就是這是歷年軍工叫薪資調整的幅度那中央社的員工呢他們這個整個薪資結構就是跟著軍工叫薪資調整那軍工叫2005年調整3%"},{"start":110.593,"end":119,"text":"那一年原民台剛成立我們就姑且不去算這3%但是2011年、2018年還有2022年以及2024年這四年軍工教薪資調整比例共14%中央社也就跟著調整14%而原民台成立"},{"start":135.633,"end":138.897,"text":"將近20年這個薪資水準才調整過一次所以在2022年調整4%那副主委這樣子的調整速度對員工會的員工會不會太不公平"},{"start":150.891,"end":174.071,"text":"基本上看起來是比較不公平那近20年來的物價波動應該也不止4%吧是不止那原文會從成立以來軍公教調薪14%再扣掉原文會2022年有調整4%差距10%的部分我希望就是明年可以補齊"},{"start":175.183,"end":178.467,"text":"這次委員會提出8%的調薪,我們會爭取額度外的經費來予以調整。預算要怎麼調整?你們就可以從原民會直接撥補嗎?"},{"start":193.181,"end":207.888,"text":"基本上因為我們撥給元武會是4.621是整個包在裡面含他的薪資的部分所以要擴充他們的經費我們很希望就是用中長城計劃的部分能夠把那個4.621的框架跳出然後能夠增加多一點"},{"start":208.368,"end":230.564,"text":"那我想就是在下個會期預算審查的時候我想我一樣會來提這個決議那就是說本席的要求是希望明年調整10%所以我想我預告了這樣子的一個數字那希望就是說大家可以提早準備好好嗎好 我們看看是不是逐年調整有沒有這個機會"},{"start":232.432,"end":232.672,"text":"非常謝謝陳議委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"152455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734d2ab3f7fbfd8fa8dab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d354b032749305e4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:46:16 - 11:56:39","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":623,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:56:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:46:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時46分）謝謝主席，部長有請。"],["主席：好，有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。我們就直接進入主題，今天兩個部分，一個是剛剛也有委員試圖幫我們解釋勞基法修正的一些東西，我們做一些釐清。第一個，請問部長，試用期如果法制化的話，會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，依目前勞基法，我們的薪資就是不能低於最低工資，絕對不低於。"],["牛委員煦庭：絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障，對不對？所以不會有22K的問題嘛，即便試用期法制化之後……"],["許部長銘春：因為法律規定不能……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，部長不會，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：就不會啦！我就跟你說……"],["牛委員煦庭：不會，好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：現在所有的薪資就是不能低於基本工資啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：不會低於勞基法的保障嘛，沒錯吧？這是第一個。"],["許部長銘春：對，重點在於是不是要打八折的問題啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我講完嘛！謝謝你打臉王定宇委員，因為他造謠會22K，但沒有這個事嘛，因為法律之間不會彼此牴觸。當然八成樓地板的問題，有可能導致定錨效應，這個本席願意承認，但是我們總要把事情講清楚，我們修這個法的初衷，我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例，這幾個都是最近幾年勞資爭議的一些判例。你可以看到有些是真正很弱勢的勞工，比如說，現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5,000，約定薪資2萬6,400，那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7,000啦；油罐車司機應聘薪資4萬，約定薪資2萬6,400；國中英文輔導老師，他4天就離職了，所以試用期長度大概不只4天，但是一樣應聘薪資4萬，約定薪資2萬6,500；技術員3萬4,470到5萬0,930不等，因為看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬，約定薪資2萬5,000，這些案例可能不多，但是部長，既然都打了勞資爭議的官司，你覺得他們存不存在？應該存在對不對？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為本來試用期勞基法是沒有規定，但是我們就是雙方同意、勞僱雙方同意……"],["牛委員煦庭：勞僱雙方同意對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們也尊重，但是所有的試用期，勞工的保障都是要按照勞基法。"],["牛委員煦庭：不低於勞基法，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，都要按照勞基法。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這些基本上就是勞基法的最低保障嘛！我今天提這幾個判例，他2萬6,000是比基本工資2萬7,000低，因為這是112年那個時候，也就是在發生的當下，他就是勞基法的最低工資。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這樣下來，如果鼓勵大家用試用期，就變成會讓雇主，以後所有勞工來我都先試用3個月，而不是看你的專業、能力、技能來決定薪資。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個等一下，時間長短，這些東西我們後面再討論……"],["許部長銘春：我覺得這個部分是……委員，我相信你出發點是好的，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：我是要提醒您，一定要注意勞工的權益。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，內容我們待會會討論，但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會，部長，有這樣子的一群勞工，他人數少，但他是真正弱勢中的弱勢啊！也許你可以講八成，這個數字有點太危險，有可能茲事體大，這本席願意承認，但是我們修這個法的初衷，是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工，希望大家可以瞭解。第二個，我要問部長的問題，試用期有沒有違法？目前的狀況，試用期是不是違法的行為？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，剛才我不是講過了嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有違法對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：法無明文，不表示違法嘛，部長，這樣我們是不是講的比較清楚？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，它的約定我們是尊重，但是我剛剛講重點在於……"],["牛委員煦庭：尊重。不要低於勞基法……"],["許部長銘春：約定的話，你不能……"],["牛委員煦庭：不能低於勞基法的待遇嘛！"],["許部長銘春：因為我們勞基法沒有說試用期的勞工就可以不適用勞基法的規範……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我知道，所以……"],["許部長銘春：所以在勞基法上沒有所謂試用期、非試用期的勞工，我簡單這樣子講，你可以約定……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以約定嘛！所以就不是違法行為，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，不是違法，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是違法，好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：但是所有的規範……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：所有規範只要是照勞基法就可以了。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝部長打臉林靜儀，因為他講試用期是違法……"],["許部長銘春：委員不要講這種打臉不打臉，我現在只是……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為他講說試用期是違法的，今天我們討論法案的內容跟細節……"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員你們的政治攻防是另外一回事，但是我現在講的是法律的規範，我不希望你說我打臉誰，我覺得這樣不好啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案……"],["許部長銘春：我用依法……"],["牛委員煦庭：但沒關係，我們進入實際上的討論……"],["許部長銘春：但是我要跟委員提醒，這個打八折對勞工權益的減損，你真的要慎思啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：我已經公開說了，沒有八折的問題，我們就把這個東西拿掉，因為爭議很大，我也承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎討論……"],["許部長銘春：因為我覺得……"],["牛委員煦庭：但是今天要借用一點點時間，我還有問題要問，現行試用期法無明文規定，你剛剛也講這不是違法，那會不會衍生勞資爭議？有可能，對不對？因為講不清楚嘛！按照現行的法律，是不是勞資雙方講好就好？可是這個講好，口頭講算不算講好？有可能，對不對？如果講好之後反悔，大家不滿意，是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛？應該會吧？來，請部長看一下這個判例，這個判例就是寫說，除非有明確規定、有明文規定，否則這個叫職訓啊！不叫試用啊！這個沒有勞動契約的時候就不是僱傭關係，就會出現這樣子的勞資爭議，所以我今天提這個試用期法制化的概念是因為目前勞資的情況，權利義務關係不明確啊！","第一個問題我要問部長，部長，按現行的狀況下，時間有沒有明文規定？沒有，對不對？有可能3個月、有可能6個月跟9個月，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，要合理啦！不能約定試用期1年、半年，這不合理吧！"],["牛委員煦庭：對，現行是不是講好就好？那有沒有可能超過3個月或者是沒完沒了？有可能有極端的狀況，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：不可能，可能會遇到一些……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。第二個，我要問的是，以現在勞動部的瞭解，各行各業、百工百業是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚地告訴他的勞工做了哪些事可以通過試用期？你有辦法保證大家都很好的做到這件事嗎？應該有困難，對不對？部長，回答一下嘛！"],["許部長銘春：委員，我不知道你的意思是什麼？"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是，大家約定一個試用期的期間，對不對？但是他總要通過一些事情才能夠轉正嘛！這個中間轉正的……"],["許部長銘春：那就看他們雙方約定的內容啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：約定對不對？這個約定有沒有明確？以勞動部目前掌握，它是明確的還是不明確的？不一定明確，對不對？有些公司可能很明顯簽個契約，有些是不是講一講……"],["許部長銘春：對……"],["牛委員煦庭：那講一講，萬一兩邊認知不一樣，是不是也會變成勞資爭議？"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？所以如何通過？這權利義務關係不明確嘛！","第三個，我就要問了，是不是每一個在試用期中討論這些都可以好聚好散？勞工都可以拿到資遣費？不一定喔！在法無明文的情況之下、自立自強的情況之下，有……"],["許部長銘春：法律……沒有，我剛剛講過了，他們有沒有寫這個，都要按照勞基法給資遣費，都要給啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：來，這個判例就是一個沒有給的案例嘛！因為這個判例講的是……"],["許部長銘春：要看他們的約定內容是什麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個判例講的是華航，華航的案例說這是勞雇契約的前期階段，不適用勞基法法定終止事由……"],["許部長銘春：如果他們實質的約定內容是職業訓練，那就尊重，就是怕他們掛羊頭賣狗肉……"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛！所以今天我們討論很多，在勞動現場其實有很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確，衍生了很多的勞資糾紛，我希望在這個場合把修法的初衷講清楚，不要大家在……如果薪資有爭議，我們可以先擱置，但是這幾項，時間、通過的標準、如何好聚好散、確保勞工可以拿到資遣費，我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間，部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法才是啊！"],["許部長銘春：是啊，按照現在規定，他就是要給他相關的……所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法。"],["牛委員煦庭：這些判例告訴你，實務現場有的時候是判勞工輸啊！我是很擔心這樣的狀況啦！部長，這是有可能的，對不對？我希望勞動部去瞭解一下……"],["許部長銘春：但是縱使是法律明文規定了，還是會有爭議在啊！不然為什麼這麼多勞資爭議的調解或是訴訟案件……"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望勞動部做個功課，好不好？也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下，就是說試用期實務上是存在的，在法無明文的情況之下，你們應該累積了很多勞資爭議的判例、狀況跟問題，我開放心態，包含政府也可以提供好的修法意見啊！我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下保障勞動權益……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個案子……"],["牛委員煦庭：給予修法的建議，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：這是個案的判決，我覺得他有些觀點……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，有些不見得……所以有的有判、有的沒判，我們現在討論……"],["許部長銘春：對啊，每個判決其實也都不一樣……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在請勞動部做調查，也就是說，你們瞭解最多實際上勞資爭議發生的狀況，目前針對試用期各項權利義務關係不明確的問題，如果要用修法的方式來保障的話，請你提供一些修法的建議，好不好？這樣子就好了，我們花一點點時間討論，我覺得都OK，但是我希望大家可以面對問題，然後我們逐步來找解決方法。部長，你今天在外面受訪的時候，講的話對我還算滿公平的，你說立意良善，但是討論要周延，我們就往這個方向來前進好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是啊！討論要周延。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，最後一句話，對不起！主席，我今天耽誤很多時間，今天的主題是工會，我提醒一下消防署長，我一定要提醒你一句話，不到一分鐘，署長，拜託。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：工會的事情當然是茲事體大，這本席願意理解，但是我要告訴署長，為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情，就是因為政府現行的機制下，很多基層權益是沒有辦法被充分保證的，我舉一個例子，我曾經在內政委員會，好早以前、幾個月前的質詢中，我就講勤務加給要趕快給，給了嗎？後來有結果嗎？你說要商量一下，然後綜合大家的意見，然後就沒有然後了，我很擔心這樣的狀況一直持續。"],["蕭署長煥章：還沒，臺南跟高雄的部分現在確認中，確認以後我們會整個報到院裡面來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我們上次都討論過，連財源都是由地方自籌，結果這個東西你還有一大堆理由跟藉口……"],["蕭署長煥章：有的是要中央付，不是所有……"],["牛委員煦庭：你有很多的理由跟藉口，讓這東西很慢的時候，當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到，你政府端有政府端的版本，我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚，但沒關係，我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論，但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極，要不然你就是逼著他用組工會的方式來成為談判籌碼，對不對？不也就很難看嗎？對不對？所以我希望加給的部分可以趕快得到正面的回應，可以嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們再來努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。接下來我們請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","盧縣一、盧縣一、盧縣一委員不在。","我們請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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不會對不對"},{"start":52.529,"end":62.855,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是"},{"start":77.103,"end":91.677,"text":"我們總要把事情講清楚我們修正法的初衷我請部長看一下這個表格裡面的範例這幾個都是最近幾年的這個勞資爭議的一些判例你可以看到有些有些真正很弱勢的勞工比如說這個現場工程師應聘薪資4萬5"},{"start":93.518,"end":122.077,"text":"約定薪資2萬6千4,那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦。有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千4。國中應問輔導老師,他4天就離職了,所以適用期長度大概是不止4天。但是一樣應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬6千5。技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等,因為這個看表現決定。業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬,約定薪資2萬5。這些案例也有可能不多,但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司,他們存不存在?"},{"start":123.353,"end":123.773,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":144.23,"end":146.793,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":160.709,"end":161.209,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":180.837,"end":204.826,"text":"主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為"},{"start":208.717,"end":222.445,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第6"},{"start":228.388,"end":243.207,"text":"在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了"},{"start":243.427,"end":248.172,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":258.584,"end":284.554,"text":"沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個都拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議"},{"start":286.363,"end":304.084,"text":"有可能對不對?因為講不清楚嘛。你現在按照現行的法律是不是勞資雙方講好就好。可是這個講好口頭講算不算講好?有可能對不對?那如果講好之後反悔大家不滿意是不是就會造成勞資的糾紛?應該會吧?來請部長看一下這個判例喔。這個判例就是寫說"},{"start":306.126,"end":323.698,"text":"除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長"},{"start":327.552,"end":345.982,"text":" »: 現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月有可能九個月對不對 不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用其他一年啊半年是不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝"},{"start":347.743,"end":365.118,"text":"第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的了解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下"},{"start":370.131,"end":384.799,"text":"委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的目標啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的"},{"start":390.837,"end":412.216,"text":"兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嗎對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嗎第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資產費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有"},{"start":413.496,"end":428.347,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":439.696,"end":461.532,"text":"所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊"},{"start":462.467,"end":479.717,"text":"按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權利義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣子的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的"},{"start":482.899,"end":505.854,"text":"來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦"},{"start":509.256,"end":526.956,"text":"對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好"},{"start":527.737,"end":527.757,"text":"拜託。"},{"start":556.897,"end":573.369,"text":"公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎"},{"start":575.52,"end":595.23,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":595.51,"end":621.781,"text":" »:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用主工會的方式來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加急的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員"}]}},{"id":"152454","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152454","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734ad78d28dd8418362076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4dfe9efda6cd71b21c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:48:39 - 11:56:12","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":453,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:56:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:48:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1071,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時48分）我請鍾副……"],["主席：有請鍾副主委。"],["林委員倩綺：還有客委會的副主委，我之後再請教一下。"],["主席：周副主委，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：好，就麻煩。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：林委員好！"],["林委員倩綺：鍾副，我們認識很久了，我一向秉持一個原則，以前我看各部會在欺負原民會或者是地方各單位對於原民局、處、委員會的態度，我一向不太想質詢我們的同胞，但是我今天實在是帶著語重心長的心情要來對你們這幾年的業務做詢問及總結，另外，也想對你們未來有一些期許，所以第一個，我想先請教一下，請問原住民的博物館在哪裡？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：在高雄澄清湖。"],["林委員倩綺：什麼時候完成？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：預計完成是要8年之後。"],["林委員倩綺：確定嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前預估。"],["林委員倩綺：網路上我們看到的是2032，你確定是8年？因為我們等了好幾個8年，你們……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：2031、2032年。"],["林委員倩綺：現在在我們臺東的史前博物館，你們知道它什麼時候開始蓋的嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這不清楚。"],["林委員倩綺：那什麼時候開也不知道吧！對不對？然後它怎麼樣詮釋卑南文化公園、怎麼詮釋所謂史前的文化或卑南文化，我想這個細節你們可能又更不清楚了，我建議部裡面應該要派人把一直拿掉原住民話語權的任何一個細節要做一個檢討，這個部分我想文化部是主責單位，但是很多東西你們要盯著文化部，或者是在一個平台上，你們要問他們相關的問題，要不然可能本來是我們的話語權，全部被莫名其妙的一些計畫或其他單位的計畫給稀釋掉了。我給你一個建議，史前館從它開始蓋是1998年，然後開幕是2002年；原住民族博物館2016年其實定案了，但是2017年被你們翻案，連民進黨的委員都說這是鬧劇一場，當時本席也看到這個新聞，也感到很無力，因為裡面也有很多我們原住民的夥伴提了一些意見，我現在看到2032年要完成，不要再跟本席糊弄，所有的脈絡本席都很清楚。所以這8年，請問你們在原住民族博物館做了什麼？除了一個很好的場地，當然我很高興為我們族人，就是今天的這個主席，我們族人的辦公室統統要搬遷到原本也是原住民族博物館參與選址的一個地方，我當然為辦公室高興，但是我為我們原住民族博物館在這中間一直被消失感到非常遺憾，請會裡面提一下整體的報告，從2016年之前默默地在做這件事到後來的翻案，到這8年的沒有執行，給本席一個清楚的計畫跟報告。","第二個，本席問一下，請問原住民族的轉型正義在哪裡？我簡單問好了，請問人權博物館裡面有我們原住民的位置嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：人權博物館裡面其實也有轉型正義，個人的部分人權有納在這個裡面。"],["林委員倩綺：好，所以我們就是在博物館裡面的一張，別人看待我們都是博物館裡面的一個標本，請會裡面再做更積極的話語的發言。我問一下，請問現在還在臺北228公園裡面的同胞要往哪裡去？你們知道這件事嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：他們前兩個禮拜好像也開記者會。"],["林委員倩綺：是啊！然後520要撤了嘛！可能他們的無力感也就是這8年對於口口聲聲要對原住民的轉型正義有所作為的政府感到無力了吧！我想會裡面是不是這個部分也應該做一個瞭解跟檢討？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["林委員倩綺：最後，還沒有到最後，最後前一個，請問一下原住民族姓名條例，為什麼上個禮拜還在這個委員會裡面審？本人講一下，在2012年到2013年，本人跟貴委員會的主委是在新北市不同的位置，當時本人在文化局聽到他質詢我們的民政局長有關於姓名條例這件事情，那他應該很清楚這整件事。上個禮拜我看所有的立委，還包括我們高金委員，一直感到很無力的是內政部還給我們很多在現場的一些困境，主委應該在他質詢的時候很清楚地知道這件事情該怎麼做，請問這8年他又做了什麼？要我們所有原住民的委員，在上個禮拜還在針對中央這個姓名條例原住民的部分這麼費心力，我在現場看得非常心痛，看不下去了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，姓名條例是有必要要修正沒有錯。"],["林委員倩綺：好，我講的是照理說……本來就是要修，你們主委在當新北市議員的時候，原住民族博物館他都知道，然後他也知道姓名條例應該怎麼處理，這8年我們原民會做了什麼？最後，蔡英文總統的政見，原住民族自治成就了什麼？不好意思，我也只能說，不是對你們有心情，這幾年還包括我在立法院所看到的，原住民委員的無力我真的感同身受，我們難道要繼續這樣子，不僅是過去被殖民，接下來被我們的行政單位殖民，然後懂的、有話語權的、有能力的人再繼續殖民我們的族人嗎？除了我看到主委這8年學了可以用阿美族語來輾壓所有其他族群的語言，在正式的場合以外，我不知道原民會在原住民的公共事務上成就了什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，跟委員報告，我們有整理這八年施政的報告，可以給委員參考。"],["林委員倩綺：對不起，最後我要問的是，因為客委會的副主委也上來了，可不可以請你們研究一下，畢竟這是內政委員會，你們可不可以有一個共識，因為剛才陳委員在聽，不好意思，副主委您這邊直接對他用客語，我還在想說陳委員是客家人是吧？你們很清楚，他也理解您講的話，你們可不可以有個共識，在這個地方，你們推動族語可能有很強的資源，其他有很多可能部落的代表都沒有在這裡面的人，他們要怎麼樣聽懂你們在內政委員會裡面所有的東西，請達到一個共識，我看剛才陳委員還要去聽你們的翻譯機，達到一個共識好嗎？Maybe你們已經有共識了，這是我今天看到的情況，謝謝客委會，還有謝謝原民會。"],["周副主任委員江杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。其實事實上我們每一個族語都有透過翻譯機，這是第一個。第二個，姓名條例我們在內政委員會已經送出了，然後委員們大家很努力、很認真，也應該會在這個會期三讀通過，以上跟委員報告一下。","登記發言委員除了不在場者之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員張智倫、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢還有未及答復的部分，請相關單位在一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對然後他怎麼樣詮釋這個悲難文化公園怎麼詮釋所謂史前的文化或悲難文化我想這個細節你們可能又更不清楚了我建議部裡面要派人把一直拿掉原住民話語權的任何一個細節"},{"start":101.118,"end":126.506,"text":"要做一個檢討每天我在跟這個部分我想文化部是主責單位但是很多東西你們要盯著文化部或者是在一個平台上你們要問他們相關的問題要不然我們可能本來是我們的話語權全部被莫名其妙的一些計劃或其他單位的計劃給稀釋掉了所以來我給你一個建議實錢館從它開始蓋是1998年然後開幕是2002年那"},{"start":131.608,"end":156.31,"text":"原住民族博物館2016年其實定案了但是2017年被你們翻案連民進黨的委員都說這是鬧劇一場當時本席也看到這個新聞也感到很無力因為裡面也有很多我們原住民的夥伴提了一些意見我現在看到2032年要完成那不要再跟本席呼嚨所有的賣肉本席都很清楚所以"},{"start":158.53,"end":162.281,"text":"這八年請問你們在原住民族博物館做了什麼?除了"},{"start":163.68,"end":184.714,"text":"一個很好的場地當然我很高興為我們族人就是今天的這個主席我們族人的辦公室通通要搬遷到原本也是原住民族博物館參與選址的一個地方那我當然為辦公室高興但是我為我們原住民族博物館在這中間一直被消失感到非常的遺憾那請那個會裡面"},{"start":189.864,"end":207.691,"text":"提一下整體的報告從2016年之前默默的在做這件事到後來的翻案到這8年都沒有執行給本席一個清楚的計畫跟報告第二個來本席問一下請問原住民族的轉型正義在哪裡我簡單問好了請問人權博物館裡面有我們原住民的位置嗎"},{"start":216.175,"end":242.694,"text":"人權博物館裡面其實也有在轉型正義個人的部分的人權有在納在這個裡面所以我們就是在博物館裡面的一張那別人看待我們都是博物館裡面的一個標本這個請會裡面再做更積極的一個話語的發言那我問一下請問現在還在台北228公園裡面的同胞要往哪裡去"},{"start":245.117,"end":249.939,"text":"他們的無力感也就是這八年對於口口聲聲要對原住民的轉型正義有所作為的政府感到無力了吧"},{"start":262.011,"end":279.16,"text":"那我想會裡面是不是這個部分也應該做一個瞭解跟檢討最後還沒有到最後最後前一個請問一下原住民族姓名條例為什麼在上個禮拜還在這個委員會裡面審那本能講一下在2012年到2013年本能跟"},{"start":280.26,"end":307.878,"text":"貴委員會的主委是在新北市不同的位置那當時本人在文化局聽到他質詢我們的民政局長有關於姓名條例這件事情那他應該很清楚這整件事上個禮拜我看所有的立委還包括我們高經委員還一直感到很無力的事內政部還給我們很多的在現場的一些困境那請問主委應該在他質詢的時候很清楚的知道這件事情該怎麼做這八年他又做了什麼"},{"start":308.658,"end":322.739,"text":"要我們所有原住民的委員在上個禮拜還在針對中央這個原住民族姓名條例原住民的部分這麼費心力我在現場看了非常的心痛看不下去了"},{"start":324.837,"end":345.473,"text":"我講的是照理說本來就是要修你們主委在當新北市議員的時候新北市原住民族博物館他都知道然後他也知道姓名條例應該怎麼處理那這8年我們委員會做了什麼最後蔡英文總統的政見原住民族自治成就了什麼"},{"start":348.852,"end":363.058,"text":"現在不好意思齁那個我也只能說因為不是對你們有心情這幾年還包括我在立法院所看到的原住民委員的無力我真的感同身受我們難道要繼續這樣子不僅是過去被殖民接下來被我們的行政單位殖民然後懂得有話語權的有能力的人再繼續殖民我們的族人嗎"},{"start":378.16,"end":403.992,"text":"除了我看到主委這八年學了可以用阿美族語來碾壓所有其他族群的語言在正式的場合以外那我不知道原民會在原住民的公共事務上成就了什麼好 對不起 最後要問的是因為各位會的副主委也上來了可不可以請你們研究一下畢竟這是內政委員會你們可不可以有一個共識因為剛才陳委員"},{"start":405.293,"end":432.73,"text":"在聽那個不好意思副主委您這邊直接對他用客語我還在想說那陳委員是客家人是吧你們很清楚他也理解您講的話你們可不可以有個共識在這個地方在你們推動族語可能有很強的資源那其他有很多可能部落的代表在這裡面都沒有的人那我們要怎麼樣聽懂你們在內政委員會裡面所有的東西請達到一個共識我看剛才陳委員他還要"},{"start":433.59,"end":433.95,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"}]}},{"id":"152453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17349280b2599c661742ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d15031a6dbd7ca5fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:42:44 - 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這個是什麼策略 部長"},{"start":189.655,"end":212.302,"text":"我跟委員報告這個當然時代環境有很大的變化對於學生培養國際移動的這種能力我想各國皆然大概像早期我們大部分的學生都在國內然後比較少數的像公費留學等等的我覺得這個在教育部的政策上也一直比較希望"},{"start":212.902,"end":216.405,"text":"有機會臺灣的學生跟國際交流也歡迎國際的學生來臺灣所以這幾年就如委員所看到這倒不是說把國內的孩子推外對國外的學生來我想在政策上我認為這個已經到了一個學習不應該再有太固定的說永遠都在臺灣這塊土地上"},{"start":235.182,"end":250.039,"text":"另外一個就是事實上也是當然有國際的交流但是是臺灣現在的教育有非常進步以前是因為臺灣跟國際的落差很大所以臺灣現在教育非常好"},{"start":251.36,"end":251.8,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":281.74,"end":282.06,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":301.87,"end":323.908,"text":"圖表可以看得出來粉紅色就是這種實驗每年不斷地在成長可以看得出需求很多我們希望這個更多自主更多開放甚至有一點類似國外的這種實驗跟國內體制不太一樣的這個的需求非常的大"},{"start":325.902,"end":354.495,"text":"但部長有看到這個問題嗎?是,這部分我跟委員報告,這些年因為從教育基本法後,即使臺灣的教育也不斷地在讓家長有更多教育選擇選擇,但是這裡我要提的一個就是說,但是這裡只有到高中,大學高等教育就沒有了,高等教育沒有以後,現在這裡有4萬多人,4萬在就學的這種非正式教育,實驗教育當中,他到這裡,"},{"start":355.756,"end":364.353,"text":"幾乎只有一條路非出國不行因為跟我們的教育體制沒有銜接因為我們沒有實驗型的大學"},{"start":365.487,"end":368.648,"text":"這一點我跟委員報告當然要到完全一個機構現在教育部也核定了一所高校的實驗的這個部分是以人文藝術為主也會展開但是現在"},{"start":390.818,"end":418.998,"text":"現在我跟委員報告的是現在大學的入學當中有一個特殊選才這樣的機制這個機制他也不是會去參考一定要參加入學的學測測驗等等的而這個機制目前也有比較多的學校已經展開這個概念因為委員我現在有看到部長我現在看到有五所大學提出申請只有一所大學現在不只啦委員特殊選才的大學不只五所不只"},{"start":419.318,"end":422.862,"text":"那所是實驗型的大學對實驗型我現在講的是實驗型大學因為現在國小國中到高中後面他們因為關鍵一個他們是不是沒有其他的路徑那剛才報告那個特殊選材的做法其實將近有40校"},{"start":440.662,"end":451.952,"text":"現在有幾所學校啊,像清華啦,交大啦,逢甲但是呢,這一個生多周少嘛,就是入取名額只有30名聽說報名都到達500人,入取率只有6%我應該這樣說啦,因為臺灣的大學就不像高中以下那大學本來就是比較多樣"},{"start":460.58,"end":460.7,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":490.532,"end":491.353,"text":"吳春城教育部長"},{"start":510.726,"end":528.762,"text":"跟部長來提的第三人生的另外一個就是我們對於高齡社會提到的要第三人生大學可以看得出這一方面我們的高教師都沒有一直覺得大學就是給18歲的人來念的60歲以後的人"},{"start":530.623,"end":550.784,"text":"目前這方面的思維部長算是第一個先驅但是要把這樣的思想啟蒙下去你看這一個前幾天的新聞我們中醫藥師的師長去考北藝大圓他的夢然後他還必須要循正規的"},{"start":552.386,"end":555.548,"text":"那為什麼要這麼的辛苦我們的教育為什麼要擋住 擋這個門"},{"start":570.737,"end":599.196,"text":"那OK當然這個所以我再提到了既然我們有一扇門就是教育有實驗教育的這樣的體制他可以排除了各種教育的法規幾乎都可以排除只是看你要不要做而已那所以呢我也認為不要用這種教育法規因為再循那條路線去想我相信一定想不出來的啦是不是可以用這樣的方式來解開第三人生大學的一個"},{"start":600.017,"end":600.737,"text":"法規的限制"},{"start":628.683,"end":646.528,"text":"第二點就是可不可以針對實驗教育在高教鍛煉的這個現況來進行檢討然後第二點是對於第三人生大學運用在這種專科以上實驗教育的可行性是不是可以請教育部因為現在有個小組在進行"},{"start":647.208,"end":647.348,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173413355bb9d556ba48076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4de6d876e4313496955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:42:08 - 11:48:24","影片長度":"00:06:16","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  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沒關係 這邊可以 謝謝好 該 勞委員說明 待會兒 應以稍後禁止出相關的項目啦齁雙非 呃 談和 呃 此順之後啊 應以對地方上 應以有退港的 合葬的 設立行 還有所有 勞 地方創生有相關的事的東西 都一定會找應以維生福利部相關的規定來做 待會兒預想勞委員報告"},{"start":194.028,"end":219.984,"text":"可是就是因為按照衛福部食藥署的規定就會產生被開罰的問題所以當時我們在質詢的時候就拜託兩個委員會必須要跟食藥署跟農業部進行跨部會溝通如果它就是日常而且真實在生活中有在用的那它又作為地方創生或是相關小旅行或是相關創意食材開發的時候難道要叫我們這些年輕的回到部落裡面或是回到村子裡面這些創生的團隊是不是就放棄這些食材"},{"start":221.065,"end":233.345,"text":"所以其實我當然知道你們確實是合法回歸的可是就是因為現行的法規其實對於這些新創食材或是地方創生的團隊在做的有創意的事情其實是有違背的那這個部分我想"},{"start":235.385,"end":255.747,"text":"在上回的孫子後,你又到衛福部那邊又交通開會了,所以在地方創生預期為人特別關心的,在一天內走,你兩下推動香港的法律內政項,那是幾多發展的創意,其實兩下你沒"},{"start":269.679,"end":285.05,"text":"那我想請這個原民會副主委這邊說明一下尤其是我們之前提出的像是老葉或者是月桃那目前最近又有一個新的開發的案例所以我們其實看到是現場所有這些新創料理的困境可是我們一直叫你們要跟食藥署"},{"start":285.35,"end":285.51,"text":"二、邀請二、邀請"},{"start":315.35,"end":315.57,"text":"副主委報告"},{"start":332.237,"end":347.492,"text":"電視台、圓明台在三天前還分享了這個節目老葉精華油我不想拿來檢舉它我要講的是這就是我們日常生活中會用的東西甚至在台東慢食節4月30號分享相關的活動你看一下上面有多少菜色是跟老葉有關"},{"start":348.513,"end":375.254,"text":"那所以我要說的是我不是要你們去檢舉它我希望你們不要誤會而是所有這些創意料理的地方年輕人還有多元族群文化這件事情必須要被尊重所以你們必須要積極跟食藥署溝通讓這件事情在合法合規的情況下之前我也說過你們不管是做問卷也好相關的科學研究證據也好都可以協助地方的年輕人好嗎好謝謝主席謝謝兩位好謝謝陳佩玉委員也謝謝中副主委兩位副主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152451","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152451","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734ffe9ea99d649a2b5ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d00481c2c471a13375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:29:01 - 11:46:11","影片長度":"00:17:10","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":1030,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:46:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:29:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":845,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時29分）主席、各位，大家午安。是不是先請許部長？"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：今天可能是部長最後一次前來列席……","不對，還有這個禮拜三，所以先跟你祝福。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：不過我今天還是要先來談一下健全就業安全體系的問題，我是要談就保法。我們知道就業保險法從2003年開始上路，施行到現在，經歷了兩次重大的危機，就是2008年的金融海嘯和COVID-19的疫情。勞動部認為就業保險法是不是有需要擴大適用對象檢討的必要？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得都可以來討論。"],["林委員淑芬：我是問你有沒有這個必要？我跟你討論的第一個就是擴大納保對象，我們講這個是因為就業保險法的立法意旨，開宗明義就講「為提昇勞工就業技能，促進就業，保障勞工職業訓練及失業一定期間之基本生活」，所以這個很重要。我們看了一下，從就業保險投保單位及人數統計月報，113年2月底納保人數總計730萬9,329人，但是比對人力資源運用調查，譬如112年年底的統計資料，受僱者人數計有930萬6,000人，其中私人僱用者827萬8,000人，所以這樣子來算，就保法依法法定涵蓋的對象，涵蓋率大概88.29%，這種狀況顯示受僱者仍然有11%是被排除就業保險安全網之外，而且我們看到經歷了COVID-19的疫情，透過特別紓困條例提供的就業安全措施，你們已經有經驗了，其實你們排除了自營作業者和65歲以上的勞工，這一個缺失在COVID-19的時候，你們變成無法救濟他們。"],["許部長銘春：我們那時候的補貼是針對無一定雇主跟自營作業者、職業工會，但我記得那時候，只要他有投入災保、有加災保，都有適用。"],["林委員淑芬：你的補貼不是用就保，你是就業安定基金啦！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，那個是特別預算，職業工會那個是我們的。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，職業工會是特別預算啦，但是你們的……"],["許部長銘春：其他的部分是用就安。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，你們的僱用安定措施是來自於就業安定基金啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講的是就保，我第一個跟你討論的是要擴大納保對象，第一個我們就先從要納入所謂的經濟依賴型的自營作業者，關於經濟依賴型，西班牙制定了一個自營作業者法，他有訂定一個經濟依賴型的自營作業者。他指涉的是，習慣而且主要為特定自然人或法人提供勞務，而且該客戶所獲得的報酬達到其經濟或專業活動總收入75%以上的人，這個在德國就是類勞工，在西班牙講的就是經濟依賴型的自營作業者，他在經濟上高度的倚賴於特定的客戶。我們為什麼要講這個？是因為在COVID-19期間，其實你也有看到一些困難、一些問題，當時就在講有必要要檢討將自營作業者納入就業安全網，才不會在COVID-19期間發現制度沒有辦法保障、接不起他們，所以才用安定基金去接。在西班牙是這樣子，他們有定額，然後自願性加入的條款，提供經濟活動上非自願停止的保障，在這種狀況裡面，由他們自行決定要不要加入，而且請領給付的期限或者是承諾簽署個人將積極尋求就業，接受合適的工作，並參與公立就業服務機構提供的特定獎勵、資訊、職業訓練和就業推介為要件。所以針對這個部分，部長或者是部裡面有什麼看法？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，的確經歷COVID-19之後，我們發現這一塊是必須要去做一些討論，看有怎樣一個法制體系可以接住他，所以您剛提的……"],["林委員淑芬：自營作業者，但是是屬於經濟依賴型的……"],["許部長銘春：對，要有一些架構、一些條件……"],["林委員淑芬：他不是所有的自營作業者，是經濟依賴型的……"],["許部長銘春：對，我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：他的報酬收入來自於特定客戶75%以上的依賴度。"],["許部長銘春：因為過去的困難是在於失業的認定，如果像這種經濟依賴型會比較容易去判斷。"],["林委員淑芬：所以這個應該可以檢討？"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得可以檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：好，第二個擴大納保的對象就是跟我們今天講的有關，當我們在講要取消掉法定的強制退休年齡，不得強迫65歲以上的勞工退休，在這種狀況裡面，我們看到推動中高齡再就業，如果要持續開發65歲以上的勞動力，我們也應該要提供就業安全的保障啊！所以在這種狀況裡面，65歲持續就業的，65歲還在上班，其實他某種程度對於經濟上的需求，相對倚賴這個工作的程度是高的，等於沒有工作，他的經濟就受衝擊了，所以他也需要非自願性離職時的薪資填補需求啊！也要給他就業安全的保障啊！所以在這種狀況裡面，你們大概也都討論過，你們也有共識要取消65歲的年齡限制了，但唯一你們討論的是，如果65歲了，已經有請領勞保老年年金給付的人，他的核算方法、給付的方法要怎麼算吧？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：大家都有共識，你要鼓勵勞參率再更高，就業的年齡不要限制等等，所以你要有配套，當然失業給付也是其中一個配套，如果65歲以上可以納保，也可以請領失業給付，那你們目前研議的方向是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實這個部分，我們那時候討論，像日本是只發給一次性的失業給付，就不是六個月這樣子。像韓國……"],["林委員淑芬：您是說已經請領勞保老年給付之後？"],["許部長銘春：對，他如果失業，我們就給他一次性的給付。"],["林委員淑芬：好，韓國是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：韓國是只給他促進就業措施，他是沒有給失業給付。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我覺得這個值得討論，沒關係，你們再去討論，因為我覺得這個議題一定要看到。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我們大家講65歲的門檻要拿掉的時候，我們當然要給他就業安全的配套，這是擴大納保對象。另外一個是我們覺得應該檢討不合理的給付規定，其中一個就是縮短失業給付等待期14天改成7天，因為我們現在在講，你必須要有14天的等待期，確定你是無法推介就業或安排職業訓練，你真的是努力了，這14天等一下。但是我現在要告訴部長，14天等待期之前，要請領失業給付的第一關就是非自願性離職的，而且他本來就要到公立就業服務機關辦理求職登記日，他已經有去辦理了，你還叫他等14天，你覺得14天沒什麼，可是對很多人來講，這14天的生活衝擊很大的也有，因為第一個，他是非自願性離職的，然後在這種狀況裡面，失業給付本來要發揮的就是急難、救急，它是一個及時雨，要幫助勞工度過這個難關，更何況ILO促進就業和失業保護公約第十八條第一項有講到，如果成員國的立法規定在全失業的情況下，指有在等待期，期滿後才能開始支付津貼，但這一個等待期不得超過7天。ILO講的是如果要等待期，其實不能超過7天。而我們現在就業失業給付的等待期是14天，比ILO建議的還要嚴格。如果你去參考日本雇用保險的失業津貼，非自願離職多數不可抗力的理由離職，離職後，日本也是7天，當然日本比我們更優渥，因為他們還有自願離職的給付，但我們今天暫時就不討論這個，所以部長，這個有沒有檢討的空間呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，有，我們其實內部有討論，認為應該是要再縮短，比照ILO的標準。"],["林委員淑芬：很好，可以做得到。","那我再講第二個要降低的不合理的給付規定，就是要降低啟動延長失業給付門檻，現在失業給付是6個月嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：45歲以上還有身障門檻低的，大概延長給付到9個月，當然我們現在規定最長是12個月，不過條件比較嚴苛，但是45歲以下的，我們就規定必須要條件比較嚴格，就是就保失業率再加上中央主計機關發布失業率，連續4個月未降低，才能領到9個月，或者是你要領12個月的話，必須就保失業率再加上……就保失業率大家都要到3.3%以上嘛！然後再加上中央主計機關發布失業率連續8個月沒有降低，這個外部條件都符合了，才能讓你延長領到9個月或12個月。","我們查了一下，以勞動部112年2月14號交付立法院的就業保險延長失業給付機制的改進方案來看，你們認為因為財務安定性還有就保資源的運用順序，就是以促進就業優先於延長失業給付為原則，所以在這方面，你們認為應該還是要維持原狀，看起來你們還是認為要維持原狀，你們所持的理由是如果讓延長失業給付可以領到9個月、12個月的話，會影響失業勞工的求職意願，會造成失業勞工減緩找工作的動力。","我們今天也要再提醒部長，最後一個要提醒的就是，就業保的給付除了失業給付，還有一個其實是很不錯的，就是提早就業獎助津貼，制度上我們也提供了誘因，並不是說你繼續領、領越長越好，其實你早一點去就業、找到工作，我們也有津貼嘛！所以我們是希望提早就業津貼也有配套，你卻刻意讓延長失業給付的門檻這麼高，讓我們看得到吃不到，也很難發揮就業安定的政策效果，因為真的有人真的很難找工作，其實很多因素。","第二個理由，我要跟你討論的是就業保險失業率本身就是一個落後指標，你們要讓他領那9個月、12個月，都要看就業保險失業率，再加上社會的整體失業率。可是我們講就業保險失業率是一個落後指標，在COVID-19的時候，你們自己就深受其害、就知道了，我很久以前就跟你們說，減班休息、無薪假，你們這一個門檻，就業保險失業率要連續3個月達到2.2%以上太高，所以你們修正下降到1.1%，可是在COVID-19疫情的衝擊下，你們現在才發現連1%這樣的規定……因為它是落後指標嘛！來不及啟動受COVID-19衝擊的這些人，所以你們要提安心就業計畫，結果你們沒有法源、沒有辦法有錢來給他們，後來才變成說拿就業安定基金去紓困嘛！後來光是就這一點，你們把1%的啟動門檻也拿掉了，所以你們就改由僱用安定措施的諮詢會議去取代這幾percent的規定，比較有彈性嘛！同樣的，我們也是希望延長失業給付這樣子的條件和門檻應該要更有彈性，你一直把它綁在……","你都知道就業保險率是落後指標，而且是來不及反應，也來不及承接這一些失業的勞工所需要、生活上的衝擊，所以是不是也應該要一併的檢討？這樣的一個落後指標應該取消，而且更應該要彈性化一點，並且降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻，簡單的說，失業給付6個月要延長到9個月、延長到12個月，你現在的指標和門檻應該要檢討了，這樣子可不可以？"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，這個部分我們來檢討，我覺得應該要檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：你要走了，你要交給下一任的部長。"],["許部長銘春：可以，沒問題，列入交接事項。"],["林委員淑芬：業務單位……"],["許部長銘春：業務單位在這裡啦！"],["林委員淑芬：業務單位要記得，在這裡承諾的喔！65歲以上要納保，經濟依賴型的自營作業者也要納保，要縮短失業給付等待期14天變成7天，然後要降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻，就這四個。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：要列為重點交接喔！"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員淑芬：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們委員會持續監督，謝謝林淑芬委員。接下來請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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從2003年開始上路施行到現在經歷了兩次的很重大的危機就是這個2008年的金融海嘯還有這個COVID-19的疫情那勞動部認為這個《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》是不是有需要擴大適用對象的檢討的必要"},{"start":64.161,"end":65.225,"text":"除此之外,是否有必要?"},{"start":73.513,"end":96.686,"text":"我跟您討論第一個就是擴大納保對象。那我們講這個是因為這個就業保險的立法一旨一開中民意就講勞工的就業技能促進提升勞工的就業技能促進就業保障勞工職訓及失業一定期間的基本生活所以這個很重要"},{"start":97.446,"end":101.849,"text":"那我們看了一下從這個就業保險投保單位及人數統計月報113年2月底納保人數總計7309,329人"},{"start":114.278,"end":137.958,"text":"但是呢比對人力資源運用調查比如112年年底的統計的資料受僱者人數既有930萬6千人那其中私人僱用者827萬8千人所以這樣子來算的話就保法依法法定涵蓋的這個對象涵蓋率大概88.29%"},{"start":141.101,"end":143.742,"text":"兼具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案"},{"start":162.052,"end":189.528,"text":"人排除了自營作業者和65歲以上的勞工這一個缺失在COVID-19的時候你們變成說無法救濟他們我們那時候那個補貼是針對無一定僱主跟自營作業者職業工會但我記得那時候只要他有投入債保有加債保的你的補貼不是用救保啦你是就業安定基金啦"},{"start":192.152,"end":195.973,"text":"僱用安定措施是來自於就業安定基金,那我現在講的是這個救保。"},{"start":209.497,"end":213.359,"text":"我第一個跟你討論就是要來擴大納保對象第一個我們就先從這個要納入所謂的經濟依賴型的自營作業者經濟依賴型的話如果從西班牙制定了一個自營作業者法他有訂定一個經濟依賴型的自營作業者"},{"start":236.59,"end":239.733,"text":"其中一人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":256.391,"end":259.155,"text":"兼具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":272.524,"end":291.192,"text":"μη在COVID-19期間其實也有看到一些困難一些問題當時就在講說有必要要檢討將自營作業者納入就業安全網才不會在COVID-19期間發現制度沒有辦法保障接不起他們所以才用這個安定基金去接"},{"start":291.852,"end":309.889,"text":"獎項獎項獎項"},{"start":310.009,"end":335.111,"text":"而且這個擬具的這個期限或者是說承諾簽署個人將積極尋求這個就業接受合適的工作並參與公立就業服務機構提供的特定獎勵資訊職業訓練和就業推薦為要件所以這個部分部長或者是我們部裡面有什麼看法?包委員"},{"start":337.199,"end":337.359,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":353.899,"end":373.797,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":373.797,"end":398.524,"text":"但第二個擴大納保的對象就是跟我們今天講的有關的當我們在講說要取消掉這個法定的強制退休年齡然後不得這個強迫退休65歲以上的勞工那這種狀況裡面我們看到推動中高齡在就業如果要持續的開發65歲以上的這個勞動力那我們也應該要提供就業安全的保障啊"},{"start":399.344,"end":420.211,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面65歲持續就業的他如果遇到你試試看65歲跟在上班的其實某種程度他在經濟上的對經濟上的這個需求其實相對的依賴這個工作的程度是高的因為他說沒辦法經濟就受衝擊啊"},{"start":421.932,"end":450.741,"text":" »:所以那也需要這個非自願性離職的時候的薪資填補的需求啊也要給他就業安全的保障啊所以在這種裡面其實針對你們大概也都討論過你們也有共識要取消65歲的年齡限制了但唯一你們討論的是說那如果65歲了已經有請領這個老保老年年金給付的人他的核算的方法給付的方法要怎麼算吧那你們"},{"start":452.941,"end":476.666,"text":"公視,勞參率要更高,就業年齡不要限制,所以你要配套啊,配套的話當然是失業給付也是其中一個配套啊。那這個65歲以上可以請領納保,也可以請領失業給付的話,那你們目前研議的方向是怎麼樣?"},{"start":481.024,"end":506.809,"text":"報告委員其實這個部分我們現在日本是我們那時候討論就是說像日本他是只發給一次性的失業給付他就不是六個月這樣子然後像韓國你說在已經請領老保老年給付之後對那他如果失業我們就給他一次性的給付那韓國是怎麼樣那韓國他是"},{"start":508.031,"end":510.815,"text":"兼具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":525.394,"end":551.284,"text":"),委員彭大納保對象,另外一個是我們覺得應該檢討不合理的給付規定。其中一個就是縮短失業給付等待期14天改成7天。因為我們現在在講說你必須要14天的等待期,那確定你是無法推介就業或安排職業訓練,你真的是努力了,這14天等一下。"},{"start":553.1,"end":581.891,"text":"但是我現在要告訴你說部長14天等待期之前你要請你失業給付的第一關就是你是非自願性的離職的而且他本來就要到公立就業服務機關辦理求職登記日他已經有去辦理了那你還叫他等14天我是說現在因為你覺得14天沒什麼可是對很多人來講這14天的這個生活衝擊很大的也有"},{"start":582.832,"end":583.537,"text":"因為那第一個 嗯"},{"start":585.677,"end":610.034,"text":"他是非自願性離職的啦。非自願性的離職然後在這種狀況裡面失業給付本來就要發揮的就是急難、救急他是一個及時雨那要幫助勞工度過這個難關那更何況 ILO促進就業和失業保護的公約第18條第1項他有講喔謝謝"},{"start":612.936,"end":626.122,"text":"如果成員國的立法規定在全失業的情況下是有在等待期,期滿後才能開始支付津貼,但這個等待期不得超過7天。"},{"start":628.423,"end":635.965,"text":"而我們現在的就業失業給付的等待期14天比ILO建議的還要嚴格如果你去參考日本的僱傭保險的失業津貼非自願離職多數不可抗力的理由離職離職後日本也是7天當然日本比我們更優渥因為他們還有自願離職的給付"},{"start":658.477,"end":683.215,"text":"自願離職的給付但我們今天暫時就不討論這個所以這個部長這個有沒有檢討的空間呢?包括委員有我們其實內部有討論吶吼那認為說應該是要再縮短再縮短比照ILO很好標準吶好那可以做得到那我再講第二個要降低的這個不合理的給付的規定就是要降低啟動延長失業給付門檻現在失業給付是6個月嘛"},{"start":688.298,"end":701.983,"text":"之五歲以上還有身障可以自動門檻能低的大概延長給付到九個月。當然我們現在規定是最長是所有個月,但條件比較嚴苛。但是45歲以下的"},{"start":706.445,"end":708.866,"text":"),委員我們就規定說你必須要有條件比較嚴格就是你的這個舊保失業率再加上中央主計機關發布失業率連續4個月未降低才能領到9個月或者是你要領12個月的話必須舊保失業率"},{"start":731.435,"end":748.155,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及中央組織機關發布事業率連續8個月沒有降低,這個外部條件都符合了,才能讓你延長領到9個月或12個月,所以"},{"start":749.015,"end":751.017,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":778.635,"end":795.862,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第17期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18"},{"start":802.185,"end":823.027,"text":"其始就業保險的給付除了失業給付還有一個其實是很不錯的就是提早就業獎助津貼制度上我們也提供了誘因並不是說你繼續領領月長月老其實我們你早一點的去就業找到工作我們也有津貼嘛"},{"start":824.128,"end":852.529,"text":"所以這個東西我們是希望說這個津貼講提早就業津貼也有配套所以你卻刻意讓這個延長失業給付的門檻這麼高讓我們看得到吃不到那也很難發揮就業安定的政策效果因為真的有人真的很難找工作了其實很多因素很多因素那第二個理由是說"},{"start":854.111,"end":868.124,"text":"我要跟您討論說就業保險失業率本身就是一個落後指標。你們要讓它0到9個月角12個月都要看就業保險失業率再加上社會的這個整體的失業率可是呢"},{"start":868.524,"end":895.623,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":895.663,"end":912.55,"text":"人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 ﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第四條及第六"},{"start":919.813,"end":927.156,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16次全體委員會議及第16"},{"start":943.002,"end":963.159,"text":"同樣的我們也是希望你說延長失業給付這樣子的條件和門檻也應該要更有彈性你一直把它綁在你都知道就業保險率是落後指標而且是來不及反映也來不及承接這一些失業的勞工所需要的生活上的衝擊"},{"start":965.08,"end":981.388,"text":" »:所以是不是也應該要一併的檢討這樣的一個落後指標應該取消而且更應該要彈性化一點那降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻簡單的說啦失業給付6個月要延長到9個月延長到12個月你現在的指標和門檻應該要檢討了這樣子可不可以謝謝委員這個部分我們來檢討我覺得應該要檢討"},{"start":992.953,"end":997.996,"text":"議員,你要走了,你要交給下一任的部長。業務單位要記得喔,在這裡承諾的喔。65歲以上要納保,經濟依賴型的這個自營作業者也要納保。然後這個要縮短失業給付14天變成7天喔。然後要降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻喔。"},{"start":1023.454,"end":1026.777,"text":"), 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"}]}},{"id":"152450","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152450","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17342f35adc9d116741cba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d3df04c9d932d26475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:29:35 - 11:42:39","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":784,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:42:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:29:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好，剛剛從前面的委員質詢中聽到一個訊息，就是部長說昨天召開的一個本土語言會議有提到……"],["潘部長文忠：上個禮拜。"],["張委員雅琳：會議中有提到，未來可能也會結合AI的運用在語言學習的部分，我聽到的時候覺得非常的振奮，也期待接下來如果有相關的執行計畫，可以提供到我們辦公室。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：再來就是剛剛也有委員提到有關於雙語國家的政策，這部分我覺得雖然AI未來可以幫助大家學習這些語言，但是雙語國家這個政策還是要持續的推動下去，因為像我自己過去在異鄉工作這麼多年，在社交場合怎麼去理解他們的文化，跟他們做很多所謂的small talk，這件事情還是需要透過學習才有辦法做到，所以未來在雙語政策上可能還要加強其他面向的學習，配合AI的運用，這點我還是相當肯定。","接下來就回到今天的主題，去年有一個促進國際生來臺暨留臺的實施計畫，目前就是透過新型專班給與獎學金，希望強化他們課業結束之後能夠留在臺灣，在這個計畫中分成國家重點領域、國際合作聯盟跟國際產學教育合作聯盟，前者主要是跟歐美國家做一些學術交流，產學教育合作聯盟就是以新南向國家為主，開設新型的專班跟推動師生交換。我自己在索資的時候發現，新型專班現在教育部核定了35個學校、123班、2,301人，但是去年實際上招收人數是1,200人，我知道人數的部分可能涉及了經費，補助機票、行政費、學費等等，有預算的問題，第一、我想知道新型專班還在招生中嗎？招生的情況如何？如果今天超過1,200人，超過的經費要如何來支應？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員，在整個國際招生這部分，兩大聯盟的意義相較於過往其實是一個很大的突破。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：以往大學都是各自到自己想要去招生的地方招生，有點單打獨鬥，這一次透過學術聯盟和產學國際聯盟的概念，事實上是大家一起合作的模式。我跟委員報告，剛才委員提到的新型國際專班，目前總共有197個企業共同合作，因為就是他們希望未來有人才可以在他們的企業裡面工作，所以目前委員在螢幕上所呈現的是當時的目標值。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["潘部長文忠：目前數字是比這個更高。當然來自於國發基金，因為就是為了不排擠教育預算，還有企業贊助的部分，本來就有這樣一個彈性空間，因為當時我們在做計畫……"],["張委員雅琳：所以經費沒有問題，對不對？那現在最新的人數是多少呢？"],["潘部長文忠：最新的人數因為還沒到最後核定……"],["張委員雅琳：那大概什麼時候會……"],["潘部長文忠：目前還是會分班，8月應該會告一個段落，到時候再提供給委員。"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["潘部長文忠：因為那算國際新型專班第一次招生，所以到截止為止，到時候詳細的資料，我再請國際司提供給委員參考。"],["張委員雅琳：好。下一個就是境外生的部分，在107年達到最高峰，有將近13萬人，但是可能受到疫情或中生不來，所以人數持續的降低，到這兩年才又重新回升，但是我發現我們的學位生人數沒有明顯的減少，反而是逐年微幅的成長，變動較大的反而是非學位生，也就是短期交流生。我知道我們有一個計畫，是希望在2030年可以累積招募突破32萬人，可是我們現在大概只有1萬人，以這樣的成長幅度來說，2030年要累積到32萬人，這個目標是不是有點挑戰？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，從剛才委員提供的數字可以看得非常清楚，這當中有三年疫情，我們的學位生還是持續增加，研修生因為疫情，國際之間都會管制……"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。"],["潘部長文忠：當時非學位生，本來一班大概占一半，但是如果以這樣的方式到112，學位生加非學位生已經回到十一萬六千多了……"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們現在的重點是，因為我們2030年希望到32萬，可是以現在成長的幅度來說是……"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，因為這裡面結構上還有一個很大的改變，當然臺灣本來就持開放的態度、也歡迎，而陸生的這部分，這幾年學位生幾乎已經歸零了；研修生本來大概到三萬二，現在112學年度也只剩兩千六百多。這個概念也表示，因為兩岸的這些限制……"],["張委員雅琳：我瞭解，沒關係，因為這個不是我今天要詢問的重點。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我講一個，這個結構改變之後，112學年度境外生的大一新生將近兩萬人，這個數字很不一樣。也就是目前的幾個招生政策，加上華語推動的政策，看起來大一新生進來的幅度是增加。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，其實我最主要想要問，因為我們畢竟還是要招募足夠的學生，但是我自己有點擔心，就是我們現在集中在越南、印尼跟馬來西亞，將近占了四成多，我會擔心我們把雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡面似乎有點風險，對於像泰國跟菲律賓，其非學位生都遠多於學位生，在這點上面我們有沒有一些更積極的作法，讓其他的新南向國家可以來臺灣學習？"],["潘部長文忠：是，跟委員報告，我們那兩個聯盟總共會設10個攬才基地，尤其是產學國際聯盟部分，主要目標也以新南向國家為主，所以這10個基地目前設了3個，也就表示我們還會再陸續……"],["張委員雅琳：對，還會再繼續設下去。"],["潘部長文忠：開展，所以對於目前學生還可以再有更多擴展的部分，我們未來會以基地的方式進行。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分現在聽起來應該有一些規劃、計畫，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：有。"],["張委員雅琳：會後提供到我辦公室，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：讓我們瞭解一下。下一個部分是優華語計畫，我們在111年開始推動這個計畫，到現在已經有63個學校，美國占最多數，在紐澳相對來說比較少。我認為這是一個很好的國際交流，讓世界看見臺灣。去年也有新聞報導哈佛來臺灣辦台北書院，而且說這是語言魔鬼專班，我相信這個訊息對華語的學習來說，就臺灣的角色是一個大利多。我們在這方面如何持續地宣揚這件事情，讓更多人選擇來臺灣、做為華語學習的重要基地，這部分目前有一些詳細的計畫或宣傳活動嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，跟委員報告，優華語計畫是我們盤整過去的執行，以更深化的大學對大學之模式進行，因為臺美倡議確實在這上面有很大的推進……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，突破。"],["潘部長文忠：因應美國政府的力量，包含州政府……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，同意。"],["潘部長文忠：所以可以看得出來68校當中，美國占了八成，但是我們不以此為限。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：目前還會持續擴展。剛才委員也關心新南向國家的部分，也許我們不是用教學中心的模式……"],["張委員雅琳：同意，是不一樣的東西。"],["潘部長文忠：事實上基地裡面在做的，當中有一個重要任務也是華語教育的推廣。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，好。"],["潘部長文忠：所以未來我們還是會全面展開包含優華語計畫的這個做法，跟策略聯盟招生的部分會做結合。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以聽起來就是，在剛剛那份計畫裡面已經包含了優華語的計畫，所以這個也一樣，就是我從這個資料裡面應該就可以讀到，那我們會後繼續討論好了。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來，因為我的時間有限，所以我想請體育署署長上來一下。主要是兩個問題，第一個，就是體操協會在4月舉辦亞洲體操青年錦標賽，但是我們的代表隊卻有2個因為年齡不足，雖然上場但不算成績。這件事情不是第一次發生，之前排球協會也有同樣的狀況。體操協會說今年2月因為過去的一個團體運作不佳，所以已經全部換了團隊，新的團隊3月上任，上任了1個月的時間，但卻沒有注意到這件事情，我們要如何避免發生類似的情況？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這個大概是我們在協會裡面的國際組人才，這部分我們接下來有一些方案，可能要協助協會在國際事務這一塊能夠再強化。這一塊主要是去年國際總會那邊發布青少年的年齡層做了修改，變成14至15歲，但是上一任協會，他們在參加烏茲別克賽事的時候，一般主辦國會把年齡放在競賽規程，可是這一次這個國家沒有放進去，他們認為去年總會已經對全世界公告了，所以就不需要放進去，也因為這樣造成一些困擾。這個錯誤，在上一任他們協會運作非常不理想，所以我們才會在今年2月要求他們限期改善或撤換。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但因為也不是第一個協會發生這樣的狀況，所以我想知道的是……"],["鄭署長世忠：對，所以在國際事務人才這部分我們會強化。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這部分要持續強化。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：不然坦白說，對選手來說其實很傷。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：最後，接續這個部分，上上個禮拜安聯小小世界盃──花蓮區預賽發生暴力事件，GOAT勁U8對上北埔國小寶寶隊的2年級學生比賽，這個小孩子不小心把GOAT勁的學生推倒了，結果教練竟然衝到場上去推打這個小球員。雖然後來有發聲明說這個動手的王姓教練禁賽2年，可是他衝上去打球員的這件事情我覺得是非常不合理的。第二個，這種體罰事件，前陣子有一個北市羽球國小的教練也是持續有這樣子的狀況。現在體育署有教練證的訓練課程，有納入兒少訓練，可是只有1個小時，這1個小時的時數是不是太少了？因為它根本沒有辦法讓教練瞭解如何對一個小球員去做一些訓練及瞭解其身心靈知能，而且要讓他知道，他今天做了哪些事情是觸犯了相對的法律，絕對不可以執行！我們現在這個課程是不是還可以做一些重新的盤點跟規劃？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這分為兩個部分，第一個部分，雖然這個賽事不是體育署和足球協會的賽事，但是我們一樣通報足球協會必須送紀律委員會，處以禁賽。第二個，我們在兒少的課程，目前取證部分的確只有限制1個小時，也是因為協會抱怨在短短的時間之內要上通識課程，又要上專業課程有其困難。所以這部分我們希望的是可能未來做轉型，比方在實體課程之前必須要上的一些線上課程、知能強化，這部分我們再規劃以取得平衡，也強化兒少部分的訓練。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分大概什麼時候會有一個初步的規劃？"],["鄭署長世忠：委員給我們3個月的時間，好不好？這部分我們先規劃。"],["張委員雅琳：3個月？好，因為……"],["鄭署長世忠：嗯，我們會持續跟委員辦公室溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.12784375,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.91159375,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.856593750000002,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.42909375,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.715968750000002,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.44159375,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.19471875,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","s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talk這件事情還是需要透過學習來做一個辦法做到這件事情所以"},{"start":63.243,"end":63.363,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":87.346,"end":87.846,"text":"張雅琳教育部長"},{"start":108.3,"end":114.264,"text":"推動師生交換那我自己在索資的時候我發現就是說我們在新型專班裡面現在是教育部合訂的35個學校班數123班人數是2301人但是去年實際上招收人數是1200人"},{"start":123.789,"end":124.49,"text":"張雅琳教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":142.329,"end":145.171,"text":"謝謝委員這個確實在我們整個針對國際招生這部分那兩大聯盟的意義跟過往其實是一個很大的突破以往大學都是各自到各別自己想要去招生的地方有點比較單打獨鬥那這一次透過一個是學術聯盟一個是產學國際聯盟的概念"},{"start":168.386,"end":178.869,"text":"市長是大家一起合作的模式那這個當中我跟委員報告剛才委員提到的這些新興國際專班還加上是企業目前總共有197個企業他共同因為未來就是他們希望有人才可以在他的企業裡面來合作來工作所以目前這個委員這個螢幕上所呈現的這個是當時的目標值目前數字是比這個更高"},{"start":197.655,"end":219.013,"text":"當然來自於這個國發基金因為就是不排擠教育預算還有企業的贊助的這部分本來就有這樣的一個彈性空間因為當時我們在做計畫所以我們經費沒有問題嘛對不對那我們現在最新的人數是多少呢?那個最新的人數還沒到最後的核定還在持續是不是?大概什麼時候會停?目前還是會分班如果說8月應該會告個段落"},{"start":225.518,"end":227.7,"text":"我們在境外生的部分在107年達到最高分有來到了近13萬人"},{"start":246.394,"end":269.562,"text":"但是呢這個人數上可能中間涉及到了一個疫情啦或是終生不來所以人數持續的減緩到這兩年才又重新回升到回升但是呢我自己有發現到就是說我們的學衛生人數沒有明顯的減少但是並沒有明顯的減少反而是逐年微幅的成長變動較大反而是非學衛生也就是短期交流"},{"start":271.098,"end":292.093,"text":"那我想知道說因為我知道我們在那個2030年其實有個計畫是希望可以突破累積招募的是32萬人可是我們現在大概只有1萬人這個目標似乎以這樣子的成長幅度來說每年大概只有1萬人要到2030年累積到32萬人這個目標是不是現在有點挑戰呢?"},{"start":292.533,"end":312.435,"text":"我看委員報告 確實在 剛才委員這個數字看得非常清楚 這當中有3年的疫情我們的學位生還是持續增加 學位生那研修生因為當時都是疫情 國際之間都會管制了所以才 當時我們非學位生大概 本來一般大概也占一半"},{"start":312.995,"end":313.155,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":329.198,"end":331.939,"text":"因為這裡面結構上還有一個很大的改變原來當然台灣我們本來就持開放的態度來歡迎那入生的這部分這幾年學位生幾乎已經歸零了研修生本來大概他們到3萬2那現在112學年度也只剩2600多"},{"start":350.943,"end":357.849,"text":"這個概念也表示說因為兩岸的這些限制這個數字這個結構改變之後112學年度國外境外生的大一新生是將近兩萬人這個數字是很不一樣也就是說目前的幾個招生政策加上華語推動的政策我們看起來大一表示是新生嘛進來的速度是幅度是增加的"},{"start":379.367,"end":404.43,"text":"沒關係 因為那個部長 因為其實我最主要想要問的是這個就是說因為我們畢竟還是要去招募足夠的學生啦但是我自己有點擔心就是我們現在集中在這個越南印尼跟馬來西亞就將近佔了四成多那我會擔心的是說我們把雞蛋放在同一顆籃子裡面似乎有點風險那我們對於就像泰國跟菲律賓它的非學衛生都遠多於學衛生"},{"start":405.09,"end":418.473,"text":"在這一點上面我們有沒有一些更積極的做法來去讓其他的國家新南向的國家可以來我們臺灣學習是 各位報告我們那個兩個聯盟總共會設10個攬財的基地尤其是這個產學國際聯盟這部分主要目標也會以新南向國家為主所以這10個基地目前設了3個"},{"start":433.217,"end":433.477,"text":"會後提供到我辦公室"},{"start":451.069,"end":451.229,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":477.142,"end":479.643,"text":"這部分是目前有一些詳細的計畫或宣傳的活動嗎?"},{"start":500.856,"end":504.378,"text":"跟委員報告優華語計畫是我們盤整過去執行以比較更深化從大學對大學的模式來進行那當然因為臺美倡議確實在這上面有很大的推進因為美國政府的力量幫助政府所以可以看得出來68校當中美國佔了八成那但是我們不以此為限目前還會持續的擴展"},{"start":528.214,"end":531.837,"text":"因為我也關心這個新南向國家的部分也許我們不是用那個教學中心模式事實上在基地裡面在做的也是當中有一個重要任務也是華語教育的推廣所以我想未來我們還是會全面的來展開包含優華語計畫的這個做法"},{"start":549.531,"end":549.611,"text":"主要是說兩個問題"},{"start":572.113,"end":589.285,"text":"第一個就是體操協會我們在4月的時候舉辦一個亞洲體操青年錦標賽但是我們的代表隊卻有兩個因為年齡不足雖然上場但不算成績這件事情也不是發生第一次在之前排球協會也有同樣的狀況"},{"start":590.846,"end":609.365,"text":"體操協會其實說今年二月因為什麼過去的一個團體運作不佳所以已經全部換了團隊新的團隊三月上任可是這整個中間應該有交接是有一個月的時間上任其實是有一個月的時間但卻沒有注意到這件事情我們現在要如何避免類似發生這樣子的情況"},{"start":611.031,"end":638.921,"text":"報告委員我想這個大概是我們在協會裡面的國際組的人才這部分我們大概接下來有一些方案可能要協助協會在國際事務這一塊能夠再強化那這一塊主要是他們在去年國際總會那邊發布青少年的年齡層做了修改變14到15歲但是上一任的協會他們在參加這個物質別科的賽事的時候一般主辦國會把年齡放在競賽規程可是這一次這個國家沒有放進去他們認為說"},{"start":639.881,"end":639.921,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":657.637,"end":658.438,"text":"安聯小小世界被花蓮預賽時發生暴力事件"},{"start":673.866,"end":675.027,"text":"王欣教練競賽兩年"},{"start":696.77,"end":714.443,"text":"他鬆上去打球員這件事情我覺得這是非常不合理的第二個是因為這種體罰事件在前陣子有一個北市羽球國小的教練也是持續有這樣子的狀況那我想知道說就是在我們現在這個體育署是有叫做這個教練陣的訓練課程有納入而上訓練可是只有一個小時"},{"start":715.423,"end":733.137,"text":"這個小時的時數是不是太少了因為他根本沒有辦法讓教練了解我如何對一個小球員去做一些訓練而且了解說他的身心靈的一些知能而且要讓他知道說你今天做了哪些事情其實是觸犯了相對的一些法律絕對不可以執行的我們現在這個課程是不是還可以做一些重新的盤點跟規劃呢"},{"start":735.398,"end":758.37,"text":"報告委員這個分為兩個部分第一個部分雖然這個賽事不是體育署跟足球協會的賽事但是我們一樣通報足球協會必須送紀律委員會出於競賽第二個方面的面程是我們在兒少的課程目前取證的部分的確是只有限制一個小時那是也因為協會他們後來抱怨說在短短的時間之內又要上通識課程又要上專業課程有它的困難度所以這部分我們在"},{"start":759.17,"end":759.55,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152449","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152449","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734e00495fe1e0d2da5076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d6d52115be4726d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：鍾副主委，有「財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會監督管理要點」，因為要根據財團法人法，要提升為另外一個辦法，但是有很重要的重點，它不是一般的財團法人，它裡面有更重要的，就是電視台。教文處處長、鍾副主委，你們要考量廣播電視法這個分際，而不是這樣將手插進去，監督要有一個限制。","好，我們看這個，我在109年就質詢蘇貞昌前院長，當時引用了110年度原文會跟公共電視的薪資、員額以及總預算。你看這個預算、員額的差距都那麼大，公共電視今年增加，明年又增加了，這個部分的差距更大。這是109年原文會跟公視的薪資對照，差距真的是非常大，最低的平均薪資跟最高平均薪資的差距都非常大，這是109年質詢蘇貞昌前院長的資料，包括原文會主管的差距。","這是立法院的議事錄，本席在109年10月6號質詢行政院蘇貞昌前院長，我剛才講的幾個部分有非常大的落差，我說請院長及主計長支持並增加這個預算。蘇貞昌前院長109年10月說好，但是到現在都沒有增加，而且差距越來越大。鍾副主委，行政院院長的承諾為什麼沒有落實？你們到底簽辦得如何？提供書面報告，可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，可以，不過跟委員報告，去年針對原文會113年度工作計畫進行第二次審查的時候，我們的審查委員都有建議他們，就有關這個部分希望能夠跳脫4.6億的框架重新思考，都有做這樣的建議。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：鍾副主委，我是原民會的老公務員，知道要主動爭取，我過去就去協調主計長，還要弄什麼中長程計畫？不需要嘛！對不對？從原民台開創成立我們就沒有中長程計畫，編列預算就對了嘛！你看現在薪資差距更大，平均值是4萬8，整個公共電視6萬7，差距那麼大，最高平均值也是一樣，差距那麼大。不要一直講中長程計畫，薪資的處理哪有什麼中長程計畫？對不對？好不好？這個部分請原民會注意，這都是你們要去處理的，你們要協助你們的財團法人，尤其是原住民族的電視台。","好，我們談永久會址，永久會址一開始也沒有規劃，從臺北市南港區重陽路要到桃園大園區，要從羅斯福路過去，這個才是中長程計畫要納入的，你沒有納入，很多都沒有納入啊！這個才是中長程計畫要納入的。勞動基準法第十條之一有規範雇主調動勞工工作，當初規劃的時候就知道要調動，因此應該考慮到勞動基準法第十條之一第四款，調動工作地點過遠，雇主應予必要之協助，要考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益。這個才是中長程計畫要納入的，結果沒有納入，對不對？還包括很多相關的。最主要的像很多工程，包括原民會的工程因為這幾年原物料調漲，各方面都有調整、修正、提高，這個就是要中長程計畫滾動檢討的，結果都沒有做。這個部分要顧及相關交通的補助、遷居的補助、托育的補助、合宜住宅或是社會住宅。請問一下，剛剛一直提到社會住宅，有方向了嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：原文會有跟桃園市政府談過兩次到三次，就是社會住宅的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：結果呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是不是可以請瑪拉歐斯董事長談結果的部分？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：結果呢？"],["主席：請瑪拉歐斯董事長。謝謝。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們還在持續爭取。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是那麼容易，為什麼？在地的原住民都不夠住，所以不是那麼容易，如果沒有放在中長程計畫……有啊！有協調，有溝通啊！但是還是沒有辦法保障，對不對？鍾副主委，住宅法不是你們原民會的業務，回去跟另外一個……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：公建處。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外一個，本席提出並在104年通過的住宅法就規定，原民會要興建專供原住民居住的社會住宅。如果當初就這樣蓋的話就解決了，這個部分就是沒有做，法律已經給你們了，結果你們都沒有做。像今天的報告就這樣，這樣的情形我們看看，原文會都做了意願調查，只有59.4%願意遷過去，14.6%不願意前往，26%尚未表達意見，他在猶豫，不得不工作所以在猶豫，這兩個加起來比例很高，我們應該要兩個加起來，百分之四十幾，這樣的情形，我們必須去解決這些問題。這個就是你們當初在107年開始研擬規劃，一直到行政院109年核定，都沒有納入中長程，這個才是中長程計畫要去納入的，一般的薪資不是中長程計畫，好不好？這個部分請原民會要加油，畢竟主管機關不是只有監督，更重要的就是怎麼樣去爭取相關的員工權益，因為很重要的，流動率本來就很高，現在的流動率就很高了，到了那邊之後，流動率又更高，我為什麼過去一直不是很願意、積極地去針對搬遷，搬遷落成我從來也不去，為什麼？員工的權益沒有被保障，沒有在那裡面，好不好？鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：加油！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，是，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Sa'icelen（加油）！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：Sa'icelen（加油）！"],["主席：非常謝謝鄭天財委員的提醒，也希望原民會、原文會、原語會針對員工的權益真的要顧及到，還有我們文化基金會的預算4.62億，人事就占掉了33%，到底還有多少的預算可以做？包括我們原語會預算2.9億，人事費就花掉13.5%，到底還有多少的預算來做相關的文化、語言、教育的推動？這是你們必須要長期思考、跟原民會趕快來討論的部分，在今天的報告裡面，我們也很遺憾都沒有看到這個部分，你們只是把數據提出來，但是未來想要怎麼解決這些問題，也沒有告訴我們，謝謝。","繼續請陳培瑜委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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政府主委這個行政院院長的承諾為什麼沒有落實"},{"start":160.185,"end":180.464,"text":"你們到底簽辦的如何提供書面報告,可以嗎?是,可以,不過跟委員報告我們去年在審查原文會在113年度的工作計畫第二次審查的時候我們的審查委員都有建議他們就有關這個部分希望能夠跳脫4.6億的框架然後重新思考,都有做這樣的一個建議這個諸副主委"},{"start":181.405,"end":203.692,"text":"我是延民會的老公務員主動爭取我過去就是協調主計長啊去協調都還要弄什麼中長城計畫不需要嘛對不對從延民台的開創成立我們就沒有中長城計畫了就編列預算就對了嘛你看現在的差距更大了"},{"start":205.232,"end":215.687,"text":"現在的差距、薪資的差距更大所以平均值4萬8然後我們的整個公共電視6萬7"},{"start":218.044,"end":245.99,"text":"差距那麼大最高平均值也是一樣差距那麼大不要一直講中長城計劃心智的處理哪有什麼中長城計劃呢對不對好不好這個部分就請這個言明會都是你們要去處理的而不是這個你們要去協助你們的這個一個財團法人尤其是原住民族的電視台好我們談這個永久會址"},{"start":247.403,"end":272.939,"text":"永久的會址一開始也就是沒有規劃到從臺北市南港區重陽路要到桃園大園區從羅斯福路要過去這個才是中長城計劃要納入的你沒有納入啊很多都沒有納入啊這個才是中長城計劃要納入的像勞動基準法"},{"start":274.173,"end":299.493,"text":"第十條之一僱主調動勞動工作當初規劃的時候就知道要調動了就應該考慮到勞動基準法第十條之一第四款調動工作地點過眼僱主應予必要之協助考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益這個才是中長程計劃要納入的"},{"start":301.796,"end":329.7,"text":"結果沒有納入對不對包括很多的相關最主要的像我們很多的工程包括園民會的工程就是因為這幾年連物料的調帳各方面去調整修正提高的都有啊這個就是要中長城計劃去滾動檢討結果都沒有做所以這個部分是所以相關的交通的補助"},{"start":330.952,"end":359.194,"text":"簽基的補助、托育的補助、合宜住宅或是社會住宅請問一下,社會住宅,剛剛一直提到社會住宅,有方向了嗎?有,那個原文會有跟桃園市政府有談過兩次到三次,關於社會住宅的部分。 結果呢?可以請史謀老師談結果的部分。 結果呢?先董事長、史謀老師,謝謝。我們還在持續在爭取。 不是那麼容易啊。"},{"start":360.655,"end":388.301,"text":"為什麼在地的原住民都不夠住啊所以不是那麼容易所以如果沒有放在中長城計劃有啊 有學童啊 有溝通啊但是還是沒有辦法保障對不對住宅法 延平會副總副主委這不是你的業務啊回去去跟這個另外一個住宅法本席所提出的104年通過的"},{"start":390.816,"end":418.832,"text":"住宅法就規定原民會要興建專攻原住民居住的社會住宅如果當初就這樣去蓋的話這個解決了所以這個部分就是沒有做法律已經給你們了結果你們都沒有做所以像今天的報告就這樣這個都是所以這樣的一個情形"},{"start":420.37,"end":448.966,"text":"我們看看這樣的一個言文會他們都做了議員調查只有59.4%願意遷過去14.6%不願意遷往26%尚未表達意見他猶豫為了工作又為了不得不工作他在猶豫這很高啊這比例很高啊"},{"start":450.426,"end":469.967,"text":"兩個加起來我們應該要兩個加起來百分之四十幾是這樣的一個情形這個就必須我們怎麼樣去解決這些問題這個就是你們當初在107年開始研擬規劃一直到行政院109年核定"},{"start":472.908,"end":473.888,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":487.911,"end":503.611,"text":"主管機關不是只有監督更重要就是怎樣去爭取相關員工的權益因為很重要的流動力本來很高現在的流動力就很高到了那邊之後流動力就更高"},{"start":505.403,"end":530.663,"text":"所以為什麼過去一直不是很願意積極的去針對搬遷我從來搬遷落成的我也不去啊為什麼員工的權益沒有被保障嘛沒有在那裡面嘛好不好總副主委是加油是誰責任誰責任好非常謝謝鄭天才委員的提醒也希望原民會"}]}},{"id":"152448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152448","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173427add4fffbb2ab98076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d9b619e1323c98f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：副主委，您好。我們看到這個藍圖就是未來的永久會址，大家都非常的期待，根據我看到的資料，應該是明年的3月就會完工，明年年底大家就會進駐，我知道的是這幾年大家都談原物料上漲，也看到你們也有在做變更設計，請問變更設計幾次？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：2次。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：經費有需要增加嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：九千多萬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有需要增加嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們有增編？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，這個部分有在處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以可以如期如質的完成？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，目前的進度應該是明年的年底竣工。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為它還包括所謂的室內裝潢等，大概要一年的時間。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那進駐呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果可行的話，應該是115年的元月份開始。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，為什麼我們這麼關心？我就是想要聲量相襯，名實要相符，因為當時鄭文燦市長提供這麼好的一個預定地，我們也編列這麼多的經費，要成為永久的會址，所以我們都希望很重要的一件事就是要留住人才、累積實力，這是任何一個企業最重視的，所以我在這邊就是想要問一下，因為我們從之前大家都在憂慮的，就是搬過去之後，我們的勞權有沒有受到保障？你們也討論了很久，實際上今天我從報告裡面有看到你們說會有交通補助、遷居補助、托育補助等等相關權益，一年的費用大約兩千萬元，可是我們沒有看到你們規劃的實質方案，像我就很想知道會補助幾年？一年兩千萬，要補助幾年？新進的員工未來要不要補助？這個部分其實我都看不到，所以我還是希望可不可以提一個比較詳盡的規劃報告給我們大家，好不好？因為我相信大家也想聽，員工一定也很緊張。再請一下勞動部黃副司長。"],["主席：有請黃副司長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很謝謝今天有邀請勞動部來，因為我們就是想要請勞動部來幫我們看一下，我們知道在勞基法第十條之一明確對於搬遷這樣的事情會有所保障，我剛才也提了，確實原民會他們也有規劃，但是大家可能更關心的是，我想要多問一點，我舉個例子，搬遷到那邊，有沒有可能設置幼兒園？副主委，非營利幼兒園，因為我看到你們，光是原文會，預計未來的員工要392位，再加原語會，有沒有可能設一個非營利幼兒園？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們那附近有一個幼兒園。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們目前希望那邊變成族語幼兒園。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以有規劃？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：有規劃。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那很好，謝謝，有規劃，很好！我再請教一下，大家也會很擔心，像我看到立法院這些原民台的記者，如果未來要跑回桃園，我覺得那個可能會超過所謂8小時的勞基法標準，他還要製播，還要回來回去對吧？我看到副司長一直點頭，有可能在臺北留個中心嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們會在臺北有一個中心，提供製播人員在那個地方做產製。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以會編？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們也很關心編組的人力，還有地點。為什麼我這樣講，其實我以前也覺得編那麼多中心幹什麼，可是我們真的幅員遼闊，而且上山下海，像這一次來講，花蓮的地震，我就有看到東部的中心連結就很快，去年卡努颱風，中部的中心就連結得很快。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：臺北也支援下去。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。所以我在想這個部分也許是員工關心的，其實也是我們關心的，因為我們要有競爭力，所以這個部分，我是希望勞動部跟我們的原民會在這個小組裡面，你們要參與，這種勞權的部分對於我們留住人才是很重要，也希望鍾副主委，我們原民會要協助編列經費。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：讓它不要成空，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，沒有問題。明天好像就會開會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就好。再來我關心一樣就是留住人才的問題，大家都說我們原民台這些製播的費用其實跟其他台比差很多，從以前就被詬病，現在我要講的是我們的薪資水準，我們來看一個，這是我看到的，的確這幾年我們一直調薪、一直調薪，在第一級職等跟第二級職等，我們來看一下那個表格，確實我們有比其他台好一點，可是你看從第三職等一直到第十二職等，職等越高薪資差越多，不利於我們的生涯發展。如果是我，到第二職等的時候就要走了，我在這邊升官幹什麼？薪資那麼差。它會造成流動率很高，我光是這4年在立法院就覺得流動率很高。我覺得這個薪資結構也要調整，因為它是用你們的考核去做所謂的職等。副主委，我希望你列管這個業務，未來要注意，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，這個部分他們正在提中長程計畫，希望人力規劃跳脫原來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分去處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個要處理。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我覺得流動率太高不利於生涯階梯的規劃。","最後要鼓勵也是請託，也是我們的期許，我一直在講，其實我們幾分鐘的小節目，真的有很多人誇讚做得很好，但是你們的重播率太高，節目很少就沒有人想要看原民台，只要看新聞而已，因為新聞天天不一樣，這個很慘。這個部分大家都已經通過了，剛才臨提都通過了，希望未來我們可以在原民台看到好節目，包括新媒體的部分，我也是一直滑手機，但是很難看到我們的新媒體。未來錢撥多了以後，我們真的希望能夠成為一個最好的臺灣的原民台，讓世界看到臺灣，看到原住民，希望我們一起努力。好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：非常謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。謝謝鍾興華副主委、兩位董事長以及副司長。","勞工權益的部分剛剛提到了，你提了2,100萬，但是我們不知道你們放在哪裡，所以明天開會的時候，麻煩也把你們提出2,100萬是怎麼樣提供基層勞工講得非常清楚，好嗎？謝謝。","繼續請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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有請鍾副主委還有兩位董事長副主委您好我們看到這個藍圖就是未來的永久會址大家都非常的期待"},{"start":25.441,"end":44.705,"text":"根據我看到的資料應該是明年的3月就會完工明年年底呢大家就會進駐我知道的是這幾年大家都談原物料上漲那也看到你們也有在做變更設計請問變更設計幾次兩次那經費"},{"start":52.209,"end":73.874,"text":"有需要增加嗎?有需要增加嗎?有有所以你們有增編?是,這個部分有在處理好,所以可以如期如值的完成對,跟委員報告目前的進度應該是明年的年底竣工是對,因為它還有包括所謂的室內裝潢等大概要一年的時間那進駐呢?進駐大概會,如果初步"},{"start":74.878,"end":91.867,"text":"可希望應該是一百一百一十五年的元月份開始好那為什麼我們這麼關心吼其實我就是想說要聲量相襯吶民時要相符因為當時鄭文燦市長提供這麼好的一個預定地"},{"start":93.007,"end":107.84,"text":"我們也編列這麼多的經費要成為永久的彙值所以我們都希望說很重要的一件事就是要留住人才累積實力這是任何一個企業最重視的所以我在這邊就是想要問一下"},{"start":108.641,"end":135.277,"text":"因為我們從之前大家都在憂慮的就是搬過去那麼我們的勞權有沒有受到保障你們也討論了很久那實際上今天我從報告裡面我有看到你們說會有交通補助、遷居補助、托育補助等等等相關權益一年的費用大約2000萬元可是我們沒有看到實質你們規劃的方案"},{"start":137.398,"end":137.778,"text":"再請一下勞動部黃副司長有請黃副司長"},{"start":164.884,"end":191.289,"text":"很謝謝今天有邀請勞動部來因為我們就是想要請勞動部來幫我們看一下我們知道在勞基法的第10條之一其實有明確的就是對於搬遷這樣的事情會有所保障那我剛才也提了確實原民會他們也有規劃但是大家可能更關心的是我想要多問一點我舉個例子搬遷到那邊"},{"start":192.429,"end":208.989,"text":"有沒有可能設置幼兒園啊?副主委非營利幼兒園因為我看到你們說預計光是原文會預計未來的員工要392位再加原語會有沒有可能設一個非營利幼兒園?"},{"start":214.416,"end":232.985,"text":"我們那附近有一個幼兒園我們現在目前希望那邊變成是族語幼兒園所以有規劃有規劃那很好那有規劃很好那我再請教一下大家也會很擔心的就是像"},{"start":234.205,"end":252.498,"text":"我看到立法院的這一些原民台的記者他如果未來要跑回桃園我覺得那個可能會超過所謂的八小時的勞基法的標準他還要自播還要回來回去對吧我看到副市長一直點頭那有可能在台北留個中心嗎"},{"start":254.362,"end":263.745,"text":"報告委員我們會在臺北有一個中心提供我們的直播人員在那個地方做產製所以會編所以我們也很關心編組的人力還有地點為什麼我這樣講其實我在這幾次我以前其實我也覺得編那麼多中心幹什麼"},{"start":272.188,"end":296.298,"text":"可是我們真的幅員遼闊而且上山下海像這一次來講花蓮的地震我就有看到東部的中心連結就很快去年卡姆颱風中部的中心就連結得很快台北也支援下去對所以我在想這個部分也許是員工關心的其實也是我們關心的因為我們要有競爭力所以這個部分我是希望說勞動部"},{"start":297.859,"end":315.43,"text":"就跟我們的原民會我希望在這個小組裡面你們要參與這種勞權的部分其實對於我們留住人才是很重要那也希望那個中副主委我們原民會要協助來編列經費然後不要成空好不好是沒有問題明天好像就會開會"},{"start":317.931,"end":343.457,"text":"那就好再來就是我關心一樣就是留住人才的問題大家都說我們原民台這一些費用、製播的費用其實跟其他台比差很多從以前就被詬病那現在我要講的是說我們的薪資水準我們來看一個這是我看到的的確這幾年我們一直調薪一直調薪"},{"start":344.761,"end":362.157,"text":"我們在第一級值等跟第二級值等喔我們來看一下那個表格確實我們有比其他台好一點可是你看喔從第三值等一直到第十二值等越值等越高差薪資差越多"},{"start":363.953,"end":385.033,"text":"那我就想說他就不利於我們的生涯發展啊我大概 如果是我啦我到第二職種的時候我就要走了啊因為我在這邊升官幹什麼 薪資那麼差所以他會造成流動率很高我這幾年光是這四年在立法院我就覺得流動率很高"},{"start":386.26,"end":404.955,"text":"所以我覺得這個薪資結構的部分也要去調整因為它是用你們的考核去做點數去做所謂的值等所以這個部分那個副主委我也希望你列管這個業務未來要注意好不好是 跟我們報告因為這個部分"},{"start":406.156,"end":430.926,"text":"他們也正在提那個中長城計劃希望把這樣一個人力規劃也跳脫原來的四點是是是這個要做處理因為我就覺得流動率太高不利於生涯階梯的規劃那最後就是要鼓勵啦也是請託啦也是我們的期許啦我一直在講其實我們的小節目啊那種幾分鐘的真的很多人都誇讚做得很好"},{"start":431.946,"end":440.496,"text":"但是你們就是重播率太高節目很少就沒有人想要看原民台只有要看新聞而已因為新聞會天天不一樣"},{"start":442.003,"end":471.079,"text":"這個很慘耶所以我想這個部分大家都已經通過了昭偉剛才林啼都有通過了希望未來我們可以在原民台看得到好節目包括新媒體的部分我也是一直滑滑滑手機很難看到我們的新媒體所以希望未來我們錢撥多了以後真的我們希望能夠成為一個最好的台灣的原民台讓世界看到我們的台灣看到我們的原住民"},{"start":471.499,"end":471.539,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17342da3ccc59e72efe2ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4dbd08ba42753e627a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:10:50 - 11:24:11","影片長度":"00:13:21","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":801,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:24:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:10:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":565,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時10分）謝謝主席，我請潘文忠部長。"],["主席：請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。剛剛我坐在臺下聽前面的委員質詢，其中葉元之委員質詢教育部說，蔡英文總統當年在政大副教授升等的論文，為什麼要加密？為什麼不能看？為什麼不見？我認為這個很可能涉及到立法委員在立法院裡面公然造謠，所以我認為事實的釐清相當的重要。我想請問，蔡英文總統當年在政大副教授升等的這個論文有加密嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，論文本身不會加密。"],["吳委員沛憶：有不見嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有不見。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。當年的論文是叫做期刊論文，對吧？發表在哪裡？發表在政大的法學評論。這個問題我覺得非常的可笑，因為任何對學術有一點基本常識的人都知道，論文這個叫做發表，這是公開出版的，已經出版的文件何來加密？就出版了嘛。再來，這兩篇論文，一篇是「國際貿易中國內市場之保護」，另外一篇是「國際貿易法數原則在經濟結構轉型及蕭條期之運用及演變」，這兩篇論文出版的年份是民國72年。當時出版的論文，現在我們在什麼地方還可以看到、典藏在哪裡？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，政大本身學校的圖書館一定會保存，然後我們的國圖也都會保存所有相關的出版品，而且這一些你只要去閱覽，都可以看到論文的相關內容。"],["吳委員沛憶：在我們的國家圖書館還有保存。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個訊息，請問教育部有沒有對外公開澄清過？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個不止是一次，已經多次公開說明，當時也包含我們立法院有委員說要去看，比如說當時已經安排政大他們來提出……"],["吳委員沛憶：對，不止一次。教育部在2019年，也就是5年前，其實網頁上就公開的發布過澄清的資訊了，這其實就是我們公務部門還是負有跟社會隨時進行溝通的責任，我們已經發表過、公開澄清過的資訊，5年前就講過的事，到2024年仍然有立法委員不瞭解事實而進行評論。立法委員都已經是比較能夠獲得比較多政府資訊的人，何況是一般的民眾，所以我們在做公共政策的時候，及時地跟社會溝通是很重要的一件事，也希望、期許你們必須不厭其煩的來做，因為有良好的溝通，才能夠建立社會對政府的信任，我們規劃的諸多政策才能夠繼續推行，請你們繼續努力。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：今天的報告裡面很重要的一部分是臺美教育倡議，這是很早之前由美國跨黨派的議員提出的決議案，希望政府要重視過去中國政府在美國推動的孔子學院。雖其初衷一開始也是要推動華語教育，但是有很多學校陸續回報、舉報，認為孔子學院有侵害學術自由的行為，例如有學校受到壓力，必須要取消達賴喇嘛的演講；有些學校邀請來自臺灣的演講者演說，在公開的資訊上必須將演講者是來自於臺灣的背景移除掉。因此美國國內，包括他們的國會，也開始在討論說，如果我們要推廣華語教育也可以跟臺灣進行合作，所以我們從2020年開始有臺美教育倡議，也簽署了很多備忘錄，今年從美國來臺灣學習華語的學生人數也破了三千人，創下史上的新高。請問目前簽的這些備忘錄，推行的成效如何？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員。因為臺美倡議從剛才委員提到的2020年啟動後，臺灣跨部會真的非常密集的跟美國召開臺美倡議的相關會議，光這樣的會議就召開過14次，每一次都有很具體的重點交流，這當中華語教育的推廣是一個非常重要的重點。也跟委員報告，剛才委員提到112年美國來台學習華語的學生人數創了歷年新高，已經達到三千位以上，這當中，跟委員報告，很多推動的方式已經深化到州包含大學。這個概念就是以大學對大學的方式去進行，如此產生的深化效果較之過往，過往我們會覺得好像都是比較單點而片斷的，但是透過臺美教育倡議，雙方這樣不斷不斷的進行之後，如果以華語教育的推廣來看，相較於過往，確實有很大的突破。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。我覺得這個計畫的重要性，除了在於外交意涵、除了在於我們到美國去推廣華語，也在於例如美國透過Fulbright的計畫，他們也有英語的教學人員來到臺灣協助我們推行英語教育，也跟我們的中小學進行合作，所以美國有一個ETA（美籍英語協同教學助理計畫），每年都有人員來臺灣協助教學，目前臺灣是不是美國投入最高程度的國家之一呢？"],["潘部長文忠：是，目前確實如此。剛才委員提到華語，這是一個重點，臺灣這段時間在推動國家雙語政策當中，其實相當多的外師，包含教學助理，就是剛才委員提到的這部分，其實也是透過這樣的平臺，他們來做這方面的一些協助。對我們在國內推動雙語政策上，來自美方的協助，在這方面，也是很大的重點。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。在AIT的臺美教育倡議事實清單裡面，去年透過ETA計畫來臺灣的有152名美國學生，但是從臺灣我們透過優華語計畫送到美國去從事華語教學的，我看了一下人數，我們的教師是39名，教學助理是5名，也有一些是透過其他計畫選送去美國，但是雙邊的數字比起來，因為這個實際是互惠計畫，我們也要選送人到美國去推行華語教育，我認為我們的人數還可以再努力來增加。我們在選訓華語師資的時候，遇到什麼樣的困難嗎？是補助的問題，還是說意願其實不高，有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，確實以目前這樣的擴展，如果以跟美國合作為例，跟以往的需求，我講需求就是因為大家很願意往這個方向走。對於華語師資的，包含剛才林宜瑾召委也特別提到，一些待遇跟相關聘任等等的作法，我覺得教育部是應該再做一個檢視，因為現在機構在美國這邊所設置的或其他國家所設置的更穩定，在這種情況之下，未來在需求上可以看得出來會越來越擴增，但是對於人員這方面的一些生活協助，或我們說對於一些薪資、待遇等等的，因為臺灣是做協助這部分，當地學校會給這位老師薪資，我想在協助這部分，我覺得國家可以再用更大的力道。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。我認為華語教學會是我們臺灣未來非常強的優勢，隨著臺灣的外交的關係，世界上很多國家都開始重視臺灣，也有學習華語的需求，所以我們這幾年的優華語計畫，我覺得我們應該要進行一個盤整，因為涉及的有外交部、有教育部、也有僑委會，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：優華語計畫，事實上，我們不只是要跟美國合作，我們是在美、歐、紐、澳都有相關的計畫在推行，但是我看了一下目前的成果，以校際合作來說，總共合作的美、歐、紐、澳是68所學校，但是其中有八成56所都是在美國，其他的是英國6所、法國1所、捷克、波蘭、紐、澳各1所。因為我也是立法院歐洲議會友好促進會的會長，其實歐洲國家尤其是歐洲議會，今年來了好幾團訪團，他們都告訴我們，歐洲在近五年對於臺灣的重視提升非常之多，包括歐洲的國會議員都時常在他們自己的國會，提出要促進跟臺灣在經濟、教育方面相關交流的議案，所以我認為我們要去加強相關的推動。到目前為止，你這個優華語計畫一年預算有1.41億，但跟歐洲國家的交流合作，我剛剛講的校際合作不到兩成，我覺得這個數字絕對要再提升、加強，包括我們選送華語教學人員到海外任教，45名教師中八成以上也都是到美國任教，其他在英國有3位、法國1位、波蘭和捷克各1位，這個數字我覺得都要來努力。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，這個優華語計畫在整個盤整之後在走，其實目前走得穩定，看起來也深入，但是委員提到的，在擴展這些面向上，是應該用這樣的基礎再擴大。剛才委員提到在美國的人數突破3,000，其實根據最新的統計，整體來自全球到臺灣學華語的總人數已經到了3萬6,000人，顯然在這方面我們是有被各地、各國所喜歡，所以在這方面，謝謝委員剛剛的指教，我想在優華語計畫的基礎上，我們還會再擴展其他的包含歐洲的國家，我們講東歐其實也是一個非常重要的開發據點。過去在歐洲大概是跟英國合作居多，這方面我想會在這個基礎上再來擴展。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後，部長，你是中華民國史上任期最長的部長，小英總統任期8年，你就擔任部長七年多，但更重要的是任內推動了幾項我認為很重要的基礎教育修法，有偏鄉教育條例、實驗三法、特教法、性別教育平等法等重要法案，更加重要的是108年課綱的推動，你可能是第一個透過公開的直播直接跟學生對談、討論課綱的部長，那你認為108課綱在推動過程當中最困難的一點是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為108課綱是很龐雜的，過去國中小是一個課綱、技術高中是一個課綱、高中是一個課綱，橫向之間、領域之間比較沒有辦法……這部課綱是把縱向跟橫向做一個綜整，這樣的過程確實讓研發跟審議更透明，透明的意思是這些審議過程完全公開，包含也有學生代表來參與，學生也從學習者的角度來看，過程確實有很多意見，綜整這樣的意見最後把它確定花了兩年九個月。因為當時這個議題我認為很重要，而且也考慮到未來推行配套，所以我幾乎親自主持每一場審議會議，主要也是考量課綱發展完成之後的推行才是挑戰之所在，所以我也花很多時間聽學生在這一方面的心得，並做一些滾動的修正，我想下一波的課綱也應該在這樣的基礎上，一定會讓臺灣在課程發展上更好。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，過程困難，但是成果我認為是很值得，直接的對話也非常重要，因為課綱10年一修，有108課綱，未來還有118課綱，所以我們也希望下一次的課綱修訂也可以持續學習跟學生對話的精神，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：部長，跟剛剛那張照片比起來，的確歲月留下了痕跡，謝謝。","我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時24分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.148468750000001,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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我請潘文忠部長 欸 潘部長委員好部長好 剛剛我坐在台下聽前面的委員質詢其中葉元之委員質詢 他來詢問教育部說蔡英文總統當年在政大副教授升等的論文為什麼要加密 為什麼不能看 為什麼不見"},{"start":31.445,"end":38.351,"text":"我認為這個很可能涉及到立法委員在立法院裡面公然的造謠所以我認為事實的釐清相當的重要我想請問蔡英文總統當年在政大副教授升等的這個論文有加密嗎"},{"start":48.027,"end":51.369,"text":"這個當年的論文是叫做期刊論文對吧?發表在哪裡?發表在政大的法學評論這個問題我覺得非常的可笑因為任何對學術有一點基本常識的人都知道"},{"start":68.266,"end":91.637,"text":"論文這個叫做發表就是公開出版已經出版的文件和來加密就出版了嘛再來這兩篇論文一篇是國際貿易中國內市場之保護另外一篇是國際貿易法術原則在經濟結構轉型及蕭條及之運用及演變這個論文出版的年份是民國72年"},{"start":96.828,"end":118.309,"text":"當時這個出版的論文現在我們在什麼地方可以看到點藏在哪裡跟委員報告鄭大本身學校一定圖書館一定保存我們的國圖也都會保存所有相關的出版品而且這一些你只要去越南都可以看到論文的在我們的國家圖書館還有保存"},{"start":121.011,"end":121.752,"text":"請問教育部有沒有對外的公開澄清過?"},{"start":137.782,"end":140.305,"text":"教育部在2019年就是5年前其實網頁上就公開的發布過澄清的資訊了所以我想這其實就是我們公務部門我們其實就是還是富有跟社會隨時"},{"start":152.719,"end":152.739,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":174.787,"end":175.047,"text":"請繼續努力"},{"start":194.285,"end":217.21,"text":"好那今天的報告裡面呢很重要的一部分是我們的臺美教育倡議因為我想這是從很早的美國在開始國內美國的這個議員們提出的決議案跨黨派的議員希望政府要來去重視在美國過去中國政府在美國推動的孔子學院"},{"start":218.911,"end":227.162,"text":"出中一開始也是要推動華語教育但是有很多的學校陸續舉報認為孔子學院有侵害學術自由這樣的行為例如說有學校受到壓力必須要去取消達賴喇嘛的演講"},{"start":235.914,"end":240.076,"text":"有些學校邀請來自臺灣的演講者演說必須公開的資訊要移除掉的演講者是來自於臺灣的背景所以美國國內包括他們的國會也開始在討論說如果我們要推廣華語教育也可以來跟臺灣進行合作所以我們從2020年開始有臺美教育的倡議也簽署了很多的備忘錄今年"},{"start":261.285,"end":272.906,"text":"從美國的學生來到臺灣竟協助這個華語的人數也破了3000人是創下史上的新高我們目前簽的這些備忘錄目前推行的成效如何?"},{"start":273.715,"end":277.238,"text":"謝謝委員因為臺美倡議從2020起動後其實是真的非常密集的臺灣跨部會跟美國的延續臺美倡議後光這樣的會議就召開過14次每一次都有很具體的"},{"start":292.89,"end":295.432,"text":"委員提到美國在112年的華語學生已經是創立年的新高已經到了3000位以上那這當中還有跟委員報告是很多"},{"start":314.483,"end":339.625,"text":"推的方式是已經深化到州包含大學這個概念就是以大學對大學的方式去進行這個其實它的產生的深化的效果是過往沒有過往我們會覺得好像都是單點比較片段的那這一些也都是臺美創意之後雙方這樣不斷不斷的進行那之後如果以華語教育推廣"},{"start":340.626,"end":340.646,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":355.845,"end":367.074,"text":"英語的教學人員來到臺灣協助我們進行英語的教育也跟我們的中小學來進行合作所以說美國有一個ETL美籍英語協同教學助理計畫每年都有人員來臺灣協助教學目前台灣是不是美國投入最高程度的國家之一呢"},{"start":377.302,"end":380.444,"text":"是 目前確實如此剛才委員提到華語這是一個重點那臺灣這段時間所推動國家雙語政策當中其實相當多的外師包含教學助理就是剛才委員提到的這部分其實也是透過這樣的平台他們來做這方面的"},{"start":398.235,"end":401.096,"text":"在AIT的臺美教育倡議事實清單裡面去年透過ETA計畫來臺灣的有152名的美國學生但是從臺灣我們透過優華語計畫送到美國去從事華語教學的我看一下人數"},{"start":426.4,"end":436.845,"text":"我們的教師是39名那我們的教學助理是5名也有一些是透過其他計畫選送去美國但是這個數字比起來因為這其實是互惠計畫嘛我們也要選送人員到美國去推行華語教育我認為我們這個人數還可以再努力的來增加我們在這個選訓我們的華語師資的時候遇到什麼樣的困難嗎是補助的問題還是說意願其實不高有沒有遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":454.113,"end":474.541,"text":"跟委員報告,確實在以目前這樣的擴展,如果以跟美國合作為例,跟以往的這個需求,我講需求就是因為大家很願意往這個方向走,那對於華語師資的,包含剛才林錦昭委也特別提到一些待遇跟相關聘任等等的做法,"},{"start":474.821,"end":480.143,"text":"我覺得教育部是應該有再做一個檢視因為等於說現在機構在美國這邊所設置的或其他國家所設置的更穩定那這種情況之下未來在需求上可以看得出來會越來越擴增但是對於人員這方面的一些生活協助或我們說對於一些精緻待遇等等的"},{"start":501.893,"end":514.737,"text":"臺灣是做協助的這部分當地學校會給這位老師薪資我想在協助的這部分我覺得是國家可以再多更大的力道是 我認為華語教學會是我們臺灣未來我們非常強的優勢隨著臺灣的外交的關係世界上很多國家都開始重視臺灣也有學習華語的需求所以我們這幾年的優華語計畫我覺得我們應該進行一個盤正"},{"start":529.462,"end":534.265,"text":"因為有外交部有教育部也有僑委會嘛對不對優華語計畫事實上我們不只是要跟美國合作我們是美歐紐澳我們都有相關的計畫在推行但是我看一下我目前的成果以校際合作來說總共合作的美歐紐澳是68所學校對不對但是你裡面你有八成56所都是在美國其他的英國六所法國一所捷克波蘭"},{"start":556.901,"end":573.188,"text":"紐澳各一所 因為我也是立法院歐洲議會友好促進會的會長其實歐洲的國家尤其是歐洲議會今年訪團來好幾團他們都告訴我們說歐洲在近5年對於臺灣的重視是提升了非常之多"},{"start":574.068,"end":585.057,"text":"包括了歐洲的國會議員都時常在他們自己國會裡面去提出要促進跟臺灣不管是經濟教育相關交流的議案所以我認為我們要去加強相關的推動目前為止你這個計畫優華語計畫一年的預算1.41億"},{"start":593.697,"end":598.442,"text":"跟歐洲國家的交流合作我剛講的校際合作是不到兩成我覺得這個數字絕對要再來提升加強那包括了我們選送華語教學人員到海外任教教師45名裡面八成以上也都是到美國任教其他英國有三位法國一位波蘭捷克各一位"},{"start":613.836,"end":615.097,"text":"這個數字我覺得都要來努力提升"},{"start":629.723,"end":654.635,"text":"委員提到我們在美國這邊人數有突破3000那其實整體來自全球到臺灣學華語的總人數已經到了36000最新的統計顯然在這方面我們是有被各地各國所喜歡所以在這方面謝謝委員剛才的指教我想在優華語計畫的基礎上我們可能還會再拓展其他的這些"},{"start":655.916,"end":655.936,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":669.716,"end":675.98,"text":"是那最後呢部長你是中華民國史上任期最長的部長小英總統任期8年你就擔任部長7年多的時間但更重要的是任內推動了幾項我認為是很重要的基礎教育的修法我們有偏鄉教育條例實驗三法特教法性便教育平等法等重要法案更加重要的也是我們108年課綱的推動你可能是第一個"},{"start":695.791,"end":698.572,"text":"108課綱是一個很龐雜的那也是把過去我們比較片段就是說國中小是一個課綱技術高中是一個課綱高中是一個課綱那橫向之間"},{"start":722.717,"end":722.737,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":752.159,"end":756.04,"text":"主要的目的也是希望在課綱發展完成之後的推行那才是挑戰之所在所以我也花很多時間跟學生聽他們在這一方面的一些心得在做一些滾動的修正我想下一波的課綱也應該以這樣的基礎一定會讓臺灣在課程發展上更好"},{"start":780.208,"end":780.228,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152446","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173406c38bcb3c838b77ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d21a471a2d4db75405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:16:21 - 11:28:54","影片長度":"00:12:33","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":753,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:28:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:16:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我先請教的是，我們勞動部的彈性育嬰留職停薪在這個月9號開始試辦，我想請教的是，這個彈性育嬰留職停薪，我們有說要在5天前用書面方式提出申請，試辦單位也可以規定少於5天這個期限。我想請教，我記得上一次在委員會的時候，部長也有提到目前有64家加入試辦。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，這64家當中，有幾家的條件是比我們勞動部所規定的還要寬鬆？這個你們有去做一個統計嗎？就是比你們勞動部原本所規定的還要再寬鬆一點，有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們本身有去做統計？"],["許部長銘春：是，就是我們現在原則是5天，也有比5天還少的。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以目前有？"],["許部長銘春：是。現在我們這個申請其實到5月底之前都可以，就是有意願的企業單位，我們還是歡迎它來申請試辦，已經提出來的64家，我們統計是有優於……就是比那5天還少的事業單位。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我是不是可以要求你們，就是在試辦當中，譬如說到年底，你們應該也要再去做一個統計，就是整個勞工申請的狀況，或者是意願，或者是大家覺得這樣好不好用？我覺得到年底的時候，你們應該要再去做一個統計。"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，這是一定要做的，為什麼我們要先用試辦的方式？也就是說，要讓整個勞務的實務運作之後，到底會有哪些問題？怎麼樣來做會比較好？這個就提供一個參考，因為很多委員主張有更彈性的育嬰留停，但是我們也考慮到，因為我們中小企業居多，大事業單位可能會比較好用，其他的要看大家的回饋怎麼樣，還有試辦的成效，我們再來做檢討，因為我們現在等於是針對工作的需求跟育兒的需求，儘量能夠去滿足勞工的訴求。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好。部長，接下來我想請教，關於育嬰留職停薪，其實我們有一個規定，就是就保法規定育嬰留職停薪的津貼未滿一個月以一個月計算，是不是也有可能每個月譬如說我如果只有請一天，那我也是以一個月來計算，這樣相對的是不是還要修其他的法令？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，現行的規範本來就是每三十天發放一次，我們之前的規定就是因為考量到有些是……因為我們現在是期初發給，我們每個月都是期初就發錢給他，有些會提早復職，或者是會有零頭，因為六個月不會剛好那個月，可能多個……","假設6月，他可能只停個3天，時間就到了，還要追錢也麻煩，為了簡政便民，所以當初就是未滿一個月也以一個月計。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在可以彈性地來……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為現在是試辦，我們還要觀察，未來試辦的結果我們會來檢討，也聽聽各界的意見，該修我們就修。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們現在是要怎麼計算？"],["許部長銘春：現在還是照原來的啊！"],["黃委員秀芳：喔，就照原來的哦？"],["許部長銘春：現在是照原來的，因為……"],["黃委員秀芳：喔，是照原來的啦！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這是試辦，而且到年底而已，我們不可能為一個試辦計畫去修法，因為這樣影響比較大。我的意思是，試辦之後如果有應該要修的相關法規，譬如可能這個制度我們要這樣子走了，到時候再一起來修；現在就是照原來的規範啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以如果一個月只請一次，也有可能領到一個月嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，現在的規定就是這樣子。試辦其實就是希望能夠瞭解勞工在實務現場的訴求，所以我們是想等試辦完畢再來檢討會比較好。"],["黃委員秀芳：OK。這個法令跟實際狀況當然要有一些配套。"],["許部長銘春：是！試辦以後可能還有很多東西我們要去檢討，如果這個制度要施行、是適合臺灣的一個好的制度，我們當然要把相關配套檢討出來，包括剛剛委員在關心的這個部分是不是也要修規範，這些都會一併來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。","部長，我接下來要請教有關外送平台的問題。我看到3月18日勞動部有特別發文給兩大外送平台，甚至司長也有親自拜會他們，對不對？"],["王司長厚偉：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：這可能是為了外送費用的透明化或者是明確化進行道德勸說。我想請教，對於你們3月18日的發文，這兩個外送平台有回復了嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：報告委員，目前為止他們還在研議……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以還沒有回復？"],["王司長厚偉：對。不過我們在5月29日要開下一次（第6次）的平台會議，這個議題會列為當天很重要的一個討論事項。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果他們一直不回復你們呢？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，我們有提到保障他們報酬的方法、途徑，如果他們覺得用這個方法對他們來講不是最理想的做法，因為都有工會在，我們是請雙方就平台來溝通，他們也可以提出另外一些做法，跟比較具體的確保外送人員報酬能夠比較穩定和增進，勞資雙方可以當場來做一些溝通，找找看有沒有比較適合的方法。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們的外送員總共有14萬人，真的是一個非常大的族群，司長也很用心，還親自去拜會，我們當然也希望這兩個外送平台真的能有所回應，如果他們不回應的話，你們應該也要有一些手段吧？既然在臺灣，當然就要依照臺灣的法規，所以未來如果他們不回復、不遵照，或者是整個都不很明確也不透明的話，你們要怎麼處理？你們是要等到5月底那一次的會議？"],["王司長厚偉：對，我們5月29日會開下一次（第6次）的會議來做討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長即將卸任，我們希望……"],["許部長銘春：不會啦、不會！我們一定會保障外送員的權益，政府該有什麼態度就應該要展現出來！我們是希望大家和諧地去把問題解決，當然，如果他們相應不理，政府該有的公權力就要拿出來啊，我相信未來新的部長也會支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。","接下來我要請教消防署署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：署長好。在這幾年當中，消防員為了打火而傷亡的事件非常多，我相信很多消防員最期待的是，第一個，所有的裝備一定要齊全，打火兄弟一進到火場，很多人都覺得是在出生入死，結果裝備並不是那麼齊全，所以我覺得保障這些消防員的權益當然非常重要，可是更重要的應該是要保障消防弟兄的所有設備一定要齊全。這點是不是請署長回應一下？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員這麼關心消防，事實上真正達成安全要三個層面，剛才委員講到第一個層面就是裝備、器材、車輛、廳舍，這個部分前一陣子已經准了23個計畫，未來幾年應該有差不多200億的經費會投注在整個第一線……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以逐年要有多少經費撥入？"],["蕭署長煥章：5年差不多200億，所以每年至少會有大約40億的經費會投注在……"],["黃委員秀芳：5年多少？"],["蕭署長煥章：200億。"],["黃委員秀芳：5年200億？"],["蕭署長煥章：對，目前都已經核定了。所以裝備、器材、車輛這個部分已經在執行當中。另外就是要達到管理的層面，所以現在消防法也要修正、增加職安專章，這個案子已經報到行政院，最近會送到大院來審查。修法重點是要把整個安全管理機制建立好，這個機制事實上3年之前我們就開始在執行了，比方說我們3年之前找2個縣市，去年找8個縣市，今年會找16個縣市，把先期的安全文化機制做一個輔導。明年開始，我們的職安中程計畫就有點像深耕計畫的概念，輔導縣市來達成消防的職業安全，因為這是全新的領域，並不是用口頭講就可以達到，所以中程計畫也是分5年來執行。最後一個部分就是整個安全文化的建置，包括法律面、執行面還有輔導面，我們預期至少要有5年的時間，逐步由下而上、由上而下來雙重進行這方面的建置比較能夠達成這樣的目標，不是成立工會或者協會就可以達到的，我們是從執行面參考日本、美國的做法。我上禮拜也到美國參加世界消防首長會議，總共有55個國家參加，會議當中也把消防人員的健康安全列為討論的重點，這個部分也是各國目前正在重視和執行的，我們的中程計畫也是朝向日本、美國的做法，如果還有更好的做法，都會納入我們後面執行和強調的方向。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們當然希望消防員的權益能有所保障，就像剛剛署長講的，現在可能5年要針對整個裝備或設施投入200億，但是我覺得第一線人員在現場、火場當中的判斷也非常重要，當火正在燒的時候，第一個是指揮官要去判斷這個時候可不可以再進去，這就是剛剛講的職業安全，我覺得職業安全的訓練真的也都非常重要，不論是裝備或者是職業安全，所有火場指揮官的指揮調度也都非常重要。"],["蕭署長煥章：剛剛委員說的就是由下而上的概念，每一位都要有職業安全文化的概念，消防人員的養成教育目前會調整成一整年對技術的教育訓練，相關的制度和做法已經確認了，目前也正在作業。除了養成教育的作業，還有在職人員的教育訓練，再加上職業安全文化，我想這是目前同步在進行的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝署長、謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","接下來請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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案 。"},{"start":145.35,"end":171.049,"text":"〔議員〕"},{"start":171.049,"end":174.671,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":197.908,"end":220.405,"text":"議員包委因為現行的規範本來就是每30天發放一次那因為我們之前的規定就是因為考量到說有些是因為我們現在是期出發給我們都是每個月都是期出就發給錢發錢給他那有些會提早復職或者他會有零頭因為6個月不會剛好剛好例如說假設6月他可能"},{"start":227.29,"end":228.531,"text":" »:所以你們現在是要怎麼計算?"},{"start":256.441,"end":257.342,"text":"兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃兆元"},{"start":286.084,"end":301.475,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹑立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會及第六條條文修正草案案﹑立法院第12會期社會福利及第六條條文修正草案案﹑立法院第13會期社會福利及第16會期社會福利及第16會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第17會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福利及第18會期社會福"},{"start":311.542,"end":326.498,"text":"除此之外,我們有很多事情要檢討,希望如果這個制度要走,如果適合台灣的一個好的制度,我們大概要向外的配套軍去把它檢討出來,然後包括剛剛委員在關心的這個是不是也要修規範,這個都會一併來討論。"},{"start":329.321,"end":348.722,"text":"委員我接下來請教就是說我們這個外送這個平台我看到就是說勞動部有在3月18號有特別發文給這兩個外送的平台就是說甚至我們那個司長也有親自拜會這兩大平台司長對不對"},{"start":349.663,"end":367.746,"text":"對啦,那就是說可能就是說道德勸說這個外送費用的透明化或者是明確化啦那我想請教就是說你們在3月18號發文給這兩個這個外送平台那他們有回覆了嗎?還沒有,是。"},{"start":369.148,"end":382.594,"text":"包括委員到目前為止他們還在研議不過我們在5月29號要開下一次第六次的平台會議那我們會在當天就是這個議題會列我們當天很重要的一個討論的一個事項"},{"start":386.176,"end":413.439,"text":"公務員報告我們有提到因為保障他們的新報酬的方法途徑如果他覺得用這個方法不是對他們來講不是最理想的做法因為都有公會在我們是雙方就平台的溝通他們可以提出另外一些什麼樣的做法跟比較具體的一個確保我們外送員的報酬能夠比較穩定可以設計然後當場勞資雙方可以來做一些溝通再找看比較適合的方法"},{"start":414.019,"end":418.702,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":444.439,"end":446.52,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​​​​​"},{"start":469.671,"end":491.857,"text":"當然就是司長我們一定會保障衛生委員的權益政府該有什麼態度就應該是要展現出來那我們是希望大家能夠是和諧的去把問題解決當然如果相應部理該有的政府的公權力就要拿出來我相信未來新的部長也會支持好 謝謝接下來我是不是請消防署署長好不好"},{"start":498.982,"end":525.887,"text":"主席,在這幾年當中,消防員為了打火造成傷亡的事件非常多。我相信很多的消防員他們最期待就是說第一個你裝備一定要齊全,所有的裝備一定要齊全。有的打火兄弟他一進到火場也許"},{"start":526.647,"end":549.411,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":549.471,"end":566.344,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心消防事實上真的要達成安全要三個層面剛剛委員講到第一層面就是裝備、器材、車輛、聽色這個部分閒置遠遠準了23個計畫那未來幾年應該差不多有200億的經費會投注在整個在B線的所以你逐年要有多少會撥入?"},{"start":568.026,"end":581.874,"text":"五年差不多兩百萬每年至少差不多四十萬的經費會投注在這個五年多少兩百億五年兩百億對目前都已經核定的所以這個部分在中費汽車輛這個部分已經在執行當中"},{"start":584.936,"end":614.016,"text":"除了要達到管理的一個層面所以我們現在消防法也修正了增加我們消防法的治安專章那這個案子已經報到憲政院那最近會報到大院裡面來做一個審查也就把整個安全管理機制建立好那這個機制事實上在三年之前我們就開始在執行也是從三年之前找兩個縣市那去年找八個縣市那今年會找16個縣市把先期的安全文化機制做一個輔導"},{"start":614.616,"end":630.794,"text":"), ️ ️"},{"start":630.954,"end":650.957,"text":"最後一個部分就是整個安全文化建制就是法律面、執行面、輔導面的執行我們預期是至少要5年的時間逐步由上而下來雙重做這方面建制是比較能夠達成這樣的目標那也不是一個說要成立工會或者要成立協會這個就可以達得到"},{"start":651.237,"end":663.883,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":677.27,"end":698.696,"text":"當然就是說我們希望消防員的這個權益要保障就剛剛署長講的你五年現在要投入200億可能就是說整個裝備或者是整個設施就投入那當然就是說我覺得第一線的這個人員的這個現場火場當中的這個這個判斷就我覺得也非常的重要"},{"start":699.036,"end":715.043,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":716.364,"end":739.245,"text":"除了裝備或職業安全,所有火場指揮官的指揮調度也是非常重要的。所以剛剛委員報告就是由下而上的概念,每一位要有職業安全文化的概念。消防營運的養成教育目前會調整成一整年對技術的教育訓練。目前這個制度跟做法已經確認,目前也正在作業。"},{"start":740.026,"end":753.234,"text":"), ️ ️"}]}},{"id":"152445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173455ab7c7365489c23076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d38043a962e3fa4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"11:17:09 - 11:23:56","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  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謝謝黃委員好我必須要講剛剛我們聽到喜新穎所提的有關於原住民的槍暴條例這是一個全國國人最重視的一個議題"},{"start":35.37,"end":54.575,"text":"你們既然都已經引諾兩年內檢討而且實施在去年的5月17號結果你們消極不作為你們是該誰負責你們這個是行政疏失你們已經引諾了這個疏失該誰負責該誰負責"},{"start":58.41,"end":82.225,"text":"因為在預告之後有很多不同的看法不是嘛今天主張是你們園民會要替全國的族人爭取這樣的一個權利結果你們自己本身為為所說我們現在是什麼園民會是以藩治藩的現在在外面的感覺說你們根本沒有主張力嘛"},{"start":83.171,"end":94.223,"text":"委員報告這個因為這個反而是警政署的內政部所以我們也很積極配合希望能夠進展你們既然都已經講這邊我先讀一下喜新宜所講的這個有關機關質疑"},{"start":98.508,"end":116.366,"text":"自本解釋公佈日期兩年內一本解釋一時進促檢討修正就在上開範圍不足這部分定定符合憲法保障原住民的安全從事合法所利活動之自治列強之定定"},{"start":117.407,"end":135.719,"text":"所以這個就是你們自己本身所提出來的你們現在沒有作為沒有作為都是聽其他的部會原民會應該有主張的立場為全國的族人守護權益守護他們的立場你們結果為為所說"},{"start":139.864,"end":165.038,"text":"內政部有一線你們馬上就萎縮了國防部有一線你們馬上就萎縮了這樣的一個原民會是幹什麼浪費公帑啊我們都有主動去找內政部、警政署跟國防部我們都比較用積極的態度是不是你們原民會的這個首長、主管裡面全部換掉才會有積極的作為你們現在留在這個位置裡面對不起國人啊浪費公帑啊"},{"start":168.496,"end":195.899,"text":"我會責成國防部因為我現在是外交國防我責成國防部謠言內政部幫你們人民會儘速檢討這個有關於獵槍的部分是是到時候我會請我的辦公室行文給國防部還有你們人民會來一起來討論在我的研究室好不好好是謝謝委員謝謝好我們以文董事長請你們要鼓勵董事長"},{"start":203.649,"end":209.693,"text":"有關於文化如果母已斷文化就亡"},{"start":210.939,"end":232.367,"text":"今天很高興的很多我們不管是不分政黨對我們原住民語言的發展包含原住民的發展包含這各項面的一個開發條例都非常積極的關心我們原住民有很多地方嚴密會沒有積極的作為本席亦以來作為檢討"},{"start":233.749,"end":260.988,"text":"但是母語這是一個有關於我們國人對於母語的重視對我們整個全國的發展跟我們目前少子化的因素我們應該要深耕而且要努力對各部落的發展包含整個縣市的語文的發展這是非常重要啊 主委董事長"},{"start":262.212,"end":267.707,"text":"預算目前來講有總額多少?跟委員報告現在我們的總預算是在兩億九"},{"start":268.755,"end":292.752,"text":"兩議夠嗎當然就現行來說我們當然要更加委員的建議是絕對是不夠的好提出你們的報告出來給本席一份你們未來希望能夠推展母語更能夠有效而且生根的話提出一個報告給我好不好我希望能夠責成其他的立委包含我們內政的"},{"start":293.272,"end":314.258,"text":"我們的委員能夠來盡速來做一個檢討包含提升我們母語的預算能夠普遍這是已經普遍性既然我們今天我們所有的語言文化包含我們的這些傳播都能夠設置在桃園本席非常支持"},{"start":314.878,"end":333.604,"text":"但是我也希望能夠從開始要在那個地方運送的話我應該我要隨時監督你們言明會各項的項目有沒有執行徹底那這個部分你趕快做一個預算好不好好 謝謝委員你有什麼想法"},{"start":334.404,"end":346.089,"text":"就委員說我們那個預算基本上要我同意用深耕這個部分要推到部落入馬到家裡這個是我們在內部討論中也是一個很重要的一個大決策"},{"start":355.292,"end":382.602,"text":"不管分族群都是異口同聲的好 謝謝我有接受到這樣的這個訊息那希望我們從這個部分我們共同一起努力因為原住民的進步跟推展是不容許緩慢但是我希望原民會未來520之後我一再提示我們"},{"start":384.284,"end":403.162,"text":"主委所提的不要以翻自翻我們現在要進步我們要強力的主張我們原住民的發展我們要訪觀國外去看一看他們有自己的一個主張力能夠推展的更好不要浪費公帑以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃榮委員的質詢也謝謝董事長"}]}},{"id":"152444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734e569edb0bccde01da2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d4ae445465c1280e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:17:12 - 11:23:57","影片長度":"00:06:45","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":405,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:23:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:17:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時17分）請外交部田次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：洪委員早。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我這邊有一個今年2月的新聞，這則新聞上面寫說，臺灣的護照比中國的護照還要來得好用，所以我們破獲了大型偽造護照的集團。在520這個交接的時刻，其實我們確實要非常感謝外交部過去，包括領務局，其實過去他們的努力讓現在臺灣的護照擁有170個國家的免簽，包括落地證、電子簽證這些待遇，其實相比於中國，都是非常非常多的倍數。在護照的辦理上，人別的辨識其實非常的重要，所以我們現在看到幾個狀況，外交部，尤其是護照辦理上面要做人別辨識的時候，當然我們有時候不希望太鬆，也不希望太密，這個太密如果弄到警報一直響，會讓大家很困擾，也很奇怪。","最近我們收到一個案件，我想跟外交部這邊來請教，當然這其實並不是針對個案，我也不是要苛責第一線的人員，現在我們其實看到有一對，他們其實是依照釋字748號施行法，也就是我們一般在說的婚姻平權法案來締結關係的同性伴侶A女士跟B女士。現在發生一個狀況，他們帶小朋友去辦護照，但現在的狀況是，請看這個投影片，A女士是小朋友的生母，B女士其實是小朋友的養母，因為其實我們也過了這個相關，他們有收養的關係，但很奇怪，領務局的承辦人員刷了生母也就是A女士的身分證，系統出現紅字，但改刷B女士的身分證，紅字卻又消失了，次長，他們就覺得很納悶，到底我們相關的辨識系統裡面，有沒有把我們過去幾年，包括在婚姻平權法案裡面，可能會產生新的締結關係，包括新的收養關係，把它給考慮進去？次長。"],["田次長中光：這個技術上的問題，我想請領務局局長回答，好嗎？"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["何局長震寰：謝謝委員，這個問題我有去做瞭解，基本上我們第一線櫃檯的同仁在處理護照的問題時，他會有一個標準作業的程序，他使用的這個電腦系統會有所謂的防呆機制，就是這個案子需要注意哪些部分它會跳出來，譬如說包括監護權等等的一些提醒，裡面是沒有就同性婚姻這部分有任何提醒，所以第一線人員的處理可能有造成這個當事人的誤解。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我想我就做一個很直接的要求，你們有沒有在同婚法案通過後，對於法規或機制進一步去做調適，來符合各種可能會發生的情境？這個部分可能要請領務局這邊再做一次檢視。第二個，包括你剛才講到第一線人員的訓練或相關的管理這件事情，當然可以做得更周全一點，避免我們看到現在一般人去申請護照時會遇到這樣的困擾，這部分我就請領務局1個月的時間做一個比較清楚的檢討，好不好？這應該沒有問題。"],["何局長震寰：好，我們持續加強，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來，我要請教田次長的事情是，這幾天我們看到在野黨針對上個禮拜大家討論到洩密的事件，我週末看到一個非常讓人擔心的狀況，就是說在野黨接下來可能想要透過在委員會裡面輪番質詢、接力棒式的質詢，希望來改變或是希望給外交部壓力，給外交部壓力是要請外交部改變你們在很多法律行動上面的選擇。次長，你們會被這樣的作法施壓嗎？"],["田次長中光：跟委員報告，我覺得我們會選擇法律跟我們的專業做出最佳的判斷。"],["洪委員申翰：所以你們在這個事件上面，這當然是大家非常、非常關注的事件，你們做出選擇的依據會是基於法律，是嗎？"],["田次長中光：法律跟國家的安全。"],["洪委員申翰：所以現在傳出在野黨要用這種方式來施壓，對你們來說，不會改變你們的選擇？"],["田次長中光：不會。"],["洪委員申翰：不會。我要跟外交部說，我們當然無意要掀起行政部門跟在野黨之間的對立，任何的對立都是我們不樂見的事情，但是該要堅持的法律底線，我認為我們的行政部門必須堅持，如果行政部門連法律底線都無法堅持，那未來可能大家會有非常大的質疑，我們行政部門各種的施政、各種的執行，其依據是什麼、標準是什麼、規則是什麼、秩序是什麼。所以我要請外交部這邊，我認為在接下來這一個禮拜裡面，這個問題、這個議題還會被持續地討論，也許會有很多的挑戰，我同意剛剛次長說，我們必須依據法律來作為外交部在這個事件上面的判斷跟選擇，這部分我也希望次長把這樣的意見帶回部內。這是一個法律問題，這是一個國安問題，這不是一個朝野的問題，這不是一個朝野政治的問題，我希望我們可以把這個議題跟這個問題的本質，我覺得我們要把握清楚，在這個基礎之上來應對各方可能會提出的挑戰，我覺得這是最重要的事情。今天的質詢，在最後我還是想提醒次長這件事情，謝謝。"],["田次長中光：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：已登記質詢的委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.10659375,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.152218750000001,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.50221875,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.56534375,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.762843750000002,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.04596875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.454718750000005,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.64034375,"end":43.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.53471875,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.71534375,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.53096875,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.62721875,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.94096875000001,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.96096875,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.82471875,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.97971875,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.89096875000001,"end":113.53221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.66721875,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.31221875000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.60284375,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.13346875,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.63534375,"end":137.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.95034375,"end":142.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.02096875,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.62721875,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.33471875,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.95034375,"end":192.355343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這個問題我有去做了解那基本上我們的就是我們第一線櫃檯的同仁他在處理這個護照的問題他會有一個標準作業的程序那他使用的這個電腦系統會有所謂的防呆機制防呆機制他裡面會就是說如果這個案子需要注意哪一些的他會跳出來"},{"start":170.743,"end":187.168,"text":"那這裡面跳出來是有譬如說包括監護權、一些提醒,裡面是沒有就同性婚姻這部分會有任何的提醒。所以這個第一線人員的處理可能有造成這個當事人或許有誤解。"},{"start":189.409,"end":205.847,"text":"局長我想我就做一個很直接的要求包括我們在法規或機制上面有沒有在這個同婚的法案通過以後做進一步的去做調適那符合其實可能各種可能會發生的情境這部分可能要請聯護局這邊再做一次檢視"},{"start":207.348,"end":222.155,"text":"第二是說包括你剛才講到我們第一線人員的訓練或相關的管理這事情有沒有可能其實大家可以把這事情做得更周全一點這部分那避免我們看到現在一般的人去申請護照的時候會遇到這樣子的困擾這部分我就請領務局來"},{"start":224.176,"end":249.369,"text":"一個月的時間做一個比較清楚的檢討好不好這應該沒有問題吧是 謝謝委員那接下來我要是要請教田次長的事情是這幾天我們看到在黨那針對上個禮拜大家討論到這個洩密的事件我週末看到一個非常讓人擔心的狀況說在黨接下來可能想要透過在委員會裡面這個輪番的質詢"},{"start":254.944,"end":274.845,"text":"接力棒式的質詢希望來改變或者是希望來給外交部壓力那給外交部壓力是要來請外部要改變你們在很多法律行動上面的選擇次長你們會被這樣的做法施壓嗎"},{"start":276.773,"end":294.356,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得我們會選擇法律跟我們的專業做出最佳的判斷所以你們在在這個事件上面這當然是大家非常非常關注的事件上面你們做出你們的選擇的依據會是基於法律是嗎法律"},{"start":295.177,"end":296.118,"text":"跟國家的安全"},{"start":325.477,"end":325.737,"text":"所以我要請外交部這邊齁"},{"start":353.807,"end":377.5,"text":"我認為接下來在這個禮拜裡面這個問題這個議題還會被持續的討論也許會有很多的挑戰但我同意剛剛次長說我們必須依據法律來作為我們外交部在這個事件上面我們的判斷跟我們的選擇這部分我也希望次長把這樣的意見給帶回到部內這是一個法律問題"},{"start":379.002,"end":379.022,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734acd7bc8d552dc51eab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d75fd09c7090c33d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:04:52 - 11:16:16","影片長度":"00:11:24","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":684,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:16:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T11:04:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部許部長還有警政署陳永利副署長。"],["主席：好，請許部長、陳副署長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，我想保障警消的權益是大家都會非常用心而且很努力來促成，因為畢竟警消是我們社會很重要的力量，當我們聽到「喔咿喔咿」的時候，最期待的就是趕快把事情解決，那要解決這種緊急狀況，尤其是對社會有重大傷害的可能性的時候，其實我們都很期待警消能夠趕快到現場把問題解決，當然在他們權益一定要受到重視的同時，也必須要努力去保障他們該有的權益，這個應該是社會的共識，也是政府要努力去促成的部分。中高齡就業當然也是我們希望針對可以提高國家競爭力持續來關注，本席一直很希望能夠從這邊得到大家的回應，大家一起來努力。","不過我們發現昨天發生一個事情，就是在基隆情人湖院區，這裡是我以前還沒有到國會來工作之前每天上下班都會經過的地方，所以這個地方發生了命案，對我來講，我的感受特別的深刻。依照目前媒體的報導，死者是來臺兩個多月的外籍人士，從這個報導看起來，在禮拜六因為在那邊不曉得發生什麼問題，結果被刺傷然後死亡了，重點在於這個外籍人士要報案的時候發生了一些問題跟困難，他想要尋求警方的協助，可是他把這個訊息傳遞給他在臺灣的男友，這個男友人在新竹，他本身在通訊上或者是他在語言方面有一些障礙，他又打電話從花蓮那邊得到他的朋友協助，最後才報案成功，可是等警方人員到達現場的時候，事實上已經發生了不可逆的這種最後的結果。對我們來講，任何的民眾，不管是臺灣民眾也好，或者是外國的友人，甚至是到臺灣來工作的移工，我們都不希望發生這樣的命案。在這個個案上面，我們看到的就是語言的障礙造成通報的困難，現在假設這樣的狀況是發生在移工身上，那又碰到有語言的障礙，我們有沒有什麼好的方式可以來解決這樣的困難？警政署這邊有沒有一個可以共同促成讓這樣的事情不至於再發生的制度？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實針對這個部分，我們跟警政署之間本來就有協助的機制，像移工如果打1955給我們，我們就會有專人接聽，包括英文，甚至泰語，像這個案件想報案的人是泰籍勞工，我們會有通譯人員來協助，如果是打110的話，我們還有三方通話的協助機制，所以這個目前是有機制，只是說移工是不是知道，各警察局應該要加強宣導。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["陳副署長永利：關於這個案子，我來跟委員報告，可能是報案者顧忌他自己的語言不通，所以他不是在第一時間跟警方報案，剛剛委員有描述過整個過程，其實正如勞動部剛剛講的，我們警政署跟勞動部平常就有這方面的協商機制，一般我們移工的諮詢保護專線是1955，如果他在第一時間打給1955，1955就會通報我們。如果他打給我們，他是講他們那個地方的方言，雖然勤指中心的人員不一定聽得懂，但是我們可以透過打給1955來形成三方通話，其實就可以完成整個瞭解狀況跟報案的程序，所以目前的機制是可以處理，只是說可能就誠如委員剛剛指導的，我們要加強來宣導，包括移工、包括我們的同仁等等，才能夠運用得比較嫻熟，以上。"],["王委員正旭：所以聽起來機制是有的，方法也有，但就是執行的時候難免會有落差，包括現場需不需要通譯人員這個可能性，我們知道也聽到一些反映，一些警察同仁有時候還要自掏腰包去尋求通譯人員的幫助，目前我們有沒有財源或者是可以相支應的基金來協助這部分？"],["陳副署長永利：跟委員報告，其實這部分包括勞動部、包括內政部移民署，因為警察會用到通譯比較多的是涉及刑案，如果問筆錄的時候，這部分包括移民署、警政署都有建立我們通譯的名冊，這個經費政府是提供的，沒有所謂同仁自掏腰包的問題，以上說明。"],["王委員正旭：瞭解。所以其實我們都有相關的機制，希望將來在執行的時候能夠讓它更落實，對於這些有需要的，不管是在臺灣的外籍移工，或者是到臺灣來的這些民眾，也都能夠得到適當的幫助。"],["陳副署長永利：是。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。保障警消權益，剛剛已經提到了，我們再往下看，其實我們也知道警消組工會的訴求，一直以來都很關心，他們希望得到社會的認同，同時也可以讓他們的這個訴求得到更多的重視，不過我想主要的核心問題還是權益必須被政府部門重視，而且要提供完整的保障，早上已經有很多委員也提過相同的問題，再請教一下，在落實保障方面，目前我們政府部門做了哪些努力？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，消防署針對消防人員的訴求，他們其實都有一些計畫，早上其實也有說明，可能署長來說明會比較清楚。"],["主席：請署長上來說明一下。"],["王委員正旭：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好，感謝委員關心消防。事實上，消防在這兩年有滿大的進展，一個部分就是消防法修正，目前新的消防法修正包括職安專章在5月10號已經報到行政院，應該最近會報到大院來審查。當然對於權責的部分，就是法律權責的部分已經處理了；對於保障職安的部分，我們對於消防法專章的處理，這個已經列進去，有10條條文。","另外，為了不光是法律面、執行面，所以我們提了一個5年的中程計畫，針對消防人員的職業安全，當然職業安全絕對不是一蹴可幾，就是透過輔導團隊跟現職的消防人員怎麼互動，這是我們努力的地方，當然人力的部分也是我們努力充實的方向，目前特考班我們預計每年要招收1,000位，警專學生會有400位，以這個部分來做處理，針對裝備器材、廳舍這個部分我們有23個計畫正在執行當中，未來幾年差不多有兩百億的經費會投注在我們消防裝備器材、廳舍這個區塊，當然消防人員的訓練、專業能量，這也是我們目前在訓練中心執行的地方，跟委員簡單做回報，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。所以我們除了讓他安心以外，也要請他們放心，政府各個部門尤其是主管部門努力在幫他們爭取各種權益的同時，也能夠讓他們當初的訴求，有關於他們的放假或者是過勞，或者是相關的權益，都會得到相關的保障，非常感謝。","最後就是有關於勞工就業方案的部分，一直以來我們都很關心這些勞動朋友，他們相關的部分是不是能夠繼續得到大家的關注？我們再往下看，其實我們最想要知道的就是，這個擴大方案到底有沒有真的把該補的洞補好？會不會像我們所看到的，我們本來補了307位，但需要的量反而是越擴大，隨著這個需求，在補足的部分不僅沒有減少，反而在擴大當中，這個部分勞動部目前有沒有更好的方案，或者是相關研究已經有結果可以讓我們知道，未來在補足的部分有哪些更好的措施，可以讓整個市場的需求更為完整？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們這個改善缺工擴大就業方案大概執行到6月底，6月底執行完畢以後，我們當然會有一些成效來檢討，也跟跨部會看後續針對這個缺工的議題要怎麼再來做一些有效的改善，不過，因為我們這個改善缺工擴大就業方案其實有設定一些薪資條件，譬如說，他們原來說有多少缺口，可是當你開出薪資條件的門檻的時候，有些他就沒有來，但是無論如何，願意來的我們都有積極協助，我們都3倍、4倍的人數能夠讓他們挑選勞工來協助，當然也會牽涉到雇主的意願等等，所以這個部分我們的成效會再來做檢討。"],["王委員正旭：好，最後，我們希望能夠把這些成果做個檢討。我們再往下看到最後一張，也期待勞動部能夠適時地提供相關的資訊，讓這個政策的目的可以達到更好的成果，也希望把相關的資料提供給本席做一個參考，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員，接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.214718750000003,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.14221875,"end":19.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.14596875,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.21346875,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.96846875,"end":23.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.504093750000003,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.305343750000002,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.44034375,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.313468750000002,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.91909375,"end":45.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.032218750000006,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.38596875,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.072843750000004,"end":83.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.96721875,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.99221875,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.96221875,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.69721875,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.39096875000001,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.22971875000002,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.24034375000002,"end":163.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.32596875000002,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.52784375000002,"end":206.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.23909375000002,"end":218.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.74784375000002,"end":219.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.59159375000002,"end":225.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.22784375,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.14721875,"end":231.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.09596875000003,"end":233.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.63159375,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.10784375000003,"end":239.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.97659375,"end":241.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.73159375,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.12346875000003,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.91659375,"end":249.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.38846875000002,"end":258.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.06221875,"end":269.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.81159375000004,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.90284375000005,"end":282.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.61971875,"end":296.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.04784375,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.17846875000004,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.85221875,"end":331.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.77596875,"end":309.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.82221875000005,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.65846875,"end":333.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.24471875,"end":359.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.86096875000004,"end":359.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.73846875000004,"end":377.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.58346875,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.40971875,"end":386.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.77221875000004,"end":401.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.14534375000005,"end":406.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.15721875,"end":417.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.13846875,"end":431.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.44034375,"end":436.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.68471875,"end":433.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.73534375,"end":434.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.08971875000003,"end":434.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.63784375,"end":436.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.38409375000003,"end":518.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.6840937500001,"end":565.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5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案件中,外籍人士要報案時發生了一些問題和困難,他想要尋求警方協助,可是他把這個訊息傳遞給他在台灣的男友,這個男友是在新竹,他本身"},{"start":145.128,"end":146.628,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件 》案。"},{"start":164.369,"end":164.509,"text":"〔民眾擬具〕"},{"start":188.362,"end":206.699,"text":"假設這樣的狀況出現是一個移工的時候又碰到這樣的語言障礙那我們有沒有什麼好的方式來解決這樣的困難警政署這邊有沒有共同可以促成讓這樣的過程不至於再發生的可能性"},{"start":207.281,"end":236.694,"text":"包括委員其實針對這個部分我們跟警政署之間本來就有協助的機制他如果像移工如果他打1955給我們我們就會有專人那個包括英文甚至泰語剛剛像這個是太極老公泰語都我們會有通訊人員來協助那甚至如果是110的話我們還有三方通話的協助機制所以這個應該是有目前是可以有"},{"start":237.21,"end":240.837,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":246.449,"end":268.51,"text":"這個案我來跟委員報告這個案是當可能報案報案者他可能顧及他自己的語言怕所以他不是第一時間跟警方報案就剛剛的過程剛剛委員有描述過那其實剛剛證實說我們勞動部講的其實我們警政使跟勞動部平常就有做他們的協商的機制就是一般我們"},{"start":270.249,"end":297.486,"text":"公的諮詢保護專線就是1955,那如果說他第一時間打給1955,1955會通報我們。如果他打給我們,如果說像可能他講地方他們的方言,我們可能引警,因為清除中心不一定會通,那我們可以透過打給1955形成三方通話,其實就可以完成整個瞭解狀況跟報案的程序。所以目前的機制是可以,只是說可能就"},{"start":298.446,"end":315.72,"text":"稱呼委員剛指導的要我們要加強來先導包括移工包括我們的同仁等等能才能夠應用的比較鮮熟以上是所以聽起來機制是有的方法也有的可是就是執行的時候難免會有落差嗎那包括說現場的需不需要同意人員"},{"start":316.56,"end":321.821,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":345.708,"end":363.251,"text":"), ️ ️"},{"start":363.351,"end":376.169,"text":"除此之外,我希望將來在執行的時候能夠讓它更落實,那對於這些有需要的不管是在台灣外籍移工或者是到台灣來的這些民眾也都能夠得到適當的幫助。好,謝謝。"},{"start":379.625,"end":406.482,"text":"那保障這個警消權益剛剛已經提到了嘛那我們再往下看其實我們也知道這個警消組工會的訴求一直以來都是很關心他們希望得到社會的認同同時也可以去讓他們的這個訴求可以得到更多的重視不過我想主要的核心問題還是權益必須要被政府部門能夠重視而且要提供完整的保障"},{"start":407.722,"end":436.688,"text":"早上已經有很多的委員提過相同的問題,那再請教就是說在落實這個保障方面目前我們政府部門做了哪一些的努力?那個,報告委員,其實那個消防署這邊齁,其實針對警消人員的一些訴求齁,消防人員的訴求,他們其實都有一些計畫齁,早上他其實也有說明,那個可能署長這邊來說比較清楚。是不是請署長上來說明一下。好。"},{"start":440.421,"end":460.516,"text":"委員好感謝委員關心消防事實上消防在這兩年有蠻大的一個進展一個部分就是消防法修正目前新的消防法修正包括治安專章已經報到憲政院5月10號報到憲政院應該最近會報到大院來審查當然對於權責的部分就是法律權責已經處理了"},{"start":462.177,"end":477.771,"text":"對於保職安的部分我們對於消防法專章的處理這個已經列入列進去有10條的條文另外為了讓這個不是光是法律面執行面所以我們提了一個5年的忠誠計劃針對消防局的資源安全"},{"start":478.251,"end":497.676,"text":"當然事業安全絕對不是一觸可及就透過輔導團隊跟限職的消防警員怎麼互動這是我們在努力的地方當然人力的部分也是我們充實的一個努力方向目前特考班我們預計要招收每年一千位專科學生警專學生會四百位讓這個部分來做處理當然裝備器材聽測這個部分我們有23個計畫正在執行當中"},{"start":503.357,"end":503.377,"text":"), 委員"},{"start":518.76,"end":540.163,"text":"好 謝謝所以我們除了讓他安心以外也要請他們放心政府各個部門尤其主管部門都有努力的在幫他們爭取各種權益的同時也能夠讓他們當初訴求有關於他們的這個放假啦或者是過勞啦或者是相關的這些權益都會得到相關的保障"},{"start":540.623,"end":569.138,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":569.218,"end":569.358,"text":"〈一〉國民黨黨團擬具〉"},{"start":599.946,"end":619.406,"text":"瓜委員,我們這個改善擴大缺工的這個就業方案大概執行就是到6月底。6月底執行完畢,我們大概會有一些成效來檢討,也跟跨部會看後續,針對這個缺工的議題要怎麼再來做一些有效的改善。"},{"start":620.587,"end":625.631,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案："},{"start":650.567,"end":652.55,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":667.79,"end":678.507,"text":"除此之外,我們也期待勞動部能夠適時提供相關的資訊,讓政策的目的可以達到更好的成果。希望把相關的資料提供給本席做參考。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734e32918fb3f90f8e9a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d59d0ed36465ba0c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:09:10 - 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告一樣是做評估那外交部的評估是稍微比較正面你的評估第一點是歐盟逐漸凸顯歐中關係是對手的論述第二點就是說法國展現對歐盟對中國的一致立場對不對這是你們評估嘛"},{"start":227.312,"end":249.498,"text":"那歐盟當然也包括匈牙利那國安局的評估呢歐盟個別國家包括匈牙利塞爾維亞現在不是嘛法國當然也是歐盟個別國家將平衡發展對中關係到底歐盟對這個中國關係有沒有一致還是未來未來是"},{"start":252.005,"end":265.687,"text":"繼續深化一致還是會朝向這個經貿跟這個政治把它分開變成說這個歐盟對中政策還有有分裂性或者議題的這個差別性這個誰來回答"},{"start":267.611,"end":267.991,"text":"徐副局長"},{"start":288.621,"end":291.924,"text":"每個國家跟中共多少少都有一些經貿往來這個都是我們在持續觀察的對象"},{"start":316.325,"end":343.148,"text":"那我們這個歐盟國家裡面親中立場比較明確的如果你不方便回答你是要再跟我講你說親中立場比較明確歐盟裡面我是覺得有些親中立場明確有些是比較模糊有些是反對所以這些你就是要把這個等級劃分出來然後請外交部或相關部會去針對這個比較親中的國家我們加強對他們外交作為是"},{"start":344.475,"end":354.371,"text":"另外一個小議題,這個,看那個網路,這個,因為高鐵趕不上了,繼續問,這個境外,這個再一分鐘,"},{"start":360.138,"end":388.783,"text":"這個我的臉書常常因為都是我的幕僚在幫我管理臉書所以我臉書常常被冒用被冒用太多了已經大概五六次了我就請警察局他就叫我去下架有沒有掌握這個特定人士包括我們有可能接觸到國家機密或者我們有接觸到政策、立法有沒有可能這些被假冒的來源國是來自於中國"},{"start":389.878,"end":417.543,"text":"我們有很多數的個案請國安團隊去追查最後都是在境外境外當然有沒有包括中國他還有一些跳板所以也有港澳也有在外國新加坡在中國或者港澳你要特別注意另外一個你再看一下這個他直接問我說啊這個他們是歐亞什麼歐亞研究中心"},{"start":419.073,"end":425.285,"text":"他說這個要請我這個寫文章這個要跟我合作我想這個是誰啊"},{"start":426.872,"end":427.132,"text":"歐亞發展研究中心"}]}},{"id":"152441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173464e7af87a8cb8367ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4da1ba94de77a37a3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:56:56 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11:10:46","影片長度":"00:13:50","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":830,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:10:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:56:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時57分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：來，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長辛苦了，謝謝你七年多來對教育的付出……"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝召委，應該的。"],["林委員宜瑾：讓我們教育一直在進步的路上前進著。","談到今天我想要跟您談的話題，面對中國整天對臺灣的文攻武嚇，它國際上戰狼的形象其實受到很多的質疑，所以他們的孔子學院名義上是在推廣語言跟文化，可是卻接連爆出很多限制學術自由這種學術的醜聞，所以臺灣的華語教學，我覺得勢必要趁這個時候，用我們最美麗的繁體字、用我們自由民主的文化，來搶下華語的優勢，我想成為外國人學習華語的首選，這個時候正是時候，我們要用最堅強的軟實力替臺灣外交爭一口氣，所以華語的教學人員就變得相對地重要，他成為我們搶到華語教學這個版圖很重要的角色。我們來談到華語教學人員的待遇，其實非常地不一致，我們先看國內的華語中心，很多都是兼任的，三個月一聘，甚至都沒有勞健保，如果學生數不足的話，他失業資遺的任何保障，其實也都不用華語中心來負擔。至於鐘點費，低的是250到300，高的當然可以到700、800，好的有到1,000，所以收入真的很不穩定。","我們再看外派到海外的華語教學人員的待遇，因為教育部每個月有補助1,200到1,900美元的生活補助，再加上當地學校給的薪資，所以差不多能符合他們在當地的需求開銷，好一點的還可以存到一點錢。不過補助的期間以一年為原則，如果接到國外學校的續聘者，當然可以續約，我們也可以延長補助，可是那也要獲得學校的續聘。如果教學人員跟學校談調薪的話，學校可能就會請教育部再多聘華語教學人員來就好，通常他們給我們的經驗是這樣，教學人員要跟當地的學校談調薪基本上幾乎都是沒有的事情，所以講難聽一點就好像是免洗筷一樣，用過就丟。好，上述我剛剛提的真的就是我們華語教學人員的困境，不管是在外國的或者在國內的，所以我們看到很多教華語的所謂的學長姐都會在網站上叫學弟妹快逃，這就顯示出他們覺得自己在生活上、待遇上的不穩定性。所以臺灣如果想要發展華語，我覺得我們對於華語教學人員的保障就應該要特別的重視，我們怎麼樣有精進的作為，讓這些華語教學人員的保障有一定程度的穩定性，讓他們可以留著？還有，就是我們到底有沒有信心，在三至五年內取代孔子學院，讓外國人要學習華語時就先想到臺灣？部長？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝召委對於華語教育、華語師資這個議題的關注，我也跟召委報告，確實，華語教師、尤其是派外到學校去做這方面的教學支援，其實常常都有，當然挑戰也會比較大啦，所以剛才召委提到有關於相關的聘任及規範，我也請國際司這邊要把幾個制度能夠再完整化，因為這樣才能夠穩定師資。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：包含我們自己國內，有幾所大學也都有設華語中心，就是國內外的這部分，我想這個制度要把它再完整……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，這個薪資……"],["潘部長文忠：包含薪資，因為確實也必須要……"],["林委員宜瑾：這個鐘點費很不一致！"],["潘部長文忠：要與時俱進，不然怕長期下來他們被忽略了，我想這方面應該要做後續的處理。就目前來說，因為希望能更穩定的拓展我們在國外的這些，像剛才談到的優華語教育，就是學校對學校、大學對大學，這個其實在穩定上會更好，讓學校這邊可以比較穩定。對於新南向的這些國家，我們也會結合常設在當地的攬才基地，我想這個都會有助於未來我們在一些國外據點上可以有一個更穩健的推動機制在，所以我想對於剛才委員關心的個別華語師資的這些議題，我們希望留得住優秀、熱心的人才，在基地的部分或學校的部分，我們希望它是更穩定。不過我也跟召委報告，臺灣推華語教育不會像中國的孔子學院，因為那個太強烈的引發很多國家的反彈，確實我們在這樣做的過程當中，從今天的書面報告也看得出來，我們學習華語的華語生其實人數是一直在增加的，112學年度的統計已經到三萬六千多人，這是來臺灣的啦，表示說臺灣對於他們在華語的學習上應該有相當的吸引力，這個我們會持續來強化。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，希望未來真的可以成為所謂外國人來學習華語的首選，臺灣是首選。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：再來本席要跟您談談公費留學生的問題，我們現在很積極在招攬國際留學生來臺灣念書，臺灣有人才的缺口部分，我們也希望這些國際生念完書可以留下來填補我們的人力缺口。國際生的交流是雙向的，所以我們的學生也會到國外去學習並增能，我有注意到，近幾年公費留學的名額逐年在增加，可是報名的人數卻是下降的，這部分除了是疫情影響的關係之外，不曉得教育部有沒有研判還有哪些原因？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，確實我們在名額上是一直在增加，但報名的部分就如委員所說的，確實看起來不像過往那麼好。對於這個部分，在政策上我們會持續來推，也跟召委這邊報告，因為現在很多學生未必是用公費留學取得學位，有滿多是用交換學生的方式，因為現在很多學校也有這種交換學生，他可以有一段時間到國外去接觸到……"],["林委員宜瑾：相對多元了。"],["潘部長文忠：但不像公費學生一綁就要多少年……"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解。"],["潘部長文忠：我覺得這個形式也應該是跟過往比較有不同的地方。另外，我也跟召委報告，我們其實也推一些專案，我發現它的效果是滿好的，比如說像設計人才的蹲點計畫，一個學生申請核定以後，這個當然還滿嚴格的，比如他是以服裝時尚為主，真的，他選擇的地點就是法國巴黎，去一年，因為我也好幾次有機會聽他們分享，其實他們是有得到成長或真正學到東西，因為見識到世界一流的師資跟學生，因為可能就交會在那裡，所以這一種型態可能跟過往我們說以公費方式去幾年然後取得學位等等的，我是覺得有比較多樣化啦。召委也知道，我們即將上任的賴總統在這個部分有提出一個圓夢基金百億的構想，如果以教育部在推動學生交流的這個概念，我覺得那個會是一個可以讓臺灣孩子有機會踏出國門去做更多的見識跟學習，也就是我們原來有一些比較零星、比較額度不足的，如果這個計畫能順利的推動，我覺得對打開臺灣孩子的國際視野有幫助。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。另外，教育部從2017年就有推動新南向國家公費留學，這部分每年都開設10個名額，可是報名人數也都是十幾、二十人，2022年度甚至只有7個人報名，2023年也只有11個人報名，這兩年的錄取人數其實只有5個人，也就是不到足額。當然啦，有學生反映是說，除了疫情的關係以外，可能教育部好像也沒有太積極在宣傳，這個部分可能要更積極宣傳來吸引學生報名。當然，我想這個可能還有一些家長觀念的問題，畢竟大家都希望往歐美或東亞等地方去留學，所以往所謂的東南亞或南邊去留學會不會被認為好像就是成績不夠好，不然為什麼要去東南亞留學？會不會有這種觀念，所以造成新南向國家公費留學生的報名人數低落的原因，不曉得部長怎麼看？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，確實從比較長時段來看，臺灣孩子如果要留學或公費留學，確實歐美是他們比較感興趣的啦……"],["林委員宜瑾：首選。"],["潘部長文忠：應該可以看得出來，但是新南向這些國家，其實從這些年我們跟他們的互動看來，我覺得真的相較過往是有很大的開展。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒錯！"],["潘部長文忠：當然，剛才召委提到，宣導還是必要啦，因為也許學生還是停留在以往學長學姐告訴他們要留學就先往哪些國家去，所以我覺得這個部分，包含今天的報告也提到，最近我們跟新南向國家其實有好多互動，新南向國家到臺灣來的學生也越來越多是相當優秀的學生，這個人數也在增加，所以對於這個雙向互動，我們要再加強宣導。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後再花30秒要來關心的是，之前有發現新南向產學合作專班的學生來臺違法打工的事情，現在教育部在推新型專班，很多人都擔心這個會不會有漏洞，就是再發生所謂打黑工的事件。外國學生來臺就學辦法規定「大專校院辦理外國學生招生事務，除宣傳推廣及協助學生辦理來臺相關必要程序外，不得委由校外機構、法人、團體或個人辦理」，可是真的就沒有發生過仲介透過各種名目把手伸進去這個招生事務嗎？教育部推動這個國際專修部，讓外籍生可以先修習華語一年，有確實打擊到仲介的生態嗎？專科以上的學校維護外國學生的受教權專案審查結果有多少比例是不符合規定？這部分是哪些違規比較多？"],["潘部長文忠：召委，詳細的我再提供書面……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為時間的關係。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟召委報告，新南向產攜國際專班確實招生初期，我們有看到……"],["林委員宜瑾：一些亂象。"],["潘部長文忠：國內學校真的在這個方面的準備跟心態，我覺得是不足的，發現了幾個我們認為嚴重的現象，教育部是採取非常嚴厲的處置，也跟學校非常嚴格的要求，後來我們修了幾個規範，包含現在的這些辦法都是以那個為基礎，很重要的，讓學校知道絕對不得透過仲介人力，這個辦法除了宣示以外，要求我們發的學生入學通知一定要給當事的學生，而且要用學生他的語言，比如來自越南的孩子、來自印尼的孩子，你給他的入學說明要包括他的科系、權利義務等等，是以這個方式處理。像過去學校根本不知道它招的是什麼學生，學生也不知道他要到臺灣的什麼學校讀什麼科系，這部分確實改變了，所以我想這部分我要謝謝當時包括我們的召委還有幾位委員，也提供我們很多應該改變的，這些我想在後面，除了擴大了那個計畫，包含新型專班，其實在規範上都更明確了。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。謝謝部長，辛苦了。謝謝召委。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝召委。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。接下來請吳沛憶委員，吳沛憶委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.40971875,"end":9.177218750000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那我們再看外派到海外的這個華語教學人員的待遇好了因為教育部因為每個月有補助一千二到一千九的美元的生活補助再加上當地學校給的薪資所以差不多能符合他們的在當地的這個需求開銷好一點的還可以存到一點錢齁那可是不過補助的期間只有一年為限那一年為原則啦齁那當然有貨到"},{"start":146.926,"end":166.558,"text":"如果接到國外學校的續聘者當然可以續約我們也可以延長補助可是那也要獲得學校的續聘那如果說好的就是教學人員如果跟學校談條心的話那學校可能就會再請教育部再聘多聘這個華語教學人員來就好"},{"start":168.318,"end":194.771,"text":"通常他們給我們的經驗是這樣所以如果說教學人員要跟當地的學校談條心那基本上幾乎都是沒有的事情所以講難聽一點就是說好像棉洗筷一樣就是用過就丟這樣那上述我剛提的真的就是我們華語教學人員的困境不管是在外國的或者在國內的"},{"start":195.951,"end":196.392,"text":"林宜瑾 林宜瑾"},{"start":211.491,"end":211.631,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":226.727,"end":226.747,"text":"部長．"},{"start":251.274,"end":255.198,"text":"謝謝張偉對於華語教育、華語師資的議題的關注我也跟張偉報告確實華語教師尤其是派外到學校去做這方面的教學的資源當然挑戰也會比較大所以剛才張偉所提到的在有關"},{"start":272.978,"end":273.178,"text":"中典費很不一致"},{"start":301.254,"end":301.334,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":322.998,"end":323.058,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":345.384,"end":347.444,"text":"臺灣推華語教育不會像這個中國的孔子學院因為那個太強烈的引發很多國家的這些反彈因為確實我們在這樣做的過程當中"},{"start":371.009,"end":371.109,"text":"李宗盛"},{"start":393.05,"end":400.337,"text":"希望未來真的成為所謂的外國人來學習華語的首選台灣是首選再來本席要跟您談談公費留學生的問題我們現在很積極在招攬國際留學生來台灣唸書那台灣有人才的缺口部分我們也希望這些國際生唸完書可以留下來來填補我們人力缺口"},{"start":415.491,"end":416.632,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":436.538,"end":460.055,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們在名額上一直在增加那從報名就如委員所說的確實看起來不想過往那麼這個除了我想政策上我們會持續來推那也跟趙委這邊報告因為現在很多學生他未必是用公費留學取得學位"},{"start":460.575,"end":460.715,"text":"林宜瑾"},{"start":487.165,"end":494.708,"text":"我發現他的效果是蠻好的像我們有一些叫做設計比如像設計人才的這種蹲點的計畫比如一個學生我們他申請合訂以後這當然還蠻嚴格的他比如說他是以服裝時尚為主的真的他選擇地點就是法國巴黎那去一年"},{"start":507.674,"end":511.737,"text":"他發現這種回來因為我也好幾次都有機會聽他們分享其實他們得到的成長或真正學到因為見識到世界一流的師資跟學生因為可能就教會在那裡所以這種形態可能跟過往我們說一定以公費的方式幾年取得學位等等的我是覺得有比較多樣化"},{"start":531.553,"end":531.673,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":550.717,"end":551.238,"text":"教育部從2017年推動新南向國家公費留學"},{"start":570.254,"end":590.245,"text":"這部分每年都開設10個名額可是報名人數也都是十幾二十人那2022年度甚至只有7個人報名那2023也只有11個人報名所以這兩年的錄取人數其實也只有5個人就是也不到足額那我想當然這個有學生反應是說"},{"start":591.526,"end":600.272,"text":"除了疫情的關係以外可能就是說教育部好像也沒有太積極在宣傳就是說這部分可能要更積極宣傳來吸引學生報名當然我想這個可能還有一些教養觀念的問題所以除了就是說後面認為說大家都希望往歐美或東亞"},{"start":611.038,"end":611.378,"text":"不曉得部長你怎麼看"},{"start":632.251,"end":639.557,"text":"這個確實從比較長時段來看臺灣孩子當時在如果說留學啦或公費留學確實歐美是他們比較燃進去的啦應該可以看得出來但是新南向這些國家啦其實在這些年的我們跟他們的互動我覺得真的其實是跟相較過往是有很大的開展"},{"start":657.191,"end":657.551,"text":"雙向互動我們要再加強宣導"},{"start":686.778,"end":710.871,"text":"所以說在花30秒就是說關心說之前有發現說新南向產學合作專班的學生來臺違法打工的這個事情那現在教育部在推新型專班很多都擔心說這個會不會有漏洞就是說在發生所謂打黑工的事件那外國學生來臺就學辦法的規定招生事務就是說除了宣傳推廣跟協助學生辦理來臺的相關的必要程序外"},{"start":711.471,"end":712.172,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":741.371,"end":746.176,"text":"新南向產西國際專班確實招生初期我們有看到國內的學校真的在這個方面的準備跟心態我覺得是不足的"},{"start":757.749,"end":764.831,"text":"那發現了幾個這個嚴重的我們講的真的叫做嚴重的現象教育部是採取非常嚴厲的處置也跟學校非常嚴格的要求後來我們修了幾個包含現在這些辦法都是以那個為基礎那很重要的讓學校知道絕對不得透過仲介人力那這個辦法除了宣誓以外其實是要我們發的學生入學通知適用一定要給當事學生"},{"start":787.357,"end":802.069,"text":"學生愛用他的語言 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bay好油，他說「林北要戰到底」，要戰徐巧芯戰到底啊！這樣的國安會秘書長以後發文給你寫「林北」……"],["田次長中光：有見諸文字嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：媒體一大堆，怎麼沒有呢？你都沒在看報紙嗎？"],["田次長中光：公文書沒有看到啊！"],["賴委員士葆：公文沒有講，但他在網路平臺這樣寫啦。請教副局長，他以後是你的長官，他講「林北」你覺得怎麼樣呢？"],["徐副局長錫祥：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：他在網路平臺裡面講「林北戰到底」！"],["徐副局長錫祥：剛好我是讀法律的，每個文字根據不同的人、不同的時間，它要表達的內容可能評價上都不是很一致。"],["賴委員士葆：「林北」是不是粗話？我問你是不是粗話？"],["徐副局長錫祥：有時候會……"],["賴委員士葆：是不是粗話？我問你是不是粗話？"],["徐副局長錫祥：所以我跟委員報告，單就這個字來評斷是不是粗話，在法院的實務見解不會這麼認定。現在有很多……我講出來可能太不禮貌了，像有時候他媽的是口頭禪，法官也會認為這不是刻意侮辱人的意思，所以同樣的文字在不同的場合講出來，內容不能一致，不能單就一句話來認為是不是粗話。我想在法院這邊可能有所保留。"],["賴委員士葆：所以吳釗燮講「林北」你可以接受？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我沒有看到全文，所以很難評斷。"],["賴委員士葆：你媒體讀一下就有了，媒體記者一堆在這裡，他說「林北戰到底」，看了實在傻眼！以前只要有人講這話，人家會說「爆粗口」、「爆粗話」，「林北」這樣講，「教歹囡仔大細」！這麼大一個官，要接國安會秘書長，居然爆這樣的粗口，好嗎？次長，好嗎？他是你長官，你當然不敢講話，對不對？你如果講話，人家委員說你要篡位！我看你是個知書達禮的人，你覺得講「林北」好嗎？我請問你！次長，不敢評論長官的話？"],["田次長中光：當然。這是長官的話，我們不會批評，但我們還是要看他在什麼場合講的！如果說是在……"],["賴委員士葆：公開場合！如果私底下就算了！私底下的口頭禪就算了，對不對？但他很大，講「林北」，怎麼會在公開場合、網路平臺這樣講呢？應該很不好啦！"],["田次長中光：應該不是在政府機構的一些場域講的話！"],["賴委員士葆：他在Threads平臺裡面講的話，非常不好啦！然後他要帶領國安會，我就不知道以後你們國安會怎麼跟他搭配？國安會現在看到的吳釗燮是道地的戰狼，是不是？請問次長，現在來講，520之前有沒有可能再被斷交？原來部長講最可能有兩個國家，一個叫海地，一個叫瓜地馬拉，可不可能？"],["田次長中光：跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：危險不危險？"],["田次長中光：部長好像沒有提到這兩個國家的名字，他是說有兩個國家有危機。"],["賴委員士葆：外面猜測是這兩個。"],["田次長中光：外面猜測我不便置喙，但短期之內應該沒有這個憂慮，長期我們會非常、非常關注。"],["賴委員士葆：請教副局長，現在5月了，520之前或者之後，短時間內外交方面有沒有被斷交的危機？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們尊重外交部的說法。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有沒有掌握到情資？"],["徐副局長錫祥：以我們掌握的情資來說，目前還沒有這樣的跡象。"],["賴委員士葆：再請教外交部，我們不追求正式邦交國了，我們追求一個叫……你們真的很會換詞彙，叫「價值外交」，什麼叫價值外交？次長講一下吧？"],["田次長中光：價值外交就是臺灣現在所擁有、全世界所尊重的一個價值：民主、自由、人權，我們的……"],["賴委員士葆：當然可以講價值外交、文化外交，什麼外交都可以，但最重要的是：要邦交國啊，不然外交部成立幹什麼？我們一個國家就是要有正式的邦交國，而且越多越好，越多人承認我們越好。現在退縮了，因為外交國不斷減少，所以換一個名詞「價值外交」，臺灣追求的民主、自由、人權，讓全世界來支持我們，這叫「黑龍轉桌」，你知道嗎？外交部的成績不好，所以只好轉這樣子！吳釗燮任內斷交這麼多國，他還好意思繼續當部長？還要做國安會秘書長？還要講「林北」？我們真是服了他了！不過站在政黨政治的立場、政黨競爭的立場，我們歡迎吳釗燮繼續當官。"],["主席：時間關係，謝謝。","接下來請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在。","請鄭天財委員、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請張啓楷委員、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.25034375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.65534375,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.30909375,"end":6.578468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.01721875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.050968750000001,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.83534375,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.695968750000002,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.15096875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.79596875,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.85784375,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.96721875,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.83596875,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.21909375,"end":38.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.438468750000006,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.657843750000005,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.45096875,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.55221875,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.58596875,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.62346875,"end":46.150343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.70721875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.86284375,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.49534375,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.604093750000004,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.77284375000001,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.28721875,"end":63.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.03346875,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.00221875000001,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.14971875,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.63846875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.31346875,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.64659375000001,"end":84.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.01784375000001,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.03471875000001,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.02596875,"end":88.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.58284375000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.52346875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.96221875,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.23221875,"end":93.26534375}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11:04:48","影片長度":"00:05:26","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":326,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:04:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:59:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時59分）主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會，也就是原民台，原民台是其中重要的業務，他們是要從現在中視的地點，也就是在臺北市南港重陽路，在明年底要搬遷到桃園大溪的領航路四段，到這裡上班開車或者是騎摩托車都要很久，當然開車的人比較少，大部分都是騎摩托車，在辦公室搬到那邊以後要很久。基本上，現在他們大部分的員工都住在……當然住在臺北市的比較少，住在汐止或是基隆那些地方會更遠。另外就是財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會要從羅斯福路一段搬到桃園大園區的領航路四段，也是一樣，如果騎摩托車的話，都要一個多小時，如果他從現在住的地方去的話，也會比較遠。所以在這樣的情形之下，就會涉及到員工要調動工作的地點，根據勞動基準法第十條之一第四款規定：調動工作地點過遠，雇主應予以必要之協助；第五款規定：考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益，因為這個是政府的政策，要從臺北市搬遷到桃園，在明年底就會進駐到那邊，請問勞動部這邊對於員工的權益……因為畢竟他們也是第一次，都不瞭解相關的部分到底應該有怎麼樣的協助，你們是不是能夠提供相關的案例？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我會請關係司的王司長針對這個部分來協助員工，因為這個在勞基法規定得很清楚，雇主要予以必要的協助，然後也不能影響到勞工家庭的生活利益，所以我們會告知他們法律上的權益，然後我們也會協助讓一切能夠符合法律的規範，以確保他們的權益。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，就是要請勞動部針對這些相關的案例，過去你們有受理很多相關的案例，看要怎麼樣去協助，這裡面就包含交通的補助或是要提供居住相關的協助呢？或者是像家庭裡面可能有小孩子，在就學方面能不能優先就讀？本來他在這裡的幼兒園或者是這邊的國小就讀，現在要搬到那邊，就是會有這樣的問題，如果他們真的要舉家遷過去的話，這個部分看你們對很多相關案例是怎麼協助，然後跟桃園市政府勞工局或其他相關機關一起來做，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外，經濟委員會上次有審查中小企業發展條例，這裡面特別針對中小企業增僱一定人數有這樣的一個規定，就是他的年齡是要45歲以上，因為今天我們在談中高齡者就業的問題，對不對？然後現在我們少子女化，勞工也少了，我們一直希望中高齡者能夠就業，所以給中小企業很多的協助是應該的，但是到底我們的勞工有沒有受益，因為在討論的時候大家有不同的意見，所以在協商的時候希望勞動部能夠提供到底規定45歲以上對不對，當初的規劃可能是這樣，可是我認為定為四十五歲就太低了，因為真正要照顧的應該是勞工，好不好？在協商的時候請你們提供寶貴的意見。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，接下來我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.86096875,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.42534375,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.48409375,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.11534375,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.730968750000002,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.329718750000005,"end":33.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.98346875,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.53159375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.37096875,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.782843750000005,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.76221875,"end":73.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.33159375000001,"end":77.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.26346875,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.47846875,"end":80.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.95034375,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.34659375000001,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.36346875000001,"end":86.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.76409375,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.59909375000001,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.69034375000001,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.15409375,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.82471875,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.14096875000001,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.30096875000001,"end":110.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.93346875,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.76846875000001,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.23221875,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.83534375,"end":118.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.06721875000001,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.11721875,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.69096875000001,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.33159375,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.82909375,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":135.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.99284375000002,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.84846875,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.39659375000002,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":153.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.18846875,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.39909375000002,"end":155.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.69846875000002,"end":158.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.60534375,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.19971875000002,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.10596875000002,"end":168.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.67971875,"end":172.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.61159375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.15909375,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.88034375,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.34409375,"end":184.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.79534375,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.71846875,"end":195.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.59534375,"end":198.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.05471875,"end":200.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.97846875000002,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.61534375000002,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.05971875,"end":221.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.51909375000002,"end":239.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.94284375,"end":244.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.58346875,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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委員王育敏等21人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體"},{"start":184.804,"end":184.824,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":201.03,"end":205.172,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":224.462,"end":225.904,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":246.167,"end":274.177,"text":"另外就是說這個我們經濟委員會上次在審查這個中小企業發展條例這裡面特地針對這個中小企業增僱一定的人數這樣的一個規定到底這個人數還有包括他的這個年齡啊年齡到底要45歲以上因為現在這個中高齡今天談中高齡嘛"},{"start":274.817,"end":287.849,"text":" entreprene?然後現在這個我們的草址擬化勞工也少了然後我們這個中高齡的一直希望能夠就業類似像這樣到底應該因為"},{"start":290.666,"end":298.411,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹖第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹖"},{"start":317.643,"end":322.17,"text":"兆顧的應該是勞工了,好不好?協商的時候你們提供保規的意見,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17342caf5525a2883e77076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4dee80647815cb38f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:57:44 - 11:03:51","影片長度":"00:06:07","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":367,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:03:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:57:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":840,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時57分）謝謝主席，請原民會副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：副主委好。剛剛大家都在關心，因為明年下半年原住民族語言傳播大樓就要啟用了，啟用之後，其實原住民族文化事業基金會及語言發展基金會所有工作同仁都要去到青埔，現在看起來原文會、原語會兩個基金會的工作同仁加起來大概有289位職員對嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，原文會270人，原語會37人。"],["黃委員捷：所以加起來大概也是將近300位的同仁要到桃園青埔的新辦公室，其實也有傳出蠻多員工擔心搬遷後他們的居住、交通或是子女教育的問題該怎麼辦，因為我有看到在2019年的時候，其實原文會自己有做過內部調查，只有15%的員工願意搬遷是嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：剛剛的說明好像是15%不願意，不過那是最初的調查。"],["黃委員捷：那現在的狀況是如何呢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：經過我們9次的會議，要一起過去的是高比例啦！"],["黃委員捷：高比例是多少？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們預估大概八成的員工都願意跟我們一起奮鬥。"],["黃委員捷：當然我也希望你們在這樣子搬遷的過程，還是要保障所有員工的權益，一定是要符合勞基法的，並且協助他們在生活的起居上面，所有相關的都已經做好準備了，所以我想要再一次的督促，只要在這個搬遷過程有員工有任何的需要，你們一定都要盡全力來協助好嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["黃委員捷：其實這就是這一次的搬遷爭議大家最關心的，因為之前也有看到桃園有承諾這兩個基金會員工的搬遷會用社會住宅來做專案的處理，不知道你們跟桃園市有做任何的接洽嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們跟桃園市政府總共開了3次會議，有關的安排，後續正在進行，市議員也在協助我們。"],["黃委員捷：所以現在他們說的這個社會住宅是有在做的嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是、是、是。"],["黃委員捷：所以在明年下半年之前，這個社會住宅是絕對可行的？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是、是。"],["黃委員捷：讓所有員工都可以入住？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我希望你們要作出保證的。","再來，我們請原民會副主委。我想要請教反歧視法的部分，其實行政院的人權處在5月2號已經公告反歧視法的草案了，我也非常的支持，因為我覺得反歧視法現在是散落在所有的法律裡面，很需要有一部統合的法律。關於原住民族的歧視案例，之前也有看到很多，尤其是去年有幾個在學校裡面發生的，我其實蠻於心不忍的，覺得應該要從學校教育開始做起，包括之前中一中的園遊會，他們的文宣就發生過歧視的案例，包括我的母校，在臺大的學生自治選舉裡面，也都出現過非常多嘲笑的案例，我看了覺得蠻難過的，當時我甚至出來發聲說：就算是學校裡面的選舉，也都不應該出現這樣子歧視的言論。我想知道的是，去年5月內政委員會有針對這些歧視性的言論排過一個專報，那時候夷將主委有說要跟教育部開會，盤點過去的歧視案件，針對落實多元文化教育要進行相關的討論，不知道在去年開會之後，到現在你們做的相關整理是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，我們除了跟教育部在教育政策會就這個部分拿出來討論，通令各學校針對反歧視議題做處理之外……"],["主席：請底下的溝通小聲一點，好不好？尊重一下我們質詢委員。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們也出版一些原住民的相關書籍或介紹發送到各學校，也能夠變成他們的教育教材，提供做參考，希望能夠多認識原住民的文化。"],["黃委員捷：我希望去年那個事件之後，你們跟教育部有一些糾正跟補救的措施，我也是很支持人權處的反歧視法，現在已經有一個草案了，我不知道原民會有沒有進行相關的討論，把你們的需求放進去呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，每次開會都有邀我們，我們也把我們的需求都納在他們的相關法案裡面。"],["黃委員捷：好，其實監察院之前有做過一個消弭原住民社會歧視之法律策略研究案，裡面有提到像是加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等國的反歧視規定，都有明確的規定某一些言論、種族歧視的言論必須要禁止，我知道原民會也都有加入這些討論，我不知道你們有沒有把你們的意見明確的放進去？有的話我也希望到時候這個反歧視法的草案裡面有明確的把原民會所有相關的，不管是要如何禁止或是任何行為、言論都有明確納入你們的意見。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，有，這部分我們都會站在原住民族的立場，將我們的相關意見提供給他們。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。謝謝主席，因為我今天聲音不舒服，所以有幫我主持一下，我的聲音沒有辦法大聲。"],["主席：請在場的委員小聲一點好不好，我們尊重一下質詢委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝，不好意思，因為我聲音沒有辦法很大聲。我希望可以趕快看到反歧視法的立法，原住民族的意見、原民會的意見一定要納入好嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，也謝謝鍾副主委。","我們現在來處理一下臨時提案，總共5案，請宣讀。","一、","內政部警政署為因應司法院釋字第803號解釋，於112年1月預告「原住民漁民自製獵槍魚槍許可及管理辦法草案」，但因內容不符實際操作可行性，原住民族群、相關業界均存疑慮，在此同時，行政機關因循反覆毫無修正進度，對於原住民族的狩獵權、文化權構成嚴重實質侵害。","請原住民族委員會徐欣瑩積極向行政院、內政部、國防部具體表達原住民族意見；並請內政部正視本案對於原住民族文化的意義與價值，親自督導並廣納原住民族民眾意見，儘速完成修正辦法內容與進度，勿使固步自封因循廢事，於下會期開議前向本院內政委員會提出規劃方案與進度書面報告。是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　黃建賓","二、","原住民族委員會於107年起研提原文會及原語會工作地點遷移興建永久會址計畫，經行政院於109年核定。此計畫涉及員工工作地點將從台北市重陽路及羅斯福路調動至桃園市大園區領航北路四段，雇主（原文會及原語會）應遵守勞動基準法第10之1條第4款及第5款規定：「調動工作地點過遠，雇主應予以必要之協助。」、「考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益。」。","查原住民族委員會提報前述興建永久會址計畫時，未考量前述勞動基準法規定，為保障原文會及原語會員工權益，原住民族委員會應儘速規劃提供員工交通補助、遷居補助、托育補助及可租可售之合宜住宅等，俾符合勞動基準法前述規定。","提案人：高金素梅　麥玉珍　　黃建賓　　許宇甄　　","鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　","三、","查行政院109年1月12日核定之「財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會暨財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會永久會址興建計畫」經費計17億，係依107年起研擬之「財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會暨財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會中長程計畫」，自107年迄今已6年以上，各類營建工程成本受到國際原物料價格上漲、缺工、缺料，以及市場供需影響，價格大幅上漲，造成整個營建成本增加；另外有關專業設備部分，107年研擬計畫時有無檢視設備已超過年限或與現今媒體製播設備規格不符需求，原文會應詳為盤點及檢視亟需增加之專業設備經費。且107年研擬計畫時，財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會尚未成立（108年底成立）原語會亦應詳為盤點檢視應增列之設備實際需求；另前述17億之計畫經費，尚未包含依勞動基準法規定必須編列有關員工勞動權益相關費用。","綜上所述，原計畫編列17億預算明顯不足以支應整體經費需求，原住民族委員會應依原文會及原語會實際需求儘速修正「財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會暨財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會永久會址興建計畫」，寬列前述所需經費。","提案人：高金素梅　麥玉珍　　黃建賓　　許宇甄　　","鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　","四、","經查同屬性之公共媒體台語台、客家台及原民台113年度預算分別為8億元、6億元及4.62億元，三者間預算經費不僅明顯有重大落差，且原民台預算支應項目尚包括藝術文化業務及補助業務，致原民台節目製播年度相關費用少於4億元；此外，行政院專案計畫補助財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會經營廣播電台之年度經費每年約1.3億元（含轉播站台及資安系統建置），也與同屬性公共廣播之客家公共傳播基金會113年度預算2.4億元差距1.1億元，依此數據顯示了客家與原住民族之廣播電視媒體年度預算差距高達3億元以上；另為符合媒體發展趨勢需求，亦應編列預算推動建置及經營數位媒體。","基於上述，原住民族委員會應函報行政院寬列財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會相關預算及足額人力資源且不得低於同屬性公共媒體年度預算經費規模，俾落實憲法及原住民族基本法保障原住民族文化之傳承推廣及傳播服務。","提案人：高金素梅　麥玉珍　　黃建賓　　許宇甄　　","鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　","五、","查113年軍公教員工待遇調整經行政院核定自113年1月1日起調薪4%，適用對象為包括軍職人員、公教人員、技工工友及約聘僱人員及教研人員學術研究加給（專業加給）調整15%；其次，勞工「基本工資審議委員會」依消費者物價指數CPI「103年至112年年增幅高達111%」並衡酌勞動情勢與經濟發展情況，進行基本工資調整審議，自105年迄今，已連續8年調漲基本工資，月薪總調漲37.3%、時薪總調漲52.2%；另參照各公共媒體薪資比較來看，原民台員工平均薪資分別少於公視2萬元及少於客家台1萬元，其中原住民族廣播電台與中央廣播電台平均薪資落差逾2.5萬元；爰請原住民族委員會函報行政院應按同工同酬原則參照各公共媒體薪資水準，於明（114）年度起增列額度外人事預算支應調整財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會員工薪資。有關財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會員工薪資，亦請原住民族委員會檢視比照相關機構辦理。","提案人：高金素梅　麥玉珍　　黃建賓　　許宇甄　　","鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　"],["主席：好，現在看一下我們的臨時提案，徐欣瑩委員提的部分有一些文字的修正，現在正在影印，還沒有印過來，為了節省時間，我們待會再宣讀一下。","我們來看第二案，請問一下第二案，原民會有沒有意見？好，請問一下，你們的文字修正在哪裡？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：文字修正有提了嗎？"],["主席：我現在要處理，目前還沒看到。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：文字修正有提過了嗎？"],["主席：請問一下，文字修正在哪裡？給我們議事人員了嗎？喔！也在印。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，也在印。"],["主席：那第三案的部分，也給議事人員了？好，第一案、第二案、第三案、第五案都好了？好，一、二、三、五案的文字修正都OK了。現在就是第四案的部分，好，第四案我們再溝通一下，我們休息一下，用兩分鐘來溝通一下第四案。第四案就是希望原民臺的預算跟公共媒體臺語臺、客家臺，就他們的部分來做一些預算上的比較跟調整。好，請問一下，這部分是哪一個部會有意見？是原民會嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，照案通過。"],["主席：第四案照案通過嗎？對啊，我就說啊！就幫你們爭取到了，你們還有一些文字……","好，現在臨時提案第四案照案通過。","現在第一案、第二案、第三案、第五案有一些文字上的修正，正在影印過來，我們等一下，休息一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：第五案也照案通過，第四案、第五案都照案通過。"],["主席：第四案、第五案，照案通過。第五案是包括……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：薪資部分。"],["主席：薪資部分，希望能夠按照我們軍公教人員、技工工友，還有約聘僱人員及教研人員的加給調整15%，所以我們也希望原民會的員工同工同酬。","第四案、第五案我們照提案通過。","第一案、第二案、第三案，我們有一些文字修正，現在正在影印，是不是先把原稿拿來，我們在這個視頻上面給大家看一下文字修訂的部分，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：文字都很簡單，很簡單的修正……"],["主席：原稿在哪裡？我手上沒有，因為我們現場有非常多的委員在，所以我們還是趕快影印，但是下次我們希望原稿先給我們唸一下，如果大家、委員有意見的話，我們也好做修正。好，我們休息2分鐘，等一下影印本，謝謝。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時12分）"],["主席：現在我們請各位委員聽一下，你們手上可能陸續拿到資料，但是在陸續影印的同時，我先問一下臨時提案第一案第4行「行政機關因循反覆毫無修正」的「因循反覆毫無修正」這個部分的文字把它拿掉，所以是「行政機關進度緩慢」，用這樣的形容詞，就是改用「進度緩慢」，然後接「對於原住民族的狩獵權、文化權構成嚴重實質侵害」的「構成嚴重實質侵害」那幾個字也拿掉，改為「保障不足」，就是修正為「行政機關進度緩慢，對於原住民族的狩獵權、文化權保障不足，請原住民族委員會積極向行政院、內政部、國防部具體表達原住民族意見」，以上是相關文字的修正；接著是倒數第2行「固步自封」修正為「故步自封」，所以就是修正為「故步自封因循廢事，於下會期開議前向本院內政委員會提出規劃方案與進度書面報告」，這些文字修正的部分，請問一下提案的徐欣瑩委員沒有意見吧？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有意見。"],["主席：沒有意見，好，行政部門也沒意見，我們就按照文字修正的部分通過。","再來是臨時提案第二案，倒數第3行修正為「為保障原文會及原語會員工權益，原住民族委員會應協助兩基金會儘速規劃提供員工交通補助、遷居補助、托育補助及可租可售之合宜住宅等」這個部分做這樣的文字修正，請問一下對鄭天財委員的提案跟高金素梅委員的提案等，有沒有一些意見？這樣修正可以嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：文字就接受這個修正。"],["主席：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是很重要的就是請原民會還有兩個基金會要掌握編列預算的時間，因為明年就要搬遷，你今年就要編明年的預算了，所以現在就要好好的跟行政院還有主計總處溝通，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的補充，請兩會還有原民會麻煩一下，一定要在審預算之前把這些交給我們委員會，讓我們清楚知道。","臨時提案第三案，倒數第4行「明顯」修正為「若有」；「盡速」修正為「儘速」，就是修正為「綜上所述，原計畫編列17億預算若有不足以支應整體經費需求，原住民族委員會應依照原文會及原語會實際需求儘速修正『財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會暨財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會永久會址興建計畫』，寬列前述所需經費」。請問一下提案委員鄭天財委員，這樣子的文字修正OK嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：勉強接受了，因為實際上是不足的，還是一樣，就是請原民會趕快啟動。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們今天的臨時提案五案，整個修正文字的部分通過了，還有照案通過了，我們中午不休息，就繼續開會。","現在再請黃仁委員來做質詢。謝謝大家。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛大家都在關心說我們因為明年下半年原住民族語言傳播大樓就要啟用了那啟用之後其實原住民族的文化事業的基金會然後語言發展的基金會所有的工作同仁都要去到青埔那現在看起來是現在原文會、原語會兩個基金會工作同仁加起來大概有289位職員 對嗎"},{"start":29.45,"end":31.679,"text":"是 他們差不多 言文會270 言語會37人"},{"start":34.144,"end":57.992,"text":"對,所以加起來大概也是將近300位的同仁要到青浦草原的青浦的新辦公室那因為大家也有傳出說蠻多員工在擔心說搬遷後他們的居住或是交通或是子女教育的問題該怎麼辦那因為我有看到說2019年的時候其實原文會自己有做過內部的調查只有15%的員工願意搬遷是嗎?"},{"start":61.67,"end":84.884,"text":"剛剛的說明好像是15%不願意不過那是最初的調查那現在的狀況是如何呢現在應該我們9次的會議要一起過去是高比例啦高比例是多少我們預估大概八成的這個員工都是願意跟我一起奮鬥"},{"start":86.226,"end":110.733,"text":"那當然啦我也是希望說你們在這樣子搬遷的過程還是要保障所有員工的權益一定是要符合勞基法的並且協助他們在生活的起居上面有所有相關的都已經做好準備了所以我想要再次的督促說只要是在這個搬遷過程有員工有任何的需要你們一定都要盡全力來協助好嗎是是是"},{"start":112.552,"end":141.44,"text":"這其實就是這一次的這個搬遷的爭議大家最關心的那因為其實之前也有看到說桃園有承諾說這兩個基金會員工的搬遷會用社會住宅來做專案的處理不知道你們有跟桃園市有做任何的接洽嗎有,我們跟桃園市政府總共開了三次的會議那就有關的安排後續正在進行事業也在協助我們"},{"start":142.492,"end":162.225,"text":"所以現在他們說這個社會住宅是有在做的嗎是是是那所以在明年下半年之前這個社會住宅是絕對可以可行的是是讓所有的員工都可以入住是好那這個就是我希望要你們要做出保證的好那再來我們請原民會副主委"},{"start":164.006,"end":190.598,"text":"我想要請教這個反歧視法的部分因為其實行政院的人權處在5月2號的時候已經公告一個反歧視法的草案了那我也非常的支持因為我覺得這個反歧視法現在是散落在所有的法律裡面但是很需要有一部統合的法律那因為其實這個原住民族的歧視案例之前也有看到很多尤其是去年有幾個在學校裡面發生的我看到其實蠻於心不忍的覺得說"},{"start":191.378,"end":219.471,"text":"從學校的教育就應該要從學校開始做起包括之前有一個中一中的園遊會他們的文宣發生過歧視的案例然後包括我的母校其實在臺大的學生自治選舉裡面也都出現過非常多嘲笑的案例我看了覺得蠻難過的當時我甚至出來發聲說就算是學校裡面的選舉也都不應該出現這樣子歧視的言論那我想知道的是現在因為其實去年五月的時候內政委員會"},{"start":220.111,"end":242.868,"text":"去年的內政委員會有針對這些歧視性的言論有排過一個專報然後那時候那個一將主委有說要跟教育部開會然後盤點過去的歧視的案件然後針對落實這些多元的文化的教育要進行相關的討論那不知道說去年開會之後我們到現在做的相關的整理是什麼"},{"start":243.348,"end":267.646,"text":"有 跟委員報告 這個部分我們除了跟教育部在教政會就這個部分拿出來討論希望通令各學校針對請底下的溝通小聲一點好不好尊重一下我們諮詢的委員我們也主辦一些有關原住民的相關書籍或介紹能夠發送到各學校也能夠變成是他們的教育教材然後做參考希望能夠多認識原住民這個文化的部分"},{"start":268.937,"end":291.389,"text":"因為我是希望說去年那個事件之後你們跟教育部有一些糾正跟補作的措施那我也是很支持說現在人權處的這個反歧視法現在已經有一個草案了那我不知道說原民會有沒有進行相關的討論把你們的需求放進去呢每次開會都有邀我們我們也把我們的需求都納在他們的相關法案裡面"},{"start":292.749,"end":309.806,"text":"因為其實監察院之前有做過一個消明原住民社會歧視的法律策略的研究案那裡面其實都有提到說像是加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等國的反歧視的規定都有明確的規定某一些言論的種族歧視的言論必須要禁止"},{"start":310.467,"end":336.329,"text":"那我知道說我們原民會也都有在加入這些討論所以我不知道說你們有沒有把你們的意見明確的放進去有的話我也希望說到時候這個反歧視法的草案裡面是有明確的把我們原民會所有相關的不管是要如何禁止或是任何行為言論你們都有明確的納入你們的意見的是有這個部分我們都會站在原住民族的立場將我們的相關意見提供給他們"},{"start":336.943,"end":360.911,"text":"好 謝謝不好意思 謝謝主席因為我今天聲音不舒服所以有幫我主持一下我的聲音沒有辦法大聲我們請在場的委員小聲一點好不好我們尊重一下質詢委員謝謝不好意思因為我的聲音沒有辦法很大聲那這部分我就希望我們可以趕快看到反歧視法的立法然後原住民族的意見我們原民會的意見一定一定要納入好嗎是 好 謝謝是 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝環節委員的質詢也謝謝中副主委好"}]}},{"id":"152437","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173413e3fea78d251211a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d45e06997de6ec50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:50:02 - 11:00:44","影片長度":"00:10:42","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":642,"end_time":"2024-05-13T11:00:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:50:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時50分）主席好，有請國安局副局長。"],["主席：請國安局副局長。"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝主席。委員早。"],["林委員憶君：副局長早。歐洲在德國前總理梅克爾卸任之後，現在的法國總統馬克宏對於主導歐洲秩序比德國現任的總理蕭茲更加積極，馬克宏總統為了不讓俄羅斯在俄烏戰爭獲勝，他認為應該要保持跟中國的關係，因為俄羅斯已經逐漸適應西方所施加的經濟制裁，中國就作為俄羅斯的戰略夥伴。我想請問一下副局長，根據你掌握的資訊，法國未來如果想要說服中國減少對俄羅斯的支持，總是需要哪些籌碼交換嘛，對吧？如果不涉及機密，方便在這邊簡短說明嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：法國跟中國的經貿關係還是很密切，中國在這方面會不會給予法國一些優惠或是合作的機會，那這些……"],["林委員憶君：沒關係，如果是有一點點不太可以說明的話，不然到時候書面送到辦公室也可以。"],["徐副局長錫祥：好，可以，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：下一個問題，因為今天專案的報告主題是會如何影響臺灣的國家安全，現在我國有6艘康定級的巡防艦，就是大家平常聽到的法國拉法葉軍艦正在陸續進行性能的提升，而這個升級案就是跟法國合作的，我們都知道，當年臺灣為了購買這批拉法葉軍艦進來，非常地不容易，因為涉及到臺灣、法國、中國三國高層的世紀國際新聞，當年中國知道臺法的軍艦交易之後，就開始對法國施予很大的政治壓力，導致這6艘軍艦差一點就買不了，最後政治的妥協是船進來，但是上面都沒有任何的武裝，甚至拉法葉軍艦本身就有很多性能也都被法國洩漏給中共了，當然現在時空背景可能有所不同，但很難不讓人聯想到類似的情況會不會再次發生。請問副局長，你認為中國這次利用這種領導人出訪，影響我國康定級升級案的機會有多大？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們不排除中共還是會利用各種機會來干擾歐洲國家友臺行動跟臺法、臺歐的關係。不過，據我們的瞭解，這個性能提升案仍然持續在推動，但我們還是要非常小心中共會利用機會來干擾我們之間的關係。"],["林委員憶君：好，我想提醒一下副局長，因為你們是研究情報的，其實你們都知道法國主要是軍工企業，跟政府部門其實都有很深的連結，表示很容易就受到政府的決策影響，我國這6艘康定級的軍艦升級案，總預算高達臺幣432億，再加上中國頻以機艦擾臺，為了考驗我國國軍的後勤能力，113年2月16號國防部決標的公告裡面，我們已經跟法國簽署完成艦艇戰系載台零附件，總金額有24億元，等於6艘康定級的軍艦升級案，總金額就已經超過臺幣456億元，目標就是為了有效維持海軍的拉法葉艦戰力，以應對中國的威脅。但也別忘了康定級是我國海軍非常重要的反潛戰力，所以還是請國安局要持續關注，千萬不要讓外力干擾到國防艦艇升級案的成果，好嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是。"],["林委員憶君：除了康定級的軍艦外，我們還有幻象2000的戰鬥機，是不是也是跟法國買的呢？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是。"],["林委員憶君：其實之前有一段很長的時間，拉法葉的軍艦案導致臺法的關係不是很好，所以後來幻象戰機妥善率其實也不是很好，所以最近臺法關係改善之後，有軍事的專家指出，其實我們從空軍半年來四波的採購動作來看，其中幾乎都是跟法國採購相關維修零附件，所以這些與法國的軍事交流也請國安局一定要特別地注意，要密切地注意臺灣會不會被當作法國跟中國交易的棋子，讓臺灣國家安全被影響到？這可能要特別的注意，可以嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：可以。"],["林委員憶君：下一個問題，下個禮拜520就是新任總統即將交接的重要日子，同時也是兩岸關係的重要節點，本席看一下國內研究兩岸關係的學者論點，他們普遍認為，從3月中共兩會結束到520總統就職的這段期間，是觀察中共對臺灣下一任總統釋放政治訊息的重要時間，但是這段時間兩岸的互動實在太令人擔心了，自從2月份金門漁船翻船事件到現在，兩岸都沒有達成共識，然後本席也發現，中國是以加強海上執法巡查來當藉口，開始逼近金門、馬祖的禁限水域，到現在頻率跟船隻都是一直在上升，甚至到上個禮拜還出現了中國的公務船跟海警船編隊直接闖入我國的金門禁限水域。本席認為北京是在利用這個機會跟我們打法律戰，想要擴大管轄權，想請教副局長，本席擔心的是，如果我們沒有辦法有效地反制，這樣中國船隻在金門、馬祖禁限水域進出成為常態，這樣的量變會不會累積變成我們失去有效管轄權的質變呢？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們國軍及海巡署的弟兄都非常嚴正的在執法，我們也在做防禦的動作，我想大家都沒有鬆懈，我們也都是很認真的在執法，中共從來沒有放棄以武力犯臺的選項，也不斷的用軍事跟灰色地帶來施壓，我們一定會一直蒐集共軍這些異常的動態來機先應處。"],["林委員憶君：其實這個怕的是會變成我們跟對岸的長期對抗，但是看來實在是很難讓國人樂觀的看待中國對臺的態度，希望你們還是要隨時的監測，不要讓國人對兩岸之間的關係非常的害怕及憂心。"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們會審慎的面對。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝副局長。"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：有請外交次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：委員早。"],["林委員憶君：次長早。臺灣目前所屬的外部環境似乎是比以前更加嚴峻，次長認為呢？"],["田次長中光：從整個地緣政治來看，我們確實是受到很強大的壓力，但是從內部來看，其實我們團結的力量也相對的大，如果從國際間，尤其在東歐、歐盟方面，他們關切臺灣的力道跟提到臺海安全穩定的次數等等，我覺得已經超過以往非常多，就是說以臺灣整個價值來講，已經受到全世界的關注。"],["林委員憶君：好，其實最主要的影響應該是臺灣國家安全，應該是美中臺三角的關係，短期上有美國大選因素，長期上美中激烈戰略競爭的態勢已經非常的明確，所以其實對臺灣而言是沒有最嚴峻只有更嚴峻的外部環境。在那麼嚴峻的情況下，請問次長，你認為臺灣是不是要有一個具有豐富外交實務經驗的人來擔任外交部長、領導外交部呢？像本席就覺得田次長你那麼優秀，又那麼資深，其實你蠻適合當外交部長的，你是不是有這個意願呢？"],["田次長中光：我對現在扮演的角色我很滿意，但是我覺得我能力還不夠擔當大任，我希望能夠就我所學來襄助新的外交部長，這是我的想法。"],["林委員憶君：因為現在的外交部長，現在外界就有很多傳言說是民進黨派系平衡的結果，我們現在來檢視林佳龍適不適合擔任外交部長的職位。我這邊整理出來從2000年到現在歷屆外交部長上任前相關的涉外工作經驗，由此我們可以發現，其實近年來的外交部長幾乎都是職業外交官，還有相關外交專業的、資深的學者出身，但問題是林佳龍在接任外交部長前，涉外事務經驗就很少，甚至沒有駐外的經驗，而且勉強說，涉外事務的經驗或許就只有擔任過外交部的無任所大使。請問你會不會擔心在國際環境那麼險竣的情況下，把外交部交給一個涉外經驗那麼少的繼任者呢？次長可以說出你心中的真心話嗎？"],["田次長中光：林部長做過臺中市市長，據我瞭解，他在臺中市做市長時就推動過很多城市外交，成果也非常之好，所以我認為他對外交有他獨特的想法跟作法，我高度讚賞。"],["林委員憶君：最後我還是希望外交部能夠在520交接時，趕快協助林佳龍無縫接軌、學習適應，而且時間越短越好，因為敵人是不等人的，甚至是無孔不入的。希望你們能夠這樣去協助他，可以嗎？"],["田次長中光：會，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.32596875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.020968750000002,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.20846875,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.618468750000005,"end":53.119718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.000343750000006,"end":69.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.01159375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.83784375,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.57596875,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.95534375000001,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.08159375000001,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.05971875,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.04221875,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.23471875,"end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接闖入我國的金門淨線水域那北溪認為北京是在利用這個機會跟我們打法律戰想要擴大管轄權那想請教副局長北溪擔心的是如果我們沒有辦法有效的反制這樣中國船隻在金門馬祖淨線水域進出成為常態那這樣的量變會不會累積變成我們失去有效管轄權的質變呢"},{"start":376.087,"end":400.172,"text":"我想我們國軍及海巡的海巡署我們的弟兄都是非常的嚴正的在執法我們也在做防禦的一個動作我想大家都沒有鬆懈我們也都是很認真的在執法我們中共從來沒有放棄以武力犯台的這個選項"},{"start":401.272,"end":409.876,"text":"那也不斷地用軍事跟灰色地帶來施壓我們一定會一起收集共軍的這些異常的動態來機先應處"},{"start":413.308,"end":415.39,"text":"我們會審慎的面對謝謝副局長那有請那個次長外交次長謝謝請田次長午安早"},{"start":442.759,"end":471.618,"text":"市長早那台灣目前所屬的外部環境似乎是比以前更加嚴峻那市長認為呢確實從整個地緣政治來看我們確實是受到很強大的壓力但是從內部來看其實我們團結的力量也相對的大那麼如果說從國際間尤其在東歐歐盟方面他們關切台灣的力道"},{"start":472.478,"end":485.089,"text":"跟提到臺海安全穩定的次數等等我覺得已經超過以往非常多就是說臺灣整個的價值來講已經受到全世界的關注"},{"start":486.66,"end":505.767,"text":"其實最主要的影響應該是台灣國家安全應該是美中台三角的關係短期上由美國大選因素長期上美中激烈戰略競爭的態勢已經非常的明確了所以其實對台灣而言是沒有最嚴峻只有更嚴峻的外部環境在那麼嚴峻的情況下那請問"},{"start":507.327,"end":512.631,"text":"請問一下次長你認為臺灣是不是要有一個具有豐富外交實務經驗的人來擔任外交部長呢?來領導外交部呢?像本席就覺得田次長你那麼優秀又那麼資深其實你蠻適合當外交部長的你是不是有這個意願呢?"},{"start":528.22,"end":542.314,"text":"我覺得我現在扮演的角色我很滿意但是我覺得能力還不夠擔當大任我希望能夠在我所學能夠相助新的外交部長這是我的想法"},{"start":543.097,"end":545.158,"text":"因為現在的外交部長現在外界就很多傳言民進黨派系的平衡的結果像我覺得我們現在來看一下檢視林佳龍是不是合擔任外交部長的職位然後我現在這邊整理出來從2000年到現在歷屆的外交部長上任前相關的社外工作經驗我們可以發現"},{"start":565.183,"end":569.369,"text":"其實近年來的外交部長幾乎都是職業外交官還有相關外交專業的資深的學者出身但問題是林教長在接任外交部長前涉外事務經驗就很少甚至沒有駐外的經驗而且勉強說涉外"},{"start":581.707,"end":597.393,"text":"事務的經驗或許就是只有擔任過外交部的無任所大使那請問一下次長請問你會不會擔心國際環境那麼險峻情況下把外交部交給一個涉外經驗那麼少的繼任者呢請次長你可以說出你的心中的真心話嗎"},{"start":598.755,"end":617.002,"text":"我們林部長做過台中市的市長我了解在台中市做市長的時候就推動過很多城市外交成果也非常之好所以我認為他對外交有他獨特的一個想法跟做法我是高度的讚賞"},{"start":618.749,"end":636.169,"text":"好那最後我還是希望外交部能夠在520交接的時候趕快協助林佳龍然後無縫接軌的學習適應的時間因為現在還是時間越短越好因為我們敵人是不等人的啦甚至無孔不入希望能夠這樣去協助他可以嗎?謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152436","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152436","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173481cf94b5405bad6a076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d2c430e39f0c2bc0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:52:15 - 10:57:30","影片長度":"00:05:15","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":315,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:57:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:52:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時52分）謝謝。我請原文會董事長、原語會董事長及勞動部勞動關係司副司長。"],["主席：好，我們請瑪拉歐斯董事長、馬耀．谷木董事長以及黃副司長，謝謝！"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝，我用4分鐘就好了。感謝召委今天排入搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事項，搬遷之後有一些勞工權益的部分，還有未來新媒體發展趨勢的專案報告。當然，在2016年的時候，前瞻基礎建設經費裡面有17億要準備來桃園，被桃園爭取到桃園青埔的原住民族語言傳播大樓和文創園區共構的這個基地，原本表定今年會好，現在應該是明年所有的員工就要進駐。同時，上個禮拜陳建仁院長還特別到高雄，考察原住民族博物館的進度，原住民族博物館決定選址在高雄，從2017年選址之後，經過2019年可行性評估，到2021年環評，到2022年公布施行計畫，當天包含陳建仁院長以及當時爭取的高雄市長陳菊，也是現在的院長都有到場，希望原民博物館趕快興建。","其實我們在這裡面看到臺灣原本就有很多原住民的文化，透過這些傳播可以讓國際、觀光或是原住民權益有更多的保障和發揮，我們也很期待。除了支持這個政策之外，我在內政委員會也看到桃園市政府跟高雄市政府在這一方面所做的努力。桃園市政府把發展中的青埔站，當初決定要把這個大樓放在青埔是2018年，到現在6年期間青埔的發展是非常可怕的。讓我們的原住民族語言傳播大樓落腳在青埔，對目前在大臺北地區工作的人來講，可能會感受到不方便，我們也支持召委所安排的這個議程，在支持勞動權益方面，除了給予適度的輔導之外，我們也看到桃園市政府的厲害和遠見。為什麼桃園市的人口是六都裡面最年輕化的，除了在雙北工作的人可能會外溢通勤到桃園居住之外，還有這一招──把我們的原民傳播大樓爭取到那裡去，我也相信除了很多員工會有調適的問題之外，最重要的就是桃園會爭取到這些可能有能力遷徙的員工到桃園居住。","當然，我講了桃園之後，就要講未來高雄的原民博物館，我們期待也希望這些相關的從業人員，未來也可以樂居在高雄。請問兩位董事長，你們準備好要通勤到桃園，還是要在桃園居住呢？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：謝謝委員，剛剛委員講的，因為我本身的另一半是桃園人，所以我會在桃園定居。"],["李委員柏毅：恭喜你可以回桃園定居。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：這是第一個，因為我就在桃園復興，我們大部分的同仁會建議就地，這樣整個計畫在脈絡上會比較好，這是我們的大方向。"],["李委員柏毅：瑪拉歐斯呢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，因為我住蘭嶼，買不起臺灣的房子，所以我是租的，我從臺北再過去租。"],["李委員柏毅：你更應該、更要為原住民所有在這裡工作的人去思考，怎麼樣可以讓他們在桃園定居，或是怎麼樣可以在公務領域上工作的時候解決他們住的問題。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是的，這個很重要，謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢，謝謝兩位董事長。","繼續請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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徙的員工可以到桃園去居住當然我講這些桃園之後我就是要講未來的高雄的原民博物館我們也期待我們也希望相關的這些從業的人員未來也可以樂居在高雄來請問兩位董事長你們準備好要通勤到桃園還是要在桃園居住呢來"},{"start":265.03,"end":282.996,"text":"謝謝委員那跟委員講我本身因為是另一半是桃園人所以我會在桃園定居那恭喜你啊可以回桃園定居這是我的第一個啦因為我就在桃園復興那我們大部分的同仁會建立就地那讓整個計劃整個的脈絡上會比較好這是我們的大方向好馬拉姆"},{"start":284.404,"end":309.141,"text":"報告委員因為我住蘭嶼買不起臺灣的房子所以我是租的我從臺北再去租更應該更要為我們原住民所有的我們的我們的從業我們在這裡工作的人去思考怎麼樣可以讓他們在桃園定居或者是怎麼樣可以在這個公共領域上工作的時候來來有解決他們住的問題是的這個很重要謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":312.645,"end":313.047,"text":"謝謝博弈委員的資訊謝謝兩位董事長 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10:56:51","影片長度":"00:13:01","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":781,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:56:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:43:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時43分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：是，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長，這應該是520之前我們最後一次見面。"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，不管怎麼樣，其實還是要說一下關於TVBS的民調，其實蔡總統的執政滿意度還是高達42%，我想論文應該也只有很少數人還想要再知道、再追問的部分。","今天我們針對所謂「優華語計畫」的部分，臺灣優華語計畫主要還是以歐美紐澳這樣子的計畫為主，當初我們知道中國在各個不同的國家設立很多孔子學院，但是也有很多的西方國家或者很多國家也意識到這個孔子學院可能會有滲透的一些問題，所以這些孔子學院也陸陸續續地要退場，當然這也是很好向國際推展我們優華語計畫的timing。","我們也看到在優華語計畫當中，如我剛剛所說的，我們以歐美跟紐澳為主，在整個國家的分布中，我們可以看到包含美國有56所、英國有6所、法國有1所、捷克有1所、波蘭還有1所，另外在澳洲有2所、紐西蘭有1所，總共是這樣子的配置。","我發現我們一直不斷地在強調現在有很多的包含貿易以及一些交流，甚至在一些半導體的一些……想要讓很多外國學生也來到臺灣，或者是我們也要出去，但是在新南向政策，新南向的亞洲國家這個地方是掛零，這個部分是不是部長這邊也有一些說法？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，委員今天提出來的這些內容裡面，其實我們國際招生的相關措施，包含一般性大學招收國際生……"],["郭委員昱晴：那個是招生。"],["潘部長文忠：對，但是像優華語計畫……"],["郭委員昱晴：我講的是優華語計畫。"],["潘部長文忠：對，這幾個是相輔相成，因為當時華語教育在推動的過程，後來我們做了一些改變，希望能夠更深化，所以才採取校對校、就是U to U這種模式，這個確實在美國這方面因為跟大學原來的互動基礎比較多，但是在華語教育的推動，尤其新南向國家，如果委員有留意到，我們在一些新南向國家這些相關的方案裡面，採取兩個非常重要的、對華語文的學習，如果這個學校開的是全英文課程，也會要求這些新南向國家的學生在畢業必須達到華文A2的等級，如果它開的是華語文的課程，他入學後就是用華語來學習，要在他一年級的第二學期就要達到A2的等級，這個部分也是……"],["郭委員昱晴：這個是來到臺灣的。"],["潘部長文忠：對，所以……"],["郭委員昱晴：但我講的是我們要去優華語的外……就是我們要派我們這邊的華語老師到亞洲的部分，這邊是掛零。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員再補充報告，不好意思，可能報告沒有寫得那麼完整，像現在新型專班，我們會到這些當地國設相關的基地，那個名稱或許有不同，像攬才基地裡面有一項很重要的任務，就是推廣華語教育，如果這些學生有意要過來，他也會在這個基地裡面先行做這些先修的華文，所以未來在新南向國家應該會有10個基地，會再設10個基地。"],["郭委員昱晴：OK。"],["潘部長文忠：現在目前已經設了3個，所以我剛才為什麼用相輔相成去說明國際招生跟華語文推動……"],["郭委員昱晴：我知道我們國際招生其實現在有很多的外籍學校……"],["潘部長文忠：對，這兩個其實真的要相輔相成……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們來看一下剛剛我們提到的，合作的學校有這麼多，但是我發現一個比較有趣的問題是在澳洲跟紐西蘭，我們是有合作的學校，但是卻沒有老師，這個部分是──因為我們每年還是編了大概1.41億的預算在應用華語教學跟交流的部分，有合作的學校，但是它沒有華語的老師，這個部分怎麼解釋？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，剛才提到國內這21所對應合作的68所，這裡面他們會從校際彼此之間的需求來去訂定，有些它就希望我們有華語教師到它當地的學校裡面來協助做華語教育，委員提到澳大利亞跟紐西蘭這部分，目前對方學校沒有跟我們合作學校提出，如果他們在發展過程有需要，我們都會支援。"],["郭委員昱晴：但我們還是有撥經費給他們嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，它合作的不是只有單一這個項目啦！"],["郭委員昱晴：還有其他的項目，只是在華語這一部分是零？"],["潘部長文忠：對，他們甚至……我跟委員報告，其實學校未來在合作時，華語教育是一個很好的橋梁……"],["郭委員昱晴：是我們的華語師資不足，沒有辦法……"],["潘部長文忠：不會，因為這部分只要對方學校有需求……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以他們現在沒有這方面的需求？"],["潘部長文忠：對，這兩所學校就同仁跟我提到的是在合作裡面，他們並沒有提出華語師資，如果他們在推廣、推動的過程有需要，就會跟我們再提出來。"],["郭委員昱晴：瞭解，好。我想優華語的部分，我們也看到這些報告可能還必須要有一些更精進的地方……"],["潘部長文忠：這個還要持續滾動再……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為就像剛剛所說的，如果新南向的一些國家，可能還會有10個不同的據點，如果有最新的報告，再提供給我們。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來，我想要請教一下部長的部分就是，現在我們其實有很多的私校開始慢慢地退場了，這還是2023年的新聞，臺灣確定有6所的私校，大學的部分，是確定要停招；13所的私校，可能在今年也要熄燈了。我想其實在私校退場的這個部分，不是只有私立大學啦！另外還包含所謂的像是高中職的部分，職校、技職學校也是一樣的道理，當然一方面是因為少子化，那二方面其實也是因為相對應所謂學校經費的部分，它沒有辦法用更好的經費去請到更好的師資，也有可能變成這樣。雖然我們基本學雜費的部分調幅有百分之零點六一，但某一個私校的大學的校長說，這百分之零點六一好像吃兩個漢堡都沒了，所以其實這個部分……因為有可能會讓很多的教育資源開始變成所謂的弱化，我們講教育資源會變成所謂的M型化，辦得好的私校或者是有口碑的一些私校，還是一堆家長想要把孩子送進去；但是相對來講，又有一堆的私校其實就因為招不到學生，也面臨要退場，包含今年在內湖的文德女中、方濟中學，其實真的都要退場了，我個人是覺得非常地遺憾啦！目前這個部分，教育部跟我們的新任部長，有沒有什麼樣的解方來解決這樣的問題？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，這幾年對於私校確實學生的這部分，為了減輕他們的學貸負擔，有推出拉近學費差距的補助，這個是對學生，包含就學貸款延長等等的措施。對學校的部分，像最近這幾年因為政府也有不斷地調薪，所以我也跟委員報告，我們針對這部分也補助私校七成，因為這個都是學校實質人事費的一些負擔，包含水電費用，像之前調整的這部分，確實教育部也跟行政院報告負擔很重，也謝謝行政院、經濟部、台電這邊支持，讓學校是維持沒有再調漲，所以變成在政府的資源上儘量地來體恤跟協助。","至於學費的調整，這幾年還是有逐步地把調整的指數來做調升，也反映物價，當然我們也比較希望學校在學費調整的政策上，還是有一個學校討論溝通的機制，所以這個方向也許幅度並不如想像中那麼大，因為也相對是學生負擔的問題，所以會比較衡平地來做考量，對私校的獎補助也持續在進行當中。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想這個部分就是私校退場，接著下來要接手的還有學生安置的一些問題，都是非常大的問題，可能也要再跟地方政府教育局研議，更緊密的連結啦！"],["潘部長文忠：好，這部分我們會很審慎地來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，因為重要的還是不能影響到學生的受教權，這是首要的條件。"],["潘部長文忠：這一定是我們最大的原則，對老師離退的權益、學生其他就學的安置，這個是在處理退場裡面最重要的兩件事情。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想這是一個非常大的問題，因為每天我們都接收到這樣的新聞，就是哪一個學校又要停辦、哪一個學校又要停招了、哪一個學校又要退場了，其實對於很多人來講，那個也許是他們的母校，是有一點遺憾的，所以我想這是一個大方向我們要再精進的部分。","最後一點點時間，4月10號其實針對所謂的剴剴案、兒福聯盟，教育部是主管機關，我做了一個臨時提案，當時其實教育部也特別提到將在一個月之內，向我們教育文化委員會來提出一個報告。到目前為止，今天已經是5月超過10號了，但我都還沒有收到耶！這個部分教育部大概什麼時候可以給我們一個答復？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個當時提案的時候，我也在會場，我有跟委員報告了，也謝謝委員，就是一個月這個過程一定會去啟動，處理有關未來相關業務歸屬的……"],["郭委員昱晴：今天下午我們就會開會……"],["潘部長文忠：對，這是一個源頭。"],["郭委員昱晴：我要在這邊再說明一次，當然我們主管機關教育部是針對財團法人法，也就是說他們在公告所謂的捐款人，也依據所謂的財團法人法，但是我們看到111年度跟110年度整個所有的兒福聯盟的總收入跟總支出，這個部分其實也是歸教育部這邊要來督導的、要來監察的，我們發現其實它有兩種捐款模式的運用，一個是用專案勸募條例的部分，這個是公開的資料，大家都查得到，但是在這個年度當中，他們只有1筆是公開勸募，是兩千七百多萬；另外其他的運用全部都是民眾的捐款。那時候其實我提問教育部好多次了，包含他們在109年買了內湖的這塊地，不動產的部分，那個時候教育部也多次回答我，那是用他們剩餘的金額，並不是民眾的捐款，但是我們在這一張主要來源捐贈的部分，看到它所收到所有收入的金額，其實是來自於民眾的捐款，高達了四億九千多萬，這個部分我不知道教育部在這邊有沒有一個解釋啊？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告……"],["郭委員昱晴：它還是用到我們民眾的捐款去買它的不動產。"],["潘部長文忠：之前我們跟衛福部去做專案的查核，當時也邀請幾位會計師一起去進行……因為這個收支到底合不合相關的會計規範、相關的法規，我想這個有詳細的查核報告，是不是我再請司裡頭把查核的情形讓委員瞭解，好不好？"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["潘部長文忠：因為那真的是專業，由專業的人員代表政府去查核，我覺得是必要的。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想一個月的時間又拖過一個月了……"],["潘部長文忠：有，會持續再……"],["郭委員昱晴：另外就是它應該要怎麼樣改隸屬的部分，其實今天下午我們也會針對這個部分來做討論，再次謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.492843750000002,"end":20.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.082843750000002,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.922218750000003,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.304718750000003,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.14409375,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.565343750000004,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.02096875,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.159093750000004,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.34846875,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":50.369093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.554718750000006,"end":57.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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有請潘部長是 部長"},{"start":13.92,"end":29.685,"text":"委員好部長這應該是520之前我們的最後一次見面是是謝謝委員不管怎麼樣其實還是要說一下關於TVBS的民調其實蔡總統的執政滿意度還是高達42%我想這個論文應該也是只有很少數人還想要再知道再追問的這個部分"},{"start":37.908,"end":63.809,"text":"今天其實我們針對所謂的這個優華語計畫的一個部分我想這個臺灣優華語的一個計畫主要還是以歐美紐澳這樣子的一個計畫為主那當初其實我們知道在中國他們在各個不同的國家設立很多所謂的孔子學院但是也有很多的西方國家或者很多的國家也意識到這個孔子學院可能會有所謂的滲透的一些問題"},{"start":64.649,"end":64.669,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":94.532,"end":95.073,"text":"新南向的政策"},{"start":125.293,"end":138.209,"text":"在今天跟委員提出來的這些內容裡面其實我們國際招生的相關措施 包含一般性大學的招收國際生那不是招生 對對 但像優華語計畫 我說這幾個是相輔相成"},{"start":142.734,"end":168.206,"text":"因為當時華語教育在推動的過程後來我們做了一些改變希望能夠更深化所以才採取校對校就是U2U的這種模式所以這個確實在美國這方面因為跟大學原來的互動基礎比較多但是在華語教育的推動尤其新南向國家如果我有留意到我們在一些新南向國家這些相關的方案裡面採取兩個非常重要的"},{"start":171.047,"end":171.147,"text":"這是來到臺灣嗎?"},{"start":198.473,"end":199.454,"text":"我們要派我們這邊的華語的老師是到所謂的亞洲的部分這邊是掛零啦"},{"start":213.53,"end":213.75,"text":"這個部門可能要再寫清楚"},{"start":241.254,"end":241.374,"text":"主席"},{"start":256.84,"end":256.88,"text":"〔記者問答〕"},{"start":278.991,"end":282.752,"text":"國內21所對應合作的68所他們會去從校際彼此之間的需求來去訂定有些他就希望我們有華語教師到他當地的"},{"start":306.141,"end":306.321,"text":"但我們還是有撥經費給他們嗎?"},{"start":325.999,"end":327.779,"text":"華語教育是一個很好的橋樑是我們華語的老師師資不足因為這部分只要對方的學校有需求"},{"start":346.404,"end":374.181,"text":"所以他們現在是沒有這方面的需求對 這兩所學校就同仁跟我提到是說在合作裡面他們並沒有提出華語師資啦如果他們在推廣推動的過程有需要就會跟我們再提出來了解好 那我想這個優華語的部分當然我們也看到就是這些報告可能還必須要再有一些更近近的一些地方這個還要持續滾動再再再就像剛剛所說的如果新南向的一些國家可能還會有10個不同的據點那如果有最新的報告再提供給我們這樣子好"},{"start":376.282,"end":376.302,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":393.88,"end":411.825,"text":"大學的部分是確定要停招13所的私校可能在今年可能就要熄燈了我想其實在這個部分在私校退場不是只有私立大學的部分另外還包含所謂的像是高中職的部分"},{"start":412.745,"end":426.029,"text":"職校即職學校也是一樣的一個道理當然一方面是因為少子化那二方面其實也是因為相對應的所謂的學校的經費的部分他沒有辦法用更好的一個經費去請到更好的師資那也有可能變成這樣雖然我們的基本的這個條幅學察費的部分條幅有0.61%"},{"start":435.291,"end":462.731,"text":"但就某一個私校的這個大學的校長說這百分之零點六一好像吃了兩個漢堡都沒了所以其實這個部分因為有可能會讓很多的教育資源開始變成所謂的弱化我們講教育資源會變成所謂的M型化私校辦的好的私校或者是有口碑的一些私校還是一堆家長想要把孩子送進去私校但是我們相對來講又有一堆的私校其實就因為招不到學生也面臨要退場"},{"start":463.732,"end":464.833,"text":"蘇國庚委員報告這幾年對私校確實讓學生的這部分為了減輕他們的學貸負擔"},{"start":484.574,"end":485.074,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":505.16,"end":505.32,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":522.296,"end":522.396,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":546.826,"end":548.808,"text":"施教退場接著下來要接手的還有就是學生安置的一些問題都是非常大的問題可能也要再跟地方政府的教育局"},{"start":567.728,"end":567.868,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":583.502,"end":584.163,"text":"最後一點點時間我想4月10號其實我針對了所謂的開開案"},{"start":608.14,"end":608.42,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":631.141,"end":632.082,"text":"主管機關教育部針對財團法人法公告所謂的捐款人"},{"start":659.497,"end":659.557,"text":"主席"},{"start":689.199,"end":689.359,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":711.078,"end":714.2,"text":"那這個部分我不知道教育部要在這邊要做有沒有一個解釋啊?"},{"start":737.931,"end":745.153,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前我們跟委員部去做專案的查核當時也邀請幾位會計師一起去進行這個因為這個收支到底合不合相關的會計規範那個相關的法規那我想這個有詳細的查核報告是不是我再請司理頭把那個查核的情形讓委員了解好不好因為那真的是專業有專業的人員代表政府去查核我覺得是必要的"},{"start":767.039,"end":767.079,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173457949ee504d5d8eeab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4da08c380e87b7bb0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:37:17 - 10:53:32","影片長度":"00:16:15","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"duration":975,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:53:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:37:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時37分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，今天我們是審查、處理工會法，我們國民黨也有提出很多的版本，針對放寬消防員組織工會，最近桃園還有屏東發生了幾場大火，也讓很多的消防人員死傷慘重，所以消防員自己也因此組織了消防員工作權益促進協會，去年10月9號在凱達格蘭大道也舉行了國殤日的晚會，呼籲政府要開放消防員組織工會。我們國民黨黨團對消防員組織工會也都是支持，本席當初也有把它當作政見之一，針對我們要修正工會法第四條跟第六條放寬消防員組織工會，其實這也不是新議題。據我們瞭解，其實在第8屆國會的時候，民進黨的立委也提過相關的版本，要放寬消防員組織工會，可是我們今天好像只看到國民黨立委的版本跟黨團的版本，還有民眾黨的版本，好像沒有看到民進黨的版本。據我們的瞭解，當初這些提案連署的委員，是李應元連署的，那裡面有很多的委員，有即將高升總統府秘書長的，還有三位現在也在我們衛環委員會，所以我們認為其實民進黨應該也是支持的才對啊！","我們針對這個實質討論，整理了銓敘部跟人事行政總處，還有勞動部的觀點，我看了一下你們反對的觀點，整合了一下，你們反對的，好像不外乎就是消防員跟政府有公法上的職務關係，還肩負公共利益，不宜罷工，還有目前你們好像希望用公務人員協會法，只要把這個協會法優化就可以處理，是不是這樣子？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個也經過跨部、跨院的討論，主要是警消人員，第一個他是公務人員的身分；第二個就是他的工作牽涉到公共利益，所以不反對他們權益應該要保障，本來就應該保障，他們的團結權也應該要支持。只是因為是公務人員，是不是大家一體適用，不要有切割，警消人員另外用一套法，其他弄一套法……"],["涂委員權吉：沒有，我現在倒覺得我們要針對消防員的部分，當初消防員，民進黨政府過去也執政八年，我們剛剛講，之前民進黨很多立委都是支持，我們衛環委員會裡面也很多民進黨立委支持。這八年來，我認為民進黨執政，我們這些民進黨的立委，如果想要過，應該那八年沒有過不了的，我們看從105年到113年，最後只有在112年10月30號提了協會法。這協會法會提出的原因，就是因為我們消防員都跑上了凱達格蘭大道，在10月9號國殤日晚會上去陳情，後來我們才推出這個協會法。可是我們協會法推出之後，看起來還是不了了之，沒有繼續討論，沒有繼續進行啦！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，對於警消人員權益的主張，政府是很重視，只是大家要用什麼路徑去達到保障的目的，目前認為不管在體制上、法制上、身分上讓他一致的話，就是在公協法會比較適當，會比較快啦！"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係，我這邊也是建議啦！因為看一下我們教師，教師都可以組工會，為什麼消防員不行？我們看看他身分法律屬性，他也是公法上的職務關係，針對他的法律保障還有結社保障法規，我們消防有消防法、協會法，教師有教師法，其實早在馬英九政府的時候，那時候就讓教師組工會，所以我也同意消防員來組工會，但是跟教師一樣，我覺得就是列入不得罷工……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實教師他是屬於廣義的公務人員，但是他跟消防員的公務人員身分是不同的，他是屬於聘任關係啦，所以這兩個在身分上還是有區別啦！"],["涂委員權吉：我們今天消防署署長也有來，我希望我們還是要為這些消防員多爭取他們的權益，因為我們認為像教師都可以組工會，消防員看起來也可以組工會，我們只要把不得罷工列入，我覺得這應該是可行的啦！到時候還是希望署長跟部長，在這一方面來為我們消防員多幫忙。","部長，我再請問一下，針對我們試用期的約定，我想請部長看一下，勞基法的施行細則，勞資雙方依工作特性，在不違背契約誠信原則下自由約定，勞工於試用期之相關勞動權益與一般受僱勞工並無不同。部長，這應該是我們勞動部勞動關係司發布的訊息沒有錯吧？在2021年11月24號，勞動部發布的訊息。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，這個訊息沒有問題。所以我們可以知道，我們勞基法本身就有試用期的約定嘛，因為這是你們公布的嘛！"],["許部長銘春：委員，這很清楚喔！勞基法沒有規定試用期，你可以去看條文，但是這邊我們尊重勞僱雙方另外的約定，你只要遵守勞基法的規範就好了。"],["涂委員權吉：那我問你，我們是不是沒有反對、沒有禁止試用期？沒有禁止嘛！"],["許部長銘春：就是勞資雙方只要合意……"],["涂委員權吉：沒有禁止嘛！"],["許部長銘春：沒有禁止。"],["涂委員權吉：我只要知道沒有禁止就好了。"],["許部長銘春：但是你所有的權……"],["涂委員權吉：所以並沒有不允許嘛！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個你們可以約定、要合意，但是勞基法對於勞工的保障沒有分試用期、非試用期勞工。"],["涂委員權吉：好，重點是它沒有禁止嘛！沒有禁止，試用期沒有違法啦？"],["許部長銘春：沒有違法，就是……"],["涂委員權吉：你就沒有禁止嘛，就沒有禁止，沒關係！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，要合意啦，要兩個講好啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對，對，對，合意嘛！"],["許部長銘春：但是兩個人合意之後……"],["涂委員權吉：並沒有不行嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，但是我強調的是，雖然兩個合意約定試用期，但他相關的權利義務，縱使是試用期間，跟現在的勞工是一樣的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長，沒關係，我只要知道我們勞動部並沒有禁止試用期。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，勞基法也沒有禁止試用期，而且我們也有講試用期的約定，表示試用期並沒有違法……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，勞基法是最低的規範啦，你只要優於勞基法……"],["涂委員權吉：沒有違法……"],["許部長銘春：不要違反規定，都可以約定。"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒有違法啦！"],["許部長銘春：但是勞基法的規範、權利義務，勞資雙方通通要遵守。"],["涂委員權吉：對，好。所以勞動部並沒有禁止試用期，而且我們看這個約定，就可以知道期間的勞動條件就要符合勞基法，對不對？對嘛，所有約定都要符合勞基法，這沒有問題嘛！所以在母法勞基法的規範之中，我們如何訂定？就算試用期，彼此雙方訂定也不能違反勞基法，所以也不能低於最低工資，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：當然。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛，不能低於2萬7,470元，在勞基法的規範之下，你不管做什麼約定都不能低於勞基法最低薪資2萬7,470元。所以假設我們今天提出勞基法新增草案條文「試用期間之工資，除其勞動條件差異而另行約定不低於應聘工資百分之八十之外，應依應聘工資數額照給」，然後後面有註明「試用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定」，也就是勞基法的規定，所以不管怎麼規範，就是不能低於最低工資，沒有錯吧？一定要符合母法嘛，不然你也不會通過啊，部長，這個沒有什麼陷阱啦，你不要不好意思回答。"],["許部長銘春：「應聘工資百分之八十」，這樣的規定我覺得不適宜耶……"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長，不管我們怎麼修改、增訂條文就是不能低於嘛！就算怎麼樣就是不能低於嘛！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，在條文裡面去把一個員工的薪資條件定明在某個期間，要給他打幾折，我覺得這樣不好吧？"],["涂委員權吉：不是，沒關係，我的意思是說……"],["許部長銘春：我想大家的出發點，應該是要保障勞工的權益，促進勞資的和諧……"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以我後面有講，試用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定，本法也就是勞基法。"],["許部長銘春：委員，我覺得……"],["涂委員權吉：所以剛剛你有講，不管我們怎麼去訂定，就是不能違反勞基法的規定。"],["許部長銘春：是啊，但是我們聘一個員工進來，你應該是看他的專業、看他的能力來決定他的薪資……"],["涂委員權吉：不是，我們上面有寫差異條件……"],["許部長銘春：而不是用一個期間，給他打八折或幾折，這對勞工的權益不尊重吧！"],["涂委員權吉：部長，請你看清楚……"],["許部長銘春：勞工的專業能力……"],["涂委員權吉：我們今天提出這個，最後有講……"],["許部長銘春：才是決定他薪資重要的因素，而不是用一個期間去規範……"],["涂委員權吉：好，就算百分之八十，重點是試用期間之勞動條件，應符合本法之規定，也就是再怎麼樣訂定不能低於勞基法的2萬7,470元。"],["許部長銘春：涂委員，重點在打折啦，我覺得重點在打折啦！我們應該是……"],["涂委員權吉：部長，剛剛我們有講，不管怎麼規定就是不能低於2萬7,470元……"],["許部長銘春：但是委員……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們這個新訂條文，就算它怎麼規範，也是不能低於本法之規定。"],["許部長銘春：委員，2萬7,470元的最低工資，是在保障最基層、最邊際、最弱勢勞工的薪資啊！你把一個試用期勞工的薪資打八折，然後說不低於基本工資，我覺得這是對勞工很不尊重。第一個，你沒有以他的專業跟能力來決定他的薪資，這個不行啦！"],["涂委員權吉：部長，它有講勞動差異，就是勞資雙方去訂定，因為他們勞資雙方訂定，有可能他在試用期間所做的工作內容並不用這麼完善……"],["許部長銘春：委員，你這樣條文一訂定，所有勞工進來，他不看你專業能力啦，如果起薪是4萬，就直接給你打八折，3萬2,000起跳了，這樣子對勞工的權益是減損的。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，部長，我的重點是如果這個條文訂定下去，我們是不是不管怎麼訂定……"],["許部長銘春：委員，我覺得你們可能出發點是良善……"],["涂委員權吉：我們不要轉移話題，我想請問這個訂定是不是……"],["許部長銘春：但是請你考慮清楚，勞工權益、薪資跟勞資的和諧，你要兼顧。我剛剛講，勞工的薪資不是用一個期間去給他打折，勞工的薪資，當他一進來，就是看他多少能力、多少條件、他的專業在哪裡，你就給他薪資，不是所有的人一畢業進來，我通通都給你打8折，這樣可以嗎？"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我要說明的是這個訂定是不是不會低於27,470？你只要回答我這個問題就好了。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，所有的勞工薪資都不能低於基本工資，這是勞基法的規定……"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以這個修正條文就算……"],["許部長銘春：你不是來打8折，再加一個不低於基本工資，就認為這樣是保障勞工，不是這樣子啦！"],["涂委員權吉：不是，我的意思是部長這個還可以討論，但是不能在還沒有討論之前，就曲解這個修正條文的意義。"],["許部長銘春：委員，沒有曲解，我現在是告訴你我們都已經要求……"],["涂委員權吉：那我問這個條文修正……"],["許部長銘春：我們都要求薪資低於4萬你要公告，依修正的就服法，你要揭示欸！那時候我們的召集人也非常支持啊！我們那個法案當薪資低於4萬你要去公開……"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長、部長，我覺得針對我的問題，你有點走遠了。"],["許部長銘春：但是你現在訂一個應聘在試用期間，不管有沒有經驗，進來通通打8折，我覺得這樣對勞動權益非常不尊重，而且會殘害到勞工權益的。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我講我們這個修法的重點，試用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定，你只要回答我這個問題，最終就是不能低於27,470，對不對？這個修改條文後面……"],["許部長銘春：所有員工的薪資就是不能低於最低工資啦……"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！不能低於27,470……"],["許部長銘春：低於最低工資就要被處罰啦！"],["涂委員權吉：所以報告部長，我今天要講的重點是這個條文都可以討論，但是我不知道為什麼我們的衛福部準次長在還沒有討論的時候，就在4月30號勞動節的前一天直接說目前勞基法不允許試用期，所以剛剛部長我有問你，勞基法並沒有不允許試用期喔！而且他說變相低薪（逃脫勞基法最低薪資規定），我覺得這根本就是認知作戰；我們提這個條文還沒有討論，而且勞基法從頭到尾並沒有不允許，我們的準次長還沒有上任，居然就在網路散播不實的謠言，直接說勞基法不允許試用期，而且變相低薪，逃脫勞基法最低薪資規定，我覺得這就是認知作戰。可是我沒有想到勞動部從頭到尾沒有針對這些做任何的解釋跟處理，還任由網路散播謠言，說國民黨團提出這個是要刪勞工的薪資，根本就是斷章取義。","我今天的重點就是這個條文，我們的原意根本就不是這樣，部長你很清楚，就是不能低於27,470，居然說我們提的版本是要到達22k，可是我也沒有看到任何主管單位出來做這個澄清。所以我今天希望部長也能夠讓大家瞭解這件事情，尤其是衛福部準次長還沒有上任就掀起這種風波，公然散播假新聞，這是他的專業，他也做過衛福部的召委，所以希望針對這部分，我們大家好好地檢討、瞭解一下。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra 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後來我們才推出這個協會法可是我們看到這個協會法推出之後後來看起來還是不了了之沒有繼續再討論沒有繼續再進行啊"},{"start":251.812,"end":267.749,"text":"議員,其實對於警消人員的一些權益的主張政府是很重視的。只是說大家要用什麼路徑去達到他保障的目的。目前認為說不管在體制上法制上"},{"start":271.232,"end":296.192,"text":"公協法會比較適當我這邊也是建議啦因為我們看一下我們教師啊教師都可以組工會為什麼消防員不行我們看看他身份法律屬性他也是公法上的職務關係那針對他的法律保障還有保障法規我們消防有消防法協會法那教師有教師法"},{"start":298.314,"end":320.407,"text":"其實早在馬英九政府的時候那時候就讓教師組工會所以我也同意消防員來組這個工會但是跟教師一樣我覺得就是列入不得罷工其實教師他是屬於廣義的工人但是他跟消防員的工人是不同他是屬於聘任關係啦"},{"start":322.028,"end":345.667,"text":"兩人在身份上還是有區別希望我們今天消防署署長也有來我針對希望我們還是要為我們這些消防員來多爭取他們的權益因為我們認為像教師都可以組工會消防員看起來也可以組工會我們這要把不得罷工我覺得列入我覺得這應該是可行的"},{"start":346.648,"end":360.559,"text":"除此之外,希望署長及部長為我們消防員多幫忙。部長,我再請問一下,針對我們試用期的約定,這部分我想請部長看一下,這個試用期的約定,我們看一下,"},{"start":371.247,"end":387.257,"text":"勞基法的施行細則,勞資雙方依工作特性,在不違背契約誠信原則下自由約定,勞工與適用期制相關勞動權益與一般受僱勞工並無不同。我想請問一下部長,這應該是我們勞動部勞動關係司發布的訊息沒有錯吧?"},{"start":392.005,"end":411.8,"text":"獎項獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":412.005,"end":439.565,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":440.776,"end":465.898,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草"},{"start":468.54,"end":483.117,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 並沒有禁止適用期。我請問一下,居然勞動部勞基法也沒有禁止適用期,而且我們也有講適用期的約定表示適用期並沒有違法。"},{"start":483.578,"end":484.88,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":502.262,"end":527.976,"text":"免禁止試用期,而且我們看這個約定就可以知道期間的勞動條件就要符合勞基法對不對對嗎所以約定都要符合勞基法這沒有問題嘛所以在這個母法勞基法的規範之中我們如何訂定就算試用期彼此雙方訂定也不能違反勞基法所以也不能低於最低工資對不對"},{"start":529.817,"end":544.699,"text":"對嘛不能低於27470所以在勞基法的規範之下你不管做什麼約定都不能低於勞基法最低薪資27470所以假設我們今天提出我們勞基法的規範"},{"start":546.854,"end":560.465,"text":"假設我們今天提出勞基法新增草案條文適用期間之工資除其勞動條件差異而另行約定不得低於應聘工資之80%之外"},{"start":562.426,"end":577.914,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．"},{"start":589.295,"end":616.176,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":616.696,"end":631.605,"text":"我後面有講喔是用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定本法也就是勞基法所以剛剛你有講不管我們怎麼去訂定就是不能違反勞基法的規定但是你現在"},{"start":632.626,"end":637.768,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":649.993,"end":670.081,"text":"老公的專業能力才是捷運發行之重要的因素,而不是用一個期間去規範。就算80%,重點是用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定,也就是再怎麼樣訂定就是不能低於勞金法的27070。"},{"start":673.334,"end":678.077,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »:"},{"start":694.608,"end":694.648,"text":"獎項目獎項目"},{"start":709.944,"end":713.026,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":734.241,"end":739.066,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":758.084,"end":775.178,"text":"候選人的薪資他一進來你就是看他多少能力多少條件他的專業在哪裡你就給他薪資不是說所謂的一進來一畢業通通我通通給你打八折這樣可以嗎部長我要說明的是這個訂定是不是"},{"start":775.638,"end":779.939,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。厲 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。厲 國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":805.819,"end":807.961,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":830.057,"end":843.543,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 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本席想請客委會周副主委"},{"start":11.553,"end":16.557,"text":"副主委,您有去過善假時從嗎?有,信奉您敢說哪一份?有動到昨天政府的委書。昨天請你來本豪道的基金會規宣,您的善假時從嗎?"},{"start":31.427,"end":34.81,"text":"當然先鋒香港所群會內經濟的方向有半年,因為其實現在先鋒有新莊的書倉,就是在三甲書倉到底是…在東郷,東郷全部都跪審。在地,在地。在地,要拜託了。"},{"start":48.081,"end":53.364,"text":"我們也希望你做到結束做我們的輔助委員我們會為你所做的努力三、我最想請問你姓部的圖書館的設備的更新還有你姓部老街中你所做的"},{"start":78.854,"end":102.501,"text":"道路跟招牌的淪亂還有原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝、語文的傳承和推動原住民的文藝"},{"start":105.882,"end":112.645,"text":"那看到5月8日審查完畢呢?對,在上禮拜全都要到府內去慶祝順便跟員工進行商討,全都要去到府內。拜託啦,因為客家粽啊,因為客家粽在府內吃醋,因為客家粽正在動作的規範就在規範的好好啊。對,全部要轉案就在進行這種,對。"},{"start":131.215,"end":151.216,"text":"所以本席在這裡希望就是說我們客家莊的不管市場還有客家莊的一些老街包含我們客家莊的圖書館還有一些譯文還有語文傳承活動的推動我們都希望客委會可以全力的來協助好不好"},{"start":152.217,"end":157.663,"text":"老委員報告,特效委員特別提到文憶福興的計劃,是由全新核桿文化論議員相關競選委員的那種預算,在新部局的計劃實在袖掌之中。"},{"start":171.082,"end":183.786,"text":"我們希望可以全力的看到我們這個課委會能夠來協助好不好,好,謝謝本席接下來想請我們原民會的中副主委有請中副主委副主委,本席想請教你我們原住民的這個"},{"start":195.026,"end":223.379,"text":"守獵權是不是應該好好的保障這個是原住民的文化很重要的文化本席想請教你去年1月就已經預告的原住民獵槍管理辦法草案為什麼到今年5月都還不能完成法規的程序法規的主管機關是內政部但我們一直都有配合參與開會提供主人的相關建議"},{"start":224.824,"end":232.61,"text":"那所以您覺得這個管理辦法有沒有辦法保障我們原住民族的文化權跟狩獵權你覺得有沒有辦法這一個管理辦法草案到現在沒有這個確立這個之前也有經過大法官解釋803號的解釋他是在110年"},{"start":255.388,"end":273.835,"text":"對110年就公佈希望在兩年內能夠來修正但是兩年的話就是到去年的5月7號可是竟然已經到現在到今年5月7號已經一年了但你們對這個完全現在空窗期"},{"start":275.055,"end":301.892,"text":"現在跟內政部警政組大概都有一些共識比如說族人對於原有的自製獵槍的部分那本席剛剛問的就是說那這個辦法草案您覺得能保障我們原住民的文化權跟狩獵權嗎你覺得可以嗎這個部分因為對於槍支的部分跟以前來比較算是有改善因為可以進口槍支對於槍的安全性的使用有多考量你一定要好好回答"},{"start":304.137,"end":328.774,"text":"這個原住民委員會不管主委、副主委你們開會的時候代表原住民啊你去跟內政部開會的時候所以你覺得這個管理辦法草案能夠保障原住民族的文化權、狩獵權啊當然這還有討論的空間因為族人也是用那你有反應嗎有有我們都有反應你現在新的辦法要向國外購買這個零件、子彈然後送回來那"},{"start":331.076,"end":341.29,"text":"當初原本是怕我們自己土製的不安全嘛現在安全了可是沒辦法打獵了現在安全了買不起那我們原住民的這個狩獵權要怎麼維護"},{"start":343.733,"end":369.694,"text":"這個槍支內政部警政組說評估大概跟自製獵槍的價格大概不相上下應該差不多那這樣我們有落差跟我們原住民取得獵槍的成本現行這個辦法規定的是高出2到10倍原住民買不起還有這個故障了還要送到國外維修這個原住民的一個生活要送到國外維修"},{"start":372.108,"end":390.986,"text":"這個要想辦法 會會 這個要討論一些配套措施因為不可能槍壞掉還要送到國外所以這個部分都有在跟警政署在討論細節的部分你們討論夠久了 現在空窗期一年了這個可不可以加速啊 可不可以加速 可以加速多快"},{"start":393.819,"end":406.391,"text":"我看我們召委的立場怎麼樣你這已經去年5月7號就應該要出來的到今年5月7號沒有那我們原住民現在怎麼辦他的狩獵權、文化權怎麼保障所以你們是不是可以提供你們出席行政機關會議的法制意見因為我們對這個我們很好奇我們也很關心啊"},{"start":419.577,"end":421.821,"text":"是,沒有問題,好,謝謝委員的關心,謝謝好,謝謝新委員,也謝謝這個總副主委"}]}},{"id":"152432","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152432","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173499a37638fef5978ba2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4de43e0eced403f9ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:44:13 - 10:49:42","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":329,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:49:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:44:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時44分）謝謝主席，有請國安局副局長，謝謝。"],["主席：請國安局副局長。"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝主席，委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：副局長早安。我想我們就直接切入今天的命題，因為我的時間不夠，我想問一下，為什麼要談今天這兩個命題？因為其實在習近平訪歐之後，有非常多相關的資訊，尤其是中國方面釋出非常多有利於中國的說法，那我相信很多國人在看到類似消息的時候，可能也會回過來想臺灣跟歐洲的關係又是什麼，所以我們今天先來討論，第一個，在紐約時報中文網裡面寫了這麼一段話，就是習近平訪問這個狀況，但是看到其實好像不是中國所釋出來的消息，看起來是那麼正向，而且其實有越來越多相關國家對中國感到不滿，一個是關於區域安全跟經濟安全的部分，國安局自己在這個相關議題上，有沒有什麼相關作為可以對國人報告及說明？"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝委員。以我們的觀察，的確有越來越多東歐國家對中國不滿，主要就是一些經濟上的因素，還有地區安全的因素，這些都會制約它跟歐洲的一些關係及進展。包括像是電動車、電池這些大量地出口，用比較低的價格到歐洲去，會影響到他們的工作權以及他們的生活，都會讓這些東歐國家產生一些疑慮，這些可能直接就會影響到他們的關係。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，不過我剛剛已經說了，就是我們大家在立法院討論這些事情，或者是關心國家大事、國際大事的人可能會關心，可是如果在民間，他們所流放出去的訊息，大家會看到很多假訊息，就是看起來習近平跟法國總統握手很開心啊，甚至還有所謂的漂亮的夫人外交。國安局或是外交部，對於這些事情的相關資訊澄清，要如何用更有效率的方法讓國人清楚地明白相關爭議？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我想中共會不斷地在媒體釋放出友歐的這些畫面，這個我們一定可以瞭解，我們一定會接觸得到。委員剛才指教的是，我們應該有更多元的管道把真正的實情介紹給國人知道，我想這個我們應該可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們會有什麼相關的作為或措施嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們國安局的工作只是蒐集這些情報，我們會給權責機關，他們應該會對外來做說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為我覺得這個說明相當、相當地重要，怎麼說呢？因為當我們在瞭解中國跟這些歐洲國家的關係，其實大家很好奇哪些歐洲國家對中國是友善的，而友善的原因又是什麼？又有哪些國家是不友善的，不友善的原因又是什麼？如同剛剛副局長您說的，有電動車、電池的問題，甚至我們看到在他出訪歐洲之後，匈牙利的在野黨也提出相關建議，他們說我們如果對中國的投資照單全收，相關的投資跟政策會影響到匈牙利本國的民主自由價值，同時也會分裂整個歐盟，相關的論述，我們怎麼讓更多人清楚地明白這件事情對於臺灣民主自由的影響？我相信如同剛剛您所說的，你們會把相關資訊蒐集，然後委由主管機關對民眾做更多的說明，對嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝您。","我們來看下一個，下一個要問的是，其實在訪歐之後，習近平在2016年也曾經造訪捷克，當時捷克總統對中國是相對友善，不過他現在已經卸任了，現在的捷克總統彼得總統其實已經對外說，他說中國並不是一個友好的國家。所以我想要請問國安局，在臺灣的我們可不可以解讀成中國像戰狼一般不友善、不民主的外交政策，確實也讓臺灣和歐洲國家的互動，算是有一些相對友善的互動，並且也往前走？我們可以這樣解讀嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。如果在這樣解讀的情況下，日前某一位在野黨委員做了一個公開洩密的動作，我相信你們也很清楚，後續這樣的事情假設再發生，或者是後續所產生的效應，你們這邊怎麼看？"],["徐副局長錫祥：我們臺灣的自由民主是最好的武器，我們會聯繫跟我們理念相同的國家，加強我們互相的交流，我們可以讓更多的國家理解我們。"],["陳委員培瑜：我時間有限，我想我就提醒國安局，自由民主確實是我們非常、非常好的武器，也是我這個世代覺得非常珍貴跟重視的價值，我也希望可以流傳到我的小孩、下一代，甚至再更下下一代。但是不是有人就拿自由民主作為一種工具，然後散發很多令人混亂的假訊息也好，或是很多令人感覺到不舒服的訊息也好，我想這都是國安或是外交單位需要積極保持重視的，對嗎？"],["徐副局長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。以上，謝謝國安局。"],["徐副局長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.59034375,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.79721875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.48034375,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.32659375,"end":132.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.38971875000001,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.82409375,"end":155.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.06159375000001,"end":157.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.82909375,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.70534375,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.80721875,"end":217.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.33034375000003,"end":220.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.12721875000003,"end":264.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.79971875,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.86096875000004,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.84096875,"end":329.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.87846875,"end":328.75596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.371,"end":2.051,"text":"請國安局副局長"},{"start":10.65,"end":36.712,"text":"謝謝主席 委員長副局長早安我想我們就直接切入今天的命題因為我的時間不夠我想問一下其實為什麼要談今天這兩個命題因為其實在習近平訪歐之後有相關多非常多的資訊尤其是中國方面其實釋出非常多有利於中國的說法那我相信很多國人在看到類似的消息的時候可能也會回過來想那台灣跟歐洲的關係又是什麼所以我們今天先來討論第一個"},{"start":38.673,"end":38.813,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":67.52,"end":91.515,"text":"我想的確是我們的觀察那的確有越來越多的東歐國家對中國的不滿主要就是一些經濟上的因素還有地區安全的因素這都會制約他跟歐洲的一些關係進展包括他們這些好像電動車、電池這些大量的出口那用比較低的價格"},{"start":92.315,"end":92.495,"text":"對,不過我剛才已經說"},{"start":108.033,"end":131.792,"text":"我們在立法院討論這些事情或者是關心國家大事、國際大事的人可能會關心可是如果在民間他們所流放出去的訊息大家看到是很多假訊息就是看起來習近平跟法國總統握手很開心甚至還有所謂的漂亮的夫人外交我覺得我們國安局或者是外交部在這個事情上相關的資訊澄清要如何用更有效率的方法讓國人清楚的明白相關的爭議"},{"start":134.414,"end":136.655,"text":"所以你們會有什麼相關的作為或措施嗎?"},{"start":157.881,"end":162.706,"text":"對,因為我覺得這個說明相當相當的重要,怎麼說呢?因為當我們在了解中國跟這些歐洲國家的關係,其實大家很好奇哪些歐洲國家到底對中國是友善的,而友善的原因又是什麼?"},{"start":178.342,"end":203.791,"text":"那不友善又有哪些國家那不友善的原因又是什麼如同剛剛副局長您說的有這個電動車電池的問題甚至我們在看到他出訪歐洲之後匈牙利的在野黨他們也提出相關的建議他們說我們如果對中國的投資照單全收相關的投資跟政策會影響到匈牙利本國的民主自由價值同時也會分裂整個歐盟"},{"start":204.511,"end":219.944,"text":"向相關的論述我們怎麼讓更多人清楚的明白這件事情對於臺灣民主自由的影響我相信如同剛剛您所說的你們會把相關資訊收集然後委由主管機關做更多的對民眾的說明對嗎是的好那謝謝您好那下一個我們來看下一個"},{"start":221.161,"end":237.187,"text":"那下一個要問的是其實在訪歐之後習近平總統習近平他在2016年也曾經造訪捷克當時捷克總統他對中國相對是友善不過他現在已經卸任了那現在的總統捷克總統"},{"start":237.967,"end":260.903,"text":"彼得總統他其實已經對外說他說中國並不是一個友好的國家所以我想要請問國安局是不是我們可以解讀成我們在台灣的我們可不可以解讀成中國像戰狼一般的不友善不民主的外交政策確實也讓台灣還有歐洲國家的互動算是有一些相對友善的互動往前走我們可以這樣解讀嗎可以"},{"start":262.664,"end":274.736,"text":"那如果在這個解讀的情況下日前某一位在野黨委員他做了一個公害泄密的動作我相信你們也很清楚那後續這樣的事情假設在發生或者是後續所產生的效應你們這邊怎麼看?"},{"start":278.138,"end":297.592,"text":"我們台灣的自由民主是最好的武器我們會聯繫跟我們理念相同的國家我們加強我們的互相的交流那我們可以讓更多的國家能夠理解我們"},{"start":297.972,"end":297.992,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":326.696,"end":327.639,"text":"好那以上謝謝國安局謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17345d4852edafa849e8076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4d02348c06207a9cc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:38:36 - 10:44:45","影片長度":"00:06:09","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":369,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:44:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:38:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時38分）主席，幫我請原文會跟原語會的董事長。"],["主席：好，瑪拉歐斯董事長、馬耀．谷木董事長，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：兩位董事長好。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員好。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛看到原民會第1頁的報告，年度預算是4.62億元跟2.9億元，這個費用多久沒有調了？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們的預算十年都沒有調整，從東森開始，我們一直沒有調整。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：這對我們來說很困難，因為其他客臺……"],["盧委員縣一：你知道現在紐西蘭的毛利電視臺是多少嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：10億元。"],["盧委員縣一：原本在2021年的時候，它大概只有三億多臺幣，不到4億臺幣，可是現在已經超過9億了，所以這方面是你們要努力還是？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：當然我們在力求精進以外，也一直跟主管機關反映。"],["盧委員縣一：公共電視臺是多少？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：公共電視是24億元。"],["盧委員縣一：那客家呢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：客家目前是6億，還有台語臺是9億。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，你要講我們現在是16族，加上未來的平埔族，所以這個預算一定是不夠的，對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：非常不夠，短缺。"],["盧委員縣一：你一定要讓大家知道非常不夠。我們原語會目前的預算是2.9億，那客家呢？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，我們原來是2億，後來因為國家語言發展法就增加將近1億，所以是2.9億元。"],["盧委員縣一：你知道現在客家多少嗎？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：我不清楚。"],["盧委員縣一：7億，是不是？大概7億嘛？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：對。"],["盧委員縣一：你在有聲辭典、字典的部分做了多少努力？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：目前我們至少有一個族語E樂園，這個已經是……"],["盧委員縣一：可是我在看的時候好像內容都沒有進步，或者很像只是一個小學生的層級。"],["馬耀谷木董事長：對，我們內部有在做討論，也在招標，這是第一個。第二個，目前我們已經在招標處理有關AI的部分。"],["盧委員縣一：是，那app的部分呢？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：我們有app。"],["盧委員縣一：也是有嗎？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：也有，我們原語會本身就有app。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我只有看到人事費占13.5%，可是其他的細項我就看不到錢到底花在哪裡。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：好，我們再給委員內部的說明。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道你們是永久會址，為什麼當初不做一個類似興建合宜住宅的部分呢？你看未來有通勤補助、遷居補助、住宿補助，如果是永久會址，我們乘以100年好了，一年多少錢然後乘以100的話，遠遠超過興建合宜住宅的數字，不是嗎？未來的國家博物館也是原住民博物館，因為我們原住民都散居全國，然後你設置一個單位在那裡，你一定要先解決員工的住宿問題。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，我們的補助大概是一年左右，所以我們會鼓勵他們……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是說你們的召集委員或是專門委員在開會的時候，是不是應該把這個當作第一優先項目啊？不然員工去哪裡找地方住呢？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：謝謝委員，我們跟桃園市政府在第一時間有做，他們有提供一些方案，我們也納入積極討論。"],["盧委員縣一：因為時間的關係，關於永久會址專案小組的成員名單、專業設備諮詢小組的名單，我希望能把族別、專業別彙整給我們，好不好？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：好。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我覺得去看的時候都很像是單一族群，而且不知道他的專業在哪裡，是不是可以更透明化，讓我們了解你們真正在上面做事情的人的角度在哪裡？可不可以？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，我們跟原民會、原文會都有相關的專業背景以及有關原住民文化藝術的委員來參與。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個是你們建立溝通機制跟反饋機制是透過通訊軟體，你可以舉例嗎？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：委員意思是……"],["盧委員縣一：你們在處理員工的溝通。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，我們有一個勞方跟資方定期的會議。"],["盧委員縣一：就是你們透過資訊軟體……"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：我們內部當然會有這個，也有實體的會議，這是第一個方法。"],["盧委員縣一：原文會或原語會常常會出現這樣的問題，因為我們好不容易消弭原住民被主流社會歧視的問題，可是還常出現這樣的問題，是不是要盡力來消弭這樣的聲音，好不好？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，至少在語言部分上我們很快就會做反應。"],["盧委員縣一：好。我剛看了原文會未來有三個目標，對不對？我希望在消弭族群歧視部分，你們應該要多做努力。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：目前看到的這個圖片都是過去所發生的。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道。未來你們因應新媒體的時候，要把消弭歧視這個部分放進來，你要多做努力，而不是只針對軟體的運用什麼什麼的，這樣就跟別的電視台一樣了。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們有一個「Lima幫幫忙」的電視節目，是專門討論性別跟族群的議題，另外Podcast也有，收視率還很不錯！"],["盧委員縣一：今天主席也說了，你們很多東西都沒有數據，所以我們沒有辦法明白你們的努力，請再加油，謝謝！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：好，謝謝盧委員！"],["主席：非常謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，也謝謝兩位董事長。","繼續我們請徐欣瑩委員。然後黃捷委員質詢結束，我們就來處理臨時提案，謝謝！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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幫我請兩位董事長請兩位 對不起兩位 原文會跟原語會董事長OK 好 希望老師也要鼓勵兩位董事長 謝謝兩位董事長好我想知道就是說我剛剛看到第一頁就是原民會的報告就是年度預算是4.62億元跟2.9億元這個費用多久沒有調了"},{"start":32.131,"end":45.163,"text":"報告委員我們的預算10年都沒有調整從東森開始我們一直沒有調整所以你覺得這樣合理嗎這個對我們來說很困難你知道現在紐西蘭多少嗎"},{"start":46.974,"end":71.861,"text":"十億毛利電視台毛利對他原本在2021年的時候大概只有3億的台幣3億多不到4億台幣可是現在已經高達超過9億了所以這方面是你們要努力還是當然我們在力求精進以外就是我們也一直跟主管機關來反映那公共電視台是多少"},{"start":73.366,"end":98.219,"text":"公共電視是24那柯佳呢?柯佳目前是6億還有台語台是9億你要講說我們現在是16組加上未來的評估組所以這個預算一定是不夠的對不對?不夠,非常不夠,短缺一定要讓大家知道非常不夠我們原語會目前的預算是2.9億那柯佳呢?"},{"start":100.757,"end":109.042,"text":"對,跟委員說明一下,我們原來是2億,那後來是因為有國家研發方法就增加將近1億,所以2.9現在客價多少你知道嗎?"},{"start":109.042,"end":118.828,"text":"我不清楚7億,大概7億嘛,那你在做有聲詞典字典這個部分做了多少努力?"},{"start":119.949,"end":142.587,"text":"目前我們現在至少有一個族群醫樂園可是我在看的時候好像內容都沒有進步或者說很像只是一個小學生的一個層級對那個時候是我們有在做討論內部討論也都在招標這是第一個那麼第二個是目前我們已經有在招標已經在處理了那個有關AI的部分"},{"start":143.388,"end":157.226,"text":"那APP的部分呢?APP我們有也是有嗎?我們也有我們研議會本身就有APP因為我只有看到說你的人事費用是佔了13.5可是其他的細項我就看不到說你到底錢花在哪裡?"},{"start":159.099,"end":187.517,"text":"我們會再給委員這個內部的說明那我知道說你們是永久繪紙那為什麼不當初做一個類似興建合宇住宅這個部分呢你看你未來有通勤補助、遷居補助、住宿補助如果是永久繪紙我們乘100年好了那你一年如果你一年多少錢然後乘100的話你遠遠超過你興建那個合宇住宅的一個那個數字啊不是嗎"},{"start":188.197,"end":206.352,"text":"以後未來的國家博物館也是原住民博物館因為我們原住民都上去在全國然後你設置一個單位在那裡你一定要先解決員工的住宿的問題跟委員說明我們那個補助是大概一年左右所以我的意思是你們的召集委或者是專門委員是不是在"},{"start":207.173,"end":220.673,"text":"在做開會的時候應該要把這個優先當作第一項目啊不然員工去哪裡找地方做謝謝委員我們也跟桃園市政府有在第一次時間有做他們有提供這樣的一些方案我們也納入我們那個積極的這個討論先關修吧"},{"start":225.199,"end":244.936,"text":"我希望那個永久會子專小組的成員名單專業設備諮詢小組的名單我希望能夠有組別專業別彙整給我們好不好因為我覺得怎麼去看的說像是單一族群然後專業委不知道專業在哪裡是不是讓我們可以更透明化你們的"},{"start":245.737,"end":273.327,"text":"真正在上面在做事情的人你們的那個角度在哪裡可不可以跟委員說明我們這個跟言文和言明會我們都有那個相關的專業背景跟有關原住民文化藝術的這個委員在參與最後一個就是你們的建立溝通機制跟反饋機制是透過通訊軟體然後溝通機制跟反饋機制你可以做一個舉例嗎委員意思是你們在處理員工的溝通"},{"start":274.878,"end":291.868,"text":"那更委員說明我們有一個定期的勞資勞方跟資方勞資方的這些定期的會議是你透過資訊軟體但是我們當然內部會有這個我們然後也有實體的會議這是第一個方法了那我們看商業好了就是那個工會"},{"start":293.24,"end":312.615,"text":"那我是希望不要原文會或是原語會常常會出現這樣的問題好不好因為我們已經好不容易建立了一個比如說我們要消弭我們原住民的所謂的被主流社會歧視可是常常會出現這樣的問題的時候是不是要盡力的來消弭這樣的一個聲音好不好"},{"start":314.311,"end":328.485,"text":"至少我們在語言的部分上我們很快的就會做反應原民台我剛看了就是原文會的有三個目標對不對未來因應那我希望這個消米族群族群的歧視這個部分應該多做努力是"},{"start":329.025,"end":346.154,"text":"目前看到這個圖都是過去的發生的我現在未來你們因應新媒體的一個策略的時候你要把小米騎士這個部分放進來你要多做努力而不是只是針對軟體的運用什麼什麼的因為你就跟別的電視台是一樣的了我們在電視的節目有一個立馬幫幫忙是專門討論性別跟族群的一點"},{"start":352.697,"end":352.737,"text":"二、邀請"}]}},{"id":"152430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173441f2a0087a257744076aa6d1d4e027382d94006c6d412c4dd92122a11445de645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:17:46 - 10:32:11","影片長度":"00:14:25","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就「搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓整備事宜暨調動工作地點後員工各項權益是否合乎勞動基準法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。  二、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、客家委員會主任委員、財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長就「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-18"},"duration":865,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:32:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:17:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時17分）謝謝主席，請原民會鍾副主委、原文會瑪拉歐斯董事長、原語會馬耀．谷木董事長，還有勞動部的黃副司長。"],["主席：請以上提到的這些官員上臺備詢。"],["高金委員素梅：請問原文會和原語會預計什麼時候搬到新大樓，也就是原住民族語言傳播大樓？這個事誰要回答我？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：預計114年12月完工，但是搬遷大概是115年年初。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問一下搬到桃園之後，大臺北地區會不會還會有一個所謂的北區中心？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，就是為了新聞製作，我們會有一個中心在這裡。"],["高金委員素梅：對，因為中央部門單位都在臺北，也是資訊交流的集中地，請問這個問題你們在搬遷之前有沒有想過？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：有，我們在搬遷的小組都有討論。"],["高金委員素梅：北區中心要花錢租，對不對？依你們估計，大概會有多少人這樣來來去去？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：它是一個辦公區塊，提供給記者在臺北發稿的區域。"],["高金委員素梅：那會在哪裡？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們會招標。"],["高金委員素梅：所以還會有一筆錢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：會，會有一個招標的費用。"],["高金委員素梅：所以就是說們搬遷新大樓不是真的只有17億，因為就像你剛剛講的，還會有一個北區中心，然後還有員工的權益要爭取，包括交通的補助、遷居的補助、合宜住宅的規劃、托育補助四項，已經啟動了嗎？請問還要花多少錢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：員工權益的部分一年度是編列2,000萬。"],["高金委員素梅：這2,000萬包括托育補助、搬遷補助、合宜住宅的規劃，是嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["高金委員素梅：所以準備要幾年？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，3年。"],["高金委員素梅：一年2,000萬，等於就是還會有6,000萬，萬一這些人在3年當中的權益沒被照顧到，怎麼辦？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們一樣會以勞基法的方式……"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問一下黃副司長，目前這個案子你們有介入嗎？在他們針對這部分討論了之後，你們有沒有就員工應該要有的福利，提醒他們注意些什麼？"],["黃副司長琦雅：報告委員，因為這個案子之前原民會沒有請我們勞動部提供什麼協助，不過……"],["高金委員素梅：好，今天我邀請你來了，所以從今天開始你們要介入。"],["黃副司長琦雅：是。"],["高金委員素梅：然後原民會也好，原文會董事長也好，原語會董事長也好，你們所謂的討論小組今天必須要加入勞動部，然後要把員工權益放在第一，這就是我今天為什麼會邀請勞動部來的原因，好嗎？副司長。"],["黃副司長琦雅：是。"],["高金委員素梅：我在4月8號質詢客傳會董事長的時候，針對客傳會執行的網路媒體成效，我認為值得原文會來效法學習，所以今天我也特別安排一個專案報告，說明如何因應當代新媒體的發展趨勢來擬定經濟策略。在這裡我要給客傳會肯定，今天你們的報告非常完整，不僅僅提供了文字的敘述，還把大數據撈出來彙整成圖卡或者列表來呈現，其中更包含了所有類別的成效率、觸及率，這樣的精細，讓在座每一個立法委員一目瞭然。反觀原文會，我感到非常的失望，今天原文會的書面報告欠缺所有的數據，包括執行率、成效率、觸及率，沒有這些數據，怎麼能讓我們知道你們所有計畫的成效呢？怎麼樣讓我們立法委員審查你們的預算呢？來看一下原文會報告書第15頁：「成立數位媒體部與建置原住民族數位影音平台邁向未來趨勢，原文會發展新媒體之路，雖然在受限條件下，仍透過社群媒體與節目內容製作，獲得各界熱烈迴響」，什麼叫做熱烈迴響？請董事長簡單說明一下，沒有數據，什麼叫做熱烈迴響？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是，我們的數據……"],["高金委員素梅：在哪裡？今天要請你們來報告，為什麼沒有提供給本席呢？你們那又是秘密的東西嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：沒有，沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：那你現在拿的數據是什麼？不要浪費我的時間，以後希望你們趕快提出來。","報告第16頁也提到，你們要向主管機關提案，規劃未來成立數位媒體專屬部門，預計要編列每年度常態性業務預算4,000萬，新增員額25名，編制三個業務組分別為「社群策略組」、「平台發展組」、「跨域內容組」，透過專屬部門推動原文會的數位轉型，對嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["高金委員素梅：我是支持原文會的數位轉型，可是原文會到底有沒有清楚知道你們轉型到底要轉到哪裡？數位轉型不是繼續停留在攝影棚拍攝、錄製節目，而應該是要更多元化，是吧？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，是不是可以不要在攝影棚？也可以在街頭啊，更可以在任何角落，形式上除了電視還有廣播之外，FB、IG、Podcast或各類短影音應該都可以嘛，你們看過客傳會的客新聞嗎？在FB和IG都可以看到，他們是以新媒體多元化的主題，讓各個年齡層的人都有興趣關注，甚至他們在政策上的宣導都可以展示他們的多變性，但是我瞭解的是原文會和客傳會曾經有談過如何讓原文會更精進或研發，請問現在的進度到哪裡？你們的決策又是什麼？原民會支持、同意就是剛剛一直在講這個4,000萬嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，我們支持，也希望他們列入114到119年的原住民族文化……"],["高金委員素梅：副主委，你清楚的知道客傳會才花多少錢嗎？而且現在人家已經在做了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不是，如果……"],["高金委員素梅：所以一定要編4,000萬才會有這個？然後你們還是一個中長程計畫。","接著看一下，一樣是報告第16頁，原文會在今年度也就是2024年3月29號向主管機關（也就是原民會）提出114到119年度的中長程計畫，就是我剛剛講的建置專屬原住民族數位影音平台（OTT），以6年為期，第1到2年是平台建置期，第3到4年是數位影音優質內容產製期，預計每年自製內容2部、外部購製5部，我們看一下客傳會報告書第1頁，明確指出客傳會要辦理新媒體營運，一年編列1,500萬的預算，請問原文會董事長為什麼需要提案114到119年度的中長程計畫？然後你們說要建置專屬原住民族數位影音平台，請問你們是要在現有的社群網路，比如FB、IG、Podcast來做，還是你們所謂的兩年的平台建置期是要開發新的系統，新的app？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：數位媒體這一塊在發展上有非常大的變動性，所以我們在……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你一定要有這個所謂的中長程計畫，你才能做嗎？那你要做什麼？你也清楚嗎？請問原民會副主委，你同意他這個案子嗎？他的論述還有他的數據基礎夠不夠支持你們來支持這個中長程計畫？還是他只要調整現在的方向就可以了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：報告委員，目前因為才剛剛送來，還沒審查。"],["高金委員素梅：你們不瞭解，是不是？所以副主委回答之前，我們看一下原民會報告第3頁，有關原文會「營運情形暨如何因應新媒體發展趨勢」第二點說「原文會已於110年於原文會文化行銷部下籌設新媒體組（任務編組），主要任務為經營、管理，維護社群媒體平臺，及製作新媒體影音與Podcast節目」，所以副主委，你們110年已經籌設新媒體組了，為什麼今天原文會還要提案中長程計畫？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們現在新媒體的任務編組是4個人，然後每年是350萬，是非常小的規模。"],["高金委員素梅：所以110年你們已經跟原民會討論過這個問題了，對吧？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們有跟主管機關提出我們在這塊的需求。"],["高金委員素梅：那你們現在做了怎麼樣的精進、怎麼樣的進步、怎麼樣的數據？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員，除了Podcast，我們在YouTube……"],["高金委員素梅：數據在哪裡啊？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們再提供。"],["高金委員素梅：今天客委會都已經提出它從什麼時候開始、增加的數據，你的這個東西在110年已經跟原民會提出，但你們都沒有告訴我們這些數據！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們有這個數據，我們立刻再提供給委員。"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼今天不提出來呢？我在這邊講，如果你們之前在現有的制度都做不好，我是堅決你們要再提出這些預算啦！檢討一下原文會的營運情形，你們只講發揮「守護臺灣多元文化價值」的媒體影響力，正是原文會發展數位媒體的目標。你們隻字未提原文會整體的營運樣貌，你覺得現在很好了嗎？請問一下董事長，你們怎麼樣跟原語會或是在原民台、廣播裡面增加效益？現在原民會很清楚我們不叫羅馬拼音，我就講一個最簡單的事，它叫原住民文字，你們做了什麼樣的宣傳廣告？你們在既有的露出部分，有教育社會大眾了嗎？很顯然你們並沒有做得很好。","原民會副主委，您知道原文會除了在臺北總部有電視臺，因為議題太多了，有總部電視臺、廣播臺之外，還在三個地方設置原民臺新聞中心，你知道嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，在臺東有。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，中部有新聞中心，對不對？南部有新聞中心，對不對？東部有新聞中心，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["高金委員素梅：現在已經是5G的時代，網速和雲端科技非常發達，傳送影片的速度也非常快，所以我們有必要再設置所謂的地方中心嗎？是不是應該要整體檢討？而且我還聽說有非常多的中心現在是養老院。請問副主委，原民會清楚知道有這三個中心，它的執行率怎麼樣？你們所有既有的，要制度給制度、要錢給錢，全部都給你們了，然後今天來的報告都看不到檢討的東西，一直要錢、要計畫，接著我們下年度就要編預算了，你覺得原住民立法委員可以做你們的後盾嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員，我們是不是再瞭解一下目前的情況？"],["高金委員素梅：請原文會董事長簡單說明一下，為什麼報告書看不到總部還有三個地方的說明及數據？難道我還要再排一個專案報告嗎？還是在一個專案報告裡面，你們就可以把現在所做的事情全部講清楚、把數據提出來，以及未來有什麼精進的、你們必須要檢討的部分，今天的報告書不應該是這樣子嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我跟委員補充報告，我們三個中心最主要是能夠就近對部落的新聞做cover，所以三個中心……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，但現在已經是5G時代了，你覺得還需要這幾個中心嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：還是需要記者去採訪。"],["高金委員素梅：現在這幾個中心的執行率怎麼樣？好不好？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：績效很好。"],["高金委員素梅：未來還有一個臺北的喔！你們現在有4個中心。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：臺北是總部。"],["高金委員素梅：你們要錢給錢、要人給人……"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們跟客臺差1億的預算。"],["高金委員素梅：但是你們最基層員工的權益，就我知道，還沒有勞動部最新的薪資喔！你們是不是要報告一下？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員，我們開9次會已經有共識了。"],["高金委員素梅：我不是說搬遷的，我是說既有的、最基礎的員工權益，你們都還沒有照顧到喔！今天我講了非常多和原文會有關的部分，不管是5G、未來的時代或者是現在的多媒體，不管是你們的營運部分或者是為了搬遷的部分，有很多的問題。所以我希望鍾副主委跟原語會也好、原文會也好，一定要針對這次搬遷大樓之後，還有哪些要精進、檢討的部分，不是花17億就兩手一攤，什麼都不檢討了。請原文會在兩週之內，也請原民會還有原語會，你們再整理出最好的書面報告還有各項數據、規劃，否則的話，身為一個原住民的立法委員，從最早的電視臺成立，然後離開公共電視，現在我們有一個專屬自己的基金會，不管是原語會、原文會，你們要什麼都給什麼，但是你們真的有做很好嗎？在這裡我必須說你們不及格！謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高金召委的質詢。本席也謝謝高金召委幫本席補充很多想要瞭解的問題，雖然本席不是原住民立委，但是我們也會支持原住民的政策，前提是原民會真的要加油，Sa'icelen。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：我們現在休息5分鐘，待會再繼續質詢。","休息（10時32分）","繼續開會（10時38分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","請盧縣一委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-18","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","黃捷","鄭天財Sra 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副市長 謝謝"},{"start":168.963,"end":194.772,"text":"我在4月8日執行客傳會的董事董事長的時候我針對客傳會執行的網路媒體的成效我認為值得我們的原文會來效法學習所以今天我也特別安排一個專案報告說因應當代新媒體發展的趨勢來擬定經濟的策略在這裡我要給客傳會肯定今天你們的報告書非常的完整你不僅僅提供了文字的敘述你還把"},{"start":195.592,"end":217.779,"text":"大數據撈出來然後匯整成圖卡或者是列表來呈現其中跟包含了所有類別的成效率、觸及率這樣的精細我們可以讓在座的每一個立法委員一目了然但是反觀原文會我感到非常的失望今天原文會的書面報告裡面欠缺所有的數據還有你的執行率還有你的成效率、觸及率"},{"start":220.6,"end":237.575,"text":"沒有這些書記讓我們怎麼知道你們所有的計劃成效呢?怎麼樣讓我們立法委員審查你們的預算呢?來看看原文會報告書第15頁你們有說要成立數位媒體部跟建置原住民族數位影音平台你們要邁向未來的趨勢你有提到"},{"start":238.475,"end":252.247,"text":"緣分會心媒體之路雖然在受限條件之下你們仍然透過社群媒體跟節目內容製作獲得各界的熱烈迴響什麼叫做熱烈迴響請董事長簡單說明一下沒有數據什麼叫做熱烈迴響是我們的數據我們在哪裡今天要請你們來報告為什麼沒有提供給本席呢是你們那又是秘密的東西嗎沒有沒有那你現在拿的數據是什麼"},{"start":271.674,"end":277.756,"text":"以後希望你們趕快提出來第16頁報告也提到你們要向主管機關提案規劃未來成立數位媒體專屬部門"},{"start":284.282,"end":297.437,"text":"預計要編列每年度常態性的業務預算4000萬新增人額25名編制三個業務組別為社群策略組還有平台發展組還有快運內容組透過專屬的部門來推動原文會的數位轉型對嗎?"},{"start":304.571,"end":319.424,"text":"我是支持原文會的數位轉型可是原文會你們到底有沒有清楚知道你們轉型到底要轉到哪裡啊數位轉型不是繼續停留在攝影棚拍攝、錄製節目而應該是要更多元化嘛 是吧"},{"start":320.585,"end":329.849,"text":"所以是不是可以不要在攝影棚也可以在街頭啊也更可以在任何角落啊那形式上除了我們的電視還有廣播之外我們的FB、IG、Pocket或者是各類的短影應該都可以嘛所以你們原委會你們看過客傳會的客新聞嗎"},{"start":338.553,"end":365.267,"text":"他們在AFP和IG都可以看到他們的瀏覽他們是以新媒體多元化的主題讓各個年齡層的人都有興趣關注甚至他們在政策上面的宣導都可以展示他們的多變性但是我了解的是我原文會和客傳會你們曾經有談過如何讓我們的原文會更精進或者是研發請問現在的進度到哪裡你們決策又是什麼"},{"start":366.187,"end":381.557,"text":"原民會你們支持同意嗎?就是剛剛一直在講的這個4千萬嗎?是,我們支持也希望他們列入114到119年的原住民族文化那傅子惠你清楚知道你清楚知道人家客船會才花多少錢嗎?而且現在人家已經在做了"},{"start":385.016,"end":408.294,"text":"所以一定要編4千萬才會有這個然後你們還是一個中長程計畫接著看一下一樣報告書第16月原民會在今年度也就是2024 3月29號向主管機關提案也就是原民會114到119年度的中長程計畫就是我剛剛講的建制專屬原住民族數位影音平台然後以6年為期"},{"start":409.755,"end":426.741,"text":"一到第二年是要平台建置期第三到第四年是數位影音優質內容產製期預計從每年自製內容兩部外部構置五部我們看一下客傳會第一頁報告書看一下"},{"start":427.461,"end":456.828,"text":"他明確指出克傳會要辦理新媒體營運一年編列1500萬的預算請問原文會董事長為什麼需要提案114到119年度的中長程計劃然後你們說要建置專屬原住民族數位影音平台請問你們是要在現有的社群網路比如說FB IG Pocket來做還是你們所謂兩年的平台建置其實要開發新的系統新的APP請問一下"},{"start":458.041,"end":476.876,"text":"是 數位媒體這一塊有非常就是發展上的快變動性所以我們在所以你一定要有這個所謂的這個中長程計劃你才能做嗎那你要做什麼你清楚嗎請問原民會副主委你同意他這個案子嗎"},{"start":478.541,"end":499.241,"text":"他的論述還有他的數據的基礎夠不夠支持你們來支持他這個中長程計劃還是他只要調整現在的方向就可以了?目前因為才剛剛送來你們不瞭解是不是?所以所以呢副主委回答之前我們看一下原民會的報告第三頁"},{"start":500.509,"end":527.181,"text":"你們有關原文會營運情形及如何因應新媒體發展趨勢第二點你說原文會已經在110年在原文會的文化行銷部已經籌設了新媒體組這是任務編組主要任務是經營管理維護社群媒體平台還有製作新媒體影音跟Podcast節目所以副主委你們110年已經籌設新媒體組了為什麼今天原文會還要提案中長城計畫"},{"start":530.124,"end":542.532,"text":"請問一下報告委員我們現在新媒體的任務編組是4個人然後每年是350萬這個非常小的規模所以110年你們已經跟原民會討論這個問題了嘛對吧"},{"start":545.979,"end":567.704,"text":"我們有跟主管機關來提出我們在這塊的需求那你們現在做了什麼樣的精進?怎麼樣的進步?怎麼樣的數據?我們除了Podcast我們在YT、YouTube在哪裡啊?數據?你今天客委會都已經把這些他從什麼時候開始然後增加到去請那個助理再回到那個客委會今天的"},{"start":568.524,"end":589.504,"text":"你連這個東西在110年你跟原文會已經提出了你們都沒有這些數據告訴我們啊是 這個數據我們有我們立刻再提供那為什麼今天不提出來呢我先在這邊講如果你們之前在現有的制度都做不好我是堅決你們要再提出這些預算的啦檢討一下原文會的營運情形"},{"start":590.345,"end":603.554,"text":"然後,原文會,你們的營運情形你們只講發揮守護台灣多元文化價值的媒體影響力然後正是原文會發展數位媒體的目標你們這次沒有提原文會整體的營運樣貌欸你覺得現在很好了嗎?"},{"start":608.141,"end":630.595,"text":"請問一下董事長,你們怎麼樣跟原語會怎麼樣在原文、原民台的或者是廣播裡面來增加我們現在原語會很清楚我們現在不叫羅馬拼音,我就講一個最簡單的事不叫羅馬拼音,它叫原住民文字,你們做了什麼樣的宣傳廣告?你們在所有的現在既有的能夠露出來的這邊有教育了社會大眾嗎?"},{"start":632.264,"end":659.678,"text":"很顯然很顯然你們並沒有做得很好所以原民會主委副主委是您知道原民會除了在臺北總部有電視台之外我現在在因為議題太多了齁有電視總部電視台廣播台之外還有三個地方有設置原民台的新聞中心嗎有有在台東有好請問一下中部有新聞中心對不對南部有新聞中心對不對台東也有東部有新聞中心對不對是是是"},{"start":660.678,"end":679.051,"text":"現在已經是5G的時代了網速和雲端科技非常發達了傳送影片速度也非常快所以我們必要再設計所謂的地方中心嗎是不是應該要整體檢討了而且我還聽說有非常多的中心現在是養老院所以請問副主委原民會你們清楚知道有這個三個這個中心它的執行力怎麼樣"},{"start":689.195,"end":706.069,"text":"你們在既有的所有的要制度給制度、要錢給錢全部都給你們了然後你們今天來的報告都看不到你們的這些檢討的東西耶一直要錢、一直要計劃然後接著下來我們下年度就要編預算啦你覺得原住民立法委員可以做你們的後盾嗎?"},{"start":716.918,"end":739.89,"text":"我們是不是在了解一下目前請問一下簡單的說明 委員會董事長為什麼報告書看不到總部還有三個地方的說明還有數據是難道我還要再排一個專案報告嗎還是呢在一個專案報告裡面你們就可以把你們現在所做的事情全部講清楚把數據提出來然後未來還有什麼經濟還有你們必須要檢討的部分你今天的報告書不應該是這樣子嗎"},{"start":741.732,"end":753.72,"text":"我再補充跟委員做報告就是我們三個中心最主要是能夠就近對部落的新聞去做cover我知道現在已經是5G時代了你覺得還需要這幾個中心嗎還需要這幾個中心嗎那現在這幾個中心它的執行力怎麼樣好不好"},{"start":760.704,"end":766.028,"text":"那未來還有一個臺北的喔你們現在有四個中心喔然後你們要錢給錢要人給人但是你們最基層的員工的權益你們最基層的員工的權益就我知道還沒有勞動部的最新的薪資喔你們是不是要報告"},{"start":782.6,"end":791.213,"text":"你們是不是要報告一下我不是說搬遷的我說以既有的最基礎的員工的權益你們都還沒有照顧到所以"},{"start":792.281,"end":818.575,"text":"我希望今天我講了非常多的原文會不管是5G未來的時代或者是現在多媒體的不管是你們的營運的部分或者是為了要搬遷的部分有很多的問題所以我希望中府主委跟原語會也好原文會也好一定要針對這一次搬遷大樓之後我們還有哪一些要精進要檢討的部分"},{"start":820.069,"end":847.266,"text":"不是花了17億就兩手一攤然後什麼也都不檢討了所以我請原文會兩週之內也請原民會還有原文會你們再整理出最好的書面報告還有你們的各項數據還有規劃否則的話身為一個原住民的立法委員從最早的電視台的成立然後離開公共電視然後現在我們有一個專屬自己的基金會不管是原文會不管是原民會"},{"start":848.487,"end":849.688,"text":"謝謝高津找我的質詢那本席"}]}},{"id":"152429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734920dfc5244807813a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4ddd502cc2602e8e7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:33:06 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t":27.059,"end":44.278,"text":"然後在隔年我們發現我們跟歐洲的進展也非常的快所以在我們看到的是2021年不管是歐洲議會通過的報告書有關COVID-19或者2021年歐洲外交委員會"},{"start":45.799,"end":64.837,"text":"大概是第一次那麼高票通過臺歐盟政治關係及合作臺灣跟歐盟的政治關係及合作的報告及修正提案2021年還有歐洲議會通過臺歐這個臺灣歐盟政治關係及合作報告書等等那在"},{"start":66.479,"end":83.714,"text":"今年初,歐洲議會還通過《共同外交及安全政策》、《共同安全及防禦政策》兩個決議案關心著中國升高台海危機,片面用武力改變現狀。這個都是台歐之間正向的發展。"},{"start":84.375,"end":112.397,"text":"那今天我們談到的是習近平到歐洲的訪問坦白講一次的訪問看不出什麼大的改變特別是在法國各說各話他拜訪塞爾維亞跟匈牙利本來就是親中的國家反而是他沒有去義大利因為一帶一路可能生變他原來友好的國家縮小了他能去的地方減少了這個是從拜訪的形式上但本席比較關心的是在"},{"start":114.401,"end":117.03,"text":"今年歐盟的輪值國是匈牙利"},{"start":118.516,"end":146.775,"text":"唯一的隱憂在這裡也就是說習近平最近訪歐那不管是拜訪的國家的質跟量談話的內容看起來不若以往以前他在中東歐那時候講幾加幾啊就是26加1還多少加1忘記了就是把整個中東歐的國家加上中國產生一個極大的影響力那現在那一些氛圍呢都已經逆轉中國成了歐盟報告書裡面的威脅者"},{"start":148.116,"end":173.29,"text":"他們還特別注意到北極那邊來自中國的可能威脅所以本期今天第一個問題要請教的是匈牙利會輪值主席國那這個輪值對於台灣跟歐盟的進展跟發展有沒有什麼影響特別是在我們今年里存有提到我們預計想要簽訂經貿或投資協定這個在今年初"},{"start":177.847,"end":193.014,"text":"李存提到說臺歐洽簽經貿或投資協定這個是在今年1、2月的時候提到的所以請問市長有關信用壓力的部分你們怎麼評估這個可不可以請市長幫我回答一下市長請說是"},{"start":196.496,"end":220.718,"text":"匈牙利是今年下半年擔任歐盟部長理事會的輪值主席但是因為今年6月份會有歐洲議會的選舉新的歐盟的執委會也必須要在9月、10月才會成立因此其實匈牙利的輪值主席所可以造成的影響在今年下半年是相當受限的他就輪這半年嗎?對因為他們的輪值主席有什麼權力?"},{"start":222.097,"end":244.272,"text":"林主席其實最大的權力是他的議程的排序但是因為今年下半年歐洲的政治情勢的變遷所以我們認為說當然還是有他的權力但是因為歐洲的執委會跟議會都在重組過程當中今年我們大概站在台灣我們一個海島型的國家我們要特別注意周邊局勢的變化"},{"start":244.992,"end":265.697,"text":"日本有可能進行改選不管是6月或9月美國總統大選那歐盟的執委會還有歐洲議會在改選這一些都牽動著地緣政治甚至於獨裁國家用認知作戰去介入這些國家選舉都是我們要注意的所以我們還是回到我們今天的焦點就是說臺歐"},{"start":266.917,"end":288.782,"text":"我相信外交部在過去這兩三年應該有感受到臺歐的關係是大幅的改善特別在中歐因為東歐國家不喜歡被人家稱為東歐了他們就中歐國家所以目前你們評估休亞利這個輪值主席剛好遇到歐盟在改選執委會在改組所以這半年的輪值不會影響到agenda的設定你們判斷是這樣子嗎"},{"start":289.95,"end":314.217,"text":"因為新的執委會,歐盟的立法權是分享的那新的執委會形成之後會有新的執委會的agenda所以真正會主導未來幾年歐洲的這個政局的發展應該是下一屆執委會那你們有關注這些選舉的有沒有可能結構性的翻轉或改變目前看起來應該人民黨團在議會還是會佔多數所以民主派會比較多"},{"start":315.757,"end":328.284,"text":"基本上就是現在的權力結構不會有太大的改變有關這個臺歐洽簽經貿或投資協定這個事情是一個努力的方向還是有具體的進度"},{"start":331.075,"end":351.042,"text":"過去歐盟的回應曾經對我們的雙邊投資協定有正面的回應但是後來也失去了動能因此我們現在主要是要重新倡議恰遷比照我們跟美國的21世紀貿易協議失去動能的原因是什麼美國的21世紀貿易倡議有點像BTA"},{"start":353.723,"end":380.122,"text":"還有英國因為歐盟也是一個大的經濟體特別英國已經加入CPTPP所以歐盟的動作當然會影響到各國跟台灣的經貿你剛才講說原來有談到這個事情後來失去動能原因是什麼原因是因為歐中之間的全面投資協議因為有些議員提倡有關於新疆的人權問題種族滅絕等等的被中國制裁"},{"start":380.862,"end":381.222,"text":"副局長,我先講題目啦"},{"start":401.007,"end":415.195,"text":"最近有英國國防部所屬的智庫叫RUSI我不知道你有沒有注意到這個消息那這個是英國國防部官方的智庫他的副所長這個Jonathan他特別提到說"},{"start":416.656,"end":444.769,"text":"中國最近這半年到9個月左右的時間大量的購買黃金他指的是他央行就是說他們提高他們黃金囤積黃金的準備量那他裡面這個是英國國防支部提到說這個是不是因應台海可能的衝突或者南海可能的衝突那中國呢要將來因應西方國家經濟制裁的一個手段那管局有沒有注意到這個報告"},{"start":447.405,"end":468.115,"text":"有那他講的內容你們怎麼評估就是說中國其實長期持有黃金儲備量大概都在全球第6那前年的話是2100多噸到今年增加到2264噸所以他增加了儲備量的數額那這個增加呢"},{"start":469.156,"end":483.332,"text":"當然這是英國國防智庫提到的可能是因應他可能會有衝突或者在台海會冒進他先提早準備起來未來西方國家對他經濟制裁的時候他的經濟可以維穩我們國安局怎麼評估他們為什麼囤積黃金"},{"start":486.146,"end":499.293,"text":"這個跟國際局勢應該有關係就是有一些動盪的因素存在那一方面也是大陸的經濟的狀況可能不是那麼的理想人民會轉而搶購這個黃金"},{"start":504.257,"end":520.975,"text":"我在國安局的報告裡面好像沒有看到這一塊反而在英國的國防部的智庫看到這一塊就是說我們一般學總體經濟的當一個國家的政府、央行提高黃金的儲備量其實兩個主要原因一個是避險另外一個是信用"},{"start":521.536,"end":544.73,"text":"大概就這兩個作用必顯的話就是說在經濟不穩定不確定的時期強化對他經濟的穩定那中國又符合這個特色因為他們現在經濟不穩定很多大型的不動產公司跟金融的放貸公司都出問題第二個呢對國家貨幣求穩定就是避免大幅的往下走貶斯里蘭卡就一個例子他整個貨幣等於變廢紙"},{"start":546.371,"end":567.139,"text":"那中國央行提高這個黃金的儲備量看起來是要貨幣維穩也有可能另外一個是分散投資啊因為美金跟黃金是逆指標美金跌黃金就漲嘛所以這個是另外一個可能性那另外有一個就是作為避險當你有可能像俄羅斯"},{"start":567.739,"end":584.042,"text":"他知道他侵略烏克蘭有可能被經濟制裁可能被逐出Swift將來在國際貿易交換的時候黃金的儲備可以增加貿易夥伴的信心所以他會提高他的儲備量俄羅斯大概是排第五名中國現在是排第六名"},{"start":585.003,"end":597.864,"text":"那國安局有沒有去分析中國提高黃金儲備量的主要原因有沒有可能跟武力犯台有關還是他們國內經濟局勢下滑有關維穩有關你們的判斷是什麼"},{"start":598.892,"end":617.371,"text":"我們確定就是跟他國內的經濟下滑有很密切的關係至於委員：王定宇．跟臺海關於衝突．跟穩定他們大陸的目前的經濟狀況對於臺海的部分我們會密切的注意你們對臺海的評估是還不確定還是．我們在深入研究"},{"start":618.252,"end":639.747,"text":"英國這個是屬於國防部的半官方智庫我覺得他們評估了一些鎖本他的分析跟你的不一樣所以我們國安局作為我們國家最高的情報單位我覺得這個是一個很適合延期的題目因為它持續正在發生中那中國的民間的個體經濟大量的買黃金往國外跑那是另外一件事情所以到底是因為他們經濟維穩人民幣維穩"},{"start":642.21,"end":650.907,"text":"還是為將來可能發生衝突．被國際制裁來做準備．國安局有責任做好分析．是是是 是委員謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e1734b5b05c0703ae9c70ba70ea388d46c21f2d94006c6d412c4d53d5a73745c472315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:29:33 - 10:43:47","影片長度":"00:14:14","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-12"},"duration":854,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:43:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T10:29:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時29分）謝謝主席，我講慢一點，讓部長喘口氣。感謝主席，有請教育部潘文忠部長。"],["主席：我們請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。部長您好，我想還是要非常肯定您8年來對於教育政策推行所做的各種努力。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：今天機會很難得，也謝謝您還是來到這邊跟我們進行互動，今天的題目是大學國際招生跟優華語計畫，優華語計畫其實從110年以後就開始推動，但是本席辦公室請教育部提供優華語分年的執行成效，我們卻沒有辦法拿到，我們只能拿到112年度的成果。我們從今天的書面報告當中也可以看到，112年度的成果當中只提到了設置4所海外教學中心、建立校際合作、選送人員海外任教、補助外國學生來臺學習華語等等。在這邊我必須要說，完全沒有提到任何數位教學或是數位學習系統及平臺的建置，我們真的是活在2024年嗎？現在是民國113年，我們與各大學的華語推廣活動竟然還限於實體的交流，我們好像回到明朝時代的鄭和下西洋，不上船就沒有辦法跟人家交流，我們居然捨棄了全球42億的人口，隨時可以上網學華語的行動上網用戶，去年花了1.4億去設置這些實體的互動，優華語真的是要變成「憂」華語，憂心的憂。我想請教一下部長，優華語計畫有沒有運用數位工具來推廣華語教學？如果有，可不可以稍微說明一下情況跟成效？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，優華語計畫是繼過去的華語教育推動當中再去提，事實上它也有一定的基礎，在這個階段著力比較深的是優華語計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，部長，我必須打斷你，是比較多還是全部？到底有沒有數位？"],["潘部長文忠：目前是提供數位課程。"],["葛委員如鈞：有數位課程嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：有，有數位課程。"],["葛委員如鈞：有在報告裡面嗎？我們好像都沒有看到喔！"],["潘部長文忠：那報告是不是……有數位課程啊。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想我們非常重視虛實的整合。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：尤其在疫情之後，現在世界衛生組織還說未來可能還有新的傳染病，當然我們都不希望有，它的代號叫X疾病，所以境外學生的人數會隨著疫情浮動，但是我們現在已經進入數位的時代，真的很難想像我們的全球推廣計畫沒有更多！那你說有，我就相信你說有，雖然我們在報告裡面沒看到，真的沒看到！說有就有，但沒有更多人來使用，我們覺得這是需要檢討，希望部長回去以後跟同仁一起，用最後非常、非常寶貴的時間重新檢視優華語的計畫內容，做一些合適的資源配置。","接下來，不只華語，我們還要請教您關於雙語教育的問題，107年12月當時準總統賴清德先生時任行政院長，發表了以2030年為目標打造臺灣成為雙語國家的願景，要求全面啟動這樣的計畫，想請教一下部長，賴準總統所謂的雙語國家政策，指的是哪雙語？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個計畫的名稱後來有再做一些調整，不是用雙語國家，是國家雙語政策。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以這個新聞應該要下架、要改，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：不！我不知道這個……這個可能是新聞，目前是國家雙語政策，因為這個確實有一個討論後所定出來的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，當時的行政院長接下來變總統，希望所有的政策喊出來都是有憑有據，不要改來改去。我們來看，實際上有很多打臉的現象我們就不多說了。其實雙語指的是華語或英語，這一種說法是完全於法無據的，事實上我們完全沒有在法律中明定所謂的官方語言，依據國家語言發展法，我們的語言指的是臺灣固有族群使用的自然語言及臺灣手語，而且要做多語言之間的平衡、做一個多元的平衡。今天政府採取這樣的說法，說要雙語啊、要英語啊！難保會不會未來又有新的院長一聲令下，我們的雙語或多語政策又要換一個名字、又要360度大轉彎！","我們來看一下，我們先不管！既然已經執行了，從107年宣布執行到現在6、7年，我們為了達成雙語國家目標已經投入多少錢？我覺得這真的不只是指數成長，這是十倍、百倍的增長，從幾千萬到幾十億！我們已經投入100億，我們來看看現場的反應如何？根據親子天下雜誌，全臺有高達四成的公立國中小尚未實施雙語課程；22個縣市當中有八成縣市認為本國師資不足，31%的縣市認為中央經費補助不足；22%的人說第一線教師反對這個政策。當時賴清德院長的一句話，讓教育部6年狠砸超過百億來推行雙語政策，但是我們來看，再看喔！我們的全球英語能力指標只是略高於全球平均，但是在111個國家及地區當中屬於中間偏後。我們再看，這是你們的報告喔！2030雙語政策計畫是教育部推出的，關於可量化的經濟效益，我那時候就擦亮眼睛說我是不是看錯了？創造工作機會0，帶動公、民營企業投資0！這還不是全部，不只英語成績不見起色，根據去年公布2021臺灣參加第四屆國際閱讀素養調查，首度出現小四學生中文閱讀能力下滑的現象，這個真的是我們要看到的嗎？我們再來看，晶晶語現在已經變成交作業的常見狀況了。再來還有，過去9年的國中會考，每年都有近3,000到7,000名考生放棄寫國語的作文，考0分的人數遠遠超過滿級分的人數！","我這樣講完，其實還有啦，但我就不多說。我們花了6年一百多億喔，結果師資不足、經費不足、第一線教師反對；學生不僅英文能力不好、中文能力也下降；最糟糕的是，經濟效益是0！前兩天賴準總統甚至直指雙語政策負評如潮，是執行出問題，完全甩鍋教育部！現在在這邊給您一個機會，您認為雙語政策的失敗，教育部要負最大的責任嗎？這個說法是不是有點不太公平啊？您可以回應一下。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，現在都還在持續進行的過程，剛才……我要跟委員報告的是，我要講到一個很關鍵的，剛才委員引雜誌的報導，其實我對外也都做這樣的說明，教育部是穩健地在往前，不是讓縣市動輒……包含六都都是以有多少學校達成雙語學校，這個其實造成我們在執行上很大的誤失，所以跟委員報告，教育部審核的計畫一定是師資一體到位，所以才會有2030逐步地往前……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長，我時間有限啦，我直接幫你走……"],["潘部長文忠：但縣市走太快了，2年要讓縣市的學校通通是雙語學校……"],["葛委員如鈞：我幫你總結啦，還沒成功之前都說時間還不夠長，有人說有問題就說指標不對，如果是媒體報導就說那是媒體的報導！沒關係，我問你下一題。部長，您要卸任了，排除政治壓力，單純從您的良心、從一個教育工作者的心態角度來看，你認為政府的雙語政策還要繼續推行嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，要穩健推行，不是躁進啦，我要講的是這個。"],["葛委員如鈞：100億還不夠穩健是吧？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，你看前面的……"],["葛委員如鈞：從3,000萬、4,000萬直接跳10億以上，再來3、40億喔！"],["潘部長文忠：不是，委員，我一向務實推動教育工作。"],["葛委員如鈞：你經費躁進啊！成果怎麼沒有躁進呢？"],["潘部長文忠：那經費也是後面因為有前瞻計畫，能夠讓一些師資──我講的是外籍的師資能夠補充，這個部分並不是8年、10年通通以這個經費啦，所以我要跟……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長。我為什麼現在要跟您做這樣的互動？就是這個交換的時期很重要，如果您真的覺得有哪裡做得不夠好、哪裡需要檢討，或雙語政策真的應該要調整，真的希望您可以來瞭解一下。","接下來，我給您看一個影片，7年前的政策現在真的不一定要照樣推行，請您重新考慮。這是今年3月18號我們在談校園霸凌議題時部長您的回應，我們來看第一段影片，部長用流利的英語來回應喔！","（播放影片）"],["葛委員如鈞：這完全是AI直接將您講的話用您的聲音翻成英文，而且還對上了嘴型，這個現在還需要幾秒鐘的時間運算，接下來可以完全地即時運作，這是您本來說話的中文版。","（播放影片）"],["葛委員如鈞：我想大家可能中文聽很多了，我們再看一次英文，感覺一下。","（播放影片）"],["葛委員如鈞：我想連部長自己可能都很難相信，這個背景的音樂都還可以合成，我們來看一下，這還不是全部，現在Meta剛發表的Seamless Communication完全可以real time，我直接跟別人開會、直接跟別人講話、我教別人說話、我對談，100國以上的語言可以即時說出去給人家聽，我們現在還要雙什麼語？我們還要學一個英文搞到一百多億嗎？","我誠心地建議，未來在教導學生多種語言的時候，不要再侷限於英語，甚至應該要討論包含學習如何跟AI對話，用AI來說出100國以上的語言，同時我們也要呼籲繁中語料要全面開放，為什麼？AI可以幫助我們的學生講出100國的語言，我可以讓全球46億人口透過AI來學華語嘛！但是我們華語的資料完全不足啊！「母湯」聽不懂，我們講「視頻」、「音頻」，這些用語可能也都不是臺灣認定的華語！希望未來可以有更多資料全面開放給國科會TAIDE來使用，我們才能夠讓AI有完整的繁體中文化，用數位的工具讓華語在全球發揚光大。","最後，AI能夠帶來幫助，但也有可能侵害學生的權益，請教一下部長，目前教育部對於高中生使用AI工具製作學習歷程檔案或者備審資料的態度和立場是什麼？現在大家可能有很多的升學申請的過程在進行，老師在看資料，學生有沒有責任在底下標註我有使用AI？還是可以不用？我們的老師是不是就要全盤盡信呢？是完全禁止使用還是一定要進行揭露，有沒有什麼前提、有沒有什麼條件，您是不是現在趕快提出說明一下？是有條件地接受還是絕對不接受學生使用AI工具製作學習歷程檔案或備審資料？可不可以請您提出？"],["潘部長文忠：我說明一下，委員剛才講到以AI或數位科技協助語言的學習，我非常贊同，在上個禮拜我主持一個本國語言推動會，那裡頭各項族語、客語、中文的轉換，因為現在也在請剛才委員提到的幾個跨部會建語料庫，但是在善用，那一天廖元甫教授──不知道委員是否熟悉，他在提應用的時候，我完全對應剛才委員講的那個想法，現在也在持續進行，剛才委員提到學習歷程檔案等等，不要說學習歷程檔案，其他學校在做評鑑……"],["葛委員如鈞：申請資料。"],["潘部長文忠：這個部分，其實揭露是一件重要的事。"],["葛委員如鈞：要不要揭露很重要，但可以不要揭露嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：要揭露是一件重要的事，目前在大學，我相信我們幾個大學，柯召委在大學當時大家都知道這本來就是一個輔助的工具，但是就這個揭露本身來講，對於老師要去評價、要去做什麼，我認為是有……我看各大學目前也朝這個方式來做。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個問題很重要，不然變成老師只是在評哪一個學生比較有錢，可以用比較厲害的AI來做內容，哪一個學生比較會用AI來溝通，但是你們在相關的比賽要給人家記小過，這完全是沒有一個方針可言！希望教育部未來可以再更加公開明確的規範，讓學生跟家長可以依循，再次感謝主席也感謝部長您這八年來對於教育事業的付出，期待未來部長回歸民間以後，能夠跟我們一起繼續為國家教育政策奮鬥努力，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。本席先宣布在吳沛憶委員質詢完畢之後，先休息5分鐘，謝謝。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-12","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","范雲","麥玉珍","林倩綺","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","陳秀寳"],"page_start":385,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「大學推動國際招生及臺灣優華語計畫之執行成效及檢討」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00009"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.51784375,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.69846875,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.828468750000003,"end":29.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.35096875,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.00471875,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.024718750000005,"end":40.446593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.80784375,"end":59.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.81909375,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.46096875,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.32659375,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.57534375,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.01409375,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.97784375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.24346875,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.17534375,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.09471875,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.74846875,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.19534375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.62159375000002,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.36971875,"end":246.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.54534375000003,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.41846875000002,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.35784375000003,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.96534375,"end":362.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.83909375,"end":374.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.28471875,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.09221875000003,"end":458.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.11971875,"end":458.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.77784375000005,"end":496.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.13971875000004,"end":493.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.91159375,"end":494.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":494.02971875000003,"end":533.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.80971875,"end":525.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.7165937500001,"end":528.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.0447187500001,"end":551.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.3059687500001,"end":537.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.4934687500001,"end":586.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.0322187500001,"end":594.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.97596875,"end":595.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.3640937499999,"end":595.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.97159375,"end":611.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.5390937500001,"end":610.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.31096875,"end":611.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.3953437499999,"end":612.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.44596875,"end":611.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.42471875,"end":614.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":614.4328437500001,"end":614.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.4665937500001,"end":614.5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不是照鏡啦 我要講的是這個一百億還不夠照 還不 還是穩健是吧從三千萬四千萬直接跳十億以上 再來三四十億喔不是 委員我一向務實推動教育工作你經費照鏡啊 成果怎麼沒有照鏡呢"},{"start":538.268,"end":543.53,"text":"那經費也是後面因為有前瞻計畫能夠讓一些師資我講的是外籍的師資能夠補充這個部分並不是8年10年通通以這個經費好 謝謝部長我為什麼現在要跟您做這樣的互動是說這個交換的這個時期很重要如果您真的覺得哪裡做得不夠好哪裡需要檢討或雙語政策真的應該要調整"},{"start":566.937,"end":585.846,"text":"真的希望您可以來了解一下我們來看一下接下來我們給您看一個影片七年前的政策現在真的不一定要照樣推行請您重新考慮這今年3月18號我們在談校園霸凌的議題的時候部長您的回應我們來看第一段影片部長用流利的英語來回應"},{"start":587.006,"end":592.75,"text":"這完全是AI直接將您講的話用您的聲音翻成英文而且還對上了嘴形這個現在還需要幾秒鐘的時間運算接下來可以完全的即時運作大齡如果從國際的來講他有他的定義啦但孩子感受到的"},{"start":614.827,"end":627.057,"text":"我想大家可能中文聽很多我們來看一次英文感覺一下我想連部長自己可能都會很難相信這個背景的音樂都還可以合成回去我們來看一下這還不是全部現在META剛發表的SIMLESS COMMUNICATION完全可以RULE TIME"},{"start":637.606,"end":659.73,"text":"我直接跟別人開會直接跟別人講話我教別人說話我對談我一百國以上的語言可以即時的可以說出去給人家聽我們現在還要雙雙雙什麼語我們還要學一個英文搞到一百多億嗎我誠心的建議齁未來在教導學生多種語言的時候不要再侷限於英語甚至應該要討論包含學習如何跟AI對話"},{"start":662.671,"end":662.831,"text":"葛如鈞"},{"start":686.503,"end":701.949,"text":"這些用語可能也都不是臺灣認定的華語希望未來可以有更多的資料全面開放給國會會臺德來使用我們才能夠讓AI有完整的繁體的中文化用數位的工具讓華語在全球發揚光大最後謝謝主席給我時間AI能夠帶來幫助但是也有可能侵害學生的權益請教一下部長"},{"start":708.271,"end":735.516,"text":"目前教育部對於高中生使用AI工具製作學習歷程檔案或者備審資料的態度和立場是什麼現在大家可能有很多的升學升請的過程在進行老師在看資料學生有沒有責任在底下標註我有使用AI還是可以不用我們的老師是不是就要全盤盡信呢是完全禁止使用還是一定要進行揭露"},{"start":736.016,"end":747.689,"text":"有沒有什麼前提有沒有什麼條件您是不是現在趕快來提出說明一下是有條件的接受還是絕對不接受學生使用AI工具製作學習歷程檔案或備成資料可不可以請提出"},{"start":751.053,"end":756.017,"text":"委員剛才講到以AI或數位科技學足語言的學習我非常贊同在上個禮拜我主持我們一個本國語言推動會那個裡頭各項足語、客語、中文的轉換因為現在也就是在請剛才委員所提到的幾個話部會"},{"start":770.45,"end":771.11,"text":"要不要揭露很重要但可以不要揭露嗎"},{"start":795.043,"end":796.464,"text":"這個問題很重要不然變成老師只是在評哪一個學生比較有錢可以用比較厲害的AI來做內容"},{"start":819.534,"end":819.554,"text":"謝謝 謝謝兩位"},{"start":849.4,"end":853.291,"text":"本期先宣布我們在吳佩儀委員質詢完畢之後我們就先休息"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}