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第三十三條沒有意見的話我是覺得大家看一下現在手上也有一個"},{"start":2494.779,"end":2521.549,"text":"修正動議的版本大家看一下那麼如果大家看一下我們的這個修正動議的條文所以盧縣一委員所提的其餘條文我們先不予增訂或維持現行條文好不好盧委員可以嗎好謝謝您謝謝您好那我們現在就開始看一下修正動議的條文看一下就是請一下在場的委員有沒有要代表發言的"},{"start":2522.549,"end":2522.89,"text":"政天財委員發言"},{"start":2533.559,"end":2559.599,"text":"好 謝謝可能因為過去這個議題上比較沒有什麼機會來內政委員會但因為自然司法法制聯席我想趁這個機會很感謝我們召委邀集這個協商那我來說明一下因為過去的爭點大部分是放在以原住民在地方的地方層級的代表或議員他的人數要怎麼去計算那我在這裡首先表達我們"},{"start":2561.411,"end":2582.404,"text":"因為一向以來我們對於原住民的自治是完全支持成路過去有說到國中之國原住民的自治要完全尊重那因為台灣的因為歷史發展的原格我們有特別有所謂的三地鄉的設置那也因此呢我們的三地鄉又有分成"},{"start":2584.025,"end":2601.682,"text":"在我們的族群分部上呢又因為當時的憲法徵求條文有分成以前叫做3D三包、平地三包後來經過證明後叫3D原住民跟平地原住民但是事實上這些不同族群的不同類的原住民同胞他其實不是必然的住在所謂的3D或平地"},{"start":2602.423,"end":2604.444,"text":"三園平原分布居住範圍限制由於過去行政區設置只有三地鄉的行政區設置以至於居住在非三地鄉的平原同胞取得法律上特別保障"},{"start":2625.279,"end":2653.36,"text":"民意機關的席次可是呢同樣的山園的同胞就沒有因居住在山地鄉以外的山園同胞在法律上就漏了給他們同樣有居住地民意機關的席次那我們個人我們都支持這樣的概念那最好呢其實關於山園跟平原的區分還要繼續維持這個可以另案討論但是在屏東縣有一個特殊的情況因為屏東縣雖然已經有八個山地鄉"},{"start":2654.341,"end":2680.015,"text":"所以基本上山原同胞在八個山地鄉的一個參政權是得到保障的但是相對的他們在於非山地鄉的平原的參政權也是得到保障那現在我們的修法是說要把居住在山地鄉以外山原的這個同胞的參政權也加以保障這個部分我們覺得剛剛的原則我們都是競表同意"},{"start":2680.555,"end":2692.091,"text":"但是現在涉及到我們原來第三十三條他在第二款吧應該是第二款第二款關於縣市議員的總額他這裡面有一個部分其實也應該一併拿來審視"},{"start":2697.498,"end":2720.676,"text":"他這邊說到說在縣市人口一萬人以下是十一人二十萬人以下十九人以內四十萬人以下不能超過三十三八十萬以下四十三人一百六十萬以下不得超過五十七超過一百六十萬的不得超過六十那目前呢又講的是縣市議員當時的這樣一個人口的擬具你可以看得出來的規律性簡單講就是一萬再來就是二十萬"},{"start":2722.757,"end":2747.47,"text":"二十萬再翻倍就是四十萬四十萬再翻倍就是八十萬八十萬翻倍就是一百六十萬但是事實上整個台灣的人口成長到幾年前已經是生不如死了出生人口不如死亡人口了我們的人口成長已經停滯了那事實上按照這樣的一個方式除了六都之外目前彰化大概是落在八十萬以上一百六十萬以下但是呢獨獨在八十萬到四十萬之間就是從這個"},{"start":2749.52,"end":2749.54,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":2770.856,"end":2790.486,"text":"差一點點不達到八十萬都是從三十三人來計算那原來屏東縣的他現在在八十萬以上他是有四十三人那這個一算一來一往的原來的條文就差了十人所以如果依照我們原來的這樣的一個級距的規定屏東縣會是在從八十萬的級距掉到四十萬的級距當中"},{"start":2791.587,"end":2816.113,"text":"短少了10個人而跟其他60萬、50萬的縣市的人口的議會的規模是相當的那這樣的話恐怕比較粗略所以我這邊是希望說內政部可不可以一併我們在這個當中把這樣的人口的擬具一併做個思考因為少子化的結果排除了六都其實各縣市的人口都在往下掉"},{"start":2816.789,"end":2840.885,"text":"那哪一天張嬅她從這個不能不要這樣說好不要特別舉特別哪個縣市的例就是說這樣的人口級距的安排是不是要從原來的這樣的一個算數級數的差距等差級數的差距或者幾何級數的差距呢我們重新來做一個調整那以避免呢像屏東縣呢因為這一次"},{"start":2842.216,"end":2842.236,"text":"委員長"},{"start":2860.336,"end":2875.965,"text":"三元的三地鄉的每鄉一席的三元的議員席次保障還有一席平原的議員席次的保障在我們55席當中原住民的議員代表佔了9席那差不多將近六分之一"},{"start":2877.813,"end":2901.326,"text":"六分之一的人口數如果我們回推當然我們不希望以人口因為原住民的地方自治權不應該以人口規模為唯一依據這個有它的重要跟代表性但是呢這樣的情況之下長期以來在屏東地方上非原民區的這個選民他們已經強烈的感受到相對剝奪感那如果我們不去調整這個八十萬、四十萬的級距的話"},{"start":2901.986,"end":2926.359,"text":"那未來屏東縣的縣議員我們要少掉從原來的55那我們會調到成46會調到46那這46呢再扣掉原鄉的9席變成35那所以說在未來從57到46這樣的一個墜落的過程當中呢會無形中去放大了原住民"},{"start":2927.239,"end":2954.529,"text":"原住民民意代表的席次佔比那這會強烈的衝擊到當地的區域選民他們的認知那以至於會再推到目前我們幾位屏東縣級的原住民的委員包括盧委員包括我們的吳委員那麼我們又去主張說還要進而再去增加對於居住在非山地鄉的其他"},{"start":2955.429,"end":2978.456,"text":"三元的同胞的這個民意代表的保障名額會引起一個很大的反差跟誤解所以我在這裡懇請我們在思考的時候以屏東縣為例在我們同時去保障居住在非三地鄉的三元同胞的民意機關的保障名額的同時要事故的考量到不同的縣市他們在總體人口"},{"start":2980.637,"end":2992.585,"text":"衰減之下那麼產生的總體席次的減少的當中是不是也可以得到一併平衡的處理避免我們一方面希望保障我們這個原住民同胞的參政權卻讓非原住民同胞他們覺得他們參政的空間被壓縮這個絕對不是我們所熱見的"},{"start":3001.01,"end":3011.961,"text":"所以我希望說我們委員會在協商的時候能夠一併考量到第33條這個應該是第二項的第三第一幕"},{"start":3013.772,"end":3040.1,"text":"第二款第一幕那其中的縣市的第二款第一幕的當中的縣市人口的這個部分是不是可以請內政部一併提出一個方案適當的就調整避免當我們在保障原住民同胞的參政席次的同時造成了非原住民同胞他們的感覺的相對剝奪感那這個不只是有屏東可能我知道的雲林啊張雲林這些都要一併下去涉算那不去涉算的話我們不太好去抓"},{"start":3041.3,"end":3043.262,"text":"十萬二十萬四十萬八十萬"},{"start":3070.94,"end":3071.04,"text":"主席吳釗偉"},{"start":3088.959,"end":3117.623,"text":"好 蔡委你好我們各位同仁我們內政部同仁那其實我剛來聽宗教兵委員所提到的因為我們的試算的方法是不是有落差當然我們原住民我們都是非常的尊重我擔任立法委員以來主要是原住民的法案我都會全力的來支持但是支持之下因為剛才宗教兵所講的我們區域的"},{"start":3118.503,"end":3118.883,"text":"請鄭天財委員"},{"start":3147.97,"end":3175.91,"text":"今天這個召委所綜合這個大家的意見之後所提的修正動議的條文基本上就是去保障了這個像基隆市像這個彰化縣這些有山地原住民人口都超過1500甚至2000多人的都可以規範"},{"start":3177.071,"end":3199.123,"text":"那這樣的一個修正動議的條文基本上都已經沒有去都是額外外加了外加的就是不影響不影響7億的議員或者是代表的一個名額因為現行的地方制度法現行的現行的地方制度法他是一個"},{"start":3199.983,"end":3227.249,"text":"在這個總額內總額內之後就會影響所以這個部分我們今天所提的修正動議條文都不會影響到7億的議員或者是代表的名額這個是一個很重要的一個部分那至於剛才宗嘉斌宗嘉斌這個所提的這個意見是非常好的意見因為"},{"start":3229.37,"end":3244.692,"text":"確實是臺灣少子女化少子女化除了少子女化之外就另外就是遺跡都會期了遺跡都會期然後遺跡都會期的這個就光都會期也是"},{"start":3245.413,"end":3245.513,"text":"內政部檢討"},{"start":3264.71,"end":3283.328,"text":"趕快去檢討這個總額就是說7億的7億的因為整個人口數的一個增減確實是我們這個不是今天才發生的少子女化的一個這個歧視是一個不斷的一個在減少"},{"start":3285.23,"end":3286.011,"text":"而這次針對原住民的部分"},{"start":3300.942,"end":3306.067,"text":"二、委員盧縣一等16人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3324.566,"end":3329.733,"text":"這個部分到底應該要怎麼樣的一個數字數字數字數據這應該要去內政部要去趕快的去檢討以上"},{"start":3337.855,"end":3366.118,"text":"好我們現在請蘇喬惠委員好謝謝主席那我想我就跟著鄭委員的後面發言我沒有要挑戰鄭委員我只是因為鄭委員的談話我想到了上一次我們在審查的過程當中其實王美惠王委員就有提出這樣子的一個問題那不曉得內政部有沒有已經要回答了因為我覺得我們今天在做這個第二次討論的時候其實就是應該要有內政部的這個資料意思就是說"},{"start":3367.199,"end":3384.018,"text":"對,我們都支持在有原名的地方尤其是山園的地方如果他就算是非原鄉但是他就是有我們的山園的同胞族人住在那裡那我們是不是應該要給他一個席次讓他有機會發聲對,我想這是大家比較多人的共識是在這一塊"},{"start":3384.819,"end":3403.504,"text":"可是後面牽涉到數字的部分怎麼處理的部分的時候就開始有分歧的原因是我們始終沒有拿到一個標準的數字那鄭委員上一次就已經說我們其實都傾向於外加名額所以不會影響現在目前區域的對不對可是上次王美惠委員就是在這裡的時候講到啦"},{"start":3404.224,"end":3408.467,"text":"大家都是做這個行業的人都知道我們除了自己能夠當選的這個席次之外每一個議會裡面的組成成員原住民的席次多少席佔比多少和這個來自每個地區不一樣的成分組成最後那個數字其實會影響的是議會的生態所以到底要怎麼調整其實每個議會每個縣市"},{"start":3432.245,"end":3444.611,"text":"只要他受到影響,那都是大事情,那個好像不是只是,我們上一次我記得上一次的結論就是說,那不是只有我們幾席立法委員坐在這裡講一講,把人家數字調一調,全國的選區選制就跟著改了。所以我們那時候是要求內政部要提出到底哪幾個縣市會受到影響,然後受影響的席次是多少,占比是多少,"},{"start":3457.918,"end":3470.454,"text":"你這個東西要拿出來我們才敢說噢好那這個東西可以出委員會嘛我記得是這樣不曉得我的印象跟大家是不是一樣我記得我們要的是這個剛好接在政委員後面講所以不是只有"},{"start":3471.633,"end":3471.673,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":3506.555,"end":3526.105,"text":"每次都會得到很多的回饋意見那就有點類似巧惠委員剛才所提的就是數字算不出來就很難具體的去告訴人家而且就算自己算得出來往往好像有時候也會被詬病說那個可能算法有誤"},{"start":3527.325,"end":3548.123,"text":"所以我這次又提出一個修正動議是基於我提這個版本的初衷就是要解決現在不合理的現況那什麼叫做不合理的現況就是有很多沒有山地鄉的這一些縣市他是選不出山地原住民議員"},{"start":3549.364,"end":3562.355,"text":"那也有很多沒有山地鄉的這些地方的鄉鎮市他是選不出我們山地的代表所以我要講的初衷就是要解決現行法規這種不合理的現象但是我們還是希望能夠幫我們的版本"},{"start":3568.82,"end":3574.165,"text":"去精算出一個數字出來好讓我們在面對未來整個社會的一個反彈的時候還是接納的時候我們能夠有所本所以我再簡單的說明那我第二款第一幕呢就是剛才中交兵委員鄭天財委員都有提到人口急劇的問題因為我有收集到非常多的意見"},{"start":3593.924,"end":3609.9,"text":"我是希望說我在這邊有修一個就是人口在八十改成七十萬人以下者不得超過四十三人就是把八改成七那為什麼會這樣子因為好幾個縣包括台東、雲林都會面臨這個問題"},{"start":3613.884,"end":3627.452,"text":"對那第二個部分就是也是在這個第一幕的最後我加一個有離島鄉且該鄉人口在兩千五百人以上者與本幕總額內應有該鄉選出之現役人名額其實這個人字是沒差跟現行一樣沒差只是說希望把它寫清楚那未來能夠有一個依據"},{"start":3638.939,"end":3660.054,"text":"另外在第二幕的部分原來的這個我們送委員會審查通過的這個版本已經有處理過的就是平地原住民一千五百人以上應有平地原住民選出的議員有三地原住民人口一千五百人以上有三地原住民選出的議員這個是委員會送出的版本"},{"start":3663.696,"end":3685.33,"text":"第二要處理的是有三地鄉者應有三地原住民選出之縣議員名額其實這個也是沒差因為這個就是縣型的然後第三要真正要處理的就是無三地鄉之縣市三地原住民平地原住民均"},{"start":3686.13,"end":3709.792,"text":"未達一千五百人因我們發現還是有這種漏網之語但有山地原住民及平地原住民人口合計在一千五百人以上者應有山地原住民或平地原住民選出之一元名額因為我們盤點之後發現還是有這樣的漏網之語所以再用修正動議的方式再把它補足那再來就是第三款"},{"start":3710.433,"end":3733.889,"text":"第二幕第二幕的部分是要去處理鄉鎮市的代表所以我這邊還是有增加就是原來一樣的就是鄉鎮市有平地原住民人口在1500人以上者於前幕總額內應有平地原住民選出之鄉鎮市民代表名額然後另外就是再增加山地鄉"},{"start":3735.09,"end":3747.961,"text":"以外之鄉鎮市有3地原住民人口在1500人以上者於前目總額內應由3地原住民選出之鄉鎮市民代表名額然後做以上的說明謝謝"},{"start":3749.414,"end":3776.401,"text":"好謝謝吳立華委員的說明我們現在請內政部來針對鍾嘉斌委員所疑慮的部分是不是來做一些說明那吳委員的修正動議其實跟我們現在提的修正動議是這個這個這個我們待會再來討論好不好吼那我們先針對那個鍾嘉斌委員的部分來請我們的內政部次長"},{"start":3777.541,"end":3778.562,"text":"灰顏名鄉三地原住民"},{"start":3797.042,"end":3809.541,"text":"我們要保障他的參政權但是這個保障的另外又涉及到三十三條的這個極具的問題那就像屏東你有可能在這個下一次的這個選舉會少掉12席"},{"start":3812.237,"end":3841.17,"text":"這一部分的確有檢討那個局局的這個空間了那因為如果這樣一檢的話那像台東可能下下次他會檢掉11席的這個席次那大概有這個會影響到區域的部分這一部分另外一個是這樣的影響可能會跟整個政治生態可能也會有影響也會有影響那我只針對這一部分還是還有其他要"},{"start":3842.41,"end":3844.312,"text":"主席我可以補充說明嗎?我剛剛漏掉說明齁"},{"start":3857.89,"end":3882.88,"text":"議員的部分我是外加那個上次跟委員會版本我一開始版本都是外加那只是因為這個鄉鎮市代表的部分我有去仔細詢問過那個內政部專業的幾個人的意見我後來才發現說原來設計不同那如果是說用外加我也支持啦只是說那個變異會變得很大所以我就看大家的意見 謝謝這個我也說明一下"},{"start":3887.201,"end":3910.774,"text":"內加跟外加,如果假設是內涵,如果假設內涵的話,保障了3D原住民內涵的話,你就有可能會減少了區域的部分。那這樣區域部分統不統一,這個有理嗎?代表,我講代表,我講代表的部分。所以內涵跟外加是不一樣,你會影響到他的氣質,所以代表,而且代表又按那個比例,人口比例來算。"},{"start":3911.892,"end":3924.974,"text":"所以可能假設你是外加的話又跟他的比例有關係又跟他有關係所以你保障除非就跟好像保障婦女名額一樣反正我內行我就保障你三體驗住院這一部分"},{"start":3925.728,"end":3951.85,"text":"因為我們還這一部分沒有跟代表大家去談過如果因為保障了山地原住民的一千五可以選出這個代表的話那區域就一定會減少就相對會減少這個大概我提醒一下那外加的部分可能因為比例關係他也會減少席次他會減少我們跟他統計一下大概減少一到五席一到五席"},{"start":3953.783,"end":3963.701,"text":"市長這樣好不好你現在手上這資料是不是請我們議事人員去影印一下然後呢給大家看一下然後我們趁這個機會大家也討論一下休息一下好不好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":3966.004,"end":3966.224,"text":"主席"},{"start":4693.326,"end":4693.607,"text":"財政部財政部"},{"start":4785.791,"end":4815.309,"text":"市長市長不好意思麻煩來一下好不好你覺得這個兩個修正東西的條文齁是哪一個才哪一個比較適當好不好你來發那個發表你的意見我們現在是三年平衡不加了嘛齁不把它加在一起嘛阿比較單純的是用那個高金委員那個沒有關係用那個版本來來調比較單純因為那個你已經改了那比較清楚可以啊"},{"start":4818.98,"end":4833.695,"text":"剛才次長講的沒有錯這高金委員提的這個修正動議他會他的體系就是跟直轄市直轄市議員一樣所以這個部分"},{"start":4837.682,"end":4857.539,"text":"因為你那個部分還有總額內的問題就總額內對 一樣啊代表而已也是會影響到那個像竹東他們也會意見我剛剛有講了你要外交我也沒意見那個只是因為他的計算方式不同設計方式不同我們為了要計交的話"},{"start":4860.584,"end":4883.867,"text":"為了要計較的話,我們是不是先以昭偉的修正動議,看怎麼再更好,還是用這樣的方式啦。用這樣的方式,這樣還會計較啦。那這樣好,好不好。那那個昭偉,我大概就是,目前那個你們修正動議版本,目前我比較需要增加的就是那個擬具。"},{"start":4884.628,"end":4886.149,"text":"第二款第一幕因為他們都同意"},{"start":4905.245,"end":4905.565,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4937.777,"end":4939.858,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4971.826,"end":4997.444,"text":"因為剛才中委員他們疑慮的那個因為也很多人跟我反映所以我後來才改說我們為了解除疑慮就是已經有三立香的就是應有三立香的就應有然後另外寫無三立香的就怎麼樣這樣就可能就不會有那個他們擔心那個報多無三立香對因為我們本來就是要解決無三立香的嘛"},{"start":4998.972,"end":5001.876,"text":"韓國三地鄉三地原住民平原居民團"},{"start":5004.471,"end":5024.865,"text":"你這個意思是什麼意思有山地鄉的就是有山地的選出的縣議員嘛對不對然後沒有山地鄉的山地原住民跟平地原住民都沒有打1500人然後這個豆點這個我不要了這個我放棄了因為你們的那個修正東西已經拿掉我要跟著拿掉了"},{"start":5034.807,"end":5059.923,"text":"我們就聚在一起齁,非常緊密的討論啦好,那因為還是,還是要讓他們可以收音啦,用他們收音啦我還是要提醒一下齁,剛剛主席,感謝主席有請內政部去算了以屏東跟台東為例好,我們先處理那個總人口的擬具一萬、十萬、二十萬、四十萬、八十萬對對對,我們幾個部分來切"},{"start":5065.853,"end":5093.847,"text":"第二款第一幕那我先說因為目前修正這是您的版本嘛但是修正動議當中它是分成一萬、二十萬、四十萬、八十萬、一百六十萬這是原來的擬具這個擬具都是兩倍兩倍在跳那我們以這個擬具來看的話為什麼我覺得說要先請內政部回去重新按照現在各縣市的人口的趨勢"},{"start":5096.993,"end":5113.668,"text":"議員 對 那算出來我就跟大家說明嘛算出來如果是按照這個擬具那會產生什麼結果那我們更改的擬具會產生什麼結果這是兩件就是說我們要做這兩個狀況的推演那我先以現在擬具普通的情況之下下一屆屏東縣的議員總數會從55席調成43席"},{"start":5118.832,"end":5142.644,"text":"那原來五十五席當中原住民的議員原來是九席在五十五席當中佔九席佔了將近六分之一落那如果調到了四十三席原住民可能不是九席是十席因為按照我們後面的修正我們會再增加非三鄉地區的三員他如果住在"},{"start":5143.424,"end":5143.444,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5160.746,"end":5180.189,"text":"三元的住在飛山立鄉的也應該保障嘛那這種情況之下屏東的原住民議員會從九席再增加一席就是十席那原來的五十五席現在的限制原住民是佔了九席佔了六分之一落未來屏東會剩下四十三席原住民會變成十席也是將近四分之一會將近四分之一"},{"start":5180.689,"end":5207.845,"text":"那我覺得外加的精神是沒有錯因為我們要保障原住民同胞不管在什麼地方居住他都有同等的參政權但是呢這個參政權因為我們牽起自由所以我們可看到到的是剛剛政委員也講了現在不管是三原平原住在三很多在三地鄉的都會往都市集中那我以屏東來講屏東市跟潮州鎮都是非三地鄉但是這幾年來"},{"start":5209.446,"end":5219.925,"text":"原住民同胞的人口是在成長的是在成長的所以我們現在準時精神保障他們到了非三地鄉的參政權那麼三元的部分一定要再補充"},{"start":5221.526,"end":5245.864,"text":"有補充嗎?那這是對的但是呢你考量到整個屏東縣人口的消長他是下跌的總席是從55降到43可是原住民議員的比例是上升的那我是覺得我們不要忽略了大家一般民眾在認知上會一個錯覺那我們不希望為了保障原住民的平等參政權而造成了大家"},{"start":5246.476,"end":5246.496,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5271.093,"end":5291.147,"text":"現在會掉到四十幾?四十三會掉到四十三那如果不是掉到四十三那麼這個時候的原住民的保障他的佔比不會造成那麼大的懸殊的一個失落感或者是一個相對剝奪感那麼我們比較好在地方上共同去推不要忘了我們都是代表整個全中華民國的無名無數席"},{"start":5293.53,"end":5302.852,"text":"五十五現在是九席以後四十三席會變成十席我都贊成這個但是不要太強調那個比例"},{"start":5308.511,"end":5314.054,"text":"我覺得我濃縮他的話一下啦我濃縮他的話一下我按照現在內政部給的這個人口數的話以這個現在113年4月的人口結構屏東縣113年4月的人口結構來講的話那現在的算是原住民族群3人56000加上平原是5000所以大概是6萬人"},{"start":5336.164,"end":5354.213,"text":"區域區域的意思就是非原民吧73萬73萬所以是73比6對吧用人口數來講的話是73比6那現在的現在的數字是9比55嗎原住民其實是9比55"},{"start":5358.328,"end":5362.11,"text":"那我可不可以再補充一個既然是這樣子齁"},{"start":5389.927,"end":5407.152,"text":"為什麼要不要一個人?為什麼?要去談比喻就好。為什麼?不是談感情的問題。因為我們就講立委好了。對不對?立委啊,我們有六席。比喻也很高啊。所以真的不要講。我講給大家聽。"},{"start":5413.723,"end":5439.197,"text":"當時226個議員的時候,原住民是80,砍一半的時候,我們沒有送砍一半,所以這個比例不要太巧妙了,所以我就不用麥克風,但是那個局勢確實是,因為少子女化我們的理由確實啊,少子女化然後移居都會起,"},{"start":5439.69,"end":5442.894,"text":"沒有,因為我想回答你的問題"},{"start":5447.541,"end":5470.237,"text":"我這樣講我也是認為不要去擴張比例但是我只是說明說我們擔心我們在地方會面對這樣的質疑所以我們希望透過擬具來緩和這樣的質疑我為了要說明一下我強調這個一個比例其實是因為民間會有這樣的質疑但是我們可以透過擬具來減緩這樣的一個比例差距的一種相對剝奪感"},{"start":5474.551,"end":5478.833,"text":"第二,因為歷史的嚴格,我們過去沒有對於鄉鎮市民代表的部分去處理,那現在既然縣議員的部分有處理到非山地門鄉的參政權,"},{"start":5494.315,"end":5522.963,"text":"那當然我們在鄉鎮民事代表也會遇到類似的情況這同一個邏輯嘛那只是說我們如果要延伸來處理鄉鎮市民代表的這個原住民的參政權的保障的時候我是建議還要再區分三元跟平元嗎就是我們可不可以把它當作是一個總和的數額來算那這當然因為在先元的部分我們現在本來就有非三地鄉的平元的保障那我們希望"},{"start":5523.743,"end":5524.023,"text":"委員盧縣一等16人擬具"},{"start":5545.912,"end":5568.017,"text":"反而是要保障那個非原民的平地人住在山地鄉的反而是有保障那現在非山地鄉的原住民要怎麼去保障他的參政權是不是我們也就可以用一個比較簡單劃分的方式來處理我們處理到縣議員這一層級再往下推到鄉鎮市民代表會很複雜因為你會變成非常的零碎化"},{"start":5568.757,"end":5585.517,"text":"所以我們才會說會發生五委員說的這個這個兩邊都不到一千五的併起來好過我們就給他一席這個我支持因為你才能完整的保障到不管他是山園還是平原他在非山地鄉他要參與鄉鎮市民代表的選舉他的參政權這個我是支持"},{"start":5585.937,"end":5613.729,"text":"但是可不可以我們思考一下除了剛剛縣市人口的擬具的調整之外我們也考量到在地方民意代表的部分因為他不是中央民代地方民意代表的部分其實並沒有法律的剛性規定去分山園跟平原我們只有規定山地鄉跟非山地鄉那山地鄉也沒有規定說平原不能去住啊非山地鄉也沒有規定山園不能去住啊那我們可不可以純粹的就山地鄉已經有保障了"},{"start":5614.569,"end":5614.589,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5636.638,"end":5655.131,"text":"草州鎮還好但是因為草州鎮他鄰近的都是山地鄉所以理論上他搬來的都是山園那如果我們山園單獨一個項目他一定會過關可是他的平原就不過關了因為屏東也有平原可是住在草州鎮的平原不多可是他們不能參加什麼不能參加"},{"start":5656.132,"end":5660.115,"text":"目前我有算過大概目前超過1500的那個山園的門口就是竹東鎮、埔里鎮、屏東市、潮州鎮跟內浦鄉就只有這五個地區要解決現在的代表的問題"},{"start":5686.525,"end":5712.794,"text":"只有這五個地區對所以我是覺得如果你想到全國的話當然很難去去要統一我們保障保障三年這個都OK啦我想這個大家都有共識但是保障三年之後會不會影響到人家區域的這個我們要去考量剛剛我們講的比例"},{"start":5715.714,"end":5720.035,"text":"因為我想大家都很有共識,我們其實只是為了要解決現況的不合理"},{"start":5739.78,"end":5760.023,"text":"希望那些該有的就要選出來所以我們還去修這些文字但是我一直在聽那個中委員講所以我其實也有聽到這樣的聲音所以我就特別再加了我再重述一次我們已經解決的就是說縣市有平地原住民人口在一千五百人以上則應有平地原住民議員"},{"start":5761.224,"end":5784.401,"text":"有3D原住民人口1500人應有3D原住民因緣這個我們都已經修了嘛就是讓它修出來了嘛就是連那種沒有3D箱的都可以有了嘛但是為了要避免疑慮所以我說我們是不是可以再加一個文字有3D箱者應有3D原住民選出之縣議員名額就讓那些已經像有3D箱的就是保持現況"},{"start":5787.286,"end":5787.626,"text":"委員盧縣一等16人擬具．請審議"},{"start":5816.545,"end":5816.865,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5841.258,"end":5868.748,"text":"第一、第二、第二款的那個有三地鄉者應有三地原住民選出的縣議員名額然後後面再放立法委員那個三地原住民、平地原住民均未達一千五百人但有三地原住民及平地原住民人口合計在一千五百人以上者應有三地原住民或平地原住民選出的議員名額好不好把它放到這裡"},{"start":5870.111,"end":5887.056,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5887.643,"end":5892.525,"text":"二、委員盧縣一等16人分別擬具:「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":5904.73,"end":5932.408,"text":"好,你核對一下,你看一下但平地原住民或山地原住民人口數未達一千五百人且原住民人口在一千五百人以上者應有原住民顯出之一言明耳一樣的意思不是,兩個加起來的意思用詞"},{"start":5936.092,"end":5936.112,"text":"軍衛達1500人"},{"start":5947.372,"end":5950.434,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":5977.352,"end":5977.672,"text":"主席"},{"start":6016.28,"end":6021.485,"text":"好看一下大家看一下這上面的文字這樣是最後的這個內政部內政部"},{"start":6036.93,"end":6037.651,"text":"只有雲林而已"},{"start":6064.813,"end":6065.133,"text":"主席"},{"start":6089.709,"end":6093.392,"text":"主席是不是可以齁 因為我覺得齁能不能完整的給我們看 因為我還是要強調一下齁 其實"},{"start":6113.849,"end":6136.844,"text":"這是嚴格造成的歷史的嚴格造成先有保障飛山立鄉的平原現在擴及到飛山立鄉的山原可是這樣造成的結果我們的加法是層層疊疊所以我們都只有修正前面一個的不足但是總體來講系統上來講實況上來講我同意剛剛次長所說的目前如果我們按照我剛剛那個一個理念可能現在"},{"start":6138.561,"end":6139.202,"text":"蕭薇文人"},{"start":6155.984,"end":6181.996,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝昭文真的很用心排這個案那確實大家都坐在這裡坐這麼久而且都不是開玩笑的都很認真在想這樣的問題就是要解決問題那現在看起來也融成一個版本了那我是不是可以請求我們再給內政部按照這個版本去算一次然後看看到底有哪些台灣的哪些地方哪些縣市哪些鄉鎮"},{"start":6183.557,"end":6196.522,"text":"本來有問題的是不是因為這個條文會被解決然後有沒有因為這個條文衍生了什麼新的問題之類之類是不是過一次過一次之後那主席你再開一次嘛又開這個委員會的這種協調也可以啊你再開一次"},{"start":6200.203,"end":6223.933,"text":"那我們真的都說大家都看過了這樣子我們要過我也才比較有感這樣子我是不是覺得不然這樣我真的覺得這是很重大的事情這不是這樣講一講就我是覺得我們不要好心辦壞事啦這樣子你看你看你看你看"},{"start":6228.268,"end":6228.428,"text":"主席"},{"start":6243.666,"end":6260.286,"text":"好 我們看一下齁 其實齁 其實這應該要有點分 分項啦就是說 有3D箱的跟無3D箱的分列為兩具啦有3D箱的因有3D原住民選出之縣議員再來換一行 不是 不是要換一行啦"},{"start":6262.529,"end":6281.561,"text":"就要分層分行分具書寫啦這一句寫完了寫吾山地鄉者那才是去講後面的山源跟平原怎麼樣兩邊都加起來為他一千五要有一個保障啦這樣才能夠把它區分開來啦我那個原來的版本所以我們做完整一點告訴我們分析給你們"},{"start":6301.125,"end":6319.217,"text":"我覺得我們的文字盡量精簡一點然後就是把那個精神放進去就可以了這個精神其實就是說你要在平地地區保障山地原住民的參政權這是第一個要被保障的"},{"start":6320.398,"end":6320.418,"text":"還沒"},{"start":6348.127,"end":6348.307,"text":"對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,那樣寫就對了。"},{"start":6372.833,"end":6384.9,"text":"沒有蛋了啦沒有蛋了主席就用說精神講的讓他提讓他提我們提方案啦你們提方案啦我覺得剛剛主席講的很清楚就好不好用因為我覺得法律上條例上"},{"start":6406.071,"end":6415.996,"text":"所以如果說吳委員不在意的話我們就請這個內政部調一個文字出來好不好最重要的一個精神啦"},{"start":6418.561,"end":6419.483,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6437.094,"end":6440.375,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6455.879,"end":6485.879,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6486.359,"end":6498.262,"text":"一定要嗎?一定要啊,因為十三條就算了要不然我們很難跟人家解釋離島的在總和離島的也是在總和在總和對好,贊成,我覺得這樣對,他已經花掉了"},{"start":6520.801,"end":6521.841,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6537.306,"end":6538.727,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6593.768,"end":6594.789,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6614.96,"end":6641.792,"text":"我剛講到的就是在這個平地原住民地區要保障山地原住民他的參政權的部分要被保障到然後如果在平地原住民地區在都會區裡面人口一千五以上然後平地原住民跟山地原住民都沒有達到一千五以上怎麼樣讓他們也產生一席這個代表或議員好不好"},{"start":6642.492,"end":6644.534,"text":"建議內政部以今天大家的比較往前的共識的條文然後再更精進一下"},{"start":6665.461,"end":6690.001,"text":"今天已經有出來了這些然後你再看一下再從這邊的文字裡面更修訂更精簡的部分那最重要的是精神一定要保障到好不好再來就是那個擬具的部分擬具的部分我們再請內政部來提供這個更精確的數字讓我們今天協商的委員們再有一個"},{"start":6693.137,"end":6693.297,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6728.653,"end":6730.534,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15914","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db43dc8870a7b167e27f712e23582779963be8d109af184be41b8a1fa26d1886e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T12:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：【協商主題一】(一)國民黨黨團擬具「電業法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「電業法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。【協商主題二】(一)行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等17人、委員賴士葆等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等16人、國民黨黨團、委員郭國文等19人分別擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」、委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員邱議瑩等29人分別擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」、委員張智倫等19人、委員王世堅等16人分別擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:44:20+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024051403","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T13:04:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":1180,"委員發言時間":"12:44:20 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所以我們要好好去討論這個問題 那個鄭天財委員最後一個發言 謝謝之所以要修這個電業法 是因為過去的八年"},{"start":823.054,"end":843.675,"text":"經濟部中央主管機關所辦理的電價審議會沒有按照標準作業程序也沒有按照機制來去處理為什麼呢這一次電價要調漲你們的理由都是惡無戰爭什麼什麼什麼"},{"start":844.793,"end":853.782,"text":"那可不是今年發生的,那是好幾年前就開始了,那為什麼去年沒有呢?"},{"start":855.826,"end":879.198,"text":"為什麽去年沒有?就是有政治考量太有政治考量這是第一個所以還是要回歸到民意第二個因為我們的台電是國營事業它造成了很多的這些虧損也是因為相關的政策政策的問題"},{"start":880.439,"end":898.745,"text":"委員賴花後來用什麼呢?那就是用國庫啊。國庫去撥補。那就是人民的納稅錢去撥補。所以到底要用什麼樣的方式?所以還是要回到民意。民意機關。所以這個部分是確實是需要去修正。還是要回到民意機關。以上。"},{"start":900.496,"end":902.177,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":925.233,"end":930.458,"text":"第二案是中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案。那麼"},{"start":933.854,"end":955.787,"text":"本案經過我們經濟委員會在113年5月2日舉行第十一屆第一會期第十次全體委員會進行審查,由本席擔任召委。當時的版本有行政院的版本、委員的提案以及修正動議,總共有十三個版本。那麼我們委員會審查的結論是保留條文兩條,其中是第36條之二、36條之四,"},{"start":963.411,"end":978.942,"text":"保留條文需交黨團協商。其餘的條文我們均照行政院提案通過。另外我們有鄭天財委員提案在113年5月10日立法院第十一屆第一會期第十三次院會決定淨富二讀與相關提案並案協商。"},{"start":983.925,"end":990.549,"text":"егодня會議將由鄭委員提案並案協商。國民黨團剛剛也有提修正動議,我們也一併並案來討論。所以現在我們先來介紹今天與會的委員有鄭天財委員以及機關單位。機關單位我們有"},{"start":1006.878,"end":1020.169,"text":"經濟部次長陳正琦還有法制羅司長以及中小及新創企業署署長何書長還有國防會副主委高副主委"},{"start":1022.193,"end":1022.813,"text":"財政部理事長財政部副稅署宋署長"},{"start":1040.351,"end":1058.415,"text":"勞動部勞動力發展署的中副署長、還有身心障礙及特定對象的何副組長以及訓練發展組的游副組長以及就業服務組專門委員林專門委員法務部林參事"},{"start":1064.969,"end":1082.003,"text":"另外我們還有主計總署現在主計總署由李專盲委員代表出席好那現在呢我們針對中小企業保留的兩條行政部門還有說明嗎?已經"},{"start":1087.06,"end":1110.94,"text":"你們希望是這個好那各位同仁我們鄭天財委員你的案子也並案討論那因為現場的我們其他政黨的委員沒有在現場所以我們這個案子呢沒有辦法達成共識所以我們還是本案保留送院會處理本案保留送院會處理好那再來"},{"start":1116.124,"end":1121.393,"text":"好,那我們今天協商兩岸軍送用位處理到此結束,謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"15913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15913","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68543dc8870a7b167e20abd554f0848f3fb3be8d109af184be4565297247d725e425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告併案審查委員王育敏等19人、委員蘇清泉等28人及國民黨黨團分別擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。二、逕付二讀：委員謝衣鳯等21人、委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」等2案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:31:50+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024051401","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T13:06:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":5650,"委員發言時間":"11:31:50 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topic阿現在我們的目標點子放0.95以後就放1阿不就好了我們從來不敢把目標定到1阿用1阿,阿目前還抓到1"},{"start":1743.047,"end":1752.584,"text":"對阿,那天我有打電話給那個小律師阿,因為我知道你想要多開放一點,請稍微幫我寫個隱藏版。"},{"start":1754.475,"end":1755.295,"text":"好啊好啊"},{"start":1784.384,"end":1802.884,"text":"因為現在外面也是都在反映我們如果現在弄的話,人團會草變凶,整個案子會爛掉那所以先可能到行政院以後大家再做,因為它是一個政策決定所以我可能會反而決將我想得到就是"},{"start":1807.108,"end":1807.308,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":1826.898,"end":1826.918,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":1855.811,"end":1883.276,"text":"可是我沒有對外講,因為我有一點...我怕有時候丟出去,怕會出事讓部長猜嘛,反正說已經預告完了嘛,現在只是要重新申請反正等一下長不一樣子而已那外界有不同聲音嗎?我已經處理掉了,我先把外界的聲音分兩種嘛那天已經會議開完了,一個就是他講的有道理我們稍微修了一下他講的沒道理,然後他屬於國家政策決定的我把它擺在另外一邊,隱藏版就是我說的那一種"},{"start":1885.1,"end":1885.261,"text":"新的團隊"},{"start":1892.917,"end":1918.275,"text":"對,那到時候麵包頭反正約好之間因為還有各部會啊像國發會的主委啊什麼他們可能也有他們的想法他們可能請出來治理產業其實要修的不是民法是各自法的這個用途各自法管在一起因為歐盟都刊了不開哪有不限不許的民法還有問題這是內閣人都來治理產業界他們有想法"},{"start":1945.218,"end":1952.941,"text":"他可以一案子綁三個附帶去?幾個怎麼可以?幾個怎麼可以?"},{"start":1956.534,"end":1956.594,"text":"主席"},{"start":1986.514,"end":1986.914,"text":"嗯嗯,好。"},{"start":2027.813,"end":2028.574,"text":"委員王育敏等19人、委員蘇清泉等28人"},{"start":2057.705,"end":2058.825,"text":"那先介紹在場的委員及官員那在場的委員有陳昭之委員"},{"start":2087.611,"end":2111.694,"text":"王振旭委員、盧秀芳委員、盧憲一委員、蘇清泉委員。我們介紹今天出席的官員有衛生福利部周志浩次長"},{"start":2113.226,"end":2142.47,"text":"社會保險司劉玉娟司長中央健康保險署石崇良署長國家發展委員會人力發展處謝嘉怡處長行政院主席總處公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員基金預算處黃厚吉專門委員好謝謝大家那大家可以繼續用餐我們邊開會那現在就"},{"start":2143.251,"end":2146.112,"text":"開始協商。我們在委員會其實已經有通過三案,就是審查完略的案子。那今天有逕付二讀的兩個案子。那針對這總共五案呢,這個我們看主管機關經過這一段時間,你們回去之後,那有沒有"},{"start":2169.326,"end":2186.273,"text":"沈思到底在醫界的這些訴求當中那我們衛福部要怎麼樣來調整可以呼應醫界我們這些第一線的醫護人員真的非常的辛苦那醫院的經營也不是很容易"},{"start":2187.059,"end":2214.962,"text":"那我們幾位委員提出來包括國民黨黨團提出來希望調高健保點子就是希望可以不要讓醫事人員付出的心力就是被打折或是我們這一些醫事服務被打折那所以經過這一段時間不曉得衛福部這邊是不是有調整了一些做法那我們是不是請次長可以跟大家先說明一下好不好來請謝謝"},{"start":2219.364,"end":2240.996,"text":"主席及各位委員好那其實在這段時間的話我們也在思考這無論是上次的審查會或者是委員所辦的公聽會各界的一些的意見那的確我們到目前為止的話但的確還是在處理的過程當中這裡面覺得說如果照這幾個版本所提出來的這些的方案的時候在我們執行上是會有"},{"start":2242.176,"end":2255.746,"text":"﹚立法院朝野黨團審查委員王育敏等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團審查委員王育敏等21人、委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團審查委員王育敏等21人分別擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團審查委員王育敏等21人分別擬具:「全"},{"start":2264.872,"end":2267.513,"text":"次長我先問一下就是說因為我們都知道賴總統他有提出健康台灣非常重要的一個政見"},{"start":2282.113,"end":2283.115,"text":"〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉"},{"start":2295.74,"end":2324.402,"text":"是不是要有一些增加財務的一些方案那這些到底有沒有在談啊就是我的意思就是說其實下禮拜賴總統就上任了那是健康論壇是健康論壇還是說健康論壇他會變成是一個上位的政策的引領要不然這個大家都賴總統要上任了那他自己的政見會不會變成是政策這個是大家關注的那這個到底目前的進度為何大家其實也很好奇"},{"start":2326.089,"end":2351.357,"text":"委員報告一下那目前所提出來這些的這是健康台灣等等這些的看法的部分那現在已經是分交有相關的單位相關的司署已經交代相關的司署那針對這部分我們在政策上面有哪些是不是真的都可以執行然後也許需要的資源大概是哪一些現在都還在盤點當中這工作沒有暫緩下來"},{"start":2353.865,"end":2354.245,"text":"那行政組織總署呢?有沒有?"},{"start":2385.017,"end":2407.203,"text":"基金預算處有沒有來講一下那個黃專門委員呢那一樣其實如同剛剛衛福部有提的啦你們接到指令嗎沒有,政策上並沒有還沒有指示啦沒有下達到基金預算處這裡只有衛福部有接收到你們要PASS出去啊用麥克風啦"},{"start":2410.264,"end":2411.104,"text":"維福部研議階段"},{"start":2429.898,"end":2457.132,"text":"行政組紀總署、基金預算處都沒有嗎?都還沒有接我的意思就是說只有你們在研議啦其他部會其實都還在看你們研議什麼在配合啦這裡面的話部分我們現在各司署現在在做研議那裡面的需要的經費多少我們必須要自內部再做一個討論之後如果真的需要他們幫忙的時候還會找他們來一起來做討論好了解好來那我們是不是請委員來表示一下意見"},{"start":2458.775,"end":2460.817,"text":"黃秀芳委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2476.656,"end":2476.896,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2519.518,"end":2535.667,"text":"這張就是曾經的大扁硬領我們做的聚會他們都K出來了就是說這兩年我們的平均移民已經落下來了"},{"start":2536.618,"end":2541.403,"text":"我要向邵芳珠、趙薇說,我們這兩年平均移民檢查有兩回,"},{"start":2544.259,"end":2569.867,"text":"這兩回合的原因是什麼?當然我們這個健保的政策是什麼全世界最好啦那為什麼全世界最好?就是我們健保署像石崇良署長那麼優秀的他對健保跟對每一家醫院了若指掌哪一家醫院他要修理他他都很清楚但是他不會所以每個醫院每一個醫療院所看到石崇良就聞風上膽"},{"start":2573.956,"end":2596.158,"text":"我告訴你,我們的醫療就是可敬性、公平性、又爽、但是要讓你知道的是,我們真的減了,減兩回,我告訴你這個又往下掉喔,我今天要去跟內政部要2023年的我們平均移民,我跟大家保證一定再往下掉,為什麼?因為我們的政府頭都不足。"},{"start":2597.776,"end":2620.823,"text":"很方便、很便宜,那是累積在醫護人員的假象。王俊旭委員,大家也要愛人的癌症不夠錢。這事實的但是,他都不敢買,因為他都說不出來,因為他心裡就這樣,但是他就接著動,所以政策不配合又不行。所以我跟大家報告這個事情很嚴肅。"},{"start":2622.383,"end":2646.761,"text":"癌症品質的下降、糖尿病等等的照顧、死亡率都增加,這個不能諱言。所以這一張,掉了將近兩歲,我們比韓國、日本、香港、澳門、新加坡都還差。這個你再不關心,我們現在的平均移民是剩下79.84,等於10年前的平均壽命。"},{"start":2648.114,"end":2648.395,"text":"二、一直罵我們說"},{"start":2655.524,"end":2655.544,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":2686.525,"end":2693.049,"text":"國演殘喘的錢就這麼簡單你不能在這十幾年來用總額預算丟給一屆把財務風險全部丟給一屆"},{"start":2697.253,"end":2697.614,"text":"委員王育敏"},{"start":2718.158,"end":2736.396,"text":"這樣再下去已經受不了,所以現在為什麼會那麼大的反彈?因為疫情之後,所有的年輕人,不管意識相關的,連醫師,他們自己都感覺,他們沒有像我們以前靠褲子那樣,那個時鐘娘在做主任醫師的時候,喉嚨喉嚨啪,他也都痛痛。"},{"start":2741.055,"end":2761.605,"text":"我這樣放霸凌的時候,我也會點點,因為我們就想說一個理想,一個報復,我跟你們報告,五十幾年次以後的,你不用想了,六十幾年次、七十幾年次,現在醫生來講的都講什麼你知道,講待遇、講休假、講稅金。"},{"start":2762.745,"end":2766.246,"text":"昨天來找我的是一個新加坡的醫師他說新加坡我說你們不錯啊那個檢驗師放射師"},{"start":2792.571,"end":2803.24,"text":"我們這裡一個月六萬、七萬,在新加坡的放射技師就十四萬、十五萬。他們也在怕說人家去找他們,真的去找他們,因為護署找不到,找不到他們都去找馬來西亞及菲律賓會有公營業的。"},{"start":2813.639,"end":2829.343,"text":"結果現在,去年找不到人,他說跑去哪裡了,他說跑去美國去了,跑去加拿大去了,想嘛,他那時候在那邊管,一日到那,上班試用期兩個月就給他立卡,就給他簽居留,我們是在搶人才,我們現在人才是在流失,"},{"start":2835.731,"end":2862.905,"text":"我們現在有外勞在台灣的有七十幾萬人我們台灣有專業技術的人跟台灣人在外面不要講台勞不好聽啦齁在外面幫人家奉獻的八十幾萬人我們出去的是技術人才我們邀進來的是勞工補充人力這是對國家是不是有隱憂齁我想像市長、像石崇良署長那麼優秀石崇良的頭髮很好耶"},{"start":2864.181,"end":2870.183,"text":"主席處長、主席長、朱哲銘每天你問什麼資料,他都無法解釋,我不會跟你說,反正他會湊一些資料出來給你,所以跟他問成白問。"},{"start":2891.172,"end":2907.345,"text":"跟大家報告,政府應該出36%,這個時俗長我有跟他談過,去年,去年如果36%的話,政府短少937億,所以政府你那個36%你都要報一下,來,我唸一下。"},{"start":2911.741,"end":2926.354,"text":"一一二年九百三十七億一一一年八百八十三億一一零年七百多億往前都是五百、五百多、五百多怕死人啊,只有七十年,我們也穿過了所以政府導出不足,都拚了以改,只用一個總裁"},{"start":2929.603,"end":2943.074,"text":"協商料表表福利所以被依改的人大家就是穿上內套衝衝那些咕嚕咕嗦的巧立民幕胡亂說廢啦或者是送在停車場啦美食啦等等然後智慧的市場非常的雜亂我們常常聽"},{"start":2946.534,"end":2966.919,"text":"鄉親、村民在跟我幹架,說去到哪裡買煮肥幾大堆,去到哪裡開個骨殼幾大堆,這都是扭曲啦,這個是很嚴重的扭曲,如果不解決,這個問題會更嚴重。我當一個,當過理事長、當過前理事長等等,我真的很不忍心看到這樣。"},{"start":2968.021,"end":2980.45,"text":"有保險的人有私人保險的人他他負得起沒有私人保險的人一般的底層的人怎麼辦啊所以來我這裡有三點我念一念我們修法的重點"},{"start":2982.544,"end":3000.097,"text":"總額目標制 總額目標限下一點議員 超額部分打折幾付 折數協商 超額打折後公務預算來補或者政府投注要過 醫療驗手不會不刻意充量 超額就打折打了一大堆"},{"start":3001.448,"end":3028.335,"text":"第二個就是說你修法報告你說要說什麼零點九五要補七百億什麼一千一塊錢要補一千一百億等等一千一百億阿你那三十六趴那樣,你那補補的就有阿政府你自己要出的都不要出阿所以政府吃老百姓,像我們那個政府在騙騙我的消防員騙我們的警察一樣所以不要都堆堆有意見"},{"start":3029.656,"end":3040.026,"text":"好不好這個是我們跟大家報告的那你政府在健保法裡面你要承擔的健康、臺灣講到政府要投出38%我心裡想說你36%你還保有就你該搞啊"},{"start":3044.221,"end":3060.883,"text":"所以在這裡跟大家報告所以今天有個結果不要說一直在討論討論討論就是擺爛嘛對不對那你三個總統候選人你自己都說一點一口我看到一個民視的截圖他說"},{"start":3062.004,"end":3087.141,"text":"賴清德總統說,一點、一點一言。我是說,他是說不對的嗎?還是我聽不對的?一點、一點一言。我以為是口氣的。所以我想,對不對我不知道。所以我們今天希望我們行政單位,好好地來推出好的對策。已經到非改革不行。以上。"},{"start":3088.055,"end":3088.457,"text":"陳昭芝委員"},{"start":3096.672,"end":3117.086,"text":"謝謝主席今天是沒有看到部長看到次長跟署長那個署長那個部長以前沒有承認但是你必須這個署長要承認我陳昭之在健保署誕生那一天受聘到目前為止我的聘書都還在經歷四位總統大概超過十位的署長所以我參與到一個相當的程度"},{"start":3121.008,"end":3146.526,"text":"所以我想我今天就用我的很專業理解的角度來談這個問題健保開辦將近30年了大概差一年就30年第一個10年其實大家都很滿意都很happy包括這個民眾跟這個醫療提供者因為第一年我們大家比較沒有這個相對的壓力而且早期的設計的時候也沒有想到後來醫學這麼進步造成很多高規格高標準的一些"},{"start":3147.126,"end":3147.666,"text":"﹚立法院朝野黨團協商．委員"},{"start":3176.471,"end":3176.491,"text":"委員響鐘"},{"start":3192.603,"end":3192.723,"text":"韓國是8%贏我們。"},{"start":3213.393,"end":3227.084,"text":"你用算7.5韓國是9.7你怎麼樣在OECD國家都是在末段辦所以從頭到尾就是投資不足投資不足我知道也絕對不是署長或次長這邊能決定不過我們還是要講那這是因為這個6.1的投資目前大概從6.1的投資裡面只有50%出頭是放在健保所以大概根據會議的變動大概3%到3.5%左右是放在健保"},{"start":3240.174,"end":3261.06,"text":"那健保因為百分之百的民眾都被涵蓋到了那數字叫99.7那事實上就是說只要不連手續大家都涵蓋到所以老實說3.5%涵蓋百分之百的國民這本身是奇蹟台灣創造了奇蹟這個是事實那但是第三件事情因為我們包山包海的"},{"start":3261.966,"end":3268.031,"text":"：立法院朝野黨團報告併案審查委員王育敏等19人、委員蘇清泉等28人及國民黨團分別擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":3285.385,"end":3289.29,"text":"韓國5年存活率是70%,我們存60%,最後台灣人不要再罵韓國了,健康指標都輸了,還有什麼好輸,新生兒死亡率也是最高的。"},{"start":3301.563,"end":3329.455,"text":"那這個平均移密剛剛蘇委員講過啦那你什麼糖尿病的合併症的這個死亡率這個人家好幾倍日本韓國好幾倍啊你現在不是只有這個錢在這個血汗跟這個奇蹟你這連醫療健康指標都輸這個是攤下來看所以我請政府官員不要再談我們什麼很高很高在什麼地方很高很高因為民眾的在知識不對等下他還是留在一個留在一個這個"},{"start":3330.775,"end":3331.536,"text":"﹚立法院朝野黨團報告併案審查委員"},{"start":3346.678,"end":3355.264,"text":"大病有缺口,大病保的不好,這個是健保的精神嗎?這個是社會健保的精神嗎?這是我們要的健保嗎?有問題了嘛,那為什麼會這樣?就是當初你什麼病都含瓜,你什麼小病症的藥也都含瓜,撐不住了,那攬子撐不住啊,現在進來藥都是很昂貴的啊,因為醫學進步太快,要精準,要再生醫療,當然這樣還沒有納入這個幾副。"},{"start":3372.935,"end":3391.549,"text":"那然後那個進步的標靶等等等等都很昂貴動不動一年就是上百萬啊啊你當然撐不住啊你也沒有退場機制啊所以基本上我就覺得說我可能是目前唯一有提出附帶決議的我知道觀光要求本身是會有擔憂的因為這個回到老路叫做論量濟酬0.7、0.8、0.9大家就在拚拚點數啊"},{"start":3397.674,"end":3418.253,"text":"那你到一點會不會充減數?絕對會!絕對會!那所以我們要配套措施嘛!所以我就是說給大家這個合理配套措施但是這個措施也許要請健保署、衛福部來研議但是最後一定要更高級的行政院院長或是總統來支持嘛!因為事實上整個投資是不夠的那剛剛蘇偉也講到36%那天我講的時候薛部長不懂"},{"start":3422.737,"end":3427.7,"text":"但是署長你一定懂那個36%的計算方法有人認為根本還不到36%這個當然可以討論也說到底支出變動還有我一直強調公務因為我們一般人是是這個保費自己付30嘛然後雇主60嘛然後是政府是10嘛可是這個國家就把那個公務員的那60"},{"start":3446.169,"end":3467.854,"text":"對那個那個僱主60也算作在這個整個投資大概36裡面那這樣當然算法我們可以討論啊所以也有人覺得說嗯政府的部分36還是不足哦那不足你是不是要補到足所以我們不反對這一次如果點子提高這個民眾的保費也要調整用看什麼方式來調整但是政府是不是已經附足36%法定的36%我們還是有疑問"},{"start":3470.635,"end":3493.742,"text":"所以我後來就是提出了幾項很重要的一個我覺得是配套措施啦當然我們看到醫療品質的這個問題那當然第一個專業服務位太低了嘛你這個門診看了200多塊連洗頭都不足都輸給洗頭嘛所以你基本上專業服務一直不足所以你逼迫的醫院跟醫師沒有辦法正正當當好好看病人好好正正當當賺錢"},{"start":3495.302,"end":3513.684,"text":"所以他必須想盡辦法,你說自費也罷,自費是近年來才出現的。那你以藥養醫也是事實啊,這不能否認的。所以我是主張說,各個醫院如果有盈餘,要有一定的比率,拿來做環境,職場環境的改善,去工作附和。"},{"start":3514.124,"end":3528.38,"text":"阿或者就是幫護理人員等等阿就是這些人的薪酬的這個改善這是第一個嘛你專業服務要做個調整然後這個是不是有一定的比率我們也是跟企業界要求一樣我們民眾黨有提出這個法嘛那第二個齁"},{"start":3529.241,"end":3555.779,"text":"我知道會可能會讓很多基層的意識會有點擔憂但是只是要你違法幾付30年啊其實大家都很自私啊也有很多人大家都受惠啊所以沒有人去按鈴申告按鈴申告就是健保署就是健保就是違法幾付啊那你這個只是要這個其實有人都說才15到20億誒陳委員你不要那麼計較不是這樣的因為這個只是要不給付的時候民眾就可能說啊你就我去看完病那又要自己去買藥"},{"start":3556.84,"end":3576.651,"text":"那我乾脆就有時候有時候他就可以自己在社區藥局不要忘記了還有一群專業人員現在分數也很高的專業人員守在這個社區藥局只要這個我想署長最熟悉你只要少一次看病對不對一天到晚再推銷我們現在是18次嘛一年看病18次嘛啊你只要再少一次少多少點375億點啊"},{"start":3579.612,"end":3588.961,"text":"民眾只要少一兩次,那你省下多少錢?所以只是真的早早要退出市場。那要價差的部分,很多人都以為不好意思,我還是必須為他們講話。很多人以為藥廠賺了很多錢。我跟你們講,在我的價值觀裡面,每個行業都是對等的。"},{"start":3594.181,"end":3611.597,"text":"今天要有醫師看病今天要有健保署來管理可是也要有人去做研發就是說每一個人貢獻都一樣當然我們要合理的來看怎麼樣努力來議價這是不爭的事實那你這個要價差我一個月前問薛部長他說400億第二個月再問他才隔一個月問他說變500億"},{"start":3614.38,"end":3628.239,"text":"那署長你偷偷在咬耳朵說可能五百億可是我問到的比五百億更多曾經也衝破六百億啊那現在有可能要價整個掉下來那你的百分比當然就可能掉一點啦事實上還是很多啊戰率還是很高還是要有一個合理的要價差的範圍嘛"},{"start":3629.921,"end":3658.605,"text":"你還是要處理這件事嘛你像日本人就是到最後處理這個問題嘛來一個猛將然後小將然後再一個大的將然後再平穩下來你有一個合理的要加差而且要加差這個大家小醫院都很辛苦啊因為他溢價能力沒有大醫院高啊不輸給醫學中心啊對啊你這個這個就是大家都知道那又都不處理那這次就勇敢的處理吧已經打破八年魔咒可以繼續執政啊對不對做了好還是有機會就是再一次魔咒都可能啊下個四年都有可能啊所以這個部分"},{"start":3659.085,"end":3659.405,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3680.404,"end":3695.191,"text":"所以我覺得你們要引進這個論質記酬計畫,把這個論質用品質的結果去擠附的這個方案丟出來。你丟出來你在全世界國家我們不是只有拚這個能夠熬得過啊,我們那個醫療指數不用翻回來嗎?不用逆轉嗎?"},{"start":3696.826,"end":3725.174,"text":"我們真的要繼續輸很多國家嗎?繼續得到末端班嗎?曾經是台灣最引以為豪的世界前幾名的名列前茅的這個醫療品質現在就都不是了不要再講了因為這個數字攤出來大家都知道啦所以我是希望說論執記仇的部分包括早期推動的DRG五級二中要不要再做包括那個奧康貝斯的bundle payment輸到你也知道我們也溝通過過去很多次你是不是說如果沒有辦法大量做你其實要有一些東西進來"},{"start":3726.254,"end":3726.474,"text":"：立法院首席"},{"start":3741.531,"end":3741.551,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":3771.531,"end":3771.551,"text":"〔議員發言〕"},{"start":3799.584,"end":3820.559,"text":"請把醫療分局的部分納入社區藥局好不好不要就是說在醫療機構他們是屬於醫療機構然後等到這個要做一些大家不管是重要的資源重新分配你也要把社區藥局納入嘛他們也是有能力照顧病人我自己在這個非處方藥的小組裡面擔任20年以上的委員我當主席超過5年"},{"start":3821.9,"end":3822.02,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3848.891,"end":3875.868,"text":"雖然部長不一樣啦但是我知道署長跟次長都留任嘛所以我們今天就是在講這個也恭喜你們啦齁然後也繼續大家也繼續期許啦齁那主席我們今天應該把總統找來才對因為這個問題真的很大也不是他們的肩膀現在朝野協商希望總統可以到立法院院會做國情報告而且同問同答那如果可以的話真的是總統應該要來"},{"start":3877.711,"end":3877.951,"text":"王正旭委員"},{"start":3895.622,"end":3909.674,"text":"謝謝主席現場還有兩位委員包括希望委員、趙志武委員剛剛那個我們蘇清泉委員一直要我說要表達我的立場還有我們衛福部的官員們"},{"start":3910.735,"end":3932.956,"text":"我想這個真的是一個非常重大的議題大家都可以確認因為我在上任之前我很高興有機會到國會來服務那我身為醫界的一部分我在上任之前我就去請教我們很多的部長、署長、前輩們他們如何去看待健保這個議題"},{"start":3934.958,"end":3960.857,"text":"每一個前任的部長跟署長他們說這個是非常非常重大的議題一定要改變至於如何改變大家一定要有好的機制來討論他們給我共同的一個鼓勵跟勸導就是這個樣子那我們現在是希望用最簡單的可能的方式來做這樣最大的改變當然在醫界非常非常的期待"},{"start":3961.938,"end":3984.286,"text":"因為醫界真的非常的委屈那我們也看到很多很多的困境那最近自從這個召委提出這個議程以後相對我們也召開了公聽會也召開了在三個禮拜有一個很大型的討論都一直在討論說那我們要怎麼改才是適當的"},{"start":3985.746,"end":4015.089,"text":"所以很快我們的這個內閣就會在520成立那同時要包括部長們就會面臨這些問題所以如果從治療這個包括所有醫療資源的這些籌設越多越好這個我都非常同意我也非常贊成那將來希望不同的黨派也針對能夠對醫療資源的挹注大家共同來努力來促成"},{"start":4015.99,"end":4030.465,"text":"那對於健保資源怎麼樣能夠投到打造健康台灣照顧民眾的部分這個是非常非常重大的議題如果可以的話可不可以讓我們的新內閣包括我們的衛福部長"},{"start":4031.546,"end":4055.594,"text":"在面對這些問題的時候有一個更全盤的處理之後來讓我們也能夠共同的來敦促甚至來要求他們做什麼樣的改變如何回應民眾的需求同時針對醫療單位尤其是醫療的這些辛苦的不管是醫師們、藥師們、護理師們各個職列們所面臨的問題一起來努力來解決"},{"start":4060.956,"end":4076.514,"text":"我認為這個樣子才能夠讓民眾的健康得到更大的保護的同時對醫界才是公平的所謂的醫界是包括各個職類的所有同業人員那我們也知道包括台大院長"},{"start":4077.395,"end":4094.256,"text":"他每一次談到醫療的困境的時候他都非常的擔心大型的醫療機構面臨的這麼大的困難怎麼樣去改善他的在做服務的同時可以讓民眾看得好這個就是品質的問題"},{"start":4095.057,"end":4109.113,"text":"那剛剛昭志委員也非常強烈的要求品質如何能夠變成是我們在做健康照護裡面很重要的一環那這個那麼多的議題我們需要有社會更多的"},{"start":4109.974,"end":4130.828,"text":"不管是專家不管是學者不管是業者包括我們身為醫師團體裡面的議員的同時也如何能夠聽到民眾的需求民眾他的訴求其實真的非常非常的簡單就是你把我的健康照顧好就可以了"},{"start":4131.869,"end":4149.356,"text":"那我們也知道我們要照顧他的健康需要各方面的資源那這個資源如何能夠透過大家的努力一起來戳戳這是目前我們也知道困難度非常非常的多可是有困難並不代表就沒有辦法解決"},{"start":4150.817,"end":4177.677,"text":"我們要找到好的路徑來解決才能夠真的去達到這樣的目標如果我們用的方法萬一萬一沒有辦法真的可以很順利的達到這樣的結果的時候會不會是另外一些困難的開始那剛剛蘇清泉委員也了解說癌症的照護真的是醫療非常的不足"},{"start":4178.858,"end":4184.682,"text":"這是因為因為醫療進步的結果我們把它統稱為財務獨幸"},{"start":4187.79,"end":4210.123,"text":"財務獨行的意思就是說當一個癌症病人需要接受醫療的時候他會面臨各方面的挑戰跟困難尤其針對癌症的用藥開發非常的快以前不敢想像的用藥都一一的面臨讓病人有機會使用的時候"},{"start":4210.763,"end":4236.168,"text":"可是因為癌症毒性他會因為這些藥物的費用非常的昂貴導致在使用上有一些困難這個在美國在世界各國都是同樣的問題那我們如何來面對這個財與毒性所以我當初在擔任社會團體的負責人的時候我們就透過這樣的一些訴求來了解"},{"start":4237.128,"end":4264.595,"text":"建保如何能夠有效的去改善他的財務的各方面包括如何開源、如何節流那如何用社會的其他資源一起引進來照顧癌症的民眾那我相信這個不應該只是癌症民眾而已應該全台灣的民眾當他有醫療需求的時候都可以透過國家的力量共同來保護他們"},{"start":4265.955,"end":4266.055,"text":"主席"},{"start":4285.389,"end":4304.128,"text":"剛剛包括也問到我們的主計總處還有我們的相關單位有沒有配套措施的同時意思就是說我們必須要有更周延更完整的處理以後相關單位配合的話他才知道未來如果我們要面對更多的困難我們如何來面對這樣的挑戰"},{"start":4305.789,"end":4333.106,"text":"所以我們很期待能夠給新任的部長新任的院長有更好的面對這個問題包括讓各界都能夠提供更多的意見讓在解決這個困難的過程裡面可以更順利不要造成其他讓我們會擔心如果這個配套措施沒有經過大家共同的努力共同的討論的時候帶來的影響"},{"start":4335.487,"end":4356.082,"text":"不過我非常的贊同趕快趕快讓醫界能夠安下心來讓他們知道說未來的部會未來的部長如何能夠讓他們第一時間針對他們所需要的醫療資源是可以很快的讓他們很安心的繼續提供的醫療服務"},{"start":4358.163,"end":4358.624,"text":"這是以上我的意見 謝謝"},{"start":4385.996,"end":4387.477,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":4406.477,"end":4432.245,"text":"還有各位衛福部的官員大家好我也認同剛剛陳昭芝委員王振旭委員所提到的現在許多人引頸期盼這件事情已經過多久我現在跟王振旭委員補充一下2015年2016年蔡英文總統在競選的時候發布了這個競選宣言直接跳票她當時我直接把原文唸出來她說"},{"start":4434.346,"end":4450.829,"text":"我們要讓醫療服務的價格合理化我知道長年以來為了不讓健保倒下健保給付給各位的點值一直在打折我們感謝醫師護理們為守護國人的健康所付出的犧牲"},{"start":4451.69,"end":4472.159,"text":"未來我們也願意來檢討健保支付的標準表同時不會只顧及支出面的控制也會重視醫療需求面的問題我把原文再念一次讓大家回憶一下89年前他的競選政見結果現在大家不滿的是什麼是"},{"start":4472.619,"end":4473.199,"text":"﹚立法院朝野黨團報告"},{"start":4496.412,"end":4498.714,"text":"醫護人員、醫界的人員不是拿來讓你們開支票的因為前後任的總統一再的開健保點值的支票而且我們提出來的就是賴準總統講的1.1元還比我們國民黨講的多了0.1請問困難點到底在哪裡這就是賴準總統的政見啊"},{"start":4521.389,"end":4548.152,"text":"這是他跟他的健保改革全國專家會議召開之後提出來的啊然後呢當時三位總統候選人提出來之後薛部長說OK我們可以提出這個但是呢要經過修法好我們現在也要修法啦不是嗎就是這樣做我們也是遵照薛部長所講出來的他認為解放要透過修法我們現在不就是在修法嗎"},{"start":4550.293,"end":4553.077,"text":"：立法院朝野黨團報告併案審查委員王育敏等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等26人、委員楊瓔等26人分別擬具"},{"start":4567.681,"end":4579.116,"text":"蔣麗淳總統的意思是4年內可以達到1.1元我想所有全國的醫事人員沒有辦法等這個4年好嗎?他們"},{"start":4582.866,"end":4600.903,"text":"我看一下你知道二月我透過全國的健保資料庫光是台北市申報點值低於不知道多少錢的低於幾十萬的二十萬五十萬的就佔了七八成以上"},{"start":4601.944,"end":4621.642,"text":"裏面有藥師有護理師有行政人員有醫師你覺得到底誰還可以在這樣子的狀態之下經營下去呢然後護理師啊我現在沒有認識一個護理師他不想離職的所有護理師都已經快要撐不下去了"},{"start":4622.349,"end":4645.731,"text":"因為你又要求互併比然後又要求又要求這個什麼每一班要幾個人然後他們離職率這麼高所有的班都排不出來科別傾斜這麼嚴重這個禮拜有一個大新聞大家都沒有看到嗎一個懷孕的女醫師因為班排不出來"},{"start":4647.012,"end":4652.695,"text":"因為班排不出來他在有游離輻射的狀態之下值了32小時的班我過去20年我坦白說啦我也是不忍心我的同事值太多班所以我破水的時候人就在開刀房我懷孕的時候也都在值班為什麼因為我進入婦產科的時候"},{"start":4669.232,"end":4677.274,"text":"沒有人欸我同一屆只有兩個人欸你覺得我不值班難道要他值30天的班嗎要我同屆的這個同事值30天的班嗎所以現在我們科別的傾斜已經非常的嚴重了許多科別根本沒人嘛兒科你也知道沒人這一切的一切的源頭還不是就是健保已經大崩壞了嗎所以不管是我連放射科醫師的同學都告訴我他現在連放射師都沒有"},{"start":4699.199,"end":4710.105,"text":"沒有人幫忙造騙子請問放射科醫師要怎麼執行他的業務啦藥師也沒有檢驗科也離職護理師也離職你覺得光有醫師能幹嘛結果現在就是醫師還在幫忙你們講話王振旭委員還在幫你們講話王振旭委員你也知道齁你也知道吧放射師沒有啦檢驗科也離職啦這個你都清楚啊"},{"start":4729.747,"end":4738.012,"text":"所以如果你覺得你四年本來就可以達成的事情為什麼不馬上就做到呢?我們就不是應該要趕快做到嗎?所以我還是非常的希望啦大家可以馬上為我們的醫療環境注入一針強心針給予實質的幫助才是最重要的謝謝大家"},{"start":4760.654,"end":4760.694,"text":"陳婉嫻委員"},{"start":4775.958,"end":4795.413,"text":"謝謝主席讓我有第二次發言的機會謝謝菁惠醫師菁惠委員的指導我想我們都不會去說我們的醫師有多辛苦我們的護理人員有多辛苦我們都不會我們都了解因為我們都來自醫療體系"},{"start":4797.514,"end":4817.208,"text":"這是一定的事情所以請你不要說我好像沒有辦法認同對於我們這是一些醫療同仁的這種付出本身有哪一些的保留一點保留都沒有因為我也是曾經這樣付出的人我現在還是一樣這樣的付出我相信大家都是這個樣子"},{"start":4818.809,"end":4837.632,"text":"只是說我們在這個付出的過程當中如何能夠讓我們的權益可以得到更好的保障所以我剛剛也麻煩當新的部長、新的院長就任以後他們能不能趕快在第一時間就能夠去讓這樣的保障"},{"start":4838.272,"end":4840.194,"text":"我相信大家都在看政府怎麼做"},{"start":4865.712,"end":4886.499,"text":"大家也都希望趕快把問題做一些解決那這個解決過程如何能夠讓大家都非常滿意同時都能夠讓社會也知道我們為什麼要這樣做這個是需要大家一起來做討論一起來讓社會也知道的部分"},{"start":4887.279,"end":4913.682,"text":"所以請大家也要知道我身為醫界的一員我絕對絕對支持我們的整個醫療同仁的付出是需要透過政府透過大家一起來努力的而且時間上越快越好謝謝好謝謝王振旭委員那我想剛剛大家都有提到"},{"start":4914.677,"end":4930.096,"text":"新政府上任讓新的部長新的院長在這件事情上他必須要有個態度而且也要拿出方案那這一點上我是認同的所以如果是在這樣的情況底下必須要有個啟程對不對"},{"start":4933.755,"end":4960.073,"text":"總是要一個期程啊坦白講這個案子已經送出委員會當時其實不分朝野大家沒有反對哦就是送出委員會哦那送出委員會現在是在朝野協商階段大家要看的是到底這個案子由國民黨立院黨團提出蘇委員提出我提出我們這麼多委員的支持底下送出了委員會那我們要的是衛福部的一個讓一屆第一線人員"},{"start":4962.602,"end":4965.725,"text":"黃秀芳召委也排了公聽會。公聽會裡面大家最有共識的就是政府投資不足。政府的方案總得要拿出來吧。"},{"start":4990.782,"end":5012.593,"text":"不要就是說一下子就恐嚇大家說如果這一動那健保一定調這不能立刻畫上等號就是你在既有的財政你要怎麼去調整那包括賴總統自己講他最有能力解決這個問題那既然他已經承諾而且他當時提到的是0.9到1或是1.1不曉得是1.1還是1現在不太知道他真正的語意是什麼"},{"start":5018.715,"end":5041.481,"text":"但是顯然他所提的方案也是他對現狀的不滿因為你現在的點值絕對沒有到0.9所以在這樣的情況底下我是覺得剛剛民進黨的委員提出來說要等新的部長新的院長當然可以等但是不能等太久"},{"start":5044.096,"end":5067.602,"text":"那就是是不是在一個月之內你們就硬要把這個方案丟出來因為這個議題坦白講也討論了很久是不是一個月之後就應該要把這個具體的方案提出來因為朝野協商可以再開也可以等你們的新部長但重點是要有方案沒有方案我們就直接院會表決了"},{"start":5069.485,"end":5094.774,"text":"一個月過後就直接院會表決通過所以這個衛福部要有要有對案好不好你們你們你們具體的方案是什麼我覺得一定要提出來要不然這個剛剛大家講那麼多嗎第一線醫事人員現在這些困境跟問題我想我們委員會要有所作為了也不能就是這樣子什麼都不處理好不好"},{"start":5096.755,"end":5099.377,"text":"新任部長24日出國6月1日"},{"start":5120.731,"end":5140.681,"text":"六月底怎麼是一個月?你的數學不太好。不是啦,他現在,我跟你說啦,部長他現在會不知道有這個議題嗎?對啊,他擔任過本委員會的委員,老早就都知道,這還沒出過報告。六月中啦。"},{"start":5154.742,"end":5182.312,"text":"主席因為我個人有提出一些附帶決議嘛那事實上這些是可以你們就算部長還沒有辦法到位就是說你們可以先處理可以就提出建議因為怎麼樣表決老實說0.951一定過關嘛就一定過關那這個前提下你們應該幫就剛剛尤其我談了附帶決議的部分是你先幫部長研擬好政策跟對策到時候就是要用最快的速度"},{"start":5182.972,"end":5182.992,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5213.345,"end":5214.566,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5244.85,"end":5247.272,"text":"這次新的內閣上來我們國民黨這邊還有民眾黨這邊是打算要排研會"},{"start":5258.041,"end":5281.634,"text":"研會就是要讓新的行政院長來備詢我們要總執行我們每一個人都再去再問一次30分鐘阿新的各個委員會一、三、四召開然後這樣搞可以搞到六月二十號以後啦二十號左右那再來就結束了結果就沒了我們不是加、加、加、加開研會齁七月中又如何"},{"start":5289.277,"end":5314.557,"text":"沒有啦,那是亂講的啦。最多也到6月下旬,那你如果就再弄到6月底就已經了啦。所以我的建議還是在6月中旬,頂多到20號之前啦。好不好?然後陳昭志委員他提的負債券也要有對策都要出來跟他一個答覆啦。我已經幫你刷啦,他絕對不會幫你刷啦。"},{"start":5319.075,"end":5320.486,"text":"來,次長是不是要回應一下了?"},{"start":5323.696,"end":5350.554,"text":"我們是希望說原先是希望多一點的時間除了我們自己內部這些討論跟各界討論之外那我們原先是希望說能夠有多一點的時間來跟行政院來討論說裡面的來怎麼樣移住更多的資源所以說我們才會希望說時間稍微有一點空間那我們如果真的是沒辦法的時候我們是不是好吧我們盡量在6月20號左右好不好"},{"start":5351.975,"end":5377.161,"text":"這個次長我告訴你這件事情剛剛陳昭智永講得很好是總統跟院長的事情也還不是你們的事情你懂我意思嗎就是說他們下個禮拜我坦白講這件事情你們一定要讓新任的院長跟總統知道委員會現在的狀態就是這個案子已經是在協商期了沒有方案就是表決看過0.95或是1而已了"},{"start":5377.728,"end":5396.765,"text":"但是你們要趕快提一個對策就是行政院要有態度卓榮泰跟耐心德關係那麼好其實這件事情我在兩個禮拜前在一個頒獎典禮他有來我當面就跟他講我說我們現在委員會已經通過了就是這個要調漲這個點子的事情"},{"start":5400.998,"end":5417.473,"text":"他其實應該知道,他現在應該都知道這件事。那院長的態度很重要,不是靠你們去協商,你們要和主席處協商,我都不相信。院長一句話,主席總書就買單,這個就是可以非常快速的事情,只要賴總統他的意志。"},{"start":5417.813,"end":5418.273,"text":"８立法院朝野黨團報告"},{"start":5436.533,"end":5436.553,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5466.761,"end":5485.055,"text":"《健康台灣》、《健康論壇》都開假的嗎?其實裡面已經有復案了。我坦白講就是,你們裡面坦白講已經有某種程度的復案了,是要做到哪裡的問題。所以這件事情我是覺得也不用再拖,也不宜再拖啦。而且也不要讓一介一顆心懸著這樣子,到底要不要蓋還是可以怎麼樣。"},{"start":5488.226,"end":5490.708,"text":"6月17日那一周會再開一次協商,那次協商就要見真章了。"},{"start":5508.905,"end":5509.366,"text":"六月十八日"},{"start":5521.857,"end":5522.277,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5550.489,"end":5575.054,"text":"所以如果是這樣子的話那就是請衛福部回去必須針對這個案子你要提出你們具體改革的方案是什麼下一次協商會議就要提出來那如果協商會議內容大家不滿意的話那這個案子因為現在已經是朝野協商階段就會進到院會進行表決那我們預定就是6月17號該週"},{"start":5577.372,"end":5606.272,"text":"就是再召開一次的朝野協商會議也是最後一次了六月十七號再召開這也是最後一次那該溝通的該處理的我們就希望為不不把這件事情列為是重要的事項那該跟醫界溝通的也在這一個時間把握時間跟大家去做溝通好不好大家是為了改革更好了好不好目的是要讓我們的醫護人員有更好的環境不用那麼血汗然後合理的這一個幾步"},{"start":5607.458,"end":5613.704,"text":"請問各位委員跟官員還有沒有其他意見要提出來?好,如果沒有的話那我們今天協商協商會議到此結束。我們散會,謝謝大家。"},{"start":5641.169,"end":5646.049,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"15916","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15916","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d43dc8870a7b167e22042dc10dca826773be8d109af184be4ad94c91bb585bac75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T08:31:02+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T14:33:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":21718,"委員發言時間":"08:31:02 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劉燕秋主任衛生福利部國際合作組參事兼主任施金水"},{"start":2099.892,"end":2103.714,"text":"本日會議．邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告．推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會．執行現況．並備質詢。．請吳部長上臺報告"},{"start":2120.885,"end":2143.477,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安、大家好今天非常高興能夠應大院的貴委員會的邀請就推動國際社會聲援我國參加世界衛生大會、WHA的活動的執行現況進行專題報告今天非常高興出席的委員非常的踴躍跟以前不太一樣"},{"start":2145.298,"end":2160.972,"text":"詳細的這個報告的內容就請大家參閱書面的報告那以下就將口頭的重點做一些說明那第77屆的世界衛生大會就是WHA定在今年5月27號到6月1號在瑞士日內瓦舉行"},{"start":2162.173,"end":2185.344,"text":"外交部循例積極推動參與在這邊要特別感謝立法院的支持尤其是江副院長啟臣將率領跨黨派的委員組成的立委四島團前往日內瓦展現我國人對參與WHA和WHO各項技術性會議活動和機制的高度期盼相信立法院的具體行動支持將提升台灣的國際能見度"},{"start":2188.897,"end":2208.962,"text":"從2017年開始,世界衛生組織的幹事長屈服於中國的壓力,在每日邀請我們參加以觀察員的身份參加世界衛生大會,這不僅忽視了我們台灣2350萬人民的權益,更罔顧全日內的健康福祉,我們已經多次向世界衛生組織秘書處提出抗議。"},{"start":2211.002,"end":2238.421,"text":"衛福部的穴部長瑞元．已經致函世界衛生組織幹事長譚德塞．促請他依照世界衛生組織的憲章．所賦予的職權．循例邀請我國以觀察員的身份．出席今年的世界衛生大會．以及參與世界衛生組織．各項技術性的會議．活動和機制我國也同步洽請友邦和理念相近國家．以多元的方式．幫助我們進洽世界衛生組織的祕書處．"},{"start":2241.226,"end":2260.794,"text":"也持續透過洽刊專文媒體投書推播文宣短片以及社群媒體串聯等國際文宣作為形塑有力的這個氛圍那今年國際支持我國參加世界衛生組織的力道不斷擴大逐漸讓世界衛生組織的祕書處感受到各國對我們訴求的這個重視和支持"},{"start":2265.973,"end":2285.513,"text":"今年衛福部的邱後任部長泰元將會率領四位行動團在世界衛生大會期間前往日內瓦透過舉辦周邊的活動和雙邊會談等方式向與會各國當面說明我們的訴求持續爭取對我們推案的這個瞭解和支持"},{"start":2287.042,"end":2299.269,"text":"美國國務卿布林肯已經連續4年發表聲明鼓勵世界衛生組織恢復邀請台灣已觀察員的身份參與本屆的世界衛生大會美國國務院多位官員"},{"start":2302.657,"end":2331.053,"text":"也在不同的場合表達美方堅定支持台灣參與世界衛生組織和世界衛生大會的這個立場此外今年4月G7外長聯合聲明也再度表達支持台灣有意義參與世界衛生大會和世界衛生組織的技術會議日本在外交藍皮書中也重新支持台灣參與世界衛生大會的立場另外德國英國澳大利亞比利時荷蘭瑞典政府也公開表態支持"},{"start":2332.622,"end":2359.489,"text":"在立法部門方面目前已經有43個國家超過2800位國會議員以多元的方式為我們來發聲那這個數字在世衛大會開議前應該還會持續增加各國的立法部門以實際行動發聲充分顯示各國挺台民意也反映我國國會的國會外交的這個豐碩成果那在這方面也要感謝大院的支持在文宣方面"},{"start":2362.22,"end":2389.914,"text":"國際媒體刊登支持我國參加世界衛生大會的專文、投書、專訪和有我的報導目前共有172篇次衛福部長的專文獲33國的主流媒體刊登87篇次我們駐外館處的館長投書以及受訪目前已經獲得16國媒體刊登69篇次另外獲得國際媒體刊登16篇次的有我的報導"},{"start":2391.295,"end":2415.931,"text":"今年外交部製作的推案文宣短片第二次出生My Second Home這個意思是說在台灣我的第二故鄉已經在5月6號在各平台上線播放並且廣獲關注全球點閱率現在已經超過360萬次外交部也發布了280則推案相關的轉貼和推文"},{"start":2418.111,"end":2445.617,"text":"總曝光數目前已經超過100萬人次顯示國際輿論的這個友好的聲量持續發酵由於這部影片非常的令人感動那我看過一次我自己是非常的感動那因為今天的時間的受限我沒有辦法在這邊播放給各位委員來瀏覽那也請各位委員有空的時候上網搜尋並且觀賞該部影片那這個會凸顯我們台灣在醫療衛生方面沒有國界的這種國際的服務"},{"start":2447.617,"end":2469.602,"text":"那我國推動參與世界衛生組織是秉持專業務實有貢獻的原則所以我們再次敦促世界衛生組織幹事長應該基於維護全人類的這個衛生福祉的專業考量依循2009年到2016年的這個做法主動邀請台灣以觀察員身份參加世界衛生大會並且讓台灣完整"},{"start":2470.943,"end":2484.773,"text":"參與世界衛生組織所有的會議活動和機制以落實世界衛生組織的憲章健康是基本人權的宗旨以及早日達成全民軍艦也就是health for all的這個目標"},{"start":2486.704,"end":2501.555,"text":"最後我要再一次感謝大院以及各位委員的支持和鼓勵我們外交部將持續和衛福部合作來推案也期盼立法院的各位委員能夠持續的支持以上報告也多請指教謝謝另外衛福部有補充的資料請所有委員參閱"},{"start":2514.543,"end":2536.09,"text":"現在請徐巧欣委員．不好意思現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘．非本會委員8分鐘．10點30分發言登記截止．若有臨時提案．請於10點30分之前提出．11點左右試詢答情形進行處理我們現在請徐巧欣"},{"start":2546.755,"end":2559.665,"text":"我先問一下每次來國防外交委員會本會的委員大概都是6加2或是8加2非本會大概是5分鐘今天10加2"},{"start":2561.129,"end":2586.624,"text":"是初期然後列席是8分鐘代表說現在在場代表說這個議題很重要沒有啦這一次我們這個委員會很多次現在在場委員都在啊對啦不是像你講的我支持說好好的我來你都不見啊我在講話你不要打斷我要有禮貌我在會議詢問這是我的時間請不要打斷我"},{"start":2590.305,"end":2613.415,"text":"你這什麼口氣?你要倫理啊?你媽媽沒教你嗎?合委員、合委員、合委員這是我的時間欸我說請所有的委員今天這個議題非常重要請大家針對今天WHA的問題好好的詢問那我希望說今天登記的委員很多請主席也要控制時間"},{"start":2616.162,"end":2634.156,"text":"本席擔任主席我會做10加2分鐘在本委員會已經很久現在另外一位昭偉也在這裡所以我提醒昭偉時間到的時候你要考慮到下一個委員的發言權利因為每次在這邊你都讓前面的委員暢所欲言變成10加N分鐘"},{"start":2640.401,"end":2640.421,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2659.602,"end":2659.622,"text":"羅委員"},{"start":2687.383,"end":2710.831,"text":"我想剛剛委員表達自己的一個權益這我們尊重但是如果你要控制時間拜託你早一點來到我們這邊簽名早一點來前面排隊發言自然而然你就可以掌握你的時間好不好我想在這個時間點不需要去討論到這個每個人都有自己招委有自己的權利不要這個時候外委員會來主導"},{"start":2712.452,"end":2722.129,"text":"好謝謝因為今天登記發言的委員非常多我們現在開始詢答首先請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":2770.93,"end":2775.032,"text":"主席我想請這個魔法部部長上台"},{"start":2780.61,"end":2782.312,"text":"請外交部部長上台"},{"start":2801.573,"end":2823.587,"text":"早安部長我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你啊因為您在魔法的這個公開的社群網站上說呢你是這個外交部的魔法部的吵架王然後呢你也用林北稱呼你自己所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長還是04588"},{"start":2826.501,"end":2853.192,"text":"在立法院裡面我也很認真的跟委員回答那這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者我跟你說明一下就是說記者他們送給我的臨別禮物用一種幽默的方式對待我那我也有用一種幽默的方式來回應對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思所以大請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎"},{"start":2854.753,"end":2856.515,"text":"那部長我想請問一下最近你是否有感到傷心呢?"},{"start":2867.96,"end":2892.379,"text":"我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我們的這個外交我沒有問你原因我會跟你說明就是說因為我們在對捷克的這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種我沒有問你原因我只問你說是不是有感到傷心因為那一件事情我感到傷心因為我看到你在節目上面說對你來說是很傷心的"},{"start":2894.701,"end":2895.501,"text":"呵呵呵呵呵呵"},{"start":2926.92,"end":2932.112,"text":"那各位同仁也有,等一下都會幫他加錢喔今天大家都有"},{"start":2936.343,"end":2955.152,"text":"正式進入主題我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中我們總共援助了不是我們是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目部長一共31個項目一共31個項目今年度2024年"},{"start":2975.827,"end":2981.233,"text":"主席他們一直這樣子討論時間可能要幫我暫停一下因為我不知道他們要這樣多久"},{"start":2986.976,"end":2995.686,"text":"請問一下我們在捷克方面來說他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家的廠商來協助計畫的推動?"},{"start":2999.056,"end":2999.836,"text":"我們看一下下一張投影片"},{"start":3024.682,"end":3046.818,"text":"可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了嗎有沒有這件事情你有回答過嗎我沒有掌握好 你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊"},{"start":3047.518,"end":3072.122,"text":"在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下"},{"start":3074.444,"end":3082.656,"text":"有關於這些細節的部分我知道但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面"},{"start":3091.467,"end":3093.028,"text":"有六家廠商但是依照我們相互的這種約定就是"},{"start":3120.828,"end":3122.169,"text":"我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的"},{"start":3141.334,"end":3160.624,"text":"其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目"},{"start":3161.792,"end":3186.637,"text":"再追劇然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁"},{"start":3188.891,"end":3217.861,"text":"就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露的是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思"},{"start":3218.621,"end":3225.467,"text":"那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是"},{"start":3246.784,"end":3247.084,"text":"下一張"},{"start":3262.822,"end":3280.636,"text":"神奇的捷克大秘寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼"},{"start":3286.5,"end":3302.284,"text":"因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼 因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們不能提供清單給我們嗎就是因為我們跟他們之間沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金 立法院要如何監督"},{"start":3313.889,"end":3321.191,"text":"有關於這個部分是應立法院在2014年的這個決議來進行的那這個採購是CHTI的採購不受我們國內的這個採購法的限制那它受到捷克境內的相關的法律來規範透過這樣子的邏輯之後"},{"start":3332.955,"end":3335.397,"text":"再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了100萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話"},{"start":3352.429,"end":3353.93,"text":"請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的衣裁公司買了多少用了多少我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的"},{"start":3363.507,"end":3364.867,"text":"你不知道答案啦我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道那100萬的美金用到哪裡去了啦"},{"start":3393.257,"end":3393.437,"text":"下一張投影片"},{"start":3408.667,"end":3429.188,"text":"你們說 剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是"},{"start":3430.269,"end":3452.15,"text":"為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求"},{"start":3454.094,"end":3464.643,"text":"這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014年我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法"},{"start":3469.967,"end":3476.553,"text":"他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底"},{"start":3496.87,"end":3497.51,"text":"請問提出這些建議的人是誰?"},{"start":3511.977,"end":3522.245,"text":"我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再由CHTI"},{"start":3540.778,"end":3544.001,"text":"我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的醫材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的醫材廠商讓臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們簽訂合約可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":3567.879,"end":3574.161,"text":"我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法"},{"start":3595.828,"end":3598.149,"text":"得標廠商是誰?幾家投標?得標廠商品相?得標品相如何分開採購?得標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款?付了多少?可不可以匯耗?"},{"start":3613.353,"end":3616.395,"text":"給我回覆所以你們這樣就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問"},{"start":3634.324,"end":3637.685,"text":"所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?"},{"start":3663.847,"end":3674.072,"text":"我們盡可能的用這種對邦交對那個外交關係的幫助或者是說用對烏克蘭最有直接幫助的這種方式的要看個案要看個案要看個案"},{"start":3691.721,"end":3692.942,"text":"接下來請羅志強委員上台質詢"},{"start":3727.13,"end":3727.67,"text":"有請部長請部長羅元照"},{"start":3737.671,"end":3764.762,"text":"部長先恭喜你齁然後要出任國安會秘書長成為賴清德的首位的國安會秘書長齁那我想要跟部長這個請教一下您自封是吵架王嘛那個不是我自封是那個記者聯誼或在最後一次的聯誼他們給我的一個幽默你也樂在其中沒有樂在其中這是一個幽默你才會掛在那個布條嘛這個是應記者的要求發射群嘛"},{"start":3765.702,"end":3788.654,"text":"馬來西亞其實今天本席不是來跟你吵架的今天是來跟你講道理所以我也希望待會你不要自稱林北啦可不可以嗎我到目前為止我都沒有這樣子你來社群上自稱我希望不要拿到國會不過那個是我是從鄉下來在鄉下自我稱呼是這樣子但是這是在國會殿堂在國會殿堂我不會這樣子處理你不在國會講林北我也不會在"},{"start":3793.776,"end":3794.677,"text":"馬英九總統第一任國安會秘書長"},{"start":3812.605,"end":3833.598,"text":"蘇起如果蘇起自封吵架王不管在國會還是在社群臉書他掛著彩帶洋洋得以自封吵架王那個不是我自封的那個是媒體給我的一個幽默我給你一個勸告如果你不認同這件事情真的不要掛那個彩帶這點你認同吧"},{"start":3834.858,"end":3851.509,"text":"這個是記者給我的一個幽默彩帶總不是記者給你的吧彩帶是記者給我的彩帶是寄給你不要掛在身上嘛他們希望能夠掛在身上跟我照相這是一個幽默好嗎他叫你掛在身上就掛在身上沒關係啦我再問另外一個你總不能推給記者"},{"start":3853.01,"end":3862.716,"text":"我沒有推給記者我另外一個啦不是這一個啦這個你推給記者沒關係啦另外一個你總不能推給記者你在徐曉欣執行的時候連嗆八次來告我藐視國會啊"},{"start":3864.622,"end":3886.921,"text":"那我想請問如果是蘇起他會講這種話嗎?我不確定他不會講這種話?因為蘇起不會到立法院如果蘇起對著民進黨的立委講說來告我藐視國會阿你覺得民進黨的立委會接受嗎?以後我到國安會的時候也不會再到立法院來那沒關係阿歐鴻烈外交部長如果對著民進黨的立委講說你告我藐視國會阿民進黨的立委會接受嗎?"},{"start":3888.083,"end":3901.884,"text":"我不確定我告訴你明天你不會接受啦你不要講民進黨的立委不會接受馬英九總統也不會接受啦基本上以馬英九總統過去的政府慣例如果對國會用這種羞辱的方式的話我看恐怕也待不下去不只是書啟喔"},{"start":3903.647,"end":3922.309,"text":"蘇起是一個有涵養的人他不會講這種話所以蘇起不會講蘇起也是一個尊重國會的人他也不會講這種話但是國安會秘書長和其重要的職務今天如果自詡為就算是被封很開心的戴上了吵架王的這個披帶"},{"start":3923.53,"end":3926.353,"text":"然後在國會嗆這個你來告我藐視國會我就要問我們的部長未來的國安會秘書長那金澤總統認同你嗆立委說來告我藐視國會嗎"},{"start":3937.363,"end":3942.148,"text":"賴清德總統認同嗎?你不會問他?你沒有問他?那你覺得他會認同嗎?沒關係啊,等他國情報告來看看,我也想看看他認不認同啦認不認同一個官員直接嗆來告我藐視國會賴清德會支持你掛著彩帶到國會或是在社群上說我就是吵架王啊,他會認同嗎?"},{"start":3962.133,"end":3980.28,"text":"我再說明一次就是說那個是最後一次跟記者做背景說明他們送給我的一個幽默我真的重點是一件事情部長你聽聽看聽我一句勸你站在這個地方其實代表的不只是吳釗燮"},{"start":3982.489,"end":4007.142,"text":"你代表的是蔡英文總統現在此時此刻因為蔡英文總統任命為外交部長你也代表未來的賴清德總統當選的因為你是他的第一任國安會秘書長我真的覺得你不應該給你的總統蔡英文總統跟賴清德總統還沒上任賴清德總統就被你添加一個藐視國會的這個所謂的集團的頭子的名字不好啦"},{"start":4007.722,"end":4032.732,"text":"因為你的一言一行就這樣大家去看看賴慶忠如果賴慶忠真的對你說你要嗆來告我藐視國會不聞不問說真的這個總統吼那也不是某種程度默許你默示你縱容你在國會來嗆的藐視國會嗎我這樣講有沒有道理啊能不能回應一下我對國會是非常的尊重國會阿三institution"},{"start":4033.192,"end":4040.298,"text":"因為我也是政治學者我對這個非常瞭解非常尊重所以像主席叫我來本來說今天不用來了可是主席叫我來我就來這個就是對國會的最高度的尊重願意出來談肯定就像隔壁我們的司法委員會蔡新祥部長就跑掉了這個我就沒辦法認同我肯定你站在這個地方"},{"start":4054.409,"end":4069.286,"text":"那我要跟部長說還是那句話你在這裡代表的其實不只你自己啦你說你尊重國會那就不要用一些讓大家覺得你不尊重國會的詞彙嘛你覺得你來告我藐視國會你覺得是尊重國會嗎"},{"start":4071.877,"end":4098.586,"text":"那個委員我必須要再說明一下我跟部長講其實我很尊重你啦尊敬你啦我對這個institution這個絕對是沒有問題但是individual就是個人跟這個institution這是兩個不同的概念我對國會的這個尊重這是無庸置疑的許曉鑫今天站在執行台請問他是許曉鑫站在執行台嗎羅志強站在執行台是羅志強站在執行台嗎"},{"start":4099.884,"end":4127.09,"text":"我們是按照憲政執行我們的執行權欸那照你的說法的話如果今天過去的官員不尊重王定宇委員我可以就說我今天所有的對藐視國會行為指重的王定宇委員我可以這樣講嗎?不可以嘛好那我要再來講我想請教一下部長齁那個你知道前處長會副主委張天青自詡東廠引發軒然大波齁他有一句名言叫影射的殺傷力最強你聽過嗎?"},{"start":4129.52,"end":4132.522,"text":"當中國在欺負台灣時我國的立法委員補進來踢一腳這句話總是你講的吧?"},{"start":4153.95,"end":4158.685,"text":"那我想請教你這句話是有真憑實據真人明信還是影射殺傷?"},{"start":4162.116,"end":4172.781,"text":"真憑實據當然有啊我在國會裡面接受那個詢問在國會裡面接受這種詢問那有關於我們在國際社會上面受到中國的這種威脅欺壓的時候那我想這種情況是已經經過的很多次了"},{"start":4189.268,"end":4212.553,"text":"還是今天是黃建豪委員?你今天跟我講你有真憑實據沒有真人姓名嗎?有沒有真人姓名再告訴我一次跟委員說明就是說在國會的詢問以及平常的發言都有記錄有記錄啊?那你連真人姓名都講不出來啊?這不是影射?什麼是影射?"},{"start":4213.584,"end":4241.191,"text":"我這邊還是奉勸部長啦你身為政府官員講話今天要負責任你今天如果真的覺得有立委配合中共涉及國安問題的話移送法辦啦在這邊用張天青的影射方式於您部長的身份有損於您部長的職份有損於賴清德未來總統的施政有損講話之前想想賴清德總統以上謝謝委員"},{"start":4243.407,"end":4251.294,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請吳部長請吳部長委員好"},{"start":4268.412,"end":4289.664,"text":"部長早安,我們現在回歸到今天的主題,WHA難得我們的主席有擬定了這麼好的這個題目讓大家來做質詢5月27號WHA即將在日內瓦舉行,到目前為止我們都還沒有收到邀約對不對?"},{"start":4292.747,"end":4304.015,"text":"我從外交部跟衛福部的報告裡面看得出來其實我們做了很多很多的努力從各個管道希望能夠爭取這個支持那這幾年我們確確實實也獲得很多這個國際友人的支持希望台灣能夠重返WHA可是呢"},{"start":4312.281,"end":4312.401,"text":"難度很高,是"},{"start":4331.162,"end":4335.827,"text":"難度非常的高,對,所以其實我們也不管怎麼樣我們還是會在這個5月27號的時候會啟程到這個日月娃去,然後呢透過像過去的這個模式舉辦周邊活動或是雙邊會談的方式呢來做這個進行"},{"start":4349.5,"end":4357.184,"text":"其實中國對我國的打壓長年以來都是如此從20年前的2003年台灣面臨嚴峻的SUS到這個COVID-19的這個大浩劫其實中國從來都沒有放棄對台灣的這個打壓"},{"start":4370.249,"end":4385.677,"text":"我放這影片是在20年前那時候呢台灣的記者在詢問這一個中國的這個日內瓦的大使沙祖康的時候在詢問他一些台灣要加入WHA的這個問題的時候他那張嘴臉說誰理你們啊可是經過了20年來這個中國對台灣還是如此的這個態度而且我們覺得說會更加的"},{"start":4400.724,"end":4422.09,"text":"我是覺得說我們不管做了多大的努力想要重返WHA可是這條路是非常非常的這個辛苦跟艱辛的那尤其是中國中國這十年來推動了一連串的這個政策比如說一帶一路還有2021年他所推行的全球發展創意還有2022年全球安全創意等等的"},{"start":4425.331,"end":4432.054,"text":"其實他都在挑戰這個美國主導的這個國際的這個秩序尤其是一帶一路一帶一路呢他針對一些發展中的國家像這個中亞或是非洲呢進行一個基礎建設讓這些國家其實都是導向中國所以我們再怎麼努力可是呢舉手的時候支持我國的這些國家還是沒有辦法呢讓台灣"},{"start":4451.341,"end":4453.742,"text":"非常謝謝委員對我們參加世界衛生大會的關心的確參加世界衛生大會對我們來講是一個很艱辛的一個歷程"},{"start":4475.173,"end":4491.48,"text":"但是就過去這幾年我們的經驗來看就是說我們必須要去聚沙成塔一次一次的去累積比如說有一些國家開始在支持我們他們支持的方式是用聯合競洽的方式或者是說直接間接來為我們發言的方式"},{"start":4491.82,"end":4515.376,"text":"或者是說用聯合的這種支持的這個信函的這個方式那我們回頭過去看這幾年是不斷的在增加當中那在國際的這個輿論的氛圍方面我們也看到越來越多國家的這個國會議員也透過不同的方式來聲援我們那也可以看到像今年美國他們支持我們的這個力道是更加的這個強勁尤其是他們針對2758號決議案"},{"start":4517.657,"end":4518.217,"text":"Global South"},{"start":4535.928,"end":4560.552,"text":"就是說全球南方這整個很大的這個集團那由於中國的這個影響力是非常大的所以最終如果說要走到這個投票的話我相信連美國這種好朋友他們覺得說這個應該不是一條我們應該去走的路那現在就是我們必須要去逐漸累積我們的這個實力去吸引更多其他的這些好朋友來支持我們"},{"start":4562.482,"end":4573.11,"text":"謝謝,我知道外交部在這國際情勢如此嚴峻之下,真的是非常非常的辛苦,其實我們都看在這個眼裡。我說未來的路很艱困很艱辛,可是我在想說以台灣在國際上這幾年的這個表現,我想會"},{"start":4582.317,"end":4606.272,"text":"贏得很多國家的這個肯定那我們也希望就是說真的有重返WHA的這一天啦那再來還有一點就是說我們提到這個價值觀外交那價值觀外交一直都是歐洲呢他很重要的一個外交的這個政策那價值觀外交其實他強調的就是對自由民主人權法治等基本權利的一個尊重像這個歐盟他的"},{"start":4610.094,"end":4631.013,"text":"歐洲聯盟基本條約或里斯本條約跟歐洲聯盟基本權利憲章裡面都有提到這些核心價值我在想這些都是台灣跟很多有台的國家我們進行務實外交也是基於這些價值觀外交我們是奠定於這個基礎之上可是在近期的歐盟商會的評論裡面針對於台灣"},{"start":4636.698,"end":4638.68,"text":"會通過他對兩個提案非常的有意見跟疑慮就是藐視國會罪跟國會聽證調查權所以我想請問部長這會不會影響到這個外資甚至呢"},{"start":4656.801,"end":4669.476,"text":"會影響到我們的友邦對我們的一些疑慮甚至影響到我們的綁交國對我們的一些外交上面的一些可能我們會面臨一些風險一些挫折會不會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":4672.118,"end":4683.103,"text":"這個也是我們擔心的那如果說看到那個歐盟商會他們已經有做這方面的這個表達那像這種表達的確是我們必須要去關心的因為像這種國會的這個聽證調查權以及那個藐視國會權"},{"start":4687.565,"end":4711.34,"text":"國會罪的這種東西如果說真的是要去落實落實到這麼寬廣的話那會有點像是在中國他們用這種反間諜法的這種方式去影響到其他的國家在中國的這個正常的這個商業行為那這個是我們非常擔心的那我們台灣作為一個自由民主開放的這個國家以及作為非常自由開放的一個市場"},{"start":4712.26,"end":4730.756,"text":"會因為這種東西會受到其他國家的質疑那我們台灣的這個立國的根本除了我們是一個民主國家之外我們台灣也是一個非常蓬勃的自由經濟體制那如果是因為這樣子的話會讓我們台灣的這個根本受到一個衝擊那這個事情我們必須要去重新考慮"},{"start":4732.184,"end":4748.351,"text":"對,這個部分的話是不是我們要有更多的這個對外的一個解釋因為像藐視國會罪跟國會聽證調查權如果是放在這個價值觀外交裡頭它是對於一些法治、人權方面這是違背這個價值觀的這個核心價值"},{"start":4752.213,"end":4775.342,"text":"所以這部分的話臺灣一定要審慎與對所以我是覺得說我自己本身也很擔心藐視國會罪跟國會聽證權如果通過的話對臺灣是一個很大很大的一個傷害那另外還有就是外交機密的洩漏是不是也會造成各國對我國的不信任引發外交的危機是不是也是這樣子我們這最近一連串這些事情是不是讓這個國外有"},{"start":4777.523,"end":4805.933,"text":"有好台灣的這些國外有一些對台灣不好的一些印象甚至是影響到台灣的形象會第一個就是我們台灣是一個民主國家我們台灣的這個民主憲政的體制是三權分立那如果說被其他的這個民主國家在台的這個代表處或者是說像商界的這些人士看到我們台灣的這個三權分立本來運作的很好的這個民主體制開始在模糊化其中有一個機構"},{"start":4806.653,"end":4806.973,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4826.167,"end":4846.149,"text":"等於是引誘中國來對我們來做這些攻擊那所以如果其他的國家看到我們因為這種必須要去守密的這些項目不斷地攤開來的話那這個對於我們台灣在國際社會上面的這個被信賴度這個也會有所影響也會傷害到我們台灣在國際社會上面的這種聲譽"},{"start":4849.73,"end":4870.931,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長我想說這些我們的目前台灣不管是在國際對我國的這個認同來講這一切其實得來都是非常的不容易難得台灣這幾年尤其在疫情當中讓全世界看到台灣那也看到台灣的民主的這個發展人權的這個尊重等等我們也不希望說因為"},{"start":4872.112,"end":4872.853,"text":"接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":4905.993,"end":4906.679,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長請部長"},{"start":4913.942,"end":4942.861,"text":"委員好部長老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下是因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險"},{"start":4944.182,"end":4970.315,"text":"他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個"},{"start":4972.176,"end":4997.495,"text":"通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理"},{"start":4999.047,"end":5004.618,"text":"非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中國你論證多長這個這個"},{"start":5007.509,"end":5029.588,"text":"沒有辦法去確定但是在短期間之內一年兩年三年之內那個都沒有問題甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢的確是對我們來講我們必須要很關注比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況"},{"start":5031.61,"end":5032.31,"text":"有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了"},{"start":5061.437,"end":5062.418,"text":"我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的"},{"start":5086.072,"end":5088.054,"text":"在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告"},{"start":5112.874,"end":5141.2,"text":"那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個天主教徒中國所有宗教人民都要屬於共產黨的"},{"start":5142,"end":5168.337,"text":"都要官派的所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了這個是外交部份的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部"},{"start":5169.378,"end":5190.496,"text":"當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講他不是機密他已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由"},{"start":5191.175,"end":5218.519,"text":"有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個新法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些挫折"},{"start":5219.059,"end":5222.562,"text":"尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開"},{"start":5243.399,"end":5270.725,"text":"三月份捷克期刊就已經報導了嘛但我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以"},{"start":5271.385,"end":5294.63,"text":"外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長"},{"start":5295.33,"end":5319.572,"text":"他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治人物等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好"},{"start":5320.373,"end":5347,"text":"我也不是說好朋友就是說在合作的夥伴上有時候我們在某一些國家要建立事實上中東歐親中的國會議員還相當多啦所以這個要破壞是蠻快的那昨天有媒體大亨趙少康說要弄死你們外交部和密的那個公務員你們有沒有看到那個新聞如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交"},{"start":5347.54,"end":5354.966,"text":"他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是用弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳"},{"start":5356.943,"end":5381.472,"text":"那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的"},{"start":5382.332,"end":5398.257,"text":"我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嗎是所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員對這個不應該啦對"},{"start":5400.618,"end":5429.605,"text":"外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨只會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂"},{"start":5430.185,"end":5435.729,"text":"中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法也就是說現在南海有軍演"},{"start":5460.145,"end":5460.282,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5460.905,"end":5490.166,"text":"中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演然後目前呢美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友"},{"start":5490.546,"end":5490.806,"text":"中華民國外交部長"},{"start":5510.984,"end":5522.7,"text":"的身份我們對南海的態度是什麼請發表非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論"},{"start":5526.104,"end":5541.622,"text":"已經對外發表我們的這個立場立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":5542.082,"end":5542.642,"text":"這是一貫延續的"},{"start":5570.399,"end":5572.12,"text":"你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議"},{"start":5592.971,"end":5611.125,"text":"中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略"},{"start":5611.886,"end":5612.286,"text":"謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定"},{"start":5641.627,"end":5659.452,"text":"那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交攻勢我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾"},{"start":5660.452,"end":5660.752,"text":"外交部長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":5679.796,"end":5690.036,"text":"吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在"},{"start":5691.175,"end":5718.956,"text":"對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這一個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期刊的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些"},{"start":5722.825,"end":5739.443,"text":"美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對"},{"start":5740.964,"end":5740.984,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5769.52,"end":5771.886,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":5797.489,"end":5800.779,"text":"主席好 有請外交部吳部長請吳部長"},{"start":5809.332,"end":5828.039,"text":"委員好部長好很高興今天在這個本屆立委中間您是最後一次歷歷來詢答那麼後面接著又要到這個國安會去服務就誠如剛才前面委員講的理論上外交國防它是有延續性的那麼將來到國安會後你要做跨部會的協調"},{"start":5829.059,"end":5854.973,"text":"是可能擔負更大的責任那麼我們今天呢原本是講省市推動國際社會聲援我國參加世界衛生組織的執行報告那麼我們站在立場上是絕對支持這個整個的作為謝謝委員那在這個題目裡面我們就用這個一個infographic來顯示外交部做的努力當然我們後面還有經濟的空間"},{"start":5856.634,"end":5881.003,"text":"我們也希望在政府的新任期內我們要推動國家安全戰略因此有關資源分配、協商的順暢策略比較容易推行施政能夠同步、政策持續、法治周全在這種情況下外交部對外不管是以半官方或官方包括剛才講的我們很多歐洲國家跟我們友誼很深但是非"},{"start":5882.483,"end":5902.898,"text":"MOU只是一個概念我提出一個建議因為為了保障後面能夠合作MOU裡面加個但書簽一個NDA如果只是簽MOU對方不小心講出來或者是透過他內部disclose出去"},{"start":5903.837,"end":5918.098,"text":"我們做一個MOU後面做一個Proviso 裡面另外再簽一個以前我們跟美國國務院跟國防部都單獨有簽一個NDA Non Disclosure Agreement那這個時候就保障MOU的內容就不會外洩"},{"start":5919.199,"end":5940.906,"text":"至於後續參加這個WHA的這個活動我們當然是持續要支持了那也希望後來在往後在我們的國家安全戰略規劃下協助跨部會政府的這個橫向協調interagency coordination能夠做得更周延那麼下面一個題目就是延續剛才"},{"start":5944.416,"end":5952.802,"text":"前面的委員講的就是南海的立場您剛才引述了就是我們政府在2016年對我們整個在南海的看法都有演示出來"},{"start":5954.298,"end":5970.862,"text":"因為我本人也在2016年前我也去了這個PCAPermanent Court of Arbitration我也到現場去了解的實際的情況也看出了他們對南海問題但是現在產生一個現象就是很多是繼承的事實比方來講這個1971年我們從中葉島訪台離開菲律賓就佔領了那麼1974年"},{"start":5978.584,"end":5997.069,"text":"鄧千沙州陸戰隊防臺離開越南就佔了這麼多年來已經既成事實了當然太平島我們現在有有這個coast guard有駐軍那東沙也很好我這邊提一個建議啊就是因為我們的政府在民國88年跟98年由行政院發布的法案啊看這個圖上"},{"start":5998.715,"end":6022.491,"text":"到現在的黃岩島仍然是在我們的臨海基線內那麼菲律賓啊跟中國大陸首先兩個禮拜前三個禮拜前是在這個所謂的人愛礁啊但是人愛礁是低潮高地所以它雖然是一條擱淺的這個登陸艦在那邊它仍是住在船上所以他們兩邊鬧來鬧去啊其實都是作秀因為不會改變結果"},{"start":6023.791,"end":6039.517,"text":"中國大陸也允許菲律賓運送糧食但是不准他有建材讓這條擱淺的船能夠持續讓時間拖那現在我們回到在這個民主礁也叫做黃岩島因為這個在我們的領海法裡面是公佈了"},{"start":6040.478,"end":6066.335,"text":"所以我們有我們的立場是那麼我建議我們的這個條約法律師就是邀請菲律賓駐台的不管是辦公室的代表我們做一個Diplomatic Demarche的程序就告訴他依照我們的法律這個東西是在我的領海範圍只要表達這個就可以了這是立場而不是單獨聚焦在太平島那我們再去看"},{"start":6069.48,"end":6085.652,"text":"這個島我是利用了衛星照片海圖把所有的島礁相同的比例套疊下去了各位看到東沙群島是很穩固的有臨海基線那太平島是沒有包括臨海基線只是有淨限制水域"},{"start":6086.823,"end":6103.066,"text":"可是民主教黃岩島在我們政府的法令宣布裡面是有領海基線的那現在中共跟菲律賓兩個在爭主導權那麼雖然雙方不管是執法單位你叫他Maritime Police或Coast Guard"},{"start":6103.286,"end":6121.016,"text":"大家用Water Cannon用水泡在那邊轟其實是show business因為那個島上是沒有辦法居留的它只是在即便是高潮也是在水面3公尺但是呢爭取的是在整個南海的影響力那麼我覺得我們政府在這個島礁上面外交部的立場"},{"start":6121.596,"end":6145.544,"text":"就是正式通知菲律賓主權我們有的論述方式我不介入你們的爭吵那這一點是可以顯示出在部長任內維護南海主權過程中間不要漏掉了民主交因為他是在88年98年兩次公布修正法案都劃在我們的臨海基線那是不是請這個條約法律司司長您有沒有回答"},{"start":6148.523,"end":6172.594,"text":"這個部分我來說好了對於委員的這個建議我們回去做很深入的這個研究要確保說那個不只是可以彰顯我們的這個主權的這個主張那另外在區域的這個形式上面也不會有任何的這個困擾那我們來做一個那個一個好的一個Recommendation之後那我們來進行這樣子好嗎好謝謝委員"},{"start":6175.991,"end":6203.18,"text":"謝謝委員在委員離開之前我要有一些感想委員是我非常尊重的一個軍界的前輩在立法院裡面做了很多的這些recommendation都是讓我們能夠很深入的去研究或者是說可以來馬上就來實行的這些建議對我們來講這個是非常的好在這邊也要跟委員致上最高的敬意謝謝委員"},{"start":6205.12,"end":6207.241,"text":"謝謝主席,主席有請吳部長請吳部長"},{"start":6230.799,"end":6246.861,"text":"委員長部長好這個有始有終我想對於這個艱難的外交工作其實也是這樣我相信是一棒接一棒那麼在您手上所打下的基礎下一棒會做得更好那麼今天既然流行所謂的這個open book隨堂考那麼"},{"start":6248.752,"end":6275.86,"text":"面對您最後一次質詢我想說那我也來開個隨康考好了我等一下會秀幾張照片看看您認不認識照片上面的人首先從您鏡頭上所看到的最右邊開始這一位您認識嗎?實任國民黨總統候選人他在造勢場合上面講了四個字叫做林北丹利他現在是他現在您知道是誰吧?"},{"start":6277.263,"end":6305.968,"text":"我們的院長我們立法院的院長對不對我應該澄清一下是你們的院長對對對是我們國家的立法院長好的那這個中間這一位呢算是過去我在跑新聞的時候也號稱立法院小辣椒啦那麼他好像在立法院也曾經說過了被認為是爆粗口叫做拎揍罵啦好那再來就是剛剛也有質詢您的他"},{"start":6306.768,"end":6330.181,"text":"講的這位徐巧欣委員那麼我會秀這張照片是因為這些都是電視台上面的截圖有的是講閩南語但是也有就用發音像以老子來說如果以我這個年紀我是不知道現場的大家有沒有讀過那一篇叫做老子都不老子了竟然出現在課本裡面所以課本是公然叫我們講"},{"start":6331.664,"end":6331.784,"text":"邀請外交部長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":6361.483,"end":6379.498,"text":"那我剛剛講的這個臺灣話的這個字是因為我們鄉下人我是來自於鄉下那這個根本我是沒有辦法去忘記的因為我本身就是鄉下長大的那鄉下人在碰到見面的時候在講到自己的時候都是用這個字來形容所以沒有任何不敬的意思"},{"start":6379.878,"end":6394.495,"text":"好其實本席會提問這個就是說我相信語言的使用不應該因為講台語或者是人家講的中文華語同樣的稱謂就會被認為好像有不禮貌"},{"start":6394.955,"end":6401.703,"text":"但是真的確實是看個場合把話要講清楚今天本席也希望說在質詢的過程當中因為我們要做國際外交啊我們也得講對方聽得懂的話在國際外交、國際組織當中我們要用他們的語言包括為什麼蕭美琴、蕭大使我們未來的副總統在美國可以表現得這麼好"},{"start":6414.798,"end":6431.998,"text":"那就是因為他所使用的語文語彙雖然同樣都是英文但是可以讓我們的美國友邦的友人覺得感受那種親切感所以本席希望的是來你也好好解釋一下因為剛剛前面幾位都沒有讓你解釋因為我是記者出身我非常了解"},{"start":6432.919,"end":6454.522,"text":"最後的這個參會當中大家一定就是覺得欸接下來可能工作上面沒有機會見到但是呢私底下大家可能是好朋友請問這個彩帶是你自己做自己掛上去的嗎還是怎麼會有這樣的照片出來因為就是這個我們現在講的MOFA Taiwan的這個社群媒體當中出現了"},{"start":6455.703,"end":6469.097,"text":"然後以至於呢好像變成是你在挑釁你在挑釁特定的委員嗎沒有你在挑釁特定的國家嗎沒有我今天已經說明過幾次我在這邊也說明一下就是上禮拜五"},{"start":6470.232,"end":6495.988,"text":"我跟那個跑外交線的這個記者聯誼會跟他們做一個查序也跟他們做一個很深入的這個背景說明那大家都很高興那其中聯誼會的會長他就先做了這一個東西要呈送給我那這個本意就是一個幽默那對於這種幽默的話那大家的相處就會更好所以他幽默來我也幽默回去意思就是這樣子而已"},{"start":6496.42,"end":6515.199,"text":"所以現在被吳釗燮剛說你好像是對著某個委員來沒有不是那個意思也不是不是那個意思好我希望這個話說清楚最重要速會就是要解開嘛外交上不也是這樣嗎但是有些事情我覺得還是要講清楚前面我們就當作是一個open book你算過關好"},{"start":6516.4,"end":6532.811,"text":"但是有關於我們簽訂的這些所謂的協定跟備忘錄其實確實是有機敏之分我大概整理了我們第10屆第8會期到現在第11屆第1會期當中外交部送到立法院的相關議約包括有現在最紅的烏克蘭重建"},{"start":6533.925,"end":6561.683,"text":"出擊醫療照護量能現在被打上黃色的部分其實都是以備忘錄或密件的方式來處理那麼有些其實是可以公開請問這個為什麼是密件為什麼有些可以送來不是密件他所評定的過程是什麼因為我也曾經在這裡問過國安局的蔡局長他說這個是由主觀來決定現在可不可以讓我們知道那為什麼"},{"start":6563.744,"end":6567.569,"text":"難道說是因為這是有採購嗎還是說是因為採購的過程當中就有錢的問題但是我們來看一下比如說跟土瓦魯外交人員的訓練或者是外交度假打工這個沒有採購的合約但是為什麼有些是密件所以平等的等級到底是什麼難道說真的是外交部隨便開心嗎"},{"start":6584.307,"end":6607.912,"text":"不是,那個要列什麼樣的這個密等都是我們的那個處理的同仁跟他們單位的這種長官必須要去仔細的去檢視和考慮說這個事情出去的話會不會影響到我們跟這一個友好國家的關係或者是說影響到那個我們在國際社會上面受到中國更多的這些打壓"},{"start":6608.712,"end":6627.504,"text":"那在我們的同仁討論決定之後覺得說這個事情沒有問題了那我們就用一般件來處理那另外有一些就是說覺得這個公開來講可能會吸引到中國的這種打壓會影響到我們的雙邊關係等等的那就會用密件來處理那有些是這種NGO之間的這個簽訂那這個不是在那個締約"},{"start":6634.648,"end":6640.229,"text":"所以言下之意就是我們在處理外交工作的時候因為台灣特殊的困境包括中國的因素在內就以像捷克又或者是其他我現在黃色所標注的都是因為一旦"},{"start":6663.693,"end":6678.98,"text":"先公開了可能會有其他的狀況恆生之節或是造成我們的友邦在處理的程序上面備受壓力甚至於可能破局是不是但是密件就不能監督嗎我要來就是我們依法論法其實我們國際合作是依法有據包括我們國際合作發展法相關的規定都有特別提到就是會"},{"start":6689.545,"end":6689.885,"text":"﹚立法院議員"},{"start":6710.231,"end":6735.872,"text":"秘密會議 機密會議 外交部可以來報告嗎?我當然可以啊就是那個不管是公開或者是秘密只要委員會的主席發函到我們這邊來我們就必須要來面對立法院好 所以也就是說剛剛提出來的這些疑問或疑惑其實都可以在立法院當中被監督沒錯但是如果說像現在有委員提出來說有國外的這些期刊都已經登出來了"},{"start":6736.713,"end":6757.489,"text":"那麼這個會不會變成是我們反過來去指揮人家那所以你們在訂定相關的這樣的一個監督的時候的跟對方是如何來達成一個共識因為畢竟當我們把錢捐到我們友邦的時候的過程當中那麼就是人家在內政當中做處理"},{"start":6758.55,"end":6759.611,"text":"那在內政當中做處理的時候我們怎麼樣訂定這個監督的議程又夠透明通開但是又夠能夠不影響干涉到他國內政"},{"start":6770.155,"end":6794.443,"text":"由紀念跟委員說明就是有一些部分是必須要讓人民知道的比如說我們跟捷克之間簽訂了一個MOU那這個MOU簽訂好了之後那我們在去年的12月1號也告訴國人說有這一個事情我們跟捷克一起去協助那個烏克蘭那這個是必須要去公開的那有關於內容的這個部分"},{"start":6795.343,"end":6811.434,"text":"就是捷克的這家期刊的部分其實他們對外透露的跟我們的新聞稿的性質是一樣的但是至於這個約本本身如果它是列密的話那我們這邊不會對外來提供捷克方面也不會對外來提供"},{"start":6812.154,"end":6838.724,"text":"至於監督方面其實每一個MOU裡面都有一個成立一個共同監督委員會來監督這個執行那這個監督委員會裡面也會有我們的人參與這個是共同監督的事情所以對於監督立法院監督我們或者是說我們的政府在監督這一個事情的執行或者是說對方要跟我們報告那這個事情我們都必須要有百分之百的掌握"},{"start":6839.189,"end":6863.441,"text":"好我知道這個事情吼現在鬧的是連傑克我們的友邦都會認為說奇怪台灣好像先捐了一筆錢給我們之後換是他們的國會議員在質疑他們用錢用的不當這種感覺就很像是我們伸手去講人家家裡的事情但是因為錢來自於我們這裡所以我很明確的想問是那麼如果按照這個合約的話那麼最後他們還是會告訴我們怎麼樣使用這一筆善款"},{"start":6868.303,"end":6872.026,"text":"每半年會有其中報告那如果說是以今年1月你們送進來2月送進來那麼簽訂的期程的話也就是其實6月7月就有可能他們的第一批的使用的善款的狀況會有一個報告對好"},{"start":6895.305,"end":6898.249,"text":"那我們其實還是期待這個報告因為有關於機密的部分我們還是要遵守外交部所核定的這個密的等級我們希望也不要成為未來我們在跟國際上面做一些MOU協定的時候變成是人家質疑我們的一個部分好另外呢其實我在想"},{"start":6912.245,"end":6914.547,"text":"中美之間的貿易戰到底是不是會影響到台灣今天最新的訊息是說拜登宣布了中國產的這些產品要加徵關稅然後當然他也強調要維護台海和平的部分那麼其中當然"},{"start":6928.135,"end":6942.614,"text":"拜登宣布的180億的中國進口商品要開徵新關稅的部分外交部事前有掌握嗎那有了解嗎怎麼來評估現在其實全球在面對中國的時候尤其是以美國為首的這樣整體所形成的這個貿易戰對台灣的影響"},{"start":6945.709,"end":6960.694,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個問題有關於美方要針對中國的這些產品加徵關稅的這個部分都一直有在做討論那也一直讓我們知道那個部分的這些狀況至於細節的部分比如說要加徵100%、25%等等的"},{"start":6963.655,"end":6983.105,"text":"我們有事前有一些資訊但是沒有百分之百的掌握但是知道說這個方向是確定了那即使那個現在是川普政府的話而不是拜登政府的話我相信他們的這個方向也差不多那最主要他們會做這個的事情的原因就是因為他們覺得中國方面有這種"},{"start":6984.405,"end":6987.388,"text":"致於對臺灣會不會有所影響有可能正面也有可能負面"},{"start":6999.858,"end":7026.238,"text":"那負面的部分就是說這個部分會不會造成那個國際經濟的一個動盪那當然我們是很重要的一個依賴國際貿易的國家這個也有可能會影響到我們台灣波及到我們台灣但是正面的這個部分就是說我們台灣類似的這些產品如果具有這種競爭力而且我們沒有做這種不公平的這個競爭的話相信我們台灣在國際社會上面的這個產品的流通還會更多"},{"start":7026.618,"end":7027.038,"text":"接下來請蘇巧惠委員上台質詢"},{"start":7067.234,"end":7067.254,"text":"吳釗燮報告"},{"start":7081.749,"end":7106.278,"text":"今天特別到國防外交因為是您在任期上最後一次到立法院備詢那其實國防外交尤其是在您領導的外交部門真的這8年來確實是做了非常非常多的努力當然這不只是部長一個人的努力這是全體外交部外交相關領域的各位所有同仁共同的努力"},{"start":7106.798,"end":7122.06,"text":"所以才有今天我們有資格有機會有能耐可以說一聲啊我們真的讓世界看見台灣世界的關鍵字一定有台灣我相信部長你一定認同我這句話你帶領了一個了不起的團隊是吧"},{"start":7123.479,"end":7149.024,"text":"非常謝謝委員的肯定那的確最近這幾年如果說除了這些外交的挫折之外不管是國際社會上面什麼重要的這種高峰會幾乎沒有例外都會提到我們台灣那在國際的這種重要的場合台海的和平穩定也都是大家共同的這個語言所以對於這種努力的這個結果我們同仁大家都感到非常的辛苦"},{"start":7149.104,"end":7155.025,"text":"我記得2016年我剛剛有這個機會來到立法院的時候那個時候我們從不敢想像會有如此多的國會議員議長訪問團到立法院來做國會的交流與參訪我們也不敢相信世界上的期刊拿到了這些台灣講到了台灣的時候是會講到台灣的產業台灣的文化台灣能夠對世界衛生做出的種種貢獻這些都是我們過去不敢想像的"},{"start":7178.45,"end":7179.61,"text":"我們更不會想到說這個美國這麼重要的亞太駐親會直接在公開的場合上面說聯合國的決議中國解讀有錯誤其實台灣是應該有機會可以參加WHA這些都是我們過去不敢想的"},{"start":7194.335,"end":7218.251,"text":"那這些真的都是外交同仁方方面面的努力而且我在這裡呢也必須說其實在外交事務上面各位外交同仁你們在承平時期但是領導的帶領的其實就是國家的尊嚴你們在外交場域上捍衛了我們自己的國家就等同於是在戰場上的三軍將士一樣因為有你們的守護"},{"start":7219.252,"end":7240.655,"text":"所以我們的軍人不用真正到第一線的戰場謝謝大家的辛勞你們交到的朋友越多台灣就越安全這是今天在這裡部長最後一次備詢我藉著跟部長的對話也再一次感謝全體所有包括基層外交部同仁真的真的非常的感謝大家"},{"start":7241.095,"end":7257.991,"text":"因為我知道大家其實尤其是在部內也好到了部外每三年一派有些人是攜家帶眷孩子太太不適應外面的環境有些人是拋妻棄子拋夫棄子也可以啦但總而言之每一個人的辛勞"},{"start":7259.552,"end":7276.345,"text":"國人在適當的時候其實回過頭來看都知道謝謝外交部因為不只是大的國家處境甚至是每一個國人在國外遇到急難的時候我們處理過多少的急難救助有多少國人在外面護照掉了臨時生病了受傷了"},{"start":7278.346,"end":7281.67,"text":"各位的不辭辛勞確實挽救了非常多的家庭挽救了非常多的國人的健康與性命這一點"},{"start":7298.587,"end":7313.494,"text":"真的是要真的謝謝外交部全體同仁真的我今天不只是要謝部長要謝謝包括全體的基層人員真的非常感謝好所以感謝的話說到這裡因為我只有8分鐘我是外委委員我必須說"},{"start":7314.694,"end":7337.571,"text":"因為基於這樣的感謝所以當我聽到這個在國防外交委員會的質詢質詢與備詢之間的題目是這樣的時候我感到蠻不可思議的我以為國會殿堂上面的質詢應該是更有水準比如說部長我現在問你部長請問外交部有幾個社外交部經營了幾個社群媒體"},{"start":7338.837,"end":7366.617,"text":"還不少臉書推特部長我問你具體的請給我數字部長你的stress有多少粉絲了部長這是公開資訊你為什麼沒有掌握呢是不是這樣這是需要嗎部長我認為我應該問的是部長在現在這個時代外交部是不是應該經營社群媒體社群媒體對國家的外交影響力到底有多少你可以回答我們嗎"},{"start":7368.22,"end":7389.468,"text":"非常謝謝委員提出來以推特來說因為推特是以國際為面向以國際為導向的一個社交媒體我們的推特到目前為止已經有五十幾萬個追蹤者我們外交部的這些追蹤者來說很多都是政治人物和國際的媒體"},{"start":7390.248,"end":7413.92,"text":"是,你光是上一次中國禁台灣啤酒這篇我覺得你們的回應就非常好在社群平台上面社群平台上本來就應該用幽默的方式回應嘛中國禁台灣啤酒你們就說啊你們錯過了自由美好的滋味很好啊這個所有的人一看就知道這是什麼意思就跟你今天說喔你用強烈的語氣說我一定跟你站到底"},{"start":7415,"end":7426.986,"text":"欸真的就像剛剛楚映委員說的啊這個人家在群眾場上可以這樣說啊我們在幽默的社群平台上不能這樣寫哇這真的是雙標啊這實在是雙標那老實說因為社群媒體讓我們的能見度擴大之後確實台灣的訴求那各個外媒也都可以看到所以部長我真的真的強烈的建議喔"},{"start":7439.913,"end":7450.317,"text":"不管是在這些社群網路的發言發文也好比較特殊性的重要性的有被大家看到的你應該收集層層甚至是你本人其實在非常多的在非常多的國際媒體上面也受過專訪我認為這個其實應該要把它彙整起來彙整起來之後呢那其實就是一個我們這8年外交的定調甚至至少未來也可以參考部長"},{"start":7468.225,"end":7480.28,"text":"這部分我覺得不是你個人的成績所以我覺得你不用不好意思這個是你代表國家我認為應該要收集陳冊部長這是立法委員的質詢你可以同意嗎非常謝謝委員的這個建議那我們這邊來跟同仁討論一下"},{"start":7485.346,"end":7510.639,"text":"在今天早上剛發生的一件事情就是說我前天有那個總統政訓給我那我也發在那個我們的推特上面捷克的參議長在那個message下面有留言那這個就是我們台灣政府跟其他國家的這個高層利用社群媒體互動的一個很好的這個機會那這個是可以強化我們的public messaging和那個外交"},{"start":7510.759,"end":7526.684,"text":"他的語言風格模式本來就要用這樣就像你去捷克你要說捷克語你去日本你要說日語就像你去美國要說英語在社群平台上當然是用社群平台的語言來說話才能夠大家聽得懂這是最基本的道理"},{"start":7527.324,"end":7531.906,"text":"所以我必須說啦其實如果在這裡的質詢能夠是就後面的意義層次來討論實在是會比較高端一點不知道過兩天要舉行國中會考連國中會考都不考填充題跟是非題了我們現在都考素養素養這兩個字知道嗎好啦那部長我最後啦"},{"start":7546.693,"end":7571.803,"text":"那個委員剛剛問的就是說那個把我們接受國際媒體系列撐撐的這個事情這個應該要做啦尤其是我對這個是相當的自豪就是接受國際媒體訪問到目前為止這個禮拜五還會再接受一次那一共是三百二十八次你是代表著大家啦代表著台灣啦我帶領我們所有外交部的同仁集體對國際來發聲讓我們台灣的這個聲音能夠讓國際社會來聽見"},{"start":7576.485,"end":7594.466,"text":"好最後部長剛剛我看到你今天早上收到了禮物是這個台灣這個當季的水果乾這樣的狀況那我覺得那個看起來品牌我是沒有看過但現在正是芒果的季節芒果乾也是蠻好吃的但我覺得這其實大家等一下應該可以開來吃了"},{"start":7596.448,"end":7620.096,"text":"因為有些密件可以開啊而且應該要拿出來趕快開趕快拿出來趕快吃掉它有些密件是不能開的這些大家應該都很清楚基本的公務人員也都很清楚上面有個那麼大的一個字叫做密的那種叫密件開了會有問題此密件非彼密件啊所以我勸那個等一下大家那密件應該蠻好吃的可以趕快吃一吃而且喔"},{"start":7620.896,"end":7621.436,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7657.992,"end":7675.724,"text":"請問外交部長請問部長陳委員好部長好部長我今天想討論一下臺灣參加世界衛生組織的策略部長世界衛生組織秘書長談判賽的任期是到什麼時候"},{"start":7683.845,"end":7698.339,"text":"根據美國前國務卿蓬佩奧在自傳他的說法是說他的賽上位是靠中共來支持那加上中共現在是世衛的主要的捐助國那外交部評估在未來三年內台灣參與WHA的這個機會是樂觀的嗎?"},{"start":7702.803,"end":7723.866,"text":"我覺得這個需要長期的努力我們所要爭取的就是有更多的國家政府議會以及當地的重要的人物能夠支持我們這個努力的過程大家都看到逐漸累積成果如果說支持的人數國家數夠多的話我想這個就是水到渠成的時候"},{"start":7724.383,"end":7749.785,"text":"我想跟部長還有我們所有的民眾我覺得還是談一下台灣參加世界衛生組織他可能過程中會受到中國的各式各樣的打壓但是我們不能夠拒戰我們不能夠害怕在這個辯論過程中爭取的這個機會所以包含剛才我們提到的社群媒體的發聲把這樣的中共的荒謬之處來說出來透過社群媒體這些都是非常正確的做法"},{"start":7750.405,"end":7765.943,"text":"所以當我問部長熱觀不熱觀的時候我們是要問的是我們要不要參與的這一張態度我們這樣子的說法我們這樣子的narrative是怎麼樣我們必須在論述上面能夠跟中共對抗我們未來才會有機會或許今年沒有辦法或許明年沒有辦法"},{"start":7766.664,"end":7766.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7783.291,"end":7785.433,"text":"但中共外交部發言人汪文斌前天在臉書的粉專上說"},{"start":7805.094,"end":7820.03,"text":"我們看到這些相關的文字是說九二共識是台灣參與WHA的政治基礎中國在一中原則下妥善安排台灣地區參與全球衛生事務尤其是2023年中央批准全台醫學技術專家21件申請參加WHA的技術活動"},{"start":7822.745,"end":7846.901,"text":"部長外交部對這些的言論的立場是什麼有關於我們去參與世界衛生組織如果說要基於九二共識那依照中國所說的九二共識就是接受我們台灣當成是他們的一部分而且要接受一國兩制如果說要這樣子才能夠去參加世界衛生組織的話這個對我們台灣來講是極端不公平的事情"},{"start":7850.623,"end":7850.743,"text":"沒錯,跟中國無關"},{"start":7878.268,"end":7900.35,"text":"所以他們所寫的就是錯、假、亂、訊息那我們也希望社群媒體在這個時候就要直接扮演他的角色直接在他下面散播的就直接來把它寫上去那我們希望透過這樣子的方式那第一時間給這些中外的媒體讓所有的人都知道說這是錯、假、亂的訊息那把我們嚴正的立場講出來"},{"start":7901.631,"end":7926.867,"text":"接下來的社群媒體尤其是推特我們會針對那個世界衛生大會的這些相關的狀況我們又會有一系列的這些推文那也希望部長能夠完整交接這個外交部的這個相關的社群媒體給我們下一任部長然後並且把這些重要的提點用備忘物的方式給部長下一任部長讓他們知道說快速來針對錯假亂訊息的回應在社群媒體上面是非常重要的"},{"start":7927.908,"end":7949.569,"text":"那再來就是1971年這個我們失去聯合國的席次那包含在1972年是被迫退出世界衛生組織90年代末我們李總統採取彈性外交都是這樣子的無功而返那當然2003年的時候SARS的時候中國不只反對台灣加入那個殺主抗海說誰理你們這些都是傷透台灣人民的心啊"},{"start":7950.829,"end":7975.319,"text":"中國政府不只是這樣子講中國政府還在國際社會上面去說台灣人民的健康福祉是由中國政府來照顧的像這種謊話他們都敢講對 他們都敢講我們也要敢去來去把他們的任何一個都給予餘力的嚴正的博士我那時候在當總統府的副秘書長我對著國際媒體講It's a shameless lie沒錯"},{"start":7975.859,"end":7996.688,"text":"沒錯,這個確實是這樣子,那我們從參與WHA也好,到WHO,我們每一個想做的事情就是希望台灣can help,就是台灣能夠扮演一個積極的角色,不管在醫療,在健康、政策上面,包括我記得江醫師他好像,江冠宇醫師之前代表台灣的世界醫師會,那出席"},{"start":7997.348,"end":8016.586,"text":"執行委員會．針對抗生素的濫用．氣候變遷的議題都發表聲明就是說我們參與是有目的性．是有任務性．是希望對世界．對國際社會是做出一些貢獻所以我們是希望說未來我們推動臺灣加入WHA的這個遊說團能夠有更多外交部的人員來更積極的參與然後來去全力參與各個全球衛生機制的訴求"},{"start":8021.53,"end":8049.839,"text":"那除了幫助我們自己之外也是幫助別人我特別要談到臺烏的醫療合作我們今天有談到很多跟捷克那為什麼要跟捷克合作最主要的原因是因為我們跟烏克蘭直接的那個直接的聯繫是有問題的那所以必須要透過一個跟烏克蘭友好的這個國家也跟我們關係非常好的國家來進行第一他們現在是在戰爭狀態第二我們沒有直接的這個大使館能夠來提供直接的協助我們當然是需要"},{"start":8050.419,"end":8066.88,"text":"有閃的第三國來透過各種資源進入並且要知道說我們要把資源運進烏克蘭本身就是要遇到很大的困難啊你怎麼知道俄羅斯方面會不會在各個奇怪的地方來去做出干擾的動作所以有些機密有些密件是必須要去保護的"},{"start":8067.581,"end":8096.629,"text":"特別是在安全的議題上面特別是在烏克蘭的議題上面我們要面臨的不僅僅是俄羅斯的侵擾而已還有包含中國的力量那習近平最近在訪問歐洲的時候專門就是想要削弱跟分化歐洲塞爾維亞、匈牙利哪一個不是在歐盟、歐洲裡面是處心積慮的在削弱歐盟的力量的這很明顯所以我們希望說不要憂慘慰饑那不管是透過捷克或者是其他中東歐國家對我國比較友善的"},{"start":8096.969,"end":8117.924,"text":"我們都必須要把資源完整的運送到烏克蘭因為烏克蘭的勝利就是嚇阻中國的能量進入台灣的一個最好的方式這個是我最近在Foreign Affairs上面寫那篇文章的最主要的那個立論所以委員講的我百分之百贊成我想下次部長我們再一起共同撰寫來去投稿好了之前"},{"start":8119.105,"end":8140.814,"text":"烏克蘭的自由民主聯盟我想也有拜會部長也有拜會總統跟準總統那我想在他們拜會我的部分他副主席有說因為烏克蘭又有一個過去的發展模式那可能在科技跟醫療方面的科研能力還是需要更多的提升所以我是希望說台灣能夠在相關的領域合作特別是在傷兵後續的治療"},{"start":8141.354,"end":8169.815,"text":"所以包含我們的這個直接的支援或者是包含醫師上面的協助醫護人員上面協助我作學可以透過衛福部等等我們一起來思考方向因為我看國和會的資料現在主要的合作跟烏克蘭的合作是以農業農資為主那難民是在羅馬尼亞有兒童社會心理支持的人到援助我想說未來可不可以在越南菲律賓印尼索馬地蘭等地一樣我們有沒有辦法在烏克蘭當地或者是周圍友好的國家推動醫事人員的訓練計畫"},{"start":8171.676,"end":8197.104,"text":"這個是我們正在那個推動當中那我們最主要是透過NGO因為政府跟政府之間的確是那個聯繫是受到限制的那這個推動的項目就包括說燒燙傷或者是說那個創傷症候群的這些治療等等的那我想我們台灣的那個NGO的這個能量是相當的龐大那我們外交部這邊會協助我們的這個NGO來促成這個事情"},{"start":8197.904,"end":8212.965,"text":"好謝謝那接下來跟外交有關係但是跟安全議題也是有點關係要考量到未來我們外交跟國家安全其實都是一體化那普丁他撤換國防部長稍微一股換了一個經濟背景出身的文人部長"},{"start":8214.071,"end":8229.645,"text":"我擔心的是說這個文能部長他所顯現出來的可能性就是未來俄羅斯可能會朝向經濟戰貿易戰資源消耗戰這方面去做處理所以我想請教部長那也是我們"},{"start":8230.546,"end":8246.905,"text":"可能是未來的,不是可能,已經宣布了嘛,國安會秘書長那針對這些東西,這些事件,這一些已經發生,正在發生的可能的安全的挑戰你有沒有什麼相關的因應方式,你要怎麼樣跟未來的國安外交體系做合作"},{"start":8248.469,"end":8267.085,"text":"非常謝謝委員那以現在國安會的角色他就是在那個部會之間的這個協調尤其是在比較重要的涉及到外交和國防的這個部會裡面必須要去做一些整合去找尋出我們最好的這個政策的這個方向"},{"start":8267.865,"end":8283.255,"text":"所以未來到國安會區之後也會秉持這個國安會向來的這個角色希望能夠跟外交部之間跟國防部以及陸委會之間都保持非常密切的這種友好的聯繫讓我們的這個政策是在協調之下產生的"},{"start":8285.459,"end":8301.437,"text":"最後 最近在上個月上上個月我們訪日的時候那當然有主要是在訪問日本的國會議員那有多位國會議員有談到針對未來的外交特別是對日的外交的部分"},{"start":8301.957,"end":8328.28,"text":"那蕭美琴準副總統那可能在一週之後就會正式上任那他們也提到是說因為在這一次蕭美琴準總統準副總統在訪歐訪美的過程當中他們覺得有點遺憾就是說欸怎麼沒有去訪問日本那我想請問齁這個部分對日本的這個關係那未來我們的蕭副總統在外交領域上面也是設立很多會有什麼樣的方向"},{"start":8330.403,"end":8350.697,"text":"這個基本的方向就是說那個肖副總統他也是被賦予這種高度的這個責任在外交和國防的這個領域上面都能夠來協助我們各個部會協助我們國安會所以未來不管是對日對美等等的那我相信那個肖副總統他會扮演非常重要的角色那我想"},{"start":8351.317,"end":8361.887,"text":"目前的所有的這些政府的部門的首長跟蕭副總統之間也有非常好的這種合作的關係所以我相信他的這個角色以及他的這個貢獻度應該是會很大"},{"start":8364.508,"end":8390.134,"text":"非常期待因為我們接下來大概是包含林佳龍未來的外長那還有吳部長那未來是國安會秘書長加上蕭副總統基本上都在外交領域上面都有相當的涉獵特別是蕭副總統蕭大使曾經在美國的這個駐美的時間也是蠻長的那麼希望對日本的關係因為接下來可以很明顯的看到整個這個第一島鏈菲律賓臺灣跟日本"},{"start":8391.914,"end":8411.864,"text":"那我們在加強第一島鏈的關係跟安全保障的合作是非常重要的我們當然是要對美外交的加強之外我們就在我們的鄰國一個在北一個在南那他是我們安全上面的屏障不管在海洋資源在入海空上面的情報的交換都很重要所以我們把這個我們訪問的時候國會議員訪問的時候的一些"},{"start":8414.966,"end":8415.086,"text":"當然,非常謝謝委員"},{"start":8442.386,"end":8443.086,"text":"有請部長請部長"},{"start":8469.345,"end":8477.501,"text":"關於參與WHA這個部分今天已經是5月15號了那基本上是不是已經確定"},{"start":8479.83,"end":8489.361,"text":"今年無法出席這個WHA那根據這個2024年的WHA舉辦的期間是5月27到6月1號根據過去的經驗在這麼短的時間裡不可能再索要了"},{"start":8500.214,"end":8513.141,"text":"那當然過去我們採取的補救的方法是台灣代表團在場外和其他的國家裡面舉辦了雙邊的會談例如2017年有總共59場那另外2018年有60場2019年有71場那請問今年有幾場在雙邊的會談裡面有幾場"},{"start":8526.599,"end":8553.555,"text":"現在還沒有因為現在還在推動當中所以會有幾場我現在沒有辦法跟大家說明那委員剛剛提的沒有錯就是說我們會利用其他國家的這個高階訪團都在日內瓦的這個機會跟其他國家舉行這種雙邊的會談那其實還有一種方式就是多邊的這個work shop也曾經來進行那這些對我們跟其他國家的這種衛生合作的關係是非常有幫助的我們會持續的來推動"},{"start":8554.696,"end":8574.884,"text":"今天為什麼要談到這個第一個我們在2017年之前在馬英九總統的時代就曾經參加過我們WHA也進入到這個WHO能夠再進入到觀察員的一個身份"},{"start":8575.95,"end":8602.891,"text":"比如說像我們原住民少數民族在聯合國裡面就是有觀察員的身份所以這樣子一個這麼珍貴的能夠吐血我們在台灣能夠在世界衛生組織裡面能夠發光發熱可是2017年之後到至今就已經沒有這樣的一個進入到這樣的一個大會"},{"start":8603.872,"end":8630.495,"text":"那是不是在當然各國裡面替我們講了很多的話對我們國內都是講一些宣導的一個立場當然是好事可是我們為什麼不借用美國因為我們目前我們執政長一直對著美國親美的角度是不是可以請教他"},{"start":8631.175,"end":8648.684,"text":"由大國跟我們中共來對談你們認為是因為中共的阻擾那是不是要借用美國這麼大的一個國家來跟中共來對談是不是讓我們有機會重新的加入WHA這個組織讓我們台灣"},{"start":8653.546,"end":8674.179,"text":"進入到世界衛生組織的一個立場而不是一直採用雙邊的會談跟會議你來回答非常謝謝委員提出的這個問題這個的確是非常的重要那美國在過去這麼十多年來一直都有跟我們這種國組的這個對話國際組織參與的這個對話那在對話之後也具體的提出的一些方式來協助我們"},{"start":8681.443,"end":8709.555,"text":"那最近這一次就是針對2758號決議案有很重要的這種發言但是將我們的國際參與交由其他的國家來幫我們協商的話那我想這個可能必須要去重新思考參與國際組織是我們政府要代表我們台灣人民的這個事情我們的這個權益不應該交由其他的國家來替我們來施行那我想我們的權益是掌握在我們的手中"},{"start":8710.376,"end":8732.258,"text":"現在目前就是因為沒有辦法進入所以我們也要借力使力啊對我們最主要的這個方向在這邊也跟委員報告就是我們希望能夠吸引更多的這些國家來支持我們在參與世界衛生組織那我們吸引到的這個國家去為我們去聯合進洽"},{"start":8733.459,"end":8734.66,"text":"這是一個國人關切而且非常很重視的看待那我希望下一個林佳榮部長"},{"start":8755.499,"end":8771.99,"text":"希望能夠努力好不好有關於這個外交部告我們這個徐巧欣委員立法委員本席本席非常不解的地方也對我們部長"},{"start":8774.912,"end":8792.545,"text":"對國會提告立法委員是一個重大的事件因為目前外交部控告有關捷克簽訂的一千萬美金援助烏克蘭其中指定的百分之三十到四十之間的採購"},{"start":8794.206,"end":8806.396,"text":"臺灣的一彩有圖利特定的廠商的嫌疑外交部在5月7日赴北檢提告習曉新委員泄密北檢已列入他字案"},{"start":8807.301,"end":8831.824,"text":"我們剛剛習曉欣送了密件我們密件 我們外交部裡面的密件有兩種第一個是國家的密件第二個是公務員重要的密件但是它列入在什麼樣的密件我不曉得但是你們向來 你們的密件都向來都是密件這個是不解的地方"},{"start":8832.845,"end":8859.815,"text":"那另外就是我要特別講的就是是不是這個只是由法條司來提供提告給徐喬欣另外就是我特別要講的是行政部門控告立法委員這是一個行政權透過司法權企圖迫使立法委員的權利限縮監督的權利那這可說是中華民國史上第一個"},{"start":8860.875,"end":8881.591,"text":"第一次在民主國家極為駭人聽聞的事件請部長務必講清楚公告的完整決策過程這樣未來若要追究責任或要論功洗腸才知道要找誰另外我特別要講的是"},{"start":8884.022,"end":8912.777,"text":"行政部門控告立法委員的是一個大事無論結果如何我這個地方特別要講的未來產生重大的影響已經夠了我們藉此機會來明確的來誰是歸屬責任這件事未來可能有三件事情會發生第一件習巧芹委員可能敗訴第二個外交部可能敗訴第三"},{"start":8913.973,"end":8937.154,"text":"外交部可能會撤告但是如果請問一下部長如果習巧芯委員在敗訴的過程他必須要負法律責任對不對是因為違反了相關的新法的規定那請問如果是外交部敗訴的話誰要負政治的責任你來回答"},{"start":8938.218,"end":8954.959,"text":"這是一個假設性的問題。剛剛我已經問你了,如果習委員他在被提告的過程裡面他敗訴了,他負法律責任,你剛剛說是,那如果外交部的"},{"start":8956.532,"end":8959.216,"text":"有關於未來的這個狀況如果說是"},{"start":8971.351,"end":8976.554,"text":"我自己也是政治的學者我拿到政治學的博士"},{"start":8997.024,"end":9025.491,"text":"就行政機構跟立法機構之間的關係是相互制衡是一個對立而相互制衡的關係而不是說永遠是由立法部門來制衡行政部門所以這種關係之下的話大家也要彼此相互的尊重今天你是在立法院背刑立法院背刑但是你提告我們國會的立法委員的立場"},{"start":9026.611,"end":9036.839,"text":"這是一個創造了歷史的一個害人害文的一個問題如果說是違反了刑法第132條的規定而我們沒有去處理的話可能受到影響是我們的國家利益"},{"start":9043.624,"end":9061.601,"text":"外交部長林佳龍來接這個爛攤子因為這個事情明明就是在期刊裡面都已經彰顯一千萬的美金來援助烏克蘭這是事實所以我們今天來講"},{"start":9064.141,"end":9078.335,"text":"我們國會希望是良性的一個表達人民的訴求而不是製造現在製造國會之間跟你們行政部門之間的尷尬的場面來把問題丟給下一屆的下一屆的這個下一個"},{"start":9083.38,"end":9101.45,"text":"如果說是一個文件這個是機密的然後把這個文件秀出來的話這個很明顯的就是違反了刑法第132條的這個規定那我們行政部門我們外交部這邊是受害者那可能我們的國家利益也會受到損害對於這件事情我們外交部沒有不處理的這個空間"},{"start":9103.615,"end":9119.669,"text":"你們現在不要混淆了國人的視聽今天我們不會立法委是授以人民國票數來站在這個舞台上來執行執行你們有沒有以公以平以公正"},{"start":9120.61,"end":9146.299,"text":"這是一個國人看待但是你們是專業行政部門不要去毀謠視聽因為你提告了立法委員這是一個重大的政治事件也是重大的事件那剛剛我才問你如果你們敗訴我一再一再講如果你們敗訴是誰要承擔是你來承擔還是林佳龍來承擔你來回答這個議題啊這個假設性的問題"},{"start":9148.74,"end":9164.212,"text":"不是假設性剛剛我已經問你了如果習曉新立法委員如果他是敗訴的時候我問你你說是負法律責任那請問這個是一個這是一個答案那現在我訪問你"},{"start":9164.952,"end":9192.564,"text":"外交部萬一敗訴的時候是林小龍負責呢還是你負責這個要跟國人交代嗎也跟委員報告一下就是說我們外交部去討論了有關於像這種把密件秀出來給記者的這個做法那這個很明確的違反了刑法第132條的這個規定我們認為說在這個事情上面我們的檢察官或者是我們的法官應該會"},{"start":9193.524,"end":9196.267,"text":"若依照客觀的情形來處理,那關於事情的這個內容,我們不需要再多發言。"},{"start":9216.427,"end":9223.653,"text":"這個是假設性的問題我想我們外交部如果說在這個意義上面這個已經是一個公訴的這個狀況那個我們的那個地檢署已經take over你在毀謠視聽了謝謝接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢"},{"start":9261.646,"end":9263.848,"text":"請外交部吳部長請吳部長同委員好"},{"start":9271.874,"end":9284.63,"text":"部長今天我看了前面幾個委員大家在你這應該是最後一次在外交國防委員會的詢答那當然我們今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題可是其實確實這兩個禮拜"},{"start":9289.314,"end":9304,"text":"針對這個密件的洩密的事件我認為這是一個非常非常嚴肅的事情那尤其是未來即便可能部長不在外交部了不管後面的次長或後面的新任的部長來"},{"start":9305.561,"end":9331.216,"text":"外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件這裡面涉及到相關該如何監督該如何維護這個國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼去處理的這個我覺得是非常嚴肅的問題因為這個問題沒有處理好後面連帶的其實可能是我們的國安或者是我們的國際關係都會受到影響的事情所以我這邊有幾件事情要跟部長再來請教"},{"start":9333.337,"end":9360.718,"text":"在周末的時候我們看到一個新聞那個新聞上面寫這個國民黨的吳宗憲召委就司法委員會的吳宗憲召委那他說這個案子是非告訴乃論檢察官沒有辦法這個外部沒辦法撤告所以他建議國民黨的委員要輪番的來給外交部壓力我今年已經領教到了"},{"start":9362.504,"end":9375.368,"text":"來給外交部壓力然後施壓外交部逼得外交部要自己劇狀跟檢察官說我希望不起訴外交部希望不起訴我要這邊說我今天不特別針對個人但我要先請問現在國民黨的吳釗燮 吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼"},{"start":9389.086,"end":9415.829,"text":"我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉到那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種"},{"start":9417.11,"end":9444.266,"text":"違反刑法第132條的這個事證如此明確把這個秀出來所有的這個媒體都有拍到那在這種狀況之下我們外交部是沒有不處理的這個空間不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為勢的做法"},{"start":9445.453,"end":9455.327,"text":"來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題"},{"start":9463.851,"end":9486.469,"text":"第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個"},{"start":9488.57,"end":9517.218,"text":"這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題"},{"start":9519.537,"end":9525.481,"text":"徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把列密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部"},{"start":9550.703,"end":9559.309,"text":"徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個"},{"start":9562.879,"end":9591.362,"text":"這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有 其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好 我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開"},{"start":9592.463,"end":9611.97,"text":"其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法"},{"start":9620.862,"end":9625.225,"text":"現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密建如果未來密建的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話"},{"start":9651.837,"end":9677.832,"text":"那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所狹下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員"},{"start":9682.284,"end":9706.653,"text":"我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情"},{"start":9708.712,"end":9708.732,"text":"這個對我們來講"},{"start":9733.348,"end":9760.348,"text":"所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這一次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府"},{"start":9761.766,"end":9781.929,"text":"華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛"},{"start":9783.752,"end":9806.091,"text":"尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人譬如說捐款給花蓮這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海"},{"start":9807.179,"end":9813.733,"text":"美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到"},{"start":9817.162,"end":9841.752,"text":"第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助"},{"start":9843.433,"end":9859.755,"text":"那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們也看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍"},{"start":9860.635,"end":9887.679,"text":"甚至有沒有機會再往越南再往菲律賓到越南這一段來延伸讓第一島鏈民主國家聯盟能夠更加的堅實這件事情部長你有什麼看法?非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分"},{"start":9887.739,"end":9890.441,"text":"現在在這些合作區確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部不管國防部或者是我們的海巡只要有機會我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖"},{"start":9915.097,"end":9932.332,"text":"也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實"},{"start":9933.433,"end":9954.35,"text":"好 那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候"},{"start":9955.03,"end":9981.706,"text":"再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好會我們會這樣子的方向來努力那我想未來還是有希望能夠請那個委員提供我們一些寶貴意見的這個機會那我在這邊也要說明就是說所有的這些委員的這個說明或者是建議的話對我們來講都是一個非常好的參考即使反對黨的這個委員比如像陳永康委員那他的很多的意見都是非常的寶貴所以未來"},{"start":9982.466,"end":9983.047,"text":"謝謝 現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10409.943,"end":10411.465,"text":"主席好,有請外交部長請部長"},{"start":10440.031,"end":10458.685,"text":"委員好部長好首先針對前天大陸國台辦發言的陳彬華在記者會上說台灣方面沒有辦法參加WHA完全是民進黨當局造成的是在此本席也要幫外交部說句公道話謝謝委員"},{"start":10460.606,"end":10479.679,"text":"國台辦這樣發言其實真的是蠻荒謬的而且蠻可笑的完全打擊我們全部的辛苦的外交人員還有醫藥界的共同的努力世界衛生組織裡面的序言裡面就有講了享受最高而能獲至的健康標準是人人基本的權利之一"},{"start":10480.74,"end":10498.87,"text":"不因種族、宗教、政治、信仰、經濟還有社會的情境各異而分宣誓。大陸用這種政治綁架臺灣人民的健康、綁架臺灣人民參與國際社會共享醫療資源的成果的做法,其實是赤裸裸的侵犯了世界衛生組織基本原則。"},{"start":10499.91,"end":10503.514,"text":"所以站在其實國家的整體利益和全民的健康上面我們確實是不應該分黨派應該要團結一次讓世界看到台灣部長想請問一下你對中共這一種把政治放在人民健康之上的行為有什麼看法"},{"start":10516.979,"end":10516.999,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":10531.978,"end":10535.7,"text":"實際上不是經過他們的同意,而是我們自己去申請的。"},{"start":10554.81,"end":10576.779,"text":"那他們也說中國政府會好好的照顧我們台灣人的健康福祉那我們台灣的人民的反應就是說你爛不要把他欺負你那你就慢行啊那所以中國政府常常會在國際社會上面說這些錯誤的這個話那每一次只要他們有任何這個錯誤的話我們外交部這邊都會予以反駁那剛剛非常謝謝委員的這一番正義支持"},{"start":10578.066,"end":10584.329,"text":"謝謝部長努力那我再來請教部長由於美國在COVID-19的流行期間發現WHO嚴重的失能甚至因為政治的立場的關係導致公衛機制沒有辦法很好的運作所以拜登政府也花了三年的時間推出了美國全球健康安全的戰略然後這個戰略裡面主要是以美國聯邦政府為主題希望達到三個目標"},{"start":10604.96,"end":10620.251,"text":"第一個是藉由雙方合作強化全球的衛生能力第二個基地政治的承諾與基金第三個是整合所有的衛生安全行動然後從2015年開始臺灣跟NIT就已經共同推動了一個GCTF的計畫全球有128個參與的國家包含了公共的衛生還有人道救援還有災害的防救這些議題基本上就是讓美國拉著臺灣實質的參與"},{"start":10635.141,"end":10642.331,"text":"包含了公共衛生在內的全球事務那去年2023年臺美日澳釋放在WHA期間在日內瓦透過GCTF的平台舉辦了國際的研討會強化國際的依偎的合作然後"},{"start":10652.724,"end":10659.608,"text":"臺美日澳四方首都都是用抗疫的經驗還有公衛的專業深入交流大家也認為這樣的全球來這樣強化全球夥伴的關係是促成公衛安全的重要性那我想請教部長一下我們是不是能夠透過這個GCTF去響應拜登政府推出的美國全球健康安全戰略呢"},{"start":10676.318,"end":10695.159,"text":"還是外交部目前有沒有什麼規劃讓我們一起參與到美國這樣的全球健康安全戰略有關於GCTF是我們在2015年跟美國成立的一個協定他叫做Global Cooperation and Training Framework就是利用我們台灣的強項不管是在公衛在婦女父權在環保或者是說"},{"start":10698.322,"end":10712.956,"text":"在涉及Cyber Security的各個不同的層面能夠讓我們台灣的這個強項跟美國合作來貢獻這個區域那到目前為止這個表現都非常的好也受到全世界各國的這個讚譽"},{"start":10714.497,"end":10740.142,"text":"那委員剛剛提到的就是說藉用GCTF來強化我們跟美國的合作來推動全球的這個衛生方面的這種合作的話那我想我們會具以來推動其實那個公衛的這一題會持續不斷的在GCTF的這個workshop上面來呈現那我們台灣的這個公衛的能力是受到全球的讚譽甚至是在COVID的時候很多的國家都淪陷了"},{"start":10740.802,"end":10740.822,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":10762.694,"end":10767.235,"text":"那我再問一個問題部長這幾天立陶宛這個東歐小國的總統選舉突然受到臺灣民眾的關注那當然不外乎就是他的總統老塞達希望臺灣的代表處更名為臺北的代表處這件事情然後媒體報導因為前幾天也看到部長在廣播節目上面談到"},{"start":10783.499,"end":10808.135,"text":"立陶宛的選舉的時候有提到在野黨勝選的機會比較大但總統選舉前其實老賽亞的民調都是大幅領先其他候選人那前一天的第一輪的投票結果也是確實是如此的那想請教部長一下就是說是外交部掌握的情質是有錯誤呢還是是你有意想要安撫台灣民眾的心情然後可以不然的簡短的說明一下嗎"},{"start":10808.715,"end":10835.067,"text":"很間斷的說明第一個就是那個立陶宛是280萬人口的國家他雖然說他的人口不是很多但是以道德的勇氣來說這是一個超級強國那我去那邊訪問的時候我就當面跟他們的這種國會議員等等的說他們是一個moral superpower因為他們所展現的這種對抗強權對抗蘇聯對抗中國的這種精神是很多的國家都比不上的"},{"start":10835.767,"end":10857.777,"text":"這是第一點那第二點就是說我們跟他們討論到最後有一個協議就是說我們台灣在那邊的代表處是叫做the Taiwanese representative office就是我們台灣這邊販做的台灣代表處那這個是經過雙方同意的那這個問題也是行政部門之間也就是他們的那個這種"},{"start":10859.838,"end":10860.478,"text":"我認為這個改變的可能性很小"},{"start":10880.769,"end":10895.933,"text":"即使接下來在8月的時候他們會有一場新的那個國會議員的選舉可能會有一個新的政府那可是對於我們跟那個未來可能這種阻隔的這個新政府之間的這種討論的這個狀況來看的話會改名的這個機率很低"},{"start":10899.894,"end":10911.726,"text":"我們跟立陶宛之間已經有各式各樣的這種合作的這些項目那這些項目對立陶宛來說也是非常重要的那所以我對我們接下來跟立陶宛的這個關係是非常的有信心"},{"start":10912.654,"end":10928.457,"text":"好因為其實立陶宛是歐洲國家中其實我是覺得他是一個很難得與台灣友好而且甚至在被中國打壓之後外交發生困境的時候是非常相挺台灣的國家但是剛才部長所講的但是據我了解那個立陶宛是半總統制的總統是負責國家的外交國防事務所以台灣辦事處是否可以更名這件事情其實是總統的職者職權他可以"},{"start":10940.68,"end":10940.84,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10958.786,"end":10966.488,"text":"然後塞爾達最後的勝選的機率非常的大因為剛才我也講了這個應該是總統的職權所以他順利當選總統之後要求臺灣辦事處真的把他更名為臺北辦事處那這樣的話那我們如果他還有這種堅持的話那會不會影響到我們兩國的情誼還有外交關係的生變呢還有他這樣你覺得說他更名的這樣的機率會有多大呢因為畢竟是他的職權"},{"start":10989.29,"end":11005.567,"text":"我剛有一個小小的資訊要跟委員更正一下他們的那個國會大選是10月那我們也跟各個不同的政黨包括現在的在野黨都有很深入的這些溝通那包括現在的在野黨現在的執政黨當然更不用說現在的那個在野黨"},{"start":11006.408,"end":11018.397,"text":"他們對於強化跟台灣的關係持續來推動各式各樣的這些合作那他們也都抱持很高度的興趣所以接下來我們跟那個立陶宛之間的關係應該能夠維繫而且持續的加強"},{"start":11022.22,"end":11050.587,"text":"至於那個立陶宛總統的這些看起來比較像是選舉語言的這些東西我們當然是會加以關注但是畢竟權力是在內閣的手上所以內閣對這個事情是有發言權和最後的這個決定權那目前看不出來說他們的內閣在這件事情上面會做任何的這個討論但是無論如何我們還是會持續的關注那以個人來說我對這個是相當有信心的"},{"start":11051.027,"end":11051.608,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長"},{"start":11081.826,"end":11093.327,"text":"委員好部長好今天辛苦了今天我覺得因為我們的主席他排的這個是WHA我認為這是一個非常重要的議題"},{"start":11094.599,"end":11123.205,"text":"但是在這個之前也是因為這幾個禮拜國人非常關心這一個洩密相關的案件那我在上一次次長來的時候其實也有問過其實我覺得這不是不能討論它的確是一個嚴肅的問題就是說我們的確可以去討論說加密等等之類的問題這確實是一個全民都關心的但很明顯的以今天來講即使是這個可能想要幫忙護航的委員來台上看起來好像也都沒有問到這些關鍵"},{"start":11125.066,"end":11141.801,"text":"他可能就是問說你知不知道到底有幾家廠商跟新聞知不知道一致我想問部長因為以前我也有承辦這個外交部相關的一些影響行動的活動對不對那我想問部長知不知道我們那時候送印的手冊找的是有幾家影印的廠商"},{"start":11144.562,"end":11167.127,"text":"我常常在笑,就是說我的腦袋裡面就好像Memory Chips它的那個容量是有限制所以如果我說我拼命去吸收那些我腦袋到最後是不能用的是啊,但是今天他就在問譬如說你知不知道我那時候外匯照了幾樣菜是不是在規避這個政府採購法所以呢,我覺得這種問法其實是說真的不入流"},{"start":11168.027,"end":11169.489,"text":"蘇琦,為什麼要戴彩帶,張天青講過什麼,我覺得這跟他無關。嚴肅一點我們來講,在這件事情上面,我們今天外交部講的是132條。"},{"start":11182.824,"end":11200.84,"text":"因為我在跟次長的時候也有講到就是132條它叫做國防以外因秘密所以因秘密這三個字其實它絕對有一個解釋的空間就到底什麼叫做秘密但那時候我也跟次長提醒就是以外交部的角色來講它一定是形式認定是不是秘密它不是實質"},{"start":11201.921,"end":11225.032,"text":"為什麼呢?因為一旦今天他發現上面蓋了一個密件一旦對外交部今天發現有人竟然把這個密件洩漏出去了對他來講形式上就一定是洩密如果今天外交部不去告發的話那反而會形成問題反而是要獨指嘛所以如果說今天要給外交部施壓說今天明明有一個蓋密件的東西結果竟然被送出去了然後你還不能夠去告發這絕對會有獨指的問題"},{"start":11228.234,"end":11250.051,"text":"但是我們在機密這件事情上面其實最主要有好幾個法律我有看到在前幾天這個趙少康他有提到說要罕修這個三大法國家機密保護法兩岸人民關係條例還有反滲透法我在這邊其實我覺得很奇怪的一件事情就是這三部法律未必跟今天這個案件有關係"},{"start":11251.152,"end":11274.05,"text":"因為我們今天要直接說這個東西是不是機密是一個公務機密它其實是有一個文書管理規則這個文書管理規則一旦核定了之後呢它本身就是一個密件那至於它有沒有跟國家機密保護法相關有沒有競合那完全是另外一件事所以我完全不是很清楚就是說這個趙少康為什麼要提這三個所以很明顯又是想要用這個事情來做一個政治操作"},{"start":11274.79,"end":11300.413,"text":"那我擔心啦,所以我先幫這個部長演練一下,因為今天登記的人也多啦等一下可能就馬上會有人問說,部長你知不知道國家機密保護法第五條之一規定的是什麼?可能我要看一下對,可能不知道對不對?那既然你會不知道這件事情,你的機密都跟這個核定有關,你連法條都不知道那你這個做什麼部長?待會可能就會有這種情形出現啦那我先告訴大家國家機密保護法根本就沒有第五條之一啦"},{"start":11301.854,"end":11324.225,"text":"但是我覺得就是說我們今天要好好討論這件事情的時候確實文書管理規則這一個算是一個行政規則他今天在和密的這個過程當中他到底有什麼樣的問題他跟現行的法律有沒有什麼不合之處這是我們立法院應該要討論的也就是說如果今天認為文書處理規則訂的不好那是立法委員的責任"},{"start":11325.285,"end":11350.903,"text":"那怎麼會是一個公務員根據規則然後弄了一個密件結果現在說要威脅這個公務員站出來我覺得這個是完全不合理的事情不知道部長同不同意所以就花了一點時間先解決了這個前面大家的爭議的問題但接下來我想問WHA而且剛好今天這個國台辦又有發出了一些聲明那目前來講我前面這個我先跳過因為這個是布林肯之前針對這一個"},{"start":11352.845,"end":11353.386,"text":"但在2023年呢我看這一個"},{"start":11368.045,"end":11395.025,"text":"我們的外交部的這個新聞稿在這邊就是說中國呢這個極其動員古巴與巴基斯坦代表他對聯合國的2758號以及WHA第25號的決議作出扭曲錯誤的一個政治性解釋所以也就是說呢在2023年依照外交部的這個新聞稿很明顯真正讓我們不能夠去這個WHA的對象可能是中國以及他發動的盟友"},{"start":11395.606,"end":11403.868,"text":"這是一年前的事情這一年一直到2024這一年當中我們目前來講改善這件事情的措施大概有哪些呢?"},{"start":11405.228,"end":11427.293,"text":"最主要的就是說我們外交部門以及國安部門去跟美方進行討論的時候讓他們知道說2758號決議案其實這個就是那個WHA第25.1號決議案是內容是一致的跟他們提到說中國是不斷的利用這個決議案不斷的去擴張這個決議案導致很多的國家相信"},{"start":11427.853,"end":11445.915,"text":"那因為在我們的努力之下美國的政府在最近這段期間也對外說明了他們的這個立場包括說這個決議案跟中國的一個中國原則是不一樣的那這個也沒有決定台灣的這個主權地位這個也沒有影響到我們台灣跟其他國家的這種"},{"start":11447.176,"end":11447.216,"text":"﹚國際社會聲援"},{"start":11465.435,"end":11491.402,"text":"也就是說我們針對我們的盟友相關的發言等等之類的應該是這一年努力的成果那這個呢其實在上一次這一個應該不是上一次了已經是3月20號了已經一陣子以前這個時候我在質詢的時候呢到時候部長也有提到就是要針對2758號決議案要多一點作為因為這是他現在相關的一個法律戰那我現在觀察到的一個現象是這個樣子這個是透過一些國際的智庫的一些不算是研究但算是一個情報"},{"start":11492.162,"end":11518.187,"text":"就是說現在中國在跟其他的國家可能會簽訂各式各樣的一些經濟的協定啊等等之類的他未必跟我們的外交有直接的關係但他現在的做法是他會在簽這些協定的時候把2758號塞到裡面去那他塞到裡面去之後我們有時候不得而知因為畢竟有時候契約他雙方是保密的就跟這次的密件一樣所以我們可能無從得知然後呢我們的盟友可能也無從得知那他可能這一年以來做的特別多"},{"start":11518.587,"end":11538.387,"text":"反制的力量可能會在各式各樣的投票現在會有一個反制的力量出來因為目前來講盟友為我們2758號講的越來越多了但我認為反制的力量可以出來是因而可能會出來也代表今天在早上今天國台辦的這個記者會我們剛剛才把他這一個放上去就是說他說有一些人反負債這是今天早上的事情所以2758號決議在做文章"},{"start":11540.789,"end":11566.388,"text":"台灣這個是中國領土不可分割的一部分又在講這種話所以簡單來講我認為他們可能也是吹醒這個反攻的號角所以我們在這一年當中的確拉了盟友然後對2758號發聲那針對他們現在塞契約以及開始吹醒這個號角要反制的力量可能也不是只有外交部也是可能以後部長在國安會會遇到的那不知道這件事情之後有什麼樣的規劃"},{"start":11568.134,"end":11575.417,"text":"我們目前就是在處理這次參加世界衛生大會的過程當然也是跟美方的合作會更加強對不起"},{"start":11583.178,"end":11606.98,"text":"讓美國針對2758號決議一樣的態度立場能夠讓更多的這些有盟國家來接受而且如果說可以的話他們也會對外來發布那這個就是我們一個很強大的這個力量但是至於觀察中國在這個過程當中會用什麼樣的這個方式來加強他們的這個法律戰我們的外館都會密集的來收集那在過去這段時間"},{"start":11608.652,"end":11623.722,"text":"我們看到兩個比較特殊的這個狀況就是說斷交的時候他們就用2758號決議案來那另外一個是逼迫我們退出中美洲議會的時候他們也用2758號決議案所以顯然他們利用中國所詮釋的這個2758號決議案的這個詮釋內容是不斷的在引申擴大"},{"start":11628.485,"end":11645.453,"text":"所以像剛剛委員所說的那個經濟的協議或者是說其他國家的跟其他國家的這種共同雙邊聲明等等的可能有這種可能性就是無限的去擴大那我們會持續的來收集資料針對法律戰的問題那我們會擬出一套規則"},{"start":11646.713,"end":11661.081,"text":"對我這邊的就是當時我們在面對這個問題的時候在跟一些國際的學者跟智庫在討論的時候又想到一點就是說因為中國在打這個法律戰他大部分還是會搭配輿論的方向就是說他輿論打一打他再丟一個新的一個法律框架"},{"start":11661.681,"end":11676.878,"text":"所以我在想說不管是外交部還是僑委會因為他們在外部可能是第一時間會知道說他們在其他的契約什麼時候去塞了2758號這個東西在裡面但當地的民眾未必會買單也就是說呢他們當然一般對於這種經濟協定的簽訂可能並不是很關心"},{"start":11679.721,"end":11707.013,"text":"如果說我們能夠在其他的國家去告知他們的人民他這個transparency就是說如果今天有這個協定出現的時候結果竟然有政治力的操作這個不利於他在各個世界國際組織等等之類然後以及跟台灣的一些雖然不是直接的邦交但他可能會有一些直接不管是經濟相關往來的這個時候或許因為有時候一定是地方上民眾的力量才有辦法對他的政治人物做出一些反制"},{"start":11708.033,"end":11735.589,"text":"所以如果說就這一點而言就是還是回到我們之前講的跟智庫的溝通然後還有跟民眾的溝通智庫的溝通目前來講大家應該可以也是感覺到啦最近不管是哈森然後CSIS啦都開始要針對2758號去辦各式各樣的會議在台灣辦然後也在DC辦嘛所以這個部分我覺得是外交部這幾年以來我覺得非常重要努力的一個成果但是民眾的部分因為民眾的部分如果沒有辦法對他們的政治人物有一定的壓力的話"},{"start":11736.109,"end":11736.129,"text":"當然"},{"start":11757.164,"end":11779.306,"text":"這個意見非常好,我們會來接受,不只是接受,我們來執行。謝謝,那這個就是我剛剛講的,就是我們要怎麼去瓦解中國的一個法律戰,我個人是認為重要的。那最後還是要在這邊謝謝部長,就是說過去這幾年的努力,真的是花了很多的時間,因為我知道我們曾經有一段時間,尤其是在民主基金會的運作之下,很多國外的線是斷掉的。"},{"start":11780.507,"end":11781.167,"text":"接下來請黃秀芳委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11814.547,"end":11816.189,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長請部長委員你好"},{"start":11825.414,"end":11831.197,"text":"今天有好幾個團體針對我們要參加WHA的記者會台灣有21個醫師團體今天召開記者會我們從2017年一直到現在邁入第8年我們都一直沒辦法參與WHA我相信很多人都可以"},{"start":11853.686,"end":11877.521,"text":"我們非常了解是因為中國的打壓造成台灣沒辦法來參加這個WHA的這樣的世界衛生大會那我想這個外交部應該也做過很多的努力當然中國的打壓是無所不在任何形式的打壓那我們也看到就是說美國"},{"start":11879.383,"end":11905.919,"text":"國務卿布林肯也公開的鼓勵還有支持可是這一屆我們還是沒有收到邀請函我想請教部長針對這一部分因為5月27號就要召開大會我想請教外交部或者是今天也有衛福部我們國際合作組也有過來我想請教外交部在這方面我們要怎麼去突破"},{"start":11907.243,"end":11925.408,"text":"非常謝謝委員有關於我們參加世界衛生組織這是一條蠻艱辛的一條道路尤其是中國在國際組織裡面他們所能夠動員的Global South就是全球南方的這些國家的數量算是相當的龐大"},{"start":11926.968,"end":11951.561,"text":"為了要讓我們接下來能夠順利的參與世界衛生組織那我們也跟這些有盟國家尤其是美國都有定期的針對國際組織的這個參與來進行討論那像美國或者是說其他的一些有盟國家對於我們的參與他們也都非常的支持也在想辦法去結合更多的這些理念向近國家來力挺我們"},{"start":11952.481,"end":11978.954,"text":"在過去這段時間我們看到支持我們的這些國家不管是用這種發言的方式或者是聯合競洽的方式或者是說用聯名函的這種方式這個國家是越來越多成績是越來越高另外也有很多的國家的國會議員他們對我們台灣的參與也是非常的支持他們用決議案的方式或者是聯名函的這個方式我們都可以感受得到"},{"start":11979.434,"end":11980.915,"text":"其實台灣沒辦法來參加這個WHA其實這個也是世界的損失啦其實我們看到"},{"start":11997.24,"end":12021.639,"text":"台灣在這個醫療方面其實都做得非常的好尤其是在公衛公共衛生這個區塊其實是世界有目共睹的那在疫情這幾年期間其實台灣台灣可以幫助真的是幫助世界很多的國家那我們也看到就是說其實台灣有很多醫療或者是公衛的人才"},{"start":12022.559,"end":12044.676,"text":"我們從公的部分可能走不出去也許從民間的力量可以來協助那我們看到這一次也有很多的醫療團體他們也自給自費要去參與可能周邊的一些會議那我們也希望說未來新的內閣應該也要有更多的資源或者是協助讓這些"},{"start":12046.277,"end":12050.181,"text":"那我是請教部長未來你是到這個國安會當秘書長那我相信未來的部長應該也可以再繼續延續下去那我是不是可以先請教部長未來我們要怎麼做"},{"start":12069.16,"end":12091.391,"text":"有關於跟那個NGO一些民間團體的這個合作這個都是一致的這個方向那我們這邊的這種協助是不遺餘力所以有一些民間團體他們希望能夠協助政府來參與我們都提供他們一些必要的這些協助那像那個我們台灣醫師會接下來的我們的那個衛福部長"},{"start":12092.071,"end":12116.423,"text":"他本身就是台灣醫師會的這種非常重要的幹部那之前我跟他之間的那個合作關係也是非常的密切要確保說我們台灣醫師會能夠在我們參與世界衛生組織的這個過程當中能夠扮演重要的這種角色和力量那我想這種精神會持續下去畢竟這個就是我們台灣在全世界各地能夠展現的一個最好的一個力量是"},{"start":12117.644,"end":12134.921,"text":"其實我覺得一般的民眾台灣一般的民眾會覺得說台灣確實在國際的這個地位要走出去有它的困難可是民間的力量確實是無窮的民間的力量可以透過NGO的這個組織然後讓台灣走出去"},{"start":12135.681,"end":12146.975,"text":"所以我也希望說未來新的內閣可能也是真的要朝著這個方向那另外我想請教就是說我們現在的邦交國雖然剩下十多個那應該非邦交國其實"},{"start":12154.524,"end":12156.205,"text":"韓國、美國、英國、日本、韓國"},{"start":12183.863,"end":12184.963,"text":"我可以先請教一下部長"},{"start":12213.794,"end":12232.559,"text":"謝謝委員先回答第二個問題就是有關於立陶宛的部分的確他們現在是總統的選舉然後10月還會有一個國會議員的選舉在選舉的時候民主國家各式各樣的議題都會退出來目前他們的總統有提過好幾次不同的說法"},{"start":12234.279,"end":12252.668,"text":"我們也會密切的關注但是有關於我們跟他們之間的這個協議涉及到我們的那個代表處的名稱這個是一個很嚴肅的這個兩國之間的這個協議那這個權利應該是在他們的內閣手上那到目前為止我們看不出來說他們內閣會針對這個事情有所討論那相反的"},{"start":12256.93,"end":12271.624,"text":"即使是未來可能成為執政黨的目前的反對黨他們在這個議題上面他們也非常力挺跟台灣之間的這個關係所以這個事情要請國人放心說接下來應該是不會有任何的變動"},{"start":12273.411,"end":12289.579,"text":"第二個問題也是涉及到就是原來的第一個問題那這涉及到過去這幾年之間我們外交部的這個努力我們都知道那個中國對於我們的這個邦交國的這個部分就是花了很多的力氣用了很多的這些資源"},{"start":12290.679,"end":12296.646,"text":"我們如果說不像中國那樣去處理用一些不當的資源浪費國人的納稅錢去處理的話我們如果不這樣去處理的話那個壓力一定會在"},{"start":12305.356,"end":12334.596,"text":"在這個壓力的狀況之下我們必須要去開拓更多的這個國際空間也就是說跟我們沒有邦交但是可以跟我們發展很好的這個合作關係的這些國家包括美國加拿大英國歐盟主要的國家或者是中東歐的國家等等的那在過去這段時間我們台灣跟這些國家的這個關係讓我們國人看到了那我想總統所形容的就是說我們上架台灣這個是我們共同努力的一個結果"},{"start":12335.636,"end":12356.342,"text":"在國際的重要場合我們台灣也成為一個重要的關鍵字也就是大家在重要的聚會的時候都會提到臺海的和平穩定非常重要關乎全球的和平與繁榮那這個就是我們努力的這個方向讓全世界看到我們台灣的美好那這個方向我們會持續下去"},{"start":12357.182,"end":12357.202,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12385.089,"end":12398.236,"text":"謝謝 接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長請部長黃委員好"},{"start":12407.942,"end":12421.696,"text":"部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手"},{"start":12422.957,"end":12442.031,"text":"上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答"},{"start":12442.751,"end":12467.666,"text":"我也提到了我們臺灣透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前當交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內順便報告給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到"},{"start":12469.14,"end":12495.9,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的質詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟咖啡去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了國務部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到"},{"start":12497.208,"end":12518.617,"text":"如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎"},{"start":12520.531,"end":12540.664,"text":"這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候臺灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求"},{"start":12541.621,"end":12553.719,"text":"那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候"},{"start":12555.32,"end":12580.702,"text":"對於我們跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了好但"},{"start":12581.423,"end":12582.384,"text":"我會說當天結束的時候大概兩天"},{"start":12610.619,"end":12637.518,"text":"我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題這個函我們本身會有本文那我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好 可以第二個"},{"start":12638.559,"end":12648.522,"text":"我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑那之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年for corruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說"},{"start":12658.888,"end":12679.147,"text":"我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐您上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的"},{"start":12680.328,"end":12706.007,"text":"去Fight Against Corruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好"},{"start":12708.2,"end":12723.793,"text":"公務員報告當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有"},{"start":12724.574,"end":12728.576,"text":"等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的"},{"start":12746.414,"end":12775.164,"text":"那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是論事就是人家的調查說有來自台灣"},{"start":12776.164,"end":12797.258,"text":"但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏琳娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿"},{"start":12797.978,"end":12816.307,"text":"在新聞稿裏面寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫那在這個計畫裏面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計畫是不是台灣支持的是可以"},{"start":12820.003,"end":12835.018,"text":"因為我吼我為什麼說原外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的"},{"start":12842.478,"end":12850.77,"text":"所以我要請教一下外交部這個宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的"},{"start":12853.3,"end":12874.046,"text":"幫委員我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多那個社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫但是他貪污的錢是不是從都是台灣的這個部分等一下等一下這是兩個不同的概念都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的這是兩個不同的概念我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的"},{"start":12875.575,"end":12897.436,"text":"那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯"},{"start":12899.04,"end":12918.446,"text":"這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的同仁我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了"},{"start":12929.603,"end":12957.35,"text":"臺灣啊我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心啊我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實"},{"start":12959.485,"end":12986.091,"text":"在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿"},{"start":12987.609,"end":12998.384,"text":"我全部都把事情給找出來再確定一下是不是錢是從台灣來如果錢是從台灣來的我相信我們挺直腰桿說該說的話會贏得國際社會的尊重"},{"start":13002.749,"end":13031.689,"text":"兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟訪過相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責"},{"start":13033.39,"end":13050.721,"text":"非常好 其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重"},{"start":13053.803,"end":13054.123,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":13087.999,"end":13089.32,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請部長報言好部長好,今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員來賓有32位民進黨的委員19個國民黨的委員,2個民眾黨的委員"},{"start":13112.096,"end":13127.672,"text":"民進黨的委員顯然大軍壓境的狀況比較多所以其實沒有施壓的問題今天在國會任何委員只要對於我們的行政業務或者我們在質詢的這個其實是他們的義務跟職責"},{"start":13130.154,"end":13157.156,"text":"所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼"},{"start":13157.916,"end":13164.482,"text":"因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙"},{"start":13186.856,"end":13210.541,"text":"最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了"},{"start":13211.241,"end":13223.886,"text":"我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且"},{"start":13231.209,"end":13231.65,"text":"在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金"},{"start":13249.85,"end":13275.45,"text":"那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較"},{"start":13280.179,"end":13281.141,"text":"為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?"},{"start":13286.575,"end":13290.959,"text":"這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款"},{"start":13310.976,"end":13311.636,"text":"什麼透過第三者"},{"start":13336.607,"end":13341.011,"text":"可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難"},{"start":13361.892,"end":13372.184,"text":"您可以跟基輔市長對話其實他們會掌控到所有的很多的資訊如果基輔市長你都可以在5月31號的時候你跟另外一個市長哈爾科夫哈爾科夫就在烏東了你也跟他做了視訊那時候"},{"start":13379.812,"end":13397.404,"text":"這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受"},{"start":13398.004,"end":13414.597,"text":"如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了30%的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對"},{"start":13420.902,"end":13427.889,"text":"那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求"},{"start":13435.816,"end":13463.034,"text":"你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭"},{"start":13464.656,"end":13474.118,"text":"那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個"},{"start":13475.56,"end":13478.702,"text":"我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢"},{"start":13498.505,"end":13503.209,"text":"這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單"},{"start":13520.42,"end":13526.182,"text":"他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必需的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分"},{"start":13549.029,"end":13567.555,"text":"他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是所以早就送過去了是嗎只要是made in Taiwan不管是什麼樣的影台"},{"start":13569.256,"end":13581.744,"text":"是嗎不是就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣made in Taiwan的這些東西而不是Buy from Taiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長made in Taiwan跟Buy from Taiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的今天部長聽我講完我的問題"},{"start":13588.508,"end":13601.533,"text":"因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家"},{"start":13612.017,"end":13625.061,"text":"在很必須的人道救援的時候我們還要考量到這樣的因素這個是讓人家覺得很奇怪的因為我們的人沒有實際的進去沒有辦法實際進去保證你如果說這個保分我們就要來探討我們希望說在這個很快的時間你把他們的清單提供出來因為你說"},{"start":13633.783,"end":13645.433,"text":"Made in Taiwan 跟 By Front Taiwan 這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣 如果是人道救援 如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的 那叫什麼人道救援"},{"start":13655.663,"end":13666.706,"text":"如果是這樣子的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的"},{"start":13667.574,"end":13671.855,"text":"最主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?你什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個"},{"start":13692.162,"end":13705.959,"text":"就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA"},{"start":13707.381,"end":13721.59,"text":"其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好"},{"start":13722.642,"end":13748.233,"text":"都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以"},{"start":13749.033,"end":13750.334,"text":"2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件"},{"start":13773.022,"end":13773.042,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":13802.822,"end":13807.985,"text":"2016年也是嘛2016年你們接受了嗎2016年我們也2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是"},{"start":13829.235,"end":13832.556,"text":"我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年"},{"start":13857.54,"end":13862.521,"text":"民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有"},{"start":13885.945,"end":13905.416,"text":"就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第25.1案的這種說法"},{"start":13910.078,"end":13928.066,"text":"那至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與那至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識"},{"start":13935.229,"end":13940.373,"text":"從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚"},{"start":13961.59,"end":13962.812,"text":"我最後一次請教這一次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個"},{"start":13982.468,"end":14003.557,"text":"目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚"},{"start":14012.424,"end":14014.988,"text":"下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊 擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案"},{"start":14030.651,"end":14030.671,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14073.107,"end":14082.391,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位官員大家好今天的質詢一開始我想先請衛福部的代表上台請主任"},{"start":14086.666,"end":14097.817,"text":"謝謝我希望提醒我們衛福部在今天我們一同列席的外交部夥伴們此刻正是緊鑼密鼓的也用心的在針對臺美21世紀貿易倡議的各項議題對外進行的談判目前更是進展到了勞動權益的議題"},{"start":14104.784,"end":14130.604,"text":"但是呢我不知道長官有沒有看到新聞齁在本週爆出的新聞只屬我們衛福部的雙和醫院卻因為有違規排班的爭議讓一名有孕再生的女醫師表明已經無法再做原本工作之後呢沒有想到還要被要求值過夜班甚至暴露在游離輻射的場所最終在爆肝值班32小時的情況下害得寶寶流產了"},{"start":14134.267,"end":14157.376,"text":"最終這名女醫師也才痛心的發文我想請教衛福部我們在做醫療外交的同時不管是硬體或是軟體輸出剛剛馬文君朝委已經看了很多我們輸出醫療相關的東西做外交但是呢我們衛福部衛福部所屬機關之間仍是一條邊"},{"start":14158.636,"end":14186.918,"text":"發生了如此重大女醫師醫事人員的勞動事件這對不管是我們未來臺美21世紀貿易倡議的談判或是我們即將出訪去日內瓦的WHA世衛大會的觀察團做國際外交的醫療都對我們的國家形象對於勞權的尊重有所影響所以我們不光是要對國際驕傲的說出Taiwan can help"},{"start":14187.998,"end":14211.896,"text":"連臺大醫院的院長都說臺灣可以幫助各項醫療指標是建立在血汗醫護壓榨的前提之下所以我也想我希望你們可以對國內的醫事從業人員對病患爆肝的醫事人員提供這樣子超出服務的醫療水準展現出We do care所以我想請教您認同嗎"},{"start":14215.189,"end":14218.253,"text":"那您對於這一週這個雙核醫院的事件衛福部一條邊請問會如何處理呢?"},{"start":14234.445,"end":14253.016,"text":"法委 這個事情不在我的職責範圍內請同我回去跟長官請示一下因為我是國際合作所以我主要是負責國際合作所以請問可以請衛福部一周內可以儘速提出檢討報告嗎如何在你們管轄的醫院落實性別平權還有勞動的平權好的可以好那接下來我們請"},{"start":14260.99,"end":14265.592,"text":"外交部部長跟衛福部的官員一同因為我具備醫師的身份部長你好所以本月也會一起出席日內瓦WHA這邊要感謝衛福部還有外交部許許多多的行政流程都非常的繁瑣但是本席很好奇的是去年我們薛部長就有率團在透過我們跟"},{"start":14289.785,"end":14308.121,"text":"台灣、美國、日本、澳洲首度在WHA期間的GCTF這個Framework平台舉辦周邊會議的時候當時薛部長有利用美國衛生部全球事務助理培斯當場致詞的時候提到"},{"start":14310.183,"end":14324.666,"text":"台灣已經注意到WHA於議後提出新的PRED防範與抵禦新興威脅的倡議所以我在這邊請問一下衛福部跟外交部對於這個PRED的重要性可以講出來嗎我請衛福部先來"},{"start":14333.589,"end":14355.237,"text":"委員質詢的是有關於WHA目前在制定的大流行病公約是嗎是他是用來協助因為大家知道說現在新型的傳染病有可能一瞬間就發生而且是跨國之間會發生所以他是協助各國可以提升未來因應大流行威脅的防疫的韌性"},{"start":14356.675,"end":14381.51,"text":"所以當時薛部長在場外的時候希望我們可以參加這個PRENT可是呢後續非常可惜我們來看我親自透過所有網路的搜尋外交部衛福部的官網系統的查詢都看不到任何的後續進展可以請教一下這個PRENT的事情雷聲大雨點小後來就沒消沒洗原因是什麼"},{"start":14383.53,"end":14392.144,"text":"有關這個PRACT其實它本身是一個WHO內部的一個計畫那我們這邊還在持續跟WHO這邊交涉說怎麼樣讓台灣參與"},{"start":14394.473,"end":14420.942,"text":"好 你們很重視這件事情所以我們未來應該要怎麼利用國際間這個倡議還有附帶的資源讓國人可以體驗到有感嘛有感的施政畢竟現在大家過著疫情後的生活所以其實全國人民也隨時在準備說萬一我們有再一波新型的傳染病應該要如何來抵禦好 終於找到一篇什麼時候提到了PRED"},{"start":14422.116,"end":14437.137,"text":"居然是在這個去年的4月有舉辦過一次會議這個訂定了2025年12月的工作目標而且是從我們交通部的航港局每月海事要聞"},{"start":14438.619,"end":14454.728,"text":"講到的工作目標說包括籌備專門的投資本於對醫事健康政策的重視然後我們在這個航運啊等等疫情啊重大疾病的差距啊等等這件事情你們都知道嗎一無所知"},{"start":14465.017,"end":14477.999,"text":"所以其實薛部長去年參加WHA就在一個公開的演說講到台灣非常重視也很希望參加PRAT但是呢後面都沒有任何的相關動作了我們就是透過那個跟WHO在溝通要參與這個倡議好我們都看得出來因為有時候我們是從"},{"start":14492.884,"end":14499.356,"text":"架構之外嘛 場外的這個GCTF這個平台來做推案才會比較順利嘛 對不對"},{"start":14500.852,"end":14528.268,"text":"所以我們這個美國、日本、澳洲等等大家一起成立的 Framework其實它很像你走去一個吃到飽的餐廳可是你不夾菜因為你的這個 Framework過去一年我查了一下你們舉辦了二三十場的活動有能源的、有反假資訊的、有性別暴力的就是沒有任何關於公共衛生的不覺得這樣子會很可惜嗎?"},{"start":14529.489,"end":14543.738,"text":"不覺得台灣應該要主動來提議辦公衛相關的活動才可以讓世界知道台灣的公衛軟實力嗎?這四個國家我想問一下你們是怎麼決定每年你們要討論哪些topic?"},{"start":14546.458,"end":14569.907,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們針對那個GCTF的各個場次其實都有公開啦那針對公共衛生的這個部分其實我們也有好幾場包括那個去年在那個世界衛生大會期間的辦的那一場那個GCTF我說的是這一年來這是我查到的譬如說5月23號就是有一場在日內我要舉行有沒有其他的有沒有其他的"},{"start":14570.447,"end":14571.148,"text":"請我們的北美市長來說明一下"},{"start":14600.707,"end":14625.52,"text":"那我也幫衛福部講幾句話衛福部過去一年來有主動提出要求希望可以外交部幫忙協助在這個framework爭取多一點的防疫啊公衛等等的相關議題嗎如果有的話我們一定會支持對好因為我希望全世界都準備好的時候台灣也可以準備好好嗎希望衛福部可以一周內交出檢討報告好謝謝各位謝謝"},{"start":14631.492,"end":14633.234,"text":"王洪威議員"},{"start":14657.645,"end":14683.898,"text":"的林北要跟你吵到底引起非常多的爭議那我也看到你跟媒體受訪的時候你的說法但是部長你的這個發言是用外交部的官方社群平台來發言所以以一個外交部長的身份用外交部的社群平台說林北一定跟你吵到底部長你覺得合適嗎"},{"start":14686.444,"end":14708.223,"text":"有關於這件事情我今天早上已經說明過幾次了就是說在上個禮拜五最後一場的那個媒體查序裡面媒體聯誼會的會長用這個幽默來給我那我也是用幽默的方式來呈現媒體可能給你開玩笑給你封號但是你用外交部的官方社群去講林北跟你吵到底你覺得合適嗎"},{"start":14709.464,"end":14722.856,"text":"有關於那個社群媒體的方式就是social media那這個不是一個正式的管道這是官方的社群平台不是你個人的社群平台吧"},{"start":14723.84,"end":14740.041,"text":"有關於這個部分我今天早上已經講過好幾次了就是說媒體對我的這個幽默那我用幽默的方式來回應但是你可以在官方社群平台這樣的放鬆跟放肆嗎這就是一個社交媒體上面所呈現的一個幽默"},{"start":14742.182,"end":14742.783,"text":"我想有關於我們臺灣鄉下因為我來自鄉下"},{"start":14762.321,"end":14764.865,"text":"你不要扯鄉下嘛你不要扯鄉下部長你喔就是公私不分啦公私不分公私不分啦好來部長"},{"start":14779.332,"end":14792.279,"text":"部長在另外再跟你請教接下來520之後你要到國安會擔任秘書長那請問一下現在新發布的副秘書長林飛帆先生是您推薦的嗎"},{"start":14794.152,"end":14813.157,"text":"並不是我推薦但是我知道這個任命的這個過程我也認為說他非常的自裁自說在程序上你是先同意接任國安會秘書長然後林飛帆是後來然後您得知他要擔任副秘書長是吧是後來得知但是我覺得說非常的好請問一下林飛帆擔任副秘他會負責哪一方面的工作"},{"start":14821.675,"end":14826.757,"text":"他以後負責外交方面全部的外交方面沒有我們進去了之後會再做一些分工基本上他是外交方面"},{"start":14836.161,"end":14840.325,"text":"所以秘書長林飛帆先生因為他沒有任何的外交、國防甚至連公務機關的經驗都沒有所以你認為他可以成為你的得力助手"},{"start":14858.484,"end":14871.399,"text":"他在過去這段時間他有到美國的智庫去做進修那他也到很多的國家去進行演講去進行交流甚至是NGO甚至是跟政府部或者是國會我認為沒有問題"},{"start":14874.502,"end":14878.525,"text":"另外一個要回到外交部現在的問題在上個星期您接受廣播節目因為大家也知道立陶宛因為正在進行選舉所以呢立陶宛總統就拋出了一個就是說要把"},{"start":14896.838,"end":14909.946,"text":"原來的我們的臺灣辦事處的名稱想要把它改成臺北辦事處那麼我有注意到您在上週接受媒體的採訪的時候你也掛保證對不對你也掛保證說不會改變是不是"},{"start":14913.172,"end":14917.677,"text":"上次是說依照目前的情勢來看的話應該是不會改變因為他們的總統是不涉入到內閣的權利所以總統的這個發言是一個選舉的這個發言你說他們不是總統制等等之類的"},{"start":14931.221,"end":14947.166,"text":"部長我請教這個是一個非常重要的外交跟政治上的判斷那麼如果未來極為不幸的立陶宛在經過這場選舉之後那麼真的他把我們的台灣辦事處改成台北辦事處之後請問"},{"start":14948.726,"end":14961.22,"text":"你會不會遲遲以事負責因為我剛剛講這是重要的這是一個假設性的問題我相信我們外交部的所有同仁都會努力去讓這個事情是不會發生的所以你是說以後發生是歸外交部是不該領國安會的事囉"},{"start":14964.143,"end":14975.876,"text":"我們已經預期到就是說他們10月會有那個國會議員的選舉那國會議員的選舉就是重組他們的內閣的時候那針對各個政黨我們都保持非常密切的聯繫所以10月之後應該也不會有問題"},{"start":14979.591,"end":14997.55,"text":"所以啊我知道你講不會被改變嘛那我說你掛保證的事情你為什麼不敢不敢拿你的烏紗帽呢這是很重要的政治判斷欸啊你如果覺得說他有可能我們努力這也是一種說法你說不會被改變啊啊你講得這麼斬釘截鐵"},{"start":14999.452,"end":15003.016,"text":"所以你現在不敢講說假使有這樣子不幸的事情發生因為我們立陶宛啤酒也喝了我們立陶宛半導體的技術也送給他們了我們幾乎都是盡量的配合在這樣的狀況之下我們的台灣辦事處還會被改名"},{"start":15021.156,"end":15021.617,"text":"已經跟委員說了我們會避免這種事情發生"},{"start":15038.837,"end":15059.775,"text":"所以啊我現在問了你還是不敢用這個用你自己負政治責任我們會努力去避免這個事情發生我們再來看下一個因為最近我們也大概討論到就是我們援助烏克蘭的部分那麼也特別提到因為你們也控告了這個徐巧欣委員但是我要就教於部長了因為我們事實上從111年開始我們就在援助烏克蘭"},{"start":15066.861,"end":15087.031,"text":"111年呢,都是我們直接性的援助,比如說包含對學校啦,民生基礎設施啦,對發電的這個能源設備等等之類的。到了112年,它有很大的改變。這些東西啊,通通不是密件,因為這也都是你們提供給我們那個研究室的資料。"},{"start":15087.791,"end":15108.377,"text":"也就在112年的時候其實我們就很多用第三國的方式去援助烏克蘭包含我們跟波蘭的合作包含我們跟立陶宛的合作包含我們跟捷克的合作那當然其實若以111年看起來我們事實上是可以直接去援助烏克蘭的"},{"start":15109.659,"end":15132.623,"text":"那到了112年我們就跟了第三國合作那請問一下如果我們可以直接援助烏克蘭為什麼要經過第三國這是第一個問題第二個問題我們跟波蘭跟立陶宛跟捷克其實我們跟他們的合作並不會成為機密我剛講這些東西都是你們所提供給我們的好"},{"start":15133.203,"end":15155.545,"text":"那當時你們說為什麼徐曉新委員你要這個洩漏密切有什麼有什麼樣的危及國家的外交的問題呢說因為這會給捷克帶來困擾那徐曉新委員他也特別提出來了3月底捷克的官方的他的期刊就已經登出這個相關的計劃所以第一個捷克根本不覺得困擾第二個"},{"start":15157.987,"end":15163.331,"text":"如果今天你擔心捷克發生困擾那立陶宛會被困擾呢波蘭會被困擾呢顯然你們也不擔心他困擾然後也提供給我們這樣的計畫所以請教一下為什麼徐曉欣所提供的那個要成為密件看不出他有何密之有啊你們所提出來的源自烏克蘭我們早就在做你們根本挑蘿打鼓的在做第二個透過第三國"},{"start":15185.66,"end":15198.595,"text":"第三國他們都沒有在擔心這些事情然後你們用這個理由來說這個是密件所以現在很多的大家質疑就是說他到底何密之有你要把它列為密件呢請回答"},{"start":15200.371,"end":15215.949,"text":"非常謝謝委員所提出來的這些問題在111億年的時候這些小額的援助是因為我們能夠直接跟這些地方的政府來進行溝通那他們跟我們提出需求之後那時候用一般"},{"start":15216.65,"end":15216.93,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15236.718,"end":15250.15,"text":"好那請問一下徐曉新委員所你們認為他是密件到底他何密自有你們要把他列入密件我剛講我們其他第三國通通也都有揭露啊他們有擔心嗎"},{"start":15253.276,"end":15273.898,"text":"傑克有來抗議說你們怎麼說我們幫助你呢?對不對?傑克沒有抗議啊!其實如果說注意看到CHTI的執行長在前幾天他覺得說他被我們國內的這些相關的人士所污蔑還感到非常的傷心感到非常的遺憾"},{"start":15274.258,"end":15276.04,"text":"他不是針對說揭露他協助台灣來援助烏克蘭嗎?他不是在抗議這一點嗎?他有抗議這一點嗎?就是論事,對不對?"},{"start":15289.611,"end":15289.791,"text":"請委員瞭解"},{"start":15308.396,"end":15320.225,"text":"不過你們密不能全部都密件如果按照我給你的資料那個你們所謂的密件真的沒有什麼秘密可言我們也提供給委員的希望能夠讓委員來了解好 謝謝部長請轉達CHTA他們說他們覺得受到污蔑其實事實上應該沒有他們接收的訊息是有問題的所以外交部理當把它說明清楚好不好沒關係"},{"start":15338.419,"end":15358.534,"text":"因為你剛剛已經公開講了你剛剛已經公開講這非常嚴重因為今天我們剛剛也有講到宏都拉斯有講到就是有講到其他國家我們希望我們如果被其他國家或者跟我們合作的單位有問題的時候我想其實還是解釋清楚會比較好接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":15378.08,"end":15383.903,"text":"臨北不可能在這個地方討論臨北語言學的定義在什麼地方臨北甘許外交政策"},{"start":15403.94,"end":15430.331,"text":"臨北就不可能在14年來臨北就不可能在外交委員會討論臨北對外交政策的影響那是語言學問題領域來 裡面也有阿蕾阿蕾是什麼意思阿蕾是後面的人說我阿蕾阿蕾每一個國家都有他的語言看不同場合有不同表達方式嘛我阿蕾也是 僕也是 阿蕾也是"},{"start":15431.428,"end":15438.07,"text":"所以說你做多久不做多久兩年多兩年多我在中間要十四年十三年多我在做第一屆時說是在議堂"},{"start":15459.687,"end":15487.275,"text":"第一次的時候差不多十二年前我又是站在這裡我又要做交易雖然說是那個反對黨不是政治黨但是對國家的建設國防外交大家都有高度的共識是到尊重主席所以譬如說我對馬文君交易他的一些做法我沒有認同但是我從來"},{"start":15489.414,"end":15490.014,"text":"對我國的尊重基礎、憲政立法都是對的"},{"start":15520.009,"end":15529.451,"text":"好不好 針對你的施政 我提出質詢 質詢有道理不能無厘頭 不能謾罵 不能情緒訓 不能咆哮我過去十幾年跟你互動 我有咆哮過嗎沒有我秉持一個原則 您要秉持一個溫良公檢當所以我尊重你自己的保證 我尊重東東山保證參與吳釗燮保證"},{"start":15550.478,"end":15550.498,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":15580.7,"end":15589.104,"text":"先來講 先來證 邪魔就不入 先來講 邪魔就不入 先來講 邪魔就不入 怕你怕到不行"},{"start":15617.217,"end":15629.808,"text":"非常感謝委員應該說你也很辛苦連你這個外交部的工作都非常辛苦但是為了國家為了人民選擇選擇求實事做實事這個弱者"},{"start":15636.874,"end":15645.461,"text":"播聲量進口秀歡迎行者入圍入就所以外交"},{"start":15646.854,"end":15665.981,"text":"李國輝現在很認真對各行政策要好好討論你今天的報告裡面具體的推案作為包括所有的可以做的爭取國際與國幫認同到四位行動團包括用立法部門多元方式國際議論"},{"start":15667.882,"end":15691.398,"text":"每一年每一年的成果都還不錯都逐漸累積有什麼我們沒辦法還是沒辦法加入WHA當然一般的常識我會認為一定是一國一人在動嘛一國就是中華人民共和國對不對一個人就是那個幹事長幹事長的任期到什麼時候2027年阿拉庫喔嗯"},{"start":15694.775,"end":15715.862,"text":"但是我們還是要持續不斷的努力在努力的過程中我們可以建立更多有我的力量培養更多的年輕人對這個問題的關注因為我們在世界各國的校園有很多留學生我們透過留學生的力量去影響他們的國家因為年輕人的聲音很大"},{"start":15718.461,"end":15744.246,"text":"所以這部分要加強這個對年輕人對這個問題的問題意識以及投入這個台灣WHA相關的這個作為沒有我看很多都你們可操之在我的部分應該全部都做了全部都做啊非操之在己的部分就是我講中國和團賽的這個部分你怎麼努力你就沒辦法突破嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":15745.646,"end":15763.866,"text":"我想委員說得非常對啦,就是完全超視在我們的這個部分,我們要再回頭過去檢視說還有什麼沒有做好,還是沒有做前啦。剛才你提到說我們在海外的這些留學生,我們海外的僑民的這個部分,我們有在努力,但是可能還可以再加強。"},{"start":15764.81,"end":15780.982,"text":"那有關於這種動員國際的這個友人的部分在過去這幾年我們有看到一些具體的成果比如說聯合進洽的這個官員的成績以及人數都在增加當中有幫我們寫推薦函的這些人也增加當中"},{"start":15781.562,"end":15804.195,"text":"那幫我們去公開講話的或者是說間接來講話的這個也都在增加當中所以這個是具體的方向所以說雖然這一條路有比較艱苦有比較辛苦但是你所做的都留下痕跡你所做的都會成為一個累積慢慢來你也累積到一個程度你的效果就會出現"},{"start":15805.896,"end":15808.598,"text":"尤其是他們的經濟能力下滑的過程做到緊繃做到慢待以時機適當的時機我們就可以達成"},{"start":15835.907,"end":15850.778,"text":"要有耐心不然還有信心然後結合所有年齡層的力量比如說尤其是年輕人像在海外那種對國家的領導我非常感動中國大賽在哈佛在那邊演講台灣女生在那邊唱歌這就是黃金培"},{"start":15862.441,"end":15876.27,"text":"所以你要鼓舞我們的校園長他們DNA就是愛台灣人的土地不敢台灣在國際社會上收到中國Q所以我就是說我還要講兩小時兩小時可能會浪費時間因為今天是你最晚嘛是"},{"start":15886.465,"end":15910.546,"text":"那你雖然轉換寶島一樣是在這個國安體系你現在你擔任委員會的主任你還要整合以你的經驗我相信你會做得很好那我以困難你過去六年對國家人民的付出我再強調一次做聯合崗位心裡吃血沒不露你心裡吃藥沒幾個看著你像個兵"},{"start":15915.718,"end":15943.721,"text":"謝謝委員所以語重心長國家安全跟國防跟外交臺灣是個特殊的處境不管在什麼位置上我都會努力要與國家為念要與人民為念要與子子孫孫為念不能一己一師一黨之力你要博聲量"},{"start":15945.803,"end":15946.604,"text":"主席"},{"start":15956.391,"end":15974.466,"text":"這個我相信所有的這些你們的司處長都很認真有時候這個要變成新的環境、新的變局有時候有理想背景所以你要對我們這個外交官有好理都要很認真我會力挺他們那你了解隨時在外館的每一個狀況都要給"},{"start":15980.505,"end":15988.967,"text":"讓所有的外交部同仁以作為中華民國外交官為榮好,謝謝,謝謝邱委員好,接下來請莊瑞雄委員上台質詢謝謝召委,有請我們外交部吳釗燮吳部長請吳部長"},{"start":16017.338,"end":16042.719,"text":"委員你好部長好首先針對你這6年來人多人多嘛這樣的當外交部長這樣的一個辛勞還有跟我們外交部同仁的那個努力給予最高的一個肯定謝謝委員其實你不用怪他啦一個脆發一個什麼的面對無理的質疑林北一定跟你吵到底面對中國的威脅林北一定跟你奮戰到底這有什麼"},{"start":16044.66,"end":16049.384,"text":"我聽起來也覺得很粗鄙我聽起來也很粗鄙但是我覺得這也是外交部長面對中國你的態度是怎麼樣這個平常性看待 要找語病說什麼粗鄙 說什麼沒有禮貌聽聽就好了你施宗每天請他 內骨袋泡得很漂亮施宗請他很親"},{"start":16068.437,"end":16082.346,"text":"國民黨也不會給你打包給你下落啦你知道嗎在國會裡面啊本來就是有不同的一個聲音啦那其實啊其實要講說啊這個如果蔡政府執政這8年啊雖然說外交上失禮的事情我還真的是"},{"start":16083.476,"end":16108.659,"text":"很難去想到反而我第一個想到的是反而是在馬政府時代我本時還記得那一陣我們大家在拍片的時候2010年安倍安倍晉三來訪台灣或者說2013年土華魯大使參加國宴都發生那種極度對人家不尊重連一個坐車都沒有去安排國際友人自費去搭計程車這個確實這8年至少我都還沒看過但是我回到正題就是說"},{"start":16109.92,"end":16138.708,"text":"我們過去在國際政治當中最熟悉的就是說大家都說若國無外交啦我如果這句話我如果記得不對就是說這個當年喔那個這個中華民國參加巴黎和會的外交官陸正祥這個阿伯這位中立的啦巴黎和會是第一次世界大戰以後呢秩序重整跟領土的重新劃分的1919年中國為了去取得這個山東的一個權益啊嘿那時候德國佔領嘛齁但是到最後啊仍然失敗"},{"start":16139.528,"end":16152.932,"text":"所以這個外交官陸正祥才有感而發但本席其實不完全認同這樣的一個觀點落國當然會比較困難這是真的本席想藉這個最後一次執行這個部長的一個機會來請問部長不管我們怎麼樣去定位台灣"},{"start":16156.673,"end":16176.073,"text":"所謂在夾縫中的臺灣國際政治或者其他我想最後一次請部長好好跟國人說明就是說臺灣目前在國際政治當中我們還可以扮演什麼角色以及國際社會依然不把我們當成一個正常國家看待之下臺灣在國際政治上我們要怎麼自處"},{"start":16177.394,"end":16195.993,"text":"這個部長很厭倦請教你這真的是很好的問題這也是我們外交部這幾年來一直在思考的問題在這裡向委員報告過一段時間我們就是需要有很高度的創造性創造力才能夠去創造出一些不同的空間出來"},{"start":16196.874,"end":16219.203,"text":"因為承認我們的國家在中國的這個壓力之下越來越少也因此我們跟其他的這些民主國家之間的這個互動就是一個必要的一個東西那在過去這幾年之間我們跟很多的這些民主國家的關係不斷的提升不只是國會甚至是行政部門或者是一般社會大眾這個關係是不斷的提升比如說"},{"start":16220.143,"end":16249.301,"text":"那個過去的外交部長很難出門的除非是說到邦交國去可是在過去這6年我們看到很多的這些國家陸續的都為我們台灣打開大門讓我們的外交部長能夠去公開的訪問公開的演講那這個就是一個比較創造性的一個結果那我們必須去秉持這種創造性的力量讓年輕的這些外交官都能夠提出他們的這個見解讓我們的整個外交部能夠具有這些相關的創造力和火力"},{"start":16249.941,"end":16265.315,"text":"在國會裡面每一個政黨的委員他當然會有不同的一個看法,立場不同嘛,你像比如說在野黨對於外交部啊,諸多的一個批評啊,其實如果我們批評,覺得我們做不夠的,合理嘛,我們批評嘛,那你要叫他們討論也比較困難啦"},{"start":16268.097,"end":16290.87,"text":"有時要任何一個行政部門其實自己都會有檢討會議那我們自己有缺失那個也都很正常但是本席有一個特別感慨就去年總統大選的時候這幾年了 幾年幾年都在說這個從當選人 準總統賴清德到兩位在野黨的候選人所端出的外交國防的一個政策我仔細的去看"},{"start":16291.73,"end":16307.235,"text":"其實跟現在小英總統的政策沒有多大的差距你像比如說柯文哲就曾經講過美國是台灣最重要的盟友呼籲要跟美國來深化這個合作最後也不言了直接說會延續蔡總統的路線國民黨的紅友在競選的時候也說這個台美軍事交流列為他的國防政見的一個重點而且要加強發展不對稱的一個戰力"},{"start":16319.726,"end":16341.683,"text":"這也是小英總統現在在做的一個政策從這兩點就可以看得出來其實蔡總統的政見的一個方向這八年其實是非常正確在野黨挑戰者才會認為說要做這樣的一個延續所以我也期許我們部長到國安會以後也能夠就持續去協助新的政府在國際上讓我們的國家走得更穩健"},{"start":16345.687,"end":16363.664,"text":"但是我有一個要即刻去處理外交部的官網上面我們通常會在各國介紹介面緊急聯絡的方式提供給國人出國的時候可以運用泰國的部分更是提供LINE的帳號多元提供國人到泰國"},{"start":16364.845,"end":16382.641,"text":"緊急救助的時候這種服務上面雖然也提醒了國人賴帳號有加入好友人數的一個限制像我現在要加碼都加不進去了但是到現在你還是滿載的狀態持續好久的一段時間我就會覺得說一個好的政策宣達"},{"start":16384.192,"end":16398.882,"text":"也夠了那現在加不進去了那代表這個政策的一個工具對新的人來講的話這個是我們自己要去改善的地方是不是外交部去研議解決你像比如說不然我就多新設一個帳號或其他的一個方式"},{"start":16399.963,"end":16402.345,"text":"謝謝委員提出這個方式我們會來加以了解並且加以改進我們在其他的管促最重要的緊急號碼是手機"},{"start":16427.181,"end":16443.212,"text":"這個手機都隨時隨地都有人直擊也就是說半夜你要打電話你也找得到人所以緊急的狀況的話我們的外管都會提供協助泰國也有那有關於LINE的這個部分的話我們來加以檢討改進我覺得軟體也很好那我們也不一定要只有泰國"},{"start":16444.112,"end":16468.053,"text":"長距離的地方,像日本或其他國家,國人在外發生什麼緊急的事情需要國家協助的時候,第一個想到的都是看我們外交部這個地方有沒有辦法做協助。我們想到這個,做到沒辦法就做改善而已。我們的本來好的政策、我們的目的就是要提供國人更便利,讓他去感受到國家對他的關心。"},{"start":16469.014,"end":16469.054,"text":"主席"},{"start":16509.29,"end":16516.212,"text":"待會兒到郭裕請委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘現在請李昆城委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請部長請部長部長好部長辛苦了所有的與會官員都辛苦了"},{"start":16537.762,"end":16561.644,"text":"那這個部長請教一下齁這個過去齁您曾經被這個國台辦列為臺獨的頑固份子這個有您辦列進去嗎而且發表三千字的長文批判我包含我們的這個副總統蕭美琪她被制裁兩次被制裁兩次那還有我們現在未來的這個國防部長顧立雄"},{"start":16563.342,"end":16569.136,"text":"也都列入這個台獨頑固分子那請問一下這個列入台獨頑固分子對你有什麼影響嗎?"},{"start":16570.69,"end":16595.365,"text":"最主要就是說有一點傷腦筋啦就是兩件事情第一個我是推動那個維持現狀的一個最主要的執行者結果被列成那個台獨頑固分子第二個那個狀況是有很多真的是推動台獨運動的人他們對我非常的不滿對他們認為說你有這個勳章為什麼他們沒有是不是是他們問我說要去哪裡申請"},{"start":16597.314,"end":16623.181,"text":"現在我剛才講的包括您還有蕭美琴、顧立雄至少他們都是官員官員被國台辦列為台獨頑固分子至少我們是站在我們的崗位上面做我們該做的事情我看今天國台辦還把我們的名嘴不分藍綠包含黃世聰、余北辰、劉寶傑、李政浩、王逸川他的五位名嘴還有他們的家屬"},{"start":16624.241,"end":16652.564,"text":"都這個要來做這個因為他們傳播錯誤的言論然後呢要給予懲罰給予懲戒那個懲戒還包含除了他們個人之外呢還有家屬實施懲戒那過去因為你們是官員那現在是連這個一般的民眾他們只是在電視上面發表一些言論國台辦認為說你怎麼可以講說這個大陸高鐵沒有靠背你怎麼可以說這個大陸人這個買不起茶葉蛋還有認為說你在散步不時的言論那可是這個是在齁"},{"start":16654.605,"end":16667.51,"text":"這個520之前我認為他在520之前特地的對於我們一般的民眾他們就是民嘴而已然後給予這個懲戒那請問一下部長你未來是這個國安會秘書長你有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":16668.757,"end":16685.85,"text":"這個我們會仔細的來觀察就是說中國如果說在這方面不斷擴大的話到底會影響到多廣包括說我們的國人被制裁的這個國人要出門要過境等等的是不是會受到影響"},{"start":16687.25,"end":16700.939,"text":"就之前我所知就是除了人之外還有一些機構也被列入制裁那這個可能造成一些寒產的效應或者是實際參與的這種限制那所以這個部分我們必須要持續的來觀察"},{"start":16702.04,"end":16725.783,"text":"因為他是在520前特地宣布的,所以我認為他這一個要企圖利用這個來影響這520之前的這個兩岸關係而且他們不是這個官員,比如說像您或是像我們是民意代表就算了他們是一般的民眾,他們可以對這樣子一般民眾來做出這種懲戒而且還包括他的家屬,我認為這是非常嚴重的一個挑釁的一個做法"},{"start":16727.221,"end":16752.979,"text":"我相信那個我們相關的機關會針對這個事情來做出回應我們台灣畢竟是一個言論自由的國家不管是支持哪一個政黨那這個言論的自由不應該有任何的限縮更何況是從外國想要來限縮我們的言論自由這個是絕對不能夠受到他們的影響是啊因為這個是不分來率喔我剛剛講那個五個名單是不分來率的那可是呢這不分來率都被"},{"start":16753.479,"end":16754.339,"text":"台灣民主基金會的董事長是誰?"},{"start":16777.999,"end":16795.338,"text":"這個是我們的立法院的院長對啊那目前就是我們的韓國瑜韓院長嘛那結果韓國瑜韓院長當這個董事長的這個機構台灣民主基金會也被他列為台獨頑固分子我不曉得我們的韓國瑜韓院長有什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":16796.414,"end":16819.776,"text":"那我再請教一下這個部長在5月18號有國民黨跟民眾黨的立委要登太平島那我記得在一個月之前你有說過就是說當時就是說有這個國民黨跟民眾黨的立委說這個希望要求這個總統能夠登太平島那時候你是講說太平島是中華民國的主權那個無庸置疑"},{"start":16820.676,"end":16832.804,"text":"兩岸在南海的爭議不斷升高的時候我們應該用和平的方式來解決這個問題而非製造問題請教一下一個月之後部長的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":16850.736,"end":16855.359,"text":"所以在520之前這些國民黨跟民眾黨立委要去太平島您認為這個時機還是不太好我覺得不是很好但是至於說他們要去這個是委員自己的這個決定"},{"start":16878.812,"end":16882.555,"text":"當時這個國安局長蔡明彥蔡局長他也是在這邊然後大家也是問到說這個太平島的會有一些風險性在因為他說我們的這一個國軍的運輔船曾經有這個被這個中國騷擾過"},{"start":16908.132,"end":16936.979,"text":"那請問一下齁這一趟齁這一個包含這一個20位的國民黨跟民眾黨列委過去要去太平島我們有提供什麼樣的一些援助或是說要避免因為畢竟吶這個航程有1600公里齁有沒有什麼樣的維安或是飛航上面的一些安全我們要去幫他們注意的這個部分我沒有確定啦齁因為這個是國防部在處理的那在外交部這邊並沒有涉入所以這部分就是跟外交部沒有關係就對了"},{"start":16937.799,"end":16941.521,"text":"國安局長提到有被騷擾的一個過程其實我也擔心雖然說黨派立場是不太一樣的那不曉得飛航這麼遠這1600公里不知道會不會被中國的軍機、軍艦做騷擾我不知道你們有沒有預判過會有這種情況"},{"start":16963.235,"end":16981.2,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提問我們外交部這邊是沒有跟國防部討論到相關的議題也沒有跟國安局討論到相關的議題但是如果說從過去這兩三年中國的戰機在騷擾其他國家的這種"},{"start":16981.92,"end":16982.64,"text":"中國的戰機走過去之後他發射的那個燃燒彈"},{"start":17005.51,"end":17005.65,"text":"那可是"},{"start":17025.633,"end":17050.569,"text":"您也是認為說目前要過去的話時機是不適合的而且對於這個捍衛這個臺北島是臺灣中華民國的族群實際上也沒有任何這個幫助就現階段而言那因為部長應該是最後一次這個在以外交部部長的身份來備詢那未來希望到這個國安會繼續這個堅守您的任務您的崗位我們會一起站在一起的謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":17057.78,"end":17062.462,"text":"吳釗燮委員發言完畢休息5分鐘我們現在請吳釗燮委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請部長請部長委員好部長所有外交部辛苦的同仁大家午安剛剛有徐曉欣委員送你一個禮物是密件"},{"start":17085.919,"end":17106.483,"text":"那他要暗喻的就是密件嘛他覺得國家機密就像在7-11或是Family Mart隨手買的密件一樣可以隨便大放送可以隨便的拿來做自己的政治作秀的場域所以我今天要送你一個蜂蜜"},{"start":17108.2,"end":17124.725,"text":"是密件就該封國家機密不能有漏洞這是我們認識這麼多年我第一次送禮物給吳部長我們是本家吳家大哥跟小妹請接受我的封密好嗎是密件就該封好嗎"},{"start":17135.947,"end":17138.629,"text":"謝謝,加油繼續全力以赴,為我們熱愛的台灣。"},{"start":17142.731,"end":17170.293,"text":"我剛剛在隔壁的司法法制委員會我對於司法院跟法務部提出了質詢我非常難以接受中華民國的立法委員可以利用他立委的職權來號召國民黨籍的立委透過車輪戰在今天的外交委員會要逼迫外交部具狀給檢方爭取對於徐曉欣委員的泄露國家機密案來爭取不起訴"},{"start":17171.724,"end":17199.363,"text":"那吳宗憲委員呢他身為法律人卻做出這樣的司法指導期我剛剛在司法法治委員會我想司法院的代表秘書長也好法務部的代表黃次長也好都表情凝重深深以為不可那吳宗憲召委他試圖為自己的行為來說明他說因為啊外交部不是司法機關啊所以我們去給外交部一點點壓力不叫做干預司法"},{"start":17200.39,"end":17214.469,"text":"部長如果以吳宗憲委員要求今天請在野黨的委員來給予你們透過質詢形成壓力請外交部要聚眾給檢察官對於此案不起訴就是給你施壓了這是不是"},{"start":17215.703,"end":17215.883,"text":"所以,部長"},{"start":17238.669,"end":17246.965,"text":"即便您離開這個職位不該低頭未來承接責任的是在座的每一位有為有首的外交人員"},{"start":17248.246,"end":17271.535,"text":"就如同我送您的蜂蜜是密件就該封國家機密不能打折不能受制於政治的壓力好嗎我們繼續加油謝謝委員今天的主題其實我非常的有感而發我在2016年擔任立委之後我多次對吳釗燮部長提出來的其實是我對於公眾外交的倡議"},{"start":17272.975,"end":17294.701,"text":"他是台灣的外交新生路也是外交的新活路下一頁我這邊援引的是我2016年的質詢的文件現在在學外交的年輕世代大學生都會要去修公眾外交他又稱人民外交或稱公共外交他是多元外交的一環他是一個軟實力的展現透過文化透過傳播透過私部門"},{"start":17297.762,"end":17326.356,"text":"透過地方政府公民團體還有非政府組織對於國家形象的建構來創造一個台灣的國家品牌我想您非常認同下一頁也因為公眾外交可以成為台灣在中共無所不用其極的政治外交打壓之下去中心化去政治化我們可以讓國力有限民力無窮讓私部門代表台灣政府官方站出去而且公眾外交訴求的對象"},{"start":17327.597,"end":17354.974,"text":"非官方我們是以贏得他國的國人的喜好為核心我們這幾年確實很有斬獲那部長可以跟我分享你擔任部長這麼多年你覺得台灣推動公眾外交有什麼樣的案例是你覺得很好可以繼續做第一個是我們的NGO走出去接受外交部的支持那以NGO的本質的話他們就是民間的團體政府不應該任何的這種"},{"start":17356.783,"end":17356.823,"text":"臺灣的父權"},{"start":17375.774,"end":17376.315,"text":"今天我們質詢的主題是WHA"},{"start":17395.67,"end":17400.173,"text":"過去我們都是在場外抗議確實在中國打壓之下我們拿不到邀請函所以歷年的來到現場都有很多的醫療團體我這張照片秀出了還有陳時中前部長大家一起在場外讓國際在重要的WHA的開會的現場看到台灣的聲音聽見台灣的醫療成就這是before"},{"start":17417.242,"end":17426.004,"text":"但是我們導入了公眾外交after下一頁就是私謠在2018年我剛當選立委我協助一群年輕的醫師跟年輕的設計團隊用一個策展的方式在日內瓦的這個會場旁邊找了一個策展的空間以臺灣的醫療成就用一個expo展覽的方式讓世界各國來開會的各國政要"},{"start":17444.671,"end":17456.967,"text":"我認為這樣的做法非常正向非常有效未來是不是持續來協助往這方面來推進可以我想這個是非常好我們外交部應該是朝這個方向繼續走"},{"start":17457.648,"end":17470.282,"text":"我希望策展就是一個最好說政策的方式走到國外讓大家 seeing is believing其實我們的ICDF我們的國和會也在很多的地方都有這個策展我跟您回饋要分享給大家我在當市議員的時候正因為我"},{"start":17476.189,"end":17499.182,"text":"推動協助了一群十個七年級的年輕人要前進2015年的米蘭世博台灣沒有辦法以官方的名義參與世博那一年開了一個公民團體的新的形態所以一群交通大學建築系的學生來找我那時候是市議員的吳思堯說思堯姐姐我們要去米蘭世博大家一起來成就"},{"start":17499.762,"end":17504.566,"text":"所以公民力量自主參與國際社會大Mega Event的變車從米蘭的OP2GO我們收到很大的收穫下一頁"},{"start":17510.583,"end":17539.963,"text":"所以我們協助年輕世代在米蘭蓋起了一個臺灣館是年輕的建築系學生我們號召所有米蘭的外國留學生臺商一起來我們弄一個車子就是茶車在米蘭士博的會場去奉茶臺灣最好的茶還有館車樓我們還設了一個臺灣館把我們的米粉湯把我們的洋蔥炒蛋把我們的蘿蔔飯珍珠奶茶帶到米蘭去因為那一年米蘭士博的主題是食物"},{"start":17541.164,"end":17552.399,"text":"當初我邀請了蔡英文那時候是主席賴清德是台南市長我也曾經邀請是台北市長的柯文哲一起來響應獲得很好的效果而且大家一起來捐錢下一頁"},{"start":17554.815,"end":17569.127,"text":"所以我們獲得很好的國際宣傳的成果我時間有限我不再多說下一頁也在米蘭士博的經驗之下我擔任立委我搭配每一次的Mega Event我成功的跟文化部催生了在2021年的東京奧運以文化為主題我們把展演把設計力台灣文化周帶到東京去下一頁"},{"start":17577.914,"end":17597.456,"text":"這都是過去有視覺藝術有設計的展覽下一頁有表演藝術把我們的最好的舞舞蹈的創作最好的音樂的創作連瓜喜都可以跟日本藝術家劉美和來合作這是公眾外交文化力量無限強大的台灣名利下一頁最後了"},{"start":17598.457,"end":17613.526,"text":"所以善用Mega Event打造台灣的國家品牌2024年我同樣的督促了文化部要前進巴黎奧運目前也在如火如荼的進行而下一個機會就是明年的"},{"start":17614.848,"end":17639.151,"text":"萬博大阪我不曉得大家有沒有準備公眾外交文化外交用人民的力量用藝術文化的力量搭配Mega Event是台灣走出去很珍貴的機會我謝謝吳部長這幾年協助我支持我每當我需要為公民朋友找資源的時候外交部全力協助但未來您離開了這個崗位"},{"start":17640.732,"end":17660.526,"text":"在場每一位外交部的同仁請把公眾外交．無限強大的臺灣名利．文化利．扛在肩上．可以為臺灣打每一場．漂亮的外交勝戰．可以嗎．可以沒有問題．我們的同仁會承接這個責任．今天很依依不捨．到未來我們還是會繼續見面．大家加油謝謝謝謝我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":17682.846,"end":17685.708,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17698.937,"end":17699.118,"text":"主席"},{"start":17703.863,"end":17704.263,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17732.845,"end":17733.386,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17765.242,"end":17774.405,"text":"國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會"},{"start":17990.845,"end":18007.812,"text":"我們開始繼續開會待會因為部長說不休息那等一下如果有準備便當大家就在座位上面先用接下來請郭鈺請委員上台質詢"},{"start":18016.805,"end":18018.872,"text":"謝謝主席,辛苦了,有請部長"},{"start":18026.428,"end":18054.287,"text":"部長午安這是我第一次到這個國防外交委員會但也是最後一次在您備詢的時候跟您見面我非常的榮幸好那我想今天大家都聚焦在我們的國防或者是我們的外交的部分那當然我們也知道其實外交部在這幾年當中在您的帶領下辛苦的各位外交部的同仁們大家都做了非常非常多的一些努力讓世界看見台灣讓國際看見台灣台灣已經是一個非常重要的"},{"start":18055.609,"end":18056.729,"text":"下一張部長知道這是什麼嗎?"},{"start":18081.235,"end":18105.378,"text":"這是烏克蘭國旗的顏色是這是我手作的我本來今天應該要帶來的但不知道因為會到現在才質詢到您這樣子我本來想要在部長這個最後一次在這個地方然後親手送給您我自己手作的烏克蘭我相信其實不管是民間也好我們臺灣也好對於烏克蘭的援助其實真的都不分任何任何的一個"},{"start":18106.859,"end":18129.99,"text":"沒有任何的界限然後那我們不管是從醫療方面或者是在我們的實質的一些援助的部分其實我們也提供給烏克蘭很多這方面的一些幫助那我想在這一次呢我們的援助的部分其實捷克的特使他們也特別有特別提到甚至公開的表示我們的援救的物資到了戰線的前線的時候"},{"start":18131.771,"end":18144.618,"text":"這個效果其實甚至比起美國國際的開發署甚至歐洲的復興開發銀行等等這些大咖還要更來的實際更來的有力量那這是我們台灣其實真的"},{"start":18145.356,"end":18145.476,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18177.595,"end":18195.778,"text":"的確我們跟捷克的這個討論過程當中大家都是很有誠意的希望能夠來協助烏克蘭那因為烏克蘭目前在戰亂當中我們在那邊也沒有人能夠實際到那個所需要的這些地方去看他們缺什麼樣的東西是"},{"start":18196.418,"end":18219.925,"text":"捷克政府就非常好指定了CHTI這一個機構來作為一個中介的單位讓他們的人能夠實際到前線去提供這些必要的這些器材資源等等的所以這是一個非常具有誠意的一個合作的項目但是如果說在這個過程當中被形容為這個可能裡面有貪汙"},{"start":18220.865,"end":18230.26,"text":"李銘可能有政治利益介入或者是說提供這些不當的政治利益給一些政治人物等等的那我想我們的這些好朋友聽了一定會覺得很難過"},{"start":18231.798,"end":18252.467,"text":"這其實也阻礙了我們台灣對外的外交的關係的途徑更填了另外一種不同的變數但我們萬萬沒有想到這個變數會出現在立法院那我想特別在針對這個政大選舉政治大學他們這個選舉研究中心特別做的在去年的一個民調"},{"start":18254.428,"end":18269.603,"text":"其實他們在2月份也公布了這份民調他說61.7%的人其實我們的民眾都認為自己本身就是台灣人只有2.4%的人認為自己是中國人這已經創下整個所有的民調的一個記錄從1992年以來"},{"start":18273.426,"end":18299.414,"text":"當時認為自己是中國人的是25.5%到現在只剩下2.4%我相信我們都以愛這片土地身為台灣人為榮但我萬萬也沒有想到這2.4%有可能有大部分是在我們立法院當中因為他們前一陣子才去中國嘛那名字被唸反了其實也無所謂好那再來其實我真的要強調的既然我們手上有這份這個叫做"},{"start":18300.469,"end":18301.65,"text":"這是一個處理的方式 沒有錯"},{"start":18329.167,"end":18336.706,"text":"好,B.B.迭雷花音有113位的立法委員,為什麼唯獨只提告那一位呢?"},{"start":18337.383,"end":18364.398,"text":"因為我們在那個公眾的媒體上面已經看到了就把整個文件秀出來那這個就是違背了我們當時要把這個文件列密的這個原因我們也認為說這個文件如果說對外來完整透露的話可能會影響到我們跟其他國家之間的這個關係影響到我們去協助烏克蘭甚至是影響到我們的整體的國家利益所以覺得說這個是不能夠再放任下去"},{"start":18364.838,"end":18379.627,"text":"是 所以我們是提告有據 對不對是 很明顯的違反刑法第132條除了刑法第132條以外是不是還包含國家秘密保護法的部分這個部分是不是也會加入討論"},{"start":18380.828,"end":18399.108,"text":"我們所看到的公文是以秘來區分所以它不是國家機密保護法裡面所定義的機密但是這個已經構成國防以外的秘密所以是違反了刑法第132條"},{"start":18400.569,"end":18414.403,"text":"我最想要說的是如果有很多其他的委員說這份其實不算秘密文件那為什麼其他人他們不拿出來從來沒有人把這個秘密文件公開過對並沒有其他的狀況發生也從來沒有過"},{"start":18416.505,"end":18416.885,"text":"國際合作與關外"},{"start":18438.737,"end":18445.34,"text":"是,那另外就是很多人在講到所謂的政府採購法在這裡我不知道我的解讀對不對這個政府採購法其實是針對台灣本身的一些財團或者法人嘛是針對台灣嘛所以其實不適用所謂的外國的團體或法人應該這麼講對不對他們是不適用這樣的部分"},{"start":18457.586,"end":18480.237,"text":"那我剛剛有特別提到臺灣的醫療的品質其實舉世聞名這也真的是毋庸置疑啦那這次其實我們也希望說在臺灣就所謂的衛生組織或者是在加強所謂的醫療衛生的部分其實已經是全球的一個共識了所以其實包含加入所謂的跨國疾病的一個防治參與積極的參與這個國際的組織也是我們特別在將來"},{"start":18485.64,"end":18503.136,"text":"也是現在現階段在我們的外交政策當中其實是非常非常有必要性的好那剛剛其實也有委員稍早的時候他有提到他說我們這個秘密文件裡頭是不是有圖利其他的廠商然後或者是說那我這我又要鼓勵我的這個臺灣的廠商"},{"start":18504.677,"end":18505.358,"text":"我是不曉得那個邏輯在哪裡我可不可以請部長來這邊"},{"start":18525.433,"end":18550.321,"text":"謝謝委員我這邊簡單的說明一下就是說如果是在國內採購的話當然就是使用我們國內的那個採購相關的法規來處理那但是這個是一個其他國家的這個NGO那他們在採購的時候就必須要符合當地的那個政府的規範那因為這個是在歐洲國家就也必須要去符合歐盟相關的這些規範而且他們的規範是採高標準的"},{"start":18552.702,"end":18571.532,"text":"那所以當這個當地的non-profit organization要去執行我們的這個業務的時候那他們只要去符合他們的這個法律規範就好跟我們的採購法是毫無關聯好這樣子我就懂了好那當然最後一點點的時間就是部長在這裡非常謝謝您"},{"start":18572.332,"end":18572.352,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":18591.843,"end":18592.143,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢"},{"start":18625.761,"end":18627.481,"text":"謝謝主席 想邀請部長"},{"start":18635.936,"end":18663.139,"text":"部長好我想第77屆的WHA在5月27號到6月1號在瑞士日內瓦要舉行那麼我們過去在2009年開始連續8年是以觀察員的身份出席WHA是嗎這個是全國這個民眾都非常期待的但是我們要看到從2017年我們就沒有再獲邀請為什麼呢"},{"start":18666.242,"end":18679.674,"text":"就是因為中國的阻撓就這個理由就這個原因世界衛生組織並改稱要台灣與會 須先取得各國會員國的同意是嗎?"},{"start":18681.841,"end":18698.468,"text":"世界衛生組織是這樣子講那我們也盡量爭取向這個有盟國家向美國日本等等的這些國家來支持我們那在過去這段時間也越來越多的這些有盟國家理念相近國家出來力挺我們透過各種不同的這個方式來挺我們"},{"start":18699.645,"end":18727.061,"text":"這是我們也非常讚許各種國家就像美國國務卿布林肯他5月初就在這個月他也發表了台灣以觀察員身份參與第77屆世界衛生大會聲明強力的來鼓勵世界衛生組織能夠恢復邀請台灣觀察員的身份參加WHA但是我們也很清楚"},{"start":18728.496,"end":18742.765,"text":"金箍罩在於他必須要有取得各會員國的同意是嗎這個是譚德塞說的對那所以在這樣的情況之下我們有什麼有效的策略能夠來參與"},{"start":18746.098,"end":18766.68,"text":"這邊非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說在那個世界衛生組織裡面有一個很大的一個voting block其實就是Global South那這個是那個跟著中國走的那我們是要走一條比較長遠的道路就是需要去吸引更多的這些自由民主的這個國家來支持我們"},{"start":18767.581,"end":18794.103,"text":"在過去這段時間支持我們的這些國家是越來越多了那我們必須要長此以往繼續努力下去爭取更多的國家來協助我們所以如果我們聽到外交部這個努力我們給予這個肯定但是如果以部長您的身份認為我們還有其他的什麼方式如果這一個部分沒有辦法去解決似乎"},{"start":18794.904,"end":18823.357,"text":"人民的期待會落空你看人民多勇敢即使我們沒有辦法進入即使我們沒有辦法得到邀請仍舊還是很多的國人到場外去支持到場外去拿廣告單到場外去吶喊這就是我們台灣人的精神嘛那如果是這樣的話那在行政部門民眾的部分民間大家全力的支持"},{"start":18823.917,"end":18831.124,"text":"那我我們行政部門還有什麼的方案如果我們只有聽到說我要長遠要怎麼樣但是實際上沒有辦法去解決這個問題那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":18837.498,"end":18853.619,"text":"真的非常感謝委員對我們參與世界衛生組織的關心畢竟這個是涉及到我們全國的安全那個健康的安全對嘛尤其我們又是全世界在衛生組織裡頭可以說我們的各階層是最嚴密的"},{"start":18855.201,"end":18877.3,"text":"對那這個有三個方式跟委員說明一下第一個就是說透過在世界衛生大會的這個期間我們去安排雙邊的這個會議讓我們國家跟其他國家的那個衛生官員關係能夠更加緊密那第二個是透過我們的專家學者甚至是官員去參加世界衛生大會世界衛生組織相關的這些會議專家會議等等的"},{"start":18881.143,"end":18907.612,"text":"目前我們被接受的程度是越來越高的比例是不斷的上升第三個要徹底打破中國在國際社會上面封鎖我們關鍵就是2758號決議案我相信委員一定有看到美國的副助理國務卿跟助理國務卿針對這個事情都有強烈的發言而且美國會協助我們去爭取更多的這些理念相近國家接受美國的這個看法"},{"start":18908.152,"end":18908.533,"text":"之所以本席願意給你"},{"start":18919.366,"end":18919.546,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":18939.373,"end":18953.202,"text":"我非常的贊成我們的態度一向都是我們的態度我們自己的政策我們的態度就是我們歡迎那個兩岸能夠有這種和平的對話那我們這邊也不會挑釁但是涉及到我們自己立場的話我們會很穩定"},{"start":18955.123,"end":18972.784,"text":"當然所以我也歡喜聽到部長你在520之前說出了這番話也就是兩岸的和平對談兩岸的和平交流我們也不挑釁這個絕對是對我們整個在外交方面是有很大的一個幫助是嗎"},{"start":18973.846,"end":18986.665,"text":"這是我們的態度一向都是我們的態度換句話說也認同本席所說的這是有所幫助的所以在這樣的情況之下我們朝這個方向但是我們又看到目前我們的邦交國是有幾國"},{"start":18988.199,"end":19003.052,"text":"我們是12個邦交國幾個啊?12個那最近發生的這個事情好像跟我們自己預估的這個這個樣態不太一樣是嗎?那個委員是提哪一個最近?"},{"start":19004.645,"end":19005.986,"text":"在要斷交之前你們有研判已經要斷交嗎?你沒有知道那個時間點嗎?"},{"start":19021.975,"end":19022.736,"text":"外界又有猜測海地跟瓜地馬拉?"},{"start":19039.642,"end":19065.77,"text":"有這種訊息嗎?民眾好緊張欸有嗎?跟委員報告很緊張欸其實我有最近有說過幾次包括今天早上在我們的那個委員會裡面已經有說過就是說我們有一個友邦他是長期的這個內部的這個紛擾啦那這個是我們的長期的隱憂那雖然說最近的這段時間在短中期間"},{"start":19067.931,"end":19079.34,"text":"我們對他們的協助所以邦交沒有問題本席待會再跟你討論你現在講的這個問題就是本席所提問海地跟掛地馬拉目前都正常吧"},{"start":19079.599,"end":19079.659,"text":"巴拉圭"},{"start":19098.43,"end":19128.05,"text":"巴拉圭是大豆跟牛肉出口最大的國家他甚至在全球大豆是排名第4牛肉是第8在這樣的情況之下隔壁的巴西跟阿根廷那會不會有所影響?不會巴拉圭跟我們關係很好520的時候貝納總統他會親自來參加大家看到他的時候你就知道說我們的關係是非常好的"},{"start":19129.009,"end":19151.219,"text":"所以請大家放心因為他的大豆跟牛肉跟我們長期這麼有幫我們買了他們很多的這些牛肉當然啊所以我告訴你他是目前全球他出口多少那就是有人有所質疑但是我們希望我們要謹慎嚴正以對那所以在這樣的情況之下部長"},{"start":19152.896,"end":19166.95,"text":"你的努力大家有看到但是我們面對到我們現在剩下12個國家的邦交國那所以在這樣的情況之下你認為你要給期許新政府上任的外交大方向有什麼期免嗎?"},{"start":19168.693,"end":19194.652,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下就是說過去這段時間我們的確在邦交國的部分是面臨很大的壓力但是在這些壓力之下我們必須要去努力開拓我們台灣的這個國際空間那我們跟美國跟歐洲很多的國家跟日本跟澳洲等等的這些國家的關係都有長足的這個進展那尤其是國際社會只要有這種高峰會的時候他們一定會提到台灣"},{"start":19195.533,"end":19223.021,"text":"新的這個政府外交的系統裡頭我有跟後任的外交部長說明就是目前的這個外交的這個方向那我相信等他上任之後他也會去考慮看除了這個方向之外是不是還有其他我們可以開拓的目標所以美日歐當然對我們很重要我們現在的邦交國也維持不能忽略但最重要的是整個國際組織"},{"start":19224.701,"end":19224.721,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":19254.163,"end":19263.006,"text":"謝謝 接下來請羅明財委員 羅明財 羅明財委員不在 請牛許廷委員 牛許廷 牛許廷委員不在 請范雲委員上台質詢謝謝召委 有請部長請部長"},{"start":19284.875,"end":19285.256,"text":"范委員好"},{"start":19300.359,"end":19329.408,"text":"聽了早上徐巧欣委員質詢的議題我覺得有些風向被亂帶真的不是很好您今天一直有提到CHTI據我的了解第一個捷克是個民主國家我自己曾經因為開iPad會議我們到捷克知道我們部長對捷克用心跟成果非常的高而且他的民主國家內部就有一定的監督機制另一方面我剛剛也有看到新聞就是"},{"start":19331.568,"end":19353.114,"text":"捷克的烏克蘭重建特使科佩尼齊尼有特別解釋了一下CHTI是他們捷克政府指定的有經驗有公信力的NPO所以我想不知道部長是不是能夠澄清一下外界的這些謠言"},{"start":19354.574,"end":19380.203,"text":"我們這個案子涉及多少台商與多少台商合作目前採購的情況如何還有為什麼是CHTI這個組織非常謝謝委員也非常謝謝委員對我們外交部的期許的確我們跟捷克之間的關係是非常的深厚尤其是我個人在臺灣捷克的關係上面也下了很多的功夫"},{"start":19380.743,"end":19405.944,"text":"那我也很高興就是捷克政府尤其是參議院他也認可了我在台捷關係方面的這個貢獻所以他們頒給我一個勳章這個就是捷克參議長送給我勳章的這個勳表那我隨時帶著也跟我自己講說台灣捷克的關係對我們來講是非常的重要我要隨時來捍衛來強化我們台灣跟捷克的這個關係"},{"start":19407.765,"end":19424.071,"text":"CHTI這個機構是一個non-profit organization很容易上網去看到這個non-profit organization他們自己的這個宗旨那他跟捷克的很多的政府部門是有非常深厚的這種合作的關係不管是外交部、經濟部、衛福部等等的"},{"start":19424.631,"end":19449.842,"text":"那最主要原因就是說這個CHTI這個nonprofit organization他在很多的這些援助方面的這個執行的成果非常的這個著重因此當我們跟捷克的政府討論到就是說希望能夠透過雙邊的合作來協助烏克蘭人協助烏克蘭人的時候他們也非常的高興就是說這個機構就是the most reputable"},{"start":19452.183,"end":19459.669,"text":"所以我們就跟捷克政府責定了這個機構來作為我們去援助烏克蘭的一個指定的機構那"},{"start":19461.84,"end":19486.036,"text":"我們也了解到就是說要對那個雙邊都需要有一個監督的這個機制也因此成立了一個雙邊政府所成立的一個監督的這個機制透過這個監督的機制來監督這個CHTI對外援助的這個成果那另外他們也必須要跟我們那個提交其中報告來說明他們所做的這些成果"},{"start":19487.709,"end":19507.496,"text":"這個是最主要的回答委員剛剛所說的另外今天早上也有一些委員提到為什麼烏克蘭提出的這些需求清單還有人提說要依據什麼我國政府採購法據我瞭解CHDI它本來就會依據捷克跟歐盟的採購法規嗎沒有錯"},{"start":19510.597,"end":19526.223,"text":"關於烏克蘭為什麼不能請烏克蘭提出需求清單我想部長也可以說明一下至少我的了解烏克蘭臺灣中國這些其實俄國這關係是相當敏感的烏克蘭的國會議員都會表達那部長可以解釋一下嗎雖然說我們跟少數的那個烏克蘭"},{"start":19526.843,"end":19530.905,"text":"中央政府還是非常關注中國可能的態度因為中國的這個可能態度會影響到俄羅斯對他們的侵略"},{"start":19551.195,"end":19576.398,"text":"也因此我們必須要去透過一個中介的這個國家跟我們非常友好像捷克對我們這麼友好的國家他們能夠派像CHTI這個機構深入到當地去了解他們實際的這個需求然後來做這些必要的採購那到目前為止他們已經有拍了一個短短的這個video跟各界講說這些東西就是捷克跟台灣合作所呈現的一個成果"},{"start":19576.818,"end":19590.923,"text":"那如果說要用那個採購法的話這個絕對是not applicable因為他是捷克的一個單位那他們那邊要買絕對是需要符合當地的這個法規也要符合歐盟的非常高標準的這個相關的規範"},{"start":19592.722,"end":19617.514,"text":"謝謝部長的說明我想捷克是個民主國家然後他必須遵守歐盟的相關的規範採購我想這個部分的公信力我是非常的相信而且烏克蘭的狀況以我透過iPad接觸過的烏克蘭的國會議員我知道他們對所謂的台中或者中台關係是非常謹慎的所以我非常支持就是部長的做法經由第三國而且捷克跟我們相當有信任關係了"},{"start":19618.655,"end":19637.824,"text":"那個委員剛剛提到IPAC真的是要非常的感謝啦就是IPAC是一個非常重要的那個民主國家所成立的一個議會間的組織那在我們的努力之下7月下旬的時候這個IPAC就會來到我們台灣召開一個大會"},{"start":19638.744,"end":19656.15,"text":"那這個對我們台灣來講就是一個非常重要的一個機會讓我們台灣能夠呈現給這個國際組織也讓國際組織能夠實際上到台灣來展現對台灣的支持所以要謝謝委員在這方面的努力我想這個外交部也一起努力我代表台灣就是"},{"start":19656.85,"end":19681.888,"text":"因為我們的其他的就是只有時代力量跟民進黨有派代表那過去民眾黨跟國民黨一直不願意派代表不過他們現在好像有些突破所以IPAD這個部分那也謝謝大家一起的努力那我想因為IPAD我們台灣能夠有他現在好像已經有好像超過150個國會議員參與了那真的是非常重要的網絡那所以這部分真的是多方努力了"},{"start":19682.288,"end":19700.059,"text":"其實我今天也想跟部長談一下就是我從擔任無人所大使那就接受外交部的協助剛剛講的您跟吳釗委員講到婦女權益的部分我們就再透過就是我們的駐美的代表的部分那參與了CSW的一個平行NGO的論壇"},{"start":19701.66,"end":19728.522,"text":"當時我也對臺灣的婦女參政做了一個報告那非常多我們友邦的大使到那另外就是國會外交的部分我們也去了英國、比利時、德國還有後來的捷克還有參加IPEC哥本哈根的Democracy Summit還有印度的瑞辛娜對話我非常的榮幸有機會代表我們臺灣參加那我真的非常肯定外交部第一線工作者的努力而且我認為部長任內"},{"start":19729.963,"end":19731.384,"text":"指派的大使"},{"start":19760.624,"end":19779.344,"text":"在這方面我覺得非常的自豪就是說當我們沒有新聞局之後國家的發言人照說就應該要有外交部長來擔任那自從我接任外交部長之後有很多的國際媒體希望能夠聽到台灣的聲音每一次有人要找我一定都接受一定來安排"},{"start":19780.144,"end":19796.018,"text":"這個是我覺得我對台灣的這一個必要去做的一個任務讓全世界都能夠聽到我們台灣的聲音那到目前為止已經有328場那這個禮拜五這個禮拜五我工作的最後一天我還要接受另外一家媒體的這個訪問"},{"start":19797.279,"end":19826.313,"text":"那我覺得說這個事情是不能停的因為我們臺灣的聲音要被國際社會所聽聞那外交部長或者是說我們駐外的大使對外發言代表臺灣來發言那這個是一個非常重要的工具好謝謝因為我曾經受外交部邀請寫了一篇從利益外交到價值外交的文章登在你們的刊物上我也很高興我們賴清的準中最近就說外來就是價值外交的路線那因為時間的緣故那我個人是非常肯定就是"},{"start":19826.853,"end":19849.851,"text":"吳部長任內我們外交的成果讓我們的外交雖然兩岸關係緊張可是外交關係可以發展到最高峰我認為您就是功不可沒那真的陸力而為率領整個團隊那我也想藉著時間請問您對下一任部長如果有一件事是您的遺憾希望他努力的您會說是哪一件功成您還沒有做完希望他奮力去努力的部分呢"},{"start":19851.032,"end":19870.443,"text":"我有跟他提到說目前在進行的這些項目我相信他也非常的了解就是說很多持續性的這些東西他應該是可以持續的來進行那因為外交很多都是機密的這些項目那在這邊就不方便跟委員來說說明這樣子"},{"start":19871.544,"end":19894.653,"text":"了解,那我也非常肯定外交就是有為有守該守密的部分我們是說所有人不分立委公民都應該守密那該積極進取的部分不管是公共外交價值外交我覺得在吳部長任內這條路線是走出台灣的一條路那再次謝謝吳部長的辛勞那未來您在國安的議題上我們大家一起繼續加油感謝會繼續努力謝謝委員"},{"start":19898.493,"end":19902.054,"text":"好接下來請陳培宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝部長辛苦了我實在是不忍心再請您起來發言"},{"start":19921.181,"end":19947.518,"text":"好,謝謝部長謝謝,謝謝委員好,是,部長您即將卸任了那我過去雖然只有地補一年但其實之前在很多議題上也跟部長有說有一些接觸那我想要在您卸任之前呢送一本我自己非常喜歡的繪本也呼應最近您在這個線上所有非常辛苦的議題這本書的書名就叫做《人你有權利》部長你覺得你看到這個書名你會想到什麼"},{"start":19948.138,"end":19970.953,"text":"我會想到我們台灣人在國際社會上面被剝奪的那些但是那個應該是我們的權利沒錯謝謝部長我們都沒有對過但是你完全抓到我的重點這本書它的樣貌是繪本它是寫給兒童跟青少年看的可是我們要知道所有人的權利這件事情不是只有兒童跟青少年必須要學習裡面有一段話我想念給部長聽等一下再把這個書送給部長是"},{"start":19977.68,"end":20001.17,"text":"這本書的內容是從世界人權宣言裡面揭露而來的但是呢它化為一張一張的插圖跟擷取裡面重要的片段跟兒童青少年溝通也就是說兒童跟青少年不只要知道有這些權利是公民社會運作的基礎基本上孩子們也要知道他們這些權利要被尊重所以我們付出然後但是我們要得到尊重其中有一段話是這麼寫的"},{"start":20002.932,"end":20024.188,"text":"每個人都有權利擁有自己的私事秘密隱私沒有正當理由沒有獲得允許不可以窺探別人的生活部長你聽完以後有什麼感覺?Privacy很重要那個機密的這些東西也很重要"},{"start":20024.628,"end":20041.141,"text":"在個人的生活是這樣對嗎部長你應該有小孩嗎有如果你的小孩把他的門關起來說他需要一點個人的時間那你沒有敲敲門進去之前你是不能隨便打開門進去的嗎我相信你一定是一個開明的父親所以我們在個人的生活領域是這樣在個人的學習領域是這樣那部長您認為在公共事務的領域我們是不是也要遵守這個原則"},{"start":20052.369,"end":20052.789,"text":"部長你覺得我們怎麼跟國人交代?"},{"start":20067.775,"end":20083.224,"text":"我覺得這個也是非常的重要啦我今天已經形容過一次就是說好像那個街道上有紅綠燈那你如果覺得說這個紅綠燈你不想遵守你闖紅綠燈的話搞不好會造成一些交通的這個事故那就不好了"},{"start":20083.789,"end":20109.925,"text":"那甚至是造成那個交通的事故之後回頭過來說這個紅綠燈不應該設置那這樣子就是不好的為了要維繫我們國家的這個外交的這個利益或者是國家的安全戰略利益等等有些該列為機密的這些東西就應該被保守機密那我想這個是我們外交部的處理的一項的這個原則那我們也知道說要對那個立法院這邊"},{"start":20111.045,"end":20130.647,"text":"要負責也因此有一些項目我們就是分送給立法院但是也會提醒說這個事情是密在上面會蓋一個章是密那如果說需要我們這邊來做協助說明的那我們也會協助來做說明但是這一個規則已經有法律相關的規範在那邊那我們就應該依照法律相關的規範來進行"},{"start":20132.088,"end":20151.235,"text":"好,謝謝部長的說明你剛剛這段說明我絕對會單獨把它剪下來放在我們辦公室的影片上為什麼我要這麼說過往我在帶青少年讀書會或者是在跟青少年溝通所謂身為一個公民他必須要開始學習所謂社會溝通我們常常跟孩子們提到一個很重要的事情就是部長您剛剛說的紅綠燈"},{"start":20152.896,"end":20177.22,"text":"孩子們都會問我為什麼要遵守框架為什麼要遵守法律為什麼不能做所有我想做的事情我想做就是我想做這是我的個人自由但是在法國的哲學系統裡面告訴很多青少年在他們的兒童時期就開始告訴他們所謂的自由是必須在保障每個人的自由情況下在有框架底下每個人才得以自由"},{"start":20177.58,"end":20179.76,"text":"所以非常謝謝部長您剛那個深入淺出的說法因為確實我也跟我們家小孩討論到這件事情那我們接下來問下面一個問題來下一頁"},{"start":20208.312,"end":20226.579,"text":"臺灣遭中國惡意打壓又沒有受邀參加WHA國台辦瞎扯說這是民進黨造成的我想部長你跟我不一樣你應該沒有入黨行政中立對不對我有入黨但是在進入到外交部門之後我跟同仁的約束就是說我會保護"},{"start":20227.199,"end":20228.7,"text":"國民黨總召傅昆齊到中國北京市政與政協主席見面"},{"start":20242.873,"end":20264.022,"text":"你覺得他有沒有跟人家談到WHA的事情或者是他有沒有談到跟任何外交、國防可能有異議的事情你有沒有在蒐集相關的訊息我沒有相關的這些資訊我個人真的非常好奇所以您在回應這個國台辦說台灣沒有辦法參加WHA是民進黨所造成的部長您說這是荒謬的言論你要不要多說一點"},{"start":20265.31,"end":20293.732,"text":"我想我們台灣沒有辦法參加世界衛生組織相關的這些向世界衛生大會的這個活動只有一個原因就是因為中國阻撓那尤其是中國透過扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議案的方式來說明我們台灣屬於中國所以如果說要參與的話要透過中國那因為我們台灣不接受那個台灣是中國的一部分所以沒有辦法參加所以他的這種說法是"},{"start":20294.392,"end":20311.222,"text":"無法被接受的那尤其是他有時候還會對外面來說謊說他已經在照顧我們台灣人的健康福利的這些權利那這個是剛好是相反的他透過打壓那個台灣參與世界衛生大會或者是世界衛生組織活動的這些作為"},{"start":20313.643,"end":20315.144,"text":"我可不可以解讀成這是一種他們對我們的恐嚇跟威脅"},{"start":20338.097,"end":20356.587,"text":"我再念其中一頁給部長聽這本書我一定會送給部長他說每個人都有權利安全的生活沒有人可以威脅恐嚇別人如果沒有正當理由不可以剝奪他人的自由部長你覺得他們現在有正當理由嗎"},{"start":20357.401,"end":20373.894,"text":"他們沒有正當理由就是政治就是政治他們就是不希望台灣能夠被國際社會所接納那委員剛剛念的那一段其實對我來講這個感觸非常的深就是2003年的時候我們台灣遭逢SARS"},{"start":20374.454,"end":20391.721,"text":"那我們台灣的這個衛福部向世界衛生組織去申請協助那到最後一定要等到我們的和平醫院大爆發的時候世界衛生組織才會派四個專家到我們台灣來那但是這個四個專家到我們台灣來還奉世界衛生組織秘書處的這個要求"},{"start":20394.522,"end":20423.928,"text":"不能夠跟我們台灣的這個衛生官員有任何的見面接觸或者是討論那可是中國的這種大使外交官卻在國際社會上面去宣稱說他們在照顧台灣人民的這個安全那我對國際媒體當時對國際媒體的反應就是說It's a shameless lie那到目前為止我的態度都是一致的中國沒有在照顧我們中國只有在阻撓我們那我再說一個例子讓大家那個回想一下"},{"start":20429.494,"end":20444.171,"text":"1998年的時候我們台灣也遭逢了那個長病毒的大流行那時候我小朋友非常的小學校幼稚園很多都關起來了游泳池不開了那要出去的話那個小朋友是不適合帶出去的"},{"start":20444.691,"end":20470.281,"text":"那小朋友被隨時要教導說要一直要洗手一直要洗手那可是像我上班回家看到我小朋友還好好的時候我那時候就會非常的感動就是說我的小朋友是沒有受到影響的可是去想像有很多受到影響的這些小朋友就是因為世界衛生組織在中國的阻擾之下沒有接受我們台灣所提出的這個協助的要求"},{"start":20471.041,"end":20471.061,"text":"好"},{"start":20490.066,"end":20490.246,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝部長"},{"start":20523.205,"end":20527.227,"text":"謝謝 接下來請王振旭委員上台質詢謝謝主席還是麻煩吳部長請部長抱歉失禮失禮"},{"start":20551.611,"end":20572.692,"text":"委員 這是我的責任來這邊接受備詢部長你好我來自異界所以一直都在衛防委員會這是第一次到這個外交跟衛防委員會來請教事情答詢就是包括今天的主題就是怎麼樣讓國際的社會可以支持台灣來參與WHA"},{"start":20575.371,"end":20599.241,"text":"我剛才說到SARS、腸病毒我真的都感同身受因為我們在醫院看到的就是這麼辛苦尤其SARS那段時間我常跟體系服務我們的同仁很勇敢地去救治我們這些病人可是他也難逆的後來他幾乎肺衰竭"},{"start":20600.562,"end":20616.22,"text":"經過二十多年來的復健,你現在慢慢的比較好所以參與國際社會,尤其是健康的部分尤其是這種疾病,突發性疾病對於台灣的衝擊真的非常非常的大很可惜,我們"},{"start":20616.801,"end":20639.6,"text":"如果持續這樣的被排擠應該是社會的損失國際的損失同時也希望我們未來能夠在部長往後持續下一任的部長努力之下能夠把這樣的狀況可以有效的去扭轉那真的是這個中國的打壓對我們來講真的是要嚴厲譴責這起來其實很不得力"},{"start":20641.784,"end":20664.321,"text":"兩千三百萬人也是很重要的人口結構而且我們有能力可以去透過我們去協助社會、協助世界他們也需要我們,我們也互相能夠透過大家去把該有的事情做好其實不知道是什麼原因,到底能不能保證、能不能講、說明一下到底我們是受了什麼危困"},{"start":20665.301,"end":20688.348,"text":"我想中國就是對台灣有這個政治的企圖來完成他們對外擴張的這個野心所以他們對台灣就是宣稱說台灣是屬於中華人民共和國的那為了要達成他們這個目標他們要對台灣實施軍事威脅實施經濟脅迫甚至是打壓台灣的這個國際空間"},{"start":20690.49,"end":20707.629,"text":"尤其是外交外交就是一個主權的展現主權的這個象徵所以這個就是一個中國打壓的一個重災區那但是無論是中國怎樣打壓我們的國人我們的政府尤其是我們的外交部門是沒有任何洩氣的理由"},{"start":20708.129,"end":20729.89,"text":"沒有任何不繼續努力去爭取的這個原因那所以在過去這段時間即使中國對我們的這個外交壓力是越來越大但是也在我們同仁的這個積極的努力之下我們跟美國日本澳洲加拿大英國等等的這些國家尤其是中東歐國家的這個關係是有長足的進展"},{"start":20730.65,"end":20745.417,"text":"尤其是中東歐國家,我經常在晚談就是說,我們台灣的外交部長如果說沒有邦交國的話是很難去的那即使能夠去的話大概也沒有辦法公開但是過去這幾年你看我可以去幾個國家在東歐的國家,可以去那裡公開訪問、公開演講"},{"start":20751.28,"end":20773.104,"text":"那這個就是我們打開的一條新路那我想這一條新路是留給未來那個更多的這些努力的這種基礎那我相信接下來我們台灣在國際社會上面被接受的這種程度是會越來越高我們台灣能夠呈現給國際社會的這個程度也會越來越高那真的很感謝委員"},{"start":20774.344,"end":20796.572,"text":"致謝部長的拍面包括我們所有外交部的所有同仁真的是很用心很拍面來打開我們整個對跟外界之間的聯繫那其實衛福部薛部長也非常的努力我們都一起努力像薛部長最近就在國際媒體投書就是說台灣就是需要讓"},{"start":20798.232,"end":20816.807,"text":"社會讓全球都看得到我們到底在想要幫助全球尤其是在這些相關有重大事情發生的時候我們去接軌全球所以他也因應下一波的大流行台灣真的不能缺席"},{"start":20818.028,"end":20843.378,"text":"臺灣缺席對世界真的是一個損失所以我想我們應該要繼續朝這個地方來努力那也很謝謝外交部持續的來爭取國際的支持不管是參與這個WHA．或者是其他友好相關國家在做這部分的努力的同時能夠持續讓臺灣貢獻我們的力量這次WHA他們有提出第14期的工作計畫"},{"start":20845.038,"end":20860.372,"text":"這個工作計畫我們可能可以下面看得到的就是它有六大的工作目標包括這個因應氣候變遷帶來對健康的威脅還有怎麼去解決一些健康的因素還有推動初級健康照護等等的"},{"start":20860.912,"end":20875.644,"text":"最後一項就是有關於即時偵測並有效因應健康衛生緊急事件這就是我們台灣最能夠有機會去幫助全球或幫助我們自己的地方這個計畫其實跟我們目前賴總統當選人所提出的"},{"start":20882.169,"end":20894.443,"text":"打造健康台灣的政策是一致的這個其實就是很好的銜接所以我這次有機會參與這個WHA的這個整個活動我們就希望把這樣的理念一起帶進來能夠讓社會"},{"start":20897.907,"end":20897.967,"text":"不敢"},{"start":20923.548,"end":20949.77,"text":"我覺得我們過去這段時間在全球衛生上面的這個貢獻應該是社會大家應該是國際社會都看到了所以國際社會在看待我們的那個公衛的這個處理他們都把我們當成模範生所以這個是我們感到非常驕傲的項目那我們也跟衛福部也不斷的在合作希望能夠跟其他的國家有更多的這些衛生的這個合作"},{"start":20950.63,"end":20977.304,"text":"在過去這6年之間我擔任外交部長跟衛福部之間的這種關係是非常的緊密那我們是負責去做連續去做溝通當作一個平台那衛福部這邊不管是機關署或者是其他的這個單位他們就是專業那專業跟平台之間做一個好的結合的話是可以讓我們台灣的這個公衛的能力呈現於國際社會被當作是一個良善力量"},{"start":20978.924,"end":20996.77,"text":"謝謝所以打造健康台灣這個政策其實跟WHA是完全一致的所以我們很期待透過包括外交部還有整體我們國民的努力希望讓這個成果未來是被世界看得到而且是肯定的好謝謝接下來請林月琴委員上台質詢"},{"start":21014.086,"end":21016.609,"text":"有請我們的吳部長請部長委員你好部長好部長這是你以外交部長的身份來接受質詢的最後一週而且可能好像也是最後一個非常榮幸"},{"start":21036.874,"end":21037.314,"text":"今天事實上想跟部長討論兩個議題"},{"start":21059.506,"end":21088.533,"text":"我自己來自耳邵以前一直在做社會福利當然下一代一直是我們關心的那他們的健康更是我們關心的所以部長想問你就是說目前我們是否有收到國際衛生組織邀請以及在爭取邀請前我們的行政部門跟立法部門做了哪些努力那目前沒有收到的話那它最大的問題是什麼是政治干預還是有其他因素"},{"start":21089.877,"end":21109.972,"text":"我們還沒有收到那個邀請函那這個阻撓我們收到邀請函的來源就是一個就是中國政府在我們還沒有收到邀請函之前我們行政部門還是盡我們的全力來努力我們不到最後一刻是不會有任何這種放棄的這個念頭"},{"start":21111.813,"end":21123.761,"text":"到目前為止我們在做的這些方向比如說在安排我們的這個邦交國能夠替我們提案替我們發言或者是說這些非邦交國能夠幫我們連署能夠幫我們聯合競洽或者是說"},{"start":21128.824,"end":21149.673,"text":"在大會裡面幫我們發言那這些都是我們正在安排的那甚至是我們的衛福部長新任的衛福部長到那個日內瓦去的時候也能夠跟其他國家的重要的官員展開雙邊的這個會談能夠強化我們台灣跟其他國家的那個衛生部門的這些合作那我們台灣的立法院"},{"start":21150.533,"end":21177.041,"text":"也有四島團前往日內瓦那我們也會協助我們的這個立法委員在那邊展現我們的聲音所以這個是我們持續努力的這個一個過程那我知道我們參與世界衛生組織這是一個不容易的一個過程但是我們必須要長此以往持續的努力能夠讓更多的國家更多的機構更多的人民能夠來支持我們台灣參與世界衛生組織"},{"start":21178.661,"end":21203.138,"text":"我相信外交部做了很多那真的也要讓我們的青少年知道因為他們有一個很大的擔憂就是說我們一直受到中國的打壓尤其事實上是在82年出生之後的年輕人事實上都非常有國家意識他們覺得我們就是一個國家那可是卻讓另外一個國家來打壓我們"},{"start":21204.139,"end":21224.512,"text":"像從前幾年COVID-19的這樣的疫情爆發之後像這樣的一個全球性的是沒有任何一個人任何一個國家可以置身事外我國甚至還是在處理的在疫情爆發最早發現的國家甚至後來還積極的去協助其他國家做預防措施"},{"start":21225.072,"end":21251.541,"text":"也讓其他國家可以效法來減緩他們的疫情的一個狀況我們都願意跟國際伸出援手來可最後今年還是沒有收到WHA的會議邀請如果是如部長所言中國這麼樣強力的施壓第一個我覺得應該讓年輕的更多人知道這件事情還有我們目前還有什麼樣一個作為可以透過這多元方式參與這些世界性的一個組織"},{"start":21253.216,"end":21278.91,"text":"多元的方式當然是有就是吸引更多的國家不管他們是國會議員或者是行政部門能夠公開來聲援我們尤其是國會議員的部分從波羅的海一直到中歐一直到西歐甚至是中南美洲的這些國會議員印太地區的這些國會議員支持我們的人是越來越多了另外一個就是說政府部門"},{"start":21280.31,"end":21303.024,"text":"我們也爭取到更多的這些國家來支持我們那一個很重要的關鍵就是聯合國第2758號決議案被中國誤用被中國這種錯誤的引述造成世界衛生組織或者是聯合國等等的以為說我們台灣是屬於中華人民共和國導致我們沒有辦法去參與"},{"start":21304.025,"end":21321.932,"text":"那為了解決這件事情我們是去跟美國等等的這些國家有做過很深入的這個討論那我想委員也有看到就是說上個禮拜美國的一些資深官員也三度的出來澄清就是聯合國第2758號決議案跟中國的一個中國原則"},{"start":21322.432,"end":21322.732,"text":"通過這些說明"},{"start":21338.618,"end":21353.832,"text":"那也透過美國的朋友去跟更多的這些國家說明那這個是要剷除中國在國際社會上面對我們所施加的這個法律戰的一個必要的步驟那我們很高興就是我們跟美國的合作已經開始了這個步驟"},{"start":21355.336,"end":21356.056,"text":"有關這陣子許多委員都在討論的有關的洩密議題"},{"start":21373.388,"end":21395.71,"text":"目前我有針對此議題提出有關公益接避者法案那也就是明天要審查的就是希望避免惡意爆料跟接避混為一談因此我也修法將有關涉及到重大國家機密內容應該有一定的程序而不是隨便就可以脫口而出來跟媒體講應該要有內部的一個"},{"start":21397.892,"end":21398.852,"text":"有關機密文件是否涉及到弊案目前外交部的想法如何"},{"start":21415.139,"end":21443.442,"text":"我們那個外交部的這些相關的這些文件即使是獵密那我們也知道說接受立法院的監督非常的重要因為這個是確保go through checks and balances要確保那個我們的那個政府部門的那個這種credibility或是integrity那所以這種方式的話就是要確保立法部門能夠監督到我們行政部門"},{"start":21444.282,"end":21464.149,"text":"但是我們會劣密的這個理由是因為我們不希望公開來的話影響到我們台灣的這個外交的利益或者是國家的利益所以這些既有的這個規則如果說大家都覺得沒有問題的時候我們應該就是依照既有的規則就好像我剛剛在上一位的那個委員諮詢的時候就好像說我們路上有紅綠燈"},{"start":21465.149,"end":21490.661,"text":"這個紅綠燈規範了我們的行走的這種方式也避免了這種車禍或者是事故的發生那如果是這樣子大家都沒有問題的話那我們就繼續依照這個方式來走所以不能隨便亂搶紅燈所以立法院的確作為最高民意的有監督的責任但我覺得無論是外交國防跟涉及到國家重大機密的時候我們都應該要謹慎處理"},{"start":21492.412,"end":21520.013,"text":"所以未來部長到國安會服務我也希望能發揮所長來輔助我們的總統副總統完成更高的任務謝謝謝謝委員我會持續的努力真的是非常謝謝委員今天非常的榮幸能夠最後一次到立法院來接受備詢那在這邊要謝謝各位委員的指教也要謝謝主席今天再度邀請我到立法院來能夠在離開外交部之前還有一次接受那個立法委員詢問的這個時間謝謝大家"},{"start":21521.934,"end":21545.893,"text":"我也謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請鄭正田委員、鄭正田、鄭正田委員不在請賴慧媛委員、賴慧媛委員不在請傅坤祺、傅坤祺委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在請賴瑞龍"},{"start":21546.713,"end":21551.194,"text":"賴瑞龍委員不在﹖請林思敏委員不在﹖請吳立華委員不在﹖請張家俊委員不在﹖請陳俊宇委員不在﹖請林黛華委員不在﹖請賴世保委員不在﹖請邱毅穎委員不在﹖請吳秉瑞委員不在﹖請郭國文委員不在﹖"},{"start":21573.2,"end":21583.506,"text":"郭國文 郭國文委員不在 請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在 請陳寅陳寅 陳寅委員不在 請羅廷緯"},{"start":21587.032,"end":21595.016,"text":"羅廷維委員不在﹖請葉元芝委員不在﹖請林淑芬委員不在﹖請蔡易瑜委員不在﹖請沈發慧委員不在﹖請劉建國委員不在﹖請洪孟凱委員不在﹖請張鴻祿委員不在﹖"},{"start":21611.185,"end":21637.397,"text":"今天已登記質詢委員．除不在場外．均已發言完畢．報告及詢答結束．本日會議有牛許廷委員．翁曉琳委員．葉元之委員．張雅玲委員．林思敏委員．提出書面質詢．請列入記錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆．委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分．或要求補充資料者疫情相關單位．"},{"start":21638.618,"end":21648.415,"text":"以書面與兩週內提供委員令約定期限則從其所定本期剛剛在質詢的時候有請外交部提供的相關的資料也請送給辦公委員會那"},{"start":21653.464,"end":21663.231,"text":"謝謝部長今天特別來參與今天的這個委員會不過剛剛一直有提到那個紅綠燈的事情紅綠燈是很重要的不過紅綠燈也有受到的事改修例也要修例所以我們在這裡大家共同"},{"start":21668.695,"end":21669.115,"text":"謝謝 再次謝謝大家今天會議到此結束 散會"},{"start":21697.507,"end":21699.074,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15912","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15912","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc43dc8870a7b167e29e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be46e5a6130cc1aad595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T08:30:31+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T13:35:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":18269,"委員發言時間":"08:30:31 - 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．二．邀請司法院法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就．強制執行保單解約長．在未符比例原則分針平傳亂象如何解．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．"},{"start":2094.634,"end":2109.079,"text":"決定報告及詢答完畢第三案至第七案司法院含為113年度莊政府總預算決議檢送稅出第四款第一項決議三、四、六、七十八及七十九預算凍結書面報告請查抄案等五案"},{"start":2109.859,"end":2132.458,"text":"決定第三案至第七案均令定期繼續處理討論事項第一案至第三案司法院含有113年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第四款第一項決議一、二及五預算凍結書面報告請查詔案等三案本次會有委員沈發慧等13人提出質詢委員黃珊珊等3人提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二、第一案令定期繼續處理"},{"start":2134.019,"end":2157.174,"text":"3.第二案及第三案均准於動之提報院會4.委員質詢時要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請訴送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢好謝謝那請問在場各位對上次議會的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏好沒有的話那議事錄確定"},{"start":2159.07,"end":2186.281,"text":"好,那我們現在介紹在場的委員在場委員有黃國昌委員、翁曉寧委員那接著我們介紹在場的列席官員司法院秘書長、吳秘書長法務部常次、黃常次因為今天蔡英陽部長在花蓮另外有公務,所以"},{"start":2187.652,"end":2213.904,"text":"蔡部長請假主席不好意思會議詢問好請說請問一下主席什麼時候接到部長今天請假的通知我得到訊息是在晚上9點多吧對我得到9點多10點那邊我也忘了"},{"start":2215.41,"end":2224.364,"text":"我必須要跟主席反映一下作為司法法制委員會的委員我個人對這整件事情的看法"},{"start":2225.882,"end":2249.33,"text":"我們在準備今天法務部所提出來的專題報告總統行使特赦後未沒收的不法所得及停審未定讞案件的處理這件事情顯然在我們目前的赦免法下面法務部是主管機關這麼重要的一個專題報告"},{"start":2251.288,"end":2252.049,"text":"那這個部分是不是由黃次長回答?"},{"start":2285.77,"end":2306.572,"text":"跟委員報告那部長是告訴我說他今天到花蓮地檢署因為在這個慰勞我們這個震災的相關的檢檢調同仁的第一件事情第二件事情在花蓮有一個耕寶的團體他長期對我們法部他有非常多的這個支持所以部長今天也要到花蓮的集會也要到這個耕寶的團體去做訪視跟慰勞"},{"start":2310.185,"end":2339.331,"text":"您覺得剛剛講的那兩件事包括慰勞的部分包括感謝的部分跟今天的專題報告比起來比較重要嗎?請不要誤會我的意思喔去花蓮慰勞辛苦的檢警去感謝跟聖人保護人協會這本來都是法務部該做的事但問題是現在整個法務部是只剩下部長一個人嗎?"},{"start":2340.76,"end":2364.937,"text":"其他的市長不能夠去慰問不能去感謝嗎為什麼這麼重要的報告部長選擇刻意的不出席這我沒有辦法理解啦今天在國會裡面請法務部進行這樣的專題報告跟到花蓮去慰問去感謝放在天平上孰輕孰重"},{"start":2367.042,"end":2386.507,"text":"我相信社會大眾很清楚我相信法務部也很清楚為什麼為什麼這樣子就輕率的請假為什麼這樣就輕率的請假是因為明天就要總辭了今天能混就混嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":2392.788,"end":2421.232,"text":"跟我們報告部長這個行程他其實是既定行程他昨天就已經到屏東然後今天到花蓮他是一個連續性的行程對不起喔我請教一下請教一下召委我們排這個專案報告的議程是什麼時候出來的應該蠻早就出來啦上個禮拜就出來上禮拜部長就知道排了這個議程然後依然執意排要去屏東排要去花蓮現在是在做畢業旅行嗎"},{"start":2423.518,"end":2448.435,"text":"因為我昨天知道訊息的時候蔡部長人已經在花臉了所以我昨天聽到的是跟我講說他人都已經在花臉所以嘛對於法務部部長來講沒有把召委所排定的議程當一回事嘛如果召委是上禮拜議程就排出來了身為法務部部長在上禮拜看到立法院的議程"},{"start":2450.131,"end":2472.004,"text":"依然沒有先事先請好假就毅然決然的自己跑去南部跑去東部那所以部長踩準的立場是什麼他踩穩的是反正我就是不要來啊我不來就是要請假啊朝委也拿我沒有皮條啊不是這樣嗎如果我有說錯請指正"},{"start":2478.308,"end":2500.439,"text":"但我覺得做一天和尚撞一天鐘他今天還在部長的這個位置來司法法制委員會進行這樣的專題報告在他的心目中結果是這麼不重要的事把立法院司法法制委員會的議程不當成一回事上禮拜就出來了"},{"start":2505.612,"end":2519.399,"text":"但他還是毅然決然的決定要去屏東去花蓮一直到昨天晚上9點多才請好假他就是踩準了嘛踩準了我不來你能夠怎麼樣這樣的表現啊令人失望他的意思是反正我明天就離開了你們也拿我沒有辦法"},{"start":2533.826,"end":2535.651,"text":"當一個法務部部長可以這樣嗎這是全國檢調的表率嗎"},{"start":2551.628,"end":2577.064,"text":"市長我知道不關你的事啦您站在上面也很無奈但我覺得司法法制委員會該有的立場要有要不然立法院司法法制委員會根本不被法務部部長看在眼裡完全沒有把他當一回事完全沒有把他當一回事才會出現今天這樣荒謬的狀況我知道昭偉、鍾憲雄"},{"start":2591.494,"end":2606.497,"text":"我這邊跟委員報告事實上部長他也是尊重我們司法法制委員會所以在沒有獲得司法法制委員會的准許准假之前他事實上是準備要來的是一直到昨天晚上准假之後他才決定由我來代理出席以上補充"},{"start":2608.597,"end":2629.363,"text":"我非常同意剛剛黃委員所提的那剛剛又聽到次長您的回應真的讓我感受到"},{"start":2630.882,"end":2633.125,"text":"做一天和尚敲一天鐘"},{"start":2644.881,"end":2670.224,"text":"今天這個委員會其實早就在上禮拜議程都公布了他應該很清楚知道今天這個議題的重要性那麼再怎麼說他也應該要在他卸任的最後一次的委員會到立法院裡面來做專案報告然後跟我們這些委員們也許我們還要再感謝他這些年來在"},{"start":2671.945,"end":2697.974,"text":"這個立院這個的復復出可是看起來部長今天什麼都沒說然後就是這樣子我們召委夠寬容那夠包容他的臨時晚上9點多鐘還可以提出請假的事情如果我是召委我是不會同意的我真的很感慨這個部長"},{"start":2700.427,"end":2725.258,"text":"看起來他應該在一些事情上面他是知道分寸的知道要怎麼樣去拿捏可是沒想到在今天這麼重要的議題上面他卻缺席由次長來代為做專題報告那麼我希望次長回去能夠轉告部長他今天他這樣子的一個作為我們會留下記錄那麼在這邊也這個要請這個召委"},{"start":2730.421,"end":2733.247,"text":"這個之後我們可能看是做個附帶決議要譴責這個部長的這樣一個不尊重司法法制委員會的行為"},{"start":2742.02,"end":2766.128,"text":"主席我是不是補充一下事實上蔡部長據我所知她請假不是昨天晚上9點才臨時請假她事實上這個禮拜陸陸續續都有在進行請假的程序只是請假一直沒有獲得這個召委的准許是一直到昨天晚上才獲得的准許不是說昨天晚上臨時才決定不好意思我先停一下她陸陸續續在請假沒有獲得召委的准許那她不就今天應該來嗎"},{"start":2767.168,"end":2769.529,"text":"昨天晚上是仗著什麼?到9點多?如果有心來參加人造花蓮"},{"start":2796.451,"end":2811.637,"text":"我會預期的是他昨天晚上傍晚就搭火車回到台北了不用準備嗎?他昨天晚上到9點多才獲准請假他不就是擺明了沒有要來嗎?您是檢察官啊對於事實的認定我們在適用經驗法則跟論理法則的時候"},{"start":2826.803,"end":2851.261,"text":"我相信我剛剛的分析沒有錯一個有心沒有準價知道應該要來列席的部長昨天晚上不是應該傍晚就要搭火車回來台北了嗎他為什麼有恃無恐的被晚上9點多還在繼續請假就擺明的就沒有要來嘛我有說錯嗎"},{"start":2860.959,"end":2868.12,"text":"那王市長就請回答這部分我就再說明一下其實這幾天當然就是"},{"start":2869.969,"end":2891.651,"text":"蔡部長是有透過一些管道說希望能夠請假那我這邊當然是沒有同意阿因為有幾位委員已經很明確的說明說他們今天想要諮詢蔡部長那到昨天晚上大概9點多的時候因為我都不同意這件事情那到最後9點多的時候我得到最後一次的訊息是"},{"start":2892.659,"end":2916.878,"text":"他人已經在花蓮了就一定不會過來那我們沒辦法讓今天的這場會議不舉行其實我今天也可以做一個方式我就是不甩你然後今天早上開會介紹完畢之後我就直接喊休息等蔡部長來那其實我們今天就這會議就沒了就完蛋了我當然這部分"},{"start":2918.7,"end":2939.134,"text":"我也是覺得希望啦將來的新的內閣我就不要這樣子做啦就是你如果說真的有重要的要務或什麼你不來那我們都能夠體諒那一直到我到昨天晚上9點多我覺得我才知道說你不來然後你人已經在花臉那因為就是我所知道最後的狀況我是如實說明"},{"start":2942.434,"end":2966.064,"text":"這個狀況那剛剛那個次長說的也沒錯其實這幾天部長他確實有說希望請假不來但是我們立場其實很明白就是不可能嘛因為有委員已經說他有事情要請教蔡部長這四個狀況是這樣那中間我剛剛所論述的中間完全沒有任何一點虛假或灌水就剛剛整個論述是這樣從頭到尾發生的狀況是這樣那"},{"start":2970.168,"end":2997.134,"text":"請問一下還有沒有需要程序發言的好沒有齁好那其餘未介紹的列席人員我們都有列入公報的記錄好那本次議程我們邀請司法院秘書長、法務部長跟所率相關單位列席就總統行使特赦權後．該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件的處理進行專案報告．並備質詢"},{"start":3002.132,"end":3020.517,"text":"我主席在這邊先再提醒一件事情其實我一直認為說對於前總統是否進行赦免這是一件非常非常重大的事情對於我們國家的形象對於人民都非常的重要所以今天才會安排這個"},{"start":3022.566,"end":3047.722,"text":"我們希望說今天到場的機關能夠說明清楚然後對人民釋疑對人民釋疑之後總統如果要真的要進行赦免那這樣社會上面反彈聲量才會小因為赦免法案的精神也是要考量到赦免之後對於人民法感情的影響這個在赦免法裡面都有提到好 謝謝那現在進行報告發言時間5分鐘那我們先請司法院吳秘書長報告"},{"start":3062.442,"end":3087.86,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日專題總統行使特赦後．該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理就今日的專題進行報告"},{"start":3091.856,"end":3119.045,"text":"敬請主教分成兩項分成兩項第一項總統行使特赦後該案未沒收之不法所得的處理那麼一現行法沒收是獨立於行法及保安處分以外的法律效果而非使行法"},{"start":3120.373,"end":3147.438,"text":"那是基於下列三點理由第一點是刑法在104年12月30日修正公佈並自105年7月1日施行後莫說是獨立於刑法及保安處分以外的法律效果既有獨立性而非使刑法"},{"start":3149.457,"end":3176.241,"text":"所以將默說徵定為獨立議章在第5章之一以符合規範的意旨那麼該專章中既未規定犯罪過程要件亦無涉及刑法的創設或擴張至無罪行法定原則的適用以及適用行為實法的必要性"},{"start":3177.469,"end":3203.882,"text":"已徹底剝奪犯罪所得那麼第二點現法法庭111年宪判制第18號判決理由內以沒收新制的立法目的是回復合法財產秩序並非剝奪不法行為前犯罪行為人或非善意第三人的固有財產"},{"start":3205.718,"end":3234.429,"text":"從而不計刑法的本質．所以立法者修正沒收規定．並非出於刑法的目的．以刑法是處罰犯罪行為的人．矯正犯罪行為．並遏止再犯的嚴厲處意顯有不同。第三點現法法庭113年憲判制第一號判決理由列以"},{"start":3235.677,"end":3262.076,"text":"犯罪所得之產生．須基於違法行為．然．無論該違法行為是否終止．何時終止．亦不論行為人是否構成犯罪．至不法利得所得產生之時期．不法財產秩序已然形成．且行為人支配該不法利得的狀態．"},{"start":3263.806,"end":3287.98,"text":"仍繼續存在至該犯罪所得被剝奪時為止應該不法財產自棄．依新法施行或仍繼續存在．所以行法第二條第二項規定．屬不真正數集既往的法規範．並未違反法律不數集既往原則"},{"start":3293.004,"end":3318.787,"text":"所以現行法關於沒收的性質就如上所述那麼又依據赦免法第五條之一前段的規定因有罪判決確定所生之既成效果不因特赦而受影響這個也有這方面的規定那麼至於"},{"start":3320.683,"end":3339.858,"text":"總統行使特赦後．該案未沒收之不法所得的處理因為宿舍個案執行檢察官的職權本院一意尊重第二項是總統行使特赦後．停審未定讞案件之處理"},{"start":3342.052,"end":3362.911,"text":"未定讞案件是否停審．是否繼續審判．原則上是屬於審判核心素項．既以審判獨立．由個案成審．法官本已全責判斷以上報告敬請指教謝謝接下來我們請法務部黃次長報告"},{"start":3370.801,"end":3386.464,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家好今天封邀代表本部就本證案報告進行報告並備質詢那一項報告進行指教第一有關總統行使特赦的依據總統是依據這個赦免法還有這個憲法的規定行使他的大赦特赦檢刑復寫之權那總統如果予以發動其"},{"start":3398.857,"end":3426.049,"text":"行使特赦權得依赦免法第6條規定發交研議至於是否發交仍取決於總統的裁量有關特赦的程序的部分特赦是由這個總統命令行政院另轉本部為特赦的研議然後本部研議後再舉再列舉相關的意見交由總統那至於總統是否行使特赦權由總統來決定"},{"start":3431.636,"end":3461.022,"text":"我國赦免法有關於這個特赦的對象是以這個依照赦免法第3條的規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者免除其刑之執行其情節特殊者得以其刑之宣告為無效所以呢按照赦免法的規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者原則上是要免除刑之執行在情形特殊的時候才可以比照特赦他的罪行會宣告無效"},{"start":3463.7,"end":3490.963,"text":"有關於這個總統行使特赦之後關於犯罪所得的這個處理的部分如同剛剛司法院報告沒收並非是刑罰他不是在特赦的範圍所以呢如果行使特赦之後呢他的效力當然不及於沒收另外有關於報告所提到的這個總統行使特赦之後關於停審案件的處理的部分"},{"start":3492.625,"end":3514.871,"text":"因為停審案件案件尚未判決確定沒有赦免法第三條有關特色的適用因為赦免法特色的規定本不是認為他是以這個受罪行宣告確定判決為前提所以停審的案件並沒有赦免法有關特色的適用的餘地至於停審的案件"},{"start":3516.087,"end":3536.291,"text":"因為是屬於未確定的案件應由審判機關來認定它的原因事實是否消滅然後再依照刑事訴訟規定決定是否繼續審判那至於是否決定繼續審判這是法院的職權本部尊重結語的部分特赦是憲法賦予總統專屬的職權停審中的個案應非行使特赦權所給及的範圍"},{"start":3544.713,"end":3552.166,"text":"具體個案中如果由未沒收的犯罪所得也不會受到特赦的效力所影響以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3557.901,"end":3575.783,"text":"好 謝謝黃次長那現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3591.352,"end":3595.717,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是麻煩有請司法院秘書長以及法務部常務次長黃次長請秘書長、次長"},{"start":3600.354,"end":3625.117,"text":"委員好秘書長好、次長好首先請教次長我相信法務部對於整個赦免制度在比較法上面有相當程度的了解因為畢竟法務部也派檢察官去國外研究了赦免制度回來洋洋灑灑也寫了一個比較大的報告"},{"start":3626.218,"end":3637.499,"text":"我在社民制度的這件事情上我真的比較關切的是我們的總統依照憲法依照憲法的規定是依法行使大赦特赦的權利"},{"start":3639.431,"end":3667.35,"text":"因此就有關於赦免的制度是有法律保留原則的適用來請教次長我的理解有沒有錯沒有錯是嗎因此呢當我們在看各國赦免制度的時候他們希望這一個制度依法來行使的時候能夠有一個客觀的標準那這個客觀的標準包括了說總統在做這個決定以前針對什麼樣的標準"},{"start":3669.711,"end":3690.106,"text":"什麼樣子的類型能夠有一個具有可問責性跟透明性這個是法務部的檢察官去國外研究回來的研究報告我看了以後非常的佩服我也認同這樣子的制度建議方向但我們現在就具體的問題來講"},{"start":3691.807,"end":3698.434,"text":"法務部針對有關於赦免制度因為目前赦免法第6條的規定是可以交由法務部來研議"},{"start":3703.513,"end":3721.303,"text":"那法務部針對整個赦免制度在什麼情況之下適合來行使這個大赦或特赦參佐你們的檢察官去國外研究回來的制度有沒有建立一些客觀的基準以及程序請教次長"},{"start":3722.553,"end":3723.714,"text":"這些研究有沒有公開?"},{"start":3738.502,"end":3764.933,"text":"好 那個是不是會後請你們把你們參酌各國的立法力所做的研究可以送交司法法制委員會 可以嗎好 沒問題好 第二個問題是說針對在媒體上面傳的會聲會語說蔡英文總統考慮要特赦陳水扁前總統我基本上的立場是對於這一種道派的"},{"start":3766.557,"end":3786.452,"text":"不曉得透過什麼莫名其妙的管道放消息給媒體拔草側風向這種處理方式我是岐岐以為不然這是一個嚴肅的憲政問題這也是一個重要的制度而這個制度的適用我們應該具有一定客觀的基準"},{"start":3787.293,"end":3804.592,"text":"好那但我現在比較具體的問題是說到目前為止法務部有沒有接到任何的指示要針對這件事情依照社民法第6條的規定來進行研議顧問報告因為社民法第6條規定他是總統得名或"},{"start":3804.972,"end":3807.513,"text":"第二部分就有關於今天在司法院的報告提出了有關於刑事訴訟法第294條救審能力的問題"},{"start":3832.898,"end":3850.891,"text":"那依照目前刑事訴訟法294條救審能力的規定請教一下秘書長目前我們在訴訟係數當中的刑事案件因為這樣停職審判的案件有幾件?就是是那個陳前總統的全國只有一件嗎?"},{"start":3851.963,"end":3868.112,"text":"就是陳前總統的對啊 我了解我 我說全國的刑事訴訟是用刑事訴訟法294條的規定停止審判的目前的刑事訴訟 係數當中的刑事訴訟是用這條規定的 有幾件前提被告啦對對對對對"},{"start":3871.12,"end":3892.993,"text":"我們刑事廳目前就這一步沒有同仁沒有關係會後事事拜託秘書長請刑事廳的同仁把我們目前刑事訴訟法294條到底適用的有幾件可以提交給司法法制委員會我們作為接下來制度研議的參考因為我覺得我們在討論制度的時候就要認真的討論清楚"},{"start":3894.554,"end":3919.266,"text":"法律制度我們希望它具有什麼?客觀的普遍適用性可預測性、可問責性、透明性兩位都是法律人我想我講的這些原則兩位應該都贊同吧是好請秘書長先回座那我接下來請教一下次長我看到一個案子我很憤怒我們的前立法院的秘書長貪污了3100萬"},{"start":3923.771,"end":3948.582,"text":"兩個貪污罪被判刑並執行刑13年8個月13年8個月2019年7月19號入監服刑結果在5月14號的時候他已經假釋出獄了判了應定執行刑13年8個月結果我算到他假釋出獄為止實際上只關4年10個月"},{"start":3951.738,"end":3979.605,"text":"法務部你們假釋的權利是怎麼行使的我在2016到2020年我那時候在立法院的時候我就對於黑箱的假釋非常的痛恨經過了檢警的犯罪偵查三期三審判決確定了以後有超過一半以上的刑期要不要執行掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":3980.609,"end":4006.176,"text":"那個時候針對很多莫名其妙的假釋案件我提出了質詢是不是背後有什麼政治力操作導致了權貴司法的出現結果今天又再看到這樣的案子我今天本來請教蔡京祥部長因為幾年前就是他在備詢台上面跟我承諾"},{"start":4007.426,"end":4030.674,"text":"假釋制度．法務部一定會徹底的改革徹底改革完．出現這樣的結果 次長你滿不滿意共委員報告他假釋他有一定的外部法規規定跟內部的一個流程的程序本部相關的假釋修正這個水利的過程他一定要依法來行政依法來處理至於個案上每個個案我先講"},{"start":4033.14,"end":4056.785,"text":"假釋的權利現在完全掌握在行政部門手上我相信次長很清楚啦包括很多刑法重量級的學者對這個事情都提出批判嘛這麼重要的權利全部交給行政機關他反映出來的是什麼是一個刑事司法的政策我現在就要請教一下法務部"},{"start":4058.069,"end":4074.279,"text":"你們在行使假釋權利的時候你行使司法的政策到底是什麼貪污犯應定執行刑13年8個月你們關了4年10個月就放出來跟大家解釋一下嘛這個權利是怎麼行使的"},{"start":4075.485,"end":4102.122,"text":"各位報告那假釋制度要不要存在這是一個行事政策上有很大問題啦齁那至於說假釋的這個控管那不完全是但形式上在行政機關的決定沒有做但是我們假釋本身他有一個假釋委員會外部委員他來做一個假釋的這個決定倒不是完全法務部他可以去掌握假釋或不假釋不過老實講啦齁你就是說次長你用這種空洞的言語齁可能"},{"start":4104.043,"end":4113.291,"text":"我不要說你要糊弄人啦真的實際上面知道狀況的就是什麼要不要假設這件事情有很大的權力掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":4114.161,"end":4139.434,"text":"那因為今天您是文官不是政務官你也沒有辦法為政策負責但我只希望利用這次的質詢清楚的表達一個看法貪污犯喔貪污犯貪了3100萬定執行刑13年8個月結果執行完畢以後最後只關4年10個月對於這種制度運作的結果無法接受"},{"start":4140.458,"end":4159.874,"text":"無法接受我相信不是只有我無法接受很多人民看在眼裡也沒有辦法接受我希望法務部針對這件事情不要再忙含下去了不要再忙含下去了痛定思痛要好好的思考怎麼樣避免這種離譜的狀況繼續出現我接下來要請教88調查報告"},{"start":4165.1,"end":4192.971,"text":"我那天跟吳宗憲召委去高檢署我們去考察的時候我終於有機會等到請教高檢署我說高檢署當初所做的行政調查報告內容不實這件事情我問了一年多包括蔡清祥部長在這個備詢台上面公開承諾過公開承諾過高檢署要回應"},{"start":4194.271,"end":4217.732,"text":"結果我到那一天禮拜一去考察以前我沒有等到高檢署的回應我終於有機會去考察的時候請教高檢署的檢察長還有負責處理的主任檢察官我說的沒有錯啊我錯了沒有錯當初高檢署說什麼說他們有徹底查明"},{"start":4219.132,"end":4247.321,"text":"問題是什麼現實上面的狀況現場就有人在招待高檢署當初的調查報告寫的是什麼現場沒有任何人沒有任何人提供服務我那時候看到高檢署這個調查報告我無法相信啊我無法相信檢察官跟高階警官到那個招待所是自己開燈自己開冷氣自己倒水自己服務自己"},{"start":4248.243,"end":4255.494,"text":"我當初開的高檢署的調查報告我覺得就有問題但我需要證據"},{"start":4257.366,"end":4284.533,"text":"我終於找到證據去訪問那個招待所的管家的時候那個管家清楚的講有招待啊我們現場三個人啊在那邊負責服務啊結果高檢署的內容卻不是這樣寫的我等到禮拜一等到禮拜一我去了我去了高檢署結果高檢署說啊當初有很多資訊他們不知道"},{"start":4285.894,"end":4302.089,"text":"接受訪談的檢警也沒有說實話這是哪門子徹底查明啊你們後來去跟警政署調資料 證明我所言不虛我要請教的是 這個是警政署在隱匿還是高檢署在放水"},{"start":4303.105,"end":4329.653,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上當天那個調查報告的檢察長跟主任檢察官也跟委員說明了事實上就這個在場我們業者三人的部分的確當時所掌握的證據沒有掌握到這三人所以調查報告沒有檢查先提一下對齁當時掌握到的證據沒有這三個人但相關的證據在警政署手上對不對是嘛因為這個個案他是不是在警政署你們拜託你們那天就直接回覆我你們後來還發"},{"start":4331.641,"end":4357.712,"text":"新聞稿後來發新聞稿說什麼後來發新聞稿說你們不是去警政署調了那一個簽到簿發現進出的人就有現場的業者我有沒有說錯對後來發新聞稿是這樣但是更為對嘛所以我就在問嘛警政署當初掌握這個資訊你們高檢署發的行政調查報告請次長回去看本署"},{"start":4359.042,"end":4376.514,"text":"高檢署是結合新北地檢署警政署我們聯合進行什麼行政調查行政調查完了以後如何出了這一份徹底查明的報告那事後就不是這樣嘛所以我剛請教你的事情是那當初"},{"start":4377.575,"end":4392.205,"text":"是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水這就是我的問題對我知道好你們這個補充的行政調查因為我要尊重後面委員的時間你們補充更正的行政調查報告什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":4394.306,"end":4407.866,"text":"呃 各位報告 現在 現在他 上 那天 呃那天他說要簽部長嘛對 他是 他當 自己有權可以 可以發布啦那什麼時候要發布我不能代他回答當天他是有跟 跟委員報告大概多久的時間"},{"start":4409.266,"end":4409.807,"text":"謝謝我們現在請莊惠雄委員發言"},{"start":4440.328,"end":4445.173,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院秘書長、法務部黃某信次長、委員長、還有次長"},{"start":4453.294,"end":4477.977,"text":"最近尤其是我們今天在討論整個特赦案這個總統行使特赦那這個部分我相信大家正反意見都會有但是總統特赦這應該是算總統專屬的特權這個憲法這樣的一個明定那我想中華民國過去一共幾次特赦"},{"start":4482.252,"end":4496.959,"text":"1937年國民政府臨生特赦西安事變的策劃者張學良1961年蔣中正前總統特赦蔡興犯下過失致死但曾從事嫡後工作立下戰功"},{"start":4499.04,"end":4513.89,"text":"1965年蔣中正特赦台大教授彭明敏1990年520前總統李登輝特赦美麗島事件受刑者林鴻軒、呂秀蓮、程菊、姚家文、黃信介、張俊宏、林奕雄、施敏德、許新良等人"},{"start":4527.939,"end":4529.681,"text":"公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權"},{"start":4550.027,"end":4561.274,"text":"7.2021年5.20特赦獵捕野生動物觸法的布農族原住民獵人王光祿8.2022年4月22日特赦國軍前少將參謀長韓玉平與他的侍從士張玉生兩人因漢光演習加菜金核銷餐費2880元被依《貪污治罪條例》分別判處4年6個月和1年的徒刑"},{"start":4576.303,"end":4595.996,"text":"我提這八個案例就是在講說從過去台灣特赦的歷史來看今天假如要特赦前總統那當然沒有問題總統的特權所以針對特赦的對象會發生疑慮那在本席看來就不是法律問題了"},{"start":4597.597,"end":4607.676,"text":"所有的會去執行的人、判刑有罪的人尤其是判刑確定的人才有這個特赦的問題嘛那都是一審、二審甚至於有的還有三審"},{"start":4609.025,"end":4631.151,"text":"那法律途徑已經窮盡了以後一二三審、審計制度設計完以後有再審的去再審有非常上訴的去非常上訴全部都走完了法律程序其實就已經結束了嘛那就是這個時候為什麼給總統這樣的一個特色的一個權利啊就是讓他去考量站在總統的高度"},{"start":4631.718,"end":4648.911,"text":"他如何去看待如何來彌平整個社會這樣的一個爭議所以啊幾乎都是政治判斷我在從第8屆第9屆第10屆進入到現在第10屆阿扁這個議題啊我從來都不避諱啊我就是停扁我都認為要特赦"},{"start":4654.707,"end":4673.253,"text":"正反意見誰不知道會有誰不知道社會上都有壓力跟衝擊大家都知道但就像我們阿扁講的政治案件就是政治解決政治案件確定了以後你如何去透過法律來討回公道所以我還是大方的承認我就是支持這個特赦從以現在來看的話"},{"start":4677.492,"end":4699.64,"text":"法律你確定的案件就已經結束我就會去尊重總統的一個他自己的一個判斷從過去我舉的例子來看那從來都不是法律問題那都是完全是政治的一個判斷以上那另外我要來就教我們這個可能就跟秘書長我給你回應一下我這樣說不知道對不對這個"},{"start":4706.779,"end":4734.685,"text":"我尊重委員的說法我講得不對,我的人是這樣嗎?我不對,你也要吐槽,沒插到啊法律見解本來就有人會不一樣啊這個地方就是論理嘛,你有你的理,那就社會公平嘛我總不會胡說八道說這個法律我故意去扭曲做解釋,這就不對了嘛我舉這個八個案例來跟你講就是所有的東西都是窮盡一切司法的一個途徑,到最後用政治去做判斷嘛"},{"start":4735.865,"end":4755.092,"text":"這個就叫做特赦啦!這個就叫做特赦啦!不然沒有說 吼!法律都規定那個地方 規定在那個地方啊 總統特別大這個是憲法規定的 給他這個總統專屬的特權只是說 社會上要如何去非難去做一個評價 那是另外一件事"},{"start":4756.243,"end":4783.034,"text":"秘書長請回我要請教次長的就是說次長我要請教你就是說這樣講起來就沉重了這位期裡面可能就是最後一次的一個質詢那我要在這個地方做一個提醒就是說三年前發生的那個太魯閣出軌的一個事件那上個禮拜母親節的前夕在隧道裡面又發現了遺害那三年前的事故在305還在事故的地點發現遺害這個民眾"},{"start":4786.363,"end":4808.798,"text":"這我們從媒體上在看到我們也都會覺得說現場在採證的時候那當然一定是不夠仔細民眾第一個想法一定是如此我相信法務部你也不好意思去做任何的一個辯解因為就在更久之前你看那個2018所發生的普悠瑪事件的車廂竟然在5年後就是去年的9月也去發現了遺害跟遺留物"},{"start":4811.459,"end":4834.115,"text":"這個我們可以理解整個搜救的一個現場裡面難度是很高誰也不願意發生這種事我相信我們檢警人員他們也不管從檢察官或者辨識人員甚至搜救小組每一個人到了現場都是努力再去協助現場的一個清理可是市長我要講的就是可是畢竟受害者的家屬我們如果站在他們的角度去看的話"},{"start":4838.794,"end":4843.739,"text":"這個他們會想說我已經過了這麼多年人也都圓滿、錄斂、安葬就算DNA比對找到遺害現在怎麼處理都不對啊那還要家屬拿著放到"},{"start":4857.695,"end":4886.142,"text":"納古塔這個事實不僅僅是一種忌諱對這種往生者跟家屬的一個不尊重尤其是讓他們再去想起這種傷心的一個往事所以我要請教次長就是說有沒有針對類似的事情這種事情我們去做內部的一個檢討比如說如何再加速恢復現場跟整個完整的一個搜救的一個清理取得一個比較好的平衡我們就不希望這種事情"},{"start":4887.022,"end":4887.982,"text":"發生這種事對家屬也好對我們國家也好當然是一個不好的事情"},{"start":4904.208,"end":4923.94,"text":"我們本部也自認為該檢討就是應該要檢討這涉及到相驗發生的時候檢察官的相驗工作跟相關的目的主管機關行政機關的行政分工的問題事後這個案子發生之後我們的確在個案上我們也做檢討通案上我們也修正了我們一個重大相驗案件的一個內部的一個要點"},{"start":4924.6,"end":4951.333,"text":"我們把要點做修正之後我們訂了一定的SOB流程要求我們檢察官如何的在重大案件發生之後相關案件發生之後如何跟行政機關如何對接如何的協調事後如何的交接交接這相關的章政務處理完善之後才可以結束這個個案這要點我們在去年就修了做一個特定的修了社長這不要開玩笑了因為病人現在醫院很怕出錯"},{"start":4952.569,"end":4975.641,"text":"現在現在我們譬如開始一直搞喔,哪一個流程?黃謀信,好來,不然也簡單要問一下,生日幾號?生日當時?搞一下。譬如說檢察官也是一樣,監事人員也是一樣啊,你們把它定下來以後,憑經驗是好事啦,但有時候現場凌亂,甚至於在緊急狀況的時候,每一個人所謂的重不重要判斷會不一樣啊。"},{"start":4977.315,"end":4987.493,"text":"你都覺得SOP起來,就等於用高的一樣,好來,第一人,法務部你們早期開會過了,應該做什麼?高起來。第二行,我們今天被欠什麼?高起來。"},{"start":4988.362,"end":5001.492,"text":"慢慢再去滾動次做檢討也許你們在亂的時候會發現說哪一個環節我們必須要去注意或者在討論的時候應該如何再去做精進我都不希望像這種事情你也不知道要怎麼處理你現在弄一個手指的骨頭你說我發還給家屬當然要還給家屬他怎麼辦"},{"start":5011.189,"end":5017.352,"text":"要站在樓上?站在樓上?不然就開始再響響響響響那不是要在鈴鼓塔都要放進去嗎?在鈴鼓塔呢?處長那樣要開錢是不是?一般民眾你說叫他去就我骨頭紅的香氣都要放進去不可能嘛不然你也要叫一個法師來傳一個聖禮當然那更怪自己的親人那個不是什麼壞事只是也沒有必要在多年後增加這樣的一個困擾嘛"},{"start":5038.32,"end":5066.629,"text":"花錢又困擾最主要是民眾也傷心那我們在行政部門的部分我們這種事情沒有辦法完全預測以不會發生嘛什麼事要發生不知道嘛那總是整個流程把它確定下來這個讓民眾會覺得說政府對我來講的話比較溫暖政府對我來講的話他的行政部門在工作是很細緻的啦這個我要求改進好不好我們再去精進啦"},{"start":5067.429,"end":5067.549,"text":"羅志強委員發言"},{"start":5099.349,"end":5123.785,"text":"有請秘書長和次長請秘書長、次長委員好關於特赦沉水扁我有幾個問題想要請教一下因為民進黨一直強調政治案件政治解決所以我想請問我們的次長你覺得沉水扁案是政治案件還是司法案件"},{"start":5124.884,"end":5150.618,"text":"報告委員特赦的權利憲法規定是專屬於總統那我們對這個總統的職權我們沒有辦法做過多的評論秘書長覺得呢也是尊重總統的職權那我好奇一件事情如果照民進黨的邏輯是政治案件的話我想請教一下目前陳水扁總統被判決定驗的案件有幾件"},{"start":5152.45,"end":5163.804,"text":"公園報告目前定讞的部分是事件事件嘛裡面先聯到的一些其他的一些這個被判決確定的有哪些人除了陳隨便以外"},{"start":5165.782,"end":5168.324,"text":"請問那些確定的是不是既然是政治案件是不是一併特赦"},{"start":5189.94,"end":5190.501,"text":"所以今天我要講的第一件事情"},{"start":5213.137,"end":5239.323,"text":"全國民眾在關注的是你的特色範圍到底是陳水扁一個人還是陳水扁這個貪污的集團這個我覺得今天我們的當然蔡部長今天沒來我覺得今天民進黨也好我覺得蔡英文總統也好要交代清楚第二個民眾關心的問題我想請教一下犯罪所得怎麼處理"},{"start":5241.633,"end":5267.06,"text":"如果是特赦陳水扁的話各位報告那剛剛司法院跟本部的報告都有說到特赦的部分他是免除他的刑的執行或者是罪行先告無效前提都是刑但犯罪所得的部分按照我們修法之後他並不是組刑也不是重刑他是一個特殊的一個處分我直接問具體的不會被這個特赦的效力所及我直接問具體的啦"},{"start":5267.952,"end":5293.884,"text":"目前針對二次經改元大病復華案陳水扁未繳個人罰金多少錢?呃 各位報告陳千東董行的部分確定的部分都執行完畢我講的是未繳罰金罰金的部分也執行完畢了他總共這四個案子的罰金行的部分是2.5億都執行完畢了執行完畢啊對那海外有多少的那個錢被凍結?"},{"start":5296.281,"end":5316.652,"text":"現在國內外的這個凍結的資產大概他有一些是不凍產他要沒有辦法大概多少嗎我連這都沒掌握吧大概7億元左右7億元左右那這7億元歸屬誰因為確定部分已經執行完畢了但他有一部分還是在審理當中對所以要等判決的結果"},{"start":5319.149,"end":5323.591,"text":"一個是罰金 一個是不罰所得 不罰所得怎麼處理四個判決確定的不罰所得怎麼處理"},{"start":5329.229,"end":5330.049,"text":"目前海外凍結的這些財產跟罰金"},{"start":5351.138,"end":5353.141,"text":"以目前來說的話就是我們未判決定業有哪些案件"},{"start":5368.746,"end":5387.789,"text":"他未判決定讞的部分還有也是4個案子事件嘛對一個是卸任總統侵占公文書案嘛對不對對停審的時間是什麼時候什麼時候開始停審102年的12月20號停審的102年就102年12月停審嘛對不對到現在幾年了13年了嘛11年了11年11年對不對我想請問當時停審原因是什麼"},{"start":5398.277,"end":5399.198,"text":"那我想請教我們的兩位"},{"start":5424.315,"end":5449.329,"text":"你知道陳水扁最近做了一件大家覺得非常為他開心的事是什麼事你知道嗎因為陳水扁還可以擔任陳信宇的訴訟代理人然後替他牙醫診所醫療糾紛辯護還能夠自己沒有辦法出庭自己的官司身體不好倒是女兒的官司她身體很好訴訟代理人又可以出庭"},{"start":5451.243,"end":5475.238,"text":"我現在問的是今天請問我剛剛講不只是我們剛剛講的這個還有什麼這個我們講青藏公文書的已經停審了11年都以身體健康因素來停審還有包括陳敏勳買官延伸的洗錢案請問是什麼時候停審的?104年5月13號對啊然後國務紀要費教授委政案什麼時候停審的?103年1月28號"},{"start":5478.991,"end":5496.064,"text":"然後二次經改國泰經病釋華銀案又是什麼時候停審的?104年8月31號那我想請教一下陳水扁都被特赦了那這些案子什麼時候審啊?他身體健康的狀況有到連出庭都不行嗎?出庭都不行嗎?請問那個停審到底是的標準是怎麼認定?誰來判斷?秘書長"},{"start":5510.203,"end":5536.642,"text":"這個齁是原則上齁這個是屬於這個審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁是由這個個案成審法官本於前者來判斷的都很一致阿全部都停審阿這四個案子法官都一樣嗎都一樣嗎這個齁那應該這個有的在高院有的在低院阿我要講一件事阿"},{"start":5538.154,"end":5564.163,"text":"今天民眾說真的對於陳水扁要不要特赦你剛剛講總統職權已經特赦完的東西如果陳水扁真的要特赦沒關係民進黨有一個特赦貪污總統的歷史紀錄像剛剛莊育雄委員講八項紀錄前面絕大多數不是良心犯就是政治犯如果民進黨要創一個特赦貪污總統的紀錄那也由得民進黨"},{"start":5565.39,"end":5593.103,"text":"可是我就要問那請問後面的官司還要不要判啊?後面的官司蔡英文可以特赦嗎?可以嗎?市長本部報告也寫得很清楚特赦現已判決確定當然啦他沒辦法特赦啊對等到判決確定也輪不到他特赦啊那我想問是什麼分期付款嗎?蔡英文特赦完之後剩下沒被判的案件等到愛情人上任以後又被判罪了還是不是要再特赦一次?"},{"start":5594.178,"end":5621.448,"text":"要特赦一次嗎?四個案子,四次分別判,就特赦四次的意思,是這個概念嗎?所以回頭我就要說,還有一件事我想請教兩位你知道高雄曾經發生監獄暴動嗎?挾持典獄長的事情,記不記得?記得嘛,大寮嘛,對不對?他們訴求,有一個訴求你不會忘記吧,跟陳水扁有關六項訴求,有一個訴求跟陳水扁有關,哪一項訴求?"},{"start":5624.229,"end":5650.683,"text":"哪一項訴求?我告訴你這個市長要掌握清楚一點因為你今天來做專案報告跟陳水扁有關的不只是審判案件啦還有包括保外就醫啦當時那些六個我們的那個受刑人啊他們說他們要暴動的原因之一就是無法忍受陳水扁怎麼樣為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫"},{"start":5652.799,"end":5680.811,"text":"請問監所有沒有比陳水扁健康更嚴重的有沒有存在有沒有有沒有有沒有保外就醫我們現在每年就將近有三四百個保外就醫的保外就醫是什麼樣的狀況當時啦我知道你們後面改了一堆規定啦當時在保外就醫是指在監所病重到不能再監所治療啦對他是不能醫治或無法醫治對啊不能醫治或無法醫治啊"},{"start":5681.991,"end":5702.472,"text":"阿如果感冒發燒可不可以保外就醫可不可以他具體的是不是用保外醫治的規定那當然他當然不可以連這個你都答不出來我還沒講完他有一定的程序要去審可不可以嘛委員你是講感冒嗎感冒發燒可以嗎通常合理第三人來看這個當然是專委不行阿對啊"},{"start":5704.329,"end":5712.395,"text":"那今天都已經到可以到訴訟代理人可以上直播可以趴趴走你覺得還有病重到不能夠在監所內為醫治之行為嗎?有嗎?從正常客觀第三人來看你剛剛講的 有嗎?沒有啦 我幫你回答 我知道你不方便啦"},{"start":5722.677,"end":5747.987,"text":"今天在陳水扁身上其實說真的大家對特赦的問題談論的還不只是總統職權的特赦總統還有憲法依據特赦他保衛就醫的制度被陳水扁已經踐踏到連高雄都為他發生監獄暴動了啦然後這個所謂停審也是為陳水扁量身停審了十幾年11年10年那我就只問一件事情我也請司法院"},{"start":5749.865,"end":5778.238,"text":"當然你不能干預個案可是我要請所有法官也要接受社會公平陳雪扁這個現在狀況停審原因到底還存在嗎所有的人跟陳雪扁一樣能夠接受停審的待遇然後從此之後停審300年逍遙法外嗎如果現在這狀況可以停審他的停審叫無限期你相不相信現在就可以停審的話繼續停審的話那台灣我們的司法公正在哪裡特赦還有憲法總統的依據"},{"start":5779.741,"end":5783.204,"text":"這才是今天整個司法被踐踏的核心原因我們休息一分鐘"},{"start":5811.962,"end":5812.203,"text":"主席"},{"start":5840.137,"end":5840.177,"text":"主席"},{"start":5882.207,"end":5883.488,"text":"現在開始開會我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":5902.927,"end":5929.864,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們那個黃長赤請次長我也好好 次長早早好 次長近期因為這個媒體的報導那我們總統在卸任前可能要行使特赦我相信這個早上到現在也許多委員都在關心那這個特赦相關這個討論又"},{"start":5932.273,"end":5961.189,"text":"再度成為我們社會矚目的一個焦點那今天的這一場專報來就我們總統行使特赦相關的法律問題來進行這個討論我們憲法第40條規定總統行使這個大赦特赦減刑及賦權的這個權利換言之就是說以上都是憲法所賦予總統的權利行使與否交由總統他本人來決定之那我想不管是司法院、法務部或是在座的各位"},{"start":5961.889,"end":5976.917,"text":"那都沒有辦法去干涉到總統的這個職權並且這個赦免是總統所採取的政治行為是一種對司法權的一個介入對司法的威望以及權力分立的制度都有相當程度的影響"},{"start":5977.657,"end":5992.87,"text":"那總統應該審慎考慮並以宏觀的這個視角來做出最適當的安排在此我想請教就是現在有對於特赦理由的討論但是從過去的這個案例來看特赦是不是也沒有"},{"start":5994.07,"end":6017.763,"text":"對條件或原因來進行設限我想請市長回覆一下各位報告我們現在有關特赦的規定當然如同委員PPT上所講的是憲法上規定由總統來行使那具體的法律規範的部分就是赦免法的相關規範赦免法有做一些要件上的規定除此之外有關赦免的部分尤其特赦的部分就沒有其他的規範"},{"start":6018.763,"end":6034.932,"text":"好那在就我們法務部所提出的這個書面報告當中有提到說特赦的程序這個赦免法第6條第一項規定總統的命令行政院轉令這個主管部也就是我們法務部"},{"start":6036.112,"end":6063.328,"text":"為這個大赦特赦減刑復權之研議那也就是說請法務部對於特赦進行研議並離去處理建議請這個行政院再陳情給總統那我想請問剛剛政治也大概有回覆那可能總統那邊並沒有明確的指示那不管是被動或主動我們近期內我們法務部這個部內是不是有進行相關的這個評估的動作"},{"start":6065.593,"end":6091.936,"text":"各位委員報告那我再次的強調就是說法務部到目前為止沒有收到行政院或來自於總統的令轉的相關特赦的研議這是第一部分第二部分法務部當然就社會相關的爭議事實或在意的事件法務部所屬的幕僚當然會做相關的研議所以有關於特赦最近的一些各方的意見法務部當然會做一些法律上的研議或者是個案上做一些處理當然會"},{"start":6092.597,"end":6108.894,"text":"好那未來我們有沒有可能會提供給總統什麼方向的一個這個建議各位委員報告我們按照社民法的規定他必須要總統他得要教我們來研議發動權在於總統總統沒有如果沒有發動總統發動權的話我們不會沒有法務部本身沒有發動的可能性"},{"start":6114.462,"end":6142.924,"text":"好 那就我們法務部先前的這個回應來看還沒有得到來自府院的明確消息剛剛那個市長你也很明確的講那但有關這個特赦的業務應該有在處理包括考慮到相關的配套等等那假設假設今天總統決定這個行使特赦權了那後續我們法務部辦理的這個程序相關的這個程序需要多久的時間來完成"},{"start":6144.454,"end":6172.554,"text":"各位委員報告 看它特赦的範圍 如果特赦 特赦有兩種 一個是刑的免除 另外一個罪行宣告無效 看它是特赦哪一種那如果我們接到特赦的特赦令的話 按照我們赦免法第7條的規定 法務部必須要發交證明給受赦免者 那速度會很快因為就法務部來講 我們說特赦令 我們只發交一個特赦證明而已所以相關的程序 特赦令來講 它會很快的合法"},{"start":6174.478,"end":6192.638,"text":"就這個部分我們看到這個赦免法第三條規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者他免除其刑之執行其勤解特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效尤其後段有寫到"},{"start":6193.619,"end":6211.585,"text":"情節特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效那我還是請教次長就是說後段所產生的這個效果是否大於前段的部分那是不是這個到底是免刑不免罪還是免刑又免罪"},{"start":6212.205,"end":6239.855,"text":"各位報告特赦大概如同我剛才報告有兩種如果免除刑至執行的話他的罪子還存在的如果他事後再犯罪的話因為刑還存在他有可能會構成累犯那如果罪行都免的話他就等於一筆勾銷他後面如果說再犯罪罪行無效了嘛後面再犯罪他就沒有累犯的問題所以他的法律效果是不一樣的可以這樣子理解沒有錯通俗的理解可以來理解就是說第三條後段的罪行都免除"},{"start":6240.655,"end":6263.688,"text":"無效的話,在法律上的效果會大於前項的刑事執行的免促好,那所以應該還是要看總統如何來裁決才能夠決定最後達到的效果那另外,由於這次的可能被特赦對象身份比較特殊也就是我們之前的元首那近期也有許多包括美國、韓國等"},{"start":6265.249,"end":6286.238,"text":"過去特赦元首的經驗來加入討論即便各國對於特赦的法規有所差異政治體制也不盡相同但是對於特赦元首的這件事情同樣是高度的政治性爭議性的議題那我們法務部是否也有參酌其他國家的案例來研擬更嚴謹的相關配套"},{"start":6289.666,"end":6299.937,"text":"法務部就這個特赦部分當然我剛有提到包括美國、日本跟德國的特赦制度法務部他都有相關的收集跟研議我們也當然會參酌國外有關特赦的經驗來研議適合於本國的相關的特赦制度"},{"start":6308.689,"end":6335.2,"text":"所以我想還是對於特赦與否我們還是尊重總統的職權不管是對於政治的這個衝擊還是對於司法的影響都是總統在決策過程中必須要去承擔的責任那相關的程序及配套需要我們法務部這邊協助辦理的部分也期待能夠透過這次的專報以及媒體朋友的這些報導讓社會大眾更加的清楚了解特赦的範圍跟這個效力能夠來減少這個誤解降低對立對於"},{"start":6338.041,"end":6350.478,"text":"這一次的這個議題本身來講這個理性的討論才有那個功效所以請我們法務部對這個部分應該去審慎評估那再來我想請教就是這個外衣間再傳這個脫逃的事件那在"},{"start":6354.868,"end":6367.493,"text":"這前兩天傳出這個外衣間預期未歸涉及脫逃的這個案子是台南這個明德外衣間的方信受刑人那在11月13日放假期間沒有依規定"},{"start":6368.905,"end":6394.613,"text":"到這個派出所報導但是在原定的這個應該返回的外遺間時間沒有正常的回間的情況幸好是在這個昨天警方已經找到這一位受刑人那我想請教就是目前這個專案小組對於本案所掌握的這個狀況以及處理的情形為什麼這一位受刑人會發生預期未歸的情況"},{"start":6396.249,"end":6414.166,"text":"顧問報告他理論上是這個13號的一點他就應該要返回這個外遺監但後來他遇時未歸嘛那後來本部有掌握他相關的行蹤啦外遺有掌握他相關的行蹤那目前他已經這個逮捕了已經在入監服刑當中"},{"start":6415.794,"end":6431.002,"text":"好那我想請教一下這一次發現他預期未歸從通報到警方開始找人到找到人這個整個過程大概是多久的時間?我們按照規定如果外遺間預期反加未歸的話30分鐘之內我們建議必須要通報"},{"start":6434.864,"end":6436.225,"text":"進行相關的SOB流程都已經規範了"},{"start":6453.188,"end":6477.115,"text":"那目前為止我們還有沒有類似這個這個外衣間脫逃的受刑人還沒有逮捕到回歸的近十年來我們外衣間脫逃人數大概47人到目前為止在就剩下一位大概是花蓮那個外衣這強外衣間在111年脫逃的一個外衣間受刑人到目前為止還沒棄貨其他的都已經棄貨"},{"start":6478.798,"end":6506.35,"text":"那對於預期未歸的這些受刑人在不管是自首或是被逮捕歸案以後會受到什麼樣的懲處?我們都是會以這個脫逃罪來辦理嗎?刑責的部分他當然要負擔這個脫逃罪的偵辦沒有問題另外他原來刑的部分他因為外衣間他因為他脫逃了我們就會轉軌把他轉軌回復到我們普通的監獄繼續服刑另外他在外衣間裡面所受到的縮刑的待遇"},{"start":6506.65,"end":6513.881,"text":"也因為他脫逃會回復到他沒有縮行的狀態所以轉軌在叫縮行的回復那行政的部分當然要追究"},{"start":6515.27,"end":6543.587,"text":"那對於脫逃罪判刑確定的這個收容人所判的刑期若太輕只有幾個月是不是難以達到嚇阻或警惕的效果脫逃罪的部分在目前的刑責三年以下當然外界有些倡議覺得他刑責過低那我目前在修我們刑法上的脫逃罪我們的確是有要提高他刑責的部分把它提高來抑制這個脫逃人受刑人他可能產生脫逃的意念所以我們近幾年外醫監"},{"start":6544.988,"end":6564.481,"text":"這個已有這個數十件的脫逃案件那剛剛次長也有大概講了一下相信我們這個法務部對每個案應該都有進行過這個檢討那我再請教一下對於預期未歸的問題整體的改進方向我們有沒有比較完整的一個檢討方向"},{"start":6565.061,"end":6592.403,"text":"跟委員報告當然從制度面我們剛跟委員報告通報面跟委員報告另外防範面我們外醫監我們現在是試圖的引進我們AI的科技技術就是說讓外醫監是不是戴腳鐐手銬用電子反力的部分讓他反加探測的時候能讓外醫監的這個更能夠掌握這個受刑人所以從科技面從法律面從業務面我們進行來做些相關的檢討"},{"start":6594.617,"end":6608.959,"text":"所以我們外遇監視為了要讓受刑人能夠準備能夠這個銜接社會的一個制度不論是平時低度的這個管理或是反加探親的這個規定我想都是利益良善"},{"start":6609.56,"end":6623.996,"text":"那但相對的脫逃或是再犯的風險也比較高所以畢竟我們沒有辦法完全去掌握一個人的這個行動和想法但是希望這個法務部能夠落實檢討並持續的精進這個外議間的管理"},{"start":6627.58,"end":6650.016,"text":"那也請我們法務部在未來交接的這個過程提醒即將接任的團隊應該要多加注意也不要壞了設立外議間的這個美意也讓我們民眾能夠更加的信任那也讓這個制度可以持續更完善的一個推動的過程好以上謝謝委員好謝謝那我們下一位請謝榮介委員發言"},{"start":6670.855,"end":6675.456,"text":"主席我請秘書長及處長來麻煩秘書長、次長委員好委員好副主長我請教你這個單位比前總統停止審判的規定是什麼因為生病啦依照什麼規定"},{"start":6702.707,"end":6727.644,"text":"是刑事訴訟法就對了刑事訴訟法我現在心中要請教我跟你們說你們跟蔡英文就是民修戰鬥暗渡城牆你們在拚一個跟阿扁的特赦兼託罪的大陰謀我希望司法院不能做幫兇你們叫他們無責來我現在請教你"},{"start":6732.025,"end":6740.553,"text":"平時申報的期間,對所款的事項,是有繼續進行還是沒有繼續進行?沒有啦,這你的檢問勒?欸欸欸,主席啊,他是屬案員的秘書長勒?"},{"start":6754.196,"end":6755.957,"text":"停止審判期間追訴權持效是進行還是不進行啊?欸 主席"},{"start":6781.057,"end":6797.38,"text":"因為這種有時候要很精準要很精準各位專科的好朋友各位台灣的鄉親我剛剛講了蔡英文跟陳帥扁甚至包括秦德兄你們就是在進行這個大陰謀不是只有特赦而已耶今天如果只有特赦我們還勉強接受"},{"start":6808.629,"end":6809.909,"text":"你幫他脫罪你不知道嗎亂來捏停止審判期間就是我們其他的追溯期你的追溯權實效是有在進行還是沒有進行拜託你輸我贏的必輸中來輸中"},{"start":6840.438,"end":6851.289,"text":"追訴權時效會因為起訴跟停止審判而停止進行。那停止進行到一定期間之後,它的停止期間會消滅,會再繼續進行。達到這個追訴權時效80條的三分之一的話,會繼續進行它的時效。"},{"start":6857.114,"end":6879.118,"text":"所以追訴權的時效就會繼續進行嗎?他要停止審判期間超過刑法80條的三分之一那他從哪一年開始停止?你剛剛有說了秘書長你知不知道他講是開始停止審判?這個他現在有停止審判有四個案件這樣時間超過了嗎?秘書長現在現在的追訴權"},{"start":6887.327,"end":6914.154,"text":"是進行還是不進行?現在停止審判當然追訴前是停止的追訴前停止?對他是停止審判那超過時效沒有?這個是要司法院他個案再去計算但從形式上看起來目前是還沒有但個案上我不清楚因為個案是法官他要去判斷我不能夠帶法官去判斷這個追訴前是要計算停止試鏡了這稿子賣了齁這查庫了我等一下再問你齁"},{"start":6915.95,"end":6931.248,"text":"那陳水扁有疾病不能到庭喔他都可以幫女兒去出庭啊做主持人、朱祁鈴啊開節目啊、直播啊、笑VV啊然後他就不能到庭來出庭那這樣秘書長這是什麼原因"},{"start":6940.454,"end":6965.825,"text":"這個還是 原則上這個還是屬於審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁審判獨立有個案成審法官你認為合理嗎本於前者來判你認為合理嗎那因為這個由個案來個案歸個案不談個案嘛你認為這種狀況合理欸你該你不是口口聲聲都說被司法改革你認為合理嗎"},{"start":6966.724,"end":6984.811,"text":"因為基於審判獨立齁審判獨立啦是很獨立嘛已經獨立了好幾年了司法行政齁他這種狀態下不出庭你認為合理嗎?你個人認為合理嗎?這個是由個案的陳審、法官、委員牽扯來判斷的阿那你是認為這個法官是恐龍嗎?"},{"start":6990.54,"end":6991.281,"text":"我是很嚴肅來看待這種問題"},{"start":7015.667,"end":7044.32,"text":"我們要來也要看很多資料啊秘書長你每次我問你你都這樣你這樣給台灣人民對司法的改革失去信心我沒便宜因為司法行政有一定不意願我跟你講你們就是故意的啦你們就是故意的停止審判以後他現在已經定驗的案子特赦了然後停止審判到最後沒得審判"},{"start":7045.796,"end":7065.596,"text":"啊你大變成 欸 追訴期過啊 時高大 脫手不及切 你們實在有夠厲害捏啊 你在創這個抗逃 你動作台灣人都笑的就對了那我再請問你 他個人停止審判啊 那其他的人呢 他也沒有生病為什麼不能開庭"},{"start":7068.457,"end":7085.33,"text":"這個還是屬於審判?根據哪一條?法律哪一條?各案的審審法官本於全責會來判那你們司法院有沒有在下級管考?"},{"start":7088.509,"end":7110.604,"text":"有沒有管考嗎?有沒有管考業務啊?法官一般法官的案件如果超過三個月啊沒有進行啊,你們就開始管考了嗎?行政管考有沒有?有沒有啦!有嘛!那這個案子你們有沒有管考嗎?"},{"start":7112.386,"end":7140.82,"text":"那這個這個管考那就是說這個有一定分際啦有一定分際司法行政管考跟司法行政之間我們有一定的分際在啦分際在那當然那你有沒有對這個法官進行檢討啊那就回復到剛剛這個都是屬於審判核心事項你放了阿扁一個其他的共犯全部也都一起放走那不是放水沒什麼叫放水啦"},{"start":7143.872,"end":7148.576,"text":"現在不談那邊嘛 總統要特赦他嘛 難道總統是連其他人都特赦嗎你已經比總統的特赦權還大耶 你赦了好幾個 總統也才特赦一個"},{"start":7159.469,"end":7180.138,"text":"對不對啦這個就向委員說明你現在連總統都不必發布特赦令其他人都沒有罪了啦就向委員說明這個就就剛剛說明的就是說這個還是回憶到個案個案審判好啊好啊你個案你回去你老公叫個案啦喔秘書長我們這樣沒辦法對話了你先坐你先坐啦拜託啦以後你兩忙再來立法院說要司法改革啦真的啦你會漏氣啦"},{"start":7190.145,"end":7192.686,"text":"處長,檢察司跟我來處長你現在這個處長,案件不法的所得已經執行後了嗎?對,犯罪所得的部分已經執行,幾乎執行完畢啦市的案未確定的案件,這樣就表示現在考的錢,都是市的案未確定的案件,對不對?"},{"start":7220.251,"end":7245.761,"text":"對 原則上說這樣喔 補充怎麼會沒來喔 部長沒來 剛剛有跟委員會報告了我 我兩個月前我就在這裡問了喔你知不知道我有看轉播 你問他是不是有 有 有 有 有時候接受到指示阿對 我問說依照特赦法第六條 總統有管理請 行政委員要求 任務單位 來演議阿"},{"start":7250.728,"end":7259.854,"text":"我問他說,有去總統府做這個經濟嗎?他說沒有!我說二月份有沒有?他說沒有!一月份有沒有?他說有!有!有過了!選了的時候,這月十三選了的時候,有立委,好來!我現在又很心動,你是政府處長嘛!對!你要問你的良心,把台灣人民回答!我請教你齁!"},{"start":7279.571,"end":7284.076,"text":"因為這是密件啦,密件啦,他們都很愛用密件,不是你啦我請教你,法務部有收到總統府的諮問,說要延期特赦單位列席的案件的公文嗎?"},{"start":7296.991,"end":7320.924,"text":"跟委員報告整個法務部的公文基本上我都會看到我到目前為止沒有收到看到每一件公文你都能看得到原則上那除非特殊密件對特殊密件有特殊密件就我本身最初的我是沒有看到你可能沒有看到有可能你有可能沒有看到今天是113年5月15日我很慎重跟你為什麼我要跟你問這個問題因為我很有把握有啦"},{"start":7321.744,"end":7342.804,"text":"阿但是我要問你你個人如果你有看到你不能在這裡說沒有我沒有我百分之一千萬沒有看到你個人沒有看到但你有可能也看不到是不是這我就不知道沒有就是如果是密切就是你有沒有可能有公文但你都看不到當然有可能有公文我沒有看到當然有可能有可能當然有可能"},{"start":7343.74,"end":7364.1,"text":"為什麼會這樣你知道嗎?因為這是很機密啦一過分就處理了啦但我現在相信你的在立法院的公報將來會留下記錄啦沒問題沒問題但最近的案件現在有四件嘛停止審判對那這樣 它是什麼理由停止審判?"},{"start":7366.158,"end":7382.826,"text":"這是...他是按照...是司法院的業務啦他按照刑訴法294...所以說他有判斷嘛所以不能審判嘛那這樣他可以替員長出庭去判官司可以主持節目還可以邀請人家去訪問他不知道要不要邀請誰我是不知道啦他如果要邀請我去我怎麼可以來跟他說一句跟他共識一句讓他在場特赦"},{"start":7391.124,"end":7396.65,"text":"如果這樣,為什麼不能出庭?當然你會說這是法院的問題嘛,對不對?如果這樣法院的認定我現在要請教你,停止審判以後,要怎麼繼續可以再審判?"},{"start":7407.525,"end":7427.401,"text":"訴訟法298條規定他停止這個原因消滅的話他當然可以那當事人他可以申請法院來繼續審判他怎麼可以申請就對了298條就是審判的原因消失法院應該繼續審判對不對然後當事人亦得申請繼續審判請問有沒有這一條那我請問你檢察官是不是當事人"},{"start":7438.503,"end":7450.568,"text":"來檢察官他在訴訟法上他的確是當事人298條他是不是當事人看條文他是當事人的話檢察官他是當事人沒有我們主席在這裡喔298條這個當事人得申請繼續審判請問檢察官是不是當事人"},{"start":7459.871,"end":7477.448,"text":"呃 各位報告事實上齁 這個個案在審理當中檢察官公訴檢察官在個案上他的確有表示意見 呃 看這是不是原因他是不是當事人嘛對 他是 他一定有表示意見是不是因此他要免任法院審訟那既然檢察官是當事人 他可以申請法院繼續審判請問法務部"},{"start":7480.55,"end":7494.47,"text":"為何你們一直以來都不申請?跟委員報告 我剛有跟委員報告了我們在個案 我們公務檢察官有在個案上他有提醒法官是否要注意是否原因是已經消滅了是否 應該要注意喔 你沒有申請繼續審判喔"},{"start":7496.358,"end":7523.863,"text":"他有沒有提一個你沒有申請喔對跟委員報告他是不是提一個申請狀的形式我不清楚但個案上他的確有提醒法官要注意這件事你有申請沒有申請這很簡單的事情你你可以把本意刷明嗎有或是沒有跟委員報告我剛已經跟委員報告了有沒有申請這個形式我沒有把握因為他個案嘛但是在個案上我知道他有提醒法官要注意這一個是否原因已經消滅這個事情公訴法公訴檢察官他有做到這一點"},{"start":7524.423,"end":7548.314,"text":"那停止審判的這四個案件不法所得的都算有多少你知不知道因為他還沒有判決確定他沒有辦法去估他的不法所得啦因為他沒有判決確定但是我們起訴的時候沒有辦法估你為什麼給人家扣那麼多錢法官委員報告起訴的時候我們的二次金改的部分是4億4億那是國泰嘛對國泰並司法那買官的呢"},{"start":7555.733,"end":7571.203,"text":"陳允興買官的那罰還呢?就這個案件這四個案件啦四億那你為什麼扣他八億?因為他還有可能刑的部份他有可能罰還啊他可能不是罰還罰金他有可能罰金啊"},{"start":7572.133,"end":7573.294,"text":"陳水扁被赦免此奪公權有沒有一併赦?"},{"start":7602.621,"end":7623.88,"text":"磁頭公權是不是即移的話這要看赦免的範圍這是總統的特權那我現在很明確問你十七就要寫了因為我們赦免有兩種嘛他是刑之執行的赦免還是罪行都赦免罪行都赦免的話當然他的磁頭公權會被赦掉我知道嘛現在只赦刑但是刑有牽扯到磁頭公權嘛"},{"start":7624.36,"end":7626.321,"text":"他不會講指涉刑的部分他現在就是你們已經作業到這一次本次蔡英文總統對錢城總統的"},{"start":7641.207,"end":7660.019,"text":"特赦、刑、刺駝公權的部分有沒有作業?跟委員報告我剛才已經說了他如果指赦免刑的部分他刺駝公權的計算期間開始要從刑法37條第5項規定赦免後開始計算他的刺駝公權所以他原來缺陷半決有刺駝公權多久從那個時間點開始"},{"start":7661.48,"end":7685.413,"text":"所以赦免以後開始計算還是赦免以後連此都公權也沒有這很重要因為我要支持很多人要支持阿扁還在算阿下一任就要把賴清德幹掉阿所以我說看他赦免了這有兩種看總統如果有赦免是赦免哪一種如果現在因為你是業務單位嘛在你們手上作業的嘛沒中今天沒來就做不對阿嘛因為他知道阿"},{"start":7687.018,"end":7701.727,"text":"在赦免的範圍是要總統決定的如果有赦免的話所以現在如果要赦免他的矢頭公權你現在也可能不知道但17號可能會公佈以後 對不對這我沒有辦法預測沒有 就是這樣 我說可能性就這樣嗎"},{"start":7703.717,"end":7704.217,"text":"接下來我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":7731.108,"end":7752.087,"text":"主席 請秘書長、次長我請兩位分別回答先請秘書長再請次長對於蔡英文總統在卸任前最後一班車最後的兩天來特赦"},{"start":7757.369,"end":7759.329,"text":"請秘書長回答對教育有什麼影響?"},{"start":7779.165,"end":7808.002,"text":"這一部分是不是要特赦那如何特赦我們是尊重總統的職權這他的職權本席在請教你司法就是教化嘛對不對是這個社會公平正義社會秩序最後一道防線對不對請問一下秘書長對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響"},{"start":7809.434,"end":7831.92,"text":"那就是回復到這個還是尊重總統的職權啦現在本席沒有問你尊不尊重嘛你身為一個司法人嘛你是不是司法人是不是那我當然是司法人那你司法的良心請你回答對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響這個"},{"start":7841.797,"end":7858.644,"text":"因為秘書長你站在這個位置上你所代表的就是天平的兩端你就是代表國家的公器站在這裡所以本席請教一下對我們的教育有什麼影響"},{"start":7860.799,"end":7882.255,"text":"因為這兩件事是不是要這樣關聯就是有各有各的看法那個次長請回答特赦制度他當然會對現有判決的效率會產生影響但是他這個本來這個特赦這個特別制度存在的意義他一定會有影響但是他就有他存在的意義什麼樣的影響"},{"start":7884.016,"end":7885.898,"text":"所以對於貪污犯而且身為總統他本身是貪污犯對我們的教育影響多大?次長"},{"start":7914.67,"end":7942.077,"text":"所以本席在今天就請教第一個問題竟然吶代表我們司法天平兩端代表這個國家正義最後的防線連禮譽連詞都講不出來我們都司法已死吧真的司法已死啊你們連一個最基本的一個人格人性該講的話都不敢講"},{"start":7944.039,"end":7944.559,"text":"現在判刑20年確定"},{"start":7975.767,"end":8002.347,"text":"我們要朗讀一下給全國國人再回味一下龍潭購地3億元收賄案陳敏勳買官1000萬元收賄案海角7億洗錢案這海角7億哪裡來的還是搞不清楚二次經改收元大2億貪污案合併執行20年判決定讞保外就醫你特赦好再過來"},{"start":8005.861,"end":8031.041,"text":"國務計要費1.5億元貪污案在民進黨全體力挺之下在立法院正式處罪二次經改國泰並視法收費3億以及洗錢案二審判18年目前停審當中請問一下這判決18年的停審有沒有在這次特赦的範圍內?次長"},{"start":8035.658,"end":8049.408,"text":"各位報告特赦案件按照社民法的規定它原章是限於已經確定的案件才有特赦範圍對所以停審這種案件基本上它不會被特赦的效率所及所以謝謝所以未來還會繼續追嗎"},{"start":8052.901,"end":8075.621,"text":"法務部委員你是講這個沒收的部分還是講審判的部分審判停審的審判當然就是司法院他個案上要繼續你檢察官也要表示意見啊公委員報告我們剛剛已經跟委員說明了在個案上檢察官他事實上公職檢察官有表示意見要注意停審的相關的消滅執照的規定有注意到這個待會本席再請教你請秘書長回答"},{"start":8078.339,"end":8083.583,"text":"今天到立法院來你完全就是來這裡把時間消耗掉沒有關係本席在這裡陪你"},{"start":8104.605,"end":8105.486,"text":"提出法院法官職權"},{"start":8130.014,"end":8156.659,"text":"但是法務部同意把外就醫有四個事項條件哪四項那是外接俗稱的不上台不演講之類的事實相關規定本席再跟你回憶一下不得參加選舉活動不得參加政治活動不得接受媒體訪問不得參與顯然與疾病無關的活動"},{"start":8158.653,"end":8179.882,"text":"陳水扁有沒有觸犯這些問題有沒有有沒有報告這38次的展延的保安就醫都有審酌這些因素啦那個案上台中都有審酌所以法務部跟司法院現在兩隻眼睛都遮住了都看不到只有人民看得到我們的司法看不到是不是"},{"start":8181.069,"end":8199.921,"text":"本席請教一下108年9月28日陳水扁參加民進黨、中央黨部前封街舉行33週年慶台灣派對狂歡這跟疾病就醫有沒有關係?請秘書長回答這跟疾病就醫有沒有關係?"},{"start":8201.068,"end":8225.573,"text":"那這個有沒有關係這些未定讞的案件有沒有關係這個還是由個案法官來本席再請教你有沒有關係這是國會殿堂因為保外就醫請問參加民進黨週年慶的歡樂派對有沒有跟就醫有關這些有些是涉及事實認定啦那在我們施法行政來那個次長請回答"},{"start":8230.225,"end":8245.612,"text":"這是直接跟法務部保外就醫的單書參加派對、狂歡派對、政黨狂歡派對有沒有跟政治有關?有沒有跟政治有關?法務部認為這跟政治有沒有關係?我請教你跟政治有沒有關係?參加政黨活動跟政治有沒有關係?"},{"start":8261.592,"end":8285.066,"text":"當時這個中間審酌是有按參酌相關醫療證明認為這有助於他醫療個人醫療的參加政治活動有助於他的醫療他有很多因素去審酌啦那包括醫療證明也是好108年11月20號陳水扁接受一邊一國行動黨2020立法委員選舉部分區立委提名他接受提名這是不是政治活動"},{"start":8287.222,"end":8304.795,"text":"市長,這是不是政治活動?所以你也看不出來這是不是政治活動?參加政黨正式的提名,是不是政治活動不曉得?法務部現在是龍、蝦、啞,又龍又蝦又啞。當然是法務部的職權,總不是法務部的職權。"},{"start":8316.752,"end":8340.911,"text":"好陳水扁參加凱道這個政治性團體募款參會112年5月26號市長這是不是政治活動各位報告我的答案還是跟剛剛回復委員的答案是一樣他標判準是一樣的那請教一下法務部"},{"start":8344.073,"end":8369.02,"text":"剛剛其實謝榮介委員提到的問題核心你們一直沒有回答停審有沒有影響追溯期主要是在問什麼你知道嗎有啊報告委員我剛剛有回答他是會影響他的追溯權是對他的追溯期並沒有減少對同案的追溯期有沒有減少看同案有沒有停審啊如果沒有停審他就過了追溯期對不對"},{"start":8370.499,"end":8373.46,"text":"所以陳信宇講阿民進黨誰沒有拿過陳水扁的錢阿有沒有共同洗錢有沒有共同對價有沒有共犯關係"},{"start":8399.011,"end":8425.547,"text":"這些人未來被查出來的時候都已經過了追溯期陳馨瑜講的全國人都知道你們就是幫他拖過追溯期是嗎各位報告這個當時在特徵乳查的時候如果有相當的共犯在這裏證告法務部還有司法院如果你們用這種態度在立法院詢答國會殿堂你們用這種態度"},{"start":8428.39,"end":8457.74,"text":"把你們守護國家司法天平人民得到保護跟社會秩序的最後一道防線你們的良知良心都被蒙蔽都在這裡做一些違心之論本席在隆重告訴你接下來我們還有很多還有很多我們的應對方式"},{"start":8460.85,"end":8487.891,"text":"我們不會就此作罷本席要再強調一下特赦陳水扁是不是成為這個社會和解的一個大家共同來思考的問題本席可以考慮也願意尊重"},{"start":8489.568,"end":8515.538,"text":"但是免罪免刑過程大家一定要講清楚還有基本上法務部跟司法院的態度也要很清楚今天為我們的教育影響多大我們下一代的教育原來總統可以貪汙然後可以得到特赦"},{"start":8520.258,"end":8544.23,"text":"當到了總統都還可以貪汙那誰不能貪汙總統可以特赦誰不能特赦我請問一下以後要怎麼教育我們的下一代這就是今天兩位在這裡的表率歷史都會記載今天的詢答我們接下來我們會把"},{"start":8547.429,"end":8576.107,"text":"其他對應的辦法我們也會做相關的準備但是請各位啊不管在哪一個位置不要蒙蔽了我們的初心各位當時走進司法界是抱著什麼樣的理想什麼樣的良知跟態度走進來那今天各位做到的你的子孫也在看你的子孫也會在看這樣做是對的嗎"},{"start":8582.297,"end":8600.534,"text":"謝謝那稍後與林思敏委員詢答之後我們依照先前的宣告處理臨時提案接續請林委員思敏進行詢答主席謝謝請那個次長"},{"start":8608.801,"end":8620.761,"text":"委員好是我想市長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令去做相關的研議嘛由法務部來做研議嘛 對不對"},{"start":8622.621,"end":8643.505,"text":"我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦"},{"start":8647.446,"end":8665.693,"text":"那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類"},{"start":8667.574,"end":8670.337,"text":"大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰"},{"start":8686.954,"end":8696.873,"text":"也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦"},{"start":8698.533,"end":8716.647,"text":"那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?"},{"start":8718.148,"end":8727.942,"text":"因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外"},{"start":8729.889,"end":8753.775,"text":"誰該特赦 誰不該特赦 憲法規定他是總統的特別權利 我也沒有辦法預判市長 但是我想在這邊 因為未來你會乘他的命做原議所以到底總統 我們現在就很好奇 這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想 最主要的原因 可能就基於說他是前總統 他是民進黨的創黨大佬"},{"start":8758.844,"end":8776.843,"text":"說蔡總統就在下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮"},{"start":8779.406,"end":8799.003,"text":"就是認為說這次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑"},{"start":8799.944,"end":8822.937,"text":"也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的這個司法案件正在法院審理中了但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎"},{"start":8830.083,"end":8849.589,"text":"法務部您的看法您認為這樣子有正當性嗎一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦站在法務部您是追求公平正義的一個立場您認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人"},{"start":8850.973,"end":8873.945,"text":"罪犯,您認為給他特赦．對得起我們這個社會．對得起這個國家．對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?各位報告．這個問題剛剛．如同我剛剛所回復而言的．特赦他還是總統．好啦,次長．我想我也不為難你．其實我很想告訴民進黨的朋友們"},{"start":8875.188,"end":8891.837,"text":"在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前 蔡總統您要去特赦春水餅真的不服社會的期待我們尊重你的特赦權 但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡"},{"start":8893.174,"end":8920.914,"text":"那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他"},{"start":8923.183,"end":8947.304,"text":"這個真的齁從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長 我也希望你們啦現在停審的四個案啦如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦"},{"start":8948.291,"end":8956.143,"text":"不要再遮遮掩掩了剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛"},{"start":8962.087,"end":8987.281,"text":"陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權"},{"start":8988.584,"end":9013.897,"text":"所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統"},{"start":9014.737,"end":9035.548,"text":"您再來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨 針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊"},{"start":9038.639,"end":9058.002,"text":"這個屬於這個個案,個案的法官選擇他會加以判斷秘書長,這不是個案啦,我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦,您本身也是擔任過法官,法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛"},{"start":9059.229,"end":9085.724,"text":"您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個趴趴照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啟審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義齁拋在腦後了啦"},{"start":9089.051,"end":9097.393,"text":"只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下"},{"start":9099.383,"end":9125.27,"text":"我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑"},{"start":9127.008,"end":9131.114,"text":"以最近一次的2007年為例,夫兒減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄"},{"start":9142.059,"end":9157.033,"text":"請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有5次的減刑它每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣你大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監索人滿為患"},{"start":9166.069,"end":9184.443,"text":"這是一個附屬的一個效應啦但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由啦另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些這個犯罪者希望他能夠趕快這個重新做人啊以起自新啊"},{"start":9185.724,"end":9203.826,"text":"所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統無次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點"},{"start":9204.827,"end":9224.887,"text":"他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎?"},{"start":9225.913,"end":9227.715,"text":"法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息"},{"start":9241.493,"end":9265.066,"text":"主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天"},{"start":9267.337,"end":9288.206,"text":"下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,赦免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做赦免的決定,他不見得要交研議。是,他自己直接做就...對,他赦免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。"},{"start":9288.959,"end":9314.139,"text":"那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?跟我們報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?"},{"start":9315.154,"end":9343.958,"text":"假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須是對不是因他是得所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧我們事實上我們這個這法律上研議我們會在一定的期限內完成如果必要的話如果有的話"},{"start":9344.999,"end":9345.119,"text":"謝謝 以上"},{"start":9361.316,"end":9379.865,"text":"臨時提案一略以要求法務部於明16日內提供績效報告及上開缺漏之統計數據．並於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告．內容應並含如下事項一、研議輕微竊盜案件是否於內勤當天．利用遠距視訊、偵訊告訴人．以縮短後續偵查時程．提升還起訴處分．"},{"start":9387.148,"end":9414.602,"text":"提升緩解訴處分或職權處分建樹及書類簡化的可信性以及其他能有效縮短案件偵查時程之具體措施公寓山崎市必先立即起遠距視訊硬體及相關設備的穩定性及便捷性素為使用者所詬病嚴重影響制度的推展及成果應定期或不定期監討硬體設備品質良幼使用情形及研議如何提高偵測執行成效的具體措施提案人委員吳宗憲等"},{"start":9419.731,"end":9427.686,"text":"因為現在還有一個第二個臨時提案剛剛提出來那我們現在一併宣讀第二案臨時提案二"},{"start":9428.922,"end":9456.237,"text":"有鑒於本委員會議事過程屢遭不當干擾．個別委員未經主席允許及使用麥克風．或是刻意影響其他委員發言．建請立法院總務單位．針對本委員會麥克風設置相關靜音裝置．供會議主席維持一場秩序．維護國會形象及品質．以立議事順暢進行提案人委員．羅志強、翁曉琳、傅坤祺、謝龍健．黃國昌、林思敏宣讀完畢"},{"start":9458.387,"end":9481.35,"text":"好 謝謝那如果你們有需要書面我請醫事人員準備好 第二案的書面資料好 那就第一案的部分因為是我提的臨時提案所以我這邊簡單就臨時提案的部分說明那臨時提案的部分主要是法務部過去三年他有一個AI系統"},{"start":9484.099,"end":9485.06,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9501.46,"end":9524.083,"text":"那因為過去已經總共花費的預算是3169萬2千元那法務部對於法務部的報告中並沒有提出到目前為止的具體數據例如說符合這些案件類型的案件數或實際採用的案件數或是成效的滿意度這個都沒有"},{"start":9524.944,"end":9538.934,"text":"那因為接下來法務部他還要再有接下來還有一個三年接下來三年也都還要繼續這個計畫那我們為了說確定這錢是使用在刀口上那是不是真的有這個必要"},{"start":9540.328,"end":9554.615,"text":"那我們當然會依據法務部所提供的數據去了解說我們要持續的支持還是要對這個部分要加以限縮所以我希望法務部明天能夠提那個績效報告"},{"start":9555.885,"end":9574.089,"text":"那另外就是因為還有兩個月內要提出一個研討跟精進的報告那有關那個績效的部分為什麼說明天要提出來給我因為相關的數據法務部之前也給過國科會所以"},{"start":9576.63,"end":9585.027,"text":"但是法務部並沒有給我那我也不懂這個原因是什麼法務部可以給國科會為什麼不可以給我好所以我希望法務部在明天把數據"},{"start":9586.618,"end":9615.129,"text":"能夠給我們然後另外就是也要去思考一下違罪的遠距訊問的一些設備還有那個目前的狀況這來提升緩起訴還有職權處分還有書類簡化的可行性那再來就是遠端視訊他的設備穩定性還有便捷性我們是不是說要定期跟不定期的研討那我的臨時提案的內容如上"},{"start":9621.707,"end":9646.353,"text":"主席本席對這個臨時提案的本意競表同意和支持因為我們要讓我們基層的司法人員能夠減輕負擔公欲善其事必先利其器像不管是AI還是遠端視訊這過去在其他地方都有採行過那提升它的品質跟效率的確是我們要支持的那剛剛主席在提到本案提案的內容之一就是說到明日要提供那因為這個很"},{"start":9647.133,"end":9670.053,"text":"很讓人詫異說短短一天要怎麼提供不過後來主席有做提案說明說因為之前法務部有提供給國科會卻沒有提供給我們召委所以我是不是可以請主席請法務部說明一下為什麼這個東西你可以提供給國科會卻不能給我們本委員會的召委或本委員會那那個是專委員你要先"},{"start":9672.24,"end":9687.552,"text":"剛中委有舉手,中委你要先說明我對如何去有效來縮減整個偵查程序不要讓它過於延宕其實這談的就是訴訟經濟但是我對吳宗憲委員這樣的一個提案我有幾個"},{"start":9696.12,"end":9706.354,"text":"疑慮比如說你說輕微案件是否在內勤當天當然講的應該是指的是檢察官嘛因為檢察官當天利用遠距視訊偵訊告訴人來縮短後續的一個偵查程序"},{"start":9712.002,"end":9725.799,"text":"這當然不用這個車徒這樣的一個勞煩這對被告對整個被徵訊人他本身也有也有他的一個利益經濟上的一個利益可是呢"},{"start":9726.42,"end":9750.123,"text":"就是說輕微的一個竊盜案件有時候啊你也很難去馬上就去判斷說叫輕微案件那你到最後輕不輕微都變成警察局他去做就基層的第一線的人去做判斷有時候檢察官你一問下去啦或者一個案子以後你做你這個程序進行完以後一問下去共犯就一大堆啦那共就是輕微那什麼叫做輕微"},{"start":9751.044,"end":9751.164,"text":"司法委員會議"},{"start":9780.964,"end":9782.029,"text":"跟書類簡化"},{"start":9784.076,"end":9809.266,"text":"他其實又是兩件事又真的又是兩件事那是不是這樣就是提升還起訴其實也未必真的也都未必所以這個部分我是對你的提案裡面我可以知道你的從這個提案的委員代議裡面方向我們大家都一致只是說是不是可以改一下因為這其實是兩件事他那個視訊的這個部分的一個偵訊跟他書類的一個簡化這是兩碼我是覺得這是兩碼事以上"},{"start":9814.916,"end":9836.666,"text":"謝謝莊委員那這個提案說明部分我就簡單補充一下就原則上就是OK好沒問題那因為主要提這個是因為因為現在現行犯那一群受理現行犯我記得經驗其實很多是類似什麼超商竊盜偷個小麵包牛奶那一種那是不是需要用到兩三個警察把他移送到地檢"},{"start":9837.526,"end":9856.52,"text":"這個我們主要是考量一個經濟的問題像兩個警察送一個人犯到地檢署他有時候車程是40分鐘甚至一個小時比如說從大西分局送到桃園地檢署我主要是考量這個那當然這個只是提案給法務部那法務部他可以去設計一個怎麼樣的模式比較適當"},{"start":9857.941,"end":9877.149,"text":"那沒問題那這個文字的部分如果中委員有建議怎麼修正那我覺得大意上我想應該大家都還蠻認同我們簡化檢警的壓力那接下來是不是我們請那個法務部能夠說明一下就是這個數據為什麼有提供給國科會並沒有提供給我們"},{"start":9884.837,"end":9912.923,"text":"各位報告因為AI的計畫它基本上是國科會它就這個整體的國家的相關的有關於這個科學發展動用這個國科會的基金所以它基本上在內控上它必須要定期的向國科會來呈報一些成果績效那至於為什麼沒有報到大院因為這個議題因為大院我沒有印象中大院有要求就是說本部就這個數據要提供過啦所以要提供當然沒有問題"},{"start":9914.224,"end":9924.02,"text":"時間的問題的話是不是因為我們就是說那明天是有點急是不是可以時間再寬限多一點長一點的時間"},{"start":9926.193,"end":9950.853,"text":"一個禮拜讓行政作業了因為這個數據他們已經提供了我們需要那麼久嗎?還有作業的問題他們公務機關大家公文簽簽簽不是說我拿來給你這個禮拜提供好不好因為今天才禮拜三嘛那我想數據提供給我們因為之前我們其實就AI的部分我們已經去問過很多次了部裡面的相關的事情那是不是說你能把提供給國科會的數據給我們就好"},{"start":9953.167,"end":9973.956,"text":"其實那個 社長我們不是要擋這件事我們是要就是把這件事弄清楚而已也許我們會非常支持剛才趙委員提了三天內是不是還是這個禮拜之前對就這個禮拜給我們好不好另外就內容的部分跟委員報告是不是我們司長做一些簡單的回應內容的部分OK"},{"start":9976.332,"end":9998.898,"text":"主席各位委員大家好有關於這個臨時提案的第五行我們建議建過兩次改成達成建過兩次改成達成然後系統部分因為我們沒有系統那是電子檔沒有系統這個系統兩次是不是給他刪除系統兩次刪除另外我們這一個內景視訊是從111年12月1號開始不是5月1號開始"},{"start":10004.019,"end":10025.506,"text":"所以建議把它改成12月1號另外在第二段有關於這個例如例如跨乎例如裡面的這個文具是不是建議符合預設案件類型的案件數把它改成事辦案件的件數因為這樣比較符合實際比較符合實際"},{"start":10028.507,"end":10046.105,"text":"然後有關於實際採用後面加四個字就是視訊解送這四個字就以上的一個修正建請能夠就用這種方式提案以上說明"},{"start":10054.501,"end":10076.685,"text":"那請問一下就各位委員對剛剛那個機關它的這個修改這部分各位委員有沒有不同的意見?有嗎?沒有,我想喔那個是不是給每位委員都一份好不好?不是只有趙薇友會會好那修改後的資料麻煩給各位委員都各一份"},{"start":10078.595,"end":10097.512,"text":"包括他本週內或者下週前提供的這個資料不是只有給召委是給本會委員是是是好謝謝好那如果各位委員跟機關如果說都沒有其他意義的話那我們就依照修正後的文字通過"},{"start":10110.333,"end":10113.654,"text":"提案委員有補充說明?"},{"start":10132.554,"end":10154.922,"text":"我想因為鑑於其他委員會的一個布置狀態跟質詢跟詢答的狀態我覺得在我們司法法制委員會有點獨樹一席就是說每個委員會的席上都有麥克風那發現過去確實有常常會有相互干擾那影響主席這個主持會議的情形所以我的提案重點就是說"},{"start":10155.922,"end":10156.182,"text":"總統行使特赦"},{"start":10172.602,"end":10173.162,"text":"提案委員已經補充說明完畢"},{"start":10205.821,"end":10230.614,"text":"主席還有我們在場所有的委員對於羅志強委員這個提案我競表反對你要看我們各個委員會裡面其實你把它想想看在我們司法法制委員會其實叫做過度攻防那這個其實都是短暫的你說多干擾"},{"start":10232.519,"end":10241.625,"text":"現在整個司法法制委員會啊,沒這樣插來插去,其實也不像司法法制委員會我坐在這邊沒有看到你們吵,我也不太習慣,我真的也不太習慣你說刻意去干擾其他委員,影響其他委員,其實這也沒有啦,那個就是叫爭執啊也不會說羅志強講話,我就跟他說你講什麼什麼有的沒的,這也都不是啦,那個我們從現場都可以判斷的出來啦"},{"start":10256.654,"end":10280.467,"text":"這個其實就是意見的一個不同那表達方式大概會難免會有所不同那剛好都是碰到議題啦議題是極度的一個爭議我倒這樣建議啦這個案子 羅委員先再思考一下啦不要處理這個案子啦不然人家會說羅志強講話 大家會把他靠他去影響不然你講話 你兩個就死 我如果要亂 你兩個就爽"},{"start":10282.288,"end":10285.032,"text":"你去看啦,我們司法法制委員會如果做這個限制以後啊,大家都會去牽拖嘛,那整個院會呢?"},{"start":10298.064,"end":10305.568,"text":"講這個委員會你可以講得義正直言其實你去看真正在院會裏面每次拿著麥克風大吵大鬧都是你們國民黨我不好意思說而已但是我覺得很好欸我覺得你們吵得很好我這邊聽得我很悅每次在表決我如果不聽你們國民黨的啥麥克風在那邊亂一下我說的就不像國民黨啊"},{"start":10316.789,"end":10317.67,"text":"這個其實都考驗主席的功力"},{"start":10342.398,"end":10349.259,"text":"有時候我也知道你調體今天我們司法法院法制委員會不怕頭你用調體給頭有時候把酒給阿嬌喝了阿嬌阿嬌我怎麼知道所以這個是我們司法法制委員會留下一個這會期我們就讓它優雅一點就繼續把它給炒下去意見不同不斷的攻防是好事我也沒看到罵來罵去的人出去像仇人"},{"start":10368.843,"end":10387.006,"text":"不會啦 不會啦 那個這個過度攻防在司法法制委員會 過一陣子大家熟了以後啊不然你跟傅坤祺今天再說 我就不用插手了 也要插手了他講什麼我都不想聽了 那他如果傅坤祺總召他講什麼話我都不想聽 沒有頂他兩句 他回到花蓮區他會覺得我今天都沒有人捧場"},{"start":10388.152,"end":10407.189,"text":"這也不太好,這個召委我是建議羅志祥委員先把這個再考慮一下啦,不要衝這個啦這個就有一點變成有個人的,個人的好像有點在報復啊不要牽扯到個人啦,這個司法法制委員會裡面既然要熱熱鬧鬧就讓他去吵了,熱熱鬧鬧司法法制委員會反而是這麼尖銳的一個議題工坊,讓社會去評價就好了啦"},{"start":10414.835,"end":10434.968,"text":"譬如說你講話我給你騷擾你的支持者一定會幹掉我嘛社會大眾會覺得中華選會怎麼這麼沒有禮貌嘛那這種事不要在我們司法法制委員會去限縮這一些啦不好啦國會自主當然我們也希望有它一定的一個秩序但是這些刻意的去限縮那個射程都會很遠啦這樣子"},{"start":10436.169,"end":10436.81,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":10461.675,"end":10485.732,"text":"好 謝謝莊委員總委我沒有那麼聰明還會幫大家設計鏡頭我沒那麼厲害好 那個蔡委員剛先舉手好 來我附和我們莊委員因為你如果看到你委員會你說麥克風要搭管子的靜音系統是司法委員會有這個獨立的這個麥克風其他委員會是使用無線的"},{"start":10487.165,"end":10500.13,"text":"他用無線的阿,阿你意思說其他委員會阿要比照這個精神,不是說阿我們也是要把牆製打關起來,阿是每一個委員會都會有用麥克風的一個狀況,阿你現在要用一個精英系統,阿到時候求院會開會的時候,國民黨就撒自己的麥克風來,這樣我們以後要用一個可以打那個,遮斷"},{"start":10510.964,"end":10521.391,"text":"這段信和傳播都來用燈所以這個下去沒完沒了啦我會覺得像剛才總委員講的本來議題就是會討論討論有時候會精俗有時候會講到開花那本來就是討論的過程啊總不能說你連這個討論的過程都要把它精簡掉都不可以討論我認為這也不好過去民進黨在以前就是多數的時候也是一樣會有討論也是會有吵"},{"start":10539.264,"end":10539.284,"text":"總委員"},{"start":10565.054,"end":10581.959,"text":"謝謝主席我想誠如前面兩位委員所表達的其實在我們立法院除了委員會中心主義之外委員會都有各自自己的傳統這個傳統不是我們在做我們幾任的任期就可以形成的我舉例來講可能幾位"},{"start":10583.669,"end":10609.707,"text":"新科委員有沒有發現財政委員會他的簽出席跟簽到發言呢沒有說到8點才在排隊那邊等簽發言的他們是晚上4點來早上4點來依序誰在那邊搶搶的到7點半就按照那個時候就簽了發言簽完發言之後他們就好整以暇8點到各委員會去簽那這個我們如果不在財政委員會我們可以去干預嗎?不會"},{"start":10610.948,"end":10634.808,"text":"那財政委員會有因此,別的委員會沒有這樣子,他就改變嗎?沒有。所以其實啊,一個有歷史傳統的國會,慢慢會形成他的各自的文化。好或不好,你喜歡或不喜歡,他就是一個。那我們司法法制委員會,目前的這個桌上麥克風,就跟其他委員會不一樣。在財政委員會,過去叫做預算委員會,最常在審預算,審預算一大堆人,所以為什麼財政委員會在九樓大禮堂?"},{"start":10635.589,"end":10649.353,"text":"但是真正審預算的時候也是誠如剛剛蔡委員說的就是一人一隻手持麥克風跟主席在對談那主席有坐在哪裡?那時候主席不會坐在主席台上主席都坐在剛剛現在放法典的那個地方為什麼?便於討論"},{"start":10651.474,"end":10678.192,"text":"但是那時候那麼近為什麼要麥克風呢麥克風是要議事人員收音之用因為預算審查的時候每個委員他到底什麼理由刪除多少保留多少怎麼樣那個都要議事人員要很清楚所以我要強調的可能大家一時看到這是在議場的議事衝突或是委員會的程序那個其實都不是我們國會審議的正常的常態真正的常態就是大家"},{"start":10679.013,"end":10693.438,"text":"面對面你一言我語很迅速有效率的討論那主席也只有在會議秩序混亂的時候才會出來整理所以我相信吳召偉或者本席輪值召委的時候我都會盡量的讓大家的互動討論盡量的順暢簡單講"},{"start":10697.032,"end":10711.392,"text":"會議的主席你可以說他是交通警察你可以說他是裁判其實呢在籃球場上有時候大家碰撞一下裁判不會馬上吹犯規所以我是覺得這個案子呢避免有一種針對性的如果真的要說針對性"},{"start":10712.754,"end":10733.395,"text":"我大概可以理解這個提案提出的原因就是在前天我們司法法制委員會的會議室被草野協商借用來使用那為什麼草野協商用這裡呢幾位新科委員跟大家報告一下過去我們的草野協商都在一廠三樓的那個會議室那個會議室的格局就是這樣子每個人面前都有一個麥克風"},{"start":10735.037,"end":10735.077,"text":"主席"},{"start":10755.259,"end":10777.896,"text":"那為什麼不到九樓大禮堂因為九樓大禮堂沒有這樣的桌上麥克風所以其實這樣的一個演變會跑成政黨朝野協商跑到利用302的紅樓302的會議室是有這個原因的所以大家不要因為一時的大家的意識的一個互相的互動就做出這樣的一個決定不然陳如超委員說的難道無線麥克風你都可以裝靜音嗎"},{"start":10779.434,"end":10796.208,"text":"這樣會讓人覺得有爭議性那剛好這個提案內容其實我也很想就教於提案委員本來他沒有加他後來加了一個什麼字加了說維護國會形象及品質我認同我們的會場要有秩序要由主席來維持"},{"start":10797.469,"end":10815.865,"text":"但是國會形象跟品質不是靠這個可以把國會議員任意的要驅逐出場嗎?可以不經討論就要近乎表決嗎?這些都才是社會關切的這些國會的形象內容在我們這個會議室當中每位委員都可以出席"},{"start":10817.199,"end":10844.019,"text":"包括秘密會議都有一個限制上符合的要求但是委員要發言當然我們要尊重由主席來裁決但是有時候在一些會議的進行情況你願我欲當然會有一點點混亂但是只要議事能夠進行大家不要採取過當的手段去造成這樣的一個針對性的情況我再次強調其他的委員會雖然沒有桌上型的麥克風但是都有無線麥克風他能裝靜音嗎"},{"start":10846.84,"end":10866.011,"text":"第二目前這樣的配置剛好可以補我們草野協商一場三樓空間不足的情況你要把那樣的情況放到這裡來再抓到這種情況我想包括在場過去在第九屆我們黃總召黃國昌委員代表時代力量的時候我們看到在那裡"},{"start":10866.952,"end":10884.767,"text":"不管是蘇院長還是游院長都盡可能的讓每一個政黨的代表參與相代表盡可能暢所欲言從來沒有在議場三樓後面三樓的會議室上去使用靜音的裝置頂多如果大家太熱烈了主席會說我們休息一下"},{"start":10885.367,"end":10886.587,"text":"我來這個台就示範一下基本上不要講得這麼嚴重"},{"start":10915.39,"end":10930.585,"text":"還有這兩個麥克風在我講的是桌上型那第一個如果真的照這個我們鍾嘉賓委員講這麼傳統這麼神聖啊這兩個台也不該放上來嘛不是嗎這兩個台是我們共同決議放上來的啊"},{"start":10932.004,"end":10960.23,"text":"我們提議你們同意啊柯建民總召當時也是認為說怎麼會把這兩個質詢台拆掉他也不認同他直接講的啊所以那次基本上是無意通過把這兩個台放上來的所以我要講一個重點是什麼你剛剛講的無線麥克風唉拜託我們到別的委員會你平常有看到無線麥克風拿出來在質詢的時候嗎在桌子上講嗎第三個我要跟你講大家都在備詢台上跟質詢台上講的啊"},{"start":10962.366,"end":10977.379,"text":"沒有我跟你講預算審查一回事啦我先跟你講嘛至少本人本人發現其他委員會沒有桌上型麥克風也沒有影響到你的意識跟詢答的模式啊第四個我要跟你講很簡單啦"},{"start":10980.021,"end":10993.191,"text":"欸 設個總開關而已嘛 也不是 今天說真的國民黨是一直很客氣啦 你們每次按個麥克風 按著 主席就在那邊吵半天你們真的有聽主席才是說 主席準發言才發言嗎 沒有啦"},{"start":10994.332,"end":11004.419,"text":"我剛剛自己上來這邊台上講話我去清清楚楚那主席就可以指定誰上來阿兩支麥克風都在阿開個總開關也沒把麥克風拆掉也歡迎今天黨團協商來借302阿302的時候總開關開了大家又可以在這邊討論阿用桌上麥克風預算審查需要一樣麥克風總開關一開一樣可以討論阿"},{"start":11016.388,"end":11034.386,"text":"所以換言之沒有你們講那個樣子只是今天鑑於過去我們這將近三個月來我看到司法法制讀書一次跟其他委員會完全不相同的做法你講無線麥克風可以啊無線麥克風一樣比照大家有我們也有啊但別的委員會竟然裝上型麥克風平常是沒有的"},{"start":11036.969,"end":11040.932,"text":"我們也就設個靜音總開關而已那很簡單就是讓我們的意識可以更順暢否則說真的我直接講我承認啦好不好中委員我直接承認啦我覺得我們的那個柯總召每天按著那個麥克風心海羅盤我真的有點受不了啦"},{"start":11054.414,"end":11067.25,"text":"他要不是完全不拉星海羅盤啊到上面那個台上一樣繼續星海羅盤沒關係所有人看過這一段時間的直播齁都是我們總召多少時間按著那個麥克風不放啊所以拜託齁"},{"start":11070.053,"end":11094.889,"text":"讓我們總召能夠有一個莊嚴的新海羅盤發表地啦所以可以到上面台上去講啦所以我的主張還是很簡單就是開一個總開關平常我們在委員會審案的時候沒有需要的時候要上來就上這個質詢台跟備詢台你甚至有需要的時候打開寫上介302我覺得很好啊做到一些麥克風就可以來打開來讓大家討論啊沒有那麼了不起啦"},{"start":11099.552,"end":11118.829,"text":"謝謝那沈委員主席齁各位這個案子看起來是沒什麼啦齁但只是我是這樣覺得建議大家啦齁如果說這種這種這個麥克風這種問題弄到等一下又要表決齁那實在是在司法法制委員會實在是說實在是蠻難看啦齁那這個"},{"start":11122.293,"end":11149.256,"text":"其實剛才羅志強委員所講的其實因為你可能去別的委員會都是只有去發言了事實上發言完之後每個委員會都還有很多討論他們就是桌上請麥克風很麻煩每天的飲食提案這個要講話那個要請行政機關說明麥克風傳來傳去並不是每一個委員自己都有一支捏傳來傳去那我們現在有這樣子這個司法法制委員會有設置這個桌上請麥克風這基本上是一個進步"},{"start":11150.942,"end":11171.496,"text":"使我認為每一個委員會都應該要坐上警麥克風便於國會議員在這裏的發言那不過現在談的是這個靜音裝置那我就覺得說像這樣子的問題其實整個議事的過程裏面剛才羅志強委員說我很受不了你們這樣一直發言但是這個作為多數黨因為你們表決會贏"},{"start":11174.491,"end":11189.268,"text":"所以你們就應該要忍受少數黨在整個審查過程中所有的在議事規則手段之下的杯葛這個我覺得這個是天經地義的這是民權初步這個也不到議事規則的程度了"},{"start":11190.029,"end":11202.723,"text":"那你這個東西你說做成了決議我們現在立法院齁我們立法院這個是我們立法院自己的規定齁我們立法院議場安全維護管理要點第7條他就明定會議時委員不得攜帶麥克風走達達達進入會場"},{"start":11205.848,"end":11214.673,"text":"但是我們每次院會國民黨團就是到目前為止只有國民黨團帶麥克風進去這個議會自從這條規定定了以後只有國民黨團帶我們還有還曾經國民黨團跑到民進黨黨團來因為我們委員看不下去就去把你們的麥克風偷搬回黨團還去告我們民進黨的委員說偷你們的麥克風"},{"start":11231.297,"end":11246.833,"text":"所以這個明定的規定我們如果國民黨團以後從這裡我們副總召在這裡可以代表國民黨說在這裡宣示說以後我發誓我國民黨改邪歸正以後絕對不會再拿自己帶麥克風進去議場那我覺得那我們就來規範所有美國委員會看麥克風怎麼使用"},{"start":11252.998,"end":11274.371,"text":"那這個裝一個靜音裝置不是說什麼多大的問題啦我只是覺得說在這裡表決這個我認為不妥啦我認為不妥難看啦好像說我在這邊如果說我提個提案說我在司法法制委員會齁這個有的委員發言的是音量實在是大到我受不了所以我是說我們要設置一個裝置如果委員講話聲量超過多少分貝自動斷電"},{"start":11276.015,"end":11276.075,"text":"主席"},{"start":11305.241,"end":11333.581,"text":"呃我進表剛剛各位講的我都同意啦這是難得審判會委員說要有次序啊今天我們很難得民進黨立委嘴裡講出議場要有次序真的很難得啊民進黨立委終於講出要有次序啊這不容易啊我們就是因為要有次序所以才訂了提的這個臨時提案"},{"start":11334.718,"end":11353.993,"text":"我要特別表達,從第4屆、第5屆、第6屆、第7屆、第8屆立委,民進黨連鐵鍊都拿進來了,白天正題什麼都有,還有把所有立委的椅子都把每一個門都堆起來,然後鎖上。"},{"start":11356.109,"end":11373.556,"text":"我都親眼看到齁堆在那裡所以齁上一屆是國民黨走的兩次你在講話人家都沒有插你的嘴啊對不對一個基本的尊重嘛基本的尊重嘛有嗎所以喔我要特別強調就是說這一屆這一屆議場要怎麼樣持續維護"},{"start":11383.462,"end":11384.362,"text":"我特別強調一個 如果今天完全是"},{"start":11414.625,"end":11441.374,"text":"說可以怎麼樣然後不要有次序那以後院會質詢就不是30分鐘15分鐘阿講到我高興下來再下來那院會質詢可以問3個小時5個小時嗎不是充分表達嗎當然要有一個次序嘛所以我要特別強調這個會期到現在經過協商以後國民黨完全照協商規則走要特別強調這個"},{"start":11443.334,"end":11445.135,"text":"因為兩邊沒有共識大家就發洩情緒而已啦"},{"start":11469.147,"end":11493.215,"text":"主席要有耐性 主席要有耐性 當召委真的要耐性讓我們的委員針對這個案子表達意見這是基本的每一個人至少表達一次嘛 對不對那如果這樣 那委員你可不可以就趕快總結不用再一直重複同一個議題了因為我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間我覺得在司法法制委員會最大的問題是永遠要閹割別人講話的權利"},{"start":11496.361,"end":11521.056,"text":"現在連麥克風都要消音這件事情姿勢體大姿勢體大它涉及的才是不折不扣的國會尊嚴大家都看過英國國會開會吧英國國會上下議會我們講下議會一人坐著非常近的距離他們可以針對激烈的議案裡頭爭執"},{"start":11523.462,"end":11546.527,"text":"彼此大聲的呼喊對話那是英國的民主民主是什麼就是大家可以講他想講的話在國會殿堂表達他的主張我真的很難以置信原本之前羅志強委員他似乎有要提一個案是說沒收麥克風"},{"start":11548.103,"end":11573.659,"text":"後來好像是沒有提還是沒有討論到那今天轉了一個彎就是麥克風還是可以設在這裡因為我想羅委員也知道說這個辦公室除了平常我們司法法制委員會開會之外也會有朝野協商或其他會議要使用所以換湯不換藥今天的提案內容改為把它消音這樣子但是任何一個議事的進行都是考驗主席"},{"start":11574.64,"end":11601.822,"text":"是否公正處理像我剛剛也要嚴重的抗議我明明是第一在這一輪我比副總召還要早舉手我在跟審法會委員一起舉手的時候您就會略過然後讓副總召先發言如果我要抗議您剛剛的主持不公我唯一的方法也是按下麥克風向你現場抗議但是我隱忍"},{"start":11603.618,"end":11623.55,"text":"所以主席是一個意識運作能不能夠維持秩序讓大家都能夠不去動氣不要有情緒最重要的那個關鍵的人物叫做會議的主席好你今天要設一個消音器那請問什麼時候誰可以決定可以消音"},{"start":11625.314,"end":11652.172,"text":"這樣子的權限就是把國會委員發聲的權力給消音、給沒收這件事情滋事體大這是臺灣中華民國國會非常嚴肅的課題可以因為委員的不耐委員不喜歡聽誰的心海羅盤我不認為柯總召說的事情不值得其他委員去借鏡那是他30多年國會的歷練"},{"start":11654.209,"end":11672.464,"text":"大家都要坐在這裡去自我內化自己的修養民主就是不同的意見你必須遵守必須聆聽等一下主席我還在發言您可以請坐下來嗎剛剛前面的委員也都發言很長好嗎我站著聽你講啦我怕您腿酸啦好不好"},{"start":11675.452,"end":11690.172,"text":"主席是一個重要的主持意識的那個靈魂人物而且我更要說今天在這個會議室桌上的這一台麥克風他所代表的意義不只是坐在這裡的國會議員他所行使的名義"},{"start":11691.374,"end":11718.215,"text":"更重要的是這個麥克風他關切議事人員在後續的文字記錄能夠清楚的他可以被錄音他可以精確的如果那場會議當中有什麼樣的法案文字或是預算的數字聽不清楚他可以recall他可以再去聽確保所有的議事記錄是精準無誤的讓每一個人的發言都是精準呈現的"},{"start":11718.755,"end":11723.117,"text":"現在就要考驗主席主持的公義了現在就要考驗主席主持的公義了現在就要考驗"},{"start":11746.588,"end":11755.257,"text":"的團員會主席主持的公立嗎?聯合縣招委沒有主持的公立嗎?現在正在發言．據誰在發言．現在正在發言．"},{"start":11767.329,"end":11768.511,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11788.09,"end":11806.935,"text":"好,這樣,OK,好了,結束齁還在進行發言沒有,那個,先等一下,先大家都等一下我就是示範一下大家都先冷靜一下好,你示範完了,可以讓我繼續發言嗎?我沒有動怒啊,我保持風度啊"},{"start":11808.795,"end":11820.838,"text":"主席請考驗主席的主持能耐現在是誰在干擾本席的發言現在是誰在"},{"start":11823.542,"end":11839.31,"text":"這是要考驗主席主持的功力我剛剛還沒有論述完好嗎主席我還在發言中我還在發言中吳宗憲主席這是考驗您主持的功力"},{"start":11843.593,"end":11856.025,"text":"那我可以繼續嗎我還在發言我們會議中是不是說當有人在發言的時候其他人你不要按麥克風來插嘴至少我們先這樣好不好"},{"start":11857.766,"end":11874.243,"text":"我順便跟吳氏雅委員說明一件事情並沒有所謂的什麼先讓副總統講你再講我跟你講我盡量因為雙方正反兩方一個講完再換一個我跟你講一個講完再換一個我覺得我的做法是這樣"},{"start":11877.072,"end":11879.274,"text":"Calm down, please."},{"start":11879.274,"end":11880.115,"text":"Calm down."},{"start":11901,"end":11902.302,"text":"主席我還在發言當中我發言繼續喔所以我說我們桌上的這一位"},{"start":11909.639,"end":11910.079,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11933.994,"end":11942.14,"text":"所以這一台麥克風在桌上它除了它有實際上的方便我們議事人員能夠精準記錄任何一個預算數字跟法條的文字的討論過程它必須精準呈現所以這個收音是有必要它是一個系統是方便議事人員這是功能之一功能之二也是讓線上所有的一起現在透明公開是國會的開會議事程序的必要"},{"start":11962.276,"end":11964.477,"text":"所以說讓國會能夠真正的透明公開有的時候如果沒有透過麥克風的發言在收音的系統在網路直播的呈現上完全沒有辦法聽見委員在爭執的內容議案的討論是什麼"},{"start":11978.582,"end":11994.031,"text":"所以如果要進行國會的透明公開我們需要這一個重要的麥克風是每一個民意代表、國會議員他發聲最重要的協助他聲音、民主、論述、辯論的武器"},{"start":11997.253,"end":12015.394,"text":"不可以這樣來沒收他不是只是一個行而下的麥克風他是一個行而上的國會議員基於民意、質詢、職權的行使所以我要跟主席我個人是完全沒有辦法接受這樣一個提案基於我們議事記錄的必要"},{"start":12016.795,"end":12017.015,"text":"主席"},{"start":12033.678,"end":12052.255,"text":"很好委員是不是能夠做到自律我們可以交換意見彼此約束但是如果今天羅志強委員在司法法制委員會提出這樣一個臨時提案那我要問同樣是關乎國會議員的自律也就是民進黨提出的國會改革方案的議事規則MeToo的條款國民黨不給我們審查"},{"start":12056.579,"end":12078.591,"text":"那是攸關國會議員的自律為什麼民進黨提的國會改革方案議事規則裡面有關保密、洩密的相關行責相關的自律行為國民黨不讓我們半個條文進入實質討論今天就提案論提案羅志強委員的提案是要求國會議員的自律我支持自律可以討論"},{"start":12079.992,"end":12087.316,"text":"但是為什麼你提的這個要沒收麥克風消音裝置的提案可以在這裡被討論但是民進黨的國會改革方案攸關權責相符的國會議員的自律半個條文都不讓我們審查"},{"start":12096.622,"end":12101.727,"text":"這就是現在這個失靈失序的國會最嚴肅的議題如果今天要討論這個提案要透過表決的話那是不是也讓民主進步黨的職權行使法、議事規則乃至於立法委員行為法同樣都可以在這裡像現在一樣大家輪流站上發言台去表述他的意見透過討論、匯聚共識如果真的不行要表決"},{"start":12122.765,"end":12145.935,"text":"也要經過這個對人民對社會論述的過程所以主席現在還在講手機所以我可以繼續說這樣一個提案萬萬不可這一個麥克風它不是一個形體物體的麥克風它代表的是113個國會議員他行使的憲法賦予的我的國會職權"},{"start":12148.197,"end":12172.511,"text":"所以我反對這樣的議案我也認為不應當進入表決大家不需要自律的行為如果這樣那請讓我們審查我們的國會改革的立法委員行為法跟議事規則同樣都在討論國會議員的自律行為好嗎這樣齁我覺得既然雙方的認知差那麼遠我就直接進行表決好了而且我覺得沒有我跟你講我這邊決議直接進行表決"},{"start":12173.891,"end":12199.03,"text":"你要提什麼修正動議修正文字的動議啊 怎麼可以修正動議可以提出來啊那我先 我可以說明一下吧不是啊 因為我跟你講啦我跟你講啦 既然大家覺得所有主持不公嘛 對不對我解釋你們又聽不進去 那就直接表決吧這樣最清楚嘛 這少數服從多數啊 大家就來表決啊那我就依照議事規則進行表決啊"},{"start":12214.439,"end":12235.268,"text":"來 主席啊小金公啦 小金公 你實在好厲害"},{"start":12241.391,"end":12264.509,"text":"來個主席阿來來來主席阿我建議齁我一個建議啦回憶的建議啦齁因為這個案勒當然也不是敏感啦那議事規則的過程包括國會之律每個議場都一樣全國大小議會都一樣齁但是也都各有道理"},{"start":12265.714,"end":12278.726,"text":"那應該先休息其實讓提案人跟他們召集人我認為還有協商的空間大家可以緩一下為什麼因為這兩個發言台不是可以消音嗎對不對"},{"start":12281.132,"end":12297.044,"text":"這兩個消音台是可以消音的嘛那主席上面有一個消音器嘛所以是不是大家協商一下那也許可以觀察也許可以有另外的作為那緩一下那剛剛"},{"start":12298.365,"end":12314.681,"text":"提案人也願意說大家可以就這個國會自主裡面其實言論自由當然很重要可是也確實這兩個多月來民進黨確實干擾的次數比較多我在這看得很清楚"},{"start":12316.345,"end":12329.371,"text":"民進黨少數干擾多數的比較多所以我建議先休息五分鐘讓他們去協商那這有跟這部分齁我這邊先宣告一下我這邊先宣告一下"},{"start":12330.7,"end":12345.897,"text":"今天不是說我講話大聲 因為沒辦法 我不再喊大聲大家聽不到我在講什麼 大家一團亂 比國小班會還不如啦那請大家回去研讀立法委員行為法 你在開會的時候你就要服從主席的約制嘛 但是沒有人甩我啊"},{"start":12347.332,"end":12364.419,"text":"好那不用講那麼多今天如果今天如果我有違反任何議事規定的話那你們該怎麼處理都怎麼處理今天主席主持對或不對不是你莊銳雄一個人講就算了不用不需要現在休息現在休息"},{"start":12592.125,"end":12615.673,"text":"好那我們現在開始開會我們先上午會議時間我們進行至所有登記法院委員詢答完畢為止那強哥是要補充首先"},{"start":12617.39,"end":12638.95,"text":"剛剛跟我們的鍾嘉斌這個委員我們稍微聊了一下我覺得也認同啦很多的我們的國會的議事的討論大家都在進行當中也可以做調整一旦形成新的默契跟共識大家就執行不一定要做設備端的調整我舉個例子剛剛你們一直在談到說那個"},{"start":12640.111,"end":12663.113,"text":"院會的時候 國民黨拿麥克風必然摘下我就被做新聞的那個我想如果有看到我當天就道歉了而且我就承諾我再也不會拿麥克風去因為跟各位坦白講我並不知道那個規定所以這是我願意認錯然後願意改進那後來國民黨也再也沒有拿麥克風進到院會這一點我想要澄清一下但是我覺得這就是一個好的方式嘛"},{"start":12663.914,"end":12681.545,"text":"把規矩訂立之後那有的就是我們透過大家的協商默契來改變我們接下來的這個議場的文化因為剛剛跟嘉賓召委講說還是讓大家用自律的方式啦那我覺得這一點我能接受啦我也認同所以換言之我也是希望說經過這個提案"},{"start":12683.866,"end":12698.202,"text":"以後大家桌上行的這個麥克風你要講可以啦先經過主席同意先舉個手說主席我要發言主席說yes之後你再去按這個麥克風若是這樣的話是經過主席同意的話那我覺得大家都能夠自我約束我覺得沒有問題"},{"start":12704.289,"end":12731.819,"text":"但是如果說不能夠自我約束我也接受大家如果還是像過去這三個月有忍不住的衝動想按這個麥克風到時候再來提這個臨時提案也來得及所以這一點我覺得嘉賓委員跟我提的一個意見我覺得我能接受所以今天在這個地方我就是把我的那個提案延後先往後延後但不限期延後也許我們的文化就建立了那也拜託大家我們所有的委員包括我自己"},{"start":12732.97,"end":12743.561,"text":"主席沒有才事之前不要按這個麥克風讓主席方便來去做這個議事上的一個這個主持跟進行以上那我就先把我的案子撤回言後以上謝謝"},{"start":12747.21,"end":12751.452,"text":"請問修正文字後的提案第一案各位有拿到了吧那請問"},{"start":12771.092,"end":12782.998,"text":"就這個修正後文字有無異議沒有異議的話那臨時提案第一案就依照修正後文字通過接下來我們請中嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":12801.158,"end":12818.887,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請司法院吳秘書長及法務部黃次長好,麻煩秘書長、黃次長那是不是那個行廳的李廳長也幫忙陪同,協助我們秘書長好"},{"start":12824.144,"end":12838.38,"text":"那個秘書長、次長我的標題是總統特赦權不影響司法判決不法所得處分非刑罰維持沒收我先看第一頁這是1996年時任總統秘書長吳博雄他說"},{"start":12842.004,"end":12869.948,"text":"國家元首行使赦免權是以行政權即司法權之窮為法治國家權利分立原則的例外情形．他的目的在緩和對立、促進團結請問秘書長你認不認同這樣的一個對於總統特赦權的描述總統特赦權會影響到司法判決嗎?可以事後去影響司法判決嗎?可不可以?"},{"start":12873.147,"end":12876.768,"text":"這段談話是當年1996年總統府秘書長吳博雄所說的,你認同他這樣的一個描述嗎?"},{"start":12890.653,"end":12917.505,"text":"吳前秘書長這樣我尊重他的說法請問次長你認為這樣的描述是否允當基本上前半段他是一個客觀的描述他的確是一個權力分立原則的例外但後半段他是不是有緩和對立促進這涉及到一個價值觀的判斷所以你認為其實總統特赦權不能在事後去影響先前的司法判決是不是這樣"},{"start":12919.842,"end":12923.643,"text":"特赦學員不會在事後去影響司法判決?有沒有改變之前的司法判決?沒有嘛!"},{"start":12944.671,"end":12945.812,"text":"總統特赦權不會影響既有的司法判決"},{"start":12960.148,"end":12981.067,"text":"那過去30年有哪些人被特赦我想今天大家已經談了很多了那根據赦免法的第三條有兩個情況一個是免除期刑一個是罪行之宣告並為無效那我想請教一下這幾個案子往下看這一個韓運平將軍被特赦的理由犯罪事實有沒有被推翻有沒有請問社長"},{"start":12985.848,"end":13011.943,"text":"在他特赦的當中有把他的犯罪事實推翻嗎?沒有他不法且有責的部分有沒有把他推翻?沒有但是總統府說為落實罪行相當之憲法原則顧念國軍將士服務軍旅之貢獻應以服應國民正當法律情感今天我們在談的國民的法律情感秘書長你覺得認同這樣的一段文字描述嗎?"},{"start":13015.105,"end":13029.874,"text":"這個總統府這樣描述我們真重好很好來但是另外一個案子就不太一樣了蘇炳坤案他的唯一證據是被刑求後的自白請問在這個案件當中犯罪事實有沒有被再拿出來確認請問次長你覺得呢"},{"start":13035.469,"end":13057.205,"text":"這個本案他是認為是個冤獄案嘛他也是確定判決之後罪行宣告無效啦是 罪行宣告無效跟前面的韓將軍一樣 罪行宣告無效但是沒有變更之前的判決好 但是總統府說人權保障再審好 這是人權保障但是再審法官說承認本案是冤案秘書長你認同嗎 再審法官自己這樣講"},{"start":13059.464,"end":13088.196,"text":"總統府的沒有這是我說再審法官這是我列出來的我從新聞當中發現再審法官他承認本案是冤案為什麼再審法官會這樣講我們推敲一下因為該案唯一證據是被刑求後的自白但是已經沒有司法究竟的途徑所以透過總統府以人權保障為由以免罪行之宣告給予他是不是這樣子好來在法務部次長來"},{"start":13089.269,"end":13098.44,"text":"市長你有沒有聽過你們曾經承辦總統跟人權委員會做的叫做228或者說政治受難或者國家不法的"},{"start":13099.5,"end":13125.736,"text":"回復名譽的證書頒證有沒有這個印象就平復行政部法跟司法部法什麼叫做行政部法跟司法部法那司法部法當時因為涉及到相關的司法案件當時的司法可能有問題那回復名譽是不是回復名譽他有很多回復他名譽的方式譬如說剔除他的錢跟資料相關的OK那回復名譽總統是根據哪一個授權他可以頒一個回復名譽證書"},{"start":13128.903,"end":13131.485,"text":"那請問一下過去這幾個特赦案有沒有做類似的回復名譽的宣告?"},{"start":13147.101,"end":13150.243,"text":"法務部書面報告大赦特赦軍屬政治措施軍非否定原判確定判決所確認之犯罪行為"},{"start":13170.391,"end":13195.987,"text":"此與今在審非常上述改判無罪,性質上有種不同請問秘書長,你認同法務部書面報告這些內容嗎?這我們都尊重你都是尊重,好啦,我也是尊重啦,既然你是尊重的話,來我們往下看所以目前扁案細數中和判決確定的有幾個案,我們看到了大概如圖所說啦請問一下,那麼秘書長,可以對停審中的案件進行特赦嗎?"},{"start":13201.878,"end":13225.41,"text":"這個 這個我們其實是尊重總統如何來 次長你認為呢因為今天從頭到尾我們秘書長都尊重我也尊重他特赦案件本部的立場是認為只限於確定案件是的為確定案件沒有 不是設成法律那請問一下秘書長今天有委員黃國昌總召問說目前停審中的案件你說要回去調查一下山中案目前是不是停審中馬前總統的山中案是不是停審中"},{"start":13227.932,"end":13239.569,"text":"停審是不是一種裁定目前裁定停審案件應該不會只有扁案一案吧你告訴我是不是不只一案裁定停審這種案件不只一案吧"},{"start":13241.485,"end":13262.23,"text":"應該這個有這個規定應該其他被告也有可能所以你可以我可以推論說很多案嗎是不是這樣子聽長你點頭你說一下是不是不只一樣很多案因為裁定停審案很多還是停審應該不是只有這四案好那請問馬前總統的三宗案是裁定停審還是實質停審這個部分我們要再去查一下我告訴你他是在實質停審他還沒有裁定停審"},{"start":13263.3,"end":13284.982,"text":"所以這些大家都誤以為說目前只有扁案呢是有幾個案停審然後我們這個特赦呢會對於停審案子產生效力沒有嘛對不對缺點釐清往下看好請問今天爭議的焦點特赦後的犯罪所得應與沒收赦免法第3條只有免罪刑喔請問罪行宣告無效有沒有影響到沒收的程序請問法務部"},{"start":13286.26,"end":13309.238,"text":"沒有 沒收它不是一個刑它不是一個刑嘛 它只是對不法所得的一個財產秩序的回復嘛 是不是這樣子 它不是刑嘛秘書長你同意嗎 沒收不是一個刑 它也無法透過特赦來把免除 對不對所以有不法所得人需要執行沒收的程序嘛 是不是這樣子 社長是不是這樣"},{"start":13310.297,"end":13330.479,"text":"很明確嘛好所以呢往下看結論啦齁沒收並非刑罰免刑後仍應執行沒收是不是這樣子刑罰是對人的處分沒收是剝奪財產它並不是一種刑罰你們的意見是這樣嗎它不是一種刑罰而是一種回復財產的秩序讓於犯罪人"},{"start":13330.959,"end":13359.791,"text":"他因為不法的所得造成產生秩序回復到應有的狀態他不是一個處罰而是一個處分好來所以我們今天來看一下所以今天來看拉法業案有沒有成功作為不法所得有嗎花了多久的時間非常多年非常多年所以拉法業案我們看到的情況是要執行沒收並沒有完成他有沒有時效的限制"},{"start":13361.741,"end":13370.968,"text":"默說按照這個司法規定他是有有一些是有實效的規定的好那所以目前你們要有機會跟社會上說貶案所涉及到的有"},{"start":13372.083,"end":13400.67,"text":"還在沒收執行當中還無法沒收的實效如何?公務員報告現在本案這個個案已經確定了我們沒收的部分都已經執行完畢該沒收的都沒收了而這些該沒收的假設有赦免的話也不受赦免的影響好最後我們來看一下這是南韓總統的特赦案這是其他國家的例子南韓的法務部表示政府才會以人道考量並期待以此促成南韓朝野理性和解政治為出發點"},{"start":13402.031,"end":13416.989,"text":"因此特赦的原本應該一路關到2039年的票警會好 最後我的結論今天有這個機會我要再跟大家說一下今天赦免權是司法救濟外的政治途徑市長你同意嗎"},{"start":13419.64,"end":13419.74,"text":"總統職權讓爭議回歸歷史評價"},{"start":13436.314,"end":13456.962,"text":"正義各有所持但是今天我們讓歷史翻頁當歷史翻頁之後讓總統行使他的特權用特赦的方式用赦免的方式對不起用赦免權進行特赦的方式讓他既不影響既有的司法判決也不會影響到既定判定的沒收的一個執行"},{"start":13457.822,"end":13472.333,"text":"那我們就讓他回歸到讓以後的人來進行這樣的歷史評價我認為這就是我們今天討論大家的關心扁案總統是否行使赦免權的主要意義謝謝兩位謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝那現在我們請吳思耀委員發言謝謝謝謝主席有請次長跟秘書長請次長秘書長"},{"start":13489.808,"end":13517,"text":"委員好委員好次長好請問您擔任法務相關工作多久了法務嗎對我擔任檢察官29年司法人員29年那在國會的工作呢就是來備詢的我擔任過行政職大概我現在算一下7、8年吧所以加起來有30多年的經驗那秘書長您呢我服務40年那來國會這樣執行是一年"},{"start":13519.471,"end":13540.309,"text":"OK我想請您發揮您的法律專業我在新聞媒體上忽然看到這也很不好意思就是我們坐在台上的主席國民黨的委員吳宗憲委員在國民黨的特定委員的司法案件上在國民黨內部的討論裡頭清楚地說"},{"start":13543.852,"end":13570.652,"text":"許曉新涉及被外交部告發妨礙國家秘密的泄密罪吳委員說由於此案是非告訴乃論外交部沒有辦法撤告不該做等檢察官不起訴國民黨應當轉手圍攻進而由其他藍委來逼提告的外交部具狀給檢察官表達外交部希望此案不起訴把壓力再拋回外交部"},{"start":13571.272,"end":13595.885,"text":"也就是有具有法律專業的吳釗偉號召國民黨的立委們來逼迫外交部具狀給檢方爭取不起訴你們都是在司法的領域不管擔任司法人員或者是在國會擔任行政人員這麼多年你們有看過這樣子公然用政治力干預司法的這種作為嗎兩位有沒有"},{"start":13602.652,"end":13619.278,"text":"兩位逼迫外交部具狀給檢方來爭取不起訴這就是逼迫外交部來撤回也就是希望外交部這件事情來來喬一喬不要告了啦你們有看過這種案子嗎"},{"start":13620.589,"end":13625.37,"text":"市長,因為檢察官的獨立自主辦案是司法部要捍衛的嗎?你有看過這樣子的嗎?"},{"start":13640.383,"end":13666.523,"text":"因為這幾條是個案的事實我不算清楚所以不便回答好 不便評論我也不為難你們我們在司法及法制委員會這個會期立下了很多的惡例我看到有不同的委員不斷地針對個案來提出他的立場好 個案不是不能有立場但是我們在過去的討論頂多會看到對於個案來衍生出通案的制度的檢視但是如果對於一個個案來用具體的"},{"start":13669.833,"end":13685.805,"text":"立委的質詢權．立委的國會的權限．來要求．來逼迫．已經提告的政府部門．對於個別立委的所涉案的事情．用施壓的方式．要求逼迫外交部．"},{"start":13686.305,"end":13686.365,"text":"好 下一頁"},{"start":13705.427,"end":13724.818,"text":"回到今天特赦的主題我想說的是其實這是一個假設性的議題因為畢竟我早上聆聽你們的回答市長都沒有收到任何來自於府方的這種指示嘛所以針對測試上是一個假設性的議題而且如果要進行特赦也不知道特赦的對象是誰嘛"},{"start":13725.478,"end":13731.824,"text":"這也是我這幾天我身為黨編我在回應媒體社會各界我也是同樣的立場我確實沒有任何的資訊而特赦就是總統的職權國會應當予以尊重但是今天張偉排這個案我覺得很好我們可以就制度性來檢視台灣的特赦相關從法制面到實行面下一頁"},{"start":13749.72,"end":13766.159,"text":"憲法第40條的授權以及赦免法第三條、第五之一條還有第六條的規範特赦是憲法所賦予總統的專屬職權而且特赦他現罪行確定的案件他受罪行宣告人違憲"},{"start":13767.941,"end":13795.712,"text":"而且他免除刑之執行．非免除其罪特赦．非平反判決．效果也不溯及既往沒收之犯罪所得．並非是特赦的範圍我這樣釐清跟理解制度是不是都正確?次長沒有錯但是特赦範圍另外有一個除了免之執行之外還有罪行也可以免除情節特殊的話是那有其外的例外的規範好下一頁"},{"start":13797.506,"end":13819.785,"text":"我們來看看臺灣歷年的特赦的案例四任總統皆行使過特赦之權蔣介石總統1961、1963、1965三次包括政治犯、包括過失致死罪李登輝總統在1961年特赦了呂秀蓮、許信良等27位政治犯都是美麗島事件罪行無效"},{"start":13821.086,"end":13836.273,"text":"陳說扁總統任內2000年特赦了三個案例那有22人包括公允的領袖包括這個強盜殺人罪2007年陳說扁總統也特赦了百米焦蛋客養乳門這是阿扁總統任內兩次"},{"start":13839.079,"end":13856.495,"text":"蔡英文總統也是兩度一個是2021年特赦了王光祿就是原住民族的持槍狩獵的這個個案2022年蔡英文總統在行使特赦是韓玉萍跟張玉森兩位軍隊加菜精和消餐費的事件我做出這樣的整理代表"},{"start":13857.918,"end":13881.863,"text":"在不同的歷任總統的任內也不關乎任何政黨這就是總統的職權臺灣有行使特赦的經驗只要他依法有據對不對下一頁我們來看看國際的體制我們今天就來論體制我覺得這是一個難得的機會我們可以跟在線上關心的公民一起來看看特赦在各國的制度是如何"},{"start":13882.683,"end":13902.216,"text":"不管是在總統制或是君主憲政的體制下都擁有特赦權在美國總統制下呢總統可依聯邦憲法第二條第二款授予因為總統是聯邦體制所以總統可以對於聯邦罪犯來行使他的赦免或是減刑的裁量權"},{"start":13903.177,"end":13919.114,"text":"但是原則上總統他享有的對象他的發動特赦與否的高度自主權是完全不受國會或是司法體系法院的干擾因為他是聯邦體制所以在美國的州"},{"start":13919.975,"end":13928.861,"text":"州長也會有州的特赦權所以我整理出來在美國的特赦的案例拜登總統2021到2024特赦了24人川普總統2017到2021特赦了144人歐巴馬8年任內特赦了212人小布希8年任內特赦了189人科林頓從1993到2001特赦了396人"},{"start":13950.155,"end":13963.024,"text":"所以總統在總統制的美國制裡頭總統高度自主的特赦權國會或法院都沒有置會的餘地他特赦了都是上百人之多我的整理應該無誤嘛下一頁"},{"start":13965.966,"end":13985.627,"text":"韓國一樣總統制的韓國韓國我們最熟悉他的特赦體制他同樣是憲法的副權然後呢韓國權斗患盧泰瑜金勇三次子金賢哲李明博跟這個蒲景慧他們所犯的相關的不管是軍事叛亂收受賄賂貪污農用公款泄密等等"},{"start":13986.428,"end":13989.61,"text":"也都在1997、1999、2022、2021獲得特赦這是韓國的經驗依據韓國的憲法總統的職權一樣他要面對的是民意的評判但是在制度上"},{"start":14001.975,"end":14009.52,"text":"沒有人可以去挑戰他只能夠尊重總統職權的行使這是韓國的經驗下一頁我們來看君主立憲的國家英國英國的黃江赦免權是君主授予赦免但是實質上是首相或內閣來建議行使所以2019年的一個很重要的案例我在這裡就不贅述了一個當年因為磨砂消防員而判無期徒刑的這個Steven"},{"start":14031.914,"end":14048.885,"text":"他在2019年他協助了倫敦恐怖攻擊事件的這個成功的阻卻了恐攻而獲得女王的特赦君主立憲的國家同樣的透過首相或內閣的建議行使皇家赦免權是得以"},{"start":14049.745,"end":14059.432,"text":"上路而且被尊重下一頁我分享最後一個也是我們最鄰近的日本同樣是君主立憲體制日本的恩赦制度是內閣的許可權由內閣決定天皇來認證"},{"start":14064.736,"end":14087.236,"text":"所以2019年在他們日本的德仁天皇即位在他重要的大典的時候就進行了政令的恩赦然後呢八成是違反道路交通法令430人獲特赦是違反公職選舉法總共有55萬人在2019年日本德仁天皇即位的時候被獲得這個恩赦"},{"start":14090.319,"end":14106.471,"text":"所以在日本也有非常多的施行經驗55萬人獲得特赦我為什麼分享這麼多我希望社會回到制度面來看待體制在台灣中華民國憲法的規範之下特赦就是總統的職權國會只能尊重"},{"start":14110.094,"end":14132.598,"text":"行政部門如果總統有對於要求法務部來研議你們就要來協力如果總統直接行使連你們也不需要有相關的行政作為跟配合所以特赦是憲法賦予總統的專屬職權而停審的案件不是行使特赦的範圍如果大家要聚焦在貶案只能夠針對他偵辦終結的定驗的案例"},{"start":14137.779,"end":14151.53,"text":"而且具體個案未沒收的犯罪所得他不會受特赦效力的影響也就是社會討論比較多的不法所得會不會因為特赦而一併的都赦免他返交國庫呢?並不會"},{"start":14153.852,"end":14171.518,"text":"所以我們就制度來論制度我一直說因為特赦目前沒有發生總統沒有宣誓法務部也沒有接受到任何行政配合的指示目前只是一個假設性的議題對於是不是行使特赦可能特赦的對象是誰我們都不知道"},{"start":14172.438,"end":14195.198,"text":"所以我希望從制度面讓大家再清楚的看到特赦在不同的憲政體制的國家它都是至高無上的國家元首所擁有的權利然後依法行事國會沒有智慧的餘地但是總統必須顧及社會民意的觀感"},{"start":14195.859,"end":14196.059,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝大家"},{"start":14220.455,"end":14226.856,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員那因為我這邊簡單的說明一下就因為在座很多法官、檢察官嘛"},{"start":14227.523,"end":14253.349,"text":"那剛 委員剛有 委員可能要提醒一件事啦有東西弄錯齁 出去會被人家笑齁第一個就是說 它媒體的內容有時候會引申我們的說辭啦 這個我都可以理解啦它媒體報導跟我們說有時候都有一個差距阿第二個齁 因為在座很多法官、檢察官他們很清楚 司法實務上面告訴哪一份之罪 被告或被告的辯護人建議怎麼跟告訴人"},{"start":14254.993,"end":14275.244,"text":"談判．要求告書人徹告或非告書者論之罪．請告書人具狀跟檢察官請求不予追究這個是司法事務的常態這個不是什麼罕見的事情第三外交部不是司法機關你去對外交部的任何作為不會發生政治力干預司法我覺得五權憲法要念一下"},{"start":14276.405,"end":14278.365,"text":"主席好 有請秘書長還有次長委員好次長還有秘書長好"},{"start":14307.931,"end":14324.123,"text":"剛剛前面幾個委員都已經提到了在我們歷任總統的特赦案件大概有八件那在蔡總統任內到目前為止是有兩件的這個特赦案那麼這兩件特赦案呢分別是在一個這兩件特赦案一個是在二零"},{"start":14333.623,"end":14352.234,"text":"21年針對原住民獵人王光祿的獵捕野生動物案另外一個則是2022年針對兩位將官因為微博的加菜金可能會違反違法的餐費核銷案"},{"start":14353.493,"end":14376.897,"text":"那麼我們再看看前面幾任總統他們特赦的案件請問在這8個案子當中有哪一個是針對嚴重貪污、舞弊、收賄的案子來進行特赦的雖然我們現在看到的是報載的新聞那麼蔡總統可能在他卸任之前會針對陳水扁這個進行特赦那在"},{"start":14383.339,"end":14400.899,"text":"剛剛的其他委員的這個詢問當中也知道法務部是說到現在為止也沒有收到什麼指示我想請教就是如果按照剛剛次長的說法是不是合法證明是非常快速的可能一個小時之內就可以做好"},{"start":14403.566,"end":14428.424,"text":"我們要接受行政院指示或總統府指示我們要給予這個證明它這個證明其實就是一個書面而已它製作的時間不會太長所以就是說可以非常迅速的也許短短的幾分鐘反正它就已經是一個定型化的一個表格對它是一個書面沒錯但是它有一個送達的問題"},{"start":14429.204,"end":14441.625,"text":"我們必須要送達給受赦免人因為赦免人法上規定所以另外一個送達之間的問題那也就是說最快最慢時間也是24小時之內就可以完畢這樣子一個作業流程"},{"start":14444.025,"end":14462.231,"text":"在這麼樣子的這個就是按照剛剛的說法其實你們的作業是絕對來得及的就算是蔡總統她在5月19號才告訴你們說請你們要研議要做這個特赦你們這是在非常短的時間都可以做得到的"},{"start":14462.871,"end":14491.75,"text":"那我接下來我想請教一下這也是今天大家在討論到有關於赦免法第3條的這個問題如果說蔡總統會針對陳水扁進行赦免的話那可能會是什麼樣的一個狀態我比較擔心的是說如果說是蔡總統這個依據赦免法第3條的有特殊的情形將罪行都赦免那麼這是不是代表就是陳水扁之後若要出來參選還是有這個可能性的"},{"start":14494.044,"end":14507.996,"text":"跟委員報告：如果罪行都赦免的話那基本上他就他的包括他的此樓公權也會被赦免但是可不可以參選你要看我們的這個我們的這個那個現行的法規"},{"start":14509.376,"end":14529.703,"text":"對,公正人權罷免法規定它有一些26條它有一些例外的規定不能夠參選但是現在它已經沒有任何的罪行了所以就法律的規定上面來講它是極有可能會參選的不無這個可能性所以這也是在講到就是如果說蔡總統她今天行使這個赦免權的話"},{"start":14531.263,"end":14531.943,"text":"我接下來想要再談的就是"},{"start":14549.989,"end":14566.296,"text":"大家也很關心如果說是特赦是依照社民法第三條的前段的前句的規定就是直免除期刑那麼接下來這個四個案子停審中的四個案子要是不是要回復執行的這個問題剛剛秘書長"},{"start":14571.67,"end":14583.579,"text":"一直在談到有關於這是屬於4個案子4個法官是指他審判核心的問題我想請教秘書長所謂的審判核心沒有界限嗎?法官獨立審判的這個權利難道這個權利沒有節制嗎?沒有界限嗎?這個原則上是這個是屬於審判核心那基於審判獨立由個案成審法官"},{"start":14601.933,"end":14622.747,"text":"您剛說了審判核心、審判獨立那我想請教一下你們司法院自己都有頒布各級法院的辦案期限的實施要點那你們這樣做的這個限期法院法官的辦案的這樣的期限要點難道沒有違憲嗎?這沒有侵害到法官的審判獨立嗎?審判核心嗎?"},{"start":14626.003,"end":14639.333,"text":"那個是就一般通常的情形啦那陳雪扁的案子有什麼例外的情形嗎這個就回復到就是個案他的個案到底跟別的案子有什麼不同因為"},{"start":14640.441,"end":14641.641,"text":"說實在話 赦免這件事情屬於總統的憲法上的權利"},{"start":14667.235,"end":14668.416,"text":"陳水扁從2015年保外就醫至今已經展現了38次"},{"start":14693.851,"end":14715.18,"text":"他的保外就業時間長達9年在這一段牢獄外的生活他可以說是多彩多姿啊他既幫助很多的候選人去參台去站台拉票主持電台節目又開直播演講幫他的兒子陳志中市議員的競選肇事"},{"start":14716.42,"end":14717.26,"text":"我必須說"},{"start":14743.499,"end":14764.712,"text":"法務部、矯正署、臺中監獄．你們放任受刑人陳水扁在外面逍遙法外．利用保外就醫的名義．在外面任意地破壞我們司法的程序．你們的作為．不客氣地講是台灣司法之恥"},{"start":14766.345,"end":14781.813,"text":"你們還能堅持司法是社會正義的最後一道防線嗎在你們的眼中還有法律之前人人平等嗎我真的認為現在的司法人員是怎麼樣你們的腦中裡面是只有權貴司法嗎不比較還不覺得說陳水扁的這個行徑有多麼的惡劣你們知道在2020年"},{"start":14794.49,"end":14814.839,"text":"這個所公布的兩公約執行情形第三次的國家報告裡面顯示保外就醫的期間死亡的比例是高達25%也就是有四位保外就醫的這個受刑人有一位可能就會死亡那麼回到監獄的人數大概差不多15%左右"},{"start":14817.342,"end":14831.737,"text":"監察院在2020年的時候其實也曾經做過一個糾正報告也提出這個矯正署也糾正矯正署也就是現在的監獄他啟動保外醫治的材料標準及空間過於籠統模糊"},{"start":14833.9,"end":14851.842,"text":"常常我們看到非常多的新聞報導有講這個受刑人在獄中都已經快要這個生命非常嚴重了然後才送到醫院去醫治在很短大概一兩月的時間可能就會往生"},{"start":14853.775,"end":14880.865,"text":"相形之下陳水扁今天這樣的行為為什麼我們社會大眾沒有辦法看下去看得下去沒有辦法接受就是他已經太偏離常態了本席在就任立法委員的我發的第一份公文就是給台中監獄請他們要提出去探訪陳水扁的種種的每一次每三個月一次的訪視報告"},{"start":14883.123,"end":14891.951,"text":"有做到嗎提不出來連要求最基本的書面報告也沒有打個電話去問說陳水扁你好不好種種的行為這個預發和這個矯正署法務部你們對這件事情實在是怠惰你們已經真的把這個司法的這個"},{"start":14908.209,"end":14932.657,"text":"這個公信力啊司法的這個法律正當程序才在腳底下這是讓人民無法接受的我必須講法院是審判機關司法機關是司法行政機關是一個執法機關不要忘記你們的所作所為代表的都是司法正義法官"},{"start":14936.277,"end":14960.953,"text":"到目前為止那四位法官到目前為止為什麼長期的停審而臺中監獄呢也可以長期的放任陳水扁一直在外保外就醫對大多數的民眾而言是真的早就看不下去了我實在不知道就是你們為什麼這麼樣的放任陳水扁"},{"start":14962.199,"end":14982.935,"text":"我們口口聲聲的希望能夠維持司法獨立維持司法正義可是你們所作所為都是在侵害司法這些年來其實台灣民眾已經對司法的信任度大幅的降低那司法的公信力早已破產"},{"start":14984.582,"end":15010.673,"text":"不客氣的說你們這些執法機關、審判機關難辭其咎我非常期待你們能夠深刻檢討當然接下來還要看是不是真的蔡總統會在他卸任之前特赦陳水扁可是如果他是特赦適指免刑"},{"start":15011.943,"end":15026.898,"text":"的情況之下那4個那接下來4個案子一定要儘速啟動審判否則根本無法向民眾交代好謝謝好謝謝那現在我們請蔡易與委員發言"},{"start":15040.905,"end":15041.225,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15051.982,"end":15080.1,"text":"市長關於特赦這本來就是屬於總統的以總統的權利所以總統來行使特赦依赦免法第三條當然他有不同的法律效果因為赦免法第三條也寫得比較含糊他好像分為兩部分一部分就是說可以赦免其刑那如果是在例外狀況的話可以直接讓刑的讓他整個宣告無效"},{"start":15080.96,"end":15099.396,"text":"所以這個宣告無效是不是代表就是說罪跟刑同時都設這個就很大的法律解釋空間但是我想當初立法在創造這樣的空間的時候應該就是要賦予總統有這樣的高度在面對不同的案件的時候他要行使他的"},{"start":15099.996,"end":15129.396,"text":"這一個豁免的特赦或者是大赦的權利這個權利要大到哪邊那次長我這樣的我這樣的一個對法的認知你怎麼看呢基本上是贊同委員的意見我們憲法的確規定大赦特赦檢訊復權是總統的特別權限另外按照赦免法第3條的規定他赦免的有兩種可能第一個是免除刑之執行第二個是罪行無效"},{"start":15129.876,"end":15130.176,"text":"免除刑執行"},{"start":15152.641,"end":15175.689,"text":"除刑不除罪就是說他的判決當時候這個定讞的判決仍然是存在的只是他的刑就因為特赦後免除刑的執行那這個免除執行他涉及到了沒收的所謂不法所得的沒收那次長這樣怎麼去認定"},{"start":15176.909,"end":15206.073,"text":"他這個當時候判的這個不法所得你們要怎麼認定確定的判決當然是看判決書上面的主文上所載的這個沒收的範圍但是無論是哪一種沒收哪一種特色形態刑制免除也好或者罪行都無效也好他所免除的都是罪或刑但是我們沒收他本身不是罪也不是刑對他過去有憲法法庭有說嘛他不是刑法的一部分嘛沒收又是另外他是一個"},{"start":15206.733,"end":15225.43,"text":"另外的一個概念他是一個獨立的一個處分對獨立的處分他不是刑罰的一部分也不是類刑罰也不是類型所以我現在就有一點疑惑這個疑惑就是說未來在法律適用上也許還很多人會挑戰這一點就是說好我們現在對陳總統去沒收的有針對他已扣押的"},{"start":15226.33,"end":15244.41,"text":"這個已扣押的有可能是在地檢署扣押那好像也有部分是在瑞士扣押在瑞士的那這部分未來是不是要把它再移回來那這部分如果是正沒收的那會不會再擴及到陳總統個人其他的財產"},{"start":15246.411,"end":15273.565,"text":"會不會呢?跟我們報告他當然看我們現在已經確定的部分已經執行完畢了那委員提的大概是還沒有確定那一部分才有這個問題因為已經確定的部分我們都已經沒收的部分都執行完畢了都執行完畢了對所以沒有擴充的問題了對阿既然還沒有確定也就是那是未來的問題阿對那是未來另外的案件對另外的案件他還沒確定我們以確定的案件的該執行沒收的就執行完畢了就執行完畢了對所以也不會有大家那麼那麼"},{"start":15276.026,"end":15296.486,"text":"好像有些人在質疑說阿你是不是這一些以執行的會被他拿回去試案不會以執行完畢就是執行完畢了這個確定的部分幾乎執行完畢了99%執行完畢了留下一點點而已那是執行技巧的問題那執行技巧的問題不是原則上是執行完畢了好那所以回到我說的阿會不會又擴及到陳前總統他個人的財產"},{"start":15299.881,"end":15325.479,"text":"我們除了這個已經執行完畢的財產之外還當時特徵組還有扣押其他的財產對有扣押的嘛那是扣押的其他的那我現在是指說會不會又扣及到沒有扣押的應該不會吧不至於的扣押他有有適用法上的規定在什麼狀態下可以扣押啦要不得為證據之物可為沒收之物才可以扣押並不是說說要扣押就要扣押對就可為沒收嘛所以這應該做很清楚的法律的定義啦"},{"start":15326.34,"end":15341.355,"text":"所以我想因為這件事也要沒發生啦我們都社會會去討論啦那我只要強調就是說因為總統有這樣的高度而且陳總統的案件在當時我知道法務部的很多你們的一些前輩啦這個特徵組類在辦陳總統的時候程序上是不夠正義的"},{"start":15348.081,"end":15369.481,"text":"在審判的過程,司法院會說是審判核心,但是勒,國務紀要費卻跟特別費是截然不同,一個有大水庫理論,一個就是把他完全都是要把他,把他認定都是全部是不法所得,截然不同,所以才會造成一個案件,到至今仍然是藍綠的這樣的一個分際,大家都各詐騙各說各話,我覺得"},{"start":15371.903,"end":15394.503,"text":"這樣因為判決同樣的狀況會產生兩種判決就會讓社會產生爭議這是陳總統案件至今仍然沒辦法解決反而沒辦法解決社會建議所以總統要行使他的高度用特赦來解決這樣的爭議這個是我的一個主張那我最後再用一個短短的時間我要跟法務部呼籲現在中國有一種叫做上頭電子煙"},{"start":15397.445,"end":15416.725,"text":"這個上頭的電子煙,它是一種麻醉藥物叫做伊托米子,俗稱上頭,我不知道為什麼叫上頭,因為中國的命名都很奇怪,它一直被宣傳說這個麻醉藥品可以合法的取代大麻"},{"start":15418.584,"end":15443.755,"text":"合法取代大麻 我想法務部正視這件事情現在很多年輕人 他們都說是抽大麻違法 那我來抽這個我用電子菸來抽這樣的一個麻醉藥品叫做依托米子那用這樣抽的這個依托米子他一樣會造成迷幻而且會有成癮性所以我覺得法務部要去正視這樣的一個毒品在市面上流通而且很多年輕人"},{"start":15444.695,"end":15452.86,"text":"會因為電子煙去好奇去接觸然後去使用這樣的東西我覺得法務部要正視這個事好不好好謝謝謝謝那下一位我們請林楚英委員"},{"start":15460.458,"end":15488.121,"text":"林楚英委員林楚英委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員好那接下來我們麻煩那個翁曉琳委員代理主席謝謝好接下來請吳委員質詢"},{"start":15492.09,"end":15494.352,"text":"那我們麻煩黃次長跟秘書長兩位午安這最前面我還是先底下因為剛剛那個吳校委員他有提到說這個案的部分就是講那個事情我想說"},{"start":15521.803,"end":15550.901,"text":"我在這邊還是幫這些委員上一下法律課好了我想這其實有一點這樣就是說欲加之罪這民進黨從未持窮其實當天的狀況是這樣就是說我們有委員在討論說是不是對於外交部提告許曉欣的案子要叫外交部撤告"},{"start":15551.69,"end":15575.398,"text":"那我就是回說因為這個是屬於非告訴哪一論之罪只有告訴哪一論可以撤告非告訴哪一論之罪的處理方式就是被告請告訴人或告發人那邊具狀給檢察官不予追究這不是就一般司法實務的處理模式嗎我想在座很多法官、檢察官以前也是這樣處理所以我不瞭解"},{"start":15577.099,"end":15594.371,"text":"說這個跟干預司法個案有什麼關係我覺得他們把這個法律諮詢啊把他講成是這個司法干涉我覺得這個不是笨就是壞那這是我對王定宇委員還有吳思耀委員的就本件事情評論的見解是這樣"},{"start":15597.773,"end":15618.63,"text":"更何況這個外交部在案件中是屬於當事人你叫請當事人去具狀表明不追究這跟政治力介入司法有什麼關係其實我也是聽不懂好吧那就回到我剛剛那個結論就是我覺得不是笨就是壞啦我想他們應該也不會不懂這個道理"},{"start":15622.016,"end":15641.87,"text":"因為他們剛委員有請教兩位這個問題那我就跟兩位說明一下狀況是這樣這是一個很常見的司法實務的處理模式我今天因為我們的主題還是回歸到有關特赦的這個部分那我想請教一下"},{"start":15645.885,"end":15671.664,"text":"剛剛你們也有回覆過其他委員了啦就是目前蔡部長或是將來要接任的政部長目前都沒有接到府方的指示對吧都還沒有嘛那我先跟各位請教一下就沒收的部分假設今天真的有特赦的話對沒收的部分會不會有影響"},{"start":15674.108,"end":15699.416,"text":"公文報告,因為沒收部分他不是行也不是從,不是主行也不是從刑嘛,那我們特赦的範圍當然不會基於這一個非刑的,不會基於非刑的部分,所以他不會受到影響。好,那我們就提一個,好,因為我想說這是人民很關心的部分,所以我想說透過這法務部這邊跟大家說明一下,因為這個將來執行的話是法務部那邊要執行嘛,"},{"start":15700.39,"end":15706.132,"text":"好所以呢我們看一下111年憲判制第18號其實他已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":15707.321,"end":15730.742,"text":"沒收心智實質上是不真正溯及既往也就是說他並不會說不能沒收所以這邊要跟各位就跟那個民眾我們說明一下即使今天總統對陳水扁以前的案子進行特赦也不會影響到犯罪所得沒收請問一下這個結論對嗎?沒有錯好 謝謝"},{"start":15734.525,"end":15762.515,"text":"那尤其是其實在判制第18號現判制第18號也有講到其實這個不法的所得其實沒有一個信賴保護的問題所以這個不會因為被特赦而去沒收那我再請教一下目前你們有沒有研究一下就是說社會上面對於這個到底要不要特赦這個大家的共識是什麼"},{"start":15764.771,"end":15778.97,"text":"各位報告那特赦他是總統特有的職權嘛所以這邊如果總統沒有發布的話沒有發動的話我們也沒有辦法我們要尊重總統的職權我們不可能主動的去做民意的調查你們有沒有先預作準備因為既然有這個分審出來"},{"start":15779.551,"end":15806.185,"text":"我剛剛答詢的時候其實有提到就是說法務部就相關的任何的法律上的爭議我們幕僚座位上一定都會收集相關的意見或做法律上的爭點的整理包含今天特赦這個議題因為社會矚目那之前也有媒體揭露所以法務部他事實上有做相關的法制的整理是沒有錯好好謝謝不好意思我這兩天那個喉嚨不太人不太舒服好那"},{"start":15807.825,"end":15822.808,"text":"那這個部分可能也是要麻煩你們我不知道說府方會不會去請問你們這個相關的建議就依照以前以前就是曾經有過的特赦經驗那個府方會不會去詢問法務部請法務部提供相關的見解"},{"start":15824.028,"end":15848.086,"text":"或是建議按照社民法第6條規定總統府的確是可以另轉本部做相關的研議這的確是可以那我這邊我可能跟各位說明一個東西其實我自己對於陳水扁要不要特赦我覺得當然我們是尊重總統的想法但是我對於目前的制度我比較有一點意見就是說"},{"start":15849.918,"end":15879.248,"text":"因為陳水扁他現在是保外就醫嘛那包括剛剛也有那個委員羅志強委員有提到高雄監獄受刑人當初在搶槍自殺前他們其實提出來是說為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫但是監所內有比他嚴重非常多的卻沒有辦法保外就醫其實這個在司法面前應該人人平等啊那這公平性到底在哪裡我想法務部就這部分能不能說明一下"},{"start":15881.124,"end":15883.025,"text":"法務部是受這些醫療報告拘束還是"},{"start":15908.215,"end":15935.16,"text":"根文報告他其實是臺中監獄然後就交由這個這個矯正署來做決定的其實也不是到法務部是好沒關係那矯正署是法務部底下的單位嗎那我請教一下醫療報告是居宿矯正署還是得參考當然是參考的這個事實認定的一個基準之一那如果是參考的話其實現在有個問題就是說如果是參考那"},{"start":15936.089,"end":15958.322,"text":"因為他現在客觀的狀況有時候民眾沒有辦法沒有辦法覺得滿意嘛因為他可以上政論節目可以上台演講可以開直播然後可以走來走去這個讓人民覺得他是不是跟我們想像中病情嚴重到要保外就醫這個還是有一個差距嘛"},{"start":15958.991,"end":15970.215,"text":"那當我們我提就是我剛所以我剛先請教的前提是這些醫生的醫療評估是拘束那個預證預證處還是"},{"start":15973.786,"end":15995.514,"text":"只是得參考如果是得參考的話那今天認定的責任就在就在貴部了當然就是按照我們相關的規定他要提出醫療證明他是這個申請展言的要件之一嘛他這個要件當然他自己判斷準否當然是要由全責機關做決定他不會他只是要件之一而不是拘束"},{"start":15996.254,"end":15996.795,"text":"司法院秘書長、法務部長"},{"start":16018.476,"end":16032.913,"text":"他是前總統他的保衛就醫的標準跟一般人就不一樣我想不是一般人民不能接受我們自己司法官出售我們也不能接受所以有人說要不要給陳水扁特赦我跟你們講與其讓他繼續傷害司法"},{"start":16034.835,"end":16054.654,"text":"那不如你總統你要特赦你自己去背政治責任所以說我甚至我會覺得是這樣但是我的論點還是覺得這個保外就醫就是讓人民沒辦法相信嘛那我自己看我也覺得有點莫名其妙這是我表達我個人的意見這也不是國民黨的意見那後面還有一個東西請教"},{"start":16056.687,"end":16082.043,"text":"因為之前我在質詢的時候我有問過部長一個問題3月26號的時候我對蔡部長有去提到死刑執行規則他在訂定上面好像有一點問題那我不知道因為當時部長是跟我承諾在326的時候跟我承諾說他要去修改這個死刑執行規則那我不知道這個部分他有沒有修改"},{"start":16083.917,"end":16103.53,"text":"各位報告那執行死刑規則的部分我們有做因應那個憲法訴訟法的修正之後我們有做一些文字的修正這個我們有公告了我們有預告我們有預告這個有預告進行預告程序不是是因為我當時在質詢326的時候在質詢的時候我剛剛說從死刑案件執行實施要點"},{"start":16104.631,"end":16130.239,"text":"到執行死刑規則的時候他有個但書沒有抄過來那當時部長跟我說他會把他這個部分他會修改因為這個是法務部就可以改的那我想請問因為一直到現在兩個月過去了我還是沒有看到法務部改我上網去看還是舊有的規定我說這個規則他有預告還沒有完成法規修改的程序大家進行預告程序他有修改"},{"start":16131.482,"end":16149.162,"text":"但是還沒有修改他進行預告程序所以這部分是已經修了嗎因為法規修正他有立法作業程序他現在已經有預告程序預告程序完之後我們要評估外界或民間的意見再決定如何的修正請教次長說你的意思是說"},{"start":16150.003,"end":16177.74,"text":"已經有著手在修了只是還沒有完成這個甚至我們也聽了一些民間的意見一些Face或反Face團體我們都把他找來對這個修正什麼意見後來我們決定一個版本之後我們就有預告預告完之後當然又會有不同的意見出現了那法務部要再重整所有的意見再決定怎麼修這個條文那謝謝長因為很多人都說啦就是司法權對於一個人下了死刑判決"},{"start":16178.641,"end":16203.953,"text":"但是法務部這邊呢他本來應該要執行他卻用規則裡面的一些一些東西去讓這個死刑執行一直延後一直延後那我是希望說不要讓外界認為說我們沒有刪除死刑但是我們就用行政權去實質廢死我希望說不要法務部的作為不要讓外界有這個誤解就是覺得說好像"},{"start":16205.066,"end":16230.362,"text":"法務部總是配合上面政治人物的想法要達到實質廢止所以我們條文也不敢刪除實行那我就給你搞個實質上不執行實行就好所以已經好多年沒有執行實行了嘛跟委員報告這部分事實上這個要點從民國94年都一直延續過來我們沒有做實質的修正後來因為建議行刑法修正之後我們跟著把它改成這個修正成為執行實行規則實質上內容是沒有動的"},{"start":16233.384,"end":16249.436,"text":"所以不是說法務部近年才把它增加一些障礙去不執行死刑這要點從90年代一直到現在次長這個部分這邊你可能你可能沒有去注意到3月26號我對部長的質詢再麻煩次長你回去看一下326我對部長的質詢"},{"start":16251.977,"end":16270.908,"text":"當場部長也是說我直接秀給他看兩個的比較那部長也覺得這有問題他說好他回去修改他是這樣跟我說的當天的錄影你們都還可以調出來看確實當時執行要點有一個但書沒有抄到那個執行實行規則去導致當事人他可以用"},{"start":16272.165,"end":16291.893,"text":"一直不停的申請大法官解釋而且同一個理由一直申請也沒事那所以當時我就跟部長說那你這個要不要把它改掉既然你已經現在都用執行死刑規則那你是不是要把它加進去部長當時跟我說好但是我現在看了兩個月還是沒有改這個部分但這個東西是法務部就可以處理的"},{"start":16293.684,"end":16320.202,"text":"不需要送到立法院刪讀所以這可能麻煩次長回去看一下了解委員這個問題意思我也充分了解是不是同意原因的問題讓死刑犯可以用同意原因不斷的來拖延執行死刑嗎對因為事實上我跟委員報告事實上我剛跟委員提的民間的我們做一些公民的意見的時候光這個議題我們也討論過民間也是有不同的意見也是有好沒關係那所以我要跟你們講的就是"},{"start":16321.284,"end":16336.542,"text":"執行要點實施要點已經很清楚的說同一原因他不會讓實行執行延後但是呢在執行實行規則的時候這個但書不見了沒有超過來那在我們以前念法律"},{"start":16337.903,"end":16355.991,"text":"舊法到新法如果有一個東西不見了我們都認為這個是造法者他是民事的就是這一個東西不要了所以在到新法的時候他不會移植過來所以當時我問部長就是那你們今天的意思是同一原因繼續就會一直玩嗎那部長也說好那他們回去會研擬要這個部分要修改"},{"start":16356.499,"end":16383.735,"text":"那我是我今天就要問這個地方因為現在兩個月了因為我看到法務部並沒有動作那再麻煩次長就這部分處理因為我可能我之後還是會繼續盯著這個部分好那這部分是109年那個監獄刑事法修正之後的確在同意原因那個單書沒有把它抄進來那當時有當時時空背景那現在委員提的但是會不會因為同意原因造成申請人不斷的來申請那後來我們有我剛才跟委員報告我們有不斷的尋求公民意識來解決這個問題"},{"start":16385.256,"end":16414.135,"text":"那委員剛提的意見我們回去會再做處理好 謝謝市長好 那就這樣好 謝謝各位 謝謝兩位我想因為今天有很多的委員都對於這個陳水扁保外就醫展延38次的這個核准許可都想要知道這個到底這個38次核准是怎麼核准法是不是可以請法務部提供這38次的每次的許可函然後以及他的相關的這個許可的理由給我們委員會"},{"start":16416.944,"end":16432.714,"text":"跟委員報告他那個形式上的理由當然可以但因為內容他涉及到特種個資就是他個人的診斷證明啦所以這部分如果涉及到特種個資的話我就沒有辦法診斷那形式上他的理由我們當然可以給貴委員會這沒有問題"},{"start":16433.855,"end":16440.158,"text":"因為這部分我剛剛有跟上就是詢問嘛如果醫生的報告是拘束預證署那我們當然沒話說是醫生要負責任可是他今天的報告來只是參考那今天法務部就要負責任那剛剛次長有說其實這個是參考"},{"start":16463.251,"end":16463.631,"text":"那下一位我們請紅夢凱委員發言"},{"start":16495.522,"end":16496.543,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們次長以及吳秘書長來次長"},{"start":16506.264,"end":16528.388,"text":"陳水扁 把外就醫38次呂彩虹縣彩虹縣彩成變紅彩彩虹縣彩成變紅龍越來越紅我們想請教一下當初有說陳水扁把外就醫有4個條件4步哪4步各位報告他詳細內容我記不起來不能參加政治活動不能參加政治活動"},{"start":16529.549,"end":16554.429,"text":"那還有一些不能參加媒體不能參加媒體對 類似另外兩個就不是很清楚記不記得不能上台那現在參加了多少次他的確是有參加 對他的確有參加對 但是 市長親口承認他的確有參加政治活動不是 他是不是歸屬於政治活動或對政治活動的你們對政治活動的定義是怎麼樣"},{"start":16557.421,"end":16573.327,"text":"這個不是法務部的職權啦這怎麼不是法務部的職權呢?當初講說四部不上台、不演講、不接受訪問、不碰政治現在踩到了紅線踩到已經大家都覺得說這紅線已經虛設虛設到一個離譜誇張的地步一個台灣兩個世界我們中華民國是法治國家嗎?"},{"start":16580.782,"end":16593.021,"text":"法務部有存在必要嗎?各位報告他是臺中監獄然後經由矯正署的這個暫居暫編矯正署、臺中監獄不是歸我們法務部法務部所屬沒有錯是啊那我們本席現在講嘛"},{"start":16594.4,"end":16622.771,"text":"不上台、不演講、不接受訪問跟不碰政治你剛親口講了他有沒有參與過政治活動?有他有沒有去演講過?有他有沒有參加過訪問?他不只參加訪問他變成 搖身一變變成主持人還訪問別人有沒有隨便查陳水扁主持次長不要活在平行時空"},{"start":16624.336,"end":16650.422,"text":"陳水扁主持YouTube頻道178部影片專訪了178位人員其中包括有黃捷我們的立法委員有陳廷飛我們的立法委員有林佳龍我們的總統府秘書長綠營的政治人物幾乎都上過他的專訪178次"},{"start":16656.031,"end":16678.28,"text":"這根本就是一個受刑人保外就醫4部的條件完全虛設然後他每個禮拜上傳他的影片每個禮拜上傳影片178部打臉法務部178次然後我們好像沒看到畫外之地高潭市也沒有這樣子那麼離譜的狀況市長你會不會覺得委屈啊"},{"start":16685.939,"end":16710.84,"text":"我現在罵你我現在質詢你其實我不喜歡罵因為我覺得官員來這邊如果能夠就事論事我們予以尊重但是這件事情已經是讓全國國人可能都看不下去不只是受刑人嘛很多我已經講到啦憑什麼陳水扁受刑人可以保外就醫條件如此寬鬆那一般受刑人申請個保外就醫那麼的困難保外就醫的條件是什麼"},{"start":16713.27,"end":16741.516,"text":"自死率高的疾病衰老或客觀事實無法自理生活病情嚴重、肢體障礙嚴重病情複雜難以控制以及罹患法定傳染病是不是哪一個藥店符合陳水扁受刑人現在符合沒有那我們讓他保外就醫38次讓他四處在外面趴趴走然後你的四部完全就已經是退縮到不能再退縮了現在已經大家覺得習以為常了你知道嗎"},{"start":16746.448,"end":16770.431,"text":"那再來我們都還沒有講到特赦所以說本席也講啊我今天看了你們的一個報告本席某種程度上是支持總統有特赦權要特赦你就特赦讓總統要負起這個責任不是讓我們一個受刑人在外面趴趴走然後挑戰法律誤誤以為台灣法律是他們家開的或是明明講出了這些標準然後就完全不遵守"},{"start":16771.581,"end":16790.335,"text":"那現在總統最後一個禮拜啦他司法問題要用政治解決他也不願意解決啊目前又傳出說這根本只是側風向根本沒有打算要特赦把探索三欲要留給新任的總統賴清德那我們就看啊賴清德上任之後第一個公文要不要簽特赦有沒有這樣的資訊因為很多委員都已經詢問過有沒有去評估"},{"start":16800.68,"end":16821.82,"text":"瞭解 研擬 總統如果要簽特赦的話 後續的流程要怎麼做各位報告 我今天講了很多次了 到目前為止法務部沒有做到沒有嘛 對不對 是 所以這代表是說是不是這就是現在又在測風向我們講說八年總統 總統貴為國家元首我們為什麼法令有一個規範 會是讓總統有這樣一個特赦權"},{"start":16825.728,"end":16849.084,"text":"某種程度上這是國家元首才有的權利但連這樣子他也不願意來去負責或去來去面對然後讓所有執法人員變成是我們的法律完全不用去遵守178部影片打臉法務部178次不覺得很可悲嗎?很悲哀嗎?"},{"start":16851.089,"end":16861.056,"text":"我們的法在某些特定的權貴某些有權力的人面前根本就是被當兒戲在地上踐踏紅線變成紅毯紅毯變成紅龍最後司法院秘書長秘書長我只提一個問題啊司法改革在蔡英文總統這八年任內變成是國人最不滿意的第一名你有什麼想法"},{"start":16882.141,"end":16892.35,"text":"確實在人權保障、審判獨立這一部分包括勞動事件處理法、少年事件處理法"},{"start":16896.479,"end":16919.521,"text":"有改進、精進的地方還是很多有改進還是有改進的地方還是很多我們有精進、我們有進步的地方還是很多像整個人權保障、審判獨立我們都進步了進步然後就還是敬佩莫作還是最不滿意的第一名"},{"start":16921.195,"end":16948.771,"text":"那這個就就這個各種民調有他各種民調的調查方式啦那我們 秘書長請容許本席提醒一下至始至終過去八年蔡英文執政從過去到現在每一次司法改革一定是前三不滿意那現在八年過去了還是首列不滿意第一第二名是經濟、能源相關等"},{"start":16950.922,"end":16975.386,"text":"所以本席現在只想要利用這個機會真的再請秘書長這邊好好去了解為什麼國人真的對於我們台灣的司法沒有信心那如果一樣如果我們的法令我們的司法在有些特定權利人或者是現在是誰當家誰執政就可以有特定人士在外面趴趴走是法律無誤的話國人當然沒有信心當然沒有信心"},{"start":16977.145,"end":16999.5,"text":"這就是本席在今天特別要給法務部跟司法院的一個忠告要讓國人有信心要讓國人認為說我們真的是一個正常法治國家請從捍衛法律人的尊嚴開始做起謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在請王宏威委員"},{"start":17006.226,"end":17011.41,"text":"謝謝主席我請吳秘書長還有黃次長好秘書長、次長好次長我想請問一下因為剛才你回答前面幾位委員都是到現在為止法務部沒有收到來自於行政院的任何的就是要求特赦的言議"},{"start":17031.403,"end":17032.264,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":17046.866,"end":17066.544,"text":"那我現在說如果是按照我們的工作時間的話所以我們大概只有短短的12個小時或13個小時如果有可能的話你們法務部接受到行政院給你們的指示然後你們趕快做成言議再回覆給行政院行政院再回覆給總統我這樣講的程序對不對"},{"start":17068.686,"end":17071.867,"text":"是可以的那當然這樣的話就會變成假使在520之前蔡總統要特赦陳水扁那就要由總統府一肩擔起所有的責任是吧"},{"start":17096.633,"end":17122.731,"text":"各位報告這是總統的特別的權益對沒錯即使我們按照說明法給原議他也只是一個但是如果對啦但是如果交給行政院行政院再交給你們的話那當然你們就要共同的去負擔那未來後人講起這件歷史的公案你們也一起丟臉而已啦是不是各位報告我們法務部就是提供法律上法治上的建議"},{"start":17124.953,"end":17148.853,"text":"那法律怎麼規定怎麼做那是一個狀態是一個事實其實陳水扁該不該被特赦其實非常明確的就是到目前為止他還有四個案子還在審查中就根本就還是停止審判那我要特別講到就是說其實特赦陳水扁他當然會變成一個高度的政治性的事件對不起把那個放上去"},{"start":17149.674,"end":17173.006,"text":"特赦陳水扁讓我們認為就是他的條件去跟過去幾任總統包含李登輝陳水扁自己本身還有馬英九他們都有行使他們特赦的權利但是我最近呢我看到應該是今天齁我看到這個聯合報的他們的他不是在報紙上應該是他的這個付費的一個評論我覺得他很有意思"},{"start":17178.649,"end":17182.77,"text":"他把過去幾任總統特赦的對象把它整理出來因為我就說所有你去行使特赦你都要未來去讓外界去檢驗讓後人去檢驗比如說李登輝他特赦了誰呢他特赦了美麗島的政治犯以現在來看的話他雖然也是一個政治性的特赦"},{"start":17201.875,"end":17213.939,"text":"但是呢大家會覺得至少對於臺灣的整個的民主政治跟政黨政治他是有正面性的一個功能好那陳水扁自己本身他的特赦呢他曾經特赦過百米炸彈客這個其實當時在社會上也有非常多的討論另外呢他還有去特赦他是因為有19個人他因為宗教因素他拒服兵役被判刑他也是在他的特赦範圍"},{"start":17231.104,"end":17257.278,"text":"我覺得這些都是我們再回在若干年後10年20年後我們再回來看一下他是不是值得被特赦的一個對象好我們再看那麼蔡英文總統他自己本身也行使過特赦權他曾經特赦過獵人王光祿先生因為當時他他被被稱之為孝子獵人因為他這個是也是跟他原住民族的一個生活文化有關好所以"},{"start":17259.179,"end":17287.881,"text":"今天把這些把它列出來之後就會認為說總統他有這樣一個特赦令就是有這樣特赦權利但是他的一個特赦應該是針對不管一個多元文化或對於台灣的民主、法治的精神或人文關懷的精神是有所注意而有所交代的如果是特赦沉水扁說實在我剛才不是在講嗎希望"},{"start":17289.102,"end":17306.021,"text":"但我希望蔡總統不要在最後的時候去特赦陳水扁他們就算去特赦陳水扁的話那我相信我若是法務部委員希望你根本都不要來問我意見否則的話我還要跟你共同負擔這樣的一個責任所以特赦陳水扁如果是有交換條件的話"},{"start":17307.583,"end":17321.889,"text":"那麼對於司法來說對於司法來說就是你用一個司法的一個特赦然後交換你在政治上不管外界所講的如果蔡總統你今天去特赦陳水扁是不是去報答他過去對你的提攜之恩或者還是說有什麼樣的政治的利益交換這都是我們不願意看到的"},{"start":17332.193,"end":17351.879,"text":"那今天其實我們已經在520已經在倒數計時特赦沉水扁最近被甚囂塵上的傳者可是這也代表我們現在整個的在社會輿論方面其實我包含看到有一些綠營的民意代表也不認為這個時候是特赦沉水扁的好時候"},{"start":17354.62,"end":17374.614,"text":"所以社會沒有共識所以其實特赦陳水扁對於一個樹立就是總統他有這樣的一個特赦權利對台灣的未來也沒有任何的貢獻的時候其實我們會希望蔡總統在最後倒數計時的時候不要去做一些錯誤的事情"},{"start":17375.475,"end":17375.935,"text":"鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":17405.551,"end":17408.521,"text":"主席、各位委員請法務部次長請黃次長"},{"start":17413.84,"end":17440.939,"text":"委員好黃次長好是委員好是常務的次長所以這個我也常擔任過常務副主委這位所以我們作為一個公務人員這個要事先的去針對這個可能性譬如說風向提到說可能會特赦我們有必要的時候我認為這個以這個陳水扁總統的案子"},{"start":17443.755,"end":17473.115,"text":"有必要主動尤其是新的部長上任要主動讓他知道因為高層總統他不會找你嘛對不對他會去找部長啊找行政院長來討論啊所以要提供正確的一個資訊今天都有提到蔡總統這個特赦王光祿王光祿當然要被特赦因為中華民國的法律"},{"start":17474.489,"end":17500.109,"text":"無論是野生動物保育法或是槍砲彈藥刀戒管制條例都不符合憲法以及原住民族基本法的規定所以當然要特赦這個是為什麼呢我們就講你可能比較不清楚我讓你知道原住民的類人"},{"start":17502.087,"end":17528.506,"text":"這個是這個是我們的傳統文化之一而我們的槍炮彈藥槍炮列槍啊我們的列槍啊現在的槍炮彈藥導致管制條例以及所授權定的辦法所能製造的所能持有的自製列槍啊不如日記時代呢"},{"start":17529.793,"end":17557.419,"text":"不如日記時代所以他當然是有違憲法有違原住民族基本法像那個野生動物保育法也是一樣也是一樣有違憲法有違原住民族基本法當時我們一直在這樣講原住民族一直這樣子講果然呢要謝謝司法院"},{"start":17559.207,"end":17582.227,"text":"這個相關的法官判決無罪要謝謝檢察總長替我們這個提出那個叫什麼是在審嗎市長在審對提出在審這個就是說最後你看無罪判決果然是無罪判決"},{"start":17583.684,"end":17601.483,"text":"所以這個是一個應該要做的所以我們陳總統到底到底是不是可以特赦當然作為一個公務人員就應該事先就要整理好資料"},{"start":17603.825,"end":17624.743,"text":"尤其是新的部長要上任新的行政院院長要上任總統一定會諮詢他們的意見他不會問你的意見所以你必須要把相關的意見要先給部長部長給行政院院長來先瞭解總統在徵詢的時候就可以有一個很好的"},{"start":17627.04,"end":17627.14,"text":"這個部份這個"},{"start":17653.824,"end":17679.47,"text":"陳水扁總統他其實是我的老長官我以前是公務員對不對我在延民會當這個副主委但是因為畢竟是涉及到法律法律的事情還是要依法還是要依法辦理現在當然不是你了過去的法務部沒有依法辦理我們陳總統"},{"start":17681.534,"end":17694.264,"text":"他現在可以在外面是用什麼?保外就醫嘛對不對?對嘛有符合嗎?不符合保外就醫嘛因為可能不是你管的這個業務"},{"start":17696.024,"end":17700.868,"text":"現在在矯正署所主管的這些監獄然後我們的多少的這些受刑犯"},{"start":17722.472,"end":17746.703,"text":"在建議裡面然後多少需要常常去醫院的尤其是在台中不是有直接跟醫院有連結的培德培德對不對到底有多少人我們就算那個人數就好了我們就算那個人數對不對他們都還要在那邊對不對他們的案子都還很小呢他們都要在那邊"},{"start":17748.248,"end":17776.712,"text":"我過去曾經關心過我第8屆立委的時候曾經關心過一個原住民就在台中培德結果呢他要申請保衛局又准了陳水扁總統就可以准結果呢他沒有多久沒有幾個禮拜就過世了所以他天差地別啊對不對所以這個部分也要讓"},{"start":17778.787,"end":17793.721,"text":"總統了解啊我們對他已經不錯了法務部說我們對他已經不錯了他還可以直播還可以當主持人對不對所以不要輕易的使用要這樣建議總統好不好這是總統的職權謝謝那我們下一位請陳培鈺委員"},{"start":17803.061,"end":17830.609,"text":"陳培宇委員陳培宇委員好下一位請賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員楊瓊英委員請楊瓊英委員發言謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請次長請次長"},{"start":17836.124,"end":17861.802,"text":"市長好傳出總統蔡英文女士要特赦有意要特赦總統陳水扁那發言人呢也曾經表示立場是是不是啊各位報告這個是假設問題法務部到目前為止沒有收到正式的指示要不要特赦這件事你還沒有收到指示但是這個是新聞時事啊"},{"start":17865.601,"end":17881.951,"text":"所以你沒有了解這個狀況按照赦免法規定他是總統得令交給本部來做研議啦到目前為止得赦免法裡頭總統得交給法務部來研議那到目前為止520今天是5月"},{"start":17884.895,"end":17914,"text":"今天幾號啊?你也不知道喔?五月十五嘛你不要緊張嘛因為五二零之前好像大家都神經都繃緊了啊那有沒有可能你到目前為止有沒有收到?沒有,法務部沒有收到正式的法務部到目前為止還沒有收到總統令轉要研議的相關的指示令轉你們得去研議總統得嘛這是他的權利嘛你們還沒有收到沒有"},{"start":17914.42,"end":17942.486,"text":"但是你們沒有說到為什麼沸沸揚揚一直這麼說那是不是總統府也可以赦免法本來總統的權利嗎他可以自行宣布啊是不是赦免的確是總統的職權沒有錯總統的職權他可以不透過你法務部按照赦免法規定當然最後研議的部分不見得要交到法務部但是他後面要發給證明給這個受赦免的人的時候必須要進入法務部"},{"start":17943.998,"end":17954.314,"text":"對 但是他可以自行宣布嘛不用請你們研議嘛那是得嘛 對不對那你認為有沒有可能在520之前就來一個宣布然後由你們去執行之"},{"start":17957.503,"end":17962.667,"text":"根據憲法第40條的規定總統依法行使大赦、特赦、減刑及賦權的權利這個特赦的規定在聖明法第3條裡頭更說明受罪刑宣告之人經特赦者免除其刑之執行"},{"start":17987.265,"end":18008.854,"text":"執行其情節特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效這是我們特赦那到目前為止你說你們都還沒有收到總統府給你們要去研議所以本期要請教特赦在法制的設定上司法的意義是什麼請做說明"},{"start":18010.854,"end":18011.915,"text":"也想要傳達給社會什麼樣的訊息?"},{"start":18028.935,"end":18051.76,"text":"就是司法救濟他有一定的程序走完之後那總統的職權他就司法救濟無法救濟這個是整個流程那就是說如果在520之前真的總統府來一個這樣子的一個宣告你認為因為未來如果真的宣告你是要法務部去執行那你認為會給社會什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":18056.839,"end":18073.412,"text":"當然今天很多委員也提到這個問題對我們確定的判決效力會產生一些影響社會會不會覺得確定判決的效力受影響這件事情會有所關注我的說明也是畢竟特赦本來就憲法規定的權利本來就會影響確定的判決這個權限本身存在的定性上就會如此"},{"start":18081.71,"end":18087.377,"text":"所以你認為本來就會影響而且這個這麼大的一個事件我們討論到現在將近4分鐘的時間你認為會不會在520之前就來一個宣告"},{"start":18096.887,"end":18097.127,"text":"免刑不免罪"},{"start":18115.261,"end":18144.481,"text":"特赦有兩種 剛才跟委員念的聖明法第三條一個可能性是免除刑之執行 另外一個是罪行無效所以有兩種可能性 看總統選擇哪一種 如果他要行使特赦權的話所以有兩種 因為社會大眾都很 有一點模糊也就是如果真的特赦 那一些停審的案件會不會繼續來審查 那分為兩個部分第一個可以連停審的部分全部"},{"start":18145.642,"end":18149.266,"text":"執行跟無罪就特赦這個部分但是停審的部分呢他按照我們訴訟法規定該進行就進行還是要進行因為本行一定要"},{"start":18165.283,"end":18168.527,"text":"透過麥克風給社會大眾去了解因為最近這一兩個禮拜大家嚴肅的去討論這個問題甚至有說海角7號的錢要不要追回等等等等這一些事件"},{"start":18179.759,"end":18202.429,"text":"所以我們也希望讓社會大眾不要有疑慮說明清楚說明清楚所以我們剛剛說的停審如果真的特赦包括免刑以及免罪就是完全特赦嘛齁但是停審的部分還是依照法律的程序在做是不是沒有錯是是如此嗎因為特赦它的效力不會它的射程不會及為判決確定的對"},{"start":18204.289,"end":18228.096,"text":"為判決確定的是不在這個範圍之內所以我們也給社會大眾去了解清楚才不會大家非常質疑那今天是5月15號大家5月20也是520是一個期待的日子在這個過程當中會不會有任何的變化我們就拭目以待我們總是希望社會能夠安定民眾他能夠有"},{"start":18229.056,"end":18254.503,"text":"有一個安全感讓社會大眾呢大家都以國家為基準是嗎?是謝謝委員好 謝謝最後一位省發會委員改題書面質詢所有登記方案委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或與書面答覆者請相關機關請入宵個別委員及本會"},{"start":18258.581,"end":18268.269,"text":"委員審發會所提書面執行列入紀錄、刊登公報．並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"15911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15911","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db43dc8870a7b167e20f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be41e1754b31945b06b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:43:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15134,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 - 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案。」"},{"start":860.111,"end":861.473,"text":"文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":969.633,"end":970.35,"text":"本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具、「農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":1041.971,"end":1069.474,"text":"文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":1139.787,"end":1140.756,"text":"修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":1180.452,"end":1181.439,"text":"修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":1628.097,"end":1629.07,"text":"本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":1763.509,"end":1765.391,"text":"報告全體會出席委員12人以足法定人數"},{"start":1771.667,"end":1797.956,"text":"好我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄請宣讀立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年5月8日星期三星期三九十一分至十二十八分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員陳廷坡委員等14人列席委員陳培育委員等16人列席人員農業部代理部長陳俊記"},{"start":1799.637,"end":1824.402,"text":"公平會副主委陳志明及相關人員主計總處專委黃子涵﹑法務部參事林豐文﹑主席邱昭吉委員易營﹑報告事項宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定討論事項一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等三案。一、農業部涵為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢証該部農業管理預算凍結500萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":1829.083,"end":1847.552,"text":"討論事項合併尋答委員陳冠廷說明提案要旨,農業部代理部長陳俊記報告後,委員陳廷飛等16人提出質詢,均由農業部陳代理部長紀湘蔚與及其答覆,登記發言委員處部在場走外區域經已發言完畢,尋答結束,委員黃珊珊、邱議員及"},{"start":1847.992,"end":1853.158,"text":"邱議瑩等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":1863.39,"end":1885.836,"text":"農業部農業發展預算凍結五百萬元書面報告案決議第一案至第三案均同意動之擬具報告提報院會二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具《農產品市場交易法》第35條條文修正草案案決議一、第35條條文保留送院會處理二、本案審查完具擬具審查報告提報院會討論"},{"start":1887.935,"end":1893.881,"text":"需交由黨團協商並推請邱召集委員議員院會討論時做補充說明。散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1910.259,"end":1911.02,"text":"修正草案案。」宣讀完畢"},{"start":1934.636,"end":1961.182,"text":"好,那麼我們本日議程所討論事項農村再生條例第二條第七條以及第十五條及修正草案我們總共共計有三個版本現在依照院會所交付的順序請提案委員來做提案說明第一位我們請張嘉俊委員張嘉俊委員張嘉俊委員不在現場我們請邱議瑩委員請做提案說明"},{"start":1963.154,"end":1979.651,"text":"你不要說明齁,那你來幫我代主席一下,我來說明一下,謝謝。好,我們今天請楊瓊瓔召委來做提案說明。"},{"start":1982.124,"end":1987.527,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊瓔發言本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人我們有鑒於環境批辯跟極端氣候的這個新型影響導致臺灣農村面臨了永續發展的一個挑戰而且農村再生基金實施到目前為止也即將用盡那會影響到農村再生整個發展性的一個計畫那我們為了要推動"},{"start":2008.919,"end":2012.641,"text":"農村更新社區公約以及農村韌性發展等政策。」所以我們提出了農村再生條例第七條以及第十五條條文修正草案以接軌國土計畫新治理的"},{"start":2025.206,"end":2049.994,"text":"制度全面實施來加速推動農村的轉型與發展,強化了極端氣候的農村調適能力。」那也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門大家來支持因為我們知道在政府對於農村發展的地區過去的政治核心都是在於農業、農地以及農民的照顧這三個部分"},{"start":2052.755,"end":2058.018,"text":"發展在政策上經常會被忽略,以致於農村鄉發展的失衡問題越來越嚴峻,轉型發展困難。我們看到,從民國108年,我們台灣永續發展目標演繹,"},{"start":2068.865,"end":2093.049,"text":"到109年本定的國土計劃法再將114年要全面的來落實實施雖然目前的國土計劃法似乎還會再延但是我們一定要未雨綢繆這個是非常重要有鑒於農業部他必須要負擔起國土功能分區那農業發展地區的永續發展的這個治理權延逸"},{"start":2096.97,"end":2123.512,"text":"執行農業地區永續發展的規劃跟政策,其中農事地區也就是臺灣最主要的農村地區範圍迫切需要建構一個農村整體性的永續發展規劃跟政策的制度來強化因應全球氣候暖化以及環境變遷的制度適應的能力。」"},{"start":2124.773,"end":2135.095,"text":"才能夠接軌未來所謂的國土計畫新國土治理制度的一個變革所以我們非常的希望能夠實際行動來支持這個我們的農民真正的由政策性整體性的這個規劃也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門大家來支持謝謝"},{"start":2157.903,"end":2160.706,"text":"謝謝,那我們提案說明再請張嘉俊委員。謝謝主席"},{"start":2169.966,"end":2185.36,"text":"我們都知道,農村在過去數十年來逐漸勢微,那現在年輕人寧願到都市打工,送FoodPanda、UberEat也不願意留在農村務農。但是政府明年又要推動新的國土計畫法,讓農村再也難以變更。"},{"start":2191.005,"end":2194.187,"text":"2011年農村再生條例執行之後那其實當初提案的時候是1200億當時本席包括我們的楊瓊瓔主席也是大力的支持要從1200億增加到1500億那沒想到經過了這麼多年我們"},{"start":2209.236,"end":2216.8,"text":"又來到了就是已經花完了這筆錢也希望說讓農村能夠真正翻轉命運讓農村再生計畫能夠繼續推動因為呢農村再生計畫也是未來能夠順利推動國土計畫法的一環那農再條例通過之後全國的各縣市致力於帶動農業產業發展"},{"start":2235.111,"end":2259.824,"text":"包括雲林作為農業大縣更是積極的投入於農村社區之再生營造在農村再生的計畫支持之下進行農村景觀美化維護農村重要生態以及打造地方特色產業文化逐步提升農村的居住與人文品質活絡在地的經濟活動"},{"start":2261.425,"end":2264.827,"text":"那十餘年來雲林總共合訂了2001個案那在雲林縣449個社區當中已經有305個社區參與培根計畫150個社區完成培根計畫課程之後已經合訂農村再生計畫取得農村再生社區的身份"},{"start":2286.902,"end":2301.495,"text":"這是目前全台灣農村再生最多的縣市這也是本席當初推動農村計劃法通過之後每一村每一村的下去做說明會那時候我記得說明會說明了100多村才得到這樣子的結果那在偏鄉呢"},{"start":2309.707,"end":2326.446,"text":"就是在偏鄉與都市的資源不均衡的現況之下農再基金是農村培育人力與在地產業發展的一個重要資源然而十餘年來基金的經費已經幾乎用完"},{"start":2326.906,"end":2350.851,"text":"因此本席提案修改《農再條例第七條》擴增基金規模由1500億增為3600億並於十年內分年編列預算以幫助農業縣市農村發展翻轉農村的形象讓更多的年輕人願意耕留農村謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2356.794,"end":2363.421,"text":"接下來我們請農業部長陳俊濟就委員提案版本做報告。"},{"start":2374.458,"end":2403.098,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早。那今天大院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會召開審查。那張嘉郡委員等19人提出了農村再生條例第二條及第七條修正案。那邱議瑩委員等17人及楊瓊瓊委員等18人提出農村再生條例第七條及第十五條修正案等三案。那本部就農村再生執行的一個情形及委員修法的方向予以報告。那請各位委員"},{"start":2404.099,"end":2415.752,"text":"不定指教。」以下用簡報的方式跟各位做說明。整個農村再生在民國99年公布以後"},{"start":2417.557,"end":2435.398,"text":"在相關的再生條例裡面規定政委應設置農村再生基金1500億並在十年之後分年編列預算在一百年度開始成立農村再生基金辦理相關的一個業務整個相關的農村再生基本上"},{"start":2435.939,"end":2455.638,"text":"他分為到目前為止是執行到第三第四期那第一期分別是在一百零一年到一百零四年第二期是在一百零五年到一百零八年那第三期是在一百零九年到一百一十二年那第四期從一百一十三年到一百一十六年那這個計劃以一月經行政院來核定"},{"start":2457.182,"end":2474.684,"text":"那整個的一個計畫推動重點那第一期的經費大概經營用的大概276億左右那主要的重點是在農村再生的一個推動那當初因為計畫一開始最主要是在人力的一個培育的方面跟一個社區的一些小型工程"},{"start":2475.465,"end":2499.631,"text":"在第二期開始,我們擴大地方政府的參與,農村的再生,加強農村各項基礎設施的改善,同時也朝著產業面來提升農村產業的競爭力,實際合編的是287億左右。第三期經費是建構在第二期的推動成果,我們更持續推動地方創生。"},{"start":2501.671,"end":2518.63,"text":"過去的點去連結成一個區域網絡來活絡整個農村的一個經濟跟強化農村的友善的一個生態那第四期是從今年開始113年到114年我們編列了432億那幾個推動重點包括地方的經濟的一個活絡那整個生活"},{"start":2520.832,"end":2533.542,"text":"發展環境與生活空間的一個改善,那同時也珍惜整個社區的文化跟知識的一個創新,那更重要就是我們導入了公司協力的一個夥伴關係來促進整個農村的一個發展。」"},{"start":2536.471,"end":2564.771,"text":"過去三期的計畫裡面從農村的培根、農村產業的輔導一直到整個年度再生計畫的一個執行我想成果非常豐碩然後包括也很多的社區的參與那也合訂了大概一千多個農村的農在社區然後同時將社區裡面的這些好物能夠上架到各個平台第二個部分抱歉"},{"start":2566.56,"end":2591.941,"text":"舊委員所提的版本在這邊提出說明。那張嘉靖及丁學忠等19人提案的版本裡面總共修了兩條是修正的第二條及第七條。那第二條的部分是將本來的行政院農業委員會改為因為我們改制的關係變成農業部。那這個部分我想是應該我們會做這樣的一個修正。那第七條的部分他最主要是將原來在"},{"start":2593.28,"end":2601.419,"text":"條例裡面設的一千五百億的經費提高到三千六百億,這個部分是張嘉俊委員的一個提案。"},{"start":2602.571,"end":2629.378,"text":"那邱議瑩委員跟楊瓊瓔委員的版本這兩個版本大致相似那我們並同說明那最主要的修正是在第七條裡面從原來的1500億提高到4500億然後在經過修正以後在20年內分年來編列然後特別是在條例裡面有特別強調就是政府逐年編列預算來撥入那"},{"start":2632.159,"end":2648.596,"text":"第七條的部分那個現行的版本是比較籠統那在修正的版本特別提到就是說整個農村的再生必須要有一個全國性的農村的再生的總體計畫的一個擬定跟他的一個審核跟執行"},{"start":2649.196,"end":2665.476,"text":"那有了全國農村的再生的總體計畫以後,那各縣市政府的部分在依據這樣的一個農村總體的計畫,在年度上去檢討農再計畫的一個執行。就是說有全國性的也有縣市級的一個農村再生計畫的一個擬定。"},{"start":2667.618,"end":2683.073,"text":"那整個計畫裡面也更明定了相關的計畫必須在相關的土地利用、農宅、生活、生產、生態、文化、景觀及空間規劃裡面去做適當的一個配置跟支出,然後提供一些"},{"start":2684.335,"end":2705.581,"text":"整建獎勵相關措施。」等於說把現在目前農災基金比較含無的空間更具體化。這個是在第七條的一個修正的部分。那第十五條的部分也是特別去強調中央主管機關因應農村再生的政策方針就國土計畫土地的利用"},{"start":2706.461,"end":2733.079,"text":"以及因應氣候變遷一定要去訂一個全國的農村再生的一個總體計畫然後再依據這個農村全國性的農村再生總體計畫各直轄縣市因應這樣的一個指導原則就相關縣市的這些生產環境與農村景觀去引領引進鄉村的農村轉型發展事業所需然後指定相關的地點跟實施範圍"},{"start":2734.44,"end":2751.1,"text":"那並維護整個生產環境的一個完整性然後在固定的一個時間必須要擴大其農村建築的需求者可以並同前項計畫去通盤檢討改善這是第七條跟第十五條的一個草案的說明"},{"start":2751.781,"end":2765.96,"text":"那本部的一個立場在這邊做幾個說明第一個部分是第二條部分因應組織改造我們的機關名稱由農業委員會行政院農業委員會改變為農業部那這個部分我想本部同意修正"},{"start":2767.196,"end":2793.623,"text":"那至於修正草案的第七條裡面那不同的版本裡面他上修農村再生基金設置規模至三千億三千六百億或者是四千五百億那本部的意見最主要是依據財政紀律法的第五條跟第七條他所提到的就是有關所提的法律徵修政府的稅收的時候需要有明確的"},{"start":2795.29,"end":2809.279,"text":"指明彌補資金的來源,然後同時也規範了立法機關在制定修正法律法規的時候不增訂固定經費額度或比例的一個保障。那基於這樣的一個財政距離法"},{"start":2811.667,"end":2811.687,"text":"案。」議員"},{"start":2834.051,"end":2856.661,"text":"一百一千五百億在一百零九年已經並撥補完成了那至一百一十三年二月底我們的基金的餘額大概還有四百九十七億接近五百億那這個部分我想也滿足目前一百一十三年到一百一十六年的四百三十二億的的一個經費來源就是我想也在這邊跟各位委員提出了"},{"start":2857.741,"end":2885.072,"text":"整個修正草案第七條主要調整了農村再生總體計畫的一個規劃,擴增基金的用途,跟增加農業活化調適轉型的一個場域。這個部分我想也符合我們現在農村再生條例的推動的一個方向,而且我們也已經積極的在進行,所以這樣的一個條文使整個農村再生的一個條例更為明確化的一個表列,本部並沒有其他的一個意見。"},{"start":2886.132,"end":2910.546,"text":"那第十五條的部分,徵定了全國農村再生總理計畫的擬定的部分。那相關的條文裡面,調整了農村規劃的體系,從全國性的作為再調整到整個發展社區的機制跟它的指導的一個作業的一個機制。那這個機制我想會對於以後我們農村再生計畫的一個執行會更為有利,所以本部也競表同意。"},{"start":2920.563,"end":2949.208,"text":"最後我想跟各位委員報告其實農村負擔的糧食生產的重要功能也包括環境、生態、棲地等還有文化價值的維護透過農村空間的規劃引導我們農村的公共建設強化社區的機能同時跨越整合相關的資源互補打造以人為中心的一個宜居、宜業、宜遊的一個幸福農村我想是我們農業部的一個很重要的政策我相信也是委員一直想要共同來推動的"},{"start":2949.968,"end":2950.248,"text":"以上報告。"},{"start":2978.973,"end":3000.945,"text":"再一個就好了。主席、各位委員、各位在座的先進大早安。我想農村再生條例的主責單位為農業部。國防會受邀列席,我們有兩點說明。針對農村再生條例的第二條、第七條及第十五條的修正草案,我想我們尊重"},{"start":3001.385,"end":3015.877,"text":"主責部會農業部的意見﹖剛才其實部長也有充分的說明那第二點要報告的就是說其實國發會在今年的二月我們的委員會奉其任願交易其實我們已經通過了農村再生"},{"start":3017.655,"end":3022.496,"text":"則實施計劃,計劃期間是113年到116年,總計劃經費是432.2億元,目前農村再生基金到113年2月的剩餘基金還有497億元,仍足以指引。」以上說明。"},{"start":3041.533,"end":3069.953,"text":"我們行政院還有主席總處有做書面報告那這個部分我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那本日議程討論事項我們合併詢答委員詢答前我們依慣例主席來做幾項的宣告各位委員發言的時間本委員會6分鐘必要時加1分鐘非本委員會4分鐘我們上午11點截止發言登記首先我們請第一位的林黛樺委員請做詢答"},{"start":3071.926,"end":3072.348,"text":"有請部長我們請部長"},{"start":3081.903,"end":3109.217,"text":"部長聽您的這個報告啊這個農村再生條例那你們農業部的立場是什麼是要再撥補多少錢呢在您整個的說明我聽不出到底你是支持三千再撥補三千六百億呢還是再支持四千五百億呢那我個人不太能夠接受說好你要等新政府上任之後因為你是繼任的部長所以你們對於過往的執行狀況"},{"start":3112.399,"end":3139.256,"text":"這個所有的優點缺點那我需要再用什麼樣的除了調整相關計畫我需要多少的金額或者是三減然後總體金額說你們不可能沒有一個評估啊你才能來說服我們立法院啊那我們立法院認為說欸這個應該其實您看的還不夠精準啊我們再把民運回饋給你們啦所以今天的這樣的討論會才有意義啊所以我不曉得您的主張是什麼"},{"start":3139.816,"end":3165.874,"text":"是在拖補多少錢?這才是重點啊。我跟委員說明喔,就是委員所提的版本去增加到3600億或4500億,那我們本部的立場非常明確,就是說依現在目前的財政紀律法,就是在立法院的相關提案的一個版本是沒有辦法去增加這樣的一個經費的上限。那相關的經費的一個預算的擬定是由行政單位...啊所以你主張什麼?"},{"start":3166.775,"end":3173.879,"text":"你認為說好,我們就只剩下110,按照你的報告是112、113,110幾年就已經只剩下900多、400多億欸。一年你們的支出是100億,你們在農村支出一年平均100億,所以你現在只能再撐4年欸。"},{"start":3184.204,"end":3189.627,"text":"是所以你的意思是說都不要再補了是嗎?不是我剛才也特別強調就是說部長對立法院的對話要務實不要實問虛答我沒有實問虛答所以你告訴我你認為主張你們內部認為最低基準是多少還是說你覺得應該委員提的都太少了我應該撥補五千億這我們當然也可以接受因為有什麼什麼什麼的計畫調整因為有這個地球暖化"},{"start":3210.279,"end":3233.912,"text":"有氣候變遷所以我們應該再加強什麼我相信每個委員藍綠立委都會接受。好啦這個部長這個就您就要調整一下您作為部長的一個一個角色實問虛答這件事情在現在立法院你只會吃虧而已好我直接進入今天本席的一個這個討論的主題地球暖化"},{"start":3234.452,"end":3236.854,"text":"只會讓農業災損成常態也就是我農業的補助也會成為常態我這邊有幾個提綱跟您來討論第一個全球暖化造成的農產品產量減少第二是針對現階段現在4月5月"},{"start":3254.509,"end":3274.389,"text":"這當中我的農民是多麼的苦。以及面對氣候變遷我除了補助之外政府應該有全新的政策的規劃所以本期有一個具體的要求我們因為氣候暖化所產生的農產品產量減少以台中梨山水蜜桃為例梨山是全台灣水蜜桃最大產量的"},{"start":3275.39,"end":3298.255,"text":"一年也只有一收,每年七、八月為採收期,現在這個時候四到五月是結果的時期,但農民因為氣候異常,水蜜桃只開花不結果,結果率僅約一成,導致水蜜桃的產量減少,農民收成是銳減的,現在出乎可能少五成,更可能達不到四成。"},{"start":3298.735,"end":3306.981,"text":"好在看到我的高雄除了臺中的這個梨山水蜜桃外我們高雄有多項的農產品喔水蜜桃、青梅、荔枝、芒果也因為氣候異常導致我的開花率、結果率都下降造成收成銳減再加上我又有猕猴大軍的投資包括南麻夏的這個水蜜桃、六龜的芒果、內門的鳳梨跟"},{"start":3324.594,"end":3343.682,"text":"發辣果園接招彌猴入侵果園,農民被迫放棄採收,損失更加慘重。我忙碌了一整年,是徒勞無功,心血覆株流水。我們的《農業天然災害救助辦法》的第四條規定目前僅針對颱風、逢風、龍捲風、豪雨、淫雨、冰庫、冰暴、寒流、旱災及地震所造成的災害"},{"start":3352.426,"end":3356.709,"text":"給補助請問農業部可否將從後病害動物入侵所造成的損害納入補助範圍呢?這是第一個問題好那我們的這個農民再如何的苦呢?這個都是報紙所報"},{"start":3371.519,"end":3395.141,"text":"農業部23萬補助防喉,農民職業這是不夠的,而且講到說喉會跟我們人鬥。所以就本席了解,農業部跟我們高雄市政府是有編列經費補助防喉設施電網的,但是對於水蜜桃整個種植面積廣大一甲以上的農民,架設費用高。"},{"start":3396.562,"end":3412.727,"text":"電費高、設備成本高、補助不足以根本這樣的補助是不足以應付的,是一筆不小的開銷,而且盒子很聰明,不想辦法鑽漏洞,水蜜桃一樣是招偷吃啊。另外一個報導說花蓮有民眾誤觸電網,慘遭電網啊。"},{"start":3417.448,"end":3445.497,"text":"這個顯現我們電網的防制效果有限而且民眾因為誤觸請這邊我就要請農業部研擬更合適的防堵方法讓農民跟動物能夠共存好面對這樣的氣候變遷我除了補助之外本席一再的強調應該要有全新的政策規劃我們來看左邊這張圖高雄市的南麻小的桃我們的水壁桃的作物從這個是你們自己的官網喔"},{"start":3446.457,"end":3448.798,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文"},{"start":3469.87,"end":3476.357,"text":"全球暖化氣候升高已經即是不爭的事實,農產品的產量逐漸降低,農業部所推廣的智慧農業你們都集中在哪裡?叫做自動化,而且你的自動化也是在這個農機小型農機的一個自動化的推廣"},{"start":3486.528,"end":3502.9,"text":"雖然可以省時省力大面積的種植,但是呢,針對氣候問題持續的惡化,農產品收成不佳,這個不會是因為你自動化的關係會有所改善。所以面對極端氣候的影響,農業部應將智慧農業的重點放在智慧化。"},{"start":3505.902,"end":3520.823,"text":"精準化來提升產能以協助農民來因應其變化。」更重要的我一再強調我整個農業的決策整個系統都應該要智慧化這已經今天再加上這一次我至少是五次以上在質詢這個議題了"},{"start":3522.145,"end":3527.668,"text":"農業部應該參考本席之前所質詢的掌握種源基因定序為主軸以調適科學為架構調整農食找出適應的物種針對耐寒、耐熱、耐旱等不同極端氣候的情形發展出不同的物種技術以令農民來因應未來的氣候我就舉一個案例我在高雄市的我們這林園這個養那個石斑魚"},{"start":3548.581,"end":3550.482,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆第十五條條文修正草案："},{"start":3569.452,"end":3580.534,"text":"我把A魚跟B魚的整個他的組裝八袋全部查出來他的基因整個查出來發現到A他能夠耐吃那生肉率高B他耐寒我就把這兩個物種這個這個能夠做繁殖了所以產生出來的你知道嗎這個我這個在地的養殖業者一個青農他願意接受我這個建議願意接受我這個煤盒他現在銷到東南亞"},{"start":3598.218,"end":3599.087,"text":"品質多好啊!"},{"start":3600.179,"end":3602.78,"text":"所以這就是基因定序的一個物種啊我們的我敢講目前在動物在植物或者這個養殖業他是不受契扣的我們是可以給予他契扣因子而讓他有優生學所以這個本席所講的智慧農業掌握基因定序這件事情以發展調適科學講的其實就是我們農業的優生學"},{"start":3630.691,"end":3645.057,"text":"農業的優生學才能去適應我的現在的極端氣候變化這樣的政策你應該重新規劃才對所以我這邊幾個兩個重點請農業部參考本期之前所質詢的掌握種源基因定序的概念從源頭掌握"},{"start":3646.618,"end":3673.265,"text":"以調適科學調整農食找出適應的物種研究可因應極端氣候的經濟作物耐寒耐熱耐旱以因應氣候變遷除了補助之外政府也應該有全新的政策規劃讓智慧化農業的智慧化精準化協助農民在氣候變遷時代也能夠種植跟豐收另外你補助也要讓人民有感啊"},{"start":3674.082,"end":3676.784,"text":"除了發展這個東西之外改變我們的這個物種之外我氣候變遷常態農業部對農產品的摘損也應該化被動為主動你們現在農業處被動的等待地方政府承包好然後呢應改為主動要求各縣市政府在第一時間農村產生的時候"},{"start":3694.235,"end":3698.757,"text":"你就應該跟我中央這個聯繫啟動災損評估針主動補助光是我這一句話就是你智慧化農業決策的體制你就要導入了然後確保農民的生計不要等到民怨沸騰的這個媒體報導了然後我們各黨各派的立委"},{"start":3715.565,"end":3729.798,"text":"一直給你打電話好你政府才去補助連解決民怨你都要預先啊所以你在積極的找出你的調適科學的新物種以及你要補助當中化被動為主動才是你這個繼任的部長該有的這個價值啊"},{"start":3732,"end":3759.54,"text":"好部長請回應非常謝謝委員的一個建議那事實上委員所提到的我們百分之百認同就是未來我們在新的政策裡面已經確定了用智慧韌性的這樣的概念把相關的精準農業跟智慧農業去導入到整個的一個產業體系這第一個部分第二個部分就是委員所提到的基因定訊正確的名稱應該講分子育種因為分子育種是在農業上叫分子育種在我們產業這個基因定訊不是只有針對業針對我們人"},{"start":3761.701,"end":3778.224,"text":"所以這是中央研究院、中央研究院的學士我們在做積極的討論所給我的意思我瞭解就是說我們在產業上面不管在農作物也好或在水產品也好我們都用分子育種就精準的這些您所講的這些描述的育種方向我們會共同朝這個方向"},{"start":3778.865,"end":3781.807,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案案》案。"},{"start":3797.355,"end":3813.283,"text":"那法規還是法規面啊?你們如果你認為蟲害、病害跟動物入侵是有的,那至少我就依這個辦法,各縣市有所依據啊。不是,這個要先確認齁,是不是納入。所以你要不要研議啊,好不好,帶動研議好不好。好,那部長剛才有回答,要研議齁,請研議好給,送交給我們委員,謝謝。接下來我們請邱議瑩委員請做詢談。"},{"start":3829.538,"end":3833.681,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳部長我們再請陳部長部長早部長早部長我們今天討論這個農村再生條例的這個修法那有幾位委員相對都提出了農村再生條例的這個條文的修正草案部長我讓您看一下到底農村再生做一些什麼"},{"start":3858.696,"end":3873.776,"text":"這是我們高雄市農業局在今年二月份他舉辦了2023高雄農村再生社區成果發表展那我們大概做了一本書這個大概是他的目錄農村再生計畫呢"},{"start":3876.089,"end":3903.156,"text":"我們的岐山糖廠社區曾經得到了金牌農村第一名。那這個社區其實很好玩,就是說這一些包括鄭宇軒執行長他們去創造了一個體驗物產的直賣所,然後把盈餘的20%回饋到基層的老人照顧裡頭。所以糖廠社區算是在做老人長照跟做社區營造跟做農村再生算是佼佼者。"},{"start":3904.276,"end":3923.162,"text":"讓您再看一下六龜新發社區這個是88風災的受災最嚴重的一個地方但是我們現在把台灣的特種山茶把它做研發我們做成了六龜原生山茶不只這個社區得到了農村領航獎我們把六龜山茶送到國外去比賽還獲得比利時"},{"start":3925.944,"end":3940.323,"text":"ITI的國際評鑑風味最高評價三星獎,他們去年一共拿到了8顆星星,這個社區做了三查。其三的原副社區因為都是老人家,那這個地方過去的老名字叫做愛堤,"},{"start":3941.604,"end":3958.709,"text":"所以我們就把80歲的這些老人開了一個咖啡廳讓這些老婆婆們可以利用在地種植的咖啡來開設一個咖啡廳當然是我們在美濃這兩年最有名的水準市集"},{"start":3959.409,"end":3972.113,"text":"每年大概都超過了三萬人以上去逛這個市集。部長我要讓您看的就是說農村再生這過去的十年來我們在地方做了這麼多我現在只單舉在本席的選區裡頭的幾個特殊獲獎的"},{"start":3975.134,"end":3993.348,"text":"那剛剛您提到這個我們知道這個經費大概在四年之後就會沒有了所以政府的立場上面會不會持續執行農村再生的計畫那農業部的版本有沒有什麼時候會送到立法院來部長"},{"start":3993.939,"end":4008.891,"text":"好謝謝委員我想也謝謝委員分享這樣的一個農村再生的就至少在高盆地區的一個成果那事實上農村再生他背後所的經費的資源就是我們的農村再生的一個基金那這樣的一個基金的確"},{"start":4010.292,"end":4024.857,"text":"讓我們有更多的資源能夠投入在農村的各項的一個建設包括基礎的一個環境建設還有人文景觀的一個持續那更重要就是透過一些現在導入的這些綠色造物也能夠讓農村的這些"},{"start":4026.161,"end":4028.383,"text":"條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":4048.736,"end":4065.121,"text":"同意我們的相關的方案的時候,那方案未來也是4年一個方案。那就像我們這次的11到113我們也是抱怨,那抱怨提供以後,那如果基金未來經費不足的時候,那相關的行政院就會另外籌措預算來提供這樣的一個經費。"},{"start":4068.244,"end":4084.173,"text":"雖然本席的提案裡頭是有直接明列希望你們把這個基金預算增加到4500億但後來我翻查了一下這個大概跟我們的財政紀律法其實是有一點相違背所以這個部分本席不堅持"},{"start":4085.134,"end":4106.465,"text":"但是我要您承諾的部分就是說農村再生的計劃其實是會持續做然後經費的部分農業部也會持續的來跟行政院爭取我想行政院對於這樣的一個農村發展的計劃應該是要給予全力的支持跟配合這整個不只是"},{"start":4107.185,"end":4125.263,"text":"在整個農村甚至整個農宅、農村的景觀、地方的創生、青年返鄉的就業等等其實都是要一併考量規劃但是部長我還要再跟您提醒一下過去做農村再生通常都會做這種彩繪牆、塗鴉牆"},{"start":4128.346,"end":4145.661,"text":"整個農村的牆面就畫一大堆但是畫來畫去都是畫日本的卡通人物版權有沒有拿到不知道三、五年後整個褪色又很醜也不知道要不要補或者是怎麼補然後這個跟比如說哆啦A夢或者是這個哆哆囉這個龍貓跟這個社區的連結是什麼沒有"},{"start":4150.265,"end":4153.871,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":4165.171,"end":4192.509,"text":"委員所秀的這個東西應該是在早期在大概民國100年那個一開始啟動的時候那時候大家不是非常清楚所以很多彩繪就不管怎麼樣現在還是有欸對但是現在齁我們整個的一個彩繪跟裝置藝術其實地方的一個重要的裝置藝術跟彩繪的部分它是在在特定的地區而有的特定的我們的台灣的文化的導入對你還是要跟地方去做連結啦比如說"},{"start":4194.07,"end":4195.071,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":4214.082,"end":4214.102,"text":"案。"},{"start":4235.908,"end":4236.449,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文"},{"start":4251.5,"end":4267.495,"text":"還有一個呢就是我們去收集那個蟲巷這個荔枝村巷的這個蟲卵片最近好像把這個政策停掉了可不可以說明一下除了我們的整個荔枝村巷的房子除了剛剛講這幾個以外還有沒有什麼新的方法"},{"start":4268.523,"end":4297.463,"text":"我跟委員說明就是當初有在跟地方政府在合作就是收購這個荔枝村巷的軟片它的葉片的下面那個時間點剛好是我們在相關的荔枝村巷的貧富小峰的物理性防治還沒有很健全而且還沒有很推廣的時候我們是搭配這些同軟的一個收購那現在貧富小峰本身的一個技術性已經非常成熟了所以我們現在是用化學防治"},{"start":4298.243,"end":4317.618,"text":"跟我們的物理防治共同,那現在最重要的就是不管是化學防治或物理防治一定要區域防治,如果個別的農田去防治的時候那個效果不顯著所以你們會結合當地的縣市政府、農業局或者是農會、或者是產消班?對,用區域防治的方式共同來啟動"},{"start":4318.739,"end":4345.885,"text":"我最後30秒齁我要講的就是說剛剛講到那個荔枝春香你們很多的防治方法最近呢聽說你們林業署多了一個防治方法就是把它抓來然後炸來吃喔不然這個有一點本末倒置啊我知道很多的泰國籍的勞工會喜歡吃荔枝春香其實在我們農村地區很多他們都會找泰籍的勞工來幫忙抓荔枝春香但是吃荔枝春香是他們的文化不是我們的文化"},{"start":4346.485,"end":4368.197,"text":"那我們要去講求這個病蟲害的防治不應該去推廣所謂的叫大家來了解說怎麼樣去炸荔枝、春香然後可以來吃喔這個是嚴重違法的行為啊即使做病蟲害防治我們都不應該自己帶頭去處罰所以部長這個可能也要請你們多多的督促我也覺得不恰當所以我已經有跟他們講"},{"start":4369.398,"end":4387.004,"text":"我們在病毒化防治不能把那些蟲變成一個料理,這樣的話會造成一些外界的一個困擾。是,好,所以這件事情我覺得可能還是要督促下去請以後的這些單位如果在做病蟲害防治的宣導的時候,有一些基本的原則還是要能夠拿捏好。了解。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們繼續請賴瑞榮委員請做選檔。"},{"start":4401.496,"end":4409.733,"text":"好謝謝主席請陳部長我們再請陳部長好部長好"},{"start":4411.614,"end":4435.139,"text":"我們今天處理農村再生條例那其實大概比較關鍵的條文是在第七條的部分這過去大概政府其實有在條文上訂了編了1500億但是其他大概有些委員們希望來提高這個額度那我先問一下過去雖然編了1500億但是從101年開始其實分了四次都有編列進來都有補進來我看到了這個從300多億實際200多億200多億400"},{"start":4442.942,"end":4467.561,"text":"276、287、420,到了今年的二月也再補了432億進來。所以這個到了2027年應該是都沒有問題。所以我想關鍵不是在這個額度多少,關鍵是在政府是不是有不斷的撥補進來。你有撥補進來的話這些金額就都夠用。所以其實從這樣看來其實關鍵的問題不在於把1500億往上調升多少,而是在其實政府要不斷的持續撥補進來。"},{"start":4469.062,"end":4482.847,"text":"我根本說明齁就是以現在目前因為農村再生剛好因應外界現在目前的這些極端天候的挑戰所以我們更積極的去讓農村去復育的過程中大概每一年平均大概是大概100億上下"},{"start":4484.608,"end":4484.628,"text":"案 。"},{"start":4505.353,"end":4507.834,"text":"事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":4524.218,"end":4541.002,"text":"對,因為我想農村再生計畫的一個成果我想大家都看得到,所以我相信這樣的一個經費的未來的提出的時候,我相信應該會得到一個支持。對,因為你們部裡面也是希望能夠維持這樣的1500億這樣的規模就可以了,其實也不會影響到再生能源這個基金的問題嗎?對。"},{"start":4543.959,"end":4565.89,"text":"那再來我請教一下其實另外一個當然也是如果假如最後強行要通過這樣的一個修正案的話因為原先的這個1500億的部分其實是在民國99年來通過的來通過的然後訂定的這也是行政院提出來的版本那現在如果立法院沒有"},{"start":4566.99,"end":4568.631,"text":"檢查：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會議：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":4590.364,"end":4605.274,"text":"財政紀律法第七條提到,立法機關修正法案的時候不得增訂固定經費的額度,這個其實也違反財政紀律法的一個相關的規定,部長同意這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":4606.495,"end":4627.654,"text":"對,我們針對委員所提的版本,那我剛才說過了,農村再生的確是需要經費去支持的,那經費可以透過我們行政的一個體系向行政院去報院去爭取。那委員如果直接在條文裡面直接明定的時候,那我們也提出了依現在目前的財政基地法是不可以這樣做的。"},{"start":4628.194,"end":4643.58,"text":"那我想因為委員版本我們絕對尊重我們只是把現在我們所了解的就是說如果這樣編列的話是違反相關的財政紀律法那行政單位是沒有辦法去預約這樣的一個財政紀律法去給予支持或給予任何的一個comment"},{"start":4643.76,"end":4667.462,"text":"那問一下部長,最近新的國會起來之後,很多案子幾乎不太尊重行政院的看法,包括行政機關的看法,強行通過,甚至於把一些預算部分大幅的拉高起來,甚至於對整個財政上的問題也不做考慮,這個是違反財政紀律法甚至有違憲的疑慮的,那如果立法院強行通過這樣的法案的話,"},{"start":4671.194,"end":4690.966,"text":"這個農業部這邊會怎麼處理?我想如果立法院通過這樣的一個版本的話我想行政院應該會有一個比較明確的對策因為基本上立法院通過這個法案是違背相關的這些規定嘛那違背相關的規定的話應該會有一些他們特別的一個處置方式來處理"},{"start":4693.859,"end":4709.193,"text":"我希望這個還是要積極的做說明我們希望立法院大家在妥善的溝通希望在尊重行政院跟整個體制下的時候因為經費都一定是夠用那關鍵是在政府的撥補不在那個額度的提升額度提得再高政府不撥補其實還是不夠的啦所以我覺得關鍵還是在撥補我們也希望待會來討論的時候能夠做一個處理"},{"start":4712.912,"end":4714.933,"text":"公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格公糧收購價格"},{"start":4740.425,"end":4742.307,"text":"邱議瑩等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文"},{"start":4757.024,"end":4783.866,"text":"這個同時也讓更多人種水稻那水稻面積一增加產量一增加整個市面上的這些糧價就往下降所以農民反而以長期來看三五年以後農民的收入不見得會維持在那樣子那第二個部分是公糧只佔我們所有的稻米裡面的百分之三十事實上是百分之七十是由民間的自營糧來收購的所以怎麼樣去提高民間的自營糧"},{"start":4784.907,"end":4805.319,"text":"的一個價格產地價格那才是我們應該要去注意的所以農業部現在目前已經有一個陸陸續續在規劃一個比較完整的一個政策去想辦法去提升我們的自營糧的這些支撐自營糧的價格那這樣子也才能夠讓我們的稻農真正能夠確保他的收入"},{"start":4806.159,"end":4832.213,"text":"我希望所有的政策的目的是希望給農民長遠的一個好的受益跟效益但是這個也要審慎如果短期性的因素投入了反倒短期看來好但長遠不見得好甚至於現在我們的整個糧食甚至稻米的一些狀況整體如果沒有把國家資源做一個好的一個配置的話我希望這一塊部長這邊能不能在一個禮拜內的時間把這樣的一個完整的方案提出來"},{"start":4832.793,"end":4859.255,"text":"事由這個需要對社會說明也需要跟立法院做說明我們希望大家長遠來思考怎麼樣對達到最大的一個效益好不好我想我們把相關的那個案子規劃出來以後一定會跟委員們溝通然後同時我們也會跟行政院報告一個禮拜內把它提出來好不好我認為你們應該已經有想法了但是把那個完整性把它整個抓出來一個禮拜好不好可以嗎然後跟整個社會跟立法院做一個詳細的溝通最後請教一下剛剛其實委員有提到這個"},{"start":4861.237,"end":4861.457,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具"},{"start":4891.657,"end":4915.996,"text":"我們會持續推動那我現在想法就是說因為用微電網是被動式的圍堵那相對被動式圍堵成本也相對比較高那我們是不是可以另外再搭配我們的農業保險去做成一個比較好的一個積極性的一個萬一受損的時候有相關的一個補償但是這個東西可能還要做一個精算因為保險的部分可能牽涉到風險的部分"},{"start":4916.817,"end":4917.057,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":4940.032,"end":4947.237,"text":"一個禮拜的時間給我們一個完整的方案給我們好不好可以齁然後來看怎麼對侯愛的部分有一個好的處理OK好謝謝謝謝接下來我們請謝一鋒委員請做詢談謝謝主席我想要請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":4973.698,"end":4999.566,"text":"很早喔你們上次我有聽到喔農業部4月1號你就發文給食藥署了說要把進口的鮮乳改名為長效乳對不對是阿已經一個月了欸現在怎樣我已讀不回是不是食藥署已讀不回我跟委員報告齁就是我上個禮拜也遇到遇到那個衛夫的次長齁那我也跟他說明了"},{"start":5000.066,"end":5027.28,"text":"他都要照啊?不是,但是因為他說食藥署從食藥署的角度來講他對這樣子的一個名詞他們也有一些利害關係人的不同人的考量那他們原則上也希望能夠推廠我們的國產牛奶那剛好因為在520的前後那他們好像Pending在那邊是喔,那他們是怎樣?沒有跟他在一起的名字,那他們有什麼建議?"},{"start":5029.377,"end":5058.746,"text":"因為整個的一個保存期限是根據製造者本身的一個生產條件嘛那我們去特別就灌了一個長效乳來區分我們的鮮乳對我們國內是沒問題的可是在國際上的那個名詞的使用那可能會有一些困擾啦跟貿易上面有關係對那我們是積極的跟他溝通那你有沒有順便也發函給我們的那個就是那個談判的辦公室"},{"start":5060.655,"end":5063.016,"text":"答案班公司基本上在這個階段不會處理這個,因為我們沒有確定案。"},{"start":5080.264,"end":5093.835,"text":"所以你們是要強硬起來喔?會,我們一定會堅持希望有這樣的一個名詞的改變。大家所有的弱農業都很緊張2025的這個零關稅的問題。是,我了解。應該2月1號我在院會總質詢問問你關於那種弱牛的淘汰補助,這部分做到怎樣?"},{"start":5104.304,"end":5127.89,"text":"我們現在目前報院的經費報院的計劃有核定了那核定的經費那核定的經費下來以後我想我們就開始啟動一家有多少本來是說兩萬塊那時候院長在您質詢的時候有變成兩萬五那那個部分我想我們會再報院去提升這樣的一個兩萬"},{"start":5128.71,"end":5157.677,"text":"對阿因為你也知道現在的供需的問題那導致於就是他們有過剩的這個牛有沒有那我們是不是就在這個期間把弱牛淘汰掉然後讓強壯的牛未來可以就是提高我們國產的對鮮乳的品質然後呢也再加上我們再把這個區隔起來把紐西蘭的鮮乳就是把它更名為長效乳做整個市場"},{"start":5158.638,"end":5172.396,"text":"規格,才不會影響我們國內的落農業者,好不好?那還有,剛才也有其他委員問到,這個荔枝春香為什麼我們林業署會把它"},{"start":5173.517,"end":5178.042,"text":"實要署說律師村像非法定可食昆蟲所以沒辦法炸來吃你知道嗎?"},{"start":5194.355,"end":5222.204,"text":"說明那個是根據林業保育署說明他是在一個環境教育的課程裡面去提出來的那我個人我覺得不當就是把這個影片好像當作說這個東西可以炒來吃您農業部都破訴怎麼會犯這種低級錯誤啊所以人家食藥署才會覺得說你好的名字是不是也有錯誤啊對不對會導致於你溝通失效所以我認為啦"},{"start":5224.525,"end":5241.012,"text":"對,我們改改的啦,我們盡量有效溝通啦,好不好?這樣子對我們台灣的農業才會有幫助啊,好不好?還有我想要再請問一下余業曙,就是文革的我們方院,就是一個很重大的文革的產區喔。"},{"start":5242.352,"end":5263.121,"text":"那我們現在都在推動這種履歷產銷的文革還有甚至有一些青農已經都做到了就是有機的文革喔那這個對於未來台灣的文革出口以及台灣文革的品牌建立是非常重要的一個課題"},{"start":5264.762,"end":5283.139,"text":"但我們知道,最近有一些入獄的風電以及跟環境有相關的垃圾的這種廢棄物的排放等等會影響到文革養殖產區的這個"},{"start":5285.641,"end":5306.481,"text":"他們的養殖環境,你可以問漁業署長啊,他做專業啊,張署長對不對,你就跟他說啊,影響文革的生長,有時候連冬天的氣候,溫度是不是驟降,水溫是不是改變,都可能影響文革的生長。我想要請問漁業署長的是?"},{"start":5309.409,"end":5323.588,"text":"如果你們有沒有做研究你們是不是可以回去做研究到底這個陸域風機它所產生的低頻振動以及低頻的噪音會不會導致文革的產量的問題"},{"start":5325.134,"end":5348.53,"text":"那在這個這個養殖專區裡面你們是不是有什麼所謂的養殖專區的什麼就是說還可以設立某一個部分可以設立這樣子的光電的就是就是綠能的這個專區所以是不是如果在養殖旁邊 余燕淑你不要跟他說了啦你等一下你回答就好了啦 淑長你回答就好了"},{"start":5350.031,"end":5377.451,"text":"是不是你是不是可以回去也可以折成水事所來做相關的研究?是,謝謝委員那彰化的文革齁最近有一些漁業青年回去以後確實整個品質大幅提升包括在產銷履歷你常常去看阿對不對對對對他們提升真的非常的多那至於委員剛剛所提到的說這些風電啦震動啦這些音頻是不是會影響到文革的生產目前應該是沒有相關的文獻但我們會照委員的指示"},{"start":5378.191,"end":5401.074,"text":"因為你沒有相關的文獻,所以我才要麻煩你,你那裡太多破碎了嘛,這個應該要對於這個相關做研究,那你們如果研究出來,如果有相關的影響,你也要提供給經濟部啊,是不是?也要跟他溝通啊,或者是提供給內政部啊,對於相關未來的法規設計的時候,我們就要把這一項考量進去啊,好不好?"},{"start":5401.534,"end":5422.634,"text":"是,我們一定會注重那個整個生產的環境部長可不可以我想我一定會用科技計畫去支持相關的研究我最支持科技計畫了我最支持農業的科技計畫包括風機的一些低音頻對於養殖的那些那個可能要專門的計畫去研究包括其他的光電的部分的影響我們做相關的研究好,謝謝你"},{"start":5431.229,"end":5433.57,"text":"一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5447.154,"end":5465.662,"text":"部長今天就是農再條例喔那我想您應該非常了解農村負擔糧食生產的重要功能但是在農村再生條例推動之前我不不曉得說您還有沒有印象在推動之前相較於都市農村給人的印象為何農村給人的印象就是很雜亂然後"},{"start":5473.427,"end":5495.792,"text":"因為那時候的一個生產面大概都是用傳統的農業的方法去執行所以去到那邊五、三年經常拼到類似這樣子的一個風貌就是過去農村給人的印象就像部長所講的非常的老舊不方便可能髒亂但是都市化跟工商發展"},{"start":5496.892,"end":5525.249,"text":"人口大量就是集中到都市裡面去導致農村的青壯外移公共建設跟發展不足生活機能文化特色都漸漸在喪失那2010年那本席也是農再條例的提案人之一當時呢行政院的版本我記得是1200億那我與翁崇鈞委員的這個堅持之下爭取到1500億那農再執行到今天已經十多年了請問部長"},{"start":5526.791,"end":5528.757,"text":"對於農再執行的成果滿意嗎?"},{"start":5530.351,"end":5556.101,"text":"我想所有的農在的一個執行他一定是階段性的一直往上提升那以現在我們所見到的大概有一百零幾一百零四十多個農村再生計畫那個區域我1046齁這個區域我們看到了他的活力我們看到了青年人進到裡面去我們也看到了那裡的長者受到一些知識性的一個支撐"},{"start":5557.722,"end":5559.426,"text":"那現在我們是慢慢的變成一個網絡從一個個體的農村再生的計畫聯絡成一個網絡的一個社區"},{"start":5566.388,"end":5595.318,"text":"是,所以其實部長形容的也非常貼切感受到欸,農村就是農村裡面有年輕人回流注入新的活力然後老人也活得更有尊嚴所以農村再生的存在其實是非常非常重要尤其他是一個由下而上是有農村自主喔然後很多農民跟在地鄉親的想法是得以發揮的那我現在也給這個部長看一下其實我們在雲林喔其實"},{"start":5596.198,"end":5622.436,"text":"這些農在都發展得非常好這是我們整個雲林的成果當初農在條例通過的時候本期是每一村每一村到村裡面去宣傳說請他們一定要成立社區發展協會也一定要參加培根計畫這個效果非常的好但是我們擔心如果農在基金用完了怎麼辦整個農村以後未來要怎麼辦部長你覺得這對於我們整個台灣發展會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":5626.759,"end":5641.878,"text":"我想第一個部分就是農村再生計畫到目前為止大概有將近497億那足以支應我們113到116的那116以後可能會見底但是在這個過程中我想行政院本身在"},{"start":5642.998,"end":5646.7,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案》案。adequate policy, an important policy."},{"start":5646.7,"end":5665.626,"text":"我們通常提四年級計畫,去抱怨。那抱怨以後,就算以後基金是見底的,透過我們的抱怨的計畫,如果獲得同意的話,還可以由公寓算來撥補。所以我們持續會做這樣的一個努力。除了這個部分之外,本席今天所提的說要再修正,把它再提高到3600億,請問部長支持嗎?"},{"start":5667.967,"end":5692.701,"text":"我跟委員說明就是這個牽涉到因為預算的編列是由行政單位來編的當然那個部分我不是要逼你去說你可以但是我想要知道說你支不支持我想經費本身是一個推動我們農村再生重要的一個支柱啦這些經費能夠有持續性的經費是最好"},{"start":5692.961,"end":5693.541,"text":"所以你是贊成的"},{"start":5710.812,"end":5728.425,"text":"國土計畫法對於農地農村的使用分區是再難以變更再難以進行變更這等於是宣告說未來農村發展將被進一步的限制然後年輕人更不願意留在農村部長你怎麼看"},{"start":5729.165,"end":5738.956,"text":"我想國土計畫就算未來開始114年4月如果順利執行的時候他還有一個通盤檢討的機制就是每五年可以通盤檢討但是你覺得我們準備好了嗎你覺得這個國土計畫法是明年真的可以實施嗎"},{"start":5744.062,"end":5762.76,"text":"我個人認為就是因為現在國土計畫現在這個規限是公佔是應該現在還有地方針對不管是以農業部分的農一農二本身的一個編列還有農三的部分會有一些爭議所以還需要時間讓他們去比較仔細的去做所以部長也是同意說應該暫緩"},{"start":5764.341,"end":5785.283,"text":"如果這個要看喔,因為谷土計畫不只是農業的部分,還有其他的部分,那農業的部分如果有更多的時間,我覺得是可以讓這個計畫更完整的上路。沒錯,本席也同意這件事情應該是要降緩,把所有的配套不管是你農業部的其他部會的都把它都做好之後再去實施,否則後面喔"},{"start":5786.143,"end":5810.023,"text":"會亂成一鍋粥。」這一點我也很感謝部長講出你真實的看法因為我們的確要執行之前需要多一點耐心把所有的細節都盤點好盤整好再去實施那另外就是有關於公糧收購的價格上一次也是本席提的13年前那之前本席有問過部長部長說要等520之後才能決定那我想知道說其實"},{"start":5816.188,"end":5830.22,"text":"離520只剩下5天,部長您決定了沒有?我跟委員說明,就是沒有錯,您所提到的這10年來物價上漲以農業來講,以稻作來講,我們做全國性的一個平均大概10%"},{"start":5831.621,"end":5855.918,"text":"但是同樣的他的產量也提高了所以以公斤為單位來算的話他的成本增加了大概2%這是第一件事情因為基本上我覺得你的算法我們也可以坐下來好好談那目前我們大院已經二讀通過要提高每公斤8塊元以上這一點部長同意嗎?"},{"start":5857.129,"end":5868.561,"text":"我基本上我覺得這個要非常慎重的去思考因為如果說用經費可以解決事情那相對單純我們要考慮的是整個產業的我基本上不認同你不認同所以你是不支持公糧收購價格要提高的"},{"start":5877.919,"end":5882.223,"text":"我、我說我們、我們支持的是我們要確保稻農的收益但是稻農的收益本身我們是"},{"start":5895.836,"end":5920.612,"text":"最後我先再問一下就是百億基金養豬的這個補助啊其實也已經快要見底了那目前呢我們雲林縣呢有156萬頭是佔全國的三分之一的頭數那為了提升這個養豬的效率啊很多這些老舊不堪的設備啊污水池啊都需要改善那我想要請問一下就是說今年是執行計畫的最後一年"},{"start":5923.854,"end":5926.255,"text":"那雲林縣申請踴躍大概有400場申請的金額是8億4千多萬但到目前為止我們這個農業部這邊只有通過1億多那不曉得部長能不能再繼續大力支持一下我們的養豬產業"},{"start":5945.926,"end":5968.47,"text":"我想養豬產業我們一定會去支持那這牽涉到經費的編列跟當時雲林先生我提出來希望中央來補助的那個時間點因為那個時間點已經過了那個經費編列的時間所以我們在下一期的那個預算我們還會繼續你還有下一期嗎這不是執行的最後一年嗎當然名稱不會是一樣的但是針對養豬產業的升級我們還希望能夠持續的推動"},{"start":5973.451,"end":5984.879,"text":"這就是代表說部長會向行政院爭取續辦下一個階段,是嗎?類似這樣,但是名稱不是白衣機的延續,就是說針對養豬產業的行為會繼續,升級會繼續。這個一定是要會持續的,因為養豬產業正在轉型中,不能說轉到一半就停掉了。"},{"start":5995.638,"end":6012.905,"text":"這個本席大力的支持因為對的事情就是要持續去做尤其我們雲林縣是在全國養豬產業的三分之一而且包括大概還有七成的這個豬舍都還沒有被改善希望部長能夠承諾繼續積極的向行政院爭取支持我們養豬產業的升級我想我們已經在做了"},{"start":6021.508,"end":6025.47,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會議經濟委員會第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會議經濟委員會第12屆第12會議經濟委員會第12屆第12會議經濟委員會第12屆第12會議經濟委員會第12屆第12會議經濟委員會第12屆第12會議經濟委員會"},{"start":6051.814,"end":6075.74,"text":"這個養豬大家都很關心我們也謝謝張嘉郡委員也請農業部將你們要報的時候依序委員所需要的請這個給委員說明時間點然後繼續追蹤那麼要請下一位委員鄭振全委員這個質詢前主席來在這邊報告一下因為我們的農村再生條例行政部門跟我們委員大家聽清楚"},{"start":6077.552,"end":6102.285,"text":"行我們是在一百零一年到一百零四年是第一期農在條例那我們的財政紀律法是在一百零八年的時候那當時的氛圍是因為有國防跟這個教育的經費的問題所以當時說不能不能直接就是說金額多少可是這個是圈現在國防主計總書今天又來我們"},{"start":6104.71,"end":6117.974,"text":"今天主要的目的也就是希望幫助農民剛剛不管藍綠的委員在詢答當中跟行政部門大家都一致也就是希望繼續但是我們委員之所以提案的目的也就是我們到116年剛剛部長有說要用慶了沒錢啊這1500億所以大家地方很緊張我們希望提出這個問題希望繼續繼續"},{"start":6131.238,"end":6148.449,"text":"所以剛剛行政部門有說這個財政紀律法我再一次強調財政紀律法當時在108年才設那設了之後呢是因為國防跟教育所以有了這樣子的一個解釋氛圍但是其他的特別基金有沒有這個氛圍"},{"start":6150.051,"end":6159.723,"text":"白紙寫字,上面是沒有的。」所以我也希望我們行政部門當我們提出議案的時候大家要好好的理性來討論理性來討論本期不希望一切惡法這是不好的"},{"start":6165.41,"end":6194.449,"text":"案 目的大家共同的目的都希望一定在116年之後一定要繼續因為剛剛部長有說明了你們好的政策你們會繼續抱怨但是我們在我們的立法部門裡頭監督代表人民不知道行政院到時候他會不會同意如果你農業部報了行政院行政院不同意那我們人民怎麼辦呢所以在監督的立場我們一定會未雨綢繆我們希望在文字方面大家在尋答"},{"start":6195.65,"end":6197.432,"text":"的控檔。」好好冷靜去想到底要怎麼樣能夠確認白紙寫黑字的是一定要繼續因為剛剛部長有講了好的政策你們會報給這個行政院萬一行政院不准呢你告訴我們一句話你要回來公務部門"},{"start":6214.088,"end":6218.149,"text":"公務預算來執行之。可是當你的公務預算你如果總量沒有增加你增加這個部分會不會排擠到其他?這個也是我們為你農業部在思考的所以今天會提出這樣子的一個方案我也謝謝藍綠白的委員大家都支持在文字方面要怎麼樣這個這個大家來討論所以我再次強調行政部門我們要用心好好的來討論內容好嗎?"},{"start":6243.317,"end":6245.959,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們請鄭正前委員請做詢談我們再請陳部長"},{"start":6266.781,"end":6293.617,"text":"部長好今天主席特別安排了農村再生條例的一個修法部分那我想說其中很關鍵的一個就是剛剛主席也特別提到了一個農村再生基金的問題那我想說基金如果缺乏永續的經營規劃的時候一定會坐吃山空那我們農村再生條例在民國99年制定的時候第七條當中的時候規定了設置農村再生基金嘛那當時基金規模是1500億那分十年預算編列"},{"start":6294.837,"end":6306.469,"text":"現在基金即將用盡,剛剛主席也特別提到那很多委員都提出了不同的一個方案那基本上草野委員都提出來了希望能夠將基金的規模提高到3500億到4500億之間分年剝入"},{"start":6310.733,"end":6329.029,"text":"對於農村再生基金推動各項農村再生計畫本席表示支持。但是對於農村再生基金,它是一個非營業特種基金基金來源除了是政府的撥補之外,也應該要有其他的收入協助基金的永續經營,否則基金就只能等著坐吃山空"},{"start":6329.369,"end":6347.099,"text":"我想這樣的一個說法應該是部長應該也認同啦OK好那我們看到農村再生基金裡面他長期有無償借款給其他的基金包括農業天然災害救助基金包括農業發展基金我們看到民國111年的一個決算數"},{"start":6350.122,"end":6367.384,"text":"農村再生基金就是借給了農業天然災害救助基金10.6億元然後農業發展基金也借了15.3億元我想請問一下部長農村再生基金有沒有內部資金調度需要有算利率"},{"start":6368.845,"end":6392.431,"text":"計席這樣的一個機制有沒有部長我跟委員說明就是農村再生基金本身就是有短期的借貸通常是因為我們在其他的基金像農發基金、農損基金在當年度發生的額度比較多的時候經過抱怨經過特措管理委員會同意以後會操之並決算那這個時候就用短期的是由那個農村再生基金去撥然後第二年國庫就要撥補"},{"start":6394.131,"end":6414.272,"text":"理解那個部長因為這基金當中有調度可是我想問一下就是我們基金當中的一個那個內部的調度都沒有計息對不對政府沒有計息嗎如果都沒有計息可是並不是所有的這種基金都沒有計息喔像我們新興的開發基金它就有定計息的相關的規定所以我在想說農村再生基金規模這麼大那"},{"start":6415.874,"end":6437.168,"text":"如果都沒有類似的規範的時候那資金的那個運用效能跟收益其實顯然就不太夠而且他如果說再比方說在農業部當不同基金當中可以直接這樣去營資的時候呢就感覺很像農業部的一個小金庫所以本席希望說就是對於這個季期的部分農業部能夠仔細的去參考去其他基金的一個"},{"start":6439.845,"end":6466.912,"text":"運作規劃的一個方式。」那麼對於農業天然災害救助基金跟農業發展基金他有沒有償還計畫?那目前的時候預計什麼時候會還完?這個部分?這個部分因為我們每一筆對於就是向農債基金借錢的都是抱怨同意。不是農業部自己來的。然後行政院同意了以後第二年就會撥補。對。可是過程當中其實他撥補回來的時候其實就沒有計息嘛對不對?"},{"start":6468.192,"end":6469.113,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文"},{"start":6489.58,"end":6515.438,"text":"那這六個基金當中的時候我想簡單來看一下在基金當中的時候農業特別社會基金裡頭它基本上就是逐年增加就表示農業部也認真在爭取這個部分那這邊我們給予肯定可是我們看到了一個漁業發展基金的部分漁業發展基金的時候其實非常的少除了110年有增加的部分可是110年增加的部分它其實是因為它"},{"start":6517.359,"end":6542.898,"text":"有認列95到99年的一個應追繳沒有追繳的一個損失的部分,對不對?所以它才增加一千多萬。那我要特別講的狀態就是在這個農業特別收入基金當中的時候,那個漁業相關的一個基金非常非常的少。漁業發展基金僅佔這個農業特別收入基金的萬分之三到五而已。"},{"start":6543.578,"end":6550,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院及第十五條條文"},{"start":6572.858,"end":6579.662,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期"},{"start":6600.916,"end":6615.213,"text":"更多的一個資源去處理南寮漁港清淤的問題我想請問一下我們現在南寮漁港清淤去年今年有4900萬我知道目前已經在進行了明年的預算有沒有"},{"start":6616.107,"end":6618.328,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11會期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6645.38,"end":6673.334,"text":"對,那我們這邊預算要怎麼去找?不是一年兩千五百萬現在兩年四千九百萬就可以解決的問題啊我想跟委員說明我們年度邊的預算可能是針對他當年度可能的機率去清理但是像這麼嚴重的情形應該有一次性的讓他紓盡完了以後再用年度的經費去做維持是部長很棒喔你講到一次性的預算去清於整個清於完之後之後再用每一年"},{"start":6673.814,"end":6675.116,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":6693.317,"end":6718.542,"text":"那因為現在的預算還可以做520以後還可以做適度的調整那不足了因為現在在編明年度的所以我們會做適度的調整第二個部分就是漁業署的計畫不只是公務預算還有基金的預算在裡面所以我們會有一些不同的方式去來協助漁業的發展是部長所以我剛剛有特別提到了一個漁業基金的相關預算就是因為他也相對少所以需要部長這邊去統籌一下能夠給就是"},{"start":6722.583,"end":6726.467,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":6745.347,"end":6767.778,"text":"我都覺得可以肯定雖然我們認為他也許比例不一定符合相較於新竹漁港的一個狀態所以剛剛部長也承諾要給新竹漁港一次性的其餘的部分那我希望就是部長這邊盡速把它整合好之後跟本辦做一個詳細的一個報告可不可以可以好謝謝部長以上謝謝"},{"start":6775.363,"end":6789.507,"text":"好謝謝我們接下來請張祺凱委員請做詢談那個與會人士我們中午不休息那如果也要生理管理請自動去謝謝我們再請陳部長"},{"start":6811.528,"end":6835.225,"text":"昨天公糧收購算是向前跨了一大步昨天包括臺灣民眾黨我代表臺灣民眾黨的這個提案還有楊瓊瓔的提案昨天都近乎二讀啦那接下來應該是一個月內就要找部長協調了今天我們期待啊部長在這個協調過程不要一毛不拔寸草不生好不好"},{"start":6836.704,"end":6841.445,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期"},{"start":6858.462,"end":6868.867,"text":"我們本來台灣民眾黨要求一公升要調升至少五塊錢那楊瓊瓔的是要八塊嘛對不對我聽到內幕說行政部門是行政院那邊可能是要一公升調三塊是不是"},{"start":6871.607,"end":6897.787,"text":"完全沒有這個消息我跟委員說明每條一塊錢要花4.32億至少大概有這個數字其實台灣民眾黨是一個理性、務實、科學的政黨我們是去看了一些必要的條件包括成本的增加這段時間13年每條物價上漲15%農藥跟肥料上漲25%漲更多的是基本工資13年基本工資漲了將近1萬"},{"start":6899.548,"end":6920.487,"text":"就是53%所以漲五塊錢不過分沒關係我們反正一個月內會再協商好不好是這部分請你拜託一下多照顧我們的我們會提出一個大家都滿意的方案好期待你的滿意的方案不過最重要的不要一毛不拔寸草不生好來我們來問一個歷史性今天希望是一個歷史性的詢答"},{"start":6921.912,"end":6924.073,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":6953.319,"end":6954.48,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":6979.517,"end":6979.537,"text":"案。」"},{"start":6994.814,"end":7014.483,"text":"兩千三百五十二萬然後委託加工的部分是三千三百六十七萬然後還有蛋餅調度的部分還有相關的行政費用還有消費的費用堆肥的費用這些東西加起來是十億我跟委員說明我剛才這些資料是透過我們因為會計帳最清楚會計帳最清楚那會計帳所列的這些項目"},{"start":7025.953,"end":7037.228,"text":"議長,這個是很重要,這個順目字不會再變了嘛,對不對?一個細目都非常清楚,等一下給我一份,然後給記者一份,我們今天把它定下來。議長,我要提醒你一點齁,審計部也是要查理這個事,你不要這個順目字又有跳動喔齁。"},{"start":7045.772,"end":7054.138,"text":"我還是要跟委員說明,所有的雞蛋調度是由區長會,然後區長會提報計畫來我們農業部從會計的角度去合這樣的一個經費的項目。那這個部分我想我們會後會提給委員,這沒問題。但是我覺得在這個時間點,我們會想辦法在我們的公開,就是我們的什麼?"},{"start":7069.65,"end":7070.49,"text":"短短短短短短短短短短短短短短"},{"start":7086.099,"end":7106.721,"text":"今天很清楚全民買單就是10億就定掉下來那本席還更清楚的不是只有你剛講這個細目本席很清楚要求兩個東西過期雞蛋採購金額的要一個詳細的列表包括進口國數量進口日期跟到案的這個價格這個你本來就是這樣做嘛對不對你再清楚給我一份第二個"},{"start":7107.942,"end":7135.092,"text":"我跟委員說明齁因為有很多東西都已經在去年度的那個官網裡面就呈現了就是我們都有定期的有進口我們就會把那個數量有個報表數量會增加有做的東西依照這個剛講的規格進口國數量進口日期跟到案價格給我第二個我跟委員先說明齁因為你的進口日期變成每一批每一批那個已經屬於在調查了"},{"start":7135.712,"end":7164.746,"text":"那我個人覺得說我們基本上我們本身現在目前的相關的規定是至少對農業部我們有經過會計還有一些同仁去了解了以後是一個正常的行為當然沒有錯續產會本身有一些作業上必須精進的地方那如果說每一筆每一個批號都要去調那個是大工程那相對的現在我們畜牧師我們還有很多很多的事情要做其實不是今天我要求你我審計部我覺得審計部去查一定也是要這個細目對"},{"start":7165.506,"end":7167.987,"text":"我相信民眾本身因為會計的報表是最精準,如果連會計報表都不"},{"start":7190.456,"end":7212.151,"text":"就覺得不準的話,那政府的威信在哪邊?好,我們也看你的報表啦,好不好?那另外一個很重要的就是那個去化過程,到底能不能招公信嘛齁?我剛才看你的網站,有進步啦!你訂那個白色的檔案,現在今天有六天的檔案,對不對?我還是,沒有,對不起,我還是跟委員講齁,整個過期雞蛋的消費有第三方"},{"start":7212.992,"end":7229.612,"text":"全程的監控,包括地方的衛生局、地方的相關的人員,還有我們部分的政府。這個東西如果沒有辦法取得公信,那什麼影片其實只是一個讓人家知道我們的過程。"},{"start":7231.654,"end":7247.626,"text":"我承諾所以我現在因為因為他的檔案太大了所以我們現在想辦法拉成另外一個硬碟然後讓同讓需要的人去下載而不是線上瀏覽因為那會讓我們的憑光掛掉"},{"start":7251.569,"end":7279.587,"text":"實際上你最重要要分類啦就是要有日期然後有出來的倉儲跟那個去化廠跟整個數量好不好你目前已經有六天的量了對我們完成就會上去到這個格式你現在上去的是data啦就是還不是information嘛對不對那你就是要分類啊你黨名應該有個日期有個倉儲有個去化廠有個數量我跟委員說明齁我跟委員說明齁我真的沒有辦法依照委員要求的這個黨名因為黨名一改因為黨名跟我們的檔案有分類的邏輯"},{"start":7281.108,"end":7296.892,"text":"但是相對的我們把影片PO上去表示說我們做了這些事情那如果說要根據你的日期倉儲企劃場數量那相對的我所謂的黨名要重改對有日期有倉儲的地點對我相信會讓人家知道還是很困難我們要看什麼叫進一步的分裂啦好不好再來我問你幾個事事實上我們談那麼久"},{"start":7310.063,"end":7322.072,"text":"現在就是整個雞舍包括雞蛋的產量要增加我給大家看一個圖我們在最左邊跟最右邊我們台灣的蛋積每年的產蛋的量最左邊2016年跟最右邊的2022年今年是一樣的一年只生產了187萬顆這代表什麼?兩年沒進步嗎?"},{"start":7337.802,"end":7337.822,"text":"案。"},{"start":7357.286,"end":7381.751,"text":"這是產蛋率對啊阿所以表示那個我們那個基色的升級跟那個什麼產蛋確實不夠你看一看人家365天幾乎每天都在生蛋阿我們兩天才生一顆嘛大概51%嘛齁這個要從產量跟那個基色升級去做好不好齁這個我有明確的要求我看一下上一張好不好你給我這兩個資料訂出增加多少勤設升級的改善的年度計劃你這要有個計劃你計劃也沒有嘛"},{"start":7383.211,"end":7395.801,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案："},{"start":7408.331,"end":7433.356,"text":"已經來申請了那73場已經開始執行了但是每一個執行都要有一個輔導團隊去協助他所以他不是申請了我們就給所以後續一定有213場會執行所以就是他到底有多少你一年裡面要多少年對我們會提供後續的資訊你就提到這兩點就好了我問一個簡單的問一個簡單的啊上禮拜我給你拿2022年中央市場會日本專案進口那個3081萬顆採購金額2億"},{"start":7437.517,"end":7439.619,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":7454.757,"end":7473.494,"text":"因為我個人覺得說除非說法律規定不可以包括那個合約沒有錯第三方不同意但是後來我看了條文如果有適當的理由如果農業部可以認定的時候就可以提供那我就決定會提供因為我覺得"},{"start":7474.315,"end":7484.343,"text":"我們不是因為要隱藏隱埋什麼樣的一個訊息只是因為法律上的規定的見解可能人家不一樣所以我後續的話都會提供給委員"},{"start":7485.413,"end":7498.379,"text":"法定啊齁一個禮拜內給我嗎還是多久可以給你應該可以吧一個禮拜還是要更早一點我跟委員說明齁我上禮拜已經對我現在把它解開但是相對的就是那些我上禮拜就跟他們講了啦其實我對現在人擔心的就是齁他們資料的核對"},{"start":7509.946,"end":7532.773,"text":"如果數字錯掉,那就麻煩了。會讓人家覺得可能是因為誤算的關係,所以我會要求他們那個資料要準確性啦,然後才提供給委員。我盡可能一個禮拜可以給你,如果說沒辦法給你,我們一定會事先跟你講,什麼原因沒有辦法做到。就像影片一樣,我沒有辦法馬上上網嘛,我必須去轉檔。"},{"start":7537.575,"end":7559.915,"text":"那個部長你不用這麼客氣委員要的資料不要在這邊詳細什麼連規格都討論好不好那你們就要運取委員所需要的你們的幕僚要跟委員去討論清楚即使你的網站沒有辦法全部大翻但是委員要的資料還是要給他好不好"},{"start":7560.475,"end":7561.416,"text":"二、本院委員"},{"start":7575.925,"end":7588.609,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第12次經濟委員會第12次經濟委員會等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第17條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院議員等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第18條條文修正草案：立法院議員等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第18條條文修正草案：立法院議員等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第19條條文修正草案：立法院議員等19人擬具:「農村再生"},{"start":7604.335,"end":7622.964,"text":"你今天是農業部部長來這邊報告你們應該事先跟他們去拿資料過來才對啊對不對好不好好那就這樣子一個禮拜內要給我們張委員張委員的個性大家都很清楚會繼續追本學會繼續追好謝謝好謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝兩個都很故意這樣好接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做巡檔"},{"start":7652.007,"end":7653.696,"text":"主席、國務委員、有請部長。我們再請陳部長"},{"start":7663.115,"end":7689.935,"text":"部長好兩位好今天我們審查農村再生條例這個農業部的報告今天的報告也特別提到這個14年來到去年年底也寫了很多的成果既然有很多的成果表示這個條例確實有繼續要執行的必要你的報告裡面也提到"},{"start":7691.776,"end":7713.878,"text":"這個農村再生基金系由國庫撥充看清楚你自己寫的國庫撥充無自有財源基金已將以116年度用完寫得很清楚啊所以因為要用完了所以"},{"start":7717.223,"end":7740.978,"text":"立法院的立法委員主動提案要去協助解決你們的問題也就是解決農民的問題這是應該的這裡面這個基金的總額從1500億因為要116年度就要用完了當然就要去處理就要修法"},{"start":7744.256,"end":7765.962,"text":"這個有4500億當然還有另外一個版本這個楊瓊瓔召委的是4500億然後分20年原來的是10年分20年來編列寫得清清楚楚然後基金的農村再生基金的用途也要擴大"},{"start":7767.785,"end":7789.701,"text":"相關的這些土地的利用、農宅生活、生產、生態文化、景觀、空間規劃等等還包括很多農村、農產業、活化各方面的這些都提了非常的詳細。這裡面到底還少了什麼,大家還可以討論。好,重點"},{"start":7795.492,"end":7824.759,"text":"重點在這邊今天農業部的報告裏面提到本部意見依據財政紀律法第五條第七條之規定類有關所提法律案增加政府稅出須有具體指明彌補資金之來源立法機關制定或修正法律法規不增訂固定"},{"start":7826.519,"end":7827.881,"text":"經費額度或比例保障。」"},{"start":7846.445,"end":7875.298,"text":"好 這個其實剛才你的報告也有提到國庫撥充現行條文也是一樣前項分年編列預算之撥入現在召委的版本我也有連署了這裡面提到農村再生基金之來源如下政府逐年編列預算撥入很明確啊"},{"start":7876.749,"end":7905.998,"text":"很明確跟財政激勵法毫無抵觸預算怎麼來?寫得很清楚政府逐年編例預算撥入所以這個部分我是30年公務員我以前沒有法律的時候也要去爭取預算不是嗎?要跟主計總署去爭取預算明年是不是能夠再"},{"start":7907.028,"end":7933.219,"text":"公務預算能夠再增加。」所以寫得很清楚政府逐年編例預算撥入基金這個預算來源寫得很清楚所以這個部分要請我們農業部的同仁未來寫的時候要謹慎不要添那個主計你們叫主計處"},{"start":7934.881,"end":7942.643,"text":"修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":7960.882,"end":7989.222,"text":"各位委員說明可能有一點誤解我們一般的計劃計劃通常是四年期計劃那計劃抱怨如果合定的話會逐年編列這是一件事情那今天是在農村再生條例這個法律案裡面去明定一個金額那明定一個金額根據財政紀律法本身因為經費的編列是屬於行政權就是由行政單位來編列然後送行政院同意以後送立法院來審核"},{"start":7990.603,"end":8008.143,"text":"那現在是因為委員的版本直接去名列了所以我們在這邊提出來說就是說因為財政紀律法有這樣的一個問題那至於說財政紀律法裡面的問題是怎麼樣去解釋那可能就是看後面的情況到底是我們只是忠實的去講這件事情"},{"start":8010.543,"end":8038.579,"text":"太過忠實了。稍微聽我前面講的。跟一般的法不一樣。跟一般的法不一樣。為什麼呢?因為這個法是現有的法。然後也切實錢要用光了。116要用完了。所以一定要修。不然除非要廢紙。對不對?除非你認為要廢紙。"},{"start":8040.464,"end":8042.786,"text":"因此,本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具、「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8071.004,"end":8092.553,"text":"立法院就不能再提任何的法律會跟經費有增加,常常會提啊。我們上禮拜內政委會通過了什麼地方民意代表的條例,也是要內政部支付啊,增加很多錢啊,內政部要增加,所以很多的法律都會增加經費。"},{"start":8094.517,"end":8117.846,"text":"都會,所以不是這樣子做解釋的。當然我們這個時間的關係,這個我還是要跟這個部長,昨天立法院院會針對這個公糧收購的價格十三年未調整,昨天立法院"},{"start":8120.188,"end":8149.23,"text":"也通過要進行討論協商所以這個部分這個是對農民有利按照剛才的說法我們連提都不能提所以這個部分它就是事實上是十三年未調整相關的基本工資物價上漲各方面的不斷成長當然我們一樣可以提不能全部都用財政機率收支"},{"start":8150.164,"end":8162.57,"text":"財政紀律法來去作為一個不同意的理由所以這個部分我們共同的請努力好不好要支持可以嗎公務預算政府的預算編列"},{"start":8172.824,"end":8174.925,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":8204.591,"end":8208.233,"text":"謝謝主席,請陳部長我們再請陳部長委員好部長,今天我們針對我們的農村再生計畫提出了一些修正的這個草案那個別委員都有很多的提案那最主要是因為說剛才都提到了農村的這個再生基金即將要用完了"},{"start":8231.849,"end":8232.049,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具"},{"start":8261.749,"end":8263.71,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":8291.929,"end":8294.591,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":8319.538,"end":8338.312,"text":"關區是過去的概念現在是全面的以前全國的關區是55萬公頃那31萬公頃是屬於我們的關區非關區有24萬公頃但是你在去年整個涵蓋努力要把它全部打通有農水路的情形只做到5.6萬公頃還有18.4萬公頃都還沒有做這個速度太慢了我要跟委員說明"},{"start":8344.116,"end":8365.795,"text":"就是非灌溉的部分有一部分在平地有一部分在波地那波地是沒有辦法做灌溉渠道的所以在波地的部分我們用鼓勵他的蓄水池的興建還有網路灌溉我知道在平地的話是屬於農水路是屬於農水署的那如果在山地的那個農水路的話是屬於水保署的沒有"},{"start":8366.155,"end":8380.887,"text":"所以因為有水池的保持保護的問題我們農水組照樣去支持波地裡面的灌溉用水的水池的興建跟它的蓄水設就是它的灌溉系統的那個管路我們都有去支持而且每戶應該是50萬吧"},{"start":8382.868,"end":8384.97,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會議"},{"start":8408.612,"end":8408.632,"text":"案。」議員"},{"start":8431.494,"end":8460.413,"text":"這個要看情況,它是不是符合天然災害救助?對,如果是符合天然災害救助的話,對,就是達到20%我們就會啟動天然災害救助再來就是因為我們台水公司的跟我們農水署購買的水的成本越來越高一公噸大概成本在平均起來加上所有的費用平均起來是4.1元而跟水利署購買的水的成本一公噸只有一塊錢"},{"start":8462.657,"end":8472.153,"text":"部長,你有沒有聽懂這個意思?一樣是公務機關,為什麼買水的情形不一樣?這一點的話你們可以做個調整嗎?一樣是公務機關啊?"},{"start":8474.138,"end":8500.61,"text":"而且我們自然水公司他也努力的在各方面的用水部分他也多元的來使用能夠開發更多的水源也減少了我們這個漏水的問題還有舉在比如說他們很多的這些太舊的管線都要太舊換新他們的成本也很高所以本期在這邊希望我們部長能夠重視讓我們的農水署能不能比照水利署的調整原水的單價好不好"},{"start":8501.91,"end":8527.655,"text":"這個我想我們會後會去評估那跟委員報告一個重點就是我們農業的部分有一部分是水庫用水那才需要去處理那更有一部分我們是用埤塘用河川所以我們希望說更多的埤塘能夠來做水資源的調度像桃園地區現在水情有點緊張其實對農業用水來講我們覺得自來水公司啦他還是供應給大家的水嘛因為自來水公司也已經負債了"},{"start":8528.695,"end":8529.636,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":8558.955,"end":8578.13,"text":"最關鍵的就是因為這個鮮奶的問題那之前在四月份的時候特別有提到這個他們的鮮奶到120度的溫度殺菌之後的話60天的這個期限的話是比較久的在我們台灣的這個酪農的話在競爭之下如果明年他零關稅那影響到我們"},{"start":8579.411,"end":8590.3,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條條文修正"},{"start":8604.671,"end":8620.034,"text":"改成長效乳已經一個半月快兩個月了都沒有專家會都沒有開這個是有什麼顧忌還是有什麼問題嗎不是我想跟委員說明齁這個長效乳的這個建議民政的建議案我們在4月初已經送到衛福部那邊了齁是那"},{"start":8621.236,"end":8644.415,"text":"我會盡快再跟衛務部溝通齁能夠召開一個正式的會議已經快兩個月了盡快你放兩個月了對我知道所以我持續在跟他們溝通剩下半年的時間明年的話他們完全就免關稅囉零關稅囉我相信下禮拜我相信應該會有更明確的做法下禮拜就要有正式的會議好不好沒有我會要求請啊請衛務部因為會議不是我們召開的"},{"start":8645.476,"end":8665.259,"text":"所以你要去了解什麼原因,他有顧忌什麼嗎?是不是?了解,我會盡可能請他們...不要放到那邊,要去追蹤,已經要兩個月了,你們還沒有追蹤,可是要提醒你們,好不好?而且你們現在特別提出來了29億的農業升級的這個計畫,所以你要特別看看我們這個諾農要怎麼樣讓他們轉型,來輔導他們,好不好?好。那還有一個問題就是,這個台紐喔,這個,不是,這個立陶宛"},{"start":8674.82,"end":8696.217,"text":"這個部分我們看到我們的農產品在這邊有開放給他們進口進來那因為那個立陶宛本來在我們這個辦事處從台灣要改成台北現在又放下來了那立陶宛這邊現在正在選舉相信現任的總統可能會連任我們擔心的是未來他如果又跟大陸交好的話對我們這個農產品的進口方面我們農業部會不會適時的做一個調整"},{"start":8702.02,"end":8702.22,"text":"答案。"},{"start":8722.328,"end":8722.869,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具"},{"start":8738.404,"end":8766.461,"text":"所以有幾個面向,加工的應用、低碳的栽培技術還有一些種源,這個都是我們的強項所以他不會因為他們政治上的一個立場而改變了對我們的合作我們希望不要被改變啦,不要被改變所以部長,你剛剛講的是很多別的科技的技術我想的是牛肉部分,如果他有這種情勢再發生的話我們一定要對我們整個農產品的進口做調整好不好我了解,了解"},{"start":8769.558,"end":8773.801,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們是有請我們農業部部長。好,我們請陳部長。"},{"start":8799.783,"end":8815.455,"text":"喂吼部長部長針對今天農再條例的一個修正那主要大家是很擔心整個農再基金目前大概剩多少現在到年底應該497億剩497億那如果以這樣的規劃是到116年對我們第四期的預算我們提出來是432億嘛"},{"start":8825.242,"end":8828.913,"text":"所以相對的到116年的時候他基金的餘額應該有5.5億"},{"start":8831.385,"end":8857.851,"text":"所以就是說到116年的時候,就是看起來這個基金就即將要用氣了。所以今天大家去歡樂這,尤其對我們農業縣來說,整個農債基金是撐住讓整個農村可以維持一個還可以的一個面貌。這是非常重要的一個機會支持。所以你們這邊也同意說,未來是不是在持續可以用公務預算,"},{"start":8859.291,"end":8874.617,"text":"邱議瑩等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第"},{"start":8883.3,"end":8899.714,"text":"一起一起的去編然後由行政院同意以後就算未來基金見底了以後他還是可以透過另外一個機制透過行政院同意了以後用公務預算去撥補用這樣的方式還是可以就是撥補基金撥補基金以後這樣的話讓這個基金是可以繼續運作的並不會說這個條文寫一個10年我們現在農發基金也一樣這樣農發基金已經撥完了但是還是不夠每年都需要"},{"start":8908.661,"end":8937.312,"text":"那公務預算也會撥補,農村基金也是這樣子的好,那我們這個是希望因為農村的建設跟這個農災是非常重要的真的是息息相關,這非常重要然後第二個就是我想要跟部長討論一下啦因為我們知道現在內政部這個國土計畫法那看起來說它上路的即將要上路但是國土計畫法它還是有很多需要去檢討的尤其是國土計畫法跟農村發展條例甚至到農村再生條例"},{"start":8938.072,"end":8962.438,"text":"他們這樣彼此要對接的問題,那在我的選區,像水上鄉,農德村,它就常常有很多是在生條裡面的農地,生條喔,它並不是說在森林,森林就是農田嘛。每一棟都是生條裡面喔,就是四周圍大概都是房子,不然那塊被規劃成農役。"},{"start":8966.28,"end":8979.23,"text":"這個部長不會覺得這個很奇怪嗎?對,這個的確是有一點奇怪啦。是啊,看起來不少耶。我見到很多人在跟我澄清說,如果你說這個層是一層瓦,那整個都放在地上,明明是一層瓦,旁邊都是柱子。"},{"start":8985.976,"end":9004.001,"text":"我向委員報告就是我們現在看各縣市在編列的從農一到農五的部分有幾個比較異常的部分就是農一跟農二的編列本身的比例的問題那第三個就是有一些可以屬於農三的"},{"start":9004.941,"end":9021.277,"text":"他被編成保育、國保去了。那這個部分我們也想辦法去處理。有一些像您剛才講的這個部分也有部分的情形會發生。所以部長我要確認是不是只有農三跟農四、農五他才有可能在農村的一個"},{"start":9022.378,"end":9023.298,"text":"再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":9042.046,"end":9069.105,"text":"所以我覺得這需要檢討因為既然在村內大概村莊內還是有村莊內需要的一些景觀阿你現在又把它用成農醫然後他把它限制就是就會有問題就像你剛剛講的例子就是村莊裡面包圍的這些地那是不是可以適度的調整阿不然到時候裡面就變成夾心餅乾阿"},{"start":9070.626,"end":9074.247,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":9099.054,"end":9103.118,"text":"第二條我要跟部長再談一下我們鋪子的肉品市場"},{"start":9104.164,"end":9129.819,"text":"案。」而農民市場大概從蘇貞昌院長承認說我們佈置這個整個這個屠宰場然後要把它做一個升級然後未來是可以導入HACCP那可以讓它在台灣的地盤可以外銷處理所以這個事情地方很期待但是看起來因為在中間行政程序的一些"},{"start":9131.44,"end":9152.64,"text":"一些討論的過程有拖延到,有拖延到,所以一直到了去年,去年底,我們才拆除,拆除標材出去。那目前興建大概還需要很長的時間,但是我覺得這件事情就變得說一開始在決定太衝刺了,所以說我們一開始就叫"},{"start":9154.241,"end":9155.522,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文"},{"start":9178.39,"end":9199.507,"text":"接下來就不補助了,但是你這樣看,你這樣的話,我們如果要那麼晚才拆,是不是很,我們不應該那麼早就叫他們停止營業。我跟各位報告,就是說農村兩年是因為我們規劃大概兩年會新建完整,那如果是因故其他的原因延長的時候,我們會來討論說,是不是針對農會的協助會再延長,這第一件事情。第二點就是說,"},{"start":9203.69,"end":9215.537,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條條文修正"},{"start":9230.705,"end":9230.725,"text":"案。"},{"start":9273.245,"end":9276.087,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊瓔發言謝謝主席楊瓊瓔發言再邀請我們陳部長"},{"start":9288.296,"end":9313.73,"text":"部長好,第一個議題公糧收購昨天在院會交付經負二讀交付協商我希望本期在做協商的時候能夠得到你的支持就陳文綺所說的我們要全面的照顧我們的農民十三年沒有調漲的公糧沒有理由不漲所有的物價所有的這個生產成本包括農油不一定要訂定搬運工行"},{"start":9315.131,"end":9317.332,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9340.739,"end":9345.762,"text":"我們希望能夠有一個完美的一個呈現也給全國的國民報告我們的農民我們一定要好好照顧謝謝接下來本期要跟你討論的是我們今天所提案的第七條跟第十五條第十五條是因為我們由農委會現在是農業部所以相關的文字以及相關的單位我們必須要做調整第十五條你們應該認同吧"},{"start":9367.356,"end":9378.605,"text":"第二條,這個應該是認同吧?這個認同。那在第七條是我們今天的重點。本席也提第七條跟第十五條。那第七條裡面,我們從民國101年開始分為四個階段,到116年,總金額是1500億,是不是?"},{"start":9378.605,"end":9378.625,"text":"是。"},{"start":9385.851,"end":9389.434,"text":"是不是?好,那到116年就沒錢了對不對?預計啦預計預計就沒錢了齁?對好,你一個冷靜的思維為什麼我們要提這個案子?因為我們很緊張我們也希望做農委、農業部的後盾做農民的開先鋒做農民的後盾為什麼要這麼說呢?給部長您冷靜去思考"},{"start":9410.313,"end":9422.757,"text":"你的條文農村再生條例裡頭你就是多少錢一千五百億如果你這一千五百億這個大框架沒有拿下來你每一天就要跟著乞丐一樣去拜託行政院對不對"},{"start":9425.538,"end":9427.5,"text":"你這個大框架要不要拿下來1500億我們應該要把1500億在116年這一個條文應該要把1500億拿掉這就是你必須要去思維的第一項"},{"start":9440.535,"end":9458.799,"text":"第二條,我們很緊張,我們怕拜託行政院不支持,那你要回到你的公務預算,你要急你的公務預算。當然你非常誠意,我本席再次請問,農村再生條例到116年,因為這個是本席擔任書記長的時候通過這個法案,那本席要再次請教,116年之後,"},{"start":9465.76,"end":9465.78,"text":"案。」"},{"start":9482.145,"end":9487.607,"text":"我們為什麼會具體說出數字因為我們很緊張萬一你去拜託沒錢擠到你的公務預算又會擠到其他的預算所以在這樣情況之下你冷靜去思考我們可以調整文字目標也就是116年之後我們要繼續辦而且經費不能少那所以我們願意寫一個也就是說依照政府的這個這個循政府預算"},{"start":9511.894,"end":9531.016,"text":"去撥款去撥款但是先決條件你必須要把一千五百億這一個部分要拿掉你才有辦法有法源依據去拜託去去編列你的依照你的財政的這個這個次序去要求編列這個預算對不對"},{"start":9533.506,"end":9553.184,"text":"我想非常感謝委員對這個農村再生條例經費的一個支持但是以農業部的立場來講因為在條文裡面如果列了這樣的一個金額就違反了另外一個法律的立法不要列金額嘛本期告訴我也其實他有討論空間剛剛本期在主席台的時候已經宣布了可以把金額拿下來但是你1500億要拿下來也要拿下來"},{"start":9557.228,"end":9557.248,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9572.038,"end":9573.219,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":9592.726,"end":9594.387,"text":"審查：立法院第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期"},{"start":9620.579,"end":9639.972,"text":"合格候選人可以向農運會申請所屬選區選舉人名冊的會員姓名及戶籍地址資料。農運會提供個人資料是因為申請加入農運會為會員之需要,但是農運會卻沒有經過會員的同意。"},{"start":9645.155,"end":9668.441,"text":"違反了各自收集的這個目標﹚這個目的﹚所以目前的各自法這個的確是會有危害到所以本席要請教目前你們更邏輯更奇怪的一件事情你們竟然怎麼做呢你們是這個選票法裡頭你說第11條第6項第7這個跟第7項呢你們有說喔"},{"start":9675.023,"end":9680.147,"text":"是規範農運會應該實施適當的安全措施及候選人應於選舉結束後確實將資料予以銷毀。"},{"start":9705.143,"end":9714.169,"text":"你等於破解了你的輔水印啊我哪要知道我自己去抄啊我自己去印啊你們怎麼圍堵啊這是一個喔接下來你抄錄了之後的選舉人名稱引印多少份你會知道嗎你們的人有跟著去嗎你不知道那還有更你沒有辦法去管控啊還有更離譜的你們說選舉結束後你要銷毀誰銷毀"},{"start":9730.979,"end":9736.492,"text":"你告訴我,到目前為止執行有誰銷毀啊?你知道嗎?你有追蹤嗎?你知道嗎?你有追蹤嗎?"},{"start":9740.014,"end":9760.641,"text":"我們沒有追蹤對啊那你這個不是不好意思說啊真的是離譜至極啊撫水印了被破解一個政府的政策撫水印了被破解還有寫了一個白紙寫黑字等到選舉完你要把名冊申請的人申請的人要把名冊消毀誰消毀啊"},{"start":9764.028,"end":9770.231,"text":"選舉完就完了誰消毀?你知不知道有沒有消毀?有沒有管控啊?有沒有管控?有沒有管控?對啊!你太離譜了嘛!對不對?哪有一個政府做這種事情?選舉欸!他有選罷法我們要依法行事欸!個資法有個資法欸!通通都違法!"},{"start":9788.002,"end":9806.161,"text":"而且行政部門也沒有管控,哪有這麼離間、這麼離譜?對不對?所以本席具體你也認同這是不對的因為我們知道現在個資保護是高度的重視那麼所以還有現在詐騙很多欸你這些資料如果拿去讓他成為詐騙的人頭目"},{"start":9810.545,"end":9819.911,"text":"你怎麼還給我們民眾啊我資料給你農運會欸你怎麼可以行政部門去做一個讓農運會有機會成為詐騙集團的這個帳號啊該不該打屁股啊怎麼有可能去做這種事情離譜的政策之外還沒有管控誰銷毀"},{"start":9833.428,"end":9835.61,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":9850.464,"end":9863.694,"text":"人民的信賴保護原則,真正以他們的個資保護啊!現在我們所有農委會的會員都很緊張耶!我會不會被印出去直接就拿去賣了一個億一個賬號五千塊!我統統成為詐騙的賬號耶!部長你聽到這你就會嚇到耶!"},{"start":9872.026,"end":9899.608,"text":"太恐怖了欸我想跟委員說明就是其實農會的選舉農業部的立場就是要盡量去確保它的公平這是一個大表決但是以現在的做法的確後面的提供這樣的一個資料書面的就是可以引印出來的資料雖然說有浮水印但是後面的監督銷毀的機制沒有的時候的確會照著委員所說的所以我們會來檢討"},{"start":9901.109,"end":9913.159,"text":"就是在怎麼樣在維持一個公平的一個機制下去檢討他的一個針對這個名冊的閱覽或是什麼樣的一個新的一個規定人們也很恐慌所以本期具體建議你趕快去檢討一週內提出方案"},{"start":9917.162,"end":9940.316,"text":"重點在於你草案中允許合格的候選人在一定的規範下得去查閱選舉人名冊這是公平的大家要公平但是不得對選舉人名冊有抄錄有攝影有擬印有聳讀還有錄音或者其他複製或者是保存的行為對不對"},{"start":9941.997,"end":9943.298,"text":"這個一定不可以的。」"},{"start":9964.502,"end":9969.706,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":9986.577,"end":9990.541,"text":"是,如果那個方案很順利的話,這就馬上就預告了。對,完全預告程序,馬上就公告。是。部長,你聽到這個,我真的覺得我們的農民很可憐。到有的資料都這樣公開的,你現在如果詐騙拿來當每一個帳號,你怎麼辦啊?"},{"start":10005.619,"end":10013.027,"text":"農業部去設置一個讓全國農會、漁會成為有可能是詐騙集團帳號的戶頭,這個太恐怖了,所以禁訴好不好?好,禁訴!禁訴!好!"},{"start":10022.638,"end":10040.995,"text":"處理都不對就要改啦 對不對好 我們有達成共識照那個時間一週內拿出你們的修法一個如果程序OK這個內容OK大家就一個月內預告程序完成最後一個議題你那個荔枝春香可以炒來吃嗎你有沒有吃過"},{"start":10042.697,"end":10067.955,"text":"你吃不吃?不吃你農師華可以去叫荔枝去去拿荔枝春香來炒給人家看這是什麼情形啊?這個這個我已經齁這個地形是到底怎麼造出來的?這太離譜了很離譜啦阿你有沒有吃過荔枝春香用炒的?沒有阿可以吃嗎?那個環境教育在環境教育裡面的一個課程但是這個課程也不適當啦對啊阿你有沒有吃過?沒有對啊你覺得吃嗎?"},{"start":10072.588,"end":10072.608,"text":"案。"},{"start":10089.5,"end":10090.28,"text":"刑事委員邱議瑩等19人擬具"},{"start":10127.129,"end":10130.072,"text":"主席有請農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長這個主要針對委員的提案這提案內我看主要集中在第七條的部分就是說這個基金的編列那金融市都"},{"start":10149.991,"end":10178.28,"text":"我看那些提案很奇怪,應設置農村再生基金。農村再生基金不是已經收設置了嗎?110就宣布了啊,就設置對不對?這應該是改成,如果要真的要推動的話應該是應增加對不對?應增加嘛齁?對。那你這個金額不管3600億分10年編列,或者是4500億分20年編列,你如果按照相關的財政紀律,"},{"start":10179.687,"end":10204.967,"text":"法相論規定法律案要徵出你要具體彌補的財源在哪裡?這不是你的提案對不對?法院提案它是立法機關制定或修正法規不能徵定固定經費額度或比率的保障對不對?那你這個部分會不會自然難行?如果通過第七條不管是誰的版本"},{"start":10206.354,"end":10230.116,"text":"如果真的是在立法院通過會不會自然難行?我想因為他本身立法已經產生紀律法已經規定了如果這樣定是違法的嘛所以通過了以後那個就等於我們行政單位是沒辦法做因為整個預算的編列是由行政由農業部向行政院申請和定以後處理就違反財政紀律法嘛你不能"},{"start":10230.737,"end":10236.312,"text":"定特別額度,也不能定特別的比率嘛,對不對?那你的第七條是什麼?"},{"start":10238.94,"end":10261.595,"text":"對,以農業部理事長,我們沒辦法支持這樣子直接明定。你可以用折中的方案,比方說你用這個中長期計畫。是。你在過去的這個1500億,大概什麼時候會用完?大概116年。對。那你有沒有所謂,那是一期、二期、三期、四期是不是?第四期,對。第四期用完大概就沒有錢了。大概還有5.5億。還有5.5億。是。那你有沒有第五期?"},{"start":10265.711,"end":10293.96,"text":"沒有,那我們以農業部里長我們還會繼續推但是雖然說基金你如果繼續推你就不能用現在這個方式用第七條的方式嘛對不對是那因為你要先找到裁員嘛對對不對好,你知道沒有辦法用這個原來的方式在過去2010年我們這個制定這個法院的時候的那時候的背景所以你可以用中長期計畫向行政院爭取經費啊對或者用公務預算來支援而不是用基金嘛是"},{"start":10294.56,"end":10298.064,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第12條及第十五條條文"},{"start":10314.932,"end":10317.813,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11會期經濟委員會第12會期經濟委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":10333.018,"end":10334.319,"text":"條例第二條及第十五條條文"},{"start":10349.174,"end":10369.11,"text":"這個其實我們已經在做了,那委員的版本其實更明確的把這個全國性的農村整體計畫縣市到鄉鎮的齁,這個串在一起的話,其實是好事。農村再生是好的,增加更多的元素,增加更多的方式。"},{"start":10369.91,"end":10387.899,"text":"所以這個部分你也樂觀其成,但是你要趕快落實,你就今天通過之後,如果這個合同通過之後,我希望你能夠趕快啟動相關的作業。會,一定會的。那另外我問一下,這個第五期之後"},{"start":10389.195,"end":10416.076,"text":"第五期之後,你們預計,第五期大概就沒有錢,第五期在11、7年到120年度,那大概你就沒有預算了嘛,那你們預估針對第五期一定要繼續再做,對不對?你不能再用基金了嘛,基金已經用完了,你繼續用中長期計畫,你預估大概要變多少錢?我們以現在過去3到5年,我們對農村的支持大概一年到100億左右,100億上下。"},{"start":10417.097,"end":10421.74,"text":"以這樣的一個額度,四年大概是400億的額度。對,第三期也是400多億,第一期比較少,第一期是剛剛開始以人力培育為主,大概是287億"},{"start":10438.772,"end":10440.553,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":10460.078,"end":10473.907,"text":"有些目標值包括這個有六項你也知道嘛我就不詳述了那有些是成績一年不如一年創造機會第三期的時候才是第二期的這個一半不到"},{"start":10475.084,"end":10475.425,"text":"疫情的關係"},{"start":10495.345,"end":10515.734,"text":"理解,我可以說明,像這個指標其實只是低層的,我們更希望說他創造就業機會,那後面的就業機會帶出來的經濟效益是什麼?其實也要更具體的描述,這個我有請我們同仁針對這個部分,層下的部分應該更具體。對對對,好,這希望你們改善,另外我請這個岳屬也來,這個張署長。"},{"start":10517.715,"end":10535.345,"text":"有關於綠色和平針對台灣遠洋一夜的部分,他的一些影片或者他的一些說法對台灣的遠洋一夜是非常不公平的。我們很多與會也表達抗議。除了請他們下架之外,他們下架有下架嗎?"},{"start":10537.087,"end":10552.796,"text":"對,跟委員報告,到目前為止還沒有?還沒有下架,你們要有積極的動作,因為啊,這個臺灣確實是被美國兩度被列入強迫勞動清單,但是我們已經做了很大的改善,對不對?但是有改善不能被恣意的抹黑啊。"},{"start":10553.476,"end":10575.475,"text":"所以我希望說這個部分根本就不是台灣的漁船嘛然後這些這個很多影片的內容都是這個中國的無良漁船所做的肆意的連結所以你現在既然沒有辦法讓他下架那有沒有可能協助相關的漁會甚至用法律的手段呢"},{"start":10576.437,"end":10576.837,"text":"答案。"},{"start":10601.991,"end":10629.094,"text":"他如果綠色白瓶如果這樣子的打壓抹黑台灣的遠洋漁業他綠色白瓶也是在台灣一個組織啊那如果他日後的這個組織募款是對台灣的遠洋漁業不利的話那是不是也要有進一步的管制做人呢是NGO組織其實他有他的使命但是他不能用這樣肆意抹黑的方法去影響一個產業那我覺得我們必須把這個事實向外面來陳述他已經影響我們產業的發展"},{"start":10630.895,"end":10655.461,"text":"那你必須要有這個行政部門要拿出你們的管制或者約束或者警示說你這樣的做法已經傷害了我們園養業那你如果再不改善那我們用相關的做法除了用法律訴訟之外我會針對你的這個募款做一些的限制或管控這個你們應該去做是相關的方法跟策略我們整體來研議"},{"start":10657.182,"end":10680.069,"text":"另外洛農,洛農我還是覺得那天質詢之後你們有去洛農做一個相關的相關的輔導這部分我希望說地方關注幾個重點我想這個洛農部分這個薰牧師也有去嘛你洛農輔導的中層計畫這部分的進度跟內容要跟洛農做相關的討論"},{"start":10682.456,"end":10703.896,"text":"對,我跟委員說明齁,就是若龍的計畫現在已經合訂了齁,但是合訂的經費並不是我們原來提的29億,那有一部分我們會繼續去爭取,大概18億左右,但是有一部分是針對那個整個前段的這些除料的部分,"},{"start":10705.077,"end":10709.922,"text":"我們會再去跟行政院去勝負。對,我們一定會往這個目標來做。是,了解。這個絕對沒問題。沒有問題。因為預算一共。"},{"start":10727.679,"end":10730.38,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案案》案"},{"start":10767.798,"end":10768.46,"text":"我們休息三分鐘"},{"start":10962.234,"end":10962.254,"text":"案。"},{"start":10984.517,"end":10996.398,"text":"委員好部長好今天來談這個推動農村再生的相關問題這個省這個條例那本席想就我們這個農村再生"},{"start":10998.769,"end":11004.07,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條"},{"start":11028.817,"end":11045.57,"text":"我們中央農村再生到底只是想要消耗預算還是你真的要輔導農村再生你就回答這個問題選擇題我們一定是輔導農村再生為目標對為目標嘛那第一個現在很多農村人口老化問題你怎麼你怎麼去解決"},{"start":11046.391,"end":11064.344,"text":"現在很多他想要農村再生但是他就是人口老化他沒有這個年輕人或投入者這個比較有困難這第一個你等一下整體回覆如果沒有時間不夠請提供書面第二個行政核銷問題太過"},{"start":11067.006,"end":11091.538,"text":"原格,本席舉例,這個農村再生的過程比如說我們有共餐或者是有要用餐具那我現在跟餐廳借餐具租餐具沒有辦法合銷因為你們規定和這個對方開的發票他一定要是租賃業者那餐廳又不是租賃業者可是我真的跟餐廳"},{"start":11092.759,"end":11093.2,"text":"租借條例第十五條條文"},{"start":11107.794,"end":11128.908,"text":"所以這一塊我要反映出來但除了這個還有很多包括師資他找師資的時候有時候核銷也有各種我想你們要去了解很多這個核銷的問題跟困難包含驗收後面還有很多維護年限的問題再來第三個就是傳承與推動農村再生需要長時間的推動那經驗的傳承我們發現很多人"},{"start":11135.41,"end":11152.689,"text":"有經驗的不一定願意傳承那真心想推動的他又問不到所以再來就是很多就是跟在地的業者所以變成有業者願意做才來做但是他不一定是真的符合我們的農村的需求"},{"start":11153.449,"end":11166.06,"text":"所以本席一開始問的你農村再生你是為了農村再生我不是為了消耗預算我也不是為了迎合業者好再來第四個輔導員的問題很明顯的很多鄉村跟我說輔導員都不明確指導鄉親去請教我們的輔導員竟然說你去問其他人"},{"start":11175.948,"end":11201.566,"text":"那請問要輔導員做什麼?這一些問題都是我們要推動農村再生很困難的所以本席建議我們農村再生計畫一定要設立單一窗口來輔導而且你能夠簡化流程再來怎麼樣來解決人力的問題提高這些社區的提案意願那這個部分部長你可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":11202.907,"end":11227.242,"text":"我想剛才委員幾個問題我非常簡單的回答齁就第一個就是老化的問題我們希望引領青年回來那青年回來一定背後要有個支持系統沒有支持系統他只是在農村做工作我覺得他很容易再流失所以那個支持系統在我們下一次的施政的報告我們會把它提出來那第二個部分就是有關於行政效率的核效的部分齁我們也會重新檢討"},{"start":11228.303,"end":11229.124,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具"},{"start":11249.395,"end":11270.341,"text":"所以用相互的觀摩去彌補這個區塊未來我們會有更好的系統那第四個是輔導員的部分那其實農村再生裡面我們花了非常多的人力的培育其中有一個區塊就在輔導員所以啊那為什麼輔導員都不輔導所以這個部分我想我們一定要去加強那做不好真的要打屁股啦因為輔導員是最重要的核心"},{"start":11271.241,"end":11298.034,"text":"所以您最後一個問題是單一的窗口我們現在基本上有一些單一的窗口但是可能單一的窗口還是比較細啦也許我們會看看看怎麼來解決這些問題因為有些是縣市政府的部分嘛有些是中央的部分我們看怎麼樣去做整併或做連結讓它的行政效率會變快一點本席很開心部長有了解而且也知道有一些執行上的困難最後"},{"start":11300.807,"end":11315.919,"text":"針對今天審的第七條我們1500億的基金即將用完有很多委員提出撥補的修法那農業部的意見到底是什麼?你們到底贊不贊成委員提案撥補基金的修法方向?"},{"start":11316.901,"end":11331.92,"text":"我想基金很明確的在116年會見底但是我們現在有一個機制是可以再去請證相關的經費但是因為委員所提的版本它違反了財政紀律法裡面"},{"start":11333.081,"end":11355.8,"text":"以農業部的立場我們沒辦法支持直接在上面寫明多少金額。因為我們看國發會是沒意見但主計總署反對所以你們是針對委員版本可能不適合但是你們覺得也是要看怎麼找財源來撥補你們的意見是這樣嗎?國外沒有反對是國外是支持我們的立場而不是說他們"},{"start":11356.801,"end":11361.723,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案 案 及第十五條條文修正草案 案 及第十五條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":11375.57,"end":11398.112,"text":"新修正的這些條裡面還有國土計畫如果一一四年四月落地開始實施以後他會有一個對接像委員裡面提到的一些全國性的部分是整體的然後縣市的部分他會根據國土計畫裡面的分區的功能去做相關的對應的處理我們有一個對應的配套的一個作為在後續所以那你依據哪一個"},{"start":11399.818,"end":11425.275,"text":"同樣的,我們還是依據現有的,都要這個15條第一項的部分也本來就...15條原本沒有第一項吧?對,然後現在...那現在新增?沒有,現在可以執行,只是委員的版本是讓它更文字化,那更文字化的話以後的依據會更明確。所以你們是認同的?對,我們認同它的那個修正的這些條文,讓它更明確。好,好,了解。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。"},{"start":11430.748,"end":11446.636,"text":"接下來我們請洪孟楷委員請做詢答謝謝主席謝謝麻煩請農業部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":11456.331,"end":11471.065,"text":"部長,我知道幾位委員也都有針對荔枝春相的議題來跟你就教。你也講到說要深刻檢討。但我真的很懷疑,農業部這已經不是第一次發生創意食材的爭議。"},{"start":11472.714,"end":11472.734,"text":"案。」"},{"start":11489.716,"end":11504.354,"text":"我當然也說實在話啦我覺得公務員有創意其實本席開周明義長公務員有創意我覺得孟承祐上不是壞事為什麼因為我們要鼓勵大家要做事過去的文化是說多做多錯少做少錯啊不做不錯"},{"start":11505.115,"end":11526.238,"text":"所以我乾脆我就不要去做我就沒有錯不會被變成新聞焦點當然今天的一個爭議是在於是說明明不是一個可食用的食材你變成是一個食用那引發爭議跟衛福部這邊所以未來如果說要推廣任何的一個活動有可能跨部會要先做討論這點你同意嗎我跟委員說明齁"},{"start":11527.159,"end":11546.945,"text":"就是以現在目前的研究單位他們在開發相關的食材他們會搜尋對現在目前衛福部是不是可用食材但是國外已經開始是一個可用食材所以他們覺得說有機會在國內變成可用食材他們就開始研發了所以現在是要"},{"start":11548.2,"end":11550.683,"text":"修正草案案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":11569.444,"end":11596.462,"text":"我們大概半年會有一個把我們開發的這些相關的可能的項目目前沒有列到可用食材的話我們會提給他然後看他們的意見然後開始我們會準備相關的資料因為有些資料需要獨立試驗我們就會去啟動這方面的研究所以部長講到一個新點喔所以你是接下來要請衛福部認定荔枝村巷它是可用食材沒有 這個要看"},{"start":11597.222,"end":11613.763,"text":"本身的可用食材是可被消費者接受的。這個接受不是口味的接受,還有觀念的接受。觀感的接受,還有這個大家的飲食文化的接受。對,這個非常重要,如果不符合我們的飲食的話,我們絕對不能推。是嗎?"},{"start":11614.684,"end":11623.472,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第十五條條文修正草案：楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":11642.648,"end":11662.86,"text":"那結果沒有符合相關法規這一個部長我其實要問的其實是後面更重要的問題為什麼要去推廣油炸荔枝春夏是不是因為荔枝春夏它就是某種程度上有危害到我們現在的一個環境跟生活我跟委員說明在實際的狀況是它是在一個環境教育的課程"},{"start":11663.5,"end":11679.482,"text":"那因為環境教育的課程他只是去展示可能在其他的國家是可以用的他只是在那邊去做一個示範並沒有說去做到推廣的這個動作部長但是我們現在在講的是荔枝村上他是近年來新興的入侵外來走"},{"start":11680.283,"end":11702.395,"text":"然後他也對於中南部來說對於荔枝或是龍眼都造成嚴重的危害甚至本席的選區淡水地區也有民眾講說他現在不是在果樹上發現他是在一般的田間一般的民間走路散步的時候發現無患者的樹枝上面就會有三到五枝的荔枝村下"},{"start":11704.236,"end":11709.377,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":11734.266,"end":11757.986,"text":"除了用農藥除了用其他的這個生態平衡來講有沒有其他可能可以抑制這個外來種害蟲的一個方式那我現在要問的其實比較更直接就是說那對於荔枝春象在各縣市越來越多了那造成我們民眾的一個生活或說有疑慮也有講到荔枝春象他的毒液他的這個汁液會有毒會造成皮膚的潰爛"},{"start":11759.187,"end":11785.255,"text":"那我們現在有沒有中央明確的規定跟方式?我跟委員報告齁,就是第12屆的防治現在最大的盲點就是他並沒有啟動區域的防治,而是個別的防治。那這個區域防治不只是在農業區喔,農業區要有區域防治,現在有很多休閒的步道有沒有,也會發生到旁邊的樹木會掉到一些那個,所以我一直認為,就是其實我幾年前就開始一直在"},{"start":11785.955,"end":11801.213,"text":"在臺東市在農事所的時候我一直推他的共同房子除了農業部門也要跟交通部門對一起來做共同的房子這樣的話才能夠把那個密度往下降沒錯這個是我想後續我們也會繼續努力的是"},{"start":11801.613,"end":11830.364,"text":"所以現在才講啊因為各縣市政府他可能也有這個局處之間的一個協調是不是只是農業局的問題嗎他可能觀光局、交通局等相關的局處那但是對於上位等於中央主管機關我們農業部怎麼樣可以給各縣市政府有一個清楚明白的指引讓各縣市政府能夠跨局處來去做一個統一這個農業部是不是應該要動作我覺得有一部分是農業部的責任我們應該把這些防範的指引要寫清楚"},{"start":11831.084,"end":11849.589,"text":"然後因為跨部門、跨局處的部分可能會依據不同的地方政府的局處之間的一個溝通平台。那我想我們農業部應該會跟主要的縣市去討論一個公共方式的。現在比較氾濫的荔枝村鄉哪幾個縣市?除了湯南部?"},{"start":11850.169,"end":11877.961,"text":"新北市算不算?高屏江南以外那新北市還有中張頭這邊都有其實大部分的縣市都有而且像都會區的話可能都在步道有沒有步道反而會多就是本期的選區也有民眾在臉書社團之後貼文說他們去走散步的步道在樹上發現荔枝春夏那也提醒說大家要小心避免說被皮膚遭受到它的滋液那"},{"start":11878.541,"end":11893.057,"text":"案 本席比較具體的建議,部長是不是應該找幾個你現在已經掌握比較現實嚴重的現實來討論並且有一個比較清楚明白的質疑來去做防治?可以,這個我們可以做得到多久做到?一個月內?"},{"start":11893.698,"end":11910.285,"text":"一個月之內我們一定會跟第一個我會先跟交通部的觀光局那邊去做因為那個跟交通有關的完了以後才會召集主要的如果是都會區的話就是以交通部觀光局為主他絕對不是只是叫民眾"},{"start":11911.445,"end":11914.506,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":11927.27,"end":11928.671,"text":"事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":11949.381,"end":11970.838,"text":"反濫的這些縣市來去做一個討論該專業的投藥還是專業的驅蟲還是用生態平衡方式也有人講是說有其他的一物剋一物嘛荔枝村上他們可能怕的是其他的一個蟲那怎麼樣能夠用生物防治的部分生物防治來達到生態平衡這一些要請農業部定出質疑一個月內"},{"start":11971.539,"end":11972.119,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會議"},{"start":12000.691,"end":12002.811,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":12027.714,"end":12047.291,"text":"有了道熱病,然後我也請我們相關的單位下去看。然後我當時我就要求要全面啟動水稻收入保險理賠。因為我們有這個強制水稻保險之後,我們是把它排除在整個災害救助的一個範圍之外。對不對?好。"},{"start":12049.793,"end":12068.795,"text":"那現在我們去現場看完之後我想我我之後又跟署長說好就是說這個問題非常大我到現場一看我看到我們農感產和我們的分屬給我這份資料說我們所有的基準產量"},{"start":12070.12,"end":12098.822,"text":"各區的基準產量,我們是用這個基準產量來作為我們是不是理賠的一個標準,也就是我們今年我們的產量要跟這個基準產量去比,如果少於兩成才可以理賠。不然我告訴你,這張我今天還不是在選對的人,我今天一看都知道這根本無法理賠,"},{"start":12100.598,"end":12102.619,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文"},{"start":12118.942,"end":12118.962,"text":"案。"},{"start":12140.663,"end":12144.566,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第13條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12156.621,"end":12172.422,"text":"我講第一個齁就是當推動水稻收入保險的時候那基本上一定會有一個產量的基準值嘛這個基準值唯一現在目前的一個有公告的數據就是過農情調查裡面的水稻的產量"},{"start":12173.206,"end":12198.302,"text":"那這個水稻產量用五年的平均去頭去尾的平均它就是一個一個值在那邊部長你是聽到我說嗎對啊你五年的平均去頭去尾一年後一年賣啊連續都有兩年三年賣啊你整個平均數就拉低了啊你去頭去尾有什麼用沒有去頭去尾也會把高的去掉也會把低的去掉啊沒錯啊可是我平均就是拍你當一間古老攤啊你給我去頭去尾有什麼用沒有"},{"start":12201.744,"end":12219.978,"text":"去頭去尾在統計的標準裡面他是一個合理的一個數值。部長我已經說你在這五年當中已經就是有三年至四年本身就是敗了你去頭去尾只是把這個標準頭跟尾去掉可是我中間的三年我還是不好啊"},{"start":12221.019,"end":12243.067,"text":"我還是不好啊,你不好當中,你在這你要不要去看一下,你們的,你們署裡面有沒有給你看這個資料,你要不要看一下,在這裡,你看一下,你的數字,這裡面的數字都過低,都過低,這一拿出來,我一看說,啊靠這假啦"},{"start":12244.693,"end":12252.42,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次"},{"start":12266.616,"end":12276.485,"text":"都是盜熱病都空炮彈全部都淪陷了我現在就看今年有沒有辦法拿到補助我跟委員說明農業保險不是保險就想要拿到這個保險費它是一個風險的概念"},{"start":12282.711,"end":12295.36,"text":"他如果降低到百分之二十﹑少於兩成啊!兩成啊!少於兩成啊!他現在你的基準量就過低了他怎麼少於兩成啊!他的基準量就過低了!過去的平均就是過低那表示說他過去的產量就在那邊了所以他要比過去的產量更低到百分之二十啊部長你這麼講"},{"start":12312.182,"end":12337.798,"text":"你做代理保證的行政到現在要行政護理控保證之後你講話才完全不一樣啊!你完全不一樣啊!這是不一樣的!你應該去瞭解!這不是專業判斷!這是根本就是保險公司錢都客氣了!所以真的能夠拿到...所以現在所有的農民說這樣我不愛啊!我不要強制被水到保險!我敢問你!"},{"start":12339.019,"end":12349.823,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案案：立法院第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":12368.7,"end":12375.952,"text":"而且現在是極端期齁!部長你知不知你的農街長跟人家說,你就趕快噴油啊!你在講會議嗎?"},{"start":12379.693,"end":12382.995,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":12406.619,"end":12421.994,"text":"你有沒有地方去看?我跟楊瓊瓔說道德病本身的發生,有些品種比較抗病,然後另外就是說我們現在的道德病有一些預警的一個機制,然後我們也希望啟動區域的一個防治的作為。"},{"start":12424.036,"end":12449.867,"text":"所以相對的回到今天討論的主題就是他如果產量過低的時候我們會在評割點的部分就是產量調達的部分在那個區塊去增加那個評割點這樣子的話他產量低的時候他就可以有百分比有百分之二十的機會就是減產的時候就能夠得到理賠這是一個比較專業的所以我都尊重專業的這些改良廠去判斷的部分"},{"start":12450.796,"end":12459.631,"text":"我剛剛已經跟你講了改良場都可以講這種話了講說啊你就看金朋友啊那你跟我講說他會用什麼專業"},{"start":12461.445,"end":12488.953,"text":"他的專業就是叫人家擬本院啊我告訴你農民農民不可以管理嘛農民可以管理是你今天你提起的變化對他們來說那個阿明已經做成了他已經不服了所以你今天說增加平割點我接受就是他的產量因為現在已經受到影響了增加平割點在各區增加他的平割點這個我接受那要加到多少"},{"start":12490.033,"end":12516.638,"text":"這個我想由他們沒有 這個要由他們專業來判斷那個區域的你不要再說專業了嘛我剛剛就講了農幹長都開始講這種話了我會相信專業我是說你一定要有一個標準因為這個問題不是今天發生未來你沒有在今天定了一個標準定了一個狀態未來每年都會發生啊農民會對我們的強制稻米的保險會沒有信心啊"},{"start":12518.223,"end":12531.197,"text":"明明是我們政府好意,結果現在你知不知幾個地方說,我沒來沒來,你一天後啊,我沒來啊。重點是政府直接補助保險公司一十六個啊,不是補助給農民啊。"},{"start":12533.206,"end":12554.822,"text":"你知道嗎?好意變成今天變這個樣子欸!我非常謝謝委員的這些建議齁那我剛才說的齁產量的基準目前是沒辦法去動它的齁因為我不可能看到問題再去動這個產量的基準那產量的基準要用幾年或者是去頭去尾這個部分部長我給你一個第一"},{"start":12556.144,"end":12569.559,"text":"現在因為這件事情發生當然我們不能去動前面的彩蛋因為這個是一個制度好來現階段今年發生了我們增加評格點對不對是對增加評格點"},{"start":12570.981,"end":12571.901,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":12590.37,"end":12598.316,"text":"所以表示我們現在的制度是有狀況的 是有問題的 我們要重新檢討你如果要繼續走下去 我跟你說 農民都批評了啦 農民說這樣我不喜歡我不要你強制給我水稻保險 你乾脆給我回歸到我的理賠機制嘛你給我我的災害救助嘛 會有這個狀況欸欸今天我們去回家沒時間 我告訴你 這個已經是台南全面囉"},{"start":12617.19,"end":12622.814,"text":"沒有全面特定的地區,我們了解的是特定地區我告訴你啦,現在就是幾個地方新市、後壁、關田、新營、下營、柳營這幾個地方這個地方後續還會陸續出來喔這個都是主要的產區喔主要的產區都已經發生問題了,你說沒轉名"},{"start":12645.575,"end":12662.748,"text":"你活在自己的世界嗎?我絕對不是齁因為相關的剛才說道德病他是有一些特定的品種他發生的頻度會比較高那有一些品種他發生但是發生的頻度比較低那你如果去看他的確是有道德病但是道德病的影響程度是不一樣的"},{"start":12665.43,"end":12685.407,"text":"這幾個地方都是我們去調查的我們親自去調查的這幾個地方已經發生了盜熱病已經發生了空炮彈然後我剛剛所講的部長麻煩就是增加平割點在各區增加平割點讓他整個的實質的產量可以適時呈現"},{"start":12686.588,"end":12701.343,"text":"這個很重要第二個要重新檢討所有水稻收入保險理賠的機制這個機制是有問題的你用這所謂的過去五年的產量然後用今年產量去比較這是有問題的那根本沒領到一張名單讓你理賠到啦"},{"start":12706.577,"end":12711.081,"text":"這個拜託一定要檢討一個月!我不管啦!就一個月啦!怎麼辦多久?好!多久?好!那多久?多久?好!三個月!"},{"start":12721.909,"end":12725.45,"text":"三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文"},{"start":12748.055,"end":12748.296,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12760.211,"end":12785.357,"text":"其實部長因為現在軟化的問題包括我們待會要實施這個討論的第七條裡頭那一些項目你也請你們幕僚再去盤點一下因為現在軟化的問題產生出來的並不一樣的形態不一樣我們好不容易去通過保險制度這個是我們大家藍綠白搭奮鬥有成"},{"start":12787.577,"end":12809.787,"text":"那如果我們奮鬥出來的條文是沒有辦法讓民眾拿到,那這個就很難過。對,沒有意義。所以你們跟保險公司可能還要去討論它的項目類別是什麼。要不然我明明我都想不到,我又保養又沒有,我一陣子要做什麼。這個可能陳理委員的重點是在這裡,所以趕快去盤點。謝謝。接下來我們請陳冠廷委員請做詢問。"},{"start":12819.787,"end":12822.011,"text":"我們中午就剛剛說過不休息謝謝主席麻煩請部長我們再請陳部長謝謝"},{"start":12836.09,"end":12851.071,"text":"部長好,我們今天來談一下這個農村再生基金的總額提高的部分。那我想依照這個財政紀律法的規定,法律案如果要增加政府的稅出,我們要具體的指明彌補資金的來源。"},{"start":12854.714,"end":12872.404,"text":"我來自農業縣,所以我是很認同說農村再生基金是必須要提高的因為我們大家都知道說許多農村的這些房舍老舊需要翻新等等那整個狀況那是迫在眉睫的那我根據今天的報告農村再生基金的餘額是497億元"},{"start":12874.605,"end":12897.236,"text":"草案：立法院的同仁們不管是藍綠草野都認為這個不足以用來翻新重建老舊的農村所以我們才會提案要修法那有些委員主張是從法定基金的1500億提高到3600億有些委員主張到4500億那不管是3600億或者是4500億我都覺得對農村的幫助是非常大的那我想要請教"},{"start":12898.8,"end":12917.579,"text":"如果說我們先從最基礎的提高到3600億跟法定的1500億元大概有相差2000多億如果分20年做編列預算的話那每年大概是增加105億元的概念這個財源農業部找不到嗎做不到嗎"},{"start":12920.097,"end":12936.937,"text":"我想委員版本所提到的其實我也非常謝謝委員就是擔心這個農村再生在推動的時候經會沒辦法持續啦然後有設計了這樣的一個版本以現在農業部如果說用這樣的方式因為委員的版本裡面有明確的"},{"start":12937.938,"end":12938.919,"text":"條例第十五條條例第十五條條例第十五條條例第十五條條例第十五條條例"},{"start":12967.412,"end":12971.654,"text":"我相信行政院應該也可以去接受而且我們會用最大的力量去爭取行政院的一個經費"},{"start":12987.622,"end":12987.642,"text":"案。"},{"start":13009.304,"end":13009.324,"text":"案 。"},{"start":13031.457,"end":13047.369,"text":"他必須要包括我們一起來思考整體就是說農村再生條例裡面本身也要來講因為不只是預算的部分法條的部分兩個都要共同進去思考我們不能夠我覺得我們的立法委員提出3600億、4500億或是等等不同的金額的時候"},{"start":13048.444,"end":13063.282,"text":"我們提出來的這個原因跟他這個背景的立場我們要先想清楚我們才會好去執行那既然是由行政院我們現在講行政立法來分級沒關係我們講行政院你剛剛提到說財政紀律那一百零五億這個是做不到的嗎?"},{"start":13065.609,"end":13080.095,"text":"我個人覺得就是說我們如果把這個計畫書的相關的成果跟我們要做的提到行政院應該可以得到行政院的支持那行政院支持完了以後主席總處那邊就會去找相關的財源來合撥給我們"},{"start":13081.135,"end":13090.162,"text":"那我想這也是我們所有草原的立法委員大概提出這樣的法案的背景跟理由。這個源頭很重要。再麻煩我們這個所有的與會的這個過去農委會我們的所有的官員要一起來想想看。當然我們剛剛講到的法條的部分"},{"start":13105.235,"end":13108.901,"text":"這個法制上面來講就是有些就是已經過世有些是因為財產的產權的問題這個必須由農業部"},{"start":13113.74,"end":13141.15,"text":"全面來去思考一下怎麼樣來解決這個問題不然我看到很多都是直接荒廢在那邊十年前是這樣五年前是這樣今年去還是這樣我不希望未來的五年十年還都一樣我跟委員說明像特別農村社區的確有一些產權一些比較多的產權人然後有一些糾紛的部分後續我想我們會針對農村的整個空間的一個規劃去做適度的一個界定包括一些土地的一個界定跟農地的界定"},{"start":13141.97,"end":13169.265,"text":"這個部分我想不一定要全部納在法的條文裡面在後面的執行的細節我們可以去做相關的這些處理如果說可以不動到法就能夠處理的話那當然是更好啦因為很多農村的那個地級啦地級的這些東西可能會牽涉到內政部所以我們也會跟內政部去做共同的討論還有一些產權的部分還有一些最主要是我們農業部有一個農村的整體規劃的話我們就可以說服內政部啦所以相對的我想"},{"start":13169.885,"end":13181.971,"text":"農業部還是一個組織單位,我們會盡可能的去做這樣的一個思考。好,那再幫忙部長,這一個是很重要,因為我看閒置在那邊還是不好的。好,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝。我們請鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在現場,我們請游浩委員請做詢問。"},{"start":13210.316,"end":13210.576,"text":"綜合國際部長"},{"start":13219.38,"end":13220.341,"text":"事務局副部長"},{"start":13249.119,"end":13276.356,"text":"之前我們集體的政務代表陳榮生代表有提到這個封農的部分天災救助的部分因為其實在南投農業縣其實產蜂蜜的地方其實都蠻多的但是因為天然的這個氣候變遷那包括在這次包括荔枝、龍眼它這個讓我們封農他們這個蜜的這種產出啊產量那是比以前以往銳減許多那其實"},{"start":13277.156,"end":13295.294,"text":"現在目前來講南投縣我們當時也曾經多次的也跟農委會這邊提出希望能夠盡快能夠納入在這個農業天然災害救助辦法內那在本席今天也希望能夠藉著這個機會在520前還能夠請部長是不是可以正面來回應一下"},{"start":13295.894,"end":13311.045,"text":"那在這個蜂農的這個部分補助是不是有機會可以在這個五月以前那來協助我們的蜂農來納入這個天然災害的一個救助那請部長能夠正面回應我跟委員說明就是說過往我們的蜂"},{"start":13311.725,"end":13316.268,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":13336.781,"end":13357.434,"text":"那過往我們是用產業救助的部分我個人認為產業救助只是一時的所以我們經過內部討論也確定把因為蜜源不足而產生蜜蜂沒辦法產生足夠的蜂蜜的時候給予天然災害救助這第一點第二點就是這樣子的一個辦法我們已經修訂了應該是今天完成預告"},{"start":13359.827,"end":13359.847,"text":"案 。"},{"start":13376.502,"end":13390.078,"text":"今年度本身因為蜂蜜的部分所以這個部分我想包括我們的救助的這些補助的金額都有跟我們相關的蜂蜜協會大家討論是一個大家可以接受的一個額度"},{"start":13391.072,"end":13391.092,"text":"案。」"},{"start":13408.227,"end":13424.609,"text":"這次來講就是農業部動植物防疫檢驗所友善環境植物保護資產推廣計畫他的這個補助的部分那一般來講的話像以前其實他的補助的金額在111年的時候他其實是"},{"start":13425.35,"end":13431.774,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":13451.172,"end":13477.944,"text":"用生物資材本身的這些費用我們是鼓勵的啦那現在在去年度的話他原預算大概七千多萬後來因為預算的一些不足我們在年中的時候有一個追加預算去再去預注一些經費那今年度他的邊的經費大概跟去年額度原來的額度差不了多少那的確明顯的不夠啦"},{"start":13478.904,"end":13505.096,"text":"所以我後續會再看看它實際的狀況然後看看有沒有其他的經費是可以把它移到這邊來去做預注的這請問到經費的問題其實目前來講的話跟之前以往來講就發現去年是嚴重不足所以才補過來嘛那所以本系也希望說能夠比照去年一樣今年其實已經預期不足了那是不是盡力的來協助來補這個不足的部分對我想我們會盡力因為我們的很多預算齁"},{"start":13506.136,"end":13521.855,"text":"都是合定了以後再去處理的。那我們會盡努力的而不是每年在那邊找經費來挪來挪去。我想我們會讓這件事情的重要性讓行政院知道我們以後抱怨的經費的時候可以有所增加。"},{"start":13528.407,"end":13530.31,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議"},{"start":13544.778,"end":13560.807,"text":"我們中午不休息,延長開會時間。登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其余均已發言完畢,我們詢答結束。我們由陳昌明委員、莊嘉斌委員所提出的質詢列入公報刊"},{"start":13561.647,"end":13579.034,"text":"列入紀錄刊登公報：那書面質詢以及未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會。那我們現在進行審查《農村再生條例第二條第七條第十五條條文修正草案》現在進行廣泛討論。"},{"start":13581.701,"end":13602.103,"text":"沒有人登記我們請議事組人員宣讀所有條文宣讀完畢之後我們再進行協商請宣讀。農村再生條例委員張嘉郡等人提案第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為農業部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府"},{"start":13602.543,"end":13619.781,"text":"第七條除第一項修正為中央主管機關為推動農村永續發展及活化再生相關事項應設置農村再生基金新台幣3600億元並於本條例修正後十年內分年編列預算,其餘維持現行法條文。"},{"start":13620.362,"end":13645.433,"text":"委員邱議瑩等人提案。第七條第一項中央主管機關為推動農村永續發展及活化再生相關事項應設置農村再生基金新台幣4500億元並於本條例修正後20年內分年編列預算第二項第一款政府逐年編列預算至撥入第二款至第四款維持現行法條文第三項第一款維持現行法條文第二款"},{"start":13646.294,"end":13653.525,"text":"辦理農村活化再生之政策方針、全國農村再生總體計劃之擬定、審核執行等支出。"},{"start":13654.724,"end":13677.843,"text":"第三款,辦理直轄市縣市農村再生總體計劃、年度農村再生執行計劃及農村再生發展區計劃擬定、審核與其土地利用、農宅生活生產、生態、文化及景觀空間規劃配置、整建獎勵措施等支出。第四款,辦理農村農產業活化及其"},{"start":13678.563,"end":13700.308,"text":"條式轉型措施之規劃執行、場域建置等支出。憲刑法第三款至第九款一列至第五款至第十一款。第十五條中央主管機關因應農村再生政策方針就國土計劃、土地民智利用原則並因應氣候變遷及農村永續發展,擬定全國農村再生總體計劃。"},{"start":13702.108,"end":13720.957,"text":"指辖市或縣市主管機關應依全國及該縣市農村再生總體計畫之指導原則並就維護農業生產環境與農村景觀改善農村整體居住空間及環境引進農村轉型發展事業之需要依土地使用性質"},{"start":13721.997,"end":13734.065,"text":"理定農村再生發展區計畫指定實施地區及範圍進行分區規劃及配置公共設施為維護農業生產環境之完整及農村居住需求"},{"start":13735.305,"end":13761.633,"text":"有擴大既有農村建築用地需求者,得並同前項計畫擬定或通盤檢討處理。」委員楊瓊瓔等人提案第七條第一項,中央主管機關為推動農村永續發展及活化再生相關事項,應設置農村再生基金新台幣4500億元,並於本條例修正後20年內分年編列預算。第二項及第三項,同委員邱議瑩等人提案。"},{"start":13762.193,"end":13786.835,"text":"第十五條同委員邱議瑩等人提案,宣讀完畢。好,那我們現在進行協商吼,我們先看農村再生條例第二條,行政部門,張嘉郡委員等19人所提行這個農村再生條例第二條,行政部門來,請上,來請上說一下,來。"},{"start":13791.593,"end":13819.834,"text":"第二條同意。好,那各位同仁我們這個就依照張嘉俊委員的版本通過。來接下來我們第七條。第七條我想先請這個那個主席總書有來嗎?來你要不要先上來說明一下。還是那個各位同仁我們先請行政部門說明一下剛剛我有特別請農業部你們去討論這個方案有沒有文字內容出來?"},{"start":13820.748,"end":13845.251,"text":"我們現在因為文字的內容本身齁因為行政部門本身包括的經費來源可能還要再跟組董討論那我們內部可能還要有一些時間去協商沒有辦法在今天馬上就有一個很明確的而且能夠達到委員會的一個目的那你先請那個主席總書請說明一下來是主席各位委員各位先進大家好"},{"start":13848.662,"end":13858.111,"text":"財政紀律法的第七條裡頭的確是有明定各級政府及立法機關在制定或修正法律的時候不得增訂固定的經費。"},{"start":13865.733,"end":13890.387,"text":"不得增訂固定經費的額度或者是比率來保障,以免影響政府統籌運用資源的能力。」那這一次各個委員提案的版本會有去涉及提高固定經費額度這個部分,會使得政府資源的配置比較僵固,影響到政府彈性運用資源這個能力。而且目前"},{"start":13892.089,"end":13920.512,"text":"農村再生計劃每一年我們都是會依照行政院合定的計劃然後滾動的檢討它的執行方式跟經費需求每年都會據於編列預算來執行對於農村再生的業務也會給予支持那大家關心說如果基金用完的時候呢政府也會是這個基金的財務狀況來給予經費上的協助所以這個部分我們建議還是維持現行的條文以上"},{"start":13921.901,"end":13933.389,"text":"主席總署在委員還沒有提出的時候主席總署這邊有一個思考因為我們的農村再生條例通過的時候是以1500億的總額有匡列在那裡如果說因為116年"},{"start":13940.054,"end":13940.074,"text":"案。」"},{"start":13971.335,"end":13992.186,"text":"關於主席垂詢的這個部分因為法定的1500億這個基金的設置其實已經播足了所以如果把條文目前現行條文上面的農村再生基金1500億的這個條文把它刪除的話是不影響現在食物的運作以及現狀的"},{"start":13995.505,"end":14018.876,"text":"那這個各位同仁行政部門現在大家剛剛在巡討都知道說大家希望每一年還是一百億左右一直滾一直滾啦齁那大家的方向是一致只是文字要怎麼樣去做齁好我們現在請委員來來賴瑞榮委員張嘉俊委員然後賴瑞榮委員然後這個邱志偉委員好請"},{"start":14020.197,"end":14048.456,"text":"行政部門請聽清楚主席抱歉我有一個文字修正第七條第三款第四我這個文化資產這個上面是寫對但是其實我那個字打錯了寫文化資產所以麻煩可以更正一下嗎謝謝換賴委員問問那個張教委我們的新的已經文字我們主動幫你修了好"},{"start":14049.967,"end":14072.348,"text":"OK,謝謝,謝謝,很詳細,來,任委員。好,謝謝,我想我的看法是因為這個農村再生的部分,這個經費因為當時從通過之後1500億,事實上四期的部分政府也都持續有撥補進來,那每年大概也都會撥100億,所以基本上關鍵還是在於政府會持續的撥補,只要有撥補進來就會用得到。"},{"start":14072.908,"end":14100.053,"text":"那我是比較傾向建議你即使你編了1500億即使你改為3000億、4000億他每年還是需要撥補才會實際用到的所以那個額度多少其實反而不是關鍵所以我比較傾向既然這個運作了十幾年都穩健的運作我建議是不是還是維持現行的條文1500億就好那導致我們去督促政府每年要持續的來每一期每一期來編列我認為這個對於整個這個再生、農村再生的發展反而更有助益啦"},{"start":14100.633,"end":14125.053,"text":"建議維持現行條文。這個我剛剛在諮詢的時候有提到,那部長也明確答覆,如果按照這個,如果行政部門是要找到裁員,如果是立法部門,你要有,你不能針對特定金額或特定比率嘛齁,所以你不管是同位向來搬分,"},{"start":14126.246,"end":14130.709,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":14144.398,"end":14166.878,"text":"他已經答應,也承諾,會跟這個行政院爭取中長期的計畫,延續農村再生的相關的計畫作為而且額度不低於,我們可以做一個復旦結語,額度不低於現行的每年的支出嘛。這樣我們要修法啦。修法,你給他點頭修法,我們至少麻煩伊德博的執行。"},{"start":14168.308,"end":14193.423,"text":"如果可以請農業部承諾,供你未來你正常期計畫裡面,我不需要修法,正常期計畫裡面你第五期、第六期都能夠比照前面四期每年一百億的規模,那我們就問題就解決了。農村再生很重要,那需要裁員,那裁員他的來源不是這樣子,因為你這樣定的話,不管是這個四千五百億或三千六百億,都違反財政紀律法。"},{"start":14196.059,"end":14198.788,"text":"兩、兩、兩立法院委員不能有委員啊。所以現在的通過齁,他沒辦法執行"},{"start":14201.138,"end":14227.572,"text":"等到我入宮我建議你用這個附帶決議就是說每年度的計劃裡面你要延續農村再生計劃各項六項指標全部都要執行每年度的這個預算規模不得低於這個現行的一百億最起碼四當四百億而且一次要擬定中期中長期計劃到第五期到第六期這樣到現在還要八年"},{"start":14230.532,"end":14234.474,"text":"案 兩、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文"},{"start":14258.687,"end":14261.009,"text":"宣誓再生誓再生誓。」"},{"start":14279.643,"end":14292.312,"text":"而且他們分為四個階段那這個是第四個階段就是因為現在是到一百一十六年所以呢到一百一十六年就等於一千五百億全部都沒有了我們現在在思考要怎麼樣讓我們的農民有尊嚴讓農業部他有更寬廣的空間是這個所有都沒有違法全部都在這個裡面我再次強調齁好來接下來是陳景飛委員接下來邱議瑩委員"},{"start":14309.323,"end":14331.376,"text":"等他們講完謝謝主席其實為了農村的再生跟農民的一個發展我想我們都希望是錢更多更好這應該是大家為了整個農村的轉型但是我們是不是能夠做到或是我們"},{"start":14332.637,"end":14332.977,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":14353.097,"end":14353.177,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":14383.377,"end":14411.176,"text":"有些是要再加進來是可以再納入到我們整個農村再生的範圍裡面因為我們的變動太大了很多的農村的改變都已經是超出我們的預期很多年輕朋友願意回來我們應該給他更多的幫助所以很多的東西其實已經不敷在這個範圍裡面了我認為我們今天就這樣子草草率率的就這樣去討論其實不應該"},{"start":14414.478,"end":14438.551,"text":"從基金的這個預算再來在整個的一個用途的部分因為我自己也有提案我認為從這個用途都應該去做改變所以我是不是建議我們的主席我們今天如果在今天就要決定實在是有點草率我們是不是讓他們既然我們已經把球發出來了我們請農業部好好去思考"},{"start":14439.571,"end":14439.591,"text":"案。」"},{"start":14456.916,"end":14476.195,"text":"創生之後怎麼回歸到我們農村再生要怎麼去做銜接這個其實都有很多的一個細項要去處理的所以我認為從基金的部分從用途的部分我們都應該給農業部好好的時間去做重新的一些論述時間應該要給農業部好好的盤整一下"},{"start":14481.019,"end":14489.044,"text":"好謝謝陳廷輝委員那接下來我們邱議員委員在邱議員委員這個說這個的時候我先補充一句齁剛剛陳廷輝委員說我們今天審查這個不應該沒有那個不應該因為很緊張有你剛剛有講116年沒關係116所以現在在協商嘛現在在協商喔116年就已經沒有所以我們現在114年了很緊張"},{"start":14509.855,"end":14531.09,"text":"還有第113年還有來在我的體驗裡頭將跟於雷同的也就是第七條現在的用途跟101年的用途是有很多不一樣所以本席也特別針對這個土地利用、農宅、生活生產、生態、文化、景觀空間規劃、配置、整建、獎勵措施等等"},{"start":14532.711,"end":14541.355,"text":"因為現在就成如你說的有很多的青農我們連他實際上沒有土地但是他實際上年輕人從事農作我們都願意鼓勵年輕人給他們農保這個就是我們想盡一切辦法所以我也要預請行政部門"},{"start":14549.4,"end":14555.969,"text":"當我們在基層跑已經提出了不一樣的用途你們理所當然應該在第七條你們要提出你們的看法可以增加什麼可以減少什麼這才是我們要做的協商啊好不好我補充這一點齁好來那我們請那個邱議委員請發言"},{"start":14568.942,"end":14575.007,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":14594.089,"end":14613.005,"text":"第一項的最後我們加基金不足者由政府編列預算補充之然後農村再生基金來源如下一政府逐年編列預算之撥入如果做這樣的文字修正我不曉得農業部門能不能同意"},{"start":14615.189,"end":14628.601,"text":"委員發言到這裡,我們請行政部門一併說明,謝謝。好,謝謝委員的這些提案還有一些看法。剛才接近委員說用附帶決議的部分,我在這邊跟委員報告"},{"start":14631.457,"end":14651.324,"text":"我先回應剛才委員的意見嘛那委員剛才有那個邱議瑩委員有提到就是說用附帶決議的方式我在這邊報告99年度在立法的那個時間點有一個附帶決議基金151用完以後應該再撥500億1500億用完還要再撥500億所以在99年度的這個法通過以後就有一個附帶決議了"},{"start":14658.186,"end":14661.255,"text":"所以這個附帶決議到底它的效率是怎麼樣?可能"},{"start":14662.639,"end":14667.501,"text":"那個主席來這邊說一下,這個就是我們今天提案委員以及藍綠白委員緊張的。因為我們也知道那時候1500億怕不夠,所以再給一個單路500億,那時候因為這個條例是我從一而終去弄出來的。那我們也怕,因為現在的時空環境跟以往不一樣,以前的一年100億跟現在的一年100億你光通憑什麼你就不夠啊。"},{"start":14690.371,"end":14702.338,"text":"所以這個座戶待決我本席也是不同意的還是要請行政部門好好去研議這個是我希望的我們可以慢點時間但是因為討論又有共識數字各位同仁就是說其實我們指定的當然這個在財政紀律裡頭還有討論空間也不一定是錯但是我們的目標是一致要照顧農民所以我們如果數字我也同意數字不上去甚至連1500億要不要拿下來"},{"start":14720.027,"end":14742.699,"text":"這個我想再請行政部門再好好去想但是目的就是一定116年以後還是要繼續還是要繼續而且不是只有那500億啦一進攻出底線啦我就是怕說未來農業部就像乞丐一樣去拜託行政院我不同意這樣子的好不好好那你再說那剛才還有委員提到就是說如果把"},{"start":14743.579,"end":14766.89,"text":"就是再增加一個齁就是基金不足者由政府編列預算撥充資嘛那剛才邱委員的意見是這樣子嘛齁那剛才有詢問到竹總用這樣的方式齁跟我們現在的體力啦現在的齁他們是建議說就是由政府循預算程序撥款啦喔資撥款那個是那個那個你們的法律用語啦對意思是一樣的對那個意思一樣你請說明"},{"start":14771.54,"end":14788.151,"text":"謝謝主席跟針對剛剛邱委員所提的那個修正的文字啊邱委員的文字是基金不足者由政府編列預算播充之嘛那因為基金不足者怕將來會有人誤解說只要我不足"},{"start":14789.011,"end":14789.892,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":14811.951,"end":14830.328,"text":"這個部分我們剛剛在詢討,我這裡補充一下,就是農村再生基金之來源如下,那第一款裡頭,那它本來就是城鄉分園變略預算之撥入,但是如果在法律用語裡頭是政府循預算"},{"start":14831.309,"end":14855.81,"text":"程序之撥款。」這個跟邱議委員的意思是同樣的只是我們把它寫得比較比較就不足啦還是這樣啦我們這裡先保留好了對對對對沒關係我們先再討論一個有方案好那剛剛委員所討論的現在還有一項農村再生要持續做對對對對那目標大家都一樣還是說這個撥補的的"},{"start":14859.488,"end":14881.518,"text":"文字要怎麼寫?這個我們可能還要在系部去討論。好,那行政部門現在我們委員討論的,我先講一下看看,第七條的部分我們保留送學商,但是這個裡面有幾項要拜託行政部門。第一個,數字。"},{"start":14882.642,"end":14897.411,"text":"要不要拿掉?那我們委員剛才討論也可以拿掉沒關係我講一下第二個還有一個很重要的重點是行政部門拜託你們還辛苦的你的用途用途你要好好我們給時間好好去分析"},{"start":14898.251,"end":14922.64,"text":"那我們的目的就像剛才邱委員所說的跟陳任委員、賴任委員大概都會講目的就是還要延續按你們在行政作為當中要怎麼樣可以得到保障因為一個行政院底下有那麼多孩子你不一定是得寵的那萬一不得寵怎麼辦所以我們希望在文字上面給予助後盾來"},{"start":14923.92,"end":14924.22,"text":"懒惰委員"},{"start":14940.538,"end":14942.579,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":14965.274,"end":14979.809,"text":"只是他們在執行分四個階段執行所以錢不會不見而且當然有附帶如果不足再加500億所以換句話說整個農村再生條例最高如果在法制面裡頭最高2000億那這個絕對是不足的我們才會緊張說要怎麼做讓行政部門可以更靈活"},{"start":14989.357,"end":15016.262,"text":"我剛剛沒有說不要討論這個案子因為討論這個案子是必要的因為確實我們要去奠定說我們希望農村再生是要持續的只是說我剛剛講的是應該讓他們有一個時間去討論把金額的部分把用途的部分做一個很實質的討論因為現在的狀況完全不同所以再拜託部長"},{"start":15017.662,"end":15027.247,"text":"那各位同仁還有行政部門在這裡我們是不是第七條就針對剛剛所做的討論它的用途請行政部門以及我們所有委員大家再研討那今有的部分呢現在原則大家不寫在上面那至於1500億要怎麼樣做處理那也請行政部門跟主席總處這邊我們的目的就是希望116年之後"},{"start":15045.836,"end":15072.463,"text":"長長久久我們的農村再生條例一定要繼續推動照顧農民好不好那這一條第七條經過充分的討論我覺得這樣很好大家把內容實際討論出來越來越有焦點那就請行政部門你們儘速去討論討論有一個方向本席會再來召開這個這個這個協商好嗎各位同仁是不是做如此第七條我們就保留送協商好嗎"},{"start":15074.005,"end":15076.486,"text":"行政部門請作出明。"},{"start":15101.46,"end":15119.762,"text":"來,我們請宣讀協商結論。請宣讀。宣讀農村再生條例協商結論第二條趙委員、張嘉俊等人提案通過,第七條保留送院會處理,第十五條趙委員、邱議瑩等人及委員楊瓊瓔等人提案通過,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":15120.583,"end":15120.603,"text":"案。"},{"start":15140.697,"end":15160.499,"text":"請問有沒有異議?沒有?好,就通過。那我們討論事項所列的農村再生條例第二條、第七條及第十五條條文修正草案並按審查完據。那擬具這一個審查報告,報題報院會討論。請問需不需要交流一條呢?先生要啦。"},{"start":15161.62,"end":15177.696,"text":"要協商,願會討論的時候有本席來做說明。主席宣告,通過條文相關的法律用語,授權主席及議事人員整理。本日議程處理完畢,明天星期四上午9點繼續開會,現在休息。"},{"start":15185.651,"end":15190.748,"text":"我們是不是各位同仁那個協商是12點半我們繼續協商各位同仁謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15910","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68543dc8870a7b167e269e13353c436ea853be8d109af184be4cd537f49079f3ddb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如經復議，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T08:31:17+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:22:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10243,"委員發言時間":"08:31:17 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":2133.684,"end":2152.719,"text":"盈利事業僱用中高齡者及高齡者於申報所得稅時得在金額新台幣一千萬元額度內按薪資之己付金額之百分之一百五十自其當年度盈利事業所得額中減除其予以現行法同。委員王育敏等18人提案第29條修正第一項第二句末三字為前兩年其予以現行法同。委員邱若驊等20人提案第36條修正第二句首字為因其予以現行法同。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2165.23,"end":2185.528,"text":"好 那我們現在就來進行條文的討論那在第一案公會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案總共四案我們主條審查之前因為昨天沒有讓消防署還有權序部有一個完整的報告那經過這個禮拜一的討論我覺得"},{"start":2190.148,"end":2191.729,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚一、審查��"},{"start":2216.943,"end":2243.396,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進各位媒體朋友大家好消防署針對於消防人員職業安全事實上是我們重中之重在過去幾年從我擔任訓練中心主任到臺中市府到回到消防署事實上我們投注很多的心力在消防人員職業安全的部分當然消防人員是屬於公務人員他真的是在歷次的大法官解釋都有特別認為是"},{"start":2244.677,"end":2265.882,"text":"公務人員與國家關係是公法上的事務關係所以跟司法上的勞僱關係勞工這部分是不一樣的另外就是我們在國外的經驗裡面也只有少數的國家是有條件有門檻的方式具有消防人員的爭議權目前在"},{"start":2267.122,"end":2290.45,"text":"全序部以針對協會法作為一個完整的一個修正是不是建議主席等一下也讓全序部能夠做一個說明讓我們所需要的團結權跟協商權怎麼具備這是我們在整個報告裡面論述的一個首先提出的報告那詳細的素面資料請各位委員作為一個參閱那接下來就是跟各位委員報告就是"},{"start":2291.01,"end":2294.131,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2319.258,"end":2322.322,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件及責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任"},{"start":2337.302,"end":2355.041,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文修正草案案件事宜及其中一條條文�"},{"start":2359.586,"end":2368.951,"text":"除此之外,提升的同時就包括剛才所報告的無人機、救災機器人還有車輛裝備器材,裝備器材總共達到147億,這個在目前跟後續幾年會逐步的來落實這方面的一個採購跟添置。那車輛廳設跟訓練設施的部分大概有投入20億元。那車輛"},{"start":2383.498,"end":2408.323,"text":"﹑新設的救災車輛從我們一期計劃跟二期計劃一期計劃已經投注12億那二期計劃總共19億這都是由中央特別統籌分配稅款來做執行總共這樣汰換下來消防車可以汰換達到300部以上的消防車的汰換當然災害應變的韌性也投注49億那同時對民間的"},{"start":2410.763,"end":2424.755,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一、審判員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一、審判員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一、審判員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一、審判員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一、審判員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六"},{"start":2430.74,"end":2431.02,"text":"),委員王育敏"},{"start":2448.592,"end":2459.585,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次"},{"start":2465.291,"end":2481.802,"text":"目前消防局院另外一個主力是從警專警察中心學校擴大招生這個部分來執行原來消防科的學生只有150位我們跟警專來協商他可以擴充到400位所以預期未來每一年可以培養到1400位的消防人力"},{"start":2483.274,"end":2510.195,"text":"那在整個課程的部分就是為了推動消防治安所以我們事故安全觀消防人員自救快速救援小組就同時出事情以後我們的救援能量是怎麼來執行當然繩索、車會的救助、安全駕駛還有我們新式的體能訓練也是參考美方的一個做法來強化我們消防人員核心的職能跟他們發生事件以後怎麼自救互救的能量"},{"start":2512.332,"end":2538.634,"text":"除此之外,在中期的部分管理系統的強化,這是我們在整個職業安全從制度面、法制面跟計畫面來推動我們消防職業安全,來建立我們消防安全跟健康的框架,保護我們消防經驗的安全。為了推動這個案子,我們在事實上在111年開始,很感謝我們治安署跟勞研所共同幫忙,也簽署了IMOU來協助消防署"},{"start":2538.814,"end":2566.22,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":2566.44,"end":2594.922,"text":"當成我們在整個推動的一個主要參考內容那推從第一年推動以後呢市場有相當基礎那第二年112年還有8個機關持續在推動那今年剛才跟署長職安署署長跟勞援所這邊在部長支持之下會繼續推動16個消防機關的一個推動那目前我們提到也提報了為了推動消防職安也從推動職業安全衛生中程計劃"},{"start":2595.703,"end":2612.75,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案, 目前已經在5月10號報導行政院,預計是從114年開始推動。那同時為了讓消防人員的事業安全能夠有法規的一個依據,那也不要影響到一般的公務人員,也不要造成勞安這方面的推動的一個隔閡。"},{"start":2615.692,"end":2629.91,"text":"μη一般公務員還高甚至應該比勞工的安全還高這是我們在參考國外做法以後所以我們這一次也把這個消防法修正案增列治安專章已經報到行政院那接下來會報到大院來做一個審議"},{"start":2631.749,"end":2633.251,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":2649.153,"end":2678.519,"text":"),委員鐘央來做一個整體的一個輔導那每個縣市有相對的輔導團隊因為消防人員的食安事實上是對台灣來講甚至對世界各國上個禮拜到美國參加55個國家消防首長的會議各國也同樣針對消防人員的職業安全這個部分來做一個強化所以我們這個一方面繼續國內食安的經驗一方面也參考國外的做法來強化真的落實到我們消防人員的一個職業安全的措施"},{"start":2680.075,"end":2683.356,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案》案。厲 委員"},{"start":2697.022,"end":2727.022,"text":"), ️"},{"start":2727.242,"end":2728.585,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":2742.867,"end":2759.908,"text":"此行事實上就在批的階段從相對的法規的目前治安專章的條文裡面相對的條文我們都列在上面所以這個條文內容到時候報告到大會再請大會來跟我們知道看怎麼樣來建構整體的一個職業安全"},{"start":2760.549,"end":2781.929,"text":"除此之外,在長期的職業安全、安全文化型數裡面,這是在職業安全裡面很重要的一個區塊,也是最難的區塊。怎麼由下而上建構起共同的安全文化,這是我們要努力的一個地方。所以在前述的中等計畫就是以五年的概念,從裝備器材、組織文化、"},{"start":2782.509,"end":2786.176,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2793.49,"end":2817.244,"text":"), ️ ️"},{"start":2818.414,"end":2820.716,"text":"公務人員協會改善團結權及協商權給予消防人員未來有這樣的空間,跟大家作報告。"},{"start":2841.148,"end":2856.745,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位律師、各位先生。我想情緒部在今天的報告特別重申一下為什麼那個校園委員不適合組工會。主要校園委員的人事法制,他的任免簽調、考積、獎懲、退休、撫恤"},{"start":2859.428,"end":2864.214,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。cellence"},{"start":2878.631,"end":2890.687,"text":"除了那禮拜一有人提過,他的身份屬性不太一樣。他是公法上的職務關係,而不是司法上的勞子關係。這個是很清楚的。那我們這個"},{"start":2894.921,"end":2918.56,"text":"昨天那天有報告就是很多委員也有講說這個國外都有組工會等等為什麼我們不能組工會那這邊要特別報告我們那張表也有說明國外的工會公司部門適用同一部工會的全世界只有英國其他國家他是專屬的適用公務員的工會"},{"start":2919.841,"end":2921.863,"text":"其他國家是自己做工人員的工會法。"},{"start":2937.739,"end":2948.768,"text":"除此之外：立法院第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆全體委員會議第16屆"},{"start":2965.801,"end":2986.32,"text":"醫護人員他們是特種法規適用的他可以來組特種協會這種協會的話就會團結群方面就會變得大多了那當然就是你要團結群你門檻要降低目前是800人才能組工會我們現在降回400"},{"start":2987.577,"end":3006.645,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案"},{"start":3007.825,"end":3007.845,"text":"議員陳菁"},{"start":3024.548,"end":3028.211,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3044.723,"end":3068.137,"text":"除非屬全國一致性的福利措施,都可以列為協商。這個部分都已經讓以前的條件放寬很多。而協商不成的話,我們還有調解機制。調解不成的話,還有爭議處理機制,三階段來做。這個部分就是仿照工會的模式去處理的。"},{"start":3070.589,"end":3084.118,"text":"此決議的爭議處理之後的結果如果說機關所長或是民警所長不遵守的話可以究責或是罰款另外就是說我們調查的結果15個縣市對這個部分比較保留"},{"start":3094.172,"end":3114.735,"text":"獎項獎項獎項"},{"start":3115.39,"end":3133.758,"text":"就是希望不要脫離公民法制去組工會。這是我們特別要提出來做報告的。謝謝。好,謝謝我們全學部主事長的一個報告跟說明。"},{"start":3134.722,"end":3136.545,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3156.411,"end":3166.502,"text":"主席大家好我的看法是這樣子因為剛剛前序部的說明呢就說明了在公務人員"},{"start":3169.382,"end":3188.338,"text":"協會法裏面有很多對於基層的警消人員在工作待遇上工作份量上讓他們覺得吃不消所以才會有今天這麼多委員跟黨團的提案版本"},{"start":3189.999,"end":3216.952,"text":"我不知道為什麼公務人員協會法的修法速度會那麼慢其實在教師納入公會法的時候就已經把整個立法的體制破壞掉了公會法第一條開宗明義就講了公會法其實是為了要團結勞工改善勞工條件也就是說它是鎖定在勞工"},{"start":3217.892,"end":3220.793,"text":"公務人員協會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。所以我覺得當初教師納入工會法"},{"start":3247.014,"end":3273.939,"text":"就已經是一項錯誤而且破壞原有體系的東西那假如說現在再把警消我確實很認同委員跟其他黨團提案的版本為什麼呢因為他們用這樣子的方式來表達基層的聲音"},{"start":3275.9,"end":3296.245,"text":"因為錦霄可能大概都覺得自己的工作權益並沒有得到很妥善的照顧跟落實所以才會有這樣子的提案版本 這個第一第二就是教師納入工會法以後我們當初是同時修正勞資爭議處理法的"},{"start":3299.614,"end":3322.874,"text":"現縮了教師的罷工權那假如說我們現在單純今天只就工會法第四條跟第六條讓警消成立工會可是勞資爭議處理法沒有同時做處理那很可能就會造成警消可以行使罷工權"},{"start":3324.321,"end":3349.206,"text":"所以我的建議是這個案是很值得討論可是是不是可以等到相關的法律一起提出的時候我們再做討論比如說前序部前序部剛剛做了那麼多說明你們什麼時候可以提出相關的修法版本在徵詢意見"},{"start":3358.602,"end":3369.467,"text":"到底他們還有什麼樣的地方像楊委員講的哪裡有不滿哪裡需要改我們再徵詢一下意見然後讓這個520的新政府可以了解實際的狀況再送上來"},{"start":3372.329,"end":3402.329,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":3403.21,"end":3425.444,"text":"​​公務體系跟一般勞工的界限縱使要在像教師一樣破壞這樣子的不相同的立法體力那我覺得也必須要等勞資爭議處理法一起提案的時候我們再來做詳細的討論這個是我的建議 謝謝"},{"start":3432.379,"end":3455.675,"text":"蘇清泉委員陳昭志委員我要請問我們全系部的次長你剛剛講的公務人員的權益條例還是一個公務人員學會法你是要用另外一個公會法還是另外另一個法"},{"start":3457.214,"end":3485.271,"text":"跟勞基法無關因為剛剛楊耀偉人講的把教師納入這個工會法本身就是一個錯誤嘛那你們是不是有想要把公務人員所有的權益都另外搞一個法來cover他們所有的權益你這樣子講的話我還聽得下去喔那如果就硬這樣耍賴說不要不要不要就不要"},{"start":3487.069,"end":3496.257,"text":"二、三、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、"},{"start":3514.231,"end":3514.431,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":3536.839,"end":3562.586,"text":"所以當初是沒有就是教師納入工會法的時候並沒有把他標明施立學校的教師這個是這樣子你剛剛回答蘇星球委員的問題我覺得是這樣子就是公務人員協會法現在不只是在立法上有限縮到公務人員權益的保障"},{"start":3564.915,"end":3567.377,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":3581.125,"end":3607.306,"text":"現在有協會法可是因為有上對下的一些關係所以組成也很困難這個是全就是從立法面到執行面都全部出了問題才會有這麼多基層警消向立法委員跟各黨團提出陳情才會有今天這個修法"},{"start":3611.55,"end":3616.771,"text":"陳昭智委員、林淑芬、林月琴、陳金輝委員陳昭智委員、林淑芬、林月琴、陳金輝委員陳昭智委員、林淑芬、林月琴、陳金輝委員陳昭智委員、林淑芬、林月琴、陳金輝委員陳昭智委員、林淑芬、林月琴、陳金輝委員"},{"start":3637.715,"end":3657.352,"text":"愿会没有意义的意思表示连执政党都不买单请大家记得退回程序委员会大家都没有意义这是第一个当时的情况是这样第二个我要举出第8届第5期第17次的内政部的这个内政组的这个会议当时主席是陈其迈市长"},{"start":3658.012,"end":3679.005,"text":"里面他的發言陳主席說高雄的公務員就有組工會署長你要不要去高雄市政府取經去問問看他說組工會是合理的因為有超時加班陳其邁主席也說請你們考慮清楚針對警察組工會居然是政府在反對警政署在反對當時的國民黨也在反對"},{"start":3684.088,"end":3706.773,"text":"那我想在就剛剛的一開始消防署的報告他只提到哪些國家不允許那重點是目前各國消防人員有工會組織的包括剛剛有提到英國有韓國英國美國加拿大法國澳洲紐西蘭德國等14個歐洲國家工會聯合會香港本身也有消防處的職工總會以及教護員的工會"},{"start":3710.214,"end":3732.501,"text":"除此之外在禮拜一的時候許部長您有提到說日本不允許但是日本的消防委員的協會具有協商權協商權不是協商有協商的權利這是工會組織的非常重要的一個功能日本消防員雖然沒有辦法組織工會但是他具有協商權的這個消防員協會來保障消防院的這個消防員的這個勞動條件另外第三點就是說這個在"},{"start":3740.103,"end":3742.325,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3758.495,"end":3785.228,"text":"這個協會法從這個招募達800人或機關員額五分之一降為400人還是超過機關這個預算員額五分之一還是非常的離譜這個門檻非常的高第二個仍然沒有協商權雖然它項目有增加有所謂的這個運政移民來警校等等相關但是最重要的財事權還是在主管機關所以它的協商權是被弱化的第三個它無法透過"},{"start":3786.288,"end":3786.769,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":3802.602,"end":3816.4,"text":"除此之外,其中一項項目是關於社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16"},{"start":3817.762,"end":3818.823,"text":"公會的時候我們限制的勞資爭議處理法的配套應該要同時拿出來"},{"start":3834.289,"end":3836.872,"text":"但是我今天在這裡我還是要對這個權序部表達我們的不滿因為這個始作俑者你在這裡一直講說這個公務人員的協會法公務人員協會法公務人員的協會法曾魯主席講的拿出來以後大家都不能接受"},{"start":3853.348,"end":3854.869,"text":"兩公約裏面其實都已經放進來的內國法化了所以團結權這個東西是變成一個我們的基本上大家社會上也認為應該要給的"},{"start":3871.061,"end":3873.462,"text":"團結權是勞動三權之首,參照ILO第87號公約的精神也明定了教師主公會。所以2009年教師主公會的確是在這樣的環境和背景裡面被放進來的主公會的破口。"},{"start":3890.831,"end":3892.333,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3908.191,"end":3937.343,"text":"可是我要為什麼要討論這個全序部的這個公務人員協會法呢因為公務人員的協會法第一個大家爭執的就是說團結權的門檻過高那第二個呢他雖然可以提出協商可是提出協商的項目啊其實什麼協商什麼工作簡化績效平和訓練進修等等可是協商不成就要進入這個調解的程序但是呢"},{"start":3938.863,"end":3955.094,"text":"據我們所知這些消防人員要講的不是只有爭取勤修工作簡化業績績效這樣的東西他們要爭取的是人力的配置裝備的安全還有檢討救災現場相關的核心的因素"},{"start":3956.415,"end":3962.919,"text":"所以為什麼拿出來大家不能接受是因為你給我們的協商的內容跟他們主張要的內容落差太大了除了門檻太高以外團結權第一這叫協商權協商的門檻已經很高了協商的內容還是這樣的受限然後呢在協商的過程裡面如果不是在組工會這個概念裡面"},{"start":3985.131,"end":3989.234,"text":"我們主公會是團體協約法發動權不是只有行政機關可以發動團體協約是兩兆雙方都可以發動結果我們的這個公務人員協會法裡面是主動權是在行政部門手上然後也主管機關還是握有最終的才事權所以這種狀況裡面他們當然是不能接受的"},{"start":4010.248,"end":4017.118,"text":"μη要拿一個大家稍微可以趨近於但是你可以退一步他也退一步的話這樣的公務人員協協會法你應該拿一個你不能夠堅持說我只能這樣子我只能這樣子我就只給這樣子"},{"start":4025.129,"end":4026.25,"text":"​​公務人員協會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4046.556,"end":4051.139,"text":"兼具部則無旁貸,可是已經講了很多年了,因為真的講了很多年了,他們的協商權你給的都像是建議權,建議權而已,那當然大家是不能接受的,所以今天我們是希望說要再討論應該也是可以的主席,但是這個討論我們是不是要有一個就是說你要在工會法裡面的話,那你的這個爭議"},{"start":4073.052,"end":4073.913,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4093.587,"end":4098.749,"text":"第二個如果不走這條路徑的話我們的公務人員協會法也要拿出來啊人家的團結權的門檻你到底怎麼樣還要維持這麼高嗎你的協商權還是把它架空成只像是建議權嗎而且建議權建議到最後還是由主管機關來裁示那還叫協商權嗎所以這個東西我覺得是知識體大啦應該大家要多一點討論"},{"start":4123.099,"end":4124.406,"text":"接下來請林岳晴委員"},{"start":4127.027,"end":4154.706,"text":"允許我們的淑芬委員提到所以如果是要走協會法的話那是不是應該也要講清楚說明白如果要走工會法一樣的配套要拿出來所以我針對於剛才我們的詮釋部在講的所以想問一下剛剛講說把工會法的所有很多東西都已經有放進來考慮在協會法裡面所以第一個就是對於協商不成的處理方法剛剛的確有回應可是從協商到調解到爭議處理想問是"},{"start":4157.327,"end":4178.842,"text":"二、三、四百人才能成立特種協會太高,那下降到兩百人可以嗎?否則就陳如剛剛前面委員講的已經這麼多年了,你如果沒有拿出一個來解決我們的警校人員的疑慮的話,一直說要協會法的話,事實上一定會有一些阻礙。"},{"start":4180.26,"end":4205.447,"text":"第三個是協會可否制定組織章程可否拒絕主管參加因為前天大家就已經有提過如果是工會法的話我們大家都是平等地位那我再去跟資方去協調可是如果是協會法的話在裡邊可能用我的主管那怎麼去做一個我要爭取我的權益大家就有點困難以上這三個請我們的全區補各位回答好再請陳菁輝委員"},{"start":4209.312,"end":4209.873,"text":"〔法定人數不足〕"},{"start":4231.247,"end":4234.071,"text":"公會的權利另外想強調說大法官釋字第373號理由書寫得非常的清楚"},{"start":4248.147,"end":4274.137,"text":"為了改善勞動條件增進社會及經濟地位得組織工會雖然呢大法官當初並沒有明確的針對消防人做解釋可是很明顯他們就是從事各種職業的勞動者因此現在這些消防團體也已經準備要打到憲法法庭所以如果大家繼續這樣子禁止很有可能也會被宣告是違憲那當然前幾天質詢就已經有講到了2017年我們就開始"},{"start":4277.298,"end":4284.083,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":4307.478,"end":4321.924,"text":"除2017年勞怒部部長提出來的四個方案看起來是修工會法是最有效率最能幫助到基層這些警消的方式謝謝好謝謝接下來黃秀芳委員陳昭智委員"},{"start":4322.841,"end":4325.503,"text":"公會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4349.139,"end":4352.824,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。netesa"},{"start":4366.601,"end":4370.104,"text":"公務人員協會法部分條文修正草案將來會送到立法院公務人員協會法可以涵蓋到我們現在希望警消可以有結社權、協商權"},{"start":4387.478,"end":4388.459,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4402.844,"end":4403.064,"text":"委員陳昭智委員"},{"start":4430.728,"end":4458.445,"text":"我想要回應一下因為剛剛林淑芬委員她在擔心說社會對於這個警消的罷工有疑慮但我想事實上大家會同意說擔任警消這個基層兄弟基本上他們大概就是會有一些使命感因為這個是勇敢犯難的一個工作但是如果委員會擔心應該認為要有罷工權的配套措施我們建議可以提出附帶決議就是要求行政機關提出合理的一個配套規範草案到立法院來做這個審議"},{"start":4460.246,"end":4486.318,"text":"另外一方面我也要再提到警消人員因為本黨是要求警跟消是一起納入其實他們主要的問題就是除了人力嚴重的不足大家都知道超時加班過了業務包山包海裝備不足等等而且警察的工作風險也不會比消防員還少我今天手邊的資料就是根據內政部自己統計近10年消防員因公殉職和因公死亡的人數是44位"},{"start":4488.059,"end":4512.609,"text":"﹑警察多達84位。在自殺人數的部分,輕生的部分,消防員進行有11位。那麼警察是58位。所以這些統計數字可以告訴警消真的是高風險的工作。他們在生理上跟精神上都面臨重大的壓力。加上我們大概也都理解基層警員對於這個不合理的績效考評,工作調度等等。"},{"start":4513.749,"end":4523.992,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會議．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會議．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會議．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會議．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會議．事由．立法院第16次全體委員會議．"},{"start":4543.357,"end":4545.598,"text":"王正旭委員請消防署及全序部回答"},{"start":4550.356,"end":4575.061,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位委員我想對於警消同仁的付出大家都非常肯定而且也認同大家必須要用盡全力來保障他們的各方面的安全不管是從設備從人力等等那剛剛我們也聽到主管機關這邊也提出了各種保障的方案或者是如何能夠讓他們更"},{"start":4576.501,"end":4605.222,"text":"具有在付出的同時也可以得到適當的保障我還是覺得有一些比較細節的部分我會表達我的擔心說如果我們納入工會變成他具有除了團結權協商權以外萬一又有罷工權的情形之下會造成什麼樣的影響這個我想大家都會很擔心非常非常的擔心因為這個牽扯到的是社會安全還有我們人民人身財產的安全"},{"start":4606.022,"end":4628.495,"text":"社想如果我住在一棟大樓裡面出現了火警或出現了一些治安的問題剛好我們這些警消人員他利用他的罷工權也好或者是他利用他的集體請假權也好造成社會或者是人民在這方面的擔心、恐懼"},{"start":4629.716,"end":4652.368,"text":"由其這是一種心理壓力當人民覺得他的生命安全、人身安全、財產安全無法得到透過警消同仁的付出得到適當的保障的時候那這種社會不安定的心理會不會越來越明顯造成的影響會不會越來越擔心這是一個很不好的二項循環所以我會認同"},{"start":4653.248,"end":4678.606,"text":"大家應該努力的來透過不管是公衛人員協會法等等的方式來加強來努力的保障我們這些警消人員的所有該有的得到了社會的認同跟應該得到的回饋可是如果我們這樣子沒有好的配套措施讓這樣的這個法案通過的話萬一出現我剛剛所提"},{"start":4679.306,"end":4691.169,"text":"), 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次"},{"start":4699.599,"end":4717.773,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4718.373,"end":4737.823,"text":"對消防局的部分是有19個機關不同意入工會法來組工會這是目前調查的狀況沒有回應跟保留態度是有一個機關有同意入工會法但是要限制罷工權有兩個機關這是我們"},{"start":4740.925,"end":4755.12,"text":"禮拜一委員會完了以後我們再跟縣市做一個洽詢的一個狀況那對縣市政府的部分是有16個地方政府不同意組工會那組工會但是要限制罷工權有兩個地方政府"},{"start":4755.88,"end":4772.615,"text":"自治組工會有三個地方政府沒有意見的是一個地方政府這是針對於剛剛委員垂詢對於組工會地方政府我們針對於消防局跟縣市政府這邊昨天在緊急在請教的部分做一個回報"},{"start":4773.616,"end":4789.901,"text":"第二部分就是針對消防法的修正那事實上我們消防法修正也針對於去年明天大火以後對於危險物品場所的安全條文已經有做修正那去年提報到院會來那因為屆期不續審所以退回"},{"start":4790.921,"end":4817.403,"text":"以後我們也把消防人員職業安全專章也列入這一次的修正那我們在4月30號也報到行政院我想這個部分在委員關心的這個情形之下我們會加速趕快把消防法修正尤其包括消防人員的職業安全特別這個職業安全又有別於一般的勞工的安全跟一般公務人的安全所以特別提列住我們消防法的一個修正的職業專章的內容"},{"start":4818.804,"end":4832.99,"text":"當然對於消防人員的法制化的作為同時剛才也報告過就是我們消防人員工作安全衛生中層計畫也是五年的計畫這個區塊而這個才是真的我們落實我們資源安全的推動那有專業團隊針對我們所發現的問題找出問題定出一些規範"},{"start":4837.652,"end":4863.285,"text":"這是我們要去努力的地方。那這個案子我們也在5月10號報到行政院裡面來。那我們在跟行政院報告以後就後續今年出的針對原來10個機關加16個機關的輔導以外。那這種計畫期待在明年開始全面性的推動。來針對就是同人的一個安全的意識然後同人的安全文化希望能夠建置。感謝委員的支持。謝謝。"},{"start":4866.111,"end":4892.331,"text":"全學部主持人林委員提到了協商的機制基本上是先協商協商不成的話就進入調解調解的話就比如說新北市的消防局他不會跟消防局局長去調解他是直接找新北市政府就跳過他了所以他不是說找局長協商是找上級機關協商"},{"start":4894.652,"end":4911.677,"text":"條解再做不成的話就到主管機關這邊做正義的裁決正義裁決總共有9個人社會選達還有兩方各推薦的人這樣去做裁決也不是主管機關一手遮天的"},{"start":4912.177,"end":4921.083,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":4934.873,"end":4961.174,"text":"如說這個像比如說我們消防署的那個消防人員是16300人你說30個人就可以來組成了這好像又代表性又不夠再來就是說主管能不能不參加這個工會目前的協法已經規範了第二條就是政務人員跟機關使用副所長不能參加已經規範那至於主管部分他們理事長什麼是透過選舉的"},{"start":4962.295,"end":4979.019,"text":""},{"start":4982.744,"end":5008.774,"text":"部長我其實不太想說但是我還是要再講一下因為大家協商協商的事項就已經有爭議了到最後如果協商的內容不成的話其實是要調解調解上面是爭議裁處爭議裁處的委員你所有社會選擇等等都還是行政機關這個聘的啦所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":5010.655,"end":5017.938,"text":"大家當然都會覺得說你行政部門去找跟你站在一起的學者專家社會選達然後再來來調處我們兩兆雙方的協商不成的事項所以他們當然也會有爭議啦"},{"start":5026.602,"end":5041.036,"text":"除此之外,我們必須提出一個大家稍微看得下去的制度面要大家稍微看得下去的但是主席在講也是一樣再來就是說"},{"start":5043.898,"end":5067.984,"text":"我個人認為工會法這樣的破口但是至少教師組工會2009年的時候真的有處理勞資爭議處理法這樣的一個配套啦所以是不是這樣的配套如果沒有進來其實就整個口就全開了就有罷工權了而這樣的一個罷工權的話事實上對社會真的是忽然之間衝擊會很大"},{"start":5070.265,"end":5076.882,"text":"那我們是不是其實應該是要討論一下是不是也是應該要先擱置要有配套進來再討論"},{"start":5080.455,"end":5100.829,"text":"陳昭智委員謝謝主席剛剛消防署有提到說某些縣市是多數縣市反對的第一個因為我們都知道消防署消防局是一條邊的所以第一個我想要知道說哪些縣市支持哪些縣市反對我們有權利知道第二個你調查是只有長官嗎你有問基層員警嗎基層員工嗎你有做普查或了解他們的問題所在嗎"},{"start":5107.774,"end":5114.359,"text":"你這個調查公平嗎?我們要求知道內容。哪些縣市是支持跟反對的?謝謝。好,來楊耀文委員。對,我也覺得消防署提出的這種調查可能就是比較類似,我們假如說比較老資,就是比較類似資方的立場。"},{"start":5133.422,"end":5153.881,"text":"我還是要強調就是委員會提出這樣子的版本黨團會提出這樣子的版本表示民意的需求在所以我不覺得這種調查跟真實的需求是有必然的關聯第二點就是我還是要再強調一次就是"},{"start":5158.488,"end":5175.226,"text":"把教師跟警校納入工會本來就已經破壞體制假如說萬一我們今天把這個修正的草案送出委員會沒有同時處理勞資爭議處理法裡面的罷工權的部分"},{"start":5179.997,"end":5207.047,"text":"大家要知道錦霄負責的是全國的治安跟很多緊急事務的處理緊急救護萬一我們讓他可以組工會可是沒有限制罷工那對於台灣社會是一種很潛在的威脅我並不覺得我們可以設立制度"},{"start":5207.91,"end":5213.014,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5228.067,"end":5256.574,"text":"所以我還是希望我們是不是緩一緩把這個條文先留在委員會等到不管是要全修公務人員協會法讓特別法律關係的人有另外一條線或者是要真的無限度的把公務體系的人納入公會法"},{"start":5258.251,"end":5285.401,"text":"), ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":5289.339,"end":5294.144,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案 》案。"},{"start":5320.854,"end":5346.063,"text":"所以調查對象是消防局局長是不是?我們是以消防局來請教那就是長官啊一條邊啊就是有調查跟沒調查一樣啊我們消防局不是一條邊啊消防署不是一條邊我們是分別但是你調查長官嘛我們是為消防局跟縣市政府的意見是消防局跟縣市政府的意見是"},{"start":5346.983,"end":5348.484,"text":"公會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":5368.608,"end":5377.954,"text":"醫師不見了還得了,對不對?罷工還得了,但醫師早就組工會了。所以這個是事實上是可以做配套措施來管理的,可以來規範的。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。那我想剛剛委員跟事務委員要補充說明,來請。"},{"start":5393.055,"end":5421.192,"text":"我想剛剛很多委員都提了啦齁勞資爭議處理啦工會法今天我們要談的啦公務委員協會法這樣在這邊再討論一直討論一直討論也不好啦所以呢趕快出委員會然後呢我們有一個讓他有時間壓力然後我們在草野學校草野學校也不一定不一定到大院會就一定會怎麼樣我們在那邊好好"},{"start":5422.21,"end":5441.695,"text":"次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第16次委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":5451.252,"end":5477.287,"text":"所以不要用這種大帽子在扣所以我還是覺得就出委員會配套永遠講不完在這邊再講三個月半年還是在這邊討論沒有沒有沒有不是啦你沒有一個這個限制的話沒有那個同時修法教室我們現在先休息十分鐘"},{"start":5489.936,"end":5491.74,"text":"》委員王育敏等21人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5495.958,"end":5500.299,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5524.526,"end":5529.273,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":6641.066,"end":6642.027,"text":"我們繼續開會那跟委員會報告剛剛休息時間其實大家有協商關於這一次本席會排這個工會法的審議我想第一個真的是基層的消防弟兄"},{"start":6665.527,"end":6673.736,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹖一、審判委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹖一、審判委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹖一、審判委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹖一、審判委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹖一、審判委員王育�"},{"start":6687.049,"end":6689.752,"text":"除此之外：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":6708.849,"end":6718.672,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正�"},{"start":6737.938,"end":6741.581,"text":"公務人員協會法原本是希望一個月就應該要送進來但是涉及到考試院跟行政院兩院之間的協商所以考試院爭取希望可以多給兩個月的時間"},{"start":6762.777,"end":6769.379,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":6787.483,"end":6800.867,"text":"可以啟動再修法所以這個是要告訴行政部門不要敷衍衛環委員會也不要敷衍基層的消防弟兄你們下一個送件的版本多給時間特別是考試院多給時間兩個月"},{"start":6802.788,"end":6804.05,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件 條件 條件 條件 條件 條件"},{"start":6820.269,"end":6845.789,"text":"公會法就可以送出委員會繼續往前走我想這個是我們的條件好不好這個大家就說清楚了所以今天大家其實都這個共同的目的就是在委員會討論我們就希望為將來的消防弟兄有進一步的更多的權益保障那我們這個剛剛有協商的結論但是這個民眾黨還有保留意見來我們請陳昭志委員"},{"start":6848.412,"end":6868.591,"text":"民眾黨還是要再代表自己堅持的想法我們還是希望能夠保留送協商當然最後會尊重主席的才是因為我們覺得冷凍期一個月剛好是讓行政機構能夠加速再加速趕快去處理你們要處理的部分那有關罷工全部我還是要再說明一下"},{"start":6869.758,"end":6883.428,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第"},{"start":6900.148,"end":6904.392,"text":"考量勞資正義處理法禁止與限制罷工對象未有消防員與警察一旦將消防員警察人員納入工會法適用對象"},{"start":6922.668,"end":6941.649,"text":"消防員工會警察工會與各縣市政府發生勞資爭議得依法提出罷工施設整體社會需付出代價民眾認同度故本案應先凝聚社會共識並規劃配套機制並請內政部消防署於一個月內將消防法修正案含"},{"start":6942.99,"end":6968.15,"text":"值安慰專章考試願於二個月內將《公務人員協會法》送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查保障消防員、警察人員行使其團結權、團體協商權爭取其合理權益與待遇。提案人委員蘇清泉、王育敏、黃秀芳、林月琴、楊耀、盧憲一、王振旭、劉建國、陳盈、邱振鈞、陳金輝宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6970.452,"end":6998.577,"text":"好請問委員通過這項提案有沒有意義好沒有意義我們就通過好那現在有關於第一案我們做以下的這個決議有關於工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案計四案審查完畢另則其好我重新宣告一次"},{"start":6999.417,"end":7008.821,"text":"公會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案計四案令則其繼續審查。好來接下來進行第二案。"},{"start":7028.339,"end":7043.135,"text":"第二案是勞動基準法條文修正草案好那有關於第一案審查的那個出席的官員就是第一案會責起審查那第一案出席的官員可以先行離席謝謝"},{"start":7061.324,"end":7079.532,"text":" »:好。接下來我們進行勞動基準法條文修正草案。第54條跟第86條條文修正草案。那有沒有委員要針對這兩案表示意見?好。"},{"start":7081.038,"end":7084,"text":"第五十四條委員有提兩個提案然後修正動議有三個"},{"start":7107.057,"end":7128.219,"text":"總共有五個案子那勞動部這邊說明一下現行勞基法第54條就是規定說勞工非滿年滿65歲的時候雇主不得任意的強制勞工退休如果勞工年滿65歲然後雙方有意願其實雇主還可以繼續雇用勞工從事工作這是勞基法54條的立法意旨"},{"start":7129.08,"end":7148.676,"text":"此外,我們考量到說現行勞基法不管是勞工的年齡是多少都可以依照現行勞基法的規定去協商延後退休的年齡權益並沒有不同所以建議說不用再去限縮年滿64歲啦或者是新聘者才能夠讓這雙方去協商這是第一點的說明"},{"start":7149.477,"end":7174.494,"text":"第二點的說明另外有提到說身心障礙不堪升任工作的部分在現行勞基法的規定不論是勞工的年齡不管他年齡是多少如果有身心障礙不堪升任工作的情勢的時候本來就可以依照勞基法第一我們勞基法54條第一項第二款的規定來行使強制退休所以不需要再去增訂"},{"start":7176.116,"end":7188.91,"text":"為了鼓勵這雙方能夠合一去讓有意願勞工能夠持續在職場工作我們是建議採納王振旭委員的一個臨時修正動議的一個版本以上說明請問他的修正動議版本跟本席提出來有什麼不一樣"},{"start":7196.209,"end":7216.015,"text":"我剛說明一下那個王振旭委員的修正動議他是在54條看條文對照表54條第二項有提到因為他講前項第一款所定的年齡第一款就是強制退休的那年滿65歲這個年齡可以由勞僱雙方去協商延後之就是延後"},{"start":7216.835,"end":7239.974,"text":"那王委員您提的版本就是也是一項五十四條第二項就前項第一款所定的年齡經勞資協議延任延任這個法律用語其實我們是要延後不是延任然後或新聘者得延後之這個部分我剛剛有報告其實不管勞工的年齡依照現行的規定"},{"start":7241.435,"end":7258.706,"text":"獻行勞基法是規定勞動條件的最低的一個標準所以勞資雙方本來就可以去協商你的退休的年齡是這樣子所以不限於新聘者大家都可以適用所以不需要在法條上明定以上說明"},{"start":7264.659,"end":7280.009,"text":"所以你是說不需要特別去明定延後或新聘現任的所有的勞工都有那個權利也沒有年齡的限制也沒有什麼64歲之後都可以去商議就對了但是你是用得得就是看勞工要不要提出來但是一個現實的情況會不會其實他提出來其實是沒有用的因為"},{"start":7294.272,"end":7302.045,"text":"μη前面其實已經先說了沒有我們在講是第一項所定的退休年齡看王振旭委員所提的這個部分"},{"start":7302.748,"end":7324.526,"text":"就是説他的第一款有提到年滿65歲嘛那當然這一項這個年齡是指這個年齡得由勞僱雙方協商嘛本來就是要勞僱勞工有意願僱主也要有意願啊勞僱雙方要去協商而且同意嘛才能夠去延後這個部分現行就是這樣的處理"},{"start":7325.305,"end":7343.635,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條條文修正草案。案。議員王育敏等19人擬"},{"start":7350.405,"end":7379.331,"text":"之所以沒有辦法我們說在法律一條文說可以經由一方提出就同意這個是不行的好來王衛廉針對這部分其實當初的考量就是因為現在65歲是法定年齡要退休嘛事實上如果要針對我們的勞工階層有更大的保障的話現在超過65歲在就業的人真的是"},{"start":7380.071,"end":7383.572,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7411.084,"end":7418.51,"text":"公平均於命其實提高整個年齡往後的問題對不對其實這樣的寫法還是沒有達到這樣的要件"},{"start":7419.616,"end":7443.695,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":7444.218,"end":7448.501,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7460.069,"end":7486.141,"text":"現在目前就可以協商了。這樣寫會更清楚啦。我想委員的提案也是希望讓一般人看到這個條文就說原來我是可以跟老闆或者老闆可以跟員工再來協商。不會說有些人可能光看原來條文以為誤解說我65歲就非退休不可我就不能延後退休年齡。所以我覺得把它定義清楚是好的。"},{"start":7486.901,"end":7489.365,"text":"除此之外：立法院第16次全體委員會議及第16條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7503.506,"end":7504.666,"text":"允悅請問委員允悅請問委員允悅請問委員"},{"start":7532.454,"end":7553.127,"text":"),委員短期內有效,可是18個月後不見得有效。原因在於僱主先讓員工退休再重新聘僱。一方面可以切斷他在公司任職的年資,同時也可以停止他負擔他的勞保費用,並且重新議定價低的薪資。"},{"start":7554.615,"end":7572.809,"text":" 因此現行再僱用的比例有提升可是繼續僱用的效果不好所以我們也可以這麼講目前的制度是對僱主有利的問題是這樣的制度特別對於職癌當中有一段時間離開職場一直到中高齡才出來工作不利不利的理由在於"},{"start":7573.322,"end":7573.482,"text":" lapt�����"},{"start":7593.989,"end":7594.009,"text":"),委員"},{"start":7620.921,"end":7629.49,"text":"謝謝委員有這樣的考量我們都希望這個勞工能夠留在職場上當然有委員這樣寫的話變成是年滿65歲未滿經勞資協商要重新約定聘僱條件延緩退休年齡"},{"start":7638.038,"end":7649.787,"text":"除此之外,委員王育敏等19人擬具及第六條條文修正草案案案件事宜及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜及第七條條文修正草案案件事宜及第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及第八條條條文修正草案案件事宜及第八條條條文修正草案案件事宜及第八條條條文修正草案案件事宜及第八條條條文修正草案案件"},{"start":7663.777,"end":7680.368,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第17期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18期社會福利"},{"start":7689.514,"end":7713.145,"text":"其實我們是才會希望說採用王振旭委員的修正動議就是雙方去協商延後退休的年齡你的勞動條件是不要改變的這樣對勞工才是比較有保障的這是我們希望這個鼓勵也鼓勵雇主持續再雇用員工以上說明好來吳春城委員"},{"start":7720.621,"end":7746.888,"text":"主席 勞動部現在的精神非常鼓勵壯士代重返職場不過我們的做法當中還是有美意沒辦法達到的地方就是還是對65歲以上帶有歧視 充滿歧視其實就就業來講 或者是各種規定"},{"start":7748.8,"end":7751.123,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":7768.723,"end":7772.105,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7784.452,"end":7802.655,"text":"一致的但是呢我對我的版本當中我要特別提出來一個文字當中有所不同的就是主動性就是勞工因為其他人沒有提到這一點是勞工有繼續工作意願者"},{"start":7803.456,"end":7814.862,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":7833.473,"end":7851.279,"text":"公會跟公司的關係叫勞資協議但是這個是個人跟公司的關係所以這裡應該有所分別就是希望這個修正的文字精神一致不過文字可能更細緻的一點僅僱主及勞工雙方協議的延長之以上請大家參考好謝謝吳委員勞動部有沒有意見"},{"start":7862.813,"end":7884.698,"text":"我這邊再說明一下我想我們是講牢固雙方協商不是工會喔不是限於工會是牢固雙方協商也是考量到整個牢記法的一個法制的體力在牢記法裡面都有牢固雙方協商這樣的字字眼文字是這樣子"},{"start":7884.838,"end":7899.467,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委"},{"start":7914.578,"end":7925.406,"text":"這部分我想先保留好了就是因為有不同委員都提這個修正動力版本好像還沒有到完全的共識那我們就先保留來第54條保留那連同那個86條也保留好啦我們先進行第三案待會再回來處理待會再回來處理我們先先"},{"start":7940.984,"end":7945.107,"text":"第四條及第六條條文修正草案案的第七條主管經理有沒有意見?"},{"start":7971.164,"end":7999.821,"text":"第一點就是針對第七條大概我們目前的這個中高齡就業法因為依照第七條規定我們已經訂定了中高齡者及高齡的就業促進計劃那現行條文是每三年至少每三年要訂定那其實這個每三年其實有考量到在目前各部位的中程時間一般都是四年但是也是因為我們覺得在中高齡這個整個就業促進上可能必須要把這個時程再把它拉近所以已經把這樣的一個年限做一個適度的一個調降"},{"start":8001.162,"end":8016.663,"text":"第二就是這個三年內主要就是我們在計劃訂定前就必須要衡酌當前的勞動就業市場情勢那最主要還是要參考把相關的利害關係人包含這個中高齡受僱團體以及僱主醫學教育學生跟部會"},{"start":8017.825,"end":8037.686,"text":"候選人的意見我們把它整體納入之後來檢討來去訂定那訂定之後整個執行一定要一段時間後那我們會去評估它的整個成效那作為後續我們在每三年訂定的一個參考所以基本上我們在目前的這個執行的情況跟做法其實也經過我們勞動部我們有一個中高齡跟高齡的就業推動小組"},{"start":8038.466,"end":8055.116,"text":"除了討論通過,也認為這是一個失竊的方式。所以第一點就是建議,因為委員有提案是不是修正的每兩年來訂定計劃。那我們是認為目前以每三年,而且我們是每年去滾動式的修正跟監督。我們是比較建議能夠維持現行條文,這是第一點。"},{"start":8056.196,"end":8073.614,"text":"第二點是針對馬文均委員跟邱若驊委員有提案修正以及王正俊委員有修正動議,要增列第二項。那增列第二項主要就是針對我們目前所訂的就業計畫,希望能夠包含就業促進以及職業安全的這個項目。"},{"start":8074.815,"end":8077.936,"text":"網站區委員的修正報應版本其實也參考我們現行的專法的施行細則的第三條我們第三條其實針對我們就業計畫裡面應包含的事項其實已經把它民事化包含職業安全、職業訓練、職場友善、植物在熱氣跟推動在就業等等"},{"start":8094.04,"end":8108.313,"text":"除此之外,所有的這些面向都是目前我們的中高齡的就業計劃裡面非常核心的重要,那我們也認為應該有名列的一個必要。所以我們是建議如果要增列第二項的話,是不是能夠建議來參照我們王振旭委員的這個修正動議的版本,把它明確化之後,我們勞動部會去以來執行。"},{"start":8116.499,"end":8134.987,"text":"第三點補充就是針對林月琴委員在甄列第二項這個部分有針對在第六款就是退休後再就業這個部分是建議把文字再做更做一些修正就是能夠把它納入延緩退休繼續工作"},{"start":8136.067,"end":8137.988,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8153.935,"end":8168.873,"text":"第四點報告是林委員同時也建議增列第九款。第九款是希望增列推動中高齡者及高齡者部分時間工作模式。基本上在目前的這個部分工作時間這個部分,其實我們勞動部其實也因應整個未來的一個勞動就業的一個彈性的情況。"},{"start":8172.858,"end":8202.807,"text":"獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":8204.107,"end":8205.132,"text":"〔法定人數不足〕"},{"start":8210.538,"end":8235.162,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":8235.422,"end":8238.004,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8251.092,"end":8253.554,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8278.241,"end":8279.042,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":8303.932,"end":8321.577,"text":"主席,我想林業群委員剛剛的說明我是覺得可以認同,我們就是因為我們現在對壯世代的就業尤其退休後再就業我們是希望能夠積極來促成所以我覺得在這邊把那個"},{"start":8322.817,"end":8345.973,"text":"在就業的形態講清楚我就讓勞僱雙方也了解我覺得OK那另外就是那個第九款就是那個部分公司這也的確是壯世代在工作模式上一個非常重要大家需求啦所以我是覺得如果在我們既然要修就把它定名讓大家易於去了解我覺得這也可以接受啦"},{"start":8356.854,"end":8380.139,"text":"你們現在修正過後是不是再提一個版本出來?對,就是等於是林委員,照林委員,林瑞琴委員那個版本。他的跟王振旭文字都一樣嗎?沒有,他第六款跟第九款。他第六款跟王委員那邊是不一樣。那另外他第九款的部分,他是針鏈。對。"},{"start":8383.852,"end":8385.733,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8407.591,"end":8433.341,"text":"好來謝謝那第七條就等勞動部重新修正過後的文字再送上來再通過先保留來接下來是第九條報告委員第九條針對我們的這個中高齡高齡職營手冊那委員是建議是至少每兩年更新這個我們遵照辦理好那遵照辦理就按照"},{"start":8435.134,"end":8451.269,"text":"本席提案的通過我們就每兩年更新一次這個也是要確保大家得到的資訊可以是比較新的因為中高齡就業本來就比較困難你們有義務提供比較好的職場指引的手冊接下來第26條第26條委員是"},{"start":8460.669,"end":8481.173,"text":"國務卿委員因為提案是針對26條二項那希望能夠增列在營利事業雇用中高齡及高齡的薪資費用減除營利所得稅這個部分那因為這個也涉及到因為財政部跟經濟部那這個我們是建議尊重財政部跟經濟部的意見好來財政部來表示意見"},{"start":8483.278,"end":8500.651,"text":"是報告主席那針對呃郭委員這一個提案的部分他主要是想說企業去雇用這個中高齡或高齡的這個員工齁在申報所的稅的時候他針對支付他的這個薪資金額可以百分之一百五十的一個加成去做檢除然後在一千萬的額度內"},{"start":8501.391,"end":8528.803,"text":"除此之外,我們考量說目前新年的中小企業發展條例其實它的條文裡面也有這種徵雇員工的一個加成減除的優惠剛好在今年屆期經濟部跟財政部這邊已經有送了一個行政院的一個提案版本這個提案版本裡面也有包含針對45歲以上的員工如果中小企業這邊去做徵雇的一個動作的話那他的徵雇的這個員工的薪資費用也是可以用150%的一個"},{"start":8531.118,"end":8533.4,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案〉"},{"start":8559.117,"end":8562.081,"text":"條例的一個草案來一併來做推動以上報告好那請問各位有沒有意見好如果沒有意見的話那我們26條就維持現行條文好謝謝來第29條"},{"start":8574.939,"end":8597.287,"text":"第29條有王委員還有林岳勤委員的修正動議跟吳村委員的修正動議那29條主要是針對我們現行在這個54條第一項第一款就是強制退休年齡我們針對這個退休再就業是以往前一年那王委員是建議是不是往前兩年吳村委員是建議往前五年"},{"start":8597.987,"end":8599.868,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":8614.452,"end":8618.696,"text":"除了強制退休以外其實目前很多勞工其實他是透過自願退休那尤其是55歲以上自願退休的情況可能這個部分未來是我們在整個勞動力的一個推動的重點"},{"start":8635.333,"end":8664.922,"text":"所以我們是希望就是說如果我們希望能夠針對退休再就業這個部分能夠讓這樣等的勞動力的開發能夠做更周延的話那應該是要把第53條的這個自請退休這個部分把它一併納入所以我們是建議是不是能夠參採這個林瑞琴委員的修正版本未來我們把這個整個自請退休以及強制退休這個對象一併納入作為我們的一個後續的一個退休再就業的一個主要的一個推動的一個服務對象以上 拜拜"},{"start":8666.28,"end":8669.907,"text":"那個修正東西的條文是不是跟大家講一下是什麼?好來"},{"start":8688.837,"end":8708.006,"text":"第二九條僱主對於所僱用之中高齡者及高齡者得於其符合勞動基準法第53條或第54條第一項第一款規定時提供退休準備、調適或再就業之相關協助措施但是你這個沒有處理到"},{"start":8708.82,"end":8722.71,"text":"就是原來講的啊你那個原來54條第一項第一款你原條文還有退休前一年我的條文還有前兩年那你改的這個哪一年都沒有啊"},{"start":8725.785,"end":8752.123,"text":"因為這個54條原來是強制退休的那個65歲前就是64歲那基本上因為我們大概目前大部分其實很多是他是走53條自行退休那一個部分其實是目前我們所掌握到會比較沒有辦法納入到54條第一項第一關的情況我知道你要加53條沒有理解但你沒有處理到原來我提案的"},{"start":8752.623,"end":8752.923,"text":"),委員王育敏等"},{"start":8767.403,"end":8768.204,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 條文修正草案"},{"start":8786.482,"end":8788.484,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼"},{"start":8816.323,"end":8841.596,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":8842.455,"end":8846.197,"text":"等19人擬具 工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8859.259,"end":8885.761,"text":"這個根文報告原來那個條文是前一年前一年的時間內他才能夠使用我們這個退休債券本來我們的利益是說只要是54條第一項第一款這個年滿65歲的這樣的強制退休當他表達這樣的退休縱使在前兩年前三年我們就可以納入服務當然我們的概念並不是說要去限縮而是論委反而"},{"start":8886.121,"end":8912.638,"text":"但你這樣的修法的文字完全表達不出這樣的意思這感覺是更倒退你們要再修訂了你們這個不夠周圍再想一下來吳委員我們讓吳委員講一下那個這種退休準備當然是越早越好啦那既然呢這一個我覺得我贊成林月琴委員這一個加入第53條啦因為按照53條的話可能可以提早到55歲"},{"start":8913.899,"end":8916.501,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8939.48,"end":8955.036,"text":"五十三條或五十四條第一項第一款規定退休前五年因為五年大概六十歲就是也跟你前面五十三條的精神會比較一致是不是可以有這樣合併"},{"start":8965.058,"end":8965.078,"text":"第36條"},{"start":8981.422,"end":9003.792,"text":"第36條大概邱若華委員是提議36條就是建議得改成應應會商中央目的社會服務機關那這部分其實我們目前在執行上依照我們現行也是會商之後我們才會決定所以這個部分我們依照委員的意見我們無意見那至於說另外針對委員建議因為政府應該推動這個長壽產業來未來再讓整個中高齡高齡的就業商能夠"},{"start":9009.674,"end":9012.815,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":9042.005,"end":9070.196,"text":"獎項獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":9083.463,"end":9091.589,"text":"除夕可可以先休息讓好我們先休息10分鐘"},{"start":9111.182,"end":9113.525,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案"},{"start":9115.227,"end":9135.362,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9139.345,"end":9155.712,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草案 案 及 工會法第四條條文修正草"},{"start":9157.833,"end":9172.34,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〉"},{"start":9183.727,"end":9208.426,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":9211.104,"end":9234.686,"text":"除此之外﹑其中一人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案﹑其中一人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案﹑其中一人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案﹑其中一人擬具:「工會"},{"start":9240.316,"end":9242.799,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":9260.845,"end":9278.991,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 規範規範規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規規"},{"start":9281.052,"end":9302.72,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。閱讀委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。閱讀委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。閱讀委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修"},{"start":9303.08,"end":9319.197,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":9320.433,"end":9339.299,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":9340.239,"end":9357.005,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十"},{"start":9357.945,"end":9377.884,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 項目第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 項目第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 項目第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":9381.647,"end":9405.052,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":9409.254,"end":9428.792,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":9434.356,"end":9452.35,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〖一〗〗〗〗〗〗〗〗〗〗〗"},{"start":9459.275,"end":9476.348,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":9479.849,"end":9487.751,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9495.828,"end":9498.57,"text":"除此之外,五年這單位其實是福利條款,對,對,對,對啊,對,對啊"},{"start":9514.899,"end":9515.479,"text":"公務部長跟"},{"start":9539.36,"end":9545.518,"text":"》委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。 »:"},{"start":9779.636,"end":9779.917,"text":"經濟部表示意見"},{"start":9791.284,"end":9811.882,"text":"委員好 那個經濟部主要就是說其實政府其實這幾年非常重視這個高齡產業的發展那事實上那個行政院國科會他有一個國科會有提供一個叫做高齡科技產業的行動計畫在推動那事實上整個高齡科技產業在推動的部會"},{"start":9812.563,"end":9829.85,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件,包括了衛福部、文化部、經濟部、數位部,所有部會都有。經濟部表達,有很多部會都跟高齡產業有關。至於第36條條文的部分,經濟部沒有意見。」經濟部沒有意見,所以勞動部這邊也沒有意見嗎?"},{"start":9838.92,"end":9860.791,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »: 如果沒有意見的話,36條就按丘若驊委員提案的版本通過。如果沒有意見的話,36條就按丘若驊委員提案的版本通過。我們回過頭來處理剛剛保留的部分。我們先勞基法。勞基法第54條的部分,文字的部分因為有幾個版本。文字的部分因為有幾個版本。"},{"start":9861.331,"end":9888.736,"text":"委員都還有修正動議,那現在有沒有確定?有溝通好那個文字了嗎?好,來。 我要公布說明一下剛剛有溝通感謝吳委員還有感謝林委員大家都支持王振旭委員提的修正動議的版本第54條依照王振旭委員提的修正動議好,那如果大家沒有意見的話第54條按照修正動議版本通過"},{"start":9890.512,"end":9916.835,"text":"那那個第86條的部分剛剛也溝通就是說其實因為現行就已經可以勞資雙方協商了所以不需要再另訂實施日期86條就維持現行的條文好86條維持現行條文通過好那有關於第二案就是處理完畢就是按照好我念一下"},{"start":9918.854,"end":9941.186,"text":"做以下決議,勞動基準法第54條及第86條條文修正草案計兩案審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭吉委員欲明補充說明,不須交由黨團協商。好,那接下來我們處理"},{"start":9942.301,"end":9968.857,"text":"中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法條文修正草案來第七條的部分跟委員報告第七條跟林業勤委員的溝通那第七條最後的修正就是在第六款第六款文字就是推動中高齡者及高齡者之延緩退休及退休後再就業句號"},{"start":9969.878,"end":9970.32,"text":"除此之外,"},{"start":9977.964,"end":10006.847,"text":"第二項就是第二項這個部分要配合修正就是地方主管機關應依前二項就業計畫結合轄區產業特性推動中高齡者及高齡者就業那這兩個部分是依照剛剛所提到的那不要再補充那個第九款第一項第九款就是文字是推動中高齡者及高齡者之部分時間工作模式句號"},{"start":10008.169,"end":10020.127,"text":"公認跟林委員大概也溝通齁是依照這樣的文字做修正好那有關於呃第七條就按照勞動部修正的文字通過好來接下來"},{"start":10022.984,"end":10046.917,"text":"第29條在原來的文字上針對剛剛委員所提到的第54條這個部分好像確實會有一個問題所以這個部分我們是建議第29條的文字在參考剛剛在委員所提供的修正意見做一個綜合之後我們建議修正文字是這樣僱主對於所僱用之中高齡者及高齡者"},{"start":10047.857,"end":10069.943,"text":"則於其符合勞動基準法第53條規定時逗號或第54條第一項第一款前二年內提供退休準備、調適或再就業之相關協助措施。這個部分我們是覺得會比較周延跟妥適。好,那就按照勞動部修正的文字通過。"},{"start":10076.247,"end":10099.105,"text":"第九條,原來委員提供職場職營手冊,並至少每二年更新一次。這個我們沒有意見,但是因為法治用語,就是每兩年改成每二年,因為那個二是法治文字。按照剛剛勞動部修正的文字通過第九條。"},{"start":10101.069,"end":10102.35,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":10118.595,"end":10144.401,"text":"考量勞動部已依中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條會商各部會定定為期三年之中高齡者及高齡者就業促進計劃,為督促勞動部落實辦理。請勞動部定期每年依當前勞動情勢適時精進與調整計劃措施,以為中高齡者及高齡者就業權益提升勞參率。提案人委員林月琴、聯署人委員王振旭、黃秀芳、劉建國、陳盈宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10147.662,"end":10175.499,"text":"那針對這項附帶決議主管有沒有意見?沒有意見。沒有意見我們就通過。好。那做以下決議。中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法部分條文修正草案計四案審查完畢並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭吉委員譽名補充說明不須交由黨團協商。"},{"start":10177.944,"end":10197.022,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":10219.001,"end":10224.848,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10258.147,"end":10262.89,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案。」案。"},{"start":10281.059,"end":10304.756,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會議．立法院第16次全體委員會議．立法院第17次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第19次全體委員會議．立法院第20次全體委員會議．立法院第21次全體委員會議．立法院第22次全體委員會議．立法院第23次全體委員會議．立法院第24次全體委員會議．立法院第27次全體委員會議．立法院第28次全體委員會議．立法院第29次全體"},{"start":10308.579,"end":10319.893,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。​​​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案。​​​​"},{"start":10325.579,"end":10334.546,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10355.265,"end":10374.804,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"}]}},{"id":"15909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15909","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e43dc8870a7b167e2ad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be4918cc15cc7c449005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「證券投資信託及顧問法」3案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案」等2案。\n(二)\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「證券投資信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-15","start_time":"2024-05-15T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:56:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15945,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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請審議、證券投資投顧法部分修正條文草案等3案及委員郭國文等16人擬具不動產條例部分條文修正草案現在請議事以及證券投顧部分條文修正草案等3案及不動產"},{"start":2039.381,"end":2046.466,"text":"這個《證券條例修正草案》一案及條文修正內容含修正動議共二案現在請議事人員宣讀宣讀後預計70分鐘進行協商預計時間是10點20開始協商我們現在請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":2059.518,"end":2076.931,"text":"證券投資信託及顧問法修正草案行政院提案明稱修正為《證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問法》第一條對照現行條文前段文字修正為《為健全證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問業務之經營與發展》其與同現行條文"},{"start":2080.373,"end":2103.475,"text":"第二條新增第二項本法規定事項涉及不動產相關事項者由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關辦理等文字新增第三條之一本法所稱不動產投資信託指向不特定人募集不動產投資信託基金發行收益憑證或向特定人私募不動產投資信託基金交付收益憑證"},{"start":2104.696,"end":2118.183,"text":"從事於不動產、不動產相關權利、不動產相關有價證券或其他經主管機關核准項目之投資或交易本法所稱不動產投資信託事業只經主管機關許可以經營不動產投資信託為業之機構"},{"start":2121.044,"end":2145.455,"text":"不動產投資信託事業經營之業務總類如下一、不動產投資信託業務二、其他經主管機關核准之有關業務不動產投資信託事業經營之業務總類應報請主管機關核准第五條、第一項新增第二款二、不動產投資信託契約只由不動產投資信託事業為委託人、基金保管機構為受託人所簽訂"},{"start":2147.082,"end":2171.83,"text":"用以規範不動產投資信託事業、基金保管機構及受益人間權利義務之信託契約現行第二款調整為第三款現行第三款調整為第四款現行第五款調整為第七款證券投資信託契約修正為證券投資信託契約或不動產投資信託契約證券投資信託事業修正為證券投資信託事業或不動產投資信託事業"},{"start":2174.358,"end":2202.828,"text":"證券投資信託基金修正為證券投資信託基金或不動產投資信託基金增列第六款不動產投資信託基金指不動產投資信託契約之信託財產包括因受益憑證募集或私募所取得之申購價款所生之息及已知購入之各項資產或權利現行第四款、第六款至第九款及第十款至第十二款分別一列"},{"start":2204.329,"end":2230.148,"text":"第五款、第八款至第十一款及第十八款至第二十款內容未修正增頁第十二款至第十七款十二不動產指土地建築改良物道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭、停車場與其他具經濟價值之土地定著物及所依附之設施並以該設施與土地及其定著物分離及無法單獨創造價值"},{"start":2231.869,"end":2257.539,"text":"土地及其定著物資價值亦因而減損者為限。13不動產相關權利指地上權及其他經中央物地事業主管機關核定之權利。14不動產相關有價證券指經主管機關核定准予投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品。15開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利指正進行或規劃進行開發"},{"start":2259.02,"end":2277.435,"text":"建築、重建、整建之不動產或不動產相關權利。16專業估價者指不動產估價師或其他依法律得從事不動產估價業務者。17安排機構指對不動產投資信託基金收益憑證之募集或私募安排規劃整體事務者。"},{"start":2280.004,"end":2295.276,"text":"憎略第二項前項第17款所定安排機構應符合一定條件其一定條件及應受規範由同業工會恰商相關工會擬定報經主管機關合定第六條第一項修正為"},{"start":2296.377,"end":2323.513,"text":"非依本法不得經營證券投資信託、不動產投資信託、證券投資顧問及全權委託投資業務但依不動產證券化條例經營不動產投資信託業務者不在此限第三項刪除會商信託業法主管機關等文字第七條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業第三項增加或不動產投資信託基金之等文字"},{"start":2324.724,"end":2352.975,"text":"第八條第一項增加不動產投資信託業務第二項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字並增列第三項提供不動產投資信託基金投資標的之不動產所有人或不動產相關權利之權利人對於其所提供與不動產投資信託事業依本法規定製作文件之資料不得有虛偽、詐欺或其他阻止他人誤信之行為。信行第三項一列第四項"},{"start":2354.284,"end":2364.789,"text":"增加或不動產投資信託基金之等文字新增第二章之一章明不動產投資信託基金增略第49條之一至第49條之二十增略第49條之一"},{"start":2370.111,"end":2394.09,"text":"不動產投資信託事業募集或私募不動產投資信託基金非經主管機關核准或向主管機關申報生效後不得為之其申請核准或申報生效應檢附之書件、審核程序核准或申報生效之條件及其他應遵行事項之準則由主管機關定之主管機關於審核前項書件時應洽商相關業務主管機關出具意見書"},{"start":2398.823,"end":2418.28,"text":"基金之募集或私募、發行、銷售及其申購或買回之作業程序由同業工會擬定報經主管機關核定第一項及前項之基金如為國外募集或私募基金投資國內或與國內募集或私募基金投資國外者應經中央銀行同意"},{"start":2419.585,"end":2436.698,"text":"不動產投資信託基金以封閉型基金為限但經主管機關核准者得募及或私募賦買回時間、數量或其他限制之開放型基金增列第49條之二不動產投資信託契約應記載下列各款事項一、不動產"},{"start":2437.557,"end":2456.802,"text":"投資信託事業與基金保管機構之名稱及地址二、不動產投資信託基金之名稱及其程序期間三、不動產投資信託事業之權利、義務及法律責任四、基金保管機構之權利、義務及法律責任五、受益人之權利、義務及法律責任"},{"start":2457.475,"end":2473.724,"text":"六、運用不動產投資信託基金之基本方針、範圍及投資策略七、不動產投資信託基金有關介入款項與其上限及閒置資金之運用八、不動產投資信託基金之收益分配九、收益憑證之買回"},{"start":2477.526,"end":2491.46,"text":"使不動產投資信託基金應付擔之費用十一、不動產投資信託事業及基金保管機構之經理或保管費用十二、不動產投資信託基金及受益權單位淨資產價值之計算"},{"start":2495.494,"end":2514.941,"text":"不動產投資信託契約之終止事由受益人會議之召開事由、出席權術、表決權術及決議方式其他主管機關規定事項不動產投資信託契約範本應由同業工會洽商信託業商業同業工會擬定報經主管機關核定"},{"start":2517.998,"end":2541.681,"text":"不動產投資信託契約之變更應報經主管機關核准。經核准後,不動產投資信託事業應於二日內公告其內容。增列第49條之三,不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限,且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅。一、已有穩定收入之不動產及不動產相關權利"},{"start":2543.24,"end":2571.169,"text":"二、開發行之不動產及不動產相關權利三、不動產相關有價證券四、主管機關規定閒置資金之運用範圍五、其他經主管機關核准投資或運用之標的不動產投資信託基金投資於開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利時如須取得建造執照者應於該不動產或不動產相關權利領得建造執照後使得動用該基金款項"},{"start":2573.325,"end":2595.64,"text":"目擊之不動產投資信託基金投資於開發型不動產或不動產相關權利以下列各款標的為限一、依都市更新條例和訂之都市更新事業計劃範圍內或依都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例和准之重建計劃範圍內之土地、建築物及不動產相關權利"},{"start":2597.765,"end":2612.948,"text":"二、促進民間參與公共建設法所定公共建設三、經中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設不動產投資信託基金投資於開發型不動產或不動產相關權利不得超過該基金禁止"},{"start":2615.278,"end":2642.948,"text":"盡資產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關分別定值採募及方式者該比率不得超過百分之三十前二項之開發型不動產或不動產相關權利不得為下列標的一政府公股佔百分之二十以上事業政府或直接或間接控制之基金或法人參與投資比率合計超過百分之十者二"},{"start":2643.615,"end":2668.208,"text":"政府承諾承擔其債務或保證其營運收益者前項所定標的不含下列事項一、促進民間參與公共建設法第29條規定由主辦機關就公共建設非自償部分補貼其所需貸款利息或按營運績效給予補貼並於投資契約中定名二、提供不動產參與都市更新"},{"start":2669.315,"end":2685.873,"text":"不動產投資信託基金應至少有一定比率投資於有穩定收入之不動產或不動產相關權利且每年分配收益應達可分配收益之一定比率其可分配收益之範圍及一定比率由主管機關會商財政部定值"},{"start":2687.145,"end":2704.403,"text":"第一項及前段不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制、閒置資金運用範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定職不動產投資信託基金向關係人取得或處分資產應依規定辦理相關決議程序"},{"start":2707.603,"end":2723.958,"text":"評估交易條件之合理性及取得專業估價者出具之估價報告或會計室意見並因於事實發生之日起二日內公告其內容。前線關係人之範圍決議程序交易條件之評估方式公告方式、估價報告或"},{"start":2726.061,"end":2740.978,"text":"會計師意見之出具方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之。增列第49條之四不動產投資信託事業募集不動產投資信託基金應依主管機關規定之方式向申購人交付公開說明書"},{"start":2745.08,"end":2763.603,"text":"不動產投資信託事業向特定人私募不動產投資信託基金對應募人之請求,附有交付投資說明書之義務不動產投資信託事業未依前二項規定交付公開說明書或投資說明書者對於生意相對人因而所受之損害應付賠償責任"},{"start":2765.834,"end":2778.452,"text":"公開說明書或投資說明書應記載之主要內容有虛偽或隱匿知情是下列各款之人對於善意相對人因而所受之損害應就其所應負責部分與不動產投資信託事業負連帶賠償責任"},{"start":2781.676,"end":2802.669,"text":"一、不動產投資信託事業之負責人二、不動產投資信託事業之職員曾在公開說明書或投資說明書上簽章以證實其所記載內容之全部或一部者三、提供不動產投資信託基金投資標的之不動產所有人及其負責人不動產相關權利之權利人及其負責人"},{"start":2803.911,"end":2817.989,"text":"安排機構及其負責人會計師、律師、專業估價者、其他專門職業或技術人員曾在公開說明書或投資說明書上簽章以證實其所記載內容之全部或一部或陳述意見者"},{"start":2819.878,"end":2844.759,"text":"前項應負責任者除不動產投資信託事業外各款之人就其所應負責部分如能證明已盡相當之注意並有正當理由確信其主要內容無虛偽、隱匿情勢或對於簽證之意見有正當理由確信其為真實者免負賠償責任第一項公開說明書及第二項投資說明書其應記載事項之準則由主管機關定之"},{"start":2846.604,"end":2872.316,"text":"增列第49條之五,不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務得依不動產投資信託契約之約定指示基金保管機構於一定比率內以基金專戶名義向金融機構辦理借款並度外公告但借款之目的以不動產或不動產相關權利只取得開發、營運或以分配收益所必需或其他經主管機關同意者為限"},{"start":2873.513,"end":2897.343,"text":"不動產投資信託事業得於借入款項之範圍就信託財產為不動產抵押權或其他擔保物權之設定該擔保物權之權利人於不動產抵押權或其他擔保物權之設定範圍內僅得對信託財產申請法院裁定後強制執行第一項借款至一定比率、公告方式及其他相關事項由主管機關定值"},{"start":2898.413,"end":2927.02,"text":"增列第49條之六不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金應依據其分析作成決定交付執行時應作成記錄並應定期向董事會提出檢討其分析與決定應有合理基礎及根據前項分析、決定、執行及檢討之方式不動產投資信託事業應訂定於內部控制制度並確實執行其控制作業應留存記錄並保存一定期限"},{"start":2927.74,"end":2941.63,"text":"其保存期限由主管機關定之徵列第49條之七不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金從事投資或交易之方式與為指示保管處分"},{"start":2942.58,"end":2969.688,"text":"收付及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定職不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金所持有之資產除下列情形外應以基金保管機構之基金專戶名義登記一、不動產或不動產相關權利依土地登記規則辦理登記二、國外之資產依資產所在地法令或基金保管機構與國外受託保管機構所定契約辦理登記"},{"start":2970.868,"end":2998.24,"text":"增列第49條之八不動產投資信託事業應依法及不動產投資信託契約之規定運用不動產投資信託基金除本法或本法授權訂定之命令另有規定外不得為下列行為一、指示基金保管機構為放款或提供擔保二、與本不動產投資信託事業經理之其他不動產投資信託基金間為交易行為"},{"start":2999.7,"end":3011.406,"text":"3.投資於本不動產投資信託事業或與本不動產投資信託事業有利害關係之公司所發行之證券4."},{"start":3011.406,"end":3015.587,"text":"運用不動產投資信託基金買入該基金之受益憑證5."},{"start":3015.587,"end":3023.411,"text":"其他經主管機關規定之禁止事項前項第三款所定有利害關係之公司其範圍由主管機關定之"},{"start":3025.668,"end":3037.162,"text":"證頁第49條之九不動產投資信託事業應至少每3個月評審不動產投資信託基金之資產一次於必要時或依不動產投資信託契約之約定並得洽請"},{"start":3039.726,"end":3058.991,"text":"專業估價者或專家出具相關估價報告書或意見作為評審基金資產之參考評審結果於報告董事會後應公告之不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金從事達主管機關規定之一定金額之不動產或不動產相關權利交易前"},{"start":3060.011,"end":3083.764,"text":"應先洽請專業估價者依不動產估價施法之規定出具估價報告書並應於事實發生之日及二日內公告之。前二項所稱之專業估價者或專家應與不動產投資信託事業及交易當事人無國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事"},{"start":3085.39,"end":3095.692,"text":"第一項及第二項之估價報告書範本由不動產估價主管機關或不動產估價師工會定定之同業工會應對不動產投資信託基金之資產評審擬定評審原則報經主管機關核定增列第49條之十不動產投資信託事業應於每營業日計算不動產投資信託基金進資產增價值"},{"start":3111.974,"end":3139.858,"text":"不動產投資信託事業應於每一營業日公告前一營業日不動產投資信託基金每受益權單位之淨資產價值但不動產或其他基金資產之資產價值於公告期間內無重大變更且對基金之淨資產價值無重大影響者得依不動產投資信託契約之約定以附註揭露方式替代對該不動產或基金資產"},{"start":3140.768,"end":3142.433,"text":"之資產價值重新估價計算"},{"start":3145.455,"end":3165.771,"text":"同業工會應對不動產投資信託基金競資產價值之計算擬定計算標準報經主管機關核定正列第49條之十一不動產投資信託事業項特定人私募之不動產投資信託基金不適用第49條之二第三項第49條之三第九項第49條之九第一項第二項"},{"start":3171.255,"end":3180.703,"text":"第49條之十第二項及第100條第三項有關公告之規定但因依不動產投資信託契約之規定向收益人報告"},{"start":3182.268,"end":3206.062,"text":"憎略第49條之十二不動產投資信託及經濟資產其全部或一部依信託契約之約定出租時其租金得不受土地法第97條第一項規定之限制租賃期限不受民法第449條第一項規定二十年之限制但最長不得超過信託契約之程序期間憎略第49條之十三"},{"start":3208.001,"end":3233.16,"text":"於本條文生效日起算10年內買賣不動產投資信託基金收益憑證停徵證券交易稅增略第49條之14不動產投資信託基金投資所得之收益應至少每年分配一次並應於不動產投資信託契約內明定分配日期前項收益不計入不動產投資信託事業之盈利事業所得額"},{"start":3234.501,"end":3262.271,"text":"於依前項規定分配時為受益人之所得按利息所得課稅第一項收益分配時應以不動產投資信託事業為扣繳義務人依所得稅法規定扣繳稅款受益人為個人者與本條文生效日期算10年內不並計其總額受益人為盈利事業者應記錄其分配年度盈利事業所得而依所得稅法規定課稅"},{"start":3265.066,"end":3283.147,"text":"正列第49條之十五不動產投資信託基金以土地為投資標的該土地之遞交稅於信託關係程序中以基金保管機構為納稅義務人其一納稅額之計算就該基金資產在同一直轄市或縣市"},{"start":3285.395,"end":3300.666,"text":"轄區內之所有信託土地合併計算地價總額。依土地稅法第16條規定稅率課增地價稅。增列第49條之16不動產投資信託基金所持有之建築物得依固定資產耐用年數"},{"start":3301.806,"end":3327.561,"text":"表規定之耐用年數延長二分之一計算每年之折舊費用但經選定延長年限提列折舊者事後年度及不得變更爭略第49條之17不動產投資信託事業得為不動產投資信託基金之合併依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金得與依不動產證券化條例發行之不動產投資信託基金合併"},{"start":3328.959,"end":3344.689,"text":"前項合併應經主管機關核准不同意合併之受益人得請求不動產投資信託事業按當時公平價格買回其持有之受益權單位合併與請求買回之條件、程序、方式"},{"start":3345.393,"end":3372.436,"text":"及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之不動產投資信託契約中指示清算人應於主管機關核准清算後12個月內完成不動產投資信託基金之清算並將清算後之餘額依受益權單位數之比率分派於各受益人但有證單理由未能於12個月內完成清算者於期限屆滿前得向主管機關申請展言一次並以12個月為限"},{"start":3374.625,"end":3388.621,"text":"清算人應將前項清算及分配之方式向主管機關申報及公告並通知受益人清算程序終結後應於2個月內將處理結果向主管機關報備並通知受益人"},{"start":3389.761,"end":3411.518,"text":"增列第49條之18不動產投資信託事業經主管機關核准以合併為目的設立無基金資產之不動產投資信託基金概括承受依不動產證券化條例規定之成立之一個不動產投資信託基金消滅不動產投資信託基金投資之不動產不動產相關權利不動產相關有價證券"},{"start":3415.575,"end":3428.965,"text":"因而並而移轉,適用下列規定一、所說立之各項器具憑證非屬印花稅課徵範圍二、其不動產移轉非屬契稅課徵範圍三、其有價證券移轉非屬證券交易稅課徵範圍四、其移轉之貨物或老物非屬營業稅課徵範圍五、其不動產、不動產相關權利及有價證券之移轉"},{"start":3440.354,"end":3458.962,"text":"非屬所得稅課徵範圍6其不動產移轉不課徵土地增值稅但於在移轉依法應課徵土地增值稅時以該土地合併前之原規定地價或最近一次課徵土地增值稅時合併之申報移轉限值為原地價計算漲價總數額課徵土地增值稅"},{"start":3464.349,"end":3491.627,"text":"增列第49條之19不動產投資信託事業所經理之不動產投資信託基金經主管機關核准與同事業之其他不動產投資信託基金合併存續之不動產投資信託基金對於消滅之不動產投資信託基金所持有之不動產、不動產相關權利、不動產相關有價證券因合併而移轉,適用下列規定一、所疏利之各項器具憑證非屬印花稅課程範圍"},{"start":3494.669,"end":3522.927,"text":"二、其不動產移轉非屬契稅課徵範圍三、其有價證券移轉非屬證券交易稅課徵範圍四、其移轉之貨物或老物非屬營業稅課徵範圍五、於本條文生效日起算十年內因合併而消滅之不動產投資信託基金所持有之土地經申報審核確定其土地已轉現之後即與辦理土地所有權移轉登記其因繳納之土地增值稅"},{"start":3523.787,"end":3539.346,"text":"准予寄存,由存續之不動產投資信託基金於該項土地再移轉時,以並繳納之不動產投資信託契約終止時,經寄存之土地增值稅應優先受償。政略第49條之20"},{"start":3541.052,"end":3558.153,"text":"第十一條、第一項至第三項、第五項及第六項、第十三條、第二十條至第二十七條、第三十二條至第四十二條、第四十四條、第四十五條、第四十八條及第四十九條規定於不動產投資信託基金準用值"},{"start":3561.727,"end":3576.826,"text":"修正第四章章名《證券投資信託事業、不動產投資信託事業及證券投資顧問事業》第63條第一項、第二項、第三項增加不動產投資信託事業第二項後段增列並合法"},{"start":3578.44,"end":3596.376,"text":"行業執照後使得行業等文字第66條第一項後段增列證券投資信託事業符合主管機關所定之條件並取得許可者得兼營不動產投資信託事業等文字第67條第一項、第二項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字"},{"start":3597.455,"end":3616.983,"text":"第68條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字現行條文解認之修正為應予解認第一款至第三款增加尚未執行等文字新增第四款懲犯貪污治罪條例之罪經有罪判決確定尚未執行、尚未執行完畢或執行完畢"},{"start":3617.925,"end":3630.835,"text":"緩刑期滿或赦免後,尚未於二年。現行第四款調整為第五款,增加期貨交易法、不動產證券化條例、洗錢防治法、滋恐防治法及尚未執行等文字。"},{"start":3631.531,"end":3656.263,"text":"現行第五款至第十四款依序調整款次為第六款至第十五款第五款至第七款增加尚未執行等文字第八款增加或經法院裁定開始清算程序等文字第九款尚未恢復往來修正為尚未期滿第十一款修正為授證券交易法第五十六條第六十六條第二款本法第103條第二款第104條或第104條之一準用第103條"},{"start":3660.646,"end":3663.937,"text":"第二款解除職務之處分尚未於3年"},{"start":3665.148,"end":3693.469,"text":"第12款增加不動產投資信託事業及第104條之一準用第103條第10款或第5款等文字第13款增加貨售信託業法第44條第一款解除職務之處分等文字第14款增加不動產投資信託事業第15款增加不動產投資信託等文字第69條增加不動產投資信託事業及專任與兼職限制等文字"},{"start":3695.731,"end":3719.213,"text":"第七十條增加不動產投資信託事業等文字第七十條之一第一項、第二項增加不動產投資信託事業第一項、第一款增加不動產投資信託等文字第七十一條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業及第四十九條之八第一項第二項不動產投資信託事業及"},{"start":3721.769,"end":3739.388,"text":"第三條之一第三項等文字第72條增加不動產投資信託事業及與其他相關事項及管理等文字第74條第一項後段修正為轉讓持股前第三項修正文字分派員工酬勞"},{"start":3741.072,"end":3766.364,"text":"新增第二節之一節名不動產投資信託事業增略第82條之一至第82條之五新增第82條之一經營不動產投資信託事業之發起人應具備一定資格條件發起人中應有具備不動產投資管理相關經驗之機構且其所任股份何計不得少於第一次發行股份值50%"},{"start":3768.396,"end":3776.693,"text":"其轉讓持股前不動產投資信託事業應申報主管機關被查前項花期人資資格條件由主管機關定之"},{"start":3777.694,"end":3795.719,"text":"不動產投資信託事業應有一名以上符合前二項所定資格條件之股東除以發行新股分派員工酬勞、發行新股保留由員工承購或符合一定條件者外其合計持有股份不得少於已發行股份總數50%轉讓此股時,不動產投資信託事業應與轉讓前申報主管機關被查前項一定條件由主管機關定資"},{"start":3804.912,"end":3820.15,"text":"不動產投資信託事業之負責人、部門主管或分支機構經理人不得投資於其他不動產投資信託事業或經為其他不動產投資信託事業之董事或經理人但主管機關令有規定者不在此限"},{"start":3821.184,"end":3837.442,"text":"新增第82條之二不動產投資信託事業之股東除符合前條資格條件者外每股東與其關係人及股東利用他人名義持有股份合計不得超過該公司已發行股份總數25%前項關係人之範圍由主管機關定之"},{"start":3843.823,"end":3871.841,"text":"新增第82條之三不動產投資信託事業之發起人自公司設立之日起算一年內不得兼為其他不動產投資信託事業之發起人曾依第82條之一、第二項所定資格擔任不動產投資信託事業之發起人者自主管機關核發該不動產投資信託事業營業執照之日起算三年內不得再擔任其他不動產投資信託事業之發起人"},{"start":3873.208,"end":3891.567,"text":"新增第82條之二不動產投資信託事業應設置獨立董事及審計委員會並以審計委員會替代監察人前項獨立董事、審計委員會之設置及其他應遵行事項準用《證券交易法》第14條之二至第14條之五相關規定"},{"start":3893.075,"end":3903.564,"text":"新增第82條之五、第73條、第79條至第81條規定與不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務準用之第84條增加不動產投資信託事業等文字第87條增加與不動產證券投資等文字第94條增加及證券投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託事業等文字"},{"start":3920.66,"end":3936.702,"text":"第100條第一項後段修正為與每會期年度第二季終了後45日內編具半年度財務報告新增第二項不動產投資信託事業運用每一不動產投資信託基金應依主管機關規定之格式及內容"},{"start":3937.643,"end":3959.53,"text":"與每會計年度終了後3個月內編具年度財務報告與每會計年度第二季終了後45日內編具半年度財務報告向主管機關申報現行第二項一列為第三項修正為前二項年度財務報告應經主管機關和准值會計時查和簽證半年度財務報告應經會計時合約"},{"start":3963.774,"end":3970.95,"text":"並經基金保管機構簽署。證券投資信託事業及不動產投資信託事業並應予以公告之。"},{"start":3972.506,"end":3983.317,"text":"正列第四項,不動產投資信託事業為編具不動產投資信託基金年度財務報告應先洽請專業估價者依不動產估價施法規定出具估價報告書半年度財務報告之編具得洽請專業估價者或專家出具估價報告書或意見上開估價報告時諸出具"},{"start":3997.33,"end":4008.487,"text":"因依第49條之九第三項及第四項規定辦理,現行第三項一列為第五項修改為第一項及第二項年度財務報告等文字。"},{"start":4013.493,"end":4031.358,"text":"第101條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業及或會同相關業務主管機關派員等文字第104條增加不動產投資信託事業及或第104條之一準用錢條等文字增列第104條之一第93條、第95條、第96條、第98條、第99條"},{"start":4037.369,"end":4064.39,"text":"第102條及第103條規定與不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務準用之第105條第一項增加不動產投資信託業務等文字第105條之一第一項增加不動產投資信託事業不動產投資信託基金資產等文字第106條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字第一項之"},{"start":4065.458,"end":4084.395,"text":"第一至第三款均增加情勢增列第二項有下列情勢之一自身損害於公眾、他人或基金資產者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":4085.356,"end":4102.164,"text":"一、提供不動產投資信託基金投資標的之不動產所有人不動產相關權利之權利人或安排機構交付虛偽不實之資料或以其他不正方法使不動產投資信託事業於依本法規定交付之文件有虛偽或隱匿之情勢"},{"start":4106.943,"end":4119.735,"text":"二、專業估價者依本法規定出具之估價報告書有虛謂或隱匿之形式第107條第一項第二款增加不動產投資信託業務、證券投資顧問業務等文字第108條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字"},{"start":4126.104,"end":4143.149,"text":"第111條第一項增交不動產投資信託事業等文字修正處罰規定為1500萬元以下罰還並得令期限期改善藉其為改善者得按次處罰第一款至第11款文字修正"},{"start":4143.689,"end":4166.678,"text":"一、違反第三條之一第四項或第四條第四項規定經營未經主管機關和準職業務二、違反主管機關一第十四條第一項、第十八條第一項、第四十九條之七第一項或第五十六條第一項所定辦法有關投資交易範圍、方式或限制之規定"},{"start":4168.473,"end":4183.322,"text":"3違反主管機關一第16條第10項所定辦法有關投資交易範圍或限制之規定4違反第16條之一第一項、第19條第一項、第49條之八第一項、第49條之九第一項至第三項、第51條第一項或第59條規定"},{"start":4190.638,"end":4214.33,"text":"五、違反第49條之三、第一項之第七項、第九項規定或主管機關一、第八項所定辦法有關投資範圍或限制資金運用範圍之規定或一、第十項所定辦法有關關係人之範圍、決議程序、交易條件之評估方式、公告方式、估價報告或會計時意見之出具方式之規定"},{"start":4216.43,"end":4227.499,"text":"違反第49條之五第一項、第二項規定或違反主管機關一第三項所定有關借款至一定比率公告方式之規定違反主管機關一"},{"start":4230.015,"end":4239.184,"text":"58條第二項所定有關投資標的分散比例之規定8違反第63條第一項規定未經主管機關合法營業執照而營業或違反第63條第二項規定未經主管機關許可並合法營業執照而營業"},{"start":4247.489,"end":4257.334,"text":"九違反主管機關一第69條所定規則有關人員資格條件、專任或兼職限制、行為規範、訓練、登記期限、程序之規定"},{"start":4261.211,"end":4289.111,"text":"10違反主管機關一第七十條所定規則有關限制禁止之規定11違反主管機關一第七十二條所定規則有關財務業務遷移財撤或管理之規定第112條第一項文字修正為並得令其限期改善藉其未改善者得按次處罰1為依第十五條第一項或第四十九條之四第一項規定交付公開說明書"},{"start":4291.174,"end":4317.485,"text":"違反第63條第三項規定使用類似證券投資信託事業、不動產投資信託事業或證券投資顧問事業之名稱第113條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字修正文字並得令其限期改善,藉其予改善者得按次處罰第二款至第六款修正文字為違反第17條第一項、第二項或第49條之六規定"},{"start":4320.165,"end":4326.469,"text":"3為議第20條或第49條之二十準用第20條規定提供查閱4為議第26條、第49條、第49條之二十準用第26條或第49條、第74條第一項、第三項、第81條第一項、第82條之一、第一項、第三項、第82條之五準用"},{"start":4345.858,"end":4347.923,"text":"81條第一項、第99條第一項、第100條第三項及第4項"},{"start":4352.355,"end":4370.74,"text":"或依第104條之一準用第99條第一項規定製作、申報、公告、備制或保存帳簿、表冊、傳票、財務報告或其他有關業務之文件或事項五違反第29條第一項、第43條第一款、第45條第4項、第49條之二第三項、第49條之十第二項、第49條之二十準用第45條第4項"},{"start":4380.216,"end":4402.407,"text":"第96條第4項、第5項或第104條之一准用第96條第4項、第5項有關應公告規定6、未依第47條第二項或第49條之17第4項規定申報、公告、通知或報備第9款修正文字為標準"},{"start":4404.551,"end":4423.359,"text":"第11款修正為違反第96條第二項或第104條之一準用第96條第二項規定,無正當理由拒絕主管機關之指定承受。第114條修正後段文自為並得令其限期改善,藉其為改善者得按次處罰。"},{"start":4424.6,"end":4432.428,"text":"第115條增加或第49條至20準用第21條、第23條第一項、第24條第一項、第40條第一項等文字第121條刪除、第122條刪除委員郭國文等16人提案"},{"start":4446.517,"end":4463.212,"text":"對照行政院提案版本第五條、第一項十二款不動產指土地、建築改良物、道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭、停車場與其他具經濟價值之土地定著物及其所依附設施刪除行政院版本"},{"start":4463.872,"end":4490.605,"text":"並以該設施與土地及其定著物分離及無法單獨創造價值、土地及其定著物之價值以因而減損者為限等文字。第14款不動產相關有價證券指經主管機關核定準與投資之不動產證券化商品、金融資產證券化商品或其他不動產相關有價證券叫行政院版本增加後段或其他不動產相關有價證券等文字。"},{"start":4492.116,"end":4515.038,"text":"身處行政院版第15款關於開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利之定義第49條之三不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅一不動產二不動產相關權利三不動產相關有價證券四"},{"start":4516.579,"end":4539.698,"text":"主管機關規定閒置資金之運用範圍。其他經主管機關核准投資或運用之標的。不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者,以依不動產興建計劃及財務計劃建立控管,就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定,並可預期興建完成之不動產據收益者為限。"},{"start":4540.836,"end":4563.749,"text":"目擊積私募之不動產投資信託基金投資於開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利不得超過該基金信託財產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關中央目的事業主管機關分別定之不動產投資信託基金應投資於有穩定收入或"},{"start":4564.994,"end":4579.131,"text":"具可預期收益之不動產或不動產相關權利且每年分配收益應達可分配收益之一定比率其可分配收益之範圍及一定比率由主管機關會商財政部定之"},{"start":4580.489,"end":4607.454,"text":"第一項及前項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制、閒置資金運用範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定職不動產投資信託基金向關係人取得或處分資產因依規定辦理相關決議程序、評估交易條件之合理性及取得專業估價者出具值估價報告或會計師意見並因於事實發生之日及二日內公告其內容"},{"start":4608.374,"end":4623.783,"text":"前項關係人之範圍、決議意見、程序、交易條件之評估方式、公告方式、估價報告或會計師意見之出具方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第49條之17"},{"start":4626.274,"end":4647.622,"text":"不動產投資信託事業得為不動產投資信託基金之合併。依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金得與依不動產證券化條例發行之不動產投資信託基金合併。依不動產證券化條例發行之不動產投資信託基金得轉至為依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金。"},{"start":4648.86,"end":4669.126,"text":"前向合併或轉資應經主管機關核准不同意合併或轉資之受益人得請求不動產投資信託事業按當時公平價格買回其持有之受益權單位合併轉資與請求買回之條件、程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":4670.606,"end":4694.448,"text":"不動產投資信託契約終止時清算人應於主管機關核准清算後12個月內完成不動產投資信託基金之清算並將清算後之餘而依受益權單位數之比率分派於各受益人但有證單理由未能於12個月內完成清算者於期限屆滿前得向主管機關申請展延一次並以12個月為限"},{"start":4697.031,"end":4720.464,"text":"清算人應將前項清算及分配之方式向主管機關申報及公告並通知受益人清算程序終結後應於2個月內將處理結果向主管機關報備並通知受益人依第一項進行合併之租稅措施準用企業併購法第39條規定其餘均同行政院提案條文"},{"start":4723.7,"end":4738.644,"text":"委員林楚茵等17人提案法案名稱修正為《證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問法》第一條修正前段文字為《為健全證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問業務之經營與發展》"},{"start":4741.291,"end":4767.081,"text":"第二條新增第二項本法規定事項涉及不動產相關事項者由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關辦理新增第三條之一本法所稱不動產投資信託指向不特定人募集不動產投資信託基金發行收益憑證或向特定人私募不動產投資信託基金交付收益憑證從事於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅以外之不動產"},{"start":4767.921,"end":4782.685,"text":"不動產相關權利、不動產相關有價證券或其他經主管機關核准項目之投資或交易本法所稱不動產投資信託事業只經主管機關許可以經營不動產投資信託為業之機構不動產投資信託事業經營之業務總類如下一、不動產投資信託業務二、其他經主管機關核准之有關業務"},{"start":4793.462,"end":4794.603,"text":"不動產投資信託事業經營之業務種類應報請主管機關核准。"},{"start":4847.594,"end":4872.563,"text":"接續宣讀委員郭國文等16人擬具不動產證券化條例部分。第四條對照現行條文相處第一項第一款後段單書規定並修正為一、不動產指土地建築改良物、道路橋樑隧道、軌道碼頭、停車場與其他具經濟價值之土地並著物及所依附之設施。"},{"start":4875.373,"end":4878.015,"text":"地項第三款修正為3."},{"start":4878.015,"end":4890.723,"text":"不動產相關與有價證券至今主管機關核定準與投資之不動產證券化商品、金融資產證券化商品或其他不動產相關之有價證券"},{"start":4895.257,"end":4907.695,"text":"刪除第一項第18款其餘未修正第六條對照性行條文第五項修正為發起人已讓予之不動產或不動產相關權利由設定抵押權者發起人依予讓予時辦理圖銷並檢據相關證明文件與受託機構"},{"start":4914.491,"end":4936.457,"text":"增訂第六項為受託機構申請或申報募集或私募不動產投資信託基金時有未確定之投資標的者依據投資計劃中續名其原因可能來源則定之程序時及即未取得該投資標的時之處理方案追加募集者一同其餘未修正"},{"start":4944.946,"end":4970.058,"text":"第八條對照線型條文第二項修正為請向第五款及第七款所定出具意見之專家應與受託機構及不動產所有人無國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之請示其餘未修正第九條對照線型條文第五項修正為受託機構募集或私募不動產投資信託基金與核准或申報生肖之最高總額外"},{"start":4971.619,"end":4995.861,"text":"追加孟吉或斯穆達一定比率及金額者應經受益人會議決議並適用第六條規定,不適用前三項規定其一定比率及金額由主管機關定之,其餘未修正。第十七條對照線型條文第一項序文第一款第二款修正為不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限"},{"start":4996.602,"end":5020.161,"text":"且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅一、不動產二、不動產相關權利徵定第二項為不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者以一、不動產興建計劃及財務計劃建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定"},{"start":5021.142,"end":5031.714,"text":"並可預期興建完成之不動產據收益者為限。現行第二項已列為第三項,據中前項文字配合修正為第一項,現行第三項已列為第四項。"},{"start":5035.169,"end":5061.07,"text":"刪除縣刑第四項、第五項、第七項及第八項規定縣刑第六項已列為第五項並修正為積私募資不動產投資信託基金投資於開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利不得超過該基金信託財產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關中央目的事業主管機關分別定之其予未修正"},{"start":5062.304,"end":5081.201,"text":"第19條對照現行條文第一項但書修正為但介入款項之目的以第17條第一項第一款至第三款及第五款標的之取得開發營運或以配發利息、資息或其他收益所必需者為限其餘未修正。第22條"},{"start":5082.962,"end":5106.526,"text":"對照現行條文第一項後段修正為應先洽請專業估價者依不動產估價施法規定出具估價報告書並因與事實發生之日起二日內公告之第三項第三款修正為3專業估價者及其估價人員應與交易當事人5國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事"},{"start":5108.362,"end":5133.577,"text":"身處第四項其餘未修正。增訂第25條之一為依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金得進行合併。傾向合併應經主管機關核准。不同意合併之受益人得請求受託機構按當時公平價格買回其持有之受益權單位。合併與請求買回之條件、程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":5134.177,"end":5145.645,"text":"由主管機關定之,依第一項進行合併之租稅措施,應准用企業併購法第39條之規定。第26條對照現行條文第三項修正為前項專業估價者或專家、英語受託機構五國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事,其餘未修正。"},{"start":5158.41,"end":5176.605,"text":"第三十一條對照現行條文第二項修正為前項第四款第四目及第六款規定出具意見之專家應予委託人及受託機構五國際會計準則第二十四號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事其餘未修正"},{"start":5179.626,"end":5201.765,"text":"繼續宣讀委員顧國文賴會員李坤成等人所提修正動議部分。第四條,墮照現行條文第一項第三款修正為三不動產相關有價證券,只經主管機關核定準與投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品,並刪除第一項第18款其餘未修正。"},{"start":5205.936,"end":5227.044,"text":"第六條對照線型條文增訂第六項為受託機構申請或申報募集或私募不動產投資信託受益證券時有未確定之投資標的者相關申請書件應載明知項目及其他應遵循事項之辦法由主管機關定之追加募集者一同其餘未修正"},{"start":5228.41,"end":5245.043,"text":"第17條對照現行條文第一項序文第一款、第二款本比修正為不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款鎖定住宅一不動產二不動產相關權利"},{"start":5248.178,"end":5265.179,"text":"憎定第二項為不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者已就不動產興建計劃及財務計劃已建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定並可預期興建完成之不動產具收益者為限"},{"start":5266.5,"end":5289.889,"text":"現行第二項一列為第三項,具中前項文字配合修正為第一項現行第三項一列為第四項,相處現行第七項、第五項、第四項、第八項規定現行第六項一列為第五項,首具修正為穆吉吉斯穆之不動產投資信託基金投資與開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利"},{"start":5293.81,"end":5304.026,"text":"增訂第六項為第一項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之其餘未修正"},{"start":5307.128,"end":5326.715,"text":"第22條對照現行條文第一項後端修正為應先洽請相關估價者依不動產估價施法規定出具估價報告書並應於事實發生之日期二日內於受託機構本機構所在地之日報或依主管機關規定之方式辦理公告"},{"start":5329.212,"end":5344.066,"text":"第三項第三款修正為3專業估價者及其估價人員應與教育當事人5國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事其餘未修審以上宣讀完畢"},{"start":5375.603,"end":5399.839,"text":"委員郭國文、賴會員李坤誠所提《證券投資信託及顧問法修正動議》第五條第一項第十五款專業估價者指不動產估價師或其他依法律得從事不動產估價業務者"},{"start":5404.571,"end":5415.638,"text":"第16款 安排機構只對不動產投資信託基金受益憑證之募集或私募安排規劃整體事務者第49條之三"},{"start":5430.137,"end":5450.772,"text":"第49條之三、第二項不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者已就不動產興建計劃及財務計劃已建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定並可預期興建完成之不動產據收益者為限"},{"start":5451.914,"end":5477.419,"text":"前項投資不得超過該基金淨資產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關分別定值產募及方式者該比率不得超過30%第一項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制、閒置資金運用範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定值"},{"start":5485.214,"end":5491.319,"text":"第49條之11對照行政院提案條文修正第49條之3、第6項第111條"},{"start":5509.537,"end":5537.769,"text":"第一項、第五款修正違反第49條之三第一項至第四項、第六項規定或主管機關依第五項所定辦法有關投資範圍或限制、閒置資金運用範圍之規定或依第七項所定辦法有關關係人資範圍、決議程序、交易條件之評估方式、公告方式、估價報告或會計師意見之出具方式之規定"},{"start":5550.563,"end":5556.093,"text":"委員王世堅所提修正動議第49條之三第六項"},{"start":5563.117,"end":5583.643,"text":"第一款一促進民間參與公共建設法第九條之一規定主辦機關於公共建設營運期間有償取得其公共服務之全部或一部或第29條規定由主辦機關就公共建設非自償部分補貼其所需貸款、利息或按營運績效給予補貼並於投資契約中定名"},{"start":5589.132,"end":5590.793,"text":"委員會委員郭國文提出修正動議"},{"start":5620,"end":5625.467,"text":"委員王鴻薇、李燕秀、陳玉珍所提修正動議第49條之三"},{"start":5644.861,"end":5663.027,"text":"第三項、第三款經中英目的事業主管機關或直轄市縣市政府核准參與之公共建設第49條之五第一項修正向非利害關係人之"},{"start":5671.724,"end":5696.016,"text":"委員吳麗華、郭國文、賴慧媛所提修正動議第一條後段促進我國基礎建設及產業升級轉型並接軌國際責任投資達成永續發展目標特制定本法本法未規定者適用《證券交易法》之規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":5702.39,"end":5702.69,"text":"第五條"},{"start":5711.405,"end":5735.895,"text":"第五條第一項第十二款十二不動產指土地建築改良物道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭、停車場促進民間參與公共建設法第三條第一項所列之公共建設與其他具經濟價值之土地定著物及所依附之設施及為維持上述不動產及設施營運所必要之資產"},{"start":5740.101,"end":5740.121,"text":"還有﹑"},{"start":5748.39,"end":5770.507,"text":"第五條、第一項、第十四款不動產相關有價證券只經主管機關核定準予以投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品為持有基礎設施或公共建設投資所設立之公司所發行或交付之有價證券或其他不動產及基礎設施相關之有價證券"},{"start":5773.717,"end":5793.872,"text":"第49條之三不動產投資信託基金投資與開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利者已依不動產興建計劃及財務計劃建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用或利用之約定並可預期興建完成之不動產據受益者為限"},{"start":5797.383,"end":5814.815,"text":"第49條之五第一項不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務得依不動產投資信託契約之約定指示基金保管機構於一定比例內以基金專戶名義向金融機構辦理借款並對外公告"},{"start":5815.535,"end":5829.805,"text":"或以持有標的之特殊目的工具辦理借款但借款之目的以不動產或不動產相關權利之取得、開發、營運或以分配受益所必需或其他經主管機關同意者為限"},{"start":5832.796,"end":5848.264,"text":"第49條之十四不動產投資信託基金投資所得之收益應至少每年分配一次並應於不動產投資信託契約內明定分配日期前項收益不計入不動產投資信託事業之盈利事業所得"},{"start":5849.324,"end":5873.85,"text":"於依前項規定分配時為受益人之所得按利息所得課稅第一項受益分配時應以不動產投資信託事業為扣繳義務人依所得稅法規定扣繳稅款受益人為個人者於本條文生效日起算十年內並計其綜合所得總額受益人為盈利事業者於本條文生效日起算五年內"},{"start":5874.861,"end":5895.399,"text":"一、10%之扣繳率、扣繳稅款分離課稅並計其分配年度營利事業所得額。宣讀完畢。好,那我們休息到10點20分開始進行協商。我們現在開始休息。"},{"start":6597.076,"end":6606.063,"text":"好,我們開始寫商話我們先從這個《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案》開始"},{"start":6611.64,"end":6627.237,"text":"法案名稱的部分我們《證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問法》這個條文基本上行政院的提案跟本會委員郭國文以及提案委員林楚茵都一樣這個部分有意見來請"},{"start":6633.513,"end":6639.357,"text":"對於這個REITs的發展方向今天這個法如果通過的話預估市場的這一塊的動能大概有多少"},{"start":6664.454,"end":6689.015,"text":"不可諱言,不動產的部分裡面包括也很多很多的項目你們以後就是商辦的部分或是工業區的部分或者是在同一個縣市裡面可是座落在不同的地方這些都可以把它摳在一起變成一個綠子髮型的標的嗎是不是可以請主委說明一下,謝謝那我們請黃主委"},{"start":6690.576,"end":6706.943,"text":"我想早期因為不動產政治化條例那當時是在銀行信託的機制之下那這十幾年、二十年來差不多目前剩下六檔左右那中間有很多就清算了"},{"start":6708.164,"end":6726.28,"text":"我們觀察這個案子其實應該是2017、18的時候開始委外研究那考察大概其他鄰近國家日本、新加坡等等、香港覺得這個機制上可能要用基金型的會更活潑所以我們開始展開修法一直到今天謝謝趙委今天召開這個會議"},{"start":6727.961,"end":6748.854,"text":"市場估計政局有去考量但因為這個會期如果能夠通過還要修執法業者還要成立相關的人才跟募集機制建立可能要到明年才可能開始要募集我們有初步去徵求業者的意見是不是請局長跟各位報告"},{"start":6749.594,"end":6764.487,"text":"那請局長那請問像督根的案子或者是危老這些案子以後都可以納入律職範圍嗎?也一併說明謝謝基本上它的建造要變成不可以是助用的"},{"start":6767.148,"end":6767.968,"text":"財政委員林楚茵等17人擬具"},{"start":6792.765,"end":6814.295,"text":"你的邏輯理論是對,但是你顯然不了解建築的實務啦。你就算商用不動產你去督更,現在都市更新它有實施者,那實施者是必須要去向政府機關申請許可,就是地方的建造,合法機關是地方的縣市政府嘛。"},{"start":6815.12,"end":6842.838,"text":"那你用律師這樣子的不動產證券的話他的實施者要寫誰這個恐怕會引起爭議因為現在他就是要明定他現在都更條例都是要明定實施者那實施者是誰、出資多少這個都要明定因為這個會涉及到整個都更未來的融資等各個事項所以就律師的邏輯理論上當然是可行問題在實務上顯然馬上要到達可行一步"},{"start":6843.638,"end":6843.978,"text":"我請組長說明一下"},{"start":6854.95,"end":6882.131,"text":"我這邊補充一下我們這邊判斷的基準主要就是說看這個不動產本身是不是具有穩定的收入嘛如果具有穩定的收入那就符合核心原則就是可以投75%那如果不具有穩定的收入如果這個他可能還在開發階段還不具有穩定的收入那就是可能就會是有設一定的比例的上限所以原則上就是看這個的判斷基準去看說他可以投資的比例啦對"},{"start":6885.051,"end":6910.408,"text":"好,那我們那個預期的效益呢那個剛剛羅委員有在提預期的效益這部分我先補充一下是,委員長預期的效益我們現在已經我們已經對業者做發文件確認出來大概估計3年內就會有將近450億元那5年內會有1000億這個是業者目前所估計的數字但是只限於經營的這個投信業來將來經營不動產的部分"},{"start":6913.73,"end":6937.289,"text":"當然如果有專業的產生,我們就要看來申請的人是誰,那個之後沒辦法問得到這3年到5年內,451到1000億各位委員還沒有請到,陳議員請有請教一下,不動產這個範圍不動產,剛剛大家不是有在問嗎?那像比如說包括,像比如說以我們今天來講,地區要做這種長照建設、公共建設方面這一類是不是也可以納入?醫療、長照、物流"},{"start":6942.393,"end":6966.961,"text":"就是回到剛剛所提的嘛,就是不動產,如果他是不動產的定義,付回不動產的定義,然後他又有一些穩定的收入,那當然就是可以投資超過75%以上那如果他是不動產,但是他還沒有產生穩定的收入的話,那可能是開發階段的,然後就是有一定的比例上限,那的確國外也有一些是長照機構的,也是有"},{"start":6967.461,"end":6985.346,"text":"所以只要它是符合不動產的定義這個長照機構是有取得這個不動產的這個你說當它變成了不動產以後它才可以投是這樣子嗎?對,它必須要先符合不動產的定義比如說今天比如說我們地區想做一個長照機構然後你說必須它蓋成了、變成了不動產以後"},{"start":6990.976,"end":7008.245,"text":"才可以做這樣的這個對,可以啊國外也是這樣他就是會去就是去去買一個長照機構這樣子去因為有一個經營它然後有一個穩定的收益再把它弄成REIT去所以是支持我們剛說的這個綠燃設備啊什麼這些算嗎"},{"start":7015.205,"end":7019.288,"text":"我們上面條文裡頭有不動產的定義,待會會討論到我們在第五條會討論到,來請王煌威委員請"},{"start":7025.016,"end":7049.606,"text":"只限於第5條嗎?沒有,最主要,主要還沒到,我們剛開始討論文件而已。好,那我先提一下,因為剛才我們議政委員所講到就是說如果地方有一些別說一些長照的建設或綠能建設那我有提修正動議是在第49條之3因為原來條文是經中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設"},{"start":7050.626,"end":7070.178,"text":"我把它擴充為包含直轄市及縣市政府核准的所以這也使得並不是只限於中央主管機關核准那也讓地方政府他們核准的相關的這些只要符合的話那麼這個投資的標的也可以涵蓋在內我就做以上的說明"},{"start":7070.578,"end":7096.616,"text":"好,待會49條之三的時候我們再進行討論好不好其他的委員對這個函案名稱有沒有什麼意見因為沒有意見那我們就照這個行政院版本通過接下來,來第一條第一條大家有沒有什麼意見這版本都一樣委員的版本跟行政院版本都一樣好,沒有意見那我們第一條就照行政院版本通過提案通過來第二條"},{"start":7098.749,"end":7125.383,"text":"第二條委員的版本跟行政院版本也都一樣那我們就照行政院版本通過來第三條之一這個部分呢行政院版本跟委員主要提案的版本內容一樣有提修正動議三之一他剛剛送來"},{"start":7128.96,"end":7147.787,"text":"這一條我們先跳過好不好,我們先跳過待會再回來先保留來來來,第三那個陳俊貞委員的修正動議來來來來好請請陳俊貞委員先"},{"start":7156.437,"end":7178.743,"text":"先讀條文針對第三條之一我讀下了一個公共建設以前公共建設是沒有的"},{"start":7185.58,"end":7191.986,"text":"第三條之一第一項"},{"start":7212.802,"end":7223.855,"text":"後當修正及公共建設不動產及公共建設相關權利不動產及公共建設相關有價證券等。請以行政院提案同。第五條"},{"start":7227.857,"end":7232.599,"text":"請金管會說明一下針對委員所提第三條之一增加公共建設的部分"},{"start":7247.148,"end":7275.187,"text":"第一條之一就是我們這個不動產我們不動產投資信託因為我們這個主要就是不動產嘛那針對不動產的定義其實就是說如果這個公共建設是符合不動產的定義的話其實就是可以涵蓋在我們所謂的不動產裡面了所以我們是覺得說我們本來的這個不動產投資信託的範圍已經可以涵蓋這個公共建設就是剛剛所提到的"},{"start":7275.627,"end":7304.89,"text":"就是公共建設如果符合不動產的定義其實就是框在這裡面了所以我們是參考國外的規定啊因為國外的這個REIT的規定也不會特別去針對公共建設取一個名稱就是直接就是寫我們這個這個名稱其實是符合國際上一致的名稱的啦所以我們是比較建議說還是參考參照我們行政院版本就是寫不動產投資信託那只要這個公共建設符合不動產的定義裡面自然就會框在這個不動產投資信託的架構裡"},{"start":7305.51,"end":7305.91,"text":"羅賓財委員羅賓財委員羅賓財委員"},{"start":7317.639,"end":7344.84,"text":"所以很多人都提到說其實地方一些公共建設剛剛有人提到長照其實面對未來這個是很需要的特別放進去的原因是很多業者他都是挑售減肥就好的東西才弄弄才上那可是這樣如果長期的發展就是變成這個長照或是社會真正有需要的這些其他的這個項目"},{"start":7346.201,"end":7373.989,"text":"全都沒有含在裡面過去也是這樣,你十幾黨裡面有哪一黨有公共建設的吳秉偉先,他第一次發言針對這個條文我們今天是准許這個證券從信託型這不通常證券的話從信託型再加上一個基金型兩型並行可是無論信託型或是基金型都要有機構願意發行REIT"},{"start":7376.328,"end":7392.423,"text":"過去只有17黨就是沒有機構願意發行所以現在增加了基金這個跟你有沒有加公共建設沒有關係而且你這樣弄在法邏輯上會有一個缺陷就是說萬一有一個公共建設它不是不動產的"},{"start":7393.644,"end":7417.707,"text":"我現在當然還沒有馬上沒有想到那你現在是用從事不動產及公共建設那一個不是不動產的公共建設可不可以來發行睿辭就變成有邏輯上的問題相互抵觸對,會有邏輯上的問題因為它是架構是在不動產證券化所以是在不動產底下你現在如果不動產及公共建設這是M的嘛及就是M的嘛"},{"start":7418.348,"end":7443.744,"text":"那這個公文件說萬一不是完全是不動產的時候那如果依照你這個法律你可以發行隨時齁那剛剛羅委員在講的說發行的機構少那是因為以前的那個門縫不大不好賺所以沒有那些發行機構願意來發行嘛那現在就是為了要讓這個商機能夠打開說我們把信託型再加上基金型"},{"start":7446.346,"end":7466.217,"text":"這個邏輯是清楚的所以我覺得在法邏輯上面你把它加上及公共建設反而是範圍有可能會擋不歪去阿剛剛主管機關已經講清楚說只要是不動產無論是不是公共建設有人願意發行都可以"},{"start":7466.917,"end":7477.472,"text":"那我覺得如果是擔心說公共建設不能被包括在裡面是不是把公共建設那個放在立法裡有說明就好不要放在法律的本輪這是我的建議啦 主席"},{"start":7482.595,"end":7498.955,"text":"說得很好不過我是覺得是這樣子就是這個我們今天這個法令叫做《證券投資信託及顧問法》法案名稱當然加了不動產是指說本意是就是說就是在加不動產的這個部分但是我們覺得這個整個這個"},{"start":7501.277,"end":7522.584,"text":"國內這個投資環境來講像我們一直在說這個我們希望跟流台灣嘛然後把錢都留在我們中華民國台北京馬裡面那事實上現在比如說我是講實務面來講當然你們剛剛說齁這個不動產裡頭已經有包含什麼公共建設裡頭但是這是不違背的我說不違背是AND事實上也是可以的"},{"start":7522.864,"end":7549.496,"text":"是一個更進步的修法就是說我們現在國內的公共建設比如我一直以我們離島地區來講齁我們離島地區的很多公共建設齁如果政府、中央政府不給我們預算我們基本上很難以為繼那如果我們要招商引資很多商家因為這個也不一定願意來啦比較偏遠嘛投包率可能也沒那麼好但如果我們在這個裡頭齁增加這些公共建設把它寫在裡齁明文化的話我想對"},{"start":7550.416,"end":7550.636,"text":"並沒有衝突。」"},{"start":7568.369,"end":7593.115,"text":"羅委員謝謝其實可不可以把公共建設放進去在第49條之3的第一項、第二項、第三項中間的第二款裡面這個就寫得很清楚了促進民間參與公共建設法所定公共建設其實這裡面就寫進去了"},{"start":7595.111,"end":7596.912,"text":"其他條文就有了,其實包括第5條、第49條都有了"},{"start":7602.419,"end":7631.759,"text":"一開始寫得更清楚沒有違背我們整個法的意旨剛剛有一些委員建議說在這個立法說明的時候來做補充也可以立法說明不是不好也是一件好事我以前修別的法也曾經在立法上但是如果我們在條文裡面說得更清楚對於鼓勵這個業者到偏遠地區來投資的話他看得更明確我們要去地區的政府要去招商要請業者來投資的話會幫助更大那要請吳平安委再補充說明一下好了"},{"start":7633.94,"end":7640.003,"text":"我覺得我們討論的問題大家講的都有道理但是沒有在同一個平面上我們的問題沒有針對啦"},{"start":7642.391,"end":7664.58,"text":"金門、馬祖或其他地方需要公共建設的投資這個我們非常贊成但是問題是現在我們是要把不動產證券化簡單講這個名稱雖然叫這樣但其實就是不動產證券化那不動產的證券化以前就是信託型那信託型因為信託管理機關等等很多的麻煩使得人家不願意發行"},{"start":7665.72,"end":7691.38,"text":"所以現在他增加基金寫可是你如果這個寫法因為這個法律的法理的文藝從事於不動產及公共建設我舉個例子你剛剛講到好我們現在退一半步講一個實例金門縣政府開辦一個長照機構那算不算公共建設他的建築物、他的房屋、他的病床可能可以算可是他的管理軟體、他的這個醫生、他的護理師"},{"start":7693.628,"end":7719.588,"text":"這個軟體部分就不是不動產的範圍喔那你把公共建設如果你用這個公共建設你是不是把金門縣政府開辦的這個長照機構要納到不動產證據化的律師裡面來這個邏輯上面是矛盾的啦如果你今天是金門要蓋一個大金門到小金門你要蓋一條高速公路那中要收過路費那全部都是硬體建築"},{"start":7720.549,"end":7743.629,"text":"可能你這樣立還可以可是如果你沒有辦法這樣區分一支從事於不動產及公共建設意思是說不動產只要是公共建設是不動產我都要包在這裡面我是覺得這個在法用語的文藝上面這樣子反而是跟原來的條文的原意不是很符合反而你是應該在"},{"start":7745.922,"end":7760.09,"text":"判應該要在這個立法理由裡面說明說不動產的公共建設也是包括在這裡面這樣的話接受你如果從事於不動產"},{"start":7761.69,"end":7778.411,"text":"及不動產的公共建設但是如果你只有及公共建設那我覺得那會出問題啊那我覺得吳秉立委員我可以說嗎那個王委員跟林委員剛剛都有舉手請他們發言完好不好那個王委員你現在要不要再發言沒有了嗎沒有那就請林委員來請"},{"start":7779.947,"end":7795.986,"text":"我其實可以理解就是議政委員他的善意是要往一個更聚焦但是就是我呼應就是吳平蔚委員的說法就是因為瑞慈是指不動產的這個部分的時候但是公共建設會有硬體跟軟體相關的所以"},{"start":7796.727,"end":7816.137,"text":"是不是就是由林民財委員所說的其實49條裡面有涵蓋了那我們就讓他的大前提當中是鎖定Focus在不動產但是因為其實49條裡面有包含在立法說明上面這樣才不會到時候變成是未來出現爭議的時候他要去解釋疑議"},{"start":7816.857,"end":7844.286,"text":"到底所謂的公共建設當中然後是不是跟這個法又不一樣那我認為在立法上面會有一些造成施政上面的反而把公共建設寫進來會開了一個很奇怪的門也可能是限縮也可能是未來產生執行上面的異議所以我還是比較建議希望能夠以這個所謂不動產這樣的原文就是行政院的這樣的版本來做進行"},{"start":7845.933,"end":7852.903,"text":"好 那個 我們其他委員還有沒有其他意見來 那請王委員請 王國文委員"},{"start":7855.421,"end":7882.071,"text":"陳玉娟委員請我覺得吳秉瑞委員說的很好的確那就是像我們這個這個證券投資信託這些業者這個您剛說硬體沒有問題嘛那就是軟體嘛對對我知道我知道我覺得這件事所以我們的我事實上想的是其實包括軟體也應該看在哪個部分還是怎麼樣修正讓我們這個部分可以更先進我也是支持這個看法就是說不是只有硬體可以投後面還有其他條文"},{"start":7884.373,"end":7907.01,"text":"把這個想法納進來啦,就是您剛剛提的包括硬體比如說醫院啦包括什麼這些設備啊什麼這些當然應該整個來講也是要可以的公共監視事實上不是只有包括硬體嘛所以我們怎麼來寫進來啦我寫進來不僅是說讓業者如果要投的時候比較一目了然因為寫在立法院說他不清楚要怎麼來改我可以同意啦"},{"start":7907.29,"end":7934.782,"text":"我再補充說明一下大家今天在立這個法我們今天要先了解它最上位它是一個不動產證券的投資這個投資的目的是為了要盈利那你如果依照衛福部現在的衛生醫療法有一些我們的長照機構或是我們的醫療院所它必須是財短法的而且它的目標必須是公益性它不是以盈利為目的的"},{"start":7935.851,"end":7958.932,"text":"在這個中間的漢格的時候你要怎麼處理我舉個例子長庚醫院很賺錢啊但是長庚醫院在法性質上他是財團法人他是以公益為目標不是以盈利為目標啊那長庚醫院能夠舉個例子長庚醫院拿來律師嗎我們要把財團法人把公益的不是以盈利目的的東西"},{"start":7960.219,"end":7961.62,"text":"提供證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文"},{"start":7981.536,"end":8008.036,"text":"那個叫什麼法?服貿為什麼很多地方談不定就是因為中國的醫療機構他是可以以盈利為目的台灣的醫療機構跟台灣的社福機構絕對是要以這個公益為目的不能夠以盈利為目的所以那個時候的性質就是產生我們在談服貿的時候有非常大的困難跟中間一個很大的gap那我今天也是談一個這個問題"},{"start":8009.537,"end":8032.219,"text":"我們不要幻想一個不動產證券化就把所有的事情包山包海都進來了這個不動產證券化它是目的是為了要投資欸投資的目的是要盈利要賺錢所以剛剛組長才會講說那個如果已經還在投資階段不能夠有一個限制的額度就是擔心投資人投資進去之後結果後來做完了這個東西不賺錢"},{"start":8034.223,"end":8062.076,"text":"投資人會覺得說我被陷在這個所謂的這個投資的坑裡面所以我是覺得大家的我建議啦大家要想不是把你說的問題在這個法律裡面解決這個法律是要處理不動產證券的話是要讓台灣增加投資的管道讓大眾可以賺錢啦所以他的目的是要賺錢而不是去解決你的這一些你這所有的建設的問題好我們都明天有緣氣"},{"start":8064.157,"end":8081.746,"text":"好 謝謝投資有風險投資者都要注意我請問一下組長剛剛那個例子長庚醫院是很穩定發展的長庚醫院就他院區的部分出租給醫院就這樣一項請問這項可不可以納到例子裡面的範圍可以用麥克風"},{"start":8088.291,"end":8115.848,"text":"不動產的定義嘛我們就是說我們投資的是不動產不動產相關權利那在我們的第5條就有去定義什麼是不動產那這邊應該條文有第5條的第12款有去定義不動產的定義就是要指土地建築改良物道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭停車場或其他具有經濟價值的"},{"start":8117.429,"end":8132.509,"text":"土地定著物跟它所依附的設施並以該設施跟土地跟它的定著物分離及無法當獨篆造價值土地跟它的定著物的價值亦因而減損者為限。」就是我們針對這個土地有去"},{"start":8133.35,"end":8162.178,"text":"這個不動產有去定義那因為我們這個核心還是說這個是把這個不動產證券化就是把這個活絡這個不動產讓一般的小額投資人可以透過這種方式去參與說他可能沒有辦法當他可能一個小額投資人沒有辦法買不動產去出租嘛沒有辦法當房東那這個的方式只是說聚集一群小額投資的人的錢大家共同去買一個房子"},{"start":8162.638,"end":8182.265,"text":"然後讓他出租產生固定的收益讓小額投資人也有機會去當房東其實是這個概念你沒有回答我委員的問題講那麼多他問題很簡單那個可不可以列入他剛剛的問題很具體啊沒有你沒有回答沒有就是如果他沒有買不動產的話就你說的是可以還不行就是要有不動產要有買不動產"},{"start":8184.298,"end":8207.444,"text":"他現在是先假設長庚醫院這個財團法人跟長庚醫院這個硬體建築物切開然後長庚醫院這個財團法人把長庚醫院這個建築物租給別人來收租金的時候那這個醫院本身能不能拿來REACH啦但是我覺得你這個問題"},{"start":8209.424,"end":8228.594,"text":"對,我知道,只有不動產的問題原則上是可以,問題是長科醫院他如果只有把建築物割出來他這個醫療機構就沒有辦法因為裡面必須要有醫療機構這個醫院才有辦法彰顯他的價值嘛你如果光只有出租醫院那就變成租賃業"},{"start":8229.986,"end":8249.116,"text":"就不是一個醫院。」我可以這樣解釋,那如果有一天藏根醫院要廢掉了我醫院不要開了,就剩下這個建築物我要把它綠此,我要把它那個就只有光這個建築物我讓回當然是可以的啦!羅委員、王委員、陳委員好不好?我剛剛那個問題你還是沒回答"},{"start":8251.937,"end":8262.245,"text":"就是長庚醫院他這個醫院在做他的本身建物的部分是有固定的租金請問他的這個項目可不可以放到日子裡面"},{"start":8265.393,"end":8269.594,"text":"這可能不是只有涉及我們這個投信投顧法的規定可能還有那個相關的其他的法"},{"start":8291.3,"end":8291.54,"text":"王委員講一下"},{"start":8308.052,"end":8333.072,"text":"我必須講其實在這個法裡面其實相關的定義算是蠻清楚的我來回應一下剛才郁真所講的郁真希望把這個REITs能夠擴及到相關的公共建設那剛剛回到講第五條第五條對於本法的其他用詞都有很明確的定義那這裡面其實不動產就是它的標的物就是不動產自己本身還有它所產生的權利我講的對不對?好"},{"start":8335.154,"end":8356.59,"text":"好,那這個定義確定了那剛才,來玉珍,玉珍你要聽一下你關心的公共建設,別說在地方特別是長照那你可以看到第5條有關於公共建設的部分第13款,公共建設指哪些建設呢?在下面嘟嘟嘟嘟嘟,大家可以看到"},{"start":8358.083,"end":8361.824,"text":"在行政院版本在第12項行政院版本裡面第12項"},{"start":8378.062,"end":8389.445,"text":"所以你們這裡面確實沒有公共建設的部分,是不是?第二十三頁是不是?我要講的就是說,其實我們針對公共建設裡面的不動產以及它所產生的權利是可以的。"},{"start":8405.328,"end":8415.498,"text":"你們在原來的條文裡面並沒有針對公共建設的這個項目有規定嗎?對不對?第12款軌道、碼頭、停車場、巨海等所以你們就會變得比較局限,是不是?"},{"start":8427.807,"end":8429.388,"text":"第49條之三,你們事上是有涵蓋公共建設,對不對?"},{"start":8451.187,"end":8479.236,"text":"但你們其實並沒有對像那個御政委員所提案的他的修正動議把公共建設項目講得比較清楚好那如果我們回到第49條之3你們所謂的公共建設比如你們這邊有很清楚啊就是這個投資於開放型不動產或不動產相關權利以下列各款標的為限其中呢那個第二款就是促進民間參與公共建設法所定的公共建設"},{"start":8480.336,"end":8502.852,"text":"所以只要是這個促參條例裡面促參建設法裡面所講的公共建設通通涵蓋是不是所以我們的意思就是說這個不動產如果這個公共建設符合不動產的定義就會通通可以嘛所以剛才羅明財委員所講的"},{"start":8506.815,"end":8527.598,"text":"不管它是醫院、它是長照、或者它是觀光遊器、或者它是影視音,因為公共接觸也包含影視音喔那當然比如影視音裡面它是那種影片什麼那當然不行,是不是?但是它如果比如說它有一些只要是不動產的標的物跟不動產所產生的權利,就是在你們所這個容許的範圍之內,是不是?"},{"start":8531.65,"end":8545.995,"text":"法條第五條所說的不動產跟不動產相關權利的定義的話沒有,其實我要講郁真委員她比較在意的是公共建設裡面所產生的不動產跟不動產利益、不動產權利"},{"start":8547.595,"end":8567.419,"text":"是不是都可以涵蓋在裡面?只要符合你們促進民間參與公共建設法裡面的公共建設,因為公共建設也有一個定義嘛還有另外就是你們這邊講的是直轄市所,不對中央政府中央目的事業主管機關核准的公共建設都涵蓋在內是不是?"},{"start":8570.856,"end":8597.991,"text":"若是的話……不是,他現在是這樣子,剛剛劉明財委員所提的問題,像吳秉瑞委員就認為是不行,剛開始認為不行,你認為你還沒有肯定回答是或不行,可否行或不行,我發現在我遇到所謂有關金管會的澄清中,最大的問題就是你們對於很多事情的定義常常都不怎麼清楚,在法條內不清楚,所以造成很多人去問的時候都得到可能不一樣的答案或是不知道、無所適從,"},{"start":8598.911,"end":8626.344,"text":"這是現行這個業界在對金管會這個很多事情來講最困難的地方因為定義起來你們也比較辛苦那我們要避免你們以後這個執行法令這麼辛苦我們把很多法令定的明確一點以後比較不會無所適從如果大家都覺得這是可以的我們就把它規定進來讓你們以後比較慶祝不要說這個可以這個不行這個可以不行你們還要考慮很久隨著時空變化還是怎麼樣這樣造成你們可能在執行法令也痛苦"},{"start":8626.824,"end":8642.121,"text":"所以我們在訂法院有當然盡量讓他明確化嘛這樣對公務人員也是一件好事啊那陳委員關心的公務建設的部分其實在第5條的部分第49條之3的部分都有寫到我知道我知道我有修正我有提修正所以你們是說到那時間修正你們沒有意見就對了"},{"start":8642.762,"end":8668.037,"text":"沒有,不是,待會再還有一個再討論,我們每一條不同的條文還有就進行討論,好不好?是是是,我知道 它是內涵語,剛剛就是強調說那個公正性已經內涵語了沒關係,我這一條我可以接受像吳秉樂委員所說的嘛我們把它寫在立法說明裡頭,但是後面有名氣的我們就要列出來啦好,謝謝陳委員,那我們第三條的這一個條文就照行政院版通過然後立法說明當中做一個補充說明,對,補充說明,好不好,謝謝"},{"start":8670.685,"end":8695.8,"text":"主席,我補充一下,因為剛我擠手,你一直都不叫我我在講說第三條之第一款的那個就是已經明文就是把它排除住宅法了那可是第二款的社會住宅你沒有排除掉那到底公共建設的不動產裡頭有沒有涵蓋社會住宅這個是我的一個問題"},{"start":8698.61,"end":8714.595,"text":"請局長、組長說明一下是請說明是指49之3是不是我們49之沒有49之3待會我們討論到不是現在第三條之一我現在講的是第三條之一"},{"start":8717.185,"end":8722.731,"text":"第五條修正公寓第五條第一項"},{"start":8735.851,"end":8763.07,"text":"第13款公共建設及下落建設及服務一、公共建設及共同管道二、環境污染防治設施三、污水下水道、自來水及水利設施四、衛生福利及醫療設施五、社會及勞工福利設施六、文教及影視音設施七、觀光油氣設施八、電業、綠能設施及公用氣體燃料設施九、運動設施十、公營綠地設施十一、工業、商業及科技設施十二、新市政開發十三、"},{"start":8764.411,"end":8786.087,"text":"農業及資源循環再利用設施、十四政府聽測設施、十五數位建設第十四款不當產及公共建設相關權利指地上其他經專案目的事業主管機關核定之權利其他不當產及公共建設相關之權利及為持有不當產及公共建設投資所設立之公司所發行或交入之權利第十五款不當產及公共建設相關有"},{"start":8787.108,"end":8815.222,"text":"有價證券此經主管機關核定準與投資之不動產及公用建設證券化商品、金融資產證券化商品及一位持有不動產及公用建設投資所設立之公司所發行或交付之有價證券或其他公用建設相關之有價證券第16款至第21款均為款次調整第二項第一具修正為前項第18款鎖定安排機構區均同行政院提案宣布完畢"},{"start":8821.22,"end":8824.702,"text":"行政院版本的第5條的部分"},{"start":8860.097,"end":8876.584,"text":"這邊有賴委員的提案還有陳委員的提案還有陳一貞委員的提案還有郭委員還有吳立華委員的提案先從行政院板我們就由上而下的部方來處理"},{"start":8879.605,"end":8906.24,"text":"有關於這個部分這個本法其他用詞定義如下第一項的部分有沒有什麼意見看起來都沒有意見沒有意見那我們第一項就主要是第12款嘛在正義主要是第12款"},{"start":8908.325,"end":8933.259,"text":"現場我們有提修正動議的部分是賴委員、陳一貞委員、吳一貞委員、吳立法委員賴委員的修正動議在哪裡?可以給我嗎?在裡頭嗎?有發嗎?修4我沒有收到賴委員的修4是第一條"},{"start":8936.464,"end":8941.169,"text":"第4條有一個修一是什麼?郭國文你提到跳過了嗎?"},{"start":8958.061,"end":8969.515,"text":"對我有提啦,第五條你是第四條還沒討論欸沒有,第五條而已啦,不是第四條沒有第四條,第五條"},{"start":8972.438,"end":8974.059,"text":"喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔"},{"start":8999.879,"end":9002.523,"text":"委員你要不要先說一下你的修正動議內容這樣比較快"},{"start":9006.096,"end":9028.697,"text":"我先說明一下就是第12款不動產定義的部分那我做的修正是增加了說直接把促參法第三條第一項所列之公共建設我是希望說就把它寫進去那為什麼就是因為大家剛才討論都很多啦那大家也都承認"},{"start":9029.498,"end":9045.048,"text":"而這幾年像風力發電、太陽能這些其實都是一種具有收益的再生能源設備當然我們在這個定義的部分是有寫土地的定著物及所依附的設施"},{"start":9046.008,"end":9060.985,"text":"但是我這邊其實還是希望說能夠把它明確化因為到底能不能夠把這些納入成為投資標的其實是有一些疑慮的因為它有時候土地也不是它的"},{"start":9061.545,"end":9083.113,"text":"房子也不是他的然後有可拆卸那等等那包含像潰線這些所以我只是希望說透過把初參法第三條第一項所列之公共建設然後維持上述不動產及設施營運所必要之資產希望把它更清楚化我先做這樣的說明謝謝好謝謝我們請來委員"},{"start":9091.988,"end":9121.176,"text":"OK齁,好,那我們接下來請陳委員我的就是依循了我上面的這個修正東西一樣是更明確化啦,像公共建設我們提到了這麼多對不對我們又增加了像這個交通建設管道啊、環境、污水、消費這些到底算不算,如果不列明細的話不列清楚我的最終的這個上位的思考還是說這些東西就是證券投資業者這些投資可以進入公共設施各式各樣的公共建設以補這個現在我說財政的不足啊"},{"start":9121.976,"end":9140.708,"text":"這是最終的這個思考。所以我覺得明確的定化事實上是一個很正面的事情了。看哪一樣是,你們覺得比較,有沒有哪一個是比較不適合的。因為我想我可以理解今晚會所謂的什麼不動產什麼這一類,大家都是想房子啊什麼這一類的,但是我們修法既然修就一次,避其公義一役啦。"},{"start":9143.108,"end":9165.579,"text":"好 謝謝那我個人版本的部分我12條是按照這個金管會的版本不過金管會第15條的版本不應該把它類型化因為那是一個過程而已所以我建議是15條的部分第15項的部分第15款的部分把它拿掉我的部分是這樣子那我們現在先請那個金管會這邊說明一下好不好針對委員的這個修正案"},{"start":9170.342,"end":9192.783,"text":"關於不動產就是第12款不動產的定義的部分就是說因為剛剛有提到12款的定義已經有去說一些就是土地、道路、橋樑、碼頭等等還有就是其實我們有一個概括還有與其他具有經濟價值的土地定著物跟它所依附的設施"},{"start":9196.105,"end":9208.492,"text":"對,那針對所依附的設施的部分啊怕大家會有疑慮其實我們是會建議說我們會在我們的條文說明欄再把這個所依附的設施再顯明清楚"},{"start":9208.972,"end":9234.25,"text":"就是我們會在我們的條文說明再去序名說不動產的定義是包括所依附於這個不動產的設施那這相關的設施也是屬於這個不動產投資信託基金可以投資的標的之一所以呢我們會去把它寫成是說如果凡是屬於依附在這個土地或土地定著物上面的設施"},{"start":9235.251,"end":9252.64,"text":"而且是屬於維持不動產營域所必需的資產的話那就是這個可以投資的標的我們是到時候我們會再把我們的條文說明欄再針對這個所依附的設施再更序名清楚一點讓外界能夠理解"},{"start":9254.167,"end":9277.753,"text":"我剛所提的你說在說的這個公共建設下面這些說明列舉的這個部分有哪一項是不能接受的嗎?有沒有哪一項是不能接受的?因為就是說坦白講就是立法的技術有時候寫得清楚各有利弊啦那是不是在後面再加一加等嘛 也可以啊因為其實就是我們有一個其他我們本來的條文就已經有列舉很多公共設施例如什麼道路橋樑"},{"start":9278.933,"end":9287.523,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":9298.015,"end":9323.14,"text":"你已經列了這些,那我們再多列這些是不是才比較明確化嘛,到時候有這個相關的這個...還是委員這邊可以讓我們就是說我們把有一些可能...寫在我們的條文說明欄其實它這個不動產的部分的定義齁那個... 那所以我列這些哪一項是你覺得比較不可能準的,或是可能準你要列在哪裡?"},{"start":9324.071,"end":9339.265,"text":"主長你可能要講一下我們跟不動產條例之間的那個一致性可能要補充說明一下雖然是這個沒錯但是這個是修的是證券的這個這是證券投資信託及顧問法條的修正也不是只有說"},{"start":9340.086,"end":9358.665,"text":"因為他是從另外一個軌道而來我知道知道,你們是增加了不動產這個的部分不表示今天提案的裡頭在裡頭不能增略這些東西這是兩件事嗎?對吧?不是,是因為不動產證券化條例已經是20年前已經有一個格式了那他今天只是從信託型變成基金型所以按照投信投顧法"},{"start":9359.165,"end":9377.288,"text":"所以基本上對不動產已經尚未有一個屋頂在那個地方了就是要有現金流量、不動產相關權利就是說下面itemize有哪些東西可以去做其實如果真的要加第一個49-3有的加一些或者說如果大家不放心說明理由中可以稍微再陳述一下"},{"start":9377.688,"end":9399.543,"text":"所以說如果要調列不好意思跟委員報告如果真的要調列15項其實是比較立法技術上是可能會有些顧慮也不會啦因為你49之3也列過了嘛那我們在這邊列得清楚一點那如果擔心不足的話還可以再加一句話嘛另外就是另外一句話不足的再補進來這個也是可以接受的我跟您報告立法院是讓你們不要太辛苦"},{"start":9400.123,"end":9428.231,"text":"不是列上去問題就解決了我們立法行會議到時候執行會清晰那現在有現金流量才行不是列上去就有問題這是你在審核的時候那是另外一件執行的部分我在立法如果越明確你們執行起來就會越輕鬆我們立法就現在多寫幾句話而已但是以後你們執行就不用解釋一大堆這是真的我一直遇到軍管會的困難就在這裡有時候有些寫太多會越爭議啊那你可以再加一句用你們的專業的技術我想這邊也有專業的說到加一句怎麼樣的你們會比較輕鬆"},{"start":9430.992,"end":9434.296,"text":"張局長,麻煩補充說明,要跟陳委員說明一下,他可能..."},{"start":9443.649,"end":9460.317,"text":"我們是覺得這裡主要講原則性的抓抓得很準的話如果你在土地的互作物的那些東西視為一體你前提是有不動產嘛你後面再加什麼不管你要做綠能什麼東西都涵蓋到你就足以的如果列了很多反而會覺得滿點混淆"},{"start":9462.54,"end":9480.778,"text":"不是那個陳委員我們這個定義是跟不動產、證券化條例延伸而來其實原來的這個律史的最母法是這一本我們待會會討論到所以我們是把這個定義搬過來這邊是一致化的是一致性的我現在提的"},{"start":9481.739,"end":9508.52,"text":"因為在不動產政界條例裡面本來就有這樣的條文你剛剛這個羅委員告訴我他走之前告訴我說他提的那些東西很多業者曾經問你們你們都說不行啊所以才會說很多東西最好把它別廢話是不是另外一個原因不行不是不動產這個定義那加進去有什麼有什麼比較不便利的地方嗎?因為你講法治會的標的就開始混了那個那個"},{"start":9511.998,"end":9514.829,"text":"請內政部、財政部、承政部說明一下"},{"start":9516.447,"end":9544.071,"text":"財政部推動初餐司說明因為13款加進去公共建設雖然很明確可是因為我們初餐法的公共建設有可能會修就是現在有15項對不對我們可能未來初餐法它的公共建設類別是會增修的我們是擔心說把它名列進去未來促進民間參與公共建設法"},{"start":9544.411,"end":9546.992,"text":"他本來就可以只要符合那個條件的全部都可以不論他是不是促餐的範圍"},{"start":9571.721,"end":9599.508,"text":"你列了15項說這些可以不能說錯但第16項、第17項、第18項可不可以因為那些也有可能在促成法裡面沒有規定因為它是一個籠統的規定而且這就是不動產證券化它的這個基金型嘛那現在在研究說哪一些要把它變成明確的一款一款然後都要把它加進去"},{"start":9601.84,"end":9630.042,"text":"這不是原來立法的方式立法方式應該是我立一個範圍只要在這個範圍能够涵掛進來的全部都在裡面所以你提的其實本來就都在裡面那是啊你本來就在裡面所以你叫我們來回答說這個我請問我隨便問一下齁比如說我提的這個第13款的這個第8項這個裡頭的電液綠能設施公用汽車這本來就是在裡頭是嗎還不是可以的嗎我解釋一下我幫他解釋一下等一下他再回答他才是執政的"},{"start":9630.282,"end":9652.955,"text":"我知道我在幫他解釋如果有一個業者就這個電液綠能設施及公用氣體燃料設施把他研究結果認為這是不動產而且可以附加利益讓人家可以來不動產證券的話來投資願意幫你發行那經過主管機關審核通過他就可以發行嘛好那現在請主管就回答有數據中心可以嗎"},{"start":9656.523,"end":9673.99,"text":"例如說數據中心就是可以啊因為就是說數據中心就是他很明確有一個不動產然後再次在上面成立一個數據中心那就是回到我們所說的不管反正就是要一個房子就對了嘛對不對是不動產跟他負責務不動產橋樑數位建設可以嗎新市鎮開發可以嗎負責務啊負責務"},{"start":9686.107,"end":9705.613,"text":"那陳委員這個說明還清楚了吧?這樣子齁,如果沒有我們保留一下好嗎?沒關係,反正還可以協商這條保留那我們那個第5條的部分我們就先請保留我們待會回過來再想,接下來我們第6條25月第6條"},{"start":9714.503,"end":9735.616,"text":"提案在委員的版本、行政院版本都一樣那我們就照行政院版本通過有沒有意見?沒有意見?好來第7條第7條也是版本都雷同那我們如果沒有意見我們就照行政院的版本通過好我們第8條"},{"start":9737.321,"end":9761.318,"text":"也是一樣,那個委員跟行政院版本都一樣,我們就照行政院版本通過沒有意見,好,我們通過第二張張名,不動產投資信託基金第二張之一,不動產投資信託基金好,名稱有沒有意見?好,沒有意見我們照行政院版本通過好,第49條之一"},{"start":9763.052,"end":9767.198,"text":"行政院函及行政院函及行政院函及行政院函及行政院函及"},{"start":9780.325,"end":9804.676,"text":"好,沒有意見來,49條之三先讀委員陳一貞等三題修正動議第49條之三,第一項不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用以下列標的為限且除主管金額另有規定外不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款鎖定住宅一、不動產及公共建設二、不動產及公共建設相關權利三、不動產及公共建設相關有價證券第二項"},{"start":9805.896,"end":9832.19,"text":"不動產投資信託基金,投資於開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利者,以依不動產興建計畫及財務計畫建立控管,就預計興建完成之不動產,予有使用或利用之約定,並可預期興建完成之不動產,據受益者為限。第七項,具首增業、供物資等3字,具均衡行政院提案,宣傳筆。"},{"start":9835.991,"end":9847.49,"text":"關於這個部分我們有幾位委員有所提案那王委員是不是要先說明一下"},{"start":9855.201,"end":9872.208,"text":"我在第19條之三在最主要的部分就是要把經中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設把它增加說或直轄市縣市政府核准參與之公共建設"},{"start":9874.946,"end":9900.291,"text":"這部分事實上就是呼應一下剛才陳玉珍委員所講的就是我們希望把我們的這些資金能夠導入在我們公共建設相關的投資那除了這裡面比較明確的就是促進民間參與公共建設法所定之公共建設之外另外呢這個第三"},{"start":9902.032,"end":9926.85,"text":"是獎金中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設我覺得應該把它再擴及到地方政府核准參與的公共建設也應該可以把它納入這點應該沒有什麼疑義吧我請主管機關說明"},{"start":9934.526,"end":9960.093,"text":"這個原則上這次應該是可以參裁的只不過就是因為各委員的版本有很多個那就是目前看起來就是修正動議一就是各委員的版本有把針對這些開發型不動產的定義因為為了保留彈性所以有把它刪除授權執法去訂定所以我們這邊就是目前是"},{"start":9961.253,"end":9979.433,"text":"建議可不可以採說因為其實定在這裡各有利弊啦寫得很明確那像有一些可能因為吐餐法第九條又有一些新的規定可能這裡會來不及修所以變成本來就會有限制到所以我們是建議說是不是授權執法再去"},{"start":9979.873,"end":9990.727,"text":"處長剛剛是對王宏威委員說直轄市政府或是縣市政府核准的公共建設也要放到這裡面來而不是只有中央政府核准的公共建設獨佔針對這一點你們有什麼意見"},{"start":9995.734,"end":10012.352,"text":"我跟黃委員說明一下我的提案當中其實都已經內涵在裡頭了我的修正動議裡頭都已經有包括您的意見已經都放在這裡頭修正一的部分也就是把它把中央政府這個框架都已經把它打破了啦都已經拿掉了"},{"start":10014.259,"end":10040.171,"text":"因為您的那個修正案還沒出來之前我先有版本嘛,我有先跟金管會有先行溝通溝通的部分呢,對,內涵在你地方政府都有把中央的部分都拿掉了是不是照我的版本當中拿...不是,你不用再多列舉啊就是說基本上沒有那個限制啦麻煩各位看一下我的那個49條之3的那個修正動議"},{"start":10044.61,"end":10050.413,"text":"四十九條之三。看一下。那個其實都已經內涵餘了。四十九條之三的部分有沒有。"},{"start":10072.52,"end":10073.14,"text":"吳委員是不是"},{"start":10106.869,"end":10122.687,"text":"但是呢你這邊講第一項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍及限制基金的運用範圍都有主管機關定之所以主管機關又回到中央主管機關囉"},{"start":10125.92,"end":10134.888,"text":"指法也會寫齁沒有那個王委員待會請那個金管會補充說明齁我先讓所有提案委員都講一遍好不好那吳立華委員請"},{"start":10136.752,"end":10161.725,"text":"我這邊49條之三主要是也是為了增加誘因因為目前第二項是規定開發型的瑞慈要領到建造之後才能夠動用基金的款項所以在實務運作上我覺得會有些問題像是有一些地方政府他會要求說要把款項要打到銀行帳戶上才能夠發建造"},{"start":10163.686,"end":10178.558,"text":"會跟這一條互相抵觸所以郭國文委員的版本他是有開放到意向書所以我是很支持但是我覺得有一些情況還是會出現小問題例如說要興建養老村想要自己經營"},{"start":10179.759,"end":10201.394,"text":"就不會有那個潛在陳書的長照機構所以我是多加了幾個字或利用就是說就預計新建完成之不動產已有使用或利用之約定並可預期新建完成之不動產據收益者為限他想說讓實務運作能夠比較順暢"},{"start":10207.263,"end":10226.638,"text":"賴委員還有王世堅委員我們先請賴委員好不好我想這個針對的就是提出的修正動議來做一個補充那就是促參法就是我們知道就是說在111年12月他已經徵定了那個主辦機關他在公共建設的營運期間"},{"start":10227.699,"end":10250.497,"text":"有常取得其公共服務的全部或一部分的有形的PPP的一個模式那這一次草案是針對的開發型的條件那我主張是採取一個沿著限制列那個例外的一個開放的一個模式但是並沒有將全數這個有常形的這個PPP納入那當然我是考慮"},{"start":10251.338,"end":10258.361,"text":"考慮到政府有償取得公共服務案件在營運期間有穩定營業收益提案納入《投信法》規定讓不動產投資信託基金可以投資或應用在政府有償取得公共服務案件"},{"start":10276.63,"end":10278.851,"text":"3案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":10299.179,"end":10303.341,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負�"},{"start":10320.61,"end":10335.548,"text":"提供給投資人來審議所以我是建議就是說增加監察人跟定期召開受益人的一個會議那是不是這樣的一個制度可以保障受益人的一個權益那在針對的就是那個"},{"start":10336.349,"end":10363.107,"text":"我們49條之三明文僅明文就是排除住宅法的第三條第一項的住宅那可是他沒有排除第二款的社會住宅這個也是我所做的一個建議其實基本上就是說我覺得應該要包含社會住宅在這裡面就是說大家知道社會住宅普遍在這個地方在我們當今的一個社會裡頭那他其實是"},{"start":10363.968,"end":10365.549,"text":"等2案：一、繼續審查《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文》等2案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":10380.561,"end":10397.597,"text":"好 謝謝那個代委員那個剛剛那個代委員的部分喔待會請那個金管會一併說明齁那這個這一條有意見的包括王世堅委員還有陳玉珍委員不知道有沒有其他委員齁王宏威委員好我們就13位委員齁來王世堅委員請"},{"start":10399.519,"end":10427.998,"text":"謝謝主席主席我主要都要呼應賴委員剛剛所提的我先簡單講他剛剛提到的就是說我覺得第一點他提到的第一點我們可以參酌公司法也就是公司法有關股東會的規定要求證券投資信託事業每年召開受益人會議這個可以比照公司法這就是剛才賴委員提到的第一條這樣才能有效的保障"},{"start":10428.718,"end":10450.435,"text":"受益人他們的權益好那我回到49條之3齁我首先要針對社會住宅我請問金管會金管會一直對外解釋說不適用社會住宅啦但是我們多數委員都認為社會住宅就是公共建設的一環啊"},{"start":10451.756,"end":10463.679,"text":"所以沒有限制的必要嘛而且49條之3他是限制不得投資住宅法第三條第一款之住宅"},{"start":10464.943,"end":10488.494,"text":"但社會住宅是在這個同樣這個條款的第二款所以文藝上本來就沒受到限制所以我今天請金管委員你解釋清楚到底為什麼啦你們獨排社會住宅第二點也是剛才賴委員有提到的因為這幾年來我們到了這幾年來"},{"start":10491.776,"end":10517.178,"text":"受險業投入公共建設這個資金雪崩式下滑像到去年為止他只投入一百零幾億而已那這個是只佔他可以運用資金的百分之零點零三的天啊那所以我們認為應該修正鼓勵信託鼓勵修正投信來"},{"start":10519.768,"end":10539.342,"text":"發行公共建設的REITs也就是說擴大適用範圍擴大這個適用範圍就是對於有償提供公共建設之促瞻案件哪一些是有償提供公共建設比如說民間他先蓋好營運然後再由政府編列預算來購買的服務"},{"start":10543.16,"end":10552.246,"text":"例如說社會住宅啊社會住宅興建以後未來這弱勢者、臨場者居住付費的部分"},{"start":10553.462,"end":10575.813,"text":"可以部分由政府編列預算來支應那還有長照機構也是啊長照也是可以比照這個概念啦所以某一些是具有急迫性的公共建設可以比照可以透過這個模式來辦理那透過這個模式辦理會比我們政府自己"},{"start":10576.733,"end":10580.843,"text":"而自己來建設還更有效益嘛我們讓民間來參與讓民間來參與那另外就是說"},{"start":10588.413,"end":10608.484,"text":"其實公共建設非自償部分補貼他需要的貸款利息或者營運績效給予補貼有這個必要性而且這個性質跟提供資金取得股份的投資其實不相同沒有道德風險可言"},{"start":10609.665,"end":10629.797,"text":"所以基於以上這幾點我希望這一次49條之3的修正我們能夠更跨出一步而且我希望聽管會你現在就答覆我們為什麼社會住宅硬要被你排除社會住宅本身就是一個重要的公共建設不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":10632.838,"end":10656.345,"text":"謝謝王委員購買公共服務或受益人憑證的頻率稍後一併說明我們把其他委員一起處理王宏偉委員還有陳一貞委員馬上馬上我想請問一下就如果按照那個我們召委所做的第49條之3的這個修正動議的話那之前因為我剛才一直想說服陳一貞委員不要在前面的條文裡面加上公共建設"},{"start":10657.165,"end":10680.214,"text":"可是這一部分因為原來的第49條之三講得非常清楚就剛才大家非常關心的只要符合這個促參法裡面的公共建設都可以涵蓋在內可是這個條文的話就被修掉了所以我覺得可能會對我們幾位委員關心的就是說希望能夠涵蓋公共建設的部分這個部分就沒有明確的規定了這個是我個人覺得這個疑慮"},{"start":10685.056,"end":10689.702,"text":"另外就是說如果說我們的第一項第二項"},{"start":10696.943,"end":10718.559,"text":"第三項就是說有關於這個相關權利以就不動產興建計劃及財務計劃以建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定並可預期興建完成之不動產具收益者為限那我覺得這個部分可能在條文上我覺得太過籠統"},{"start":10720.02,"end":10734.286,"text":"因為這個財務計畫什麼叫做有沒有建立控管還有就是說它是有一個使用約定預期它可以有巨收益但因為我們我覺得這個部分我會感覺上我覺得好像太過籠統沒有說一個很具體的一個相關的這個定義以上"},{"start":10742.669,"end":10754.904,"text":"我比較關心是公共建設的部分啦,謝謝其實原來公共建設是把公共建設的部分的限制把它排除啦,主要由於,我是跟你說明一下而已,待會再說明,那陳玉珍、陳委員我現在請金管會說明總體說明嘛,像說我說的跟這個王思堅委員齁,這個"},{"start":10761.231,"end":10782.518,"text":"邏輯是一樣的,還有剛剛有一項是跟吳亦華委員的提案是一樣的就是說第一個如果說不把這些東西弄很明確的話我們連在這邊討論修法的時候都有這麼多可能有不一樣的見解你們剛剛說的跟後來我們列的可能執行起來都不一樣,如果不列明確的話我想在執行法律上會造成公務機關的困擾"},{"start":10785.34,"end":10789.003,"text":"其中有一項是要取得建造才可以動用該基金的款項我覺得這個規定大幅降低了開發階段良好投資標的參與證券化的誘因"},{"start":10805.274,"end":10820.485,"text":"我的提案是讓令融司跟五六法委一樣,就是該開發者是否已依不動產信件計畫相關的,是不是有可預期的財務回收可完成的這個項目的資金計畫安排作為一個基本的規範,所以修正如上。"},{"start":10821.286,"end":10838.458,"text":"好 謝謝陳秉珍委員我想補充說明一下剛剛王副委員的這個疑慮那麻煩看一下那個本席修正動議頭是那個說明事項的第三我主要是朝放寬的方向進行可以投入公共建設然後為限制開發不動產的這個投資範圍"},{"start":10844.802,"end":10863.324,"text":"只限於都市更新跟危老建設的部分也就是讓公共建設的標的可以增加一些開發中的這個行為然後讓它增加那個可能性把這個標的的可能性放大也就是讓原來那個我們行政院版本相對是比較限縮的然後把它放寬"},{"start":10864.365,"end":10877.489,"text":"主要的部分也是為了公共建設其實本席會提這個也是為了公共建設跟大家的原因都相同我們是請金管會來做一個補充說明做一個整體回答包括剛剛王委員、陳委員、兩位王委員還有賴委員等"},{"start":10879.4,"end":10904.966,"text":"那這邊補充說明一下就是委員這邊關切說到底哪些標的可以作為這個不動產證券化投資信託基金的標的那其實我們的這一條的條文說明就已經寫得很清楚就是只要具有穩定收入的不動產例如什麼數據中心然後醫療保健大樓、公共建設長照服務機構、公共建設、風力發電、太陽能電廠等"},{"start":10907.347,"end":10916.136,"text":"就是我們的條文說明都把這相關的內容寫明清楚了那至於就是說因為我們本來我們49之3的原提案的條文針對這個不動產跟開發階段開發型不動產的定義我們本來是參考不動產證券化條例的規範"},{"start":10927.927,"end":10945.119,"text":"及其中一條是屬於開發型的不動產例如是公共建設、要促參法的公共建設或者是要督根為老的這些都明訂進去。那後來我們也是考量說如果要更有彈性去做一些放寬的話所以我們也是"},{"start":10946.263,"end":10971.612,"text":"後來也是贊成把它調整成是不是就是說我們寫成是一個概括性的一些內容然後授權我們的執法再去明定來根據就是可能一些公共建設可能其他的法令規範可能會不斷的調整然後我們可以在我們的執法裡面去機動的去根據這個狀況去做調整那至於委員剛剛有提到"},{"start":10972.712,"end":10992.265,"text":"有關於社會住宅的部分就是在我們49之三第一項的序文的確是有規定說不可以投資於住宅法第三條第一款的住宅那時候所說的住宅的確是有包括不可以投資社會住宅那時候的原因是為了"},{"start":10993.526,"end":11012.455,"text":"顯示政府打房的決心對那時候主要是這個考量那當時的確也知道說社會住宅的性質跟一般的住宅的確是有不一樣的啦那那時候但是就是我們行政院板還是說先我們要顯示我們打房的決心所以就是先"},{"start":11013.379,"end":11042.429,"text":"直接就是限制只要是住宅法的住宅都是不可以的那至於委員有提到說本來我們的行政院版的第二項說要拿到證照才可以動用這個資金的這個部分我們也認同說委員的建議所以我們後來也是認同這部分可以把它刪除就是把比較細節的規範留待到執法去規定讓這整個法更有彈性就是不要在這裡明定啦因為可能到時候"},{"start":11043.169,"end":11067.914,"text":"可能執法去規定有一些細節的是稍微具有彈性一點但是剛才王世堅委員的那個看法他的疑問跟我的疑問是一樣的我們這個社會住宅並不是住宅法第三條的第一款第三條第一款是就是一般居住住宅但是社會住宅是在第二款裡面所以你們怎麼可以自己擴張解釋呢?是不是?"},{"start":11072.565,"end":11094.64,"text":"主長請補充說明其實那時候我們是有去跟內政部確認過的內政部說明一下這次住宅屬於住宅法第三條第一款鎖定之住宅嗎?內政部代表接內政部麥克風"},{"start":11102.166,"end":11124.943,"text":"報告委員那因為我們那個住宅法第三條的那個用語的定義那我們的住宅是指就是第三條第一款住宅是指供居住使用並具備門牌之合法建築物那我們第二款的社會住宅的定義是只是在把它在特別針對住宅在講說它是指由政府興辦或獎勵民間興辦專供出租之用之住宅"},{"start":11129.807,"end":11131.228,"text":"及其必要附屬設施"},{"start":11160.868,"end":11182.391,"text":"您是說含在裡頭就對了?像經管會這樣組長說的。所以這可見我們在修法過程一定要把很多東西列得更清楚。不過你們內部的解釋跟我們的理解可能都還有點不一樣。我們修法一定要列得更清楚。而且你們這樣的有些規定,像這個什麼已有穩定收入,那影響在這個開發階段的時候就怎麼樣來成立人家可以資金的投入。"},{"start":11183.771,"end":11205.2,"text":"陳委員跟你說明一下因為你如果要用所有都要正面表列免不了都會有瓜一肉萬的那種情況那有些是在執法或者是辦法以頭來做說明會比較妥適一點不然的話我們六法選出可能會很糟這個我是理解但是光這很承認我們的認知跟他心想沒有辦法全部都放在某法當中執行上會很辛苦不要讓執法者這麼辛苦"},{"start":11207.862,"end":11209.484,"text":"財政委員林楚茵等16人擬具:「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":11229.369,"end":11244.417,"text":"那有關於收益人會議的部分因為到時候我們的執法也會去參考現在信託架構REIT的規範因為現在信託架構REIT是每3年開一次那我們的執法會去參考信託架構的REIT"},{"start":11247.246,"end":11259.023,"text":"對,因為有一些規定我們會定在我們的執法我們母法定了之後我們執法我們還會有一個受益人會議的準則然後到時候就會去參考現代的規範再去做進一步的規定"},{"start":11259.96,"end":11277.862,"text":"好,請吳委員第一次發言然後接下來王王委員我提醒一下因為現在是有信託型跟基金型那你信託型原來就是照信託的三年一次基金型應該要比照基金的管理模式比較適當"},{"start":11279.84,"end":11306.746,"text":"包括在發行過程中的公式、公信、揭露等等這些都要詳盡的規範當然沒有辦法在這個文法裡面做這麼詳細的規範但是基金型的那一部分當然就應該是類似基金這樣子類似證券交易這樣的概念是比較接近的所以我是在這邊提醒一下另外可以發行的門檻"},{"start":11308.257,"end":11329.802,"text":"可能要規定一下你不是不是說沒有門檻每一個人怎麼樣的人就可以來發行不是這樣那一定要有一個很完備的這些類似證券交易市場上面這樣子的街市這樣子有一定的條件的人才有資格去發行這個東西所以大家不要"},{"start":11330.442,"end":11331.903,"text":"原來行政院版第49條之三第二項很明確的說不動產"},{"start":11351.289,"end":11374.498,"text":"就是不動產信託基金投資於開發型的不動產或不動產相關權利時如需取得建造者應該與該不動產或不動產相關權利領得建造後使得動用該基金款項這個是有一個等於說有一個保險的措施就是說你必須先取得建造"},{"start":11376.619,"end":11381.081,"text":"我們如果回到剛才我們昭偉所講的這個他的修正動議他的第三項我覺得這個就跟原來我們的第二項是有所抵觸的那當然剛才組長的意思說沒有關係我們未來在執法裡面去做訂定"},{"start":11394.907,"end":11420.162,"text":"可是如果今天改為我們現在的修正動議通過的話那就你又如何再說你在執法裡面再去加說未來你是屬於這種開發型的就是你必須要取得建造者你必須要取得建造之後才能夠去動用該基金這個也是為基金做一個大家做一個就等於說做一個安全措施"},{"start":11421.403,"end":11444.385,"text":"那所以你剛才所講的沒有辦法解除這樣的疑慮因為這個是對未來基金對你們這個行政院本來是有一個很大很大的變動你未來如何在執法裡面再把這個保全措施再把它放進去好謝謝王國文委員待會兒牽扯到本期的提案我再說分明一下那請王世堅委員"},{"start":11447.813,"end":11464.819,"text":"謝謝朝鮮我覺得剛才金管會的解釋跟目前部這個解釋我只能八個字講莫名其妙雞同鴨講啦第一點我請人叫黃天牧主委你來答覆你答覆說到底社會住宅"},{"start":11466.098,"end":11480.357,"text":"是不是應該是公共建設的一環吶這跟打房無關怎麼會把打房扯上第二條剛才這位女士她的回答她說當時是為了配合政府打房的政策好啦"},{"start":11481.238,"end":11495.145,"text":"3案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期�"},{"start":11500.051,"end":11517.211,"text":"那這個本來我們就應該擴大讓這些資金我們引進他可以來參與所以我希望我希望黃主委你來回答這個問題不要再推給下面來回答好不好我跟委員報告"},{"start":11520.208,"end":11549.508,"text":"今天為什麼有交易所、兩個交易所、購買中心、吉寶都要來就是說這個發行把一個有穩定現金流量的不同的不動產集合在一起切割成為小的證券讓一般小額投資人可以投資然後最後到交易市場去交易這中間就是第一個它要有未來商業化有擴力的可能性讓小額投資人可以定期分到這些股利"},{"start":11550.388,"end":11574.362,"text":"第二就是說小額投資人的交易的保護很重要所以不是所有的案子都被期待說他都可以最後變成一個所謂的基金型的不動產證券化的東西他要能夠賺錢然後賺錢至於也要像保護證券投資人一樣要保護投資人所以為什麼我們的證券市場這些主管都來了那回到王偉源的槌尋"},{"start":11575.743,"end":11591.868,"text":"其實我們當初內政部是有提到一些把這下面的資產包括住宅、社會住宅可是我想各位都很清楚現在不論朝野對於穩定房價讓年輕人買到合理的這個房子都是大家的一個期待"},{"start":11592.728,"end":11608.797,"text":"如果說我們今天開了一個資金的來源投資商品來源是可以去買這個所謂的住宅或是社會住宅先不論說住宅、社會住宅是不是一定都可以構成會賺錢的標的這個在社會觀感上好像就覺得我們又領悟了一個"},{"start":11609.677,"end":11610.478,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責"},{"start":11632.374,"end":11654.018,"text":"投入社會住宅反而可以穩定房價社會住宅就是可以幫助房價的東西社會住宅它的租金收入它一定是有社會的討論但是反而是可以穩定房價不是社會住宅的收益是來自於租金的調高你要考慮到這一點那資本過度集中住宅只會讓房價上漲那個請黃宣山委員不好意思第一次發言不好意思"},{"start":11658.78,"end":11679.432,"text":"主委我想這個法條因為看你們的法條是漏漏燈那我贊成郭國文委員他的修正版本就是很多東西授權你執法但是如果剛剛就像大家講的如果要保障所謂建造的部分你的執法裡面會承諾會納入進去的話那我們可能就要支持比較簡略的版本"},{"start":11680.112,"end":11706.08,"text":"對於社宅的部分我同意它是租金是它的收益來源但是我們現在住宅法還有相關的內政會的政策應該是鼓勵多元興建取得社會住宅那多元取得裡面我們甚至還給它減稅免稅所以表示這是我們鼓勵各方不管是公家或者是民間都應該要投入這個市場來做那只是說在這上面你們能不能用"},{"start":11706.86,"end":11727.88,"text":"另外的獎勵措施然後讓他能夠進到律師的機會但是他又可以得到社宅的效果我講可能要去做平衡包括在民眾黨上一任有提出的版本裡面其實有所謂增值稅的減免或者是相關如果他投入這個行列的話我覺得應該是納入你們的參考而不是完全把社宅排除在外"},{"start":11728.32,"end":11728.52,"text":"王世堅委員"},{"start":11741.689,"end":11765.964,"text":"黃主委,你剛剛講的,你說又怕社會住宅它利潤這樣子不夠可是我們就有提說有常提供公共建設是促瞻案件納入啊這些就是說民間先蓋好先營運之後由政府編的預算來購買這些啊那怎麼你一下子又說不夠但是我們說把這些納入嘛"},{"start":11766.98,"end":11768.962,"text":"三案、四案、五案及六條之一條文"},{"start":11788.222,"end":11805.271,"text":"長蝶符這些來分析嘛你這些分析都沒有之下你貿然就說要配合政府打房的政策那就要壓抑社會住宅可是另外一方面各地方政府連我們中央政府都花那麼多力氣找土地、找資金來蓋社會住宅"},{"start":11805.851,"end":11831.991,"text":"而如此不可得之下我們開放REIT來投資這是正確的事所以主委你至少至少你再正面的再回答一下好不好再來你520畢業照之後你是最大的金控公司某案生的董事長欸你也是要面對這個問題啊社會住宅的問題那個黃主委稍等一下請委員講完再說不好意思那請委員"},{"start":11835.253,"end":11842.313,"text":"我想今天是談不動產證券化大家都要用相同的標準如果說"},{"start":11843.769,"end":11867.243,"text":"提到因為社會住宅還是解決居住的問題所以如果租金比較低政府還要補貼那將來還要延伸成你參加REITS然後政府還要補貼REITS我覺得這樣子就已經延伸了太多了我不能夠同意贊成這樣的做法所以說既然今天是這是一個資本市場的大事要把不動產在"},{"start":11869.365,"end":11879.776,"text":"正確化用基金的模式在交易市場上交易是每天都在變動交易的所以他當然要考慮的事情是要很多的那"},{"start":11881.291,"end":11908.952,"text":"我也建議我們的同仁不要再用打房我們是抑制炒房我們是抑制炒房我們是打炒房我們不是在打房那越多的資金投入在居住住宅的興建到底會產生什麼的效果這個不見得大家的意見一致金管會也好這個內政部也好跟我們的看法也不見得一致那當初因為"},{"start":11910.554,"end":11933.868,"text":"這個法案、這個草案其實是第十屆立委最後的一年就已經在談了當初一開始大家的共識當然有一些委員現在已經不在財政委員會有一些委員是新來的當初的共識就是住宅不予納入配合政府議制房價炒作的方式不讓住宅進到RIS這裡面來"},{"start":11935.269,"end":11950.342,"text":"當初這個講法是這樣那當然說你如果說新來的委員堅持說我這個社會住宅一定要放進去那這個是可以討論的事情但是剛剛主委只是把當初從有歷史因素過程中所展現的"},{"start":11952.639,"end":11971.565,"text":"最後我還是要再重複強調一次,REITS的交易就是歸REITS的交易不要再把其他對社會政策上面需要政府給予的補貼或是給予的投資要把它送到REITS裡面來,那這樣太複雜了我以後買一個投資人去買REITS的時候我要考慮說這個政府以後會不會補貼?這個政府以後是不是不補貼?"},{"start":11975.646,"end":11991.654,"text":"我覺得這個就已經超過不動產證券的話我們今天可以討論的範圍這是我的建議 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員我相信大家對社會住宅都非常的關心包括黃山安委員提到社會住宅多元化本席也非常贊同那對資金的來源其實上一次我們在專題報告的時候"},{"start":11993.396,"end":12010.638,"text":"內政部駐都中心還有包括當時的市長都已經強調說接下來要發行債券或者已經有連帶的金額所以他資金的來源一個來說就我的理解其實已經有一定的一個方法了其實不一定要透過這個管道啦我跟大家說明一下至於說王洪瑋剛剛提到有關那個建造的部分"},{"start":12011.098,"end":12036.832,"text":"因為一般如果都跟拿到建造的話其實他就不需要資金了啦我是主要是這樣的所以說有一些相會看起來是保險但是反而是限制的條款我建議把它拿掉的原因是這樣子跟著補充說明那接著我們請那個主委金管會做一個統一的回答謝謝是不是建議這個條文還是依照那個剛郭委員他這邊有收斂的那個修的那個條文修正的條文通過就可以"},{"start":12042.631,"end":12063.296,"text":"這個他的修正動議對你這原條文原行政院版本是有非常非常大的一個修正所以你支持嗎?你同意嗎?建造的部分呢?建造部分在執法上面可以去做處理所以剛才吳委員有關心過有的程序上不能先拿證照那這樣會影響對有的程序不一樣"},{"start":12066.608,"end":12085.163,"text":"因為你如果按照這樣的做法可是你先不是只有都更你還有其他的部分那如果可以沒有建造就可以動用這個基金那請問一下我們對這個投資人的保護措施在哪裡而且你知道都更裡面很多"},{"start":12085.963,"end":12101.671,"text":"建設公司換了又換、換了又換。一個都更案換三、四家建設公司常有的事情啊。那第一家建設公司拿到瑞慈,那第二家建設公司呢?對啊,所以你們這個一放放十萬八千里喔。"},{"start":12104.388,"end":12130.445,"text":"我再補充說明一點點大家把它想像比較接近證券交易今天不是說這樣子就通通可以一股腦都湧進來發行機關那有門檻的嘛你發行機關你對這個個案你要審嘛你將來對這個東西被負責任的我現在舉個例子我某一家證券公司然後我拿了一個垃圾東西然後就來上市來騙騙這個納稅騙這個投資者的錢"},{"start":12133.647,"end":12162.201,"text":"那他不用負責任嗎?所以我是說你不要把他想像說這個法律是定的時候任何阿薩布魯的東西都可以來不是這樣啦你有一個發行的門檻啊有發行機關這些發行機關還是經過經管會審查核可才能有權利來發行欸所以我是覺得那一些東西是可能你考慮的是後段我簡單這樣講如果我今天是發行機關你今天拿一個都更案結果都沒有任何建造"},{"start":12163.168,"end":12163.869,"text":"請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":12188.49,"end":12207.622,"text":"我只補充一句話很多我們可以界定是垃圾是什麼是沒有建造阿尼來的可是社會住宅絕對不是什麼亂七八糟的東西社會住宅是政府首要的住宅政策之一"},{"start":12208.823,"end":12231.326,"text":"所以我希望說能夠把現在既然要REACH要這樣發行我們鼓勵這些資金來參與了必其功於一役把最重要的、社會最關注的一般買不起房屋的絕大多數生斗小民他們的唯一的期望的社會住宅可以擴大、能夠去"},{"start":12232.347,"end":12240.173,"text":"新建,那這個願望能夠引進更多資金來達成。謝謝。那個行政部門有補充說明的嗎?麻煩。"},{"start":12245.226,"end":12266.88,"text":"財政部推動促餐室這邊法研有關社會住宅的一個部分社會住宅已經列入我們促餐法的一個社會福利設施裡面那對照目前行政院的版本的49條這個第三項的第二款裡面也有提到說是促進民間參與公共建設法所定的公共建設"},{"start":12267.941,"end":12288.811,"text":"所以這裏面是……所以購買服務已經可以了,不購買公共服務已經包含在裏頭了嗎?另外有關回應剛剛賴委員跟王世堅委員提到的就是復參法第9條之一就是政府有償購買公共建設服務的部分我們也是同意說加入這個第6項的一個部分"},{"start":12289.811,"end":12299.761,"text":"加入第6項,因為第6項現在只有初三法29條的部分,那麼建議就是再加上一個第9條之一有程序的公共服務建設的部分。"},{"start":12303.819,"end":12322.207,"text":"財政部庭做一個比較完整的說明,大家可以理解了嗎?所以更證明本席所提的49條之3的這個修正我加了一個出主管機關另有規定外然後再把供應鏈寫進來,更重要啦才不會有這些爭論啦我的修正這樣不是更明確嗎?那個主管機關另有規定,這主管機關也有訂定嗎?更明確啊"},{"start":12324.288,"end":12324.588,"text":"財政委員會長"},{"start":12337.867,"end":12366.068,"text":"可以再繼續溝通一下,事緩則遠好尊重各位的意見那我們這一個因為購買公共服務已經都包含在裡頭他已經在跟你說明啊可是大部分的一律我已經處理了大家還是要保留沒有喔"},{"start":12371.008,"end":12387.104,"text":"黃慧媛我再確認一下他剛剛講的意思是說我們大家講的涉責他其實已經在出差裡面也在這個範圍裡面就沒有爭議了嘛所以不用再吵了嘛對啊就可以往前走啦都已經有啦對那另外就是我是覺得如果"},{"start":12387.825,"end":12388.926,"text":"財政部還有要說明的嗎?還是其他委員還有意見嗎?財政部要做..."},{"start":12404.938,"end":12426.103,"text":"最後一個意見啦剛才黃天牧主委的講法就應稱我講的嘛他一開始就是把社會住宅排除在外嘛剛才他的說明也是還好這位小姐他有翻出這些典章規範他是說他的講法等於打臉的黃天牧主委的講法喔那內政部那大家聽清清楚好不好那難道大家開會剛剛講了一場誤會的一場嗎"},{"start":12432.745,"end":12458.561,"text":"就算是互惠今天把話講清楚好不好我動不動講話都要暗喻這個不就證明本來條文一定要列清楚一點嗎如果不列清楚一點大家就會有...我的意思就是這些討論是有意義的有意義有意義有意義有意義真的有意義社會住宅列在裡面不要說什麼互惠一間黃天牧主委當初是否定啊方法的說明也是否定啊我們請財政部蘇貞茲再做一個完整的補充說明"},{"start":12460.07,"end":12478.647,"text":"我可不可以更正一下我的說法因為我們是看到說目前第三項裡面有就是促進民間參與公共建設法所稱的公共建設那想要請問一下說這個到底有沒有抵觸第一項的那個部分可不可以再做相關的一些釐清"},{"start":12480.762,"end":12500.146,"text":"就是第三項第二款的部分是跟目前第一項的部分到底有沒有一些不相同的一個部分這個我們本來就是都是要符合第一項的規定你不要先到那個院板那邊去好不好來來來"},{"start":12507.591,"end":12532.832,"text":"就是要回歸到第49條之三的第一項啦因為第一項的序文已經明定說不能投資住宅法第三條第一項第一款所稱的住宅嘛所以這個是大前提那您剛剛提的是後面幾項所以還是要符合第一項序文那個大前提啦所以那個因為社會住宅也是住宅的一種所以就不能投資這樣子就是不能投資啦"},{"start":12533.593,"end":12541.097,"text":"如果照現在的法律行政變版就是不能投資啊?財政部的認知好像跟金管會的一個看法有所差距我剛剛解釋過當然這裡面有歷史因素有的人那時候不在這個委員會"},{"start":12560.633,"end":12588.541,"text":"當初提出這個草案是在第10屆立委的第4年嘛那因為時間後來沒有充足或是大家還有一些疑慮所以跨了屆、屆期不連續這次又再提出來當初一開始提案的時候執政黨、民進黨的黨團就堅持我們不要讓太多的資金流入住宅的興建為了抑制草房這個目的所以一開始"},{"start":12589.468,"end":12600.355,"text":"他就講不能投資住宅嘛當然商用不動產是商用不動產住宅是住宅就自由界的兩種分類所以草案裡面是沒有社會住宅的"},{"start":12601.689,"end":12619.743,"text":"至於今天立法新來的委員認為非要把社會出來放進來不可那沒有關係那就是跟行政院原來的版本不同嘛那有爭議大家意見不一致那就留待協商這條就保留啊那既然大家意見這麼多我們這條就保留協商接下來"},{"start":12637.913,"end":12638.274,"text":"49條之五"},{"start":12654.96,"end":12675.927,"text":"王侯有修正嗎?來跟大家說明一下這主要是在向金融機構辦理借款的部分那因為大家都知道我們現在這個很多的金控它既有證券也有銀行所以如果我們我再把這個行政院版本裡面就是以基金專戶名義"},{"start":12677.768,"end":12699.377,"text":"向這個金融機構辦理借款前面我加了一個向非利害關係人之金融機構辦理借款也就是說不要變成比如說如果今天是那個比如說元大證券他是那個他是這個基金保管機構然後呢他又向元大銀行去借錢"},{"start":12700.297,"end":12723.655,"text":"這變成都是在同一個集團裡面去做這個融資那所以我在這邊加了一個像非利害關係人之金融機構辦理借款這應該可以吧 對不對因為那麼多銀行啊如果你這是一個很好的基金你應該都可以跟其他銀行也可以借到錢各位委員報告這個我們在銀行法裡面它是有規範的"},{"start":12728.168,"end":12742.722,"text":"在我們《銀行法》的33條就有明文歸問它對利害關係人之間迴避問題所以你這邊再規範的話就等同重複了其他條文已經有所規範了就是了嘛《銀行法》第33條是不是那來請銀行局局長、總局長"},{"start":12744.302,"end":12767.986,"text":"報告委員其實就是利害關係員的借款不是不行是要有一些必須他要拿擔保品、持住擔保品還要經過一定的程序所以這個部分的話如果他要是跟利害關係員借款的時候他就只要就是一切按照銀行法的規範辦理不是禁止就只是要按照銀行法的管理"},{"start":12774.441,"end":12777.023,"text":"三案、四案、五案、六案、七案等"},{"start":12788.198,"end":12816.849,"text":"蠻廣泛的令函巴每一種交易行為受信跟其他交易都有去列舉出來所以這個部分我覺得就是讓銀行局現在的規定去處理就是讓這些有利害關係的交易是透明化而條件為大家所支息這樣就不會有所謂的財務納購的問題我想是不是跟各位委員這樣報告好 謝謝在這邊加一個就是讓他不要向利害關係的人借款可以嗎"},{"start":12820.333,"end":12846.361,"text":"現在的規定是可以啦只是說要有一定的程序還有不得優於其他的這個獸性的對象這樣就可以了所以不洗的話不是就跟現在提我這個加的是比較比較比較嚴格一點就是讓他變成說不要變成通通都是在一個一個同樣一個集團裡面"},{"start":12853.182,"end":12876.629,"text":"在你們那個有什麼摯愛難行的地方嗎?這是跟一般的我們對於關係人教育的體力是不太一樣啦我們不會排除他去跟關係人教育只是要求他一定符合特定的條件而且這個特定條件是相對來講比較高的甚至不能夠因為你是關係人給他特殊的優惠待遇重點在這個地方所以不會有大家關心的這種圖利自己的問題"},{"start":12877.729,"end":12880.59,"text":"所以你認為在銀行法第33條裡面就可以規範?第三條相關的行政命令已經有列舉補充資料給文委員好不好然後我們另外一個委員還有提案吳委員來請"},{"start":12907.03,"end":12925.156,"text":"我這一項是因為看到日本、香港、新加坡這些國家他們都是允許投資信託基金來辦理借款而且可以直接或間接的透過持有不動產的特殊目的工具SPV做借款或發行債券籌資"},{"start":12926.596,"end":12954.403,"text":"所以我才會在第一項這邊就是增加這個或以持有標的之特殊目的工具辦理借款因為經營不動產投資信託業務他所需要的資金很龐大我們是看到這邊只有受益人資金參與怕有所不足所以我就參考不動產證券化條例第19條第一項以及香港、新加坡這些國家的規定"},{"start":12955.103,"end":12980.215,"text":"在這邊定定增加這個文字上那請說明因為我們的投信投顧法的修法草案跟不動產證券化條例的有一點不一樣因為不動產證券化條例它有針對特殊目的公司或特殊目的信託一開始就去定義但是因為我們是基金架構的REITs我們並沒有針對這個特殊目的工具特別去定義"},{"start":12982.597,"end":12999.532,"text":"對,那我們也有觀察到國外的規定因為國外他會成立一個特殊目的工具可能是因為他基金架構本身沒有辦法去持有那個不動產所以他在投資國外標的的時候有可能需要成立一個特殊目的的公司間接去持有那個海外的不動產這種狀況"},{"start":13002.475,"end":13022.989,"text":"如果是這種狀況的話或許需要以那個為借款的標定那我們是建議說將來我們可以在授權的執法的部分去針對這種太陽去定啦因為就是在某法的階段我們這邊都沒有提到一個特殊目的工具這樣會針對我們整個的法治架構反而複雜化"},{"start":13024.79,"end":13052.898,"text":"我怕一般在看這個條文的人不清楚說這個基金架構REIT跟特殊目的工具之間的關聯性那我們是希望說執法的話我們再定的更細節一點這樣子那吳委員他是說你所舉的這個樣態他會在執法當中你投名列,可以嗎?我可以理解那吳委員你要補充嗎?這個另外一點我們法律用語裡面有一個什麼特殊目的工具嗎?"},{"start":13054.244,"end":13057.006,"text":"這條文就按行政院版本通過,謝謝接下來"},{"start":13078.558,"end":13101.167,"text":"第49條之六我們一樣 版本都一樣就按照行政院的版本通過沒有意見 通過之七的部分那基本上這也沒有生意的條款我們就按照行政院版本通過 沒有意見第49條之八各位委員沒有意見 沒有意見那我們就照行政院版本通過"},{"start":13104.118,"end":13125.251,"text":"第49條之九各位有沒有意見、沒有意見就照行政院版本通過第49條之十各位有沒有意見、沒有意見就照行政院版本通過第49條之十一各位沒有意見我們就照行政院版本有修正"},{"start":13133.584,"end":13154.379,"text":"那個是相次啦,相次的部分補充說明,就照郭國文委員的版本通過,修正東西通過十一,現在是十一連動的"},{"start":13158.322,"end":13178.609,"text":"因為聯動條款,那我們這一條49條之11保留協商49條之12各位有沒有意見?沒有意見我們就照行政院版本通過第49條之13有修正動議嗎?請各位稍後宣讀條文"},{"start":13180.205,"end":13198.781,"text":"宣讀修正動議第49條之十三不動產投資信託基金受益憑證其買賣或經不動產投資信託事業依信託契約之約定買回者免徵證券交易稅。宣傳筆。那個條文內容那先"},{"start":13202.147,"end":13220.454,"text":"請提案人說明一下這個10%分離課稅及增交稅免徵應該比照信託型REITs無特定期限這個基金型REITs的合併建議比照與信託型REITs的合併投資標的移轉非屬所得所以這個是包括後面連後面順便跟大家說明包括13、14、15、19這個"},{"start":13224.175,"end":13240.763,"text":"移轉非屬所得稅課稅範圍然後提供機構投資人10%分離課稅優惠增加投資誘因然後有關地價稅部分因為產前已經碎片化地價稅建議用基本稅率而不是用歸戶後的這個累進稅率課徵好那針對陳一貞委員的這一個還是10年嘛對不對這個修正動議齁那請說明金管會"},{"start":13250.12,"end":13268.348,"text":"有關於49之13的部分就是證交稅的部分那委員這邊有徵定說如果約定買回也免徵證交稅那因為買回他並不是買賣買回就會註銷了所以本來就不用課徵那這可能到時候財政部可能問一下財政部"},{"start":13269.712,"end":13285.58,"text":"來,請市長。市長。是,報告委員齁,因為我們通常會講免徵是因為他要課稅,我們才會講免徵。那有一種狀況是他根本不在我稅法規定的課稅範圍。那一般是不用訂單,就像委員講有時候為了明確,我們就會寫非屬課稅範圍。"},{"start":13288.981,"end":13306.239,"text":"根據像剛才經理會特別講就是說因為贖回不叫買賣因為我們證券交易稅條例是只有買賣要課所以你贖回就不是自然就沒有課稅的問題所以是不用特別去講因為這樣會變成每次都要去講一遍因為它本來就不用課"},{"start":13307.1,"end":13326.876,"text":"另外一個就是說委員建議取消10年限制的部分要跟委員特別報告一下因為目前納稅者權利保護法施行之後在它第6條有規定所有的租稅優惠就納稅者權利保護法第6條有規定所有的租稅優惠都必須明定實施年限"},{"start":13327.717,"end":13356.476,"text":"那不動產正確化條例是舊的法是在我們納保法施行之前所以當時沒有定那就變成要用定期檢討的方式但所有新的法只要涉及租稅優惠都會有我們納保法第6條一個限制所以這個10年是現在所有的租稅優惠條都必須要定期加一個期限這個要跟委員會報因為委員後面也有一些需要取消所謂優惠使用年限的其實都是同一個法例"},{"start":13358.178,"end":13361.941,"text":"全都要規定那個時間嗎?那現在新波型的這個是有特定期限嗎?"},{"start":13362.97,"end":13376.435,"text":"因為信託型是舊的法是我們納保法實施之後才納保法實施之前所以當時沒有定因為那時候沒有法律限制嘛那這個就等於是要以後變成定期檢討所以變成後面那個中心要來檢討對如果說金管會要修法的時候我們必須也是要受到納保法的一個拘束"},{"start":13393.117,"end":13418.923,"text":"如果它沒有修法的話那個就是一樣沒有特定期限是這樣子嗎?信託行政?理論上是這樣啦但是因為從行政機關的角度應該是說我應該都要把租稅優惠重新檢討一遍才對但這個有修法時程的問題大家都會慢慢去排嘛我去問一下現在的這個信託基金收益憑證有課稅嗎?"},{"start":13423.032,"end":13448.426,"text":"你來請莊局長不是啦,就是說現在的不是指不動產喔我說信託、基金、收益憑證、交易有收稅嗎?有信基金ETF有啊對啊ETF在市集市場買賣的因為這個交易稅就是買賣我知道啊,稅率是多少?千分之一千分之一嘛齁那所以你這個不動產"},{"start":13451.14,"end":13475.718,"text":"買賣不動產投資信託基金收益憑證你給他10年免稅是給予優惠嘛那給予優惠的目的就是要鼓勵這種交易嘛是不是這樣子所以我覺得這要有年限比較好啊你時間到的時候再來檢討如果依當時的需要到時間到而且我覺得一次給10年真的很長欸你需要鼓勵這麼久嘛"},{"start":13478.121,"end":13502.056,"text":"這反而是另一個問題因為一獎勵就10年10年都免稅10年到的時候才檢討這是鼓勵更多人來去投入這個行業那我一直有需要做到這麼大的鼓勵嗎因為資金在市場上面通常這個就是現在一般民間這些團體說這是資本利得你對這個資本利得的稅"},{"start":13506.133,"end":13533.907,"text":"減免目的是鼓勵,這樣我們可以了解可是你鼓勵鼓勵10年欸這是另外一個思考啦,你們想一下張議長也要說明一下這個也許財政部也許等一下財政部可以再補充那基本上我們在跟財政部交涉的時候他對於這種比較不動產的性質的東西他目前跟我們談的大概用10年的概念來設定所以後面的法規都是用10年的概念來設定"},{"start":13537.037,"end":13559.293,"text":"董事長請補充說明通常我們這個我覺得如果原來垂詢的是我們一般財政部的立場我們一般都認為租稅優惠的條文應該要定期檢討所以定期一般我們大概都是定譬如3年、5年譬如當初降稅當然不就定3年就總之如果檢討的頻率需要高的我們就會定的短"},{"start":13559.853,"end":13587.026,"text":"如果他檢討頻率是可以比較長的那我們就會訂的比較長這是我們一般在就稅優惠是十一期限的訂定原則所以這個等於是要看一下就是主管機關本身他認為這個東西是不是需要到這麼長那當時當然是金管會有認為需要長一點所以我們財政部是尊重金管會的意見這樣當時是這樣"},{"start":13589.611,"end":13601.797,"text":"我覺得鼓勵性質、鼓勵這個投入是有需要這樣的誘因而且是10年的話要檢討10年是最長可以給的時間嗎?像我們立場當然就不一樣了一般就給10年是不是?好,那如果各位人沒有其他的意見的話我們就照行政院版本通過"},{"start":13617.359,"end":13635.663,"text":"四條之三那我們就照行政院版本通過那我們現在預告一下好不好我們待會是不是審到12點半讓大家休息一下吃個飯那大概還有另外一個法還有一個不動產條例先把這一個弄完"},{"start":13638.582,"end":13653.894,"text":"好 那可是我想說是不是要休息個5分鐘讓他上一下洗手間好 兩個多鐘頭好 那也要代理主席一下"},{"start":13657.478,"end":13680.183,"text":"第十十九條之十四先讀第十九條之十四修正單一第三項後段修正一單之十之扣繳率、扣繳稅款分離課稅不並計其分類年度營利事業所得額其餘均同行政院提案先讀完畢好謝謝我們請武力法委員提案人說明"},{"start":13681.557,"end":13698.216,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊是主要希望給予機構法人分離課稅10%的優惠因為我看到的資料像這種台北商辦其實它的毛收益率大概是2%"},{"start":13699.997,"end":13724.298,"text":"再扣掉行政成本大概剩1%多那像離岸風場的話自由資金估算的這個內部報酬率大概也只有3到4%所以我是想說對於要引資回台來講誘因是有限啦所以我才會增加說與本條文生效日起算我是給一個落日條款5年內"},{"start":13725.359,"end":13748.079,"text":"然後依10%之扣繳率、扣繳稅款、分離課稅不並計其分配年度盈利事業所得。」我大概做這樣的說明我的說明我的事實上是跟那個吳委員是一樣的鼓勵啊,要有點誘引那金管會是不是對於他們的提案做說明"},{"start":13750.165,"end":13778.53,"text":"這個條文主要是我們是跟財政部協商出來的結果那時候協商出來的結果就是個人分離課稅10年法人病毒引溯稅那這個是另外提出來的那可能就是要看財政部這邊的意見財政部的意見是我跟委員報告因為居山剛才會剛開始大家一直在討論因為我們現在已經有信託架構的位置那這個叫基金架構的位置所以我們當時原則上是維持一個租稅不要有差別待遇的情況"},{"start":13779.45,"end":13801.567,"text":"目前我們所得稅法的課稅原則現在我們所謂的分離課稅基本上只是限於個人的部分而且現在個人我們也慢慢想要限縮的原因是因為有很多那種高資產者如果取得這個所得你讓他分離課稅不是就並濟累進稅率的時候會造成所謂所得分配上的問題"},{"start":13802.768,"end":13828.469,"text":"最近不是常常講財富分配惡化啦或是所得分配惡化所以我們其實現在個人分離課稅慢慢在限縮當中那盈利系的部分因為根據我們現行盈利系所有的分離課稅基本上都已經取消掉唯一剩下的也不能叫分離課稅就是我們叫分開計稅就我們叫房地合一2.0的部分它是用高稅率高稅率我們才會讓它獨立出來去課比較高的稅"},{"start":13831.551,"end":13856.353,"text":"那這個盈利蟹的部分為什麼你一般都認為不要讓它合併到盈利蟹所得它是回到銀索稅的課稅制度裡面如果今天這家盈利蟹它有其他的虧損它是可以跟它衝的跟它衝然後以最後的結果再來課稅可是你分離課稅之後假設它有其他的虧損它就不能衝了它不能衝所以我們銀索大概基本上都回到盈利蟹來一併來計算 對"},{"start":13859.435,"end":13872.146,"text":"我們這樣提的,像剛剛委員所說的有的這個可能標的投資效益很差,如果再這樣併進去的話投資效益差才正好要併進去,併進去虧損可以把母公司的那個提掉啊投資效益很差就不到那麼好,我們說虧損不到那麼好,如果我們不給一點賦稅上的優惠我擔心的話有的東西會沒有優惠投入的人變少,我們訂這個法目的就希望投入的不管是個人或機構都是多的"},{"start":13888.519,"end":13890.741,"text":"請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具:「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文"},{"start":13917.287,"end":13943.406,"text":"宣讀宣讀第14、49條之15修正同意後段修正為其因納稅額之計算依土地稅法第16條規定之基本稅率課徵遞交稅宣讀完畢這是我提到一樣就是基本稅率這應該是內政那邊的嘛一樣啦就是說用基本稅率事實上應該不是差別太大如果累進太多的話事實上是不是"},{"start":13944.668,"end":13969.499,"text":"新的這個項目總是要鼓勵人家多多投入這是我們要推這個項目的原因吧?那一樣保留同樣的爭議嘛我們有49條之15那要保留來第49條之1716好16不好意思16好有沒有問題?沒問題那我們照行政院版本通過齁"},{"start":13972.285,"end":13987.041,"text":"宣讀第49條之17修正動議第二項修正為前項合併之條件、程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之。其餘同行請審提案。宣讀完畢"},{"start":13990.333,"end":14006.689,"text":"因為這個REITs的現金不會低,如果要求其買回意義受益權,恐將造成這個REITs需要變賣現有投資標的,不利多數受益人權利,失去合併的這個效力所以提案這個刪除,這個跟這個主管機關原來的法令不一樣的地方請說明"},{"start":14012.695,"end":14037.783,"text":"金管會這邊說明這邊主要是因為那時候是參考為了保護異議受益人的買回的權利所以我們那時候是參考企業併購法的規定特別針對說有不同意合併的受益人有這個權利要求他有這個權利請他去買回那針對有不合併的受益人可以按照當時的一些公平價格去買回這些"},{"start":14038.843,"end":14065.939,"text":"受益憑證那相關的規定由授權我們主管機關訂定這個訂的目的其實就是為了保護異議的受益人這樣子跟這個防止這個做都跟圍牢那個情形會不會到時候我是舉那個情形說到時候會不會所謂的少數牽涉到影響到多數企業合併過程也是有類似這種股東、異議股東也是會有這樣的機制的存在都有啦那真的這是保護條款這個真的是保護條款"},{"start":14068.524,"end":14083.608,"text":"若沒有意見的話,我們就照行政院版本通過來,我們49條之18請問各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,我們就照行政院版本通過49條之19宣讀第49條之19修正動議第一項,續文"},{"start":14089.557,"end":14109.148,"text":"後段修正為及公共建設不動產及公共建設相關權利不動產及公共建設相關有價證券因合併而移轉適用下列規定第五款修正為及不動產及公共建設不動產及公共建設相關權利及有價證券之移轉非屬所得稅課徵範圍"},{"start":14111.733,"end":14140.1,"text":"舉同行政院提案先傳遞好 那我們請提案委員這個其實就是跟上面一樣我們家的公共建設的部分這跟從頭開始這個包括中間有被保留的那個條文裡頭公共建設相關的就是第一個希望鼓勵投入公共建設然後這個部分的話就是對於稅制上也給一些優惠重點的目的根源還是希望這個相關的基金相關的資金多多投入公共建設原因理由一致"},{"start":14141.479,"end":14169.596,"text":"好 那請那個金管會、政企局 那就是如同剛剛一直提到的如果是公共建設屬於不動產的範圍啊所有的租稅優惠都是這樣一體適用的不需要特別寫那如果是逾越這個範圍可能就是需要跟財政部再去協商這是我們跟財政部協商之後就是合併可以給予的一些租稅優惠的一些民事的規範好 那金管會的這條要保留"},{"start":14170.97,"end":14198.351,"text":"好,那我們49條第19齁,我們就保留接下來第4張,喔第49條,這是20,20,嗯,來好,照行政院版本通過,好,沒有意見齁,好,照行政院版本通過,來,第4張痾,證券投資信張明,第4張張明,第4張痾,證券投資欸,這個部分"},{"start":14200.004,"end":14226.121,"text":"沒有不同意見嗎?依照行政院版本通過好,第63條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過好,第66條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第67條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過好,第68條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,那我們按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14235.735,"end":14261.075,"text":"第69條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第70條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第70條之一各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第71條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第72條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14262.588,"end":14282.836,"text":"第74條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?按照行政院版本通過第二節之一不動產投資信託事業各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?按照行政院版本通過第82條之一各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14290.442,"end":14313.83,"text":"第二條之一有,剛剛已經講好,來,第82條之二各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第82條之三各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第82條之四各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第82條之五各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14314.87,"end":14331.485,"text":"第84條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第87條各位有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第94條各位有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第100條各位有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14341.208,"end":14343.089,"text":"101條,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14343.089,"end":14352.871,"text":"沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過104條,第104條,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14352.871,"end":14360.073,"text":"沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第105條,各位有沒有意見?第101條之一,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14364.076,"end":14379.864,"text":"沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第105條各位有沒有意見沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第105條之一各位有沒有意見好,沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第106條各位有沒有意見沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14382.585,"end":14384.926,"text":"第107條各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14384.926,"end":14385.586,"text":"沒有意見?"},{"start":14385.586,"end":14389.547,"text":"按照行政院版本通過第108條各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14389.547,"end":14390.087,"text":"沒有意見?"},{"start":14390.087,"end":14392.548,"text":"按照行政院版本通過第111條配合49條之3這一條我們予以保留"},{"start":14410.492,"end":14425.14,"text":"好,第112條,各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?好,我們按照行政院版本通過第113條,各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?這個,我們看一下,對照一下條文齁,看有沒有保留條款"},{"start":14441.116,"end":14445.998,"text":"第113條行政院版本通過第114條行政院版本通過"},{"start":14463.652,"end":14486.598,"text":"第117條之一第115條各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們按照行政院版本通過第117條之一各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們按照行政院版本通過第121條刪除各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版本通過第122條刪除各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14492.827,"end":14520.026,"text":"好,那另外我們保留的部分我們就進行協商這個不是要送協商了嗎?這就送協商了啦沒有要繼續再討論了就送協商我們那個不動產的部分我們順便走完好不好?"},{"start":14525.519,"end":14537.61,"text":"來,那個條,來一份這應該比較...49支好幾條?這是316條?沒有"},{"start":14548.792,"end":14557.242,"text":"本院委員郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案 等2案。"},{"start":14572.286,"end":14572.806,"text":"好、好、好"},{"start":14603.748,"end":14618.794,"text":"對,我們現在用那個不動產證券化條例的修正動議請大家看一下好,第四條我們針對這個修正動議說明一下好不好這個我們之前舊版本的部分有進行一些協商"},{"start":14623.971,"end":14646.323,"text":"大委員這個部分的話第四條的是定義性的條文那針對第三項修正的部分的話我們是接受委員的建議好那我們就請大家看一下那個不動產修正動議的部分本席所提的部分這個修正的內容"},{"start":14649.97,"end":14670.226,"text":"這一邊跟原條文的差異主要是針對就是說不動產相關的有價證券我們本來是一個是定義性的條文那現在改成就是只經主管機關核定准與投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品"},{"start":14670.686,"end":14694.514,"text":"那這個部分的話因為跟我們剛剛講的那個基金型的是一致的啦因為這個基本上都是定義性條文所以我們考慮到說這個跟基金型的修正是一致的所以我們會一併修正其實就是兩個法把它一致化啦簡單的講是這樣子那如果沒意見的話我們就按照這一個"},{"start":14697.619,"end":14722.139,"text":"郭國文委員等委員修正的版本通過來,兩個部分把木去掉因為看起來第一項第一款是把那個但書拿掉了跟剛剛那個法案又不太一樣對第一修一的有恢復的那個黃委員跟你說明一下有恢復就修正單位有恢復第一有一支"},{"start":14723.719,"end":14725.521,"text":"第6條請莊局長說明一下第6條請大家看到第"},{"start":14749.02,"end":14751.041,"text":"第18款第18款的部分的話這個也是"},{"start":14764.939,"end":14792.714,"text":"跟那個就是投信投顧法的修正一樣就是投信投顧法那邊都把這個開發型的不動產或不動產相關權利全部都一起拿掉有有有剛剛都已經拿掉了我們主要是條文定義的一致化第五條第五條第五條所以第五條不過剛剛第五條我們是保留啦"},{"start":14802.972,"end":14815.514,"text":"請補充說明一下好不好我先跟他說明好幾次了就是因為他不要開發型一直做一個類型的限制把一些那個"},{"start":14818.974,"end":14821.217,"text":"對,他們有同意了,把它進行中也納入啦"},{"start":14835.345,"end":14836.526,"text":"希望開發階段就可以投入嗎?"},{"start":14864.67,"end":14869.614,"text":"我來幫忙說明一下啦因為事實上開發型是不動產這幾個字你要給他定義就很困難啦"},{"start":14880.688,"end":14903.646,"text":"開發型跟正在開發是不一樣正在開發是一個描述嘛那開發型之不動產是一個名詞嘛什麼叫做開發型之不動產那是貨後面只正進行或規劃進行開發之不動產這個是已經定義在裡頭了那你現在把它拿掉以後會變成是"},{"start":14907.348,"end":14907.528,"text":"當初為什麼寫這樣?"},{"start":14935.694,"end":14964.483,"text":"沒有一的形容詞當初為什麼要設呢?對,那是20年前的所以他要拿掉那這一條就按照郭委員的這個修正動議通過好,謝謝接著我們第六條他被反面解釋對,現在是以前有,現在沒有第六條沒有,他剛才是回到第五條現在第六條"},{"start":14974.361,"end":14986.714,"text":"第四頁第六條的最後一項那這一邊委員建議的部分的話就是在說如果今天是有一個受益證券就是要募集或者是"},{"start":14987.455,"end":15014.654,"text":"要募集這個受益證券的時候投資標的沒有明確的狀況之下那是不是他在送的這些申請文件上面要載明他的相關的項目那這些他要載明的這些相關的項目就是由我們執法來訂定就是等於是說今天有一個基金要募集應該就是說受益證券要募集的時候標的不明確"},{"start":15015.695,"end":15042.442,"text":"指標沒有確定的,標定不會,通常我們實務遇到的他不是全部都沒有只是某幾個標的不確定所以可是他這個標的沒有確定的話他就必須在投資計畫裡面他去說明一些事項說他將來可能在什麼時候會要確定或者他可能的這個標的的性質是什麼那所以我們這一塊我們就給就是"},{"start":15043.702,"end":15059.275,"text":"這些受託機構一些就是一些彈性說我們將來會在他的執法裡面去訂定相關應遵循的事項這個是郭委員的修正案你們本來沒有這一款"},{"start":15061.668,"end":15079.157,"text":"對,是因為有一些樣態就是說它的整個投資標的還沒有完整化的情況底下你要再直反投來進行規範就很像是我們ETF你還沒有買完全好的成分股的概念式的一頭那因為有一些是不齊有時候是不足那這種樣態"},{"start":15080.478,"end":15093.475,"text":"然後另外你要追募的這個基金要增加的話一樣要在這個執法裡頭做規定本來我們是封閉型的部分嘛就是我們大家匡列一定的金額但我們要追募的時候也要按照這種執法來做規範這是一個行政"},{"start":15097.077,"end":15121.063,"text":"報委員其實現在在境外的那個標的如果不明確的時候我們本來就訂有一些就是說他在投資計畫裡面要怎麼說明所以現在其實等於是說那本來境內的基金本來就沒有限定說他是不是他的標的要確定所以現在等於是說我們把本來在執法的東西放到某法裡面來"},{"start":15123.866,"end":15150.378,"text":"我也支持郭委員我覺得這個今晚會很多東西最好定的越明確越好好 那謝謝大家的支持那我就按照郭國文委員等的修正動議通過那接下來第17條第8條來 第8條各位有沒有意見好 那沒有意見我們就照那個"},{"start":15153.79,"end":15179.866,"text":"這是照郭國文委員的提案版本通過第9條那有版本在哪裡?原來有審訟國際會計準則啊在哪裏?在這邊啊?在這邊啊?國際會計準則他把原來財務會計準則改成國際會計準則"},{"start":15182.517,"end":15191.702,"text":"好,沒有意見,照郭國文委員的提案版本通過,來第9條好,沒有意見,照郭國文委員第9條通過,來第17條"},{"start":15213.464,"end":15238.534,"text":"有修正東西喔,來請那我們有再修正喔第17條請看一下另外這個白的這一份修正沒有再修正就修正就白的這個部分這個就是那個嘛這個就是剛剛我們提的那個就是維持30%的部分啦"},{"start":15240.802,"end":15253.713,"text":"這也是把這個條文一次化,跟剛剛的那個《證券投顧法》的一部分一樣做一個上限,一樣30%這個不是啊,你做的是第17條嗎?對,第17條"},{"start":15259.629,"end":15285.463,"text":"這是剛有保留的,不過我也是支持這個題,綜藝啊。跟我的題一樣,是保留的,不過這一個跟本期題的修正動議是一致的,所以我也是支持。那是不是照這個修正動議通過好不好?好,謝謝。就照這個修正。第19條。回到黃色這一本,第19條。"},{"start":15286.96,"end":15295.714,"text":"各位有沒有意見?沒有意見就按顧問法的版本通過第二十二條修正動議"},{"start":15301.718,"end":15331.207,"text":"提的目的為何?就是提出來修飾的兩日內辦理公告跟原來有什麼不一樣?增加會計組的規定那應該還有就前後條文把它一致化就是增加規定就對了好那沒有意見那就按照郭國文委員的修正動議通過來最後我們再回到黃的第25條版本的那個提案內容第25條之一各位有沒有意見?25條25條之一"},{"start":15332.981,"end":15358.499,"text":"好,沒有,沒有修正動議報告25條之一因為是修正是裡面牽涉到就是合併的合併的這個租稅那這個部分的話我們是不是那就不要了就按照銀行局的尊重銀行局的意思我們這一條就不予增電不予增電還有一個呢"},{"start":15360.106,"end":15384.651,"text":"還有一個是19條的部分就是介入款去作為什麼樣的目的這邊那現在因為委員建議是要擴增到其他的有價證券也可以做的取得也可以做介入款那這邊我們是擔心說如果可以做這麼多的介入款的話槓桿效果太大所以建議還是維持原來的條文"},{"start":15385.751,"end":15398.338,"text":"那就維持原條文嘛好不好我們就按好維持現行條文第49條就維持現行條文還有再來第9條的部分的話請大家看到第738頁"},{"start":15403.465,"end":15418.586,"text":"這個部分的話最主要是在於是說如果這個私募基金這個基金如果要擴大規模的話那個現行的條文是還是要經過受益人會議的通過"},{"start":15420.688,"end":15433.664,"text":"那委員建議是說只要達到一定比率或者金額才要收益人會通過那今晚會議這邊是認為說因為你要變更基金的規模其實會牽涉到基金的淨值還有"},{"start":15435.186,"end":15452.375,"text":"其受益人相關權益所以建議是說只要變更基金規模的時候都應該要經過受益人會議也就是維持現行的條文這程序條款就是要先尊重受益人先召開會議所以說我們就尊重銀行局的堅持第9條維持現行條文第26條經管會員要意見"},{"start":15466.234,"end":15485.188,"text":"二十六條金管會有沒有意見?二十六條這邊就是按照委員的建議因為這是那個國際跨境準則是名詞的修正那第二十六條就照郭國文的這個提案的版本通過來,第三十一條也是吧"},{"start":15486.496,"end":15514.728,"text":"好,各位也沒意見沒意見那就按照郭國文的提案版本通過好,來那個李坤澄委員這我問一下齁你對條文有意見還是沒有沒有沒有我是說第我不好意思回到第17條啦第17條17條這邊是說不得投資於住宅法啊這跟我們剛討論這一個《證券投資信託及顧問法》這個所以我們這個是通過了還是保留保留過保留嘛齁這個是保留嘛齁都一樣保留嘛齁"},{"start":15517.004,"end":15534.839,"text":"對,這邊是通過還是保留?剛剛是想通過,照修正通過。保留的是那個法。對,所以這邊是通過,那邊是保留就對了。不同法。這不是要一致化嗎?不是啦,我是說要一致又一致啦。好。"},{"start":15543.064,"end":15543.444,"text":"請各位稍後"},{"start":15573.489,"end":15577.433,"text":"他在念的時候我們跟他合照一下他還是會再回到財政委員會"},{"start":15625.635,"end":15626.595,"text":"好,我們現在宣讀協商結論"},{"start":15629.847,"end":15648.155,"text":"宣讀《證券投資信託及顧問法協商結論》法案名稱照行政院提案通過第一條照行政院提案通過第二條照行政院提案通過增訂第三條之一照行政院提案通過第五條保留送院會協商"},{"start":15649.395,"end":15674.765,"text":"第六條,照行政院提案通過第七條,照行政院提案通過第八條,照行政院提案通過增訂第二章之一章名,照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之一,照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之二,照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之三,保留送宴會協商增訂第...保留協商"},{"start":15676.738,"end":15704.455,"text":"增訂第49條之4造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之5造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之6造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之7造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之8造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之9造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之10造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之11造行政院提案通過保留、送協商"},{"start":15707.543,"end":15720.574,"text":"增訂第49條之12照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之13照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之14保留送學商增訂第49條之15保留送學商"},{"start":15726.789,"end":15749.556,"text":"增訂第49條之16造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之17造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之18造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之19保留宋協商增訂第49條之20造行政院提案通過第4張張明造行政院提案通過第63條造行政院提案通過"},{"start":15752.022,"end":15755.907,"text":"第66條、第67條、第68條、第69條、第70條、第70條之一、第71條、第72條、第74條均照行政院提案通過。增訂第二節之一結名,照行政院提案通過。"},{"start":15768.542,"end":15793.551,"text":"增訂第82條之一造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之二造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之三造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之四造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之五造行政院提案通過第84條造行政院提案通過第87條造行政院提案通過第94條造行政院提案通過第100條造行政院提案通過第101條造行政院提案通過"},{"start":15794.511,"end":15804.515,"text":"第104條照行政院提案通過 增定第104條之一照行政院提案通過第105條照行政院提案通過第106條照行政院提案通過第107條、108條均照行政院提案通過第111條保留算學商第112條、第113條、第114條、第115條"},{"start":15818.001,"end":15828.75,"text":"均照行政院提案通過增訂第117條之一照行政院提案通過刪除第121條照行政院提案通過刪除第122條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":15831.28,"end":15854.125,"text":"宣讀不動產證券化條例協商結論第四條,照委員郭國文等三人修正動議通過第六條,照委員郭國文等三人修正動議通過第八條,照委員郭國文等16人提案通過第九條,維持現行條文第十七條,保留送協商第十九條,維持現行法條文"},{"start":15855.365,"end":15878.613,"text":"第二十二條趙文、郭國文等三人修正動議通過第二十五條之一不予爭定第二十六條趙文、郭國文等16人提案通過第三十一條趙文、郭國文等16人提案通過詢問完畢好,請問各位委員對協商結論有無異議好,無異議我們照協商結論通過本日會議做如下決議一"},{"start":15881.232,"end":15902.48,"text":"證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案3案全案審查完畢並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前交由黨團協商院會討論時由本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議好沒有異議通過好"},{"start":15905.144,"end":15924.08,"text":"第二不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案審查完略擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有好無異議通過休息"}]}},{"id":"152558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0b5f677e927b663f0ad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c566a45ae5360df2805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:47:06 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針對你的施政 我提出質詢 質詢有道理不能無厘頭 不能謾罵 不能情緒訓 不能咆哮我過去十幾年跟你互動 我有咆哮過嗎我秉持一個原則 您要秉持一個溫良公檢當所以我尊重你自己的保證 我尊重東東山保證 參與吳釗燮保證"},{"start":186.584,"end":186.604,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":216.832,"end":229.145,"text":"先來講 先來證 邪魔就不入先來講 邪魔就不入所以先來講 邪魔就不入 怕你怕到不行聽不順聽不順"},{"start":253.344,"end":265.934,"text":"邱志偉委員你也很辛苦連你這個外交部的工作都非常辛苦但是為了國家為了人民選擇選擇求實事做實事這個弱者"},{"start":273.001,"end":278.336,"text":"博聲亮進口秀你歡迎行者入圍入就"},{"start":280.686,"end":302.106,"text":"所以外交部現在很認真針對各行政策要好好討論你今天的報告裡面具體的推案作為包括所有的可以做的爭取國際與國幫認同大概到四位行動團包括用立法部門多元方式國際輿論"},{"start":304.008,"end":327.513,"text":"每一年每一年的成果都還不錯都逐漸累積有什麼我們沒辦法還是沒辦法叫做WHA當然一般的常識我會認為一定是一國一人在動嘛一國就是中華人民共和國對不對一個人就是那個幹事長幹事長的任期到什麼時候2027年阿拉庫喔嗯"},{"start":330.902,"end":351.99,"text":"但是我們還是要持續不斷的努力在努力的過程中我們可以建立更多有我的力量培養更多的年輕人對這個問題的關注因為我們在世界各國的校園有很多留學生我們透過留學生的力量去影響他們的國家因為年輕人的聲音很大"},{"start":354.588,"end":380.404,"text":"所以這部分要加強這個對年輕人對這個問題的問題意識以及投入這個台灣WHA相關的這個作為沒有我看很多都你們可操之在我的部分應該全部都做了全部都做啊非操之在己的部分就是我講中國跟藤賽德這個部分你怎麼努力你就沒辦法突破嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":381.774,"end":399.987,"text":"我想委員說得非常對,就是完全超視在我們的這個部分,我們要再回頭過去檢視說還有什麼沒有做好,還是沒有做前。剛才你提到說我們在海外的這些留學生,我們海外的僑民的這個部分,我們有在努力,但是可能還可以再加強。"},{"start":400.928,"end":416.804,"text":"那有關於這種動員國際的這個友人的部分在過去這幾年我們有看到一些具體的成果比如說聯合進洽的這個官員的成績以及人數都在增加當中有幫我們寫推薦函的這些人也增加當中"},{"start":417.685,"end":440.322,"text":"那幫我們去公開講話的或者是說間接來講話的這個也都在增加當中所以這個是具體的方向所以說雖然這一條路有比較艱苦有比較辛苦但是你所做的都留下痕跡你所做的都會成為一個累積慢慢來你也累積到一個程度你的效果就會出現"},{"start":442.023,"end":452.208,"text":"而且中國不是說不能改變 中國隨時都會改變的它內政的問題 經濟的問題 這權力鬥爭的問題 美中這個鬥爭的問題它隨時都會發生變動的所以在國際上 英雄人隨時會抗擊對不對對 尤其是他們的經濟能力下滑的過程我們做超市賽制 做到緊繃 是做到滿 待以時機 適當的時機 我們就可以達陣"},{"start":472.033,"end":486.907,"text":"要有耐心不然還有信心然後結合所有年齡層的力量比如說尤其是年輕人像在海外那種對國家的領導我非常感動中國大賽在哈佛在那邊演講台灣女生在那邊唱什麼這是黃金培"},{"start":498.567,"end":508.481,"text":"所以你要公布我們的校園長他們是他們DNN就是愛台灣人的土地不敢台灣在國際社會上收到中國給予所以我就說齁"},{"start":514.246,"end":534.569,"text":"我要講可能還要講兩小時兩小時可能會浪費時間因為今天是你最晚嘛是那你雖然轉換寶刀一樣是在這個國安體系你現在你擔任委員會的主席你還要整合以你的經驗我相信你會做得很好"},{"start":535.55,"end":535.57,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":557.783,"end":579.828,"text":"與眾欣賞國家安全跟國防跟外交台灣是個特殊的處境不管在什麼位置上我都會努力要與國家為念要與人民為念要與子子孫孫為念不能一己一師一黨之力你要博聲量"},{"start":582.71,"end":584.371,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":592.518,"end":612.216,"text":"這個我相信所有的這些你們的司處長都很認真有時候這個要變成新的環境、新的變局有時候有理想背景所以你要對我們這個外交、國安、福利都要很認真我會力挺他們那你了解隨時在外管的每一個狀況都要給"},{"start":616.632,"end":620.321,"text":"讓所有的外交部同仁以作為中華民國外交官為榮"}]}},{"id":"152557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0fc44f96b2ec4a27fad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c5fe735c1817cf84155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"14:21:19 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14:29:45","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":506,"end_time":"2024-05-15T14:29:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T14:21:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1394,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（14時21分）有請我們的吳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員你好。"],["林委員月琴：部長好。部長，這是你以外交部長的身分來接受質詢的最後一週……"],["吳部長釗燮：而且可能好像也是最後一個，非常榮幸。"],["林委員月琴：未來也有新的位置在等待你的奉獻，來協助我們的總統跟副總統在國安業務上，我相信你應該也會本著你過去在外交亮眼的成績來協助我們的國安事務。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，我會盡我的能力。"],["林委員月琴：今天事實上想跟部長討論兩個議題。因為我自己來自兒少，以前一直在做社會福利，當然下一代一直是我們關心的，他們的健康更是我們關心的。所以部長想問你，就是目前我們是否有收到國際衛生組織邀請？以及在爭取邀請前，我們的行政部門跟立法部門做了哪些努力？目前沒有收到的話，它最大的問題是什麼？是政治干預，還是有其他因素？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們還沒有收到邀請函，阻撓我們收到邀請函的來源就是一個：就是中國政府。在我們還沒有收到邀請函之前，我們行政部門還是盡我們的全力來努力，我們不到最後一刻是不會有任何放棄的念頭。到目前為止，我們在做的這些方向，譬如說在安排我們的邦交國能夠替我們提案、替我們發言，或者是非邦交國能夠幫我們連署、能夠幫我們聯合進洽，或者是說在大會裡面幫我們發言，這些都是我們正在安排的。甚至是我們新任的衛福部長到日內瓦去的時候，也能夠跟其他國家的重要官員展開雙邊的會談，能夠強化我們臺灣跟其他國家的衛生部門的合作。","我們臺灣的立法院也有視導團前往日內瓦，我們也會協助我們的立法委員在那邊展現我們的聲音，所以這個是我們持續努力的一個過程。我知道我們參與世界衛生組織是一個不容易的過程，但是我們必須要長此以往持續地努力，讓更多的國家、更多的機構、更多的人民能夠來支持我們臺灣參與世界衛生組織。"],["林委員月琴：我相信外交部做了很多，真的也要讓我們的青少年知道。因為他們有一個很大的擔憂，就是說我們一直受到中國的打壓，尤其是在82年之後出生的年輕人，事實上都非常有國家意識，他們覺得我們就是一個國家，可是卻讓另外一個國家來打壓我們。像前幾年COVID-19的疫情爆發之後，像這樣一個全球性的事，沒有任何一個人、任何一個國家可以置身事外，我國甚至還是在疫情爆發最早發現的國家，甚至後來還積極地去協助其他國家做預防措施，也讓其他國家可以效法來減緩他們疫情的狀況。我們都願意跟國際伸出援手，可是最後今年還是沒有收到WHA的會議邀請。若如部長所言，中國是這麼強力地施壓，第一個，我覺得應該讓更多年輕人知道這件事情，以及我們目前還有什麼樣的作為可以透過哪些多元方式參與這些世界性的組織？"],["吳部長釗燮：多元的方式當然是有，就是吸引更多的國家，不管他們是國會議員或者是行政部門，能夠公開來聲援我們。尤其是國會議員的部分，從波羅的海一直到中歐、西歐，甚至是中南美洲和印太地區的國會議員，支持我們的人是越來越多了。另外一個是政府部門協助我們的部分，我們也爭取到更多的國家來支持我們。一個很重要的關鍵，就是聯合國第2758號決議案被中國誤用、被中國錯誤的引述，造成世界衛生組織或者是聯合國等以為我們臺灣是屬於中華人民共和國，導致我們沒有辦法去參與。","為了解決這件事情，我們有去跟美國等等國家做過很深入的討論。我想委員也有看到，就是上個禮拜美國的一些資深官員也三度出來澄清，就是聯合國第2758號決議案跟中國的一個中國原則是沒有相關的，也沒有去界定我們臺灣跟其他國家的關係，也不涉及到我們臺灣的前途、地位，也沒有妨礙到臺灣可以去參加這些世界組織的活動。所以透過這些說明，也透過美國的朋友去跟更多的國家說明，這個是要剷除中國在國際社會上面對我們所施加的法律戰的一個必要步驟，我們很高興我們跟美國的合作已經開始了這個步驟。"],["林委員月琴：真的謝謝部長這麼鉅細靡遺的說明，這一段我也會轉達，因為我在大學任教，這可以讓我們的學生們、青少年們知道部長長期以來的努力。","第二個我要問的是，有關這陣子許多委員都在討論的洩密議題。目前我有針對此議題提出有關公益揭弊者法案，也就是明天要審查的，就是希望避免惡意爆料跟揭弊混為一談。因此我也修法，凡涉及到重大國家機密內容應該有一定的程序，而不是隨便就可以脫口跟媒體講，應該要有內部的揭弊，然後也包含跟政風機關及監察院等先行檢舉，如果達一定天數沒有結果才可公開。我想問部長的是，有關機密文件是否涉及到弊案，目前外交部的想法如何？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們外交部這些相關的文件，即使是列密，我們也知道接受立法院的監督非常重要，因為這個是確保……go through checks and balances，要確保我們政府部門的credibility或是integrity，所以這種方式就是要確保立法部門能夠監督到我們行政部門。但是我們會列密的理由，是因為我們不希望因為公開而影響到我們臺灣的外交利益或者是國家的利益，所以這些既有的規則如果大家都覺得沒有問題的時候，我們應該就是依照既有的規則處理。就像我剛剛在答復上一位委員質詢的時候提到，好像我們路上有紅綠燈，這個紅綠燈規範了我們行走的方式，也避免了車禍或者是事故的發生。"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["吳部長釗燮：如果是這樣子大家都沒有問題的話，那我們就繼續依照這個方式來走。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以不能隨便亂闖紅燈。立法院作為最高民意機關，的確有監督責任，但我覺得無論是外交、國防，凡涉及到國家重大機密的時候，我們都應該要謹慎處理。所以未來部長到國安會服務，我也希望部長能發揮所長，來輔佐我們的總統、副總統，完成更高的任務，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，我會持續地努力，真的是非常謝謝委員。","今天非常地榮幸，能夠最後一次到立法院來接受備詢。在這邊要謝謝各位委員的指教，也要謝謝主席今天再度邀請我到立法院來，能夠讓在我離開外交部之前，還有一次接受立法委員詢問的機會，謝謝大家。"],["林委員月琴：部長辛苦了，我也謝謝部長。"],["主席：我們接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請賴惠員委員，賴惠員、賴惠員委員不在。","請傅崐萁、傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","請賴瑞隆、賴瑞隆、賴瑞隆委員不在。","請林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","請伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華委員不在。","請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","請陳俊宇、陳俊宇、陳俊宇委員不在。","請林岱樺、林岱樺、林岱樺委員不在。","請賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","請邱議瑩、邱議瑩、邱議瑩委員不在。","請吳秉叡、吳秉叡、吳秉叡委員不在。","請郭國文、郭國文、郭國文委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳瑩、陳瑩、陳瑩委員不在。","請羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬委員不在。","請蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請沈發惠、沈發惠、沈發惠委員不在。","請劉建國、劉建國、劉建國委員不在。","請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請張宏陸、張宏陸、張宏陸委員不在。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有牛煦庭委員、翁曉玲委員、葉元之委員、張雅琳委員、林思銘委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供；委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.26284375,"end":1.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.82721875,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.02971875,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.35034375,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.758468750000002,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.63971875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.770343750000002,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.86721875,"end":38.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.01284375,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.759093750000005,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.173468750000005,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.21034375,"end":73.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.53409375000001,"end":128.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.48346875000001,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.07721875000001,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.16971875000002,"end":177.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.07909375,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.81659375,"end":339.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.33221875000004,"end":399.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.58034375000005,"end":399.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.66471875,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.83346875,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.96846875,"end":462.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.17909375000005,"end":456.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.94596875,"end":464.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.54471875,"end":474.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.94409375000004,"end":477.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.37409375000004,"end":485.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.71034375000005,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.98846875000004,"end":489.77721875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.59,"text":"吳部長請部長委員你好部長好部長這是你以外交部長的身份來接受質詢的最後一週而且可能好像也是最後一個"},{"start":19.684,"end":20.044,"text":"今天事實上想跟部長討論兩個議題"},{"start":43.129,"end":69.737,"text":"因為我自己來自耳邵以前一直在做社會福利當然下一代一直是我們關心的那他們的健康更是我們關心的所以部長想問你就是目前我們是否有收到國際衛生組織邀請以及在爭取邀請前我們的行政部門跟立法部門做了哪些努力那目前沒有收到的話那它最大的"},{"start":74.936,"end":95.727,"text":"我們還沒有收到那個邀請函那這個阻撓我們收到邀請函的來源就是一個就是中國政府在我們還沒有收到邀請函之前我們行政部門還是盡我們的全力來努力我們不到最後一刻是不會有任何這種放棄的這個念頭"},{"start":96.867,"end":117.561,"text":"到目前為止我們在做的這些方向比如說在安排我們的這個邦交國能夠替我們提案替我們發言或者是說這些非邦交國能夠幫我們連署能夠幫我們聯合競洽或者是說在大會裡面幫我們發言那這些都是我們正在安排的"},{"start":118.181,"end":134.724,"text":"甚至是我們的衛福部長新任的衛福部長到日內瓦去的時候也能夠跟其他國家的重要的官員展開雙邊的會談能夠強化我們台灣跟其他國家的衛生部門的這些合作我們台灣的立法院"},{"start":135.585,"end":161.892,"text":"也有四島團前往日內瓦那我們也會協助我們的這個立法委員在那邊展現我們的聲音所以這個是我們持續努力的這個一個過程那我知道我們參與世界衛生組織這是一個不容易的一個過程但是我們必須要長此以往持續的努力能夠讓更多的國家更多的機構更多的人民能夠來支持我們台灣參與世界衛生組織"},{"start":163.712,"end":188.189,"text":"我相信外交部做了很多那真的也要讓我們的青少年知道因為他們有一個很大的擔憂就是說我們一直受到中國的打壓尤其事實上是在82年出生之後的年輕人事實上都非常有國家意識他們覺得我們就是一個國家那可是卻讓另外一個國家來打壓我們"},{"start":189.19,"end":209.569,"text":"像從前幾年COVID-19的這樣的疫情爆發之後像這樣的一個全球性的是沒有任何一個人任何一個國家可以置身事外我國甚至還是在處理的在疫情爆發最早發現的國家甚至後來還積極的去協助其他國家做預防措施"},{"start":210.129,"end":236.591,"text":"﹗也讓其他國家可以效法來減緩他們的疫情的一個狀況我們都願意跟國際伸出援手來可最後今年還是沒有收到WHA的會議邀請如果是如部長所言中國這麼樣強力的施壓第一個我覺得應該讓年輕的更多人知道這件事情還有我們目前還有什麼樣一個作為可以透過這多元方式參與這些世界性的一個組織"},{"start":238.267,"end":263.961,"text":"多元的方式當然是有就是吸引更多的國家不管他們是國會議員或者是行政部門能夠公開來聲援我們尤其是國會議員的部分從波羅的海一直到中歐一直到西歐甚至是中南美洲的這些國會議員印太地區的這些國會議員支持我們的人是越來越多了另外一個就是說政府部門"},{"start":265.362,"end":288.081,"text":"我們也爭取到更多的這些國家來支持我們那一個很重要的關鍵就是聯合國第2758號決議案被中國誤用被中國這種錯誤的引述造成世界衛生組織或者是聯合國等等的以為說我們台灣是屬於中華人民共和國導致我們沒有辦法去參與"},{"start":289.082,"end":307.002,"text":"那為了解決這件事情我們是去跟美國等等的這些國家有做過很深入的這個討論那我想委員也有看到就是說上個禮拜美國的一些資深官員也三度的出來澄清就是聯合國第2758號決議案跟中國的一個中國原則"},{"start":307.483,"end":307.563,"text":"主席"},{"start":323.675,"end":325.356,"text":"我們很高興就是我們跟美國的合作已經開始了這個步驟"},{"start":340.387,"end":341.107,"text":"有關這陣子許多委員都在討論的有關洩密議題"},{"start":358.436,"end":380.756,"text":"目前我有針對此議題提出有關公益接避者法案那也就是明天要審查的就是希望避免惡意爆料跟接避混為一談因此我也修法將有關涉及到重大國家機密內容應該有一定的程序而不是隨便就可以脫口而出來跟媒體講應該要有內部的一個"},{"start":383.178,"end":383.919,"text":"目前外交部的想法如何?"},{"start":400.216,"end":428.499,"text":"我們那個外交部的這些相關的這些文件即使是獵密那我們也知道說接受立法院的監督非常的重要因為這個是確保go through checks and balances要確保那個我們的那個政府部門的那個這種credibility或是integrity那所以這種方式的話就是要確保立法部門能夠監督到我們行政部門"},{"start":429.339,"end":449.206,"text":"但是我們會劣密的這個理由是因為我們不希望公開來的話影響到我們台灣的這個外交的利益或者是國家的利益所以這些既有的這個規則如果說大家都覺得沒有問題的時候我們應該就是依照既有的規則就好像我剛剛在上一位的那個委員質詢的時候就好像說我們路上有紅綠燈"},{"start":450.206,"end":475.744,"text":"那這個紅綠燈規範了我們的行走的這種方式也避免了這種車禍或者是事故的發生那如果是這樣子大家都沒有問題的話那我們就繼續依照這個方式來走對所以不能隨便亂搶紅燈所以立法院的確作為最高民意的有監督的責任但我覺得無論是外交國防跟涉及到國家重大機密的時候我們都應該要謹慎處理"},{"start":477.465,"end":505.059,"text":"所以未來部長到國安會服務我也希望能發揮所長來輔助我們的總統副總統完成更高的任務謝謝謝謝委員我會持續的努力真的是非常謝謝委員今天非常的榮幸能夠最後一次到立法院來接受備詢那在這邊要謝謝各位委員的指教也要謝謝主席今天再度邀請我到立法院來能夠在離開外交部之前還有一次接受那個立法委員詢問的這個時間謝謝大家"},{"start":506.982,"end":507.188,"text":"我也謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0ccfe98efd0aa95edad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c5aa4188f185dccfdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"14:13:25 - 14:21:01","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":456,"end_time":"2024-05-15T14:21:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T14:13:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1368,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（14時13分）謝謝主席，還是麻煩吳部長。不好意思，讓你這麼忙！"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員不用覺得對我不好意思，這個是我的責任，來這邊接受備詢。"],["王委員正旭：部長你好，我來自醫界，所以一直都在衛環委員會，這是第一次到外交跟國防委員會來請教事情、答詢。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：關於今天的主題，就是怎麼樣讓國際社會可以支持臺灣來參與WHA。剛剛部長說到的SARS、腸病毒，我真的都感同身受，因為我們在醫院看到的就是這麼辛苦。尤其SARS那段時間，我在長庚體系服務，我們的同仁很勇敢地去救治這些病人，可是他也染疫了！後來他幾乎肺衰竭，經過二十多年來的復健，他現在慢慢才有好轉。所以參與國際社會，尤其是健康的部分，尤其是這種疾病、突發性疾病，對於臺灣的衝擊真的非常非常地大。很可惜！我們如果持續這樣地被排擠，應該是社會的損失、國際的損失……"],["吳部長釗燮：國際損失。"],["王委員正旭：同時也希望我們未來在下一任部長的持續努力之下，能夠把這樣的狀況有效地去扭轉。中國的打壓，對我們來講真的是要嚴厲譴責啦！這實在是很沒道理啦！2,300萬的人也是很重要的人口結構，而且我們有能力，可以透過我們去協助社會和世界，他們需要我們，我們也互相……"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員正旭：能夠透過大家去把該有的事情做好，實在不知道是什麼原因？部長可以再說明一下嗎？到底我們是受到了什麼樣的委屈？"],["吳部長釗燮：好。我想中國就是對臺灣有政治的企圖，來完成他們對外擴張的野心，所以他們對臺灣就是宣稱說臺灣是屬於中華人民共和國的。為了要達成他們的這個目標，他們要對臺灣實施軍事威脅、實施經濟脅迫，甚至是打壓臺灣的國際空間。尤其是外交，外交就是一個主權的展現、主權的象徵，所以這個就是一個中國打壓的重災區。但是無論中國怎樣打壓，我們的國人、我們的政府，尤其是我們的外交部門是沒有任何洩氣的理由，沒有任何不繼續努力去爭取的原因。","所以在過去這段時間，即使中國對我們的外交壓力是越來越大，但是也在我們同仁的積極努力之下，我們跟美國、日本、澳洲、加拿大、英國等等的這些國家，尤其是中、東歐國家的關係是有長足的進展。尤其是中、東歐國家，我常常在埋怨，就是說我們臺灣的外交部長，如果不是邦交國的話，是很難去的；即使能夠去，大概也沒有辦法公開。但是過去這幾年，你看我可以去好幾個東歐的國家，可以去那邊公開訪問、公開演講，這個就是我們打開的一條新路。我想這一條新路是留給未來更多努力的基礎，我相信接下來我們臺灣在國際社會上面被接受的程度會越來越高，我們臺灣能夠呈現給國際社會的程度也會越來越高，真的很謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：是，謝謝部長的努力，包括我們外交部的所有同仁，真的是很用心、很努力來打開我們整個跟外界之間的聯繫。其實衛福部薛部長也非常地努力……"],["吳部長釗燮：他很賣力。"],["王委員正旭：我們都一起努力。像薛部長最近就在國際媒體投書，就是說我們臺灣就是需要讓社會、讓全球都看得到我們想要幫助全球，尤其是在有重大事情發生的時候，我們去接軌全球。所以為因應下一波的大流行，臺灣真的不能缺席，臺灣缺席對世界真的是一個損失。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員正旭：所以我想我們應該要繼續朝這個地方來努力，也謝謝外交部持續地來爭取國際的支持，不管是參與WHA，或者是其他友好相關國家在做這部分的努力的同時，能夠持續讓臺灣貢獻我們的力量。這次WHO有提出了第14期的工作計畫，我們可以從下面看得到的，就是它有六大工作目標，包括因應氣候變遷帶來對健康的威脅、怎麼去解決一些健康的因素，還有推動初級健康照護等等。最後一項就是有關於即時偵測並有效因應健康、衛生緊急事件，這就是我們臺灣最能夠有機會去幫助全球、幫助我們自己的地方。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯。"],["王委員正旭：這個計畫其實跟我們目前賴總統當選人所提出的打造健康臺灣的政策是一致的，這個其實就是很好的銜接。所以我這次有機會參與WHA的整個活動，我們就希望把這樣的理念一起帶進來，能夠讓社會努力的這些過程讓全球都可以看得到。我們也希望讓全球這些衛生界的領袖，將來透過外交部的幫忙，還有透過醫療外交的情形，請他們專家來我們臺灣，看我們臺灣到底做得多進步，我們如何能夠把我們的制度、把我們的努力也讓全球都看得到。這一部分不曉得部長還有沒有其他的補充？"],["吳部長釗燮：不敢。我覺得我們過去這段時間在全球衛生上面的貢獻應該是國際社會都看到了，國際社會看待我們對公衛的處理，他們都把我們當成模範生，所以這個是我們感到非常驕傲的項目。","我們跟衛福部也不斷地在合作，希望能夠跟其他國家有更多衛生的合作。在過去這6年之間，我擔任外交部長，跟衛福部之間的關係是非常地緊密。我們是負責去做聯繫、去做溝通，當作一個平臺。衛福部不管是疾管署或者是其他的單位，他們就是專業，專業跟平臺之間做一個好的結合的話，是可以讓我們臺灣公衛的能力呈現於國際社會，被當作是一個良善力量。"],["王委員正旭：是，謝謝。所以打造健康臺灣這個政策其實跟WHO是完全一致的。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員正旭：所以我們期待透過包括外交部，還有整體我們國民的努力，讓這個成果未來是被世界看得到，而且是肯定的。好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請林月琴委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.00534375,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.578468750000001,"end":8.603468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.919718750000001,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.353468750000001,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.25909375,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.92034375,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.53159375,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.96721875,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.502843750000004,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.25346875,"end":99.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.61346875000001,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.08284375000001,"end":101.92221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.07409375,"end":106.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.29096875,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.40409375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.64471875,"end":230.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.01159375,"end":256.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.67159375000003,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.59846875,"end":271.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.87034375,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.25784375,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.40221875000003,"end":298.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.76909375,"end":302.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.35909375,"end":308.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.38784375,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.52284375,"end":312.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.52221875000004,"end":317.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.55096875000004,"end":347.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.74284375,"end":332.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.73409375,"end":334.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.02721875000003,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.76034375,"end":355.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.41409375,"end":362.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.91096875,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.52846875,"end":436.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.94159375000004,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.86721875,"end":455.80784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.209,"end":6.682,"text":"主席還是麻煩吳部長請部長抱歉失礼失礼你沒原因"},{"start":10.123,"end":31.023,"text":"委員 這是我的責任來這邊接受備詢部長你好我來自異界所以一直都在衛防委員會這是第一次到這個外交跟衛防委員會來請教事情答詢就是包括今天的主題就是怎麼樣讓國際的社會可以支持台灣來參與WHA"},{"start":33.905,"end":57.78,"text":"剛剛保廠說到SARS、腸病毒我真的都感同身受因為我們在醫院看到的就是這麼辛苦尤其SARS那段時間我常跟體系服務我們的同仁很勇敢地去救治我們這些病人可是他也染疫的後來他幾乎肺衰竭"},{"start":59.08,"end":72.648,"text":"經過二十多年來的復健,你現在慢慢的比較好所以參與國際社會,尤其是健康的部分尤其是這種疾病,突發性疾病對於台灣的衝擊真的非常非常的大"},{"start":73.388,"end":97.31,"text":"很可惜我們如果持續這樣的被排擠應該是社會的損失、國際的損失同時也希望我們未來能夠在部長往後持續下一任的部長努力之下能夠把這樣的狀況可以有效的去扭轉那真的是這個中國的打壓對我們來講真的是要嚴厲譴責這起來其實很不得力"},{"start":100.3,"end":122.833,"text":"兩千三百萬人也是很重要的人口結構而且我們有能力可以去透過我們去協助社會、協助世界他們也需要我們,我們也互相透過大家去把該有的事情做好實際上不知道是什麼原因,到底能不能保證、能不能講、說明一下到底我們是受到什麼危困"},{"start":123.813,"end":146.723,"text":"我想中國就是對台灣有這個政治的企圖來完成他們對外擴張的這個野心所以他們對台灣就是宣稱說台灣是屬於中華人民共和國的那為了要達成他們這個目標他們要對台灣實施軍事威脅實施經濟脅迫甚至是打壓台灣的這個國際空間"},{"start":149.004,"end":166.141,"text":"尤其是外交外交就是一個主權的展現主權的這個象徵所以這個就是一個中國打壓的一個重災區那但是無論是中國怎樣打壓我們的國人我們的政府尤其是我們的外交部門是沒有任何洩氣的理由"},{"start":166.661,"end":188.419,"text":"沒有任何不繼續努力去爭取的這個原因那所以在過去這段時間即使中國對我們的這個外交壓力是越來越大但是也在我們同仁的這個積極的努力之下我們跟美國日本澳洲加拿大英國等等的這些國家尤其是中東歐國家的這個關係是有長足的進展"},{"start":189.179,"end":203.949,"text":"尤其是中東歐國家,我經常在晚談就是說,我們台灣的外交部長如果說沒有邦交國的話是很難去的那即使能夠去的話大概也沒有辦法公開但是過去這幾年你看我可以去幾個國家在東歐的國家,可以去那裡公開訪問、公開演講"},{"start":210.173,"end":231.599,"text":"這就是我們打開的一條新路我想這一條新路是留給未來更多的這些努力的這種基礎我相信接下來我們台灣在國際社會上面被接受的這種程度是會越來越高我們台灣能夠呈現給國際社會的這個程度也會越來越高真的很感謝委員"},{"start":232.74,"end":233,"text":"臺灣就是需要讓"},{"start":256.759,"end":275.322,"text":"社會讓全球都看得到我們到底在想要幫助全球尤其是在這些相關有重大事情發生的時候我們去接軌全球所以他也因應下一波的大流行台灣真的不能缺席"},{"start":276.563,"end":301.913,"text":"臺灣缺席對世界真的是一個損失所以我想我們應該要繼續朝這個地方來努力那也很謝謝外交部持續的來爭取國際的支持不管是參與這個WHA．或者是其他友好相關國家在做這部分的努力的同時能夠持續讓臺灣貢獻我們的力量這次WHO他們有提出第14期的工作計畫"},{"start":303.574,"end":318.887,"text":"這個工作計畫我們可能可以下面看得到的就是它有六大的工作目標包括這個因應氣候變遷帶來對健康的威脅還有怎麼去解決一些健康的因素還有推動初級健康照護等等的"},{"start":319.427,"end":343.43,"text":"最後一項就是有關於即時偵測並有效因應健康衛生緊急事件這就是我們台灣最能夠有機會去幫助全球幫助我們自己的地方這個計畫其實跟我們目前賴總統當選人所提出的打造健康台灣的政策是一致的"},{"start":344.491,"end":373.03,"text":"這個其實就是很好的銜接所以我這次有機會會參與這個WHA的這個整個活動我們就希望把這樣的理念一起帶進來能夠讓社會努力的這些過程讓全球都可以看得到那我們也希望讓全球這些衛生界的領袖將來透過外交部的幫忙之下還有透過這個醫療外交的情形之下請他們來台灣看我們台灣到底做了多進步"},{"start":373.55,"end":399.581,"text":"我們如何能夠把我們的制度把我們的努力也讓全球看得到那這部分不知道還沒有其他的補充不敢我覺得我們過去這段時間在全球衛生上面的這個貢獻應該是社會大眾應該是國際社會都看到了所以國際社會在看待我們的那個公衛的這個處理他們都把我們當成模範生所以這個是我們感到非常驕傲的項目"},{"start":400.021,"end":425.461,"text":"我們也跟衛福部也不斷的在合作希望能夠跟其他的國家有更多的這些衛生的合作在過去這6年之間我擔任外交部長跟衛福部之間的這種關係是非常的緊密我們是負責去做連續去做溝通當作一個平台衛福部這邊不管是機關署或者是其他的單位他們就是專業"},{"start":426.522,"end":426.542,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c02685605ff9d03e6dad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c50c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"14:02:56 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14:13:01","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":605,"end_time":"2024-05-15T14:13:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T14:02:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1317,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（14時2分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長辛苦了，我實在是不忍心再請您起來發言。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒關係。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝。謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，您即將卸任，我過去雖然只有遞補一年立委，但其實之前在很多議題上也跟部長有一些接觸。我想要在您卸任之前送一本我自己非常喜歡的繪本，也呼應最近您在線上所有非常辛苦的議題，這本書的書名就叫做「人，你有權利」。部長，你看到這個書名，你會想到什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：我會想到我們臺灣人在國際社會上面被剝奪的那一些，但那個應該是我們的權利。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，謝謝部長，我們都沒有對過，但是你完全抓到我的重點。這本書，它的樣貌是繪本，是寫給兒童跟青少年看的。可是我們要知道，人的權利不是只有兒童跟青少年必須要學習，裡面有一段話，我想唸給部長聽，等一下再把這個書送給部長。這本書的內容是從世界人權宣言裡面節錄而來的，但是它化為一張一張的插圖，擷取裡面重要的片段，跟兒童、青少年溝通。也就是說，兒童跟青少年不只要知道這些權利是公民社會運作的基礎，基本上，孩子們也要知道他們的這些權利要被尊重。所以我們付出，但是我們要得到尊重。其中有一段話是這麼寫的：每個人都有權利擁有自己的私事、秘密、隱私，沒有正當理由，沒有獲得允許，不可以窺探別人的生活。部長，你聽完後有什麼感覺？"],["吳部長釗燮：privacy很重要，機密的這些東西也很重要。"],["陳委員培瑜：在個人的生活是這樣，對嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你應該有小孩吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果你的小孩把他的門關起來，說他需要一點個人的時間，你沒有敲敲門進去之前，你是不能隨便打開門進去的嘛！我相信你一定是一個……"],["吳部長釗燮：我不會intrude into his privacy。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信你一定是一個開明的父親。所以我們在個人的生活領域是這樣、在個人的學習領域是這樣，那部長您認為在公共事務的領域，我們是不是也要遵守這個原則？"],["吳部長釗燮：應該。"],["陳委員培瑜：它該是機密的，它有對話的機制、它有對話的平臺，它絕對不會沒有對話的空間。但是如果有人要冒犯這個機密的界線、跨過這條界線，做出令人匪夷所思的事情，部長你覺得我們怎麼跟國人交代？"],["吳部長釗燮：我覺得這個也是非常地重要啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["吳部長釗燮：我今天已經形容過一次，就是說好像街道上有紅綠燈，你如果覺得說這個紅綠燈你不想遵守，你闖紅綠燈的話，搞不好會造成一些交通的事故，那就不好了。甚至是造成交通的事故之後，回頭過來說這個紅綠燈不應該設置，那這樣子就是不好了。為了要維繫我們國家外交的利益，或者是國家的安全戰略利益等等，有些該列為機密的東西就應該被保守機密，我想這個是我們外交部處理一向的原則。","我們也知道要對立法院負責，也因此有一些項目我們就是分送給立法院，但是也會提醒說這個事情是「密」，在上面會蓋一個章是「密」。如果需要我們這邊來協助做說明的，我們也會協助來做說明，但是這一個規則已經有法律相關的規範在那邊，那我們就應該依照法律相關的規範來進行。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長的說明，你剛剛這段說明我絕對會單獨把它剪下來放在我們辦公室的影片上。為什麼我要這麼說？過往我在帶青少年讀書會，或者是在跟青少年溝通，身為一個公民，他必須要開始學習所謂的社會溝通。我們常常跟孩子們提到一個很重要的事情，就是部長您剛剛說的紅綠燈。孩子們都會問我為什麼要遵守框架？為什麼要遵守法律？為什麼不能做所有我想做的事情？我想做就是我想做，這是我的個人自由。但是，在法國的哲學系統裡面告訴很多青少年，在他們的兒童時期就開始告訴他們，所謂的自由是必須在保障每個人的自由情況下、在有框架底下，每個人才得以自由。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：也就是如果你不遵守紅綠燈，我要硬闖過去，我們就會發生車禍。車禍後，每個人就都沒有移動的自由了，對嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是在整個臺灣內部溝通的情勢上，如果有很多國人不瞭解這個狀況，我相信部長您在推動外交部的業務，或者是日後您到國安會，想必都會遇到更多的困難。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以非常謝謝部長您剛剛那個深入淺出的說法，因為確實我也跟我們家小孩討論到這件事情。我們接下來問下面一個問題。請看下一頁。臺灣遭中國惡意打壓，又沒有受邀參加WHA，國台辦瞎扯說「這是民進黨造成的」。我想部長你跟我不一樣，你應該沒有入黨？行政中立，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：我有入黨，但是在進入到外交部門之後，我跟同仁的約束就是說我會保持政黨中立，所以我就不去參加政黨的活動。"],["陳委員培瑜：行政中立？好，那我們來看一下。部長，我很好奇。就外交部的工作領域，到了4月，國民黨總召傅崐萁到中國北京市政府跟政協主席見面，我個人真的很好奇，你覺得他有沒有跟人家談到WHA的事情？或者是他有沒有談到任何跟外交、國防可能有疑義的事情？你們有在蒐集相關的訊息？"],["吳部長釗燮：我也很好奇，但是我沒有這些相關的資訊，其實我也很好奇。"],["陳委員培瑜：我個人真的非常好奇。所以您在回應國台辦說「臺灣沒有辦法參加WHA是民進黨所造成的」，部長，您說這是荒謬的言論，你要不要多說一點？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想我們臺灣沒有辦法參加世界衛生組織相關的活動，像世界衛生大會活動，只有一個原因：就是因為中國阻撓！尤其是中國透過扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議案的方式，來說明我們臺灣屬於中國，如果要參與的話，要透過中國。因為我們臺灣不接受臺灣是中國的一部分，所以沒有辦法參加。","他的這種說法是無法被接受的。尤其是他有時候還會對外面來說謊，說他已經在照顧我們臺灣人的健康、福利的這些權利，這個剛好是相反的。他透過打壓臺灣參與世界衛生大會或者是世界衛生組織活動的這些作為，影響到了我們臺灣所有人民健康福利的權利。我想對於中國的這種作為，我們必須要加以譴責，因為他影響到了我們2,350萬人民正當的權利、應該有的這個權利。"],["陳委員培瑜：我可不可以解讀成這是一種他們對我們的恐嚇跟威脅？"],["吳部長釗燮：恐嚇、威脅、法律戰。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得這件事情……那我再唸其中一頁給部長聽。"],["吳部長釗燮：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：這本書我一定會送給部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：它說，每個人都有權利安全地生活，沒有人可以威脅恐嚇別人。如果沒有正當理由，不可以剝奪他人的自由。部長，你覺得他們現在有正當理由嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：他們沒有正當理由，就是政治！就是政治！他們就是不希望臺灣能夠被國際社會所接納。委員剛剛唸的那一段，其實對我來講感觸非常地深。就是2003年的時候，我們臺灣遭逢SARS，臺灣的衛福部向世界衛生組織申請協助……到最後卻等到我們的和平醫院大爆發時，世界衛生組織才派4個專家到臺灣來。但是這4個專家到我們臺灣來，還奉世界衛生組織秘書處的要求，不能夠跟我們臺灣的衛生官員有任何的見面、接觸，或者是討論！可是中國的大使、外交官卻在國際社會上去宣稱說，他們在照顧臺灣人民的安全。我當時對國際媒體的反應，就是「It's a shameless lie.」。到目前為止，我的態度都是一致的，中國沒有在照顧我們，中國只有在阻擾我們。","我再說一個例子，讓大家回想一下。1998年的時候，臺灣遭逢腸病毒大流行，那時候我的小朋友非常小，學校、幼稚園很多都關起來了，游泳池不開了。要出去的話，小朋友是不適合帶出去的，小朋友被隨時教導說一直要洗手。可是像我上班回家，看到我小朋友還好好的時候，我那時候就會非常地感動，就是說我的小朋友是沒有受到影響的。可是去想像有很多受到影響的小朋友，就是因為世界衛生組織在中國的阻擾之下，沒有接受我們臺灣所提出的協助的要求來協助我們臺灣，才讓我們臺灣的人民生活在這種腸病毒的陰影之下。所以中國是我們參與世界衛生組織唯一的阻撓來源，這個事情必須要透過我們去結合更多的友盟國家，來協助我們參與。"],["主席：好，時間的關係，部長……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，但是讓我最後講完一句話。謝謝部長給我這麼多正向的回應，我絕對會把您的這些回應跟這些故事做為很重要、跟很多青少年溝通的媒介。因為對很多孩子來說，他們真的也很好奇我們的國家怎麼了？除了大人在為我們努力的之外，到底他們未來自己即將生活在這片土地上，他們有什麼願景、他們有什麼希望可以去想望大人目前正在為他們努力的？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王正旭委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.0853437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.199093749999999,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.56971875,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.227843750000002,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.62909375,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.26159375,"end":42.775343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.96096875,"end":61.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.06721875000001,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.03784375000001,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.95971875000001,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.56659375000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.70534375000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.50221875000001,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.47221875000001,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.55221875000001,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.66159375000001,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.39534375000001,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.09971875000001,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.75159375,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.61846875,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.18221875,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.17034375000003,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.49346875000003,"end":318.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.77909375,"end":318.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.66471875,"end":328.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.63784375,"end":330.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":339.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.85159375,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.96909375,"end":352.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.93784375,"end":418.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.34534375000004,"end":422.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.66534375000003,"end":424.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.21346875,"end":430.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.27596875,"end":445.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.51409375000003,"end":577.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.31159375000004,"end":472.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.56096875,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.1640937500001,"end":580.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.4597187500001,"end":605.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.289,"end":6.559,"text":"謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝請部長部長辛苦了我實在是不忍心再請您起來發言"},{"start":10.038,"end":35.666,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員部長您即將卸任了那我過去雖然只有地補一年但其實之前在很多議題上也跟部長有說有一些接觸那我想要在您卸任之前呢送一本我自己非常喜歡的繪本也呼應最近您在這個線上所有非常辛苦的議題這本書的書名就叫做人你有權力部長你覺得你看到這個書名你會想到什麼"},{"start":36.306,"end":59.127,"text":"我會想到我們台灣人在國際社會上面被剝奪的那些但是那個應該是我們的權利沒錯謝謝部長我們都沒有對過但是你完全抓到我的重點這本書它的樣貌是繪本它是寫給兒童跟青少年看的可是我們要知道所有人的權利這件事情不是只有兒童跟青少年必須要學習裡面有一段話我想念給部長聽等一下再把這個書送給部長是"},{"start":65.837,"end":89.327,"text":"這本書的內容是從世界人權宣言裡面結錄而來的但是呢它化為一張一張的插圖跟擷取裡面重要的片段跟兒童青少年溝通也就是說兒童跟青少年不只要知道有這些權利是公民社會運作的基礎基本上孩子們也要知道他們這些權利要被尊重所以我們付出然後但是我們要得到尊重其中有一段話是這麼寫的"},{"start":91.089,"end":112.345,"text":"每個人都有權利擁有自己的私事秘密隱私沒有正當理由沒有獲得允許不可以窺探別人的生活部長你聽完後有什麼感覺Privacy很重要那個機密的這些東西也很重要"},{"start":112.785,"end":139.261,"text":"在個人的生活是這樣對嗎部長你應該有小孩嗎有如果你的小孩把他的門關起來說他需要一點個人的時間那你沒有敲敲門進去之前你是不能隨便打開門進去的嗎我相信你一定是一個我相信你一定是一個開明的父親所以我們在個人的生活領域是這樣在個人的學習領域是這樣那部長您認為在公共事務的領域我們是不是也要遵守這個原則"},{"start":140.322,"end":140.943,"text":"部長你覺得我們怎麼跟國人交代?"},{"start":155.935,"end":171.381,"text":"我覺得這個也是非常的重要啦我今天已經形容過一次就是說好像那個街道上有紅綠燈那你如果覺得說這個紅綠燈你不想遵守你闖紅綠燈的話搞不好會造成一些交通的這個事故那就不好了"},{"start":171.946,"end":193.386,"text":"那甚至是造成那個交通的事故之後回頭過來說這個紅綠燈不應該設置那這樣子就是不好的為了要維繫我們國家的這個外交的這個利益或者是國家的安全戰略利益等等有些該列為機密的這些東西就應該被保守機密那我想這個是我們外交部的處理的一項的這個原則"},{"start":194.807,"end":218.801,"text":"那我們也知道說要對那個立法院這邊要負責也因此有一些項目我們就是分送給立法院但是也會提醒說這個事情是密在上面會蓋一個章是密那如果說需要我們這邊來做協助說明的那我們也會協助來做說明但是這一個規則已經有法律相關的規範在那邊那我們就應該依照法律相關的規範來進行"},{"start":220.242,"end":245.283,"text":"好,謝謝部長的說明你剛剛這段說明我絕對會單獨把它剪下來放在我們辦公室的影片上為什麼我要這麼說過往我在帶青少年讀書會或者是在跟青少年溝通所謂身為一個公民他必須要開始學習所謂社會溝通我們常常跟孩子們提到一個很重要的事情就是部長您剛剛說的紅綠燈孩子們都會問我為什麼要遵守框架為什麼要遵守法律"},{"start":245.823,"end":265.374,"text":"為什麼不能做所有我想做的事情我想做就是我想做這是我的個人自由但是在法國的哲學系統裡面告訴很多青少年在他們的兒童時期就開始告訴他們所謂的自由是必須在保障每個人的自由情況下在有框架底下每個人才得以自由"},{"start":265.734,"end":267.916,"text":"所以非常謝謝部長您剛那個深入淺出的說法因為確實我也跟我們家小孩討論到這件事情那我們接下來問下面一個問題來下一頁"},{"start":296.469,"end":314.747,"text":"臺灣遭中國惡意打壓．又沒有受邀參加WHA國台辦瞎扯說這是民進黨造成的我想部長你跟我不一樣你應該沒有入黨行政中立對不對我有入黨但是在進入到外交部門之後我跟同仁的約束就是說我會保護"},{"start":315.247,"end":316.849,"text":"國民黨總召傅昆齊到中國北京市政與政協主席見面"},{"start":331.01,"end":352.176,"text":"你覺得他有沒有跟人家談到WHA的事情或者是他有沒有談到跟任何外交、國防可能有異議的事情你有沒有在蒐集相關的訊息我沒有相關的這些資訊我個人真的非常好奇所以您在回應這個國台辦說台灣沒有辦法參加WHA是民進黨所造成的部長您說這是荒謬的言論你要不要多說一點"},{"start":353.467,"end":374.285,"text":"我想我們台灣沒有辦法參加世界衛生組織相關的這些向世界衛生大會的這個活動只有一個原因就是因為中國阻撓那尤其是中國透過扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議案的方式來說明我們台灣屬於中國所以如果說要參與的話要透過中國"},{"start":375.286,"end":400.9,"text":"因為我們台灣不接受台灣是中國的一部分所以沒有辦法參加所以他的這種說法是無法被接受的尤其是他有時候還會對外面來說謊說他已經在照顧我們台灣人的健康福利的這些權利這個是剛好是相反的他透過打壓台灣參與世界衛生大會或者是世界衛生組織活動的這些作為"},{"start":401.86,"end":402.06,"text":"恐嚇、威脅、法律戰"},{"start":425.693,"end":444.744,"text":"這本書我一定會送給部長他說每個人都有權利安全的生活沒有人可以威脅恐嚇別人如果沒有正當理由不可以剝奪他人的自由部長你覺得他們現在有正當理由嗎"},{"start":445.558,"end":462.051,"text":"他們沒有正當理由就是政治就是政治他們就是不希望台灣能夠被國際社會所接納那委員剛剛念的那一段其實對我來講這個感觸非常的深就是2003年的時候我們台灣遭逢SARS"},{"start":462.831,"end":475.916,"text":"我們臺灣的衛福部向世界衛生組織去申請協助到最後一定要等到我們的和平醫院大爆發的時候世界衛生組織才會派4個專家到我們臺灣來但是這4個專家到我們臺灣來還奉世界衛生組織秘書處的要求"},{"start":482.679,"end":512.102,"text":"不能夠跟我們台灣的這個衛生官員有任何的見面接觸或者是討論那可是中國的這種大使外交官卻在國際社會上面去宣稱說他們在照顧台灣人民的這個安全那我對國際媒體當時對國際媒體的反應就是說It's a shameless lie那到目前為止我的態度都是一致的中國沒有在照顧我們中國只有在阻撓我們那我再說一個例子讓大家那個回想一下"},{"start":517.644,"end":532.31,"text":"1998年的時候我們台灣也遭逢了那個長病毒的大流行那時候我小朋友非常的小那學校幼稚園很多都關起來了游泳池不開了那要出去的話那個小朋友是不適合帶出去的"},{"start":532.85,"end":558.438,"text":"那小朋友被隨時要教導說要一直要洗手一直要洗手那可是像我上班回家看到我小朋友還好好的時候我那時候就會非常的感動就是說我的小朋友是沒有受到影響的可是去想像有很多受到影響的這些小朋友就是因為世界衛生組織在中國的阻擾之下沒有接受我們台灣所提出的這個協助的要求"},{"start":559.198,"end":559.218,"text":"好"},{"start":578.226,"end":578.286,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152554","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c003e4ec5df299e72dad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c5e5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"13:52:18 - 14:02:40","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":622,"end_time":"2024-05-15T14:02:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T13:52:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1284,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（13時52分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長辛苦了，今天從9點到現在都還沒有休息。今天我本來是因為您在立法院最後一次備詢，所以想來表達支持跟肯定。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：但是因為聽了早上徐巧芯委員質詢的議題，我覺得有些風向被亂帶，真的不是很好。那您今天一直有提到CHTI，據我的了解，第一個，捷克是一個民主國家，我自己曾經因為開IPAC會議而到捷克，知道部長對捷克的用心跟成果非常高，而且捷克是民主國家，內部就有一定的監督機制。另一方面，我剛剛也有看到新聞提到捷克的烏克蘭重建特使Tomáš Kopečný有特別解釋，CHTI是捷克政府指定的有經驗、有公信力的NPO，不知道部長是不是能夠澄清一下外界的這些謠言？譬如說，這個案子涉及多少臺商，與多少臺商合作？目前採購的情況如何？還有為什麼是CHTI這個組織？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，也非常謝謝委員對我們外交部的期許。我們跟捷克之間的關係的確是非常深厚，尤其是我個人在臺灣與捷克的關係上面也下了很多工夫，我也很高興看到捷克政府，尤其是參議院，也認可了我在臺捷關係方面的貢獻，所以他們頒給我一個勳章，這個就是捷克參議長送給我勳章的勳表，我隨時戴著，也跟我自己講說，臺灣與捷克的關係對我們來講是非常的重要，我要隨時來捍衛，來強化我們臺灣跟捷克的關係。CHTI這個機構是一個nonprofit organization，很容易上網去看到這個nonprofit organization的宗旨，它跟捷克很多政府部門有非常深厚的合作關係，不管是外交部、經濟部、衛福部等等。最主要的原因就是CHTI這個nonprofit organization在很多援助方面的執行成果非常卓著，因此，當我們跟捷克的政府討論到，希望能夠透過雙邊的合作，來協助烏克蘭的時候，他們也非常高興，這一個機構就是the most reputable, the most creditable institution，所以我們就跟捷克政府擇定這個機構，來作為我們去援助烏克蘭的一個指定的機構。我們也瞭解到，雙邊都需要有一個監督的機制，因此成立了一個由雙邊政府成立的監督機制，透過這個監督機制，來監督CHTI對外援助的成果。另外，他們也必須要跟我們提交期中報告，來說明他們所做的成果。這個是最主要的回答委員剛剛所說的問題。","另外，今天早上也有一些委員提到，為什麼烏克蘭提出的這些需求清單，不能夠提供給我們……"],["范委員雲：對，還有人提說要依據我國政府採購法。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["范委員雲：據我瞭解，CHTI本來就會依據捷克跟歐盟的採購法規嘛。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯，沒有錯，沒有錯。"],["范委員雲：關於為什麼不能請烏克蘭提出需求清單，我想部長也可以說明一下，至少據我的瞭解，烏克蘭、臺灣、中國和俄國之間的關係是相當敏感的。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯。"],["范委員雲：這些烏克蘭的國會議員都會表達，那部長可以解釋一下嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯，雖然說我們跟少數的烏克蘭的NGO或一部分的國會議員有聯繫，有關係，他們也知道我們在協助他們。他們也有一些local government有對外的需求，但是涉及到中央政府的權責的話，他們中央政府還是非常關注中國可能的態度，因為中國可能的態度會影響到俄羅斯對他們的侵略。也因此，我們必須要去透過一個中介的國家，而且是跟我們非常友好的國家，像捷克對我們這麼友好，他們能夠派像CHTI這樣的機構深入到當地，去瞭解他們實際的需求，然後來做必要的採購。到目前為止，他們已經拍了一個短短的video，跟各界講說，這些東西就是捷克跟臺灣合作所呈現的成果；如果要用採購法的話，這個絕對是not applicable，因為它是捷克的一個單位，那他們那邊要買，絕對是需要符合當地的法規，也要符合歐盟的非常高標準的相關規範。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長的說明。我想捷克是個民主國家，然後它必須遵守歐盟的採購相關規範，這個部分的公信力，我是非常相信，而且烏克蘭的狀況，我透過IPAC接觸過的烏克蘭的國會議員，我知道他們對所謂的臺中或是中臺關係是非常謹慎的，所以我非常支持部長的做法，經由第三國來做，而且捷克跟我們相當有信任關係了。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯。委員剛剛提到IPAC，真的是要非常的感謝。IPAC是一個非常重要的由民主國家所成立的議會間的組織，在我們的努力之下，7月下旬IPAC就會來到我們臺灣，召開一個大會，這個對我們臺灣來講，就是一個非常重要的機會，讓我們臺灣能夠呈現給國際組織，也讓國際組織能夠實際上到臺灣，展現對臺灣的支持，所以要謝謝委員在這方面的努力。"],["范委員雲：哪裡，外交部也一起努力。我之所以代表臺灣，是因為當時本院只有時代力量跟民進黨有派代表，過去民眾黨跟國民黨一直不願意派代表，不過他們現在在IPAC這個部分好像有一些突破，我也謝謝大家一起努力。IPAC現在好像已經有超過150個國會議員參與了，那真的是非常重要的網絡，所以在這部分真的是需要大家多方努力。","其實我今天也想跟部長談一下，就是我從擔任無任所大使起，就接受外交部的協助。剛剛講的、您跟吳思瑤委員講到婦女權益的部分，我們就透過我們的駐美代表，參與了CSW的一個平行NGO的論壇。當時我也以臺灣的婦女參政為題，做了一個報告，有非常多我們友邦的大使到場。另外就是國會外交的部分，我們也去了英國、比利時、德國，還有後來的捷克，還有參加IPAC哥本哈根的democracy summit，還有印度的瑞辛納對話，我非常的榮幸有機會代表我們臺灣參加。我真的非常肯定外交部第一線工作者的努力，而且我認為部長任內指派的大使非常奮力做各種外交，從剛剛講的公共外交，到針對國會、針對政府部門的外交，真的非常努力。我也觀察到一件事情，因為我常常需要對外發言，所以我非常仔細看了部長您的訪問，幾乎所有在YouTube上您接受國際媒體訪問的影片，我都有認真聽。我想問部長，您是不是我們所有的外交部長中接受最多國際媒體採訪的一位部長？"],["吳部長釗燮：在這一方面，我覺得非常自豪。就是說，當我們沒有新聞局之後，國家的發言人照說就應該要由外交部長來擔任；自從我接任外交部長之後，有很多的國際媒體希望能夠聽到臺灣的聲音，每一次有人要找，我一定都接受，一定來安排，這個是我覺得我對臺灣必要去做的一個任務，讓全世界都能夠聽到我們臺灣的聲音。到目前為止，已經有328場，這個禮拜五是我工作的最後一天，我還要接受另外一家媒體的訪問。我覺得這個事情是不能停的，因為我們臺灣的聲音要被國際社會所聽聞，外交部長或駐外大使對外發言，代表臺灣來發言，這個是一個非常重要的工具。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。因為我曾經受外交部邀請，寫了一篇從利益外交到價值外交的文章，登在你們的刊物上，我也很高興賴清德準總統最近說未來就是價值外交的路線。因為時間的緣故，我個人是非常肯定吳部長任內外交的成果，雖然兩岸關係緊張，可是我們的外交關係可以發展到最高峰，我認為您功不可沒。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：您真的戮力而為，率領整個團隊。我也想藉這時間請問，如果有一件事，是您的遺憾，您希望下一任部長努力去做的，你會說是哪一件工程您還沒有做完，希望他奮力去努力的呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我有跟他提到目前在進行的項目，我相信他也非常瞭解，很多持續性的東西，他應該是可以持續地來進行。因為外交很多都是機密的項目，所以我在這邊就不方便跟委員來說明。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。好，那我也非常肯定，外交就是有為有守，該守密的部分，所有的人，不分立委、公民，都應該守密；該積極進取的部分，不管是公共外交、價值外交，我覺得在吳部長任內這條路線是走出臺灣的一條路。那再一次謝謝吳部長的辛勞。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，我會繼續努力。"],["范委員雲：未來你們在國安的議題上，我們大家一起繼續加油，感謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：我會繼續努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳培瑜委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.72659375,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.61596875,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.54221875,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.88971875000001,"end":186.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":211.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.09909375,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.32096875000002,"end":233.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.21909375,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.83846875,"end":234.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.28971875000002,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.86596875,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.95846875,"end":316.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.77471875000003,"end":344.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.51846875,"end":338.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.60596875000005,"end":346.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.17096875000004,"end":346.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.54221875,"end":377.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.25034375,"end":351.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.02659375,"end":352.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.64221875000004,"end":354.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.13659375000003,"end":484.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.13659375000003,"end":404.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.80284375,"end":407.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.96784375000004,"end":535.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.38909375,"end":517.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.52534375,"end":574.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.63534375,"end":561.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.86096875,"end":597.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.06846875,"end":619.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.76596875,"end":616.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.45346875,"end":618.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.02284375,"end":620.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.0647187500001,"end":621.57096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.809,"end":1.029,"text":"范國威議員"},{"start":25.137,"end":51.622,"text":"聽了早上徐巧欣委員質詢的議題我覺得有些風向被亂帶真的不是很好您今天一直有提到CHTI據我的了解第一個捷克是個民主國家我自己曾經因為開iPad會議我們到捷克知道我們部長對捷克用心跟成果非常的高而且他的民主國家內部就有一定的監督機制"},{"start":52.122,"end":54.983,"text":"在另一方面,我剛剛有看到新聞,捷克的烏克蘭重建特使科佩尼奇尼有特別解釋了一下CHTI是他們"},{"start":68.45,"end":86.183,"text":"捷克政府指定的有經驗有公信力的NPO所以我想不知道部長是不是能夠澄清一下其實外界的這些謠言比如說我們這個案子涉及多少台商與多少台商合作那目前採購的情況如何還有為什麼是這個CHTI這個組織這樣"},{"start":89.992,"end":105.014,"text":"非常謝謝委員那也非常謝謝委員對我們外交部的這個期許那的確我們跟那個捷克之間的關係是非常的深厚尤其是我個人在台灣捷克的這個關係上面也下了很多的功夫"},{"start":105.835,"end":128.742,"text":"我也很高興捷克政府尤其是參議院他也認可了我在台捷關係方面的這個貢獻所以他們頒給我一個勳章這個就是捷克參議長送給我勳章的這個勳表那我隨時帶著也跟我自己講說臺灣捷克的關係對我們來講是非常的重要我要隨時來捍衛來強化我們臺灣跟捷克的這個關係"},{"start":132.544,"end":148.865,"text":"CHTI這個機構是一個non-profit organization很容易上網去看到這個non-profit organization他們自己的這個宗旨那他跟捷克的很多的政府部門是有非常深厚的這種合作的關係不管是外交部經濟部衛福部等等的"},{"start":149.406,"end":174.6,"text":"那最主要原因就是說這個CHTI這個nonprofit organization他在很多的這些援助方面的這個執行的成果非常的這個著重因此當我們跟捷克的政府討論到就是說希望能夠透過雙邊的合作來協助烏克蘭人協助烏克蘭人的時候他們也非常的高興就是說這個機構就是the most reputable"},{"start":176.983,"end":184.352,"text":"所以我們就跟捷克政府責定了這個機構來作為我們去援助烏克蘭的一個指定的機構"},{"start":186.616,"end":210.834,"text":"我們也了解到就是說要對那個雙邊都需要有一個監督的這個機制也因此成立了一個雙邊政府所成立的一個監督的這個機制透過這個監督的機制來監督這個CHTI對外援助的這個成果那另外他們也必須要跟我們那個提交其中報告來說明他們所做的這些成果"},{"start":212.488,"end":232.294,"text":"這個是最主要的回答委員剛剛所說的另外今天早上也有一些委員提到就是說為什麼烏克蘭提出的這些需求清單還有人提說要依據什麼我國政府採購法據我了解這個CHDI它本來就會依據捷克跟歐盟的採購法規嗎沒有錯"},{"start":235.376,"end":251.015,"text":"關於烏克蘭為什麼不能請烏克蘭提出需求清單我想部長也可以說明一下至少我的了解烏克蘭臺灣中國這些其實俄國這關係是相當敏感的烏克蘭的國會議員都會表達那部長可以解釋一下嗎雖然說我們跟少數的那個烏克蘭"},{"start":251.596,"end":251.776,"text":"執行委員．范雲"},{"start":273.131,"end":273.151,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":302.162,"end":315.72,"text":"如果說要用那個採購法的話這個絕對是not applicable因為他是捷克的一個單位那他們那邊要買絕對是需要符合當地的這個法規也要符合歐盟的非常高標準的這個相關的規範"},{"start":317.497,"end":342.392,"text":"謝謝部長的說明我想捷克是個民主國家然後他必須遵守歐盟的相關的規範採購我想這個部分的公信力我是非常的相信而且烏克蘭的狀況以我透過iPad接觸過的烏克蘭的國會議員我知道他們對所謂的台中或者中台關係是非常謹慎的所以我非常支持就是部長的做法經由第三國而且捷克跟我們相當有信任關係了"},{"start":343.433,"end":362.602,"text":"那個委員剛剛提到IPAC真的是要非常的感謝啦就是IPAC是一個非常重要的那個民主國家所成立的一個議會間的組織那在我們的努力之下7月下旬的時候這個IPAC就會來到我們台灣召開一個大會"},{"start":363.542,"end":391.076,"text":"那這個對我們台灣來講就是一個非常重要的一個機會讓我們台灣能夠呈現給這個國際組織也讓國際組織能夠實際上到台灣來展現對台灣的支持所以要謝謝委員在這方面的努力哪裡我想這個外交部也一起努力我代表台灣就是因為我們的其他的就是只有時代力量跟民進黨有派代表那過去民眾黨跟國民黨一直不願意派代表不過他們現在好像有些突破所以IPAD這個部分"},{"start":391.536,"end":406.666,"text":"那也謝謝大家一起的努力喔那我想因為iPad我們台灣能夠有他現在好像已經有就好像超過150個國會議員參與了那真的是非常重要的網絡那所以這部分真的是多方努力啦"},{"start":407.066,"end":424.838,"text":"其實我今天也想跟部長談一下就是我從擔任無人所大使那就接受外交部的協助剛剛講的您跟吳釗委員講到婦女權益的部分我們就再透過就是我們的駐美的代表的部分那參與了CSW的一個平行NGO的論壇"},{"start":426.439,"end":450.695,"text":"當時我也對臺灣的婦女參政做了一個報告那非常多我們友邦的大使到那另外就是國會外交的部分我們也去了英國、比利時、德國還有後來的捷克還有參加IPEC哥本哈根的Democracy Summit還有印度的瑞辛娜對話我非常的榮幸有機會代表我們臺灣參加那我真的非常肯定外交部第一線"},{"start":451.656,"end":469.333,"text":"工作者的努力而且我認為部長任內指派的大使非常的奮力做各種外交從剛剛講的公共外交到就是說針對國會針對政府部門的真的非常的努力那我也觀察到一件事因為我常常需要對外就是發言"},{"start":469.813,"end":482.837,"text":"所以我非常仔細看了部長您幾乎YouTube上所有接受國際媒體的訪問我都有認真聽那我想問部長您是不是我們所有的外交部長中接受最多國際媒體採訪的一位部長"},{"start":485.394,"end":504.12,"text":"在這方面我覺得非常的自豪就是說當我們沒有新聞局之後那國家的發言人照說就應該要有外交部長來擔任那自從我接任外交部長之後有很多的國際媒體希望能夠聽到台灣的聲音每次有人要找我一定都接受一定來安排"},{"start":504.92,"end":523.975,"text":"這個是我覺得我對台灣的這一個必要去做的一個任務讓全世界都能夠聽到我們台灣的聲音那到目前為止已經有328場那這個禮拜五這個禮拜五我工作的最後一天我還要接受另外一家媒體的這個訪問那我覺得說這個事情是不能停的"},{"start":524.155,"end":550.494,"text":"因為我們台灣的聲音要被國際社會所聽聞那外交部長或者是說我們駐外的大使對外發言代表台灣來發言那這個是一個非常重要的工具好 謝謝喔因為我曾經受外交部邀請寫了一篇從利益外交到價值外交的文章登在你們的刊物上我也很高興我們賴清的準中最近就說外來就是價值外交的路線那因為時間的緣故那我個人是非常肯定喔"},{"start":550.874,"end":574.709,"text":"就是吳部長任內我們外交的成果讓我們的外交雖然兩岸關係緊張可是外交關係可以發展到最高峰我認為您就是功不可沒那真的陸力而為率領整個團隊那我也想藉著時間請問您對下一任部長如果有一件事是您的遺憾希望他努力的您會說是哪一件功成您還沒有做完希望他奮力去努力的部分呢"},{"start":575.81,"end":595.224,"text":"我有跟他提到說目前在進行的這些項目我相信他也非常的了解就是說很多持續性的這些東西他應該是可以持續的來進行那因為外交很多都是機密的這些項目那在這邊就不方便跟委員來說說明這樣子"},{"start":596.325,"end":619.445,"text":"了解,那我也非常肯定外交就是有為有守該守密的部分我們是說所有人不分立委公民都應該守密那該積極進取的部分不管是公共外交價值外交我覺得在吳部長任內這條路線是走出台灣的一條路那再次謝謝吳部長的辛勞那未來您在國安的議題上我們大家一起繼續加油,感謝會繼續努力,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c00087932b0bafb2c6ad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c594885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:41:28 - 13:51:53","影片長度":"00:10:25","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":625,"end_time":"2024-05-15T13:51:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T13:41:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1207,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時41分）楊瓊瓔發言，謝謝主席。想邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。第77屆的WHA從5月27日到6月1日在瑞士日內瓦舉行，我們從2009年開始，連續8年是以觀察員的身分出席WHA，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是全國民眾都非常期待的。但是我們又看到，從2017年開始我們就沒有再獲邀請，為什麼呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是因為中國的阻撓。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是這個理由？只有這個原因？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是這個理由。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：世界衛生組織改稱，邀臺灣與會需先取得各會員國的同意，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：世界衛生組織是這麼說的，我們也儘量爭取友盟國家，像美國、日本等國家來支持我們。過去這段時間，也有越來越多的友盟國家、理念相近國家出來力挺我們，而且是透過各種不同的方式挺我們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，這部分我們也非常讚許，有各種國家相挺。就像美國國務卿布林肯，他在5月初，就是這個月初，也發表希望臺灣以觀察員身分參與第77屆世界衛生大會，申明強力鼓勵世界衛生組織能夠恢復邀請臺灣以觀察員身分參加WHA。"],["吳部長釗燮：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們也很清楚，其中還有緊箍咒，就是他們必須取得各會員國的同意，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這是譚德賽說的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。所以在這樣的情況之下，我們有什麼有效的策略能夠參與？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常坦承的向委員報告，在世界衛生組織裡面，有一個很大的voting block，其實就是global source，這是跟著中國走的。我們要走一條比較長遠的道路，就是需要吸引更多自由民主國家支持我們。過去這段時間，支持我們的國家越來越多，我們必須繼續努力下去，爭取更多國家協助我們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對於外交部的努力，我們給予肯定。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是以部長的身分來說，其實我們還有其他的方式可以努力，如果這個部分沒有辦法解決，人民的期待會落空。你看人民多勇敢，即使我們沒有辦法進入會場，即使我們沒有辦法得到邀請，仍舊有很多國人到場外支持，到場外舉廣告牌、吶喊，這就是我們臺灣人的精神嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果是這樣的話，除了民眾、民間的部分，大家要全力支持，行政部門還有什麼方案？如果只說我們要做長遠的努力、要怎麼樣，但是實際上沒有辦法去解決這個問題，那怎麼辦呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：真的非常感謝委員對我們參與世界衛生組織的關心，畢竟這個涉及到我們全國國民健康的安全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，尤其我們又是在全世界衛生組織裡各階層最嚴密的。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，也是表現非常好的。有三個方式，跟委員說明一下，第一個就是透過世界衛生大會開會期間，我們去安排雙邊會議，讓我們國家跟其他國家的衛生官員關係能夠更加緊密。第二個是透過我們的專家學者，甚至是官員，去參加世界衛生組織相關的會議及專家會議，目前我們被接受的程度是越來越高的，比例不斷上升。第三個是要澈底打破中國在國際社會上封鎖我們，關鍵就是第2758號決議案。我想委員一定有看到美國的副助理國務卿跟助理國務卿針對這個事情都有強烈的發言，而且美國會協助我們去爭取更多的理念相近國家接受美國的看法，讓中國在國際社會上面封鎖我們的法律戰能夠獲得破解，這是三個我們在努力的方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席願意給你時間，讓你一貫式地說明清楚你們的作為，但是我們再回頭看。美、日、歐對我們的支持，我們感謝，我們也一直在努力；但是兩岸的和平交流似乎也是一個非常重要的關鍵點？"],["吳部長釗燮：我贊成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們朝這個方向嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我非常贊成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常贊成嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，我們的態度及我們自己的政策，就是我們歡迎兩岸能夠有這種和平的對話，那我們這邊也不會挑釁，但是涉及到我們自己的立場的話，我們會很穩定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。所以我也很歡喜聽到部長你在520之前說出了這番話！也就是兩岸的和平對談、兩岸的和平交流，我們也不挑釁，這個絕對是對我們整個在外交方面是有很大的一個幫助嘛，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。這是我們的態度，一向是我們的態度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是我們的態度嘛？"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，也認同本席所說的，這是有所幫助的。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以在這樣的情況之下，我們朝這個方向，但是我們又看到，目前我們的邦交國是有幾國啊？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們是12個邦交國。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：幾個啊？"],["吳部長釗燮：12個。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：12個？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那最近發生的事情，好像跟我們自己預估的樣態不太一樣嘛，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：委員是提哪一個？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國家對國家。"],["吳部長釗燮：諾魯？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。我都不忍心講出來。"],["吳部長釗燮：諾魯的狀況是因為他們跟中國談的部分涉及到他們自己的一些資金。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在要斷交之前，你們有研判已經要斷交嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們有知道。我們有知道那個狀況，而且……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們有知道那個時間點嗎？有掌控住嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們有知道那個時間點，尤其是在選舉最敏感的那個時間點，的確是我們所掌握的，我們也知道他們為什麼需要做這些事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，辛苦了。再請問，外界又有猜測對海地跟瓜地馬拉的外交有可能生變，有這種訊息嗎？民眾好緊張耶，有嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告，其實最近我有說過幾次，包括今天早上在委員會會議裡面已經有說過，就是說，我們有一個友邦是長期有內部的紛擾，這個是我們長期的隱憂，雖然最近這段時間、在短中程期間，因為我們對他們的協助，所以邦交沒有問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛本席所請教的海地跟瓜地馬拉……"],["吳部長釗燮：不是瓜地馬拉，瓜地馬拉沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席待會再跟你討論你現在講的這個問題。本席所提問的與海地跟瓜地馬拉的邦交目前都正常吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，目前沒有問題，尤其是瓜地馬拉，目前是狀況還不錯，海地也沒有問題，但是海地目前就是內部陷入紛擾，這個是我們很擔心的，我們持續關注。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，也要持續關注。","接下來本席要請教巴拉圭的部分。巴拉圭是大豆跟牛肉出口最大的國家，甚至在全球大豆出口是排名第四，牛肉是第八，在這樣的情況之下，隔壁的巴西跟阿根廷會不會有所影響？"],["吳部長釗燮：不會。巴拉圭跟我們關係很好，520的時候，Pena總統會親自來參加，大家看到他的時候，你就知道我們的關係是非常好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以請大家放心，因為巴拉圭跟我們長期是友邦，所以我們買他們的大豆和牛肉。"],["吳部長釗燮：我們買了他們很多的牛肉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊。所以我告訴你目前巴拉圭出口占全球多少。有人有所質疑，但是我們希望我們要謹慎，嚴陣以對，所以在這樣的情況之下，部長，你的努力大家有看到。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們面對現在剩下12個邦交國的處境，在這樣的情況之下，你對新政府上任的外交大方向，有什麼期勉嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，過去這一段時間，我們的確在邦交國的部分是面臨很大的壓力，但是在這些壓力之下，我們必須要去努力開拓我們臺灣的國際空間，我們跟美國、歐洲很多國家、日本、澳洲等國的關係都有長足的進展，尤其是國際社會只要有高峰會的時候，他們一定會提到臺灣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要給新政府外交系統什麼樣的建議？"],["吳部長釗燮：我有跟後任的外交部長說明目前的外交方向，我相信等他上任之後他也會去考慮，看除了這個方向之外，是不是還有其他我們可以開拓的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以美日歐當然對我們很重要，我們現在的邦交國也要維持，不能忽略，但是最重要的是整個國際組織跟多邊的經濟整合，這個非常的重要。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：雖然我們的碳稅在前一天宣布慢一年實施，但是大家還是很緊張，所以外交部要怎麼樣將資源平衡分配，這一點非常非常的重要。"],["吳部長釗燮：我們會努力，也會跟其他相關的機構來協調。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請羅明才委員，羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請牛煦庭委員，牛煦庭、牛煦庭委員不在。","請范雲委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.61159375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.320343750000003,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.58846875,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.140343750000003,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.15534375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.48409375,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.445968750000006,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.20096875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.774718750000005,"end":53.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.406593750000006,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.38221875,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.01534375,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.06596875000001,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.52159375000001,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.52409375,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.56596875000001,"end":119.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.34971875000001,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.12034375000002,"end":130.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.22159375,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.49221875,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.82034375,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.15784375,"end":162.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.77346875,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.16471875000002,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.07409375,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.24659375000002,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.92971875,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.12346875,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.47284375,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.85909375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.35221875000002,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.44784375,"end":229.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.32909375000003,"end":226.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.24409375000002,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.76721875,"end":291.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.91909375,"end":230.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.90096875,"end":293.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.71909375,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.54534375000003,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.86534375,"end":305.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.68784375,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.59471875,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.64471875000004,"end":312.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.31971875,"end":313.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.44596875,"end":330.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.55534375,"end":318.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.32534375,"end":348.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.31409375000004,"end":351.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.18721875,"end":356.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.79409375,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.87409375000004,"end":356.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.17784375,"end":362.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.02909375,"end":363.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.43409375000005,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.17221875,"end":365.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.89784375000005,"end":366.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.77534375000005,"end":366.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.79221875,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.22596875000005,"end":373.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.14971875000003,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.05659375000005,"end":378.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.80284375,"end":381.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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須先取得各國會員國的同意是嗎"},{"start":57.271,"end":73.878,"text":"世界衛生組織是這樣子講那我們也盡量爭取向這個有盟國家向美國日本等等的這些國家來支持我們那在過去這段時間也越來越多的這些有盟國家理念相近國家出來力挺我們透過各種不同的這個方式來挺我們"},{"start":75.054,"end":102.47,"text":"這是我們也非常讚許各種國家就像美國國務卿布林肯他5月初就在這個月他也發表了臺灣以觀察員身份參與第77屆世界衛生大會聲明強力的來鼓勵世界衛生組織能夠恢復邀請臺灣觀察員的身份參加WHA但是我們也很清楚"},{"start":103.905,"end":118.172,"text":"金箍罩在於他必須要有取得各會員國的同意是嗎這個是譚德塞說的對那所以在這樣的情況之下我們有什麼有效的策略能夠來參與"},{"start":121.508,"end":142.085,"text":"這邊非常坦誠的跟委員報告就是說在那個世界衛生組織裡面有一個很大的一個voting block其實就是Global South那這個是那個跟著中國走的那我們是要走一條比較長遠的道路就是需要去吸引更多的這些自由民主的這個國家來支持我們"},{"start":142.985,"end":169.493,"text":"在過去這段時間支持我們的這些國家是越來越多了那我們必須要長此以往繼續努力下去爭取更多的國家來協助我們所以如果我們聽到外交部這個努力我們給予這個肯定但是如果以部長您的身份認為我們還有其他的什麼方式如果這一個部分沒有辦法去解決似乎"},{"start":170.313,"end":198.764,"text":"人民的期待會落空你看人民多勇敢即使我們沒有辦法進入即使我們沒有辦法得到邀請仍舊還是很多的國人到場外去支持到場外去拿廣告單到場外去吶喊這就是我們台灣人的精神嘛那如果是這樣的話那在行政部門民眾的部分民間大家全力的支持"},{"start":199.324,"end":210.577,"text":"那我我們行政部門還有什麼的方案如果我們只有聽到說我要長遠要怎麼樣但是實際上沒有辦法去解決這個問題那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":212.906,"end":229,"text":"真的非常感謝委員對我們參與世界衛生組織的關心畢竟這個是涉及到我們全國的安全那個健康的安全對嘛尤其我們又是全世界在衛生組織裡頭可以說我們的各階層是最嚴密的"},{"start":230.602,"end":252.694,"text":"對那這個有三個方式跟委員說明一下第一個就是說透過在世界衛生大會的這個期間我們去安排雙邊的這個會議讓我們國家跟其他國家的那個衛生官員關係能夠更加緊密那第二個是透過我們的專家學者甚至是官員去參加世界衛生大會世界衛生組織相關的這些會議專家會議等等的"},{"start":256.556,"end":277.912,"text":"目前我們被接受的程度是越來越高的比例是不斷的上升第三個要徹底打破中國在國際社會上面封鎖我們關鍵就是2758號決議案我相信委員一定有看到美國的副助理國務卿跟助理國務卿針對這個事情都有強烈的發言而且美國會協助我們"},{"start":278.652,"end":279.553,"text":"之所以本席願意給你"},{"start":294.775,"end":294.955,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":314.782,"end":328.352,"text":"我非常的贊成我們的態度一向都是我們的態度我們自己的政策我們的態度就是我們歡迎那個兩岸能夠有這種和平的對話那我們這邊也不會挑釁但是涉及到我們自己立場的話我們會很穩定"},{"start":330.533,"end":348.196,"text":"當然所以我也歡喜聽到部長你在520之前說出了這番話也就是兩岸的和平對談兩岸的和平交流我們也不挑釁這個絕對是對我們整個在外交方面是有很大的一個幫助是嗎"},{"start":349.238,"end":362.074,"text":"這是我們的態度,一向都是我們的態度換句話說,也認同本席所說的,這是有所幫助的所以在這種情況之下,我們朝這個方向但是我們又看到目前我們的邦交國是有幾國?"},{"start":363.609,"end":378.456,"text":"我們是12個邦交國幾個啊12個那最近發生的這個事情好像跟我們自己預估的這個這個樣態不太一樣是嗎那個委員是提哪一個最近"},{"start":379.878,"end":381.519,"text":"在要斷交之前你們有研判已經要斷交嗎?我們有知道那個時間點尤其是在選舉的那個最敏感的時間點的確是我們所掌握的"},{"start":405.959,"end":413.94,"text":"那我們也知道說他們為什麼需要做這些事情那外界又有猜測海地跟瓜地馬拉"},{"start":415.051,"end":441.059,"text":"有這種訊息嗎?民眾好緊張欸有嗎?跟委員報告很緊張的其實我有最近有說過幾次包括今天早上在我們的那個委員會裡面已經有說過就是說我們有一個友邦他是長期的這個內部的這個紛擾那這個是我們的長期的隱憂那雖然說最近的這段時間在短中期間"},{"start":443.341,"end":454.763,"text":"我們對他們的協助所以邦交沒有問題不是瓜地馬拉瓜地馬拉沒有問題本席待會再跟你討論你現在講的這個問題就是本席所提問海地跟瓜地馬拉目前都正常吧"},{"start":455.249,"end":472.878,"text":"目前沒有問題,但是尤其是瓜地馬拉目前是狀況是還不錯啦吼那海地也沒有問題,但是海地就是目前就是內部陷入紛擾那這個是我們很擔心,也持續關注對,要持續關注接下來本先生要請教巴拉圭"},{"start":473.837,"end":503.443,"text":"巴拉圭是大豆跟牛肉出口最大的國家是他甚至占全球大豆是排名第四牛肉是第八喔在這樣的情況之下隔壁的巴西跟這個阿根廷那會不會有所影響不會那個巴拉圭跟我們關係很好那個520的時候那個貝納總統他會親自來參加那大家看到他的時候你就知道說我們的關係是非常好的"},{"start":504.421,"end":526.634,"text":"所以請大家放心因為他的大豆跟牛肉跟我們長期這麼有幫我們買了他們很多的這些牛肉當然啊所以我告訴你他是目前全球他出口多少那就是有人有所質疑但是我們希望我們要謹慎嚴正以對那所以在這樣的情況之下部長"},{"start":528.306,"end":542.36,"text":"你的努力大家有看到但是我們面對到我們現在剩下12個國家的邦交國那所以在這樣的情況之下你認為你要給期許新政府上任的外交大方向有什麼期免嗎?"},{"start":544.102,"end":570.051,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下就是說過去這段時間我們的確在邦交國的部分是面臨很大的壓力但是在這些壓力之下我們必須要去努力開拓我們台灣的這個國際空間那我們跟美國跟歐洲很多的國家跟日本跟澳洲等等的這些國家的關係都有長足的這個進展那尤其是國際社會只要有這種高峰會的時候他們一定會提到台灣"},{"start":570.931,"end":598.45,"text":"新的這個政府外交的系統裡頭我有跟後任的外交部長說明就是目前的這個外交的這個方向那我相信等他上任之後他也會去考慮看除了這個方向之外是不是還有其他我們可以開拓的目標所以美日歐當然對我們很重要我們現在的邦交國也維持不能忽略但最重要的是整個國際組織"},{"start":600.111,"end":600.131,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0473451ac94748abd96869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c5468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:48:41 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13:05:09","影片長度":"00:16:28","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":988,"end_time":"2024-05-15T13:05:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:48:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1067,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時48分）謝謝！麻煩請黃次長跟秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好！"],["黃次長謀信：委員好！"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位午安！最前面我還是先提一下，因為剛剛吳思瑤委員提到個案的部分，就是那個事情，我想我在這邊還是幫這些委員上一下法律課好了。我想這其實有一點是「欲加之罪，民進黨從未詞窮」，其實當天的狀況是我們有委員在討論是不是對於外交部提告徐巧芯的案子要叫外交部撤告，我則回說因為這個是屬於非告訴乃論之罪，只有告訴乃論可以撤告，非告訴乃論之罪的處理方式就是被告請告訴人或告發人具狀給檢察官不予追究，這不就是一般司法實務的處理模式嗎？我想在座很多法官、檢察官以前也是這樣處理的，所以我不了解說這個跟干預司法個案有什麼關係，我覺得他們把法律諮詢講成是司法干涉，這不是笨就是壞！我對王定宇委員還有吳思瑤委員就本件事情評論的見解是這樣。更何況外交部在這個案件中是屬於當事人，你請當事人去具狀表明不追究，這個跟政治力介入司法有什麼關係？其實我也是聽不懂。好吧！那就回到我剛剛那個結論，就是我覺得不是笨就是壞，我想他們應該也不會不懂這個道理，因為剛才吳委員有請教兩位這個問題，我就跟兩位說明一下狀況是這樣，這是一個很常見的司法實務的處理模式。","現在還是回歸到今天的主題有關特赦這個部分，我想請教一下，剛才你們已經有回復過其他委員，就是現在在任的蔡部長或是將來要接任的鄭部長目前都沒有接到府方的指示，對吧？"],["黃次長謀信：還沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：都還沒有嘛！那我先跟各位請教一下，假設今天真的有特赦的話，對沒收的部分會不會有影響？"],["黃次長謀信：跟各位委員報告，因為沒收既不是主刑也不是從刑，那我們特赦的範圍當然不會及於非刑的部分，所以它不會受到影響。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這是人民很關心的部分，所以我想透過法務部這邊跟大家說明一下，因為這個將來執行的話是法務部那邊要執行。我們看一下111年憲判字第18號其實已經講得非常清楚，沒收新制實質上是不真正溯及既往，也就是說它並不會說不能沒收，所以這邊要跟民眾說明一下，即使今天總統對陳水扁以前的案子進行特赦也不會影響到犯罪所得沒收，請問一下這個結論對嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝！尤其是憲判字第18號也有講到這個不法所得其實沒有信賴保護的問題，所以這個不會因為被特赦而去沒收。我再請教一下，目前你們有沒有研究一下社會上對於到底要不要特赦，大家的共識是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，特赦是總統特有的職權，所以如果總統沒有發動的話，我們要尊重總統的職權，我們不可能主動去做民意調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們有沒有先預做準備？既然有這個風聲出來。"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛答詢的時候其實有提到，法務部就任何相關的法律上爭議，我們幕僚作業上一定都會蒐集相關的意見或做法律上爭點的整理，包含今天特赦這個議題，因為社會矚目，之前也有媒體揭露，所以法務部事實上有做相關法制的整理是沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝！不好意思！我這兩天喉嚨不太舒服。這個部分可能也是要麻煩你們，我不知道說府方會不會請問你們對這個相關的建議，就是說依照以前曾經有過的特赦經驗，府方會不會去詢問法務部，請法務部提供相關的見解或是建議？"],["黃次長謀信：按照赦免法第六條規定，總統府的確是可以另轉本部做相關的研議，的確是可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：我這邊可能跟各位說明一個東西，其實對於陳水扁要不要特赦，我覺得當然是尊重總統的想法，但是我對於目前的制度比較有一點意見，因為陳水扁現在是保外就醫，剛剛羅智強委員也有提到，高雄監獄受刑人當初在搶槍自殺前，他們其實曾提出為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫，但是監所內有比他嚴重非常多的卻沒有辦法保外就醫的疑問，其實在司法面前應該人人平等，那這公平性到底在哪裡？法務部能不能就這部分說明一下？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，保外就醫是不是要展延的部分，法務部這38次的展延其實每一次都有按照我們內部或者法律規定來做展延，他必須要提出相關的醫院證明或我們相當的訪視報告，每3個月來展延。"],["吳委員宗憲：請問法務部是受這些醫療報告拘束還是參考？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這其實是臺中監獄交由矯正署來做決定的，其實也不是到法務部。"],["吳委員宗憲：矯正署是法務部底下的單位，那我請教一下，醫療報告是拘束矯正署還是參考？"],["黃次長謀信：當然是參考，是事實認定的基準之一。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實現在有個問題就是，如果是參考，那因為他現在客觀的狀況有時候沒有辦法讓民眾滿意，因為他可以上政論節目、可以上台演講、可以開直播，然後可以走來走去，這個讓人民覺得他跟我們想像中的病情嚴重到需要保外就醫還是有個差距，我剛先請教的前提是，這些醫生的醫療評估是拘束矯正署還是只是得參考？如果是得參考的話，那今天認定的責任就在貴部了。"],["黃次長謀信：按照我們相關的規定，他提出的醫療證明是申請展延的要件之一，至於判斷准否當然要由權責機關做決定，它只是要件之一，而不是拘束裁量的決定，當然不是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！但是我要回過頭提到我剛講的，真的！因為客觀事實上其實民眾有非常多的質疑，那你、我包括秘書長，我們都是司法官出身，其實我們應該都很討厭政治力介入司法，傷害司法的公平性，如果說今天在司法面前，因為他是前總統所以他的保外就醫標準就跟一般人不一樣，我想不止是一般人民不能接受，司法官出身的我們也不能接受！所以有人問到要不要給陳水扁特赦，我就說，與其讓他繼續傷害司法，不如總統你要特赦就自己去背政治責任，我甚至會覺得是這樣。但是我的論點還是覺得這個保外就醫就是讓人民沒辦法相信嘛！我自己看也覺得有點莫名其妙，這個是我表達我個人的意見，也不是國民黨的意見。","後面還有一個問題要請教，之前3月26號我在質詢的時候有問過部長一個問題，我對蔡部長提到死刑執行規則的訂定上好像有一點問題，當時部長是跟我承諾要去修改這個死刑執行規則，我不知道這個部分他有沒有修改？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，在憲法訴訟法修正之後，我們對執行死刑規則部分有做一些文字的修正，這個我們有公告了，我們有進行預告程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在3月26號質詢的時候提到，從死刑案件執行實施要點到執行死刑規則有一個但書沒有抄過來，當時部長跟我說這個部分他會修改，因為這個是法務部就可以改的，迄今為止兩個月過去了，我還是沒有看到法務部修正，我上網去看到的還是舊有的規定。"],["黃次長謀信：我是說這個規則有修改，但還沒有完成法規修改的程序，現在正進行預告程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這部分是已經修了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，因為法規修正有一定的立法作業程序，所以現在已經有在進行預告程序，預告程序完之後，我們要評估外界或民間的意見再決定如何的修正。"],["吳委員宗憲：請教次長，你的意思是說已經有著手在修了，只是還沒有完成？"],["黃次長謀信：有，甚至我們也聽了一些民間的意見，並找來廢死或反廢死團體表達對這個修正有什麼意見，後來我們決定一個版本之後我們就有預告，預告完之後當然又會有不同的意見出現，那法務部要再綜整所有的意見，再決定怎麼修這個條文。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長。因為很多人都說，司法權對於一個人下了死刑判決，法務部這邊本來應該要執行，但是它卻用規則裡面的一些東西去讓死刑執行一直延後、一直延後。我是希望不要讓外界認為我們沒有刪除死刑，但是我們卻用行政權去實質廢死，我希望法務部的作為不要讓外界有這個誤解，覺得法務部好像總是配合上面政治人物的想法，要達到實質廢死，所以我們條文不敢刪除死刑，那我就給你搞個實質上不執行死刑就好，所以已經好多年沒有執行死刑了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於這部分，事實上這個要點從民國94年就一直延續過來，我們沒有做實質的修正，後來因為監獄行刑法修正之後，我們跟著把它修正成為「執行死刑規則」，實質上的內容是沒有動的，所以不是說法務部近年才把它增加一些障礙不去執行死刑，這個要點從94年就一直到現在。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，次長，你可能沒有注意到3月26日我對於部長的質詢，再麻煩次長回去看一下326我對部長的質詢，我直接show給他看兩個的比較，部長也覺得這個有問題，他說好，他回去修改，他是這樣跟我說的，當天的錄影你們都還可以調出來看。","確實當時執行要點有一個但書沒有抄到執行死刑規則去，導致當事人他可以一直不停地聲請大法官解釋，而且同一個理由一直聲請也沒事，所以當時我就跟部長說這個要不要改掉？既然你現在已經都用「執行死刑規則」，那你是不是要把它加進去？部長當時跟我說好，但是我現在看了兩個月，還是沒有改這個部分，這個東西是法務部就可以處理的，不需要送到立法院三讀，所以可能要麻煩次長回去看一下，那一天……"],["黃次長謀信：瞭解，委員這個問題的意思我也充分了解，是不是同一原因的問題，讓死刑犯用同一原因不斷地來拖延執行死刑嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：對，因為……"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，我剛剛跟委員提的，我們做一些公民意見的時候，這個議題我們也討論過，民間也是有不同的意見，也是有。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我要跟你們講的就是，實施要點已經很清楚地說，同一原因不會讓死刑執行延後……"],["黃次長謀信：對，障礙性。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是在「執行死刑規則」的時候，這個但書不見了，沒有抄過來。那在我們以前念法律，舊法到新法如果有一個東西不見了，我們都認為造法者他是明示的這一個東西不要了，所以到新法的時候，它不會移植過來。所以當時我問部長，你們今天的意思是同一原因就會一直玩嗎？那部長也說好，他們回去會研擬，這個部分要修改。我今天是要問這個地方，因為到現在兩個月了，我看到法務部並沒有動作，再麻煩次長就這個部分來處理，我之後還是會繼續盯著這個部分。"],["黃次長謀信：好，這部分是109年監獄行刑法修正之後，的確，同一原因那個但書沒有把它抄進來，那當時有當時的時空背景，現在委員提到會不會因為同一原因造成聲請人不斷地來聲請，我剛才有跟委員報告，後來我們有不斷地尋求公民議事來解決這個問題，委員剛剛提的意見我們回去會再做處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就這樣，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：因為今天有很多委員對於陳水扁保外就醫展延38次的核准許可，都想要知道到底這38次核准是怎麼核准法，是不是可以請法務部提供這38次每次的許可函，以及相關的許可理由給我們委員會？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，刑事上的理由當然可以，不過內容因為涉及到特種個資，就是他個人的診斷證明，所以這部分如果涉及到特種個資的話，我就沒有辦法這樣做。刑事上的理由我們當然可以給貴委員會，這沒有問題。"],["主席：這是屬於眾所矚目的案子，跟公益有關，所以我希望你們還是可以提供。"],["黃次長謀信：在可以提供的範圍內我們就提供。"],["主席：好，麻煩到時候提到司法委員會，給每個委員一份，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這部分我剛剛有跟次長詢問，如果醫生的報告是拘束獄政組，那我們當然沒話說，是醫生要負責任，可是他今天的報告來只是參考，那法務部就要負責任，剛剛次長有說其實這個是參考，如果是參考的話，最後貴部還是有決定權嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：那責任就是貴部要擔，所以我想要釐清這個，讓全民也知道，釐清責任到底在誰那邊。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":244.658,"end":272.649,"text":"那尤其是其實在判製第18號現判製第18號也有講到其實這個不法的所得其實沒有一個信賴保護的問題所以這個不會因為被特赦而去沒收那我再請教一下目前你們有沒有研究一下就是說社會上面對於這個到底要不要特赦這個大家的共識是什麼"},{"start":274.887,"end":289.106,"text":"各位報告特赦他是總統特有的職權所以這份如果總統沒有發動的話我們也沒有辦法我們要尊重總統的職權我們不可能主動的去做民意的調查你們有沒有先預作準備因為既然有這個分審出來"},{"start":289.687,"end":307.092,"text":"我剛剛答詢的時候其實有提到就是說法務部就相關的任何的法律上的爭議我們幕僚座位上一定都會收集相關的意見或做法律上的爭點的整理包含今天特赦這個議題因為社會矚目那之前也有媒體揭露所以法務部他事實上有做相關的法制的整理是沒有錯"},{"start":308.288,"end":332.93,"text":"好 謝謝不好意思我這兩天喉嚨人不太舒服那這個部分可能也是要麻煩你們我不知道說府方會不會去請問你們這個相關的建議就依照以前就是曾經有過的特赦經驗府方會不會去詢問法務部請法務部提供相關的見解"},{"start":335.145,"end":358.145,"text":"按照赦免法第6條規定總統府的確是可以另轉本部做相關的研議那我這邊我可能跟各位說明一個東西其實我自己對於陳水扁要不要特赦我覺得當然我們是尊重總統的想法但是我對於目前的制度我比較有一點意見就是說"},{"start":360.035,"end":389.367,"text":"因為陳水扁他現在是保外就醫嘛那包括剛剛也有那個委員羅志強委員有提到高雄監獄受刑人當初在搶槍自殺前他們其實提出來是說為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫但是監所內有比他嚴重非常多的卻沒有辦法保外就醫其實這個在司法面前應該人人平等啊那這公平性到底在哪裡我想法務部就這部分能不能說明一下"},{"start":391.263,"end":393.164,"text":"法務部是受這些醫療報告拘束還是"},{"start":417.775,"end":437.709,"text":"參考根文報告他其實是臺中監獄然後就交由這個這個矯正署來做決定的其實也不是到法務部是好沒關係那矯正署是法務部底下的單位嗎那我請教一下醫療報告是居宿矯正署當然是參考的這個事實認定的一個基準之一那如果是參考的話其實現在有個問題就是說如果是參考那"},{"start":446.206,"end":468.439,"text":"因為他現在客觀的狀況有時候民眾沒有辦法沒有辦法覺得滿意嘛因為他可以上政論節目可以上台演講可以開直播然後可以走來走去這個讓人民覺得他是不是跟我們想像中病情嚴重到要保外就醫這個還是有一個差距嘛"},{"start":469.13,"end":480.645,"text":"那當我們我提就是我剛所以我剛先請教的前提是這些醫生的醫療評估是拘束那個什麼預證預證署還是"},{"start":483.925,"end":505.634,"text":"只是得參考,如果是得參考的話那今天認定的責任就在貴部了當然就是按照我們相關的規定他要提出醫療證明他是這個申請展言的要件之一嘛他這個要件當然他自己判斷準否當然是要由全責機關做決定他不會他只是要件之一而不是拘束"},{"start":506.514,"end":506.914,"text":"司法院秘書長、法務部長"},{"start":529.194,"end":543.03,"text":"他是前總統他的保外就醫的標準跟一般人就不一樣我想不是一般人民不能接受我們自己司法官出售我們也不能接受所以有人說要不要給陳水扁特赦我就 我跟你講與其讓他繼續傷害司法"},{"start":544.972,"end":545.873,"text":"後面還有一個東西請教"},{"start":566.806,"end":592.162,"text":"因為之前我在質詢的時候我有問過部長一個問題3月26號的時候我對蔡部長有去提到死刑執行規則他在訂定上面好像有一點問題那我不知道因為當時部長是跟我承諾在326的時候跟我承諾說他要去修改這個死刑執行規則那我不知道這個部分他有沒有修改"},{"start":594.037,"end":606.125,"text":"各位報告那這件事情規則部分我們有做因應那個憲法訴訟法的修正之後我們有做一些文字的修正這個我們有公告了我們有預告我們有預告這個有預告進行預告程序"},{"start":608.333,"end":623.79,"text":"因為我當時在執行3.26的時候在執行的時候我剛剛說從死刑案件執行實施要點到執行死刑規則的時候他有個但書沒有抄過來那當時部長跟我說他會把他這個部分他會修改因為這個是法務部就可以改的"},{"start":624.693,"end":640.372,"text":"那我想請問因為一直到現在兩個月過去了我還是沒有看到法務部改我上網去看還是舊有的規定對 這我是說這個規則它有預告還沒有完成法規修改的程序但現在進行預告程序它有修改"},{"start":641.601,"end":656.573,"text":"但是還沒有修改他進行預告程序所以這部分是已經修了嗎?因為法規修正他有立法作業程序他現在已經有預告程序預告程序完之後我們要評估外界或民間的意見再決定如何的修正"},{"start":657.613,"end":679.259,"text":"那請教次長說你的意思是說已經有著手在修了只是還沒有完成這個甚至我們也聽了一些民間的意見一些FACE或反FACE團體我們都把它找來對這個修正什麼意見後來我們決定一個版本之後我們就有預告預告完之後當然又會有不同的意見出現了那法務部要再重整所有的意見再決定怎麼修這個條文那謝議長因為齁"},{"start":681.86,"end":707.242,"text":"很多人都說啦就是司法權對於一個人下了死刑判決但是法務部這邊呢他本來應該要執行他卻用規則裡面的一些東西去讓這個死刑執行一直延後一直延後那我是希望說不要讓外界認為說我們沒有刪除死刑但是我們就用行政權去實質廢死"},{"start":709.261,"end":714.072,"text":"我希望說不要法務部的作為不要讓外界有這個誤解就是覺得說好像"},{"start":715.202,"end":740.318,"text":"法務部總是配合上面政治人物的想法要達到實質廢止所以我們條文也不敢刪除實行那我就給你搞個實質上不執行實行就好所以已經好多年沒有執行實行了嘛這部分事實上這個要點從民國94年都一直延續過來我們沒有做實質的修正後來因為監獄行刑法修正之後我們跟著把它改成這個修正成為執行實行規則實質上內容是沒有動的"},{"start":743.5,"end":759.574,"text":"所以不是說法務部近年才把它增加一些障礙去不執行死刑這要點從90年代一直到現在市長這個部分這邊你可能你可能沒有去注意到3月26號我對部長的質詢再麻煩市長你回去看一下326我對部長的質詢"},{"start":762.117,"end":781.057,"text":"當場部長也是說我直接秀給他看兩個的比較那部長也覺得這有問題他說好他回去修改他是這樣跟我說的當天的錄影你們都還可以調出來看確實當時執行要點有一個但書沒有抄到那個執行實行規則去導致當事人他可以用"},{"start":782.284,"end":802.567,"text":"一直不停的申請大法官解釋而且同一個理由一直申請也沒事那所以當時我就跟部長說那你這個要不要把它改掉既然你已經現在都用執行執行規則那你是不是要把它加進去部長當時跟我說好但是我現在看了兩個月還是沒有改這個部分但這個東西是法務部就可以處理的"},{"start":803.803,"end":830.313,"text":"不需要送到立法院三讀所以這可能麻煩次長回去看一下了解這個問題意思我也充分了解是否同意原因的問題讓死刑犯可以用同意原因不斷的來來拖延執行死刑嗎對因為事實上我跟委員報告事實上我剛跟委員提的民間的我們做一些公民的意見的時候光這個議題我們也討論過民間也是有不同的意見也是有好沒關係那所以我要跟你們講的就是"},{"start":831.403,"end":846.658,"text":"執行要點實施要點已經很清楚的說同意原因他不不呃不會讓實行執行呃延後但是呢在執行實行規則的時候這個但書不見了沒有超過了那在我們以前念法律"},{"start":848.039,"end":866.127,"text":"舊法到新法如果有一個東西不見了我們都認為這個是造法者他是民事的就是這一個東西不要了所以在到新法的時候他不會移植過來所以當時我問部長就是那你們今天的意思是同一原因繼續就會一直玩嗎那部長也說好那他們回去會研擬這個部分要修改"},{"start":866.627,"end":893.858,"text":"那我是我今天就要問這個地方因為現在兩個月了因為我看到法務部並沒有動作那再麻煩次長就這部分處理因為我可能我之後還是會繼續盯著這個部分好那這部分是109年那個監獄刑事法修正之後的確在同意原因那個單書沒有把它抄進來那當時有當時時空背景那現在委員提的但是會不會因為同意原因造成申請人不斷的來申請那後來我們有我剛才跟委員報告我們有不斷的尋求公民意識來解決這個問題"},{"start":895.379,"end":896.159,"text":"請法務部提供38次的許可函以及相關的許可理由給委員會"},{"start":927.061,"end":942.853,"text":"跟委員報告他那個形式上的理由當然可以但因為內容他涉及到特種個資就是他個人的診斷證明啦所以這部分如果涉及到特種個資的話我就沒有辦法診斷那形式上他的理由我們當然可以給貴委員會這沒有問題"},{"start":943.974,"end":950.298,"text":"因為這部分我剛剛有跟上就是詢問嘛如果醫生的報告是拘束預證署那我們當然沒話說是醫生要負責任可是他今天的報告來只是參考那今天法務部就要負責任那剛剛次長有說其實這個是參考"},{"start":973.37,"end":986.761,"text":"那如果是參考的話那最後其實貴部還是有這個決定權嘛那責任就是貴部要擔啦所以其實我想要釐清這個讓全民也知道釐清責任到底在誰那邊"}]}},{"id":"152551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152551","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c06b694735a40a384b96869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c59930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:41:01 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我想法務部正視這件事情現在很多年輕人 他們都說是抽大麻違法 那我來抽這個我用電子菸來抽這樣的一個麻醉藥品叫做依托米子那用這樣抽的這個依托米子他一樣會造成迷幻而且會有成癮性所以我覺得法務部要去正視這樣的一個毒品在市面上流通而且很多年輕人"},{"start":414.761,"end":421.812,"text":"會因為電子煙去好奇去接觸去使用這樣的東西我覺得法務部要正視這個事好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0d0e519e6fef9124296869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c543ba2ecc2b3ce5ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:15:07 - 12:27:31","影片長度":"00:12:24","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":744,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:27:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:15:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時15分）謝謝主席，有請次長跟秘書長。"],["主席：請次長、秘書長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長好，請問您擔任法務相關工作多久了？"],["黃次長謀信：我擔任檢察官29年。"],["吳委員思瑤：司法人員29年，那在國會的工作呢？就是來備詢的……"],["黃次長謀信：我擔任過行政職，現在要算一下，七、八年吧。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以加起來有三十多年的經驗。那秘書長，您呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我服務40年，來國會備詢1年。"],["吳委員思瑤：我想請您發揮您的法律專業，我在新聞媒體上赫然看到，也很不好意思，就是我們坐在臺上的主席，國民黨的委員吳宗憲委員，針對國民黨特定委員的司法案件，在國民黨內部討論時清楚的說，徐巧芯涉及被外交部告發妨害國家秘密的洩密罪，吳委員說由於此案非告訴乃論，外交部沒有辦法撤告，不該坐等檢察官不起訴，國民黨應當轉守為攻，進而由其他藍委來逼提告的外交部具狀給檢察官，表達外交部希望此案不起訴，把壓力再拋回外交部，也就是由具有法律專業的吳召委號召國民黨的立委們，來逼迫外交部具狀給檢方，爭取不起訴。你們都在司法的領域，不管擔任司法人員或在國會擔任行政人員，這麼多年，你們有看過這樣公然用政治力干預司法的這種作為嗎？逼迫外交部具狀給檢方爭取不起訴，這就是逼迫外交部撤告，也就是希望外交部這件事情攪一攪、喬一喬，不要告了，你們有沒有看過這種案子嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個已經是屬於個案了，所以司法院司法行政……"],["吳委員思瑤：也不宜評論。"],["吳秘書長三龍：不宜評論。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長，因為檢察官的獨立自主辦案是法務部要捍衛的，你有看過這樣子的嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，因為這涉及到個案的事實，我不是很清楚，所以不便評論。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也不為難你們，我們在司法及法制委員會這個會期立下了很多的惡例，我看到有不同的委員不斷的針對個案來提出他的立場，好，個案不是不能有立場，但是我們過去的討論，頂多會看到對於個案衍生出通案制度的檢視，但是如果對於一個個案用具體的立委質詢權、立委的國會權限來要求、來逼迫已經提告的政府部門，對於個別立委所涉案的事情，用施壓的方式要求、逼迫外交部對於此案來具狀爭取不起訴，我認為萬萬不可，我必須在這裡做出這個紀錄，我們是司法及法制委員會，我們對於司法的獨立自主、對於政治不能干預單一個案，都要以身作則。","好，下一頁，回到今天特赦的主題，我想說的是其實這是一個假設性的議題，因為畢竟我早上聆聽你們的回答，次長都沒有收到任何來自於府方的指示，所以這事實上是一個假設性的議題，而且如果要進行特赦，也不知道特赦的對象是誰，對不對？完全毫無所悉，這也是我身為黨鞭這幾天在回應媒體、社會各界所持的同樣立場，我確實沒有任何的資訊，而特赦就是總統的職權，國會應當予以尊重。但是今天召委排這個案，我覺得很好，我們可以從制度性來檢視臺灣的特赦，從法制面到實行面。憲法第四十條的授權，以及赦免法第三條、第五條之一和第六條的規範，特赦是憲法所賦予總統的專屬職權，而且特赦限罪刑確定的案件，以受罪刑宣告人為限，而且免除其刑之執行，非免除其罪，特赦非平反判決，效果也不溯及既往，沒收之犯罪所得並非是特赦的範圍，我這樣釐清跟理解制度是不是都正確？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，但是特赦除了免除執刑之外，還有罪刑也可以免，如果情節特殊的話。"],["吳委員思瑤：那有例外的規範。","下一頁，我們來看看臺灣歷年的特赦案例，四任總統皆行使過特赦之權，蔣介石總統1961、1963、1965年共三次，包括政治犯，包括過失致死罪；李登輝總統在1990年特赦了呂秀蓮、許信良等27位政治犯，都是美麗島事件，罪刑無效；陳水扁總統任內2000年特赦了三個案類，有22人，包括工運的領袖、強盜殺人罪，2007年陳水扁總統也特赦了白米炸彈客楊儒門，這是阿扁總統任內的兩次；蔡英文總統也是兩度，一個是2021年特赦了王光祿，就是原住民族的持槍狩獵的這個個案，2022年蔡英文總統再行使特赦，是韓豫平跟張淯森兩位軍隊加菜金核銷餐費的事件。我做出這樣的整理代表在不同的歷任總統任內，也不關乎任何政黨，這就是總統的職權，臺灣有行使特赦的經驗，只要他依法有據，對不對？","下一頁，我們來看看國際的體制，我們今天就來論體制，我覺得這是一個難得機會，我們可以跟在線上關心的公民一起來看看特赦在各國的制度是如何。不管是在總統制或是君主憲政的體制下，都擁有特赦權，在美國，總統制下總統可依聯邦憲法第二條第二款授予，因為總統是聯邦體制，所以總統可以對於聯邦罪犯來行使他的赦免或是減刑的裁量權，但是原則上總統享有發動、選定對象、特赦與否的高度自自主權，是完全不受國會或是司法體系法院的干擾，因為它是聯邦體制，所以在美國的州，州長也會有州的特赦權。所以我整理出來在美國的特赦的案例，拜登總統2021到2024年特赦了24人，川普總統2017到2021年特赦了144人，歐巴馬8年任內特赦了212人，小布希8年任內特赦了189人，柯林頓從1993到2001年特赦了396人，所以在總統制的美國，總統高度自主的特赦權，國會或法院都沒有置喙的餘地，歷代總統都特赦了上百人之多，我的整理應該無誤吧？","下一頁，一樣是總統制的韓國，我們最熟悉他的特赦體制，同樣是憲法的賦權，然後韓國全斗煥、盧泰愚、金泳三次子金賢哲、李明博跟朴槿惠所犯的相關的不管是軍事叛亂、收受賄賂、貪污、挪用公款、洩密等等，也都在1997、1999、2021、2022年獲得特赦，這是韓國的經驗，依據韓國的憲法，總統的職權一樣，他要面對的是民意的評判，但是在制度上沒有人可以去挑戰他，只能夠尊重總統職權的行使，這是韓國的經驗。","下一頁我們來看君主立憲的國家──英國，英國的皇家赦免權是君主授予赦免，但是實質上是首相或內閣來建議行使，所以2019年的一個很重要的案例，我在這裡就不贅述了，當年因為謀殺消防員而被判無期徒刑的Steven Gallant，在2019年倫敦恐怖攻擊事件中成功阻止恐攻，而獲得女王的特赦。君主立憲的國家同樣透過首相或內閣的建議行使皇家赦免權，是得以上路，而且被尊重。","我分享最後一個，也是我們最鄰近的日本，同樣是君主立憲體制，日本的恩赦制度是內閣許可權，由內閣決定、天皇來認證，所以2019年在日本德仁天皇重要的即位大典的時候，就進行了政令恩赦，八成是違反道路交通法令，430人獲特赦是違反公職選舉法，總共有55萬人在2019年日本德仁天皇即位的時候被獲得恩赦，所以在日本也有非常多的施行經驗，55萬人獲得特赦。","我為什麼分享這麼多？我希望社會回到制度面來看待體制，在臺灣中華民國憲法的規範之下，特赦就是總統的職權，國會只能尊重，至於行政部門，如果總統有要求法務部來研議，你們就要來協力；如果總統直接行使，連你們也不需要有相關的行政作為跟配合。所以特赦是憲法賦予總統的專屬職權，而停審的案件不是行使特赦的範圍，如果大家要聚焦在扁案，只能夠針對他偵辦終結定讞的案類，而且具體個案未沒收的犯罪所得，不會受特赦效力的影響。也就是社會討論比較多的不法所得，會不會因為特赦而一併的都赦免他返繳國庫呢？並不會，所以我們就制度來論制度，我一直說，因為特赦目前沒有發生，總統沒有宣示，法務部也沒有接受到任何行政配合的指示，目前只是一個假設性的議題，對於是不是行使特赦、可能特赦的對象是誰，我們都不知道。所以我希望從制度面讓大家清楚地看到，特赦在不同憲政體制的國家都是至高無上的國家元首所擁有的權力，然後依法行事，國會沒有置喙的餘地，但是總統必須顧及社會民意的觀感。所以就制度論制度，我想就這個案件，我們不需要有太多政治的指涉，我們讓整個特赦回到制度面去研議，過去蔣介石、李登輝、陳水扁、蔡英文都行使過特赦，臺灣也都具足相關的法規，我今天的質詢要呈現這個部分，謝謝主席，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，我這邊簡單的說明一下，因為在座很多的法官、檢察官，吳委員，我可能要提醒一件事，有些東西弄錯出去會被人家笑。第一個，媒體的內容有時候會引申我們的說詞，這個我都可以理解，媒體報導跟我們說的有時候都有一個差距。第二個，因為在座很多法官、檢察官，他們很清楚，司法實務上面告訴乃論之罪，被告或被告的辯護人建議怎麼跟告訴人談判，要求告訴人撤告，或非告訴乃論之罪，請告訴人具狀跟檢察官請求不予追究，這個是司法實務的常態，這個不是什麼罕見的事情啦！第三，外交部不是司法機關，你對外交部的任何作為，不會發生政治力干預司法，我覺得五權憲法要唸一下啦！還是說改天我再幫大家上個課，跟大家指導一下……"],["吳委員思瑤：那我可以回答嗎？"],["主席：謝謝各位。"],["吳委員思瑤：我想要好好對社會說清楚，主席確實要好好說清楚，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員。","接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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不便評論 我也不為難你們我們在司法及法制委員會這個會期立下了很多的惡例我看到有不同的委員不斷地針對個案來提出他的立場好 個案不是不能有立場但是我們在過去的討論頂多會看到對於個案來衍生出通案的制度的檢視但是如果對於一個個案來用具體的"},{"start":193.911,"end":193.931,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":210.421,"end":210.541,"text":"好 下一頁"},{"start":229.505,"end":248.9,"text":"回到今天特赦的主題我想說的是其實這是一個假設性的議題因為畢竟我早上聆聽你們的回答市長都沒有收到任何來自於府方的這種指示嘛所以針對測試上是一個假設性的議題而且如果要進行特赦也不知道特赦的對象是誰嘛"},{"start":249.54,"end":249.58,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":273.799,"end":290.238,"text":"憲法第40條的授權以及赦免法第3條、第5至1條還有第6條的規範特赦是憲法所賦予總統的專屬職權而且特赦他現罪行確定的案件他受罪行宣告人違憲"},{"start":292.02,"end":319.787,"text":"而且他免除刑之執行．非免除其罪特赦非平反判決．效果也不溯及既往沒收之犯罪所得．並非是特赦的範圍我這樣釐清跟理解制度是不是都正確?次長沒有錯但是特赦範圍另外有一個除了免之執行之外還有罪行也可以免除情節特殊的話是那有其外的例外的規範好下一頁"},{"start":321.584,"end":343.863,"text":"我們來看看臺灣歷年的特赦的案例四任總統皆行使過特赦之權蔣介石總統1961、1963、1965三次包括政治犯、包括過失致死罪李登輝總統在1961年特赦了呂秀蓮、許信良等27位政治犯都是美麗島事件罪行無效"},{"start":345.164,"end":360.354,"text":"陳說扁總統任內2000年特赦了三個案例那有22人包括公允的領袖包括這個強盜殺人罪2007年陳說扁總統也特赦了百米焦蛋客養乳門這是阿扁總統任內兩次"},{"start":363.154,"end":380.571,"text":"蔡英文總統也是兩度一個是2021年特赦了王光祿就是原住民族的持槍狩獵的這個個案2022年蔡英文總統在行使特赦是韓玉萍跟張玉森兩位軍隊加菜精和消餐費的事件我做出這樣的整理代表"},{"start":381.997,"end":405.948,"text":"在不同的歷任總統的任內也不關乎任何政黨這就是總統的職權臺灣有行使特赦的經驗只要他依法有據對不對下一頁我們來看看國際的體制我們今天就來論體制我覺得這是一個難得的機會我們可以跟在線上關心的公民一起來看看特赦在各國的制度是如何"},{"start":406.768,"end":426.296,"text":"不管是在總統制或是君主憲政的體制下都擁有特赦權在美國總統制下呢總統可依聯邦憲法第二條第二款授予因為總統是聯邦體制所以總統可以對於聯邦罪犯來行使他的赦免或是減刑的裁量權"},{"start":427.256,"end":443.192,"text":"但是原則上總統他享有的對象他的發動特赦與否的高度自主權是完全不受國會或是司法體系法院的干擾因為他是聯邦體制所以在美國的州"},{"start":444.053,"end":452.939,"text":"州長也會有州的特赦權所以我整理出來在美國的特赦的案例拜登總統2021到2024特赦了24人川普總統2017到2021特赦了144人歐巴馬8年任內特赦了212人小布希8年任內特赦了189人柯林頓從1993到2001特赦了396人"},{"start":474.233,"end":487.1,"text":"所以總統在總統制的美國制裡頭總統高度自主的特赦權國會或法院都沒有智慧的餘地他特赦了都是上百人之多我的整理應該無誤嘛下一頁"},{"start":490.061,"end":509.952,"text":"韓國一樣總統制的韓國韓國我們最熟悉他的特赦體制他同樣是憲法的副權然後呢韓國權斗患盧太宇、金永三次子、金賢哲、李明博跟這個蒲景惠他們所犯的相關的不管是軍事叛亂、收受賄賂、貪污、農用公款、泄密等等"},{"start":510.512,"end":514.214,"text":"也都在1997、1999、2022、2021獲得特赦這是韓國的經驗依據韓國的憲法總統的職權一樣他要面對的是民意的評判但是在制度上沒有人可以去挑戰他只能夠尊重總統職權的形式這是韓國的經驗我們來看君主立憲的國家英國"},{"start":535.347,"end":542.793,"text":"英國的皇江赦免權是君主授予赦免．但是實質上是首相或內閣來建議行使所以2019年的一個很重要的案例我在這裡就不贅述了一個當年因為磨砂消防員而判無期徒刑的 Steven Gallant"},{"start":555.982,"end":572.982,"text":"他在2019年他協助了倫敦恐怖攻擊事件的這個成功的阻卻了恐攻而設獲得女王的特赦君主立憲的國家同樣的透過首相或內閣的建議行使皇家赦免權是得以"},{"start":573.843,"end":585.272,"text":"上路而且被尊重下一頁我分享最後一個也是我們最鄰近的日本同樣是君主立憲體制日本的恩赦制度是內閣的許可權由內閣決定天皇來認證"},{"start":588.815,"end":611.315,"text":"所以2019年在他們日本的德仁天皇即位在他重要的大典的時候就進行了政令的恩赦然後呢八成是違反道路交通法令430人獲特赦是違反公職選舉法總共有55萬人在2019年日本德仁天皇即位的時候被獲得這個恩赦"},{"start":614.398,"end":633.41,"text":"所以在日本也有非常多的施行經驗五十五萬人獲得特赦下一頁我為什麼分享這麼多我希望社會回到制度面來看待體制在台灣中華民國憲法的規範之下特赦就是總統的職權國會只能尊重"},{"start":634.17,"end":656.688,"text":"行政部門．如果總統有對於要求法務部來研議．你們就要來協力．如果總統直接行使．連你們也不需要有相關的行政作為跟配合．所以特赦是憲法賦予總統的專屬職權．而停審的案件不是行使特赦的範圍．如果大家要聚焦在貶案．只能夠針對他偵辦終結的定驗的案例．"},{"start":661.852,"end":675.628,"text":"而且具體個案未沒收的犯罪所得他不會受特赦效力的影響也就是社會討論比較多的不法所得會不會因為特赦而一併的都赦免他返交國庫呢?並不會"},{"start":677.93,"end":695.597,"text":"所以我們就制度來論制度我一直說因為特赦目前沒有發生總統沒有宣誓法務部也沒有接受到任何行政配合的指示目前只是一個假設性的議題對於是不是行使特赦可能特赦的對象是誰我們都不知道"},{"start":696.517,"end":719.264,"text":"所以我希望從制度面讓大家再清楚的看到特赦在不同的憲政體制的國家它都是至高無上的國家元首所擁有的權利然後依法行事國會沒有智慧的餘地但是總統必須顧及社會民意的觀感"},{"start":719.944,"end":720.144,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0fa8ea0af1cf9fa2aad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c5a6fda1f50879ef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"13:31:20 - 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 Organization要去執行我們的業務時，他們只要符合他們的法律規範就好，和我們的採購法毫無關連。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這樣本席就懂了。剩最後一點點的時間，部長，非常謝謝您，您也辛苦了，本席相信臺灣的外交路還很長，如果沒有中共的打壓，我們會走的更順利，但是即便有他們的打壓，我們也一樣要像剛才有一位委員說的，要挺直腰桿，對不對？我們要挺直腰桿繼續走下去。"],["吳部長釗燮：是的，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：要記得，本席把迷你烏克蘭手作花送給部長的時候，部長可以tag本席，然後拍個照，本席不會問你有多少人按讚，因為那不重要，本席也不希望有人問那是幾片花瓣，如果沒有幾片就不是你做的，本席不會這麼沒有理智。部長，謝謝你，辛苦了。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，沒有問題，謝謝委員，我會持續努力，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.60471875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.03909375,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.72659375,"end":4.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.48784375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.04471875,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":42.134093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.336593750000006,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.210968750000006,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.06721875000001,"end":67.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.73346875,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.35784375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.50096875,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.27659375,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.49846875,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.33159375000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.21284375,"end":115.00034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.30409375,"end":128.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.36096875,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.44096875,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.93409375000002,"end":141.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.95096875000002,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.35471875000002,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.14284375,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.83846875,"end":152.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.80034375,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.86284375,"end":158.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.22096875,"end":215.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.60909375,"end":220.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.87409375000001,"end":223.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.75971875000002,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.02909375000002,"end":229.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.02034375000002,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.71534375000002,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.48221875000002,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.82346875000002,"end":255.65346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.51409375000003,"end":266.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.68971875,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.52846875,"end":274.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.80659375,"end":277.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.59096875,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.49284375,"end":284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.33659375,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.53471875,"end":290.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.50034375,"end":311.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.50596875,"end":309.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.21471875000003,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.16346875,"end":313.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.87221875,"end":321.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.39846875,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.86096875000004,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.75284375,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.68471875,"end":355.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.57034375,"end":364.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.60284375000003,"end":384.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.37409375000004,"end":369.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.88784375,"end":376.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.54471875,"end":391.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.63221875000005,"end":398.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.96471875000003,"end":400.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.09096875,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.32284375,"end":401.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.90909375,"end":418.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.27346875,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.04534375000003,"end":422.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.69909375000003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辛苦了 有請部長請部長"},{"start":10.472,"end":38.332,"text":"部長午安這是我第一次到這個國防外交委員會但也是最後一次在您備詢的時候跟您見面我非常的榮幸好那我想今天大家都聚焦在我們的國防或者是我們的外交的部分那當然我們也知道其實外交部在這幾年當中在您的帶領下辛苦的各位外交部的同仁們大家都做了非常非常多的一些努力讓世界看見台灣讓國際看見台灣台灣已經是一個非常重要的"},{"start":39.633,"end":39.933,"text":"部長知道這是什麼嗎?"},{"start":65.28,"end":89.422,"text":"這是烏克蘭國旗的顏色是這是我手作的我本來今天應該要帶來的但不知道因為會到現在才質詢到您這樣子我本來想要在部長這個最後一次在這個地方然後親手送給您我自己手作的烏克蘭我相信其實不管是民間也好我們臺灣也好對於烏克蘭的援助其實真的都不分任何任何的一個"},{"start":90.543,"end":92.124,"text":"在這次我們的原著的部分其實捷克的特質他們也特別有特別提到"},{"start":109.719,"end":109.919,"text":"臺灣其實真的"},{"start":129.36,"end":151.817,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":152.018,"end":160.54,"text":"新闻他们还有实际的事件他们也感到非常非常的伤心那这个部分是不是部长您也可以来说一下"},{"start":161.637,"end":184.781,"text":"的確,我們跟捷克的討論過程當中大家都是很有誠意的希望能夠來協助烏克蘭因為烏克蘭目前在戰亂當中我們在那邊也沒有人能夠實際到所需要的這些地方去看他們缺什麼樣的東西那捷克政府就非常好指定了CHTI這一個機構來作為一個中介的單位"},{"start":188.522,"end":214.325,"text":"那讓他們的人能夠實際到前線去提供這些必要的這些器材資源等等的所以這是一個非常具有誠意的一個合作的項目那但是如果說在這個過程當中被形容為這個可能裡面有貪汙裡面可能有政治利益介入或者是說提供這些不當的政治利益給一些政治人物等等的那我想我們的這些好朋友聽了一定會覺得很難過"},{"start":215.843,"end":236.519,"text":"這其實也阻礙了我們台灣對外的外交的關係的途徑更填了另外一種不同的變數但我們萬萬沒有想到這個變數會出現在立法院那我想特別在針對這個政大選舉政治大學他們這個選舉研究中心特別做的在去年的一個民調"},{"start":238.481,"end":253.629,"text":"其實他們在2月份也公布了這份民調他說61.7%的人其實我們的民眾都認為自己本身就是台灣人只有2.4%的人認為自己是中國人這已經創下整個所有的民調的一個記錄從1992年以來"},{"start":257.471,"end":283.456,"text":"當時認為自己是中國人的是25.5%到現在只剩下2.4%我相信我們都以愛這片土地身為台灣人為榮但我萬萬也沒有想到這2.4%有可能有大部分是在我們立法院當中因為他們前一陣子才去中國嘛那名字被唸反了其實也無所謂好那再來其實我真的要強調的既然我們手上有這份這個叫做"},{"start":284.514,"end":285.695,"text":"這是一個處理的方式,沒有錯"},{"start":313.208,"end":320.767,"text":"好,比比第2會議有113位的立法委員,為什麼唯獨只提告那一位呢?"},{"start":321.428,"end":348.463,"text":"因為我們在那個公眾的媒體上面已經看到了就把整個文件秀出來那這個就是違背了我們當時要把這個文件列密的這個原因我們也認為說這個文件如果說對外來完整透露的話可能會影響到我們跟其他國家之間的這個關係影響到我們去協助烏克蘭甚至是影響到我們的整體的國家利益所以覺得說這個是不能夠再放任下去"},{"start":348.883,"end":363.674,"text":"是 所以我們是提告有據 對不對是 很明顯的違反刑法第132條除了刑法第132條以外是不是還包含國家秘密保護法的部分這個部分是不是也會加入討論"},{"start":364.875,"end":383.153,"text":"我們所看到的公文是以秘來區分所以它這個不是國家機密保護法裡面所定義的機密但是這個已經構成國防以外的秘密所以是違反了刑法第132條"},{"start":384.608,"end":397.992,"text":"我最想要說的是如果有很多其他的委員說這份其實不算秘密文件那為什麼其他人他們不拿出來從來沒有人把這個秘密文件公開過沒有其他的狀況發生也從來沒有過"},{"start":400.553,"end":400.933,"text":"國際合作與關外"},{"start":422.782,"end":433.927,"text":"是,那另外就是很多人在講到所謂的政府採購法在這裡我不知道我的解讀對不對這個政府採購法其實是針對台灣本身的一些財團或者法人嘛是針對台灣嘛是所以其實不適用所謂的外國的團體或法人應該這麼講對不對他們是不適用這樣的部分沒有錯好"},{"start":441.63,"end":465.003,"text":"那我剛剛有特別提到臺灣的醫療的品質其實舉世聞名這也真的是毋庸置疑啦那這次其實我們也希望說在臺灣就所謂的衛生組織或者是在加強所謂的醫療衛生的部分其實已經是全球的一個共識了所以其實包含加入所謂的跨國疾病的一個防治參與積極的參與這個國際的組織也是我們特別在將來"},{"start":470.506,"end":487.641,"text":"現在現階段在我們的外交政策當中其實是非常非常有必要性的那剛剛其實也有委員稍早的時候他有提到他說我們這個秘密文件裡頭是不是有圖利其他的廠商然後或者是說那我又要鼓勵我的這個台灣的廠商"},{"start":488.722,"end":489.403,"text":"我是不曉得那個邏輯在哪裡我可不可以請部長來這邊"},{"start":509.478,"end":534.364,"text":"謝謝委員我這邊簡單的說明一下就是說如果是在國內採購的話當然就是使用我們國內的那個採購相關的法規來處理那但是這個是一個其他國家的這個NGO那他們在採購的時候就必須要符合當地的那個政府的規範那因為這個是在歐洲國家就也必須要去符合歐盟相關的這些規範而且他們的規範是採高標準的"},{"start":536.764,"end":555.57,"text":"那所以當這個當地的non-profit organization要去執行我們的這個業務的時候那他們只要去符合他們的這個法律規範就好跟我們的採購法是毫無關聯好這樣子我就懂了好那當然最後一點點的時間就是部長在這裡非常謝謝您"},{"start":556.51,"end":556.53,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":575.888,"end":576.188,"text":"謝謝委員我會持續努力謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152548","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152548","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f17b3bc3eab8e45b881f4f1090bc66a5dc2a0f44cf1b72c510bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:50:48 - 12:03:23","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":755,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:03:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:50:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1011,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時50分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我在5月9號發現我們新市有稻熱病，然後我也請我們相關單位下去看，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：我當時就要求要全面啟動水稻收入保險理賠，因為有這個強制水稻保險之後，我們是把它排除在整個災害救助的範圍之外，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。我們去現場看完之後，我之後也有跟署長說這個問題非常大，我到現場一看，看到我們的農改場和分署給了我這份資料說，我們所有的基準產量、各區的基準產量，我們是用這個基準產量來作為是不是理賠的一個標準，也就是今年的產量要跟這一個基準產量去比，如果少於兩成才可以理賠。","部長，我跟你說，這張啦！我今天還不是在種稻的人喔，我今天一看都知道這根本無法理賠，全部的錢都讓保險公司賺走了啦！你知道嗎？這個標準極低欸！他說用5年的坪割數，5年坪割數你知道它是去頭去尾，現在我們臺南……不要說臺南啦，我們的稻米生產是一年好、一年差，我們的「歹年冬」有時候還會連續2年耶！你去頭去尾有什麼用？你用5年的坪割數，然後坪割數下來，今年我要理賠了，整個數量一看都過低，這怎麼辦？我在當下就要求你們要去檢討，我也跟部長說了，我還親自打電話給部長，我說：部長，你這個問題很大，但部長說不會有問題。好，我現在就來聽，部長，哪裡不會有問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個，當推動水稻收入保險的時候，基本上一定要有一個產量的基準值嘛，這個基準值目前唯一有公告數據的就是農情調查裡面的水稻產量，這個水稻產量用5年的平均、去頭去尾的平均，它就是一個值在那邊。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你是不是聽不懂我說的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：你用5年的平均去頭去尾，它明明就一年好、一年差，或是連續2年、3年差了，你整個平均數就拉低了啊，你去頭去尾有什麼用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，去頭去尾也會把高的去掉、也會把低的去掉啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯啊！可是平均就是「歹年冬」已經好幾年了，你把它去頭去尾有什麼用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，去頭去尾在統計的標準裡面是一個合理的數值。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我已經說，在這5年當中已經有3年至4年本身很差了，你去頭去尾只是把這個標準的頭跟尾去掉，可是中間的3年還是不好啊，還是不好啊！在不好當中，你在這要不要看一下？你們署裡面有沒有給你看這個資料？你要不要看一下？在這裡，你看一下你的數字，這裡面的數字都過低、都過低！這一拿出來，我一看想說，怎麼會這麼低？這麼低之後，請問今年全臺南……部長，從新市之後，後壁傳出，現在官田傳出，現在新營、下營、柳營整個有種稻米的地方全部都淪陷，都是稻熱病、都空砲彈，全部都淪陷了！我現在就看今年有沒有辦法拿到補助？有沒有辦法拿到理賠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業保險的部分，不是保險就想要拿到這個保險費，它是一個風險的概念，他如果降低到20%……"],["陳委員亭妃：少於兩成啊！兩成啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，如果少於兩成，他一定可以減賠啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：少於兩成啊！現在你的基準量就過低了，他怎麼少於兩成啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個基準量是他過去……"],["陳委員亭妃：他的基準量就過低了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個基準量是他過去的一個平均嘛，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：過去的平均就是過低，那就是過低！"],["陳代理部長駿季：表示他過去的產量就在那邊了，所以他要比過去的產量更低到20%啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長你這麼講，你做代理部長到現在，520要升做部長之後，你講話怎麼會完全不一樣了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是……"],["陳委員亭妃：你怎麼完全不一樣了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個是……"],["陳委員亭妃：這是不一樣的！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個是專業的判斷。"],["陳委員亭妃：你應該去瞭解，這不是專業判斷，這根本就是保險公司把錢都拿走了，所以真的能夠拿到理賠……所以現在所有農民說：這樣我不要了，我不要強制被水稻保險，我甘願你把我納進去災害救助範圍。你知道這兩年他們拿不到耶，他們完全都拿不到！你們每次就要求說，因為你們是強制保險，政府幫你保險，所以你強制保險、納入到保險、你排除於災害救助。已經兩年了，今年情況更嚴重，去年就這樣了！而且現在是極端氣候。","部長，你知道嗎？你的農改場跟人家說：你就趕快噴藥。你在說廢話喔？什麼叫趕快噴藥？你知道嗎？依現在整個天氣狀態，馬上一陣雨來、馬上風一陣來、馬上又出大太陽，請問農民怎麼可以趕快噴藥？那個不用幾天，就一天而已，一天之後他們要趕快噴藥都來不及了，整個稻熱病這樣一批、一批、一批，全部都影響到！你有沒有到地方去看？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於稻熱病本身的發生，有的品種比較抗病，另外，我們現在的稻熱病有一些預警的機制，我們也希望啟動區域的防治作為，那樣比較有效！相對地回到今天討論的主題，就是他如果產量過低的時候，我們會在坪割點的部分，就是產量調查的部分，在那個區塊去增加坪割點，這樣子他產量低的時候，百分比就可以有20%的機會，就是減產的時候能夠得到理賠，這是一個比較專業的，所以我都尊重這些專業的改良場去判斷的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：我剛剛已經跟你講了，改良場都可以講這種話了，講說：你就趕快噴藥。那你跟我講他會有什麼專業？他的專業就是叫人趕快噴藥！我告訴你，農民不會管理嗎？農民會管理，是現在的天氣變化已經對他們造成壓力，他們已經來不及了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你今天說增加坪割點，我接受，就是因為他的產量現在已經受到影響了，所以增加坪割點，在各區增加他的坪割點，這個我接受，那要加到多少？比例當中……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個要由他們專業來判斷那個區域的……"],["陳委員亭妃：你不要再說專業了嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我在這邊……"],["陳委員亭妃：我剛剛就講了，農改場都敢講這種話了，我會相信專業？我是說你一定要有一個標準，因為這個問題不是今天發生，如果你沒有在今天訂了一個標準、訂了一個狀態，未來每年都會發生啊，農民會對我們強制的稻米保險沒有信心啊！明明是我們政府好意，結果你知道現在地方說：我們不要，你們把錢退給我，我不要了啦！重點是政府直接補助給保險公司、直接繳的啊，又不是補助給農民，你知道嗎？好意今天變這個樣子耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我非常謝謝委員的這些建議，依我剛才說的，產量的基準目前是沒辦法去動它的，因為我不可能看到問題再去動這個產量的基準，產量的基準要用幾年或者是去頭去尾，這個部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，第一，現在因為事情已經發生了，當然我們不能去動前面的產量，因為這是一個制度，好！現階段是今年發生了，我們增加坪割點，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，增加坪割點，增加的部分應該讓地方各區農會或地方的農民能夠接受，這個部分是第一。","第二，就是要去檢討這個機制，因為這個產量的問題已經不符他們未來的理賠狀況，表示我們現在的制度是有狀況的、是有問題的，我們要重新檢討，你若要再繼續走下去，我跟你說，農民都翻臉了啦，農民說：這樣我不要，我不要你強制給我水稻保險，乾脆給我回歸到理賠機制，你給我災害救助嘛！會有這個狀況，今天我去會勘的時候，我告訴你，這個已經是臺南全面喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有全面，特定的地區。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，就幾個地方……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們瞭解的是特定地區。"],["陳委員亭妃：我告訴你，現在就是幾個地方，新市、後壁、官田、新營、下營、柳營等這幾個地方，那後續還會陸續出來，這個都是主要的產區喔！主要的產區都已經發生問題了，你說沒有全面？你活在自己的世界嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我絕對不是，因為剛才說的稻熱病，它是有一些特定品種的發生頻度會比較高；那有一些品種會發生，但是發生的頻度比較低。你如果去看，它的確是有稻熱病，但稻熱病的影響程度是不一樣的，所以我也尊重委員的……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然啊！這幾個地方都是我們親自去調查的，這幾個地方已經發生了稻熱病，已經發生了空砲彈，然後我剛剛所講的，部長，麻煩就是在各區增加坪割點，讓它整個實質的產量可以適時呈現，這個很重要。","第二個，要重新檢討所有水稻收入保險理賠的機制，這個機制是有問題的，你用所謂過去5年的產量，然後用今年產量去比較，這是有問題，根本沒有任何一個農民可以得到理賠，這個拜託一定要檢討，1個月，我不管，就1個月啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個沒辦法1個月……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那要多久？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為農業保險的產量基準，那個牽扯到所有的保險都用同樣的制度。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那要多久？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得至少要3個月到半年。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，3個月。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們來跟委員報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：在長期的部分，3個月去檢討出來；然後短期的部分就是這一次，我們臺南新市、後壁、官田、新營、下營、柳營這幾個地方，已經發生了稻熱病、空砲彈的部分，請馬上用所謂緊急處理的方式、補強的方式來做處理，麻煩你了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會增加坪割點去處理這個部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，增加坪割點來做補強處理，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長，因為現在暖化的問題，包括我們待會要實質討論第七條裡頭的那一些項目，你也請你們幕僚再去盤點一下，因為現在暖化問題產生出來很多的不一樣，包括型態不一樣，我們好不容易通過保險制度，這個是我們大家藍綠白大家奮鬥有成，如果我們奮鬥出來的條文沒有辦法讓民眾拿到，這個就很難過了、就沒有意義了，所以你們跟保險公司可能還要再去討論它的項目、類別是什麼，要不然明明都拿不到、保險也沒有，則繳錢要做什麼呢？可能陳亭妃委員的重點是在這裡，所以趕快去盤點，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳冠廷委員，請作詢答。我們剛才說過中午就不休息，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 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他現在你的基準量就過低了他怎麼少於兩成啊!他的基準量就過低了!過去的平均就是過低那表示說他過去的產量就在那邊了所以他要比過去的產量更低到百分之二十啊部長你這麼講"},{"start":310.27,"end":335.887,"text":"你做代理保證的行政到現在要行政五里空保證之後你講話才完全不一樣啊你還完全不一樣啊這是不一樣的你應該去瞭解這不是專業判斷這是根本就是保險公司錢都花掉了所以真的能夠拿到所以現在所有農民說這樣我不喜歡我不要強制被水稻保險我敢問你"},{"start":337.108,"end":340.169,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":366.789,"end":371.978,"text":"而且現在是極端期齁部長你知不知你的農街長跟人家說你就趕快噴油啊你在講會議嗎"},{"start":377.782,"end":381.063,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":404.708,"end":420.063,"text":"你有沒有地方去看?我告訴你,道德病本身的發生,有些品種比較抗病,然後另外就是說,我們現在的道德病有一些預警的一個機制,然後我們也希望啟動區域的一個防治的作為。"},{"start":422.125,"end":447.959,"text":"所以相對的回到今天討論的主題就是他如果產量過低的時候我們會在評割點的部分就是產量調達的部分在那個區塊去增加那個評割點這樣子的話他產量低的時候他就可以有百分比有百分之二十的機會就是減產的時候就能夠得到理賠這是一個比較專業的所以我都尊重專業的這些改良廠去判斷的部分"},{"start":448.885,"end":457.259,"text":"我剛剛已經跟你講了改良場都可以講這種話了講說啊你就看金朋友啊那你跟我講說他會用什麼專業"},{"start":459.534,"end":487.039,"text":"他的專業就是叫人家擬本院啊我告訴你農民農民不可以管理嘛農民可以管理是你今天你提起的變化對他們來說他們的額外已經做成了他已經不會付了所以你今天說增加平割點我接受就是他的產量因為現在已經受到影響了增加平割點在各區增加他的平割點這個我接受那要加到多少"},{"start":488.001,"end":514.727,"text":"這個我想由他們沒有 這個要由他們專業來判斷那個區域的你不要再說專業了嘛我剛剛就講了農幹場都開始講這種話了我會相信專業我是說你一定要有一個標準因為這個問題不是今天發生未來你沒有在今天定了一個標準定了一個狀態未來每年都會發生啊農民會對我們的強制稻米的保險會沒有信心啊"},{"start":516.311,"end":529.289,"text":"明明是我們政府好意,結果現在你知不知幾個地方說我沒來沒來,你錢拿回來,我沒來啊。重點是政府直接補助保險公司一隻肚子啊,不是補助給農民啊。"},{"start":531.294,"end":552.914,"text":"你知道嗎?好意變成今天變這個樣子欸!我非常謝謝委員的這些建議齁那我剛才說的齁產量的基準目前是沒辦法去動它的齁因為我不可能看到問題他去動這個產量的基準那產量的基準要用幾年或者是去頭去尾這個部分部長我給你一個第一"},{"start":554.216,"end":567.651,"text":"現在因為這件事情發生當然我們不能去動前面的彩蛋因為這個是一個制度好來現階段今年發生了我們增加評格點對不對是對增加評格點"},{"start":569.053,"end":569.973,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":588.459,"end":596.486,"text":"所以表示我們現在的制度是有狀況的 是有問題的 我們要重新檢討你如果繼續走下去 我跟你說 農民都批評了啦 農民說這樣我不喜歡我不要你強制給我水稻保險 你乾脆給我回歸到我的理賠機制嘛你給我我的災害救助嘛 會有這個狀況欸今天我們去會堪的時間 我告訴你 這個已經是台南全面囉"},{"start":615.262,"end":620.105,"text":"沒有全面,沒有全面,特定的地區,我們了解的是特定地區。我告訴你啦,現在就是幾個地方,這個新市,然後這個後壁、關田、新營、夏營、柳營,這幾個地方。這個地方,那後續還會陸續出來喔。這個都是主要的產區喔。主要的產區都已經發生問題了,你說沒轉名。"},{"start":643.666,"end":660.84,"text":"你活在自己的世界嗎?我覺得不是齁,因為相關的,剛才說道德病它是有一些特定的品種它發生的頻度會比較高。那有一些品種它發生但是發生的頻度比較低。那你如果去看它的確是有道德病但是道德病的影響程度是不一樣的。"},{"start":661.26,"end":663.061,"text":"這幾個地方都是我們去調查的我們親自去調查的這幾個地方已經發生了盜熱病已經發生了空炮彈然後我剛剛所講的部長麻煩就是增加平割點在各區增加平割點讓他整個的實質的產量可以適時呈現"},{"start":684.669,"end":699.448,"text":"這個很重要。第二個,要重新檢討所有水稻收入保險理賠的機制。這個機制是有問題的。你用這所謂的過去五年的產量,然後用今年產量去比較,這是有問題的。那根本沒有領悟一個人的名單給你擬背的啦。"},{"start":704.666,"end":709.171,"text":"這個拜託一定要檢討一個月!我不管啦!就一個月啦!老闆你多久?好!多久?好!那多久?多久?好!三個月!"},{"start":720.001,"end":722.042,"text":"三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":746.149,"end":746.39,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"152547","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152547","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c01bf95bbe75e7202396869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c5cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:27:32 - 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剛才跟委員唸的聖明法第三條一個可能性是免除刑之執行另外一個是罪行無效所以有兩種可能性看總統選擇哪一種如果他要行使特赦權的話所以有兩種因為社會大眾都有一點模糊也就是如果真的特赦那一些停審的案件會不會繼續來審查那分為兩個部分第一個可以連停審的部分全部"},{"start":325.972,"end":329.494,"text":"執行跟無罪就特赦這個部分但是停審的部分呢?他按照我們訴訟法規定該進行就進行還是要進行因為本行一定要"},{"start":345.521,"end":363.869,"text":"通過麥克風給社會大眾去了解因為最近這一兩個禮拜大家嚴肅的去討論這個問題甚至有說海角7號的錢要不要追回等等等等這些事件所以我們也希望讓社會大眾不要有疑慮說明清楚"},{"start":364.409,"end":382.67,"text":"說明清楚所以我們剛剛說的停審如果真的特赦包括免刑以及免罪就是完全特赦嘛齁但是停審的部分還是依照法律的程序在做是不是沒有錯是是如此嗎因為特赦他的效力不會他的射程不會及為判決確定的對"},{"start":383.911,"end":384.191,"text":"主席"},{"start":409.138,"end":409.298,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c06ac25420d9ba0c2296869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c5444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"13:20:29 - 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Kacaw委員：你回去也提供資料給我好了。現在在矯正署主管的這些監獄，在監獄裡面的受刑犯有多少是需要常常去醫院的？尤其是在臺中不是有直接跟醫院有連結的？對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：培德，它是一個……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：到底有多少人？我們就算那個人數就好了，對不對？他們都還要在那邊，他們的案子都還很小呢！他們都要在那邊。我在第8屆立委的時候曾經關心過一個原住民，就在臺中培德，他要申請保外就醫沒有准，陳水扁總統就可以准，結果他沒有多久，沒有幾個禮拜就過世了。所以它天差地別啊！對不對？所以這個部分也要讓總統瞭解啊！我們對他已經不錯了。你看法務部說：「我們對他已經不錯了！」他還可以直播，還可以當主持人，對不對？所以不要輕易地使用，要這樣建議總統，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：這是總統的職權。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員。","下一位請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","楊瓊瓔委員。請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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社民法規定它是不一定要 總統不一定要交給法務部來研議的 它是得得 所以它也有一種可能是 它可以完全不甩尼法務部 也不用交給你 它就直接去宣布按照社民法規定是這樣 是可以的那當然這樣的話就會變成 假使在520之前蔡總統要特赦陳水扁 那就要由總統府一間擔起所有的責任 是吧"},{"start":93.684,"end":120.2,"text":"各位報告這是總統的特別的權益對沒錯即使我們按照說明法也給原意太子是一個但是如果對啦但是如果交給行政院行政院再交給你們的話那當然你們就要共同的去負擔那未來後人講起這件歷史的公案你們也一起丟臉而已啦是不是各位報告我們法務部就是提供法律上法制上的建議啦"},{"start":121.981,"end":145.9,"text":"那法律怎麼規定怎麼做那是一個狀態是一個事實其實陳水扁該不該被特赦其實非常明確的就是到目前為止他還有四個案子還在審查中就根本就還是停止審判的那我要特別講到就是說其實特赦陳水扁他當然會變成一個高度的政治性的事件對不起把那個放上去"},{"start":146.701,"end":170.054,"text":"特赦陳水扁讓我們認為就是他的條件去跟過去幾任總統包含李登輝陳水扁自己本身還有馬英九他們都有行使他們特赦的權利但是我最近呢我看到應該是今天齁我看到這個聯合報的他們的他不是在報紙上應該是他的這個付費的一個評論我覺得他很有意思"},{"start":175.697,"end":179.801,"text":"他把過去幾任總統特赦的對象把它整理出來因為我就說所有你去行使特赦你都要未來去讓外界去檢驗讓後人去檢驗比如說李登輝他特赦了誰呢他特赦了美麗島的政治犯以現在來看的話他雖然也是一個政治性的特赦"},{"start":198.917,"end":210.983,"text":"但是呢大家會覺得至少對於臺灣的整個的民主政治跟政黨政治他是有正面性的一個功能好那陳水扁自己本身他的特赦呢他曾經特赦過百米炸彈客這個其實當時在社會上也有非常多的討論另外呢他還有去特赦他是因為有19個人他因為宗教因素他拒服兵役被判刑他也是在他的特赦範圍"},{"start":228.132,"end":254.031,"text":"我覺得這些都是我們再回在若干年後10年20年後我們再回來看一下他是不是值得被特赦的一個對象好我們再看那麼蔡英文總統他自己本身也行使過特赦權他曾經特赦過獵人王光祿先生因為當時他他被稱之為孝子獵人因為他這個是也是跟他原住民族的一個生活文化有關好所以"},{"start":256.212,"end":284.932,"text":"今天把這些把它列出來之後就會認為說總統他有這樣一個特赦令就是有這樣特赦權利但是他的一個特赦應該是針對不管一個多元文化或對於台灣的民主、法治的精神或人文關懷的精神是有所注意而有所交代的如果是特赦沉水扁說實在我剛才不是在講嗎希望"},{"start":286.153,"end":303.05,"text":"但我希望蔡總統不要在最後的時候去特赦陳水扁他們就算去特赦陳水扁的話那我相信我若是法務部委員希望你根本都不要來問我意見否則的話我還要跟你共同負擔這樣的一個責任所以特赦陳水扁如果是有交換條件的話"},{"start":304.631,"end":318.9,"text":"那麼對於司法來說對於司法來說就是你用一個司法的一個特赦然後交換你在政治上不管外界所講的如果蔡總統你今天去特赦陳水扁是不是去報答他過去對你的提攜之恩或者還是說有什麼樣的政治的利益交換這都是我們不願意看到的"},{"start":329.227,"end":348.927,"text":"那今天其實我們已經在520已經在倒數計時特赦沉水扁最近被甚囂塵上的傳者可是這也代表我們現在整個的在社會輿論方面其實我包含看到有一些綠營的民意代表也不認為這個時候是特赦沉水扁的好時候"},{"start":351.67,"end":371.648,"text":"所以社會沒有共識所以其實特赦沉水扁對於一個樹立就是總統他有這樣的一個特赦權利對台灣的未來也沒有任何的貢獻的時候其實我們會希望蔡總統在最後倒數計時的時候不要去做一些錯誤的事情"},{"start":372.088,"end":372.108,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152544","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152544","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c034f1e49023a3648096869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c5ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:05:20 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is believing。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，其實我們的ICDF國合會，在很多地方都有這種策展。"],["吳委員思瑤：也有扮演這種角色？好的。本席要和您回饋，並且和大家分享，就是本席擔任市議員的時候，推動、協助10位七年級的年輕人前進2015年的米蘭世博，因為臺灣沒有辦法以官方名義參與世博。但那一年開了一個公民團體的新型態，所以一群交通大學建築系的學生來找本席，那時候本席是市議員，他們說思瑤姐姐，我們要去米蘭世博，請大家一起來成就，","所以當時我們用公民力量自主參與國際社會，搭Mega Event的便車，從米蘭的OPTOGO，我們獲得很大的收穫。我們協助年輕世代在米蘭蓋起一個臺灣館，除了年輕的建築系學生，我們號召所有米蘭的外國留學生、臺商一起來，弄了一輛茶車在米蘭世博的會場奉茶，用臺灣最好的茶待客。其中包括館、車、樓，我們還設了一個臺灣館，把我們的米粉湯、洋蔥炒蛋、滷肉飯、珍珠奶茶帶到米蘭，因為那一年米蘭世博的主題是食物。","當初本席邀請了蔡英文，那時候她是主席，賴清德是臺南市長，本席也曾經邀請臺北市長柯文哲一起響應，獲得很好的效果，大家一起捐錢去做這件事，當時我們獲得很好的國際宣傳成果。因為時間有限，所以本席不再多說。在米蘭世博的經驗之下，從本席擔任立委之後，搭配每一次的Mega Event，和文化部成功催生，以文化為主題，在2021年的東京奧運，我們把展演、設計力、臺灣文化週帶到東京。","過去有視覺藝術、有設計的展覽，也有表演藝術，把我們最好的舞蹈創作、音樂創作帶去，連歌仔戲都可以和日本的藝術家柳美和合作，這是公眾外交，也是文化的力量，更是無限強大的臺灣民力。最後，我們也善用Mega Event打造臺灣的國家品牌。2024年，本席同樣督促文化部要前進巴黎奧運，目前也在如火如荼進行。下一個機會就是明年的大阪萬博，不曉得大家有沒有準備？用公眾外交、文化外交，用人民的力量、藝術文化的力量，搭配Mega Event，這是臺灣走出去的珍貴機會。","謝謝吳部長這幾年協助本席、支持本席，每當本席需要為公民朋友找資源的時候，外交部都全力協助。未來您將離開這個崗位，但在場的每一位外交部同仁，請把公眾外交、無限強大的臺灣民力、文化力扛在肩上，讓他們可以為臺灣打每一場漂亮的外交聖戰。部長，可以嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：可以，沒有問題，我們的同仁會承接這個責任，繼續和委員配合，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天很依依不捨，但未來我們還是會繼續見面，大家加油，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（13時25分）","繼續開會（13時30分）"],["主席：繼續開會。因為部長說待會不休息，等一下如果有準備便當，大家就在座位上先用餐。","接下來請郭昱晴委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.26659375,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.51034375,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.880968750000001,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.82971875,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.49596875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.829093750000002,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.02034375,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.994093750000005,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.30159375,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.039718750000006,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.34534375,"end":67.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.98659375,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.79659375,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.63971875,"end":74.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.63096875000001,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.93346875,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.36346875000001,"end":91.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.99971875,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.88909375,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.34971875000001,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.29284375,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.58159375,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.94846875000002,"end":166.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.94596875000002,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.70909375000002,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.56534375,"end":172.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.06721875000002,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.72096875,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.11659375000002,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.12471875,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.88284375,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.97971875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.83846875,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.63096875000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.26721875,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.93721875,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.27846875,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.05471875,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.31596875,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.07909375,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.72409375,"end":293.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.57596875,"end":295.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.58846875,"end":309.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.74346875000003,"end":300.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.02096875,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.88096875,"end":312.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.11284375,"end":316.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.71159375,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.65221875000003,"end":318.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.26659375,"end":385.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.13096875,"end":386.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.73846875000004,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.55221875,"end":398.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.75784375,"end":404.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.34784375000004,"end":403.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.17034375000003,"end":442.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.48909375000005,"end":473.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.81346875,"end":486.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.68471875000006,"end":492.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.81471875000005,"end":510.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.43221875000006,"end":530.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3234687500001,"end":533.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.5847187500001,"end":535.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.9809687500001,"end":546.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.5234687500001,"end":548.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.7553437500001,"end":549.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.97034375,"end":551.9109687499999},{"spe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加油繼續全力以赴為我們熱愛的台灣下一頁"},{"start":75.68,"end":103.243,"text":"我剛剛在隔壁的司法法制委員會我對於司法院跟法務部提出了質詢我非常難以接受中華民國的立法委員可以利用他立委的職權來號召國民黨籍的立委透過車輪戰在今天的外交委員會要逼迫外交部具狀給檢方爭取對於徐曉欣委員的泄露國家機密案來爭取不起訴"},{"start":104.676,"end":132.312,"text":"那吳宗憲委員呢他身為法律人卻做出這樣的司法指導期我剛剛在司法法治委員會我想司法院的代表秘書長也好法務部的代表黃次長也好都表情凝重深深以為不可那吳宗憲召委他試圖為自己的行為來說明他說因為啊外交部不是司法機關啊所以我們去給外交部一點點壓力不叫做干預司法"},{"start":133.342,"end":147.418,"text":"部長如果以吳宗憲委員要求今天請在野黨的委員來給予你們透過質詢形成壓力請外交部要聚眾給檢察官對於此案不起訴就是給你施壓了這是不是"},{"start":148.655,"end":148.935,"text":"所以部長即便您離開這個職位"},{"start":174.747,"end":179.915,"text":"不該低頭,未來承接責任的是在座的每一位有為有首的外交人員"},{"start":181.195,"end":204.487,"text":"就如同我送您的蜂蜜是密件就該封國家機密不能打折不能受制於政治的壓力好嗎我們繼續加油謝謝委員今天的主題其實我非常的有感而發我在2016年擔任立委之後我多次對吳釗燮部長提出來的其實是我對於公眾外交的倡議"},{"start":205.928,"end":227.661,"text":"他是台灣的外交新生路也是外交的新活路下一頁我這邊援引的是我2016年的質詢的文件現在在學外交的年輕世代大學生都會要去修公眾外交他又稱人民外交或稱公共外交他是多元外交的一環他是一個軟實力的展現透過文化透過傳播透過私部門"},{"start":230.703,"end":259.342,"text":"通過地方政府公民團體還有非政府組織對於國家形象的建構來創造一個台灣的國家品牌我想您非常認同下一頁也因為公眾外交可以成為台灣在中共無所不用其極的政治外交打壓之下去中心化去政治化我們可以讓國力有限民力無窮讓私部門代表台灣政府官方站出去而且公眾外交訴求的對象"},{"start":260.543,"end":264.206,"text":"第一是我們的NGO走出去接受外交部的支持以NGO的本質他們就是民間的團體政府不應該任何的這種"},{"start":289.735,"end":289.775,"text":"臺灣的父權"},{"start":308.923,"end":309.264,"text":"今天我們質詢的主題是WHA"},{"start":328.62,"end":338.326,"text":"過去我們都是在場外抗疫確實在中國打壓之下我們拿不到邀請函所以歷年的來到現場都有很多的醫療團體我這張照片秀出了還有陳時中前部長大家一起在場外讓國際在重要的WHA的開會的現場看到台灣的聲音聽見台灣的醫療成就這是before"},{"start":350.194,"end":358.978,"text":"但是我們導入了公眾外交after下一頁就是思瑤在2018年我剛當選立委我協助一群年輕的醫師跟年輕的設計團隊用一個策展的方式在日內瓦的這個會場旁邊找了一個策展的空間以台灣的醫療成就用一個Expo展覽的方式讓世界各國來開會的各國政要"},{"start":377.628,"end":389.839,"text":"我認為這樣的做法非常正向、非常有效未來是不是持續來協助往這方面來推進?我認為這個是非常好,我們外交部應該是朝這個方向繼續走"},{"start":390.62,"end":403.255,"text":"我希望策展就是一個最好說政策的方式走到國外讓大家 seeing is believing其實我們的ICDF我們的國和會也在很多的地方都有這個策展我跟您回饋要分享給大家我在當市議員的時候正因為我"},{"start":409.142,"end":431.614,"text":"推動協助了一群十個七年級的年輕人要前進2015年的米蘭世博台灣沒有辦法以官方的名義參與世博那一年開了一個公民團體的新的形態所以一群交通大學建築系的學生來找我那時候是市議員的吳思瑤說思瑤姊姊我們要去米蘭世博大家一起來成就"},{"start":432.714,"end":437.543,"text":"所以公民力量自主參與國際社會大Mega Event的變車從米蘭的OP2GO我們收到很大的收穫下一頁"},{"start":443.536,"end":472.919,"text":"所以我們協助年輕世代在米蘭蓋起了一個臺灣館是年輕的建築系學生我們號召所有米蘭的外國留學生臺商一起來我們弄一個車子就是茶車在米蘭士博的會場去奉茶臺灣最好的茶還有館車樓我們還設了一個臺灣館把下一頁把我們的米粉湯把我們的洋蔥炒蛋把我們的蘿蔔飯珍珠奶茶帶到米蘭去因為那一年米蘭士博的主題是食物"},{"start":474.12,"end":484.976,"text":"當初我邀請了蔡英文那時候是主席賴清德是台南市長我也曾經邀請是台北市長的柯文哲一起來響應獲得很好的效果而且大家一起來捐錢下一頁"},{"start":487.768,"end":502.079,"text":"所以我們獲得很好的國際宣傳的成果我時間有限我不再多說下一頁也在米蘭士博的經驗之下我擔任立委我搭配每一次的Mega Event我成功的跟文化部催生了在2021年的東京奧運以文化為主題我們把展演把設計力臺灣文化周帶到東京去下一頁"},{"start":510.866,"end":530.422,"text":"這都是過去有視覺藝術有設計的展覽下一頁有表演藝術把我們的最好的舞舞蹈的創作最好的音樂的創作連瓜喜都可以跟日本藝術家劉美和來合作這是公眾外交文化力量無限強大的台灣名利下一頁最後了"},{"start":531.423,"end":546.473,"text":"所以善用Mega Event打造台灣的國家品牌2024年我同樣的督促了文化部要前進巴黎奧運目前也在如火如荼的進行而下一個機會就是明年的"},{"start":547.8,"end":563.146,"text":"萬博大阪我不曉得大家有沒有準備公眾外交文化外交用人民的力量用藝術文化的力量搭配MEGA EVENT是台灣走出去很珍貴的機會"},{"start":564.486,"end":580.092,"text":"我謝謝吳部長這幾年協助我支持我每當我需要為公民朋友找資源的時候外交部全力協助但未來您離開了這個崗位在場每一位外交部的同仁請把公眾外交無限強大的台灣名利文化利"},{"start":581.107,"end":581.127,"text":"．吳思瑤"}]}},{"id":"152542","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152542","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c05fa1ab15fcdc8636ad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c5a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:06:26 - 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給予懲戒那個懲戒還包含他們個人之外還有家屬實施懲戒那過去因為你們是官員那現在是連這個一般的民眾他們只是在電視上面發表一些言論國台辦認為說你怎麼可以講說這個大陸高鐵沒有靠背你怎麼可以說這個大陸人買不起茶葉蛋還有認為說你在散步不時的言論那可是這個是在"},{"start":132.111,"end":145.018,"text":"這個520之前我認為他在520之前特地的對於我們一般的民眾他們就是民嘴而已然後給予這個懲戒那請問一下部長你未來是這個國安會秘書長你有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":146.246,"end":163.364,"text":"這個我們會仔細的來觀察就是說中國如果說在這方面不斷擴大的話到底會影響到多廣包括說我們的國人被制裁的這個國人要出門要過境等等的是不是會受到影響"},{"start":164.766,"end":178.467,"text":"就之前我所知就是除了人之外還有一些機構也被列入制裁那這個可能造成一些寒產的效應或者是實際參與的這種限制那所以這個部分我們必須要持續的來觀察"},{"start":179.528,"end":203.292,"text":"因為他是在520前特地宣布了,所以我認為他這一個要企圖利用這個來影響這520之前的這個兩岸關係那而且他們不是這個官員啊,比如說像您或是像我們是民意代表就算了,他們是一般的民眾啊他們可以對這樣子一般民眾來做出這種懲戒,而且還包括他的家屬我認為這是非常嚴重的一個挑釁的一個做法"},{"start":204.729,"end":230.488,"text":"我相信那個我們相關的機關會針對這個事情來做出回應我們台灣畢竟是一個言論自由的國家不管是支持哪一個政黨那這個言論的自由不應該有任何的限縮更何況是從外國想要來限縮我們的言論自由這個是絕對不能夠受到他們的影響是啊因為這個是不分來率喔我剛剛講那個五個名單是不分來率的那可是呢這不分來率都被"},{"start":230.988,"end":231.349,"text":"臺灣民主基金會 董事長"},{"start":255.507,"end":272.835,"text":"這個是我們的立法院的院長對啊那目前就是我們的韓國瑜韓院長嘛那結果韓國瑜韓院長當這個董事長的這個機構台灣民主基金會也被他列為臺獨頑固分子我不曉得我們的韓國瑜韓院長有什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":273.925,"end":297.288,"text":"那我再請教一下這個部長在5月18號有國民黨跟民眾黨的立委要登太平島那我記得在一個月之前你有說過就是說當時就是說有這個國民黨跟民眾黨的立委說這個希望要求這個總統能夠登太平島那時候你是講說太平島是中華民國的主權那個無庸置疑"},{"start":298.168,"end":310.316,"text":"兩岸在南海的爭議不斷地升高的時候我們應該用和平的方式來解決這個問題而非製造問題請教一下一個月之後部長的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":328.248,"end":332.87,"text":"所以在520之前這些國民黨跟民眾黨立委要去太平島您認為這個時機還是不太好我覺得不是很好但是至於說他們要去這個是委員自己的這個決定"},{"start":356.317,"end":360.08,"text":"當時這個國安局長蔡明彥蔡局長他也是在這邊然後大家也是問到說這個太平島的會有一些風險性在因為他說我們的這個國軍的運輔船曾經有這個被這個中國騷擾過"},{"start":385.638,"end":414.487,"text":"那請問一下齁這一趟齁這一個包含這一個20位的國民黨跟民眾黨列委過去要去太平島我們有提供什麼樣的一些援助或是說要避免因為畢竟吶這個航程有1600公里齁有沒有什麼樣的維安或是飛航上面的一些安全我們要去幫他們注意的這個部分我沒有確定啦齁因為這個是國防部在處理的在外交部這邊並沒有涉入所以這部分就是跟外交部沒有關係就對了"},{"start":415.307,"end":419.029,"text":"國安局長提到有被騷擾的一個過程其實我也擔心雖然說黨派立場是不太一樣的那不曉得飛航這麼遠這1600公里不知道會不會被中國的軍機、軍艦做騷擾我不知道你們有沒有預判過會有這種情況"},{"start":440.744,"end":458.724,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提問我們外交部這邊是沒有跟國防部討論到相關的議題也沒有跟國安局討論到相關的議題但是如果說從過去這兩三年中國的戰機在騷擾其他國家的這種"},{"start":459.525,"end":459.725,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":483.018,"end":483.158,"text":"那可是..."},{"start":503.141,"end":528.069,"text":"您也是認為說目前要過去的話時機是不適合的而且對於這個捍衛這個臺北島是臺灣中華民國的族群實際上也沒有任何這個幫助就現階段而言那因為部長應該是最後一次這個在以外交部部長的身份來備詢那未來希望到這個國安會繼續這個堅守您的任務您的崗位我們會一起站在一起的謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0c25babd6e7cb5125ad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c510497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:57:46 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- 12:46:24","影片長度":"00:11:17","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":677,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:46:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:35:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時35分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。這兩天部長的「林北」要跟你吵到底，引起非常多爭議，我也看到你在媒體受訪時的說法，但部長是用外交部的官方社群平臺來發言。以一個外交部長的身分，用外交部的社群平臺說「林北」一定跟你吵到底，部長，你覺得合適嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於這件事情，我今天早上已經說明過幾次了，就是在上個禮拜五的最後一場媒體茶敘裡面，媒體聯誼會的會長用這個幽默來給我，我也是用幽默的方式來呈現。"],["王委員鴻薇：瞭解，媒體可能跟你開玩笑、給你封號，但是你用外交部的官方社群去講「林北」一定吵到底，你覺得合適嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於……"],["王委員鴻薇：合適不合適？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於社群媒體的方式，就是social media，這個不是一個正式的管道……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你是在跟大家social？這是官方的社群平臺，不是你個人的社群平臺吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於這個部分，我今天早上已經講過好幾次了，就是媒體對我的這個幽默，我用幽默的方式來回應。"],["王委員鴻薇：媒體可以對你幽默，但是你可以在官方社群平臺這樣放鬆和放肆嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：媒體跟你幽默，OK啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：這就是一個social media上面所呈現的一個幽默。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你覺得很合適？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個就是社群媒體上面所呈現的一個幽默感。"],["王委員鴻薇：你覺得合不合適嘛？你覺得合適你就講合適嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：我想這個部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：以後大家都比照辦理啊！以後我們的次長也可在官方的社群平臺說「林北」怎樣、「林北」怎樣，對不對？我們女姓就說「恁祖媽」怎樣，可不可以？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想有關……"],["王委員鴻薇：可不可以？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想有關於我們臺灣鄉下，因為我來自鄉下……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要扯鄉下嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要扯鄉下！"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分就是一般人在稱呼自己的時候，以前我們也有人稱呼自己說是「爺們」，那為什麼「爺們」就可以，「林北」就不行？我想這個方式這樣子不好！"],["王委員鴻薇：公私不分啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有公私不分！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，這另外再跟你請教。","接下來，520之後你要到國安會擔任秘書長，請問一下，現在新發布的副秘書長林飛帆先生是您推薦的嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：並不是我推薦，但是我知道這個任命的過程，我也認為他非常適才適所。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以在程序上，你是先同意接任國安會秘書長，然後林飛帆您是後來得知他要擔任副秘書長，是吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：是後來得知的，但是我也覺得非常的好。"],["王委員鴻薇：喔，這麼好！請問一下，林飛帆擔任副秘書長，他會負責哪一方面的工作啊？"],["吳部長釗燮：會跟外交方面有關。我們進去之後……"],["王委員鴻薇：他以後負責外交方面？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們進去之後會做一些……"],["王委員鴻薇：全部的外交方面？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：哪一方面？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們進去之後會再做一些很細緻的分工。"],["王委員鴻薇：基本上他是負責外交方面？"],["吳部長釗燮：會有外交跟其他方面，因為人數很少，所以必須去做很精密的分工，讓大家的負擔都能夠平均。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為林飛帆先生沒有任何外交、國防，甚至連公務機關的經驗都沒有，所以你認為他可以成為你的得力助手，還幫他「掛保證」？"],["吳部長釗燮：嗯，他在……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒關係啊！既然你要幫他「掛保證」，反正這都有紀錄，你就幫他「掛保證」。"],["吳部長釗燮：他在過去這段時間有到美國的智庫去進修，也有到很多國家去進行演講、進行交流……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們認為他能勝任，是不是？"],["吳部長釗燮：不只是NGO……"],["王委員鴻薇：能不能？"],["吳部長釗燮：甚至是跟政府部門或者是國會……"],["王委員鴻薇：能不能勝任嘛？你連這句話都不……"],["吳部長釗燮：我認為沒有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你認為他能勝任，你幫他「掛保證」，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：我認為沒有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這個都是可以留為紀錄的。","接下來要回到外交部現在的問題，上個星期您接受廣播節目的訪問，大家也知道立陶宛正在進行選舉，所以立陶宛總統就拋出說想要把原來我們臺灣辦事處的名稱改成臺北辦事處，我有注意到您在上週接受媒體採訪的時候也「掛保證」說不會改變，是不是？"],["吳部長釗燮：上次是說，依照目前的情勢來看的話，應該是不會改變，因為他們的總統是不涉入內閣權力的，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我知道，其實我有聽，您有幾個理由……"],["吳部長釗燮：所以總統的發言是一個選舉的發言。"],["王委員鴻薇：你說他們不是總統制等等之類的。","部長，我請教，這是一個非常重要的外交跟政治上的判斷，如果未來極為不幸的，立陶宛在經過這場選舉之後，真的把我們的臺灣辦事處改成臺北辦事處，請問你會不會辭職以示負責？因為我剛剛有講，這是很重要的……"],["吳部長釗燮：這是一個假設性的問題，我相信我們外交部所有同仁都會努力去讓這個事情不會發生，我們甚至是預期到……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你是說以後發生是歸外交部，不干你國安會的事囉？是這樣嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們已經預期到他們10月會有國會議員的選舉，國會議員的選舉就是他們重組內閣的時候，針對各個政黨，我們都保持非常密切的聯繫，所以10月……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以10月之後不一定？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是，10月之後應該也不會有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道你講不會被改變嘛！所以我說，你「掛保證」的事情，你為什麼不敢拿出自己的烏紗帽保證呢？這是很重要的政治判斷耶！你如果覺得它有可能、我們努力，這也是一種說法，可是你說不會被改變啊！你講得這麼斬釘截鐵，所以……"],["吳部長釗燮：我們的努力就是會避免這種事情發生。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你現在不敢講說，假使有這樣子的不幸事情發生，因為我們……"],["吳部長釗燮：你已經說是「假使」了，所以這是hypothetical……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們立陶宛啤酒也喝了、我們立陶宛半導體的技術也送給他們了，我們幾乎都是儘量地配合，在這樣的狀況之下，我們的臺灣辦事處還會被改名！那請問一下，現在你還是外交部長，你都不用負任何政治責任嗎？等到變了以後，是歸外交部的事情，說：已經跟你們講了喔！外交部，請你們用盡力氣！"],["吳部長釗燮：就已經跟委員說了，我們會避免這種事情發生。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以啊！我現在問了，你還是不敢負政治責任！這就是口惠！"],["吳部長釗燮：我們會努力去避免這個事情發生。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們再看下一個，因為最近也討論到我們援助烏克蘭的部分，你們也控告了徐巧芯委員，但是我要就教部長，事實上從111年開始，我們就在援助烏克蘭，111年都是直接性的援助，包含對學校及民生基礎設施、發電機及能源設備等等之類的，到了112年有很大的改變，這些東西統統不是密件，因為這也都是你們提供給我們研究室的資料。也就是在112年的時候，其實就有很多是用第三國的方式去援助烏克蘭，包含我們跟波蘭的合作、包含我們跟立陶宛的合作、包含我們跟捷克的合作。如果以111年看起來，事實上我們是可以直接去援助烏克蘭的，到了112年，我們就跟第三國合作，那麼請問一下，如果我們可以直接援助烏克蘭，為什麼要經過第三國？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題是，我們跟波蘭、跟立陶宛、跟捷克的合作，其實並不會成為機密，我剛剛講了，這些東西都是你們提供給我們的。好！當時你們說徐巧芯委員洩漏密件有危及國家外交的問題呢？說是因為這樣會給捷克帶來困擾。那麼徐巧芯委員也特別提出來了，3月底捷克的官方期刊就已經登載出相關的計畫，所以第一個，捷克根本不覺得困擾。第二個，如果今天你擔心捷克發生困擾，那立陶宛會不會困擾呢？波蘭會不會困擾呢？顯然你們也不擔心他們困擾，然後也把這樣的計畫提供給我們。所以請教一下，為什麼徐巧芯所提供的要成為密件？看不出它何密之有啊！你們所提出來的援助烏克蘭計畫，我們早就在做，而且你們根本是敲鑼打鼓地在做！還有一個是透過第三國，第三國他們都沒有在擔心這些事情，然後你們用這個理由來說這個是密件！所以現在大家質疑的就是：它到底何密之有？你要把它列為密件呢？請回答！"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員提出這些問題，在111年的時候，這些小額的援助是因為我們能夠直接跟這些地方的政府來進行溝通，他們跟我們提出需求之後，是用一般人民的援款以及政府的部分預算來提供給他們，但是涉及烏克蘭本身還有其他很多地方，我們是沒有辦法reach out的，它就必須要透過烏克蘭周圍這些跟我們也很友好、也很瞭解他們的國家來進行協助。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那請問一下，徐巧芯委員所提的，你們認為它是密件，到底它何密之有，你們要把它列為密件？"],["吳部長釗燮：這已經說明過了。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講了，其他第三國也統統都有揭露啊！他們有擔心嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是不同的方式，也跟委員說明過了。"],["王委員鴻薇：捷克有來抗議說：你們怎麼說我們幫助你呢？對不對？捷克沒有抗議啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：其實如果有注意看到CHTI的執行長前幾天覺得自己被我們國內這些相關人士所誣衊，他感到非常的傷心、感到非常的遺憾，就可以理解到這種說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：他不是針對揭露他協助臺灣援助烏克蘭嘛！他不是在抗議這一點嘛！他有抗議這一點嗎？欸！就事論事！"],["吳部長釗燮：他們不是跟我們抗議，他是就這些事情發表他的看法，但是有關於我們跟捷克或者其他友好國家一起進入烏克蘭，這裡面有涉及到烏克蘭政府態度的問題，所以我們有很多必須用機密的方式處理，請委員瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：不過你們不能全部都是密件，如果按照你給我的資料，你們所謂的密件，真的沒有什麼秘密可言啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：但我們也提供給委員了，希望讓委員瞭解。"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長請轉達，CHTI說他們覺得受到誣衊，事實上應該沒有，是他們接收的訊息有問題，所以外交部理當把它說明清楚，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：……但是他們……"],["主席：沒關係，因為你剛剛已經公開講了，你剛剛已經公開講了，這非常嚴重，剛剛有講到宏都拉斯，也有講到其他國家，如果我們被其他國家或者跟我們合作的單位覺得有問題的時候，其實還是解釋清楚會比較好。","好，接下來請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.5959687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.27096875,"end":3.9290937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.329093750000002,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.919718750000001,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.383468750000002,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.98659375,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.39096875,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.64346875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.044093750000002,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.20846875,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.49096875,"end":31.199093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.620968750000003,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.15221875,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.41721875,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.454718750000005,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.727843750000005,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.81221875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.96409375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.031593750000006,"end":50.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.73159375,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.009093750000005,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.52284375,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.02471875,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.15034375,"end":79.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.79909375000001,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.43534375,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.40471875,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.59034375,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.03284375000001,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.49659375,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.94784375,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.56346875000001,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.31846875000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.36784375,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.62846875000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.94846875,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.02409375,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.89221875,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.84971875000002,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.67221875,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.42284375,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.92846875,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.96534375000002,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.21784375000001,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.68159375000002,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.12721875,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.56596875000002,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.56971875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.11784375000002,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.42096875000001,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.77471875,"end":183.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.88846875000002,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.66034375,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.12846875000002,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.82034375,"end":187.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.15784375,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.56659375,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.43971875000003,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.35846875000001,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.21346875,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.23034375,"end":211.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.15846875000003,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.42784375000002,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.77659375000002,"end":223.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.79346875000002,"end":226.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.61159375000003,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":226.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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media那這個不是一個正式的管道這是官方的社群平台不是你個人的社群平台吧"},{"start":80.225,"end":96.384,"text":"有關於這個部分我今天早上已經講過好幾次了就是說媒體對我的這個幽默那我用幽默的方式來回應但是你可以在官方社群平台這樣的放鬆跟放肆嗎這就是一個社交媒體上面所呈現的一個幽默"},{"start":98.964,"end":102.548,"text":"這個就是社群媒體上面所呈現的一種默感以後大家都比照顧辦理啊以後我們的次長也可以在官方的那個社群平台拎杯怎樣拎杯怎樣對不對我們女性拎粥啊怎樣可不可以可不可以我想有關於我們台灣鄉下因為我來自鄉下"},{"start":118.706,"end":121.25,"text":"你不要扯鄉下嘛你不要扯鄉下部長你喔就是公私不分啦公私不分公私不分啦好來部長"},{"start":135.714,"end":148.621,"text":"部長在另外再跟你請教接下來520之後你要到國安會擔任秘書長那請問一下現在新發布的副秘書長林飛帆先生是您推薦的嗎"},{"start":150.534,"end":176.841,"text":"並不是我推薦但是我知道這個任命的這個過程我也認為說他非常的自在自說在程序上你是先同意接任國安會秘書長然後林飛帆是後來然後您得知他要擔任副秘書長是吧是後來得知但是我覺得說非常的好請問一下這麼好請問一下林飛帆擔任副秘他會負責哪一方面的工作啊"},{"start":178.022,"end":178.082,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":192.803,"end":196.705,"text":"所以秘書長林飛帆先生因為他沒有任何的外交、國防甚至連公務機關的經驗都沒有所以你認為他可以成為你的得力助手"},{"start":214.853,"end":227.783,"text":"他在過去這段時間他有到美國的智庫去做進修那他也到很多的國家去進行演講去進行交流甚至是NGO甚至是跟政府部門或者是國會我認為沒有問題"},{"start":231.145,"end":252.48,"text":"你認為他能勝任你幫他掛保證我認為沒有問題因為這個都可以留為記錄的另外一個要回到外交部現在的問題在上個星期您接受廣播節目因為大家也知道立陶宛因為正在進行選舉所以呢立陶宛總統就拋出了一個就是說要把"},{"start":253.22,"end":266.271,"text":"原來的我們的臺灣辦事處的名稱想要把它改成臺北辦事處那麼我有注意到您在上週接受媒體的採訪的時候你也掛保證對不對你也掛保證說不會改變是不是"},{"start":269.555,"end":273.279,"text":"上次是說依照目前的這個情勢來看的話應該是不會改變因為他們的總統是不涉入到那個內閣的這個權利所以總統的這個發言是一個選舉的這個發言"},{"start":287.506,"end":303.551,"text":"部長我請教這個是一個非常重要的外交跟政治上的判斷那麼如果未來極為不幸的立陶宛在經過這場選舉之後那麼真的他把我們的台灣辦事處改成台北辦事處之後請問"},{"start":305.111,"end":318.887,"text":"你會不會辭職以事負責因為我剛剛講這是重要的這是一個假設性的問題我相信我們外交部的所有同仁都會努力去讓這個事情是不會發生的所以你是說以後發生是歸外交部是不敢領國安會的事囉"},{"start":320.508,"end":332.257,"text":"我們已經預期到就是說他們10月會有那個國會議員的選舉那國會議員的選舉就是重組他們的內閣的時候那針對各個政黨我們都保持非常密切的聯繫所以10月之後應該也不會有問題"},{"start":335.973,"end":353.912,"text":"所以啊我知道你講不會被改變嘛那我說你掛保證的事情你為什麼不敢不敢拿你的烏紗帽呢這是很重要的政治判斷欸啊你如果覺得說他有可能我們努力這也是一種說法你說不會被改變啊啊你講得這麼斬釘截鐵"},{"start":355.814,"end":365.858,"text":"所以你現在你現在不敢講說假使假使有這樣子不幸的事情發生因為我們立陶宛我們立陶宛啤酒也喝了我們立陶宛半導體的技術也送給他們了我們幾乎都是盡量的配合在這樣的狀況之下我們的這個台灣辦事處還會被改名那請問一下現在你還是外交部長那你都不要又負任何的政治責任嗎"},{"start":384.545,"end":385.786,"text":"已經跟委員說了我們會避免這種事情發生我們會努力去避免這個事情發生"},{"start":405.774,"end":421.379,"text":"因為最近我們也大概討論到就是我們援助烏克蘭的部分那麼也特別提到因為你們也控告了這個徐巧欣委員但是我要就教於部長了因為我們事實上從111年開始我們就在援助烏克蘭"},{"start":423.24,"end":443.416,"text":"111年呢,都是我們直接性的援助,比如說包含對學校啦,民生基礎設施啦,對發電的這個能源設備等等之類的。到了112年,它有很大的改變。這些東西啊,通通不是秘見,因為這也都是你們提供給我們那個研究室的資料。"},{"start":444.176,"end":464.765,"text":"也就在112年的時候其實我們就很多用第三國的方式去援助烏克蘭包含我們跟波蘭的合作包含我們跟立陶宛的合作包含我們跟捷克的合作那當然其實若以111年看起來我們事實上是可以直接去援助烏克蘭的"},{"start":466.041,"end":488.997,"text":"那到了112年我們就跟了第三國合作那請問一下如果我們可以直接援助烏克蘭為什麼要經過第三國這是第一個問題第二個問題我們跟波蘭跟立陶宛跟捷克其實我們跟他們的合作並不會成為機密我剛講這些東西都是你們所提供給我們的好"},{"start":489.597,"end":511.908,"text":"那當時你們說為什麼徐曉新委員你要這個洩漏密件有什麼有什麼樣的危及國家的外交的問題呢說因為這會給捷克帶來困擾那徐曉新委員他也特別提出來了3月底捷克的官方的他的期刊就已經登出這個相關的計劃所以第一個捷克根本不覺得困擾第二個"},{"start":514.369,"end":521.292,"text":"如果今天你擔心捷克發生困擾那立陶宛會被困擾呢波蘭會被困擾呢顯然你們也不擔心他困擾然後也提供給我們這樣的計畫所以請教一下為什麼許曉欣所提供的那個要成為密件看不出他有何密之有啊你們所提出來的源自烏克蘭我們早就在做你們根本挑鑼打鼓的在做第二個透過第三國"},{"start":542.042,"end":542.162,"text":"請回答"},{"start":556.755,"end":577.463,"text":"非常謝謝委員所提出來的這些問題在111億年的時候這些小額的援助是因為我們能夠直接跟這些地方的政府來進行溝通那他們跟我們提出需求之後那時候用一般人民的這個援款以及政府的部分的這個預算來提供給他們"},{"start":578.243,"end":606.256,"text":"那但是涉及到那個烏克蘭本身還有其他很多的這個地方我們是沒有辦法reach out而他就必須要透過那個烏克蘭周圍這些跟我們也很友好也很了解他們的這些國家來進行協助好那請問一下徐曉鑫委員所你們認為他是密件到底他何密自有你們要把他列入密件我剛講我們其他第三國通通也都有揭露啊他們有擔心嗎"},{"start":609.657,"end":630.289,"text":"傑克有來抗議說你們怎麼說我們幫助你呢?對不對?傑克沒有抗議啊!其實如果說注意看到CHTI的執行長在前幾天他覺得說他被我們國內的這些相關的人士所污蔑還感到非常的傷心感到非常的遺憾"},{"start":630.609,"end":632.511,"text":"他不是針對說揭露他協助台灣來援助烏克蘭嗎?他不是在抗議這一點嗎?他有抗議這一點嗎?就是論事,對不對?"},{"start":645.987,"end":646.167,"text":"請委員瞭解"},{"start":664.918,"end":666.701,"text":"我們也提供給委員的希望能夠讓委員來了解"}]}},{"id":"152538","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152538","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c054ebcce332c7dd4396869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e45177d7761fde0a4875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:28:42 - 12:40:55","影片長度":"00:12:13","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":733,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:40:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:28:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1007,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時28分）主席好。有請秘書長，還有次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長、秘書長好。剛剛前面幾個委員都已經提到了，在我們歷任總統的特赦案件大概有8件，在蔡總統任內，到目前為止有2件特赦案，這2件特赦案一個是在2021年針對原住民獵人王光祿獵捕野生動物案，另外一個則是2022年針對兩位將官因為微薄的加菜金而違法的餐費核銷案，我們再看看前面幾任總統他們特赦的案件，請問在這8個案子當中，有哪一個是針對嚴重貪污、舞弊、收賄的案子來進行特赦的？雖然我們現在看到的是報載的新聞，蔡總統可能在他卸任之前會針對陳水扁進行特赦，在剛剛其他委員的詢問當中，也知道法務部到現在為止沒有收到什麼指示，我想請教，如果按照剛剛次長的說法，是不是核發證明是非常快速的，可能一個小時之內就可以做好？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們接受行政院的指示或者是總統的指示後，我們要給予這個證明，這個證明其實就是一個書面而已，製作的時間不會太長，不需要太長的時間。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以就是說可以非常迅速的，也許短短的幾分鐘，反正已經是一個定型化的表格，填上一個名字……"],["黃次長謀信：它是書面沒錯，但是它有一個送達的問題，我們必須要送達給受赦免人，因為這是赦免法上規定，另外有一個送達時間的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是說最慢時間也是24小時之內就可以完畢這樣的作業流程，按照剛剛的說法，其實你們的作業是絕對來得及的，就算是蔡總統在5月19號才告訴你們，請你們研議要做這個特赦，你們在非常短的時間都可以做得到的。","接下來我想請教一下，這也是今天大家討論到有關於赦免法第三條的問題，如果蔡總統會針對陳水扁進行赦免的話，那可能會是什麼樣的一個狀態？我比較擔心的是，如果蔡總統是依據赦免法第三條，有特殊情形，將罪行都赦免。那麼這是不是代表，陳水扁之後如果要出來參選，還是有這個可能性的？"],["黃次長謀信：如果罪行都赦免的話，基本上包括他的褫奪公權也會被赦免，至於可不可以參選，要看我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：現行的法規。"],["黃次長謀信：對，公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條有一些例外的規定，不能夠參選。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是現在他已經沒有任何的罪行了，所以就法律的規定上面來講，他是極有可能會參選，不無這個可能性，所以這也是講到，如果蔡總統今天行使這個赦免權，如果最後他採取的是以特殊情形的狀況，將罪行都赦免，讓陳水扁有可能再參選的機會，這個背後就有非常嚴重的政治上面的考慮，這個不無可能性。","我接下來想要再談的是，大家也很關心，如果說特赦是依照赦免法第三條前段的規定，就是只免除其刑，那麼接下來停審中的這4個案子是不是要恢復執行的問題。剛剛秘書長一直在談到這是屬於4個法官的審判核心問題，我想請教秘書長，所謂的審判核心沒有界限嗎？法官獨立審判的權力，難道這個權力沒有節制、沒有界限嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：原則上這個是屬於審判核心，基於審判獨立，由個案承審的法官……"],["翁委員曉玲：很好，您剛剛說的審判核心、審判獨立，我想請教一下，你們司法院自己都有頒布各級法院辦案期限實施要點，你們做這樣的限期法院的辦案期限要點難道沒有違憲嗎？這沒有侵害到法官的審判獨立、審判核心嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那個是就一般通常的情形。"],["翁委員曉玲：那陳水扁的案子有什麼例外的情形嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個就回復到個案……"],["翁委員曉玲：他的個案到底跟別的案子有什麼不同？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為每個案件還是會有一些……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我必須要講，這是一個非常嚴肅的問題，這個嚴肅的問題就涉及到大家對於司法的信任，對於司法的公信力，到目前為止大家都非常懷疑是否臺灣的司法還有公信力？說實在話，赦免這件事情是屬於總統憲法上的權力，我不願多做評論，他有他的考量，但是我認為今天這個特赦的案子，我剛剛說了，這個特赦案我不願意再多做評論，但是我更在乎的是陳水扁保外就醫的事情。陳水扁從2015年保外就醫至今已經展延了38次，他的保外就醫時間長達9年，在這一段牢獄外的生活，他可以說是多采多姿，他既幫很多候選人站臺拉票、主持電臺節目，又開直播演講，還幫他的兒子陳致中市議員的競選造勢晚會，又登記參選不分區的候選人，然後到總統府前面請願，並擔任他女兒的訴訟律師，還出席新書發表會、參與校友會活動，這些種種的行為表現得比健康人都還更活躍，但是他就是有本事不回到監獄去服刑。","我必須說，法務部、矯正署、臺中監獄你們放任受刑人陳水扁在外面逍遙法外，利用保外就醫的名義在外面任意破壞我們司法的程序，我不客氣地講，你們的作為是臺灣司法之恥！你們還能夠堅持司法是社會正義的最後一道防線嗎？在你們的眼中還有法律之前人人平等嗎？現在的司法人員是怎麼樣，你們的腦中裡面是只有權貴司法嗎？不比較還不覺得陳水扁的行徑有多麼惡劣，你們知道在2020年所公布的兩公約執行情形第三次的國家報告裡面顯示，保外就醫期間的死亡比率高達25%，也就是每4位保外就醫的受刑人中，就有1位可能會死亡，最後回到監獄的人數大概15%左右。監察院在2020年的時候也曾經針對矯正署做過一份糾正報告，也就是現在的監獄啟動保外醫治的裁量標準以及空間過於籠統模糊，我們常常看到非常多的新聞報導有講，受刑人在獄中都已經生病得非常嚴重了，才送到醫院去醫治，在很短、大概一、兩月的時間可能就會往生。相形之下，陳水扁今天這樣的行為，為什麼我們社會大眾沒有辦法看得下去、沒有辦法接受？就是他已經太偏離常態了！","本席在就任立法委員後所發的第一份公文就是給臺中監獄，請他們要去探訪陳水扁且每三個月提出一次訪視報告，有做到嗎？提不出來！連要求最基本的書面報告也沒有，打個電話去問陳水扁你好不好，這種種的行為，獄方、矯正署、法務部，你們對這件事情實在是怠惰，你們真的已經把司法的公信力、司法的法律正當程序踩在腳底下，這是讓人民無法接受的。","我必須講，法院是審判機關，司法行政機關是一個執法機關，不要忘記你們的所作所為代表的都是司法正義。那4位法官到目前為止為什麼長期停審，而臺中監獄也可以長期的放任陳水扁一直在外保外就醫？這對大多數的民眾而言，是真的早就看不下去了！我實在不知道你們為什麼這樣放任陳水扁？我們口口聲聲說希望能夠維持司法獨立、維持司法正義，可是你們所做所為都是在侵害司法。這些年來，其實臺灣民眾已經對司法的信任度大幅降低，司法的公信力早已破產，不客氣地說，你們這些執法機關、審判機關難辭其咎，我非常期待你們能夠深刻檢討，當然接下來還要看是不是蔡總統真的會在卸任之前特赦陳水扁，可是如果他的特赦是指免刑的情況之下，那接下來4個案子一定要儘速啟動審判，否則根本無法向民眾交代，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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剛說了審判核心、審判獨立那我想請教一下你們司法院自己都有頒布各級法院的辦案期限的實施要點那你們這樣做的這個限期法院法官的辦案的這樣的期限要點難道沒有違憲嗎這沒有侵害到法官的審判獨立嗎審判核心嗎"},{"start":337.112,"end":350.442,"text":"那個是就一般通常的情形那陳雪扁的案子有什麼例外的情形嗎這個就回復到就是個案他的個案到底跟別的案子有什麼不同因為"},{"start":351.55,"end":369.436,"text":"每個案件它還是會有一些是我必須要講這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這個嚴肅的問題就涉及到大家對於司法的信任對於司法的公信力大家到目前為止非常懷疑是否我們台灣的司法還有公信力說實在話赦免這件事情屬於總統的這個憲法上的權利"},{"start":378.464,"end":379.525,"text":"陳水扁從2015年保外就醫至今已經展延了38次"},{"start":404.96,"end":425.548,"text":"她的保外就業時間長達9年在這一段牢獄外的生活她可以說是多彩多姿啊她既幫助很多的候選人去參台去站台拉票主持電台節目又開直播演講幫她的兒子陳志忠市議員的競選肇事"},{"start":427.529,"end":451.417,"text":"晚會．然後又登記參選不分區的候選人．然後到總統府前面請願．然後幫助他的女兒．擔任他女兒的訴訟律師．還出席新書發表會．參與社友會活動．種種的這些行為表現．比健康人都還更活躍．但是他就有本事．不回到監獄去服刑"},{"start":453.203,"end":475.823,"text":"我必須說,法務部、矯正署、台中監獄你們放任受刑人陳水扁在外面逍遙法外利用保外就醫的名義在外面任意的破壞我們司法的程序你們的作為,不客氣的講是台灣司法之恥"},{"start":477.455,"end":492.742,"text":"你們還能堅持司法是社會正義的最後一道防線嗎?在你們的眼中還有法律之前人人平等嗎?我真的認為現在的司法人員是怎麼樣?你們的腦中裡面是只有權貴司法嗎?"},{"start":496.462,"end":522.289,"text":"不比較還不覺得說陳水扁的這個行徑有多麼的惡劣你們知道在2020年這個所公布的兩公約執行情形第三次的國家報告裡面顯示保外就醫的期間死亡的比例是高達25%也就是有四位保外就醫的這個受刑人有一位可能就會死亡"},{"start":523.666,"end":542.846,"text":"那麼回到監獄的人數大概差不多15%左右監察院在2020年的時候其實也曾經做過一個糾正報告也提出這個矯正署也糾正矯正署也就是現在的監獄他啟動保外醫治的材料標準以及空間過於籠統模糊"},{"start":545.008,"end":562.935,"text":"常常我們看到非常多的新聞報導有講這個受刑人在獄中都已經快要這個生命非常嚴重了然後才送到醫院去醫治在很短大概一兩月的時間可能就會往生"},{"start":564.864,"end":591.976,"text":"相形之下陳水扁今天這樣的行為為什麼我們社會大眾沒有辦法看下去看得下去沒有辦法接受就算他已經太偏離常態了本席在就任立法委員的我發的第一份公文就是給台中監獄請他們要提出去探訪陳水扁的種種的每一次每三個月一次的訪視報告"},{"start":594.232,"end":603.06,"text":"有做到嗎提不出來連要求最基本的書面報告也沒有打個電話去問說陳雪碧你好不好種種的行為這個預發和這個矯正署法務部你們對這件事情實在是怠惰你們已經真的把這個司法的這個"},{"start":619.318,"end":624.72,"text":"法院是審判機關司法行政機關是執法機關不要忘記你們所作所為代表的都是司法正義法官"},{"start":647.386,"end":672.056,"text":"到目前為止那四位法官到目前為止為什麼長期的停審而臺中監獄呢也可以長期的放任陳水扁一直在外保外就醫對大多數的民眾而言是真的早就看不下去了我實在不知道就是你們為什麼這麼樣的放任陳水扁"},{"start":673.308,"end":694.041,"text":"我們口口聲聲的希望能夠維持司法獨立維持司法正義可是你們所作所為都是在侵害司法這些年來其實台灣民眾已經對司法的信任度大幅的降低那司法的公信力早已破產"},{"start":695.691,"end":721.779,"text":"不客氣的說你們這些執法機關、審判機關難辭其咎我非常期待你們能夠深刻檢討當然接下來還要看是不是真的蔡總統會在他卸任之前特赦陳水扁可是如果他是特赦適指免刑"},{"start":723.052,"end":732.325,"text":"的情況之下那4個那接下來4個案子一定要儘速啟動審判否則根本無法向民眾交代好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c036051ed2b1a310c1ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e450148225f33e433285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"12:25:36 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Can Help，連臺大醫院院長都說，Taiwan Can Help各項醫療指標是建立在血汗醫護壓榨的前提之下，所以我希望你們可以對國內的醫事從業人員、對爆肝的醫師人員提供這樣子超出服務的醫療水準，展現出We Do Care，請教您認同嗎？"],["施參事金水：對，委員，我們認同。我們做國際醫療的時候，當然是國內醫衛實力的延伸，所以我們也同樣要照顧國內醫衛的……"],["陳委員菁徽：那您對於這一週雙和醫院的事件，衛福部一條鞭，請問會如何處理？"],["施參事金水：報告委員，這個事情不在我的職責範圍內，請容我回去跟長官解釋一下，因為我是國際合作組，所以我主要是負責國際合作事務。"],["陳委員菁徽：請問衛福部一週內可以儘速提出檢討報告嗎？"],["施參事金水：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：如何在你們管轄的醫院落實性別平權還有勞動平權？可以嗎？"],["施參事金水：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。接下來我們請外交部部長和衛福部官員。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長你好。因為我具備醫師身分，所以本月也會一起出席日內瓦的WHA，這邊要感謝衛福部還有外交部，許許多多的行政流程都非常繁瑣。但本席很好奇的是，去年薛部長就有率團，透過臺灣與美國、日本、澳洲首度在WHA期間的GCTF這個Framework平臺舉辦周邊會議時，薛部長有利用美國衛生部全球事務助理部長培斯當場致詞的時候提到，臺灣已經注意到WHA於疫後提出新的「防範和抵禦新興威脅倡議」（PRET）。所以我在這邊請問衛福部和外交部，就PRET的重要性，可以講出來嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我請衛福部先回答。"],["施參事金水：委員質詢的是有關於WHO目前在指定的大流行病公約，是嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：是，大家知道現在新興的傳染病有可能一瞬間就發生，而且是跨國之間會發生，所以它是用來協助各國可以提升未來因應大流行威脅的防疫韌性。"],["施參事金水：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：當時薛部長在場外的時候，希望我們可以參加PRET，可是後續非常可惜，我親自搜尋所有的網路，在外交部、衛福部官網系統查詢，都看不到任何後續的進展。請教一下PRET的事情，雷聲大雨點小，後來就沒消沒息，原因是什麼？"],["施參事金水：有關於PRET，其實它本身是WHO內部的一個計畫，我們這邊還在持續跟WHO交涉怎麼樣讓臺灣參與。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你們很重視這件事情，所以我們未來應該要怎麼利用國際間這個倡議還有附帶資源，讓國人可以體驗到有感的施政？畢竟現在大家過著疫情後的生活，所以其實全國人民也隨時在準備，就是萬一我們再發生一波新興傳染病時應該要如何抵禦。","我這邊終於找到一篇，在什麼時候提到PRET的資訊？居然是在去年4月有舉辦過一次會議，訂定了2025年12月的工作目標，而且是我們交通部航港局的每月海事要聞所講到的工作目標，包括籌備專門的投資，本於對醫事健康政策的重視，也針對航運、重大疾病間的差距問題等等，這件事你們都知道嗎？一無所知？其實薛部長去年參加WHA，就在一個公開的演說講到臺灣非常重視也很希望參加PRET，但是後面都沒有任何的相關動作了。"],["施參事金水：我們就是透過那個……跟WHA在溝通，要參與這個倡議。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們都看得出來，因為有時候我們是從架構之外、場外的GCTF這個平臺來做推案，才會比較順利，對不對？美國、日本、澳洲等等大家一起成立的Framework，其實它很像你走去一個吃到飽的餐廳，可是你不夾菜，因為你的這個Framework，過去一年我查了一下，你們舉辦了二、三十場活動，有能源、反假資訊、性別暴力的，就是沒有任何關於公共衛生的，不覺得這樣子會很可惜嗎？不覺得臺灣應該要主動提議辦公衛相關的活動，才可以讓世界知道臺灣的公衛軟實力嗎？這4個國家，我想問一下，你們是怎麼決定每年要討論哪些topic？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下，我們針對GCTF的各個場次其實都有公開，針對公共衛生的部分我們也有好幾場，包括去年在世界衛生大會期間辦的那一場，那個GCTF……"],["陳委員菁徽：我說的是這一年來，這是我查到的。"],["吳部長釗燮：我們這裡面，譬如5月23日有一場在日內瓦舉行……請我們北美司長說明。"],["王司長良玉：委員，我是不是可以說明一下我們辦GCTF的題目之選擇？"],["陳委員菁徽：嗯。"],["王司長良玉：主要就是，我們每年都會跟夥伴一起召開一個commitee決定今年的這些題目。另外，我們現在除了在國內辦的，也有在幾個主要的國家、我們的友邦或者是發展中的國家辦理，主要是看當地政府對什麼議題有興趣，我們也會決定要辦什麼樣的題目。"],["陳委員菁徽：那我也幫衛福部講幾句話，衛福部過去一年來有主動提出要求，希望外交部可以協助在這個Framework爭取多一點防疫、公衛等等的相關議題嗎？"],["王司長良玉：如果有的話我們一定會支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為我希望全世界都準備好的時候，臺灣也可以準備好，好嗎？也希望衛福部一週內可以交出檢討報告。好，謝謝各位。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王鴻薇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.60409375,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.05846875,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.34034375,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.18221875,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.96659375000002,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.61596875,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.73409375,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.28659375,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.60596875000002,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.83284375000002,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.67096875000001,"end":178.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.49284375000002,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.60221875000002,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.42471875,"end":181.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.12909375,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.54659375,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.10346875000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.21721875,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.90034375000002,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.97596875000002,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.14784375000002,"end":228.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.29534375,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.24409375000002,"end":230.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.11721875,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.91534375,"end":258.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.18471875,"end":258.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.09596875,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.97346875,"end":262.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.97721875,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.67284375,"end":266.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.70659375,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.70221875000004,"end":268.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.39409375,"end":268.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.61346875000004,"end":269.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.66409375,"end":282.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.84034375000005,"end":275.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.07534375,"end":283.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.54784375,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.44659375000003,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.97659375,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.31909375000004,"end":345.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.42409375,"end":347.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.00596875,"end":361.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.54409375,"end":364.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.27346875,"end":373.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.93034375,"end":375.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.53346875,"end":381.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.87409375000004,"end":384.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.16034375000004,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.90221875000003,"end":404.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.37221875,"end":414.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.63284375,"end":414.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.37534375,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.10096875000005,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.77971875000003,"end":426.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.37346875000003,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.52346875,"end":455.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.36471875,"end":464.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.79784375,"end":471.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.08784375000005,"end":488.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.75221875000005,"end":490.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.95034375000006,"end":495.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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can help"},{"start":114.961,"end":138.841,"text":"連臺大醫院的院長都說臺灣可以幫助各項醫療指標是建立在血汗醫護壓榨的前提之下所以我也想我希望你們可以對國內的醫事從業人員對病患爆肝的醫事人員提供這樣子超出服務的醫療水準展現出We do care所以我想請教您認同嗎"},{"start":142.152,"end":145.193,"text":"那您對於這一週這個雙核醫院的事件衛福部一條邊請問會如何處理呢?"},{"start":161.388,"end":179.979,"text":"法委員 這個事情不在我的職責範圍內請同我回去跟長官請示一下因為我是國際合作所以我主要是負責國際合作所以請問可以請衛福部一周內可以儘速提出檢討報告嗎如何在你們管轄的醫院落實性別平權還有勞動的平權好的可以好那接下來我們請"},{"start":187.952,"end":192.554,"text":"外交部部長請部長跟衛福部的官員一同因為我具備醫師的身份部長你好所以本月也會一起出席日內瓦WHA這邊要感謝衛福部還有外交部許許多多的行政流程都非常的繁瑣但是本席很好奇的是去年我們薛部長就有率團在透過我們跟"},{"start":216.744,"end":235.08,"text":"台灣、美國、日本、澳洲首度在WHA期間的GCTF Framework平台舉辦周邊會議的時候當時薛部長有利用美國衛生部全球事務助理培斯當場致詞的時候提到"},{"start":237.142,"end":257.02,"text":"台灣已經注意到WHA於疫後提出新的PRED防範與抵禦新興威脅的倡議所以我在這邊請問一下衛福部跟外交部對於這個PRED的重要性可以講出來嗎我請衛福部先來"},{"start":260.554,"end":282.209,"text":"委員質詢的是有關於WHA目前在制定的大流行病公約是嗎是他是用來協助因為大家知道說現在新型的傳染病有可能一瞬間就發生而且是跨國之間會發生所以他是協助各國可以提升未來因應大流行威脅的防疫的韌性對"},{"start":283.621,"end":308.556,"text":"所以當時薛部長在場外的時候希望我們可以參加這個PRENT可是呢後續非常可惜我們來看我親自透過所有網路的搜尋外交部衛福部的官網系統的查詢都看不到任何的後續進展可以請教一下這個PRENT的事情雷聲大雨點小後來就沒消沒洗原因是什麼呢"},{"start":310.492,"end":319.096,"text":"有關這個PRACT其實它本身是一個WHO內部的一個計畫那我們這邊還在持續跟WHO這邊教授說怎麼樣讓台灣參與"},{"start":321.438,"end":347.89,"text":"好,你們很重視這件事情所以我們未來應該要怎麼利用國際間這個倡議還有附帶的資源讓國人可以體驗到有感嘛有感的施政畢竟現在大家過著疫情後的生活所以其實全國人民也隨時在準備說萬一我們有再一波新型的傳染病應該要如何來抵禦好,終於找到一篇什麼時候提到了PRED"},{"start":349.079,"end":364.08,"text":"竟然是在這個去年的4月有舉辦過一次會議這個訂定了2025年12月的工作目標而且是從我們交通部的航港局每月海事要聞"},{"start":365.582,"end":381.71,"text":"講到的工作目標說包括籌備專門的投資本於對醫事健康政策的重視然後我們在這個航運等等疫情重大疾病的差距等等這件事情你們都知道嗎一無所知"},{"start":391.98,"end":394.121,"text":"我們就是透過那個跟WHO在溝通要參與這個倡議"},{"start":415.441,"end":426.398,"text":"好 我們都看得出來因為有時候我們是從架構之外嘛場外的這個GCTF這個平台來做推案才會比較順利嘛 對不對"},{"start":427.818,"end":455.228,"text":"所以我們這個美國、日本、澳洲等等大家一起成立的Framework其實它很像你走去一個吃到飽的餐廳可是你不夾菜因為你的這個Framework呢過去一年我查了一下喔你們舉辦了二三十場的活動有能源的啊有反假資訊的啊有性別暴力的就是沒有任何關於公共衛生的不覺得這樣子會很可惜嗎"},{"start":456.448,"end":470.897,"text":"不覺得台灣應該要主動來提議辦公衛相關的活動才可以讓世界知道台灣的公衛軟實力嗎?這四個國家我想問一下你們是怎麼決定每年你們要討論哪些topic?"},{"start":473.417,"end":496.884,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們針對那個GCTF的各個場次其實都有公開啦那針對公共衛生的這個部分其實我們也有好幾場包括那個去年在那個世界衛生大會期間的辦的那一場那個GCTF我說的是這一年來這是我查到的譬如說5月23號就是有一場在日內瓦舉行有沒有其他的"},{"start":497.424,"end":499.325,"text":"委員可以說明一下我們辦GCTF的題目選擇嗎?"},{"start":528.564,"end":551.993,"text":"衛福部主動提出要求希望可以外交部幫忙協助在這個範圍爭取多一點的防疫啊公衛等等的相關議題嗎?如果有的話我們一定會支持因為我希望全世界都準備好的時候台灣也可以準備好希望衛福部可以一周內交出檢討報告謝謝各位 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c03e179fae34fbaa52ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e456796960d55468d695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"12:09:11 - 12:25:20","影片長度":"00:16:09","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":969,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:25:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:09:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（12時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員，裡面有32位民進黨的委員、19個國民黨的委員、2個民眾黨的委員，顯然民進黨委員大軍壓境的狀況比較多，所以其實沒有施壓的問題。今天國會任何委員，對於我們的行政業務質詢，其實是他們的義務跟職責……"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以其實不需要套上任何的帽子。今天為什麼大家會重視這個？當然部長未來已經要到國安會，你未來的面向更廣，不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：今天有幾個問題，我們還是在這裡請教，因為畢竟是在你手上，我想要請教，我們很多文件列密的目的是什麼？因為之前大家一直說我洩密嘛！可是到現在都沒有說洩什麼密耶！反而有很多在媒體直播，然後透過很多不該知道機密的人一直說出來，卻沒有人對他有任何的追究，這個現象很奇怪。所以我想要請教部長的是，我們列密的目的是什麼？是內容還是那一張紙？"],["吳部長釗燮：最主要是那個內容，以及文件本身啦！我們……"],["馬委員文君：我們很認同，對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的部分，大家去遵守，可是我們現在要問的是我們到底在乎的是內容，還是那一張文件？因為已經本末倒置了。從過去到現在，不管是國防的武器裝備，不管是現在外交的政策，或者對外很多的種種作為等等，我們在乎的、應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾，而不是在國內引起紛爭，這也是為什麼這一次大家會拿出來討論，而且非常重視的一個部分。我們就內容來看，因為有些在捷克方面，其實它已經有提出來了，也公開了，就這個部分，我想要請教的是在俄烏戰爭以來，我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金，而這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題，我們希望在這裡可以好好地釐清，好不好？畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢，首先，這個1,000萬現金，我們提供了1,000萬美元的捐助，其中匡了30%的金額要向臺灣採購，我們現在比較不能理解的是，為什麼30%的醫療用品要向臺灣採購？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是立法院在2014年的決議……"],["馬委員文君：這個不是2014年，其實之前，我們在援助其他的……因為俄烏戰爭，這不是第一筆啊，你已經累計到1億美金了，老實說外交部會這麼認真地去追溯到2014年，我也很懷疑啦！我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做？既然是捐助款，對烏克蘭的難民或者需求者來說其實是非常重要的，可是我們卻列了這一點，這是第一點大家覺得不可思議的。那一天歐洲司的司長有提到，是因為現在那裡很危險，所以我們沒有辦法進去，然後也沒有辦法理解到他們缺的是什麼……"],["吳部長釗燮：只能透過第三者。"],["馬委員文君：可是部長，你記得嗎？2022年俄烏戰爭剛開始的時候，而且還不是只有在烏東喔，那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍，可是2022年4月份的時候，你還跟基輔市長親自視訊……"],["吳部長釗燮：那是local government如果說涉及到中央政府的話，這個很困難。"],["馬委員文君：你可以跟基輔市長對話，其實他們會掌控到很多的資訊，而且你都可以在5月31號的時候跟另外一個哈爾科夫的市長，視訊了，哈爾科夫就在烏東了，這時烏東已經是在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市，可是你也跟他做了視訊。可見如果我們願意，我們可以很清楚地聯繫到，如果不行那也沒關係，你必須清楚地瞭解到他們需要的是什麼，可是你用這樣的理由，我們不能接受。如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下，你都還可以跟他們視訊，為什麼到現在，甚至在烏東的一個需求，我們還要透過第三者？當然也可以，不是不行，可是為什麼要匡了30%的醫療用品？因為我記得那時候我們在援烏的時候，我們也有物資送過去，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["馬委員文君：那時候物資，大家最質疑的，包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的，就是我們的運費，而今天歐洲很多的醫療用品會比我們臺灣差嗎？今天是他們的需求，不該是用最好、最高級的，而是要最迅速、最需要的，所以怎麼樣的方向對他們會是最好的？你錢都捐給人家了，為什麼一定要要求它30%要跟臺灣買？這是大家不能理解的目的之一。第二個，我們3月份的時候，其實臺南也有民間的企業，它也有送醫療器材到烏克蘭，民間都可以跟他們聯繫上，都知道他們可能需要什麼，我們怎麼會不知道？堂堂一個外交部！這是第二個。第三個，我們到底要不要用政府採購法，我覺得都可以討論，可是問題就是我們剛才講的，明明你已經把現金送過去，你還要叫它買我們這裡的，然後再花一筆運費運到那裡去，這不是多此一舉嗎？而且浪費掉的那些錢，這部分到底後來又會被誰多賺了一筆？所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的。","另外，他們在3月份都已經調查過這樣的需求，現在可不可以告訴我們，他們現在最欠缺的是什麼？他們想要買什麼、要買多少錢或者多少數量，有沒有給我們一個清單？"],["吳部長釗燮：他們會給我們期中報告，我跟委員說明一下，就是說……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我覺得期中報告跟他們的需求要分開，因為從3月到現在已經兩個月，如果這是他們急著必須要用的醫療用品，包括藥品，這個是不能等的，照理說他們的需求……因為也不是非常多的錢，這怎麼會等到他們的期中報告？他們要跟臺灣買，我現在說的是要跟臺灣買的部分，其他我不管。"],["吳部長釗燮：他們也有對外公開一個影帶，裡面這些東西是跟……或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan，其實我們跟他們講，這個東西是要向臺灣採購，只要是……"],["馬委員文君：所以早就送過去了，是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：只要是made in Taiwan……"],["馬委員文君：早就送過去了？"],["吳部長釗燮：不管是什麼樣的醫材……"],["馬委員文君：在當場買是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是，他們只要在市面上能夠找到什麼樣made in Taiwan的東西，而不是buy from Taiwan就符合我們的需求了。"],["馬委員文君：這樣就很奇怪囉！部長，made in Taiwan跟buy from Taiwan，你在玩文字遊戲……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有，我沒有在玩文字遊戲。"],["馬委員文君：部長，聽我講完我的問題，今天如果你只是要人家買臺灣製造的東西，在捷克可能可以買到、在哪裡可以買到，或者只要是臺灣生產的通通可以，你的意思是這樣嗎？那怎麼會在這裡面規範？通常會是好意的，私底下口頭拜託他們儘量買我們的……"],["吳部長釗燮：這是希望他們能夠協助我們的產業發展……"],["馬委員文君：我們是在援助其他國家，在必須的人道救援時，我們還要考量到這樣的因素，這是讓人家覺得很奇怪的啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有啦！因為我們的人沒有辦法實際進去，而捷克的這些人能夠進去實際的看……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你如果講這部分，那我們就要來探討了，我希望你最近能夠提供我們相關的清單，因為你說made in Taiwan跟buy from Taiwan是不一樣的，你現在是針對我們的問題在做一個解釋而已啦！跟你剛剛和他們在那邊說密件怎麼樣的……"],["吳部長釗燮：有30%從臺灣買……"],["馬委員文君：如果是人道救援、如果在捷克可以買到，你還要求一定要是臺灣的，那叫什麼人道救援？這樣子的話，我覺得你剛剛那個理由就更不可原諒了，因為好的藥品歐洲也很多啊！我們很多的學名藥，我們有很多的……"],["吳部長釗燮：最主要是器材，我們臺灣是醫療器材的大國。"],["馬委員文君：歐洲沒有嗎？什麼樣的器材？"],["吳部長釗燮：歐洲可能也有，像最近……"],["馬委員文君：所以部長你已經講到重點了，你說你不知道他們需要什麼，他們到現在還沒有提供給我們，可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材，而且臺灣很強，那希望你把他們需要什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：好，我們書面提供給委員。"],["馬委員文君：第二個，針對外交部報告裡面提到的，我們今天討論的重點──能不能加入WHA，其實國外的政府、民意機關還有團體，他們有很多透過媒體也好、短片也好、投書也好，或很多有效的行動也好，都在支持我們，希望我們可以進入WHA。可是我想請教一個問題，臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員的身分參加WHA的原因，跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因，你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道，為什麼我們過去在2009年到2016年可以以觀察員的身分參加，2007年以後到目前為止，今年顯然我們也接不到邀請函，到底是為什麼？最主要的原因是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：2009年眾所周知，是因為我們接受了中國的政治條件……"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的條件？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是跟中國之間有一些妥協。"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的妥協？"],["吳部長釗燮：就我們所知……"],["馬委員文君：我們失去什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：就我們所知，我們接受了中國的一些條件……"],["馬委員文君：比如什麼條件？"],["吳部長釗燮：在那個之前，我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU，我們發現如果要照這種模式參與是要透過中國，也就是世界衛生組織要提供任何協助是需要透過中國，如果我們臺灣要向世界衛生組織……"],["馬委員文君：2016年也是嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：我們臺灣……"],["馬委員文君：2016年也是嘛！2016年你們接受了嗎？2016年我們也以……"],["吳部長釗燮：2016年的時候，那時我擔任國安會秘書長的第一天就在處理這件事情。"],["馬委員文君：結果呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們那時候……"],["馬委員文君：如果是這樣，你們已經是執政了……"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：如果是因為這樣，照理說那時候要拒絕參加的，可是我們還是參加了，從2009年到2016年，我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼？我們跟人家妥協什麼？我們才可以參加。我們現在沒有辦法參加，包括你說美國都非常力挺，布林肯都大聲疾呼，可見美國使了非常大的力氣，可是我們還是沒有辦法參加，到底最重要的原因是什麼，只是因為我們不願意？可是2016年民進黨已經執政了，我們還是參加了啊！所以就這個部分，我覺得這樣子的說詞可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服，我們還是希望以整體的國家利益來考量，因為衛生、健康這些主要的訴求，我們臺灣有這麼優秀、這麼好的量能，我們要參加，我們在可以接受的範圍就應該參加，可是我們顯然沒有。就這個部分，我最後一個問題請教好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：我很簡單的回應委員，2016年的時候我們有去參加，但是我們也對外非常清楚的發言，我們沒有接受中國的這些政治條件，也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第25.1案的說法。至於在2009年到2016年之間的參與，是接受了九二條件之後的參與，關於這件事情，因為每一個政府在針對臺灣主權的立場上有不同的看法……"],["馬委員文君：部長，時間的關係，你這樣的說明當然是可以……"],["吳部長釗燮：2016年那時候的政府沒有接受九二共識……"],["馬委員文君：你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些，可是第2758號決議案早就有了，我現在要說的是2009年到2016年這中間當民進黨執政以後，裡面有不可接受的條件，可是我們還是參加了，你還是接受了，這中間最大的差異，從2017年到2024年，到目前我們都沒有辦法參加，我們會損失什麼？這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚。未來部長您會到國安會，我們還是希望大家對於整體國家的實質利益，或者務實的態度……"],["吳部長釗燮：我們會非常重視。"],["馬委員文君：我們來面對，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，會非常的重視。"],["馬委員文君：我最後一個問題請教，這一次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前正在增加當中，因為還有好幾天的時間，我們預期所有的邦交國應該都……"],["馬委員文君：還在增加嘛！還沒有增加之前，到目前有幾個？"],["吳部長釗燮：這部分容許我先不對外說明。"],["馬委員文君：有困難嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：有好幾個，沒有困難，已經有好幾個了。"],["馬委員文君：那什麼時候可以告訴我們？"],["吳部長釗燮：可能……"],["馬委員文君：520之後？還是等一下可以來報告？因為有和沒有是很清楚的啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：下禮拜五我們就可以公開了。"],["馬委員文君：520之後喔，是擔心什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有，就是我們要……"],["馬委員文君：因為我現在問的不是在你正式開會的當下，而是現在到目前為止，有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案？"],["吳部長釗燮：剛剛同仁跟我講，報名的時間是5月21號截止，所以在截止的時候我們才知道……"],["馬委員文君：對，我是說現在啦！因為我們至少還有12個邦交國，這12個邦交國有誰為我們提案，邀請我們參加？"],["吳部長釗燮：已經有好多個了。"],["馬委員文君：好多個，有幾個？不然說幾個就好，我不要問你哪幾個啦，有幾個？"],["吳部長釗燮：有6個。"],["馬委員文君：6個，好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.78034375,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.80471875,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.96096875,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.257843750000006,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.69221875,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.98721875000001,"end":65.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.77096875000001,"end":77.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.85846875,"end":78.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.26346875,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.54284375,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.18346875,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.70096875,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.66284375000001,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.71596875,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.99284375000002,"end":191.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.07159375,"end":202.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.80534375000002,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.23534375000003,"end":248.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.65471875000003,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.49409375000002,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.09596875,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.25471875,"end":273.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.27159375,"end":270.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.19534375,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.78971875,"end":333.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.34596875,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.75096875,"end":341.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.64409375,"end":367.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.39971875000003,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.37409375000004,"end":376.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.57534375,"end":386.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.78909375,"end":387.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.47659375,"end":409.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.20721875000004,"end":432.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.89159375,"end":440.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.67971875,"end":462.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.06721875000005,"end":443.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.44659375000003,"end":445.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.72034375000004,"end":449.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.25159375000004,"end":452.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.60971875,"end":454.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.23784375,"end":459.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.54534375000003,"end":476.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.38284375,"end":476.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.64846875,"end":481.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.57221875000005,"end":479.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.73659375000005,"end":479.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.90534375000004,"end":481.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.99784375,"end":482.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.09909375,"end":482.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.23409375000006,"end":494.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.26784375000005,"end":482.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.87409375000004,"end":492.32534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.13534375,"end":501.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.47221875,"end":500.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.38721875000005,"end":524.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3390937500001,"end":512.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.55409375,"end":514.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.88221875,"end":522.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.8940937500001,"end":533.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.30721875,"end":527.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.36971875,"end":540.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8247187500001,"end":545.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.8572187500001,"end":545.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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麻煩請部長報言好部長好 今天登記質詢的總共有53位委員來賓有32位民進黨的委員 19個國民黨的委員 2個民眾黨的委員"},{"start":25.049,"end":40.682,"text":"民進黨的委員顯然大軍壓境的狀況比較多所以其實沒有施壓的問題今天在國會任何委員只要對於我們的行政業務或者我們在質詢的這個其實是他們的義務跟職責"},{"start":43.104,"end":70.087,"text":"所以我想其實不需要套上任何的帽子今天為什麼大家會重視這個當然部長未來你已經邀到國安會你未來的面向更廣不過我們也希望大家可以用對國家利益最好的態度來面對那今天有幾個問題我們還是在這裡請教因為畢竟是在您手上我想要請教我們很多的文件列密的目的是什麼"},{"start":70.848,"end":77.41,"text":"因為我自己在之前也大家一直說我洩密可是到現在都沒有說我洩什麼密反而有很多在媒體直播然後透過很多的不該知道機密的人一直說出來沒有人對他有任何的追究這個現象很奇怪所以我想要請教部長的是我們列密的目的是什麼是內容還是那一張紙"},{"start":99.791,"end":123.492,"text":"最主要是那個內容以及文件本身我們很認同我們在對於任何的規範或者我們在法律律定的大家去遵守可是我們現在要說的是我們到底在乎的是內容還是那張文件因為已經本末倒置了"},{"start":124.173,"end":142.68,"text":"我們從過去到現在不管是國防的武器裝備不管是現在的外交的政策或者對外的很多的種種作為等等我們在乎的我們應該要保守秘密的是我們不要受到干擾而不是在國內引起紛爭這也是這一次為什麼大家會拿出來討論而且"},{"start":144.141,"end":144.682,"text":"在俄烏戰爭以來,我們援助烏克蘭累計已經達到1億美金"},{"start":162.782,"end":188.623,"text":"那這一次外交部委託捷克以第三方援助烏克蘭有幾個問題希望在這裡可以好好的釐清好不好因為他畢竟花的是國家的預算還有人民的納稅錢首先這個一千萬現金我們提供了一千萬美元的一個捐助那其中匡了百分之三十的金額要向台灣採購我們現在比較"},{"start":193.131,"end":194.073,"text":"為什麼這30%的醫療用品要向台灣採購?"},{"start":199.527,"end":203.892,"text":"這個是那個立法院在2014年的這個不是2014年因為其實之前我們在援助其他的因為俄武戰爭這個不是第一筆啊你已經累積到1億美金了我們老實說外交部會這麼認真的去追溯到2014年我也很懷疑啊我們現在要講的是為什麼要這麼做因為我們既然是這個是捐助款"},{"start":223.911,"end":224.591,"text":"什麼透過第三者?"},{"start":249.56,"end":264.673,"text":"可是部長你記得嗎2011年那時候二五戰爭剛開始的時候而且那時候還不是只有在在烏東喔那時候連基輔都是被打的一個範圍可是2011年4月份的時候你還跟基輔市長親自視訊第二次如果說要涉及到中央政府的話這個很困難"},{"start":274.824,"end":274.864,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":292.766,"end":297.892,"text":"這個已經是烏東在戰爭陰影之下的一個城市可是你也跟他做了視訊所以可見如果我們願意我們可以很清楚的聯繫到或者如果不行那也沒關係可是你必須清楚的了解到他們需要的是什麼可是你用這樣的理由我們不能接受"},{"start":310.948,"end":332.315,"text":"如果在當時這麼緊張的狀況之下你都還可以跟他們視訊為什麼到現在甚至你在烏東的一個需求我們還要透過第三者當然也可以不是不行可是為什麼要匡了百分之三十的醫療用品因為我記得那時候我們在圓屋的時候我們也有物資送過去對不對"},{"start":333.835,"end":340.963,"text":"那時候物資大家最質疑的或者包括外交部都覺得很傷腦筋的就是我們的運費那你今天歐洲的很多的醫療用品會比我們台灣差嗎你今天是他們的需求"},{"start":348.752,"end":375.987,"text":"你今天不是用最好最高級的而是要最迅速最需要的所以怎麼樣的方向會是對他們最好你錢都捐給人家了你為什麼一定要要求他一定30%要跟台灣買這是大家不能理解的目的之一第二個我們3月份的時候其實台南也有民間的企業其實他有送醫療器材到烏克蘭"},{"start":377.611,"end":385.977,"text":"那民間都可以跟他們聯繫上都知道他們可能需求什麼那我們怎麼會不知道堂堂一個外交部這是第二個第三個"},{"start":388.516,"end":390.977,"text":"我們到底要不要用政府採購法我覺得那個都可以討論可是問題就是我們剛才講的你明明最近的而且你已經把現金送過去你還要在他買買我們這裡的然後再花一筆運費再運到那裡去這不是多此一舉嗎而且你浪費掉那些錢"},{"start":411.46,"end":417.405,"text":"這個部分到底後來會被誰又多賺了一筆所以這個是我們覺得應該要很清楚的另外他在3月份他都已經調查這樣的需求現在可不可以告訴我們他們決定現在他們最欠缺的是什麼他們想要買什麼要買多少錢或者多少數量有沒有給我們一個清單"},{"start":433.372,"end":440.374,"text":"他們會給我們期中報告這邊我跟委員說明一下部長我覺得期中報告跟他的需求要把它分開因為他從3月到現在已經兩個月如果這是他們急著必須的醫療用品包括藥品這個是不能等的照理說他們的需求因為也不是非常多的錢這怎麼會等到他的期中報告他要跟台灣買我現在說的是要跟台灣買的部分"},{"start":461.978,"end":480.487,"text":"他們也有對外來公開一個影帶說裡面這些東西是跟或者是說這些東西是made in Taiwan那其實我們跟他們講說這個東西是要向台灣採購那這只要是只要是made in Taiwan不管是什麼樣的這個藝材"},{"start":482.188,"end":493.335,"text":"是嗎?不是,就是說他們只要在那個市面上能夠找到什麼樣Made in Taiwan的這些東西而不是Buy from Taiwan那這個就符合我們的需求部長,Made in Taiwan跟Buy from Taiwan你這個在玩文字遊戲的部長,聽我講完我的問題"},{"start":501.46,"end":514.467,"text":"因為今天如果你只是要人家買說是台灣製造的東西在捷克可能可以買到在哪裡可以買到或者只要有台灣的生產的通通可以你的意思是這樣嗎那怎麼會在這裡面規範那通常會是好意的私底下口頭拜託他們說那盡量買我們的我們是在援助其他國家"},{"start":524.972,"end":525.192,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":546.738,"end":558.387,"text":"Made in Taiwan 跟 By Front Taiwan 這是不一樣的那你現在是針對我們的問題在做這樣的一個解釋而已啦如果是這樣 如果是人道救援 如果在捷克可以買到你還要求說一定是台灣的 那叫什麼人道救援"},{"start":568.618,"end":579.638,"text":"如果是這樣的話你剛剛那個理由我覺得就更不可原諒了因為你好的藥品歐洲也很多啊我們很多的那個學名藥我們有很多的"},{"start":580.666,"end":586.868,"text":"主要是器材我們台灣是醫療器材的大國歐洲沒有嗎?什麼樣的器材?所以部長你已經講到重點了麻煩你把他們的需求因為你說你不知道他們需要什麼到現在還沒有提供給我們可是你剛剛說他們需要的是器材而且台灣很強那希望你把這個器材他需要的什麼樣的器材提供給我們委員會好不好第二個"},{"start":605.094,"end":618.899,"text":"就是說我們現在今天也討論到針對外交部去報告裡面提到的就是我們今天的重點我們對能不能加入WHA"},{"start":620.319,"end":634.529,"text":"其實這個部分外交部在報告裡面有提到我們對國外的政府對民意機關還有團體其實他們有很多很多透過媒體也好短片也好投書也好或很多有效的行動也好"},{"start":635.578,"end":661.169,"text":"都在支持希望我們可以進入WHA可是我想請教一下臺灣在2009年到2016年都有收到WHO幹事長邀請臺灣以觀察員身份參加WHA的原因跟現在沒有辦法參加的原因你可不可以用比較簡單的方式讓我們知道為什麼在過去可以"},{"start":661.989,"end":682.809,"text":"在2009年到2006年我們是以觀察員身份參加的那就2007年以後一直到目前為止今年顯然可能我們也接不到邀請函了那到底是為什麼最主要的原因是什麼2009年那個眾所周知是因為我們接受了中國的這個政治的條件什麼樣的條件"},{"start":685.974,"end":709.057,"text":"就是跟中國之間有一些妥協什麼樣的妥協?我們失去什麼?我們所知就是說接受了中國的一些條件比如什麼條件?在那個之前我們看到了世界衛生組織跟中國的一個機密的MOU發現說我們如果說要照這種模式去參與的話是要透過中國"},{"start":709.878,"end":710.179,"text":"2016年也是嗎2016年你們接受了嗎"},{"start":722.543,"end":726.584,"text":"2016年的時候我那時候在擔任國安會的秘書長的第一天我們就在處理這件事情結果呢如果是這樣你們已經是掌控已經是執政了如果是因為這樣照理說那時候要拒絕參加的可是"},{"start":742.17,"end":746.994,"text":"我們還是參加了從2009年到2014年我們2016年我現在要知道的是我們到底失去什麼我們在人家妥協什麼我們才可以參加那我們現在沒有辦法參加然後說包括美國美國你說非常力挺包括布林肯都大聲的疾呼這可見是美國使了非常大的力氣可是我們還是沒有辦法參加那他到底最重要的原因是什麼只是因為我們不願意可是2016年"},{"start":770.492,"end":775.473,"text":"民進黨已經執政了我們還是參加啦所以就這個部分我覺得這樣子的說辭可能也沒辦法讓大家可以很信服我們還是希望以整體的國家利益如果因為衛生健康這些主要的一個訴求我們台灣有這麼優秀的正好的一個能量量能我們要參加我們應該在可以接受的範圍我們就應該參加可是我們顯然沒有"},{"start":798.9,"end":817.708,"text":"就這個部分我只最後一個問題請教好不好很簡單的回應委員就是2016年的時候我們去參加但是我們也對外發言非常的清楚就是沒有接受中國的這些政治條件也沒有接受中國對2758號決議案以及WHO第二五點議案的這種說法"},{"start":823.29,"end":843.818,"text":"至於說在2009到2016年之間的這個參與接受了九二條件之後的這個參與至於有關於這件事情是因為每一個政府在針對台灣主權的這個部長上面有不同的這個看法2016年那時候的政府是沒有接受九二共識你這樣的說明當然是可以你從剛剛到現在大概都有提到這些可是2758早就有了"},{"start":852.682,"end":857.847,"text":"我現在要說的是2009到2016年這中間如果當民進黨執政以後那裡面有不可接受的條件那可是我們還是參加的你還是接受的那這中間最大的差異到後面2017年到2024年目前我們都沒有辦法參加我們會損失什麼這個部分這個部分必須要把它拿捏清楚未來部長臨會到國安會我們還是希望"},{"start":878.346,"end":879.628,"text":"這次幫我們在WHO提案的邦交國有幾個?"},{"start":895.423,"end":918.012,"text":"目前正在增加當中因為我們還有好幾天的時間我們預期是所有的邦交國應該都沒有還在增加嗎還沒有增加之前到目前有幾個這個部分容許我就先不對外說明這樣子有困難嗎有好幾個沒有困難是已經有好幾個那什麼時候可以告訴我們可能520之後還是等一下可以先來報告因為有沒有很清楚"},{"start":925.376,"end":928.1,"text":"下禮拜五我們就可以公開了五二零之後啊 擔心什麼沒有就是我們要沒有因為我現在問的不是說在你開會正式開會當下而是現在到目前為止有多少邦交國或非邦交國幫我們提案"},{"start":943.586,"end":943.747,"text":"多謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152535","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0e61c6522e3c78462881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e452c79cbdc355cad145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:10:39 - 12:16:14","影片長度":"00:05:35","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":335,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:16:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:10:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時10分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。部長，南投縣是農業縣，南投縣民、許多農民時時刻刻都在關注著農業部，希望部長未來能夠為我們農業縣、南投縣還有農業發展提供很多的協助，所以我們也期待甚深。在這裡本席也要先幫我們在地的農民來反映一個問題，因為之前我們集集的鎮民代表陳榮森代表有提到蜂農的部分、天災救助的部分，因為在南投農業縣，產蜂蜜的地方其實滿多的，但是因為天然的氣候變遷，這一次包括荔枝、龍眼，讓我們蜂農蜂蜜的產出、產量，比以往銳減許多。其實目前來講，南投縣及我們辦公室也曾經多次跟農業部這邊提出，希望能夠儘快納入在農業天然災害救助辦法內，本席今天也希望能夠藉這個機會，在520前能夠請部長是不是可以正面來回應一下，關於蜂農補助的部分，是不是有機會可以在5月以前，來協助我們的蜂農納入天然災害的救助，請部長能夠正面回應。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，過往我們的蜂災，就是天然災害只補助因為颱風、豪雨造成這些蜂箱損害以後我們去補助，但是這一次比較特別，就是因為荔枝、龍眼本身的開花率不足，造成它的蜂蜜的量、蜜源比較少。這個部分，其實在臺南的時候，包括在場的陳亭妃委員，那時候也一直在關切，希望有一個辦法。過往我們是用產業救助的部分，我個人認為產業救助只是一時的，所以我們經過內部討論，也確定把因為蜜源不足而產生蜜蜂沒辦法產生足夠蜂蜜的時候，給予天然災害救助，這是第一點。第二點，這樣子的一個辦法，我們已經修訂了，應該今天完成預告，預告完，這個禮拜五我們就會發布，發布的部分，有一個比較重要的，也要跟委員報告，因為它是一個連續性的，我們的發布不是從發布日開始，我們會追溯到這一次的……"],["游委員顥：今年度嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：今年度本身因為蜂蜜的部分，所以這個部分，我想包括我們救助及這些補助的金額，都有跟我們相關的蜂蜜協會做過討論，是一個大家可以接受的額度。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝部長，因為在這個議題上，農業縣，包括我跟嘉郡委員，我們都非常關注蜂農補助、補償的問題，在今年能夠納入，也謝謝部長正面的來回應，有關於我們的蜂農。","另外，本席也要針對這一次農業部動植物防疫檢疫署友善環境植物保護資材推廣計畫，它補助的部分，一般來講的話，像以前其實它補助的金額，在111年的時候，金額其實是高達1,086萬；但是在這一次來講的話，它是下降到545萬，在於強化健康跟農藥部分的購買，許多農會都有提到嚴重不足的問題。所以本席在此是否能夠請部長針對這一個保護資材的推廣計畫，來提升它的經費。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想用生物資材本身的這些費用，我們是鼓勵的啦，在去年度的話，原預算大概七千多萬，後來因為預算的一些不足，我們在年終的時候有一個追加預算，再去挹注一些經費。今年度編列的經費，大概跟去年額度、原來的額度差不了多少，的確明顯的不夠啦，所以我後續會再看看它實際的狀況，然後看看有沒有其他的經費是可以把它移到這邊來去做挹注的，這牽涉到經費的問題。"],["游委員顥：其實目前來講的話，跟之前以往來比，就會發現去年是嚴重不足，所以才補過來嘛，所以本席也希望能夠比照去年一樣，今年其實也已經預期會不足了，是不是盡力的來協助補這個不足的部分？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我想我們會盡力，因為我們很多預算都是核定了以後再去處理的，我們會努力的，而不是每年在那邊找經費來挪來挪去。我想我們會把這件事情的重要性讓行政院知道，我們的經費以後報院的時候可以有所增加。"],["游委員顥：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來，我們請陳超明委員，陳超明，陳超明委員。","接下來，我們請黃國昌委員，黃國昌，黃國昌委員。","接下來，我們請羅明才委員，羅明才，羅明才委員。","我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。登記發言的委員，除了不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，我們詢答結束。另外，陳超明委員、鍾佳濱委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們都非常的關注這個風農的這個補助補償的問題那在今年能夠納入也謝謝部長正面的來回應還有關於我們的風農那另外本期也針對"},{"start":217.051,"end":233.451,"text":"這次來講就是農業部動植物防疫檢驗所友善環境植物保護資材推廣計畫他的這個補助的部分那一般來講的話像以前其實他的補助的金額在111年的時候他其實是"},{"start":234.472,"end":240.617,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":260.011,"end":260.151,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":281.298,"end":295.596,"text":"跟去年額度、原來的額度差不了多少。那的確明顯的不夠啦。所以我後續會再看看他實際的狀況,然後看看有沒有其他的經費是可以把他移到這邊來去做預注的。這請問到經費的問題。"},{"start":297.478,"end":320.757,"text":"其實目前來講的話跟之前以往來講就發現去年是嚴重不足所以才補過來嘛那所以本席也希望說能夠比照去年一樣今年其實已經預期不足了那是不是盡力的來協助來補這個不足的部分對我想我們會盡力因為我們的很多預算齁都是合訂了以後再去處理的齁那我們會盡努力的而不是每年在那邊"},{"start":321.698,"end":330.698,"text":"在那邊找經費來挪來挪去。我想我們會讓這件事情的重要性讓行政院知道我們以後抱怨的經費的時候可以有所增加。"}]}},{"id":"152534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c034e754548b1e093a96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e4576ce14608656604d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:03:46 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12:15:04","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":678,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:15:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:03:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時3分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。有請司法院吳秘書長及法務部黃次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩秘書長、黃次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是刑廳的李廳長也幫忙陪同，協助秘書長？"],["主席：好，麻煩廳長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，秘書長、次長，我的標題是「總統特赦權不影響司法判決」、「對不法所得之處分非刑罰，維持沒收」。我先看一下第1頁，這是1996年時任總統府秘書長吳伯雄說的，「國家元首行使赦免權，則是以行政權匡濟司法權之窮，為法治國家權力分立原則的例外情形……藉以緩和對立，促進團結。」請問秘書長，你認不認同這樣對於總統特赦權的描述？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總統特赦權會影響到司法判決嗎？可以事後影響司法判決嗎？可不可以？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些我們都尊重總統的職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我沒有說總統的職權，我說這一段談話是1996年，總統府前秘書長吳伯雄所說的，你認同他這樣的描述嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當時吳前秘書長……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我尊重他的說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問次長，你認為這樣的描述是否允當？"],["黃次長謀信：基本上，前半段是客觀的描述，它的確是一個權力分立原則的例外；但是後半段，它是不是有緩和對立，促進團結……"],["鍾委員佳濱：尊重他的看法？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到價值觀的判斷，我就尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以你認為其實總統的特赦權不能在事後影響先前的司法判決，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長謀信：它是一個特別的程序，當然會影響……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是不是司法救濟程序？"],["黃次長謀信：它是一個特別……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是再審？"],["黃次長謀信：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非常上訴？"],["黃次長謀信：當然不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都不是嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：當然不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實你要明快地講，因為我的內容就是根據你們的報告講，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：特赦權不會在事後影響司法判決，有沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：不會，它不溯……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有改變之前的司法判決？"],["黃次長謀信：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以也不可能提冤獄救濟，不會嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：既成狀態不受影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我要說的是，今天大家吵了那麼久，其實總統的特赦權不會影響既有的司法判決。過去三十年有哪些人被特赦？大家已經談很多了。根據赦免法第三條有兩個情況，一個是免除其刑，一個是罪刑之宣告為無效。我想請教一下這幾個案子，韓豫平將軍被特赦的理由，犯罪事實有沒有被推翻？請問次長，在特赦他的過程當中，有把他的犯罪事實推翻嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有，他的事實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他不法且有責的部分有沒有推翻？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是總統府說，「為落實罪刑相當之憲法原則，顧念國軍將士服務軍旅之貢獻，以符應國民正當法律感情。」今天我們談國民的法律情感。秘書長，你認同這一段文字描述嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：總統府這樣描述我們尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，來，另外一個案子就不太一樣，蘇炳坤案的唯一證據是被刑求後的自白，請問這一個案件當中的犯罪事實有沒有被再次拿出來確認？請問次長，你覺得呢？本案他認為是個冤獄案。"],["黃次長謀信：它也是確定判決之後，罪刑宣告無效。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，跟前面的韓將軍一樣，罪刑宣告無效。"],["黃次長謀信：對，宣告無效。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是沒有變更之前的判決。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總統府說這是人權保障，再審法官承認本案是冤案，秘書長認同嗎？再審法官自己這樣講。"],["吳秘書長三龍：總統府的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，這是我列出來的，我從新聞當中發現再審法官承認本案是冤案，為什麼再審法官會這樣講？我們推敲一下，因為該案的唯一證據是被刑求後的自白，已經沒有司法救濟的途徑，所以透過總統府以人權保障為由，給予他免除罪刑之宣告，是不是這樣子？好，法務部次長，你有沒有聽過，你們曾經承辦總統府跟人權委員會做的，叫做228或政治受難或者國家不法回復名譽證書頒贈，有沒有這個印象？"],["黃次長謀信：有，平復行政不法跟司法不法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼叫做行政不法跟司法不法？"],["黃次長謀信：有關司法不法，當時因為涉及相關的司法案件……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當時的司法可能有問題。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是回復名譽？"],["黃次長謀信：有很多回復他名譽的方式，譬如剔除前科資料的相關措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，總統是根據哪一個授權，可以頒回復名譽證書？"],["黃次長謀信：促轉條例上面有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是促轉條例。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：促轉條例就罪刑已經確定的案件，不只免除其罪刑的宣告，還要平復、回復他的名譽，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，過去這幾個特赦案有沒有做類似回復名譽的宣告？沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：赦免法只有大赦、特赦及減刑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以赦免法也不涉及對於已經司法判決的罪刑……當事人的名譽有沒有給他回復？並沒有觸及，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：赦免法沒有這樣規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這是今天的重點，法務部的書面報告說，大赦、特赦均屬政治之措施，均非否定原確定判決所確認之犯罪行為，此與經再審、非常上訴改判無罪性質上有所不同。請問秘書長，你認同法務部書面報告的這些內容嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這我們都尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你都是尊重，好，既然你尊重的話，我也是尊重。目前扁案繫屬中和判決確定的有幾個案子，我們看到了，大概如圖所說的。請問一下秘書長，可以對停審中的案件進行特赦嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們尊重總統如何處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，你認為呢？今天秘書長從頭到尾都尊重，我也尊重他。"],["黃次長謀信：針對特赦案件，本部的立場認為只限於確定案件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["黃次長謀信：未確定案件不是射程範圍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問一下秘書長，今天黃國昌總召問目前停審中的案件，你說要回去調查一下，馬前總統的三中案目前是不是停審中？停審是不是一種裁定？目前裁定停審的案件應該不會只有扁案一案吧？你告訴我，是不是不只一案？裁定停審中的案件不只一案吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該有這個規定，其他被告也有可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我可以推論有很多案，是不是這樣子？庭長點頭，你說一下，是不是不只一案，有很多案？裁定停審的案子很多嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：裁定停審的應該不是只有這四個案子，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問馬前總統的三中案是裁定停審，還是實質停審？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分我們還要再去查一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，它是實質停審，還沒有裁定停審。大家都誤以為目前只有扁案有幾個案子停審，這個特赦會對停審的案子產生效力，沒有，對不對？確定釐清。","我們往下看今天爭議的焦點──特赦後的犯罪所得應予沒收，赦免法第三條只有免罪刑，罪刑宣告無效有沒有影響到沒收的程序？請問法務部。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：它不是一個刑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是一個刑，只是對不法所得財產秩序的回復，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：對，類似準不當得利的措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，你同意嗎？沒收不是一個刑，也無法透過特赦免除，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，它非屬刑罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以有不法所得仍須執行沒收的程序，次長，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很明確嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：確定判決的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看結論，沒收並非刑罰，免刑後仍應執行沒收，是不是這樣子？刑罰是對人的處分，沒收是剝奪財產，它並不是一種刑罰，你們的意見是這樣嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是一種刑罰，而是一種回復財產秩序的方法。犯罪人因為不法所得造成財產秩序的影響，要讓它回復到應有的狀態。"],["黃次長謀信：對，它是財產上產生的狀態。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是一個處罰，而是一個處分。"],["黃次長謀信：對，類似準不當得利的措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，拉法葉案有沒有成功追回不法所得？"],["黃次長謀信：有，追回非常多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！花了多久的時間？"],["黃次長謀信：非常多年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非常多年。"],["黃次長謀信：一、二十年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：拉法葉案我們看到的情況是要執行沒收，並沒有完成，它有沒有時效的限制？"],["黃次長謀信：沒收按照刑法有一些有時效的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目前你們有機會跟社會說，扁案涉及還在沒收執行當中的問題，還無法沒收的時效如何？"],["黃次長謀信：現在扁案這個個案，確定沒收的部分都已經執行……"],["鍾委員佳濱：該沒收的都沒收了。"],["黃次長謀信：都執行完畢了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假設有赦免的話，這些該沒收的不受赦免影響。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後我們來看一下南韓總統的特赦案，這是其他國家的例子。南韓的法務部表示，政府會以人道考量，並期待以此促成南韓朝野「理性和解政治」為出發點，同意特赦原本應該一路關到2039年的朴槿惠。","最後我的結論是，今天有這個機會，我要再跟大家說一下，今天赦免權是司法救濟外的政治途徑，次長，你同意嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：它是一個特別的途徑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，你也認同嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來尊重總統職權，讓爭議回歸歷史的評價。我覺得今天在社會上對於扁案，大家的爭議各有所持，但是今天我們讓歷史翻頁，當歷史翻頁之後，讓總統行使他的特權，用赦免權進行特赦的方式，既不影響既有的司法判決，也不會影響到既定判定的沒收的執行，那我們就讓它回歸到讓以後的人來進行歷史評價，我認為這就是我們今天討論總統是否對扁案行使赦免權的主要意義，謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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罪行宣告無效跟前面的韓將軍一樣 罪行宣告無效但是沒有變更之前的判決好 但是 總統府說人權保障再審好 這是人權保障但是再審法官說承認本案是冤案秘書長你認同嗎 再審法官自己這樣講"},{"start":266.474,"end":294.431,"text":"沒有這是我說再審法官這是我列出來的我從新聞當中發現再審法官他承認本案是冤案為什麼再審法官會這樣講我們推敲一下因為該案唯一證據是被刑決後的自白但是已經沒有司法究竟的途徑所以透過總統以人權保障為由以免罪行之宣告給予他是不是這樣子好來在法務部次長來"},{"start":295.495,"end":304.683,"text":"市長你有沒有聽過你們曾經承辦總統跟人權委員會做的叫做228或者說政治受難或者國家不法的"},{"start":305.728,"end":331.982,"text":"回復名譽的證書頒證有沒有這個印象就平復行政不法跟司法不法什麼叫做行政不法跟司法不法那司法不法當時因為涉及到相關的司法案件當時的司法可能有問題那回復名譽是不是回復名譽他有很多回復他名譽的方式比如提出他的錢跟資料相關的那回復名譽總統是根據哪一個授權他可以頒一個回復名譽證書"},{"start":334.809,"end":337.391,"text":"請問一下過去這幾個特赦案有沒有做類似的回復名譽的宣告?"},{"start":353.888,"end":375.786,"text":"所以赦免法也不涉及到對已經司法判決的罪行當事人的名譽有沒有給他回覆並沒有觸及對不對好 所以說來我們看一下來今天的重點法務部的書面報告大赦特赦君屬政治之措施君非否定原判確定判決所確認之犯罪行為"},{"start":376.626,"end":402.213,"text":"此與今在審非常上述改判無罪,性質上有種不同請問秘書長,你認同法務部書面報告這些內容嗎?這我們都尊重你都是尊重,好啦,我也是尊重啦,既然你是尊重的話,來我們往下看所以目前貶案系數中和判決確定的有幾個案,我們看到了大概如圖所說啦請問一下,那麼秘書長,可以對停審中的案件進行特赦嗎?"},{"start":408.107,"end":431.633,"text":"這個 這個 我們其實是尊重總統如何來 次長你認為呢 因為今天從頭到尾我們秘書長都尊重我也尊重他特赦案件本部的立場是認為只限於確定案件是的為確定案件沒有 不是設懲罰那請問一下秘書長 今天有委員黃國昌董昭問說目前停審中的案件 你說要回去調查一下山中案目前是不是停審中馬前總統的山中案是不是停審中"},{"start":434.419,"end":434.779,"text":"財政事務部長"},{"start":447.714,"end":468.495,"text":"應該這個有這個規定應該其他被告也有可能所以你可以我可以推論說很多案嗎是不是這樣子聽長你點頭你說一下是不是不只一樣很多案因為裁定庭審案很多還是庭審應該不是只有這四案好那請問馬前總統的三宗案是裁定庭審還是實質庭審這個部分我們要再去查一下我告訴你他是在實質庭審他還沒有裁定庭審"},{"start":469.528,"end":491.566,"text":"所以這些大家都誤以為說目前只有扁案是有幾個案停審然後我們這個特赦會對於停審案子產生效力沒有嘛對不對缺點釐清往下看好請問今天爭議的焦點特赦後的犯罪所得應與沒收赦免法第3條只有免罪刑請問罪刑宣告無效有沒有影響到沒收的程序請問法務部"},{"start":493.33,"end":501.942,"text":"沒有,說他不是一個刑他不是一個刑嗎?他只是對不法所得的一個財產秩序的回復嗎?是不是這樣子?他不是刑嗎?秘書長你同意嗎?"},{"start":504.96,"end":527.507,"text":"沒收不是一個刑他也無法透過特赦來把免除對不對所以有不法所得人需要執行沒收的程序嗎是不是這樣子 次長是不是這樣很明確嘛好 所以呢往下看結論啦齁沒收並非刑罰免刑後人應執行沒收是不是這樣子刑罰是對人的處分沒收是剝奪財產它並不是一種刑罰你們的意見是這樣嗎"},{"start":532.068,"end":552.999,"text":"他不是用刑罰而是一種回復財產的秩序讓於犯罪人他因為不法的所得造成財產秩序回復到應有的狀態他不是一個處罰而是一個處分所以我們今天來看一下所以今天來看拉法業案有沒有成功追捕他所得"},{"start":554.821,"end":577.2,"text":"有嗎?花了多久的時間?非常多年所以拉法頁案我們看到的情況是要執行沒收並沒有完成它有沒有時效的限制?沒收按照這個司法規定它是有一些是有時效的規定的好那所以目前你們要有機會跟社會上說貶案所涉及到的有"},{"start":578.312,"end":606.902,"text":"還在沒收執行當中還無法沒收的實效如何?公文報告,現在平安這個個案已經確定了我們沒收的部分都已經執行完畢該沒收的都沒收了而這些該沒收的假設有赦免的話也不受赦免的影響?沒有錯好,最後我們來看一下這是南韓總統的特赦案這是其他國家的例子南韓的法務部表示政府才會以人道考量並期待以此促成南韓朝野理性和解政治為出發點"},{"start":608.282,"end":623.214,"text":"因此特赦的原本應該一路關到2039年的票警會好 最後我的結論今天有這個機會我要再跟大家說一下今天赦免權是司法救濟外的政治途徑市長你同意嗎他是個特別的途徑特別的途徑秘書長你"},{"start":629.611,"end":655.389,"text":"也認同嗎?我尊重尊重,好那接下來你也尊重了那我們來尊重總統職權讓爭議回歸歷史的評價我覺得今天在社會上對於貶案大家的爭議各有所持但是今天我們讓歷史翻頁當歷史翻頁之後讓總統行使他的特權用特赦的方式用赦免的方式對不起用赦免權進行特赦的方式"},{"start":656.129,"end":656.189,"text":"謝謝兩位 謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0d9153ecbfbe38421881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e4532346238ad03635c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:04:20 - 12:10:31","影片長度":"00:06:11","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":371,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:10:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T12:04:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1078,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好，我們今天來談一下農村再生基金總額提高的部分，依照財政紀律法的規定，法律案如果要增加政府的歲出，我們要具體指明彌補資金的來源，我來自農業縣，所以我很認同農村再生基金必須要提高，因為我們大家都知道許多農村房舍老舊需要翻新，整個狀況是迫在眉睫的，根據今天的報告，農村再生基金的餘額是497億元，所以立法院的同仁們，不管是藍綠、朝野，都認為這個金額不足以用來翻新、重建老舊的農村，所以我們才會提案要修法，有些委員主張法定基金從1,500億提高到3,600億，有些委員主張到4,500億，不管是3,600億或者4,500億，我都覺得對農村的幫助是非常大的。","我想要請教，如果我們先從最基礎的提高到3,600億，這跟法定的1,500億元，大概有相差兩千多億，如果分20年編列預算的話，每年大概是增加105億元的概念，這個財源農業部找不到嗎？做不到嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：關於委員版本所提到的，其實我也非常謝謝委員，就是擔心農村再生在推動的時候，經費會沒辦法持續，然後設計了這樣一個版本，如果是用這樣的方式，因為委員的版本裡面有明確的金額，這個部分就會違反相關的財政紀律法，以農業部的立場，我們沒辦法這樣處理。但是相對的，以農業部來講，我們每年大概是100億的額度在處理農村再生，未來如果經費不足的時候，從116年開始，我們可以用4年的中長程計畫去報院，如果經報院同意，照樣可以放在基金裡面，由國庫去撥補，只是剛才委員也提到，這樣子會有一些不確定性，就是行政院萬一不同意的時候，可能後面的經費就會不夠，但是農村再生大家都覺得它是一個很好的事情，我相信行政院應該也可以接受，而且我們會用最大的力量去爭取行政院的經費。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我剛才提到編列20年，或者是3,600億或4,500億的時候，我們有特別針對剛剛提到的財政紀律法，就是要增加政府預算，所以我們是請農業部去找預算，我們剛才也替農業部來想，如果如你說的以中長程計畫來長期編列預算的話，你要想的是，每年增加105億的這個財源，我們就先想好，就講4年好了，你剛剛說中長程計畫報院的話，你覺得這個可能性是做得到的嗎？因為農業部的工作就是發展農業、建設農業跟照顧農村，但是除了這個部分之外、預算的編列之外，還有相關的法條，就是很多農村共有的土地，他的老舊房屋問題是必須要修改的，所以必須要包括進來，我們一起來整體思考，就是農村再生條例本身也要一起來思考，不只是預算的部分，還有法條的部分，兩個都要共同思考進去。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：比方說我們立法委員提出了3,600億、4,500億等等不同金額的時候，則我們提出來的原因，跟它的背景、立場，我們要先想清楚，才能好去執行。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們現在講行政、立法的分際，沒關係，我們就講行政院，你剛剛提到財政紀律，這105億是做不到的嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我個人覺得，我們如果把計畫書、相關的成果跟我們要做的提到行政院，應該可以得到行政院的支持，行政院支持完了以後，主計總處就會去找相關的財源來核撥給我們，現在大概是這樣的流程。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們所有朝野立法委員提出這樣的法案，大概的背景、理由、源頭……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道、我瞭解，我想委員都非常支持經費要有持續性，這個我瞭解，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，那就再拜託、再麻煩我們所有與會的，包括過去的農委會，我們所有的官員要一起來想想看，包含我們剛剛講到法條的部分，法制上面來講，有些就是已經過時了，有些是因為財產產權的問題，所以這個必須由農業部全面來思考一下，怎麼樣來解決這個問題，不然我看到很多都是直接荒廢在那邊，10年前是這樣，5年前是這樣，今年去還是這樣，我不希望未來的5年、10年都還是一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，像農村社區，的確有一些會有比較多的產權人，然後還有一些糾紛的部分，後續我們會針對農村整個空間的規劃去做一個適度的界定，包括一些土地的界定跟農地的界定，這個部分我想不一定要全部納在法的條文裡面，在後面執行的細節，我們可以做相關的一些處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果可以不動到法就能夠處理的話，當然是更好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為很多農村的地籍等等這些東西可能會牽涉到內政部，所以我們也會跟內政部去做共同的討論，還有一些產權的部分，最主要是我們農業部有一個農村的整體規劃的話，我們就可以說服內政部，所以相對的，我想農業部還是一個主責單位，我們會儘可能的去做這樣一個思考。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，再麻煩部長，這個部分很重要，因為一直閒置在那邊還是不好的，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在現場。","我們請游顥委員，請作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.764093750000001,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.12034375,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.976593750000003,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.189718750000004,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.90659375,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.612218750000004,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.82346875,"end":94.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.04159375,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.50971875,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.81659375000001,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.75284375000001,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.76971875000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.11971875,"end":121.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.54784375000001,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.50284375,"end":141.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.91596875000002,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.43721875,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.86284375,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.00596875000002,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.52471875,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.72284375,"end":165.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.43971875,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.54846875,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.72096875,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.13659375,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.28721875000002,"end":209.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.15846875000003,"end":216.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.26721875,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.44409375,"end":234.61034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.13034375,"end":228.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.48784375000002,"end":237.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.73221875000002,"end":247.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.60409375,"end":247.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.97534375,"end":248.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.71784375000001,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.64971875,"end":252.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.66659375,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.36659375000002,"end":268.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.26409375000003,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.15784375000004,"end":277.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.66409375,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.57034375,"end":281.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.95346875,"end":291.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.46221875000003,"end":300.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.76034375,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.97409375,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.39534375,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.27221875000004,"end":336.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.06284375,"end":339.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.97784375000003,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.04534375000003,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.41846875000005,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.80159375,"end":363.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.21471875000003,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.86846875000003,"end":367.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.58534375000005,"end":368.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.85096875000005,"end":369.20534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.083,"end":1.004,"text":"請做巡檔主席,麻煩請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":23.17,"end":37.974,"text":"部長好,我們今天來談一下這個農村再生基金的總額提高的部分。那我想依照這個財政紀律法的規定,法律案如果要增加政府的稅出,我們要具體的指明彌補資金的來源。"},{"start":41.796,"end":59.486,"text":"我來自農業縣,所以我是很認同說農村再生基金是必須要提高的因為我們大家都知道說許多農村的這些房舍老舊需要翻新等等那整個狀況那是迫在眉睫的那我根據今天的報告農村再生基金的餘額是497億元"},{"start":61.747,"end":84.318,"text":"立法院的同仁們不管是藍綠草野都認為這個不足以用來翻新重建老舊的農村所以我們才會提案要修法那有些委員主張是從法定基金的1500億提高到3600億有些委員主張到4500億那不管是3600億或者是4500億我都覺得對農村的幫助是非常大的那我想要請教"},{"start":85.882,"end":104.661,"text":"如果說我們先從最基礎的提高到3600億跟法定的1500億元大概有相差2000多億如果分20年做編列預算的話那每年大概是增加105億元的概念這個財源農業部找不到嗎做不到嗎"},{"start":107.179,"end":124.006,"text":"我想委員版本所提到的其實我也非常謝謝委員就是擔心這個農村再生在推動的時候經會沒辦法持續啦然後有設計了這樣的一個版本以現在農業部如果說用這樣的方式因為委員的版本裡面有明確的"},{"start":125.026,"end":125.686,"text":"條例第十五條條例第十五條條例第十五條條例第十五條條例"},{"start":154.497,"end":158.739,"text":"我相信行政院應該也可以去接受而且我們會用最大的力量去爭取行政院的一個經費"},{"start":174.744,"end":175.164,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":196.365,"end":218.019,"text":"我想我們先想好嘛,我們就講四年就好了,你剛剛講說中長城抱怨的話,你就這個可能性不是做得到的嗎?因為農業部的工作就是發展農業、建設農業跟照顧農村,但是除了這個部分之外,預算的編列之外,還有這個法條,就是說很多農村共有的土地,它的老舊房屋問題,這必須要修改的嘛,所以"},{"start":218.519,"end":234.448,"text":"他必須要包括我們一起來思考整體就是說農村再生條例裡面本身也要來講因為不只是預算的部分法條的部分兩個都要共同進去思考我們不能夠我覺得我們的立法委員提出3600億、4500億或是等等不同的金額的時候"},{"start":235.526,"end":250.364,"text":"我們提出來的這個原因跟他這個背景的立場我們要先想清楚我們才會好去執行那既然是由行政院我們現在講行政、立法來分級沒關係我們就講行政院你剛剛提到說財政紀律那一百零五億這個是做不到的嗎?"},{"start":252.694,"end":267.162,"text":"我個人覺得就是說我們如果把這個計畫書的相關的成果跟我們要做的提到行政院應該可以得到行政院的支持那行政院支持完了以後主席總處那邊就會去找相關的財源來合撥給我們"},{"start":268.203,"end":277.249,"text":"那我想這也是我們所有草原的立法委員大概提出這樣的法案的背景跟理由。這個源頭很重要。那再麻煩我們這個所有的與會的這個過去的農委會我們的所有的官員要一起來想想看,包含我們剛剛講到的法條的部分"},{"start":292.32,"end":294.082,"text":"法治上來講有些已經過世有些是因為財產產權的問題必須由農業部"},{"start":300.802,"end":325.081,"text":"全面來去思考一下,怎麼樣來解決這個問題,不然我看到很多都是直接荒廢在那邊,十年前是這樣,五年前是這樣,今年去還是這樣,我不希望未來的五年十年還都一樣。我跟委員說明,像特別農村社區的確有一些產權,一些比較多的產權人,然後有一些糾紛的部分,後續我想我們會真的農村的整個空間的一個規劃去做適度的一個界定,包括一些土地的一個"},{"start":325.902,"end":330.565,"text":"修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":344.772,"end":367.664,"text":"所以我們也會跟內政部去做共同的討論還有一些產權的部分還有一些最主要是我們農業部有一個農村的整體規劃的話我們就可以說服內政部啦所以相對的我想農業部還是一個組織單位我們會盡可能的去做這樣的一個思考好那再麻煩部長這個是很重要因為我看閒置在那邊還是不好的好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0bd6c930f3b5b1b6cad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45fe680d73defe47205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:57:41 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12:08:56","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":675,"end_time":"2024-05-15T12:08:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:57:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時57分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。我上次在質詢的時候，跟部長交換過意見。"],["吳部長釗燮：有。"],["黃委員國昌：我們臺灣人非常的善良，世界各地需要臺灣人的協助，我們永遠願意伸出溫暖的雙手。上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說，我們援外的這些計畫，廉正跟透明的基本要求非常重要，上次部長你也表示肯定嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。上次4月15號在外交及國防委員會的詢答，我提到我們臺灣透過CABEI所提出的各式各樣援助，甚至對於我們的前邦交國宏都拉斯所提供的一些援助，那我也給您時間，也裁示說您兩個禮拜之內，書面報告要給我們，但我到目前為止還沒拿到。"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下，上次質詢之後，我們就有很積極地去跟CABEI討論，因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做往返，很快、很快就會上網了。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我知道您明天就要總辭了，您要到另外一個位置去，但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則，我覺得是重要的，就是說到要做到。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，我們會儘量做到。"],["黃委員國昌：如果說到沒有做到，事先來解釋，可能是有必要的吧！我到今天站在這個質詢臺以前，我癡癡地等，我等不到東西，外交部沒有遵守4月15號的承諾，也沒有人來說明，部長，您覺得這樣OK嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這樣子可能不是很好，但是跟委員報告，我們有在努力，而且很快就會上網了，應該……"],["黃委員國昌：分兩個部分，你要做的努力，你去做努力，而且我老實說，這個承諾不是在這一次國會才做的。上一屆國會的時候，台灣民眾黨的邱臣遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求，只是我們那個時候針對我們對於CABEI的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCRP開始合作，在我們跟國際反貪腐組織一起合作的計畫release出來以後，部長您可以去看，那個合作計畫在國際媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響，也促成了CABEI進一步的改革，當然Mossi也是因為那件事情，其實大部分的國家都不支持他了。但我要說的是，真的只有一個非常簡單的道理，就是你們遇到困難在時間之內東西交不出來，我相信絕大多數的立委都很理性，你只要有說明，我們都可以給寬限，但連講都沒講這樣就不對。"],["吳部長釗燮：我們同仁說已經有提供書面資料了。"],["黃委員國昌：在哪裡？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們當初質詢結束之後，幾天之內就已經提供書面資料給委員辦公室了。"],["黃委員國昌：我必須要跟部長講，我會再回去查，但我今天在這邊質詢，到目前為止，我還沒有收到那樣的list，我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個函我們本身會有本文，我們也會調出來讓委員知道。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以。第二個，我上次在質詢的時候也提到宏國第一夫人遭貪腐判刑，之前是判得比較久，到2022年的時候14年for corruption，在上面你應該看得很清楚，上次我提到我們給宏都拉斯援外的計畫，被他們的夫人拿去貪腐，您上次給我的答復是「那不是錢，跟我們這邊沒有關係」，但我後來去調聯合國針對宏國所成立的fight against corruption委員會所提出來的調查報告寫得很清楚，錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的，與您上次跟我所做的回復完全不一樣，部長，可不可以請您說明一下。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我倒是沒有注意到聯合國的這份報告，我請我們實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["鄭司長力城：跟委員報告，當初這個案子爆發的時候是計畫已經執行完之後，當地的新聞揭露有17萬被貪污的錢可能是來自我方，當時因為還有邦交，我們的同仁立刻就去跟檢調單位關切，檢調單位說因為還在清查過程當中，他們不排除有來自我方的錢，但是最後的判決書上面沒有指陳款項的來源……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下、等一下，先停一下喔！您現在看，我螢幕上面秀出來的是那個委員會它們做出來的調查報告，它講得很具體喔！是從2011年到2014年，前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金是來自各種來源的捐款，包括來自臺灣，當然我們在外面的外交處境很艱困，所以它們委員會寫中國臺灣，我自己看了也不是很舒服，但我們就事論事，就是人家的調查說有來自臺灣，但部長跟我說跟臺灣沒有關係，所以我就覺得很困惑了。好，我們進一步去看，2022年最近的一個判決，Bonilla被判處14年有期徒刑的時候，在這個判決書裡面，現在我放在左手邊的是他們法院在判決以後所公布的新聞稿，在新聞稿裡面說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫，在這個計畫裡面他簽了假合約，把錢給套出來，來，我具體地問這個計畫是不是臺灣支持的？"],["吳部長釗燮：我請我們的司長來回復。"],["黃委員國昌：是，可以。我為什麼說援外計畫要公開透明？我查了預算書、我到了國合會的網站，所有國內可以找的公開資訊，我負責任地講我全部都找完了，我不知道，但那邊的判決書、外媒的報導這個計畫是臺灣support的，所以我要請教一下外交部，這個宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是臺灣support的？因為判決書講得很清楚，錢是從這邊污的。"],["鄭司長力城：報告委員，我們跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫，但是他貪污的錢是不是都是從臺灣的這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下，這是兩個不同的概念喔！都是臺灣的跟他貪污的錢有從臺灣來的，這是兩個不同的概念嘛！我從頭到尾沒有說都是臺灣來的喔！那個委員會的調查報告寫了，來源很多，包括了外媒，那調查委員會特別點出是從臺灣援助的這個計畫來的，因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚，今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了，不是我們的錯，是他們的錯，這個我不會因為錢被他們的前總統夫人污了，責怪我們外交部的同仁。我向來就事論事，做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人，怎麼可以把臺灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服、買鞋子的錢都污了，可惡！有罪的是他們的前總統夫人，但問題是什麼？問題是這件事情被污了，我希望臺灣要有立場，要有立場，我們有立場是因為污錢的是他們的前總統夫人，臺灣人可以站直腰桿，跟宏國人民說我們很痛心啊！我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被污了，這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場，而不是發生這件事情以後……這是客觀的事實，在國會裡面，部長說這個錢跟臺灣沒有關係，但跟外媒的報導、跟調查委員會的報告，甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿，全部都不符合啊！部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下？因為我已經從外媒、調查委員會、法院的新聞稿，我全部都把事情給找出來了，再確定一下，再確定一下，錢是不是從臺灣來？如果錢是從臺灣來的，我相信我們挺直腰桿說該說的話，會贏得國際社會的尊重。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，兩點跟委員回應，以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟宏國相關的這個事情，最後我們去查是沒有查到跟我們有相關，委員既然再提出來，我請我們的同仁再來查，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家人民的錢，作為他們私人的資金，我們是絕對反對的，如果有這些事情的話，我們加以譴責。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好，其實我要的只有這個態度，因為我知道從現實上面來看錢都被人家污走了，要討也討不回來，但我們在進行外交工作的時候，這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢地講，我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重。至於剛剛部長所講的第一點，因為你要離任了嘛，但是你可不可以承諾，請外交部的同仁把它查清楚了以後，給我一個書面報告正式的回復？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個沒有問題，我們的同仁會努力。"],["黃委員國昌：這個沒有問題嘛，需要多久？"],["吳部長釗燮：兩個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜，好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：下面請馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.37659375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.21096875,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.25721875,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.62721875,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.137218750000002,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.090343750000002,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.69284375,"end":31.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.73471875,"end":39.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.29534375,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.83909375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.314718750000004,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.010343750000004,"end":59.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.852843750000005,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.18971875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.84721875000001,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.29409375,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.26659375,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.59471875000001,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.87721875000001,"end":98.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.96909375,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.79596875,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.51659375000001,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.14471875000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.78159375000001,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.67159375000001,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.10596875,"end":115.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.54034375,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.18971875000001,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.18096875,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.44221875000001,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.63971875000001,"end":128.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.17534375,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.55846875,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.11909375000002,"end":143.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.21096875,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.43784375,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.62659375,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.92596875,"end":159.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.98909375000002,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.10159375,"end":175.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.90221875,"end":187.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.00159375,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.64159375,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.92846875,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.97909375,"end":196.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.37971875000002,"end":203.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.71721875,"end":200.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.04971875,"end":204.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.80471875,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.05784375000002,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.63971875000001,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.17096875000001,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.82471875000002,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.57034375,"end":223.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.37596875000003,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.91159375,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.28284375,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.92784375000002,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.24846875,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.42971875,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.58159375000002,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.02846875,"end":233.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.48409375000003,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.12096875,"end":238.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.79534375000003,"end":240.51659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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麻煩有請部長請部長法務委員好部長我上次在質詢的時候跟部長交換過意見我們台灣台灣人非常的善良世界各地需要台灣人的協助我們永遠是願意伸出我們溫暖的雙手"},{"start":25.622,"end":46.485,"text":"上次跟部長建立了一個原則是說我們在員外的時候的這些計畫廉政跟透明的基本要求非常的重要上次部長你也表示肯定嘛那上一次4月15號在外交國防委員會裡面的時候的詢答我也提到了我們台灣"},{"start":47.686,"end":70.308,"text":"透過咖啡所提出的各式各樣的援助甚至對於當初我們的前邦交國洪都拉斯所提供的一些援助那我也給您時間那也才是了說您兩個禮拜之內書面包要給我們但我到目前為止沒拿到"},{"start":71.785,"end":98.542,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們其實那個上次的諮詢之後我們就有很積極的去跟卡貝去跟他們討論那因為有一些涉及到很多細節的部分在跟他們做那個往返那很快很快就會上網了很快部長我知道您明天就要總辭了那您要到另外一個位置去但我覺得在國會我們建立一個基本的原則我覺得是重要的就是說到要做到"},{"start":99.873,"end":121.262,"text":"如果說到沒有做到事先來解釋可能是有必要的嘛我到今天站在這個質詢台以前我痴痴的等我等不到東西外交部沒有遵守那個時候4月15號的承諾也沒有人來說明部長您覺得這樣OK嗎"},{"start":123.173,"end":143.315,"text":"這樣子可能不是很好但是跟委員報告我們有在努力而且很快的就會上網了分兩個部分嘛你要做的努力你去做努力而且我老實說齁這個承諾不是在這一次國會的時候才做的喔上一屆國會的時候台灣民眾黨的邱承遠委員其實也提出了這樣的要求"},{"start":144.264,"end":156.917,"text":"那只是我們那個時候開始在針對我們對於卡貝的援助跟國際的反貪腐組織OCCPR我們開始合作的時候那個時候對於我們"},{"start":160.06,"end":187.272,"text":"跟國際的反貪腐組織我們一起合作的計畫release出來了以後其實部長您可以去看那個合作計畫在國際的媒體圈其實引發了相當大的迴響也促成了卡貝進一步的改革那當然啦MOSI也是因為那件事情其實大部分的國家都不支持他了但我要說的是真的只有一個非常簡單的道理就是"},{"start":188.112,"end":191.093,"text":"各位演講我們同仁說已經有提供書面的資料了在哪裡?你什麼時候提供?當天結束的時候大概兩天"},{"start":213.261,"end":240.183,"text":"我們當初就是那個質詢結束之後幾天之內就已經提供書面的這個資料給委員的辦公室了我必須要跟部長講我會再回去查但我今天在這邊質詢的時候我到目前為止我還沒有收到那樣的list我會後會再跟外交部的同仁check到底是哪一個環節出了問題我們本身會有本文我們這個也調出來讓委員知道好 可以第二個"},{"start":241.204,"end":258.849,"text":"我上次在質詢的時候也提到紅國的第一夫人遭貪腐判刑之前是判了比較久到2022年的時候14年for corruption在上面你應該看得很清楚上次我提到說"},{"start":261.55,"end":281.812,"text":"我們給宏都拉斯基本上面的員外的計畫被他們的夫人拿去貪腐你上次給我的答覆是那不是錢跟我們這邊沒有關係但我後來去調我後來去調聯合國針對在宏國他們所成立的"},{"start":282.973,"end":308.151,"text":"去Fight Against Corruption的這個委員會他們出來的調查報告寫得很清楚他出來的調查報告錢的確是我們提供給宏都拉斯的跟您上次跟我所做的回覆完全不一樣部長可不可以請您說明一下這個部分倒是我沒有注意到那個聯合國的這個報告我請我們的同仁實際上在掌握這個業務的同仁跟委員說明好"},{"start":311.885,"end":335.793,"text":"當初在這個案子爆發的時候是計劃已經執行完之後那當地的新聞有揭露說可能有17萬的那一個被貪污的錢是可能來自我方那我們的同仁當時因為還有邦交立刻就去跟那個檢調單位那個關切檢調單位說因為還在清查的過程當中他們不排除由來自我方的錢"},{"start":336.533,"end":347.848,"text":"但是最後的判決書上面沒有指成那個款項的來源那等一下等一下等一下先停一下喔您現在看齁我螢幕上面秀出來的"},{"start":349.059,"end":377.826,"text":"那個是那個委員會他們做出來的調查報告他講的很具體喔是從2011年到2014年前總統任內的時候有高達400萬美金來自各種來源的捐款包括來自台灣那當然啦我們在外面的外交處境很艱困所以他們的委員會寫中國台灣我自己看了也不是很舒服但我們就是認識就是人家的調查說有來自台灣"},{"start":378.826,"end":399.722,"text":"但部長跟我說跟台灣沒有關係所以我就覺得很困惑了我們進一步的去看說2022年就最近的一個判決柏妮娜被判處14年有期徒刑的時候在這個判決書裡面現在我放在左手邊的這個是他們的法院在判決了以後所公布的新聞稿"},{"start":400.643,"end":419.39,"text":"在新聞稿裡面呢 寫說2010年到2014年啟動宏都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計劃那在這個計劃裡面他簽了假合約把錢給套出來然後我具體的問這個計劃是不是台灣支持的我請我們的市長來"},{"start":422.648,"end":437.382,"text":"因為我吼我為什麼說員外的計畫要公開透明我查了預算書我到了國和會的網站所以所有國內可以找的公開資訊我負責任的講我全部都找完了我不知道但那邊的判決書外媒的報導這個計畫是台灣support的"},{"start":445.123,"end":453.415,"text":"所以我要請教一下外交部這個洪都拉斯兒童鞋子與制服計畫是不是台灣support的因為判決書講得很清楚錢是從這邊汙的"},{"start":455.785,"end":476.694,"text":"報告委員,我們在跟第一夫人辦公室的很多社福計畫裡面確實有類似的計畫,但是他貪污的錢是不是都是台灣的這個部分?等一下,這是兩個不同的概念,都是台灣的跟他貪污的錢有從台灣來的,這是兩個不同的概念,我從頭到尾沒有說都是台灣來的"},{"start":478.24,"end":500.078,"text":"那個委員會的調查報告寫了來源很多包括了在外媒在調查委員會特別點出了是從台灣援助的這個計畫來的因為我希望把客觀的事實弄清楚今天我們援助的錢被他們前總統夫人污了不是我們的錯是他們的錯"},{"start":501.682,"end":521.114,"text":"這個我不會因為說錢被他們的前總統夫人汙了責怪我們外交部的統人我上來就事論事做錯事的是他們的前總統夫人怎麼可以把台灣人要援助宏都拉斯小孩子買衣服買鞋子的錢都汙了可惡有罪的是他們的前總統夫人但問題是什麼但問題是這件事情被汙了"},{"start":532.789,"end":560.032,"text":"臺灣我希望要有立場要有立場我們有立場是屋前的是他們的前總統夫人臺灣人可以停我們可以暫時腰桿跟紅國人民說我們很痛心我們要援助你們小朋友的就這樣子被屋了這個是我覺得我們應該有的立場而不是發生了這件事情了以後客觀的事實"},{"start":562.13,"end":588.922,"text":"在國會裡面部長說這個錢跟台灣沒有關係但跟外媒的報導跟調查委員會的報告甚至連他們法院release的新聞稿全部都不符合啊部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道這個事情是不是可以請外交部的同仁再確定一下因為我已經從外媒調查委員會的法院的新聞稿"},{"start":590.031,"end":590.372,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":605.411,"end":634.351,"text":"兩點跟委員回應就是以前也曾經有一些媒體報導跟黃國相關的這個事情那到最後我們去查是沒有查到說有跟我們有相關那委員既然再提出來了我請我們的同仁再來查這是第一件事情第二件事情我們也非常反對挪用我們要協助其他國家的這個人民的錢作為他們的那個私人的這個資金這個我們是絕對反對的那如果有這些事情的話我們加以譴責"},{"start":636.052,"end":659.466,"text":"非常好 其實我要的只有這個態度因為我知道從現實上面錢都被人家汙走了要討什麼也討不回來但我們在進行外交工作的時候這一點我們的原則要挺直腰桿勇敢的講我覺得這樣子絕對會得到國際社會的尊重至於剛剛部長所講的第一點因為你要離任了吧"},{"start":660.006,"end":667.853,"text":"但是你可不可以承諾說外交部的同仁把他查清楚了以後給我一個書面報告正式的回覆這個沒有問題這個沒有問題嗎需要多久兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152531","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c018a4d6e2a1e5738aad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45356d507e2e3f6be45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:47:58 - 11:57:26","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":568,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:57:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:47:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時47分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員你好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天有好幾個團體針對我們要參加WHA召開記者會，臺灣有21個醫事團體在今天召開記者會，我們從2017年到現在邁入第八年，我們一直都沒辦法參與WHA，我相信很多人都非常瞭解是因為中國的打壓，造成臺灣沒辦法參加WHA這樣的世界衛生大會。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想外交部應該做過很多的努力，當然中國的打壓是無所不在，任何形式的打壓，我們也看到美國國務卿布林肯公開鼓勵還有支持，可是這一屆我們還是沒收到邀請函，針對這部分，因為5月27號就要召開大會，我想請教外交部，今天衛福部的國際合作組也有過來，請教外交部在這方面要怎麼去突破？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員。有關我們參加世界衛生組織，這是一條滿艱辛的道路，尤其是中國在國際組織所動員的Global South，也就是全球南方的這些國家數量算是相當龐大，為了讓我們接下來能順利參與世界衛生組織，我們也跟一些友盟國家，尤其是美國，都有定期針對國際組織的參與進行討論，像美國或是其他友盟國家對於我們的參與都非常支持，也在想辦法結合更多理念相近的國家來力挺我們，在過去這段時間，我們看到支持我們的這些國家，不管是用發言的方式、聯合逕洽的方式或是用聯名函的方式，這些國家是愈來愈多、層級是愈來愈高。另外，有很多國家的國會議員對我們臺灣的參與也是非常支持，他們用決議案的方式或者是聯名函的方式，我們都可以感受得到，所以接下來如果有更多國家支持我們的話，我相信我們到最後要參與應該會水到渠成。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，其實臺灣沒辦法參加WHA也是世界的損失，我們看到臺灣在醫療方面做得非常好，尤其在公共衛生的區塊是世界有目共睹的，在這幾年疫情期間，Taiwan Can Help，臺灣真的幫助世界上很多的國家。我們也看到臺灣有很多醫療或公衛的人才，我們從公的部分可能走不出去，但也許可以從民間的力量來協助，我們看到這次有很多醫療團體要自費去參與一些周邊的會議，我們也希望未來的新內閣應該要有更多的資源或是協助，讓這些醫療或是公衛背景的優秀人才可以透過民間的力量、民間的組織來參與。"],["吳部長釗燮：當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，未來你是到國安會當秘書長，我相信未來的部長應該也會繼續延續下去，我是不是可以先請教部長，未來我們要怎麼做？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關跟NGO、一些民間團體的合作，這都是一致的方向，我們的協助是不遺餘力，有些民間團體希望能協助政府參與，我們都提供他們一些必要的協助，像是我們臺灣醫師會，接下來的衛福部長本身是臺灣醫師會非常重要的幹部，之前我跟他的合作關係也非常密切，要確保臺灣醫師會能在我們參與世界衛生組織的過程中扮演重要的角色和力量，我想這種精神會持續下去，畢竟這就是我們臺灣在全世界各地能夠展現的一個最好的力量。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們臺灣一般民眾會覺得臺灣確實在國際地位上要走出去有困難，可是民間的力量確實是無窮的，民間的力量可以透過NGO組織讓臺灣走出去，所以我也希望未來的新內閣真的要朝著這個方向努力。另外我想請教，雖然我們現在的邦交國剩下十多個，非邦交國像是美國、英國、日本、韓國都跟我們沒有邦交，可是跟我們都有很好的互動，也衍生出非邦交國這樣的另一種合作模式，我想請教未來怎麼樣透過這些國家，雖然我們沒有邦交，可是我們還是在他們的國家設有辦事處，要怎麼樣互相合作，也讓他們認同臺灣？另外，我還有看到立陶宛的臺灣代表處，我們現在是「駐立陶宛台灣代表處」，因為他們目前正在競選的關係，原本駐立陶宛的臺灣代表處會不會被更名？我是不是可以先請教一下部長？"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，先回答第二個問題，有關立陶宛的部分，他們現在是總統選舉，10月還會有一個國會議員的選舉，在選舉的時候，民主國家都會推出各式各樣的議題，目前他們的總統有提過好幾次不同的說法，我們會密切關注，但是我們跟他們之間的協議涉及到我們代表處的名稱，這是一個很嚴肅的兩國之間的協議，這個權力應該是在他們的內閣手上，到目前為止，我們看不出他們的內閣會針對這個事情有所討論。相反地，即使目前的反對黨在未來可能成為執政黨，他們在這個議題上也非常力挺跟臺灣之間的關係，所以這個事情要請國人放心，接下來應該不會有任何的變動。","第二個問題涉及到原來的第一個問題，也涉及到過去幾年外交部的努力，我們都知道中國對於我們的邦交國花了很多力氣、用了很多資源，我們如果不像中國那樣子，用一些不當的資源、浪費國人的納稅錢去處理，我們如果不這樣子去處理的話，那個壓力一定會在，那在這個壓力的狀況之下，我們必須要去開拓更多的國際空間，也就是跟我們沒有邦交，但是可以跟我們發展很好的合作關係的這些國家，包括美國、加拿大、英國、歐盟主要的國家，或者是中東歐的國家等等，在過去這一段時間，我們臺灣跟這些國家的關係讓國人看到了，我想總統所形容的就是我們上架臺灣，這個是我們共同努力的結果，那在國際的重要場合，我們臺灣也成為一個重要的關鍵字，也就是大家在重要聚會的時候，都會提到臺海的和平穩定非常重要，關乎全球的和平與繁榮，這個就是我們努力的方向，讓全世界看到我們臺灣的美好，這個方向我們會持續下去。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我們也看到這八年當中，外交部真的非常辛苦，確實在這八年當中，也讓所有人民可以感受到我們臺灣國際地位的提升，所以再次感謝部長，也希望你未來在新的崗位上，也能夠讓總統有更多的協助，以上，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.16159375,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.329093750000002,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.54284375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.10096875,"end":171.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.37659375,"end":164.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.52284375000002,"end":175.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.48034375,"end":253.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.08284375000002,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.28471875000002,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.92596875,"end":240.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.98284375000003,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.14409375,"end":335.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.26971875000004,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.14721875000004,"end":375.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.12409375000004,"end":379.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.81971875000005,"end":380.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.54534375000003,"end":398.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.42909375000005,"end":395.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.36534375,"end":457.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.45721875000004,"end":542.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.19034375,"end":519.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.2922187500001,"end":566.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.6640937500001,"end":567.30096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.37,"text":"請部長委員你好"},{"start":10.636,"end":16.418,"text":"今天有好幾個團體針對我們要參加WHA的記者會台灣有21個醫師團體今天召開記者會我們從2017年一直到現在邁入第8年我們都一直沒辦法參與WHA我相信很多人都可以"},{"start":38.865,"end":62.74,"text":"我非常了解是因為中國的打壓造成台灣沒辦法來參加這個WHA的這樣的世界衛生大會那我想這個外交部應該也做過很多的努力當然中國的打壓是無所不在任何形式的這個打壓那我們也看到就是說美國"},{"start":64.622,"end":91.121,"text":"國務卿布林肯也公開的鼓勵還有支持可是這一屆我們還是沒有收到邀請函我想請教部長針對這一部分因為5月27號就要召開大會我想請教外交部或者是今天也有衛福部我們國際合作組也有過來我想請教外交部在這方面我們要怎麼去突破"},{"start":92.465,"end":110.63,"text":"非常謝謝委員有關於我們參加世界衛生組織這是一條蠻艱辛的一條道路尤其是中國在國際組織裡面他們所能夠動員的Global South就是全球南方的這些國家的數量算是相當的龐大"},{"start":112.19,"end":136.78,"text":"為了要讓我們接下來能夠順利的參與世界衛生組織那我們也跟這些有盟國家尤其是美國都有定期的針對國際組織的這個參與來進行討論那像美國或者是說其他的一些有盟國家對於我們的參與他們也都非常的支持也在想辦法去結合更多的這些理念向近國家來力挺我們"},{"start":137.7,"end":164.168,"text":"在過去這段時間我們看到支持我們的這些國家不管是用這種發言的方式或者是聯合競洽的方式或者是說用聯名函的這種方式這個國家是越來越多成績是越來越高那另外也有很多的國家的這個國會議員他們對我們台灣的這個參與也是非常的支持他們用決議案的方式或者是聯名函的這個方式我們都可以感受得到"},{"start":164.688,"end":192.261,"text":"所以接下來如果說有更多的國家能夠支持我們的話我相信到最後我們要參與應該是會水到渠成其實台灣沒辦法來參加這個WHA其實這個也是世界的損失啦其實我們看到台灣在這個醫療方面其實都做得非常的好尤其是在公衛公共衛生這個區塊其實是世界有目共睹的那在疫情這"},{"start":193.181,"end":193.301,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":216.684,"end":217.405,"text":"王秀芳議員"},{"start":231.581,"end":253.122,"text":"医疗或者是有公衛背景的这些非常优秀的这些人才可以透过民间的力量民间的组织来参与那我是请教部长未来你是到国安会当秘书长那我相信未来的部长应该也可以再继续延续下去那我是不是可以先请教部长未来我们要怎么做"},{"start":254.402,"end":276.616,"text":"有關於跟那個NGO一些民間團體的這個合作這個都是一致的這個方向那我們這邊的這種協助是不遺餘力所以有一些民間團體他們希望能夠協助政府來參與我們都提供他們一些必要的這些協助那像那個我們臺灣醫師會接下來的我們的那個衛福部長"},{"start":277.296,"end":301.648,"text":"他本身就是台灣醫師會的這種非常重要的幹部那之前我跟他之間的那個合作關係也是非常的密切要確保說我們台灣醫師會能夠在我們參與世界衛生組織的這個過程當中能夠扮演重要的這種角色和力量那我想這種精神會持續下去畢竟這個就是我們台灣在全世界各地能夠展現的一個最好的一個力量是"},{"start":302.869,"end":317.508,"text":"其實我覺得一般的民眾台灣一般的民眾會覺得說台灣確實在國際的這個地位要走出去有它的困難可是民間的力量確實是無窮的民間的力量可以透過NGO的這個組織然後讓台灣走出去"},{"start":320.672,"end":320.933,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":336.249,"end":362.503,"text":"那應該非邦交國其實像美國、英國、日本、韓國其實都跟我們沒有邦交可是跟我們都有很好的互動那也這個衍生出來可能就非邦交國的這樣另外一個出路的另外一種模式就是另外一種的合作模式那我想請教就是說未來怎麼樣透過這些我們跟他雖然是沒有邦交可是我們還是"},{"start":363.964,"end":377.353,"text":"在他們的那邊有設辦事處在他們的國家有設辦事處那要怎麼樣去互相去合作那也讓他認同台灣那我們互相合作那另外我還有看到就是說立陶宛的這個"},{"start":380.656,"end":397.715,"text":"看到台灣代表處,我們現在是駐立陶宛的台灣代表處,那因為他們目前正在競選的關係,那也許會不會原本駐立陶宛的台灣代表處會不會被更名?我是不是可以先請教一下部長?"},{"start":399.017,"end":417.794,"text":"謝謝委員先回答第二個問題就是有關於立陶宛的部分的確他們現在是總統的選舉然後10月還會有一個國會議員的選舉在選舉的時候民主國家各式各樣的議題都會退出來目前他們的總統有提過好幾次不同的說法"},{"start":419.495,"end":437.899,"text":"我們也會密切的關注但是有關於我們跟他們之間的這個協議涉及到我們的那個代表處的名稱這個是一個很嚴肅的這個兩國之間的這個協議那這個權利應該是在他們的內閣手上那到目前為止我們看不出來說他們內閣會針對這個事情有所討論那相反的"},{"start":442.141,"end":456.842,"text":"即使是未來可能成為執政黨的目前的反對黨他們在這個議題上面他們也非常力挺跟台灣之間的這個關係所以這個事情要請國人放心說接下來應該是不會有任何的變動"},{"start":458.616,"end":474.799,"text":"第二個問題也是涉及到就是原來的第一個問題那這涉及到過去這幾年之間我們外交部的這個努力我們都知道那個中國對於我們的這個邦交國的這個部分就是花了很多的力氣用了很多的這些資源"},{"start":475.62,"end":475.66,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":490.558,"end":490.578,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":520.858,"end":541.58,"text":"在國際的重要場合我們台灣也成為一個重要的關鍵字也就是大家在重要的聚會的時候都會提到臺海的和平穩定非常重要關乎全球的和平與繁榮那這個就是我們努力的這個方向讓全世界看到我們台灣的美好那這個方向我們會持續下去"},{"start":542.401,"end":542.421,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0671094dfe3d6f64c881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45ce2844124dec03b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:41:22 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11:50:47","影片長度":"00:09:25","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":565,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:50:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:41:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時41分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請農業部部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我知道上午幾位委員都有針對荔枝樁象的議題跟你就教，你也講到要深刻檢討。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我真的很懷疑，農業部已經不是第一次發生創意食材的爭議，記不記得之前也有要推廣蝶豆花入菜，同樣有踩到紅線，因為國內不能把整個蝶豆花吃下去嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在又發生這個荔枝椿象的議題，我們能不能討論一下，部長，說實在話，本席開宗明義講，公務員有創意，我覺得某種程度上不是壞事，為什麼？因為我們要鼓勵大家做事，過去的文化是多做多錯、少做少錯、不做不錯，所以我乾脆就不要去做，我就沒有錯，不會變成新聞焦點。當然今天的爭議是在於，明明不是一個可食用的食材，你卻把它變成是一個食用的食材，引發爭議，跟衛福部這邊，所以未來如果要推廣任何一個活動，有可能跨部會要先做討論，這點你同意嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，就是以現在研究單位在開發相關的食材，他們會搜尋，目前衛福部不是列為可用食材，但是在國外是一個可用食材，所以他們覺得有機會在國內變成可用食材，他們就開始研發了。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在是要push衛福部去修法、修相關認定？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們跟衛福部針對可用食材有定期的一些檢討，如果農業部發現一些目前沒有登錄為可用食材的，只要我們提出證明，符合一些相關規定，沒有毒性等等，這些規範給他們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以多久開一次會？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們大概半年會把我們開發的這些相關的可能項目，目前沒有列到可用食材的，我們會提給他，然後看他們的意見，並且我們會開始準備相關資料，因為有些資料需要毒理試驗，我們就會去啟動這方面的研究。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長講到一個新點，所以你接下來是要請衛福部認定荔枝椿象為可用食材？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個要看可用食材本身是可被消費者接受的，這個接受不是口味的接受，還有觀念的接受……"],["洪委員孟楷：觀感的接受。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，都要考慮。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有大家的飲食文化的接受。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個非常重要，如果不符合我們的飲食的話，我們絕對不能推。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，所以部長你講了半天，我們現在就事論事，就是說荔枝椿象這個議題是在於推廣這個活動之前沒有找衛福部溝通嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以貿然推出之後，造成大家一片譁然，怎麼會……如果是一般夜市，它可能會有觸法的問題，但一般民眾他不會去販賣這個，而且販賣可能會違反食安法嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個就是我要說……"],["洪委員孟楷：可是我們公部門帶頭作業一定是符合相關法規，結果沒有符合相關法規，這是一個。部長，我要問的其實是後面更重要的問題，為什麼要去推廣油炸荔枝椿象？是不是因為荔枝椿象在某種程度上有危害到我們現在的環境跟生活？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我跟委員說明，實際的狀況是，這是在一個環境教育的課程，因為環境教育的課程他只是去展示，可能在其他的國家是可以用的，他只是在那邊去做一個示範，並沒有去做到推廣的動作。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，但是我們現在在講的是荔枝椿象是近年來新興的入侵外來種，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：已經一段時間了。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後對於中南部來說，對於荔枝或是龍眼都造成嚴重的危害，甚至本席的選區淡水地區也有民眾講說，他現在不是在果樹上發現，他是在一般的田間、一般的路上，走路散步時發現無患子的樹枝上面就有3到5隻的荔枝椿象。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，也會有。"],["洪委員孟楷：對。對於地方政府來說，對於荔枝椿象，農業局或是一些單位可能會有一些防護措施，但是其他的局處其實沒有，那中央有沒有統一標準？針對這個部分，如果民眾遇到，或者是地方政府應該要怎麼樣去因應？本席推敲的就是，為什麼我們中南部的局處會去辦這樣的一個活動？可能他也想的是，造成危害，除了用農藥，除了用其他生態平衡的方式，有沒有其他可能可以抑制這個外來種害蟲的一個方式。我現在要問的其實更直接，對於荔枝椿象在各縣市越來越多，造成我們民眾的生活有疑慮，也有講到荔枝椿象的毒液、牠的汁液會有毒，會造成皮膚的潰爛，現在中央有沒有明確的規定跟方式？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，荔枝椿象的防治現在最大的盲點就是並沒有啟動區域的防治，而是個別的防治，這個區域防治不只是在農業區，農業區要區域防治，現在有很多休閒的步道，也會發生旁邊的樹木會有一些。所以我其實幾年前在臺中市農試所的時候，我就一直推，牠的共同防治，除了農業部門，也要跟交通部門一起來做共同的防治，這樣的話，才能夠把那個密度往下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯。"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個是後續我們也會繼續努力的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。所以現在才講，因為各縣市政府可能也有局處之間的協調，不只是農業局的問題嘛，可能有觀光局、交通局等相關局處，但是中央主管機關農業部怎麼樣可以給各縣市政府一個清楚、明白的指引，讓各縣市政府能夠跨局處去做一個統合，這個部分農業部是不是應該要動作了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我覺得有一部分是農業部的責任，我們應該把這些防範的指引寫清楚，因為跨局處的部分可能會依據不同地方政府局處之間的溝通平臺，我們農業部應該會跟主要的縣市去討論一個共同防治的……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在荔枝椿象比較氾濫的有哪幾個縣市？除了中南部，新北市算不算？"],["陳代理部長駿季：高屏嘉南以外，新北市還有中彰投這邊都有，其實大部分的縣市都有，而且像都會區的話，可能都在步道，步道反而會多。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，本席的選區也有民眾在臉書社團中貼文說，他們去走散步的步道，在樹上發現荔枝椿象，也提醒大家要小心，避免皮膚碰到牠的汁液。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席要比較具體地建議，部長，是不是應該找幾個現在已經有掌握比較嚴重的縣市來討論，並且有一個比較清楚、明白的指引來做防治？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，這個我們可以做得到。"],["洪委員孟楷：多久做到？1個月內？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想1個月之內我們一定會跟……第一個，我會先跟交通部的觀光局那邊去做，因為這個跟交通有關，之後才會召集主要的，如果是都會區的話，就是以交通部觀光局為主，絕對不只是叫民眾小心，一定要有更積極的防護作為，我想這個我們會努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，這就是重點，就是民眾自保，在社團上講說小心，有發現，我們不要去碰觸，但是不是有更積極的作為？包括說外來種最有名的其實是什麼？紅火蟻，有沒有？有些地方紅火蟻一入侵之後，整個地區是不能用的，甚至要隔離，小朋友都不能前往，然後還要投藥。一樣的道理，當然荔枝椿象現在的危害度有沒有到那麼高，要由專業判斷，但本席希望農業部找相關部會以及各縣市，尤其是比較氾濫的這些縣市來做一個討論，該專業的投藥還是專業的驅蟲，還是用生態平衡方式，也有人講說一物剋一物嘛，荔枝椿象可能怕的是其他的蟲，怎麼樣能夠讓……"],["陳代理部長駿季：用生物防治的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，生物防治來達到生態平衡，這些要請農業部訂出指引，1個月內找相關縣市來開會。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一定會去做，也非常謝謝委員的提醒，讓我們有機會跟其他的部會一起合作，不只在農業區，非農業區的部分我們會一併來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，拿出辦法來。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要再讓國人看到，怎麼會到最後我們的辦法是把牠油炸吃掉，我想這就本末倒置了，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不會，這個不可取啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請陳亭妃委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個要看"},{"start":162.819,"end":179.325,"text":"本身的可用食材是可被消費者接受的,這個接受不是口味的接受,還有觀念的接受。觀感的接受,還有這個大家的飲食文化的接受。對,這個非常重要,如果不符合我們的飲食的話,我們絕對不能推。是嗎?"},{"start":180.926,"end":207.628,"text":"議員,所以你講了半天,我們現在就事論事。就是說荔枝村下這個議題就是說在於是推廣這個活動之前沒有找衛福部溝通嘛。所以造成說我們貿然推出來之後大家一邊滑爛,怎麼會?你如果說是一般夜市,它可能會有觸法的問題。但一般的民眾它不會去販賣這個,而且販賣它可能會違反這個食安法嘛。可是我們公部門帶頭作業一定是符合相關法規嘛。"},{"start":208.248,"end":228.457,"text":"那結果沒有符合相關法規這一個部長我其實要問的其實是後面更重要的問題為什麼要去推廣油炸荔枝春夏是不是因為荔枝春夏它就是某種程度上有危害到我們現在的一個環境跟生活我跟委員說明在實際的狀況是它是在一個環境教育的課程"},{"start":229.097,"end":245.079,"text":"那因為環境教育的課程他只是去展示可能在其他的國家是可以用的他只是在那邊去做一個示範並沒有說去做到推廣的這個動作部長但是我們現在在講的是荔枝村上他是近年來新興的入侵外來走"},{"start":245.86,"end":267.985,"text":"然後他也對於中南部來說對於荔枝或是龍眼都造成嚴重的危害甚至本席的選區淡水地區也有民眾講說他現在不是在果樹上發現他是在一般的田間一般的民間走路散步的時候發現無患者的樹枝上面就會有三到五枝的荔枝春夏"},{"start":269.825,"end":271.506,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":299.864,"end":323.583,"text":"除了用農藥除了用其他的這個生態平衡來講有沒有其他可能可以抑制這個外來種害蟲的一個方式那我現在要問的其實比較更直接就是說那對於荔枝春象在各縣市越來越多了那造成我們民眾的一個生活或說有疑慮也有講到荔枝春象他的毒液他的這個汁液會有毒會造成皮膚的潰爛"},{"start":324.784,"end":350.852,"text":"那我們現在有沒有中央明確的規定跟方式?我跟委員報告齁,就是立法院的房子現在最大的盲點就是他並沒有啟動區域的房子,而是個別的房子。那這個區域的房子不只是在農業區喔,農業區要有區域房子,現在有很多休閒的步道有沒有,也會發生到旁邊的樹木會掉到一些那個,所以我一直認為,就是其實我幾年前就開始一直在"},{"start":351.553,"end":366.813,"text":"在台中市在農事所的時候我就一直推他的共同防治除了農業部門也要跟交通部門對一起來做共同的防治這樣的話才能夠把那個密度往下降沒錯這個是我想後續我們也會繼續努力的是"},{"start":367.213,"end":395.961,"text":"所以現在才講啊因為各縣市政府他可能也有這個局處之間的一個協調是不是只是農業局的問題嗎他可能觀光局、交通局等相關的局處那但是對於上位等於中央主管機關我們農業部怎麼樣可以給各縣市政府有一個清楚明白的指引讓各縣市政府能夠跨局處來去做一個統一這個農業部是不是應該要動作我覺得有一部分是農業部的責任我們應該把這些防範的指引要寫清楚"},{"start":396.661,"end":420.501,"text":"然後因為跨部門的跨局處跨局處的部分可能會依據不同的地方政府的局處之間的的一個溝通平台是那我想我們農業部應該會跟主要的縣市去討論一個現在比較氾濫的荔枝村鄉哪幾個縣市除了江南部新北市算不算高平嘉南以外那新北市還有中張頭這邊都有其實"},{"start":422.643,"end":422.783,"text":"答案。"},{"start":444.155,"end":444.175,"text":"案。」"},{"start":459.292,"end":475.882,"text":"一個月之內我們一定會跟第一個我會先跟交通部的觀光局那邊去做因為那個跟交通有關的齁完了以後才會召集主要的如果是都會區的話就是以交通部觀光局為主他絕對不是只是叫民眾"},{"start":477.043,"end":479.166,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12條及第十五條條文"},{"start":492.867,"end":494.268,"text":"事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":514.958,"end":536.441,"text":"反濫的這些縣市來去做一個討論該專業的投藥還是專業的驅蟲還是用生態平衡方式也有人講是說有其他的一物剋一物嘛荔枝村上他們可能怕的是其他的一個蟲那怎麼樣能夠用生物防治的部分生物防治來達到生態平衡這一些要請農業部定出質疑一個月內"},{"start":537.142,"end":537.162,"text":"案 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11:47:45","影片長度":"00:12:08","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":728,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:47:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:35:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時35分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。今天辛苦了！"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天我們主席排的主題是關於WHA，我認為這是一個非常重要的議題，但是在這個之前，也是因為這幾個禮拜國人非常關心這個洩密相關案件，我在上一次次長來的時候，其實也有問過了，我覺得這不是不能討論，它的確是一個嚴肅的問題，我們的確可以討論加密等等之類的問題，這也確實是全民都關心的，但很明顯的，以今天來講，即使是可能想要幫忙護航的委員來臺上，看起來好像也都沒有問到這些關鍵，他可能就是問你知不知道到底有幾家廠商、跟新聞上的是不是一致等等，在此，我想問部長，因為我以前也承辦過外交部一些相關的influence operations活動，那我想問部長知不知道，我們那時候送印的手冊找的是幾家影印廠商？"],["吳部長釗燮：呵！呵！我不知道。"],["沈委員伯洋：你一定不知道嘛！對不對？當你說不知道而僵在那邊的時候，他就剪成一個影片，告訴大家說……"],["吳部長釗燮：我剛才在笑，是說我的腦袋就好像是memory chips，容量是有限制的，所以如果我拚命去吸收那些的話，腦袋到最後是不能用的。"],["沈委員伯洋：是啊！但是今天他就在問，譬如你知不知道我那時候外燴叫了幾樣菜？是不是在規避政府採購法？我覺得這種問法，說真的是不入流啦！更不要講說在問認不認識蘇起啦，為什麼要戴彩帶啦，張天欽講過什麼啦，我覺得這個都無關，但我們嚴肅一點來講，在這一件事情上，今天外交部講的是第一百三十二條，那天我跟次長質詢的時候也有講到第一百三十二條，叫做「國防以外應秘密」，所以「應秘密」這三個字，其實它絕對有一個解釋的空間，到底什麼叫做秘密？那時候我也跟次長提醒，以外交部的角色來講，它一定是形式認定是不是秘密，它不是實質認定，為什麼呢？因為一旦文件上面蓋了一個密件，而外交部發現竟然有人把這個密件洩漏出去了，對它來講，形式上就一定是洩密，如果今天外交部不去告發，那反而會形成問題欸！"],["吳部長釗燮：真的。"],["沈委員伯洋：反而是瀆職嘛！所以如果今天要給外交部施壓說，明明一個蓋有密件的東西，結果竟然被送出去了，然後你還不能去告發，這絕對會有瀆職的問題。其實在機密這件事情上，最主要有好幾個法律相關，我看到前幾天趙少康提到說要修「三大法」：國家機密保護法、兩岸人民關係條例，還有反滲透法，但是我覺得很奇怪的一件事情是，這三部法律未必跟今天這個案件有關係，如果我們今天要直接說這個東西是不是公務機密，其實是有一個文書管理規則來規範，一旦經過文書管理規則核定之後，它本身就是一個密件，至於它有沒有跟國家機密保護法相關、有沒有競合，那完全是另外一件事，所以我完全不清楚趙少康為什麼要提這三個法，很明顯就是想要用這個事情來做政治操作，如果是這樣，那我很擔心，所以我先幫部長演練一下，因為今天登記的人也多，等一下可能馬上就會有人問說：欸，部長，你知不知道國家機密保護法第五條之一的規定是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：欸！可能我要看一下。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，可能不知道，對不對？喔！你竟然會不知道，你的機密都跟這個核定有關，結果你連法條都不知道，那你做什麼部長呢？待會可能就會有這種情形出現，那我先告訴大家，國家機密法根本就沒有第五條之一。"],["吳部長釗燮：呵！呵！"],["沈委員伯洋：如果今天我們要好好討論這件事情，確實，文書管理規則算是一個行政規則，今天它在核密的過程當中，到底有什麼樣的問題，它跟現行法律有沒有不合之處，這些是我們立法院應該要討論的，也就是說，如果今天認為文書處理規則訂得不好，那是立法委員的責任，怎麼會是一個公務員根據規則弄了一個密件，結果現在要威脅這個公務員站出來！我覺得這完全是不合理的事情，不知道部長同不同意？"],["吳部長釗燮：同意。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天我就花了一點時間，先解決前面大家爭議的問題，接下來我想問有關WHA的事情，而且剛好今天國台辦又有發出一些聲明，目前來講，我們就先跳過布林肯之前針對我們要參加WHA的一些發言等等，其實從2024年5月1號一直到5月10號，有越來越多的人為我們發聲，但是我看2023年外交部的新聞稿提到，中國及其動員的古巴與巴基斯坦代表對聯合國第2758號決議以及WHA第25.1號決議作出扭曲、錯誤的政治性解釋，也就是說，依照2023年外交部的新聞稿，很明顯的，真正讓我們不能夠去參加WHA的對象，可能是中國以及它發動的盟友，這是一年前的事情，這一年，一直到2024這一年當中，目前我們改善這件事情的措施大概有哪些？"],["吳部長釗燮：最主要就是我們外交部門以及國安部門去跟美方進行討論的時候，讓他們知道第2758號決議案其實是跟WHA第25.1號決議案內容一致，並跟他們提到中國不斷利用這個決議案、不斷擴張這個決議案，導致很多國家相信，但在我們的努力之下，美國政府最近這段期間也對外說明了他們的立場，包括這個決議案跟一個中國原則是不一樣的，這個也沒有決定臺灣的主權地位，也沒有影響到臺灣跟其他國家的關係，或者是臺灣的國際參與，有了美國的這個決定，而且透過美國去跟其他理念相近國家說明美國的立場，我想這個是最重要的關鍵，這會讓我們未來在參與的過程當中，門會繼續打開。"],["沈委員伯洋：也就是說，針對我們的盟友相關的發言等等，應該是這一年努力的成果，這個其實在上一次，應該不是上一次，已經是3月20號了，已經是一陣子以前，那個時候我在質詢時，部長也有提到，就是要針對第2758號決議案有多一點作為，因為這是他們現在相關的一個法律戰，我現在觀察到的現象是這個樣子，透過一些國際智庫的一些……不算是研究，算是一個情報，就是中國現在跟其他的國家，可能會簽訂各式各樣的經濟協定等等，未必跟我們的外交有直接關係，但它現在的作法，就是會在簽這些協定的時候，把第2758號塞到裡面去，有時候我們不得而知，因為畢竟有時候契約雙方是保密的，就跟這次的密件一樣，所以我們可能無從得知，然後我們的盟友可能也無從得知，那它可能這一年以來做的特別多，所以可能在各式各樣的投票上會有一個反制的力量出來。以目前來講，第2758號盟友為我們講的越來越多，但我認為反制的力量可能會出來，就像今天早上國台辦的這個記者會說，有一些人反覆在聯大第2758號決議做文章，然後臺灣是中國領土不可分割的一部分。又在講這種話，簡單來講，我認為他們可能也是吹起反攻的號角，因為我們在這一年當中的確拉了盟友對第2758號發聲。針對他們現在塞契約，以及開始吹起號角，有了反制的力量，可能也不是只有外交部，以後部長在國安會可能也會遇到，不知道這件事情之後，有什麼樣的規劃？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們目前就是在處理這次參加世界衛生大會的這個過程，當然跟美方的合作也會更加強，讓美國針對第2758號決議案的態度、立場，能夠讓更多友盟國家接受，而且如果可以的話，他們也會對外發布，那這就是我們一個很強大的力量。至於觀察中國在這個過程當中，會用什麼樣的方式來加強他們的法律戰，我們的外館都會密集來蒐集。過去這段時間，我們看到兩個比較特殊的狀況，就是斷交的時候，他們就用第2758號決議案，另外一個是逼迫我們退出中美洲議會的時候，他們也用第2758號決議案，顯然中國利用第2758號決議案所詮釋的內容是不斷在引申、擴大，所以像剛剛委員提到的那個經濟協議，或者是說跟其他國家的共同雙邊聲明等等，都有這種可能性，就是無限地去擴大，那我們會持續地蒐集資料，針對法律戰的問題，我們會擬出一套規則。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，當我們在面對這個問題的時候，我有跟一些國際學者、智庫討論，也想到一點，因為中國在打法律戰，它大部分還是會搭配輿論的風向，就是它輿論打一打，再丟一個新的法律框架，所以我在想，不管是外交部還是僑委會，因為他們在外部可能第一時間會知道他們在其他的契約什麼時候會塞第2758號這個東西在裡面，但當地的民眾未必會買單，也就是說，他們一般對於這種經濟協定的簽訂可能並不是很關心，如果我們能夠在其他國家告知他們人民的transparency上，就是當有協定出現時，發現竟然有政治力的操作，這個不利於它在世界各國際組織等等，以及跟臺灣雖然不是直接的邦交，但它可能會有一些直接的經濟相關往來，因為有時候一定是地方民眾的力量才有辦法對政治人物做出一些反制，所以就這一點而言還是回到我們之前講的，跟智庫的溝通還有跟民眾的溝通。在智庫的溝通，目前來講大家應該也可以感覺到，最近不管是Hudson、CSIS都要開始針對2758號決議辦各式各樣的會議，在臺灣辦，也在DC辦，所以這部分我覺得是外交部這幾年以來非常重要的努力成果。但是在民眾的部分，如果民眾沒辦法對他們的政治人物產生一定的壓力，他們有時候會無視，雖然有智庫講這個，但反正這個智庫的意見只有特定的人在看，那他們的壓力會顯得比較小，所以希望外交部在未來的下一個4年當中能夠針對該國民眾有更多的宣導，而不是只針對我們的僑胞或者在那邊的臺灣人。"],["吳部長釗燮：當然，這個意見非常好，我們會接受，不只是接受，我們來實行。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。這就是我剛剛講的我們要怎麼瓦解中國的法律戰，我個人認為這是重要的。最後，在這邊謝謝部長過去這幾年的努力，真的花了很多的時間，因為我知道我們曾經有一段時間，尤其是在民主基金會的運作之下，很多國外的線是斷掉的，在這幾年慢慢把它建立起來之後，再靠外交部官方不管是做一些情報的交換，或者是一些情資的交換、外交的協助等等，我認為外交部在這邊扮演非常重要的一個角色，希望我們能有愈來愈多的民主盟友，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請黃秀芳委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.31784375,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.759718750000001,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.35846875,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.83096875,"end":68.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.11721875,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.72846875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.51596875,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.67721875,"end":213.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.98096875000002,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.33096875,"end":261.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.93096875000003,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.53596875,"end":329.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.49409375000005,"end":390.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.78846875000005,"end":478.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.55534375,"end":493.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.60784375000003,"end":501.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.76659375,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.37784375,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.93034375,"end":533.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.4115937500001,"end":540.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.67221875,"end":572.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.51534375,"end":661.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.03721875,"end":681.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.9834687500002,"end":682.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.3715937500001,"end":682.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.6753437500001,"end":686.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.4890937499999,"end":723.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.4240937500001,"end":724.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.6940937500001,"end":724.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.8290937500001,"end":724.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.9640937500001,"end":725.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.18346875,"end":725.89221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.367,"end":1.708,"text":"請部長委員好部長好今天辛苦了今天我覺得因為我們的主席他排的這個是WHA我認為這是一個非常重要的議題"},{"start":20.555,"end":31.826,"text":"但是在這個之前也是因為這幾個禮拜國人非常關心這一個洩密相關的案件那我在上一次次長來的時候其實也有問過其實我覺得這不是不能討論它的確是一個嚴肅的問題就是說我們的確可以去討論說加密等等之類的問題這確實是一個全民都關心的"},{"start":40.755,"end":67.954,"text":"但很明顯的以今天來講即使是這個可能想要幫忙護航的委員來台上看起來好像也都沒有問到這些關鍵你知道OK嗎他可能就是問說你知不知道到底有幾家廠商跟新聞知不知道一致我想問部長因為以前我也有承辦這個外交部相關的一些影響行動的活動對不對那我想問部長知不知道我們那時候送印的手冊找的是有幾家影印的廠商"},{"start":69.114,"end":93.086,"text":"你一定不知道吧 對不對我不知道的時候江在那邊他就剪成一個影片告訴大家講說我常常在笑就是說我的腦袋裡面就好像Memory Chips它的那個容量是有限制所以如果我說我拼命去吸收那些的話腦袋到最後是不能用的是啊但是今天他就在問譬如說你知不知道我那時候外匯照了幾樣菜是不是在規避這個政府採購法所以呢我覺得這種問法其實是說真的不入流"},{"start":93.846,"end":95.448,"text":"蘇琦,為什麼要戴彩帶,張天青講過什麼,我覺得這跟他無關。嚴肅一點我們來講,在這件事情上面,我們今天外交部講的是132條。"},{"start":108.763,"end":126.798,"text":"因為我在跟次長的時候也有講到就是132條它叫做國防以外因秘密所以因秘密這三個字其實它絕對有一個解釋的空間就到底什麼叫做秘密但那時候我也跟次長提醒就是以外交部的角色來講它一定是形式認定是不是秘密它不是實質"},{"start":127.879,"end":150.993,"text":"為什麼呢?因為一旦今天他發現上面蓋了一個密件一旦對外交部今天發現有人竟然把這個密件泄露出去了對他來講形式上就一定是泄密如果今天外交部不去告發的話那反而會形成問題反而是要獨指嘛所以如果說今天要給外交部施壓說今天明明有一個蓋密件的東西結果竟然被送出去了然後你還不能夠去告發這絕對會有獨指的問題"},{"start":154.175,"end":176.007,"text":"但是我們在機密這件事情上面其實最主要有好幾個法律那我有看到在前幾天這個趙少康他有提到說要罕修這個三大法國家機密保護法兩岸人民關係條例還有反滲透法那我在這邊其實我覺得很奇怪的一件事情就是這三部法律未必跟今天這個案件有關係"},{"start":177.108,"end":200.008,"text":"因為我們今天要直接說這個東西是不是機密是一個公務機密它其實是有一個文書管理規則這個文書管理規則一旦核定了之後呢它本身就是一個密件那至於它有沒有跟國家機密保護法相關有沒有競合那完全是另外一件事所以我完全不是很清楚就是說這個趙少康為什麼要提這三個所以很明顯又是想要用這個事情來做一個政治操作"},{"start":200.749,"end":226.366,"text":"那我擔心啦,所以我先幫這個部長演練一下,因為今天登記的人也多啦等一下可能就馬上會有人問說,部長你知不知道國家機密保護法第五條之一規定的是什麼?可能我要看一下對,可能不知道對不對?那既然你會不知道這件事情,你的機密都跟這個核定有關,你連法條都不知道那你這個做什麼部長?待會可能就會有這種情形出現啦那我先告訴大家國家機密保護法根本就沒有第五條之一啦"},{"start":227.807,"end":250.635,"text":"但是我覺得就是說我們今天要好好討論這件事情的時候呢確實文書管理規則這一個算是一個行政規則他今天在和密的這個過程當中他到底有什麼樣的問題他跟現行的法律有沒有什麼不合之處這是我們立法院應該要討論的也就是說呢如果今天認為文書處理規則定的不好那是立法委員的責任"},{"start":251.255,"end":276.844,"text":"那怎麼會是一個公務員根據規則然後弄了一個密件結果現在說要威脅這個公務員站出來我覺得這個是完全不合理的事情不知道部長同不同意所以就花了一點時間先解決了這個前面大家的爭議的問題但接下來我想問WHA而且剛好今天這個國台辦又有發出了一些聲明那目前來講我前面這個我先跳過因為這個是布林肯之前針對這一個"},{"start":278.801,"end":279.602,"text":"但是呢在2023年呢我看這個"},{"start":294.001,"end":320.977,"text":"我們的外交部的這個新聞稿在這邊就是說中國呢這個極其動員古巴與巴基斯坦代表他對聯合國的2758號以及WHA第25號的決議作出扭曲錯誤的一個政治性解釋所以也就是說呢在2023年依照外交部的這個新聞稿很明顯真正讓我們不能夠去這個WHA的對象可能是中國以及他發動的盟友"},{"start":321.577,"end":329.822,"text":"這是一年前的事情這一年一直到2024這一年當中我們目前來講改善這件事情的措施大概有哪些呢?"},{"start":331.184,"end":353.266,"text":"最主要的就是說我們外交部門以及國安部門去跟美方進行討論的時候讓他們知道說2758號決議案其實這個就是那個WHA第25.1號決議案是內容是一致的跟他們提到說中國是不斷的利用這個決議案不斷的去擴張這個決議案導致很多的國家相信"},{"start":353.746,"end":354.006,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":373.131,"end":373.171,"text":"主席"},{"start":391.399,"end":417.375,"text":"也就是說我們針對我們的盟友相關的發言等等之類的應該是這一年努力的成果那這個呢其實在上一次這一個應該不是上一次了已經是3月20號了已經一陣子以前這個時候我在質詢的時候呢到時候部長也有提到就是要針對2758號決議案要多一點作為因為這是他現在相關的一個法律戰那我現在觀察到的一個現象是這個樣子這個是透過一些國際的智庫的一些不算是研究但算是一個情報"},{"start":418.135,"end":446.909,"text":"就是說現在中國在跟其他的國家可能會簽訂各式各樣的一些經濟的協定等等之類的他未必跟我們的外交有直接的關係但他現在的做法是他會在簽這些協定的時候把2758號塞到裡面去那他塞到裡面去之後我們有時候不得而知因為畢竟有時候契約他雙方是保密的就跟這次的密件一樣所以我們可能無從得知然後呢我們的盟友可能也無從得知那他可能這一年以來做的特別多就可能會在各式各樣的投票現在會有一個"},{"start":447.529,"end":475.448,"text":"反制的力量出來因為目前來講盟友為我們2758號講的越來越多了但我認為反制的力量可以出來是因而可能會出來也代表今天在早上今天國台辦的這個記者會我們剛剛才把他這一個放上去就是說他說有一些人反負在這今天早上的事情說2758號決意在做文章然後這個台灣這個是中國領土不可分割的一部分又在講這種話所以呢簡單來講我認為他們可能也是吹醒這個反攻的號角啦那"},{"start":476.228,"end":477.489,"text":"我們目前正在處理這次參加世界衛生大會的這個過程那當然也是"},{"start":503.8,"end":507.66,"text":"跟美方的那個合作會更加強對不起"},{"start":509.133,"end":532.935,"text":"讓美國針對2758號決議案的這個態度立場能夠讓更多的這些有盟國家來接受而且如果說可以的話他們也會對外來發布那這個就是我們一個很強大的這個力量但是至於觀察中國在這個過程當中會用什麼樣的這個方式來加強他們的這個法律戰我們的外館都會密集的來收集那在過去這段時間"},{"start":534.608,"end":549.678,"text":"我們看到兩個比較特殊的這個狀況就是說斷交的時候他們就用2758號決議案來那另外一個是逼迫我們退出中美洲議會的時候他們也用2758號決議案所以顯然他們利用中國所詮釋的這個2758號決議案的這個詮釋內容是不斷的在引申擴大"},{"start":554.341,"end":571.411,"text":"那所以像剛剛委員所說的那個經濟的協議或者是說其他國家的跟其他國家的這種共同雙邊聲明等等的可能有這種可能性就是無限的去擴大那我們會持續的來收集資料針對法律戰的問題那我們會擬出一套規則"},{"start":572.672,"end":587.017,"text":"對我這邊的就是當時我們在面對這個問題的時候在跟一些國際的學者跟智庫在討論的時候又想到一點就是說因為中國在打這個法律戰他大部分還是會搭配輿論的方向就是說他輿論打一打他再丟一個新的一個法律框架"},{"start":587.637,"end":602.825,"text":"所以我在想說不管是外交部還是僑委會因為他們在外部可能是第一時間會知道說他們在其他的契約什麼時候去塞了2758號這個東西在裡面但當地的民眾未必會買單也就是說呢他們當然一般對於這種經濟協定的簽訂可能並不是很關心"},{"start":605.826,"end":632.968,"text":"如果說我們能夠在其他的國家去告知他們的人民他這個transparency就是說如果今天有這個協定出現的時候結果竟然有政治力的操作這個不利於他在各個世界國際組織等等之類然後以及跟台灣的一些雖然不是直接的邦交但他可能會有一些直接不管是經濟相關往來的這個時候或許因為有時候一定是地方上民眾的力量才有辦法對他的政治人物做出一些反制"},{"start":633.989,"end":661.539,"text":"所以如果說就這一點而言就是還是回到我們之前講的跟智庫的溝通然後還有跟民眾的溝通智庫的溝通目前來講大家應該可以也是感覺到啦最近不管是哈森然後CSIS啦都開始要針對2758號去辦各式各樣的會議在台灣辦然後也在DC辦嘛所以這個部分我覺得是外交部這幾年以來我覺得非常重要努力的一個成果但是民眾的部分因為民眾的部分如果沒有辦法對他們的政治人物有一定的壓力的話"},{"start":662.079,"end":662.099,"text":"當然"},{"start":683.119,"end":705.256,"text":"這個意見非常好,我們會來接受,不只是接受,我們來執行。謝謝,那這個就是我剛剛講的,就是我們要怎麼去瓦解中國的一個法律戰,我個人是認為重要的。那最後還是要在這邊謝謝部長,就是說過去這幾年的努力,真的是花了很多的時間,因為我知道我們曾經有一段時間,尤其是在民主基金會的運作之下,很多國外的線是斷掉的。"},{"start":706.357,"end":706.377,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c06a4fe2172b209db0881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e451d5be5ffed8b69195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:33:35 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11:41:16","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":461,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:41:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:33:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時33分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。今天來談審查農村再生條例，對於農業再生在我們臺灣各鄉鎮或者各個農村推動的情況，不知道部長感覺推動的成效好不好。本席不是問你，你還不要回答。本席要反映，因為新竹縣也有非常多的鄉鎮是屬於……新竹縣過去大部分也是農業大縣，我們很多的鄉鎮跟我反映，現在農村再生在執行的時候，中央農村再生到底只是想要消耗預算，還是真的要輔導農村再生？你就回答這個問題，選擇題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一定是輔導農村再生為目標，不是消化預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，為目標。第一個，現在很多農村有人口老化問題，你怎麼去解決？現在很多想要農村再生，但是它就是人口老化，沒有年輕人或投入者，這個比較有困難，這是第一個，你等一下整體回復，如果沒有時間、時間不夠，請提供書面。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：第二個，行政核銷問題太過嚴格。本席舉例，農村再生的過程譬如我們有共餐或者要用餐具，現在跟餐廳借餐具、租餐具沒有辦法核銷，因為你們規定開發票的對方一定要是租賃業者，餐廳又不是租賃業者，可是我真的跟餐廳租借，像這個的核銷困難重重。農村再生的人力已經很不足了，有人願意做，你又在各方面刁難，當然，我們也認為要具體核銷，不希望錢亂花。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這一塊我要反映出來。但除了這個，還有很多，包括師資，他找師資的時候，有時候核銷也有各種困難，你們要去瞭解。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有很多核銷的問題及困難，包含驗收、後面還有很多維護年限的問題。","第三個就是傳承與推動，農村再生需要長時間的推動，以經驗的傳承來講，我們發現很多有經驗的人不一定願意傳承，真心想推動的又問不到。再來，很多是跟在地的業者合作，所以變成有業者願意做才來做，但是不一定是真的符合我們農村的需求。所以就像本席一開始問的，農村再生是為了農村再生，不是為了消耗預算，也不是為了迎合業者。","第四個，輔導員的問題，很明顯地，很多鄉親跟我說輔導員都不明確指導，鄉親去請教，輔導員竟然說：「你去問其他人」，請問要輔導員做什麼？","以上這些問題都是我們要推動農村再生很困難的地方，所以本席建議農村再生計畫一定要設立單一窗口來輔導，而且能夠簡化流程。再來，要協助解決人力的問題、提高社區的提案意願，這個部分部長可以承諾嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：剛才委員提出幾個問題，我非常簡單地回答。第一個，老化的問題，我們希望引領青年回來，青年回來的背後一定要有一個支持系統，沒有支持系統，他只是在農村工作，我覺得他很容易再流失。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以那個支持系統在我們下一次施政報告的時候，我們會提出來。第二個部分就是有關於行政效率、核銷的部分，我們也會重新檢討，有一部分是合理的，我們會去加快改善、放寬，但是有一些可能產生弊端的、風險高的，我們不會放，風險低我們會放。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：第三個，傳承的部分，有一些可能不符合相關的規定，但是相互觀摩是非常重要的，像我們很多金牌農村做得非常好，所以用相互的觀摩去彌補這個區塊，未來我們會有更好的系統。第四個是輔導員的部分，其實農村再生裡面我們做了非常多的人力培育，其中有一個區塊就在輔導員，所以輔導員的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那為什麼輔導員都不輔導？這個要加強！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個部分我們一定要去加強，做不好真的要打屁股，因為輔導員是最重要的核心。您最後一個問題是單一的窗口，我們現在基本上有一些單一的窗口，但是可能單一的窗口還是比較細，也許我們會看看，因為有些地方……"],["徐委員欣瑩：看怎麼來解決這些問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為有些是縣市政府的部分，有些是中央的部分，我們看怎麼樣去做整併或做連結，讓行政效率會變快一點。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席很開心部長有瞭解，而且也知道有一些執行上的困難。","最後，針對今天審的第七條，一千五百億的基金即將用完，有很多委員提出撥補的修法，農業部的意見到底是什麼？你們到底贊不贊成委員提案撥補基金的修法方向？你贊不贊成？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想基金很明確地在116年會見底，我們現在有一個機制可以再去請增相關的經費，但是因為委員所提的版本違反了財政紀律法的規定，所以以農業部的立場，我們沒辦法支持直接在上面寫明多少金額，這樣的話會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到國發會是沒意見，但主計總處反對，所以你們是針對委員版本認為可能不適合，但是你們覺得也是要看怎麼找財源來撥補嘛……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的意見是這樣嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：國發會沒有反對，國發會是支持我們的立場，而不是它完全沒意見……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，它尊重你們嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，除了現行農村再生條例的法條文字及修正提案的文字，未來國土計畫法也即將實施，你到底最後要依據哪一邊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：新修正的這些條文裡面，還有國土計畫如果114年4月落地開始實施以後，會有一個對接，像委員提案裡面提到一些全國性的部分是整體的，縣市的部分會根據國土計畫裡面分區的功能去做相關對應的處理，後續我們有一個對應的配套作為。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你依據哪一個？"],["陳代理部長駿季：一樣，我們還是依據現有的，第十五條第一項的部分本來就會有一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：第十五條原本沒有第一項吧。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，然後現在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在新增……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，現在可以執行，只是委員的版本讓它更文字化，更文字化的話，以後的依據會更明確。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是認同的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們認同修正的條文讓它更明確。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，瞭解，謝謝部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員做詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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«農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案案 案 及第十五條條文修正草案 案 及第十五條條文"},{"start":408.624,"end":431.167,"text":"新修正的這些條裡面還有國土計畫如果一一四年四月落地開始實施以後他會有一個對接像委員裡面提到的一些全國性的部分是整體的然後縣市的部分他會根據國土計畫裡面的分區的功能去做相關的對應的處理我們有一個對應的配套的一個作為在後續所以那你依據哪一個"},{"start":432.793,"end":458.167,"text":"同樣的,我們還是依據現有的,都要這個15條第一項的部分,也本來就會有…15條原本沒有第一項吧?對,然後現在…那現在新增?沒有,現在可以執行,只是委員的版本是讓它更文字化,那更文字化的話以後的依據會更明確。所以你們是認同的?對,我們認同它的那個修正的這些條文,讓它更明確。好,好,了解。好,謝謝部長。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0221a569cc74cf48aad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45c7787558139d69cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:24:50 - 11:35:18","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":628,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:35:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:24:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時24分）主席好，有請外交部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。首先針對前天大陸國台辦發言人陳斌華在記者會上說，臺灣方面沒有辦法參加WHA，完全是民進黨當局造成的，在此本席也要幫外交部說句公道話。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：國台辦這樣發言其實真的是蠻荒謬的，而且蠻可笑的，完全打擊我們辛苦的外交人員還有醫藥界的共同努力。世界衛生組織的序言裡面就有講了，享受最高而能獲致之健康標準是人人基本的權利之一，不因種族、宗教、政治、信仰、經濟還有社會的情境各異而分軒輊，大陸用這一種政治綁架臺灣人民的健康，綁架臺灣人民參與國際社會共享醫療資源成果的作法，其實是赤裸裸地侵犯了世界衛生組織基本原則，所以站在國家整體利益和全民的健康上面，我們確實是不應該分黨派，應該要團結一致，讓世界看到臺灣。部長，想請問一下，你對中共這一種把政治放在人民健康之上的行為有什麼看法？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，對於中國的這種作法，我們是沒有辦法接受的，而且他們真的是像委員所說的，就是赤裸裸地用政治來介入原本是屬於全民健康的議題，而且中國不但是介入，甚至在世界各國都說一些似是而非的話，甚至是講一些很明顯錯誤的話，譬如說，它在國際社會上面說他們能夠代表臺灣人民，實際上是他們沒有辦法代表臺灣人民；他們說，我們的這些技術性會議是經過中國政府的同意，實際上不是經過他們的同意，而是我們自己去申請的；他們也說，中國政府會好好地照顧我們臺灣人的健康福祉，我們臺灣人民的反應就是，你不要欺負我們就萬幸了。所以中國政府常常會在國際社會上面說這些錯誤的話，每一次只要他們有任何錯誤的話，外交部都會予以反駁，剛剛非常謝謝委員的這一番正義之詞。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝部長的努力。我再來請教部長，由於美國在COVID-19流行期間發現WHO嚴重失能，甚至因為政治立場的關係，導致公衛機制沒有辦法很好的運作，所以拜登政府也花了3年時間推出了美國全球健康安全的戰略，這個戰略主要是以美國聯邦政府為主體，希望達到三個目標：第一個是藉由雙方合作強化全球衛生能力，第二個是激勵政治承諾與資金，第三個是整合所有衛生安全行動。然後從2015年開始，臺灣跟AIT就已經共同推動了一個GCTF的計畫，全球有128個參與國家，包含了公共衛生、人道救援、災害防救這些議題，基本上就是讓美國拉著臺灣實質地參與包含了公共衛生在內的全球事務。","去年（2023年）臺、美、日、澳四方在WHA期間，在日內瓦透過GCTF的平臺舉辦了國際的研討會，強化國際醫衛的合作，然後臺、美、日、澳四方首度用抗疫的經驗以及公衛的專業深入交流，大家也認為這樣來強化全球夥伴的關係，體現了公衛安全的重要性。我想請教部長，我們是不是能夠透過GCTF去響應拜登政府推出的美國全球健康安全戰略？還是外交部目前有沒有什麼規劃，讓我們一起參與到美國這樣的全球健康安全戰略？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於GCTF，是我們在2015年跟美國成立的一個協定，它叫做Global Cooperation and Training Framework，就是利用我們臺灣的強項，不管是在公衛、在婦女賦權、在環保，或者是在那種涉及cybersecurity的各個不同的層面，能夠讓我們臺灣的強項跟美國合作，來貢獻這個區域，到目前為止表現都非常好，也受到全世界各國的讚譽。委員剛剛提到借用GCTF來強化我們跟美國的合作，來推動全球衛生方面的這種合作，我們會據以推動，其實公衛的這一題會持續不斷地在GCTF的這個workshop上面來呈現。","臺灣的公衛能力是受到全球的讚譽，甚至在COVID的時候，很多國家都淪陷了，包括美國自己，可是他們看到臺灣的best practices，認為臺灣是一個模範，所以他們希望利用臺灣本身的能力來造福更多的國家，所以這個是我們的強項，也是我們能夠跟美國、日本、澳洲、加拿大等國進行合作的一個項目，我們會持續地來推動。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長。我再問一個問題，部長，這幾天立陶宛這個東歐小國的總統選舉突然受到臺灣民眾的關注，當然不外乎就是它的總統瑙塞達希望將臺灣代表處更名為臺北代表處這件事情，然後媒體報導，因為前幾天也看到部長在廣播節目上面談到，立陶宛選舉的時候，有提到在野黨勝選的機會比較大，但總統選舉前，其實瑙塞達的民調都是大幅領先其他候選人，前一天的第一輪投票結果也確實是如此。想請教部長，是外交部掌握的情資有錯誤，還是是你有意想要安撫臺灣民眾的心情？部長可以簡短地說明一下嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：好，很簡短地說明。第一個，立陶宛是有280萬人口的國家，雖然它的人口不是很多，但是以道德勇氣來說，這是一個超級強國，我去那邊訪問的時候，我就當面跟他們的國會議員等等說，他們是一個moral superpower，因為他們所展現的這種對抗強權、對抗蘇聯、對抗中國的精神是很多國家都比不上的，這是第一點。第二點，我們跟他們討論到最後有一個協議，就是我們臺灣在那邊的代表處是叫做The Taiwanese Representative Office，就是我們臺灣翻作的臺灣代表處，這個是經過雙方同意的，這個問題也是他們行政部門的權力範圍，不是總統這邊的，因為他們是內閣制，這是他們內閣權力的範圍，所以將來如果要改的話，應該是他們的內閣來跟我們做討論，畢竟這已經有一個協議了。我的看法是，這個更改的可能性應該是很小，即使接下來在8月的時候他們會有一場新的國會議員選舉，可能會有一個新的政府，可是對於我們跟未來可能組閣的新政府之間的討論狀況來看，會改名的機率很低，我們跟立陶宛之間已經有各式各樣的合作項目，這些項目對立陶宛來說也是非常重要的，所以我對我們接下來跟立陶宛的關係是非常的有信心。"],["林委員憶君：好，其實我覺得立陶宛在歐洲國家中是一個很難得與臺灣友好，甚至在被中國打壓之後、外交發生困境的時候，還非常相挺臺灣的國家。關於剛才部長所講的，但是據我瞭解，立陶宛是半總統制，總統是負責國家的外交、國防事務，所以臺灣辦事處是否可以更名這件事情其實是總統的職責、職權，他可以說可不可以更名的。","過去幾年，因為外部環境改善，加上外交部全體同仁都很努力在維護臺灣跟立陶宛的關係，所以其實也有很大的改變。我想請教部長，如果今天瑙塞達最後勝選的機率非常大，因為剛才我也講了，這個應該是總統的職權，如果他順利當選總統之後真的要求把臺灣辦事處更名為臺北辦事處，如果他還有這種堅持的話，會不會影響到我們兩國的情誼，還有外交關係的生變呢？還有你覺得他這樣更名的機率會有多大？畢竟這是他的職權。"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告，我剛剛有一個小小的資訊要跟委員更正，他們的國會大選是10月，我們也跟各個不同的政黨，包括現在的在野黨，都有很深入地溝通，現在的執政黨當然更不用說。而現在的在野黨對於強化跟臺灣的關係、持續來推動各式各樣的合作，他們也都抱持很高度的興趣，所以接下來我們跟立陶宛之間的關係應該能夠維繫，而且持續地加強。至於立陶宛總統那些看起來比較像是選舉語言的東西，我們當然是會加以關注，但是畢竟權力是在內閣手上，內閣對這個事情是有發言權和最後的決定權，雖然目前看不出來他們的內閣在這件事情上面會做何討論，但是無論如何我們還是會持續地關注。以個人來說，我對這個是相當有信心的。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.25846875,"end":4.334093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.63784375,"end":5.6334687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.61971875,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.83471875,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.914718750000002,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.55346875,"end":32.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.58284375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.62346875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.48409375,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.19846875,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.64034375,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.84596875000003,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.19596875000002,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.82284375,"end":233.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.08721875,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.92346875,"end":332.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.32909375,"end":334.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.26971875000004,"end":339.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.43784375,"end":381.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.13596875,"end":484.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.25471875000005,"end":521.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.9409687500001,"end":530.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3572187500001,"end":545.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.4265937499999,"end":559.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.1965937500001,"end":566.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.84534375,"end":567.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.2165937500001,"end":623.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.5790937500001,"end":624.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.67596875,"end":626.1609687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.307,"end":3.608,"text":"主席好 有請外交部長請部長委員好"},{"start":14.989,"end":31.276,"text":"首先針對前天大陸國台辦發言的陳彬華在記者會上說台灣方面沒有辦法參加WHA完全是民進黨當局造成的是在此本席也要幫外交部說句公道話了"},{"start":33.218,"end":49.469,"text":"國台辦這樣發言其實真的是蠻荒謬的而且蠻可笑的完全打擊我們全部的辛苦的外交人員還有醫藥界的共同的努力世界衛生組織裡面的序言裡面就有講了享受最高額能獲至的健康標準"},{"start":50.35,"end":71.501,"text":"是人人基本的權利之一不因種族、宗教、政治、信仰、經濟還有社會的情境各異而分宣誓大陸用這種政治綁架臺灣人民的健康綁架臺灣人民參與國際社會共享醫療資源的成果的做法其實是赤裸裸的侵犯了世界衛生組織基本原則"},{"start":72.521,"end":76.145,"text":"所以站在其實國家的整體利益和全民的健康上面我們確實是不應該分黨派應該要團結一次讓世界看到台灣部長想請問一下你對中共這一種把政治放在人民健康之上的行為有什麼看法"},{"start":89.59,"end":89.71,"text":"主席"},{"start":104.589,"end":126.781,"text":"在世界各國多說一些似是而非的話甚至是講一些很明顯錯誤的話比如說他對國際社會上面說他們能夠代表台灣人民實際上是他們沒有辦法代表台灣人民他們說我們的這些技術性的會議是經過中國政府的同意實際上不是經過他們的同意而是我們自己去申請的"},{"start":127.421,"end":149.407,"text":"那他們也說中國政府會好好的照顧我們台灣人的健康福祉那我們台灣的人民的反應就是說你爛不要把他欺負你那你就慢行啊那所以中國政府常常會在國際社會上面說這些錯誤的這個話那每一次只要他們有任何這個錯誤的話我們外交部這邊都會予以反駁那剛剛非常謝謝委員的這一番正義支持"},{"start":150.697,"end":156.942,"text":"謝謝部長努力那我再來請教部長由於美國在COVID-19的流行期間發現WHO嚴重的失能甚至因為政治的立場的關係導致公衛機制沒有辦法很好的運作所以拜登政府也花了三年的時間推出了美國全球健康安全的戰略然後這個戰略裡面主要是以美國聯邦政府為主題希望達到三個目標"},{"start":177.557,"end":190.886,"text":"第一是藉由雙方合作強化全球的衛生能力第二是激勵政治的承諾與基金第三是整合所有的衛生安全行動然後從2015年開始台灣跟NIT就已經共同推動了一個GCTF的計畫全球有128個參與的國家包含了公共的衛生還有人道救援還有災害的防救這些議題基本上就是讓美國拉著台灣實質的參與"},{"start":207.737,"end":207.757,"text":"．吳釗燮報告"},{"start":225.335,"end":231.618,"text":"臺美日澳四方首都都是用抗疫的經驗還有公衛的專業深入交流大家也認為這樣的全球來這樣強化全球夥伴的關係是促成公衛安全的重要性那我想請教部長一下我們是不是能夠透過這個GCTF"},{"start":244.785,"end":250.107,"text":"GCTF是我們在2015年跟美國成立的一個協定它叫做Global Cooperation and Training Framework就是利用我們台灣的強項不管是在公衛、在婦女賦權、在環保或者是說"},{"start":270.933,"end":271.353,"text":"﹚林憶君﹚"},{"start":287.111,"end":312.773,"text":"那委員剛剛提到的就是說藉用GCTF來強化我們跟美國的合作來推動全球的這個衛生方面的這種合作的話那我想我們會具以來推動其實那個公衛的這一題會持續不斷的在GCTF的這個workshop上面來呈現那我們台灣的這個公衛的能力是受到全球的讚譽甚至是在COVID的時候很多的國家都淪陷了"},{"start":313.413,"end":313.433,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":335.565,"end":339.85,"text":"我再問一個問題部長這幾天立陶宛東歐小國的總統選舉突然受到臺灣民眾的關注當然不外乎就是他的總統老塞達希望臺灣的代表處更名為臺北的代表處這件事情然後媒體報導因為前幾天也看到部長在廣播節目上面談到"},{"start":356.109,"end":379.545,"text":"立陶宛的選舉的時候有提到在野黨勝選的機會比較大但總統選舉前其實老賽亞的民調都是大幅領先其他候選人那前一天的第一輪的投票結果也是確實是如此的那想請教部長一下就是說是外交部掌握的情質是有錯誤呢還是是你有意想要安撫台灣民眾的心情然後可以部長簡短的說明一下嗎"},{"start":381.326,"end":407.678,"text":"很間斷的說明第一個就是那個立陶宛是280萬人口的國家他雖然說他的人口不是很多但是以道德的勇氣來說這是一個超級強國那我去那邊訪問的時候我就當面跟他們的這種國會議員等等的說他們是一個moral superpower因為他們所展現的這種對抗強權對抗蘇聯對抗中國的這種精神是很多的國家都比不上的"},{"start":408.378,"end":434.086,"text":"這是第一點那第二點就是說我們跟他們討論到最後有一個協議就是說我們台灣在那邊的代表處是叫做The Taiwanese Representativeresentative Office就是我們台灣這邊發作的台灣代表處那這個是經過雙方同意的那這個問題也是行政部門之間也就是他們的那個這種行政部門不是總統這邊的"},{"start":435.066,"end":452.58,"text":"是行政部門因為他們是內閣制所以他們的內閣的權利的範圍所以將來如果說要改的話是應該是他們的內閣來跟我們來做討論畢竟這已經有一個協議了那我的看法是這個更改的可能性應該是很小"},{"start":453.38,"end":467.692,"text":"即使接下來在8月的時候他們會有一場新的那個國會議員的選舉可能會有一個新的政府那可是對於我們跟那個未來可能這種阻隔的這個新政府之間的這種討論的這個狀況來看的話會改名的這個機率很低"},{"start":472.517,"end":484.337,"text":"我們跟立陶宛之間已經有各式各樣的這種合作的這些項目那這些項目對立陶宛來說也是非常重要的那所以我對我們接下來跟立陶宛的這個關係是非常的有信心"},{"start":485.765,"end":501.068,"text":"因為其實立陶宛是歐洲國家中其實我是覺得他是一個很難得與台灣友好而且甚至在被中國打壓之後外交發生困境的時候是非常相挺台灣的國家但是剛才部長所講的但是據我了解那個立陶宛是半總統制的總統是負責國家的外交國防事務所以台灣辦事處是否可以更名這件事情其實是總統的職者職權他可以"},{"start":513.311,"end":513.351,"text":"﹚林憶君﹚"},{"start":531.394,"end":539.118,"text":"然後賽達最後的勝選的機率非常的大因為剛才我也講了這個應該是總統的職權所以他順利當選總統之後要求台灣辦事處真的把他更名為台北辦事處那這樣的話那我們如果他還有這種堅持的話那會不會影響到我們兩國的情誼還有外交關係的申辯呢還有他這樣你覺得說他更名的這樣的機率會有多大呢因為畢竟是他的職權"},{"start":565.461,"end":578.165,"text":"國會大選是10月我們也跟各個不同的政黨包括現在的在野黨都有很深入的這些溝通包括現在的在野黨現在的執政黨當然更不用說現在的在野黨"},{"start":579.025,"end":591.01,"text":"他們對於強化跟臺灣的關係持續來推動各式各樣的這些合作那他們也都抱持很高度的興趣所以接下來我們跟那個立陶宛之間的關係應該能夠維繫而且持續的加強"},{"start":594.831,"end":623.218,"text":"至於那個立陶宛總統的這些看起來比較像是選舉語言的這些東西我們當然是會加以關注但是畢竟權力是在內閣的手上所以內閣對這個事情是有發言權和最後的這個決定權那目前看不出來說他們的內閣在這件事情上面會做任何的這個討論但是無論如何我們還是會持續的關注那以個人來說我對這個是相當有信心的"},{"start":623.638,"end":623.979,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0da52655d8ed31275881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e450167b928e53ad9815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:19:24 - 11:30:05","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":641,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:30:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:19:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時19分）謝謝主席，有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：主要是針對委員的提案，提案內容我看了，主要集中在第七條的部分，就是說這個基金的編列金額是多少，我看那個提案很奇怪，上面寫的是「應設置農村再生基金」，農村再生基金不是已經設置了嗎？110年就宣布已經設置了，對不對？如果真的要推動的話，應該是改成「應增加」對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：金額不管是3,600億分十年編列，或者是4,500億分二十年編列，按照財政紀律法相關規定，法律案要增加支出，必須具體指明彌補的財源在哪裡。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是你的提案對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，這是立法委員的提案。"],["邱委員志偉：這是立法院的提案。按照規定，立法機關制定或修正法規時，不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那這個部分會不會窒礙難行？如果通過第七條，不管是誰的版本，如果真的在立法院通過，會不會窒礙難行？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想財政紀律法本身已經規定了，如果這樣訂是違法的嘛！所以通過了以後，等於我們行政單位沒辦法做。"],["邱委員志偉：沒辦法執行嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為整個預算的編列是由農業部向行政院申請核定以後處理。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，就違反財政紀律法嘛！你不能訂特別的額度，也不能訂特別的比率嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以第七條是審假的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以農業部的立場，我們沒辦法支持這樣子直接明定……"],["邱委員志偉：你可以用折衷的方案，比方說你用中長期計畫，過去的1,500億大概什麼時候會用完？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概116年。"],["邱委員志偉：那是一期、二期、三期、四期，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，第四期。"],["邱委員志偉：第四期用完大概就沒有錢了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概還有5.5億。"],["邱委員志偉：還有5.5億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那有沒有第五期？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，以農業部的立場，我們還會繼續推，雖然基金……"],["邱委員志偉：如果要繼續推，你就不能用現在這個方式，不能用第七條的方式嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：因為你要先找到財源嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：現在沒有辦法用原來的方式，過去2010年我們制定這個法令有那時候的背景，所以你可以用中長期計畫向行政院爭取經費，或者用公務預算來支應，而不是用基金嘛，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，如果有第五期，我們報院如果同意的話……"],["邱委員志偉：這樣是比較好的方式，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：彈性比較大。"],["邱委員志偉：最起碼你用公務預算，你去跟行政院爭取你們還有第五期，按照過去一到四期，視年度計畫第五期大概還要三、四百億，你要跟行政院爭取，甚至第六期也可以對不對？是不是這樣的意思？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，行政院同意的話還是用基金，只是用公務預算撥補基金啦！"],["邱委員志偉：所以有一個結論，第七條不管是按誰的版本通過，這是違反財政紀律法對嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你們沒有辦法執行嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，沒辦法。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這樣很清楚。","另外有提案是說調整農村再生整體計畫的規劃體系，然後增加農業活化，調適轉型措施之規劃、執行、場域建置等等，這兩項目標你們能不能做到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：其實這個我們已經在做了，委員的版本是更明確的把全國性的農村整體計畫到縣市、到鄉鎮串在一起的話，其實是好事……"],["邱委員志偉：這是好的，對整體農村再生是好的，增加更多的元素，增加更多的方式，所以這個部分你也樂觀其成？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你要趕快落實，今天這個提案如果通過之後，我希望你能夠趕快啟動相關作業。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，一定會的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外我問一下，你們預計第五期大概就沒有錢了，第五期是從117年到120年，到時當然你就沒有預算了，第五期一定還要繼續再做，對不對？但是你不能再用基金，因為基金已經用完了，如果繼續用中長期計畫，你預估大概要編列多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以過去三到五年我們對農村的支持，大概一年要100億上下，以這樣的額度來計算，四年大概是400億的額度。"],["邱委員志偉：就是跟過去有農再基金的時候，第一期到第四期的基金規模是一樣的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，第三期也是四百多億，四年期四百多億。第一期比較少，因為第一期剛開始，以人力培育為主，大概是287億。"],["邱委員志偉：你如果有用公務預算或者中長期計畫來確保財源無虞，當然我樂觀其成，如果送到立法院來審議的話，我就全力支持。","另外，關於農再基金各期的六項指標，你要訂定一個明確的目標值，這些目標值包括有六項，你也知道嘛，我就不詳述了。有些是成績一年不如一年，以創造就業機會來講，第三期的時候才只有第二期的一半不到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：那是因為疫情的關係。"],["邱委員志偉：你要制定一個標準，針對就業機會，你的標準是多少？針對吸引青年留農返農這個部分，你們的目標值是多少？針對推動農再計畫，目標值又是多少？你要很明確，我才能針對你們的目標值去做管考，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，我跟委員說明，這個指標其實只是第一層的，我們更希望像針對創造就業機會，後面帶出來的經濟效益是什麼，其實也要更具體的描述，我有請我們的同仁針對成效的部分，應該更具體說明。"],["邱委員志偉：對，這部分希望你們能夠改善。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外我想請教漁業署張署長，有關於綠色和平針對臺灣遠洋漁業的部分，它的一些影片或者它的一些說法，對臺灣的遠洋漁業是非常不公平的，我們有很多漁會也表達抗議，對不對？我們已經請他們下架，請問他們有下架嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，到目前為止還沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：還沒有下架？你們要有積極的動作，臺灣確實是兩度被美國列入強迫勞動清單，但是我們已經做了很大的改善，既然有改善就不能被恣意的抹黑，針對這個部分，根本就不是臺灣的漁船嘛！很多影片的內容都是中國無良漁船所作的肆意連結。現在你既然沒有辦法讓它下架，那有沒有可能協助相關的漁會，甚至用法律的手段呢？"],["張署長致盛：這個我們已經在研議中，因為這個確實對我們整個遠洋漁業的形象造成很大的影響。"],["邱委員志偉：當然啦！所以你要積極作為，你要協助漁會用法律訴訟方式，對綠色和平表示抗議，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果勝訴，那你是不是應該匯集相關單位，比方環境部或者衛福部，如果綠色和平這樣子打壓、抹黑臺灣的遠洋漁業，其實綠色和平在臺灣也有組織，如果它日後的組織募款是對臺灣遠洋漁業不利的話，那是不是也要有進一步的管制作為呢？"],["張署長致盛：是，NGO組織其實有它的使命，但是它不能用這樣恣意抹黑的方法去影響一個產業，我覺得我們必須把這個事實向外面陳述，讓外界瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，它已經影響我們產業的發展，行政部門要拿出你們的管制、約束或者警示，說你這樣的作法已經傷害了我們的遠洋漁業，你如果再不改善，那我們就用相關的作法，除了用法律訴訟之外，我會針對你的募款做一些限制或管控，這個你們應該去做啊！"],["張署長致盛：是，相關的方法跟策略我們整體來研議。"],["邱委員志偉：另外是酪農的部分，那天質詢之後，你們有針對酪農進行相關輔導，這部分我希望地方關注幾個重點，針對酪農的部分，畜牧司也有去，關於酪農輔導的中程計畫，這部分的進度跟內容要跟酪農做相關的討論。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我跟委員說明，酪農的計畫行政院已經核定了，但是核定的經費並不是我們原來提的29億，有一部分我們會繼續去爭取……"],["邱委員志偉：是多少？核定幾億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概18億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：29億變成18億，所以能夠做的事情就比較少了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：有一部分是針對前端除料的部分，我們會再去跟行政院申覆。"],["邱委員志偉：再爭取多一點，達到29億的規模。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們一定會往這個目標來做。"],["邱委員志偉：不管是18億或29億，你到底要做哪些事項要讓酪農知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，他們也希望政府可以補助省工的機器，這部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這絕對沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這絕對沒問題，省工機器絕對沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：預算也夠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，省工機器也不用用到29億的本預算，我們還有省工的……"],["邱委員志偉：所以只要他提出申請就可以……"],["陳代理部長駿季：要看機型啦！要看他需要的機型，如果說我們沒有納入，我們就會把它納入。"],["邱委員志偉：那天召開協調會，你們到地方說明，針對地方所提出的建議，我希望你能夠在最短的時間之內把地方的建議予以彙整、執行，再跟酪農做一些說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們休息3分鐘。","休息（11時30分）","繼續開會（11時33分）"],["主席：謝謝。感謝徐委員。","現在請徐欣瑩委員做詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.814093750000001,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.94034375,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.02346875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.20471875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.65971875,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.69284375,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.915968750000005,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.26971875,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.61534375,"end":42.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.31971875,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.17596875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.213468750000004,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.845968750000004,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.92159375,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.768468750000004,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.565343750000004,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.25284375000001,"end":68.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.66159375000001,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.58534375,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.81721875000001,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.84534375,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.46096875,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.53659375000001,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.14346875000001,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.03346875000001,"end":93.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.24409375,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.88534375,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.47534375000001,"end":101.92221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.60596875,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.65659375000001,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.24284375,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.38159375000001,"end":106.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.80284375000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.04284375,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.56034375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.63159375000001,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.42409375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.95409375,"end":141.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.32909375,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.39659375000002,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.82659375,"end":147.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.86034375,"end":147.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.75471875000002,"end":148.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.15471875,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.30659375000002,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.03221875,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.10971875,"end":177.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.29909375,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.72471875000002,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.41659375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.46284375000002,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.01534375,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.53409375,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.09909375,"end":185.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.52096875,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.63909375,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.67284375,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.79096875000002,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.80784375000002,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.87534375,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.76784375000003,"end":200.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.96159375000002,"end":216.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.36596875,"end":205.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.59784375,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.53721875000002,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.79034375,"end":224.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.58659375000002,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.02846875,"end":238.407218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«農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":343.995,"end":357.837,"text":"有些目標值包括這個有六項你也知道嘛我就不詳述了那有些是成績一年不如一年創造機會第三期的時候才是第二期的這個一半不到"},{"start":359.012,"end":359.333,"text":"疫情的關係"},{"start":379.252,"end":394.844,"text":"瞭解,我可以說明,像這個指標其實只是低層的,我們更希望說他創造就業機會,那後面的就業機會帶出來的經濟效益是什麼?其實也要更具體的描述,這個我有請我們同仁針對這個部分,成效的部分應該更具體。"},{"start":396.885,"end":419.253,"text":"這希望你們改善另外我請這個月曙來這個張署長就有關於綠色和平針對台灣遠洋一夜的部分他的一些這個影片或者他的一些這個說法對台灣的遠洋一夜是非常不公平的那我們很多與會也表達抗議嘛對不對那我們有除了請他們下架之外他們下架有下架嗎"},{"start":420.995,"end":436.707,"text":"跟委員報告到目前為止還沒有還沒有下架你們要有積極的動作因為啊這個台灣確實是被美國兩度被列入強迫勞動清單但是我們已經做了很大的改善對不對但是有改善不能被恣意的抹黑啊"},{"start":437.387,"end":459.383,"text":"所以我希望說這個部分根本就不是台灣的漁船嘛然後這些這個很多影片的內容都是這個中國的無良漁船所做的肆意的連結所以你現在既然沒有辦法讓他下架那有沒有可能協助相關的漁會甚至用法律的手段呢"},{"start":460.365,"end":460.385,"text":"案 。"},{"start":485.899,"end":513.482,"text":"他如果綠色和平如果這樣子的打壓抹黑臺灣的羽陽漁業他綠色和平也是在臺灣有組織啊那如果他日後的這個組織募款是對臺灣的羽陽漁業不利的話那是不是也要有進一步的管制做人呢是NGO組織其實他有他的使命但是他不能用這樣肆意抹黑的方法去影響一個產業那我覺得我們必須把這個事實向外面來陳述他已經影響我們產業的發展"},{"start":514.823,"end":539.369,"text":"那你必須要有這個行政部門要拿出你們的管制或者約束或者警示說你這樣的做法已經傷害了我們園養業那你如果再不改善那我們用相關的做法除了用法律訴訟之外我會針對你的這個募款做一些的限制或管控這個你們應該去做啊是相關的方法跟策略我們整體來研議"},{"start":541.087,"end":563.99,"text":"另外落農,落農我還是覺得那天質詢之後你們有去落農做一個相關的相關的輔導這部分我希望說地方關注幾個重點我想這個落農部分這個薰牧師也有去你落農輔導的中層計畫這部分的進度跟內容要跟落農做相關的討論"},{"start":566.204,"end":587.804,"text":"對,我跟委員說明齁,就是若龍的計畫現在已經合訂了齁,但是合訂的經費並不是我們原來提的29億,那有一部分我們會繼續去爭取,大概18億左右,但是有一部分是針對那個整個前段的這些除料的部分,"},{"start":589.005,"end":592.509,"text":"我們會再去跟行政院去勝負。對,我們一定會往這個目標來做。是,了解。這個絕對沒問題。因為預算已過。"},{"start":611.587,"end":617.229,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案》案。adequate to the budget.對,省工機械也不用用到這個29億的本預算。對,省工機械也不用用到這個29億的本預算。"}]}},{"id":"152525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c04707a1e4e884a99f881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45b275fd82f9bbcf195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:05:22 - 11:19:18","影片長度":"00:13:56","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":836,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:19:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:05:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時5分）感謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。再邀請陳部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。第一個議題，公糧收購的案子昨天在院會逕付二讀，交付協商，我希望本席在做協商的時候能夠得到你的支持，就誠如你所說的，我們要全面照顧我們的農民，13年沒有調漲的公糧，沒有理由不漲。物價、所有的生產成本，包括農藥、肥料及搬運工等等，烘乾的部分只有2塊，已經13年了，所以務必要調漲。這是本席給你的建議，認同嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一致性的目標就是稻農的收益確保及提高，然後我們會有一個比較完整的相關配套措施來跟委員討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那就等你，我們協商的時候。我會儘速召開協商，我們趕快……"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：完整的配套，照顧我們的農民。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是達成共識。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望能夠有一個完美的呈現跟全國國民報告，對於農民我們一定要好好照顧，謝謝。","接下來，本席要跟你討論的是我們今天所提案的第七條及第十五條。第十五條，因為農委會現在是農業部，所以相關的文字以及相關的單位我們必須要做調整。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，那是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第十五條你們應該認同吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：那是第二條。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二條，這個應該是認同吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個認同嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第七條是我們今天的重點，本席也提第七條及第十五條。第七條裡面，我們從民國101年開始，分為四個階段到116年，總金額是1,500億，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到116年就沒錢了，對不對？預計。"],["陳代理部長駿季：預計。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你用一個冷靜的思維，為什麼我們要提這個案子？因為我們很緊張，我們也希望做農業部的後盾，為農民開先鋒、做農民的後盾，為什麼這麼說？讓部長冷靜去思考，你的條文，農村再生條例裡頭，你就是多少錢？1,500億。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果你這1,500億，這個大框架沒有拿下來，你每一天就要跟乞丐一樣去拜託行政院，對不對？你這個大框架要不要拿下來？這一個條文應該要把1,500拿掉，首先這是你必須要去思維的。","第二個，我們很緊張，我們怕拜託行政院但不支持。那你要回到公務預算，你要擠你的公務預算，當然你非常誠意，農村再生條例到116年，在本席擔任書記長的時候通過這一個法案，本席要再次請教，116年之後中華民國政府農業部會不會繼續推動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我絕對會繼續推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，絕對會繼續推動，我們的共識，我們再來找錢。第一個，1,500億的框架要先拿起來，我們為什麼會具體說出數字，因為我們很緊張，萬一你去拜託，但沒錢，排擠到你的公務預算，又會擠到其他預算。所以在這樣的情況之下你冷靜去思考，我們可以調整文字，目標也就是116年之後我們要繼續辦，而且經費不能少，所以我們願意寫一個也就是循政府預算去撥款，但先決條件是你必須要把1,500億這個部分拿掉，你才有法源依據去拜託，依照你財政上的次序去要求編列這個預算，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我非常感謝委員對農村再生經費的支持，但是以農業部的立場來講，因為在條文裡面如果列了這樣的金額，就違反了另外一個法律……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要列金額嘛！本席告訴你，其實它有討論的空間，剛剛本席在主席台的時候已經宣布了，可以把金額拿下來，但是你1,500億也要拿下來，對不對？就是希望增加的也要拿下來，大家都不在上面寫金額，這樣才能每一年、每一年去編列預算啦！不然……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？你認不認同本席所說的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然你們把1,500億匡在那裡，每一年就像乞丐一樣……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道，瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：農民沒有必要變成乞丐啦！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以委員變成提了第4個版本，就是連經費都不寫的意思？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，待會兒……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們再來研究一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你趕快研究，然後1,500億也要拿下來！待會兒我們審查法案的時候一起來努力，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是把它制定成依法可以每一年去編列預算。這樣才是真正釜底抽薪！好不好？這是第一個。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們幕僚也趕快去研議那個方案。","本席要請教的第二個問題是，現行農會選舉罷免辦法和漁會選舉罷免辦法的第十一條第五項都規定，農（漁）會合格候選人，可以向農（漁）會申請提供所屬選區選舉人名冊之會員姓名及戶籍地址資料。但農（漁）會會員會提供其個人資料，是因申請加入農（漁）會為會員之需用，但農（漁）會卻在未經會員同意下，違反其個資蒐集之目的，提供給候選人做為選舉之用，根據目前的個資法，這樣會員的權益的確會被危害到。所以本席要請教……","邏輯更奇怪的一件事情是，你們竟然怎麼做呢？根據農（漁）會選罷法第十一條第六項及第七項的規範，農（漁）會應實施適當之安全措施，候選人並應於選舉結束後，確實將資料予以銷毀。要予以銷毀喔！可是有關農（漁）會應實施適當之安全措施，目前僅做到提供選舉人名冊，再加上浮水印嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以如果候選人申請取得名冊後，再重新抄錄，就等於破解了你的浮水印啊！我拿到資料，我自己去抄、自己去印啊！你們要怎麼圍堵？這是一個。接下來，抄錄或影印多少份選舉人名冊，你會知道嗎？你們的人有跟著去嗎？你不知道！你沒有辦法去管控啊！還有更離譜的，你們說選舉結束後要銷毀，誰銷毀？你告訴我，到目前為止，執行上有誰銷毀啊？你知道嗎？你有追蹤嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們沒有追蹤。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！那你寫這個不是……","不好意思說啊！真的是離譜至極！浮水印可以被破解，一個政府政策的浮水印可以被破解！還有，白紙黑字寫著選舉結束申請人要把名冊銷毀，誰銷毀了？選舉完就完了，誰銷毀？你知不知道有沒有銷毀？有沒有管控？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有管控？"],["陳代理部長駿季：後面沒有相關的銷毀機制的確是一個非常大的漏洞。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：太離譜了嘛！對不對？哪有一個政府做這種事情！選舉耶！既然他們有選罷法，就要依法行事，還有個資法耶！統統都違法，而且行政部門也沒有管控，哪有這麼離譜的！對不對？你也認同這是不對的，因為我們知道現在個資保護受到高度重視，還有，現在詐騙很多耶！這些資料如果被拿去當做詐騙人頭戶，要怎麼還給我們民眾啊？我資料給農（漁）會，行政部門怎麼可以去做一個讓農（漁）會有機會成為詐騙集團的帳號！該不該打屁股啊？怎麼可能去做這種事情！離譜的政策之外，竟然還沒有管控！誰銷毀？浮水印都被破解！太離譜了！所以本席具體建議，你們應該要去討論農（漁）會的選罷法第十一條的修法並加以調整，基於人民的信賴保護原則，真正去保護大家的個資。","現在我們所有農（漁）會的會員都很緊張耶！大家擔心自己的資料會不會被印出去，一個帳號5,000塊錢，直接被賣掉成為詐騙的帳號耶！部長，你聽到會不會嚇到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：太恐怖了耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，其實對於農（漁）會的選舉，農業部的立場就是要儘量確保它的公平，這是一個大原則，但是以現在的做法，提供這樣一個可以影印出來的書面資料，雖然有浮水印，但是後面沒有監督、銷毀機制的話，的確會造成委員所說的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：太離譜了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以我們會來檢討，就是怎麼樣在維持公平機制下，針對這個名冊的閱覽或是什麼樣的新規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人民很恐慌，所以本席具體建議你趕快去檢討。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一週內提出方案，重點在於允許合格的候選人在一定的規範下得查閱選舉人名冊，這是公平的。大家要公平，但是不得對選舉人名冊有抄錄、攝影、影印、誦讀、錄音或者其他複製、保存的行為，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這是大原則……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是一定不可以的！"],["陳代理部長駿季：大原則是要公平，然後不能用類似影印的方式，因為照相也類似影印了嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以我們後續會來做詳實的檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席跟你建議得很清楚，請在一個禮拜內提出。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們一個禮拜內可以做個檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個禮拜你們提出之後，我們希望在一個月內完成草案的預告程序。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們提出草案以後會預告，讓利害關係人表達意見，然後再來做後續的處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，就一個月內完成預告。"],["陳代理部長駿季：一個禮拜可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個禮拜拿出方案……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是提出方案，不是預告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，一個禮拜拿出方案，提出方案之後的一個月內完成預告。"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果那個方案很順利的話，當然馬上就預告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！完成預告程序、馬上要公告。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你聽到這個就知道農民有多可憐，怎麼會資料都被公開！如果成為詐騙帳號，怎麼辦啊？農業部去設置一個讓全國農會、漁會有可能成為詐騙集團帳號的戶頭，這個太恐怖了！所以儘速，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，當初這也是立法院……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，儘速！儘速！"],["陳代理部長駿季：立法院主決議處理的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：處理得不對就要改啦！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們有達成共識，照那個時間，在一週內拿出你們的修法，如果內容OK，就在一個月內完成預告程序。","最後一個議題是：荔枝椿象可以炒來吃嗎？你有沒有吃過？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們食農法可以拿荔枝椿象來炒給人家看！這是什麼情形啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個我已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個知識到底是怎麼跑出來的？太離譜了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：很離譜啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有吃過荔枝椿象用炒的？可以吃嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：那是在環境教育裡面的一個課程，但是這個課程也不適當啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對呀！你有沒有吃過？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！你敢吃嗎？不行啦！你們也不能吃啦！因為這個是很危險的啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：它不是可用食材，因為要變成食材要衛福部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！非可用食材竟然可以到我們的系統裡頭，公然這樣教人家……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個是疏失啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：喔！有一個阿嬤弄完了，說這好像金龜子，這可以吃。我嚇死了，好不好？嚴格管控！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我告訴你，根據食安法，最高可以罰2億！錢固然重要，但最重要是觀念，政府部門不能帶頭做不對的事情嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會深刻檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：深刻檢討！好！"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：接下來請邱志偉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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調整文字目標也就是116年之後我們要繼續辦而且經費不能少那所以我們願意寫一個也就是說依照政府的這個這個循政府預算"},{"start":238.655,"end":257.777,"text":"去撥款去撥款但是先決條件你必須要把一千五百億這一個部分要拿掉你才有辦法有法源依據去拜託去去編列你的依照你的財政的這個這個次序去要求編列這個預算對不對"},{"start":260.247,"end":281.806,"text":"對,我想非常感謝委員對這個農村再生條例經費的一個支持。但是以農業部的立場來講,因為在條文裡面如果列了這樣的一個金額就違反了另外一個法律的立法。不要列金額嘛!本席告訴我,其實他有討論空間。剛剛本席在主席台的時候已經宣布了,可以把金額拿下來,但是你1500億要拿下來,也要拿下來。"},{"start":283.968,"end":286.409,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案：立法院議員"},{"start":299.64,"end":325.515,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案》案。adequate?所以委員被人提的第四個版本就是連經費都不寫的意思啊?待會對待會我們對不對我們再來研究一下你趕快研究然後1500億還拿下來待會我們才會寫上我們審查法案的時候一起來努力好不好就是把它制定成你依法可以每一年去編列預算"},{"start":327.097,"end":331.902,"text":"這樣子才是真正的釜底抽薪啦!好不好?這個第一個齁!好!所以你們幕僚也趕快去研議那個方案喔!第二個本席要請教的農會選辦法的規定跟漁會選辦法的規定第十一條第五項的規定你說"},{"start":347.319,"end":366.713,"text":"合格候選人可以向農運會申請所屬選區選舉人名冊的會員姓名及戶籍地址資料。農運會提供個人資料是因為申請加入農運會為會員之需要,但是農運會卻沒有經過會員的同意。"},{"start":371.916,"end":395.18,"text":"違反了各自收集的這個目標﹚這個目的﹚所以目前的各自法這個的確是會有危害到所以本席要請教目前你們更邏輯更奇怪的一件事情你們竟然怎麼做呢?你們是這個選票法裡頭你說第11條第6項第7這個跟第7項呢?你們有說喔?"},{"start":402.842,"end":428.659,"text":"是規範農運會應該實施適當的安全措施即候選人應於選舉結束後確實將資料予以銷毀予以銷毀喔而且你說農運會適當的安全措施你目前僅就到提供選舉人名冊再加上申請人的幸福證還有什麼浮水印嘛對不對所以呢如果候選人申請取得名冊後"},{"start":431.882,"end":440.909,"text":"你等於破解了你的輔水印啊我哪要知道我自己去抄啊我自己去印啊你們怎麼圍堵啊這是一個喔接下來你抄錄了之後的選舉人名稱引印多少份你會知道嗎你們的人有跟著去嗎你不知道那還有更你沒有辦法去管控啊還有更離譜的你們說選舉結束後你要銷毀誰銷毀"},{"start":457.722,"end":463.236,"text":"你告訴我,到目前為止執行有誰銷毀啊?你知道嗎?你有追蹤嗎?你知道嗎?你有追蹤嗎?"},{"start":466.752,"end":488.104,"text":"我們沒有追蹤對啊 那你這個不是不好意思說啊 真的是離譜至極啊撫水印了被破解 一個政府的政策撫水印了被破解還有寫了一個白紙寫黑字等到選舉完你要把名冊 申請的人申請的人要把名冊消尾 誰消尾啊"},{"start":490.768,"end":496.991,"text":"選舉完就完了誰消毀?你知不知道有沒有消毀?有沒有管控啊?有沒有管控?有沒有管控?對啊!你太離譜了嘛!對不對?哪有一個政府做這種事情?選舉欸!他要選辦法我們要依法行事欸!個資法有個資法欸!通通都違法!"},{"start":514.76,"end":534.741,"text":"而且行政部門也沒有管控,哪有這麼離間、這麼離譜?對不對?所以本期具體你也認同這是不對的因為我們知道現在個資保護是高度的重視那麼所以還有現在詐騙很多欸你這些資料如果拿去讓他成為詐騙的人頭戶"},{"start":537.287,"end":546.654,"text":"你怎麼還給我們民眾啊我資料給你農運會欸你怎麼可以行政部門去做一個讓農運會有機會成為詐騙集團的這個帳號啊該不該打屁股啊這沒有可能去做這種事情離譜的政策之外還沒有管控誰銷毀"},{"start":560.169,"end":562.372,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":577.222,"end":590.454,"text":"人民的信賴保護原則 真正以他們的個資保護啊現在我們所有農委會的會員都很緊張耶我會不會被印出去直接就拿去賣了一個億一個帳號五千塊我統統成為詐騙的帳號耶部長你聽到這你會嚇到耶"},{"start":598.783,"end":625.464,"text":"太恐怖了欸!我想跟委員說明齁,就是其實農委的選舉齁,農業部的立場就是要盡量去確保它的公平,這是一個大決策。但是以現在的做法,的確後面的提供這樣的一個資料齁,書面的就是可以引印出來的資料以後,雖然說有浮水印,但是後面的監督銷毀的機制沒有的時候,的確會照著委員所說的。"},{"start":626.164,"end":641.418,"text":"所以我們會來檢討就是在怎麼樣在維持一個公平的一個機制下去檢討他的一個針對這個名冊的閱覽或是什麼樣的一個新的一個規定人們也很恐慌所以本期具體建議你趕快去檢討一週內提出方案"},{"start":643.9,"end":667.057,"text":"重點在於你草案中允許合格的候選人在一定的規範下得去查閱選舉人名冊這是公平的大家要公平但是不得對選舉人名冊有抄錄有攝影有擬印有聳讀還有錄音或者其他複製或者是保存的行為對不對"},{"start":668.638,"end":672.48,"text":"這個一定不可以的!對!所以我們後續會來做詳細的檢討。那在一個禮拜內提出?對,我們一個禮拜內提出。好,一個禮拜內提出。那在一個禮拜你提出了之後,我們希望在一個月完成草案的預告程序。"},{"start":691.22,"end":696.083,"text":"一個禮拜可以一個禮拜拿出方案一個禮拜拿出方案然後提出方案之後的一個月內完成預告"},{"start":713.334,"end":713.354,"text":"案。"},{"start":732.356,"end":736.658,"text":"農業部去設置一個讓全國農會、漁會成為有可能是詐騙集團帳號的戶頭,這個太恐怖了,所以禁訴好不好?禁訴!禁訴!好!"},{"start":749.382,"end":767.756,"text":"處理都不對就要改啦!對不對?好!我們有達成共識照那個時間一週內拿出你們的修法一個如果程序OK這個內容OK大家就一個月內預告程序完成最後一個議題喔你那個荔枝春香可以炒來吃嗎?你有沒有吃過?"},{"start":769.438,"end":794.712,"text":"阿你吃不吃?不吃你農師華可以去叫荔枝去去拿荔枝春香來炒給人家看這是什麼情形阿?這個這個我已經齁這個地形是到底怎麼造出來的?這太離譜了很離譜啦阿你有沒有吃過荔枝春香用炒的?沒有阿可以吃嗎?那個環境教育在環境教育裡面的一個課程但是這個課程也不適當啦對啊阿你有沒有吃過?沒有對啊你覺得吃嗎?"},{"start":799.346,"end":799.366,"text":"案。"},{"start":816.135,"end":833.848,"text":"檢討"}]}},{"id":"152524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f022c42457dbfb64ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45ddacdabe21bd40ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:05:24 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11:17:31","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":727,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:17:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T11:05:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時5分）請外交部吳部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，今天我看了前面幾個委員質詢，你應該是最後一次在外交及國防委員會詢答。今天的題目原本是要談WHA的問題，可是確實這兩個禮拜以來密件的洩密事件，我認為這是非常嚴肅的事情，未來即便部長可能不在外交部，後面的次長或新任的部長來，外交部還是會有很多機密跟密件的文件，這裡面涉及該如何監督、該如何維護國會跟行政方面對於密件怎麼處理。我覺得這是非常嚴肅的問題，因為這個問題沒有處理好，後面國安或者是國際關係都可能連帶受到影響。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我有幾件事情要跟部長請教，週末的時候我們看到一個新聞，這個新聞上面寫，司法委員會國民黨籍的吳宗憲召委說這個案子是非告訴乃論，外交部沒辦法撤告，所以他建議國民黨的委員要輪番給外交部壓力。"],["吳部長釗燮：我今天已經領教到了。"],["洪委員申翰：給外交部壓力，對外交部施壓，逼外交部自己具狀跟檢察官說，外交部希望不起訴。我要在這邊說，我今天不特別針對個人，但我想先請問，現在國民黨的吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話，外交部的反應是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論，但是我個人的看法是，臺灣是三權分立、相互制衡的憲政體制，如果用壓迫行政部門的方式干涉司法權的話，會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套。我覺得這個萬萬不可，尤其是違反刑法第一百三十二條的事證如此明確，把文件秀出來，所有的媒體都有拍到，在這種狀況之下，外交部沒有不處理的空間。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我看到這個新聞的時候，第一時間感覺現在在野黨已經變成一個政治黑幫了嗎？在我的印象中，只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾圍事的做法，為一個違法者施壓，為一個違法者開脫，我真的覺得好像是遇到黑幫。這個事情很簡單，我們是國會議員，在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題。第一個問題，部長，你們2月23號送進立法院的這一份文件到底是不是密件？"],["吳部長釗燮：列「密」。"],["洪委員申翰：是「密」。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["洪委員申翰：列「密」，我也收到了，上面蓋了一個大的「密」，這是第一個。第二個，就你們來看，徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密？"],["吳部長釗燮：被媒體拍到，他把這個秀出來了。"],["洪委員申翰：從媒體的照片上面看出來，他其實有把它秀出來，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["洪委員申翰：第三個，這個事情我們可以自己回答，馬文君委員也在，機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序？我們可以直接說有，這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法備查，如果委員會要監督就是備查改審查，大家就可以審查，大家就可以監督，就這麼簡單，國會是有監督密件程序的。下面一個問題，徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序？沒有。有合法的程序，但他沒有用，所以問題非常、非常的簡單，不是不能監督啊！這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊！所以列密就不能監督，我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡？","第三點，我要問外交部，徐委員要監督的時候，有沒有私下和外交部討論，希望用一個不公開的方式，想要來詢問、質詢或質疑這份密件的內容？有或沒有？"],["吳部長釗燮：並沒有，其實立法院有一些高層的長官私底下也有來問，我們就用機密的方式處理，所以是可以用機密……"],["洪委員申翰：用不公開的方式來處理，但是徐委員應該沒有，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我也確定馬文君委員排的機密會議，或者是外交及國防委員會排的機密會議，就沒有問到這一題嘛。所以有這麼多可以監督機密文件的方法，對不起，都沒有使用，只用了一個作法，就是在媒體上面公開，其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的。我再問一個問題，徐委員有沒有用各種他想要講的理由，跟外交部說這是不是應該解密？他有沒有來要請求解密？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：在他公布前，有嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：也沒有要求解密，所以我真的不知道現在為了這個事情在吵什麼，道理這麼明確，明明就有合法監督的方法你不用，用這種作法，現在再來聚眾圍事、聚眾施壓，我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼。我要跟大家說，我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題，牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件，如果未來密件監督的方法，全部都是直接把它拿到媒體前面公開，然後只要犯了法就撂人來施壓部長，如果這次可以這樣幹的話，那以後臺灣、中華民國還有什麼密件、還有什麼機密可言？這是非常嚴肅的問題。","我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度？因為我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情。部長，我不知道你轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力，但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚，沒有模糊地帶。我不針對徐委員，我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為，今天任何的委員，就算是民進黨的委員，做了這件事情，我們也不允許。所以，部長，我要麻煩你，也許你下個星期就有另外一個職務，但你轄下的公務人員、這些文官們接下來還是會面對這件事情，我希望外交部在這件事情上，該據理力爭的就必須據理力爭，該爭取一個合法的或依法的行為的，就必須有依法的行為，這沒有模糊地帶，部長，可以嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有問題，我們外交部的同仁每天處理很多件的機密文件或資料，對於我們來講，這些就涉及我們國家的安全、國家的利益，我們同仁自己都有很高度的自我期待，就是這些事情我們要儘量去保護，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問，為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法，這道理非常簡單嘛！請問這次0403地震，社會上捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府，花蓮縣政府收到這些捐款以後，它的支出是不是都有用政府採購法？當然沒有嘛！但我們會不會因為它沒有用政府採購法，就說這裡面有弊端，就要傅委員或徐縣長出來說清楚講明白，指控他們言裡面有弊案，指控他圖利誰？我們不會嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：尤其指控的對象是協助我們的人，譬如捐款給花蓮……"],["洪委員申翰：這就是一個捐助案嘛！所以我在這邊要說，這事情非常嚴肅，我們希望外交部能夠堅守立場。","接下來我剩的時間不多，我想請教外交部，這段時間我們看到美國跟菲律賓在南海有一個肩並肩的計畫，我想部長其實有注意到吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，這個是聯合演習。"],["洪委員申翰：在這個聯合演習計畫裡面，我們其實現在看到第一、在第一島鏈裡面，我們過去在處理臺灣到菲律賓這一段的時候，好像有一些在海巡上的合作計畫，是不是？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作。"],["洪委員申翰：現在我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面，假如我們現在跟菲律賓也開始有相關的合作的話，據我瞭解，可能外交部也有從中協助，往下越南跟菲律賓也開始締結更多一些其它的海上合作協議，甚至我們也看到越南現在也在改善它跟美方的關係，也許也有機會，我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍往越南、往菲律賓這段來延伸，讓第一島鏈民主國家聯盟能夠更加地堅實，這件事情部長有什麼看法？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作，不管是桌上的或者是實兵的，這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的，但是有關於媒體報導的我們跟菲律賓合作的部分，因為我們不是業管機關，也沒有受到其他機關的委託，所以我在這邊沒有答案。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我剛才要說明的事情是，現在這些合作中確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的地緣政治的契機，我們很希望不管外交部、國防部或者海巡署，只要有機會，就應該擴展我們合作的版圖。包括部長接下來可能會到國安會，但以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊接受質詢，可是有機會我希望我們能夠盡力爭取，把我們第一島鏈的防線，尤其是對於威權國家、極權國家的這個防線能夠做得更加堅實。也許我們存在這個機會，至於用什麼方式，我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式，但怎麼樣用一個彈性的方式，符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式，這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位時必須多費心，可是我們非常非常期待這件事情，也請吳部長把這件事情帶到下一個職位的時候，再來做一個更縝密、更符合我們需求的規劃，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：會，我們會朝這樣的方向來努力，未來還是希望有委員提供我們一些寶貴意見的這個機會，那我在這邊也要說明，就是所有委員的說明或建議，對我們來講都是非常好的參考，即使是反對黨的委員，譬如陳永康委員，他的很多意見都非常的寶貴，所以未來只要有好的意見的委員，我們仍然會繼續來請教。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時24分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ 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吳宗憲吳宗憲召委講這樣子的話外交部的反應是什麼"},{"start":128.867,"end":155.587,"text":"我們外交部並沒有針對這個事情討論但是我個人的這個看法就是說我們台灣的這個憲政體制是一個三權分立相互制衡的一個體制那如果說用壓迫行政部門去處理去干涉那個司法權的話那這個會讓三個權力的相互制衡整個亂了套啦我是覺得說這個是萬萬不可那尤其是這種"},{"start":156.288,"end":160.49,"text":"不然我看到這新聞的時候第一時間我感覺現在在野黨是已經變成是一個政治黑幫了嗎在我的印象中只有黑幫才會用這種聚眾為事的做法"},{"start":185.214,"end":195.306,"text":"來去為一個違法者施壓來為一個違法者開脫我真的覺得好像是遇到了黑幫啊這事情很簡單我們是國會議員在國會的殿堂就是談法律問題"},{"start":203.612,"end":226.231,"text":"第一個問題部長是到底這份文件你們2月23號送進立法院這份文件是不是密件列密是密是列密我也收到了上面蓋了一個大大的密這第一個第二個徐委員有沒有涉嫌洩密因為被媒體拍到就你們來看從媒體照片上面看出他其實有把他秀出來對不對是第三個"},{"start":228.331,"end":256.982,"text":"這個事情我們可以自己回答包括馬文俊委員也在機密文件在國會有沒有合法的監督程序我們可以直接說有這個案子進到立法院是照條約締結法來被查如果委員會要來監督其實就是被查改審查大家就可以審查大家就可以監督就這麼簡單所以國會是有監督密件的程序的下面一個問題"},{"start":259.298,"end":265.239,"text":"徐委員有沒有用合法監督密件的監督程序沒有有程序合法的程序但他沒有用所以問題非常非常的簡單啊不是不能監督啊這跟不能監督根本是兩回事啊所以要把獵密就不能監督我聽不懂邏輯在哪裡第三點我要問外交部"},{"start":290.464,"end":299.072,"text":"徐委員在要跟你監督的時候他有沒有來私下找外交部討論希望用一個不公開的方式想要來詢問或者是來質詢質疑這一個"},{"start":302.64,"end":331.105,"text":"這份密件的文件的內容有或沒有?並沒有其實立法院有一些長官高層的長官私底下也有來問那我們就用機密的這個方式處理所以是可以用機密的方式用不公開的方式來處理但是徐委員應該沒有對不對?沒有好我也確定馬文俊委員排的機密會議或者是外交國防排的機密會議就沒有問到這一題嘛所以有這麼多可以來監督機密文件的方法對不起都沒有使用只用了一個做法就是在媒體上面公開"},{"start":332.225,"end":351.733,"text":"其實我真的不知道這有什麼好爭的我再問一個問題徐委員有沒有拿著各種的他想要講的理由來跟外交部說這是不是應該解密他有沒有來請求解密沒有在他公布前有嗎沒有也沒有要求解密所以我真的不知道現在在這個事情在吵什麼道理這麼明確明明就有合法監督的方法你不用用這種做法"},{"start":360.623,"end":365.004,"text":"現在再要聚眾來為事聚眾來施壓我不知道國民黨這是在做什麼我要跟大家說我覺得這是一個非常嚴肅的問題這牽涉到未來我們的國會到底要怎麼監督密件如果未來密件的監督的方法全部都是直接把它拿在媒體前面公開然後只要犯了法我們就繞人來施壓部長如果這是可以這樣幹的話"},{"start":391.598,"end":417.596,"text":"那以後臺灣中華民國還有什麼密件還有什麼機密可言這是非常嚴肅的問題我今天在這邊為什麼要用這個態度我覺得這是沒有模糊地帶的事情部長我不知道你所轄下的公務員接下來會在這件事上承受多少壓力但我認為這條線在那邊清清楚楚沒有模糊地帶我不針對徐委員"},{"start":422.045,"end":446.414,"text":"我只針對這一個洩密的違法行為今天是任何的委員就算是民進黨的委員做了這件事情我們也不允許所以部長我要麻煩你也許你下個星期你就有另外一個職務但你狹下的公務人員你狹下的這些文官們還是會接下來面對這件事情我希望外交部在這件事情"},{"start":448.473,"end":448.493,"text":"這個對我們來講"},{"start":473.109,"end":500.102,"text":"所謂的這些機密的東西就是涉及到我們國家的安全國家的利益的事情我們的同仁自己都有這種很高度的自我期待就是說這些事情我們要盡量去保護剛剛國民黨的委員甚至在問說為什麼這個捐助案沒有用政府採購法這道理非常簡單嘛請問這次0403地震大家社會上面捐了一堆錢給花蓮縣政府"},{"start":501.528,"end":521.69,"text":"華聯縣政府收到這些捐款以後他的支出是不是都有用政府採購法當然沒有嘛但我們會不會因為他沒有用政府採購法就說你這裡面有弊端就要副委員或者是徐縣長出來說清楚講明白指控他這裡面有弊案指控他要圖利誰我們不會嘛"},{"start":523.513,"end":545.84,"text":"尤其是指控的對象是這種協助我們的這些人比如說捐款給花蓮的這些人被指責這就是一個捐助案嘛這就是一個捐助案嘛所以我們在這邊我要說這事情非常嚴肅我們希望外交部要能夠堅守立場今天我還剩時間不多我想請教跟外交部請教我們最近時間其實看到在南海"},{"start":546.94,"end":553.494,"text":"美國跟菲律賓之間有一個這個肩並肩的計畫我想部長其實有注意到吧對 這個是聯合演習這聯合演習的計畫裡面我們其實現在看到"},{"start":556.923,"end":581.513,"text":"第一個在第一島鏈裡面我們過去其實在處理台灣到菲律賓這一段的時候其實我們看到好像有一些在海巡上面的合作計畫是不是部長我們跟很多其他的國家都有海巡合作是那現在我們在看到我自己看到在第一島鏈裡面假如我們現在跟菲律賓這邊也有開始相關的合作的話據我了解可能外交部這邊也有從中來協助"},{"start":583.194,"end":602.618,"text":"那往下現在在越南跟菲律賓也開始締結一些更多其他的海上合作的關係甚至我們看到越南現在也在改善他跟美方之間的關係也許也有機會我們可以把我們海上合作的範圍甚至有沒有機會再往越南"},{"start":603.103,"end":609.568,"text":"非常謝謝委員我們的海巡能夠跟其他國家來進行合作不管是桌上的或者是士兵的那這些都是我們希望能夠來促進的但是有關於媒體出現的那個我們台灣跟菲律賓的這種合作的這個部分"},{"start":627.543,"end":635.707,"text":"現在在這些合作的機會確實出現了對我們來講相對有利的 地緣政治的契機我們很希望不管外交部 不管國防部 或者是我們的海巡只要有機會 我們就應該擴展我們合作的版圖"},{"start":654.858,"end":672.087,"text":"也包括部長接下來可能會到國安會當然以後國安會秘書長不一定會在這邊來接受質詢可是有機會我們希望我們能夠盡力爭取把我們第一島鏈的防線尤其是對於威權國家及全國家的這個防線能夠做得更加的堅實"},{"start":673.208,"end":697.97,"text":"好 那我認為也許我們是存在這個機會但用什麼方式我們可能沒有辦法用正式的國防的方式但怎麼樣一個彈性的方式符合我們國家利益跟我們當前困境需求的方式這部分當然接下來也要請吳部長到下一個職位的時候必須多費心可是我們非常非常期待這件事情也請吳部長把這件事情也許再帶到你下一個職位的時候再來做一個更準密符合我們需求的規劃好不好"},{"start":698.37,"end":698.57,"text":"謝謝部長 空位有期"}]}},{"id":"152523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c02b4ad4fc929f7ca696869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e457de200420ef263515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:53:45 - 11:06:20","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":755,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:06:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:53:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時53分）主席，謝謝，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，依照赦免法相關的規定，未來赦免，你是承總統之令做相關的研議，由法務部研議嘛，對不對？過去中華民國有8次的特赦紀錄，剛才莊瑞雄委員也有臚列出來，我想我就不一一贅述了。但是我們看到這8次的特赦，有蔣中正總統、有李登輝總統、陳水扁自己本身擔任總統時也有兩度特赦，蔡英文總統也有兩次特赦，一個是對布農族的原住民獵人王光祿，第二次就是針對韓豫平少將以及他的隨從官，分別予以特赦。這些特赦案，我們詳細予以歸類，大概就是有政治犯、有判亂罪，透過特赦達成一個和解，也有因為立下戰功，也有因為價值理念衝突而不慎觸法的，也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而觸法，也有因為情輕法重，判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦。我現在想請問次長，陳水扁前總統因為貪污案被判刑20年，龍潭購地案判刑那麼重，你認為予以特赦的理由符合前面幾次特赦的理由嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛一直強調，到目前為止，法務部還沒有收到正式特赦令的總統指示，我們沒有辦法先做預測。另外，誰該特赦、誰不該特赦？憲法規定是總統的特別權力，我也沒有辦法預判。"],["林委員思銘：是。次長，但是我想未來你會承他的命研議嘛，所以我們現在就很好奇，到底總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統？其實我在想最主要的原因可能就基於他是前總統，他是民進黨的創黨大老，所以蔡總統就在下任前想要給他一個特赦。我想基本上對於蔡總統的特赦權，我們予以尊重，社會自有公評。但這次引起社會大眾非常大的一個疑慮，就是認為這次特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案，另外4個正在停審中的二次金改國泰併世華等4個案件不在範圍內，所以他的特赦正當性備受質疑！也就是說，過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何司法案件，他已經沒有任何司法案件正在法院審理中了，但是陳水扁前總統如果這個案件特赦，但是他身上還仍然背負4個案件還沒有判決定讞，這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎？法務部您的看法？你認為這樣子有正當性嗎？一個人還背負4個案子，竟然總統要對他已經被判決確定的其中一個案子予以特赦，站在法務部追求公正正義的立場，你認為對於這樣一個罪犯給他特赦，對得起我們這個社會、對得起這個國家、對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個問題如同我剛剛所回復委員的，特赦是總統的權力。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想我也不為難你啦！其實我很想告訴民進黨的朋友們，在這4個案件還沒有判決定讞前，蔡總統要特赦陳水扁真的不符社會的期待，我們尊重你的特赦權，但是你要行使特赦權，真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡。我個人建議，如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統，你們真的那麼想要特赦陳水扁的話，是不是等到他這4個案子定讞之後再一併全部特赦，這樣不是更好嗎？就基於他是前總統，你們要尊重他，我想我們沒有意見，但是在這4個案件還沒有判決定讞前你們要特赦他，從法的立場來看，真的很站不住腳啦！所以我也希望法務部還有司法院，秘書長，如果想要讓陳水扁趕快獲得特赦，這4個停審的案件儘快恢復審理，不要再遮遮掩掩了。剛才謝龍介委員講的，追訴權時效可能都快消滅了，趕快恢復審判嘛！陳水扁總統就出來面對嘛！你停審的原因，剛才我們的總召傅崐萁委員也講得非常清楚，完全不符合停審的相關規定，保外就醫還能夠趴趴走，大家都覺得根本不是在實踐司法正義，而是讓一個人享有特權。所以我們是希望，如果真的要特赦他，我的建議是，陳水扁總統趕快就你的4個案件，有罪、無罪在還沒有確定前，我不敢講，但是你面對司法的審理，趕快把這4個案件作出判決，待定讞之後我才呼籲未來的賴清德總統再來決定要不要給予特赦，我想這個正當性可能會比較夠。次長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我尊重委員的決定，也尊重總統的職權。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，針對停審的原因，顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛！司法院是不是要儘速地通知他趕快重啟審判？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個屬於個案，是個案法官的權責，他會加以判斷。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，這不是個案，我想大家是明眼人都看得很清楚，你本身也擔任過法官，法學素養一定非常地深厚嘛！就您個人的判斷，您認為這個個案看到他趴趴走，這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎？這種案件，法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快重啟審判嗎？司法院沒有一個立場嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法行政……"],["林委員思銘：這個你們都可以裁量的嘛！你們現在就完全等於說是把司法正義拋在腦後了啦！只因為他是陳水扁前總統啦！所以這個不好啦！","最後一個問題我再問你一下，我想除了特赦的問題以外，有關於全國大減刑，我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑，1975年嚴家淦總統也有，1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑，2007年陳水扁任內也有實行，所以歷年來已經有5次減刑。以最近一次的2007年為例，符合減刑的資格共有2萬5,000人，當時有1萬943人出獄。請問次長，當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為歷年來至少有5次減刑，每一次減刑的條件跟理由都不一樣。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！您大概可以敘述一下，你還記得嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我手上沒有資料，因為它的理由都有寫。"],["林委員思銘：我請問一下，其中一個原因會不會是因為監所人滿為患？"],["黃次長謀信：這是一個附屬的效應，但也不會把它拿來當作減刑的事由。"],["林委員思銘：另外一個是不是總統大赦天下，他要去寬宥這些犯罪者，希望他能夠趕快重新做人、以啟自新，所以給以予減刑的寬典？"],["黃次長謀信：我們的赦免法中，大赦、特赦、減刑、復權都有這樣的效應，這是總統特別的權力，會產生剛剛委員所提的效應。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛！所以前面幾任總統的5次減刑，其實主要的理由應該就是，他給予這些寬典，就是在展現他讓罪犯能夠有自新的機會，趕快回復到社會重新做人、以啟自新。所以我想問你，這一次賴清德總統上任，有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個還是總統的職權，我不敢說。但是如果要全國性減刑的話，他必須要比照大赦的程序來處理，那就是一個法律案了，就必須要經過……"],["林委員思銘：所以法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息？"],["黃次長謀信：目前沒有。"],["林委員思銘：主席，我再問一個問題。次長，因為你剛才一直提到，你到現在為止都沒有收到總統叫行政院下令給你們法務部，要求趕快做相關赦免的研議。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員思銘：那請問你，現在蔡總統的任期只剩下5天而已，如果他在這幾天下令，請你們法務部趕快研議，你作業上來得及嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，赦免法是規定，他是「得交」研議，他也可以不交，他也可以自己就作赦免的決定，不見得要交研議。"],["林委員思銘：他自己直接作……"],["黃次長謀信：對，赦免法規定的是「得交」本部來研議，是「得」，所以不見得會交研議。"],["林委員思銘：如果他交給你們研議，你們來得及作業嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛有說，事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題，我們都有做一些法制上的研議或處理，也不是為了這個個案，事實上任何……"],["林委員思銘：所以你們有在預做研議、著手做研議了？"],["黃次長謀信：做法律上的討論，不是就這個個案做研議。法律上的討論，我們當然會做一些先期的處理，任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會……"],["林委員思銘：所以你來得及就對了？我們現在講的是假設嘛！如果他就是希望你們法務部……，法務部一定要有一個說法啊！總統自己直接發布這個令，這也滿奇怪的啊！不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：但法律上規定的是「得」，不見得一定、必須要，不是「應」而是「得」。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們作業上來得及嗎？你就給我回答來得及、來不及。"],["黃次長謀信：事實上法律上研議我們會在一定的期限內完成，如果有必要的話。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在先處理臨時提案，臨時提案共1案，請議事人員宣讀。","一、","案由：","法務部於今年4月24日及5月2日，就「如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類製作」議題，向本委員會提報藉由「110-112年三年期之檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統」建置，可利用AI系統1.生成酒駕類型書類初稿；2.製作詐欺案件被害人匯款附表；3.判讀累犯；4.產製發查或核退建議；5.案件數位電子卷證的加註標籤及辨識等外，並建構地檢署介接警詢筆錄電子檔系統。此外，自111年5月1日起，各地檢署試行「內勤案件以遠距視訊解送」制度，法務部認該AI系統及視訊制度有助於減輕檢警的工作負荷或簡化偵查流程。","稽之上開AI系統係法務部於110年提報之「新世代檢察革新科技計畫」，業已建置完備，經費總計3,169萬2,000元，且視訊制度推行2年有餘，然於5月2日召開公聽會時，有學者專家質疑各該系統績效不彰，制度甚或未積極推動落實。是以，實際之執行成效如何，究否逹成預期的成果，惟法務部報告中，均未提出迄今的具體統計數據（例如，符合預設案件類型的案件數、實際採用的案件數、成效滿意度），以供本委員會研議，公帑是否確實用在刀口上，有無實際減輕基層檢警同仁的工作負荷，以利判斷計畫執行成果是否正向。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於明（16）日內提供績效報告，及上開闕漏之統計數據，並於二個月內提出檢討及精進報告，內容應併含如下事項：","1.研議輕微竊盜案件是否於內勤當天，利用遠距視訊偵訊告訴人，以縮短後續偵查時程、提升緩起訴處分或職權處分件數及書類簡化的可行性，以及其他能有效縮短案件偵查時程之具體措施。","2.工欲善其事，必先利其器，遠距視訊硬體及相關設備的穩定性及便捷性，素為使用者所詬病，嚴重影響制度的推展及成果，應定期或不定期檢討硬體設備品質良莠、使用情形，及研議如何提高政策執行成效的具體措施。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　翁曉玲"],["主席：因為現在還有第二個臨時提案，是剛剛提出來的，我們現在也一併宣讀第二案。","二、","案由：委員羅智強等6人，有鑑於本委員會議事過程屢遭不當干擾，個別委員未經主席允許即使用麥克風，或是刻意影響其他委員發言。建請立法院總務單位，針對本委員會麥克風，設置相關靜音裝置，供會議主席維持議場秩序維護國會形象及品質，以利議事順暢進行。是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：羅智強　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁　　謝龍介　　黃國昌　　林思銘"],["主席：謝謝。如果你們有需要第二案的書面資料，我請議事人員準備。","就第一案的部分，因為是我提的臨時提案，所以我這邊簡單就臨時提案的部分說明。","臨時提案的部分，主要是法務部過去3年有一個AI系統的建置，但是這個部分因為我參加了歷次的許多公聽會，有很多專家學者以及目前有施行桃園地檢的檢察官認為這個系統的績效不彰。因為過去總共花費的預算已經有3,169萬2,000元了，在法務部的報告中並沒有提出到目前為止的具體數據，例如符合這些案件類型的案件數或實際採用的案件數，或是成效的滿意度，這個都沒有。","因為法務部接下來3年也都還要繼續這個計畫，我們為了確定這個錢是使用在刀口上的，是不是真的有這個必要，我們當然會依據法務部所提供的數據去瞭解我們要持續地支持還是要對這個部分加以限縮，所以我希望法務部明天能夠提出績效報告。","另外，還要在2個月內要提出一個研討跟精進的報告。有關績效的部分，為什麼我說明天要提出來給我？因為相關的數據，法務部之前也給過國科會，但是法務部並沒有給我，我也不懂這個原因是什麼，法務部可以給國科會，為什麼不可以給我？所以我希望法務部在明天能夠把數據給我們。","另外，也要去思考一下，微罪遠距訊問的一些設備，還有目前的狀況，以提升緩起訴或職權處分件數，還有書類簡化的可行性。再來就是遠端視訊設備的穩定性還有便捷性，我們是不是要定期或不定期地研討？","我的臨時提案的內容如上。請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，本席對這個臨時提案的本意敬表同意，而且支持，因為我們要讓我們的基層司法人員能夠減輕負擔，工欲善其事，必先利其器，不管是AI，還是遠端視訊，過去在其他地方都有採行過，提升它的品質及效率的確是我們應該支持的。","那剛剛主席在提到本提案的內容之一說到明日要提供，因為這個很讓人詫異！短短一天要怎麼提供？不過後來主席有做提案說明，說因為之前法務部有提供給國科會，卻沒有提供給我們召委，所以我是不是可以請主席請法務部說明一下，為什麼這個東西你可以提供給國科會，卻不能給本委員會的召委或本委員會？"],["主席：莊委員，你要先……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請他們說明。"],["主席：因為剛剛莊委員有舉手。莊委員，你要先說明，還是要先……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我對如何有效來縮減整個偵查程序，不要讓它過於延宕，這個其實談的都是訴訟經濟，但是對召委吳宗憲委員這樣的一個提案，我有幾個疑慮，譬如你說輕微案件是否在內勤當天，當然這個應該指的是檢察官，也就是檢察官當天利用遠距視訊偵訊告訴人，以縮短後續的偵查程序，這樣當然不用舟車勞頓，對被告、對被偵訊人本身也有利益，經濟上的利益，可是有時候你也很難馬上就判斷這叫輕微的竊盜案件，結果輕不輕微都變成警察局的基層第一線人員去做判斷，最後檢察官一問下去或者一個案子程序踐行完以後一問下去，共犯又一大堆，所以什麼叫做「輕微」？我們兩個相約來偷摘芒果，摘一堆，摘了以後，好像偷摘芒果沒什麼，可是看到最後，一串像肉粽。","對整個訴訟經濟，還有減緩司法人員的壓力，我相信在司法委員會裡面經過大家的論辯，司法院也好，法務部也好，大家其實都往這個方向去做，可是用遠距偵訊的方式與書類的簡化其實是兩件事，真的是兩件事，又是不是這樣就能提升緩起訴案件，其實也未必，這也都未必。所以對你的提案，從這個提案的微言大義裡面，我可以知道方向我們大家都一致，只是是不是可以改一下？因為這其實是兩件事，視訊的偵訊與書類的簡化，我是覺得這是兩碼事，以上。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，這個提案說明的部分，我就簡單補充一下，原則上，就是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：文字啦！"],["主席：好，沒問題。主要提這個是因為現在內勤受理現行犯，我自己的經驗，其實很多是類似超商竊盜，偷個小麵包、牛奶那一種，那是不是需要用到2、3個警察把他移送到地檢，這個我們主要是考量經濟的問題，像2個警察送1個人犯到地檢署有時候車程是40分鐘，甚至1個小時，譬如從大溪分局送到桃園地檢署，我主要是考量這個，當然這個只是提案給法務部，法務部可以去設計怎麼樣的模式比較適當，沒問題。這個文字的部分，如果莊委員有建議怎麼修正，我們再來討論，但是大意上，我想應該大家都還蠻認同我們簡化檢警的壓力。","接下來是不是請法務部能夠說明一下，這個數據為什麼有提供給國科會，並沒有提供給我們？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為AI的計畫基本上是國科會就整體國家相關的科學發展動用國科會的基金，所以在內控上，我們必須要定期地向國科會陳報一些成果績效，至於為什麼沒有報到大院，因為我沒有印象大院有要求本部就這個數據提供過，如果要提供，當然沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：明天……"],["沈委員發惠：時間……"],["黃次長謀信：時間的話，明天是不是有點急？是不是可以再寬限長一點的時間？"],["莊委員瑞雄：一個禮拜啦！"],["沈委員發惠：一個禮拜，讓他們行政作業啦！"],["主席：因為這個數據他們已經提供過了，還需要那麼久嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：有一個作業……"],["沈委員發惠：他們公務機關，公文要簽簽簽，不是……"],["主席：不然，這樣好不好？這個禮拜提供，好不好？今天才禮拜三，這個禮拜數據提供給我們，之前我們其實就AI的部分已經問過很多次了，部裡面的相關事情，是不是你們把提供給國科會的數據給我們就好？次長，其實我們不是要擋這件事，我們是要把這件事情弄清楚而已，也許我們會非常地支持……"],["黃次長謀信：召委提的是三天內，還是這個禮拜之前？"],["主席：對，就這個禮拜給我們，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好。另外，就內容的部分，跟委員報告，是不是我們司長做一些簡單的回應？"],["主席：OK。"],["郭司長永發：主席、各位委員，大家好！有關於這個臨時提案的第5行，我們建議「建構」兩字改成「達成」；然後因為我們沒有系統，那是電子檔，沒有系統，這個「系統」兩字是不是刪除？另外，我們這個內勤視訊是從111年12月1日開始，不是5月1日開始，所以也建議把它改成12月1日；還有第二段「（例如……）」裡面的文句，是不是建議「符合預設案件類型的案件數」改成「試辦案件的件數」？因為這樣比較符合實際；然後「實際採用」後面加4個字，就是「視訊解送」這4個字。就以上的修正，建請能夠用這種方式提案，以上說明。"],["主席：請問一下，對剛剛機關希望修改的這個部分，各位委員有沒有不同的意見？"],["沈委員發惠：沒意見。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒意見。"],["主席：有嗎？沒有。請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是給每位委員都一份，好不好？不是只有召委有。"],["主席：好，會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：委員會每個委員一份。"],["主席：好，修改後的資料麻煩給各位委員都各一份。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括他們本週內或者下週前提供的這個資料不是只有給召委，是給本會委員。"],["主席：是、是、是，謝謝。","如果各位委員和機關都沒有其他異議的話，我們就依照修正後的文字通過。","現在我們就善用時間，直接先處理第二案好了。就第二案的部分，請問提案委員有沒有補充說明？"],["羅委員智強：鑒於其他委員會的布置狀態及詢答的狀態，我覺得在我們司法及法制委員會有一點獨樹一幟，就是每個委員的席上都有麥克風，因為發現過去確實常常會有相互干擾，影響主席主持會議的情形，所以我的提案重點就是把我們這個桌上型麥克風設置一個靜音的總開關，麻煩總務處來設置，我們平常在詢答的過程當中，基本上總開關就不開，但是有些特殊狀況需要開的話，另外再去處理，比方說我看黨團協商有時候會在這個地方舉行，有需要桌上型麥克風再另外開，平常我們不管是佳濱，或者是宗憲召委在主持會議的時候，桌上型麥克風有一個總開關就把它關掉了，你要講話就到這兩個臺上來講，這樣比較能夠使我們的議事跟會議進行比較有效率一點點，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，提案委員已經補充說明完畢。","請莊委員發言。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席及在場所有的委員，對於羅智強委員的提案，我敬表反對。你看在各個委員會裡面，你去想想看，在我們司法及法制委員會其實叫作過度攻防，這個也都是短暫的，你說多干擾，現在整個司法及法制委員會如果不這樣吵來吵去，其實也不像司法及法制委員會，我坐在這邊沒有看到你們吵，我也不太習慣，我真的也不太習慣，你說刻意去干擾其他委員、影響其他委員，其實這也沒有啦！那個就是叫爭執，也不會說羅智強講話，我就說你在說什麼有的沒有的，這也都不是啦！我們從現場都可以判斷得出來，其實就是意見的不同，表達方式大家難免會有所不同，剛好都是碰到議題啦，議題是極度的一個爭議，我倒是這樣建議，這種案子羅委員再思考一下，不要處理這個提案啦！沒人會在羅智強講話時，大家會刻意去影響，說不定當你在說話時，如果我來亂，你一定很爽的說：莊瑞雄這樣來亂一下，太好了，我們兩個在這邊吵架。我們兩個哪有在吵架，這都是吵假的，哪裡有在吵架，你去看啦，司法及法制委員會如果做這個限制以後，大家又會去牽拖嘛，那整個院會呢？在委員會你可以講得義正辭嚴，你去看真正在院會裡面，每次拿著麥克風大吵大鬧都是你們國民黨，我不好意思說而已，但是我覺得很好耶！我覺得你們吵得很好，我那邊聽都很悅耳，每次在表決時，我如果沒聽你們國民黨拿個麥克風在那邊亂一下，我說那就不像國民黨了！我說那就不像國民黨了！所以說什麼設置靜音裝置，你如果要這樣做，乾脆整個院會都這樣處理，以後麥克風都不要拿進去，或是以後要拿麥克風進去，就授權韓國瑜院長有一個裝置可以把國民黨帶進來的麥克風消音。","整個議事程序的進行有沒有辦法維持，這個其實都在考驗著主席的功力，有時候我也知道你會擔心司法及法制委員會沒鏡頭，有時候你眼睛會瞄我一下，叫我下去，我怎麼會不知道。所以在這個會期我們就讓司法及法制委員會優雅一點，就繼續把它吵下去，意見不同、不斷地攻防是好事，我也沒看到罵來罵去的人出去像仇人，不會啦、不會啦，過度攻防在司法及法制委員會，過一陣子大家熟了以後，像傅崐萁今天又再說，我連理睬都不想理睬他，他講什麼我都不想聽了！如果當傅崐萁總召講什麼話，我都不想聽，沒有頂他兩句，他回到花蓮去，他會覺得我今天都沒有人捧場，這也不太好。","召委，我是建議羅智強委員先把這個再考慮一下，不要處理這個啦！這個變成好像有點在報復啊！不要牽扯到個人，在司法及法制委員會裡面既然熱熱鬧鬧，就讓它吵得熱熱鬧鬧，司法及法制委員會我們反而是在對尖銳議題的攻防下，讓社會去評價就好了；譬如說，你講話我給你騷擾，你的支持者一定會訐譙我嘛，社會大眾也會覺得莊瑞雄為什麼這麼沒有禮貌，這種事不要在我們司法及法制委員會去限縮這一些，不好啦！國會自主，當然我們也希望有一定的秩序，但是刻意去限縮，那個射程都會很遠，你們這樣提出這個案子，如果在院會去提案，因為國民黨現在是多數，所以在院會裡面，本院中國國民黨長期以來霸占整個院會議場，都用麥克風在那邊嘶吼，先把它放在前面，再來講委員會，我就覺得這個就很好啦，所以沒有這樣吵吵鬧鬧也不像國會啦，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。莊委員，我沒有那麼聰明啦！還會幫大家設計鏡頭，我沒那麼厲害啦。","蔡委員剛剛先舉手。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我附和莊委員，如果在委員會你說麥克風要設置一個靜音系統，是司法委員會有獨立的麥克風，其他委員會是使用無線的，你的意思是其他委員會也要比照這個精神、也要強制把它關起來，每一個委員會都會有用麥克風的狀況，你現在要設置一個靜音系統，到時候像院會開會的時候，國民黨就拿自己的麥克風，這樣我們以後是不是要用遮斷系統，將訊號全部都弄斷，這樣下去會沒完沒了啦！我是覺得像剛才莊委員說的，本來議題就是會討論，討論有時就會有情緒，情緒來了有時會說到開花，本來就是討論的過程啊！總不能你連這個討論過程都要把它精簡掉，都不要讓人討論，我覺得這也不好。過去民進黨在以前多數的時候，也是一樣會有討論，也是會有吵吵鬧鬧的過程，我覺得這都是議場必經的啦！我覺得提出這一案，沒意思啦！要有風度、沒風度，這要看個人啦！大家所有的發言都是會讓社會檢驗的，沒有必要用這個案來封殺任何議事的作為，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主席。我想誠如前面兩位委員所表達的，其實在我們立法院除了委員會中心主義之外，委員會都有各自自己的傳統，這個傳統不是我們在座幾任的任期就可以形成的。我舉例來講，幾位新科委員有沒有發現財政委員會的簽出席跟簽到發言，沒有到8點才在排隊等簽發言的，他們是早上4點來依序，誰在那邊搶得到7點半，就按照那個順序簽發言；簽完發言之後，他們就好整以暇，等8點到各委員會去簽名，如果我們不在財政委員會，我們可以去干預嗎？不會！財政委員會有因為別的委員會沒有這樣，它就改變嗎？沒有。所以其實一個有歷史傳統的國會，慢慢會形成各自的文化，好或不好，你喜歡或不喜歡，它就是一個。我們司法及法制委員會目前的桌上麥克風就跟其他委員會不一樣，在財政委員會過去叫作預算委員會，最常在審預算，審預算時是一大堆人，所以為什麼財政委員會在九樓大禮堂，但是真正審預算的時候，也是誠如剛剛蔡委員說的，就是一人一支手持麥克風跟主席在對談，主席坐在哪裡？那時候主席不會坐在主席臺上，主席都坐在他們現在放法典的地方，為什麼？便於討論。但那時候那麼近，為什麼還要麥克風呢？麥克風是議事人員要收音之用，因為預算審查的時候，每個委員他到底什麼理由、刪除多少、保留多少或怎麼樣，議事人都要很清楚。所以我要強調的，可能大家一時看到的是在議場的議事衝突，或是委員會的程序，那個其實都不是我們國會審議正常的常態，真正的常態就是大家面對面，你一言我一語，很迅速、有效率地討論，主席也只有在會議秩序混亂的時候才會出來整理，我相信吳召委或者本席輪值召委的時候，我都會儘量地讓大家互動討論能順暢。簡單講，會議的主席，你可以說他是交通警察，你可以說他是裁判，其實在籃球場上，有時候大家碰撞一下，裁判不會馬上吹犯規。","所以我是覺得這個案子避免有一種針對性的，如果真的要說針對性，我大概可以理解這個提案提出的原因，就是前天在司法及法制委員會的會議室被朝野協商借來使用，為什麼朝野協商用這裡呢？幾位新科委員跟大家報告一下，過去我們的朝野協商都在議場三樓會議室，那個會議室的格局就是這樣子，每個人面前都有一個麥克風，但是為什麼要移來這裡呢？因為那裡的空間狹小，這裡反而是所有的委員會中具有桌前麥克風又有相對大的空間，不然大家去看看議場後面三樓的會議室，那是非常小啊！以前在做預算協商的時候，部會都要散到議場底下的休息室去排列，那為什麼不到九樓大禮堂？因為九樓大禮堂沒有這樣的桌上麥克風。所以其實這樣的演變，讓政黨朝野協商跑到利用紅樓302會議室是有這個原因的，大家不要因為一時的議事的互動就做出這樣的決定，不然誠如委員說的，難道無線麥克風你都可以裝靜音嗎？這樣會讓人家覺得有爭議性。剛好這個提案內容，其實我也很想就教於提案委員，本來他沒有加，他後來加了一個什麼字？加了「維護國會形象及品質」，我認同我們的會場要有秩序，要由主席來維持，但是國會形象跟品質不是靠這個，可以把國會議員任意地驅逐出場嗎？可以不經討論就要逕付表決嗎？這些才是社會關切的國會形象內容，在我們這個會議室當中，每位委員都可以出席，包括秘密會議都有一個限制上符合的要求，但是委員要發言，當然我們要尊重，由主席來裁決，但是有時候在一些會議的進行情況，你一言我一語，當然會有一點點混亂，但是只要議事能夠進行，大家不要採取過當的手段去造成這樣針對性的情況。","我再次強調，其他的委員會雖然沒有桌上型的麥克風，但是都有無線麥克風，它能裝靜音嗎？第二、目前這樣的配置，剛好可以補我們朝野協商議場3樓空間不足的情況，你要把那樣的情況放到這裡來，我想包括在場過去在第9屆我們黃總召、黃國昌委員代表時代力量的時候，我們看到在那裡，不管是蘇院長還是游院長，都儘可能地讓每一個政黨的代表、參與協商代表暢所欲言，從來沒有在議場後面3樓的會議室上去使用靜音的裝置，頂多如果大家太熱烈了，主席會說我們休息一下，以前都說到外面移車，沒有啦！沒有移車啦！就到外面去舒緩一下，再繼續討論，這是民主議會的常態，請大家不要做過度的、針對性的解決，以上建議。"],["主席：是，對，羅委員先的。"],["羅委員智強：我來這個台就是示範一下，基本上不要講得這麼嚴重啦！還有這兩個麥克風在，我講的是桌上型，第一個、如果真的照鍾佳濱委員講得這麼傳統、這麼神聖，這兩個台也不該放上來嘛！不是嗎？這兩個台是我們共同決議放上來的啊！我們提議你們同意，柯建銘總召當時也是認為說怎麼會把這兩個質詢台拆掉，他也不認同，他直接講的啊！所以那次基本上是無異議通過把這兩個台放上來的，所以我要講的重點是什麼？你剛剛講無線麥克風，拜託，我們到別的委員會，你平常有看到無線麥克風拿出來在質詢的時候嗎？在桌子上、座位上講嗎？第三個、我要跟你講，大家都是到備詢台上跟質詢台上講的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：法案審查跟預算審查。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，預算審查一回事啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：法案審查有啊！"],["羅委員智強：我先跟你講嘛！至少本人發現其他委員會沒有桌上型麥克風，也沒有影響到議事跟詢答的模式。第四個、我要跟你講，很簡單啦！設個總開關而已嘛！也不是……今天說真的，國民黨是一直很客氣啦，你們每次按著麥克風，主席……就要在那邊吵半天，你們真的有聽主席裁示說主席准發言才發言嗎？沒有啦！我跟你講，自己上來這邊台上講話，我覺得清清楚楚，主席就可以指定誰上來啊！兩支麥克風都在，開個總開關，也沒把麥克風拆掉，也歡迎今天黨團協商來借302，302總開關開了，大家就可以在那邊討論啦，用桌上麥克風，預算審查需要，一樣麥克風總開關一開，一樣可以討論啦！所以換言之沒有你們講的那個樣子，只是今天鑑於過去我們這將近3個月來，我看到司法法制委員會獨樹一幟，跟其他委員會完全不相同的作法，你講無線麥克風可以啊，無線麥克風一樣比照大家有，我們也有啊，但別的委員會桌上型麥克風平常是沒有的，我們也就設個靜音總開關而已，很簡單，就是讓我們的議事可以更順暢，否則說真的，我直接講我承認好不好？鍾委員，我直接承認啦，我覺得我們的柯總召每天按著那個麥克風心海羅盤，我真的有點受不了啦！不是完全不讓他心海羅盤啦，到上面那個台上一樣繼續心海羅盤沒關係，所有人看過這一段時間的直播，都是我們總召多少時間按著麥克風不放啊？所以拜託，讓我們總召能夠有一個莊嚴的心海羅盤發表地，所以可以到上面台上去講啦，所以我的主張還是很簡單，就是開一個總開關，平常我們在委員會審案的時候、沒有需要的時候，要上來就上這個質詢台跟備詢台；有需要的時候，黨團協商要借302，我覺得很好啊！桌上型麥克風就可以打開來讓大家討論，沒有那麼了不起啦！"],["主席：謝謝，沈委員。"],["沈委員發惠：主席，這個案子看起來是沒什麼啦，只是我是這樣建議大家，如果麥克風這種問題弄到等一下要表決，在司法法制委員會說實在是滿難看的，其實剛才羅智強委員所講的，因為你可能去別的委員會都是只有去發言，發言完之後每個委員會都還有很多討論，他們沒有桌上型麥克風很麻煩，每天的臨時提案，這個要講話、那個要請行政機關說明，麥克風傳來傳去，並不是每一個委員自己都有一支，傳來傳去耶！我們現在司法及法制委員會有設置桌上型麥克風，這基本上是一個進步，使我認為每一個委員會都應該要設桌上型麥克風，便於國會議員在這裡發言。不過現在談的是靜音裝置，我就覺得說像這樣子的問題，其實整個議事的過程裡面，剛才羅智強委員說我很受不了你們這樣一直發言，但是我跟你講，作為多數黨，因為你們表決會贏，所以你們就應該要忍受少數黨在整個審查過程中，所有在議事規則手段之下的杯葛，我覺得這個是天經地義的，這是民權初步，這個也不到議事規則的程度。這個東西你說做成決議，這個是我們立法院自己的規定，我們立法院議場安全維護管理要點第七條，它就明定會議時委員不得攜帶麥克風……進入會場。但是我們每次院會，國民黨團就是……到目前為止只有國民黨團帶麥克風進去議會，自從這條規定定了以後，只有國民黨團……國民黨還曾經團跑到民進黨黨團來，因為我們委員看不下去，去把你們麥克風偷搬回黨團，還去告我們民進黨的委員說偷你們的麥克風，所以連明定的規定……如果國民黨團以後，傅總召在這裡可以代表國民黨在這裡宣示說以後我發誓我國民黨改邪歸正，以後絕對不會再自己帶麥克風進去議場，那我覺得我們就來規範所有每個委員會的麥克風怎麼使用，裝一個靜音裝置不是說什麼多大的問題，我只是覺得在這裡表決這個，我認為不妥啦！難看啦！好像我在這邊如果提個提案，說我在司法及法制委員會，有的委員發言的音量實在是大到我受不了，所以我們要設置一個裝置，如果委員講話聲量超過多少分貝就自動斷電，那不是很好笑嗎？我如果在那邊講說我再提一個案，請我們委員不要在委員會裡面隨地吐痰，那也不是很好笑嗎？所以我是覺得說這種案子，我們不要這種案子還進入表決，我們大家談一談、撤掉，再來……你們要表決也可以啦，但是很難看而已。"],["傅委員崐萁：主席，剛剛各位講的我都同意啦！但是難得沈發惠委員說要有次序，今天我們很難得，民進黨立委嘴裡講出議場要有次序，真的很難得啊！民進黨立委終於講出要有次序，這不容易啊！我們就是因為要有次序，所以才提了這個臨時提案，我要特別表達從第4屆、第5屆、第6屆、第7屆、第8屆立委，民進黨連鐵鍊都拿進來了，飛天遁地什麼都有啦！還有把所有立委的椅子都堆起來，然後把每一個門都鎖上，我都親眼看到堆在那裡……"],["沈委員發惠：上一屆是國民黨……"],["傅委員崐萁：你看到沒有？你在講話，人家都沒有插你的嘴！對不對？一個基本的尊重嘛，有嗎？所以我要特別強調，這一屆議場要怎麼樣做次序維護，剛剛沈發惠委員講得很好，我們第一次朝野協商訂定不能帶東西進來，訂了以後也沒有人再帶進來了，我不曉得現在concern什麼東西，所以當時在這裡講說麥克風不能拿進議場，從此就沒有人再拿了，也都照大家的協議完成。我要特別強調一個，如果今天可以因為怎麼樣就不要有次序，那以後院會質詢就不是30分鐘、15分鐘了，我講到我高興再下來，院會質詢可以問3個小時、5個小時嗎？不是充分表達嗎？當然要有一個次序嘛，所以我要特別強調，這個會期到現在，經過協商以後，國民黨完全照協商規則走，我要特別強調這個，是不是我們就……"],["主席：因為兩邊完全沒有共識，那就直接表決。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有啊……"],["主席：不是，你再講還是沒有共識啊，你們剛剛這麼多人講了，再講還是沒共識嘛。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我都還沒說，你讓傅總召先講，我比他早舉手耶！"],["沈委員發惠：他還沒有講過。"],["主席：不是，因為兩邊沒有共識，大家就發洩情緒而已啊！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我連發言都……"],["沈委員發惠：讓大家對案子表示意見，這是最基本的嘛。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席要有耐性，當召委真的要有耐性。"],["沈委員發惠：讓我們委員針對這個案子表達意見，這是基本的嘛，每個人至少表達一次，對不對？"],["吳委員思瑤：我連發言都不行嗎？"],["主席：如果是這樣，吳委員你可不可以趕快總結？不要再一直重複同一個議題了，我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間。"],["吳委員思瑤：我覺得在司法及法制委員會最大的問題是，永遠要閹割別人講話的權利，現在連麥克風都要消音，這件事情茲事體大，它涉及的才是不折不扣的國會尊嚴，大家都看過英國國會開會吧？英國國會上下議會，我們講下議會，議員坐著，非常近的距離，他們可以針對議案激烈地進行爭執，彼此大聲地呼喊、對話，那是英國的民主，民主是什麼？就是大家可以講他想講的話，在國會殿堂表達他的主張，我真的很難以置信。原本之前羅智強委員似乎有要提一個案，說要沒收麥克風，後來好像是沒有提，還是沒有討論到，那今天轉了一個彎，就是麥克風還是可以設在這裡，因為我想羅委員也知道，這個辦公室除了平常我們司法及法制委員會開會之外，也會有朝野協商或其他會議要使用，所以換湯不換藥，今天的提案內容改為把它消音，但是任何一個議事的進行，都是考驗主席是否公正處理，像我剛剛也要嚴正地抗議啊，我明明比傅總召還要早舉手，我跟沈發惠委員一起舉手的時候，您就會略過，然後讓傅總召先發言。如果我要抗議您剛剛的主持不公，我唯一的方法也是按下麥克風向你現場抗議，但是我隱忍，所以主席是一個議事運作能不能夠維持秩序，讓大家都能夠不去動氣，不要有情緒的那個最重要的關鍵人物，叫做會議的主席。","好，你今天要設一個消音器，請問什麼時候、誰可以決定消音？這樣子的權限，就是把國會委員發聲的權利給消音、給沒收，這件事情茲事體大，這是臺灣、中華民國國會非常嚴肅的課題，可以因為委員的不耐，委員不喜歡聽誰的心海羅盤就消音？我不認為柯總召說的事情不值得其他委員去借鏡，那是他三十多年國會的歷練。大家都要坐在這裡去自我內化自己的修養，民主就是不同的意見，你必須遵守，必須聆聽。等一下，主席，我還在發言，可以請您坐下來嗎？剛剛前面的委員也都發言很長，好嗎？"],["主席：我站著聽你講，好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：我怕您腿痠啦，好不好？"],["主席：好，你繼續。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以主席是一個主持議事的重要靈魂人物，而且我更要說，今天在這個會議室，桌上的這一臺麥克風，它所代表的意義，不只是坐在這裡的國會議員他所行使的民意，更重要的是，這個麥克風關係到議事人員在後續的文字紀錄，它可以被錄音，能夠清楚地、精確地記錄。如果那場會議當中有什麼樣的法案、文字或是預算的數字聽不清楚，他可以recall，他可以再去聽，確保所有的議事紀錄是精準無誤的，讓每一個人的發言都是精準呈現的。"],["羅委員智強：我來示範一下干擾好不好？我來示範啦，我示範干擾，真的，我來示範干擾。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以它的目的正是讓議事人員能夠來做紀錄。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得這個麥克風放在桌上的型式，在這邊就可以好好地掌握了。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二個，主席，現在就要考驗主席主持的功力了。"],["羅委員智強：反正對方講話，我也講話，聲音就吵成一團。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在就要考驗主席主持的功力了。"],["羅委員智強：然後不管柯建銘講話、莊瑞雄講話，很多人講話，大家吵成一團，然後所有的麥克風大家全部都打開來。來，思銘兄，我幫你按一下，你也講個話。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在就要考驗會議的靈魂人物，主席主持的功力了。"],["羅委員智強：大家一起講話嘛，對不對？然後我們現在講到海枯石爛、天荒地老，各自表述……"],["吳委員思瑤：吳宗憲召委，沒有主持的功力嗎？"],["林委員思銘：議事規則，有秩序的發言……"],["羅委員智強：比方說臨時提案第1案。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在這一段發言是誰在干擾發言？現在正是在考驗主席主持的功力，沒有關係，主席您要踐踏您的職權，我沒有異議。主席，這是我發言的時間，請網路上廣大的……"],["羅委員智強：法務部今年4月24日跟5月2日，就「如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類制作」議題，向本委員會提報，藉由「110到112年三年期之檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統」建置，可利用AI系統1.生成酒駕類型書類初稿；2.製作詐欺案件被害人……"],["主席：OK，好了，結束喔。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在進行發言，好嗎？"],["主席：沒有，先等一下，大家都先等一下。"],["羅委員智強：我就是示範一下……"],["主席：大家都先冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，你示範完了，可以讓我繼續發言嗎？我沒有動怒，我保持風度喔。"],["主席：大家先冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，這是考驗主席的主持能耐，現在是誰在干擾本席的發言？現在是誰在……"],["羅委員智強：示範……"],["主席：各位委員，我們現在先冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，這是要考驗主席主持的功力，我剛剛還沒有論述完，好嗎？"],["主席：對啦，我就說我們現在都冷靜一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，我還在發言中，我還在發言中，吳宗憲主席，這是考驗您主持的功力。"],["羅委員智強：召開公聽會，有學者專家……"],["主席：吳委員……"],["吳委員思瑤：那我可以繼續嗎？"],["主席：等一下。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我可以繼續嗎？"],["主席：我跟你講。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在發言中。"],["主席：我們再講一次啦。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在發言中。"],["主席：我們會議中是不是說，當有人在發言的時候……"],["吳委員思瑤：我還在發言，是。"],["主席：其他人不要按麥克風來插嘴，至少我們先這樣好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以、可以、可以。"],["主席：我順便跟吳思瑤委員說明一件事情。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["主席：並沒有所謂的什麼先讓傅總召講，你再講，我跟你講，我儘量，因為雙方、正反兩方……"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦，沒關係。"],["主席：一個講完，再換一個。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。"],["主席：我跟你講，一個講完，再換一個，我覺得我的做法是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：每次主席到最後就要拼大聲。"],["主席：不是拼大聲啦，因為你們每個人都要講，我要比麥克風更大聲來告訴大家。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是要拼大聲，你的麥克風就拿掉，你那個叫做噪音啦！"],["主席：我覺得很簡單，就是一邊講完，讓另外一邊也講。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，沒關係，好，我接受。"],["主席：這樣是公平。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我接受主席的裁示。"],["主席：不是說單純一定要沈委員完就是吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：那我可以繼續嗎？好，我接受您的裁示。"],["莊委員瑞雄：小聲一點，小聲一點啦，吵死了！"],["主席：我是要跟吳委員說明你剛剛心中的疑問。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，calm down, please calm down！"],["羅委員智強：主席在主持，不就是你們拿著麥克風在干擾嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：好，主席，我還在發言當中，我繼續發言喔！所以我說我們桌上的這一個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席不是在主持啦，他是在跟其他委員發飆，這就不對嘛。"],["主席：你們到底幾個人要用麥克風講話？"],["羅委員智強：很抱歉，我不能認同喔！"],["主席：你們從剛剛到現在……"],["羅委員智強：我還是要用麥克風來繼續講，不管你們誰在講……"],["主席：我希望一個人按麥克風就好。"],["羅委員智強：因為很方便啊！我忍不住啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：繼續……"],["羅委員智強：像柯建銘跟吳思瑤都忍不住經常按啊！"],["主席：一個人拿麥克風講話就好了，羅委員也先……"],["羅委員智強：對不對？我們繼續按著麥克風，那不用結束了嘛！非常好。"],["主席：好，那個……"],["吳委員思瑤：我繼續發言。"],["羅委員智強：吳思瑤站上去，我就不按了。"],["主席：現在是吳思瑤委員發言，請大家都不要開麥克風，我們讓吳委員發言。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我發言。所以這一臺麥克風在桌上，它實際上是方便我們的議事人員能夠精準記錄任何一個預算數字跟法條文字的討論過程，它必須精準呈現，所以這個收音是有必要的。它是一個系統，是方便議事人員工作的功能之一。功能之二，也是讓線上所有的人一起聆聽，現在透明公開對於國會開會的議事程序是必要的，所以要讓國會能夠真正地透明公開，有的時候如果沒有透過麥克風的發言，在收音的系統、在網路直播的呈現上，完全沒有辦法聽見委員在爭執的內容、議案的討論是什麼。所以如果要踐行國會的透明公開，我們需要這一個重要的麥克風，它是協助每一個民意代表、國會議員發聲，也是最重要的聲音、民主、論述、辯論的武器，不可以這樣來沒收，它不是只是一個形而下的麥克風，它是形而上的，國會議員基於民意質詢、職權的行使，所以我要跟主席……","我個人是完全沒有辦法接受這樣的提案，基於我們議事紀錄的必要，基於對於國會透明公開的必要，更基於確保每一個國會議員的職責，履行監督、質詢的必要。更重要的我要說，今天羅智強委員的這個提案，它是涉及一個國會議員的自律，很好，委員是不是能夠做到自律，我們可以交換意見、彼此約束，但是如果今天羅智強委員在司法法制委會提出這樣一個臨時提案，那我要問，同樣是關乎國會議員的自律，也就是民進黨提出的國會改革方案的議事規則、me too的條款，國民黨不給我們審查，那是攸關國會議員的自律，為什麼民進黨提的國會改革方案議事規則裡面，有關保密、洩密的相關刑責、相關的自律行為，國民黨不讓我們半個條文進入實質討論？今天就提案論提案，羅智強委員的提案是要求國會議員的自律，我支持自律可以討論，但是為什麼你提的這個要沒收麥克風消音裝置的提案，可以在這裡被討論？但是民進黨的國會改革方案，攸關權責相符的國會議員的自律，半個條文都不讓我們審查？這就是現在這個失靈、失序的國會最嚴肅的議題，如果今天要討論這個提案，要透過表決的話，那是不是也讓民主進步黨的職權行使法、議事規則，乃至於立法委員行為法，同樣都可以在這裡，像現在一樣，大家輪流站上發言臺去表述他的意見，透過討論匯聚共識，如果真的不行，要表決，也要經過這個對人民、對社會論述的過程。","主席現在還在講手機，所以我可以繼續說，這樣一個提案，萬萬不可，這一個麥克風，它不是一個形體物體的麥克風，它代表的是113個國會議員行使憲法賦予的國會職權，所以我反對這樣的議案，我也認為不應當進入表決，大家不需要……自律的行為如果這樣，請讓我們審查我們的國會改革的立法委員行為法跟議事規則，同樣都在討論國會議員的自律行為，好嗎？"],["主席：我覺得既然雙方的認知差那麼遠，我就直接進行表決好了，而且我覺得……沒有，我跟你講，我這邊決議直接進行表決……"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正動議……"],["主席：你要提什麼修正動議？"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正文字的動議啊！怎麼不可以？"],["莊委員瑞雄：怎麼會是你說要表決就表決呢？"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正動議可以提出來啊！"],["主席：不是啦！我跟你講啦！既然大家覺得說主持不公嘛！對不對？我解釋你們又聽不進去，那就直接表決吧！這樣最清楚嘛！少數服從多數啊！大家就來表決啊！那我就依照議事規則進行表決。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你要停止討論的時候要先跟人家說一下，不是你主席說要怎樣就不給人家說……"],["謝委員龍介：主席……"],["莊委員瑞雄：人家謝龍介還沒說耶！人家不做布袋戲……如果我在講話，謝龍介拿布袋戲出來演，我一定停下來給你拍手，這麼厲害！"],["謝委員龍介：小金剛、小金剛，你實在好厲害！","主席，我對於會議的一個建議，因為這個案當然也不是敏感啦！那議事規則的過程，包括國會自律，每個議場都一樣，全國大小議會都一樣，但是也都各有道理，應該先休息，其實讓提案人跟他們召集人，我認為還有協商的空間，大家可以緩一下，為什麼？因為這兩個發言臺不是可以消音嗎？對不對？這兩個發言臺是可以消音的嘛！主席上面有一個消音器，所以是不是大家協商一下，也許可以觀察，也許可以有另外的作為，緩一下。剛剛提案人也願意……大家可以就這個國會自主裡面……其實言論自由當然很重要，可是這兩個多月來，民進黨確實干擾的次數比較多，我在這裡看得很清楚，民進黨少數干擾多數的比較多，所以我建議先休息5分鐘，讓他們去協商。"],["主席：有關這部分，我這邊先宣告一下，今天不是說我講話大聲，因為沒辦法，我不喊大聲，大家聽不到我在講什麼，大家一團亂，比國小班會還不如啦！請大家回去研讀立法委員行為法，你在開會的時候，你就要服從主席的約制嘛！但沒有人甩我啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為你亂主持啊！"],["主席：不用講那麼多，今天如果我有違反任何議事規定的話，那你們該怎麼處理就怎麼處理，今天主席主持對或不對，不是你莊瑞雄一個人講就算啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你講到我，我要發言了。"],["主席：不用，不需要，現在休息。","休息（11時56分）","繼續開會（12時）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。上午會議時間進行至所有登記發言委員詢答完畢為止。強哥是要補充？"],["羅委員智強：首先，剛剛我們跟鍾佳濱委員稍微聊了一下，我覺得也認同啦！很多我們國會議事的討論，大家都在進行當中，也可以做調整嘛！一旦形成新的默契跟共識，大家就執行，不一定要做設備端的調整。我舉個例子，剛剛你們一直在談到院會的時候，國民黨拿麥克風，我就被做新聞的那個，我想如果你們有看到，我當天就道歉了，而且我就承諾我再也不會拿麥克風，因為跟各位坦白講，我並不知道那個規定，所以我願意認錯，然後願意改進，後來國民黨再也沒有拿麥克風進到院會，這一點我想要澄清一下。","但是我覺得這就是一個好的範示嘛！把規矩訂立之後，有的就是透過大家的協商默契，來改變我們接下來的議場文化，因為剛剛佳濱召委說還是讓大家用自律的方式，我覺得這一點我能接受啦！我也認同。所以換言之，我也是希望經過這個提案，以後大家桌上型的這個麥克風，你要你要講可以，先經過主席同意啦！先舉個手說：「主席，我要發言。」主席說yes之後你再去按這個麥克風，如果是這樣經過主席同意的話，大家都能夠自我約束，我覺得沒有問題啊！但是如果不能夠自我約束，大家如果還是像過去這三個月，有忍不住的衝動想按這個麥克風，到時候再來提這個臨時提案，也來得及嘛！所以這一點我覺得佳濱委員跟我提的意見，我覺得我能接受啦！所以今天我就是把我的那個提案延後，先往後延後，但不限期延後，也許我們的文化就建立了嘛！那也拜託我們所有的委員，包括我自己，主席沒有裁示之前，不要按這個麥克風，讓主席方便來去做議事上的主持跟進行，那我就先把我的案子撤回、延後。以上。"],["主席：謝謝，撤回，是不是？延後，暫不處理，OK。","好，第二案的部分經過各位委員協商溝通後，臨時提案第二案就暫不處理。","我們回過頭處理臨時提案的第一案，請問修正文字後的提案第一案，各位有拿到了吧？請問就這個修正後文字有無異議？好，沒有異議的話，臨時提案第一案就依照修正後文字通過。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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誰不該特赦 憲法規定他是總統的特別權利 我也沒有辦法預判市長 但是我想在這邊 因為未來你會乘他的命做原意所以到底總統 我們現在就很好奇 這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想 最主要的原因 可能就基於說他是前總統他是民進黨的創黨大佬"},{"start":166.281,"end":193.376,"text":"說蔡總統就在這個下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮就是認為說這一次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案"},{"start":194.136,"end":218.555,"text":"另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的司法案件正在法院審理中了"},{"start":219.275,"end":234.708,"text":"但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎法務部您的看法您認為這樣子"},{"start":240.461,"end":267.807,"text":"有正當性嗎?一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦?站在法務部你是追求公平正義的一個立場你認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人、罪犯你認為給他特赦對得起我們這個社會對得起這個國家對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?"},{"start":270.741,"end":299.473,"text":"各位報告 這個問題剛剛 如同我剛剛所回覆委員的特赦它還是總統的特權權利好啦 次長 我想我也不為難你啦其實我很想告訴民進黨的這個的朋友們在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前蔡總統您要去特赦陳水扁真的不服社會的期待啦我們尊重你的特赦權但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡啦"},{"start":300.615,"end":328.371,"text":"那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他"},{"start":330.62,"end":354.742,"text":"這個真的從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長我不要欺騙你們啦現在停審的四個案如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦"},{"start":355.748,"end":364.183,"text":"不要再遮遮掩掩了我剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛"},{"start":369.546,"end":394.716,"text":"陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權"},{"start":396.041,"end":421.361,"text":"所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統"},{"start":422.202,"end":442.584,"text":"您才來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨 針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊"},{"start":451.965,"end":465.459,"text":"秘書長這不是個案啦我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦您本身也是擔任過法官法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛"},{"start":466.687,"end":478.372,"text":"您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個啪啪照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啓審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義喔拋在腦後了啦"},{"start":496.508,"end":504.369,"text":"只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下"},{"start":506.82,"end":532.71,"text":"我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑"},{"start":534.464,"end":536.166,"text":"以最近一次的2007年為例,複合減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄。"},{"start":549.519,"end":564.351,"text":"請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有五次的減刑每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣您大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監鎖人滿為患"},{"start":573.506,"end":591.702,"text":"這是一個附屬的一個效應但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些犯罪者希望他能夠趕快重新做人以起自新"},{"start":593.164,"end":611.286,"text":"所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦、特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員你所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統五次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點"},{"start":612.287,"end":632.345,"text":"他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎"},{"start":633.353,"end":635.155,"text":"法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息"},{"start":648.933,"end":672.499,"text":"主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天"},{"start":674.795,"end":695.666,"text":"下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,涉免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做涉免的決定,他不見得要交研議。他自己直接做就...對,他涉免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。"},{"start":696.417,"end":721.294,"text":"那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?各位報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?"},{"start":722.611,"end":743.628,"text":"假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須啦對不是因所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧"},{"start":744.429,"end":744.749,"text":"好,謝謝,以上。"}]}},{"id":"152522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0a42fe66039dc1248ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45627239ac86ab38cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:52:00 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11:04:58","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":778,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:04:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:52:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時52分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長好。關於參與WHA這個部分，今天已經是5月15號，基本上是不是已經確定今年無法出席WHA？2024年WHA舉辦的期間是5月27號到6月1號，根據過去的經驗，在這麼短的時間內，不可能再受邀了。當然，過去我們採取的補救方法是臺灣代表團在場外和其他的國家舉辦雙邊會談，例如2017年總共有59場，另外2018年有60場，2019年有71場，請問今年雙邊的會談有幾場？"],["吳部長釗燮：因為現在還在推動當中，所以會有幾場我現在沒有辦法跟大家說明。委員剛剛提的沒有錯，就是我們會利用其他國家的高階訪團都在日內瓦的機會與其他國家舉行雙邊會談；此外還有一種方式，就是也曾經進行多邊的workshop，這些對我們與其他國家的衛生合作關係非常有幫助，我們會持續的來推動。"],["黃委員仁：今天我為什麼要談到這個？第一個，我們在2017年之前，在馬英九總統的時代就曾經參加過WHA，也能夠以觀察員的身分進入到WHO，比如說像我們原住民、少數民族在聯合國裡面就有觀察員的身分。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["黃委員仁：所以這樣一個這麼珍貴且能夠凸顯我們臺灣能夠在世界衛生組織裡面發光發熱，可是2017年之後至今就無法進入這樣一個大會，當然在裡面各國替我們講了很多話，對我們國內都是講一些宣導的立場，當然是好事，可是我們為什麼不借用美國，因為目前我們執政黨一直是親美的角度，是不是可以請教它，由大國跟我們中共來對談，你們認為是因為中共的阻撓，那是不是要借用美國這麼大的一個國家來跟中共對談，是不是讓我們有機會重新加入WHA這個組織，讓我們臺灣進入到世界衛生組織的立場，而不是一直採用雙邊的會談跟會議，你來回答。"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員提出的問題，這個的確是非常的重要，美國在過去十多年來一直都有跟我們就國際組織參與的議題進行對話，在對話之後也具體的提出一些方式來協助我們，最近這一次就是針對2758號決議案有很重要的發言，但是將我們的國際參與交由其他的國家來幫我們協商的話，我想這個可能必須要去重新思考。參與國際組織是我們政府要代表我們臺灣人民的事情，我們的這個權益不應該交由其他的國家來替我們施行，我想我們的權益是掌握在我們的手中，我們臺灣……"],["黃委員仁：我們的權益……現在就是因為沒有辦法進入，所以我們也要借力使力啊！對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們最主要的方向，在這邊也跟委員報告，就是我們希望能夠吸引更多的國家來支持我們參與世界衛生組織，我們吸引到的國家為我們去聯合進洽，或者是為我們發言，或者是為我們寫聯名信函交給世界衛生組織的秘書處，現在支持我們的人數不斷地增加，而且他的層級不斷地升高，這個就是我們努力的成果。"],["黃委員仁：這是國人關切而且非常重視看待的……"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道、我知道。"],["黃委員仁：那我希望下一個林佳龍部長能夠努力，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。謝謝委員。"],["黃委員仁：有關於外交部告我們立法委員徐巧芯委員一事，本席非常不解，部長，提告國會的立法委員是一個重大的事件，因為目前外交部控告徐巧芯是有關於我方與捷克簽訂的一千萬美金援助烏克蘭，其中指定30%到40%之間要採購臺灣的醫材，有圖利特定廠商的嫌疑。外交部在5月7號赴北檢提告徐巧芯委員洩密，北檢已列入他字案。剛剛徐巧芯送了蜜餞，我們外交部裡面的密件則有兩種，第一個是國家的密件，第二個是公務員重要的密件，但是它列入在什麼樣的密件我不曉得，你們的密件向來都是密件，這個是不解的地方。","另外一個我要特別講的就是，是不是這個是指示由法條司來提告徐巧芯？另外一個我特別要講的是，行政部門控告立法委員，這是行政權透過司法權企圖迫使立法委員限縮監督的權力，這可說是中華民國史上第一個、第一次在民主國家極為駭人聽聞的事件，請部長務必講清楚控告的完整決策過程，這樣未來若要追究責任或要論功行賞才知道要找誰。另外，我特別要講的是，行政部門控告立法委員是一個大事，無論結果如何，我這個地方特別要講的，未來產生重大的影響，已經告了，我們藉此機會來明確的歸屬是誰的責任。這件事未來可能有三種結果會發生，第一個，徐巧芯委員可能敗訴，第二個外交部可能敗訴，第三，外交部可能會撤告，但是請問一下部長，如果徐巧芯委員在過程中敗訴，他必須要負法律責任，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["黃委員仁：好。"],["吳部長釗燮：因為違反相關刑法的規定。"],["黃委員仁：如果是外交部敗訴的話，誰要負政治責任？你來回答。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是一個假設性的問題……"],["黃委員仁：不是假設性。"],["吳部長釗燮：不過要跟……"],["黃委員仁：剛剛我已經問你了，如果徐委員在被提告的過程裡面敗訴了，是由他負法律責任……"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下……"],["黃委員仁：你剛剛說是……"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下……"],["黃委員仁：外交部敗訴是假設性的，沒有錯，但是如果敗訴的話，你們要怎麼樣懲處？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於未來的狀況，如果裁判的結果對告發的一方不利，我相信到時候……因為告發的是外交部，外交部應該會做這一些適當的討論。但是委員剛剛所說的事情我也必須澄清，我自己也是政治學者，我拿到政治學博士，知道行政機構跟立法機構之間的關係是checks and balances，是對立而相互制衡的關係，不是永遠由立法部門制衡行政部門。在這種關係之下，大家要彼此相互尊重。如果我們……"],["黃委員仁：今天你是在立法院備詢……"],["吳部長釗燮：對，這是一個相互制衡的過程。"],["黃委員仁：你到立法院備詢，但是你對國會的立法委員提告的立場……"],["吳部長釗燮：那是因……"],["黃委員仁：你創造了歷史上駭人聽聞的一個問題……"],["吳部長釗燮：如果違反刑法第一百三十二條的規定……"],["黃委員仁：剛剛我問……"],["吳部長釗燮：我們沒有處理的話，可能受到影響的是我們的國家利益。"],["黃委員仁：你不要把這個爛攤子交給未來的外交部長，讓林佳龍接這個爛攤子……"],["吳部長釗燮：這個不是爛攤子。"],["黃委員仁：因為這個事情明明期刊裡面都已經彰顯，說用1,000萬美金援助烏克蘭，這是事實。我們希望在國會良性表達人民的訴求……"],["吳部長釗燮：我們也很希望是良性的。"],["黃委員仁：而不是製造國會跟行政部門之間尷尬的場面……"],["吳部長釗燮：對，但是如果……"],["黃委員仁：把問題丟給下一個外交部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：如果一個文件是機密的，把這個文件秀出來的話，很明顯違反刑法第一百三十二條的規定。我們行政部門──外交部是受害者，可能我們的國家利益也會受到損害，對於這一件事情，外交部沒有不處理的空間。"],["黃委員仁：你們現在不要混淆國人的視聽。"],["吳部長釗燮：我沒有混淆視聽，把那些秀出來給記者看就涉及刑法第一百三十二條。"],["黃委員仁：我們國會的立法委員是由人民投票選出來，站在這個舞臺上質詢你們。有沒有公平、公正？這是國人看待的。你們是專業的行政部門，不要混淆視聽。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有混淆視聽。"],["黃委員仁：你對立法委員提告，這是重大的一個政治事件，也是重大的事件。剛剛我才問你，我一再講，如果你們敗訴是誰要承擔？是你承擔，還是林佳龍承擔？你要回答這個議題。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個假設性的問題……"],["黃委員仁：不是假設性，剛剛我已經問你了，如果徐巧芯立法委員敗訴的時候，我問你，你說是，要負法律責任，這是一個答案。現在我反問你，外交部萬一敗訴的時候，是林佳龍負責，還是你負責？這個要跟國人交代嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：也跟委員報告一下，外交部討論像這種把密件秀出來給記者看的做法，這個很明確是違反刑法第一百三十二條的規定。我們認為在這個事情上面，檢察官或者是法官應該會依照客觀的情形處理。有關於事情的內容，我們不適合在這裡發言。"],["黃委員仁：如果以密件來講，依什麼法條對徐巧芯委員提告？依什麼法條是一個疑問、問號。依什麼法條？從哪裡的法源？第二個，剛剛我一直問你，如果你們外交部敗訴是誰要承擔？是林佳龍承擔嗎？你來回答。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是假設性的問題，外交部如果在這個議題上……"],["黃委員仁：你還在混淆國人的視聽……"],["吳部長釗燮：這個已經是公訴的狀況，地檢署已經take over。"],["黃委員仁：你在混淆視聽。"],["吳部長釗燮：我沒有混淆視聽。謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請洪委員申翰上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.90846875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.93784375,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.57471875,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.556593750000001,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.40846875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.285968750000002,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.30596875,"end":68.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.47596875,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.52659375,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.92721875000001,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.01159375,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.07909375000001,"end":105.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.76971875000001,"end":113.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.92284375000001,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.30346875,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.59534375,"end":205.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.19721875000002,"end":205.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.21409375000002,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.41659375,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.61909375000002,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.37971875000002,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":260.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.51346875,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.54721875,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.64846875,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.74971875,"end":289.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.05346875000004,"end":294.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.78284375000004,"end":292.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.43659375000004,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.73596875000004,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.85784375000003,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.19909375000003,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.27784375000005,"end":315.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.81284375,"end":349.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.73159375,"end":380.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.84909375,"end":424.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.46221875000003,"end":447.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.75846875,"end":449.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.01971875000004,"end":450.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.28534375000004,"end":454.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.04846875000004,"end":455.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.49971875000006,"end":469.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.54409375000006,"end":470.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.18096875000003,"end":473.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.02034375000005,"end":479.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.22596875000005,"end":486.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.93034375,"end":487.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.43159375000005,"end":497.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.86971875,"end":493.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.22784375000003,"end":496.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.38346875,"end":498.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.95721875000004,"end":507.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.02346875,"end":507.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.76596875,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.78284375000004,"end":507.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.79971875,"end":560.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.3403437500001,"end":580.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.52971875,"end":563.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.8872187500001,"end":569.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.5234687500001,"end":576.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.71721875,"end":583.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.59409375,"end":606.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.07846875,"end":590.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.38909375,"end":597.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.65346875,"end":628.28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shop也曾經來進行那這些對我們跟其他國家的這種衛生合作的關係是非常有幫助的我們會持續的來推動"},{"start":97.27,"end":117.458,"text":"今天為什麼要談到這個第一個我們在2017年之前在馬英九總統的時代就曾經參加過我們WHA也進入到這個WHO能夠再進入到觀察員的一個身份"},{"start":118.527,"end":145.46,"text":"比如說像我們原住民少數民族在聯合國裡面就是有觀察員的身份所以這樣子一個這麼珍貴的能夠吐血我們在台灣能夠在世界衛生組織裡面能夠發光發熱可是2017年之後到至今就已經沒有這樣的一個進入到這樣的一個大會"},{"start":146.44,"end":175.611,"text":"那是不是在當然各國裡面替我們講了很多的話對我們國內都是講一些宣導的一個立場當然是好事可是我們為什麼不借用美國因為我們目前我們執政長一直對著美國親美的角度是不是可以請教他由大國跟我們中共"},{"start":177.752,"end":203.408,"text":"來對談你們認為是因為中共的阻擾那是不是要借用美國這麼大的一個國家來跟中共來對談是不是讓我們有機會重新的加入WHA這個組織讓我們台灣進入到世界衛生組織的一個立場而不是一直採用雙邊的會談跟會議你來回答"},{"start":206.039,"end":216.971,"text":"非常謝謝委員提出的這個問題這個的確是非常的重要那美國在過去這麼十多年來一直都有跟我們這種國組的這個對話國際組織參與的這個對話那在對話之後也具體的提出的一些方式來協助我們"},{"start":224.019,"end":252.141,"text":"那最近這一次就是針對2758號決議案有很重要的這種發言但是將我們的國際參與交由其他的國家來幫我們協商的話那我想這個可能必須要去重新思考參與國際組織是我們政府要代表我們台灣人民的這個事情我們的這個權益不應該交由其他的國家來替我們來施行那我想我們的權益是掌握在我們的手中"},{"start":252.941,"end":274.815,"text":"現在目前就是因為沒有辦法進入所以我們也要借力使力啊對我們最主要的這個方向在這邊也跟委員報告就是我們希望能夠吸引更多的這些國家來支持我們在參與世界衛生組織那我們吸引到的這個國家去為我們去聯合進洽"},{"start":276.016,"end":277.237,"text":"這是一個國人關切而且非常很重視的看待那我希望下一個林佳榮部長"},{"start":298.075,"end":302.859,"text":"徐巧欣委員．立法委員．本席非常不解的地方．也對我們部長．"},{"start":317.509,"end":335.122,"text":"對國會提告立法委員是一個重大的事件因為目前外交部控告習曉欣是有關於捷克簽訂的一千萬美金援助烏克蘭其中指定的百分之三十到四十之間的採購"},{"start":336.783,"end":348.973,"text":"臺灣的一彩．有圖利特定的廠商的嫌疑．外交部在5月7號．赴北檢提告習曉新委員泄密．北檢已列入他這案．"},{"start":349.878,"end":374.401,"text":"我們剛剛習曉欣送了密件我們密件 我們外交部裡面的密件有兩種第一個是國家的密件第二個是公務員重要的密件但是它列入在什麼樣的密件 我不曉得但是你們向來 你們的密件都向來都是密件這個是不解的地方"},{"start":375.422,"end":402.394,"text":"那另外就是我要特別講的就是是不是這個只是由法條司來提供提告給徐喬欣另外就是我特別要講的是行政部門控告立法委員這是一個行政權透過司法權企圖迫使立法委員的權利限縮監督的權利那這可說是中華民國史上第一個"},{"start":403.454,"end":424.171,"text":"第一次在民主國家極為駭人聽聞的事件請部長務必講清楚公告的完整決策過程這樣未來若要追究責任或要論功行賞才知道要找誰另外我特別要講的是"},{"start":426.599,"end":455.356,"text":"行政部門控告立法委員的是一個大事無論結果如何我這個地方特別要講的未來產生重大的影響已經夠了我們藉此機會來明確的來誰是歸屬責任這件事未來可能有三件事情會發生第一件習巧芹委員可能敗訴第二個外交部可能敗訴第三"},{"start":456.55,"end":479.734,"text":"外交部可能會撤告但是如果請問一下部長如果習巧芯委員在敗訴的過程他必須要負法律責任對不對是因為違反了相關的新法的規定那請問如果是外交部敗訴的話誰要負政治的責任你來回答"},{"start":480.793,"end":497.522,"text":"這是一個假設性的問題。剛剛我已經問你了,如果習委員他在被提告的過程裡面,他敗訴了,他負法律責任,你剛剛說是,那如果外交部的"},{"start":498.422,"end":502.844,"text":"有關於未來的這個狀況如果說是告發的這一方如果說是裁判的這個結果對告發的一方不利的話"},{"start":523.132,"end":538.801,"text":"那我相信到時候那個因為告發的是我們外交部的那我們外交部應該是會去做這些適當的討論但是委員剛剛所說的這個事情我也必須要去做澄清我自己也是政治的學者我拿到政治學的這個博士"},{"start":539.381,"end":568.071,"text":"那就行政機構跟立法機構之間的關係是相互制衡是一個對立而相互制衡的關係而不是說永遠是由立法部門來制衡行政部門所以這種關係之下的話大家也要彼此相互的尊重今天你是在立法院背刑立法院背刑但是你提告我們國會的立法委員的立場"},{"start":569.191,"end":579.417,"text":"這是一個創造了歷史的一個害人害文的一個問題如果說是違反了刑法第132條的規定而我們沒有去處理的話可能受到影響是我們的國家利益"},{"start":586.201,"end":604.173,"text":"外交部長林佳龍來接這個爛攤子因為這個事情明明就是在期刊裡面都已經彰顯一千萬的美金來援助烏克蘭這是事實所以我們今天來講"},{"start":606.718,"end":618.854,"text":"我們國會希望是良性的一個表達安民的訴求而不是製造現在製造國會之間跟你們行政部門之間的尷尬的場面然後把問題丟給"},{"start":623.519,"end":644.027,"text":"如果說是一個文件這個是機密的然後把這個文件秀出來的話這個很明顯的就是違反了刑法第132條的這個規定那我們行政部門我們外交部這邊是受害者那可能我們的國家利益也會受到損害對於這件事情我們外交部沒有不處理的這個空間"},{"start":646.192,"end":662.249,"text":"你們現在不要混淆了國人的視聽今天我們不會立法委是授以人民國票出來站在這個舞台上來執行執行你們有沒有以公以平以公正"},{"start":663.19,"end":688.882,"text":"這是一個國人看待但是你們是專業行政部門不要去毀謠視聽因為你提告了立法委員這是一個重大的政治事件也是重大的事件那剛剛我才問你如果你們敗訴我一再一再講如果你們敗訴是誰要承擔是你來承擔還是林佳龍來承擔你來回答這個議題這個假設性的問題"},{"start":691.323,"end":706.569,"text":"不是假設性剛剛我已經問你了如果習曉新立法委員如果他是敗訴的時候我問你你說是負法律責任那請問這個是一個這是一個答案那現在我訪問你"},{"start":707.529,"end":735.146,"text":"外交部萬一敗訴的時候是林小龍負責呢還是你負責這個要跟國人交代嗎也跟委員報告一下就是說我們外交部去討論了有關於像這種把密件秀出來給記者的這個做法那這個很明確的違反了刑法第132條的這個規定我們認為說在這個事情上面我們的檢察官或者是我們的法官"},{"start":736.467,"end":756.881,"text":"如果意見來講徐小溪委員第一依什麼法條來提告他依什麼法條這個是一個疑問一個問號依什麼法條來問他從哪裡的法源那第二個剛剛委員正問你如果你們外交部倍數是誰要承擔是林佳龍承擔嗎你來回答"},{"start":758.547,"end":759.408,"text":"所以你還在毀謠國人的事情?你再毀謠視聽了"}]}},{"id":"152521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c00b1d1ffa3649b6e1881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e4512dd67b214fff2aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"10:57:02 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11:05:04","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":482,"end_time":"2024-05-15T11:05:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:57:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時57分）謝謝主席，有請我們農業部部長。"],["主席：好，我們請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，針對今天農再條例的修正，主要大家是很擔心，整個農再基金目前大概還剩多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該剩497億。"],["蔡委員易餘：剩497億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果以這樣的規劃是到116年。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們提出來第4期的預算是432億，所以相對的，到116年的時候，基金的餘額應該有5.5億。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以就是到116年……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，到116年的時候。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是看起來這個基金即將要用罄了，所以今天大家才會去煩惱這個部分，尤其對我們農業縣來說，整個農再基金是撐住整個農村維持一個還可以的面貌。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這是非常重要的經費支持。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你們這邊也同意，未來是不是可以再持續用公務預算來撥補這個基金，讓這個基金可以持續充足？"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝委員，因為農再計畫的推動成果，我想大家委員都支持，所以現在的問題就是，經費一定是持續需要的，這樣農村的建設才可以繼續，只是經費怎麼編列啦！以農業部的立場來看，我們會希望是由我們農業部的經費，我們會一期一期的去編，然後由行政院同意了以後，就算未來基金見底了，它還是可以透過另外一個機制，透過行政院同意了以後，用公務預算去撥補，用這樣的方式還是可以讓……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以就是撥補基金嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：撥補基金以後，這樣的話可以繼續運作。"],["蔡委員易餘：讓這個基金可以持續去做，並不會說這個條文寫一個10年，10年以後……"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在的農發基金也一樣，農發基金已經撥完了，但是還是不夠，每年都需要，公務預算也會撥補，農損基金也是這樣子。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我們是希望……因為農村的建設跟農再基金……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是非常重要的。"],["蔡委員易餘：真的是息息相關，這個非常重要。第二個，我想跟部長討論一下，我們知道現在內政部的國土計畫法看起來即將上路，但是國土計畫法還是有很多需要去檢討的，尤其是國土計畫法跟農村發展條例，甚至到農村再生條例，他們這樣彼此要對接的問題，在我的選區，像水上鄉龍德村，就常常有很多是庄頭裡面的農地。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：庄頭喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：嗯。"],["蔡委員易餘：並不是在庄外，庄外就是……它就是農田嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：同樣都是庄頭裡面，就是四周大概都是房子，不過那塊被規劃成農一。"],["陳代理部長駿季：農一。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長不會覺得這個很奇怪嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個的確是有一點奇怪。"],["蔡委員易餘：是，看起來也不少。我聽到很多人跟我陳情，你說這塊田是在庄外，那就整個都是農地了，而它明明就在庄內，旁邊都是房子！這樣……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們現在看各縣市在編列從農一到農五的部分，有幾個比較異常的就是農一跟農二編列本身的比例問題。第三個是，有一些可以屬於農三的它被編成保育……"],["蔡委員易餘：保育地？"],["陳代理部長駿季：國保。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個部分我們也想辦法去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！那……"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以有一些像您剛才講的這個部分，也有部分的情形會發生……"],["蔡委員易餘：我要確認是不是只有農三跟農四、農五，才有可能在農村再生條例裡面的總體計畫去幫它做一些使用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該是以農三到農五才是主要的，但也不是說唯一只能在農三或農四的部分。因為農一的……"],["蔡委員易餘：主要還是用在那邊嘛！但農一的部分還是希望維持……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，維持農業生產。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是維持農業生產。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想跟你反映的應該是這樣，我覺得這有需要再檢討。因為它既然在庄內，大概村莊內還是有村莊內需要的一些景觀啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：那你現在又把它弄成農一，然後把它限制就是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這樣就會有問題，就像你剛才講的那個例子，村莊裡面包圍的這些地……"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是不是可以適度調整，不然到時候裡面就變成夾心餅乾，就是一個單一的……"],["蔡委員易餘：它就變成裡面只有一塊在那裡。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：對於整個村莊的整體使用，土地的使用變得沒有那麼俐落，我覺得其實這要檢討。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們部裡面永續司和農村水保署會去看這些特別奇怪的地方，可以跟縣市政府再做溝通。"],["蔡委員易餘：好……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這樣的話，也許讓整個國土計畫是不是能夠順利，這個蠻關鍵的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我想這個很重要。","第二個我要跟部長再談一下子朴子肉品市場，從蘇貞昌院長承諾整個朴子屠宰場要做升級，未來可以導入HACCP，讓臺灣的豬肉可以外銷，所以這個事情地方很期待。但是看起來，因為中間行政程序的一些討論過程有拖延，一直到去年底拆除才標出去，興建大概還需要很長的時間。但我覺得這件事情就變成是，一開始在決定時太過匆促，一開始就叫做朴子……"],["陳代理部長駿季：太早拆了。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有，它是到去年才拆，我們是很早就叫它停止。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["蔡委員易餘：停止營業，造成了周邊的很多損失。目前我的掌握、聽到農會跟我反映，只有承諾這兩年農會的損失我們要補助，只補助2年，接下來就不補助了。但是你看，若是這樣的話，如果要那麼晚才拆，是不是我們不應該那麼早就叫他們停止營業？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，當初為2年是因為，我們規劃大概2年會興建完成。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果是因故、其他原因而延長，我們會討論是不是針對農會的協助再延長，這是第一件事情。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：第二點，這些承銷單位，周遭的承銷人會到鄰近的批發市場去。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是承銷的，對，他們那裡……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個部分我們會繼續協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他們現在都要跑去雲林的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會繼續……"],["蔡委員易餘：不然都跑去善化。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：去那邊的拍賣場，營業成本增加很多。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們這個也會持續增加。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得重點還是後續興建的這件事情要讓它快一點。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你這樣一直拖下去，我們又要去彌補這些損失，所彌補的這筆錢也不是小數目！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我覺得這件事情，可能我們再找大家開會一次。"],["陳代理部長駿季：營業主體，嗯。"],["蔡委員易餘：開會下來，大家的工作進度要抓嚴一點。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：抓緊一點，不能再拖下去了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：接下來請楊瓊瓔召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.2415937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.567218750000002,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.727218750000002,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.962218750000005,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.95346875,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.91096875,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.94846875,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.540968750000005,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.91221875,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.79346875,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.67096875,"end":63.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.03721875000001,"end":68.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.78721875000001,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.45221875,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.48534375,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.67096875,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.68784375,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.01909375000001,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.49909375,"end":110.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.86596875000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.05409375,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.03284375000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.00721875,"end":126.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.28096875,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.46534375000002,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.86596875,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.02596875,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.47721875000002,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.95284375,"end":175.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.08971875,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.75034375,"end":176.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.40846875,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":181.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.71471875,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.43159375000002,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.68471875,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.80284375000002,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.97159375,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.03909375,"end":191.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.54534375,"end":194.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.11034375,"end":197.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.29971875,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.97471875000002,"end":207.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.18971875000003,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.36971875,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.42409375000003,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.50846875000002,"end":211.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.90034375000002,"end":222.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.29221875000002,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.99159375000002,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.61971875,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.10034375,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.31096875000003,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.32784375000003,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.17534375000002,"end":238.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.52909375000002,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.93346875,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.46471875,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.46409375000002,"end":261.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.20534375,"end":285.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.09534375000004,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.96846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to be considered as a farm."},{"start":212.226,"end":230.263,"text":"我向委員報告就是我們現在看各縣市在編列的從農一到農五的部分有幾個比較異常的部分就是農一跟農二的編列本身的比例的問題那第三個就是有一些可以屬於農三的"},{"start":231.184,"end":247.523,"text":"他被編成保育那個國保國保去了那這個部分我們也想辦法去處理有一些像您剛才講的這個部分也有部分的情形會發生所以部長我要確認是不是只有農三跟農四農五他才有可能在農村的一個"},{"start":248.624,"end":249.545,"text":"再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":271.339,"end":295.271,"text":"我認為這需要檢討,因為既然在村內,大概村莊內還是有村莊內需要的一些景觀,你現在又把它用成農醫,然後他把它限制就是...就會有問題,這樣就會有問題,就像你剛剛講的例子,就是村莊裡面包圍的這些地,那是不是可以適度的調整,不然到時候裡面就變成夾金餅乾,"},{"start":296.932,"end":311.011,"text":"就是一個單一的...對阿然後對於整個村莊的整體的使用變得...這土地的使用變得沒有那麼的俐落啦我估計說這...我們後續我想我們我們部裡面永續師會去還有水保署會去"},{"start":313.514,"end":329.372,"text":"看這些比較特別奇怪的地方可以跟縣市政府再做溝通啦。這樣的話也許讓整個的國土計畫是不是可以能夠順利,這蠻關鍵的。我想這個很重要啦。第二個我要跟部長再談一下我們鋪子的肉品市場。"},{"start":330.41,"end":356.064,"text":"案。」而農民市場大概從蘇貞昌院長承認說我們佈置這個整個這個屠宰場然後要把它做一個升級然後未來是可以導入HACCP那可以讓它在台灣的地盤可以外銷處理所以這個事情地方很期待但是看起來因為在中間行政程序的一些"},{"start":357.685,"end":377.501,"text":"一些討論的過程有拖延到,有拖延到,所以一直到了去年,去年底,我們才拆除,拆除標材出去。那目前興建大概還需要很長的時間。但是呢,我覺得這件事情就變得說一開始在決定太衝刺了。就是說我們一開始就叫"},{"start":380.523,"end":381.784,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文"},{"start":404.635,"end":425.77,"text":"接下來就不補助了,但是你這樣看,你這樣的話,我們如果要那麼晚才拆,是不是很,我們不應該那麼早就叫他們停止營業。我跟各位報告,就是說農村兩年是因為我們規劃大概兩年會新建完整,那如果是因故其他的原因延長的時候,我們會來討論說,是不是針對農會的協助會再延長,這第一件事情。第二點就是說,"},{"start":429.953,"end":432.255,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":456.59,"end":458.491,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"}]}},{"id":"152520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c03e35d5f8850d8bac881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e4509fb1cd450f666b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:47:25 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10:56:57","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":572,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:56:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:47:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":536,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時47分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，今天我們針對農村再生條例提出了修正草案，各別委員都有很多的提案，最主要就是因為剛才提到的，農村再生基金即將要用完了，我們希望未來在整個農村的轉型政策上能夠持續的落實，也要來提高這個基金的金額，本席對此表示支持。在農村再生條例的第十二條有特別講到老舊農水路的修建跟整個完善農村社區整體環境建設的各個環節，我們要跟部長來做一個討論，最重要的就是因為以前叫做水利會，現在叫農水署，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：以前水利會是有會員，現在是農水署，就是沒有會員，是全面性的，屬於公務機關。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：以前水利會都有去做農水路，沒有繳會費的會員就是非灌區的，在這個地方有很多都沒有農水路，必須要趕快來做，因為在非灌區他們都是用川流的水，如果碰到乾旱的時候，你們把水閘門關了，他們就會沒有水，而且現在水稻已經耕作下去了，即將就是抽穗期，萬一發生乾旱，就會造成他們農作物的損失，農業部對於這些都要關心而且要照顧到，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，灌區是過去的概念……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在是全面的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在是全面的，但是……"],["呂委員玉玲：以前全國的灌區是55萬公頃，那31萬公頃是屬於我們的灌區，非灌區有24萬公頃，但是你在去年要整個涵蓋，要努力把全部打通都有農水路，只做到5.6萬公頃，還有18.4萬公頃沒有做，這個速度太慢了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我要跟委員說明，就是非灌區的部分，有一部分在平地，有一部分在坡地，坡地是沒有辦法做灌溉渠道的，所以在坡地的部分，我們鼓勵興建蓄水池，還有滴灌、管路灌溉。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，在平地的話，農水路是屬於農水署的，如果在山地的農水路是屬於水保署的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為有水質的保持、保護問題……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們農水署照樣去支持坡地裡面灌溉用水的水池興建跟他的蓄水……就是他的灌溉系統的管路，我們都有去支持，而且每戶應該是50萬吧！最高50萬……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你的意思是你沒有辦法做到全面性？還有18.4萬公頃沒辦法做。"],["陳代理部長駿季：18.4萬公頃，平地的部分大概灌溉溝渠可以弄，坡地的話是沒有辦法灌溉的。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道你可以弄，但是你的速度太慢。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會加強速度。"],["呂委員玉玲：加強？你準備再做多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想這個……"],["呂委員玉玲：去年做5.6萬公頃，今年呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：到8萬。"],["呂委員玉玲：今年做多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：目標到8萬。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，你們比去年都還多了，表示你們夠積極。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是本席要在這邊提醒的是，如果你們還沒有做到的，我們要讓所有農民都享有穩定灌溉用水的權利，如果說沒有做到的地方，影響到他們農作物的收割，這部分我們農業部要來補償好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個要看情況，看看是不是符合天然災害救助。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果是乾旱期，我提到的是乾旱期。"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果是符合天然災害救助的話……"],["呂委員玉玲：影響到他們耕作的收成，這個一定要做到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：達到20%，我們就會啟動天然災害救助。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，這一定要來補償。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：再來，因為台水公司跟農水署購買的水的成本越來越高，1公噸的成本加上所有的費用，平均起來是4.1元，而跟水利署購買的水的成本，1公噸只有1塊錢，部長，你有沒有聽懂這個意思？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["呂委員玉玲：一樣是公務機關，為什麼買水的情形不一樣？這一點你們可以做個調整嗎？一樣是公務機關啊！而且我們自來水公司也努力在各方面用水的部分，它也是多元來使用，開發更多的水源，也減少了我們漏水的問題，還有舉債，比如說他們很多太舊的管線都要汰舊換新，他們的成本也很高。所以本席在這邊希望我們部長能夠重視，讓農水署比照水利署調整原水的單價，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個我想我們會後會去評估，跟委員報告一個重點，就是我們農業的部分，有一部分是水庫用水，那才需要去處理，更有一部分我們是用埤塘、用河川，所以我們希望更多的埤塘能夠來做水資源的調度，像桃園地區現在水情有點緊張，其實對農業用水來講，我們覺得……"],["呂委員玉玲：是自來水公司啦！它也是供應給大家的水嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為自來水公司也已經負債了，它的水價又不能調漲，我們要平衡原水的單價，這個部分請農業部回去做個調整，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們後續來做個瞭解。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來就是紐西蘭的鮮奶快要免關稅了，因為2013年我們就簽訂臺紐經濟合作協定，農產品在12年的時間內逐步調整到零關稅，明年就到期了，最關鍵的就是，因為這個鮮奶的問題，之前在4月份的時候有特別提到，他們的鮮奶在120度的溫度殺菌之後，60天的期限是比較久的，我們臺灣的酪農在競爭之下，如果明年它零關稅，對我們整個酪農的生產跟單價方面會影響很大，整個市場上會影響很大、衝擊很大，我們現在酪農只剩下500戶而已，所以在這一部分，我們怎麼樣來調整酪農的轉型，或者給他們經費的補助？而且最重要的是，你現在已經發文給食藥署說這個名稱要改成長效乳，已經一個半月快兩個月了，專家會議都沒有開，是有什麼顧忌還是有什麼問題嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我想跟委員說明，長效乳的名稱建議案，我們在4月初已經送到衛福部那邊了，我會儘快再跟衛福部溝通，能夠召開一個正式的會議。"],["呂委員玉玲：已經快兩個月了，儘快，已經放兩個月了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道，所以我持續在跟他們溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：剩下半年的時間，明年他們就完全免關稅、零關稅了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。下禮拜我相信應該會有更……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，下禮拜就有正式的會議，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我會請衛福部，因為會議不是我們召開的，所以我會請……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要去瞭解什麼原因，它有顧忌什麼，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，我會儘可能請他們能夠儘快……"],["呂委員玉玲：不要放在那邊，要去追蹤，已經快兩個月了，你們還沒有追蹤。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席要提醒你們。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我每天都在追。"],["呂委員玉玲：而且你們現在特別提出29億的農業升級計畫，所以你要特別看看我們的酪農要怎麼樣讓他們轉型、輔導他們，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：還有一個問題，關於立陶宛這個部分，看我們的農產品有開放給他們進口進來，因為立陶宛本來在我們這邊的辦事處，從臺灣要改成臺北，現在又放下來了，立陶宛現在正在選舉，相信現任的總統可能會連任，我們擔心的是，未來它如果又跟大陸交好的話，對我們農產品的進口方面，我們農業部會不會適時的做一個調整？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們跟立陶宛的農業合作，不會因為他們的政經局勢變化而有太大的改變，因為農業的……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為當時它跟大陸那邊的……大陸有給立陶宛進口牛肉，後來他們關係不好的時候，我們就想拉攏它，給它進口牛肉到臺灣來，萬一這個總統又連任了，他又繼續跟大陸有更友好的關係……"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以對於臺灣跟立陶宛的合作，其實我們在112年就簽了兩國的貿易合作備忘錄，然後在今年度5月6號，我們有正式的會議，所以有幾個面向，加工的應用、低碳的栽培技術，還有一些種原合作，這個都是我們的強項，所以它不會因為他們政治上的一個立場而改變了對我們的合作，因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望不要被改變。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們用技術的方式去支持外交。"],["呂委員玉玲：你剛剛講的是很多別的科技的技術，我講的是牛肉部分，如果它有這種情勢在發生的話，我們一定要對我們整個農產品的進口做調整，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請蔡易餘委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 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。"},{"start":169.002,"end":183.596,"text":"所以因為有水池的保持保護的問題我們農水組照樣去支持波地裡面的灌溉用水的水池的興建跟它的蓄水設就是它的灌溉系統的那個管路我們都有去支持而且每戶應該是50萬吧"},{"start":185.698,"end":187.82,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":211.465,"end":211.485,"text":"案。」議員"},{"start":234.104,"end":234.484,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具"},{"start":265.507,"end":274.983,"text":"部長,你有沒有聽懂這個意思?一樣是公務機關,為什麼買水的情形不一樣?這個這一點的話你們可以做個調整嗎?一樣是公務機關啊?"},{"start":276.991,"end":304,"text":"而且我們自來水公司他也努力的在各方面的用水部分他也多元的來使用能夠開發更多的水源也減少了我們這個漏水的問題還有舉在比如說他們很多的這些太舊的管線都要太舊換新他們的成本也很高所以本期在這邊希望我們部長能夠重視讓我們的農水署能不能比照水利署的調整原水的單價好不好"},{"start":304.76,"end":330.485,"text":"這個我想我們會後會去評估那跟委員報告一個重點就是我們農業的部分有一部分是水庫用水那才需要去處理那更有一部分我們是用埤塘用河川所以我們希望說更多的埤塘能夠來做水資源的調度像桃園地區現在水情有點緊張其實對農業用水來講我們覺得自來水公司啦它是供應給大家的水嘛因為自來公司也已經負債了"},{"start":331.425,"end":332.406,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文"},{"start":361.805,"end":380.953,"text":"最關鍵的就是因為這個鮮奶的問題那之前在4月份的時候特別有提到這個他們的鮮奶到120度的溫度殺菌之後的話60天的這個期限的話是比較久的在我們台灣的這個酪農的話在競爭之下如果明年他零關稅那影響到我們"},{"start":382.253,"end":391.018,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":407.526,"end":422.869,"text":"改成長效乳已經一個半月快兩個月了都沒有專家會都沒有開這個是有什麼顧忌還是有什麼問題嗎不是我想跟委員說明齁這個長效乳的這個建議民政的建議案我們在4月初已經送到衛福部那邊了齁是那"},{"start":424.07,"end":447.245,"text":"我會盡快再跟衛務部溝通齁能夠召開一個正式的會議已經快兩個月了盡快已經放兩個月了對我知道所以我持續在跟他們溝通剩下半年的時間明年的話他們完全就免關稅囉零關稅囉我相信下禮拜我相信應該會有更明確的做法下禮拜就要有正式的會議好不好我會要求請啊請衛務部因為會議不是我們召開的"},{"start":448.306,"end":468.123,"text":"所以你要去了解什麼原因,他有顧忌什麼嗎?是不是?了解,我會盡可能請他們...不要放到那邊,要去追蹤,已經要兩個月了,你們還沒有追蹤,我只是要提醒你們,好不好?而且你們現在特別提出來了29億的農業升級的這個計畫,所以你要特別看看我們這個諾農要怎麼樣讓他們轉型,來輔導他們,好不好?好。那還有一個問題就是,這個台紐喔,這個,不是,這個立陶宛"},{"start":477.669,"end":499.053,"text":"這個部分我們看到我們的農產品在這邊有開放給他們進口進來那因為那個立陶宛本來在我們這邊辦事處從台灣要改成台北現在又放下來了那立陶宛在這邊現在正在選舉相信現任的總統可能會連任我們擔心的是未來他如果又跟大陸交好的話對我們這個農產品的進口方面我們農業部會不會適時的做一個調整"},{"start":504.87,"end":505.05,"text":"答案。"},{"start":524.958,"end":525.178,"text":"案：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":541.248,"end":568.751,"text":"所以有幾個面向加工的應用低碳的栽培技術還有一些種源這個都是我們的強項所以他不會因為他們政治上的一個立場而改變了對我們的合作我們希望不要被改變啦我們用技術的方式去支持外交你剛剛講的是很多別的科技的技術我想的是牛肉部分如果他有這種情勢再發生的話我們一定要對我們整個農產品的進口做調整好不好我了解"},{"start":572.111,"end":572.564,"text":"文修正草案。"}]}},{"id":"152519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0c17cb6acf36ff36d96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e458d5162d7c243163e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:39:12 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10:53:32","影片長度":"00:14:20","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":860,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:53:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:39:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時39分）主席，請秘書長、次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：我請兩位分別回答，先請秘書長再請次長。對於蔡英文總統在卸任前最後一班車，最後兩天來特赦前總統陳水扁先生的貪污案，請問對我們下一代的教育會有什麼樣的影響？請秘書長回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：關於赦免法規定的特赦……"],["傅委員崐萁：對教育有什麼影響？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是不是要特赦？如何特赦？我們尊重總統的職權。"],["傅委員崐萁：這他的職權。本席再請教你，司法就是教化，對不對？是社會公平正義、社會秩序最後一道防線，對不對？請問秘書長，對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個還是尊重總統的職權……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在本席沒有問你尊不尊重！你身為一個司法人，你是不是司法人？是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我當然是司法人。"],["傅委員崐萁：以你司法的良心請你回答，對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有些事是不是要這樣關聯，這就各有看法。"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，你站在這位置上，你所代表的就是天平的兩端，也就是代表國家公器站在這裡！所以本席請教一下，對我們的教育有什麼影響？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這兩件事是不是要這樣關聯，就是各有各的看法……"],["傅委員崐萁：次長請回答。"],["黃次長謀信：特赦制度當然會對現有判決的效力產生影響，但這就是特赦這個特別制度本來存在的意義，它一定會有影響，不過就有它存在的意思……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼樣的影響？"],["黃次長謀信：中外皆然，舉世皆然，都有……"],["傅委員崐萁：對我們的教育有什麼影響？"],["黃次長謀信：當然就是會不會對我們判決確定力、確定判決的既判力產生一些動搖作用，但它就是一個特別制度，不然就不會有特赦這個制度！"],["傅委員崐萁：對於貪污犯，而且身為總統，他本身是貪污犯，對我們的教育影響多大，次長？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我的回答還是一樣，憲法上這是總統的特別權力，它一定會產生……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以本席今天就來請教，第一個問題，竟然代表司法天平兩端，代表這個國家正義的最後防線，連禮義廉恥都講不出來！司法已死！真的司法已死！你們連最基本的人格、人性，連該講的話都不敢講！權位真的有這麼重要嗎？可以遮蔽我們的良知跟良心嗎？可以嗎？秘書長，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我的回復還是……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再跟我講這是總統的權力！"],["吳秘書長三龍：這兩件事是不是要這樣關聯，各有各的看法，各有各的看法。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，果然民進黨的官就是不一樣！現在判刑二十年確定，所以我們朗讀給全國國人再回味一下。龍潭購地三億元收賄案、陳敏薰買官一千萬元收賄案、海角七億洗錢案，這海角七億哪裡來的，還是搞不清楚！二次金改收元大兩億貪污案，合併執行二十年判決定讞，保外就醫，擬特赦。再過來，國務機要費一點五億元貪污案，在民進黨全體力挺之下，於立法院正式除罪。二次金改國泰併世華收賄三億以及洗錢案，二審判十八年，目前停審當中，請問這判決十八年的停審，有沒有在這次特赦的範圍內？次長？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，特赦案件按照赦免法規定，原則上限於已經確定的案件才有特赦範圍……"],["傅委員崐萁：對。"],["黃次長謀信：至於停審這種案件，基本上不會被特赦的效率所及。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝！所以未來還會繼續追嗎？法務部？"],["黃次長謀信：委員是講沒收部分，還是審判部分？"],["傅委員崐萁：審判停審部分。"],["黃次長謀信：審判部分司法院對個案上要繼續……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以檢察官要表示意見啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們剛剛已經跟委員說明了，在個案上，檢察官事實上有表示意見，要根據停審相關的消滅時效規定，有注意到。"],["傅委員崐萁：這個待會本席再請教你。請秘書長回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：停審未定讞案件的處理，原則上屬於審判核心事項，基於審判獨立，由個案承審法官本於權責……"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝秘書長。今天到立法院來，你完全就是來這裡把時間消耗掉！沒有關係，本席在這裡陪你。停審當中所謂核心，本席請教一下，當時停審的條件是什麼？請秘書長回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是以生病……"],["傅委員崐萁：生病？法務部有沒有提出相關條件？四不，法務部回答一下。"],["黃次長謀信：停審是審酌，准不准是法院法官的職權。"],["傅委員崐萁：但是法務部同意保外就醫，且有四項條件，哪四項？"],["黃次長謀信：那是外界俗稱的，不上臺、不演講之類的，是四個相關規定。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席再跟你回憶一下。不得參加選舉活動、不得參加政治活動、不得接受媒體訪問、不得參與顯然與疾病無關的活動，陳水扁有沒有觸犯這些問題？有沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這三十八次展延保外就醫，都有審酌這些因素，個案上臺中……"],["傅委員崐萁：都有審酌？"],["黃次長謀信：臺中監獄……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以法務部跟司法院現在兩隻眼睛都遮住了，都看不到，只有人民看得到，我們的司法看不到？是不是？本席請教一下，108年9月28號陳水扁參加民進黨中央黨部前封街舉行33週年慶臺灣派對狂歡，這跟疾病就醫有沒有關係？請秘書長回答，這跟疾病就醫有沒有關係？有沒有關係？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些未定讞的案件……"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有關係？"],["吳秘書長三龍：還是由個案法官來……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在請教你有沒有關係？這是國會殿堂。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為……"],["傅委員崐萁：保外就醫，請問參加民進黨週年慶的歡樂派對，有沒有跟就醫有關？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些有些是涉及事實認定……"],["傅委員崐萁：你不用回答、你不用回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法行政……"],["傅委員崐萁：次長，請回答，這是直接跟法務部保外就醫的但書……"],["黃次長謀信：對，違反保外醫治的相關規定……"],["傅委員崐萁：參加政黨狂歡派對，有沒有跟政治有關？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當時……"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有跟政治有關？"],["黃次長謀信：臺中監獄跟矯正署都有審酌相關……"],["傅委員崐萁：法務部認為這跟政治有沒有關係？"],["黃次長謀信：這個不在法務部的權限，這個是……"],["傅委員崐萁：我請教你這跟政治有沒有關係嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：跟政治有沒有關係？"],["傅委員崐萁：參加政黨活動跟政治有沒有關係？"],["黃次長謀信：當時中監審酌時有參酌相關醫療證明，認為這有助於他個人的醫療。"],["傅委員崐萁：參加政治活動有助於他的醫療？"],["黃次長謀信：它有很多因素去審酌，包括醫療證明也是。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，108年11月20號陳水扁接受一邊一國行動黨2020立法委員選舉不分區立委提名，他接受提名，這是不是政治活動？次長，這是不是政治活動？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我回答跟剛剛那個問題的答案其實是一樣的。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你也看不出來這是不是政治活動？參加政黨正式的提名是不是政治活動，不曉得？法務部現在是聾、瞎、啞，又聾、又瞎、又啞？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個是臺中監獄跟矯正署的職權，不是我法務部的職權。"],["傅委員崐萁：當然是法務部的職權，怎麼不是法務部的職權？好，陳水扁參加凱道政治性團體募款餐會112年5月26號，次長，這是不是政治活動？"],["黃次長謀信：報告，我的答案還是跟剛剛回復委員的答案是一樣，它判準機制是一樣的。"],["傅委員崐萁：請教一下法務部，剛剛其實謝龍介委員提到的問題核心，你們一直沒有回答，停審有沒有影響追訴期？主要是在問什麼，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：有啊，報告委員，我剛剛有回答，它是會影響追訴期。"],["傅委員崐萁：是對他的追訴期並沒有減少，但對同案的追訴期有沒有減少？"],["黃次長謀信：看同案有沒有停審，如果沒有停審，它就……"],["傅委員崐萁：就過了追訴期對不對？不在起訴範圍內……"],["黃次長謀信：如果沒有停止審判的話，起訴的話是會停止他的追訴……"],["傅委員崐萁：不在起訴範圍內的。"],["黃次長謀信：非起訴範圍的被告？"],["傅委員崐萁：未來可能會被告。"],["黃次長謀信：會，它追訴期會提前。"],["傅委員崐萁：就超過了追訴期對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，如果沒有起訴的話。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。所以陳幸妤講，民進黨誰沒有拿過陳水扁的錢？有沒有共同洗錢？有沒有共同對價？有沒有共犯關係？這些人未來被查出來的時候都已經過了追訴期，陳幸妤講的全國人都知道，你們就是幫他們拖過追訴期是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個當時在特偵組查的時候，如果有相當的共犯，理論上，特偵組都會追查。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡正告法務部還有司法院，如果你們用這種態度在立法院答詢，在國會殿堂裡面用這種態度，把你們守護國家司法天秤，人民得到保護跟社會秩序的最後一道防線，你們的良知、良心都被蒙蔽，都在這裡做一些違心之論，本席在這裡隆重告訴你，接下來我們還有很多、還有很多我們的應對方式，我們不會就此作罷。","本席要再強調一下，特赦陳水扁是不是成為這個社會和解的一個大家共同來思考的問題，本席可以考慮，也願意尊重，但是免罪、免刑，過程大家一定要講清楚，還有基本上法務部跟司法院的態度也要很清楚。今天對我們的教育影響多大？我們下一代的教育，原來總統可以貪污，然後可以得到特赦，當到了總統都還可以貪污，那誰不能貪污？總統可以特赦，誰不能特赦？我請問一下，以後要怎麼教育我們的下一代？這就是今天兩位在這裡的表率，歷史都會記載今天的詢答。","接下來我們會把其他對應的辦法做相關的準備，但是請各位，不管在哪一個位置，不要蒙蔽了我們的初心，各位當時走進司法界是抱著什麼樣的理想、什麼樣的良知跟態度走進來？今天各位做到的，你的子孫也在看，你的子孫也會在看，這樣做是對的嗎？"],["主席：謝謝。稍後於林思銘委員詢答之後，我們依照先前的宣告處理臨時提案。接續請林委員思銘進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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請秘書長、次長我請兩位分別回答先請秘書長再請次長對於蔡英文總統在卸任前最後一班車最後的兩天來特赦"},{"start":37.694,"end":38.275,"text":"對教育有什麼影響?"},{"start":59.489,"end":88.326,"text":"這一部分是不是要特赦那如何特赦我們是尊重總統的職權這他的職權本席在請教你司法就是教化嘛對不對是這個社會公平正義社會秩序最後一道防線對不對請問一下秘書長對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響"},{"start":89.758,"end":112.276,"text":"那就是回復到這個還是尊重總統的職權啦現在本席沒有問你尊不尊重嘛你身為一個司法人嘛你是不是司法人是不是那我當然是司法人那你司法的良心請你回答對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響這個"},{"start":122.121,"end":138.974,"text":"因為秘書長你站在這個位置上你所代表的就是天平的兩端你就是代表國家的公器站在這裡所以本席請教一下對我們的教育有什麼影響"},{"start":146.906,"end":162.54,"text":"市長請回答特赦制度他當然會對現有判決的效率會產生影響但是他這個本來這個特色這個特別制度存在的意義他一定會有影響但是他就有他存在的意義什麼樣的影響"},{"start":164.341,"end":166.223,"text":"所以對於貪污犯而且身為總統他本身是貪污犯對我們的教育影響多大?次長"},{"start":194.992,"end":222.401,"text":"所以本席在今天就請教第一個問題竟然吶代表我們司法天平兩端代表這個國家正義最後的防線連禮譽連詞都講不出來我們司法已死吧真的司法已死啊你們連一個最基本的一個人格人性該講的話都不敢講"},{"start":224.326,"end":224.846,"text":"現在判刑20年確定"},{"start":256.111,"end":282.668,"text":"我們要朗讀一下給全國國人再回味一下龍潭購地3億元收賄案陳敏勳買官1000萬元收賄案海角7億洗錢案這海角7億哪裡來的還是搞不清楚二次經改收元大2億貪污案合併執行20年判決定讞保外就醫你特赦好再過來"},{"start":286.185,"end":311.355,"text":"國務計要費1.5億元貪污案在民進黨全體力挺之下在立法院正式處罪二次經改國泰並視法收費3億以及洗錢案二審判18年目前停審當中請問一下這判決18年的停審有沒有在這次特赦的範圍內?次長"},{"start":315.982,"end":329.734,"text":"各位報告特赦案件按照社民法的規定它原章是限於已經確定的案件才有特赦範圍對所以停審這種案件基本上它不會被特赦的效率所及所以謝謝所以未來還會繼續追嗎"},{"start":333.226,"end":355.945,"text":"法務部委員你是講這個沒收的部分還是講審判的部分審判 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報告委員我剛剛有回答他是會影響他的追溯權是對他的追溯期並沒有減少對同案的追溯期有沒有減少看同案有沒有停審啊如果沒有停審他就過了追溯期對不對"},{"start":650.683,"end":652.644,"text":"所以陳信宇講阿民進黨誰沒有拿過陳水扁的錢阿有沒有共同洗錢有沒有共同對價有沒有共犯關係"},{"start":679.335,"end":705.869,"text":"這些人未來被查出來的時候都已經過了追溯期陳馨瑜講的全國人都知道你們就是幫他拖過追溯期是嗎各位報告這個當時在特徵乳查的時候如果有相當的共犯主義上特徵乳他都會追查本席在這裡正告法務部還有司法院如果你們用這種態度在立法院詢答國會殿堂你們用這種態度"},{"start":708.715,"end":738.064,"text":"把你們守護國家司法天平人民得到保護跟社會秩序的最後一道防線你們的良知良心都被蒙蔽都在這裡做一些違心之論本席在隆重告訴你接下來我們還有很多還有很多我們的應對方式"},{"start":741.173,"end":768.198,"text":"我們不會就此作罷本席要再強調一下特赦陳水扁是不是成為這個社會和解的一個大家共同來思考的問題本席可以考慮也願意尊重"},{"start":769.892,"end":795.865,"text":"但是免罪免刑過程大家一定要講清楚還有基本上法務部跟司法院的態度也要很清楚今天為我們的教育影響多大我們下一代的教育原來總統可以貪汙然後可以得到特赦"},{"start":800.583,"end":824.561,"text":"當到了總統都還可以貪污那誰不能貪污總統可以特赦誰不能特赦我請問一下以後要怎麼教育我們的下一代這就是今天兩位在這裡的表率歷史都會記載今天的詢答我們接下來我們會把"},{"start":827.754,"end":856.428,"text":"其他對應的辦法我們也會做相關的準備但是請各位啊不管在哪一個位置不要蒙蔽了我們的初心各位當時走進司法界是抱著什麼樣的理想什麼樣的良知跟態度走進來那今天各位做到的你的子孫也在看你的子孫也會在看這樣做是對的嗎"}]}},{"id":"152518","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152518","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0a17c3542057af679ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e453b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:38:41 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10:51:40","影片長度":"00:12:59","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":779,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:51:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:38:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時38分）你好，我們請外交部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我今天想討論一下臺灣參加世界衛生組織的策略，世界衛生組織秘書長譚德塞的任期是到什麼時候？"],["吳部長釗燮：2027年。"],["陳委員冠廷：2027年沒錯。根據美國前國務卿龐培歐在自傳的說法是，譚德塞上位是靠中共支持，加上中共現在是世衛的主要捐助國，外交部評估在未來3年內，臺灣參與WHA的機會是樂觀的嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我覺得這個需要長期的努力，我們所要爭取的就是有更多的國家、政府、議會以及當地的重要人物能夠支持我們，努力的這個過程，大家都有看到逐漸累積成果，如果支持的人數、國家數夠多的話，我想這就是水到渠成的時候。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想跟部長還有我們所有的民眾，我覺得還是談一下，臺灣參加世界衛生組織可能過程中會受到中國各式各樣的打壓，但是我們不能夠懼戰，我們不能夠害怕在這個辯論過程中爭取的機會，所以包含剛才我們提到的社群媒體的發聲，透過社群媒體把中共的荒謬之處說出來，這些都是非常正確的作法。所以當我問部長樂觀不樂觀的時候，我們要問的是我們要不要參與的態度，我們這樣子的說法，我們的narrative是怎麼樣，我們必須在論述上面能夠跟中共對抗，我們未來才會有機會，或許今年沒有辦法，或許明年沒有辦法，或許3年後也沒有辦法，但是每一年的嘗試都是作為下一次的累積，所以包含每一次的策略我們都可以做調整，增強它的可能性。當然民主進步黨是全力去支持，然後去推動，我們也希望未來在野黨共同來參與。我想這一次出使歐洲的這些訪團裡面也有包含中國國民黨的委員，我希望這成為一個常態，至少在參與WHA的部分，我們必須要朝野一致。","但是中共的外交部發言人汪文斌前天在臉書的粉專上面，我們有看到他說，我們看到這些相關的文字是說，九二共識是臺灣參與WHA的政治基礎，中國在一中原則下，妥善安排臺灣地區參與全球衛生事務，尤其是2023年中央批准全臺21位醫學、技術專家申請參加WHA的技術活動。部長，外交部對這些言論的立場是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於我們去參與世界衛生組織，如果要基於九二共識，依照中國所說的九二共識，就是接受我們臺灣當成是他們的一部分，而且要接受一國兩制，如果說要這樣才能夠去參加世界衛生組織的話，這個對我們臺灣來講是極端不公平的事情。第二點，我們臺灣去參加，是基於我們臺灣是一個獨立的個體，我們臺灣2,350萬人民的健康福祉也必須要在世界衛生組織的架構下受到照顧。第三個，有關我們臺灣的這些專家或是官員去參加世界衛生組織的會議，是我們直接去申請，跟中國無關，而且他所提出來的……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，跟中國無關，所以他們所寫的就是錯假亂訊息，我們希望社群媒體在這個時候就要扮演它的角色，直接在它下面……"],["吳部長釗燮：有，我們昨天對外的發言就是這樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：散播的這些……就直接把它寫上去。我們希望透過這樣的方式，第一時間給這些中外的媒體，讓所有的人都知道這是錯假亂的訊息，把我們嚴正的立場講出來，在每一個可能的機會。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，接下來的社群媒體，尤其是推特，針對世界衛生大會的這些相關狀況，我們也會有一系列的推文。"],["陳委員冠廷：那也希望部長能完整交接外交部的相關社群媒體給我們下一任部長……"],["吳部長釗燮：一定、一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：然後並且把這些重要的提點，用備忘錄的方式給下一任部長，讓他們知道，在社群媒體上面快速地針對錯假亂的訊息加以回應是非常重要的。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是1971年我們失去聯合國的席次，包含在1972被迫退出世界衛生組織，90年代末我們李總統採取彈性外交，都是這樣無功而返。當然，2003年SARS肆虐的時候，中國不只反對臺灣加入，沙祖康還說「誰理你們！」這些都傷透臺灣人民的心。"],["吳部長釗燮：中國政府不只是這樣子講，中國政府還在國際社會上面去說，臺灣人民的健康福祉是由中國政府來照顧的，像這種謊話他們都敢講。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，他們都敢講，我們也要敢去把他們的任何一個謊言都給予嚴正的駁斥。"],["吳部長釗燮：有，我那時候在當總統府的副秘書長，我對著國際媒體講「It's a shameless lie」。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯、沒錯，確實是這樣子。那我們從參與WHA也好，到WHO，我們每一個想做的事情就是希望臺灣can help，就是臺灣能夠扮演一個積極的角色，不管在醫療，在健康政策上面……"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含我記得好像姜冠宇醫師之前代表臺灣的世界醫師會出席執行委員會，針對抗生素的濫用、氣候變遷的議題都有發表聲明，就是說我們的參與是有目的性、有任務性，是希望對世界、對國際社會做出一些貢獻。"],["吳部長釗燮：有所貢獻，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們希望未來我們推動臺灣加入WHO的遊說團，能夠有更多外交部的人員來更積極的參與，然後去全力參與各個全球衛生機制的訴求……"],["吳部長釗燮：一定，這個一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了幫助我們自己之外，也是幫助別人。"],["吳部長釗燮：幫助國際社會，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我特別要談到臺烏的醫療合作，我們今天有談到很多跟捷克，那為什麼要跟捷克合作？"],["吳部長釗燮：最主要的原因是因為我們跟烏克蘭之間直接的聯繫是有問題的，所以必須要透過一個跟烏克蘭友好，同時跟我們的關係也非常好的國家來進行。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯。第一，他們現在是在戰爭狀態；第二，我們沒有大使館能夠直接來提供協助，我們當然需要透過友善的第三國才能將各種資源送進去，並且要知道我們要把資源運進烏克蘭本身就會遇到很大的困難，你怎麼知道俄羅斯方面會不會在各個奇怪的地方去做出干擾的動作，所以有些機密、有些密件是必須要去保護的，特別是在安全的議題上面，特別是在烏克蘭的議題上面，我們要面臨的不僅僅是俄羅斯的侵擾而已，還有包含中國的力量。習近平最近訪問歐洲的時候，專門就是想要削弱跟分化歐洲，塞爾維亞、匈牙利，哪一個不是在歐盟、歐洲裡面處心積慮的想要削弱歐盟力量的，這很明顯，所以我們希望不要憂讒畏譏，不管是透過捷克或者是其他中東歐國家對我國比較友善的，你都必須要把資源完整的運送到烏克蘭，因為烏克蘭的勝利就是嚇阻中國的能量進入臺灣的一個最好的方式。所以……"],["吳部長釗燮：這是我最近在Foreign Affairs期刊上面寫那一篇文章最主要的立論，所以委員講的我百分之百贊成。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想下次，部長，我們再一起共同撰寫去投稿好了。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：之前烏克蘭的自由民主聯盟有拜會部長，也有拜會總統跟準總統……"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：在他們拜會我的部分，它的副主席有說，因為烏克蘭囿於過去的發展模式，可能在科技跟醫療方面的科研能力還是需要更多的提升，所以我希望臺灣能夠跟烏克蘭在相關的領域合作，特別是在傷兵後續的治療，所以包含我們直接的支援，或者是包含醫師、醫護人員上面的協助，我覺得都可以透過衛福部等等，我們一起來思考合作的方向。因為我看國合會的資料，現在我們跟烏克蘭主要的合作是以農業融資為主，難民這部分是在羅馬尼亞有兒童社會心理支持的人道援助，我想未來可不可以像在越南、菲律賓、印尼、索馬利蘭等地一樣，我們有沒有辦法在烏克蘭當地，或者是周圍友好的國家推動醫事人員的訓練計畫？"],["吳部長釗燮：這方面我們正在推動當中，我們最主要是透過NGO，因為政府跟政府之間的聯繫的確是受到限制的，目前推動的項目包括燒燙傷或者是創傷症候群的治療等等，我想我們臺灣NGO的能量相當的龐大，我們外交部這邊也會協助我們的NGO來促成這個事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。接下來的問題跟外交有關係，但是跟安全議題也有點關係，考量到未來我們外交跟國家安全其實都是一體化。普丁撤換國防部長蕭依古，換了一個經濟背景出身的文人部長，我擔心的是，換上文人部長此事顯現出來的可能性，就是未來俄羅斯可能會朝經濟戰、貿易戰、資源消耗戰這方面去做處理，所以我想請教部長，也是我們未來的國安會秘書長，針對這些事件、這些已經發生、正在發生的可能的安全的挑戰，有沒有什麼相關的因應方式？你要怎麼樣跟未來的國安、外交體系合作？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員。以現在國安會的角色，它就是從事部會之間的協調，尤其是在比較重要的涉及到外交和國防的部會裡面，必須要去做一些整合，去找尋出我們最好的政策方向。所以，未來我到國安會之後，也會秉持國安會向來的角色，希望能夠跟外交部、國防部以及陸委會之間都保持非常密切而友好的聯繫，讓我們的政策是在協調之下產生的。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。最後，最近在上個月、上上個月我們訪日的時候，主要是在訪問日本的國會議員，有多位國會議員談到，針對未來的外交，特別是對日外交的部分，蕭美琴準副總統可能在一週之後就會正式上任，他們也提到，因為這一次蕭美琴準副總統在訪歐、訪美的過程當中，他們覺得有點遺憾就是怎麼沒有去訪問日本，我想請問對日關係這部分，我們的蕭副總統在外交領域上也是涉獵很多，未來會有什麼樣的方向？"],["吳部長釗燮：基本的方向就是，在外交和國防的領域上，蕭副總統也被賦予高度的責任來協助我們各個部會，協助我們國安會，所以未來不管是對日、對美等等的，我相信蕭副總統會扮演非常重要的角色，目前所有政府相關部門的首長跟蕭副總統之間也有非常好的合作關係，所以我相信他的角色以及他的貢獻度應該是會很大。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，非常期待，因為我們接下來包含林佳龍未來的外長，還有吳部長，也是未來的國安會秘書長，加上蕭副總統，基本上在外交領域上面都有相當的涉獵，特別是蕭副總統（蕭大使）曾經駐美的時間也蠻長的，我們希望對日本的關係，因為接下來可以很明顯地看到，整個第一島鏈包括菲律賓、臺灣跟日本，加強第一島鏈各國間的關係跟安全保障的合作是非常重要的，我們當然知道除了要加強對美外交之外，我們的鄰國，一個在北，一個在南，它是我們安全上面的屏障，不管在海洋資源、在陸、海、空上面的情報交換都很重要，所以我們把我們訪問國會議員的時候得到的一些資訊，我覺得還是要跟未來的蕭副總統再提到這一點……"],["吳部長釗燮：一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：針對日本的國會，特別日本跟美國之間的關係也是非常密切的，我們是希望能夠再加強對話，讓他們知道我國不僅僅重視美國，日本也是我們堅實的盟友，希望加強這一個部分，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：當然，非常謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。待會洪申翰委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘，現在請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.80284375,"end":2.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.82721875,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.750968750000002,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.796593750000003,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.500343750000003,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.238468750000003,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.215968750000002,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.81721875,"end":66.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.72096875,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.36659375000002,"end":164.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.05159375000002,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.43534375000002,"end":166.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.57034375,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.77284375000002,"end":166.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.82346875000002,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.62909375,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.32596875000002,"end":244.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.69659375,"end":223.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.23971875,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.67221875,"end":252.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.61596875,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.93159375,"end":258.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.20096875,"end":262.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.03596875,"end":303.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.10159375,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.17721875,"end":306.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.21096875,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.97034375000004,"end":311.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.30721875,"end":317.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.29846875000004,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.43284375,"end":318.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.10784375000003,"end":371.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.65596875,"end":348.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.52471875000003,"end":350.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.79721875,"end":363.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.77159375,"end":363.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.06659375000004,"end":366.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.06159375000004,"end":371.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.93909375000004,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.02346875,"end":384.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.94159375000004,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.57909375,"end":440.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.72159375,"end":448.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.75409375000004,"end":448.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.77096875,"end":456.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.55034375,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.32596875,"end":466.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.73846875000004,"end":503.26034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.41221875,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.03534375,"end":539.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.5034687500001,"end":513.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.20721875,"end":519.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.82221875,"end":526.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.7778437500001,"end":539.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.84534375,"end":539.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.1997187500001,"end":555.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.2647187499999,"end":589.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.3859687500001,"end":625.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.44784375,"end":626.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.46471875,"end":626.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.48159375,"end":634.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.8515937500001,"end":670.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.9597187500001,"end":705.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.3003437500001,"end":764.7553437500001},{"speake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他們都敢講我們也要敢去來去把他們的任何一個都給予於你的嚴正的博士我那時候在當總統府的副秘書長我對著國際媒體講It's a shameless lie沒錯"},{"start":318.331,"end":331.806,"text":"從參與WHA也好到WHO我們每一個想做的事情就是希望台灣可以幫助台灣能夠扮演一個積極的角色不管在醫療在健康政策上面"},{"start":333.228,"end":351.505,"text":"姜冠宇醫師之前代表台灣的世界醫師會出席執行委員會針對抗生素的濫用、氣候變遷的議題都發表聲明就是說我們參與是有目的性是有任務性是希望對世界對國際社會是做出一些貢獻所以我們是希望說未來"},{"start":352.626,"end":370.825,"text":"我們推動台灣加入WHA的這個遊說團能夠有更多外交部的人員來更積極的參與然後來去全力參與各個全球衛生機制的訴求那除了幫助我們自己之外也是幫助別人我特別要談到臺烏的醫療合作我們今天有談到很多跟捷克那為什麼要跟捷克合作"},{"start":372.011,"end":397.345,"text":"最主要的原因是因為我們跟烏克蘭直接的聯繫是有問題的所以必須要透過一個跟烏克蘭友好的國家也跟我們關係非常好的國家來進行第一他們現在是在戰爭狀態第二我們沒有直接的大使館能夠來提供直接的協助我們當然是需要友善的第三國來透過各種資源進入並且要知道說我們要把資源運進烏克蘭"},{"start":398.686,"end":426.738,"text":"本身就是要遇到很大的困難你怎麼知道俄羅斯方面會不會在各個奇怪的地方來去做出干擾的動作所以有些機密有些密件是必須要去保護的那特別是在安全的議題上面特別是在烏克蘭的議題上面我們要面臨的不僅僅是俄羅斯的侵擾而已還有包含中國的力量那習近平最近在訪問歐洲的時候專門就是想要削弱跟分化歐洲塞爾維亞、匈牙利哪一個不是在歐盟、歐洲裡面是"},{"start":427.358,"end":448.112,"text":"主心積慮在效力歐盟的力量這很明顯所以我們希望說不要憂慘未及不管是透過捷克或者是其他中東歐國家對我國比較友善的都必須要把資源完整的運送到烏克蘭因為烏克蘭的勝利就是嚇阻中國的能量進入台灣的一個最好的方式"},{"start":449.492,"end":466.597,"text":"這是我最近在Foreign Affairs上面寫那篇文章的最主要的那個立論所以委員講的我百分之百贊成我想下次部長我們再一起共同撰寫來去投稿好了之前烏克蘭的自由民主聯盟我想也有拜會部長有拜會總統跟準總統那我想"},{"start":467.797,"end":483.186,"text":"在他們拜會我的部分他副主席有說因為烏克蘭又有過去的發展模式那可能在科技跟醫療方面的科研能力還是需要更多的提升所以我是希望說台灣能夠在相關的領域合作特別是在傷兵後續的治療"},{"start":483.706,"end":511.627,"text":"所以包含我們的這個直接的支援或者是包含醫師上面的協助醫護人員上面的協助我作為學者可以透過衛福部等等我們一起來思考方向因為我看國和會的資料現在主要的合作跟烏克蘭的合作是以農業農資為主那難民是在羅馬尼亞有兒童社會心理支持的人到援助我想說未來可不可以在越南菲律賓印尼索馬利蘭等地一樣我們有沒有辦法在烏克蘭當地或者是周圍友好的國家推動醫師人員的訓練計畫"},{"start":514.048,"end":539.456,"text":"這個是我們正在那個推動當中那我們最主要是透過NGO因為政府跟政府之間的確是那個聯繫是受到限制的那這個推動的項目就包括說燒燙傷或者是說那個創傷症候群的這些治療等等的那我想我們台灣的那個NGO的這個能量是相當的龐大那我們外交部這邊會協助我們的這個NGO來促成這個事情"},{"start":540.276,"end":555.323,"text":"好謝謝那接下來跟外交有關係但是跟安全議題也是有點關係要考量到未來我們外交跟國家安全其實都是一體化那普丁他撤換國防部長稍微股換了一個經濟背景出身的文人部長"},{"start":556.425,"end":572.017,"text":"我擔心的是說這個文能部長他所顯現出來的可能性就是未來俄羅斯可能會朝向經濟戰貿易戰資源消耗戰這方面去做處理所以我想請教部長那也是我們"},{"start":575.32,"end":589.255,"text":"國安會秘書長,針對這些事件、這些已經發生、正在發生的可能的安全的挑戰,你有沒有什麼相關的因應方式?你要怎麼樣跟未來的國安外交體系做合作?"},{"start":590.844,"end":609.449,"text":"非常謝謝委員以現在國安會的角色它就是在部會之間的協調尤其是在比較重要的涉及到外交和國防的部會裡面必須要去做一些整合去找尋出我們最好的政策的方向"},{"start":610.229,"end":625.627,"text":"所以未來到國安會區之後也會秉持這個國安會向來的這個角色希望能夠跟外交部之間跟國防部以及陸委會之間都保持非常密切的這種友好的聯繫讓我們的這個政策是在協調之下產生的"},{"start":626.493,"end":627.794,"text":"主要是在訪問日本的國會議員有多位國會議員有談到針對未來的外交特別是對日的外交的部分"},{"start":644.95,"end":670.647,"text":"蕭美琴準副總統可能在一週之後就會正式上任他們也提到是說因為在這一次蕭美琴準副總統在訪歐訪美的過程當中他們覺得有點遺憾就是說怎麼沒有去訪問日本那我想請問這個部分對日本的這個關係那未來我們的蕭副總統在外交領域上面也是設立很多會有什麼樣的方向"},{"start":672.778,"end":693.072,"text":"這個基本的方向就是說那個肖副總統他也是被賦予這種高度的這個責任在外交和國防的這個領域上面都能夠來協助我們各個部會協助我們國安會所以未來不管是對日對美等等的那我相信那個肖副總統他會扮演非常重要的角色那我想"},{"start":693.692,"end":704.26,"text":"目前的所有的這些政府的部門的首長跟蕭副總統之間也有非常好的這種合作的關係所以我相信他的這個角色以及他的這個貢獻度應該是會很大"},{"start":706.863,"end":732.511,"text":"非常期待因為我們接下來大概是包含林佳龍未來的外長那還有吳部長那未來是官會秘書長加上蕭副總統基本上都在外交領域上面都有相當的涉獵特別是蕭副總統蕭大使曾經在美國的這個駐美的時間也是蠻長的那我們希望對日本的關係因為接下來可以很明顯的看到整個這個第一島鏈菲律賓臺灣跟日本"},{"start":734.272,"end":753.379,"text":"那我們在加強第一島鏈的關係跟安全保障的合作是非常重要的我們當然是要對美外交的加強之外我們就在我們的鄰國一個在北一個在南那他是我們安全上面的屏障不管在海洋資源在陸海空上面的情報的交換都很重要所以我們把這個我們訪問的時候國會議員訪問的時候的一些"},{"start":757.321,"end":757.441,"text":"當然,非常謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"152517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0080d20b8c77a79ae881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e4553e0a86760a0e7675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：今天我們審查農村再生條例，農業部今天的報告也特別提到到去年年底的14年來有很多的成果，既然有很多的成果，表示這個條例確實有繼續執行的必要。你的報告裡面也提到「農村再生基金係由國庫撥充」，看清楚，你自己寫的，「國庫撥充，無自有財源，基金餘額將於116年度用罄」，寫得很清楚，由於因為要用完了，所以立法院的立法委員就主動提案要去協助解決你們的問題，也就是解決農民的問題，這是應該的。這個基金的總額是1,500億，因為116年度就要用完了，當然就要去處理，就要修法啊！這個有4,500億，當然還有另外一個版本，楊瓊瓔召委的是4,500億，然後分20年，原來的是10年，這個版本是分20年來編列，就寫得清清楚楚。然後農村再生基金的用途也要擴大，包括辦理這些相關土地的利用、農宅、生活、生產、生態、文化及景觀空間規劃等等，還包括農村農產業活化各方面，這些都寫得非常詳細，這裡面到底還少了什麼，大家還可以討論。重點在這邊，今天農業部在報告裡面有寫「本部意見」，內容是依據財政紀律法第五條、第七條之規定略以，有關所提法律案增加政府歲出，需有具體指明彌補資金之來源，立法機關制（訂）定或修正法律、法規，不增訂固定經費額度或比率保障。部長，這個主計總處來寫的話都還可以，我勉強可以接受，可是農業部去寫這個，還是要稍微思考一下，要再思考一下。","你的報告有提到國庫撥充，現行條文也是一樣有規定「前項分年編列預算之撥入」，對於召委的版本我也有連署，這裡面有規定農村再生基金之來源如下：政府逐年編列預算之撥入，所以很明確啊！跟財政紀律法毫無牴觸，關於預算怎麼來有寫得很清楚，就是政府逐年編列預算撥入。關於這個部分，我當過30年的公務員，我們在以前沒有法律的時候也是要去爭取預算，不是嗎？要跟主計總處去爭取預算，看明年公務預算是不是能夠再增加，所以這裡寫得很清楚：政府逐年編列預算之撥入，這個基金的預算來源寫得很清楚啊！所以這個部分要請農業部的同仁未來在寫的時候要謹慎，主計室的人當然是這樣寫，可是你不要照抄他的報告，然後列入這個送到立法院的報告。部長，事實上你也寫得很清楚，116年度就用完了，當然要再修法啊！法律制定以後才可以籌編預算，部長，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，可能有一點誤解，我們一般的計畫通常是四年期計畫，那計畫報院如果核定的話，就會逐年編列，這是一件事情。那今天是在農村再生條例這個法律案裡面去明定一個金額，那要明定一個金額，根據財政紀律法的規定，因為經費的編列是屬於行政權，就是由行政單位來編列，然後經行政院同意以後送立法院來審核。現在因為是委員的版本直接去明列的，所以我們在這邊提出財政紀律法有這樣的一個問題，至於財政紀律法裡面的問題是怎麼樣去解釋，那可能就是看後面的情況到底是怎麼樣，我們只是忠實地去講這件事情。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，這個太過忠實了，如果用「忠實」這兩個字的話，就太過忠實了，你稍微聽我前面講的，這跟一般的法不一樣，為什麼呢？因為這個法是現有的法，然後也確實錢要用光了，116年就要用完了，所以一定要修，不然這個法就要廢止，對不對？除非你認為要廢止，所以本來就已經……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不會廢止啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，所以嘛……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有錢也不會廢止啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：錢沒有了，總是要增加嘛！何況原來就已經有了，現在就是要去增加，所以這個部分沒有問題。如果按照主計總處或者是部長剛才的說法，那立法委員、立法院就不能再提任何的法律讓經費增加，常常會提啊！像我們上禮拜內政委員會通過了地方民意代表的條例……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，那個就是照……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也是要內政部支付，增加了很多錢，內政部要增加。有很多的法律都會增加經費，所以不是這樣子做解釋的。","因為時間的關係，我還是要跟部長說，昨天立法院院會有針對公糧收購的價格討論，因為已經13年未調整，昨天立法院也通過要進行協商，所以這個部分是對農民有利，如果按照剛才的說法，我們連提都不能提，事實上它就是13年未調整，相關的基本工資、物價上漲，各方面都不斷成長，當然我們一樣可以提，不能全部都用財政紀律法來作為一個不同意的理由，所以對這個部分我們共同去努力，好不好？要支持，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一定想辦法提出一個更好的方案來協助我們的稻農，以確保他的收入。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：公務預算、政府的預算編列都是各部會要去爭取，給台電1,000億，現在總共已經4,000億了，這是用公務預算，對不對？還不是一樣？你爭取到多一點，就可以促成這些事情。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請呂玉玲委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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10:39:07","影片長度":"00:17:37","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":1057,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:39:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:21:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時21分）主席，我請秘書長和次長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長，我請教你，陳水扁前總統停止審判的規定是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為生病啦！"],["謝委員龍介：依照什麼規定呢？是刑事訴訟法就對了，生病。"],["吳秘書長三龍：刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條。"],["謝委員龍介：我現在慎重地請教你，我跟你說，你們跟蔡英文就是明修棧道，暗渡陳倉，你們搞一個大陰謀來幫阿扁特赦兼脫罪，我希望司法院不要當幫兇，你們不要成為共謀者。我現在請教你，在停止審判的期間，追訴權的時效是有繼續進行，還是沒有繼續進行？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們刑事廳這個……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！這是你的業務欸！"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個沒有繼續、沒有繼續。"],["謝委員龍介：主席，他是司法院的秘書長耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為我們今天有主管廳也出席。"],["謝委員龍介：聽不懂！來，聽不懂，你聽得懂嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：今天我們刑事廳也有來。"],["謝委員龍介：不用啦！你是秘書長！拜託！你怎麼會這樣啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為有時候我們各廳……"],["謝委員龍介：停止審判期間，追訴權時效是進行，還是不進行啊？主席，時間停下來！你是怎麼回事啊！"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["吳秘書長三龍：不是，因為這種有時候要很精準啦！要很精準，所以有時候……"],["謝委員龍介：各位全國的好朋友、各位臺灣的鄉親，我剛剛講了蔡英文跟陳水扁，甚至包括清德兄，你們就是在進行這個大陰謀，不是只有特赦而已！今天如果只有特赦，我們還勉強接受，你幫助他脫罪，你不知道嗎？亂來！停止審判期間，就是我們其他的追訴期，你的追訴權時效是有在進行，還是沒有進行？拜託，你是司法院的秘書長！來，次長，請你說明一下，今天我讓你當老師。"],["黃次長謀信：追訴權時效會因為起訴跟停止審判而停止進行，停止進行到一定期間之後，最後停止期間消滅也會再繼續進行，達到追訴權時效第八十條三分之一的話，會接續繼續進行他的時效。"],["謝委員龍介：所以追訴權的時效就會繼續進行嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：他要停止審判期間超過刑法第八十條三分之一的期間。"],["謝委員龍介：那他從哪一年開始停止？你剛剛有說了。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長，你知道他何時開始停止審判？"],["吳秘書長三龍：他現在停止審判有四個案件，那期間……"],["謝委員龍介：對！那時間超過了嗎？次長，現在的追訴權是進行，還是不進行？"],["黃次長謀信：現在停止審判，當然追訴權是停止的。"],["謝委員龍介：追訴權停止？"],["黃次長謀信：他是停止審判期間……"],["謝委員龍介：那超過時效沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：這個要司法院依個案再去計算，但從刑事上看起來，目前是還沒有，但從個案上我不清楚，因為個案是法官要去判斷的，我不能夠代法官去判斷追訴權時效的計算。"],["謝委員龍介：停止審判四件啦！到最後查扣的，我等一下再問你。陳水扁有疾病不能到庭，他都可以幫女兒出庭，做主持人、開節目、直播，笑咪咪的，他就不能到庭來出庭，如果是這樣，秘書長，這是什麼原因？"],["吳秘書長三龍：原則上這個還是屬於審判核心事項，基於審判獨立是由個案承審法官……"],["謝委員龍介：審判獨立，你認為合理嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：本於權責來判斷。"],["謝委員龍介：你認為合理嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個由個案的權責判斷……"],["謝委員龍介：個案歸個案，不談個案嘛，你認為這種狀況合理喔？你不是口口聲聲都說要司法改革，你認為合理嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為基於審判獨立，那麼……"],["謝委員龍介：審判獨立是很獨立嘛，已經獨立了好幾年了！"],["吳秘書長三龍：不是，我們司法行政……"],["謝委員龍介：他這種狀態下不出庭，你認為合理嗎？你個人認為合理嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個是由個案的承審法官依權責來判斷。"],["謝委員龍介：你當作來這裡把我們「裝肖仔」！那你認為這個法官是恐龍嗎？還是把我們百姓當成傻瓜？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個是個案，由承審法官本於權責，屬於……"],["謝委員龍介：我問你有沒有合理，你就在那邊避重就輕、答非所問，你還給我微笑，你故意來這邊「抓鰻」！"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒有，我是很嚴肅啦，很嚴肅來看待這種問題。"],["謝委員龍介：我們要來也要看很多資料，秘書長，每次我問你，你都這樣，你這樣讓臺灣人民對司法的改革失去信心，我沒有騙你！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為司法行政有一定不逾越……"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你講，你們就是故意的啦！停止審判以後，他現在已經定讞的案子特赦了，然後停止審判到最後無法審判，這樣就變成追訴期過了，屆時剛好「脫手尾支七」，你們實在很厲害，你們做這種事情當作臺灣人都是瘋子就對了！","那我再請問你，他個人停止審判，那其他的人呢？他也沒有生病，為什麼不能開庭？這是根據什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個還是屬於審判……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，根據哪一條啊？法律哪一條啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：個案的承審法官本於權責會來判斷。"],["謝委員龍介：你們司法院有沒有在下級管考？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為司法行政有一定的分際。"],["謝委員龍介：有沒有管考嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然……"],["謝委員龍介：有沒有管考業務啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些當然都要管考的啦……"],["謝委員龍介：一般法官的案件如果超過3個月沒有進行，你們就開始管考了嘛，行政管考，有沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個就恢復到……"],["謝委員龍介：有沒有啦？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就會管考嘛！"],["謝委員龍介：有嘛！那這個案子你們有沒有管考嘛？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個管考有一定分際啦！管考跟司法行政之間我們有一定的分際在，當然……"],["謝委員龍介：你有沒有對這個法官進行檢討啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就回復到剛剛，這個都是屬於審判核心事項，審判獨立。"],["謝委員龍介：你放了阿扁一個，其他的共犯也全部都一起放走，這樣不是放水，不然什麼叫放水？現在不談阿扁嘛，總統要特赦他嘛！難道總統是連其他人都特赦嗎？你已經比總統的特赦權還大，你赦了好幾個，總統也才特赦一個，對不對啦？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明……"],["謝委員龍介：現在連總統都不必發布特赦令，其他人都沒有罪了啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，如同剛剛說明的，這個還是回復到……"],["謝委員龍介：個案？"],["吳秘書長三龍：個案審判的部分。"],["謝委員龍介：好啦，個案，你回去你家研究個案啦！秘書長，我們這樣沒辦法對話下去，你請坐、你請坐啦！拜託一下啦！以後你就不要再來立法院說要司法改革了，真的，你會漏氣啦！","次長，檢察司有來嗎？司長嗎？次長，現在這個案件不法的所得已經執行完了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，犯罪所得的部分幾乎執行完畢了。"],["謝委員龍介：4個還沒確定的案件，就表示現在扣的錢都是那4個還沒確定的案件嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，原則上是。"],["謝委員龍介：部長怎麼沒來？"],["黃次長謀信：部長沒來，剛剛有跟委員會報告了。"],["謝委員龍介：我2個月前就在這裡問他了，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我有看轉播，你問他是不是有接受到指示。"],["謝委員龍介：對！我問說，依照特赦法第六條，總統有權力請行政院長要求業務單位來研議。我問他說，有去總統府做這個研議嗎？他說沒有；我說2月份有沒有？他說沒有；那1月份有沒有？他說有，有去過，1月13號選完之後有進去。","我現在很慎重，你是常務次長嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["謝委員龍介：你要摸你的良心回答臺灣人民，我請教你，因為這是密件，他們都很愛用密件，不是你啦。我請教你，法務部有收到總統府的咨文說要研擬特赦陳水扁的案件嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，整個法務部的公文基本上我都會看到，我到目前為止沒有收到、看到任何一件……"],["謝委員龍介：每一件公文你都能看得到？"],["黃次長謀信：原則上，除非是特殊密件，特殊密件有特殊處理，就我本身接觸的，我是沒有看到。"],["謝委員龍介：你可能沒有看到？"],["黃次長謀信：有可能我不知道。"],["謝委員龍介：你有可能沒有看到。今天是113年5月15日，我很慎重跟你……為什麼我要問你這個問題？因為我很有把握有啦，但是我要問你，如果你個人有看到，你不能在這裡說沒有。"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有，我百分之一千萬沒有看到。"],["謝委員龍介：你個人沒有看到，但你有可能也看不到，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：這個我就不知道。"],["謝委員龍介：有沒有可能有公文，但你看不到？"],["黃次長謀信：當然有可能有公文我沒看到，當然有可能。"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼會這樣，你知道嗎？因為這很機密，1月份就處理了，但我現在相信你的，在立法院的公報將來會留下紀錄。"],["黃次長謀信：沒問題、沒問題！"],["謝委員龍介：陳水扁的案件現在有4件停止審判，他是什麼理由停止審判？"],["黃次長謀信：這是司法院的業務，他是按照刑訴法第兩百九十四條……"],["謝委員龍介：他說他生病所以不能審判，但他可以替他的女兒出庭打官司、可以主持節目、還可以邀請人去訪問，他有沒有要邀請我，我是不知道啦，他如果要邀請我去，我也可以去跟他說一下，恭喜他馬上得到特赦。這樣的話，為什麼不能出庭？當然，你會說這是法院的問題嘛，對不對？","有關法院的認定，我現在要請教你，停止審判以後要怎麼樣可以繼續審判？"],["黃次長謀信：訴訟法第兩百九十八條有規定，停止原因消滅的話，他當然可以，當事人本身也可以申請法院繼續審判。"],["謝委員龍介：他也可以申請就對了。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["謝委員龍介：第兩百九十八條就是審判的原因消失了，法院應該繼續審判，對不對？然後當事人亦得申請繼續審判，請問有沒有這一條？"],["黃次長謀信：有，剛才講的。"],["謝委員龍介：那我請問你，檢察官是不是當事人？"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官在訴訟法上的確是當事人。"],["謝委員龍介：依照第兩百九十八條，他是不是當事人？"],["黃次長謀信：看條文，如果指當事人的話，檢察官是當事人。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有喔，我們主席在這裡，你不要……","依第兩百九十八條，當事人得申請繼續審判，請問檢察官是不是當事人？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上這個個案在審理當中，公訴檢察官在個案上的確有表示意見，看是不是原因……"],["謝委員龍介：他是不是當事人嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：他是，他一定有表示意見……原因是否消滅，請法院審酌。"],["謝委員龍介：是就好，既然檢察官是當事人，他可以聲請法院繼續審判，請問法務部，為何你們一直以來都不聲請？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛有跟委員報告了，我們公訴檢察官在個案上他有提請法官要注意原因是否已經消滅了。"],["謝委員龍介：是否……應該要注意，你沒有聲請要繼續審判喔。"],["黃次長謀信：他有沒有提一個聲請……"],["謝委員龍介：你沒有聲請喔！"],["黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告，它是不是提一個聲請狀的形式，我不清楚，但個案上他的確有提請法官要注意這件事。"],["謝委員龍介：有聲請還是沒有聲請，這是很簡單的事情，你可以跟本院說明嗎？有或是沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛已經跟委員報告了，有沒有聲請這個形式我沒有把握，因為這是個案嘛，但是在個案上，我知道他有提請法官要注意是否原因已經消滅這個事情，公訴檢察官有做到這點。"],["謝委員龍介：那停止審判的這4個案件，不法所得總共有多少，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為他還沒有判決確定，沒有辦法去估他的不法所得，因為他沒有判決確定，但是我們起訴的時候……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有辦法估，你為什麼給人家扣那麼多錢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，起訴的時候，二次金改的部分是4億。"],["謝委員龍介：那個時候多少錢？"],["黃次長謀信：4億。"],["謝委員龍介：那是國泰嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對，國泰併世華。"],["謝委員龍介：那買官的呢？"],["黃次長謀信：買官一千多萬吧。"],["謝委員龍介：陳敏薰買官的？"],["黃次長謀信：一千多萬……"],["謝委員龍介：那罰鍰呢？就這個案件、這4個案件……","4億，那你為什麼扣他8億？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為他還有刑的部分，可能有罰鍰，他可能有……不是罰鍰，罰金！他有可能有罰金。所以不法所得會宣告多少、罰金刑多少……"],["謝委員龍介：你在今天下班以前，把你們針對這4個案子所有不法所得總共羅列了多少數目送來給本席，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：還是我們送給委員會？"],["謝委員龍介：可以，送到委員會。"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["謝委員龍介：我最後一個問題請問，有關陳水扁被赦免這個案子，褫奪公權有沒有一併赦？"],["黃次長謀信：褫奪公權是不是及於的話，就要看赦免的範圍。"],["謝委員龍介：這是總統的特權，所以我現在很明確問，畢竟17日就要特赦了。"],["黃次長謀信：赦免有兩種，看是「刑」之執行的赦免，還是「罪刑」都赦免？罪刑都赦免的話，當然他的褫奪公權會被赦掉。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道。現在只赦刑，但刑有牽扯到褫奪公權。"],["黃次長謀信：刑的部分，如果赦免只赦免「刑」的部分，按照刑法第三十七條第五項，是在赦免後開始計算他的……"],["謝委員龍介：他不會講只赦刑的部分，現在就是你們已經作業到這一次，本次蔡英文總統對前陳總統的特赦─刑，但褫奪公權的部分有沒有作業？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛才已經說了，如果只赦免「刑」的部分，則褫奪公權的計算期間開始，係依刑法第三十七條第五項規定，赦免後開始計算他的褫奪公權。所以原來確認判決褫奪公權多久，就從那個時間開始起算。"],["謝委員龍介：所以赦免以後開始計算？還是赦免以後，連褫奪公權也沒有了？這很重要！因為很多人支持阿扁再選啊！下一任就要把賴清德幹掉啊！"],["黃次長謀信：所以我說赦免分兩種，如果總統要赦免的話看是赦免哪一種。"],["謝委員龍介：現在因為你們是業務單位，這件事在你們手上作業，所以部長今天沒來真的不對！因為他知道啊！"],["黃次長謀信：赦免的範圍要總統決定，如果有赦免的話。"],["謝委員龍介：如果要赦免他的褫奪公權，你現在也可能不知道？但17日可能會公布有，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有辦法預測。"],["謝委員龍介：就是這樣！我說可能性就這樣，是不是？如果總統特意的話，連褫奪公權也赦的時候，你可能到今天都還不知道，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我不知道。"],["謝委員龍介：感謝主席。"],["主席：接下來我們請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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時效是有在進行還是沒有進行拜託 你是我的秘書長好 來書長"},{"start":182.807,"end":192.657,"text":"追訴權時效會因為起訴跟停止審判而停止進行。那停止進行到一定期間之後,停止期間會消滅,會再繼續進行。達到追訴權時效80條的三分之一的話,會繼續進行它的時效。"},{"start":199.483,"end":221.516,"text":"所以追訴權的時效就會繼續進行嗎?他要停止審判期間超過刑法80條的三分之一那他從哪一年開始停止?你剛剛有說了秘書長你知不知道他講是開始停止審判?這個他現在有停止審判有四個案件這樣時間超過了嗎?秘書長現在現在的追訴權"},{"start":229.696,"end":256.543,"text":"是進行還是不進行?現在停止審判當然追訴前是停止的追訴前停止?那超過時效沒有?這個是要司法院他的個案再去計算但從形式上看起來目前是還沒有但個案上我不清楚因為個案是法官他要去判斷我不能夠帶法官去判斷這個追訴前是要計算停止死刑了這狗尾仔齁這查庫的我等一下再問你齁"},{"start":258.339,"end":273.637,"text":"那陳水扁有疾病不能到庭喔他都可以幫女兒去出庭啊做主持人、朱祁鈴啊開節目啊、直播啊、笑BB啊然後他就不能到庭來出庭那這樣秘書長這是什麼原因"},{"start":282.843,"end":308.213,"text":"這個還是 原則上這個還是屬於審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁審判獨立有個案成審法官你認為合理嗎本於前者來判你認為合理嗎那因為這個由個案來個案歸個案不談個案嘛你認為這種狀況合理欸你不是口口聲聲都說被司法改革你認為合理嗎"},{"start":309.113,"end":326.942,"text":"因為基於審判獨立齁審判獨立啦是很獨立嘛已經獨立了好幾年了他這種狀態下不出庭你認為合理嗎?你個人認為合理嗎?這個是由個案的審審法官骨離前者來判斷阿你是認為這個法官是恐龍嗎?"},{"start":332.93,"end":333.61,"text":"我是很嚴肅來看待這種問題"},{"start":358.056,"end":386.712,"text":"我們要來也要看很多資料啊秘書長你每次我問你你都這樣你這樣給台灣人民對司法的改革失去信心我沒便宜因為司法行政有一定不意願我跟你講你們就是故意的啦你們就是故意的停止審判以後他現在已經定讞的案子特赦了然後停止審判到最後沒得審判"},{"start":388.186,"end":407.985,"text":"啊你大變成追溯奇軌啊是高端脫臭不及漆你們實在有夠厲害的你創這個抗逃你動作台灣人都笑的就對了那我再請問你他個人停止審判啊那其他的人呢他也沒有生病為什麼不能開庭"},{"start":410.646,"end":411.166,"text":"那你們司法院有沒有在下級管考?"},{"start":430.878,"end":452.976,"text":"有沒有管考嗎?有沒有管考業務啊?法官一般法官的案件如果超過三個月啊沒有進行啊,你們就開始管考了嗎?行政管考有沒有?有沒有啦!有嘛!那這個案子你們有沒有管考嗎?"},{"start":454.775,"end":483.204,"text":"那這個這個管考那就是說這個有一定分際啦有一定分際司法行政管考跟司法行政之間我們有一定的分際在啦分際在那當然那你有沒有對這個法官進行檢討啊那就回復到剛剛這個都是屬於審判核心事項你放了阿扁一個其他的共犯全部也都一起放走這樣不是放罪沒什麼叫放罪啦"},{"start":486.264,"end":490.947,"text":"現在不談那邊嘛 總統要特赦他嘛 難道總統是連其他人都特赦嗎你已經比總統的特赦權還大了 你赦了好幾個 總統也才特赦一個"},{"start":501.838,"end":530.271,"text":"對不對啦這個就向委員說明你現在連總統都不必發布特赦令其他人都沒有罪了啦喔就向委員說明這個就就剛剛說明的就是說這個還是回憶到個案個案審判好啦好啦你個案你回去你老公叫個案啦喔秘書長我們這樣沒辦法對話了你先坐你先坐啦拜託啦以後你人忙再來立法院說要司法改革啦真的啦你會漏氣啦"},{"start":532.754,"end":561.246,"text":"處長 那個檢察司敢不敢來喔齁齁齁 處長你 齁現在這個 處長 案件齁不法的所得已經執行了嗎對 犯罪所得的部分已經執行 幾乎執行完畢啦啊 市的案未確定的案件 這樣就表示現在考的錢 都是那市的案未確定的案件嘛 對不對"},{"start":562.623,"end":584.952,"text":"對 原則上是這樣喔 補充怎麼沒來喔 部長沒來 剛剛有跟委員會報告了我 我兩個月前我就在這裡問了喔你知不知道我有看轉播 你問他是不是有接受到指示對 我問說依照特赦法第6條 總統有管理請行政委員要求任務單位來延期"},{"start":593.117,"end":602.303,"text":"我問他說有去總統府做這個經濟嗎?他說沒有!我說二月份有沒有?他說沒有!那一月份有沒有?他說有!有!有過了!選了的時候,這月十三選了的時候,有立委,好來!我現在又很心中,你是政府處長嘛!對!你要問你的良心,把台灣人民回答!我請教你齁!"},{"start":621.96,"end":626.685,"text":"因為這是密件啦,密件啦,他們都很愛用密件,不是你啦我請教你,法務部有收到總統府的諮問,說要延期特赦單位列席的案件的公文嗎?"},{"start":639.363,"end":663.296,"text":"跟委員報告整個法務部的公文基本上我都會看到我到目前為止沒有收到看到每一件公文你都能看得到原則上那除非特殊密件對特殊密件有特殊密件就我本身最初的是沒有看到你可能沒有看到有可能你有可能沒有看到今天是113年5月15日我很慎重跟你為什麼我要跟你問這個問題因為我很有把握有啦"},{"start":664.136,"end":685.176,"text":"阿但是我要問你你個人如果你有看到你不能在這裡說沒有我沒有我百分之一千萬沒有看到你個人沒有看到但你有可能也看不到是不是這我就不知道沒有就是如果是密切就是你有沒有可能沒有公文但是你看不到當然有可能有可能我沒有看到當然有可能有可能當然有可能"},{"start":686.129,"end":706.472,"text":"為什麼會這樣你知道嗎?因為這是很機密啦一過分就處理了啦但我現在相信你的在立法院的公報將來會留下記錄啦沒問題沒問題但最近的案件現在有四件嘛停止審判對那這樣它是什麼理由停止審判?"},{"start":708.95,"end":725.676,"text":"他是按照司法院的業務啦 但按照刑訴法294條所以說他有判罰嘛 所以不能審判嘛那這樣他可以替員長出庭去判官司 可以主持節目還可以邀請人去訪問 他不知道要邀請誰 我是不知道啦他如果要邀請我去 我有怎麼可以來跟他說一下 共識一下 讓他在場特赦"},{"start":733.513,"end":739.038,"text":"如果這樣為什麼不能出庭?當然你會說這是法院的問題嘛,對不對?來如果這樣法院的問題我現在要請教你,停止審判以後,要怎麼繼續可以再審判?"},{"start":749.914,"end":778.491,"text":"訴訟法298條規定他停止這個原因消滅的話他當然可以那當事人他轉身也可以申請法院來繼續審判喔 因為他可以申請就對了好 298條就是審判的原因消失法院應該繼續審判對不對然後當事人亦得申請繼續審判請問有沒有這一條那我請問你檢察官是不是當事人"},{"start":780.893,"end":792.957,"text":"來檢察官他在訴訟法上他的確是當事人?298條他是不是當事人?看條文 他是當事人的話檢察官他是當事人?我們主席在這裡喔 你問298條這個當事人得申請繼續審判請問檢察官是不是當事人?"},{"start":802.243,"end":819.817,"text":"呃 各位報告事實上齁 這個個案在審理當中檢察官公訴檢察官在個案上他的確有表示意見 呃 看這是不是原因他是不是當事人嘛對 他是 他一定有表示意見是不是因事本消遣而被法院審訟那既然檢察官是當事人 他可以申請法院繼續審判請問法務部"},{"start":822.939,"end":836.857,"text":"為何你們一直以來都不申請?跟委員報告 我剛剛有跟委員報告了我們在個案 我們公務檢察官有在個案上他有提醒法官是否要注意是否原因是已經消滅了是否 應該要注意喔 你沒有申請繼續審判喔"},{"start":838.887,"end":866.252,"text":"你沒有申請喔對 跟委員報告他是不是提一個申請狀的形式我不清楚但個案上他的確有提醒法官要注意這件事你有申請沒有申請這很簡單的事情你可以跟本意說明嗎有或是沒有我剛已經跟委員報告了有沒有申請這個形式我沒有把握因為他個案嘛但是在個案上我知道他有提醒法官要注意這一個是否原因已經消滅這個事情公訴法 公訴檢察官他有做到這一點"},{"start":866.812,"end":889.905,"text":"那停止審判的這四個案件不法所得的都算有多少你知不知道因為他還沒有判決確定他沒有辦法去估他的不法所得啦因為他沒有判決確定但是我們起訴的時候沒有辦法估你為什麼給人家扣那麼多錢起訴的時候我們的二次經改的部分是4億那是國泰嘛那買官的呢"},{"start":897.982,"end":913.595,"text":"陳敏興買官的那罰還呢?就這個案件這四個案件啦四億那你為什麼扣他八億?因為他還有可能刑的部份他有可能罰還啊他可能不是罰還罰金他有可能罰金啊"},{"start":914.505,"end":915.786,"text":"陳水扁被赦免此奪公權有沒有一併赦?"},{"start":945.01,"end":966.272,"text":"呃,此頭公權是不是即宜的話,這要看赦免的範圍這是總統的特權,那我現在很明確問你,十七就要寫啊?因為我們赦免有兩種嘛,他是刑之執行的赦免,還是罪行都赦免罪行都赦免的話,當然他的此頭公權會被赦掉我知道嘛,現在只赦刑,但是刑有牽扯到此頭公權嘛"},{"start":966.752,"end":968.713,"text":"他不會講指涉刑的部分他現在就是你們已經作業到這一次本次蔡英文總統對錢城總統的"},{"start":983.599,"end":1002.508,"text":"特赦、刑、刺駝公權的部分有沒有作業?跟委員報告我剛才已經說了他如果指赦免刑的部分他刺駝公權的計算期間開始要從刑法37條第5項規定赦免後開始計算他的刺駝公權所以他原來確定辦決有刺駝公權多久從那個時間點開始"},{"start":1003.869,"end":1027.799,"text":"所以赦免以後開始計算還是赦免以後連此奪公權也沒有這很重要因為我要支持很多人要支持阿扁還在算阿下一任就要把賴清德幹掉阿所以我說看他赦免了 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media，我們的推特到目前為止已經有五十幾萬個follower，以我們外交部的這些follower來說，很多都是政治人物和國際的媒體，如果說他們追蹤我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！光是上一次中國進臺灣啤酒這一篇，我覺得你們的回應就非常好，在社群平臺、社群媒體上，本來就應該用幽默的方式回應嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：幽默的方式，對，沒有錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：中國進臺灣啤酒，你們就說：啊，你們錯過了自由美好的滋味！很好啊，這個所有人一看就知道這是什麼意思，就跟你今天用強烈的語氣說，我一定跟你戰到底，真的就像剛剛楚茵委員說的，人家在群眾場上可以這樣說，那我們在幽默的社群平臺上不能這樣寫，哇！這真的是雙標啊！這實在是雙標。","老實說，因為社群媒體讓我們的能見度擴大之後，確實臺灣的訴求各個外媒也都可以看到。所以部長，我真的、真的強烈地建議，不管是在這些社群網路的發文也好，比較特殊性的、重要性的、有被大家看到的，你應該收集成冊，甚至是你本人在非常多的國際媒體上面也受過專訪，我認為這個其實應該要把它彙整起來……"],["吳部長釗燮：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：彙整起來之後，其實就是一個我們這8年外交的定調，甚至未來也可以參考。部長，這個部分我覺得不是你個人的成績，所以我覺得你不用不好意思，這個是你代表國家，我認為應該要收集成冊，部長，這是立法委員的質詢，你可以同意嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員的建議，我們這邊來跟同仁討論一下。在今天早上剛剛發生一件事情，就是前天有總統贈勳給我，我也發在我們的推特上面，捷克的參議長在那則message下面有留言，這就是我們臺灣政府跟其他國家的高層利用社群媒體互動的一個很好的機會，這是可以強化我們的public message和外交。"],["蘇委員巧慧：社群媒體有它的語言風格模式，本來就要用這樣，就像你去捷克，你要說捷克語，就像你去日本，你要說日語，就像你去美國要說英語，在社群平臺上，當然是用社群平臺的語言來說話，大家才能夠聽得懂啊，這是最基本的道理嘛。所以我必須說，其實如果在這裡的質詢是能夠就後面的意義層次來討論，會比較高端一點。過兩天要舉行國中會考，連國中會考都不考填充題跟是非題了，我們現在都考素養，素養這兩個字知道嗎？好啦，部長，最後，剛剛……"],["吳部長釗燮：委員剛剛問的就是說，把我們接受國際媒體訪問集結成冊的事情……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，我認為應該要做。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個應該要做，尤其我對這個是相當地自豪，就是接受國際媒體訪問，到目前為止，這個禮拜五還會再接受1次，一共是328次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為不是只有你，你是代表著大家，代表著臺灣。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，我帶領我們所有外交部的同仁集體對國際來發聲，讓我們臺灣的聲音能夠讓國際社會聽見。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。最後，部長，我猜到你今天早上收到了禮物嘛，是臺灣當季的水果乾，那個品牌我是沒有看過，但現在正是芒果的季節……"],["吳部長釗燮：對，要吃生鮮芒果。"],["蘇委員巧慧：芒果乾也是滿好吃的，但我覺得其實大家等一下就可以開來吃了，因為有些蜜餞可以開，而且應該要拿出來趕快開，趕快拿出來、趕快吃掉它，但有些蜜餞是不能開的，這些大家應該都很清楚，這是基本的，公務人員也都很清楚，上面有一個那麼大的字叫做「密」的，那種叫「密件」，開了會有問題，此密件非彼蜜餞，所以我勸大家，那個蜜餞應該滿好吃的，可以趕快吃一吃。而且如果有看過哈利波特的人都知道啦，所有四大學院的人都在為人類而努力，只有史萊哲林的人常常是在霸凌同學，所以這個要選對啊，謝謝部長，加油！"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：做給人民看，謝謝。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.86596875,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.56909375,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.087843750000001,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.83909375,"end":40.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.359718750000006,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.77346875,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.18659375000001,"end":192.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.33409375000002,"end":198.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.98721875,"end":241.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.91721875000002,"end":247.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.58721875,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.73721875,"end":270.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.17846875000004,"end":274.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.16971875,"end":276.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.12284375,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.45596875,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.50659375000004,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.67909375,"end":281.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.59034375000005,"end":284.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.47159375,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.68659375000004,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.51721875000004,"end":300.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.36034375,"end":296.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.43971875,"end":325.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.28034375000004,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.13659375000003,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.21659375,"end":338.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.19846875,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.94846875,"end":412.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.25159375000004,"end":370.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.22284375000004,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.79659375,"end":393.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.13534375,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.49784375,"end":442.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":480.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.49971875000006,"end":456.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.24471875,"end":468.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.91971875,"end":469.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.11659375000005,"end":478.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.55096875000004,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.49534375,"end":486.41909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.69596875,"end":501.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.88534375,"end":509.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.40284375000005,"end":553.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.71284375,"end":525.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.63659375,"end":552.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.80096875,"end":567.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.4153437500001,"end":564.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.70596875,"end":569.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.72284375,"end":569.3259687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.39,"end":0.73,"text":"主席 請吳部長"},{"start":12.602,"end":39.227,"text":"部長好部長今天特別到國防外交因為是您在任期上最後一次到立法院備詢那其實國防外交尤其是在您領導的外交部門真的這8年來確實是做了非常非常多的努力當然這不只是部長一個人的努力這是全體外交部外交相關領域的各位所有同仁共同的努力"},{"start":39.747,"end":54.953,"text":"所以才有今天我們有資格有機會有能耐可以說一聲啊我們真的讓世界看見台灣世界的關鍵字一定有台灣我相信部長你一定認同我這句話你帶領了一個了不起的團隊是吧"},{"start":56.431,"end":81.99,"text":"非常謝謝委員的肯定那的確最近這幾年如果說除了這些外交的挫折之外不管是國際社會上面什麼重要的這種高峰會幾乎沒有例外都會提到我們台灣那在國際的這種重要的場合台海的和平穩定也都是大家共同的這個語言所以對於這種努力的這個結果我們同仁大家都感到非常的欣慰"},{"start":82.09,"end":85.912,"text":"2016年我剛剛有這個機會來到立法院的時候那個時候我們從不敢想像會有如此多的國會議員議長訪問團到立法院來做國會的交流與參訪我們也不敢相信世界上的期刊拿到了這些台灣講到了台灣的時候是會講到台灣的產業台灣的文化台灣能夠對世界衛生做出的種種貢獻這些都是我們過去不敢想像的"},{"start":111.403,"end":112.564,"text":"我們更不會想到說這個美國這麼重要的亞太駐親會直接在公開的場合上面說聯合國的決議中國解讀有錯誤其實台灣是應該有機會可以參加WHA這些都是我們過去不敢想的"},{"start":127.29,"end":151.204,"text":"那這些真的都是外交同仁方方面面的努力而且我在這裡呢也必須說其實在外交事務上面各位外交同仁你們在承平時期但是領導的帶領的其實就是國家的尊嚴你們在外交場域上捍衛了我們自己的國家就等同於是在戰場上的三軍將士一樣因為有你們的守護"},{"start":152.205,"end":173.591,"text":"所以我們的軍人不用真正到第一線的戰場謝謝大家的辛勞你們交到的朋友越多台灣就越安全這是今天在這裡部長最後一次備詢我藉著跟部長的對話也再一次感謝全體所有包括基層外交部同仁真的真的非常的感謝大家"},{"start":174.051,"end":190.944,"text":"因為我知道大家其實尤其是在部內也好到了部外每三年一派有些人是攜家帶眷孩子太太不適應外面的環境有些人是拋妻棄子拋夫棄子也可以啦但總而言之每一個人的辛勞"},{"start":192.505,"end":210.618,"text":"國人在適當的時候其實回過頭來看都知道謝謝外交部因為不只是大的國家處境甚至是每一個國人在國外遇到急難的時候我們處理過多少的急難救助有多少國人在外面護照掉了臨時生病了受傷了"},{"start":211.298,"end":211.338,"text":"﹚蘇巧慧﹚"},{"start":245.041,"end":270.541,"text":"我必須說因為基於這樣的感謝所以當我聽到這個在國防外交委員會的質詢質詢與備詢之間的題目是這樣的時候我感到蠻不可思議的我以為國會殿堂上面的質詢應該是更有水準比如說部長我現在問你部長請問外交部有幾個社外交部經營有幾個社群媒體"},{"start":271.786,"end":299.569,"text":"還不少臉書推特部長我問你具體的請給我數字部長你的stress有多少粉絲了我還不確定部長這是公開資訊你為什麼沒有掌握呢是不是這樣這是需要嗎部長我認為我應該問的是部長在現在這個時代外交部是不是應該經營社群媒體社群媒體對國家的外交影響力到底有多少你可以回答我們嗎"},{"start":301.192,"end":322.42,"text":"非常謝謝委員提出來以推特來說因為推特是以國際為面向以國際為導向的一個社交媒體我們的推特到目前為止已經有五十幾萬個追蹤者我們外交部的這些追蹤者來說很多都是政治人物和國際的媒體"},{"start":323.6,"end":348.662,"text":"如果說他們追我們的話你剛是上一次中國禁台灣啤酒這篇我覺得你們的回應就非常好在社群平台上面社群平台上本來就應該用幽默的方式回應嘛中國禁台灣啤酒你們就說你們錯過了自由美好的滋味很好啊這個所有的人一看就知道這是什麼意思就跟你今天說你用強烈的語氣說我一定跟你站到底欸真的就像剛剛楚映委員說的啊"},{"start":351.225,"end":360.452,"text":"這個人家在群眾場上可以這樣說啊我們在幽默的社群平台上不能這樣寫哇這真的是雙標啊這實在是雙標那老實說因為社群媒體讓我們的能見度擴大之後確實台灣的訴求那各個外媒也都可以看到所以部長我真的真的強烈的建議喔不管是在這些社群網路的發言發文也好"},{"start":377.645,"end":377.745,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":401.194,"end":413.039,"text":"這部分我覺得不是你個人的成績所以我覺得你不用不好意思這個是你代表國家我認為應該要收集陳冊部長這是立法委員的質詢你可以同意嗎非常謝謝委員的這個建議那我們這邊來跟同仁討論一下"},{"start":418.301,"end":443.592,"text":"在今天早上剛發生的一件事情就是說我前天有那個總統政訓給我那我也發在那個我們的推特上面捷克的參議長在那個message下面有留言那這個就是我們臺灣政府跟其他國家的這個高層利用社群媒體互動的一個很好的這個機會那這個是可以強化我們的public messaging和那個外交"},{"start":443.832,"end":459.652,"text":"他的語言風格模式本來就要用這樣就像你去捷克你要說捷克語你去日本你要說日語就像你去美國要說英語在社群平台上當然是用社群平台的語言來說話才能夠大家聽得懂這是最基本的道理"},{"start":460.293,"end":464.975,"text":"所以我必須說啦其實如果在這裡的質詢能夠是就後面的意義層次來討論實在是會比較高端一點過兩天要舉行國中會考連國中會考都不考填充題跟是非題了我們現在都考素養素養這兩個字知道嗎好啦那部長我最後啦"},{"start":479.642,"end":504.777,"text":"那個委員剛剛問的就是說那個把我們接受國際媒體系列撐撐的這個事情這個應該要做啦尤其是我對這個是相當的自豪就是接受國際媒體訪問到目前為止這個禮拜五還會再接受一次那一共是有328次你是代表著大家啦代表著台灣啦我帶領我們所有外交部的同仁集體對國際來發聲讓我們台灣的這個聲音能夠讓國際社會來聽見"},{"start":509.861,"end":528.699,"text":"最後部長剛剛我看到你今天早上收到了禮物是台灣當季的水果乾這樣的狀況那我覺得那個看起來品牌我是沒有看過但現在正是芒果的季節芒果乾也是蠻好吃的但我覺得這其實大家等一下應該可以開來吃了"},{"start":529.4,"end":553.049,"text":"因為有些密件可以開啊而且應該要拿出來趕快開趕快拿出來趕快吃掉它有些密件是不能開的這些大家應該都很清楚基本的公務人員也都很清楚上面有個那麼大的一個字叫做密的那種叫密件開了會有問題此密件非彼密件啊所以我勸那個等一下大家那密件應該蠻好吃的可以趕快吃一吃而且喔"},{"start":553.809,"end":553.989,"text":"謝謝部長,加油"}]}},{"id":"152514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c05215e064ddf93b25881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45b39433cafc38c7155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:23:44 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10:37:57","影片長度":"00:14:13","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":853,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:37:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:23:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時24分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。昨天公糧收購算是向前跨了一大步，昨天包括台灣民眾黨，我代表台灣民眾黨的提案，還有楊瓊瓔的提案昨天都逕付二讀，接下來應該是一個月內就要找部長協調了，今天我們期待部長在這個協調過程不要一毛不拔、寸草不「升」，好不好？不要一毛不拔、寸草不「升」。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們共同的目標就是想辦法讓稻農的收入能夠確保，甚至於提高……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！你不要再放那個錄音帶，已經講了一百次了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個是很重要的。"],["張委員啓楷：我是跟你講昨天已經有一個新的進展，就是院會逕付二讀，本來台灣民眾黨要求1公升要調升至少5塊錢，楊瓊瓔的是要8塊嘛，對不對？我聽到內幕說行政部門是行政院那邊可能1公斤要調3塊，是不是？還在討論中？"],["陳代理部長駿季：完全沒有這個消息，我跟委員說明，每調1塊錢要花4.32億，至少！大概有這個數字……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，其實台灣民眾黨是一個理性、務實、科學的政黨，我們是去看了一些必要的條件，包括成本的增加，這段時間13年沒調，物價上漲15%，農藥跟肥料上漲25%，漲更多的是基本工資，13年來基本工資漲了將近1萬，就是53%，所以漲5塊錢不過分。沒關係，反正我們一個月內會再協商，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這個部分拜託一下，請你多照顧我們的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會提出一個大家都滿意的方案。"],["張委員啓楷：好，期待你的滿意的方案，不過最重要的是不要一毛不拔，寸草不「升」！","我們來問一個歷史性……今天希望是一個歷史性的詢答，進口蛋已經堆3、4個月了，今天會不會有一個很明確的一口價？不要再一日三市了，你上禮拜說了一個很重要的，這個關鍵字叫做10億，對不對？你看我左邊這個5億6,278萬，另外的4億7,509萬，這都是以前你給我的資料，你上個禮拜講了一個數字，過期的進口蛋全民買單是10億嗎？這個10億怎麼來的？這10億是怎麼來的？你要明確喔！因為你今天不是只有回答立法院，審計部……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候審計部……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在這10億裡面包括我們進口蛋的1億5,800萬裡面一些雞蛋的費用的差額補貼，差額補貼大概將近兩億多，另外有一部分是冷凍液蛋，因為它會出售跟它價差的補貼，我們會處理，然後銷毀的部分，上一次也講了銷毀的部分總共是四億四千多萬，其中還有倉儲的費用是2,352萬，委託加工的部分是3,367萬，還有蛋品調度的部分，還有相關的行政費用，還有銷毀的費用、堆肥的費用，這些東西加起來是10億，這個我特別……"],["張委員啓楷：很清楚對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，剛才這些資料是透過我們……因為會計帳最清楚啦！會計帳所列的這些項目……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個是很重要，這個數目不會再變了嘛，對不對？一個細目都非常清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["張委員啓楷：你等一下給我一份，然後也給記者一份，我們今天就把它定下來，我們清楚把它定下來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有、沒有，我覺得這個……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我要提醒你一點，審計部也還是會查你的帳，這個數目不要又跳動……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我還是要跟委員說明，所有的雞蛋調度是由畜產會，畜產會提報計畫來，我們農業部從會計的角度去核這樣的一個經費項目，這個部分我們會後會提給委員，這沒問題。但是我覺得在這個時間點，我們會想辦法在我們的公開……"],["張委員啓楷：雞蛋的專區。"],["陳代理部長駿季：在專區裡面去做適度的公開，而不是說要給委員、給記者，因為那麼多記者，我不知道要該給誰，我們會在公開資訊裡面做相關的一個處理。"],["張委員啓楷：有，所以今天這個詢答非常重要，我們過期進口蛋已經鬧了一年多了，今天很清楚，全民買單就是10億，就定調下來。本席要更清楚的不是只有你剛剛講的這個細目，本席很清楚的要求兩個東西，過期雞蛋採購金額要有詳細的列表，包括進口國、數量、進口日期跟到岸價格，這個你本來就是要做，對不對？你再清楚給我一份資料；第二個，倉儲……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，因為很多東西都已經在去年度的官網裡面呈現了，我們都有定期的更新，有進口，我們就會把那個數量，有個報表的數量會增加……"],["張委員啓楷：就把你有做的東西，依照剛剛講的規格，進口國、數量、進口日期跟到岸價格給我。第二個，倉儲的部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我先跟委員說明，因為進口日期每一批、每一批，那個已經屬於在調查了，我個人覺得我們本身目前相關的規定是……至少對農業部，我們有經過會計還有一些同仁去瞭解了以後，是一個正常的行為，沒有錯，畜產會本身當然有一些作業上必須精進的地方，但如果每一筆、每一個批號都要去調，那個是大工程，相對的，現在我們畜牧司還有很多、很多的事情要做。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我跟你說啦！其實不是今天我要求你，我覺得審計部去查一定也是要這個細目。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對！"],["張委員啓楷：你回去想一下，你覺得可以給，你就給我；不行的話，我們再進一步討論，好不好？另外，倉儲那一塊我希望你是分年度跟幾個批次，好不好？我等一下再……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我能夠給的，我一定會給，原則上我能夠給的一定會給。"],["張委員啓楷：你要讓民眾可以相信你的話，這個要求是非常清楚的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我相信民眾本身，因為會計的報表是最精準的，如果連會計報表都覺得不準的話，那政府的威信在哪邊？"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，我們也看你的報表啦，好不好？","另外一個很重要的就是去化過程到底能不能昭公信嘛！我剛剛去看你們的網站，有進步了啦！上禮拜是3個檔案，今天有6天的檔案，對不對？有進步，可是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對不起，我還是跟委員講，整個過期雞蛋的銷毀有第三方全程的監控，包括地方的衛生局、地方的相關人員，還有我們有一部分的政風……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道，現在……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個東西如果沒有辦法取得公信，那什麼影片其實只是一個讓人家知道我們的過程。"],["張委員啓楷：雙管齊下啦！可是影片是我們到屏東去的時候，經濟委員會要求的，決議……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道……"],["張委員啓楷：你當初也在現場，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我承諾，但因為它的檔案太大了，所以我們現在想辦法拉成另外一個硬碟，然後讓需要的人去下載，而不是線上瀏覽，因為那會讓我們的頻寬掛掉。"],["張委員啓楷：好，事實上你最重要的是要分類啦！就是要有日期，然後有出來的倉儲跟那個去化廠跟整個數量，好不好？你們目前已經有6天的量了……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們完成就會上去、完成就會上去。"],["張委員啓楷：你就照這個格式，你們現在上去的是data啦！就是還不是information嘛，對不對？那你們就是要分類啊！檔名應該有個日期、有個倉儲、有個去化廠、有個數量……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我真的沒有辦法依照委員要求的這樣檔名，因為檔名一改，由於檔名跟我們的檔案有分類的邏輯，但是相對的，我們把影片po上去，就表示我們做了這些事情，如果要根據你要求的日期、倉儲、去化廠、數量，那相對我們所有的檔名要重改。"],["張委員啓楷：不過部長，你們現在放上去的，我剛剛看到的就是6天，只有日期嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，有日期、有倉儲的地點。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我進去看一下你們那個日期，這樣到底……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我相信會讓人家知道。"],["張委員啓楷：不過我們還是來看怎麼樣進一步的分類啦，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：再來，我要問你雞蛋的事情，事實上我們談那麼久，現在就是整個雞舍包括雞蛋的產量要增加嘛！我給大家看一個圖，我們雞舍的這個，部長，你看看最左邊跟最右邊，臺灣蛋雞的每年產蛋量，最左邊的2016年跟最右邊的2022年竟然是一樣的，一年只生產了187萬顆，這代表什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不對吧！"],["張委員啓楷：6年沒進步，是嗎？怎麼會不對？這是你們的網站……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有、沒有，你說一年多少？187萬顆，不對吧！"],["張委員啓楷：是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一天就將近2,400萬了。"],["張委員啓楷：數目是一樣的，最重要的是你有沒有發現左邊的2016跟右邊是一樣的，這表示什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個是產蛋率。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以表示我們雞舍的升級跟產蛋量是確實不夠，另外……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：日本365天幾乎每天都在生蛋啊！我們兩天才生1顆，大概51%嘛！這要從產量跟雞舍升級去做，好不好？這個我有明確的要求，你給我這兩個資料，訂定出增加多少禽舍升級改善的年度計畫，這要有個計畫，你計畫也沒有嘛！第二，要訂定出密閉式水簾禽舍跟非開放的產多少量，占我們臺灣總量的多少，好不好？這個我給你。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我先跟委員說明一下，我們現在的產蛋率平均大概快七成，但是水簾式的跟密閉式的可以到八成、到九成喔！所以委員要求的沒有錯，我們要讓雞舍升級，現在雞舍升級裡面，從去年開始有213廠已經來申請了，有73廠已經開始執行了，但是每一個執行都要有一個輔導團隊去協助它，所以它不是申請了我們就給，因此後續一定有213廠會執行。"],["張委員啓楷：所以就是它到底有多少，你一年裡面要多少……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會提供後續的資訊。"],["張委員啓楷：你就提供這兩點就好了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：最後我問一個簡單的，上禮拜我向你拿2022年中央畜產會自日本專案進口3,081萬顆，採購金額2億2,500萬的資料，你資料好了嗎？要給我了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，上個禮拜開完會，我重新去檢視委員所要的資料，因為各委員也很多，那我覺得我們該提供的一定會提供，因為我個人覺得除非法律規定不可以，包括那個合約，沒有錯，第三方不同意，但是後來我看了條文，如果有適當的理由、如果農業部可以認定的時候就可以提供，我就決定會提供，因為我覺得我們不是因為要隱藏、隱瞞什麼樣的一個訊息，只是因為對法律上的規定的見解可能不一樣，所以我後續都會提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝部長，確定了喔！一個禮拜內給我還是多久可以給我？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該可以吧！"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜還是要更早一點？你已經……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我上禮拜已經……"],["張委員啓楷：你前幾天跟黃國昌、跟我在爭執的就是有第三方，他不給我，你現在解開了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我現在把它解開了，但是相對的就是，我上個禮拜就跟他們講了啦！其實我現在最擔心的就是他們資料的核對，如果數字錯掉那就麻煩了，會讓人家覺得可能是因為誤繕的關係，所以我會要求他們資料要準確，然後才提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這算是很大的突破啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：多久要給我？一個禮拜還是3天？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我儘可能一個禮拜給你，如果沒辦法給你，我們一定會事先跟你講是什麼原因沒有辦法做到，就像影片一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：你不是說已經突破了，怎麼還不給我？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，就像影片一樣，我沒有辦法馬上上網嘛！還必須去轉檔。"],["主席：部長，你不用這麼客氣，委員要的資料不要在這邊詳細到連什麼規格都討論，好不好？你們就要依循委員所需要的，你們的幕僚要跟委員去討論清楚，即使你的網站沒有辦法全部大翻，但是委員要的資料還是要給他，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有。"],["主席：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：不要在這邊……大人不要在這邊討論那個，連規格什麼的……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！主席在講的那個是我們在屏東作的決議嘛！"],["主席：對。"],["張委員啓楷：說要上傳，照規定來啊！"],["主席：對啊！上傳那是一定要上傳，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，當然我今天還是要謝謝你，因為這算是突破了，好不好？我們已經追了兩個月……"],["主席：你看委員都很客氣。"],["張委員啓楷：我們跟你們要資料都不給，今天突破了，照這個規格給我喔！採購廠商名稱、採購數量及採購合約，一個禮拜。"],["主席：請你們的幕僚一個禮拜內去跟委員說明清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：但是有一項，我們到屏東考察回來作成的決議，委員當然會追，行政部門你們不要再推給……那是什麼單位？"],["陳代理部長駿季：畜產會。"],["主席：畜產會……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們沒有推啦！"],["主席：你今天是農業部部長來這邊報告，你們應該事先跟他們拿資料過來才對啊！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，現在是檔案太大啦！"],["主席：那就這樣子，一個禮拜內要給張委員，張委員的個性大家都很清楚，會繼續追，本席也會繼續追。"],["張委員啓楷：對，追、追、追，會追到底。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：兩個都很老實。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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«農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":203.76,"end":203.78,"text":"案。」"},{"start":219.046,"end":238.975,"text":"兩千三百五十二萬然後委託加工的部分是三千三百六十七萬然後還有蛋餅調度的部分還有相關的行政費用還有消費的費用堆肥的費用這些東西加起來是十億我跟委員說明我剛才這些資料是透過我們因為會計帳最清楚會計帳最清楚那會計帳所列的這些項目"},{"start":249.924,"end":250.724,"text":"法院主席"},{"start":270.621,"end":293.019,"text":"我還是要跟委員說明,所有的雞蛋調度是由區長會,然後區長會提報計畫來,我們農業部從會計的角度去合這樣的一個經費的項目。那這個部分我想我們會後會提給委員,這沒問題。但是我覺得在這個時間點,我們會想辦法在我們的公開,就是我們的什麼?"},{"start":293.942,"end":294.743,"text":"短短短短短短短短"},{"start":311.974,"end":314.337,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":332.194,"end":359.341,"text":"我跟委員說明齁因為有很多東西都已經在去年度的那個官網裡面就呈現了就是我們都有定期的有進口我們就會把那個數量有個報表數量會增加進口國數量進口日期跟大案價格給我第二個我跟委員先說明齁因為你的進口日期變成每一批每一批那個已經屬於在調查了"},{"start":360.201,"end":379.852,"text":"我個人覺得說我們基本上我們本身現在目前的相關的規定至少對農業部我們有經過會計還有一些同仁去了解了以後是一個正常的行為當然沒有錯續產會本身有一些作業上必須精進的地方那如果說每一筆每一個批號都要去調那個是大工程"},{"start":380.612,"end":385.696,"text":"那相對的現在我們畜牧師我們還有很多很多的事情要做。我能夠給的我一定會給,原則上我能夠給一定會給。"},{"start":404.97,"end":427.604,"text":"讓民眾可以相信你的話,這個要求是非常清楚的。我相信民眾本身因為會計的報表是最精準,如果連會計報表都覺得不準的話,那政府的威信在哪邊?好,我們也看你的報表了,好不好?那另外一個很重要的就是那個去化過程,到底能不能招公信嘛。我剛才去看你的網站,有很薄啦,你訂那個白色的檔案。"},{"start":428.644,"end":453.837,"text":"現在今天有六天的檔案對不對?我還是沒有對不起我還是跟委員講齁整個過期雞蛋的消費有第三方全程的監控包括地方的衛生局地方的相關的那個人員還有我們部分的政府有一部分這個東西如果沒有辦法取得公信那什麼影片其實只是一個讓人家知道我們的過程"},{"start":455.899,"end":471.877,"text":"我承諾所以我現在因為因為他的檔案太大了所以我們現在想辦法拉成另外一個硬碟然後讓同讓需要的人去下載而不是線上瀏覽因為那會讓我們的憑光掛掉"},{"start":475.801,"end":503.819,"text":"實際上你最重要要分類啦就是要有日期然後有出來的倉儲跟那個去化廠跟整個數量好不好你目前已經有六天的量了對我們完成就會上去到這個格式你現在上去的是data啦就是還不是information嘛對不對那你就是要分類啊你黨名應該有個日期有個倉儲有個去化廠有個數量我跟委員說明齁我真的沒有辦法依照委員要求的這個黨名因為黨名一改因為黨名跟我們的檔案有分類的邏輯"},{"start":505.36,"end":521.672,"text":"但是相對的我們把影片PO上去表示說我們做了這些事情那如果說要根據你的日期倉儲企劃場數量那相對的我所謂的黨名要重改對,有日期有倉儲的地點對,我相信會讓人家知道還是很困難,我們來看什麼叫進一步的問題啦好不好再來,我問你幾兩件事啦事實上我們談那麼久"},{"start":534.292,"end":557.792,"text":"現在就是整個雞舍包括雞蛋的產量要增加我給大家看一個圖我們雞舍的這個你看我們在最左邊跟最右邊我們台灣的蛋機每年的產蛋的量最左邊2016年跟最右邊的2022年竟然是一樣的一年只生產了187萬顆這代表什麼?兩年沒進步嗎?"},{"start":562.031,"end":563.712,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":581.515,"end":606.003,"text":"這是產蛋率所以表示那個我們那個雞舍的升級跟那個什麼產蛋確實不夠人家365天雞每天都在生蛋啊我們兩天才生一顆嘛大概51%嘛這個要從產量跟那個雞舍升級去做好不好這個我有明確的要求我看一下上一張好不好你給我這兩個資料訂出增加多少禽舍升級的改善的年度計劃你這要有個計劃你計劃沒有嘛"},{"start":607.443,"end":620.053,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案："},{"start":632.563,"end":649.703,"text":"已經來申請了那73場已經開始執行了但是每一個執行都要有一個輔導團隊去協助他所以他不是申請了我們就給所以後續一定有213場會執行所以就是他到底有多少你一年裡面要多少年對我們會提供後續的資訊請問一個簡單的問一個簡單的"},{"start":653.107,"end":662.15,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":680.17,"end":697.743,"text":"我個人覺得除非說法律規定不可以包括那個合約沒有錯第三方不同意但是後來我看了條文如果有適當的理由如果農業部可以認定的時候就可以提供那我就決定會提供因為我覺得"},{"start":698.544,"end":708.585,"text":"我們不是因為要隱藏隱埋什麼樣的一個訊息只是因為法律上的規定的見解可能人家不一樣所以我後續的話都會提供給委員"},{"start":709.525,"end":716.786,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我上禮拜已經對我現在把它解開但是相對的就是那些我上禮拜就跟他們講了啦其實我對現在擔心的就是齁他們資料的核對"},{"start":734.195,"end":756.24,"text":"如果數字錯掉,那就麻煩了。會讓人家覺得可能是因為誤算的關係,所以我會要求他們那個資料要準確性啦,然後才提供給委員。我盡可能一個禮拜可以給你,如果說沒辦法給你,我們一定會事先跟你講,什麼原因沒有辦法做到。就像影片一樣,我沒有辦法馬上上網嘛,那必須去轉檔。"},{"start":761.821,"end":784.147,"text":"那個部長你不用這麼客氣委員要的資料不要在這邊詳細什麼連規格都討論好不好那你們就要運行委員所需要的你們的幕僚要跟委員去討論清楚即使你的網站沒有辦法全部大翻但是委員要的資料還是要給他好不好"},{"start":784.727,"end":785.647,"text":"二、本院委員"},{"start":800.154,"end":813.376,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草"},{"start":827.199,"end":827.459,"text":"事務局局長"}]}},{"id":"152513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152513","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0baf5aea499d69584ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e4542ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:14:45 - 10:28:27","影片長度":"00:13:42","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":822,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:28:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:14:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時14分）謝謝主席，有請吳部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。有始有終，對於艱難的外交工作而言，其實也是這樣，我相信一棒接一棒，在您手上所打下的基礎，下一棒會做得更好。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：今天既然流行所謂的open book隨堂考，面對您最後一次質詢，我想我也來開個隨堂考好了，我等一下會秀幾張照片，看看您認不認識照片上面的人。首先從您鏡頭上所看到的最右邊開始，這一位您認識嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是……"],["林委員楚茵：時任國民黨總統候選人，他在造勢場合上面講了四個字叫做「恁爸等你」，您知道是誰吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：我們的院長……"],["林委員楚茵：我們立法院的院長對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：我應該澄清一下是你們的院長。"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["吳部長釗燮：sorry，是我們國家的立法院長。"],["林委員楚茵：好的，中間這一位過去我在跑新聞的時候，也號稱立法院小辣椒，他在立法院好像也曾經被認為是爆粗口，叫做「恁祖媽」啦！再來就是剛剛也有質詢您的徐巧芯委員，我會秀這張照片是因為……這些都是電視臺上面的截圖，有的是講閩南語，有的就是用發音，像以老子來說，如果以我這個年紀，我不知道現場的大家有沒有讀過那一篇叫做「老子都不老子了」？竟然出現在課本裡面，所以課本是公然叫我們講不好的話嗎？我想先考部長的是，老子等不等於「恁爸」？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常非常的接近，如果不等於的話，也是非常非常的接近啦！"],["林委員楚茵：只是語言的不同嘛，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：只是語言的不同。我記得以前還有一位也是高層的政府官員，他在對外說明的時候說「爺兒們」，跟「恁爸」是很接近的意思，只是在不同背景之下的一種呈現。我剛剛講的臺灣話的這個字，是因為我們鄉下人……我是來自於鄉下，這個根本我是沒有辦法忘記的，因為我本身就是鄉下長大的，鄉下人見面碰到，在講到自己的時候都是用這個字來形容，所以沒有任何不敬的意思。"],["林委員楚茵：其實本席會提問這個問題就是說，我相信語言的使用不應該因為講臺語，或者是人家講的中文、華語，同樣的稱謂就會被認為好像不禮貌，但確實是看場合要把話講清楚。今天本席也希望在質詢的過程當中，因為我們要做國際外交，我們也得講對方聽得懂的話，在國際外交、國際組織當中，我們要用他們的語言，包括為什麼蕭美琴大使，我們未來的副總統，在美國可以表現得這麼好，就是因為他所使用的語文、語彙，雖然同樣都是英文，但是可以讓美國友邦的友人感受到那種親切感。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒錯。"],["林委員楚茵：所以本席希望的是……你也好好解釋一下，因為剛剛前面幾位都沒有讓你解釋，因為我是記者出身，我非常瞭解，在最後的餐會當中，大家一定就是覺得接下來可能工作上面沒有機會見到，但是私底下大家可能是好朋友，請問這個彩帶是你自己做、自己掛上去的嗎？還是……"],["吳部長釗燮：不是……"],["林委員楚茵：怎麼會有這樣的照片出來？因為現在MOFA Taiwan社群媒體當中出現了，以至於好像變成是你在挑釁，你在挑釁特定的委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：你在挑釁特定的國家嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。我今天已經說明過幾次，我在這邊也說明一下，就是上禮拜五，我跟跑外交線的記者聯誼會有一個茶敘，也跟他們做一個很深入的背景說明，大家都很高興，其中聯誼會的會長他就先做了這一個東西要呈送給我，這個本意就是一個幽默。對於這種幽默的話，大家的相處就會更好，所以他幽默來，我也幽默回去，意思就是這樣子而已。"],["林委員楚茵：所以現在被無限上綱說你好像是對著某個委員來……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有，不是那個意思。"],["林委員楚茵：也不是？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是那個意思。"],["林委員楚茵：好，話說清楚最重要，誤會就是要解開，外交上不也是這樣嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["林委員楚茵：但是有些事情我覺得還是要講清楚，前面我們就當作是一個open book隨堂考，你算過關，但是有關於我們簽訂的協定跟備忘錄，確實是有機敏之分，我大概整理了第10屆第8會期到現在第11屆第1會期當中，外交部送到立法院的相關議約，包括現在最紅的烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護量能，被打上黃色的部分都是以備忘錄或密件的方式來處理，有些其實是可以公開，請問這個為什麼是密件？為什麼有些可以送來、不是密件？它所評定的過程是什麼？因為我也曾經在這裡問過國安局蔡局長，他說這是由主官來決定，現在可不可以讓我們知道為什麼？難道說因為這是有採購嗎？還是說因為在採購的過程當中就有錢的問題？但是我們來看一下，比如說跟土瓦魯外交人員的訓練，或者是外交度假打工，這個並沒有採購的合約，但是為什麼有些是密件？評等的等級到底是什麼？難道說真的是外交部隨便開心嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：不是，要列什麼樣的密等，都是我們處理的同仁跟他們單位的長官，必須要仔細地去檢視和考慮說這個事情傳出去的話，會不會影響到我們跟這一個友好國家的關係，或者是影響到我們在國際社會受到中國更多的打壓，在我們的同仁討論決定之後，覺得這個事情沒有問題了，那我們就用一般件來處理；另外有一些就是覺得這個公開來講，可能會吸引到中國的打壓，會影響到我們的雙邊關係等等，那就會用密件來處理。有些是NGO之間的簽訂，這個不是在國家締約法上面的規範，那這個就不能夠用密件來處理，所以是有不同的方式。每一個要列密件或者是不列密件，都必須要經過我們同仁很仔細地去討論。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以言下之意就是我們在處理外交工作的時候，因為臺灣特殊的困境，包括中國的因素在內，就以捷克或者是其他我用黃色所標註的部分來講，都是因為一旦先公開了，可能會有其他的狀況橫生枝節，或是造成我們的友邦在處理的程序上面備受壓力，甚至可能破局，是不是？"],["吳部長釗燮：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員楚茵：但是密件就不能監督嗎？我要來……"],["吳部長釗燮：還是可以監督。"],["林委員楚茵：我們依法論法，其實我們國際合作是依法有據，包括國際合作發展法相關的規定都有特別提到，就是會定期的跟合作的國家及機關來共同辦理計畫的監督是嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["林委員楚茵：所以在監督的過程中，剛剛前面委員也有特別提到包括你採購的項目、金額怎麼使用，然後包括別的國家都已經公開等等，如果立法院要監督的話，我們開秘密會議、機密會議，外交部可以來報告嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：當然可以，不管是公開或者是秘密，只要委員會的主席發函到我們這邊來，我們就必須來面對立法院。"],["林委員楚茵：好，也就是剛剛提出來的這些疑問或疑惑，其實都可以在立法院當中被監督？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯。"],["林委員楚茵：如果現在有委員提出來說這些國外期刊已經登出來了，這會不會變成是我們反過來指揮人家？當你們在訂定相關監督的時候，跟對方如何達成一個共識？畢竟當我們把錢捐到我們友邦的過程中，人家就是在內政當中做處理，當他們在內政當中處理的時候，我們怎麼訂定監督的議程能夠透明公開，但又不影響、干涉到他國內政？"],["吳部長釗燮：有幾點跟委員說明，有一部分必須讓人民知道，比如我們跟捷克之間簽訂一個MOU，這個MOU簽好之後，我們在去年12月1號也有告訴國人這一個事情，我們跟捷克一起去協助烏克蘭，這是必須要公開的。有關內容的部分，也就是捷克這家期刊的部分，其實他們對外透露的跟我們新聞稿的性質是一樣的。至於這個約本身，如果它是列密的話，我們這邊不會對外提供，捷克方面也不會對外提供。至於監督方面，其實每一個MOU裡面都有成立一個共同監督委員會來監督執行，這個監督委員會也有我們的人參與，這是共同監督的事情，所以立法院監督我們，或者是我們政府在監督這一件事情的執行，或者是對方要跟我們報告，這些事情我們都必須要有百分之百的掌握。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我知道這個事情鬧到連捷克、我們的友邦都會認為奇怪，臺灣好像先捐了一筆錢給他們，之後換成國會議員在質疑用錢不當，這種感覺很像是我們伸手去講人家家裡的事情，但是因為錢來自於我們這裡，所以我很明確地想問，如果按照這個合約，最後他們還是會告訴我們怎麼使用這一筆善款……"],["吳部長釗燮：會，他們會給我們一個報告。"],["林委員楚茵：這個報告大概是什麼時候會出來？"],["吳部長釗燮：大概每半年會有一個報告，這叫做期中報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，每半年會有期中報告，如果以今年1月、2月你們送進來簽訂的期程，也就是可能在6月、7月就有他們第一批使用善款的狀況，會有一個報告？"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我們其實還是期待這個報告，因為有關於機密的部分，我們還是要遵守外交部所核定的密件等級，我們希望未來也不要在國際上做一些MOU協定的時候，變成是人家質疑我們的一個部分。","另外，我在想中美之間的貿易戰到底會不會影響到臺灣？今天的最新訊息是拜登宣布中國產的這些產品要加徵關稅，當然他也強調要維護臺海和平，其中拜登宣布180億的中國進口商品要開徵新關稅的部分，外交部事前有掌握嗎？有瞭解嗎？怎麼來評估現在全球在面對中國的時候，尤其是以美國為首所形成的整體貿易戰對臺灣的影響？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員的這個問題，有關美方針對中國產品加徵關稅的部分都有在做討論，也一直有讓我們知道那個部分的狀況。至於細節的部分，比如要加徵100%、25%等等，我們事前有一些資訊，但沒有百分之百的掌握，只是知道這個方向確定了。即使現在是川普政府，而不是拜登政府，我相信他們的方向也差不多，他們做這個事情的最主要原因是因為他們覺得中國方面有不當的國家補貼，造成不公平的貿易競爭，所以針對這種不公平的貿易，他們就用關稅作為手段來處理這些問題。至於對臺灣會不會有所影響，有可能正面、也有可能負面，負面的部分是會不會造成國際經濟的動盪，因為很重要的是我們是一個依賴國際貿易的國家，這也有可能影響、波及到我們臺灣。但是正面的部分是如果我們臺灣的類似產品具有競爭力，而且我們沒有做不公平競爭的話，相信我們臺灣在國際社會上的產品流通還會更多。"],["林委員楚茵：我關心這部分是因為接下來520之後，新內閣要上任，像這樣的問題可能不只是外交，還包括經濟、我們整體的供應鏈跟臺灣對外貿易的相關部分，可能就要請我們未來的秘書長多多關注這個部分，提供更多的資訊，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，以後還要多跟委員請教。"],["主席：接下來請蘇巧慧委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.55409375,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.63846875,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.52409375,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.582218750000003,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.15471875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.715343750000002,"end":22.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.53721875,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":39.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.39596875,"end":42.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.70784375,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.06221875,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.711593750000006,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.74534375,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.782843750000005,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.13659375,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.60034375,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.88721875,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.83221875,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.23284375,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.05971875,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.67534375,"end":62.56971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.143468750000004,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.89409375000001,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.41284375000001,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.31909375000001,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.69784375,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.99284375,"end":91.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.71284375,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.66846875,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.46096875,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.72221875000001,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.00471875000001,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.23659375000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.49784375,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.47596875,"end":124.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.85971875000001,"end":158.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.65596875,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.95471875,"end":167.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.32534375,"end":169.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.89471875,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.91534375,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.69034375,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.62784375,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.67721875,"end":215.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.21659375000002,"end":217.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.14034375000003,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.31284375,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.03409375,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.90721875000003,"end":225.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.07159375,"end":240.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.18534375000002,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":239.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.03971875000002,"end":241.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.30971875,"end":243.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.31784375,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.58284375000002,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.14409375,"end":279.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.31221875,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.94471875,"end":309.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.44159375000004,"end":288.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.31596875,"end":311.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.67409375,"end":325.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.17409375,"end":338.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.08346875,"end":362.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.92784375,"end":413.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.29971875,"end":427.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.25534375,"end":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主席有請吳部長請吳部長委員長部長好 這個有始有終我想對於這個艱難的外交工作其實也是這樣我相信是一棒接一棒那麼在您手上所打下的基礎下一棒會做得更好那麼今天既然流行所謂的這個open book隨堂考那麼"},{"start":27.574,"end":54.682,"text":"面對您最後一次質詢我想說那我也來開個隨康考好了我等一下會秀幾張照片看看您認不認識照片上面的人首先從您鏡頭上所看到的最右邊開始這一位您認識嗎?實任國民黨總統候選人他在造勢場合上面講了四個字叫做林北丹利他現在是他現在您知道是誰吧?"},{"start":56.086,"end":84.794,"text":"我們的院長我們立法院的院長對不對我應該澄清一下是你們的院長對對對是我們國家的立法院長好的那這個中間這一位呢算是過去我在跑新聞的時候也號稱立法院小辣椒啦那麼他好像在立法院也曾經說過了被認為是爆粗口叫做林周罵啦好那再來就是剛剛也有質詢您的他"},{"start":85.574,"end":108.986,"text":"講的這位徐巧欣委員那麼我會秀這張照片是因為這些都是電視台上面的截圖有的是講閩南語但是也有就用發音像以老子來說如果以我這個年紀我是不知道現場的大家有沒有讀過那一篇叫做老子都不老子了竟然出現在課本裡面所以課本是公然叫我們講"},{"start":110.486,"end":110.606,"text":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":132.66,"end":158.303,"text":"跟那個林北是很接近的這種意思只是說在不同的這個背景之下的一種呈現那我剛剛講的這個臺灣話的這個字是因為我們鄉下人我是來自於鄉下那這個根本我是沒有辦法去忘記的因為我本身就是鄉下長大的那鄉下人在碰到見面的時候在講到自己的時候都是用這個字來形容所以沒有任何不敬的意思"},{"start":158.703,"end":182.148,"text":"好其實本席會提問這個就是說我相信語言的使用不應該因為講台語或者是怎樣講的中文華語同樣的稱謂就會被認為好像有不禮貌但是真的確實是看個場合把話要講清楚今天本席也希望說在質詢的過程當中因為我們要做國際外交啊我們也得講"},{"start":182.948,"end":210.801,"text":"對方聽得懂的話在國際外交國際組織當中我們要用他們的語言包括為什麼蕭美琴蕭大使我們未來的副總統在美國可以表現的這麼好那就是因為他所使用的語文語彙雖然同樣都是英文但是可以讓我們的美國友邦的友人覺得感受那種親切感所以本席希望的是來你也好好解釋一下因為剛剛前面幾位都沒有讓你解釋因為我是記者出身我非常了解"},{"start":211.741,"end":233.344,"text":"最後的這個參會當中大家一定就是覺得欸接下來可能工作上面沒有機會見到但是呢私底下大家可能是好朋友請問這個彩帶是你自己做自己掛上去的嗎還是怎麼會有這樣的照片出來因為就是這個我們現在講的MOFA Taiwan的這個社群媒體當中出現了"},{"start":234.525,"end":247.917,"text":"然後以至於呢好像變成是你在挑釁你在挑釁特定的委員嗎沒有你在挑釁特定的國家嗎沒有我今天已經說明過幾次我在這邊也說明一下就是上禮拜五"},{"start":249.057,"end":274.791,"text":"我跟那個跑外交線的這個記者聯誼會跟他們做一個查序也跟他們做一個很深入的這個背景說明那大家都很高興那其中聯誼會的會長他就先做了這一個東西要呈送給我那這個本意就是一個幽默那對於這種幽默的話那大家的相處就會更好所以他幽默來啊我也幽默回去意思就是這樣子而已"},{"start":275.242,"end":294.021,"text":"所以現在被吳釗燮剛說你好像是對著某個委員來沒有不是那個意思也不是不是那個意思好我希望這個話說清楚最重要訴會就是要解開嘛外交上不也是這樣嗎但是有些事情我覺得還是要講清楚前面我們就當作是一個open book你算過關好"},{"start":295.222,"end":311.632,"text":"但是有關於我們簽訂的這些所謂的協定跟備忘錄其實確實是有機敏之分我大概整理了我們第10屆第8會期到現在第11屆第1會期當中外交部送到立法院的相關議約包括有現在最紅的烏克蘭重建"},{"start":315.05,"end":340.508,"text":"現在被打上黃色的部分其實都是以備忘錄或密件的方式來處理那麼有些其實是可以公開請問這個為什麼是密件為什麼有些可以送來不是密件他所評定的過程是什麼因為我也曾經在這裡問過國安局的蔡局長他說這個是由主官來決定現在可不可以讓我們知道那為什麼"},{"start":342.569,"end":362.186,"text":"難道說是因為這是有採購嗎還是說是因為採購的過程當中就有錢的問題但是我們來看一下比如說跟土瓦魯外交人員的訓練或者是外交度假打工這個沒有採購的合約但是為什麼有些是密件所以平等的等級到底是什麼難道說真的是外交部隨便開心嗎"},{"start":363.147,"end":386.732,"text":"不是,那個要列什麼樣的這個密等都是我們的那個處理的同仁跟他們單位的這種長官必須要去仔細的去檢視和考慮說這個事情出去的話會不會影響到我們跟這一個友好國家的關係或者是說影響到那個我們在國際社會上面受到中國更多的這些打壓"},{"start":387.532,"end":408.884,"text":"那在我們的同仁討論決定之後覺得說這個事情沒有問題了那我們就用一般件來處理那另外有一些就是說覺得這個公開來講可能會吸引到中國的這種打壓會影響到我們的雙邊關係等等的那就會用密件來處理那有些是這種NGO之間的這個簽訂那這個不是在那個締約"},{"start":413.467,"end":419.049,"text":"所以言下之意就是我們在處理外交工作的時候因為台灣特殊的困境包括中國的因素在內就以像捷克又或者是其他我現在黃色所標註的都是因為一旦"},{"start":442.515,"end":457.785,"text":"先公開了可能會有其他的狀況恆生之節或是造成我們的友邦在處理的程序上面備受壓力甚至於可能破局是不是但是密件就不能監督嗎我要來就是我們依法論法其實我們國際合作是依法有據包括我們國際合作發展法相關的規定都有特別提到就是會"},{"start":468.371,"end":468.711,"text":"﹚林楚茵﹚"},{"start":489.051,"end":494.136,"text":"所以也就是說剛剛提出來的這些疑問或疑惑其實都可以在立法院當中被監督但是如果說像現在有委員提出來說有國外的這些期刊都已經登出來了"},{"start":515.535,"end":536.306,"text":"那麼這個會不會變成是我們反過來去指揮人家那所以你們在訂定相關的這樣的一個監督的時候的跟對方是如何來達成一個共識因為畢竟當我們把錢捐到我們友邦的時候的過程當中那麼就是人家在內政當中做處理"},{"start":537.367,"end":538.429,"text":"那在內政當中做處理的時候我們怎麼樣訂定這個監督的議程又夠透明通開但是又夠能夠不影響干涉到他國內政"},{"start":548.977,"end":573.311,"text":"由今天跟委員說明就是有一些部分是必須要讓人民知道的比如說我們跟捷克之間簽訂了一個MOU那這個MOU簽訂好了之後那我們在去年的12月1號也告訴國人說有這個事情我們跟捷克一起去協助那個烏克蘭那這個是必須要去公開的那有關於內容的這個部分"},{"start":574.171,"end":590.257,"text":"就是捷克的這家期刊的部分其實他們對外透露的跟我們的那個新聞稿的那個性質是一樣的那但是至於這個約本本身如果他是列密的話那我們這邊不會對外來提供捷克方面也不會對外來提供"},{"start":590.977,"end":617.547,"text":"至於監督方面其實每一個MOU裡面都有一個成立一個共同監督委員會來監督這個執行那這個監督委員會裡面也會有我們的人參與這個是共同監督的事情所以對於監督立法院監督我們或者是說我們的政府在監督這一個事情的執行或者是說對方要跟我們報告那這個事情我們都必須要有百分之百的掌握"},{"start":618.007,"end":646.425,"text":"好我知道這個事情吼現在鬧的是連傑克我們的友邦都會認為說奇怪台灣好像先捐了一筆錢給我們之後換是他們的國會議員在質疑他們用錢用的不當這種感覺就很像是我們伸手去講人家家裡的事情但是因為錢來自於我們這裡所以我很明確的想問是那麼如果按照這個合約的話那麼最後他們還是會告訴我們怎麼樣使用這一筆善款"},{"start":647.125,"end":652.447,"text":"對,那這個報告大概是什麼時候會出來?每半年會有一個報告,這個叫做期中報告這樣子。好,每半年會有期中報告,那如果說是以今年1月你們送進來,2月送進來,那麼簽訂的期程的話,也就是其實6月、7月就有可能他們的第一批的使用的善款的狀況會有一個報告。對。好。"},{"start":674.133,"end":677.055,"text":"那我們其實還是期待這個報告因為有關於機密的部分我們還是要遵守外交部所核定的這個密的等級我們希望也不要成為未來我們在跟國際上面做一些MOU協定的時候變成是人家質疑我們的一個部分另外呢其實我在想"},{"start":691.064,"end":693.287,"text":"中美之間的貿易戰到底是不是會影響到台灣今天最新的訊息是說拜登宣布了中國產的這些產品要加徵關稅然後當然他也強調要維護台海和平的部分那麼其中"},{"start":706.381,"end":721.435,"text":"當然拜登宣布的180億的中國進口商品要開徵新關稅的部分外交部事前有掌握嗎那有了解嗎怎麼來評估現在其實全球在面對中國的時候尤其是以美國為首的這樣整體所形成的這個貿易戰對台灣的影響"},{"start":724.532,"end":754.012,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個問題有關於美方要針對中國的這些產品加徵關稅的這個部分都一直有在做討論那也一直讓我們知道那個部分的這些狀況至於細節的部分比如說要加徵百分之百百分之二十五等等的那我們有事前有一些資訊但是沒有百分之百的掌握但是知道說這個方向是確定了那即使那個現在是川普政府的話而不是拜登政府的話"},{"start":755.032,"end":778.241,"text":"我相信他們的這個方向也差不多那最主要他們會做這個的事情的原因就是因為他們覺得中國方面有這種不當的這種國家補貼造成不公平的這個貿易所以要針對這種不公平的貿易他們就用關稅作為手段來處理這些問題那至於對台灣會不會有所影響有可能正面也有可能負面"},{"start":778.681,"end":805.061,"text":"那負面的部分就是說這個部分會不會造成那個國際經濟的一個動盪那當然我們是很重要的一個依賴國際貿易的國家這個也有可能會影響到我們台灣波及到我們台灣但是正面的這個部分就是說我們台灣類似的這些產品如果具有這種競爭力而且我們沒有做那種不公平的這個競爭的話相信我們台灣在國際社會上面的這個產品的流通還會更多"},{"start":806.282,"end":822.016,"text":"關心這個部分是因為接下來520之後新內閣也要上任那像這樣的問題可能不只是外交包括經濟包括我們整體的供應鏈跟台灣對外貿易相關的部分可能就要請這個我們未來的這個會長部長會長能夠多多的關注這個部分提供更多的資訊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0ead9847653b6c4d1881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45587fe82801ebd7d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:14:51 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10:23:42","影片長度":"00:08:51","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":531,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:23:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:14:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時15分）謝謝主席，我想請一下陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席特別安排了農村再生條例的修法部分，我想其中很關鍵的一個，就是剛剛主席也特別提到了農村再生基金的問題，基金如果缺乏永續的經營規劃，一定會坐吃山空。而農村再生條例在民國99年制定的時候，第七條當中規定設置農村再生基金，當時基金規模是1,500億，分10年預算編列，現在基金即將用罄，剛剛主席也特別提到，很多委員都提出了不同的方案，基本上朝野委員都提出來了，希望能夠將基金的規模提高到3,500億到4,500億之間，分年撥入。對於農村再生基金推動各項的農村再生計畫，本席也是表示支持，但是農村再生基金是一個非營業特種基金，基金來源除了政府的撥補之外，也應該要有其他的收入協助基金的永續經營，否則基金就只能等著坐吃山空，我想這樣的說法，部長應該也認同啦？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！我們看到農村再生基金裡面長期有無償借款給其他的基金，包括了農業天然災害救助基金，包括農業發展基金，我們看到民國111年的決算數，農村再生基金借給了農業天然災害救助基金10.6億元，然後農業發展基金也借了15.3億元。我想請問一下部長，農村再生基金內部資金調度有沒有需要算利率計息這樣的機制，有沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農村再生基金本身就是有短期的借貸，通常因為我們在其他的基金像農發基金、農損基金，當年度發生的額度比較多時，經過報院、經過特收基金管理委員會同意以後會超支併決算，這個時候短期的是由農村再生基金去撥，第二年國庫又會撥補。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，這是基金當中的調度，可是我想問一下，就是我們基金當中的內部調度都沒有計息，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：政府沒有計息，是政府資金的調度……"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有計息嘛！如果都沒有計息，可是並不是所有的特種基金都沒有計息，像我們新市鎮開發基金就有訂計息的相關規定，所以我在想說農村再生基金規模這麼大，如果都沒有類似的規範，資金的運用效能跟收益顯然就不太夠，而且如果在農業部不同的基金當中，可以直接這樣去勻支，就感覺很像農業部的一個小金庫。所以本席希望對於計息的部分，農業部能夠仔細地去參考其他基金運作規劃的方式，對於農業天然災害救助基金跟農業發展基金，有沒有償還計畫？目前預計什麼時候會還完這個部分？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個部分，因為我們每一筆向農再基金借錢的，都是報院同意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是農業部自己來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解。"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後行政院同意了，第二年就會撥補。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，可是過程當中它撥補回來的時候，其實就沒有計息嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為有些基金會有啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：剛才委員講到，我會請會計……"],["鄭委員正鈐：希望這部分農業部能夠去考量一下，能夠讓農再基金能夠更有效率去用。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會來瞭解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來我想特別去關心，我們農再基金是屬於農業特別收入基金裡面的一部分，而農業特別收入基金裡面有六個基金，這六個基金當中，我想簡單來看一下，農業特別收入基金裡頭基本上它就是逐年增加，就表示農業部也認真在爭取這個部分，這邊我們給予肯定。可是我們看到了漁業發展基金的部分，漁業發展基金其實非常的少，除了110年有增加的部分，可是110年增加的部分其實是因為它有認列95到99年的應追繳沒有追繳的損失部分，對不對？所以它才增加一千多萬，我要特別講的就是在整個農業特別收入基金當中，漁業相關的基金非常、非常的少，漁業發展基金僅占整個農業特別收入基金的萬分之三到五而已，部長知道這個狀態嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，因為它沒有基金來源。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我再特別講到，因為整個漁業署的預算也占農業部6%而已，我覺得都偏少，為什麼我要特別提到這個點？因為我們新竹漁港是淤積到不行啦！我再讓你看幾張照片，這都是新竹漁港港內的狀態，船就停在淤泥上面，這是新竹漁港現在的狀態，然後右邊照片這些泥土上面的軌道，這個軌道、這個線都是漁船畫出來的，這是新竹漁港現在的狀態。對於新竹南寮漁港這樣的情況，我們希望農業部這邊能夠給予更多的資源去處理南寮漁港清淤的問題，我想請問一下，南寮漁港清淤去年、今年有4,900萬，我知道目前已經在進行了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：明年的預算有沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會視清淤的狀況，我想我們會維持這樣的水位，從過往大概2,000萬到3,000萬左右，那113、114……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，維持這樣的水位，就是現在南寮漁港你看到這樣的狀態，船就直接在淤泥上面，所以我們希望農業部這邊能夠給更多的資源，能夠做一次性的清淤，至少讓它看起來更像一個第一類的漁港該有的樣子，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：同意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我們這邊預算要怎麼去找？這不是一年2,500萬，現在兩年4,900萬就可以解決的問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，我們年度編的預算可能是針對它當年度可能的淤積去清理，但是像這麼嚴重的情形應該一次性的讓它疏濬，完了以後再用年度的經費去做維持，所以我會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長很棒，你講到用一次性的預算去清淤，整個清淤完之後，再用每一年比方說2,500萬，也許到4,900萬這樣的預算去維持，現在的狀態是一次性的清淤預算在哪裡？你要怎麼去把它找出來？漁業署的預算這麼少，你要怎麼去協助漁業署解決新竹漁港的問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這個會後我會跟漁業署討論，因為現在的預算在520以後還可以做適度的調整，不足的……因為現在在編明年度的，所以我們會做適度的調整。","第二個部分，漁業署的計畫不只是公務預算，還有基金的預算在裡面，所以我們會有一些不同的方式去協助漁業的發展。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，部長，所以我剛剛有特別提到漁業基金的相關預算，就是因為它也相對少，所以需要部長這邊去統籌一下，能夠給漁業署更多的預算來協助新竹漁港的狀態。","我們看到漁業署所管理的第一類漁港有好幾個，這些漁港都需要好好的發展，我們只是看到高雄前鎮漁港這邊的情況很好，給了這麼多的資源，讓它弄得漂漂亮亮，讓南部的漁民也得到很好的一個漁港，我都覺得可以肯定，雖然我們認為它也許比例不一定符合相較於新竹漁港的狀態，所以剛剛部長也承諾要給新竹漁港一次性清淤的部分，我希望部長這邊儘速把它整合好之後，跟本辦做一個詳細的報告，可不可以？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝部長。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：我們接下來請張啓楷委員做詢答。各位與會人士，我們中午不休息，如果需要生理管理請自動去，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.79534375,"end":41.070968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.15534375,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.977218750000006,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.710968750000006,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.26596875,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.52909375,"end":122.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.04971875000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.17596875000001,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.70721875000001,"end":133.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.39409375,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.52659375000002,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":162.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.03846875000002,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.37159375000002,"end":206.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.20971875,"end":206.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.27284375000002,"end":219.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.84971875000002,"end":215.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.06034375000002,"end":217.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.33034375000003,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.11471875,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.57034375,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.24909375000001,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.82284375,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.93534375000002,"end":235.45409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.20096875000002,"end":257.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.18909375000004,"end":272.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.23721875,"end":273.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.04721875,"end":289.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.55534375,"end":292.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.49159375,"end":299.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.38909375000003,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.48596875000004,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.02159375,"end":313.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.44346875,"end":303.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.47971875,"end":315.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.37409375000004,"end":316.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.55096875000004,"end":318.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.91784375000003,"end":320.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.06096875000003,"end":322.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.96784375000004,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.03534375000004,"end":328.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.70096875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.13534375,"end":332.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.93659375000004,"end":337.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.63221875000005,"end":345.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.03596875,"end":352.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.34284375000004,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.89534375,"end":356.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.67971875,"end":364.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.91471875,"end":372.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.86721875,"end":382.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.32159375000003,"end":401.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.44096875,"end":400.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.82471875000005,"end":404.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.10284375000003,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.27159375,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.54159375,"end":404.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.27534375000005,"end":425.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.11659375000005,"end":446.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.24159375000005,"end":434.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.03409375,"end":439.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.07096875,"end":446.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.23971875,"end":468.9703437500000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10:21:24","影片長度":"00:12:42","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":762,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:21:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:08:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時8分）謝謝主席，有請黃常次。"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長早。次長，近期因為媒體報導總統在卸任前可能要行使特赦，我相信從早上到現在也有許多委員都在關心，特赦的相關討論又再度成為社會矚目的焦點，今天這一場專報是就總統行使特赦相關的法律問題進行討論。憲法第四十條規定，總統依法行使大赦、特赦、減刑及復權之權，換言之，以上都是憲法所賦予總統的權力，行使與否交由總統本人來決定之。不管是司法院、法務部或是在座的各位，都沒有辦法去干涉總統的職權，且赦免是總統所採取的政治行為，是一種對司法權的介入，對於司法的威望以及權力分立制度都有相當程度的影響，總統應該審慎考慮，並以宏觀視角做出最適當的安排。","在此，我想請教，現在有對於特赦理由的討論，但是從過去的案例來看，特赦是不是也沒有對條件或原因進行設限？請次長回復。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在有關特赦的規定如同委員PPT上所講的，是憲法上規定由總統來行使，具體的法律規範部分就是赦免法的相關規範，赦免法有一些要件上的規定，除此之外，有關赦免部分，尤其是特赦部分就沒有其他規範。"],["陳委員俊宇：在法務部所提出的書面報告當中有提到特赦程序，赦免法第六條第一項規定，總統得命令行政院轉令主管部為大赦、特赦、減刑、復權之研議，也就是請法務部對於特赦進行研議，並擬具處理建議，請行政院再陳請給總統。剛剛政次也大概有回復，可能總統那邊並沒有明確指示，不管是被動或主動，近期內法務部部內是不是有進行相關的評估動作？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我再次強調，法務部到目前為止沒有收到行政院或來自於總統令轉的相關特赦的研議，這是第一部分。第二部分，就社會相關的爭議、事實或在意的事件，法務部所屬的幕僚當然會做相關的研議，所以有關於特赦最近一些各方的意見，法務部當然會做一些法律上的研議，或是一些個案上的處理，當然會。"],["陳委員俊宇：未來有沒有可能會提供給總統什麼方向的建議？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，按照赦免法的規定是總統得叫我們研議，發動權在於總統，總統如果沒有主動發動的話，法務部本身沒有發動的可能性。"],["陳委員俊宇：就法務部先前的回應來看，還沒有得到來自府院的明確消息，剛剛次長也很明確的講，但有關特赦的業務應該有在處理，包括考慮到相關配套等等，假設今天總統決定行使特赦權，後續法務部辦理的相關程序需要多久時間完成？"],["黃次長謀信：要看他特赦的範圍，如果行使特赦的話，特赦有兩種，一個是刑的免除，另外一個是罪刑宣告無效，看他是特赦哪一種，如果我們接到特赦令的話，按照赦免法第七條規定，法務部必須要發交證明給受赦免者，那個速度會很快。因為就法務部來講，我們收到特赦令只發交一個特赦證明而已，所以相關的程序，就特赦令來講會很快核發。"],["陳委員俊宇：赦免法第三條規定：「受罪刑宣告之人經特赦者，免除其刑之執行；其情節特殊者，得以其罪刑之宣告為無效。」尤其是後段提到「情節特殊者，得以其罪刑之宣告為無效」，請教次長，後段所產生的效果是否大於前段的部分？到底是免刑不免罪，還是免刑又免罪？"],["黃次長謀信：如同我剛才報告的，特赦有兩種，如果是免除刑之執行的話他的罪責還存在，因為刑還存在，如果他事後再犯罪的話有可能會構成累犯；如果是罪刑都免的話就等於一筆勾銷，罪刑已經無效了，他後面如果再犯罪就沒有累犯的問題。所以法律效果是不一樣的，可以這樣子理解沒有錯，可以通俗地理解為第三條後段的罪刑都免除、無效的話，在法律上的效果會大於前項刑之執行的免除。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以還是應該要看總統如何裁決，才能夠決定最後達到的效果。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，由於這次可能被特赦對象身分比較特殊，也就是我們之前的元首，近期也有許多包括美國、韓國等過去特赦元首的經驗加入討論，即便各國對於特赦的法規有所差異，政治體制也不盡相同，但是對於特赦元首同樣是具有高度政治性、爭議性的議題，法務部是否也有參酌其他國家的案例，來研擬更嚴謹的相關配套？"],["黃次長謀信：關於特赦部分，我剛剛有提到，包括美國、日本、德國的特赦制度，法務部都有相關的蒐集和研議，我們也當然會參酌國外有關特赦的經驗來研議適合本國相關的特赦制度。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於特赦與否，我們還是尊重總統的職權，不管是對於政治的衝擊，還是對於司法的影響，都是總統在決策過程中必須要去承擔的責任。相關的程序及配套需要法務部協助辦理的部分，也期待能夠透過這次專報以及媒體朋友的報導，讓社會大眾更加清楚瞭解特赦的範圍和效力，能夠減少誤解、降低對立，對於這次的議題本身來講，理性討論才有功效，所以請法務部對於這部分應該審慎評估。","再來，請教外役監再傳脫逃事件，前兩天傳出外役監逾期未歸涉及脫逃的案子是臺南明德外役監的方姓受刑人，他在11日至13日放假期間有依規定到派出所報到，但在原訂應該返回外役監的時間，沒有正常回監的情況，幸好警方在昨天已經找到這一位受刑人。目前專案小組對於本案所掌握的狀況及處理的情形，為什麼這一位受刑人會發生逾期未歸的情況？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，理論上是13號的1點就應該要返回外役監，但他逾時未歸，後來本部有掌握他相關的行蹤，目前他已經被逮捕了，已經回歸入監服刑當中。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想請教一下，這次發現他逾期未歸，從通報到警方開始找人、到找到人，整個過程大概是多久的時間？"],["黃次長謀信：如果外役監逾期返家未歸的話，按照規定30分鐘之內，監獄必須要通報警政署M-Police進行相關的緝捕工作，兩個小時之內必須要通報到發監的地檢署跟外役監所在的地檢署進行後續案件的偵辦跟通緝。到目前為止，就進行相關的SOP流程，這些都已經規範了。"],["陳委員俊宇：目前為止，我們還有沒有類似外役監違規脫逃的受刑人還沒有逮捕到的？"],["黃次長謀信：近十年來，外役監脫逃人數大概47人，到目前為止就剩下一位，大概是在111年花蓮自強外役監脫逃的受刑人，迄今為止尚未緝獲，其他的都已經緝獲了。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於逾期未歸的這些受刑人，不管是自首或是被逮捕歸案以後，會受到什麼樣的懲處？你們都是會以脫逃罪辦理嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：刑責的部分，他當然要負擔脫逃罪的偵辦，沒有問題；另外，原來在刑的部分，因為他在外役監脫逃了，我們就會把他轉軌，回復到普通的監獄繼續服刑。再來，他在外役監裡面所受到的縮刑待遇，也因為他脫逃會回復到他沒有縮刑的狀態，所以是轉軌再加縮刑的回復，而刑責的部分當然要追究。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，對於脫逃罪判刑確定的受刑人，所判的刑期如果太輕，只有幾個月，是不是難以達到嚇阻或警惕的效果？"],["黃次長謀信：脫逃罪的部分，在目前的刑責是三年以下，當然外界有些倡議，覺得刑責過低，我們目前在修刑法上的脫逃罪，的確是有要提高其刑責的部分，來抑制受刑人可能產生脫逃的意念。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，所以我們近幾年外役監已有數十件的脫逃案件，剛剛次長也有大概講了一下，相信法務部對於每個個案應該都有進行過檢討。我再請教一下，對於逾期未歸問題整體的改進方向，你們有沒有比較完整的一個檢討方向？"],["黃次長謀信：當然從制度面，我們剛剛已經跟委員報告，通報面也跟委員報告了；另外防範面，外役監現在試圖引進AI的科技技術，讓外役監是不是戴腳鐐、手銬，用電子防禦的部分，讓他在返家探視的時候，讓外役監更能夠掌握受刑人。所以從科技面、從法律面、從業務面，我們來進行相關的檢討。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，所以我們外役監是為了要讓受刑人能夠銜接社會的一個制度。"],["黃次長謀信：對！它是一個中間處遇。"],["陳委員俊宇：不論是平時低度的管理，或是返家探親的規定，我想都是立意良善，相對地脫逃或是再犯的風險也比較高，畢竟我們沒有辦法完全去掌握一個人的行動和想法，但是希望法務部能夠落實檢討，並持續精進外役監的管理，也請法務部在未來交接過程中，提醒即將接任的團隊應該要多加注意，不要壞了設立外役監的美意，讓我們民眾能夠更加地信任，也讓這個制度可以持續有更完善地推動過程，以上。"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所\n得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.04159375,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.234718750000003,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.26784375,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.60096875,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":47.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.70284375,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.82971875,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.49909375,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.77034375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.96846875,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.32721875000001,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.32846875,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":208.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.67346875,"end":216.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.04346875000002,"end":223.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.56971875000002,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.52284375000002,"end":282.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.49721875,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.83471875000004,"end":317.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.23034375000003,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.15784375000004,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.32909375,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.69346875,"end":355.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.27909375,"end":356.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.29596875000004,"end":377.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.17284375,"end":361.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.86221875,"end":397.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.39909375,"end":416.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.61971875,"end":418.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.66596875000005,"end":464.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.53221875,"end":478.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.97721875,"end":484.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.42346875000004,"end":487.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.68471875000006,"end":494.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.29534375000003,"end":505.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.82534375000006,"end":524.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.7590937500001,"end":524.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.8897187499999,"end":531.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3234687500001,"end":537.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.34784375,"end":562.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.2847187500001,"end":567.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.58784375,"end":572.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.05971875,"end":587.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.66471875,"end":594.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.67221875,"end":600.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.5615937499999,"end":619.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.15346875,"end":622.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.68471875,"end":624.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.92909375,"end":635.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.17221875,"end":635.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.2903437500001,"end":635.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.64471875,"end":635.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.6784687500001,"end":651.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.52409375,"end":651.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.62534375,"end":651.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.96284375,"end":674.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.3728437500001,"end":674.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.96346875,"end":703.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.0222187500001,"end":704.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.0390937500001,"end":755.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.0378437500001,"end":712.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.60909375,"end":759.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.7097187500001,"end":759.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.92909375,"end":759.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.96284375,"end":760.1147187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.063,"end":39.857,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們那個黃長赤請次長我也好好 次長早早好 次長近期因為這個媒體的報導那我們總統在卸任前可能要行使特赦我相信這早上到現在也許多委員都在關心那這個特赦相關這個討論"},{"start":41.778,"end":71.318,"text":"又再度成為我們社會矚目的一個焦點那今天的這一場專報來就我們總統行使特赦相關的法律問題來進行這個討論我們憲法第40條規定總統行使這個大赦特赦減刑及賦權的這個權利換言之就是說以上都是憲法所賦予總統的權利行使與否交由總統他本人來決定之那我想不管是司法院法務部或是在座的各位"},{"start":72.018,"end":88.755,"text":"那都沒有辦法去干涉到總統的這個職權並且這個赦免是總統所採取的政治行為是一種對司法權的一個介入對於司法的威望以及權力分立的制度都有相當程度的影響那總統應該審慎考慮並以宏觀的這個視角來做出最適當的安排"},{"start":94.56,"end":108.978,"text":"再次我想請教就是現在有對於特赦理由的討論但是從過去的這個案例來看特赦是不是也沒有對條件或原因來進行設限我想請市長回覆一下"},{"start":109.639,"end":127.902,"text":"各位報告我們現在有關特赦的規定當然如同委員PPT上所講的是憲法上規定由總統來行使那具體的法律規範的部分就是赦免法的相關規範赦免法有做一些要件上的一些規定除此之外有關赦免的部分尤其特赦的部分就沒有其他的規範"},{"start":128.883,"end":145.072,"text":"好那在就我們法務部所提出的這個書面報告當中有提到說特赦的程序這個赦免法第6條第一項規定總統的命令行政院轉令這個主管部也就是我們法務部"},{"start":146.232,"end":173.464,"text":"為這個大赦特赦減刑復權之研議那也就是說請法務部對於特赦進行研議並離去處理建議請這個行政院再陳情給總統那我想請問剛剛政治也大概有回覆那可能總統那邊並沒有明確的指示那不管是被動或主動我們近期內我們法務部這個部內是不是有進行相關的這個評估的動作"},{"start":175.73,"end":202.057,"text":"各位委員報告那我再次的強調就是說法務部到目前為止沒有收到行政院或來自於總統的令轉的相關特赦的研議這是第一部分第二部分法務部當然就社會相關的爭議事實或在意的事件法務部所屬的幕僚當然會做相關的研議所以有關於特赦最近的一些各方的意見法務部當然會做一些法律上的研議或者是個案上做一些處理當然會"},{"start":202.737,"end":219.035,"text":"好那未來我們有沒有可能會提供給總統什麼方向的一個這個建議各位委員報告我們按照社民法的規定他必須要總統他得要教我們來研議發動權在於總統總統沒有如果沒有發動總統發動權的話我們不會沒有法務部本身沒有發動的可能性"},{"start":224.582,"end":253.744,"text":"好 那就我們法務部先前的這個回應來看還沒有得到來自府院的明確消息剛剛那個次長你也很明確的講那但有關這個特赦的業務應該有在處理包括考慮到相關的配套等等那假設假設今天總統決定這個行使特赦權了那後續我們法務部辦理的這個程序相關的這個程序需要多久的時間來完成"},{"start":254.571,"end":282.69,"text":"各位委員報告 看它特赦的範圍 如果特赦 特赦有兩種 一個是刑的免除 另外一個罪行宣告無效 看它是特赦哪一種那如果我們接到特赦的特赦令的話 按照我們赦免法第7條的規定 法務部必須要發交證明給受赦免者 那速度會很快因為就法務部來講 我們說特赦令 我們只發交一個特赦證明而已所以相關的程序 特赦令來講 它會很快的合法"},{"start":284.298,"end":302.761,"text":"就這個部分我們看到這個赦免法第三條規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者他免除其刑之執行其勤解特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效尤其後段有寫到"},{"start":303.742,"end":321.725,"text":"情節特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效那我還是請教次長就是說後段所產生的這個效果是否大於前段的部分那是不是這個到底是免刑不免罪還是免刑又免罪"},{"start":322.325,"end":349.991,"text":"各位報告特赦大概如同我剛才報告有兩種如果免足刑至執行的話他的罪子還存在的如果他事後再犯罪的話因為刑還存在他有可能會構成累犯那如果罪行都免的話他就等於一筆勾銷他後面如果說再犯罪罪行無效了嘛後面再犯罪他就沒有累犯的問題所以他的法律效果是不一樣的可以這樣子理解沒有錯通俗的理解可以來理解就是說第三條後段的罪行都免除"},{"start":357.635,"end":373.824,"text":"所以應該還是要看總統如何來裁決才能夠決定最後達到的效果那另外由於這次的可能被特赦對象身份比較特殊也就是我們之前的元首那近期也有許多包括美國、韓國等"},{"start":375.365,"end":396.37,"text":"過去特赦元首的經驗來加入討論即便各國對於特赦的法規有所差異政治體制也不盡相同但是對於特赦元首的這件事情同樣是高度的政治性、爭議性的議題那我們法務部是否也有參酌其他國家的案例來研擬更嚴謹的相關配套"},{"start":399.803,"end":410.054,"text":"法務部就這個特赦部分當然我剛有提到包括美國、日本跟德國的特赦的制度法務部他都有相關的收集跟研議我們也當然會參酌國外有關特赦的經驗來研議適合本國的相關的特赦制度"},{"start":418.826,"end":445.316,"text":"所以我想還是對於特赦與否我們還是尊重總統的職權不管是對於政治的這個衝擊還是對於司法的影響都是總統在決策過程中必須要去承擔的責任那相關的程序及配套需要我們法務部這邊協助辦理的部分也期待能夠透過這次的專報以及媒體朋友的這些報導讓社會大眾更加的清楚了解特赦的範圍跟這個效力能夠來減少這個誤解降低對立對於"},{"start":448.397,"end":463.716,"text":"這次的這個議題本身來講這個理性的討論才有那個功效所以請我們法務部對這個部分應該去審慎評估那再來我想請教就是這個外衣間再傳這個脫逃的事件那在"},{"start":464.986,"end":477.625,"text":"這前兩天傳出這個外衣間預期未歸涉及脫逃的這個案子是台南這個明德外衣間的方信受刑人那在11月13日放假期間沒有依規定"},{"start":479.025,"end":504.735,"text":"到這個派出所報導但是在原定的這個應該返回的外遺間時間沒有正常的回間的情況幸好是在這個昨天警方已經找到這一位受刑人那我想請教就是目前這個專案小組對於本案所掌握的這個狀況以及處理的情形為什麼這一位受刑人會發生預期未歸的情況"},{"start":506.369,"end":524.305,"text":"顧問報告,他理論上是這個13號的一點,他就應該要返回這個外遺監但後來他遇時未歸嘛,那後來本部有掌握他相關的行蹤啦,外遺有掌握他相關的行蹤那目前他已經逮捕了,已經在入監服刑當中"},{"start":526.434,"end":527.675,"text":"我們按照規定如果外遇監預期"},{"start":540.913,"end":541.353,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":563.308,"end":587.27,"text":"那目前為止我們還有沒有類似這個這個外衣間脫逃的受刑人還沒有逮捕到回歸的近十年來我們外衣間脫逃人數大概47人到目前為止在就剩下一位大概是花蓮那個外衣這強外衣間在111年脫逃的一個一個外衣間受刑人到目前為止還沒棄貨其他的都已經棄貨"},{"start":588.937,"end":603.281,"text":"那對於預期未歸的這些受刑人在不管是自首或是被逮捕歸案以後會受到什麼樣的懲處我們都是會以這個脫逃罪來辦理嗎?行責的部分他當然要負擔這個脫逃罪的偵辦面問題"},{"start":605.742,"end":605.822,"text":"陳俊宇"},{"start":625.387,"end":653.729,"text":"那對於脫逃罪判刑確定的這個收容人所判的刑期若太輕只有幾個月是不是難以達到嚇阻或警惕的效果脫逃罪的部分在目前的刑責三年以下當然外界有些倡議覺得他刑責過低那我目前在修我們刑法上的脫逃罪我們的確是有要提高他刑責的部分把它提高來抑制這個脫逃人受刑人他可能產生脫逃的意念好所以我們近幾年外醫監"},{"start":655.13,"end":674.626,"text":"這個已有這個數十件的脫逃案件那剛剛次長也有大概講了一下相信我們這個法務部對每個案應該都有進行過這個檢討那我再請教一下對於預期未歸的問題整體的改進方向我們有沒有比較完整的一個檢討方向"},{"start":675.186,"end":702.512,"text":"跟委員報告當然從制度面我們剛剛有一個委員報告通報面我跟委員報告另外防範面我們外醫監我們現在是試圖的引進我們AI的科技技術就是說讓外醫監是不是戴腳鐐手銬用電子反力的部分讓他反加探測的時候能讓外醫監的這個更能夠掌握這個受刑人所以從科技面從法律面從業務面我們進行來做些相關的檢討"},{"start":704.737,"end":719.078,"text":"所以我們外遇監視為了要讓受刑人能夠準備能夠這個銜接社會的一個制度不論是平時低度的這個管理或是反加探親的這個規定我想都是利益良善"},{"start":719.679,"end":734.154,"text":"那但相對的脫逃或是再犯的風險也比較高所以畢竟我們沒有辦法完全去掌握一個人的這個行動和想法但是希望這個法務部能夠落實檢討並持續的精進這個外議間的管理"},{"start":737.717,"end":759.432,"text":"那也請我們法務部在未來交接的這個過程提醒即將接任的團隊應該要多加注意也不要壞了設立外議間的這個美意也讓我們民眾能夠更加的信任那也讓這個制度可以持續更完善的一個推動的過程好以上"}]}},{"id":"152510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152510","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c02c5d95562e19c200ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45e766b101dd82558b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:07:40 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agreement），如果只是簽MOU，對方不小心講出來，或者是透過他內部disclose出去，我們在MOU後面做一個proviso，裡面另外再簽一個，像以前我們跟美國國務院跟國防部都單獨有簽一個NDA（non-disclosure agreement），這個時候就可以保障MOU的內容不會外洩。至於後續參加WHA的活動，我們當然是持續要支持，也希望往後在我們國家安全戰略規劃下，協助跨部會政府的橫向協調（interagency coordination）能夠做得更周延。","下一個題目就是延續剛才前面委員講的，就是南海的立場，您剛才引述了，我們政府在2016年對我們整個在南海的看法都有演示出來。因為我本人在2016年前也去了PCA（Permanent Court of Arbitration），我也到現場去瞭解了實際情況，也看出了他們對南海問題……","但是現在產生一個現象，就是很多是既成的事實，比方來講，1971年我們從中業島防颱離開，菲律賓就占領了；1974年敦謙沙洲陸戰隊防颱離開，越南就占了，這麼多年來已經既成事實了，當然太平島我們現在有coast guard、有駐軍；東沙也很好。我這邊提一個建議，因為我們的政府在民國88年跟98年由行政院發布的法案，看這個圖上，到現在的黃岩島仍然是在我們的領海基線內，那麼菲律賓跟中國大陸兩個禮拜前、三個禮拜前是在仁愛礁，但是仁愛礁是低潮高地，所以它雖然是一條擱淺的登陸艦在那邊，他人是住在船上，所以他們兩邊鬧來鬧去，其實都是作秀，因為不會改變結果，中國大陸也允許菲律賓運送糧食，但是不准他有建材，讓這條擱淺的船能夠持續，讓時間拖。","現在我們回到民主礁，也叫做黃岩島，這個在我們的領海法裡面是公布了，所以我們有我們的立場，我建議我們的條約法律司可以邀請菲律賓駐臺的，不管是辦公室的代表，我們做一個diplomatic demarche的程序，就告訴他，依照我們的法律，這個東西是在我的領海範圍，只要表達這個就可以，這是立場，而不是單獨聚焦在太平島。","我們再來看，這個島我是利用了衛星照片、海圖，把所有的島礁用相同的比例套疊下去，各位看到東沙群島是很穩固的，有領海基線，而太平島是沒有包括領海基線，只是有禁限制水域，可是民主礁黃岩島在我們政府的法令宣布裡面是有領海基線的。現在中共跟菲律賓兩個在爭主導權，雖然雙方不管是執法單位，你叫他marine police或coast guard，大家用water cannon、用水炮在那邊轟，其實是show business，因為那個島上是沒有辦法居留的，即便是高潮，也是在水面3公尺，但爭取的是在整個南海的影響力，我覺得我們政府在這個島礁上面，外交部的立場就是正式通知菲律賓，針對主權我們有我們的論述方式，我不介入你們的爭吵，這一點可以顯示出在部長任內維護南海主權的過程當中，不要漏掉了民主礁，因為它在88年、98年兩次公布修正法案，都劃在我們的領海基線，是不是可以請條約法律司司長來回答？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我來說明好了，對於委員的建議，我們回去做很深入的研究，要確保那不只是可以彰顯我們的主權主張，另外在區域的形勢上面也不會有任何的困擾，我們來做一個好的recommendation之後再來進行好嗎？"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。在委員離開之前，我有一些感想，委員是我非常尊重的軍界前輩，在立法院裡面做了很多的recommendation，都是讓我們能夠很深入的去研究或者是馬上就可以施行的建議，對我們來講是非常的好，在這邊也要跟委員致上最高的敬意，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：後面還有機會合作。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.57096875,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.26284375,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.49471875,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.620968749999999,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.133468750000002,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.21346875,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.089718750000003,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.05784375,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.12096875,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.13221875,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.48159375,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.28721875,"end":64.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.96596875,"end":84.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.01346875,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.82284375,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.76221875,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.70284375,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.00159375000001,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.77346875,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.99159375,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.61159375000001,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.74346875,"end":141.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.48971875,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.91096875,"end":156.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.47471875000002,"end":174.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.68721875,"end":176.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.37034375000002,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.02409375000002,"end":180.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.11659375000002,"end":184.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.45346875,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.90659375,"end":205.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.62159375000002,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.28971875,"end":262.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.40346875,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.74846875000003,"end":269.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.65096875,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.66721875,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.70034375,"end":280.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.08409375,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.08346875,"end":289.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.97721875,"end":290.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.95596875,"end":299.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.38909375000003,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.44721875000005,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.70784375,"end":320.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.72346875,"end":346.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.54221875,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.37284375,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.26721875000004,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.51596875,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.71909375,"end":376.46159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.721,"end":4.016,"text":"主席好 有請外交部吳部長請吳部長"},{"start":12.557,"end":31.278,"text":"委員好部長好很高興今天在這個本屆立委中間您是最後一次立您來詢答那麼後面接著又要到這個國安會去服務就誠如剛才前面委員講的理論上外交國防它是有延續性的那麼將來到國安會後你要做跨部會的協調"},{"start":32.299,"end":58.199,"text":"是可能擔負更大的責任那麼我們今天原本是講省市推動國際社會聲援我國參加世界衛生組織的執行報告那麼我們站在立場上是絕對支持這個整個的作為謝謝委員那在這個題目裡面我們就用這個infographic來顯示外交部做的努力當然我們後面還有經濟的空間"},{"start":59.88,"end":84.249,"text":"我們也希望在政府的新任期內我們要推動國家安全戰略因此有關資源分配、協商的順暢策略比較容易推行施政能夠同步、政策持續、法治周全在這種情況下外交部對外不管是以半官方或官方包括剛才講的我們很多歐洲國家跟我們友誼很深但是非"},{"start":85.709,"end":106.117,"text":"MOU只是一個概念我提出一個建議因為為了保障後面能夠合作MOU裡面加個但書簽一個NDA如果只是簽MOU對方不小心講出來或者是透過他內部disclose出去"},{"start":107.062,"end":121.321,"text":"我們做一個MOU後面做一個Proviso 裡面另外再簽一個以前我們跟美國國務院跟國防部都單獨有簽一個NDA Non Disclosure Agreement那這個時候就保障MOU的內容就不會外洩"},{"start":122.422,"end":144.131,"text":"至於後續參加這個WHA的這個活動我們當然是持續要支持了那也希望後來在往後在我們的國家安全戰略規劃下協助跨部會政府的這個橫向協調interagency coordination能夠做得更周延那麼下面一個題目就是延續剛才"},{"start":147.641,"end":156.027,"text":"前面的委員講的就是南海的立場您剛才引述了就是我們政府在2016年對我們整個在南海的看法都有演示出來"},{"start":157.523,"end":174.091,"text":"因為我本人也在2016年前我也去了這個PCAPermanent Court of Arbitration我也到現場去了解實際的情況也看出了他們對南海問題但是現在產生一個現象就是很多是繼承的事實比方來講這個1971年我們從中葉島防台離開菲律賓就佔領了那麼1974年"},{"start":181.135,"end":184.438,"text":"東沙也很好我這邊提一個建議就是因為我們的政府在民國88年跟98年由行政院發布的法案看這個圖上"},{"start":201.96,"end":225.716,"text":"到現在的黃岩島仍然是在我們的臨海基線內那麼菲律賓啊跟中國大陸首先兩個禮拜前三個禮拜前是在這個所謂的人愛礁啊但是人愛礁是低潮高地所以它雖然是一條擱淺的這個登陸艦在那邊它仍是住在船上所以他們兩邊鬧來鬧去啊其實都是作秀因為不會改變結果"},{"start":227.016,"end":242.742,"text":"中國大陸也允許菲律賓運送糧食但是不准他有建材讓這條擱淺的船能夠持續讓時間拖那現在我們回到在這個民主礁也叫做黃岩島因為這個在我們的領海法裡面是公佈了"},{"start":243.703,"end":269.557,"text":"所以我們有我們的立場是那麼我建議我們的這個條約法律師就是邀請菲律賓駐台的不管是辦公室的代表我們做一個Diplomatic Demarche的程序就告訴他依照我們的法律這個東西是在我的領海範圍只要表達這個就可以了這是立場而不是單獨聚焦在太平島那我們再去看"},{"start":272.502,"end":288.884,"text":"這個島我是利用了衛星照片海圖把所有的島礁相同的比例套疊下去了各位看到東沙群島是很穩固的有臨海基線那太平島是沒有包括臨海基線只是有淨限制水域"},{"start":290.049,"end":306.051,"text":"可是民主教黃岩島在我們政府的法令宣布裡面是有領海基線的那現在中共跟菲律賓兩個在爭主導權那麼雖然雙方不管是執法單位你叫他Maritime Police或Coast Guard"},{"start":306.511,"end":330.069,"text":"大家用Water Cannon用水泡在那邊轟其實是show business因為那個島上是沒有辦法居留的它只是在即便是高潮也是在水面3公尺但是呢爭取的是在整個南海的影響力那麼我覺得我們政府在這個島礁上面外交部的立場就是正式通知菲律賓主權我們有的論述方式我不介入你們的爭吵"},{"start":331.05,"end":348.772,"text":"這一點是可以顯示出在部長任內維護南海主權過程中間不要漏掉了民主膠因為他是在88年98年兩次公佈修正法案都劃在我們的臨海基線那是不是請這個條約法律司司長您有沒有回答"},{"start":351.765,"end":375.839,"text":"這個部分我來說好了對於委員的這個建議我們回去做很深入的這個研究要確保說那個不只是可以彰顯我們的這個主權的這個主張那另外在區域的這個形式上面也不會有任何的這個困擾那我們來做一個那個一個好的一個Recommendation之後那我們來進行這樣子好嗎好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c00955dff09f0b478b881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45da6e6bdae5930a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:01:19 - 10:11:53","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":634,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:11:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T10:01:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":297,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時1分）主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早安。部長，今天審查農再條例，我想您應該非常瞭解農村負擔糧食生產的重要功能，不曉得您還有沒有印象，在農村再生條例推動之前，相較於都市，農村給人的印象為何？"],["陳代理部長駿季：農村給人的印象就是很雜亂，因為那時候的生產面大概都是用傳統的農業方法去執行……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以去到那邊就會常常聞到牛糞味，類似這樣的風貌。"],["張委員嘉郡：就像部長所講的，過去農村給人的印象是非常地老舊、不方便、可能髒亂，再加上都市化及工商發展，人口大量集中到都市，導致農村的青壯外移，公共建設及發展不足，生活機能、文化特色都漸漸在喪失。2010年本席也是農再條例的提案人之一，當時行政院的版本我記得是1,200億，在我與翁重鈞委員的堅持之下，爭取到1,500億。農再執行到今天已經十多年了，請問部長，對於農再執行的成果滿意嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想所有的農再執行一定是階段性地一直往上提升，以現在我們所見到的，大概有1,046個農村再生計畫區域，我們看到了它的活力，我們看到了青年人進到裡面去，我們也看到了那裡的長者受到支持性的支撐，現在我們慢慢把它變成一個網絡，從一個個體的農村再生計畫，聯絡成一個網絡的社區。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，其實部長形容的也非常地貼切，感受到農村裡面有年輕人回流，注入新的活力，老人也活得更有尊嚴，所以農村再生的存在其實是非常、非常重要，尤其它是由下而上、由農村自主，讓很多農民及在地鄉親的想法得以發揮。","我現在也給部長看一下，我們在雲林的農再都發展得非常好，這是我們整個雲林的成果。當初農再條例通過的時候，本席是每一村、每一村到村裡面去宣傳，請他們一定要成立社區發展協會，也一定要參加培根計畫，這個效果非常好，但是我們擔心如果農再基金用完了怎麼辦？整個農村以後未來要怎麼辦？部長，你覺得這對於整個臺灣發展會有什麼樣的影響？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個，農村再生計畫到目前為止大概有將近497億，足以支應113年到116年，116年以後可能會見底，但是在這個過程中行政院本身在……如果是一個對的政策、重要的政策，我們通常會提四年期計畫報院，報院以後，就算以後基金是見底的，透過我們報院的計畫，如果獲得同意的話，還可以由公務預算來撥補，所以我們持續會做這樣的努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：就是除了這個部分之外，本席今天所提的要再修正提高到3,600億，請問部長支持嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這牽涉到因為預算的編列是由行政單位來編的……"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，我不是要逼你說可以，但是我想要知道你支不支持？"],["陳代理部長駿季：經費本身是一個推動農村再生重要的支柱，能夠有持續性的經費是非常好的。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你是贊成的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：但是這樣的經費我們希望是透過行政程序去爭取編列。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，就是要並行，我們要提案，你們才會積極、認真、趕快去爭取。我想要知道另外一個，就是國土計畫法限制農地、農村的使用分區再難以進行變更，等於是宣告未來農村發展將被進一步地限制，年輕人更不願意留在農村，部長，你怎麼看？"],["陳代理部長駿季：國土計畫就算未來114年4月開始順利執行，還有一個通盤檢討的機制，就是每5年可以通盤檢討，而不是說……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你覺得我們準備好了嗎？你覺得國土計畫法明年真的可以實施嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我個人認為，因為現在國土計畫在各縣市公展……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是應該更完善一點呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是應該，現在還有地方針對不管是以農業部分的農一、農二本身的編列，還有農三的部分，會有一些爭議，所以還需要時間比較仔細地做一個評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長也是同意應該暫緩？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個要看，因為國土計畫不只有農業的部分，還有其他的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：我只問你。"],["陳代理部長駿季：農業的部分如果有更多的時間，我覺得可以讓這個計畫更完整地上路。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，本席也同意這件事情應該需要暫緩，把所有的配套，不管是農業部的、其他部會的，都做好之後再去實施，否則後面會亂成一鍋粥。我也很感謝部長講出你真實的看法，因為我們的確要執行之前需要多一點耐心，把所有的細節都盤點好、盤整好再去實施。","另外，有關於公糧收購的價格，上一次13年前也是本席提的，之前本席有問過部長，部長說要等520之後才能決定，我想知道的是，其實離520只剩下5天，部長，你決定了沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，沒有錯，就像您所提到的，這10年來物價上漲，以農業來講、以稻作來講，全國平均大概10%……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，超過。"],["陳代理部長駿季：但是同樣地，產量也提高了，所以以公斤為單位來算的話，成本增加了大概2%，這是第一件事情，因為也許……"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上我覺得對於你的算法，我們也可以坐下來好好談，目前本院已經二讀通過要提高每公斤8元以上，這一點部長同意嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：基本上我覺得這個要非常慎重去思考，因為用經費可以解決的事情相對單純，我們要考慮的是整個產業的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就是問你同不同意嘛！因為離520……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我基本上不認同。"],["張委員嘉郡：你不認同，所以你是不支持公糧收購價格要提高的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我說我們支持的是我們要確保稻農的收益，但是稻農的收益本身……"],["張委員嘉郡：這麼多的鄉親都在殷殷期盼，什麼都漲，只有公糧收購的價格不漲，農業部還不支持公糧收購價格提高……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們是……"],["張委員嘉郡：最後我再問一下，百億基金養豬的補助其實也已經快要見底了，目前我們雲林縣有156萬頭豬，占全國三分之一的頭數，為了提升養豬的效率，很多老舊不堪的設備、污水池都需要改善。我想要請問一下，今年是執行計畫的最後一年，雲林縣申請踴躍，大概有400場，申請的金額是八億四千多萬，但到目前為止農業部只有通過一億多，不曉得部長能不能再繼續大力支持一下我們的養豬產業？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們一定會去支持養豬產業，這牽涉到經費的編列，跟當時雲林縣政府提出來希望中央來補助的那個時間點，因為那個時間點已經過了經費編列的時間，所以我們在下一期的預算還會繼續……"],["張委員嘉郡：你還有下一期嗎？這不是執行的最後一年了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：當然名稱不會是一樣的，但是針對養豬產業的升級，我們還是希望能夠持續地推動……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是代表說部長會向行政院爭取續辦下一個階段，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：類似這樣，但是名稱不是百億基金的延續……"],["張委員嘉郡：當然、當然。"],["陳代理部長駿季：就是說針對養豬產業的……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是支持養豬產業的行為會繼續、升級會繼續……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個一定是要持續的，因為養豬產業正在轉型中，不能轉到一半就停掉了。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個本席大力的支持，因為對的事情就是要持續去做，尤其我們雲林縣是占全國養豬產業的三分之一，而且大概還有七成的豬舍都還沒有被改善，希望部長能夠承諾，繼續積極的向行政院爭取支持我們養豬產業的升級。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們已經在做了。"],["張委員嘉郡：希望繼續更加積極，好不好？因為你這筆錢就要用完了，你以後要做，你沒錢，你怎麼做？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對啊！所以我們已經在爭取啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：就是要努力爭取，所以我就問你說承不承諾要努力爭取啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們很努力，所以我們已經向行政院申請。"],["張委員嘉郡：已經報了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該報了吧！"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長不知道報了沒，是嗎？"],["江代理司長文全：我們在規劃第二期，跟委員報告。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，如果有，是不是可以進一步書面報告給本席？謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：養豬大家都很關心，我們也謝謝張嘉郡委員，也請農業部將你們要報的時候，依序把委員所需要的，請給委員說明時間點，然後繼續追蹤。","要請下一位鄭正鈐委員質詢前，主席在這邊報告一下，有關我們的農村再生條例，請行政部門跟委員大家聽清楚，101年到104年是第一期的農再條例，我們的財政紀律法是在108年的時候，當時的氛圍是因為有國防跟教育經費的問題，所以當時說不能直接說金額多少，可是這個只限於國防，主計總處今天有來，我們今天主要的目的也就是希望幫助農民。剛剛不管藍綠的委員在詢答當中，跟行政部門，大家都一致，就是因為希望繼續，但是我們委員之所以提案的目的，就是因為到了116年，剛剛部長有說這1,500億要用罄了、沒錢了，所以地方很緊張，我們希望提出這個問題讓它繼續。","所以剛剛行政部門有說到財政紀律法，我再一次強調，財政紀律法在108年當時才設，那設了之後是因為國防跟教育，所以有了這樣子的一個解釋、氛圍，但是其他的特別基金有沒有這個氛圍？白紙寫黑字，上面是沒有的。所以我也希望行政部門，當我們提出議案的時候，大家要好好的理性來討論，本席不希望一切二法，這是不好的，大家共同的目的都希望在116年之後一定要繼續。因為剛剛部長有說明了，好的政策，你們會繼續報院，但是我們在立法部門裡頭監督，代表人民，不知道行政院到時候會不會同意，如果你農業部報了行政院，行政院不同意，我們人民怎麼辦呢？所以在監督的立場，我們一定會未雨綢繆，我們希望在文字方面，大家在詢答的空檔好好冷靜去想，到底要怎麼樣能夠白紙寫黑字確認，是一定要繼續。","因為剛剛部長有講了，好的政策，你們會報給行政院，萬一行政院不准呢？你告訴我們一句話，你要回來公務部門、公務預算來執行之，可是當你的公務預算如果總量沒有增加，你增加這一個部分，會不會排擠到其他？這也是我們為你農業部在思考的。所以今天會提出這樣子的一個方案，我也謝謝藍綠白的委員，大家都支持，在文字方面要怎麼樣寫，請大家來討論。所以我再一次強調行政部門要用心，好好來討論內容，好嗎？謝謝。","接下來，我們請鄭委員正鈐詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.14909375000000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.63846875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.52846875,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.265968750000003,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.53096875,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.404093750000001,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.95784375,"end":37.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.59034375,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.94846875,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.87221875,"end":53.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.56721875,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.149093750000006,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.579093750000006,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.40471875,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.66534375,"end":99.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.98159375,"end":125.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.12284375,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.22221875000001,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.92596875,"end":134.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.86221875,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":194.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.17346875,"end":206.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.88471875000002,"end":209.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.26409375,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.03596875000002,"end":227.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.52284375000002,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.50034375,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.45784375000002,"end":242.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.65971875000002,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.03096875000003,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.77721875,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.89471875,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.49221875,"end":262.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.47034375000004,"end":267.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.22971875,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.46596875,"end":278.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.07596875,"end":297.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.46971875,"end":307.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.26159375000003,"end":312.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.58971875000003,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.07846875,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.39471875000004,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.37596875,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.87346875000003,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.05471875,"end":343.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.90659375,"end":338.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.47096875,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.88596875,"end":391.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.12159375000005,"end":393.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.62346875000003,"end":394.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.93971875,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.23471875,"end":401.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.27221875000004,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.11159375000005,"end":412.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.67534375,"end":413.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.77659375,"end":424.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.91096875000005,"end":417.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.31471875000005,"end":429.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.37721875000005,"end":431.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.57534375,"end":437.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.40596875000006,"end":438.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.64596875,"end":440.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.89909375,"end":440.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.97471875,"end":445.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.18909375000004,"end":453.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.47971875,"end":510.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.91221875,"end":463.87409375000004},{"spe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"text":"這就是代表說部長會向行政院爭取續辦下一個階段,是嗎?類似這樣,但是名稱不是白雞的言語,就是說針對養豬產業的行為會繼續,升級會繼續。這個一定是要會持續的,因為養豬產業正在轉型中,不能說轉到一半就停掉了。"},{"start":564.222,"end":586.39,"text":"這個本席大力的支持因為對的事情就是要持續去做尤其我們雲林縣是在全國養豬產業的三分之一而且包括大概還有七成的這個豬舍都還沒有被改善希望部長能夠承諾繼續積極的向行政院爭取支持我們養豬產業的升級我想我們已經在做了"},{"start":590.091,"end":594.512,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會議經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第12條條文修正草案：立法院第12會議經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":619.937,"end":620.418,"text":"條文宣告"}]}},{"id":"152508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0683d98c8a21072f596869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e4540c3ce8f2effcf9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:55:20 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10:07:03","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":703,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:07:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:55:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時55分）有請秘書長和次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：關於特赦陳水扁，我有幾個問題想要請教一下。因為民進黨一直強調政治案件政治解決，所以我想請問次長，你覺得陳水扁案是政治案件還是司法案件？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，特赦的權力憲法規定是專屬於總統，我們對總統的職權沒有辦法做過多的評論。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長覺得呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：也是尊重總統的職權。"],["羅委員智強：我好奇一件事情，如果照民進黨的邏輯，這是政治案件的話，我想請教一下，目前陳水扁總統被判決定讞的案件有幾件？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，目前定讞的部分是4件。"],["羅委員智強：4件嘛！除了陳水扁以外，裡面牽連到的一些被判斷確定的其他人有哪些？陳水扁這4個案子牽連到很多人啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，相關的非常多人都已經陸陸續續確定了。"],["羅委員智強：哪些人？吳淑珍、趙健銘……"],["黃次長謀信：對，部分的人都確定了，趙健銘還有他的……"],["羅委員智強：趙玉柱、陳致中、黃睿靚……有些是無罪，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問，那些確定的既然是政治案件，是不是一併特赦？目前總統特赦的範圍是誰？只有陳水扁，還是所有涉案關係人、涉案的被告、涉案被判決確定的對象全部都要特赦呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，本部目前為止都沒有收到任何特赦的轉令說要特赦……"],["羅委員智強：所以今天我要講的第一件事情，全國民眾在關注的是你的特赦範圍到底是陳水扁一個人，還是陳水扁這個貪污集團，當然蔡部長今天沒來，我覺得今天民進黨也好，蔡英文總統也好，要交代清楚。第二個民眾關心的問題，我想請教一下，犯罪所得怎麼處理？如果是特赦陳水扁的話。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，剛剛司法院與本部的報告都有說到，特赦的部分是免除他的刑的執行或者是罪刑宣告無效，前提都是刑……"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["黃次長謀信：但犯罪所得的部分，按照我們修法之後，它並不是主刑，也不是從刑，它是一個特殊處分……"],["羅委員智強：我直接問具體的……"],["黃次長謀信：所以它不會被這個特赦的效力所及。"],["羅委員智強：好，我直接問具體的，針對二次金改元大併復華案，目前陳水扁未繳的個人罰金多少錢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，陳前總統刑的部分確定的部分都執行完畢了……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是未繳罰金。"],["黃次長謀信：罰金的部分也執行完畢了，他這四個案子罰金刑的部分總共是2.5億，都執行完畢了。"],["羅委員智強：執行完畢？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：那海外有多少的錢被凍結？"],["黃次長謀信：現在國內外凍結的資產，有些是不動產，沒有辦法……"],["羅委員智強：大概多少？不會連這個都沒掌握吧！"],["黃次長謀信：大概7億元左右。"],["羅委員智強：7億元左右。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：這7億元歸屬誰？"],["黃次長謀信：他確定的部分已經執行完畢了，但有一部分還在審理當中……"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["黃次長謀信：所以要等判決的結果，才能知道宣告沒收的……"],["羅委員智強：一個是罰金，一個是不法所得，不法所得怎麼處理？"],["黃次長謀信：不法所得就要看判決的主文怎麼宣告……"],["羅委員智強：這四個判決確定的不法所得怎麼處理？"],["黃次長謀信：判決確定部分的不法所得，我們當然就先執行完畢了……"],["羅委員智強：罰金也執行完畢了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：剩下的都是所謂的未辦結確定的，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對、對、對，罰金的部分剩下一點點，不法所得的部分剩下一點點，幾千塊，其他的都執行完畢了。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我想問，換言之，如果發布特赦後，目前海外凍結的這些財產及罰金會繼續凍結，還是就會被解凍了？"],["黃次長謀信：不會，因為他還有……"],["羅委員智強：還有繫屬中的案件嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對、對、對，還有審理中的個案。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我再想請教一下，以目前來說的話，他未判決定讞的有哪些案件？"],["黃次長謀信：他未判決定讞的部分也是四個案子。"],["羅委員智強：四件嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：一個是卸任總統侵占公文書案，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：停審的時間是什麼時候？什麼時候開始停審？"],["黃次長謀信：102年的12月20日停審。"],["羅委員智強：102年12月停審，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：到現在幾年了？11年，對不對？我想請問當時停審的原因是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：這是審判的職權。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長，停審的原因是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個涉及到個案，刑事廳……"],["羅委員智強：不會吧！今天來專案報告，陳水扁特赦案，連停審的原因都不知道！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是因為疾病不能出庭。"],["羅委員智強：因為疾病不可以出庭，對。那我想請教兩位，陳水扁最近做了一件大家非常為他開心的事，是什麼事你知道嗎？陳水扁還可以擔任陳幸妤的訴訟代理人，替他牙醫診所醫療糾紛的官司辯護，自己沒有辦法出庭自己的官司，身體不好，倒是女兒的官司，他身體很好，擔任訴訟代理人，又可以出庭！今天不只是我們剛剛講的侵占公文書案已經停審了11年，都以身體健康因素來停審，還有包括陳敏薰買官延伸的洗錢案，請問是什麼時候停審的？"],["黃次長謀信：104年5月13日。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！然後國務機要費教唆偽證案什麼時候停審的？"],["黃次長謀信：103年1月28日。"],["羅委員智強：然後二次金改國泰金併世華銀案又是什麼時候停審的？"],["黃次長謀信：104年8月31日。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請教一下，陳水扁都要被特赦了，這些案子什麼時候審？他身體健康的狀況有到連出庭都不行嗎？出庭都不行嗎？請問停審的標準到底是怎麼認定？誰來判斷？秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：原則上，這個是屬於審判核心事項，基於審判獨立，是由個案承審法官本於權責來判斷。"],["羅委員智強：都很一致，全部都停審，這四個案子的法官都一樣嗎？都一樣嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些有的在高院，有的在地院。"],["羅委員智強：我要講一件事，說真的，今天對於陳水扁要不要特赦，你剛剛講總統職權，如果蔡英文真的要特赦，沒關係，民進黨要留一個特赦貪污總統的歷史紀錄，剛剛莊瑞雄委員講8項紀錄，前面絕大多數不是良心犯，就是政治犯，如果民進黨要創一個特赦貪污總統的紀錄，也由得民進黨，可是我就要請問後面的官司還要不要判？後面的官司，蔡英文可以特赦嗎？可以嗎？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：本部報告寫得很清楚，特赦限於已經判決確定的……"],["羅委員智強：當然，他沒辦法特赦，等到判決確定，也輪不到他特赦，那我想問，這是什麼？分期付款嗎？蔡英文特赦完之後，剩下的沒被判的案件，等到賴清德上任以後，又被判罪了，是不是要再特赦一次？再特赦一次嗎？四個案子分別四次判就特赦四次的意思，是這個概念嗎？還有一件事我想請教兩位，你知道高雄曾經發生監獄暴動，挾持典獄長的事情，記不記得？"],["黃次長謀信：大寮。"],["羅委員智強：記得嘛！大寮，對不對？他們有一個訴求你不會忘記吧！跟陳水扁有關，六項訴求其中有一個訴求跟陳水扁有關，哪一項訴求？哪一項訴求？我告訴你，次長，要掌握清楚一點，因為你今天來做專案報告，跟陳水扁有關的不只是審判案件，還有包括保外就醫，當時那6個受刑人說他們要暴動的原因之一就是無法忍受陳水扁怎麼樣？為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫？請問監所裡面比陳水扁健康狀況更嚴重的有沒有存在？有沒有？有沒有？有沒有保外就醫？"],["黃次長謀信：我們現在每年就將近有300、400個保外就醫的。"],["羅委員智強：保外就醫是什麼樣的狀況？當時啦！我知道你們後面改了一堆規定，當時保外就醫是指在監所病重到不能在監所治療啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對，是不能醫治或無法醫治。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！不能醫治或無法醫治……"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：如果感冒發燒，可不可以保外就醫？可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：具體地適不適用保外醫治的規定當然……"],["羅委員智強：當然不可以，連這個你都答不出來！"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我還沒講完，它有一定的程序要去審核。"],["羅委員智強：可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：委員，你是講感冒嗎？"],["羅委員智強：感冒發燒可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：通常合理第三人來看，這個當然是認為不行啊！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！今天他都已經可以當訴訟代理人、可以上直播、可以「趴趴走」，你覺得他有病重到不能夠在監所內為醫治之行為嗎？有嗎？從正常客觀第三人來看，你剛剛講的，有嗎？沒有啦！我幫你回答，我知道你不方便啦！","今天在陳水扁身上，說真的，大家對特赦的問題談論的還不只是總統職權的特赦，總統還有憲法依據特赦他，保外就醫的制度已經被陳水扁踐踏到連高雄都為之發生監獄暴動了，這個所謂停審也是為陳水扁量身停審了11年、10年，我就只問一件事情，司法院，當然你不能干預個案，可是我要請所有法官也要接受社會公評，陳水扁現在這個狀況，停審的原因到底還存在嗎？所有的人能夠跟陳水扁一樣接受停審的待遇，從此之後停審300年，逍遙法外嗎？如果現在他這個狀況可以停審，他的停審叫無限期，你相不相信？現在他可以繼續停審的話，我們臺灣的司法公正在哪裡？總統特赦還有憲法的依據，保外就醫現在量身定做、停審也量身定做，為陳水扁1人而設，這才是今天整個司法被踐踏的核心原因，謝謝。"],["主席：我們休息1分鐘。","休息（10時7分）","繼續開會（10時8分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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各位報告陳千東董行的部分確定的部分都執行完畢我講的是未繳罰金罰金的部分也執行完畢了他總共這四個案子的罰金行的部分是2.5億都執行完畢了執行完畢啊對那海外有多少的那個錢被凍結?"},{"start":208.243,"end":228.612,"text":"現在國內外的這個凍結的資產大概他有一些是不凍產他要沒有辦法大概多少嗎我連這都沒掌握吧大概7億元左右7億元左右那這7億元歸屬誰因為確定部分已經執行完畢了但他有一部分還是在審理當中對所以要等判決的結果"},{"start":231.115,"end":239.741,"text":"一個是罰金 一個是不罰所得 不罰所得怎麼處理不罰所得就要看判決的主文怎麼宣告四個判決確定的不罰所得怎麼處理"},{"start":241.192,"end":241.992,"text":"目前海外凍結的這些財產跟罰金"},{"start":263.1,"end":265.101,"text":"以目前來說的話就是我們未判決定業有哪些案件"},{"start":280.709,"end":299.752,"text":"他未判決定讞的部分還有也是4個案子事件嘛對一個是卸任總統侵占公文書案嘛對不對對停審的時間是什麼時候什麼時候開始停審102年的12月20號停審的102年就102年12月停審嘛對不對到現在幾年了13年了嘛11年了11年11年對不對我想請問當時停審原因是什麼"},{"start":310.239,"end":311.16,"text":"那我想請教我們的兩位"},{"start":336.277,"end":361.291,"text":"你知道陳水扁最近做了一件大家覺得非常為他開心的事是什麼事你知道嗎因為陳水扁還可以擔任陳信宇的訴訟代理人然後替他牙醫診所醫療糾紛辯護還能夠自己沒有辦法出庭自己的官司身體不好倒是女兒的官司她身體很好訴訟代理人又可以出庭"},{"start":363.203,"end":387.198,"text":"我現在問的是今天請問我剛剛講不只是我們剛剛講的這個還有什麼這個我們講青藏公文書的已經停審了11年都以身體健康因素來停審還有包括陳敏勳買官延伸的洗錢案請問是什麼時候停審的?104年5月13號對啊然後國務紀要費教授委政案什麼時候停審的?103年1月28號"},{"start":390.953,"end":408.026,"text":"然後二次經改國泰經病釋華銀案又是什麼時候停審的?104年8月31號那我想請教一下陳水扁都被特赦了那這些案子什麼時候審啊?他身體健康的狀況有到連出庭都不行嗎?出庭都不行嗎?請問那個停審到底是的標準是怎麼認定?誰來判斷?秘書長"},{"start":422.146,"end":448.605,"text":"這個齁是原則上齁這個是屬於這個審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁是由這個個案成審法官本於前者來判斷的都很一致阿全部都停審阿這四個案子法官都一樣嗎都一樣嗎這個齁那應該這個有的在高院有的在低院阿我要講一件事阿"},{"start":450.117,"end":476.135,"text":"今天民眾說真的對於陳水扁要不要特赦你剛剛講總統職權已經特赦完的東西如果陳水扁真的要特赦沒關係民進黨要留一個特赦貪污總統的歷史紀錄像剛剛莊育雄委員講八項紀錄前面絕大多數不是良心犯就是政治犯如果民進黨要創一個特赦貪污總統的紀錄那也由得民進黨"},{"start":477.352,"end":505.073,"text":"可是我就要問那請問後面的官司還要不要判啊?後面的官司蔡英文可以特赦嗎?可以嗎?市長本部報告也寫得很清楚特赦現已判決確定當然啦他沒辦法特赦啊對等到判決確定也輪不到他特赦啊那我想問是什麼分期付款嗎?蔡英文特赦完之後剩下沒被判的案件等到愛情人上任以後又被判罪了還是不是要再特赦一次?"},{"start":506.141,"end":533.41,"text":"要特赦一次嗎?四個案子,四次分別判就特赦四次的意思,是這個概念嗎?所以回頭我就要說,還有一件事我想請教兩位你知道高雄曾經發生監獄暴動嗎?挾持典獄長的事情,記不記得?記得嘛,大寮嘛,對不對?他們訴求,有一個訴求你不會忘記吧,跟陳水扁有關六項訴求,有一個訴求跟陳水扁有關,哪一項訴求?"},{"start":536.192,"end":562.646,"text":"哪一項訴求?我告訴你這個市長要掌握清楚一點因為你今天來做專案報告跟陳水扁有關的不只是審判案件啦還有包括保外就醫啦當時那些六個我們的那個受刑人啊他們說他們要暴動的原因之一就是無法忍受陳水扁怎麼樣為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫"},{"start":564.778,"end":592.771,"text":"請問監所有沒有比陳水扁健康更嚴重的有沒有存在有沒有有沒有有沒有保外就醫我們現在每年就將近有三四百個保外就醫的保外就醫是什麼樣的狀況當時啦我知道你們後面改了一堆規定啦當時在保外就醫是指在監所病重到不能再監所治療啦對他是不能醫治或無法醫治對啊不能醫治或無法醫治啊"},{"start":593.953,"end":614.432,"text":"阿如果感冒發燒可不可以保外就醫可不可以他具體的是不是用保外醫治的規定那當然他要當然不可以連這個你都答不出來我還沒講完他有一定的程序要去審可不可以嘛委員你是講感冒嗎感冒發燒可以嗎通常合理第三人來看這個當然是認為不行阿對啊"},{"start":616.291,"end":624.357,"text":"那今天都已經到可以到訴訟代理人可以上直播可以趴趴走你覺得他有病重到不能夠在監所內為醫治之行為嗎?有嗎?從正常客觀第三人來看你剛剛講的有嗎?沒有啦我幫你回答我知道你不方便啦"},{"start":634.639,"end":659.946,"text":"今天在陳水扁身上其實說真的大家對特赦的問題談論的還不只是總統職權的特赦總統還有憲法依據特赦他保衛就醫的制度被陳水扁已經踐踏到連高雄都為他發生監獄暴動了啦然後這個所謂停審也是為陳水扁量身停審了十幾年11年10年那我就只問一件事情我也請司法院"},{"start":661.828,"end":690.197,"text":"當然你不能干預個案可是我要請所有法官也要接受社會公平陳雪扁這個現在狀況停審原因到底還存在嗎所有的人跟陳雪扁一樣能夠接受停審的待遇然後從此之後停審300年逍遙法外嗎如果現在這狀況可以停審他的停審叫無限期你相不相信現在就可以停審的話繼續停審的話那台灣我們的司法公正在哪裡特赦還有憲法總統的依據"},{"start":691.704,"end":693.465,"text":"這才是今天整個司法被踐踏的核心原因"}]}},{"id":"152507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c093168fc6f21c2191ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45bad02b2ffd216a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:52:48 - 10:07:07","影片長度":"00:14:19","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":859,"end_time":"2024-05-15T10:07:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:52:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。辛苦！今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身分的最後一次備詢。本席在這邊好像也陪伴你好幾年的時間了。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們今天做一些review，還有討論一些重要的事情。因為外交是延續的，不管哪個政黨執政，不管誰當部長，外交累積的資本跟外交的風險是會往下傳的，全民要一起承受。"],["吳部長釗燮：是，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：所以我第一個先請教這個問題，坦白說，我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國具長期隱憂，我個人比較會是往前說一步，事實上面對中共大撒幣的攻勢，大概所有的邦交國，甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂。但是你特別會提出兩個，通常我們在觀測這個狀況，在於該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化，或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場，才會點出這兩個嘛！你即將卸任外交部長，目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國，你認為它的風險控管，還有下一步我們該怎麼處理？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，我會提出說是長期的隱憂，就是說在中長期……"],["王委員定宇：你的long term是多長？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個沒有辦法確定，但是在短期間之內，1年、2年、3年之內，那個都沒有問題，甚至其中的一個，我看未來的10年、15年、20年也都沒有問題，但會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢，的確對我們來講必須要很關注。譬如有一個友邦內部陷入非常紛亂的狀況，當然我們就必須寄予關心，這種情勢會不會導致一些我們不想看到的局面，當然我們必須要很密切觀察。另外一個友邦，是因為中國利用各式各樣的方式滲透到這個友邦裡面，雖然這個友邦跟我們的關係非常非常好，但是因為中國的這種滲透力道不斷加強，我們也不斷在關心當中。"],["王委員定宇：我說軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡，補給線也建立了，你就應該要開始擔心嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是，我想這次520的時候可以給大家一個很好的觀察，就是所有的友邦對我們都是非常支持，所以不是那個國家的元首就是總理、外交部長……"],["王委員定宇：幾乎都是代表性的人物過來。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：我點名問一個，我們在委員會這兩、三屆在關心的，對於教廷國，目前外交部的評估是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於教廷的部分，因為他們隨時隨地都希望能夠跟中國重啟教務的協商，或者renew他們教務的協議，但是他們每次跟中國進行洽談的時候，也都會告訴我們，就是說這些洽談都是涉及到教務，跟政治外交沒有關係。"],["王委員定宇：因為前幾年香港的前主教提出警告嘛！那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒，無可厚非。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：當時擔心臺灣在歐洲唯一的，就是梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響。所以就外交部的評估，目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內？"],["吳部長釗燮：那個沒有問題，因為最主要就是，他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議，以造福在中國的天主教徒。"],["王委員定宇：中國所有的宗教人員都要屬於共產黨，都要官派的。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以一旦教廷國在那邊，任命權做折衷的時候，就是危機的開始，曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關任命……"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：但是後來連他們要的也都沒有任命就停下來了。這個是外交部分的review。","第二個是有關我們內部，為什麼提告？我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題，我先問在外交上的理由，因為你是外交部。當然機密文件、秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院，我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告，我們也可以開機密會議，而且所有的這些資料是你們送到立法院的，不是被挖出來的。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以對立法院來講，它不是機密，它已經揭露給我們看了。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們在研究之後為什麼會提告，有沒有外交上的理由？"],["吳部長釗燮：有，外交上當然是有理由，因為我們跟其他國家會有這些協議，就是因為有高度的互信、知道可以彼此來互相幫忙。可是很多的部分不適合公開，尤其沒有經過雙方的同意是不適合公開的，如果加以公開的話，這個可能就涉及到刑法第一百三十二條的相關規定，在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些挫折，尤其是……"],["王委員定宇：我們的機密大概就是根據國家機密保護法核定的，這是一種，軍事機密是一種。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：第三種就是一般機密嘛？"],["吳部長釗燮：公務機密。"],["王委員定宇：公務機密嘛！外交上的理由，大概是基於跟合作夥伴之間的互信。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯，尤其這些重要的合作夥伴或者理念相近的國家，有很多合作項目的確不適合公開。"],["王委員定宇：那有人說3月份捷克期刊就已經報導了，我們看內容……"],["吳部長釗燮：他們報導的是一部分，但沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看，所以這個部分仍然是密……"],["王委員定宇：就是雙方的附錄各方面，何況報導跟具官方性的國會議員或者官員去確認，這是兩件事情。報導的話，其實雙方可以禮貌地否認，但是一旦官方去確認，有時候轉折的空間都沒有了，所以外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信。那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子而產生一些變化？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前他們跟我們的合作態度還是非常明確，基本上我們雙方也簽有MOU，雙方都依照這個MOU來走。捷克的這一個機構，就是捷克生物科技院的院長，他曾經在上個禮拜對外闡述他們的心情，就是說在他們跟臺灣很誠心地合作來協助烏克蘭的這件事情上面，似乎受到了很多汙衊，說他們是圖利特定的政治人物等等。"],["王委員定宇：說他們是醫材公司。"],["吳部長釗燮：他們表達說非常地遺憾，而且他們感到非常地傷心。對於這種好朋友，我們這樣子去形容真的是很不好。"],["王委員定宇：我也不說好朋友，就是說在合作的夥伴上，有時候我們在某一些國家要建立，事實上中東歐親中的國會議員還相當多。"],["吳部長釗燮：不少。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個要破壞是蠻快的。昨天有媒體大亨趙少康說要弄死你們外交部核密的那個公務員，你們有沒有看到那個新聞？"],["吳部長釗燮：如果把我們外交部這些機密的文件全部都攤開來的話，臺灣大概也不用搞外交了。"],["王委員定宇：他現在是回頭說那個核密的。如果這個密等不夠機密，我都弄死你。他講的是用「弄死」這兩個字，我聽到嚇了一大跳！那位同仁，或者你身為部長有什麼感受？"],["吳部長釗燮：我覺得這個很不好，外交是我們國家的事情，外交部是某一個政黨的事情，而且外交是有延續性的，在蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統，他的外交是由蔡英文總統承接；蔡英文總統的外交是由賴清德總統承接，所以這個有延續性。如果把我們的外交……"],["王委員定宇：基本上我們對外簽訂MOU，彼此要求保密的情形下，你們按照法律就會送到我們立法院核備嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以這是一個公務員按照規範而常態性在做的事情，政治的攻防，不要去恐嚇公務員。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：這個也不應該。"],["吳部長釗燮：對。"],["王委員定宇：外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員，他不屬於任何一個政黨，怎麼會不順意就要弄死他！這個……"],["吳部長釗燮：我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子比喻，譬如我們的道路上面會有這些交通號誌，這就是一個規範，大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少車禍等等的狀況；如果堅持要把這些號誌拿掉、把這些交通規範拿掉的話，我想臺北的交通會陷入大亂。"],["王委員定宇：要拿掉有它的流程，不能在沒有拿掉之前，就說這支紅燈對我無效，那就撞在一起了。","接下來我要請教一個比較嚴肅的話題，中華民國臺灣外交部等於是國家的發言人，中華民國臺灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法，我要請你正式地表達看法。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["王委員定宇：你離開前，本席在外交及國防委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法，也就是現在南海有軍演，中共在那邊一下子去騷擾菲律賓的經濟水域，一下子跟越南有衝突，在那邊用他們的海警船、用水砲攻擊菲律賓的海巡船，造成人員的傷害。美日菲高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法，還啟動軍演，目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置，當然中共也宣布它在那邊要啟動相關軍演。我們國家的太平島在那裡，它是我們國家的領域，近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理、擁有這塊我們的島。我現在要請教，站在比較宏觀的、以中華民國外交部長的身分，我們對南海的態度是什麼？請發表。"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，其實我們早在2016年7月南海仲裁之後，政府就已經透過國安會的會議結論對外發表我們的立場，立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變，這個立場主要的內容就是，我們對於南海諸島的主權以及相關海域的權利是毋庸置疑的……"],["王委員定宇：它是我們國家的。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是屬於我們國家的，但是我們也支持自由航行、自由飛越的權利，對於南海的爭議，我們必須要尋和平的方式來加以解決，尤其是南海的資源應該是要以大家互利共享的方式來進行開發，我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變。"],["王委員定宇：這個立場是一貫延續的？"],["吳部長釗燮：一貫延續的。"],["王委員定宇：不管什麼政黨執政，我們對南海的看法就是這一個，就是主權是我們的，支持國際海域、空域的自由航行權、和平解決紛爭以及大家一起共榮，大概是這個方向，我覺得我們把這個立場再講清楚。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，你剛剛講的問題裡面還有第二個部分，就是涉及到最近中國跟菲律賓的爭議，或者是說中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式，我們也發言過很多次，就是對於中國挑起南海地區的爭議，或者是在他對外的聲張是無限擴大的狀況，我們是不予認同的。第三個，從整個全球戰略的角度來看，的確南海地區的緊張情勢是不斷的升高，這個緊張情勢不斷升高的理由，就是中國他的assertion、他的主權的主張是不斷的擴張，而且他對於在區域的這些國家或者是說經過區域的這種自由航行的行為，都用一種不安全、不專業的方式，造成區域的緊張。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長，其實我們對南海的立場堅定，我們國家的利益要顧著。","在最後30秒，我必須對部長講一些話，確實因為中共的外交攻勢，我們的正式邦交國失去了一些，那是令人遺憾的，我們也該檢討，也是外交上我們可以詮釋為挫敗，縱使中共用大撒幣，我們失去了一些邦交國，縱使有些邦交國見利忘義，但是我們還是要去面對，因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務。但是這幾年來，吳部長還有所有外交部的同仁，你們讓臺灣被國際看見，你們讓臺灣的重要性被各國重視，所以不管是G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、Quad，或是主流國家的二加二，甚至於上次美日菲的三加三，臺灣永遠是前三名被關心希望和平穩定安全的國家。坦白講，你去看7年前，這是不存在的，我還沒有去算國際媒體期刊的報導，我現在講的是正式國家的會議，像G7這些。美國是我們最重要的外交關係，在臺美的部分，不管是BTA，或者是安全合作軍售的常態化，以及友臺的法案、歐盟，所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方，在外交的戰場上是真實面對真刀真槍的戰場，外交人員辛苦了！作為部長，你跟所有外交部的同仁，大家在外交的第一線捍衛我們國家的尊嚴跟主權，而這幾年我們跟主流世界、主流民主國家、理念相近國家關係的提升有目共睹，所以不好的我們檢討，好的給予肯定，這幾年你辛苦了，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員，非常感謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ 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老大辛苦那今天是你在我們立法院以外交部長身份最後一次備詢是那本席在這邊好像跟你也陪伴你好幾年的時間是我們今天做一些review還有一些重要事情來討論一下因為外交是延續的不管哪個政黨執政不管誰當部長外交累積的資本跟外交的風險"},{"start":39.299,"end":65.452,"text":"他是會往下傳的是全民要一起承受的第一個先請教這個問題坦白說我那天聽到你說有兩個邦交國有長期隱憂我個人會比較往前說一步是要面對中共大撒幣的攻勢大概所有的邦交國甚至於我們既存的參與國際組織都有長期隱憂但是你特別會提出兩個"},{"start":67.293,"end":92.611,"text":"通常我們在monitor在觀測這個狀況是該國的內部政治局勢是不是發生變化或者中國有重大的資源集中攻勢在哪個外交戰場才會點出這兩個以你即將卸任外交部長目前我們具備長期隱憂的這兩國你認為他的風險控管還有下一步我們該怎麼處理"},{"start":94.162,"end":100.273,"text":"非常謝謝委員吼那我會提出說是長期的隱憂就是說在中段期你溝通多長?這個這個"},{"start":102.648,"end":124.725,"text":"沒有辦法去確定,但是在短期間之內,一年兩年三年之內,那個都沒有問題,甚至是其中的一個是我看未來的10年15年20年也都沒有問題,但是會有長期的隱憂是因為看到那個趨勢,的確是對我們來講,我們必須要很關注,比如說有一個友邦他們的內部是陷入非常紛亂的這個狀況,"},{"start":126.727,"end":127.448,"text":"有的軍事上是看到敵人已經有灘頭堡了"},{"start":156.561,"end":157.542,"text":"我點名問一個我們在委員會這兩三屆在關心的"},{"start":181.209,"end":182.65,"text":"在前幾年香港的前主教提出警告"},{"start":208.01,"end":236.32,"text":"那幾年確實看到教廷國想要照顧中國教區的信徒無可厚非當時擔心台灣在歐洲唯一的梵蒂岡教廷國會有影響所以就外交部的評估目前教廷國並不在那兩國之內那個沒有問題因為最主要就是說他們跟中國在接觸是希望能夠有一些教務的協議來造福在中國的那個建築教徒中國所有宗教人員都要屬於共產黨的"},{"start":237.12,"end":263.475,"text":"對都要官派的對所以一旦教廷國在那邊任命權做折衷的時候就是危機開始曾經他要承認他們的愛國教會相關的任命對但後來連他們要的也都沒有被任命就停下來了好這個是外交部分的review第二個是有關我們在內部為什麼提告我要問的倒不是大家曾經討論過的這些問題我先問在外交上的理由因為你是外交部"},{"start":264.515,"end":285.629,"text":"當然機密文件秘密文件循法律管道送到立法院我們可以要求你私下跟我們報告我們也可以開機密會議而且這個所謂的資料是你們送到立法院的不是被挖出來的所以機密對立法院來講它不是機密它已經揭露給我們看了在研究之後為什麼會提告外交上有沒有外交的理由"},{"start":286.311,"end":313.344,"text":"有,外交上當然是有理由因為我們會跟其他國家會有這些協議就是因為有高度的這個互信知道說可以彼此來互相幫忙那可是這些很多的這個部分是不適合公開尤其是沒有經過雙方的這個同意是不適合公開的那如果說加以公開的話這個可能就涉及到那個刑法第132條的相關的規定在外交上面可能也會讓我們受到一些"},{"start":313.404,"end":315.105,"text":"尤其是這些重要的這些合作夥伴或者是說理念相近國家有很多的這些合作的項目的確是不適合公開"},{"start":338.536,"end":365.879,"text":"三月份捷克期間就已經報導了嘛像我們看的內容啦他們報導的是一部分但是沒有把這個文件拿出來給大家看所以這個部分還是秘密就是雙方的賦錄各方面何況報導跟官方去就有具有官方的國會議員或者是官員去確認這是兩件事情報導的話其實雙方可以禮貌的否認但是一旦官方去確認有時候轉折的空間都沒有了所以"},{"start":366.519,"end":389.767,"text":"外交上的理由大概是基於彼此的互信那我們的合作方有沒有因為這樣子產生一些變化目前他們跟我們的合作的態度還是非常的明確基本上我們雙方也是簽有這個MOU那雙方都依照這個MOU來走這個捷克的這個機構就是捷克生物科技院的這個院長"},{"start":390.467,"end":414.693,"text":"他曾經在上個禮拜對外來闡述他們的這個心情就是說在他們跟台灣很誠心的合作來協助烏克蘭這件事情上面似乎受到了很多的這些誣衊說他們是圖利特定的政治引入等等的他們表達說這個非常的遺憾而且他們感到非常的傷心那對於這種好朋友我們去這樣子的形容真的是很不好"},{"start":415.333,"end":418.554,"text":"如果把我們外交部的這些機密的這些文件全部都攤開來的話我們台灣大概也不用搞外交了"},{"start":442.659,"end":450.121,"text":"他現在是回頭講說那個核密的如果這個密不夠密我都弄死你他講的是弄死這兩個字我聽到嚇了一大跳"},{"start":452.062,"end":476.615,"text":"那位同仁或者你身為部長有什麼感受我覺得這個很不好啦就是說外交是我們國家的事情外交不是某一個政黨的事情而且外交這個是有延續性的在那個蔡英文總統之前是馬英九總統他的這個外交是由蔡英文總統來承接蔡英文總統的這個外交是由賴清德總統來承接所以這個是有延續性的"},{"start":477.435,"end":493.099,"text":"我們對外簽訂MOU彼此要求保密的情形下你們會按照法律就送到我們立法院合備嘛所以這是一個公務員按照規範常態性在做的事情政治的攻防不要去恐嚇公務員這個不應該啦"},{"start":495.76,"end":524.725,"text":"外交人員或者任何部會人員都是國家的公務人員他不屬於任何一個政黨怎麼會不順利就要弄死他我在這邊也跟委員用一個例子來比比如說我們的道路上面會有這些交通的這個號誌那這個就是一個規範大家遵守這個規範的話就會減少這種車禍等等的這些狀況那如果說堅持要把這些號誌拿掉要把這些交通規範拿掉的話那我想我們台北的這個交通會陷入大亂"},{"start":525.305,"end":529.488,"text":"中華民國台灣外交部對目前南海局勢的看法我要請你正式的表達看法這是你離開前本席在外交委員會要請你就南海局勢發表看法"},{"start":556.045,"end":577.17,"text":"中共在那邊一下子去騷擾這個菲律賓的經濟水域一下子跟越南有衝突然後呢在那一邊呢他們用他們的海警船用水砲去攻擊菲律賓的海巡船造成人員傷害那美日菲的高峰會也針對這個局勢發表看法還啟動軍演"},{"start":580.891,"end":604.809,"text":"然後目前美軍有相當多的軍力跟盟友放在那個位置那當然中共也宣布他那邊要啟動相關的軍演那我們國家的太平島在那裡他是我們國家的領域近幾年大概也沒有人挑戰我們實質管理擁有這塊我們的島我現在要請教的是站在比較宏觀的以中華民國外交部長"},{"start":606.104,"end":609.669,"text":"非常謝謝委員其實我們早在2016年的7月南海仲裁之後政府已經透過國安會的會議結論"},{"start":621.224,"end":636.739,"text":"已經對外發表我們的這個立場,立場到目前為止一個字都沒有改變那這個立場的主要的內容就是說我們對於南海諸島的這個主權以及相關海域的這個權利這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":637.199,"end":663.179,"text":"這是屬於我們國家的但是我們也支持自由航行自由飛躍的這種權利那對於南海的這個爭議我們必須要去尋和平的這個方式來加以解決那尤其是這個南海的資源應該是要大家互利共享的這種方式來進行開發那我們的立場到目前為止是一個字都沒有改變這個立場是一貫延續的不管"},{"start":665.401,"end":666.422,"text":"你剛剛講的這個問題裡面還有第二個部分就是涉及到最近那個中國跟菲律賓的這些爭議"},{"start":688.102,"end":706.253,"text":"中國在對菲律賓施壓的這種方式那我們也發言過很多次就是說對於中國挑起南海地區的這個爭議或者是說在他的這種對外的這種聲張是無限的擴大的這個狀況我們是不予認同的那第三個是整個全球戰略"},{"start":707.073,"end":707.413,"text":"謝謝部長其實我們對南海的立場堅定"},{"start":736.744,"end":754.589,"text":"那我們國家的利益要顧著在最後30秒我必須對部長講一些話確實因為中共的外交公事我們的正式邦交國失去了一些那是令人遺憾"},{"start":755.669,"end":772.735,"text":"我們也該檢討也是外交上我們可以詮釋為錯敗縱使中共用大撒幣我們失去了一些邦交國縱使有些邦交國建立妄議但是我們還是要去面對因為正式的邦交國也是重要的外交事務但是這幾年來"},{"start":774.916,"end":785.171,"text":"吳部長還有我們所有外交部的同仁你們讓台灣被國際看見你們讓台灣的重要性被各國重視所以不管在"},{"start":786.311,"end":814.077,"text":"對G7、AUKUS、歐盟、NATO、QUAD主流國家的2加2甚至於上次美日非的3加3台灣永遠是在前三名被關心希望和平、穩定、安全的國家這個在坦白講你去看7年前這是不存在的我還沒有去算國際媒體期間的報導我現在講的是正式國家的會議G7這些"},{"start":817.961,"end":834.582,"text":"美國是我們最重要的外交關係在台美的部分不管是BTA或者是安全合作軍售的常態化以及友台的法案歐盟所以我們外交還有很多困難的地方在外交的戰場上是真實的面對"},{"start":836.101,"end":836.121,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c02ac918eb39eb8db0881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e4510a5482d5f91316a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:53:22 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Code……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你常常去看，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：對，他們提升真的非常多。至於委員剛剛所提到的這些風電的振動、音頻是不是會影響到文蛤的生產，目前應該沒有相關的文獻，但我們會照委員的指……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，因為沒有相關的文獻，所以我才要麻煩你，你們那裡最多博士……"],["張署長致盛：是，沒有問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：應該要對於相關的問題做研究，你們如果研究出來有相關的影響，也要提供給經濟部，是不是？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：也要跟它溝通，或者提供給內政部，對於未來相關的法規設計，我們就要把這一項考量進去，好不好？"],["張署長致盛：是，我們一定會注重整個生產的環境。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。部長，可不可以？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我一定會用科技計畫去支持相關的研究，特別是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我最支持科技計畫了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我最支持農業的科技計畫。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想包括風機的音頻對於養殖的那些……可能要專門的計畫去研究。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：包括其他光電的影響，我們會有一個專案計畫去做。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請你們做相關的研究，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 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{"start":270.323,"end":286.909,"text":"對,我們一定會改。我們盡量有效溝通。這樣子對我們臺灣的農業才會有幫助。還有我想要再請問一下余燁曙,就是文革的我們方院就是一個很重大的文革的產區。"},{"start":288.41,"end":309.201,"text":"那我們現在都在推動這種履歷產銷的文革還有甚至有一些青農已經都做到了就是有機的文革喔那這個對於未來台灣的文革出口以及台灣文革的品牌建立是非常重要的一個課題"},{"start":310.823,"end":329.197,"text":"但我們知道,最近有一些入獄的風電以及跟環境有相關的垃圾的這種廢棄物的排放等等會影響到文革養殖產區的這個"},{"start":331.699,"end":352.671,"text":"他們的養殖環境,你可以問漁業署長啊,他做專業啊,張署長對不對,你就跟他說啊,影響文革的生長,有時候連冬天的氣候,溫度是不是驟降,水溫是不是改變,都可能影響文革的生長。我想要請問漁業署長的事。"},{"start":355.485,"end":369.666,"text":"如果你們有沒有做研究你們是不是可以回去做研究到底這個陸域風機它所產生的低頻振動以及低頻的噪音會不會導致文革的產量的問題"},{"start":371.189,"end":393.964,"text":"那在這個這個養殖專區裡面你們是不是有什麼所謂的養殖專區的什麼就是說還可以設立某一個部分可以設立這樣子的光電的就是就是綠能的這個專區所以是不是如果在養殖旁邊 余燕淑你不要跟他說了啦你等一下你回答就好了啦 蘇長你回答就好了"},{"start":396.109,"end":423.829,"text":"是不是你是不是可以回去也可以折成水事所來做相關的研究?是,謝謝委員那彰化的文革齁最近有一些漁業青年回去以後確實整個品質大幅提升包括在產銷履歷你常常去看阿對不對對對對他們提升真的非常的多那至於委員剛剛所提到的說這些風電啦震動啦這些音頻是不是會影響到文革的生產目前應該是沒有相關的文獻但我們會照委員的指"},{"start":424.249,"end":447.129,"text":"因為你沒有相關的文獻,所以我才要麻煩你,你那裡太多破碎了嘛,這個應該要對於這個相關做研究,那你們如果研究出來,如果有相關的影響,你也要提供給經濟部啊,是不是?也要跟他溝通啊,或者是提供給內政部啊,對於相關未來的法規設計的時候,我們就要把這一項考量進去啊,好不好?"},{"start":447.609,"end":469.915,"text":"是,我們一定會注重那個整個生產的環境部長可不可以我想我一定會用科技計畫去支持相關的研究我最支持科技計畫了我最支持農業的科技計畫包括風機的一些低音頻對於養殖的那些那個可能要專門的計畫去研究包括其他的光電的部分的影響我想我們會有一個專門的計畫去做好,謝謝你"}]}},{"id":"152505","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152505","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c05801a5c49e246acd96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e456e51ee5f22fc1dfe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:44:25 - 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吼!法律都規定那個地方 規定在那個地方啊 總統特別大 這個是憲法規定的給他這個總統專屬的特權只是說 社會上要如何去非難 去做一個評價 那是另外一件事"},{"start":322.85,"end":349.648,"text":"秘書長請回我要請教次長的就是說次長我要請教你就是說這個講起來就沉重了這位期裡面可能就是最後一次的一個質詢那我要在這個地方做一個提醒就是說三年前發生的那個太魯閣出軌的一個事件那上個禮拜母親節的前夕在隧道裡面又發現了遺害那三年前的事故在305還在事故的地點發現遺害這個民眾"},{"start":352.947,"end":375.402,"text":"這我們從媒體上在看到我們也都會覺得說現場在採證的時候那當然一定是不夠仔細民眾第一個想法一定是如此我相信法務部你也不好意思去做任何的一個辯解因為就在更久之前你看那個2018所發生的普悠瑪事件的車廂竟然在5年後就是去年的9月也去發現了遺害跟遺留物"},{"start":378.063,"end":403.743,"text":"這個我們可以理解整個搜救的一個現場裡面難度是很高誰也不願意發生這種事我相信我們檢警人員他們也不管從檢察官或者辨識人員甚至搜救小組每個人到了現場都是努力再去協助現場的一個清理可是 社長我要講的就是可是畢竟受害者的家屬我們如果站在他們的角度去看的話"},{"start":405.377,"end":410.341,"text":"這個他們會想說我已經過那麼多年了人也都圓滿、錄斂、安葬就算DNA比對找到遺害現在怎麼處理都不對啊那還要家屬拿著放到"},{"start":424.302,"end":452.749,"text":"納古塔這個不僅僅是一種忌諱對這種往生者跟家屬的一個不尊重尤其是讓他們再去想起這種傷心的一個往事所以我要請教次長就是說有沒有針對類似的事情這種事情我們去做內部的一個檢討比如說如何再加速恢復現場跟整個完整的一個搜救的一個清理取得一個比較好的平衡我們就不希望這種事情"},{"start":453.609,"end":454.509,"text":"發生這種事對家屬也好對我們國家也好當然是一個不好的事情"},{"start":470.815,"end":490.534,"text":"我們本部也自認為該檢討就是應該要檢討這涉及到相驗發生的時候檢察官的相驗工作跟相關的目的主管機關行政機關的行政分工的問題事後這個案子發生之後我們的確在個案上我們也做檢討通案上我們也修正了我們一個重大相驗案件的一個內部的一個要點"},{"start":491.195,"end":517.92,"text":"我們把要點做修正之後我們訂了一定的SOB流程要求我們檢察官如何的在重大案件發生之後相關案件發生之後如何跟行政機關如何對接如何的協調事後如何的交接交接這相關的章政務處理完善之後才可以結束這個個案這要點我們在去年就修了做一個設定的修了社長這不要開玩笑了你看病人現在醫院很怕出錯"},{"start":519.073,"end":545.796,"text":"因為現在我們譬如開始一直搞哪一個流程黃謀信來不然也簡單要問一個生日幾號生日當時搞一個譬如說檢察官也是一樣監事人員也是一樣你們把它定下來以後憑經驗是好事但有時候現場凌亂甚至於在緊急狀況的時候每一個人所謂的重不重要判斷會不一樣你都覺得SOP都定義很高一樣來第一人"},{"start":547.256,"end":547.496,"text":"發言委員：莊瑞雄"},{"start":577.796,"end":584.018,"text":"要站在人家樓上站著不然就開始再嚥嚥嚥嚥那不是要在鈴鼓塔都要放進去嗎?在鈴鼓塔呢?處長那要開錢是不是?一般民眾你說叫他去就把骨頭紅都放進去不可能嘛不然你也要叫一個法師來傳一個聖禮當然那更怪是自己的親人那個不是什麼壞事只是也沒有必要在多年後增加這樣的一個困擾嘛"},{"start":604.904,"end":633.011,"text":"花錢又困擾最主要是民眾也傷心那我們在行政部門的部分我們這種事情沒有辦法完全預測不會發生什麼事要發生不知道總是整個流程把它確定下來這個讓民眾會覺得說政府對我來講的話比較溫暖政府對我來講的話他的行政部門在工作是很細緻的這個我要求改進好不好我們再去精進"},{"start":634.032,"end":634.174,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152504","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152504","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c02fb9dd2710c65e3a881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45e544a20d61f30db85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:44:03 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09:53:19","影片長度":"00:09:16","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":556,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:53:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:44:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時44分）好，謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長好。我們今天處理農村再生條例，比較關鍵的條文是在第七條的部分，其實過去政府有在條文上面編了1,500億，但是有一些委員希望能調高這個額度。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那我先問一下，過去雖然編了1,500億，但是從101年開始，分了4次，都有編列進來、都有補進來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到實際核編分別是276、287、420億，到今年2月也再補了432億進來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以到了2027年應該都沒有問題嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我想關鍵不是在這個額度多少，關鍵是在政府是不是有不斷撥補進來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有撥補進來的話，這些金額其實都夠用嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以從這樣看來，其實關鍵的問題不在於把1,500億往上調升多少，而是在政府要不斷持續撥補進來。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我跟委員說明，以目前農村再生剛好要因應極端天候的挑戰，所以我們更加積極，在農村復育的過程中，每一年平均大概在100億上下，以這樣的經費規模，未來基金如果餘額不足的時候，我們會循行政程序，將年度的四年期計畫報院請增，核定的時候就會循預算程序來編列，這樣也可以達到我們同樣去執行這些相關的建設，但我們的經費是由政府提出來以後送立法院審議的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這4次以來，每次提出時行政院都有給予支持嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以其實並不會產生問題，因為每年都有100億左右的金額，反正快要不夠用的時候，政府會持續再撥補進來。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。農村再生計畫的成果大家都看得到，所以我相信這樣一個經費未來提出的時候應該會得到支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以院裡面、部裡面也是希望能夠維持1,500億這樣的規模就可以了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實並不會影響到農村再生基金的問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我想請教的是，最後如果要強行通過這樣一個修正案的話，因為原先1,500億的部分其實是在民國99年通過訂定的，這也是行政院提出來的版本，現在如果立法院沒有得到行政院的支持，直接予以修改的話，當然會有侵犯行政權的問題，我認為其實不需要這麼做，這樣反而會造成另外一些沒必要的困擾，因為金額其實並不會受影響，剛剛已經講到了，金額都一定會有，這樣反倒會造成行政機關認為不需要提升，但是立法機關卻硬把它給拉高。而且剛剛也有提到，財政紀律法第七條規定，立法機關修正法案的時候，不得增訂固定經費額度，這樣其實也違反財政紀律法的相關規定。部長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，針對委員所提的版本，我剛才說過了，農村再生的確是需要經費去支持的，經費可以透過行政體系報行政院去爭取，委員如果直接在條文裡面明定的時候，我們也提出了依現行財政紀律法，是不可以這樣做的。委員的版本我們絕對尊重，我們只是說明現在我們所瞭解的，就是如果這樣編列的話，會違反財政紀律法的相關規定，行政單位沒有辦法逾越財政紀律法去給予支持或給予任何的comment。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那我問一下部長，新的國會形成以後，最近很多案子幾乎都不太尊重行政院或行政機關的看法就強行通過，甚至把一些預算的部分大幅拉高，對整個財政上的問題不做考慮，這不僅違反財政紀律法，甚至是有違憲疑慮的。如果立法院強行通過這樣的法案的話，農業部這邊會怎麼處理？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果立法院通過這樣的版本，我想行政院應該會有一個比較明確的對策，因為基本上立法院通過這個法案是違背相關的規定嘛，違背相關規定的話，應該會有一些特別的處置方式來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我希望你們還是要積極做說明，在立法院和大家妥善地溝通，也希望能尊重行政院和整個體制，因為經費都一定夠用，關鍵是在政府的撥補，而不在那個額度的提升。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：額度提得再高，政府不撥補其實還是不夠的啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我覺得關鍵還是在撥補，我們希望待會兒討論的時候能夠做一個處理。","現在我請教一下公糧收購價格的問題，這件事情大家也相當關心，最近也聽到很多聲音說要調漲公糧收購價格，部長怎麼看？"],["陳代理部長駿季：關於公糧收購的部分，其實包括農業部和委員都希望支持我們農民的收入，這是非常重要的。就稻米的產業來講，提高公糧收購價格只是維護稻農所得的其中一個方法，是手段之一，但是以我們的評估，它不是一個最好的方法，因為以過往的經驗，我們在100年曾經提高了3塊跟2塊，當年度的確讓農民的收益提高了，可是這個同時也讓更多人種水稻，那水稻面積一增加、產量一增加，整個市面上的糧價就往下降，以長期來看，三、五年以後，農民的收入不見得會維持在那樣子。第二個部分是公糧只占我們所有稻米裡面的百分之三十，事實上百分之七十是由民間的自營糧來收購了，所以怎麼樣去提高民間自營糧的產地價格，那才是我們應該要去注意的，所以農業部目前已經陸陸續續在規劃一個比較完整的政策，想辦法去支撐這些自營糧的價格，這樣子才能夠讓我們的稻農真正能夠確保他的收入。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望所有的政策目的，是希望給農民長遠的、好的收益跟效益，但是這個也要審慎，如果短期性的因素投入了，短期看來好，但長遠不見得好，甚至於現在我們的整個糧食，甚至稻米的一些狀況，整體如果沒有把國家資源做一個好的配置的話，我希望這一塊部長能不能在一個禮拜內的時間，把這樣的完整方案提出來？我覺得這個需要對社會說明，也需要跟立法院做說明，我們希望大家長遠來思考怎麼樣能達到最大的效益，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們把相關的案子規劃出來以後，一定會跟委員們溝通，同時我們也會跟行政院報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個禮拜內把它提出來好不好？我認為你們應該已經有想法了，但是把那個完整性整個抓出來，一個禮拜好不好？可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，瞭解，可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：然後跟整個社會跟立法院做一個詳細的溝通。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後請教一下，剛剛其實委員也有提到，就是猴害的問題，上次我也稍微簡短的提到，這個在南部，特別是高雄其實是嚴重的，前陣子我講到了，甚至包括芒果，甚至水蜜桃等等，最近水蜜桃的季節來了，變成整個很受到影響。我知道現在農業部也有一些相關方案跟農業局的推動，看來目前好像採用的是電網的方式，有達到比較好的嚇阻效果嗎？後面會持續加強推動嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會持續推動，我現在的想法就是說，因為用電圍網是以被動式的為主，成本也相對比較高，我們是不是可以另外再搭配我們的農業保險，去做成一個比較好的積極性的……萬一受損的時候，有相關的補償，但是這個東西可能還要做精算，因為保險可能牽涉到風險的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我知道，不過保險已經是受害之後的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對、對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得前面還是要思考一下怎麼樣做……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們還是會積極地去推動。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，特別是一些比較高經濟價值的作物的部分，我認為還是要……"],["陳代理部長駿季：還有高風險區的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，你適度有一些的話，其實可以減損他們的一些損害。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：要不然你永遠都只在後面的保險，或者是在做補償的部分，其實那個效益當然都是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一樣好不好？一個禮拜的時間，給我們一個完整的方案，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：然後來看怎麼對這些猴害的部分有一個好的處理。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 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«農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":451.994,"end":452.334,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":474.139,"end":493.268,"text":"很多的前陣子我講到了甚至包括芒果甚至水蜜桃等等所以水蜜桃的季節來了那變成整個很受到影響那我知道現在農業部也有一些相關方案跟農業局的推動那看來目前好像採用的是用整個電網的一個方式達到比較好的嚇阻效果這個後面會持續來加強推動嗎?"},{"start":496.309,"end":520.652,"text":"我們會持續推動,那我現在想法就是說因為用微電網是被動式的圍堵,那相對被動式圍堵成本也相對比較高。那我們是不是可以另外再搭配我們的農業保險去做成一個比較好的一個積極性的一個萬一受損的時候有相關的一個補償。但是這個東西可能還要做一個精算,因為保險的部分可能牽涉到風險的部分。"},{"start":521.513,"end":521.713,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":543.809,"end":545.554,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具 «農村再生條例第七條條文"}]}},{"id":"152503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0ffcaa020223466caad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45b2462f6caa9091c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:42:02 - 09:52:29","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":627,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:52:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:42:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時42分）謝謝主席，有請吳部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早安。我們現在回歸到今天的主題、WHA，難得我們的主席擬定了這麼好的題目讓大家來做質詢，5月27號WHA即將在日內瓦舉行，到目前為止我們都還沒有收到邀約，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：還沒。"],["羅委員美玲：都還沒有嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["羅委員美玲：我從外交部跟衛福部的報告可以看得出來，其實我們做了很多很多的努力，從各個管道希望能夠爭取支持，這幾年我們確確實實也獲得很多國際友人的支持，希望臺灣能夠重返WHA，可是很遺憾的是，WHO的秘書處一直基於中國的壓力，違背了自身的宗旨跟願景，把臺灣排拒在WHA之外，我在想今年可能也不例外。"],["吳部長釗燮：難度很高。"],["羅委員美玲：難度非常的高。不管怎麼樣，我們還是會在5月27號的時候啟程前往日內瓦，透過過去的模式；以舉辦周邊活動或雙邊會談的方式來進行。其實中國對我國的打壓長年以來都是如此，從20年前的2003年，臺灣面臨嚴峻的SARS到COVID-19的大浩劫，中國從來都沒有放棄對臺灣的打壓，我放這影片是在20年前，那時候臺灣的記者在詢問中國駐日內瓦的大使沙祖康，有關臺灣要加入WHA這個問題的時候，他說：「誰理你們啊？」那張嘴臉。經過了20年，中國對臺灣還是這個態度，而且我們覺得會更加嚴峻。我是覺得，不管我們做了多大的努力想要重返WHA，可是這條路非常非常的辛苦、艱辛，尤其是中國這10年來推動了一連串的政策，譬如一帶一路，還有2021年推行的全球發展倡議、2022年全球安全倡議等等，其實都在挑戰美國主導的國際秩序，尤其是一帶一路，針對一些發展中的國家像中亞或非洲，協助進行基礎建設，讓這些國家倒向中國，所以無論我們再怎麼努力，可是舉手表決的時候，支持我國的這些國家還是沒有辦法讓臺灣重返WHA。面對如此嚴峻的國際情勢，我們以後要如何去因應呢？請問部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，對我們參加世界衛生大會的關心，的確參加世界衛生大會對我們來講是一個很艱辛的歷程，但是就過去這幾年我們的經驗來看，我們必須要去聚沙成塔，一次一次的去累積，比如有一些國家開始在支持我們，他們支持的方式是用聯合進洽的方式，或者是說直接、間接為我們發言的方式，或者是說用聯合支持信函的方式，我們回頭過去看這幾年是不斷的在增加當中。在國際輿論的氛圍方面，我們也看到越來越多國家的國會議員，透過不同的方式來聲援我們，像今年美國支持我們的力道是更加強勁，尤其是他們針對2758號決議案做了一個非常重要的聲明。所以我覺得長此以往繼續去努力爭取這些相關的友誼，對於未來我們的參加是會有幫助的。委員剛剛提到一個重點，就是在聯合國或相關的機構方面，the Global South，也就是全球南方整個很大的集團，由於中國的影響力非常大，所以最終如果要走到投票的話，我相信連美國這種好朋友都覺得這應該不是一條我們應該去走的路。現在我們就是必須要去逐漸累積我們的實力，吸引更多其他的好朋友來支持我們。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝，我知道外交部在國際情勢如此嚴峻的情況之下，真的是非常非常的辛苦，其實我們都看在眼裡，無論未來的路很艱困、很艱辛，可是我在想以臺灣在國際上這幾年的表現，我想會贏得很多國家的肯定，我們也希望真的有重返WHA的這一天。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員美玲：再來還有一點就是價值觀外交，價值觀外交一直都是歐洲一個很重要的外交政策，價值觀外交其實強調的就是對自由、民主、人權、法治等基本權利的尊重，像歐洲聯盟基本條約、里斯本條約及歐洲聯盟基本權利憲章都有提到這些核心價值，我在想臺灣跟很多友臺國家進行務實外交、價值觀外交也是奠定於這個基礎之上，可是在近期歐盟商會的評論裡面，針對臺灣也許會通過兩個提案非常的有意見跟疑慮，就是藐視國會罪和國會聽證調查權，所以我想請問部長，這會不會影響到外資甚至友邦對我們產生疑慮，甚至影響到邦交國，使我們在外交上面臨一些風險、一些挫折，會不會有這樣的狀況？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個也是我們擔心的，如果說歐盟商會已經有做這方面的表達，的確是我們必須要去關心的，因為像國會的聽證調查權，以及藐視國會罪這種東西，如果真的要落實到這麼寬廣的話，那會有點像是在中國用反間諜法的方式，影響其他國家在中國正常的商業行為，這個是我們非常擔心的。我們臺灣作為一個自由、民主、開放的國家，以及非常自由開放的一個市場，會因為這種東西而受到其他國家的質疑，我們臺灣的立國根本除了我們是一個民主國家之外，我們也是一個非常蓬勃的自由經濟體制，因為這樣，會讓我們臺灣的根本受到衝擊，這個事情我們必須要去重新考慮。"],["羅委員美玲：對，這個部分是不是我們要有更多對外的解釋？因為像藐視國會罪跟國會聽證調查權如果放在價值觀外交，它是違背一些法治、人權核心價值的，所以這部分，臺灣一定要審慎以對。所以我自己本身也很擔心藐視國會罪跟國會聽證調查權通過的話，對臺灣會是一個很大、很大的傷害。另外就是外交機密的洩漏，是不是也會造成各國對我國的不信任，引發外交的危機？"],["吳部長釗燮：會。"],["羅委員美玲：我們最近一連串這些事情，是不是讓國外友好臺灣的這些國家有一些對臺灣不好的印象，甚至影響到臺灣的形象？"],["吳部長釗燮：會，第一個就是我們臺灣是一個民主國家，我們臺灣的民主憲政體制是三權分立，如果說被其他民主國家在臺代表處或者商界人士看到我們臺灣本來運作得很好的三權分立民主體制開始在模糊化，其中有一個機構……"],["羅委員美玲：被破壞了，不是被模糊化了。"],["吳部長釗燮：那對我們臺灣在國際社會上作為一個民主閃亮燈塔的名號是有斲喪的。另外就是我們跟其他國家進行的協商，我們外交部所處理的，都不適合攤在外面，否則等於是引誘中國來對我們做這些攻擊，所以如果其他的國家看到我們必須守密的這些項目不斷的攤開來的話，那對於我們臺灣在國際社會上的被信賴度也會有所影響，也會傷害到我們臺灣在國際社會上面的聲譽。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝部長，目前國際對我們臺灣的認同，一切其實得來都非常的不容易，難得臺灣這幾年，尤其在疫情當中，讓全世界看到臺灣，也看到臺灣的民主發展、人權尊重等等，我們也不希望因為現在要推藐視國會罪或國會聽政調查權，或者是最近常常爭議的外交機密洩漏等等，影響到世界對臺灣的看法。以上，謝謝，外交部辛苦了。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.09409375,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.801593750000002,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.134718750000001,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.337218750000002,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.21409375,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.08096875,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":71.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.13971875,"end":34.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.36159375,"end":72.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.66096875000001,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.21221875,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.73721875,"end":302.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.84846875,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.96659375,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.31034375,"end":372.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.38221875000005,"end":399.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.28909375,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.64721875000004,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.02596875,"end":412.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.02159375,"end":413.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.26596875,"end":472.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.42534375,"end":526.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.39284375000005,"end":492.74721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.6997187500001,"end":588.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.45159375,"end":550.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.4409687500001,"end":626.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.35096875,"end":626.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.9540937500001,"end":627.74721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.45,"end":1.792,"text":"謝謝主席 有請吳部長請吳部長委員好"},{"start":10.204,"end":31.456,"text":"部長早安,我們現在回歸到今天的主題,WHA難得我們的主席有擬定了這麼好的這個題目讓大家來做質詢。5月27號呢,WHA即將在這個日內瓦舉行,到目前為止我們都還沒有收到邀約對不對?"},{"start":32.637,"end":32.677,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":54.068,"end":54.268,"text":"難度很高,是。"},{"start":72.719,"end":74.48,"text":"對,不管怎樣我們還是會在這個5月27號的時候會啟程到這個WHA去,然後呢透過像過去的這個模式舉辦周邊活動或是雙邊會談的方式來做這個進行。"},{"start":91.292,"end":96.976,"text":"其實中國對我國的打壓長年以來都是如此從20年前的2003年台灣面臨嚴峻的SUS到這個COVID-19的這個大浩劫其實中國從來都沒有放棄對台灣的這個打壓我放這影片是在20年前那時候台灣的記者在詢問這個中國的"},{"start":119.968,"end":120.928,"text":"中國對台灣還是如此的態度"},{"start":142.513,"end":163.884,"text":"我是覺得說我們不管做了多大的努力想要重返WHA可是這條路是非常非常的這個辛苦跟艱辛的那尤其是中國中國這十年來推動了一連串的這個政策比如說一帶一路還有2021年他所推行的全球發展創意還有2022年全球安全創意等等的"},{"start":167.126,"end":169.529,"text":"其實他都在挑戰這個美國主導的這個國際的這個秩序尤其是一帶一路一帶一路他針對一些發展中的國家像這個中亞或是非洲進行一個基礎建設讓這些國家其實都是導向中國所以我們再怎麼努力可是舉手的時候"},{"start":187.788,"end":187.808,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":206.082,"end":221.424,"text":"非常謝謝委員對我們參加世界衛生大會的關心的確參加世界衛生大會對我們來講是一個很艱辛的歷程但是就過去這幾年我們的經驗來看就是說我們必須要去聚沙成塔"},{"start":221.684,"end":221.924,"text":"﹚羅美玲議員"},{"start":242.182,"end":262.882,"text":"那在國際的這個輿論的氛圍方面我們也看到越來越多國家的這個國會議員也透過不同的方式來聲援我們那也可以看到像今年美國他們支持我們的這個力道是更加的這個強勁尤其是他們針對2758號決議案來做了一個非常重要的聲明所以我覺得如果說我們長此以往"},{"start":264.703,"end":280.612,"text":"繼續去努力爭取這些相關的友誼對於未來我們的參加是會有幫助的那委員剛剛提到一個重點就是說在聯合國或者是說相關的這個機構方面Global South就是說全球南方這整個很大的這個集團"},{"start":281.933,"end":302.324,"text":"由於中國的這個影響力是非常大的所以最終如果說要走到這個投票的話我相信連美國這種好朋友他們覺得說這個應該不是一條我們應該去走的路那現在就是我們必須要去逐漸累積我們的這個實力去吸引更多其他的這些好朋友來支持我們"},{"start":304.294,"end":330.668,"text":"謝謝,我知道外交部在這國際情勢如此嚴峻之下真的是非常非常的辛苦其實我們都看在這個眼裡我說未來我的路很艱困很艱辛可是我在想說以台灣在國際上這幾年的這個表現我想會贏得很多國家的這個肯定那我們也希望就是說真的有重返WHA的這一天啦謝謝委員"},{"start":331.869,"end":334.752,"text":"價值觀外交一直都是歐洲很重要的一個外交政策。價值觀外交強調的是對自由、民主、人權、法治等基本權利的尊重。"},{"start":351.869,"end":372.783,"text":"歐洲聯盟基本條約或李斯本條約跟歐洲聯盟基本權利憲章裏面都有提到這些核心價值我在想這些都是台灣跟很多有台的國家我們進行務實外交也是基於這些價值觀外交我們是奠定於這個基礎之上可是在近期的歐盟商會的評論裏面針對於台灣"},{"start":378.847,"end":378.887,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":409.308,"end":424.498,"text":"我們會面臨一些風險,一些挫折,會不會有這樣的狀況?這個也是我們擔心的,如果說看到歐盟商會,他們已經有做這方面的表達,像這種表達的確是我們必須要去關心的,因為像這種國會的聽證調查權以及藐視國會權,"},{"start":429.362,"end":456.722,"text":"國會罪的這種東西如果說真的是要去落實落實到這麼寬廣的話那會有點像是在中國他們用這種反間諜法的這種方式去影響到其他的國家在中國的這個正常的這個商業行為那這個是我們非常擔心的那我們台灣作為一個自由民主開放的這個國家以及作為非常自由開放的一個市場會因為這種東西會受到其他國家的質疑"},{"start":457.363,"end":472.545,"text":"我們台灣的立國根本除了我們是一個民主國家之外我們台灣也是一個非常蓬勃的自由經濟體制那如果是因為這樣子的話會讓我們台灣的這個根本受到一個衝擊那這個事情我們必須要去重新考慮"},{"start":473.979,"end":490.146,"text":"對 這個部分的話是不是我們要有更多的這個對外的一個解釋因為像藐視國會罪跟國會聽證調查權如果是放在這個價值觀外交裡頭它是對於一些法治人權方面這是違背這個價值觀的這個核心價值"},{"start":493.988,"end":517.094,"text":"所以這部分的話臺灣一定要審慎於對所以我是覺得說我自己本身也很擔心苗式國會罪跟國會聽證權如果通過的話對臺灣是一個很大很大的一個傷害那另外還有就是外交機密的洩漏是不是也會造成各國對我國的不信任引發外交的危機是不是也是這樣子我們最近一連串這些事情是不是讓這個國外有"},{"start":519.315,"end":547.726,"text":"有好台灣的這些國外有一些對台灣不好的一些印象甚至是影響到台灣的形象會第一個就是我們台灣是一個民主國家我們台灣的這個民主憲政的體制是三權分立那如果說被其他的這個民主國家在台的這個代表處或者是說像商界的這些人士看到我們台灣的這個三權分立本來運作的很好的這個民主體制開始在模糊化其中有一個"},{"start":548.246,"end":548.766,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":567.958,"end":587.91,"text":"等於是引誘中國來對我們來做這些攻擊那所以如果其他的國家看到我們因為這種必須要去守密的這些項目不斷地攤開來的話那這個對於我們台灣在國際社會上面的這個被信賴度這個也會有所影響也會傷害到我們台灣在國際社會上面的這種聲譽"},{"start":591.502,"end":612.702,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長我想說這些我們的目前台灣不管是在國際對我國的這個認同來講這一切其實得來都是非常的不容易難得台灣這幾年尤其在疫情當中讓全世界看到台灣那也看到台灣的民主的這個發展人權的這個尊重等等我們也不希望說因為"},{"start":613.643,"end":613.743,"text":"多謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152502","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152502","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0da27e0ad9fc026ad96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e452ae69a5bbf2089335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:30:10 - 09:44:22","影片長度":"00:14:12","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-22"},"duration":852,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:44:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:30:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":117,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院秘書長以及法務部常務次長黃次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好，次長好。首先請教次長，我相信法務部對於整個赦免制度在比較法上面有相當程度的瞭解，因為畢竟法務部也派檢察官去國外研究赦免制度，回來以後洋洋灑灑地寫了一個比較大的報告。在赦免制度這件事情上，我真的比較關切的是，我們的總統依照憲法的規定是依法行使大赦、特赦的權力，因此就有關於赦免的制度是有法律保留原則的適用，請教次長，我的理解有沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，憲法對總統的職權是這樣規定。"],["黃委員國昌：因此當我們在看各國赦免制度的時候，他們希望照這個制度依法來行使的時候能夠有一個客觀的標準，那這個客觀的標準包括說，總統在做這個決定以前是依照什麼樣的標準、什麼樣的類型，能夠具有可問責性跟透明性。這個是法務部的檢察官去國外研究後回來寫的研究報告，我看了以後非常的佩服，我也認同這樣子的制度建議方向。但是我們現在就具體的問題來講，法務部針對有關於赦免制度，因為目前依赦免法第六條的規定是可以交由法務部來研議，法務部針對整個赦免制度在什麼情況之下適合來行使大赦或特赦，請教次長，有沒有參酌你們的檢察官去國外研究回來的制度來建立一些客觀的基準以及程序？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，的確法務部就赦免的相關規定有參酌美國、德國、日本相關的立法例，有做一些研究，但是法務部本身……"],["黃委員國昌：這些研究有沒有公開？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：你們是不是可以在會後把你們參酌各國立法例所做的研究送交司法及法制委員會？"],["黃次長謀信：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個問題，在媒體上面傳得繪聲繪影，說蔡英文總統考慮要特赦陳水扁前總統，我基本上的立場是，對於這一種報派的、不曉得透過什麼莫名其妙的管道放消息給媒體、拔草測風向的處理方式，我是期期以為不然，這是一個嚴肅的憲政問題，這也是一個重要的制度，而這個制度的適用，我們應該具有一定客觀的基準。但是我現在要提一個比較具體的問題，到目前為止，法務部有沒有接到任何指示說要針對這件事情依照赦免法第六條的規定來進行研議？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為赦免法第六條是規定總統得令或轉令……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我瞭解，所以現在在現實上有沒有研議這件事？"],["黃次長謀信：到目前為止沒有收到任何正式……"],["黃委員國昌：到此時此刻、我們在討論的時候，總統都沒有要法務部研議這件事情，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：本部到目前為止沒有收到任何正式轉令要求研議。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。那第二個部分就是今天在司法院的報告提出有關於刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條就審能力的問題，依照現行刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條就審能力的規定，請教一下秘書長，目前我們在訴訟繫屬當中的刑事案件因為這樣而停止審判的案件有幾件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是那個陳前總統的。"],["黃委員國昌：全國只有一件嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是陳前總統的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我瞭解，我是說全國的刑事訴訟適用刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條的規定停止審判的，目前在繫屬當中的刑事訴訟適用這一條規定的有幾件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：全體被告啦！"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們刑事廳目前就這一部分沒有統計。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，是不是拜託秘書長會後請刑事廳的同仁把我們目前刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條到底適用的有幾件，可以提交給司法及法制委員會，我們作為接下來制度研議的參考嘛！因為我覺得我們在討論制度的時候就要認真的討論清楚，對於法律制度，我們希望它具有什麼？就是客觀的普遍適用性、可預測性、可問責性、透明性，兩位都是法律人，我想我講的這些原則，兩位應該都贊同吧！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請秘書長先回座。那我接下來請教一下次長，我看到一個案子，我感到很憤怒，就是我們立法院的前秘書長貪污了3,100萬，兩個貪污罪被判刑，定應執行刑13年8個月，於2019年7月19號入監服刑，結果在5月14號就已經假釋出獄了，判決定應執行刑13年8個月，結果我去算，到他假釋出獄為止，實際上只關4年10個月。法務部，你們假釋的權力是怎麼行使的？我在喔！從2016年到2020年我在立法院的時候，我就對於黑箱的假釋非常的痛恨，經過了檢警的犯罪偵查，三級三審判決確定了以後，有超過一半以上的刑期要不要執行是掌握在法務部的手上，那個時候針對很多莫名其妙的假釋案件，我提出了質詢，是不是背後有什麼政治力操作，導致了權貴司法的出現？結果今天又再看到這樣的案子，我今天本來要請教蔡清祥部長，因為幾年前就是他在備詢臺上面跟我承諾，假釋制度法務部一定會澈底的改革，澈底改革完出現這樣的結果，次長，你滿不滿意？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，假釋有一定的外部法規規定，跟內部的一個流程程序，本部相關的假釋審議過程，他一定要依法來行政、依法來處理。至於個案上，每一個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：我先講啦！假釋的權力現在完全掌握在行政部門手上，我相信次長很清楚啦！包括很多刑法重量級的學者對這個事情都提出批判，這麼重要的權力全部交給行政機關，它反映出來的是什麼？是一個刑事司法的政策。我現在就要請教一下法務部，你們在行使假釋權力的時候，你們刑事司法的政策到底是什麼？貪污犯定應執行刑13年8個月，你們關了4年10個月就放出來，跟大家解釋一下嘛！這個權力是怎麼行使的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，假釋制度要不要存在，這是刑事政策上一個很大的問題，至於假釋的控管，那不完全是……在行政上是行政機關的決定沒有錯，但是我們假釋本身有一個假釋委員會，由外部委員來做一個假釋的決定，倒不是完全法務部可以去掌握假釋或不假釋。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實講，次長，你用這種空洞的言語，我不要說你要唬弄人，真的實際上面知道狀況的就是什麼，要不要假釋這件事情，有很大的權力掌握在法務部的手上，因為今天您是文官，不是政務官，你也沒有辦法為政策負責，但我只希望利用這次的質詢清楚地表達一個看法，貪污犯貪了3,100萬，定執行刑13年8個月，結果執行完畢以後，最後只關4年10個月，對於這種制度運作的結果，無法接受、無法接受！我相信不是只有我無法接受，很多人民看在眼裡，也沒有辦法接受。我希望法務部針對這件事情，不要再顢頇下去了、不要再顢頇下去了，要痛定思痛、好好地思考怎麼樣避免這種離譜的狀況繼續出現。","我接下來要請教88調查報告，我那一天跟吳宗憲召委去高檢署，我們去考察的時候，我終於有機會等到請教高檢署。我說高檢署當初所做的行政調查報告內容不實，這件事情我問了一年多，包括蔡清祥部長在這個備詢臺上公開承諾過高檢署要回應，結果我到那一天、禮拜一去考察以前，我沒有等到高檢署的回應，我終於有機會去考察的時候，請教高檢署的檢察長還有負責處理的主任檢察官，我說的沒有錯、我說的沒有錯，當初高檢署說什麼？說他們有澈底查明，問題是什麼？現實上面的狀況，現場就有人在招待，高檢署當初的調查報告寫的是什麼？現場沒有任何人、沒有任何人提供服務，我那時候看到高檢署這個調查報告，我無法相信，我無法相信檢察官跟高階警官到那個招待所是自己開燈、自己開冷氣、自己倒水、自己服務自己。我當初看了高檢署的調查報告就覺得有問題，但我需要證據，我終於找到證據，去訪問那個招待所的管家的時候，管家清楚地講，有招待啊！我們現場有3個人在那邊負責服務，結果高檢署的內容卻不是這樣寫，我等到禮拜一，我去了高檢署，結果高檢署說，當初有很多資訊他們不知道，接受訪談的檢警也沒有說實話，這是哪門子澈底查明？你們後來去跟警政署調資料，證明我所言不虛，我要請教的是，這是警政署在隱匿還是高檢署在放水？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當天那個調查報告的檢察長跟主任檢察官也跟委員說明了，事實上，就在場業者3人的部分，的確當時所掌握的證據沒有掌握到這3人，所以調查報告沒有寫……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，對，當時掌握到的證據沒有這3個人，但相關的證據在警政署手上對不對？是嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：因為這個案它是不是在……"],["黃委員國昌：拜託！你們那一天就直接回復我，你們後來還發新聞稿，後來發新聞稿說什麼？後來發新聞稿說你們不是去警政署調了那一個簽到簿，發現進出的人就有現場的業者，我有沒有說錯？"],["黃次長謀信：對，後來發新聞稿是這樣，但是跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就在問，警政署當初掌握這個資訊，你們高檢署發的行政調查報告，請次長回去看，本署──高檢署是結合新北地檢署、警政署聯合進行行政調查，行政調查完了以後出了這一份澈底查明的報告，事後就不是這樣嘛！所以我剛才請教你的事情是，當初是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水？這就是我的問題。"],["黃次長謀信：我知道……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們這個補充的行政調查，因為我要尊重後面委員的時間，你們補充更正的行政調查報告什麼時候會提出來？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在他那天……"],["黃委員國昌：那天他說要簽部長嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：他自己有權可以發布啦！"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要發布？"],["黃次長謀信：我不能代他回答，當天他是有跟委員報告大概多久的時間……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，他那天跟我說要簽部長啊！"],["黃次長謀信：要不然……"],["黃委員國昌：還是部長現在人也不在了，然後他明天就總辭了，新的部長也不知道要看多久。"],["黃次長謀信：這部分的話，高檢署會儘速來公布。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速把補充報告講清楚，當初是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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呢當我們在看各國赦免制度的時候他們希望這一個制度依法來行使的時候能夠有一個客觀的標準那這個客觀的標準包括了說總統在做這個決定以前針對什麼樣的標準"},{"start":92.152,"end":112.566,"text":"什麼樣子的類型能夠有一個具有可問責性跟透明性這個是法務部的檢察官去國外研究回來的研究報告我看了以後非常的佩服我也認同這樣子的制度建議方向但我們現在就具體的問題來講"},{"start":114.267,"end":120.68,"text":"法務部針對有關於赦免制度因為目前赦免法第6條的規定是可以交由法務部來研議"},{"start":125.953,"end":143.741,"text":"那法務部針對整個赦免制度在什麼情況之下適合來行使這個大赦或特赦參佐你們的檢察官去國外研究回來的制度有沒有建立一些客觀的基準以及程序請教次長"},{"start":144.993,"end":146.455,"text":"這些研究有沒有公開?沒有"},{"start":160.948,"end":187.391,"text":"好 那個是不是會後請你們把你們參酌各國的立法力所做的研究可以送交司法法制委員會 可以嗎好 沒問題好 第二個問題是說針對在媒體上面傳的會聲會語說蔡英文總統考慮要特赦陳水扁前總統我基本上的立場是對於這一種道派的"},{"start":189.014,"end":208.912,"text":"不曉得透過什麼莫名其妙的管道放消息給媒體拔草側風向這種處理方式我是岐岐以為不然這是一個嚴肅的憲政問題這也是一個重要的制度而這個制度的適用我們應該具有一定客觀的基準"},{"start":209.753,"end":227.052,"text":"好那但我現在比較具體的問題是說到目前為止法務部有沒有接到任何的指示要針對這件事情依照社民法第6條的規定來進行研議顧問報告因為社民法第6條規定他是總統得事或"},{"start":227.412,"end":229.973,"text":"那第二個部分就有關於今天在司法院的報告提出了有關於刑事訴訟法第294條救省能力的問題"},{"start":255.356,"end":273.356,"text":"那依照目前刑事訴訟法294條救審能力的規定請教一下秘書長目前我們在訴訟係數當中的刑事案件因為這樣停職審判的案件有幾件就是是那個陳前總統的全國只有一件嗎"},{"start":274.42,"end":290.575,"text":"就是陳前總統的對啊 我了解 我說全國的刑事訴訟是用刑事訴訟法294條的規定停止審判的目前的刑事訴訟 寄屬當中的刑事訴訟是用這條規定的 有幾件前提被告啦對對對對"},{"start":293.557,"end":315.173,"text":"我們刑事廳目前就這一步沒有同仁好沒有關係會後事事拜託秘書長請刑事廳的同仁把我們目前刑事訴訟法294條到底適用的有幾件可以提交給司法法制委員會我們作為接下來制度研議的參考嘛因為我覺得我們在討論制度的時候就要認真的討論清楚"},{"start":317.014,"end":341.701,"text":"法律制度我們希望它具有什麼客觀的普遍適用性可預測性可問責性透明性兩位都是法律人我想我講的這些原則兩位應該都贊同吧是好請秘書長先回座那我接下來請教一下齁次長我看到一個案子啊我很憤怒我們的前立法院的秘書長貪污了3100萬"},{"start":346.192,"end":371.039,"text":"兩個貪污罪被判刑．定執行刑13年8個月．13年8個月2019年7月19號入監服刑．結果．在5月14號的時候他已經假釋出獄了．判了應定執行刑13年8個月．結果我算．到他假釋出獄為止．實際上只關4年10個月"},{"start":374.198,"end":402.065,"text":"法務部你們假釋的權利是怎麼行使的我在2016到2020年我那時候在立法院的時候我就對於黑箱的假釋非常的痛恨經過了檢警的犯罪偵查三期三審判決確定了以後有超過一半以上的刑期要不要執行掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":403.069,"end":428.632,"text":"那個時候針對很多莫名其妙的假釋案件我提出了質詢是不是背後有什麼政治力操作導致了權貴司法的出現結果今天又再看到這樣的案子我今天本來請教蔡京祥部長因為幾年前就是他在備詢台上面跟我承諾"},{"start":429.864,"end":453.134,"text":"假釋制度．法務部一定會徹底的改革徹底改革完．出現這樣的結果 次長你滿不滿意共委員報告他假釋他有一定的外部法規規定跟內部的一個流程的程序本部相關的假釋修正這個水利的過程他一定要依法來行政依法來處理至於個案上每個個案都我先講"},{"start":455.578,"end":479.419,"text":"假釋的權利現在完全掌握在行政部門手上我相信次長很清楚啦包括很多刑法重量級的學者對這個事情都提出批判嘛這麼重要的權利全部交給行政機關他反映出來的是什麼是一個刑事司法的政策我現在就要請教一下法務部"},{"start":480.526,"end":496.736,"text":"你們在行使假釋權利的時候你行使司法的政策到底是什麼貪污犯應定執行刑13年8個月你們關了4年10個月就放出來跟大家解釋一下嘛這個權利是怎麼行使的"},{"start":498.062,"end":499.663,"text":"我老實講啦就是說次長你用這種空洞的言語可能"},{"start":526.501,"end":535.75,"text":"我不要說你要糊弄人啦真的實際上面知道狀況的就是什麼要不要假設這件事情有很大的權力掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":536.618,"end":561.891,"text":"那因為今天您是文官不是政務官你也沒有辦法為政策負責但我只希望利用這次的質詢清楚的表達一個看法貪污犯喔貪污犯貪了3100萬並執行刑13年8個月結果執行完畢以後最後只關4年10個月對於這種制度運作的結果無法接受"},{"start":562.895,"end":563.455,"text":"我接下來要請教八八調查報告"},{"start":587.54,"end":613.467,"text":"我那天跟吳宗憲召委去高檢署我們去考察的時候我終於有機會等到請教高檢署我說高檢署當初所做的行政調查報告內容不實這件事情我問了一年多包括蔡清祥部長在這個備詢台上面公開承諾過公開承諾過高檢署要回應"},{"start":616.728,"end":640.153,"text":"結果我到那一天禮拜一去考察以前我沒有等到高檢署的回應我終於有機會去考察的時候請教高檢署的檢察長還有負責處理的主任檢察官我說的沒有錯啊我錯了沒有錯當初高檢署說什麼說他們有徹底查明"},{"start":641.589,"end":669.771,"text":"問題是什麼現實上面的狀況現場就有人在招待高檢署當初的調查報告寫的是什麼現場沒有任何人沒有任何人提供服務我那時候看到高檢署這個調查報告我無法相信啊我無法相信檢察官跟高階警官到那個招待所是自己開燈自己開冷氣自己倒水自己服務自己"},{"start":670.683,"end":677.934,"text":"我當初開了高檢署的調查報告我覺得就有問題但我需要證據"},{"start":679.824,"end":706.99,"text":"我終於找到證據去訪問那個招待所的管家的時候那個管家清楚的講有招待啊我們現場三個人啊在那邊負責服務啊結果高檢署的內容卻不是這樣寫的我等到禮拜一等到禮拜一我去了我去了高檢署結果高檢署說啊當初有很多資訊他們不知道"},{"start":708.351,"end":724.549,"text":"接受訪談的檢警也沒有說實話這是哪門子徹底查明啊你們後來去跟警政署調資料 證明我所言不虛我要請教的是 這個是警政署在隱匿還是高檢署在放水"},{"start":725.566,"end":752.109,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上當天那個調查報告的檢察長跟主任檢察官也跟委員說明了事實上就這個在場我們業者三人的部分的確當時所掌握的證據沒有掌握到這三人所以調查報告沒有檢查先停一下對齁當時掌握到的證據沒有這三個人但相關的證據在警政署手上對不對是嘛因為這個個案他是不是在警政署你們拜託你們那天就直接回覆我你們後來還發"},{"start":754.099,"end":780.183,"text":"新聞稿後來發新聞稿說什麼後來發新聞稿說你們不是去警政署調了那個簽到簿發現進出的人就有現場的業者我有沒有說錯對 後來發新聞稿是這樣但是 更為對嘛 所以我就在問嘛警政署當初掌握這個資訊你們高檢署發的行政調查報告請次長回去看本署"},{"start":781.479,"end":798.974,"text":"高檢署喔是結合新北地檢署警政署我們聯合進行什麼行政調查行政調查完了以後如何出了這一份徹底查明的報告那事後就不是這樣嘛所以我剛請教你的事情是那當初"},{"start":800.015,"end":814.665,"text":"是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水這就是我的問題對我知道好你們這個補充的行政調查因為我要尊重後面委員的時間啦齁你們補充更正的行政調查報告什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":816.745,"end":830.313,"text":"呃 各位報告 現在 現在他 上 那天這個那天他說要簽部長嘛對 他是 他當 自己有權可以 可以發布啦那什麼時候要發布我不能代他回答當天他是有跟 跟委員報告大概多久的時間"},{"start":831.724,"end":850.193,"text":"沒有他那天跟我說要簽部長啊還是部長現在人也不在了然後他明天就總辭了新的部長也不知道要看多久那這部分的話高檢署他會盡速來公佈盡速好嗎盡速的補充報告講清楚當初是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152501","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152501","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f0c577e59f43900f881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e456367c9c5a82321895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:34:26 - 09:43:57","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":571,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:43:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:34:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":128,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時34分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，我們今天討論農村再生條例的修法，有幾位委員相對都提出了農村再生條例條文的修正草案。部長，我讓您看一下，到底農村再生做一些什麼，這個是我們高雄市農業局在今年2月份舉辦了2023高雄農村再生社區成果發表展，我們做了一本書，這是它的目錄。","關於農村再生計畫，我們的旗山糖廠社區曾經得到了金牌農村第一名，這個社區其實很好玩，就是說這一些人包括曾渝媗執行長，他們去創造了一個體驗物產直賣所，然後把盈餘的20%回饋到基層的老人照顧裡頭，所以糖廠社區在做老人長照、做社區營造，以及做農村再生，它算是佼佼者喔。","您再看一下六龜新發社區，這個是八八風災受災最嚴重的一個地方，但是我們現在把臺灣的特種山茶做研發，我們做成了六龜原生山茶，不只這個社區得到了農村領航獎，我們把六龜山茶送到國外去比賽，還獲得比利時ITI的國際評鑑風味最高評價三星獎，他們去年一共拿到了八顆星星，這個社區做的山茶。","旗山的圓富社區因為都是老人家，這個地方過去的老名字叫做隘堤，所以我們就把eighty，為這些80歲的老人開了一間咖啡廳，讓這些老婆婆們可以利用在地種植的咖啡來開設一間咖啡廳。","再來是我們美濃這兩年最有名的水圳市集，每年大概都有超過3萬人以上去逛這個市集。部長，我要讓您看的就是說，農村再生在這過去的十年來，我們在地方做了這麼多，我現在只單舉在本席的選區裡頭幾個特殊獲獎的。剛剛您提到，我們知道這個經費大概在四年之後就會沒有了，所以在政府的立場上面，會不會持續執行農村再生的計畫？農業部的版本有沒有？什麼時候會送到立法院來？部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝委員，也謝謝委員分享這樣一個農村再生的情況，至少在高雄地區的一個成果，事實上，農村再生它背後經費的資源，就是我們的農村再生基金，這樣的一個基金，的確讓我們有更多的資源能夠投入在農村的各項建設，包括基礎的環境建設，還有人文景觀的持續。更重要的就是，透過一些現在導入的這些綠色照護，也能夠讓農村這些居住在裡面的農村青年人也好，或者老年人也好，能夠健康的老化。種種的農村再生，一定會繼續做，以農業部的立場就是，對於經費的爭取，我們一定會循著我們的預算程序去向行政院做爭取，就像我們的公務預算、我們其他的基金預算也是一樣，我們會向行政院爭取，行政院如果同意我們相關方案的時候，方案未來也會是一個四年的方案，就像我們這一次111到113的方案，我們也是報院，報院提供以後，如果基金未來經費不足的時候，行政院就會另外籌措預算來提供這樣的一個經費。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我想您講得非常清楚喔，雖然本席的提案裡頭是有直接明列希望你們把基金預算增加到4,500億啦，但後來我翻查了一下，這個大概跟我們的財政紀律法其實是有一點相違背，所以這個部分本席不堅持，但是我要您承諾的部分就是說，農村再生計畫其實是會持續做，然後經費的部分，農業部也會持續的來跟行政院爭取，我想行政院對於這樣一個農村發展的計畫，應該是要給予全力的支持跟配合啦。這部分不只是在整個農村，甚至整個農宅、農村的景觀、地方的創生、青年返鄉的就業等等，其實都是要一併考量、規劃。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是部長，我還要再跟您提醒一下，過去做農村再生，通常都會做這種彩繪牆、塗鴉牆，整個農村的牆面就畫一大堆，但是畫來畫去都是畫日本的卡通人物，版權有沒有拿到不知道，3、5年後整個褪色又很醜，也不知道要不要補，或者是怎麼補。然後這個部分，比如說哆啦A夢或者是Dodoro龍貓，它跟這個社區的連結是什麼？沒有！就是把這一筆錢花掉、把它用掉！所以以後你們在訂定這些相關補助作業的時候，類似這樣的東西是不是應該要儘量避免？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，這一定的。我想委員所秀的這些應該是在早期、大概民國100年一開始啟動的時候，那個時候大家不是非常清楚，所以不管怎麼樣，彩繪就是……"],["邱委員議瑩：現在還是有耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，但是現在地方重要的裝置藝術和彩繪其實是要在特定的地區，而且要有特定的臺灣文化的導入。"],["邱委員議瑩：對，你們還是要跟地方去做連結啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會做連結，對。"],["邱委員議瑩：比如說像在內門，他們做了很多宋江陣的彩繪或是宋江陣的裝置藝術，這就有和地方的連結性。"],["陳代理部長駿季：要連結在一起才對。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是Doraemon和Dodoro……"],["陳代理部長駿季：那就很奇怪！"],["邱委員議瑩：這個跟地方的連結性是沒有的嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我接下來要跟您請教一個現在的農業狀態，高雄的玉荷包大概已經接近產期了，28日我會在立法院辦一個高雄市的市集。今年的玉荷包只剩下兩成多，大概也只有高雄有，中部以北因為不開花，也沒有玉荷包可以吃，所以呼籲大家要買玉荷包下手要快。但我現在不是在這裡賣玉荷包，我現在要講的是，玉荷包的敵人是荔枝椿象，而我們過去對荔枝椿象的防治方式大概有幾種，一個就是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：化學防治，一個是物理防治。"],["邱委員議瑩：化學防治是噴藥，生物防治就是平腹小蜂嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：還有一個就是去收集荔枝椿象的蟲卵片，可是最近好像把這個政策停掉了，可不可以說明一下？我們整個荔枝椿象的防治除了剛剛講的這幾個以外，還有沒有什麼新的方法？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當初有在跟地方政府合作收購這個荔枝椿象的卵片，它在葉片的下面，那個時間點剛好是在和荔枝椿象相關的平腹小蜂的物理性防治還沒有很健全，而且還沒有很推廣的時候，我們是搭配這些蟲卵的收購，現在平腹小蜂本身的防治技術已經非常成熟了，所以我們現在是共同使用化學防治跟我們的物理防治。現在最重要的是，不管是化學防治或是物理防治，一定要區域防治，如果個別農田去防治的話，那個效果不顯著，所以我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們會結合當地的縣市政府農業局、農會或者是產銷班……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，用大區域防治的方式共同來啟動。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，最後30秒我要講的是，剛剛講到那個荔枝椿象，你們有很多的防治方法，最近聽說你們林業署多了一個防治方法就是把它抓來，然後炸來吃。部長，這個有點本末倒置啊！我知道很多泰國籍的勞工喜歡吃荔枝椿象，其實在農村地區很多農民都會找泰籍勞工來幫忙抓荔枝椿象，但是吃荔枝椿象是他們的文化，不是我們的文化，我們要去講求病蟲害的防治，不應該去推廣所謂的叫大家來瞭解怎麼樣去炸荔枝椿象來吃，這個是嚴重違法的行為。即使做病蟲害防治，我們都不應該自己帶頭去觸法，所以部長，這個可能也要請你們多多督促。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我也覺得不恰當，所以我已經有跟他們講了，我們做病蟲害防治，不能把那些蟲變成一個料理，這樣會造成一些外界的困擾。"],["邱委員議瑩：是！所以這件事情我覺得可能還是要督促下去，請這些單位以後在做病蟲害防治宣導的時候，有一些基本的原則還是要拿捏好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","繼續請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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«農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文"},{"start":141.61,"end":154.326,"text":"每年大概都超過了三萬人以上去逛這個市集。部長我要讓您看的就是說農村再生這過去的十年來我們在地方做了這麼多我現在只單舉在本席的選區裡頭的幾個特殊獲獎的"},{"start":157.31,"end":175.548,"text":"那剛剛您提到這個我們知道這個經費大概在四年之後就會沒有了所以政府的立場上面會不會持續執行農村再生的計畫那農業部的版本有沒有什麼時候會送到立法院來部長"},{"start":176.129,"end":191.078,"text":"好謝謝委員我想也謝謝委員分享這樣的一個農村再生的就至少在高盆地區的一個成果那事實上農村再生它背後所的經費的資源就是我們的農村再生的一個基金那這樣的一個基金的確"},{"start":192.499,"end":207.052,"text":"讓我們有更多的資源能夠投入在農村的各項的一個建設包括基礎的一個環境建設還有人文景觀的一個持續那更重要就是透過一些現在導入的這些綠色造物也能夠讓農村的這些"},{"start":208.362,"end":234.853,"text":"租住在裡面的農村的青年人也好或者老年人也好能夠健康的老化那種種的農村的再生一定會繼續做那以農業部的立場就是我們經費的爭取我們一定會循著我們的預算程序向我們的行政院爭取就像我們的公務預算我們其他的基金的預算也是一樣我們會向行政院爭取那行政院如果說同意我們的相關的方案的時候那方案未來也是四年一個方案"},{"start":235.413,"end":247.322,"text":"那就像我們這次的11到113我們也是抱怨那抱怨提供以後那如果基金未來經費不足的時候那相關的行政院就會另外籌措預算來提供這樣的一個經費"},{"start":250.446,"end":266.38,"text":"雖然本席的提案裡頭是有直接明列希望你們把這個基金預算增加到4500億但後來我翻查了一下這個大概跟我們的財政紀律法其實是有一點相違背所以這個部分本席不堅持"},{"start":267.321,"end":288.652,"text":"但是我要您承諾的部分就是說農村再生的計劃其實是會持續做然後經費的部分農業部也會持續的來跟行政院爭取我想行政院對於這樣的一個農村發展的計劃應該是要給予全力的支持跟配合這整個不只是"},{"start":289.372,"end":307.447,"text":"在整個農村甚至整個農宅、農村的景觀、地方的創生、青年返鄉的就業等等其實都是要一併考量規劃但是部長我還要再跟您提醒一下過去做農村再生通常都會做這種彩繪牆、塗鴉牆"},{"start":310.55,"end":331.688,"text":"整個農村的牆面就畫一大堆但是畫來畫去都是畫日本的卡通人物版權有沒有拿到不知道三、五年後整個褪色又很醜也不知道要不要補或者是怎麼補然後這個跟比如說哆啦A夢或者是這個哆啦A夢這個龍貓跟這個社區的連結是什麼沒有"},{"start":332.449,"end":336.055,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":345.467,"end":372.232,"text":"是,這一定的,我想委員所秀的這個東西應該是在早期在大概民國100年那個一開始啟動的時候那時候大家不是非常清楚所以很多彩繪就不管怎麼樣現在還是有欸對,但是現在我們整個的一個彩繪跟裝置藝術其實地方的一個重要的裝置藝術跟彩繪的部分它是在在特定的地區而有的特定的我們的台灣的文化的導致"},{"start":372.852,"end":384.364,"text":"對,你還是要跟地方去做連結啊。比如說,像在內門他們做了很多宋江鎮的彩繪或是宋江鎮的裝置藝術,你這個跟地方的連結性就有。但你做哆啦A夢跟哆哆囉這個跟地方的連結性是沒有的嘛。部長我接下來要跟您請教一個現在的農業的狀態。"},{"start":396.235,"end":396.255,"text":"案。"},{"start":418.349,"end":420.132,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":433.704,"end":449.684,"text":"還有一個呢就是我們去收集那個蟲巷這個荔枝村巷的這個蟲卵片最近好像把這個政策停掉了可不可以說明一下除了我們的整個荔枝村巷的房子除了剛剛講這幾個以外還有沒有什麼新的方法"},{"start":450.705,"end":479.665,"text":"我跟委員說明就是當初有在跟地方政府在合作就是收購這個荔枝村巷的軟片它的葉片的下面那個時間點剛好是我們在相關的荔枝村巷的貧富小峰的物理性防治還沒有很健全而且還沒有很推廣的時候我們是搭配這些同軟的一個收購那現在貧富小峰本身的一個技術性已經非常成熟了所以我們現在是用化學防治"},{"start":480.445,"end":499.817,"text":"跟我們的物理防治共同。那現在最重要的就是不管是化學防治或物理防治一定要區域防治。如果個別的農田去防治的時候那個效果不顯著。所以你們會結合當地的縣市政府、農業局或者是農會、或者是產砂班。用區域防治、大區域防治的方式共同來啟動。"},{"start":501.097,"end":528.073,"text":"我最後30秒我要講的就是說剛剛講到那個荔枝春香你們很多的防治方法最近聽說你們林業署多了一個防治方法就是把它抓來然後炸來吃喔不然這個有一點本末倒置我知道很多的泰國籍的勞工會喜歡吃荔枝春香其實在我們農村地區很多他們都會找泰籍的勞工來幫忙抓荔枝春香但是吃荔枝春香是他們的文化不是我們的文化"},{"start":528.673,"end":550.395,"text":"那我們要去講求這個病蟲害的防治不應該去推廣所謂的叫大家來了解說怎麼樣去炸荔枝春香然後可以來吃這個是嚴重違法的行為即使做病蟲害防治我們都不應該自己帶頭去處罰所以部長這個可能也要請你們多多的督促我也覺得不恰當所以我已經有跟他們講"},{"start":551.576,"end":567.674,"text":"我們在病蟲化防制不能把那些蟲變成一個料理,這樣的話會造成一些外界的困擾所以這件事情我覺得可能還是要督促下去請以後的這些單位如果在做病蟲害防制的宣導的時候有一些基本的原則還是要能夠拿捏好"}]}},{"id":"152500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0e3df7e3c56f0a082ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e455de5def0959499e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:33:12 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09:41:45","影片長度":"00:08:33","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":513,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:41:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:33:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":227,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時33分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：羅委員早。"],["羅委員智強：部長，先恭喜你要出任國安會秘書長，成為賴清德的首位國安會秘書長，我想要跟部長請教一下，您自封是吵架王……"],["吳部長釗燮：那個不是我自封，是記者聯誼會在最後一次的聯誼中他們給我的一個幽默……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你也樂在其中啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有樂在其中，那是一個幽默。"],["羅委員智強：你還掛了一個布條，還發了社群……"],["吳部長釗燮：這個是應記者的要求。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦！其實今天本席不是來跟你吵架的……"],["吳部長釗燮：好。"],["羅委員智強：今天是來跟你講道理，所以我也希望待會你不要自稱「林北」，可不可以？"],["吳部長釗燮：到目前為止我都沒有這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：你在社群上自稱，我希望不要拿到國會來……"],["吳部長釗燮：我是從鄉下來，在鄉下自我稱呼是這樣子，但是這是在國會殿堂，我不會這樣處理。"],["羅委員智強：好，你也不用太擔心啦！你不在國會講「林北」，我也不會在國會學陳其邁，對著你說「我是你爸爸」，對不對？陳其邁這樣，但我就不會學他啦！所以你也不要在國會講「林北」，我們兩個就是相互的尊重，可以嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒問題。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你。我想請教一下部長，你知道馬英九總統第一任的國安會秘書長是誰？"],["吳部長釗燮：蘇起。"],["羅委員智強：如果蘇起自封吵架王，不管在國會還是在社群臉書，掛著彩帶洋洋得意自封吵架王……"],["吳部長釗燮：那個不是我自封的，那是媒體給我的一個幽默。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，部長，我給你一個勸告，如果你不認同這件事情，真的就不要掛那個彩帶，這一點你認同吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：這是記者給我的一個幽默……"],["羅委員智強：不是啊！彩帶總不是記者給你的吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：彩帶是記者給我的。"],["羅委員智強：彩帶是記者給你的，但你不要掛在身上嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：他們希望能夠掛在身上，然後跟我照相，這是一個幽默，好嗎？It's a sense of humor."],["羅委員智強：他叫你掛在身上你就掛在身上？沒關係啦！我再問，那另外一個你總不能推給記者了……"],["吳部長釗燮：我沒有推給記者。"],["羅委員智強：我是說另外一個，不是這一個，這個你推給記者沒關係啦！另外一個你總不能推給記者了，你在徐巧芯委員質詢的時候，連嗆8次「來告我藐視國會啊！」，我想請問，如果是蘇起他會講這種話嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我不確定。"],["羅委員智強：他不會講這種話。"],["吳部長釗燮：因為蘇起不會到立法院。"],["羅委員智強：如果蘇起對著民進黨的立委說：來告我藐視國會啊！你覺得民進黨的立委會接受嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：以後我到國安會的時候也不會再到立法院來。"],["羅委員智強：那沒關係啊！歐鴻鍊外交部長如果對著民進黨的立委說：你告我藐視國會啊！民進黨立委會接受嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我不確定。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，民進黨也不會接受啦！你不要講民進黨立委也不會接受，馬英九總統也不會接受，基本上，以馬英九總統過去的政府慣例，如果對國會用這種羞辱的方式……"],["吳部長釗燮：我沒有任何羞辱……"],["羅委員智強：我看恐怕也待不下去，不只是蘇起，蘇起是一個有涵養的人，他不會講這種話，所以蘇起不會講，蘇起也是一個尊重國會的人，他也不會講這種話，但是國安會秘書長何其重要的職務，今天如果是自詡為，就算是被封為，很開心地戴上了吵架王的披帶，然後在國會嗆：你來告我藐視國會啊！我就要問我們的部長，未來的國安會秘書長，賴清德總統認同你嗆立委說：來告我藐視國會嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我不知道，我沒有問他，他也沒有告訴我……"],["羅委員智強：你不會問他？"],["吳部長釗燮：我沒有問他，他也沒有告訴我。"],["羅委員智強：你沒有問他？"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["羅委員智強：那你覺得他認同嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，等國情報告時，我也想看看他認不認同一個官員直接嗆：來告我藐視國會啊！賴清德會支持你掛著彩帶到國會，或是在社群上說：我就是吵架王，他會認同嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我再說明一次，那個是最後一次跟記者做背景說明，他們送給我的一個幽默，他們給我的一個幽默，以幽默來回應……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！你講了3遍，就讓大家去評判！我真正重點是一件事情，部長，你聽聽看，聽我一句勸，你站在這個地方，其實代表的不只是吳釗燮，你代表的是蔡英文總統，現在、此時此刻，因為蔡英文總統任命你為外交部長，你也代表未來的賴清德總統當選人，因為你是他的第一任國安會秘書長，我真的覺得你不應該給你的總統，蔡英文總統跟賴清德總統，還沒上任的賴清德總統就被你添加一個藐視國會的所謂集團頭子的名字，不好啦！因為你的一言一行……就是叫大家去看看賴清德，如果賴清德真的對你要嗆「來告我藐視國會啊！」不聞不問，說真的，總統也是某種程度默許你、漠視你、縱容你在國會來嗆藐視國會嗎？我這樣講有沒有道理啊？"],["吳部長釗燮：能不能回應一下？"],["羅委員智強：好啊！你回應一下。"],["吳部長釗燮：我對國會是非常的尊重，國會as an institution，因為我也是政治學者，我對這個也非常的瞭解、非常的尊重……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！這樣好了！我給部長一個誠摰的建議，你說你對國會非常的尊重……"],["吳部長釗燮：所以像本來今天是不用來的，可是主席叫我來，我就來了，這個就是對國會最高度的尊重。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我肯定你願意出來談，像隔壁我們的司法及法制委員會，蔡清祥部長就跑掉了，這個我就沒辦法認同，所以我肯定你站在這個地方。我要跟部長說，還是那句話，你站在這裡，代表的其實不只你自己，你說你尊重國會，那就不要用一些讓大家覺得你不尊重國會的字彙、詞彙，你覺得「來告我藐視國會啊！」你覺得是尊重國會嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：委員，我必須要再說明一下……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長講，其實我很尊重你、尊敬你……"],["吳部長釗燮：我對institution，這個是絕對沒有問題，但是individual，就是個人跟institution是兩個不同的概念……"],["羅委員智強：所以來嗆「來告我藐視國會啊！」意思是你是針對徐巧芯而來？"],["吳部長釗燮：我對國會的尊重是毋庸置疑的。"],["羅委員智強：徐巧芯今天站在質詢臺，請問他是徐巧芯站在質詢臺嗎？我羅智強站在質詢臺，是羅智強站在質詢臺嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：委員請再說明一次……"],["羅委員智強：我們是按照憲政執行我們的質詢權，照你的說法的話，如果過去的官員不尊重王定宇委員，我可以說我今天所有對藐視國會的行為只衝著王定宇委員，我可以這樣講嗎？不可以嘛！我要再來講，我想請教一下部長，你知道前促轉會副主委張天欽自詡東廠引發軒然大波，他有一句名言叫影射的殺傷力最強，你聽過嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：張天欽……"],["羅委員智強：東廠張天欽，非常有名，沒關係，因為這個人不值得效法，所以基本上你不記得他也沒關係，那你認同張天欽用影射的方式攻擊在野黨人士嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我不知道那個前後，沒有辦法回答。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我想請問你「當中國在欺負臺灣時，我國的立法委員補進來踢一腳」，這句話總是你講的吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：對，這個是我講的。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，這句話是有真憑實據、真人姓名還是影射殺傷？"],["吳部長釗燮：真憑實據，當然有啊！我在國會裡面接受詢問……"],["羅委員智強：真人姓名有沒有？"],["吳部長釗燮：在國會裡面接受這種詢問，有關於我們在國際社會上面……"],["羅委員智強：好，我學一下徐巧芯，是傅崐萁委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：受到中國的威脅、欺壓的時候……"],["羅委員智強：你這次怎麼不講「來告我藐視國會啊！」？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想這種情況是經過很多次……"],["羅委員智強：你看吧！你又開始陷入跳針模式，我就問你是不是傅崐萁委員？還是今天是沈伯洋委員？還是今天是黃建豪委員？你今天跟我講你有真憑實據，沒有真人姓名嗎？有沒有真人姓名，再告訴我一次。"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員說明，就是在國會的詢問，以及平常的發言都有紀錄。"],["羅委員智強：有紀錄啊？那你連真人姓名都講不出來啊？這不是影射，什麼是影射？我還是奉勸部長，你身為政府官員，講話要負責任，你今天如果真的覺得有立委配合中共，涉及國安問題的話，就移送法辦，在這邊用張天欽的影射方式，於您部長的身分有損，於您部長的職分有損，於賴清德未來總統的施政有損，講話之前想想賴清德總統，以上。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-20","speakers":["馬文君","邱志偉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","羅智強","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","林憶君","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","黃國昌","陳菁徽","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","李坤城","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","楊瓊瓔","范雲","陳培瑜","王正旭","林月琴","牛煦庭","翁曉玲","葉元之","張雅琳","林思銘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（ WHA）執行現況」，併\n請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.395343750000002,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.879718750000002,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.06534375,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.14971875,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.976593750000003,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.22534375,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.47784375,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.88221875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.400968750000004,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.70034375,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.23034375,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.947218750000005,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.92596875,"end":50.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.94284375,"end":51.094718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.398468750000006,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.533468750000004,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.09846875,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.000968750000006,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.47284375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.20784375000001,"end":95.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.12221875,"end":92.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.12596875000001,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.20596875000001,"end":95.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.59409375,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.62784375000001,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.74096875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.33909375,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.49034375000001,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.25721875,"end":124.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.18034375,"end":126.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.95659375000001,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.26409375,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.72784375,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.84096875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.90346875,"end":142.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.78096875,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.49721875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.53471875,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.33846875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.50221875,"end":171.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.39221875,"end":172.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.51846875,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.75346875000002,"end":200.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.65784375,"end":207.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.62284375000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.85909375,"end":212.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.15846875000003,"end":211.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.62221875,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.63909375,"end":213.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.97221875000002,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.88909375,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.50846875000002,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.36846875,"end":247.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.86971875,"end":252.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.71284375000002,"end":278.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.94096875,"end":285.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.43346875000003,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.26784375,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.44034375,"end":297.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.65534375000004,"end":316.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":300.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.18596875000003,"end":304.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.74284375,"end":311.61096875000004},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安會秘書長我真的覺得你不應該給你的總統蔡英文總統跟賴清德總統還沒上任賴清德總統就被你添加一個藐視國會的這個所謂的集團的頭子的名字不好啦"},{"start":278.982,"end":282.164,"text":"能不能回應一下我對國會是非常的尊重國會阿珊institution"},{"start":304.475,"end":311.361,"text":"因為我也是政治學者,我對這個非常瞭解,非常的尊重。所以像主席叫我來,本來說今天不用來了,可是主席叫我來,我就來,這個就是對國會的最高度的尊重。就像隔壁我們的司法委員會,蔡新祥部長就跑掉了,這個我就沒辦法認同,我肯定你站在這個地方。"},{"start":325.672,"end":340.566,"text":"那我要跟部長說還是那句話你在這裡代表的其實不只你自己啦你說你尊重國會那就不要用一些讓大家覺得你不尊重國會的詞彙嘛你覺得你來告我藐視國會你覺得是尊重國會嗎"},{"start":343.157,"end":369.866,"text":"那個委員我必須要再說明一下我跟部長講其實我很尊重你啦尊敬你啦我對這個institution這個絕對是沒有問題但是individual就是個人跟這個institution這是兩個不同的概念我對國會的這個尊重這是無庸置疑的許曉鑫今天站在執行台請問他是許曉鑫站在執行台嗎羅智強站在執行台是羅智強站在執行台嗎"},{"start":371.164,"end":398.369,"text":"我們是按照憲政執行我們的執行權欸那照你的說法的話如果今天過去的官員不尊重王定宇委員我可以就說我今天所有的對藐視國會行為指重的王定宇委員我可以這樣講嗎?不可以嘛好那我要再來講我想請教一下部長齁那個你知道前處長會副主委張天青自詡東廠引發軒然大波齁他有一句名言叫影射的殺傷力最強你聽過嗎?"},{"start":402.06,"end":423.476,"text":"張天青東廠張天青非常有名沒關係因為這個人不值得效法所以基本上你不記得他也沒關係那你認同張天青用影射的方式攻擊在野黨人士嗎我不知道那個前後沒有辦法回答沒關係啊那我想請問你當中國在欺負台灣時我國立法委員補進來踢一腳這句話總是你講的吧"},{"start":424.766,"end":429.95,"text":"那我想請教你這句話是有真憑實據真人明信還是影射殺傷?"},{"start":433.396,"end":436.757,"text":"真憑實據當然有啊我在國會裡面接受那個詢問在國會裡面接受這種詢問那有關於我們在國際社會上面受到中國的這種威脅欺壓的時候那我想這種情況是已經經過的很多次了"},{"start":460.385,"end":461.646,"text":"跟委員說明就是說在國會的這個詢問以及平常的這個發言都有記錄"},{"start":478.459,"end":495.417,"text":"有記錄啊那你連真人姓名都講不出來啊這不是影射什麼是影射我這邊還是奉勸部長啊你身為政府官員講話今天要負責任你今天如果真的覺得有立委配合中共涉及國安問題的話移送法辦啦"},{"start":497.859,"end":512.319,"text":"在這邊用張天青的影射方式與您部長的身份有損與您部長的職份有損與賴清德未來總統的施政有損講話之前想想賴清德總統以上"}]}},{"id":"152499","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152499","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c046ed31985feff4ee881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45315cf85df7fa038c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:21:56 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09:34:24","影片長度":"00:12:28","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":748,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:34:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:21:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":96,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時22分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，聽您報告農村再生條例，你們農業部的立場是什麼？是要再撥補多少錢呢？就您整個的說明，我聽不出到底你是支持再撥補3,600億，還是支持4,500億？我個人不太能夠接受你要等新政府上任之後，因為你是繼任的部長，所以你們對於過往執行狀況的所有優點、缺點，需要再用什麼樣的……除了調整相關計畫外，需要多少金額，或者是刪減總體金額？你們不可能沒有一個評估，這樣你才能來說服我們立法院。我們立法院認為其實您看得還不夠精準，我們再把民意回饋給你們，這樣的討論才有意義，所以我不曉得您的主張是什麼？再撥補多少錢？這才是重點。"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，委員提的版本是增加到3,600億或4,500億，本部的立場非常明確，依據財政紀律法，目前在立法院相關提案的版本並沒有辦法增加這樣的經費上限。相關經費及預算擬定，是由行政單位……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你主張什麼？你認為現在就只剩下……按照你的報告來看，在一百一十幾年就只剩下四百多億，而你們一年的支出是100億……"],["陳代理部長駿季：平均大概100多億。"],["林委員岱樺：你們一年平均支出100億，所以你們現在只能再撐4年？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你的意思是都不要再補了，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我剛才也特別強調……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，對立法院的對話要務實，不要實問虛答……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，我沒有實問虛答。"],["林委員岱樺：好，所以你告訴我，你們內部認為最低基準是多少？還是說你覺得委員提的都太少了，應該撥補5,000億？這樣我們當然也可以接受，因為有什麼、什麼、什麼的計畫調整，因為有地球暖化、有氣候變遷，所以我們應該再加強什麼，我相信每個委員、藍綠立委都會接受。部長，您就調整一下您作為部長的角色，實問虛答這件事情在現在的立法院你只會吃虧而已。","我直接進入今天本席討論的主題，地球暖化只會讓農業災損成常態，也就是農業的補助也會成為常態。我這邊有幾個提綱跟您來討論，第一，全球暖化造成農產品產量減少；第二，針對現階段，現在4月、5月當中，我們農民是多麼的苦，另外，於氣候變遷，除了補助之外，政府應該有全新的政策規劃。所以本席有一個具體要求，我們因為氣候暖化，使得所產生的農產品產量減少，以臺中梨山水蜜桃為例，梨山是全臺灣水蜜桃最大產量的地區，但一年也只有一收，每年7、8月為採收期，現在這個時候，即4到5月是結果期，但農民因為氣候異常，水蜜桃只開花不結果，結果率僅約一成，導致水蜜桃產量減少，農民收成銳減，現在初估可能少五成，更可能達不到四成！再看到高雄，除了臺中梨山水蜜桃外，我們高雄有多項農產品，水蜜桃、青梅、荔枝、芒果也因為氣候異常，導致開花率、結果率都下降，造成收成銳減。再加上又有獼猴大軍偷吃，包括那瑪夏的水蜜桃、六龜的芒果、內門的鳳梨跟芭樂果園，皆遭獼猴入侵果園，農民被迫放棄採收，損失更加慘重，忙碌了一整年，卻徒勞無功，心血付諸流水！我們的農業天然災害救助辦法第四條規定，目前僅針對颱風、焚風、龍捲風、豪雨、霪雨、冰雹、寒流、旱災或地震所造成之災害給予補助，請問農業部可否將蟲害、病害及動物入侵所造成的損害納入補助範圍？這是第一個問題。我們的農民再如何的苦，這都是報紙所報，農業部23萬補助防猴，農民直言是不夠的，而且講到猴會跟人鬥，所以據本席瞭解，農業部跟我們高雄市政府有編列經費，補助防猴設施電網。但對於水蜜桃整個種植面積廣達一甲以上的農民來說，架設費用高、電費高、設備成本高，所以這樣的補助是不足以應付的，是一筆不小的開銷！而且猴子很聰明，會想辦法鑽漏洞，水蜜桃一樣遭偷吃啊！另外一個報導說，花蓮有民眾誤觸電網，慘遭電亡！顯現電網的防治效果有限，而且民眾會誤觸！所以我這邊就要請農業部研擬更合適的防阻方法，讓農民跟動物能夠共存。","面對這樣的氣候變遷，除了補助之外，本席一再強調，應該要有全新的政策規劃。我們來看左邊這張圖，高雄市那瑪夏的水蜜桃作物，這是從你們自己的官網抓下來的。109年那瑪夏每公頃的收量，其實整個栽種面積並沒有增加，但相同面積的收量，從109年每公頃6,339公斤，到111年銳減，不過短短兩年時間，每公頃的收量降到3,270公斤，減半啊！全球暖化、氣溫升高已經是不爭的事實，致農產品的產量逐漸降低。農業部所推廣的智慧農業都集中在哪裡？自動化！而且你的自動化也是在小型農機的自動化推廣，雖然可以省時、省力，大面積種植，但針對氣候問題持續惡化，農產品收成不佳，這不會因為自動化的關係而有所改善。面對極端氣候的影響，農業部應將智慧農業的重點放在智慧化、精準化來提升產能，以協助農民因應氣候變化。","更重要的，我一再強調，整個農業的決策、整個系統都應該要智慧化！再加上今天這一次，我至少有5次以上在質詢這個議題了！農業部可參考本席之前所質詢的掌握種源基因定序為主軸，以調適科學為架構，調整農時，找出適應物種，針對耐寒、耐熱、耐旱等不同極端氣候的情形，發展出不同的種植技術，以利農民因應未來氣候變遷。我就舉一個案例，高雄市的林園有在養殖石斑魚，他們在以前是怎麼去做配種呢？就透過目視，覺得A跟B比較好，我把它配種，現在呢？這樣做不行了，我就引進數發部，我說數發部你來補助，因為農業部他聽不懂，我就找了數發部來補助，用國內精密的基因定序，把A魚跟B魚的整個祖宗八代全部查出來，把它的基因整個查出來，發現A它耐吃，生肉率高，B它耐寒，我就把這兩個物種配種，能夠做繁殖了，所以產生出來的，你知道嗎？這個在地的養殖業者，一個青農，他願意接受我這個建議，願意接受我這個媒合，他現在銷到東南亞，品質多好啊，所以這就是基因定序的一個物種。我敢講目前在植物或者養殖業，它是不受氣候的，我們是可以給予它氣候因子而讓它有優生學，所以本席所講的智慧農業掌握基因定序這件事情與發展調適科學講的其實就是我們農業的優生學，農業的優生學才能去適應我們現在的極端氣候變化，這樣的政策你應該重新規劃才對。","所以我這邊舉了兩個重點，請農業部參考本席之前所質詢的掌握種源基因定序的概念，從源頭掌握，以調適科學即調整農時，找出適應的物種，研究可因應極端氣候的經濟作物，耐寒、耐熱、耐旱，以因應氣候變遷。除了補助之外，政府也應該要有全新的政策規劃，讓智慧化農業的智慧化、精準化，協助農民在氣候變遷時代也能夠種植跟豐收。","另外，你補助也要讓人民有感啊，除了發展這個東西之外，改變我們的物種之外，面對氣候變遷常態，農業部對於農產品的災損也應該化被動為主動，農業部現在是被動地等待地方政府呈報，應改為主動要求各縣市政府在第一時間農損產生的時候，就應該跟中央聯繫，啟動災損評估跟主動補助，光是我這一句話，就是你智慧化農業決策的體制要導入了。然後確保農民的生計，不要等到民怨沸騰了、媒體報導了，然後我們各黨各派的立委一直跟你打電話，政府才去補助，連解決民怨你都要預先啊。所以你要積極地找出調適科學的新物種，以及你在補助當中要化被動為主動，才是你這個繼任的部長該有的價值。好，部長請回應。"],["陳代理部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的建議，事實上，委員所提到的，我們百分之百認同，就是未來我們在新的政策裡面已經確定要用智慧韌性這樣的概念，把相關的精準農業跟智慧農業導入到整個產業體系，這是第一個部分。第二個部分，委員所提到的基因定序，正確的名稱應該講分子育種啦，因為分子育種……"],["林委員岱樺：這在農業上叫分子育種，但在我們產業，這個基因定序不是只有針對……也針對我們人啊，這是中央研究院的學士，我們在做積極的討論時所給我的名詞。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解，就是說我們在產業上面，不管在農作物也好，或在水產品也好，我們都用分子育種就精準的這些、您所講的這些描述的育種方向，我們會共同朝這個方向去努力。"],["林委員岱樺：好，所以你對於這個補助應該要納入動物的損害……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個部分，我想我們也瞭解到有人的……"],["林委員岱樺：還有蟲害、病害。"],["陳代理部長駿季：就是我們希望說，這個部分天然災害是不是可以納入，我們除了會啟動一個評估以外，另外，我們也同步啟動用農業災害的保險去做相關的一個互補。"],["林委員岱樺：好，但法規還是法規面啊，如果你認為蟲害、病害跟動物入侵是有的，那至少我就依這個辦法，各縣市有所依據啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，這個要先確認是不是納入……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你要不要研議？帶入研議，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：好，部長剛才有回答要研議，請研議好之後送交給我們委員，謝謝。","接下來，我們請邱議瑩委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.43096875,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.13971875,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.865343750000001,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.83909375,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.34909375,"end":74.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.49659375,"end":72.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.16284375000001,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.14659375000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.76471875,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.83221875000001,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.08034375000001,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.51909375000001,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.40909375000001,"end":121.10909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.50159375000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.16346875,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.74971875000001,"end":127.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.77909375,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.87471875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.26096875000002,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.09596875,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.44596875,"end":289.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.35284375000003,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.90534375000004,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.41909375,"end":325.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.90409375,"end":327.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.87846875,"end":341.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.07034375,"end":347.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.41534375000003,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.40221875000003,"end":384.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.75971875000005,"end":392.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.66159375,"end":401.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.70659375,"end":412.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.57409375000003,"end":531.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.15034375,"end":561.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.1372187500001,"end":566.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.0478437500001,"end":570.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.49034375,"end":605.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.97846875,"end":619.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.30971875,"end":639.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.6272187500001,"end":663.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.87659375,"end":665.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.3615937500001,"end":687.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.34971875,"end":700.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.9865937500001,"end":689.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.6697187500001,"end":692.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.55971875,"end":693.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.60096875,"end":710.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.6540937500001,"end":715.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.0334687500001,"end":713.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.04159375,"end":729.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.04971875,"end":718.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.0815937500001,"end":737.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.14784375,"end":742.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.08846875,"end":746.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.2734687500001,"end":743.5434687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.592,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會的林黛嬅委員請做詢問。"},{"start":13.862,"end":41.182,"text":"部長聽您的這個報告啊這個農村再生條例那你們農業部的立場是什麼是要再撥補多少錢呢在您整個的說明我聽不出到底你是支持三千再撥補三千六百億呢還是再支持四千五百億呢那我個人不太能夠接受說好你要等新政府上任之後因為你是繼任的部長所以你們對於過往的執行狀況"},{"start":42.483,"end":47.265,"text":"檢查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":72.318,"end":76.641,"text":"邱議瑩等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":98.755,"end":105.839,"text":"你認為說好,我們就只剩下110,按照你的報告是112、113,110幾年就已經只剩下900多、400多億欸一年你們的支出是100億,你們在農村支出一年平均100億,所以你現在只能再撐4年欸"},{"start":116.704,"end":121.246,"text":"所以你的意思是說都不要再補了是嗎?部長對立法院的對話要務實不要實問虛答所以你告訴我你們內部認為最低基準是多少還是說你覺得應該委員提的都太少了我應該撥補五千億"},{"start":136.294,"end":137.235,"text":"我相信每個委員藍綠立委都會接受"},{"start":148.739,"end":162.991,"text":"好了,這個部長,您就要調整一下您作為部長的一個角色。實問虛的這件事情在現在立法院你只會吃虧而已。好,我直接進入今天本席的一個討論的主題,地球暖化。"},{"start":166.434,"end":168.555,"text":"只會讓農業災損成常態也就是我農業的補助也會成為常態我這邊有幾個提綱跟您來討論第一個全球暖化造成的農產品產量減少第二是針對現階段現在4月5月"},{"start":185.982,"end":190.423,"text":"這當中我的農民是多麼的苦。以及面對氣候變遷我除了補助之外政府應該有全新的政策的規劃所以本期有一個具體的要求我們因為氣候暖化所產生的農產品產量減少以台中梨山水蜜桃為例梨山是全台灣水蜜桃最大產量的"},{"start":207.369,"end":229.478,"text":"一年也只有一收,每年七、八月為採收期,現在這個時候四到五月是結果的時期,但農民因為氣候異常,水蜜桃只開花不結果,結果率僅約一成,導致水蜜桃的產量減少,農民收成是銳減的,現在出乎可能少五成,更可能達不到四成。"},{"start":230.718,"end":238.683,"text":"好在看到我的高雄除了台中的這個梨山水蜜桃外我們高雄有多項的農產品喔水蜜桃、青梅、荔枝、芒果也因為氣候異常導致我的開花率、結果率都下降造成收成銳減再加上我又有猕猴大軍的投資包括南麻夏的這個水蜜桃、六龜的芒果、內門的鳳梨跟"},{"start":256.874,"end":275.662,"text":"華臘果園接招彌猴入侵果園,農民被迫放棄採收,損失更加慘重。我忙碌了一整年,是徒勞無功,心血付諸流水。我們的《農業天然災害救助辦法》第四條規定目前僅針對颱風、逢風、龍捲風、豪雨、淫雨、冰庫、冰暴、寒流、旱災及地震所造成的災害"},{"start":284.386,"end":288.69,"text":"給補助請問農業部可否將從後併害動物入侵所造成的損害納入補助範圍呢?這是第一個問題好那我們的這個農民再如何的苦呢?這個都是報紙所報"},{"start":303.481,"end":327.103,"text":"農業部23萬補助防喉,農民職員這是不夠的,而且講到說喉會跟我們人鬥。所以就本席了解,農業部跟我們高雄市政府是有編列經費補助防喉設施電網的,但是對於水蜜桃整個種植面積廣大一甲以上的農民,架設費用高。"},{"start":328.544,"end":344.589,"text":"電費高、設備成本高、補助不足以根本這樣的補助是不足以應付的,是一筆不小的開銷,而且盒子很聰明,不想辦法鑽漏洞,水蜜桃一樣是遭偷吃啊。另外一個報導說花蓮有民眾誤觸電網,慘遭電網啊。"},{"start":349.43,"end":377.496,"text":"這個顯現我們電網的防制效果有限而且民眾因為誤觸請這邊我就要請農業部研擬更合適的防堵方法讓農民跟動物能夠共存好面對這樣的氣候變遷我除了補助之外本席一再的強調應該要有全新的政策規劃我們來看左邊這張圖高雄市的南馬小的桃我們的水壁桃的作物從這個是你們自己的官網喔"},{"start":379.197,"end":389.304,"text":"109年我的喇嘛俠的是每公頃的收量,其實整個栽種面積我沒有增加。這個面積的收量從109年的每6339公頃每公頃6300累減到111年不過短短兩年的時間,我每公頃的收量降到3270減半。"},{"start":401.852,"end":414.745,"text":"全球暖化氣候升高已經即是不爭的事實,農產品的產量逐漸降低,農業部所推廣的智慧農業你們都集中在哪裡?叫做自動化,而且你的自動化也是在這個農機小型農機的一個自動化的推廣"},{"start":418.488,"end":434.8,"text":"雖然可以省時省力大面積的種植,但是呢,針對氣候問題持續的惡化,農產品收成不佳,這個不會是因為你自動化的關係會有所改善。所以面對極端氣候的影響,農業部應將智慧農業的重點放在智慧化。"},{"start":437.882,"end":460.892,"text":"基因準化來提升產能以協助農民來因應其變化。」更重要的我一再強調我整個農業的決策整個系統都應該要智慧化這已經今天再加上這一次我至少是五次以上在質詢這個議題的農業部應該參考本期之前所質詢的掌握種源基因定序為主軸以調適科學為架構調整農時找出適應的物種針對耐寒"},{"start":466.974,"end":473.299,"text":"耐熱、耐旱等不同極端氣候的情形發展出不同的物種技術,以令農民來因應未來的氣候。」我就舉一個案例,我在高雄市的我們這林園這個養那個石斑魚,好啊,這以前我怎麼做配種呢?我就牧師,這個A跟B比較好,我把它配種。現在呢這樣不行了,我就引進速發部,我說速發部你來補助,因為農業部他聽不懂。好,我說你就在,我就找了速發部補助了。"},{"start":496.897,"end":506.5,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具"},{"start":513.302,"end":515.143,"text":"案 二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第七條條文"},{"start":532.159,"end":534.74,"text":"所以這就是基因定序的一個物種啊我們的我敢講目前在動物在植物或者這個養殖業他是不受氣候的我們是可以給予他氣候因子而讓他有優生學所以這個本席所講的智慧農業掌握基因定序這件事情以發展調適科學講的其實就是我們農業的優生學"},{"start":562.671,"end":578.127,"text":"農業的優生學才能去適應我的現在的極端氣候變化這樣的政策你應該重新規劃才對所以我這邊幾個兩個重點請農業部參考本期之前所質詢的掌握種源基因定序的概念從源頭掌握"},{"start":578.607,"end":605.234,"text":"以調適科學調整農食找出適應的物種研究可因應極端氣候的經濟作物耐寒耐熱耐旱以因應氣候變遷除了補助之外政府也應該有全新的政策規劃讓智慧化農業的智慧化精準化協助農民在氣候變遷時代也能夠種植跟豐收另外你補助也要讓人民有感啊"},{"start":606.041,"end":608.763,"text":"除了發展這個東西之外改變我們的這個物種之外我氣候變遷常態農業部對農產品的摘損也應該化被動為主動你們現在農業處被動的等待地方政府呈報好然後呢應改為主動要求各縣市政府在第一時間農村產生的時候"},{"start":626.215,"end":633.6,"text":"你就應該跟我中央這個聯繫啟動災損評估針主動補助光是我這一句話就是你智慧化農業決策的體制你就要導入了然後確保農民的生計不要等到民怨沸騰的這個媒體報導了然後我們各黨各派的立委"},{"start":647.529,"end":661.76,"text":"一直給你打電話好你政府才去補助連解決民怨你都要預先啊所以你在積極的找出你的調適科學的新物種以及你要補助當中化被動為主動才是你這個繼任的部長該有的這個價值啊"},{"start":663.982,"end":691.427,"text":"好部長請回應非常謝謝委員的一個建議那事實上委員所提到的我們百分之百認同就是未來我們在新的政策裡面已經確定了用智慧韌性的這樣的概念把相關的精準農業跟智慧農業去導入到整個的一個產業體系這第一個部分第二個部分就是委員所提到的基因定訊正確的名稱應該講分子育種因為分子育種是在農業上叫分子育種在我們產業這個基因定訊不是只有針對業針對我們人"},{"start":693.667,"end":710.167,"text":"所以這是中央研究院、中央研究院的學士我們在做積極的討論所給我的意思我了解就是說我們在產業上面不管在農作物也好或是在水產品也好我們都用分子育種就精準的這些您所講的這些描述的育種方向我們會共同朝這個方向"},{"start":710.948,"end":715.573,"text":"那你對於這個補助應該應該納入動物的蟲害還有蟲害病害那另外我們也同步啟動用農業災害的保險去做相關的一個護符"},{"start":729.907,"end":744.407,"text":"法規還是法規面啊?你們如果你認為蟲害、病害跟動物入侵是有的,那至少我就依這個辦法,各縣市有所依據啊。不是,這個要先確認齁,是不是納入。所以你要不要研議啊,好不好,帶動研議好不好。好,那部長剛才有回答,要研議齁,請研議好給,送交給我們委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152498","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0d71af0af8b762a06ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e45503e7d5bbc3009275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:17:14 - 09:32:50","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「推動國際社會聲援我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）執行現況」，併請衛生福利部列席，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-20"},"duration":936,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:32:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:17:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":94,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時17分）主席，我想請魔法部部長上臺。"],["林委員楚茵：有這個部嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：那我請MOFA部長上臺。MOFA就是代表外交部，請外交部部長上臺。"],["主席：請外交部部長上臺。"],["吳部長釗燮：徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早安。部長，我第一個問題想先確認一下我應該要如何稱呼你，因為您在MOFA公開的社群網站上說你是外交部的魔法部吵架王，然後你也用「林北」稱呼你自己，所以請問我今天應該要稱呼你為魔法部長，還是04588？"],["吳部長釗燮：在立法院裡面，我也很認真地跟委員回答，這個彩帶是我在最後一次跟記者……"],["徐委員巧芯：「林北」是你寫的吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：我跟你說明一下，就是記者他們送給我的臨別禮物……"],["徐委員巧芯：你也很開心啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：用一種幽默的方式對待我，我也用一種幽默的方式來回應，對任何人沒有任何不敬的意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，請問你今天都會使用您剛剛所說的鄉下語言來備詢嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：不會，在國會的殿堂，我會用正式的國語來跟大家回應。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，因為我還沒有打算要多認一個爸爸，所以謝謝你。","部長，我想請問一下，最近你是否有感到傷心呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我上一次說我傷心的原因是因為我覺得這個外交……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我問你感不感到傷心而已……"],["吳部長釗燮：我要跟你說……"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有問你原因。我沒有問你原因。"],["吳部長釗燮：我會跟你說明，就是因為我們在對捷克這個外交受到一些這種不明的這種……"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有問你原因，我只問你是不是有感到傷心。"],["吳部長釗燮：為那件事情我感到傷心。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我看到你在節目上面說，對你來說是很傷心的，但是為了希望部長能夠快樂一點，所以我今天有準備了一份小禮物，希望我們在行政、立法上面不要這麼衝突。我想要詢問一下主席，是不是可以讓我的時間稍微暫停，把我的禮物送給外交部長？好，得到允許的話，我今天送的是蜜餞芒果乾。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：主席也有，各位同仁也有，等一下都會發下去，今天大家都有。","正式進入主題，我國2024年建立促進烏克蘭重建初級項目能量照護夥伴關係備忘錄當中，我們總共援助了……不是我們，是總共援助了烏克蘭多少個項目？部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：一共31個項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：一共31個項目。今年度、2024年呢？不是全部的項目，是2024年。主席，他們一直這樣子討論，時間可能要幫我暫停一下，因為我不知道他們要這樣多久。"],["吳部長釗燮：9個項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，9個項目，是不是？9個項目。請問一下，在捷克方面來說，他們總共在這個計畫裡面找了多少家廠商來協助計畫的推動？"],["吳部長釗燮：捷克政府不是找廠商，捷克政府是希望他們的CHTI來協助從事這件計畫的執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：那他們有沒有找廠商來協助？"],["吳部長釗燮：他們當然是在……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是有找幾家的廠商來協助？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我沒有辦法確定他們找了幾家廠商，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有辦法確定？"],["吳部長釗燮：但是他們的執行就是去找到最合適在烏克蘭境內所需要的這些項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，我們看一下下一張投影片。可是你不是在先前接受媒體訪問的時候，你說你對捷克的外交期刊早就有掌握了，有沒有這件事情？你有回答過嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是，我們有掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你有掌握，但是我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了，所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊。在捷克外交部出版的現代經濟外交期刊都把這些內容寫出來了，我現在開書考，可以作答嗎？幾個項目、多少間廠商，可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下？因為你說你有掌握，而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛。如果他們需要討論的話，主席，是不是可以幫我的時間暫停一下？"],["主席：就委員的問題回答，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想有關於這些細節的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：細節？"],["吳部長釗燮：很細的細節部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：那篇文章並不長欸。"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道，但是有關於細節的部分，沒有辦法像一個電腦無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是上面寫得很清楚啊。"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於這個部分的話，是不是請相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些細節？"],["徐委員巧芯：事後才能提供，現在不能提供，可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊，怎麼今天我在國會殿堂問你的時候，你們會一問三不知呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：有，那個……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在開書考……"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道……"],["徐委員巧芯：就在這篇、就在這篇文章上面。"],["吳部長釗燮：有6家廠商，但是依照我們相互……"],["徐委員巧芯：6家廠商？"],["吳部長釗燮：6家廠商，依照我們相互的約定就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：那捷克部分呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：廠商的名稱我們不會對外公開。"],["徐委員巧芯：捷克部分呢？幾家廠商？"],["吳部長釗燮：捷克的部分，我們沒有辦法掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有辦法掌握？可是你不是說你掌握期刊了嗎？我們來看下一張投影片，我幫你翻譯好不好？我為了這件事情，很努力的去學了捷克文，大家可以看到，用魔法部的魔杖給大家看一下，其他項目將由臺灣政府提供資金，這個東亞國家將提供總額為1,000萬美元的資金，並且在3年內逐步撥付，而且3年內逐漸使用，其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自臺灣公司，今年還有5個項目；再來，約有20家公司參與交付，兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊上面公開寫了。吳釗燮部長、田次長，你們都說你們有掌握這份文件，但是我問你們卻一問三不知，就連歐洲司的司長都不知道。","我們回到剛剛那一頁投影片，就寫在這個地方，所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢？就像當時，你們說百分之百跟第三方合作是，合作方式都是百分之百公開透明，說我全屬空穴來風、說我造謠，結果我揭露的事根本要保密10年！之後告我洩密，我們個人的官司不在這裡提，我覺得沒有意思，我只想說：不要一再的欺騙國人……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有意思要欺騙國人，也沒有要欺騙立法院。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們說掌握了現代經濟外交期刊的內容，結果我問你，不管是這個內容，或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的，你們根本就沒有掌握嘛，再來下一張……"],["吳部長釗燮：對方說約有20家公司，可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步，他們到最後會有多少，我現在沒有辦法掌握……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你的問題是……約有多少……我問你的是，你有沒有掌握這份期刊上面的說明，你告訴我說有，但是我給你開書考之後，你回答不出來，這就是剛剛所發生的事實，可以不用再跟我硬拗了，下一張投影片。","神奇的捷克大秘寶，我想問一個問題，我們今天支持、協助烏克蘭，我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力，但為什麼要跳過政府採購法？把金額打給CHTI之後，他們再來跟臺灣的醫療廠商來採購，理由是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：烏克蘭境內需要什麼，因為我們人沒有辦法過去，他們跟我們沒有正式關係，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們不能提供清單給我們嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是因為我們跟他們之間沒有直接的關係，所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助……"],["徐委員巧芯：不能提供清單給我們，然後我們……"],["吳部長釗燮：捷克的CHTI能夠進去到他們的醫療院所，瞭解他們所需要的項目，由他們來採購。"],["徐委員巧芯：那請問這部分的金額300萬美金，立法院要如何監督？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於這個部分是應立法院在2014年的決議來進行的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我等一下就會來問了！"],["吳部長釗燮：這個採購是CHTI的採購，不受我們國內採購法的限制，它受到捷克境內相關的法律規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我可不可以說300萬到400萬的美金，透過這樣子的邏輯，它之後再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上，因為只有CHTI捷克幫他們去購買，那請問什麼樣的廠商會收到通知？什麼時候開始購買？目前應該已經撥付了100萬美金出去，照每年去計算的話，請問這100萬美金用在哪幾間醫材公司購買？買了多少？用了多少？現在外交部的掌握是如何？"],["吳部長釗燮：依照雙方的合約，我們是提供相關的援助、金額的援助，但是關於跟我們購買的部分是依照立法院的決議來進行，至於CHTI的採購是依照他們國內的採購規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你不知道啦！你不知道答案啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：以及歐盟的採購規範……"],["徐委員巧芯：我聽你這樣講，很清楚，你不知道那100萬的美金用到哪裡去了啦！"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道跟哪些廠商，我看過這些相關資料、我知道這些相關資料，但是不能夠對外透露。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道你真的不清楚那100萬用到哪裡去了。"],["吳部長釗燮：他們過一段時間也會提期中報告……"],["徐委員巧芯：要過一段時間，所以你們現在還沒拿到囉？拿到沒有？"],["吳部長釗燮：目前還沒有拿到他們的期中報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：還沒有拿到嘛！這才是事實。","來，下一張投影片，剛才你說了，用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求，指定部分需要向臺灣採購，創造臺灣商機。後面這一段沒有問題，跟臺灣廠商採購增加臺灣商機，可是我們今天要問的是，為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們，我們再透過政府採購法公開、公平的讓優良的臺灣醫材去競爭？你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的。然後，我要請問，回應立法院，是否代表有立法委員向外交部要求？"],["吳部長釗燮：這一次並沒有，但是跟委員說明……"],["徐委員巧芯：這次並沒有，為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上？"],["吳部長釗燮：是因為2014年立法院決議之後，我們一直都遵守立法院的決議……"],["徐委員巧芯：立法院2014年的決議我看過，並沒有說要繞過政府採購法，只是說……"],["吳部長釗燮：它也沒有規定要依據政府採購法……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們亂寫，它只是說，如果今天要採購的話，希望能夠增加臺灣醫材或者是各式各樣採購的比例，讓臺灣的廠商也能夠賺錢。我剛剛問你的問題是，為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：導致你們現在100萬美金到底出去了多少，買到……你剛剛都承認，你根本到目前都不知道。所以我要問的問題是，如果接受國會議員的建議，沒有不可以，但是請問提出這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你有掌握齁但是呢我剛剛問的兩個問題都在捷克公開的外交期刊上面已經有解釋了所以我們可以來看一下這個捷克的外交期刊"},{"start":276.787,"end":301.383,"text":"在捷克外交出版的《現代經濟外交期刊》都把這些內容寫出來了我現在開書考可以作答嗎幾個項目多少間廠商可不可以幫我們解釋出來一下因為你說你有掌握嘛而且田次長上次也說有掌握嘛如果他們需要討論的話主席是不是可以幫我們時間暫停一下"},{"start":303.71,"end":311.581,"text":"有關於這些細節的部分,我知道,但是有關於細節的部分沒有辦法說像那個一個電腦裡面無限的容量全部容納在我的腦袋裡面"},{"start":320.733,"end":346.314,"text":"有關於這個部分的話我是不是請我們相關的同仁事後來提供委員這些時間事後才能提供現在不能提供可是田次長跟吳部長你們都公開說你們有掌握這份期刊啊怎麼今天我在國會對談問你的時候你們會疑問三不知呢我現在開書考就在這篇就在這篇文章上面有六家廠商但是依照我們六家廠商那依照我們相互的這種約定就是"},{"start":350.197,"end":354.22,"text":"我為了這件事情很努力的去學了捷克文來大家可以看到用魔杖給大家看一下魔法部的"},{"start":370.6,"end":389.921,"text":"其他項目將由台灣政府提供資金這個東亞國家將提供總額為一千萬美元的資金並且在三年內逐步撥付而且呢三年內逐漸使用其中支援條件百分之三十的供應品來自台灣公司今年還有五個項目"},{"start":391.078,"end":415.743,"text":"再這一句然後約有20家公司參與交付兩個問題都明顯的在捷克現代經濟外交期刊捷克公開上面就寫了吳釗燮部長田次長你們都說你們有掌握這份文件但是我問出來你們一問三不知就連歐洲司的司長都不知道我們回到剛剛那一頁"},{"start":418.174,"end":447.147,"text":"就寫在這個地方所以為什麼要不斷的欺騙國人呢就像當時你們說百分之百的跟第三方合作是合作方式叫做公開透明的百分之百說我都是全屬空穴來風說我造謠結果呢我揭露了是根本要保命十年以後告我泄密我們個人的官司不在這裡提我覺得沒有意思"},{"start":447.887,"end":454.872,"text":"那呢我只想說不要一再的欺騙國人沒有意思要欺騙國人也沒有要欺騙立法院你們說掌握了現代經濟期刊的內容結果我問你不管是這個內容或者是你剛剛的回答都是錯誤的嘛你們根本就沒有掌握嘛再來下一張對方說約有20家公司可是這個合作計畫才剛剛起步我問你的問題是"},{"start":476.067,"end":476.367,"text":"下一張"},{"start":492.105,"end":512.041,"text":"神奇的捷克大祕寶我想問一個問題我們今天我們支持烏克蘭協助我們也支持跟捷克一起共同努力但為什麼要跳過政府採購法要去把金額打給CHTI之後他再來跟台灣的醫療廠商來採購理由是什麼"},{"start":515.783,"end":538.083,"text":"因為烏克蘭境內他們需要什麼因為我們人沒有辦法過去他們跟我們沒有政治關係所以就是因為我們跟他們沒有直接的關係所以需要透過捷克的CHTI來協助捷克的CHTI能夠進去到那邊去他們的醫療院所瞭解到他們所需要的這些項目那請問這一部分的金額300萬美金立法院要如何監督"},{"start":542.927,"end":543.668,"text":"所以我可不可以說這300萬到400萬的美金透過這樣子的邏輯之後"},{"start":562.242,"end":567.245,"text":"再也不會出現在中華民國的任何帳上因為只有CHTI捷克方他去購買那請問什麼樣的廠商他會收到通知什麼時候開始購買目前應該已經撥放了一百萬的美金出去照每年去計算的話請問這一百萬美金用在購買哪幾間的醫材公司買了多少用了多少"},{"start":589.739,"end":592.244,"text":"我們現在外交部的掌握是如何的?"},{"start":592.773,"end":595.694,"text":"我聽你這樣講很清楚你不知道跟100萬的美金用到哪裡去了我知道這些相關的資料但是不能夠對外透露"},{"start":622.563,"end":622.703,"text":"下一張投影片"},{"start":637.933,"end":658.454,"text":"你們說 剛才你說了用這種很奇怪的方式規避政府採購法是為了回應立法院的要求指定部分需要向台灣採購創造台灣商機後面這一段沒有問題跟台灣廠商採購增加台灣商機可是我們今天要問的是"},{"start":659.535,"end":681.434,"text":"為什麼不是CHTI、捷克、烏克蘭提供清單給我們我們再透過政府採購法公開公平的讓優良的台灣醫才去競爭你們給我們的回應是立法院要求的來我要請問立法院回應立法院是否代表有立法委員向要外交部要求"},{"start":683.377,"end":693.906,"text":"這次並沒有但是跟委員說明這次並沒有為什麼你要寫在你的新聞稿上是因為2014年的時候立法院的這個決議之後我們一直都遵守立法院的決議立法院的決議2014我看過他並沒有說要繞過政府採購法"},{"start":699.25,"end":705.812,"text":"他也沒有規定說要依據政府採購法所以你們亂寫他只是說如果今天要採購的話希望能夠增加台灣包含醫材或者是各式各樣的採購的比例讓台灣的廠商也能夠賺錢我剛剛問你的問題是為什麼要跳過政府採購法給CHTI之後再出去導致你們現在到底"},{"start":726.138,"end":726.779,"text":"請問提出這些建議的人是誰?"},{"start":741.683,"end":747.186,"text":"我再跟委員說明一次就是CHTI他們的這個採購是依照他們國內的這個採購法以及相關的歐盟的這個規範來進行那這是一家非常優良的這種我問你的是台灣方面你不要跟我講CHTI嘛我問你的是我們所要我們所使用的這樣子的一個方式在過去是沒有的是我們把錢打給CHTI之後再有CHTI"},{"start":770.038,"end":773.619,"text":"我問他們當時在臺灣招商的時候有讓所有的衣材廠商都知道這件事情能夠公平競爭嗎?我並不清楚他們購買的程序因為我們的合作的對象是CHTI所以就算他們有跟所有的衣材廠商用臺灣公平競爭你們也不在乎你們也無所謂是這樣嗎?我們限定合約可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":797.165,"end":803.528,"text":"我個人認為完全沒有正當性最後最後下一張採購時間我們目前在台灣的採購時間就台灣300到400萬美金像13年來說應該是100萬美金採購時間何時招標何時決標招標程序是否公開透明有沒有依據政府採購法"},{"start":825.077,"end":827.08,"text":"德標廠商是誰?幾家投標?德標廠商品相?德標品相如何分開採購?德標金額最有利標是多少?限制性招標是多少?付款方式是多少?是否已經付款付了多少?可不可以匯耗?"},{"start":842.899,"end":845.661,"text":"給我回覆所以你們這樣子就救過了國內的政府採購法你不是說他們之後會告訴你嗎所以我們丟了一筆錢出去然後到底花到哪裡去了我們外交部也不管這樣有正當嗎所以我問"},{"start":863.593,"end":866.455,"text":"所以以後所有的援助烏克蘭的專案都是用同樣的方式來處理嗎?我最後一個問題問你以後所有的援助烏克蘭或是以前所有援助烏克蘭的方式都是用這一次的這種方法處理嗎?"},{"start":893.11,"end":903.155,"text":"是或不是嗎?你不要我的時間很有限不要去講一大堆是不是我們過去以及未來的MOU都是用這種把錢打給外面然後讓外面來處理的以及最後回答我一個問題我現在的具體要求回覆能不能夠會後提供給我"},{"start":920.444,"end":921.765,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"}]}},{"id":"152497","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152497","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0460b2314f1a7a174ad847f93a84224faabc25b9e10ac7e458c2839e58beef2975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:15:50 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何委員 何委員這是我的時間欸先講好不好我說請所有的委員今天這個議題非常重要請大家針對今天WHA的問題好好地詢問那我希望說今天登記的委員很多請主席也要控制時間"},{"start":67.538,"end":86.633,"text":"本席擔任主席我會做10加2分鐘在本委員會已經很久現在另外一位趙偉也在這裡所以我提醒趙偉時間到的時候你要考慮到下一個委員的發言權利發言的權利因為每次在這邊你都讓前面的委員唱什麼語言變成10加N分鐘"},{"start":92.858,"end":92.878,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":112.059,"end":116.902,"text":"最後一次在外交委員會以外交部長身份列席我希望能好好詢問"}]}},{"id":"152495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0e468284767241874881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45c86b1471d7cd93fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:06:46 - 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Eats，也不願意留在農村務農。但是政府明年又要推動新的國土計畫法，讓農村再也難以變更，在2011年農村再生條例執行之後，其實當初提案時是1,200億，當時本席以及我們的楊瓊瓔委員也是大力支持，要從1,200億增加到1,500億，沒想到經過了這麼多年，我們又已經花完這筆錢，也希望讓農村能夠真正翻轉命運，讓農村再生計畫能夠繼續推動。因為農村再生計畫也是未來能夠順利推動國土計畫法的一環，農再條例通過之後，全國各縣市致力於帶動農業產業發展，包括雲林作為農業大縣，更是積極的投入於農村社區之再生營造。在農村再生計畫的支持之下，進行農村景觀美化，維護農村重要生態以及打造地方特色產業文化，逐步提升農村的居住與人文品質，活絡在地的經濟活動。","十餘年來，雲林總共核定了2,001案，在雲林縣449個社區當中，已經有305個社區參與培根計畫，150個社區完成培根計畫課程之後，已經核定農村再生計畫，取得農村再生社區的身分，這是目前全臺灣農村再生最多的縣市，這也是本席當初推動農村計畫法通過之後，每一村、每一村的下去做說明會，那時候我記得說明會說明了一百多村才得到這樣子的結果，那在偏鄉呢？在偏鄉與都市資源不均衡的現況之下，農再基金是農村培育人力與在地產業發展的一個重要資源，然而十餘年來，基金的經費已經幾乎用完，因此本席提案修改農再條例第七條，擴增基金規模由1,500增為3,600億，並於10年內分年編列預算，以幫助農業縣市農村發展，翻轉農村的形象，讓更多的年輕人願意根留農村，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請農業部陳代理部長駿季就委員提案版本報告。"],["陳代理部長駿季：主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生，大家早。今天大院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會召開審查張嘉郡委員等19人提出「農村再生條例第二條及第七條修正草案」、邱議瑩委員等17人及楊瓊瓔委員等18人提出「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條修正草案」等3案，本部就農村再生條例執行情形及委員修法方向予以報告，請各位委員不吝指教，以下用簡報的方式跟各位說明。","農村再生條例自民國99年公布以後，在相關的再生條例裡面規定，政府應設置農村再生基金1,500億，並在10年內分年編列預算，在100年度成立農村再生基金辦理相關業務，相關的農村再生政策到目前為止是執行到第四期。第一期是101年到104年，第二期是105年到108年，第三期是109年到112年，第四期是113年到116年，這個計畫業經行政院核定。整個計畫推動重點，第一期經費用了將近276億左右，主要重點在農村再生推動，因為當初計畫一開始，最主要是在人力培育方面，跟社區的一些小型工程。第二期開始我們擴大地方政府參與農村再生，加強農村各項基礎設施改善，同時也朝著產業面來提升農村產業的競爭力，實際核編287億左右。第三期經費是建構在第二期的推動成果，我們更持續推動地方創生，從過去的點去連結成一個區域網絡，活絡整個農村經濟及強化農村友善生態環境。第四期是從今年開始，113年到116年，我們編列了432億，有幾個推動重點，包括地方經濟活絡，生產環境與生活空間的改善，同時也珍惜社區文化和知識創新，更重要的是我們導入公私協力的夥伴關係，來促進整個農村發展。過去三期計畫裡面，從農村培根、農村產業輔導一直到整個年度再生計畫的執行，成果非常豐碩，包括很多的社區參與，也核定一千多個農再社區，同時將社區裡面的這些好物上架到各個平臺。","第二個部分，就委員所提的版本在這邊提出說明，張嘉郡委員、丁學忠委員等19人提案版本總共修正兩條，修正第二條及第七條，第二條部分是將「行政院農業委員會」改為「農業部」，因為我們改制的關係，這個部分我們會做這樣的修正。第七條部分，最主要是將原來在條例裡面設置的1,500億經費提高到3,600億，這個部分是張嘉郡委員的提案。至於邱議瑩委員及楊瓊瓔委員的版本，這兩個版本大致相似，我們併同說明，最主要的修正是在第七條，從原來的1,500億提高到4,500億，經過修正以後在20年內分年編列，在條例裡面有特別強調政府逐年編列預算來撥入。現行版本的第七條是比較籠統，我們在修正版本有特別提到，農村再生必須要有全國性農村再生總體計畫之擬訂、審核及執行，有了全國農村再生總體計畫以後，各縣市政府再依據這樣的農村再生總體計畫，在年度上去檢討農再計畫的執行，所以有全國性的，也有縣市級的農村再生計畫的擬訂。整個計畫裡面也更明定相關計畫必須在其土地利用、農宅、生活、生產、生態、文化及景觀空間規劃裡面去做適當的配置和支出，提供整建獎勵等相關措施，等於是把目前農再基金比較含糊的空間更具體化，這個是第七條的修正部分。","第十五條部分也是特別強調中央主管機關應依農村再生政策方針，就國土計畫、土地利用以及因應氣候變遷，一定要訂定全國農村再生總體計畫，再依據這個全國性農村再生總體計畫，各直轄縣市應依這樣的指導原則，就生產環境與農村景觀引進農村轉型發展事業所需，指定相關的地點及實施範圍，並維護整個生產環境的完整性，在固定時間有擴大其農村建築需求者，可以併同前項計畫通盤檢討改善，這是第七條及第十五條的草案說明。","本部立場有幾個說明，第一個，第二條部分因應組織改造，我們的機關名稱由「行政院農業委員會」修正為「農業部」，這個部分本部同意修正。至於修正草案第七條，不同版本上修農村再生基金設置規模至3,600億或4,500億，本部意見最主要是依據財政紀律法第五條及第七條，有關所提的法律案增加政府歲出的時候，需要明確指明彌補資金之來源，同時也規範立法機關在制定或修正法律、法規時，不增訂固定經費額度或比率保障。基於財政紀律法，部裡面的立場，我們都知道整個農村計畫相關的經費是支持農村發展重要的經費來源，這些經費來源農業部一定會循我們的行政程序去向行政院爭取以後編足預算。第二個，農再基金1,500億在109年已經撥補完成，至113年2月底我們的基金餘額大概還有497億，接近500億，這個部分也滿足目前113年到116年432億的經費來源，我想也在這邊跟各位委員提出。","修正草案第七條主要是調整農村再生總體計畫的規劃，擴增基金用途，增加農業活化調適轉型場域，這個部分也符合現在農村再生條例的推動方向，而且我們也已經積極地在進行，本條文使整個農村再生條例更為明確化表列，本部並沒有其他意見。第十五條增訂全國農村再生總體計畫之擬足部分，相關條文調整農村規劃體系，從公國性作為再調整到發展社區機制及指導作業機制，這個機制對於以後我們農村再生計畫的執行會更為有利，所以本部也敬表同意。","最後，我想跟各位委員報告，其實農村除負擔糧食生產的重要功能，也包括環境維護、生態棲地、文化價值的發展，透過農村空間規劃，引導農村公共建設，強化社區機能，同時跨域整合達成資源互補，打造以人為中心的宜居、宜業、宜遊的幸福農村，是農業部一個很重要的政策，相信也是委員一直想要共同來推動的。以上報告。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。","現場有3位委員。請問各位同仁，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤？（無）好，我們議事錄確認。","接下來我們請國發會高副主委做報告。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：主席、各位委員、各位在座的先進，大家早安。農村再生條例的主責單位為農業部，國發會受邀列席，我們有兩點說明，針對農村再生條例第二條、第七條跟第十五條修正草案，我們尊重主責部會農業部的意見，剛才部長也有充分說明。第二點要報告的就是，國發會在今年2月，我們的委員會奉行政院交付，已經通過農村再生實施計畫，計畫期間是113年到116年，總計畫經費是432.2億元，目前農村再生基金到113年2月的剩餘基金還有497億元，仍足以支應。以上說明。"],["主席：非常感謝。","行政院主計總處有書面報告，這部分我們請委員自行參閱，並刊登公報。"],["行政院主計總處書面資料：","「農村再生條例第二條、第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」書面報告","主席、各位委員女士、先生，大家好：","今天應邀列席第11屆第1會期貴委員會第12次全體委員會議，對於「農村再生條例第二條、第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」提出報告，至感榮幸。以下謹就條文修正草案涉及本總處部分，簡要說明如下：","一、各委員所提第7條修正草案版本：","(一)提高農村再生基金設置金額：由現行1,500億元提高為3,600億元或4,500億元，增加2,100億元或3,000億元。","(二)調整預算編列年限：由現行本條例施行後十年內分年編列預算，調整為本條例修正後十年內或二十年內分年編列預算。","二、本總處意見：","(一)臺灣農村為糧食生產基地及國土永續之希望，惟長期缺乏有計畫及系統性之協助，農業部為突破此一困境，前制定農村再生條例，並於99年8月4日公布施行，明定設置1,500億元之農村再生基金，以專款專用方式辦理農村基礎生產條件及生活機能改善等，俾有秩序、有計畫地推動農村活化再生，提升農村整體發展，達成建設富麗新農村之目標。","(二)農業部為落實執行農村再生條例所定條文，業於109年度編足撥充農村再生基金所需之1,500億元，並自101年度起，依據農村遭遇問題、各界建議及已過期間執行成果等滾動檢討，制定各期農村再生實施計畫推動相關措施，經該部多年精進、系統性之規劃及執行，至今於營造農村區域亮點、整合農村產業跨域發展及培育農村再生人才等，均已有顯著成效，並獲各界支持及肯定，爰農村再生已為該部主要施政項目之一。","(三)鑒於政府資源有限，為提高資源配置效益，爰財政紀律法第7條規定，各級政府及立法機關制（訂）定法律、法規或自治法規時，不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障，以免影響政府統籌運用資源能力，無法彈性因應政經環境及國家發展需要，予以調整年度施政重點。茲以農業部為因應我國農業面臨氣候變遷加劇、國際情勢變化等，待推動之農業施政項目眾多，本次修正提高固定經費額度將使政府資源安排僵固，恐難以及時面對內外部環境之挑戰，彈性調整預算配置。","(四)綜上，為求政府資源能達合理有效之分配及運用，各機關預算之籌編係採先有計畫後有預算之原則辦理，即年度預算應依據計畫編列。現行農業部為推動農村再生，係遵循上開原則，訂定農村再生實施計畫後，每年再依據農村在地發展實際需要，滾動檢討執行方式及經費需求，於農村再生基金編列預算辦理，爰倘該基金原定之1,500億元皆已用罄，政府亦將視業務推動實際需要給予經費支持，除能持續提升農村環境與競爭力，打造宜居、宜業、宜遊之農村外，尚能符合財政紀律法之立法精神，爰建議維持現行條例規定。","以上報告，敬請各位委員女士、先生惠予指教。祝福大家健康快樂，萬事如意。謝謝！"],["主席：本日議程討論事項合併詢答。委員詢答前，依慣例主席台做幾項宣告：各位委員發言的時間，本委員會6分鐘，必要時加1分鐘；非本委員會4分鐘；上午11點截止發言登記。","首先我們請第1位的林岱樺委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.24471875,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.792843750000003,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.14409375,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.01346875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.51784375,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.81534375,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.52409375000002,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.70096875000002,"end":195.62909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":9.34,"text":"我們提案說明再請張嘉俊委員謝謝主席"},{"start":11.86,"end":29.234,"text":"我們都知道,農村在過去數十年來逐漸勢微,那現在年輕人寧願到都市打工,送FoodPanda、UberEat也不願意留在農村務農。但是政府明年又要推動新的國土計畫法,讓農村再也難以變更。"},{"start":32.916,"end":45.6,"text":"2011年農村再生條例執行之後那其實當初提案的時候是1200億當時本席包括我們的楊瓊瓔主席也是大力的支持要從1200億增加到1500億那沒想到經過了這麼多年我們又來到了就是已經花完了這筆錢也希望說讓農村能夠真正翻轉命運讓農村再生計畫能夠繼續推動因為呢"},{"start":62.425,"end":82.621,"text":"農村再生計畫也是未來能夠順利推動國土計畫法的一環。農再條例通過之後,全國的各縣市致力於帶動農業產業發展,包括雲林作為農業大縣,更是積極地投入於農村社區之再生營造。"},{"start":85.143,"end":99.436,"text":"在農村再生的計畫支持之下進行農村景觀美化維護農村重要生態以及打造地方特色產業文化逐步提升農村的居住與人文品質活絡在地的經濟活動"},{"start":103.3,"end":106.722,"text":"那十餘年來雲林總共合訂了2001個案那在雲林縣449個社區當中已經有305個社區參與培根計畫150個社區完成培根計畫課程之後已經合訂農村再生計畫取得農村再生社區的身份"},{"start":128.776,"end":149.846,"text":"這是目前全台灣農村再生最多的縣市這也是本席當初推動農村計劃法通過之後每一村每一村的下去做說明會那時候我記得說明會說明了100多村才得到這樣子的結果那在偏鄉呢"},{"start":151.584,"end":168.323,"text":"就是在偏鄉與都市的資源不均衡的現況之下農再基金是農村培育人力與在地產業發展的一個重要資源然而十餘年來基金的經費已經幾乎用完"},{"start":168.803,"end":192.741,"text":"因此本席提案修改《農再條例第七條》擴增基金規模由1500億增為3600億並於十年內分年編列預算以幫助農業縣市農村發展翻轉農村的形象讓更多的年輕人願意耕留農村謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f3aa422fed441e48881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45896eb5d0265167f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:03:46 - 09:06:37","影片長度":"00:02:51","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-15","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":171,"end_time":"2024-05-15T09:06:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-15T09:03:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":61,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時3分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人有鑑於國際環境丕變和極端氣候的新形勢影響，以致臺灣農村面臨永續發展的挑戰，而且農村再生基金實施到目前為止也即將用罄，會影響到農村再生發展區計畫，為了要推動農村更新、社區公約以及農村韌性發展等政策，所以我們提出了農村再生條例第七條以及第十五條條文修正草案，以接軌國土計畫新治理制度的全面實施，來加速推動農村的轉型與發展，強化極端氣候的農村調適能力，也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門大家來支持！","因為我們知道，政府對於農村發展地區，過去的政策核心都是集中於農業、農地以及農民的照顧這三個部分。農村發展在政策上經常會被忽略，以至於城鄉發展的失衡問題越來越嚴峻，轉型發展困難。我們看到從民國108年完成臺灣永續發展目標研議，到109年頒訂國土計畫法，並將於114年要全面來落實施行，雖然目前的國土計畫法似乎還會再延，但是我們一定要未雨綢繆，這個非常重要。","有鑑於此，農業部必須要負擔起國土功能分區中，農業發展地區的永續發展治理權，研議並執行農業地區之永續發展規劃跟政策，其中農四地區，也就是臺灣最主要的農村地區範圍，迫切需要建構一個農村整體性的永續發展規劃跟政策的制度，來強化因應全球氣候暖化以及環境變遷的制度適應能力，才能夠接軌未來所謂的國土計畫法、新國土治理制度的變革。所以我們非常的希望能夠以實際行動來支持我們的農民，真正的有政策性、整體性的規劃，也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門大家來支持，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：我們再請張嘉郡委員做提案說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.69284375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.55096875000001,"end":146.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.75909375,"end":169.25346875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.654,"end":1.703,"text":"楊瓊瓔招委來做提案說明"},{"start":4.189,"end":9.591,"text":"謝謝主席、楊瓊瓔發言本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人我們有鑒於環境批辯跟極端氣候的新型影響導致臺灣農村面臨永續發展的一個挑戰而且農村再生基金實施到目前為止也即將用盡那會影響到農村再生整個發展性的一個計畫那我們為了要推動"},{"start":30.98,"end":34.721,"text":"農村更新社區公約以及農村韌性發展等政策。」所以我們提出了農村再生條例第七條以及第十五條條文修正草案以接軌國土計畫新治理的"},{"start":47.265,"end":71.839,"text":"制度全面實施來加速推動農村的轉型與發展,強化了極端氣候的農村調適能力。」那也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門大家來支持因為我們知道在政府對於農村發展的地區過去的政治核心都是在於農業、農地以及農民的照顧這三個部分"},{"start":74.8,"end":80.085,"text":"發展在政策上經常會被忽略以至於農村鄉發展的失衡問題越來越嚴峻轉型發展困難我們看到從民國108年我們台灣永續發展目標研議"},{"start":90.914,"end":108.442,"text":"到109年本定的國土計劃法再將114年要全面的來落實實施雖然目前的國土計劃法似乎還會再延但是我們一定要未雨綢繆這個是非常重要有鑒於農業部他必須要負擔起國土功能分區那農業發展地區的永續發展的這個治理權延逸"},{"start":119.047,"end":145.558,"text":"執行農業地區永續發展的規劃跟政策,其中農事地區也就是臺灣最主要的農村地區範圍迫切需要建構一個農村整體性的永續發展規劃跟政策的制度來強化因應全球氣候暖化以及環境變遷的制度適應的能力。」"},{"start":146.838,"end":157.164,"text":"才能夠接軌未來所謂的國土計畫新國土治理制度的一個變革所以我們非常的希望能夠實際行動來支持這個我們的農民真正的由政策性整體性的這個規劃也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門大家來支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0650ab805bc20689fad847f93a84224fadc2a0f44cf1b72c59d0dce7f622c2f575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:56:37 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