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3,"text":"還有開議當天,五三一開當天,院長能不能順利上台,這是一個變數。歷年來在黨就會有一些至少不會讓當天能夠準時上台。但我期待大家講好的就當天順利上台,這個時間才有控制。"},{"start":1881.104,"end":1907.69,"text":"遠距過去孫中央院長當選院長的時候曾經為了要道歉以火還有開放美中的問題他十二次沒有辦法上台那一次大家還記得嗎?結果造成最後一次的時候是國民黨丟內臟在那裡等著李鑫什麼都等造成嚴重的衝突"},{"start":1908.47,"end":1921.204,"text":"能夠勉強排除障礙作施政報告。」這個是總共十二次。十二次多久時間呢?至少六個禮拜。"},{"start":1926.489,"end":1939.941,"text":"五、五二、禮拜五沒有,禮拜二再來。所以這些變數是存在的。但是要講這些的時候,我們今天大家黨還天堂說兩話。也就是說濟舊、濟舊十敗嘛,總之行。"},{"start":1945.966,"end":1967.934,"text":"有十次．能夠現在在黨所提出．一個是食安．一個是能力政策．這樣十二次．十二次往回推的話．大概在七月中旬左右．那等下看日理就知道了．那再來就是說．責任不能順利上臺．"},{"start":1970.056,"end":1977.489,"text":"單個像上次一樣單個兩個月一個月那這個都對於我們我們要"},{"start":1979.181,"end":1986.023,"text":"委員會作成決議：於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．"},{"start":2003.53,"end":2010.738,"text":"二、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":2015.53,"end":2033.679,"text":"所謂的統一選行時。NCC在選舉委員會被擋。什麼時候可以審?未定之天。但是呢,可以永遠不審嗎?永遠不審的話,他們就繼續坐在那個位置。這是第一個。統一選行的時候,名單已經送進來了。"},{"start":2036.841,"end":2059.144,"text":"第二個就是說五月底今天是五一六再過半個月的時間總統必須把考試院院長、副院長以及考試委員因為中央秘書長也做過考委這個一定要送進來先使同意權在五月底以前送進來"},{"start":2060.245,"end":2066.347,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":2083.633,"end":2097.81,"text":"那假如說考試院院長、副院長以及考委的行駛從以前在8月底前完成那我們可能在什麼時候來行駛?這個都是對於我們延會多久有一些變數"},{"start":2099.355,"end":2118.96,"text":"或是說這個另外再召開一個單獨的臨時會來處理也可以。當然大家要很清楚的。但是發案以前已經完成。這個是先人體制的問題,我們也沒有不可能會迴避。但是從以前是我們的潛力。我們可以自動放棄嗎?我們可能必須斟酌。"},{"start":2126.659,"end":2152.315,"text":"當然另外有一個七月底會送進來市委院長、副院長以及五個大法官這要做宣判的當然那個比較有時間性他在七月底前一定要送進來當然三個月以前換言之就是說十月底前要審查環境那可能可以消費區可以以後積極來安排"},{"start":2153.476,"end":2182.9,"text":"或是要在這一次必其功與役役一起處理。請各位黨兵以及院長來討論、來斟酌。這幾個變數都是要考慮。否則的話,我們今天只講一個頭尾在什麼地方,不知道。就是所謂延會要延到什麼時候。那是不具任何意義的。謝謝民進黨柯總召發言。接下來我們請問一下還有其他黨人要發言。"},{"start":2184.69,"end":2189.839,"text":"那黃珊珊幹事長請好現在主席我想那個剛剛欸好這樣聽得到"},{"start":2198.849,"end":2203.312,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":2222.245,"end":2226.066,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":2251.951,"end":2277.617,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊幹事長的發言。接下來我們請國民黨副坤吉總召請發言。謝謝院長。我想今天大家的協商本來就是我們盡可能平和理性來處理完成。所以難得看到柯總召今天能夠字正腔圓的把院長所提及的事情我們一樣一樣來仔細討論。"},{"start":2279.403,"end":2296.491,"text":"那剛剛院長已經裁示了五月十三號由新任行政院長五月三十一號新任卓榮泰卓院長上臺做施政報告以這個來推算目前大概有兩個至少兩個以上的專報"},{"start":2299.173,"end":2313.917,"text":"因為這個電業的問題是全國國人都在擔心的問題。這個國家的政策如果再不調整的話這個是很麻煩的。這個全民都要面對破產的危機。那食安的問題更是刻不容緩。所以這兩個部分應該都至少兩個以上的專報"},{"start":2321.759,"end":2342.732,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":2344.096,"end":2368.565,"text":"所以我們現在也回應一下啦,剛剛民眾黨,這個黃珍珊幹事長所提的,我們可能,如果民眾黨也希望在七月中,七月中能夠明確的把時間定出來的話,那我們現在國民黨是不是建議啊,我們暫定七月十六號,延會到七月十六號,"},{"start":2370.572,"end":2390.55,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":2393.752,"end":2399.515,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":2416.301,"end":2430.251,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前："},{"start":2444.941,"end":2458.818,"text":"那至於剛剛柯總召所提到．不管是這個其他人事權的部分．我想也回應一下民眾黨各位有提到．我們那可以開臨時會．臨時會來處理好不好．是不是可以這樣子．請院長採審．好再請柯總召"},{"start":2461.943,"end":2487.03,"text":"我剛才出去接個電話齁那我希望我沒有回周瑜嘛同以前林氏輝在講是不是這樣嘛齁那副總裁也是同以前林氏輝在講齁那暫定七月十六齁當然大家訂七月十六就七月十六齁沒有所謂暫定啦齁因為假如總之你沒有結束的話那你就等於消費期林氏輝再來齁是不是這樣就沒有了嘛齁啊所以"},{"start":2487.89,"end":2515.863,"text":"我現在頭尾定了齁,我們就努力去把它完成。頭尾前沒關係,可以臨時會來處理,都可以談。好,那這樣我們很高興大家都已經回到,都已經計較了。所以剛才算過差不多十倍嘛,十次,總之一輪十次。十次差不多到什麼時候?十次差不多到七月五號,七月五號。"},{"start":2519.522,"end":2524.987,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告。"},{"start":2535.56,"end":2564.273,"text":"副總統,你剛才是幾號?十六號?十六號,大家不要亂說,十六號,我們現在就針對這個事情。好,沒有問題。好,現在十倍,十次嘛。十次差不多的弱點就是在七五號。那我們一流三次嘛。一流三次嘛。一流三次沒有關係,就是食安啦,以及能源政策,還有其他,可能就一流一次嘛。"},{"start":2571.629,"end":2597.866,"text":"一流三次嘛。一流三次嘛。我們都OK。大家交控這樣走,交聘這樣走就好。我們希望一個新的國會是一個很正式、隆重的開始。而且大家去對新的內閣,你去舉任何挑戰,我們都...這個是好事。那是一流一次嘛。那就不管怎麼樣,到時候不要再佔領主義才不能上去,有兩三次就整個報銷了。就這樣OK。"},{"start":2603.159,"end":2623.588,"text":"呃...吳世耀、蘇議長、幹事長你有...要看...孟楷蘇議長要補充嗎?請...這個可以談,現在都可以表達意見,沒問題,馬上就定下來,我們就定下來。順便講,我這順著大家的事講OK就好。我都說了,講好就好。這個就時間算一算就好了。對。對,7月16?"},{"start":2632.745,"end":2641.474,"text":"院長,你怎麼找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到找到"},{"start":2658.217,"end":2658.817,"text":"那這樣國外外交再去安排時間嗎?"},{"start":2690.145,"end":2696.67,"text":"等一下,你們有一些行程,你們商量一下。你們要國會外交,要到大陸去什麼都沒有關係,已經停起來,已經商量一下。我們休息三分鐘。"},{"start":2850.756,"end":2870.632,"text":"各位黨團幹部,現在我們繼續開會。幾位黨團幹部都很踴躍發言,也表達了自己的寶貴意見。我們這一次院會的時間,如果遵循大家共同的意見之後,我們就訂休會時間,訂在七月十六號。好不好?好。"},{"start":2872.406,"end":2883.383,"text":"如果訂下來的話我就特別我把決定事項我口述一遍請大家來共同一起聆聽一下"},{"start":2884.91,"end":2905.794,"text":"決定事項：各黨團同意於五月三十一號星期五邀請新任行政院院長率同各部會首長列席進行施政方針報告並備質詢。報告後隨即進行政黨質詢。當日質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派三位,民進黨黨團推派三位,台灣民眾黨黨團推派一位進行。質詢順序一,民進黨黨團,國民黨黨團,"},{"start":2913.775,"end":2917.45,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團之順序輪流交叉方式進行。」"},{"start":2919.44,"end":2948.601,"text":"施政方針個人諮詢之登記請於五月二十四日星期五起至六月七日星期五止辦理有關諮詢期間之順序及人數均依例授權議事處辦理當次會議不處理臨時提案二、本次第一會期延至一百一十三年七月十六號星期二至"},{"start":2950.018,"end":2974.321,"text":"請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見?院長,對不起請柯總召請議五月二十四日禮拜五起至六月七日禮拜五之"},{"start":2976.209,"end":2976.83,"text":"這個是兩個禮拜,辦理個人資訊。"},{"start":2991.414,"end":3009.014,"text":"因為剛開始的時候我們會先進行政黨諮詢。對。政黨諮詢的第一天是五月三十一日。對。三、三、一。然後之後就巡禮進行政黨諮詢的第二天。就第二個工作天的禮拜二嘛。那以前的經驗政黨諮詢可能需要四到五個工作日。"},{"start":3009.514,"end":3034.044,"text":"然後接下來就會個人諮詢,那我們登記的截止日是之前從五月二十四開始登記,因為登記到你五三一之後的這個六月七日,就是按照內政這樣來諮詢。總諮詢還是一整天可以去安排個人諮詢嘛,對不對,大家要登記嘛,到六月七號嘛,那截止,我們還在,那我請問一下總諮詢,我們政黨諮詢差不多要幾天?"},{"start":3040.351,"end":3068.563,"text":"過去經驗是四到五個工作日所以你五、三、一開始的話算出來就是大概在六月在那個地方結束因為我們前面登記黨就是內政組就會先所以會到差不多六月十四號"},{"start":3070.438,"end":3096.104,"text":"或是六月十一號才會政黨諮詢結束,才會進入個人諮詢。啊你個人諮詢在六月七號,那時候還在政黨諮詢啊。所以你來得及啊。對,來得及啊。六月七號截止來得及啊。正常的話,差不多四個、四次啊。四百、兩千百嘛。那個再洗啦。對不對?好,那...可以啊。這個..."},{"start":3099.121,"end":3101.706,"text":"中國國民黨黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":3216.872,"end":3228.063,"text":"在這邊跟黨團幹部報告一下,我要更正一下上一次開超級協商,我講楊瓊英當過國大代表,經查沒有。是陳雪生跟羅明才特別在這裡更正一下。"},{"start":3230.306,"end":3250.468,"text":"還有賴世寶,對我講過賴世寶,對還有邱益穎李昆澤,對所以特別,他現在不在院裡面。要更正一下,好。"},{"start":3251.918,"end":3266.878,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部。現在我們進入討論事項第二案。那我們繼續研商國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告．請公決案。國民黨黨團提議。三、"},{"start":3272.823,"end":3295.799,"text":"任行政院長施政方針報告前．邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告．並依法回應立法委員所提出問題．請公決案相關事宜。經本院第一會席．第十三次會議決議。現在這兩案,上一次朝野協商大概時間、政黨分配都已經差不多討論完畢。"},{"start":3300.001,"end":3314.709,"text":"答覆、詢答方式．那請各位黨團幹部就這個方．就這個詢答方式．表出具體的意見。謝謝。請提案委員再次說明,好嗎?好,那麼我們請提案委員．我們國民黨團請副總召再次說明。因應這個"},{"start":3324,"end":3344.459,"text":"從過去國民大會的行政慣例,總統每一年都會到國民大會來做相關的國情報告,並被不了解的地方所提出的問題來回答,讓整個國家的運作能夠"},{"start":3346.072,"end":3355.299,"text":"各個層面讓國人能夠更加的瞭解,也讓這些代表民意的這些國大代表能夠一些建言能夠讓總統聽到。」"},{"start":3357.338,"end":3379.295,"text":"那自從這個國民大會並入這個正式結束以後現在我們單一國會就是在立法院而總統到國會來做國情報告也相對的有延宕了一段時間都沒有正式來進行所以國民黨是很誠懇的希望面對"},{"start":3380.68,"end":3402.51,"text":"二、二零二四的新民意所成立的國會．希望賴清德總統當選人能夠在五二零就職以後能夠優先的來到立法院來做國情報告並被相關這些問題也能為大家事宜解惑。"},{"start":3406.152,"end":3429.287,"text":"這個過程當中我們要再三表達我們是國民黨是有高度的善意也希望有國會的尊嚴有一定的格局本黨一再強調未來總統在大選前就一再表示如果他有機會當選中華民國總統的話他很希望到立法院來做國情的報告"},{"start":3430.663,"end":3445.437,"text":"那我想今天既然賴總統有這個高度的意願那我們也很願意成就這個事情讓賴總統能夠在歷史能夠有一個非常清楚的高度跟定位"},{"start":3446.558,"end":3471.006,"text":"來到國會．國民黨很願意來搭橋．也希望這個事能夠圓滿來完成．至於什麼樣的安排跟形式．我們沒有強烈的去要求．"},{"start":3473.359,"end":3497.931,"text":"但是最基本我們想賴總統回到這個立法院來是真的是回娘家這是第一第二我們過去也看到這李登輝總統在這個國民大會的時候在大家提案的過程當中說明的過程當中表示意見的過程當中"},{"start":3500.419,"end":3524.226,"text":"這個李登輝前副總統就常常會在主動要求跟主席要求他現在就想要回答所以有的時候是不是我們不要在這裡太過太過的拘泥要什麼樣的一個形式因為畢竟賴總統來自於立法院也當過台南市的市長也當過行政院的院長"},{"start":3526.384,"end":3544.242,"text":"對於我相信對於這個民意代表所提出來的相關的問題我想他來侃侃而談都不是什麼太大的問題而且來到立法院國民黨絕對以禮相待我們非常清楚表達我們也希望共同來寫歷史這高度是留給賴清德總統我們國民黨"},{"start":3547.267,"end":3563.952,"text":"跟其他政黨的委員是一百一十三分之一共同來見證而已。」所以我們要再三強調國民黨一再釋出高度的善意我們也希望說今天有一個明確的對國內有一個明確的一個答覆。謝謝國民黨團副坤吉總召的說明接下來我們請台灣民眾黨說明"},{"start":3566.808,"end":3582.06,"text":"謝謝主席。我想這個台灣民眾黨的案子非常的清楚,也就是說希望能夠邀請賴清德總統到立法院進行國情報告,然後依法回應立法委員提出的問題。那現行法還沒有修正之前,立法院"},{"start":3582.62,"end":3604.273,"text":"立法院的職權行事法規定的很清楚,就是我們希望說立法委員在國情報告完畢後的舊報告不明確處提出問題。那發言的時間順序都已經按照上一次的協商已經有做出決定了。那現在只是說舊委員發言有一條叫做經總統同意時的綜合在座補充報告。"},{"start":3604.913,"end":3629.782,"text":"也就是說我相信其實重點是總統同不同意什麼樣的方式那方式的部分我認為目前為止不管是上一次也好或這次也好其實大家都希望說因為目前是協商出二十位的委員那如果二十位委員一次同問同答這樣子對總統來說也是很大的負擔而且對相關的問題能不能夠以一個努力的清楚的回應我覺得也會是個困難"},{"start":3630.462,"end":3631.983,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":3651.276,"end":3671.663,"text":"問題上面能夠有個共識：我覺得這次是中華民國民主史上很重要的一次的總統有史以來第一次到立法院來做國情報告那各黨團也都高度的共識我覺得這是一件好事所以民眾黨的立場是希望說同問同答只是一個形式那對總統來說我也相信他同意"},{"start":3673.443,"end":3688.468,"text":"會來國情報告的時候：我也相信他願意同意回應每一個委員的問題。」這個我也認為說我們也不用自己先預設總統會不會同意。那以上我們希望說能夠盡快把這個事情做成決定那這也是中華民國民主史上很重要的一頁。謝謝。"},{"start":3690.489,"end":3709.743,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊幹事長的發言。我再把上一次我們抄一些相關於總統國情報告達成共識的三點,快速念一遍。第一個,發言時間每位委員限時六分鐘。第二個,發言次數,國民黨九位,民眾黨九位,台灣民眾黨兩位。第三,發言的次序是民眾黨第一,"},{"start":3710.443,"end":3720.715,"text":"第二次序是民進黨．第三是國民黨．那尋答的方式．剛才國民黨黨團．以及台灣民眾黨團．的代表都講得非常的清楚。接下來請民進黨黨團吳思堯幹事長請。"},{"start":3726.825,"end":3741.611,"text":"謝謝院長。我想經過我們週一的大家共同的協商交換意見,那回去都是讓大家好好再重新思考檢視條文所賦予的意義,還有參著各黨代表所發言背後的爭議。"},{"start":3743.052,"end":3763.369,"text":"那我自己也花了時間就在這幾天我特別又回去把美國最近的一次總統的國情報告是二零二四三月八號拜登總統的國情報告他的國情咨文我從頭又看了一次那美國總統制的狀況是他報告完之後全場起立鼓掌然後總統就離席"},{"start":3764.21,"end":3784.31,"text":"那我也回頭去看台灣1997修憲之後採取的半總統制、雙首長制的法國憲政的原理。我也去看了法國國情咨文報告。我看的是2017年7月3號馬克宏的國情咨文。那他也是報告完之後,那全場大家起立鼓掌,然後他離開。"},{"start":3785.492,"end":3797.905,"text":"但在法國的憲法十八條第二項是有說國會議員是可以在總統國情咨文結束之後進行辯論的但是為了要去慣行憲法所賦予的雙手掌制下的總統他並不對國會負責"},{"start":3800.367,"end":3824.694,"text":"所以即使國會議員要進行辯論或是表決辯論都必須在總統立場不在場為之所以我特別再把法國跟美國的制度重新再透過我不斷的再去檢視那也再次強化我自己對於條文的理解那首先我想要回應一下其實剛剛不管是副總召也好或是黃珊珊副總召所說的"},{"start":3825.814,"end":3838.728,"text":"其實當然我們都感受到在野黨的善意大家願意做這個事情在好好的溝通這是搭建起一個很好的憲政慣例的契機但是我是有一點這個思維上先跟大家分享一下有時候我們在討論的是憲政層次的問題所以"},{"start":3842.079,"end":3856.902,"text":"大家應當要試著去跳脫因人設置的這種思維。」我所謂因人設置是因為大家都感受到不管是感受到賴清德個人他表達他願意來這是他的friendly"},{"start":3857.583,"end":3876.241,"text":"以及剛剛副總召所說的賴清德過去承認是我們立法院的同事所以他回娘家他也很熟悉這個立法院的運作所以是以這個人因為賴清德他可能對立法院夠熟悉那他個人也釋出了善意所以似乎尋答是可以的"},{"start":3877.096,"end":3895.471,"text":"或者是去推敲說,他就可以來接受這樣子的詢問跟挑戰。但我想要回到就是說,行憲、憲法的規定是不要去假設他是誰,他是一個制度嘛。所以說未來也有可能產出的總統,他不是來自於國會經驗的。"},{"start":3896.952,"end":3919.627,"text":"所以制度是一個重要的不能是因為人他擁有什麼樣的經驗所以去試想這個制度可以怎麼設計所以我們再回到憲法的本文本文的第四條第三項很清楚的是立法院與每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告第一個報告出現了那相關的就是職權行使法第二章之一所以第十五條之一"},{"start":3920.928,"end":3936.481,"text":"有寫,第十五條之一,就是依《中華民國憲法增修條文》立法院德語每年集會時聽取總統國情報告,報告第一次出現。這是《自詮刑事法》的十五條之一,報告兩個字的第一次出現。第十五條之二的第一項,"},{"start":3938.042,"end":3964.11,"text":"立法院得經全體立委四分之以上提議．院會決議後由程序委員會排定議程就國家安全大戰方針聽取總統國情報告。報告這兩字第二次出現這是十五條之二的第一項十五條之二的第二項總統就其職權相關之國家大戰方針得知請立法院同意後赴立法院進行國情報告這是第二次出現的報告就在同一條的第二項"},{"start":3965.35,"end":3984.052,"text":"然後再來十五條之三就略過因為有立法院聽取國情報告前三日要送書面報告所以報告報告又出現了兩次十五條之四立法委員與總統國情報告完畢後得就報告不明明了之處提出問題其發言的吧啦吧啦吧有黨團協商決定"},{"start":3985.834,"end":4001.584,"text":"而最後一項就前向委員之發言經總統同意時得綜合再進行補充報告所以這當中我們看到從憲法本文再到職權行使法的四個條文出現了好幾次的都是報告"},{"start":4002.725,"end":4029.51,"text":"所以為什麼在修法跟憲政的援引．它的文字修正非常清楚．而且謹慎的是用報告兩個字為之．而從頭到尾沒有出現尋答．答覆這些事情．即便是職權行使法的第十五條之四的最後一項．第二項．就是金總統動議時德政對委員的發言進行綜合報告．它也是報告的形式"},{"start":4030.35,"end":4057.028,"text":"所以我在這裡我是要當然我也要替中嘉賓委員爭取一下他是不是等一下能夠有補充說明的機會那如果他沒有獲得補充說明的機會我想我代為他再簡單說明一下其實在場除了嘉賓委員過去擔任國代邱毅寅委員曾經擔任國大我自己在一九九七年我就是國民大會黨團民進黨團的助理所以我也曾經在國民大會裡頭去見證過李登輝前總統的國情報告的"},{"start":4060.23,"end":4064.772,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":4079.52,"end":4104.736,"text":"那中嘉賓委員他的論述很清楚我是真的很想替他爭取他自己講會比我替他講來講得更清楚因為嘉賓委員他去回溯幾次修憲之後回應到我剛剛說的條文落在條文他還是以報告兩字為之也就是李前總統僅曾於最後結束前再進行一次總結發言就是行憲的實例嘛"},{"start":4106.657,"end":4129.723,"text":"實踐憲法精神之下發生的狀況。所以,未來若有總統在應邀赴國情報告到立院之時,賴清德總統他所負有的義務應當不能超出李前總統當年在國民大會之範圍,也就是委員可以提問之後,總統是在最終他得以決定選擇他要不要來進行一個總結發言。」"},{"start":4133.524,"end":4154.85,"text":"我希望我的說法沒有溢出我對於憲政的理解還有當初呃李登輝前總統國情報告的這整個實例所以我從第一個我們在旅行創造一個憲政慣例我們要跳脫因人設置的那個想像啊因為賴清德當過立委啊他變才無愛啊他都可以來答詢no憲法的規定是什麼總統不對國會不負責"},{"start":4158.493,"end":4176.555,"text":"對於國會負責接受詢答的是行政院長。所以不能因人設置,我們要創造合憲的憲政管理。第二個,就憲法本文到職權行使法的四個條文,它出現的文字都是報告兩個字,從來沒有答詢、回答"},{"start":4177.136,"end":4200.989,"text":"的這個文字。這個在我們在作為立法委員對於每一個修法的立法原意我們都會去推敲而且會去研究他過去為什麼這樣落款。文字的定義非常清楚所以他是報告。第三個在搭配過去行線的經驗李登輝前總統所運行的國民大會的報告他是最終進行一個總和發言所以我在親自的表明"},{"start":4201.988,"end":4205.712,"text":"這我們要創造憲政慣例總統他不是對國會負責的他不是接受詢問之後QA Q&A不是這樣的所以綜合即便是最終總統可以決定他要或不要進行綜合總結的發言"},{"start":4220.886,"end":4245.01,"text":"這個我們一定要抓得非常精準。我們在創造憲政管理,不要溢出憲法的規範,還有實際運行的一個實際經驗。我再一次爭取讓中嘉賓法制委員會的召委今天能夠在場發言,他是過去有經驗的丹。秋毅委員也是。好,謝謝。謝謝柯建銘,對不起,柯建銘總召先舉手,侯孟凱委員請稍等。謝謝,好,請。院長,各位女玩同仁,"},{"start":4250.612,"end":4278.448,"text":"我們上次發了三個半鐘頭在談總統國情報告其實有點像在開憲法法庭兩兆不同的意見在憲法法庭那剛才吳教偉提到中加兵委員他以及邱穎薇曾經做過國打那我們把從整個邏輯來看待就是說曾經李登輝總統的時候曾經做過修憲"},{"start":4279.915,"end":4288.789,"text":"那第一次修憲是一九九一年嘛我應該好國大好一九九一年修憲那修憲是什麼就是說總統由國大選舉"},{"start":4291.21,"end":4315.21,"text":"國大選總統,然後國大可以有修憲的潛力。這個是1991年。1992年第二次修憲的時候往總統要執選的方向。總統要執選的時候,那國大剩下什麼潛力呢?國大剩下就是一些司法考試監察的同意錢。"},{"start":4316.365,"end":4336.4,"text":"現在單一國會前進回到我們這一代。」這是整個這樣的一個演變。但是換了這個的時候,李登輝還是在整個憲法上面還是保留了這個就是說,聽起國情報告並檢討國事,提供建言。"},{"start":4337.561,"end":4361.859,"text":"換句話說,讓這些國民黨黨國代表．雖然他是已經盡力銷路,總統要直選了。所以呢,他還是保留給他這個統一選舉的心思．乃至於提起國事．檢討國事提供建言,這樣一個管道。但是,你總統去了七次。"},{"start":4363.861,"end":4383.898,"text":"其實以後那都是政府會打沒有存在所謂的積分之難那二零零五年第七次修憲就在立法院等於前七年標誌那大家都很清楚那整個全部完全改變了那在第七次修憲的時候完畢以後也廢了國大"},{"start":4386.5,"end":4392.924,"text":"所以整個那次修憲的時候,希望整個第四條,希望沒有總統得來做國情報告。但沒有辦法馬關於計畫並檢討國事提供建議,不見了。因為總統不是有,總統是明顯的。"},{"start":4409.441,"end":4428.927,"text":"國大選總統,總統當然要被國大來負責。」所以我們現在回到一個很重要的憲政體制上面來談,我是這樣覺得比較有意義。因為說我們要同時要看待整個修憲的過程的演變。整個台灣憲政體制是這樣發展而來。那以前金融大案也很大。"},{"start":4429.929,"end":4454.028,"text":"因為竟然還會行使從以前的時代也曾經有所以今天我們回到這裡的時候議會還已經變成單一國會了單一國會當然我們也開始修憲了那整個憲法設計上是什麼呢?憲法寫得很清楚行政院是第53條行政院是國家最高行政機關是不是這樣?"},{"start":4456.519,"end":4468.343,"text":"那從三條到六十一條就要講行政院他有編列預算的權力然後因為通過以後上來給立法院審查所以這預算權屬於這個行政權和立法權是有分割的"},{"start":4471.823,"end":4482.95,"text":"那憲法有根據很清楚就是說62條叫75條有關於立法院委員的職權尤其63條寫得很清楚立法院是在預決法律案、預算案、憲章過後條例案等等這個是憲法給我們的權利所以立法委員的權利是什麼這是根據很清楚"},{"start":4499.921,"end":4522.676,"text":"然後我們回到先往曾經的條文。曾經的條文。曾經的條文裡面第二條,總統之前到底寫在哪裡?大家找總統到底在做什麼?那先往本文就總統是嚴守三星統帥。那總統之前到底怎麼行事?國情還有行政院長對法律案的附屬權都修掉了。"},{"start":4524.07,"end":4537.8,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前．一、研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方�"},{"start":4538.399,"end":4559.136,"text":"所以總統的權益就是對國家安全的大增防針所以我們要解釋說國防兩岸外交這屬於總統的權益因為他從第二次成立中央協議對國家安全的大增防針那並要並要同時涉中共底下涉國安會"},{"start":4560.597,"end":4578.412,"text":"還有國安局。這是過去國安三法的時代,就是這樣。所以這很清楚,總統的職權就是國家的安全重大事項。這寫很清楚。那香港中國條文第三條寫什麼?總統是明顯的嘛,他是對選民負責的。"},{"start":4581.523,"end":4610.342,"text":"總統不是對立法院負責．行政院對立法院負責．這個很清楚．這個邏輯應該說得下來．楊建立對立法院負責．所以其中有執政條件第三條寫得很清楚．就是說總統指定行政院長總統派來立法院做施政方針並備詢．所以有剛才我們講的總執行．部會首長當然到委會要備詢．立法院第三條就寫得很清楚"},{"start":4611.464,"end":4618.962,"text":"那立法院有執行之前．立法院有執行該進行．所以這權益分立非常清楚．誰對誰．一個人對一個人"},{"start":4621.237,"end":4623.8,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":4643.66,"end":4656.028,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院院長施政方針報告前�"},{"start":4658.237,"end":4685.003,"text":"等一等,我再把這個邏輯講清楚。院長,我不講清楚,大家天天在鬧。很清楚,所以還在倒戈。所以今天我們再回到這整個邏輯框架上,在新聞記事上來談這個事情的時候,剛才黃昌山委員談的就是說,那就有關於這個同問同答嘛。就一黨團問完,另外一個黨團回答。在設計上是,"},{"start":4687.795,"end":4715.525,"text":"總統不是對立法院來負責,說是要來做國情報告而已,不是來給你執行、給你問的。當然,你有不清楚事項的時候,提出問題的話,他有絕對的主動權,我會幫你回答你,這是他的潛力。所以,剛才黃昌峰委員所談的,我相信你也是歷史出身的,統一黨統一黨就是背向的極文極大。"},{"start":4717.245,"end":4743.037,"text":"因為總統並不是給你執行用的,不是給你執行用的。那這一點我們先釐清啦。我說我們再一直談下去,或許談三個半分鐘。接下來我們談一個問題。那這個問題當然每次講他就講的好像在掀示一個東西,但是我不知道他重點在掀示什麼。我們都知道總統來這個是一個先人管理任務,立法院先開始等等。但是他只講一句話就是說,"},{"start":4745.559,"end":4758.448,"text":"我只要講錯請副委員你再你說你不經意任何形式好沒有安排及形式上沒有強烈要求這講什麼意思"},{"start":4759.878,"end":4777.309,"text":"安排及行事上．這代表你要在合憲底下讓總統來報告以後,讓總統得進行他的憲法上的前例。可是上次我們經常叫黎欽"},{"start":4778.79,"end":4792.819,"text":"三次侯孟凱以及柯文綺委員都談過相關問題。三個人問完再回答一次。三個人回答再回答一次。有三次總統的回答。這是一個變相的執行。"},{"start":4794.881,"end":4815.726,"text":"那侯文凱的意見講說這是臺北國會議頭案,來問問他都不記得,國會議頭案是運動大事。請問,我們先把設計總統室來給立法院執行了嗎?當然是行政院長嘛,所以在這個地方大家要把觀念講清楚才有可以往下走下去,不然一直繞下去,以上就是我所談的。"},{"start":4816.986,"end":4827.579,"text":"可是你贊成哪一種?還沒講。已經有核限性啊。就是說他來。我知道,核限性之外,我們具體,你到現在還沒有講喔?沒關係沒關係。我講的核限性就是說,一總統來,來做國民報告以後,"},{"start":4832.364,"end":4849.576,"text":"那你有問題問他,他得嘛,這個他要...對,他再要不要回答是他的事情,這是他潛力,因為這是他潛力。你講的是在三安盟要跟三安盟回答,跟三安盟要跟三安盟回答,那這個不一樣嘛。團進團出也是一樣嘛。"},{"start":4852.137,"end":4863.205,"text":"你不要講其他委員怎麼想,就你個人怎麼想。我個人講得很清楚啊,就是要做核限性,就是核限性。那落實在具體的總統國情報告完畢之後。等一下,總統得來做國情報告,他可以持續要求來,我們請他來都可以。對,認他來的對不對,他做國情報告。"},{"start":4872.512,"end":4875.795,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":4888.805,"end":4912.121,"text":"我要同時說黃珊珊講得非常清楚,她有兩種方式,第一個當然就是綜合回答,第二個她想以政黨來回答,但是副官其中的面目,副官其中的。院長你現在講,你一直抄話,我把她完整的,我怕你在抄話,把她完整的描述清楚,她說一個政黨完畢,總統要回答,三個政黨完畢,第二個政黨回答。"},{"start":4913.562,"end":4919.35,"text":"一個政黨完畢就回答,一個政黨完畢就回答,只有三次回答的機會,這就是變相的急問急答好不好。"},{"start":4920.404,"end":4942.712,"text":"不能接受。這麼清楚吧。要說柯總長就是說黃珊珊幹事長所提的這兩個方案您都不接受。那他只有提議這個方案嗎?沒有,兩個啊。一個是綜合答覆,另外一個是根據政黨依序答覆。這個要講清楚,你要哪一個?這不是大家要包白啦。我們黨上長包來包去都不要。一個答案就是怎麼樣?"},{"start":4943.612,"end":4956.834,"text":"他提出來他也他就是拋磚引玉嘛他說我這兩個方向看副國民黨總召一說完全高度尊重賴清德總統只要在形式上完全合乎憲法國民黨總召有最大的善意"},{"start":4958.324,"end":4959.105,"text":"現在請侯孟楷書記長請發言"},{"start":4979.11,"end":4997.869,"text":"感謝院長從頭到尾到今天我們討論第一個案的時候我們釋出最大善意我們願意在不管是施政報告行政院長施政報告跟延會的事宜我們都採取最寬容的態度來配合大家因為我們希望今天既然有五個案子"},{"start":4999.25,"end":5015.987,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院"},{"start":5021.673,"end":5025.136,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":5046.354,"end":5060.55,"text":"邀請總統來作國情報告。」所以這個是在我們的提案裡面都有寫到。也因此我們剛剛也已經在立案的時候施出最大善意。我們認為行政院長可以在五月三十一號來做施政總報告。那"},{"start":5061.331,"end":5086.722,"text":"我們也算過在五月三十一號之前有三次的院會時間分別是五月二十一五月二十四跟五月二十八我們也希望各黨團等一下不要再糾結就像上一次禮拜一的時候的朝野協商說一定要行政院長先總統後或是因為我們兩個提案其實都寫得非常清楚就是總統先在行政院長後再者"},{"start":5088.513,"end":5116.429,"text":"再者我想剛剛講到的我們如果說都要用憲法的語言文字之前媒體有報導所謂即問即答同問同答一問一答等等這個是方便各民眾大家的一個想法跟理解但如果說今天我們就事論事如同剛剛這個民進黨團的代表都講得很清楚那刑法憲法的這個規定的話那我們就用憲法規定"},{"start":5119.006,"end":5144.407,"text":"憲法規定我們得邀請總統來做國情報告而立委職權新施法裡面我們立法委員可以提出問題總統就立法委員提出問題的發言總統同意之後得做補充報告換言之一個的權利是提出問題另外一個的權利是報告但是他報告要不要針對這個問題不一定"},{"start":5148.02,"end":5173.672,"text":"確實,憲法裡面沒有規定,憲法或是立委職權行事法,總統講報告的時候沒有一定規定說要針對問題,可是這是對人民報告,這是對人民負責。如果說今天立法委員他在提出問題的時候,沒有針對總統負責的外交國防兩岸等相關國家重要方向的話,那我們立法委員失職。"},{"start":5175.376,"end":5192.811,"text":"所以我們有六分鐘的時間我們對我們自己負責那一樣我們得邀請總統詢問他同不同意來針對提出的問題做補充報告的時候總統有兩個權利第一總統的權利是他可以同意或他可以不同意"},{"start":5193.872,"end":5218.407,"text":"我們現在不需要因為在場沒有一個位是總統我們不需要幫賴清德總統決定說他要不要同意或他要不要不同意我們只提出說不管是之前我們林思敏委員有提到的因為這一次有二十位委員都可以有發言的機會所以是不是以二十位來講四位提出問題一次我們就詢問禮貌的詢問總統你要不要補充報告總統可以不同意總統也可以同意"},{"start":5224.338,"end":5249.323,"text":"這個是總統的權責所以我們不用去受限總統總統如果不想要面對剛剛總統如果覺得說前四位委員講的問題不屑一顧不想回答他也有他的權利說不回答但我相信賴清德準總統他應該不會那再者就回歸到說他報告的時候是不是所謂民進黨團的代表講的是回答其實不是啊為什麼"},{"start":5251.516,"end":5273.411,"text":"提問的人有提問的時間但是我們沒有限制總統回答的方向以及限制回答的時間這就是最大的不同總統是報告他是補充報告所以說他不是他不是尋答他不是在我們的問題的時候他來做尋答他補充報告的時候他的內容是什麼沒有人給他限制"},{"start":5274.272,"end":5289.945,"text":"他可以針對委員提出來的問題做補充報告他也可以不針對委員提出來問題補充報告因為沒有一個人有辦法左右他的一個報告但是我們給予依照相關的法令給予他的權利讓他去做補充報告"},{"start":5290.746,"end":5307.571,"text":"所以這就很明顯了。絕對不存在所謂剛剛講的統問統答就是變相的即問即答。這完全不是事實。這一個描述完全是錯誤的。再來我們現在提出來的方案也都是合乎憲法以及合乎立院職權行使法。"},{"start":5308.391,"end":5334.662,"text":"所以,終結一下,我們現在有幾個部分。國民黨團上一次林思明委員這邊有提到,不管是四位問完,詢問總統要不要補充報告,或是五位問完,詢問總統要不要補充報告。那總統原則上他有四次或五次的機會是可以針對或是不針對提問,但是他有機會做補充報告。"},{"start":5335.814,"end":5355.747,"text":"我覺得今天我們要討論的是一個方式我們不要設限賴清德準總統他願意或不願意或是賴清德準總統他回答的內容我覺得如果任何一個人因為你要去除非民進黨團的代表跟我們講這是賴清德總統的意思"},{"start":5358.798,"end":5369.524,"text":"反而,如果說我們今天大家坐在這邊,我們都依照憲法,依照立院極權行事法跟我們的權利,然後我們還自我設限的話,那我覺得我們沒有對人民交代啊。好,謝謝洪孟凱書記長。接下來我們請莊瑞雄幹事長請發言。"},{"start":5381.042,"end":5409.611,"text":"國民黨的協商代表這個在談到憲法的時候這個叫做跳痛為什麼說跳痛這邏輯就錯誤了為什麼說邏輯錯誤總統想到立法院來他不是想來就可以來他第一個他想來我說賴清德很想來他要先知請立法院同意第一個他想來他不一定可以來第二個"},{"start":5411.144,"end":5433.213,"text":"立法院想要總統來．我們事分之一提案．願會作決議以後．到程序委員會去排時間．排了．他就一定來嗎．也未必。為什麼會．我們憲法是講說．總統的聽取．立法委員得聽取總統的國情報告．然後又沒有去科與他義務．為什麼會這樣．"},{"start":5435.974,"end":5461.003,"text":"就是總統他不是立法院的監督機關也就是說一般講的行政院他當然要對立法院來負責天經地義嘛那我們憲法的設計啊偏偏啊不是這樣設計不是說我總統我來想來對所謂的國民黨所講的民意來負責所以我要來NO立法院同意你才可以來不是你想來就可以來"},{"start":5462.293,"end":5467.096,"text":"立法院去作成決議以後．總統是不是一定有義務要來．那也未必。」憲法如果我的解釋沒錯的話這個就是民進黨的態度這第一個那第二個我們就討論完了"},{"start":5477.613,"end":5501.919,"text":"時間六分鐘．人數．順序這都討論完了。」討論這個有沒有意義?有啊!有意義啊!我們上個禮拜還講說我們是往前跨出一步啦!可是我本來是不想講話的,你們又在談說憲法的規定,如果真的要談憲法的規定的話,好啦!那就變成說,總統報告完以後呢,有不清楚的地方,大家上立法委員去詢問,詢問完,總統得去做補充報告,好啦!"},{"start":5505.74,"end":5514.487,"text":"我們去做決議：總統也不知道你們要問什麼啊。我們先決議說,好囉,我幫你做決議。決議算盲算了,不管是各政黨輪流來答覆,或者說同問同答來答覆。我們也太早幫他做決定。所以我的認為就是說,有善意的時候其實都是可以有默契啦。都是可以有默契啦。可是你去把這邊把它做成決定的話,"},{"start":5534.164,"end":5538.248,"text":"很抱歉,實在是,你說真的要去合乎憲法的一個規定啊。我都不認為他有合乎憲法的一個規定。這只是說,如果真的願意,大家都有善意啦,有默契,其實就談得下去啊。阿你不是,我看你這樣吼,今天如果我們來邀請的吼,"},{"start":5554.192,"end":5568.548,"text":"我看今天國民黨這樣的一個邀請的一個方式,就從大家從徵修條文,從整個法律的一個修正,到這兩三次的一個攻防過程裡面,其實我真的還沒有看到那個善意。"},{"start":5569.935,"end":5595.402,"text":"所以莊瑞雄幹事長提的一個比較大膽一點的大家有沒有聽出來這意思是說我們時間定好了一個人六分鐘然後人數也定好了992政黨次序也定好了民眾黨、民進黨、國內黨照莊瑞雄幹事長所提出來是一個非常大膽的他的意思是說全部都問完之後賴清德總統做最後的決定"},{"start":5596.65,"end":5618.653,"text":"按照憲法進行,他可以通通不答覆,謝謝大家,就走了。」這個也是一種,也就是莊惠雄幹事長他點出這個要點出來,而不是我們過去三次朝野協商,我們一直孜孜不倦地在追求說我們希望怎麼樣問他怎麼打,我們三四個人他三四個打,或者我們政黨為代表他來打。莊惠雄的代表,莊惠雄委員的意思就是說,"},{"start":5619.574,"end":5646.27,"text":"我們就不要再去過問這一塊了。完全尊重賴清德總統。」那這個應該...我嘗試...我嘗試...因為莊惠雄那個委員啊...對不起啊,叫董事長,對不起,叫錯了。莊惠雄委員的意思是跳脫那個了。那這一點我想請林思明副局長請。是。我想院長、各位委員。其實我想..."},{"start":5647.851,"end":5673.328,"text":"我們立法院得聽取總統的國情報告．我們在憲法徵修條文寫得非常清楚。這是立法院的權利啊。對不對?你同意嗎?但是要怎麼進行?是不是我們就在我們的立法委員職權行使法從十五條之一就做出相關很明確的規定。把說我們什麼時候要建啊都把寫得非常清楚。"},{"start":5674.309,"end":5678.53,"text":"委員會作成決議．請公決案。」相關事宜。．國民黨黨團提議．請公決案。」相關事宜。．國民黨黨團提議．請公決案。」相關事宜。．國民黨黨團提議．請公決案。」相關事宜。．國民黨黨團提議．請公決案。」"},{"start":5694.599,"end":5719.239,"text":"他不能拒絕因為你在十五條之二寫得非常清楚十五條之三就總統應在我們邀請之後三天內他就要提出書面包寫應喔所以總統只要我們已經經過決議邀請他來他就一定要來就是一定要來嘛否則我們要講應嘛所以我先跟大家來做第一個說明第二個"},{"start":5720.339,"end":5748.266,"text":"到底總統來之後我們要怎麼樣來進行這個提問這在十五條之事就寫得非常清楚了嘛這無庸置疑還要去做解讀至於說到底他來做報告因為我們可以有提問的權利嘛這也講得很清楚了那提問的次序人數什麼都講得很清楚那他來我們問了之後他是要做補充報告還是說他要怎麼回答"},{"start":5748.826,"end":5777.271,"text":"但是沒有做很明確的說總統要怎麼樣去行使他的一個報告權、補充報告的一個方式沒有講。那這部分我想我們總召或者孟凱或者黃三山副總召講得很清楚啊。尊重總統他的一個他要怎麼樣來做回答做或者做報告的一個方式。我們很open啊。所以你們這不會一直把我們解讀說我們就是一定要要求他做回答。"},{"start":5777.611,"end":5779.772,"text":"沒有這樣的意思。我要特別澄清。謝謝。我發言"},{"start":5805.011,"end":5822.723,"text":"任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商"},{"start":5834.724,"end":5855.271,"text":"那今天民進黨團三位幹部所提出的他可來可不來我要比較好奇的詢問一下這是柯總召個人的意思呢還是賴總統的意思呢"},{"start":5856.567,"end":5883.039,"text":"因為賴總統是對全國國人表示他希望當選以後有機會到立法院來做國情的報告所以這個部分如果柯總召要取代賴清德總統來幫他做決定甚至剛才也表示說他不一定要來當然如果是這樣"},{"start":5884.574,"end":5912.504,"text":"科總統權力有這麼大,我們也尊重啦。」第二,對於這個憲法所明確的表達來做國情報告以後,總統到國會做國情報告以後,我們這些立法委員有對其中不了解之處"},{"start":5913.803,"end":5939.742,"text":"提出問題。」那今天聽起來也是民進黨黨團表達賴總統可答可不答所以說今天到立法院來國情報告完我們把所有的問題都講完以後然後"},{"start":5942.489,"end":5970.444,"text":"他也可以回答然後也可以掉頭就走聽起來像是民進黨提出這樣的一個方式我想民主國家剛剛有提到的其實是他講完了就走並沒有我們憲法上說的不明白的地方我們提問之後提問之後"},{"start":5972.898,"end":6000.473,"text":"然後就相關的部分總統是不是能夠解或是疑畢竟那就是回應民意所以我在這裡要特別強調一件事情我相信賴總統是希望來立法院做國情報告的我也相信賴總統應該是尊重立法院"},{"start":6002.992,"end":6030.459,"text":"相關的看法來做國情的報告。」所以我還是要再請教一下今天我們剛剛討論到現在民進黨不斷提出的方式是不是就如同柯總召講的這就是賴清德總統他的想法如果確定是賴清德總統他的想法"},{"start":6032.213,"end":6036.034,"text":"我想這個事宜會比較清楚。」好不好?"},{"start":6061.524,"end":6069.994,"text":"那個稍微等一下好不好,對不起啊,嘉賓兄最對不起,柯總長請請。"},{"start":6073.559,"end":6097.556,"text":"其實我們有一個題目一直沒有談清楚啦當然現在一談又糊掉了超越協商的代表到底是法案預算所是三個人嗎這過去沒有這樣的規定這一點請尊重過去的所以這一題一直沒有談清楚嘉賓他議員來這裡做終究上次差點被請出去啦那現在這樣也枯燥了坦白講的話"},{"start":6099.757,"end":6125.048,"text":"大家保持參議,對於委員基本的禮貌,當國大代表,我剛才跟你講過應該請到法院,所以再徵詢,問題總召上次是同意,黃總召是競表不同意,我們再問看看好不好,出口吧。我們休息三分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":6697.213,"end":6702.415,"text":"好各位黨團幹部現在我們繼續開會接下來我們請民進黨黨團柯建民總召簡短發言請謝謝到目前為止"},{"start":6713.553,"end":6727.885,"text":"我們都在一個非常理性的尾道上在談事情。那院長也從你這麼大小我也了解。我只要對於國情報告我再做綜合回答普通報告。"},{"start":6728.846,"end":6743.622,"text":"然後大家還不下去,我們就放旁邊好不好?因為這個潮流想起一雞還沒到嘛。接下去就是說,現在兩個議程嘛,發動快以及發動高嘛,上次也談很久了。"},{"start":6744.583,"end":6768.326,"text":"黨媒應該就是說假如明天要處理的話還誠懇建議我們整個議事程序這個完整化他會向大家獻明幾個法案明天要議場的時候做這兩個條文的表決反正這個早表決晚表決未來四年的結果都是如此啊都是一定一定會延嘛"},{"start":6769.867,"end":6788.243,"text":"那至少這個建行的民主程序大家都走完。我們不希望,我們不希望說沒有討論就直接表決,也沒有結論就直接表決。三、四年來從來沒有如此。那剛才也跟院長講,跟副總要談了。那我等一下講共同的結論的話。"},{"start":6790.543,"end":6817.265,"text":"我們就明天可以是不去搭風干戈那剩下的直接稀釋完很多還沒談的我們繼續要談很多條文那以後接下來談反正反正我們立法院的結果我們承認我們過去30年來沒有贏過沒有關係但是至少民主能夠在這裡呈現"},{"start":6818.703,"end":6838.489,"text":"所以院長假如這樣的話,他等下證明他同意,我們就很理性的明天也不會衝突,該表決就表決,其中其中要簽完,能不能大家在宴會上發言,結束以後我們叫陳熙來。至少這是一個很重要的民主的最後防線好不好。"},{"start":6844.376,"end":6848.78,"text":"國民黨黨團．建請院會作成決議．提出國情報告．提出國情報告．提出國情報告"},{"start":6858.208,"end":6884.569,"text":"我們已經經過三次操議協商討論總統的國情報告顯然大家已經把所有自己心中的想法看法意見也都合板拖出來了那我們今天因為寶貴的時間交通部部長已經列席跟國家發展委員會高副主委各位官員列席的也是第三次了所以我們今天就把總統國情的那個報告這個這個案子呢我們再留待下次協商我們今天開始進入第四案院長"},{"start":6885.31,"end":6907.579,"text":"等一下,我補充報告,補充報告結束以後,要放下,要往下走,要往下走。我針對剛才,我還是理性的觀念,沒有,您是不是講說立法院有潛力叫總統來,又不是這樣。憲法徵收條文第四條寫得很清楚,立法院每年集會的時候,得喔!"},{"start":6909.141,"end":6915.153,"text":"民眾黨黨團提議．新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":6917.813,"end":6944.78,"text":"立法院．每年集會時．定期。」不是說我叫你來一定要來,這是我們的權利。那我們的諮詢信息法怎麼寫呢?也是一樣,書條之一,也是寫的一樣。立法院得於每年集會時,聽起國情報告,就是如此,就是得。所以並沒有立法院,然後接下來書條之二就是說,總統可以來諮詢,我想來做國情報告,就去管道。"},{"start":6945.64,"end":6955.384,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長"},{"start":6973.602,"end":6989.818,"text":"等一下等一下,院長等一下喔。不是啦,讓我講完嘛,大家紅樓開會嘛。我把它做成補充報告而已啦。就剛才各黨所言嘛,那這個胡孟凱談了,"},{"start":6993.174,"end":7009.063,"text":"我們上次是講說總統不必先來,執行長先來。他今天又回到說總統要先來,而且指定要講出時間五二一、五二四、五二八。所以你的講法和上次是不一樣。"},{"start":7010.003,"end":7036.151,"text":"意思是說,總統你要先來,我期間給你找好了。是五二一、五二四、五二八。然後我們剛才談的五三一四,就請新院長來。所以大家不要耍詭計啦。每次講的話都不一樣,雖然講得很清楚。好,那這個是第一點,問何孟楷。二十個人,你講說,四個問完的時候,請問他,總統你要不要?"},{"start":7040.092,"end":7064.794,"text":"而又要回答。沒有這一回事情啊。這時候有點變相,造成政治衝突啊。你們四人只要回答一次,總共回答五次。這個是變相的急問急答。等一下我把他的真點先講出來,留在下一次協商我們才能夠談得清楚。但是侯孟海講到一句話,"},{"start":7066.924,"end":7081.004,"text":"他說總統是來做補充報告而已不是執行的報告就是報告執行就是執行總統來做國情報告就是報告因為執行好不好聽那你要"},{"start":7083.717,"end":7096.669,"text":"不要設限。．副分局一直質問我的一回事情。講說話事很關門台灣。你柯總召的意思還賴清德的意思。"},{"start":7097.645,"end":7126.393,"text":"而上次教育講清楚,賴總統在選舉的時候就講得很清楚,是合法合憲他一定來。這個當然是如此啦。所以我對於今天所談的這些問題,包括民眾黨的問題,說一個黨問完再回答,再一個黨問完,這些都變相的請問幾檔,要變相的執行。總統不對,立法院負責。總統只派行政院長來做,立法院做私人報告,對大家負責。"},{"start":7127.895,"end":7134.793,"text":"所以要報告就是報告,執行就是執行,是兩碼子事,這是憲政原則設計,如此清楚而已。"},{"start":7136.475,"end":7162.63,"text":"謝謝柯總召那現在我們這個第一案關於第一案邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告我們留待下次協商接下來我們繼續討論第四案環島高速鐵路建設特別條例花東快速公路建設特別條例草案請國民黨黨團提出說明提案請說是哪一個先啊請國民黨先環島環島高鐵先"},{"start":7172.128,"end":7180.499,"text":"從民國八十八年台灣高鐵動工到九十五年完工通車以後,這個台灣"},{"start":7182.133,"end":7209.431,"text":"整個南北的距離不但縮短．也讓整個國家的．各方面的動力．還有經濟實力大幅的提升．就如同當年．這個經國先生十大建設．來推動了這個．中山高速國務以後．讓台灣能夠整體的退變．成為亞洲的四小龍之首龍頭．國家的一些重大的建設．"},{"start":7212.233,"end":7236.616,"text":"本來就應該積極的來推動而台灣高鐵通車以後我們全國台灣島就這麼小三萬六千平方公里那我們這個國土裡面到底有沒有一個均衡的發展有沒有一個最基本的這個人道而人本的原則有沒有基本的一個平權"},{"start":7238.543,"end":7246.605,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":7258.32,"end":7275.493,"text":"是這一次大地震裡面聞風不動．而且成為共同緊急時刻避難的處所。」所以我們也看到零四、零三的大地震整個台灣高鐵安好如初。所以對於整個"},{"start":7277.595,"end":7282.4,"text":"黨黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商"},{"start":7299.799,"end":7323.572,"text":"這個王國才王部長從2021年以後提到環島高鐵不是夢我們有多次在委員會在院會跟歷任的蘇貞昌院長還是陳建仁院長都提到相關的這些問題也特別表達得到蘇貞昌院長跟陳建仁院長都是高度正面的回應我們要特別感謝"},{"start":7326.62,"end":7342.515,"text":"這個韓國瑜韓院長在今年二月初陳建仁院長來拜訪您的時候你也告訴他對台灣有一個重大的一個願望就是國道六號要打通台灣高鐵要環島把它做好"},{"start":7343.576,"end":7370.088,"text":"可能完工的時候大家都不在世上了不過沒有關係我想韓院長你應該這個看起來這個一百歲不會有問題我們一起來做環島高鐵所以我想今天大家都是善意對國土的規劃跟建設我們要積極的推動那對於我要特別聲明當然朝野有不同的看法"},{"start":7371.055,"end":7395.806,"text":"但是這絕對不是十億百億千億兆元的錢坑。」我們一再表達第一個我們同意在各自的協商當中大家所表達的意見我們也對民進黨所提出的相關的看法也非常的尊重所以跟民眾黨討論了以後對民進黨相關的這些指導"},{"start":7400.868,"end":7421.623,"text":"國民黨黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院院"},{"start":7423.801,"end":7439.439,"text":"我們也看過這個整個時間,我們跟民眾黨討論了以後,我們現在暫定是12年的時間,因為我們整個去了解在過程當中,在整個"},{"start":7441.501,"end":7469.422,"text":"台灣高鐵在興建過程當中因為他們中間有一個四年在BOT的這個修法上立法上也花了一對相對的一個時間那基本上現在的工法都比過去還要再更加的進步我想民國八十八年的動工距離現在已經三十三已經有二十幾年多二十五年以上現在的工法也更加的進步當然我們也了解說"},{"start":7471.846,"end":7481.283,"text":"這個王國才部長雖然他今天總辭讓我也謝謝他今天還是能夠出席啊那個王部長"},{"start":7482.386,"end":7500.066,"text":"我是來幫你圓夢,我們在幫你圓夢。這個環島高鐵不是夢,所以我們馬上回應你,也立即來圓夢。我想對於這個宜蘭、花蓮、臺東、屏東的鄉親,被整個中央過去的政策"},{"start":7501.608,"end":7505.652,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":7516.83,"end":7533.139,"text":"國內的BOT、國際的BOT．用更快速的一個方式．我們來推動進行。」那也希望呢．這個執政黨．能夠欣然接受．我們大家一起．一起為台灣加油．能夠讓環島高鐵．能夠盡快的來推動來進行。院長"},{"start":7538.142,"end":7562.029,"text":"好,謝謝蕙琦總召。我們現在跟所有黨團幹部來報告一下今天列席的幾位官員。第一位,我們交通部王部長。國家發展委員會的高副主委。還有其他所列席的官員,財政部、環境部、文化部、原住民委會、法務部、工程委員會、主計處,請大家舉手。好,熱情歡迎。接下來請我們柯建民總召,請。院長。"},{"start":7563.169,"end":7592.148,"text":"我還是要談一個程式性問題當然我非常感謝今天已經是六個總辭了吧總辭了吧所以相關人在後面的一些主管都換來的他們還是能夠來立法院這一點應該得高度肯定代表他們都非常負責只要有有時間的機會能夠對國家做一些貢獻我想他們還是秉持一個很好公務體系上面一個"},{"start":7593.209,"end":7602.215,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":7611.926,"end":7639.064,"text":"有關法．及預算．應該行．那個人數不應該如此限制。剛才我提出說中張英委員、邱穎穎委員曾當過國大代表。很謙虛的今天不跟你吵架、不跟大家吵。過去也從來沒有這種慣例說委員在這裡不能講話的。不能找。委員在這裡不能講話這個大概是破天荒。破天荒。三十年沒有如此。"},{"start":7640.345,"end":7664.005,"text":"那你堅持的就是說：要進行大家同意：有關中山民委員也在公會嗎?或你總召說OK。黃總召還是不同意見。這個我們一直是會繼續用這一刻的。那其實現在我還是談同樣問題。因為高鐵左右四個縣市依然發聯台東、屏東。"},{"start":7666.345,"end":7689.418,"text":"那請問,這個當地的立法委員,要不要來出席?不可以出席嗎?請問他是屏東的啊?屏東旁邊的各項也有關的?我還有經過維林住民,裡面有維林住民條款,維林住民保留區的維林住民...柯總長,我是九雄的。屏東?你屏東人啦?屏東人啦?屏東嘛,那也沒有。"},{"start":7691.92,"end":7707.029,"text":"沒有,他沒有請,他高雄,屏東人,高雄嘛,因為高雄是屏東人。那這個,總理常常是屏東地區,所以現在我們是高雄人,要高雄人,要屏東人。"},{"start":7709.861,"end":7718.585,"text":"民眾黨團．建請院會作成決議．於新民眾黨團．建請院會作成決議．於新民眾黨團．建請院會作成決議。"},{"start":7734.764,"end":7752.669,"text":"我不相信以後包括總預算啊三個黨團的黨兵是萬人的這是委員對專業委員非常的大傷害委員中心主義我們在立法院現在可以抽出計劃圖什麼都委員會不能一審這樣的立法院是我們要的嗎這是我們要的國會嗎黃國昌委員你為什麼競票不同意我就很奇怪"},{"start":7765.19,"end":7792.157,"text":"這個東西是還未定的,我們是不想在這裡吵啊,三什麼啊,不是這樣。這立法院程序能夠在這裡,立法院程序能夠在這裡進行才有用。沒有說是你們要怎麼樣就怎麼樣。所以我今天還是一樣的回到一個問題。像,我們召委來了。召委來不能講話。"},{"start":7793.746,"end":7803.253,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":7811.218,"end":7829.085,"text":"那再回頭過來我要講今天的問題好不好。那現在走剛才副局委員所談的問題。第一個,不管環島高或是發動快以及國道6,我想這都是海運長你是理前提案的。"},{"start":7832.106,"end":7848.412,"text":"所以我們不在這裏才會以前提案造成你角色尷尬另外一般的組織法已經寫得很清楚要議事中立然後這個不管沒有關係我相信你會中立那最後你會講說以後你當然下不為議了好"},{"start":7851.053,"end":7867.378,"text":"我們現在在談這個問題的時候,回到核心,就是一個剛才副委員所提的當然講了一下,那黃國昌委員你們也合併提案,那時候現在不用寄信了,"},{"start":7871.179,"end":7899.057,"text":"首選紀律法。但是呢?錢從哪裡來?錢從哪裡來?當然你講什麼BOT,也不談主權基金,怕會誤解,誤解就是中共一帶一路的主權基金。BOT本來就有條例,這個坦白講,他就為了獎賞條例也立過,BOT條例都立過。以現行法院本來就可以做。"},{"start":7900.097,"end":7922.814,"text":"那是另外一種模式。但是你這裡面有錢,錢從哪裡來,你也談到。由中央政府機關分年編列一策。OK。分期委員都講不出來到底要多少錢啊。那過去曾經,好像快,那曾經在王景勝的時候就提過了,馬英九職員就提過了。"},{"start":7923.908,"end":7935.291,"text":"後來副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、副委員、"},{"start":7954.077,"end":7972.191,"text":"假如沒有的話,我今天講一說違憲,你就非常不高興。但是我可以不講嗎?我可以不講嗎?全力奉獻者,先把五十八條請看一下。行政院編列預算,行政院院會通過以後,送到立法院來預審議。"},{"start":7974.363,"end":7992.271,"text":"19條是年度結束前三個月前要送來：這再清楚不夠就是議事案的編列是屬於行政院的潛力。一、法院是去監督這有主動被動的關係。這樣一個主動被動關係的存在的時候"},{"start":7994.272,"end":8002.639,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。：新任行政院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。"},{"start":8014.358,"end":8042.67,"text":"在這裡我要談的時候就是說我們原始點大家只要沒有辦法共識的話即便要表決我們也可以面對我們也可以面對但是呢要把話講清楚所以我要在這裡講說八大官264、391、362、613人等都寫得很清楚先把七條也寫得很清楚立法院審查不可以做一項增加"},{"start":8043.65,"end":8060.856,"text":"既然你這個是特別條例,那你預算,我說你這個特別條例,你只能掛在那裡了。你反正可以弄個特別條例,要跟那個法律案,要叫行政院自己分領編列,這當然是危險了。"},{"start":8061.909,"end":8082.954,"text":"這是行政前的問題．我們可以提建議．我在這裏重申國家有機會、有權．對於弱力的建設．發動的建設．去投入．我們百分百贊成．國會反對的．反正民進黨執政已經．對於發動．要將近三千億．四萬塊每次在民進黨所動工．我們現在還有十五萬"},{"start":8091.018,"end":8112.273,"text":"幫他改善鐵路交通系統．等下江峰部長會一一談明所以今天回到一個核心問題和剛才一樣三個題目一樣就是憲政原則假如擁有一個立法院．立法委員．我是陶淑苗．我來配那個特別條例來弄個仰詐"},{"start":8115.534,"end":8140.671,"text":"我是屏東的宗家兵和屏東的宗岳雄或是邱怡穎。我們來高屏發展特別條例三照。請問責任政治在哪裡?國家其他政事都不要做了。我們都知道省、印、川都有政事別。因為國防、外交、外環什麼都有。經濟發展都要。"},{"start":8141.92,"end":8151.808,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":8161.903,"end":8170.527,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":8192.116,"end":8217.283,"text":"謝謝院長我如果沒有記錯的話上一次要進行這個協商以前院長有做一個很好的提議說請新的部長來以後我們再來進行那我那時候聽了覺得有道理那我只是先程序上面問就是說因為其實王國才部長很辛苦他也要離開交通部長的位置"},{"start":8218.143,"end":8239.306,"text":"那今天適合針對這個事情進行實質的協商嗎?這個是我提出來程序上的一個問題做請教那至於說到實質上面的問題這個特別條例有沒有必要性編列的內容到底合不合理這當然是接下來實質討論的問題"},{"start":8241.946,"end":8257.66,"text":"但問題是民主進步黨的總召柯建民先生他剛剛提出了一個他自認為所謂憲政上的問題立法委員可以提案然後用特別條例來框預算嗎讓我覺得困惑的事情是在2005年10月5號的時候陳水扁執政"},{"start":8269.127,"end":8296.657,"text":"有40位立法委員共同提案石門水庫及其集水區整治特別條例就是用這個特別條例匡列的預算當初是40名立法委員提案在這個特別條例裡面處理的方式還是用特別預算的方式做這不是行政部門提的這是立法委員提的那裡面40名的立委我看"},{"start":8297.796,"end":8323.871,"text":"不僅僅是國民黨的立委．民主進步黨的立委也參與．大家全部都參與．那讓我開始有一點困惑啊．如果柯建民總召今天講的是對的．是真的．那就讓人無法理解啊．當初民主進步黨陳水扁政府執政的時候．怎麼會允許40個立委．透過特別條例去框特別預算呢．"},{"start":8324.855,"end":8342.027,"text":"政府套用科建民總召現在最喜歡掛在嘴上的。」這不是毀憲亂政嗎?這個毀憲亂政的事情可以做嗎?那也不是只有2005年才這樣做。2016年2月24號所編發的《206政災重建及紓困特別條例》,一樣啊。"},{"start":8350.834,"end":8373.541,"text":"也都是立法委員提案啊。有這個特別條例啊。那這個特別條例也框了特別的預算啊。當然,這一個特別條例所框的預算,這個特別條例最後沒有進入實質的審議啊。但當初這些委員提出這樣子特別條例的時候,我也不記得有任何人說他們毀憲亂政啊。那當然啦,就是說,這裡"},{"start":8379.699,"end":8405.806,"text":"是在進行黨團協商的場合。我向來在黨團協商的時候就各黨團針對他們的法案表示他們的看法跟他們的理由那當然沒有一個人講的是絕對正確的那這個就是一個民主的機制大家進行民主的討論跟審議如果能夠得到共識的話"},{"start":8406.866,"end":8426.699,"text":"我們就得到最大的共識．能夠順利的解決．那如果沒有辦法得到共識的話．那也沒有辦法．因為在黨團協商的這個會場．從來也就不可能去逼迫．打成什麼樣子的共識．那因為這個會牽涉到我們接下來．所剩不多的黨團協商的時間．"},{"start":8429.221,"end":8438.346,"text":"到底要怎麼分配怎麼使用的問題。」所以我才請教一下院長說我們那個我前面所提出來程序上面的事項。謝謝。"},{"start":8440.627,"end":8467.548,"text":"謝謝,特別跟各位黨團同仁報告一下,因為上一次那個王部長、高副主委已經說明他們單位的立場了,非常感謝。那這一次,請叉椅協商來針對這兩個法律案,國民黨跟民眾黨所提的修正動議,我們是針對法案的內容來進行處理,這一點特別跟黃國昭總召來報告一下。那如果黨,沒有關係,各位黨團"},{"start":8468.809,"end":8488.068,"text":"同仁如果同意的話,大家都同意的話,我們也可以請交通部這各位列席的部長們可以先行離開沒關係,我們今天就討論內容,看看各位的意見,因為如果他們已經把他們立場都表達很清楚了。院長等一下齁,沒關係沒關係。我先問一下,如果不同意沒關係。等一下齁,請問一個問題,因為剛剛有..."},{"start":8490.998,"end":8505.466,"text":"你不要急好嗎?現在這些部會首長在這邊,他們立場已經講得很清楚了,我現在徵詢大家的意見,如果大家同意,他們可以離開,如果不同意,他們就繼續待在這裡,好嗎?對不起,請吳思瑤好不好?"},{"start":8506.907,"end":8524.132,"text":"因為我們這是黨、黨團上。院長這是協商為什麼我們不可以發言?這個案子當時是交付到經濟跟交通聯席我是經濟委員會招委為什麼不能發言?我就會議許問這一點就好了。就會議許問這一點就好了嗎?為什麼我不能發言?那照理講如果是這樣子的規矩的話法案的協商應該是主審的委員會的招委才能發言"},{"start":8535.482,"end":8549.782,"text":"沒來參加過法案主條的應該是不可以發言的喔。對不對?院長。我已經當六屆的立委我從來沒有聽過說召委在黨政協商的時候針對法條召委是不可以發言的。我從來沒有聽說過。"},{"start":8552.225,"end":8560.789,"text":"那如果說各位覺得交通部跟國家發展委員會的官員繼續留下來那就可以OK好那我們就麻煩等一下我的問題嗎現在官員已當他都已經已經離職了"},{"start":8567.131,"end":8594.537,"text":"我們都能夠讓他留下來：來表示一些意見：他們很樂意。先任的召委,立法委員不能在這裡。這是什麼邏輯啊?韓委員,你就不要去解。你每次都要競表不同意。剛才那個案子也是一樣。蔡英文要留下來,不行。競表不同意。大家要執求對決啊。要講得清楚。你剛才對我的挑戰,我現在就回答你。"},{"start":8595.95,"end":8615.536,"text":"二、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院長"},{"start":8618.057,"end":8643.85,"text":"運營很嚴重．無處以不欣．所以由當地的立法委員．或是朝委都講說．這個應該要處理．所以在行政部門同意底下．才去弄這個特別條例．是有這個因緣．那時候是這樣的因緣．以後來講的歷史當中都沒有．所以我們要講清楚．你弄一個特別條例．弄幾個特別條例．要兩兆．這個東西還得了．"},{"start":8645.478,"end":8671.708,"text":"是不是這樣?你們現在在做這部魔術。沒有特別條例。特別條例存在,怎麼沒有特別條例?當然是特別預算啦。你說沒有啦,我只是叫你們去編列預算。你強制行政部去編列預算,用法條去編列預算,當然是違反前期婚禮原則。這個施政自明嘛。但是這樣還在那邊詭辯。你是法學博士耶。"},{"start":8673.021,"end":8688.122,"text":"所以今天我們要把很多問題談清楚明天要怎麼表決我們沒有意見但是立場要講清楚沒有所謂的稍微在這裡不能講話新任官員可以留下來這是什麼立法院"},{"start":8690.047,"end":8716.329,"text":"謝謝柯總召我發言。接下來我要針對邱英英委員所提的兩個問題。因為我們本來上一次已經協商過本案環島高鐵是由楊秋英委員召集黨團協商、送這個本案法案及名稱及所有條文均保留,送請院長來召集協商。這是我們今天進入這個條文討論的原始來由。第二,您所提的為什麼召委不能發言的確是一個好問題。"},{"start":8717.29,"end":8731.725,"text":"的確是一個好問題,但是我們前面,前不久的時候曾經各個黨團都徵詢大家的意見,是黨團三長尉當然代表,可是這段時間柯建民總統又很強硬。"},{"start":8733.68,"end":8752.21,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任"},{"start":8753.01,"end":8776.541,"text":"就三黨都同意有召委來．或者跟地區建設有關的．那些委員力、權益有關的．這些委員可以列席．那三黨都同一團可以．另外我主席覺得．要請委員來列席的時候．要經過三個黨團都同意．那這些委員非常歡迎．這是我們暫時妥協的．這是暫時的協議措施．不是永遠這樣的．所以說．從頭到尾到這個問題沒有講清楚．院長你要瞭解你的質問．"},{"start":8781.294,"end":8787.431,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":8791.035,"end":8814.87,"text":"那個國民黨團跟民眾黨團是不是要表達一件如果說進入法案審查的話召集委員以後就列為主席我還是要講一下我覺得這個不合理啦經濟委員會的召委有兩席楊全英委員沒有來那我關心這個案子我來參與然後你不讓我發言你不讓我參加我覺得這個也很奇怪嘛"},{"start":8816.391,"end":8843.316,"text":"每一個召委對於自己的排案委員會裡頭的案子的審查我們都必須要慎重過去立法院是委員會中心主義但是現在的立法院不一樣現在是只要三個人或者是你們兩個黨隨意要抽出禁負二讀就抽出禁負二讀隨意要表決就表決隨意要阻擋法案就阻擋法案"},{"start":8844.642,"end":8849.606,"text":"救人的法案都可以擋,民進黨牌的法案就說是你們國民黨牌的。」"},{"start":8850.842,"end":8876.296,"text":"現在都是如你們的意耶,但是你們有沒有想過啊,立法院一百一十三席委員不是只有你們六個才是立委耶,大家都是立法委員,大家對於法案的關心程度,過去我從來沒有看過一個院長是可以阻止委員會的委員或者是召委參與法案協商不准他講話的,你告訴我是依照哪一條?"},{"start":8877.417,"end":8880.711,"text":"立法委員職權行使法哪一條有這樣規定"},{"start":8884.794,"end":8907.348,"text":"這個不是復世王朝復世王朝所訂下的規範喔復世王朝訂下的規範喔絕對不是喔我當這麼久的立法委員沒有看過像你們這麼阿拔的處理模式協商不是這樣進行的啊好謝謝你的好接下來問其總召請發言"},{"start":8911.603,"end":8940.651,"text":"我想他們兩位表達邱委員列行的事情放這裡請我覺得韓院長真的很委屈在立法院不管是委員會也好主席在主持議事大家都要照主席的主持之下"},{"start":8941.974,"end":8970.094,"text":"立法院的議事規則來進行．要發言都有一定的順序跟程序．在院會也都是一樣．但是唯獨在草野協商．這也是當時民進黨強烈要求．不是山長不可以進來．而且嚴重恐．當場警告黃國昌總召．說你們不要鬧人來喔．要鬧人來大家來鬧喔．所以"},{"start":8971.092,"end":8998.268,"text":"才經由科總召強烈要求之下協商只有黨團上場才能進來不能有其他人進來這個上協商都是有全程錄影的都有全程錄影的經由科總召強烈表達之後民眾黨兩位立委離開會場然後大家進行協商確定以後的遊戲規則就是這樣"},{"start":9000.936,"end":9025.018,"text":"我想我們就要再強調一次,我們既然大家一致作成的決議,我們應該叫做決議總。因為國會,一個國會是要有制度的,我們一直在強調就是制度。我剛剛也很高興聽到有所謂委員會中心主義,委員會中心主義我們真的很感動。"},{"start":9027.212,"end":9045.956,"text":"這個執政黨立委會講出的幾句話出來我上次聽到比較正常的人講話既然是委員會中心主義那為什麼委員會已經討論完環島高鐵委員會沒有討論嗎?大家都清楚的表達了意見所有的詢答都詢答完畢詢答完畢之後"},{"start":9055.373,"end":9080.427,"text":"召委又召集協商。」環島高鐵就是楊瓊英委員召集協商。然後民進黨不到,一席都沒有到。然後經由委員會已經討論完,再經由召委召集協商,然後才建請韓院長來再一次的協商。"},{"start":9082.337,"end":9103.719,"text":"這個程序都非常清楚也非常完備我們不了解說在立法院所有的議程都是錄音錄影我還要喚醒大家的記憶嗎所以我們一直在這裡強調那個主席啊會場要有制度"},{"start":9107.267,"end":9125.849,"text":"哪有在這裡又在人身攻擊又不是山長又跑到這裡做人身攻擊我們現在覺得很奇怪為什麼的國會制度的建立有這麼困難大家都照現行的規則來走嘛沒有規則大家協議好是怎麼樣就照協議走嘛"},{"start":9127.557,"end":9155.124,"text":"有條例照條例,沒有條例照慣例,沒有慣例我們照協商,協商出來,就是這樣,我們要照走嘛。我覺得院長,你要守住,院長,你一定要守住你的制度面,不要因為人家刻意的挑戰而不斷犧牲,而不斷的犧牲遵守規則的人,遵守規則的人是應該要被尊重的。"},{"start":9156.408,"end":9170.869,"text":"那個我麻煩請黃國昌總召。我要當時說以後列席的這些委員法案的這個召集委員本來是第五案下一案才要討論現在被被迫往前提了"},{"start":9171.65,"end":9197.92,"text":"那,我們大概在一個月前的朝野協商,我們曾經講過黨團三長列席,如果要有,呃,召集委員列席的話,經過三個黨團同意,那是不是以後所有類似這種法案也好,預算也好,只要召集委員就變成當然列席代表?我是這個,我們先確定這一點,這一點是非常關鍵的。請黃國昌總召你請表示意見,好嗎?呃,先生院長喔,呃,第一個,"},{"start":9199.4,"end":9224.725,"text":"我先講程序上面的事情其實在這個協商現場我好幾次在程序上面有跟院長報告基於對院長的尊重您在主持會議的過程當中即使在這個過程裡面有一些讓人覺得為什麼有人可以任意的按麥克風發言你都不制止"},{"start":9226.074,"end":9253.871,"text":"讓人沒有辦法接受為什麼有人要守規矩有人可以不用守規矩甚至連你在講話的時候他喜歡按麥克風講話就講話所以我希望能夠再釐清一次我們現在在進行黨團協商的基本規矩是什麼是當別人講話的時候要按麥克風講話都可以甚至你在主持會議的時候"},{"start":9255.649,"end":9284.29,"text":"要按麥克風講話也可以是每一個人都可以還是每一個人都不可以還是只有特定的人可以其他的人不可以對不起喔我要講很嚴肅的事情這一個規則這一個規則可能要請院長告訴所有黨團協商的代表我們應該要遵守的規矩到底是什麼第二個"},{"start":9287.48,"end":9302.612,"text":"黨團協商．時只有黨團的三長可以到場。」這個是當初柯建民站出來抗議他要求的。您做了這樣的才是,我們大家都遵守了。"},{"start":9303.584,"end":9330.412,"text":"我們大家都遵守了。」今天要變更這樣子的規則不是不行就把規則講清楚而且要注意程序上的事為什麼我說要注意程序上的事如果我們今天要建立一個新的規則譬如說法律案的時候法律案的時候那哪一些委員適合再來參加黨團協商例如"},{"start":9331.961,"end":9354.012,"text":"當初這個法案負責主審的召集委員那我們就應該要把這個規則讓那個召集委員知道那否則的話會形成一個很奇怪的狀況我們今天突然又變更了規則那其他可能受這個規則所影響的利害關係人都不知道這樣子的話我覺得對他們"},{"start":9358.599,"end":9380.952,"text":"並不公平。」我的意思是說要變更在這個會期我們一開始說這樣的只有黨團三長可以參加黨團會議要變更這個規則在特定議案的時候譬如說其實您上一次啦我記得院長你在召集黨團協商的時候你也很努力的試圖"},{"start":9382.93,"end":9402.917,"text":"要把這個規則給定出來,譬如說法律案的時候還可以邀請誰來?預算案的時候還可以邀請誰來?我記得很清楚有一次黨團協商的時候你真的很努力的試圖要建立這個規則但是那一次的協商針對這個規則試圖的建立就無疾而終嘛"},{"start":9407.15,"end":9426.554,"text":"就無疾而終．因為你在試圖要建立這個規則尋求大家意見的時候中間不斷的被打斷導致這個規則沒有辦法建立起來所以拉回來談回復您剛剛所垂詢的事情要針對法律案要針對預算案"},{"start":9428.257,"end":9438.366,"text":"除了黨團三長以外還可以邀哪一些委員或哪一些委員他們有意見可以來參與我們都抱持開放的心胸可以來討論"},{"start":9439.993,"end":9463.756,"text":"但這個規則定了以後就應該要讓各個黨團都知道這個遊戲規則而在這個新的遊戲規則下面我們以後的會議才能夠進行要不然我們今天突然在這裡變更了一個新的規則其他的人都不知道只有到場的人知道"},{"start":9464.554,"end":9473.834,"text":"那這樣對於到場沒有到場而沒有受到這個規則變更通知的委員而言恐怕不是很公平以上"},{"start":9475.253,"end":9498.487,"text":"我想把前次要徵詢各位三個黨團的幹部的這個我所草寧的一個協商代表我想再唸一次給大家聽一下我知道大家很急著發言稍微等一下就是預算案協商時國民黨黨團五人民進黨黨團五人台灣民眾黨黨團四人以上人數是包含黨團三長"},{"start":9500.248,"end":9521.18,"text":"第二、至於其他議案．除法案審查報告所列的院會說明人．可參加院長朝野協商外．如果各黨團有增加其他委員參加的必要．經過各黨團都同意．我們就允許增加委員列席參與協商．這是我們在上上次朝野協商"},{"start":9521.98,"end":9537.262,"text":"的時候我嘗試的把它唸出來希望獲得各黨團的同意結果那一天因為開會太零散結果這個案子沒有通過所以我再重新也就是黃國昌總召你剛剛所提出來上一次我嘗試性的通過這個吳世耀委員我知道你舉手好請發言"},{"start":9539.479,"end":9558.187,"text":"院長,我非常非常非常地尊重在場的每一位。吳斯瑤我雖然年紀比較輕,但我的立委資歷沒有比較少。我是三屆的立法委員,我要沉重地跟院長報告。我往往是在您主持的協商會議上舉手舉最久,手舉得最挺,然後您最常略過我。"},{"start":9558.907,"end":9584.137,"text":"今天就好幾次我希望以後不要再這樣好嗎我也是一個立法委員我是民進黨黨團的幹事長不要再刻意的略過我我首先要在此說明第二個我個人是傾向不認同剛剛院長所說的您試圖做的那樣子的一個協商決議我要說院長您真是辛苦跟難為了"},{"start":9586.67,"end":9608.462,"text":"把很簡單的事情被迫要讓它復雜化的去處理．把一個主持協商可以很靈活很彈性的機制．被迫綁得死死的．受制於在場的黨邊們．我不要說是哪幾位黨邊們．主持協商就是院長的權限"},{"start":9609.912,"end":9628.94,"text":"按照過去立法院運作數十年來,從來沒有任何一個院長會在這裡因為有其他的委員列席,要去請問其他的黨編他可以留或可以走,他可以發言或不可以發言,從來沒有發生過。我替韓院長您抱屈啊。」"},{"start":9630.103,"end":9658.164,"text":"所以從剛剛黃國昌總召說如果要新上路一個新的機制要大家同意您的言下之意是說今天為什麼有李昆澤召委跟邱毅寅召委坐在這好像這個制度還沒有講好其他委員不知道所以不公平我要在這裡還原其實在上一次的協商甚至上上次的協商不管是吳思堯、莊瑞雄或是柯建民總長我們都很試圖的去要建立起一個爭取法案或預算協商的時候"},{"start":9658.684,"end":9676.318,"text":"其他相關的委員都能夠列席。我們講了N次只是不被理會、不被重視、不被處理。所以才會限縮在現在韓院長很辛苦的院長的主持的權力真的大大的被弱化了。今天誰在場可以講話或是誰必須離席還要讓院長貴為立法院院長要請問副總召可以嗎?黃總召可以嗎?"},{"start":9685.825,"end":9702.912,"text":"我真的要替韓院長覺得我要替您抱屈啊您有至高無上的國會議長的主持權利啊好講回來剛剛您說的為什麼我並不認同要限縮人員您是用人員的方式在看待未來協商出席的代表"},{"start":9703.852,"end":9720.577,"text":"我們要很彈性跟很負責任的去面對每一個議案。議案是活的。政策是活的。您剛剛的說法就是五個五個四個和預算的那個。那是用人數在看待是一個僵化的制度。我要再次說"},{"start":9722.526,"end":9749.449,"text":"每一個議案關切的立委不同有些議案可能來的委員也不太有人關切坦白說有的議案是大家百家爭鳴基於重要的公共建設如果您開放了像環島高鐵也好今天的花東快速道路也好我相信有非常多的立委部分黨派都想來關心要看議案的本質本身"},{"start":9750.376,"end":9775.932,"text":"所以過去從王金平．從蘇家璇到游錫堃院長主持的協商會長．是大家都能夠充分的Welcome、Open．來接受大家來到這裡參與意見．因為朝野協商由院長主持的朝野協商．就是任何一個議案．想方設法匯聚最終的朝野共識．最重要的場域．而不是過水"},{"start":9780.427,"end":9789.957,"text":"最終表決前的最終政策的辯論需要多元的參與,需要朝野的立委共同來成就。所以我不認同筐死的人數,以後每一個黨團為了五個人,誰可以來誰不可以來,那嫁沒人嫁麻煩。"},{"start":9800.939,"end":9829.249,"text":"所以講回來簡單的事情不要複雜化可以靈活彈性主持意識的權限也不需要自己受制於部分的黨邊而您剛剛所試圖做出來的那個決議是完全不可行我要必須這樣說以我九年多的國會資歷來說那再一次回顧不要凡事都嫁禍給柯建民總召"},{"start":9830.549,"end":9834.453,"text":"什麼時候朝野的委員們都聽柯總召的話嗎?"},{"start":9836.01,"end":9855.584,"text":"科建民總召上一次針對民眾黨在第一次本屆期第一次的朝野協商由陳昭之立委來到現場如果來到現場是好好的就事論事沒有問題Must welcome可是那一天院長您也記憶猶新陳昭之委員來到現場是直接來針對科建民委員總召"},{"start":9861.556,"end":9866.301,"text":"鄉下針對他投錯票的事情來這裡找柯建民總召算賬。」"},{"start":9868.12,"end":9893.814,"text":"那是一個非常失禮、失態、不合宜的來到朝野協商是要來找人算賬所以在那一天的場域柯建民總召才說這種程序性針對那天的議題是要不要排時安專報開議日是哪一天他完全是落在議事運作的程序性的範疇就像剛剛您主持的這個會期要延會到什麼時候"},{"start":9896.249,"end":9905.264,"text":"這種程序性三長來代理。」我想大家是沒有意見的。但是非程序性的就是議案。議案包括法律案、預算案。"},{"start":9906.789,"end":9930.757,"text":"都不應當強制的去受限。」院長真的要懇求您要聽進去,因為這是您的權限。如果限縮了人數、限縮了人員,我想那個真的不利於一個民主多元的國會、協商的討論。好,所以現在在請教程序上,現在是直接進入那個人數的那個協商,對不對?還沒有進入花東快跟高鐵,對不對?"},{"start":9933.018,"end":9955.735,"text":"是不是先進入那個程序．如果花東塊稍後再進入實質．我還有很多的內容要發言．那我的認知是．現在好像已經進入．協調這個協商的出席的代表．如果這樣我們先就這個議題．來彙聚共識。沒有,我們進入．我們已經進入花東塊．這個開始討論了．那現在．那如果這樣我可以繼續．那我可以．那沒關係．那我還沒有發言．"},{"start":9960.538,"end":9983.091,"text":"那我可以拿腳嗎?那環島高我要在這裏發言。謝謝,謝謝院長還有各位家長的學生代表。院長我是這樣看的,朝野協商的時候啊,氣氛不好啊,大家都會想盡一些理由啊,各黨都一樣,這個人性嘛,柯總統講了一句話,也不會"},{"start":9984.639,"end":10005.978,"text":"以後就變成立法院的一個常態。」那動不動呢,就再回復到,阿坤同志你講過三個。其實我那天也跟院長講,當時在講,其實大家講的是在講程序,但各黨有不同的意見,各自去做一個解讀。我以我們過去在當台北市議員的經驗,在朝野協商的時候,"},{"start":10009.372,"end":10036.297,"text":"那個不是只有三張啊每一個人對他地方建設他有關心的他就是可以去啊那協商的當然但在議長尤其你現在是國會議長就是協助嘛都盡可能的就行政部門沒有困難的啊趕快趕快趕快趕快甚至於啊有對行政部門有太多要呃有人凍結有人要刪除的部分看有沒有辦法都盡量啊就大家達成一個和諧調和頂賴嘛啊"},{"start":10040.538,"end":10063.847,"text":"如果說在整個重大預算碰到有凍結．接下來有預算協商．一定很多人要關心地方建設．也許你院長你很希望去幫其他的縣市．把它推一把．不管是各黨不同政黨的人．但是你說讓那些人不能到場．也都很奇怪．我甚至要講．"},{"start":10066.466,"end":10086.743,"text":"當主席的本來就是權力很大你那個叫做刻意尊重但是你那個尊重的效果的結果呢導致就是各黨拿這個來在做攻防沒完沒了啦我真的我就進入實質啊所以我的意思是說院長你那個部分真的要再考慮啦好還沒講我要開始囉要開始就講這個囉"},{"start":10089.053,"end":10102.763,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":10108.607,"end":10112.831,"text":"我們不反對,只是針對你用這樣的一個方式,我們是不贊成的。但是呢,我也要幫楊耀講一下,你也紅兜,你只有煩惱而已,不過你也替楊耀講一下,你以為你的權力那麼大,我們就這樣給他衝一下,煩惱、招損你到澎湖,怎麼又洗回來,這樣全國都有。根本麻煩,對,還有陳學生,那是比較很淡薄的。民眾黨會說那是財政紀律的問題。"},{"start":10136.77,"end":10162.441,"text":"所以我的意思就是說重大建設大家各政黨我們都可以開心的來做但是呢對於提出的一個方式我對這個就有意見了我真的就有意見了比如說啊你任何一個地方政府的議會也不會去決議說啊你那個敬老津貼你這個台北市政府你就要給我一個月花六千台北市議會做這樣的一個決議台北市政府"},{"start":10165.902,"end":10189.278,"text":"不管各黨．哪一個人當市長．他都不會去就範了。」那我們今天又到最後你這個條文裡面我要提出你的最荒謬我最不能認同的地方就是可行性評估到最後立法院來做一個審議我們立法委員哪有這樣的一個工程的一個背景然後你又本來是十年你現在把它弄成說你十二年你要去完成"},{"start":10191.094,"end":10197.339,"text":"這個天啊,我們屏東到現在,我們都已經進入了綜合規劃了。我們也不敢去奢望12年就去完成了。你這個叫做環島,環島。不然我聽到你那個紅花蓮到台東,又到屏東,整個都空了,我聽到是送了,你知道嗎?所以你那個應該改一下。"},{"start":10215.914,"end":10222.277,"text":"這個環島高鐵是從屏東開始移到台東到華聯,但是我還是堅持,逐案去做一個推動,這是國家建設。哪一天我們立法院去決議,我們再來花個二十兆,再來弄一個環海的高鐵,那個更快,做起來更爽,那我們也不叫高鐵,那叫做慈福列車,全國人爽死了,這個如果有這種異想天開的案的話,我們也希望國民黨來支持一下。"},{"start":10244.086,"end":10267.867,"text":"拜選的人就是去監督當選的人．去落實他的政見．而不是拜選的人透過政黨說我們來聯合．我們來幫執政黨來開支票．聽也不要聽過．大家善思啦。謝謝莊學雄委員兩位登記發言委員等一下會依序發言現在我們請秘書小姐來念一下我知道等一下我們"},{"start":10270.632,"end":10281.684,"text":"正式請秘書小姐來念這個環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案修正動議對照表請宣讀法案名稱。法案名稱環島高速鐵路建設條例草案。"},{"start":10286.836,"end":10312.19,"text":"請宣讀第一條。一條,為推動環島高速鐵路建設﹐發展大眾公共運輸﹐平衡區域發展﹐促進觀光產業﹐增進民眾福祉﹐特制定本條例﹐本條例為規定者﹐適用其他法律之規定。好,請柯建民總召發言。好,謝謝。院長,你現在講的話,請大家平心靜靜聽。有一句話叫騙人騙局。"},{"start":10315.086,"end":10318.817,"text":"就做了對面的副總召。他說這個在委員會充分討論。"},{"start":10320.373,"end":10347.978,"text":"只委員會只大一套位移：就新來以後就進入主角,主角是三分鐘出去的。朝野鄉衣服都是,委員會朝野鄉,大家都知道,這個委員會朝野鄉不會有結論的嘛。所以我們沒有去,連黃國昌也沒有去。然後呢,那就往上勾水來,這也要表決。問題,這不是這樣的,你要講實情,不要騙人騙局。至於何孟愷,"},{"start":10350.748,"end":10378.718,"text":"我講話紅白插話我也算了沒有關係我都沒有問題但是呢我要跟黃國昌委員你不要見數不見零你一直迴避核心事項都回答然後一直用程序性問題在講說這個有人插話怎麼樣剛才是我在講話院長把我插話什麼院長講話我把他插話的都有啊你一直在你一直在上面去講話"},{"start":10381.16,"end":10396.47,"text":"請問．請你張開眼睛．凡是這個議場裏面．不是立法委員有多少人．八、九十個人．可以容納不下兩個立法委員．來這裡呈交會議．這什麼邏輯．過去有這樣嗎．你不要．見識不見人．你能夠再騙人．然後你以為你這樣在這裡講的話．所有人都相信你講的話．"},{"start":10407.403,"end":10420.973,"text":"大家要憑良心講話你沒有來過你當過黨編的人你曾經在你2016到2022年的時候朝野協商是蘇貞昌蘇貞昌院長讓你在朝野協商上面撥一個鐘頭給他冒官員把他變成知情撥兩個鐘頭給國民黨"},{"start":10429.406,"end":10455.496,"text":"這是要融為下去。然後你今天要分歧,航線一氣,趕快把這個弄完,弄走過去。既然你講出沒有良心的話,你故意常常在講委會中心主義,要好好混沌。二、因為我回去選舉的時候,你去攻擊我秘書協商,那個制度是誰害的?那個是立法院制度,好像我在做什麼壞事。"},{"start":10456.912,"end":10470.555,"text":"然後說立法院要廢除超越協商,都是你們講的,大家要來辯論今天有談話的空間嗎?今天連理性談話的空間都沒有。你既然坐在這裡做了這個新任理責,黃國昌委員,都不想要你。我們要講真實的話。立法院這裡面,房間裡面,整八九十個人在這裡,立法院不能坐在這裡,不能講話。所以下來之前,"},{"start":10488.154,"end":10491.955,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":10513.934,"end":10542.362,"text":"請找出一次你所看到的查到資料裏面的先進三個人再來跟我講話所以不要這樣詭辯然後都聲中即是閃躲然後用個小點然後再無限放大好像你是正義的使者何來正義使者你要怎麼樣面對你的選民我都沒意見請你面對你的良心請面對你是一個立法委員這比較重要吧"},{"start":10544.657,"end":10550.104,"text":"謝謝,我們請洪孟楷委員發言．林思敏委員請準備．吳世耀委員請準備第二位。說實在,院長您辛苦了。我剛比洪孟楷委員早舉手,李昆澤委員舉很久了耶。"},{"start":10565.365,"end":10574.089,"text":"同樣的立委,幹部沒有比較大,好不好?大家一樣都是立委。大家都互相尊重,我們剛剛舉手舉很久了啊,為什麼院長不讓我們發言呢?大家都互相尊重嘛。我們也是黨團啊。我們也是黨團啊,院長。"},{"start":10586.115,"end":10611.355,"text":"院長,這沒有什麼修正。我警告韓院長。韓院長,您要把自己做大,不要把自己做小了。過去的院長沒有像您做這麼小的。好不好?黃孟卡委員。我先舉手,我先講話好不好?尊重一下。剛剛院長指示民進黨團總召,那現在是不是山長這邊在做發言?那院長已經指示了,我們要尊重院長。"},{"start":10612.631,"end":10618.474,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":10632.762,"end":10660.13,"text":"之前我第十屆進來之後,尤錫堃院長我們也尊重,尤錫堃院長是在發言的時候,只限制三個人可以參加,尤院長也沒有限制只有三個人可以參加,然後你們現在要求韓院長只有三個人可以參加,這個韓院長我希望你能夠把院長這個位置做大,不要把院長做小了,你不要變成富士王朝的韓小弟啊。"},{"start":10661.35,"end":10663.411,"text":"副市王朝的韓小弟：。．副市王朝的韓小弟．。"},{"start":10687.061,"end":10714.114,"text":"中、台、中國用語叫水平,台灣用語叫水準。」誰沒有水平啊,動不動就丟手機,拍桌,副總召好大喔,只有黃國昌會怕啦,我們其他人是沒在怕的啦,只有黃國昌喜歡被你摸摸頭啦。又丟手機了,廣大的公民朋友都看到了,副總召的手機不曉得哪個牌子喔,好耐摔喔。"},{"start":11555.341,"end":11577.782,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部也謝謝各位列席的官員那下一次朝一協商我們發開會通知的時候各位黨團幹部都在這裡我們會直接在針對法案的討論部分我們會直接把這些召集委員的名字列上去也歡迎大家一起來參加用這種方式之後我們就把我們第一次"},{"start":11578.903,"end":11603.002,"text":"整個這個草野協商的標準．以及訂出來那個準則．我們能夠延續下去．下一次開始發草野協商的報告．那個通知書的開會通知的時候．我們就直接把各招委都列進去．作為當然代表好不好我想先因為佛德邱盈跟李委員很著急．也很熱情好不好謝謝現在請柯建民總召我可以稱讚一下韓院長嗎謝謝院長的英明謝謝這樣啦"},{"start":11608.7,"end":11632.494,"text":"我講一個大家要解決問題的方法啦。你來學這種都有原因的啦。你來模仿這是朝野工房一定的。哪一個人講對講錯,這是直播的。選民自由公端好不好。立法院30年來的遊戲規則很清楚。但是我們破完那個遊戲規則的時候,這個衝擊很大。"},{"start":11635.834,"end":11655.36,"text":"有關於這個臺北協商有關法案預算幾個人可以參加,那我們定一個時間專門來討論這個事情。否則的話立法院後面已經開始進入深水區,沒有一個走得動了,沒有走得動。我們把它"},{"start":11656.48,"end":11681.277,"text":"在一個憲政慣例以下行之三十年的事情拿出來討論以前就可以,現在為什麼不可以,要講清楚然後回去過後講清楚我要講的這是立法院一個最後的防線也是韓院長你也很清楚院長你存在就是要維持中立至於兩個法案已經講了兩次了"},{"start":11683.24,"end":11710.717,"text":"再怎麼樣,我們的邏輯性理念,就是在新任體下,前立分立原則底下來看待這個事情。所以有關條文的內容,包括立一個法,立一個特別法,叫行政院去編列一算,這麼眼光裡都是違憲。但是我講違憲,他也不聽得下去,都聽不下去。本案,這兩案,條文甚少。"},{"start":11712.168,"end":11731.621,"text":"都十條以內：我們今天就講清楚因為明天院會要怎麼進行大家心裡有個底沒有陶宇香簽名的東西院會實難進行一定發生史上最大嚴重的衝突這也不樂見我想院長也不樂見"},{"start":11732.782,"end":11759.394,"text":"新的國會大家謀和照這段時間重新謀和的時候也到一個臨界點了必須冷靜下來討論所以我底下繼續建議反正這兩個法案我們已經討論兩次花了相當多的時間我們至少程序把它走完第一條怎麼樣稍微講一下我們還是反對那些保留第二條怎麼保留"},{"start":11761.058,"end":11781.05,"text":"第二法案也是一樣都是走完因為差不多該講的話已經在兩輪裡面都講很清楚了至少這個陳毓新的問題保留以後大家再親稍微想結論明天宴會我們只會處理這兩個案子因為也經過中院的討論"},{"start":11782.691,"end":11791.645,"text":"那就是說換言之就是說我們要簽一個草原協商結論就是三十年來就是如此大於討厭幾個人"},{"start":11793.98,"end":11818.037,"text":"一條沒一條幾個人講好明天就繼續發言發言以後表決反正四年內我們沒有一個表決會贏的我認定這個是事實但是呢要把話講清楚就好了這是我們民主能夠在這裡實現這是我比較得膽的建議大家那今天我要講的就是說"},{"start":11819.642,"end":11844.394,"text":"凡是沒有經過朝野協商：沒有經過院長組織的朝野協商：乃至於院會的發言的成績：在法院裡面：絕對不能破壞：否則我會就死亡了。這是我今天要講的道理。但是呢,我會"},{"start":11846.275,"end":11862.763,"text":"講這些話是今天大家要解決,解決這個問題。假如大家沒有意見的話,我們就開始一條一條來,沒有關係,也不要浪費太多時間。最後,先一個朝野詳情,每一條,所以大一條問幾個人,這才是重點,每一條問幾個人。"},{"start":11864.983,"end":11887.341,"text":"而引用一個案例給大家聽。2016我們執政以後,前面執政。2016我們通過什麼?不當黨產。這是我們衝突喔。不當黨產。相信黃國昌委員也在場。黃國昌委員我不知道你怎麼做理由。那時候在議會怎麼處理?在議會是每一條發言。"},{"start":11889.907,"end":11900.835,"text":"讓國民黨歡迎陰庭表決書,表決就完表決。我們要做這個程序。我們不會因為我們國會過半,全部給一下什麼,紅茶不能來講話。"},{"start":11902.318,"end":11911.008,"text":"二零一七促進轉型生育條例。也是這樣。大家說我罵微信罵來罵去,但是到最後一條一條表決。二零一八的農田水利費收歸國有,亦乎如此。"},{"start":11921.653,"end":11939.261,"text":"二、依舊政政黨案法也是一樣,就是我們國會都是說,但是我們瞭解這個程序要讓每一個人想法講完以後再表決。沒有所謂不協商、不發言,沒有查理商或是因為沒有發言,就進入了一個強制表決,黑正式。"},{"start":11940.061,"end":11949.044,"text":"國民黨團．建請院會作成決議．以新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．以新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．以新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":11969.898,"end":11971.5,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．請公決案。」"},{"start":11986.059,"end":12007.731,"text":"第一個這個本質上我們認為用立法委員提條例然後要求編預算的這個做法確實在權力運作在憲法的運作層次上他是產生了漢格的我們是立法委員一定要依法行政所以我們都很清楚預算的整個制度是什麼預算籌編的權限是行政權"},{"start":12010.973,"end":12016.938,"text":"院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於新院會作成決議：於"},{"start":12035.675,"end":12059.103,"text":"第二個講到實質的層面因為我們是立法委員．法規我一定要請大家我們要依法行政在依預算來編列預算的過程我們不能夠跳過交通的專業跟財務試算他依據的法規是政府公共建設計劃先期作業實施要點這個是所有的重大的建設都需要試用的程序"},{"start":12060.023,"end":12082.822,"text":"第二個法規就是中央政府中程計劃預算編制辦法。這樣一個預算的編制辦法也就是財務的部分一定要能夠遵循。我現在手上拿的這兩個,一個是有關交通建設相關的程序是不能夠略過的。第二個是中長程計劃的預算編轉也有一定的法定期程。"},{"start":12083.582,"end":12100.118,"text":"但是回到今天由副委員所提的這兩個法案都沒有這些程序如果大家願意看一下我今天特別把我能夠收集到的重要的交通建設所有的從可行性評估到綜合規劃到環評的計劃到預算的編轉我試圖拿個基本來給大家看看"},{"start":12107.405,"end":12129.286,"text":"現在在審議環島高鐵請大家可以久過來久過來我手上這一本就是民國七十六年開始針對現在的高鐵所進行的可行性評估這一本是歷史文件我去國會圖書館借的七十六年開始有這本可行性評估之後才會進入綜合規劃就是可行性評估確認yes"},{"start":12130.327,"end":12149.619,"text":"可以做．才開始進入綜合規劃基本設計、細部設計．而我手上的這個．就是我們的現行的高鐵．後續的期末報告、工程建設計畫．還有英文版．因為我們要跟國外的團隊合作．這是英文版。"},{"start":12151.011,"end":12166.52,"text":"這是高鐵我手上這邊還有副委員最關心的花東安全回家的路手上這個是蘇花改的可行性評估通過了可行性評估之後才會有工程規劃的報告書在這裡"},{"start":12169.13,"end":12196.308,"text":"然後他還要有環評的說明書每一本我都把它帶來最近剛通過的蘇花安我們要給花東負責任的安全的交通就是蘇花安的可行性評估通過之後才會有各項的計畫這個是現在剛被通過的蘇花安當然他不能略過的是環評在這邊"},{"start":12199.045,"end":12225.554,"text":"大家可以看看後面的桌上那幾個箱子都是我搬過來的針對現行的高鐵以及蘇花改蘇花安所有的從可行性評估到綜合規劃西部計畫到最後的預算編轉到期末報告我全部都帶過來為什麼這是行政權限因為行政團隊才有這樣的專業"},{"start":12229.025,"end":12232.028,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":12253.666,"end":12261.271,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任"},{"start":12281.958,"end":12304.57,"text":"蘇花快改一改填一填數字改一改從十年改成十二年把特別預算改成公務預算這樣子就可以遂行的這是非常慎重的時刻我們要經得起交通安全專業評估的考驗這才是負責任的給國人最好的建設"},{"start":12305.851,"end":12331.505,"text":"所以我對於等一下的條文我真的都覺得這不是立法權能夠進行的但是我敬佩我們立法委員願意為地方的建設爭取最好最大的可能這是我們的建議權我予以尊重我最後要回應一件事黃國昌總召您剛提的兩個案例我一定要清楚回應"},{"start":12333.123,"end":12357.092,"text":"看待議題政策不能夠去脈絡化,不能夠見數不見零。」黃國昌總召剛剛說,也有過去在兩千零五年有跨黨派的立委,桃園的立委提出石門水庫及水區整治特別條例。為什麼二零零五年可以呢?今年二零二四年復婚期就不可以呢?我來回答您。"},{"start":12358.032,"end":12386.037,"text":"二零零五年的時空背景．是由行政院先行提出沉水扁執政任內．行政院先行提出一個水患治理特別條例．由行政權宣發動了一個特別條例．以及特別預算的編轉．然後為了讓桃園地區的委員們．能夠針對他們關心的石門水庫．特別有一個他們關切的條例．所以是在朝野"},{"start":12387.097,"end":12409.052,"text":"共議同意之下讓委員提這個案但是他是循著行政院的水患治理特別條例而來這是第一個案例所以黃國昌委員您說錯了不要這樣去脈絡化去帶錯的風向第二個您提零二零六政災條例也有立委提案沒有錯臺南的立委關心零二零六的政災重建但是"},{"start":12415.854,"end":12442.334,"text":"委員提案是為了彰顯對於選區的建設重建的重視。這個議案也因為漢革了行政權而且行政院地方政府都可以依據已經上路的災害防救法可以進行所有的震災相關重建的工作。因此零二零六震災條例提案的立委並沒有"},{"start":12445.06,"end":12470.262,"text":"委員會審查,他是一個象徵性。」所以這也會回應到為什麼現在行政院對於零四零三的花蓮的重建是以行政院的方案已經編列高達三千億也已經在執行的方式來進行而不需要特別立法因為九二一之前沒有災害防救法那個時候才進行一個九二一震災的條例的立法"},{"start":12471.062,"end":12492.203,"text":"當我們在九二一之後有了災害防救法的建制所有的政策重建九一災害防救法的體力體制去進行我必須花時間回應這些副總召不好意思那讓您覺得時間可能比較急促好請不要催促我我也是一個立法委員我今天這麼認真的拿了這麼多的資料"},{"start":12494.125,"end":12518.495,"text":"請不要發出怪異的聲音。我拿出這麼多負責任的資料就是要告訴大家我們支持交通建設但是有行政該做的事也有行政才能做好的事立委有立委的職責我們是監督建議權然後讓整個工程有地方民意的匯入但不代表立法權可以取代行政權"},{"start":12519.375,"end":12545.066,"text":"所以請大家看看,立法院有可能進行這樣的交通專業的可行性評估嗎?我們能夠由立委來做環境影響評估嗎?我們可能由立委來做專業的交通的各項規劃嗎?這是行政的權限。我們支持交通建設,但是嚴謹跟法治跟憲法的精神,我們不能憾格,不能愉悅。"},{"start":12550.043,"end":12550.303,"text":"紅木凱委員請準備。"},{"start":12563.697,"end":12581.776,"text":"按照禮拜二程序委員會我們所排定的議程跟議事的順序我剛再確認了一次應該沒有問題我們前三個法案都是跟國會改革相關的法案這個是第一個"},{"start":12586.121,"end":12603.826,"text":"那第二個呢是我還是要再次表達啦就是說上一次您說就這兩個條例的部分等新的部長來我也非常尊重院長的意思我覺得也有道理因為老實說現在大家非常多人"},{"start":12605.205,"end":12627.506,"text":"真的關切的是明天在院會針對國會改革法案的處理。」那這兩個條例的討論是不是要在這個時候進行還是依照您的指示之前的考慮那個考慮我覺得是有道理等新的交通部部長那"},{"start":12630.762,"end":12640.271,"text":"因為明天要處理有關於國會改革的法案所以我覺得我們那個議事規則今天要先確認清楚之前我在黨團協商的時候我確認過經過委員會的協商"},{"start":12653.733,"end":12669.284,"text":"而且過了三十日的寫商冷凍期．就已經進行了立法院職權新司法．裡面鎖定的要件。明天寫商的時候我講得蠻清楚的。第二天我又再度的跟院長"},{"start":12670.718,"end":12682.674,"text":"還有秘書長再度的確認這樣子的議事規則。」那我想我應該沒有誤會兩位當初的意思。因為我不希望"},{"start":12686.36,"end":12704.215,"text":"用程序上面這樣的事由來進行杯葛,導致明天沒有辦法處理國會改革的法案。」我相信這個是大家所不樂見的事情。因此現在"},{"start":12705.778,"end":12730.912,"text":"還是依照您剛剛的指示,我們按照這個順序在進行。」那只不過說我比較懇切的提供一個建議,因為以現在這個時間點來講,我們可能必須要先去確認我剛剛所講的議事規則,明天星期五已經過了協商冷凍期,而且那三個法案也進行了之前的協商,"},{"start":12732.357,"end":12740.073,"text":"因此明天在院會處理是沒有法規上面的障礙。至於贊成或不贊成"},{"start":12741.002,"end":12764.895,"text":"當然大家有不一樣的看法但我要確認的事情是明天在院會處理我們禮拜二程序委員會所表定的前面那三個議案是不存在法規上面的障礙那以上就這個程序性的事項因為非常的重要所以我在想說是不是可以請院長先確認一下院長歡迎"},{"start":12770.943,"end":12774.286,"text":"黨團協商．一個月無法達成共識由院會定期處理。」再一次。"},{"start":12796.838,"end":12798.34,"text":"院會定期處理,就是排程序委員會 院會來做議案討論。」"},{"start":12812.78,"end":12838.841,"text":"所以我想如果明天剛剛民眾黨黨團以及民進黨黨團這樣子發言聽下來明天我們排定的這個院會討論事項能夠處理前三條前三案的國會改革無法這是合法合規的這是第一個我們先確認的一個地方第二從兩點的協商到現在三個多小時終於民進黨團柯總召先排了"},{"start":12840.355,"end":12859.166,"text":"剛剛一個多小時的這個又在討論程序又在假意說尊重院長但是其實最不尊重院長的說實在院長已經只是誰發言了都還可以在那邊搶麥克風我想全國人民都看在眼裡討論了一個多小時要來扯程序其實根本不是想要扯程序就是想要拖延時間"},{"start":12860.367,"end":12875.992,"text":"想要限制明天院會只處理環島高鐵跟花東塊這兩案,但是不想要面對國會改革,我們已經在程序委員會排的前三案。」如果是這樣的話,國人會感到非常失望。"},{"start":12877.112,"end":12897.081,"text":"這是知法玩法是玩弄意識規則我們在禮拜三的時候為了要確保我們能夠在明天順利的依合法合規合憲我們來去做每一個討論事項我們提前來排隊在議場前面現在還有我們的兄弟姐妹在排隊"},{"start":12898.081,"end":12927.047,"text":"也因此我們講的是說如果今天民進黨團先排他的陽謀就是不想要討論到明天的這三個法案的話我覺得沒有辦法接受那再者今天協商剛好民進黨團在最後一刻如果我沒有接錯這個會議的這個通知錯誤的話在今天的最後一刻又要求院長延商立院職權新施法部分條文修正草案等三案什麼最後一刻"},{"start":12929.249,"end":12942.79,"text":"沒有問題。我們達到會議通知、開會通知的時候是在今天的。那我們就等一下院長請做一個協商。來這個協商,我們一定,我們今天協商沒有時間表。所以柯總召不要跑。"},{"start":12943.953,"end":12970.467,"text":"等下我們一定你我要多久協商只要主席能夠我們一定陪你今天協商到明天早上七點我都OK我都一定奉陪我們要的就是明天依照程序委員會我們來做討論事項的所有案例尤其是前三案尤其是前三案這是我們的規定那我想最後真的啦院長"},{"start":12972.409,"end":12988.734,"text":"我還是建議我們黨團三長資歷可能有輕有淺年紀有輕有淺但是既然坐在這個位置上代表國民黨團、民進黨團、民眾黨團大家平起平坐我覺得發言時間真的要控制"},{"start":12989.656,"end":12992.497,"text":"民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議：於新民眾黨團提議："},{"start":13014.244,"end":13017.125,"text":"委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．於新委員會作成決議．"},{"start":13035.833,"end":13057.283,"text":"接下來請柯建民總召發言,然後傅坤祺總召請準備。我希望大家一起好好聽。今天不是講程式性問題,今天講法律的問題,而且立法院的問題。你知道什麼叫職權刑事法,律六十八條嗎?職權刑法律六十八條是"},{"start":13060.111,"end":13061.312,"text":"黨團協商、政黨協商以及爭議事項是院長之前"},{"start":13066.843,"end":13091.342,"text":"院長之前,院長覺得有需要他再召集,我們覺得有需要請院長召集。」這是院長在整個立法院裡面一個很重要的武器,而且他之前。你講了71條之一,委員會協商一個月以後,之一是寫什麼?是定期表決。"},{"start":13092.623,"end":13117.568,"text":"本來是四個月以後,二零八以後馬英九執政把他改為一個月以後,你要瞭解這個整個立法的過程。大家是如何讓立法院能夠好好討論事情。協商沒有結論也不是明天就表決,是定期律理處理的。所以你要把法看清楚。你看黃國昌根本在這裡不講法律的吧。"},{"start":13118.527,"end":13145.112,"text":"你在這邊好像你﹐站到了極大的優勢﹐極大的理論﹐然後不要跑,只要十二點。你只要明天也是一樣。沒有決定是定期處理,不是你排在那裡就要馬上處理。你以為這樣就可以處理啊。因為你沒有擔任黨別人,我告訴你。不知道黃昌委員剛剛講了一項。你們昨天在陳奕委員強制表決一二三案所謂改革案。"},{"start":13147.449,"end":13170.635,"text":"然後明天就排然後你們就開始排隊我一直很悶啊你們在排什麼我只是在不好意思講而已啊我今天特別發現臉書法院長所有都是法院長你是一念之間整個國家民主憲政制度憲法整個國家民主假如不照法來不是要寫個記者來那我們就結束了"},{"start":13172.336,"end":13179.042,"text":"韓國昌也當過黨鞭,我們過去讓他在這裏單獨協商讓他單獨找我們部委黨長檢案一個鐘頭,不會為了我們的尊重,你告訴我之後沒關係,所以你不要棄絕法律,然後你要限制發言時間,發言時間之後法院規定指揮在哪裡,就告訴我,"},{"start":13201.516,"end":13224.027,"text":"一直跟著三十一條去看．假如沒有決定的東西．沒有一次的限制．結果院會才有．所以我們要查一條簽名每個發言幾分鐘．你要瞭解．你要清潔法律．然後以為你佔到一個．然後無敵的武力．根本你這樣破壞國會．那整個民主都毀掉了．"},{"start":13227.965,"end":13251.196,"text":"這個是一個很嚴肅的事情,我們一直在這裏不願情緩地講,不知道剛才不是要講得這麼詳細,還是講什麼權力分立原則,只有把你講得這麼清楚你又看不懂。不是你今天你們兩個黨加起來,為所欲為,什麼都可以發明可以創造,沒有這個事情,國家不是這樣做的。"},{"start":13253.191,"end":13256.857,"text":"國民黨黨團．建請院會作成決議．以新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":13269.415,"end":13294.445,"text":"我們認為違反權力分離原則,你認為沒有。我是只要剛才在講這麼詳細,你也聽不下去,沒有關係。那我們就表決了。我們輸了就算了。我們輸了就算了。但是呢,輸了以後我們會實現。好不好?這樣好不好?可以進入程序了吧?你要做到時候,你自己做。"},{"start":13295.885,"end":13306.149,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":13323.592,"end":13328.034,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":13352.099,"end":13371.678,"text":"我們要向韓院長致敬。韓院長真的不只是不斷在蛻變、在升級。為了這樣的一個複雜的一個協商的過程,還有今天我正式看到過去民進黨在演"},{"start":13372.961,"end":13377.347,"text":"總統施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":13390.423,"end":13418.45,"text":"對韓院長直接做人身的攻擊．原來就是直接就直接要鋪牌來挑戰你的權威甚至在直播的過程當中現在把你刻意醜化醜化了以後才可以把你的這個國會議長的這樣的一個領導權來一個做一個正面的挑戰我想我們今天聽了這麼久"},{"start":13420.597,"end":13449.004,"text":"這個我們還是很單純的很單純的也都相信大家是要善意的溝通。前幾次的朝野協商這邊就在謾罵的過程當中人身攻擊不斷人身攻擊在謾罵人身攻擊不斷的在損耗大家的時間。今天的協商我們是依照協商的內容協商的內容來進行但是我們並沒有接受"},{"start":13450.222,"end":13476.828,"text":"除了這個協商的內容以外還有其他的但書明天只能處理哪個案子明天不能處理哪些案子其實今天院長發的協商已經很清楚了我想民進黨也提出了這國會改革相關的案子也提出來了這第五案所以我們今天準備好挑燈夜戰反正我們要睡覺嘛如果說"},{"start":13479.042,"end":13498.542,"text":"民進黨再三強調委員會中心主義不斷的在這裡呼天搶地這個委員會的討論有多麼多麼的重要國會改革相關的這些修正案在司法委員會"},{"start":13500.824,"end":13505.45,"text":"經過整整八個小時的討論．民進黨也經過44次的上會動議．44次的表決．裡面柯總召"},{"start":13519.229,"end":13523.152,"text":"黨黨長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":13540.322,"end":13563.777,"text":"朝野協商．由吳仲健召委召集的朝野協商．他們那個幹事長．這個好像吳思堯也到了．也搞了很多個小時．也經過了這個程序完成．然後我們今天．哇,看到很高興．這個柯總召．民進黨提議今天的"},{"start":13565.566,"end":13593.529,"text":"黨團協商通知第五條．嚴理立法院職權行政法部分修正條文．三案。」我想民進黨提出來我們就準備要挑燈夜戰了。第一個委員會中心主義委員會已經進行了所有該必須進行的程序也包括委員會的朝野協商也都經過完成。然後呢這個版本又是這個版本又是民進黨"},{"start":13595.226,"end":13599.348,"text":"過去不斷地要求國會必須陽光,必須要清廉,必須要儲備,我們是依照民進黨的版本,而且"},{"start":13612.625,"end":13628.812,"text":"大法官解釋五八五號解釋令,民國九十三年到現在二十年,我們全部都是依照五八五號解釋令所提出的這些修正條文。我實在不清楚"},{"start":13630.65,"end":13637.534,"text":"賴清德總統即將就職。」賴清德總統即將就職。你尊重我的發言。賴清德總統即將就職。難道不希望有一個健全的國會幫他所有過去他不是當總統任內的所有的這些相關的情勢都能夠讓人民了解清楚。"},{"start":13657.554,"end":13684.5,"text":"我們要講的就是今天國會改革所有的這些條文通過以後對國家是正面的對國會是正面的對民進黨更是正面的對賴總統絕對是正面的這能夠讓國家更加的連人更加的有效力更加的清白這個我想賴總統半夜都會鼓掌到天亮"},{"start":13686.428,"end":13693.637,"text":"我想這樣的一個經過委員會,柯總召從頭到尾都在現場,他不能說他沒有參與。三長都在現場,從頭參與到尾,協商他的幹事長出席,一路協商到結束。"},{"start":13707.185,"end":13734.131,"text":"然後接著下來來來來來我們一條條協商啊我等你啊沒有問題啊我等你啊沒有問題啊我們一條條來沒有關係嘛所以啊我們在這裡啊我們在這裡再次的強調全部站到立法院的議事程序走禮拜二的程序委員會已經送了"},{"start":13735.578,"end":13763.095,"text":"那禮拜五該排的議程都已經排好了我們完全要遵規則所以對於可能的突發的狀況去迫害禮拜五的議程我們也都非常明確我們可以參風露宿在議場門口排隊為什麼?我們就是守規則照規則走那既然議事規則就是這麼清楚五月十七號"},{"start":13764.164,"end":13786.03,"text":"也經過了這些程序．也到了可以做院會處理的時間．我們當然仗義成種．我們不會有任何的交換條件．更不會有徇私舞弊的情況發生．我們啊．如果．如果剛剛陳如柯總召講的．我要跟全國國人在這裡報告．"},{"start":13789.019,"end":13795.843,"text":"委員會的協商．全國人都看到．委員會的討論．全國人都看到．還是說．今天的國會．沒有柯建民點頭．通通不能處理．都不能討論．我在這裡要特別強調．我們完全"},{"start":13810.942,"end":13829.518,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院院長施政方針報告前："},{"start":13831.328,"end":13850.622,"text":"剛剛柯總召我很尊重他講話的時候聽他講完剛剛柯總召當著所有的人講說如果沒有照他的意思會有史上最嚴重的衝突就是說已經預先恐嚇在野黨預先恐嚇在野黨他當家還要鬧事"},{"start":13856.348,"end":13858.491,"text":"我們不怕!我們不怕!怕!今天就不會來了!"},{"start":13872.062,"end":13874.765,"text":"現在是第四案跟第五案是一起討論的是不是?都一起討論了齁?"},{"start":13890.403,"end":13912.804,"text":"我先針對第四案環島快速鐵路高速鐵路這個部分我想該廳不管是吳思堯幹事長或者柯總召的意見一直說這個部分違反權力分立原則我們立法院沒有這個定立特別條例的這樣一個權力其實我想我要挑戰你"},{"start":13914.261,"end":13930.771,"text":"我想我們立法委員的職權就是有立法權有議決法律的權利嘛這是很明顯的你同意吧所以立法委員去訂立特別條例訂立這個法律案這你應該同意吧"},{"start":13931.889,"end":13951.181,"text":"黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院院長施政方"},{"start":13956.044,"end":13974.585,"text":"我想我們也可以來討論那他們主要的意思他們就認為說這部分預算這部分的有侵侵犯到我們啊這個行政機關他編列預算的權利但是我們要提醒你請你看一下我們這個啊修這個修正動議後修改後的第六條第六條很明確規定啊"},{"start":13978.508,"end":14001.553,"text":"這預算從哪裡而來?有三個方式啊。第一個依照促進民間參與公共建設辦理採用民間興建營運後的預算模式。第二個依照國際招標方式以興建營運後轉移的模式。第三個由中央執行機關分年編類預算辦理。所以也不是特別預算。"},{"start":14003.759,"end":14014.139,"text":"如果說不是依照第一跟第二個方式,第三個方式也是由我們的中央政府行政機關他逐年編列預算來執行的。"},{"start":14016.263,"end":14017.184,"text":"黨黨團協商委員會的協商委員會參與。」"},{"start":14044.739,"end":14060.421,"text":"大概講說沒有逐條討論,莊雄你也在啦,有通過一條欸,你說沒有通過,沒有半條,沒有逐條,有通過一條嘛,所以有逐條討論之後沒有逐條討論,那其他的都有在討論,都有一直在討論。"},{"start":14061.562,"end":14086.871,"text":"但是為什麼你自己知道這是什麼原因我想第二天你們也有開記者會說什麼原因那我們有進入主條討論的程序請尊重一下發言委員發言委員不要被情緒感染謝謝謝業長表達所以我們在主條討論的過程中那當然雙方就無法達成共識討論了很久所以沒有辦法達成共識我們就依照相關的意識規則既然沒有共識就"},{"start":14087.711,"end":14110.571,"text":"送院會處理。」這樣子處理我怎麼沒有出條討論呢?這個不要亂講明明有以上謝謝謝謝林思明委員接下來在吳思堯委員發言之前各位黨團幹部如果沒有意見是不是請列席的各位官員就可以先離席因為他們是公務員他們可能回去還有很多事情處理他們的作息"},{"start":14112.921,"end":14129.299,"text":"不是,我說列席交通部、交通部跟交通部跟國防會還有其他部會。如果各位黨團他們沒有意見的話,我們就請官員先離席。也謝謝大家,再次感謝大家。那我們接下來"},{"start":14130.76,"end":14158.652,"text":"院長能不能把今天協商的這一些案子的那個內容文件全部都發下來好不好因為我們就要進入了嘛因為這是民進黨團排的那我們現在就是進行協商怎麼是我們排的這個是院長排的怎麼是我們排的你民進黨團不是啦今天的議程是院長排的啊現在又不認了什麼時候叫我們排的連你們自己請求都不敢認現在在處理花東欸拿公文出來看"},{"start":14159.552,"end":14165.098,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新"},{"start":14187.681,"end":14201.884,"text":"實施正義,我們現在就是遵守程序正義。各種招,請各位官員稍微快速一點好不好,謝謝大家,謝謝。稍微等一下,請官員離席之後。"},{"start":14228.018,"end":14237.64,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":14245.674,"end":14254.582,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":14265.094,"end":14279.717,"text":"好,那再一次謝謝法務部、總統府還有行政院考試院、監察院各位各位官員你們就請回了,我們來討論了。好,因為已經到了你們要下班的時間了,不打擾大家了。請快速移動。好,保持微笑。謝謝。"},{"start":14305.202,"end":14315.871,"text":"自然演員來引導一下好不好,請官員先離開,那邊有三部電梯哈,因為我們下面還有委員要發言。離開的時候會有一點點,會有一點雜音。好,接下來我們請吳世耀委員發言,請。"},{"start":14317.637,"end":14336.994,"text":"好院長啊如果照剛剛今天的協商議案現在進入的是環島高鐵以及花東塊哈我的認知沒有錯那國會改革的議案等一下要不要繼續協商那先等這兩個案子處理完好嗎那先回到程序面"},{"start":14341.296,"end":14352.198,"text":"職權行使法第七十一條﹚是我在講實質啊。是啊。請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,請勇,"},{"start":14361.952,"end":14385.494,"text":"好,我要自宣刑事法第七十一條之一喔,院長。議案自交黨討然,協商欲一個月無法達成共識者,由院會定期處理。的意思是,其實我在當國會助理的時候,還有行政院參議的時候,那個時候是四個月嘛,對不對?四個月的協商冷凍期。對,四個月的協商冷凍期。那後來改成,對,後來改成一個月。"},{"start":14387.917,"end":14407.512,"text":"但是這個議案改成一個月的意思是說．任何一個議案出了委員會．進入協商．至少要有一個月．再對話．再匯聚共識。這是至少有一個月。所以呢在一個月之後．"},{"start":14409.013,"end":14434.719,"text":"則期再處理,不是說一個月D-Day就馬上處理。」好,這個法條的精神很重要。所以法條的理解不要錯誤了。這一個條文是告訴我們至少要有一個月,而不是說一個月就是放在那裡乾等過水,然後等過一個月之後馬上表決。這完全是誤解法律,也是誤用法律。第二個,韓院長跟您報告,"},{"start":14435.919,"end":14456.17,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前、繼續研商新任行政院院院長施政"},{"start":14457.589,"end":14461.997,"text":"協商期過．沒有經過協商．沒有經過實質討論．就表決。 Never!"},{"start":14461.997,"end":14464.421,"text":"Never!"},{"start":14464.421,"end":14467.126,"text":"Never!"},{"start":14467.126,"end":14470.031,"text":"王金平也好,蘇嘉全也好,到游錫堃也好,"},{"start":14471.92,"end":14488.888,"text":"民眾黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方"},{"start":14497.745,"end":14499.367,"text":"院會作成決議．於新院會作成決議．於新院會作成決議．於新院會"},{"start":14517.84,"end":14532.241,"text":"蘇嘉全院長針對反滲透法協商了兩次,但是一次都是七、八個小時以上。蘇嘉全院長針對前瞻基礎建設協商了兩天,一次都是十小時、十五小時的。"},{"start":14533.683,"end":14540.714,"text":"蘇嘉全院長針對政黨不當處理財產不當黨產條例．協商了十個小時,都是一條一條討論。蘇嘉全院長針對促轉條例協商了七次,"},{"start":14548.635,"end":14571.471,"text":"好,講到游錫堃院長,我這裡列出來的是因為我自己作為列席委員,我是教育文化委員的交委,我都有來參加的。學校衛生法,游錫堃院長協商了四次。文化藝術獎助條例,游錫堃院長協商了三次。我要跟韓院長報告,我認為您是理性可以溝通的人。為什麼院長,這就是院長至高無上的協商的權限。"},{"start":14572.532,"end":14596.539,"text":"一個立法院院長很重要的一個責任是會聚共事不是凡事都表決反而相反在表決前能夠減少彼此的歧義讓表決的條文越少越好因為這就是院長的協調能耐所以過去的幾任院長協調了七次八次九次這都是協商一個月兩個月繼續協商從來沒有"},{"start":14600.64,"end":14613.544,"text":"時間到一個月,不逐條討論,就像現在我們也看得很清楚,副總召也好,洪孟凱書記長也好,打得如意算盤就是熬過時間,等一下一個一個條文就過水,然後就直接明天表決。回到現在講的環島高鐵跟蘇花快,我這裡提出來的都是負責任的交通專業評估,"},{"start":14628.419,"end":14642.956,"text":"立法部門沒有辦法做到這些,你憑什麼去規定編多少預算?你憑什麼去規定框定它十年或是改成十二年?這是不負責任的立法。」"},{"start":14644.161,"end":14669.769,"text":"我們講講被國民黨罵到臭頭杯葛最利的前瞻建設條例我拿了這裡四本厚厚的預算書都是通過特別條例再編特別預算才會有四年對不起八年八千八百億第一期是一千零八十九億我跟大家報告一個叫Key剛的"},{"start":14670.729,"end":14690.143,"text":"重要工程就以前瞻建設被國民黨杯葛這麼強力的前瞻建設先有特別條例才有特別預算特別條例從2017年3月23號行政院送到立法院到他表決通過是2017年7月5號審查了104天"},{"start":14694.787,"end":14718.908,"text":"當中委員會辦了六場公聽會,六個委員會的聯席審查,審查了五次。朝野協商由蘇嘉全院長主持,協商了兩次,一次九小時,一次十五小時。在院會表決的時候,前瞻特別條例各黨共提案八十案表決五十九次。"},{"start":14720.012,"end":14729.018,"text":"先有條例再有預算。我就以前瞻建設的第一期編列的預算是1089億。行政院2017年7月11號送到立法院完成審查,歷經了51天。"},{"start":14735.642,"end":14761.959,"text":"當中也是七個委員會聯席審查．花了三天足足的時間逐條逐項審查。朝野協商由蘇嘉全院長主持了三次。院會的表決在野黨提案提了一萬零四百三十五案。前瞻特別預算在立法院的院會表決了兩千四百七十一次。我要跟院長報告"},{"start":14764.031,"end":14773.377,"text":"前瞻的第一期計劃一千零八十九億要歷經這樣層層的審查、層層的協商、層層的討論才表決這是一千零八十九億的前瞻預算的第一期我們今天現在要處理的是環島高鐵市一兆以上一兆以上"},{"start":14791.055,"end":14819.66,"text":"第二案花東塊要兩千五百億以上。請問我們不值得好好來討論嗎?我們不值得嚴肅的來行使我們的監督權嗎?我們當立法委員就做好我們的工作不要只想過水不要只想怕死不要只想硬幹不要只想表決"},{"start":14821.601,"end":14838.67,"text":"非常遺憾我今天在這裡還要針對我搬了這麼多的預算書在野黨哪一個立委這麼認真的去看交通評估在野黨的哪一個立委這麼認真的去看所有建設的財務試算應當如何進行"},{"start":14841.86,"end":14854.548,"text":"坐在這裡直想等過水趴死,熬過今天,等一下韓院長離開這裡宣布協商結束,明天就表決。」我們是立法委員,民恥民高。"},{"start":14856.201,"end":14869.871,"text":"民主民高。」我們可以這樣胡亂的行使我們的職權嗎?第二個,我們也看得很清楚,在野黨的委員,除了要在明天強行表決通過前瞻條例之外,還要加碼,讓到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":14877.32,"end":14899.646,"text":"協商的立法院職權行使法也就是國會擴權的法案也要在明天一起表決。我要挑戰在委員會審查司法法制委員會審查哪一個條文被逐條了沒有你們一直在講那天吳宗憲委員主持的黨團協商我有在場"},{"start":14900.746,"end":14904.19,"text":"他花了不到一個小時,討論的條文只有三個,通過一條,我們總共有六十幾個條文,六十八條,只通過一條,你跟我說那個有經過黨團協商,這就是過水嗎?這就是過水嗎?"},{"start":14921.653,"end":14943.602,"text":"而且,如果要強行明天表決職權行使法．只有國民黨的版本．只有民眾黨的版本．民進黨的職權行使法．被拋在後面．因為這非常重大．非常重大,好,院長．所以我最後要說．國民黨跟民眾黨．打的什麼如意算盤．"},{"start":14945.034,"end":14961.999,"text":"再生醫療雙法就因為你們要強行表決錢坑法案、強行表決國會擴權法案、讓所有的癌症病患、重症病患、慢性病患、苦苦等待的再生醫療雙法在明天的議程被排到後面。明天要強行通過政治法案,把民生法案、救命法案丟在一邊,"},{"start":14973.488,"end":14975.932,"text":"這是國民黨民眾黨你們的良知嗎?你們最關心的村里長"},{"start":14980.589,"end":14982.03,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":15004.392,"end":15013.521,"text":"院長,我們是立法委員,以兆元以上的預算,我不能講十分鐘嗎?一兆,我現在在講,我剛剛在講這麼多,因為你們急切地要處理前科法案,也急切地要處理職權新施法,"},{"start":15022.249,"end":15029.955,"text":"這麼嚴肅的事情我們不能講十分鐘十五分鐘嗎?我們是民意代表!我第一次的協商就告訴院長如果心態上大家只是想要過水我講五十次時間都不夠我們這麼認真的準備我們的問政都要被踐踏"},{"start":15048.223,"end":15069.614,"text":"你們不尊重我們實質討論的。大家都互相發言,你已經變成演講比賽了,你知道嗎?我不是演講比賽。你已經超出太多範圍了。麻煩你進入環島高鐵主要協商。好,那環島高鐵我剛剛講了很多。立法院新司法我們等一下會討論,你為什麼要把他兩個怎麼混在一起勒?院長我非常的失望。"},{"start":15071.431,"end":15095.164,"text":"我們認真的在監督你說我們在演講比賽你上來就給我上一個枷鎖說你舉手我都沒看到我還特別說請你發言不是嗎那你自己要自重嘛院長我非常的自愛自重啊我們就自己控制時間院長不要選擇性的對待不同黨派的委員言盡於此我們大家控制一下好不好好不要吵"},{"start":15099.235,"end":15120.538,"text":"主席宣告我們現在進行環島高鐵逐條協商拜託各位黨團幹部能夠對焦資料就在大家桌上逐條進行沒有共識我們就保留沒有共識我們就保留那針對第一條莊瑞雄委員有沒有保過意見請"},{"start":15121.707,"end":15145.921,"text":"我這個意見一定是寶貴啊,院長。其實也倒也不是施堯,你在講這個環島高鐵的時候,他在講這句行事法。不是。是各個黨團裡面,我剛聽了以後,你已經進入到高鐵,他們最關心的,他一直在跟你講說,哎喲,我們全部都有討論過,是這樣子才引起的。那我們當然必須要去做回應,這個院長,這個不是針對你,這個你也不要誤會。"},{"start":15147.122,"end":15154.256,"text":"因為剛剛那個黃孟楷委員他們一直在講啊,林士明也開始講啊,你們講說這個在委員會裡面都已經有討論過了。哎喲,林士明你也每次請這個又想一個。"},{"start":15159.961,"end":15173.373,"text":"我告訴你,四月十五日,我跟你講,四月十五日那天,五十五個條文都沒有實質討論,是主辦保留送院會,你還怎麼講,你知道嗎?你還講說,哎喲,朝夕協商沒有在主條的啦,你忘記了嗎?哎喲,我哪敢讓你看,我告訴你,我是不要再漏氣,我現在悄悄地跟你講,"},{"start":15182.383,"end":15200.889,"text":"院長,我的意思是說我是在回應他啦,那你既然要對焦,他們就不想對焦嘛,那我就跟你講嘛,要講出一個道理嘛,你說現在富均級委員等五十三人所凝聚的環島高鐵高速鐵路的建設特別條例,我們現在要開始講第一條嘛,對不對。我當然要請他們,我們當然要提出我們的一個看法。"},{"start":15207.563,"end":15231.09,"text":"推動環島高速鐵路的部分,這當然是發展整個大眾的運輸,大家都同意。」我為什麼第一條我開始要講說,利益良善,大家剛才談的就是說,真的是我們立法院這樣來推動嗎?我們真的要來治病這一部法律,然後就花東的部分就來推動?對我屏東我叫做苦主啦!"},{"start":15233.148,"end":15238.19,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":15253.683,"end":15275.843,"text":"就直接說我們今天人數比較多所以要來建造一個環島高速鐵路來建設條例然後叫你行政院你就叫你做你就不得不做是這樣的一個態度嗎我一直認為啊軌道建設不是不能做啊國民黨其實在前瞻基礎建設的時候最痛恨的就是軌道建設最痛恨的就是軌道建設啊"},{"start":15277.089,"end":15300.543,"text":"連院長即使你對高鐵道屏東．當初你也都有意見．我就沒想到要再漏氣了．但是重點就是說．我們這樣的一個法案．進入實質我都願意．但是我們真的必須要去講清楚．舉國家一年的預算．我們的國家一年的總預算兩兆多．"},{"start":15301.894,"end":15330.691,"text":"花東這樣的一個整個環島的高速鐵路建設特別條例我們是不是是以我們制定一部法令來命令行政院做成這樣的一個交通建設還是說行政院本來施政就必須要顧及到東西的一個平衡顧及到城鄉差距然後竹案來推動而不是說"},{"start":15332.304,"end":15357.084,"text":"整個條例通過以後．投入這麼多的一個預算．然後那其他的地方呢．是不是會有更失衡．為了達到平衡．然後到最後更失衡．這個我是覺得大家．要來好好的做一個省思了．所以我現在談到的就是第一條裡面．全部都是實質．我講的全部都是實質．那乾脆我就覺得林世民．你新竹要多弄一點啊．"},{"start":15359.56,"end":15364.841,"text":"是不是?為什麼想說第一條我會特別有意見的習慣?院長我意思是說如果要邏輯也要搞清楚啊為什麼進入中規的你不要你卻從要從這個台北然後到宜蘭然後到花蓮再到台東而不是從已經進入中規的屏東到台東然後再到花蓮這個大家要講清楚"},{"start":15384.824,"end":15384.844,"text":"院長。"},{"start":15415.168,"end":15418.792,"text":"我一直試圖讓我們講很多話會有一個結論但是緊鎖了整個法律"},{"start":15430.064,"end":15445.729,"text":"我一直要講一個事情今天是立法院裡面一個非常關鍵的一天都是大家一念之間你要把破壞掉民主就毀了所以我今天很很誠懇的說大家把話講錯了"},{"start":15447.782,"end":15474.239,"text":"剛才在外面跟韓院長還有副院長吳思堯還有黃孟楷我們在外面有先講過要改變事情比較重要要解決事情比較重要但是要在立法院軌道上來完成我必須承認我了解"},{"start":15476.564,"end":15502.599,"text":"我們堅守的是什麼東西?請大家了解。就是說,韓院長也一直跟我講說他會很中立來處理,他不會把立法院搞亂掉。你還講一句話說,我們都支持法聯繫了,還在吵什麼?這都很誠懇的話。非常感激韓院長有這種體認。所以於是乎剛才我們三個除了黃國昌以外,"},{"start":15503.803,"end":15529.872,"text":"還有黃國昌以外：我們到外面都講好。而且我進來代表大家來台灣內容做一個適合性的解決。很好高這兩案子,我們裡面講得非常透徹,包括吳士曉剛才在補充,我已經講了兩次以上,上次講了兩次以上,我也不為難大家。"},{"start":15531.806,"end":15559.657,"text":"但是呢,我們做這樣的嘗試性結論的時候,大家都覺得很滿意。然後俄商不同意,轉到別的地方去了。他們轉到說昨天前提程序委員會強行表決通過國會三法,那後來好像是一二三案,這怎麼解決?這個變更一層,大家常常談到的變更一層,把環島高層弄到前面來了嘛,這個很簡單嘛。"},{"start":15561.846,"end":15580.726,"text":"所以黃國昌委員,我一直,他常常講完就走,我一直說就走,不要再哭了,不要再吵了,拜託了,拜託了。他來講,他走堅持的就是一些程序性的問題。啊我講話你有沒有辦法插話?我承認他講話有插過我的話,他也講話有插過我的話,插過誰的話,都有。"},{"start":15583.257,"end":15599.357,"text":"今天禮拜四昨天我特別到司法法治委員會黃國昌第一個發言有關於澳門的案子我現在看他講話而且一個人的時間都講得很清楚"},{"start":15600.285,"end":15628.506,"text":"他照常超過發言時間不得不吳宗憲再站起來我們還是很忍耐我再看他到底要他有沒有什麼規矩不要用這個東西來講所以今天我們要講清楚只要方針委員走了以後我們今天試圖把這個事情圓滿起來簽一個朝陽結論你能不能跟你講話不好意思簽一個朝陽結論明天在宴會"},{"start":15629.79,"end":15630.24,"text":"大家講好"},{"start":15631.837,"end":15657.83,"text":"大會討論幾個人．主要討論幾個人．我們就這樣走過去．表決輸了．我們以後不可能表決贏．我們一定會釋憲．就是這樣而已．這個東西就是．在誠信軌道上．我們還要緊守．我們所能努力的方向．但是今天遭遇．要怎麼處理．任副總裁．我們來胡言亂語．我們發表演講都講錯．"},{"start":15660.371,"end":15672.31,"text":"他們鬧成這樣,然後整個程序都是因為沒收,他覺得這沒收是有什麼道理,他不在這裏,我也不要缺席整判。那院長。"},{"start":15673.596,"end":15699.314,"text":"現在不要再衝了。他們兩個從這種狀況照尾,我們一家就已經過了。明天再繼續不要衝突。但是,我一直講一句話說,沒有經過超越協商東西,沒有經過院內討論的東西,直接表決,那絕對衝突。這不是,這是民主的最後一大防線,也不是在恐嚇誰。"},{"start":15701.383,"end":15713.088,"text":"所以這個很重要。那現在不要再分開。香港常常是白的,你就不用白。香港常常是白的,你就不用白。這是什麼?都在香港的,來日本就很明白。"},{"start":15714.776,"end":15741.774,"text":"這不是這樣搞法啦然後講那個直接刑事法講得很清楚七十一條之一沒有決定一個月沒有決定命定其處理那不是馬上處理而且院長你做政法之前就六十八到七十一六十八條你處理所以朝委協商的問題有爭議的事情是你來處理我一百多次"},{"start":15744.476,"end":15759.386,"text":"我們這30年也要確實幹起院長的角色。我們可以樂意跟你配合,但只要維持民主程序。好不好?第二條,針對條文。針對條文。我們這講的話是有準算嗎?"},{"start":15765.845,"end":15774.708,"text":"民眾黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．建請國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":15794.136,"end":15811.572,"text":"再者、協商．剛剛民進黨團．代表一直講是說過去有協商九次、協商八次、協商幾次的經驗。那是各黨有提出相關的版本．能夠讓院長調和、頂賴．把各版本限縮、限縮、再限縮．提出有一些共識。所以當然可以協商啊。"},{"start":15812.293,"end":15832.32,"text":"可是從環島高鐵也好、花東塊也好．或者是相關的建設．一開始開宗明義．是不是我就有提出說．如果民進黨的代表真的有意見．真的有想法．拿出版本來．行政部門拿出版本來．我們針對逐條逐條大家去．去提出．"},{"start":15836.141,"end":15841.005,"text":"你如果說沒有辦法有版本那我協商50次協商100次不都一樣嗎?那不就是了嗎?你現在就講是說你一方面又講是說以前的院長你先把麥克風關掉我剛剛你在講話的時候我沒有按過麥克風"},{"start":15852.237,"end":15871.606,"text":"你先把麥克風關掉說實在我們大家互相尊重對沒錯我現在講的就是你提出來八至九次的協商那是大家各黨團有版本有版本之後院長能夠來協調來收納來歸納但是你現在重點在於是你一開始就講了你們沒有拿出版本你們只想反對到底"},{"start":15872.586,"end":15895.249,"text":"那我協商一次、協商三次、協商五次,有道理嗎?再者,裡面哪一條沒有辦法?我說實在話,裡面每一條,如果說你真的有意見,有要討論的話,你就可以針對主條,我們現在來討論。再者,剛剛吳氏要講說,我們只想要過水,想表決。想表決是誰?想表決是坐在你旁邊的柯建民啊!"},{"start":15896.03,"end":15915.335,"text":"他剛剛就已經講了就說哎呦來喔我們來確定明天要發言幾個人反正明天表決我們會輸誰想表決想表決是你旁邊的柯建民啊想便宜行事是你旁邊的柯建民啊你們自己先三長先把意見同意之再說了最後我真的必須講院長"},{"start":15918.086,"end":15939.115,"text":"我真的在這邊我很不喜歡口出惡言所以我不會指名道姓不會至少不希望是講是說到底是誰怎麼樣可是從一開始做下來從兩點做到現在要嘛是講人家的法案就是錢坑要嘛就是講別人然後講說我們黨什麼法案等等的部分"},{"start":15939.995,"end":15958.574,"text":"說真的,從禮拜二的程序委員會,我們就已經確定一、二、三條是國會改革,四、五是總統國情報告,七、八是環島高鐵跟花東塊,這些都已經確定的。民進黨團的朋友難道沒有看到嗎?沒有想要來溝通討論嗎?沒有。"},{"start":15961.57,"end":15988.882,"text":"那就只是想要今天再來做翻盤剛剛在休息時間在外面刻意講說啊我們就拉花東塊跟環島高鐵明天來表決就好那就是刻意要忽視一二三條討論事項的國會改革立法院立法院職權行使法這不是刻意的想要魚目混珠什麼才是魚目混珠最後請容許我再講一過協商期"},{"start":15990.202,"end":15993.877,"text":"一個月馬上就表決了。你之前民進黨團還少過嗎?"},{"start":15998.65,"end":16014.705,"text":"2019年5月17號處理公告期的公投．把公投從跟大選在一起．變成說公投明定兩年舉行一次．5月17號．院會民進黨團提案進覆二讀．6月17號直接院會三讀通過．這算什麼?"},{"start":16023.946,"end":16048.057,"text":"這不就是你們當時一個月的協商期完之後馬上處理公投法嗎?公投法怎麼從跟大選在一起變成每兩年一次?就是你們在2019年5月17號進負二讀,6月17號你們就表決通過了,不是嗎?有人講有指別人,但是不想自己。我們就找出來,你們過去就有這樣的案例。"},{"start":16048.942,"end":16056.965,"text":"所以拜託,我們今天就是論事,就是論事。」所以,院長,我們實在的說今天第二條,我沒有演講,而你又在犯規了,你又按了麥克風。我再講30秒,我就說,院長,請你先把麥克風關掉。"},{"start":16075.091,"end":16076.672,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":16098.408,"end":16114.654,"text":"第二條條文其實很清楚的就剛剛莊瑞雄委員他是屏東的立委他針對這個環島高鐵的路線怎麼走他其實多次的就表達為什麼呢這個路線是由這個條文的版本是從台東銜接到屏東六塊錯站"},{"start":16116.075,"end":16139.246,"text":"而不是順著從高雄往南延伸。」所以這個路線的選擇就是交通專業的評估。所以這一點就以在場的委員就有非常清楚的,而且是選區的立委,最了解的屏東的委員,他本身就認為這個條文不可行,也凸顯了這樣一個粗糙的條文的寫法是沒有徵詢在地的意見的。"},{"start":16140.286,"end":16160.393,"text":"那為什麼我也要說這個路線的話跟第二條也很有關係就是因為我們現在都知道這個國土計劃其實要各縣市要送給中央嘛但是就以這個國民黨團提的這個環島高鐵的條例來講他行經的路線都攸關國土計劃法的授權你要縣市提國土計劃的"},{"start":16162.154,"end":16176.485,"text":"縣市怎麼劃定．送給內政部．可是這個條例裡面的所行經的道路會經過的生態保育系統或是原住民的需要諮商的區域完全都跟縣市政府的這個國土計畫的提出完全不相關"},{"start":16177.365,"end":16199.94,"text":"所以用這個來辯證就是這樣一個條例的條文就以第二條來講這個路線是隨便想想隨便畫畫就把它入法了這完全不可行他除了中央政府交通部要能夠配合第二個地方政府的意願是什麼地方政府的規劃是什麼是完全是非常粗略的欠缺跟在地民意的溝通好那回過頭呢第二條我認為是沒有辦法來來來支持然後呢要回應一下吼那個紅木凱委員你又講錯了吼"},{"start":16207.365,"end":16226.865,"text":"公投法是有經過草野協商的．是有經過充分在協商當中的對話才去表決的。好嗎?我們在講的是任何的議案都要通過協商逐條討論而不是為表決而表決。然後您剛說的民進黨為什麼不提對岸?"},{"start":16228.314,"end":16248.391,"text":"交通部為什麼不提環島高鐵的對岸因為違反憲法違反行政權限立法權限的話分就不可能提對岸這我已經講了N次做了不對的一件事情還要別人在你不對的事情上來提一個對岸這不是笑掉大牙嗎所以什麼因為民進黨沒有提對岸所以就合理化你們不應該逐條討論因為民進黨沒有對岸"},{"start":16253.655,"end":16256.839,"text":"天啊!違憲的我們不可能提對岸好嗎?所以第二條的部分我再一次來路線的部分其實提案的委員也因為已經讓那個交通部門的走了那提案的委員都應當跟我們說明他也許可以說服我們為什麼他對於這個條例"},{"start":16274.64,"end":16300.853,"text":"環島高鐵是從宜蘭到花蓮然後臺東斜到屏東六塊錯這提案委員要說明啊為什麼屏東這一塊不是從高雄延伸到屏東提案委員應該說明吧可以說服我們啊提案委員完全沒有進到這個條例的任何說明的選擇請問有想要好好溝通嗎提案的委員沒有針對你的提案的任何一個條文清楚的說明怎麼溝通怎麼說服我們呢"},{"start":16302.136,"end":16306.639,"text":"所以是不是,欸不是你們負責任提出來的條文啊,你們提出來的條文啊,對不對,這是最起碼的負責任的事情,我們不會提違憲的法律,但是既然你們提了,你們敢提,就要敢說明,就要敢論述。"},{"start":16323.192,"end":16339.019,"text":"所以是不是請提案委員針對第二條每一個條文都應當爭取院長每一條文提案的條文都應當說明條文為什麼這樣寫這樣才能夠匯聚共識才能夠討論的下去提案委員是有這個責任要說明的請您思明委員是要我回答你"},{"start":16346.397,"end":16368.642,"text":"第二條很明確規定就是從宜蘭開始做從宜蘭然後經過花蓮然後台東然後到屏東是由這個宜蘭開始下來而不是由屏東一直往上走所以這個現在是這種邏輯嘛所以你不能說一定要從屏東往上做嘛所以"},{"start":16369.662,"end":16394.503,"text":"但是我們現在告訴你說我第二條我要的範圍就是從宜蘭延伸至花蓮、臺東並銜接是屏東線的六塊柱站。很清楚。但是我再講一下。你剛一直講說什麼沒有經過地方縣市政府評估。你看一下第五條不要斷磚起玉。第五條講得很清楚。交通落於本條你通過你其中可行性評估嘛。"},{"start":16395.023,"end":16413.354,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前：於新"},{"start":16421.319,"end":16445.553,"text":"謝謝。我們各位幹部,我們第二條就...等一下等一下,院長等一下。讓你發言。好,請發言。柯總說。林志明啊,你自己的條文有沒有看一下?可行性評估裡面在第五條寫是要送你一碗神意耶。你不還有能力神意這個嗎?要先做可行性評估啦。你把院來看有什麼問題呢?"},{"start":16448.877,"end":16463.683,"text":"我要講話,可是我要容忍你啦,沒有關係啦。沒有關係啦,你按那個空也無所謂啦,我不是黃國昌啦。那這是李慶能夠討論的,這是屬於李慶討論範圍。那個龍孟楷常常插話說算了,沒有關係。我是講齁,第一個齁,名稱是不是叫黃老高鐵?對吧?"},{"start":16469.364,"end":16482.909,"text":"反倒告前不是要扣一年,這沒有一千嘛,至少少少十分之一嘛,這名字是錯了,七四道名嘛,這名字沒有寫錯了吧,你們這樣寫四件事就好了。"},{"start":16486.44,"end":16498.393,"text":"這個很簡單,中文你也看不懂,好像聽起來很好聽,總算很好聽。你要做這一段是事先事,所以我這邊講了,剛才吳士堯也講得很透徹。"},{"start":16501.676,"end":16529.498,"text":"你說我們說違憲,你說不是大法官。我沒有再跟你講誰是大法官、不大法官了。憲法寫得這麼清楚,你反過來說我們在裝睡,是誰要裝睡?你根本不去瞭解憲法、瞭解什麼大法官事件的條文。然後再說我們要裝睡,你是自己裝睡的。公衛要照天良共。你在這裡齁,"},{"start":16531.059,"end":16543.507,"text":"講的話,你也許就是說反正你怎麼講沒有關係,講給你的支持者聽,然後去剪一些影音,然後播放,什麼都可以。"},{"start":16545.499,"end":16560.425,"text":"我曾經跟你媽媽同事過我希望就是說你是一個有負責有良心的立法會講話要面對所有自己的良心所以你為川台公來這裡"},{"start":16562.446,"end":16580.619,"text":"然後我會良心講話,然後也顧及族情,這都是有時而盡。要政派經營,這個我講得比較很切一點。因為根本你這個條文,我們每一條都有問題,我們不會跟你拿對關。因為討論的不對,獨處獨國理論你應該知道吧。"},{"start":16586.049,"end":16589.292,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":16604.093,"end":16622.366,"text":"我們剛才在外面講得很清楚,我試圖反正今天所有爭議能夠解決,但是我一直堅持一個原則,海恩長也非常清楚,沒有經過朝廷協商討論的,沒有經過徹底討論的,直接送表決是不可能的,所以我要解這個套。"},{"start":16623.564,"end":16650.226,"text":"你談了很多,但是我講的話你不會接受,你講話我不會接受,我們都尊重,最後狀況是院會表決嘛。我們有沒有辦法今天就是嘗試性的,然後走完,超越行政決議簽的出來嗎?我這樣不在啦,假的啦。到底院長你要思考這個問題喔,我覺得話,以前也常常這樣,"},{"start":16652.351,"end":16654.772,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":16668.57,"end":16692.822,"text":"堆積我們過去三十年前．我們前統治國．歷史有信．你今天貴爲院長．我在這裏．在這兒建立三十年的國會．我們有義務．有責任．去維護這個國會．的民主。這是我很懇切講的話。所以希望說大家．冷靜沒有關係關係。也要去．因為我也長寬了。"},{"start":16696.98,"end":16724.659,"text":"民主沒有辦法說服的話．我們就民主程序處理．但是至少我們建行這個程序．不是直接就表決．直接表決我是絕對沒有辦法接受．這不是這樣的．我們不會接受恆河的．各位協商代表．我還是要談實質．但是我這個實質請大家認真思考一下 我知道"},{"start":16725.859,"end":16741.91,"text":"福根齊總召提出這個條文．他對花蓮．他情有獨鍾．要發展花蓮的重大建設．深感敬佩．真的是敬佩．但交通重大建設．不是這樣每一個條文我都會講"},{"start":16743.8,"end":16763.046,"text":"等下每個條文我都全部會去論述,但問題就是說我們還是卡關了。為什麼呢?各位啊,憑各位這麼偉大的一個政治家的聰明才智都很清楚,可行性評估出來以後,做可行性評估,你怎麼知道評估出來就一定要做呢?"},{"start":16764.537,"end":16785.428,"text":"你們後面前後的條文全部都已經矛盾了,你們還要求十年啊。你們這是叫做報名要吃虧的環境欸。你們是被我罵完以後,你們本來是講國發會欸,你們現在才改交通部欸。彌圖知反是很好的一件事情,知道錯了把它改過來是好事啊。但重點是,可行性評估以後,在評估什麼?"},{"start":16789.315,"end":16798.44,"text":"以我屏東來講的話：我們幾次被人家講說：我們都做了可行性評估喔：做完以後院長說：啊這個經濟效益不足啦：開箱這集啦。你先說啊把它通過了我們通過一個限期本來你們講說十年現在限期十二年完成啊如果可行性評估出來了大家認為說沒有經濟效益欸。思考一下啦而且各個政黨全部在這個地﹖啊也選一個會去啊"},{"start":16819.103,"end":16821.546,"text":"民眾黨團提議．建請院會作成決議．於新"},{"start":16838.703,"end":16857.278,"text":"都是把他當成做說,都一定要做的,一定要過的。可是你這條文的設計在我看來就不合理嘛。沒有說要求去做可行性評估,就一定說我已經有寫進去了,然後我就是贏了。那就變成是你這個條文都是寫假的啊。你那個在寫假的啊。我們不是這樣說民眾黨你們最注重財政紀律的?"},{"start":16865.819,"end":16867.226,"text":"如果可信心評估出來．會說這個經濟效益不足"},{"start":16872.654,"end":16877.235,"text":"第三條本條例所稱環島高速鐵路範圍包括宜蘭縣、花蓮縣、臺東縣及屏東縣沿線規劃之用地取得開發及環境保護等公共運輸建設及生態保育系統。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":16897.564,"end":16917.143,"text":"各位黨團幹部我現在請教一下因為我要處理大家晚餐的事情我們下去訂晚餐那沒有意見的話我就宣布請總務員要訂晚餐了好不好大家有沒有寶貴意見有吃沒有吃都有所謂讓我能夠講話就好了好不好"},{"start":16921.81,"end":16946.64,"text":"麻煩總務部門統計一下現場的加班還有後面幕後工作夥伴有多少,請幫大家簡單定一點餐飲好了,好不好?一整門國那些的也...對,當然要,當然要,有些很辛苦。來,我們現在第一位請吳世耀委員發言。第三條,我看到條文的問題是跟第二條所寫的範圍,哪些縣市是重複的?"},{"start":16948.753,"end":16954.337,"text":"那第三條的內容我也覺得這個就條文的我不曉得他的動詞在講什麼"},{"start":16956.434,"end":16982.165,"text":"我覺得這個條文就是怪怪的是不是可以請那個提案委員說明一下為什麼第二條已經清楚的定義其實是四縣市那第三條又重複講了範圍又包括哪裡第二條跟第三條完全是重複的而且整個條文就沒有那個動詞我不知道他要ending句在那裡是什麼意思主席是不是要請提案委員說明啊提案委員從頭到尾都沒有說明條文我覺得這是很奇怪的事情"},{"start":16986.257,"end":16993.859,"text":"還有沒有其他哪位委員要發言?沒有,那我們就保留第四條。現在意見不統一,我們就保留。我們請宣讀第四條。第四條,本條立之主管機關為交通部。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":17008.631,"end":17029.525,"text":"原來這一條的條文就是我們之前認為更是即席以為不可原始的條文又有交通部又有國發會還有地方政府所以呢現在在修正條文裡頭OK把它聚焦就是單一部會叫做交通部那這樣改有沒有比較好我不知道因為這要尊重提案委員"},{"start":17030.265,"end":17051.422,"text":"所以我的建議還是我也要求一下提案委員來說明一下好嗎提案委員說明一下為什麼你們從交通部、國發會、縣市政府啊現在只濃縮成為交通部提案委員請說明好嗎主席同意就好了好不好第四條條文我沒有同意我沒有同意我們就保留提案委員說明一下提案委員說明啊問題啊不要讓好手機啦等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":17057.208,"end":17081.365,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行"},{"start":17088.329,"end":17095.616,"text":"五條交通部因於本條例通過後立即啟動可行性評估每半年內檢討一次並於一年內會同相關部會及縣市政府制定環島高速鐵路建設推動發展計劃綱要"},{"start":17112.438,"end":17127.678,"text":"配合施工工程進展需要,全部計畫之建設完成以不逾十二年為限,擬定綜合建設方案,其內容如下。一、方案目標及實施範圍。二、高速鐵路沿線建設規劃。三、土地徵收取得。"},{"start":17128.358,"end":17148.132,"text":"四、環境綠化保護．五、配合天然觀光資源開發．六、天然災害防治．七、分期實施計畫及執行分工．八、分期財務需求及經費來源．九、其他。前項所列可行性評估內容．應送交立法院進行審查。宣讀完畢。好,請吳司堯委員,請。"},{"start":17150.033,"end":17170.853,"text":"這一條是整個條例的重中之重。國民黨跟民眾黨也共提著修了原本的原始條文。那我想就是要清楚地來說明跟探究一下,任何一個交通建設的可行性評估,尤其像這個是兆元以上的,"},{"start":17171.474,"end":17188.419,"text":"那他的可行性評估一定要有評估才會有其成。」那我手上就剛好我特別去翻出來的台灣西部走廊高速鐵路綜合規劃這個是綜合規劃可行性評估是這一本先有這一本才有這一本"},{"start":17189.651,"end":17203.938,"text":"先有這一本民國七十六年,然後才有綜合規劃。」那就這個裡頭呢,一個可行性評估進入綜合規劃,它必須要有第一個,定線與車站,包括地址、水文,怎麼通過。"},{"start":17205.282,"end":17208.004,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":17224.238,"end":17232.067,"text":"然後呢建築理念風格尺寸那每個車站是單一開發還是聯合開發之可行性車站降物設備其他配備相關的規劃這個在車站規劃"},{"start":17237.27,"end":17249.538,"text":"再來是系統及設備。我們要採取哪一國的系統?什麼樣子的車廂採購?系統及設備這非常重要,包括車輛、耗製系統、電車線系統、電信與供電系統、電信系統、電力供應、軌道與倒閘、軌道結構、軌道鋪設。"},{"start":17259.145,"end":17281.03,"text":"高速運轉安全、車輛等等,這些都是系統及設備。」這個條文都沒有寫到哦。第六章要進入土木工程與安全設施。土木工程與安全設施包括橫斷面是不是有隧道,隧道要經過幾個,土方的工程,土壤的結構,整個地震的防護。"},{"start":17282.431,"end":17290.373,"text":"等安全設施外務干擾的偵測,因為如果新進一些山區可能會有我們的黑熊還是什麼的,這些都是必須要做的。」"},{"start":17291.698,"end":17302.241,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":17320.565,"end":17331.43,"text":"有多少土地是要去購地．有多少土地是要去拆遷、補償．用不同的財務試算．去做這些土地的徵得．還有援助民族地區．這些都不能夠跳躍的．好,環境影響評估．我就不贅述了．有自然環境、生態環境．社會環境、經濟環境等等"},{"start":17343.61,"end":17353.911,"text":"這些都是一個必要．後面當然還有營運端．好保握時間我就不多說．所以沒有這些清楚的．評估你怎麼定出十二年"},{"start":17355.296,"end":17375.206,"text":"原始是十年也許聽到我們的呼籲認為說好更嚴謹十二年可是你們的說法很粗糙當初我們的高鐵是花了二十年從可行性評估到最後的興建完成營運那你們的說法就只有一個現在時代進步了技術進步了所以就可以快速就可以快速就變成"},{"start":17378.305,"end":17406.439,"text":"高鐵可以二十年,現在就從十年變到十二年。」我也不知道這個怎麼算來的。好,那這個條文最可疑、最不可行的就最後一項。這些可行性評估要送立法院審查。所以,送審查那是什麼意思?審查完才可以通過嗎?大家都知道,如果以這些審查真的要送立法院審查的話,我想洪孟凱委員都在交通委員會,你相對都知道,"},{"start":17407.54,"end":17408.893,"text":"一本要審查多久。」"},{"start":17409.932,"end":17437.433,"text":"在立法院審議的期程不用算嗎?這會不會影響你們的十二年完工的預判呢?時程的預判呢?那基本上我是認為交通專業送到立法院審查這是很奇怪的事情就如同你們要把電價調漲要送立法院審查是一樣用政治零價專業的事情所以就以這個重中之重的環島高鐵的第五條樣樣相向都不合理不可行"},{"start":17438.482,"end":17460.153,"text":"然後我再一次請求提案委員請說明您的條文為什麼是這樣寫主席未要抗議提案委員又戴上他的耳機我不曉得在聽英文歌台語歌還是在聽什麼廣播電台提案委員戴上了他的耳機現在我叫呼喚他他也不看我一眼顯然就是沒有在聽音樂吧"},{"start":17461.574,"end":17484.197,"text":"這是尊重我們的協商嗎?提案委員提出一個要一兆以上的環島高鐵,拒絕說明條文。我們在認真的討論,他戴上他的耳機聽音樂,請問主席您要不要制止一下呢?這是立委之間對於自己職權的尊重吧?主席您是不是要制止一下呢?那請問提案委員要不要說明這麼重要的條文?"},{"start":17485.43,"end":17494.502,"text":"是不是應該說明?院長是不是應該說明?我會徵詢提案委員好不好,請稍待,但是其實你往左邊看一看"},{"start":17496.001,"end":17524.317,"text":"我不好意思講太多嘛。大家都傷感情嘛。好不好。他在找資料。我知道我知道。他在找資料。對。這邊也可能也在。不是。我都不講。因為他也有可能在找資料。所以我為什麼我都尊重每個委員。因為我不好講嘛。這事要委員你這樣講弄得我必須這樣。好不好提醒。提案委員要不要簡短二要的說明一下。謝謝。這五條說明一下嘛。因為好重要的條文。本席認為說他們今天這裡有誠意要協商。"},{"start":17525.694,"end":17547.817,"text":"不會說禮拜一鬧了一整天都沒有談這兩條今天兩點鐘開始到六點鐘才開始逐條而且逐條之前他們已經宣布了他們會申請大法官釋憲他們完全反對那完全反對我要跟他們說明什麼我不懂你完全反對都講明了你要釋憲"},{"start":17551.195,"end":17552.457,"text":"所以他們現在就是要過場,那過場就過場,就這樣好不好?"},{"start":17570.346,"end":17580.575,"text":"立法院還沒有說．從一開始協商都還沒有開始．就說我們要送大法官釋憲．這就是執政者的傲慢．都已經講成這樣．我們認為有一件不能送釋憲嗎．"},{"start":17597.132,"end":17600.733,"text":"院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":19165.274,"end":19166.675,"text":"各位黨團幹部,我們現在繼續開會,我們現在在討論到第五條。"},{"start":19177.213,"end":19201.42,"text":"院長,我們現在要第五還是要第六?第五嗎?第五條,我來跟各位協商代表來分享。因為第五條這邊提到了,當然提到一大堆,然後去限期十二年為限,然後去擬定綜合建設的一個方案,內容啪啦啪啦啪啦,寫了一大堆,然後所前向"},{"start":19202.18,"end":19215.4,"text":"所列的可信性評估．內容應該送立法院來進行審查。」審查這個語意也不清,這似乎就是說一定要通過立法院的審查,不然要審查意義在什麼地方。"},{"start":19217.577,"end":19246.676,"text":"既然去提到可行性評估．這就更凸顯了這個計劃的一個荒謬現在五二零以後叫做賴政府不是花蓮縣政府國會裡面當然現在新的國會當然有新的名義但總統其實他也有是新的未來的總統五二零就職以後也是新的名義就職以後叫做賴政府那所有的重大的一個建設"},{"start":19247.897,"end":19272.902,"text":"我相信發動是賴政府,不是花蓮政府。」那尤其是談到這個可行性評估這一點不要開玩笑不要開玩笑就是說我們都很清楚可行性評估裡面一定要講說一定要去審查一些比如說民間的參與的一個效率然後市場的可行性甚至於講到說我們要來蓋這一條"},{"start":19275.442,"end":19285.605,"text":"花東的高鐵到底技術可不可行．甚至於財務的可行性．法律的可行性．跟土地取得的可行性．跟環境影響．最後當然還會有公聽的問題．"},{"start":19290.627,"end":19308.064,"text":"那裡面涉及到最嚴重的問題就是說你到底在整個可行性評估裡面經濟可行性的一個評估裡面你總要去估看看它的成本到底是多少那你的收益的預測到底是多少把財務去做一個評估"},{"start":19309.803,"end":19322.985,"text":"這個有中華民國從中國國民黨從大陸中國退守到台灣重大建設一個健全的政府我們這幾年來全部都是這樣做馬政府如此"},{"start":19324.218,"end":19344.483,"text":"蔡政府如此。」我相信未來的政府也是一樣是如此那整部憲法五權憲法也是你們從中國那邊給人家搬過來那現在也徵修條文也沒有改幾條針對這部分也沒有去改那整個行政權的一個發動對整個重大建設的一個發動"},{"start":19346.043,"end":19364.09,"text":"那你們現在就變成在立法院因為你們多數你們認為說立法院可以做決定既然要談到可行性評估更可以凸顯到說你可行性評估完評估了你要工程概算整個工程概算那立法院反而是我們來做審查"},{"start":19366.544,"end":19372.067,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長"},{"start":19385.453,"end":19413.795,"text":"全部這些預算,你們都是反對到底。」這上一屆就是這樣子啊,就是這一張啊。你看這邊就講得很清楚,沒有可行性評估,不得偏對預算,當初你們就一直在反對的。那你們現在不是,你們現在是用捅包的一個方式,一個方式,想到哪裡就做到哪裡,愛怎麼做就怎麼做。一個血稅喔,你就把它看一個血稅喔,光他從開始開工,到他完工,"},{"start":19415.336,"end":19422.522,"text":"就花了一、二十年的一個時間,光一個學歲,十二點多公里而已啦。那我們現在環島高鐵,這個也欺世盜名啊,這個叫花東高鐵啦,就叫花東高鐵。花東高鐵好不好?花東高鐵當然會很好,但"},{"start":19433.69,"end":19454.601,"text":"推動的方式還是真的是要以逐案去做一個推動按照一般的一個重大工程的程序來不要去想說用跳躍的一個方式緊記我們立法院在審重大預算的時候任何的一個重大工程超過十億"},{"start":19456.226,"end":19480.016,"text":"都不是單一部會啊。你交通部要發個失意,就抱歉,沒有那麼容易,也不是你交通部。你要送到公共工程委員會去做同意啊。所以呢,省到這個第五條在講可行性評估的時候,更可以看到這個整部啊,整部一個條例裡面的一個荒謬性啊。財務評估到底是多少?"},{"start":19481.087,"end":19489.851,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":19498.504,"end":19501.146,"text":"謝謝莊瑞學委員的發言。接下來請吳思耀委員發言。副分級委員請準備。"},{"start":19528.184,"end":19547.457,"text":"那如何去落實永續經營的精神都要藉由事前的專業審查評估來納入導入那就包括要導入可行性評估環境影響評估環差評估財務評估等等之後呢有了這個永續經營灌入的"},{"start":19548.397,"end":19566.429,"text":"完整的評估之後才能夠循預算的騎乘來編列預算然後事後來落實配套這是最新的觀念讓交通建設能夠永續經營提供民眾穩定便捷安全的運輸系統這是李昆澤委員他表達他高度的遺憾"},{"start":19567.009,"end":19574.351,"text":"他作為立法院現今在交通委員會最最專業的委員又是此屆的召委又是負責審查環島高鐵條例的交通委員會的召委之一他認為他的意見沒有辦法在這裡納入他覺得非常遺憾請我無論如何一定要轉達"},{"start":19583.474,"end":19608.122,"text":"那另外呢因為這個條文是進入騎乘跟可行性評估剛休息的時間我再把這一本哈已經是納入這個國會圖書館珍藏的哈現行的台灣西部走廊高速鐵路可行性研究評估裡頭我再把就用其中一頁來論述哈那這是提案委員應當說明的提案委員又離場了哈也就是這有一個很清楚的年限表"},{"start":19609.366,"end":19638.442,"text":"第一階段要建立計畫管理制度第二階段運輸規劃第三階段是工程概念分析第四階段是經濟與財務第五階段當然要進入整個結論建議這樣是一個完整的交通的可行性評估所以它會落在所有的期程總共的年限第一階段要走幾年第二階段走幾年然後彼此還會有重疊的實現所以如果以現在的台灣的高鐵的話是花了十三年的可行性評估的"},{"start":19638.882,"end":19640.608,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":19645.1,"end":19669.82,"text":"需要來貼合來思考．如果沒有這樣的專業評估．我們如何在這個條文裡頭提出要十二年．所以再一次請求我們的提案委員．傅坤杰委員又離場了．這個條文他真的無論如何應當說明．為什麼原本是十年現在變十二年．那他的提案有沒有經過這樣子的一個嚴謹的程序．然後剛剛李坤澤召委所詢問的．"},{"start":19671.101,"end":19692.433,"text":"在傅文綺委員提案的環島高鐵,其實他應該正名叫做四線式高鐵,不是環島高鐵。那這個四線式高鐵有沒有能夠導入永續經營的理念呢?所以提案委員應當適宜,好嗎?那這個條文我沒有辦法支持,再次表達。謝謝吳司長的發言,等一下柯總統發言之前我補一句話。"},{"start":19694.074,"end":19717.773,"text":"李坤哲、趙偉剛剛講的那個他經驗之談也善意的提醒我們黨團幹部我想如果各位黨團都同意尤其村城兄也在這裡下一次我們到法案的時候我在發朝野協商開會通知的時候我一定會列入該法案相關的召集委員來這裡備詢一旦不是備詢對不起參與朝野協商那他"},{"start":19718.902,"end":19738.874,"text":"一旦來這裡開會的時候,他自然可以獲得發言,這樣又不用很尷尬的每一次還要爭取,好不好?如果各位黨團都同意的話,因為的確是有道理。好,好,因為不見得每個黨團幹部都通通的了解。好,那我們接下來請柯總召、傅坤祺總召請準備,請。好,韓院長。韓院長。對,好。"},{"start":19748.547,"end":19752.112,"text":"黨團．建請院會作成決議．於新黨黨團．建請院會作成決議．於新黨黨團提議．"},{"start":19766.511,"end":19782.043,"text":"來處於一個朝野商專門法案預算的朝野商出席人數到底是怎麼樣?應該怎麼樣?那個才是一個完整化的東西。尤其現在已經很多法案已經進入表決期。我們接下來我要提醒我們"},{"start":19783.599,"end":19801.741,"text":"國民社會預算也馬上要協商,還有特別預算、最佳預算也馬上協商。所以我們要把這個機制完整的建立,這個是比較重要。把這個建立以後,後面就照這個途徑去走。"},{"start":19803.897,"end":19829.952,"text":"這些都是行之有年,行之有年。徵罪的第五條,第五條我的看法是這樣,國民黨原來提案版本,這個是國安會,國安會,然後十年給它數年,那現在給它交付,交付。當然不可能這麼大的預算,這麼大的一個規劃是國安會所能完成的。"},{"start":19831.161,"end":19853.376,"text":"我們看過去高鐵從民國七十六年開始做可信心評估做了三年到七十九年七十九年以後到八十一年就是兩年時間可信評估通過以後才被核定然後開始八十八年的時候開始動工"},{"start":19856.515,"end":19863.589,"text":"經過七年,經過到九十六年才完工所以這個整個一趟走二十年"},{"start":19864.81,"end":19892.743,"text":"然後我們現在既然把這個條文改回前向所略可疑性評估,面容應送立法院予以審查。這個前向都是本來吳志堯所強的,包括方案目標十四期,延遲規劃,物力增收等等,立法保護等等,總共有九款,還有其他。"},{"start":19893.823,"end":19909.476,"text":"所以這個條文就是把這個突然加上這個東西這個是完全毫無政治介入毫無專業因為好委員不可能有能力去審查這代表是怎麼樣能力的政治周秀舞臺要是國民黨會有這種這種發想的話"},{"start":19916.379,"end":19939.355,"text":"這個選項所謂的肯定評估一送一完就審查。啊審查的結果呢?過與不過?與何?當然是國會的表決嘛。但是國民黨就想說,現在藍白合起來,國會過半。這個東西就用政治來處理表決這個就好了。這個是把招致心路人皆知。"},{"start":19940.39,"end":19966.175,"text":"和這個題目有關的就是說．我們第一次朝野商有關立法院決議案．動盪墊架、動盪墊架。民眾黨各有一個動盪墊架。但是民眾黨都提議一個叫章化軍艇進展案．一個浮華圖。那個浮華圖大家都知道．章化在九座浮華圖。我們過個季裡面。"},{"start":19967.475,"end":19995.115,"text":"那再干預紅花爐當然當地反對嘛那反對的時候大家都知道不應該再蓋但是紅花窗用一個政治意義介入就是提一個一個結案在立法院表決就是要立即停工就是政治意義介入嘛這個所有的蓋的下幹不下這個合約依照合約走有一個規定這個下去就把它停掉"},{"start":19996.525,"end":20008.332,"text":"只要,就像一樣的,這種邏輯就是一樣,用現在藍白國會各辦介入所欲卻。這是一個非常荒謬而且惡質的一個寫法。"},{"start":20009.878,"end":20027.533,"text":"高鐵這麼專業的沒有一個立法委員搞得懂。都要經過繁長的過程。為了想一想,高鐵到一半的時候曾經才會發生問題,再修改郵遞條例,"},{"start":20030.915,"end":20047.972,"text":"本來政府出資不能只有25,還要49,讓政府多出資,然後還有放寬股介入、投入,才能夠把他財富稍微改善做得下去,那這個事情修這個東西的時候還在另外一邊脫鉤表決。"},{"start":20049.488,"end":20070.806,"text":"但是這個還是高鐵也蓋不下去。還是蓋不下去。最後在馬英九下台以前,時任人某,時任黨毛澤國,他本身是政府部長啊。所以高鐵怎麼辦?那時候有一個採改計畫,但那採改計畫必須在立法院通過。"},{"start":20072.386,"end":20088.906,"text":"但是呢,所有的立法委員都反對。不管朝委的立法委員都反對。但是我獨排綜藝。我說這個東西,這樣子的話,高鐵停下來以後,是造成整個交通黑暗區非常嚴重。"},{"start":20089.947,"end":20103.873,"text":"所以後來才有,潘志祥以後,董事長以後招募,劉慧淇董事長,他以前是中國的總經理,不過他那個人蠻專業的,我和他好好合作,把這個高鐵的擇救時間拉長。"},{"start":20105.794,"end":20120.024,"text":"中國國民黨黨團提議：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院長施政方針報告前："},{"start":20121.045,"end":20130.409,"text":"這個整個高鐵,坦白講,曾經發生過高鐵蓋一半的時候,賴清德總統說這個以後變成廢鐵。走過這樣的高鐵這麼長的時間,前陣子我碰到殷琦董事長,他要寫高鐵的一個回憶錄,但是後來他覺得寫完不肯出版。"},{"start":20145.374,"end":20174.654,"text":"為什麼?他是用,到底是這麼一個複雜的東西,有無道公司介入,有包機電,有包主婦的,等等。這樣行行的時候,所以要從他的角度看,他覺得北韓人不一定相信。從這裡就是看得出來,我們這個條文齁,第五條這個條文齁,把他全部交給立法院來審議,就是表示政治要介入。"},{"start":20175.414,"end":20177.655,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告及本院配合延會相關事宜。」相關事宜。"},{"start":20201.202,"end":20226.527,"text":"謝謝柯建民總召的發言。專委員瑞雄您還要再發言嗎?我想再發言一下因為這個重大的建設我知道對花東很重要但是我還是要再次的再強調就是說一個重大工程重大計畫的一個提出真的是要審慎而且不是用這樣的一個立法的一個方式"},{"start":20227.687,"end":20242.94,"text":"光在藍白合作提出這個法案．你看從主管機關．從到底要不要可行性評估．他去做去做修正了．要去做可行性評估．其實現在就可以我也贊成"},{"start":20244.844,"end":20263.036,"text":"我贊成去做可行性評估,但是可行性評估不是立法院到最後來審查。可行性評估做了以後,你就必須要去概估這個工程的一個預算到底有多少,這個院長你當過市長你會很清楚。我去可行性評估啦!"},{"start":20266.557,"end":20295.387,"text":"我認為說技術上可行我認為土地取得也都沒有問題我認為這個環評也會通過因為環評也會同期也可以同期來自己的來一起一起來做但是可行性評估可能會比環評會更快完成可是重點來啦重點就是說我可行性評估出來的過程裡面我必須要去概括估這個預算假設我估出來是一兆不要說兩兆估出來是一兆"},{"start":20297.065,"end":20306.934,"text":"你估出來以後你到最後你說好那我就要有這個整個綜合規劃那我這個綜合規劃我不能去發包請這些專業機構去發包發包完以後說綜合規劃出來了要有人合併"},{"start":20313.223,"end":20328.138,"text":"那我請問是賴政府來核定還是你立法院來核定你就把整個政府從有政府到現在的一個重大公共工程建設你全部把它給顛覆掉了我再次強調的就是說各縣市我們都知道他們想要有重大建設這個是好事那來做可行性評估這個其實都可以支持"},{"start":20337.267,"end":20346.294,"text":"可是呢你現在不是要好像要用因為我在立法院人數比較多我就用通過一個條例把你給框住了你非做不可真的是這樣子嗎"},{"start":20348.12,"end":20348.7,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":20378.286,"end":20379.828,"text":"任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前。"},{"start":20393.45,"end":20418.798,"text":"這個院長的耐心真的讓我們很佩服啊。同樣的劉森基啊,從禮拜一的協商已經轉了大概一百多次,今天又持續轉了。他們三位的發言完全沒有改變。但是可以每一次...你就亂講啦,我就有意見。請尊重我的發言。你就有意見啦。待會你有意見,你待會再講。你就亂講啊。我先講,待會你再講再講。你就亂講啊。因為你要點名我嘛。你剛剛有沒有點名我?我說花蓮,我沒有講李富坤祺好不好?"},{"start":20421.459,"end":20430.527,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長"},{"start":20450.399,"end":20462.269,"text":"他們從頭到尾就在羞辱。羞辱好像不應該去做這樣的環島高鐵。也羞辱了韓院長今年在二月份告訴"},{"start":20463.946,"end":20483.68,"text":"陳建仁院長,這就是台灣已經是這麼先進的國家,早就該做的事情,但是政府就是不願意做,所以國會議員本來就應該要耳提面面告訴政府必須要來做這個事情,過去的條例,過去的條例本來就有這些條例,我們一再強調"},{"start":20485.659,"end":20494.131,"text":"我不願意把錄音機再轉一次但他們轉了一百多次而且不斷的醜化不斷的醜化用民進黨一貫的詐騙的方式不斷的誤導在講這個細節"},{"start":20499.963,"end":20504.747,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於"},{"start":20523.463,"end":20550.12,"text":"在這裡詐騙所有在這裡詐騙所有不懂的人我們要再次強調條例過了以後交通部該怎麼做他會循序漸進去做這些都是一個基本的常識你不用在那邊專程錄影啊真是都有錄影啊你民進黨的助理不用在那邊這個都有啦不用在那邊假裝在那邊錄影這個上網通通都有啦不用在那邊故意在那邊錄影我要特別強調"},{"start":20552.101,"end":20573.892,"text":"新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施"},{"start":20578.991,"end":20588.765,"text":"在立法院發聲過提出的這些特別條例,不管是在民國九十年十月十一號三讀通過,"},{"start":20590.123,"end":20615.176,"text":"廖學廣委員所提出的《基隆河流域整治特別條例》通過了以後,行政院也執行了。剛剛也講到了,林鄭峰委員所提的,包括40個委員連署,民進黨也有,石門水庫及集水區整治特別條例,在95年1月13日三讀通過,行政院也執行了。當然,可能當時的政府"},{"start":20616.527,"end":20639.773,"text":"是可以順應國會．國會提醒他有些沒做到的事．要盡快積極的來做．所以當時的政府有做．可能沒有像現在如此的傲慢．如此的跋扈．能夠在這裡．每一條用同樣的方式都罵一次．就是很簡單．今天我認為他們到今天為止．"},{"start":20641.499,"end":20664.319,"text":"把所有不應該討論的細項,這都應該交通部專業去處理的。」故意在這裡不斷的repeat。重點就是要不斷的把在野黨汙名化。在野黨醜化。他們三個人有講過多少次?什麼我跟黃國昌怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣?從頭到尾三個人講了多少次?"},{"start":20665.353,"end":20688.648,"text":"民眾黨團提議．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院長施政方針報告前�"},{"start":20690.578,"end":20699.551,"text":"也公然恐嚇我們,但是這是回應廣大民意我們必須要做的事情。我們也不會接受任何的賄賂,任何的交換條件,"},{"start":20701.48,"end":20730.122,"text":"用什麼地方的建設來交換明天不要審查國會改革相關的法令那不可能的事情那不可能的事國家至上國會改革是絕對重中之重我們一定要來進行我想今天就是要故意拖延時間我覺得因為今天柯總召已經一語道破了就即便立法院三讀通過他們要提釋憲他們也不會做我覺得在這裡"},{"start":20731.443,"end":20755.371,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商新任行政院院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續�"},{"start":20759.946,"end":20763.732,"text":"花費很大的周章來保護院長．讓國會的尊嚴．一事能夠順暢．"},{"start":20767.267,"end":20793.653,"text":"我們要再次強調,國民黨絕對有決心,讓陽光照進來。我想是不是院長,他們不斷的那種留聲機,不斷的一直repeat repeat 的,人身攻擊,然後對建設的攻擊。我覺得你完全喪失啊,所謂主導討論。你表達你的意見不願意,你不同意就算了。對不對?但是不是每一條都要做人身攻擊。是不是院長就直接裁審好了?"},{"start":20795.188,"end":20799.451,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":20825.708,"end":20848.127,"text":"我還是拜託他兩、二加一。」這個也回應了莊惠雄委員一一之問我一一之問我說我對高鐵怎麼把它當成盲腸我一個字都不說因為過兩天卓鴻泰院長要來拜訪我一樣環島高鐵東部台灣跟西部台灣要連成一條線讓整個台灣生命力放出來第三個就是下一代一定要中英文雙語全面實施"},{"start":20849.248,"end":20865.815,"text":"這個我一定會跟卓榮泰院長報告所以專業協會委員一直說我好像對於高屏這一段高鐵看為盲腸我都糊塗了我總是想把台灣連成一條線我一併做一個澄清你大概講了五六次我都沒有回話所以過幾天卓院長來我會重申一遍我的理想"},{"start":20867.23,"end":20884.676,"text":"我知道。但是呢,整個台灣連成一條線,生命力放出來,這是我個人期待。高鐵做完的時候我找到去西方極樂世界報到啦,開玩笑。但是,我們要為子孫留一些東西。所以我跟陳建成院長鼓勵,我也希望卓院長能夠接納。那這些法條,"},{"start":20885.416,"end":20912.673,"text":"都是我們要照部來審是我們立法院的權責我沒有別的意思所以我盡可能維持公平我要把我心裡的話也跟各位黨團幹部來報告所以第四條、第五條我們就一樣保留當然今天也辛苦了大家真的很累了我們就留待下次協商。等一下我講給端端講。好,我們散會。一會兒再講。陳志遠院長昨天在報紙上講很清楚要尊重行政權啦你搞一個問題在那邊先挖個樓局不衝再胡說八道"},{"start":20917.961,"end":20919.198,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．三、繼續研商"}]}},{"id":"15923","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15923","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc30a6515091f25b8690a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be45f3ea02e260725575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-16","start_time":"2024-05-16T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-16T14:22:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":21090,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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案。"},{"start":488.473,"end":510.511,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":514.94,"end":541.453,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期"},{"start":543.677,"end":569.235,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第25次全體委員會第26次全體委員會第27次全體委員會第28次全體委員會第29次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第31次全體委員會第32次全體委員會第33次全體委員會第33次全體委員會第34次全體委員會第35次全體委員會第36次全體委員會第36次全體委員會第37次全體委員會第38次全體委員會第38次全體委員會第39次全體委員會第40次全體委員會第40次全體委員會"},{"start":570.339,"end":595.568,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第2次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第2次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":601.719,"end":602.766,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":609.268,"end":636.664,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":638.712,"end":663.791,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期"},{"start":664.77,"end":689.93,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華"},{"start":691.22,"end":710.539,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":724.758,"end":736.377,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":746.681,"end":760.03,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具"},{"start":764.889,"end":787.539,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":790.998,"end":791.72,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":810.33,"end":836.123,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":837.263,"end":865.234,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制"},{"start":874.48,"end":888.79,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":901.34,"end":928.143,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期"},{"start":935.542,"end":939.81,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1956.844,"end":1983.992,"text":"報告委員會初席委員12人已讀法定人數請主席宣布開會好各位早安好那我們現在開始開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國一百十三年五月十五日星期三上午九十四分至下午一時三十五分地點本院紅樓302會議室初席委員黃委員國昌等十三人"},{"start":1984.292,"end":1997.182,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會議．"},{"start":2000.925,"end":2017.175,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員王國昌等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員王國昌等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員王國昌等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員王國昌等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員王國昌等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十"},{"start":2032.28,"end":2036.302,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2057.955,"end":2086.191,"text":"所以呃法務部啊因為那個早上早上蔡部長他另有公務所以由黃次長代表那法務部黃次長檢察師副司長簡美惠檢察師主任檢察官劉怡婷那我摺接下來摺要介紹好了廉政署署長莊榮松司法院刑事廳副廳長"},{"start":2088.329,"end":2093.698,"text":"陳信啟、監察院監察業務處處長王貞華、權敘部法規司副司長藍夏瑩、"},{"start":2101.707,"end":2117.831,"text":"保訓會保障處專委陳志豪內政部民政檢任視察陳玉京國防部政風視檢任視察張湘中財政部政風處長張宏俊教育部政風處副處長黃信貞"},{"start":2123.387,"end":2145.324,"text":"經濟部制裁局國際事務及法務室主任何燦成勞動部勞動條件就業平等司副司長王金榮衛生福利部政防組組長舉嘉景後面我就"},{"start":2147.128,"end":2151.017,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":2158.746,"end":2167.992,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案等16案及第二案并案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具接避者保護法草案等7案。"},{"start":2181.773,"end":2198.522,"text":"現在我們進行提案說明及報告現在進行提案說明請第一位提案人洪孟楷委員進行提案說明時間3分鐘感謝主席"},{"start":2199.915,"end":2222.533,"text":"人民有三苦低薪通膨貧富差距擴大還有詐騙橫行這是現在我們看到台灣社會裡面人民普遍民眾一般對於社會的亂象的苦人民三苦我們要把它解決尤其是近年來我國的詐騙犯罪猖狂去年民眾被詐騙的金額累積高達88.78億"},{"start":2225.075,"end":2236.8,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":2251.187,"end":2264.157,"text":"三三九之四條加重詐欺罪以及吹哨者保護法。」等一下吹哨者保護法我們也會一起討論因為這是過去第九屆第十屆各黨團都有提出來版本但沒想到"},{"start":2264.656,"end":2290.832,"text":"我們執政的行政院遲遲沒有拿出相關的院版但是我們要說人民真的沒有辦法再等下去了考量法院的實務以及法官量刑慣例未能掌握犯罪源頭被告具弱勢者身份等形成詐騙輕刑化的現象這是現在大家普遍的現象很多國人都講為什麼詐騙犯一犯再犯"},{"start":2292.26,"end":2302.503,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法"},{"start":2312.062,"end":2320.851,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":2329.941,"end":2343.185,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":2358.717,"end":2387.809,"text":"加重詐欺處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑並科罰金一百萬以下的罰金改為處三年以上七年以下並科五百萬元以下罰金並且增列第一項第五款犯罪所得達一百萬以上在加重詐欺的法定情形我們要用嚴正的態度警告詐欺犯警告犯罪者你敢犯我們就敢辦你敢犯我們就敢判"},{"start":2388.803,"end":2407.018,"text":"用嚴正重罰來讓犯罪者要付出應有的代價也還給我們國人一個相對治安清白的環境解決人民所苦低薪通膨貧富差距擴大以及詐騙橫行我們從詐騙橫行打擊詐騙開始做起謝謝好謝謝那接下來我們請徐姓委員提案說明"},{"start":2428.832,"end":2436.1,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案本席提案說明如下"},{"start":2437.569,"end":2441.294,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2456.391,"end":2466.582,"text":"年十一月間聯邦銀行行員涉嫌勾結詐騙集團另外一百一十二年六月間又因為詐騙集團屢傳詐騙簡訊昭庭話就以高價利誘第二類電信公司協助發詐騙的簡訊"},{"start":2478.012,"end":2483.718,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2495.712,"end":2512.529,"text":"金融機構電信業者負責人或從業人員勾結詐騙集團的案例層出不窮,加上金融機構電信事業的職業性質容易獲取民眾的信任,謀取詐欺的機會大為增加。"},{"start":2515.572,"end":2533.298,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委"},{"start":2540.401,"end":2559.066,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．"},{"start":2565.007,"end":2584.4,"text":"電信管理法第三條定義之電信事業．上述兩種事業的負責人或從業人員都有機會持有客戶個人的資料而有機會犯詐欺罪所以敬請各位委員支持本席的提案感謝謝謝好謝謝那我們先確認議事錄上次會議議事錄有無錯或遺漏"},{"start":2594.239,"end":2600.381,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。」案。公益戒閉不等於檢舉為政府機關跟民間單位的內部人員"},{"start":2619.514,"end":2624.556,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2646.617,"end":2656.685,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":2665.812,"end":2693.051,"text":"第二明確定定受理公益揭弊機關的任務以國家機密保護法機密等級做三級分工不是隨便跟外部做檢舉那第三外部揭弊機制確保不次案揭弊者於二十日內未獲受理調查的通知受理調查後六個月內未獲調查結果的通知"},{"start":2693.524,"end":2698.206,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2719.369,"end":2735.454,"text":"公益通報者保護官的制度第七強化接避者的保護包括身份的資料保密回復原狀補償金施法免責接避獎金不得扣押"},{"start":2736.169,"end":2754.259,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":2767.263,"end":2787.829,"text":"好謝謝那接下來我們請民眾黨團代表紅宮委員國昌進行提案說明黃委員請問你是要說明兩岸還是一岸兩岸的話那我給你時間長一點6分鐘"},{"start":2799.471,"end":2827.991,"text":"主席各位委員兩千四百七十天兩千四百七十天這是在2017年8月12日全國司法改革會議總結會議到今天間隔的時間兩千四百七十天"},{"start":2829.411,"end":2832.613,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":2849.639,"end":2863.252,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2873.561,"end":2902.21,"text":"公益階幣保護法 請問這一部公益階幣保護法到底在哪裡我今年回到立法院在第一次行政院院長總質詢的時候我就請教一下我們陳建仁院長行政院版的吹哨者保護法什麼時候要交出來他告訴台灣社會"},{"start":2903.797,"end":2912.079,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2930.578,"end":2958.608,"text":"任何一個文明法治的國家都知道制定吹哨者保護機制的重要性我們不能夠讓勇敢要站出來揭發弊案的人竟然要面對來自於權貴來自於財團來自於那些坐監犯科的人他們無止盡的追殺"},{"start":2960.626,"end":2989.431,"text":"在我國的歷史上吹哨者的血淚斑斑有人被殺有人家破人亡有人整個人生都毀了但是我們的政府無動於衷提不出一步吹哨者保護法出來今天非常感謝我們的召委吳宗憲聽到社會各界殷切的期盼"},{"start":2990.846,"end":3015.72,"text":"終於把吹哨者保護法排上一層。台灣制定吹哨者保護法,不僅僅是我們向文明社會所做下的莊嚴承諾,更是我們要清楚地告訴全國人民,這一個社會不能讓壞人精神抖擻,好人卻已經疲憊。"},{"start":3017.608,"end":3042.457,"text":"今天要提的第二個法案是有關於加重詐欺罪刑法三百三十九條之四的規定我曾經以台版柬埔寨首腦藍道在司法法制委員會的公聽會當過例子這一位加入了黑幫的詐騙組織"},{"start":3047.461,"end":3076.107,"text":"犯下三十一個加重詐欺罪。」我們的政府告訴人民加重詐欺的法定刑是一年以上七年以下但有沒有人可以解釋為什麼犯下三十一個加重詐欺罪的難道他一天的勞都沒有做他一天的勞都沒有做"},{"start":3077.935,"end":3105.692,"text":"在我們層層法律的解釋適用下十二個加重詐欺罪宣告刑六年執行刑剩下十個月最後一服勞動一天勞動沒有做另外犯的十九個加重詐欺罪宣告刑二十一年"},{"start":3107.405,"end":3136.165,"text":"執行刑兩年最後宣告緩刑一個牢也沒有做這樣的司法實務這樣的刑事司法我們在傳遞給社會傳遞給我們的年輕人什麼樣子的訊息太好賺了太好賺了犯罪的成本趨近於零"},{"start":3138.615,"end":3165.41,"text":"我不去參加詐騙集團有什麼比這個更有前途的這位難道一路在我們的刑事司法政策下從詐騙集團的小弟一步一步走到首腦最後犯下令人髮指的台版柬埔寨這樣的案件不需要我們的政府痛定思痛嗎"},{"start":3168.786,"end":3189.927,"text":"我要特別說明的是在我國的司法實務上所出現最荒謬的狀況是當如果是用犯罪組織的形態來去進行詐欺的行為的時候我們組織犯罪防治條例是源自於美國的RICO法案"},{"start":3190.973,"end":3217.514,"text":"在美國的RICO法案之下如果是以組織的形態去進行特定的犯罪行為那個是刑度啊一下子就拉高為什麼因為從犯罪本身行為的罪質可責性會造成對法律的侵害組織犯罪比個人犯罪也好三人同夥去犯也好"},{"start":3218.629,"end":3243.812,"text":"他嚴重的懲處嚴重太多了但在我國目前刑事司法的操作下透過想像競合從一種手段組織犯罪不用論直接論三百三十九條之四這是長久以來我國法院操作的現狀也是我國目前刑事司法"},{"start":3245.168,"end":3257.085,"text":"在實踐上為什麼沒有辦法有效的打擊透過組織犯罪的形態來進行詐騙行為最深層的原因也正是因為這個樣子台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3260.256,"end":3270.541,"text":"我們今天一方面針對吹哨者保護法提出黨團的版本另外一方面針對犯罪組織進行詐騙行為我們認為絕對不能再讓他想像淨和掉"},{"start":3276.704,"end":3303.193,"text":"絕對不能再讓他透過想像競合的抽象法律概念在我們的刑事司法制度當中把他的罪責把他的惡行把他的失害全部都蒸發掉所以我們透過三百三十九條之四條文的修訂希望能夠大幅加重處罰犯罪組織進行詐騙的行為敬請各位委員支持以上謝謝"},{"start":3306.191,"end":3328.741,"text":"謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行提案說明反制詐騙人人有責現在詐騙已經是嚴重到變成國安問題"},{"start":3330.418,"end":3335.242,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3359.684,"end":3365.109,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3388.035,"end":3391.317,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3412.918,"end":3428.433,"text":"天下父母親關心責亂所以他誤信了被詐騙了一百多萬可是我們的反制詐騙的重要機關之一NCC的副主委未來也可能是最高的這個NCC的主委"},{"start":3430.56,"end":3450.355,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":3458.721,"end":3467.212,"text":"這個對於刑度的部分有一些不同的意見當然我知道縱刑也不一定能夠遏阻現在詐騙的氾濫"},{"start":3470.044,"end":3478.453,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":3490.826,"end":3519.139,"text":"當然刑度的加重不是萬靈丹啦這點我也相信我也認同啦可是問題是除了刑度加重之外到現在為止我們政府到底拿出了什麼樣的一個方式什麼樣的一個作為什麼樣一個成績來阻惡現在不斷翻倍翻倍的詐騙的一個案件不斷的危害到我們所有老百姓的一個詐騙的案件我沒有看到政府拿出對策出來啊"},{"start":3520.769,"end":3529.013,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3565.612,"end":3590.418,"text":"本席針對刑法第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之三以及三百三十九條第四條文提出修正草案。那麼基於這幾年來詐欺尤其是投資詐欺造成對我們社會以及受害者的影響實在是越來越重越來越離譜"},{"start":3592.153,"end":3609.012,"text":"所以本席認為非加以重刑提高刑責否則無以防範那麼詐欺行為之刑期增加分別在三百"},{"start":3610.771,"end":3625.94,"text":"三十九條提高到一年以上七年以下三百三十九條之三十年以下最重要在投資詐欺的部分三百三十九條之四三年以上"},{"start":3628.18,"end":3641.326,"text":"十年以下之徒刑。」我特別強調投資詐欺的原因是因為投資詐欺近年來的案件已經高達我舉112年竟然高達11775件那麼他詐欺的金額將近40億了"},{"start":3653.69,"end":3656.416,"text":"保證保證超過40億達53.7億53.7億是所有詐欺案件總和加起來還不到"},{"start":3666.107,"end":3668.088,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3692.705,"end":3695.406,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3711.553,"end":3736.273,"text":"三百三十九條之四也同樣投資詐欺這一項目我們也加入在三人以上共同販資這一個部分的刑期的加重因為這是比照我們刑法另外有一個法案那麼就是主持犯罪條例那這是非常有道理的因為現在的詐欺已經非一人兩人去"},{"start":3739.48,"end":3747.264,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":3763.914,"end":3784.748,"text":"所以這樣子的詐欺行為已經遍及於現在超過百分之九十以上的詐欺案件所以我們認為除以三年以上十年以下提高這個刑責是當務之急那以上我做簡單的報告跟說明謝謝下一位我們請黃建豪委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3803.328,"end":3819.56,"text":"主席各位委員本期間提出的是也是刑法339條之四修正草案主要也是針對這個詐欺罪我們希望從一年以上七年以下有期徒刑提高到三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":3820.16,"end":3839.136,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會主席等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會主席等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會主席等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":3840.757,"end":3863.635,"text":"在行政院洗鞋房子辦公室的報告裡面平均詐欺犯最所得每年高達的700億元。700億元我想也深刻的影響了我國的經濟金融秩序。另外在三十九條之四裡面也包含了以電腦合成或其他科技方法製作關於他人的不實影像。我想隨著AI科技的發展之後"},{"start":3864.275,"end":3868.742,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":3879.938,"end":3892.042,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":3907.026,"end":3913.174,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":3923.027,"end":3926.949,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":3940.536,"end":3947.082,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":3965.458,"end":3987.57,"text":"政官世界各民主先進國家對於詐欺罪的判刑其實遠遠超過臺灣許多所以我想臺灣要擠身先進民主國家之列要徹底的解決嚴懲詐欺問題就應該提高刑法在後端在追究責任的時候對於詐欺犯罪要提高他的罪責來增加嚇阻作用"},{"start":3987.81,"end":4009.423,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":4024.386,"end":4026.048,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4033.379,"end":4041.963,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":4061.351,"end":4072.113,"text":"那我們自己的這個重視泄密的部分主要是因為我們發現即使在講求偵查不公開的檢方法務部"},{"start":4073.092,"end":4095.193,"text":"連政署現在幾乎是偵查大公開那有一些雜誌甚至已經變成了法務部的法務部公報就只要有重大案件隔天或同一個禮拜該週刊就會把完整詳細的內容全部會公布在外也就是說在這偵查大公開的時代我們為了保障接避者"},{"start":4096.323,"end":4104.968,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":4121.118,"end":4124.401,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4148.28,"end":4154.935,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．"},{"start":4155.851,"end":4164.494,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":4195.162,"end":4201.269,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":4213.957,"end":4228.413,"text":"主席各位委員報告主席是否本部現在經驗監督院審查部分兩部分是否本人先就這一個刑法三十九之四修正草案部分提出報告另外有關接濟者保護法草案部分另外由我們廉政署署長來報告好謝謝委員"},{"start":4233.796,"end":4255.778,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士大家好今天奉邀就這一個中華民國刑法三十九條之四修正草案的部分列席報告並被質詢那為了完善我國打詐專法及執法的相關法規行政院已經在今年的5月9號院會通過了一個詐欺犯罪危害條例"},{"start":4257.099,"end":4284.465,"text":"那其中關於這個今天審查有關的部分懲詐的部分呢在該條例裡面已經就高額的詐欺以及複合式的詐欺犯罪以及在境外對境內的詐欺犯罪已經提高了相關刑法的刑度同時也增加了有關於自守自白減輕責任的規定而且提高了假釋門檻以及不得假釋的相關規定而且為了徹底剝奪犯罪所得"},{"start":4285.265,"end":4286.568,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4292.403,"end":4315.508,"text":"那今天各位委員所提的修法的目的本部均表贊同那其中有關各委員提高行動提高行動修正草案的部分在這個行政院的所通過的這個組織犯罪條例裡面提高行動部分也相關的明定那以下就各委員的版本簡單的回應如下"},{"start":4316.548,"end":4330.716,"text":"那第一個有關於提高法定刑的部分那提高法定刑的部分修刑法339之四或339條如果沒有區分整個個案的情節餘力的加重詐欺的法定刑度"},{"start":4331.556,"end":4347.31,"text":"那會造成一些犯罪情節事實上比較輕微而且犯罪所得比較低的個案的特殊狀況之下於律處與相同的刑責這是不是符合罪責相當性原則敬請再酌另外由版本提到有"},{"start":4347.81,"end":4366.155,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":4375.558,"end":4382.241,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":4390.708,"end":4406.676,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":4411.138,"end":4415.861,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":4438.433,"end":4455.545,"text":"另外有關這個有提到這個是不是的同一行為構成詐欺或組織犯罪條例然後作為排除想像競合犯的規定做一個獨立刑法的規定本不是認為我們現行刑法裡面有關於想像競合犯的規定到底"},{"start":4456.566,"end":4477.004,"text":"是要加重二分之一或者要廢除或者如同這個草案所提的另外定一個獨立的刑法規定用加重刑法來處理這可以再討論以上是本部就各委員版的意見以上補充謝謝好謝謝那第二案的部分我們請防火部廉政署莊署長報告"},{"start":4483.112,"end":4501.475,"text":"主席委員還有與會的先進大家好有關今天排整的這個接避法草案今天總共有廖偉翔等6名委員還有民眾黨團的這個版本那以下請就推動接避者保護法的立法策略及內容來進行報告進行指教"},{"start":4502.176,"end":4518.202,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":4528.285,"end":4534.088,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":4556.019,"end":4574.632,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九"},{"start":4576.206,"end":4598.852,"text":"民眾對於公部門的青年要求是高於私部門的,而且公部門目前的制度比較完善,他來推動的話爭議會比較低。第三點,經過盤點私部門的單行法規,現在已經有很多有納入的吹哨條款,那涵蓋有身份保密,有監區獎金,有人身的保護,還有工作權益的保障,還有先例罰則等等,並不是沒有保護。"},{"start":4600.552,"end":4626.027,"text":"第四點,行政院在112年的3月23日在中央廉政委員會裡面有決議要來強化四部門行政指導的措施,有核定一個行政院推動接避者保護專案,那目前推動的成效也不錯。繼以上的理由,經過行政院在113年的2月23日邀請相關機關召開第12次的審查會後,調整立法策略為公私分流,立法行政雙軌並行,"},{"start":4627.328,"end":4636.877,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4648.847,"end":4658.694,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4678.046,"end":4680.787,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":4694.915,"end":4697.437,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":4714.932,"end":4744.372,"text":"那第七點接避者在接避的時候內容涉及因保密的事項不負泄密的責任。第八據公務員身份的接避者因接避內容這貪污行為貪污行為受免刑的宣告的時候得申請在任公職。那第九人身保護的部分就依正人保護法的規定。第十是與報復性的行為之人一起身份應予懲處懲戒或者是採取罰款。那如果另外涉及刑事責任的話就加重刑責。"},{"start":4745.692,"end":4749.193,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":4772.145,"end":4781.268,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":4792.657,"end":4819.386,"text":"因為今天人數較多所以本會委員勳答時間8分鐘非本會委員勳答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言對啊你們可以換我如果有需要"},{"start":4823.063,"end":4826.746,"text":"好那接下來我們先請謝榮介委員發言感謝主席齁這個對於這個潔癖者的保護法啦個人的騙人在這裡所有的提案執政黨啊"},{"start":4852.793,"end":4873.825,"text":"本來就要負起非常重要的責任,提出版本。剛才韓國雄委員在這裡說兩千多天的日子過去,那麼過去的約束及承諾,包括在離空一千年內,我們的蔡總統,她也有承諾說要頂這個法,到今天已經要下臨了。"},{"start":4879.124,"end":4891.013,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":4908.479,"end":4913.283,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4937.284,"end":4945.61,"text":"中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華"},{"start":4965.436,"end":4992.668,"text":"今天這個事情我看所有的版本裡面尤其牽涉到蘇博文的部分很大那麼部分大小呢若要再要求主管政府及主管機關要再設立其他的單位我看可能要存很多人力那麼這是不是有一個適當的辦法尤其我理想新的政府就要集結"},{"start":4994.514,"end":5001.858,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":5021.254,"end":5035.098,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":5051.42,"end":5061.945,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華"},{"start":5080.302,"end":5093.189,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":5108.015,"end":5113.256,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":5136.089,"end":5138.732,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5161.718,"end":5167.883,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":5182.421,"end":5190.127,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":5211.065,"end":5239.07,"text":"委員馬有請市長跟署長委員好市長好我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情我想對我如果說很遺憾又再看到你你可能會誤會但我不是那個意思"},{"start":5239.912,"end":5263.2,"text":"那我也可以理解我們現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嗎?沒錯那我也不會強求那我想先請教一下兩位都會留任嗎?對兩位沒有不敬的意思因為我在想說我們今天要進行法學的探討還是要政策的探討"},{"start":5264.52,"end":5288.02,"text":"因為事務官留任長官決定OK好沒有關係因為裡面有很多政策性的問題其實歸咎於兩位我覺得不公平真的不公平我知道廉政署的同仁很認真法務部的同仁也很認真"},{"start":5289.403,"end":5318.339,"text":"版本送出去卡在行政院在行政院睡覺我有理解沒錯吧我們已經送行政院沒錯但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題我覺得還是要談清楚我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告寫的是只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門這部分是不是請"},{"start":5319.412,"end":5344.887,"text":"跟委員說明聯合國反貪腐公約的話他只要求我們要儘速來推動接避者保護法那他並沒有我剛說你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告是只有公部門還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護這部分就立法體力的話並沒有說是哪一種部門但是就說他只我的老天啊不好意思我很想客氣的講來我唸給你聽啊"},{"start":5347.796,"end":5372.273,"text":"第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告一百零六頁我國已嚴定公私合併版接避者保護法草案以內部人員為限參酌外國立法例如英國日本歐盟的接避者保護制度均針對內部人員提供保護符合國際立法規範這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容"},{"start":5373.889,"end":5393.496,"text":"這有白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了吧!浪費大家的時間啊!真的是浪費大家的時間啊!我們都是念法律的人啊!我把國家報告拿出來白紙黑字就寫在這裡那你如果不知道就是對你自己業務不熟嘛!"},{"start":5394.838,"end":5407.147,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5419.602,"end":5438.557,"text":"一般人也不會看因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛我們第二次到國家報告裡面喔還是公司部門都要有崔肇哲保護法剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛對吧2023年制度調整大轉彎我剛聽次長講應該沒有錯嘛"},{"start":5447.301,"end":5449.627,"text":"來,請署長。好,你們2023年是接到誰的陳情?"},{"start":5453.596,"end":5460.201,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":5481.988,"end":5493.032,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":5511.229,"end":5526.06,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�"},{"start":5539.838,"end":5552.409,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":5567.797,"end":5596.114,"text":"國不其然 今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭帶來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊"},{"start":5599.211,"end":5600.972,"text":"為什麼人民會憤怒啊?"},{"start":5600.972,"end":5617.684,"text":"這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益接力崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了那告訴檢舉人"},{"start":5626.783,"end":5637.726,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":5655.072,"end":5677.367,"text":"給這個洩漏吹哨者身份的人還起訴處分。」來,重新,我不談個案,從刑事司法政策上面,這是我們現在的廉政署所樂見的結果嗎?洩漏吹哨者身份,我們現在用什麼法?訴追,請教署長。現行的法規範體系,"},{"start":5679.88,"end":5687.923,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":5694.736,"end":5704.265,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":5719.946,"end":5735.692,"text":"吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。他的性質跟一般洩漏個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都"},{"start":5739.997,"end":5766.978,"text":"把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分"},{"start":5771.502,"end":5798.466,"text":"政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意"},{"start":5800.339,"end":5828.329,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":5830.029,"end":5841.957,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":5848.024,"end":5866.353,"text":"公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦"},{"start":5868.592,"end":5893.738,"text":"他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說要保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三泄露檢舉人的個資該不該辦該不該辦"},{"start":5898.564,"end":5905.19,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第16屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆第17屆"},{"start":5916.58,"end":5944.45,"text":"這個名嘴這個綠營的側翼跟徐巧芯委員兩個要怎麼互罵我沒意見政治立場不同但我care的是什麼我們的NCC在幹什麼啊一而再再而三泄露吹哨人的資料泄露檢舉人的個資那等於是昭告天下不要來找NCC檢舉啊不要來找NCC投訴啊因為我一定會把你的資料泄露出去"},{"start":5945.834,"end":5960.81,"text":"站在政府的立場應該容許這種事嗎?市長當然不容許切實的查辦切實的查辦這件事情絕對不能無疾而終好謝謝謝謝那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":5986.783,"end":5995.885,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請我們法務部黃次長好麻煩次長好次長早委員早"},{"start":5996.687,"end":6016.255,"text":"我們今天要併案審查的法案當中那個包含我們刑法第三百三十九條、三百三十九之三、三百三十九之四條的這個修正草案那也就是有關我們普通這個詐欺罪還有電腦詐欺罪還有加重詐欺罪的部分那我想對於這個詐騙的議題已經有過這個諸多的討論不分黨派"},{"start":6021.817,"end":6023.199,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6040.217,"end":6056.994,"text":"但是從這個網路媒體昨天公布的這個民調當中我們可以觀察到當下民眾最在乎也最擔憂的還是詐騙防制的相關問題啦齁那我們今天看到許多的草案是針對行者的加重希望這個"},{"start":6059.019,"end":6063.681,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6082.574,"end":6092.599,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":6094.625,"end":6119.85,"text":"我們應該最優先來補強的是哪一個面向?」跟委員報告那整個這一個打詐抓法研擬的過程當中法務部當然從頭到尾都參與整個法案的研擬雖然它有分著四個面向那法務部主要的是懲詐的面向那其他面向法務部也積極的參與那委員所提問的是應該哪一個面向最重要其實每一個面向都重要"},{"start":6120.37,"end":6139.848,"text":"那從這個防治到這後來的這個追審都是重要到後面的被害人的資產返還回復都是很重要的好因為防範犯罪應該是這個防範勝於懲罰啦我相信這是大家都認同的啦"},{"start":6140.128,"end":6146.73,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":6158.695,"end":6161.636,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6186.767,"end":6189.911,"text":"所以也有委員提案將投資詐騙列為這個詐欺加重的"},{"start":6194.227,"end":6203.313,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6217.081,"end":6246.093,"text":"公園報告投資詐騙他現在的確是在我們相關電災案件算一個最高比例的案件數那至於是不是應該要把投資犯詐騙這一個把它獨立成一個刑罰呢那從法務部的角度來看我們在打造專法裡面已經把你的詐騙的金額超過一千萬這種高額的投資詐騙我們已經把它列為一種獨立的刑罰可處三年以上試驗一下有期徒刑事實上我們在打造專法就這一塊高額詐騙部分我們是已經有獨立刑罰的加重處罰規定"},{"start":6246.493,"end":6270.361,"text":"那如果我們不要去設定一個金額勒市長您剛剛說是一千萬以上對那對於好剛好九百萬的我們就認為說這不符合這個條件我覺得也不公平但是我們在打詐專法裡面加重的要件有各種要件那投資金額超過一千萬十之其中的一種犯罪類型如果你有其他的複合式的犯罪他有可能構成加重的另外一種獨立犯罪類型"},{"start":6271.181,"end":6295.956,"text":"好那對於這種加重的情形那我想請教就是說司法院所提的這個書面報告裡面對於草案當中將339條之四的第一項一年以上這個七年以下提高到三年以上十年以下提出疑慮因為不能進行這個檢視的審判程序都變成強制辯護的案件"},{"start":6297.937,"end":6316.555,"text":"認為這個勢必會造成在法院程序上增加審理期間這個更加全面延長的情況本來就非常吃緊的這個司法人力恐怕也會更加吃不消就剛剛陳儒剛剛那個那個次長您所說的部分那我想請教"},{"start":6317.356,"end":6330.821,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6339.224,"end":6347.712,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":6365.828,"end":6381.31,"text":"最近因為傳出檢察官在開庭的途中突然脫掉這個法袍離開的這個消息離開那個法庭的消息後來我們從這個裁定書以及法院和檢察官本人的回覆可以初步瞭解"},{"start":6381.812,"end":6385.695,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":6398.746,"end":6404.908,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6422.813,"end":6428.819,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6443.815,"end":6465.633,"text":"然後他的業務非常繁重讓檢察官這個相當疲勞這個我相信這是大家都能夠感受的到了所以從這個檢察官這個羅信檢察官這個回應看到最後一句有寫到他說過勞司法的形成有時候真的不只是因為這個案量的關係"},{"start":6467.315,"end":6477.586,"text":"這個顯然除了這個案件之外還有其他的因素讓檢察官這個被感疲勞我想對於過勞司法的部分這個本委員會也有召開過公聽會的討論我們在討論打詐的同時也應該一併"},{"start":6482.798,"end":6507.857,"text":"這個考慮到人力的問題有健全的司法工作環境才有打擊詐騙的能力這個次長您認同嗎?完全贊成所以我希望說對於我們這個檢察官的部分除了剛剛講的這個個案以外我也希望說我們對於其他的這個檢察官應該要去檢視他們在工作上的那種壓力的問題讓他們有舒緩的情況好以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6510.249,"end":6535.319,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制"},{"start":6536.308,"end":6549.877,"text":"我想今天首先在這裡對於我們今天主席所安排的還是兩個部分一個部分是接避者這個接避者保護法另外一部分是刑法有關詐欺罪的339條339條之四的修正"},{"start":6552.659,"end":6559.861,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6571.347,"end":6591.623,"text":"這個有關接避者保護法這個剛才前面的委員都都有討論不過次長你雖然是事務官但是事實上在於如果說在過程中在質詢過程中如果有不實的指控對於政府不實的指控認為說我們次長作為政府機關的一份子也應該要勇於的來表達"},{"start":6592.97,"end":6600.034,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6616.153,"end":6644.731,"text":"分流的意思不是說施部門不要處理不是但是他們可能在相關的在相關的這個這個包括舉證責任的這個這個導致包括相關的這些規定在公部門跟施部門應該要做一些區別這個是這個我們也就是說我們更加的鼓勵公部門的吹哨者這個這個跟施部門的吹哨者我覺得要做公私分流這是第一點是分流不是說不要是分流第二"},{"start":6646.004,"end":6648.487,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6664.987,"end":6667.288,"text":"公司分流公司分流公司分流公司分流公司分流公司分流公司分流"},{"start":6684.492,"end":6685.733,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6715.011,"end":6721.05,"text":"他在你們原政署所辦的這個接避者保護法草案立法研討會上面"},{"start":6721.872,"end":6735.618,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6752.883,"end":6755.066,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":6775.167,"end":6799.087,"text":"總統他在在民進黨的中常會裡面他就明確的指出打詐是未來最優先的施政最優先的施政那因此呢今天這個我們就就在這個時候其實我們是我們主席先排啦不是說我們賴清德主席講完之後我們召委才排這個案子不是我們本來召委就排了這個案子針對這個這個刑法三百三十九條的修正"},{"start":6800.353,"end":6807.958,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6811.929,"end":6841.011,"text":"由內政部主政的這個這個詐欺犯罪防治詐欺犯罪危害防治條例還有我們法務部啦相關部門的四個法案對不對這個所謂所謂這個打渣事法剛通過了齁那這打渣事法當然有包括新的法令包括這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例包括這個這個科技偵查保障法這個是新的兩個新的以及兩個舊法的修正洗錢防治法跟通訊保障監察法"},{"start":6844.821,"end":6868.707,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":6871.753,"end":6874.194,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6892.722,"end":6898.124,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":6912.148,"end":6913.29,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":6927.142,"end":6931.444,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":6951.783,"end":6956.687,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6977.665,"end":6991.79,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":7006.459,"end":7015.003,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":7029.395,"end":7032.436,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7055.503,"end":7060.584,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":7087.077,"end":7103.324,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第1會期司"},{"start":7114.457,"end":7141.498,"text":"市長想請教一下我們這兩天的那個會議其實都很重要為什麼我們的部長都不見了?顧問報告部長今天他是因為行政院會以及他的總辭的相關的流程昨天呢?昨天他已經向這個召委有請教就是他昨天到我這樣啦我會幫媒體問啦因為媒體都等著想要聽聽看部長"},{"start":7142.319,"end":7144.86,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7168.524,"end":7170.967,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":7188.855,"end":7214.864,"text":"我想請教次長你說你昨天有說38次保外就醫都有審酌那當時台中監獄跟矯正署都參著醫療證明認為這個有助於他的醫療就是說他如果參加什麼民進黨週年慶的歡樂派對富坤崎委員問的這些不管是輔選活動外面的活動"},{"start":7216.22,"end":7237.368,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":7242.555,"end":7251.383,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．"},{"start":7270.302,"end":7287.982,"text":"公園報告我們保外就醫是否找問你有沒有嗎正常人的標準嗎每個個案啦個案去判斷有沒有有助於健康當然有益於他身體健康很開心啊那你知道我的問題是什麼了吧關鍵是有益於他的健康這件事嗎"},{"start":7289.88,"end":7312.208,"text":"關鍵是今天陳水扁前總統過去這麼多年法務部關於保外就醫的制度你覺得公平嗎對一般受刑人覺得公平嗎其他受刑人如果是今天陳水扁的狀態請問保外就醫還有可能繼續存在嗎其他受刑人舉個例子給我聽已經可以出庭已經可以上直播已經可以參與政治活動已經可以服選了"},{"start":7314.673,"end":7341.225,"text":"我先問啦,保外就醫是有病就可以保外就醫嗎?是嗎?感冒發燒都可以嗎?打對了嘛。啊現在他的狀況有到無法醫治嗎?有嗎?沒有啦。那你舉一個例子嘛,陳水扁以外的例子舉一個給我聽嘛。保外就醫的體系現在是為陳水扁一個人更改了所有的一些過去這麼多年來保外就醫的做法。"},{"start":7342.515,"end":7358.99,"text":"公園報告事實上我們現在每年大概將近有三四百個人保外就醫你跟我講一個例子像陳水扁的例子保外就醫到現在這麼健健康康開開心心參加歡樂趴直播出庭還可以繼續保外就醫你講一個例子給我聽"},{"start":7360.486,"end":7362.287,"text":"二）委員馬文君等17人擬具 «中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7384.13,"end":7386.711,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":7412.199,"end":7429.026,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":7435.287,"end":7463.527,"text":"那我也再講一個例子有人可以像陳水扁這麼活潑健康然後在與身體健康因素庭審10年的你講一個個案給我聽每個個案都有差別啦我幫你回答對不對你講一個個案給我聽不是這個是司法院審判的個案我當然知道你要講給司法院啦但是我今天是講給所有人聽嘛特色的問題蔡英文總統的職權那就算了啦"},{"start":7465.066,"end":7471.388,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":7484.293,"end":7509.321,"text":"公園報告我們刑訴法294到298條到尤其298條有如果庭審原因消滅的話就要應繼續進行或者庭審原因早就消滅了啦那是法官他們要去決定當然啦這當然不關你的事啦但我也跟法官們呼籲啊庭審原因早就消滅了那接下來我想問一下齁你知道陳建業院長拍板打詐行動1.5是去年5月嘛對不對"},{"start":7511.271,"end":7514.636,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）"},{"start":7528.834,"end":7537.623,"text":"那我想請教您,您認為到目前為止這個打造行動綱領1.5號從2023年1月到5月的16799件到下半年就6月到12月成長到21485件?案件是增加還減少?"},{"start":7547.461,"end":7570.262,"text":"現在的案件數當然還在處在一個高原期沒有辦法立竿見影看到它立即的下降的效果是沒有錯越打越詐這才是今天一個問題那昨天我很高興賴清德總統當選人他舉了一個例子他講詐騙當然是現在詐騙真的是全民受苦對不對他講什麼例子他舉說前經濟部長尹啟明說他也被詐騙"},{"start":7571.681,"end":7574.383,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7592.387,"end":7611.506,"text":"有聽過嗎?詐騙三百多萬,三百五十八萬啦。贏啟明是因為他兒子有人騙他說他兒子被綁架,他天下父母親非常心憂急切,所以被騙了一百二十萬。我就很好奇為什麼賴清德總統當選人齁,要舉例,要舉贏啟明的例子,怎麼不舉翁伯忠的例子呢?"},{"start":7614.428,"end":7629.836,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":7635.638,"end":7640.523,"text":"刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7655.649,"end":7664.595,"text":"所以不是今天我們這個刑法的刑度修正以後修改以後就萬事太平詐騙就煙消於散了拜託一下再努力一點好謝謝"},{"start":7668.289,"end":7675.013,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":7704.042,"end":7717.833,"text":"主席在堂的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表應該是法律事務處的廖專門委員"},{"start":7726.111,"end":7736.661,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":7751.533,"end":7762.265,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司"},{"start":7762.944,"end":7781.837,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":7794.561,"end":7823.772,"text":"當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整那當然這個是有這樣子的一個考量那當然這個都有一個歷史具體講為什麼為什麼是上市上櫃因為我們覺得說因為中小企業太多這部分我們怕衝擊太大所以我們限縮在上市上櫃因為上市上櫃公司的財報因為私部門的部分如果涉及到公司公司數量相當多所以是不是以上市上櫃為什麼要請今晚會的原因那現在你們說公司分流行政立法雙委並進這是什麼意思"},{"start":7824.913,"end":7830.796,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":7848.584,"end":7853.368,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7878.427,"end":7887.113,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":7908.168,"end":7910.91,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7942.808,"end":7959.242,"text":"我再說一次董事本身他就在執行業務當中執行職權當中他就可以預防或者去除去公司的一些違法事項那他沒有去做這個事情他以揭弊的方式來提出那這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡"},{"start":7960.08,"end":7961.181,"text":"馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":7979.802,"end":7988.486,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":7995.587,"end":8013.704,"text":"這部分我們後續因為這部分涉及到相關的我們還要再具體來講我來具體來講以一個案例來說如果某公司的董事A發現禮專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金那他本來就可以直接在董事會當中去予以查處"},{"start":8014.685,"end":8033.709,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制"},{"start":8046.376,"end":8063.023,"text":"這個部分的話直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失因為他有可能兩邊都可以都可以但這個部分這只是我自己個人因為不OK好那既然是個人我們就不跟他問下去了好再往下看好來那麼再來講內機內控的法徵如何落實"},{"start":8068.965,"end":8086.624,"text":"那如果不是董事像這樣的對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任比如說一個職員C發現自己的上司李專B有疑似挪用客戶的資金那如果公司已經有內部的一個法尊內機內控那他是不是應該要向先公司的法尊檢舉"},{"start":8087.864,"end":8100.043,"text":"你認為,或者我來問署長,你認為因為這個版本你們好像不研議啊,就是所謂的這個上市上位版,你們現在好像是把它放棄了。署長你說明一下,你們在研議過程中遇到這種情況,你們怎麼去分工?"},{"start":8101.67,"end":8128.308,"text":"如果一上是上個月版的版本的話我個人認為他應該兩部分都可以兩部分都可以那往下看來我們來看一下這是金控公司他的內機內控的集合辦法那麼包括的身份資料應於保密那不應檢舉對檢舉人於解雇我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中你們說因為我還沒有看到你們最新的版本你們好像是三月的時候送行政院嗎那目前有在修改嗎"},{"start":8129.872,"end":8141.998,"text":"現在刑罪有開過一次審查會所以可能還在變化當中還沒有還沒有還沒有出還沒有定案對那我想請問你們報告當中你們說檢舉跟這個揭弊要怎麼區分現在我們內機內控有檢舉啊那這個檢舉跟你們所謂來的揭弊要怎麼做區分"},{"start":8151.718,"end":8164.48,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":8166.187,"end":8191.215,"text":"如果依照我們最後送行政院的這個草案最後一個版本的話我們是限於公部門公部門版你們只限於公部門好已經越來越清楚了好那我們再往下走其實呢這裡就一個第三個問題了受理接避單位他的保密義務因為這裡面包括私部門還有公部門好那因為你們說私部門你們都這樣我就問不下去了因為我們現在所有委員版本是不是都包含了私部門"},{"start":8192.543,"end":8199.468,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":8222.712,"end":8225.555,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":8238.251,"end":8247.964,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．"},{"start":8256.363,"end":8273.781,"text":"那這檢舉達人當時利益是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大他執法的範疇這原來用意是良好但是後來檢舉者他不能取代執法者造成甚至有專門職業的腐爛的檢舉造成民眾很大的痛苦"},{"start":8274.121,"end":8279.844,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":8300.542,"end":8324.896,"text":"對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是那個虛假我們事實上是有排除的排除的是有防範的但是在不知道是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是"},{"start":8328.561,"end":8330.502,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":8344.448,"end":8353.153,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期"},{"start":8366.601,"end":8391.023,"text":"那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎"},{"start":8392.596,"end":8394.217,"text":"中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員王鴻威委員"},{"start":8421.954,"end":8425.541,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8433.331,"end":8449.077,"text":"市長我們法務部要全力打詐但是最近我們發現一些就是一些不肖的律師涉入這個詐騙而且他們還在協助本身比如說他是詐騙集團的其中一份子或者他們在協助詐騙集團所以我們可以看到一年之內光是爆發律師涉案的詐騙到目前為止大概就有四起"},{"start":8460.742,"end":8465.483,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":8488.787,"end":8508.124,"text":"除了律師之外其實很讓大家覺得非常的寒心的是現在包含一些法官檢察官他們都在涉入這些涉詐比如說這個桃園定檢署的檢察官吳雅芝她幫助她的涉詐的律師這個男友來出謀劃策"},{"start":8510.646,"end":8516.429,"text":"中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案案 案件中．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":8537.279,"end":8541.802,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":8553.328,"end":8557.071,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華"},{"start":8578.886,"end":8587.913,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":8608.548,"end":8618.877,"text":"所以我覺得應該在律師法裡面對於這些律師他們當他們處罰的時候特別他們是觸及到涉入這些詐騙集團我們應該給予他們更重的懲罰包含我的辦公室我現在也在請一些律師在幫我幫忙"},{"start":8629.105,"end":8655.384,"text":"就是對於犯洗錢防治法或者你有組織犯罪條例第三條第一項也就是有關詐騙的部分你發起指揮操縱犯罪組織或者參與犯罪的時候你只要一審有罪你應該被除名因為像政治人物比如縣市長他一審有罪他就必須這個縣市長的職務就被解除了"},{"start":8656.104,"end":8667.34,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具"},{"start":8671.946,"end":8679.051,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":8696.442,"end":8699.204,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":8715.794,"end":8721.482,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":8731.417,"end":8747.291,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":8757.961,"end":8762.307,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":8768.786,"end":8796.168,"text":"我還是希望我剛講了我舉例子我們縣市長比如一審有罪他就必須解除職務那政治人物當然要有個高的道德標準那你這個法律人那你當你處罰的時候而且我不說所有的法尤其你這個詐欺啦洗錢防治法還有你們原來規定的這些相關規定也應該去比照辦理好不好好謝謝好謝謝那我們就依照先前的宣告休息十分鐘"},{"start":8807.441,"end":8822.432,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）事由）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":9466.119,"end":9469.462,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":9491.312,"end":9495.055,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":9514.488,"end":9521.471,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":9544.401,"end":9553.423,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第12會議（事由．委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會議．事由．立法院第12會議．事由．立法院第12會議．"},{"start":9574.048,"end":9588.904,"text":"但是其實以目前來講說真的大家都不認為重刑是唯一可以解決的方式了那如果說我們今天真的要討論詐騙這件事情其實應該完整的來討論所以呢我這邊我就跳過因為這邊其實有太多奇怪的規定甚至有一些"},{"start":9589.404,"end":9598.526,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":9619.172,"end":9628.715,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":9645.561,"end":9646.602,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":9662.495,"end":9670.239,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":9684.785,"end":9692.111,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":9708.106,"end":9717.419,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":9723.107,"end":9729.429,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":9739.232,"end":9747.897,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":9757.443,"end":9768.532,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法務部等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會等"},{"start":9787.426,"end":9794.207,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":9817.853,"end":9820.395,"text":"司法院是副廳長的,行事廳副廳長。經管會勒?好。"},{"start":9839.714,"end":9864.068,"text":"我想今天要審查的就是刑法三百三十九條還有之四的規定那針對炸棄犯的刑度當然我是後半段聽到什麼樣我也說整個這一次的立法因為這個炸棄犯罪的危害防治條例已經出來了這打炸釋法出來認為說三百三十九條之四沒有修的必要"},{"start":9865.309,"end":9884.947,"text":"當然這個部分大概請部長再回答那我還是先對金管會今天針對你們專報針對這個三百三十九條之四第五款增訂這個金融電信網際網路事業負責人或從業人員利用業務上機會或方法販資者的加重這個條文那是認為說這個這一條呢是因為對這個"},{"start":9892.463,"end":9917.478,"text":"行為人是否具有特定身份而加重處罰,認為說不宜去立這個法,因為詐欺犯是可罰性在於主觀犯意及行為的太陽,所以具有這個特定身份的人不宜予以加重處罰。」那所以我想了解一下就是說因為你寫得很簡單那金管會你到底反對的理由到底是什麼?"},{"start":9923.382,"end":9941.588,"text":"各位報告這個條文其實在行政院的時候有討論過類似的一個議題那當時行政院各部會討論是認為說第一就行事的可責性來說其實打詐專法已經把詐欺犯罪已經加重了處罰那現在你"},{"start":9943.989,"end":9951.271,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":9968.055,"end":9971.859,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":9985.051,"end":9999.424,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":10000.905,"end":10002.988,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":10019.336,"end":10026.838,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":10041.101,"end":10069.206,"text":"所以我也想問一下說我們金管會那如果這種情況是我們的電信業者或者金融業者或者網際網路這些業者的負責人或從業人員他們如果去利用支付上之機會來犯下這些詐欺罪你們相關的金融法規有處罰的規定嗎有就像法務部的報告寫的在我們的金融法規裡面其實它處罰的是更重它刑罰度其實是更重的"},{"start":10069.406,"end":10098.064,"text":"所以你們相關的各別的法規有做這方面的針對這個這種身份犯已經有處罰的規定是是是是所以你想講清楚啊所以你去講說啊這個身份犯你可以講回答就跟我今天講的一樣你的專報應該這樣寫啊是所以你們有有各種法規裡面其實已經有相關的啊處罰或者加重的一個規定嘛這是我的建議啦你未來這個這個寫專報可能要慎重一點啦好你請回"},{"start":10101.51,"end":10107.375,"text":"馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10123.509,"end":10139.32,"text":"法務部及檢察機關起訴鄭宏威等16名律師及一名會計師及一名助理。這個案子還爆發了前天媒體還揭露說有涉案律師藏了300萬在橋頭地院的實訓法官的房間裏面。請問廳長現在調查的結果如何?"},{"start":10147.489,"end":10153.452,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10175.327,"end":10181.612,"text":"三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具"},{"start":10202.096,"end":10208.479,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":10223.012,"end":10234.114,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期"},{"start":10252.84,"end":10277.943,"text":"這部分有沒有涉及到違法或者是涉及到違反法官論理規範我真的我自己是法律人我都覺得說很汗顏啊怎麼會有這樣的一件事情爆發呢過去的我們的司法從業人員不管是律師或者法官我們都是很謹慎的怎麼可能會有一筆那麼大筆的金額不是小錢三百萬說把它藏在他的房間裡面完全沒有警戒心完全沒有警覺"},{"start":10279.974,"end":10283.457,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":10309.718,"end":10315.842,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":10339.295,"end":10349.863,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．立法院第11會議．"},{"start":10358.849,"end":10367.797,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":10385.45,"end":10414.108,"text":"已經院會審查通過了所以應該在進行的程序中很快就會送到大院來一個禮拜嗎因為在行政院的處理所以我會轉達部長這個已經拖太久了大家都很有意見當然你們是對於說剛才講是要公私分流那法務部或者我們廉政署剛才也一直提到希望說就是公部門先行其實我在這邊也一個建議就是說"},{"start":10414.909,"end":10420.233,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":10445.23,"end":10446.993,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":10448.506,"end":10465.417,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":10477.913,"end":10501.489,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆"},{"start":10502.638,"end":10519.073,"text":"部長你好今天我們是討論有關加重詐欺的部分那我想加重詐欺的案子當時民眾應該最在乎的不是被告判多重而是錢有沒有辦法拿回來我想部長應該這應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":10522.396,"end":10532.705,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":10538.03,"end":10545.656,"text":"那我這邊有一個數據就是高檢署在112年7月1號他統計到113年1月31號那這段時間呢他總共4383件歸還的金額是9億9493萬但是有一個很奇怪的就是"},{"start":10561.209,"end":10570.137,"text":"我手上有另外一個數據就是在公聽會上面行政院的打詐辦公室他卻給的數據是112年的打詐成效取回的被害金額已經逾6億元"},{"start":10582.108,"end":10592.866,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10596.081,"end":10609.446,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":10622.811,"end":10627.236,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":10642.614,"end":10647.317,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":10659.332,"end":10672.539,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":10687.828,"end":10695.277,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":10710.026,"end":10730.075,"text":"還有一個問題就是我們提出來的這個打詐專法其實因為我個人對於打詐專法這個設計我是有存疑因為部長知不知道有一個林三田教授以前有一個說法叫做特別刑法肥大政是我聽過我知道"},{"start":10731.069,"end":10748.836,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第13會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第14會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第14會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第15會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第16會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第17會期司法及法制委員會議．立法"},{"start":10753.558,"end":10772.424,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":10774.301,"end":10781.043,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10801.468,"end":10807.132,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律"},{"start":10827.905,"end":10843.33,"text":"當初在立法的時候法務部應該都有參與嘛那相較於行政那個內政部其實法務部應該是更在法律上面的專業所以我當時只是想說欸為什麼法務部沒有建議其實應該是就刑法或刑事訴訟法去修改而是另外成立一個專法"},{"start":10844.15,"end":10865.598,"text":"因為還有很多行政的措施包括金管會他們的意見還有內政部還有NCC各個行政部門他們有一些主詐、賭詐還有市詐的部分都全部納在這個專法裡面那跟委員我稍微澄清一下打詐專法是經過行政院院會已經通過"},{"start":10866.238,"end":10867.96,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":10885.194,"end":10891.801,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":10907.762,"end":10914.605,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10937.4,"end":10964.838,"text":"高檢署他有在瞭解那桃園地檢還有台北地檢他們都有新聞稿來說明那一切都還在深入瞭解當中那這樣齁因為畢竟偵查這種案子我想說我就不多問部長不過我還是要講一個東西從桃園的吳檢華官跟橋頭的司法官這兩個都涉入詐欺其實這對司法形象是重創"},{"start":10965.859,"end":10974.464,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":10992.313,"end":10999.083,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆"},{"start":11009.042,"end":11026.08,"text":"那你如果說法務部今天是跟警察一起處理你還可以說警察洩的密但是很多時候是法務部底下的檢察官、調查官、聯政署就只有這幾個單位查那也是洩密洩得很誇張那這個法務部就比較沒有辦法推責任嘛"},{"start":11028.496,"end":11033.723,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具"},{"start":11047.717,"end":11075.572,"text":"其他這些調查局或什麼去跟他們講還是要尊重尊重偵查不公開的法律規定一定要尊重我要求調查局還有高檢署對於違反偵查不公開一定要徹查那我們也一再教育檢察官當你辦理任何的案子也要跟合作的執法機關調查局警方都要有所提示絕對不能洩露一個偵查的秘密"},{"start":11076.232,"end":11088.5,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":11103.052,"end":11110.687,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":11116.173,"end":11134.098,"text":"這個如果合法的在調解和解當中希望能夠促成案件能夠和平的解決能夠達成協議撤回告訴這個是我們檢察官所樂見的嘛第二個如果是非告訴難論之罪的時候"},{"start":11136.291,"end":11145.76,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":11150.52,"end":11153.001,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":11176.315,"end":11195.614,"text":"我想部長是不是很清楚就我們只要不要去介入到檢察官或法官基本上就是不是干涉司法當事人之間的和談道歉或條件交換去請求告訴人撤告跟請求告訴人具狀給檢察官法官表示不再追究這應該沒有干涉司法吧"},{"start":11196.584,"end":11214.618,"text":"只要在法律的規範範圍內來執行和解促成雙方來解決紛爭。」這個是大家所樂見的啦。是,我想我們以前都常常這樣做啊。那,好,這樣我了解。好,那部長,謝謝部長,也謝謝部長這段時間這麼辛苦陪著我們一起在做這些法案的審查。好,謝謝。"},{"start":11214.738,"end":11216.98,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":11245.021,"end":11262.848,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．委員徐巧芯等18"},{"start":11289.298,"end":11314.161,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":11316.731,"end":11330.289,"text":"部長還有廳長你們好我們今天還有立法院多次在這個司法法制委員會或者是院會很多委員的質詢都在討論台灣成為詐騙者的天堂"},{"start":11335.459,"end":11349.85,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�"},{"start":11359.761,"end":11385.601,"text":"有對嘛都有我現在台灣的詐騙變成無人不知無人不曉而且不是發生在自己身上就是發生在自己周圍的親人身上所以我們台灣詐騙的情況已經適用於古代所說的治亂是用重點但是我不知道為什麼我們的政府部門我們的司法相關的機構"},{"start":11387.722,"end":11401.048,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員委員徐巧芯等19人擬具"},{"start":11402.108,"end":11420.376,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司"},{"start":11429.76,"end":11444.487,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":11445.909,"end":11465.905,"text":"為什麼一個做壞事傷害我們人民生命財產安全你的這個犯罪者你還要替他來想說他沒有錢請律師那政府要幫他請然後政府資源又不夠所以不能加重這個第一個問題第二個在我們這個報告裡面的第四頁"},{"start":11473.65,"end":11497.347,"text":"裡面講所犯對象超過兩人是否贖罪併罰或合併一罪那過去常常詐騙他一騙就騙了幾十人幾百人那有一千案併罰嗎所以不管他騙多少人我們都是就是希望"},{"start":11498.66,"end":11514.823,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":11526.866,"end":11545.54,"text":"本席本席也認同說今天在座的行政單位你們都是學有專精在法律方面學有專精料法全書你們都非常的熟忍但是不要用法將思維要去感受我們台灣人民的情感"},{"start":11546.62,"end":11550.584,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":11567.657,"end":11591.265,"text":"所以再來第四頁針對又在那邊講說司法實務工作者質疑立委的提案說犯罪所得犯罪所得是不是包含現金以外的財物那我們現在就在想你們問犯罪所得是不是包含現金以外的財物犯罪所得當然包含動產不動產這有什麼好問的"},{"start":11593.746,"end":11610.254,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":11622.13,"end":11630.155,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":11647.83,"end":11665.172,"text":"我們金融機監督管理委員會組織法第三條所稱的金融機構你電信業者我也說明了就是電信管理法第三條定義之電信事業那你們還在書面的一直在反質詢我是在搞不懂"},{"start":11665.752,"end":11681.866,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委"},{"start":11685.111,"end":11689.072,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":11709.258,"end":11732.418,"text":"公職人員貪汙要加重為什麼這些司法人員你們反對呢所以這些問題今天當然我的質詢時間到了可不可以用書面回覆司法院跟法務部我先簡單說明一下委員的目標就是對於打詐要延伸不是委員目標是全民期待"},{"start":11732.958,"end":11758.961,"text":"那我們剛剛聽到委員的這個說法我們也非常同意要嚴懲那要能夠保護這個被害人那要速辦這個我們的目標都一樣的那至於委員提到的那幾個報告裡面我們現在有打詐專法已經很快就會送到大院來了那有關剛剛委員的那些書面報告的問題是司法院的報告來請司法院來說明"},{"start":11760.029,"end":11765.793,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":11782.149,"end":11795.036,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":11815.117,"end":11818.301,"text":"另外,做議程的宣告,上午的會議時間繼續進行致議程討論事項的處理。"},{"start":11836.693,"end":11849.541,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法"},{"start":11860.005,"end":11872.853,"text":"當然他是罪責比較重希望要有辯護人能夠維護他的法律上的權益所以在立法院他就會把你惡意解讀成哎喲這個犯罪的人你還幫他請律師"},{"start":11874.083,"end":11879.567,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":11903.504,"end":11908.327,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":11932.603,"end":11947.055,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一"},{"start":11957.383,"end":11960.731,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":11967.739,"end":11971.842,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":11992.857,"end":11997.4,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12019.594,"end":12038.66,"text":"配合弊案之調查跟擔任證人的部分也都在其中。」我比較擔心的是什麼呢?台灣民間喔,你就變成中小企業你就163萬家,超過啦,這個98,九成八都中小企業。你要說一個企業裡面只有十幾人,那有人去吹哨,"},{"start":12041.912,"end":12050.176,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":12059.124,"end":12066.949,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":12076.876,"end":12083.059,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆第12屆"},{"start":12105.487,"end":12109.271,"text":"公私商域也一必定具受損,那你經過我們冗長的一兩年的調查完以後啊,哇?沒!"},{"start":12113.134,"end":12130.54,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制"},{"start":12139.811,"end":12150.868,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":12155.535,"end":12163.58,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�"},{"start":12184.694,"end":12196.358,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":12213.114,"end":12215.576,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12236.462,"end":12245.266,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":12266.314,"end":12294.173,"text":"我講的這種案例裡面就是說我們通過這樣的一個法案也真的必須要去考量到台灣的現狀98%這些中小企業如果是接受接避者保護動彈不得我現在怕的是這個承受風險的能力你說代理省那一個案你如果說施部門的部分通過以後背後影響的是上百萬的家庭"},{"start":12295.95,"end":12307.002,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":12316.513,"end":12322.078,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":12336.75,"end":12340.832,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":12352.264,"end":12360.805,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":12383.64,"end":12386.642,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":12410.094,"end":12419.877,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":12438.49,"end":12465.116,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制"},{"start":12466.536,"end":12487.632,"text":"對於在野黨的委員針對有立委涉及泄密外交部提告了但是有在野黨的委員要號召共同委員去逼迫外交部具裝給檢方來爭取不起訴我個人認為這不是用政治干預司法什麼叫做用政治干預司法"},{"start":12488.453,"end":12500.41,"text":"但我昨天質詢完之後我聽到我們的吳宗憲召委是當事人那他回應說外交部不是司法機關所以呢施壓外交部不是關說司法啦部長您覺得呢"},{"start":12504.614,"end":12522.264,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制"},{"start":12525.646,"end":12542.592,"text":"然後藉由委員的職權之便去質詢外交部然後去促成我不敢說是威迫而是說影響外交部對於這個個案去劇狀不要起訴就法律見解上您覺得呢主席請尊重我的發言時間好嗎來"},{"start":12545.672,"end":12567.868,"text":"是合嗎?我們還是尊重當事人那個案的處理檢察官也好法官也好他們會依法來行使職權我們相信我們檢察官的專業我在這裡要再次說我是一個要把道理說清楚講明白的人不要想要偷換概念騙三歲小孩好那我們看下一個議題"},{"start":12569.868,"end":12573.851,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12592.403,"end":12594.645,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12616.545,"end":12624.731,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":12646.512,"end":12673.887,"text":"我不曉得委員指的是哪一部分不過我們法律定的就是要有它的適用範圍當然我想問如果我們的言論自由是憲法保障的這些常常在電視來評判時事的這些我們可能稱他是政治評論員或是名嘴那他們在沒有逾越法律的範圍裡面去行使他們對於政治的評論或是對於中國的評論他們有違反台灣的什麼法律嗎"},{"start":12674.821,"end":12684.588,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第12"},{"start":12685.302,"end":12690.989,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一�"},{"start":12705.746,"end":12734.525,"text":"民國刑法第十一條保障台灣人民的言論自由這就是一個最高的標準中華人民共和國用他的憲法也好要用他的反分裂國家法也好他的其他法律也好都沒有辦法適用在中華民國國民台灣人民的身上我想我們法務部的大家長要捍衛台灣的法治保護台灣依法守法的每一位國人是我們共同的責任是吧"},{"start":12735.846,"end":12740.41,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12759.464,"end":12779.808,"text":"這就是我們的行政院、我們的行政官員對於任何守法合法的國人的安全都應當一起來捍衛跟保護在法律的角度捍衛台灣的法治自由也是不論是蔡部長或是未來的部長我們都要共同來捍衛的重要價值好"},{"start":12780.288,"end":12784.331,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12806.93,"end":12822.681,"text":"確實詐騙案件是全體國民心中共同的痛我也很期待摩高一尺道高一丈朝野一起來打詐這是社會的共識所以新的打詐司法當中我們針對電信類金融類還有數位經濟類是我們規範的重點好下一頁"},{"start":12829.125,"end":12844.654,"text":"但是以今天所排案的幾個國民黨當然民進黨也有蔡易餘跟王世堅委員的提案今天總共有討論的是13案就刑法加重刑責的部分我個人的認為只針對刑責的部分是末端"},{"start":12845.675,"end":12854.599,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":12863.522,"end":12868.343,"text":"二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":12887.58,"end":12911.801,"text":"所以說未來這個法其實蠻可惜的如果照主管機關未來審查可能會在內政委員會我是爭取說這個重要的假期犯罪危害防治條例未來在司法法制最少也應當是聯席因為其他三法可能都是落在司法法制的審查所以回到這個假期犯罪危害的防治條例當中對於刑責的部分的規範是"},{"start":12913.522,"end":12916.403,"text":"中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12939.508,"end":12946.053,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":12959.404,"end":12982.387,"text":"其實難以去符合各罪間的衡平性跟罪責相當的原則我是認同也請求未來在審查應當回到打架司法當中的架棄犯罪防害防治條例的44條這樣才是更完備的不管是加重刑責不管是對於下一頁對於這個假釋的門檻要提高"},{"start":12983.228,"end":13005.72,"text":"或者是不得假釋的要件更明確我都認為修這個專法立這個專法會比從刑法下手更周延所以您是不是認同我今天的主張是我們因為行政院對於打詐專法還有配套的三個法都已經院會通過了應該很快就會送到大院來了"},{"start":13006.448,"end":13035.952,"text":"嗯,好。那我謝謝法務部同仁共同的努力未來四個法當中應當三個法至少是司法法制來審議那對於這個專法是不是能夠有司法法制的委員能夠聯席參與我都相信讓朝野會去共事一起來打擊詐欺犯罪這會是我們朝野合作很重要的一個基石很重要的一個好的政策我也期待這可以成為化解朝野干戈"},{"start":13036.332,"end":13040.353,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13070.218,"end":13087.025,"text":"委員吾長好今天本席所提案的接避者保護法草案楊瓊英跟我們各位同仁等21人我們針對於這一個接避法我們認為是有必要的而且必須要去設一個專法"},{"start":13087.665,"end":13090.887,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":13111.556,"end":13139.258,"text":"都是說研議中那總共我累計了大概是研議到目前為止是7年那刑律正院版到底還沒送出來是為什麼卡在哪裡什麼原因呢請做說明說明一下就是最早我們法務部提出的版本是公部門有關的接避先立法那私部門的部分是另外處理但是後來有不同的聲音認為公司部門都要一起來"},{"start":13139.758,"end":13147.505,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":13157.034,"end":13166.202,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華"},{"start":13183.739,"end":13187.731,"text":"人民更不安心,你要不要給新的政府有什麼建議啊?"},{"start":13189.541,"end":13215.592,"text":"一個研議研議研議研議研議了七年所有的立委的版本都進來七年還看不到版本你要不要給他們什麼新的建議確實是很多不同的意見所以很審慎的在大家討論所以我說我們法務部也是做幕僚作業你也是非常無奈嘛是不是我講出你的心裡話我們在103年提出的103年提出到現在中華民國110幾年啊"},{"start":13219.872,"end":13224.416,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君"},{"start":13241.84,"end":13248.262,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13265.589,"end":13269.131,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13291.425,"end":13316.733,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":13321.307,"end":13327.569,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":13339.753,"end":13342.075,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":13355.225,"end":13359.889,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":13379.638,"end":13385.225,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期"},{"start":13397.3,"end":13422.976,"text":"對有關獎金的部分我們是認為不要在不要規定在這部專法裡面但是我們在其他的專法其他的行政規則裡面我們現在是有很多是有規定的所以那部分也是可以適用的你的立場是認為在某法裡頭不要去講不要去制定獎金的部分但是其他細項的專法裡頭可以執行可以是嗎對我們就委由行政機關他們去定"},{"start":13424.212,"end":13428.398,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13433.939,"end":13437.643,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13455.583,"end":13477.822,"text":"前從損失的險性的二十幾億到現在去年年底統計八十幾億塊九十億還是險性的隱性的還不知道案件是倍數倍數的在成長這個國家這個政府到底出了什麼事情橫向都沒有聯繫好的這個情況之下本席要請教如果我們只有提高刑度"},{"start":13478.542,"end":13506.852,"text":"如果只有提高刑度但是解決不了這些問題所以本席要請教我再給你一個數字這個原因是因為我們從五年前開始2019年開始是兩萬三千零五十四件二零二三年增加到三千七百三萬七千九百八的事件虧損的金額從2019年的四十二億多一直暴增到去年的八十八點七八億越打越炸為什麼"},{"start":13508.717,"end":13511.559,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":13538.066,"end":13541.168,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":13580.318,"end":13585.659,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13608.911,"end":13615.692,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":13638.155,"end":1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們嗎最後我們來處理有你們的作業嗎是目前都沒有沒有"},{"start":14549.688,"end":14555.012,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":14580.526,"end":14583.047,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":14610.816,"end":14614.117,"text":"目前在瑞士凍結了有4億,大約4億的新來賓。」"},{"start":14626.264,"end":14654.15,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司"},{"start":14655.88,"end":14671.866,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會"},{"start":14680.247,"end":14688.657,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":14697.247,"end":14703.668,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":14725.973,"end":14744.521,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":14752.461,"end":14772.697,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":14779.422,"end":14786.168,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":14795.874,"end":14821.893,"text":"所以還是有可能法官如果決定說要把他羈押是這個意思嗎這個我們有辦法預判那要各案法官他去決定不可能了啦現在都不可能了現在都這樣子了都沒有羈押了怎麼可能再羈押大家想想看我認為最大的意義對陳水扁來講最大的意義就是他雖然這一半另外四個案子還要審可是最少他不用再回監獄了保衛就醫解除了對吧"},{"start":14824.735,"end":14828.078,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":14849.062,"end":14873.329,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具"},{"start":14875.069,"end":14885.095,"text":"有意健康治療這個是看誰下的斷言嘛如果是醫生那有醫生的專業嘛阿如果是他個人那是他個人的意見嘛我會綜合來授權給我們的主管機關矯正署來判斷"},{"start":14894.41,"end":14904.482,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律"},{"start":14907.658,"end":14926.966,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法律委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及"},{"start":14931.8,"end":14933.302,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":14952.83,"end":14967.094,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":14985.461,"end":15009.839,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了今天大家都在討論刑法加重詐欺罪嫌的刑責本期基本上競表同意不過我想部長應該也不會反對我們今天為了要預防詐騙嚴格打詐大概不會只有提高刑度的一個手段因為我覺得要預防犯罪大概三件事第一個就是犯罪的預防機制要怎麼來做設計第二個是尤其是這種詐欺犯罪我覺得很重要"},{"start":15011.02,"end":15014.241,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":15038.948,"end":15042.65,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":15060.26,"end":15062.982,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":15081.477,"end":15086.022,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":15098.152,"end":15104.116,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":15118.767,"end":15145.963,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在就我所知就虛擬資產的必傷個人必傷管理其實他是應該要進行上號登記那所以應該是在現在的辦法的管理範圍之內所以本會的政期局其實已經有過相關的裁罰案件就是因為他沒有經過像本會聲明虛擬資產的資格然後去進行這樣的業務那本會政期局有開過罰單"},{"start":15147.622,"end":15152.51,"text":"你們最近推出的打詐釋法有沒有針對這件事情有一定的精進措施?"},{"start":15155.021,"end":15172.415,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":15183.904,"end":15210.674,"text":"你是今天都沒有準備相關的題目是不是我有點難過但是沒關係啦這個是很細微的東西喔當然我你的打詐新司法怎麼會是細微的東西呢這是畢商的管理嘛好我現在追著我現在追著往下問啦沒關係我一樣請剛剛這位這個來回答他如果比較了解的話沒有關係啦我們把事情講清楚比較重要也就是說在你的打詐司法如果他順利上路的一個情況下他理論上會納入洗錢防治法相關的一個規範來做處理嘛對不對那請問他們你們有沒有多大的把握啊"},{"start":15210.814,"end":15238.794,"text":"在納入這樣的機制之後可以完整的掌握金流然後讓未來相關事件的受害人有機會追回屬於他們的財產各位報告必傷的部分我們未來他納管他是要透過洗錢登記或者是能量登錄的方式來做納管那你外國的必傷你要在臺灣你必須要落地要不要在臺灣進行分公司公司登記而且加上我知道你的政策細節我看過嘛你的記者會有沒有講一旦登記之後他就有跡可循了"},{"start":15238.834,"end":15239.835,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":15268.712,"end":15296.79,"text":"好謝謝各位辛苦了好謝謝那接下來我們請紅夢凱委員紅夢凱委員紅夢凱委員林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員徐巧芯委員我們主席謝謝有請法務部請部長"},{"start":15302.311,"end":15324.409,"text":"副長好我們今天呢審的這個原本要審的這個兩個法案一個是這關於詐騙的一個是吹笑者保護法那我想先從吹笑者保護法跟您談起喔我記得我在當議員的時候曾經揭露了一個案子是關於呢公股銀行在選舉期間那他們呢竟然被要求"},{"start":15325.23,"end":15337.418,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":15352.427,"end":15365.5,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．二）委員馬文君"},{"start":15367.21,"end":15370.915,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具 ．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":15382.449,"end":15392.563,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":15398.951,"end":15416.782,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":15432.672,"end":15447.363,"text":"當然我們那個這個我們目前送的草案裡面對於這個揭弊的這個調查過程我們自有保護的啦所以我想委員講的這個情形我想還是要按照那個草案裡面的相關規定來問問題是說那你們相關草案裡面有沒有做這樣子的一個規定嗎"},{"start":15454.617,"end":15460.644,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具"},{"start":15471.957,"end":15486.866,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制"},{"start":15488.027,"end":15493.712,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":15503.541,"end":15516.552,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":15530.379,"end":15554.613,"text":"委員講的應該是說受理接避的機關受理之後他在做初步內部的調查的時候所做的一些行為啦那當然這些行為的話我想還是要在法律的規範的範圍之內不是我是說在這個群體就是說接避者接避以後那他的在這個共同的群體裡面他或許不是那一位接避者但是他能不能夠"},{"start":15555.413,"end":15574.158,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":15575.658,"end":15592.534,"text":"如果他是配合那個調查的人的話他還是受到我們這個草案的保護的規定好反正我的結論就是你們在草案裡面你們要重新去檢查說能不能夠讓同一機關就算他不是那個接避者他發現"},{"start":15594.035,"end":15604.679,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":15621.357,"end":15625.299,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":15637.952,"end":15658.619,"text":"林岳晴委員林岳晴委員林岳晴委員翁曉林翁曉林好像是書面翁曉林改書面質詢好蔡易宇委員蔡易宇蔡易宇委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員"},{"start":15664.544,"end":15686.927,"text":"所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢,訊答結束。委員諮詢時,有要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關緊速送交個別委員會及本會。委員翁曉琳所提書面質詢,列入紀錄刊登公報,請相關機關以書面答覆。"},{"start":15688.816,"end":15716.775,"text":"現在進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀討論事項第一案及第二案提案條文宣讀時間兩案合計約96分鐘與會人員請利用宣讀時間用餐如果有修正動議也一併宣讀請宣讀討論事項第一案中華民國刑法委員徐巧芯等提案第三百三十九條除第一項"},{"start":15719.415,"end":15748.095,"text":"墨具修正為處七年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬元以下罰金其餘未修正為馬文君等提案第三百三十九條除第一項墨具修正為處六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬元以下罰金其餘未修正委員羅士強等提案第三百三十九條除墨具中五年以下前增訂六個月以上以外其餘未修正"},{"start":15749.035,"end":15770.035,"text":"委員王世堅等提案第三百三十九條除第一項墨具修正為處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑其餘未修正委員謝一鳳等提案第三百三十九條除第一項墨具修正為處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得併科五十萬元以下罰金其餘未修正"},{"start":15771.096,"end":15784.084,"text":"委員陳金輝等提案第三百三十九條處第一項莫具修正委處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬元以下罰金期日未修正委員葉淵芝等提案第三百三十九條"},{"start":15786.041,"end":15803.735,"text":"租第一項墨具修正為處五年以上或十二年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬元以下罰金其餘未修正。委員王世堅等提案第三百三十九條之三除將第一項墨具修正為處十年以下有期徒刑其餘未修正。"},{"start":15804.756,"end":15826.173,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第三百三十九條之四除第一項蓄文末二具修正為除三年以上十年以下有期徒刑而併割八百萬元以下罰金第二款末徵定守摩者加重其刑至二分之一徵定第五款無所犯對象於二人其餘未修正"},{"start":15827.734,"end":15846.686,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）"},{"start":15857.873,"end":15875.719,"text":"文王建豪等提案第三百三十九條之四除第一項序文末二具修正為除三年以上十年以下有期徒刑的併科三百萬以下罰金其餘未修正委員蔡易餘等提案第三百三十九條之四除第一項序文第二具修正為除三年以上十年以下有期徒刑其餘未修正"},{"start":15876.599,"end":15903.004,"text":"委員謝依鳳等提案第三百三十九條之四除第一項序文末二具修正為除三年以上十年以下有歧途行得併科五百萬元以下罰金令增訂第五款五犯罪所得達一百萬元以上其餘未修正委員洪孟凱等提案第三百三十九條之四對照委員謝依鳳等提案除第一項序文第二具中十年以下修正為七年以下外其餘同委員謝依鳳等提案"},{"start":15905.031,"end":15934.042,"text":"委員徐欣盈等提案第三百三十九條之四除第一項增訂第五款五金融機構及電信事業之負責人或從業人員利用業務上機會販之其餘未修正委員圖全集等提案第三百三十九條之四同委員黃建豪等提案委員王世堅等提案第三百三十九條之四除第一項序文後段修正為處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":15936.687,"end":15964.723,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會．事由．立法院第11會期司"},{"start":15966.829,"end":15995.65,"text":"委員陳金輝等提案第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．委員馬文君等提案委員葉元之等提案第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．除第一項序文第二句開始修正為除無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑得併科三百萬元以下罰金詐欺金額巨大或情節嚴重者除無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三百三十九條之四第一項未修正增訂第二項及第三項"},{"start":15998.069,"end":16025.524,"text":"犯罪組織成員以一行為同時觸犯前項之罪及組織犯罪防治條例第三條第一項後段之罪者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科三千萬元以下罰金。犯罪組織成員以一行為同時觸犯前項之罪及組織犯罪防治條例第三條第一項前段之罪者處七年以上有期徒刑,得併科一億元以下罰金。"},{"start":16027.085,"end":16043.153,"text":"第四項有緣第二項條文帝以並修正為前三項之謂稅範法之第二案接避者保護法草案委員吳宗憲等林月琴等及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案名稱皆為公義接避者保護法委員廖偉翔等"},{"start":16050.656,"end":16078.251,"text":"楊瓊英等、洪孟楷等、徐巧芯等提案名稱均為接避者保護法。委員吳宗憲等提案第一條為維護公共利益有效發掘防止追查重大不法行為保障公部門及私部門接避者之利益特制定本法接避者之接避程序及保護依本法之規定但其他法律之規定更有利於接避者之保護者從其規定"},{"start":16079.827,"end":16106.369,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第一條對照委員吳宗憲等提案除第一項第二句中發掘修正違法憲追查修正違追究外其餘從委員吳宗憲等提案委員楊瓊英等提案第一條為維護公共利益有效發掘追查公司部門之內不違法情勢並保護鼓勵接避者特制定本法"},{"start":16108.251,"end":16123.056,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會議（"},{"start":16135.083,"end":16139.905,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":16165.922,"end":16192.255,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第二條本法之主管機關為法務部本法所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者由各該目的事業主管機關辦理目的事業主管機關有爭議者由主管機關確定之委員廖偉翔等提案第二條逐第二項默劇修正為由法務部確定之其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案委員楊崇英等提案第三條本法之主管機關為法務部"},{"start":16194.471,"end":16218.028,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員林岳晴等．委員洪茉凱等．提案．第二條君同委員廖偉翔等提案．台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條本法之主管機關為法務部．法務部為辦理本法所定之接避者保護事項應組成接避者保護委員會．第三項除莫具修正為由接避者保護委員會確定之其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案第二項．"},{"start":16219.389,"end":16239.626,"text":"第四項及第五項條文為接避者保護委員會致委員7人由主管機關就具下列資格者臨聘之任期三年並由委員互推一人為主任委員依曾任法官、檢察官、律師及其他依法具有專門職業及技術職業資格人員五年以上者。"},{"start":16242.093,"end":16269.415,"text":"二）委員曾任或現任教育部認可之大專院校教授五年以上生育卓助者三）對接避者保護人權保障有專門研究或貢獻或具有相關公民團體實務經驗生育卓助者。接避者保護委員會之組織規程、臨聘方式、處理程序及其他應遵循事項之辦法由主管機關定之。"},{"start":16271.297,"end":16286.175,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第二條同委員廖偉翔等提案委員吳宗憲等提案第三條本法所稱弊案,係只針對下列犯罪或違法行為或涉及公共利益且情節重大者"},{"start":16289.022,"end":16306.75,"text":"一（犯刑法堵職罪章之行為（二（違反貪污自罪條例之行為（三（包庇他人犯罪之行為但以法律有明文規定刑事處罰者為限（四（違反公職人員利益衝突違法得處以罰還之行為（"},{"start":16307.608,"end":16323.077,"text":"民國刑法第三十條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三十條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三十條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三十條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三十九條及第三百三十九條之四"},{"start":16324.127,"end":16346.034,"text":"依犯刑法公共危險罪章詐欺背信及重力罪第二百三十一條之一第二百九十六條第二百九十六條之一之行為二違反洗錢防治法組織犯罪防治條例槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例懲治走私條例毒品危害防治條例人口販運防治法"},{"start":16346.834,"end":16363.505,"text":"兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之行為（三（犯刑法危害投票罪章或違反公職人員選舉罷免法總統副總統選舉罷免法公民投票法反滲透法之行為（四（違反營業秘密法之行為（"},{"start":16364.285,"end":16387.815,"text":"五）委員銀行法保險法證券交易法期貨交易法信託業法金融控股公司法票券金融管理法證券投資信託及顧問法公平交易法或其他有關經濟財政法規之行為（六）委員水土保持法三坡地保育利用條例"},{"start":16388.655,"end":16414.208,"text":"空氣污染防治法、水污染防治法、海洋污染防治法、廢棄物清理法、毒性及關注化學物質管理法、土壤及地下水污染懲治法、環境用藥管理法之罪或其他有關環境保護法規制行為、其違反藥事法、醫療器材管理法、食品安全衛生管理法、傳染病防治法或其他有關衛生福利法規制行為。"},{"start":16415.228,"end":16439.911,"text":"八（違反勞動基準法、勞動檢查法、職業安全衛生法、就業服務法或其他有關勞動法規之行為。九（違反性騷擾防治法、性別工作平等法、性別平等教育法之行為。十（違反身心障礙者權利、權益保障法、老人福利法、兒童及少年福利與權益保障法之行為。"},{"start":16441.581,"end":16467.075,"text":"八其他涉及重大公共利益之犯罪處以罰還之或應付懲戒之行為前向第八款閉案範圍由主管機關、會商相關機關定之並定期檢討、調整或偵檢委員廖偉翔等提案第三條對照委員吳宗憲等提案第三條序文及第一款至第六款"},{"start":16468.643,"end":16489.463,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會（事由（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修"},{"start":16491.96,"end":16515.215,"text":"委員楊秋英等提案第二條本法之用詞定義如下。一、皆避者。一、只依本法或其他法律之規定皆發或提供相關具體事證者。二、內部違法情事。只故意犯刑法、堵職罪章、公共危險罪章、侵佔罪章、詐欺被性及重力罪章、"},{"start":16516.567,"end":16542.964,"text":"防害電腦使用罪章之罪犯貪污治罪條例之罪政府採購法違反公務員服務法而清潔重大違反公職人員利益衝突法而清潔重大違反銀行法金融控股公司法信用合作設法信託業法票券金融管理法票券交易法期貨交易法公平交易法或其他有關經濟財政法規之行為"},{"start":16544.273,"end":16570.782,"text":"維繁空氣污染防治法、水污染防治法、海洋污染防治法、廢棄物管理法、環境用藥管理法、土壤及地下水污染整治法或其他有關環境保護法規之行為、維繁食品安全衛生管理法、藥事法、醫療法或其他有關衛生福利法規之行為、維繁勞動基準法、職業安全衛生法或其他有關勞動法規之行為、"},{"start":16572.543,"end":16583.53,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":16596.991,"end":16612.611,"text":"公作條件管理措施解雇降調減薪等不利益待遇終止解除變更或不給予其依法令契約或習慣上所應享有之權利或為強暴脅迫侮辱騷擾或其他干擾之行為"},{"start":16617.199,"end":16641.82,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":16646.721,"end":16658.289,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會（事由．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一"},{"start":16659.17,"end":16679.462,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案．委員侯孟凱等提案第三條本法所稱接避者,細指針對下列犯罪或違法行為或致公眾之生命、身體、健康、財產等利益受有侵害或有侵害至於者之事項進行揭露。"},{"start":16680.697,"end":16703.374,"text":"一（犯刑法堵職罪章公共危險罪章侵占罪章及詐欺背信及重力罪章之罪二（犯貪污治罪條例之罪三（藉職務所犯及對刑不法之包庇行為四（公職人員違反公職人員利益衝突迴避法有利益衝突之情勢"},{"start":16705.748,"end":16729.751,"text":"五（公職人員違反政府採購法由損一公平公開之採購程序以及提升採購效率、功能及採購品質之情勢（六（其他重大之人為管理不當、浪費公帑以權勢脅迫行使特定目的或對公眾能源供應國民健康、食品安全、邊境防檢"},{"start":16731.178,"end":16749.363,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":16759.982,"end":16769.18,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第三條本法所稱弊案如下依違反刑法賭職罪章之行為"},{"start":16771.397,"end":16785.146,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":16799.835,"end":16820.02,"text":"六（違反銀行法、金融控股公司法、信用合作社法、信託業法、證券投資信託及顧問法、證券交易法、期貨交易法、公平交易法或營業秘密法之行為﹐七（違反空氣污染防治法、水污染防治法、海洋污染防治法﹐"},{"start":16820.76,"end":16844.014,"text":"被棄物清理法、環境用藥管理法或土壤及地下水污染整治法之行為（八（違反食品安全衛生管理法、藥事法或醫療法之行為（九（違反勞動基準法或職業安全衛生法之行為（十（違反法官法第30條第二項或第89條第4項之應付各案評鑒行為（"},{"start":16846.155,"end":16874.198,"text":"十一違反刑法防害投票罪章公使人員選舉罷免法總統副總統選舉罷免法公民投票法或反滲透法之行為十二其他重大管理不當浪費公帑濫用權勢或對國民健康公共安全造成具體危險之行為有受監察院彈劾糾舉或糾正之餘者十三其他經主管機關公告之犯罪處以"},{"start":16874.998,"end":16895.852,"text":"法環之違規行為或因部懲戒之行為．前向第十三款閉案範圍由主管機關會商相關機關公告定之並因定期檢討調整增檢公告之閉案範圍委員徐巧芯等提案第三條同委員洪孟楷等提案"},{"start":16898.08,"end":16913.423,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員吳宗憲等提案第四條本法所稱受理皆閉機關如下。依公部門之政府機關構主管首長或其指定單位人員、司部門之法人團體僱主或其"},{"start":16914.77,"end":16924.378,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":16936.826,"end":16959.606,"text":"一（涉及機密等級事項應向前項第一款第二款或第五款之受理接避機關為之。二（涉及絕對機密及其機密等級事項應向最高檢察署或高等檢察署及其檢察分署為之。受理接避機關對接避內容應依相關法令予保密。"},{"start":16961.027,"end":16988.931,"text":"受理接避機關經判定接避內容非其主管事項時應將案件移送各全責機關並通知接避者接避案件經移送各全責機關者仍依本法規定保護之。委員廖偉翔等提案第四條對照委員吳宗憲等提案除第一項第一款中指定單位人員均修正為指定人員"},{"start":16990.168,"end":17003.177,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第21會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":17004.605,"end":17028.335,"text":"第三項及第四項由委員吳宗憲等提案第二項及第四項條文遞疑（並將第三項第一款及第二款修正為一（涉及密、機密等級事項應向第一項第二款或第五款之機關為之（二（涉及絕對機密及及機密等級事項應向最高檢查署為之（"},{"start":17029.81,"end":17046.112,"text":"第四項前二具修正為受理接避機關認索受理之接避內容非其主管事項時請與同委員吳宗憲等提案。委員林月琴等提案第四條對照委員吳宗憲等提案"},{"start":17047.597,"end":17075.015,"text":"除第一項第一款至第五款分別依序由委員吳宗憲等提案第一項、第六款、第一款至第三款及第五款條文第一,並將第二項修正為二、司部門之法人團體雇主或其關係企業之主管負責人或其指定人員。第二項第一款莫具修正為因向前項第一款、第三款或第五款之機關為之"},{"start":17077.281,"end":17098.337,"text":"第二款墨具修正為應向最高檢察署為之第三項由委員吳宗憲等提案第三項及第四項條文合併並將第三具修正為如任所受理之接避內容非其主管事項時其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案。"},{"start":17099.761,"end":17126.459,"text":"委員紅孟楷等提案第四條對照委員廖偉翔等提案除第一項第一款後段負責人後面增訂其獨立行使職權之內部單位並第二項第二具後的人員修正為及其人員第三項第一款首具修正為涉及機密等級事項"},{"start":17128.379,"end":17154.891,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委"},{"start":17156.943,"end":17176.908,"text":"第二項序文手續中國家機密保護法後增定所定二字第一款末之機關為之將受理、揭弊等文字刪除第二款末具修正為應向最高檢察署為之"},{"start":17178.854,"end":17192.894,"text":"第四項手具修正為受理戒備機關判定戒備之內容非其主管事項時其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案。委員徐巧芯等提案第四條同委員洪孟楷等提案。"},{"start":17194.44,"end":17213.098,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第五條本法所稱接避者如下依公務門接避者指公務員或接受政府機關構互用定做委任派任承攬特約或其他契約關係而提供勞務或致報酬之相對人及其員工"},{"start":17214.179,"end":17228.659,"text":"而事實合理相信政府機關構或其員工其他公務員設有第三條所列之弊案具明向前條第一項受理接避機關提出檢舉者二（私部門接避者"},{"start":17230.12,"end":17256.264,"text":"指接受公司獨資或合夥商號非法人團體、財團法人或社團法人之僱用定做為任派遣、承攬、特約或其他企業關係而提供勞務或致報酬之相對人及其員工,有適時合理相信任職或提供勞務對象之法人團體雇主或其關係企業員工,設有第三條第五款第七款"},{"start":17256.804,"end":17272.368,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":17274.332,"end":17296.665,"text":"本法所稱政府機關構指中央與各級地方政府機關行政法人、公立學校、公立醫療院所、公營事業政府捐助之財團法人（委員廖偉翔等提案第五條對照委員吳宗憲等提案除第一項第一款"},{"start":17297.227,"end":17311.914,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文中僱用後面修正為委任而從事工作或致報仇之內部人員。」第二款條文中僱用後面修正為委任而從事工作或致報仇之內部人員。"},{"start":17314.295,"end":17326.828,"text":"後段修正為設有第三條第一項第六款之接避事由具明向前條第一項第一款之第四款之受理接避機關提出相關之事證或真實資訊者。"},{"start":17329.059,"end":17345.906,"text":"第二項由委員吳宗憲等提案第二項及第三項條文合併並將前段修正為前項第一款所稱接避之公務員至政務官及各級民意代表以外適用國家賠償法之公務員其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案"},{"start":17347.773,"end":17365.111,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員林月琴等提案第五條本法所稱接避者如下．一．為下列人員之一有事實合理相信政府機關購貨其員工其他公務員設有第三條第一項第一款之第六款所列之弊案具名向前條第一項受理接避機關監拘者。"},{"start":17367.722,"end":17391.689,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．公務員或政府機關構自行禁用之人員．二．接受政府機關構國營事業、公法人團體補助委任、特約、委託與其他採購關係之相對人及其員工．三．與政府機關構具有僱用、定作、委任派遣承攬、特約或其他契約關係而獲自報酬之相對人及其員工．"},{"start":17392.629,"end":17401.704,"text":"四．政府機關構具有教育實習契約之各級教育單位教師及其學生五．各級民意代表之助理"},{"start":17403.137,"end":17428.935,"text":"二．委下列人員之一．有適時合理相信任職或提供勞務對象之法人團體雇主或其關係企業員工．設有第三條第一項第六款弊案具明向前條第一項各款之受理皆必機關提出檢舉者．一與公司獨資或合夥商號非法人團體財團法人或四團法人具有僱用定作．"},{"start":17429.557,"end":17458.122,"text":"委任派遣承攬特約關係而獲製報酬之相對人及其員工二）接受公司獨資或合夥商號非法人團體財團法人或社團法人補助之相對人及其員工三）與公司獨資或合夥商號非法人團體財團法人或社團法人簽訂教育實習契約之各級教育單位教師及其學生"},{"start":17459.332,"end":17466.746,"text":"第二項處手具修正為前項第一款第一目所稱公務員（其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第五條第二項條文內容。"},{"start":17469.449,"end":17494.978,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第五條本法所稱閉案者只有事實合理相信存在第三條所定之閉案具名向前條第一項受理接避機關檢舉或依第六條規定提出檢舉者本法所稱接避者之密切關係人質接避者之配偶直系血親三親等內旁系血親二親等內因親或家長"},{"start":17496.218,"end":17523.332,"text":"家屬與其定有婚約者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害關係之人 文吳宗憲等提案第六條接避者向受理接避機關接避後未於二十日內或受理調查之通知經處請辦理後於十日內人未獲回應得在具明向下列人員或法人接避"},{"start":17524.332,"end":17552.592,"text":"自其向原受理揭弊機關揭弊時起,依本法規定保護之,依中央或地方民意代表,二具公司登記之媒體業者,三具法人登記之公益團體,揭弊者向受理揭弊機關揭弊後,六個月內未獲至調查結果之通知,經處請辦理後於十日內人未獲回應,得在具名向前項人員或法人揭弊,"},{"start":17553.891,"end":17574.233,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一"},{"start":17575.234,"end":17598.226,"text":"自其向第一向人員或法人接避時起受本法之保護接避者經原受理接避機關受理調查為查無實據之結案通知後再向前向人員或法人接避者以該案令經起訴還起訴職權不起訴申請檢疫裁判申請檢疫判決處刑"},{"start":17604.155,"end":17624.02,"text":"民國裁定准予自訴、懲戒、懲處、懲罰、彈劾、糾正糾舉或行政罰還者違憲,依本法規定保護之。前項之戒病內容不是用第十二條前段規定。」委員廖偉翔等提案第六條第一項對照"},{"start":17625.427,"end":17654.359,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第一項除第一項序文第四具修正為而向下列人員或法人接避者令默具的默字之字三除。第三款條文中公益團體修正為民間公益團體其與同委員吳宗憲等提案第一項條文令第二項及第三項條文為接避者經受理接避機關受理調查後"},{"start":17655.632,"end":17677.11,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":17679.231,"end":17708.353,"text":"委員楊秋英等提案第六條受理接避機關對接避內容應依法於職權範圍內為必要之調查為進行前項調查處犯罪應依刑事訴訟或其他法律所定之訴訟程序追訴處罰外得請求相關機關構法人或團體個人提供必要之文書資料或物件並得以書面通知相關之人陳述意見"},{"start":17709.901,"end":17729.286,"text":"秀禮揭秘機關應將案件之秀禮、調查過程、調查結果及相關文件製作記錄。秀禮揭秘機關應於調查終結後將結果通知揭秘者。委員林月琴等提案第6條對照委員廖偉翔等提案除增訂第二項"},{"start":17730.956,"end":17750.822,"text":"接避者經原受理接避機關受理調查後六個月內未獲調查結果之通知,經促請辦理後於十日內人未獲回應,得具名向前向人員或法人接避,自其向原受理接避機關接避時期,依本法規定保護。"},{"start":17753.035,"end":17779.407,"text":"第三項及第四項由委員廖偉翔等提案第二項及第三項條文遞移並將第三項第二具條文中前項修正為第一項第三具條文中經起訴後增定還起訴第四項修正為前三項之揭弊內容不是用第十九條前段之規定其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案"},{"start":17780.538,"end":17808.285,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員胡孟楷等提案第五條對照委員廖偉翔等提案第六條除第一項續文第四句中而向下列人員修正為而具名向下列人員令末句中自其向原受理皆閉機關原字刪除令增訂第四項第一項受理皆閉之機關"},{"start":17809.775,"end":17828.258,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一所涉於我國者違憲．其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第六條．一．一所涉於我國者違憲．其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第六條．一所涉於我國者違憲．其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第六條．一所涉於我國者違憲．其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第六條．一所涉於我國者違憲．其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第六條．一所涉於我國者違憲．其餘"},{"start":17839.554,"end":17863.629,"text":"第二項第四具具首得在具名修正為得具名第四項修正為接避者向受理接避機關接避後經通知為查五十句而與結案再向第一項人員或法人接避者以該案後經起訴還起訴裁定交付審判懲戒懲處懲罰彈劾糾正糾舉或克與罰還者為限"},{"start":17869.414,"end":17894.221,"text":"民國指授本法之保護．其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案第六條第一項至第四項．委員徐巧芯等提案第五條同委員洪孟楷等提案．委員楊瓊英等提案第四條接避者應具名以言詞、書面、電詞記錄或其他適當之方式向受理接避機關為之。"},{"start":17896.067,"end":17901.531,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":17919.923,"end":17922.865,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":17949.656,"end":17976.177,"text":"委員林月琴等提案第八條受理接避機關對接避事由應為調查並得要求接避者涉嫌事業單位或機關構等關係人提供相關事證配合調查涉案關係人非有正當理由不得拒絕受理接避機關基於證據保全與法院判決前得向法院申請扣押"},{"start":17978.541,"end":17999.571,"text":"民國准用刑事訴訟法第一百三十三條之規定．委員楊瓊英等提案第五條接避者之接避內容有下列情形之一者受理接避機關得不予處理依非第二條第二款鎖定接避者所為之內部違法情事"},{"start":18001.226,"end":18030.37,"text":"二．一．第四條所定接避方式所為之接避三．接避內容明顯虛偽不實或無具體之內容四．與調查中或調查程序終結之案件為同一案件而接避者未能提出新證據或新事證。委員林月琴等提案第九條接避有下列各款情事之一者受理通報之主管機關得不予調查或停止調查"},{"start":18031.513,"end":18035.428,"text":"一、不符合本法之規定二、通報之案件明顯虛偽不實"},{"start":18037.602,"end":18046.549,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":18064.022,"end":18070.959,"text":"一（前向賦予調查或停止調查後三十日內應以書面蓄名適由通知揭弊者。"},{"start":18073.319,"end":18089.05,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員吳宗憲等提案第七條政府及官構、法人、團體或個人不得因第五條第一項第一款第二款所示提供勞務或致報仇之人有下列行為而意圖報復對其採行不利之措施。"},{"start":18096.107,"end":18120.895,"text":"一（揭發第三條所列弊案二（配合弊案之調查或擔任證人三（拒絕參與弊案之決定或實施四（因前三款之作為而遭受不利措施後依法提起救濟。前項所稱不利措施指下列情形之一一（解職、撤職、免職、停職、解約、降調或不利至考積、懲處、懲罰及評定。"},{"start":18124.889,"end":18140.561,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具"},{"start":18148.712,"end":18170.218,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":18178.131,"end":18198.659,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":18206.38,"end":18223.648,"text":"前向第三款所定財產上損害之賠償包括奉薪及獲工資以外其他期待利益之合理估算金額及遭受不利措施後依法提起就計所合理支出之必要費用"},{"start":18224.528,"end":18241.316,"text":"第三項鎖定不利措施之爭議應先由受不利措施之人證明下列情勢。一（有第一項各款之行為。二（有遭受第二項之不利措施。三（第一款行為之發生時間在第二款不利措施之前。"},{"start":18242.853,"end":18262.831,"text":"受不利措施之人為前項證明後定為有違反前條第一項規定但任職之政府機關構法人團體或其主管僱主證明眾無該等行為其與當時仍有正當理由採相同之人士措施者不在此限"},{"start":18263.672,"end":18272.146,"text":"政府機關構法人或團體個人不得定有禁止內部人員有低向各款行為之約定如有訂定該約定無效"},{"start":18275.185,"end":18302.556,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第七條第一項之第四項對照委員吳宗憲等提案第七條第一項之第四項除第一項續文修正為政府機關構法人或團體個人不得因第五條第一項所列公務員或從事工作或致報仇之人下稱內部人員有下列行為而意圖報復對其採取對其採行不利之人事措施"},{"start":18303.396,"end":18325.493,"text":"第一款修正為一（揭發第三條所列皆必是由之弊案。第四款條文中措施修正為人事措施。第二項序文手具修正為前項所稱不利之人事措施。第二款中罰款後的新字刪除。"},{"start":18326.994,"end":18352.048,"text":"第五款修正為無故揭露揭弊者之身份。第三項序文修正為因第一項各款行為而受不利人事措施之內部人員得為下列請求。第一款條文中的措施修正為人事措施。第三款具首受不利措施修正為受人事不利措施。"},{"start":18353.311,"end":18374.404,"text":"第四項第三具中措施修正為人事措施後自後的逗點刪除。其餘同委員吳宗憲等提案第七條第一項至第四項令第五項條文為定有禁止內部人員為第一項第一款至第四款行為之約定者,其約定無效。"},{"start":18375.578,"end":18403.717,"text":"第八條前條第二項所定不利人事措施之爭議應先由受不利人事措施之內部人員證明下列情勢一有前條第一項各款之行為二有遭受前條第二項之不利人事措施三第一款行為之發生時間在前款不利人事措施之前內部人員為前項證明後該等人事措施推定為有"},{"start":18404.758,"end":18418.071,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條第一項規定。違反前條"},{"start":18425.518,"end":18449.386,"text":"第13條接避者或其關係人應接避行為受所屬機關構或其上級機關構法人或團體個人施予不當措施者得依其原有身份關係所適用之法律程序請求救濟前向機關構法人或團體個人於前向救濟程序中應就其措施與接避行為無關附"},{"start":18451.499,"end":18475.254,"text":"民國刑法第十四條違反本法之規定致接避者或其關係人受有損害者不損害賠償責任但能證明其無故意或過失者不在此限前向損害賠償案件適用民事法律之規定委員林月琴等提案第十五條"},{"start":18480.526,"end":18496.271,"text":"第十五條第一項至第四項對照委員吳宗憲等提案第七條第一項至第四項除第一項蓄文修正為政府機關構、法人或團體個人不得因第五條第一項第二項所列人員"},{"start":18497.936,"end":18502.419,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":18519.261,"end":18540.041,"text":"第二項第二款條文中罰款後面的新字刪除第三項序文修正為因第一項各款行為而受不利措施之內部人員或其配偶仔細寫清其他身份上或生活上有密切關係之人而為下列請求。"},{"start":18543.001,"end":18561.212,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":18562.557,"end":18588.663,"text":"委員洪孟楷等提案第六條第一項及第二項對照委員廖偉翔等提案第七條第一項及第二項除第一項續文第二具修正為不得因第六條第一項所列公務員或從事工作或致報仇之內部人員有下列行為令第一款末增訂下稱弊案等文字。"},{"start":18589.548,"end":18616.674,"text":"民國刑法其餘同委員廖偉翔等提案第七條第一項及第二項令第三項至第五項條文為前項鎖定不利人事措施之爭議應先由受不利人事措施之內部人員證明下列情勢一有前條第一項各款之行為二有遭受前條第二項之不利人事措施三第一款行為之發生時間在前款不利人事措施之前"},{"start":18617.854,"end":18640.076,"text":"內部人員為前項證明後該等人事措施推定為有違反前項第一項規定但任職之政府機關構法人團體或其主管僱主證明縱無該等行為其與當時仍有正當理由採相同之人事措施者不在此限政府機關構法人或團體個人"},{"start":18641.397,"end":18659.166,"text":"不得訂定禁止內部人員為第一項第一款之第四款行為之約定如有訂定該約定視為無效。第七條對照委員廖偉翔等提案第七條第三項及第四項條文"},{"start":18660.879,"end":18676.601,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等17人擬具:「中"},{"start":18680.343,"end":18703.558,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第七條第一項之第三項對照．委員林沐月琴等提案第十五條第一項之第三項,除第一項蓄文修正為政府機關構法人或團體個人不得因接避者有下列行為而對其採行不利之措施。第二項第一款中降調後面增訂移送懲戒。"},{"start":18705.319,"end":18729.744,"text":"第三項序文修正為因第一項各款行為而受不利措施之接避者得為下列請求第三款默據修正為以及包括其他期待利益在內之財產上損害賠償其餘同委員林月琴等提案第15條第一項至第三項條文令第四項至第六項條文為"},{"start":18732.099,"end":18734.9,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":18754.73,"end":18774.66,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華"},{"start":18776.345,"end":18791.434,"text":"因先由受不利措施之揭秘者證明下列情勢一有前條第一項各款之行為二有遭受前條第二項各款之不利措施三第一項行為之發生時間在前款不利措施之前"},{"start":18793.37,"end":18796.753,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":18818.183,"end":18831.031,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":18839.056,"end":18853.022,"text":"此主張應先於其他事項進行調查並依調查結果而為成立或不成立之認定。」委員徐巧芯等提案第6條同委員洪孟楷等提案。"},{"start":18857.543,"end":18881.081,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第八條具公務員身份之人應受前條第二項第一款至第四款不利措施者應依其原有身份關係適用之法律程序提起行政救濟所申同條第三項第三款及第四款之賠償請求權自政府機關構依第二項主張作成回復原裝"},{"start":18881.881,"end":18897.345,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四"},{"start":18899.386,"end":18917.311,"text":"公務員於申訴再申訴赴審訴願憑藉懲戒行政訴訟或其他人事行政行為救濟程序中主張其有第七條第一項各款之行為而遭移送或受有不利措施者應先於其他施政而為調查並依調查結果而為成立或不成立之認定。"},{"start":18918.492,"end":18933.434,"text":"公務員身份之受不利措施者主張其應有第七條第一項各款制行為而遭移送懲戒經懲戒法院審理後認定其依前項之主張成立並為不受懲戒之判決確定者"},{"start":18934.755,"end":18962.91,"text":"義德請求第七條第三項第三款及第四款之賠償並准用前項實效之規定。前二項請求權之行使不妨礙依民法、國家賠償法或其他法律所得行使之權利。委員廖偉翔等提案第九條第一項對照委員吳宗興等提案第八條第二項除了第三具修正為而遭移送或受有不利人士措施者其餘相同。"},{"start":18965.766,"end":18991.939,"text":"公務員身份之內部人員應受第七條第二項第一款之第四款不利人士措施所生條條第三項第三款及第四款之賠償請求權自政府機關構依前項主張作成回復原狀行政救濟為有理由之決定確定之日起應第七條第二項第五款不利人士措施所生之賠償請求權自知悉事實發生之日起六個月間不行使而消滅"},{"start":18993.079,"end":19018.694,"text":"公務員身份之內部人員主張其應有第七條第一項各款之行為而遭移送懲戒。經公務員懲戒委員會或職務法庭審理後,認定其依第一項之主張成立並為不受懲戒之判決確定者,亦得請求第七條第三項第三款及第四款之賠償,並准用前項實效之規定。第四項同委員吳宗憲等提案第八條第四項。"},{"start":19021.892,"end":19047.784,"text":"委員林月晴等提案第16條對照委員廖偉翔等提案第9條除將具中之第7皆修正為第15及人事措施皆修正為措施外及增訂第5項其餘相同。第5項文字為法院於第二項第三項審理期間必要時得徵詢兩照同意後由律師公會以公益為目的之社團法人或財團法人同業公會公會"},{"start":19049.707,"end":19072.465,"text":"主管機關或檢察署就法律與事實偵點提出書狀供法院認識用法制參考第17條第一項審理期間議統。委員侯孟凱等提案第8條。對照委員廖偉翔等提案第9條。除將文中的第7接修正為第6之外其餘相同。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條。"},{"start":19075.117,"end":19099.871,"text":"第七條第三項各款鎖定戒避者之請求權除別有規定外自知悉事實發生時起六個月間不刑時而消滅第七條第四項鎖定戒避者之請求權自救濟程序或訴訟終結時起六個月間不刑時而消滅戒避者為公務員者應受第七條第二項各款不利措施所申同條第三項第三款及第四款之請求權"},{"start":19100.771,"end":19113.471,"text":"自政府機關構議第八條第三項之主張而作成回復原狀或行政救濟為有理由之決定確定之日起六個月間不行使而消滅。」委員徐巧芯等提案第八條同委員侯孟凱等提案第八條。"},{"start":19116.55,"end":19141.757,"text":"委員吳宗信等提案第九條未具公務員身份之受不利措施者因僱主違反第七條第一項規定者自得自知悉其情形之日起三十日內不經預告終止勞動契約。請向人員得請求僱主及付其適用勞動基準法勞工退休金條例或其他法規所規定之資遣費退休金及相當於六個月工資補償金"},{"start":19143.177,"end":19161.102,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．自勞動契約終止時期六個月間不刑時而消滅,未具公務員身份而受不利措施所生第七條第三項之請求權,自知其事實發生之日起六個月間不刑時而消滅,自損害發生時期與二年者一通。"},{"start":19162.162,"end":19180.955,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等"},{"start":19188.3,"end":19209.386,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":19213.367,"end":19231.866,"text":"公務員身份之受不利措施者為政府機關構法人或團體編制內之領奉新級而定有委任契約者得准用第二項第四項至前項規定請求補償金,但契約之約定有利於該受不利措施者從其約定。"},{"start":19232.907,"end":19251.066,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第十條為具公務員身份之內部人員因受不利人事措施所申第七條第三項之請求權自知悉事實發生日起六個月間不行使而消滅。前項請求權之行使不妨礙依民法或其他法律所得行使之權利。"},{"start":19253.137,"end":19258.842,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":19275.936,"end":19293.967,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員廖偉翔等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）"},{"start":19295.325,"end":19318.688,"text":"未具公園身份之內部人員應受不力措施所生第15條第三項之請求權,自知悉事實發生之日起六個月間不行使而消滅,請向請求權之行使,不妨礙依民法或其他法律所得行使之權利。政府機關構法人或團體個人違反第15條第一項規定,自有損害第一項之內部人員權益治癒者,該內部人員得不經預告終止契約。"},{"start":19319.229,"end":19332.974,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會（事由）立法院等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由）立法院等17人擬"},{"start":19343.678,"end":19366.645,"text":"老戶契約前二項補償金以收僱人為第十五條第一項各款行為日之前日起六個月平均工資計算。第一項之內部人員為政府機關購法人或團體編織內支領奉薪給而定由委任契約者得准用前三項規定請求補償金,但契約約定有利於內部人員者從其約定。"},{"start":19367.557,"end":19388.309,"text":"委員洪孟楷等提案第九條．對照委員林月琴等提案第十七條．初將第一項的第十五修正為第六．及第三項的第十五修正為第六．及刪除莫具的退休金．及三個月修正為三個月以上．及第四項的第十五條修正為第六條．及第五項修正為"},{"start":19394.42,"end":19406.242,"text":"一、千二項補償金因受供人為第六條第一項各款行為前一個月工資計算者其餘相同。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第九條"},{"start":19407.426,"end":19431.512,"text":"政府機關構法人或團體個人違反第七條第一項規定自由損害接避者權益治癒者未具公員身份之接避者得不經預告終止契約僱主的給付因給付不低於其適用勞動基準法勞工退休金條例或其他法規所規定資資遣費以及相當於六個月工資之補償金之總額。依第七條第三項第一款"},{"start":19432.475,"end":19448.6,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":19460.803,"end":19477.728,"text":"奉新己而定有委任契約者得准用前三項規定請求補償金,但契約有更利於接避者之約定者從其約定。」委員徐巧芯等提案第九條,同委員洪孟凱等提案第九條。"},{"start":19480.168,"end":19505.518,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第十條違反第七條第一項規定者依下列情形予以處罰一、有公務員身份者按其情節輕重公務員懲戒法或其相關法規予以懲戒或懲處二、未具公務員身份之自然人法人團體者由各目的事業主管機關處新台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還但其他法律有較重之處罰規定者從其規定"},{"start":19507.159,"end":19514.07,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條"},{"start":19514.608,"end":19536.814,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第11條違反第7條第一項規定者其具有公務員身份者按其情節輕重依公務員審計法公務人員考記法或其他相關法規予以審計或懲處未具公務員身份之人法人團體者由各目的事業主管機關處新台幣五萬元以上五百元以下罰還但其他法律有較重之處罰規定者從其規定"},{"start":19538.234,"end":19564.189,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．前向後段情形各目的事業主管機關得獻其命其改善藉其不改善者案自處罰．委員楊瓊英等提案第18條公務員違反本法之規定者的案其情節輕重依法予以懲戒或懲處．委員林月琴等提案第18條對照委員廖偉翔等提案第11條除將具首的第7條修正為第15條外其餘相同．"},{"start":19565.407,"end":19589.832,"text":"委員侯孟凱等提案第十條對照委員林月琴等提案第十八條除將具首之第十五條修正為第六條外其餘相同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十一條違反第七條第一項規定者其具有公務員身份者案其情節輕重依公務員懲戒法公務人員考記法或其他相關法規予以懲戒或懲處未具公務員身份之自然人或其他法人團體者"},{"start":19590.672,"end":19604.897,"text":"由揭弊案件之各目的事業主管機關檢附相關資料移送揭弊者保護委員會,由揭弊者保護委員會儲新台幣二十萬元以上二億元以下罰還,但其他法律有較重之處罰規定者從其規定。"},{"start":19609.135,"end":19622.706,"text":"前向後段情形結筆者保護委員會亦得現其命期改善藉其不改善者得依前向後段規定案資處罰至改善為止。委員徐巧芯等提案第10條同委員侯孟凱等提案第10條"},{"start":19626.185,"end":19650.019,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第11條接避者依本法程序向第四條所列受理接避機關所陳述之內容涉及國家機密營業秘密或其他依法應保密之事項者不負洩密之民事形式行政及職業倫理之懲戒責任其為接避向律師徵詢法律意見而涉及前開依法應保密之事項者一同。"},{"start":19650.979,"end":19667.847,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第12條接避者向受理接避機關之陳述內容涉及國家機密營業秘密或其他依法應保密之事項者不負泄密之民事形式行政及職業倫理之懲戒責任其應接避向律師徵詢法律意見者一同。"},{"start":19668.587,"end":19676.214,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":19689.165,"end":19714.972,"text":"再有借閉者證實身份資料之文書原本應另行加密封存之處法院檢察機關或監察院有調查審判彈劾權者。繼予案件審理之必要外不得閱覽之。委員寧月晴等提案第19條同委員廖偉翔等提案第12條第一項。委員洪孟凱等提案第11條同委員寧月晴等提案第19條。"},{"start":19717.783,"end":19742.856,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十二條接避者以本法鎖定之程序向受理接避機關之陳述內容涉及國家機密、隱約秘密或其他依法應保密之事項者不負泄密之民事、刑事、行政責任及職業倫理之懲戒責任,其應接避向律師徵詢法律意見者一同。委員徐巧芯等提案第十一條同委員侯孟凱等提案第十一條。"},{"start":19744.639,"end":19773.512,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第十二條接避者系接避內容所涉犯罪之偵犯或公犯且符合《證人保護法》第三條及第十四條第一項之要件者得依同法第十四條第一項予以減刑或免除其刑,不受該法第二條所列罪名之限制。機關受理前項經法院判決免除其刑確定之接避者再申請在任公職案件,得不受公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項第四款之限制。"},{"start":19774.554,"end":19786.072,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第13條對照委員吳宗憲等提案第12條除將第二項首句之句末增列十字之外其餘相同。"},{"start":19787.557,"end":19809.333,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第15條接避者於刑事案件偵查中或行政案件調查中之公訴或所提證據,有助於弊案之調查,並因而查獲不法行為者,接避者於該弊案所涉刑事犯罪,得檢聽或免除其刑,其所涉行政責任亦得檢清或免除。"},{"start":19811.397,"end":19821.609,"text":"委員林月晴等提案第20條同委員廖偉翔等提案第13條委員洪孟凱等提案第12條同委員林月晴等提案第20條"},{"start":19824.125,"end":19842.622,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":19845.386,"end":19874.091,"text":"經法院判決免除其刑確定之接避者申請在任公職案件時得不受公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項第四款之限制。委員徐巧芯等提案第十二條接避者系接避內容所涉犯罪之正犯或公犯且符合正人保護法第三條及第十四條第一項之要件者得依同法第十四條第一項予以減輕其刑。第二項同委員洪孟凱等提案第十二條第二項"},{"start":19875.663,"end":19893.425,"text":"委員吳宗賢等提案第13條接避者符合《證人保護法》第三條之要見者其本人或其配偶直系寫清其他身份上或生活上有密切利害關係之人的依該法施以人身安全之保護措施,不受該法第二條所列罪名之限制。"},{"start":19894.306,"end":19897.189,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":19911.772,"end":19940.439,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第十四條對照委員吳宗憲等提案第十三條除將文中利害關係之人修正為利害之人之外其餘相同委員楊求英等提案第十一條接避者或其關係人因接避行為致其生命身體或自由有遭受立即危害至於時司法警察機關得依職權或依接避者或其密切關係人受理接避機關之請求採取必要之保護措施"},{"start":19942.403,"end":19959.614,"text":"委員林月琴等提案第21條同委員廖偉翔等提案第14條委員洪孟楷等提案第13條對照委員林月琴等提案第21條除將第二項默劇修正為加重其本行二分之一以上之外其餘相同。"},{"start":19961.344,"end":19986.743,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十四條接避者符合證人保護法第三條之要見者其本人或其密切關係人得依該法第十二條及第十三條規定施以人身安全之保護措施及安置措施不受該法第二條所列罪名之限制意圖妨礙或報復受本法保護之接避者皆罰閉端配合調查或擔任證人而向接避者"},{"start":19987.423,"end":19993.297,"text":"民國刑法第三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":19993.683,"end":20017.142,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第13條接避者符合證人保護法第三條之要件者其本人或其配偶仔細寫經其他身份上或生活上有密切關係之人及對於接避行為之合作關係者得依該法施以人身安全之保護措施不受該法第二條所列罪名之限制。第二項同委員何孟楷等提案第13條第二項。"},{"start":20019.963,"end":20037.106,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第14條受理接避機關及其懲辦、調查、稽查人員、執法人員或其他依法執行該相當職務業務之人對於接避者之身份應予保密,非經接避者本人同意不得無故洩漏與被揭露"},{"start":20037.847,"end":20041.208,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":20062.472,"end":20076.284,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第15條對照委員吳宗憲等提案第14條處將第一項頓號執法人員及第二三四項的文字刪除之外其餘相同。"},{"start":20079.212,"end":20097.979,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第十條應執行職務或業務窒息接避者身份之人除法律另有規定或經本人同意者外不得洩漏足以識別接避者身份之資訊違反前項之規定者依相關法律處罰委員林月琴等提案第十條"},{"start":20099.298,"end":20104.322,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":20124.958,"end":20140.86,"text":"接避者因身份洩漏致其生命、身體、財產、勞動條件及其他相關利益之權益受有損害者受理接避機關應負損害賠償責任。」委員洪孟凱等提案第15條第一項同委員吳宗憲等提案第14條第一項"},{"start":20143.697,"end":20162.345,"text":"公務員無故洩漏戒避者之身分者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑。因過失犯嫌像之罪者處二年以下有期徒刑拘役或科新台幣五十萬元以下罰金。非公務員無故洩漏戒避者之身分者處三年以下有期徒刑拘役或科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":20164.148,"end":20191.908,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條受理接避機關及其承辦人員或其他依法執行該相當職務業務之人對於接避者之身份個人資料及足以顯示接避者身份之資料均應予保密非經接避者本人同意不得無故洩漏。委員徐巧芯等提案第15條對照委員洪孟凱等提案第15條除將第三項第三項除將"},{"start":20193.257,"end":20198.768,"text":"二年修正為三年及第四項將三年修正為五年之外其餘相同。」"},{"start":20200.919,"end":20225.445,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第15條接避者之個人資料出法律另有規定或已無身份保密必要者外接避者的請求以代號製作筆錄或文書遮隱其姓名性別出生年月日住居所身份證明無件編號或其他得以直接或情節方式識別該個人資料其簽名有保密之必要者以按指印或簽寫代號代之"},{"start":20226.025,"end":20234.231,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":20254.364,"end":20277.976,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員楊瓊英等提案第九條接避者之個人資料除法律另有規定或已無身份保密必要之情形者外公務員與製作筆錄或文書時應以代號為之不得記載接避者之姓名性別出生年月日住居所身份證明無間編號或其他得以直接或清潔方式識別該個人資料。"},{"start":20280.342,"end":20289.159,"text":"在有接避者身份資料之筆錄或文書原本應另行製作卷面封存之其他文書足以顯示接避者之身份者一同。」"},{"start":20290.256,"end":20315.013,"text":"前向封存之筆錄文書出法律另有規定外不得供閱覽或提供偵查審判機關以外之其他機關構法人或團體個人接避者於接受調查審理時得依其要求蒙面、變身變相、視訊傳送或其他適當隔離方式為之,與其依法接受對質或結論時一同,前四項之保密措施接避者得放棄之。"},{"start":20318.086,"end":20342.399,"text":"委員林瑞琴等提案第十一條接避者其本人或其配偶直接寫經其他身份上或生活上有密切關係之人因接避導致生命身體自由或財產有遭受危害之餘而有受保護之必要者受理接避機關因依據本法第七條第一項規定受理接避案件後將本案移交第四條第一項第三款規定之檢查機關"},{"start":20343.319,"end":20354.355,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華"},{"start":20358.621,"end":20376.67,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條"},{"start":20378.391,"end":20399.105,"text":"在有接避者真實身份資料之文書原本應另行加密封存之。除有檢察機關或法院有調查審判權者基於案件審理之必要外不得閱覽之。接避者與接受調查或訴訟程序中的依其要求蒙面、變身、變相、視訊傳送或其他適當方法隔離為之。"},{"start":20401.38,"end":20428.534,"text":"委員洪孟楷等提案第十四條對照委員楊瓊英等提案第九條除了增列第二項接避者之簽名有保密之必要者以按指引或簽寫代號代之及第六項修正為前五項身份保密措施接避者得與書面聲明或負載本人簽名之方式經公正程序放棄之外其餘相同。"},{"start":20429.724,"end":20445.377,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第十四條同委員洪孟凱等提案第十四條委員楊瓊丁等提案第八條接避者明知其接避事證不實或以獲取不正利益為目的者不受本法之保護"},{"start":20447.062,"end":20462.365,"text":"委員林月琴等提案第13條行政院直轄市縣市政府應致接避者保護官若干名接避者保護官職權之行使由行政院指揮監督接避者保護官任用及職權之辦法由行政院定之。"},{"start":20463.308,"end":20489.967,"text":"第十四條接避者保護官行使諮詢時得為必要之調查並得採取下列措施一、向受理接避機關查詢有關事項或請求提供相關資料二、恰請受理接避機關對接避者所屬事業單位或機關構進行調查並查明與案情有關事項三、恰請受理接避機關為必要之處置四、其他適當之措施"},{"start":20491.994,"end":20518.501,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第十二條接避者或其關係人應接避行為致其生命身體自由財產有遭受危害之餘而有受保護之必要者法院於審理中或檢察官於偵查中得依職權或依接避者或其關係人受理接避機關之申請合法接避者保護書以下簡稱保護書申請保護書之案件以該管案件之法院為管轄法院"},{"start":20519.281,"end":20523.644,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具"},{"start":20541.448,"end":20568.554,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第16條接避者之接避內容有下列情形之一者得依人得依本法受有保護一所揭露之內容無法證實但明顯虛偽不實或接避行為僅與誣告違證罪還起訴或判決有罪確定者不在此限二所揭露之內容業經他人檢舉或受理接避機關已知悉但案件已公開或接避者明知已有他人檢舉不在此限"},{"start":20569.494,"end":20598.32,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第16條接避者依本法所授之保護,不因下列情形而喪失。一、所揭露之內容無法證實,但明顯虛偽不實。檢舉行為僅與誣告,偽證罪,判決有罪。未提供閉案相關之事證,真實資訊出於獲利或損害他人之不當目的者不在此限。二、所揭露之內容,業經他人檢舉或受理,接避機關已知悉,但案件已公開或接避者明知已有他人檢舉者不在此限。"},{"start":20600.026,"end":20620.765,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員林月琴等提案．二十二條接壁者依本法所受之保護不因下列情形而喪失．一．所揭露之內容無法證實但明顯虛偽不實或檢舉行為僅以誣告偽證罪判決有罪者不在此限．二．同委員廖偉翔等提案第十六條第二項．"},{"start":20621.966,"end":20645.68,"text":"委員翁孟楷等提案第16條同委員廖偉翔等提案第16條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條接壁者依本法所受之保護不應下列情形而喪失一、接壁者所揭露之弊案內容無法證實但其內容明顯虛偽不實或其檢舉行為經已誣告偽證罪判決有罪確定者不在此限二（"},{"start":20646.721,"end":20662.995,"text":"卸幣者所揭露之弊案內容,亦經他人提出檢舉或受理卸幣機關已知悉,但案件已公開或卸幣者明知已有他人提出檢舉者不在此現。委員徐巧芯等提案第16條同委員洪孟凱等提案第16條。"},{"start":20664.861,"end":20691.395,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第17條一相關法令公部門得就接避行為給予獎金者其獎金給予基準及相關事項之規定由各目的事業主管機關定之。傾向情形,司部門亦得依其內部規章或決定給予獎金。任職之政府機關構、法人、團體或僱主對於接避者依法令內部規章或決定所得領取之請取獎金,不得主張扣抵。"},{"start":20693.086,"end":20708.207,"text":"委員廖偉翔等提案第17條接避行為得給予獎金者﹐其獎金給予基準及相關事項之規定由各目的事業主管機關定之﹐任職至政府機關構﹐法人、團體或僱主對於接避者依法令所得領取之檢舉獎金不得主張扣抵。"},{"start":20709.088,"end":20734.931,"text":"公務員因揭弊至不法案件受查獲應享相關之行政獎勵。」委員楊瓊玲等提案第16條因揭弊者之舉報或提供相關具體事證而查獲不法事實者應給予獎金。揭弊者同時有兩人以上時,視為共同揭弊者。第一項獎金發給之標準及其他相關事項由主管機關會同各法規之主管機關定之。"},{"start":20736.226,"end":20762.365,"text":"委員林月琴等提案第二十三條一﹐相關法規公部門得就接避行為給予獎金者其獎金給予基準及相關事項之規定由各目的事業主管機關定之。請向秦琴四部門得就其內部規章的給予獎金者從其規定。任職之政府機關購法人團體或雇主對於接避者依法令所得領取之檢舉獎金不得主張扣抵。委員洪孟凱等提案第十七條"},{"start":20764.131,"end":20776.076,"text":"對照委員林月琴等提案第23條處將第一項的默劇修正為由各目的事業主管機關案主管機關辦法定之外其餘相同。"},{"start":20778.537,"end":20801.151,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第17條因揭弊者之揭弊而查獲不法事實者應給予獎金但因行使共權力而得之不法事實之政府機關構及其所屬人員配偶或三信等以內之親屬不在此限。揭弊人認知之政府機關構、法人、團體或僱主對於揭弊者依法令所得領取之檢舉獎金不得主張扣抵。"},{"start":20802.091,"end":20819.899,"text":"第一項獎金發給之標準及其他相關事項由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關定之但其數額不得低於違反法令者應皆必所受罰金、沒收之財物或財產上利益、追徵價額、財產抵償之總額10%。」委員徐巧芯等提案第17條同委員洪孟楷等提案第17條"},{"start":20827.506,"end":20838.982,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第17條無故騷擾違反檢察官或法官以本法所為之命令或裁定者處三年以下由其徒刑拘役或科新台幣五十萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":20840.219,"end":20857.42,"text":"委員林月琴等提案第24條接避者保護官就主管機關調查認定為接避通報事由或接避者所屬事業單位或機關構有違反本法規定之行為且情節重大者得向法院訴請停止或禁止該行為。前項訴訟免繳裁判費。"},{"start":20861.042,"end":20889.165,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條為保障接避者之權益接避者保護委員會得辦理下列業務一、協助接避者以本法主張除去不利措施及請求損害賠償等權益二、提供接避者必要的法律諮詢與法律輔助三、協助接避者或其密切關係人以本法請求人身安全之保護措施及安置措施四、提供接避者緊急之生理"},{"start":20890.046,"end":20906.539,"text":"心理、醫療與生活重建之協助 接避者保護之宣導倡議及研究 其他符合接避者保護之事項。主管機關應調派專任人員或聘用專業人員呈主任委員之命,協助辦理接避者保護委員會之業務。"},{"start":20908.427,"end":20922.563,"text":"委員徐巧芯等提案第18條接避者所揭露之內容若為明顯虛偽不實或意圖栽贓毀謗他人便造證據,隱瞞不分事實者,以行為事實與情節,以誣告偽證罪交由檢調機關調查後依法起訴。"},{"start":20927.372,"end":20952.105,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第18條本法施行細則由行政院會同司法院考試院定之委員廖偉翔等提案第18條本法施行細則由行政院會同司法院考試院監察院定之委員楊瓊英等提案第19條本法施行細則由行政院會同司法院及考試院定之"},{"start":20953.166,"end":20980.065,"text":"委員林月琴等提案第二十五條同委員吳宗憲等提案第十八條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十九條同委員吳宗憲等提案第十八條委員吳宗憲等提案第十九條本法施行日期由行政院定之委員廖偉翔等提案第十九條本法自公布後一年施行"},{"start":20982.304,"end":21004.494,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第20條同委員吳宗憲等提案第19條委員林月琴等提案第26條及委員洪孟楷等提案第18條及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第20條及委員徐巧芯等提案第19條均同委員廖偉翔等提案第19條宣讀完畢。"},{"start":21012.483,"end":21020.145,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":21037.421,"end":21065.082,"text":"沒有特別想法所以這樣的話我們今天就不進入主條本次的會議就進行到這邊議程討論事項還有位級處理部分我們定期繼續審查這樣大家才不用一直在這邊等著他們協商的人回來現在就散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15922","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15922","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d30a6515091f25b86ce1f9dc46489d2413be8d109af184be409e0483acb4d7a0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-16","start_time":"2024-05-16T08:31:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-21"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:23:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10320,"委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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常事"},{"start":2013.918,"end":2032.589,"text":"亞東太平洋司藍夏里藍司長﹐亞西及非洲司賀仲義賀司長﹐歐洲司黃君耀黃司長﹐北美司王良玉王司長﹐拉美及加勒比海司鄭麗成鄭司長﹐條約法律司連建成連司長﹐國際組織司李冠德副司長﹐"},{"start":2045.778,"end":2057.302,"text":"國際合作及經濟事務司聯育平聯司長國際傳播司徐永梅徐司長研究設計會林士新副主任李斌處李志強李處長秘書處洪振榮洪處長人事處黃麗玲黃處長政風處周志信周處長儲計處李佩華李處長"},{"start":2077.468,"end":2104.287,"text":"資訊及電務處林啟文林處長公眾外交協調會劉永健執行長非政府組織國際事務會陳剛毅執行長領事事務局何振環何局長台灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基金會李志宏副秘書長"},{"start":2106.313,"end":2115.72,"text":"財團法人、臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺、廖執行長國家安全局副局長柯承亨、柯副局長"},{"start":2121.394,"end":2136.984,"text":"本日會議邀請僑委會、外交部以及國安局報告中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為．並備質詢首先請僑委會呂副委員長上台報告主席、各位委員、各位先進、大家好"},{"start":2149.961,"end":2174.098,"text":"個人很榮幸應邀列席大院就中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為進行專案報告深感榮幸敬請各位委員先進會與指導今天的報告分成三個面向來向各位先進做簡要的說明第一是有關於中國海外統戰工作的態樣與情況"},{"start":2175.859,"end":2200.07,"text":"第二是有關於對海外僑設影響及案例的分析第三是本會的應處作為中國近年來對僑務工作躍趨積極在中國夢大戰略的總體架構之下追求民族復興貫徹一國兩制和平統一的目標中國國家主席習近平在2013年也提出大僑務的理念"},{"start":2201.07,"end":2210.845,"text":"根據就有八大會僑計劃以及成立華人互助中心僑夢院等等的工程在2021年中國共產黨統一戰線的工作"},{"start":2214.031,"end":2232.42,"text":"條例裡面特別增加了僑務工作的論述另外中國全國政協主席王滬寧今年出席全國統戰部長會議的時候也發表了今年要著力做好港澳台海外及民營經濟的統戰工作等等的論調採取軟硬"},{"start":2235.021,"end":2256.049,"text":"堅持的策略無所不用其極的統戰伎倆來爭取海外僑社支持中國夢的實現並以反毒促動為基調滲透、分化有我的力量爭取在海外僑社的話語權另一方面中國外移的人口大幅增加也造成了僑社結構的"},{"start":2258.03,"end":2275.996,"text":"本質改變,因此僑務工作將面臨各項的險峻挑戰,情勢越加艱難。歸納中國近期的海外僑界統戰工作的態樣,包括以下幾個面向,第一是以軟性的文化教育等等,"},{"start":2279.299,"end":2290.952,"text":"這裏頭包括向孔子學院、魯班工坊以及體育、武術課程等等的方式來輸出共產主義的文化思想宣傳中國進步開放的形象"},{"start":2291.513,"end":2306.306,"text":"第2設立警僑事務服務站來製造海外僑界潛在的威脅大家都曉得在中國在全球53個國家設立有102所的警僑事務服務站進行收集情資並監控、跟蹤、調查"},{"start":2310.828,"end":2336.003,"text":"他們的海外異議人士已經對海外的僑界產生普遍的負面效應第三軟硬兼施滲透分化海外的向心中國為增加在海外僑界的影響力同時要弱化我方在僑社與中華民國臺灣的連結持續藉由以下各種手段來進行拉攏僑社向心例如邀宴、邀訪"},{"start":2336.903,"end":2354.591,"text":"透過親情、鄉情、忠誼、商機、民族主義、低利貸款等各樣的工具來進行這項工作。第四是融入當地的華媒以及反獨畜童組織、詆毀我僑務以及民主發展的成果。"},{"start":2355.712,"end":2372.772,"text":"一方面籠絡當地的華美促龍組織,二方面也藉由接觸我僑務榮譽職的方式以錯假訊息進行認知作戰,散播包括兩岸終究要統一,統一對台灣比較好等等的這些統戰宣傳。"},{"start":2374.895,"end":2394.355,"text":"一方面打壓我方二方面全面的抄襲模仿我政府推動有成的僑務工作中國不斷的抄襲我方的僑務措施包括例如像我方舉辦多年的非華青年消防研習營那從今年開始中國也開始模仿舉辦等等"},{"start":2395.896,"end":2420.745,"text":"第二段要跟大家報告是有關於對海外僑社的影響以及案例的分析那有關的相關案例呢今天舉出大概有三個面向第一是施壓的部分那藉由施壓分化或者是來利誘干預僑團的運作例如最近媒體都有披露在今年的4月世界台灣商會聯合總會在越南河內"},{"start":2421.525,"end":2437.495,"text":"遭開第三十屆的年會的時候,那包含我們國內的政府首長都因為中共的打壓,因此無法順利的出席。那這對我們世界的台商來說是一個非常大的打擊。"},{"start":2438.416,"end":2454.163,"text":"臺商普遍表示不滿,活動中尤其藉機干預施壓,不允許具有中華民國像國旗、國家象徵的意象的像國旗、像部會"},{"start":2458.947,"end":2471.554,"text":"中共的干預施壓也繼續不斷他用干預的方式例如我們在中美洲有一個中美洲五國暨巴拉馬舉行了數十年的肯親大會"},{"start":2472.475,"end":2500.701,"text":"那一直以來這個懇親大會的內容都是中美洲一共六個國家六個國家呢每一年經由這種懇親的方式然後大家進行一個聯誼那同時也選舉了華富小姐那頒給她獎學金來推動親善的一些公益的活動那中共呢就進行對這個團體進行干預從2023年開始他們就強行要求去通過"},{"start":2502.292,"end":2520.18,"text":"一個決議是為兩岸和平統一堅持一國原則以後要懸掛什麼國旗唱什麼國歌等等其實這些作為都是中共的干預以及施壓在邦交國的異動方面也越來越見劇烈"},{"start":2522.472,"end":2549.33,"text":"那第三個部分是有關於利誘的方式中共常常利用利誘的方式剛剛提到幾個手段呢那企圖來干預僑團本身舉辦活動的儀節那比如說他就對要求座位的安排刻意要矮化我方或者是說要在什麼地方舉辦如果有出現國旗或是國父儀像的地方他要刻意的要求主辦方必須要遮蔽他"},{"start":2550.191,"end":2576.022,"text":"因為他不願意見到我們國旗他就要求去干預去對這些社團施壓第二項是有關於透過各項的接觸管道以及統戰的話術來遊說拉攏有我的力量包含說比如說強勢的去拉攏接觸傳統僑社打壓我國第二就是說中國有成立一個統促會包含說合同會"},{"start":2577.102,"end":2595.974,"text":"或是說統促會都積極的接觸有計劃的接觸我們的僑務榮譽指人員以及重要僑領來進行各項統戰的宣傳第三種類型是用商業的交流、商機利用甚至我剛剛提到的像低利貸款等等來對於商業團體進行事業的統戰"},{"start":2599.737,"end":2611.511,"text":"這種種的方式都可以看出來說所謂的中共一直在干預這個社團的運作然後藉由人數的優勢來進入相關的僑社團體然後藉所謂的量變到質變的一個過程"},{"start":2620.555,"end":2623.358,"text":"第4項是運用知通的手段及警僑服務戰來干擾僑社僑務工作的推展"},{"start":2640.856,"end":2667.414,"text":"舉例來說像2022年11月我們在法國巴黎成立一所叫做由書院藝術文化學校所成立的臺灣華語文學系中心他們負責任的FB的粉絲專頁還有他的手機都很明顯校長的手機很明顯的發生異常的現象經由當地立即通報法國的警政單位然後進行了解然後我們僑委會也提供相關的資安"},{"start":2668.775,"end":2687.043,"text":"知通安的協助能夠讓這個事件很快的能夠化解掉同時也提醒其他在各地的台灣華語文學習中心要注意慎防中共他們的利用這些知通手段、滲透的方式來對我們進行監控以及干擾"},{"start":2688.183,"end":2707.34,"text":"第5項是我們注意到中共的統戰觸角有向下伸展的趨勢他積極的在拉攏僑居國的青少年那這裡頭他就提出很多比較軟性的一些文化活動比如說他就是擴大青年的交流"},{"start":2708.021,"end":2735.577,"text":"我叫做五年五萬名交流生等等的這些這些工程計劃然後他們在菲律賓也提出所謂的造血計劃要在菲律賓招募300名的華裔學生到中國去學習華語文再回到菲律賓來來擔任他們的華語文的教學然後在各地舉辦中國的尋根之旅以及我們也看到說他們的在去年度"},{"start":2736.578,"end":2737.099,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2753.989,"end":2772.705,"text":"中國去訪問10天內容還安排他們唱華語歌曲其實華語歌曲是統戰歌曲等等這些工作都可以看得出來其實所謂的文化活動他是表面他的背後應該包含的相關的這些統戰的一個作為那"},{"start":2774.517,"end":2802.175,"text":"有關於本會應處作為方面我們提出來有四個面向第一是要弘揚自由民主的普世價值那我們我國堅守自由民主法治人權的核心理念已經獲得全世界的肯定以及喬瑟的支持那我們舉個例子像紐約中華公所他們每年慶祝雙十國慶然後中國呢也刻意要去影響他的選舉"},{"start":2803.876,"end":2831.051,"text":"在中華工作裡面進行他們這些選舉的干預等等那我們應該要繼續去弘揚自由民主的價值然後透過這些多元的這些活動以及創新的活動來介紹我們自由民主的台灣那同時也要提高僑團對中國威權本質的認識以及警覺性第二項是有關於要建立多元的平台來深化我國"},{"start":2832.533,"end":2837.848,"text":"與僑界之間的互動聯繫那這一方面僑界我們在"},{"start":2839.989,"end":2861.089,"text":"也注意到說中國不斷的滲透我們的僑社因此我們也要在僑界的網路多元協力方面我們會透過海外各地一共有我們有3000個僑團4萬多家的台商有上千所的僑校以及在海外有許許多多留台的畢業僑生我們有這樣子的一個網絡"},{"start":2862.27,"end":2862.39,"text":"主席"},{"start":2879.064,"end":2900.432,"text":"聯繫溝通來適時的舉辦各項的活動那本會首長也經常性的應僑團的邀請到海外訪問僑社也聽取僑界的心聲另外我們也在僑界的青年扎根工作方面繼續的匯聚相關僑胞的能量厚植僑務網路來壯大我們的僑社也壯大臺灣"},{"start":2903.553,"end":2928.79,"text":"那第三項是要攜手僑界來爭取臺灣的國際參與我們很感謝海外很多非常支持中華民國熱愛臺灣的僑胞他們每一年對於說臺灣在世界衛生組織受到不公平的待遇紛紛的挺身而出然後捲起袖子來支持臺灣要能夠參與WHA的各項活動那尤其對於說"},{"start":2930.871,"end":2948.012,"text":"提出來的這些號召都受到各國的肯定比如說他們說Health for allAll for health其實這就是非常有意義的一個在國際間對於台灣非常有意義的一個文宣那我們在各地的僑胞也都支持台灣"},{"start":2948.653,"end":2948.753,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2969.369,"end":2988.88,"text":"致謝協助救災等等其實這些都是對於我們的國際參與非常有幫助最後一項我們特別要跟大家報告就是說交會會將機先來應對中國各式新型態統戰的威脅那我們會結合新媒體交會會也建制了包含我們有X包含有"},{"start":2989.941,"end":3008.91,"text":"有FB的還有我們的官方的網站LINE的平台以及我們Instagram等等利用各個不同受眾不同TA對象我們建置了不同的這些管道不同的通路能夠適時將台灣正確的動態訊息提供給海外僑社同時也傳達我們國家對僑胞的關懷以及對僑民權益的種種訊息"},{"start":3017.034,"end":3030.253,"text":"當然即時、便捷、快速是我們這項工作的一個我們所定定的策略目標也希望能夠藉由加強跨部門以及僑切的合作打擊錯假訊息那能夠會說各項的"},{"start":3032.056,"end":3047.508,"text":"海外統戰的情形也能夠在國內能夠跨部會來進行相關的這些包括比如說我們有事實查核中心那我們僑委會也特別成立了在我們的官網成立了我們的澄清專區能夠提供給僑界有正確的訊息"},{"start":3048.809,"end":3076.559,"text":"那我想今天的報告我們也特別提到了說井橋服務站的事情那在今年的4月美國的聯邦調查局也在紐約逮捕了兩名涉嫌運作井橋事務服務站的美籍華人可見中共他們不是運用他自己本身的人進來他是透過運用當地的人的方式因此也引起了美國司法部門高度的關切"},{"start":3078.099,"end":3094.965,"text":"這項工作事實上是涉及到侵犯在地國他們主權的一個行為,這個應該各國都會非常的注意。我們本會將持續的祕註中國在海外統戰的這些動態,並且不以零和遊戲競逐的"},{"start":3096.445,"end":3096.805,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":3146.9,"end":3151.323,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、先生、大家早安"},{"start":3152.639,"end":3180.143,"text":"感謝大院貴委員會安排本部就中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為進行專題報告並備質詢。以下請就順便報告的重點說明如下,敬請各位委員指教。中共的統戰工作早已遍及世界各地,我國和許多國家已有戒心,並且建立惡組中共滲透的機制。"},{"start":3181.55,"end":3201.14,"text":"近年來美國國會以及美澳智庫都曾經發表相關的研究報告揭露中共海外統戰的任務包羅萬象而且無孔不入習近平在他的領導之下統戰組織在中國的總體外交政策扮演的角色越來越重要"},{"start":3202.236,"end":3222.761,"text":"中共的中央統一戰線工作部吸收海外的華人以及華人團體為其工作利用附屬組織針對外國個人以及國家展開拉攏以及滲透的行動對象包括外國政治人物、政黨、商人、學者、學生以及大眾等等"},{"start":3223.621,"end":3235.816,"text":"他們的方法主要是以金錢的力量來消除對中共的負面批評甚至負荷中共的立場消弱國際有我的力量使他們成為中共的協力者"},{"start":3237.503,"end":3265.195,"text":"中共海外統戰主要的目的包括破壞以及阻擾我們的對外關係孤立我國將我們從國際社會完全排除當然這樣的作為對我們邦交的維持以及推動其他的對外關係造成了負面的影響以及挑戰那就中國企圖鬆動我們邦交關係的主要統戰手段跟各位委員報告如下第一是透過經濟脅迫或"},{"start":3268.496,"end":3284.314,"text":"竟然利誘我們的友邦來外交轉向相關的案例非常的多不勝美舉那我們在這邊舉出的例子是2017年中方限制中國的旅客到帛琉去旅遊那請大家參閱書面的資料參考"},{"start":3286.67,"end":3311.555,"text":"第二就是加強鞏固國際的一中格局特別是扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議誤導國際視聽藉此來挖我們的外交牆角比如說在今年我們總統大選後兩天又拉我們的友邦諾魯來外交轉向此外中國現階段也透過我們友邦的鄰近國家來進行滲透"},{"start":3314.431,"end":3338.358,"text":"勸說我們的友邦跟我國斷交並跟中國建交製造我們邦交國內部的紛擾以及壓力第三是以商為政分化某我例如中國在我們一些友邦裡面呢利用親中的政要、僑團或者是鼓動臨近國家的中級的商人"},{"start":3339.572,"end":3367.368,"text":"擁入這些國家,擔任中方的代理人滲透朝野的政要,鬆動我們的邦交關係基礎。相關的例子,例如說我們也在密切的觀察今年11月我們的友邦帛琉也要舉行總統大選,所以我們必須嚴加防範注意中方是不是要將利用以及使用各種經濟的手段來企圖影響帛琉大選以及它未來的政局。"},{"start":3368.953,"end":3389.861,"text":"第四,也就是認知作戰,藉選造謠。除了我們剛剛所提的土瓦魯今年的例子,外交轉向,那實際上的情況包括了在他們的大選之前,多次透過中國的官媒接觸當地的媒體,發表土國將外交轉向的評論以外,"},{"start":3391.821,"end":3411.609,"text":"嚴判未來中國也會故技重施在我們其他的友邦圖謀操控輿論進行認知作戰常見的手法除了釋放假民調以外也包括透過僑設作為媒介派出官媒記者滲透結合相關媒體來發布錯假訊息或是意圖帶動風向"},{"start":3418.629,"end":3446.939,"text":"第五點是收買我們友邦的媒體來宣傳親中的論述或者是惡意操作、詆毀跟我們友邦情誼的各種報導那這邊除了再次我們看到有土瓦魯這個選舉的例子以外那另外中國人民解放軍系統也曾經接洽《帛琉報》企圖在帛琉成立親中的媒體配合散佈中國官方的立場"},{"start":3448.703,"end":3469.31,"text":"相關的新聞的這個發布藉此來操弄帛琉的輿情面對中國的統戰手段就像我們剛剛所陳述的各項作為那麼外交部針對以上的這種統戰的作為我們的因應的做法跟各位報告如下第一就是"},{"start":3470.745,"end":3486.875,"text":"我們會全力的繼續鞏固我們的邦交,那麼我們會定期的要求我們的大使館檢視邦交關係的各項的層面,尤其要嚴防中國滲透友邦的政商界的各種圖謀"},{"start":3488.757,"end":3501.697,"text":"當然,因為外交關係的動態變化瞬息萬變,所以我們除了定期做雙邊關係的評估以外,也是全天候隨時掌握相關的變化作為妥善的因應。"},{"start":3502.915,"end":3518.902,"text":"第二,我們也繼續會強化跟邦交國的合作動能,建立永續的夥伴關係,外交部將持續來推動元首外交,深化跟友邦的雙邊合作,尤其是善用我國優勢領域,尋求雙方在經貿、投資、基礎建設"},{"start":3524.545,"end":3542.283,"text":"文化、農技、綠能這些領域的合作同時也加強跟友邦合作來訓練他們的人才以及各種人才的交流另外也提供我們友邦學生獎學金來台接受高等的教育來繼續厚植友邦的對於我們友好的這些人脈"},{"start":3545.567,"end":3561.384,"text":"3.繼續強化與理念相近國家在邦交國的合作外交部將要持續強化與美國、日本、澳洲這些理念相近國家在邦交國的各項合作、計畫以及資訊交流分享"},{"start":3562.245,"end":3581.531,"text":"先期掌握因應中國企圖挖我牆角外交牆角的這種舉措也要確保我們這些合作都是符合我們友邦的需求也對他的國際民生跟永續發展都有長遠正面影響第四也就是讓我們的友邦能夠更加瞭解中國"},{"start":3582.551,"end":3583.111,"text":"中國經常背信的這樣的風險"},{"start":3612.225,"end":3640.044,"text":"第五也就是加強反制中國認識作戰的這種統戰的伎倆那外交部會協同我們的各個駐外的使館持續如果有任何統戰的這種錯假訊息在第一時間做出澄清說明另外我們會強化與民主國家的合作以及公司部門的協力培養民眾的識讀能力對於惡意操作的訊息進行適當的反擊"},{"start":3643.605,"end":3661.45,"text":"在結語部分跟國委員報告中國是從來沒有放棄要挖我們的外交牆角他們的圖謀跟行徑近年來變本加厲對我們步步進逼維繫跟邦交的關係一向是外交部的最重要工作我們將會持續全力鞏固維繫邦交關係嚴防中國統戰又拉我們友邦的轉向"},{"start":3668.672,"end":3679.317,"text":"不要讓中國的圖謀輕易得逞再次感謝貴委員會以及各位委員先進對外交部的支持與鼓勵也請各位委員多多指教及協助謝謝接下來請國安局科副局長上台報告"},{"start":3695.117,"end":3723.486,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位女士先生、大家早非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為專題報告僅就中共海外統戰目標工作太陽對我影響及應處建議四個面向向各位委員報告如下第一部分中共海外統戰目標一"},{"start":3724.537,"end":3750.352,"text":"在增進僑界認同中共中共在2020年有新修訂中國共產黨統一戰線工作條例目的是在對海外統戰工作的任務在加強對華僑跟留學生對中國跟中國共產黨的熱愛跟認同以營造友中的友好環境促進統一二次台獨"},{"start":3752.475,"end":3777.808,"text":"2、團結海外的華僑中共全國政協主席王滬寧在今年初全國統戰部長會議下達指示要助勞中華民主共同體意識做好港澳台海外統戰和僑務工作統戰部長石泰峰也指示要增強涉僑部門的統戰意識要壯大之中有中的力量第二部分中共海外統戰工作的太陽"},{"start":3779.13,"end":3807.579,"text":"部件親中的政商網絡中共運用政治獻金、協助經商、招待旅遊等方式又拉各國的官員、公務員、議員跟離退人員甚至對於一些仕途、前景良好、具有潛力、影響力可接觸、涉密資訊的親中力量來進行培植包括在澳洲、英國、德國、歐洲議會都有傳出"},{"start":3808.885,"end":3825.181,"text":"包括官員、議員跟助理因為收集協助中共收集機敏資訊而觸法的案例二、建立代理機構掩護統戰滲透中共在海外建立井橋驛站就是井橋服務站基金會協"},{"start":3826.992,"end":3846.466,"text":"商業協會、孔子學院文化中心、統促會、僑社等代理機構甚至在駐外的館處徵社領事、志工等職務滲透各國社會基層灌輸親中的意識並藉機鎖定及打壓反中的異議人士"},{"start":3848.412,"end":3866.663,"text":"運用經貿工具影響各國涉入的政策中共利用關稅及貿易壁壘管制關鍵物品出口以及開放入客旅遊等經貿手段誘破各國政府採取對中共有利的政策措施例如中共海關總署2021年"},{"start":3868.245,"end":3881.143,"text":"將立法院從海關總署的電子作業系統中移除導致立國的商品無法報關跟進入大陸的港口用藉此施壓立國誤同意我國設立台灣代表處"},{"start":3883.581,"end":3902.933,"text":"爭取國際組織要職宣誡中共主張中共近幾年來積極向各國際組織推薦入籍人才甚至在各國際組織裡面爭取要職宣傳中共政策理念並收集有力中共參與制定規則的相關資訊"},{"start":3904.673,"end":3932.028,"text":"中共也在包括聯合國良農組織秘書長選舉的時候跟各國用利益交換的方式來支持這個屈東裕接任良農組織的秘書長另外這個屈東裕上任之後利用這個組織內入籍幹部的這個職權協助支持中共一帶一路的項目"},{"start":3933.103,"end":3943.984,"text":"另外英國下議院外交委員會最近也有透露中共曾經行賄聯合國人權事務高級專員要求資金不得用於台灣邦交國"},{"start":3945.617,"end":3969.676,"text":"5加強認知作戰引導各國輿情中共吸取2014年俄羅斯網路部隊對克里米亞認知作戰以及2022年俄烏戰事輿論戰等經驗加強在不同國家內傳佈傳散錯假訊息影響當地民眾的認知甚至製造對立2024年2月加拿大"},{"start":3970.436,"end":3990.572,"text":"的學術機構就揭露中共透由民間公關公司深圳海脈雲翔傳媒有限公司提供韓國、日本、俄國、英、美等30餘國特定網媒宣傳的材料傳散美國科學家是洩漏新冠病毒的元兇藉以攻擊美國跟盟邦"},{"start":3992.571,"end":4020.534,"text":"第三部分對我維持邦以及推展僑務的影響一拉攏海外親中政商人士鬆動我邦交中共運用陸棄國際組織僑社同鄉會以及協助基礎建設提供資通設備建立學術合作等方式拉攏我邦交國官員、國會議員、商會領袖、記者誘破我邦交國外交轉向二"},{"start":4021.431,"end":4045.463,"text":"又拉清台橋設及台橋中共這幾年來不斷地在策動海外傳統橋設策下我國國旗並掛上中共五星旗而且用各種包括邀約訪路提供金援發放伴手禮協助創業等方式又拉台橋另外針對海外突發事件"},{"start":4046.483,"end":4057.451,"text":"事實派員探視並聲稱可提供領事保護等協助爭取謀求海外台僑跟有我僑團對中共的向心力。動員統促委及僑民"},{"start":4059.56,"end":4084.338,"text":"反制我外交作為中共不斷透由海外統促會在我選舉期間或是我們外國政要訪台的時刻發布聯合聲明支持中方的論述並針對我政要外訪過境美國等行程號召侵入僑民進行成抗滋擾外交活動第4部分應處作為一"},{"start":4085.299,"end":4105.916,"text":"加強掌收邦交國預警情訊,針對中共透由海外統戰工作遊說我邦交國政府官員、國會議員等情勢,加強掌收相關預警的徵後,提供政府部門機先應處。二、揭露中共海外統戰手法事實公佈中共海外統戰太陽"},{"start":4107.955,"end":4124.407,"text":"增進海外華人及各國政府民間對中共宣傳知識獨能力推展與理念相同國家合作與國際友方加強分享查查涉入可疑人士、機構、金流背景遏阻中共對我滲透"},{"start":4125.39,"end":4151.587,"text":"活動最後報告結語中共自二十大以來習近平、王滬寧、國台辦主任宋濤持續在對台工作會議等場合宣誓將壯大愛國統一力量動員海外反獨促統力量尤其王滬寧當選統促會會長之後只是要勇於鬥爭敢於鬥爭擔負反獨促統責任顯現中共對我僑界的統戰工作較以往"},{"start":4152.327,"end":4170.253,"text":"更加積極本局將持續統合指導國安團隊收整可能影響我國家利益跟安全的情報有效支援政府決策以上報告敬請大院委員先進不吝指導並持續對本局工作大力支持謝謝"},{"start":4179.38,"end":4196.358,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘,非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":4204.684,"end":4209.107,"text":"謝謝主席 有請外交部陳麗國長賜請外交部陳長賜次長剛剛聽了各個部會的這個報告其實聽完心情是還蠻沉重的因為中國近幾年來確實是無所不用其極用各種管道用各種方式比如說經過文化、教育、民族情感、金錢、外交"},{"start":4234.043,"end":4237.087,"text":"甚至傳遞假訊息對僑胞進行統戰來鼓勵臺灣我想這對我們的僑務工作來講是未來會更加的艱辛尤其是我從國外來對這部分感受是會非常的深"},{"start":4252.705,"end":4275.213,"text":"那比起二三十年前其實台灣對於這個海外橋界的影響力確實是不若以往跟以前真的是很差有段距離可是我在想台灣也不要氣餒因為我們其實就像剛剛各位所報告的我們有自由民主我們有法治人權這些其實都已經受到很多國家"},{"start":4276.133,"end":4279.496,"text":"有個網站有個駭客網站叫做BridgeForums你知道嗎你知道有這個網站嗎是"},{"start":4295.107,"end":4315.837,"text":"這個我想應該是應該曉得了像今年4月17號的時候有一個ID我們說Tony A或是Tony A的網友他貼出了一篇標題叫做Lingvas for MOFA這樣子的一個貼文那在貼文裡面"},{"start":4317.017,"end":4342.367,"text":"很多都是外交部的機密文件比如說有什麼呢有國際發展合作基金針對WHA辦理氣候變遷與健康他要請外交部派員的這個公文那也有外交部跟各邦國在113年2月登號檢表這都是密件那甚至呢駐美代表處的電報也流出來了駐美代表處這個經濟組的公文這些密件"},{"start":4343.047,"end":4352.838,"text":"也都張貼在這個網站那再來兩天之後有一個叫Tony V的他在底下呢就4月19號就張貼了蕭美琴準副總統從美國返國准以免查驗一共價值3萬多台幣的"},{"start":4361.868,"end":4383.344,"text":"23瓶酒的這個公文而且這公文裡面還附了酒類清單清清楚楚的都附在上面那甚至這個Tony B還更明目張膽的說還有很多的內容請有興趣的人付錢換取更多的這個內幕事隔一個月我想請問外交部我們有做清查了嗎?到底流出的管道是什麼?"},{"start":4384.025,"end":4411.072,"text":"是哪裏?是從哪些管道流出來的?是誰流出這些資料?有沒有做清查?我們的網站被害了嗎?請問次長。謝謝委員對於這些事情的重視跟詢問。那麼的確在這一次的事件發生之後以及過去所發生任何的疑似治安的事件外交部都會非常仔細認真嚴格的嚴謹的去調查那這一次也不例外"},{"start":4411.812,"end":4428.542,"text":"那所以經過我們各項的努力作為並且邀請其他相關機關的協助徹查溯源那麼我們的結果是這一次的三項重要的情況是第一個我們排除是一個治安事件"},{"start":4429.082,"end":4429.682,"text":"那是從哪個地方流出?"},{"start":4456.952,"end":4483.883,"text":"對不起是從哪個管道流出來的這個部分當然現在有檢調機關會去做瞭解跟偵查但是我剛剛說明的是針對委員提問外交部的部分有沒有這樣的疑慮沒有那所以包括第三部分就是說那接下來其他是由什麼樣的管道露出以及那麼接下來如果繼續去了解這個未來如何去防堵那我們會繼續加強我們包括本部如果說定期的系統監控"},{"start":4492.952,"end":4504.345,"text":"我只想請教一下次長,因為次長您現在的回答其實好像沒有回答到我想要的這個問題。比如說,這個Tony A也好,Tony B也好,他們的身份如何?這有查出來了嗎?"},{"start":4505.82,"end":4531.573,"text":"關於這一點的話因為這個事實上涉及它的來源那麼很多來源是難以追溯的而且它的IP的這種都會經過轉換或者甚至經過第三個國家等於說這些追查的難度當然會非常高那我們現在剛剛所表達跟訴說的重點是在於說是不是治安事件是不是被害是不是有外交部的員工內部流出這些都不是"},{"start":4533.793,"end":4556.659,"text":"那這樣子的話我們的機密的文件可以隨意的裝貼在任何一個網站可是看起來外交部好像還不清楚這個是從哪個管道出來的其實這不是單一事件因為在2023年這個論壇還有另外一個叫做NiceDay009的知道嗎就這個人士他裝貼了台灣情報人員的機密檔案然後這個檔案裡面包含了這個"},{"start":4563.361,"end":4584.155,"text":"臺灣情報人員的基本的個人資料、家庭背景、工作條件、人口特質、日常活動、政治傾向等等所以我在想說這絕對不是單一事件這個是很嚴重的事情欸次長這個部分的話是個一個多月好像我們好像除了說不是我們外交部流出來的之外其他的訊息好像還無法掌握的感覺"},{"start":4585.355,"end":4609.133,"text":"倒也應該是說這樣來描述比較正確而是說有關於這個文件到底是如何外流當然我們會非常重視而且會請尤其是整個案子相關的機關來互相資訊交流然後配合整個情況的調查那當然這也是包括我們的檢舉機關可能會持續會深入去了解這個案件那麼剛剛最後一點補充這個要由其他的相關的負責的機關來回答"},{"start":4613.756,"end":4624.403,"text":"就行政機關而言我們要所處理的部分是有關於本部的所以你們確認你們裡面是沒有內鬼是的那最後一點當然是因為相關的文件所表露出的還有許多的其他相關機關所以等於是說我們現在看到這樣一個因為駭客技術的發達去偷竊文件的技術發達"},{"start":4635.951,"end":4646.847,"text":"可是次長您剛才說這不是被害啊你也覺得這不是被害我的意思是在強調說文件被竊取這樣的技術還有管道其實當然越來越多元科技也越發達那我們當然從外交部的角度來看"},{"start":4650.772,"end":4671.943,"text":"會持續全力來捍衛保護我們的資安的還有我們的文件的機敏那但是整體來看這是一個非常複雜的工程包括我們其他很多負責資安包括上次國安會包括國安局很多的機關每一個都在慎重努力的處理希望不要有這種外洩的事件那所以包括我們的針鋒處、自列處在這個案子裡面我們都有非常審慎的調查"},{"start":4674.042,"end":4696.078,"text":"OK 好 謝謝次長其實我覺得這也是蠻嚴重的一個問題真的是外交部要審慎以對如此機密的這些文件會被張貼在這些駭客網站我們真的不得不慎這跟國家安全有是一個很大的警訊我是這麼覺得在這部分應該要大家嚴肅看待OK 好 以上謝謝"},{"start":4704.242,"end":4709.086,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢謝謝主席 麻煩國安局副局長請國安局副局長委員長副局長早"},{"start":4735.148,"end":4750.818,"text":"520將屆,坦白說因為執政的延續,我也不認為各位是所謂的看守內閣,因為各位都在這個位置上,不管外交、僑務或者是國安事務上都相當的時間,所以還有一個延續性。另外一個延續性是國家利益,就是"},{"start":4751.418,"end":4771.824,"text":"國家利益不會因為政權的更迭、政黨的輪替而有所改變常常是人對國家利益的認知會中斷人跟人的互動、政黨跟政黨會因為認知上的差異會有一些利益上的中斷所以我現在要請教一個520前跟520後的事情"},{"start":4773.104,"end":4784.414,"text":"在520前這兩天國際主流媒體報導像VOA是美國之音還有很多國際媒體報導說中國正在加大"},{"start":4786.378,"end":4813.107,"text":"對臺灣的各方面的壓力他指的有軍事的有灰色地帶的有認知作戰的甚至於到各個國家去反遊說希望各國的政要不要參加臺灣520的就職典禮我都認為這個是等而下之的這個是最low的手段去各國叫人家不要來參加那還有一些軍事的手段就國安局目前有沒有掌握在520前"},{"start":4815.208,"end":4827.977,"text":"中共可能對台灣一個民主的盛會民主的選舉有人勝有人敗但是民主本身是勝利的我們的民選的過程你們有沒有掌握任何情資"},{"start":4829.639,"end":4848.991,"text":"跟委員報告就本局跟整個國安團隊事實上針對520總統就職當然都有相關的一些維安重點的一些專案520之前我們光是看最近這幾天包括中共"},{"start":4850.786,"end":4874.796,"text":"連對我們電視台上媒體評論的那五個算我學弟了我已經被懲罰兩次了我現在不想問我們知道的東西我直接問有沒有異常的軍事調動對岸目前沒有異常的軍事調動但是目前為止沒有異常的軍事調動有沒有異常的船舶調動異常船舶調動"},{"start":4879.07,"end":4899.785,"text":"坦白講對我們周邊的海域中共事實上灰色侵擾事實上比以前更嚴重他的軍艦或者不管是052啦或者相關的軍艦在台灣周邊騷擾日本騷擾南海騷擾那個是不對的但是那個是常態性的我現在講不正常的是有沒有"},{"start":4900.706,"end":4909.832,"text":"比方說我們講Roro Boat比方說它的滾裝貨輪有沒有不正常的船舶的調動目前掌握的情況沒有有沒有火箭軍的調動"},{"start":4911.414,"end":4933.15,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟國防部都持續在關注我尊重某些事情保密是基於國家利益我跟委員報告就是沒有特殊特別異常的一些在520前軍事上沒有特殊異常的網路上呢網路上對有沒有升高我們從量跟值"},{"start":4935.45,"end":4954.649,"text":"網路上是認知作戰、假錯假訊息﹖不管是disinformation﹖或者是mailware﹖就是說有的是惡性軟體﹖有的是假錯訊息﹖一個是程式﹖一個是內容﹖有沒有升高的趨勢﹖因為我們放了很多Honey Hub在偵測這些東西﹖應該都有數據﹖"},{"start":4957.689,"end":4981.229,"text":"這個部分中共對我們的一些錯假訊息的傳算本來就相當多常態性的惡意我們都知道我說有沒有異常有沒有異常那個網路的清早你沒有掌握就沒有掌握網路清早有增加增加多少百分比我請我們的這個科技部門那個先講Malware就是說這些惡意軟體"},{"start":4982.518,"end":5010.132,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關於網路侵擾的部分這是有比在今年1月就是選舉之後到最近0511日左右都是持續增加的趨勢那原本是從100多萬次到現在有你100多萬次是每日還是每小時每日的每日100萬次對然後到現在的是250幾萬次"},{"start":5012.253,"end":5035.451,"text":"增加那麼多是你現在講的次數是針對我們的基礎建設的網站還是所有針對政府政府機關的民間的還沒有算進去學術網路也沒有算進去嘛是所以不含學術網不含民間網光政府的網站攻擊次數從選前的每日百萬次現在升高到257萬次那樣態有沒有不一樣"},{"start":5041.277,"end":5048.271,"text":"要找到我們網路設備的漏洞然後進行後續的滲透你們研判他想幹嘛"},{"start":5049.724,"end":5074.387,"text":"也許在520當天我還是講等而下次給你置換front page置換網頁跟委員報告其實就兩個面向一個在隱性的面向一定會包含了所謂的平時竊資那如果是顯性的有可能會在當天會有DDoS的情形或者是說網頁置換您剛剛提到的網頁置換的情況這都不能排除以上報告"},{"start":5074.667,"end":5077.149,"text":"陸透社有一則報導說在就職典禮後那這個就職典禮後的中國的軍事演習壓力會升高你們目前有沒有這樣子的情緒"},{"start":5095.25,"end":5124.19,"text":"跟委員報告大概下半年中共共軍在演習他們演習的密集本來就6到11月6到11月他是他密集的區間本來就是有軍隊就會有演習有演習就有實彈實兵等等這個常態本期間問的是在異常的部分就是有沒有掌握到520後甚至於到7月有沒有共軍異常的或者是以往沒有的新的軍事動作"},{"start":5125.543,"end":5153.343,"text":"我們持續每天都在做一些監看甚至跟我們的一些合作友方都很密切的在做一些聯繫所以你剛才跟我講的方法我們跟五眼聯盟跟友邦跟自由民主同盟我們會有情資的交換我們自己也要這些掌控的能力不管是軍事的掌控或者是情報掌控那我現在問的是結果我不知道國安局能不能讓有時候"},{"start":5154.604,"end":5174.861,"text":"對方的動作揭露也是一種因應之道但我尊重你們的策略選擇我現在問的是520後中共有沒有新增加的或者異常的或者相關的軍事動作不管是軍演或者是侵擾不管是在台海是在離島我們國安局有沒有這方面的情資"},{"start":5175.882,"end":5199.03,"text":"目前還沒有就說掌握到520之後他們有特別的一些打算做的一些軍事的清早就異常的異常的目前是沒有因為異常的話會有些先兆軍事演習不是我們跟委員報告我們對於共軍的動態我們都有好幾個一些預警的徵後軍事演習不是拿個哨子一吹就比賽看誰跑得快不是這樣子"},{"start":5200.11,"end":5216.312,"text":"軍事演習要準備的、要物流的、要相關的logistic assemble,很多動作要做,所以有很多跡象可以去研判,那我也相信貴局或者國防部會進行相關掌握。我現在只是提醒就是,對台灣來講是民主的喜事。"},{"start":5217.273,"end":5245.029,"text":"是人民自由的選擇但獨裁國家永遠不懂不懂什麼叫做尊重人民的選擇不懂什麼叫做民主的選擇政權跟政府是會換的他是人民選擇的不會像習近平一做他做到他高興為止所以在520前後不管是政治、經濟、軍事、網路各方面可能都要提高警覺政期會、政交所"},{"start":5246.789,"end":5248.19,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5282.887,"end":5285.372,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請國安局科副局長"},{"start":5293.533,"end":5313.93,"text":"委員長想跟您請問我延續剛剛這個王定宇委員的題目就是有關於台灣現在所面臨的中國的威脅的部分我想昨天的最新訊息就是中國可以說對於台灣的這個所謂把手伸進來想要做這種打壓過去呢他其實懲戒的可能都是政治人物我們先來看"},{"start":5315.091,"end":5343.878,"text":"但是現在呢他把他的這個所謂的法律戰是不是延伸到了一般的民眾因為過去被點名的都是民進黨級的政治人物但這一次居然連評論的名嘴都登上了他的講法是說因為這些名嘴呢在電視上面蓄意編造有關大陸的虛假負面的訊息那麼挑動兩岸敵意對立傷害兩岸同胞的感情那麼嚴重情節嚴重所以"},{"start":5344.358,"end":5369.394,"text":"要對他們及他們的家屬來實施懲戒言下之意是現在已經從所謂的政治人物延伸到一般民眾而且他刻意當然我必須講這五位當中確實有民進黨籍的這樣的一個政治人物但是他主要都是在媒體上的發言不過撇開這一位"},{"start":5370.294,"end":5394.16,"text":"其他的他就真的是電視上的媒體人站在一個台灣有言論自由的地方是保障言論自由的地方但是中國現在卻把他的法律戰延伸到在台灣的言論自由台灣的發表尤其台灣的媒體像這樣的要噤聲的狀況在這之前國安局有接到這樣的訊息嗎?"},{"start":5395.762,"end":5414.107,"text":"跟委員報告中共對我們台灣的打壓對民主的這種破壞事實上是隨時而且不斷的在加大像這種的目的事實上最主要就是要製造一種寒產的效應所以就像委員說的他以前對政治人物現在他已經擴大到"},{"start":5416.144,"end":5433.017,"text":"媒體人事實上跟委員報告其實過去這幾年不只是對這種官員甚至他們也對台商台灣的企業界有哪一些在支持執政黨"},{"start":5434.438,"end":5434.638,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5457.259,"end":5462.443,"text":"所以他這樣的做法其實就是要利用一種無形的恐懼因為過去他可能是用這種所謂的制裁台獨分子"},{"start":5480.515,"end":5499.676,"text":"但是他現在已經變成是懲戒也就是說懲毒這樣的一個方式變成是一個新的法律名詞而這樣的新法律名詞是把他的法律戰延伸到我們台灣境內你認同嗎?而這樣的方式是不是變成是說只要是一般民眾你就不能發聲如果你一旦發聲你離開台灣"},{"start":5501.818,"end":5508.362,"text":"他就可能對你採取法律行動來看下一張我們過去都知道銅鑼灣事件銅鑼灣事件的大股東他不是在香港被消失他其實是在到泰國去旅行的時候突然間就不見了而且如果根據我們過去所翻閱的資料當時的討論知道這位大股東他還不是說他就是中國香港而已喔他事實上還有其他國家的國籍當時他是瑞典籍"},{"start":5531.135,"end":5551.883,"text":"但是他依舊可以在泰國被消失現在國台辦直接發文說我要對這五以上五個人跟他的家屬實施懲戒國台辦這樣的一個做法國安局怎麼看而你們認為現在是不是連一般民眾就只有留在台灣才安全出去其他國家會不會重演像銅鑼灣這樣的狀況讓你變成是台灣真的香港化先從沒有言論自由從先從被噤聲開始"},{"start":5560.506,"end":5589.302,"text":"各位委員報告我們當然沒辦法認同這樣的作為而且表示譴責我們從中共做這樣的這個恐嚇的動作之後國際媒體的關注度就知道不只我們沒辦法接受連國際民主國家民主陣營民主社會沒有人可以接受這種這種所謂的域外的常備管轄要對民主自由言論進行打壓的各種作為我覺得中共"},{"start":5590.322,"end":5597.17,"text":"雖然只是在對台灣加大恐嚇的力道但是他在國際上引起的負面效應反而會更大"},{"start":5598.257,"end":5620.687,"text":"所以現在國際上面的訊息的正確性是非常重要的因為我們在這過去的8年不斷的強調台灣是台灣台灣不是中國的一部分所以當我們遇到事情的時候我們不能變成是說內部解決我們必須要靠外面國際友邦一起來支撐台灣的自由、民主跟獨立但是我們來看下面喔"},{"start":5621.167,"end":5626.771,"text":"就是現在他如果從官方延伸到民間的時候是有可能切斷國際社會跟我們的連結來看下一張"},{"start":5629.574,"end":5657.5,"text":"其實過去我一直在追包括這個副局長你也知道我問過有關於這種地方包圍中央這種所謂兩手策略一手拉一手打打的部分一拉是說他現在呈現是以通促容讓你覺得說兩岸一家親另外如果說現在民嘴不敢發聲民眾不敢發聲民眾不敢強調自己不是中國人不是支持中國共產黨"},{"start":5658.76,"end":5660.386,"text":"那麼這個打就會出現它的效果那麼台灣變香港的話你認為有沒有可能?"},{"start":5666.257,"end":5690.164,"text":"跟委員報告我想中共做這樣的恐嚇作為但是只是會加深國人的反彈那就是說而且國際上對中共的這種批評跟戒心反而會更大我覺得國人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制"},{"start":5691.344,"end":5705.361,"text":"當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家"},{"start":5707.003,"end":5733.617,"text":"然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外"},{"start":5734.497,"end":5757.918,"text":"他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有兩百八十幾位這些"},{"start":5759.019,"end":5784.47,"text":"就表示說中國對於言論自由的打壓對於批評他們的一些這些人事事上的手段採取越來越強烈但是就像我剛剛跟委員報告的國際上對這個的這個反應跟反制措施應該也會更大好所以呃只剩下最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請這個呃我們的外交部的陳次陳長次對"},{"start":5791.448,"end":5806.64,"text":"面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到的訊息是什麼"},{"start":5807.703,"end":5827.252,"text":"就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科副局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他"},{"start":5828.092,"end":5828.572,"text":"當然不會,外交部會全力而為"},{"start":5857.585,"end":5858.005,"text":"有請國安局"},{"start":5883.528,"end":5906.074,"text":"現在是一個比較敏感的時期因為520之前可能會有很多對於我們國安的問題包含對岸的問題都會產生一個疑慮因為是不是挑釁或是對我們整個國家的安全會不會有其他的一些威脅性我想請教這個比較簡單的就是"},{"start":5908.776,"end":5929.631,"text":"關於中共二十屆三中全會這個情言的問題在中共二十屆三中全會確定以今年的七月來召開這麼晚召開的問題原因是什麼那第二個背景的資料裡面顯示"},{"start":5930.231,"end":5956.388,"text":"每一屆三中全會都是中共最重要的一個會議那三中全會通常會做出重大的一個政策那其議程決定中共新一屆的領導班子那工作重點通常針對經濟發展和經濟體制改革的相關政策那這個問題那你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":5957.675,"end":5985.527,"text":"謝謝委員的確國際上也一直在關注三中全會一再的在延後召開那我們的研判最主要是可能是有比較敏感的這個黨紀的處分的問題就像委員也清楚中共在去年不管是外交部長、國防部長還有火箭軍的高層在連續幾個月之內就是被撤職換人"},{"start":5987.153,"end":5994.106,"text":"但是原因一直沒有說明那像前國防部長李尚武他還是中央委員"},{"start":6001.143,"end":6019.108,"text":"內政是他們的問題,那外政呢?委員剛剛有提到,山中全會除了可能會處理人事、黨紀的處分最重要的就是委員剛剛所提到經濟上的改革的一些重大的政策對我們我國的經濟底勢有沒有"},{"start":6020.893,"end":6025.486,"text":"我想山中全會處理的最主要都是大陸內部的一些...我今天是講外部的"},{"start":6030.104,"end":6051.556,"text":"對針對我們兩岸未來的一個經濟的發展跟我們未來的整個的一個兩岸的一個經濟互通包含文化交流經貿的這個會不會在三中全會裡面也納入針對這個議題你們有沒有掌握這個信息"},{"start":6052.591,"end":6062.442,"text":"坑委員報告中共在內部重要的會議裡面尤其是一些重大的經濟政策出台之後"},{"start":6063.598,"end":6091.693,"text":"一定會連結到對兩岸的一些交流同戰所以我今天講的是內部不管內部是他們的體制那我們先講這兩岸所以山中前會他也特別提到了一個經濟發展包括經濟的體制但不外乎兩岸的經濟的政策所以這個就是要回答給國人未來我們怎麼面對因為他們切分召開"},{"start":6093.054,"end":6109.819,"text":"怎麼面對兩岸之間的經濟的發展這個就是你要跟國人要做一個說明跟我們報告我們隨時在注意當然我們要看三中全會召開之後他確定的在會議中討論的決定的一些政策是什麼"},{"start":6111.039,"end":6139.829,"text":"這是一個很關鍵很關鍵因為現在我們的經濟的下滑而且包含我們現在這個青梅昧日仇中的一個心態所以造成了我們現在整個的經濟的下滑百工百業都非常的難過所以這個部分我必須要跟國安局來報告你們要確實要掌握那如何突破困境這才是我們國人最關心的"},{"start":6140.549,"end":6141.169,"text":"有關於我們大陸的孔子學院與我國的華語文學習中心的問題"},{"start":6163.243,"end":6179.995,"text":"那現在是不是中共已經正在示威那我國在2021年開始開辦華語文學習中心策略性搶進孔子學院的空窗學生"},{"start":6181.776,"end":6190.825,"text":"學生數雖然逐年的成長但去年的人數最多也不過是將近3000人孔子學院則累計187萬人另以數據顯示在孔子學院自民國2020年開始呈現一個負成長"},{"start":6204.418,"end":6223.43,"text":"但最主要的縮減還是在美國和加拿大連我國最友好的日本也關閉了兩所孔子學院在全球乃有重大的影響力即使我們孔子學院關閉不少乃不能說是示威"},{"start":6224.17,"end":6236.465,"text":"那僑委會如認為孔子協議院示威而傾覆本席認為是一件危險的事情你們如何因應跟補救或者是還有新的方向"},{"start":6238.28,"end":6259.86,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問孔子學院基本上它不是單純的一個華語文學習的一個機構它事實上是在進行相關的包含中共它的價值或者說它的革命的這些中心思想輸出因此它裡頭富含有很多的國際宣傳的一個作用"},{"start":6261.101,"end":6290.222,"text":"我們在海外各地目前第一階段在包含美國以及歐洲成立了台灣華語文的學習中心那這個部分是因應學習華語熱潮的需要我們在推動讓主流社會也就是說華語非母語的人士他們提供一個學習華語的機會那這項工作進展非常順利預定在明年度要達到在美國及歐洲達成100所台灣華語文學習中心的目標"},{"start":6294.083,"end":6307.027,"text":"現在的美國跟加拿大關閉了不少的華語語文的學習中心那你說現在要在未來近幾年是要增加幾百所到明年會成立100所"},{"start":6309.262,"end":6336.347,"text":"你們估算是因什麼估算?我們是有透過第一,透過當地包含說師資還有說當地學習華語文的需求以及地區性的考慮因此我們這是分階段現在這個階段是在美國跟歐洲率先來推動成立那將來我們也會考慮現在正在評估就在澳洲、加拿大等各地區有需要還有東南亞國家有需要學習華語文的環境"},{"start":6339.807,"end":6359.593,"text":"我現在不要繞了一圈我現在問的是為什麼要增加一百所的原因因為你們這裡有限制教學的對象為成年人那為什麼現在有一些其他的學校裡面現在是沒那個"},{"start":6362.042,"end":6362.703,"text":"謝謝委員您的關切"},{"start":6380.003,"end":6399.499,"text":"那海外各地呢,一直以來僑委會都有輔導,海外各地都推動於我們,就是說我們一般講說0到12,就是說到高中以下的青年,他們都有成立當地的華語學校,比如說以美國為例,他在美國各地一共大概有500所"},{"start":6401.62,"end":6423.079,"text":"三百六十五所的中文學校是零到十二那僑委會也分別為他們安排了師資還有各個你們應該現在除了一個限制對象為成年人之外是不是研究一下把年紀下降作為學習的對象的在零到十二的階段目前都有中文學校了"},{"start":6423.419,"end":6423.759,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":6456.142,"end":6463.067,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請國安局副局長還有外交部次長委員好我想先請國安局剛剛委員有詢問到就目前在520之前在中共整個"},{"start":6483.168,"end":6501.516,"text":"他的解放軍事實上剛剛的回答是沒有太大的動作或有什麼明顯的異樣是不是就跟委員報告當然中共對我們清早常態性的清早有越來不斷的在變化但是就"},{"start":6503.278,"end":6528.143,"text":"軍事的比較異常特別的部署是沒有沒有看得出來那請外交部請教市長太平島誰的中華民國的主權無用質疑無用質疑嗎那我們中華民國的立法委員要去看自己的國土要誰同意嗎"},{"start":6530.271,"end":6538.029,"text":"這是我們立法委員本於職責來關懷我們自己國家的重大議題這個是我們尊重委員的您的這個判斷"},{"start":6538.766,"end":6566.497,"text":"目前在太平島上有100噸級巡防堤壁台的強化工程然後還有4000噸級巡防建港航道加深工程馬頭附屬設施的強化工程還有油庫岸水電設施等等其實這一共花了我們17億的國家的預算這些新建工程已經完工對不對所以如果去"},{"start":6567.137,"end":6567.938,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6588.114,"end":6593.735,"text":"所以我不曉得今天我們不是菲律賓的國會議員要去看自己的國家的領土跟麻煩製造者有什麼關係到底在怕什麼或者要配合誰或者要聽誰的話"},{"start":6617.6,"end":6638.92,"text":"今天中非他們的衝突不是現在才發生它隨時都在發生那到底什麼時候可以去這有什麼好質疑的我覺得很奇怪而且還把這個放大去檢視只要監督民進黨政府就叫抱習近平的大腿要宣示中華民國的主權叫麻煩製造者這不是非常可笑嗎"},{"start":6640.475,"end":6647.638,"text":"蔡英文總統為什麼要去慰勞官兵?為什麼有時候我們的工程好了以後大家要爭相去撿柴?為什麼太平島中華民國的領土沒有人敢去?我們去了會是麻煩製造者,這不是笑話嗎?"},{"start":6660.914,"end":6677.505,"text":"接下來我想請教外交部次長請回我想請教國安局的副局長我們在媒體的報導上面上週大陸國家安全部公布了一個消息它經由群眾陸續舉報"},{"start":6680.182,"end":6709.007,"text":"在大陸的海域發現很多種類型的海洋間諜這是在過去可能比較少有這樣子的一個資訊以前如果要偵測水文或什麼其實大概都是用一些水面艦艇或者偷偷的埋在海底下可是最近常常看到尤其在最近的這個報導裡面大陸的國安部說明這些特殊技術它是裝置隱藏在大海中"},{"start":6709.747,"end":6734.728,"text":"他時刻都可以窺探海洋的資訊、數據威脅國安那大陸現在他們在這些專題裡面他公布了有些漁民在捕獲海上的竊密裝置的時候有了一些典型的案例那他們認為這個海洋間諜有一個共同的目的當然就是要從事於境外間諜情報機關的非法活動"},{"start":6738.371,"end":6748.143,"text":"他的類型大概分為三種,第一個是暗造型,就是長期可以潛伏在海底,可以隱蔽的採集周圍海洋水文資訊"},{"start":6749.895,"end":6773.847,"text":"還有各種各類船艦艦船活動的數據．可以預置在可能發生作戰的區域．第二個就是密探型．可以隨波漂流浮沉．偵測掌握海域的即時情況．然後第三種是水下燈塔型．這個是為了要侵入中國海域航行的他國潛艦指示方向"},{"start":6774.967,"end":6800.515,"text":"所以他們這三種的這些海洋間諜現在可以看得到那中共國安部他擔憂的這個海洋間諜目前我國是不是也會遭受到海洋間諜的入侵因為我們的海域其實很近那就我們周邊其實我們也是海島型的國家面臨遼闊的海洋還有我們的海岸線也非常長那像目前中共解放軍機還有艦艇不斷的侵擾台灣"},{"start":6803.496,"end":6805.418,"text":"謝謝委員的指教中共國安部事實上在最近這幾個月不斷地在做一些強化反間諜的"},{"start":6826.316,"end":6851.344,"text":"各種案例的一種宣傳那事實上剛剛委員提醒的就是在我們周邊海域事實上本局也報告過這幾年來中共的科研船海釣船停留在台灣周邊海域的時間越來越長而且坦白跟各位報告事實上我們的漁民過去這幾年也曾經撈到一些"},{"start":6858.965,"end":6876.537,"text":"副議長,我現在說的是,因為這個不見得只有中共而已喔,因為中共找到的是他國對他們做的,而我們現在,所以你認為說我們也遭受到中共這樣子的一些海洋間諜的這樣的一個作為,那我們到底"},{"start":6877.839,"end":6899.659,"text":"這些裝備因為通過我們的海域進行相關我們海洋資訊數據的收集我相信也在進行當中,您的說法是這樣嗎?的確的確,因為中共對台灣周邊的這個水文環境的調查越來越密集,所以這種對它不管是"},{"start":6900.76,"end":6916.68,"text":"他表面上是科研但是事實上在戰時也可以當作一個戰場經營管理的數據資料庫那因為既然我們有掌握然後我們也知道我在這裡要請教國安局面臨海洋間諜這樣可能的威脅我們對於臺灣相關的"},{"start":6920.084,"end":6945.661,"text":"請言單位我們應該可以採取什麼樣的相關措施這是第一個第二個我們要怎麼樣完善的防護我們台灣周遭海域水下知情的防護而不至於遭受外國不止一個我們現在有很多的國家包括剛剛說的還有菲律賓或者是其他的國家對我們如果有威脅的話不至於遭受外國無端收集完備國安防護這兩方面我們國安局有什麼樣的建議跟做法"},{"start":6950.544,"end":6976.317,"text":"根委員報告就是我們隨時在掌握這方面的情資對於中共的科研船、調查船在周邊海域的這種立場另外根委員報告就是我們的海巡跟海軍尤其是海巡對於這個不明的一些水下的潛航器或是這個浮標這些也不斷的跟我們的相關的漁民也都有一些聯繫通報的一個機制"},{"start":6977.938,"end":7005.047,"text":"我們有捕獲過嗎?有撿到過嗎?有,跟委員報告有好幾次就是漁民提供給海巡署的那些都是寫那裡面有什麼資料?不是,它上面標示會有電話,你撿到的話請打這支電話必有重賞,類似這樣的就是我們的漁民曾經撈過交給海巡署的阿然後勒?"},{"start":7006.857,"end":7011.927,"text":"然後海巡當然會這個是不是軍事上的一些打電話"},{"start":7013.254,"end":7015.855,"text":"國安局是掌握我們整體國家安全不管你在情研各方面的收整其實都是非常重要的那既然現在他們覺得這是一個很大的威脅尤其我們現在不管我們在發展水面艦艇或潛艦等等其實周邊我們海域的這些相關的資訊是非常重要的現在海軍"},{"start":7041.204,"end":7045.928,"text":"是全世界大家都認為它的推動或者它的發展或者它的優異度其實是對整體作戰還有區域安全是有非常重要的一個影響那如果發生這樣的狀況我們只是請漁民打電話打電話然後我們聽不出來說後面怎麼樣我剛剛的兩個問題我再重複一次我們希望國安局就這個部分可以有一個更完整的一個回答跟它的處置作為"},{"start":7069.705,"end":7075.468,"text":"再交給我們委員會好不好第一個就是在面對這個海洋間諜可能的威脅以後對我們下轄臺灣相關的情言單位可以採取什麼樣相關的措施來因應這是第一點第二個怎麼樣才能完善的防護臺灣周遭海域水下資情的這個安全不致遭受無端的收集或者"},{"start":7097.419,"end":7099.18,"text":"委員會提供書面,但是我剛剛提到的他電話不是我們請漁民打電話,是因為他那個錢那個服務標有"},{"start":7120.868,"end":7121.949,"text":"謝謝馬委員的諮詢下面請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":7161.824,"end":7163.486,"text":"謝謝主席。有請僑委會副委員長。"},{"start":7173.203,"end":7192.173,"text":"委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對"},{"start":7193.595,"end":7209.037,"text":"這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的"},{"start":7211.319,"end":7226.528,"text":"這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的中國這個法律戰越來越擴張最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些"},{"start":7227.428,"end":7247.165,"text":"還有公安部的線路也有解放軍的線路也有傳統統戰的線路也有中宣部的線路所以他們有越來越多線可以對我們的海外同胞來做打壓在這邊想要問一下副委員長有沒有看到新的ABC紀錄片叫做Four Corners"},{"start":7249.39,"end":7273.766,"text":"這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的"},{"start":7274.546,"end":7290.047,"text":"逃離中國之後被秘密警察找上門給他兩個選項你要麼坐牢你要麼就臥底所以他後來就為中國公安部服務他是一個非常典型公安部的線路他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多按照這個紀錄片他這一個"},{"start":7292.189,"end":7312.123,"text":"他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象"},{"start":7316.766,"end":7340.533,"text":"這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平那其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式"},{"start":7349.501,"end":7359.672,"text":"國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的"},{"start":7360.072,"end":7387.71,"text":"他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做是手法比較不同那我這邊想要就是這個副委員長可能他已經就是你可能對這個已經有一些一定的掌握但我們還是做了一個簡單的整理就是他們從上級一直到這個特工然後接觸的手法目前有跟監有攻擊那非常重要的是引誘到東南亞"},{"start":7388.63,"end":7417.276,"text":"最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論那引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長 不知道就是說這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他"},{"start":7417.756,"end":7418.356,"text":"我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊"},{"start":7443.132,"end":7456.687,"text":"通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對"},{"start":7458.349,"end":7485.759,"text":"一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達"},{"start":7487.039,"end":7509.717,"text":"這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做相類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多"},{"start":7510.978,"end":7539.639,"text":"這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難"},{"start":7540.379,"end":7567.41,"text":"因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了"},{"start":7567.91,"end":7587.731,"text":"也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那我們立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話"},{"start":7589.293,"end":7604.95,"text":"問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答"},{"start":7605.51,"end":7633.635,"text":"他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生"},{"start":7634.855,"end":7634.995,"text":"副委員長"},{"start":7663.644,"end":7663.824,"text":"陳慧琼議員"},{"start":7692.304,"end":7718.363,"text":"委員長早安跟外交部好了外交部次長謝謝次長副委員長我剛剛看到你們報告的第12頁裡面有講到出發代表處、國安人員去查查說我們的聽聞綜藝學校等兩所臺灣的華語文學習中心旁邊有中方的海外進場服務站"},{"start":7721.805,"end":7735.449,"text":"我們現在知道這件事情就是離我們這個住處的學校很近那對我的僑務工作有可能推展會有影響那我們的做法是什麼 怎麼反制"},{"start":7736.569,"end":7757.756,"text":"跟委員報告有關於說在法國我們所成立的叫台灣華語文學習中心是因為說他的臉書還有他的校長號的手機被駭客侵入而且做了一些當然是有關於中共宣傳的被置換的網面等等因此我們才通報給法國的警方由警政單位他們來調查"},{"start":7759.156,"end":7787.192,"text":"那當地他們的確也在這個附近有設置了兩個警察服務站他們所謂的外事警察服務中心那這個部分是當地的僑界人士當然我們也會高度的來注意說他們他們的任務其實是他主要應該講他在監視這些所謂的外逃的人是他們的公安的作為所以剛剛我們陳市長特別提到他們的常備理論他想要藉由這樣的方式然後要"},{"start":7787.952,"end":7790.694,"text":"市長,我們想請教一下,那我們駐法代表處有通報這個法國的國安或者是警方單位說有這樣的情勢嗎?"},{"start":7806.416,"end":7833.506,"text":"其實從通案來講對於中國的長臂管轄他所做的這些侵害其他國家主權迫害人民自由的一項都是我們外管委員會注意受到的情資有傳遞給我們的當地的這個不管是國安或者是警方來表達我們對這些相關的管道都是非常暢通的互相聯繫這個都是有的機制有把這樣的相關訊息給他們那會有什麼因應的作為嗎"},{"start":7835.198,"end":7859.768,"text":"我們想強調的一點就是剛剛其實委員關切的這個重點其實中國的統戰現在真的是水淹瀉地的這個無所不在包羅萬象所以它不是傳統的所謂公眾外銷或者只是國際宣傳它還包括剛剛我們國安局副長也特別提到很多特務還有情報收集還有很多這種所謂迫害人群這種行動而且無所不在"},{"start":7860.128,"end":7875.296,"text":"所以的確對我們很多的外交工作、僑務工作、很多國安工作都造成挑戰當然我們如果有很多的理念相近夥伴的國家重視自由法治、民主、人權的當然一定也會是跟我們站在同一邊能夠共同來反制中共這樣的行為"},{"start":7876.434,"end":7889.983,"text":"在我們的這個設置的兩個中文學校的附近有沒有所謂的海外的秘密警察正在直接甚至是間接的傷害到有我的人身安全"},{"start":7892.529,"end":7913.986,"text":"是,跟委員報告,我們是注意到當地有兩個這樣的叫警察服務站,但是他們如果說他們在當地有對於說...報告長我再重新講一次,就是說只是監控嗎?還是有直接可能影響到他的人身安全?目前還沒有接到僑胞有對人身安全方面有提出來這樣子的一個報告"},{"start":7915.069,"end":7935.055,"text":"因為我們不希望說有一些不僅是我國的僑報那可能是不管是支持藏獨還是疆獨等等有些時候在那個地方附近來去做交流的時候那我們擔心中方的一些秘密警察甚至會採取更激進的做法"},{"start":7935.675,"end":7959.672,"text":"所以我一直在強調說有沒有把相關的情資我們自己的國安局調查人員查查的這些情資做了有效率的分享我們在那邊沒有執法權嘛但是法國有有沒有把這些訊息來去跟他們分享我一直講這是很重要的不是管道暢通暢通如果不溝通的話那暢通有什麼意義就是這些東西我們都要做好預備跟準備那這個"},{"start":7961.013,"end":7980.459,"text":"北朝鮮他們對於綁架這些東西都已經有潛力了那中國的這些秘密警察有些你看到你可能知道有海外警察服務在有些根本就你還沒有知道的你沒有被察覺到的那直接進行這種綁架的動作都有可能過去也有一些潛力至少朝鮮都有"},{"start":7981.139,"end":7983.62,"text":"接下來想要請教一下國安局"},{"start":8012.051,"end":8020.886,"text":"謝謝 國安局委員好副局長好副局長我想最近中資的企業"},{"start":8022.775,"end":8050.601,"text":"悄悄接近美國的核武基地這個相關的訊息你們應該有了解嘛那其實這個已經不是在美國而已在日本也有我記得幾年前有一個農林水產省的相關的官員就跟我們講在北海道等地或者是在其他的日本甚至他們的本島有很多中方在購買大量的土地、房地產特別離他們自衛隊越接近的地方購置的狀況越多"},{"start":8052.461,"end":8066.357,"text":"其實也不僅僅是這樣而已,包含在解放軍在產監的獨家有說,中資是積極採購駐日美軍基地附近的土地。我想這些訊息,副局長都有"},{"start":8067.378,"end":8067.498,"text":"副局長"},{"start":8093.942,"end":8107.237,"text":"日本政府徹查已經掌握超過700件類似的土地案件也就是說他們徹查編碼知道說哪個地方哪一個地點哪一些人去構置這些土地影響到國家安全台灣有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":8108.598,"end":8123.068,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於大陸人士在台灣購買土地我們也有很嚴格的限制不管是他的身份他的使用以及在範圍我們也是有這樣的機制"},{"start":8139.599,"end":8144.865,"text":"我們有專案在關注的確有一些大陸人士他用第三國籍的身份來不管來台用商務的行為或是各方面的這個我們有在關注"},{"start":8161.622,"end":8175.211,"text":"我希望是我們也不只針對一個國家境外勢力那透過國內或者是第三國或者是在地協力者等等的所以說以各個敏感的機敏的基地或者是政府機關為中心"},{"start":8176.812,"end":8198.513,"text":"大概是幾公里,平方公里之內,我們就必須要有類似的這些做法,那就是對視,那才能夠去追隱到人的部分,所以我們不,因為如果你一個一個人去找的話,你是找不到的,但是針對土地在離重要的基民的基地或者是堡壘或者是我國的重要的國家安全機關軍事安全機關"},{"start":8199.534,"end":8199.834,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8218.786,"end":8240.866,"text":"在之前就先把相關的SOP做好才能夠面對這樣未來的挑戰好不好副局長好謝謝更為包括國防部對於要塞堡壘或軍事管制地區一定的範圍他們也有一些劃設一些管制然後他們也會做一些公告對會管制公告好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":8248.01,"end":8256.493,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員﹖鍾嘉斌﹖鍾嘉斌委員不在﹖請陳婷菲﹖陳婷菲﹖陳婷菲委員不在﹖請徐巧欣委員上臺質詢謝謝主席﹖我想要請外交部的常務次長陳次長請外交部陳常次"},{"start":8278.82,"end":8292.148,"text":"市長您好,很快就要520了,那大家都很期待說有怎麼樣的一些國際的貴賓會一起來觀禮。那我想要請問一下在歐洲國家當中,官員最高層級會來到520的這個就職典禮是怎麼樣的一個層級?"},{"start":8298.212,"end":8298.432,"text":"國會議員．政要朋友"},{"start":8313.613,"end":8333.08,"text":"邦交的國家是可以說明的嗎?還是他不方便在這裡說明?根據我們最新的各個外管報告的資料因為還有很多細節的安排形成的這些安排所以在最後細節都確定之後外交部會事實跟國人說明"},{"start":8333.72,"end":8362.966,"text":"那在美國方面目前共和黨跟民主黨正在舉行2024年的總統而共和黨在做初選那2024年今年也會是他們的這個選舉年看起來很有可能是川普對決拜登那在這個有消息指出川普執政時期的前美國國務卿蓬佩奧5月17號要來到台灣請問外交部有所掌握嗎?這一點我可不可以請貝貝斯市長代為說明"},{"start":8364.884,"end":8390.125,"text":"我們這邊對於外賓的來訪是都有掌握的那昨天蓬佩奧他應該也是在公開活動裡面有提到這一段所以蓬佩奧會來他有對外這樣表示對他有對外這樣表示那我們這裡接獲的訊息呢因為他如果表示了但是我們這裡有沒有接到訊息才是我想要關心的重點我不關心他說了什麼我關心我們接到的情節是什麼"},{"start":8390.265,"end":8391.545,"text":"蓬佩奧一度被認為是2024年共和黨總統候選人的熱門人選當然他上個月已經宣布他不會被參選提名了"},{"start":8411.332,"end":8433.72,"text":"但是川普可能還是要繼續的參選我們除了共和黨之外在民主黨部分像是羅森伯格或者是一些跟我們比較有交情的政治人物也會來會不會擔心說共和黨跟民主黨都來在這個部分台灣會必須面臨到選邊站的難度"},{"start":8436.661,"end":8452.927,"text":"昨天晚上其實美國在台協會也已經有announce就是美國有一個特使團會來台灣那這個特使團他就是一個跨黨派的一個慶賀團來出席我們的總統就職典禮所以是跨黨派的所以剛剛談到的蓬佩奧如果來到台灣的話他是要來參加520賴清德總統準總統的就職典禮嗎?"},{"start":8460.936,"end":8488.872,"text":"在這段時間來到台灣的外賓如果表達說希望能夠參加一些就職的活動的話我們只要能夠accommodate的我們也都很歡迎好的謝謝那另外呢我想要詢問齁那因為最近外交部有對我提告那這個我今天不談個人的個案齁我們談的是通案那因為我們現在的外交部呢跟很多的友邦都有簽這些MOU阿等等相關的這一些文件"},{"start":8489.432,"end":8508.562,"text":"那先前我有向外交部所知外交部提供給我的說法是說我們一向向來都是把這個列為公文書的一般的密件我想要請問以通案來說MOU相關的資訊列為密件這件事情的法源依據是依照哪一條法律"},{"start":8511.106,"end":8531.682,"text":"因為我們目前有12個邦交國但是我們在國外有100多個管處那很多的關係的維持當然並不一定有正式官方外交關係所以因為就是沒有官方關係我們有些時候當然都有設代表處的也有沒設代表處有監俠的所以您剛剛委員提示的重點是說"},{"start":8532.603,"end":8547.719,"text":"我們如果跟他有簽任何的MOU說雙方合作的某些項目要怎麼用什麼法律的形式或是文件的形式安排都要看個案對方跟我們交往的程度跟對方的法律情況那是你們去簽MOU的時候的情況我的意思是說你們簽完一些MOU可能會送到立法院來做備查"},{"start":8555.046,"end":8558.829,"text":"請問在這部分的法源依據是依照哪一條?哪一個法律的哪一條?通案上回答就可以了"},{"start":8572.028,"end":8601.227,"text":"如果通案而言因為涉及國家利益、外交利益或者說有機密程度那麼就比如說我們以國家機密保護法或者說條約締結法相關的任何法令其實一般的我們不談國家機密保護法因為我們剛剛談的是文書處理文件的一般密等國家機密保護法它有另外一個要需要核定的部分我剛剛問的問題是關於密等文件的一般文書處理的密等"},{"start":8601.687,"end":8604.081,"text":"那這個部分的法源依據是什麼?"},{"start":8605.12,"end":8629.256,"text":"其實應該是說行政院所訂立的文書處理手冊那就是一般公務機密的主要的這種所謂法令規定來源但是國家機密法是另外一套對對是另外一套那因為在文書處理手冊裡面它裡面還有另外提到說有法源依據的部分那我想請問我們現在目前的是依照哪一條法源依據是外交締約法嗎應該說條約締結法條約締結法的第幾條"},{"start":8635.6,"end":8638.082,"text":"我要問的是第幾條啦,因為那個也沒幾條啊"},{"start":8648.784,"end":8667.459,"text":"沒有問題,任何人都可以來回答這個問題謝委員,我在這邊再強調一下,其實這個密建的核定,外交部跟其他機關其實沒有什麼特別的不一樣,都是依據相關的法律"},{"start":8668.26,"end":8686.538,"text":"什麼法律?相關的法律,我舉個例子好了。相關的法律是什麼法律?它的法律名稱是?我現在不做個案的。不做個案,通案,因為通案它還是有一個法律嘛。我例如說,人事案件,或者是一些採購的案件。我們剛剛談的是MOU的簽署的部分的案件。對,那其實我也很清楚,因為這個案子進入了"},{"start":8687.199,"end":8711.804,"text":"我不談個案我談通案檢察官已經在分案了我談通案嘛因為你們不只簽一個MOU委員其實也是法律專家這個案子是什麼樣的性質就會用什麼樣的法律對所以我要問的是在簽MOU之後送到我們的立法院做備查的時候我們使用的是哪一條的法律依據我們是依據條約決定處理法條約決定處理法的第幾條"},{"start":8716.465,"end":8736.252,"text":"我這邊因為檢察官也會詢問相關的問題不需要問檢察官啊因為你們就應該要知道這個檢察官沒有問題因為我談的不是我個人的案子檢察官也在詢問這個事情我問的是其他的MOU你們視為密等的文件裡面你們使用的是條約締解法裡面的第幾個法條"},{"start":8740.06,"end":8763.365,"text":"其實在第9條跟第12條第9條跟第12條是嗎對,我們都有權限去處理的好,第19條跟第12條你們要確定這件事情喔好,第19條、第12條今天是我們在國會裡面大家都有聽到而且呢是公然的就是變成是說它可以說是一個很重要的一個陳述第9條跟第12條我知道了,謝謝"},{"start":8769.353,"end":8780.683,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來請游浩委員﹚游浩,游浩委員不在﹚請林益君委員﹚林益君,林益君委員不在﹚請洪森翰委員上台質詢"},{"start":8795.957,"end":8822.826,"text":"請僑務委員會理副委員長請僑務委員會副委員長副委員長早安副委員長早我想大家先分享一個數據這是中國從1980年開始以來其實中國移民海外的人數大家可以看到其實是急劇的在攀升那如果看"},{"start":8824.106,"end":8838.712,"text":"兩千年的話它的數字是343萬那一直到2020年的話是775萬那相對的其實台灣移民海外的人數這幾年其實是遞減的趨勢我想這個委員長其實應該非常非常清楚"},{"start":8839.827,"end":8859.455,"text":"我想問一個問題是說在兩岸移民海外的人數在有這樣子劇烈的變動之下我們可以想像在海外的這些僑團或僑社它的結構上面其實也會產生一定的影響尤其有一些我們的僑民的認定可能會跟中國那邊其實有時候會有一些重複"},{"start":8860.953,"end":8877.706,"text":"那這些影響在我們的僑團僑社的組成跟結構上面的變化我想僑委會我們現在有準備好因應的做法嗎?謝謝委員您的關心那中國在海外的移民的確是大量的增加"},{"start":8878.366,"end":8902.252,"text":"那這個增加呢,一定會產生,我們如果從歷史的趨勢來看,在1975年代就會產生一波的,包括從中南半島移到全世界各地,也造成橋設結構的改變,就是所謂的越減了的橋包。之後在1997年也有一批。當然在更早之前,就是大概1980年代。會長,我現在要問的是說我們有沒有因應的做法,不是?好的。"},{"start":8903.012,"end":8922.244,"text":"所以我在講說的確有這樣的變化這個變化在兩個地方可以看出來那我們的因應做法是什麼我們的因應做法容許我把前面這兩句話跟你們報告之後第一就是說會產生量變質變第二是這些來的社團他有認同的問題"},{"start":8923.365,"end":8946.9,"text":"中國移出來的僑民基本上他的認同因為他從小就是在共產制度長大了所以我們對於這個部分他的認同我們應該要順其自然那我們的因應作為就是說我在今天的書面報告裡頭也有向我們大院提出來就是第一我們要去弘揚自由民主的普世價值要做出區隔就是說我們跟中國是不一樣的"},{"start":8947.56,"end":8973.236,"text":"不一樣的地方在於說我們是非常非常的注重而且我們以自由民主的核心價值作為我們的重要的一個追求的目標那在這裡呢就可以看得出來說會去影響僑界會去用自由民主理念來結合僑界第二個做法就是說我們應該要建立多元的平台然後能夠深化僑界與我的互動聯繫這是我們的第二個我這邊想請問因為這段時間有很多國際的人權組織"},{"start":8976.238,"end":8989.853,"text":"他們其實提出一個非常非常重要而嚴肅的議題叫做中國的跨境鎮壓的議題我不知道副院長有沒有聽過是 我曉得這一個跨境鎮壓的議題這段時間其實很多國際人員組織其實也發布了很多的報告"},{"start":8993.082,"end":9002.352,"text":"根據西班牙人權組織談及中國海外秘密警察的非法境外鎮壓目前中國在全球53個國家中設立了102個警橋事務服務站大部分在歐洲地區"},{"start":9012.421,"end":9031.588,"text":"一開始他們可能打著說我是讓他們就近換發證件啊辦理出入境服務啊所以甚至他說這是我們海外的110啦海外的警察局副院長你認為這些這個警橋服務站尤其中國在海外特定設警橋服務站目前對我們的僑務工作有沒有影響"},{"start":9033.429,"end":9054.808,"text":"在這個階段看起來他是以中國大陸的移民為主是以中國移民為主的時候呢當然對我們來講一定會產生一種外溢的一個效果是那他當然他說在所謂的天網獵狐等等各種行動代號他說所謂的追追這些反貪腐潛逃國外其實這些是他們"},{"start":9055.549,"end":9072.449,"text":"委員長你也說了他會有外溢的影響所以看起來是會有影響會有影響那我們對這個影響我們的態度跟做法是什麼是我們在這方面這個因應之下呢當然我們一方面我們也希望在當地國"},{"start":9073.57,"end":9098.496,"text":"這是屬於當地國主權的行為希望能夠有相關的資訊一定要跟當地國的有關單位要去分享比如說美國在聯邦調查局就正式去逮捕了這個所謂警察秘密服務站那我們做了什麼嗎?他們的這些做法這樣子他是影響了確實那個當地國的主權可是他也影響到我們的僑民啊"},{"start":9099.836,"end":9125.658,"text":"他要控制中國的僑民可是剛才也說了中國的僑民也會影響到我們的僑民這是我第一個問題嘛是那這個做法你剛才也說他會有外溢的影響嘛會有外溢的影響那我們的因應是什麼我們的做法是什麼嘛第一個我們當然是要有幾個策略我跟中國跟委員報告我剛剛特別提到說我們要去弘揚自由民主的價值來跟我們僑界結合這不是弘揚自由民主價值可以處理的事情啊"},{"start":9127.574,"end":9156.1,"text":"我們有沒有僑民有受到這種海外的秘密警察或者是他們這個警僑服務站的影響甚至監控有沒有我從媒體上的報導看出來他並不是公開的活動他會用恐嚇的方式那對啊那我們的僑民被恐嚇那我們做了什麼嘛比如說他就說我不發簽證給你或是他在做你的親人證我知道你不是我都知道這些現象"},{"start":9157.216,"end":9173.814,"text":"但我問你僑委會做了什麼嗎對我就說跟委員報告我們這個方面呢第一個我們當然是就如同說我不是要請你來這邊做學術發表啊我是要問你這些是你的業務範圍那你們做了什麼因應"},{"start":9175.051,"end":9202.527,"text":"我們有促請海外要提高警覺這是第一個然後要藉由這個還有沒有別的像比如說法國巴黎發生了這個事情那我們網站被駭了或是校長手機被不明的人士所入侵了我們就通報當地的治安機關這在外國是主權行為不是我們第三國可以這樣講這樣我會覺得好像沒有作為"},{"start":9204.028,"end":9214.637,"text":"不報警不然要怎樣?難道不報警嗎?當然報警,這不是只是最基本的嗎?如果只報警,那我聽不出來給了什麼協助啊?"},{"start":9218.393,"end":9242.954,"text":"我剛花了這麼多時間我真的沒有聽到僑民會針對這樣子全球正在關注的現象給了什麼協助啊我們有沒有給這些可能受到恐嚇或受到監控或者是受到騷擾的僑民可以有明確的讓他知道我們可以提供你什麼法律服務我們有沒有跟當地的政府建立一個訊息互通資訊共享的管道大家互相提醒有沒有把這機制建立起來"},{"start":9244.807,"end":9261.838,"text":"我現在問你是我們提供了什麼協助嗎?針對這個現象當大家都在關注這個議題的時候甚至我還沒有講他是警察服務站更多時候是秘密警察甚至是間諜"},{"start":9263.749,"end":9292.568,"text":"那我們做了什麼嘛我們明明知道中國的僑民也會影響到我們的僑民影響會外溢的你剛才也說了可是為什麼我聽不到具體應對的做法具體應對做法第一我們就是會事實宣揚自由民主的理念宣揚自由民主的理念對處理這個事情有什麼幫助我真的有點聽不到這當然宣揚自由民主的理念是必要的這也是我們核心價值所在但我不覺得做這件事情就可以處理"},{"start":9294.151,"end":9313.506,"text":"現在我們在外面可能會遇到威脅跟影響啊我跟委員報告齁其實我們剛剛報告裡有提到我們的第二個策略是說要連結主流社會啦包含說在媒體方面連結哪一個主流社會是當地的主流社會還是台灣的主流社會那你用什麼方法去連結"},{"start":9314.947,"end":9336.879,"text":"當地的主流社會那你怎麼連結當地主流社會指的是說當地人士而不是說僑民社會那你怎麼連結嘛我現在問你怎麼連結嘛如果連結主流社會有很多的管道很多的僑民他本身就是在主流社會裡面所以我們通過相當的通路藉由這些通路跟他們做連結譬如說民意機關"},{"start":9339.52,"end":9356.508,"text":"我這邊 我大概聽了講我很仔細的聽你們應對的方法跟內容了但坦白說我沒有聽到具體的做法啦我自己是認為你們要不要在喬爾會就正式的起一個專案來去面對接下來中國在境外鎮壓或海外鎮壓"},{"start":9357.389,"end":9377.851,"text":"相對於不管是他現在有什麼現象也包括我們該提供給我們僑民什麼樣的協助我們要跟當地的政府建立起什麼樣子互助的機制全部都列得清清楚楚讓我們的僑民如果在海外遇到這個狀況的話他至少知道我們的僑委會我們的政府怎麼協助他這應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":9379.472,"end":9400.907,"text":"好的 我們待會來做記錄不能再只用這樣你剛才只講這個內容坦白說我覺得太空泛了啦好 謝謝時間的關係好不好 這可以嗎是的多久時間可以把這個機制可以把這個機制給建立起來兩個月可不可以我想兩個月三個月好不好三個月是不是我讓給你三個月三個月請提供報告到外交國防委員會是 好 謝謝好"},{"start":9407.682,"end":9410.484,"text":"接下來請陳培宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席那有請今天是等一下次長 謝謝哪一個單位陳國常務次長 謝謝外交部 謝謝"},{"start":9437.573,"end":9462.262,"text":"市長你好我時間有限我就直接跟您切入我想說關於這個中國統戰的事情我就不再多說不過以我自己的專業領域來自教育界然後來自語文教育其實我們發現孔子學院這件事情我相信市長你一定非常清楚那孔子學院長年的滲透這件事情到了近年其實很多國家開始有警覺有意識孔子學院他不只擔負語言交流他其實擔負了大量的政治責任對嗎是的好"},{"start":9463.843,"end":9488.318,"text":"那回頭來看我們來看一下在這個日經亞洲的報導提到孔子學院逐漸被西方封鎖可是在東南亞持續發展不知道你們這邊有沒有關注到這個相關訊息一直持續都在關注好那你們觀察到你們有什麼相關給國人的建議或參考嗎在這個孔子學院為什麼他跑到東南亞大量的發展而他對東南亞當地甚至對我們當地台商有沒有造成什麼相關的影響"},{"start":9489.523,"end":9510.616,"text":"跟委員報告的確像過去這段時間您所也瞭解到的在美國也好歐洲也好對於因為孔子學院他的本質他背後的目的有比較深刻的理解不管透過法律手段或其他方法來反制孔子學院來散播或傳播對於中方有利的這些他們的統戰作為"},{"start":9512.657,"end":9535.75,"text":"那所以您剛剛所提到那為什麼會在東南亞看到有這種春風吹又生的情況那的確也是因為第一點比如說因為中國持續在這個地方當然有很多的包括經貿一帶一路很多的努力希望拉攏這些國家能夠站到他那一邊去那麼當然美方也有他的作為所以兩者之間的戰略競爭持續在全世界各地都持續進行"},{"start":9536.77,"end":9560.1,"text":"那您剛剛所提到的這種後續的影響部分的確因為只要有一個地方被遏止了其實他有很多手段他可以改變名稱他可以換湯不換藥再重新用別的名義去來成立去運作所以的確就是有一種就是說打壓不盡他用各種方式加上他的資源不斷因為中國的這個統戰部他的資源一年超過3千億台幣比他們的外交部的資源還要多人手還要更足"},{"start":9566.463,"end":9581.571,"text":"所以回過來看,如果台灣持續在推這個新南向政策你怎麼看我們當地的台下或是當地的學生甚至是其他各式各樣非正式的交流我們怎麼來看這個情況怎麼說我想要再跟次長您分享我們看到還有另外一個日經的報導他提到說"},{"start":9583.152,"end":9610.401,"text":"光是蘋果的一台iPhone其中台廠供應的零組件占iPhone材料總成本36%而且這36%的零件都是所謂最有價值的零件包含高階的核心處理器5G的數據機可是如果相關回頭來看那中國提供的技術跟中國提供的零件相對是低階的所以他最後這邊報導其實就是我要跟次長您說的他說儘管跟中國的經濟脫鉤不是容易的事情可是跟台灣脫鉤更是難上加難"},{"start":9612.622,"end":9638.649,"text":"意思就是不可以跟台灣脫鉤一旦跟台灣脫鉤光是iPhone它就會受到多麼大的影響你剛剛說它在西方的勢力逐漸消退但是它在新的地方開始春風吹又生那我要問我們從過去文化的交流或是教育的交流確實其實台灣是有一些可以做的事情除了我剛剛說在經濟上我們看到所謂這個零件所謂工業所謂其他的產業可是以我自己最熟悉的教育文化產業其實台灣有很"},{"start":9640.93,"end":9643.272,"text":"我舉一個例子AIT他們在宜蘭捐贈了一個美國資料專區的圖書區這個圖書呢當然放的不是大家不喜歡看那些公務資料公文資料也不是所謂政府出版品"},{"start":9668.314,"end":9685.228,"text":"他就是一批好看的美國圖畫書或者是童書或者是成人書小說各式各樣的作品都有甚至因爲這個專區設計了很多活動其實很多旅外的華人也告訴我們臺灣有很棒的作家很棒的內容產業但是你們有沒有角色有沒有機會透過你們的設計或是政策推廣到東南亞去我們不直接跟孔子學院對戰因爲你剛說他們有龐大的預算是落在這個地方"},{"start":9694.116,"end":9694.216,"text":"請回應一下,謝謝。"},{"start":9711.784,"end":9734.231,"text":"是,謝謝委員您剛剛的提問,我們非常贊同,尤其委員剛剛所提到的不同的角度跟層面來讓我們在尤其東南亞這個第一線的外交工作有包含文化跟外交跟軟實際這個層面,其實這些工作外交部以及連同我們其他包括主管的相關的文化部會、僑委會還有任何可以出力的部會都對這個問題非常重視,而且"},{"start":9736.192,"end":9748.364,"text":"新南向因為我們時間有限我等一下趕快下台但是我要拜託您我們辦公室之後會跟你們持續討論如何把好看的而且有意義的值得往外推廣跟教育部跟文化部還有你們相關部會、跨部會"},{"start":9751.287,"end":9751.387,"text":"接下來請"},{"start":9775.396,"end":9784.219,"text":"蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在請楊瓊瑛委員上臺質詢謝謝美麗的主席本席想邀請僑委會副委員長請副委員長"},{"start":9804.295,"end":9818.32,"text":"副委員長,本席聽到你們的委員長在節目當中接受訪問,他有特別提到他說中共強化海外統戰手段"},{"start":9819.46,"end":9844.811,"text":"而且他也說中國隨著這20年來呢成為經濟發展中的受益者那海外的僑民也越來越多那麼同時也運用了僑民的組織做海外的統戰而且他也認知到說力道越來越強那在這樣的情況之下我們呢我們做怎麼樣的一個加強跟應對呢請做說明"},{"start":9846.218,"end":9866.453,"text":"是,有關於中共在海外這邊所報導的強化海外的統戰那我們當然在這一方面我們除了說我們的華語文的教學之外因為華語文的教育是我們海外僑社的一個根本從華語文教育才發展出來有僑團有這些僑社是,這方面我們要去加強"},{"start":9870.456,"end":9882.189,"text":"委員長已經認知到這個事情有壓力了那我們是不是有收到我們的僑團有沒有收到任何的這個訊息有參透的這個資訊呢有沒有你說僑界他們的腎痛就是說他們的"},{"start":9888.763,"end":9891.225,"text":"我們的僑團有沒有接受到任何訊息,有參透的訊息,那我們要怎麼樣去加強?"},{"start":9913.158,"end":9941.321,"text":"在僑社的滲透、分化方面我們時常都是密注,非常的會觀察、會注意那我們的積極作為包含說那最近有沒有特別的情勢發生?有啊,他就是特別的訊息他就是藉由我剛剛提到的叫做量變到質變來第一他來干涉社團的選舉,企圖在裡面產生因為民主機制,然後他會用選舉的方式產生比較支持他的這一邊的人士,然後"},{"start":9942.642,"end":9963.36,"text":"變、變、變、直、變。在這樣的情況之下,人家想盡一切辦法,我方怎麼應對?是,那當然我們第一個,我們都會請海外有資訊的時候,請海外的駐外的僑務人員必須要提高警覺。第二個,我們一定要去宣揚自由民主的機制,因為自由民主就是能夠對抗他們的最好的一個利器。"},{"start":9963.82,"end":9986.1,"text":"嘴巴說有理念是對的但是本身還是要請一定要加強因應讓我們的僑胞對台灣是有信心的他們才能夠更有能力這一點非常重要因為他們的孔子學院也全球在擴張人家有好的我們要怎麼去應對"},{"start":9988.061,"end":10002.346,"text":"這是我方必須要加強的嘛 對不對所以接下來本席要請問因為委員長都感覺到這個壓力所以在這個情況之下那也有人說僑委會的存廢或者是裁併"},{"start":10003.346,"end":10021.331,"text":"有的其他國家也把僑委的這個工作量能是放在外交部那我們現在是並行那要請教當然目前為止我們還是已存在就是我們僑委會獨立機關單位目前還是如此那你的看法呢"},{"start":10022.406,"end":10035.921,"text":"怎麼樣可以加強這個力道呢?照顧我們的僑民呢?是,我們常常在外界在有時候應要去演說的時候我都會跟我們的受眾這樣子說因為僑委會存在到今天"},{"start":10039.545,"end":10068.423,"text":"是因為歷史的因素而且是因為事實的需要而且我們國家處境這樣的困難的情況之下二軌外交或者是說我們整體對外力量的整合是有必要的同時我們應該要第一個我是很感謝感謝我們海外的僑界他們非常支持自由民主的中華民國非常支持我們台灣因此我們這個力量不要忽視了也因為如此所以我們更要精進我們的方案跟行動"},{"start":10069.304,"end":10069.685,"text":"請國安局副局長"},{"start":10085.635,"end":10105.931,"text":"五二零將至大家都很期待大家也關心我們各方有什麼樣的安全性所以網路攻擊你們號稱是中共慣用的手法國安局密切在注意嗎?"},{"start":10106.972,"end":10107.832,"text":"那我們怎麼及時應處呢?"},{"start":10132.418,"end":10160.744,"text":"我們在應處上當然這裡面我們當然就是我們有一個監控的機制而且還有包括國安團隊跟行政部門我們有一些互相通報的因為你告訴我們說必要時也會揭露什麼叫必要時會揭露給民眾安心呢就是因為他有一些有一些比較比如說比較特別的一些手法一些往親的一些手法的時候我們就"},{"start":10163.045,"end":10186.963,"text":"會適時的來做提醒所以這個也要請我們國安局加緊腳步謹慎以待因為民眾聽到說如果有必要時會揭露所以大家相對也越來越緊張人民所需要的是希望安心所以要請國安局來加油所以本席要請教也就是說"},{"start":10188.044,"end":10202.631,"text":"我們國安局一直都說這個大陸的這個一貫一貫策略那這個一貫策略他從一萬多到這個百萬多到兩百萬多是倍增是倍增那未來不知道"},{"start":10203.251,"end":10222.564,"text":"所以我方必須要有因應因為民眾我再次強調要的就是一個安全跟安心我們也希望兩岸可以和平共談和平交流和平對流那這樣子對整個我們國家的一個安全度以及整個國家向世界各國來聯繫的"},{"start":10224.105,"end":10224.726,"text":"國安局的立場?"},{"start":10236.214,"end":10265.534,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們當然要除了剛剛所報告的就是我們隨時在做一些監控必要的時候我們也做揭露為什麼要做揭露也要我們要提醒民眾提醒我們的社會因為有一些被害親事實上是自己在操作的時候也有一些操作上有一些沒有按照一些嚴謹的治安規定也有這方面也都有所以事實的提醒揭露提醒是有必要的"},{"start":10266.555,"end":10266.975,"text":"主席"},{"start":10279.523,"end":10305.839,"text":"接下來請邱志偉委員﹚邱志偉﹚邱志偉委員不在﹚請吳思堯﹚吳思堯﹚吳思堯委員不在﹚請鄭天才﹚鄭天才﹚鄭天才委員不在﹚請蔓玉珍﹚蔓玉珍﹚蔓玉珍委員不在今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員﹚蔓玉珍委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":10308.98,"end":10330.869,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定剛剛本席有請國安局提供的資料大概兩週內提供給本席謝謝那本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家"},{"start":10363.133,"end":10363.934,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15921","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd30a6515091f25b8683679203eefbeec03be8d109af184be4feeb63be46e003295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-16","start_time":"2024-05-16T08:31:32+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:50:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15508,"委員發言時間":"08:31:32 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謝謝主席 那就麻煩我們陳政次陳次長"},{"start":2578.079,"end":2605.34,"text":"市長委員好市長好請教一下就是我們之前在大委會有請教過啦就是我們可能高速公路或這個快速道路的橋梁結構安全的問題嘛那我們因為各個橋梁可能因為在設計的年份不一樣的時候有不一樣設計的一個法規標準嘛對不對所以說目前全台灣的公路系統的耐震強度並沒有一致嘛這應該是沒錯嘛"},{"start":2607.087,"end":2626.858,"text":"是的,我們會都依照新的耐震規範不夠的部分就是後續在市經會來補強那我針對這個部分,我不確定我們現在網路上有每個路段、橋梁的耐震設計強度的公開資料嗎?目前沒有那這部分可以公開讓民眾知道嗎?"},{"start":2635.747,"end":2651.416,"text":"我們可以提供我們哪些橋梁有在做耐震補強的那民眾想知道說我每天行走的可能每個可能通勤長走的路段的橋梁的設計強度可以耐及急震"},{"start":2653.358,"end":2678.957,"text":"這個東西我想有些民眾他可能會知道嘛想知道嘛那這部分我們有沒有辦法做公開的資料我想我請高速公路局局長做聲明一下跟委員報告那基本上來講說所有的一個橋梁的設計他都有當年度的一個設計規範在做那我們在針對就是說因為高速公路或是省道的部分都是有50年40年30年以前蓋的橋對所以不一樣我們都知道"},{"start":2679.958,"end":2701.614,"text":"所以我們針對這些橋梁的部分我們有做一些處理就是說比較舊的橋梁都已經把它提升了新的規範的部分的差異大概是我沒有說你們做得不好我知道你們一直以來都有在做橋梁結構的補強那只是說民眾會想要知道現在就是剛好大地震過後嘛那民眾"},{"start":2702.535,"end":2725.188,"text":"當然會擔心自己平常行走的那個動線的橋梁的結構安全有沒有符合嘛但我知道我們都會定期檢測嘛但是民眾不知道說我們檢測是說我們要符合那幾級證或者說他設計的時候是幾級證可能小鎮我們常講小鎮小鎮不壞嘛中鎮可修嘛大鎮可能會怎麼"},{"start":2725.768,"end":2747.182,"text":"大陣不倒嗎?民眾想要知道這件事情這公開的資訊會有什麼樣的困難?現在都符合這個條件了都符合這個條件嗎?只是說我們有一些在規範的新的一個條件的一個調整比如說我們那個位移啊什麼那些的他有重新再檢核那必須要再做一個調整"},{"start":2747.642,"end":2757.643,"text":"公開我們橋梁耐震急速這件事情對我們來說有這麼的困難嗎?民眾想知道我們可能現在民眾都知道可能會有危災怎麼樣嗎?那"},{"start":2759.659,"end":2781.174,"text":"可能現在比如說我們現在有下載一些APP都會提前地震警報嘛地震來之前我們都會知道嘛如果說地震警報我們可能是急症結果我大概每天上班的時候我知道說如果說我們公開資訊的話可以知道說我這邊可以經歷幾急症大家就安心了嘛對不對大家會安心啊而不是說安全是我們口頭講嘛"},{"start":2782.844,"end":2809.12,"text":"安全是我們口頭講檢測符合標準是我們口頭講我知道你們不會騙人但是到底這個強度多大民眾不知道啊我跟委員報告一下原則上因為剛才講到其實在110年有一個耐震補強的一個新的規範公佈在那裡頭就叫耐七級震所以其實剛才兩位局長的說明都是我們所有的橋梁所以我們全台灣的橋梁應該都符合七級震以下不倒"},{"start":2810.621,"end":2832.837,"text":"在省道跟國道上我們現在是朝這個規範在做所以有關省道或國道全部完成了嗎他們現在正在做耐震補強的工作我的了解有的會在114年有的會在115年完成陸續的完成那相關耐震補強的橋梁省道會補強大概519座那高速公路部分原則上會完成1100多座的一個耐震補強"},{"start":2833.818,"end":2853.979,"text":"耐震補強完成了以後就是符合剛才我跟委員講的他就符合我們的耐震補強的規範那其實所以說我才會說我們可以去公佈我們哪些橋梁正在做耐震補強那補強完了以後當然就要符合114年好所以就是說我們現在次長在這邊跟我承諾就是說我們可以公告一些資料"},{"start":2854.76,"end":2870.576,"text":"只要沒有在補強的名單上面就代表說他現在就符合7級強度不倒的一個規範那這些在補強中的可能會有相關具體的進度那補強完成了之後就可以達成全國一致性高速公路跟省道7級都會達到7級"},{"start":2875.32,"end":2904.46,"text":"那後續我不曉得那個相關的公告的行政作業需要多少時間?如果需要的話我們可以請他們在相關的網站上去公佈省道的耐震補強的橋梁是阿讓民眾能夠走得安心嘛是沒問題沒問題我們把那個正在施工還有設計中的把它公告出來好把它出來那包括相關的騎乘嘛就是多久以前這個能夠完成大家心裡有個底這樣子啦是沒問題那請教一下我們遇到地震阿"},{"start":2905.88,"end":2933.113,"text":"或許是我自己知識不足啦我們有沒有相關的道路規範就是說我們民眾如果知道要發生地震了那我們的駕駛他應該要有一個怎樣的一個駕駛行為因為可能我過去說說到的宣導可能不太夠我們有沒有跟我們的用路人告訴他們說我們譬如現在行駛在高速公路上面100公里嘛那可能遇到了急症還怎麼樣我們要不要反應還是我們就是像一般就繼續開這樣子"},{"start":2934.966,"end":2937.616,"text":"有沒有這些不同強度的地震有不同的一個指引這樣子"},{"start":2940.437,"end":2964.702,"text":"這個基本也跟委員報告原則上應該是遇到強震是應該要停車那我們這次有那個0403那個時間當下7點58分的那個所有的那個吸氣天氣影像我們有收集我們也在觀察說駕駛行為的狀況其實突然停車也是蠻危險的啦會被提出來我們會來觀察看所以我們會有一些指引出來吧因為我們現在來講是說地震當下我們沒辦法立即展示到那個上面的資訊系統啦"},{"start":2965.842,"end":2985.784,"text":"可以啊現在那個我們現在手機都可以下載APP了你們的系統串接應該不是問題啊沒有沒有地震地震那個氣象組給我們要到大概7分鐘以後才收到可是他們不是有地震預警系統國家級警報的部分對啊可能說10秒後會有幾級地震啊這個"},{"start":2988.266,"end":3013.674,"text":"資料的串接應該不會困難啊那個是直接發出那個細胞廣播系統的部分那這個東西既然有這個資訊可以提早10秒給我們高中組也絕對不是問題啊報告委員那個只有兩三秒而已還沒有到10秒有我手機都抽到都提前很早啊好不好因為我們現在有CMS系統嘛如果說我們真的對這個地震有相關的指引出來的時候"},{"start":3015.031,"end":3032.419,"text":"民眾都受到相關的教育程度之後有一個共識那我希望我們高中局之後在也可以跟這個地震預警系統這個串接在相關的CMS上面去做一個提醒因為不是每個人都用手機的預警APP那如果說我們也能夠在相關的"},{"start":3033.82,"end":3034.94,"text":"要先想委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":3068.769,"end":3074.413,"text":"請陳政事請陳次長還有我們陳文睿局長趙新華局長委員好"},{"start":3086.346,"end":3094.558,"text":"陳次,說實在話,工程多少你也是內行本席要特別跟你去談的就是在108年藍蘇澳"},{"start":3099.485,"end":3114.512,"text":"大橋斷橋這個事那我想你那個時候應該是在當局長我是局長所以這個要提醒我們所有公路單位這是一個前車之鑒不能再換"},{"start":3116.573,"end":3139.525,"text":"這個還好幸好那個地方並不是非常人口密集使用高的這個橋梁所以這個前車之鑒我相信你們也會記起這些教訓所以要特別去留意所以本席啊就特別要跟你談的就是因為在我們去年101座"},{"start":3141.906,"end":3166.592,"text":"所有的橋梁也就是你們補助他他們來做這些檢測所以我現在就要請教一下這101座通通都檢測完我看你們報告都通通檢測完可是這個檢測完了那到底的結論結論到底是什麼兩位局長可以說明嗎"},{"start":3167.455,"end":3184.41,"text":"我跟委員報告就是108年10月能報告大橋斷橋後那就是開始全國就是說做橋梁的一個體檢那體檢之後的話有101座要做這個補強所以行政院的話其實是編列三年的預算從109、110、111三年的話其實把這101座現在都已經這個整個補強完成了"},{"start":3191.741,"end":3219.444,"text":"我知道補強完成啦結論啦結論也就是說大概屬於哪類型啊就是啊地建營區啊或其他營區這些你們補強完了以後也知道原因你們才才下去補強嘛所以當然每一個橋梁完全會不一樣但是大概歸類有幾種因為工程本來這種ABC就這麼簡單啊像什麼鋼筋裸露啊或這個"},{"start":3220.545,"end":3225.406,"text":"對 跟各位報告就是一般就是說他檢測的時候比如說這個橋面的橋面板或是蹲柱或者是護欄他有一些是他的橋梁的一個構建要做這個更換那如果說比較嚴重的部分其實是整橋做改建"},{"start":3245.271,"end":3245.713,"text":"這101座當中屬於哪一類的比較多?"},{"start":3257.501,"end":3274.093,"text":"年久失修或者地震延期或者鋼筋扭弱是不是我們把因為其實是有各類的原因不過就是說局長我會不為難你啦我跟你講我會不為難你啦所以我也要拜託我們黃師長這是你監督的業務我要拜託把這101座不是補錢給他們去做檢修"},{"start":3284.58,"end":3313.834,"text":"也不是要知道這跟醫生看病一樣啊你不要猛開藥但是病情不知道所以這些不要說101座今年地震以後我就用3年的人氣預算來補助他們但是結果監督單位以及主管單位通通不知道那就沒有意義沒有意義就是表面上去做檢修補強工作但是原因不知道"},{"start":3314.474,"end":3334.255,"text":"那這個我說實在特別提醒黃師長還有我們陳正智還有我們主管的這些單位我們要把問題找出來好 問題找出來預防勝過治療所以你原因都不知道阿只有補錢給他阿我有補阿我有修所以這個部分"},{"start":3334.855,"end":3357.73,"text":"要請正次因為你是政策指導所以這個部分應該正次我提出這個是很正當一個理由也是老百姓用路人他不知不覺之不知不覺之中橋梁斷了這對他生命威脅那我們的主管機關這個部分真的要特別去注意一下"},{"start":3358.57,"end":3373.394,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,原則上這些橋梁要做檢測,他其實一定是有經過相關的分析評估,所以他一定有知道他的原因之所在。抱歉,只是因為我們現在手頭上應該是沒有統計,我們把它統計出來了以後。政治政治,這個送給我們交通委員會啊,來做參考啦。"},{"start":3379.396,"end":3399.952,"text":"以後對於這個這個這個預算的的的編類啊或什麼是否可以這個部分啊也大家可以有助以我們在審預算不乾刪的我們不會刪應該支持的我們會去支持我想理性立法委員是講理的啦也不是這個這個這個一味的做未反對而反對我們不會這樣好來另外一個來另外一個兩位局長這個趙局長跟那個來"},{"start":3408.871,"end":3422.068,"text":"有一個問題為什麼這些補強偏重於在雲林嘉義尤其我們的屏東他這個非常嚴重因為101座當中他佔了一半"},{"start":3424.918,"end":3450.243,"text":"這什麼原因來的陳局長我跟委員報告就是多數的是領海就是領海的一個就是說可能那個淫憤的一個侵蝕受淫害的一個侵蝕那有一些部分其實是因為他可能領海然後又比較小型的村裡道路通行的一個比較小型的一些橋梁那所以這個部分其實在之後的話"},{"start":3450.923,"end":3477.832,"text":"現在都有要求各地方政府其實都要落實檢測現在檢測的話其實這個通過要求以後都檢測幾乎是百分之百好陳縣長你講這些是臨海的縣市這我完全同意啦也就是大家一直在講這個地形下陷這個問題啊這個屏東雲林嘉義是非常嚴重的所以這個你們可能要加以注意啦加以注意那我還是要拜託"},{"start":3478.732,"end":3499.52,"text":"就是你們現在在檢測這些是用儀器或者用目視或者用什麼去監督這個因為我看你們的報告有三種啊但是你們那個目視啊目視啊不敢寫但是你們寫的時候用儀器來監督這個部分請說明一下好不好"},{"start":3500.657,"end":3502.339,"text":"這裏我要建議兩位局長特別一下我坦白講"},{"start":3521.559,"end":3538.265,"text":"高鐵不管怎麼樣在監控儀器方面他們是下功夫的所以我們台鐵跟高鐵這兩者之中的監視儀器的方面的投入我們是缺乏的"},{"start":3540.021,"end":3560.754,"text":"高鐵他們是用心的所以他們會比任何一個地方所以這個地方我們要多投入一氣不會騙人牧師會走光所以這個部分因為以我當民意代表的經驗牧師就要看他那天心情好不好所以這個會"},{"start":3562.875,"end":3583.641,"text":"說實在在教育裡面就誤人子弟啦在工程裡面啦這真的這個這個把生命當成玩笑所以這個部分我要建議我們正次也好我們兩位局長這個部分最後一個主席給我一分鐘最後一個就是我們高速公路來照局長我們國道7號國道7號現在完全都訂案了沒有"},{"start":3593.008,"end":3605.858,"text":"跟委員報告大概路線都定案可是為什麼一遍再變沒有沒有說一遍再變那就一個局部的地方大寮路段他有維護的調整維護的調整但是已經調整了好幾次了那個那個趙局長我知道"},{"start":3611.262,"end":3634.244,"text":"開路第一個最困難就是整個規劃還有遇到徵收是真的徵收也是很困難現在老百姓跟過去戒嚴時代完全不一樣這個我們也知道溝通但是我必須提醒趙局長這裡整個在變更的時候一定要非常小心讓老百姓知道為什麼他的工廠"},{"start":3635.646,"end":3664.634,"text":"就要閃過他的工廠到我的農地來這真的會不服氣的所以我想我們昭吉人也是南部地區的這南部都已經陳情到我這裡來所以就代表什麼就代表我們在規劃過程當中溝通不足然後一遍再遍老百姓會不服氣我們會再加一場的說明會好不好特別說明都會對啦因為我有接到這個陳情但是我也了解你們的痛苦"},{"start":3665.174,"end":3683.193,"text":"但是我們也勸他但是要讓老百姓心服口服既然你要轉到這裡來你最起碼的話在徵收部分你怎麼樣去做讓他心服口服覺得說他跟我我有比較優惑因為最後你如果整條通通不變"},{"start":3683.934,"end":3684.935,"text":"有關高速公路或公路"},{"start":3704.787,"end":3705.887,"text":"林國成委員發言完畢現在請游浩委員發言"},{"start":3742.681,"end":3742.721,"text":"有請次長"},{"start":3756.928,"end":3784.993,"text":"本席想直接請教目前來講在公務局自從民國100年起還增加了外聘專家的機制針對橋梁與都島大家拚命相關的考核那在評鑑的結果在公告在官網上但是本席查了一下官網那目前的評鑑結果只有公布到104年到109年那後續的話通通都沒有在網路上面進行公告想請教一下次長這個原因為何"},{"start":3786.113,"end":3813.813,"text":"是不是可以請公路局平建的結果應該是每一年都有平建的至於說平建的結果沒有公布我們再去查一下如果沒有的話我們再把它公布出來就直接來做一下說明因為我的辦公室幕僚有針對這個平建結果在官網上面來做一下我們再查一下因為都有都有去做這個各縣市政府的這個橋梁的一個平建那目前的話就是110年到112年平建結果通通沒有在官網上"},{"start":3815.354,"end":3837.262,"text":"對那這個部分的話我還是要請這個我們的交通部對於這個評鑑結果因為大家其實都非常關心啊那這個也是考核來講這個有其必要性嘛對不對那有其必要性的話那大家民眾以及許多的各界董事希望能夠看得到那他的這些的公告跟內容我跟委員報告評鑑結果完了以後我們還會發布新聞稿"},{"start":3837.922,"end":3838.663,"text":"現在目前來講這0403大地震"},{"start":3854.971,"end":3876.092,"text":"我相信說其實我們絕對會視為這個地震這是非常可怕而且我們都希望是能夠不僅天佑花蓮也是天佑台灣我們絕對不會用戲謔開玩笑的語氣來講到任何的災難所以我們都希望說大家都是同黨於命大家都同心那我想就教一下"},{"start":3876.713,"end":3887.964,"text":"市長就在目前來講在地震過後全台各地的這個震後有關於橋梁的檢查盤點的一個狀況還有沒有一個可以跟社會各界講解說明"},{"start":3890.247,"end":3893.629,"text":"那個就是說整個的一個就是這個地震的區域範圍我們跟0403的這個有關的我們公路局已經檢查205座那涵蓋的縣市"},{"start":3918.867,"end":3935.502,"text":"主要是在這個花蓮 花蓮縣然後部分有些應該在台東這樣子好 那本席就直接建議啦好不好因為這個地震啊還那麼大型的地震是全台各縣市的話其實都有受到這個影響"},{"start":3936.783,"end":3955.273,"text":"包括看到的震度﹐不管是花蓮﹐包括宜蘭﹐包括南投也好﹐台中甚至苗栗﹐或是包括雲林跟嘉義﹐其他震度其實有時候﹐我們看到這個數據來講﹐都是非常強的﹐所以我會本期在這裡建議﹐交通部要針對更多的縣市的橋梁﹐"},{"start":3956.494,"end":3977.611,"text":"再做一個更通盤的一個檢討因為我就相信當然說花蓮一定是首當其衝這是主要的鎮養但是像南投的話我相信在山區的許多橋梁或在南投的許多的橋梁其實都有可能因為這樣受到影響所以我是覺得說交通部其實應該要針對這個來去做一個擴大的通盤檢討還是再向交通委員會報告好不好"},{"start":3978.711,"end":4005.565,"text":"問題我想我們請兩個局就朝這個方向來做處理OK那一個月之內一個月後跟交通委員會這邊做一個書面回報啦好不好書面回報說我們因為有做了哪些因為有些特別檢查還是需要時間然後做了哪些然後什麼時候大概會辦完辦完畢好不好好OK那市長您同樣對於交通的業務及事務是非常的熟悉那本期在這裡也想要再追蹤一個案子的進度"},{"start":4006.405,"end":4025.632,"text":"上次我跟王宏威委員有針對高鐵的這個公安事件跟這個酒駕的這個檢測那時候是你也知道也在質詢團那時候在財政委員會聯席的時候有提到那想要請教目前的這個檢討報告交通部對於高鐵那這個重大的有公安危機的部分那結果如何因為就4月開始到現在從那時候記者會再跟市長您提到的話也過了兩個禮拜了因為都快過520了"},{"start":4036.201,"end":4053.777,"text":"跟委員報告我們在5月3號就當天執行了相關的檢查作業根據鐵路法第41條的規定那檢查報告也已經出來我們要求高鐵公司就這個霧電的這個情形修正他的作業程序跟規範"},{"start":4055.233,"end":4078.379,"text":"那這個部分大概是我們主要的一個要求至於執行的這個部分我們經過了解當天確實是有這樣的一個情況那要求高鐵公司必須要加強現場的一些確認跟督導的作業那我還想說這個還是盡量讓社會周知一下交通部的後續的這個處理狀況是 我們檢查的結果會公告在我們的網站上面"},{"start":4078.459,"end":4094.645,"text":"OK好那最後本期還是要針對在上個禮拜有發生一個婦人她在過斑馬線道路的時候她原廠那時候是在禮儀上結果到最後她不小心滑倒還就被車輾過去那到最後不管是在網路上或是專家學院有討論"},{"start":4095.865,"end":4117.192,"text":"在目前的斑馬線的抗滑係數可能因為時間久了所以到最後他也會讓路人在行進間的時候就滑倒所以那個夫人滑倒的剛好有車就扭過去造成這起悲劇那其實我在想在這個時候通常都是可以避免的所以本席想要就教說在目前的這個六都的抗滑係數的這種在標線上"},{"start":4119.833,"end":4126.239,"text":"那以及說在非六都的部分在這個抗滑係數這個標線的要求目前的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":4131.088,"end":4155.486,"text":"跟委員報告就是交通工程規範裡面就是說這個抗寒係數BPM要至少45以上那我自己審到的部分我們要求就是比較嚴格我們要求到55以上那這個部分的話是不是就是說他在這個施作比較久以後抗寒係數降低的部分我想我們會再要求各地方政府因為很多的這個市區路段的路口的行川線那個部分是屬於地方政府在管養的"},{"start":4156.647,"end":4159.368,"text":"規範是全國一致的,只是說因為在這個市區道路不管六都跟非六都市區道路的這一個相關的這個標線的話是屬於地方政府所主管的"},{"start":4179.117,"end":4200.946,"text":"審到的部分我們自己有要求要更嚴格的標準那本期這邊還是建議就是說第一就是在那一期的交通事件上其實是可以避免的因為時間久了標籤導致富人滑倒到時候被免過的悲劇其實是可以避免的所以這也涉及到有沒有可能到時候變成有國賠的問題如果他超過這個系數的時間那如果他是不合這個規定的"},{"start":4202.347,"end":4202.988,"text":"現在請蔡奇昌委員發言"},{"start":4240.645,"end":4265.68,"text":"謝謝主席請陳政務次長請陳次長委員好次長早安早次長今天本席有兩個議題想要就教於次長第一個我想這麼多年來本席極力在爭取那個大安溪跟大甲溪橋的改建"},{"start":4266.681,"end":4286.898,"text":"那這兩個橋其實都已經到了應該要改建的這個年限或者這個狀況所以我們從這個104年開始會刊一路到今天那公路局的同仁也多次在我的辦公室會議室服務處我們都開過現場的會刊也做過相關的協調會議那本來預計116年"},{"start":4293.743,"end":4309.573,"text":"我們就可以來完工現在看起來因為包括物價上漲、缺工等等一大堆的問題所以應該目前最新的進度是118年那預估到118年請問市長這個預算上面你覺得有沒有問題因為我看起來總預算大概要60億吧70幾億"},{"start":4324.717,"end":4330.178,"text":"有沒有問題預算上面確實就是說當初原預估的預算那因為整個設計設計之後大概包括這個整個原物料的一個一個這個提升成本的提升所以我們現在設計之後的這個兩座橋樑的這個預估費用是72億多從60億變70幾億"},{"start":4347.763,"end":4369.808,"text":"那如果說因為局裡面的話是通案的計畫是這個省道改善計畫如果放在這邊的話當然就會影響到其他的省道的一個改善沒有錯所以我們是設計完之後的話就是這個經費可能在省改的計畫如果說要放在這邊的話也希望行政院就是說可以把我們的省改計畫規模再擴大所以這個部分我想我們會設計之後會提報這個經費的額度來跟行政院爭取局長我想"},{"start":4378.171,"end":4394.125,"text":"這個你很清楚就是說我擔心的跟你其實想像的是一樣啦就大概預算因為總共從60億變70幾億如果用省到這個改省改的預算的話那我擔心的就是你的預算規模如果不夠大他會排擠到其他嗎"},{"start":4394.986,"end":4414.046,"text":"那第二個所以我今天也做了一個臨時提案嘛就是說建請可不可以把這個大安溪跟大甲溪橋的改建列一個專案這是兩條路啦當然這兩條路都要行政院啦所以本席提案是建請你們去做評估看哪一個方法是比較好"},{"start":4414.446,"end":4439.166,"text":"是擴大這個審改預算的規模來把大安溪大安溪橋做好還是另外一條路但是本席絕對不會走第三條路就是我請你放心我絕對不會寫一個這個條例我絕對不會寫一個大甲溪大安溪改建條例這一點是我跟國民黨最大的不同我都我從當副院長開始我循規蹈矩"},{"start":4440.083,"end":4456.605,"text":"依照權力分立的原則依照國家重大建設你們也要相關進行評估從可行性評估一路研議然後開始一直做做到現在你們大概10成都抓出來了然後也可以做了都沒有問題現在剩下錢"},{"start":4457.566,"end":4480.391,"text":"那錢呢怎麼來立法院委員不可以增加你們的預算所以我只能提一個建請案就我的臨時提了一個建請案建請什麼事情建請你們要想辦法要嘛行政要做一個決定把審改的預算規模擴大或者大甲系大安系就列一個專案的預算來進行處理市長這樣可不可以"},{"start":4481.31,"end":4507.369,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關支持這個大甲、大安溪的改建這一個委員所關心的事項交通部一定是全力支持包含公路局但是就有關經費的部分我們也很謝謝委員的一個提議我們會朝這個方向來處理但是我可以跟委員報告其實這整個計畫的期程他的不是一年的所以即便是看到是七十一、六十一他其實是分年在編"},{"start":4508.209,"end":4524.711,"text":"所以其實分年在編的時候當在審改裡頭它的經費也是有限但是整體上當然是先有一個專案的裁員大家會覺得比較心安但是如果就這個審改其實它是一個滾動檢討有很多的計畫也都是在這裡"},{"start":4525.051,"end":4529.813,"text":"市長今天的靈體只是讓你們去思考的方向多一個啦因為不管怎麼樣我知道就省改預算他也是分年執行嘛但是問題是局長他還是希望規模還是要擴大不管怎麼樣他還是一條蠻大的錢嘛"},{"start":4552.185,"end":4574.169,"text":"所以站在局長的角度他還是擔心排擠所以他希望能夠預算規模擴大所以不管怎樣錢一定要比以前多啦那到底把審改預算規模擴大比較好或者是我們列一個大甲溪大安溪的這個專案的預算請行政院來支持比較好所以我提了一個今天提了一個建請案一個臨時提案裡面建請你們來做這個評估所以你們趕快"},{"start":4578.751,"end":4593.01,"text":"這個我透過今天的決議也建請你們重視這個問題好不好但是千萬切記喔如果特別條例是可以的你要告訴我我講過嘛我有太多特別條例要提這個我也會寫啊大安溪大甲溪特別條例"},{"start":4594.231,"end":4620.775,"text":"就我要你們做 這個就 對不對 這不通啦所以我還是收幾句啦 我很認真要改善因為大甲溪 大安溪 在我們台中做一個台中市民而言 這個是海線很重要的交通要道每天經過那裡上班下班 所以它的安全問題它的這個美觀的問題 因為新的橋梁改建之後我相信你們的設計 現在的橋梁設計都會有很有特色嘛"},{"start":4621.255,"end":4642.757,"text":"所以我相信對地方的地警來講他幫忙也很大當然更重要就是安全跟方便好這是第一個我謝謝交通部來全力支持本席的這個計畫那第二個我看了一個報導我作為一個台中市民我實在是有點難過我看了一下去年度六都的交通事故的一個統計表"},{"start":4644.637,"end":4664.687,"text":"作為臺中市民 發現臺中市的事故 排名第一也就算了事故最多 死傷也最多而且這個比例 這個數字實在是太驚人了第二名的桃園事故事件 臺中市是7萬2 第二名桃園市剩下4萬7"},{"start":4668.393,"end":4689.067,"text":"那當然臺北市只有兩萬三嘛那臺北市如果跟臺中市來比那個差距真的太遠了那以死傷人數來講臺中高達九萬六千多人第二名的六萬三所以人家第二名開始都很接近就只有臺中市最特殊事故最多死傷最嚴重我想請問部長"},{"start":4693.936,"end":4705.296,"text":"一個縣市的交通做不好事故那麼多臺中市有沒有跟交通部提出任何他們有什麼改進的計畫或者需求"},{"start":4708.066,"end":4737.567,"text":"我先簡單就是有關這樣的一個數據呈現其實交通部非常的關切所以我們在應該是在去年也有請臺中市特別到交通部來做專案的一個報告那當然還有另外一個我們也發現這樣的一個數據我們也正在會同相關的單位因為這個數據的呈現我們覺得他是在今年開始有一個大幅度的一個去年是嗎"},{"start":4738.027,"end":4757.322,"text":"去年就是有一大幅度我們覺得那個呃呃呈現是是有問題的所以我們也會會同呃相關單位尤其是警警政所來看他的統計的資料上是不是有些市長我的意思就是說臺中市做了一個專案報告之後第一個他們有沒有解釋什麼原因第二個更重要的他們有沒有提出什麼改進的方法"},{"start":4759.35,"end":4771.169,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們也有注意到這種情形他大致上有提出一些原因啦但是我們覺得說還需要再跟他們進一步去做了解那有沒有改進的方法"},{"start":4771.89,"end":4794.64,"text":"那我們事實上也有跟我們事實上所講以及有邀請他們到我們的聯席會報做專案的報告就是說請他們從工程教育監理執法這個面向提出一些改進的他們認為最大原因是什麼?臺中市政府認為最大的原因為什麼會臺中這麼糟糕這個這麼可恥的數字都跑出來了為什麼?"},{"start":4795.331,"end":4819.312,"text":"目前初步他們是說他們的車輛數是有增加幅度比較多大概是有這幾個原因但是我們還會進一步跟他們去討論車輛數量多就曝光度高啦但是這樣的一個基於人命安全的我覺得是值得再增加的臺中市的車輛比例有跟臺北市跟其他縣市比起來有跟這個成比例嗎"},{"start":4821.701,"end":4822.781,"text":"今天特別提這個數字我認為作為一個臺中市的國會議員應該來了解關心並要求這個事情"},{"start":4846.473,"end":4873.474,"text":"這個我在這裡講這個話因為我不是臺中市議員嘛臺中市有很大的責任但如果中央我們可以協助的事情或者我們中央應該督導的事情我請交通部一定要擔負起這個責任就地方政府他各自當然他你不能全部管他嘛市長重不重視他關不關心他認為臺中市的人命值不值錢這個市長他這個身負最大的責任"},{"start":4874.571,"end":4891.69,"text":"但是我們不可以放任地方政府就是我們中央該有的去督導他去要求他或者甚至應該要協助他我覺得我們都應該要去做到或者我做一個台中市民我看到這個數字我覺得要怕死人或是台中市市發生什麼事情"},{"start":4893.123,"end":4907.197,"text":"第二名才四萬七我們七萬二然後接著四萬六四萬四三萬六兩萬三當然台北市看起來很低嘛但不管怎麼樣人家都四三四萬嘛我們台中就要七萬多這數字極為不合 極為誇張啦極為誇張"},{"start":4912.362,"end":4938.463,"text":"所以請次長多多來關心一下啦好不好到底台中市發生什麼事情我希望你們也能夠一方面督導他然後如果我們中央是我們的權責該協助的我們不分黨派協助他因為這是台中市民的生命財產好不好謝謝補充一句話就是我們有派專家學者去就近去跟他們一起共同討論看如何解決OK謝謝謝謝次長謝謝"},{"start":4941.089,"end":4963.103,"text":"蔡奇昌委員發言完畢現在請黃敬豪委員發言好謝謝主席那我們是不是請交通部我們正次還有我們公路局陳局長請陳次長陳局長"},{"start":4967.854,"end":4975.525,"text":"委員吼市長好一開始當然要先肯定說我們禮拜一也就是這個禮拜一"},{"start":4976.459,"end":4979.56,"text":"我們看一下這個是我本席禮拜二禮拜三晚上剛好經過我發現的一件事情"},{"start":5006.505,"end":5014.3,"text":"雖然說我們這個74街國道1號的這個聯絡道做好了那的確是一個很大的工程也很大的很重要的工程但是74這個"},{"start":5017.423,"end":5041.658,"text":"快速道路很多的閘道包含崇德那段的閘道好像到我昨天晚上開的時候都還沒有開通我想問一下為什麼跟委員報告那我們在這個系統叫大系統叫到司空的時候他總共封了三個閘道包括崇德的西路那還有北屯二的一個東出跟那個東出東路跟西出"},{"start":5042.398,"end":5043.319,"text":"因為我覺得民眾的期待是說這個"},{"start":5066.926,"end":5088.846,"text":"通車典禮辦了之後,不只是可以接國道而已,包含過往直接下去,直接市區道路這一段也應該一併的開放,因為如果你不開放,其實就變成上面比較通暢,但是下面照樣在塞車,因為其實是下面的這個道路,它其實就是重要的幹,然後連接了所謂大崖北屯西屯,這個下面的道路,如果因為這個工區,"},{"start":5090.227,"end":5105.755,"text":"實施沒有把它解決的話大家就覺得我想這兩天包含我自己的這個社群網路也好我輔助也好大家的一個疑問就是阿不是通車了嗎阿通是通假的再一個月能不能加快一點我們盡快齁因為我們這個底下他必須要整個要清空才可以"},{"start":5106.215,"end":5132.184,"text":"我是建議啦,如果未來還有相關的工程要通車就一次通車,不然民眾會覺得說這個是不是就像我標題上寫的好像是為了趕520錢的通車典禮把它辦一辦當然我還是要肯定,我沒有否定你們的這個的付出但是要通車我們希望一併的把這個所有的交通節點都打開再來辦通車,要塞車一次塞完不要說好像辦通車典禮大家期待不會塞車,結果下面還在塞車"},{"start":5133.144,"end":5158.332,"text":"我們是想說做完的上面的部分都全部開放那底下是在只是把工區整理好啦沒關係我是希望趕快啦這個東西齁要說明跟民眾說明清楚不要讓大家誤會覺得好像就大家真的覺得這個520通車好像是假的齁國道通了但是下面沒通這個還是尤其在上下班的時候大家情緒都很激烈好接下來我們要本今天本期的主題啊我想這個橋梁的問題"},{"start":5160.509,"end":5177.104,"text":"一看到我們找到的數據,如果有誤的話,要請你們更正一下我想這全國的橋梁大概從我們拿到的數據裡面有22982個橋梁那分屬不同的機關在管理那為什麼今天特別會感謝趙偉辦的這個今天的專案報告"},{"start":5180.347,"end":5195.796,"text":"因為這問題其實本來也很想問就從2019年這南方大橋垮下來之後大家才發現當初的南方的橋是臺灣省政府還在的時候委託宜蘭縣興建那後來是基隆港務局管理那後來是港務公司來接手"},{"start":5196.596,"end":5217.858,"text":"但是到這個2016年的時候呢﹖李亮星政府跟港公司都以為這座橋是縣府在管轄的就是說一座橋從興建到管理到後來交接出去之後好像各單位都不知道那個橋到底是誰的那以現在所屬這個數據裡面來看到從交通部內政部各單位到各縣市政府縣市政府當然很多嘛有這樣兩萬多座橋梁"},{"start":5219.502,"end":5246.888,"text":"那這樣子在管理上面在維護上面是不是會有多頭馬車全車不限的問題那交通部有沒有希望來建立一個全國儀式性的橋梁的主管機關我跟那個委員說明一下有關剛才特別提到南方號斷橋之後其實整個行政院大概有檢討剛才委員特別提到的各個部會其他管下有所管理的很多的橋梁"},{"start":5247.208,"end":5252.775,"text":"甚至在當時的交通委員會也有做有關這樣的一個討論但是討論了以後認為其實現在因為有各個這個養護或管理的一個權責在所以還是後來的決議還是分開來做相關的一個管理"},{"start":5263.809,"end":5282.184,"text":"但是呢他整個的這個系統也好統計也好或者是檢測的這個方式也好或者耳後檢測督導的我想他也都做了一個很明確的一個全責分工這個維護管理所以現在的維護管理也一樣是分散在各單位嗎現階段對"},{"start":5286.652,"end":5289.194,"text":"反而是提升到行政院他定有一個維護管理的一個計畫在那個計畫下面"},{"start":5317.032,"end":5344.883,"text":"在那個計畫的下面他就會有相關的管理的權責督導的權責執行養護的權責主責單位是誰?現在有主責單位嗎?市長因為時間剩不夠了所以我要給你一個案例啦我想他常常講台日也好台日也好那以日本為例隔壁日本他的橋呢有72萬他當然也是有很多單位包含說國土交通省啊高速公路司啊然後督導府縣各地都有在管但他同樣的他的國土交通省除了"},{"start":5345.803,"end":5375.443,"text":"對於自己本身就像你現在交通部一樣你對自己的橋梁有管理之外他其實同時他對於其他單位的橋梁的維修看這個這個檢測也都是這個國土交通省他一定一併來負責所以今天本期這只是第一個PPTA就時間不夠了今天這個本期要提的是說是不是未來交通部應該擔起這個管理或是說至少維護跟檢修的責任要有一個橋梁總要有一個組織不定好如果今天交通部沒辦法的話是誰要來做這件事情"},{"start":5376.143,"end":5403.852,"text":"因為萬一如果到時候又出現問題的時候好像各單位互相不了解這座橋樑因為我本來要提的說其實全台灣有很多的橋樑30年以上的就有含不詳的年齡就不知道多久的有1萬將近1萬5千座橋樑30年以上所以不知道要蓋多久所以這些橋樑如果沒有一個組織機關來管理來維修的話萬一後續出問題的時候或是平常沒有人維護的話沒有人知道你手上可能也沒數據啊"},{"start":5404.992,"end":5409.701,"text":"所以是不是有機會 交通部應該往這個方向去調整管理的方式 市長"},{"start":5412.612,"end":5437.847,"text":"報告一下那個原則上因為是他有這可以看到他有不同的一個屬性還有地點的一個不同所以才會說現在的橋梁即便是在各個不同單位在管養但是到了上面的督導單位原則上大部分如果是交通部跟內政部在負責督導所以不會有產生說沒有人管的一個情形"},{"start":5438.507,"end":5440.108,"text":"黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5467.527,"end":5495.232,"text":"好謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳次長陳次長我們高工局的趙局長趙局長委員好次長高工局的工程有發生弊案你知道嗎這個是2021年啊檢調去開挖高工局在國道中遼隧道啦越市間中遼隧道啦"},{"start":5496.667,"end":5524.298,"text":"那開發的結果發現啊因為他那個隧道工程也有邊坡啦他岩栓啦岩栓應該就是要摔到那個那個斜坡岩石上面的開發的結果第一個不合格率有62%超過一半不合格那第二次再去再去檢驗有46%不合格那這個是關係到工程安全最重要的"},{"start":5525.658,"end":5543.384,"text":"那這個營造公司他把沙漿吊包本來要灌沙漿吊包改成青漿那個鹽酸他數量不合格以外他還拿去偷賣還拿去偷賣錢多的還拿去賣給廢料公司"},{"start":5548.837,"end":5573.335,"text":"那這個案子啊那你高工級現在怎麼處理跟委員報告那這裡面就是說涉及到那個不法的廠商跟建造的那個供應公司那已經在立那個法院審判當中那我們針對的邊坡是109年完成的那我們在檢測的結果他這個有缺失的部分大概是第三第四階的部分那我們針對這個部分有做一個補強那也這個補強做完再補強就算了"},{"start":5574.936,"end":5596.633,"text":"2011年剪掉就去開發了那新聞今年才出來那發生一件了那又發生了第二件了大園交流道到台15線新闢道路工程因為發生了公安事件那工人啊掉下來被鋼筋砸死後來啊去檢查"},{"start":5601.742,"end":5624.108,"text":"從 才發現啦 都偷工減料 沒有暗讀施工跟前面的中遙隧道發生的原因都一樣就是他沒有暗讀施工 然後都偷工減料那我們的監照在哪裡啦我們自己高工局派在現場的人員在做什麼事"},{"start":5625.57,"end":5653.692,"text":"跟委員報告 這個我們現在高工局沒有那麼多人力所以我現在都是委託建造那這個地方的部分 它是樣價金的部分 它不是在橋梁的主金裡面的所以可以偷工減料所以它是零食設施設施 不然施工也沒有關係啊你怎麼說這個意思是這樣沒有沒有 我跟委員報告就是說 第一個就是說它的一個品質是沒有問題的 第二個就是 偷工減料叫品質沒問題它有問題的部分是在施工的零食的一個設施的樣金的部分出人命欸"},{"start":5656.634,"end":5675.781,"text":"這判定就是說那工人為什麼會掉下來?因為你頭工減料啊,你沒有教導師工啊你現在跟我說品質沒問題,沒有關係我是跟委員報告是說,坐在裡面的部分是沒問題所以你工程能不夠,你自己的工程你就不負責了來,市長,像這種你工程內部要不要行政處分啊?你為這工程的人要不要處分啊?"},{"start":5680.511,"end":5700.546,"text":"我跟委員報告有關這個有關在交通部現行督導上有關這個發生公安的時候我們大概都會要求不是公安是這是閉案是偷工減料沒有按圖施工這部分我想我先跟委員報告而且你那個中寮隧道"},{"start":5701.707,"end":5725.023,"text":"在那剛開始做施工的過程2018年交通部你們自己也不有一個工程查核小組啦這一部設在交通部裡面的他就去檢查中寮隧道他就查出了32項缺失啦那查出了缺失以後啦然後呢這件事情就看不到了就放在抽屜裡面啦"},{"start":5729.821,"end":5739.27,"text":"後續竟然還是一樣發生了沒有暗圖施工然後呢 偷工減難的問題如果不是因為減難關接到密報去開挖這個事情讓那灌漿蓋過去啦這事情沒人知道的"},{"start":5748.888,"end":5770.556,"text":"來 你說啊委員有關這個我們回去請我們的中規司再來瞭解一下如果有相關的人我知道你也答不出來啦你交通部這個制度就有問題啦因為自己部裡面的集合小組查到自己的單位你們部裡面的工程有出現問題然後關關相護啦"},{"start":5776.445,"end":5789.011,"text":"三十二項缺失,不是三項,你們早就檢查出來,然後更離譜的啦,那個建造也是啦,建造公司還作弊啦,工程日誌啊,檢查的時間啊,那寫錯啦,還寫在灌漿以前,你知道嗎,做表就不要做表,一般是灌漿而已才可以檢查,對不對?"},{"start":5804.707,"end":5807.599,"text":"他寫那個檢查日期寫在灌漿以前這個也被檢察官抓到啊"},{"start":5812.548,"end":5819.175,"text":"根委員報告我們都已經這個在4年前發生了一個事情我們現在來講是說也經過我們那個整個在補強然後也經過大地工程學會我們有第三方的認證目前是這個邊坡是穩定安全"},{"start":5836.572,"end":5863.264,"text":"所以你現在發生就發生案子已經在法院審判你們相關的單位包括你自己本人一件接一件又不是一件你工具都是國家最重要的國道都你們管的每次發發重大工程我才找到兩件都有弊案的而且都是那種偷工減料的不按圖施工是還有出人命的"},{"start":5866.417,"end":5882.109,"text":"市長你這裡面你們有行政處分嗎?你們自己不用檢討嗎?還有你們的集合流程你們蓋嗎?是我想委員提出來的這些問題我們內部做一些檢討如果有相關人員疏失的話我們會做相關的行政處分"},{"start":5884.366,"end":5911.833,"text":"你給我打官腔的喔?不是阿你講這個有緋味阿我跟委員剛才有你一定要有處分阿你現在要檢討什麼?我有話講啦我剛才有講被你打斷了就是那個公安的部分我們都有要求假設有公安的時候包含監照雙方甲乙雙方甚至工程單位我們也都會要求做相關的一個行政的處分那這裡頭有特別提到這種施工上的弊案的這些我想我們會一併做檢討是"},{"start":5914.073,"end":5923.464,"text":"投訴高峰局的啦這個單位要注意啦我想交通部管的都要注意啦好 謝謝市長 謝謝局長"},{"start":5928.244,"end":5950.279,"text":"林俊憲委員發言完畢先做以下的報告及說明我們等一下許智傑委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘請各黨團告知其他尚未發言的委員以便他們時間的安排另外"},{"start":5951.66,"end":5963.993,"text":"本日由委員提出臨時提案依本會往例在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理稍後我們將在陳樹業委員詢討完畢之後再隨即處理臨時提案現在請林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":5981.39,"end":5982.216,"text":"主席有請次長請次長"},{"start":5989.08,"end":6018.052,"text":"委員好市長好今天既然第一個議題本席想要討論的是有關我們今天講橋梁安全那全國差不多21縣市差不多有16300多座的橋梁那我想請問一下說我們目前的橋梁超過40歲以上的橋梁也就是應該準備要修的橋梁大概有幾座這個手上上你們有嗎不好意思如果有的話我們提供一下數據"},{"start":6022.474,"end":6036.071,"text":"跟委員報告我們交通部這邊有建置一個所謂的車型橋梁管理系統那就是裡面去匯集包括地方政府所管轄的這個橋梁的一些資料"},{"start":6036.591,"end":6059.329,"text":"那根據我們的這個目前這個信訪裡面的資料剛才委員所詢問橋橋嶺的部分40年以上的橋樑大概目前應該有3248座車型橋樑所以差不多是五分之一嗎?對不對?差不多將近一萬六千多橋樑我們現在全國大概是兩萬兩萬兩千多兩萬兩千多嗎?"},{"start":6064.654,"end":6080.306,"text":"縣市政府的話是16500多為什麼會這樣問的原因因為403大地震剛發生那我們都知道說橋我記得沒有錯前一陣子大家最關心橋梁安全這個全國矚目的案件是有關南方澳大橋"},{"start":6081.087,"end":6101.576,"text":"那如果我記得沒有錯的話南方二大橋的橋林差不多不到40年30年甚至好像連30年都不到我記得1999還是1989那30年到20年之間的橋林然後就發生斷裂那這就表示說其實我們的地質在接受在接受任何的這個變化的時候是相當不穩定的那只要橋一斷"},{"start":6103.016,"end":6105.277,"text":"請問針對以上地方的橋樑有關超過40年的請問目前我們的偵測跟修補的計劃是什麼"},{"start":6127.328,"end":6152.022,"text":"跟委員報告一下原則上在地方主管的橋梁他都要每年要去做一些相關的一個檢測那檢測完以後他會有一個U值那U值大於4的就是大概要是立即要應該是維修就是要維修那甚至如果不能修可能就要重建等等的所以剛才特別提到40年以上的橋梁不必然是要做"},{"start":6152.722,"end":6154.483,"text":"本席是絕對尊重我們交通的專業但是必須要提醒說因為"},{"start":6177.475,"end":6196.748,"text":"403這是大地震未來還有很多餘震當然很多餘震甚至是我們感受我們的體感體感感受不到的那這些餘震都對於地質都對於地層會有很深的影響那與其是說到事情發生了憾事發生了然後有人走掉了我們再去來去檢討說當初我們可以做更好"},{"start":6197.268,"end":6220.889,"text":"本席會建議在這邊以交通部的這個整整宏觀來講必須先預先先真的是真的是超前部署先去預先去預防這樣的事情發生好那第二個本席今天要討論剛好我們公路局的主局長在那就是有關電動大客車的問題因為其實我們本席一直不只是因為最近能源能源危機不管是我們能源政策說真的"},{"start":6221.289,"end":6236.602,"text":"是有錯誤的啦 能源政策的錯誤也好還是全球的這個環保意識高漲也好 變成是我們這電動大客車的政策嚴格是方向是正確的 但是人家講一句話就是說理想很豐滿 現實很骨感"},{"start":6238.323,"end":6254.103,"text":"那我一直聽到業者有跟我反應說我們這個電動巴士全國電動巴士2030全國化對吧但是到目前為止好像很多業者針對台電他們那邊無法配合他們能夠電動巴士到位是不是有這個狀況"},{"start":6257.196,"end":6282.021,"text":"想跟委員報告一下有關各縣市在尤其是我們公路局核定電動巴士的時候不管是路線也要廠站也好我們在那裡頭都有一個條件就是說希望他要跟地方政府台電要跟地方政府大家共同去討論如何來提供穩定的電力來幫他們足以充電所以這個部分是有些"},{"start":6282.941,"end":6297.338,"text":"一開始的時候是有些縣市有提出來但是後來因為我們相關的補助補助的機制裡面就有縣市政府要共同來協助所以這個問題這就是我現在為什麼把電動巴士這個議題拿出來講的原因因為一方面講像我"},{"start":6298.639,"end":6321.377,"text":"如果六都相對來講財源比較充足的話電動巴士的購買、電動巴士的裝置會比較輕鬆但像我基隆市財政困難的時候這方面可能就需要公路局做補助這一方面這個除此之外那其實臺電現在是否有足夠的電力在2030提供全國的巴士電動化其實本席對這件事保持高度的懷疑"},{"start":6322.421,"end":6347.017,"text":"因為甚至來講說我們2030如果真的要電動化的話我們現在電夠不夠電動裝夠不夠我們現在的發電廠怎麼樣南電北送各方面的事情全部都沒有idea我上次直接問國發會主委國發會主委說我不知道等我回去查給你然後我等了一個月之後也沒有任何資料上來那其實我個人認為這是相當不負責任的一個態度在推行公共政策來講這是非常不負責任的一個態度"},{"start":6349.249,"end":6365.458,"text":"2030全面電動巴士2040全面電動小客車跟全面電動機車2050全國無碳化但是我們怎麼樣用電我們不知道那我們現在電是什麼我們燒煤炭我們添燃氣甚至有一些有10%不到是用綠能"},{"start":6366.198,"end":6381.637,"text":"但是這樣的情況之下我們其實電力不夠充足的時候甚至連我們基本的生產甚至我們基本的經濟發展都不能維持那你怎麼去做到全國無碳化這點我想說交通部這其實不只是交通部問題這是應該是已經上升到行政院的問題了"},{"start":6382.358,"end":6408.25,"text":"但是交通部是直接要去直接去執行這至少是2030跟2040的政策我希望說在會後我今天質詢我也知道一時之間交通部拿不出一個完整的報告但是我蠻希望在一個月之內我能夠至少交通部針對怎麼樣去達到你們說的2030電動巴士全國化怎麼樣去達到2040電動小客車電動機車全國化我覺得是不是比較務實的做法次長你覺得呢"},{"start":6409.981,"end":6435.115,"text":"相關的這個委員所需要的一個書面的一個報告我們來提供但是也跟委員報告有關剛才委員特別提到臺電其實我們公路局有跟臺電有個窗口來協助各縣市當他有電動巴士要設置的時候相關電網的一個供應有這樣的一個機制在這裡面那後續呢其實我們的補助裡頭也會去補助各個客運業者他有儲能的設備意思就是說在尖離風的這個"},{"start":6436.596,"end":6437.537,"text":"林佩祥委員發言完畢,現在請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":6469.298,"end":6496.232,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請次長請次長徐維好次長好 其實交通部事情非常的龐雜有很多事情要慢慢的成熟之後我們看政策的實施要慢慢的去與時濟進我們先看停車位"},{"start":6499.69,"end":6516.025,"text":"我想前一陣子騎樓停車的事次長應該很清楚啦其實很多都很困擾尤其是鄉下地方鄉下地方騎樓停車好像都是很自然的事"},{"start":6517.498,"end":6545.272,"text":"而且也不會影響到交通那當然交通部當時規定這個變成說檢舉達人很多針對騎樓停車這個是全國一致就是大部分都會覺得相當的困擾那臺北市我知道這部分是處理到差不多了啦臺北市騎樓停車的狀況其實很少那越鄉下"},{"start":6546.434,"end":6559.778,"text":"去得停這個情況就越普遍那檢舉達人不斷的去檢舉造成地方很大的困擾所以當然我們要去修這個檢舉達人在違罪比如說你1200塊以下那"},{"start":6566.158,"end":6594.497,"text":"可以不能檢舉甚至就是說你只要留著1.5米的通道保障行人的路權這算是一個權宜的措施所以我們在做事情有很多就是說從正面的思考跟從反面的思考那怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點針對取得停車的部分現在也真的是不能停那所以停車位置"},{"start":6597.089,"end":6621.643,"text":"現在我們很多里面反應就是說我騎樓不能停然後我出去外面租位置租不到怎麼辦那就亂停亂停也會被開單亂停也會影響到交通所以這個停車的位置我覺得全國應該就是就"},{"start":6623.075,"end":6646.385,"text":"城市有需要的地方真的需要再做一個銅盤的思考那我們的前瞻改善停車問題的計畫現在好像都用完了對不對全部都用完了嗎是是個委員報告是2600億都已經260億260億都已經分配完了不好意思好那交通部"},{"start":6653.949,"end":6657.715,"text":"針對這個問題還有沒有去做思考未來要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":6659.801,"end":6659.981,"text":"我舉個例子"},{"start":6685.493,"end":6704.525,"text":"像我們高雄市這張圖是我們鳳山運動園區的圖那當時在陳局市長的任內要去做這個運動園區的時候事實上我就跟陳市長跟交通局跟公務局反映要預留我們的地下停車場"},{"start":6706.585,"end":6735.664,"text":"阿所以後來運動園區做完之後那我們的地下停車場也如當時我們的建議現在也完成坦白講當地的居民真的是非常的感謝阿沒有真的沒有地方停車那再來看我們鳳山的無價國債你看底下那個無價國債齁我們差不多有7000戶啦停車位多少你知道嗎差不多8倍位啦"},{"start":6739.958,"end":6764.881,"text":"你叫他安裝所以市府我們希望說再多規劃但是多規劃同一個平面不然就做立體都有很多不一樣的思考但是我們要替居民一味攔球不是他要違規停車他真的不知道要停下來所以我們再做一個最簡單的交通的"},{"start":6766.055,"end":6792.654,"text":"規劃在我們想到的大型建設以外這就是小市民的需求那我覺得我們政府要發展經濟照顧作勢或是照顧他無法處理的小生活問題我覺得這個是看起來是小但是是大這是全國的問題包括像我們有次龍城宮現在要做那個捷運站"},{"start":6794.463,"end":6823.515,"text":"附近若沒有停車規劃這時候都會很難過包括我們鳳山車站的周邊我們現在要BOT要BOT之後我們就開始要整個停車位整個停車位當然我可以努力的 我要持負努力或有其他的國有財產署的地或是其他的相關的地我們可以努力的 我們會盡量去努力但是交通部有沒有去做這樣子的思考"},{"start":6824.571,"end":6825.192,"text":"復康巴士"},{"start":6850.541,"end":6873.596,"text":"復甘巴士現在還是有增燃料稅復甘巴士跟我們講我都是在作誰我都是在尤其將來長照是國家推動的重要的方向需要復甘巴士的人會越來越多越來越多現在又開始老年化"},{"start":6874.782,"end":6894.764,"text":"所以這個部分我是希望說這是你們的內規啦就是說那個免材料費的我們先看上面一條上面一頁你們的第第四條的那個第五點因為時代不同了電動車就不用了吧因為他沒有吃汽油吧"},{"start":6895.899,"end":6911.504,"text":"好那這個是後來加的吧第6點計程車也是後來加的因為計程車它被列為大眾運輸嘛那富康巴士事實上它載的也是跟Uber一樣下一張"},{"start":6912.526,"end":6939.827,"text":"那Uber被列為計程車那Uber是你有下載有預約那也算是大眾運輸所以Uber它現在是可以免燃料費那我們的富康巴士你看這個它存在的對象呢事實上它是符合特定資格你們當時的答覆給高雄市政府的答覆是說不行但是呢事實上它是殘障或者是弱勢的大眾"},{"start":6942.833,"end":6961.798,"text":"所以我是覺得而且它又有公益的性質那包括財政部的那個牌照稅都有公益的性質可以少掉復康巴士的牌照稅那是不是我們交通部有沒有機會把這個復康巴士列為免燃料稅的一個項目"},{"start":6966.076,"end":6992.037,"text":"趕快趕快現在時間到了我跟委員報告一下委員剛才特別提到的那個計程車的部分會加進去其實應該是說又有法源所以大眾運輸發展條例裡面有提到準公共運輸所以把它納進去那這裡頭因為富康巴士是不是在那個條例裡面所以才我們在這裡才有曾經解釋說他是不符合所以我就說"},{"start":6992.918,"end":7007.812,"text":"有關這方面我們委員竟然有這樣的一個提議我們來看一下看是如何來做處理時代與時俱進嘛是那另外我說的不管是長照不管是長輩長照這些其實他也算是大眾"},{"start":7009.58,"end":7010.741,"text":"財政部都有去協助復康巴士的牌照率"},{"start":7027.236,"end":7055.244,"text":"衛福部當然對於弱勢的照顧他有一套套的辦法那交通部至少對弱勢跟弱勢的大眾也有一點協助的誠意嘛所以希望說交通部在這一部分做一下研究啦現在你沒有辦法回答馬上回答也沒關係但是我希望說研究一下下一次我會再問新的部長也會再問所以希望你們認真的研究一下好不好是是是好OK 謝謝"},{"start":7057.425,"end":7061.85,"text":"謝謝徐委員：花園王斌：也謝謝邱若驊委員：現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7089.65,"end":7112.777,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7137.388,"end":7143.791,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7166.044,"end":7179.475,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7202.34,"end":7219.927,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7221.988,"end":7246.508,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7247.529,"end":7265.45,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7312.108,"end":7321.634,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7332.513,"end":7353.433,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7388.779,"end":7398.506,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7420.253,"end":7426.597,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7441.015,"end":7450.3,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7467.489,"end":7477.797,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7497.049,"end":7515.702,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7536.742,"end":7544.374,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7667.659,"end":7667.679,"text":"請次長"},{"start":7692.7,"end":7718.829,"text":"委員好市長早市長好市長我想先請問您還記得在今年2月29號的時候在彰化的深港鄉發生了什麼事嗎就是姊妹過馬路三姊弟就是遭撞的不幸事件那這起事故公路局有針對事發現場提出三項的交通道路設計改善方案是"},{"start":7719.309,"end":7739.1,"text":"那本席是希望不要每次發生悲劇才重視問題然後針對個案來解決那在這件事之後公路局有沒有檢視就是有多少地方就像包含國道的道路還有橋梁工程設計有沒有發現是多少處是針對我們駕駛還有行人是不安全的"},{"start":7740.62,"end":7761.228,"text":"我簡單說明一下再請公路局來說說明原則上公路局在這事件發生事故發生之後我們就邀請公路局要全面檢視他的省道的相關的一個路口那他們會在今年明年大概會做一個全面的一個檢視跟改善那相關的情形我是不是請局長來做說明"},{"start":7762.222,"end":7783.362,"text":"是跟各位報告第一個就是說這個路口台六一乙這一個部分的話當然就是優先已經就是說會刊然後做相關的一個改善方案的那另外就是說其實對於省道路口裡面就是說比較這個重大的路口或是交通量大的我們都列為最優先那我們省道的路口號誌化的路口其實"},{"start":7784.342,"end":7807.17,"text":"整個就是說有兩萬九千多處那我們今年這個最優先的七千七千多處我們今年都會把它做完這個改善那大概就是明年底會把這一個全部兩萬九千多處全部做完相關的改善市長有提到今年已經開始進行的所以是已經有開始針針對就是比較已經開始了所以會到會有一個完整的"},{"start":7809.81,"end":7834.657,"text":"我給完整的報告說明我們要怎麼改善分為有耗資跟無耗資的今年跟明年等等的交通事故因爲國道還有公路橋梁包括就是標線標線還有耗資不符合設計規範申請國賠的案件有多少目前我們交通不了解到的"},{"start":7835.61,"end":7861.838,"text":"跟各位報告國培的部分的話其實他要看他的主管機關如果說他主管機關是在地方政府的話就跟地方政府申請那如果說是其實屬於這個省道是我們主管的話他當然就是說他認為說這個事故有因果關係是跟我們的道路的這些設施有關係的話當然他提起國培的話不過就是說提起國培之後的話因為他有一些相關的審議的程序那要經過這個審議之後才會去確認"},{"start":7864.459,"end":7871.103,"text":"市長目前掌握到的件數有多少件?市長目前了解到國道上是沒有那交通部的公路還有橋梁維護檢測還有補強設計等規範都是因為在109年的時候那時候的南方澳大橋斷裂的時候"},{"start":7893.596,"end":7894.296,"text":"有作修改．"},{"start":7911.015,"end":7923.322,"text":"我想這部分我們也可以提供資料讓委員充分的瞭解。委員這上我就講橋梁好了。橋梁的部分透過剛才委員講109年的南方大戰橋之後,其實110年國家的耐震補強的規範有受一些改變。"},{"start":7929.466,"end":7935.91,"text":"在此之後我們的公路局跟高工局分別會就應該是519處的一個橋梁跟1182座高速公路上的橋梁會做全面的耐震補強"},{"start":7959.606,"end":7980.129,"text":"公路局的北區養護工程分局那再次確認大橋的安全還有未來邊坡的加固那請問後續的處理狀況我想謝謝委員因為這個整個會刊大概我們也對八林大橋重新再做一個檢視那因為確實有發現就是說它的下邊坡受到河道的一個沖刷需要再做一個"},{"start":7980.589,"end":7984.53,"text":"臺灣市政府提到均衡城鄉都市計劃區外非公路系統道路改善計劃給公路局,其中有兩岸是復興區,請問何時可以審核完成?"},{"start":8007.654,"end":8009.195,"text":"本行認為對沒有道路編號的路面破損補助有助於交通事故的減少,那明年還會有嗎?"},{"start":8035.586,"end":8058.958,"text":"因為其實在這個公路局就是他主要就是這個補助地方是有公路編號的這一個這一個市道、區道、縣道、鄉道那這個沒有編號的這個部分的話是在這個今年度特別行政院有編列一筆預算來協助這個地方政府做沒有編號道路的這個處理那我想"},{"start":8059.338,"end":8079.931,"text":"如果說這一個有再有急迫我們再跟行政院是不是再做相關的一個申請地方政府再提出申請嗎那在交通部113到116年的時候有提一個國家道路交通安全綱要計劃其中提到成效的工程升級是改善路口的環境但是道路還有橋梁上面的設計呢這項計劃只有提到路口"},{"start":8085.725,"end":8086.105,"text":"目前有提出相關的計畫嗎?"},{"start":8104.204,"end":8125.889,"text":"這個跟回報告就是說因為現在就是說第一個就是說所有的全國的橋梁都要納入檢測檢測之後就是說如果有需要做維修的要處理那維修的部分的話基本上就是像屬於這個地方政府要自己做的有些是跟內政部有些是跟我們交通部那我們交通部其實在生活圈的計畫也可以來協助他們"},{"start":8126.089,"end":8136.901,"text":"因為局長我在同一份報告看到他有指出部分直轄市縣市政府對道路養護管理還有無障礙的人行環境之建構並不是很重視為什麼會有這樣子的說法"},{"start":8137.918,"end":8157.196,"text":"在報告裡面總指出哪些縣市不是很重視沒有很重視有關這個人行行人的這個安全的剛才特別提到人行道德所以我們在這一次的人本的永續的行人安全的一個計畫裡面"},{"start":8158.217,"end":8161.099,"text":"市長我想說針對這個問題也要想到是因為經費還是資源能力不足以及工程專業的問題"},{"start":8183.308,"end":8185.129,"text":"反請交通部因為道路安全是中央與地方要共同合作那地方遇到問題再希望中央"},{"start":8210.282,"end":8211.763,"text":"邱若驊委員發言完畢 現在請何欣淳委員發言謝謝主席李坤澤召委 那我們請陳次長"},{"start":8239.023,"end":8258.018,"text":"委員好市長好所以今天講的是公路系統跟老舊橋梁的改建那我想之前好幾年來我也一直非常支持交通部還有相關的部會提出來有關這個危險的老舊橋梁的改建那今天除了公路系統之外公路系統就是要讓大家行的安全"},{"start":8259.498,"end":8278.025,"text":"交通平權選擇性的一個多元性在目前的政策裡面我覺得還要再加一把勁尤其針對身心障礙者跟引髮族型的權益所以我就要就教於次長我請問次長你知道嗎台灣已經暴露非常"},{"start":8278.985,"end":8279.005,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8300.894,"end":8319.048,"text":"會有重疊但是呢他告訴我們在未來我們對於這個交通平權要關心納入身心障礙者以及因發族的需求無障礙的一個交通工具跟環境他的普及性是勢在必行市長你同不同意"},{"start":8320.148,"end":8346.667,"text":"非常同意委員的看法是嘛 對不對那我們要不要做 要做啊而且要更積極的來面對跟做嘛我們現在目前看到的以台中市我所在的台中市身障者跟感染者的這個大眾交通非常的不便大不便這個是我從這個媒體上google出來的這個身心障礙者呢他如果要坐這個電動公車放入以鍍板"},{"start":8347.327,"end":8349.188,"text":"台中市的公車總量1558輛建制升降設備的公車只有52輛當然"},{"start":8368.86,"end":8369.14,"text":"臺中市"},{"start":8386.525,"end":8413.238,"text":"升降設備的公車的比例只有0.3%然後呢如果真的我們的身心障礙者有幸的在搭這一條路線碰到這個電動公車是有這樣子輪椅鍍板的我們上一站還要花7分鐘表示什麼?非常的大不便而且我必須講這個前提是什麼?這個身心障礙者還必須要搭對路線知道這個路線有這樣子的公車"},{"start":8414.963,"end":8433.948,"text":"那你知道臺中市的公車路線裡面有這種電動公車可以放輪椅鍍板的比例又更少欸市長那我以臺中市的例子來告訴你全臺灣六都跟廢六都我相信狀況不會比臺中市好接下來下一個"},{"start":8435.25,"end":8449.164,"text":"那有人就會說還有復康巴士的這個長照的系統啊剛剛有其他委員提到有長照的系統啊那我要告訴你以台中市為例復康巴士不足根本沒有辦法滿足需求啊這也是媒體"},{"start":8452.995,"end":8462.126,"text":"臺中的復康巴士非常難預約,去年有1.3萬人排不上,年取消預約近2萬人次。"},{"start":8467.935,"end":8492.24,"text":"障礙者、行動不便者他們如果要能夠外出除了自由的交通運具之外再來靠的什麼?大眾交通系統再來靠的是什麼?長照或者是復康巴士如果說這三個需求他都沒有辦法滿足甚至預約不到甚至做不到他很難走出來"},{"start":8493.715,"end":8493.735,"text":"來 次長"},{"start":8517.392,"end":8533.876,"text":"是我想我非常同意委員的這種看法我簡單跟委員報告一下其實這個就是一個無障礙的一個行的環境剛才前面有幾張投影片是講大客車的一個部分那大客車的部分原則上我們是要求市區的應該現在我的了解應該有70%的地地板"},{"start":8536.557,"end":8558.466,"text":"一種是低底盤的電動公車這個7層以上你們有要求這個我同意有這樣子的一個要求但是低底盤的電動公車並不能滿足所有身障者或者行動不便者高齡者的需求所以呢像這樣子有放輪椅鍍板的"},{"start":8561.034,"end":8574.383,"text":"比例更是少而且你們沒有相關的法規要求六都或其他縣市甚至我們在補助電動公車設置這樣的裝備設施我們的要求或者是我們的補助門檻"},{"start":8576.544,"end":8593.865,"text":"我的了解應該補助都有那至於說如何來push要求讓它的數量能夠增加我再跟委員報告一下剛才還有講到這個是大客車我們另外現在正在推中巴的地地板公車"},{"start":8594.806,"end":8622.629,"text":"在很多的尤其台中市有很多偏鄉偏鄉的中巴中巴到目前為止是沒有的所以我們要把它解決中巴到目前為止是沒有的我到現在我還沒有講到這一點你自己講出來喔所以所有行駛偏鄉的尤其偏鄉很多是老人家長者或是行動不便的他們的對外的交通的工具的選擇性又更少了喔我跟各位報告這樣的一個車型原則上我們會在年底"},{"start":8623.67,"end":8645.621,"text":"中巴會把它推出來那另外一個委員剛才特別提到的有關這個復康巴士部署就是談到這個通用的這個計程車我現在跟你講通用是等一下跟你講喔因為什麼不是只有這個大巴、中巴還有復康巴士那呢我在跟你講不是只有我在呼籲消基會也曾經在去年開過記者會"},{"start":8647.282,"end":8660.189,"text":"消機會也為消費者注意到這個問題身障不便的人常常困在家中是因為他走不出去所以呢我們希望政府可以更進一步的來讓我剛剛講的集門性的交通服務能夠量能夠擴大嘛"},{"start":8666.593,"end":8693.11,"text":"所以我們行政院現在通勤月票的這個政策包括補助讓國人滿意度是最高而且獲得很大的支持度可是這個是對一般那很多的身障不變的人或者是行動不變的引髮族他事實上對於這個交通補助我們的這個通勤月票也好或者是這樣子的交通補助也好以目前來講他的感受還很小因為很少"},{"start":8696.552,"end":8707.785,"text":"市長你同意嗎對不對沒有錯因為現在是相關的這個公車上的這個無障礙的設施對嘛我們的推動不夠"},{"start":8709.765,"end":8715.587,"text":"給力也不夠到位所以你剛剛講到通用計程車我要講你們雖然現在有這個事辦計畫愛接送通用計程車但是事辦到現在4年服務只有在六都而且整體的服務車輛不到500台以全台灣的計程車總數9萬多台有裝設"},{"start":8732.554,"end":8758.747,"text":"這個升降設備的是通用計程車有1200多台那我跟你講比例才0.1%那參加在你這個事辦計畫的愛接送平台的登記的車輛數更是只有405台你看到這個數字你覺得我們提供的這個這個可以服務這些身障者啦老人家啦行動不便者的這樣子的交通需求你看到這個數字你不會覺得很汗顏嗎"},{"start":8760.268,"end":8769.077,"text":"我們在建置這個無障礙的交通環境的情況之下這個數字我真的覺得很不滿意次長你覺得勒"},{"start":8771.323,"end":8791.33,"text":"分開很快來跟委員報告確實這樣的一個提供的服務太少了所以我也跟委員報告因為我們現在也正在嘗試研發有關這個電動的通用計程車所以耳後的這個計程車我們要全部把它台灣的通用意思就是說那個計程車來的時候它就具有通用可以讓輪椅上下"},{"start":8793.01,"end":8798.493,"text":"同用的計程車的成本是遠高於一般的計程車的計時費用我們到屆時會有相關的一個汰換補助計畫另外一個是就現行的i接送的一個服務我們也會有相關的一個改進的做法"},{"start":8810.64,"end":8833.039,"text":"是那這一部分的話我覺得有必要我們跟委員做一個說明提供書面現在的量能不足誘因不足愛接送平台的萎縮所以應該要調整要改進嘛要提高誘因嘛我們建構一個友善的運輸環境大家都好嘛是我們來跟委員做相近的說明好不好那真正的才能夠落實交通平權啦好不好是是是謝謝"},{"start":8834.42,"end":8857.451,"text":"謝謝何欣淳委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言好謝謝主席有請陳次長請次長還有我們公務局陳局長"},{"start":8860.49,"end":8886.06,"text":"委員好市長局長好這我今天要問的問題主要是針對於我們現在因為我看全世界對於電動不管大車小車大家在技術層面是爭先恐後真的是我看很多國家的產品包括很多車廠的產品不管從轎車也好甚至有到大車的部分甚至電動的貨車"},{"start":8888.081,"end":8888.421,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8910.41,"end":8910.931,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8929.324,"end":8950.067,"text":"右邊上方健全制度增加使用的誘因跟下方完善電能補充的基礎設置是不是能先來說一下增加了什麼誘因對於我們這樣的這個所謂的客運的業者公車的業者現在增加了誘因的情況有哪些方向請說明一下"},{"start":8953.091,"end":8965.224,"text":"這個部分大概跟委員這個報告一下就是說進行制度增加使用誘因的部分大概分兩塊第一塊從車輛的一個部分那車輛的部分的話就是提供這個就是電動車的購車的一個補助盡量把這個就是說購買電動車透過補助他的價格跟燃油車的價格這個差不多"},{"start":8973.152,"end":8999.374,"text":"那另外一個部分的話 那個這塊是這個交通部來提供這個公車的補助那另外一塊藉由環保署提供4年160萬的一個這個營運的一個這個補助那另外在地方政府這個部分的話對於這個使用電動公車的費率他基本上是有定一個比較高的一個這個費率然後透過補貼來這個就是說這個使用電動大客車這些客運業者的這個營收會這個比較好"},{"start":9001.476,"end":9001.596,"text":"委員報告．"},{"start":9019.379,"end":9035.376,"text":"就大家使用電動公車的一個這個部分的話大概有三大的一個這個面向第一個部分相關的能耗跟保養成本相對低那第二個部分的話大概使用這些相關這個電動車的路線基本上運量都有這個增加"},{"start":9035.976,"end":9063.929,"text":"好 謝謝市長那現在一台電動客運這個大車要多少錢市場價委員報告一下目前這個電動大客車的一個這個價格的部分的話大概980到1050大概你做市長做幾年跟委員報告大概兩年多兩年多嗎那我們市長過去很早就在公路總局那你五年前一台多少錢"},{"start":9067.185,"end":9069.652,"text":"也差不多這個價錢大概5年前的話大概是1200萬1200萬那10年前勒"},{"start":9076.962,"end":9100.449,"text":"委員報告一下 國內開始推電動 大概是民國90年你預估大概幾年的時候 這個補助其實不用電車的一輛他會直接跟油車很接近 你們有沒有這個預估我現在已經看到了 你們媒體大概也看到了在轎車的部分 那嚇死人了那特斯拉都不知道怎麼辦 因為很多國家的發展"},{"start":9101.673,"end":9129.213,"text":"品質性能一樣的可能只要特斯拉三分之一的電車價錢所以這個一個趨勢我是覺得怎麼樣去推動讓我們所有的一個業者來使用的方便性我看到你們2030年定的一個目標我自己覺得顯然是碰到一些的困難那因為從2020年你們預定的目標是937這個是你們累計的希望的目標數一直上面"},{"start":9130.114,"end":9130.534,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9154.952,"end":9161.761,"text":"有沒有信心因為現在看這樣的2023年的目標2023年目標距離還是蠻大的所以未來會你們預估會快速成長是不是這樣的是跟我們報告對於這個就是2030年達到11700這一個有沒有信心啊我們有信心 審慎樂觀"},{"start":9174.196,"end":9198.459,"text":"那今年大概就是這個縫隙大概1300輛的部分其實大概公總到現在已經合定將近1200萬的1200輛的一個這個數量了那後面我跟委員報告大概就是說去年跟今年之間其實是有部分業者在做這一個觀望"},{"start":9198.979,"end":9216.301,"text":"那一些相關這個技術層面還有車輛使用層面部分其實透過這個幾次的溝通之後大家﹖老師長這樣啦因為時間也不太夠那我們那個公路局陳局長你也在這裡你樂觀其實我是真的非常不樂觀因為現在我們所有的客運公車業者"},{"start":9218.069,"end":9218.269,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9246.716,"end":9271.892,"text":"第一期第二代的一個車輛事實上它的這個電池衰退的時間比預期的快很多那當然最後一個就是充電站充電站有一些問題我覺得你這個充電的一個場域現在在過去市區公車來講他們為了發車方便在市區通常是比較精華區他都有他的停車場"},{"start":9272.833,"end":9273.513,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9292.538,"end":9314.398,"text":"往外移 有些移得很遠 有些要進場大概就10公里 15公里 反而20公里所以他們的一個反應是 如果 像我們現在桃園客運來講他要買電車 他來跟我澄清 可是他現在市區最大一塊停車場 因為要做社宅他不知道怎麼辦 要是不是要到新屋觀音他說進來可能電就用到三分之一 像這樣的一個"},{"start":9316.5,"end":9326.531,"text":"問題你們有沒有來去幫忙協助啊市長你說一下好不好這個部分他們現在電車如果他的場域很遠這個會遇到這樣的一個問題你們有沒有聽到他們的一個反應"},{"start":9330.776,"end":9358.556,"text":"市長跟委員報告在一開始的時候推的時候是有這樣的尤其像當時在台北市有幾個地方有這個問題但是剛才我已經說明過了有關充電的台電的電量的這樣的一個補充的系統其實我們第一個有要求公路局跟台電要有一個對應的窗口那另外也要求地方政府要協助幫業者去找相關的一個地那其實也有這樣的一個"},{"start":9358.976,"end":9373.095,"text":"你剛剛講的後面這個,這是重點啦,這真的啦,真的你們不幫忙他,包括有一重化區如果長期沒有用的,你們真的不幫忙這些業者,他真的是活不下去啦,你好歹一個位置要停,最後啦,不耽誤時間啦"},{"start":9374.136,"end":9395.814,"text":"台電充電站要現在設立我們現在每次接到台電的曾經還真的越來越多就是他一個規劃設計就耗費可能半年一年那有一些地方他們要設這個充電站這個時間會拖得很久我要拜託你交通部在這個領域要跟我們經濟部他們來做一個協調"},{"start":9396.895,"end":9397.275,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請次長請次長"},{"start":9432.716,"end":9459.446,"text":"市長早安今天我們是針對這個公路的道路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形來進行詢討那我們也知道就是有關這個道路及橋梁的安全就是會影響到用路人還有駕駛人的這個交通安全那我們知道這個交通部也宣誓說這個2050年要達到這個交通零死亡這樣子的一個政策目標"},{"start":9460.386,"end":9482.944,"text":"那我在這邊先就這個部分請教市長因為我們看最近這5年來就是就這個道路交通的事故的人數跟件數都沒有這個明顯的一個下降的一個趨勢所以就這個未來2050年這個交通臨死亡價值的政策目標我們有什麼策略有什麼做法"},{"start":9486.685,"end":9507.548,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們去年已經有通過了那個就是一些相關的政策那今年也通過道路交通安全基本法還有綱要計畫那內政部今年也通過了行電交通安全設施條例所以基本上我們現在會根據這個綱要計畫還有這個設施條例去從工程教育監理"},{"start":9508.089,"end":9536.602,"text":"跟執法面向去推動各項的工作那我們現在涉及設計的目標就是今年能夠比去年至少減少5%這樣目標來定定那這個法規法令跟實際面可能還是會有一些落差那我們也希望就是說我們交通部在這個部分要有一些更精準的一些做法那本席有看到就是說我們交通部有建置一個"},{"start":9537.162,"end":9550.851,"text":"道路交通安全資料整合與分析平台這個次長您知道嗎對我們有這個平台我們也有個道安資訊查詢網有可以供各界來查詢相關的一些道安的資訊"},{"start":9552.31,"end":9580.415,"text":"對 那就這個資訊裡面當然就是主要就是針對這個事故的一些背景分析就是包括肇事原因還有駕駛人的這個資格包括年齡性別等等還有這個事故違規的排行跟熱區分析那其實我們也看到就是說就韓國他就這個部分的分析他做得更細就是說針對這個交通事故發生的區域"},{"start":9581.135,"end":9600.738,"text":"整個的這個背景資料他有做一些精確的一個統計跟分析就是一個大數據的分析就是說包括這個道路的寬度或者是說他位在位處的這個區域是住宅區還是什麼區他都會做更細緻的一些分析我們這部分好像沒有做到這樣子"},{"start":9601.798,"end":9629.9,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們的後台資料的資訊更多當然就是說這個不是每個都開放給所有的人使用但比如我們相關主管單位或縣政府他可以進入這個平台針對他的需要去做分析比如說他是發生在村裡道路呢還是在我們的平台裡面可以做分析也跟委員我們現在也有參考一些國外的一些的平台的顯示的方式跟內容進行相關的一個修正"},{"start":9631.421,"end":9652.262,"text":"我跟委員再報告一下就是剛才委員特別提到的那個相關的資料其實現在我們運營所也好或者是內政部國土署也好對於這樣的事故的都會採用這個事故的碰撞構圖去做分析在那個構圖的一個平台上他就會有建立剛才委員特別提到的這樣的一個基本的資料在裡面"},{"start":9653.022,"end":9671.162,"text":"對,那就是說事實上這個這樣子的分析若說可以就這個違規或者是說事故的一個熱區的分析來分析他的事故發生的一些地理環境背景資料然後我們再來予以做這個交通的一個改善我想這個應該是會更細緻的一些作為"},{"start":9675.366,"end":9696.394,"text":"因為我們知道最近兩年我們就是非常的關心有關這個行人安全還有這個道路安全的一個議題那其實事實上在地方上我們也發現就是說很多道路可能是道路那個路面寬度不足道路狹窄或者是說彎度過彎或者是說這個路口"},{"start":9699.835,"end":9699.855,"text":"．述"},{"start":9717.194,"end":9736.714,"text":"會有問題有時候就是找不到經費來源因為我們中央可以補助的可能就是生活圈道路或者是計畫都外的計畫道路然後營建署當然就是都內的道路那縣政府他可能就是針對他的這個縣道可是有一些道路他就找不到可以"},{"start":9737.395,"end":9761.648,"text":"找這個裁員的地方所以我們也很高興就是說看到在這兩年我們關注這個議題之後我們交通部這邊也有針對都市計畫區外非公路系統道路改善計畫有編列的這個預算這是今年度的預算那就這個部分市長你了解嗎這個計畫目前的辦理情形如何"},{"start":9762.788,"end":9778.18,"text":"是,就誠如這個委員所說的確實就是說像內政部跟交通部都有相關的補助的範圍那確實像都外的這個沒有編號的這種非公路系統的話之前其實都是地方政府自己要找經費去這個做處理"},{"start":9779.941,"end":9797.731,"text":"行政院這一次特別就是說在今年也編了15億讓我們就是說來做這個相關的這個協助地方處理那現在他們已經案子有送相關計畫來我們這邊做申請了那我們大概在這個應該在這個最快我想這個月或下個月我們都會相關的核定"},{"start":9798.791,"end":9806.733,"text":"因為很多的道路事實上可能就是屬於鄉鎮公所層級的所以對鄉鎮公所他們財源更加的拮据那要跟彰化縣政府爭取經費有時候又很困難所以就這個部分我們也是很期待說我們中央的部分可以針對需要改善的路段給予經費的補助"},{"start":9823.417,"end":9841.302,"text":"可是就我目前接到的一個訊息因為在我的地方我們也關注很多的這個路段真的確實是這個道路才4公尺寬可是是位在這個就是三個相界的一個交通要道因為很多從郊遊道下來的可能就是會走這個路線"},{"start":9843.423,"end":9857.095,"text":"趙成說車流量很高可是道路缺寬度不足我們覺得說這個是真的需要改善可是就目前我們接到訊息是我們提報的計畫時間實在太短了他們根本來不及報"},{"start":9858.888,"end":9879.504,"text":"我們目前我們看到的公文我們是3月15我們公路總局就是有這個公文給地方的政府可是要求在4月15號之前就要報到我們中央來那目前我們地方給我的反應的這個訊息就是說根本來不及報那我不曉得說今年度這樣子還來得及嗎"},{"start":9881.927,"end":9904.783,"text":"委員如果說因為當初其實是大概給這個地方政府其實兩個月時間4月多是先報到我們當地啦當地的那個這個我們的公務段養物分局他做相關審核後就是再報來我們這邊那我想如果說真的地方政府還有這樣子的需求的話是不是就是說報來我們會盡量因為大概還是要排相關的優先順序"},{"start":9906.124,"end":9929.351,"text":"是,好,因為我們希望就是說因為經費我們看起來也不是很多因為我們今年都是編了10億嘛那不曉得說明年度還會不會有那就是說就這樣子有限的經費我們也希望就是說可以真的就是要用在刀口上針對真的確實重要需要的地方來進行改善讓地方的交通更安全好,謝謝"},{"start":9930.829,"end":9937.775,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝陳書悅委員 發言完畢我們現在處理臨時提案本日既有一案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":9942.917,"end":9969.409,"text":"臺中市臺縣大甲溪橋和大安溪橋市海縣區居民來往清水大甲等地必經之路然而大甲溪橋和大安溪橋的橋林均已相當老舊過境老化公路局目前先以省道改善計劃經費辦理設計作業預計於明114年完成設計出入建設總經費將超過70億元為兼顧大甲溪橋和大安溪橋之建設"},{"start":9970.089,"end":9985.003,"text":"避免排擠,全國省道公路系統之修繕,安全提升經費,建請交通部應將排中市台一線大甲溪橋和大安溪橋改建工程經費,以專款專用方式辦理提案人委員蔡啟昌等。"},{"start":9987.472,"end":10013.952,"text":"好 我們先請交通部來做說明是 就是在這個提案的最後一行就是以專款專用那專款專用這四個字刪除是修正為專案申請計劃經費或寬列省道改善計劃經費額度那這個修正的話已經獲得這個提案委員的同意以上就報告各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":10015.014,"end":10024.422,"text":"好那沒有意見我們就修正通過臨時提案處理完畢如果有委員就上述提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":10042.574,"end":10049.957,"text":"我們接著請李坤澤召會發言謝謝徐烏奎委員﹖請陳次長﹖陳偶樂局長﹖趙新華局長有請次長跟局長"},{"start":10058.88,"end":10079.109,"text":"市長 局長好 我們這個會期其實在0403地震之前我們在交通委員會我們就召開了相關的不管是長隧道相關的這些防震防災的相關的實地的考察或者是相關國家級警報相關的這些專題的報告"},{"start":10080.41,"end":10106.503,"text":"然後我們也看到這個0403的大地震之後其實它的餘震也是不斷那我們對於交通系統的安全我們必須要時時刻刻在還沒有發生之前我們就要做好預防發生之後也要確實來檢討是否有相關的整體交通系統的緩緩的這樣的一個措施或者是整體的這個程序有沒有問題來必須做一個檢討那我們"},{"start":10109.173,"end":10129.795,"text":"4月份發生的這樣的一個余震就有1396次那顯著的有感地震達到348個小區域的地震有1048個那地震的次數我們以對比去年的4月來講是增加了26倍增加了26倍"},{"start":10132.202,"end":10140.088,"text":"國家級情報在2023年總共發布了13次到今年到現在為止已經發布了60次"},{"start":10141.547,"end":10165.956,"text":"那我們對於相關的這些落實造成的重大災害我們來看大地震0403蘇花公路的大清水地段也發生了大規模的崩塌也造成一死一傷的這樣的不幸的事故那我們看到公路兩側發生這樣一個落實自殺的這樣的一個案件"},{"start":10167.438,"end":10173.897,"text":"2011年有11次2023年有4次今年到目前有幾次請說明一下"},{"start":10176.942,"end":10177.682,"text":"臺九縣 臺八縣東段 西段"},{"start":10198.869,"end":10211.825,"text":"主段部分,像台九縣的蘇化公路,4天就搶通小客車通行,其他落實的清理也是在4月6日都已經清理完"},{"start":10216.29,"end":10242.13,"text":"大概幾個地方都已經清理完畢了大概有幾個地方有這樣一個台九縣的話就是我們現在就是說這一個有六處重要的落石的邊坡其中就是一處就是下清水橋另外五處的邊坡原則上在今年年底也全部都能夠改善完成局長、次長我們之前我一直要求"},{"start":10243.976,"end":10259.847,"text":"交通部針對公路總局相關的單位我們要設置落實的告警系統這個落實告警系統目前總共完成了16個地方落實的這樣的一個警示也總共有達到39次"},{"start":10261.348,"end":10280.898,"text":"那當然這些相關的狀況我們必須要更精進的掌握當然我們對於邊坡的分級管理有運用遙測的技術也定量的分級來管理也導入科技的巡檢那最重要我們要推動落實的這種告警的系統"},{"start":10281.698,"end":10297.87,"text":"那我們現在看看我們的這個邊坡的統計當然是分成A B C DA B都是屬於比較高風險的這樣的一個級別那A級我們今年3月21有做統計A級有273處B級有43處那我請教一下"},{"start":10303.806,"end":10329.46,"text":"零四零三大地震之後這些邊級的這樣的一個狀況有變動嗎?或是有增加?是根本報告會變動不過就是說因為就是說整個這個包括A級跟B級的定義的話就是說這一個包括這個兩年內有落實然後能不能把它這個落實的源頭做相關的處理那防護的措施是什麼?所以就是說還有就是說它的邊坡是不是還是不穩定"},{"start":10330.06,"end":10330.18,"text":"主席"},{"start":10348.3,"end":10350.083,"text":"分級沒有問題,現在只是說有一些的邊坡要把它滾動,滾進來可能會變成A級跟B級這樣子"},{"start":10364.941,"end":10381.821,"text":"對我的意思就是這樣就是7月份當然ABCD這四級它有一個明確的定義這個不會變動我講的是說A B級的例如說原本的A級有273處B級有43處那經過大地震之後有沒有增加或是怎樣的一個狀況"},{"start":10383.569,"end":10409.771,"text":"會會增加阿所以目前正在做現在明確的數目呢跟各位報告因為目前其實因為就是說他在做做相關的一個這一個處理還在做處理當中這個要趕快明確啦那我們工作局應該盡速的對邊坡來做相關的巡檢那盤查這些危險邊坡的數量要明確並要加強的管理那也要擴大邊路相關的預算我們要增加告警系統的"},{"start":10410.792,"end":10429.391,"text":"這樣的一個監測範圍因為在過去我們有明確的偵測到39次的這樣一個落實的事件也一定發揮它保障人民旅客的這種生命財產的安全那我們這些例如我們症候防災辦理橋梁的特別巡檢跟耐震補強這個部分"},{"start":10430.672,"end":10448.661,"text":"那當然我們在2009年有明訂一個公路橋梁耐震評估及補強的準則那當時國內有607座橋梁也進行耐震的補強這個都已經完成了嘛告一段落了那我們2021年的3月又推出一個新的公路橋梁耐震評估及補強設施的設計的規範那有1970"},{"start":10454.965,"end":10468.217,"text":"1號97座的這種單跨橋梁的支撐防弱需要進行評估那有1487座多跨橋梁應進行耐震初步評估那目前的這些檢測橋梁的頻率來說明一下"},{"start":10470.697,"end":10496.071,"text":"公務員報告就是新的這個110年之後新的這個耐震評估跟補強設計規範之後確實就是說我像我們公路局的話自己省到的相關的橋梁去做相關的一個一個做處理那最後其實是510除了這個上面所提到的我們還有519座還做特別的檢測那這些部分的話其實有需要做補強的部分我們都會編預算來做補強"},{"start":10496.571,"end":10517.808,"text":"當然我們的檢測有分成三種有定期的檢測然後有特別的檢測還有詳細的檢測定期的檢測我們大概是兩年做一個檢測是不是規範兩年不過像我們像跨河橋梁的部分的話其實我們大概每年都會做特別的檢測就是發生重大的這些災害"},{"start":10518.689,"end":10544.168,"text":"那我們04、03之後我們有針對橋梁去做特別的這樣的一個檢測有04、03之後的話它的正區範圍裡面我們需要檢測的特別檢測的有205座那依照規範14天內特別檢測都要完成所以原則上現在的規範其實比如說該修的我們修了沒有太大問題現在只剩下就是下清水橋就是這一個正在做的5月底要通行大廠"},{"start":10544.488,"end":10565.733,"text":"這些橋梁的安全必須要負起最大的責任每座橋梁都關係到人民的這樣的一個生命的安全的保障那最後我有幾個建議就是說我們的橋梁管理系統我看好像只是為了各系統維護及管理上的一種上傳的資料庫而已那我認為應該建立"},{"start":10566.613,"end":10567.873,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,原則上橋梁管理系統在這個"},{"start":10584.599,"end":10586.78,"text":"提到是屬於運營所是屬於相關檢測完資料的一個會診所以這是大概有這樣兩個層級的不同那你層級的不同你必須"},{"start":10607.148,"end":10607.408,"text":"好 是是是"},{"start":10638.697,"end":10648.003,"text":"好 現在請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席 有請次長跟公路局長請次長跟陳局長"},{"start":10655.288,"end":10668.079,"text":"市長跟局長好我想之前幾位委員都有提到這個0403地震的問題那就本期的選區是我們屏東縣那屏東縣我們總共33個鄉鎮市我們的橋梁數量高達1187座尤其很多都是對外聯繫的一個橋梁"},{"start":10679.75,"end":10692.017,"text":"超過40年以上的老舊橋梁超過大概50座我想請教一下我們交通部目前針對橋梁維修跟檢測的經費跟運作的模式是怎麼處理"},{"start":10693.809,"end":10708.054,"text":"是跟委員報告就是說現在其實就是要求是全國各縣市政府所管理的橋梁的話第一個一定要做全面的檢測所以檢測率其實現在已經接近百分之百了那檢測之後的話如果說有狀況的話要維修"},{"start":10709.855,"end":10733.056,"text":"那維修的話之前的話就是說比如說維修只有百分之七十幾那所以我們覺得說不足的有些縣市沒有做到維修到百分之百的其實我們都有做相關的一個要求跟督導那目前的話包括經費的話如果需要協助的話像我們公路局跟內政部其實有一個生活圈的道路計劃經費可以協助地方政府來他們來申請我們來協助"},{"start":10735.338,"end":10755.61,"text":"市長局長,現在是這樣子,就是因為我們交通部有要求我們的地方政府每兩年要進行一次橋梁的檢測那這個檢測不是只有看這個安全性,它有很多的項目,包含所謂一個耐震的部分,一個承載力的部分,還有一些的所謂的一個安全性的考量的部分"},{"start":10756.01,"end":10782.082,"text":"那這些項目都非常的專業那所需要的經費也非常的多那既然交通部要求我們每兩年進行一次那其實像以屏東縣政府來講我們的公務處他為了安全考量起見他基本上我們是每年都會做一次的檢測那既然交通部有建立了所謂一個檢測的一個KPI但是好像經費上並沒有針對縣市政府來做補助這部分是不是可以來說明一下"},{"start":10784.069,"end":10801.801,"text":"局長在說明原則上檢測的費用大概都是由地方政府的養父的或是棄燃費的經費來做支應而且相關的經費來講是由分配上來棄燃費來做處理那真正比較多的錢是維修"},{"start":10802.722,"end":10826.149,"text":"所以那部分我們有編有相關的預算在做這個我還是要再提醒一下因為畢竟這個非六都跟六都的財源這個截然不同尤其屏東縣政府我們是被列為第五級這個財政非常的困窘那以我本席調查的資料我們一年屏東縣政府光是橋梁檢測的費用就要高達3700萬以上"},{"start":10827.99,"end":10855.271,"text":"那檢測完之後維修跟改建的預算至少一年要預估大概要兩億元左右那我想依屏東縣政府的財力根本沒辦法負擔這筆費用那我們目前聽到的訊息是說這個我們申請的一個次數跟所謂的一個頻率並沒有一個固定的一個時程來安排那這部分是不是有辦法來做一個改善"},{"start":10857.943,"end":10878.299,"text":"我可以跟委員說明一下原則上剛才我特別提到檢測的費用大概是在分配的棄燃費裡頭那屏東縣政府大概每年棄燃費要如何支應會報到部裡頭來那我們再來檢視看看如果他在編列上真的是不足或者是有困難或是相關維修的經費我們看一看會給你一些資訊你都叫人家補補你若不要請給我們我們都不可以"},{"start":10885.604,"end":10886.986,"text":"我們來研究看看好不好"},{"start":10910.728,"end":10912.41,"text":"所以說才說後續的維修的要檢測那維修的費用我們來支持是"},{"start":10931.382,"end":10933.285,"text":"市長本來在這邊質詢就是要求交通部要給我一個答案"},{"start":10943.897,"end":10966.805,"text":"我們看怎麼樣來協助屏東縣政府像現在就是說其實有一些地方這個政府就是說他在檢測出來比較急迫要改善就是U大1等於3的那個部分其實我們已經有受理提報了這一個就是25件那基本上"},{"start":10967.685,"end":10994.778,"text":"這一個我們只要就是說需要的話我們一路續會核定現在已經核定了9件了所以我們再查一下屏東縣政府是不是有提報好不好如果說有這個需求的話我們會盡量給予協助的是啦本席特別強烈在提醒說因為像我們的比如說像以前豐原大橋一段橋那個恆春坡都變孤島效應了真的沒辦法出去了唯一的通路嘛這個我想交通部都很清楚啦我們還是要重視這個橋梁安全的問題"},{"start":10995.999,"end":11015.172,"text":"那另外針對最近一個我們這個年輕朋友比較關心的就是所謂的一個外送平台的一個合併的問題那因為根據本期來瞭解今年第一季事故的比例大概有300多件那我們交通部針對這個外送員的部分的安全考量有沒有做什麼樣的因應對策"},{"start":11018.41,"end":11035.459,"text":"動員的安全其實我們在這個交通安全上我們也非常的重視所以也變成是我們列管要改進所以我們有訂定相關的一個安全指引來供這個像Uber Eats或Foodpanda他們要來復啟相關的一個安全的管理的一個事項"},{"start":11036.019,"end":11054.273,"text":"所以在這裡可以看到相關的這個事故的件數是有減少的一個趨勢當然還不勝滿意所以我們會繼續來要求地方政府以我們公務監理機關來督導這個相關的這個外送業者如何來降低他的交通安全"},{"start":11055.374,"end":11081.265,"text":"我想我們目前了解大概全國一年我們有7000件的一個外送事故那當然最大的原因應該是屬於一個所謂的一個報酬制度造成一個趕監的一個行為但是我們整個一個用路的環境每次看到我們的外送員在我們車站中穿梭在走真的是膽戰心驚所以我們交通部要如何壓整頓一下這個環境還是我們要共同來努力"},{"start":11083.018,"end":11093.014,"text":"那最後一個問題就是我想前幾天有發生過我們這個鄉親搭乘這個普悠瑪之間出現這個小牆的事件針對這部分臺鐵怎麼樣來改善這個環境"},{"start":11098.174,"end":11112.932,"text":"報告委員我們這一件發現後已經立即要求我們的廠商還有我們同仁加強我們這個放藥還有這個清潔的工作另外一個就是還是再提醒一下台挺上次我們在質詢的時候有特別提到這個漲價的議題"},{"start":11114.634,"end":11129.3,"text":"如果說我們的介紹跟高鐵差不多,我相信台鐵就要吃辣辣,大家都要坐高鐵,沒有人要坐台鐵,這部分還是要請台鐵研議一下,針對我們通勤組還有我們大眾運輸的部分,怎麼樣做一個橫頻的考量。"},{"start":11131.467,"end":11147.918,"text":"我們會先以安全還有服務提升為主那下半年依照立法院先前公示的一些這個規定我們再來依規定依程序來辦理相關方案的檢討好謝謝希望台鐵也要加油了謝謝好習武奎委員發言完畢現在請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":11174.155,"end":11189.61,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我今天要詢問的是我們監理站還有橋梁的問題那我先請我們陳次長陳次長以及公路局陳局長好 次長 局長"},{"start":11191.837,"end":11212.752,"text":"我想請教一下以現行的我們監理站這個報考機車考照的部分一味難求的部分我想請教就是在其他縣市我不曉得在宜蘭縣的話常常是這個名額限制的原因導致我們這些年輕人要報考的時候"},{"start":11213.092,"end":11240.319,"text":"一味難求那這個部分我想請教一下因為聽起來好像每次所開放的名額大概是在40到50名那可是好像有一部分是跟這個駕訓班來做配合所以在名額開放的當下可能只剩下少數的名額常常導致這種秒殺的情況那對於這個部分我們這個監理站部分有沒有什麼因應的措施或是能夠增加員額"},{"start":11241.301,"end":11243.212,"text":"讓我們年輕學子要考照的時候不會這麼困難"},{"start":11245.329,"end":11273.708,"text":"跟各位報告因為現在考照就是說他我們現在還是要預約因為他就是畢竟就是說能夠知道說每天大概有多少的這一個我們的年輕朋友要去考照那家訓班因為也有也有考照的所以兩邊都有相關的一個這一個量那而且現在就是說考照的話基本上我其實我們會設定一些門檻包括就是說你要到網路上面因為我們希望就是說不是只拿到駕照他要安全要很重要"},{"start":11273.988,"end":11298.289,"text":"所以他要確認就是說我們有一個那個危險感知的一個教育的平台他要去完成之後才能夠去預約那基本上預約的話就是說大概因為每天的考照他有一個數量的一個限制他因為不然的話就是說他的一個考照的一個品質也沒辦法去維持那我們其實我們會去看就是包括就是說譬如說預約的量齁如果說要排到齁我們有有去要求齁"},{"start":11298.809,"end":11298.829,"text":"局長"},{"start":11325.73,"end":11339.924,"text":"就宜蘭的監理站來講我請我們這個公路局這邊是不是可以針對元額部分在我們所排定要做這個考駕照的當下元額可不可以增加就這樣"},{"start":11340.384,"end":11343.045,"text":"機車駕訓的部分能否進入校園來做訓練還有這個考照的部分"},{"start":11363.292,"end":11378.259,"text":"他原則上因為訓練要有場地那現在就是說有些訓練的部分其實我們還就是要求駕訓班其實要慢慢的要走出去道路上面實質不能說只有在場地內大家很多就是說這個道路上面的應變"},{"start":11379.139,"end":11406.924,"text":"所以學校齁其實我們是跟學校合作就是說學校把這個有這個要考照的那個學生的需求那報來那我們找家訓班一起來做處理那有一些部分的話比如說學科啦學科的這一個比如說這個上課可以利用學校的可以那可是因為數科的部分有些是要有場地或者是要到路外去希望說我們公路局跟一些這種高中子以上的學校來做一個合作"},{"start":11407.484,"end":11426.365,"text":"因為現在學子他要考照之前可能在這個前期要先去做訓練那在宜蘭的話目前這個在數據上是有兩個訓練場地除了我們監理站以外有兩個訓練場地可是實質上只有一個是在高速公路的橋下只有一個在西北"},{"start":11427.006,"end":11450.388,"text":"那訓練的情況也導致這個民眾這個年輕的這個學子他要去訓練的時候沒有辦法很方便所以我也希望說我們可以把訓練場地跟學校來配合是不是可以在宜蘭的一個這個高中子去找尋適當的位置去做訓練場地那也可以讓他們在那邊訓練之後可以一併在那邊考照這個部分"},{"start":11453.182,"end":11473.591,"text":"還是我 我跟委員報告因為就是說自己在那個比如說這個橋下啦河邊畫的那個那個就是我們考照的那個就是說那些標線的話其實只是練技術了那練技術其實對於就是說對於這個我們年輕學子其實我們現在的道安的統計年輕學子其實拿到駕照後的事故率真的非常高"},{"start":11474.071,"end":11503.033,"text":"其實我們要跟學校合作的是要灌輸他們就是說不是只有技術交通安全的不是只有技術這個拿到駕照應該要對交通安全的防禦駕駛觀念實務的這個所以其實我們是多鼓勵大家其實應該要花點時間去這個比如說上一些學科啦或是在這個安全的一個防禦駕駛在駕訓班多一些養成的一個那拿到駕照後會更安全因為事故例跟違規例上過駕訓班真的差很大"},{"start":11504.094,"end":11531.326,"text":"好那這部分還是請我們公路局這邊這個更加用心能夠增加這個補導那另外就是這個偏鄉偏鄉我們現在目前這個數位行動監理車的部分推動的情況之前在宜蘭南澳推動的情況還算不錯我也希望延續繼續辦理那另外還有一個就請我們公路局是不是可以會後給我一份資料"},{"start":11532.711,"end":11559.26,"text":"宜蘭縣的這個四縱六橫其中有一橫是這個二節聯絡道聯絡道他現在目前碰到的一個瓶頸是剛好那個點剛好碰到是宜蘭監理站所以沒辦法往西延伸所以這個部分我是不是請這個局長還是我們交通部這邊對於這個部分目前所碰到的瓶頸跟後續要推動的期程是怎樣可不可以後續那個會後給我一份詳細的資料好以上謝謝"},{"start":11562.281,"end":11568.507,"text":"好,謝謝陳俊宇委員：發言完畢。感謝幹部長是完本的中心職場對面。好,現在請嚴匡衡委員發言。"},{"start":11586.776,"end":11592.843,"text":"主席各位列席官員主席我想請我們交通部陳政次陳次長"},{"start":11598.883,"end":11617.292,"text":"委員好市長好市長我本期的選區在那個大肚烏日榮景這一部分那目前從大肚這邊到一直跨越烏溪然後到這個彰化的河美"},{"start":11618.112,"end":11632.383,"text":"河美交流道省道台61乙線就是美港公路這個部分河美大橋已經在興建當中1690公尺 寬22公尺 總經費32億由台中市跟帳化縣府共同出資 中央補助興建"},{"start":11644.711,"end":11671.643,"text":"是近年來以台中市跟彰化來講規模最大的橋梁工程從興建之前兩地要往返必須要超過半個小時的時間這條橋如果興建完成之後只要兩分鐘所以預計在2026年的7月完工這也是過去在擔任立委的期間一直努力爭取的一個重要建設"},{"start":11672.503,"end":11686.592,"text":"那我在今年的年初也有跟台中市府到現場去會館那現在進度有超前那我想要請教市長你可不可以告訴我目前和平大橋的進度的狀況"},{"start":11689.956,"end":11710.871,"text":"跟我們報告,因為這個河美大橋,就是臺中市政府跟彰化縣政府兩地有出資,那我們交通部的話是補助彰化縣,那因為整個的工程的這個施作是由臺中市政府,那目前的話我們了解是應該是進度是正常,那這個部分我們是不是再確認一下這個臺中市政府的整個的一個施作進度?"},{"start":11711.852,"end":11730.043,"text":"那未來就是說河美大橋可以作為大渡地區跟臺中港區的連外道路那藉由河美大橋往這個河美交流道那下來就是跟我們的這個美港公路臺61乙線做一個銜接那行政院已經核定臺61乙線高價化全長6.35公里167億由中央來負擔依據2034年完工"},{"start":11740.691,"end":11741.052,"text":"橫幅大橋預計在"},{"start":11743.257,"end":11770.748,"text":"一百一十五年一百一十五年通車那所以這個南彰化端的部分已經有就是說已經算是有解決這個未來的一個路網的問題但是在北端就是在大渡這一邊在大渡這一邊文昌路銜接這個呼安路然後一直往台中港這個部分我想要請教那這個交通部這一邊有沒有做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":11773.849,"end":11796.957,"text":"台中地區的這一邊因為它是屬於就是市區道路那基本上就是市區道路的話就是說大概市政府然後有需要的話大概會爭取到這個內政部的生活圈道路來協助那另外一邊確實在交通部這邊的話才是公路系統的這邊就是銜接這個台611的美港公路這一塊的話我們公路局在處理"},{"start":11798.533,"end":11825.942,"text":"我們都知道工程越晚做越貴就像我剛剛提到這個海美交流道從2013年2013年的時候提案的時候預算是24.6億到108年核定的時候變成32億變成32億那我們剛剛都提到說這個台中市這一邊的話是應該要生活圈都是計劃內的部分生活圈的部分"},{"start":11826.662,"end":11846.293,"text":"那所以我們生活圈4號線跟這個就非常相關了就是說從烏日的高鐵特區藉由從慶思縣延伸到榮景的這個台61線西濱然後可以做一個這個高架道路的一個銜接那透過"},{"start":11847.513,"end":11859.666,"text":"臥日的環河路穿越王田交流道然後呢一路都沿著這個護岸護岸堤防來做興建那其實在2020年的時候環平就已經通過了總長15.4公里那預計開闢所需要的總經費打274億"},{"start":11869.356,"end":11872.478,"text":"本期都希望中央能夠給予地方最大支持可不可以"},{"start":11896.005,"end":11913.175,"text":"剛才委員特別提到,他正在做相關的一個可行性的研究,如果研究出來,後續如果相關建設計畫在那個,我想我們看內政部如何來就這個工程的經費,看怎麼樣來予以協助。"},{"start":11914.756,"end":11931.356,"text":"中央一定我認為的中央就是要給地方政府大力的協助才有可能把這個交通路網做一個全面現在整個台中市的生活圈道路不管是中環大環銜接國道3國道4國道1還有74 61整個路網的建置就是"},{"start":11934.6,"end":11935.02,"text":"現在請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":11960.953,"end":11965.515,"text":"好謝謝主席我請交通部陳次長請陳次長還有鐵道局楊局長請楊局長委員好市長好是"},{"start":11977.539,"end":11993.475,"text":"市長好 局長好大概在兩個禮拜之前我也在我們交通委員會質詢就是有關於我們臺灣高鐵他們在整個的這個變電站的保養的過程裡面出現了重大的公安問題"},{"start":11994.716,"end":12019.732,"text":"因為當時呢他們沒有按照SOP所以呢在整個的過程裡面他沒有先停就是先斷電而造成另外一個另外一組公班帶有6個人他們當時呢如果這個這個公班6個人他們沒有按照SOP來做的話非常有可能在這個高壓電之下這6個人會成為烤肉串"},{"start":12021.073,"end":12050.453,"text":"那那個時候呢其實當時勞動部呢立刻的就說他們要介入調查因為是重大公安問題我也提醒交通部要注意臺灣高鐵最近所發生的別說他的紀律問題他的列車長就是沒有接受酒測然後就還是去執勤然後包含這樣的一個公安問題而這個事情呢就是在我們披露之後我跟油耗委員披露之後"},{"start":12052.034,"end":12056.677,"text":"台灣高鐵還發新聞稿說他們都有按照SOP而且強調他們都有檢討而且說人員沒有受傷這個是在5月1號我們召開記者會以及我跟油耗委員都在我們委員會去質詢之後那麼高鐵他只是部分成員他有部分的他事實上是沒有說實話"},{"start":12077.438,"end":12078.679,"text":"4月30日 董事長在主持的會議裏面還特別說要檢討未來要按照SOP這個聲音剛剛落下我要告訴交通部還有鐵道局的事"},{"start":12096.923,"end":12111.235,"text":"高鐵又出事了又出現公安意外而這次同樣的也是沒有依照程序而這次呢出現了人員受傷的情形"},{"start":12112.273,"end":12130.027,"text":"人員受傷還好啦我們後來了解不是非常嚴重這是不幸中的大幸他同樣的他因斷電而沒有斷電應該去斷電他沒有斷電結果呢造成也是一樣施工人員其實有被電擊受傷了那我剛才講"},{"start":12135.27,"end":12157.863,"text":"那個事件前面一個事件是發生在4月9號4月初因為他們知道他們有跟包含其實有跟交通部還有包含跟立法委員來爆料之後那麼高鐵才趕快在4月30號才由董事長來召開他們的一個週報的會議他們有個會議才來做檢討"},{"start":12162.659,"end":12182.913,"text":"然後對外講說沒有問題我都按照SOP結果這個事件發生在5月11號看到沒有這麼接近又出現公安意外所以部長還是局長來能幫我回答高鐵出了什麼事情你們會怎麼樣的去監督高鐵"},{"start":12187.157,"end":12215.988,"text":"跟委員報告那上次在委員召開記者會之後我們在隔天5月3號立刻以鐵路法就台灣高鐵公司進行相關的檢查作業那上一次的這樣子的一個物質變電站的這樣的一個作業疏失我們查他們確實是有相關作業程序上必須要再做一些檢討的地方所以我們已經提出來按照檢查的結果要求他就相關的作業程序書還有控款機制來做一些改善"},{"start":12216.408,"end":12220.872,"text":"5月11號的事情你們知道嗎跟委員報告我們沒有接獲通報沒有接獲通報所以你看5月11號到今天已經幾號了4月9號才發生這個事情如果不是我們召開記者會我們質詢你們也不知道你們去調查之後才發現確有疏失結果5月11號我現在在質詢你們還不知道所以就麻煩你回去立刻"},{"start":12244.433,"end":12267.191,"text":"除了這兩次的公安事件之外我覺得還有一個問題他們怎麼可以隱匿不報?是不是?一定要追究我們徹底來對高鐵公司的部分做一個瞭解跟查處我們希望高鐵除了要行使的安全在施工的時候也要保障基層這些施工人員的安全好不好?這一點拜託"},{"start":12269.793,"end":12288.748,"text":"如果他們有知情不報,我覺得該懲處就懲處,他們不要因為現在新舊政府交接之息啊,他們是不是也認為說自己的這個官位保不保,上層這樣子在那邊打混,然後呢這個下面的人也可以因此覺得反正只要沒有人報,就可以不用通報,好不好?可以嗎?局長可以嗎?"},{"start":12292.071,"end":12294.632,"text":"王宏威委員發言完畢 現在請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":12326.425,"end":12329.166,"text":"主席有事不請交通部陳次長公路局陳局長台鐵公司馮總經理"},{"start":12339.996,"end":12358.586,"text":"市長,您看第一頁,私有的運具,就是說每年新車的量跟報費的量大概差了將近快10萬,運具就是說私有車輛或者運輸車輛越來越多,"},{"start":12360.7,"end":12372.845,"text":"越來越多所以變成說道路會變成常態性的擁捨你在做更多的路或者在拓寬還是沒辦法趕上這個車輛的這個增加的速度這個有沒有什麼解放"},{"start":12375.016,"end":12400.173,"text":"我想委員特別提到這大概是交通管理上一個很嚴肅的一個問題就是如何讓私人運具的管理能夠有一定的管理然後其實最大的問題還是要增加這個相關公共運輸的使用那另外是一個減少這個交通屢次的一個產生他如果產生交通屢次的減少以後當然私人運具的使用就會減少"},{"start":12400.333,"end":12400.693,"text":"提出這個問題想辦法解決是你們的責任"},{"start":12418.084,"end":12432.703,"text":"我想這個我們會來想如何處理其實我們在2050的近年排放裡頭有關綠色運輸的推動上這個也是一個重要的事情我這個問題丟給你 你要好好想方式我來解決因為台鐵楊總經理 黃總經理"},{"start":12435.206,"end":12454.541,"text":"董事長你跟市政府江山捷運站6月底馬上要通車了那你這個聯絡的那個天橋到底這個委管一個天橋管理都沒有辦法這個桃園共識這很奇怪這部分你想辦法解決你不用打呼我你打呼我可能要5分鐘"},{"start":12455.851,"end":12481.799,"text":"你回去跟市政府好好的討論一下這個不是什麼大部分的問題為什麼我已經開了三四次協調會都跟部長講了還是沒辦法解決所以這個部分如果中央政府的確有困難你們這個中央政府這個把它扛下來啦好不好那另外我之前提到我們要增加這個南歐北歐的航點那個在總質詢也提過你們到底有沒有進度啊"},{"start":12483.12,"end":12506.318,"text":"但是這個慰問不要這個慰問就是事故就進遷了然後什麼說明資料也都沒有我跟委員報告這個我可能真是不是瞭解我可能要背後提供給委員現在秘書長秘書長會接新的部長齁你再跟他提醒一下這是我關心齁這個布局要全球化南歐北歐也是一個"},{"start":12507.619,"end":12536.702,"text":"有趣他們也會來高雄也很重要啦但是你這個航點的多元化也很重要這部分這個再加油一下好不好那另外這個幾個道路建設這個當然是跟跟這個比較有相關啦來這個跟公路局啊台六十一線啊台六十一線的部分這個我已經問了好多次好多次難言這也是我提的這個召委可以證明這是我自己寫提案"},{"start":12538.22,"end":12553.53,"text":"我自己寫提案採取台61線兩頁本來是要中文溪口一直跨不過中文溪口我說不能這個停留在中文溪口一定要往南我對高雄市的消息沒有辦法負責沒有辦法交代所以你是從沿海這是濱海國道"},{"start":12555.991,"end":12558.332,"text":"這部分你們就能不能多積極多用心一點"},{"start":12572.519,"end":12594.898,"text":"跟委員報告就是臺六一南沿現在在可沿就是現在確實曾文溪橋往南包括臺南段的跟高雄段的那我們預計大概是8月底大概就是整個可沿報告那包括委員所關心的就是說永安交流道這一個因為它下來以後要怎麼接的這個地區的聯絡道我想我們把它納入這一個可沿裡面這個你們繼續辦理再把這進度跟我說"},{"start":12598.04,"end":12619.11,"text":"北高雄永續提升人行安全計畫特別是非都會區都會區當然它有很多的資源北高雄是非都會區提案那麼多北高雄只有一案這個比例上失衡了你們重新再檢討一下我會再召集會議找高雄市政府交通局"},{"start":12620.64,"end":12643.338,"text":"全面盤點說應該是要把它蓋在這個計畫之營在北高雄或是非都會區這部分我們再請這個交通局再來協調一下那個局長來加強土庫排水這個橋耐洪耐震這個提升高工局這部分再請局長這個"},{"start":12645.718,"end":12667.688,"text":"這幾天討論了好多次這局長你是不是再積極一點目前他因為那個花苞有點延誤那目前已經招標出去了招標出去了那你要趕快招標出去如期如質完工那台資教養縣我也關心的這個沒有千次也有百次加封加薪跟團體三個里的意見你們調查結果怎麼樣台資教養縣"},{"start":12669.479,"end":12694.242,"text":"這個部分的話 因為要在這個整個可研就是大家希望能夠拓寬 但是拓寬會拆到民營房有沒有其他替代道路 替代道路應該去跟地方里長討論一下有沒有替代路線因為那如果北高雄產業園一蓋好 那個絕對是叫每天交通噩夢所以這個部分再請這個主席站起來再給我25秒"},{"start":12696.759,"end":12722.244,"text":"岡山區為誰評價道這個台鐵台鐵為誰評價道我已經看了沒有百次也有十幾次為誰評價道怎麼樣去改善是不是不要推來推去是你們要就趕快承擔一下我們會請我們南區處去你要親自督軍總經理你要親自督軍你去看一下你去看一下就解決了就波龍你做台鐵就不用錢"},{"start":12724.045,"end":12724.665,"text":"謝謝 邱志偉委員發言完畢現在請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":12776.408,"end":12788.931,"text":"我們今天拿非常具體的數據來檢驗蔡英文政府的交通安全成績單你有看到這個圖蔡英文是民國105年5月20號上任"},{"start":12794.158,"end":12821.21,"text":"你會發現這個圖有點趨勢圖好像反部每年都在上升嗎本來他上任的時候那一年交通事故30萬5556件到了去年突破了40萬件顯然蔡政府這8年交通安全事故是嚴重的"},{"start":12822.8,"end":12849.553,"text":"從交通事故的這個事件來看我們進一步來看死傷的人數今年啊交通事故的死傷人數到了新高五十四萬人市長你同樣你從1805年去看那時候死傷人數多少七十萬五千五百四十四人到了去年已經跳到了五十四萬人了更驚悚的是下一張很讓我們難過的"},{"start":12852.526,"end":12878.406,"text":"兒童的死傷人數今年啊,爆衝到11858人因為我平時在質詢都笑他他啊今天練這個數目字我都很悲傷而且你們要看到不只是在比105年的時候比較背景外而已你看110年到112年大家看那個趨勢有沒有像那個沖天炮那是到底發生什麼事情,現在這麼嚴重"},{"start":12881.192,"end":12903.818,"text":"為整個交通的事件反部上升一年一年上升死傷的數目是特別是兒童的我做個統計齁這樣的成績是不是對不起台灣民眾我知道交通部有很多重要的建設對國家是有貢獻的可是在交通安全這一塊安全這個這從事件跟死傷人士來講這個真的對不起台灣人民喔你看一下"},{"start":12905.738,"end":12919.859,"text":"馬英九這個任期,他雖然一開始是高的,你看他是不是比較趨勢往下,整體趨勢是往下降的蔡總統從105年開始,你看這個曲線就一直反步的往上升這樣跟人民可以交代嗎?到底發生什麼事情?"},{"start":12925.077,"end":12948.512,"text":"好 不好回答是吧 沒關係啦 那就加油 這個人命關天的事情啦 好不好加油 我知道交通部大家也很辛苦齁 可是從這個數據看起來真的是難過的 要好好改善 好不好好 那改善就要提出要方 提出要方那最近有修這個道路交通管理處罰條例 我在擔心的是很多人說 會不會讓道安的問題更惡化呢例如我舉一個例子 大家看這個"},{"start":12949.946,"end":12975.282,"text":"道路紅線的圍停他明顯影響到事件對不對大家如果開車或是走路都會碰到這個問題可是現在開始不記點了這個攸關行人這個安全可是現在檢舉這個限縮的這個檢舉首先你們要不要去想一想不記點不檢舉之後這個還是攸關行人的安全啊攸關很多人的安全啊這個好好再檢討一下好不好另外一件事我看你們的預算書"},{"start":12976.587,"end":12994.646,"text":"一八十幾年跟一百一十二年跟一百一十三年交通部要補助十一年要建科技執法的設備要全國三百四十五個的所在這是毛起來在開單是吧把人民當提款機嗎這個也想一下好不好在比較先進的國家"},{"start":12997.759,"end":12999.58,"text":"上下客運的空間要先做好不要讓職業駕駛人被迫去違規這問題很嚴重對不對"},{"start":13028.963,"end":13057.474,"text":"這個也要解決嘛好不好 第二個同一個地點 同一個違規 連續開罰單你如果照目前科技執法 進行開罰 進行舉發的你的大手段 我們報告法 搞不好交通部的觀點都碰到這個問題啊你收到那個罰單 老過的事一兩個月嘛 對不對 不會啊你如果是當場勸發 它就不會再發生第二次啊所以這個問題是要解決的 好不好沒辦法達到 沒辦法達到欠倒這個目的 你要怎麼去解決這要做 第三個"},{"start":13058.561,"end":13077.319,"text":"你若發現一個路口違規常常發現可是你改善了一段時間改善幅度都很小你至少三個地方要檢討道路的路邊道路的標線號誌的設計號誌的設計是不是路型要調整是不是這樣本席提這三個大的點交通部可以回去好好檢討嗎"},{"start":13078.721,"end":13104.311,"text":"報告一下原則上這三個其實我們目前已經開始有在做了上下客貨我們也要求地方政府開始去做這樣一個空間的一個劃設那至於說第二個有關連續舉花其實連續舉花的這個事情在處罰條例有相關規定然後同一個地點希望剛才達到委員特別提到說他有知道處罰能夠達到目的以後再做處罰的這樣一件事情"},{"start":13104.751,"end":13132.819,"text":"其實我的瞭解以往也曾經處理過是不是處理過了以後大家又又又這個我們再拿起來檢討至於說後面的有關這個路口改善這是一定的我們現在正在做相關的一個路口改善所以原則上委員這些建議我們會積極的來辦理我們那些改善要落實好不好是人命關鍵的事情你們的工作是很重要的每一個事件都可能有人死傷那全世界比較先進國家都不是以花錢"},{"start":13135.078,"end":13163.587,"text":"你要做科技的執法他應該只是個手段不是目的嘛對不對所以全國比較先進的他都在降低這個進行舉發的這個比例喔對不對其實應該都這樣嘛對不對所以本席是要求交通部你要協同警政署去減少科技執法進行舉發的比例你現在一年喔我看你今年去年開了1750萬張的罰單來在櫃背上全部都是用科技執法進行舉發的你能不能把這個比例把它降下來"},{"start":13164.81,"end":13169.453,"text":"這個我們來跟這個警政署來協調啦因為他這裡頭進行舉報有很多的是那個是這個這個這個收費收費未繳的等等的這種OK最後問一點不好意思超過時間我問最後一個問題很多很多民眾反映的"},{"start":13194.472,"end":13213.078,"text":"現在112年到現在被進行舉發的那個違規據點超過12點的你本來裁決完之後就要調照嘛對不對我問一下那因為新法新法馬上就上就上來了嘛修完法之後依照法律的規定應該採取對人民比較有利那一方對不對所以這個你們會做什麼決定"},{"start":13216.2,"end":13237.551,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下新修正的處罰條例63條裡面對於這個一年計12點吊扣駕照兩個月這個規定並沒有改沒有改所以至少就是用新法比較有利於民眾所以目前如果沒有被你們裁決也不會吊照的新法以後也不會吊對不對沒有沒有跟委員報告新修正這一點規定都沒有改就是12點就是要吊扣兩個月"},{"start":13238.311,"end":13239.111,"text":"交通違規這個現景要先去改善"},{"start":13259.498,"end":13279.831,"text":"要只是把人民當提款機,而且那個交通安全行人跟國人這個安全好不好,請一起努力繼續加油,我們繼續加油謝謝市長,謝謝市長,謝謝市長謝謝張吉凱委員,發言完畢,現在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":13297.535,"end":13303.119,"text":"主席、各位委員﹚有請次長﹚還有公路總級請陳次長、陳局長次長、局長好這個蘇花安這個"},{"start":13317.956,"end":13341.149,"text":"環評經過兩次的出省會議5月14日出省會議建議通過建議通過這四個字我以為第一次看建議通過然後還要在7月31日前補充資料這個部分上次我也"},{"start":13343.111,"end":13369.889,"text":"這個質詢也是建議你們要好好的去做說明因為第一次出神竟然沒有過當然環評的人員都在變都在改不同的人所以我上次一直強調是說這個抒發改那這次0403地震都沒有怎麼樣歷次的這個颱風也是都沒有怎麼樣更重要的就是"},{"start":13371.181,"end":13391.23,"text":"北回鐵路啊對不對北回鐵路也是一樣幾十年來颱風地震都變成這樣所以現在的科技啊可以解決而且可以跟環保並存解決環保的問題那個才是解決環保的問題"},{"start":13393.207,"end":13407.434,"text":"所以這個部要做比較詳細的說明然後這個我是建議趕快提早送這個資料然後請環境部提早召開環評大會可以嗎"},{"start":13411.28,"end":13435.97,"text":"跟委員報告因為第一次的專案小組因為他給了一些意見本來是5月底要我們就是說把它修正過去其實我們有提早我們4月29號就送過去了然後他5月14號因為就這個第一次的意見要我們去說明我也親自過去那也跟他說明了說明之後因為他現在開的是專案小組會議所以專案小組會議他叫做說建議通過"},{"start":13436.79,"end":13453.538,"text":"建議通過因為他給我們一些意見我們做修正那我想我們會盡快把他修正趕快送過去他就會提到他們的大會然後來對所以我說不要他雖然訂7月31號以前提早送一定然後這個再協調請次長協調環境部提早叨開這個環評大會好不好"},{"start":13460.305,"end":13460.325,"text":"116年"},{"start":13476.63,"end":13481.314,"text":"公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形"},{"start":13502.933,"end":13507.401,"text":"因為事實上公路總級已經很有經驗了,交通部很有經驗了,你看這個抒發改的時間,抒發改是更難做的"},{"start":13514.98,"end":13538.452,"text":"更難做,比現在蘇安還難做了,時間很快就完成了,所以這個部分你們是沒有問題的,你們的能力技術都沒有問題的,所以這個蘇安真的是要加快,這個部分真的是這樣拉太長,現在又要往後延了,這個都是你們的資料了"},{"start":13539.532,"end":13563.86,"text":"本來是12119現在又要變成121所以這個部分這個要加油好今天談的這個相關的這些相關的這另外一個國道五號銜接書改那個環評包括裡面部分民眾對施工變道工程有異議還有當地民眾那個部分"},{"start":13564.62,"end":13592.262,"text":"涉及到原住民的部落的部分：你們就請嚴明會共同的一起去協調好不好是另外就是說那個有關時間還有一點點在你們今天的報告裡面有談到臺九縣臺八縣這些落石崩塌這些那是臺十一縣也有這一次的零四零三地震"},{"start":13593.343,"end":13611.114,"text":"包括到後續的遺症,後續的遺症已經是4月22號了還有遺症然後這個是4月22號的這個畫面所以已經是多多造成這樣的一個還好都正好"},{"start":13612.729,"end":13628.644,"text":"正好沒有人員通行不然的話就是一個一個很重大的問題所以這個部分就請這個公路總局交通部這邊這個既然已經知道了還是要去做改善"},{"start":13629.721,"end":13631.362,"text":"謝謝正天才委員發言完畢現在請牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":13667.887,"end":13671.41,"text":"好 謝謝主席齁 這個次長跟公路局局長有請請次長請局長委員好"},{"start":13680.812,"end":13707.995,"text":"今天談的是這個公路系統的安全改善那當然啦我看你報告裡面當然是寫說比如說邊坡落石阿或是一些橋梁的安全耐震補強這個沒有問題齁但是喔我想這個交通安全這件事情恐怕也不只是邊坡地區啦平常的馬路的品質的維護阿我想應該也是安全很重要的一環加上最近也通過了這個行人安全的相關的一些辦法希望這個改善台灣形成地域的一個狀態所以說這一部分我們今天就以本席的選區規範為例來做一下探討"},{"start":13709.836,"end":13735.893,"text":"我們看到頭影片這一條路叫做龜山的萬壽路它是這個公路局中立公務段所負責的省道那這件事情我們過去做議員的時候當然桃園市政府講這是歸中央管轄那這條道路跟這個兩位說明一下這個基本上已經二十幾年沒有全段重鋪了我是覺得這個公路的總體的修繕尤其是中央負責的部分你也是要有安排定期的全段跑步"},{"start":13736.133,"end":13740.016,"text":"打滑摔倒的啦車禍的啦以及等等那有很多不舒服的一個狀況所以這部分有沒有相關的一些我們就針對道路重鋪有沒有一些相關的計畫"},{"start":13757.128,"end":13779.426,"text":"有跟各位報告這個部分的話就是說他如果說沒辦法就是說這個小區域的這個重複的話其實就是需要就是說做整個比較大範圍的一個處理那我們的當地的這個公務段跟分局已經就是在這個月會成立這個整個的一個養護的一個預算那我們這個部分的話我想我們會盡快的這個核定趕快來做修復"},{"start":13780.026,"end":13800.986,"text":"好 上一次的整戰重複是20年前這一段道路就是台一甲線這個萬壽路的一二三段從回龍的生活圈到龜山的市區一路到桃園火車站基本上是應該要好好來做一下檢討所以我要求公路局這邊把相關的預算編組來來協助地方政府來做這個道路的養護那第二個剛剛我有提到就是說這個既然最近通過了新的法條"},{"start":13801.627,"end":13819.241,"text":"那是不是也藉這樣的一個機會除了道路重鋪本身的品質提升之外是不是也針對一下行人安全的部分做一下檢討也許同一筆預算或者是不同的預算一起來做一次的工程不只把道路鋪平來也把相關行人友善的設施可以來做納入讓整個道路安全的品質可以再提升可以嗎"},{"start":13821.293,"end":13837.412,"text":"道路鋪面重鋪之後那個標線要重劃標線重劃的時候比如說這個行川線該退縮的啦或是有些這個線不夠清楚的我想我們一定會依照這個行人安全的這些標準來做我們近期會安排相關的一些會刊要求公路局這邊責成中立公路段權力配合"},{"start":13838.914,"end":13846.618,"text":"第二個還有一點點時間跟次長來討論一下這個事本來我們希望是王國才部長離開的聲音是支持大眾運輸的聲音就上一次在交通委員會質詢的時候當然我們談的是國道客運的運價調整他們講說當初全聯會有提一個版本我們當初在做協調溝通的時候其實他們都再三保證如果說這個運價調整的部分有做一個通過的話可以大幅的減輕各個國道客運虧損的問題"},{"start":13866.647,"end":13876.378,"text":"然後以至於去改善這個大家對於大眾運輸投入營運興趣缺缺的這樣子一個狀況那市長這個東西公布之後你們有沒有收到新的反饋"},{"start":13881.359,"end":13888.641,"text":"國道客運的運價調整反映成本交通部已經給我們核定了我們也轉到各個客運業者因為我們有補貼短途的部分TPS的部分都會吸收"},{"start":13898.024,"end":13925.982,"text":"那中長的部分是已經補貼三分之二他們不高所以他們還目前各客運業者並沒有提報就是漲價的一個按照啦我現在可以給你反映基層的心聲就有某客運公司就一個桃園往返台北的國道客運按照你調的最高額度因為你這一公里從1.437調到1.503其實有調跟沒調一樣實務上他們反映的結果是這樣他的月營收按照你他如果往上調對不對增加八萬五千塊可是你知道他月虧損是多少錢嗎"},{"start":13927.634,"end":13948.351,"text":"祝福很擔心這件事情我們花了那麼久的時間來爭取到最後又變空談一場我認為是有問題的好那面對這樣的問題交通部有兩個解決方案因為我想次長有留任希望持續來追蹤這件事情第一個是在針對這件事情或者有其他的補貼方案來做綜合的檢討第二個就是針對短途我想這基隆林佩祥委員也非常關心"},{"start":13948.951,"end":13960.704,"text":"就短途的國道科院因為他有通勤尖峰的一個特性當初交通部就有答應說要安排專案的補貼來改善這樣子的一個狀況那麼這件事情現在進度如何是不是請交通部做一下說明"},{"start":13962.561,"end":13989.437,"text":"委員報告這大概是兩個啦一個剛才是委員講到的是短途通勤的這個國道客運如何讓他這個永續的營運下去這一塊我想我們已經責請這個公路總局就相關的這個營運上如何來於協助是不是補貼的機制可以做些什麼樣的調整而且他們正在研議中我想這個我沒有考慮到這個他這個短途他的尖離風"},{"start":13990.177,"end":14016.454,"text":"的不一樣的特性這個我們會來做協助但是這個跟整體的票價其實應該切開來看的啦對嘛那我講你票價沒有辦法讓解決業者的營運困境的時候那你的補貼就要解決業者的營運困境對不對好那相關的一些辦法我可能又要請公路局來開會了好不好貴後我們再約時間再來詳細報告好不好這個一定要把它解決掉好不好也請次長跟新任的交通部長講這大眾運輸很重要的題目可以徹底改善台灣的交通狀況好不好好謝謝辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":14019.489,"end":14019.849,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請次長請次長"},{"start":14054.69,"end":14082.64,"text":"市長我想先確認一下現在其實我們重大公共工程缺工缺料的問題都讓各地的公路捷運工程等受到影響那本席這邊的選區不管是國道、林口交流道、五谷交流道之前也有流標的狀況那雖然說2022年已經標出但是無法在原預期本來是希望是今年或明年就可以完工那目前這樣也會延後"},{"start":14083.361,"end":14086.84,"text":"通案性的問題阿你覺得這要怎麼解決"},{"start":14087.936,"end":14110.982,"text":"我想有關那個物價上漲或原物料上漲的這些問題我瞭解工程費有相關的一個處理的機制在這上頭當然如果說整體的這個計畫的物價的上漲已經超過了這個原來計畫核定的核度我想可能就要循相關的程序之前我們有我有詢問過勞動部勞動部講是說現在缺工的狀況國內差不多20萬人到30萬人"},{"start":14117.384,"end":14134.401,"text":"那我們自己這重大交通工程的一些缺工的狀況我們自己有沒有盤點我們現在進行當中有不然你說明一下像委員報告目前交通部部署機關用外籍勞工比較多跟比較大的單位是"},{"start":14135.285,"end":14137.587,"text":"這樣算起來幾乎所有重大交通工程其實現在都是依靠移工"},{"start":14152.68,"end":14170.706,"text":"也未必因為目前你剛算了哪一個不是算是重大交通工程都是啊都涵蓋在裡面啊要委員跟委員報告因為工程他需要執行的專業程度又是類似金字塔型那移工的部分大部分是補足底層的比較粗的出階的勞力出階的勞力"},{"start":14173.719,"end":14181.989,"text":"本席有看到交通部鐵道局統計,去年說土木直隙的直缺超過10%"},{"start":14183.871,"end":14209.767,"text":"負責東部鐵道工程的東工處缺額更高達25%換言之東工處相關的人員其實都有等於是缺四分之一的人力那相關的員工的流動量也大每年平均還會離職超過兩位數所以現在鐵道局或公司化的台鐵都一樣有什麼樣的一個誘因來解決缺工的問題"},{"start":14211.104,"end":14211.124,"text":"市長"},{"start":14228.778,"end":14252.445,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛提到的我們東部工程分局人力的缺乏這是公務人員的部分這跟現場我們發包給廠商他執行的工程所需要的不管是剛剛我們市長提到的專業工班還是一般的基礎的這樣的一個工作這個人力是不同的人力的需求那因為我們東部的這個部分他的轄區範圍非常長"},{"start":14254.045,"end":14258.089,"text":"本席剛講的就是你們之前在媒體上報導就是職缺的一個部分那你的東部加急是不是每個月只有630元"},{"start":14276.01,"end":14295.928,"text":"是嗎?所以媒體有講是說是缺乏誘因甚至就講是說老的退休新人不進來人力的斷層嚴重是不是有這樣的狀況?是有這個情況那是有這個情況媒體也都報導了是那目前我們有什麼檢討或改變的措施?我們現在積極的跟部裡面也跟行政院來做人員這個部分的一個問題的反應"},{"start":14298.325,"end":14317.783,"text":"怎麼反應來次長不是啦我們不要講空話啦我很實在話講我覺得今天本席會看到有媒體這樣的報導那東部地區有這樣的狀況四分之一的人力缺乏還是次長其實之前沒有看到這樣的媒體報導我跟委員報告有關"},{"start":14320.236,"end":14333.767,"text":"有關這樣的一個事情其實在我們交通部相關主改的時候阿包含跟剛才講的鐵道局公路總局或其他單位大概都有遇到相關的其實"},{"start":14334.768,"end":14362.498,"text":"應該是講到工程待遇的問題其實這根本就是一個已經累積很久的一個狀況所以我們最近其實有透過希望行政院能夠跟我們有希望跟人事總署來談相關的一個人力也好或者是待遇也好或是績效獎金也好因為看起來不是缺不夠啊看起來是你有缺沒有人啊那你的待遇也不行啊所以說變成是缺乏誘因來去做這個"},{"start":14363.618,"end":14369.183,"text":"本席一分鐘的時間也要再詢問一下今天有特別講到這個橋梁的一個部分關渡大橋在本席的一個選區裡面我們先講兩個部分一個是關渡大橋"},{"start":14388.47,"end":14414.667,"text":"三不五時就會有YouTube也會去拍影片我覺得這很好就代表說用路人大家都會去關心但是常常你在那個影片上面都一直看到就是說關渡大橋都會讓大家覺得說設計先天失靈後天失良這邊是說他的設計一直都會讓用路人很有詬病包括說很多人就覺得是說他上面的標示或說潮話線或是相關的一個設計"},{"start":14415.808,"end":14441.104,"text":"那本席其實在之前上任的時候我就一直講過我覺得我一直強調的是專業要來去做判斷那到底現在的設計是不是好的設計如果是好的設計的話他應該就是要堅持但如果說是不好設計的話該改就要改而不是說每發生一件事情的時候再來改這邊改一點那邊改一點你可以理解我意思嗎"},{"start":14442.403,"end":14470.621,"text":"就是說你現在整體的設計如果說是好的那就代表是說我們可以已經防止了大部分的一個車禍那真的會不會有車禍因為用路大、量大一定難免會有車禍但是如果說真的有這個車禍的話它可能它是一個激烈問題或它有可能其他的因素造成那就不是道路設計不良可是我們現在看到的是說你每一次現在設計完之後發生了一個車禍然後結果公路總局又再去調整"},{"start":14471.622,"end":14487.373,"text":"朝化線也好調整那個立裝也好那就代表是說你自己承認說那個立裝或那個朝化線其實設計不良而導致這個車禍那這樣的話他有存在必要嗎那為什麼當初會讓他存在在那裡所以我之前也一直講過說是不是應該要"},{"start":14489.502,"end":14503.929,"text":"聘請專業的單位好好地去檢視現在關渡大橋現在設計是不是足夠良好那如果說不足的地方應該我們自己主動就把它給設計出來或是規劃出來而不是等到發生問題之後頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":14506.621,"end":14507.061,"text":"正在作業什麼作業?"},{"start":14535.821,"end":14557.74,"text":"委託交通安全整體的改善計畫委託案發出了嗎?多少費用?這個部分應該還沒有委託出去,是不是這個完整的細節再跟我們做一個報告請局長再跟我報告,但是我必須再強調一點"},{"start":14559.361,"end":14583.496,"text":"其實過去我從上任以來我就一直關注而且我也一直講是說關渡大橋這個用量可能是全台的橋梁用量最大的交通量最大那那個時候你們一直也講你們講是說沒有委員現在OK了設計這樣子是我們經過專業評估每一次來都跟我們講說是經過專業評估那結果勒發生一件事情之後就突然間兩個禮拜後"},{"start":14585.197,"end":14593.042,"text":"那個立裝就不見了發生一件事情之後突然間兩個禮拜後潮話線就不見了或是說潮話線就增加那你們專業在哪裡"},{"start":14594.833,"end":14616.415,"text":"如果說你們有專業的話你們應該是說我告訴任何的民眾或是告訴人家講說我們確實有經過評估這樣子的設計是最好的那真的有發生意外的話但是我們以這樣的設計意外其實已經大幅降低了而不是說當發生意外之後 欸 抱歉我自己改如果說你們要自己改的話那不就自打嘴巴嗎"},{"start":14617.495,"end":14640.504,"text":"所以這也是我那時候上任的時候我一直強調是說你應該先做做完之後你應該要堅持因為比專業來講任何人你們既然是行政部門既然公路局以前從總局現在變公路局但不管是叫什麼名稱公路方面應該是你們要有自豪要有自信講是說你們做出來的東西是至少在中華民國我們國內最專業的"},{"start":14642.984,"end":14653.984,"text":"如果說你們都變成是說頭通一頭腳通一腳或是說人家提出一點質疑連挑戰你們你們馬上進不去挑戰的話那我說實在話你這樣的單位有什麼專業可言"},{"start":14655.6,"end":14679.627,"text":"我做一個最後的檢討,我再跟委員做一個說明什麼時候可以跟我說?一個禮拜內,給本席辦公室,包括說你們未來要做的改進以及說明,讓本席知道,可以嗎?好,可以可以,謝謝好,謝謝,侯孟楷委員發言完畢,現在請徐欣盈委員發言"},{"start":14687.284,"end":14691.768,"text":"臣政次次長臣政次長臣政次長臣政次長臣政次長臣政次長臣政次長"},{"start":14710.68,"end":14735.372,"text":"主要屬於這個臺一線或是高速公路塞車的問題沒辦法解決,是不是交通部的責任?如果是在相關的這個省道或國道上?對,省道,就臺一線稱為省道那本席想請教一下,不知道您知不知道我們全亞洲最塞車的城市是哪一個城市?"},{"start":14736.434,"end":14759.369,"text":"我們交通部有在了解嗎或是我們全台灣好了那全台灣最塞車的城市沒有那我們定義塞車好那我再請教我們如果塞車有沒有一個標準塞到什麼程度你們才願意出手來協助剛剛你說的省道或國道它不是特殊因素它是長期的塞車"},{"start":14767.756,"end":14782.546,"text":"對,我想這個委員特別提到因為我們的所有的這個道路上都有所謂的服務水準那你時數到什麼情況?你算最嚴重是多少?你跟我講最嚴重是多少?"},{"start":14784.166,"end":14805.715,"text":"實數,你的ABCDE最嚴重是A嘛,對不對?不是不是,最好是A最好是A,好,那就是1ABCDE,那你1的話你實數是多少?你算塞車嗎?然後這個還有高速公路跟那個對對對,那我就高速公路跟不含特殊因素,什麼車禍或什麼你正常時間,不是巔峰時間你塞車"},{"start":14810.339,"end":14834.659,"text":"省道你時數多少你要改善嘛還有高速公路嘛國道你有沒有標準省道應該不會有塞車那我真的要拜託你不會有塞車到這個所謂的F級等級還不去改善的不會啦不會有F等級是時數多少F已經算到很很時數多少講得出來嗎20還是20喔還是多少"},{"start":14840.455,"end":14855.359,"text":"好,我跟次長報告啦,我們全亞中最塞車的城市,它時數大概就是20但是我們新豐,新竹縣新豐鄉省道上,它可以塞到30對,不是不是,它12,12,對,每小時只有12"},{"start":14861.587,"end":14878.265,"text":"有我相信你們應該知道啊地方一直喊一直喊而且這種情形因為我們的省道啊省道貫穿整個台灣但是每個地區他城市的發展不同他可能本來從鄉村慢慢他因為"},{"start":14879.386,"end":14881.607,"text":"所以這一塊本席要特別的請勿在新竹縣台一線上"},{"start":14906.42,"end":14924.579,"text":"湖口到新峰湖口的部分就是我們你們應該很清楚嘛高速公路不用到上下班上下班就不用講了那平常就塞所以全台灣北或南的民眾啊大家只要有在高速公路開車的經驗"},{"start":14926.721,"end":14947.372,"text":"塞車了虎口到了那新豐也是虎口跟新豐都是高度發展他從一個鄉村變成像虎口鄉他已經要變成全國最大的鄉鎮市不然是啦鄉鎮他已經變最大所以虎口他是高速公路回堵"},{"start":14948.593,"end":14964.452,"text":"新風是台一線回堵所以這個已經很多年很多年了所以本席希望我們交通部我們今天的這樣的一個討論質詢跟反應你們可以重視而且能夠積極的來協助可以嗎"},{"start":14967,"end":14982.493,"text":"跟委員報告,剛才講到高速公路湖口那段,我想委員應該就很清楚,我們從陽梅到頭份,有一個陽頭的高架道路破款改善那已經喊很久了嘛,現在定案到施工到完成,我看大概還要5到10年所以那個我們會來那個,剛才講到的施工"},{"start":14985.555,"end":15012.761,"text":"他除了羊頭高架道路之外那個高速公路本身一高他的跟我們市區道路的連結那個也有改善也有改善的計畫也要拜託這個我們再來看怎麼樣來在這個地方看怎麼樣來討論那至於說剛才台一線我的了解新竹線還是有在那邊要做台一線的替代道路就在新豐"},{"start":15014.442,"end":15038.3,"text":"主北到新峰,台一線替代道路,但是那個是從新竹市武陵路過來他就到這個接近新峰,主北交界那裡可是我說的是,主北到新峰的南邊往北邊接湖口那一段也要拜託這個我們再請公路總局再來看看,看怎麼樣來做處理真的要拜託你們,要重視地方好嗎?是是,好謝謝"},{"start":15040.68,"end":15041.3,"text":"麻煩政次請陳次長"},{"start":15069.55,"end":15096.3,"text":"市長好上禮拜你們在我有針對於我們近縣內非都市計畫之一搬道路的道路環境規劃跟我們的用路安全問題要求我們的公路局要給我書面資料再麻煩敬述那這禮拜我想再進一步針對我們的行川縣跟我們的人行道的設置來就教於我們的市長這邊希望交通部能夠給出一些具體的"},{"start":15102.575,"end":15114.366,"text":"行穿線的照明應該使我們夜間駕駛可以清楚地辨識行穿線跟行人所以在國內的交通工程規範當中有明確地去訂定照明的相關規範"},{"start":15121.733,"end":15150.9,"text":"只要舉凡穿越道的一個照明度應該符合垂直照度的需求燈具安裝的部分也要避免對駕駛人造成眩光所以本席想問的是這樣的一個垂直照度然後只有40L以上那這40L以上呢就是40燭光以上那如果剛好在40又是垂直照度只照度到在某一個範圍的時候是不是"},{"start":15151.539,"end":15153.56,"text":"足夠想就叫一次長應該就是看那個規範上是怎麼樣規範的是來看下一頁所以就會發生這種彰化案事故發生在晚間的6點21分那事故發生的點剛好是在兩站入燈的中間點所以就缺乏照明所以要不要去檢討這個照明到底夠不夠因為我自己是開車的"},{"start":15181.598,"end":15181.638,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":15209.963,"end":15215.481,"text":"在行川縣現在有很多綠地那這個規範上我不知道"},{"start":15216.243,"end":15241.498,"text":"沒有一個很明確的規範因為目前各地方政府都在做這件事情所以在這樣子的一個狀況裡面我們看到這種綠底漆除了顯眼以外也具備排水功能是很好那抗滑係數也加一般的那個熱半漆膏可是有一個問題想請教我們的交通部使用這種聚光紋理的綠底漆國內是否有相關的CMS規範"},{"start":15247.531,"end":15261.096,"text":"如果沒有的話我覺得請去訂這個規範而且要考慮到也就是他還有脆裂磨平的問題的時候可能在規範裡面還是要去做考量下一頁"},{"start":15262.298,"end":15287.827,"text":"另外一個要來問的是在人行道設置去年修法就已經明確的把公路跟市區道路共同使用的路段從原先我們原先條文的規定的因評估設置人行道修正為因流設人行道所以本席予以肯定可是此處的因流設是指未來道路新建的才要流設"},{"start":15288.869,"end":15293.126,"text":"我們的空間來設人行道還是既有的道路都要設人行道"},{"start":15295.758,"end":15302.162,"text":"這個既有的道路我們會去把它檢討然後如果要改建的話我們會讓它符合這樣的一個規範"},{"start":15325.277,"end":15325.838,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":15337.031,"end":15364.1,"text":"我主張全面檢盤點我們的道路照明的情形是不是可以提出具體的改善計畫跟期程不要再跟路人講說那你要不要穿得更亮一點那除非我全身都是做反光那第二個是研擬增訂我們的行川線那個綠底漆的CNS規範還有針對公路跟市區道路共用的路段可不可以全面的盤點檢討跟評估人行道設置的情形來回應我們"},{"start":15365.801,"end":15374.96,"text":"民眾的需求來下降傷亡．並提出具體的改善計劃跟期程這三項是不是可以一個月然後提出來"},{"start":15377.284,"end":15395.792,"text":"委員報告我們可以在一個月內向委員提出說這個每一點我們後續要打算怎麼做因為那裡頭有的牽涉到跟地方政府要相關而且大家要共同討論不是一時就可以比如說像規範但是如何怎麼做然後期程是怎麼樣我們來提出來跟委員做說明好謝謝"},{"start":15399.4,"end":15428.105,"text":"好,謝謝,您也請委員發言完畢現在請黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在現在請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在現在請蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員不在登記執行委員軍旅發言完畢做以下決定"},{"start":15429.591,"end":15450.05,"text":"報告及詢討完畢委員陳冠廷黃仁所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢 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提出出審,經由中央目的使館機關依照這個審核標準來審定,行政院會用國家整體資源瑞士配置的考量來核定,所以我們覺得不宜以中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":1971.421,"end":1991.692,"text":"還有一些建設計畫來作為核定。」那第二個就是有關於偵掠縣市政府認定離島重大建設投資計畫這部分因為其實離島建設、重大建設投資計畫通常會涉及中央目的不同的中央目的事業主管機關的權責而且依據本條例第七條規定"},{"start":1993.233,"end":2012.928,"text":"經合訂的重大建設計劃,它的都市計劃的主要計劃,還有非都的使用變更,是由縣市政府來合訂。」那基本上有點就是認定也是縣市政府,結果再來合訂那些也是縣市政府,所以我們就這一條我們也是有些保留的意見。"},{"start":2014.583,"end":2035.303,"text":"第二條就修正條文第五條有關於修正這個建設類別那基本上其實委員建議把消防跟殯葬設施才明列在這個條文裡面那事實上其實我們現在離島政府所提的一些消防跟殯葬設施其實都已經有納入在離島綜合實施計畫"},{"start":2037.185,"end":2052.015,"text":"案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、"},{"start":2052.976,"end":2079.885,"text":"條文第七條有關於擴大重大建設投資計畫的合併的範疇。」那就是他這七條事實上是跟第三條做一下呼應就是呢離島重大建設投資計畫他希望有分為中央跟地方的層級然後也爭議排除國家公園的限制那有關於由中央目的事業主管機關他經由離島建設計畫"},{"start":2082.668,"end":2086.792,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":2101.545,"end":2122.136,"text":"那有關於離島重要建設計畫的核定不受國家公園法的限制呢?其實我們尊重內政部的意見,那內政部是認為說基本上國家公園法裡面目前是由該部辦理劃設而且報警席捲院核定所以其實恐怕也沒有辦法授權縣市政府來核定"},{"start":2123.216,"end":2149.836,"text":"有關於針頁條文第七之一條的這些辦理度式計畫的擴大或通盤檢討的開發時程,我想我們尊重主管部會內政部的意見。第五個是修正條文第十條要減徵營業事業所的稅,公用事業至國外進口的貨物及勞務免徵營業稅或關稅。我們基本上尊重"},{"start":2152.587,"end":2172.064,"text":"稅的主管機關財政部的意見。」adequations to the Department of Finance, the Department of Finance, and the Ministry of Finance.到第七頁有關於修正條文第十條,離島免稅購物店則於臺灣本島兩地通行港口設置提貨區,考量臺灣本島往返離島的通行港口設置提貨區有助於增加離島"},{"start":2173.385,"end":2173.425,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":2191.508,"end":2210.679,"text":"案、第七條有關於修正條文第十三條徵頁55歲以上原住民的離島避孕建保會由中央編業指引,那基本上這個權責是屬於衛福部跟原住民委員會,那我們基本上尊重目的事業主管機關的意見。那以上報告。好謝謝。"},{"start":2217.842,"end":2238.102,"text":"我們現在有提案委員在現場我們首先請議事院會交付的我們請黃仁委員做提案說明謝謝主席"},{"start":2239.178,"end":2255.464,"text":"有關於這個離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案那本席再做一個說明那一、為維護離島居民之生命安全及身體健康行政院因編列預算補助在離島開業之醫療機構"},{"start":2258.766,"end":2261.509,"text":"為副理機構、長照機構及其他醫事機構該離島地區所缺乏之專科醫師並訂定特別獎勵及輔導辦法。」"},{"start":2275.202,"end":2301.864,"text":"：原離島建設條例第十三條僅規範六十五歲以上身份之離島地區居民、全民健康保險對象應自付自保險費,由中央政府編列預算之應。第三,有建議原住民平均移民與全國國人平均移民有些差距,"},{"start":2302.905,"end":2324.999,"text":"且憲法徵修條文第十條規定國家對原住民衛生、醫療應益保障、輔助並促其發展原住民主基本法第二十條第三項規定政府應積極辦理原住民社會福利事項"},{"start":2327.813,"end":2344.97,"text":"第四、緩提案徵修離島條例第十三條將離島居民五十五歲以上原住民長者納入應支付全民健康保險之保險費由中央政府編列預算之應。第五、另以"},{"start":2346.458,"end":2371.531,"text":"應由離島緊急送往臺灣本島就醫之際重診之病人及陪同之醫護人員及往返交通費用由中央目的事業主管機關補助之以及對於有接受長期照顧服務必要之身心障礙者及老人中央目的的事業主管機關應編列經費補助"},{"start":2374.432,"end":2394.421,"text":"第六為維護離島老人尊嚴及健康中央目的事業主管機關應提供老人每兩年一次比照公務人員健康檢查項目之體檢以老人福利法由直轄市縣市主管縣市主管機關"},{"start":2403.068,"end":2425.67,"text":"當年提供之老人健康檢查之差額由中央目的事業主管機關編列預算來補助。第七,在此建議朝野各位立法委能支持本席之提案以落實政府照顧原住民主之精神而不是淪為口號。謝謝大家。好 謝謝"},{"start":2429.738,"end":2451.239,"text":"接下來我們請提案委員陳玉珍委員做三個提案一起說明謝謝謝謝主席謝謝主席今天特別排審有關我們金門澎湖馬祖這個離島建設相關的這個離島建設條例的分析所提出來的這個"},{"start":2455.306,"end":2466.03,"text":"整體來說離島建設條例從民國108年4月26日修訂第十條之後契機已經超過五年沒有做任何的修訂然後行政院自從民國104年"},{"start":2467.751,"end":2486.028,"text":"提案徵修第九之三條以後已經超過十年沒有做任何徵修條文的提案這當中並不是沒有人提出來不管是金門、馬祖鵬還有其他離島鄉的這個立委提出來的各項離島建設條例的修法都被今天在場的主管的這個國發會一一的打回票"},{"start":2486.829,"end":2495.94,"text":"本期還記得上個月18號在內政委會審查地方制度法本期提案你增加制定離島基本法的法源依據時,國發會的書面報告這樣寫他說因應離島地區居民需要,過往離島建設條例陸續已辦理"},{"start":2502.148,"end":2529.318,"text":"十二次修法工作未來離島地區特殊發展可以適時辦理修訂以充實完備對離島地區發展的扶持及對離島居民的照顧。」國會醫師都說沒有必要訂這個離島計劃只要適時的修正這個離島建設條例即可但是這麼多年來不管金門、馬祖鵬或是其他離島縣的立委所提出來的這修法草案我看國會沒有同意的也沒有提出行政院版的"},{"start":2529.918,"end":2545.827,"text":"建議只是一昧的抗拒地方的民意,這個對離島的相信事實上非常不公平。本期今天所提出的這些修法都不是本期個人的意見,事實上是離島金馬鵬三縣市綜合開過會議後所提出來的綜合的意見,是三個縣市政府綜合提出來的意見,也開過,三個縣市政府曾經開過離島這個縣市的會議,是綜合提出來,並不是本期個人提出的意見。我要強調的是,"},{"start":2556.633,"end":2556.673,"text":"今天國發會"},{"start":2572.347,"end":2584.196,"text":"第一不支持制定離島基本法,第二又對離島建設條例的修法在否決。」那我真的很想請問這個離島這個主管機關就是我們國發會有沒有真心的在為離島的發展做思考其實本期針對這個離島建設條例還有許多的提案還會一一的在送進來包括最近金門的我想請問國發會知道最近金門縣會有提相關的這個"},{"start":2596.186,"end":2611.172,"text":"條例第十三條條文修法的建議或相關的建議。」我等一下問一下國會,到底你們知道離島基民在想什麼?最近金門的縣議員在提自由貿易港區醫藥特區營業稅、零稅率、土地增益、重大民生物資進口免營業稅。到時候本縣還會再一一的提出來喔。"},{"start":2612.312,"end":2634.163,"text":"所以今天的提案說明重點本期說明如下第一個將消防及建設及完善殯葬設施列入這個離島綜合建設實施方案的這個內容國安會剛剛說這些本來就已經列入實施計畫當中不需要修正本期要強調的是當不明文規定時這些項目就會變成是非必要的項目案子要不要通過呢都還要來看我們審查委員的臉色"},{"start":2636.724,"end":2637.204,"text":"案 並且擬具"},{"start":2652.977,"end":2671.228,"text":"在地需求提出這個綜合發展計畫及重建計畫裡頭的這個權利,這個主要是因為目前離島建設計畫裡頭的重大建設投資計畫都要是中央主管機關認定的重要產業投資或是交由民間機構辦理公共建設計畫,但是我要說的是"},{"start":2672.128,"end":2687.998,"text":"案 中央對地方的需求有時候不大辛苦而且我發現在場的許多我真的想知道這個國發會裡頭在場許多做決定的、做決策的人到底有多少人真正去過金門或者真正住過金門在那裡真正了解我們當地這個民眾的這個需求有時候你們從臺灣本島的觀點來看金門來看我們這些離島的縣市事實上是從我不好意思說就是從天元農國的觀點來看我們的離島縣市事實上你們對我們的發展"},{"start":2700.265,"end":2703.627,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2729.622,"end":2742.956,"text":"這個部分是因為在全台灣各個縣市所有的民生用的東西比如說水這是屬於國家應該做的但是在金門這是我們金門縣自己花錢的我們自己花錢還要跟財政部來借錢借錢還有經濟部我們還要還利息然後經濟部後面再電補給我們我們地方政府幫中央政府出錢"},{"start":2753.146,"end":2754.307,"text":"案 ﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案﹚"},{"start":2769.543,"end":2774.885,"text":"事由：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":2793.373,"end":2808.821,"text":"我們今天要求有更好的政策或者是給我們鬆綁但中央政府在今天我看到國發會剛剛的很多回答都還是說這個不適合那個不適合我想這個是非常的不能體恤這個離島縣市這個民情我想今天的這個各位同仁"},{"start":2809.301,"end":2809.421,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":2840.339,"end":2844.318,"text":"接下來我們請提案委員蔡易瑜委員請做提案說明"},{"start":2856.504,"end":2882.174,"text":"謝謝主席那本期就離島建設條例第十條之一來做提案修正提案的一個說明那我們這一條的提案主要是因為現在離島的一個觀光是非常的發展不管是澎湖金門或者是媽祖那大家會到離島觀光除了本身離島有很豐富的天然資源以及很漂亮的一個海港的一個景觀之外"},{"start":2882.674,"end":2896.942,"text":"案、在離島我們也開放他們可以去購買免稅的商品。那很多去離島觀光的免稅商品,他們在那邊買完後,他們可能還要再搭交通船或是搭飛機,那就是必須要把免稅平。"},{"start":2899.263,"end":2902.945,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":2924.577,"end":2939.426,"text":"案、其消費之後他可以透過在臺灣本島對應的商港然後來做這個提貨區的提貨那就是未來我們本島的人到離島旅遊然後去購買美穗商品之後那可以在"},{"start":2940.507,"end":2943.248,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":2963.652,"end":2976.396,"text":"修正是對離島有利,那對本島到離島旅遊的這些官方的客群也是有利,所以我希望大家可以共同來支持我這樣的一個提案,謝謝。"},{"start":2982.81,"end":2999.905,"text":"那接下來我們剛剛給委員會報告我們剛剛國發會的副主委高副主委已經就提案的委員版本來做出報告那我們現在有經濟部財政部交通部原住民委員會"},{"start":3000.966,"end":3024.939,"text":"以及衛生福利部的順利報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。」那本日議程我們討論的事項合併來做詢答委員詢答前依照慣例主席台做幾項的宣告每位委員發言時間本委員會的委員6分鐘必要時加1分那非本委員會4分鐘上午10點半"},{"start":3026.299,"end":3032.564,"text":"結旨發言登記,我們現在首先請登記第一位的陳婷菲委員請做詮答。我們請高副主委。"},{"start":3060.236,"end":3086.955,"text":"委員好副主委我想我在這個4月22號我有我們經濟委員會到台南跟我們一些工業區跟產業園區的一些廠商還有理事長去做了一些座談那其實在這當中目前最重要的一個問題就是缺工對不對沒錯沒錯那這怎麼辦"},{"start":3088.607,"end":3105.268,"text":"案 人力短缺跟人才短缺其實在過去幾年一直都是不僅是台灣而且是各國面對的一些課題那對於缺工的問題當然我們希望還是第一個就是國內這些"},{"start":3107.15,"end":3114.415,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":3135.009,"end":3135.149,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":3162.569,"end":3188.277,"text":"我們雖然現在看到護國神山但是並不是半陶體我們就可以維持我們台灣經濟的成長我們靠的是很多的傳產那面臨我們傳產現在有那麼多我們的一些產業界提出這樣的一個需求絕對不是只有我們開放所謂的中級我們的外籍移工進來而已"},{"start":3189.757,"end":3189.917,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":3214.246,"end":3233.743,"text":"你會不會有這樣的覺得?接不上來。其實跟委員報告,就是說我們會裡面其實有一個跨部會的人才跟人力的協調溝通平台,那中間包括了教育部、勞動部、"},{"start":3237.633,"end":3238.654,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第14期經濟委員會"},{"start":3251.508,"end":3251.868,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3281.528,"end":3301.434,"text":"案,表示這兩三年開了十幾次的會議還是沒有辦法到位。我跟委員報告就是說其實教育部在過去其實已經在全省設了12個區域產學合作的中心那這個區域產學合作的中心裡面事實上就是媒介"},{"start":3302.214,"end":3303.275,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3330.075,"end":3330.875,"text":"案﹚一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3352.024,"end":3378.597,"text":"現在問題是我們有平台然後也有在做這些跨部會的整合也有在做這個開會那為什麼沒有辦法到位這才是問題點呢那所有的產業每一次我們下鄉去了解的時候帶著我們部會下去大家的反應就是沒人沒有人才人力短缺我們找不到工"},{"start":3380.052,"end":3405.441,"text":"這就是事實啊,然後他們明明訂單很多,不敢接,因為接的訂單沒有用。」委員其實這個所謂的那個傳產能力短缺,某個程度上是一個結構性的問題啦,跟我們的一些少子化,然後我們產業的那個人力需求的這些分布,就是比如說有一些高科技可能磁吸了某些人才,"},{"start":3406.161,"end":3409.863,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":3422.649,"end":3422.749,"text":"案 〔廣告〕"},{"start":3443.452,"end":3470.751,"text":"這個轉型之大然後還有智慧化的轉型就是智能化式、全自動化式這些轉型我們都必須面對整個國際情勢的演變跟競爭力這些人才有更多所以我可以跟那個委員報告就是說我們在那個平台裡面其實在過去幾年其實有做了一些突破框架式的一些做法"},{"start":3471.832,"end":3492.543,"text":"案、包括到國外攬財給獎學金、然後在區域設立12個區域這個產學合作中心等等的其實還有我們有一些就是我們我們那個半導體啊學院那個特別條例的這個提出其實我們真的就是面對這種嚴峻的人才跟"},{"start":3493.603,"end":3497.804,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案〉案〈離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案〉案〈離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案〉案〉"},{"start":3521.673,"end":3526.877,"text":"案﹚立法院第11屆第12屆第13條文修正草案﹚立法院第12屆第13條文修正草案﹚立法院第14屆第15條文修正草案"},{"start":3540.626,"end":3548.576,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具 «離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3556.966,"end":3577.034,"text":"他永遠就是一個平台的一個主控者所以當這個平台在進行的當中跨部會協商永遠就是由我們國發會來做主導來做協助然後當我們這個所謂的一個效率跟整個機制沒有出來大家動不了"},{"start":3577.714,"end":3598.48,"text":"事由我拜託我要這兩三年來我們這個平台到底開了幾次會我們做了哪些決定我們做了哪些協助我們跟產業有什麼樣的接軌我們給他什麼樣的一個期待我們這12個點做了哪些人才的一些挹注"},{"start":3599.953,"end":3601.354,"text":"這才是重要,我要這些資料。」"},{"start":3630.038,"end":3630.058,"text":"案。"},{"start":3651.518,"end":3678.877,"text":"我先問一個今天的離島建設條例裡面有談到幾個其中當然有些部分是當然是比較離島一些立委們希望也能夠爭取一些更大的空間那有些涉及到的稅損的問題有些涉及到了健保的一些支付的這些問題那還有一部分跟國發有相關的是涉及到的主管權責特別是重大的這個建設投資計畫的部分"},{"start":3679.817,"end":3690.523,"text":"這個部分如果照委員們通過的話會有產生什麼樣的影響?好,現在我們離島的重大建設投資計畫裡面基本上就是說"},{"start":3692.123,"end":3713.041,"text":"案 現在現有的程序就是由縣市政府提出來經目的施壓主管機關依重大建設投資企劃的那個審核的這個合定的標準然後來合定以後會送這個行政院來合定那其實為什麼要有一個叫做重大的建設投資下合定標準呢因為這個標準裡面會規範一些"},{"start":3716.044,"end":3744.931,"text":"例如最小投資額、土地開發、總量管制、環評、開發限制區等等的。我覺得這個都必須要做一些相關的規範。而且最重要的是說,這個重大建設投資計畫一旦經過核定以後,事實上我們目前的都市計畫及非都土地變更就完全授權給地方縣市政府來核定的。所以現行這些程序上都是可以走的嗎?"},{"start":3745.951,"end":3749.933,"text":"案 、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3771.323,"end":3799.949,"text":"案件,這會影響到整個很多的這個相關的一些包括條件的放寬甚至有些的這個各種的狀況都會可能發生這反而對國家在控管這些重大的建設計畫的時候都會出問題那如果這樣過的話那其他的縣市有沒有可能也參考比照那如果這樣比照的話等於是這個幾乎等同中央地方包括重大的這些的這個分際整個就會失去了是的"},{"start":3800.809,"end":3824.643,"text":"所以我看到這個法案當然我能理解就是離島立委們的爭取的那個也許我們待會在主條的時候可以來做一些討論不過也希望這個持續的多溝通就是說他們所擔憂的應該是地方政府的案子能不能送上來但是如果這個他只要能夠送上來有機會被認定為重大就有機會來的話那就不一定要用修的方式來做處理"},{"start":3825.623,"end":3854.122,"text":"基本上其實我們都是完全尊重縣市政府送上來的提案那中央目的事業主管機關他只是就他的權責做一個review然後再來提到行政院來核定那我剛才有報告說為什麼需要做review因為我們可能要去有一些不宜開發的或是有涉及到環保的這些相關的這些東西其實就國家目的事業主管機關他主管的權責他還是要進行負責啦"},{"start":3855.203,"end":3867.375,"text":"另外第十七條的部分有些未符合的這個他希望做一些減徵未符合免徵的營業稅的條件希望你都做減徵如果照這個通過會有多少的稅損的問題我們請財政部"},{"start":3874.722,"end":3894.066,"text":"我們是初估大概是有6000多萬,最多可以到1.7億元,從以往徵收的情形來判斷。所以會有這樣的稅損的問題。財政部也是持...這部分我們是不建議用這樣的方式來處理。為什麼?因為它,我覺得提案是說對於這個未符合營業稅減免規定的營業人,"},{"start":3897.927,"end":3916.093,"text":"來給予營利事業所得稅的減徵。這個減徵會造成第一個他在離島地區的營業人就產生營利事業所得稅不公平的現象另外一個就是他會造成跟本島的營利事業也變成營利事業所得稅課徵不公平的情形那我們因為營利事業所得稅是我們的國稅"},{"start":3917.313,"end":3936.726,"text":"案件,目前在整個稅收當中,有10%是要給地方統籌分配的。這樣子會產生一個現象,就會變成說這邊減徵只有針對這些特定的營業人減徵,但是這些特定營業人減徵的稅收是來自哪裡?是來自我們整個中央政府的稅收還有各地方政府的稅收。"},{"start":3937.726,"end":3955.831,"text":"變成減少他們的稅收來填補這部分特定營業人的這個這個這個租稅優惠其實這是不公平也不符合中立性的所以我們是不建議用這樣的方式來處理好 了解 那也許我們在主條的時候再來跟委員們做一些溝通是 因為時間有限 那接下來我還是要問一下國發會其實有"},{"start":3957.851,"end":3985.658,"text":"國發會有一些其實我認為很重要的包括現在我們的新生兒的人口數字持續在降低從2018年18到17、16、15那2022年到13已經破不到14萬了那這個大概也是台灣的一個很重要的危機那之前其實大家就一直在要求國發會作為政府的大腦應該去思考這件事情的處理副主委要不要講一下國發會這幾年有做了哪些的一些政策的建議跟努力"},{"start":3988.059,"end":4012.746,"text":"案,當然就是人口是整個這個國家這個戰略裡面非常重要的部分可是就這些少子化的這些對策的這個計畫其實在行政院裡面是由林萬一政委在做統籌那幕僚單位是衛福部那其實我想委員也知道其實政府做了很多尤其是預算已經每年已經編到破1000億元了然後"},{"start":4016.207,"end":4031.604,"text":"其實也做了一些蠻多的一些預額的減輕預額負擔的一些措施那當然也不可諱言就是說不是我知道政府很努力但是從結論來看其實成效所以包括連日本韓國也都"},{"start":4032.345,"end":4035.187,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4056.698,"end":4067.62,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":4086.283,"end":4087.664,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4106.533,"end":4134.767,"text":"反映在整個薪資的成長上面我們來看跟臺灣跟美國日本韓國相比的時候我們經濟產業這幾年都很不錯都比這些國家好但是我們在受雇人員的報酬的分配比例上面美國日本都有達到五成以上那韓國都還比我們略高但是我們的其實顯然就是我們在對於獲利的時候他的這個分配到了受雇人員的部分其實是不夠的"},{"start":4135.467,"end":4154.508,"text":"我認為這個部分國家也用政策的高度上要去做更多的一個調控讓更多企業的獲利的部分能夠回到讓薪資的調升不然這個恐怕都會是台灣一樣遇到很重要的問題就是人民的他感覺到就是說好像這個所有的經濟狀況很好可是為什麼好像薪資上沒有感覺"},{"start":4155.049,"end":4182.322,"text":"特別是在更多的一些比較基層的人員他的感受特別深刻那或者是在產業別幾乎產業別裡面看起來幾乎是在這些的半導體產業鏈電子資通訊的產業等等的部分的產業狀況當然相當的好但是那個相對的波動感就會強烈他對一般的這些的部分有些就相對低你看有些甚至於跟這個韓國比的話我們都其實都偏低的"},{"start":4182.822,"end":4206.174,"text":"所以我認為這個政府要去整體思考這樣才能夠去讓國家的這個好的經濟狀況均衡的分配下去而且不是在有這個相對的差別的感非常強烈我認為這個也是國發會應該要去努力的好不好我們期待新的國發會高副主委也繼續留任我也希望未來在這邊大家一起努力讓台灣在這幾個問題上面得到好的解決好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4214.383,"end":4232.952,"text":"接下來我們請謝依鳳委員請做詢談。謝謝主席。我想要請高副主委跟林次長。我們請以上兩位。"},{"start":4240.382,"end":4258.749,"text":"我想請問一下就是說現在我們其實在所謂的資料中心三大資料中心好像都即將要在台灣來設立那我們知道說AI其實因為最近的發展使得資料中心變成一個高耗能的設施"},{"start":4261.87,"end":4284.819,"text":"有可能說對於我們的就是說未來可能AI中心設立以後我看到相關的報導說到有可能會用掉就是將近37億度的電那佔我們太陽能光電的總發電量的50%那到底因為畢竟我們的綠電目前到底是不是充足的"},{"start":4285.239,"end":4301.23,"text":"以及未來如果資料中心的生成的時候那大家也提到像國際主要的國家都希望這個就是資料中心能夠使用綠電的情況下那未來台灣對於相關的規劃是如何?"},{"start":4304.189,"end":4319.66,"text":"謝謝委員我想剛剛你提到那個資料中心耗電的狀況跟AI的一個這個關聯性我想主要是AI主要是生成式的AI在做基本的這個學習運算的時候會耗很多電但是我們現在說"},{"start":4320.601,"end":4325.505,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4350.103,"end":4355.746,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4378.677,"end":4383.943,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4394.275,"end":4394.295,"text":"案。"},{"start":4410.148,"end":4429.374,"text":"將來各個產業都會應用到AI的技術去提升它整個的產業發展模式跟它的整個的生產力。所以呢其實AI對台灣用電的影響的這一塊呢其實我覺得可能必須要考慮的就是我們在那個應該就是在"},{"start":4431.815,"end":4434.618,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4453.257,"end":4455.059,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4468.813,"end":4492.211,"text":"我剛剛提到部分說是113年我們將近413億度的這個綠電那未來我們在這個太陽光電跟離岸風電事實上每年都有很明確的這個發展的一個這個目標比如說我們這個離岸風力的一個發展每年都會將近1.5個GW的一個這樣的量設置進去我想這個部分會來滿足我們現在優先需要這個綠電的這些產業的需求"},{"start":4494.898,"end":4515.328,"text":"那準經濟部長郭志輝他說就是核能是乾淨能源那你們怎麼看我想核能是乾淨在全球上應該是很明確的一個這個發展的一個趨勢那未來是不是有可能用到核電如果要全面性的降低發電成本的時候"},{"start":4516.411,"end":4540.16,"text":"我們對任何的能源都是多元化而且是持續的關注不過核電在台灣它有幾個關鍵的問題必須解決一個是核能安全是能夠完全確保另外一個部分就是核廢料是不是可以做適當的處理當然社會共識非常重要這幾個關鍵的前提如果能夠有適當的處理當然可以去持續關注這樣的一個發展"},{"start":4541.471,"end":4553.374,"text":"那對於這樣的部分,那行政院會提出相關的修法嗎?我想我們應該是要先做這個評估分析,再會去做後續的一個討論吧。我想這個過程應該是這樣嚴謹的來做處理會比較好。"},{"start":4564.402,"end":4592.722,"text":"我請問一下高福那個像你們在講的就是說生成式的AI那生成式的AI未來如果就是說就是像這些軟體的發展在產生的時候有可能會在資料收集的時候會用到就是原創的這個版權或者是相關的著作權那這個部分未來怎麼界定以及你們國發會是不是已經做好相關的就是修法的那個"},{"start":4593.402,"end":4621.505,"text":"案。」 跟那個委員報告就是說因為我們要因應那個深層次AI的那個出現其實我們在行政院裡面有一個跨部會的AI小組那法制小組那之前是由羅秉成羅政委跟我們本會主委還有還有那個那個國科會主委共同聲那所以這個AI小組裡面他有針對法制面比如說基本法"},{"start":4622.389,"end":4625.392,"text":"案 及第十三條條文修正草案 案 及第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4644.273,"end":4671.479,"text":"還有一個就是就是如果深層市的AI沒有經過就是內容沒有經過監管或者控制的時候有可能會危害就是社會的穩定跟政權例如說像美國前總統川普跟被捕就是現在在網路上有出現的照片就是用AI做成的就是他川普被捕或者是普丁入獄這樣子的情況那有可能會影響到總統大選"},{"start":4673.479,"end":4694.006,"text":"那像這樣子的情況,未來怎麼樣子因應呢?有關於這個就是打詐、假訊息這一部分其實因為這也是深層式AI的一部分對,這部分也會在那個小組裡面由各組織相關的部會,它會提出一些因應的做法這樣子"},{"start":4694.546,"end":4719.038,"text":"那你們現在進行的情況是如何?我們已經開過兩次的高層的會議然後因為這個平台裡面下面還有工作小組那工作小組是組的單位就是國科會那國科會他就是說他基本法要統籌各相關部會針對AI對他們的這些包括剛才委員講到的這個就是假的那些訊息會影響選舉的對他們都會有在處理這個課題這樣子好謝謝"},{"start":4728.138,"end":4751.805,"text":"案 。接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。請這個國畫會的副主委。我們再請高副主委。今天交通部是代表什麼人來?我們交通部。盧副市長是不是?"},{"start":4760.302,"end":4778.128,"text":"委員黃高副還有這個副市長早安早那個布袋港要設置免稅品的這個提貨區這個國發會應該是贊成的嘛對不對我們每次熱箭齊城你們要要積極啦那特別要這個交通部是因為我剛才看你們的這個說明裡面說到你說這個要設這個提貨區啊"},{"start":4790.233,"end":4804.233,"text":"他的理科服務中心的民國110年的五月十六號已經正式啟用然後你說離島建設條例第十條之一修正通過之後你們行警局要找財政部去"},{"start":4805.555,"end":4805.895,"text":"談論相關硬體及軟體設施。」"},{"start":4824.227,"end":4851.034,"text":"報告委員,這個部分最主要是牽涉到業者他們的意願。那我們當初在設定新的旅運中心成立的時候,其實就已經有把相關的區域已經規劃好了。那就看他們多少時間需要進駐的時間,然後我們會跟這個相關的比如說關務署這邊來協調他們的軟硬體的設備跟動線怎麼安排。現在時程就是說修法嘛對不對。修法看起來委員會這邊很快通過就到院會了啦。"},{"start":4851.354,"end":4862.568,"text":"我現在問你就是,院會通過之後你大概需要多少時間?你的流程你剛剛講了嘛,對不對?你都有步驟了嘛,對不對?是。那大概你預計大概要多久?修法完之後大概多久?布袋槓可以看到這個免稅區的這個提供區?我幫你來,幫你來,稍微站起來"},{"start":4867.769,"end":4892.274,"text":"這還是要牽涉到那個業者的意願他們因為我們理解說因為目前的離島免稅店其實有兩家嘛那他們從他們的進駐然後再到這個相關的人員的配置還有整個動線然後他要申請相關的一個這個許可這個程序上可能現在目前我們在硬體面我們可以很快準備好但是軟體的流程面這一部分可能還需要多一點時間"},{"start":4893.334,"end":4893.354,"text":"案。"},{"start":4923.114,"end":4924.516,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4940.789,"end":4967.029,"text":"延伸完之後北門車站又接了全台灣唯一的高山鐵路就是阿里山的鐵道7月1號全線通車了你看這個多漂亮一條線從泰埔高鐵站到北門車站北門車站已經是嘉義市非常有名的觀光區了現在又拉上去阿里山這條線太漂亮了然後剛剛我們在講布袋港布袋港就是這個泰堡這邊旁邊一點點就是我們的故宮南院"},{"start":4968.234,"end":4983.743,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":4996.941,"end":5025.675,"text":"所以請交通部跟這個國發會要幫忙要促成這件事情好不好當然下個月下個月嘉義市政府就會把這個評估報告送到交通部跟行政院請國發會跟這個交通部可以支持好不好當然這裡面可能牽扯到很多經費的問題我們會盡量去爭取請大家要支持這個案子好謝謝那那個交通部先請回好了我們請這個經濟部次長來林次長那請經濟部次長高富你先留著高富你先留著來來"},{"start":5027.458,"end":5047.415,"text":"委員好,我們來看一下金門的金水。金水2013年開始,它從廈門飲水,它花了多少錢?15億的工程款,一年的利率高達數千萬,已經造成金門縣政府財政非常非常大的一個負擔了。這事情應該"},{"start":5050.721,"end":5078.746,"text":"經濟部有討論過,他們現在嚴重到什麼程度?對現庫是很大的負擔,對金門人是一個很大的負擔。他們現在只能去跟土銀、跟永豐銀借錢,然後人家一直在催債啊,一直在催債。可是對金門引進的鹽水一天用掉多少?兩萬五千噸,用水是非常重要的。有沒有可能我們今天,欸副總,我們今天討論離島的這個建設基金,有沒有可能離島建設基金前而去補助金水?"},{"start":5079.707,"end":5079.727,"text":"案。"},{"start":5098.183,"end":5121.917,"text":"案 後的話,這部分在行政院決定是不能夠來納入這個差額補貼的一個狀況這樣子。現在有兩個問題,我先問你,先看下一張。我們不是在講不要一國兩制嗎?像我住在嘉義,嘉義也沒有嘉義水啊。住在基隆也沒有基隆水,台北也沒有台北水,都是台水對不對?為什麼金水他們自己蓋一個飲水工程?"},{"start":5122.921,"end":5130.07,"text":"自己就要去花15億,叫兩個解決方案喔,叫兩個解決方案,欸聽我講聽我講,兩個解決方案嘛,把精水納到台水裡面去,"},{"start":5131.311,"end":5132.271,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":5157.302,"end":5166.193,"text":"案 完成之後沒有辦法資本化那這個在條例的規定裡面就不能夠來補助這個差異是在這邊目前我們從這個80如果我沒有記錯的話從八十九八十"},{"start":5175.925,"end":5179.772,"text":"2013年開始,對89年到112年我們已經補助了46億46.4億的那個差額補助給精水公司2013年開始15億的工程款你補助多少?"},{"start":5188.796,"end":5200.14,"text":"這個部分我請我們那個水利署跟委員報告,是大陸飲水的工程費的部分,飲水工程費是中央來支持的,13億,那剛剛委員主席報告,13億的85%,也就大概10億多。15億補是85%,補這個13億。對。"},{"start":5210.823,"end":5213.606,"text":"案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":5228.72,"end":5252.396,"text":"案 並沒有說他後面他不用編列預算方式他是用去借款的方式所以他那個借款的利息部分那其實在院這邊都討論過了也就是在他在建設那時候的利息部分這個部分我們有差價補貼OK但是他資本化之後呢也就在營運之後正式營水之後那個部分是屬於營運的營運的那個部分就沒有辦法去"},{"start":5252.856,"end":5255.299,"text":"案 、第十三條條文修正草案 、第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":5269.837,"end":5271.399,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":5290.182,"end":5305.257,"text":"主要是說台水公司目前本身也是虧損相當大是借款那我們想台水現在現階段重要的推動工作是把它的營運做到更好那基本上如果說進來是會使台水的這個營運做得更好當然我們樂觀其成"},{"start":5305.677,"end":5324.13,"text":"但是現在台水公司是一個這個嚴重虧損的情形底下這樣進來是沒有辦法這個發揮更好的一個效率可是你就講一國兩制啊對不對事實上根本沒辦法沒有一國兩制啊該補助的我們一定會去補助啦對來來來那所以今天我們要幫他爭取這是"},{"start":5325.154,"end":5328.815,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":5350.723,"end":5361.111,"text":"他只要每年的營運虧損符合相關規定都可以來申請,而且我們都用最快的速度來做相關的補助。好謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答"},{"start":5394.375,"end":5402.64,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請國發會、副主委、還有園民會、衛福部,兩位請上台。先請教衛福部還有園民會,離島建設條例第十三條,"},{"start":5422.629,"end":5439.489,"text":"現行條文規定是65歲以上離島第七居民前面健康保險對象為因自付之保險費由中央政府編列預算支應。」這個實施很多年了。那這個衛福部的報告"},{"start":5440.857,"end":5461.528,"text":"當中也提到,因為現行的條文是寫由中央政府編列預算,那衛福部的報告裡面,早期是由行政院,後來就由離島基金,行政院合併離島基金,103年起由衛福部編列預算,沒有錯吧?"},{"start":5465.107,"end":5489.547,"text":"這個到你的報告裡面有提到年齡、平均移民、殺妓、手小這些。如果我們看國民年金法,他是55歲。軍公、公教人員的退休之前輔系原住民是55歲。"},{"start":5492.353,"end":5499.815,"text":"案 ﹚立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":5521.34,"end":5547.678,"text":"很重要的條文就是原住民族基本法這個24條還有26條這個都很好好我們現在看國發會的報告裡面他希望本會尊重目的事業主管機關這個衛生福利部及原住民族委員會特別提到原住民族委員會因為今天的修正"},{"start":5548.807,"end":5566.978,"text":"條文有提到原住民要降低五十五歲。」我們看這個,這個,這個,原民會定的補助原住民全民健康保險費十四要點,這個是"},{"start":5571.021,"end":5598.707,"text":"你們的要點當然是87年所定的這個衛福部使用的哪一年好像有點落差事實上是87年定的這個要點但是要跟大家衛福部聯名會了解因為我過去是在台灣省政府服務全民健保一開始之後"},{"start":5601.187,"end":5624.686,"text":"這個規定,陳政府那時候的原住民行政級就開始了。只不過後來精神就由中央來定。我們看這個要點。所以,人民會這邊當然不是你管的業務了。怎麼會派你來?應該是那個社會福利處。這個藍瑜,我們就講藍瑜。"},{"start":5630.998,"end":5639.905,"text":"案：審查：事由：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":5660.101,"end":5687.914,"text":"事實上目前65歲以上的現行條文都是由衛福部來編列預算如果加上大家如果各位委員都能夠支持年滿55歲即原住民身份的話那就有中央目的事業主管機關也就是說這個原住民的部分就由衛福部來編列這個其他的就由衛福部來編列"},{"start":5689.505,"end":5713.406,"text":"如果這樣子規定,這個要沒有使用?可以嗎?處長。當然這個政策方向我們原則上就尊重委員的提案,但是就是這樣的文字是不是很精確的可以反映就是委員剛才的意思,可能還要再確認一下,因為這樣寫好像還有一些模糊的空間。好,那個衛福部。"},{"start":5717.19,"end":5733.942,"text":"謝謝委員那衛福部這邊還是要做個說明就是說剛剛委員有講過說我們的書面報告裡面其實從102年通過65歲以上我想大家都可以看到那個數字是非常清楚的在102年的時候補助的話只有花了1.2億"},{"start":5735.163,"end":5738.685,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":5761.916,"end":5789.768,"text":"那你意思說你們的政策也要改嗎?衛福部主管的、其他的?很多啊,長照啊、腳鴨啊,也要改嗎?先不談這個啦,好不好?你那邊都沒有改啊,對不對?抱歉,跟委員說明一下,事實上在我們的國民年金法裡面也是有大院所通過的條文裡面也是要逐年做檢討,那這個部分原民會也在做檢討。你回去跟部長,新的部長報告啦,部長要換了吧?如果你要改,"},{"start":5791.954,"end":5803.652,"text":"他不會同意啦那個副主委是這樣的修正因為畢竟這個法律的主管機關是你是可以嗎"},{"start":5804.783,"end":5824.583,"text":"基本上這個55歲以上的原住民免納這個保險費除了經費的來源之外其實還會有涉及到整個全民健保制度在那個會不會有其他的跟全民健保制度沒有關係了"},{"start":5825.684,"end":5843.596,"text":"案,以及前面建保的制度,誰要來誰負擔這個費用而已啊?會有一些,比如說區域,因為我們現在是特別就離島地區,那有沒有其他的援引等等的效果,我覺得可能要尊重衛福部的意見,然後衛福部因為現在520"},{"start":5845.057,"end":5847.64,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":5857.405,"end":5883.278,"text":"我現在的要修正動議是要由園民會所以不是要由我用離島建設我們尊重衛福部的意見衛福部沒有意見我們國發會尊重最後離島建設條例第十六條什麼時候公布施行的?89年嘛對不對?這個300億什麼時候開始的?"},{"start":5885.947,"end":5885.967,"text":"案 。"},{"start":5900.62,"end":5922.295,"text":"所以這個部分都是要去檢討的89年了到現在然後沒有錢了還在300億這個條文已經形同稀釋了所以應該修啊修得更好更完整來因應整個離島第七實際的需要好不好好謝謝好謝謝好"},{"start":5930.785,"end":5947.444,"text":"案 行政部門,因為我們今天的條文總共有七條,在詢答當中會討論出有一些方向出來,我也建議待會我們在實質條文討論的時候,你們聽到"},{"start":5950.808,"end":5967.562,"text":"案：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第13條條文修正草案：立法院第14會期經濟委員會第15會期經濟委員會第16會期經濟委員會第17會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會第18會期經濟委員會"},{"start":5970.484,"end":5973.006,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":6000.444,"end":6000.464,"text":"案。"},{"start":6018.557,"end":6046.169,"text":"副主委你好副主委你好副主委您是事務官是所以520之後您還會繼續吧應該會繼續是OK這樣很好這樣子我們在520之前的最後一次委員會質詢的時候就會更有意義是來我們今天因為在討論離島建設條例相關的部分那講到離島建設條例我們就不免要講到離島建設基金"},{"start":6046.989,"end":6072.036,"text":"那離島建設基金我覺得連年虧損短促保管運用似乎有些失當依據離島建設條例第十六條規定為加速離島建設要設置離島建設基金那基金總額不得低於台幣300億元由中央政府從民國90年到99年分10年割入這應該沒有錯那我會看到從那個"},{"start":6074.077,"end":6074.557,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":6101.957,"end":6108.584,"text":"案 及第十四條條文修正草案 案 及第十七條條文修正草案 案 及第十八條條文修正草案 案 及第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":6125.749,"end":6153.522,"text":"基本上就是因為那個條例就是有十年就是因為從八九十年開始是八九十年開始它撥補了三百億那其實我們每一年的大概離島建設基金大概都的投資大概是八九億到十億不相上下那所以它經過時間的經過以後它到基金就會用完了我想問一下像這樣的那個非營業基金的時候不是正常應該有永續經營的方式是會比較妥適嗎"},{"start":6154.562,"end":6154.582,"text":"案 。"},{"start":6172.029,"end":6174.111,"text":"案 當立法院第11屆第11屆第12條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":6195.185,"end":6195.365,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":6213.312,"end":6231.06,"text":"案、禁門除外。」我們後來也發現這些離島受補助的電動機車他們應該在離島使用可是有相當的一個量它是在非他們的區域被發現了像我們這邊簡單講禁門大概有超過16輛都在台灣"},{"start":6235.782,"end":6264.443,"text":"案 被查到交通違規的狀態,再來是被查到交通違規的狀態,那這個部分是表示我們在使用這樣的基金當中的時候,後續的管理其實有欠周延。是,我們的確有發現這樣的情況,所以我們目前就是在把這些車輛其實在做一些全數追回這個補助的當中,就是我們在追查當中。"},{"start":6265.484,"end":6268.866,"text":"案 。您520之後還會繼續留任,所以我要特別去講一件事情,這3月25號我特別質詢了一個就是我們"},{"start":6288.878,"end":6312.104,"text":"國發會去投資國發基金投資的趙遠這個案子。結果你們給我的一個回應當中其實我本來上次質詢的時候我本來還講說你們可能是碰到詐騙集團了結果你們的回應給我之後我真的覺得你們可能不是碰到詐騙集團而是因為你們可能是里外呼應你知道為什麼"},{"start":6312.944,"end":6313.525,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":6328.325,"end":6328.565,"text":"公告 。」"},{"start":6350.766,"end":6367.549,"text":"結果本來要讓你們有兩席董事進去的都沒有進去你們就先被減資了被減資了之後呢然後你們才開始擔任他們的董事擔任他們的董事之後呢你們再一次被減資"},{"start":6370.302,"end":6382.314,"text":"再次減至50.05百分比那整個的虧損一億多那這麼高比例的一個狀態的時候呢你們回應我的狀況"},{"start":6384.485,"end":6385.045,"text":"我沒有辦法理解"},{"start":6406.823,"end":6408.364,"text":"就職,包括108年1月31日,108年4月30日,"},{"start":6422.765,"end":6438.611,"text":"通過投資兩億零四百九十六萬元這三個時間點都在一百零八年五月九號之前所以你們如果真的要進兆元的時候你們都有時間去要求"},{"start":6440.253,"end":6466.916,"text":"你們的董事應該要進去這家公司怎麼會用這樣子的答案來回應我所以我本來覺得可能你們還是被騙了你們的回答方式讓我覺得是你們是裡應外合欸副主委可不可以回答一下報告委員因為我不督導國發基金那我們國發基金的副執密在這邊我可以請他回應可以"},{"start":6469.509,"end":6483.387,"text":"委員提到的就是我們在5月20號參與投資兆圓公司。因為剛剛委員提到往前推40天的部分在5月初,但是因為我們5月20號才實際撥款投資,所以正式成為兆圓公司的股東。"},{"start":6483.587,"end":6507.304,"text":"拜託你們又不是第一次在投資公司你們要投資公司之前要把條件都講好啊所以我講了三個時間點你們108年1月30號就開始評估符合國家產業發展的方向所以你們不是5月20號才開始進去欸你們之前都不用評估嗎?評估當中的時候沒有條件設置嗎?你們這樣在管理這樣的基金我覺得其實是非常的有問題的"},{"start":6508.785,"end":6528.752,"text":"然後在之後你們在回答我說你們在還沒有當董事之前的時候你們有向他們要相關的財務業務相關資料你們覺得這樣就已經達到你們的責任是這樣子嗎?然後董事進去之後的時候又發生減資的一個狀態你們回答我的狀態是說國發基金有請公司要加強財務規劃"},{"start":6530.902,"end":6533.503,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":6555.014,"end":6558.696,"text":"案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案"},{"start":6572.184,"end":6572.204,"text":"案 。"},{"start":6601.377,"end":6616.512,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請呂一林委員請做詢答謝謝主席請高副主委我們再請高副主委"},{"start":6622.745,"end":6648.735,"text":"委員黃副主委今天你們共組委去參加了陳建仁的內閣的行政院的最後一場的這個院會下個禮拜他就會成為行政院的秘書長也作為我們行政團隊跟產業之間的溝通橋樑跟整個統合協調各幕僚單位這個外界都帶抱著很大期待他接下來的表現但是國發會"},{"start":6650.396,"end":6669.154,"text":"在這個四年的時間協助了蔡英文總統在規劃2050年的近鄰轉型的這個政策。副主委即將上任的這個經濟部的這個總部長我們郭智輝部長他對於核電的一些說法您知道嗎?"},{"start":6671.348,"end":6689.68,"text":"他表示說,核電若是要研議必須要經過全民的認同。同時他也坦言說,這個未來的新能源這個會作為半導體產業缺電的一個解方。所以請問副主委。"},{"start":6690.421,"end":6702.758,"text":"這是不是透露出下一個我們的新政府對於能源政策有這個調整的空間而且你支持這個新的經濟部長的說法跟支持嗎?"},{"start":6704.136,"end":6725.291,"text":"報告委員,我想新的內閣對於能源政策應該會有一個更創新而且更明確的一個做法,因為的確啦,就是因為我們現在其實隨著AI產業﹖所以對於能源政策有調整的空間嗎?這個說法你支持嗎?"},{"start":6727.898,"end":6742.668,"text":"我應該就是我覺得人員政策應該都是要滾動調整的所以要調整我本席為什麼會這樣子說就是在國發會2022年的3月帶著所有的相關部會正式的公布了台灣2050年"},{"start":6744.689,"end":6756.453,"text":"案 與整個政策的總說明希望2050年的能源配比可以達到再生能源在60%到70%氫氣的話9%到12%火力的話20%到27%水力發電是1%的這個願景可以降低了整個台灣二氧化碳的排放而且在2025年"},{"start":6768.456,"end":6774.223,"text":"案 中期的能源整個政策的目標才會達成,但是現在我們的配比20%的綠電都還沒完成一半,所以是有調整的空間對不對?"},{"start":6783.473,"end":6783.493,"text":"案 。"},{"start":6811.866,"end":6813.988,"text":"案 及第十三條條文修正草案 案 及第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":6836.144,"end":6851.072,"text":"案、五條條文修正草案、五條條是火力發電的燃煤發電是百分之三十再生能源是百分之二十這樣子的再生能源我們看到的就是說2025年要來達成目標這個是很難的結果我們的主委說2026年可以達成那整個綠電的這個目標都一直相當大的落後所以這個等於是跳票了那所以我們來講說這個八成的火力發電這個國發會是主要我們"},{"start":6865.419,"end":6868.902,"text":"國發會認為說整個發電是主要的電力來源所以我們認為說天然氣跟煤炭我們都是向國外來購買所以進口的成本會相當高會受到國際的情勢所干擾所以才導致台電財損會越來越大"},{"start":6890.957,"end":6917.057,"text":"這也就是台電的財損惡化才會造成這個基礎設施才會越來越沒有辦法到位才是停電缺電最大問題會頻頻的這個來發生這是最重要的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說我們整個能源政策這能源的情勢是環環相扣的台電他如果是賠錢的話供電就一定會不穩"},{"start":6918.198,"end":6922.701,"text":"案、第七條及第八條之一條文修正草案、第八條之一條文修正草案、第八條之一條文修正草案、"},{"start":6937.671,"end":6941.133,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":6964.906,"end":6968.278,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第13條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":6970.908,"end":6971.849,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":6999.028,"end":7014.152,"text":"四、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":7023.914,"end":7024.735,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":7041.309,"end":7055.462,"text":"案 ：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第13條條文修正草案 ：審查：立法院第14次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全"},{"start":7065.951,"end":7074.993,"text":"就是要整個臺灣都是要太陽能板才鋪設才有辦法做到這非常不實際所以本席在這邊要邀請你們可以像比照臺灣可以比照芬蘭在這個庭藝的合一廠跟這個封存的核四廠的原子來建置第三代的這個壓水反應爐跟新型的這個核電廠它的安全係數跟它的發電這個效率"},{"start":7094.198,"end":7096.882,"text":"可以大大的提升而渴望可以抑制這個電價對不對"},{"start":7099.153,"end":7099.673,"text":"案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案﹚"},{"start":7133.257,"end":7135.418,"text":"謝謝。接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答。我們再請高副主委。"},{"start":7169.29,"end":7187.325,"text":"陳委員長缺貨人問題很嚴重其他鄰國包括日本跟韓國他們都充分利用中高齡的就業人口你看我們中高齡的勞參率比起南韓、新加坡、日本是差很多特別是65歲以上"},{"start":7188.496,"end":7210.396,"text":"案 只有9.2,南韓已經高了我們的4倍,新加坡是我們接近4倍,日本也是我們的大概3倍多。那我們怎麼樣去,現在65歲以上,大家體力各方面的條件都還不錯,對不對?他們也有意願,只是說這個誘因不夠。"},{"start":7211.363,"end":7215.246,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":7222.027,"end":7248.389,"text":"我同意那個委員的看法我想我們之前在那個中小企業那個條例裡面其實我們有加薪可以那個加成底稅那個其實也是措施之一啦那的確還是要有更多的做法你要想一些對策做法然後叫各部會去執行嘛或者跨部會來協調包括財政部從輸出的優惠不過有些企業要聘用這些中高齡就業者"},{"start":7249.33,"end":7254.637,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":7267.293,"end":7285.882,"text":"目前的例數不是我督導的,那當然就是520以後也許會重新分工啦。對,你們可能要跟新助理再建議一下,這個你看這個勞動商業率不管是65歲以上60到64、15到19,我們都比其他鄰國都還低很多,所以這個代表沒有充分利用。"},{"start":7286.618,"end":7286.638,"text":"案。"},{"start":7304.463,"end":7306.305,"text":"案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會第13條條文修正草案案﹚"},{"start":7326.724,"end":7328.185,"text":"另外五道現在產業你知道是哪五道嗎?"},{"start":7343.612,"end":7370.688,"text":"五大信賴產業,是的。您知道嗎?我當然知道。我當然知道。對,針對五大信賴產業怎麼樣去推動,怎麼去落實,去協助五大信賴產業的發展,包括資安、人工智慧、半導體、兵工,等等,你都要有詳細的計畫來推動,這也是跨部會的。另外晶圓店,我考慮到這個問題就是地緣政治的問題,"},{"start":7371.989,"end":7388.729,"text":"案,則是對海上供應鏈這個壓力,特別是中國的因素,很多在中國投資的必須要重新去思考他投資的目標國,很多是新南向政策,甚至有些是回國投資,包括經營鏈,出售中國廠。"},{"start":7389.87,"end":7410.798,"text":"而擴大在台的資本支出。」像這樣以前我們有一個專法對不對那專法已經到期了嘛是那有沒有可能再重新啟動另外一波讓這個境外資金匯回能夠在台灣擴大投資就是原本在中國投資的台商第二波的想要再回來的擴大資本投資的"},{"start":7411.258,"end":7436.095,"text":"案,有沒有再重新啟動專法,或者用更便捷的稅制,讓他們可以達到這個目標,可以很順利、很快地把他們的這個在台的這個投資能夠迅速到位?」這個副主委您的看法是?我想那個境外資金回流這部分我們可能要考慮到,因為現在國內的超額儲蓄每年是有三兆的。"},{"start":7436.857,"end":7452.547,"text":"那如果資金、油資氾濫這個問題如果我們可能要尋求一些解決對策以後你要投入公件啦,就是說我們現在很多的受刑業那麼多的油資,尤其在受刑業"},{"start":7453.087,"end":7462.15,"text":"案,為何不導入……我一而再再來三地強調,要把受請者之餘的油資導入公共建設,那國傑會出那麼多錢嗎?委員我們這個其實我們有召開過跨部會的會議,那我們有針對油資怎麼樣去導入一些公建或是甚至設宅,我們大概有初步研議的方向。具體去落實,就是說速度太慢,早就知道這個問題,國內油資太多,操作廚具過多。"},{"start":7481.016,"end":7482.356,"text":"案、如何使用這些草案的程序。」"},{"start":7504.102,"end":7504.122,"text":"案 。"},{"start":7523.966,"end":7528.287,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":7551.352,"end":7578.51,"text":"案 或是經檢版或特定產業你要配合五大信賴產業如果五大信賴產業在國外在中國同時願意回來的話你應該有一個專法這個比較經檢版的專法特別針對五大信賴產業可以嗎我想委員的那個我們可以來研議另外青年培力工作站這個"},{"start":7580.339,"end":7602.301,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":7603.937,"end":7628.217,"text":"根委員報告,我們是希望說在全台灣各地都能有青年培力工作站,包括離島偏鄉,那這個原因呢?你的目標太過抽象,全島各地,你要各鄉啊,要投入多少人力、多少資源,你都要很明確,每一個鄉有一鄉一特色,然後你要這個鄉,比如說高雄市有38區,每一個區"},{"start":7631.178,"end":7657.54,"text":"每一個區的特色,你們怎麼去發展?怎麼去導引?當然是全國都要有這個培地站,但是你要有工作目標,要很明確,不太抽象。跟委員報告,我們目前,因為青年培地工作站才剛開始兩三年,我們目前的做法是先在各縣市,先以各縣市比較均衡發展為主。所以各縣市在主導?不是你們主導?"},{"start":7658.661,"end":7658.781,"text":"案 ﹚審查﹚"},{"start":7666.892,"end":7685.125,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":7695.682,"end":7718.491,"text":"案,除了青年培力工作站之外,其實我們還有另外一個就是說創生計劃的部分在我們非都會區的部分也非常多。在北高雄有八個區,你們青年培力工作站設了幾站?投入多少資源?然後地方創生相關的執行狀況在我的選區你能不能做一個整理?"},{"start":7719.131,"end":7722.314,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":7748.527,"end":7755.094,"text":"案。接下來陳昌明委員請做巡檔。"},{"start":7772.765,"end":7799.21,"text":"副委員長副主委好那剛剛邱委員談到地方的創生他講了一句話我非常的認同雖然不屬於同個黨派但是地方創生我從頭到尾就跟你們講不能用那個放煙火式的喔來了很漂亮開個咖啡館大家去剪彩喔就非常的高興結果那些店你去看"},{"start":7800.558,"end":7826.418,"text":"大概剩下不到一半的店還在開因為做生意一定要有商機在你才有辦法維持繼續下去那我一直強調國化會的地方創生當然資源是在各部會但是我只拜託你國化會如果有一個地方創生才當之地方提出來提出來一定要做好的規劃選擇好的地點"},{"start":7829.68,"end":7852.129,"text":"所以剛剛邱委員跟我們都感覺到你們都在製作六都會六都的地方要特別製作那在管制委的時候我有問到我說希望你們要編列給地方創新一種規劃的報告你們經會一定要來補治但是現在到底有沒有列進去"},{"start":7853.53,"end":7855.611,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":7883.73,"end":7884.01,"text":"案﹚立法院議員"},{"start":7911.135,"end":7911.155,"text":"案。"},{"start":7926.778,"end":7939.933,"text":"根委員報告其實委員的建議其實我們有在研究好不好並不是說什麼在研究剛剛指揮長說有偏略預算了你來跟我講在研究根委員報告這分兩個部分齁我們是我講規劃報告"},{"start":7942.595,"end":7956.203,"text":"對,規劃會的部分我們現在正在研究做的方式就是說到底是由縣政府還是說由我們這邊來統籌這個我們正在研究中剛剛跟委員報告剛剛副主委的意思是說對於地方創生統籌的經費是由國安會這邊已經統籌編列的不是,我一直強調"},{"start":7968.689,"end":7971.971,"text":"案﹚立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第13條條文修正草案案﹚"},{"start":7990.083,"end":7990.103,"text":"案。"},{"start":8010.331,"end":8010.351,"text":"案。"},{"start":8026.874,"end":8039.873,"text":"我推動了幾個參與生,然後光光的在經濟裡面,但是規劃報告要寫好,規劃的經費請你不用花多少錢就能做得好。用頭腦想一想就好。好不好?"},{"start":8041.909,"end":8061.947,"text":"再來今天討論到離島建設條例那離島的收到地理位置資源的分配我們真的要全力支持但是裡面我又看到一點那個無自來水基地區我就特別把它調出來全國自來水的普及率95.67%"},{"start":8064.89,"end":8079.32,"text":"案。」那離島地區是94.55、馬祖地區是86.87、澎湖地區是92.91。那我想到苗栗縣我就覺得我很可憐,我全力的爭取。"},{"start":8080.16,"end":8106.988,"text":"案、七十幾年來在我當立委的時候大概從65%我就一直步的推動苗栗新的自來水現在目前達到87.23%但是跟全國的普及率95.6G還差了一大截苗栗可憐在哪裡離一潭水庫都供給給台中再用的自來水、工業用水"},{"start":8107.788,"end":8129.205,"text":"明德水庫以前是供給那個不是永和水庫是供給新竹科學園區現在我們地方產業已經慢慢發達已經回來但是普及率很低啊但是現在都在邊緣的地區啊你們當務成本要60萬以下才能送得進去去評評"},{"start":8130.606,"end":8158.301,"text":"那我只要議一點那個水利市的防護市長自來水你廠長陪我下去那我只要問一件事情請國會如果水利市送到邊緣地區無自來水的地區現在應該要提成本單路要提到八十萬到九十萬就要那日何比了我們有需要這個"},{"start":8160.303,"end":8188.528,"text":"結果我們普及率特別低害我們每次選舉都被修理黃仁你是苗栗人我跟你講你讓我選舉很痛苦啊有啦委員的建議我們這一次在報五期計畫的時候就針對比較特殊尤其像苗栗這個比較偏遠地區而且水庫比較多的在周邊的區域的部分我們這個經費都有提高那目前正在做計畫的呈報正在討論單戶成本你們有沒有那個地區不要60萬啊"},{"start":8189.608,"end":8213.771,"text":"有,有比較提高了。對,已經提高了。提高如果到八十萬就給他們扣一百萬給他們賺。那我為什麼會再問這個問題?因為自來水公司每次要提的自來水、無自來水地區的那個經費的時候要送到你們國外會。國外會好像不怎麼同意捏。你們這裡有多少人都不知道我們整個人留著好山好水。"},{"start":8214.924,"end":8231.738,"text":"案件的供給都是在邊緣地區,你們沒有特別照顧,只照顧都市人,這樣如果有合幣如果丟,那就改為一百萬,平比一百萬,你就把它送進去裡面,剩下沒有多少了,課金其功,大膽的將會補助下來。"},{"start":8234.3,"end":8242.087,"text":"國外會不要再擋了!黃副市長,還有地方創生很重要,有自來水表示有進步的地方,沒有自來水就沒有進步的地方,幫我加油!我會好好盯著,謝謝!接下來我們請領導府委員請做詢談"},{"start":8265.542,"end":8265.562,"text":"案。"},{"start":8280.283,"end":8281.946,"text":"案、陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、陳玉珍"},{"start":8295.365,"end":8318.103,"text":"案。」告主委我請教因為金馬盆離島居民後代移居至臺灣本島的人口出估差不多180萬人左右那本席選區雖然是在永和綜合但其實很多人是從金門、馬祖、澎湖移居過來本席關心整個離島建設的一個發展"},{"start":8321.822,"end":8333.252,"text":"財政為數證之母,一百一十二年度離島基金建設條例的基金只剩三點八九億元。一百一十三年度國庫雖然撥補了九億,但是離島鄉親擔心基金用完後後續無以為繼。"},{"start":8341.46,"end":8355.539,"text":"對此國安會跟財政部未來是我會有新的財源來注入來改善整個離島這個建設基金的體質讓基金能夠永續的這些運作。高組委你有什麼看法?"},{"start":8356.22,"end":8356.32,"text":"彭麗玲議員"},{"start":8382.352,"end":8395.842,"text":"報告委員,因為撥補這個部分,基本上當然我們如果說是政府的財政非常充裕的話,那在主席總署那邊一定會配合國防會這邊來做相關的處理啊。這樣齁,我希望不要斷吹啦。"},{"start":8398.365,"end":8416.425,"text":"案 。 因為馬祖金門有攔眼淚,通常在每年四月至六月之間是最佳觀賞期,因為許多民眾前往觀光,每年三至五月是金門、馬祖又剛好遇到霧季。"},{"start":8417.907,"end":8418.448,"text":"案 、本院委員"},{"start":8434.011,"end":8438.032,"text":"案 ﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案 ﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案 ﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":8454.649,"end":8472.631,"text":"報告委員,那其實我們對於馬祖第七有特別的關注。那最近也承蒙這個院裡面的這個核定,我們相關的這個計畫,整個機場的一個改善計畫也在進行中。那只有馬祖,那金門勒?金門也是一樣。我是希望在最短時間裡面解決這個問題啦,可行嗎?"},{"start":8476.075,"end":8503.973,"text":"我們會來處理。」行管的問題啦因為你每年喔誤記的時候其實那裡剛好就是有藍眼淚嘛對不對那既然是這樣要發展觀光就是一定要做好不好那你請回來那個日前喔行政院金馬聯合服務中心與金馬盆聯盟啊舉辦離島建設條例研討會希望爭取制定金馬盆的基本法並修訂離島建設條例"},{"start":8505.774,"end":8533.585,"text":"篇列預算來益助離島建設基金協助金馬盆的建設發展。在中央成立金馬盆委員會專責金馬盆發展的事務來扶持金馬盆在地的產業保存、在地的文化、輔導青年創業與促進觀光發展等。對於金門、馬祖、澎湖、離島的鄉親們上述的主張,國會裡面有沒有什麼看法?"},{"start":8535.831,"end":8535.951,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":8553.483,"end":8573.548,"text":"還有綠島藍玉等等的小琉球所以其實就離島來說其實已經有院層級的執照委員會現在已經是院長來擔任召集人了我是希望多關注多關心啦要支持啦好不好最後一個議題中國大陸宣布要推動福建民眾組團戶馬祖來旅遊"},{"start":8575.469,"end":8596.029,"text":"案 本級是認為說這是一個好的開始兩岸多互動交流總是能帶來一些轉機本級是希望政府各機關要好好的把握促成大陸全面恢復團客觀光這些旅遊以下建議也希望國外會把帶回去給"},{"start":8597.21,"end":8615.04,"text":"案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":8626.987,"end":8629.058,"text":"那個副主委你什麼看法?"},{"start":8631.689,"end":8656.128,"text":"對這個是我這個成績沒有辦法製作的部分那你可不可以建議嘛反映啊所以立法院有這樣的一個聲音我想會把委員的意見我想會帶去給我們新竹委講實在話兩岸本來就應該要交流但是從蔡政府開始就斷掉而且越來越糟糕越來越僵因為我在立法院算是自身委員我們希望我跟你講最後一段有一天那個對岸"},{"start":8657.799,"end":8686.185,"text":"就是社科院的院長他叫做于克里來這裡我面對面我跟他怎麼談我說齁兩岸是兄弟啦你們是大哥我們是你的弟弟啦我們在這裡生活久了希望維持現在這種生活的狀況希望維持這種制度我們只要不講台獨不搞台獨兩岸應該要和平共處相互尊重他馬上跟我說其實這樣就夠了因為大陸有疆獨有藏獨"},{"start":8687.125,"end":8708.988,"text":"我們是希望說兩岸要和平老百姓要的是什麼安居樂業不是要你每天都聽美國搞到最後兵兇戰危老百姓要的是這樣子嗎但是現在的蔡英文政府就是全部都聽美國的搞到你看美國叫你東你不敢西叫你西你不敢北不敢南這很糟糕"},{"start":8709.989,"end":8710.949,"text":"案﹚事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":8731.974,"end":8731.994,"text":"案。」"},{"start":8755.022,"end":8755.422,"text":"現在請楊誠勳委員質詢"},{"start":8778.503,"end":8778.723,"text":"主席"},{"start":8792.403,"end":8813.077,"text":"我們來討論這個排碳量的問題我們從今年開始排碳量如果超過2.5萬公噸的四葉體都會被納為第一批的納管徵收碳費的對象是不是是的好那2024年的這個排放量為依據是不是"},{"start":8814.252,"end":8815.013,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":8839.375,"end":8867.707,"text":"案,所以我們要去理清楚,目前我們也知道碳費率一直延遲,所以讓我們所有的企業界一直到最基層的民眾,一般的民眾都很緊張,不只是有心要減碳的企業無所適從,而且會衝擊到我們的民生經濟,會加速的來通膨。那我們也了解到,也就是目前你碳定價相關的三個執法,"},{"start":8868.888,"end":8883.506,"text":"包括了碳費收費辦法、自主減量計劃管理辦法以及碳費收費對象溫室氣體減量指定的目標這些的法律程序都要完成那目前正在準備要預告"},{"start":8884.767,"end":8907.734,"text":"但是我們看到預告後就會召開第三次的審查會但實際上討論到碳費的部分可能要到第四次的這個會議所以本期要請教副主委碳費徵收攸關了我們的產業跟民生那到目前為止我們的碳費率還沒有辦法定出來是什麼原因那今年年底是不是可以定出來請做說明好"},{"start":8909.635,"end":8910.135,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":8925.3,"end":8951.12,"text":"那其實那會不會?今年年底會不會?按照時程的話應該要定出來,那至於會不會我還是尊重因為因為碳費差小林委員會的好,您請站點發言來主席因為我們的公主也到了我要請公主也來回答那我也好"},{"start":8953.908,"end":8981.968,"text":"公主委,我們約定今天11點你會到,你慢了7秒鐘。所以呢我就直接請你上台,非常感謝。那剛才講到了碳費率的問題,我們預計會在第四次會議,產業界很緊張,一般民眾就緊張,因為2.5萬公噸的試月體那就要排入到第一。那目前為止是不是我們維持原來的2025年要繳交第一筆的碳費?"},{"start":8983.562,"end":8998.93,"text":"法委員我們的態度還是希望就是說還是維持到2025年就是說這個環境部還是要跟企業界有比較好的你的預計是2025年是不是還是會2025年因為有人說要延後一年會不會"},{"start":9000.506,"end":9025.302,"text":"當然我們是希望就是說今年齁,今年可以大家有個共識談妥。所以你們的預計方向還是今年度,今年年底要訂出碳費率,是不是?對,談妥以後至於就是說從今年開始起算還是明年開始起算,那又可能是另外一個討論啦。你先跟我討論目前的問題。就是今年年底會將碳費率訂出來?"},{"start":9026.322,"end":9026.603,"text":"對,這個是原來的規劃。"},{"start":9045.547,"end":9071.084,"text":"對,我們期待說是今年可以談妥這樣的事情。好,所以本期之所以為什麼會提出這樣子的議題,也產業界蠻緊張的。我們希望讓產業界能夠安心,好嗎?好好去談判,好嗎?來接下來本期要請教您,也就是打詐國家隊,越打越詐,越打讓民眾越傷腦筋。在這樣的一個情況之下,台灣是"},{"start":9072.825,"end":9096.141,"text":"詐騙天堂,這樣子的污名本席不願意聽到。」所以在5月9號的時候你們公佈了打詐新釋法要將避傷納入管制而且要提供虛擬資產第三方支付服務的事業會人員必須完成洗錢防治、服務能量登記或者是登錄違規者要處兩年以下的有期徒刑並可罰金500萬以上"},{"start":9102.065,"end":9121.957,"text":"那在國外的幣商也要在國內落地的時候呢那也要在國內落地這是我們在5月9號的一個公佈那當然會這樣子公佈也就是看到社會面向詐騙事件頻繁人民很恐慌不知所措而且詐騙的案件越來越多對不對?詐騙的金額損失的也越來越多是不是?那事該怎麼辦?"},{"start":9128.261,"end":9155.375,"text":"所以為什麼您剛才提到為什麼這個5月9號我們在行政院通過了這個黨詐釋法那也盡快的送到大院來那如果大院可以比較快的審核我們就可以依照新的法律因為新的法律有新的授權我們比較好的手段是換句話說目前我們看到這個問題的嚴重性那同時我們也積極希望有所改變制度跟方法對不對"},{"start":9156.235,"end":9181.132,"text":"在這樣的情況之下本協也勉勵因為你打壓國家隊你包含了內政部、法務部、金管會、NCC、國發會你們是區中聯合最主要的角色但是我願意說在幾天之後你是秘書長在這個橫向的組織你更有能力所以一定要加強好不好一定要加強保障人民的安全接下來本協要請問電的問題"},{"start":9183.513,"end":9206.824,"text":"我們的這個能源政策新的準這個經濟部長郭部長他說他上任之後會將電台灣的需求量會做一個整體性的一個檢討呈現給國人這是第一項第二個本期再請問非核家園的政策會不會改變"},{"start":9208.208,"end":9227.021,"text":"他告訴我們說因為核電的問題是需要多數人民的同意而執行之本下請教主委郭准部長所說的這一句話是不是我們的非核家園會有所轉彎請教"},{"start":9229.617,"end":9249.288,"text":"法務委員,就是說從行政部門的角度來講,我們是依法行政。所以說,因為現在假如法律通通沒有改的情況之下,我們只能按照...假如人民需由,你們行政部門我們也可以改法律啊!如果法律改的話,我們當然是...你認不認同《環境基準法》的第23條針對核的部分必須要做檢討?"},{"start":9250.942,"end":9258.989,"text":"按照目前台灣所需要的電量。需不需要?所以你也是朝這個方向嗎?所以整個能源政策都是必須是要討論的,是嗎?當然可以討論,因為到目前為止你們所說的綠能到目前為止是沒有辦法達成的。"},{"start":9276.704,"end":9277.504,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":9300.629,"end":9319.51,"text":"而且他們的速度加大他們的速度加快又加大用電比率也會超前也會更多在這樣的一個情況之下我仍舊要請教未來的秘書長現任的國發會主委全球對核能發電的觀點都有在改變對不對"},{"start":9321.738,"end":9348.439,"text":"目前為止都有在調整。」一直在討論。一直在討論。所以我們是不是積極要檢視非核家園的政策?對,巴爾委員就是說討論都OK啦,但是行政部門還是依法行政。您剛才有講到一點,也就是說如果全國的人民多數同意,那是不是非核家園的政策會去做調整?"},{"start":9348.999,"end":9349.019,"text":"案﹚"},{"start":9367.256,"end":9370.459,"text":"好謝謝陳仲偉委員來接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢談"},{"start":9395.035,"end":9404.542,"text":"主席、在黨的委員先進、列席的政府經過所長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請拱主委。我們請拱主委。周委好。主委好。今天行政院總辭,但是您已經將內定接行政院秘書長。"},{"start":9418.446,"end":9443.468,"text":"這樣我這樣審視就交通部經濟部財政部就不用請了就直接您一併回答好來我們來看一下花東山法乾坑法案那我們看到對於環島高速鐵路特別建設的特別條例國發會說這個與我們的鐵路法財政紀律法國發會主席有所漢格那另外在花東快速公路的建設特別條例當中也認為"},{"start":9444.366,"end":9470.299,"text":"一、基於憲政分際,那不亦有監家預算支出,有自愛難言之無法推動。」您可以說明一下這個三法?報告委員就是說國家的建設尤其是公共建設基本上如果有那樣需要我們都會來支持那現在也有既有的機制在進行從可行性分析到綜合規劃然後如果通過的話這當然還包括了環評用地取得那到西部"},{"start":9471.019,"end":9488.128,"text":"所以你有偷看我的簡報囉我就在說你們國發會就是有一個中長程個案計畫的編審要點是不是?是是是所以應該要有這個程序嘛按照計畫需求可行性協調還有看效果這效果當中除了注意社會效果經濟效果還有財政效益跟成本效益比對不對?"},{"start":9489.048,"end":9507.76,"text":"還有兼顧到國家安全、社會經濟跟自然環境性別等。」是不是這樣的意思?那請問您認為目前我們看到中長城計畫的審議要素,這些要素當中,剛所羅列的要素當中,目前我們的離島建設基金各項補助計畫有沒有擬具完整的需求性評估還有可行性研究及綜合規劃報告?"},{"start":9509.131,"end":9526.53,"text":"報告委員因為離島基金的部分我們都有一個中長期四年期間的一個綜合方案那這個綜合方案我們擬定了方向然後會跟地方政府共同討論那地方政府會依據這個方向擬出他們的優先順序出來然後我們經過審議以後然後來執行"},{"start":9529.133,"end":9556.901,"text":"所以目前有按照您所說的方式在離島建設基金的各樣補充有這樣去做那未來不管是不是離島建設基金還是其他類似的像花中建設也應該準用這個方法來執行是是是本來就有一套的這個程序在進行那我們來看一下那麼目前離島重大建設投資計畫的核定標準這第五條他說這些東西都要有行政院核定那目前是否目前在執行當中都是要由行政院來核定"},{"start":9557.785,"end":9572.422,"text":"目前的計畫是在行政院合訂的。好,那我們來看一下,那你們合訂的這個金額要如何審議,是考量到它的人口數還是地域面積還是財政狀況,包括以離島、以花東或其他的為例,你們怎麼來衡量?"},{"start":9572.858,"end":9573.238,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":9593.956,"end":9593.976,"text":"案。"},{"start":9613.775,"end":9641.923,"text":"但是現在比照這個華東建設特別條例有藍委要提出一個離島建設條例的修正草案原來是要經中央主管機關合訂為重大投資計畫者他現在多加了一個縣市主管機關那這些重大的建設投資計畫它的合訂標準本來是要由離島建設指導委員會來擬訂還要由行政院來合訂現在可以由縣市政府另訂之你覺得這樣的一個修正之後如果這個法案如果通過會產生怎麼樣的影響"},{"start":9642.83,"end":9643.05,"text":"案 ﹚審查﹚"},{"start":9665.934,"end":9668.577,"text":"那這樣的話如何去處理就會產生一些困擾。"},{"start":9681.587,"end":9689.675,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案件第十三條條文修正草案 案件第十三條條文修正草案 案件第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":9702.228,"end":9703.589,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":9731.348,"end":9755.773,"text":"及居民的權益,運用離島建設基金來推動相關的離島建設開發,事情要擬具完成的需求性評估、可行應研究,按照規劃報告,結案前應妥慎驗收。」所以請盤點,要求現執行中離島建設基金各項補助計畫是否擬具完成的需求性評估、可行應研究及綜合規劃報告。請你盤點,一個月內提出書面報告給本席,可以嗎?可以。好,謝謝。"},{"start":9760.319,"end":9760.339,"text":"案。"},{"start":9772.408,"end":9800.43,"text":"下一位請嚴寬恒委員嚴寬恒委員嚴寬恒委員不在請游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在請蔓玉珍委員蔓玉珍委員蔓玉珍委員不在請賴世寶委員賴世寶委員賴世寶委員不在請洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員不在請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在好,這樣"},{"start":9802.113,"end":9804.538,"text":"我們等趙偉回來,我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":9809.574,"end":9809.914,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":9844.648,"end":9844.668,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9855.785,"end":9856.145,"text":"案。」告知委員會長"},{"start":9885.61,"end":9889.934,"text":"案：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第13條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9901.229,"end":9911.391,"text":"案。」則三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案。」則三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案。」"},{"start":9932.022,"end":9945.804,"text":"案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案"},{"start":9946.648,"end":9946.808,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":9972.678,"end":9972.899,"text":"案件結論"},{"start":9989.721,"end":10008.249,"text":"案：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員"},{"start":10010.367,"end":10012.35,"text":"案件事後納稅符號提示要頒發於議會。"},{"start":10029.042,"end":10056.53,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":10064.128,"end":10078.728,"text":"案 二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案 案 二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":10078.988,"end":10083.052,"text":"案：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":10095.043,"end":10115.549,"text":"案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案"},{"start":10116.089,"end":10137.763,"text":"案：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體"},{"start":10139.744,"end":10139.764,"text":"案。"},{"start":10167.037,"end":10167.057,"text":"案。"},{"start":10193.93,"end":10197.955,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":10208.567,"end":10230.841,"text":"案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案"},{"start":10232.902,"end":10232.922,"text":"案。"},{"start":10252.044,"end":10258.549,"text":"主委,恭喜恭喜恭喜!有勞,你要去哪裡?你人生,你人生就要問你,你經常要問人家。經常練習,我有練習,有觀察,都有。"},{"start":10272.779,"end":10272.799,"text":"案。」"},{"start":10296.191,"end":10315.158,"text":"案件,一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案件,一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案件,一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案件,一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 案件,一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":10323.321,"end":10330.347,"text":"好,非常感謝,我們繼續開會,請回座,請肅靜,謝謝接下來我們謝謝參議員委員,我們請參議員委員請做詢答好,謝謝主席,我們是不是有請我們主委,公主委,未來的秘書長我們請公主委"},{"start":10354.586,"end":10354.766,"text":"蔡偉豪"},{"start":10378.354,"end":10396.566,"text":"我還是想在這個機會再跟主委再聊一下台灣的海洋政策基本上台灣四面環海我們的領海的面積是我們的國土面積的4.7倍那全球有12大的航商就有三個在台灣"},{"start":10400.768,"end":10415.514,"text":"那目前我們知道說台灣基本上也是大家說遊艇王國我們台灣打造遊艇的能量是最強的但是我們有這麼強的打造遊艇的能量我想跟主委"},{"start":10416.734,"end":10430.047,"text":"報告一下說我們自己國內在使用遊艇也就是我們在使用我們領海我們在使用我們所謂藍色公路內是這種還沒有那麼的蓬勃發展所以我這樣講你認同嗎?"},{"start":10432.944,"end":10432.964,"text":"案 。"},{"start":10451.869,"end":10478.825,"text":"我們如果要去免稅商品,他們現在依依據離島免稅商品的設置管理辦法第五條。大家看,我們如果要去免稅商品,我們要有幾項必要的證件。第一是護照。第二是外橋,它要有居留證。第三要有旅行證件或身份證明文件。這個旅行證件是什麼?旅行證件是什麼?注意,這是旅行證件。"},{"start":10480.543,"end":10496.693,"text":"就你知道你這個旅行證件是什麼嗎我跟你說就是我們搭交通船從台灣到離島搭交通船不管是所謂藍雀雲豹號啦搭交通船的這個船票或者是飛機票"},{"start":10499.375,"end":10518.28,"text":"案,所以你要有這個旅行證件,他才能夠去購買離島的免稅商品,我現在問題來了,現在問題就造出來就是說,那如果我搭遊艇,我走藍色公路,我坐這個私人的遊艇到離島去,我沒有旅行證件啊,"},{"start":10519.5,"end":10520.68,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":10539.244,"end":10551.208,"text":"法院委員我想這件事情我們有靠譜有協商過技術性的問題我們大概已經可以解決了就是說因為他出海都要填這個跟填這個出海報報備表"},{"start":10553.467,"end":10558.57,"text":"案 、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":10577.923,"end":10599.9,"text":"當時我們沒有再往下去思考,那我買了免稅商品後,我要去哪裡?現在離島去買免稅商品,他就是在我要去離開離島,就是我要去坐交通船,或者是我去機場,我要坐飛機前,那一段管制區,我才能去拿我的免稅品。"},{"start":10601.431,"end":10601.451,"text":"案。"},{"start":10621.817,"end":10625.278,"text":"案,所以我很多人都說,哇,你們推動了這個政策,結果沒有辦法被實踐,因為我不知道要去哪裡。那些免稅品也沒辦法給你稅高,那些都是給你買的,你去管制區,他把你叫回去,把你叫到那裡,你給他一隻高照。"},{"start":10641.603,"end":10670.12,"text":"這個我知道他們的用意是什麼當時這樣設計是擔心這一些免稅品如果他們沒有在管制區交貨的話他可能會流入離島然後會影響在地的商家是不是?他們有這樣的一個考慮所以他們用管制區但是勒但是勒對我們剛剛講的遊艇的他就沒辦法解決了是不是?主委是不是這兩件事情無解無解嘛齁"},{"start":10672.325,"end":10692.774,"text":"有辦法嗎?黨家討價有辦法嗎?所以委員的建議我知道,就是說他不要在那個離島裡面來提貨,就不會留在這個離島裡面交易。對啦,就是這樣啦。所以我的意思就是這樣啦。所以我們只要本島有設置一個提貨處,是不是這些遊艇的人、去旅遊的人,他的問題就解決啦。"},{"start":10695.39,"end":10716.971,"text":"案,他搭遊艇去,他一樣去買免稅品,那他在本島,本島的提貨處去提貨,消費一樣在離島,消費沒有在本島,本島只是提貨。所以他同時間就帶有兩個好處,第一就是如果我是搭交通船的,我搭飛機的,我要處理,我一樣去管制區去拿這個免稅品。"},{"start":10718.332,"end":10721.974,"text":"案,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":10752.375,"end":10765.132,"text":"所以我今天我特別再提出了這個離島建設條例第十條之一那我希望可以再跟離島對接的台灣的這一些三港"},{"start":10766.574,"end":10788.23,"text":"案,可設提貨區,事實上空港沒有問題了,廢機的部分因為他們都有提貨,他們那些都白白管制區對管制區的沒問題,現在是香港的部分在台灣的部分有沒有辦法增設提貨區,這個增設提貨區就是像我剛剛講的,他可以解決現階段我們離島他在做免稅品的管制的"},{"start":10789.011,"end":10790.471,"text":"案：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":10813.859,"end":10838.336,"text":"我把雜貨公司讓主委你一直很支持我這一條提案那我也希望說可以在這個會期然後把順利把這個第十條之一把它推動過然後離島可以更多更多人去離島遊玩那我們本島這邊那也可以因為提貨的一個一個提貨區的一個設置然後大家未來的旅遊會更加的方便這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝主委好謝謝"},{"start":10848.086,"end":10854.409,"text":"接下來我們請邱毅榮委員、邱毅榮委員、邱毅榮委員不在現場。我們最後請黃仁委員請做詢答。謝謝主席。第二次補充的一個說明。有關於離島條例第十三條的補充說明。第一,"},{"start":10877.726,"end":10896.402,"text":"應該增加花東及原住民地區及洗腎中心光是台東地區就有750位洗腎患者目前全台洗腎人口更直逼到將近9萬人若病患因有肺積水的狀況"},{"start":10897.603,"end":10915.919,"text":"案,就是幸運遇到合適的這個腎臟也無法換腎。請問臺東有多少洗腎中心是否能滿足臺東的洗腎的需求?那第二個為偏鄉的血液透析婦理人員的難尋找15張床為"},{"start":10919.602,"end":10941.315,"text":"只能提供八張床位的服務,即盼婦理人員加入,請問目前臺東醫療院所的醫護比是多少?第三、語言溝通不良的原因就是延誤了病情的醫療,部落長輩反映因為"},{"start":10942.456,"end":10956.12,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":10970.323,"end":10998.093,"text":"正確的診斷他的病情造成了許多老人家的或長輩病情治療的延誤。第四、針對花東第七高齡醫療照顧及可行性的研究。台東縣中高齡民眾醫療可行性醫療品質與服務醫療滿意度及醫療忠誠度之研究提及因為地理環境的限制"},{"start":10998.353,"end":11018.27,"text":"案,使交通和醫療的資源分配不均。台灣受限於地理環境及交通,造成了醫療資源分配不均,即使偏鄉有保險也無醫療的保障,尤其是慢性病和癌症的治療需求。"},{"start":11020.578,"end":11037.025,"text":"所以這個部分醫療部署的話請問要如何處理?第五華東地區的長照資源與基層的醫療資源與都會區的供需的平衡但偏鄉地區的資源可接近性的較低"},{"start":11037.905,"end":11063.226,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":11065.959,"end":11087.065,"text":"我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束。委員有邱應委員以及林黛樺委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢以及未答覆的部分請相關單位於一週以內書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":11089.326,"end":11103.243,"text":"那主席來宣告討論事項所列的議案離島建設條例部分條文修正草案我們詢答結束那我要特別請因為今天充分的溝通了詢答"},{"start":11104.364,"end":11104.524,"text":"案：審查：事由：審查"},{"start":11134.304,"end":11134.324,"text":"上會。謝謝。"},{"start":11159.577,"end":11175.053,"text":"案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、"},{"start":11180.374,"end":11195.22,"text":"案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案"},{"start":11207.869,"end":11225.885,"text":"案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十七條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、"},{"start":11244.661,"end":11244.702,"text":"案。」案。"}]}},{"id":"15919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15919","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d30a6515091f25b865e5a7d9476abbdb33be8d109af184be473225955caf0ae235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「學校午餐法制化」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-05-16T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-16T12:13:00+08:00","duration":13335,"影片長度":"03:42:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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TORONTO"},{"start":1739.737,"end":1747.19,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1827.312,"end":1846.725,"text":"好,鑑於我們校園安全跟學生飲食營養議題長久以來我們是受到很多的家長還有各界的高度的關注然後近年來呢也興起了外送平台業者的這個蓬勃的發展所以呢學生的身心跟飲食的健康都是家長們非常關心的一個重點所以我們查鄰近日本跟韓國分別在1954還有在1981年的時候呢制定學校級時法"},{"start":1853.55,"end":1855.771,"text":"建立完整的學校公餐制度,因為針對營養午餐的相關事項,尚未立定專法,為了促進學生健康,完備學校午餐制度和推動飲食教育,實在是有制定一部午餐專法的必要。"},{"start":1872.401,"end":1877.702,"text":"各界意見而論：學校午餐人力：食材供應設備：收費：飲食教育相關議題：各方意見提出交流：為了廣泛傾聽各界意見：相互討論：特別召開這次公聽會：來具蒐集中整及歸納各界寶貴的意見"},{"start":1894.286,"end":1907.393,"text":"那我們這次所設定的五個討論的提綱是我國歷經多次重大的食品安全事件午餐專法是否定義相關的機制來強化學校午餐衛生安全還有品質還有讓學生能夠吃的營養健康且安心那第二個是學校午餐是影響到學生健康成長的關鍵因素是否透過午餐專法我們可以來加強推動飲食的教育達成正確飲食的習慣"},{"start":1923.922,"end":1928.766,"text":"中央及地方政府針對學校午餐．如何透過資源投入．人力協治．法規制定．使校園公餐日趨完善偏遠或偏鄉地區的學校．有人力與資源不足的長期結構困境．是否可在午餐專法有所因應．做一個有效的改善"},{"start":1950.703,"end":1951.644,"text":"陳佩玉、郭育琴、林倩琪、葉元芝委員"},{"start":1974.504,"end":1975.685,"text":"中華民國營養師公會全國聯合會陳佩蓉副理事長全國教育產業公會林碩傑理事長"},{"start":1998.308,"end":2023.577,"text":"第三位是社團法人臺灣食品技師協會的曾怡勇理事長第四位是宜蘭縣同樂國民小學的葉明正總務主任第五位是全國高級中學家長大聯盟教育政策研究中心的鍾坤志主任第六位是中華民國餐盒食品商業同業工會全國聯合會的陳明信會長"},{"start":2026.369,"end":2041.832,"text":"學校午餐團善周維銘主廚國立成功大學人文社會科學中心宋立文副教授全國教師工會總聯合會侯俊良理事長"},{"start":2044.037,"end":2071.43,"text":"謝謝,還有其他的幾位我們所邀請的學者專家都會陸續在路上當中我們稍後再來做介紹那這一次呢我們的教育部我也請給各位所有的學者專家跟這次有關的我們先介紹一下沒有全部介紹我們介紹非常謝謝教育部的同仁教育部的政務次長李敏玉林次長還有我們彭副原彭署長謝謝,其他的同仁也一併的感謝然後接下來就是法務部的江南君參事"},{"start":2073.53,"end":2098.692,"text":"還有我們勞動部職業安全衛生署的副組長彭鳳美還有農業部農糧署的檢任技師傅立中還有衛生福利部的國民健康署的研究員陳立娟我們的各部會還增多環境部環境保護司的檢任視察吳靈竹謝謝還有行政院公共工程委員會的企劃組的專門委員徐偉俊"},{"start":2101.806,"end":2128.243,"text":"行政院主席總處的公務預算處的專門委員黃子涵還有行政院人事行政總處編組編人力處的專門委員谷元林謝謝各位謝謝我們各位中央所以說這次給我們所有的在場的學者專家特別認識一下當然你們所有的問題可以透過我們的中央部會裡面來幫大家一一聆聽完之後一一來做一個解決那接下來"},{"start":2133.086,"end":2133.426,"text":"6分鐘結束零"},{"start":2151.989,"end":2158.29,"text":"：專家學者發言以簽名先後順序為主：現場發言和書面資料：立法院會做成記錄：來刊登我們的公報：在場立法委員：如果有意見發表：我們也會在會議當中進行穿插：以在場委員登記的發言順序為主：如果委員要發言的話：請到我們的主席來登記：我們現在請教育部的林正次：來進行法規執行的狀況：還有相關的物體提出說明：說明的時間是8分鐘"},{"start":2184.663,"end":2214.109,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好感謝各界對於學校公益學生善始之關心今天大院教文會召開學校午餐法制化公聽會本部應邀列席並聆聽各位委員各界先進專家學者著見自感榮幸本部依序就學校午餐法制化辦理情形及本次公聽會提綱進行檢要報告進行各界先進予以指證跟支持一"},{"start":2214.769,"end":2240.774,"text":"1.學校午餐法制化辦理的情形教育部已簽與凝聚學校午餐條例草案並於108年4月3號公告同年8月30號將簽開草案函送行政院條修名稱為學校午餐及飲食教育條例2.為使學校午餐專法立法後能夠順利的落實至於109年至111年透過"},{"start":2243.345,"end":2256.833,"text":"主向專案計畫提高學校自設廚房供應午餐之比率﹐增加營養師及廚工的薪資﹐每年補助中央廚房及聯合採購群長學校約273位營養師﹐1000餘名廚工﹐225條生熟食運輸路線﹐提高偏鄉午餐費達62元﹐"},{"start":2269.761,"end":2280.409,"text":"各項強化措施必使後續推動之專法﹐符合實際需求﹐達到提升午餐品質之效益本部國教署根據於112年至113年間﹐召開多場次的諮詢會議"},{"start":2285.592,"end":2299.485,"text":"研修草案內容目前法案名稱條修為高級重點學校以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例條件重點包含共餐方式收費以及食材供應諮詢會輔導會及供應會之設置還有營養制的設置職責"},{"start":2305.458,"end":2320.466,"text":"午餐的專責單位及人力聘用﹐食物的內容及菜單設計﹐營養基準﹐採購規範﹐業務單位及人力﹐衛生管理及資訊登載﹐財務收支帳務處理及透明化﹐飲食教育內容及推動等事情﹐並於今年3月11日報請行政院審議"},{"start":2330.591,"end":2339.439,"text":"2.本次公聽會提綱回應之說明1.藉由《午餐專法》訂定相關機制強化學校午餐安全及品質"},{"start":2343.565,"end":2360.057,"text":"現行學校衛生法已經明定學校供應膳食之食材應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證之在地優良農業產品本部定有學校外定餐盒採購契約範本與學校與供應業者"},{"start":2364.699,"end":2391.716,"text":"簽訂書面契約：該契約應登載詳實共參資訊及違約法則關乎三 學校午餐每日經由專人執行食材驗收作業並上傳至登錄平台 廠商應保證和與食品衛生及農業管理相關規定各項食材經應訂定品質規格驗收標準及提出來源證明"},{"start":2393.578,"end":2418.421,"text":"瓜福市 教育部定期會同衛生福利部 農業部 地方政府及營養師實地查核學校午餐辦理情形發現有衛生不良情形者則立即通知當地衛生組織機關一 食安法及裁法標準及相關規定處理二 透過午餐專法加強推動飲食教育 強化學生正確飲食習慣"},{"start":2421.21,"end":2448.428,"text":"關於現行學校衛生法明定：健康飲食教育目的：包含建立正確的飲食習慣：養成對生命及自然之尊重：增進環境保護意識：加深對食材來源之瞭解：理解國家及地區飲食文化十二年國教課綱裏面有提之健康體育學習領域：已將人物食物健康消費納入學習重點"},{"start":2450.569,"end":2451.69,"text":"3.透過支援投入人力"},{"start":2476.361,"end":2487.894,"text":"協助及法規制定使我國校園共餐日趨完善教育部於106年至107年辦理學校午餐廚房整建新設總共輔助540校經費達3億餘顏109年藉由"},{"start":2493.18,"end":2518.755,"text":"公立國民中小學學生學校午餐廚房經濟方案補助全國1944間公立國中小午餐廚房設備共12億餘元為讓偏鄉學童享有與都會區學童同等的飲食照顧110年至111年本部辦理偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫新建中央廚房及相關配套措施經費高達63億元"},{"start":2521.477,"end":2544.097,"text":"因應學校食品衛生安全工作為本部重點工作依據學校衛生法第23條之一規定每年補助學校營養師經費有3億9千萬元令補助學生70人以下偏鄉學校儲供薪資充實學校午餐人力"},{"start":2546.549,"end":2555.761,"text":"對於經濟弱勢學生每年編列21億元補助低收入戶、中低收入戶、家庭突發因素及經營導師、家庭訪視認定等4類經濟弱勢學生每年約有37萬學生受惠"},{"start":2565.172,"end":2579.688,"text":"關乎是將上開專案計畫經驗﹐如食材聯合採購運輸﹐小校和平養殖﹐偏遠地區學校照顧﹐等機制一併納入專法草案﹐予以法制化﹐充實學校午餐人力跟資源﹐"},{"start":2580.569,"end":2608.766,"text":"結語 學生健康食慾力是國家未來競爭力的重要基石本部致力於培養學生正確的飲食觀念及感恩惜福之生活教育目標以照顧學生健康成長 其能透過合理的規劃充分發揮人力物力財力等資源及效率持續提升學校午餐品質紮根健康飲食教育建置完善整體的學校午餐制度"},{"start":2609.96,"end":2611.601,"text":"以上報告 敬請各界會議指導謝謝各位"},{"start":2639.053,"end":2643,"text":"還有我們中華民國中小學校長協會的張信物理事長"},{"start":2644.465,"end":2645.946,"text":"新北市三峽叉角國小旅美方營養師"},{"start":2674.445,"end":2674.807,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":2684.774,"end":2706.953,"text":"主席 科委員 非常感謝還有今天的所有專家還有關心午餐專法的各界人士大家早安我想吃是很重要其實每天有一兩百萬的學童在吃飯我覺得這是吃飯紅帶大所以我覺得在重要性來講這個專法是相當重要的"},{"start":2710.995,"end":2716.097,"text":"目前據我們所知,立法院已有12個提案,涵蓋了113位立委,事實上有90%以上委員都做了提案人或連署人,所以我想這個法案的重要性是無庸置疑的,這是第一點。"},{"start":2734.622,"end":2755.227,"text":"吃飯很重要 營養教育很重要所以又有這麼多的支持那事實上教育部對這個法案也非常關注我們工會也跟這個教育部有很多次的一個溝通那我想是重要性是沒有無庸置疑那接下來就是在有關這個今天講到這個法案裡面其實涉及到的是一個專業的能力"},{"start":2756.708,"end":2784.289,"text":"這專業人力包括營養師、廚師、還有武祕我覺得這個是相當重要的那這個在法條裡面都有很多的著墨那營養師的這個人力的配置一直以來是有一些爭議就是在我們過去可能營養師的人力不足所以說在設置上的標準是比較保守的可是現在營養師人力已經慢慢充足的而他是一個很重要的一個人力那"},{"start":2785.39,"end":2810.731,"text":"在這個大家都知道所謂的營養三法 營養三法包括了食農教育法還有營養及健康飲食促進法都已經陸續在2022年及2024年已經通過了那剩下的這個就是學校午餐的專法那這中間都有很多需要再補強的部分那過去以來通常營養師的設置是在於就是有公餐的這個學校有自立廚房的單位為主"},{"start":2811.872,"end":2833.071,"text":"實施頒一個營養師可是呢從食農教育法到營養及健康一直促進法到現在其實營養教育是一個非常重要的一個角色那剛才次長也有提到所以今天不是只有局限在說吃午餐這一餐其實大家都知道營養是一個健康的根本我們現在學童的健康狀況已經有一些問題"},{"start":2835.933,"end":2836.074,"text":"主席"},{"start":2856.408,"end":2876.323,"text":"廚師專業"},{"start":2877.199,"end":2903.017,"text":"做大人的菜是不是可以做小朋友的是不一定的午餐祕書的人一直不是很穩定這個我們都知道所以這也是營養師的痛苦也是伍祕的痛苦也是教長的痛苦他是一個專業他的人必須要很穩定必須要很穩定所以這三個非常很核心的這個專業我們需要予以尊重有專業才有創新有創新才有滿意度所以學童不滿意家長不滿意都是因為我們的專業不夠足夠的關係"},{"start":2905.899,"end":2910.845,"text":"編鄉要從都市找廚師到編鄉是不可行的所以我在跟倩琦委員溝通這件事情的時候因為倩琦她能夠了解到事實上山區原住民的編鄉地點我們廚師應該在地化"},{"start":2926.861,"end":2949.829,"text":"我非常感謝委員會支持我們的版本我們有一個比較創新的做法在過去版本我們一再修改之後我們有希望在這個法案裡面能夠設立一個校餐的研訓中心我們台灣有很好的公研院、中研院這麼多的研究所我難道不應該有一個國家級的研訓中心來研發我們的學童的菜單"},{"start":2954.211,"end":2973.972,"text":"訓練我們專業的學校營養師、學校廚師、學校伍祕暑假不是沒有事做,暑假我們可以來訓練我們家人力,然後在地化我們比較偏鄉的部分,我們訓練我們在地的人士因為偏鄉要坐車子沒有交通費,都找不到營養師找不到廚師"},{"start":2975.894,"end":2976.555,"text":"教育及文化委員會"},{"start":2989.198,"end":3016.192,"text":"那我希望在這個學校的營養師裡面我們給他一個定義他是一個廣益的社區營養師國建署已經在5、6年前已經開始在各個鄉鎮設立了社區營養師可是人力慢慢地增加應該到明年會增加到190位的這個目標6萬人有1人但是呢校園的營養師也是社區營養師的一環他可以從這個campus從校園裡面"},{"start":3017.293,"end":3018.214,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":3036.323,"end":3036.583,"text":"陳佩蓉副理事長"},{"start":3062.659,"end":3089.067,"text":"主席、委員、各位先進、各位長官大家好感謝主席今天召開有關學校午餐專法的公聽會讓我們全教廠做一些表達、一些意見那這些也是基層老師給我們一些重要的回饋當然剛才前面次長講到就是說學校午餐有針對人力資源的部分做一些努力"},{"start":3090.508,"end":3113.706,"text":"人力資源當然包括前面先進講到營養師那今天我們真的是午餐秘書的部分那在這幾年其實食安的問題一直出現的次數非常多包括一些什麼蘇丹紅色素什麼事件一大堆的包括前幾天還有這個學校午餐食物中毒的案件"},{"start":3115.564,"end":3138.651,"text":"社會各界都對這些學校午餐的案件非常注目、非常關心今天裁判院在108年在針對所謂的偏遠小校的國中小午餐做一些調查調查發現就是說包括學校在午餐的食材方面或者是說午餐的品質各方面都有一些問題"},{"start":3140.789,"end":3168.899,"text":"在一直催促之下,國教署也在立法院的調查報告出來之後也開始做了針對偏鄉小校實材的取得、採購平台還有儲供薪資各方面都有做一些有改變現狀的一些政策不過我們是發現這個部分目前我們發現可能在"},{"start":3170.011,"end":3170.251,"text":"主席"},{"start":3190.458,"end":3190.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3211.598,"end":3212.918,"text":"教育部在108-113年他們的所謂的學校午餐飲食教育條例裡面"},{"start":3233.783,"end":3247.715,"text":"裡面的條文我們覺得它蒙蔽了所有的立法委員以至於我們現在發現至少有7個委員的版本裡面有關午餐祕書仍是有老師兼任那我們懷疑這個午餐祕書還是要走舊路還是有老師兼任還是現在的狀況而不是專任"},{"start":3260.145,"end":3278.255,"text":"對於現在的情況,我們想做一些表達以教育部的學校午餐及飲食教育條例第12條講到學校應指定專責單位並指定人兼任學校午餐秘書並負責規劃、設計、推動學員午餐工作等等其實這樣的文字跟未來作文認為說跟過去並無惡意"},{"start":3289.963,"end":3294.006,"text":"新政府應該有新氣象,要有所改變,而不是讓學校老師繼續被迫被監認午餐必輸"},{"start":3305.894,"end":3329.103,"text":"繼續被迫做功德長期我們發現午餐秘書在學校的工作蠻多的我們在發言稿上面有附了我們就不帶贅述其實午餐秘書它包括寒暑假都要回學校處理公文包括剛剛很多部會都列席了其實這些部會他們的公文學校午餐秘書寒暑假他回去要處理公文可是他沒有特休他沒有職務加給"},{"start":3332.984,"end":3350.814,"text":"沒有國密旅遊卡 什麼都沒有也就是它根本不是新政令可是它被迫要回學校做這些工作只有教育部的午餐運行注意事項第10點就是說要減瘦部分的授課結束夠嗎 我們認為說大有問題而且各縣市減課的授課結束大不相同"},{"start":3351.514,"end":3375.562,"text":"甚至有某一個縣市公辦公營的廚房是比照主任在國中是比照主任檢課授課結束那在國小24班以下卻是比較這個組長的授課結束這個部分我們認為說非常的不公平尤其各縣市的處理模式也都大不相同產生了非常多奇怪的現象"},{"start":3376.721,"end":3376.901,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3400.185,"end":3423.739,"text":"王玉敏、黃孟楷、黃劍豪、廖偉翔、羅廷偉等委員所提出的學校公餐法草案第14條他們指出學校應設置專任公餐午餐秘書那我們期盼就是說如果說學校午餐秘書不能專任那期盼說有老師兼任的時候還是能夠設置所謂午餐主任或者是午餐組長以上謝謝"},{"start":3427.099,"end":3428.583,"text":"陳培芸立法委員"},{"start":3436.059,"end":3443.862,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我時間就開始了謝謝主席今天辦這場公聽會因為時間只有6分鐘我可能講話速度會變1.5倍因為從過去一整年地埔道立法院以來我花了非常非常非常多的時間跟非常多的團體還有專家學者還有營養師甚至食品技師還有第一線的老師還有民間倡議團體討論不下數百個小時的營養午餐"},{"start":3459.807,"end":3459.967,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3474.906,"end":3474.966,"text":"主席"},{"start":3499.525,"end":3515.97,"text":"聽到了可能教育部的版本只有放在國中還有國小那到底幼稚園的部分還有高中職的部分如同昭葦一剛開始就說了現在外送平台非常的專業高中生幾乎想吃什麼都可以訂得到什麼可是難道高中生的營養教育這一塊飲食教育這一塊我們就要放棄了嗎有沒有機會透過專法再規範高中職的部分這個部分我們的版本也會提出相關的建議再來"},{"start":3523.192,"end":3524.492,"text":"：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會．"},{"start":3539.957,"end":3558.217,"text":"規範規範"},{"start":3558.657,"end":3572.433,"text":"現行的狀態有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營還有他校公營甚至還有那個中央偏鄉的中央廚房公餐的模式那這麼多模式甚至我們聽過一個說法同一條南京東路或者是中校東路上"},{"start":3573.314,"end":3574.155,"text":"中央及地方及學校有沒有就營養午餐的"},{"start":3594.614,"end":3616.271,"text":"政策﹑運作方式﹑飲食教育﹑納入所謂的﹑或者是開辦所謂的相關委員會進行討論並且在這個委員會裡面納入多元的委員怎麼說我們在很多相關的個案也就是所謂大家常常會說的食安事件的個案當中發現其實很多事情是很欠缺溝通欠缺討論如果沒有一個平台在這個事情上做出討論做出決議那"},{"start":3618.132,"end":3618.552,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3635.242,"end":3635.362,"text":"主席"},{"start":3655.707,"end":3670.542,"text":"理事長：老師說：侮蔑必須要被逼做功德：老師必須要兼任這件事情：所以再次呼籲：不管是學校營養師：跟團善營養師工作的分配：或是學校營養師除工人數的比例這件事情：都必須要納入專法的討論："},{"start":3672.303,"end":3696.455,"text":"學校營養午餐秘書是否採取專任?還是現在是新進教師抓交替?因為我們聽到很多現場的新進老師他可能甚至還只是代理代課老師他都還不是正式老師他就要被迫做五密的工作這件事情我們也覺得非常的荒謬而且如果五密的工作可以這樣不斷不斷的輪替那到底現場的很多法制的規範或者是必須要進行的業務它如何有連續性這件事情我們也覺得很嚴重"},{"start":3697.455,"end":3697.515,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3716.624,"end":3716.764,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3746.544,"end":3746.584,"text":"主席"},{"start":3763.78,"end":3789.809,"text":"目前食材的供應方法也非常多元﹐他不是只有供餐方式的多元﹐到底是誰來供餐﹐這個平台的食材安全的把關﹐是透過誰來把關﹐我們曾經聽過第一線的學校營養師﹐他們學校就是所謂的欠席委員關心的偏鄉的公辦公營﹐就是學校自辦的營養午餐﹐可是他們請得到的營養師﹐或請得到的廚工﹐或者是他們能夠拿到的食材﹐在沒有專法的規範底下﹐他們往往是最弱勢的那一群﹐"},{"start":3790.189,"end":3791.189,"text":"學校午餐食材安全的把關這件事情非常重要"},{"start":3816.255,"end":3816.435,"text":"實案事件﹚"},{"start":3836.579,"end":3837.58,"text":"食農教育法國民營養及健康飲食促進法"},{"start":3858.342,"end":3884.148,"text":"這兩大法先通過之後如果再搭配上學校營養午餐專法這三法通過以後到底現場的飲食營養教育該如何進行如何跨部會的溝通因為說實話目前食農教育法跟國民營養及健康飲食促進法都還是有一些現場執行上的困難還相關配套措施的不足所以我也希望教育部在後續營養午餐專法的規範當中務必要把食農教育法跟國民營養及健康促進飲食法的相關概念一併拉近討論謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":3885.908,"end":3886.409,"text":"侯孟楷委員"},{"start":3908.442,"end":3920.633,"text":"主席各位與會先進我想今天非常感謝主席召開這樣的學校午餐法的公聽會學校午餐法確實從過去現在我們討論那麼多我想開宗明義先講"},{"start":3922.168,"end":3947.038,"text":"永續發展目標讓更好的健康福祉 優質教育不平等以及負責任的生產消費這是全世界現在一致的共識也是我們共同努力的目標而營養午餐過去到現在當然是良善的一個用意也是保障我們所有學童的營養健康其實說實在話我們在講現在所有學童全國裡面"},{"start":3948.599,"end":3964.627,"text":"最多人使用而且能夠均衡營養以及最重視的一餐就是營養午餐但是過去我們在營養午餐的這個工以及辦理的方面確實還是三不五時都有相關的一個狀況發生所以怎麼樣能夠彌補這樣子的一個狀況發生就是有賴專法的一個設定"},{"start":3969.449,"end":3990.299,"text":"今天主席所討論訂立的一個提綱其實這幾個提綱我都可以直接回答每一個問題都是是我們一定要做經歷那麼多的重大食安事件午餐專法是否要訂相關的機制當然是要讓學生吃得安全健康跟安心這沒有例外"},{"start":3991.653,"end":4004.914,"text":"學校午餐影響學童的健康成長關鍵要透過午餐專法加強推動飲食教育達成正確的飲食習慣當然是而且應該現在就要做了過去沒做已經晚了我們現在趕快學"},{"start":4007.998,"end":4022.148,"text":"中央及地方政府針對學校午餐﹚投入資源﹚人力協助以及法規制定﹚讓我們學校公餐完善﹚當然是﹚以及偏鄉及偏遠地區的學校﹚人力資源不足﹚應該要改善"},{"start":4022.768,"end":4048.289,"text":"所以我們這一個專法就是要彌補這四大面向的一個不足的地方這一點也是為什麼我非常負責任也希望能夠跟各位先進業者一起共同來做下把現行的學校衛生法部分條文雖然已經有規範學校餐廳廚師 廚房管理以及團餐的食材準備但是法規內容都還僅限於原則性的規範"},{"start":4049.19,"end":4075.697,"text":"根本沒有針對實質的層面以及大家應該負責的地方來去做一個明確的一個要求所以針對學校公餐另訂專法符合當今學校飲食跟教育教育營養教育所需並且參考日本的學校給食法來立法我想這學校的飲食不只限於營養午餐的供給更應該要兼顧營養教育以及健康的目的"},{"start":4078.538,"end":4091.766,"text":"我自己的選區就是有所謂的偏鄉地區偏遠地區我過去也在教育文化委員會裡面質詢過教育部長我們常講營養士也好午餐秘書也好其實就應該是要專責專職專任"},{"start":4094.087,"end":4094.367,"text":"我那時候也有問阿"},{"start":4122.429,"end":4122.569,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4147.847,"end":4155.304,"text":"合理的學校以及合理的行政事務能夠有專人來去做負擔 來去做負荷"},{"start":4156.243,"end":4184.278,"text":"而不是真的都變成是說新的老師新的教師進來之後他相對是比較倒楣所以這一點是我們共同在推動學校午餐法法制化的過程裡面我們一定要開宗明義並且也要求政府部門一定要重視這樣的事情我常在講立法的過程裡面或是行政機關在做事的時候其實要做與不做只要看兩點"},{"start":4185.66,"end":4199.776,"text":"第一有沒有錢第二有沒有人其他都是空話如果說政府機關開宗明義講的冠冕堂皇或是漂亮的話誰都會講但是有錢有人才是重點"},{"start":4200.817,"end":4220.943,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們非常在意的就是當學校公參法我們真的要立專法的時候也請相關單位一定要去突破要去思考我們怎麼樣把原額的這樣限制或者是用另外聘任的一個方式有專責專職的人以及你的預算編列一定要專款專用"},{"start":4222.503,"end":4237.523,"text":"最後我想在保障學生的身心發展、健康以及培養學生尊重、珍惜食物觀念提供安全、營養、健康、公平的校園飲食這一點都是我們共同追求的目標所以"},{"start":4239.096,"end":4263.427,"text":"責無旁貸的重大任務我身為兩個孩子的父親我也是在教育文化委員會裡面我們希望一起共同推動的立法委員所以今天特別利用這個機會我把我的意見表達並且我的立場非常說明的非常清楚我也希望等一下雖然我離開但是我的辦公室也會持續的聆聽各位先進的高見"},{"start":4264.187,"end":4278.939,"text":"我們共同努力在今天彙整大家意見之後在之後進行逐條的部分我們一定會要求行政部門落實我們今天所有先進所提出來的相關意見以上再次感謝大家祝福平安謝謝"},{"start":4301.957,"end":4323.751,"text":"各位與會的長官、貴賓大家好我是食品技術協會的現任負責人曾盈友由我來這邊跟大家講述我們協會的立場跟看法首先我們還是先不免俗地還是要提一下就是雖然午餐基本上是非常多人在關心人只要一多的話在食安的管理上其實就很多問題會發生所以在統計資料上"},{"start":4327.253,"end":4348.694,"text":"竟然上校園午餐的中毒事件或相關實案事件其實它是名列前茅的那而在校園午餐專法的過程中到底關心的是什麼到底是所謂的價格、美味還是營養還是我們認為最基本最基本應該做到的安全跟衛生呢而在安全衛生的部分上"},{"start":4349.375,"end":4367.242,"text":"目前我們所有目前看到的版本不會演就是主要的專業人員就是營養師但是在目前國家的規範上我覺得食品技師也應該要納入考量因為我們是國家高考目前32個技師裡頭我們現在是第三個"},{"start":4371.303,"end":4381.656,"text":"最多人的但是目前在這樣的一個所謂的校園午餐專法裡頭我卻看不到我們的影子我覺得有點可惜那"},{"start":4383.681,"end":4412.47,"text":"為什麼要把我們食品機師納入考量是因為這樣才是全面的我們不是說今天完全不懂餐飲相關我們就說我們要進去不是的目前在團善業者五星級觀光飯店運輸餐盒業者本來就要拼了我們這樣的角色所以學校午餐專法如果今天要開始把它專業化管理那為什麼我們不能盡一份心力呢"},{"start":4413.51,"end":4439.695,"text":"那相關的背景﹐包含甚至剛剛前面講的﹐營養師主要做的是﹐做所謂的規劃營養的部分﹐也就是吃進去的部分﹐而我們負責的就是還沒有吃進之前﹐我們應該怎麼做﹐甚至包含剛剛前面有講的﹐如果我們今天要把風險下降的話﹐應該要做的叫做所謂的預防管理﹐也就是所謂的供應鏈管理﹐那這也是我們的專業﹐所以才會說﹐"},{"start":4441.075,"end":4460.684,"text":"在這個專法裡沒有看到有點可惜那順便推廣一下我們協會基本上在6月7號世界食品安全日我們其實都有辦一些活動像今年我們就有跟所謂的學校就是一些合作然後我們去辦所謂的學校的教育讓小學生來投稿"},{"start":4461.424,"end":4486.434,"text":"這個是我們協會目前的網站目前在投票,如果各位有興趣的話可以去投我們有接近100位的小朋友的作品都在上面所以在食農教育上面我相信我們食品機制協也可以扮演一定的角色那最後還是不免說介紹一下就是我們協會我們後面還有幾頁投影片就是協會的部分基本上我們其實已經成立10年今年11年了那我們目前的專業會員的話產官學員都有"},{"start":4489.255,"end":4515.3,"text":"這是我們的責任的部分所以我們的工作其實一直都是跟食安息息相關的而我們剛剛前面有講所有的12個目前看到的草案版本主要都只有看到營養師我們並不是要排擠營養師我們是希望跟營養師合作發揮1加1大於2的效益營養師負責的專業項目跟我們負責的專業項目基本上是有點差異的包含像是目前在公共工程委員會這邊"},{"start":4516.98,"end":4517.421,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會．"},{"start":4535.871,"end":4554.807,"text":"所以才會非常建議應該要把食品技師這個角色給納入那這個基本上是目前在衛福部這邊其實他本來就有公告所謂的食品技師專業人員的部分應該扮演的角色那包含所謂的在哪些業者要聘任的部分所以並不是完全沒有經驗的"},{"start":4556.715,"end":4556.735,"text":"10大職責"},{"start":4583.837,"end":4609.204,"text":"最後這一頁投影片是我們食品技師協會的主要訴求基本上在所有的版本裡頭我們花了一點時間去研究主要有幾個面向是可以去扮演的第一個面向當然就是所謂的中央跟地方的委員會那目前建議應該是把食品技師這個角色也放進去那基本上可以提供所謂的專業的意見再來第二個部分是所謂的學校學校每一年應該要做定期的"},{"start":4611.069,"end":4613.17,"text":"學校工艙及飲食交易推動的會議"},{"start":4641.729,"end":4662.5,"text":"致行公餐要聘任所謂的營養師一個角色的話我必須說當量大的時候你再多一個營養師那就是兩個一樣背景的人在那邊討論我們會建議是當如果擴大的時候是不是除了營養師以外是不是也可以再考慮食品技師這樣子的話會讓效益1加1大於2以上是食品技師協會這邊的分享謝謝各位"},{"start":4665.35,"end":4666.051,"text":"王洪威委員"},{"start":4682.959,"end":4699.769,"text":"主席 各位委員 在座的學者專家還有各位教育先進 大家早安我是來自宜安縣原三鄉同樂國民小學的總務主任 葉明正 葉老師我投入教育職場是28年 我28年前"},{"start":4701.99,"end":4721.262,"text":"當任司系老師的第一天,我的校長就是請我擔任學校的午餐秘書而且我們學校的當時的午餐的廚房就是在我手中開辦起來的那我的學校後來,我在學校服務這麼久,28年以來,我的學校曾經歷經了自設廚房"},{"start":4722.623,"end":4743.97,"text":"也曾經把自設廚房委外給團善業者來經營那也曾經有一陣子是沒有辦法到學校來設廚房所以是由團善業者的中央廚房來供餐那後來團善業者又很多的奇奇怪怪林林總統很多因素夾雜之後到現在我的學校是由"},{"start":4745.09,"end":4762.377,"text":"國教署補助在一個我們鄰近的學校設置了一種區域集中型的中央廚房然後來做公餐所以我的學校經營了非常多午餐的辦理的方式所以我長期處在這個整個公餐流程的最末端也是最前線所以有一些經驗"},{"start":4763.638,"end":4783.549,"text":"跟觀察跟想法很高興今天可以來參加這樣的公聽會那事先有收到12份的那個議案關係的文書那我昨天還有發現科委員昨天也有提出一份所以我是把這13份的文件總共看了一下之後根據今天的提綱做一些我一些個人的看法"},{"start":4784.349,"end":4812.335,"text":"那首先第一個當然是我想要決定我覺得說立專法絕對是有必要的目前我們所有的都是有很多的實施計畫、作業規定還有指導手冊的用這樣的面貌跟形式在作為學校辦理午餐的工作準則事實上內容太多了多如牛毛而且項目包羅萬象而且因時因地可能都有不同的見解所以執行上是非常的混亂那"},{"start":4813.855,"end":4837.173,"text":"所以這是我覺得說我很支持說可以立專法的一個很重要的目的然後我在這邊有比較出有四個委員的版本包含科委員的版本他都有提到一個很重要的精神因為我看到的是一個整體的系統觀就是為了我們要解決這個跌床駕屋多頭馬車所以委員們都有思考到要排除一些不再適用的法律那我覺得這個精神就告訴我們"},{"start":4838.294,"end":4855.236,"text":"立專法不一定是加法的思維也要有減法的思維我們很期待這個專法能夠朝向減化這些減化跟整併午餐工作原則的方向去做思考這個是在我從主席的那個版本裡面看到一個非常重要的特徵"},{"start":4856.918,"end":4881.216,"text":"我希望立法的宗旨其實在各個委員提到的面向都非常多因為午餐問題的面向本來就很多但是各方的意見非常多元其實我們都會看到都會提到飲食教育的重要性不過我也要很誠實的跟在場諸位委員跟政府機關代表說其實大多數的現場一定會期待"},{"start":4881.937,"end":4882.177,"text":"委員提倡委員提倡"},{"start":4904.295,"end":4905.897,"text":"學校午餐法制化公聽會議"},{"start":4928.638,"end":4946.172,"text":"然後第三點我要講的是基層普遍來講對於這個法是既期待又怕受傷害那螢幕上的這張表是我們的午餐秘書我在現場看到的午餐秘書每天早上靜靜夜夜去做那些Q章制度的登錄"},{"start":4947.173,"end":4947.273,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4962.49,"end":4986.486,"text":"實際的孩子他食品安全的一個最重要保障所以呢這個時候我就會看到我的第四點意見就是在目前所有的版本的法案包含今天政府部門所提出來的版本裡面其實我們仍然沒有看到有一個給予午餐秘書真正的編制定位還有相關人事經費依舊非常的模糊這是這個很重要的這個是宜蘭縣的資料"},{"start":4988.027,"end":5013.01,"text":"請大家要特別注意60%是老師兼任沒有錯然後你們的措施都是給老師檢課可是不要忘記了還有30%是職員在兼任我們沒有辦法我們沒有任何的措施是可以給予兼任的午餐秘書的職員一些優惠所以這方面其實還是要再拜託我們現場需要的是專職專責的午餐人力那最後一點是"},{"start":5016.243,"end":5038.371,"text":"有5個版本的委員提出了要匡列經費 非常感謝那也有劉建國委員的版本特別提到我們的經費要保障對食材費用的保障每2年根據物價指數來去調整食材經費這是一個好事 但是我也要拜託大家 裡面有3個版本提到非常高額的罰則"},{"start":5039.631,"end":5057.364,"text":"那雖然有理但是學校是學校工餐的末端是消費者還要被面臨這樣子的一個高額的風險那其實應該要相關去全合這樣子的一個蘿蔔跟棍子之間那以上這是我的四點意見謝謝大家好非常謝謝葉明正總務主任把所有委員的版本做一個比對我想這是非常重要的接下來"},{"start":5071.943,"end":5074.764,"text":"今天很高興召委以教文的這個部分我們的名義召開這個學校營養午餐的一個法制化"},{"start":5097.469,"end":5124.89,"text":"公聽會這代表教文委員會非常重視這樣子的一個議題也希望教育部趕快把版本送進立法院這件事情我們等很久了我們也看到新聞不斷的在提說有機會要通過我們預計都希望但是目前我都還沒有看到教育部這邊的一個版本近年來學校營養午餐以及校園食安議題備受關注學校的營養午餐更是家長"},{"start":5125.831,"end":5153.864,"text":"以及各界高度重視的一個教育措施一份健康的營養午餐不僅能帶給學生健康好體力更是建構一個師生良好飲食習慣的一個絕佳機會然而現今的中央政府未制定專法以及專法授權條款各地方政府因為財政狀況及地方的考量造就各縣市午餐的政策多頭馬車的一個形態"},{"start":5154.904,"end":5169.237,"text":"我來自台中我擔任過里長議員我們在議員的時候就一直在表達各縣市營養午餐的補助不一導致營養午餐營養也撐吃不起"},{"start":5171.313,"end":5184.345,"text":"107年監察院的午餐調查報告就指出學校營養午餐經費分配不均營養師學校廚師人力不夠包括我自己也常遇到廚工跟我們抱怨薪資的問題"},{"start":5185.726,"end":5191.109,"text":"我們更希望午餐品質稱之不齊等問題都應該一併一起解決當臨近的日本與韓國分別於1954年1981年已經訂立了《學校計時法》"},{"start":5202.148,"end":5223.758,"text":"台灣至今沒有相關統合規範讓執行單位可以去依循顯見台灣在法規上已經落後落後再落後台灣催生出亞洲第一部病人自主權利法亞洲第一部家庭暴力防治法也是亞洲地區第一個同性婚姻合法的國家"},{"start":5224.378,"end":5246.549,"text":"但法制化的過程中,台灣有很多很多亞洲第一,但是在教育議題上,在飲食議題上,台灣就落後世界很多很多所以我們急需一部高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育的條例,來提升校園的公餐品質"},{"start":5247.669,"end":5262.798,"text":"並且透過專法在政策制定﹐志願投入﹐人力的協助﹐以及管理的執行單位﹐讓學校的營養午餐的相關體系能夠日出於完善本專法在108年前有進行預告"},{"start":5263.871,"end":5288.311,"text":"那時候的名稱還是學校午餐條例然後在112年113年召開多場諮詢會議以後在今年的3月報請行政院審議名稱也修正為高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例從108年到113年5年那麼久才報行政院相關的條文內容不曉得"},{"start":5289.812,"end":5308.669,"text":"108年預告的版本有多大的差異我們不得而知等一下可以請教育部說明一下但我要講的是現在的現行做法學校學生的午餐執行秘書多由老師來擔任所以在3月19日我有召開一場記者會"},{"start":5310.51,"end":5326.267,"text":"記者會的訴求我想我跟我們的林碩傑理事長也一起來為這個學校這個午餐秘書來發聲就是要給老師更多的佳績要讓老師擔任學校的午餐執行秘書我想"},{"start":5327.248,"end":5353.133,"text":"對於這個目前的困境大家多半都知道我希望教育部在未來條文裡不要虧待老師學校的午餐衛生安全要求條件多配餐的份量大與一般的餐廳和家庭的餐點配置完全不同需符合國民的營養健康要讓孩子願意吃吃的飽又不能一昧的迎合學童的一個口味"},{"start":5356.076,"end":5370.053,"text":"專業營養師開立菜單,公善管理十分重要,也希望午餐秘書一職不能忽略營養師及食品技師的專業角色,我們更希望大家要重視專職"},{"start":5372.136,"end":5372.156,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5397.238,"end":5421.058,"text":"執行秘書這絕對不是單單的一個小秘書這麼簡單的工作他像是在經營一個超大超大的一個學校餐廳他要經營他要配置他要管理人力甚至要面試甚至要去了解然後要不斷不斷的將這些所謂的每日公餐的一些配散要把它做成"},{"start":5422.359,"end":5422.699,"text":"好 我們謝謝羅廷偉委員 謝謝"},{"start":5461.397,"end":5462.542,"text":"好 接下來我們請柯州委員發言"},{"start":5467.983,"end":5486.938,"text":"謝謝主席還有今天與會所有的專家學者我想我們今天邀請到的都是屬於在營養午餐第一線非常關切而且很多都是執行者那我想我必須要說我離開立法院4年從2016年到2020年是第9任的立法委員然後呢我今天為什麼要特別排營養午餐就誠如我兩個禮拜之前排的學生輔導法一樣我很難想像離開了這麼久回來之後還是看到這兩個法案"},{"start":5495.024,"end":5503.045,"text":"還沒有送進我們立法院 這完全是非常匪夷所思的剛剛大家所提到的包括這個午餐的執行秘書的問題還有包括我們過去學生福大法裡面的師生筆到底該如何到目前為止已經過了這麼多年了我們還是都在研議的階段我希望今天是最後一次召開營養午餐的公聽會下次看到的話呢就是把這個專法能夠送到我們立法院來好好來做一個審查"},{"start":5524.189,"end":5524.67,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":5539.611,"end":5543.332,"text":"但6年來為什麽都不見蹤影我想可能等下教育部對於有關於這個午餐秘書還有包括時程的部分這兩個問題是必答題那我想吃的健康是每個人都非常的關切可是每個人都告訴我們目前全國中小學大概有3500所的學校是有營養午餐但是呢22個縣市大概是有22個不同的一個樣態"},{"start":5564.756,"end":5564.856,"text":"規納出幾個公約數"},{"start":5581.181,"end":5584.904,"text":"一國多制午餐專法要一直在原地踏步"},{"start":5604.463,"end":5631.137,"text":"所專法必須要釐定中央跟地方的權責而且財源跟經費的編列方式一定要說明清楚很多的法說實在的我們在幫老師講法幫學生講法所以是背後呢我們都祈求教育部能夠給予大家更好的一個分配資源的一個分配其實卡在就是一個經費的問題當經費進來之後呢中央有中央的看法地方有地方的看法"},{"start":5631.897,"end":5637.901,"text":"6都可能好一點,地方縣市在一個經費非常匱乏的狀況之下其實它就有很多其他的漏洞可以來鑽所以經費跟財源的編列方法就是我們嚴格要求一定要明定清楚的那我相信除了剛剛所提到的我要特別提出來像美濃的濃度國小它是一個我不能算是偏遠的地區可是大家如果知道美濃的話就知道他們其實很多老師下班之後都會去種田"},{"start":5659.873,"end":5662.816,"text":"龍渡國小是美濃九所學校唯一要求還是自辦的因為他們非常重視他們的食農教育他們所給孩子供應的都是他們旁邊無毒的甜、有機的食品"},{"start":5675.987,"end":5693.488,"text":"這對他們來說是他們覺得引以為傲﹑而且可以與大自然來過在一起的然後我也相信可是因為他們這樣的一個部分裡面卻被教育部有一個偏鄉學校中央廚房的這樣的方案我也相信教育部利益良善但是在利益裡面的很多行政的規準"},{"start":5694.389,"end":5695.45,"text":"反而對於很多重視食農教育的學校"},{"start":5710.683,"end":5711.123,"text":"公餐時間、供應方法"},{"start":5728.194,"end":5733.715,"text":"午餐費的收取跟補助還有營養師當然我剛剛也聽到的祭司的這個設置跟職責還有內容跟菜單那我們都很希望今天透過這樣的一個專法能夠來提出一些修正的意見然後也有的家長提到的是不是需要有家長的參與或來監督那我想這也可以來做一個討論還有一個比較細節的問題像是統餐這個用送的過程實在太長很多人10點"},{"start":5755.7,"end":5761.704,"text":"出餐送到12點開放的時候已經不夠溫熱了然後大鍋飯這也是然後去年調查各位我們有八成的學生午餐你相信嗎調查的時候他們認為午餐吃不飽我也覺得為什麼吃不飽因為我們留下一堆的剩菜廚餘所以很顯然在菜單的設計上面跟孩子的口味上面我們或許更需要更精緻一點而且我們根據調查有四成的學校每週提供兩次以上的丸子"},{"start":5784.838,"end":5786.139,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會．"},{"start":5804.611,"end":5804.791,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5827.882,"end":5830.364,"text":"教育政策研究中心主任鍾坤智"},{"start":5858.004,"end":5876.76,"text":"主席以及各位關心營養午餐的朋友們大家早安全國家長 全國高級中學家長大聯盟呢我們有全國的會員在北中南東離島都有大部分都是高中的會長副會長所組成我個人曾經擔任108學年度109學年度的師大附中的家長會會長"},{"start":5878.581,"end":5903.688,"text":"我們從小學：我的孩子現在是大三跟大一我們孩子從小學開始就有參與這個營養午餐我自己也參任小學的新義國小的一個家養午餐的委員我想我後面有一些背景的圖可以給各位參考一下這個是一家媒體它所做的一個營養午餐剛剛有提到它的費用補助各縣市的一個狀況下一張"},{"start":5907.441,"end":5916.392,"text":"這個剛剛委員很多人也提到嘛沒有統一的收費機制漲價的問題也很複雜就是收費到底因為我們全台灣22縣市目前有10個縣市營養午餐是免費的OK 這個問題也很複雜再來下一張"},{"start":5925.336,"end":5942.189,"text":"我們現在營養午餐的型態大家都知道有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營那各縣市的比例又是如何我們發現北部的好像比較多是民辦民營或公辦民營中南部比較多是公辦公營我不是幫團善業者講話因為我現在看到我們的很多專法裡面特別有提到一件事情叫做自設廚房"},{"start":5954.761,"end":5980.779,"text":"如果我們設的專法未來是要銜接現況都要朝自設廚房的方向去走行得通嗎我覺得這個部分是值得我們來思考的一個非常重要的一個問題我覺得自設廚房當然是最好但是困難度也非常高我想我在各種公聽會我都提到一個非常重要的問題我們營養午餐現在在學校是代辦費用所以它定位是代辦費"},{"start":5982.04,"end":6008.208,"text":"但是呢 也有媒體問到一個問題各縣市有那麼多縣市是不用錢的它是不是變成福利政策那我們現在要立這個專法它是教育政策嗎我覺得這個定位可能要先講清楚第二個 這個專法我們希望說它的範圍對於公立學校能夠從幼教我們目前多半只規範到高中職但是我希望公立的大學也能夠納入做一個考量"},{"start":6009.008,"end":6009.528,"text":"公辦民營 民辦民營熱食部"},{"start":6025.6,"end":6025.62,"text":"規範收費問題"},{"start":6048.283,"end":6060.173,"text":"我想收費的問題呢已經有一些不同的人跟我反應我也特別問了一下嘉義地區某國小的校長他說他們學校現在營養午餐因為是公辦公營他的收費只有27塊"},{"start":6062.403,"end":6082.176,"text":"各位臺北市我們昨天還跟一個朋友在聊他的小孩在某國中臺北市某國中民辦民營的收費是65塊那對於我們家長來講同一所剛剛就有我們的專家提到說同一條路上都有不同的收費機制我們同樣的國民家長繳費為什麼有這麼多元"},{"start":6083.777,"end":6093.465,"text":"所以我建議我們在專法裡面應該像剛剛柯委員提到的我們是不是有一些補貼的機制能夠在收費這一塊能讓家長不是副班的問題為什麼有人免費為什麼我要繳為什麼我很倒楣念這個學校我營養午餐要繳65塊另外一個學校只要繳22塊我覺得這不公平我們應該在政策上有補貼再來剛剛特別提到就是說很多人提到人的問題我特別問嘉義這個國小的這個校長他說"},{"start":6112.64,"end":6119.507,"text":"他從一百多人的學校到五百多人的學校都沒有營養師那我問他 你的菜單誰開啊他說都是廠商開的"},{"start":6121.065,"end":6141.613,"text":"各位這樣的東西就像我剛剛為什麼說那個表這樣的一個現象在我們教育部應該知道在我們所有的地方非常普遍我們可不可以每一個學校的營養午餐都有營養師至於他到底是依區域依人數還是依怎麼樣我覺得可不可以再重新規劃不要那個什麼40班一個營養師那種規定我們能不能打破這個參考再來就是說這個"},{"start":6148.637,"end":6163.453,"text":"剛剛很多人提到一個問題就是哪個哪個要多少專業的人我們現在的營養午餐為什麼要立專法我們有專業高品質的要求可是我們做這件事情的所有人幾乎都是兼職的我們要兼職的人做出專業的水平可能嗎"},{"start":6164.834,"end":6188.858,"text":"我覺得這個東西是值得我們思考所以我們在專法裡面也應該要好好的去規定這些再來我很贊同剛剛有一位我們專家提到的檢法因為這個校長他有提到說營養午餐只是日常的一小部分可是關於午餐還有被其他單位綁死的彈性空間加上專法他擔心這專法如果沒有配套措施到位學校的行政沒有人要做了"},{"start":6189.639,"end":6218.354,"text":"各位我們的莊長做下去的目的是希望孩子吃得開心吃得健康但是這個部分很有必要最後我提到一點就是說我希望我們不要拘泥於三菜一湯的這種觀念因為我們小孩子現在飲食太多元的我們孩子只有在特餐的時候吃飯吃得特別開心我們能不能天天試特餐我們在菜單規劃這一塊能不能有一個專門的方式能夠讓各校可以參考孩子能夠吃得開心吃得健康這是我們家長最大的期望謝謝大家"},{"start":6219.4,"end":6219.94,"text":"王洪威委員"},{"start":6235.866,"end":6255.537,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位夥伴大家早安基本上來講因為時間有限所以我就直接照著今天的講綱做一些簡單的說明第一個有關於怎麼樣才能夠營養健康安心其實很簡單專職才能專責已經很多先進講過了所以我建議立法的重點應該是在管制疏失責任"},{"start":6256.417,"end":6284.631,"text":"在個人的部分限制他未來的職業我的意思說如果出問題的話在公司的部分當然就是限制他的設立跟重罰那目前有類似的機制但是我覺得不夠重講直白一點那再來就是我們希望立法的部分能夠一開始就做好驗食的工作重視源頭管制這個部分沒有做其實很多東西等到吃下肚子才出問題那就是衛生局的事了那再來就是營養健康的前提是剛才有先進講過了要吃啊"},{"start":6286.087,"end":6313.158,"text":"現在問題是我們有時候半開玩笑講說那我們今天去吃一頓不健康的什麼意思就是好吃的通常不營養也不健康那這是目前最大的問題尤其是等一下下一題我會提到叫做是不是能夠透過老師的飲食或營養教育就逼孩子能吃不好意思現在是不能強迫的所以基本上來講我們的建議是營養是很重要很多專職都很重要但是目前我們對廚師這個部分好像包含我們的禁用都是叫做廚工"},{"start":6314.238,"end":6314.278,"text":"主席"},{"start":6329.189,"end":6329.229,"text":"主席"},{"start":6350.717,"end":6350.977,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6370.834,"end":6386.983,"text":"我要說一句實話因為現在現在中華民國的法律就是規定老師沒有管教權只有管教義務我我我我經常跟官員講你其實最大的德政叫做把交通罰則都取消不准罰民眾錢叫警察上街管教就好了看我們的交通會變好"},{"start":6388.164,"end":6412.575,"text":"當你不能罰只能管的時候現在就在做每天中午吃飯老師都在陪吃飯都在教孩子正確的飲食習慣都在教營養學可是他不吃整桶倒掉的時候你一點責都沒有這才是目前我們遇到最大的困境而且你也不能逼他說必須要把裝多少吃多少我們都在呼籲但是他裝多少就倒掉多少你也管不了這就是最現實的一個東西所以如果只是立法再去強調老師責任的話"},{"start":6413.795,"end":6414.815,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":6439.585,"end":6466.062,"text":"政府大量的投入資本開始蓋廚房浪費資源說實在的有人半開玩笑講一看到這部分條文就提到說民意代表未來幾年的競選經費大概輪流做廚房就有了我在這裡講這個話大概不討喜但這是實話簡單講就蓋一大堆的這些設備跟建設但是到最後其實你到底提供了什麼東西你甚至沒有能力去跟民間敬業這是一個最大的麻煩那什麼叫資源投入第一個就是基本上來講對於"},{"start":6467.463,"end":6493.485,"text":"比較沒有資本能力的公司的競業上的補足比如說透過獎謝條款讓他們表現好的可以有很多不錯的獎金跟相關的機制再來就是我剛才講的等一下後面也會提到偏遠地區其實你可以設示範廚房這個我反而沒有意見基本上來講因為就是避免有些地方他沒有辦法進行資本競業的時候那廠商當然就不願意接那這個時候其實就是政府該照顧這些偏鄉小校的時候那再來當然就是重賞跟重罰"},{"start":6494.205,"end":6518.374,"text":"我建立現在是沒有獎金機制的應該有獎金機制再來就是把資源放在平建上面然後罰金那個部分我就先不提了我是覺得罰金也要加重那什麼叫平建的機制我的建議是我們要專設平建委員會裡面包含專家 老師 家長 學生家長 老師 學生這三個部分請不要設立固定的委員應該是浮動委員機制簡單講用隨機抽樣的方式他們"},{"start":6521.255,"end":6535.784,"text":"平建出來的東西代表的意見才會最準而不會被我就不用再講那麼多那當然專業人員包含營養師或者相關的一些專家學者本來就應該在裡面那最後一個部分就是我建議要有專職的人力志願很多夥伴剛才前面講過我最後再會做一個簡單的總則"},{"start":6537.565,"end":6561.926,"text":"政府最大的責任其實本來就是去外部吸引還有公共財所以邊鄉地區的午餐基本上沒有什麼know-how就是給人給錢然後我其他就不再講了最後我做一個其他部分的補足如果立專法但是卻為德不足只是為了多一點錢跟預算然後到時候大家又可以上下其手的話那我該要唱出一個逆風的意見我覺得那不如不要立那如果真的要立的話建議第一個部分不要省錢"},{"start":6563.047,"end":6586.161,"text":"該有人的就要給人不要再讓老師去兼職很多先進講過了也不要再讓校長去扛責我們本來就不是學這方面的東西的可是我不懂政府每次設一個什麼東西就是省錢全部叫老師跟校長去兼然後我做不好再來罰我說實在的那就讓我們的師範教育再全能一點裡面記得要教這些東西那再來就是我希望能夠強化平衡"},{"start":6586.801,"end":6589.604,"text":"好 謝謝楊理事長你還是一如過去一樣講出官員都很不想聽的話"},{"start":6616.078,"end":6619.955,"text":"我們接下來請王宏威委員然後接下來我們請郭玉琴委員準備"},{"start":6625.404,"end":6649.081,"text":"謝謝主席首先感謝我們教育委員會還有我們在場各位專家學者那麼對於我們學校孩子裡面大家這個營養午餐的重視跟關心我想在這邊呢特別也回應很多我們包含家長還有我們很多的這個教育界人士其實在學校裡面我們不但讓他吃得飽"},{"start":6650.222,"end":6650.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6667.54,"end":6671.102,"text":"包括我個人﹑邱振軍委員﹑呂一林委員﹑黃建豪委員﹑一共有20位委員提出了學校飲食健康促進法"},{"start":6688.03,"end":6692.512,"text":"我們其實所面對的就是怎麼樣讓我們這個營養午餐在整個的法令機制上能夠建立起來我想大家也都知道在我們的鄰國日本韓國都有相關的法令那我們會覺得在台灣來講其實我們更重視教育我們也更重視孩子吃的健康所以我們現在"},{"start":6711.36,"end":6713.083,"text":"通過這個法令的一個制定﹐可以讓整個台灣﹐能夠不要變成大家各行其事﹐我們大家也知道﹐比如說我們在各縣市政府﹐各地方來講﹐"},{"start":6726.863,"end":6732.304,"text":"因為大家資源的不一樣﹐或者財政能力的不一樣﹐所以可能在營養午餐的部分﹐可能會變成一國多制﹐而透過由中央來制定相關的法令﹐可以解決這樣各行其事﹐而且我們會希望﹐不管你今天是在都市﹐或者是在偏鄉﹐大家的孩子都能夠﹐達到同樣的待遇﹐比如我舉例來講﹐"},{"start":6757.409,"end":6785.549,"text":"臺北市臺北市因為確實我們的資源比較多所以我們在美國111年開始我們就已經確定我們是這個三菜一米有機三菜一米所以這個就是說也是比較一個進步的在營養午餐的方面但是我們欠缺的就是來自於中央的法令那我要大致的跟大家報告一下就是"},{"start":6787.651,"end":6796.901,"text":"在我所提出來的學校飲食健康促進法裡面其實我們很多版本非常類似我剛才也呼籲一下剛才楊理事長所講的其實我覺得營養午餐"},{"start":6801.186,"end":6812.693,"text":"他不應該僅僅只是吃我們現在的孩子確實有的人覺得吃得太好了所以我們的小胖子特別多我助理也給我找到一個資料比如說我們台灣國小學童的肥胖從2010年的28.2%上升到2020年的30.4%國中學童的肥胖率從25.4%上升到29.2%"},{"start":6829.923,"end":6834.745,"text":"我們能說他吃得不好嗎可能吃得太好但是吃得不夠營養然後造成孩童的肥胖甚至可能長期以來反而造成我們醫療資源上的負擔所以我們其實會希望的是透過這個法令除了讓我們的孩子吃得好吃得飽能夠吃得安心之外我們也希望能夠在他們的飲食教育裡面"},{"start":6858.917,"end":6870.885,"text":"也就營養午餐他應該成為教育的一環他不單純只是一個午餐而已因為他天天要吃所以他當然應該對飲食的教育也應該放在裡面還有包含他的習食教育也就是怎麼樣管理剩食我覺得這個部分也能夠透過這個法令能夠把教育的精神放在裡面"},{"start":6884.394,"end":6884.694,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6905.698,"end":6913.804,"text":"建立一個所謂的食材的供應中心如果必要的時候建立食材供應中心能夠確保我們營養午餐校園裡面的它的食材是有履歷認證的它不是來路不明的或者它可能會受到食安衝擊的但是另外一方面我們也希望"},{"start":6929.335,"end":6933.058,"text":"通過這樣的一個制度的建立 那麼我們也能夠去支持我們的在地食材比如我剛提到我們的有機山菜薏米 那甚至我們臺北市這個漁產公司也跟我反映 那是不是我們臺灣也有很好的漁產"},{"start":6949.65,"end":6949.77,"text":"我們會希望："},{"start":6975.137,"end":6980.862,"text":"通過……我想經過公聽會之後我們因為這個是得到跨黨派的一個支持而且都有提案我們也希望透過這個法令的修正可以讓我們的孩子營養午餐的制度能夠更為健全其實最重要的就是我真的覺得雖然我是臺北市的立法委員但是我覺得全臺灣的孩子應該一樣的吃得好吃得健康以上 謝謝"},{"start":7005.761,"end":7006.341,"text":"郭玉琴委員"},{"start":7031.009,"end":7054.13,"text":"不管是來自學校或者是來自其他各界的一些專家朋友的意見那當然我想就是因為長期以來各個縣市的學校的營養午餐的一些亂象其實也導致有一些當然在這幾年當中還是看到一些包含學校的營養午餐的一些食安上面的一個問題其實最重要的就是因為沒有一個母法來做一個規範"},{"start":7055.311,"end":7055.351,"text":"主席"},{"start":7081.34,"end":7095.999,"text":"雖然其實現在還有很多的一些意見跟很多的一些共識還需要更進一步的一個整合當然將來其實我們的包含我們的跨部會的部分也要怎麼樣來做一個同步的合作也是一個重要的一個重點"},{"start":7097.701,"end":7118.676,"text":"我想營養午餐的專法應該會是在本會期一個優先的一個法案那我自己的孩子現在讀國小那即將要上國中其實營養午餐他是否能夠在學校能夠吃的健康吃的營養這也是我相信跟很多家長朋友一樣我自己本身也非常非常的關心"},{"start":7119.036,"end":7119.316,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7146.745,"end":7146.945,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7175.896,"end":7192.445,"text":"沒有辦法能夠有效的來做這樣子的一個管理喔那相對的就像剛剛其實幾位委員也特別的提到包含日本跟韓國其實他們早在1954年1981年其實都已經做出相對的規範喔那為什麼我們台灣其實做不到"},{"start":7193.145,"end":7217.655,"text":"這個部分其實可能我們還要再更與時近鏡來定義所謂的這個營養午餐的一個專法跟魔法的一個部分其實我們現在比較擔心的就是在現在的青少年朋友們他們在不管是零用錢的花費排行第一其實就是所謂的吃零食喝飲料當然也影響到他們的一些健康的一個狀況包含31%的國中生他們是體重過重"},{"start":7222.237,"end":7222.377,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7245.509,"end":7262.723,"text":"希望是不是能夠從學校衛生法的第23條之一當中的規定就是每40班增設一位所謂的營養師增加到所謂的每20班增加一位的營養師因為我想其實我們"},{"start":7263.584,"end":7263.704,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":7282.01,"end":7289.877,"text":"葉主任有特別提到這個食慾的一個重要性那就是我們讓孩子在吃營養午餐的時候是不是也能夠知道他們今天吃的營養午餐是選用什麼樣的一個在地的食材然後再來就是他們是不是怎麼樣能夠對於所謂的這片土地以及對於我們的這個生命自然以及食物的一個尊重跟環保的一個概念其實我也特別把這個學校的飲食教育也納入在我的這個"},{"start":7309.873,"end":7310.774,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":7329.309,"end":7329.449,"text":"委員會 監督"},{"start":7355.026,"end":7355.526,"text":"有規劃辦理學校營養午餐"},{"start":7376.898,"end":7377.098,"text":"副教授請準備"},{"start":7407.856,"end":7432.289,"text":"主席好,各位委員還有各位先進,大家好我是小周師,那我現在是任職於石家安,那我是總經理特助那如同我上面介紹,我曾經做過節目製作人,我也做過總編輯,我也是史普書的作者,我也做過節目主持人那很特別的就是我在兩年前被陳明信偏進的團散這個產業那我必須說我不會怪他,因為說真的我進來這個產業之後,我發現這個產業很需要幫忙"},{"start":7433.389,"end":7433.51,"text":"主席"},{"start":7449.982,"end":7464.911,"text":"其實現在說真的營養午餐從業人員現況剛剛已經有前面有前面提到薪資偏低確實是一個我比如說營養午餐的尤其是廚師我們講廚師好了他跟外面的餐廳的薪資比起來他是不足的"},{"start":7465.265,"end":7491.634,"text":"他甚至是連你燒臘店那個沾頭在切肉的那個師傅他可能薪水都比他低你們有沒有想過就是對孩子煮這麼重要一餐的人他的薪資居然是不高的那再來是他的工時其實非常的長跟繁瑣我進這個產業之後我發現其實廚師他非常他需要很多很多的專業我在進這個行業之前我認識的大廚師們跟我講說小周你不要去營養午餐然後我跟他說那邊很難煮難煮又甜"},{"start":7493.795,"end":7494.556,"text":"中心溫度確實加熱 青菜要到85度 肉類至少到95度"},{"start":7513.527,"end":7513.847,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":7535.32,"end":7563.488,"text":"在寒暑假的時候,這些夥伴們其實無功可做當然他們的心思就是會跟各個公司去做協調、協議再來,營養午餐不好吃的原因我相信大家好像很常聽到這樣可是其實它在先天上有一些難度比如說你在調味料上你有很大的限制我們在很多為了孩子的健康其實沒有錯啦,會覺得應該要為了孩子的健康我們在調味料上要去做一個限制它"},{"start":7564.288,"end":7588.528,"text":"但是你可以回想現在的孩子們甚至是我們我們平常吃的口味的調味料它的豐富度是已經很多複合式調味料所產生的當孩子們吃習慣這些味道的時候我們在學校裡面的午餐卻只能用很基本的調味怎麼可能孩子一比有夠難吃啊真的很難吃啊因為你只用鹽巴味素啊對不起鹽巴糖啦然後胡椒粉啦"},{"start":7589.168,"end":7589.288,"text":"主席"},{"start":7606.563,"end":7606.683,"text":"蔬菜炒20秒"},{"start":7632.076,"end":7632.817,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":7654.074,"end":7681.537,"text":"總上這些﹐它其實有很多很多困難那加起來就是﹐人才的流失﹐它會讓很多知識專業﹐沒有辦法傳承下去我覺得這是比較辛苦跟為難的但是就是﹐我們不能因為難就不做事那我雖然﹐我現在也是學聯會﹐團善主事委員會的主任委員那我們做了很多努力其實我﹐最近我有出了三本書應該說這三年來第一本是臺灣國產魚鮮美味料理精選再來是小時候是讓料理變好吃的神經密集以及"},{"start":7681.937,"end":7682.497,"text":"臺灣好糧報道臺灣好糧報道"},{"start":7704.047,"end":7726.256,"text":"臺灣的雛工的夥伴第一個真的年齡偏高而且各地面對的狀況都不同但是他們面對這個狀況的時候他們還是沒有停止的想辦法要去把菜做好吃那我曾經那個跟大家說說這位會願意在第一線真的是對孩子有愛的人不然這麼高的張力這麼大的壓力其實是做不下去的最後呢我就是有一個"},{"start":7727.677,"end":7752.604,"text":"有一次我去招標然後在臺北市某國中那主任就問我說小宗師那你覺得食安跟美味哪一個重要我回答他說如果煮菜的人他用煮給家人吃的心情那食安跟美味都不會是問題法他是根本他很重要但執行法的人他的溫度其實更重要那以上就是我出錢的報告謝謝各位"},{"start":7753.49,"end":7753.67,"text":"立法院議員李坤澄"},{"start":7771.637,"end":7795.727,"text":"科總專要國務委員,各位先進大家好我是成功大學建築系宋立文今天其實很意外的有這個機會來跟各位分享我們過去這幾年看到一點事情可能有些角度跟各位先進有點不同但想說一點淺見供各位參考在幾年前我們因為意外在成功大學的人文社會中心有一個機會受到國調署委託我們到平鄉小學去做一些問題上的盤點"},{"start":7797.188,"end":7819.807,"text":"那我印象很深刻那一次我們去納瑪西亞的那個地區那學校特別拜託我們不要去得罪菜商因為如果我們得罪了他他連菜都沒得吃因為那個地方就只有一家菜商一個很小的貨車那我那時候印象非常的深刻就是怎麼會有這麼讓我覺得很不舒服的事情在台灣我們覺得我們都很富裕了那資源很豐沛所以就加入這個計畫做了幾年那"},{"start":7823.11,"end":7846.003,"text":"前兩年我們受國教組委託那時候彭署長找我到署內說我們有一個中央廚房計畫我們是不是能來試試看那我們就找了全台灣大概八幾個建築系營養食品系跟餐飲管理系相關的老師我們想說我們大學的老師們能不能幫您什麼樣的忙所以看到一些有趣的事情那過程就不說了我們直接跳到結果"},{"start":7847.243,"end":7874.262,"text":"關於午餐我們大概有一個這樣的看法在過去幾年的一些經驗中第一個我們覺得他午餐如同剛剛幾位委員講他已經不是吃飽的問題他可能要吃好那可能那個吃好第一個是營養第二個是他在學校裡面我們怎麼樣把這個吃好把如何準備食物如何吃如何上桌這些事情對學生來講其實是一個重要的一個教育的意義那所以對我們來講回到建築上建築其實不是蓋一個房子就好"},{"start":7874.682,"end":7875.002,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7892.921,"end":7911.957,"text":"各位看到這個照片是日本的一個日比野設計公司大家可以看到右上角那張照片小朋友其實在外面是可以看到廚師在裡面做什麼的那這時候廚師的感受會不一樣廚師對環境的要求會不一樣小朋友對這件事理解也會不一樣他吃到嘴巴的東西會不一樣或者是這張照片我覺得非常迷人是大家可以看到那個小朋友"},{"start":7912.897,"end":7941.629,"text":"非常好奇的看廚師在做什麼對我來講這個是教育的發聲的機會所以我們一直在想我們在幫教育部做這些平常廚房的時候是能夠有這樣的機會可以做我們提了一些可能的一些請各個學校可以有一些共識包括食物的產出場所應該是一個有趣的魔法室或者是陰暗的角落在學校裡面廚房常常是一個閒物措施可是我們可以讓它變成一個有美感的校園的空間或是把廚房打開來讓小朋友可以看到裡面"},{"start":7942.469,"end":7942.629,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":7958.04,"end":7973.828,"text":"這是我們現在可以看到的瑞芳國小的 裡面的設備當然經過很多人的幫忙做得非常的完善 也跟窗戶接近可是大家可以看到從外面來看 它有一些改變讓小朋友很喜歡到這個地方來趴在那兩張窗上面 看裡面的廚師在做些什麼事"},{"start":7974.828,"end":7993.873,"text":"桃園的新坡國小,他們在二樓甚至有一個小空間,大家看左上角有一個窗子那個窗子是一個非常漂亮的窗,看出去是一個桃園的水圳所以這個廚房它不是只有煮飯而已,它開始有一些新的機會可以做教育或是這個彰化的圓斗國小,這個裡面的設備,它整個房子造型,它一片打卡的景點"},{"start":7995.703,"end":8017.237,"text":"高雄南榮國中設備變得好之後外觀跟小朋友活動的空間我們都做了一些設定這些做完之後我們發現了有趣的事情了廚師改變了營養師改變了我要補充一點是這些的確都有專業的營養師因為署內有一個特別的經費讓中央廚房都有專業營養師在這些人的支持下這個設備"},{"start":8018.638,"end":8035.252,"text":"提升之後這些廚師的心態改變了營養師的心態改變了他那個食物的調理的方式也改變了同樣的菜他就是可以煮得特別的好吃他們甚至會做很好的食譜那所以甚至有些學校開始利用這個機會做了很好的那個一些飲食教育的場所那細節我就不講了"},{"start":8037.348,"end":8060.064,"text":"甚至於有廚房在新竹這個其實是原住民族的國民小學他們這個廚房竟然用原住民族的元素做還得了一個紐約的設計獎或者是有些學校得了城市工程秉持獎或土庫國小底下的紅磚結合地方的意象就這些廚房開始變成學校有趣的地方小朋友非常喜歡很多人會跑來打卡那在裡面工作的廚師營養師都非常引以為傲"},{"start":8062.605,"end":8090.103,"text":"會有很多的活動可以這樣子發生 細節就不提那這一張表示目前我們123間學校中其實有19個學校已經得獎了那這個得獎的目的不在於建築本身而是這些人因為這件事情而觸動的對這件事情的投入大家可以看到這個照片這個是營養師的普通的一個餐的照片就他甚至開始知道說我用白色的盤子可以讓食材被看得更清楚小朋友對這件事會有更多的理解而不是用那種以前那種大鍋飯的那種不鏽鋼餐盤"},{"start":8091.784,"end":8091.804,"text":"養殖師"},{"start":8121.944,"end":8122.084,"text":"吳春誠委員"},{"start":8152.843,"end":8153.084,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":8167.076,"end":8187.667,"text":"對於這個午餐共餐法是臺灣民眾黨列為優先的法案我們在開議一開始就首先在2月份的時候就開了公聽會跟各方深入的探討那所以呢這個"},{"start":8190.144,"end":8207.644,"text":"這裡要呼籲教育部,教育部去年年底就提出承諾在這個會期要提出草案但是到現在5月中了,這個法庭會期都快要結束了國人還是判不到教育部提出的草案,讓立法院來審查"},{"start":8209.326,"end":8235.068,"text":"所以現在這個午餐目前有12個不分黨派的提案大家可以看得出來都非常的共識那呼籲在今天的公聽會之後行政院要盡快的提出草案不要再以拖待變的心態來面對學生跟家長對這個營養午餐的"},{"start":8238.892,"end":8240.135,"text":"的渴望的需求"},{"start":8243.861,"end":8269.147,"text":"過去我們營養午餐缺乏統一的法規各縣市的管理方式不依一國多制也讓營養午餐難以控管讓各個學校各個不同區域無法滿足需求營養午餐的品質無法控管食安問題也無法把關"},{"start":8271.673,"end":8291.965,"text":"所以這個會期當中大家要有這個決心不要像日本韓國在半個世紀以前都已經有學校午餐法了台灣這麼落後實在太離譜了"},{"start":8296.028,"end":8308.936,"text":"最關鍵的還是要有決心教育部要有決心一個如果沒有決心你考慮的都是那些旁支錯節的問題你問題永遠無法解決那要有這個信念這個就是"},{"start":8316.226,"end":8342.412,"text":"我們要什麼錢都可以省孩子的午餐錢絕對不能省教育部有沒有這個信念當你把這個當作這個重要的優先的一個環節你所有的問題都可以解決而且要讓這個學校的營養午餐要比家裡好吃"},{"start":8344.71,"end":8347.793,"text":"要投入這個的錢政府絕對值得來花這個錢應該要有這樣的一個前提"},{"start":8360.335,"end":8379.01,"text":"民眾黨是以黨團提案提出的一個非常用心的一個完整的法案所以我們要求訂定午餐要有一個統一的規範現行的營養午餐有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營三種模式"},{"start":8380.051,"end":8397.661,"text":"但都缺乏統一的規範應該透過專法、立法、明確規範從食材的選購、配送、檢測到食譜的設計都要完善的規劃跟把關另外也要因地制宜對於一些偏鄉的關懷"},{"start":8399.523,"end":8419.324,"text":"有些偏鄉的人力經費相對的拮据營養師除工的負擔沉重還有一些偏鄉弱勢的孩童營養不良所以在這方面要特別的重視另外也要讓午餐變成"},{"start":8419.684,"end":8419.964,"text":"以上"},{"start":8449.535,"end":8449.776,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":8461.002,"end":8461.402,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8491.282,"end":8515.881,"text":"那我小孩就跟我講一句話媽媽我跟你講喔我們學校的午餐連豬都不吃為什麼豬不吃因為豬是吃收水的嘛這比收水還難吃所以他們學校有非常多的小孩在中午裡面就不吃然後下課的時候跑去外面吃便利商店的東西可是他們可能吃了非常多的進製澱粉含糖飲料所以其實是非常不健康的所以這也就是我為什麼這麼關心這個議題喔"},{"start":8518.864,"end":8537.998,"text":"現在我們在我國其實在高中以下吃營養午餐的小孩其實有超過230萬但是我們剛剛講的就是這食安不僅是好不好吃的問題連基本的安全可能都有一些困難連做到這件事情都有點困難甚至有弊案傳出那其實讓家長跟學生都非常的擔心"},{"start":8539.039,"end":8558.42,"text":"學校的午餐要吃得營養吃得安全是最基本的要求那其實教育部在2019年的時候提出一個學校午餐的專法但後來其實並沒有順利的進入立法院來審議那現在相關的規範都落在不同的法令規章裡面地方各政府也是各自為政學校一直沒有看到完整的政策以及法令"},{"start":8559.891,"end":8578.702,"text":"監察院調查報告提出各縣市學校營養午餐品質稱之不齊﹑投入經費不均學校營養師與廚工人力更有不足情況這幾年中央雖然陸續推出相關措施﹐包括國中小廚房精進計劃﹐爭取12.5億來改善學校的廚房設備"},{"start":8584.685,"end":8608.401,"text":"並且為了鼓勵學校午餐採用國內產銷履歷認證的安全食材三張EQ的補助經費也從過去的每人補助3.5塊提高到6塊錢2022年又再度提高到10元補助經費也從12億提高到35億也補助了弱勢兒童的午餐這使得學校午餐的國產食材從過去的60%到現在的98.6%但我想這個目標還是有再努力的空間"},{"start":8617.288,"end":8625.315,"text":"分散政策是無法支撐全國的學校午餐推動的業務對比鄰近的國家﹐日本和韓國﹐他們都已經推學校給食法法規上路了70年或40年以上"},{"start":8638.206,"end":8645.972,"text":"所以這就更凸顯了我國需要這部專法的一個急迫性需要以法律的位階來保障學校營養午餐的一個推動"},{"start":8647.642,"end":8670.087,"text":"譬如說管理學校營養午餐的這個管理營養師﹖依照現行法規﹖國中以下的學校﹖班數40以上﹖應設置1人﹖各縣市主管機關應設置若干人﹖但是我想現實的問題少子化﹖有多少的學校是可以達到40班以上﹖"},{"start":8671.147,"end":8687.023,"text":"大多數的學校現在有超過40班以上的學校是不到20%高中也低於40%所以現在的法令之下其實多數的學校是沒有營養師的那也使得營養師跟學生的這個比例呢達到了1比4千1比4千"},{"start":8689.565,"end":8689.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8721.266,"end":8743.038,"text":"學校午餐並不是只是吃進去健康這件事而已教育的功能也非常重要就像我剛剛講的 很多的國中的學生他寧願不吃 去外面吃這些精緻澱粉和糖飲料那其實為什麼呢其實孩子有沒有清楚的一個飲食觀念跟知識大家吃東西之前會去計算熱量嗎會去看食物的營養標籤嗎"},{"start":8746.94,"end":8747.2,"text":"剪輯剪輯"},{"start":8763.849,"end":8764.069,"text":"主席"},{"start":8782.53,"end":8801.963,"text":"這就是我們在營養午餐這個階段其實也需要幫孩子去建立的一個基本的知識他才有可能有一個基本的判斷能力去辨別什麼東西對自己是健康什麼是對自己可能有影響的而不是就聽信了網路的這些傳說然後就傷害到自己的身體那最後還有一件事情就是說我們吃進去的東西有沒有來認識我們的土地來串起飲食跟農漁業"},{"start":8803.184,"end":8822.306,"text":"推進我們的這個永續發展那其實學校現在其實也有在推行食農教育像我自己小孩念的國小我們就非常的例行在學校裡做這件事情從種植植物到配合節氣來瞭解這個食物種植這個食物對於土地跟對人的健康的一個影響然後帶著孩子去收成認識整個一個機制"},{"start":8823.507,"end":8823.887,"text":"王翠華執行長"},{"start":8849.279,"end":8855.406,"text":"謝謝柯委員各位親信大家早安全家總侯俊良理事長這邊來進行說明那我今天幾個方向"},{"start":8863.018,"end":8886.845,"text":"我想學校總經常對教育部有很多的一個意見的一個建議但是我今天真心的要幫教育部講話這一部的一個午餐專法的部分其實教育部真的很無辜因為只是發生的地點是在學校我們看今天的資料有農業部的資料有衛福部的資料有人事總署的一個資料這些資料裡面顯示一個問題"},{"start":8890.273,"end":8892.24,"text":"午餐的一個供應是一個非常專業的問題"},{"start":8894.861,"end":8922.269,"text":"但是這些專業的部分剛剛很多的一個先進提到就是要有專業的人員來做處理這個專業的人當然也包括經費的部分那這些都不是教育部能決定的所以至於這個專法拖了這麼久所以我這邊是要幫教育部講話那今天很多的一個先進所提到的我認為教育部應該要聽進去然後很大膽的把這些該改的應該在專法裡面去呈現出來"},{"start":8923.257,"end":8946.571,"text":"我們先回到這個立法的一個目的如果我們今天立了這個法不能解決現在的一些問題那不如不立這個法所以立了這個法就是要解決這個問題所以我今天分立法的目的 達成手段跟一個體驗的導向這體驗導向可能大家會覺得很疑問大家都講得非常好 食農教育但是我請問各位學校的午餐 中小學頂多30分鐘"},{"start":8953.154,"end":8973.999,"text":"如果是低年級的關管秩序關做處理他可能真正用餐的時間大概十來分鐘如何教育那是達不成的事情是沒有辦法達成所以他應該是一個體驗好 立法的目的剛剛都講非常多但是我覺得有一個重點就是要美味"},{"start":8975.236,"end":9000.091,"text":"那如果要美味 剛剛也有先進提到﹐你的廚師的專業人員﹐你出了多少的錢﹐就聘了什麼樣的一個﹐這樣的一個廚師﹐你怎麼去達成這個美味﹐他是沒有辦法達成的嘛﹐所以除了食材﹐除了這些專業人員的一個調製之外﹐當然營養師非常重要﹐那營養師﹐我們每一次去看所有的一個學校﹐當他廚餘很多的時候﹐就顯示兩個問題﹐"},{"start":9001.701,"end":9023.22,"text":"第一個 孩子不愛吃嘛那孩子不愛吃是怎樣包括我們的烹調各方面可能是出了問題第二個部分是沒有專人去管理阿如果每一次的一個食材都這麼多的一個剩餘我們是不是要去改變一下我的一個烹調我應該去統計一下各方面的一個處理那為什麼沒有人去做處理因為沒有專人處理"},{"start":9024.707,"end":9040.944,"text":"所以如果我們這個法沒有去改變這個東西不會達到這個目的一樣剩餘很多那我覺得最後的結果就是一個法但是後面現場很困難所以達成了一個手段專業的人員除了營養師午餐秘書"},{"start":9042.341,"end":9043.963,"text":"施考營養分析﹚經費分配"},{"start":9059.386,"end":9079.722,"text":"中央地方經費的分配應該要劃分清楚不要大家推來推去如果是該政府負擔的中央地方要講清楚另外一個部分家長要負擔多少這個要講清楚這個很重要你講得不清不楚到時候現場的一個執行就會發生很大的一個問題最後一個我要提到這個"},{"start":9081.107,"end":9089.192,"text":"教育部的資料講得非常好其實大家都了解健康與體育的領域已經把飲食教育都納進去了我們的一個課綱裡面學習重點分兩個項目一個是學習表現其實學習表現、認知情誼技能上面都已經有提到一些健康的一個知識各方面這些平常就在教"},{"start":9112.165,"end":9131.647,"text":"在整個學習內容裡面第5點 人、食物、健康消費這裡也在課綱裡面講得很清楚健康與體育什麼概念就是它每一週至少會有三節課至少會有一節課是固定在學校教書的已經把這些東西納進去各位可以看一下人與食物健康的一個消費"},{"start":9132.868,"end":9158.786,"text":"看他後面的一個說明包括所有的食農教育什麼都加進去了那這些平常就已經在進行了那為什麼我要在吃營養午餐的時候要去做這些東西而且沒有那個時間去做營養教育所以很多的一個立法版本有把飲食教育食農教育寫上去利益非常良好但是寫在上面沒有辦法去執行我認為應該改成一種午餐的一個這個美食的一個體驗"},{"start":9160.205,"end":9174.327,"text":"如果孩子覺得美味的一個食材他回去會跟家長講嘛我們是不是可以在家裡也創造出這樣的一個食材這樣的一個飲食出來那這才有辦法去改變我沒有辦法在一餐裡面又要吃飯又要教育什麼東西都來"},{"start":9175.966,"end":9193.4,"text":"這個是所有教育現場的老師一個很大的體會因為我們做不到那在整個我們的課綱裡面其實它是各年段喔各年段每週都有這樣的一個課程已經融入了最後應該是做一個前接我課綱裡面的一個內容跟營養師他開菜單各方面的一個處理要做結合"},{"start":9198.664,"end":9199.124,"text":"請教育部聽進去"},{"start":9218.239,"end":9221.96,"text":"謝謝侯理事長接下來我們請我們的黃翠華執行長然後范雲委員請準備親愛的委員親愛的主席親愛的所有大家好我介紹一下我自己我是埃森關海基金會的執行長也是中華民國營養士公會全國聯合會的學校委員會的召集委員我投入這個工作大概有6年多的時間"},{"start":9240.447,"end":9257.808,"text":"首先我要先說一下我們在做一個很重要很重要的事情為什麼這麼重要第一件事我們都知道我們的學童我們的生育率非常低全球倒數低跟南韓搶誰是倒數第一那所以每一個小孩都很重要多重要每個當保一定要好好呵護他健康長大這樣我們台灣才有未來"},{"start":9258.709,"end":9259.59,"text":"中文字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供"},{"start":9277.76,"end":9278.381,"text":"國中高中高血壓高血脂高血壓前期20%"},{"start":9299.975,"end":9316.38,"text":"高學子很難好跟一輩子所以這個都是健康大問題所以請問大家我們的孩子健不健康你一定會亮紅燈到底怎麼解決這個法就是解決之道所以我們要討論一個超重要的專法那我要說一件事情是孩子每天一禮拜每天吃三餐的話二十一餐一樣午餐包了五餐四餐到五餐"},{"start":9318.24,"end":9318.4,"text":"教育及文化委員會"},{"start":9338.464,"end":9339.125,"text":"教育及文化委員會：立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":9359.44,"end":9359.56,"text":"〈長高又變美〉"},{"start":9389.4,"end":9390.06,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9410.393,"end":9410.553,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":9430.12,"end":9430.98,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":9455.683,"end":9455.883,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9471.148,"end":9486.516,"text":"中央的人力配置有經驗豐富的營養師各縣市也是相同那這樣子我們就可以定出一個很適切的法那每一個孩子都可以被照顧到人權很重要那營養師的人力配置應該要怎麼樣思考呢其實我們覺得剛剛所說其實非常非常多營養師可以發揮的角色然後確保當然是菜單之外還有很多很多的工作可以做得很好所以我們的建議是應該是營養師的人力在公辦公營大家都知道自設廚房自己管"},{"start":9497.861,"end":9497.941,"text":"團善與養士"},{"start":9515.416,"end":9522.405,"text":"團善公司的介入：團善幫忙做了很多：廚房管理：人力管理的部分那公職營養師超級重要：為什麼你要做很多的監督之外：還有大量的營養：營養教育工作：還有跟學校怎麼協調：我們現在說聖食問題在哪裡呢：一個就是料理問題：另外一個就是教育問題 對不對"},{"start":9532.779,"end":9533.019,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9552.935,"end":9553.015,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9577.35,"end":9582.013,"text":"所以 廚師的人力也是非常非常重要那廚師不要叫廚工我們給他一個很好的名字叫廚務專員因為他是專門人員 對不對所以讓廚師們都有很好的廚師人力所以人力的配置非常重要那當然呢每次談到最後就會說人力錢不夠那我就常常會很傷心為什麼難道不重要嗎最後我要說的是我是癌症關節肺炎執行長為了想辦法幫助我們臺灣的小孩能夠更健康其實我們發展了一整套小一到小六12套全套的營養教育的"},{"start":9606.687,"end":9606.867,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9623.007,"end":9623.948,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9648.544,"end":9649.565,"text":"那我想這幾方的意見都非常的重要那我剛剛在辦公室裡面"},{"start":9678.444,"end":9678.564,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9701.417,"end":9707.423,"text":"學生身心安全健康,校安食安最基本回到營養午餐,我們食安有做到嗎?2023年我跟食藥署要的資料食藥署統計的食物中毒事件有"},{"start":9717.293,"end":9735.939,"text":"三分之一是在學校裡面那總共就有1491名受害者所以食安問題有三分之一在學校代表我們既有的就是公餐方式其實風險非常的高那當然也是去年我們民間團體調查國中生對營養午餐的看法74.8%不喜歡菜色61%裡面有他不喜歡的味道"},{"start":9743.942,"end":9743.982,"text":"主席"},{"start":9758.82,"end":9759.1,"text":"學校午餐教育法"},{"start":9776.821,"end":9776.841,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":9808.042,"end":9814.447,"text":"2021��2021年5月提出另一部：立法院率先跟民團提出要把學校午餐法：推動平台建立起來：開了記者會：後來跟其他委員一起推動食農教育法：三讀通過"},{"start":9832.682,"end":9861.81,"text":"我就昭告說我們下一步要推的就是學校飲食教育法那很高興我們現在教育部這終於就是說也在努力中那謝謝剛剛教職團體有幫忙點出很多問題說教育部的版本慢是有原因的那我想今天這個公聽會就是希望促成教育部加快腳步因為就是有這麼多委員而且現在成為我們跨黨派的共識那再來我們就應該努力的是"},{"start":9862.27,"end":9862.49,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9891.352,"end":9891.812,"text":"〈學校午餐法制化〉"},{"start":9914.264,"end":9915.846,"text":"韓國和日本都把他們的韓食和核食的精神能夠放在這裡面所以從營養師那包含學校的"},{"start":9938.328,"end":9938.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":9956.724,"end":9956.964,"text":"李慧琼教授"},{"start":9974.451,"end":9976.033,"text":"教育部學校午餐委員會實材供應中心幼兒園到高中都應該納入"},{"start":9990.947,"end":9991.307,"text":"教育及文化委員會主席"},{"start":10006.681,"end":10015.25,"text":"不應該用堅韌的堅韌的如果你又沒有讓他免刑又公道他等於是開了一家學校餐廳這麼多的人力營養師剛剛都有講過至少是500比1還有帳務管理、公餐資訊透明化還有飲食教育最後呢主管機關的檢查權應該要善盡督導查好的權責"},{"start":10028.223,"end":10030.025,"text":"請教育部營養午餐專法儘速提出更豐富的版本一起討論讓學生吃得開心家長安心教育委員就能放心"},{"start":10047.746,"end":10057.898,"text":"謝謝范芸老師接下來大家提到非常多從第一開始到現在都要提到午餐秘書我們就請我們的新北市的叉角國小的午餐秘書老師來6分鐘"},{"start":10066.365,"end":10082.696,"text":"主席、委員、各位先進專家們好我是叉角國校的午餐秘書我們學校是偏遠地區的學校我講一下我是代理代課老師然後我也兼任午餐秘書我同時還有兼任資訊組長"},{"start":10087.219,"end":10094.662,"text":"對,所以就是會蠻忙的,這樣對,然後所以就是也稍微,就是還是要講一下我的工作內容啦那也像林碩傑理事長這邊提到的這邊啊,宴菜、檢查菜單這些對,就是我要做的事情,對,好然後就是可能三張EQ啊,這些就是每天都要輸入,這樣所以今天來參加這個公聽會我昨天就先輸入完了,這樣"},{"start":10114.608,"end":10124.914,"text":"每天的午餐溫度、上船等當然還有前面委員提到的 也是要提供水果跟飲品所以這邊得到學生的回饋 真的是蠻現實的"},{"start":10128.976,"end":10129.296,"text":"同時還有兼任資訊組長"},{"start":10151.824,"end":10155.826,"text":"有很多課我還要上課還有學校的活動也要去支援所以常常會忙到七八點才下班所以在立專法我是滿認同贊成也針對食品安全的把關的部分特別是供應鏈供應的廠商提供來的食物"},{"start":10174.295,"end":10174.455,"text":"可溯源"},{"start":10198.166,"end":10198.686,"text":"施安演練：防災演練：提升偏鄉相關補助"},{"start":10215.878,"end":10220.321,"text":"提高偏鄉專責人員的工作意願除工的薪資及我們比較偏遠的地區在距離上及工作的工時上是比較難找到除工的"},{"start":10233.408,"end":10233.608,"text":"專業背景知識"},{"start":10255.894,"end":10259.935,"text":"希望可以設立這個專職專職的話也是因為我沒辦法長時間待在廚房裡頭那因為我有上課我又還有一些資訊的可能研習我需要去研習所以像就是我的手機就是要就是要一直看著我的手機這樣然後等一下12點之前我要上傳溫度這樣子對所以就是"},{"start":10277.859,"end":10285.704,"text":"希望可以設立專職專責化但同時希望資訊業務也不要影響到別的同仁我沒做專職專責化之後變成是別的同仁要去扛業務的量這是我的分享"},{"start":10300.914,"end":10300.954,"text":"謝謝楚喬老師"},{"start":10324.292,"end":10324.493,"text":"張信物理事長黃嘉琳秘書長"},{"start":10333.83,"end":10354.143,"text":"主席與與會夥伴,大家早安我是中華民國中小學校長協會的理事長張新武同時也是現任新北市新莊國小的校長所以剛剛特別謝謝立法院辦這次的公聽會能夠讓我們基層的學校還有各界"},{"start":10362.012,"end":10368.401,"text":"國民的健康是國家最重要的資產,尤其是國民教育階段的孩子更是關鍵中的關鍵"},{"start":10372.406,"end":10372.626,"text":"主席"},{"start":10399.689,"end":10401.43,"text":"教育部及各級學校"},{"start":10424.738,"end":10425.418,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10437.205,"end":10457.318,"text":"學校辦理午餐的一個人員：或者是相關的供應的廠商其實是抹煞了基層的努力那我希望各界可以給我們更多的一個協助跟指導因為老師畢竟不是午餐的專業"},{"start":10458.839,"end":10485.331,"text":"成如剛剛各個單位所跟大家分享報告的老師他很重要的是把孩子的教育學習讓他能夠在該階段的一些學習任務能夠達成那又要兼顧孩子的健康身心成長所以除了校長還有全校教職員工以外都承擔了非常重大的教育的責任"},{"start":10489.743,"end":10494.095,"text":"這個部分希望大家能夠就今天訂定一個"},{"start":10495.303,"end":10495.663,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10525.263,"end":10525.303,"text":"主席"},{"start":10542.91,"end":10545.092,"text":"希望能夠達到供應系統化"},{"start":10564.517,"end":10565.719,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10581.218,"end":10581.678,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10603.576,"end":10632.791,"text":"就是除了說兼顧營養以外也要讓孩子能夠願意來使用這個學校的午餐大家都覺得說學校午餐烹煮在營養兼顧之下又要讓它美味孩子要能夠喜歡吃所以這個有賴於我們這個專法看看能不能有什麼方式結合各項這個食材的供應以及飲食的調配"},{"start":10633.251,"end":10633.291,"text":"主席"},{"start":10643.342,"end":10671.256,"text":"家長及政府能夠負擔的費用 讓它極大化也可以採用地方的食材 或者是我們學校有一些不同的午餐供應方式我想讓這個午餐能夠再低化 也能夠讓學校具體的實施在這邊再次感謝大家的關心"},{"start":10672.756,"end":10673.176,"text":"蕭東元理事長請準備"},{"start":10701.138,"end":10720.742,"text":"主席,各位與會的夥伴大家好我是大想食育協會的秘書長,我是黃嘉玲謝謝剛才有幾位前輩還有特別是相番員委員已經把我們的照片或是我們倡議的主題放上來了大想食育協會2016年我們籌備2018年正式的成立在這個內政部正式立案通過如果我不謙虛的說"},{"start":10723.843,"end":10743.715,"text":"臺灣或是華文世界或是全世界吃過最多臺灣日本韓國學校午餐並且造訪他們學校並且把所有的資訊揭露公開的我們的這個團體應該就是大小食育協會剛才也提到說第一步推到立法院的民間團體發起的學校公餐法的版本也是"},{"start":10744.535,"end":10750.977,"text":"1954年1981年日本和韓國的學校給食法在這個部分也是大小首次提出來並且1981年的韓國提出來的學校給食法他們歷經了11次的學校給食法的修正他們最新的版本是2021年3月23號所提出來的那個版本的翻譯"},{"start":10771.482,"end":10787.387,"text":"大家猜猜看是誰呢?噢當然跑不例外是大小食慾協會為大家翻譯出來所有的資料就請大家我們所有的資料都秉持著希望能夠資訊公開透明讓更多人一起參與的這樣的精神不管是這個所有相關Stay Holder所以我們都放在大小食慾協會的官網"},{"start":10788.427,"end":10789.208,"text":"為何要做這件事情﹖因為我們看到"},{"start":10811.441,"end":10830.926,"text":"落後日本和韓國這麼多年其實不是只是數字而已在很多的資料上剛才前輩也提到我們的孩子們的健康影響營養還有呢影響到下一代的這個表現呢事實上是非常多元的甚至這個社會啊永續啊環境啊這個我就不一一的細數了那先講結論大小食育協會認為我們目前的學校公餐法制化應該要含跨的學生是從幼兒園到高中職這件事情是可以參考的"},{"start":10840.848,"end":10841.449,"text":"韓國和日本有一個特殊的設置"},{"start":10856.57,"end":10884.32,"text":"經過國家考試認證的公職營養師之外學校營養師之外韓國和日本同時有營養教師就是這個營養師同時具有營養師的身份並且是可以在學校合法的教授教學這樣的身份叫營養教師韓國和日本有這麼多那麼在這方面的調查呢我再給大家看一個數字當然我們剛剛在這邊討論說到底要多少班多少人設置一個營養師那我們直接來看韓國和日本值得參考的數字韓國目前的學生是"},{"start":10887.501,"end":10913.492,"text":"534.6萬人日本現在的學生人數大概是900萬人而台灣的話應該之前的數字是178萬人大概就是國中小生應該越來越少了那麼台灣的營養教師現在到底有多少人呢待會麻煩我們的這個主管單位來跟我們說一下我們自己抓大概是600人不太很確定因為我們找不到公開的資料那麼韓國和日本我們可以看到他們的公開資料是韓國營養教師和營養職員就是他們具有營養師身份的人是"},{"start":10914.557,"end":10937.829,"text":"一萬零九百三十二位日本對應九百萬的學生有一萬一千三百五十九位營養師或是營養教師條理人員就是剛剛說的除工包含廚師或是條理員韓國也很清楚的告訴我們他們一共有六萬一千九百四十四位"},{"start":10938.729,"end":10956.021,"text":"日本沒有找到這樣的數字但是按照他們的法律相關的規定不管是中央還是地方大概不可以超過一個人的負擔不可以超過100餐這個數字是很清楚的也在很多的公開資訊上面都有因此在我們大廠的版本當中認為"},{"start":10957.242,"end":10957.462,"text":"一位營養師："},{"start":10975.61,"end":10996.251,"text":"關於學校午餐修法的部分我剛很贊成一位先進所說的雖然大老師一直在創立法制化但是我們拿到最近的幾個版本我們在今年的二月的時候曾經參加過一個諮詢會議但是從來都沒有看到相關諮詢會議以及剛才我們看到這個資料當中教育部提供的資料當中說還有開了好幾次其他的會議"},{"start":10996.792,"end":11011.862,"text":"通通都沒有看到現場大家參加發言的會議記錄所以根據政府資訊公開我們也蠻遲疑說這個諮詢都是後來結果到哪裡去我們也沒有看到新的版本但是我們猜想這個版本上面大家討論來討論去大腸食育協會認為一位營養師並且這個營養師我們要設置營養教師這樣子的資料"},{"start":11018.786,"end":11021.869,"text":"大家可能會問那所以如果說你要把營養師變成營養教師是不是要去修教師法等等那我可以跟各位報告韓國和日本也不是一開始1954年就有所謂的營養教師他們也是歷經了內部非常多的討論"},{"start":11034.239,"end":11061.572,"text":"這樣的討論在其他國家是可以供我們參考的就是韓國和日本那韓國和日本要怎麼去參考呢我們就剛才內幕委員說的如果我們現在先求友再求好己就這樣推出來了一個學校公餐法或是學校午餐專法的這個版本可是它事實上韓國的內容是各方妥協的結果的話我們認為岐其不可那中間需要很多的討論和修訂譬如說利害相關人要參與制定法律還有施行細則配套的做法"},{"start":11062.012,"end":11077.237,"text":"這些細緻的討論需要很多人的參與目前還沒有看到我們相關主管單位在這個部分提出更細緻的做法這個是大想食育協會我們提出來認為學校午餐法制化當中很重要的一點 謝謝好 謝謝我們的黃嘉琳秘書長接下來我們請蕭東元理事長然後最後我們是請陳明信全聯會的會長 謝謝"},{"start":11091.243,"end":11114.538,"text":"我們柯主席 各位委員 各位關心營養午餐的教育先進 大家午安 大家好就午餐 營養午餐部分 我今天會想要以人我們剛剛大概講到就是人跟錢 要人有錢那我想要以人這個角度來切入 來談這個專法"},{"start":11117.5,"end":11117.8,"text":"午餐秘書專職專責"},{"start":11139.899,"end":11158.728,"text":"校安事件 新北校安事件發生的時候校安人員也要增加也要專人那談到營養午餐法 營養秘書也要專人午餐秘書也要專人那當然這個部分有很多需要去克服的地方那我也建議教育部就利用這一次算是"},{"start":11160.168,"end":11187.566,"text":"民氣可用大家有共識要推這個專法的這個版本的時候可以把這個部分順理的把它變成一個午餐秘書變成一個專任的部分然後第二個部分剛剛也談很多就營養師的部分那大家也有談到從40班減到20班一個人或者是500個學生一個營養師我覺得這都可以討論那大家應該也有同樣有共識有方向就是"},{"start":11188.386,"end":11188.646,"text":"提高營養師編制"},{"start":11212.343,"end":11223.954,"text":"第三個部分的話就談到剛剛也談到很多的除工的部分那我們當然在職稱上是不是改成職務專員或是廚師我想這個都可以討論的方向"},{"start":11226.041,"end":11242.499,"text":"除工的工作量,其實我自己的二姊她也是學校除工退休的她都多我一歲,但是她已經退休三四年了我記得她五十一歲我都退休,其實是撐壯年的時候但是因為他們常常要提很重的那個餐筒"},{"start":11243.32,"end":11243.36,"text":"主席"},{"start":11260.134,"end":11260.154,"text":"團善規劃"},{"start":11283.067,"end":11310.827,"text":"那再來提到家長的部分剛剛我們也有很多人提到這個部分希望有家長的參與還有監督那家長參與監督的部分我想有好幾個版本的那個草案我們法條的草案裡面都有包括中央要設置公餐或是食慾委員會或是輔導會那地方政府要有地方政府的公餐委員會那學校校內校內的公餐委員會那這邊我特別建議就是"},{"start":11311.607,"end":11327.363,"text":"在不同層級應該也要有不同的家長來參與比如說如果是學校內的公參委員會那應該就有學校家長會的代表參加那如果是地方政府的公參委員會那就應該有縣市層級的家長團體代表參加"},{"start":11330.567,"end":11331.308,"text":"中央全國級家長團體代表參加"},{"start":11345.003,"end":11361.214,"text":"學生的部分有很多的食農教育然後飲食教育、飲食健康教育、食食教育那這個部分我覺得是不是應該也要加強在家長這部分家庭教育的部分其實孩子我們剛剛也有我們那個葉主任提到"},{"start":11362.054,"end":11384.694,"text":"有四分之三時間其實是在家裡用餐在學校用餐可能大概四分之一而已那這四分之三在學校在家裡用餐是不是讓家長知道應該怎麼樣讓孩子一樣可以吃得好吃的吃得健康所以在家長餐飲部分我覺得家長的專業是需要提升那最後一個部分當然就是最重要的就是學生我們學生的部分大家一直在談"},{"start":11386.455,"end":11406.372,"text":"讓學生吃的好吃的飽,吃的健康對象的部分,我們剛剛也有蠻大的共識應該把幼兒到高中全部都納進專法的管理範圍裡面我想這個也是很高的共識全加盟也支持把這四個學段都納進來在學生的部分"},{"start":11411.016,"end":11411.276,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11429.761,"end":11430.081,"text":"全家網報告"},{"start":11458.855,"end":11459.035,"text":"陳銘信全聯會會長"},{"start":11470.33,"end":11494.442,"text":"主席與會的各位先進及專家學者及各部會的官員大家午安首先其實我是比較後面發言但是我要非常感謝其實相當多的團體其實都非常支持午餐學校午餐尤其在這一屆的立法委員很多委員其實都把它列為要通過的優先法案首先其實學校營養午餐其實被給予很多的期待就剛剛"},{"start":11495.282,"end":11499.008,"text":"學生在學校用餐大概是差一個月裡面的三分之一的時間大家給了那麼多期待但是給了多少資源"},{"start":11510.524,"end":11516.931,"text":"教育部 農業部 產業工會的互動相當多學校午餐雖然還有很多進步空間 但其實做了很多很多首先介紹全國聯合會的部分全國聯合會由14個地方工會組成每天生產的營養午餐"},{"start":11533.464,"end":11552.551,"text":"覆蓋全國200萬包括師生200萬人我們大概覆蓋了大概160萬餐包含了公辦公營的食材大概10%公辦民營的這個所謂的勞務委外大概是31.7%跟民辦民營所謂的剛剛的外定統戰的部分有38.2%所以我們是一個非常具有代表性的一個工會"},{"start":11554.602,"end":11569.18,"text":"但這兩年疫情這40年來其實學校午餐經由團團業者協助供應但是長期的價格不合理也導致很多的業者紛紛的退場尤其是在這兩年的疫情其實更多的業者因為經營不下去而退場"},{"start":11572.694,"end":11595.851,"text":"其實這幾年剛才提到我們在跟農業部跟教育部其實是努力在把關學校的午餐的一個食安從106年開始我們協助了這個所謂的國產食材進入校園由這個中央來支持3.5元的這個這個差額的補助到現在10塊錢其實這部分讓整個學校的這個使用國產食材的涵蓋率大幅的提升目前提升的數字是98.7這個數字98.1才是舊的數字喔"},{"start":11600.319,"end":11600.359,"text":"《編鄉公餐問題》"},{"start":11615.993,"end":11632.468,"text":"整個做法是利益良善那如何做得更好我覺得這個部分其實可以找產業溝通因為其實我們知道現在很多廚房建築師設計很漂亮的建築物但是實際供應生產的廚房這是專業的所以如何把業者的意見納進來其實這個是很重要的當然我們也協助了所謂的農業部去推廣很多的農產品把它進入校園比如說鳳梨跟前幾年很有名的斑斑石斑等等"},{"start":11643.581,"end":11665.183,"text":"其實學校午餐目前三個樣態公辦公營公辦民營跟民辦民營其實我覺得在這個專法這套專法裡我的論述是它是缺一不可的全面學校自設廚房學日本學韓國韓國跟日本絕對有它的優點但是在台灣全面自設廚房絕對是個災難因為你根本請不到人"},{"start":11666.949,"end":11695.576,"text":"團生業者 像我的廚房的廚師 起薪4萬勒 到6萬塊不等學校那個署長常常跟我講說 明星 奇怪我們補助了還是請不到廚工 還是請不到營養師因為薪水太低 因為你搶不過所謂的民間的業者像我要請營養師 我還要跟健檢中心 醫美中心 生技公司去搶營養師喔所以其實營養師其實也不好請"},{"start":11696.816,"end":11717.92,"text":"我的太太本身是營養師所以我絕對贊成營養師要增額而且要把原額給補足這部分我要在這裡再次說明那民辦民營的廚房的好處在於說如果說像這幾年有很多公辦公營的廚房發生疑似失重或者停點失火其實都是由民辦民營的廚房去做緊急的供應所以這部分其實是缺一不可的"},{"start":11721.801,"end":11742.502,"text":"很多部會都來參與這次的公聽會所以學校午餐其實有很多人都在關心像比如說衛福部、教育部、環境部等等很多人都在關心這個區塊所以這個產業其實一直在進步中那也一直在大家的督促在進步中所以其實是需要有更多的鼓勵"},{"start":11744.488,"end":11773.732,"text":"所以這幾年其實我們也做了很多的這個不斷的精進像剛剛我們的那個主廚周惠敏有提到我們在這三年出了三本書也辦了很多場縣市的廚師的這個教學跟公聽會跟所謂的座談會希望在學校廚房的廚師他可以去做精進而且我們出的食譜都是否校園午餐的大型鍋具的食譜因為坊間的食譜相當多這個架上可能上百本都有但是唯一去否學校午餐的其實真的只有這三本"},{"start":11776.015,"end":11788.907,"text":"我要提的 剛剛有很多教師產業工會的理事長有提到學校是教學的地方 應該 半餐應該讓專業的來我贊成偏鄉設廚房 但都會區應該是輔導業者應該輔導業者來協助午餐的供應 因為現在就這樣做"},{"start":11795.615,"end":11822.018,"text":"其實我們這幾年也去韓國去做考察其實韓國在整個的午餐的費用我跟大家報告在食材就高達一百塊台幣人力成本在高達一百塊台幣所以他一餐的成本製作午餐的成本是高達兩百塊以上所以這部分其實是我們可以再努力的地方那這幾在今年我們也成立了這個團餐廚師委員會跟營養師團餐委員會跟學校食材工藝的委員會也希望說學校午餐能更好"},{"start":11823.683,"end":11840.977,"text":"這邊我提了一個新的觀點學校午餐其實跟公立幼兒園其實有點像它的顧客也一樣所以我們希望說在專法裡面去把公辦公營跟公辦民營跟民辦民營的部分都把它拉進來讓學校午餐在整個在一個進步下更全面化這部分我兩個建議一個建議是剛剛有很多高中的部分應該要納入專法也納入三張AQ的範疇"},{"start":11849.807,"end":11849.847,"text":"陳銘信全聯會會長"},{"start":11876.856,"end":11878.937,"text":"臺灣民眾黨提出的版本其實也在今天看到立法院總共有12個版本"},{"start":11896.101,"end":11917.477,"text":"其實12個版本裏面大家都希望盡快的來推所謂的學校午餐的專法而這個專法從我們在推動的過程裏面其實非常的遺憾從108年其實教育部就已經開始推這個專法而且公告也開過多次的公聽會108年到現在整整快6年這6年的時間"},{"start":11923.393,"end":11947.675,"text":"他給我們的回覆是他們一直在研議研議了6年還沒有辦法研議出一個版本但是看起來立法委員還有民間團體都有各自的版本這才是我們今天這個這個制度到現在沒有辦法完全建立我就是不知道到底問題出在哪裡所以不管是民間學校老師家長"},{"start":11948.456,"end":11948.697,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11963.832,"end":11982.979,"text":"具體的剛剛聽到理事長說因為在台北市我們在台北市曾經執政所以台北市跟其他的城鄉有很大的差距台北市可以吃到有機菜吃到有機米但是有非常多的鄉鎮也好或者是非六度的城市它其實有很大的限制"},{"start":11983.439,"end":12009.405,"text":"所以對於預算來源還有所謂午餐價格的級距以及相關的補助經費都應該有一個比較明確的方案那也不會讓地方政府變成是他自己想辦法自己看狀況自己碰運氣那更重要的是我們午餐他如果能夠跟農業尤其是我們的中南部包括農委會這邊能夠一起合作台北市就是用"},{"start":12010.405,"end":12037.316,"text":"午餐的方式來跟所謂的有機菜的業者來做契作他其實也同時的推動我們有機農業的發展也就是說午餐不單單只是午餐他除了還可以跟農業合作跟未來的這些淨零碳排 減能減碳來配合政策之外其實更重要的還有孩子的健康跟營養所以對於目前現在的現行的狀況"},{"start":12039.178,"end":12040.739,"text":"公聽會：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":12067.293,"end":12067.593,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":12085.131,"end":12100.089,"text":"每天大家都在省錢有幾十塊 有一百塊 有八十塊 有六十塊甚至中南部可能有三四十塊的午餐這才是台灣最大的問題所以我們希望第一個我們希望能夠正視事實上這就是一個需求第二個"},{"start":12100.569,"end":12100.829,"text":"主席"},{"start":12116.869,"end":12117.029,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12134.386,"end":12136.607,"text":"公聽會上各界的意見 重複性都很高了這些團體在我們2月22號的公聽會都來過 都講過"},{"start":12163.039,"end":12180.815,"text":"這些問題我相信教育部也聽過只是他們從來沒有認真的把它放在自己未來修法的內容裡面研議了6年了不要再等了所以我們希望新政府在下禮拜即將要上任新的政府我們希望新的部長還有新的院長"},{"start":12181.696,"end":12208.393,"text":"把午餐專法當成他第一優先應該要來重視的問題那另外就是在立法院的教育文化委員會我也非常感謝召委今天召開這樣的公聽會其實大家的聲音都很響亮不管是包括家長教師以及業者沒有人想要把午餐挫插也沒有人想要讓孩子吃不好只是怎麼樣讓孩子吃得好制度健全老師責任"},{"start":12210.094,"end":12210.154,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12232.566,"end":12233.106,"text":"李坤澄委員"},{"start":12259.163,"end":12281.873,"text":"謝謝主席安排今天這個公聽會現在已經快12點在座也很多的專家團體還有包含學校的人員大家都很辛苦了一個早上都在這邊這個時刻我們的孩子們可能等一下要吃營養午餐了但是他們的營養午餐可能9點多就已經煮好了所以送到學校的時候大概孩子們在"},{"start":12283.974,"end":12312.224,"text":"在運送過程當中 現在是夏天還好喔那如果到冬天的時候 有時候你到這個時候你送到學校去那其實在孩子們 他們在吃這個營養午餐的時候其實他不是吃熱騰騰的 等於是吃溫的我不敢說是冷的 但是他可能是溫的那對於這個孩子們來講 這個如果在在冬天的這個學校裡面吃到的是這個溫的 不是熱的的這個營養午餐 其實家長其實都會蠻在意的"},{"start":12313.392,"end":12332.983,"text":"我自己是來自新北市過去在新北市曾經有發生過營養午餐的一些弊端後來我們有加以調整讓營養午餐不論在經費的來源或是在監督這方面都讓它更加透明化"},{"start":12334.163,"end":12344.794,"text":"新北市很大 它有城鄉差距所以我們也都鼓勵 現在也持續在做盡量利用學校的閒置空間 它能夠來做自立廚房我們自己的選區 三重其實現在也正在做"},{"start":12352.722,"end":12378.419,"text":"資歷廚房能夠提供學生熱騰騰的午餐我相信是新北市或許其他的縣市也都有陸陸續續在做這是一個方式另外一個方式就是在我們跟團善業者的溝通當然團善業者就成本的考量就是說你現在每個孩子每個家長願意付出多少的營養午餐的費用我覺得也"},{"start":12381.089,"end":12381.229,"text":"主席"},{"start":12404.62,"end":12432.556,"text":"苦的是我們自己的孩子所以在營養午餐這部分我覺得很多面向都需要來做討論當然最重要的就是說是不是要有一個學校營養午餐的專法學校午餐的法制化我當然認為是有必要今天公聽會開下去之後我也希望說因為我看只有我們立法委員的版本沒有教育部的版本我是希望說"},{"start":12433.917,"end":12457.478,"text":"不管教育部有沒有這版本至少我們這麼多立委所提出來的版本我們就是公聽會結束之後就開始要行動因為這個會期如果撇開一些爭議性的一些對立性的一些法案其實像這種學校的午餐法這個是相當重要我相信這應該是更多家長"},{"start":12458.859,"end":12479.907,"text":"應該要來重視也應該更來支持的那過去為什麼說要提就是要有這一個專法因為過去我們營養午餐我說過第一個就是每個地方不一樣有城鄉的差距那所以呢每個縣市在做的時候也會造成這一個一國多治光是一個台灣22個縣市可能每個縣市的做法都不一樣"},{"start":12480.467,"end":12505.916,"text":"當然現在學校大部分都是用這個教育局的教育局來做處理但是呢 這個教育局在處理的部分這個它可能就是一個科來做處理那所以說變成它的這個權限它比較低那你如果說要來讓這個孩子們的這個午餐吃得更好的話那當然你成績要拉高那你成績要拉高的話你至少在中央的這一部分如果有個專法來做處理的話"},{"start":12506.636,"end":12506.796,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12523.612,"end":12549.591,"text":"運輸．費用的訂定．公餐模式的不一樣．團善的．自立廚房的．等等之類的．都會影響到整個午餐的品質．所以說我們是希望也要求．教育部要來通過學校的午餐專法．積極來整合各部會的職責．讓我們的孩子們不是只有吃得飽．"},{"start":12550.612,"end":12550.933,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12571.909,"end":12600.449,"text":"我們要補足校園的專業能力我剛剛有聽到一位是差腳國小的老師嗎?因為他的工作非常繁重那如果我們有一個專業的一個這個午餐秘書的話那我相信像他這種例子會越來越多那這個因為他是待課老師所以他的工作就會非常多所以我認為說要有專責的這個午餐的這個秘書這是相當的一個重要"},{"start":12601.269,"end":12603.87,"text":"確保學校營養午餐經費使用透明化鼓勵學校設置自立廚房 縮短食物運送及保存時間 減少食安風險"},{"start":12617.296,"end":12642.226,"text":"所以說 這個要補人這個健全學校 這個午餐從業人員的人力我剛才說過這一個 這個午餐秘書要有專任的那第二個補專業 這個要強化營養師的人數那建置營養教師的這個系統然後最後的這個營養午餐 不只讓學生吃而已我們希望它成為這一個 我們食安教育 食能教育的一環那以上這個做個說明 謝謝"},{"start":12643.615,"end":12645.619,"text":"請教育部統一為今天的公聽會做一個最後的一個這個回覆跟總結謝謝"},{"start":12658.211,"end":12684.831,"text":"感謝趙委安排這個議題討論我們小朋友的營養健康那這也是我長期關注的目前台灣現行法條或命令處理小朋友營養午餐包含有學生衛生法跟中央補助地方政府學校的午餐經費支用要點跟直轄縣市政府跟所屬國民小教育及國民中小學的辦理學校午餐因行注意事項等"},{"start":12686.332,"end":12712.898,"text":"但目前我們看到孩子吃的問題22個縣市就有22種做法所以我們勢必要有一個統一的專法來規範會是比較恰當的首先透過這一張圖表就可以看到六都不同調 校校都有差異最上層的紅色標示可以看到已經有分設立學校廚房跟"},{"start":12714.127,"end":12718.47,"text":"外定餐盒團散是否符合國建署要求難有待調查"},{"start":12731.278,"end":12732.238,"text":"立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":12761.267,"end":12761.447,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12782.291,"end":12808.784,"text":"教育部也正在修正草案不過我們還是請行政部門要加快速度因為在修正草案前一定要正視幾個問題第一個我們的營養午餐百百種就樣態非常的多有自建廚房多校共用廚房有團散業者協助的那目前普及率達九成可是每一個縣市做法不一樣未來我希望也要有統一的做法那透過學校這樣子的一個營養午餐的標準那"},{"start":12812.326,"end":12831.562,"text":"我們可以看到每天的廚餘量都非常的大量表示我們孩子吃不飽可是為什麼廚餘量又這麼的多這是非常吊詭的狀況簡單來說的話那就是不好吃可是也是吃不飽所以因此未來立法的時候應該著重在檢討我們的營養標準如何跟口味與時俱進來做"},{"start":12836.165,"end":12836.225,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12861.463,"end":12888.989,"text":"養師一個營養師他可能要跑五到七間的學校根本沒有辦法全面照顧那他的負擔這麼的高未來營養師的分配也應該要入法不應該是讓有能力的有專業能力的反而沒辦法顧及到全面性這樣才能真正落實小朋友的吃的健康還有我們的午餐秘書那剛剛陳儒昆城委員提的如果我們的午餐秘書他"},{"start":12890.409,"end":12891.109,"text":"實材除了人力預算"},{"start":12920.742,"end":12923.644,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":12945.618,"end":12945.798,"text":"：立法院第11會議"},{"start":12969.878,"end":12997.837,"text":"所以專法的這個方向目標我們大概就是會期待是不是在整個的分配預算裡邊應該要減少成鄉差異做法要一致那大概更期待的是我們的營養午餐的行政秘書的工作簡化還有營養師的配置要合理降低負擔還有應該要研議是否設置我們的食品安全的技師的認證的機制食材要選用透明運輸合格"},{"start":12998.257,"end":12999.378,"text":"請教育部林正次代表回應"},{"start":13029.362,"end":13034.843,"text":"謝謝主席 聆聽27位委員 學者專家還有業者的建言在這個公聽會是我聽過最豐盛的意見的一個場合那也謝謝各位提供我們很多的卓見那有關於高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例相關的草案您一定正在科證進行中"},{"start":13058.148,"end":13067.718,"text":"這個法案會包含各位所建議的建言的內容,包含對於學校午餐供應的相關的安全規範,品質規範,收費機制,專職專業專人相關的設計"},{"start":13079.332,"end":13103.906,"text":"都會含納在內當然也包含營養教育 食農教育 飲食教育 洗食教育 配合課綱課程一起推動當然對於學校相關的廚房 飲食場所的衛生管理也會含納在裡面對於相關的菜單設計 食材的登錄公開 以讓家長能夠安心放心"},{"start":13104.887,"end":13121.252,"text":"對於相關的專業廠商．外定餐盒業者．也會含納在裡頭．一起來協助推動學校午餐對於學校的午餐的帳戶管理．相關的透明化．也會在法案裡面設計對於辦理學校午餐．優良的學校人員．也會實施相關的講助．獎勵"},{"start":13131.574,"end":13149.004,"text":"對於後續的資源的投入﹐有關於弱勢學生的照顧﹐偏鄉學校的廚房的建置﹐我們會努力的進行﹐以上就法案的相關的朝你的方向﹐跟主席﹐跟各位專家學者一起來努力﹐謝謝"},{"start":13151.038,"end":13167.89,"text":"所以說林鄭次到目前為止我們所關切的目前大家都已經是提到這個行政院可不可以告訴我們大約大概什麼時候目前行政院對於這部專法已經進行到什麼樣的程度已經通過第一次所以說預估什麼時候會送進大院來那一點是怎麼樣那一點是六年還是六十天目前都沒有辦法回應"},{"start":13181.368,"end":13182.088,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":13202.81,"end":13213.603,"text":"各位我們聽到了所以我期待在我們這一次的這個第一會期當中在新會期當中這部專法就有可能送到我們大院來做一個討論對大家所關切的問題應該都可以透過我們逐條的審查"},{"start":13218.849,"end":13218.949,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":13239.196,"end":13242.239,"text":"委員會應該在公聽會終結後10日內依照出席者所提供的正反意見提出公聽會的報告送加本月全體委員還有出席者"},{"start":13254.83,"end":13270.363,"text":"第59條規定公聽會的報告作為審查該特定議案之參考我們會把各位的發言意見還有所有的書面資料 綜合歸納會編成冊 送交本院全體委員還有所有的出席的與會的貴賓我們"},{"start":13272.725,"end":13272.845,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13289.961,"end":13291.242,"text":"今天再次的感謝各位今天的參與謝謝各位 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謝謝卵次長的報告現在我們開始進行詢答先做以下宣告每位初期委員發言時間為6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位夜期委員發言時間為5分鐘必要時得延長不能延長這次不延長"},{"start":2236.664,"end":2255.752,"text":"另外今日上午10點截止發言登記本日會議委員若有相關修正動議請盡送主席台以方便議事人員整理現在依照登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員諮詢"},{"start":2273.95,"end":2297.263,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是請阮市長有請阮市長委員早市長早市長我請教因為520之後我想你們部長繼續留任那媒體有報導說財政部接下來要面臨的政策"},{"start":2298.234,"end":2317.619,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2318.223,"end":2324.287,"text":"在本委員會也充分討論過那我請問次長新內閣新氣象那你對這兩個跨部會稅制的問題到底那個次長你有什麼看法"},{"start":2331.738,"end":2344.914,"text":"報告委員關於這個當沖降稅或者是金融業稅降稅的問題都到今年年底就要屆滿那這一部分我們一直都有跟金管會來保持來聯絡交換意見那有關這個當沖降稅這一部分"},{"start":2351.301,"end":2370.481,"text":"當然在這一部分我們大家知道股市當然需要有一些短期的交易也有一些長期交易所以如果是全部都長期交易那麼大概股市也沒辦法活絡所以也就是說短期交易它有這個造勢的功能但是我們這個要造勢"},{"start":2375.466,"end":2398.351,"text":"這個要促進這個股市的發展是不是要透過租稅的減免也就是目前的當中降稅那你認為是要維持現狀還是要配合跨部會的意見來改變現狀這個我們會跟金管會充分的溝通意見對啊那其實這個部會已經探討很久了啦"},{"start":2399.298,"end":2421.972,"text":"副長,就以金融營業稅來看,去年10月份媒體報導金融營業稅調降時開放的態度會參考金管會建議降到2%的意見來進行評估但是一直到最近財政部還是認為除了參考金管會的意見外還要看國內"},{"start":2423.453,"end":2450.069,"text":"整個金融產業發展的情形那國際金融市場風險與挑戰整個政府整體政策以及財政狀況等來做審慎的評估那我請問次長因為你們那個部長也是這個軍管會的委員之一以往整個金融營業稅調降的議題是不是軍管會"},{"start":2452.214,"end":2458.322,"text":"這個委員會議中有經過很多次的討論那次長你認為是不是"},{"start":2460.078,"end":2464.76,"text":"這個多半是反對的意見還是保留意見?您的看法呢?那我請問這個"},{"start":2490.711,"end":2512.726,"text":"當沖降稅修法二度延長後今年12月31日到期那券商工會爭取就是要常態化但是金管會認為說常態化不太可能啦因此這個黃主委黃天牧表示會向財政部建議再展延五年那當沖降稅從105年開始實施到現在那請問次長持續實施或取消實施"},{"start":2520.995,"end":2524.67,"text":"你認為對股市投資人到底有什麼好處跟壞處?"},{"start":2526.871,"end":2554.57,"text":"這個還要再評估啦還要評估啊,評估到12節也評估因為當沖降稅其實也會助長的助諜啦雖然他有造勢的功夫,但是也會助長的助諜所以這一部分我們會收集國際的其他國家的做法也會參考金管會的意見,也會參考業者的意見那你們有沒有跟金管會討論過啊對,所以這個案子我們會在近期內應該會做決策啦因為在年底就到期了嘛"},{"start":2555.01,"end":2582.637,"text":"對阿我們要做決策那你認為在什麼的條件下這個可以取消當沖降稅對股市投資人衝擊相對小那如果沒有的話那為什麼要降稅有必要一言再言你的看法當然過去有他的歷史因素因為過去的股市的成交量都比較小嘛因為你既然一言再言那不如讓他常態化反過來說如果要考慮取消為何這個"},{"start":2585.223,"end":2607.862,"text":"這個還是遲遲的不敢取消對因為最主要是兩個問題啦我剛才就講說能不能常態化的問題那當然就是我們這個可能就違反到這個這個就納稅納稅保護法的權益保護法的問題因為你一言再言嘛而且你也不敢就說那不然以後就常態化你也不敢然後這個"},{"start":2609.443,"end":2622.869,"text":"就懸在那裡然後就看整個局勢怎麼樣然後你就說這個是當中對稅收有幫助有短期有長期我們都知道這個股市是經濟的櫥窗是沒錯"},{"start":2625.73,"end":2641.599,"text":"當然我們是希望經濟好但是畢竟那時候是短暫性結果變成有點常態性因為一言再言嘛 對不對從105年到現在113也8年了 對不對到年底你們也不敢確定啊那個次長"},{"start":2643.13,"end":2657.958,"text":"我再問另外一個議題四月下旬台積電法說會後股市重挫讓外界擔心經濟成長率是否會下修當時你們部長說基本上對未來不用那麼悲觀"},{"start":2661.061,"end":2682.419,"text":"現在經過20多天台股大盤檢驗後也算是證實了你們部長的看法但是台股重挫後緩談將近差不多2000點是不是能夠完全代表景氣全面復甦本席認為依照近年這些年的經驗似乎股市是經濟的組裝的象徵多半"},{"start":2683.16,"end":2707.052,"text":"都有一定的機率發生對門上烏雲以導致無法正確預測判斷經濟成長的整個趨勢那我請問次長財政部從進出口的統計狀況你認為近期台股上漲的反應是經濟成長的先行指標還是落後補漲的形態您的看法呢"},{"start":2707.712,"end":2723.668,"text":"我跟委員報告,股市它受到的因素,受到影響的因素有很多包括像國內的景氣或者是投資人信心或者是國際資金的移動或者是政經情勢的因素也受到最近ETF的這些募集的影響"},{"start":2728.132,"end":2743.553,"text":"所以他的他有時候就是他跟這個經濟成長是脫鉤的因為經濟成長他有他的基本的計算的公式基本上包括消費包括投資包括政府的支出還包括就是這個出口跟進口"},{"start":2744.394,"end":2766.749,"text":"這樣齁?"},{"start":2767.089,"end":2790.526,"text":"市長,為了搶救中產階級,準總統賴清德喊出擴大社會投資並以北歐丹麥作為取經的一個對象,號稱要建立全民社會的一個新支持的體系。我請問市長,如果台灣要接軌北歐,取經北歐的整個社會投資,"},{"start":2791.977,"end":2801.524,"text":"那你認為台灣的整個租稅政策租稅負擔率到底有沒有調整的可能?高福利國家高稅率高福利的國家"},{"start":2807.528,"end":2817.239,"text":"每一個國家的國境都不一樣,我們目前的租稅負擔率到去年是達到14.7那以過去這幾年來看大概12%到14之間,去年因為稅收特別好所以會拉上到14.7%"},{"start":2826.428,"end":2855.557,"text":"那我想就是說這個有時候就是租稅負擔率跟我們的財政的穩健其實可以分開來講其實我們的租稅負擔率目前是只有14.7所以說沒有辦法跟上北歐嗎沒有辦法跟上北歐因為他們高稅率不高福利啊對我覺得這個是不同的制度對所以說像這個如果要是沒有那麼就是政策的畫大餅嘛你等於是騙全民嘛對不對不可能的事啊"},{"start":2856.437,"end":2875.747,"text":"對不對是不是這樣子對我是覺得每個國家的國境都不一樣啦對啊我是覺得我們有我們的做法所以我剛才講說雖然我們的租稅負擔力雖然是14只有14.7只有比新加坡要高但是但是呢我們的財政狀況其實還是往好的方向走"},{"start":2876.387,"end":2886.795,"text":"對啦因為本席以為台灣整個貧富差距極端化稅制改革沒有辦法有效到位應該要具備相當比例的責任承擔"},{"start":2889.417,"end":2905.555,"text":"只是要絕對公平還是要相對公平又或者是客觀公平似乎很不容易做到那個次長稅制改革如果不有效朝公平的方向來推動那我請問大多數老百姓"},{"start":2906.616,"end":2921.407,"text":"是不是都要持續在生活每天窮忙而且每個月收支入不敷出啊那每年等待政府的補貼一輩子這樣吃不飽餓不死這種生活的環境您的看法呢?"},{"start":2922.107,"end":2943.119,"text":"我是覺得像這個問題我覺得因為目前的經濟發展就是朝高科技化或者是資本化或者是數位經濟的方向走所以在所得的分配一定會不公平對啊因為落差很大全球都是有這種狀況所以我們的做法很簡單第一個就是對高所得者課高的稅"},{"start":2951.224,"end":2977.792,"text":"那麼對於中低所得者我們盡量減免他的這個稅負比如說我們的這個有關提高有關相關的扣除額那對於低所得者我們就要提供透過這個移軟支付的方式來促進這個我們整個社會的一個財富分配的一個平衡好謝謝那其他下次再問謝謝好謝謝林德博委員質詢接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢"},{"start":2989.383,"end":2996.795,"text":"主席各位立席官員大家早主席我想請財政部阮政次有請阮市長委員早市長早"},{"start":3007.105,"end":3025.99,"text":"翌週一就是5月20日目前我們新的那個名單也都確定了只有我們財政部的莊部長是留任的部長我想其他都是新任或者是職務調動的部分"},{"start":3028.251,"end":3052.364,"text":"我們部長現在去參加總辭所以由次長來接受備詢我想要本席的建議要提醒財政部就是作為全部留任的部會財政部的業務還有推動新的法案稅制的改革要更加積極請教次長是不是做得到這個我們會盡量來做會不會戰戰兢兢"},{"start":3057.881,"end":3062.267,"text":"前一段時間部長請假去參加了亞洲開發銀行的理事會年會以及中美洲銀行的理事會年會"},{"start":3076.685,"end":3096.473,"text":"那針對台灣參與國際多邊開發銀行相關議題交換意見深化我國跟其他會員國的交流那我要請教說部長回國之後有沒有跟次長還有跟各位官員來分享這個他出國參加這些會員國的會議的一個心得"},{"start":3101.395,"end":3121.304,"text":"昨天才回國還沒有機會跟他深入去聊如果委員要請教他這一次有關的相關心得可能要莊部長親自的回答不過據我了解莊部長這一次親自出席的我們就是亞銀跟中美洲銀行這表示我們對這兩個組織的重視"},{"start":3124.685,"end":3151.234,"text":"那麼對於這個有關ADB也就是亞洲銀行這一部分我們到那邊去當然我們也發表聲明就是支持這個比如說這個應應期貨變遷的措施表達支持這個亞洲銀行開發基金協助亞太地區貧窮或者是脆弱的國家另外也認同這個ADB推動性別平等等等這一方面的這個聲明"},{"start":3152.634,"end":3174.493,"text":"另外我覺得我們在ATB有一個很重要的任務就是因為ATB他善改我們的名稱所以我們每一次開會的時候我們都在那邊都會表達抗議希望ATB還有所有會員國能夠用公平或平等的態度來對待我們台灣這是很重要一點"},{"start":3175.254,"end":3197.945,"text":"另外我覺得我們這一次到ADB去我們除了見了總裁之外也跟其他高階的一些包括副總裁其他的相關的一些高階的官員那麼做雙邊的一些這個交流跟這個會談那也提出相關的建議比如說ADB他的招標案"},{"start":3198.405,"end":3216.031,"text":"他其實是採取最低標所以他常常我們聽到友邦的一些反應就是說他因為最低標得標以後那麼他承攬的工程那品質就不好所以我們就跟ADP建議說一定要在採購的這個結構上"},{"start":3218.032,"end":3218.392,"text":"議員：審查行政院"},{"start":3237.005,"end":3258.939,"text":"開始加入之後我們到目前的商機已經達到了17億左右17億美金左右所以我們在亞營那邊其實我們是用務實的態度務實的態度就是參與比如說設立跟其他國家合作來設立信託基金那麼也舉辦商機的一些座談會希望能夠讓廠商有更多的商機"},{"start":3266.124,"end":3292.285,"text":"這些豐厚的成果就請你們用書類來通知我們好不好我再請教5月4日永豐金召開董事會決議通過要以140億收購柬埔寨第一大微型存款金融機構百分百的股權只要經過臺灣跟柬埔寨相關主管機關核定或生效那次長這件事情是不是確定的這件事情對不起我聽不清楚我說"},{"start":3294.697,"end":3320.507,"text":"這個永豐金收購柬埔寨的這個金融機構的部分是不是已經確定了?這個我不是很清楚因為這個是永豐金他這個民間金融機構的事所以我不太清楚他的進度你不清楚那那這樣子我們要請誰來做回答呢?不是這個因為他是永豐金嘛他不是公股如果是公股還要回答"},{"start":3321.383,"end":3337.163,"text":"對啊李部長都已經去參加這個亞洲銀行開發銀行的年會對不對亞洲銀行的年會這個案子完全是兩件事完全是兩件事因為亞洲開發銀行是一個國際組織那這個案子是永豐金他是透過"},{"start":3340.125,"end":3361.059,"text":"通過他的方式到柬埔寨去投資。這是完全是兩回事。我想部長去參加這些銀行的年會應該會收穫滿滿。我們等他來委員會的時候再跟我們來說明。民眾看到了這一則新聞,看到有黃金要來收購柬埔寨的金融機構。"},{"start":3363.24,"end":3391.204,"text":"其實在民眾的心理他們感覺上就是說是不是錢太多了如果要做這種決定那是不是直接把這些盈餘分配給股東不是更好嗎我想請教說對於銀行開拓拓展海外市場的決策除了要需要平衡公司的戰略目標也需要注意股東權益及公眾的期待還要提高他的透明度跟溝通是不是這樣子"},{"start":3391.684,"end":3408.458,"text":"是 是當然那另外就是海關進口稅則今天排審這個部分除了增加馬紹爾AMH的國際代碼之外那我想要請教有調整部分品項的稅率有多少品項我們"},{"start":3416.298,"end":3417.179,"text":"111年馬紹兒進口的總額是多少?"},{"start":3437.273,"end":3454.931,"text":"進口總額111年去年是525萬台幣進口馬薩爾從馬薩爾進口的這些產品但是我們出口那邊就很大像去年去年的話是到79億那前年更多到131億"},{"start":3456.573,"end":3456.593,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3478.841,"end":3501.227,"text":"關稅的部分17.5%從2010年到現在都沒有調整過臨近的中國大陸只要15%整車進口南韓只要8%然後汽車龍頭日本甚至0%赤字的美國也只要2.5%台灣竟然要17.5%"},{"start":3503.067,"end":3531.433,"text":"那想要請教說財政部有沒有調降的規劃還是一樣要維持在17.5跟委員報告目前的這個稅率是我們對WTO的承諾那麼最早的那個稅率是29%那他給我們10年的時間調到目前的17.5那至於能不能再繼續調降我們要尊重事業主管機關的意見就是經濟部的意見"},{"start":3532.393,"end":3559.434,"text":"他們目前的看法是說目前就是說油電車轉為這個電車的關鍵時期如果繼續往下降的話可能會對我們國內的產業或者是零件產業發生影響這是一點另外就是說最近我們要申請加入一些國際組織那麼這一部分是我們談判的很重要一個籌碼所以這一部分如果我們自己降的話將來這個籌碼就流失了"},{"start":3561.656,"end":3581.351,"text":"所以這一部分我們會非常謹慎也會跟這個目的事業主導機關做充分的溝通目前台灣貨物稅關稅等等都是最高的以一部2000cc的汽車來做一個例子25%的貨物稅再加上5%的營業稅還有17.5%的關稅而且它不是累加它是累成"},{"start":3590.518,"end":3597.301,"text":"所以加起來的部分這個部分很恐怖是等於是54.2%五十四成本的54.2%這個我們會這個是要有這個部分要"},{"start":3605.936,"end":3622.923,"text":"要進行改善不管是整個降稅的部分還有我們剛剛提到的各項部分都要請你們多多來注釋這個事情我們這個會跟這個相關目的世界主管機關做充分溝通啦這個因為有他們來做決定不是我們來決定謝謝好謝謝顏匡英委員質詢緊接著我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":3642.099,"end":3656.723,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部阮次長有請阮次長委員早早這一次跟馬賽爾的這個今天要處理的是雙邊的經貿台馬經濟合作協定我們總共的農工產品有2965項要降為零那是因為關稅"},{"start":3671.645,"end":3671.885,"text":"主要是賣什麼?"},{"start":3689.684,"end":3707.619,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3708.052,"end":3708.172,"text":"國際財政委員會議"},{"start":3734.743,"end":3749.388,"text":"續續再往前走會很有力。那同時歐洲呢?對歐洲的狀況呢?因為臺美既然可以談到歐洲也是一個很重要的貿易未來的重要的貿易夥伴。有沒有在進行?"},{"start":3754.817,"end":3778.267,"text":"跟歐洲之間的是這樣子的因為歐盟他比較複雜歐盟因為他有很多會員國所以關於要簽這個像這相關的這個比如投資或經貿協定他這個是專屬他的執委會的職權所以如果執委會沒有授權的話是沒辦法進行的所以這個案子我們是比較棘手但是我們在繼續努力當中"},{"start":3779.207,"end":3786.451,"text":"好,謝謝你,那我請你回座,我要請環境部的呂簡潤記者。碳稅的事情這幾年在臺灣是非常的夯,大家都在討論,那這幾天也有媒體在報導說會延後,科證會延後,有這樣的事嗎?"},{"start":3810.427,"end":3825.682,"text":"目前因為進行到第三次的委員會議所以這個進度來講還是會尊重委員會議的一個決議的狀況那這是碳稅的課程要不要伴隨著這個碳權的交易這兩個有沒有直接的相關關係"},{"start":3827.516,"end":3849.509,"text":"假如是碳稅的話可能關係會比較直接啦但我們目前是就碳費的部分來做這個收費這個兩者還是有點差別這個都是走歐盟要求的模式啦齁我跟你說現在美國總統正在大選兩個總統候選人的理念是天南地北"},{"start":3851.031,"end":3868.536,"text":"這個你知道嗎?目前拜登當然他是對於這個碳的這個交易以及碳稅這個東西很重視民主黨從高爾一路來都是他認為地球化毀滅了那個溫度要加溫室效應怎麼樣怎麼樣說一直弄這個我跟你說這是一門好生意"},{"start":3870.188,"end":3890.638,"text":"所以有很多的美國名人阿比爾蓋茲阿買了一大堆農場阿準備將來從這上面在探全的交易上面他可以大有斬貨啦媒體有這樣的報導可是另外一方面阿不同的想法是川普他完全不認同這一套勒他公開演講講說探這個問題是一個假議題那這當然是兩個極端可是11月"},{"start":3900.765,"end":3927.248,"text":"就先排啦拜登連任呢或是川普又重新當選呢這個都會影響到美國對於碳以及碳稅、碳權這個問題那如果美國不依照歐盟的角度走他認為碳是一個假議題川普總統當選的話那台灣的處境要怎麼樣我們要跟著歐盟走嗎你知道加這個東西對我們的製造成本會增加很多欸是"},{"start":3928.922,"end":3952.482,"text":" 那我們製造成本加很多 別的國家沒有一致的標準的時候 那就是為難到我們台灣的製造業喔 那到時候中國不遵守 美國不遵守 假設川普當選的話 其他大國不遵守 偏偏抓我們台灣要來遵守 那這樣對台灣的製造業來講 不是會加了非常多的成本嗎 這個問題怎麼辦"},{"start":3955.534,"end":3984.083,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的審議會裡面基本上是有各方的專家包含經濟這一塊的層面的專家還有代表那其實在這些問題應該會一併就以這些專家意見來一併納入討論那就是納入討論到時候如果萬一我講的情況發生那就很好笑就台灣的產品還加上碳的成本然後"},{"start":3984.861,"end":3984.981,"text":"韓國財政委員會議"},{"start":4008.871,"end":4031.826,"text":"那如果自己還把這個碳再把它加進去那你叫台灣的製造業要如何生存台灣的製造業困難生存的話就會代表台灣的就業上面會吃虧啊那像現在無論是日本無論是美國這種很重要他們現在重要的都是要製造業回歸在他們的國家製造這樣他們的就業市場才能夠很強韌嘛"},{"start":4033.86,"end":4058.12,"text":"所以我覺得這個問題另外我有請教過人家碳稅交易碳的交易吼問過當初要訂的這些比較基層的公務員問他們說你們現在瞭解中文聽說碳訂的什麼樣差不多都三百萬啦他們不瞭解這是什麼東西就政策上面我跟你說政治吼自古先知都是寂寞的"},{"start":4059.301,"end":4085.462,"text":"所謂的政治應該是走在眾人前一步讓大家看得到可以跟隨啦如果走在眾人前一百步一千步人家看不見你的話這叫先知啊那先知是沒有辦法搞政治那這個將來面對這樣的處境我不知道要如何收拾我舉一個例子過去曾經2030年要求所有的排油的機車全部都不能生產"},{"start":4086.874,"end":4095.781,"text":"後來是引起計車公會奪到的反彈．大量的抗爭政策又轉彎我擔心會不會出現這樣的狀況這個感謝委員的提醒我們這一塊我們還是會密切注意國際的一個情勢發展國際的情勢發展"},{"start":4109.298,"end":4136.851,"text":"我當然知道用很先進的標準來要求我們啊我們自己很偉大但是你那個要求之下很多的成本就是要我們的基層的製造業的這些企業小企業主要承擔台灣的小企業主跟大財團這些大企業不太一樣他們沒有那麼大的能力去承擔這些東西他的跟人家的績效的利潤可能是兩趴三趴但在那邊就是要跟人家拼了"},{"start":4138.433,"end":4162.168,"text":"這個我是覺得這是一個大災的問題不是說因為你是環境部就一定要支持碳稅 碳權 要百分之百支持 不是喔 我是要讓你 我也不是反對 我是要讓你注意到 這個問題全世界有很多不同的看法還沒有到那麼一致說 如果全世界大家都同樣要求 那台灣也被要求 我覺得很合理"},{"start":4163.393,"end":4184.289,"text":"那如果很多國家是不用的就台灣自己說我因為我是地球公民我要承擔比所有人都要大的責任所以我自願來承擔這個我是要跟你講坐在辦公桌裡面的人不感覺在工廠裡面第一線工作這種企業老闆他們受不了這個問題要多多思考加油"},{"start":4189.799,"end":4190.12,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":4211.792,"end":4231.246,"text":"市長好,本席在週一的時候有舉辦一個會刊,那會刊是針對我們整個財政部所屬的金融機構跟相關機關的文化資產。那很遺憾的呢,三年前本席在擔任召委的時候也曾經進行過一次類似的會刊。"},{"start":4232.307,"end":4248.141,"text":"但是那一次不論是關務署也好或台銀北投的這個宿舍區也好基本上呢並沒有具體的進度三年其實這件事情當中本席呢非常的感慨也深深的體會到其實啊"},{"start":4249.574,"end":4271.637,"text":"財政部只對金融資產有興趣對文化資產顯得相對的沒有那麼高的重視不至於漠視因為你們還是有修復還不是有修復但是文化資產可貴的地方不是在於把它修復而已而是把它活化部長同意本席的看法嗎"},{"start":4273.738,"end":4289.843,"text":"謝謝委員,因為我知道委員對這個文化資產的重視,文化的確是我們的根,所以這個是很重要的一部分。是,沒有錯。像台銀,其實它我們一直督導它,就是就有關的那些古蹟那麼都逐一的修復。"},{"start":4290.723,"end":4319.75,"text":"那現在問題是他這個在過去的三年其實我一直都跟呂董事長在溝通啦他一直都已經招待已經流標很多次那我前幾天剛好就是委員去考察之後我又再跟他再討論我說是不是用別的方式有更有創新性的方式請這個學者專家提供一些見解那我們來看看用什麼方式可以盡量來活化有太多的方式可以招標了包括你積極的去邀標很多方法嘛對不對"},{"start":4320.59,"end":4347.025,"text":"公部門如果連招標都沒有辦法進行的話那跟態度有所關聯啊你想一想整個呢公股銀行跟民間的銀行最大的特色在哪裡就是我們擁有許許多多的文化資產包括歷史建築包括市定股機包括國定股機啊這不勝美舉啊你保存好這些文化資產啊基本上不但是"},{"start":4348.206,"end":4355.679,"text":"公股銀行的特色那也是公股銀行相關的機構的一種社會責任完全贊同這個情況底下"},{"start":4360.438,"end":4367.305,"text":"財政部有專責的人員或另外有思考到預算的編列考量到這些文化資產的一個維護嗎財政部部本部呢"},{"start":4378.317,"end":4404.165,"text":"那核庫那部分我那天也跟董董事長講就是說你要盡快把那個三樓跟四樓那部分盡快完成你知道國有財產署還沒有去講到盤點國有財產署很多地方宿舍那都一定年代以上那個都應該被列為文化資產身份的部分要如何去進行保存動不動隨便查在台北就一大堆了"},{"start":4405.005,"end":4432.927,"text":"我跟委員先一項一項報告就是關物署的關物署那個北投育成中心那個就經費的問題我會盡量來協調會面對將近一億你不要期待臺北市政府去跟你無償撥款我們來努力臺北市政府啊算盤算得準啊現在不用算盤啦用CPU啦用電腦啦會拜託這個文化部那邊來協助但是我們這邊自己也要努力"},{"start":4434.428,"end":4434.508,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4441.949,"end":4463.549,"text":"一百一十年以上的這種溫泉招待所日治時期啊臺灣罕見啊居然放在那邊任由防匯啊這真的是完全沒有道理啊我不要說沒有天理啊是完全沒有道理啊謝謝委員這個指教其實我是古蹟迷啦其實老實講我對古蹟真的非常重視那你重視要表現給粉絲看啊那好"},{"start":4467.612,"end":4473.119,"text":"財政部所屬公股銀行相關機關具有歷史身份的所有的建築物你要清查一份"},{"start":4483.39,"end":4484.21,"text":"相對單純不一定做得好"},{"start":4513.525,"end":4519.655,"text":"我只說相對,但是我的意思是說國產署它接了343項那才是大問題那是大問題,因為為什麼?因為鼓勵鼓勵鼓勵"},{"start":4527.666,"end":4545.913,"text":"報告委員,我們國產署經管的有343處。大概3年前我們有跟文化部做了全省的總盤查。你是文化資產大副耶。對對對,我們有做過全部的盤查,然後分類的處理方式。目前也編列了中長城計畫。"},{"start":4548.856,"end":4558.85,"text":"這一期是到116年,我們編列了8億多,目前在做修復的部分大概有7、8處已經完成的就是山山國王廟花了4900萬"},{"start":4564.147,"end":4588.186,"text":"少則數億多則數百億啊 對啊你要撥出一筆錢來做這個文化資產補償來處理這個國有財產所狹下的文化資產那沒有辦法嗎報告委員我們國有財產之下我們現在都有編類計預算經費那明年是一億本來是一到兩億多後來考慮到整個執行我每次走到台北街頭看到這棟宿舍在那邊翻回我就說啊這一直曾署長的"},{"start":4588.806,"end":4593.127,"text":"有些東西可以進行社會住宅活化有些呢是進行飆售有些呢是應該予以活用我看你署長另外做一個報告給我好了整個布的是給"},{"start":4617.234,"end":4618.756,"text":"美國政府眾議院在1月31日已經表決通過了但是參議院還沒有"},{"start":4634.714,"end":4652.177,"text":"我理解的部分通過的時候其實是用包裹方式的在美國家庭及勞工稅收的減免法案當中就這個部分我們6月的部分真的能夠簽訂嗎?我覺得是因為剛好是美國在大選"},{"start":4653.578,"end":4661.184,"text":"對阿,你們部長當初誇下豪口,說6月就可以簽訂是這樣,我跟委員報告,的確眾議院通過了,但是到參議院的時候因為他有一個載具,那個載具涉及到一個勞工的減免稅的問題"},{"start":4673.454,"end":4681.423,"text":"但是勞工減免稅那部分一直喬不攏,一直喬不攏所以卡在那個地方卡在參議院裡頭的政黨協商參議院卡在那邊,卡多久你也很難判斷所以6月的簽署就有所變數了"},{"start":4692.995,"end":4712.982,"text":"已經有積極去溝通了但是我是覺得那個很多東西我們主動選在他們那邊第一個時程出現問題第二個我問內容的部分因為台灣是肥卡條款的這個簽署國我們會提供資料給美國作為課稅的依據嘛 對不對對那美國也會提供給我們嗎對對這個會雙方依據都會有對"},{"start":4716.288,"end":4717.829,"text":"對我得到資訊好像不是喔你最好問清楚喔有嗎"},{"start":4734.639,"end":4753.795,"text":"他會另外簽一個就是租稅你們會第一個透過另外一個租稅協定也就是共同申報準則來作為資訊交換對也就是台美租稅協定完之後你還要簽署跨政府的協議CAA或者呢共同申報準則CRS才能達到這個目標對不對"},{"start":4756.618,"end":4763.365,"text":"那個是下一階段那個是我請市長來說這個細節來說明一下這一點很重要哦那肥咖條款你要去課稅這個很關鍵啊"},{"start":4765.36,"end":4781.673,"text":"報告委員我們現在肥咖條款針對肥咖的事情目前金管會已經有主責跟他們簽了跨政府的合作協定那是針對肥咖條款的部分那這個是針對雙方的那個是銀行帳戶的資訊"},{"start":4785.436,"end":4797.69,"text":"另外我們依據我們以後如果跟美國簽訂租稅協定的話在我們租稅協定全面性的租稅協定裡面會有一個資訊交換的條文那這個資訊交換的條文"},{"start":4800.333,"end":4800.353,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":4821.696,"end":4845.831,"text":"最早期會只有個案還不會到CRS的部分那但是我們另外目前金管會在幾年前有跟美國簽了一個那個叫做跨政府合作協定那是為了透過臺美租稅協定在金管會的努力情況底下這些肥咖就可以現行了我覺得那個跟委員報告這是兩件事情肥咖是關於資金融資訊的交換"},{"start":4846.651,"end":4861.198,"text":"我們剛才委員提的就是稅務資訊的交換稅務資訊的交換現在已經包括在那個協定裏面那個草案裏面將來還是基於互惠的我希望透過財政部跟金管會的雙邊的努力能夠讓肥咖造有一點現形好不好謝謝謝謝我們郭昭偉接著我們請賴會員委員"},{"start":4878.065,"end":4881.748,"text":"謝謝主席我們請財政部次長還有我們那個稅務署雙署長"},{"start":4890.529,"end":4903.443,"text":"市長早安市長我想針對的就是說美國已經注意到中國的一個威脅尤其是中國的電動車在啟動徵收100%的這一個關稅裡頭那美國將對就是5825億的中國的商品加了這個"},{"start":4912.173,"end":4913.554,"text":"市長有什麼樣的一個看法?"},{"start":4941.907,"end":4956.596,"text":"這是美國他的政策啦,特別是他大選期間兩黨的候選人其實都盡相開出相關的一些政策出來那事實上現在美國政府實際上已經在這個啟動這樣的一個關稅政策這個是美國他的狀況"},{"start":4961.458,"end":4987.809,"text":"有沒有反觀回到我們境內就是說在我們台灣在2017七年其實比亞迪就透過他是一個零件零件到台灣來然後甚至就是說他其實就是凱盛能他用代理的這個中國的比亞迪的一個零件那首波他主要攻的是計程車的一個市場那市長你有沒有去注意到這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4988.809,"end":5006.303,"text":"我們需不需要有一個什麼樣的一個積極的作為?基本上我們有一些措施啦,比如說像我們目前有一個就是在我們叫做MW0也就是說對大陸的一些商品我們是禁止進口的,大概2000多項是禁止進口的"},{"start":5011.107,"end":5034.958,"text":"所以像比亞迪這個東西到底要不要讓他進來這個就看事業主管機關他的評估他執行當然是海關在執行但是評估還是有主管機關的評估評估在執行所以你有注意到了這些問題那我再問你就是說再請教一下在還請銷稅實施的辦法的第7條他要求業者提出過去的三年影響就是這產業的一個狀況的說明那你會不會認為就是說"},{"start":5040.66,"end":5055.128,"text":"只有看過去的三年會不會是看了你一個產業如果像這個就是大陸這樣子的一個傾銷的話其實三年這個所有的產業都已經被打趴了有沒有去注意到就是說"},{"start":5056.108,"end":5076.514,"text":"這是大型的喔這是電動車喔那如果在小型的在我們生活上你一樣一樣看到了就是不管是蝦皮還是說任何的一個網路的一個信息我們都可以買到非常廉價的一個日用商品那在這裡頭你們有沒有想到它是不是有加關稅呢"},{"start":5078.683,"end":5092.913,"text":"我們目前就是說如果他有傾銷影響到我們的產業的話那是有產業他會提出來那我們就會去審查如果是真的有涉及到"},{"start":5093.533,"end":5116.065,"text":"我想在這裡我們已經看到了中國低價的商品傾銷在全世界不是只有在臺灣了那你看美國韓國華國印尼甚至印尼都是已經把這個低價的免稅額從75塊的美金降到3塊錢的美金他們已經意識到就是中國低價商品他其實會影響到"},{"start":5117.346,"end":5135.162,"text":"議員．審議"},{"start":5135.222,"end":5158.34,"text":"地點在南投你已經下單了可是卻要10個工作天這些東西這些商品是不是從中國來你看他在網路上提出來的都是中國的一個證照出貨點可是他是寫在南投縣信義鄉甚至有很多他的出貨點是在桃園那你們扣不扣他關稅"},{"start":5162.467,"end":5175.66,"text":"這個關稅當然進到我們國門的時候,如果是他可以進來的話那當然是會有關稅的問題那如果他是被註記說NW0的話他是不能進來的"},{"start":5176.661,"end":5197.071,"text":"所以剛才講的就是說如果比亞迪據我了解他電動車是不是進來的我現在已經不跟你講電動車了我跟你講的是最小的一個連一個髮飾連一個就是一件衣服這個都是香奈兒的相同的一個款項然後甚至是一個包包一個快時尚我是不是請關務署署長回答我"},{"start":5198.474,"end":5215.44,"text":"跟委員報告那這些貨物如果他是大盤商從中國大陸進來當然在通過我們關口的時候就必須要依照我們的規定繳稅至於發貨地在哪裡那就是看每個廠商的一個規定只要他通過我們的關口就一定要繳稅"},{"start":5216.738,"end":5237.065,"text":"就是你競價你們現在還就是說一直在繞著一個圈子繞中國的低價低價品請消我們國內充斥我們整個大家的一個生活上的一個比比皆是我們甚至就是在每一個人的家庭裡頭你都會看到你的小孩子甚至我們的助理他們都去賣"},{"start":5238.045,"end":5264.609,"text":"買一個就是最快然後最方便可是最不實用的這些日用商品然後我們任由這樣子的這些中國的低價的一個傾銷品然後影響到我們的生活品質影響到我們臺灣的各種產業那你到底扣不扣他稅有沒有辦法扣他稅你們有沒有這樣的一個統計呢跟委員報告有的那怎麼樣有你告訴我"},{"start":5266.169,"end":5290.759,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5290.839,"end":5291.079,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5315.033,"end":5338.65,"text":"這個金額不動,金額不動可是還是持續下降的時候,它表示就是說它的數量一直在增加,表示它的包裹,小型的包裹一直在增加。署長,針對的這樣子的一個大量的包裹湧入台灣,你們有沒有做這樣的統計,然後有沒有做它的內容物的一個調查呢?"},{"start":5339.691,"end":5358.323,"text":"報告委員這經過海關關口的話是我們關務署這邊負責的那我們是負責我要問你說關務署進來的這些小型的包裹小型的包裹你們扣不扣稅我可以請關務署彭署長嗎可以請"},{"start":5362.313,"end":5376.919,"text":"關稅部分跟營業稅部分是海關在邊境上會課徵關稅也代徵這個營業稅只要符合我們應該要繳稅的規定一定會課徵關稅跟營業稅可是他如果是跟你拆包呢?"},{"start":5377.981,"end":5401.491,"text":"他跟你拆包呢?你有沒有這樣的一個統計呢?這些海關都有一直在防範,因為每年進口的報單量大概都5000多萬份。你有沒有這樣的一個統計表格呢?是,我們都有相關的一個統計。好,非常好。那是不是就是說在會後一個禮拜內,請把這些資料,完整的資料,統計的資料給本席呢?"},{"start":5403.787,"end":5424.932,"text":"在這裡次長我在要求經濟部主動調查哪些產業是受到影響的並且評估各個產業的影響的一個程度就像說來自於我們的中小中小的一個日用品的一個產業就是我們的那個時裝產業還是我們的鞋子的一個產業那關務署應該依據經濟部的一個調查狀況針對受影響的產品那即刻啟動一個還請銷的一個調查"},{"start":5431.853,"end":5455.602,"text":"那關務署我也在這裡就是要求就是說現行的還請銷的一個申請跟審查的要件是不是太嚴了那關務署你應該評估現有的低價的免稅額制度對產業的一個影響若是有影響是絕對有影響的你應該提出一個具體的一個應對的措施那是不是也跟其他的國家一樣限縮呢"},{"start":5457.182,"end":5477.968,"text":"現在說這個非常的重要那有希望就是說次長這個在一個月內提出書面報告給本席好不好好我們在謝謝委員的指教這的確是很重要的問題了那我想這個我們在報告裡面再詳細的跟委員來報告好不好好謝謝謝謝次長謝謝謝謝戴惠文委員質詢接著我們請王宏威委員質詢"},{"start":5488.476,"end":5492.524,"text":"好謝謝主席我請今天是次長是吧來讓次長請"},{"start":5498.704,"end":5523.406,"text":"委員早次長早次長最近監察院有一個說要啟動調查要調查什麼呢就是說我們的保健食品的關稅過高說高達百分之三十比汽車還要高所以已經有監察委員申請自動調查這個案子呢其實這個議題討論了非常久"},{"start":5525.808,"end":5550.163,"text":"但是現在有監委自請調查我想請問一下市長我們財政部的回應是什麼因為這樣子的話一定是來跟我們財政部來了解嘛我想可能相關人一定都會被監委去約談所以財政部如何因應財政部的回應是什麼第一點就是說關於目前的維他命的這個稅率現在是30%這個是我們進WTO的一個承諾的稅率"},{"start":5555.219,"end":5578.014,"text":"那這一部分在將來稅率要不要繼續降這個要尊重我們主管機關的意見那目前經濟部給我們的意見是說目前假定在這個繼續降的話可能會影響到嚴重影響到國內的相關的產業甚至撤出的這種狀況他說如果要降那就要逐步慢慢的降還要跟這個業者慢慢的溝通"},{"start":5578.474,"end":5604.628,"text":"然後看有沒有機會來有個空間慢慢來講所以就財政部來說因為我有注意到財政部也曾經針對稅收的部分說會減少稅收12億左右也有表達好像是反對的意見所以我想請問次長就是說按照監察院調查現在越來越關切這個議題您剛講的是經濟部的意見那財政部的意見是什麼"},{"start":5605.602,"end":5632.017,"text":"基本上這個稅率的問題我們都是主管機關在做決定那他去評估所以財政部不會反對我們基本上不會反對所以我這邊可以總結由經濟部自行去評估會不會針對我們的本土產業造成衝擊但是財政部針對稅收會不會損失等等我們不會因為這個理由而採取反對的意見是嗎"},{"start":5632.677,"end":5649.214,"text":"因為它涉及的稅收不是太大啦我待會就會講其實呢我們因為以為可以收到稅但是事實上呢因為我們現在市面上大家知道非常多啊很多代購那事實上我們還少收到稅好再來看"},{"start":5651.356,"end":5676.677,"text":"這個議題其實大家討論了非常久那當然很多都會把世界各國的關稅拿來做比較如果你攤開跟我們的鄰國或者是美國歐盟或者中國大陸你可以看到我們的保健食品的稅率確實比其他國家都要高而且高得多所以剛剛講說如果這是我們加入WTO是不是"},{"start":5677.908,"end":5691.584,"text":"對,我們當時的承諾的稅率可是WTO就是一個世界的準則如果世界各國的保健食品的關稅的稅率都沒有這麼高那沒有道理會要求台灣你要採取這麼高的一個關稅壁壘啊"},{"start":5694.167,"end":5706.064,"text":"所以剛才我也跟委員報告就是說我們主管機關其實他也有鬆口啦他說其實如果要降的話是說不能夠就是等於是說急劇的往下降大家要降了嗎降10%降15%降一半"},{"start":5709.909,"end":5714.133,"text":"本土業者當然希望說有關稅來保護他但是我們要考慮到整個的世界各國的稅率尤其消費者因為消費者會越來越反彈"},{"start":5733.97,"end":5761.005,"text":"我們剛剛講說差那麼多人家在美國一顆才兩塊八不到三塊錢我們台灣將七塊錢對不對那消費者會覺得說你今天是不是在撥水我們消費者然後去補貼本土業者因為我們現在本土業確實也非常的多呀是不是那所以如果以這個主管機關願意逐步調降那你們現在所談論的逐步調降是分兩階段還是分三階段"},{"start":5761.925,"end":5777.377,"text":"這個我們要看主管機關他的做法跟他的想法那基本上我覺得最重要就是說如果將來萬利降稅了最重要就是說這降稅的利益要回饋到消費者所以很重要這是很重要的一點因為你降稅之後你的這個價格就要隨之調降啊"},{"start":5784.042,"end":5786.103,"text":"包括委員 雖然我是不是把今天委員的意見我帶回去我們跟主管機關反映好不好"},{"start":5800.272,"end":5817.404,"text":"你們可不可以跟我講一下大概你們多久的時間可以有一個定論因為這個東西主導權真的不在我們手上,如果我們主導的我們就可以回答了因為馬上520之後新的經濟部長也上任了,新的這些官員"},{"start":5818.244,"end":5833.512,"text":"我們來看其實這個就是我說因為瞭解很清楚嘛因為我們在網路上其實有很多代購的那最後我們反而課不到稅好另外要請教一個蠻重要的問題就是我們也有特別提高就是我們的入境免稅額"},{"start":5834.833,"end":5855.279,"text":"也是討論非常久大家都覺得兩萬塊早就不合時宜了對不對那現在呢你們是準備提高到三萬五對三萬五確定了嗎確定了已經預告了應該六月份就可以發布那什麼時候可以實施應該六月應該是六月六月就可以可以從六月一號開始嗎"},{"start":5857.78,"end":5862.581,"text":"應該是6月,但是幾號?因為預告要期滿才能夠發布,時間點反正就6月,1號跟15號我覺得差距已經不大了。"},{"start":5874.486,"end":5892.6,"text":"我是覺得因為一般來講我們七八月因為也是暑假的旺季那可以讓我們廣大的這個民眾我相信在六月以後去出國旅遊的人一定會非常非常多可能回國內的人也很多那在這樣的狀況之下能夠盡快的讓我們享受到可以這個入境的免稅額能夠調高"},{"start":5901.147,"end":5916.464,"text":"另外的部分就是3萬5雖然我們從2萬塊提高到3萬5這個條幅算是蠻高的可是問題是因為它很多年很多年都沒有條然後再加上我們也都會提到說臺灣的甚至講說臺灣的實質購買力已經超越日本跟韓國"},{"start":5922.03,"end":5927.717,"text":"韓國的免稅額也是偏低日本和台北大概是4萬多我們特別大方一點調高到4萬"},{"start":5936.367,"end":5938.288,"text":"所以你們現在3萬5就是確定的事情"},{"start":5963.641,"end":5964.842,"text":"謝謝主席喔 有請這個次長 謝謝"},{"start":5993.387,"end":5994.508,"text":"有請阮次現在金門因為沒有入客到金門觀光然後台灣的旅客到金門的也相當少所以金門非常的慘淡尤其觀光業者"},{"start":6013.947,"end":6030.917,"text":"上個月我本期接受到很多成豬國家公園的民宿業者的相關賣店的陳情希望爭取可以還收減免租金我跟內政部國外公園署開過會他們初步有達成共識比照新冠疫情期間來做這些規定"},{"start":6033.579,"end":6039.762,"text":"國安公務署也同意了公文呢?國安公務署昨天已經發了一個公文到貴部到財政部去說希望你們可以盡速的同意核備有收到了嗎?是不是有收到了那什麼時候可以核備下來呢?"},{"start":6060.151,"end":6084.537,"text":"欸沒有麥克風對不起因為是這樣就是說目前這個他這個標租的這個單位他是這個金管處對金管處國家公營所金管處那如果要減租的話要根據合約來啦是是那合約看他們已經研究過了所以才會才會同意然後請你們備查對如果是合約裡面有規定那就根據合約來"},{"start":6086.717,"end":6109.367,"text":"儘管素憑國有仍然符合國有公用不動產收益的原則的規定上面有寫對所以等於是說如果是在合約本身沒有明文規定的話我們另外就是說看其他的法令比如說這個行政院或其他法令有沒有說不動產租金的優惠或減免的規定如果有的話就依照那個規定處理因為所以送到財政部是請你們核備"},{"start":6110.908,"end":6111.008,"text":"主席"},{"start":6129.993,"end":6130.233,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6151.182,"end":6175.02,"text":"離島健身條例第10條第2項您看喔 這個有規定了齁澎湖金門馬祖離島蘭嶼等就是琉球這些離島這些地區營業人進口並於當地銷售之商品免徵關稅免稅項目及施辦法是財政部訂的吧是 這個這個次長跟署長都了解吧你看這個辦法民國89年後99年修正過一次公佈的這個免徵關稅喔320項是320項是是"},{"start":6180.044,"end":6186.697,"text":"這個條文是同時限定離營業人進口並於當地銷售之商品可以免關稅,用意是什麼?"},{"start":6188.904,"end":6193.688,"text":"這個當然就是發展離島的經濟,就是說在那邊消費才能夠振興離島的經濟。而且如果是說在那邊買,買以後再帶回來,也可以免稅。這個條文,這個法令在民國99年修訂到今天已經14個年頭了,有沒有檢討過?"},{"start":6214.307,"end":6219.172,"text":"有沒有檢討過?99年到現在沒有檢討過喔?沒有檢討過喔?你有沒有統計過那個項目有320項從開始實施到今天進口多少數量跟我們金馬鵬這個離島的縣民真正的民生需求物資有沒有落差?"},{"start":6236.207,"end":6250.583,"text":"我們可能還在評估,但是如果,因為的確是時間過了蠻久,因為99年到現在,二十幾年了。如果是真的有需求的話,我是建議就是說是由我們金門縣政府這邊,就是把那個項目還有它的理由"},{"start":6254.867,"end":6271.655,"text":"那麼就是送到我們的關務署那他就會邀集相關的機關關務署然後他邀集比如說像國發會市長說得很好喔那你看喔我給你看一下這個320項的免關稅商品在金門地區110年只有一項適用118年8項112年15項320項裡頭只有一項適用好你說要請地方政府提上來對吧對上來"},{"start":6280.259,"end":6307.115,"text":"但是我這邊沒辦法承諾說一定可以過但是最起碼就是說這個程序一定要走對金馬鵬三縣的縣政府在民國104年有提出過有啊104年就提出來修正免徵關稅品項及旅遊的會診表下文在哪裡呢這是金馬鵬你看三縣不只是我們這三縣剛好現在澎湖市民進黨執政金門市民眾黨執政馬祖市國民黨執政三黨都有"},{"start":6308.456,"end":6324.545,"text":"我們三縣常常一起開這個離島的縣市的相關的會議每一年都有開三縣都聯合提出來了一百零十人你看公文有給你們那個陳光復後面連江縣金門縣提出來為什麼沒有下文你剛剛不是叫地方提出來嗎"},{"start":6325.405,"end":6340.977,"text":"據我瞭解齁,據我瞭解那一次提出來以後,那麼各相關的機關是有意見啊。有什麼意見?所以我是說,那時候是104年,但是現在是113年。對,我的意思是說你剛剛說請各縣市提出來,都有提出來,但是沒有下文嘛。"},{"start":6342.137,"end":6366.182,"text":"所以呢表示你們在這個地方真的是不夠重視啊這個三個線都提出來了比如說我舉例沒關係因為時間有限喔比如說我舉例金門缺的醫療相關資源這個320項只有7項跟醫療有關啊還有這個什麼天然氣公車啊這個我們也沒有天然氣啊這些東西就是說不符合啦很多東西不符合那已經經過14年喔這個什麼時候要啟動來修正主動嘛"},{"start":6370.203,"end":6387.647,"text":"我們就是請那個金門縣政府就是提出來了不要等人家提出來主動啊 他們提出來你們都有意見啊 國務署是不是找個時間我們沒辦法隨便隨便那個我們不知道他的需求是什麼我覺得還是 他們的需求告訴了你們以後你們也是你剛剛說104的那一次你們覺得104的那一次發生什麼事情 那個署長那時候在嗎"},{"start":6392.488,"end":6404.618,"text":"一百零四年那一次市長不一定在一百零五年二月三月我們有去問那個貨品主管機關但是我們得到的回覆他們都有意見是貨品主管機關有意見阿你們勒"},{"start":6406.487,"end":6429.599,"text":"你們沒有意見,但是...所以只要他們沒意見,你們就沒意見?所以現在是貨品主管的意見,不是...那如果貨品主管說是...像比如說我今天提出的離島健身條例的修法,那他們會說是...這個主管居然現在離島健身條例是國發會,他們會說是財政部有意見啊我怎麼覺得各部會都有那種互相打太極的感覺"},{"start":6430.725,"end":6447.637,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":6447.717,"end":6473.535,"text":"金門的這個發展我想我們具體來排時間我想會後對不對是不是關公署我們找個時間我們來討論一下然後這個金門縣政府怎麼做我們大家來好好的開會討論好不好好具體的來提出來啦不要不要說這個好像好像就是說好像就是說你們說我們沒提到我們提出來你們又不准嘛那事實上時間這樣過去也一二十年了很多東西事實上有在改變嘛可以這樣子嗎我們排個時間來好謝謝"},{"start":6478.198,"end":6481.6,"text":"謝謝陳昀臻委員質詢接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢我想請次長還有國庫署陳署長 次長以及國庫署署長委員早"},{"start":6505.01,"end":6527.452,"text":"財政部還有國庫署我想我們目前行政院非常重視居住正義所以我們對於居住正義做的不夠的部分不斷的用各種的法案來推動尤其是平均地權條例限制預售屋目前為止這幾天看到的新聞剛好相反我們的預售市場大爆發"},{"start":6529.792,"end":6554.863,"text":"買單非常的好那當然國庫署這邊負責的是新青安貸款對吧對新青安貸款目前上路之後申請的狀況如何對不起委員申請的狀況如何目前如果從8月去年8月份上線的話大概就是大概目前有44000多戶了所以市長那你覺得跟我們這一波所謂的購屋狂潮有沒有關係"},{"start":6556.365,"end":6577.211,"text":"我是覺得新清安其實在實施之前其實是大家草野的共識沒錯但是我們希望不要變成草房的幫兇但是因為新清安他的使用條件非常的明確那一定是說本人還有他的配偶還有他的未成年的"},{"start":6578.051,"end":6597.837,"text":"他有一定的限制但是相對的是他的確跟我們平均經濟條例希望能夠抑制所謂的房價目前看起來的效益剛好是相反也就是說在我們政策工具上面其實我們行政院的不同部門提出的東西他其實是互相拉扯的第一個"},{"start":6598.976,"end":6623.608,"text":"最重要的是全國的住宅指數從比112年第4季比第3季上漲了2.27又比111年上漲了6.8%也就是說我們的住宅的價格不斷的在上漲那現在新清安是由我們的公營航庫來做提供那目前為止它現在你們有一個要求剛剛講了新清安的目標希望讓"},{"start":6624.963,"end":6645.506,"text":"年輕人或者是他有自助需求的人可以得到比較低利的貸款然後他可以負擔得起所以自助是不是唯一的條件其中一個條件自助而且是他唯一的一戶唯一的一戶自助而且單一他不可以是投資客嘛但是"},{"start":6646.947,"end":6656.662,"text":"我想問一下目前為止你們如何他是確定他是自主我們現在19公股行戶在審的時候一定要根據相關的授信原則去評估怎麼樣審"},{"start":6659.69,"end":6681.415,"text":"就是根據他比如說他的財產是不是只有一戶那怎麼證明他是自住第二個我們希望他到現場去看去看現場是他自住比如說他有家具有生活用品有他自己個人的"},{"start":6682.535,"end":6683.736,"text":"所以現在有追到嗎?"},{"start":6698.226,"end":6702.027,"text":"我同意啦,我們都同意但是市長我們的問題就在於說現在已經有人利用年輕人當人頭去買了這些房子以後然後"},{"start":6724.196,"end":6741.389,"text":"我現在問的是你們有沒有跟任何的其他目前政府部門有的資料來做勾結比如說有人還去申請了租金補貼你們有沒有勾結有人還去做了租金的中所稅的"},{"start":6742.11,"end":6742.45,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6771.423,"end":6789.851,"text":"另外我跟委員報告其實我覺得新清安其實是變代罪羔羊為什麼呢因為它的占比其實很小很小沒錯但是它會造成說大家會一種防事的期待心理因為有這樣子的優惠所以大家防"},{"start":6791.512,"end":6809.689,"text":"所以我們不要讓新青安貸款輪為草房的幫兇首先不要讓他成為包租公拿新青安當成低價利息還可以去當包租公還可以有高收益"},{"start":6810.53,"end":6834.986,"text":"好不好這是最重要的標準第二個部分就是我們希望財政部最後的勾肌變成你的SOP因為這些錢是人民的納稅錢不能成為這些人他們讓無房青年我們支持他的善意跟相關的地道竟然變成炒房的幫兇這是第一個第二個部分我請一下關務署"},{"start":6839.554,"end":6841.136,"text":"然後次長請留步委員好"},{"start":6858.575,"end":6873.575,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6874.225,"end":6892.961,"text":"委員如果是我們這邊有終止或停止的他就不會成為免稅對象是那這是我剛剛講的目前為止我們看到的這5個國家現在只有巴拿馬還積蓄了FTA其他4個國家目前為止都應該已經終止了吧因為斷交之後FTA終止了嗎"},{"start":6893.922,"end":6909.103,"text":"終止或停止跟亂交FTA沒有關係因為我們在看你這個海關進口稅則他們還在上面沒有拿下來那我們今天要加馬紹爾那這四個為什麼不把他拿下來"},{"start":6911.867,"end":6925.166,"text":"報告委員,那個拿下來的部分就是說它終止,如果終止施行效率之後,我們就會把它在海關進口稅則改變。所以我現在要問的是,它已經斷交了,你什麼時候要終止完成?"},{"start":6927.915,"end":6954.37,"text":"不知道就是我們因為我們不審這個稅則我還不知道會有這種事也就是說是不是我們關務署說明清楚對立法院來說我們需要知道我來補充一下現在是這樣子我們現在就是關於對比如說像宏都拉斯宏都拉斯他是他主動根據FTA的規定來通報我們說這個我要退出FTA是"},{"start":6954.95,"end":6955.952,"text":"市長我的意見就是說民時相輔啦"},{"start":6967.894,"end":6993.891,"text":"如果有這種狀況我們所有的東西配套要盡快的完成不要感覺有個偽裝建築還繼續掛在那邊然後我們又跟他斷交了然後我們又還在海關實行稅則上還給他一大堆免稅的規範我跟委員補充一下就是另外兩個國家就薩爾瓦多薩爾瓦多跟這個另外一個國家跟尼加拉瓜跟尼加拉瓜這兩個國家不一樣他根本沒有通知我們"},{"start":6994.631,"end":6995.212,"text":"謝謝黃先生委員質詢接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":7032.58,"end":7043.407,"text":"謝謝主席我請政務次長跟關務署彭署長經濟部產發署有過來齁產發署有代表委員 委員長這個次長那個"},{"start":7059.005,"end":7084.54,"text":"我們今天談關稅可是我不跟你談提案的這些關稅我倒是要跟你談一下我們進口保健食品的關稅啦這個進口保健食品的部分長期以來我們這個關稅過高那社會各界也反映也有相關學者專家都提出這一部分我們政府錯誤的"},{"start":7086.394,"end":7086.594,"text":"議員．審查委員．"},{"start":7109.975,"end":7126.785,"text":"財政部應要這麼高的關稅說是要保護我們國內的生技產業結果反而讓這些不肖業者利用高關稅的保護那生產很多劣質品反而危害了我們國人的健康"},{"start":7128.086,"end":7156.599,"text":"而且也導致我們國內保健食品跟國外像日本美國這些先進國家相比價差高達3倍以上這些都非常不公平的啦至於說這樣是不是保護了我們國內的相關生技製藥業者其實結果反而沒有保護到好的也沒保護到讓不好的到處充斥"},{"start":7157.608,"end":7177.817,"text":"那個書上你應該很清楚我們一年國內我們國民消費這個保健食品如果根據食品工業發展研究所他們的估算他們估算說一年大概以前年為例他們認為大概1700億左右的這樣子的市場而我們的"},{"start":7179.895,"end":7201.713,"text":"保健食品的關稅是多少?百分之三十欸!署長你知道吧?是,知道這就你們訂的嘛,你也很清楚嘛百分之三十這麼高的關稅遠高於日本跟全世界各國比欸日本算高的喔"},{"start":7202.813,"end":7226.96,"text":"他不到15% 14.56我們的一半不到啦那美國更少6.4韓國8%連那麼蠻橫的對岸中國也才8.5%啦8.5%那甚至我們跟自己的相比同樣的東西我們是保健食品我們抽30%香煙我們抽27%"},{"start":7231.894,"end":7253.322,"text":"天吶,香煙是為了要維護國人健康那希望說藉由這個高關稅這個來防止他們有害健康的部分但是保健食品是要促進提升國人健康的反而還比香煙還高那你不覺得這很荒唐很荒謬嗎那個次長署長你們看法呢"},{"start":7261.705,"end":7273.253,"text":"報告委員 這個剛才有委員關心這個案子那我想這個目前這個保健食品的關稅稅率是30%這個是我們在進入WTO的時候的承諾的稅率"},{"start":7278.547,"end":7298.829,"text":"那至於說未來將來要不要降這個是要尊重主管機關的意見啦主管機關目前 以後來的以後推給經濟部 我覺得你長期以來動不動你就互推不動我們關務署是執行單位他不是決策的單位 那你剛剛說尊重"},{"start":7300.086,"end":7300.566,"text":"現在說可以考慮?"},{"start":7323.702,"end":7327.425,"text":"這個我回去我帶是不是容許我帶回去連你奉為規念你奉為上級機關的經濟部你都動不動動不動你都推給他好了那他都講了啊他都講說這個部分可以研究囉"},{"start":7341.314,"end":7362.8,"text":"委員會分工沒有什麼這個什麼上級機關不是這樣這個因為他們是主管機關所以我們要尊重他們的意見他的意見如果正確的我們尊重嘛所以他的意見他說這個是為了保護國內產業那你知道嗎所謂的保護國內產業讓很多生技業他不但"},{"start":7363.86,"end":7386.651,"text":"不研發新藥他改來生產這些保健食品而且很多數是不肖的這些廠商你不但沒保護他他從來也不研發藥品他從來也不製作對國人有益的藥品他改來做這一項他們靠著不實的廣告那生產這些劣藥我"},{"start":7388.322,"end":7408.557,"text":"我其他不講,我光講一家傳統的生技公司齁這一家叫加格,加格一年啊一年高達343億的營業額啦其他好幾家他全部其他的藥品都不做了,不研發通通來做保健食品"},{"start":7409.625,"end":7434.258,"text":"那這價格算好的喔是好的喔另外出名的葡萄王啦大江生衣啦陳輝啦這些都是保健食品站我剛剛講的這幾家大廠站他們90%的生產金額欸90%所以大家其他不做啦因為你高關稅的保護嘛啊大家就搶著"},{"start":7435.872,"end":7460.529,"text":"雨後春筍班一個一個一個都跑出來那都來做保健食品就好因為你這個高關稅保護著嘛好啦那我剛舉的這些是好的喔好的廠商欸不好的廠商名字我就不講啦我就講說他們造成的危害好了他們靠這些不實的廣告我相信你們很清楚嘛"},{"start":7461.309,"end":7464.571,"text":"一大堆誇張不實的廣告保健食品他等於以藥品的方式在廣告那藥品我們必須醫師醫院處方針才能使用啊"},{"start":7488.154,"end":7506.787,"text":"尤其這些心臟病高血壓糖尿病視力退化這些都是必須專業醫師的處方針跟診治結果他們以這個不實的廣告這些不實廣告罰多少光我就講光講說改善視力賣"},{"start":7509.586,"end":7519.537,"text":"說改善勢力的這一家好了每天廣告都充斥他去年吶一共被罰兩億五千萬光這一家"},{"start":7521.62,"end":7546.808,"text":"兩億五千萬喔所以你們這高關稅到底在保護誰啦你保護了這些不肖廠商而且你讓人家本來正規的製藥業生技業者因為這龐大的商機嘛這高關稅的保護他們不研發新藥啦通通來做保健食品結果"},{"start":7550.958,"end":7562.701,"text":"結論你保護了誰嘛你反而讓我們國內生技產業退化了不是嗎所以我認為這是當務之急你們非做不可啦那個署長你的看法呢是報告委員我們會將這些意見在函請這個這個我們工業局這邊再做評估你是那個報告我是關務署"},{"start":7579.125,"end":7601.71,"text":"官副署是你說要你再請因為貨品主管機關還是屬於這個經濟部這邊我們還是要請他就委就是你你就是源頭嘛源頭都告訴你你說要保護我們國內的生技產業結果沒有保護到你讓不肖業者應運而生"},{"start":7603.561,"end":7623.88,"text":"然後你要讓我們既有好的廠商業者不再研發啦通通來做保健品因為有高關稅的保護因為他們有高利益不是這樣嗎然後那些不肖業者還透過不實廣告因為這個利益太大啦高利之下"},{"start":7625.43,"end":7646.537,"text":"重力之下這是暴力的行為結果他們用不實廣告那買通了地下電台連電視直接侵入電視每天就這麼這樣跟你講我剛剛就跟你講啊光是吃眼睛說眼睛看後面的一年罰兩億五千萬他還繼續撥"},{"start":7648.666,"end":7667.18,"text":"你們就是始作俑者欸!王永遠,將來如果有機會我們再辦聯席委員會好了,這個主題好不好?那個主席,我再...是不是他要回答20秒鐘?經濟部,你把你剛剛那句話收回去,你要找誰研究?就是你嘛,你還找誰研究?廠房署代表"},{"start":7668.488,"end":7696.073,"text":"主席主席好我們這個委員的一些意見我們會再重新來做一個評估再來把這個意見送給那個財政部來做整個的稅制的一個的檢討多久啦多久你多久經濟部你什麼時候做出你們內部可以去把這個層面改掉差不多一個月一個月好我就等你就一個月"},{"start":7696.855,"end":7704.119,"text":"主席謝謝謝謝王世堅委員資訊接著我們請游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在接著我們請李坤成委員資訊謝謝主席我們請次長有請長次長"},{"start":7720.533,"end":7721.773,"text":"我先請教一下有關稅收的問題先看一個報導"},{"start":7751.047,"end":7768.618,"text":"政交稅寫同期的新高這個是蔡英文總統任內最後一個負稅收入的一個月報然後呢不只是只有這個政交稅啦你包含這個眾所稅、政交稅、戶務稅、土增稅等等"},{"start":7769.558,"end":7795.383,"text":"都創下同期的新高反映蔡總統執政8年來經濟成長的結果我覺得是一個非常完美的結尾我們的部長還有次長也都會繼續留下來請教一下這個其實在我剛上任的時候你們也有來跟本席做過說明就是我們付稅都超收然後財政部在113年的付稅"},{"start":7797.873,"end":7818.987,"text":"收入編列還有特別的修正參考的因素把以往的經濟成長率改成其他的指數希望能夠讓預算數跟實際的徵收數相吻合以不超過5%為目標因為我們每一年都付稅都差不多收了這當然是好事代表說台灣的經濟成長所以我們稅收有增加"},{"start":7826.272,"end":7852.303,"text":"但是對於財政單位來講我們認為說你們的預估應該還要再更準確一點因為如果預估再準確一點的話我們在編預算的時候其實掌握說大概可以收多少錢我們可以做多少事情後來這幾年看起來的結果就是說你們比預估的都還要再少一點你們的心態都比較偏保守當然最後這個"},{"start":7854.197,"end":7874.049,"text":"稅收是增加了但是相對應的我們希望說如果你能夠預估的比較準那多出來那些預算其實還可以做更多的事情是謝謝委員指教就是說我完全贊同委員的意見就希望就是說我們的預算的編列能夠更精準"},{"start":7875.369,"end":7888.839,"text":"當然現在從1月到4月看起來就是說像我們的營業稅或者是證交稅或者是綜合稅的確是比原來的預算稅要多但是現在大家知道現在5月份是這個結算申報期"},{"start":7890.04,"end":7919.099,"text":"我們通常在估預算就稅收的這個成長的情形大概就看五月份的結算申報還有另外一個是九月份的站腳申報所以我們大概五月份看結束結束以後大概知道那個方向那個趨勢當然我們當然希望稅稅收當然就是說如果可以的話當然就能夠增加但是也要也要也要合理所以我們也上一次很多委員都有關切這個問題所以我們就成立一個稅收估測小組"},{"start":7920.54,"end":7920.981,"text":"稅收預估指標綜合所得稅"},{"start":7938.699,"end":7954.395,"text":"除了這個本來的經濟成長率把它改成這個基本工資調整還有政策利率調升嘛然後營業稅這部分呢這個經濟成長率呢也這個改成這個民間消費成長率然後在證券交易稅這方面呢"},{"start":7954.755,"end":7955.235,"text":"議員提供的資料"},{"start":7977.647,"end":7978.087,"text":"去年改成這個模型"},{"start":7995.403,"end":8000.609,"text":" 那所以說你今年再估的時候應該會比較準一點嗎?"},{"start":8000.609,"end":8014.064,"text":"這個有時候老實講我跟委員報告齁其實我們的政經的變動真的很快我們本來預期是比如說像去年我們說銀索稅跟中央索稅其實是用去年的稅基是去年的"},{"start":8014.645,"end":8029.779,"text":"那去年的上市櫃其實它的獲利其實是衰退27%的所以我們那時候想說可能今年的稅收就可能會稍微有一點稍微小一點稍微少一點"},{"start":8030.359,"end":8053.141,"text":"那中手稅有類似的狀況因為它受配的股列少了嘛所以可能會減少但是問題是今年的今年的這個經濟成長率是目前的預估是3.43還可能再往上修所以變成就是說今年的像營業稅或者是證交稅像股市好的不行還有像這個剛才提到的這個你們都沒有預期到嗎"},{"start":8055.723,"end":8059.065,"text":"所以你們也沒預期到說今年第一屆經濟成長會這麼高?這就是民進黨執政的成績啊?"},{"start":8079.938,"end":8096.587,"text":"對啦就是說執政好那我們經濟成長率高稅收增加這當然是我們執政成績但是另外一部分就是說你們估啦你們這個預估的指標齁這個要算得準一點啦那所以說齁你剛有提到說齁這個五六月的我們現在是在報稅嘛"},{"start":8097.748,"end":8100.29,"text":"大致的趨勢可以掌握了目前報稅大概是到上禮拜五了,我沒有最新的,大概280萬戶"},{"start":8123.42,"end":8124.921,"text":"五月份申報報稅數字哪時候會出來?"},{"start":8153.749,"end":8180.765,"text":"最慢大概6月因為它還有一個整理期整理期比如5月底5月31日申報那稅數不會那麼快進來所以它會到6月大概6月10幾號6月上旬中旬那時候就會確定了那所以你看我們剛才所有的這一個這個前4個月齁這個有關於說營業稅啦鎮守稅啦這個土增稅什麼都增加啦那預期啦預期稅數也會增加才對啊"},{"start":8182.366,"end":8185.09,"text":"按照前四個月的年增率市長有沒有信心今年的賦稅會"},{"start":8200.329,"end":8225.444,"text":"這個收入要超過這個百分之十我覺得 突然我不再講這個啦 因為為什麼 因為會增加他就自然會增加不是用信心就他會增加他自然 他有那個 我的意思是說我們是看數字啦 當然也不是說有沒有信心啦 我的意思是說你按照這個前一季 這個一到四個月的這個稅收來看 那我們是希望說因為你當初跟我們講就是說 你們這個"},{"start":8227.646,"end":8237.234,"text":"稅收的估算也不要超過5%為一個上限我來講說今年稅收又增加了那是不是可能最後又會超收10%以上?真的現在不確定但是我們在觀察稅收增加是好事我認為對國家整體來講是好事但是對財政部來講"},{"start":8253.854,"end":8261.267,"text":"姑算運輸,這個運算數齁準確也很重要啦好不好是我們來努力,謝謝委員指導謝謝理工程委員質詢,接著我們請武力華委員質詢"},{"start":8284.383,"end":8287.766,"text":"好謝謝主席有請次長有一個必須要公益轉型的問題就是原保地貸款那我在財政委員會也關心很多次那我再重述一次跟一般的土地相比銀行的單保品作為單保品意願是高的"},{"start":8313.007,"end":8329.389,"text":"他的計價貸款方式呢是用市場的建價可是呢輪到原住民的保留地呢因為他有受限所以呢民營的銀行他擔保作為擔保品的意願是不要說低啦是被拒絕的"},{"start":8330.29,"end":8357.775,"text":"那他的計算方式呢如果真的要做的話也是採公告限制所以我在3月4號有問過金管會3月7號呢也問過財政部甚至4月10號辦公室我也邀請了相關的機關來召開一個元寶地建價機制跟銀行放貸方案的研商會議那我今天在這裡其實是要表達感謝因為"},{"start":8359.015,"end":8378.571,"text":"現在是五月五月中但是我已經陸陸續續呢拿到了各個相關部會的一個回應像是金管會他就有回覆已經發函督促銀行要落實公平對待的原則落實不會金融政策"},{"start":8379.732,"end":8403.023,"text":"並且呢也修正金融評鑑的規定如果銀行願意乘坐元寶地貸款會給予加分那再來呢就是除了原民會要針對元寶地的建價要來做調查那內政部呢實家登錄如果能夠增加元寶地的交易資訊就可以提供給銀行作為一個估價的參考"},{"start":8404.564,"end":8420.983,"text":"另外原民會跟農業信保基金合作可以來做原保地的信保提供銀行的一個意願再來就是財政部也就是你們也有給我回函就是特別提到說如果原民會"},{"start":8421.544,"end":8448.404,"text":"這個 呃"},{"start":8449.958,"end":8459.331,"text":"這個到目前是還沒有啦齁還沒有但是我跟委員報告齁這個就航庫來講當然是很注重他的債權的擔保"},{"start":8460.763,"end":8481.084,"text":"所以我覺得剛才講的那個金管婚的幾個意見都很好我覺得很關鍵的一點就是最後一點就是榮保的機制那一定要落實那很重要因為為什麼因為我們榮保我們這元寶地最主要就是他缺乏流動性缺乏流動性所以如果新寶的部分嗎"},{"start":8481.864,"end":8507.964,"text":"對信保那部分他如果可以介入的話那就會降低行庫的他的貸款的風險所以那部分是很重要那現在就看榮寶那邊能不能配合那建架系統也很重要當然因為大家都在等這個建架系統出來才有辦法開始做一個貸款的作業所以這個部分你們有去跟其他的像圓明會啊這些開過會嗎"},{"start":8509.465,"end":8511.646,"text":"我希望近期之內來開一個會好不好因為我們越開會會讓事情的進度越快"},{"start":8524.193,"end":8540.767,"text":"越有可能實現,好不好?所以不管是我們主政,或者是內政部主政,或者是金融會主政,我們都願意來參與。好,謝謝。好,那我們來看一下,剛才你有提到,就是農業金庫信保這個部分,其實它也有回函,它是說請原民會在原民貸款計畫中訂定相關的規範,"},{"start":8545.331,"end":8561.451,"text":"建議成立原住民信用保證機構提高金融機構的承作意願,農業金庫也積極配合辦理原住民的貸款計畫他們是願意來設一個單一窗口來承作原保地的貸款業務"},{"start":8562.472,"end":8586.431,"text":"那再來我們看一下內政部其實也有回函啦因為他們有一個不動產估價的系統那他們有進行這個開始做這個工作那元寶地作為擔保品身帶跟建架那他涉及到資金的用途債權的確保所以呢他說是財政部金管會的全責會依主管機關的規劃期程協助"},{"start":8588.993,"end":8599.758,"text":"顧駕師公會配合來研擬準則所以我還是要再問一次次長就是財政部的角色到底是什麼是不是應該常常的找他們來開會"},{"start":8602.254,"end":8619.75,"text":"這個跟委員報告,其實我覺得內政部還是很重要,因為實價的登錄其實是...上次內政部次長其實質詢台上他說會積極配合辦...我覺得內政部那個要先把那個系統先建立起來嘛但是他們總是希望要有人主導開會啊"},{"start":8621.011,"end":8642.41,"text":"除了開會的話就是看看我們來協調我們跟相關機關來協調那我是不是在這個地方我就做這樣的一個本席就做這樣一個要求就是財政部可不可以跟金管會然後找這些原民會內政部農委會農業部來競速建立原住民保留地貸款建價機制這樣可以嗎"},{"start":8642.85,"end":8666.04,"text":"我們來跟這個相關的部委先做一個溝通了就最後一里路了嗎?大概那個分頭進行的工作我們都已經有幫忙在要求了那你現在就是把粽子拉起來好不好?我是覺得到底是不是我們來出面這是要考慮的那是不是有機會我們也來開個公聽會?"},{"start":8668.761,"end":8673.502,"text":"為什麼財政部出面不太好?原因是什麼?因為我們是公股行庫的股權管理局選手跟裁判會有這個問題"},{"start":8689.626,"end":8702.993,"text":"了解了解謝謝次長那另外就是要請教一下因為去年我們的部長就任的時候他有表示才化法修正以規劃五大原則"},{"start":8704.414,"end":8720.546,"text":"那我現在就是要提的其實我在3月7號財政部質詢的時候我很關心因為這是很多人的陳情我們直轄市的這些園民區啊他們對他們的財政劃分就是合併"},{"start":8721.947,"end":8736.47,"text":"結果呢又回到公法人之後其實他們的財政劃分有點亂啊這個部分需要導正所以我就是很關心這個部分所以想要了解那麼財化法院版的法案何時會提出來"},{"start":8738.579,"end":8760.424,"text":"財務法這一部分我覺得當然要考慮到的因素很多啦就是第一個要考慮中央的財源夠不夠那什麼時候提就要看政策第二個就是看地方我可能會連同剛才的那個部分我們就一起在公聽會的時候來討論可以嗎"},{"start":8762.724,"end":8778.913,"text":"因為我很想知道到底你們對即便法案還沒有提出來但是你們對直轄市人民區的財務分配我想知道你們有什麼樣的規劃方向我簡單的說幾句話就好了就是目前在直轄市改制之後"},{"start":8779.793,"end":8796.557,"text":"我們指甲市裡面原來的鄉鎮市就原民區的鄉鎮市已經改為區嘛那區裡面它其實它的人口它的面積那個都已經在母法都已經做規範了所以等於是說它所有的東西都已經歸到指甲市"},{"start":8797.197,"end":8803.821,"text":"指甲市以後再指甲市再跟這個園民區來做協商我可能會開個公聽會好不好那主席再一個最小的問題因為大家最近都在炒那個清安貸我想跟您確認一下因為我要回覆人家"},{"start":8815.728,"end":8827.549,"text":"因為這個我們看到的這個購屋者的樣本數戰術比有沒有去確認一下這個是個人還是家庭的年收入"},{"start":8829.939,"end":8849.699,"text":"委員的意思是說要評估的時候是不是這個是資料來源廉政中心嘛那大家都在說這些一百萬以下的人占整體61.6啊他們說五年後十年後這些人的房子就會被拍賣了啊因為付不起房貸啊"},{"start":8851.727,"end":8879.656,"text":"我想這個還要看個案的情況那我好啦我有去問廉政中心啦這是個人的收入啦對所以你們財政部是不是應該要去做一個澄清說明啊所以我也希望說你們是不是可以做一個連同保人因為他去貸款的時候你們一定有他們的整個家庭的收入的資料嘛對對對所以你們應該要就這個家庭收入跟房貸餘額去做出一個交叉分析可以嗎"},{"start":8880.596,"end":8881.237,"text":"我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":9530.609,"end":9534.331,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢我請莊部長有請莊部長委員好部長好,剛才去拍這一屆整體內閣的畢業照,對不對?"},{"start":9559.955,"end":9587.206,"text":"今天還是院會陳院長主持的最後一次院會我知道最後一次的畢業照我也拉一段話陳院長在院會上提到的一段話他提到說我們國內的經濟穩健成長我們帶動稅收持續增加可以落實政府各項支出檢討的情況下國家的財政是持續改善這個是在今年4月18日說的"},{"start":9588.827,"end":9604.171,"text":"部長我在五月六號十天前你出國前我有特別提到問到國債中的問題那國債中在今年是達到六兆三千五百二十八億元我們的債務的未償餘額那每個人負擔是27.1萬元"},{"start":9610.573,"end":9620.462,"text":"部長當時你提到說5月之後因為我們會有眾所稅啊所得稅我們陸陸續續會還債那你回答我說國債的問題會逐步趨緩你還有印象嗎部長那你知道今年5月15號我們國庫署發布的國債中的訊息我們現在的國債中達到多少"},{"start":9635.595,"end":9649.831,"text":"委員報告啊最新的我們的5月10號的國債中是到27萬4千元那也跟委員報告部長這是不是歷史新高啊跟委員報告一下啊那個部長我先問你"},{"start":9650.732,"end":9657.974,"text":"過去有達到27.4萬元這麼高的數字嗎?在去年這個時候是27.2萬所以是比去年高好所以這個27.4萬元它是不是一個歷史新高的數字跟委員報告國債中這個部分國債中是涵蓋了長債跟短債我知道不知道有6年以上要還有5年以上要還有一年之內要還的"},{"start":9679.758,"end":9704.643,"text":"那27.4萬元它是不是一個歷史新高的數字你回答我是或不是確實是比往之前的國債中的數字來的高但是也跟委員報告歷年來在上半年的部分國債中都會比較高你要回答我5月6月的時候它就會下降部長因為5月6月有大筆的稅款路上這個我都期待部長不要浪費我的時間部長是"},{"start":9706.283,"end":9722.435,"text":"你聽我講完我都知道你五月要還債但是跟同期比照它就是一個歷史新高的數字對不對對比去年的27.2萬高了2000這個是那一年來過去從來沒有這麼高嘛之前27.1萬是最高27.22然後今年我問你的時候是27.1現在達到27.4萬它是一個歷史新高"},{"start":9736.186,"end":9766.186,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9766.206,"end":9782.458,"text":"但是陳建仁說我們的國家財政狀況越來越好這個陳建仁所說的財政越來越好難道就是陳內閣蔡英文送給台灣人的畢業禮物嗎?今天才去拍畢業照片"},{"start":9783.649,"end":9798.92,"text":"我們的國債中在5月10號5月14號達到歷史的新高這個鐵針針的數字就是寫在眼前你剛回答我每一年5月底我都算你每一年5月底都會還債這個是不管是不是你是部長"},{"start":9799.54,"end":9801.102,"text":"國債中下降而且實際債務比例是26.5%26.5%是非常低的是"},{"start":9820.521,"end":9820.541,"text":"委員"},{"start":9850.229,"end":9859.854,"text":"就是說我覺得我看到今年國債中達到27.4萬元了是蔡政府留下歷史新高的國債記錄這個絕對是一個不及格的成績單委員不是這樣的這不及格的成績單"},{"start":9865.997,"end":9894.676,"text":"數字寫在眼前部長那我第二個問題因為我今天時間很少我還是要問一下你去亞營的事情因為在亞營我關注到就是說在今年在喬治亞舉辦那你也提到就是說強化氣候融資的問題是這個問題其實我非常感興趣那未來我覺得有時間我們還你還在位置上所以我們還有機會好好來討論那部長你擔任部長之後你代表我們參加了幾次的亞營"},{"start":9895.986,"end":9903.153,"text":"第二次。今年是第二次。今年第一次。我們總共有多少,這個會員國裡面有多少成員體在裡頭?有60幾國。60幾個?68個會員國。好,終於搞清楚了。那這個會員國裡面,我們的邦交國有幾個?"},{"start":9918.151,"end":9921.375,"text":"部長,你對於我們參加的名稱你滿不滿意?部長,你不要跟我報告!"},{"start":9933.43,"end":9959.035,"text":"我們這一次要去我們歷年參加WHA參加聯合國相關的組織我們都希望我們的邦交國我們的更友好的國家幫我們發聲我請問你剛才提到對於我們當時在57年的前我們參加的時候我們是創始會員國我們是用中華民國的名義參加這麼多年來今年美國也說要支持我們參加國際的組織或"},{"start":9961.636,"end":9987.866,"text":"我們更名是我們期望的但在這件事情上今年你第二次參加我們做了什麼第一個我們在你有沒有跟會員國你有沒有跟我們邦交國聯繫希望他幫我們提案我們要更名有沒有我們絕對有提我們在理事年會強烈的表達對這件事情的不滿因為我們政府已經今年去年都有我們持續的表達你參加了嗎那你有跟他們溝通嗎做了什麼他們有作證提案嗎"},{"start":9989.307,"end":9992.129,"text":"呃,第一個我覺得這是一個長期性的問題,我們要表達我們的立場。"},{"start":10007.332,"end":10024.574,"text":"我不完全責怪你,所以我今天問說外交部在這件事情上有做什麼事情嗎?如果會員成員體裡面有我們三個包家國今年做了什麼事情我在新聞上媒體上都沒有看到"},{"start":10025.775,"end":10042.747,"text":"連你都答不出來到底裡面會員成員體裡面到底有我們幾個邦交國我對於今年更名這件事情整體我們的行政部門外交部跟您這邊的努力我就會有很多的問號部長因為所有我們參加的這個相關的國際的活動裡面"},{"start":10044.648,"end":10070.263,"text":"我相信亞營在名稱上對我們是最不好的一個名稱我想你非常清楚是理解我想這個我們的態度跟立場在理事年會我們都有強烈的聲明同時我們要更重要的是我們要有實質的交流跟合作讓在我們在亞營裡實質的交流合作我們當然能夠發揮我們的力量但是長期更名是我們重要的目標那是的"},{"start":10070.563,"end":10097.488,"text":"外交部每年喊得那麼大聲無論參加WHA參加國際型的組織但是我非常遺憾的我今年沒有看到任何外交部的活動相關的努力在裡頭所以我不知道外交部到底有做什麼在我從媒體上看到是零是沒有到底我們的邦交國有沒有幫我們發言你連邦交國有三個國家在成員體裡面你都搞不清楚所以我對於這一次"},{"start":10098.8,"end":10114.109,"text":"要更名也好在接下來我們希望邦交國幫我們努力也好我覺得外交部在這件事情上是不及格的層級我們都要一起努力的我想這個部分我們都會繼續做是我們在理事年會也明確的表達我們的立場跟態度"},{"start":10114.349,"end":10115.289,"text":"接下來我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":10145.46,"end":10150.924,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長有請莊部長委員好來部長你好我剛才提莊部長我講得很慢啊因為你已經辭掉了你中辭了對不對"},{"start":10166.236,"end":10192.821,"text":"今天我們有簽名總辭總辭啦所以你就不是部長啦那個政次也不是啦那個阮清華也政次是不是阮清華是不是政次是我們政務次長對啊政務官通通辭掉啦從現在到520之前你是應該稱呼你莊翠穎女士或者莊翠穎小姐還比較貼切你今天是社會賢達人士來被尋"},{"start":10195.956,"end":10217.195,"text":"是這樣子的華裏上制度上是這樣子的你現在開始你總辭了請辭待命了所以你現在來講的話照理說部長聽好這句話喔部長從現在到520正式舉手宣誓之前你不能簽公文勒"},{"start":10219.776,"end":10229.465,"text":"報告,我們的任期是到5月19啊,520以後是新的政府,是是是今天有簽,但是應該還有不同的生肖日期吧生肖日期什麼時候?到5月19啊,對啊"},{"start":10244.346,"end":10248.489,"text":"所以你還是部長就對了?應該是啊那稱呼你部長呢?我稱呼我想委員我們其實都彼此都很尊重是的這個總辭給你今天總辭生肖五一九這也是糊弄人家所以這個老實講我們選舉制度太有問題了"},{"start":10266.189,"end":10269.131,"text":"臺北China臺北China"},{"start":10297.775,"end":10302,"text":"連WHA的前列台北都不讀"},{"start":10303.188,"end":10315.49,"text":"台北恰那正式把我們矮化為一個地方的城市而已請問你有沒有正式抗議有沒有你怎麼抗議你怎麼抗議抗議怎麼講請問你有沒有提案沒有提案吶還好是"},{"start":10329.633,"end":10329.853,"text":"當然到目前為止"},{"start":10345.543,"end":10372.159,"text":"你要知道你去google一下你出國之前社會大眾對你期待很高喔希望你第一個抗議第二個要懲罰要去fight一下輸不快快表決輸不快快但是你連這個動作都沒有啊你做什麼我胡攏大街啊你說我要去爭取權益連畢業證明夫我們最少能夠接受就潛逸是台北"},{"start":10373.727,"end":10379.592,"text":"呃跟委員報告齁當然這個部分齁我們的呃應該理解我們的國在國際處境上我們在一個正式組織裡面參與然後實際的做交流跟合作發揮我們的一個力量以及對於我們台灣對社會國際社會的貢獻能夠展現出來我覺得這是更實質的交流"},{"start":10401.51,"end":10428.29,"text":"國際場合那個真槍實彈不是在這裡但是我們還是要表達我們的立場跟態度,態度跟立場依然是要表達的你講老半天就是提案都沒有提案不長你失職你失職你好歹要有人幫你提案然後去fight輸沒有關係對不對我們輸沒有關係但是要fight你連fight都沒有fight這個你失職我們在看了來起來報稅記"},{"start":10431.721,"end":10451.881,"text":"我們看到到現在為止,政交稅增加了134億,總索稅增加了66億,牌照稅增加30億,黃幣合一稅增加了52億,四個月加一加,今年最少稅收增加1000億,最少增加1000億,我這樣算法你同意嗎?"},{"start":10453.749,"end":10479.556,"text":"因為整個報稅在5月跟6月的大筆稅款會進來所以真正可以增加多少可能要到7月以後會稍微明瞭一點那9月還有數字用4月來推估啊我跟你加一加的話就是250億左右因為它佔的比例還比較在我們整年的稅收裡面不是大還不是佔比比較高的我低估啦1000億以上又超震的"},{"start":10481.277,"end":10500.692,"text":"那今年的因為徵交稅增加的確實是因為我們徵交稅我們在編預算的時候是日成交量是3500億來估的那現在因為都超過3500億所以徵交稅的部分是有確實有增加徵交稅調教了條件在5年嗎你沒有反對嗎他不讓你們稅收增加這麼多"},{"start":10502.906,"end":10519.991,"text":"這個部分因為到年底的時候當沖降稅這個部分會要再做一個檢討所以我們會再跟金管會這個部分來做一個檢討我給你建議啦我給你建議那是那個你現在說噢有人說這個當沖都那麼了極不應該鼓勵他們好"},{"start":10521.469,"end":10548.123,"text":"這個就類似臭煙一樣啊臭煙有害健康但是還是賣煙啊所以在賣煙裡面上面寫一個臭煙有害健康你要買自己同樣你們就花一個金魚說當中容量錢他要當中他自己付出這個是可以考慮的啊但是你稅收增加這麼多我看這個今年的增加稅又可以增加一千億喔按這樣算法可以增加一千億喔"},{"start":10550.607,"end":10577.867,"text":"我想委員的意見我們會一併納入考慮我這個提議可以嗎?因為 善立的建言說這個類似草菸的那個概念說當初平均都了解假如這個是真的我現在正在跑這個資料我是打一個問號當初是平均都了解按你們自己負責"},{"start":10579.69,"end":10593.21,"text":"對稅收有幫助這不是兩全其名嗎?想一下喔來我們再看一個東西喔你們目前啊對於身心障礙者有特別扣除了20.7萬"},{"start":10596.186,"end":10615.435,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10616.156,"end":10625.946,"text":"我算過稅損不會太多大概留不起二三十億但是可以照顧這麼多重大的傷病卡的患者加速負擔都很重的啦"},{"start":10631.903,"end":10632.323,"text":"你可以考慮嗎?"},{"start":10632.323,"end":10650.548,"text":"你可以考慮嗎?這個部分可能要審慎的來考量一下其他的病症要包含到什麼因為目前來說是對於有身心障礙者有特別扣除而但其他的病症要到什麼樣的一個範圍以及是不是有這個必要我們再來要必須要審慎評估"},{"start":10652.709,"end":10673.257,"text":"我所了解大的醫院像台大龍總那個住房的三分之一是癌症的那個癌症的藥非常貴很多是自費的癌症應該納進來但是相關的醫療支出其實在所得裡面是透出的你們如果對這個事情無動於衷我來修法"},{"start":10674.062,"end":10696.707,"text":"把這個這個身心障礙者特別扣除了我就加一個身心障礙者及重大疾病者這樣子使用範圍就大了我覺得這部分是應該認真考慮的最後一個因為我時間到了最後一個小問題喔也是很重要台美經濟倡議台納要避免雙重課稅掌握進度怎麼樣"},{"start":10697.862,"end":10722.359,"text":"跟委員報告這個臺美經貿倡議裡面跟雙重課稅其實是兩件事也就是臺美避免雙重課稅的法案目前在參議院的部分外交部以及駐美代表處也持續的跟美方在溝通這個時間上說真的有一點不太確定為什麼因為我們的法案是包裹在美國家庭裡面"},{"start":10723.82,"end":10736.469,"text":"今年底有沒有可能我們希望今年底可以完成為什麼因為他們也有選舉的因素要表亮選舉他就會過啦我認為會過啦那就是今年年底啦他選舉今年年底選啊如果過的話我們要不要修法就法律的部分我們要不要修法我們不需要修我們是透過雙方換文來確定那這樣我們就可以玩在國內就生效換文確定難道不要經過立法院嗎"},{"start":10751.198,"end":10777.848,"text":"這個部分在相關的《稅則稅法》還有《稅捐基金法》裡面都有授權規定了就你們的行政命令就可以完成法律完成了這個現在來講像馬斯克的STAR LINK2021就開始來這個就是外面境外電商啊很多地方要落地不落地等等這個有沒有幫助啊如果能夠避免雙重課稅"},{"start":10780.408,"end":10791.191,"text":"這個部分我是不是請我們國財司司長來做說明?因為基本上我們租稅協定是解決雙重課稅所得稅的雙重課稅所以如果這個業者或者是人民有在我們跨境間的雙重課稅的問題的時候租稅協定才會使用"},{"start":10807.503,"end":10824.438,"text":"我 我就一句話啦齁 這個境外電商在台灣其實現在是很發展的非常的新貌但是稅的問題一直是很多人關心的這些 這些其實都基本上都"},{"start":10825.359,"end":10846.651,"text":"接近逃稅的都不課稅的你們課不到的這個你們要想辦法好不好好好謝謝大使館委員的質詢謝謝委員指教接著我們請侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員侯孟楷委員不在鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員不在楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在何欣群委員何欣群委員何欣群委員不在陳廷福委員陳廷福委員陳廷福委員也不在接著我們請羅明財委員質詢"},{"start":10854.412,"end":10856.214,"text":"這趟去中南美有沒有什麼收穫?"},{"start":10881.789,"end":10898.719,"text":"到中美洲的開發銀行卡貝的我們出席理事年會那這一次來說其實是有蠻大的一個不同點第一個因為他的總裁在去年12月是新上任的Centris哥斯大黎加級那對於卡貝的裡面相關的治理改革"},{"start":10899.298,"end":10913.362,"text":"以及財務的強化都提出了方案然後我們也同時盤點在去年理事年會裡面所提出的一個治理改革措施的落實情形以及我們也跟總裁在會前會我們去討論我們希望他們在在治理方面要能夠更透明然後對貸款的部分要能夠去除了貸錢的審核之外貸貸後管理更要知道資金的一個用途"},{"start":10925.446,"end":10942.6,"text":"這個也是我們國人以及國際組織裡面非常重視的一個議題所以我們希望新任總裁再有一些新的做法讓可貝的一個財務能力更好能真正能夠促進中美洲區域經濟的一個發展讓需要協助的國家能夠更好更進步"},{"start":10943.3,"end":10964.628,"text":"辛苦了,看到你神采奕奕希望對我們中華民國來講有很大的收穫其實不容易了,在國際的生存空間當中如果沒一位部長或是財經的首長甚至經濟部長等等的位階只要認真做、用心做"},{"start":10965.268,"end":10991.453,"text":"都可能會有意想不到對未來發展長遠的變化跟影響就好像我看到臺灣我們大概這20年來不容易你看AI晶片以及server等等周邊的沒有前人重數就沒有後人乘量"},{"start":10994.542,"end":11003.774,"text":"那個之前跟沈榮金副院長大概深深地聊了一下我真的希望他能出一本書"},{"start":11005.322,"end":11029.369,"text":"包括現在全世界所有AI的前三名的最大咖包括Jason Huang等等居然都是臺灣人所以臺灣的驕傲奠定在這樣一個大家共同關心的基礎帶給臺灣未來的影響是10年20年的所以希望部長也是身負中任有機會"},{"start":11030.7,"end":11059.06,"text":"出去的話也可以帶一些封鎖的果實回來今天進口稅則又來了什麼每一年好像都是好大的一本那這個究竟我們這一次是跟哪一個國家可是我們事實上經濟的這個往來那個量並不多啊"},{"start":11062.096,"end":11081.181,"text":"那這個是我們邦交國嗎?是不是我們跟每一個邦交國都必須要做那麼厚厚一本的這個進口稅則的修正每年欸我看每年都要辦每一次都是要厚厚一本好大一本"},{"start":11085.103,"end":11102.178,"text":"各部會都在努力跟其他國家之間然後有一些經濟合作的協議然後促進貿易的一個發展那如果有經濟合作期對關稅減讓的部分那我們要履行我們的減讓的一個措施所以必須要去修海關進口稅則那這個稅則裡面可能項目比如說有3000多項"},{"start":11105.621,"end":11113.735,"text":"那所以看起來就厚厚的一本 那就很厚厚的所以對我們邦交國我們大概都會進行這樣的一些稅則的修正嗎對 那因為那個經濟部在跟他們談的時候都會一定會討論到 是"},{"start":11118.646,"end":11119.106,"text":"謝謝委員的支持 謝謝"},{"start":11138.358,"end":11150.326,"text":"謝謝劉明財委的質詢好今日發言今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢現在進行海關進口稅務稅則部分稅則修正草案"},{"start":11153.7,"end":11177.536,"text":"這處理預計宣讀100分鐘請醫事人員宣讀宣讀完畢後下午1點15分進行協商同時呢我們開放用餐也請各位官員就地用餐因為下午還要進行協商海關稅則無關的這個法案無關的這一個官員可以先行離席謝謝"},{"start":11184.338,"end":11193.157,"text":"行政院函請審議海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案檢表第一章活動物修正增注一及增注二"},{"start":11194.301,"end":11202.067,"text":"修正第1015節下1110號、1210號、1310號、1410號、1510號、9410號及第9910號等七項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第三章魚類、甲殼類、軟體類及其他水產無脊椎動物修正第0301節下9220號、9910號"},{"start":11224.588,"end":11224.728,"text":"第0302決下3300號、3500號、8910號、8920號、8930號、8951號、8952號、8960號、8970號、8981號、8982號、8989號、911號、9200號、9910號、9920號、9990號"},{"start":11250.56,"end":11250.72,"text":"第0303結下4100號、4200號、4300號、4400號、5990號"},{"start":11260.202,"end":11281.918,"text":"八一零零號 八九八九號 九一二零號 九九一零號 九九九零號 第零三零四節下 四九一零號 四九二零號 四九三零號 四九九零號 五九一零號 五九二零號 五九九零號 八七零零號 八九一零號 八九五零號"},{"start":11282.677,"end":11297.099,"text":"八九六零號 八九九零號 九六九零號 九九九零號 第零三零五節下二零一零號 二零二零號 五九六零號 七二零零號 七九零零號"},{"start":11298.2,"end":11298.54,"text":"第0306節下1112號1429號3310號3510號3610號3910號第0307節下1110號4310號4320號7110號"},{"start":11315.698,"end":11340.035,"text":"八一一零號九一一零號第零三零八節下一一一零號一九二一號一九二二號一九三零號一九四零號二一一一號三零一一號九零一一號及第零三零九一零零零號等69項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":11341.769,"end":11352.319,"text":"第四章乳製品秦旦天然蜜未列明實用動物產品修正第0407節下1110號及1910號等二項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":11360.066,"end":11364.791,"text":"第五章未列明動物產品 修正第0501 結下 0010號 0020號 第0502 結下 1010號 1020號 9011號 9019號 9020號 第0505 結下 1000號"},{"start":11383.857,"end":11407.418,"text":"五九一零號五九二零號五九三零號第零五零六節下九零一九號九零二零號九零三零號第零五零七節下九零一一號九零一二號九零一三號九零一四號九零一五號九零一六號九零一七號九零二三號九零二四號九零二五號"},{"start":11409.019,"end":11409.339,"text":"9026、9027、9032、9091、9092、9093第0508節下0020、0030、0040第0511節下1000、9110、9191、9910、9940、9950、9991"},{"start":11437.139,"end":11452.588,"text":"992號及9999號等42項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第6章活樹及其他植物、求菌、根及類似品、切花及裝飾用業。修正第0601節下1000號、2010號、2030號、第0602節下1010號、"},{"start":11462.574,"end":11480.953,"text":"一零九零號九零一零號九零九一號第零零六零四節下二零一一號及九零一一號等九項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第七章食用蔬菜及部分根菜與塊金菜類"},{"start":11482.134,"end":11486.077,"text":"修正增助一及增助二修正第0701、1000號第0712、9021號第0713、1010號、1090號3310號、3410號、3510號、3920號5010號、6010號、9010號第0714、3010號"},{"start":11510.337,"end":11515.524,"text":"4010號、4020號、9011號、9012號、9021號、9022號、9091號、9092號等二十項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第八章實用果實及堅果"},{"start":11529.246,"end":11543.66,"text":"甘菊屬果實或甜瓜之外皮 修正第0801 1100號之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹爾MH4用之稅率 第九章咖啡、茶、馬帶茶及香料 修正第0901 結下1100號、1200號、2100號、2200號、9010號、9020號"},{"start":11552.449,"end":11558.312,"text":"第09042110號第0906接下1100號1900號2000號第0907接下1000號2000號第0908接下1100號1200號2100號2200號3100號3200號第0910接下2000號3000號及"},{"start":11582.167,"end":11593.513,"text":"9910等21項之第二人稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第10章 鼓勵修正第1002結下1000號900號1003結下1000號900號1005結下1000號900號第1007結下1000號及"},{"start":11610.691,"end":11616.475,"text":"第11章製粉工業產品麥芽、澱粉、橘糖、麵筋修正第1106、3010號第1108節下1410號、1420號及第1109、0010號等四項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":11640.063,"end":11643.579,"text":"第12章由料種子及含油脂果實"},{"start":11645.958,"end":11655.982,"text":"雜項鼓勵種子及果實工業用或藥用植物除草及飼料修正第1201結下1000號9000號第1203 0000號第1204 0000號第1205結下1000號9000號第1206 0000號第1207結下1000號"},{"start":11675.902,"end":11694.158,"text":"二一零零號 二九零零號 三零零零號 五零零零號 六零零零號 七零一零號 九一零零號 九九一零號 九九二零號 九九三零號 九九九零號 第一二零九向下 接下一零零零號"},{"start":11695.563,"end":11710.412,"text":"二一零零號 二二零零號 二三零零號 二四零零號 二五零零號 二九零零號 三零零零號 九一零零號 九九零零號 第一二一一節夏 二零四零號"},{"start":11711.032,"end":11734.582,"text":"2050、300000、4000、500000、9011、9012、9013、9016、9017、9018、9019、9023、9024、9025、9029、9030、9031、9034"},{"start":11734.787,"end":11754.957,"text":"9035、9036、9037、9038、9039、9040、9041、9042、9043、9044、9045、9046、9047、9048、9049、9050"},{"start":11754.957,"end":11778.985,"text":"90519052905390549057905990609062906390649065906790689069907090719072907390749091"},{"start":11779.468,"end":11785.77,"text":"第12130000號第1214節下1000號及9000號等87項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第13章重期植物交數值及其他植物枝葉及萃取物修正第1301節下9010號9021號9022號9090號"},{"start":11808.888,"end":11833.75,"text":"第130二節下一一零零號及三九九零號等六項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第十四章編節用植物性材料未列明植物產品修正增注一修正第一四零一節下一零零零號二零零號九零零號第一四零四節下二零零零號"},{"start":11835.247,"end":11843.109,"text":"9030號9040號9050號9059號及9080號等9項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第15章動植物或微生物油脂及其分解物調製食用油脂動植物蠟修正第1502節下1010號1020號9000號"},{"start":11862.847,"end":11888.995,"text":"第一五零四節下一零零零號二零零零號三零零號第一五零五零零九零號第一五零九節下二零零零號三零零零號四零零零號九零零零號第一五一一節下一零零零號九零零號第一五一二節下二一零零號二九零零號"},{"start":11891.158,"end":11915.138,"text":"一五一三結下一一零零號一九零零號二一一零號二一二零號二九一零號二九二零號第一五一五結下一一零零號一九零零號升零零號九零一零號九零二零號第一五一六二零一二號第一五一八結下零零一零號零零"},{"start":11916.949,"end":11919.636,"text":"0020號及0030號等30項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":11925.066,"end":11934.614,"text":"第16章,肉、魚類、甲殼類、軟體類、其他水產無脊椎動物或昆蟲等之調製品。修正第1604節下1410號、1420號、1910號、1930號、1940號及1990號等六項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。"},{"start":11947.421,"end":11964.533,"text":"第17章 糖及糖果 修正第1703 截下1090號及9090號等二項之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第18章 可可及可可製品 修正第1801截下0010號 0020號 第1802 0000號 第1803截下1000號 2000號"},{"start":11975.39,"end":11997.083,"text":"第一八零四零零零零號及第一八零五零零零號等七項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第二十一章雜項調製食品,修正第二一零三一零一零號之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第二十二章飲料、酒類及醋"},{"start":12000.29,"end":12002.611,"text":"修正第2201 結下9010號第220300000號第2207 結下2010號"},{"start":12011.601,"end":12037.727,"text":"二零九零號第二二零八節下二零一零號二零九零號三零零零號四零零零號五零零零號六零零零號七零零零號九零二零號九零四零號九零五零號九零六零號及九零七零號等十七項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第二十三章食品工業產製過程之殘渣及廢品調製動物飼料"},{"start":12041.809,"end":12049.944,"text":"修正第二三零一節下一零零零號二零一零號二零九零號二三零二節下一零零零號"},{"start":12051.55,"end":12072.98,"text":"五零一零號五零二零號第二三零三節下二零一零號二零二零號二零三零號三零零號二三零四節下零零一零號零零九零號二三零五節下零零一零號零零九零號二三零六節下一零零零號二零零零號"},{"start":12074.833,"end":12077.314,"text":"300000號、4100號、4900號、500000號、6000號、9010號、9090號、2308000號、2309結下9010號、9021號、9022號、9023號、9030號及9090號等30項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":12101.138,"end":12111.942,"text":"第25章 鹽 硫磺 泥土及石料 石膏料 石灰及水泥修正第25010010號 第250200000號 第250300000號 第2504結下1000號 9000號 第2505結下1000號 9000號 第2506結下1000號"},{"start":12129.417,"end":12157.09,"text":"二零零零號第二五零七節下零零一零號零零二零號第二五零八節下一零零零號三零零零號四零零零號五零零零號六零零零號七零零零號二五零九零零零號二五零一零節下一零零零號二零零零號二五一一節下一零零零號二零零零號"},{"start":12158.769,"end":12158.929,"text":"第2512節下0010號、0091號、0099號、2513節下1000號、2010號、2020號、2030號、2091號、2092號、2093號、2514、0011號"},{"start":12179.622,"end":12207.554,"text":"第二五一五截下一一一零號一一二零號一一二一一二一一號一二二一號二零一零號二零二一號第二五一六截下一一零零號一二零一零號二零一零號二零二一號九零一零號九零二一號第二五一七四九零零號第二五一八截下一零零零號二零零零號"},{"start":12209.127,"end":12234.509,"text":"第二五一九節下一零零零號九零零零號第二五二零節下一零一零號一零二零號二零零號二五二一零零零號二五二二節下一零零零號二零零零號三零零號第二五二三節下一零九零號二九九零號三零零零號"},{"start":12235.64,"end":12236.44,"text":"9090號,第2525接下1000號,2000號,3000號,2526接下1000號,2000號,25280000號,2529接下1000號,"},{"start":12258.993,"end":12286.095,"text":"二一零零號、二二零零號、三零零零號、第二五二三節下一零一零號、一零二零號、九零四零號、九零七一號、九零七二號等七十六項之第二欄稅率、修正馬紹爾MHC用資稅率、第二十六章礦石、榮渣及礦灰、修正第二六零一節下一一零零號、一二零零號、二零零零號、"},{"start":12287.864,"end":12288.564,"text":"第2602-0000號 第2603-0000號 第2604-0000號 第2605-0000號 第2606-0010號 0020號 0030號 0090號 第2607-0000號 第2608-0000號 第2609-0000號 第2610-0000號 第2611-0000號"},{"start":12317.335,"end":12318.996,"text":"第2612結下1000號2000號第2613結下1000號9000號第26140000號第2615結下1000號9000號第2616結下1000號9010號9020號9090號第2617結下1000號"},{"start":12345.828,"end":12371.664,"text":"9011、9019、9090、26180000、26190000、2620-1100、1900、2100、2900、3000、4000、6000、9100、9990、2621-1000"},{"start":12372.381,"end":12377.864,"text":"9010號及9090號等45項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MHC用資稅率。第27章礦物燃料、礦油及其蒸餾產品含瀝青物質礦蠟修正第2701節下1100號、1200號、1900號、1200號、第2702節下1000號、"},{"start":12401.072,"end":12428.649,"text":"二零零零號第二七零三零零零號第二七零四零零一零號第二七零七節下一零零零號二零零零號三零零零號四零零零號五零零零號第二七零九節下零零一零號零零九零號第二七一零節下一二一零號一二二零號一二三零號一九一一號一九一九號"},{"start":12429.735,"end":12458.097,"text":"1920、1931、1939、1941、1949、1951、1952、1961、1962、1963、1964、1965、1966、1967、1968、19902010、2021、2030、2040、9900"},{"start":12459.127,"end":12486.161,"text":"第二七一一節下一一零零號一二零零號一三零零號一四零零號一九一零號二一零零號及第二七一六零零零零號等四十七項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第二十八章無機化學品貴金屬稀土金屬放射性元素及其同位素之有機及無機化合物"},{"start":12489.201,"end":12489.741,"text":"修正第2801結下1000號、2000號、3010號、3020號、2802、0000號、2804結下1000號、2100號、2900號、3000號、4010號、4090號、5010號、5020號、6110號、6120號、6190號"},{"start":12518.404,"end":12542.995,"text":"690070008000900028051110012001900301030203090400028111921"},{"start":12543.302,"end":12572.688,"text":"192219402210229028141000200028181000200028201000282300102825501050209020"},{"start":12573.001,"end":12574.922,"text":"9030號第2827結下5110號5120號第2829結下9020號9030號第2836結下2010號2090號9200號第2843 9000號第2844結下1010號1090號"},{"start":12600.816,"end":12624.245,"text":"二零零零號 三零零零號 四一零零號 四二零零號 四三零零號 四四零零號 五零零零號 第2845節下 一零零零號 二零零零號 三零零零號 四零零零號 九零零零號 第2846節下 一零零零號"},{"start":12625.563,"end":12631.666,"text":"9010號第2849結下2000號9030號第2853結下9012號9020號9030號9040號及9050號等73項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第29章有機化學產品修正第2901結下1010號1020號"},{"start":12655.066,"end":12684.208,"text":"一零三零號一零四零號一零九零號二一零零號二二零零號二三零零號二四一零號二四二零號二九一零號二九二零號二九九零號第二九零二接下來一一零零號一九零零號二零零零號三零零零號四一零零號四二零零號四三零零號四四零零號五零零零號"},{"start":12686.075,"end":12714.119,"text":"六零零零號七零零零號九零一零號九零二一號九零二二號九零九零號第二九零三節下一五零零號六九一零號八九一零號八九二零號九九一零號第二九零五節下一一零零號五九一零號五九二零號第二九零六一三二零號第二九零八節下一一零零號"},{"start":12715.265,"end":12737.483,"text":"1910、1920、2909、1910、1920、1990、3020、3030、3040、4920、2910、1000"},{"start":12737.881,"end":12761.809,"text":"二零零零號第二九一四二九一零號第二九一五節下二四零零號六零零零號七零一一號第二九一六節下一五一零號三四一零號三四二零號三四三零號三九一一號第二九一七三九二零號第二九一八三零零零號"},{"start":12763.919,"end":12765.68,"text":"第2922節下4210號、4920號、4930號第2924、2910號第2925節下1910號、1920號、1930號第2930節下4010號、9020號、9030號、9040號第2931、2010號"},{"start":12790.103,"end":12805.482,"text":"第二九三二一九二零號第二九三三結下一一零零號三九二零號三九三零號五二零零號五三零零號五四零零號九九二零號第二九三四結下九一一零號"},{"start":12806.647,"end":12822.654,"text":"9930、9940、9950、9960、2936、2100、2200、2300、2400、2500、2600、2700、"},{"start":12822.934,"end":12850.097,"text":"二八零零號 二九一零號 二九二零號 二九三零號 二九四零號 二九五零號 二九九零號 九零一零號 九零二零號 九零九零號 第二九三七節下一一零零號 一二零零號 一九零零號 二一一零號 二一二零號 二二零零號 二三零零號 二九一零號 二九九零號"},{"start":12851.721,"end":12877.818,"text":"五零零零號九零零零號第二九三八節下一零零零號九零零零號第二九三九節下一一零零號一九一零號一九二零號二零零零號三零一零號三零二零號三零九零號四一零零號四二零零號四三零零號四四零零號四五零零號四九零零號"},{"start":12879.377,"end":12894.991,"text":"5100、5910、5920、5930、5990、6100、6200、6300、6900、7200、7900、8000"},{"start":12896.343,"end":12914.198,"text":"第二九四零零零零號第二九四一節下一零一零號一零二零號一零三零號一零四零號一零九零號二零零零號三零一零號三零九零號四零一零號四零二零號五零一零號"},{"start":12915.419,"end":12932.39,"text":"五零九零號九零一零號及九零九零號等一五五項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率修正第二九一六一六零零號之第一欄稅率第三十章醫藥品修正曾祝山"},{"start":12937.082,"end":12938.523,"text":"修正第3001節下2000號9010號9020號9030號9040號9090號3002節下1200號1300號1400號1500號4100號4200號4900號5100號5900號9000號"},{"start":12962.452,"end":12962.812,"text":"第3003 結下1010號、1020號、2000號、3100號、3900號、4100號、4200號、4300號、4900號、6000號、9010號、9020號、9030號、9040號、9050號、9060號"},{"start":12984.087,"end":13005.845,"text":"90799092909390949094、9094、9099、3004、1010、1020、2000、3100、3200、3900、4100、4200、4300、4900、4500"},{"start":13006.954,"end":13025.316,"text":"6010號9010號9020號9030號9040號9050號9069號9071號9072號9080號9091號9092號9099號"},{"start":13025.543,"end":13025.723,"text":"第3005節下1010號、1020號、1090號、9010號、9020號、9030號、9040號、9090號、3006節下1010號、1020號、1031號"},{"start":13042.091,"end":13056.489,"text":"一零三九號、三零零零號、四零一零號、四零二零號、五零一零號、五零二零號、六零零零號、九三零零號等八十項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":13057.864,"end":13061.146,"text":"第31章肥六 修正第3101節下0010號0020號0090號第3102節下1010號1020號1090號2110號2190號2900號3010號3090號4000號5010號5090號6000號8000號"},{"start":13086.69,"end":13090.713,"text":"1900日第3103屆下1100日1900日1900日第3104屆下2010日2090日3010日3090日9010日9090日第3105屆下1000日2000日"},{"start":13111.434,"end":13125.63,"text":"三零零零號、四零零零號、五一零零號、五九零零號、六零零零號及九零零零號等三十四項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":13130.199,"end":13144.215,"text":"第32章 柔格或染色用萃取物,柔酸及其衍生物,染料,顏料及其他著色料,漆類及凡粒水,油灰及其他灰泥、墨類,修正第3201節下1000號、2000號、9010號、9020號"},{"start":13152.023,"end":13152.303,"text":"9090號第3202結下1000號9010號9020號9030號第3203結下0011號0019號0021號"},{"start":13167.039,"end":13170.301,"text":"0022號、0029號、0030號、第3204、1210號、第3206、1100號、第3215、1110號及1910號等19項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MHC用之稅率。第33章 金流及數值狀物質"},{"start":13189.423,"end":13194.407,"text":"香水化妝品或罐洗用品 修正第3301 截下1200號、1300號、1900號、2400號、2500號、2910號、2920號、2990號、3000號、9011號、9090號、第3302 截下1090號、"},{"start":13213.171,"end":13213.331,"text":"9010號、第3303、000號、第3304、1000號、2000號、3010號、3020號、3090號、9110號、9120號、9190號、9910號、9920號、9990號、第3305、1000號、2000號、3000號、"},{"start":13241.058,"end":13248.139,"text":"9010號9020號9090號第3306節下1010號1020號1090號2000號及9000號等36項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第34章肥皂有機界面活性劑洗涤劑潤滑劑人造蠟配置蠟擦光或除垢劑"},{"start":13271.322,"end":13282.527,"text":"蠟燭及類似品素型用軟膏牙科用蠟以及石膏為基料之牙科用劑修正第3401 結下1100號1900號2010號2090號3000號第3404 結下2000號9010號9030號9090號第3405 結下1000號"},{"start":13300.774,"end":13318.687,"text":"二零零零號、三零零零號、四零零零號、九零零零號、第三四零六零零零號、第三四零七節下零零一零號、零零二零號及零零九零號等十八項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MHC用資稅率"},{"start":13320.953,"end":13340.979,"text":"第35章蛋白狀物質改質澱粉膠酵素修正第35069130號之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第36章炸藥煙火品火柴引火合金可燃製品修正第3604節下1010號1020號9010號9020號"},{"start":13351.203,"end":13353.224,"text":"9030號9040號及9090號等7項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":13377.645,"end":13383.129,"text":"第37章感光或電影用品修正第37禮儀截下11000號、2000號、3000號、9100號、9990號、第3702截下1000號、3110號、3190號、3200號、3900號、4110號、4120號、4190號、4210號、4290號、4310號、4390號、4410號、4420號、4490號"},{"start":13405.666,"end":13406.767,"text":"5200號、5300號、5410號、5490號、5510號、5590號、5610號、5690號、9600號、9700號、9800號、第三704結下0010號、0020號、0090號、第三705結下0000號、第三706結下1031號、1032號、1033號、1040號、1051號、1052號、1053號、1060號、1071號"},{"start":13433.149,"end":13434.27,"text":"1072號1073號1080號1091號1092號1093號1099號9031號9032號9039號9041號9042號9049號9090號第三七零七節下9010號9020號9030號及9090號等62項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹偶而未取適用之稅率"},{"start":13456.77,"end":13461.274,"text":"第38章雜項化學產品 修正珍珠二 修正第3802 結下1000號 9012號 第3803 0000號 第3807 0020號 第3808 5910號 9312號 第3811 1100號 1900號 2100號 2900號 第3818結下0010號 0090號"},{"start":13481.289,"end":13481.429,"text":"第3822-1100-1210-1300-1910第3823-1100-1920-1930-1990-7000-3820-8210-9911-9912-9913-9916-9921-9922-9923-9926-9934-9942-9943-9952"},{"start":13508.626,"end":13509.126,"text":"第29章塑膠及其製品"},{"start":13519.249,"end":13548.713,"text":"三九零二一零零零號第三九零三一九零零號第三九零七結下七零零零號九九二零號第三九一九九零二零號第三九二零六二二號第三九二三一零一零號結下第三九二三結下一零一零號四零一零號第三九二六結下九零一一號九零一二號九零一三號九零一十號九零一五號九零一六號九零二一號九零二二號九零二三號九零三一號九零三"},{"start":13550.774,"end":13561.017,"text":"9號9049號及9090號等21項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹偉MH適用之稅率第40章向交集其製品修正第4001節下1000號2100號2200號2900號3000號第4011節下3000號7090號第4013節下9020號及"},{"start":13573.522,"end":13582.65,"text":"9030等9項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第41章身皮毛皮除外及皮革修正第4101節下2000號5000號9000號第4102節下1000號2100號2900號第4103節下2000號3000號9000號第4104節下110"},{"start":13596.781,"end":13619.702,"text":"一一一零號一一九零號一九一零號一九九零號四一一零號四九一零號第四一零五一零零號第四一零六結下二一零零號三一一零號三一九零號四零一零號四零二零號九一一零號九一九零號第四一零七結下一一一零號一二一零號及一九一零號等二十六項之第二欄稅率"},{"start":13620.723,"end":13628.045,"text":"修正馬紹爾MH使用之稅率第43章毛皮與人造毛皮及其製品修正第4301節下1000號、3000號、6000號、8000號、9000號第4302節下1900號、2000號及3000號等"},{"start":13638.889,"end":13647.952,"text":"等八項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH施用之稅率,第44章目及目之品目探,修正第4401節下1100號、1200號、2100號、2200號、3100號、3200號、3900號、4100號、4900號、第4402節下1000號、2000號、9000號、"},{"start":13662.898,"end":13663.979,"text":"第4403 截下 1100、1200、2100、2200、2300、2400、2500、2600、4100、4200、4900、9100、9300、9400、9500、9600"},{"start":13679.449,"end":13679.77,"text":"告知委員會議"},{"start":13699.091,"end":13723.993,"text":"一九零零號 二一零零號 二二零零號 二三零零號 二五零零號 二六零零號 二七零零號 二八零零號 二九零零號 九一零零號 九二零零號 九三零零號 九四零零號 九五零零號 九六零零號 九七零零號 九九零零號 第四四零八截下一零零零號 三一零零號 三九九零號 九零九零號 第四四零九截下一零零零號 二一零零號 二二零零號"},{"start":13725.114,"end":13745.63,"text":"二九零零號第四四一零結下一一零零號一二零零號一九一零號一九九零號九零零號第四四一一結下一二一零號一二九零號一三零號一三九零號一四一零號一四九零號九二一零號九二九零號九三一零號九三九零號九四一零號九四九零號"},{"start":13747.847,"end":13749.488,"text":"第44結下1011號3910號3920號4910號5910號5920號9910號第4413結下0010號0090號第4414結下1000號9000號第4415結下1000號2000號第4416結下0010號0090號第4417 0000號第4418結下1100號1900號"},{"start":13774.77,"end":13792.176,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":13792.316,"end":13794.658,"text":"解下100號、1200號、1900號、2000號、900號、第4420解下100號、1900號、9010號、9020號、第4421解下1000號、2000號、9100號及9900號等133項之第二欄稅率修正馬少偶而沒取適用之稅率"},{"start":13812.389,"end":13819.811,"text":"第45章 軟木及軟木製品 修正第450 結下1000號、9000號及第450、2000號等三項之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第46章 草期其他材料之邊結品 邊欄及柳條邊結品"},{"start":13833.635,"end":13835.896,"text":"修正第4601截下2210號、2910號、2920號、2990號、9310號、9400號、9910號、9920號、9930號、9940號、9991號、9992號第4602截下1100號、1200號、1910號、1990號及9000號等17項"},{"start":13853.948,"end":13868.516,"text":"之第二欄稅率修正碼效額而免取使用之稅率第47章 木將及木將或其他纖維素材料之紙將回收廢料及碎屑紙或紙板修正第4701節下0000號第4702 0000號第4703 1100號"},{"start":13875.18,"end":13875.26,"text":"第4703-1100-1900-2100-2900第4704-1100-1900-2100-2900第4705-0000-4706-1000-2000-3000-9100-9210-9290-9300第4707-1000-2000-9100"},{"start":13903.246,"end":13917.273,"text":"第11號、3090號及9000號等23項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MHC用之稅率。第48章只及紙板、紙漿、紙或紙板之製品,修正第4801、1000號、第4802截下1000號、2000號、4000號、5400號、"},{"start":13926.017,"end":13945.348,"text":"午午一零號午午九零號午六一零號午六二零號午六九零號午七一零號午七九零號午八一零號午八二零號六一一零號六一二零號六二一零號六二二零號六二九零號六九一零號六九九零號第四八零三結下連年一零號連年二零號"},{"start":13946.008,"end":13946.048,"text":"第4804-1100-1900-2100-2900-3100-3900-4100-4200-4900-5100-5200-5900第4805-1100-1200-19"},{"start":13964.019,"end":13964.399,"text":"1910號1990號2400號2200號300000號4011號4019號4020號5000號9100號9210號9290號9310號9390號第4806節下1000號2000號3000號4000號第4807節下0000號"},{"start":13987.81,"end":13987.87,"text":"第4808-1010-1020-1090-4000-9000第4809-2000-9010-9090第4810-1310-1320-1310-1340-1410-1420-1490-1910-1990-2210"},{"start":14013.254,"end":14029.903,"text":"二二二零號 二九零零號 三一零零號 三二一零號 三二二零號 三九一零號 三九二零號 九二一零號 九二二零號 九二三零號 九二九零號 九九零零號第十八一屆下一零零零號 四一零零號 四九零零號 五一零零號"},{"start":14030.643,"end":14052.762,"text":"午九零零號 六零零零號 九零零零號 零零零零號 第四八一三節下 一零零零號 二零零零號 九零一零號 九零九零號 第四八一四節下 二零零零號 九零零零號 第四八一六節下 二零零零號 九零一零號 九零九零號 第四八一七節下 一零零零號 二零零零號"},{"start":14053.302,"end":14073.677,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":14074.036,"end":14089.172,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":14089.292,"end":14096.558,"text":"第4823節下2000號、4000號、6100號、6900號、7000號及9000號等133項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾而沒取適用之稅率。第49章書及新聞報紙、圖書及其他印刷工業產品、手寫稿、打字稿及設計圖樣。修正第4901項"},{"start":14112.89,"end":14113.771,"text":"結下1000號、9100號、9910號、9990號第4902結下1000號、9000號第4903結下0010號、0020號第4904、000000號第4905、2000號、9000號第4906、0000號第4907結下0010號、0020號、0030號、0040號、0090號第4908結下"},{"start":14142.345,"end":14145.827,"text":"第11屆第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會"},{"start":14164.929,"end":14171.473,"text":"第15章 修正第5002、0000號、第5003、結下0010號、0090號及第5004、0090號等四項之第二欄稅率、修正馬紹爾MH使用之稅率、第51章羊毛、動物粗細毛、馬毛紗及其縮織品、修正第"},{"start":14187.623,"end":14198.785,"text":"五一零一屆下一一零零號一九零零號二一零零號二九零零號三零零號第五一零二屆下一一一零號一一二零號一九一零號"},{"start":14200.811,"end":14219.309,"text":"1920、2010、2020、5103、1000、2000、3000、5104、0000、5105、1000、2100、2900、3100"},{"start":14219.469,"end":14246.291,"text":"三九零零號及四零零零號等二十一項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第五十二章明花修正第五二零一零零零號第五二零二結下一零零零號九一零零號九九零零號及第五二零三零零零零號等五項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第五十三章其他職務紡織行為"},{"start":14248.192,"end":14253.554,"text":"紙紗及紙紗所置物,修正第5301節下1000號,2100號,2900號,3000號,第5302節下1000號,9000號,第5303節下1010號,1090號,9000號,第5305,0000號及第5308,1000號等11項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率,"},{"start":14273.843,"end":14281.751,"text":"第56章挺臭用材料沾泥不織布特種沙允獻神所攬及其製品修正第5603節下1110號、1210號、1310號、1410號、9110號、9210號、9310號、9410號、第5608、1100號、第5609節下0010號、0020號"},{"start":14297.005,"end":14315.111,"text":"〔議員會議〕"},{"start":14315.291,"end":14329.49,"text":"及2000號等二項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。第58章特殊縮織物、簇絨之物、花邊之物、掛毯、裝飾之物、刺繡之物修正第5804節下3010號、3090號"},{"start":14333.154,"end":14342.182,"text":"5月15日及16日二天一次會議5月15日及16日二天一次會議5月15日及16日二天一次會議5月15日及16日二天一次會議5月15日及16日二天一次會議5月15日及16日二天一次會議5月15日及16日二天一次會議"},{"start":14360.658,"end":14366,"text":"第61章爭執或勾爭執之依佐及輔事附屬品修正第6117節下1010號1020號1030號及1090號等四項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第63章其他製成紡織品組合品就依佐及舊紡織品副部修正第63"},{"start":14386.44,"end":14402.105,"text":"第16屆下3010號及3090號等位項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第64章斜靴及類似品此類似品之零件修正第6401 1010號第6402 結下9110號9910號及第"},{"start":14407.907,"end":14421.778,"text":"路403、4000號等四項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第67章已整理之羽毛羽絨及其製品人造花人髮製品修正第6701節下0010號、0020號及0030號等三項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率"},{"start":14428.303,"end":14450.789,"text":"第68章 食材 膠米 水泥 石棉 雲木或類似材料之製品 修正第68006-2000號之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹爾而沒取適用之稅率第69章 陶瓷產品 修正第6902-9010號之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹爾而沒取適用之稅率第70章 玻璃及玻璃器 修正第7001-0000號"},{"start":14453.55,"end":14456.671,"text":"第7003節下1210號1290號,第7014節下0021號0029號,第7015節下9040號9050號9090號,第7020節下0012號及0040號等10項之第二欄稅率,修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率。"},{"start":14474.383,"end":14489.933,"text":"第七十一章天然珍珠或養珠寶石或刺寶石貴金屬背負貴金屬之金屬及其製品仿飾品鑄比修正第七一零一結下一零零零號二一零零號二二零零號第七一零二結下一零零零號"},{"start":14490.874,"end":14519.946,"text":"二一零零號二九零零號三一零零號三九零零號第七一零三結下一零零零號九一零零號九九零零號第七一零四結下一零零零號二一一零號二一二零號二一三零號二一四零號二九一號二九一有號二九二零號九一一零號九一二零號九九一一號九九一九號九九二零號第七一零五結下一零一零號一零九零號九九零零號第七一零六"},{"start":14520.666,"end":14520.686,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":14541.388,"end":14559.099,"text":"一九零零號 二一零號 二九零零號 三一零零號 三九零零號 四一零零號 四九零零號 第七一一一零零零號 第七一一二 結下三零零零號 九一零零號 九二零零號 九九零零號 第七一一三結下一一零零號"},{"start":14561.206,"end":14582.248,"text":"一九零零號 二零零零號 第七一一四 截下一一零零號 一九零零號 二零零號 第七一一五 截下一零零零號 九零一零號 九零二零號 九零三零號 九零四零號 九零五零號 九零九零號 第七一一六 截下一零一零號 一零九零號 二零一零號 二零九零號"},{"start":14582.948,"end":14597.457,"text":"第71一七節下一一零零號一九零零號九零零號第七一一八節下一零零零號九零一零號及九零九零號等七十四項第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之日稅率"},{"start":14598.317,"end":14600.479,"text":"第72章 鋼鐵 修正第7201節下1000號2000號第5010號5020號第7202節下1100號1900號2100號2900號3000號1100號4900號5000號6000號7000號8010號8020號9110號9120號9200號"},{"start":14621.917,"end":14645.757,"text":"九三零零號九九一零號九九九零號第二三零三結下一零零零號九零一零號九零二零號第七二零四結下一零零零號二一零零號二九零零號三零零零號四一零零號四九二零號四九九零號五零零號第七七二零五結下一零一零號一零二零號二一零零號二九零零號第七二零六結下一零零零號九零零號"},{"start":14647.216,"end":14647.556,"text":"第7207決下11100號、1200號、1900號、22000號、第7208決下1010號、1090號、2510號、2520號、2530號、2610號、2620號、2630號、2710號、2720號、2730號、3610號、3620號、3630號、3710號、3720號、3730號、3810號、3820號、3830號、3910號、3920號、3930號、4010號、4021號"},{"start":14673.916,"end":14689.616,"text":"4029511051205130514052105220523053105320533054105420543090109021902290309040"},{"start":14689.736,"end":14690.056,"text":"第7209接下來1510號1520號1530號1610號1620號1630號1710號1720號1730號1810號1820號1830號2510號2520號2530號2610號2620號2630號2710號2720號2730號2810號2820號2830號9010號9021號90229號9031號9039號"},{"start":14715.077,"end":14745.077,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":14746.278,"end":14747.839,"text":"9010號9020號9030號9040號第721號決下1000號2000號3000號4010號4020號4030號4090號5010號5020號5030號5090號6000號第7213決下1000號2000號9110號9120號"},{"start":14768.803,"end":14794.91,"text":"九一三零號九九一零號九九二零號九九三零號第七二一四節下一零一零號一零二零號一零三零號二零零號三零零號九一一零號九一二零號九一三零號九九一零號九九二零號九九三零號第七二一五節下一零零零號五零一五零一零號五零二零號五零三零號五九零零號第七二一六節下一零零零號二一零零號二二零零號三一零零號三二零零號三三零零號四零零零號五零零零號"},{"start":14795.35,"end":14819.94,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":14822.952,"end":14840.199,"text":"一二一零號 一二九零號 一三一零號 一三九零號 一四一零號 一四九零號 二一一零號 二一九零號 二二一零號 二二九零號 二三一零號 二三九零號 二十一零號 二四九零號 三一一零號 三一九零號 三二一零號 三二九零號 三三一零號 三三九零號 三十一零號 三四九零號 三五一零號 三五九零號"},{"start":14841.92,"end":14860.811,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":14861.161,"end":14877.137,"text":"第七二二三零零零號 零零零零號 第七二二四結下一零零零號 九零零零號 第七二二五結下一零零號 一九零零號 一九二零號 一九三零號 三零零零號 四零零零號 五零零零號 九一零零號 九二零零號 九九一零號 九九九零號"},{"start":14877.717,"end":14878.478,"text":"第7月26節下1910號1910號1920號1930號2000號9100號9210號9290號9910號9920號9990號第7月27節下1000號2010號2090號9000號第7月28節下1000號2010號2090號3000號4000號5000號6000號7000號8010號"},{"start":14903.663,"end":14905.523,"text":"8020號第7229結下2000號9010號9020號9030號及9090號等307項之第二欄稅率修正馬照MH適用之稅率第73章岡起製品修正7301結下1000號2000號第7202結下1010號1020號40000號9010號9090號第7303000號"},{"start":14930.268,"end":14931.308,"text":"第7304截下1100號1900號2200號2300號2400號2900號3100號3910號3990號4100號4900號5110號5190號5910號5990號19000號第7305截下1100號1200號1900號2000號3100號3900號9000號第7306截下1100號1900號2100號2900號3000號"},{"start":14959.597,"end":14959.617,"text":"4000號、5000號、6100號、6900號、9010號、9090號、7303結下2210號"},{"start":14969.568,"end":14970.609,"text":"920號第7308結下11000號9010號9090號第7312結下1010號1090號9000號第7313000號第7314結下1200號1400號1910號1920號1990號2000號3100號3900號4100號4200號4900號"},{"start":14991.827,"end":14992.967,"text":"第7月15日及16日二天一次會議"},{"start":15017.955,"end":15020.816,"text":"第7402000號、第7403結下1100號、1200號、1300號、1900號、2100號、2200號、2910號、2990號、第7405000號、第7406結下11000號、2000號及第74198030號等15項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之稅率第75章涅吉吉製品修正第7501結下"},{"start":15044.56,"end":15067.552,"text":"一零零零號 二零零零號 第七五零二決下 一零零零號 二零零零號 第七五零三零零零號 第七五零四零零零號 第七五零五決下 一一一零號 一二零號 一二一零號 一二二零號 二一零零號 二零零號 第七五零六決下 一零一零號 一零二零號 一零三零號 二零一零號 二零二零號 二零三零號 第七五零七決下 一一零零號"},{"start":15068.293,"end":15076.409,"text":"一二零零號二零零號及第七五零八九零一號一零號等二十二項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH適用之事稅率"},{"start":15078.032,"end":15080.914,"text":"第76章女GG制品修正第7601結下11000號2010號2020號第7603結下11000號2000號第7605結下1110號1900號2110號2900號第7607結下1110號120號1920號第7615結下1010號2000號第7612結下9930號99"},{"start":15103.18,"end":15111.31,"text":"第11號等16項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH4項之稅率第78章簽集其製品修正第7801節下11000號"},{"start":15114.96,"end":15127.065,"text":"9100號9900號第780200000號及第7804200000號等五項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第79張新集期製品修正第7901結下1100號1200號第7903結下1100號及900號等四項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第83集期製品修正第8001結下1100號"},{"start":15142.671,"end":15147.715,"text":"第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第81章其他配金屬持金及其製品"},{"start":15165.984,"end":15167.825,"text":"修正第8101決下11000號9400號9600號9700號9910號9990號第8102決下11000號9400號9500號9200號9700號9900號第8103決下2010號2020號3000號9100號9900號第8104決下"},{"start":15186.851,"end":15211.295,"text":"一一零零號 一九零零號 二零零零號 三零一零號 三零二零號 九零零零號 第八一零五 結下二零一零號 二零二零號 三零零零號 九零一零號 九零九零號 第八一零六 結下一零零零號 九零零零號 第八一零八 結下二零零零號 三零零零號 九零一零號 九零九零號 第八一零九 結下二一零零號 二九零零號 三一零零號 三九零零號 九一零零號 九九零零"},{"start":15215.437,"end":15216.428,"text":"第8110節下0010"},{"start":15218.444,"end":15218.724,"text":"10號、0020號、0030號、第811號、1200號、1300號、1900號、2100號、2200號、2900號、3100號、3910號、3990號、1100號、4910號、4990號、5100號、5200號、5900號、6100號、6910號、6920號、6990號、9211號、9212號、9219號、9223號、9224號、9229號、9911號、9919號、9930號、9940號、9990號、第8113階下"},{"start":15247.776,"end":15247.796,"text":"〔議員發言〕"},{"start":15266.374,"end":15290.216,"text":"第二欄稅率 修正馬紹M及適用之稅率 修正第82119530號之第一欄稅率 第83章雜項非金屬製品 修正第83012000號及83023000號等二項之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹M及適用之稅率 第84章盒子反應器 鍋爐機器及機械用具及其零件 修正增注3增注10增注11及增注14"},{"start":15291.518,"end":15292.039,"text":"修正第8401接下來1000號2000號3000號4000號10"},{"start":15298.39,"end":15298.85,"text":"第8407-1100號第8409-1100號91700號9990號第841-1100號1200號2100號2200號9100號第8414-1010號5910號第8417-8010號第8418-2020號3010號4010號5010號6950號6960號第8419-2000號4010號4020號5010號8930號8950號"},{"start":15328.382,"end":15328.982,"text":"9020號9090號第84201020號第8421決下2910號3920號9920號第8423決下2010號3010號8110號8210號8910號9090號第8424決下8190號8910號8920號9030號第8425決下1100號1900號3100號3900號1100號1200號4900號"},{"start":15353.809,"end":15353.849,"text":"第8、4、2、6、9、10、1100、1210、1220、1900、2000、3000、4100、4900、4100、9900第8、4、2、8、9、1011、1019、1020、2010、2022、3100、3200、3300、3900、40100、4020"},{"start":15373.166,"end":15393.831,"text":"6000、7000、9000、8429、1100、1900、2000、3000、4000、5100、5200、5900、8403、1100、2000、3100、3900、4110、4190、4900、5000、6100、6900"},{"start":15395.182,"end":15416.88,"text":"第八四三一決下一零零零號 三一一零號 三一九零號 三九零零號 四一零零號 四二零零號 四三零零號 四九零零號 第八四三二決下一零一零號 一零九零號 二一零零號 二九一零號 二九九零號 三一零零號 三九零零號 四一零零號 四二零零號 八零一零號 八零九零號 九零一零號 九零二零號 九零三零號 九零九零號 第八四三三決下一一零零號 一九零零號 二零零零號"},{"start":15421.619,"end":15446.397,"text":"五三一零號 五三九零號 五九零零號 六零零零號 九零零零號 第八四三四截下 一零零零號 二零零零號 四九零零號 第八四四二截下 三零一零號 三零三零三零號 三零九零號 四零一零號 四零九零號 五零一零號 五零二零號 五零三零號 五零九零號 第八四四三截下 一九一零號 三一零零號 三二零零號 三九零零號 九一零零號 九九零零號"},{"start":15447.435,"end":15447.555,"text":"第853-2000第856-1110-1210第8466-9393第8467-2910-2920-2930-2940-2990第8470-1010-1020-2100-2900-3000-5000-9000第871-3000"},{"start":15469.591,"end":15469.951,"text":"4100號、4900號、5000號、6010號、6030號、6090號、7010號、7090號、8000號、9010號、9020號、9030號、9040號、9090號、第87會決下1100號、3010號、9010號、9020號、9030號、9040號、9050號、9060號、9070號、9090號、第873會決下2100號、2900號、3010號、"},{"start":15493.48,"end":15494.581,"text":"4010號、4020號、4090號、5000號、第8470結下、1000號、2000號、3100號、3200號、3900號、8000號、9000號、第8475結下、2100號、9010號、第8476結下、8910號、8920號、9010號、9020號、第8479結下、1010號、1020號、1090號、8930號、8950號、8961號、8991號、9010號、9020號、9030號、第84"},{"start":15522.317,"end":15550.022,"text":"第81結下8050號、8060號、9010號、9020號、9090號、第八四八六結下1000號、2000號、3000號、4000號、9000號及第八四八七1000號等二二七項之第二欄稅率修正馬上我們去適用稅率修正第八四一八一零一號修正第八四一八結下一零一號、一零一二號及一零一三號等三項之第一欄稅率第八十五章"},{"start":15555.73,"end":15561.374,"text":"電視影像聲音記錄機及重放機以及上述各物資零件及附件修正珍珠室修正地8504-4020-4091-4092-4093-4094-4099-501-5019-5090-9000-8505-9010-9070-9091-9092"},{"start":15574.684,"end":15597.005,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":15597.225,"end":15597.245,"text":"委員會議員會議"},{"start":15623.848,"end":15647.363,"text":"9010、9020、9030、9090、8522、19010、9021、9029、9030、8523、2100、2910、2990、4100、4900、5100、5200、5900、8000、8524、1100、1200、1900、9100、9200、9900、8525、5000"},{"start":15648.029,"end":15655.742,"text":"6000號、810號、8190號、8290號、8310號、8390號、8910號、8990號"},{"start":15657.622,"end":15658.563,"text":"第8526結下100號、9110號、9120號、9190號、9210號、9290號、第8527結下1200號、1900號、92900號、9100號、9200號、9900號、第8528結下1200號、4910號、4920號、5200號、5910號、5920號、6200號、7110號、7120號、7191號、7199號、第8529結下1019號、1020號、1030號、9011號、9012號"},{"start":15685.879,"end":15700.879,"text":"9030、9040、9050、9090、8531、1010、1020、1090、2000、8010、8020、8030、8091、8092、8093、8094、8099、8532、10000"},{"start":15701.099,"end":15723.893,"text":"二一零零號 二二零零號 二三零零號 二四零零號 二五一零號 二五二零號 二九零零號 三零零零號 九零零零號 第八五三三結下一零一零號 一零二零號 二一零零號 二九零零號 三一零零號 三九零零號 四零零零號 九零零零號 第八五三四零零號 第八五三六結下五零三零號 五零五零號 五零六零號 五零七零號 五零八零號 六一零零號 六九一零號 九零一零號"},{"start":15726.875,"end":15727.236,"text":"第85381000號、第8539結下、3921號、9000號、第8540結下、4000號、6000號、第8541結下、1010號、1090號、2100號、2910號、2990號、3000號、4100號、4200號、4300號、4900號、5100號、5900號"},{"start":15744.497,"end":15765.708,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":15765.928,"end":15766.409,"text":"70號、7081號、708號、7091號、7092號、7093號、7094號、7094號、7095號、9040號、9050號、9090號、第8544結下、4290號、4910號、7000號、第8545100號"},{"start":15784.042,"end":15786.784,"text":"第8548-0010-0020-8549-1100-1200-1300-1400-1900-2100-2900-3100-3900-9100-9910-9990等238項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾有沒有適用之稅率。第86章"},{"start":15804.938,"end":15804.958,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":15827.714,"end":15828.455,"text":"修正第8701-3010-3090-9120-9220-9320-949420-9420-9520-第8702-9030-第8703-9020-第8704-1010-1090-第8705-3000-第8708-4010-4020-4080-9970-第871000-"},{"start":15849.33,"end":15850.892,"text":"第8月15日及16日二天一次會議"},{"start":15864.127,"end":15865.367,"text":"太空轉集體零件修正第8801-0010-0030-0090-8802-1100-1200-2000-3000-400-6000-8804-0010-0020-8805-1100-2100-2900-8806-1100-2100-2200-2300-2400-2900"},{"start":15886.133,"end":15888.577,"text":"9100號、9200號、9300號、9400號、9900號、第8807結下第1100號、2000號、3000號及9000號等29項之第二欄稅率修正馬哨MH適用之稅率第89章傳播及浮動構造體"},{"start":15902.97,"end":15905.951,"text":"修正珍珠府修正第8901結下11000號2000號300000號9010號9020號9030號9090號第8902結下0010號0020號第8903結下1290號1990號2100號"},{"start":15921.4,"end":15942.962,"text":"二二零零號 二三零零號 三一零零號 三二零零號 三三零零號 九三一零號 九三九零號 九三九九三零號 九九九零號 第八九零四零零零號 第八九零五 結下一零零零號 二零零零號 九零一零號 九零二零號 九零九零號 第八九零六 結下一零零零號 九零一零號 九零二零號 九零九零號 第八九零七 結下一零一零號 一零九零號 第八九零八 結下一零零一"},{"start":15944.794,"end":15960.904,"text":"10號及0020號等35項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第90章光學照相電影計量檢查精密內科或外科儀器及器具上述物品之零件及附件修正正注一修正第9901截下1000號2000號9010號9020號9090號第9902截下110號1900號2000號9010號9020號"},{"start":15970.35,"end":15993.183,"text":"9031,9032,9033,9039,9040,9090,906400,9010,5010,5020,5090,6000,9030,9011,1000,8000,9010,9012,1000,9010,9013,1010,1013"},{"start":15993.183,"end":16016.476,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":16016.616,"end":16031.508,"text":"三零零零號九零一零號第九零一八節下一一零零號一二零零號一三零零號一四零零號一九一一九一零號一九三零號一九九零號二零零零號三一零零號三二零零號三九零零號四一零零號四九一零號"},{"start":16032.449,"end":16052.671,"text":"1920-5000-9010-9020-9030-9040-9050-9060-9080-9090-9019-1011-1019-1020-2010-2020-2030-2050-2060-2090-9021-1010-1020"},{"start":16054.141,"end":16074.806,"text":"一二零零號 二一零零號 二九一零號 二九九零號 三一零零號 三九一一號 三九一號 三九二零號 三九三三 三九三一號 三九三二號 三九四零號 三九五零號 三九六零號 三九九零號 四零零號 五零零號 九零一零號 九零九零號 第九零二二 接下來一二零零號 一三零零號 一四零零號 一九零零號 二一一零號 二一九零號 二九零零號"},{"start":16075.626,"end":16102.434,"text":"三零零零號九零零號第九零二三九下零零一零號零零九零號第二零九二四九下一零零零號八零零零號九零零號第九零二五九下一零一零號一九零號一九一零號一九九零號八零一零號八零九零號九零零號第九零二六九下一零一零號一零九一號一零九二號二零一零號二零九二號二零九一號二零九二號八零一零號八零二零號八零九零號九零零號第九零二七九下一零零零號二零零零號"},{"start":16103.294,"end":16103.534,"text":"3010號、3020號、3030號、500000號、8911號、8912、8913號、8920號、8930號、8940號、8950號、8960號、8970號、8980號、8990號、9010號、9090號、第9028、9010號、1090號、2000號、9010號、第9030、10000號、2010號、2090號、3100號、3200號、3310號、3320號、"},{"start":16127.7,"end":16127.72,"text":"申請審議"},{"start":16150.865,"end":16167.956,"text":"901號等193項之二第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第91章鐘表及其零件修正第9105節下910號及9120號等二項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第92章月期及其與其零件及附件"},{"start":16168.837,"end":16179.205,"text":"修正第9209、9952號之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH4樣之稅率第93武器與彈藥及其零件與附件修正第9301截下1000號、2000號、9000號、第9202、0000號、第9303截下1000號、910號、9090號、第9305截下1000號、2090號、第9306截下2100號、2900號、3090號、90000號"},{"start":16196.377,"end":16215.579,"text":"及第9307000號等14項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹MH適用之稅率第94章家具請具入入支持物軟墊及類似沖田家具未列名之燈具及照明裝置照明標誌照明名牌及類似品組合式建築物修正珍珠衣修正第9401結下"},{"start":16216.88,"end":16238.486,"text":"一零零零號 三一零零號 三九零零號 四一零零號 四九零零號 五二一零號 五二九零號 五三一零號 五三九零號 五九一零號 五九九零號 六一零號 六一九零號 六九一零號 六九九零號 七一零零號 七九零零號 八零零零號九一零零號 九九零零號 第九四零二 結下一零一一號 一零一二號 一零二一號 一零二二號 一零九一號 一零九二號 九零一一號 九零一二號 九零九一號 九零九二號"},{"start":16246.648,"end":16250.411,"text":"6010號、6090號、7000號、8210號、8290號、8310號、8390號、8910號、8920號、8990號、9100號及9900號等50項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH試用之稅率第95章玩具、遊戲品、應當用品與其及其零件、附件修正第9503接下來001號、0019號、0021號、0022號、0023號、0024號、0029號、0031號、0039號、0041號、0049號、0051號、0059號、0061號"},{"start":16276.611,"end":16276.631,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":16293.473,"end":16295.995,"text":"9090號第9505決下1000號9000號及第95067010號等34項之第二欄稅率修正馬紹爾MH4項之稅率第96章雜項製品修正第96083040號第9619決下0001號0012號第9620決下0020號及"},{"start":16317.514,"end":16325.702,"text":"901號等五項之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹MH適用之稅率 修正第9620012號及9620041號等二項之第一欄稅率 第97張藝術品珍藏品及古董 修正第9701決下2100號 2200號 2900號 9100號 9200號 9900號 第9702決下1100號 9000號 第9703決下11000號"},{"start":16342.355,"end":16344.856,"text":"第970-0010-0020-0030-0090 第9705-1100-2100-2200-2900-3100-3900及第9706-1100等21項之第二欄稅率 修正馬紹爾MH4項之稅率 第98章關稅配額之貨品 修正珍珠一 宣傳完畢"},{"start":17184.24,"end":17206.787,"text":"好現在進行協商請問各位委員對海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案有沒有意見好那協商完成請議事人宣讀協商結論協商結論照行政院提案通過宣傳筆好請問各位委員對於協商結論有異議"},{"start":17209.735,"end":17229.201,"text":"好,無異我們照協商結論通過本次會議做如下的決議一、說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內與書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":17230.836,"end":17257.234,"text":"委員羅明財所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆是海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案審查完全擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需由黨團協商院會討論時由本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議有異議"},{"start":17261.256,"end":17277.568,"text":"有異議無異議通過問了三次本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並此議事人員協助處理上會"}]}},{"id":"152662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc304e4fae19bdc216ad3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f69cecf85affcffba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:08:31 - 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請主席邀請次長請次長委員好次長早安謝謝委員早今天我們是針對這個公路的道系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形來進行詢問那我們也知道就是有關這個道路及橋梁的安全就是會影響到用路人還有駕駛人的這個交通安全"},{"start":32.501,"end":51.284,"text":"那我們知道這個交通部也宣誓說這個2050年要達到這個交通零死亡這樣子的一個政策目標那我在這邊先就這個部分請教市長因為我們看最近這5年來就是就這個道路交通的事故的人數跟件數"},{"start":52.205,"end":52.325,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":67.726,"end":88.573,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們去年已經有通過了那個就是一些相關的政策那今年也通過道路交通安全基本法還有綱要計劃那內政部今年也通過了行電交通安全設施條例所以基本上我們現在會根據這個綱要計劃還有這個設施條例去從工程教育監理"},{"start":89.113,"end":91.454,"text":"本席有看到就是說我們交通部有建置一個"},{"start":118.2,"end":131.891,"text":"道路交通安全資料整合與分析平台這個次長您知道嗎對 我們有這個平台我們也有個道安資訊查詢網有可以供各界來查詢相關的一些道安的資訊"},{"start":133.351,"end":161.456,"text":"對 那就這個資訊裡面當然就是主要就是針對這個事故的一些背景分析就是包括肇事原因還有駕駛人的這個資格包括年齡性別等等還有這個事故違規的排行跟熱區分析那其實我們也看到就是說就韓國他就這個部分的分析他做得更細就是說針對這個交通事故發生的區域"},{"start":162.176,"end":164.619,"text":"我們這個部分好像沒有做到這樣子"},{"start":182.839,"end":210.941,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們的後台資料的資訊更多當然就是說這個不是每個都開放給所有的人使用但比如我們相關主管單位或縣政府他可以進入這個平台針對他的需要去做分析比如說他是發生在村裡道路呢還是在我們的平台裡面可以做分析也跟委員我們現在也有參考一些國外的一些的平台的顯示的方式跟內容進行相關的一個修正"},{"start":212.461,"end":233.286,"text":"我跟委員再報告一下就是剛才委員特別提到的那個相關的資料其實現在我們運營所也好或者是內政部國土署也好對於這樣的事故的都會採用這個事故的碰撞構圖去做分析在那個構圖的一個平台上他就會有建立剛才委員特別提到的這樣的一個基本的資料在裡面"},{"start":234.066,"end":252.2,"text":"對,那就是說事實上這個這樣子的分析若說可以就這個違規或者是說事故的一個熱區的分析來分析他的事故發生的一些地理環境背景資料然後我們再來予以做這個交通的一個改善我想這個應該是會更細緻的一些作為"},{"start":255.603,"end":277.434,"text":"那因為我們知道最近兩年我們就是非常的關心有關這個行人安全還有這個道路安全的一個議題那其實事實上在地方上我們也發現就是說很多道路可能是道路那個路面寬度不足道路狹窄或者是說彎度過彎或者是說這個路口"},{"start":280.776,"end":280.896,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":298.078,"end":298.218,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":318.436,"end":320.857,"text":"市長你了解嗎?這個計畫目前的辦理情形如何?"},{"start":344.95,"end":359.224,"text":"陳如這個委員所說的確實就是說像內政部跟交通部都有相關的補助的範圍那確實像都外的這個沒有編號的這種非公路系統的話之前其實都是地方政府自己要找經費去這個做處理"},{"start":360.965,"end":378.752,"text":"行政院這一次特別就是說在今年也編了15億讓我們就是說來做這個相關的這個協助地方處理那現在他們已經案子有送相關計畫來我們這邊做申請了那我們大概在這個應該在這個最快我想這個月或下個月我們都會相關的核定"},{"start":379.832,"end":387.616,"text":"因為很多的道路事實上可能就是屬於鄉鎮公所層級的所以對鄉鎮公所他們財源更加的拮据那要跟彰化縣政府爭取經費有時候又很困難所以就這個部分我們也是很期待說我們中央的部分可以針對需要改善的路段給予經費的一個補助"},{"start":404.464,"end":422.349,"text":"可是就我目前接到的一個訊息因為在我的地方我們也關注很多的這個路段真的確實是這個道路才4公尺寬可是是位在這個就是三個鄉界的一個交通要道因為很多從郊遊道下來的可能就是會走這個路線"},{"start":423.869,"end":424.049,"text":"﹚陳素月﹚"},{"start":439.929,"end":460.544,"text":"我們目前我們看到的公文我們是3月15我們公路總局就是有這個公文給地方的政府可是要求在4月15號之前就要報到我們中央來那目前我們地方給我的反應的這個訊息就是說根本來不及報那我不曉得說今年度這樣子還來得及嗎"},{"start":462.968,"end":485.827,"text":"委員如果說因為當初其實是大概給這個地方政府其實兩個月時間4月多是先報到我們當地啦當地的那個這個我們的公務段養物分局他做相關審核後就是再報來我們這邊那我想如果說真的地方政府還有這樣子的需求的話是不是就是說報來我們會盡量因為大概還是要排相關的優先順序"},{"start":487.008,"end":487.168,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30dceb6543ef80688d3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fabde68141fa036825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:39:32 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謝謝主席主席有請次長請次長委員好次長早 次長好是次長我想先請問您還記得在今年2月29號的時候在彰化的深港鄉發生了什麼事嗎"},{"start":22.253,"end":28.297,"text":"公路局有針對事發現場提出三項的交通道路設計改善方案"},{"start":39.364,"end":59.131,"text":"那本席是希望不要每次發生悲劇才重視問題然後針對個案來解決那在這件事之後公路局有沒有檢視就是有多少地方就像包含國道的道路還有橋梁工程設計有沒有發現是多少處是針對我們駕駛還有行人是不安全的"},{"start":60.671,"end":81.279,"text":"我簡單說明一下再請公路局來說說明原則上公路局在這事件發生事故發生之後我們就邀請公路局要全面檢視他的省道的相關的一個路口那他們會在今年明年大概會做一個全面的一個檢視跟改善那相關的情形我是不是請局長來做說明"},{"start":82.279,"end":103.413,"text":"是 跟各位報告第一個就是說這個路口台六一乙這一個部分的話當然就是優先已經就是說會勘然後做相關的一個改善方案了那另外就是說其實對於省道路口裡面就是說比較這個重大的路口或是交通量大的我們都列為最優先那我們省道的路口號誌化的路口其實"},{"start":103.933,"end":106.935,"text":"市長有提到今年已經開始進行的,所以是已經有開始針對,就是比較已經開始了,所以會到時也會有一個完整的"},{"start":128.71,"end":132.954,"text":"交通事故因國道及公路橋梁,包括標線及號誌不符合設計規範,申請國賠案件有多少?"},{"start":155.641,"end":181.869,"text":"跟各位報告國培的部分的話其實他要看他的主管機關如果說他主管機關是在地方政府的話就跟地方政府申請那如果說是其實屬於這個省道是我們主管的話他當然就是說他認為說這個事故有因果關係是跟我們的道路的這些設施有關係的話當然他提起國培的話不過就是說提起國培之後的話因為他有一些相關的審議的程序那要經過這一個審議之後才會去確認"},{"start":184.13,"end":212.609,"text":"那局長目前掌握到的件數有多少件?是不是我這個部分的話因為是不是我們在做一個整理因為是全國如果說我們自己省道的部分我想我們再統計一下再給那個委員OK OK你再提供署名資料應該是沒有是這個委員補充國道的部分所以市長目前了解到國道上是沒有是國道上是沒有那交通部的公路還有橋梁維護檢測還有補強設計等規範都是因為在109年的時候那時候的南方澳大橋斷裂的時候"},{"start":213.65,"end":229.315,"text":"有作修改但是這幾年就是我們因應大地震然後還有就是極端氣候相關的經濟道路還有橋梁相關的安全設計預警機制有沒有也跟著調整沒有看到有積極的作為這方面要如何做改進"},{"start":231.067,"end":243.336,"text":"我想這部分我們也可以提供資料讓委員充分的瞭解。我覺得這上我就講橋梁好了。橋梁的部分透過剛才委員講109年的南方大戰橋之後,其實110年國家的耐震補強的規範有受一些改變。"},{"start":249.501,"end":254.965,"text":"在此之後我們的公路局跟高工局分別會就應該是519處的一個橋梁跟1182座高速公路上的橋梁會做全面的耐震補強"},{"start":279.661,"end":300.16,"text":"公路局的北區養護工程分局那再次確認大橋的安全還有未來邊坡的加固那請問後續的處理狀況我想謝謝委員因為這個整個會刊大概我們也對八零大橋重新再做一個檢視那因為確實有發現就是說它的下邊坡受到河道的一個沖刷需要再做一個"},{"start":300.64,"end":305.041,"text":"臺灣市政府提到均衡城鄉都市計劃區外非公路系統道路改善計劃給公路局,其中有兩岸是復興區,請問何時可以審核完成?"},{"start":327.689,"end":330.45,"text":"本行政委對沒有道路編號的路面破損補助有助於交通事故的減少,那明年還會有嗎?"},{"start":355.373,"end":379.009,"text":"因為其實在這個公路局就是他主要就是這個補助地方是有公路編號的這一個這一個市道、區道、縣道、鄉道那這個沒有編號的這個部分的話是在這個今年度特別行政院有編列一筆預算來協助這個地方政府做沒有編號道路的這個處理那我想"},{"start":379.389,"end":399.982,"text":"如果說這一個有再有急迫我們再跟行政院是不是再做相關的一個申請 注意的辦法是地方政府再提出申請嗎?對那在交通部113年到113到116年的時候有提一個國家道路交通安全綱要計劃其中提到成效的工程升級是改善路口的環境但是道路還有橋梁上面的設計呢?這項計劃只有提到路口"},{"start":405.794,"end":406.154,"text":"目前有提出相關的計畫嗎?"},{"start":423.972,"end":445.467,"text":"這個跟回報告就是說因為現在就是說第一個就是說所有的全國的橋梁都要納入檢測檢測之後就是說如果有需要做維修的要處理那維修的部分的話基本上就是像屬於這個地方政府要自己做的有些是跟內政部有些是跟我們交通部那我們交通部其實在生活圈的計畫也可以來協助"},{"start":446.889,"end":456.227,"text":"同一份報告指出,部分直轄市縣市政府對於道路養護管理和無障礙的人行環境之建構並不是很重視。為什麼會有這樣的說法?"},{"start":457.97,"end":477.48,"text":"在報告裡面總指出,哪些縣市不是很重視?沒有很重視有關這個人行、行人的這個安全的,剛才特別提到人行道德所以我們在這一次的人本的永續的行人安全的一個計畫裡面整體來講4年會將近有400億"},{"start":482.122,"end":498.887,"text":"那由公路局跟那個國土署來分別補助縣市政府來做這樣的改善所以剛才委員特別提到的那些可以在這個計畫裡頭來做處理市長我想說針對這個問題也要就是想到是因為經費還是資源能力不足以及工程專業的問題對所以"},{"start":503.203,"end":505.704,"text":"在反警交通部因為道路安全是中央與地方要共同合作那地方遇到問題在希望中央"},{"start":530.473,"end":530.813,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc300d3e9d351031bdd4c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f3c74b21b52840e365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:45:18 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12:50:53","影片長度":"00:05:35","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":335,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:50:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:45:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1252,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（12時45分）主席，謝謝，有請法務部。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。今天原本要審的兩個法案，一個是關於詐騙的，一個是吹哨者保護法，我想先從吹哨者保護法跟您談起。我記得我在當議員的時候曾經揭露一件案子，是關於公股銀行在選舉期間竟然被要求─暗示性地要求他們幫忙輔選。我收到文件，相關公文也不是密件，沒想到我們公布出這樣的資訊跟相關影片之後，相關行政部門開始檢討所謂有問題的人，也就是開始對公股銀行裡面很多人作了盤查跟稽查，這就是為什麼我們希望要有揭弊者保護法的原因。我想先請問一下，現在所列的吹哨者、揭弊者保護法立完之後，能不能遏阻類似這樣的現象呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們的目標就是要保護揭弊者的安全，還有對他工作的保障。"],["徐委員巧芯：工作的保障？"],["蔡部長清祥：對，不會受到報復。這是我們立法的目標啦！至於細節訂定在哪一個條文裡面……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果有所謂的吹哨者開始發現這個部門在進行調查，我舉一個例子好了，我們剛剛講了公股銀行嘛！假設公股銀行的所有人……我隨便舉例，假設他們有50個員工好了，當公司開始一個一個調查的時候，這50個人裡面，就算不是當初的揭弊者，我們能不能夠讓他向相關部門檢舉有人在做這件事情，或者是否有相關罰則？因為不可能讓揭弊者去做這件事，否則就暴露他的身分啦！他不就被找到了嗎？所以這樣的規範會變得很不合理啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：我請主管機關廉政署說明一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒問題。"],["莊署長榮松：在我們目前送的草案裡，對於揭弊的調查過程是有保護的，所以對於委員講的這個情形，我想還是要按照草案裡的相關規定處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：那不是我的問題，我的問題是你們相關草案裡面有沒有做這樣子的規定？"],["莊署長榮松：我們這個草案裡面著重的是在他的人身、工作權的保障……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我的意思是你是針對揭弊者的人身，對不對？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是今天揭弊者擔心的是，我再舉一個例子給你聽，先前415差點大限電，差點大限電這件事情提前流出，我們很多人就已經知道，包含我，結果台電主管竟然去收了台電基層員工的手機，想要找出到底是誰洩漏這樣子相關的機密出去的，像這種情況就應該要受到揭弊者保護法的保護，可是問題是員工很多啊！你不可能叫揭弊者去做相關的陳述或是保護，如果在這個工作環境裡面有50個人，當他發現我們的團體裡面有人揭弊，有了這個新聞事件，然後我們的主管開始查我們的時候，是不是這一個工作場所裡面的任一人都能夠去把主管這樣子的一個行為提報上來，讓你們去查核？或者是讓這樣子的一個主管接續的情況不要繼續發生，這才是真正的保護揭弊者不是嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：委員講的應該是受理揭弊的機關受理之後，它在做初步的內部調查時所做的一些行為，當然這些行為我想還是要在法律規範的範圍之內。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我是說在這個群體，就是揭弊者揭弊以後，在這一個共同的群體裡面，他或許不是那一位揭弊者，但是對於這個單位已經在調查、找尋揭弊者這件事情，他是不是也能夠申訴？然後讓我們的行政單位來調查，否則的話，這個法律就是假的，因為你們還是把所有的責任推到了揭弊者的身上，簡單回答，因為我時間也已經到了。"],["莊署長榮松：如果他是配合調查的人，他還是受到我們這個草案保護的規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：反正我的結論就是你們在草案裡面，你們要重新去檢查，能不能夠讓同一機關內，就算他不是那個揭弊者，他發現有揭弊者正在面臨不正當的檢查或是情況，為了要找出那名揭弊者，任何人都可以去向你們來檢舉，你們也要來調查這個機關是否有這樣子的情形，並且阻止他們有這樣的情形，才能真正保護到揭弊者，可以嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：可以。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員。","林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員。","翁曉玲委員改書面質詢。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時，有要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.15159375,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.99721875,"end":89.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.13159375000001,"end":85.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.52784375,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.24909375,"end":96.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.63659375,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.20159375,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.19096875,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.67159375,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.21159375000002,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.08409375000002,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.36034375,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.66721875000002,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.46409375000002,"end":242.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.07534375,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.95909375000002,"end":256.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.12159375,"end":257.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.13846875,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.42034375000003,"end":295.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.54596875000004,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.97909375,"end":332.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.51909375,"end":333.21096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.349,"end":10.552,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16.082,"end":41.274,"text":"副長好我們今天呢審的這個原本要審的這個兩個法案一個是這關於詐騙的一個是吹哨者保護法那我想先從吹哨者保護法跟您談起喔我記得我在當議員的時候曾經揭露了一個案子是關於呢公股銀行在選舉期間那他們呢竟然被要求那就暗示性的要求他們要幫忙輔選"},{"start":43.055,"end":56.949,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制"},{"start":66.198,"end":72.786,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":81.155,"end":88.357,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具 «中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":96.24,"end":104.79,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":112.719,"end":130.55,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":146.444,"end":161.132,"text":"當然我們那個這個我們目前送的草案裡面對於這個揭弊的這個調查過程我們自有保護的啦所以我想委員講的這個情形我想還是要按照那個草案裡面的相關規定來問問題是說那你們相關草案裡面有沒有做這樣子的一個規定嗎"},{"start":167.848,"end":174.416,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具"},{"start":185.729,"end":200.67,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第1會期司法及法制"},{"start":201.792,"end":207.48,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":217.315,"end":230.325,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":244.151,"end":260.638,"text":"委員講的應該是說是受理接避的機關受理之後他在做初步內部的調查的時候所做的一些行為啦那這些行為的話我想還是要在法律的規範的範圍之內不是我是說在這個群體就是說接避者接避以後那他的在這個共同的群體裡面他或許不是那位接避者但是他能不能夠"},{"start":269.201,"end":281.924,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":289.446,"end":306.322,"text":"如果他是配合那個調查的人的話他還是受到我們這個草案的保護的規定好反正我的結論就是你們在草案裡面你們要重新去檢查說能不能夠讓同一機關就算他不是那個接避者他發現"},{"start":307.803,"end":329.681,"text":"有接避者正在面臨不正當的檢查或是情況為了要找出那名接避者那任何人都可以去向你們來檢舉那你們也要來調查說這個機關是否有這樣子的情形並且阻止他們有這樣的情形才能真正保護到接避者可以嗎可以好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3093b44c3c8a09e502c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fe3f7e7e6751cfe885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:40:01 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12:45:03","影片長度":"00:05:02","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":302,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:45:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:40:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1221,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時40分）謝謝主席。法務部、金管會有請。"],["主席：部長嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，部長。"],["主席：請部長還有金管會代表。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦囉！今天大家都在討論刑法加重詐欺罪嫌的刑責，本席基本上敬表同意啦！我想部長應該也不會反對。當然為了預防詐騙、嚴格打詐，不會只有提高刑度一個手段，我覺得要預防犯罪大概有三件事嘛！第一個就是犯罪預防機制要怎麼設計。第二，尤其是詐欺犯罪，我覺得跟懲罰犯人同等重要的另外一件事是追回款項。","現在臺灣被大家形容詐騙橫行，政府打詐成效常常被大家詬病，賴清德準總統上臺前也講打詐恐怕是他的第一要務。我們現在談一個案件，前一陣子在檢察官論壇也被熱烈討論，就是這種新型態詐騙。詐騙集團團夥現在利用所謂的虛擬貨幣定位不明這樣的狀況，開設個人幣商，個人幣商明明就是詐騙集團的一員，也成為洗錢工具，但實務上抓到這樣的案例時仍然很難講，因為他可能主張這「就是一般投資行為啊！你抓不到我。」你也很難證明他們在主觀上與詐騙集團有犯意聯絡，以至於大量案件讓基層檢察官苦不堪言、疲於奔命，所以有很大的問題，我今天要花一點點時間討論。現行虛擬通貨辦法跟VASP原則基本上只有規範部分行為嘛！我認為幣商資格與權利義務關係是不夠明確的。那我想請問一下，政府對於這樣的問題，也就是對於詐騙集團利用個人幣商方式規避監管做洗錢這件事情，有沒有精進措施、有沒有什麼防堵方式？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部是負責執法，也就是懲戒、懲罰的打詐機關。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以我也請金管會啊！一起啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：有關透過幣商管理防堵詐騙，是不是由……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以啊！金管會請說明。"],["劉組長萬基：是，跟委員報告。就我所知，對於虛擬資產、個人幣商的管理，其實應該進行商號登記，所以在現在辦法的管理範圍之內。本會證期局其實已經有過相關裁罰案件，就是因為它沒有向本會聲明虛擬資產的資格就進行這樣的業務，本會證期局開過罰單。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們最近推出的打詐四法針對這件事情有沒有一定的精進措施？官員救援可以、開放，沒問題。"],["黃次長謀信：好，跟委員報告，洗錢防制法就幣商部分做一特別處理，現在對於幣商涉及洗錢是予以行政罰，未來我們會在洗錢防制法第六條入刑化，換句話說就是用刑罰處理，這是第一個問題。第二個問題，針對幣商，新的洗錢防制法不僅處罰事業，也處罰個人，所以剛才委員提到的個人幣商也會納管在未來的洗錢防制法裡併同規範。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。","部長，你今天都沒有準備相關題目，是不是？我有點難過。但是沒關係啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：這是很細微的東西，當然我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：打詐新四法怎麼會是細微的東西呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：不，這是幣商的管理嘛！幣商的管理大概是由金管會處理嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：好。","我現在追著往下問，沒關係，一樣請剛剛這位官員回答，他如果比較了解的話沒有關係啊！我們把事情講清楚比較重要。如果在打詐四法順利上路的情況下，理論上會納入洗錢防制法相關業務規範處理，對不對？請問，你們有多大的把握，在納入這樣的機制之後可以完整掌握金流，未來讓相關事件的受害人有機會追回屬於他們的財產？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，幣商部分未來納管後，是透過洗錢防制登記或能量登錄的方式納管。外國幣商在臺灣必須落地、在臺灣進行分公司或公司登記，而且加上洗錢登記……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，政策細節我看過，你們在記者會裡有講。"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯，一旦登記之後就有跡可循啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：基本上他們走登記、登錄制，有跡可循。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我希望你們針對怎麼確保金流要有一定的阻卻方法，也希望可以再細緻一點。當然這些還沒有送到立法院，但這件事我們會長期追蹤，希望可以取得平衡。是不是只用登記、登錄的方式就能解決這個問題，還是金管會可能要思考以特許行業管理，我覺得政府也要做一下討論─清楚的討論，並且說明其理由，可以嗎？這件事請各相關部門預作準備，後面修法的時候我們再來進行詳細的討論，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，各位辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","請徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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12:39:57","影片長度":"00:08:22","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":502,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:39:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:31:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時31分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請蔡部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。今天是你最後一次備詢嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這次要離開公職了？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不會再擔任公職？"],["蔡部長清祥：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：所以要離開要講真話。"],["蔡部長清祥：我一直都講真話。"],["賴委員士葆：要講真、講滿。","你對於自己當法務部長這段時間的自我評價如何？"],["蔡部長清祥：我盡我最大的力量，做好我應該做的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：其實我們看一個法務部長做得好不好，就是看他能不能頂得住政治壓力。你頂得住嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我一直都頂得住。"],["賴委員士葆：你自己說的喔！好。","我的問題不在這裡，我是要問你：現在媒體傳得沸沸揚揚，說要特赦陳水扁，這件案子法務部開始作業了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：蔡總統如果要特赦，需不需要跟你們打招呼？需不需要你們作業配合？"],["蔡部長清祥：她決定以後會交給我們，我們就要發特赦證明書。"],["賴委員士葆：所以還是由你們嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：最後我們處理。"],["賴委員士葆：由你們作業嘛！是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：目前都沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：那外傳5月17號特赦這個消息……"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得消息從哪裡來。"],["賴委員士葆：來得及嗎？要是今天發給你，來得及嗎？如果今天發給法務部，來得及嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：她做了決定以後，我們只是進行作業，把證明書交給當事人。"],["賴委員士葆：所以一定來得及，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果要做的話，我們當然一定全力做好。"],["賴委員士葆：如果要做，一定來得及5月17號，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：但是目前為止沒有消息。"],["賴委員士葆：好。","你們到底扣了多少錢？"],["蔡部長清祥：到底多少錢……"],["賴委員士葆：扣了多少錢？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為有些部分是審判中、有些是判決確定的……"],["賴委員士葆：對，媒體講沒收3億、凍結8億，這個數字確定嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得是什麼樣的算法是沒收3億、凍結8億。"],["賴委員士葆：外面這樣講，那你的數字呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我的數字是目前在瑞士凍結了……"],["賴委員士葆：瑞士有多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：凍結了4億、大約4億新臺幣。"],["賴委員士葆：可是前檢查總長陳聰明多年前講啦！瑞士凍結的有1億美金欸！相當於30億欸！"],["蔡部長清祥：有部分已經送回來了嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：至於目前還凍結在瑞士相關銀行的話……"],["賴委員士葆：還有4億？"],["蔡部長清祥：大概4億。"],["賴委員士葆：但沒收3億確定了？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒收部分因為包括現金、財產等等，前後……"],["賴委員士葆：確定3億嗎？確定3億嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個案子現在由臺北地檢署執行沒收的金額是六點九億多。"],["賴委員士葆：六點九億？凍結……"],["黃次長謀信：執行部分已經全部執行完畢了，還有部分在扣押當中的，大概有7億左右的價值。"],["賴委員士葆：扣押當中的7億？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有凍結？就是凍結？"],["黃次長謀信：就是扣押，就是俗稱的凍結。"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於凍結7億、沒收6億？"],["黃次長謀信：是已經執行完畢的。"],["賴委員士葆：執行完畢就是沒收嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，6.95億。"],["賴委員士葆：都放進國庫了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：假如特赦案下來，照理講，根據赦免法，特赦是免罪不免刑嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：要看總統。特赦有兩種，一種是免除刑事執行，另外一種是罪、刑都失效，所以有兩種，要看總統行使哪一種。"],["賴委員士葆：但是只能針對審判終結的啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，對確定的案件才能行使。"],["賴委員士葆：確定的是那四個案子嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：如果免罪也免刑，錢要不要還？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為是罪刑的免除，犯罪所得沒收不是刑，而是準不當得利的措施，所以不會及於沒收部分。"],["賴委員士葆：所以沒收還是你們的事情？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不管怎麼赦，沒收的照樣沒收？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好。","那我就要講囉！剩下四個案子要怎麼審呢？"],["黃次長謀信：目前這四件案子已經在停審狀態，而刑事訴訟法第二百九十八條有規定什麼時候可以繼續審判，所以必須按照相關作法去……"],["賴委員士葆：我講一個我的觀點啦！如果特赦，最大的意義就在於─對陳水扁來講，他現在是保外就醫嘛！如果那四個案件繼續審，他要回監獄吧！對不對？所以如果特赦了，他就不用回監獄，變成自由身，再打這四個案子的官司，我這樣的講法對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：不是這樣。在執行部分，如果特赦，當然保外就醫等刑的部分就不用執行了。"],["賴委員士葆：就沒有保外就醫了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，因為已經特赦、執行完畢、免去刑之執行了嘛！但審判中案件就要由法官決定要回復到什麼樣的狀態，因為是還沒有決定的案件。"],["賴委員士葆：不，就一般人來講，打官司時都是自由身啊！而他已經關了6年啦！"],["黃次長謀信：那要具體看該個案法官怎麼認定。"],["賴委員士葆：所以不一定會變成自由身？"],["黃次長謀信：要看個案原來的狀態是不是在自由的狀態，那就要由法官自己依個案決定了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以，還是有可能由法官決定把他羈押？是這個意思嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這我沒辦法預判，要由個案法官決定。"],["賴委員士葆：不可能了啦！現在不可能了！現在都這樣、現在都沒有羈押了，怎麼可能再羈押？大家可想而知。我認為對陳水扁來講最大的意義是他雖然被赦一半，另外四個案子還要審，可是最少他不用再回監獄了啊！保外就醫解除了，對吧？保外就醫解除了嘛！保外就醫解除了，就沒有這個問題，可以專門對付這四個案子啊！而且以現在來講，政治掛帥氣氛這麼濃，很快就會審判啦！對不對？你們認不認同啊？","陳水扁不斷說，參與政治活動、輔選有利、有益他的健康與治療，你們同意嗎？部長，最後一句話，我希望你講到真、講到滿，講真、講滿。"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你贊成這樣的說法嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是他個人的……"],["賴委員士葆：「參加政治活動、輔選有益健康、治療」？"],["蔡部長清祥：有益健康、治療這點要看是誰下的斷言嘛！如果是醫生，那有醫生的專業。如果是他個人，那就是他個人的意見。"],["賴委員士葆：你個人的呢？部長，你個人呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我會綜合授權給主管機關矯正署判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：這個說法，當過檢察官的召委就不會認同嘛！如果這樣的話，請問你，陳水扁的案件到底是法律案件還是政治案件？"],["蔡部長清祥：在我們的認定，法律的由我們來處理……"],["賴委員士葆：當然是法律案件啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：政治的是另外一個判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：他現在是用政治的觀點、用政治的講法模糊化，指稱不是法律案件。但這是道地法律案件啊！不然法院判了四個案子、總共加起來20年是判假的啊？道地是法律案件啊！是一件貪污案啊！到現在為止，他也不認罪、不道歉。錢他當然沒辦法處理了，但怎麼赦？我不知道。蔡英文真的想要在卸任之前赦他嗎？會引起社會很大的公憤喔！很大的反彈喔！對不對？但你們看起來就是……你應該跟蔡總統建議一下啦！真的。這樣對社會很不好，踐踏司法正義莫此為甚！"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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12:48:38","影片長度":"00:06:05","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":365,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:48:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:42:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":927,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時42分）麻煩政次。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：次長好。上個禮拜我針對我們縣內非都市計畫之一般道路的道路環境規劃及用路安全問題要求公路局提供書面資料，再麻煩儘速。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["林委員月琴：這個禮拜我想再進一步針對行穿線與人行道的設置就教於我們的次長，希望交通部能提供一些具體的對策。首先，行穿線的照明應使夜間駕駛可以清楚辨識行穿線與行人，所以在國內交通工程規範中明確訂定照明的相關規範，只要是穿越道的照明度就應該符合垂直照度需求，燈具安裝的部分也要避免對駕駛人造成眩光。本席想請問次長，這樣的垂直照度只有40Lux以上，也就是40燭光以上，如果剛好是40、又是垂直照度，只照度到某一個範圍的時候，是不是足夠？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個應該看規範上是如何規範的。"],["林委員月琴：所以就會發生這種案件，像彰化案事故發生在晚間的6點21分，事故的發生點剛好是在兩盞路燈的中間點，所以就缺乏照明，是否要檢討這個照明到底夠不夠？因為我自己也是開車的人，很常感覺到行穿線前的照明不夠，事實上，路燈就像是舞台的聚光燈，必須要準確地讓穿越的行人成為視覺的焦點，而不是每次都告訴行人要穿亮一點、穿亮一點、穿亮一點，不是這樣子，事實上，應該是要讓行穿線上的照明能夠清楚可見。","現在有很多行穿線是綠底漆，但這個部分並沒有很明確的規範，因為目前各地方政府都在做這件事情，在這樣的狀況下，這種綠底漆除了顯眼之外，也具備了排水功能，確實是很好，而且抗滑係數也較一般的熱拌漆高，但是有一個問題想請教交通部，使用這種巨觀紋理的綠底漆，國內是否有相關的CNS規範？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我真的不是很清楚、很了解，不知道公路局是否了解？"],["林委員月琴：如果沒有的話，我認為要訂定這個規範，而且要考慮到它還有脆裂磨平的問題，可能在規範中還是要做考量。","另外一個要問的是關於人行道的設置，去年修法就已經明確地把公路與市區道路共同使用的路段，從原先條文規定的「應評估」設置人行道，修正為「應留設」人行道，所以本席予以肯定，但是此處的「應留設」是指未來新建的道路才要留下空間設置人行道，或是既有的道路都要設人行道？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會去檢討既有的道路，如果要改建的話，我們就會讓它符合這樣的規範。"],["林委員月琴：希望速度能夠快一點。這幾天文化大學的格致路上發生了一起行人死亡的案件，這個路段就是我們剛剛講的狀況，應該留設人行道卻一直沒有做，而士林分局的說詞竟然是行人要靠邊走，但是她已經很靠邊走了。我覺得這個也是很大的問題，沒有讓行人行走的環境，警方執法時竟然還說行人應該要靠邊走，但是她已經很靠邊走了。","我主張全面盤點道路照明的情形，是不是可以提出具體的改善計畫與期程，不要再告訴路人要不要穿得更亮一點，除非全身都穿反光的顏色。第二個是研擬增訂行穿線綠底漆的CNS規範。再來是針對公路及市區道路共用路段，能否全面盤點檢討及評估人行道設置的情形，回應民眾的需求及下降傷亡，並提出具體的改善計畫與期程。針對上訴三項，能否於一個月內提出？"],["陳次長彥伯：報告委員，我們可以在一個月內向委員提出每一點的後續要怎麼做，但是其中有的牽涉到與地方政府相關，大家必須要共同討論，不是一時就能完成，譬如規範……"],["林委員月琴：先提出你們規劃要怎麼做？"],["陳次長彥伯：規劃要怎麼做、期程是怎麼樣，我們會提出來向委員說明。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，林月琴委員發言完畢。","請黃仁委員、黃仁委員、黃仁委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員陳冠廷及黃仁所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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去把它檢討然後如果要改建的話我們會讓它符合這樣的一個規範"},{"start":265.26,"end":265.841,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":277.031,"end":303.383,"text":"我主張全面盤點我們的道路照明的情形是不是可以提出具體的改善計畫跟期程不要再跟路人講說那你要不要穿得更亮一點那除非我全身都是做反光那第二個是研擬增訂我們的行川縣那個綠地區的CNS規範還有針對公路跟市區道路共用的路段可不可以全面的盤點檢討跟評估人行道設置的"},{"start":304.384,"end":314.943,"text":"請請來回應我們民眾的需求來下降傷亡所以並提出具體的改善計畫跟期程這三項是不是可以一個月然後提出來"},{"start":317.264,"end":335.806,"text":"委員報告我們可以在一個月內向委員提出說這個每一點我們後續要打算怎麼做因為那裡頭有的牽涉到跟地方政府要相關而且大家要共同討論不是一時就可以比如說像規範那是如何怎麼做然後期程是怎麼樣我們來提出來跟委員做說明好謝謝"},{"start":339.38,"end":362.821,"text":"好,謝謝,林月琴委員發言完畢現在請黃仁委員,黃仁委員,黃仁委員不在現在請陳培宇委員,陳培宇委員,陳培宇委員不在現在請蔡易宇委員,蔡易宇委員,蔡易宇委員不在"}]}},{"id":"152656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e09e6459a94706583ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f004998842fe26b305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:36:19 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我跟次長報告啦我們全亞中最塞車的城市他時數大概就是20但是我們新豐新竹縣新豐鄉省道上他可以塞到30對 不是不是他12 12對 每小時只有12"},{"start":175.939,"end":192.616,"text":"有我相信你們應該知道啊地方一直喊一直喊而且這種情形因為我們的省道啊省道貫穿整個台灣但是每個地區他城市的發展不同他可能本來從鄉村慢慢他因為"},{"start":193.797,"end":194.798,"text":"新竹縣 台一縣上"},{"start":220.771,"end":238.931,"text":"湖口到新峰湖口的部分就是我們你們應該很清楚嘛高速公路不用到上下班上下班就不用講了那平常就塞所以全台灣北或南的民眾啊大家只要有在高速公路開車的經驗"},{"start":241.073,"end":261.727,"text":"塞車了虎口到了那新豐也是虎口跟新豐都是高度發展他從一個鄉村變成像虎口鄉他已經要變成全國最大的鄉鎮市不然是啦鄉鎮他已經變最大所以虎口他是高速公路回堵"},{"start":262.948,"end":278.786,"text":"新風是台一線回堵所以這個已經很多年很多年了所以本席希望我們交通部我們今天的這樣的一個討論質詢跟反應你們可以重視而且能夠積極的來協助可以嗎"},{"start":281.348,"end":305.805,"text":"各位委員報告剛才講到高速公路湖口那段我想委員應該就很清楚我們從陽梅到頭份有一個陽頭的高架道路破塊改善那已經喊很久了現在定案到施工到完成我看大概還要5到10年所以那個我們會來那個剛才講到的陽頭這一個但是它除了陽頭高架道路之外那個高速公路本身一高它的"},{"start":306.525,"end":327.115,"text":"跟我們市區道路的連結那個也有改善也有改善的計畫也要拜託這個我們再來看怎麼樣來在這個地方看怎麼樣來討論那至於說剛才台一線我的了解新竹線還是有在那邊要做台一線的替代道路就在新豐"},{"start":328.075,"end":328.395,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"152655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30c35564f3428041483ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0ff9a50da7f8c86c4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:25:35 - 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做人員這個部分的一個問題的反應"},{"start":257.335,"end":276.773,"text":"怎麼反應來次長不是啦我們不要講空話啦我很實在話講我覺得今天本席會看到有媒體這樣的報導那東部地區有這樣的狀況四分之一的人力缺乏還是次長其實之前沒有看到這樣的媒體報導我跟委員報告有關"},{"start":279.247,"end":292.758,"text":"有關這樣的一個事情其實在我們交通部相關主改的時候啊包含跟剛才講的鐵道局公路總局或其他單位大概都有遇到相關的其實"},{"start":293.999,"end":321.511,"text":"這個時間多久了其實這根本就是一個已經累積很久的一個狀況所以我們最近其實有透過希望行政院能夠跟我們有希望跟人事總署來談相關的一個人力也好或者是待遇也好或是績效獎金也好因為看起來不是缺不夠啊看起來是你有缺沒有人啊那你的待遇也不行啊所以說變成是缺乏誘因來去做這個"},{"start":322.631,"end":328.175,"text":"本席一分鐘的時間也要再詢問一下今天有特別講到這個橋梁的一個部分關渡大橋在本席的一個選區裡面我們先講兩個部分一個是關渡大橋"},{"start":347.481,"end":373.68,"text":"三不五時就會有YouTube也會去拍影片我覺得這很好就代表說用路人大家都會去關心但是常常你在那個影片上面都一直看到就是說關渡大橋都會讓大家覺得說設計先天失靈後天失良這邊是說他的設計一直都會讓用路人很有詬病包括說很多人就覺得是說他上面的標示或說潮話線或是相關的一個設計"},{"start":374.821,"end":400.115,"text":"那本席其實在之前上任的時候我就一直講過我覺得我一直強調的是專業要來去做判斷那到底現在的設計是不是好的設計如果是好的設計的話他應該就是要堅持但如果說是不好設計的話該改就要改而不是說每發生一件事情的時候再來改這邊改一點那邊改一點你可以理解我意思嗎"},{"start":401.397,"end":429.632,"text":"就是說你現在整體的設計如果說是好的那就代表是說我們可以已經防止了大部分的一個車禍那真的會不會有車禍因為用路大、量大一定難免會有車禍但是如果說真的有這個車禍的話它可能它是一個激烈問題或它有可能其他的因素造成那就不是道路設計不了可是我們現在看到的是說你每一次現在設計完之後發生了一個車禍然後結果公路總局又再去調整"},{"start":430.632,"end":446.461,"text":"朝化線也好調整那個立裝也好那就代表是說你自己承認說那個立裝或那個朝化線其實設計不良而導致這個車禍那這樣的話他有存在必要嗎那為什麼當初會讓他存在在那裡所以我之前也一直講過說是不是應該要"},{"start":448.513,"end":462.939,"text":"聘請專業的單位好好的去檢視現在關渡大橋現在設計是不是足夠良好那如果說不足的地方應該我們自己主動就把它給設計出來或是規劃出來而不是等到發生問題之後頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":465.635,"end":466.115,"text":"正在作業什麼作業"},{"start":494.832,"end":516.75,"text":"委託整個交通安全整體的改善計畫委託案發出了嗎?多少費用?這個部分應該還沒有委託出去我是不是這個完整的細節再跟委員做一個報告請局長再跟我報告但是我必須再強調一點"},{"start":518.351,"end":542.486,"text":"其實過去我從上任以來我就一直關注而且我也一直講是說關渡大橋這個用量可能是全台的橋梁用量最大的交通量最大那那個時候你們一直也講你們講是說沒有委員現在OK了設計這樣子是我們經過專業評估每一次來都跟我們講說是經過專業評估那結果勒發生一件事情之後就突然間兩個禮拜後"},{"start":544.187,"end":552.064,"text":"那個立裝就不見了發生一件事情之後突然間兩個禮拜後潮話線就不見了或是說潮話線就增加那你們專業在哪裡"},{"start":553.826,"end":575.425,"text":"如果說你們有專業的話你們應該是說我告訴任何的民眾或是告訴人家講說我們確實有經過評估這樣子的設計是最好的那真的有發生意外的話但是我們以這樣的設計意外其實已經大幅降低了而不是說當發生意外之後不好意思我幫你改如果說你們要自己改的話那不就自打嘴巴嗎"},{"start":576.508,"end":599.517,"text":"所以這也是我那時候上任的時候我一直強調是說你應該先做做完之後你應該要堅持因為比專業來講任何人你們既然是行政部門既然公路局以前從總局現在變公路局但不管是叫什麼名稱公路方面應該是你們要有自豪要有自信講是說你們做出來的東西是至少在中華民國我們國內最專業的"},{"start":601.997,"end":612.994,"text":"如果說你們都變成是說頭通一頭腳通一腳或是說人家提出一點質疑連挑戰你們你們馬上禁不起挑戰的話那我說實在話你這樣的單位有什麼專業可言"},{"start":614.591,"end":615.352,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"152654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30285ad10977ede24e3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f1fb40e3de1eea3c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:19:21 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上一次的整戰重複是20年前這一段道路就是台一甲線這個萬壽路的一二三段從回龍的生活圈到龜山的市區一路到桃園火車站基本上是應該要好好來做一下檢討所以我要求公路局這邊把相關的預算編組來來協助地方政府來做這個道路的養護那第二個 剛剛我有提到就是說這個既然最近通過了新的法條"},{"start":135.289,"end":152.606,"text":"是不是也藉這樣的一個機會除了道路重鋪本身的品質提升之外是不是也針對一下行人安全的部分做一下檢討也許同一筆預算或者是不同的預算一起來做一次的工程不只把道路鋪平來也把相關行人友善的設施可以來做納入讓整個道路安全的品質可以再提升可以嗎"},{"start":154.654,"end":170.771,"text":"道路鋪面重鋪之後那個標線要重劃標線重劃的時候比如說這個行川線該退縮的啦或是有些這個線不夠清楚的我想我們一定會依照這個行人安全的這些標準來做我們近期會安排相關的一些會刊要求公路局這邊責成中立公路段權力配合"},{"start":172.273,"end":179.977,"text":"第二個還有一點點時間跟次長來討論一下這個事本來我們希望是王國才部長離開的聲音是支持大眾運輸的聲音上一次在交通委員會質詢的時候當然我們談的是國道客運的運價調整他們講說當初全聯會有提一個版本我們當初在做協調溝通的時候其實他們都再三保證如果說這個運價調整的部分有做一個通過的話可以大幅的減輕各個國道客運虧損的問題"},{"start":200.006,"end":209.743,"text":"然後以至於去改善這個大家對於大眾運輸投入營運興趣缺缺的這樣子一個狀況那市長這個東西公布之後你們有沒有收到新的反饋"},{"start":214.718,"end":230.803,"text":"國道客運的這個運價的調整反應成本交通部已經給我們核定了那我們也轉到各個客運業者那基本上就是說客運業者如果說因為我們因為我們有補貼這一個短途的部分其實TPS的部分都已經都會吸收嘛對"},{"start":231.403,"end":259.341,"text":"那中長的部分是已經補貼身份之外他們不高所以他們還目前各客運業者並沒有提報就是漲價的一個計畫來我現在可以給你反映基層的心聲就有某客運公司就一個桃園往返台北的國道客運按照你調的最高額度因為你這一公里從1.437調到1.503其實有調跟沒調一樣實務上他們反映的結果是這樣他的月營收按照你他如果往上調對不對增加8萬5千塊可是你知道他月虧損是多少錢嗎"},{"start":260.996,"end":281.716,"text":"主委我很擔心這件事情我們花了那麼久的時間來爭取到最後又變空談一場我認為是有問題的好那面對這樣的問題交通部有兩個解決方案因為我想次長有留任希望持續來追蹤這件事情第一個是在針對這件事情或者有其他的補貼方案來做綜合的檢討第二個就是針對短途我想這基隆林佩祥委員也非常關心"},{"start":282.296,"end":294.046,"text":"就短途的國道科院因為他有通勤尖峰的一個特性當初交通部就有答應說要安排專案的補貼來改善這樣子的一個狀況那麼這件事情現在的進度如何是不是請交通部做一下說明"},{"start":295.905,"end":322.999,"text":"委員報告這大概是兩個啦一個剛才是委員講到的是短途通勤的這個國道客運如何讓他這個永續的營運下去這一塊我想我們已經責請這個公路總局就相關的這個營運上如何來於協助是不是補貼的機制可以做些什麼樣的調整而且他們正在研議中我想這個我沒有考慮到這個他這個短途他的尖梨風"},{"start":323.539,"end":324.5,"text":"好 謝謝辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"152653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc301d7235db3458e0223ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f17cb99a06a4423b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:13:09 - 12:19:04","影片長度":"00:05:55","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":355,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:19:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:13:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時13分）主席、各位委員。有請次長還有公路總局局長。"],["主席：請陳次長、陳局長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好、局長好。蘇花安環評經過兩次的初審會議，5月14號初審會議建議通過，「建議通過」這四個字我第一次看到，然後還要在7月31號前補充資料，這個部分上次我有質詢，也是建議你們要好好去做說明，因為第一次初審竟然沒有過，當然環評的人員都在變、都在改、都不同的人，所以我上次一直強調，蘇花改在這次0403地震都沒有怎麼樣，歷次的颱風也都沒有怎麼樣，更重要的就是北迴鐵路，對不對？北迴鐵路也是一樣，幾十年來的颱風、地震都沒有怎麼樣，所以現在的科技可以解決，而且可以跟環保並存，那個才是解決環保的問題，所以這個部分要做比較詳細的說明。然後我是建議趕快提早送資料，然後請環境部提早召開環評大會，可以嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，第一次的專案小組，因為它給了一些意見，本來是5月底要我們把它修正……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。"],["陳局長文瑞：其實我們有提早，我們4月29號就送過去了，然後它5月14號就第一次的意見要我們去說明，我也親自過去，也跟它說明了。說明之後，因為現在開的是專案小組會議，所以專案小組會議說「建議通過」，因為它給我們一些意見，要我們做修正，我想我們會儘快把它修正，趕快送過去，它就會提到他們的大會，然後來……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以我才說，雖然定7月31號以前，但要提早送。"],["陳局長文瑞：一定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：然後再請次長協調環境部，能夠提早召開環評大會，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們來協調看看。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一定要協調，我也會跟環境部……最重要的是你們的資料要趕快送。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。局長特別提到116年蘇花安才要開始動工、發包，這時間也差太久了，要提早。"],["陳局長文瑞：我們會再加強，因為後續包括建設計畫的預算、整個的設計，還有用地取得，如果快的話，其實我們115年就可以啟動發包跟施工，這個部分如果可以加快我們一定會加快。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為事實上公路總局已經很有經驗了，交通部很有經驗了，像蘇花改是更難做的，比現在的蘇花安還難做，結果時間上很快就完成了，所以這個部分你們是沒有問題的，即你們的能力、技術都沒有問題，所以蘇花安這個部分真的要加快，否則這樣真的是拉太長，而且現在又要往後延了，這個都是你們的資料，本來是要120年、119年的，現在又要變成121年，所以這個部分要加油。","除了今天所談的這些，另外一個就是國道五號銜接蘇花改的環評，包括部分民眾對施工便道工程有疑義，還有當地民眾的部分，涉及到原住民部落的部分，你們就請原民會共同一起去協調，好不好？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：時間還有一點點，另外就是在你們今天的報告裡面有談到台9線、台8線有這些落石崩塌等等，但是台11線也有，這次的0403地震，包括後續的餘震，都已經是4月22號了，都還是有餘震，這個是4月22號的畫面，所以都已經造成這樣的狀況，正好都沒有人員通行，不然的話就是一個很重大的問題，所以這個部分請公路總局、交通部這邊，既然已經知道了，還是要去做改善，不然的話，這都涉及到人身的安全，所以這個部分本席也行文給你們，0403之後針對橋梁的安全檢測，這個部分也請你們去加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。鄭天財委員發言完畢。現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":207.663,"end":212.128,"text":"因為事實上公路總局已經很有經驗了,交通部很有經驗了,你看這個抒發改的時間,抒發改是更難做的"},{"start":219.707,"end":243.179,"text":"更難做,比現在蘇阿安還難做,時間很快就完成了,所以這個部分你們是沒有問題的,你們的能力技術都沒有問題的,所以這個蘇阿安真的是要加快,這個部分真的是這樣拉太長,現在又要往後延了,這個都是你們的資料了"},{"start":244.259,"end":268.589,"text":"本來是120119現在又要變成121所以這個部分這個要加油好今天談的這個相關的這些相關的這另外一個國道5號銜接書改那個環評包括裡面部分民眾對施工變道工程有異議還有當地民眾那個部分"},{"start":269.369,"end":296.989,"text":"涉及到原住民的部落的部分：你們就請嚴明會共同的一起去協調好不好是另外就是說那個有關時間還有一點點在你們今天的報告裡面有談到臺九縣臺八縣這些落石崩塌這些那是臺十一縣也有這次的零四零三地震"},{"start":298.07,"end":315.838,"text":"包括到後續的遺症,後續的遺症已經是4月22號了還有遺症這個是4月22號的這個畫面所以已經是多多造成這樣的一個還好都正好"},{"start":317.475,"end":333.368,"text":"正好沒有人員通行不然的話就是一個一個很重大的問題所以這個部分就請這個公路總局交通部這邊這個既然已經知道了還是要去做改善"},{"start":335.189,"end":335.209,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30072844e4662a2573c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fa8baa82c9fec78875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"12:16:38 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12:30:19","影片長度":"00:13:41","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":821,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:30:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:16:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1053,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（12時16分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：也請NCC的代表。"],["主席：NCC的代表。"],["傅委員崐萁：NCC怎麼會派一個處長來？在哪裡？你可以代表陳耀祥部長嗎？可以？那數位部是哪一位？"],["主席：數發部，麻煩上臺。"],["傅委員崐萁：數發部也是處長。那金管會呢？政務委員？"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，今天為什麼要請你們都在這裡？因為你們就是打詐國家隊，清一色讓國人看清楚，從法務部到金管會到NCC到數發部，當然族繁不及備載，如果還有其他的打詐國家隊，我沒有邀請你上臺，有沒有哪一位？也是打詐國家隊，有沒有？部長，您剛剛真的回答錯誤了，現在你要準備歷史留名，要樹立典範，過去你很多施政的面向是加分的，但是也有很多的面向是值得高度檢討的，所以這個時候要留下你的身影讓大家感覺到，今天在這裡詢答必須要講清楚。","剛剛大家都提到，我們詐騙的新收件數108年是3萬4,900件，將近三萬五；去年是22萬9,700件，將近23萬件，我們國家的經濟成長率有像這個比例的話，那不得了，成長560%。部長，臨別感言講一下吧！我們現在不是詐騙國家隊而已，我們現在是詐騙世界隊，而且不是隱形冠軍，是全世界首屈一指的冠軍，還是詐騙的輸出國，全世界詐騙的最新手法都是從臺灣傳出去的，所以臺灣的詐騙案遍布歐洲、美洲、亞洲、東南亞，部長，有什麼心得回應？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然有一些個案的發生，我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：這不叫個案嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，你說有外國詐騙的……"],["傅委員崐萁：完整的數字這麼明顯，560%，部長，你不是要告訴本席哪裡做得好不好，不要每次法務部跟司法院一出來，開宗明義個案，不要再講個案了，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["傅委員崐萁：這是通案，已經變成這個樣子了，現在本席是希望你告訴這一些未來還在打詐國家隊裡面的，你要給他們指導一下，也跟全國國人表達一下，為什麼我們是詐騙的輸出國？而且世界的……"],["蔡部長清祥：我們都是在行政院的指導之下，大家分工合作。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在變行政院的責任了，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，行政院有一個打詐辦公室……"],["傅委員崐萁：陳建仁，還是蘇貞昌？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們共同提出了打詐專法。至於分工，法務部是負責懲詐的部分，其他部會負責阻詐、堵詐還有識詐，所以大家是分工的，行政院是一個團隊。"],["傅委員崐萁：緝捕是誰在緝捕的？緝捕是哪一個單位？"],["蔡部長清祥：緝捕是我們。"],["傅委員崐萁：對嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們負責，但是不是法務部本身，法務部也是由檢察機關……"],["傅委員崐萁：那為什麼完全沒有嚇阻力呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：檢察機關率領了其他的警察調查，執法單位共同來的。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以部長，本席今天很高興聽到你只是執法單位，其他的部分你是配合單位，是這個意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：其他單位負責相關的行政措施，可以來堵詐，來……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以他們的行政措施做得不好就對了？"],["蔡部長清祥：大家都要努力啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：來，數發部是哪一位？我沒有要你回答，你是數發部的處長是嗎？"],["張處長學文：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：NCC的處長是哪一位？謝謝，你們部長都不敢來，你們唐部長還在嗎？"],["張處長學文：在。"],["傅委員崐萁：還在，還健在是吧？那為什麼沒有來立法院呢？好，基本上，從早上講到現在，既然法務部是執行單位，負責宣導、提醒、技術、方式都是NCC、數發部還有金管會，金管會沒有關係啦！這個部分是你們部分業務，這個待會再講。是不是NCC跟數位發展部的成績單就是讓我們這個國家越打越詐？所以這兩個部會是不是我們今年下半年就免除他們的職務？也不需要花費這麼多人力，人總還要控管這麼多員額，這些統統省起來，把這些員額調整到比較適合國家發展的地方去，簡單講，叫做沒有存在的必要。部長，您今天講到你們只是執行單位，嚇阻、宣導、防範都是其他單位負責，那表示這些其他單位就是完全無能，也沒有作用，所以今天才會讓國家的詐騙案這麼嚴重，各位請回。","接下來，本席再請教一下，吹哨者保護法就是揭弊者保護法，我請教一個最簡單的問題，這個散布在各式各樣的條文裡面，我們要把它成立一個專法，部長，為什麼揭弊者需要保護？10秒鐘。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然我們希望在機關也好，或是公司也好，都能夠不發生弊端嘛！那有弊端，有時候不容易察覺，要有人來吹哨。"],["傅委員崐萁：在政府部門也好，都不要有弊端嘛！問題是他來檢舉，一個揭弊者為什麼需要保護？本席剛剛問的問題再說一次，為什麼需要保護？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們鼓勵，他提出揭弊的話，我們也要顧慮到他的安全，保障他的工作。"],["傅委員崐萁：他的安全為什麼會有問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：怕有人會報復啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼他的身分會被揭露出來？"],["蔡部長清祥：那有各種不同的方法，所以我們要杜絕這種被揭露的方法。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請教你一下，黃國昌委員向法務部的檢察官來檢舉孫道存生前的一些案子，也把資料都交給法務部的檢察官，請問是誰把這些東西爆出來？各媒體都在講是黃國昌，那就是法務部洩密哦！是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部不會處理這些案子的。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有，就是法務部洩密嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，法務部不可能洩這個密。"],["傅委員崐萁：再過來，NCC再來一下，一位立法委員來做檢舉，依然可以被我們自己的執法機關把他的人名身分都洩漏出來，今天最大的問題就是政府嘛！你政府把他的身分洩露出來！今天一再講越打越詐、加重刑期，再過來是吹哨者要保護，因為洩密者就是政府，反而要追究洩密者應該負什麼樣的刑責，揭弊者保護法如果源頭不斷掉的話，永遠有保護不完的人，最後沒有人敢揭弊。為什麼源頭管理會出問題？連黃國昌檢舉也被爆料。","接下來，NCC，有一位徐小姐向NCC檢舉，綠營的網軍側翼靠嘴吃飯的這些人不斷地污衊他、罵他，還跑到他家去，向NCC檢舉，然後罵他的人還說……這位徐小姐就是徐巧芯，立法委員向NCC檢舉，今天民進黨政府就是最大的洩密者！這是最大的問題！本席為什麼只提這兩個案子？其實族繁不及備載，太多的案子，但是這兩個是立委來檢舉，我們的行政部門照樣把他的身分洩露出來。","部長，你執掌的法務部，檢察官公然洩密，這個案子我們不是不能組專案，這是可以組專案的哦！可以在這裡開聽證哦！明天國會五法過了，我們就可以開聽證會，當時黃國昌委員到底跟哪一位檢察官檢舉的，資料都交給他，為什麼所有媒體都知道？就開始查了喔！本席上次就教您，雖說偵查不公開、偵查不公開，但是到現在為止，哪一件偵查沒有公開？你們除了第一時間必須否認以外，第二馬上就要做到追查到底是誰洩密。今天所有洩密的都是檢察官、都是法務部，一邊說偵查不公開，但是洩密的統統是法務部！部長，揭弊者當然要保護，那是誰讓揭弊者的身分暴露出來？誰讓他暴露於高度的風險之下？部長，您回答一下。"],["蔡部長清祥：好。洩密者絕對不是法務部，如果辦案人員洩密的話，我們一定依法嚴格追究。"],["傅委員崐萁：洩密者嚴格追究？洩密的不是法務部？那他們跟法務部檢舉後，消息就從天上掉下來，所有媒體都知道了？部長，這個回答只有50分，因為一個部分是0分，另外一個部分是滿分。滿分的部分是指你們承諾要追查，這點值得肯定，但是你到現在還堅持不是法務部洩密，這個本席不能接受。"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部沒有那些資料，怎麼可能洩密嘛？"],["傅委員崐萁：就是檢舉人交給他的！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果說是法務部所屬偵辦人員洩露，我們也會追究啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，每一件偵查不公開案件揭露出來，都是所有媒體報導得比當事人還清楚，那就不是揭弊者或被告，所有資料就是檢察官手上有嘛！還有誰有？通靈喔？這些媒體統統通靈、所以統統知道喔？尤其是臺北地檢。根據鏡周刊，臺北地檢有太多、太多貓膩。本席在這裡要再一次強調，部長，今天的臨別贈言要多講幾句，讓你的後輩、法務部相關同仁都能夠謹守分際，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：我還是建議一下法務部，有一些案子真的從指揮偵辦的檢察官到承辦人都是法務部底下所屬各單位嘛！包括調查官或廉政署，但是案子一件一件洩出來，而且愈洩內容愈多detail，法務部部長、次長，你們對於這些一定要想辦法解決啊！不然偵查不公開會被當笑話看啊！最近發生的幾個案子真的是如此，人名、數字、扣案金額都對，這就有問題了嘛！當然不是法務部洩密啦！但法務部所屬機關是不是……這個東西真的要處理。如果法務部沒有處理，讓檢察官、調查官或廉政署洩密出去，造成當事人的損害或者是被拿來做政治攻擊，我覺得到最後都不是好事情，這點要麻煩法務部這邊想個辦法，看看怎麼解決這個問題。謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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案。"}]}},{"id":"152651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e9f2753c506ee506c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fc77db01c455e67005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:08:10 - 12:16:29","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":499,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:16:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:08:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時8分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。今天本席所提案的揭弊者保護法草案，楊瓊瓔跟我們同仁等21人，針對這一個揭弊法我們認為是有必要的，而且必須要去設一個專法來協助社會大眾，所以特別在第十七條裡頭明定了罰責，我們也希望在逐條討論的時候能夠得到行政部門以及各位同仁的支持。","本席要請教，針對揭弊者保護法，政府告訴我們研議中、研議中、研議中，每一次我們問都是說研議中，累計到目前為止，研議了7年，行政院版還沒有送出來到底是為什麼？卡在哪裡？什麼原因呢？請做說明。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明一下，最早我們法務部提出的版本是公部門有關的揭弊先立法，私部門的部分另外處理，但是後來有不同的聲音認為公、私部門都要一起來，所以我們又提出了另外一個版本，那後來又屆期不連續，所以又重新研擬。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：重新來，到現在。"],["蔡部長清祥：到最後，最近又有一個確定的政策就是還是公部門先行，私部門的部分就是做行政的指導，最後是這樣的一個結論，我們也總共提出了15個版本。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你自己看到了，你從原本的公先私再來，又打了你一下，說要公、私一起來，到現在又回復只有公，私是協助，那你自己認為這個行政團隊到底出了什麼問題？因為一改再改、一騙再騙，到目前為止，我們的社會是更緊張，人民更不安心，你要不要給新的政府什麼建議？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個研議、研議、研議，研議了7年，所有的立委的版本都進來，7年還看不到版本，你要不要給他們什麼新的建議？"],["蔡部長清祥：確實是很多不同的意見，所以大家很審慎地在討論，我們法務部也是做幕僚作業，我們有很快速地……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也是非常無奈，是不是？我講出你的心裡話，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們也很快，我們在103年就提出了第一個版本。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：103年提出，到現在中華民國一百一十幾年，對不對？你很無奈，所以這個政府到底出了什麼問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是無奈，我們是審慎。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為以結果論來看，民眾是更可憐，民眾得不到政府來做他的靠山，民眾目前為止不知所措，所以我要給社會大眾知道，政府研議，研議了7年到現在還沒有出來，不知道什麼時候會出來，所以本席跟你討論，揭弊者在我們的現行法規裡頭，散居在刑事、勞動、食安、金融等等等等等，那保護的對象、適用的情事、命令的層級都有不同的狀態，也不夠周延，在這樣的情況之下，我們有條件，而且政府有責任，更有這個義務要保護揭弊者的權利，來設揭弊者保護法，這個是非常的重要，你認同嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：認同。好，接下來，我們再來討論，因為總統蔡英文小姐在2017年就承諾要立專法，但是到現在都沒有出來，就誠如你說的，103年到現在。那麼陳建仁院長在面對質詢的時候，他講了3到4次的「研議中」，7年過去了，我們只有看到朝野的版本，我們看不到行政部門的版本，你也非常的無奈，作為一個幕僚者是如此，所以本席要請教，揭弊的範圍跟揭弊的動機，尤其是揭弊的動機，是不是要納入這個系統裡頭來考量？請做說明。"],["蔡部長清祥：細節的問題，我們廉政署是主管機關比較清楚，是不是請他說明一下？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請說明揭弊的動機要不要納入在考量之中，請做說明。"],["莊署長榮松：只要是能夠揭發重大弊案、公務員貪瀆的話，我想這個我們都是鼓勵的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是鼓勵的。"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，因為這個會跟世界接軌，在經濟合作發展組織OECD的部分，它在反賄賂公約裡頭，它跟聯合國反貪腐的公約都有要求「善意」以及具「合理之事證」條款，都有，所以剛剛我也歡喜聽到這個都是鼓勵的，那到時候我們在討論的時候，希望能夠納入。","另外，我要請教，國外對於吹哨者有獎金制度，那我方呢？你們行政部門現在的規劃，你們的立場。"],["莊署長榮松：我們最近送到行政院最新的第15個版本……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第十幾？"],["莊署長榮松：第15版。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第15版，什麼時候送到行政院？"],["莊署長榮松：3月份，3月4日。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：3月份送，現在5月，還是不理你。"],["莊署長榮松：行政院在審議當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：立法院已經在審，它還是不理，行政院會還是不開。"],["莊署長榮松：有關獎金的部分，我們是認為不要規定在這部專法裡面，但是在其他的專法、其他的行政規則裡面，現在很多是有規定的，所以那一部分也是可以適用的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的立場是認為在母法裡頭不要去制定獎金的部分，但是其他細項的專法裡頭可以執行，是嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：可以，我們就委由行政機關他們去訂。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個要好好去商討，因為如果委由其他行政機關，大家層級、層次又不一，統統都不一，大家又亂掉。沒關係，訂一個法本來就是各方的意見大家好好地去討論，因此，我們剛才討論到動機、善意都必須納在我們的考量之中，我們有得到一個方向。","最後，本席要提，你的打詐四法越打越糟糕，損失的錢從二十幾億到現在，去年年底統計八十幾億快90億，這還是顯性的，隱性的還不知道，案件是倍數、倍數的在成長，這個國家、這個政府到底出了什麼事情？橫向都沒有聯繫好的情況之下，如果我們只有提高刑度，但是解決不了這些問題。","我再給你一個數字，這個原因是因為我們從5年前開始，2019年是2萬3,054件，2023年增加到3萬7,984件，虧損的金額從2019年的四十二億多，一直暴增到去年的88.78億，越打越詐，為什麼？越打越詐，人民越痛苦，為什麼？政府出了什麼問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：委員的數字，這個來源不曉得是如何啦！不過全世界都是一樣，打詐的案件是增加的，但是臺灣絕對不是倍數的，臺灣是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣子的說法本席沒有辦法認同，拿一個全世界都在增加，我們就要比爛的啊？所以部長，我知道你是有為的部長，你要勇敢說出來，去討論那個方案，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們是有很多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去討論那個方案，成立了打詐四法……"],["蔡部長清祥：所以提出了打詐專法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：竟然是越打越詐……"],["蔡部長清祥：不會啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人民是沒有辦法接受的嘛！好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：是要再努力啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：研議方案，把方案給本席，好嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，加油！"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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12:08:05","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":617,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:08:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:57:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":961,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時57分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長早安。"],["蔡部長清祥：早。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要接續我昨天質詢的一個議題，因為昨天來的是次長，次長比較沒有道德勇氣，我想部長對於法律的理解應當比較正解，也比較正氣，也比較正道。針對在野黨有立委涉及洩密，那外交部提告了，但是有在野黨的委員要號召委員共同去逼迫外交部具狀給檢方來爭取不起訴，我個人認為這不是用政治干預司法，什麼叫做用政治干預司法？但我昨天質詢完之後，我們的吳宗憲召委是當事人，我聽到他回應說外交部不是司法機關，所以施壓外交部不是關說司法，部長，您覺得呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果以這個個案來看，外交部是當事人，當事人有當事人的主張，它的權益……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以立委不應當用立委的職權……"],["蔡部長清祥：我們檢察官也好，或是法官也好，是站在中立的立場，就事實來判斷。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，那國會議員可不可以利用職務之便，因為他可以監督外交部，外交部是當事人哦！藉由委員的職權之便去質詢外交部，然後去促成，我不敢說是威迫，而是說影響外交部對於這個個案去具狀不要起訴，就法律見解上，您覺得呢？"],["主席：那跟法務部沒關係，你在那邊質詢法務部這個問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，請尊重我的發言時間好嗎？來，適合嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們還是尊重當事人啦！對於個案的處理，檢察官也好，法官也好，他們會依法來行使職權。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們相信檢察官的專業，我在這裡要再次說，我是一個要把道理說清楚講明白的人，不要想要偷換概念，騙三歲小孩。","好，我們看下一個議題。中國昨天說要嚴懲臺灣5位政治評論員，部長，你認識這5位政治評論員嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我個人不認識，但是有看到他們在電視上的節目。"],["吳委員思瑤：有看過哦？有王義川、李正皓、劉寶傑、于北辰及黃世聰，國台辦特別召開記者會說要嚴懲，因為國台辦認為他們的發言都是在打擊中國政府，然後在臺灣島內來進行認知作戰。我想請問一下，就法律論法律，中國要嚴懲臺灣的5位政治評論員，是民間人士哦！還不是過去公布什麼臺獨人士是我們的政治人物，這些都是民間人士，那中國有什麼樣子的權力來針對臺灣的法治說三道四？或者我這樣問好了，在臺灣可以適用中國的法律嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：法律有法律的適用範圍。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，那臺灣有臺灣的治權嘛！中國說要嚴懲臺灣5位政治評論員，請問它是適用哪一國的法律？在臺灣可以用中國的法律嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得委員指的是哪一部分，不過我們法律訂了就是要有它的適用範圍。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，當然。那我想問，如果我們的言論自由是憲法保障的，這些常常在電視來評判時事，我們可能稱他是政治評論員或是名嘴，他們在沒有逾越法律的範圍裡面去行使他們對於政治的評論或是對於中國的評論，他們有違反臺灣的什麼法律嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：臺灣是一個言論自由的國家，如果有違反法律我們當然依法處理，在沒有違反法律的情況下，我們都尊重言論的自由。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以我要為這個主題，因為今天難得可以就教於您，也是最後一次的質詢，我要再一次說，中華民國有我們自己的治權，我們是民主法治的國家，臺灣是臺灣，中國是中國，臺灣的法治輪不到中國來說嘴，輪不到中國來管。憲法第十一條保障臺灣人民的言論自由，這就是一個最高的標準，中華人民共和國用它的憲法也好，要用它的反分裂國家法也好，它的其他法律也好，都沒有辦法適用在中華民國國民、臺灣人民的身上，我想我們法務部的大家長要捍衛臺灣的法治，保護臺灣依法守法的每一位國人是我們共同的責任，是吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們一直如此在做，法務部所屬的機關同仁都是遵守法律，依法來行事。"],["吳委員思瑤：昨天林右昌內政部長針對這個事件，他已經責成、要求內政部，要全力來保護被點名的5位政治評論員的人身安全以及家人的安全，這就是我們的行政院、我們的行政官員對於任何守法合法的國人的安全都應當一起來捍衛跟保護。在法律的角度，捍衛臺灣的法治自由也是蔡部長或是未來的部長，我們都要共同來捍衛的重要價值。","進入我今天的主題，打詐要全方位，個人是支持政院用一個完整的配套來進行打詐四法，如果以今天要提出來的刑法第三百三十九條或是第三百三十九條之四，其實只修刑法是孤掌難鳴，也可能只是小小的微觀而不是全觀。","確實詐騙案件是全體國民心中共同的痛，我也很期待魔高一尺道高一丈，朝野一起來打詐，這是社會的共識，所以新的打詐四法當中，針對電信類、金融類及數位經濟類，這是我們規範的重點。但是以今天所排案的幾個國民黨提案，當然民進黨也有蔡易餘跟王世堅委員的提案，今天有討論的總共是13案，就刑法加重刑責的部分，我個人認為，只針對刑責的部分是末端裁罰去下手，它是比較見樹不見林的，對於整個打詐的配套作為。","所以我非常支持行政院院會剛通過的打詐新四法，我們要新立兩個法，也就是詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，這是專法；第二個，我們要立科偵法，這是立法。對於修法有兩個，就是現在的通保法跟洗錢防制法，都是要跟上國際，也是要在各種正當程序的完備跟導入新興的犯罪偵查手法，我支持要用配套來看待打詐這件事情。","未來這個法其實滿可惜的，如果照主管機關，未來審查可能會在內政委員會，我是爭取這個重要的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例未來在司法法制，最少也應當是聯席啦！因為其他三法可能都是落在司法法制的審查。回到這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例當中，對於刑責部分的規範是，針對高額詐欺，對於複合式的詐欺，對於境外的詐欺，會一律地提高刑度；第二個，我們也增加自首跟自白，增加他減輕責任的規範；第三，我們提高假釋的門檻以及不得假釋的要件都入法化；第四個，我們要擴大對於不法利得的沒收以及義務的沒收，我個人非常支持。在討論這幾法的時候，您也都有參與嘛？法務部都有參與。"],["蔡部長清祥：有，我們在行政院審查都有表示意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以我剛剛講的，這四個面向加重提高罰責，我都支持。","回到今天幾位委員的提案，我個人認為從刑法下手，其實難以去符合各罪間的衡平性跟罪責相當的原則，我是認同也請求，未來在審查應當回到打詐四法當中的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十四條，這樣才是更完備的。不管是加重刑責，不管是對於假釋的門檻要提高，或者是不得假釋的要件更明確，我都認為立這個專法會比從刑法下手更周延，所以您是不是認同我今天的主張？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，因為行政院對於打詐專法還有配套的三個法都已經院會通過了，應該很快就會送到大院來。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我謝謝法務部同仁共同的努力，未來四個法當中，應當三個法至少是司法法制來審議，對於這個專法是不是能夠由司法法制的委員來聯席參與，我相信讓朝野匯聚共識，一起來打擊詐欺犯罪，這會是我們朝野合作很重要的一個基石，很重要的一個好的政策，我也期待這可以成為化解朝野干戈很好的一個重要政策。那您即將離開我們，在公務領域上，未來還有很多法律的專業要就教於您，好不好？我們繼續加油。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：那打詐四法，我們法務部的同仁一起來努力，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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«中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案》案。"}]}},{"id":"152649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3031740823ef59527ec1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fa3b7e37fb90921e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:47:27 - 11:57:38","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":611,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:57:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:47:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時47分）謝謝召委。有請法務部蔡部長。司法院今天是誰出席？陳信旗副廳長嗎？"],["主席：請部長、副廳長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，今天是最後一次質詢你。其實我看在立法院也很好玩，你看這麼多委員的案件透過整個議場這樣質詢，大家可以看得出來，每一個人見解會有所不同，也不用刻意去跟他講法律素養，關於強制辯護案件，為什麼會有強制辯護案件？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然他是罪責比較重嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：重罪。"],["蔡部長清祥：希望要有辯護人能夠維護他法律上的權益。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！所以在立法院他就會把你惡意解讀成，唉喲！這個犯罪的人你還幫他請律師，天啊！有時候整部刑事訴訟法的翻修是集法界、實務大家共同得到的一些經驗，但是碰到政治有時候會有理講不清。","我在這個地方必須要來針對立法院所關心的，過去從第9屆就開始審查，到第10屆，整個揭弊者保護法草案到第9屆的時候因為屆期不連續，這就比較可惜了，就沒有結論。碰到上一屆屆期不連續，隨後我看行政院、司法院及法務部也針對法條再去做討論，也就是說，政府對這一部法令，其實從101年廉政署就已經針對立法去做研究，新政府上來以後也召開了那麼多次的會議，在108年行政院通過揭弊者保護法的草案，沒有成功。","可是我們來看，事實上今年我看法務部也呈報第15版送行政院去做審查，一個重大法案的推動，你過程其實要考慮的面向真的很多，所以我也希望今天立法院的諸公，這些政治家可以來多做一些思考，到底揭弊者這一部保護法的公益揭露應該是要公部門先行，還是單軌？我在這個地方要就教法務部跟司法院，你們的看法到底是什麼？行政院我知道，本來是想說公部門這部分先行，那你們現在的態度是什麼？"],["蔡部長清祥：最早我們也是希望公部門先行，後來有意見認為說公私並行，所以我們再重新整理，把公部門跟私部門揭弊者保護的相關條文再融入。但是現在又遇到了困難，就是有很多不同的意見，所以又回歸到最初，我們說那公部門比較沒有爭議，我們就先提出來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在擔心的是什麼？比如說台灣民眾黨黃國昌委員跟召委吳宗憲委員他們的版本對於證人的保護，這個本席都認同，我相信在立法院大家也會同意，但是在第七條中有提及，不只是針對揭弊者本人的保護，配合弊案之調查跟擔任證人的部分也都在其中，我比較擔心的是什麼呢？臺灣民間的中小企業就有163萬家，超過了98%，九成八都是中小企業，比如說一個企業裡面只有10個人，那有人去吹哨，有人去舉報，真假不知道，好啦！一個公司裡面，8個人要配合調查，然後當證人受到保護，以不調離現職跟調整職務的前提之下，對公司的營運一定會影響很大，到最後如果調查是沒有不法，我跟你說，整個公司差不多都「去了了」了。","我另外一個擔心的是什麼？比如說這些黑函的問題，私人企業其實跟公部門不一樣，你公部門是說一個廉能的政府，這個大家都認同，這是基於公益。如果是私人企業的話，它本來就是以營利為目標，在私人企業裡面基於鬥爭或者是競爭對手的攻擊，到最後，比如說你一發動，假設一家食品公司遭到檢舉，說採購原料的主管收受了原廠商的不法資金，買了不合格的原物料，消息曝光以後，消費大眾的第一個想法是什麼？拒買！公司商譽也必定受損，那你經過冗長的一、兩年調查完以後，哇！沒有，是對手的攻擊，這個都很難去回復，甚至有部分的員工都已經遭到資遣了。","政府可以承擔風險是因為它本來就有足夠的能量，但是針對98%這些中小企業的部分，部長，我不知道你們有沒有去想到中小企業這麼脆弱要承擔風險的問題，或者是針對修法你們會提出怎麼樣的建議跟預防？"],["蔡部長清祥：現在如果決定用公部門先行的話，對私部門我們會用行政指導來幫助它做內部的一些揭弊保護的工作，那成熟了以後，要再立在法律裡面，我們再做下一階段的修法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們的態度也同樣是這樣。"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我們在談的，這整部法令大家擔憂的就是承擔風險能力的問題啦！承擔風險能力，你政府部門沒有問題啊！政府部門我剛剛提過了，大家期待你廉能，全國人民認為政府本來就是公益的啊！那問題就是說，在各個政府、各個機構裡面，很多的機關裡面，其實它本身的政風部門還是比較完整的，所以你說要去吹哨，國人都同意，但是你只要去講到萬一面對中小企業，譬如說只有10人的這個部分，我到現在還是非常非常地擔憂，所以部長，你們提到說公部門先行運作以後，我們也可以去參考不同的契約關係，後續在揭弊的保護，工作權跟回復具體的情況來做適用的話，這個其實都可以作為我們以後的參考。","你看日本、歐盟，它提這個概念其實就跟部長剛剛提到的很類似，它的公部門跟私部門確實就分開囉！所以我想要提一個比較具體的案例，比如說2005年戴立紳那個案子，新竹那個案子，到最後你看他任職在新竹家畜疾病防治所，他也跟很多公務人員一樣，苦讀啊！到最後他考上啦！當他的長官不斷要求他做假帳、公費私用，他良心也發現啦！他去吹哨啦！然後去調查啦！法官最後給他判的是什麼？免刑。哇！他多倒楣你知道嗎？他免刑也一樣啊！新竹縣政府也把他免職啊！那你把他免職以後，他重新要再當公務人員的機會就沒有了。","我講這個案例的意思是說，我們通過這樣的一個法案，也真的必須要去考量到臺灣的現狀，98%的中小企業如果接受揭弊者保護，動彈不得，我現在怕的是這個，他們承受風險的能力。你說戴立紳那是個案，如果說私部門的部分通過以後，背後影響的是上百萬的家庭耶！司法院你們的看法是什麼？"],["陳副廳長信旗：因為揭弊者保護法並不是司法院的權責，我們的態度是只要符合反貪腐公約的規範精神，權衡臺灣整體的狀況之下，我們都尊重權責機關的酌處。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你說的這個，我怎麼會不知道反貪腐？我現在是說一部法律修出來之後，對整個社會現狀的衝擊啦！大家說吹哨，大家說揭弊，這個人民都同意，我講的是我們設計這個法律出來以後的衝擊。","剛才有人在罵部長，說臺灣變成一個詐騙的國家，你們法務部該怎麼辦？照我來看，確實是像部長所講的，就是速辦啊！嚴辦啊！就是這樣子一直在辦啊！這叫做人性的貪婪面，你說全部的重罪都把它拉高到一倍，甚至去判處死刑，人民聽了會很爽，但這個都是反智啊！這個本席都反對，這一種我都反對，好像法律是萬能，全部都是重刑好像就可以遏止了，會去搞詐騙的人叫做「欲食毋討趁」，他要暴利啦！他想到的不會是後面那一些法律效果，他哪會想到這一些？也不是你法務部可以重辦的啊！你把他起訴了，法官到底要不要審判都不一定呢！你看性侵害犯罪，男法官跟女法官判出來的刑度就完全不同啦！財產犯罪，有被詐騙過的跟沒有被詐騙過的，那個感受不同，每一個法官心證判下來，刑責也都完全不同啊！所以我不苛責法務部，但是我們要加強去讓這個執法符合社會的期待，這個倒是應該啦！所以這是最後一次，在這裡跟部長說「莎喲娜拉」，珍重！辛苦了！"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的指教跟指導。"],["莊委員瑞雄：辛苦了。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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11:47:21","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":515,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:47:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:38:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時38分）謝謝主席。本席想請法務部長和司法院陳副廳長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長、副廳長，你們好。立法院多次在司法及法制委員會或是院會討論，針對臺灣成為詐騙者天堂這個情況，我們要想辦法杜絕，要讓它越來越少，最好能夠絕跡。本席想請教部長和副廳長，您或您的親人、朋友，甚至是親人或朋友的朋友，你聽他們說過周圍有人被詐騙嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！都有。現在臺灣的詐騙變成無人不知、無人不曉，不是發生在自己身上，就是發生在周圍的親人身上，所以臺灣的詐騙情況已經適用古代說的「治亂世、用重典」，但本席不知道為什麼政府部門、司法相關機構卻沒有作為，很多時候立法院、立法委員希望加重刑責，可是你們卻好像是詐騙者的代言人，讓大家質疑為什麼不能加重處罰。"],["蔡部長清祥：絕對不是這樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席一一就教，雖然時間不多。首先，社會期待防堵詐騙、遏止詐騙，所以提出加重處罰的修法草案，但你們回復這樣會造成強制辯護，司法院報告的第3頁提到會變成強制辯護，你們擔心這樣會造成人力負擔等各方面的問題，所以希望立法時要全盤評估。如果是這樣，你們為什麼不去修刑事訴訟法？為什麼一個做壞事，傷害我們人民生命財產安全的犯罪者，你們還要替他著想，如果他沒有錢請律師，政府還要幫他請，但政府的資源又不夠，所以不能加重處罰，這是第一個問題。","第二個，在這個報告的第4頁提到，所犯對象超過二人，是否數罪併罰或合併一罪？過去的詐騙案，經常一騙就騙了幾十人、幾百人，有一千案併罰嗎？所以不管他騙了多少人，我們就是希望把詐騙的人繩之以法嘛！本席覺得法務部或是司法院的報告叫做書面反質詢，你們對委員的提案提出反質詢。大家要搞清楚，現在是打擊詐騙，要打詐，這是行政單位的職責，結果行政單位全部甩鍋，或者只要是委員提出來的意見，你們都反對。","本席也認同今天在座的行政單位，你們在法律方面都學有專精，六法全書都非常熟稔，但是請你們不要用法匠的思維，要去感受臺灣人民的情感，立法一定要符合臺灣人民的情感。而且現在詐騙的情況這麼猖獗，大家都希望打詐，可是政府單位不拿出具體作為，還一直對立法委員提出的法案有意見。不好意思，請主席再給本席幾秒鐘。","再來，第4頁又提到，司法實務工作者質疑立委的提案，關於犯罪所得的部分，犯罪所得是不是包含現金以外的財物？我們就在想，你們怎麼會問犯罪所得是不是包含現金以外的財物？犯罪所得當然包含動產、不動產啊！這有什麼好問的？而且這都不是重點，重點是我們要打擊詐騙。第二個就是剛才召委質詢的，民眾希望不要有詐騙，還有如果不小心被詐騙，錢可以還回來。我們希望行政單位可以多一些作為，不要只會提一堆理由卻沒有作為，這是民眾的期待。","雖然本席只有4分鐘，但最後還是要提出你們反質詢的第三項，這也是本席的提案。本席在提案說明寫得很清楚，現在有很多金融機構、電信事業、網際網路事業內神通外鬼進行詐騙，我們都說明了，所謂的金融機構、電信事業，就是金融監督管理委員會組織法第三條所稱的金融機構，以及電信管理法第三條定義之電信事業，你們還在書面報告中一直反質詢，本席實在搞不懂。","我們希望看到你們拿出作為，拿出好的修法版本，能夠打擊詐騙，能夠讓詐騙杜絕，讓它在臺灣絕跡，這才是全民的期待，也是所有立法委員的期待，可是我們沒有看到行政單位這樣做，你們只是提出很多理由，但是沒有具體的作為。","當然，剛才也有很多委員質詢，可是我們看到的是，司法人員、警察、律師等特殊職務的人，還可以利用職務之便進行詐騙。公職人員貪污要加重處罰，為什麼這些司法人員要加重處罰，你們卻反對呢？關於這些問題，因為本席的質詢時間到了，司法院和法務部可不可以用書面回復？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。我先簡單說明一下，委員的目標就是對於打詐要嚴懲。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是委員的目標，是全民的期待。"],["蔡部長清祥：是。剛才聽到委員的說法，我們也非常同意要嚴懲，要能夠保護被害人，要速辦，我們的目標都是一樣的。至於委員提到的幾份報告裡面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們積極的作為在哪裡？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們現在有打詐專法，很快就會送到大院。有關剛才委員提出的，關於書面報告的問題，那是司法院的報告，請司法院說明。"],["陳副廳長信旗：我們絕對沒有反質詢的意思啦！純粹只是針對……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望你們拿出作為嘛！既然法務部這麼說，而且新政府即將上任，我們就是希望看到你們的作為。多久可以讓全民有感？"],["陳副廳長信旗：我們只是希望讓整個法案能夠更周詳而已，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：法案周詳了，詐騙變多了，你選哪一個？"],["蔡部長清祥：並不是說法案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：而且那個部分也沒有很周詳，大家都覺得很可笑。"],["蔡部長清祥：有關三年以上的重罪是不是要強制辯護，這事關被告辯護倚賴權的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這就是問題嘛！他犯罪了，還有這麼多理由？可以修了啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：這部分我們會再提書面報告，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。","另外做議程宣告：上午的會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項處理結束。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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11:38:28","影片長度":"00:13:02","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":782,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:38:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:25:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時25分）麻煩部長。部長你好。"],["蔡部長清祥：召集人好。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天我們是討論有關加重詐欺的部分，關於加重詐欺的案子，民眾最在乎的不是被告判多重，而是錢有沒有辦法拿回來。部長，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們非常同意。所以我們也要求檢察官在偵辦有關詐欺的案件時，一定要想辦法追索他的金流，儘可能的扣押，同時要儘快返還被害人。"],["吳委員宗憲：本席這邊有一個數據，高檢署從112年7月1日統計到113年1月31日，這段時間總共是4,383件，歸還金額是9億9,493萬元。但是有一個很奇怪的地方，本席手上有另外一個數據，這是公聽會時，行政院打詐辦公室給的數據，是112年的打詐成效，取回的被害金額已逾6億元。本席想要釐清一下，這兩個數字不同，各自是怎麼計算的？部長對這部分有沒有研究？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為這是累積的，現在不只9億元，應該是更多，已經達到12億元。每天都有案子在查辦，有查扣的金額，這是一直累積的，剛才幕僚告訴我，現在已經達到12億元以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實行政機關對打詐的部分很努力，本席在這邊也要告訴全民，也滿肯定司法機關的努力。本席上次有提到，本席最初處理這種案子的時候，一本人頭帳戶3,000元，但是現在一本要十幾萬元，這應該就是政府打詐所產生的效果。也就是說，人頭帳戶的本子越來越難買到，因為這些帳戶越來越難取得，所以價格才會飆到那麼高。這個部分也要給政府的行政機關肯定，這是大家努力的結果。","但本席覺得努力的程度還是比不上新增加的詐欺件數，因為詐欺案還是非常多。上次本席有提到，其實我們除了第一層的警示帳戶之外，還要思考第二層、第三層，這些都要繼續追下去，可是我們大部分的案子只追查到第一層的帳戶，但是第一層匯給第二層，第二層再匯給第三層，對於二、三層的帳戶，我們常常都漏掉，沒有繼續追查，這部分可能要麻煩法務部宣導一下，請檢察官注意，就算該案沒有查，也要另外簽一個他字案繼續追查這個部分。","因為有一些案子，例如在A案已經存在的第二層帳戶，因為沒有被清查出來，或者有清查出來但是沒有繼續追查，結果在另外一個案子當中又繼續使用，因為它還是活的帳戶，可以繼續使用。這一塊可能要麻煩一下，從歷次的起訴書或判決書都可以撈到相關資料，再麻煩部長一下。"],["蔡部長清祥：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有一個問題，就是關於打詐專法，其實本席個人對打詐專法的設計是存疑啦！部長知不知道林山田教授以前有一個說法，叫做特別刑法肥大症？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我聽過，我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們現在為了修法，結果搞出專法，把很多東西都放在這個專法裡面，這樣會不會和刑法離得越來越遠？因為刑法裡面有很多罪刑是有平等性原則，今天訂了很多專法，會不會造成它和刑法原本的概念越離越遠？例如我們的打詐專法裡面，等於是把實體法、訴訟法，甚至是行政罰、金管會等等，全部都加進去，這套法以後在使用上，因為這是貴部提出來的，所以以後包括預算的編列，或者由誰領軍，會不會變成有多頭馬車的問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：向委員說明一下，打詐專法不是法務部提出來的，是由內政部彙整相關部會一起討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們去開會的時候有提供意見嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們當然也有表達關於刑法處罰方面的意見。懲詐的部分是法務部主管，如果特別法能夠容納其他行政措施，更完整的把有關打詐的法律容納在一個專法裡面，大家在施用上是比較方便的。當然，林老師的理論是說，特別法太多有違刑法的理論，不過在實務上要快速、有效的解決，如果有專法，把相關的行政措施、刑事處罰全部放在一起，在適法上會比較清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這個部分當初在立法的時候，法務部應該都有參與，相較於內政部，其實法務部應該更有法律方面的專業。所以本席當時才會提出，為什麼法務部沒有建議應該就刑法或刑事訴訟法修改，反而另外成立一個專法？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為還有很多行政的措施，包括金管會的意見，還有內政部、NCC，各行政部門有一些阻詐、堵詐、識詐的部分，全部都納入這個專法。向委員稍微澄清一下，打詐專法是經過行政院院會通過，剛才林委員問的揭弊者保護法還在審查中，還沒有通過啦！對於這兩個法案，我剛才沒有說清楚，現在再做說明。打詐專法已經經過院會通過，應該很快就會送來；揭弊者保護法還在審查當中。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的，沒有關係，因為這個部分我們有提出自己的草案建議，本席也有提出對這個法案的質疑。其實本席很擔心一點，像這種案子，將來連預算都很難編列，對不對？本席個人是這樣覺得。因為從以前的實務經驗來看，像這種匯集不同部會，大家一起配合做這件事情，將來預算到底要怎麼編列？本席覺得這些都是問題，不過沒有關係，這部分我們以後再見招拆招。","本席再請問一下，目前詐欺集團的手已經伸到司法界，最近發生的事情，不知道部長有沒有去了解一下？桃園地檢這個檢察官是怎麼回事？"],["蔡部長清祥：高檢署有在了解。桃園地檢和臺北地檢都有發新聞稿說明，一切都還在深入了解當中。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，畢竟是偵查中的案子，本席就不多問。部長，不過本席還是要說一件事，從桃園的吳檢察官和橋頭地院的石法官，這兩個都涉入詐欺，其實這對司法形象是重創，而且這段時間也有很多高階警察涉入。"],["蔡部長清祥：如果真的有檢察官涉入的話，我們絕不寬貸。但是目前還沒有明確證據指認吳檢察官是誰，甚至有可能是冒名也不一定，現在高檢署還在深入查證當中。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有問題，所以本席剛才有提到，因為是偵查中的案子，本席就不多說。不過本席必須另外提一個問題，從這件事情我們看到另外一個狀況，就是偵查大公開。說真的，某一個週刊現在被大家笑是法務部公報，因為法務部每次查什麼都會洩密。如果今天法務部是和警察一起處理，還可以說是警察洩的密，但很多時候是法務部底下的檢察官、調查官、廉政署，只有這幾個單位在查，也是洩密洩得很誇張，這樣法務部就比較沒有辦法推責任嘛！","你看，最近很多案子幾乎都是搜索完之後，週刊就鉅細靡遺的報導出來，有一些當然是猜測，這本席可以理解，是記者用猜的，但是有些連數字、名字都有，對於這一點，部長，你們還是需要要求檢察官或者調查局等等，要尊重偵查不公開的法令規定，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：一定要尊重。我們會要求調查局和高檢署，違反偵查不公開的一定要徹查。我們也一再教育檢察官，當你辦理任何案子，合作的執法機關，不管是調查局、警方，都要有所提示，絕對不能洩漏偵查的秘密。但是洩漏秘密的管道很多，有時候是當事人，有時候是律師，不能說全部都是執法人員，但是執法人員的部分，我們一定嚴格要求。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。最後1分鐘，請教部長一個問題，這是昨天在這邊發生的。請教部長，因為部長是檢察官出身，非常熟悉刑事訴訟，以刑事訴訟法來說，告訴人和被告在告訴乃論之罪的時候，被告找告訴人認錯、溝通或是條件交換，請他撤告，這樣有沒有干預司法？在當事人之間。"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是合法的調解、和解，希望能夠促成案件和平解決，能夠達成協議，撤回告訴，這是我們檢察官所樂見的。"],["吳委員宗憲：第二個，如果是非告訴乃論之罪，被告找告訴人或告發人，一樣向他認錯、道歉，或條件交換、溝通，希望他具狀給檢察官表示不再追究，這樣有沒有干涉司法？"],["蔡部長清祥：吳召集人也是檢察官出身啦！我們在辦理非告訴乃論的案子時，也是希望能夠促成雙方和解，和解後可以解決民事的問題，刑事的部分也可以從輕處理。我們檢察官也有很多方法可以解決紛爭，非告訴乃論案件不是不能談和解，所以我們也鼓勵這麼做，這樣也可以減輕訟源。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。部長也很清楚，只要不介入檢察官或法官辦案，基本上就不是干涉司法，當事人之間的和談、道歉或條件交換，請求告訴人撤告，和請求告訴人具狀給檢察官、法官表示不再追究，這應該沒有干涉司法吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：只要在法律的規範範圍內執行和解，促成雙方解決紛爭，這是大家所樂見的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我們以前常這樣做，這樣本席了解，謝謝部長。也謝謝部長這段時間這麼辛苦，陪著我們一起審查這些法案，謝謝部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的指教，我們也收穫很多，但是也有很多誤解，我希望能夠有機會讓法務部說明，譬如昨天好像為了我沒有出席有一些爭議。我完全尊重委員會的決定，委員會同意我請假，我才敢不出席，而且我前天晚上確實已經準備搭最後一班車趕回來，在沒有獲得委員會同意請假的情況下，我是要趕回來的，後來在9點40分接到訊息，我可以留在花蓮繼續完成預定的行程，所以我才留下來，我是非常尊重委員的。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，這部分沒問題，所以昨天在程序發言的時候，有委員說要提譴責，我們是告訴他，因為……"],["蔡部長清祥：如果說我逃避，我是絕對不會逃避的，各位也知道我平常到委員會，都是很真誠的表達法務部的政策和意見，謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有問題，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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所產生的效果也就是說人頭賬戶的本子越來越難買到這些賬戶越來越難取得所以它金額才會飆到那麼高那我覺得這個部分也是要給政府的行政機關肯定"},{"start":151.281,"end":154.804,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":164.878,"end":178.084,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條"},{"start":193.371,"end":200.836,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":215.555,"end":234.804,"text":"還有一個問題就是我們提出來的這個打詐專法其實因為我個人對於打詐專法這個設計我是有存疑因為部長知不知道有一個林三田教授以前有一個說法叫做特別刑法肥大政是我聽過我知道"},{"start":236.598,"end":242.52,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院第12"},{"start":259.104,"end":265.747,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":279.787,"end":280.907,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":307.017,"end":314.96,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律"},{"start":333.448,"end":348.876,"text":"當初在立法的時候法務部應該都有參與嘛那相較於行政那個內政部其實法務部應該是更在法律上面的專業所以我當時就是想說為什麼法務部沒有建議其實應該是就刑法或刑事訴訟法去修改而是另外成立一個專法"},{"start":349.696,"end":371.124,"text":"因為還有很多行政的措施包括金管會他們的意見還有內政部還有NCC各個行政部門他們有一些主詐、賭詐還有市詐的部分都全部納在這個專法裡面那跟委員我稍微澄清一下打詐專法是經過行政院院會已經通過"},{"start":371.784,"end":373.486,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":390.74,"end":397.347,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":413.308,"end":420.253,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":442.946,"end":470.384,"text":"高檢署他有在瞭解那桃園地檢還有台北地檢他們都有新聞稿來說明那一切都還在深入瞭解當中那這樣齁因為畢竟偵查這種案子我想說我就不多問部長不過我還是要講一個東西從桃園的吳檢察官跟橋頭的司法官這兩個都涉入詐欺其實這對司法形象是重創"},{"start":471.405,"end":480.011,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":497.862,"end":504.749,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":514.588,"end":531.626,"text":"那你如果說法務部今天是跟警察一起處理你還可以說警察洩的密但是很多時候是法務部底下的檢察官、調查官、廉政署就只有這幾個單位查那也是洩密洩得很誇張那這個法務部就比較沒有辦法推責任嘛"},{"start":534.002,"end":539.265,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具"},{"start":553.263,"end":572.954,"text":"其他這些調查局或什麼去跟他們講還是要尊重尊重偵查不公開的法律規定一定要尊重我要求調查局還有高檢署對於違反偵查不公開一定要徹查那我們也一再教育檢察官當你辦理任何的案子也要"},{"start":573.494,"end":600.768,"text":"跟合作的執法機關調查局警方都要有所提示絕對不能洩漏有偵查的秘密但是洩漏秘密的管道很多有時候是當事人有時候是律師不能說全部是執法人員但是執法人員我們一定的嚴格的要求最後一分鐘請教部長一個問題這是昨天在這邊發生的我想請教部長就是"},{"start":602.113,"end":620.428,"text":"以刑事訴訟來說,因為部長是檢察官出身,非常熟悉刑事訴訟。那以刑事訴訟來說,告訴人跟被告在告訴難論之罪的時候,被告找告訴人認錯溝通或是條件交換請他測告,這個有沒有干預司法?"},{"start":621.722,"end":639.627,"text":"這個如果合法的在調解和解當中希望能夠促成案件能夠和平的解決能夠達成協議撤回告訴這個是我們檢察官所樂見的嘛第二個如果是非告訴難論之罪的時候"},{"start":641.84,"end":651.109,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":656.069,"end":678.382,"text":"我想吳昭吉人也是檢察官出身啦我們在辦理非告訴乃論的案子也是有希望能夠促成雙方的和解一方面和解完了以後可以解決民事的問題那形式的話可以重清來處理嘛我們檢察官也有很多的方法可以來解決紛爭非告訴乃論案件不是說不能來談和解所以我們也鼓勵啊那這樣的話"},{"start":679.022,"end":701.28,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":702.13,"end":719.908,"text":"只要在法律的規範範圍內來執行和解促成雙方來解決紛爭這個是大家所樂見的是我想我們以前都常常這樣做啊那好這樣我了解好那部長謝謝部長謝謝部長這段時間這麼辛苦陪著我們一起在做這些法案的審查"},{"start":720.268,"end":721.009,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":750.868,"end":771.022,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．一）委員馬文君等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．事由．委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．"},{"start":780.128,"end":780.162,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"}]}},{"id":"152646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3087b2eec816ab76a83ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f22026100640eea3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:04:13 - 12:12:43","影片長度":"00:08:30","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":510,"end_time":"2024-05-16T12:12:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T12:04:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時4分）先請陳次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你好。我們今天拿非常具體的數據來檢驗蔡英文政府的交通安全成績單，你看這個圖，蔡英文是民國105年5月20號上任，你會發現這個圖有像趨勢圖，每一年都在緩步上升。本來他上任那一年的交通事故有30萬5,556件，到了去年突破了40萬件，顯然蔡政府這8年的交通安全事故是嚴重的，這是從交通事故的事件數來看。","我們進一步來看死傷人數，去年交通事故死傷人數到了新高，有54萬人，次長，同樣地從105年去看，那時候的死傷人數是40萬5,544人，到了去年已經跳到了54萬人了。更驚悚也讓我們很難過的是兒童的死傷人數，去年爆衝到1萬1,858人，我平時質詢都笑嘻嘻的，今天面對這個數目字我都很悲傷。而且你可以看到，105年的時候才8,000多位而已，但110年到112年，大家看那個趨勢，有沒有像沖天炮？這到底是發生什麼事情？為什麼這麼嚴重？整個交通事件緩步上升、一年一年上升，死傷的數目字，特別是兒童的，就我的這個統計，請問這樣的成績是不是對不起臺灣民眾？我知道交通部有很多重要的建設，對國家是有貢獻的，可是在交通安全這一塊，從事件數跟死傷人數來講，這個真的對不起臺灣人民。","你看一下馬英九的任期當中，雖然一開始是高的，但它整體趨勢是往下降的。蔡總統從105年開始，這個曲線就一直緩步地往上升，這樣對人民可以交代嗎？到底發生什麼事情？次長，不好回答，是嗎？沒關係，那就加油，這個人命關天的事情，加油！我知道交通部大家也很辛苦，可是從這個數據看起來，真的是讓人難過的，要好好改善，好不好？","改善就要提出藥方，最近有修道路交通管理處罰條例，我在擔心的是，像很多人就說這會不會讓道安的問題更惡化呢？我舉一個例子，大家看一下，道路紅線的違停，它明顯影響到視線，對不對？大家開車或是走路，都會碰到這個問題，可是現在開始不記點了，這攸關行人的安全，可是現在限縮了這個檢舉，像這個你們有沒有去想一想，在不記點、不檢舉之後，這還是會攸關行人的安全、攸關很多人的安全，所以這個還要再好好檢討一下，好不好？","第二個，我看到你們的預算書，112年跟113年交通部要補助10億元建置科技執法設備，全國計345個地方，這是卯起來開單嗎？是把人民當提款機嗎？這個也請想一下，好不好？在比較先進的國家，科技執法不是不行，可是逕行舉發的比例都是在往下降，而且你在逕行舉發的同時，你一定要達到改善交通安全的問題，這個是雙軌要做，好不好？","我具體的提出三個建議，違規的陷阱要先改善，這是很多民眾都非常在意的，第一個，上下客貨的空間要先做好，不要讓職業駕駛人被迫去違規，這問題很嚴重，對不對？這個要解決，好不好？","第二個，同一地點同一違規連續開罰單，如果照目前科技執法逕行舉發的，我想包括交通部的官員都可能碰到這個問題，你收到那個罰單是多久以後的事情？要一、兩個月，這樣都來不及了，如果是當場勸發，他就不會再發生第二次，所以這個問題是要解決的，好不好？這沒辦法達到勸導的目的，所以要怎麼解決這件事情你要去做。","第三個，如果發現一個路口常常有違規，可是改善了一段時間後，改善幅度都很小，你至少有三個地方要檢討，包括道路的標線、號誌的設計、路型是不是調整，是不是這樣？本席提出這三個大的點，交通部回去可以好好檢討嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，原則上這三個建議，其實我們目前已經開始在做了，像上下客貨的空間，我們也要求地方政府開始去做這樣一個空間的劃設；至於第二個提到的連續舉發，其實連續舉發這一個事情，在處罰條例也有相關規定，然後同一個地點希望剛才達到委員特別提到的，處罰能夠達到目的以後再做處罰這樣一件事情，其實就我的瞭解以往也有曾經處理過，是不是處理過了以後又有情況發生，這個我們會再來檢討；至於後面有關路口改善的部分，這是一定的，我們現在正在做相關的路口改善，所以原則上委員的這些建議，我們會積極地來辦理。"],["張委員啓楷：我們要去改善、要落實，這是人命關天的事情，你們的工作是很重要的，每一個事件都可能有人死傷，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["張委員啓楷：全世界比較先進國家都不是以罰錢為重，你要做科技的執法，它應該只是個手段，不是目的，對不對？，所以比較先進的國家，都在降低逕行舉發的比例，全世界應該都是這樣，對不對？所以本席要求交通部要協同警政署減少科技執法逕行舉發的比例，我看你去年開了1,750萬張的罰單，裡面超過8成全部都是用科技執法逕行舉發的，你能不能把這個比例降下來？五成可能馬上做不到，至少我定一個目標，能不能每年至少下降個5%，好不好？可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們來跟警政署來協調，因為這裡頭的逕行舉發，有很多是收費未繳等等的情況。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。不好意思，超過時間了，我問最後一個問題，這是很多民眾反映的，112年到現在被逕行舉發違規記點超過12點的，本來裁決完之後就要吊照，對不對？我來問一下，因為新法馬上就要上路了，修完法之後，依照法律的規定，應該採取對人民比較有利的那一方，對不對？所以這個你們會做什麼決定？"],["林司長福山：這部分跟委員報告一下，新修正的處罰條例第六十三條，對於一年記12點、吊扣駕照兩個月的這個規定並沒有改。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有改，至少就是用新法會比較有利於民眾，所以目前如果沒有被你們裁決、不會吊照的，新法以後也不會吊，對不對？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，修正後新舊在這一點規定都沒有改，記12點就是要吊扣兩個月。"],["張委員啓楷：新法之前，如果沒有裁決就不會吊，新法之後也不會吊？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，這一點規定都沒有修正，新舊法都一樣，只要記滿12點，就是要吊扣兩個月。"],["張委員啓楷：所以還是會吊扣。"],["林司長福山：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道交通部可能很辛苦，貢獻也很大，可是至少剛剛講的交通違規陷阱應先去改善，不要只是把人民當提款機，而且交通安全，行人、國人的安全請一起努力。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會繼續加油。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝，張啓楷委員發言完畢。","現在請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我看你今年去年開了1750萬張的罰單裡面過百箱全部都是用科技執法進行舉發的你能不能把這個比例把它降下來"},{"start":405.083,"end":409.726,"text":"這個我們來跟這個警政署來協調啦因為他這裡頭進行舉報有很多的是那個是這個這個收費收費未繳的等等的這種最後問一點不然是超過時間問最後一個問題很多很多民眾反映的"},{"start":434.742,"end":453.351,"text":"現在112年到現在被進行舉發的那個違規祭典超過12點的你本來裁決完之後就要調照嘛對不對我問一下那因為新法新法馬上就上就上來了嘛修完法之後依照法律的規定應該採取對人民比較有利那一方對不對所以這個你們會做什麼決定"},{"start":456.49,"end":477.821,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下新修正的處罰條例63條裡面對於這一年計12點吊扣駕照兩個月這個規定並沒有改沒有改所以至少就是用新法比較有利於民眾所以目前如果沒有被你們裁決不會吊照的新法以後也不會吊對不對沒有沒有跟委員報告新修正這一點規定都沒有改就是12點就是要吊扣兩個月"},{"start":478.581,"end":479.782,"text":"交通違規這個現景要先去改善"},{"start":499.772,"end":507.106,"text":"要只是把人民當提款機而且那個交通安全行人跟國人這個安全好不好請一起努力繼續加油我們繼續加油謝謝市長謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"152645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e78b4d9872dbb0783ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0ffa5ec6075ae9718d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:56:56 - 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您看第一頁 這個私有的運具 就是說我們每年新車的量跟報費的量大概差了將近快10萬這個運具就是說私有車輛或者運輸車輛越來越多"},{"start":38.396,"end":50.557,"text":"越來越多所以變成說道路會變成常態性的擁捨你在做更多的路或者在拓寬還是沒辦法趕上這個車輛的這個增加的速度這個有沒有什麼解放"},{"start":52.712,"end":77.864,"text":"我想委員特別提到這大概是交通管理上一個很嚴肅的一個問題就是如何讓私人運具的管理能夠有一定的管理然後其實最大的問題還是要增加這個相關公共運輸的使用那另外是一個減少這個交通履次的一個產生那如果產生交通履次的減少以後當然私人運具的使用就會減少"},{"start":77.964,"end":78.384,"text":"提出這個問題想辦法解決是你們的責任"},{"start":95.782,"end":110.62,"text":"我想這個我們會來想如何處理其實我們在2050的近年排放裡頭有關綠色運輸的推動上這個也是一個重要的事情我這個問題丟給你 你要好好想方式我來解決因為台鐵那個楊總經理 黃總經理"},{"start":114.123,"end":132.237,"text":"黃總,你跟市政府江山捷運站6月底馬上要通車了,那你這個聯絡的那個天橋到底這個委管,一個天橋管理都沒有辦法,這個桃園共識這很奇怪,這部分你想辦法解決,你不用打呼我,你打呼我可能要5分鐘。"},{"start":133.547,"end":159.513,"text":"你回去跟市政府、結運局好好討論一下這個不是什麼大部分問題為什麼我已經開了三四次協調會都跟部長講了還是沒辦法解決所以這個部分如果地方政府的確有困難你們這個中央政府把他扛下來啦好不好那另外我之前提到我們要增加這個南歐北歐的航點那個在總質詢也提過你們到底有沒有進度啊"},{"start":160.836,"end":184.014,"text":"但是這個慰問不要這個慰問就是事故就進遷了然後什麼說明資料也都沒有我跟委員報告這個我可能真是不是瞭解我可能要背後提供給委員現在秘書長秘書長會接新的部長齁你再跟他提醒一下這是我關心齁是是這個布局要全球化南歐北歐也是一個"},{"start":185.516,"end":214.418,"text":"高雄對外的航點高雄也很重要啦但是你這個航點的多元化也很重要這部分這個再加油一下好不好是是是那另外這個幾個道路建設這個當然是跟跟這個比較有相關啦來這個跟公路局啊台六十一線啊台六十一線的部分這個我已經問了好多次好多次難言這也是我提的這個昭偉可以證明這是我自己寫提案"},{"start":215.936,"end":232.089,"text":"我自己寫提案才有台61線兩年本來是要中文溪口一直跨不過中文溪口我說不能這個停留在中文溪口一定要往南我說我對高雄市的消息沒有辦法負責沒有辦法沒有辦法交代所以你是從沿海這是濱海國道濱海國道對不對"},{"start":233.67,"end":236.033,"text":"這部分你們就能不能多多多積極多用心一點"},{"start":250.211,"end":272.741,"text":"跟委員報告就是臺六一南沿現在在可沿就是現在確實曾文溪橋往南包括臺南段的跟高雄段的那我們預計大概是8月底大概就是整個可沿報告那包括委員所關心的就是說永安交流道這一個因為它下來以後要怎麼接的這個地區的聯絡道我想我們把它納入這一個可沿裡面這個你們繼續辦理再把這進度跟我說"},{"start":275.743,"end":296.805,"text":"北高雄永續提升人行安全計畫特別是非都會區都會區當然它有很多的資源北高雄是非都會區提案那麼多北高雄只有一案這個比例上失衡了你們重新再檢討一下我會再召集會議找高雄市政府交通局"},{"start":297.796,"end":298.176,"text":"主席"},{"start":323.434,"end":345.399,"text":"這幾天討論了好多次這局長你是不是再積極一點目前他因為那個花苞有點延誤那目前已經招標出去了招標出去了那你要趕快招標出去如期如質完工是是那台資教養縣我也關心這個沒有千次也有百次加封加薪跟團體三個里的意見你們調查結果怎麼樣台資教養縣"},{"start":346.735,"end":347.055,"text":"主席站起來再給我25秒"},{"start":374.475,"end":399.963,"text":"岡山區維水平交道這個台鐵台鐵維水平交道我已經看了沒有百次也有十幾次維水平交道怎麼樣去改善是不是不要推來推去是你們要就趕快承擔一下因為請我們南區處去你要親自督軍總經理你要親自督軍你去看一下你去看一下就解決了就波龍你做台鐵就不用錢"},{"start":401.758,"end":401.918,"text":"邱志偉委員"}]}},{"id":"152644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309b9184c3e2a03d0c3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f73c3e5e214b715b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:50:54 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一個營養師他可能要跑五到七間的學校根本沒有辦法全面照顧那他的負擔這麼的高未來營養師的分配也應該要入法不應該是讓有能力的有專業能力的反而沒辦法顧及到全面性這樣才能真正落實小朋友的吃的健康還有我們的午餐秘書那剛剛陳如昆城委員提的如果我們的午餐秘書他"},{"start":236.805,"end":237.505,"text":"實材除了人力預算"},{"start":266.141,"end":266.441,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":291.937,"end":292.037,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":316.277,"end":344.236,"text":"所以專法的這個方向目標我們大概就是會期待是不是在整個的分配預算裡邊應該要減少成鄉差異做法要一致那大概更期待的是我們的營養午餐的行政秘書的工作簡化還有營養師的配置要合理降低負擔還有應該要研議是否設置我們的食品安全的技師的認證的機制食材要選用透明運輸合格"},{"start":344.636,"end":345.637,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"152642","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3046d9b56a9c831c489d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0f28b9a2276f57a04d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:54:55 - 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現在是夏天還好喔那如果到冬天的時候 有時候你到這個時候你送到學校去那其實在孩子們 他們在吃這個營養午餐的時候其實他不是吃熱騰騰的 等於是吃溫的我不敢說是冷的 但是他可能是溫的那對於這個孩子們來講 這個如果在在冬天的這個學校裡面吃到的是這個溫的 不是熱的的這個營養午餐 其實家長其實都會蠻在意的"},{"start":65.167,"end":84.758,"text":"我自己是來自新北市過去在新北市曾經有發生過營養午餐的一些弊端後來我們有加以調整讓營養午餐不論在經費的來源或是在監督這方面都讓它更加透明化"},{"start":85.938,"end":96.564,"text":"新北市很大 它有城鄉差距所以我們也都鼓勵 現在也持續在做盡量利用學校的閒置空間 它能夠來做自立廚房我們自己的選區 三重其實現在也正在做"},{"start":104.107,"end":128.611,"text":"致力廚房能夠提供學生熱騰騰的午餐我相信是新北市或許其他的縣市也都有陸陸續續在做這是一個方式另外一個方式就是在我們跟團善業者的溝通當然這個團善業者就成本的考量就是說你現在每個孩子每個家長願意付出多少的營養午餐的費用我覺得也"},{"start":132.824,"end":133.004,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":156.317,"end":156.777,"text":"李坤城教育部長"},{"start":185.692,"end":209.253,"text":"不管教育部有沒有這版本至少我們這麼多立委所提出來的版本我們就是公聽會結束之後就開始要行動因為這個會期如果撇開一些爭議性的一些對立性的一些法案其實像這種學校的午餐法這個是相當重要我相信這應該是更多家長"},{"start":210.174,"end":210.294,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":232.242,"end":259.177,"text":"那當然現在學校大部分都是用這個教育局的教育局來做處理但是呢這個教育局在處理的部分這個他可能就是一個科來做處理那所以說變成他的這個權限他比較低那你如果說要來讓這個孩子們的這個午餐吃得更好的話那當然你成績要拉高那你成績要拉高的話你至少在中央的這一部分如果有個專法來做處理的話那當然這個這個成績會比較高"},{"start":261.438,"end":285.345,"text":"我們在地方上落實的話我覺得就會比較具有參考性的一個作用一個指標性的一個作用因為一個學校的營養午餐它從食材的烹煮、運輸、費用的訂定然後這個公餐模式的不一樣你是團餐的、自立廚房的等等之類的都會影響到整個午餐的品質"},{"start":289.889,"end":301.363,"text":"教育部要通過學校的午餐專法 積極整合各部會的職責讓我們的孩子們不是只有吃得飽"},{"start":302.684,"end":302.984,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":323.683,"end":352.223,"text":"我們要補足校園的專業能力我剛有聽到一位是擦腳國小的老師嗎因為他的工作非常繁重那如果我們有一個專業的這個午餐秘書的話那我相信像他這種例子會越來越多因為他是待課老師所以他的工作就會非常多所以我認為說要有專責的這個午餐的秘書這是相當的一個重要"},{"start":353.044,"end":355.645,"text":"確保學校營養午餐經費使用透明化鼓勵學校設置自立廚房 縮短食物運送及保存時間 減少食安風險"},{"start":369.071,"end":394,"text":"所以說這個要補人這個健全學校這個午餐從業人員的人力我剛才說過這一個這個午餐秘書要有專任的那第二個補專業這個要強化營養師的人數那建置營養教師的這個系統然後最後的這個營養午餐不只讓學生吃而已我們希望它成為這一個我們食安教育食能教育的一環那以上這個做個說明 謝謝"},{"start":395.852,"end":396.253,"text":"李坤城委員"}]}},{"id":"152641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30c467530e6d486d5b9d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0faa5b8daa13db02115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:48:37 - 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學校 老師 家長"},{"start":77.62,"end":77.841,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":92.958,"end":92.998,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":112.603,"end":138.568,"text":"所以對於預算來源還有所謂午餐價格的級距以及相關的補助經費都應該有一個比較明確的方案那也不會讓地方政府變成是他自己想辦法自己看狀況自己碰運氣那更重要的是我們午餐他如果能夠跟農業尤其是我們的中南部包括農委會這邊能夠一起合作台北市就是用"},{"start":139.548,"end":140.028,"text":"對於目前現在的現行的狀況"},{"start":168.345,"end":195.199,"text":"各縣市各行其事的狀況﹐我們希望盡快的終結﹐能夠讓所有的﹐不管是各個學校﹐不要是老師跟校長的事﹐而是它是全中華民國﹐所有﹐我相信所有國民的事﹐所以今天這個案子的公聽會﹐我們希望它不再只是一個公聽會﹐接下去教育部也可﹐應該要提出他們的版本﹐否則接下去再等﹐我們不知道還要等多久﹐那現在﹐"},{"start":196.46,"end":196.74,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":214.295,"end":214.415,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":236.989,"end":237.229,"text":"黃珊珊議員"},{"start":263.553,"end":290.402,"text":"高中：是不是包括高中：都可以討論：但是立法迫在眉睫我們也希望針對午餐專法立法的過程我們希望只要有意見的人趕快提出來而不是一再的用不同意見來耽誤這個午餐專法的定例那最重要的是我們希望公聽會上各界的意見重複性都很高了這些團體在我們2月22號的公聽會都來過都講過"},{"start":292.003,"end":292.363,"text":"新政府部長 院長"},{"start":310.854,"end":337.548,"text":"把午餐專法當成他第一優先應該要來重視的問題那另外就是在立法院的教育文化委員會我也非常感謝昭緯今天召開這樣的公聽會其實大家的聲音都很響亮不管是包括家長教師以及業者沒有人想要把午餐挫插也沒有人想要讓孩子吃不好只是怎麼樣讓孩子吃得好制度健全老師責任"},{"start":339.269,"end":339.309,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":361.71,"end":361.75,"text":"黃珊珊"}]}},{"id":"152640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc304b8f8325e995cf833ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f43ecd620c67a78185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:44:34 - 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寬22公尺 總經費32億由台中市跟帳化縣府共同出資 中央補助興建"},{"start":64.164,"end":91.117,"text":"是近年來以台中市跟彰化來講規模最大的橋梁工程從興建之前兩地要往返必須要超過半個小時的時間這條橋如果興建完成之後只要兩分鐘所以預計在2026年的7月完工這也是過去在擔任立委的期間一直努力爭取的一個重要建設"},{"start":91.977,"end":106.043,"text":"那我在今年的年初也有跟台中市府到現場去會刊那現在進度有超前那我想要請教市長你可不可以告訴我目前和平大橋的進度的狀況"},{"start":113.068,"end":129.432,"text":"台中市政府跟彰化縣政府兩地有出資我們交通部是補助彰化縣因為整個工程的施作是由台中市政府目前我們了解進度是正常這個部分我們是不是再確認一下台中市政府的施作進度"},{"start":131.332,"end":149.499,"text":"那未來就是說河美大橋可以作為大渡地區跟臺中港區的連外道路那藉由河美大橋往這個河美交流道那下來就是跟我們的這個美港公路臺61乙線做一個銜接那行政院已經核定臺61乙線高價化全長6.35公里167億由中央來負擔依據2034年完工"},{"start":158.804,"end":160.512,"text":"那和平大橋預計在"},{"start":162.728,"end":190.219,"text":"一百一十五年一百一十五年通車那所以這個南彰化端的部分已經有就是說已經算是有解決這個未來的一個路網的問題但是在北端就是在大渡這一邊在大渡這一邊文昌路銜接這個護岸路然後一直往台中港這個部分我想要請教這個交通部這一邊有沒有做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":193.3,"end":216.41,"text":"台中地區的這一邊因為它是屬於就是市區道路那基本上就是市區道路的話就是說大概市政府然後有需要的話大概會爭取到這個內政部的生活圈道路來協助那另外一邊確實在交通部這邊的話才是公路系統的這邊就是銜接這個台611的美港公路這一塊的話我們公路局在處理"},{"start":217.987,"end":245.398,"text":"我們都知道工程越晚做越貴就像我剛剛提到這個海美交流道從2013年2013年的時候提案的時候預算是24.6億到108年核定的時候變成32億變成32億那我們剛剛都提到說這個台中市這一邊的話是應該要生活圈都是計劃內的部分生活圈的部分"},{"start":246.118,"end":264.495,"text":"那所以我們生活圈4號線跟這個就非常相關了就是說從烏日的高鐵特區藉由從慶思縣延伸到榮景的這個台61線西濱然後可以做一個這個高架道路的一個銜接"},{"start":265.316,"end":281.646,"text":"那透過烏日的環河路穿越王田交流道然後呢一路都沿著這個護岸護岸堤防來做興建那其實在2020年的時候環平就已經通過了總長15.4公里那預計開闢所需要的總經費打274億"},{"start":290.151,"end":313.363,"text":"270億那用地費就佔了85億的部分這部分臺中市政府在去年已經追加預算辦理先期的規劃檢討那包含都市計畫內的一個計畫變更作業那這部分不管未來是都市計畫外的交通部或計畫內的這個國土署的部分本席都希望中央能夠給予地方最大的支持可不可以"},{"start":315.657,"end":332.626,"text":"剛剛委員特別提到他正在做相關的一個可行性的研究那後續如果相關建設計畫在那個我想我們看內政部如何來救這個工程的經費看怎麼樣來予以協助"},{"start":334.207,"end":353.25,"text":"中央一定我認為的中央就是要給地方政府大力的協助才有可能把這個交通路網做一個全面現在整個台中市的生活圈道路不管是中環大環銜接國道3國道4國道1還有74 61整個路網的建置就是"},{"start":354.151,"end":354.171,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},{"id":"152639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc301cedf71ecae5cea13ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f842b47c36b40ae4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:37:42 - 11:44:15","影片長度":"00:06:33","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":393,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:44:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:37:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時37分）好，謝謝主席。本席今天要詢問的是監理站和橋梁的問題。先請陳次長。"],["主席：請陳次長以及公路局陳局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長、局長，本席想請教一下，現行監理站報考機車考照一位難求，本席不曉得其他縣市的狀況，但是在宜蘭縣，常常因為名額限制，導致年輕人報考的時候一位難求。這個部分想請教一下，因為聽起來好像每次開放的名額大概是40至50名，可是有部分是和駕訓班配合，所以在名額開放的當下，可能只剩下少數名額，結果常常導致秒殺的情況。對於這個部分，監理站有沒有因應的措施？或是能夠增加名額，讓我們年輕學子要考照的時候不會這麼困難？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為現在考照要預約，畢竟這樣才能知道每天大概有多少年輕朋友要去考照，而且駕訓班也有考照的需求，所以兩邊都有需求量。而且現在要考照的話，基本上我們會設定一些門檻，包括你要在網路上測驗，因為我們希望他不是只為了拿到駕照，安全也是很重要的，所以我們有一個危險感知的教育平台，他要去完成測驗之後才能夠預約。如果要預約考照的話，每天考照有數量的限制，不然考照的品質也沒辦法維持。其實我們也會去看預約的量，而且我們也有要求，預約的量如果排到超過兩個禮拜，已經太久之後的話，我們會希望，比如說我們的監理站要加班，然後把預約的量再擴大，所以這個部分其實在機動上都會做相關的檢討。此外，有一大部分可能會在寒暑假，因為學生時間也比較多，大家都會在寒暑假這段期間去，所以時間就會比較長一點。"],["陳委員俊宇：以宜蘭的監理站來講，我們公路局是不是可以針對員額的部分，在我們所排定要考駕照的當下，相關的員額可不可以增加？"],["陳局長文瑞：好，如果是不合理的，已經要排到太久的，我們一定會把這個員額再增加，畢竟它總是有一些排程在那邊。"],["陳委員俊宇：您同意增加？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，機車駕訓的部分能否進入校園來做訓練還有考照？"],["陳局長文瑞：原則上因為訓練要有場地，而且現在有些訓練的部分，我們是有要求駕訓班，其實要慢慢的走出去，要在道路上面有實質的訓練，不能只是在場地內，畢竟有很多道路上面的應變，所以學校的部分，我們有跟學校合作，就是學校把要考照的學生需求報過來，我們找駕訓班一起來做處理，像學科的部分，比如說上課可以利用學校的場地，這是可以的，可是術科的部分，有些是要有場地的，或者是要到戶外去。"],["陳委員俊宇：希望我們公路局跟一些高中職以上學校來做一個合作。"],["陳局長文瑞：一定的，我們都會跟他們合作。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為現在學子要考照之前，可能前期要先去做訓練，在宜蘭的話，目前在數據上是有兩個訓練場地，除了我們監理站以外，有兩個訓練場地，可是實質上只有一個是在高速公路的橋下，只有一個在溪北，而且訓練的情況也導致民眾、年輕的學子要去訓練的時候，沒有辦法很方便，所以我也希望可以把訓練場地跟學校來做配合，是不是可以在宜蘭的高中職當中，找尋適當的位置去做訓練場地，也可以讓他們在那邊訓練之後，一併在那邊考照，這個部分可以嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：我跟委員報告，比如說在橋下、河邊畫的那些考照標線自己在練習的話，就只是練技術，其實對於我們的年輕學子，依據我們現在的道安統計，年輕學子拿到駕照後的事故率真的非常高，其實我們要跟學校合作，重點是要灌輸他們的不是只有技術……"],["陳委員俊宇：還有交通安全。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，不是只有技術然後拿到駕照，應該還要有交通安全、防禦駕駛觀念等實務的部分，所以我們是多鼓勵大家應該要花點時間去上一些學科或是安全的防禦駕駛，在駕訓班多一些養成的訓練，這樣拿到駕照後會更安全，因為事故率跟違規率，有無上過駕訓班真的差很大。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分還是請我們公路局更加用心，能夠增加這部分的輔導。"],["陳局長文瑞：一定會。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外就是偏鄉，關於目前數位行動監理車推動的情況，之前在宜蘭南澳推動的情況還算不錯，我也希望延續、繼續辦理。另外還有一個，請公路局會後給我一份資料，宜蘭縣的四縱六橫，其中有一橫是二結聯絡道，該聯絡道現在碰到的一個瓶頸是，剛好那個點碰到的是宜蘭監理站，所以沒辦法往西延伸，這個部分是不是請局長還是交通部，對於這個部分目前所碰到的瓶頸跟後續要推動的期程是如何，會後可否給我一份詳細的資料？以上，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，我們會提供書面給委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，陳俊宇委員發言完畢。那個監理站是在原本中興紙廠的對面。現在請顏寬恒委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席那我今天要詢問的是我們監理站還有橋梁的問題那我先請我們陳次長陳次長以及公路局陳局長好 次長 局長"},{"start":23.715,"end":52.314,"text":"我想請教一下以現行的我們監理站這個報考機車考照的部分一味難求的部分我想請教就是在其他縣市我不曉得在宜蘭縣的話常常是這個名額限制的原因導致我們這些年輕人要報考的時候一味難求那這個部分我想請教一下因為聽起來好像每次所開放的名額大概是在40到50"},{"start":54.856,"end":75.072,"text":"那可是好像有一部分是跟這個駕訓班來做配合所以在名額開放的當下可能只剩下少數的名額常常導致這種秒殺的情況那對於這個部分我們這個監體站部分有沒有什麼因應的措施或是能夠增加員額讓我們年輕學子要考照的時候不會這麼困難"},{"start":77.206,"end":98.625,"text":"跟各位報告因為現在考照就是說他我們現在還是要預約因為他就是畢竟就是說能夠知道說每天大概有多少的這一個我們的年輕朋友要去考照那家訓班因為也有也有考照的所以兩邊都有相關的一個這一個量那而且現在就是說考照的話基本上我其實我們會設定一些門檻"},{"start":99.566,"end":122.666,"text":"包括就是說你要到網路上面因為我們希望就是說不是只拿到駕照他要安全要很重要所以他要確認就是說我們有一個那個危險感知的一個教育的平台他要去完成之後才能夠去預約那基本上預約的話就是說大概因為每天的考照他有一個數量的一個限制他因為不然的話就是說他的一個考照的一個品質也沒辦法去維持"},{"start":123.286,"end":127.749,"text":"我們會去看預約的量如果說要排到我們有去要求預約的量如果說排到超過兩個禮拜這個已經太久之後的話我們會希望比如說我們的監理站要加班然後把預約的量再擴大所以這個部分其實在機動都會做相關的檢討"},{"start":146.562,"end":165.351,"text":"大部分有一些部分有可能是在這個寒暑假寒暑假因為學生比較時間也比較多所以會大家會都是都是去這個寒暑假的這個時間就比較時間就會就宜蘭的監理站來講我請我們這個公路局這邊是不是可以針對圓額部分在我們"},{"start":165.851,"end":169.572,"text":"另外就是這個機車駕訓的部分能否進入校園來做這個訓練還有這個考照的部分"},{"start":195.166,"end":210.136,"text":"他原則上因為訓練要有場地那現在就是說有些訓練的部分其實我們還就是要求駕訓班其實要慢慢的要走出去道路上面實質不能說只有在場地內大家很多就是說這個道路上面的應變"},{"start":211.016,"end":238.801,"text":"所以學校齁其實我們是跟學校合作就是說學校把這個有這個要考照的那個學生的需求那報來那我們找家訓班一起來做處理那有一些部分的話比如說學科啦學科的這一個比如說這個上課可以利用學校的可以那可是因為數科的部分有些是要有場地或者是要到路外去希望說我們公路局跟一些這種高中子以上的學校來做一個合作"},{"start":239.361,"end":258.242,"text":"因為現在學子他要考照之前可能在這個前期要先去做訓練那在宜蘭的話目前這個在數據上是有兩個訓練場地除了我們監理站以外有兩個訓練場地可是實質上只有一個是在高速公路的橋下只有一個在西北"},{"start":258.883,"end":282.265,"text":"那訓練的情況也導致這個民眾這個年輕的這個學子他要去訓練的時候沒有辦法很方便所以我也希望說我們可以把訓練場地跟學校來配合是不是可以在宜蘭的一個這個高中子去找尋適當的位置去做訓練場地那也可以讓他們在那邊訓練之後可以一併在那邊考照這個部分"},{"start":285.059,"end":305.468,"text":"還是我 我跟委員報告因為就是說自己在那個比如說這個橋下啦河邊畫的那個那個就是我們考照的那個就是說那些標線的話其實只是練技術了那練技術其實對於就是說對於這個我們年輕學子其實我們現在的道安的統計年輕學子其實拿到駕照後的事故率真的非常高"},{"start":305.968,"end":334.907,"text":"其實我們要跟學校合作的是要灌輸他們就是說不是只有技術交通安全的不是只有技術這個拿到駕照應該要對交通安全的防禦駕駛觀念實務的這個所以其實我們是多鼓勵大家其實應該要花點時間去這個比如說上一些學科啦或是在這個安全的一個防禦駕駛在駕訓班多一些養成的一個那拿到駕照後會更安全因為事故例跟違規例上過駕訓班真的差很大"},{"start":335.968,"end":363.2,"text":"好那這部分還是請我們公路局這邊這個更加用心能夠增加這個補導那另外就是這個偏鄉偏鄉我們現在目前這個數位行動監理車的部分推動的情況之前在宜蘭南澳推動的情況還算不錯我也希望延續繼續辦理那另外還有一個就請我們公路局是不是可以會後給我一份資料"},{"start":364.591,"end":391.151,"text":"宜蘭縣的這個四縱六橫其中有一橫是這個二節聯絡道聯絡道他現在目前碰到的一個瓶頸是剛好那個點剛好碰到是宜蘭監理站所以沒辦法往西延伸所以這個部分我是不是請這個局長還是我們交通部這邊對於這個部分目前所碰到的瓶頸跟後續要推動的期程是怎樣可不可以後續那個會後給我一份詳細的資料好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e176c1ab8ff501c23ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fc4f0842fa219decd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:28:57 - 11:37:23","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":506,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:37:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:28:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時29分）謝謝主席。有請次長和公路局長。"],["主席：請次長和陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：次長、局長好。之前幾位委員都有提到0403地震的問題，本席的選區是屏東縣，屏東縣總共有33個鄉鎮市，橋梁數量高達1,187座，尤其很多都是對外聯繫的橋梁，超過40年以上的老舊橋梁大概有50座。先請教交通部，目前針對橋梁維修、檢測經費及運作模式是怎麼處理？"],["陳局長文瑞：現在就是要求全國各縣市政府所管理的橋梁，第一個，一定要做全面檢測，現在檢測率已經接近百分之百。檢測之後，如果有狀況就要維修，例如之前維修率只有百分之七十幾，我們覺得有所不足，因為有些縣市沒有維修到百分之百，所以我們有做相關要求和督導。目前包括經費，如果需要協助的話，公路局和內政部有一個生活圈的道路計畫經費可以協助地方政府，他們可以提出申請，我們會協助。"],["徐委員富癸：次長、局長，現在是這樣子，因為交通部有要求地方政府每2年要進行一次橋梁檢測，這個檢測不是只看安全性，它有很多項目，包含耐震、承載力，還有所謂的安全性考量，這些項目都非常專業，需要的經費也非常多。雖然交通部要求每2年進行一次，但是以屏東縣政府來說，我們的工務處為了安全考量，基本上每年都會做一次檢測。交通部有建立檢測的KPI，但是在經費上，好像並沒有針對縣市政府進行補助，這部分是不是可以說明一下？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才局長也說明了，原則上檢測的費用大概都由地方政府的養護經費或分配到的汽燃費支應，真正比較需要的，其實是維修經費啦！那部分我們有編列相關預算處理。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，本席還是要再提醒一下，畢竟非六都和六都的財源截然不同，尤其屏東縣政府被列為第五級，財政非常困窘。依本席調查的資料，屏東縣政府一年光是橋梁檢測的費用就高達3,700萬元以上，檢測完之後，維修和改建的預算，預估一年至少需要2億元左右，依屏東縣政府的財力根本沒辦法負擔這筆費用。就我們目前聽到的訊息，申請的次數和頻率並沒有固定的時程安排，這部分是不是有辦法改善？"],["陳次長彥伯：我可以向委員說明一下，剛才我也有特別提到，原則上檢測的費用大概就是用分配到的汽燃費，屏東縣政府每年的汽燃費要如何支應，他們會報到交通部。我們再來檢視看看，如果他們在編列上真的不足或是有困難，或是相關的維修經費……"],["徐委員富癸：縣政府會提報計畫，但你們就是不給經費啊！這樣有什麼用？"],["陳次長彥伯：不會啦！要提報計畫給我們看一下啦！會給他們一些指導。"],["徐委員富癸：你們要求人家提報計畫，結果卻不給經費，我們要怎麼檢測？"],["陳次長彥伯：不會啦！他們提報計畫，我們就知道他們把錢花到哪裡去了。我們也會協助他們，如果真的有所不足，或是基於安全的理由，我們再想想用什麼方式協助。"],["徐委員富癸：本席建議，橋梁檢測的頻率是每2年一次，相關的維修經費是不是也可以比照2年處理一次？不要拖那麼久啦！是不是可以這樣？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們研究看看。好嗎？"],["徐委員富癸：不要再研究了，你們一定要承諾，因為每次提報都沒有消息。"],["陳次長彥伯：因為這牽涉到相關費用的支應，所以我們研究一下，看要用什麼方式處理。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，高屏大橋斷過，雙園大橋斷過，楓港大橋也斷過，橋斷了之後由誰處理？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，了解。所以才說後續要檢測，至於維修的費用，我們會支持。"],["徐委員富癸：聽到這樣的回答，我們都很心酸啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：不會啦！我們會儘量協助，會想辦法研究如何支應。"],["徐委員富癸：不要只是儘量啦！次長，本席會在這邊質詢，就是要求交通部要給本席一個答案啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們看怎麼樣協助屏東縣政府。"],["陳局長文瑞：有一些是地方政府檢測之後，比較急迫需要改善的，就是u ≥ 3的部分，其實我們已經有受理，目前提報25件，基本上只要有需要，我們會陸續核定，現在已經核定9件。我們再查一下屏東縣政府是不是有提報，好不好？如果有這個需求的話，我們會儘量給予協助。"],["徐委員富癸：是啦！本席要再特別提醒，像以前楓港大橋一斷橋，恆春半島就變成孤島沒有辦法出入，因為那是唯一的通路。"],["陳次長彥伯：是的。"],["徐委員富癸：這些交通部應該都很清楚，我們還是要正視橋梁安全的問題。","另外針對最近民間朋友比較關心的，就是外送平台合併的問題，根據本席了解，今年第一季的事故大概有三百多件，交通部針對外送員的安全考量有沒有做什麼樣的因應對策？"],["陳次長彥伯：關於外送員的安全，其實我們在交通安全方面也非常重視，這也是我們列管要改進的，所以我們也訂定相關的安全指引，Uber Eats或Foodpanda要負起相關的安全管理事項責任，所以我們可以看到，相關的事故件數有減少的趨勢，當然，還不是很滿意啦！所以我們會繼續要求公路監理機關督導相關的外送業者，包括如何降低交通安全事故。"],["徐委員富癸：據我們目前的了解，全國一年有7,000件的外送事故，當然，最大的原因是報酬制度造成的趕件行為，但是從整個用路環境來看，每次看到外送員在車陣中穿梭、奔波，真的是膽戰心驚啦！所以交通部要整頓一下這個部分，這一點我們要共同努力。","最後一個問題，前幾天也有發生鄉親搭乘普悠瑪自強號時，車上出現小強的事件，針對這個部分，臺鐵怎麼改善環境？"],["陳次長彥伯：請總經理說明。"],["馮總經理輝昇：這件事情發現後，我們已經立即要求廠商和同仁加強放藥和清潔的工作。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，還是要再提醒一下臺鐵，上次我們質詢時有特別提到漲價的議題，如果價格漲的和高鐵差不多，本席認為臺鐵的營運狀況可能會很吃力，因為大家都會改搭高鐵，沒有人會搭臺鐵。所以這部分還是要請臺鐵研議一下，針對通勤族和大眾運輸的部分，怎麼做一個衡平的考量。"],["馮總經理輝昇：謝謝委員。我們會先以安全和服務提升為主，下半年，依照立法院先前公示的一些規定，我們再來依規定、依程序辦理相關方案的檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。希望臺鐵也要加油啦！謝謝。"],["馮總經理輝昇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，徐富癸委員發言完畢。現在請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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維修跟改建的預算至少一年要 預估大概要兩億元左右那我想依屏東縣政府的財力根本沒辦法負擔這筆費用那我們目前聽到的訊息是說這個我們申請的一個次數跟所謂的一個頻率並沒有一個固定的一個時程來安排那這部分是不是有辦法來做一個改善"},{"start":214.306,"end":238.684,"text":"我可以跟委員說明一下原則上剛才我特別提到檢測的費用大概是在分配的棄燃費裡頭那屏東縣政府大概每年棄燃費要如何支應會報到部裡頭來那我們再來檢視看看如果他在編列上真的是不足或者是有困難或是相關維修的經費阿國中就會報 你們就不要互換阿 哪有理由沒有啦 不然我們看一下啦我們看一下會給你一些指導阿你們都幾人報 報 報 你們如果不要請互換都要怎麼開"},{"start":241.986,"end":243.366,"text":"我們來研究看看好不好"},{"start":267.113,"end":268.634,"text":"所以說才說後續的維修的要檢測那維修的費用我們來支持"},{"start":287.423,"end":298.042,"text":"啊聽了這些都很心酸的啦沒有啦我會盡量來的啦想辦法來研究看看不要盡量啦市長本來在這邊質詢就是要求交通部要給我一個答案啦"},{"start":300.283,"end":323.198,"text":"我們看怎麼樣來協助屏東縣政府像現在就是說其實有一些地方這個政府就是說他在檢測出來比較急迫要改善就是U大1等於3的那個部分其實我們已經有受理提報了這一個就是25件那基本上"},{"start":324.078,"end":351.164,"text":"這一個我們只要就是說需要的話我們一路續會核定現在已經核定9件了所以我們再查一下屏東縣政府是不是有提報好不好如果說有這個需求的話我們會盡量給予協助的是啊本席特別強烈在提醒說因為像我們的好比如說像以前鳳梨大橋一段橋那個行程部分都變孤島效應了真的沒辦法出去了唯一的通路嘛這個我想交通部門都很清楚了我們還是要重視這個橋梁安全的問題"},{"start":352.384,"end":371.542,"text":"那另外針對最近一個我們這個年輕朋友比較關心的就是所謂的一個外送平台的一個合併的問題那因為根據本期來瞭解今年第一季事故的比例大概有300多件那我們交通部針對這個外送員的部分的安全考量有沒有做什麼樣的因應對策"},{"start":373.831,"end":375.612,"text":"公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善"},{"start":403.566,"end":425.216,"text":"以我們公路監理機關來督導這個相關的這個外送業者如何來降低他的交通安全我想我們目前了解大概全國一年我們有7000件的一個外送事故那當然最大的原因應該是屬於一個所謂的一個報酬制度造成一個趕監的一個行為但是我們整個一個用路的環境"},{"start":426.417,"end":451.342,"text":"每次看到我們的外送員在我們車站中穿梭在走是膽戰心驚所以我們交通部要如何整頓一下這個環境還是我們要共同來努力那最後一個問題就是我想前幾天也有發生過我們鄉親搭乘普悠瑪之間出現小強的事件針對這部分台鐵怎麼樣來改善這個環境"},{"start":454.543,"end":469.315,"text":"報告委員我們這一件發現後已經立即要求我們的廠商還有我們同仁加強我們這個放藥還有這個清潔的工作另外一個就是還是再提醒一下台庭上次我們在質詢的時候有特別提到這個漲價的議題"},{"start":471.016,"end":485.689,"text":"如果說我們的介紹跟高鐵差不多,我相信台鐵就要吃辣辣了。大家都要坐高鐵,沒有人要坐台鐵。這部分還是要請台鐵研議一下,針對我們通勤組還有我們大眾運輸的部分,怎麼樣做一個橫頻的考量。"},{"start":487.839,"end":503.28,"text":"我們會先以安全還有服務提升為主那下半年依照立法院先前公示的一些這個規定我們再來依規定依程序來辦理相關方案的檢討好謝謝希望台鐵也要加油了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3094ba5c0ed1c4f59c3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f71244ce773f284e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"11:19:00 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局長好 我們這個會期其實在0403地震之前我們在交通委員會我們就召開了相關的不管是長隧道相關的這些防震防災的相關的實地的考察或者是相關國家級警報相關的這些專題的報告"},{"start":34.42,"end":60.527,"text":"然後我們也看到這個0403的大地震之後其實它的餘震也是不斷那我們對於交通系統的安全我們必須要時時刻刻在還沒有發生之前我們就要做好預防發生之後也要確實來檢討是否有相關的整體交通系統的緩緩的這樣的一個措施或者是整體的這個程序有沒有問題來必須做一個檢討那我們"},{"start":63.184,"end":83.86,"text":"4月份發生的這樣的一個余震就有1396次那顯著的有感地震達到348個小區域的地震有1048個那地震的次數我們以對比去年的4月來講是增加了26倍增加了26倍"},{"start":86.212,"end":94.11,"text":"國家級情報在2023年總共發布了13次到今年到現在為止已經發布了60次"},{"start":95.558,"end":119.963,"text":"那我們對於相關的這些落實造成的重大災害我們來看大地震0403蘇花公路的大清水地段也發生了大規模的崩塌也造成一死一傷的這樣的不幸的事故那我們看到公路兩側發生這樣一個落實自殺的這樣的一個案件"},{"start":121.443,"end":131.107,"text":"2011年有11次2023年有4次今年到目前有幾次請說明一下有相關統計嗎"},{"start":134.198,"end":161.839,"text":"我跟委員報告就是因為大概就是在那個0403這一個統計是比較就是說完整的那前面的幾次會前面比較少那因為0403主要大概就是都是在台九線跟台八線的東段跟西段那這一個主段的部分其實大概我們都是在這一個像台九線的這個蘇化公路其實是在四天我們就搶通小客車通行"},{"start":162.339,"end":174.768,"text":"那就是說其他的這個落實的這個清理其實也是在這個4月6號都全部都已經清理完都已經清理完大概幾個地方然後都已經清理完畢了然後大概有幾個地方有這樣一個台九縣的話就是我們現在就是說這一個有這一個六處"},{"start":182.534,"end":183.034,"text":"局長、次長我們之前我一直要求"},{"start":197.981,"end":213.858,"text":"交通部針對公路總局相關的單位我們要設置落實的告警系統那這個落實告警系統目前總共完成了16個地方那落實的這樣的一個警示也總共有達到39次"},{"start":215.359,"end":234.906,"text":"那當然這些相關的狀況我們必須要更精進的掌握當然我們對於邊坡的分級管理有運用遙測的技術也定量的分級來管理也導入科技的巡檢那最重要我們要推動落實的這種告警的系統"},{"start":235.706,"end":251.157,"text":"我們現在看看我們的這個邊坡的統計當然是分成A B C DA B都是屬於比較高風險的這樣的一個級別A級我們今年3月21有做統計A級有273處B級有43處我請教一下"},{"start":257.816,"end":283.47,"text":"零四零三大地震之後這些邊級的這樣的一個狀況有變動嗎?或是有增加?是根本報告會變動不過就是說因為就是說整個這個包括A級跟B級的定義的話就是說這一個包括這個兩年內有落實然後能不能把它這個落實的源頭做相關的處理那防護的措施是什麼?所以就是說還有就是說它的邊坡是不是還是不穩定"},{"start":284.15,"end":284.19,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":301.886,"end":304.107,"text":"分級沒有問題現在只是說有一些的邊坡要把它滾動滾動滾進來可能會變成A級跟B級這樣子"},{"start":318.952,"end":323.296,"text":"對 我的意思就是這樣當然ABCD這四級它有一個明確的定義 這個不會變動我講的是說 AB級的例如說原本的A級有273處 B級有43處那經過大地震之後有沒有增加或是怎樣的一個狀況"},{"start":337.079,"end":341.122,"text":"公路局應該盡速對邊坡來做相關的巡檢那盤查這些危險邊坡的數量要明確並要加強的管理那也要擴大邊路相關的預算我們要增加告警系統的"},{"start":364.8,"end":383.401,"text":"這樣的一個監測範圍因為在過去我們有明確的偵測到39次的這樣一個落實的事件也一定發揮它保障人民旅客的這種生命財產的安全那我們這些例如我們症候防災辦理橋梁的特別巡檢的耐震補強這個部分"},{"start":384.682,"end":402.671,"text":"那當然我們在2009年有明訂一個公路橋梁耐震評估及補強的準則那當時國內有607座橋梁也進行耐震的補強這個都已經完成了嘛告一段落了那我們2021年的3月又推出一個新的公路橋梁耐震評估及補強設施的設計的規範那有1970"},{"start":408.975,"end":422.226,"text":"1號97座的這種單跨橋梁的支撐防弱需要進行評估那有1487座多跨橋梁應進行耐震初步評估那目前的這些檢測橋梁的頻率來說明一下"},{"start":424.71,"end":449.263,"text":"公務員報告就是新的這個110年之後新的這個耐震評估跟補強設計規範之後確實就是說像我們公路局的話自己審到的相關的橋梁去做相關的一個做處理那最後其實是510除了這個上面所提到的我們還有519座還做特別的檢測那這些部分的話其實有需要做補強的部分我們都會編預算來做補強"},{"start":450.584,"end":471.818,"text":"當然我們的檢測有分成三種有定期的檢測然後有特別的檢測還有詳細的檢測定期的檢測我們大概是兩年做一個檢測是不是規範兩年不過像我們像跨河橋梁的部分的話其實我們大概每年都會做特別的檢測就是發生重大的這些災害"},{"start":472.699,"end":498.164,"text":"那我們0403之後我們有針對橋梁去做特別的這樣的一個檢測有0403之後的話他的鎮區範圍裡面我們需要檢測的特別檢測的有205座那依照規範14天內特別檢測都要完成所以原則上現在的規範其實比如說該修的我們修了沒有太大問題現在只剩下就是下清水橋就是這一個正在做的5月底要通行大廠"},{"start":498.504,"end":519.162,"text":"這些橋梁的安全必須要負起最大的責任每座橋梁都關係到人民的這樣的一個生命的安全的保障那最後我有幾個建議就是說我們的橋梁管理系統我看好像只是為了各系統維護及管理上的一種上傳的資料庫而已那我認為應該建立"},{"start":520.743,"end":525.81,"text":"更齊全的這樣的一個橋梁的交通的系統就是說橋梁的管理檢測及養護項目的統一標準這樣的一個"},{"start":531.176,"end":560.068,"text":"橋梁的系統來說明一下我跟委員報告一下原則上橋梁管理系統在這個像我們交通部的話公路局高速公路局或者是鐵道局相關的都有他的管理系統現在其實這是交通部那你看像內政部他也有相關的系統剛才特別提到是屬於運營所是屬於相關檢測完資料的一個會診所以這是大概有這樣兩個層級的不同對啊那你層級的不同你必須"},{"start":561.158,"end":561.418,"text":"好,是是是"}]}},{"id":"152636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc305e5490ee9abee5c1be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0f15ecab491915b16c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:31:07 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Huang等等，居然都是臺灣人，所以臺灣的驕傲奠定在這樣一個大家共同關心的基礎，帶給臺灣未來的影響是十年、二十年的，部長也是身負重任，希望有機會出去的話，也可以帶一些豐碩的果實回來。","今天進口稅則又來了，怎麼每一年好像都是好大的一本，這一次是跟Marshall Islands，可是事實上我們經濟的往來量並不多，這個是我們的邦交國，是不是我們跟每一個邦交國都必須要做那麼厚厚一本的進口稅則的修正？我看每年、每次都是厚厚一本，好大一本。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我想各部會都在努力跟其他國家之間有一些經濟合作的協議，促進貿易發展，如果有經濟合作協議對關稅減讓的部分，我們要履行減讓的措施，所以必須要去修海關進口稅則，比如說這個稅則裡面可能項目有三千多項，所以看起來就厚厚的一本。"],["羅委員明才：對我們邦交國，我們大概都會進行這樣一些稅則的修正嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為經濟部在跟他們談的時候都會一併討論到。"],["羅委員明才：OK，今天大概也沒有什麼問題啦？在過去的討論上都是會儘量來配合。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員支持。"],["羅委員明才：希望增加臺灣的國際能見度，在經濟貿易交流方面給予更大的支持跟鼓勵，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，現在進行海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案之處理，預計宣讀100分鐘，請議事人員宣讀。","宣讀完畢後，下午1點15分進行協商，同時我們開放用餐，也請各位官員就地用餐，因為下午還要進行協商。與海關進口稅則法案無關的官員可以先行離席，謝謝。","行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」簡表（參閱附錄）："]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.227843750000002,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.015968750000003,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.66534375,"end":19.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.16284375,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.925968750000003,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.32596875,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.57409375,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.922843750000006,"end":47.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.33159375,"end":63.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.37971875,"end":73.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.31909375000001,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.87159375,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.86909375,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.01971875000001,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.62284375,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.71659375,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.07846875,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.01909375,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.70659375,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.22534375,"end":136.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.80284375000002,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.62909375,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.62471875,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.05909375000002,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.10096875000002,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.15721875,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.91159375,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.96221875,"end":172.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.13471875000002,"end":174.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.22721875000002,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.78784375,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.28034375000001,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.88721875000002,"end":191.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.55346875,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.85659375,"end":199.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.51034375,"end":199.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.35409375,"end":200.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.31596875000002,"end":202.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.00346875000002,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.99471875,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.41221875000002,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.22596875000002,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.82909375000003,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.06034375000002,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.80659375000002,"end":225.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.54909375000003,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.01659375000003,"end":229.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.85159375,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPE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Huang等等居然都是臺灣人所以臺灣的驕傲奠定在這樣一個大家共同關心的基礎帶給臺灣未來的影響是10年20年的所以希望部長也是身負中任有機會"},{"start":178.857,"end":207.231,"text":"出去的話也可以帶一些封鎖的果實回來今天進口稅則又來了什麼每一年好像都是好大的一本那這個究竟我們這一次是跟哪一個國家可是我們事實上經濟的這個往來那個量並不多啊"},{"start":210.27,"end":231.337,"text":"那這個是我們邦交國嗎?是不是我們跟每一個邦交國都必須要做那麼厚厚一本的這個進口稅則的修正每一年我看每一年都要辦每一次都是要厚厚一本好大一本是是是我講"},{"start":233.278,"end":250.234,"text":"各部會都在努力跟其他國家之間然後有一些經濟合作的協議然後促進貿易的一個發展那如果有經濟合作期對關稅減讓的部分那我們要履行我們的減讓的一個措施所以必須要去修海關進口稅則那這個稅則裡面可能項目比如說有3000多項"},{"start":253.797,"end":261.908,"text":"那所以看起來就厚厚的一本那就很厚厚的所以對我們邦交國我們大概都會進行這樣的一個稅則的修正嗎對那因為那個經濟部在跟他們談的時候都會一定會討論到是"},{"start":267.12,"end":267.621,"text":"今天發言的委員"}]}},{"id":"152635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30756ed803add21f4c974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0fb5955a0c0d9861e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"11:32:15 - 11:35:40","影片長度":"00:03:25","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":205,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:35:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:32:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（11時32分）謝謝主席，第二次補充說明。有關於離島條例第十三條的補充說明，第一，應該增加花東及原住民地區設洗腎中心，光是臺東地區就有750位洗腎患者，目前全臺洗腎人口更直逼將近9萬人。若病患因有肺積水的狀況，就算幸運遇到合適的腎臟也無法換腎，請問臺東有多少洗腎中心，是否能滿足臺東的洗腎需求？","第二個，因為偏鄉血液透析護理人員難尋找，15張床位只能提供8張床位的服務，期盼護理人員加入，請問目前臺東醫療院所的醫護比是多少？","第三，語言溝通不良的原因就是延誤了病情的醫療，部落常被反映，因為不太會說國語，他們生活的語言、溝通方式都用我們原住民的母語的話，因此造成許多到醫院會診的時候就會延誤到明確診斷他的病情，所以他語言的表達就會有障礙。當然，有很多沒有辦法第一時間能夠正確診斷他的病情，造成許多老人家或長輩病情治療的延誤。","第四，針對花東地區高齡醫療照顧及可行性的研究，臺東縣中高齡民眾醫療可行性、醫療品質與服務、醫療滿意度及醫療忠誠度之研究提及，因為地理環境的限制，使交通和醫療的資源分配不均。臺灣受限於地理環境及交通，造成醫療資源分配不均，即使偏鄉有保險也無醫療的保障，尤其是慢性病和癌症的治療需求。對於這個部分，醫療不足的話，請問要如何處理？","第五，花東地區的長照資源與基層的醫療資源，與都會區供需的平衡，但偏鄉地區的資源可接近性較低，部分村裡有雙重剝奪的現象。長照在基礎醫療資源可接近性比較差，所以社會經濟地位也不佳，缺乏更多資源和外界援助的地方，請問如何處理？所以這個部分要審慎地評估跟研究，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：非常感謝黃仁委員。","登記發言的委員除了不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委員有邱議瑩委員以及林岱樺委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢未及答復部分請相關單位於一週以內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.51096875,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.957843750000002,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.28096875,"end":30.844718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.18221875,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.26159375,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.05034375,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.73346875,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.587843750000005,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.63721875,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.18846875,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.87159375,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.95159375,"end":84.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.35534375,"end":84.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.40159375,"end":86.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.05534375,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.36846875,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.94034375000001,"end":133.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.46159375000002,"end":145.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.59471875,"end":152.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.07034375,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.68471875,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.57721875000001,"end":205.77096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.55,"end":6.57,"text":"案。」"},{"start":20.899,"end":39.57,"text":"應該增加花東及原住民地區及洗腎中心光是台東地區就有750位洗腎患者目前全台洗腎人口更直逼到將近9萬人若病患因有肺積水的狀況"},{"start":40.771,"end":61.297,"text":"案,就是幸運遇到合適的這個腎臟也無法換腎。請問臺東有多少洗腎中心是否能滿足臺東的洗腎的需求?那第二個為偏鄉的血液透析婦理人員的難尋找。十五張床為"},{"start":62.777,"end":84.492,"text":"只能提供八張床位的服務,即盼婦理人員加入,請問目前臺東醫療院所的醫護比是多少?第三、語言溝通不良的原因就是延誤了病情的醫療,部落長輩反映因為"},{"start":85.633,"end":90.097,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":113.497,"end":141.281,"text":"正確的診斷他的病情造成了許多老人家的或長輩病情治療的延誤。第四、針對花東第七高齡醫療照顧及可行性的研究。台東縣中高齡民眾醫療可行性醫療品質與服務醫療滿意度及醫療忠誠度之研究提及因為地理環境的限制"},{"start":141.561,"end":161.43,"text":"案,使交通和醫療的資源分配不均。台灣受限於地理環境及交通,造成了醫療資源分配不均,即使偏鄉有保險也無醫療的保障,尤其是慢性病和癌症的治療需求。"},{"start":163.755,"end":180.205,"text":"所以這個部分醫療部署的話請問要如何處理?第五,花東地區的長照資源與基層的醫療資源以都會區的供需的平衡但偏鄉地區的資源可接近性的較低"},{"start":180.845,"end":205.591,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"}]}},{"id":"152634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30df72881e1a99f7eb974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0fab895d7d41794bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:23:29 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11:32:01","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":512,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:32:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:23:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時23分）好，謝謝主席。有請龔主委，也就是未來的秘書長。"],["主席：我們請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，主委，520過後就要稱呼你秘書長，現在是國發會主委，未來擔任秘書長，那個高度又更高，看得又會更廣，所以我們很期待主委未來在行政院有更好的發揮。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：恭喜你。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：我還是想藉這個機會再跟主委聊一下臺灣的海洋政策。基本上臺灣四面環海，我們的臨海面積是我們國土面積的4.7倍，全球有十二大的航商，就有三個在臺灣，目前我們知道臺灣基本上是遊艇王國，我們臺灣打造遊艇的能量是最強的，我們有這麼強的打造遊艇的能量，我想要跟主委報告一下，我們自己國內在使用遊艇，也就是我們在使用臨海地區，使用藍色公路，實際上還沒有那麼蓬勃發展，主委，我這樣講，你認同嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：同意。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說，臺灣這麼會打造遊艇，但是我們使用的實在是比較少，事實上這個就是因為有很多政策的問題環環相扣，我現在要跟你講的就是，我們去離島，我們會去免稅商店買免稅品，我們如果去買免稅品，現在依據離島免稅商品設置管理辦法第五條，如果要去買免稅商品，有幾個必要的證件，第一個是護照；第二個，如果是外僑要有居留證；第三個是要有旅行證件或身分證明文件。這個旅行證件是什麼？主委，就你所知，你知道這個旅行證件是什麼嗎？我跟你說，就是從臺灣到離島，搭交通船，不管是搭藍鵲號或雲豹號，搭交通船的船票或者是飛機票，都是旅行證件，所以要有這個旅行證件才能夠去購買離島的免稅商品，現在問題來了，如果我搭遊艇、我走藍色公路、我坐私人的遊艇到離島去，我沒有旅行證件，我沒有辦法去買免稅商品，在這個政策的設計之下，是不是就變成對於搭乘遊艇去離島旅遊的遊客來說，就不夠便民？是不是有這樣的狀況？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，這件事情我們有跨部會協商過，技術性的問題，我們大概已經可以解決了，就是說，因為出海都要填財政部的出海報備表，報備表有填了，有確定出海了，我們可以把這個當作證件。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒有錯。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以技術上是沒有問題的。"],["蔡委員易餘：就在這一頁，那個時候是主委你幫忙的，我知道，你去幫我協調。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們現在用出海報備表就可以作為證件，去買免稅商品，可是問題來了，主委，我們當時沒有再往下去思考，買了免稅商品以後，要去哪裡提貨？現在去離島買免稅商品的人，在要離開離島時，要去坐交通船，或者是去機場坐飛機前，到那一段管制區，才能去拿已購買的免稅品，主委你知道吧？好，問題來了，我們剛剛設計的，這些自己搭遊艇、自己搭他的私人船舶去的，他沒辦法啊！他少了……他沒辦法進入管制區。哇！他去那邊買，他沒地方可拿，所以很多人跟我說，你們推動了這個政策，結果沒有辦法被實踐，因為我不知道要去哪裡拿，那些免稅品也沒辦法讓你直接拿走，都是你買了以後，你要到管制區，他才會幫你拿貨，他拿到那裡，你再去那裡直接拿走。這個我知道他們的用意是什麼，當時這樣設計是擔心這一些免稅品，如果他們沒有在管制區交貨的話，它可能會流入離島，然後會影響在地的商家，他們有這樣的一個考慮，所以他們用管制區。但是對我們剛剛講到遊艇的部分，這就沒辦法解決了，是不是？主委，這兩件事情是不是無解？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：無解嘛！有辦法嗎？動腦想想有辦法嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：委員的建議我知道，他不要在離島裡面提貨，就不會留在離島裡面了。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啦！就是這樣，所以我的意思就是這樣啦！所以我們只要本島有設置一個提貨處，是不是這些搭遊艇去旅遊的人，他們的問題就解決了？他搭遊艇去，一樣也可以去買免稅，他在本島的提貨處提貨，消費一樣在離島，消費沒有在本島，本島只是提貨，所以他同時就帶有兩個好處，第一個，如果我是搭交通船的、我搭飛機的，我要出去，一樣可以到管制區去拿這些免稅品。這樣一來，我坐船、我坐飛機就不用大包小包，對我的旅遊是非常輕鬆、非常方便的。第二個，這樣才有辦法解決我剛剛講的，他使用藍色公路，他是使用自己的船舶到離島去購物、去買免稅品，然後買了免稅品後沒有辦法進入管制區，所以他就等於是回來國內再去國內特定的提貨處拿貨。主委，我這樣說……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：對嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我今天特別再提出了離島建設條例第十條之一，我希望可以在跟離島對接的這些臺灣商港港口設提貨區。事實上空港沒有問題，飛機的部分因為他們都有提貨，都是管制區對管制區所以沒問題，現在是商港的部分，在臺灣的部分有沒有辦法增設提貨區。這個增設提貨區就是像我剛剛講的，它可以解決現階段我們離島在做免稅品管制的前提，然後在不去影響他們的架構之下，再開創一條路，讓所謂行駛藍色公路、坐遊艇的，像我們都是騎水車去澎湖的，這樣大家才有機會去那邊消費啊！我們的消費也可以帶動離島，離島的經濟也會好，所以我覺得這是一個多贏的角度去看待這樣的修法。","我也知道事實上主委一直很支持我這一條提案，我也希望可以在這個會期，順利把第十條之一推動過，然後有更多人去離島遊玩，我們本島這邊也可以因為提貨區的設置，大家未來旅遊會更加方便，這樣好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請邱議瑩委員。邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員不在現場。","我們最後請黃仁委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.320343750000003,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.92159375,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.60909375,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.262843750000002,"end":30.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.74346875,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.78471875,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.46721875,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.09159375,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.51221875,"end":55.110968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.90409375,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.53659375,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.26096875,"end":68.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.40409375,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.85846875,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.61346875000001,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.41034375000001,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.19909375,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.41409375,"end":89.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.63721875,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.45909375000001,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.35284375,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.61846875,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.33534375,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.56596875000001,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.78909375,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.51846875000001,"end":137.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.18659375000001,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.48971875,"end":144.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":145.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.47221875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.17221875,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.58096875,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.69471875000002,"end":156.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.15409375000002,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.83221875,"end":165.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.23284375,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.58721875,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.00471875000002,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.99159375000002,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.88971875000001,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.64471875,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.35721875000002,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.26409375,"end":185.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.75721875000002,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.13659375,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.34534375,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.57284375,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.89721875,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":232.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.84409375,"end":225.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.28596875000002,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.09596875000003,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.58096875,"end":245.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.31034375000002,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.93846875000003,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.23721875,"end":252.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.39221875,"end":268.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.06471875,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.38096875,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.04659375,"end":285.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.26909375,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.27721875000003,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.48346875000004,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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。"},{"start":120.572,"end":145.186,"text":"我們如果要去免稅商品,他們現在依依據離島免稅商品的設置管理辦法第五條。大家看,我們如果要去免稅商品,我們要有幾項必要的證件。第一是護照。第二是外橋,它要有居留證。第三要有旅行證件或身份證明文件。這個旅行證件是什麼?注意,這是旅行證件。"},{"start":149.229,"end":165.397,"text":"就你知道你這個旅行證件是什麼嗎我跟你說就是我們搭交通船從台灣到離島搭交通船不管是所謂藍雀雲豹號啦搭交通航的這個船票或者是飛機票"},{"start":168.078,"end":186.997,"text":"案,所以你要有這個旅行證件欸,他才能夠去購買離島的免稅商品。我現在問題來了,現在問題就造出來就是說,那如果我搭遊艇,我走藍色公路,我坐這個私人的遊艇到離島去,我沒有旅行證件啊。"},{"start":188.198,"end":201.791,"text":"我沒有辦法去買免稅商品,那是不是在這個政策的設計之下,變得我們對於去離島旅遊,然後我們是走我們的遊艇旅遊的,走這個遊艇旅遊的,就不夠辯明了?是不是有這樣的狀況?"},{"start":207.95,"end":219.922,"text":"法院委員我想這件事情我們有跨部有協商過技術性的問題我們大概已經可以解決了就是說因為他出海都要填這個跟填這個出海報報備表"},{"start":222.43,"end":239.18,"text":"案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三、本院委員陳玉珍等19條條文修正草案、三"},{"start":246.617,"end":268.586,"text":"當時我們沒有再往下去思考,那我買了免稅商品後,我要去哪裡?現在離島去買免稅商品,他就是在我要去離開離島,就是我要去坐交通船,或者是我去機場,我要坐飛機前,那一段管制區,我才能去拿我的免稅品。"},{"start":270.114,"end":270.134,"text":"案。"},{"start":290.7,"end":311.525,"text":"案,所以我很多人說,哇,你們推動了這個政策,結果沒有辦法被實踐,因為我不知道要去哪裡賺錢,那些免稅品也沒辦法讓你賺錢,那些都是讓你買的,你去管制區,他把你扣回去,把你扣到那裡,你才可以賺錢,這個我知道他們的用意是什麼?"},{"start":313.265,"end":338.79,"text":"當時這樣設計是擔心這一些免稅品如果他們沒有在管制區交貨的話他可能會流入離島然後會影響在地的商家是不是他們有這樣的一個考慮所以他們用管制區但是勒但是勒對我們剛剛講的遊艇的他就沒辦法解決了是不是主委是不是這兩件事情無解無解嘛齁"},{"start":341.009,"end":361.485,"text":"有辦法嗎?大家想想有辦法嗎?所以委員的建議我知道就是說他不要在那個離島裡面來提貨就不會留在這個離島裡面對啦就是這樣啦所以我的意思就是這樣啦所以我們只要本島有設置一個提貨處是不是這些遊艇的人去旅遊的人他的問題就改過啦"},{"start":364.336,"end":388.812,"text":"他搭遊艇去他一樣去買免稅品那他在本島本島的提貨處去提貨消費一樣在離島消費沒有在本島本島只是提貨所以他同時間就帶有兩個好處第一類就是說如果我是搭交通船的我搭飛機的我要處理我一樣去管制區去拿這個免稅品這樣起來我坐船我坐飛機我不用大包小包"},{"start":391.814,"end":415.53,"text":"對我的旅遊是非常的輕鬆、非常的方便的。第二個他才有辦法解決我剛剛講的他使用藍色公路他是使用自己的船舶到離島然後去購物去買免稅品然後買免稅品後沒有辦法進入管制區所以他就是等於他回來國內再去國內特定的提貨處去挖火"},{"start":418.474,"end":434.834,"text":"注意我這樣說對嗎?所以我今天我特別再提出了這個離島建設條例第十條之一那我希望可以再跟離島對接的台灣的這一些三港在港口"},{"start":435.274,"end":456.936,"text":"案,可設提貨區,事實上空港沒有問題了,廢機的部分因為他們都有提貨,他們那些都白白管制區對管制區的沒問題,現在是香港的部分在台灣的部分有沒有辦法增設提貨區,這個增設提貨區就是像我剛剛講的,他可以解決現階段我們離島他在做免稅品的管制的"},{"start":457.637,"end":459.739,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":482.559,"end":507.004,"text":"我把雜貨公司讓主委你一直很支持我這一條提案那我也希望說可以在這個會期然後把順利把這個第十條之一把它推動過然後離島更多更多人去離島遊玩那我們本島這邊那也可以因為提貨的一個一個提貨區的一個設置然後大家未來的旅遊會更加的方便這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝主委好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3064ce4919e71e9064be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0f3af29b1e480214c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:19:16 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11:30:48","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-12"},"duration":692,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:30:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:19:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時19分）謝謝主席及各位先進，請財政部的莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好，我剛才稱呼你部長，其實我講得很慢，因為你已經辭掉了，你總辭了對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：今天我們有簽名總辭。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你就不是部長了，那個政次也不是啦，阮清華是不是政次？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯，是我們政務次長。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！政務官都辭掉了，從現在到520之前，應該稱呼你莊翠雲女士或者莊翠雲小姐還比較貼切，你今天是社會賢達人士來備詢，這樣子是合理的，在制度上是這樣子啊，現在開始你總辭了，請辭待命了，所以你現在來講的話，請聽好這句話喔，從現在到520正式舉手宣誓之前，你不能簽公文喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：向委員報告，我們的任期是到5月19日啊，520以後是……"],["賴委員士葆：你總辭了，不是嗎？你總辭了，請問你今天有簽字嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：今天有簽，有簽！"],["賴委員士葆：簽字了啊，生效了啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：有簽，但是應該還有不同的生效日期吧？"],["賴委員士葆：生效日期是什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：就到5月19日啊！"],["賴委員士葆：所以你還是部長就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該是啊！"],["賴委員士葆：所以稱呼你部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關稱呼，我想委員其實我們彼此都很尊重。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊，總辭是假的嗎？你今天總辭生效啊！說到519，這也是糊弄人家啊！老實講，我們選舉制度太有問題了，2月以後新的國會產生了，結果現在垃圾時間這麼長，一直到5月20日，有三個月半以上，這沒有道理啊！老實講，整個政務沒有辦法推，還好你是連任了。","繼續剛才李委員很關心的議題，我也很關心，你去亞銀之後，請問現在我們的名稱是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：Taipei, China。"],["賴委員士葆：Taipei, China！連我們去參加WHA的名稱「Chinese Taipei」都不如，Taipei, China就是正式把我們矮化為一個地方的城市而已，請問你有沒有正式抗議？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，我們在理事年會都有表達強烈的抗議，第一個，我們告訴大會我們是正式的會員國，而且我們是創始會員國……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你有沒有提案？"],["莊部長翠雲：呃，提案的部分，我們基本上是在年會裡面表達……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有提案嗎？再怎麼樣，在WHA還是有邦交國提替我們提案，請問我們在亞銀，我們是創始國，有沒有友邦幫我們提案？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然到目前為止……"],["賴委員士葆：一個都沒有啊！你要知道可以去Google一下，你出國之前，社會大眾對你期待很高喔，希望你第一個要抗議，第二個要成案，要去fight一下，輸了沒有關係，表決輸也沒有關係，但是你連這個動作都沒有做，就是在糊弄大家。你說要去爭取權益，連個必也正名乎都沒有，我們最壞能夠接受的就是「Chinese Taipei」。「Chinese Taipei」是我們中華民國的臺北，你沒講……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當然這個部分，委員應該能夠理解，我們在國際處境上，我們要參與一個正式組織，然後實際的做交流跟合作，發揮我們的力量，以及我們臺灣對於國際社會的貢獻能夠展現出來，我覺得這就是最實質的交流。"],["賴委員士葆：「Taipei,Chinese」太離譜了啦！那這個政府就不要喊得那麼大聲，一天到晚要正名、正名，國際場合那個真槍實彈不是在這裡……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們還是要表達我們的立場跟態度，態度、立場依然是要表達的。"],["賴委員士葆：你講了老半天，就是連提案都沒有提案，這是你失職，你失職，好歹要有人幫你提案，你要去fight，輸了沒有關係，對不對？我們輸沒有關係，但是你要fight，你連fight都沒有fight，這個你失職！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們有強烈的爭取。"],["賴委員士葆：另外，現在是報稅季，我們看到現在為止，證交稅增加了134億，綜所稅增加了66億，牌照稅增加30億，房地合一稅增加52億，4個月加一加，今年最少稅收增加1,000億，最少增加1,000億，我這樣算法你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，因為整個報稅在5月跟6月的大筆稅款會進來，所以真正可以增加多少，可能要到7月以後會稍微明朗一點，那9月後還有數字。"],["賴委員士葆：用4月來推估啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：4月來推估的話……"],["賴委員士葆：我給你加一加的話就是250億左右。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為它占的比例，在我們整年的稅收裡面還不是占比最高的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我低估啦，1,000億以上，又有超徵的……"],["莊部長翠雲：今年是因為證交稅確實是增加，因為證交稅我們在編預算的時候，是以日成交量3,500億來估的，現在因為都超過3,500億，所以證交稅的部分確實是有增加。"],["賴委員士葆：那這樣還反對證交稅調降嗎？調降再5年嘛，你們要反對嗎？讓你們稅收增加這麼多。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為到年底的時候，當沖降稅這個部分會要再做一個檢討，所以我們會再跟金管會就這個部分來做討論。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你建議，有人說當沖都賠錢，不應該鼓勵他們，好，那這個就類似抽菸一樣啊，抽菸有害健康，但還是賣菸啦，所以賣菸時上面會寫抽菸有害健康，你要買自己負責，同樣你們就掛一個警語說當沖都賠錢，他自己要做當沖，他自己負責，這也是可以考慮的啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：而且稅收增加這麼多，我看今年的證交稅又可以增加1,000億，這樣算法可以增加1,000億。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意見我們會一併納入考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：我這種提議可以嗎？是善意的建言。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員的建議，我們會納入考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：類似抽菸的那個概念，當沖平均都賠錢，假如這個是真的。我現在正在跑這個資料，我是打一個問號？當沖是平均都賠錢，你們自己負責，對稅收有幫助，這不是兩全其美嗎？想一下。","我們再看一個東西，你們目前對於身心障礙者有特別扣除額20.7萬，慢性精神病的人有19.2萬人，其他疾病如癌症、先天性特殊疾病、燙傷等等，有重大傷病卡患者有104萬人之多，有沒有可能把其他的這些癌症也統統放進來？我算過稅損不會太多，大概了不起二、三十億，但是可以照顧這麼多領有重大傷病卡的患者，家屬負擔都很重的，你可以考慮嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分可能要審慎地來考量一下，其他的病症要包含到什麼？因為目前是對於有身心障礙者有特別扣除額，但其他的病症要到什麼樣的範圍以及是不是有必要，我們再來……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你要知道癌症病患很多，我所瞭解，大醫院像臺大、榮總住房的三分之一是癌症病患，癌症的藥非常貴，很多是自費的，癌症應該納進來。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，但相關的醫療支出，在所得裡面已經扣除了。"],["賴委員士葆：你們如果對這事情都無動於衷，我來修法，對身心障礙者特別扣除額，我就增加為身心障礙者及重大疾病者，這樣子適用範圍就大了，我覺得這部分是應該要認真考慮的。","因為我時間到了，最後一個小問題也是很重要，臺美　經貿倡議承諾要避免雙重課稅一事，掌握進度怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，臺美經貿倡議裡面跟雙重課稅其實是兩件事，也就是臺美避免雙重課稅的法案在眾議院過了，目前在參議院的部分，外交部以及駐美代表處也持續的跟美方在溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以過？"],["莊部長翠雲：時間上說真的有一點不太確定，為什麼？因為我們那個法案是包裹在……"],["賴委員士葆：今年底有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：今年底有沒有可能？我們希望今年底可以完成，為什麼？因為他們也有選舉的因素要考量。"],["賴委員士葆：選舉，它就會過，我認為會過啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我當然希望是。"],["賴委員士葆：那就今年年底，他們今年年底選舉啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：如果過的話，我們要不要修法？"],["莊部長翠雲：就法律的部分，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：我們要不要修法？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不需要修，我們是透過雙方換文來確定，這樣我們就可以在國內生效。"],["賴委員士葆：換文確定，難道不要經過立法院嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分在相關的所得稅法還有稅捐稽徵法裡面都有授權規定了……"],["賴委員士葆：備查。"],["莊部長翠雲：都有授權規定……"],["賴委員士葆：就你們的行政命令……"],["莊部長翠雲：就可以完成了。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，現在來講，像馬斯克的Starlink2021就開始了，就是境外電商要落地不落地等等，這個有沒有幫助，能夠避免雙重課稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我是不是請我們國財司司長來做說明？"],["賴委員士葆：好，簡短，我時間到了。"],["丁司長碧蓮：基本上，我們租稅協定是解決所得稅的雙重課稅，所以如果這個業者或者是人民有在跨境間的雙重課稅問題的時候，租稅協定才會適用。"],["賴委員士葆：我就一句話，其實現在境外電商在臺灣是發展得非常的興盛，但是稅的問題一直是很多人關心的，這些基本上都接近逃稅，都不課稅的，你們課不到的，這個你們要想辦法，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員質詢。","接著請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員不在。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.99659375,"end":5.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.37596875,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.41346875,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.324093750000003,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.602218750000002,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.99409375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.559093750000002,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.58846875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.80346875,"end":27.840968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.84534375,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.840968750000002,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.02659375,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.06034375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.07721875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.11096875,"end":28.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.16159375,"end":28.937843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.05596875,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.07284375,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.148468750000003,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.962218750000005,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.548468750000005,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.68346875,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.03784375,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.45971875,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.49721875,"end"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你說我要去爭取權益連畢業證明服我們最少能夠接受的權益是台幣"},{"start":232.635,"end":238.5,"text":"呃跟委員報告齁當然這個部分齁我們的呃應該理解我們的國在國際處境上我們在一個正式組織裡面參與然後實際的做交流跟合作發揮我們的一個力量以及對於我們台灣對社會國際社會的貢獻能夠展現出來我覺得這是更實質的交流"},{"start":260.417,"end":288.302,"text":"國際場合那個真槍實彈不是在這裡但是我們還是要表達我們的立場跟態度態度跟立場依然是要表達的你講老半天就是提案都沒有提案部長你失職你失職你好歹要有人幫你提案然後去fight輸沒有關係對不對我們輸沒有關係但是要fight你連fight都沒有fight這個你失職我們在看了來現在報稅季"},{"start":290.629,"end":310.792,"text":"我們看到到現在為止,政交稅增加了134億,總索稅增加了66億,牌照稅增加30億,黃幣合一稅增加了52億,四個月加一加,今年最少稅收增加1000億,最少增加1000億,我這樣算法你同意嗎?"},{"start":312.657,"end":338.464,"text":"因為整個報稅在5月跟6月的大筆稅款會進來所以真正可以增加多少可能要到7月以後會稍微明朗一點那9月還有數字用4月來推估啊4月來推估的話我跟你加一加的話就是250億左右因為它佔的比例還比較在我們整年的稅收裡面不是大還不是佔比比較高的我低估啦1000億以上又超震的"},{"start":340.185,"end":359.6,"text":"那今年的因為徵交稅增加的確實是因為我們徵交稅我們在編預算的時候是日成交量是3500億來估的那現在因為都超過3500億所以徵交稅的部分是有確實有增加徵交稅條件是5年嗎你沒有反對嗎他不讓你們稅收增加這麼多"},{"start":361.817,"end":378.915,"text":"這個部分因為到年底的時候當沖降稅這個部分會要再做一個檢討所以我們會再跟金管會這個部分來做一個檢討我給你建議啦我給你建議那是那個你現在說噢有人說這個當沖都那麼了不起喔不應該鼓勵他們好"},{"start":380.16,"end":407.658,"text":"那這個就類似臭煙一樣啊臭煙有害健康但是還是賣煙啊所以在賣煙裡面上面寫一個臭煙有害健康你要買自己同樣你們就花一個金魚說當中容量錢他要當中他自己付準這個是可以考慮的啊是 了解委員所以說增加這麼多我看這個今年的增加稅又可以增加一千億喔按這樣算法可以增加一千億喔增加這麼多"},{"start":409.515,"end":436.775,"text":"我想委員的意見我們會一併納入考慮我這個提議可以嗎?因為 善例的建言說這個類似草菸的那個概念說當初平均都了解假如這個是真的我現在正在跑這個資料我是打一個問號當初是平均都了解按你們自己負責"},{"start":438.597,"end":452.103,"text":"對稅收有幫助這不是兩全其名嗎?想一下喔來我們再看一個東西喔你們目前啊對於身心障礙者有特別扣除了20.7萬"},{"start":455.094,"end":458.015,"text":"賴士葆 賴士葆 賴士葆 賴士葆 賴士葆 賴士葆 賴士葆 賴"},{"start":475.064,"end":484.812,"text":"我算過稅損不會太多大概留不起二三十億但是可以照顧這麼多重大的傷病卡的患者加速負擔都很重的啦"},{"start":490.812,"end":494.656,"text":"你可以考慮嗎?你要知道家裡有多少癌症也有癌症很多"},{"start":511.614,"end":532.172,"text":"我所了解大的醫院像台大龍總那個住房的三分之一是癌症的那個癌症的藥非常貴很多是自費的癌症應該納進來但是相關的醫療支出其實在所得裏面是透出的如果對這個事情無動於衷我來修法"},{"start":532.97,"end":555.632,"text":"把這個啊 這個身心障礙者特別扣除了我就加一個身心障礙者及重大疾病者這樣子 使用範圍就大了我覺得這部分是應該認真考慮的最後一個 因為我時間到了最後一個小問題喔 也是很重要台美經濟倡議台大要避免雙重課稅掌握進度怎麼樣"},{"start":556.75,"end":557.09,"text":"今天底可能嗎?今天底?"},{"start":582.728,"end":608.852,"text":"今年底有沒有可能我們希望我們希望今年底可以完成為什麼因為他們也有選舉的因素要表亮選舉他就會過了我認為會過了是那我當然希望那就今年年底啦他選舉今年年底選啊是如果過的話我們要不要修法就法律的部分我們要不要修法我們不需要修我們是透過雙方範文來確定那這樣我們就可以玩在國內就受效範文確定難道不要經過立法院嗎"},{"start":610.092,"end":636.759,"text":"這個部分在相關的《稅則稅法》還有《稅捐基金法》裡面都有授權規定了就你們的行政命令就可以完成法律完成了這個現在來講像馬斯克的STAR LINK2021就開始來這個就是外面境外電商啊很多地方要落地不落地等等這個有沒有幫助啊如果能夠避免雙重課稅"},{"start":639.316,"end":650.101,"text":"這個部分我是不是請我們國財司司長來做說明?因為基本上我們租稅協定是解決雙重課稅所得稅的雙重課稅所以如果這個業者或者是人民有在我們跨境間的雙重課稅的問題的時候租稅協定才會使用"},{"start":667.291,"end":667.611,"text":"謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"152632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc300fb27f9702694722c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f0fea439d9936a0d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:13:49 - 11:25:08","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":679,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:25:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:13:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時13分）謝謝主席。先請金管會，好嗎？"],["主席：請金管會。"],["林委員思銘：今天司法院是刑事廳副廳長出席嗎？好。今天要審查的是刑法第三百三十九條之四的規定，針對詐欺犯的刑度，本席有聽到沈伯洋說的，因為詐欺犯罪的危害防制條例已經提出，就是打詐四法已經提出，他認為刑法第三百三十九條之四沒有修正的必要，當然，這個部分待會請部長回答。","本席要先對今天金管會的專案報告提問，針對刑法第三百三十九條之四第五款，增訂金融、電信、網際網路事業負責人或從業人員，利用業務上之機會或方法犯罪的加重條文，這一條是對行為人是否具有特定身分而加重處罰，金管會認為不宜立這個法，因為詐欺犯的可罰性在於主觀犯意及行為態樣，所以具有特定身分的人，不宜予以加重處罰。本席想了解一下，因為你們寫得很簡單，金管會反對的理由到底是什麼？"],["劉組長萬基：關於這個條文，其實在行政院的時候有討論過類似的議題，當時行政院各部會是認為，第一，就刑事的可責性來說，其實打詐專法已經把詐欺犯罪加重處罰，現在不管是誰，不管是金融從業人員、電信犯或任何人，他利用職務上的機會犯罪的話，其實按照現在新的打詐專法都應該加重處罰，所以不應就個人的身分再重複評價一次，這在刑事政策上是雙重評價，並不適合。"],["林委員思銘：本席知道。您剛才提到打詐專法有針對相關電信從業人員加重處罰的規定……"],["劉組長萬基：沒有加重處罰。"],["林委員思銘：對，本席看就沒有，所以不知道你剛才在說什麼。"],["劉組長萬基：是討論後認為不需要加重處罰。"],["林委員思銘：認為不需要？"],["劉組長萬基：不需要，對。"],["林委員思銘：本席告訴你，本案提案委員的立法理由寫得很清楚，就是因為近來爆發銀行行員、電信業者參與詐欺犯罪，惡行重大，因為他的職業外觀易使受詐民眾難以防範，所以才會修正這一條，對金融、電信、網際網路事業的負責人或從業人員，利用業務上之機會或方法犯詐欺罪者加重處罰，立法理由寫得很清楚啊！"],["劉組長萬基：是。我會再跟……"],["林委員思銘：所以本席現在問你，因為剛才法務部黃次長有提到，他們好像也反對這一條，你們的理由是各個金融法規裡面都有相關規定，對於這些從業人員，如果有參與共犯或者協助詐欺犯，會有處罰的規定，所以本席也想問一下金管會，如果是電信業者、金融業者或是網際網路業者的負責人或從業人員，利用職務上之機會犯下這些詐欺罪，相關金融法規有處罰的規定嗎？"],["劉組長萬基：有。就像法務部的報告寫的，在我們的金融法規裡面，其實處罰得更重，這部分的罰度其實是更重的。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們相關的個別法規，針對這種身分犯已經有處罰的規定？"],["劉組長萬基：有，是的。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們要說清楚啊！你們應該直接說這種身分犯有相關的規定，你們的回答應該和本席今天說的一樣，專案報告也應該這樣寫，應該說明在你們的各種法規裡面，其實已經有相關的處罰或者加重的規定，這是本席的建議啦！你們未來寫專案報告可能要慎重一點。"],["劉組長萬基：是，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：好，你請回。接下來請副廳長。副廳長，剛才王鴻薇委員也問過，就是這次爆發律師勾結詐騙集團，做他們的軍師，甚至幫他們洗錢，法務部檢察機關也起訴鄭鴻威等16名律師，以及一名會計師和一名助理，這個案子前天媒體還揭露有涉案律師藏了300萬元在橋頭地院的實習法官房間裡面。請問副廳長，調查的結果如何？"],["陳副廳長信旗：如果從報載來看，目前應該是橋頭地院正在處理中。"],["林委員思銘：所以還沒有調查出結果？"],["陳副廳長信旗：可能還沒有調查出結果。"],["林委員思銘：我們就從報載來看，這個實習法官說他和這位律師認識，這個律師拿了300萬元給他，是因為他過去在建設公司上班，所以委託他買房子。你覺得這個辯詞合理嗎？"],["陳副廳長信旗：這些都是報載，我想還是要看具體的事實，再由……"],["林委員思銘：是，副廳長，但不管是不是報載，這個法官的警覺性、敏感性這麼不足，真的讓人無言以對啦！"],["陳副廳長信旗：了解。"],["林委員思銘：有人拿300萬元給你，而且還是律師，難道你不會問這300萬元的來源嗎？他的警覺性應該要特別高嘛！這是一件很離譜的事情。他們的辯詞到底可不可以被採信？司法院要做很詳盡的調查，這很丟臉。"],["陳副廳長信旗：委員，法院和司法院一定會做詳盡的調查。"],["林委員思銘：這是很丟臉的一件事情。"],["陳副廳長信旗：了解。"],["林委員思銘：對方拿300萬元寄藏在他那邊，因為過去他在建設公司上班，所以請他幫忙仲介買房子。你現在是仲介人員嗎？你是法官耶！卻去做幫人仲介買房子的業務，這樣不適合啦！"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，對……"],["林委員思銘：本席希望司法院對這件事情要嚴加查明，因為這涉及到司法的威信。"],["陳副廳長信旗：是，這部分有沒有涉及違法，或者涉及違反法官倫理規範，我們一定會查明。"],["林委員思銘：本席身為法律人都覺得很汗顏，怎麼會有這樣的事情爆發呢？過去我們的司法從業人員，不管是律師或是法官，我們都是很謹慎的，怎麼可能會代收那麼大筆的金額？這還不是小錢，有300萬元，還幫他藏在房間裡面，完全沒有警戒心，完全沒有警覺，這樣很離譜！","當然，最後歸根究底，我們還是要談到今天的主題，因為詐欺集團這種組織犯罪已經讓我們的菁英分子被利欲薰心，失去他當初不管是擔任律師或法官時，為了實踐社會正義、實踐司法正義的理念，真的很可惜。本席接下來要請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長，剛才王鴻薇委員有提到，對於這種參與詐騙的律師，因為惡性重大，真的要嚴懲。他剛才有提到要修律師法，就是對這些參與、協助詐欺集團的律師，他剛才是說一審才除名。本席想問部長，針對他這個建議，未來法務部是否考量在修律師法的時候，把這種參與詐欺犯罪的律師除名？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們非常同意。"],["林委員思銘：贊同啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：尤其律師是懂法律的人，更不應該知法犯法，所以這次檢察官很積極的查辦，最後才能夠起訴這麼多律師。"],["林委員思銘：是。所以也建議法務部，對律師法要做相關的修正，好不好？儘速提出修正。"],["蔡部長清祥：好的。"],["林委員思銘：最後，針對揭弊者保護法的部分，行政院的版本到底什麼時候可以提出？"],["蔡部長清祥：院會已經審查通過，應該在進行中，很快就會送到大院。"],["林委員思銘：一個禮拜嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為是行政院在處理，我會轉達。"],["林委員思銘：部長，這個部分拖太久了，大家都很有意見。當然，你們剛才說要公私分流，法務部或廉政署剛才也一直提到希望公部門先行。本席有一個建議，如果揭弊者保護法這個部分公部門要先行的話，本席個人是贊成的，但是你們的版本要趕快送到立法院，因為有這麼多委員提案，今天召委也特別排審，如果公部門的行政院版本也一起併同審查，本席認為這部法案三讀通過的速度可能會快一點。","所以希望、拜託法務部，儘快在一個禮拜內送來，不要再拖了。一個禮拜內請行政院完成審議，既然你們有打詐和揭弊的決心，請你們於一個禮拜之內把揭弊者保護法的版本送到立法院。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們主管的廉政署在場，他們會轉達這個訊息，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。以下由林委員代理主席。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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11:13:41","影片長度":"00:05:13","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":313,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:13:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:08:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時8分）謝謝，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。今天其實有兩個議題，一個是刑法第三百三十九條之四，一個是揭弊者保護法，本席就集中在刑法第三百三十九條之四，因為4分鐘的時間可能沒有辦法問到揭弊者的部分。關於刑法第三百三十九條之四，本席想先問一下部長，部長應該知道打詐專法已經提出了，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：其實打詐專法也有一些加重處罰的規定，針對詐騙的部分。"],["蔡部長清祥：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：和現在的刑法第三百三十九條之四，其實應該併在一起討論，但因為今天的議程並沒有打詐專法，所以我們也只能先討論刑法第三百三十九條之四。原本的第三百三十九條之四，刑度是一到七年，我們稍微綜整一下，因為修正草案真的太多了，有改成六個月以上五年以下、一年以上七年以下、五到十二年，本席想問一下部長，五到十二年這種立法體例，你們常看到嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：很少看到這樣的刑度。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，應該很少看到。三到七年呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：三到七年滿多的。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，三到十年、三到七年、無期徒刑或七年以上。說真的，大家都想用加重處罰的方式遏止詐欺，但本席想要說的是，以目前全世界的文獻來說，的確遏止詐欺是重要的事情，臺灣的詐欺案件也越來越多，但是以目前的狀況來說，說真的，大家並不認為重刑是唯一可以解決的方式。如果我們今天真的要討論詐騙這件事情，其實應該完整的討論，所以這邊本席先跳過，因為這邊有太多奇怪的規定，甚至包括金額巨大這種法律不確定性的概念。","本席想要說的是，以目前臺灣或是全世界的論文來說，本席大概整理了幾個比較重要的詐騙防堵手法，一個當然是網路電信和金融管理，這和金管會、數發部有點關係，再來就是臺灣比較特別的部分，因為滿多都發生在東南亞國家，像柬埔寨等等，所以我們和他們的司法互助就變得非常重要。另外還有科技偵查，就是到底有沒有辦法用科技偵查，逮到我們想要逮到的詐騙集團，這個也很重要。還有檢警調的偵查能量，以及和教育部比較有關的或是和法務部有關的一些宣導。","我們的打詐專法提出之後，其實這幾個機制都有，但本席個人認為還是有所不足啦！但至少它已經有一個雛形，因為這些事情都遠比剛才說的加重刑罰來得更重要，也比刑法第三百三十九條之四來得重要。本席知道部長應該也很想好好的介紹這個法律案，但礙於時間因素，因為只有4分鐘，所以本席先這樣帶過去。","本席有兩個問題想要特別請教，第一個問題，三人以上犯這件事情，在刑法第三百三十九條之四本來就有加重處罰的規定，但這一次在打詐專法裡面，或者在有些委員的提案裡面，把三人以上犯案和其他的部分合在一起，又變成加重處罰的一項，這可能會有重複評價的問題，本席覺得值得討論。","另外一個就是民眾黨一直在說的，他們說他們在想像競合的時候，因為有組織犯罪條例，另外又有刑法第三百三十九條之四，當想像競合之後，組織犯罪條例的部分就沒有了，所以他們想要排除競合的規定。本席想問部長關於排除想像競合這件事情，請問這在立法例上常見嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：要看個案的情節如何，適用哪一個法律比較適當，可以由審判的法官做最後裁量。這個部分在法律上雖然會有一點重疊的地方，不過可以透過個案解決的方式處理。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，本席覺得部長說得很好。想像競合本來就是一個正常的規定，以民眾黨一直提的那個案件為例，他說每一個都是六個月的刑期，最後應該是六年六個月，但其實在數罪併罰之後，他的最重刑本來就可以往上到五年、六年。","也就是說，它明明就是由法官量刑，只是因為這個案件可能和解，或可能有其他的處理方式，所以最後這個案件並沒有判得那麼重。如果今天是量刑這個部分想要把他判得更重一點，不應該是修法，這是法官的自由心證問題。所以呢？本席一直覺得這些提案都非常奇怪，司法院和法務部的意見應該都有提到這個問題。","本席個人建議，在打詐專法還沒有送進來之前，刑法第三百三十九條之四的修法應該完全不用考慮，因為這樣不但不符合法律原則，不符合刑度的設計，也不符合現行的潮流，更完全違反法律原則的修法方式，本席個人是不太看好啦！本席先說到這邊，謝謝。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","接下來請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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Kacaw、鄭天財Sra Kacaw、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員不在。","請麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員，除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有林憶君委員、麥玉珍委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。剛剛本席有請國安局提供的資料，兩週內提供給本席，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.40534375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.11284375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.609718750000006,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.63034375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.35534375,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.532218750000006,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.81221875,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.29721875,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.92159375,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.63846875,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.36346875000001,"end":95.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.74596875,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.29409375,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.98159375,"end":101.50034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.17971875,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.50034375000001,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.56784375000001,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.79471875,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.34721875000001,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.70159375,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.35971875000001,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.48159375,"end":113.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.26909375000001,"end":123.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.28159375000001,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.52909375000002,"end":135.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.24596875,"end":153.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.81971875000002,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.80034375,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.11659375000002,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.36471875,"end":175.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.06659375,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.07846875,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.85846875000001,"end":186.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.80221875,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.49784375000002,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.41284375,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.58096875,"end":235.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.59784375,"end":234.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.07846875,"end":236.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.44971875000002,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.00221875000003,"end":274.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.30096875000004,"end":271.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.38471875,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.04221875,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.89284375,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.79971875,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.69346875,"end":297.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.23346875000004,"end":301.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.53659375,"end":317.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.12471875,"end":319.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.37346875000003,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.58596875,"end":337.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.82159375000003,"end":343.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.55534375,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.14846875,"end":361.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.27409375,"end":372.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.05284375,"end":375.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.24221875,"end":398.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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對不對所以接下來本席要請問因為委員長都感覺到這個壓力所以在這個情況之下那也有人說僑委會的存廢或者是財病"},{"start":214.6,"end":232.591,"text":"有的其他國家也把僑委的這個工作量能是放在外交部那我們現在是並行那要請教當然目前為止我們還是已存在就是我們僑委會獨立機關單位目前還是如此那你的看法呢"},{"start":233.655,"end":247.31,"text":"怎麼樣可以加強這個力道呢?照顧我們的僑民呢?是,我們常常在外界在有時候應要去演說的時候我都會跟我們的受眾這樣子說因為僑委會存在到今天"},{"start":250.794,"end":279.669,"text":"是因為歷史的因素而且是因為事實的需要而且我們國家處境這樣的困難的情況之下二軌外交或者是說我們整體對外力量的整合是有必要的同時我們應該要第一個我是很感謝感謝我們海外的僑界他們非常支持自由民主的中華民國非常支持我們台灣因此我們這個力量不要忽視了也因為如此所以我們更要精進我們的方案跟行動"},{"start":280.569,"end":280.93,"text":"請國安局副局長"},{"start":296.898,"end":317.196,"text":"五二零將至大家都很期待大家也關心我們各方有什麼樣的安全性所以網路攻擊你們號稱是中共慣用的手法國安局密切在注意嗎?"},{"start":318.217,"end":319.078,"text":"那我們怎麼及時應處呢?"},{"start":343.659,"end":371.997,"text":"我們在應處上當然這裡面我們當然就是我們有一個監控的機制而且還有包括國安團隊跟行政部門我們有一些互相通報的因為你告訴我們說必要時也會揭露什麼叫必要時會揭露給民眾安心呢就是因為它有一些有一些比較比如說比較特別的一些手法一些往親的一些手法的時候我們就"},{"start":374.283,"end":398.189,"text":"會適時的來做提醒所以這個也要請我們國安局加緊腳步謹慎以待因為民眾聽到說如果有必要時會揭露所以大家相對也越來越緊張人民所需要的是希望安心所以要請國安局來加油所以本席要請教也就是說"},{"start":399.289,"end":413.877,"text":"我們國安局一直都說這個大陸的這個一貫一貫策略那這個一貫策略他從一萬多到這個百萬多到兩百萬多是倍增是倍增那未來不知道"},{"start":414.497,"end":433.817,"text":"所以我方必須要有因應因為民眾我再次強調要的就是一個安全跟安心我們也希望兩岸可以和平共談和平交流和平對流那這樣子對整個我們國家的一個安全度以及整個國家向世界各國來聯繫的"},{"start":435.339,"end":435.98,"text":"國安局的立場"},{"start":447.459,"end":476.779,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們當然要除了剛剛所報告的就是我們隨時在做一些監控必要的時候我們也做揭露為什麼要做揭露也要我們要提醒民眾提醒我們的社會因為有一些被害親事實上是自己在操作的時候也有一些操作上有一些沒有按照一些嚴謹的治安規定也有這方面也都有所以事實的提醒揭露提醒是有必要的"},{"start":477.802,"end":478.043,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc302a61523a75e19ddfbe5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0fecaee02b3b2993a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:09:27 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11:19:08","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-12"},"duration":581,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:19:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:09:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時9分）有請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長好，剛才去拍這一屆整體內閣的畢業照，對不對？今天還是陳院長主持的院會，最後一次院會。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，最後一次。"],["李委員彥秀：最後一次的畢業照。陳院長在院會上有提到一段話，他提到我們國內的經濟穩健成長，我們帶動稅收持續增加，可以落實政府各項支出檢討的情況下，國家的財政是持續改善。這是在今年4月18日說的。部長，我在5月6日10天前，在你出國前，我有特別問到國債鐘的問題，國債鐘在今年達到6兆3,528億元，我們的債務未償餘額每個人負擔是27.1萬元。部長，當時你提到說5月之後因為我們會有綜所稅、所得稅，所以會陸陸續續還債，你回答我說國債的問題會逐步趨緩，你還有印象吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好。部長，今年5月15日國庫署發布的國債鐘訊息，你知道我們現在的國債鐘達到多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：向委員報告，最新5月10日的國債鐘是到27萬4,000元，也跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這是不是歷史新高啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告一下，那個國債問題……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我先問你，過去有達到27.4萬元這麼高的數字嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：在去年這個時候是27.2萬元，所以是比去年高0.2萬元。"],["李委員彥秀：所以27.4萬元是不是一個歷史新高的數字？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，國債鐘這個部分，國債鐘是涵蓋了長債跟短債……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，有6年以下要還的，有5年以下要還的，有1年之內要還的，這27.4萬元是不是一個歷史新高的數字？你回答我是或不是。"],["莊部長翠雲：確實是比之前國債鐘的數字來得高，但是也跟委員報告，歷年來在上半年的部分，國債鐘都會比較高，在5月、6月的時候就會下降，因為5月、6月有大筆的稅款入帳。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我都清楚，部長不要浪費我的時間，你聽我講完。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我都知道你5月要還債，但是跟同期比照，它就是一個歷史新高的數字，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，比去年的27.2萬元高了2,000元。"],["李委員彥秀：這個是歷年來最高，過去從來沒有這麼高，之前27.1萬是最高，再來是27.2萬元，今年我問你的時候是27.1萬元，現在達到27.4萬元，它是一個歷史新高，這不可否認，數字寫在眼前，我知道每一年5月的時候我們都在還債，這個我很清楚，但是跟同期相比，它就是一個歷史新高的數字。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們會在5月、6月有大筆稅款進來時優先還債，這個數字就會往下降，往年來說，在第1季跟5月之前都是比較高的，所以國債鐘基本上是一個浮動變動性的，我們在今年6月會把……執行完畢……"],["李委員彥秀：但是陳建仁說我們國家的財政狀況越來越好，陳建仁所說的財政越來越好，難道就是蔡英文和陳內閣送給臺灣人的畢業禮物嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：我們今天才去拍畢業照片，我們的國債鐘在5月10號、5月14號達到歷史的新高，這個鐵錚錚的數字就是寫在眼前，你剛才回答每一年5月底，我都知道你每一年5月底都會還債，這個不管是不是你當部長，歷任的部長都是這樣子在做，但是跟同期比，它數字就是寫在眼前嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：短期融資在國庫的調度上是有必要的，所以在短債的部分會有增加，但是我們會儘快的還債，讓國債鐘下降，而且實際債務比例是26.5%，是非常低的。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你對財政的狀況怎麼去處理，那是你的財政手段，但是健全跟有紀律的財政關係，在我監督單位看來，這會影響到整體的社會正義，國債鐘的狀況達27.4萬元，我還沒有討論到隱形臺灣負債已經到達16兆，我如果有時間花個一、兩個小時，我們來答詢，這16兆放進來怎麼去處理？這又是另外一個很大的課題。所以，部長，我看到今年國債鐘達到27.4萬元了，是蔡政府留下歷史新高的國債紀錄，這個絕對是一個不及格的成績單！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，不是這樣的……"],["李委員彥秀：因為接下來包括兩位次長是留任的，況且數字寫在眼前。","繼續我要問第二個問題，因為我今天詢答的時間很少，我還是要問一下你去亞銀的事情。亞銀今年是在喬治亞舉辦，你也提到強化氣候融資的問題，這個問題我非常感興趣，未來有時間你也還在位置上我們還有機會好好來討論。請問在你擔任部長之後，你代表我們參加了幾次亞銀？"],["莊部長翠雲：第二次，今年是第二次。"],["李委員彥秀：會員國裡面有多少成員體在裡頭？"],["莊部長翠雲：有六十幾國。"],["李委員彥秀：六十幾個？"],["莊部長翠雲：68個會員國。"],["李委員彥秀：好，終於搞清楚了。部長，那在會員國裡面，我們的邦交國有幾個？"],["莊部長翠雲：邦交國……，我可以再另外跟委員報告。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你對於我們參加的名稱滿不滿意？"],["莊部長翠雲：參加的名稱當然不滿意，第一個跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你不要跟我報告，我們歷年參加WHA或是參加聯合國相關的組織，我們都希望邦交國及跟我們友好的國家能夠幫我們發聲，我請問你，我們在57年當時參加的時候，我們是創始會員國，我們是用「中華民國」的名義參加。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員彥秀：這麼多年來，今年美國也說要支持我們參加國際的組織，我們能夠更名也是我們期望的，但在這件事情上，今年你第二次參加，我們做了什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們……"],["李委員彥秀：你有沒有跟會員國及我們邦交國聯繫，希望他們幫我們提案，我們要更名，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們絕對有提，我們在理事年會強烈的表達對這件事情的不滿……"],["李委員彥秀：今年嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：今年、去年都有，我們持續的表達。"],["李委員彥秀：你參加了嗎？你有跟他們溝通嗎？你做了什麼？他們有幫我們提案嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我覺得這是一個長期性的問題……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你不要跟我說這是長期性的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們要表達我們的立場。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我不是在責怪你，這件事情來講，除了你代表臺灣參加之外，代表我們中華民國參加之外，外交部也應該有角色在裡頭。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我不完全責怪你，所以我今天問外交部在這件事情上有做什麼事情嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：外交部當然也持續都在努力，我覺得我們的……"],["李委員彥秀：如果會員成員體裡面有我們三個邦交國，而在今年做了什麼事情，我在新聞上、媒體上都沒有看到，連你都答不出來會員成員體裡面到底有我們幾個邦交國，我對於今年更名這件事情，我們整體行政部門、外交部跟您這邊的努力，我就會有很多的問號！部長，因為所有我們參加的相關的國際活動裡面，我相信亞銀在名稱上是對我們最不好的一個名稱，我想你非常清楚。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，理解，實際上，我們的態度跟立場，在理事年會我們都有強烈的聲明，同時更重要的是，我們要有實質的交流跟合作，讓我們在亞銀裡面……"],["李委員彥秀：實質的交流合作，我們當然能夠發揮我們的力量，但是更名是我們長期以來重要的目標。"],["莊部長翠雲：那是的。"],["李委員彥秀：外交部每年喊得那麼大聲，無論參加WHA或是參加國際型的組織，但是我非常遺憾的，我今年沒有看到任何外交部的活動及相關的努力在裡頭，所以我不知道外交部到底有做什麼，我從媒體上看到是零，是沒有的，到底我們的邦交國有沒有幫我們發言？你連有三個邦交國在成員體裡面都搞不清楚，所以對於這一次要更名也好，或是接下來希望邦交國幫我們努力也好，我覺得外交部在這件事情上是不及格的成績。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都要一起努力，我想這個部分我們都會繼續做，我們在理事年會也明確地表達我們的立場跟態度。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，520之後你會繼續留任，接下來在下個禮拜我還有機會質詢你，國債鐘的問題、國家財政的改善，我覺得蔡英文是留下不及格的成績單。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們大家一起努力。"],["李委員彥秀：後面賴政府上任卓內閣上任後要怎麼處理，就看你的智慧了，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","繼續請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.70596875,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.489093750000002,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.222843750000003,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.25159375,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.03471875000001,"end":98.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.50096875000001,"end":98.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":154.57221875000002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理解我想這個我們的態度跟立場在理事年會我們都有強烈的聲明同時我們要更重要的是我們要有實質的交流跟合作讓在我們在亞營裡面實質的交流合作我們當然能夠發揮我們的力量但是長期更名是我們重要的目標那是的"},{"start":519.025,"end":545.973,"text":"外交部每年喊得那麼大聲無論參加WHA參加國際型的組織但是我非常遺憾的我今年沒有看到任何外交部的活動相關的努力在裡頭所以我不知道外交部到底有做什麼在我從媒體上看到是零是沒有到底我們的邦交國有沒有幫我們發言你連邦交國有三個國家在成員體裡面你都搞不清楚所以我對於這一次"},{"start":547.284,"end":562.587,"text":"要更名也好在接下來我們希望邦交國幫我們努力也好我覺得外交部在這件事情上是不及格的層級我們都要一起努力的我想這個部分我們都會繼續做是我們在理事年會也明確的表達我們的立場跟態度"},{"start":562.867,"end":563.047,"text":"李彥秀"}]}},{"id":"152628","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3090b3692662a2f8bf9d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0f942b5e30a9ca234d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:11:15 - 11:18:16","影片長度":"00:07:01","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「學校午餐法制化」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-16","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:11:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-16T11:18:16+08:00","duration":421,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.94346875,"end":129.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.17096875000001,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.30221875,"end":345.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.93471875,"end":421.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.40846875000005,"end":419.91471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.169,"end":0.349,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20.2,"end":20.721,"text":"這幾方的意見都非常的重要那我剛剛在辦公室裡面"},{"start":49.881,"end":53.844,"text":"若學生在學校裡身心不安全不健康,再好的教師或學習資源都無法吸收"},{"start":72.837,"end":78.781,"text":"學生身心安全健康 校安食安最基本回到營養午餐我們食安有做到嗎?2023年我跟食藥署要的資料食藥署統計的食物中毒事件有"},{"start":88.707,"end":107.358,"text":"三分之一是在學校裡面那總共就有1491名受害者所以食安問題有三分之一在學校代表我們既有的就是公餐方式其實風險非常的高那當然也是去年我們民間團體調查國中生對營養午餐的看法74.8%不喜歡菜色61%裡面有他不喜歡的味道"},{"start":115.382,"end":115.402,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":130.236,"end":130.576,"text":"學校午餐教育法"},{"start":148.237,"end":148.257,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":178.117,"end":178.417,"text":"石農教育法"},{"start":204.753,"end":205.373,"text":"教育及文化委員"},{"start":235.514,"end":254.324,"text":"我自己在去年也再次開了為了這個營養午餐專法就開了好多記者會跟我們越來越多的委員那也跟大家報告剛剛前面講是上一屆的事那在這一屆我進立法院連任之後我成立了一個為下一代而戰的國會連線我們超過10位立委那我們就決意透過討論我們要把營養午餐專法列為我們的六大重點法案因為我們是為了下一代"},{"start":264.13,"end":264.33,"text":"〈學校午餐法制化〉"},{"start":291.63,"end":292.45,"text":"韓國和日本的韓食和和食精神"},{"start":309.758,"end":309.898,"text":"韓國學者"},{"start":339.718,"end":341.359,"text":"教育部要有學校午餐委員會．地方要有食材供應中心"},{"start":356.144,"end":356.404,"text":"教育及文化委員會：范雲"},{"start":378.092,"end":386.895,"text":"不應該用堅韌的 堅韌的如果你又沒有讓他免行用公道他等於是開了一家學校餐廳耶 這麼多的人力營養師剛剛都有講過 至少是500比1還有帳務管理 公餐資訊透明化 還有飲食教育最後呢 主管機關的檢查權 應該要善盡督導 查好的權責"},{"start":399.619,"end":399.639,"text":"范雲"}]}},{"id":"152627","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3076cea80316044b25fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0ffb8caee38d4eefd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:08:04 - 11:13:53","影片長度":"00:05:49","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-21"},"duration":349,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:13:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:08:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時8分）好，謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：哪一個單位？"],["陳委員培瑜：陳立國常務次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請外交部陳次長，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，你好，我時間有限，我就直接跟您切入。關於中國統戰的事情，我就不再多說了，以我自己的專業領域，我來自教育界，專長是語文教育，關於孔子學院，我相信次長你一定非常清楚孔子學院長年滲透這件事情，到了近年，其實很多國家開始有警覺，有意識到孔子學院不只擔負語言交流的任務，其實也擔負了大量的政治責任，對嗎？"],["陳次長立國：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我們來看一下，在日經亞洲的報導提到，孔子學院逐漸被西方封鎖，可是在東南亞持續發展，我不知道你們有沒有關注到相關的訊息？"],["陳次長立國：一直持續都在關注。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那你們觀察到以後，有什麼給國人的建議或參考嗎？孔子學院為什麼跑到東南亞大量發展？而它對於東南亞當地，甚至對我們當地臺商，有沒有造成什麼相關的影響？"],["陳次長立國：跟委員報告，像過去這段時間，您也瞭解的，在美國也好，歐洲也好，對於孔子學院的本質、它背後的目的，也有比較深刻的理解，不管是透過法律手段或其他方法，來反制孔子學院散布或傳播對於中方有利的統戰作為。您剛剛提到為什麼會在東南亞看到有這種春風吹又生的情況，的確也是因為幾個因素，第一點，比如說，因為中國持續在這個地方有很多的活動，包括經貿活動、一帶一路，付出很多的努力，希望拉攏這些國家站到他們那一邊去，當然美方也有他們的作為，所以兩者之間的戰略競爭持續在全世界各地進行。您剛剛所提到的後續影響，因為只要有一個地方被遏止了，他們有很多手段去補救，可以改變名稱，換湯不換藥，再重新用別的名義來成立新的組織去運作，所以的確就是會打壓不盡，加上資源不斷，因為中國統戰部的資源一年超過3,000億臺幣，比他們外交部的資源還要多，人手還要更充足。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以回過頭來看，如果臺灣持續推新南向政策，你怎麼看當地臺商或當地學生，甚至是其他各式各樣非正式的交流，我們怎麼來看這個情況？我想要再跟次長您分享，我們看到還有另外一個日經的報導提到，光是蘋果的一台iPhone，其中臺廠供應的零組件占iPhone材料總成本36%，而且這36%的零件都是最有價值的零件，包含高階的核心處理器、5G的數據機，可是如果回頭來看，中國提供的技術跟中國提供的零件相對是低階的，所以最後這篇報導要說的其實就是我要跟次長您說的，他說儘管跟中國的經濟脫鉤不是容易的事情，可是跟臺灣脫鉤更是難上加難，意思就是不可以跟臺灣脫鉤，一旦跟臺灣脫鉤，光是iPhone就會受到很大的影響。你剛剛說它在西方的勢力逐漸消退，但是它在新的地方開始春風吹又生，那我要問，從過去文化的交流或是教育的交流，確實臺灣其實是有一些可以做的事情，除了我剛剛說的，在經濟上我們看到的零件、工業、其他的產業，可是以我自己最熟悉的教育文化產業來說，其實臺灣有很棒的文學作品或相關內容產業，有沒有機會透過你們的管道或是其他的管道去協助，然後增加我們臺灣在當地發聲、曝光的量能？我們用文化去做一種制衡跟對抗，你覺得呢？","我舉一個例子，AIT在宜蘭捐贈了一個美國資料專區的圖書區，放的當然不是大家不喜歡看的那些公務資料、公文資料，也不是政府出版品，就是一批好看的美國圖畫書、童書、成人書、小說，各式各樣的作品都有，甚至因為這個專區，設計了很多活動，其實很多旅外的華人也告訴我們，臺灣有很棒的作家、很棒的內容產業，但是你們有沒有角色、有沒有機會，透過你們的設計或政策，推廣到東南亞去？我們不直接跟孔子學院對戰，因為你剛剛說他們有龐大的預算是落在這個地方，那我們實質上到底還能夠做些什麼？所以我想要提出關於文化出版交流這個部分，甚至像波蘭也曾經送他們很重要的電玩作品給美國前總統歐巴馬，而臺灣也有非常棒的臺灣在地原創的電玩作品，我想要請你回應一下，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員您剛剛的提問，我們非常贊同，尤其委員剛剛所提到的，不同的角度和層面，來讓我們在各地，尤其東南亞的第一線外交工作，有包含文化外交跟軟實力這個層面，其實這些工作外交部連同其他相關的文化部會、僑委會，還有任何可以出力的部會，都對這個問題非常重視。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我們時間有限，我們等一下就會趕快下台，但是我要拜託您，我的辦公室之後會跟你們持續討論如何把好看的、有意義的、值得往外推廣的作品，跟教育部、文化部及你們的相關部會，以跨部會的方式，把這些作品做更積極的外溢跟推廣，甚至還有更多的活動或相關的內容產業，因為其實文化部在去年也提出了文化黑潮，確實我們很多內容產製量能越來越好，我相信透過外交部，一定也有相關力量可以協助臺灣這些創作者，好嗎？"],["陳次長立國：我們全力配合。謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。我們也會積極追蹤，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":3.3553437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.45221875,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":6.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.11846875,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.771593750000001,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.657218750000002,"end":54.351593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.705968750000004,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.71846875000001,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.93596875,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.74596875,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.02096875,"end":290.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.31471875,"end":315.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.22659375,"end":346.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.84221875000003,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.05284375,"end":347.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.89659375,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.07346875,"end":349.29284375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":8.438,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請今天是等一下次長 謝謝哪一個單位稱國常務次長 謝謝外交部 謝謝"},{"start":16.17,"end":40.882,"text":"市長你好我時間有限我就直接跟您切入我想說關於這個中國統戰的事情我就不再多說不過以我自己的專業領域來自教育界然後來自語文教育其實我們發現孔子學院這件事情我相信市長你一定非常清楚那孔子學院長年的滲透這件事情到了近年其實很多國家開始有警覺有意識孔子學院他不只擔負語言交流他其實擔負了大量的政治責任對嗎是的好"},{"start":42.763,"end":66.916,"text":"回頭來看,我們來看一下在日經亞洲的報導提到孔子學院逐漸被西方封鎖可是在東南亞持續發展不知道你們這邊有沒有關注到這個相關訊息一直持續都在關注那你們觀察到你們有什麼相關給國人的建議或參考嗎在這個孔子學院為什麼它跑到東南亞大量的發展而它對東南亞當地甚至對我們當地台商有沒有造成什麼相關的影響"},{"start":68.141,"end":90.057,"text":"跟委員報告的確像過去這段時間您所也瞭解到的在美國也好歐洲也好對於因為孔子學院他的本質他背後的目的有比較深刻的理解不管透過法律手段或其他方法來反制孔子學院來散播或傳播對於中方有利的這些他們的統戰作為"},{"start":91.718,"end":114.27,"text":"所以您剛剛所提到那為什麼會在東南亞看到有這種春風吹又生的情況那的確也是因為第一點比如說因為中國持續在這個地方當然有很多的包括經貿一帶一路很多的努力希望拉攏這些國家能夠站到他那一邊去那麼當然美方也有他的作為所以兩者之間的戰略競爭持續在全世界各地都持續進行"},{"start":115.55,"end":138.698,"text":"您剛所提到的這種後續的影響部分的確因為只要有一個地方被遏止了其實他有很多手段他可以改變名稱他可以換湯不換藥再重新用別的名義去來成立去運作所以的確就是有一種就是說打壓不盡他用各種方式加上他的資源不斷因為中國的這個統戰部他的資源一年超過3000億台幣比他們的外交部的資源還要多人手還要更足"},{"start":145.06,"end":160.152,"text":"所以回過來看,如果台灣持續在推這個新南向政策,你怎麼看我們當地的台上或是當地的學生甚至是其他各式各樣非正式的交流,我們怎麼來看這個情況?怎麼說我想要再跟次長您分享,我們看到還有另外一個日經的報導,它提到說"},{"start":161.753,"end":183.544,"text":"光是蘋果的一台iPhone其中台廠供應的零組件占iPhone材料總成本36%而且這36%的零件都是所謂最有價值的零件包含高階的核心處理器5G的數據機可是如果相關回頭來看那中國提供的技術跟中國提供零件相對是低階的所以他最後這邊報導其實就是我要跟次長您說的"},{"start":184.645,"end":202.686,"text":"他說儘管跟中國的經濟脫鉤不是容易的事情可是跟台灣脫鉤更是難上加難意思就是不可以跟台灣脫鉤一旦跟台灣脫鉤光是iPhone它就會受到多麼大的影響你剛剛說它在西方的勢力逐漸消退但是它在新的地方開始春風吹又生"},{"start":203.647,"end":203.687,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":219.551,"end":221.873,"text":"我舉一個例子AIT他們在宜蘭捐贈了一個美國資料專區的圖書區這個圖書呢當然放的不是大家不喜歡看那些公務資料公文資料也不是所謂政府出版品"},{"start":246.914,"end":246.994,"text":"﹚陳培瑜"},{"start":266.198,"end":266.218,"text":"請回應"},{"start":290.385,"end":312.832,"text":"是,謝謝委員您剛剛的提問,我們非常贊同,尤其委員剛剛所提到的不同的角度跟層面來讓我們在尤其東南亞這個第一線的外交工作有包含文化跟外交跟軟實際這個層面,其實這些工作外交部以及連同我們其他包括主管的相關的文化部會、僑委會還有任何可以出力的部會都對這個問題非常重視,而且"},{"start":314.693,"end":319.195,"text":"新南向因為我們時間有限我等一下趕快下台但是我要拜託您我們辦公室之後會跟你們持續討論如何把好看的而且有意義的值得往外推廣跟教育部跟文化部還有你們相關部會、跨部會把這些作品做更積極的外溢跟推廣甚至還有更多的活動或相關的內容產業"},{"start":335.64,"end":335.74,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3058521542eaeaa871974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f0517bbc9abd8d9385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:07:45 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11:13:57","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":372,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:13:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T11:07:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時7分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請龔主委。"],["主席：我們請龔主委，謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，今天行政院總辭，但是您即將內定接行政院秘書長，我這樣審視，交通部、經濟部、財政部就不用請了，直接請您一併回答。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，來，我們來看一下。花東三法錢坑法案，我們看到，對於環島高速鐵路建設特別條例，國發會說這個與鐵路法、財政紀律法、國發會組織法有所扞格。另外，在花東快速公路建設特別條例當中，國發會也認為基於憲政分際，不宜增加預算支出，有窒礙難行之處。主委要不要說明一下這三法？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，國家的建設，尤其是公共建設，基本上，如果有那樣的需要，我們都會來支持，那現在也有既有的機制在進行，從可行性分析到綜合規劃，當然還包括了環評用地取得，到細部設計，然後施工……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你有看我的簡報囉？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我就在說，你們國發會就是有一個中長程個案計畫的編審要點，是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以應該要有這個程序嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：按照計畫需求、可行性協調，還有看效果，這效果當中，除了注意社會效果、經濟效果，還有財政效益跟成本效益比，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還要兼顧到國家安全、經濟、社會、自然環境、性別等等，是不是這樣的意思？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問您認為目前我們看到中長程計畫的審議要素，就是剛剛所羅列的要素當中，目前我們的離島建設基金各項補助計畫，有沒有擬具完整的需求性評估、可行性研究及綜合規劃報告？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為離島基金的部分，我們都有一個中長期的四年期綜合方案，這個綜合方案我們擬訂了方向，然後會跟地方政府共同討論，地方政府會依據這個方向，擬出他們的優先順序出來，我們經過審議以後，然後來執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前有按照你所說的方式，在離島建設基金的各項補助，有這樣子去做？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未來不管是不是離島建設基金，還是其他類似的，像花東建設，也應該要準用這個方法來執行？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。本來就有一套的程序在進行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，目前離島重大建設投資計畫核定標準第五條規定，這些東西都要有行政院核定，那目前在執行當中的是否都是要由行政院來核定？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：目前的計畫是在行政院核定沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，那你們核定的這個金額要如何審議？是考量到人口數還是地域面積，還是財政狀況？包括以離島、花東或其他的為例，你們怎麼來衡量？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們第一個就是要看各地的離島實際上有這樣的需求，提出來了，我們當然會審核，剛剛你提到的成本效益等等的一些情況，甚至於能不能在一年之中或年度時間可以執行完，這是一個衡量基準。另外，各離島地區的執行能量，因為已經有好幾期，現在已經到第五期、第六期了，所以過去的經驗，我們大概也都知道每一個離島的執行能量有多少，綜合考量以後，我們就可以排優先順序，決定怎麼樣來先做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以還是要由中央有一個委員會來進行審議？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是現在比照這個花東建設特別條例，有藍委要提出一個離島建設條例的修正草案，原來是要經中央主管機關核定為重大投資計畫者，現在多加一個「縣（市）主管機關」，這些重大的建設投資計畫的核定標準本來是要由離島建設指導委員會來擬訂，還要由行政院來核定，現在可以由縣市政府另定之。你覺得這樣修正之後，如果這個法案通過，會產生什麼樣的影響？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，所以這個部分我們認為是不妥的，我剛才提到了，這個部分已經到第六期，我們大概知道說各離島發展的一些狀況，如果某一個離島自己提出一套的話，在過程當中，有可能跟其他的法令會有一些扞格，這樣的話，對於如何去處理，就會產生一些困擾。"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡言之，如果剛剛所說的法案照花東三法案的途徑通過了，照花東三法的途徑編列大筆預算，離島建設基金有哪些可以用？金門、連江、澎湖這些……那麼要怎麼審核？是不是先要就先給，先拿就先贏，是這樣嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，這個會產生很大的困擾，因為從整體中央的角度來評估各離島的建設狀況、優先順序，所以會有一個衡平的效果，如果各離島自己提，那我們沒有去排，因為每一個離島都一定說自己是最重要的，但是我們可以執行的能量，我們從過去到現在也都瞭解，就是大概這個額度。更何況在執行的過程當中，有可能還會遇到跟其他法令的一些相關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，你剛才有講過了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們中央的話，可以透過我們中央來做協調，但是地方政府執行時沒有辦法這樣做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以呢？為了支持保障離島發展及居民的權益，運用離島建設基金來推動相關的離島建設開發，事前要擬具完整需求性的評估、可行性研究和綜合規劃報告，結案前應妥善驗收。所以要求是請盤點現執行中離島建設基金各項補助計畫，是否擬具完整的需求性評估、可行性研究及綜合規劃報告，請你盤點，一個月內提出書面報告給本席，可以嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：下一位請顏寬恒委員。顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請游顥委員。游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","請麥玉珍委員。麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","請賴士葆委員。賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員。洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","請何欣純委員。何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請黃仁委員。黃仁委員、黃仁委員不在。","好，我們等召委回來，我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時14分）","繼續開會（11時23分）"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：好，非常感謝。我們繼續開會，請回座，請肅靜，謝謝。","接下來，我們謝謝蔡易餘委員，請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":3.0178437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.75409375,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.49971875,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.37721875,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.254093750000003,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.80659375,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.172843750000006,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.38346875,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":45.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.049093750000004,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.563468750000006,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.945968750000006,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.89846875,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.10096875,"end":65.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.02909375,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.51409375,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.57471875,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.90284375,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.05471875,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.08846875,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.33409375000001,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.55721875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.41784375,"end":122.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.56034375,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.70909375000002,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.16471875000002,"end":143.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.02471875,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.15034375000002,"end":156.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.63096875000002,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.76596875,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.03596875000002,"end":158.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":163.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.44846875000002,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.80659375000002,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.00471875000002,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.24471875,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.57346875000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":173.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.80971875,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.35784375,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.15471875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.48284375,"end":223.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.26284375,"end":190.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.44346875000002,"end":244.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.61596875,"end":226.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.81409375,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.15721875000003,"end":249.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":253.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.57784375000003,"end":255.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.41284375000004,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.63784375,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.02909375,"end":287.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.03659375,"end":294.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.15784375000004,"end":295.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.08596875,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.35159375,"end":297.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.33034375,"end":298.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.95471875000004,"end":302.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.02596875,"end":306.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.73409375,"end":315.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.72846875000005,"end":327.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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﹚審查﹚"},{"start":279.565,"end":294.145,"text":"那這樣的話如何去處理就會產生一些困擾。」簡言之是不是說如果這個前面剛剛所在的法案如果照花東山法案的途徑他通過了照花東山法的途徑編列大筆預算離島建設基金有哪些可以用?"},{"start":295.222,"end":303.31,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案件第十三條條文修正草案 案件第十三條條文修正草案 案件第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":315.822,"end":344.222,"text":"案 各離島他自己提的話那我們沒有去排因為每一個離島都一定說他是最重要但是我們可以執行的能量我們大概從過去到現在也都了解就是大概這個額度好所以呢我的主戰號那更何況在這個執行的過程當中有可能還會遇到跟其他法令的一些相關我們中央的話可以透過我們中央來做協調但是地方政府他執行他沒有辦法這樣做好所以呢為了支持保障離島發展"},{"start":344.983,"end":369.411,"text":"及居民的權益,那運用離島建設基金來推動相關的離島建設開發,那事情要領據完成的需求性的評估可行於研究,按照規劃報告,結案前應妥慎驗收。」所以請盤點,要求現執行中離島建設基金各項補助計畫是否領據完成的需求性評估可行於研究,其中規劃報告。請你盤點,一個月內提出書面報告給本席,可以嗎?可以。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30ac1599ec1f250a023ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f6c539369133b2ff25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:59:04 - 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因為現在看這樣的2023年的目標2023年目標 距離還是蠻大的所以未來會 你們預估會快速成長 是不是這樣的是 跟我們報告對於這個就是2030年達到11700這一個 有沒有信心啊我們有信心 審慎樂觀"},{"start":323.397,"end":347.84,"text":"那今年大概就是這個縫隙大概1300輛的部分其實大概公總到現在已經合定將近1200萬的1200輛的一個這個數量了那後面我跟委員報告大概就是說去年跟今年之間其實是有部分業者在做這一個觀望啦"},{"start":348.14,"end":348.841,"text":"公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形"},{"start":372.633,"end":394.905,"text":"陸綫不斷說陸綫不斷的說不斷說很多惡性循環正在發生司機找不到不斷惡性循環所以事實上我們聽到了部分的業者反映到我們這邊那我們在電車這個部分我們看到高雄客運台中客運桃園交通局他們有很多一些問題包括在早期的"},{"start":395.902,"end":421.094,"text":"第一期第二代的一個車輛事實上它的這個電池衰退的時間比預期的快很多那當然最後一個就是充電站充電站有一些問題我覺得你這個充電的一個場域現在在過去市區公車來講他們為了發車方便在市區通常是比較精華區他都有他的停車場"},{"start":422.034,"end":422.695,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":441.736,"end":442.056,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":464.94,"end":467.403,"text":"市長 他們現在電車 如果他們的場域很遠 這個會遇到這樣的一個問題 你們有沒有聽到他們的一個反應"},{"start":479.957,"end":507.757,"text":"市長跟委員報告在一開始的時候推的時候是有這樣的尤其像當時在臺北市有幾個地方有這個問題但是剛才我已經說明過了有關充電的臺電的電量的這樣的一個補充的系統其實我們第一個有要求公路局跟臺電要有一個對應的窗口那另外也要求地方政府要協助幫業者去找相關的一個地那其實也有這樣的一個"},{"start":508.117,"end":522.173,"text":"你剛剛講的後面這個,這是重點啦,這真的啦,真的你們不幫忙他,包括有一重化區如果長期沒有用的,你們真的不幫忙這些業者,他真的是活不下去啦,你好歹一個位置要停,最後啦,不耽誤時間啦,"},{"start":523.334,"end":544.995,"text":"台電充電站要現在設立我們現在每次見到台電的成型還真的越來越多就是它一個規劃設計就耗費可能半年一年那有一些地方他們要設這個充電站這個時間會拖得很久我要拜託你交通部在這個領域要跟我們經濟部他們來做一個協調"},{"start":546.076,"end":554.113,"text":"不要都丟給業者單獨在求單獨來拜託民意代表這個部分我要拜託你好不好這樣才能加速推動"}]}},{"id":"152624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc302aafb3ab6525394a3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f4fa46b23f99a9e655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:48:41 - 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尤其台中市有很多偏鄉也用得上 偏鄉的中巴 中巴到目前為止是沒有的 是 所以我們要把它解決中巴到目前為止是沒有的 我到現在我還沒有講到這一點 你自己講出來喔所以所有行駛偏鄉的 尤其偏鄉很多是老人家長者或是行動不便的 他們的對外的交通的工具的選擇性又更少了喔 是 我跟委員報告這樣的一個車型原則上我們會在年底"},{"start":396.468,"end":418.316,"text":"中巴會把它推出來那另外一個委員剛才特別提到的有關這個復康巴士部署就是談到這個通用的這個計程車我現在跟你講通用是等一下跟你講因為什麼不是只有這個大巴、中巴還有復康巴士那呢我在跟你講不是只有我在呼籲消基會也曾經在去年開過記者會"},{"start":420.077,"end":434.364,"text":"消機會也為消費者注意到這個問題身障不便的人常常困在家中是因為他走不出去所以呢我們希望政府可以更進一步的來讓我剛剛講的集門性的交通服務能夠量能夠擴大嘛"},{"start":439.406,"end":465.923,"text":"所以我們行政院現在通勤月票的這個政策包括補助讓國人滿意度是最高而且獲得很大的支持度可是這個是對一般那很多的身障不變的人或者是行動不變的引髮族他事實上對於這個交通補助我們的這個通勤月票也好或者是這樣子的交通補助也好以目前來講他的感受還很小因為很少"},{"start":468.951,"end":470.672,"text":"市長你同意嗎對不對沒有錯因為現在是相關的公車上的這個無障礙的設施對嘛我們的推動不夠給力嘛也不夠到位嘛那所以你剛剛講到通用計程車我要講你們雖然現在有這個所謂的事辦計畫啦愛接送啦通用計程車但是事辦到現在4年喔服務只有在六都"},{"start":496.923,"end":518.137,"text":"而且整體的服務車輛不到500台以全台灣的計程車總數9萬多台有裝設這個升降設備的是通用計程車有1200多台那我跟你講比例才0.1%那參加在你這個事辦計畫的愛接送平台的登記的車輛數更是只有405台"},{"start":519.818,"end":520.178,"text":"市長你覺得勒?"},{"start":544.139,"end":564.266,"text":"分開很快來跟委員報告確實這樣的一個提供的服務太少了所以我也跟委員報告因為我們現在也正在嘗試研發有關這個電動的通用計程車所以耳後的這個計程車我們要全部把它台灣的通用意思就是說那個計程車來的時候它就具有通用可以讓輪椅上下"},{"start":565.546,"end":574.051,"text":"同用的計程車的成本是遠高於一般的計程車所以我剛有特別講到我們到屆時我們會有相關的一個汰換補助計畫另外一個是就現行的愛接送的一個服務我們也會有相關的一個改進的做法"},{"start":583.416,"end":583.616,"text":"何欣純委員"}]}},{"id":"152623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc306bd6851ced9405cefe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0fec0cca0d9de94f6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:57:38 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defenders。"],["洪委員申翰：這一個跨境鎮壓的議題，這一段時間其實很多國際人權組織其實也發布了很多的報告，比方說，依照西班牙的人權組織在談的中國海外秘密警察的非法境外鎮壓，目前中國在全球53個國家裡面設立了102個，他們叫做警僑事務服務站，大部分是在歐洲的地區，一開始他們可能打著協助僑胞就近換發證件、辦理出入境服務的名義，所以說這是他們海外的110，海外的警察局，副委員長，你認為這些警僑服務站，尤其是中國在海外設的特定警僑服務站，目前對我們的僑務工作有沒有影響？"],["呂副委員長元榮：在這個階段看起來，是以中國大陸的移民為主，以中國移民為主的時候，當然對我們來講，一定會產生一種外溢的效果。當然在所謂的天網、獵狐等等各種行動代號，他們說是為了反貪腐，追潛逃國外的人，其實這些是表面上的一個理由。"],["洪委員申翰：副委員長，你也說了，它會有外溢的影響，所以看起來是會有影響。"],["呂副委員長元榮：會有影響。"],["洪委員申翰：那我們對這個影響，我們的態度跟做法是什麼？"],["呂副委員長元榮：是，我們在這方面的因應，我們希望能夠有相關的資訊，因為這是屬於當地國主權的行為，所以一定要跟當地國的有關單位分享，比如說，美國聯邦調查局就正式去逮捕了警察祕密服務站。"],["洪委員申翰：那我們做了什麼嗎？他們的這些作法，是影響了當地國的主權，可是也影響到我們的僑民，他們要控制中國的僑民，可是剛剛也說了，中國的僑民也會影響到我們的僑民，這是我第一個問題，那這個做法，你剛剛也說會有外溢的影響，那我們的因應是什麼？我們的做法是什麼？"],["呂副委員長元榮：第一個，我們當然是要有幾個策略，我跟委員報告，我剛剛特別提到說，我們要去弘揚自由民主的價值，來跟我們僑界結合。"],["洪委員申翰：這不是弘揚自由民主價值可以處理的事情啊。"],["呂副委員長元榮：沒有，就是要去凸顯說……"],["洪委員申翰：我們有沒有僑民有受到這種海外的秘密警察或他們的警僑服務站的影響甚至監控？有沒有？"],["呂副委員長元榮：我從媒體上的報導看出來，它並不是公開的活動，它會用恐嚇的方式。"],["洪委員申翰：對啊，我們的僑民被恐嚇，那我們做了什麼嘛？"],["呂副委員長元榮：比如說他就說我不發簽證給你，或者是對你的親人……"],["洪委員申翰：副委員長，我都知道這些現象，但我問你，僑委會做了什麼嘛？"],["呂副委員長元榮：跟委員報告，這個方面，第一個，我們當然……"],["洪委員申翰：副委員長，我不是要請你來這邊做學術發表，我是要問你，這些是你的業務範圍，那你們做了什麼因應？"],["呂副委員長元榮：我們有促請海外要提高警覺，這是第一個，然後要藉由這個……"],["洪委員申翰：還有沒有別的？"],["呂副委員長元榮：比如說，法國巴黎發生了這個事情，我們網站被駭了，或是校長手機被這些不明人士入侵了，所以我們就通報當地的治安機關，這在外國是主權行為，不是我們可以……"],["洪委員申翰：副委員長，你這樣講，我會覺得好像沒有作為，不報警，不然要怎樣？難道不報警嗎？當然要報警，這不是最基本的嗎？如果只報警，那我聽不出來你們給了什麼協助。我剛剛花了這麼多時間，我真的沒有聽到僑委會針對這樣的全球正在關注的現象，給了什麼協助。我們有沒有給這些可能受到恐嚇，或受到監控，或受到騷擾的僑民，可以明確地讓他們知道我們可以提供什麼法律服務？我們有沒有跟當地的政府建立一個訊息互通、資訊共享的管道，大家互相提醒？有沒有把這個機制建立起來？我不知道有沒有。"],["呂副委員長元榮：我們這些管道都很暢通的。"],["洪委員申翰：我不是問你這個，我現在問你的是我們提供了什麼協助嘛。針對這一個現象，當大家都在關注這個議題的時候，甚至我還沒有講這個號稱是警僑服務站，但是在更多的時候是秘密警察。"],["呂副委員長元榮：甚至是間諜。"],["洪委員申翰：對。那我們做了什麼嘛。我們明明知道中國的僑民，也會影響到我們的僑民，影響會外溢的，你剛剛也說了，可是為什麼我聽不到具體應對的做法？"],["呂副委員長元榮：具體應對做法，第一，我們就是會適時提醒海外僑民……"],["洪委員申翰：宣揚自由民主的理念對處理這件事情有什麼幫助，我真的有點聽不懂。宣揚自由民主的理念當然是必要的，這也是我們核心價值所在，但我不覺得做這件事情就可以處理現在我們的僑民在外面可能會遇到的威脅跟影響啊。"],["呂副委員長元榮：是。我跟委員報告，其實我們剛剛報告裡有提到，我們的第二個策略就是說要連結主流社會，包含說在媒體方面……"],["洪委員申翰：連結哪一個主流社會？是當地的主流社會，還是臺灣的主流社會？那你用什麼方法去連結？"],["呂副委員長元榮：當地的主流社會。"],["洪委員申翰：那你怎麼連結？"],["呂副委員長元榮：當地主流社會指的是說當地人士，而不是說僑民社會。"],["洪委員申翰：那你怎麼去連結？我現在問你怎麼連結嘛。"],["呂副委員長元榮：連結主流社會有很多的管道，很多的僑民本身就是在主流社會裡面，所以我們會通過相當的通路，藉由這些通路，跟他們做連結。"],["洪委員申翰：副委員長，我很仔細地聽你們應對的方法跟內容，但是坦白說，我沒有聽到具體的做法，我自己是認為你們要不要在僑委會就正式地起一個專案，來面對接下來中國的境外鎮壓或海外鎮壓，不管現在有什麼現象，也包括我們該提供給我們的僑民什麼樣的協助，我們要跟當地的政府建立起什麼樣的互助的機制，全部都列得清清楚楚，讓我們的僑民如果在海外遇到這個狀況的話，至少知道我們的僑委會、我們的政府怎麼協助他，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["呂副委員長元榮：好的，我們帶回來做進一步的研究。"],["洪委員申翰：你剛剛講的內容，坦白說，我覺得太空泛了。"],["主席：好，謝謝。時間的關係……"],["洪委員申翰：好不好？這可以嗎？"],["呂副委員長元榮：是的。我們會帶回來研究。"],["洪委員申翰：多久時間可以把這個機制建立起來？兩個月可不可以？"],["呂副委員長元榮：三個月好不好？"],["洪委員申翰：三個月是不是？"],["呂副委員長元榮：我請我們的駐外單位……"],["洪委員申翰：我給你三個月，三個月內請提供報告到外交及國防委員會。好不好？謝謝。"],["呂副委員長元榮：是。"],["主席：謝謝。好，接下來請陳培瑜委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.15721875,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.062843750000003,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.20534375,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.043468750000002,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.20659375,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.290968750000005,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.822218750000005,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.85534375,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.86346875,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.65159375,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.329718750000005,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.06721875000001,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.05846875,"end":71.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.91846875,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":75.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.66471875,"end":75.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.68159375,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.49909375,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.94721875,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.02284375,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.22534375000001,"end":106.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.51596875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.04721875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.60284375,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000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有沒有我從媒體上的報導看出來他並不是公開的活動他會用恐嚇的方式那對啊 那我們的僑民被恐嚇 那我們做了什麼嘛比如說他就說我不發簽證給你或是他在做我的親人等等我都知道這些現象"},{"start":361.448,"end":378.04,"text":"但我問你僑委會做了什麼嗎對我就說跟委員報告我們這個方面呢第一個我們當然是就如同說副院長我不是要請你來這邊做學術發表啊我是要問你這些是你的業務範圍那你們做了什麼因應"},{"start":379.284,"end":403.803,"text":"我們有促請海外要提高警覺這是第一個然後要藉由這個還有沒有別的像比如說法國巴黎發生了這個事情那我們網站被駭了或是校長手機被不明的人士所入侵了我們就通報當地的治安機關這在外國是主權行為不是我們第三國可以這樣講這樣我會覺得好像沒有作為"},{"start":408.246,"end":418.872,"text":"不報警不然要怎樣?難道不報警嗎?當然報警,這不是只是最基本的嗎?如果只報警,那我聽不出來給了什麼協助啊?"},{"start":422.625,"end":447.186,"text":"我們剛剛花了這麼多時間我真的沒有聽到僑民針對這樣子全球正在關注的現象給了什麼協助啊我們有沒有給這些可能受到恐嚇或受到監控或者是受到騷擾的僑民可以有明確的讓他知道我們可以提供你什麼法律服務我們有沒有跟當地的政府建立一個訊息互通資訊共享的管道大家互相提醒有沒有把這機制建立起來"},{"start":454.803,"end":466.07,"text":"我們提供了什麼協助嗎?針對這個現象當大家都在關注這個議題的時候甚至我還沒有講他是警察服務站更多時候是秘密警察甚至是間諜"},{"start":467.984,"end":496.79,"text":"那我們做了什麼嘛我們明明知道中國的僑民也會影響到我們的僑民影響會外溢的你剛才也說了可是為什麼我聽不到具體應對的做法具體應對做法第一我們就是會事實提醒海外的僑民宣揚自由民主的理念宣揚自由民主的理念對處理這個事情有什麼幫助我真的有點聽不出來這當然宣揚自由民主的理念是必要的這也是我們核心價值所在但我不覺得做這件事情就可以處理"},{"start":498.383,"end":517.741,"text":"現在我們在外面可能會遇到威脅跟影響啊我跟委員報告齁其實我們剛剛報告裡有提到說我們的第二個策略就是說要連結主流社會啦包含說在媒體方面連結哪一個主流社會是當地的主流社會還是台灣的主流社會那你用什麼方法去連結"},{"start":519.182,"end":540.029,"text":"當地的主流社會指的是說當地人士而不是說僑民社會如果連結主流社會有很多的管道很多的僑民他本身就是在主流社會裡面所以我們通過相當的通路藉由這些通路跟他們做連結"},{"start":543.75,"end":560.753,"text":"我這邊 我大概聽了講我很仔細的聽你們應對的方法跟內容了但坦白說我沒有聽到具體的做法啦我自己是認為你們要不要在喬爾會就正式的起一個專案來去面對接下來中國在境外鎮壓或海外鎮壓"},{"start":561.614,"end":582.063,"text":"相對於不管是他現在有什麼現象也包括我們該提供給我們僑民什麼樣的協助我們要跟當地的政府建立起什麼樣子互助的機制全部都列得清清楚楚讓我們的僑民如果在海外遇到這個狀況的話他至少知道我們的僑委會我們的政府怎麼協助他這應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":583.484,"end":584.704,"text":"請提供報告到外交國防委員會"}]}},{"id":"152622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30507b29011d0e5cde974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f899580823f825d3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:57:27 - 11:07:23","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":596,"end_time":"2024-05-16T11:07:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:57:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時57分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請國發會高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們來討論排碳量的問題。從今年開始，排碳量超過2.5萬公噸的事業體，都會被納為第一批納管徵收碳費的對象，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。以2024年的排放量為依據，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預計要在2025年繳交第一筆碳費。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前我們也了解，好像似乎還要再延一年，會不會？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就環境部來說，應該還是會按照既定的時程。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，還是在2025年要繳交第一筆碳費，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，就我了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們要去釐清楚。目前我們也知道碳費費率一直延宕，讓所有企業界一直到最基層的民眾、一般的民眾都很緊張，不只是有心要減碳的企業無所適從，而且會衝擊到我們的民生經濟，會加速通膨。","我們也了解目前碳定價相關的三個子法，包括「碳費收費辦法」、「自主減量計畫管理辦法」以及「碳費徵收對象溫室氣體減量指定目標」的法律程序都要完成，目前正在準備要預告。但是我們看到預告後就會召開第三次審查會，但實際上討論到碳費的部分可能要到第四次會議。所以本席要請教副主委，碳費徵收攸關我們的產業跟民生，到目前為止，碳費費率還沒有辦法訂出來，是什麼原因？今年年底是不是可以訂出來？請作說明。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上因為碳費的徵收真的是影響深遠，第一個會影響到產業的競爭力，然後也會影響到消費者的負擔。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：瞭解。所以請教你，年底會不會訂出來？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：按照既定的時程，其實今年就一定要訂出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那今年年底會不會？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：按照時程的話，應該要訂出來，至於會不會，我還是尊重，因為碳費委員會的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請暫停發言。來，主席，因為我們的龔主委到了，我要請龔主委來回答。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們約定好今天11點你會到，你慢了7秒鐘，所以我就直接請你上台，非常感謝。剛剛講到了碳費率的問題，預計會在第4次會議討論，產業界很緊張，一般民眾很緊張，因為2.5萬公噸的事業體就要排入第一批，目前為止，是不是維持原來的決定，在2025年要繳交第一筆的碳費？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們的態度還是希望……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還是維持在2025年？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：就是說，環境部還是要跟企業界有比較好的溝通，大家要形成共識……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的預計是2025年，是不是還是會在2025年？因為有人說要延後一年，會不會？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：當然我們是希望今年可以大家有個共識談妥。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：訂出來嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，談妥。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們的預計方向還是今年年底要訂出碳費率，是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，談妥以後，至於是從今年開始起算還是明年開始起算，那又可能是另外一個討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你先跟我討論目前的問題，今年年底會將碳費率訂出來？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，這個是原來的規劃。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：原來規劃朝這個方向嘛，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為再過幾天你就不是主任委員了，你是秘書長，更有力道可以handle全場，所以我們聽到你的回答，從你當主任委員到未來當秘書長，你也是以這個方向嗎？是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我們期待的就是今年可以談妥這樣的事情，可是起徵的時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，本席之所以提出這樣子的議題，是因為產業界滿緊張的，我們希望讓產業界能夠安心，好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好好去談判，好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。接下來本席要請教您，也就是打詐國家隊越打越詐，越打讓民眾越傷腦筋，在這樣的一個情況之下，「臺灣是詐騙天堂」這樣子的污名本席不願意聽到，所以在5月9日你們公布了打詐新四法，要將幣商納入管制，而且要提供虛擬資產，第三方支付服務的事業或人員必須完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或者是登錄，違規者要處兩年以下的有期徒刑，併科罰金500萬元以下，在國外的幣商也要在應於國內落地的時候在國內落地，這是我們在5月9日公布的法規，會公布這些法規，也就是因為看到社會面向，詐騙事件頻繁，人民很恐慌，不知所措，而且詐騙的案件越來越多，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：受詐騙而損失的金額也越來越多，是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那該怎麼辦？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：您剛才提到為什麼5月9日我們在行政院院會通過打詐四法，也儘快送到大院來，如果大院可以比較快審核，我們就可以依照新的法律來做，因為新的法律有新的授權，我們就有比較好的手段。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，目前我們看到這個問題的嚴重性，同時我們也積極行動，希望改變制度跟方法，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這樣的情況之下，本席也勉勵你，因為打詐國家隊包含了內政部、法務部、金管會、NCC。國發會，你們是居中聯合最主要的角色。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：還有數位發展部。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是，我願意說，再幾天之後，你是秘書長，在這一個橫向的組織，你更有能力，所以一定要加強，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要加強，保障人民的安全。","接下來本席要請問電的問題，我們的能源政策，新的經濟部長郭部長說，他上任之後，會針對臺灣用電的需求量，做一個整體性的檢討，呈現給國人，這是第一項。第二個，本席再請問，非核家園的政策會不會改變？他告訴我們說，因為核電的問題是需要多數人民的同意而執行之，本席要請教主委，郭準部長所說的這一句話，是不是表示我們的非核家園政策會有所轉彎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：從行政部門的角度來講，我們是依法行政，所以現在假如法律統統沒有改，在這樣的情況之下，我們只能按法律……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：假定人民有需求，我們也可以改法律啊。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果法律改的話，我們當然是尊重……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認不認同環境基準法第二十三條，依照目前臺灣所需要的電量，針對核的部分必須要做檢討？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，所以這個就是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：需不需要？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果因為多數人民的共識產生法律的改變，我們就依照法律來執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你也是朝這個方向嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：還是依法行政。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以整個能源政策都是必須要討論的，是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：當然可以討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然可以討論。因為你們所說的綠能，到目前為止沒有辦法達成原定的目標20%。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：會落後一、兩年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在還是個位數嘛。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：會落後一、兩年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你委婉地說會落後，我也接受你的說法，但是人民、產業、民眾迫切需要這些電，所以到目前為止，我們看到2025年，光是台積電的耗電量就會占全體能源的12.5%，而且他們生產速度加快又加大，用電比例也會超前，也會更多，在這樣的一個情況之下，我仍舊要請教未來的秘書長，也就是現任的國發會主委，全球對核能發電的觀點都有在改變，對不對？目前為止，都有在調整。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有一直在討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一直在討論，所以我們是不是要積極檢視非核家園的政策？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，報告委員，討論都OK，但是行政部門還是依法行政，我們還是要做到最好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您剛剛有講到一點，也就是說，如果全國的人民多數同意，是不是非核家園的政策會去做調整？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：要修改了法律才可以執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，那你同意如此嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果法律修改了，我們當然是依法行政。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那我們也期待讓臺灣的電能夠安全，而且能夠穩定，好嗎？謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：主席，廢核、反核是民進黨的神主牌，破壞人家的神主牌，對我們不利啊，他們要就自己簽，好不好？"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：好，謝謝陳超明委員。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.80284375,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.348468750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.36534375,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.622218750000002,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.446593750000005,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.44159375,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.18659375,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.257843750000006,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.10096875,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.24784375,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.92284375,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.06596875000001,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.21034375000002,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":158.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.91784375,"end":157.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.09471875,"end":162.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.99284375000002,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.57846875,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.69596875000002,"end":173.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.44159375,"end":181.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.48784375000002,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.90971875000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.48346875000001,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.53409375,"end":182.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.55096875,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.09909375,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.19596875000002,"end":190.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.44409375,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.86909375000002,"end":199.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.34971875000002,"end":213.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.06659375,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.56284375,"end":217.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.83659375000002,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.85346875000002,"end":218.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":218.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.45659375000002,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.83596875,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.26596875,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.20159375,"end":231.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.48846875,"end":237.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.97721875000002,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.34409375,"end":243.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.21659375000002,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.47284375,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.48971875,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.97034375,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.15534375000004,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.48846875000004,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.88909375000003,"end":260.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.01909375,"end":265.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.64596875,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.12221875,"end":302.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.40034375,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.58971875000003,"end":286.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.54284375000003,"end":291.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.39471875000004,"end":291.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.39284375,"end":307.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.35846875000004,"end":353.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.54534375000003,"end":354.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.00096875,"end":357.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.51096875,"end":357.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.81471875,"end":357.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.88221875000005,"end":359.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.16471875,"end":369.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.88034375,"end":377.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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主委碳費徵收攸關了我們的產業跟民生那到目前為止我們的碳費率還沒有辦法定出來是什麼原因那今年年底是不是可以定出來請做說明好"},{"start":140.919,"end":145.104,"text":"基本上因為碳費的遵說真的是影響深遠,第一會影響到產業的競爭力,然後也會影響到消費者的負擔。按照既定的時程其實今年就一定要訂出來。"},{"start":159.502,"end":169.29,"text":"案 會不會按照時程的話應該要定出來?至於會不會我還是尊重因為因為碳費差小林委員會的"},{"start":185.185,"end":213.245,"text":"公主委,我們約定今天11點你會到,你慢了7秒鐘。所以呢我就直接請你上台,非常感謝。那剛才講到了碳費率的問題,我們預計會在第四次會議,產業界很緊張,一般民眾就緊張,因為2.5萬公噸的試月體那就要排入到第一。那目前為止是不是我們維持原來的2025年要繳交第一筆的碳費?"},{"start":214.842,"end":230.217,"text":"法委員我們的態度還是希望就是說還是維持到2025年就是說這個環境部還是要跟企業界有比較好的你的預計是2025年是不是還是會2025年因為有人說要延後一年會不會"},{"start":231.769,"end":256.582,"text":"當然我們是希望就是說今年齁,今年可以大家有個共識談妥。所以你們的預計方向還是今年度,今年年底要訂出碳費率,是不是?對,談妥以後至於就是說從今年開始起算還是明年開始起算,那又可能是另外一個討論啦。你先跟我討論目前的問題。就是今年年底會將碳費率訂出來?"},{"start":257.602,"end":257.882,"text":"對,這個是原來的規劃。"},{"start":276.667,"end":278.028,"text":"案﹖離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹖離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":303.502,"end":325.453,"text":"案、詐騙天堂、這樣子的污名本席不願意聽到。所以在5月9號的時候你們公佈了打詐新釋法,要將畢商納入管制,而且要提供虛擬資產。第三方支付服務的事業或人員必須完成洗錢防治、服務能量登記或登錄。違規者要"},{"start":328.254,"end":352.397,"text":"出兩年以下的有期徒刑並可罰金五百萬以下在國外的避傷也要在國內落地的時候也要在國內落地這是我們在5月9號的一個公佈當然會這樣子公佈也就是看到社會面向詐騙事件頻繁人民很恐慌不知所措而且詐騙的案件越來越多 對不對"},{"start":354.279,"end":356.642,"text":"案、罪行金額負擔越來越多。」"},{"start":369.909,"end":370.71,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":386.787,"end":387.888,"text":"案：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":414.778,"end":438.084,"text":"我們的這個能源政策新的準這個經濟部長郭部長他說他上任之後會將電台灣的需求量會做一個整體性的一個檢討呈現給國人這是第一項第二個本期再請問非核家園的政策會不會改變"},{"start":439.485,"end":458.22,"text":"他告訴我們說因為核電的問題是需要多數人民的同意而執行之本下請教主委郭准部長所說的這一句話是不是我們的非核家園會有所轉彎請教"},{"start":460.897,"end":480.57,"text":"法務委員,就是說從行政部門的角度來講,我們是依法行政。所以說,因為現在假如法律通通沒有改的情況之下,我們只能按照...假如人民需由,你們行政部門我們也可以改法律啊!如果法律改的話,我們當然是...你認不認同《環境基準法》的第23條針對核的部分必須要做檢討?"},{"start":482.222,"end":490.269,"text":"按照目前台灣所需要的電量。需不需要?所以你也是朝這個方向嗎?所以整個能源政策都是必須是要討論的,是嗎?當然可以討論,因為到目前為止你們所說的綠能到目前為止是沒有辦法達成的。"},{"start":507.984,"end":508.324,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":531.906,"end":550.773,"text":"而且他們的速度加大他們的速度加快又加大用電比率也會超前也會更多在這樣的一個情況之下我仍舊要請教未來的秘書長現任的國發會主委全球對核能發電的觀點都有在改變 對不對"},{"start":553.018,"end":579.719,"text":"目前為止都有在調整。」一直在討論。一直在討論。所以我們是不是積極要檢視非核家園的政策?對,巴爾委員就是說討論都OK啦,但是行政部門還是依法行政。您剛才有講到一點,也就是說如果全國的人民多數同意,那是不是非核家園的政策會去做調整?"},{"start":580.279,"end":580.299,"text":"案﹚"}]}},{"id":"152621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30b7e1833fa7c8087fbe5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0fcbc4003ec59502775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"10:48:07 - 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Tahovecahe委員：次長好。有一個必須要公義轉型的問題，就是原保地貸款，我在財政委員會也關心很多次，我再重述一次，跟一般的土地相比，銀行作為擔保品的意願是高的，計價貸款方式是用市場鑑價。可是輪到原住民的保留地，因為它有受限，所以民營的銀行作為擔保品的意願不要說低，是被拒絕的，它的計算方式如果真的要做的話，也是採公告現值。所以我在3月4日有問過金管會，3月7日也問過財政部，甚至4月10日辦公室也邀請了相關機關，召開原保地鑑價機制及銀行放貸方案的研商會議。","我今天在這裡其實是要表達感謝，因為現在是5月中，但是我已經陸陸續續拿到各個相關部會的回應，像是金管會就回復已經發函督促銀行要落實公平對待的原則，落實普惠金融政策，並且也修正金融評鑑的規定，如果銀行願意承作原保地貸款會給予加分。再來，除了原民會要針對原保地的鑑價調查，內政部實價登錄如果能夠增加原保地的交易資訊，就可以提供給銀行作為估價的參考。另外，原民會和農業信保基金合作可以做原保地的信保，提高銀行的意願。財政部也有回函，特別提到如果原民會提出了原保地的政策貸款，公股行庫就會願意配合評估辦理，針對原保地的鑑價系統，財政部也已經發函給原民會建議和內政部協處，建構一個鑑價系統。請問，你們有開過這個會嗎？"],["阮次長清華：到目前還沒有，但是就行庫來講，當然很注重債權的擔保，我覺得剛才講的金管會那幾個意見都很好，我覺得很關鍵的一點就是最後一點，農保的機制一定要落實，那很重要，因為原保地最主要就是缺乏流動性。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：信保的部分嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對，信保那部分如果可以介入的話，就會降低行庫的貸款風險，所以那部分很重要，現在就看農保那邊能不能配合。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：鑑價系統也很重要。"],["阮次長清華：當然。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為大家都在等這個鑑價系統出來，才有辦法開始進行貸款作業，所以這個部分你們有跟其他單位像原民會開過會嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我這邊還沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望近期之內開個會，好不好？因為我們越開會，會讓事情的進度越快、越有可能實現，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：是，不管是我們主政，或者內政部主政，或者金管會主政，我們都願意來參與。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。剛才你有提到農業金庫信保的部分，其實它也有回函，它說請原民會在原民貸款計畫中訂定相關的規範，建議成立原住民信用保證機構，提高金融機構的承作意願，農業金庫也積極配合辦理原住民的貸款計畫，它們是願意來設單一窗口承作原保地的貸款業務。內政部其實也有回函，因為它們有一個不動產估價系統，它們有開始進行這個工作，原保地作為擔保品申貸和鑑價涉及到資金的用途、債權的確保，所以它說是財政部、金管會的權責，會依主管機關的規劃期程，協助估價師公會配合來研擬準則。所以我還是要再問一次次長，財政部的角色到底是什麼？是不是應該常常找它們來開會？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我覺得內政部還是很重要，因為實價的登錄其實是在內政部那邊。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：上次內政部次長在質詢臺上說會積極配合辦理。"],["阮次長清華：對，我覺得內政部要先把系統建立起來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是它們總是希望要有人主導開會啊！"],["阮次長清華：我們跟相關機關來協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席在這裡要求，財政部可不可以跟金管會找原民會、內政部、農業部，儘速建立原住民保留地貸款鑑價機制，這樣可以嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們先來跟相關部會溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後一哩路了。"],["阮次長清華：因為重要的是解決問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：分頭進行的工作我們都已經幫忙要求了，你現在就是把粽子拉起來，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：是，到底是不是我們來出面，這是需要考慮的，因為我們是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們有機會是不是來開個公聽會？"],["阮次長清華：例如原民會來主導，也是一個很好的方式。為什麼這樣說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原民會都已經在笑了，不要一言蔽之也是原民會。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告為什麼財政部出面不太好的原因，因為我們是公股行庫的股權管理機關。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我來開公聽會好了，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：等於會有選手兼裁判的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，了解，謝謝次長。另外，去年部長就任的時候表示財劃法修正已規劃五大原則，我在3月7日質詢財政部的時候很關心，因為這是很多人的陳情，直轄市的原民區對它們的財政劃分，合併又回到公法人之後，其實它們的財政劃分有點亂，這個部分需要導正。我很關心這個部分，所以想要了解財劃法院版法案什麼時候會提出來？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得財劃法要考慮的因素很多，第一個是中央的財源夠不夠。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：什麼時候提？"],["阮次長清華：要看政策。第二個就是看地方的財源夠不夠。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我可能會連同剛才的部分，一起在公聽會討論，可以嗎？即便法案還沒提出來，但是我想知道你們對直轄市原民區的財務分配，我想知道你們有什麼規劃方向。"],["阮次長清華：我簡單說幾句話就好，目前直轄市改制之後，直轄市裡面原來的原民鄉鎮市已經改為區，其實區的人口、面積都已經在母法規範了，等於是它所有的東西都歸到直轄市，直轄市再跟原民區協商，基本上的作法是這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們就先規劃，我可能會開個公聽會。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：再一個小問題，大家最近都在吵青安貸，我想跟你確認一下，因為我要回復人家，我們看到購屋者的樣本數占比，你們有沒有去確認一下，這個是個人還是家庭的年收入？"],["阮次長清華：委員的意思是說要評估的時候……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不是，資料來源是聯徵中心，大家都在說這些100萬元以下的人占整體61.6%，他們說5年後、10年後這些人的房子就會被拍賣，因為付不起房貸啊！"],["阮次長清華：這個還要看個案的情況。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我有問聯徵中心，這是個人的收入，所以財政部是不是應該要澄清、說明？因為他去貸款的時候，你們一定有他整個家庭的收入資料，你們應該要就家庭收入跟房貸餘額做出交叉分析，可以嗎？不然聯徵中心出來這個東西，大家都預期5年後會出現拍賣的斷頭潮。"],["阮次長清華：是，這個我們來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們要因應，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接著請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接著請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.555968750000002,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.85471875,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.83346875,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.26784375,"end":25.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.42784375,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.76909375,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.089718750000003,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.90784375,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.05096875,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.61596875,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.56034375,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.275343750000005,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.95721875000001,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.39721875000001,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.39284375000001,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.87096875,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.67034375,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.27784375000002,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.48409375,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.82971875,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.64784375000002,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.25034375,"end":189.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.40221875,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.43534375000002,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.40534375000001,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.93659375000001,"end":199.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.99971875,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.21909375,"end":213.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.24346875,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.12409375000001,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.39784375000002,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.03846875000002,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.14346875,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":232.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.63096875000002,"end":243.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.52909375000002,"end":242.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.01409375000003,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.92534375000002,"end":247.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.99659375000002,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.32971875,"end":254.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.08034375000003,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.64534375000002,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.34909375,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.83784375,"end":291.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.14159375,"end":291.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.34221875000003,"end":338.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.00784375,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.12096875000003,"end":346.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.40784375000004,"end":342.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.58034375,"end":349.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.06534375,"end":347.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.76534375,"end":353.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.71409375,"end":371.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.60159375,"end":374.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.80784375,"end":386.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.44784375,"end":384.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.56971875000005,"end":397.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.17721875,"end":388.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.30721875,"end":392.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.57284375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.43721875,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEA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這個 嗯"},{"start":178.73,"end":205.795,"text":"這個到目前是還沒有啦齁還沒有但是我跟委員報告齁這個就航庫來講當然是很注重他的債權的擔保所以我覺得剛才講的那個金管婚的幾個意見都很好我覺得很關鍵的一點就是最後一點就是榮保的機制那一定要落實那很重要因為為什麼因為我們榮保我們這元寶地最主要就是他缺乏流動性"},{"start":206.135,"end":225.06,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":225.18,"end":237.065,"text":"因為大家都在等這個建架系統出來才有辦法開始做一個貸款的作業。所以這個部分你們有去跟其他的像圓明會啊這些開過會嗎?這樣我這邊是還沒有啦。"},{"start":244.188,"end":258.797,"text":"那我希望近期之內來開一個會好不好因為我們越開會會讓事情的進度越快越有可能實現好不好所以不管是我們主政或者是內政部主政或者是經委主政我們都願意來參與啦好謝謝"},{"start":261.058,"end":290.217,"text":"那我們來看一下剛才你有提到就是農業金庫信保這個部分其實他也有回函他是說請原民會在原民貸款計畫中訂定相關的規範那建議成立原住民信用保證機構提高金融機構的承作意願農業金庫呢也積極配合辦理原住民的貸款計畫他們是願意來做一個設一個單一窗口來承作原保地的貸款業務"},{"start":291.238,"end":315.344,"text":"那再來我們看一下內政部其實也有回函啦因為他們有一個不動產估價的系統齁那他們有進行這個開始做這個工作那元寶地作為擔保品身帶跟建架那他涉及到資金的用途債權的確保所以呢他說是財政部金管會的全責會依主管機關的規劃期程協助"},{"start":317.785,"end":328.545,"text":"伍佳詩公會配合來研擬準則所以我還是要再問一次次長就是財政部的角色到底是什麼是不是應該常常的找他們來開會"},{"start":331.024,"end":348.512,"text":"這個跟委員報告,其實我覺得內政部還是很重要,因為實價的登錄其實是...上次內政部次長其實質詢台上他說會積極配合辦...我覺得內政部那個要先把那個系統先建立起來嘛但是他們總是希望要有人主導開會啊"},{"start":349.793,"end":371.181,"text":"除了開會的話就是看看我們來協調我們跟相關機關來協調那我是不是在這個地方我就做這樣的一個本席就做這樣一個要求就是財政部可不可以跟金管會然後找這些原民會內政部農委會農業部來競速建立原住民保留地貸款建價機制這樣可以嗎"},{"start":371.621,"end":394.811,"text":"我們來跟這個相關的部委先做一個溝通啦就最後一里路了啦因為目前重要就是要解決問題啦大概那個分頭進行的工作我們都已經有幫忙在要求了是是那你現在就是把粽子拉起來好不好是是我就覺得到底是不是我們來出面這個是又要考慮了那是不是有機會我們也來開個公聽會公聽會"},{"start":397.412,"end":402.173,"text":"我跟委員報告為什麼財政部出面不太好原因是什麼因為我們是供股行庫的股權管理局選手跟裁判會有這個問題啦"},{"start":418.097,"end":431.767,"text":"好了解了解好謝謝次長另外就是要請教一下因為去年我們的部長就任的時候他有表示才化法修正以規劃五大原則"},{"start":433.168,"end":449.317,"text":"那我現在就是要提的其實我在3月7號財政部質詢的時候我很關心因為這是很多人的陳情我們直轄市的這些原民區啊他們對他們的財政劃分就是合併"},{"start":450.718,"end":465.225,"text":"結果呢又回到公法人之後其實他們的財政劃分有點亂啊這個部分需要導正所以我就是很關心這個部分所以想要了解那麼財化法院版的法案何時會提出來"},{"start":467.352,"end":488.993,"text":"財務法這一部分我覺得當然要考慮到的因素很多啦就是第一個要考慮中央的財源夠不夠那什麼時候提就要看政策第二個就是看地方那這樣好不好我可能會連同剛才的那個部分我們就一起在公聽會的時候來討論可以嗎"},{"start":491.495,"end":520.081,"text":"因為我很想知道到底你們對即便法案還沒有提出來但是你們對直轄市原民區的財務分配我想知道你們有什麼樣的規劃方向我簡單的說幾句話就好了就是目前在直轄市改制之後我們直轄市裡面原來的鄉鎮市就原民區的鄉鎮市已經改為區嘛那區裡面它其實它的人口它的面積那個都已經在母法都已經做規範了"},{"start":521.361,"end":543.636,"text":"所以等於是說他所有的東西都已經歸到指甲室那指甲室以後再指甲室再跟這個原民區來做協商我想這個你們就先規劃我可能會開個公聽會好不好主席再一個最小的問題因為大家最近都在炒那個親安袋我想跟您確認一下因為我要回覆人家因為"},{"start":546.079,"end":556.337,"text":"這個我們看到的這個購屋者的樣本數戰術比有沒有去確認一下這個是個人還是家庭的年收入"},{"start":558.71,"end":578.471,"text":"委員的意思是說要評估的時候是不是這個是資料來源廉政中心嘛那大家都在說這些一百萬以下的人占整體61.6啊他們說五年後十年後這些人的房子就會被拍賣了啊因為付不起房貸啊"},{"start":580.498,"end":608.428,"text":"我想這個還要看個案的情況那我好啦我有去問廉政中心啦這是個人的收入啦對所以你們財政部是不是應該要去做一個澄清說明啊所以我也希望說你們是不是可以做一個連同保人因為他去貸款的時候你們一定有他們的整個家庭的收入的資料嘛對對對所以你們應該要就這個家庭收入跟房貸餘額去做出一個交叉分析可以嗎"},{"start":609.488,"end":622.297,"text":"要不然廉政中心出來這個東西大家都預期五年後會出現一個拍賣的斷頭潮你們要因應好不好謝謝主席 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10:58:04","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「學校午餐法制化」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-16","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:51:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-16T10:58:04+08:00","duration":384,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.472843750000001,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.72971875,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.766593750000006,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.352843750000005,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.13471875,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.10721875,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.33034375000001,"end":160.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.01409375,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.17784375000002,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.19659375,"end":266.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.49971875,"end":273.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.33846875,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.40284375000005,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.82846875,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.32846875,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.08159375,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.33409375,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.73909375000005,"end":384.35909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.769,"end":7.969,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":37.869,"end":62.551,"text":"那我小孩就跟我講一句話媽媽我跟你講喔我們學校的午餐連豬都不吃為什麼豬不吃因為豬是吃收水的嘛這比收水還難吃所以他們學校有非常多的小孩在中午裡面就不吃然後下課的時候跑去外面吃便利商店的東西可是他們可能吃了非常多的進製澱粉含糖飲料所以其實是非常不健康的所以這也就是我為什麼這麼關心這個議題喔"},{"start":65.448,"end":84.576,"text":"現在我們在我國其實在高中以下吃營養午餐的小孩其實有超過230萬但是我們剛剛講的就是這食安不僅是好不好吃的問題連基本的安全可能都有一些困難連做到這件事情都有點困難甚至有弊案傳出那其實讓家長跟學生都非常的擔心"},{"start":89.58,"end":105.013,"text":"教育部在2019年提出一個學校午餐的專法但後來其實並沒有順利的進入立法院來審議現在相關的規範都落在不同的法令規章裡面地方各政府也是各自為政學校一直沒有看到完整的政策以及法令"},{"start":106.178,"end":125.289,"text":"那監察院的調查報告其實也有提出這樣子的問題各縣市的學校營養午餐的品質稱之不齊﹑投入的經費不均所以學校的營養師與廚工的人力更有不足的情況那這幾年呢 中央雖然陸續推出了相關的措施包含這個國中小廚房的精進計畫 爭取了12.5億來改善學校的廚房設備"},{"start":131.272,"end":154.988,"text":"並且為了鼓勵學校午餐採用國內產銷履歷認證的安全食材三張EQ的補助經費也從過去的每人補助3.5塊提高到6塊錢2022年又再度提高到10元補助經費也從12億提高到35億也補助了弱勢兒童的午餐這使得學校午餐的國產食材從過去的60%到現在的98.6%但我想這個目標還是有再努力的空間"},{"start":163.874,"end":183.887,"text":"分散的政策是沒有辦法去支撐全國的學校午餐推動的業務像剛剛其實有很多的委員也都有提到就是對比鄰近的國家日本跟韓國他們都已經推這個學校給時法這個法規都已經上路了70年或是40年以上"},{"start":184.807,"end":192.576,"text":"所以這就更凸顯了我國需要這部專法的一個急迫性需要以法律的位階來保障學校營養午餐的一個推動"},{"start":194.229,"end":216.677,"text":"譬如說管理學校營養午餐的這個管理營養師呢﹖依照現行法規﹖國中以下的學校﹖班數40以上應設置1人﹖各縣市主管機關應設置若干人﹖但是我想現實的問題少子化﹖有多少的學校是可以達到40班以上﹖"},{"start":217.737,"end":217.897,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":236.186,"end":236.366,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":267.867,"end":289.644,"text":"學校午餐並不是只是吃進去健康這件事而已教育的功能也非常重要就像我剛剛講的 很多的國中的學生他寧願不去外面吃這些精緻澱粉和糖飲料那其實為什麼呢其實孩子有沒有清楚的一個飲食觀念跟知識大家吃東西之前會去計算熱量嗎會去看食物的營養標籤嗎"},{"start":293.527,"end":293.667,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":310.436,"end":310.576,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":329.12,"end":348.531,"text":"這就是我們在營養午餐這個階段其實也需要幫孩子去建立的一個基本的知識他才有可能有一個基本的判斷能力去辨別什麼東西對自己是健康什麼是對自己可能有影響的而不是就聽信了網路的這些傳說然後就傷害到自己的身體最後還有一件事情就是說我們吃進去的東西有沒有來認識我們的土地來串起飲食跟農漁業"},{"start":349.771,"end":349.971,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":374.222,"end":374.403,"text":"雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"152618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30030ce7f5f9fa8b91974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0fb34386f0e31270a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:48:56 - 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人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.43096875,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.03846875,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.443468750000001,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.89034375,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.864718750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.855968750000002,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.615343750000001,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.62346875,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.11221875,"end":21.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.816593750000003,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.94721875,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.942218750000002,"end":35.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":36.025343750000005,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.05909375,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.03721875,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.307218750000004,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.017218750000005,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.83971875,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.29471875,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.76659375,"end":81.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.17846875000001,"end":84.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.86159375000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.01346875,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.63346875,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.21846875,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.50096875000001,"end":109.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.24159375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":116.97471875000001,"end":119.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.56534375000001,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.60721875,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.61534375000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.09596875000001,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.04784375,"end":135.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.06471875,"end":135.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.13221875000002,"end":135.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.18284375000002,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.19971875000002,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.21659375000002,"end":135.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.50346875,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.95909375000002,"end":159.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.13034375,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.60096875000002,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.32096875000002,"end":190.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.07284375,"end":195.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.10159375,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":207.67784375000002,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.43284375000002,"end":210.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":210.22596875000002,"end":216.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.23846875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":217.80284375000002,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":224.26596875,"end":229.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.44221875000002,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":232.65284375000002,"end":233.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":234.30659375000002,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":263.98971875,"end":267.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.92159375,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.58284375,"end":275.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.59096875,"end":287.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.09596875,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.39534375,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.96909375,"end":288.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.15471875000003,"end":309.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":290.60159375,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":298.04346875000005,"end":298.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.58221875000004,"end":338.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.19346875,"end":310.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.88096875,"end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等一下那個也請那個財政部那個李次長有來吧等一下財政部我先問一下再請你上來那個"},{"start":37.479,"end":58.534,"text":"議員好,高主委我請教因為金馬盆離島居民後代移居至臺灣本島的人口出估差不多有180萬人左右那本席選區雖然是在永和中和但其實很多人是從金門、馬祖、澎湖移居過來本席關心整個離島建設的一個發展"},{"start":61.892,"end":75.758,"text":"財政為數證之母,一百一十二年度離島基金建設條例的基金只剩三點八九億元。一百一十三年度國庫雖然撥補了九億,但是離島鄉親擔心基金用完後後續無以為繼。"},{"start":83.255,"end":97.314,"text":"對此國安會跟財政部未來是我會有新的財源來注入來改善整個離島這個建設基金的體質讓基金能夠永續的這些運作。高組委你有什麼看法?"},{"start":97.995,"end":98.115,"text":"桑田博士"},{"start":124.144,"end":137.637,"text":"報告委員,因為撥補這個部分,基本上當然我們如果說是政府的財政非常充裕的話,那在主席總書那邊一定會配合國防會這邊來做相關的處理啊。這樣齁,我希望不要斷吹啦。"},{"start":139.599,"end":155.829,"text":"案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳"},{"start":170.317,"end":178.96,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":196.141,"end":196.161,"text":"案。"},{"start":217.867,"end":245.765,"text":"我們會來處理。」行管的問題啦因為你每年喔誤記的時候其實那裡剛好就是有藍眼淚嘛對不對那既然是這樣要發展觀光就是一定要做好不好那你請回來那個日前喔行政院金馬聯合服務中心與金馬盆聯盟啊舉辦離島建設條例研討會希望爭取制定金馬盆的基本法並修訂離島建設條例"},{"start":247.726,"end":275.359,"text":"編列預算來益助離島建設基金協助金馬盆的建設發展。在中央成立金馬盆委員會專責金馬盆發展的事務來扶持金馬盆在地的產業保存在地的文化、輔導青年創業與促進觀光發展等。對於金門、馬祖、澎湖、離島的鄉親們上述的主張,國安會裡面有沒有什麼看法?"},{"start":277.605,"end":294.334,"text":"案。」關於離島,其實就是有一個那個離島建設的指導委員會是在院裡面由院長來當院長。對啊,你是贊成還是反對?基本上其實如果剛才說的因為離島不只是金馬鵬還有另外那個"},{"start":295.274,"end":315.363,"text":"還有綠島藍玉等等的小琉球所以其實就離島來說其實已經有院層級的指導委員會現在已經是院長來擔任召集人了我是希望多關注多關心啦要支持啦好不好最後一個議題中國大陸宣布要推動福建民眾組團戶馬祖來旅遊"},{"start":317.244,"end":318.365,"text":"案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":339.002,"end":356.871,"text":"案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案﹑一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":368.778,"end":371.875,"text":"那個副主委你什麼看法?"},{"start":373.462,"end":397.923,"text":"對,這個是我這個層級沒有辦法製作的部分那你可不可以建議嘛反映啊所以立法院有這樣的一個聲音啊我想會把委員的意見我想會帶去給我們新竹委員講實在話兩岸本來就應該要交流但是從蔡政府開始就斷掉而且越來越糟糕越來越僵因為我在立法院算是自身委員我們希望我跟你講最後一段有一天那個對岸"},{"start":399.591,"end":427.977,"text":"就是社科院的院長他叫做于克里來這裡我面對面我跟他怎麼談我說齁兩岸是兄弟啦你們是大哥我們是你的弟弟啦我們在這裡生活久了希望維持現在這種生活的狀況希望維持這種制度我們只要不講台獨不搞台獨兩岸應該要和平共處相互尊重他馬上跟我說其實這樣就夠了因為大陸有疆獨有藏獨"},{"start":428.897,"end":450.78,"text":"我們是希望說兩岸要和平老百姓要的是什麼安居樂業不是要你每天都聽美國搞到最後兵兇戰危老百姓要的是這樣子嗎但是現在的蔡英文政府就是全部都聽美國的搞到你看美國叫你東你不敢西叫你西你不敢北不敢南這很糟糕捏"},{"start":451.761,"end":452.721,"text":"案﹚事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":473.769,"end":473.789,"text":"案。」"}]}},{"id":"152617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3016aad2eec04861fdc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f8184ff050374ff9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:50:47 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10:57:06","影片長度":"00:06:19","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":379,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:57:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:50:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時50分）謝謝主席，今天部長沒有來，所以請黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，法務部要全力打詐，但是最近我們發現一些不肖的律師涉入詐騙，而且他們還協助，比如說他本身是詐騙集團一分子，或者他們在協助詐騙集團，所以我們可以看到一年之內光是爆發律師涉案的詐騙到目前為止大概就有4起，而且涉案的律師越來越多，最近不是有一個非常大的律師集體涉案然後被起訴的案例？所以我們必須講這就是律師知法犯法，而且在整個反詐的過程裡面他們竟然還在幫助這些詐騙集團，我覺得是更不可取。","除了律師之外，其實讓大家覺得非常寒心的是現在包含一些法官、檢察官都涉詐，比如桃園地檢署的檢察官吳亞芝，她幫助她涉詐的律師男友出謀劃策，還幫他去即時監看律師派案群組，然後通報她的男友律師。這裡面也有最近最紅的鄭鴻威，甚至傳出他有一筆款項還藏在橋頭地院石姓法官的辦公室，這個也引起社會的矚目。事實上律師、法官、檢察官應該是協助我們去打詐的，結果他們都變成詐騙集團的一員，我覺得這個真的絕對應該被重懲。","另外還有涉案態度也非常囂張的，這個也是被起訴的案例，然後自己在說本來什麼律師倫理就是被當掉啊還怎麼樣，反正一樣可以做律師。所以如果有律師對自己的職務如此輕蔑而且還成為我們在打擊詐騙的一個主力的時候，我在這邊就特別提出來我認為應該去修正律師法，因為我們的律師法以現在來講比較輕，現在很多涉詐律師他們很會遊走法律邊緣，如果是緩起訴或者是輕罪的話，最後根本不影響他的律師資格，所以他們就會為了這些金錢鋌而走險。所以我覺得在律師法裡面對於這些律師觸法的時候、特別他們是觸及涉入詐騙集團時，我們應該給予他們更重的懲罰。","我的辦公室現在也請一些律師在幫忙，就是對於犯洗錢防制法或有組織犯罪條例第三條第一項有關詐騙的部分，發起、指揮、操縱犯罪組織或者參與犯罪的時候，只要一審有罪就應該被除名，因為像政治人物比如縣市長，當他一審有罪，縣市長的職務就被解除了，律師不應該也一樣嗎？另外一個部分，就是現在如果這些相關的案件，包含洗錢、包含詐騙，當你被起訴的時候也應該被停職，否則現在是沒有啊！你知道嗎，像那個鄭鴻威還可以在監獄裡面繼續指揮。所以我想請問一下次長，我未來要對律師法做修法，要課以比較重的刑責而且甚至要讓他們除名、讓他們停職，法務部會不會支持這樣的方向？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，的確現在律師如果要送懲戒的話，按照律師法規定必須要判決徒刑確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["黃次長謀信：另外還有一個概括的規定，叫做違反律師倫理規範情節重大的話也應付懲戒，但這個跟委員剛才所說的方向不一樣，剛剛委員說的是要不要在起訴的時候就停止他執行律師職務，現行的規範的確是限於特定的犯罪或最輕本刑一年以上的犯罪，才可以付懲戒然後停止他的職務，至於未來是不是考慮把這個放寬，主要是律師要有比較高的道德標準……"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["黃次長謀信：所以他只要犯稍微罪名把它擴張，就暫時停止他執行職務，這個方向我們可以來考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：是可以考量的嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為尤其被起訴，是暫停嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外我的修法的方向是如果一審有罪應該予以除名，這部分可不可以也在……"],["黃次長謀信：除名的部分，因為律師懲戒是由律師懲戒委員會去做自律，那部分我們要尊重律師懲戒委員會的決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：我還是希望、我剛剛講了，我舉例縣市長一審有罪就必須解除職務，政治人物當然要有高的道德標準，法律人當你觸法的時候，而且我不是說所有的法，尤其在詐欺、洗錢防制法還有你們原來的這些相關規定也應該去比照辦理，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們依照先前的宣告休息10分鐘。","休息（10時57分）","繼續開會（11時8分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","請沈伯洋委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.527843750000001,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.430343750000002,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.450343750000002,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.37409375,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.83346875,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":172.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.21909375,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.61784375000002,"end":214.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.81596875000002,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.50096875000003,"end":240.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.66846875000002,"end":269.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.38534375,"end":280.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.05034375,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.29471875,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.38909375000003,"end":315.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.88034375,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.28409375,"end":324.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.22409375,"end":342.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.83096875,"end":335.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.70846875,"end":336.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.59346875,"end":344.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.89284375,"end":352.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.34284375000004,"end":376.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.25471875000005,"end":378.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.95909375,"end":378.97596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.544,"end":10.15,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17.921,"end":41.851,"text":"市長我們法務部要全力打詐但是最近我們發現一些就是一些不肖的律師涉入這個詐騙而且他們還在協助本身比如說他是詐騙集團的其中一份子或者他們在協助詐騙集團所以我們可以看到一年之內光是爆發律師涉案的詐騙到目前為止大概就有四起"},{"start":45.333,"end":50.074,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":73.398,"end":87.29,"text":"除了律師之外其實很讓大家覺得非常的寒心的是現在包含一些法官檢察官他們都在涉入這些涉詐比如說這個桃園定檢署的檢察官吳雅芝她幫助她的涉詐的律師這個男友來出謀劃策"},{"start":95.356,"end":101.978,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員"},{"start":121.883,"end":122.363,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":152.644,"end":172.362,"text":"所以如果有律師對自己的職務如此的親密而且呢他還成為我們在打擊詐騙的一個主力的時候那我在這邊就特別提出來我認為應該去修正律師法"},{"start":173.503,"end":191.034,"text":"因為我們的律師法以現在來講就是說比較輕因為現在很多一些涉詐律他們很會走這個法律的遊走邊緣那他如果呢是還請訴或者他是輕罪的話最後根本不影響他的律師資格所以他們就會為了這些金錢鋌而走險"},{"start":193.155,"end":203.704,"text":"所以我覺得應該在律師法裡面對於這些律師他們當他們處罰的時候特別他們是觸及到涉入這些詐騙集團我們應該給予他們更重的懲罰包含我辦公室我現在也在請一些律師在幫我幫忙"},{"start":213.712,"end":239.992,"text":"就是對於犯洗錢防治法或者你有組織犯罪條例第三條第一項也就是有關詐騙的部分你發起指揮操縱犯罪組織或者參與犯罪的時候你只要一審有罪你應該被除名因為像政治人物比如縣市長他一審有罪他就必須這個縣市長的職務就被解除了"},{"start":240.712,"end":252.928,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具"},{"start":256.533,"end":266.501,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":281.072,"end":283.813,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":300.401,"end":306.711,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":315.945,"end":331.737,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":342.585,"end":347.454,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":353.373,"end":357.577,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"}]}},{"id":"152616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3036e0f60aa3a27d0fc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f1ed3886e2543e9df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:38:49 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10:50:44","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":715,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:50:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:38:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時38分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請法務部黃次長還有金管會的代表法律事務處的廖專門委員。跟主席反映一下，因為揭弊者法案其實有很大部分跟金融相關，事先不曉得金管會只有事務處專門委員的層級來，覺得有點可惜，跟主席反映一下。"],["主席：謝謝，這我會稍微思考一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","請教次長，看到法務部的報告，我的題目是保護跟保密之間、公益和損害之間怎麼去平衡。首先，這個法案一開始叫做吹哨者保護法，當時的李秘書長提到，各界意見分歧，還在整合當中，是不是這樣？你們認為一開始是不是有相當多不同的意見？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，的確是，這部分我們請負責的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是屬於廉政署？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，莊署長，我看到報告寫公私分立，公部門先行，這是一開始，對不對？後來你們說要公私合併，甚至還有一個上市上櫃版，就是私的部分是上市上櫃公司，為什麼？"],["莊署長榮松：當然這是牽涉到立法策略的調整，有這樣一個考量，都有一個歷史背景。"],["鍾委員佳濱：具體講為什麼是上市上櫃公司？"],["莊署長榮松：因為我們覺得中小企業太多，這部分我們怕衝擊太大，所以我們限縮在上市上櫃公司，因為上市上櫃公司的財報透明度比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為私部門的部分如果涉及公司，公司數量相當多，所以以上市上櫃……"],["莊署長榮松：對，怕衝擊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是為什麼要請金管會人員列席的原因。","那現在你們說公私分流、行政立法雙軌並進，這是什麼意思？"],["莊署長榮松：就是我們先就公部門的部分立法，私部門的部分我們是用行政指導的方式來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公私分流，公部門用立法來監督，私部門用行政來指導。好，其實我本來要問的就是揭弊者保護法各個版本的爭議或差異為何，接下來，我就具體案例來請教，這是跟法務部比較沒有關，要問署長嗎？因為我不曉得，次長晾在那裡也很奇怪，那次長，您先請回，謝謝。我請署長回答。那麼我就這個案例來講，依照上市上櫃版，公司董事應否納入保護的法理，舉例來說，根據公司法第二百零二條，公司業務執行應由董事會來決議，所以董事是負責公司執行一個很重要的守門人，是不是這樣？如果董事或董事會負責執行公司業務，是不是應該先就可能的弊案有除去或預防公司違法的義務？署長，就你對這個法條的理解。你怎麼僵住了呢？還是要問金管會？"],["莊署長榮松：委員講的是上市上櫃版？"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管是不是上市上櫃版，對啦，董事應該是上市上櫃啦，還是你要請金管會來講一下？你們認為呢？金管會對於上市上櫃版，你們認為董事或董事會負責執行公司業務，是否應該有預防或除去違法的義務嗎？"],["廖專門委員怡如：因為董事或董事會基於跟公司之間的委任關係，所以基本上他要負善良管理人的注意義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以是揭弊的話，他本身就有防弊的義務，如果他再去揭弊，那在什麼情況下他的揭弊才有可能符合未來揭弊者保護法的保護範圍？你認為呢？"],["廖專門委員怡如：抱歉，委員，您的意思我剛剛沒有聽清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再說一次，董事本身在執行業務、執行職權當中他就可以預防或者除去公司的一些違法事項，但他沒有去做這個事情而是以揭弊的方式來提出，這樣他受保障的法理基礎在哪裡？"],["廖專門委員怡如：不好意思，因為現在行政院基本上政策方向如果照最近的研議是希望公部門這邊先透過立法的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們對這部分沒有特別意見？"],["廖專門委員怡如：現在的政策方向是要就公部門先透過立法的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以金管會目前對這個部分還沒有開始研議？"],["廖專門委員怡如：不能說還沒有開始研議，但是因為它已經不是目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是目前的法案了？"],["廖專門委員怡如：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是目前我們委員的版本有沒有提到這樣一個是沒有區分上市櫃公司或沒有分公司，就是通通要納入？那你們要怎麼去因應？"],["廖專門委員怡如：這部分因為涉及相關政策，所以後續我們還要再……"],["鍾委員佳濱：具體來講我以一個案例來說，如果某公司的董事A發現理專B涉嫌挪用客戶資金，他是本來就可以直接在董事會中予以查處，或者他是要先向金管會匿名檢舉，還是先在董事會中檢討可能的內控疏失？實務上來講。這個我恐怕今天問不到署長、問不到次長，只能問到金管會，您覺得如果現在各個版本當中，以公司都涵蓋進去，那麼這個董事應該是直接向金管會匿名檢舉，還是在董事會先檢討可能的內控疏失？"],["廖專門委員怡如：這個部分的話，直接向金管會匿名檢舉或者是跟董事會檢討可能的內控缺失，因為他有可能兩邊都可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：都可以？"],["廖專門委員怡如：但這個部分只是我自己個人，因為這還沒有形成一個政策方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，既然是個人，我們就不便再問下去了。","再往下看內稽內控的法遵如何落實，如果不是董事像這樣對於違法者有職務上的督導之責任，譬如職員C發現自己的上司理專B疑似挪用客戶的資金，如果公司已經有內部的法遵內稽內控，那他是不是應該要先向公司的法遵檢舉？你認為呢？或者我來問署長？因為這個版本你們毫不研議啊，這個上市上櫃版你們現在好像是把它放棄了。署長你說明一下，你們在研議過程中遇到這種情況時怎麼去分工？"],["莊署長榮松：如果依上市上櫃的版本，我個人認為他應該兩部分都可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩部分都可以？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看金控公司內稽內控的稽核辦法，包括他的身分資料應予保密、不得因檢舉而對檢舉人予以解僱。我想這裡有一個問題就在你們的報告當中，因為我還沒有看到你們最新的版本，你們好像是3月的時候送行政院嘛？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前有再修改嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：現在行政院有開過一次審查會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以可能還在變化當中？"],["莊署長榮松：還沒有出行政院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒有定案？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我想請問，你們的報告當中說檢舉跟揭弊，要怎麼區分？現在我們內稽內控有檢舉啊，這個檢舉跟你們未來所謂的揭弊要怎麼做區分？"],["莊署長榮松：揭弊當然指的是揭弊者保護法裡面特定的犯罪，其他的部分我們就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，就是特定的犯罪，那金融的部分像我剛講到的挪用客戶資金，這算不算是公司內部的弊案？"],["莊署長榮松：如果依照我們送行政院的草案最後一個版本的話，我們是限於公部門版。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們只限於公部門，好，已經越來越清楚了。","那我們再往下走，其實這裡就有第三個問題了，受理揭弊單位的保密義務，這裡面包括私部門還有公部門，因為你們說私部門你們都……這樣我就問不下去了，因為現在所有委員的版本是不是都包含了私部門？是不是？"],["莊署長榮松：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請教一下，既然這麼多委員的版本都聚焦於私部門，你們說目前行政院可能的方向是公私並進，但是公部門是用立法的方式來處理、私部門是用行政指導的方式來處理，而我們現在所有的版本內容都是公私一起進入到揭弊的檢舉。我再請教一下，揭弊當然是希望為了維護社會的公共利益，我們授予知之違法者對於所屬的部門（不管是公部門或私部門）提出舉發，揭弊者的身分因為要保護，所以我們要保密，揭弊的內容在調查過程當中是否宜於揭露？你認為呢？"],["莊署長榮松：在調查的過程當然是保密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要課以揭弊受理單位保持對調查保密的義務，是不是？"],["莊署長榮松：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後要提到，其實這裡面就出現了一個最近社會上引起很多討論的叫做「檢舉達人」，檢舉達人當時的立意是希望透過民眾的檢舉協助執法機關擴大執法範疇，原來用意良好；但是後來檢舉者不能取代執法者，甚至有專門職業的浮濫檢舉，造成民眾很大的痛苦。其實在揭弊者保護法一方面我們希望的是揭弊能夠揭發一個不管公私部門內部的弊案，但是揭弊的過程當中如果不是真實，甚至你們在報告當中也提出，我們草案當中有提到如果以損及特定部門、公司的利益為目標的揭弊，你們覺得這個部分因為很難定義，所以你們沒有去規劃，是不是這樣？"],["莊署長榮松：各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假，事實上是有排除、有防範的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是在不知道是虛假之前你們會調查嘛，那如果當初提供者、揭弊者的目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊，在調查過程中惡意向外洩漏，而造成他打擊特定部門的用意，你們要怎麼樣去預防？就是在揭弊的過程，匿名揭弊、調查、公開報導，譬如以這個例子，離職員工爆料他的公司是烏龍爆料，結果被要求判賠50萬喔，可是公司商譽已經受損了。在你們的版本，調查過程中是不是對弊案的內容和揭弊者都要進行保密？"],["莊署長榮松：要保密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要保密，好。最後因為今天你們的內容顯然跟我們現在已經送委員會的版本有很大的差異，這是我的結論：請主管機關在一週內研擬報告，比較你們現在送院的版本跟其他在委員會的版本的差別，可以嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也跟主席請求，我覺得今天排這個揭弊者保護法的討論很好，很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是很大的缺漏，主席是不是可以允許未來這個法案在程序上多一點時間，我們能夠將所有的法案都完整納入來進行審查？可以嗎？"],["主席：鍾召委，這部分我會很審慎的考量，因為這很重要，我覺得要，因為這草案好像滿多爭議的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對呀！"],["主席：我知道、我知道，我等一下思考一下，愈嚴謹當然是愈好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["主席：我們法律人的觀念是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主席。謝謝！"],["主席：下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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7.586,"end":583.169,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":603.85,"end":628.21,"text":"對各版本還有我們最後送行政院的版本對這種惡意或者是虛假我們事實上是有排除的是有方法的但是在不知道它是虛假之前你們會調查嗎那如果當初提供者接避者目的就是透過可能無法確定為不實的資訊在調查過程中惡意向外洩露而造成對他打擊特定部門的用意那你們怎麼樣去預防就是"},{"start":631.889,"end":633.832,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":647.759,"end":656.484,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法制委員會第24期司法及法"},{"start":669.928,"end":694.347,"text":"那也跟主席謝謝也跟主席請求我覺得今天排這個雞皮疙瘩保護案的討論很好這很顯然的現在我們手上有的版本相較於我們未來期望能夠來審查的版本還是有很大的缺肉是不是可以主席可以允許未來我們在這個法案在程序上多一點時間我們能夠將所有的法案都完整的納入來進行審查可以嗎"},{"start":695.923,"end":696.783,"text":"中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案"}]}},{"id":"152615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30f5d69ac206cfe634c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f709c5d5d9e4bc9205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:28:56 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10:38:20","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":564,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:38:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:28:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時28分）主席，有請次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長，想請教一下，我們這兩天的會議其實都很重要，為什麼我們的部長都不見了？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，部長今天是因為行政院院會，以及內閣總辭的相關流程在進行。"],["羅委員智強：昨天呢？"],["黃次長謀信：昨天他已經有向召委請教，因為他昨天到花蓮去……"],["羅委員智強：是這樣啦，我是幫媒體問，因為媒體都等著想要聽聽看部長對於陳水扁前總統特赦這個問題的高見，但是部長就不來啊！"],["黃次長謀信：他昨天是到花蓮就震災做相關的慰勞，以及對更保、犯保團體的慰勞。"],["羅委員智強：我直接講啦！我很想聽聽部長的意見，雖然他要卸任了，但想聽聽他對陳水扁前總統被特赦的一些意見，我覺得很多媒體也很關心，所以有些媒體甚至直接問我，部長是不是因為要迴避談陳水扁的特赦，所以乾脆這兩天就不到立法院來？"],["黃次長謀信：不會。"],["羅委員智強：當然不會！你一定回答不會。","可是我就幫忙大家關切，還是先關切昨天有關於陳水扁特赦的問題。我想請教次長，你昨天有說，38次的保外就醫都有審酌，當時臺中監獄跟矯正署都參酌醫療證明，認為這個有助於他的醫療，就是說他如果參加什麼民進黨週年慶的歡樂派對──傅崐萁委員問的，這些不管是輔選活動、外面的活動、政治活動，你的說法是說有助於他的醫療啊？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我是說醫院的診斷證明書上面說從事相關活動有助於醫療。"],["羅委員智強：次長，你知道問題在哪裡了吧？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["羅委員智強：我非常贊同，當然有助於他的醫療啊！我想請問次長，一年在監所裡面生病的受刑人有多少？有多少？"],["黃次長謀信：生病？"],["羅委員智強：對，就是生病的。"],["黃次長謀信：生病的人非常多啊！"],["羅委員智強：非常多啦！你目前大概沒有統計數字。"],["黃次長謀信：沒辦法統計。"],["羅委員智強：那沒關係，請補一個數字給我，好不好？一年大概有多少受刑人在獄所裡面、監所裡面就醫就診？好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["羅委員智強：這些就醫就診的受刑人如果今天出去參加歡樂party，你覺得有沒有益於他的身體健康？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們保外就醫是否……"],["羅委員智強：我問你有沒有嘛？以正常人的標準。"],["黃次長謀信：每一個個案去判斷有沒有有助於身體健康。"],["羅委員智強：當然有益於他身體健康，很開心啊！那你知道我的問題是什麼了吧？關鍵是有益於他的健康這件事嗎？關鍵是陳水扁前總統過去這麼多年，法務部對於保外就醫的制度，你覺得公平嗎？一般受刑人覺得公平嗎？其他受刑人如果是今天陳水扁的狀態，請問保外就醫還有可能繼續存在嗎？其他受刑人，舉一個例子給我聽，已經可以出庭、已經可以上直播、已經可以參與政治活動、已經可以輔選了。我先問啦，保外就醫是有病就可以保外就醫嗎？是嗎？感冒、發燒都可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：它是無法醫治或難以醫治……"],["羅委員智強：答對了嘛！現在他的狀況有到無法醫治嗎？有嗎？沒有啦！那你舉一個例子，陳水扁以外的例子舉一個給我聽嘛，保外就醫的體系現在是為陳水扁一個人更改了過去這麼多年來保外就醫的作法。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上，現在每年大概將近有3、400個人保外就醫。"],["羅委員智強：你跟我講一個像陳水扁的例子，他保外就醫到現在這麼健健康康、開開心心，參加歡樂趴、直播、出庭，還可以繼續保外就醫，你講一個例子給我聽。有沒有？第二個例子講給我聽啊！不為難你啦！講不出來嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：個案上准不准延，我還是昨天那句話，臺中監獄跟矯正署必須審酌。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，次長，我也知道你為難，我也不會咄咄逼人，你顯然拿不出來，沒關係，如果你們拿得出第二個例子，補個資料給我，好不好？有沒有第二個例子，像陳水扁現在的狀況，還在保外就醫的？"],["黃次長謀信：可能沒有一個個案是相同的。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，當然沒有個案相同，因為這是為陳水扁開的特例。抱歉，特赦之後刑免了，對不對？保外就醫也沒有這一件事存在了，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：如果免除執行的話，是的。"],["羅委員智強：對，下一個問題，現在陳水扁不是保外就醫而已，還包括很多司法審判目前都在什麼狀態？還有四個官司在什麼狀態？"],["黃次長謀信：兩個是在高院停審，兩個在地院停審的狀態。"],["羅委員智強：都停審狀態，停審快十年了，對不對？什麼原因停審？"],["黃次長謀信：刑訴法第二百九十四條有一些應停審的要件，法官裁定……"],["羅委員智強：講白了就是身體健康因素，對不對？有人可以像陳水扁這麼活潑、健康，再以身體健康因素停審十年的，你講一個個案給我聽。每一個個案都有差別，我幫你回答，對不對？你講一個個案給我聽。"],["黃次長謀信：不是，這個是司法院審判的個案，不是法務部……"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道你要講給司法院聽，但我今天是講給所有人聽。特赦的問題是蔡英文總統的職權，那就算了，民進黨要特赦貪污總統，那是他憲法的職權，可是他沒辦法特赦還沒有判決定讞的案件，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：按照法律上的見解，特赦只限於確定案件。"],["羅委員智強：對，現在的問題是停審的這些案子要怎麼處理？"],["黃次長謀信：刑訴法第二百九十四條到第二百九十八條，尤其第二百九十八條規定，如果停審原因消滅的話應繼續進行，或者……"],["羅委員智強：停審原因早就消滅了。"],["黃次長謀信：那是法官要去決定的。"],["羅委員智強：這當然不關你的事，但我也跟法官們呼籲，停審原因早就消滅了。","接下來我想問一下，你知道陳建仁院長拍板打詐行動1.5是去年5月，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：5月然後……"],["羅委員智強：打詐行動綱領1.5，對不對？去年他不提還好，一提打詐行動綱領不是減少50%的詐騙，是增加28%的詐騙，再努力一下真的就1.5了，什麼叫1.5？1.5倍。我想請教您，您認為到目前為止，打詐行動綱領1.5從2023年1月到5月的1萬6,799件，到下半年──6月到12月成長到2萬1,485件，案件是增加還是減少？"],["黃次長謀信：現在案件數還處在高原期，沒有辦法立竿見影看到立即下降的效果，沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：越打越詐，這才是今天的問題。昨天我很高興賴清德總統當選人舉了一個例子，現在詐騙真的是全民受苦，對不對？他講什麼例子呢？他舉前經濟部長尹啟銘，說連他當過政務官、有社會歷練都會被詐騙，他講得很好。但我很好奇，你知道你們打詐的所有部門、機構裡面，政府跨部門合作有一個很重要的單位叫NCC吧？你知道NCC副主委也被詐騙過嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：剛剛有聽……"],["羅委員智強：有聽過嘛！詐騙358萬。尹啟銘是因為有人騙他，說他兒子被綁架，天下父母心，非常心憂急切所以被騙了120萬。我就很好奇為什麼賴清德總統當選人要舉尹啟銘的例子，怎麼不舉翁柏宗的例子？要麼兩個例子都舉，對不對？他只舉尹啟銘的例子，不舉翁柏宗的例子是什麼意思？但是他至少點出一件事情，真的，現在詐騙是全民受害、全民受苦。我們今天討論刑度都只是起步而已，我也認同法務部的一些意見，加重刑度不是全部，對不對？可是今天行政機關到目前的作法，你覺得成績有說服人民嗎？到目前為止，不是只有法務部啦，不能只怪法務部，整個跨部會、整個政府機關的動能、作法甚至科技，都是不夠的。所以不是今天刑法的刑度修改以後就萬事太平，詐騙就煙消雲散了。拜託一下再努力一點，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝。"],["主席：本席再作一個議程的宣告，因為剛剛宣告說莊瑞雄委員詢答結束後休息10分鐘，但因為莊委員跟王鴻薇委員次序對調，所以待會在王鴻薇委員詢答結束後休息10分鐘。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.95596875,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.144718750000003,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.309093750000002,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.24096875,"end":34.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":35.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.134718750000005,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.602218750000006,"end":82.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.80471875,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.13659375,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.97159375000001,"end":84.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.52409375,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.13971875,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.53721875000001,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.58284375000001,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.96221875,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.76784375000001,"end":124.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.04096875,"end":126.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.60596875,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.57596875000002,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.61784375000002,"end":136.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.35534375,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.42221875,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.02096875,"end":146.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.54721875,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.60159375,"end":158.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.11159375,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.08096875,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.39284375,"end":168.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.02096875,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.48471875,"end":174.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.63659375,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.84284375000001,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.72409375,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.36909375000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":189.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.07721875000001,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.36534375000002,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.51284375,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.48221875000002,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.81534375,"end":220.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.07221875000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.89471875,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.10909375000003,"end":232.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.41659375,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.88034375,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.20471875,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.24971875000003,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.29096875000002,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.36221875,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.20596875,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.01159375000003,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.41534375000003,"end":267.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.69721875,"end":277.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.26596875,"end":279.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.97034375000004,"end":288.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.43721875,"end":293.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.09471875,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.74409375000005,"end":298.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.06034375,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker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及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":331.209,"end":359.443,"text":"那我也再講一個例子有人可以像陳水扁這麼活潑健康然後在與身體健康因素停審10年的你講一個個案給我聽每個個案都有差別啦我幫你回答對不對你講一個個案給我聽不是這個是司法院審判的個案我當然知道你要講給司法院啦但是我今天是講給所有人聽嘛特色的問題蔡英文總統的職權那就算了啦"},{"start":360.987,"end":367.309,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":380.215,"end":405.242,"text":"公園報告我們刑訴法294到298條到尤其298條有如果庭審原因消滅的話就要應繼續進行或者庭審原因早就消滅了啦那是法官他們要去決定當然啦這當然不關你的事啦但我也跟法官們呼籲啊庭審原因早就消滅了那接下來我想問一下齁你知道陳建業院長拍板打炸行動1.5是去年5月嘛對不對"},{"start":407.213,"end":409.216,"text":"五月然後六七月正十九條文修正草案案。"},{"start":424.755,"end":432.003,"text":"那我想請教您,您認為到目前為止這個打造行動綱領1.5號從2023年1月到5月的16799件到下半年就6月到12月成長到21485件?案件是增加還減少?"},{"start":443.381,"end":466.181,"text":"現在的案件數當然還在處在一個高原期沒有辦法立竿見影看到它立即的下降一下我是沒有錯越打越詐這才是今天一個問題那昨天我很高興賴清德總統當選人他舉了一個例子他講詐騙當然是現在詐騙真的是全民受苦對不對他講什麼例子他舉說前經濟部長尹啟明說他也被詐騙"},{"start":467.602,"end":470.304,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":488.308,"end":507.428,"text":"有聽過吧?詐騙三百多萬,三百五十八萬啦。贏啟明是因為他兒子有人騙他說他兒子被綁架,他天下父母親非常心憂急切,所以被騙了一百二十萬。我就很好奇為什麼在新的總統當選人齁,要舉例,要舉贏啟明的例子,怎麼不舉翁伯忠的例子呢?"},{"start":510.35,"end":517.195,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":531.559,"end":536.444,"text":"刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":551.57,"end":560.516,"text":"所以不是今天我們這個刑法的刑度修正以後修改以後就萬事太平詐騙就煙消於散了拜託一下再努力一點好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3058ffe902235f3d10c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f0feb37a46d737cc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:19:13 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10:28:39","影片長度":"00:09:26","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":566,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:28:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:19:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時19分）主席，我們請黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：次長好，今天主席所安排的是兩個部分，一個部分是揭弊者保護法，另外一部分是刑法有關詐欺罪第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之四的修正，基本上，這確實也是多年來民眾所關心的案子，所以今天安排這樣子的議程來討論，就是希望能夠儘快讓這樣子的法案進入我們立法的程序。有關揭弊者保護法，剛才前面的委員都有討論了，次長，雖然你是事務官，但是如果在質詢過程中對於政府有不實的指控，我認為次長身為政府機關的一分子，也應該要勇於表達。"],["黃次長謀信：當然。"],["沈委員發惠：有關揭弊者保護法，剛才謝龍介委員也都提到了，就是他希望揭弊者保護這個部分整個最後立法的結果，我們不講這個過程怎麼樣，但是對立法的結果希望能夠做到兩件事情，第一件事就是要公私分流，分流的意思不是說私部門不要處理，不是這樣，但是包括舉證責任倒置的這些相關規定在公部門跟私部門應該要做一些區別，也就是說，我們更加鼓勵公部門的吹哨者，所以跟私部門的吹哨者我覺得要做公私分流，這是第一件事，並不是說不要，而是要分流。第二，上市櫃公司跟中小企業也要分流，也就是說，都可以保護吹哨者，但是上市櫃公司跟中小企業的規定也要做區別，對這個部分次長同意嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這個部分我是不是請我們廉政署署長說明？"],["沈委員發惠：好，請署長。"],["莊署長榮松：跟委員說明，因為其實這個是涉及立法政策的問題，那當然……"],["沈委員發惠：可不可以簡單說明？因為我後面還要問很多問題，請問我剛剛講的這樣對不對？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["沈委員發惠：就是公私分流，然後再來在私的部分，中小企業跟上市櫃公司也做分流，對他們做不同程度的吹哨者保護規定，這樣對不對？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分我們也贊同。"],["沈委員發惠：好，就是這樣啦！我希望整個立法過程要注意這個。至於剛才有人提到我們政府有一個草案，後來因為有金控公司來遊說蘇貞昌院長，所以蘇貞昌院長就喊停，然後說不要講中小企業，就是這些金控公司在反對。大家強調要白紙黑字，我這裡就是白紙黑字，社團法人中華民國中小企業總會林榮燦理事在你們廉政署所辦的這個揭弊者保護法草案立法研討會上面，就明確的代表中小企業說，全國150萬家中小企業，5人以下的公司占八成，不應納入揭弊者保護法，這是他們的主張，不是我的主張，是他們的主張，所以中小企業也明確反對不分流的揭弊者保護法嘛！所以這個部分你們就要勇於提出，不是什麼大金控公司，而是中小企業也對於如果沒有做公私分流，沒有做上市櫃公司與中小企業的分流，這樣的揭弊者保護法會出大問題啦！這個部分要勇於辯護，署長請回座。","接下來，今天另外一個部分也是大家非常關心的，有關於打詐的部分、關於刑法第三百三十九條修正的部分。就在昨天，我們的賴清德總統在民進黨中常會裡面明確指出，打詐是未來最優先施政，因此今天我們就在這個時候，其實是我們主席先排，不是說我們賴清德主席講完之後，我們召委才排這個案子，不是，我們召委本來就排了這個案子，針對刑法第三百三十九條的修正。不過，我在這裡要跟次長探討，因為就在上個禮拜，我們行政院院會通過了由內政部主政的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案，還有法務部、相關部門的四個法案，對不對？就是所謂的打詐四法剛剛通過了。打詐四法當然有包括新的法令，包括詐欺犯罪危害防制條例、包括科技偵查及保障法，這是新的，兩個新的以及兩個舊法的修正，洗錢防制法跟通訊保障及監察法。","今天我們的議程是單就刑法第三百三十九條跟第三百三十九條之四兩個條文來進行刑度的提高，對不對？今天大概所有委員的提案都是這樣子，我個人也肯定主席今天安排這樣的議程，但同時我也希望，因為政府、行政院已經提出這個專法，其他三個法我不講，我就針對詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，行政院已經提出、通過這個專法的草案，這個專法未來跟刑法──如果今天單就刑法第三百三十九條跟第三百三十九條之四來做修正，我認為不夠嚴謹，而且也會有問題。我來做一個對照，如果我們今天就光修正刑法的話，它就是變成所有的詐欺樣態全部都一併提高刑度，對不對？但是事實上，行政院目前的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案有區分危害程度，不同的危害程度分別提高刑責，對不對？是不是這樣，次長？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，如同剛剛……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有錯嘛。今天如果就刑法第三百三十九條單獨來做修正的話，事實上它只是在調整刑度而已，但是我們目前的打詐專法是做整體的打詐考量，它有分為就源、溯源、防詐機制，甚至包括被害人保護，還有提高假釋門檻，這些全部都包括在我們的打詐四法裡面對不對？包括在我們詐欺犯罪危害防制條例裡面對不對？次長，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我個人希望今天我們整個修法，大家做充分的討論之後，我們能夠等待行政院儘快將詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案送到立法院來，我們一併併案審查，大家就這些不同的詐欺犯罪態樣來做討論，不然的話會有什麼樣的狀況？大家現在當然對詐騙集團非常非常痛恨，所以要提高刑度變成全民的共識，但是我們如果不分行為樣態全部統統提高，那會變成什麼呢？會變成我在路邊，我們常常在車站看到有人來跟你說，我的錢包被偷了，你可以借我100塊坐車回家嗎？我整個錢包……結果是詐欺，他也必須要提高刑度到七年以下，會變成所有不分行為態樣全部統統提高，會造成這樣的結果，對不對？次長，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，沒有錯。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有錯嘛！所以我們應該就目前大家社會所關心、所痛恨的詐騙樣態，來進行額度的提高、刑度的提高，所以這個部分我是希望，我們今天也請主席不要說今天就保留，又保留送政黨協商，又表決，強行表決，保留送協商，我覺得不要，因為詐欺這個事情，現在詐欺專法也已經要送立法院了，我們還是用整個專法、整套的，刑法現在做的就只是對法務部的起訴跟法院的量刑有所規範而已，事實上整個專法牽涉到數位部、牽涉到NCC、牽涉到內政部，相關的這些部會統統有所牽涉，還包括金管會，所以它是全面的。我個人是不贊成今天我們草草就刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四來做修正，我個人是認為我們應該要比較周全，就是等待行政院的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案送來之後一併審查，以上。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。","另外，主席這邊先作會議程序的宣告，稍後在莊委員瑞雄詢答完畢後，休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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案。"},{"start":406.664,"end":410.946,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":431.305,"end":436.866,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":457.19,"end":484.696,"text":"大家現在當然對詐騙集團非常非常痛恨所以要提高刑度變成全民的共識但是我們如果不分行為樣態全部通通提高那會變成什麼呢?會變成我在路邊我們常在車站看到有人來跟你說我錢包被偷了你可以借我借我一百塊多少回去存嗎?我整個錢包結果是詐騙他也必須要提高刑度到七年以下"},{"start":486.001,"end":502.893,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":508.917,"end":511.618,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":535.026,"end":537.568,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":566.323,"end":566.934,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"}]}},{"id":"152613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc307f6db7e1e9a60589c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f2895f56770e3b51c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:09:57 - 10:19:02","影片長度":"00:09:05","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":545,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:19:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:09:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請法務部黃次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長早。我們今天要併案審查的法案，包含刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案，也就是有關普通詐欺罪、電腦詐欺罪還有加重詐欺罪的部分。我想對於詐騙的議題，已經有過諸多討論，不分黨派的委員都提出打詐的相關提案，並且行政院提出的打詐行動綱領也交由各部會進行當中，打詐專法草案也已經送來立法院等待排定進行審查。但是，從網路媒體昨天公布的民調當中，我們可以觀察到，當下民眾最在乎、也最擔憂的還是詐騙防制的相關問題。","我們今天看到許多的草案是針對刑責的加重，希望嚴懲詐騙的犯罪行為。打詐有四大面向，包括識詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐，其中法務部主責的是懲詐的部分，包括嚴懲詐欺犯罪和保護被害人。但是在研擬打詐專法的過程當中，法務部應該也要對其他的面向提出相關的意見。我想請教次長，對於打詐四大面向當中，我們應該最優先來補強的是哪一個面向？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，整個打詐專法研擬的過程當中，法務部當然從頭到尾都參與整個法案的研擬，雖然它有分成四個面向，法務部主要負責的是懲詐的面向，但其他面向，法務部也積極的參與。委員所提問的應該是哪一個面向最重要，其實每一個面向都重要，從防制到後來的追懲都是重要的，甚至更後面的被害人的資產返還、回復都是很重要的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。因為防範犯罪應該是勝於懲罰，我相信這是大家都認同的，因為法務部主責只有在這個懲詐的部分，所以我還是希望對各個面向應該都要去關心，讓整個過程能夠事先來防範，這樣應該會比較好一點。"],["陳委員俊宇：根據刑事局的資料，投資詐欺是案件大宗，也是造成最多財損的一個類型，很多詐騙集團或是不肖人士透過社群平臺來做宣傳或邀請民眾到投資的群組，以保證會賺錢的這種名義來詐騙民眾，被害的民眾受到巨額的財損、損失，相似的案件層出不窮，所以也有委員提案將投資詐騙列為詐欺加重的事由，但是法務部在報告當中表示這個和銀行法相關規定有部分重疊之處，那我想請教次長，對於類似的這種投資詐騙案件是不是有必要加重懲罰？在院版的打詐專法當中是否對投資詐騙有其他的規範？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，投資詐騙的案件數的確在我們電詐的相關案件裡面占最高比率，至於是不是應該要把投資詐騙獨立定一個刑罰，從法務部的角度來看，我們在打詐專法裡面已經把詐騙金額超過一千萬的這種高額投資詐騙列為一種獨立的刑罰，可處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑，事實上，我們在打詐專法裡面就這一塊高額詐騙的部分已經有獨立刑罰的加重處罰規定了。"],["陳委員俊宇：那如果我們不要去設定一個金額呢？次長，您剛剛說是一千萬以上。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：那對於剛好九百萬的，我們就認為這樣不符合這個條件，我覺得也不公平。"],["黃次長謀信：但是我們在打詐專法裡面加重的要件有各種要件，投資金額超過一千萬只是其中的一種犯罪類型，如果你有其他複合式的犯罪，它也有可能構成加重的另外一種獨立犯罪類型。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，對於這種加重的情形，我想請教你，在司法院所提的書面報告裡面，對於草案當中將第三百三十九條之四第一項從一年以上七年以下提高到三年以上十年以下有疑慮，因為不能進行簡式的審判程序，都變成強制辯護的案件，認為這樣勢必會造成在法院程序上增加審理期間更加全面延長的情況，本來就非常吃緊的司法人力恐怕也會更加吃不消，就誠如剛剛次長您所說的，那我想請教次長是如何看待這個問題，有沒有兼顧的方法可以來防止？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就法律面來講，如果把刑責一律提高到三年以上十年以下的話，在刑事訴訟法的領域的確會產生三個成本上的增加，第一個，這個案件都會變成強制辯護的案件；第二個，法官就全部都要進行合議審判；第三個，就是它不能夠適用簡式判決，所以這會增加司法院法官整個訴訟成本的增加，這部分是沒有錯的，在訴訟法上是沒有錯的，但是實際上會不會造成怎麼樣的效應，這畢竟不是本部所掌管，必須要尊重司法院的意見。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，另外就是剛剛提到有關人力的問題，司法官過勞也是我們相當關心的一個問題，最近傳出檢察官在開庭的途中突然脫掉法袍離開法庭的消息，後來我們從裁定書以及法院和檢察官本人的回復初步瞭解到，是因為當天這個檢察官身體不舒服要去看醫生，並且希望能夠獲得正常的休息時間，對這起案件啟動了行政調查，在調查之後可能有什麼樣的處理方式？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當然現在調查的結果還沒有出來，臺東地檢署現在正在調查當中，那委員問的是一個假設性的結果，假設調查的結果認為檢察官他在行政上有疏失的話，我現在講的是在法律上他有可能最嚴重會送我們個案的評鑑，次嚴重的話，他的長官也就是他的檢察長可以進行職務監督，職務監督的結果也許是警告，也許是促其注意，那最嚴重也許是要送到我們職務評定來進行評定，就是職務評定、個案評鑑這樣子。"],["陳委員俊宇：以這一個個案來看，檢察官這種處理海量案件的情況，然後他的業務非常繁重，讓檢察官相當疲勞，我相信這是大家都能夠感受得到的，從這個羅姓檢察官的回應中看到最後一句有寫到：「過勞司法的形成，有時候真的不只是因為案量的關係」，所以顯然除了案件量之外，還有其他的因素讓檢察官備感疲勞。我想對於過勞司法的部分本委員會也有召開過公聽會來討論，我們在討論打詐的同時，也應該一併考慮到人力的問題，因為有健全的司法工作環境，才有打擊詐騙的能力，次長，您認同嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：完全贊成。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以對於我們檢察官的部分，除了剛剛講的這個個案以外，我也希望我們對於其他檢察官應該要去檢視他們在工作上壓力的問題，讓他們有舒緩的情況，好，以上。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請沈發惠委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.83346875,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.469718750000002,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.96721875,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.000968750000002,"end":30.675968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.688468750000002,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.19409375,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.19221875000001,"end":91.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.78034375,"end":93.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.07534375,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.85409375,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.89096875000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.58221875000001,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.68659375000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.63096875000002,"end":133.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.96784375000001,"end":164.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.71409375000002,"end":164.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.95034375,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.01784375,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.01534375,"end":181.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.73909375000002,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.39284375000003,"end":221.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.73471875,"end":222.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.59534375,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.15971875000002,"end":251.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.80596875,"end":281.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.48909375,"end":283.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.50596875,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.15534375000004,"end":292.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.45784375,"end":305.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.21096875,"end":318.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.73221875,"end":338.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.50971875000005,"end":355.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.97534375000004,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.26784375,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.03284375000004,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.66784375000003,"end":435.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.89534375000005,"end":435.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.92909375000005,"end":435.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.19909375000003,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.02471875000003,"end":478.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.49721875000006,"end":472.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.84221875000003,"end":501.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.87659375000004,"end":516.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.33409375,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.8390937500001,"end":528.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.48409375,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.96721875,"end":543.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.1103437500001,"end":545.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.49846875,"end":545.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.92034375,"end":545.9709687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.869,"end":49.807,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請我們法務部黃次長好麻煩次長好次長早委員早我們今天要併案審查的法案當中那個包含我們刑法第三百三十九條、三百三十九之三、三百三十九之四條的這個修正草案那也就是有關我們普通這個詐欺罪還有電腦詐欺罪還有加重詐欺罪的部分"},{"start":50.447,"end":69.539,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法"},{"start":75.282,"end":92.059,"text":"但是從這個網路媒體昨天公布的這個民調當中我們可以觀察到當下民眾最在乎也最擔憂的還是詐騙防治的相關問題啦齁那我們今天看到許多的草案是針對行者的加重希望這個"},{"start":94.104,"end":98.746,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":117.602,"end":127.851,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":129.85,"end":139.674,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":155.439,"end":174.936,"text":"那從這個防治到這後來的這個追審都是重要的後面的被害人的資產返還回復都是很重要的好因為防範犯罪應該是這個防範勝於懲罰啦我我相信這是大家都認同的啦"},{"start":175.196,"end":181.798,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":193.82,"end":196.781,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":221.832,"end":224.998,"text":"所以也有委員提案將投資詐騙列為這個詐欺加重的"},{"start":229.295,"end":238.46,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":252.166,"end":281.101,"text":"各位報告投資詐騙他現在的確是在我們相關電災案件算一個最高比例的案件數那至於是不是應該要把投資犯詐騙這一個把他獨立成一個刑罰呢那從法務部的角度來看我們在打詐專法裡面已經把你的詐騙的金額超過一千萬這種高額的投資詐騙我們已經把他列為一種獨立的刑罰可處三年以上四年以下有期徒刑事實上我們在打詐專法就這一塊高額詐欺的部分我們是已經有獨立刑罰的加重處罰規定"},{"start":281.561,"end":305.449,"text":"那如果我們不要去設定一個金額勒市長您剛剛說是一千萬以上對那對於好剛好九百萬的我們就認為說這不符合這個條件我覺得也不公平但是我們在打詐專法裡面加重的要件有各種要件那投資金額超過一千萬十之其中的一種犯罪類型如果你有其他的複合式的犯罪他有可能構成加重的另外一種獨立犯罪類型"},{"start":307.65,"end":331.024,"text":"對於這種加重的情形我想請教就是說司法院所提的書面報告裡面對於草案當中將339條之四的第一項一年以上七年以下提高到三年以上十年以下提出疑慮因為不能進行檢視的審判程序都變成強制辯護的案件"},{"start":333.005,"end":358.081,"text":"認為這個勢必會造成在法院程序上增加審理期間這個更加全面延長的情況本來就非常吃緊的這個司法人力恐怕也會更加吃不消就剛剛陳儒剛剛那個那個次長您所說的部分那我想請教這個次長如何看待這個問題有沒有兼顧的方法可以來防止各位報告"},{"start":358.561,"end":362.483,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":374.309,"end":382.052,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":400.899,"end":416.392,"text":"最近因為傳出檢察官在開庭的途中突然脫掉這個法袍離開的這個消息離開那個法庭的消息後來我們從這個裁定書以及法院和檢察官本人的回覆可以初步瞭解"},{"start":416.892,"end":433.011,"text":"是因為當天這個檢察官身體不舒服要去看醫生並不希望能夠獲得正常的並且希望能夠獲得這個正常的休息時間那這一起案件啟動了這個行政調查在調查之後"},{"start":433.812,"end":447.896,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":457.878,"end":463.939,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":478.763,"end":481.365,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":502.401,"end":512.653,"text":"這個顯然除了這個案件之外還有其他的因素讓檢察官這個被感疲勞我想對於過勞司法的部分這個本委員會也有召開過公聽會的討論我們在討論打詐的同時也應該一併"},{"start":517.863,"end":542.281,"text":"這個考慮到人力的問題有健全的司法工作環境才有打擊詐騙的能力這個次長您認同嗎?所以我希望說對於我們這個檢察官的部分除了剛剛講的這個個案以外我也希望說我們對於其他的這個檢察官應該要去檢視他們在工作上的那種壓力的問題讓他們有舒緩的情況好以上謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc308d45a713eaa8598fc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fd7f6994ea375bf835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:57:19 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10:09:49","影片長度":"00:12:30","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":750,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:09:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:57:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時57分）麻煩有請次長跟署長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長。"],["黃次長謀信：是，委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情，我如果說很遺憾又再看到你，你可能會誤會，但我不是那個意思啦。那我也可以理解，現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我也不會強求。","我想先請教一下，兩位都會留任嗎？對兩位沒有不敬的意思！因為我在想說，我們今天要進行法學的探討還是政策的探討？"],["黃次長謀信：因為事務官留任是由長官決定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。","因為裡面有很多政策性的問題，其實歸咎於兩位我覺得不公平、真的不公平！我知道廉政署的同仁很認真、法務部的同仁也很認真，版本送出去，卡在行政院、在行政院睡覺，我的理解沒錯吧？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經送行政院沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題，我覺得還是要談清楚啦。有關我們的聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告，寫的只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分是不是請……"],["莊署長榮松：跟委員說明，聯合國反貪腐公約只要求我們要儘速推動揭弊者保護法，它並沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我剛說：你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告只有公部門，還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分就立法體例的話，並沒有說是哪一種部門，但是它只要求……"],["黃委員國昌：我的老天啊！不好意思，我很想客氣地講，來，我唸給你聽，第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告第106頁：「我國已研訂公私合併版《揭弊者保護法》草案，以內部人員為限，參酌外國立法例，如英國、日本、歐盟之揭弊保護制度，均針對內部人員提供保護，以符合國際立法規範。」這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容？這種白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了嘛，浪費大家的時間啦，真的是浪費大家的時間啦！我們都是念法律的人，我把國家報告拿出來，白紙黑字就寫在這裡，你如果不知道就是對你自己的業務不熟嘛，我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎？在當門面嗎？有當一回事嗎？最重要的主管官員不知道裡面寫了什麼，你們要不要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架？一般人也不會看，因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛！","我們在第二次國家報告裡面，還是公私部門都要有吹哨者保護法，剛剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛，對吧？2023年制度調整大轉彎，我剛剛聽次長講，應該沒有錯嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：剛剛是署長報告。"],["黃委員國昌：請署長。"],["莊署長榮松：對，是在20……"],["黃委員國昌：你們2023年接到誰的陳情？接到誰的陳情？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分也不是說接到誰的陳情啦……"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了！沒有人陳情的話，那你們轉彎什麼？"],["莊署長榮松：主要是那時候有一個轉折的緣由啦，當初我們在推動的時候，行政院就有成立一個推動的專案，後來再經過企業的……"],["黃委員國昌：推動專案的召集人是誰？"],["莊署長榮松：就行政院。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院是一個機關，它不會召集啊，我說實際負責的人是誰？"],["莊署長榮松：院長。"],["黃委員國昌：院長？所以是院長交辦私法人排除在外，是嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：不是！那時候跟企業界接觸之後，企業界對於這個法的推動也有一些疑慮啦……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就說誰表達了反對意見嘛？"],["莊署長榮松：那是綜合！"],["黃委員國昌：有大金控去遊說嗎？有沒有大金控去遊說？說清楚喔！有沒有金控去遊說？有沒有金控的老闆去遊說？講清楚！有還是沒有？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分的業務我沒有接觸到，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：就你沒有嘛！關於上面的人有沒有，你不知道嘛，對吧？"],["莊署長榮松：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是哪些大老闆去跟我們行政院的大官講，私部門的吹哨者保護期期以為不可啊？不要拿中小企業當藉口啦，今天把中小企業排除，你看那些金控會不會有意見？最有意見的就是他們啦！花幾千萬搞政治遊說，以為臺灣人民是笨蛋喔？在這些金控介入以前，行政院的立場從來沒改變過，大金控介入了以後，膝蓋就軟了。沒關係，我們看新的院長、看新的部長，他們的態度是什麼？那一天我質詢陳建仁的時候，他說他要再研議，我心裡就有數了，交不出來。果不其然，今天總辭嘛，今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來，這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧，對吧？","對嘛，那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零，新的院長、新的部長從頭再來。沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想，也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想，一切從頭再來。為什麼人民會憤怒？這就是人民為什麼會憤怒。","來，我講具體的例子，我回到民間社會以後，吹哨者跑來找我們台灣公益揭弊暨吹哨者保護協會，說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀，他揭發了以後，結果他的身分被洩露了，告訴被檢舉的人誰檢舉你的，還讓被檢舉人去找第三人去恐嚇他，說「你很厲害，敢吹哨」，結果呢？吹哨者會怕，我們不會怕，我們去告發。我告發完了以後，橋頭地檢署給這個洩露吹哨者身分的人緩起訴處分。","來，我不談個案，從刑事司法政策上面，這是我們現在的廉政署所樂見的結果嗎？洩漏吹哨者身分，我們現在用什麼法訴追？請教署長，就現行的法規範體系。"],["莊署長榮松：這個情形我們當然不樂見，目前如果洩密的話，我們這邊會用刑法的洩密罪來追訴。"],["黃委員國昌：是洩密罪還是違反個人資料保護法？"],["莊署長榮松：看它的犯罪態樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我就把是誰抓耙子的，我就把你的所有個資都跟被被檢舉的人講。"],["莊署長榮松：如果有牽涉到個資的話，也有可能會牽涉到個資法。"],["黃委員國昌：我把你的個人資訊告訴別人，這一定牽涉到個資法嘛，但我為什麼舉這個案子給兩位看，這個就是我們在司法實際的實踐上，為什麼有委員要提案，洩漏吹哨者的身分所應該有的刑事處罰，在吹哨者保護法要定。它的性質跟一般洩漏個資是不一樣的，署長同不同意？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分可以考量。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，實際的實踐呢？人家已經都把我的資料洩漏出去，被檢舉的人已經知道是誰檢舉他，檢舉人從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中，不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在背後捅他一刀，結果洩漏人家個資的人，我們出面告發，我們的檢察官，這還不到法院，我們的檢察官自己決定給他緩起訴處分。","政府、國家、法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限，檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺，這種權力的行使，它不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策，它也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心。這是檢察官權力的行使，我們尊重，但我必須要大聲的講我不同意。我必須要大聲的講，我不同意。如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬待洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話，我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會「勇敢出來吹哨，我們的政府會保護你，我們的國家會保護你，我們的制度會保護你」？因為根本不會，完全是謊言。","NCC洩漏吹哨者個資，也有人檢舉了，法務部開始偵辦了沒有？法務部開始偵辦了沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這部分應該臺北地檢署有分案處理。"],["黃委員國昌：確定有偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：應該有。"],["黃委員國昌：我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，確不確定這件事，我覺得他知有犯罪情事，理論上就應該要自動去偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：然後第二個，這更扯了，本院委員徐巧芯，我不知道是不是他檢舉的，他說是他檢舉的，跟我們的NCC檢舉，結果他的email被公開，結果人家追查說是徐巧芯，結果被檢舉的人很囂張，直接嗆他。他們兩個要對嗆我沒意見，兩個要對嗆我沒意見，我care的事情是，我們的政府說要保護吹哨者，我們的NCC一而再、再而三洩漏檢舉人的個資，該不該辦？該不該辦？來，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官因為告訴、告發或其他情事，甚至今天委員在委員會裡面質詢，他知有犯罪，有管轄權的檢察官就應該要主動偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：他應該要主動偵辦嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：訴訟法上有規定，他就是應該……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就看下去。我再說一次，這個名嘴、這個綠營的側翼跟徐巧芯委員兩個要怎麼互罵，我沒意見，政治立場不同，但我care的是什麼──我們的NCC在幹什麼？一而再、再而三洩漏吹哨人的資料，洩漏檢舉人的個資，那等於是昭告天下不要來找NCC檢舉、不要來找NCC投訴，因為我一定會把你的資料洩漏出去。站在政府的立場，應該容許這種事嗎？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：當然不容許。"],["黃委員國昌：切實地查辦，切實地查辦，這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 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今天總辭嗎今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧對吧對吧那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零新的院長新的部長從頭再來沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想啊也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想啊一切從頭再來啊"},{"start":392.043,"end":410.536,"text":"為什麼人民會憤怒?這就是人民為什麼會憤怒來我講具體的例子我回到民間社會了以後崔少哲跑來找我們台灣公益階屁崔少哲保護協會說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀他揭發了以後結果他的身份被洩漏了告訴檢舉人"},{"start":419.633,"end":430.576,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第"},{"start":446.823,"end":470.861,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司"},{"start":472.73,"end":478.375,"text":"三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":487.746,"end":497.175,"text":"刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":512.779,"end":528.524,"text":"吹哨者的身份所應該有的刑事處罰在吹哨者保護法要定。」他的性質跟一般洩露個資是不一樣的。署長同不同意?這部分可以考量嗎?對嘛!實際的實踐呢?人家已經都"},{"start":532.847,"end":559.808,"text":"把我的資料泄露出去檢舉的人已經知道誰檢舉他他從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在他背後捅他一刀結果泄露人家個資的人我們出面告發我們的檢察官喔這還不到法院我們的檢察官啊自己決定給他還起訴處分"},{"start":564.335,"end":591.296,"text":"政府國家法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺這種權力的行使他不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策他也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心這個是檢察官權力的行使我們尊重但我必須要大聲的講我不同意"},{"start":593.168,"end":621.905,"text":"我必須要大聲地講我不同意如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬帶寬帶洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會勇敢出來吹哨我們的政府會保護你我們的國家會保護你我們的制度會保護你因為根本不會"},{"start":622.881,"end":635.127,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1"},{"start":640.857,"end":659.186,"text":"公務員報告這部分應該台北地檢署他有分案出來確定有偵辦齁應該應該有我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了公務員報告確不確定我在我覺得他只有犯罪其實在理論上他就應該要自動然後第二個這更扯本院委員徐巧芯我不知道是不是他檢舉的啦"},{"start":661.445,"end":686.383,"text":"他說是他檢舉的然後他的email跟我們的NCC檢舉結果他的email被公開結果人家追查說是徐巧芯結果被檢舉的人很囂張了直接嗆他那他們兩個要對嗆我們意見啊兩個要對嗆我們意見我care的事情是我們的政府說保護吹哨者我們的NCC一而再再而三洩露檢舉員的個資該不該辦該不該辦"},{"start":691.374,"end":705.963,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":719.912,"end":723.974,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":745.069,"end":745.954,"text":"切實的查辦,這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。」"}]}},{"id":"152611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc302c704c8e4f6f25cec1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f3ac44c125b3f15605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:50:59 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09:57:08","影片長度":"00:06:09","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":369,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:57:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:50:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":505,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（9時51分）感謝主席！對於這個揭弊者保護法，個人遍覽所有的提案，執政黨本來就要負起非常重要的責任來提出版本。剛才黃國昌委員在這裡說兩千多天的日子過去，過去的約束跟承諾，包括在2017年我們的蔡總統也有承諾要制定這個法，到今天他也已經要卸任了，結果行政院的版本可以說到今天也無影無跡。法務部在2019年提出一個版本，結果也沒有排審，直到最近的2023年，也就是去年的10月18日，蔡部長有來說，有關這個揭弊者保護法，外界有很多不一樣的聲音，原本希望公部門的部分可以送來立法院，但是也有建議是說把私部門部分放進來，所以目前私部門的範圍縮小到上市櫃公司，相信很快就會有共識，可以送來本院審查，結果也沒有。所以我個人覺得新的內閣，當然，賴清德總統曾經說過他要強力打擊黑金犯罪，而且相信賴總統對於臺南市所有的官商勾結心知肚明，所以我個人覺得，孔子說：「無欲速，無見小利，欲速則不達，見小利則大事不成。」","關於今天這件事情，我看所有的版本裡面，尤其牽涉到私部門的部分很大，不分大小，若再要求政府跟主管機關設立其他單位，我看可能要準備很多人力，這是不是有一個適當的辦法？尤其520新的政府就要就職，過去可以等7年，雖然我個人希望在這個會期可以通過，但是我還是很慎重看待！如果今天再把中小企業163萬間加上去，你想看看，1%就好，一年如果1%、100間如果有1間出事來檢舉，就有1萬6,000件了，若是千分之一就有1,600間了！如此一來，我們還要編列多少人力來審查這些，當然不可不慎啦！","所以我在這裡還是很嚴肅地建議行政部門，從新的520開始，希望在會議中主席、委員可以同意給你們1個月的時間，比起等你們7年，我認為可以容忍給你們1個月的時間，把你們行政部門的版本送進來。對於這麼重大的案件，如果行政院沒意見、沒立場、沒態度，這對百姓不能交代！剛才黃委員也有說，很多揭弊者最後喪失生命，不要說被黑道收拾了，一個官商勾結的利益牽涉這麼大，裡面有勇氣出來說的人若不能接受政府的保護，我跟你說，包括當初尹清楓命案，前前後後十幾個人失去生命，所以這是相當重要的一件法案！","本席認為我們要來慎重考慮的重點是，揭弊者過去的身分、職權，尤其在公部門裡面，本來他是參與者、他是高級幹部，結果因為利益衝突或是知道東窗事發，最後他轉型成揭弊者的時候，這點我也希望大家要認真思考，他本來是參與者，所以在立法的過程中，針對這些人的保護程度和其他真真正正是對抗黑金、對抗勾結而勇敢出來揭弊的人，這要有一個區分和差別。","所以本席建議主席在討論的過程中給行政部門1個月的時間，因為新的行政院長還沒上任，這個信息已經7年了，你們也籌備這麼久了，一直沒有拿出來！我相信剛才透過你們的報告顯示，其實內部是有在研議的，所以面對新的國會、新的民意、新的期待，行政部門應該速速、不要再延宕了！你們應該快速在1個月的時間把行政部門的版本送至本會，大家併案來審查，我相信萬事可以求齊全！以上，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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10:48:55","影片長度":"00:08:23","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":503,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:48:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:40:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時40分）首先請國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員早。"],["陳委員超明：副主委好。剛剛邱委員談到地方的創生，他講了一句話，我非常認同，雖然我們不屬於同一個黨派。我從頭到尾就跟你們講，地方創生不能用放煙火秀式的，看起來很漂亮，開個咖啡館、大家去剪綵，就非常高興。結果你去看那些店，大概剩下不到一半的店還在開，因為做生意一定要有商機在，才有辦法繼續維持下去。","我一直強調，國發會的地方創生，當然資源是在各部會，但是我只拜託你國發會，如果要作地方創生，當初地方提出來，一定要做好的規劃、選擇好的地點。剛剛邱委員跟我們都感覺到，你們都注重六都，但是非六都的地方要特別注重啊！","我有問過龔主委，希望你們要編列地方創生的規劃報告經費，一定要來補助，但是現在到底有沒有列進去？不然國發會跟著人家下去做地方創生，你們很沒有面子，說要錢沒有錢，只能表示意見。其實你們都是人才，我都非常的重視，尤其你們負責地方創生這幾個人真的很努力，但是我去看地方創生，不是國發會指導，你們都站在旁邊，害我看到很難過。所以要把經費編出來，規劃報告的經費編出來，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，其實在早一些年的確是各部會編列，可是現在我們本會自己已經有編列預算執行。"],["陳委員超明：一定要做好。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對、對。"],["陳委員超明：而且要做得實際，要了解地方的觀點。我跟你們去過好幾次，其實我們欽佩你們，但是你們去到那裡要錢沒錢，好像媳婦一樣站在旁邊，國發會是鼎鼎的大會。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們負責的是黃處長，他可以跟委員說明，而且他時常跑地方，他對地方的了解其實還蠻多的。"],["陳委員超明：他真的有下鄉了解，而且他真的腳踏實地，我很少認同這樣的官員。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，其實委員的建議，我們有在研究。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？"],["黃處長文彥：並不是說……"],["陳委員超明：什麼在研究？剛剛副主委說有編列預算了，你還跟我講在研究。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，這分兩個部分，我們是國發會……"],["陳委員超明：我講規劃報告。"],["黃處長文彥：對，規劃費的部分，我們現在正在研究做的方式。看是由縣政府還是由我們這邊來統籌，我們正在研究中。"],["陳委員超明：沒有、沒有、沒有，副主委，這個問題大條了，你剛剛說編列預算了，現在又說在研究規劃報告。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，剛剛副主委的意思是地方創生統籌的經費已經由國發會這邊統籌編列了。"],["陳委員超明：不是，我一直強調，你找的地區，財源並不是很充足，你一定要有規劃報告，譬如縣政府、鄉公所跟你搭配，或哪個單位搭配多少，這樣做出來才會真啦！說到這就會得罪人，我實在不想講，我了解內幕嘛。"],["黃處長文彥：報告委員，委員的建議，其實我們正在研究當中。"],["陳委員超明：跟你們講過好幾遍了。"],["黃處長文彥：我們很重視委員的建議，現在正在研究。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，下次我在地方創生的時候去看，我覺得看有效了，實際有功能，實際給地方帶來產業的發展，要規劃報告，你一定要給那些財政比較困難的鄉鎮。這點拜託一下，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["陳委員超明：不要再這樣，否則你們會一直站在旁邊，統籌經費還是要看人家的臉色，這個報告做出來，你就下指示說這個要做了，否則沒有人要聽。我弄很久了，怎麼會不知道？我推動幾個創生計畫，然後觀光再進去，但是你們規劃報告要寫好，規劃的經費不用花多少錢就可以做出很好的成果，用頭腦想一想，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["黃處長文彥：好。"],["陳委員超明：再來，今天討論到離島建設條例。離島受到地理位置、資源的分配，我們真的要全力支持。但是我在其中看到一點，關於無自來水地區，我就特別把資料調出來，全國自來水的普及率95.67%，離島地區是94.55%，馬祖地區是86.87%，澎湖地區是92.91%。我想到苗栗縣就覺得我很可憐，我全力的爭取，民國七十幾年以來，在我當立委的時候，大概從65%逐步的推動，苗栗縣的自來水普及率目前達到87.23%，但是跟全國普及率95.67%還差了一大截。苗栗可憐在哪裡？鯉魚潭水庫都供給臺中在用，包括自來水和工業用水；永和山水庫是供給新竹科學園區，現在我們地方產業慢慢發展，已經回來，但是自來水普及率很低。現在都在偏遠地區，你們單戶成本要60萬元以下才能送去評比。","我只要求一點，請問水利署的黃副署長，你常常陪我下去，我只要問一件事情，也請教國發會，如果水利署送到偏遠地區無自來水的地區，現在單戶成本應該要提到80萬元到90萬元，就要納入核給。苗栗有四個水庫，結果我們的自來水普及率比別人低，害我每次選舉都被修理。黃副署長你是苗栗人，我跟你講，你讓我選舉很痛苦啊！"],["黃副署長宏莆：有啦，委員的建議，我們這一次在報五期計畫的時候，就針對比較特殊的，尤其像苗栗的偏遠地區，而且水庫比較多的，在周邊區域我們都有提高經費，目前正在做計畫呈報，正在討論。我想……"],["陳委員超明：單戶成本，你們有沒有那個地區不要60萬元？"],["黃副署長宏莆：有，有比較提高了，已經提高了。"],["陳委員超明：如果提高到80萬元就給他們過，或者100萬元也給他們過。"],["黃副署長宏莆：是、是，額度我們可能……"],["陳委員超明：我為什麼會再問這個問題？因為自來水公司每次提無自來水地區經費，要送到你們國發會，國發會好像不怎麼同意？你們這些都市人都不知道我們鄉下人，留著好山好水，水的供給都是在偏遠地區，但你們沒有特別照顧，只照顧都市人！這樣怎麼會合理，怎麼對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["陳委員超明：那就改為100萬元！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：OK。"],["陳委員超明：評比100萬元，你就把它送進去，剩下沒有多少了，克盡其功！大膽的把經費補助下來，國發會不要再擋了！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實沒有，我們絕對沒有擋，我們尊重主管部會的意見，而且我們會儘速審議。"],["陳委員超明：黃副署長，還有地方創生很重要，有自來水表示有進步的地方，沒有自來水就沒有進步的地方。幫我加油啊，我會好好盯著，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林德福委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.40221875,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.599718750000001,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.485343750000002,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.442843750000002,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.45534375,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.328468750000003,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.01534375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.79159375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.91784375,"end":25.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.81596875,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.16596875,"end":29.680343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.23721875,"end":31.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.87409375,"end":35.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.43034375,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.10846875,"end":45.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.774718750000005,"end":49.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.89659375,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.735968750000005,"end":56.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.338468750000004,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.924718750000004,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.20284375000001,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.57721875,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.97346875000001,"end":73.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.82534375,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.81659375000001,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.96721875,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.77909375,"end":104.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.84159375,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.57471875,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.61659375,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.95159375,"end":131.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.21284375000002,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.07221875000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.51409375,"end":149.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.84721875,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.02784375000002,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.33971875,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.16534375,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.31659375,"end":172.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.35034375,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.62846875000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.42534375000002,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.03284375,"end":177.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.15096875,"end":177.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.20159375,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.57284375,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.70784375000002,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.79221875000002,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.87159375000002,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.04409375,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.95096875000002,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.28346875000003,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.88971875000001,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.57159375,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.02721875,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.12846875000002,"end":213.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.47846875000002,"end":214.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.78221875000003,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.23784375000002,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.05159375000002,"end":227.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.58596875,"end":229.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.76721875,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.29846875,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.29784375000003,"end":247.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.34846875000002,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.00909375,"end":250.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.40534375000001,"end":251.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.58659375000002,"end":255.65346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.37909375000004,"end":265.08659375},{"speaker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.803,"end":238.725,"text":"我們很重視委員的建議,我們正在研究"},{"start":257.252,"end":268.586,"text":"案,不然你常常站在旁邊啦,你統籌經費還是要看人家的臉色,這個報告做出來你就下指示說這個要做啦,沒有沒有人要聽,我無法顧啊,我怎麼不知道。"},{"start":273.134,"end":289.695,"text":"我推動了幾個參與生,然後光光的在經濟裡面,但是規劃報告要寫好,規劃的經費請你不用花多少錢就能做得好。用頭腦想一想就好了好不好。再來今天討論到離島建設條例,"},{"start":292.963,"end":308.208,"text":"案、離島的收到地理位置資源的分配,我們真的要全力支持。但是裡面我又看到一點,那個無自來水基地區我就特別把它調出來。全國自來水的普及率95.67%"},{"start":311.169,"end":325.599,"text":"案。」那離島地區是94.55、馬祖地區是86.87、澎湖地區是92.91。那我想到苗栗縣我就覺得我很可憐,我全力的爭取。"},{"start":326.46,"end":353.268,"text":"案、七十幾年來在我當立委的時候大概從65%我就一直步的推動苗栗新的自來水現在目前達到87.23%但是跟全國的普及率95.6G還差了一大截苗栗可憐在哪裡離一潭水庫都供給給台中再用了自來水、工業用水"},{"start":354.068,"end":381.664,"text":"明德水庫以前是供給那個不是永和水庫是供給新竹科學園區現在我們地方產業已經慢慢發達已經回來但是普及率很低啊但是現在都在邊緣的地區啊你們當務成本要60萬以下才能送得進去去評評那我只要你一點那個隨意時的防護市長"},{"start":382.825,"end":383.165,"text":"案件事項"},{"start":406.363,"end":434.808,"text":"結果我們普及率特別低害我們每次選舉都被修理黃仁你是苗栗人我跟你講你知道我選舉很痛苦啊有啦委員的建議我們這一次在報五期計畫的時候就針對比較特殊尤其像苗栗這個比較偏遠地區而且水庫比較多的在周邊的區域的部分我們這個經費都有提高那目前正在做計畫的呈報正在討論單戶成本你們有沒有那個地區不要60萬啊"},{"start":436.108,"end":460.043,"text":"有,有比較提高了,對,已經提高了。提高如果到八十萬就給他們扣了一百萬給他們做。那我為什麼會再問這個問題?因為自來水公司每次要提的自來水、無自來水地區的那個經費的時候要送到你們國外會。國外會好像不怎麼同意捏。你們這裡有多少人都不知道我們整個人留著好山好水。"},{"start":461.201,"end":464.525,"text":"案。 bicycliffe等18人擬具"},{"start":480.183,"end":480.203,"text":"案。」"}]}},{"id":"152608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30acfc1f25e64dd7edfe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0fc6ac7d3ce2a727f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:39:04 - 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我想請教一下 那我們駐法代表處有通報這個法國的國安或者是警方單位說有這樣的情勢嗎?"},{"start":124.741,"end":151.848,"text":"其實從通案來講對於中國的長臂管轄他所做的這些侵害其他國家主權迫害人民自由的一項都是我們外管委員會注意受到的情資有傳遞給我們的當地的這個不管是國安或者是警方來表達我們對這些相關的管道都是非常暢通的互相聯繫這都是有的機制有把這樣的相關訊息給他們那會有什麼因應的作為嗎"},{"start":153.543,"end":179.577,"text":"我們想強調的一點就是剛剛其實委員關切的這個重點其實中國的統戰現在真的是水淹瀉地的這個無所不在包羅萬象所以它不是傳統的所謂公眾外銷或者只是國際宣傳它還包括剛剛我們國安局副長也特別提到很多特務還有情報收集還有很多這種所謂迫害人群這種行動而且無所不在所以的確對我們很多的"},{"start":180.177,"end":186.098,"text":"在我們設置的兩個中文學校的附近有沒有所謂的海外的秘密警察正在直接甚至是間接的傷害到有我的人身安全"},{"start":210.874,"end":232.331,"text":"是,跟委員報告,我們是注意到當地有兩個這樣的叫警察服務站,但是他們如果說他們在當地有對於說...抱歉,我再重新講一次,就是說只是監控嗎?還是有直接可能影響到他的人身安全?目前還沒有接到僑胞有對人身安全方面有提出來這樣子的一個報告。"},{"start":233.393,"end":253.399,"text":"因為我們不希望說有一些不僅是我國的僑報那可能是不管是支持藏獨還是疆獨等等有些時候在那個地方附近來去做交流的時候那我們擔心中方的一些秘密警察甚至會採取更激進的做法"},{"start":254.019,"end":278.017,"text":"所以我一直在強調說有沒有把相關的情資我們自己的國安局調查人員查查的這些情資做了有效率的分享我們在那邊沒有執法權嘛但是法國有有沒有把這些訊息來去跟他們分享我一直講這是很重要的不是管道暢通暢通如果不溝通的話那暢通有什麼意義就是這些東西我們都要做好預備跟準備那這個"},{"start":279.358,"end":298.804,"text":"北朝鮮他們對於綁架這些東西都已經有前例了那中國的這些秘密警察有些你看到你可能知道有海外警察服務在有些根本就你還沒有知道的你沒有被察覺到的那直接進行這種綁架的動作都有可能過去也有一些前例至少朝鮮都有"},{"start":299.484,"end":301.965,"text":"接下來想要請教一下國安局"},{"start":335.722,"end":339.225,"text":"副院長好副院長我想最近中資的企業"},{"start":340.64,"end":346.721,"text":"在北海道等地或其他日本本島有很多中方在購買大量的土地房地產特別離他們自衛隊越接近的地方購置的狀況越多"},{"start":370.706,"end":372.488,"text":"中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為．並備質詢。．並備質詢。．並備質詢。"},{"start":385.723,"end":385.843,"text":"副局長"},{"start":412.287,"end":425.582,"text":"日本政府徹查已經掌握超過700件類似的土地案件也就是說他們徹查編碼知道說哪個地方哪一個地點哪一些人去構置這些土地影響到國家安全台灣有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":428.924,"end":441.393,"text":"對於大陸人士在台灣購買土地我們也有很嚴格的限制不管是他的身份、他的使用以及在範圍我們也是有這樣的機制"},{"start":457.944,"end":463.21,"text":"我們有專案在關注的確有一些大陸人士他用第三國籍的身份來不管來台用商務的行為或是各方面的這個我們有在關注"},{"start":479.967,"end":493.536,"text":"我希望是我們也不只針對一個國家境外勢力那透過國內或者是第三國或者是在地協力者等等的所以說以各個敏感的機敏的基地或者是政府機關為中心"},{"start":495.137,"end":516.848,"text":"大概是幾公里平方公里之內我們就必須要有類似的這些做法那就是對視那才能夠去追引到人的部分所以我們不因為如果你一個一個人去找的話你是找不到的但是針對土地在離重要的基民的基地或者是堡壘或者是我國的重要的國家安全機關軍事安全機關"},{"start":517.888,"end":536.12,"text":"我們必須要有完整的整理出來有哪些嫌疑的這些東西把數位化數據化然後做一些防範因為在美國總統是可以直接下令他們有這個行政命令但是在我國我們沒有這麼大的這種權力可以及時的做管制所以更需要"},{"start":537.113,"end":537.573,"text":"對,會管制公告"}]}},{"id":"152607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30cb5bad457d2a1302be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0fc7ebe4e63c7622145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:38:43 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10:47:58","影片長度":"00:09:15","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-12"},"duration":555,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:47:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:38:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時38分）謝謝主席，我們請次長。"],["主席：有請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。部長呢？"],["阮次長清華：因為今天是陳院長的最後一次院會，所以部長去參加院會。"],["李委員坤城：本來有很多問題要請教部長……"],["阮次長清華：他等一下會過來。"],["李委員坤城：部長和次長都留任了啊？"],["阮次長清華：部長等一下就會回來，那邊結束以後，他就會過來。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我先請教一下有關稅收的問題。有一則報導的標題是「證交稅收寫同期新高」，根據蔡英文總統任內最後一個賦稅收入月報，不只是證交稅，包含綜所稅、證交稅、貨物稅、土增稅等等，都創下同期新高，反映蔡總統執政8年來經濟成長的結果，我覺得是一個非常完美的ending。","我們的部長和次長也都會繼續留下來，請教一下，其實本席剛上任的時候，你們也有來跟我做過說明，就是我們的賦稅都超收，財政部在113年的賦稅收入編列有特別修正參考的因素，把以往的經濟成長率改成其他指數，希望能讓預算數和實際徵收數相吻合，以不超過5%為目標。我們每年賦稅都超收，這當然是好事，代表臺灣的經濟成長，所以稅收增加，但是對財政單位來講，我們認為你們的預估應該還要再更準確一點，因為如果預估再準確一點的話，我們在編預算的時候就可以掌握大概收多少錢、做多少事情。這幾年看起來的結果是你們都比預估的還要再少一點、你們的心態都比較偏保守，當然，最後稅收是增加了，但是相對應的，我們希望如果你們能預估得比較準，那麼多出來的那些預算其實還可以用來做更多的事情。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員指教。我完全贊同委員的意見，就是希望我們的預算編列能夠更精準。當然，現在從1月到4月看起來，像我們的營業稅、證交稅或者是綜所稅的確是比原來的預算數要多，但是大家也知道，5月份是結算申報期，我們通常在估稅收的成長情形就是看5月份的結算申報，另外一個是9月份的暫繳申報，所以大概5月份結束以後，我們就知道那個方向和趨勢。當然，如果可以的話，我們當然是希望稅收能夠增加，但是也要合理。因為上次很多委員都有關切這個問題，所以我們就成立了一個稅收估測小組，也委外研究，希望能夠做出一個估測模型，希望未來在預算編列上能夠更加精準。"],["李委員坤城：對呀！你們上次有跟我提到你們會重做一個模型出來，你們那時的稅收預估指標，在綜合所得稅的部分是把本來的經濟成長率改成基本工資調整、政策利率調升；營業稅的部分是把經濟成長率改成民間消費成長率；證券交易稅方面雖然維持日均成交值，但是選擇區間不同；營利事業所得稅則是把經濟成長率改成出口、工業生產指數。你們提供的資料大概是這樣。"],["阮次長清華：這是其中一部分。"],["李委員坤城：過去都是從經濟成長率這個比較粗略的數字來估。"],["阮次長清華：對、對。"],["李委員坤城：現在改成這樣子。這是去年改，還是今年改？"],["阮次長清華：是去年的時候，因為那時的實徵數比預算數多很多，所以我們就開始認真在檢討這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：所以理論上去年就改成這個模型？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以今年在估的時候應該會比較準一點嘛！"],["阮次長清華：這個有時候老實講，我跟委員報告，其實我們的政經變動真的很快，比如說像去年，我們營所稅和綜合所得稅其實稅基是去年的，去年上市（櫃）的獲利其實是衰退27%，所以我們那時候想說今年的稅收可能會稍微少一點，綜所稅也會有類似的狀況，因為受配的股利也少了，所以可能會減少，但問題是今年經濟成長率目前的預估是3.43%，還可能再往上修，所以變成今年像營業稅或者是證交稅，現在股市好到不行，還有像剛才提到的……"],["李委員坤城：這個你們都沒有預期到嗎？"],["阮次長清華：有預期，但是沒想到那麼好，好到……"],["李委員坤城：所以你們也沒預期到今年第1季的經濟成長率會這麼高？"],["阮次長清華：好到會超過2萬1,000點。我是覺得我們以前最高也不過1萬8,000點，那個時候能夠回到1萬8,000點已經非常不錯了，但是它繼續往上……"],["李委員坤城：這就是民進黨執政的成績啊！"],["阮次長清華：這個很好，但我們希望估得更準。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！執政好、經濟成長率高、稅收增加，這當然是我們執政的成績，但是另外一部分，你們預估的指標要算得準一點。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：你剛剛有提到5、6月，我們現在在報稅嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：報稅之後，申報的結果大概會決定今年收入大概的情況，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：大致的趨勢可以掌握。"],["李委員坤城：現在是5月中，現在報稅的情況怎樣？"],["阮次長清華：目前報稅的狀況，到上禮拜五的資料，大概280萬戶。"],["李委員坤城：占多少？"],["阮次長清華：大概一半。"],["李委員坤城：一半也是差不多啊！"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，依照我們的習慣，高所得的都擠在最後幾天，所以前面申報的有很多是退稅的，當然也有繳稅的，但是高所得大部分都集中在後面，所以我們要看到最後面才會比較清楚。"],["李委員坤城：5月報稅，數字哪時候會出來？"],["阮次長清華：最慢大概6月，因為有一個整理期，例如5月31日申報，稅收不會那麼快進來，大概六月十幾號，上旬、中旬那時候就會確定了。"],["李委員坤城：你看前4個月有關營業稅、證所稅、土增稅都增加，預期稅收也會增加才對啊！"],["阮次長清華：希望啦，我沒辦法肯定，因為最大宗的還沒出來，現在這邊講的都是比較小型的。"],["李委員坤城：按照前4個月的年增率，次長有沒有信心今年的賦稅收入超過10%？"],["阮次長清華：我通常不太講這個，因為會增加自然就會增加，不是用信心就會增加，它有那些……"],["李委員坤城：次長，我的意思是我們看數字，也不是說有沒有信心，我是說按照1至4月的稅收來看，因為當初你跟我們講稅收的估算不要超過5%的上限。"],["阮次長清華：是，委員的指教真的非常好，我們希望朝這個方向走。"],["李委員坤城：今年的稅收又增加了，可能最後又會超收10%以上。"],["阮次長清華：現在真的不確定，但是我們再觀察。"],["李委員坤城：稅收增加是好事，我認為對國家整體來講是好事，但是對財政部來講，估算預算數準確也很重要，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：是，我們來努力，謝謝委員指教。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員質詢。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.00909375,"end":6.7809687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":26.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.39034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.02284375,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.402218750000003,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.313468750000002,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.35909375,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.37596875,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.494093750000005,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.62909375,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.135343750000004,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.962218750000005,"end":35.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.89034375,"end":35.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.90721875,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.72534375,"end"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完全贊同委員的意見 希望我們的預算的編列能夠更精準"},{"start":167.676,"end":181.081,"text":"當然現在從1月到4月看起來就是說像我們的營業稅或者是證交稅或者是綜合稅的確是比原來的預算稅要多但是現在大家知道現在5月份是這個結算申報期"},{"start":182.341,"end":211.407,"text":"我們通常在估預算就稅收的這個成長的情形大概就看5月份的結算申報還有另外一個是9月份的站腳申報所以我們在5月份看結束結束以後大概知道那個方向那個趨勢當然我們當然希望稅稅收當然就是說如果可以的話當然就能夠增加但是也要也要也要合理所以我們也上一次很多委員都有關切這個問題所以我們就成立一個稅收估測小組"},{"start":212.848,"end":213.308,"text":"﹑李坤城委員"},{"start":230.999,"end":246.713,"text":"除了這個本來的經濟成長率把它改成這個基本工資調整還有政策利率調升嘛然後營業稅這部分呢這個經濟成長率呢也這個改成這個民間消費成長率然後在證券交易稅這方面呢"},{"start":247.333,"end":248.434,"text":"昨年改還是今年改?"},{"start":269.947,"end":270.407,"text":"昨年改成這個模型﹖"},{"start":287.843,"end":306.369,"text":"所以說你今年再估的時候應該會比較準一點嗎?這個有時候老實講我跟委員報告齁其實我們的政經的變動真的很快我們本來預期是比如說像去年我們銀索稅跟中央索稅其實是用去年的稅基是去年的"},{"start":306.949,"end":322.099,"text":"那去年的上市櫃其實它的獲利其實是衰退27%的所以我們那時候想說可能今年的稅收就可能會稍微有一點稍微小一點稍微少一點"},{"start":322.679,"end":346.424,"text":"那中手稅有類似的狀況因為它受配的股列少了所以可能會減少但是問題是今年的經濟成長率目前的預估是3.43還可能再往上修所以變成就是說今年的像營業稅或者是證交稅像股市好的不行還有像剛才提到的這個你們都沒有預期到嗎"},{"start":348.544,"end":351.286,"text":"所以你們也沒預期到說今年第一屆經濟成長會這麼高?這就是民進黨執政的成績啊?"},{"start":372.259,"end":388.788,"text":"對啦就是說執政好那我們經濟成長率高稅收增加這當然是我們執政成績但是另外一部分就是說你們估啦你們這個預估的指標齁這個要算得準一點那所以說齁你剛有提到說齁這個五六月的我們現在是在報稅"},{"start":390.069,"end":392.59,"text":"大致的趨勢可以掌握了目前報稅大概是到上禮拜五了,我沒有最新的,大概280萬戶"},{"start":415.82,"end":417.241,"text":"五月份申報報稅數字哪時候會出來?"},{"start":446.053,"end":473.089,"text":"最慢大概6月因為他還有一個整理期整理期比如5月底我5月31日申報那稅稅不會那麼快進來所以他會到6月大概6月10幾號6月上旬中旬那時候就會確定了那所以你看我們剛才所有的這一個這個前4個月齁這個有關於說營業稅啦鎮守稅啦這個土增稅什麼都增加啦那預期啦預期稅收也會增加才對啊"},{"start":474.69,"end":477.393,"text":"按照前四個月的年增率,那次長有沒有信心今年的賦稅會"},{"start":492.63,"end":517.747,"text":"這個收入要超過這個百分之十我覺得 通常我不太講這個啦 因為為什麼 因為會增加他就自然會增加不是用信心就他會增加他自然 他有那個 我的意思是說我們是看數字啦 當然也不是說有沒有信心啦 我的意思是說你按照這個前一季 這個一到四個月的這個稅收來看 那我們是希望說因為你當初跟我們講就是說 你們這個"},{"start":519.968,"end":536.724,"text":"稅收的估算也不要超過百分之五為一個上限我來講說今年稅收又增加了可能最後又會超收百分之十以上真的現在不確定但是我們在觀察稅收增加是好事我認為對國家整體來講是好事但是對財政部來講"},{"start":546.175,"end":552.48,"text":"姑算運輸,這個運算數齁,準確也很重要啦好不好是我們來努力,謝謝委員指導"}]}},{"id":"152606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc304085995fa78ab29c974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f45ac82267c343f1a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:30:12 - 10:40:25","影片長度":"00:10:13","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":613,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:40:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:30:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時30分）有請高副主委。"],["主席：再請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：缺工的問題很嚴重，其他鄰國包括日本跟韓國，他們都充分利用中高齡的就業人口，你看我們中高齡的勞參率比起南韓、新加坡、日本是差了很多，特別是65歲以上只有9.2%，南韓已經高了我們4倍，新加坡是我們的接近4倍，日本也是我們的快3倍。現在65歲以上的人口，大家體力各方面條件都還不錯，他們也有意願工作，只是說誘因不夠，怎麼樣提供一個好的職場環境，讓高齡的勞動參與率能夠提高，國發會應該想一點辦法。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我同意委員的看法，我們之前在中小企業發展條例裡面，增訂加薪加成抵稅其實也是措施之一，但的確還是要有更多的作法。"],["邱委員志偉：這個可能誘因不夠，你要想一些對策、作法，然後教各部會去執行，或者跨部會來協調，包括財政部從租稅的優惠著手，如果有些企業要聘用這些中高齡就業者，租稅也可以有一些減免，或者提供更好的誘因，這是國發會要整合勞動部、財政部等部會研議的。副主委，你也是續任嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：520之後這也是你督導的業務嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：目前人力處不是我督導的，當然520以後也許會重新分工啦！"],["邱委員志偉：對，你們可能要跟新主委再建議一下，你看勞動參與率不管是65歲以上、60到64歲或55到59歲，我們都比其他鄰國低很多，這代表沒有充分利用。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以一定是有些政策沒有到位，或者規劃不完整，這需要跨部會包括經濟部、財政部、勞動部共同研商解決，是不是可以儘快召開會議？基本上這不會受520的影響吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，目前其實在行政院有一個高齡就業白皮書。"],["邱委員志偉：白皮書要去落實啊！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，就是有衛福部在主責，的確像委員說的，其實如果我們要充裕臺灣的人力，解決缺工的問題，中高齡勞參率的提升是真的蠻重要的。"],["邱委員志偉：我也知道，但是你們要有作法。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，所以委員的意見我會轉知給我們新任的主委，這一塊我們也會召集各部會，看看有沒有一些創新的作法可以提出。"],["邱委員志偉：五大信賴產業你知道是哪五大嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：五大信賴產業，我當然知道。"],["邱委員志偉：針對五大信賴產業怎麼樣去推動、怎麼去落實、去協助發展，包括資安、人工智慧、半導體、軍工等等，要有詳細的計畫來推動，這也是跨部會的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外就是京元電，我考慮到的問題就是地緣政治的問題，地緣政治對台商供應鏈這個壓力，特別是中國的因素，很多在中國投資的必須要重新思考他投資的目標國，很多是新南向政策，甚至有些是回國投資，包括京元電出售中國廠，擴大在臺的資本支出，以前我們有一個專法，但專法已經到期了。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那有沒有可能再重新啟動另外一波，讓境外資金能夠匯回，在臺灣擴大投資，就是原本在中國投資的台商，第二波想要回來擴大資本投資的，有沒有可能重新啟動專法，或者用更便捷的稅制，讓他們可以達到這個目標，可以很順利、很快的讓他們在臺的投資迅速到位？副主委，您的看法如何？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想境外資金回流這部分，因為現在國內超額儲蓄每年有3兆，我們可能要考慮到資金、游資氾濫這個問題，可能要尋求一些解決對策以後……"],["邱委員志偉：要投入公建啊！就是……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我們現在……"],["邱委員志偉：我們很多的壽險業，有那麼多的游資都集中在壽險業，我一而再再而三的強調，要把壽險的這些游資導入公共建設，國家就不用出那麼多錢。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，我們其實有召開過跨部會會議，針對怎麼樣把游資導入一些公建甚至社宅，大概有初步研議的方向。"],["邱委員志偉：要具體去落實，就是說速度太慢，早就知道有國內游資太多、超額儲蓄過多的問題，怎麼樣去運用這些超額儲蓄，過去從2019到2021年的境外資金匯回專法已經到期，當時的效果非常好，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：他們的錢回來不是游資，他們回來是要擴大對臺灣的投資，把在海外、在中國的投資匯回臺灣，在臺灣落地生根、茁壯。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告……"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個跟你的游資不太一樣。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，其實我們有歡迎台商回臺投資的三大法案，那部分都是經濟部在執行的，都有協助台商回臺的相關措施，包括在……"],["邱委員志偉：你認為有沒有必要再啟動專法？專法的條件可以不要完全copy第一次。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，就是我們要看看，我們協助這些廠商進行供應鏈的重組，包括回來臺灣或是在東南亞擴大產能，因為現在有台商回臺三法，我覺得我們也許可以在那個地方更多著墨一些。"],["邱委員志偉：重新再思考啟動的可能性，或者是精簡版，或是針對特定產業，配合五大信賴產業，如果五大信賴產業在國外、在中國投資，願意回來的話，你應該有一個專法，比較精簡版的專法，特別針對五大信賴產業，可以嗎？這個很重要。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想委員的建議我們可以來研議。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，青年培力工作站你們有編地方創生4年60億的預算，能夠在5年之內推動400項地方創生，讓在地青年可以留鄉或返鄉推動地方創生，目前的績效怎麼樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：可不可以請我們黃處長來說明一下？"],["邱委員志偉：處長，你說明一下。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，我們是希望在全臺灣各地都能有青年培力工作站，包括離島、偏鄉，這個原因呢……"],["邱委員志偉：你的目標太過於抽象了，全島各地，你要各鄉啊！要投入多少人力、多少資源，都要很明確，每一個鄉有每一個鄉的特色，比如高雄市有38區，每一個區有每一個區的特色，你們怎麼去發展、怎麼去導引，當然是全國都要有培力站，但是你要有明確的工作目標，不能太抽象。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，因為青年培力工作站才剛開始兩、三年，我們目前的作法是先以各縣市均衡發展為主，委員的建議……"],["邱委員志偉：所以是各縣市在主導，不是你們主導？"],["黃處長文彥：對。"],["邱委員志偉：各縣市會報計畫上來，是你們在核定。"],["黃處長文彥：是我們在審查。"],["邱委員志偉：那核定的過程中能夠考慮到多一點在中南部地區或東部地區。"],["黃處長文彥：現在中南部地區非常多，跟委員報告。"],["邱委員志偉：特別是高雄市也有分都會區跟非都會區。"],["黃處長文彥：是。"],["邱委員志偉：臺南市也有，已經縣市合併，所以你要多一點資源放在地方創生的非都會區，您瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["黃處長文彥：這也是我們的目標。"],["邱委員志偉：對，但是我檢視一下，我的選區是非都會區，培力站的部分你們核定的相關計畫是比較少的。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，除了青年培力工作站之外，其實還有另外一個創生計畫的部分，在非都會區也非常多。"],["邱委員志偉：好，把這個計畫整理一下，我的選區是在北高雄，有8個區，你們青年培力工作站設了幾站、投入多少資源，然後在我的選區地方創生相關的執行狀況，你能不能做一個整理？"],["黃處長文彥：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你要把經費、把錢花在刀口上。"],["黃處長文彥：是。"],["邱委員志偉：花在需求強度最高的地方，而不是花在都會區。都會區還好，但是非都會區比較欠缺，楊瓊瓔委員的也是非都會區。"],["黃處長文彥：我們也會鼓勵非都會區的儘量……"],["邱委員志偉：陳超明委員的也是非都會區，他們兩位也要多重視，我的要特別重視。"],["黃處長文彥：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":3.5578437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.852218750000002,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.309718750000002,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.92534375,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.502218750000004,"end":36.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.73846875,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.188468750000006,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.43284375,"end":54.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.36409375,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.110343750000006,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.89471875,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.23909375000001,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.29346875,"end":75.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.96846875,"end":77.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.21284375,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.31784375000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.41409375,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.42221875,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.41284375000001,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.24784375,"end":104.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.95159375,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.83284375000001,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.73721875000001,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.36971875,"end":132.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.03971875000002,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.75596875000002,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.06659375,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.08346875,"end":150.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.87659375,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.49221875,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.87159375000002,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.52034375000002,"end":164.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.78159375,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.49409375000002,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.38409375,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.27846875,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.04971875,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.92721875,"end":198.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.89971875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.03471875000002,"end":193.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.41846875000002,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.15596875,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.16846875000002,"end":207.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.85096875000002,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.47909375,"end":211.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.28471875000002,"end":212.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.30159375000002,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.95971875,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.68534375000002,"end":215.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.59659375,"end":242.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.78971875000002,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.65409375000002,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.68784375,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.17721875,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.18909375,"end":231.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.06034375000002,"end":244.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.14034375000003,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.72971875000002,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.02909375000002,"end":256.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.71659375,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.96096875,"end":265.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.62659375000004,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.26346875,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.71346875,"end":305.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.21096875,"end":316.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.05784375,"end":314.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.69909375000003,"end":327.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.50034375,"end":319.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.545343750000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只有9.2,南韓已經高了我們的4倍,新加坡是我們接近4倍,日本也是我們的大概3倍多。那我們怎麼樣去,現在65歲以上,大家體力各方面的條件都還不錯,對不對?他們也有意願"},{"start":75.36,"end":79.006,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第13條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":88.922,"end":115.298,"text":"我同意那個委員的看法我想我們之前在那個中小企業那個條例裡面其實我們有加薪可以那個加成底稅那個其實也是措施之一啦那的確還是要有更多的做法這個可能誘因不夠你要想一些對策做法然後叫各部會去執行嘛或者跨部會來協調包括財政部從輸出的優惠不過有些企業聘用這些中高齡就業者"},{"start":116.238,"end":121.546,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":134.803,"end":152.788,"text":"目前的例數不是我督導的,那當然就是520以後也許會重新分工。對,你們可能要跟新主委再建議一下,這個你看這個勞動商業率不管是65歲以上60到64、15到19,我們都比其他鄰國都還低很多,所以這個代表沒有充分利用。"},{"start":153.49,"end":153.51,"text":"案。"},{"start":171.794,"end":178.836,"text":"目前在行政院有高齡就業白皮書,有衛福部在主責,像委員說的,如果我們要衝遇台灣人力缺工的問題的話,中高齡就業勞參率的提升真的是蠻重要的。"},{"start":194.099,"end":209.327,"text":"所以我想委員的意見我想我會轉資給我們新任的主委那我們這一塊我們也是就是看看我們看看召集各部會看看有沒有一些創新的做法另外五大現在產業你知道是哪五大嗎"},{"start":210.523,"end":237.596,"text":"五大信賴產業,是的。您知道嗎?我當然知道。我當然知道。對,針對五大信賴產業怎麼樣去推動,怎麼去落實,去協助五大信賴產業的發展,或是人工智慧、半導體、天工,等等,你都要有詳細的計畫來推動,這也是跨部會的。另外晶圓店,我考慮到這個問題就是地緣政治的問題,"},{"start":238.897,"end":238.917,"text":"案 。"},{"start":256.764,"end":279.234,"text":"而擴大在台的資本支出。」像這樣以前我們有一個專法對不對那專法已經到期了嘛是那有沒有可能再重新啟動另外一波讓這個境外資金匯回能夠在台灣擴大投資就是原本在中國投資的台商第二波的想要再回來的擴大資本投資的有沒有再重新啟動專法"},{"start":280.234,"end":293.869,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等19條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等19條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等19條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等19條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等19條文修正草案："},{"start":295.212,"end":318.118,"text":"我想那個境外資金回流這一部分我們可能要考慮到因為現在國內的超額儲蓄每年是有三兆的那如果資金、油資氾濫這個問題如果我們可能要尋求一些解決對策以後你要投入公件啦,就是說很多的售行業,那麼多的油資"},{"start":319.838,"end":328.362,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":347.931,"end":349.252,"text":"案、如何使用這些草案的程序。」"},{"start":370.993,"end":371.013,"text":"案 。"},{"start":390.877,"end":396.159,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":418.246,"end":419.947,"text":"案 及第十三條條文修正草案 案 及第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":447.25,"end":469.196,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":470.832,"end":495.332,"text":"根委員報告,我們是希望說在全台灣各地都能有青年培力工作站,包括離島偏鄉,那這個原因呢?你的目標太過抽象,全島各地,你要各鄉啊,要投入多少人力、多少資源,你都要很明確,每一個鄉有一鄉一特色,然後你要這個鄉,比如說高雄市有38區,每一個區"},{"start":498.091,"end":500.826,"text":"這每一個區的特色你問怎麼去發展怎麼去導引"},{"start":502.113,"end":530.838,"text":"而不是說你當然當然是全國都要有全島都全國都要有這個培地站但是你要有工作目標要有明確不太抽象來再說一下跟委員報告我們目前因為今年培地工作站才剛開始兩三年我們目前的做法是先在各縣市先以各縣市比較均衡發展為主那委員這邊的建議所以各縣市在主導不是你們主導對各縣市會報計畫上來是你們在是我們在審查對在你們核建的過程中能夠考慮到這個"},{"start":531.918,"end":552.245,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":562.589,"end":585.405,"text":"案,除了青年培力工作站之外,其實我們還有另外一個就是說創生計畫的部分在我們非都會區的部分也非常多。在北高雄有八個區,你們青年培力工作站設了幾站,投入多少資源,然後地方創生相關的執行狀況在我的選區你能不能做一個整理?"},{"start":586.245,"end":589.408,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"}]}},{"id":"152605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3053832cb08fab5fe3fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0fa7ebe0c7653a83505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:30:23 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Corners」？這個大概是兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片，這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示，為什麼？是因為它剛好把中國在澳洲所做的一些手法，算是一個非常完整地披露，因為時間的因素，我這邊很簡短地把它run過一遍。","最主要裡面有一個前中國的秘密特工Eric，他其實本來是逃離中國的，逃離中國了之後，結果被秘密警察找上門，給他兩個選項，他要麼坐牢，要麼就臥底，所以他後來就為中國公安部服務，因此他是一個非常典型的公安部線路。他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常地多，按照這個紀錄片，他當然有潛入跟西藏有關的一些集會，然後在簡報的右邊，他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員，他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人，那位人士已經過世了。另外這幾個我就不講他的這些內容，包括尹科，還有王立銘，還有最後的華涌，這幾個都是被監控的對象。這些監控的對象對我們來講，當然它最主要針對的就是海外的異議人士，可以看到他們有人是在網路上拍影片批評習近平，其實就跟剛剛我們臺灣的名嘴一樣嘛，對不對？他去批評中國，然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎，免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的身分。","所以這些都是在海外現在正在進行式，像王立銘是一個漫畫家，應該是蠻多人知道的，這一個是他們之前的錄音；這兩個也是我剛剛講到的，它國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣。我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到，就是國安部在這邊有另外一個是網路的線路，是跟公安部比較不同的，它會有更多的一些，可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊，可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已，它還會去竊取他的社交網絡，然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做，手法是比較不同的。","副委員長，你可能對這個已經有一些一定的掌握，但我們還是做了一個簡單的整理，就是他們從上級一直到特工，然後接觸的手法，目前有跟監、有攻擊，而非常重要的是引誘到東南亞，最近我們在講打詐，我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家，其實是很常被討論的，引誘至東南亞這件事情，它甚至是用各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國再予以追捕。所以這邊我想問一下副委員長知不知道，就是這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況，在紀錄片裡面已經很完整，這個你們應該也有掌握。","我想問一下，我們回到臺灣的案例，如果是臺灣的名嘴，它也想要來做這樣的一個針對，它也想要去威脅他，但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人，這邊目前也沒有中國國安部的人，照理說應該沒有啦！請問，如果在臺灣，它一樣要對所謂它講的異議分子或者所謂在捍衛人權者，它想要來做威脅，那它可能會怎麼做？"],["呂副委員長元榮：是，我跟委員報告，謝謝您剛剛所提出來寶貴的資訊，包括在通過國安法、基本法第二十三條的時候，僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法，因此我們立即把相關的資訊，包含我們國內各機關所提供一個警示的規範，我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有海外的僑界人士，請他們要注意，我們提的是，如果到中港澳的時候要注意它有新的這樣的作法，包含手機的檢查等等，因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示，然後經由我們的通路，向海外僑界非常適切地來轉達。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個很好，就是我們對於我們僑界的同胞，譬如說他赴中港澳，他可能會受到這些威脅，這個應該是確認的事實，讓他們知道這個風險是好事，外交部也有在做相類似的行為，但現在很明顯的就是，它連在民主的國家、連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情，它在美國也可以做這樣的事情，我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多。這個是AI新的報告，他們甚至會去施壓，這個不是針對臺灣，它是針對中國，它一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動，所以它在民主國家是做得到這件事情。很重要的一點是在於，因為不管是一些司法的協定，還是因為他們海外公安的擴張它做得到，然後加上它現在有實體的法令，但是我剛剛想問的事情，這可能有超出僑委會的範疇，就是如果它今天在臺灣要做一模一樣的事情，感覺會比較困難啦！因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例，在臺灣要發生是比較麻煩的。第一個，當然按照他們的法律，我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內，但他們沒有那個執法的單位，所以我覺得，當然我們透過這樣的一個機會，其實是要提醒國人，就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情，但是在臺灣照樣可以發生，而且發生的方式很簡單，它不用通過執法單位，它其實通過立法委員就可以做到了，也就是說，臺灣的立法委員現在跟中國「勾勾纏」的，去中國跟他見面的是越來越多，他只要做一件事情，譬如說，剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係？他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實？所以我們立法院要來啟動調查，我們立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話，問話之後，對他來講，當然沒有任何的威脅，所以對中國來講，在臺灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢？就是要通過藐視國會罪，你把一般人全部叫來，如果叫來的時候他說謊、叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實，或者他今天不好好回答，那就用藐視國會罪把他移送法辦就可以了，這就完全可以達到在臺灣噤聲的效果，這是中國現在、目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情，而在臺灣沒有很好做，就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內，但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案，讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣在臺灣發生，所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境。","當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑委會，針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦，但我們現在要注意的是，我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況，這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達，我覺得也是重要的一件事情，因為時間的因素，我就大概先問到這邊，謝謝副委員長，謝謝。"],["呂副委員長元榮：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.48159375,"end":6.0553437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.632843750000003,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.04596875,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.93284375,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.16534375000003,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.42596875000004,"end":281.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.96159375,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.14471875000004,"end":496.57784375000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.59,"text":"喬委會副委員長"},{"start":12.096,"end":31.05,"text":"委員早安早那這個今天因為時間比較短那我就直接開始那這個不知道這個副委員長有沒有看到昨天這個新聞說國台辦表示說台灣有幾個名嘴說這一個網顧這個中國發展進步的事實要實施懲戒不知道有沒有看到這個新聞是我看到網路新聞對"},{"start":32.472,"end":47.914,"text":"這個其實就是一個中國對於台灣一些人的言論自由的打壓這個是對台灣並不是針對我們的海外的同胞但其實他們現在對於海外的這些同胞能夠做的事情感覺是更多的"},{"start":50.357,"end":65.415,"text":"這邊短短這10年之間大家應該都知道有反間諜法、國安法、基本法等等之類的就是中國這個法律戰越來越擴張那最主要他們有幾條線路當然第一個我們知道的是國安部相關的線路剛剛高航馬委員也有提到一些"},{"start":66.016,"end":66.116,"text":"副委員長"},{"start":88.264,"end":112.322,"text":"這個是大概兩天前才出來的一個紀錄片那這個紀錄片其實我覺得對我們來講是一個很好的警示為什麼是因為他剛好把中國在尤其在澳洲就是他所做的一些手法算是有一個非常完整的披露那我這邊很簡短的把它run過一遍因為時間的因素那最主要裡面有一個這個前中國的一個秘密特工Eric那他其實本來是逃離中國的"},{"start":113.303,"end":128.913,"text":"他逃離中國之後呢,結果被秘密警察找上門,給他兩個選項,你要麼坐牢,你要麼就臥底,所以他後來就為中國公安部服務,所以他是一個非常典型公安部的線路。那他目前看起來有做的事情其實非常的多,按照這個紀錄片,他這一個"},{"start":131.054,"end":153.36,"text":"他當然有潛入這一個跟西藏有關的一些集會然後在右邊他甚至裝扮成這樣的一個人員他想要去滲透另外一名他想要接觸的人那一位已經過世了所以這幾個這一個影科這個我就不講他的一些內容還有王立民還有最後這個華統就這幾個都是被他監控的對象"},{"start":155.64,"end":179.407,"text":"這個監控的對象對我們來講當然他最主要是針對要嘛就是海外的異議人士那可以看到他在這邊他在網路上拍影片批評習近平他其實就跟我們剛剛台灣的名嘴一樣對不對他去批評中國然後甚至還去施壓他的前女友墮胎免得他因為這樣取得澳洲公民的一個身分所以這個都是在海外現在正在進行式"},{"start":181.668,"end":209.649,"text":"我認為這個是一個漫畫家這個應該是蠻多人知道的那這個是他們之前的一個錄音那這兩個也是我剛剛講到的他國安部跟公安部的線路是稍微比較不一樣我之前在質詢的過程當中有特別提到就是國安部在這邊他有另外一個是網路的線路是跟公安部比較不同的他會有更多的一些可能去竊取他相關的一些資訊可能不只是單純像公安部會做跟監而已他還會去竊取他的社交網絡然後可能會用駭客攻擊的方式來做"},{"start":210.61,"end":210.77,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":227.504,"end":242.377,"text":"最近我們在講打詐其實我們講柬埔寨等等之類的國家其實是很常被討論引誘之東南亞這件事情它甚至是各式各樣的方式引誘到第三國在予以追捕所以這邊我想問一下副委員長不知道就是說"},{"start":242.897,"end":259.153,"text":"這些是海外我們現在掌握的狀況這個在紀錄片裡面已經很完整這個你們應該也有掌握那我想問一下我們回到我們台灣的案例就是如果是台灣的名嘴他也想要來做這樣的一個針對他也想要去威脅他但看起來這邊沒有中國公安部的人"},{"start":264.595,"end":278.301,"text":"請問他如果在台灣,他一樣要對所謂他講的異議分子,或者所謂在捍衛人權者,他想要來做威脅,那他可能會怎麼做呢?是,我跟委員報告,謝謝您剛剛所提出來的寶貴的資訊。"},{"start":282.003,"end":295.558,"text":"通過國安法通過基本法23條的時候僑委會有注意到中共這樣的一個手法因此我們立即把相關的資訊包含我們國內各機關所提供對"},{"start":297.24,"end":324.653,"text":"一個警示的一個規範我們立即轉請海外的工作同仁要轉告所有的海外的僑界的人士請他們要注意說當我們是提的時候如果到中港澳的時候要注意他有這個新的這樣的做法包含手機的檢查包含等等因此這個部分僑委會會配合國內相關單位他們提出來的警示然後像我們經由我們的通路向海外僑界非常適切的來轉達"},{"start":325.914,"end":348.594,"text":"這個很好就是說我們對於我們僑界的同胞他到比如說他赴中港澳他可能會受到這些威脅這個應該是確認的事實這個讓他們知道這個風險是好事外交部也有在做像類似的行為但現在很明顯的就是他連在民主的國家他連在澳洲都可以做這樣的事情他在美國也可以做這樣的事情我們在後面有看到他們這種跨國的這種鎮壓的方式其實是越來越多"},{"start":349.855,"end":378.032,"text":"這個是AI新的報告他們甚至會去施壓這個不是針對台灣,他是針對中國但他一樣透過家人去施壓說不准去參加特定的活動所以他的民主國家是做得到這件事情那這個很重要的一點是在於說因為不管是一些司法的協定還是因為他們海外公安的擴張他做得到然後加上他現在有實體的法令但我剛剛想問的事情這可能有當然是超出僑委會的範疇就是如果他今天是在台灣要做一模一樣的事情感覺會比較困難"},{"start":379.253,"end":406.287,"text":"因為我們剛剛看的這些所有的案例在台灣要發生是比較麻煩的第一個我們的當然按照他們的法律我們是在他們的一個管轄權的範圍之內但他們有那一個執法的單位所以這邊我覺得是當然我們透過這樣的一個機會其實是要提醒國人就是說的確我們在海外看到這些非常恐怖的事情但是在台灣照樣可以發生而且發生的方式很簡單他不用通過執法單位他其實通過立法委員就可以做到了"},{"start":406.787,"end":426.604,"text":"也就是說台灣的立法委員現在跟中國勾勾纏的去中國跟他見面的是越來越多那他只要做一件事情比如說今天剛剛不是說這些人是不是在迫害兩岸關係他們是不是在製造對中國不實的事實所以我們立法院要來啟動調查那麼立法院啟動調查就可以把剛剛那些人全部叫來問話"},{"start":428.166,"end":443.824,"text":"問話之後對他來講當然沒有任何的威脅所以對中國來講在台灣非常重要的一件事情是什麼呢就是要通過藐視國會罪你把一般人全部叫來如果叫來的時候他說謊他叫來的時候不肯提供他的事實或者他今天怎樣不好好回答"},{"start":444.384,"end":472.509,"text":"他就用藐視國會罪把你移送法辦就可以了這就完全可以達到在台灣晉升的效果這是中國現在目前在這兩年以來在全世界都在做的事情而在台灣沒有很好做就是因為我們不可能隨便讓他們的解放軍跟公安還有國安部的人進到我們的領土之內但最麻煩的事情就是我們現在很有可能會通過相關的法案讓我們剛剛在海外看到的事情一樣的在台灣發生"},{"start":473.729,"end":493.767,"text":"所以這就是我們現在面臨的困境當然我知道不管是外交部還是僑務委員會針對海外的這些警告已經非常的辛苦但我們現在要注意的是我們現在的國人是連在內部都會遇到一樣的狀況這種整包的資訊要怎麼跟國人傳達我覺得也是重要的一件事情那因為時間的因素我就大概先問到這邊謝謝副委員長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30b9b7111ca3ef07f0be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0f284365ca29e16c795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:27:24 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這個剛才有委員關心這個案子啦那我想這個目前這個保健食品的關稅稅率是百分之三十這個是我們在進入WTO的時候的承諾的稅率"},{"start":249.554,"end":269.836,"text":"那至於說未來將來要不要降這個是要尊重主管機關的意見啦主管機關目前以後來的以後推給經濟部我覺得你長期以來動不動你就互推我們關務署是執行單位他不是決策單位那你剛剛說尊重"},{"start":271.092,"end":271.592,"text":"現在說可以考慮"},{"start":293.708,"end":293.748,"text":"議員．王世堅"},{"start":312.077,"end":312.357,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":334.864,"end":357.651,"text":"不研發新藥他改來生產這些保健食品而且很多數是不肖的這些廠商你不但沒保護他他從來也不研發藥品他從來也不製作對國人有益的藥品他改來做這一項他們靠著不實的廣告那生產這些劣藥我"},{"start":359.329,"end":379.579,"text":"我其他不講,我光講一家傳統的生技公司齁這一家叫加格,加格一年吶一年高達343億的營業額啦其他好幾家他全部其他的藥品都不做了,不研發通通來做保健食品"},{"start":380.632,"end":405.257,"text":"那這價格算好的喔是好的喔另外出名的葡萄王那大江生衣那陳輝那這些都是保健食品站我剛剛講的這幾家大廠站他們百分之九十的生產金額欸百分之九十所以大家其他不做啦因為你高關稅的保護嘛啊大家就搶著"},{"start":406.899,"end":431.553,"text":"雨後春筍班一個一個一個都跑出來那都來做保健食品就好因為你這個高關稅保護著嘛好啦那我剛舉的這些是好的喔好的廠商欸不好的廠商名字我就不講啦我就講說他們造成的危害好了他們靠這些不實的廣告我相信你們很清楚嘛"},{"start":432.493,"end":457.93,"text":"不時的廣告有的還欺騙消費者說這個改善視力可以改善心血管疾病告別疾病這一些一大堆啦誇張不時的廣告保健食品他等於以藥品的方式在廣告那藥品我們必須這個醫師醫院處方針才能使用啊"},{"start":459.161,"end":477.574,"text":"尤其這些心臟病高血壓糖尿病視力退化這些都是必須專業醫師的處方針跟診治結果他們以這個不實的廣告這些不實廣告罰多少光我就講光講說改善視力賣"},{"start":480.373,"end":490.682,"text":"所以改善勢力的這一家好了每天廣告都充斥他去年啊一共被罰兩億五千萬光這一家兩億五千萬喔所以你們這個高關稅到底在保護誰啦"},{"start":498.393,"end":517.818,"text":"你保護了這些不肖廠商而且你讓人家本來正規的製藥業生技業者因為這龐大的商機嘛這高關稅的保護他們不研發新料啦通通來做保健食品結果"},{"start":521.983,"end":534.568,"text":"結論你保護了誰嘛你反而讓我們國內生技產業退化了不是嗎所以我認為這是當務之急你們非做不可啦那個署長你的看法呢是報告委員我們會將這些意見在函請這個這個我們工業局這邊再做評估你是那個報告我是關務署"},{"start":550.149,"end":572.714,"text":"官副署是你說要你再請因為貨品主管機關還是屬於這個經濟部這邊我們還是要請他就委就是你你就是源頭嘛源頭都告訴你你說要保護我們國內的生技產業結果沒有保護到你讓不肖業者應運而生"},{"start":574.585,"end":594.907,"text":"然後你要讓我們既有好的廠商業者不再研發啦通通來做保健品因為有高關稅的保護因為他們有高利益不是這樣嗎然後那些不肖業者還透過不實廣告因為這個利益太大啦高利之下"},{"start":596.437,"end":617.559,"text":"重力之下這是暴力的行為結果他們用不實廣告那買通了地下電台連電視直接侵入電視每天就這麼這樣跟你講我剛剛就跟你講啊光是吃眼睛說眼睛看後面的一年罰兩億五千萬他還繼續撥"},{"start":619.67,"end":638.207,"text":"你們就是始作俑者欸王委員將下來如果有機會我們再辦聯席委員會好了這個主題好不好那個主席我在是不是他要回答20秒鐘經濟部你把你剛剛那句話收回去你要找誰研究就是你嘛你還找誰研究廠房署代表"},{"start":639.515,"end":667.086,"text":"主席主席好我們這個委員的一些意見我們會再重新來做一個評估再來把這個意見送給那個財政部來做整個的稅制的一個的檢討多久啦多久你多久經濟部你什麼時候做出你們內部可以去把這個層面改掉差不多一個月一個月好我就等你就一個月"},{"start":667.881,"end":668.002,"text":"王世堅"}]}},{"id":"152603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e2742e784bc880589d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0fb0f7f8ee9a7a6aef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:27:39 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人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.754718750000002,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.14596875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.32721875,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.12034375,"end":40.767218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.157218750000002,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.00346875,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.75346875,"end":55.617218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.03471875,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.92784375000001,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.74596875,"end":69.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.28534375000001,"end":79.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.74846875,"end":100.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.84221875,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.76596875000001,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.19596875,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.10721875,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.45159375,"end":118.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.56096875,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.69596875,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.80096875000001,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.33659375,"end":124.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.27721875,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.45971875,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.07909375,"end":220.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.04034375,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.09096875,"end":210.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.35221875000002,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.78971875000002,"end":272.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.95034375,"end":314.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.54284375000003,"end":317.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.98971875,"end":334.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.10096875000005,"end":360.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.68346875000003,"end":361.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.40471875000003,"end":367.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.24346875000003,"end":402.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.14096875,"end":404.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.45721875000004,"end":405.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.19534375,"end":406.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.00534375,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.32096875,"end":419.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.44284375,"end":417.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.30721875,"end":420.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.29846875000004,"end":462.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.31721875000005,"end":495.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.35846875000004,"end":517.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.61034375,"end":506.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.88846875,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.62096875,"end":521.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.46846875,"end":524.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.37096875,"end":526.05846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":13.931,"text":"我們請呂毅玲委員請做詢答。謝謝主席,請高副主委。我們再請高副主委。"},{"start":20.168,"end":46.156,"text":"委員黃副主委今天你們拱族委去參加了陳建仁的內閣的行政院的最後一場的這個院會下個禮拜他就會成為行政院的秘書長也作為我們行政團隊跟產業之間的溝通橋樑跟整個統合協調各幕僚單位這個外界都帶抱著很大期待他接下來的表現但是國發會"},{"start":47.836,"end":66.578,"text":"在這個四年的時間協助了蔡英文總統在規劃2050年的近鄰轉型的這個政策。副主委,即將上任的這個經濟部的這個準部長我們郭智輝部長他對於核電的一些說法,您知道嗎?"},{"start":68.791,"end":87.1,"text":"他表示說核電若是要研議必須要經過全民的認同同時他也坦言說這個未來的新能源這個會作為半導體產業缺電的一個解方所以請問副主委"},{"start":87.84,"end":100.198,"text":"這是不是透露出下一個我們的新政府對於能源政策有這個調整的空間而且你支持這個新的經濟部長的說法跟支持嗎?"},{"start":101.559,"end":122.711,"text":"報告委員,我想新的內閣對於能源政策應該會有一個更創新而且更明確的一個做法,因為的確啦,就是因為我們現在其實隨著AI產業﹖所以對於能源政策有調整的空間嗎?這個說法你支持嗎?"},{"start":125.322,"end":150.576,"text":"我應該就是我覺得人員政策應該都是要滾動調整的是所以要調整我本席為什麼會這樣子說就是在國發會2022年的3月帶著所有的相關部會正式的公布了臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑跟我們整個政策的總說明希望2050年的能源配比可以達到再生能源在60%到70%"},{"start":152.717,"end":154.878,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":178.206,"end":202.118,"text":"所以是有調整的空間對不對因為基本上就是說其實我們再生能源的裝置容量其實還是維持相同的標準可是因為我們最近幾年來我們經濟發展的太快了所以它變成那個佔用電量大增所以它變成說分母變大分子是一樣的所以我們基本上再生能源20%的目標基本上就經濟部規劃來說2026年一定會確實的達成"},{"start":207.281,"end":210.402,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":233.57,"end":240.493,"text":"案、五條條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、五條條之一條文修正草案、"},{"start":262.862,"end":265.943,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":292.589,"end":292.729,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":315.621,"end":320.124,"text":"案、第七條及第八條之一條文修正草案、第八條之一條文修正草案、第八條之一條文修正草案、"},{"start":335.114,"end":339.456,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":362.469,"end":362.489,"text":"案。」"},{"start":368.331,"end":368.771,"text":"一、本院委員"},{"start":396.451,"end":405.259,"text":"四、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":422.015,"end":431.002,"text":"我認為經濟部確保了一定是它會提供產業穩定而且充裕的電力,這個是政府的實質重點之一。因為我們不容許這樣的事情發生。"},{"start":438.629,"end":460.929,"text":"案件不容許,可是一直發生,光是我們桃園就發生四十幾次了,那本需要請教你就是最近這個合作董事長也是你們民進黨的這個智庫的副董童子賢特別就說了要追求2050年近年的轉型至少還要建置40GW的再生能電來換算等於"},{"start":463.371,"end":487.117,"text":"就是要整個臺灣都是要太陽能板才鋪設才有辦法做到這非常不實際所以本席在這邊要要求你們可以像比照臺灣可以比照芬蘭在這個停役的合一廠跟這個封存的核四廠的原子來建置第三代的這個壓水反應爐跟新型的這個核電廠它的安全係數跟它的發電這個效率"},{"start":491.618,"end":494.443,"text":"可以大大的提升,而渴望可以抑制這個電價,對不對?"},{"start":496.577,"end":496.917,"text":"案﹚立法院議員"}]}},{"id":"152601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3005bde1ba2c579a5afe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f438b110bf66173085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:18:38 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什麼資料?不是,它上面標示會有電話,你撿到的話請打這支電話必有重賞,類似這樣的就是我們的漁民曾經撈過交給海巡署的阿然後勒?"},{"start":551.428,"end":556.499,"text":"然後海巡當然會 這個是不是軍事上的一些打電話"},{"start":557.844,"end":561.626,"text":"國安局是掌握我們整體國家安全不管你在情研各方面的收整其實都是非常重要的那既然現在他們覺得這是一個很大的威脅尤其我們現在不管我們在發展水面艦艇或潛艦等等其實周邊我們海域的這些相關的資訊是非常重要的現在海軍"},{"start":585.8,"end":590.524,"text":"是全世界大家都認為他的推動或者他的發展或者他的優異度其實是對整體作戰還有區域安全是有非常重要的一個影響那如果發生這樣的狀況我們只是請漁民打電話打電話然後我們聽不出來說後面怎麼樣我剛剛的兩個問題我再重複一次我們希望國安局就這個部分可以有一個更完整的一個回答跟他的處置作為"},{"start":614.281,"end":618.742,"text":"再交給我們委員會好不好第一個就是在面對這個海洋間諜可能的威脅以後對我們下轄臺灣相關的勤研單位可以採取什麼樣相關的措施來因應這是第一點第二個怎麼樣才能完善的防護臺灣周遭海域水下知情的這個安全不致遭受無端的收集或者"},{"start":641.886,"end":642.026,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":665.464,"end":665.944,"text":"好,沒問題,好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30932c1a16d0abda823ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fd6197b49c015b13e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:19:20 - 10:29:14","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":594,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:29:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:19:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：許委員好。"],["許委員智傑：次長好。其實交通部事情真的非常龐雜，有很多事情要慢慢的成熟之後，我們看政策的實施，要慢慢的與時俱進。","我們先來看停車位的問題，我想前一陣子騎樓停車的事，次長應該很清楚啦，其實很多地方對這個問題都很困擾，尤其是鄉下地方，鄉下地方騎樓停車好像都是很自然的事，而且也不會影響到交通，當然，交通部當時的規定變成檢舉達人很多都針對騎樓停車的部分，這個是全國一致的，就是大部分都會覺得相當的困擾。以臺北市來說，我知道這部分是處理到差不多了啦，臺北市騎樓停車的狀況其實很少，越鄉下騎樓停車的情況就越普遍，檢舉達人不斷地去檢舉，造成地方很大的困擾，所以我們有去修正法規，讓檢舉達人在微罪部分，也就是罰鍰1,200元以下的違規行為不能檢舉，甚至是停車只要有留1.5米的通道保障行人的路權，這算是一個權宜的措施，所以我們在做事情有很多地方可以從正面思考跟從反面思考，看看怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點。","針對騎樓停車的部分，現在也真的是不能停，所以停車位很需要，現在我們很多里民的反映就是騎樓不能停車，而出去外面租位子也租不到，怎麼辦？那就亂停，亂停會被開單，亂停也會影響到交通。所以這個停車位的問題，我覺得在全國應該就各城市有需要的地方去做一個通盤的思考，我們的前瞻計畫中有關改善停車問題的經費，到現在好像都用完了，對不對？全部都用完了嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，跟委員報告，2,600億都已經……"],["陳局長文瑞：260億。"],["許委員智傑：260億啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，260億都已經分配完了，不好意思。"],["許委員智傑：好，交通部針對這個問題還有沒有思考未來要怎麼樣去處理？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告一下，有關停車的這個問題，我們也感受到很多委員也都有這樣的一個建議，對於這個部分，我們正在思索，也會跟後續的新部長或者院長來建議……"],["許委員智傑：好，你們先做思考。"],["陳次長彥伯：是不是有編列相關預算的可能。"],["許委員智傑：我舉個例子，螢幕上這張是我們高雄市鳳山運動園區的圖，當時在陳菊市長任內要去做這個運動園區的時候，我就跟陳市長及交通局、工務局反映，要預留地下停車場，所以後來運動園區做完之後，地下停車場也如當時我們的建議，現在也完成了，坦白講，當地的居民真的是非常的感謝，不然真的沒地方停車。再來看我們鳳山的五甲國宅，你看底下那個五甲國宅，差不多有7,000戶啦，停車位有多少你知道嗎？差不多180個位子啦，你叫他們怎樣辦？我們希望市府要再多規劃，但是多規劃，同一個平面，不然就做立體，都有很多不一樣的思考，但我們就是要替居民發聲，真的是一位難求啦，不是他要違規停車，真的是不知道要停在哪裡。","所以我們在做一個最簡單的交通規劃，除了我們想到的大建設之外，這個就是小市民的需求，我覺得我們政府要發展經濟、照顧弱勢是要去照顧他沒辦法處理的小生活問題，這個看起來是小事，但其實是大事喔，這是全國的問題，包括像我們五甲龍成宮現在要做捷運站，附近如果沒有停車規劃，到時候都會很麻煩。包括鳳山車站的周邊，我們現在要BOT了，BOT之後我們就要開始規劃停車位，規劃停車位的部分，當然我可以努力的部分，我會跟市府一起努力，或者是找國有財產署的地或是其他相關機關的地，可以努力的我們會儘量去努力，但是交通部有沒有去做這樣子的思考、規劃跟協助？所以這個部分，我希望交通部可以趕快再做一下，怎麼樣去幫助解決全國的停車位問題，配合地方政府一起分擔、一起努力嘛，這樣才會有成果，所以這個部分，我希望交通部先做一下思考。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會來向行政院爭取。"],["許委員智傑：剩下1分鐘，本席還要提出的是復康巴士的問題，復康巴士現在還是有徵收燃料稅嘛，復康巴士向我反映的是，他們都是載弱勢者，尤其將來長照是國家推動的重要方向，需要復康巴士的人會越來越多、越來越多，現在又開始老年化了，所以這個部分，我是希望也可以免徵燃料費，因為這是你們的內規，你們第四條的第五點，因為時代不同了，電動車不用課徵嘛，因為它沒有吃汽油，這是後來加的；第六點計程車也是後來增加的，因為計程車被列為大眾運輸嘛。復康巴士事實上所載的也是跟Uber一樣，Uber被列為計程車，Uber是先下載叫車程序，然後預約，也算是大眾運輸，所以Uber現在可以免徵燃料費。我們的復康巴士，它所乘載的對象是限於符合特定資格者，所以你們當時給高雄市政府的答復是說不行，但是事實上，它是服務殘障或是弱勢的大眾，而且又有公益的性質，包括財政部都可以因為具有公益性質而可以少掉復康巴士的牌照稅，請問交通部有沒有機會把復康巴士列為免燃料稅的一個項目？趕快，我的發言時間到了。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我跟委員報告一下，委員剛才特別提到計程車的部分，會加進去其實應該是說有法源啦，因為在大眾運輸發展條例裡面有提到準公共運輸，所以把它納進去，但因為復康巴士不在那個條例裡面，所以我們在這裡才會曾經解釋說它是不符合那個……"],["許委員智傑：所以我就說時代……"],["陳次長彥伯：有關這方面，委員既然有這樣一個提議，我們來看一下，看看如何來做處理。"],["許委員智傑：時代與時俱進嘛，我說的，不管是殘障、不管是長輩、長照，這些也算是大眾耶！"],["陳次長彥伯：我們再來看怎麼討論，或者是跟衛福部討論一下，因為復康巴士是衛福部主管的車輛，看衛福部可不可以用什麼樣的方式……"],["許委員智傑：我再強調一下，財政部都有去協助復康巴士的牌照稅，衛福部當然對於弱勢的照顧有他的一套辦法，交通部至少對弱勢的大眾也要有一點協助的誠意吧，所以我希望交通部在這個部分做一下研究啦，現在你沒有辦法馬上回答也沒關係。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們來研究一下，然後再跟委員做說明。"],["許委員智傑：我希望你們去研究一下，下次我會再問。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們再跟委員說明。"],["許委員智傑：新的部長來了以後我也會再問，所以希望你們認真的研究一下，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許委員發言完畢，也謝謝邱若華委員，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時29分）","繼續開會（10時39分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們請次長請次長徐維好次長好 其實交通部事情真的非常的龐雜有很多事情要慢慢的成熟之後我們看政策的實施要慢慢的去與時濟進我們先看停車位"},{"start":33.277,"end":49.609,"text":"我想前一陣子騎樓停車的事次長應該很清楚啦齁其實很多都很困擾尤其是鄉下地方鄉下地方騎樓停車好像都是很自然的事"},{"start":50.902,"end":78.83,"text":"而且也不會影響到交通那當然交通部當時規定這個變成說檢舉達人很多針對騎樓停車這個是全國一致就是大部分都會覺得相當的困擾那臺北市我知道這部分是處理到差不多了啦臺北市騎樓停車的狀況其實很少那越鄉下"},{"start":80.02,"end":93.237,"text":"許德廷這個情況就越普遍那檢舉達人不斷的去檢舉造成地方很大的困擾所以當然我們要去修這個檢舉達人在違罪比如說你1200塊以下那"},{"start":99.721,"end":99.861,"text":"許智傑"},{"start":130.655,"end":155.221,"text":"現在我們很多里民反應就是說我騎樓不能停然後我出去外面租位置租不到怎麼辦那就亂停亂停也會被開單亂停也會影響到交通所以這個停車的位置我覺得全國應該就是就"},{"start":156.658,"end":157.619,"text":"好,那交通部"},{"start":187.534,"end":209.641,"text":"針對這個問題還有沒有去做思考未來要怎麼樣去處理我跟委員報告一下有關停車的這個問題我們也感受到很多的委員大概也都有這樣的一個建議所以這一個我們會正在思索也會跟後續的這個新的"},{"start":211.261,"end":238.088,"text":"部長或是院長來建議,是不是有相關可能?我舉個例子像我們高雄市這張圖是我們鳳山運動園區的圖那當時在陳局市長的任內要去做這個運動園區的時候事實上我就跟陳市長跟交通局跟公務局反映要預留我們的地下停車場"},{"start":240.152,"end":269.233,"text":"阿所以後來運動園區做完之後那我們的地下停車場也如當時我們的建議現在也完成坦白講當地的居民真的是非常的感謝阿沒有真的沒收到停車那再來看我們鳳山的無價國債你看底下那個無價國債齁我們差不多有7000戶啦停車位多少你知道嗎差不多8倍位啦"},{"start":273.542,"end":298.451,"text":"你叫他安裝所以市府我們希望說再多規劃那是多規劃同一個平面不然就做立體都有很多不一樣的思考但是我們要替居民以為難求不是他要違規停車他真的不知道要停下來所以我們再做一個最簡單的交通的"},{"start":299.622,"end":326.22,"text":"規劃在我們想到的大型建設以外這就是小市民的需求那我覺得我們政府要發展經濟照顧作勢或是照顧他無法處理的小生活問題我覺得這個是看起來是小但是是大這是全國的問題包括像我們有一個農村公現在要做那個捷運站"},{"start":328.05,"end":357.096,"text":"附近如果沒有停車規劃這到時候都會很難過包括我們鳳山車站的周邊我們現在要BOT要BOT之後我們就開始要整個停車位整個停車位當然我可以努力的我可以持負努力或者其他的國有財產署的地或者其他的相關的地我們可以努力的我會盡量去努力但是交通部有沒有去做這樣子的思考"},{"start":358.137,"end":358.758,"text":"復康巴士"},{"start":384.108,"end":407.161,"text":"復甘巴士現在還是有增燃料稅復甘巴士跟我們講我都是在作誰我都是在尤其將來長照是國家推動的重要的方向需要復甘巴士的人會越來越多越來越多現在又開始老年化"},{"start":408.346,"end":428.331,"text":"所以這個部分我是希望說這是你們的內規啦就是說那個免材料費的我們先看上面一條上面一頁你們的第第四條的那個第五點因為時代不同了電動車就不用了吧因為它沒有吃汽油吧"},{"start":429.482,"end":445.091,"text":"好那這個是後來加的吧第6點計程車也是後來加的因為計程車它被列為大眾運輸嘛那富康巴士事實上它載的也是跟Uber一樣下一張"},{"start":446.109,"end":473.411,"text":"那Uber被列為競爭車那Uber是你有下載有預約那也算是大眾運輸所以Uber它現在是可以免燃料費那我們的復康巴士你看這個它存在的對象呢事實上它是符合特定資格你們當時的答覆給高雄市政府的答覆是說不行但是呢事實上它是殘障或者是弱勢的大眾"},{"start":476.42,"end":495.377,"text":"所以我是覺得而且它又有公益的性質那包括財政部的那個牌照稅都有公益的性質可以少掉復康巴士的牌照稅那是不是我們交通部有沒有機會把這個復康巴士列為免燃料稅的一個項目"},{"start":499.66,"end":525.585,"text":"趕快趕快現在時間到了我跟委員報告一下委員剛才特別提到的那個計程車的部分會加進去其實應該是說又有法源所以大眾運輸發展條例裡面有提到準公共運輸所以把它納進去那這裡頭因為富康巴士是不是在那個條例裡面所以才我們在這裡才有曾經解釋說他是不符合所以我就說"},{"start":526.505,"end":541.373,"text":"有關這方面我們委員竟然有這樣的一個提議我們來看一下看是如何來做處理時代與時俱進嘛是那另外我說的不管是長照不管是長輩長照這些其實他也算是大眾"},{"start":543.147,"end":544.048,"text":"財政部都有去協助復康巴士的牌照稅"},{"start":560.8,"end":588.827,"text":"衛福部當然對於弱勢的照顧他有一套套的辦法那交通部至少對弱勢跟弱勢的大眾也有一點協助的誠意嘛所以希望說交通部在這一部分做一下研究啦現在你沒有辦法回答馬上回答也沒關係但是我希望說研究一下下一次我會再問新的部長也會再問所以希望你們認真的研究一下好不好是是是好OK 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10:19:02","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":469,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:19:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:11:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時11分）主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：次長好。本席今天第一個議題想要討論的是有關我們今天講橋梁安全的部分，全國21縣市差不多有一萬六千三百多座橋梁，我想請問一下，我們目前的橋梁，超過40歲以上的橋梁，也就是應該準備要修的橋梁大概有幾座？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個手頭上你們有嗎？不好意思，如果有的話提供一下數據。"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，我們交通部這邊有建置一個車行橋梁管理資訊系統，這裡面就是去匯集包括地方政府所管轄的橋梁的一些資料。根據目前這個系統裡面的資料，剛才委員所詢問橋齡的部分，40年以上的橋梁，目前大概有3,248座車行橋梁。"],["林委員沛祥：所以差不多是五分之一嘛，對不對？如果一萬六千多座橋梁的話，差不多是……"],["林所長繼國：現在全國大概是兩萬兩千多座，縣市政府的部分是一萬六千五百多座。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼會這樣問的原因，因為403大地震剛發生，我們都知道，前一陣子大家最關心橋梁安全，全國矚目的案件是有關南方澳大橋，如果我記得沒有錯的話，南方澳大的橋齡差不多不到40年、30年，甚至好像連30年都不到，我記得是1999還是1989，差不多30年到20年之間的橋齡，然後就發生斷裂。這就表示說，其實我們的地質在接受任何變化的時候是相當不穩定的，但只要橋一斷，不只是人命安全會有危險之外，另外一方面，更重要的是整個交通安全會中斷。以我基隆市為例，不管是和平橋、社寮橋，還有其他的橋梁，我記得沒有錯的話，其實都已經滿久了，我想請問一下，針對地方的橋梁，有關超過40年的部分，請問目前我們的偵測跟修補的計畫是什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告一下，原則上地方主管的橋梁，它每一年要去做一些相關的檢測，檢測完以後它會有一個U值，U值大於4的就是大概要立即做維修，甚至如果不能修，可能就要重建等等的。所以剛才特別提到40年以上的橋梁，不必然是一定要做相關的維修，還是要看它每一年檢測的情況，因為它維護的好，其實還是可以延續它的一個生命，所以整體來講，還是要看檢測的結果來決定它是不是要做一定的補強也好，或者是要重建，大概是這樣。"],["林委員沛祥：本席是絕對尊重我們交通的專業，但是必須要提醒的是，因為這次403大地震，未來還有很多餘震，很多餘震甚至是我們的體感感受不到的，這些餘震都對於地質，都對於地層會有很深的影響，與其是到了事情發生、憾事發生了，然後有人走掉了，我們再來去檢討說當初我們可以做得更好，本席會建議在這邊以交通部的宏觀來講，必須真的要超前部署，預先去預防這樣的事情發生。","第二個，本席今天要討論的，剛好公路局局長在場，就是有關電動大客車的問題，因為最近能源危機，不管是我們的能源政策，說真的是有錯誤的啦，能源政策的錯誤也好，還是全球的環保意識高漲也好，我們電動大客車的政策嚴格來講方向是正確的，但是人家講的一句話就是「理想很豐滿，現實很骨感」，我一直聽到業者跟我反映說，我們的電動巴士2030要全國化，對吧？但是到目前為止，好像很多業者反映台電那邊無法配合電動巴士到位，是不是有這個狀況？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告一下，有關各縣市，尤其是我們公路局核定電動巴士的時候，不管是路線也好，場站也好，我們在那裡頭都有一個條件，就是希望他要跟台電及地方政府大家共同去討論如何提供穩定的電力讓他們能夠足以充電，所以這個部分在一開始的時候是有些縣市有提出來，但是後來因為我們相關的補助機制裡面就有縣市政府要共同來協助，所以這個問題應該是可以解決。"],["林委員沛祥：次長，這就是我現在為什麼把電動巴士這個議題拿出來講的原因，因為一方面來講，像六都相對來講財源比較充足，電動巴士的購買、電動巴士裝置會比較輕鬆，但像我基隆市財政困難的時候，這方面可能就需要公路局做補助。除此之外，台電現在是否有足夠的電力在2030提供全國的巴士電動化？其實本席對這件事保持高度的懷疑，如果在2030真的要全面電動化的話，我們現在的電夠不夠？電動樁夠不夠？我們現在的發電廠怎麼樣南電北送？各方面的事情全部都沒有idea！我上次直接問國發會主委，國發會主委說不知道，等回去後再查給我，然後我等了一個月之後也沒有任何資料上來，其實我個人認為這是相當不負責任的一個態度，在推行公共政策來講，這是非常不負責任的一個態度！","2030全面電動巴士，2040全面電動小客車跟全面電動機車，2050全國無碳化，但是我們怎麼樣用電，我們不知道，我們現在的電是什麼？我們燒煤炭、我們用天然氣，甚至有百分之十不到是用綠能，但是在這樣的情況之下，我們電力不夠充足的時候，甚至連我們基本的生產、我們基本的經濟發展都不能維持，你怎麼去做到全國無碳化？這一點其實不只是交通部的問題，應該已經上升到行政院的問題了，但是交通部是要直接去執行至少2030、2040的政策。針對我今天的質詢，我也知道一時之間交通部拿不出一個完整的報告，但是我們還是希望在一個月之內提供給我，至少交通部針對怎麼樣去達到你們說的2030電動巴士全國化、怎麼樣去達到2040電動小客車、電動機車全國化，我覺得這是比較務實的作法，次長，你覺得呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員所需要的相關書面報告，我們來提供。但是也跟委員報告，剛才委員特別提到台電，其實我們公路局跟台電有一個窗口來協助各縣市，當它有電動巴士要設置時相關電網的供應，有這樣的一個機制在這裡面，後續其實我們的補助裡頭也會去補助各個客運業者有儲能的設備，意思就是在尖峰的時候……"],["林委員沛祥：我想我今天就不要占用許智傑委員的時間了，請你們跟我辦公室約時間再來做專案報告，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好。"],["林委員沛祥：跟我當面報告一下，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：可以、可以。"],["主席：林沛祥委員發言完畢。","現在請許智傑委員發言。在許委員發言之前，我請教一下邱若華委員，你要接著質詢嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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輕鬆但像我基隆市財政困難的時候這方面可能就需要公路許多補助這一方面這個除此之外那其實臺電現在是否有足夠的電力在2030提供全國的巴士電動化其實本席對這件事保持高度的懷疑"},{"start":343.462,"end":368.061,"text":"因為甚至來講說我們2030如果真的要電動化的話我們現在電夠不夠電動裝夠不夠我們現在的發電廠怎麼樣南電北送各方面的事情全部都沒有idea我上次直接問國發會主委國發會主委說我不知道等我回去查給你然後我等了一個月之後也沒有任何資料上來那其實我個人認為這是相當不負責任的一個態度在推行公共政策來講這是非常不負責任的一個態度"},{"start":370.29,"end":386.467,"text":"2030全面電動巴士2040全面電動小客車跟全面電動機車2050全國無碳化但是我們怎麼樣用電我們不知道那我們現在電是什麼我們燒煤炭我們添燃氣甚至有一些有10%不到是用綠能"},{"start":387.25,"end":402.679,"text":"但是這樣的情況之下我們其實電力不夠充足的時候甚至連我們基本的生產甚至我們基本的經濟發展都不能維持那你怎麼去做到全國無碳化這點我想說交通部這其實不只是交通部這應該是已經上升到行政院的問題了"},{"start":403.399,"end":429.291,"text":"但是交通部是直接要去直接去執行這至少是2030跟2040的政策我希望說在會後我今天質詢我也知道一時之間交通部拿不出一個完整的報告但是我蠻希望在一個月之內我能夠至少交通部針對怎麼樣去達到你們說的2030電動巴士全國化怎麼樣去達到2040電動小客車電動機車全國化我覺得是不是比較務實的做法次長你覺得呢"},{"start":431.023,"end":448.257,"text":"相關的這個委員所需要的一個書面的一個報告我們來提供但是也跟委員報告有關剛才委員特別提到臺電其實我們公路局有跟臺電有個窗口來協助各縣市當他有電動巴士要設置的時候相關電網的一個供應有這樣的一個機制在這裡面"},{"start":449.478,"end":450.399,"text":"後續補助各個客運業者有儲能設備"}]}},{"id":"152598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3085af88a3346919533ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f87ea78fc2deb64d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:02:48 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市長 高工局的工程有發生弊案你知道嗎這個是2021年 檢調去開挖高工局在國道中遼隧道 越市間中遼隧道那開挖的結果發現 因為他們的隧道工程也有邊坡他岩栓 岩栓應該就是要摔到那個斜坡岩石上面的"},{"start":34.41,"end":59.398,"text":"開發的結果第一個不合格率有62%超過一半不合格那第二次再去檢驗有46%不合格那這個是關係到工程安全最重要的那這個營造公司他把沙漿吊包本來要灌沙漿吊包改成青漿那個鹽酸"},{"start":64.056,"end":72.125,"text":"他數量不合格以外他還拿去偷賣還拿去偷賣錢啊還賣給 多的還拿去賣給廢料公司啊"},{"start":74.397,"end":98.895,"text":"那這個案子啊那你高公局現在怎麼處理跟委員報告那這裡面就是說涉及到那個不法的廠商跟建造的那個顧問公司他已經在立那個法院審判當中那我們針對的鞭波是109年完成的那我們在檢測的結果他這個有缺失的部分大概是第三第四階的部分那我們針對這個部分有做一個補強那也這個補強做完再補強就算了"},{"start":100.516,"end":122.189,"text":"2011年剪掉就去開發了那新聞今年才出來那發生一件了那又發生了第二件了大園交流道到台15線新闢道路工程因為發生了公安事件那工人掉下來被鋼筋砸死後來啊去檢查"},{"start":127.319,"end":149.689,"text":"從才發現啦,那偷工減料,沒有按讀施工,跟前面的中遙隧道發生的原因都一樣,就是他沒有按讀施工,然後都偷工減料。那我們的監照在哪裡啦?我們自己高工局派在現場的人員在做什麼事?"},{"start":151.151,"end":179.236,"text":"跟委員報告 這個我們現在高工局沒有那麼多人力所以我現在都是委託監督那這個地方的部分他是樣價金的部分他不是在橋梁的主金裡面的所以可以偷工減料?所以他是臨時設施臨時設施不安途施工也沒有關係啊你怎麼說這個意思是這樣沒有沒有沒有 我跟委員報告就是說第一個就是說他的一個品質是沒有問題的第二個就是他有問題的部分偷工減料叫品質沒問題他有問題的部分是在施工的臨時的一個設施的樣金的部分出人命欸"},{"start":182.196,"end":201.361,"text":"這判定就是說那工人為什麼會掉下來?因為你頭工減料啊,你沒有教導師工啊你現在跟我說品質沒問題,沒有關係我是跟委員報告是說,坐在裡面的部分是沒有問題所以你工人能不夠,你自己的工作你就不負責了來,市長,像這種你工人內部要不要行政處分啊?你為這工程的人要不要處分啊?"},{"start":206.091,"end":226.129,"text":"我跟委員報告有關這個有關在交通部現行督導上有關這個發生公安的時候我們大概都會要求不是公安是這是閉案是偷工減料沒有按圖施工這部分我想我先跟委員報告而且你那個中寮隧道"},{"start":227.27,"end":250.581,"text":"在他剛開始做施工的過程2018年交通部你們自己研究部有一個工程查核小組這一部設在交通部裡面的他就去檢查中寮隧道他就查出了32項缺失啦那查出了缺失以後啊然後呢這件事情就看掉了就放在抽屜裡面"},{"start":251.857,"end":268.708,"text":"阿不是啊 這32項缺失啊 已經都查出來了 後續竟然還是一樣發生了沒有暗途施工 然後呢 偷工減難的問題如果不是因為檢察官接到密報去開挖 這個事情讓那灌漿蓋過去啊 這事情沒人知道的你講啊"},{"start":276.11,"end":296.117,"text":"委員有關這個我們回去請我們的中規司再來了解一下如果有相關的人我知道你也答不出來啦你交通部這個制度就有問題啦你自己部裡面的集合小組查到自己的單位你們部裡面的工程有出現問題然後關關相護啦"},{"start":302.645,"end":322.709,"text":"欸!32項缺失耶!不是3項耶!你們早就檢查出來啊!是!然後更離譜的啦!那個建造也是啦!建造,你說高有建造公司嘛!對不對!建造是!建造公司齁還作弊啦!他在工程日誌啊!檢查的時間啊!那寫錯啦!還寫在灌漿以前!你看喔!做...做表就不要做表!一般是灌漿之後才可以檢查!對不對!"},{"start":330.267,"end":333.179,"text":"他寫那個檢查日期寫在灌漿以前這個也被檢察官抓到啊"},{"start":338.312,"end":360.612,"text":"這個港鐵評決要嚇死人而且這個是跟安全有關係的嘛對不對你現在港鐵的意思是什麼這個沒有那麼嚴重根委員報告我們都已經這個在4年前發生了一個事情我們現在來講是說也經過我們那個整個在補強然後也經過大地工程學會我們有第三方的認證目前是這個邊坡是穩定安全"},{"start":361.252,"end":379.8,"text":"所以這事：所以你一件發生就發生案子已經在法院審判了嗎你們相關的單位包括你自己本人一件接一件又不是一件的你工具都是國家最重要的國道都要管的每次發發重大工程我才找到兩件都有弊案的而且都是那種偷工減料的不按圖施工真的還有出人命的"},{"start":391.997,"end":407.692,"text":"市長你這兩天你們有行政處分嗎?你們自己不用檢討嗎?還有你們的集合流程你們蓋嗎?是我想委員提出來的這些問題我們內部做一些檢討如果有相關人員疏失的話我們會做相關的行政處分"},{"start":409.946,"end":437.631,"text":"你給我打官腔的喔?不是阿你講這個會違規阿我跟委員剛才有特別講你一定要有處分阿你現在要當檢討生?我有話講啦我剛才有講被你打斷了就是那個公安的部分我們都有要求假設有公安的時候包含監照雙方甲乙雙方甚至工程單位我們也都會要求做相關的一個行政的處分那這裡頭有特別提到這種施工上的弊案的這些我想我們會一併做檢討是"},{"start":439.651,"end":449.049,"text":"投訴高峰局的啊這個單位要注意的我想交通部管的都要注意啦好 謝謝市長 謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"152597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc308ad1e65b4dba458b3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fb3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:54:08 - 10:02:26","影片長度":"00:08:18","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-12"},"duration":498,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:02:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:54:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時54分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請交通部政次還有公路局陳局長？"],["主席：請陳次長、陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好，一開始當然要先肯定，這個禮拜一臺中的台74線接國道一號的工程順利通車，這要感謝交通部、公路局大家的努力，讓臺中交通的任督二脈終於打通了。"],["陳次長彥伯：高速公路局。"],["黃委員健豪：抱歉！高速公路局。"],["陳次長彥伯：公路局是在聯絡橋梁……"],["黃委員健豪：公路局也有啊！台74線這一段感謝大家分工合作把這件事做好，但是，馬上就要「但是」了，我們看一下，這個是本席禮拜二、禮拜三晚上剛好經過發現的一件事情，雖然台74接國道1號的聯絡道做好了，的確是一個很大、很重要的工程，但是台74這條快速道路很多匝道，包含崇德那段匝道，好像到我昨天晚上開的時候都還沒有開通，我想問一下為什麼？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，我們在大雅系統交流道施工的時候總共封了3個匝道，包括崇德的西入，還有北屯二的東入跟西出，崇德交流道的部分是配合大雅系統開放的時候一起通車了。現在來講，北屯交流道這兩支匝道部分，橋下還是一個工區，因為橋下的復原還沒有完成，所以大概要到6月18號，這個部分有跟臺中市政府當時申請的交通維持就是到6月18號開放。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝解釋。因為我覺得民眾的期待是通車典禮辦了之後，不只是可以接國道而已，包含過往直接下去接市區道路這段也應該一併開放，因為如果不開放，就變成上面比較通暢，但是下面照樣在塞車，台74下面的道路其實就是重要幹道，連接了所謂大雅、北屯、西屯，如果因為工區遲遲沒有把它解決的話，我想這兩天包含我自己的社群網路也好，服務處也好，大家的一個疑問就是不是通車了嗎？是通假的嗎？"],["趙局長興華：再一個月。"],["黃委員健豪：能不能加快一點？"],["趙局長興華：我們儘快，因為底下它必須整個要清空才可以。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我建議如果未來還有相關的工程，要通車就一次通車，不然民眾會覺得這個是不是就像我標題上寫的，好像是為了趕520前有個通車典禮把它辦一辦，當然我還是要肯定，我沒有否定你們的付出，但是要通車，我們希望一併把所有交通節點都打開，再來辦通車，要塞車一次塞完，不要好像辦通車典禮，大家期待不會塞車，結果下面還在塞車，好不好？"],["趙局長興華：是，我們是想說做完的上面部分都全部開放，底下只是把工區整理……"],["黃委員健豪：好啦！沒關係，我是希望趕快啦！這個東西要說明，跟民眾說明清楚，不要讓大家誤會覺得好像……就大家真的覺得520通車好像是假的，國道通了，但是下面沒通，尤其在上下班的時候，大家情緒都很激烈。","接下來回到今天本席的主題──橋梁的問題，你看我們找到的數據如果有誤的話，請你們更正一下，全國橋梁大概從我們拿到數據裡面有2萬2,982座橋梁，分屬不同的機關在管理。為什麼特別會感謝召委辦今天的專案報告，因為這個問題其實我本來也很想問，就是從2019年南方澳大橋垮下來之後，大家才發現當初南方澳大橋是臺灣省政府還在的時候委託宜蘭縣興建，然後是基隆港務局管理，後來是港務公司接手，但是到2016年的時候，宜蘭縣政府跟港務公司都以為這座橋是縣府在管轄的，就是說一座橋從興建到管理，到後來交接出去之後，好像各單位都不知道那座橋到底還是誰的。那以現在所屬這個數據裡面來看，從交通部、內政部、各單位到各縣市政府，縣政府當然很多嘛！有兩萬多座橋梁，這樣子在管理上面、在維護上面是不是會有多頭馬車、權責不清的問題？交通部有沒有希望建立一個全國一致性的橋梁主管機關？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員說明一下，有關剛才特別提到南方澳斷橋之後，其實整個行政院有檢討，如剛才委員特別提到的，各個部會轄下管理很多的橋梁，甚至在當時的交通委員會也有做有關這樣的討論，但是討論了以後認為其實現在因為有各個養護或管理的權責在，所以後來的決議還是分開來做相關的管理。但是整個系統也好，統計也好，或者是檢測的方式也好，或者爾後的檢測督導，我想也都做了一個很明確的權責分工，而且行政院……"],["黃委員健豪：現階段維護管理也一樣是分散在各單位嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，因為不管是哪一個，它其實都是道路的一部分，一條道路不可能說這座橋是歸哪個單位，但是這座橋是屬於地方在管的或者是屬於以前國土署在管，被劃歸在其他單位，所以有這樣問題，但是我也跟委員報告，整體上有關全國橋梁反而是提升到行政院其定有一個維護管理計畫，在那個計畫下面就會有相關管理權責、督導權責、執行養護的權責在裡頭。"],["黃委員健豪：那主責單位是誰？現在有主責單位嗎？次長，因為時間不夠，所以我要給你一個案例，我想大家常常講臺日友好，以日本為例，隔壁的日本，它的橋梁有72萬座，它當然也是有很多單位，包含國土交通省、高速公路司，然後都道府縣各地都有在管，但同樣的，它的國土交通省除了對自己本身，就像你們現在交通部一樣，你對自己的橋梁有管理之外，同時它對於其他單位橋梁的維修、檢測，也都是國土交通省一併來負責。今天本席只是第一個PPT而已，時間就不夠了，本席要提出的是，是不是未來交通部應該擔起管理或是至少維護及檢修的責任？橋梁總要有一個主責機關，好，如果今天交通部沒辦法的話，誰要來做這件事情？不然如果到時候又出現問題的時候，好像各單位互相不瞭解這座橋梁，因為包括我等一下本來要提的，其實全臺灣有很多橋梁，30年以上含不詳年齡的，就是不知道多久的，將近有1萬5,000座橋梁，甚至不知道它蓋了多久，所以這些橋梁如果沒有一個主責機關來管理、維修的話，萬一後續出問題的時候，或是平常沒有人維護的話，沒有人知道，你手上可能沒數據啊！所以是不是有機會交通部應該往這個方向去調整管理的方式，次長？"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上，這裡可以看到因為它有不同的屬性，還有地點的不同，所以才會現在的橋梁即便是在各個不同單位在管養，但是到了上面的督導單位，原則上大部分如果是交通部跟內政部在負責督導，不會產生沒有人管的情形，所以整體上經過檢討之後，還是認為依照現行機制處理，如果委員有必要的話，我們可以提供一個分析報告，讓委員詳細來瞭解。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長，主席謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員發言完畢。","現在請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-12","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","游顥","蔡其昌","黃健豪","林俊憲","林沛祥","邱若華","許智傑","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","陳俊宇","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那我們是不是請交通部我們政次還有我們公路局陳局長請陳次長 陳局長委員好次長好一開始當然要先肯定說我們禮拜一也就是這個禮拜一"},{"start":22.554,"end":51.425,"text":"在這個臺中的七十四七十四號街國道運行的工程能夠順利的通車要感謝說我們交通部公路局有大家的這個努力讓臺中的這個交通任督二脈終於來打通了高速公路局高速公路局抱歉高速公路局公路局也有啊七十四七十四號這一段就是感謝大家這樣子分工合作能夠把這個東西做好但是馬上就要但是了我們看一下這個是我本席禮拜二禮拜三晚上剛好經過我發現的一件事情"},{"start":52.583,"end":60.376,"text":"雖然說我們這個74街國道1號的這個聯絡道做好了那的確是一個很很大的工程也很大的很重要的工程但是74這個"},{"start":63.479,"end":87.715,"text":"快速道路很多的閘道包含崇德那段的閘道好像到我昨天晚上開的時候都還沒有開通我想問一下為什麼跟委員報告那我們在這個系統叫大系統叫到施工的時候他總共封了三個閘道包括崇德的西路那還有北屯二的一個東出跟那個東出東路跟西出"},{"start":88.456,"end":89.377,"text":"因為我覺得民眾的期待是說這個"},{"start":112.984,"end":135.181,"text":"通車典禮辦了之後﹐不只是可以接國道而已﹐包含過往﹐直接下去﹐直接市區道路這一段﹐也應該一併的開放﹐因為如果你不開放﹐其實就變成上面﹐比較通暢﹐但是下面照樣在塞車﹐因為其實是﹐下面的這個道路﹐它其實就是重要的幹﹐然後連接了所謂大亞北屯西屯﹐這個﹐這個﹐這個下面的這道路﹐如果因為你這個工區﹐"},{"start":135.862,"end":136.843,"text":"我們盡快 因為我們這個底下他必須要整個要清空才可以"},{"start":152.273,"end":178.262,"text":"我是建議啦 如果未來還有相關的工程要通車就一次通車 不然民眾會覺得說 這個是不是就像我標題上寫的好像是為了趕520錢的通車典禮把它辦一辦當然我還是要肯定 我沒有否定你們的這個的付出但是要通車我們希望一併的把這個所有的交通節點都打開再來辦通車 要塞車一次塞完不要說好像辦通車典禮大家期待不會塞車 結果下面還在塞車"},{"start":179.202,"end":204.39,"text":"我們是想說做完的上面的部分都全部開放那底下是在只是把工區整理好啦沒關係我是希望趕快啦這個東西齁要說明跟民眾說明清楚不要讓大家誤會覺得好像就大家真的覺得這個520通車好像是假的齁國道通了但是下面沒通這個還是尤其在上下班的時候大家情緒都很激烈好接下來回到本今天本期的主題啊我想這個橋梁的問題"},{"start":206.607,"end":224.423,"text":"一看到我們找到的數據,如果有誤的話,要跟證一下我想這全國的橋梁大概從我們拿到的數據裡面有22982個橋梁那分屬不同的機關在管理那為什麼今天特別會趕緊召回班的這個今天的專案報告因為這個問題其實我本來也很想問的"},{"start":228.547,"end":256.07,"text":"就從2019年這南方大橋垮下來之後大家才發現當初的南方的橋是臺灣省政府還在的時候委託宜蘭縣興建那後來是基隆港務局管理那後來是港務公司來接手但是到這個2016年的時候呢宜蘭縣政府跟港務公司都以為這座橋是縣府在管轄的就說一座橋從興建到管理到後來交接出去之後好像各單位都不知道那個橋到底是誰的"},{"start":256.75,"end":274.549,"text":"那以現在所屬這個數據裡面來看到從交通部內政部各單位到各縣市政府縣市政府當然很多嘛有這樣2萬多座橋梁那這樣子在管理上面在維護上面是不是會有多頭馬車全車不限的問題那交通部有沒有希望來建立一個全國儀式性的橋梁的主管機關"},{"start":278.149,"end":292.966,"text":"我跟那個委員說明一下有關剛才特別提到南方號斷橋之後其實整個行政院大概有檢討剛才委員特別提到的各個部會其他管下有所管理的很多的價量"},{"start":293.266,"end":299.075,"text":"甚至在當時的交通委員會也有做有關這樣的一個討論但是討論了以後認為其實現在因為有各個這個養護或管理的一個權責在所以還是後來的決議還是分開來做相關的一個管理"},{"start":309.87,"end":311.272,"text":"這個維護管理所以現在的維護管理也一樣是分散在各單位嗎?現階段?對"},{"start":333.009,"end":360.067,"text":"對,因為他其實他是不管是哪一個他都其實是道路的一部分一個道路不可能說這個橋是歸哪個單位但是這個橋是屬於地方在管的或是屬於以前是國土署在管的那你化歸這個其他單位所以有這樣的問題那但是我也跟委員報告整體上有關這個全國橋梁反而是提升到行政院他定有一個維護管理的一個計畫在那個計畫下面"},{"start":363.108,"end":390.941,"text":"在那個計畫的下面他就會有相關的管理的權責、督導的權責、執行養護的權責那主的單位是誰?現在有主的單位嗎?市長因為時間剩不夠了所以我要給你一個案例啦我想他常常講台日也好、台日也好那以日本為例隔壁日本他的橋有72萬他當然也是有很多單位包含說國土交通省、高速公路司、然後督導府縣各地都有在管但他同樣的他的國土交通省除了"},{"start":392.061,"end":414.822,"text":"對自己本身就像你現在交通部一樣你對自己的橋梁有管理之外他其實同時他對於其他單位的橋梁的維修看這個這個檢測也都是這個國土交通省他一定一併來負責所以今天本期只是第一個PPTA就時間不夠了今天這個本期要提是說是不是未來交通部應該擔起這個管理或是說至少維護"},{"start":415.623,"end":415.983,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":432.269,"end":455.757,"text":"30年以上的就有含不詳的年齡就不知道多久的有1萬將近1萬5千座橋梁30年以上所以不知道要蓋多久所以這些橋梁如果沒有一個主責機關來管理來維修的話萬一後續出問題的時候或是平常沒有人維護的話沒有人知道你手上可能也沒數據啊所以是不是有機會交通部應該往這個方向去調整這管理的方式市長"},{"start":458.687,"end":483.914,"text":"報告一下那個原則上因為是他有這可以看到他有不同的一個屬性還有地點的一個不同所以才會說現在的橋梁即便是在各個不同單位在管養但是到了上面的督導單位原則上大部分如果是交通部跟內政部在負責督導所以不會有產生說沒有人管的一個情形"},{"start":485.195,"end":485.295,"text":"主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152596","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30d65148b908df6e1f3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0ffbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:42:12 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":"來 有沒有問題 預算上面 來局長確實 就是說當初原預估的預算那因為整個設計 設計之後大概包括這個原物料的一個這個提升 成本的提升所以我們現在設計之後的這個兩座橋梁的這個預估費用是72億多從60億變70幾億"},{"start":108.539,"end":130.591,"text":"那如果說因為局裡面的話是通案的計畫是這個省道改善計畫如果放在這邊的話當然就會影響到其他的省道的一個改善沒有錯所以我們是設計完之後的話就是這個經費可能在省改的計畫如果說要放在這邊的話也希望行政院就是說可以把我們的省改計畫規模再擴大所以這個部分我想我們會設計之後會提報這個經費的額度來跟行政院爭取局長我想"},{"start":138.936,"end":155.093,"text":"這個你很清楚就是說我擔心的跟你其實想像的是一樣啦就大概預算因為總共從60億變70幾億如果用省到這個改省改的預算的話那我擔心的就是你的預算規模如果不夠大他會排擠到其他嘛"},{"start":155.754,"end":174.811,"text":"那第二個所以我今天也做了一個臨時提案就是說建請可不可以把這個大安溪跟大甲溪橋的改建列一個專案這是兩條路啦當然這兩條路都要行政院啦所以本席提案是建請你們去做評估看哪一個方法是比較好"},{"start":175.451,"end":199.918,"text":"是擴大這個審改預算的規模來把大安溪大安溪橋做好還是另外一條路但是本席絕對不會走第三條路就是我請你放心我絕對不會寫一個這個條例我絕對不會寫一個大甲溪大安溪改建條例這一點是我跟國民黨最大的不同我都我從當副院長開始我循規蹈矩"},{"start":200.851,"end":217.37,"text":"依照權力分立的原則依照國家重大建設你們也要相關進行評估從可行性評估一路研議然後開始一直做做到現在你們大概10成都抓出來了然後也可以做了都沒有問題現在剩下錢"},{"start":218.331,"end":241.164,"text":"那錢呢怎麼來立法院委員不可以增加你們的預算所以我只能提一個建請案就我的臨時提了一個建請案建請什麼事情建請你們要想辦法要嘛行政院要做一個決定把審改的預算規模擴大或者大甲溪大安溪就列一個專案的預算來進行處理市長這樣可不可以"},{"start":242.095,"end":268.134,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關支持這個大甲大安溪的改建這個這一個委員所關心的事項交通部一定是全力支持包含公路總局公路局但是就有關經費的部分我們也很謝謝委員的一個提議我們會朝這個方向來處理但是呢我也跟委員報告其實這整個計畫的期程他的不是一年的所以即便是看到是其實我知道我知道他分年實施我知道"},{"start":268.994,"end":285.474,"text":"所以其實分年在編的時候當在審改裡頭它的經費也是有限但是整體上當然是先有一個專案的裁員大家會覺得比較心安但是如果就這個審改其實它是一個滾動檢討有很多的計畫也都是在這裡"},{"start":285.834,"end":290.575,"text":"市長今天的靈體只是讓你們去思考的方向多一個啦因為不管怎麼樣我知道就省改預算他也是分年執行嘛但是問題是局長他還是希望規模還是要擴大不管怎麼樣他還是一條蠻大的錢嘛"},{"start":312.961,"end":334.956,"text":"所以站在局長的角度他還是擔心排擠所以他希望能夠預算規模擴大所以不管怎樣錢一定要比以前多那到底把審改預算規模擴大比較好或者是我們列一個大甲溪大安溪的這個專案的預算請行政院來支持比較好所以我提了一個今天提了一個建請案一個臨時提案裡面建請你們來做這個評估所以你們趕快"},{"start":339.519,"end":353.752,"text":"這個我透過今天的決議也建請你們重視這個問題好不好但是千萬切記喔如果特別條例是可以的你要告訴我我講過嘛我有太多特別條例要提這個我也會寫啊大安溪大甲溪特別條例"},{"start":355.173,"end":381.537,"text":"就我要你們做,這個就,對不對,這不會通啦,所以我還是收幾句啦,我真認真要改善,因為大甲溪、大安溪在我們台中,做一個台中市民而言,這個是海線很重要的交通要道,每天經過那裡上班、下班,所以它的安全問題,它的這個美觀的問題,因為新的橋梁改建之後,我相信你們的設計,現在的橋梁設計都會有很有特色嘛,"},{"start":382.037,"end":403.505,"text":"所以我相信對地方的地警來講他幫忙也很大當然更重要就是安全跟方便好這是第一個我謝謝交通部來全力支持本席的這個計畫那第二個我看了一個報導我做一個台中市民我實在是有點難過我看了一下去年度六都的交通事故的一個統計表"},{"start":405.425,"end":426.852,"text":"這個作為臺中市民發現臺中市的事故排名第一也就算了就事故最多死傷也最多而且這個比例這個數字實在是太驚人了第二名的桃園事故事件臺中市是7萬2桃園第二名桃園市剩下4萬7"},{"start":429.158,"end":449.835,"text":"那當然臺北市只有兩萬三嘛那臺北市如果跟臺中市來比那個差距真的太遠了那以死傷人數來講臺中高達九萬六千多人第二名的六萬三所以人家第二名開始都很接近就只有臺中市最特殊事故最多死傷最嚴重我想請問部長"},{"start":454.724,"end":466.064,"text":"一個縣市的交通做不好事故那麼多臺中市有沒有跟交通部提出任何他們有什麼改進的計畫或者需求"},{"start":468.954,"end":498.335,"text":"我先簡單就是有關這樣的一個數據呈現其實交通部非常的關切所以我們在應該是在去年也有請臺中市特別到交通部來做專案的一個報告那當然還有另外一個我們也發現這樣的一個數據我們也正在會同相關的單位因為這個數據的呈現我們覺得他是在今年開始有一個大幅度的一個去年是嗎"},{"start":498.795,"end":518.09,"text":"去年就是有一大幅度我們覺得那個呃呃呈現是是有問題的所以我們也會會同呃相關單位尤其是警警政所來看他的統計的資料上是不是有些市長我的意思就是說臺中市做了一個專案報告之後第一個他們有沒有解釋什麼原因第二個更重要他們有沒有提出什麼改進的方法"},{"start":520.118,"end":535.295,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們也有注意到這種情形他大致上有提出一些原因啦但是我們覺得說還需要再跟他們進一步去做了解那有沒有改進的方法那我們事實上也有跟我們事實上所講"},{"start":536.716,"end":555.408,"text":"以及有邀請他們到我們的聯席匯報做專案的報告就是請他們從工程交易監理執法這個面向提出一些改進的他們認為最大原因是什麼?臺中市政府認為最大的原因為什麼會臺中這麼糟糕這個這麼可恥的數字都跑出來了為什麼?"},{"start":556.116,"end":580.077,"text":"目前初步他們是說他們的車輛數是有增加幅度比較多大概是有幾個原因所以車輛數量多就曝光度高啦但是這樣的一個基於人民安全的我覺得是值得再講的增加的台中市的車輛比例有跟台北市跟其他縣市比起來有跟這個成比例嗎"},{"start":582.469,"end":605.746,"text":"你們覺得成比例嗎?就是我們市故事人家的兩倍,我們車輛有人家的兩倍嗎?不要吧,不到兩倍啦,快兩倍了,車輛有人家的快兩倍嗎?有嗎?我跟委員報告,這就是我們需要再進一步跟他們來探討的。OK,我今天特別提這個數字,我認為作為一個台中市的國會議員,應該來了解關心並要求這個事情啦。"},{"start":607.261,"end":634.238,"text":"這個我在這裡講這個話因為我不是臺中市議員嘛臺中市有很大的責任但如果中央我們可以協助的事情或者我們中央應該督導的事情我請交通部一定要擔負起這個責任就地方政府他各自當然他你不能全部管他嘛市長重不重視他關不關心他認為臺中市的人命值不值錢這個市長他這個身負最大的責任"},{"start":635.342,"end":652.458,"text":"但是我們不可以放任地方政府就是我們中央該有的去督導他去要求他或者甚至應該要協助他我覺得我們都應該要去做到或者我做一個台中市民我看到這個數字我覺得要怕死人說台中市市發生什麼事"},{"start":653.908,"end":667.304,"text":"第二名才四萬七我們七萬二然後接著四萬六四萬四三萬六兩萬三當然台北市看起來很低嘛但不管怎麼樣人家都四三四萬嘛我們台中就要七萬多這數字極為不合極為誇張極為誇張"},{"start":673.15,"end":699.237,"text":"所以請次長多多來關心一下啦好不好到底台中市發生什麼事情我希望你們也能夠一方面督導他然後如果我們中央是我們的權責該協助的我們不分黨派協助他因為這是台中市民的生命財產好不好謝謝補充一句話就是我們有派專家學者去就近去跟他們一起共同討論看如何解決OK謝謝謝謝次長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc303aab2451fbaba0bb3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fd5f0a589f4d4aac65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:33:47 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那這個部分的話我還是要請這個我們的交通部對於這個評鑑結果 因為大家其實都非常關心啊那這個也是考核來講 這個有其必要性嘛 對不對那有其必要性的話 那大家民眾以及許多的各界董事希望能夠看得到那他的這些的公告跟內容"},{"start":101.605,"end":102.346,"text":"目前來講這0403大地震"},{"start":122.297,"end":143.408,"text":"我相信說其實我們絕對會視為這個地震這是非常可怕而且我們都希望是能夠不僅天佑花蓮也是天佑臺灣我們絕對不會用戲謔開玩笑的語氣來講到任何的災難所以我們都希望說大家都是通道於命還有大家都捧心那我想就教一下"},{"start":144.028,"end":155.247,"text":"市長就在目前來講在地震過後全台各地的這個震後有關於橋梁的檢查盤點的一個狀況還有沒有一個可以跟社會各界長舉說明"},{"start":157.568,"end":160.929,"text":"那個就是說整個的一個就是這個地震的區域範圍我們跟0403的這個有關的我們公路局已經檢查205座那海灘的縣市"},{"start":186.174,"end":202.805,"text":"主要是在這個花蓮 花蓮縣然後部分有些應該在台東這樣子好 那本席就直接建議好不好因為這個地震它那麼大型的地震是全台各縣市的話其實都有受到這個影響"},{"start":204.086,"end":220.436,"text":"包括看到的震度,不管是花蓮、宜蘭、南投也好、台中甚至苗栗或是包括雲林跟嘉義,其他震度其實有時候我們看到這個數據來講都是非常強的所以我會本期在這裡建議,交通部要針對這個更多的縣市的橋梁"},{"start":223.798,"end":224.859,"text":"再做一個更通盤的檢討"},{"start":245.572,"end":248.474,"text":"市長您同樣對於交通的業務及事務是非常熟悉本期在這裡也想要再追蹤一個案子的進度"},{"start":273.712,"end":292.935,"text":"上次我跟王宏威委員有針對高鐵的這個公安事件跟這個酒駕的這個檢測那時候是你也知道也在質詢台那時候在財政委員會聯席的時候有提到那想要請教目前的這個檢討報告交通部對於高鐵那這個重大的有公安危機的部分那結果如何因為就4月開始到現在從那時候記者會再跟市長您提到的話也過了兩個禮拜了因為都快過520了"},{"start":303.525,"end":321.081,"text":"跟委員報告我們在5月3號就當天執行了相關的檢查作業根據鐵路法第41條的規定那檢查報告也已經出來我們要求高鐵公司就這個霧電的這個情形修正他的作業程序跟規範"},{"start":322.554,"end":345.702,"text":"那這個部分大概是我們主要的一個要求至於執行的這個部分我們經過了解當天確實是有這樣的一個情況那要求高鐵公司必須要加強現場的一些確認跟督導的作業那我想說這個還是盡量讓社會組織一下交通部的後續的這個處理狀況是 我們檢查的結果會公告在我們的網站上面"},{"start":345.882,"end":362.134,"text":"OK好那最後啊本期還是要針對在上個禮拜有發生一個婦人她在過斑馬線道路的時候她原生那時候是在禮上結果到時候她不小心滑倒還就被車輾過去那到最後不管是在網路上或是專家有討論啊"},{"start":363.195,"end":387.488,"text":"在目前的斑馬線抗滑係數可能因為時間久了所以到最後他也會讓路人在行進間的時候就滑倒所以那個夫人滑倒的剛好有車就扭過去造成這起悲劇那其實我在想在這個時候通常都是可以避免的所以本席想要就教說在目前的這個六都的這個抗滑係數的這種在標線上那以及說"},{"start":388.308,"end":393.56,"text":"在非六都的部分在這個抗滑係數這個標線的要求目前的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":398.411,"end":425.704,"text":"跟委員報告就是交通工程規範裡面就是說這個抗華係數BPM要至少45以上那我們自己審到的部分我們要求就是比較嚴格我們要求到55以上那這個部分的話是不是就是說他在這個施作比較久以後抗華係數降低的部分我想我們會再要求各地方政府因為很多的這個市區路段的路口的行川線那個部分是屬於地方政府在管養的那我們再來要求地方政府要來做"},{"start":426.064,"end":434.49,"text":"規範是全國一致的那只是說因為在這個市區道路不管六都跟非六都市區道路的這一個相關的這個標線的話是屬於地方政府所主管的"},{"start":446.238,"end":464.966,"text":"省道的部分我們自己有要求要更嚴格的標準那本期這邊還是建議就是說第一就是在那一期的交通事件上其實是可以避免的因為時間久的標籤導致富人滑倒到最後被免過的悲劇其實是可以避免的所以這也涉及到有沒有可能到最後變成有國賠的問題如果他超過這個系數的時間那如果他是不合這個規定的"},{"start":469.668,"end":469.808,"text":"油耗委員"}]}},{"id":"152594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30478aa2b41258e3283ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fea4ab2856517d8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:22:41 - 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問題找出來預防勝過治療所以你原因都不知道阿只有補錢給他阿我有補阿我有修所以這個部分"},{"start":267.808,"end":290.683,"text":"要請正次因為你是政策指導所以這個部分應該正次我提出這個是很正當一個理由也是老百姓用路人他不知不覺之中橋梁斷了這對他生命威脅那我們的主管機關這個部分真的要特別去注意一下"},{"start":291.523,"end":306.347,"text":"我跟委員報告一下原則上這些橋梁要做檢測他其實一定是有經過相關的分析評估所以他一定有知道他的原因之所在抱歉只是因為我們現在手頭上應該是沒有統計我們把它統計出來了以後政治政治這個送給我們交通委員會啊來做參考啦"},{"start":312.448,"end":332.904,"text":"以後對於這個這個這個預算的的的編類啊或什麼是否可以這個部分啊也大家可以有助以我們在審預算不肝酸的我們不會酸應該支持的我們會去支持我想理性立法委員是講理的啦也不是這個這個這個一味的做未反對而反對我們不會這樣好來另外一個來另外一個兩位局長這個趙局長跟那個來"},{"start":341.823,"end":355.008,"text":"有一個問題為什麼這些補強偏重於在雲林嘉義尤其我們的屏東他這個非常嚴重因為101座當中他佔了一半"},{"start":357.871,"end":383.212,"text":"這什麼原因來的陳局長我跟委員報告就是多數的是領海就是領海的一個就是說可能那個淫憤的一個侵蝕受淫害的一個侵蝕那有一些部分其實是因為他可能領海然後又比較小型的村裡道路通行的一個比較小型的一些橋梁那所以這個部分其實在之後的話"},{"start":383.892,"end":410.784,"text":"現在都有要求各地方政府其實都要落實檢測現在檢測的話其實這個通過要求以後都檢測幾乎是普遍支配好陳縣長你講這些是臨海的縣市這我完全同意啦也就是大家一直在講這個地形下陷這個問題啊這個屏東雲林嘉義是非常嚴重的所以這個你們可能要加以注意啦加以注意那我還是要拜託"},{"start":411.684,"end":412.444,"text":"請說明一下好不好"},{"start":433.629,"end":433.909,"text":"我坦白講"},{"start":454.511,"end":471.22,"text":"高鐵不管怎麼樣在監控儀器方面他們是下功夫的所以我們台鐵跟高鐵這兩者之中的監視儀器的方面的投入我們是缺乏的"},{"start":472.973,"end":493.704,"text":"高鐵他們是用心的所以他們會比任何一個地方所以這個地方我們要多投入一氣不會騙人目視會走光所以這個部分因為以我當民意代表的經驗目視就要看他那天心情好不好所以這個會"},{"start":495.825,"end":516.572,"text":"說實在在教育裡面就誤人子弟啦在工程裡面啦這真的這個這個把生命當成玩笑所以這個部分我要建議我們這次也好我們兩位局長這個部分最後一個主席給我一分鐘最後一個就是我們高速公路來照局長我們國道7號國道7號現在完全都訂案了沒有"},{"start":525.96,"end":538.83,"text":"跟委員報告大概路線都定案了可是為什麼一遍再變沒有沒有說一遍再變那就一個局部的地方大寮路段他有維護的調整維護的調整但是已經調整了好幾次了那個那個趙局長趙局長我知道"},{"start":544.214,"end":567.19,"text":"開路第一個最困難就是整個規劃還有遇到徵收是真的徵收也是很困難現在老百姓跟過去戒嚴時代完全不一樣這個我們也知道溝通但是我必須提醒趙局長這裡整個在變更的時候一定要非常小心讓老百姓知道為什麼他的工廠"},{"start":568.618,"end":597.586,"text":"就要閃過他的工廠到我的農地來這真的會不服氣的所以我想我們昭襲人也是南部地區的這南部都已經陳情到我這裡來所以就代表什麼就代表我們在規劃過程當中溝通不足然後一遍再遍老百姓會不服氣我們會再加一場的說明會好不好特別說明都會對啦因為我有接到這個陳情但是我也了解你們的痛苦"},{"start":598.126,"end":598.306,"text":"林國成議員"},{"start":616.903,"end":630.438,"text":"那這個你再變過來的時候那個老百姓是絕對不服氣所以這點我要提供給局長在這個部分請陳正式陳正式黃市長這個可能也要特別去注意一下好不好好來"},{"start":631.98,"end":632.02,"text":"林國成議員"}]}},{"id":"152593","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152593","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30b30d14fb92ca367c3ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0fc9653d96d06e67c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"09:14:19 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那就麻煩我們陳政次陳次長"},{"start":12.53,"end":38.951,"text":"市長委員好市長好請教一下就是我們之前在代委會有請教過就是我們可能高速公路或這個快速道路的橋梁結構安全的問題那我們因為各個橋梁可能因為在設計的年份不一樣的時候有不一樣設計的一個法規標準對不對所以說目前全台灣的公路系統的耐震強度並沒有一致這應該是沒錯嗎"},{"start":41.538,"end":61.331,"text":"是的,我們會都依照新的耐震規範不夠的部分就是後續在市經會補強那我針對這個部分,我不確定我們現在網路上有每個路段、橋梁的耐震設計強度的公開資料嗎?目前沒有那這部分可以公開讓民眾知道嗎?"},{"start":70.201,"end":85.526,"text":"我們可以提供我們哪些橋梁有在做耐震補強的那民眾想知道說我每天行走的可能每個可能通勤常走的路段的橋梁的設計強度可以耐幾級震"},{"start":87.811,"end":113.428,"text":"這個東西我想有些民眾他可能會知道嘛想知道嘛那這部分我們有沒有辦法做公開的資料我想我請高速公路局局長做聲明一下跟委員報告那基本上來講說所有的一個橋梁的設計他都有當年度的一個設計規範在做對那我們在針對就是說因為高速公路或是省道的部分都是有50年40年30年以前蓋的橋對所以不一樣我們都知道對"},{"start":114.429,"end":136.068,"text":"所以我們針對這些橋梁的部分我們有做一些處理就是說比較舊的橋梁都已經把它提升了新的規範的部分的差異大概是我沒有說你們做得不好我知道你們一直以來都有在做橋梁結構的補強那只是說民眾會想要知道現在就是剛好大地震過後嘛那民眾"},{"start":136.989,"end":153.092,"text":"當然會擔心自己平常行走的這個動線的橋梁的結構安全有沒有符合嘛但我知道我們都會定期檢測嘛但是民眾不知道說我們檢測是說我們要符合那幾級證或者說他設計的時候是幾級證可能小鎮我們常講小鎮小鎮不壞嘛中鎮可修嘛大鎮可能會怎麼樣"},{"start":161.795,"end":181.475,"text":"民眾想要知道這件事情這公開的資訊會有什麼樣的困難現在都符合這個條件了都符合這個條件嗎只是說我們有一些在規範的新的一個條件的一個調整比如說我們那個位移啊什麼那些的他有重新再檢核那必須要再做"},{"start":182.096,"end":192.026,"text":"公開我們橋梁耐震急速這件事情對我們來說有這麼的困難嗎民眾想知道我們可能現在民眾都知道可能會有危戰怎麼樣嗎那"},{"start":194.11,"end":215.635,"text":"可能現在譬如說我們現在有下載一些APP都會提前地震警報嘛地震來之前我們都會知道嘛如果說地震警報我們可能是急症結果我大概每天上班的時候我知道說如果說我們公開資訊的話可以知道說我這邊可以經歷幾急症大家就安心了嘛對不對大家會安心啊而不是說安全是我們口頭講嘛"},{"start":217.298,"end":243.576,"text":"安全是我們口頭講檢測符合標準是我們口頭講我知道你們不會騙人但是到底這個強度多大民眾不知道啊我跟委員報告一下原則上因為剛才講到其實在110年有一個耐震補強的一個新的規範公佈在那裡頭就叫耐七級震所以其實剛才兩位局長的說明都是我們所有的橋梁所以我們全台灣的橋梁應該都符合七級震以下不倒"},{"start":245.077,"end":267.294,"text":"在省道跟國道上我們現在是朝這個規範在做所以有關省道或國道全部完成了嗎他們現在正在做耐震補強的工作我的了解有的會在114年有的會在115年完成陸續的完成那相關耐震補強的橋梁省道會補強大概519座那高速公路部分原則上會完成1100多座的一個耐震補強"},{"start":267.654,"end":268.735,"text":"我們現在次長在這邊跟我承諾就是說我們可以公告一些資料"},{"start":289.213,"end":306.165,"text":"只要沒有在補強的名單上面就代表說他現在就符合7級強度不倒的一個規範那這些在補強中的可能會有相關具體的進度嘛那補強完成了之後就可以達成全國一致性高速公路跟神道7級都會達到7級嘛好不好那後續我不曉得那個相關的公告"},{"start":314.11,"end":315.99,"text":"請教一下我們遇到地震"},{"start":340.359,"end":367.525,"text":"或許是我自己知識不足啦我們有沒有相關的道路規範就是說我們民眾如果知道要發生地震了那我們的駕駛他應該要有一個怎樣的一個駕駛行為因為可能我過去說說到的宣導可能不太夠我們有沒有跟我們的用路人告訴他們說我們譬如現在行駛在高速公路上面100公里嘛那可能遇到了急症還怎麼樣我們要不要反應還是我們就是像一般就繼續開這樣子"},{"start":369.42,"end":372.07,"text":"有沒有這邊不同強度的地震有不同的一個指引這樣子"},{"start":374.905,"end":399.156,"text":"這個基本也跟委員報告原則上應該是遇到強震是應該要停車那我們這次有那個0403那個時間當下7點58分的那個所有的那個西西天黑影像我們有收集我們也在觀察說駕駛行為的狀況其實突然停車也是蠻危險的啦會被提出來我們會來觀察看所以我們會有一些指引出來吧因為我們現在來講是說地震當下我們沒辦法立即展示到那個上面的資訊系統啦"},{"start":400.296,"end":420.222,"text":"可以啊現在那個我們現在手機都可以下載APP了你們的系統串接應該不是問題啊沒有沒有地震地震那個氣象組給我們要到大概7分鐘以後才收到可是他們不是有地震預警系統我現在國家級警報的部分對啊可能說10秒後會有幾級地震啊這個"},{"start":422.623,"end":426.385,"text":"因為我們現在有CMS系統嘛如果說我們真的對這個地震有相關的指引出來的時候"},{"start":449.499,"end":466.873,"text":"民眾都受到相關的教育程度之後有一個共識那我希望我們高中局之後在也可以跟這個地震預警系統做個串接在相關的CMS上面去做一個提醒因為不是每個人都用手機的預警的APP那如果說我們也能夠在相關的"},{"start":468.774,"end":487.46,"text":"這公告上面的話提前讓民眾知道然後大家都有相同的一個駕駛的觀念的話那可能對於行車會比較安全跟委員報告我們會來持續來瞭解看怎樣來做那我們也瞭解國外的狀況是怎麼做再來一看怎樣來做好好好真的麻煩謝謝市長謝謝各位的局長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152592","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e04d0b5fde611b329d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0f3d997d3b3f5f9fd45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:21:14 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10:27:34","影片長度":"00:06:20","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「學校午餐法制化」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-16","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:21:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-16T10:27:34+08:00","duration":380,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.35784375,"end":380.17409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":22.489,"text":"感謝我們教育委員會還有我們在場各位專家學者那麼對於我們學校孩子裡面大家這個營養午餐的重視跟關心我想在這邊呢特別也回應很多我們包含家長還有我們很多的這個教育界人士其實在學校裡面我們不但讓他吃得飽"},{"start":23.65,"end":23.69,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":39.352,"end":41.093,"text":"李玉玲﹑黃建豪﹑邱振鈞委員﹑20位委員提出了學校飲食健康促進法"},{"start":61.423,"end":61.463,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":84.756,"end":86.478,"text":"通過這個法令的一個制定﹐可以讓整個台灣﹐能夠不要變成大家各行其事﹐我們當然也知道﹐比如說我們在各縣市政府﹐各地方來講﹐"},{"start":100.256,"end":105.698,"text":"因為大家資源的不一樣或者財政能力的不一樣所以可能在營養午餐的部分可能會變成一國多制而透過由中央來制定相關的法令可以解決這樣各行其事而且我們會希望不管你今天是在都市或者是在偏鄉大家的孩子都能夠達到同樣的待遇比如我舉例來講"},{"start":129.807,"end":129.887,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":159.625,"end":159.665,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":175.002,"end":175.382,"text":"國中學童的肥胖率從25.4上升到29.2"},{"start":203.696,"end":208.137,"text":"我們能說他吃得不好嗎可能吃得太好但是吃得不夠營養然後造成孩童的肥胖甚至可能長期以來反而造成我們醫療資源上的負擔所以我們其實會希望的是透過這個法令除了讓我們的孩子吃得好吃得飽能夠吃得安心之外我們也希望能夠在他們的飲食教育裡面"},{"start":232.321,"end":256.75,"text":"也就營養午餐他應該成為教育的一環他不單純只是一個午餐而已因為他天天要吃所以他當然應該對飲食的教育也應該放在裡面還有包含他的習食教育也就是怎麼樣管理剩食我覺得這個部分也能夠透過這個法令能夠把教育的精神放在裡面"},{"start":257.99,"end":258.03,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":279.111,"end":287.076,"text":"建立一個所謂的食材的供應中心如果必要的時候建立食材供應中心能夠確保我們營養午餐校園裡面的它的食材是有履歷認證的它不是來路不明的或者它可能會受到食安衝擊的但是另外一方面我們也希望"},{"start":302.745,"end":302.785,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":323.146,"end":323.266,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":348.55,"end":348.77,"text":"臺北市立法委員．"},{"start":377.276,"end":377.697,"text":"郭玉琴委員"}]}},{"id":"152591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30b62cfd0ba31e52549d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0fef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:01:49 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全國高級中學家長大聯盟我們有全國的會員在北中南東離島都有大部分都是高中的會長副會長所組成我個人曾經擔任108學年度109學年度的師大附中的家長會會長"},{"start":418.137,"end":442.208,"text":"我們的孩子現在是大三跟大一我們的孩子從小學開始就有參與營養午餐我自己也參任新義國小的一個家養午餐的委員我想我後面有一些背景的圖可以給各位參考一下這個是一家媒體所做的營養午餐剛剛有提到它的費用補助各縣市的一個狀況下一張"},{"start":446.024,"end":457.377,"text":"這個 剛剛委員很多人也提到嘛沒有統一的收費機制漲價的問題也很複雜就是收費到底 因為我們全台灣22縣市目前有10個縣市營養午餐是免費的OK 這個問題也很複雜再來下一張"},{"start":463.935,"end":480.761,"text":"我們現在營養午餐的形態大家都知道有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營那各縣市的比例又是如何我們發現北部的好像比較多是民辦民營或公辦民營中南部比較多是公辦公營我不是幫團善業者講話因為我現在看到我們的很多專法裡面特別有提到一件事情叫做自設廚房"},{"start":493.345,"end":519.359,"text":"如果我們設的專法未來是要銜接現況都要朝自設廚房的方向去走行得通嗎我覺得這個部分是值得我們來思考的一個非常重要的一個問題我覺得自設廚房當然是最好但是困難度也非常高我想我在各種公聽會我都提到一個非常重要問題我們營養午餐現在在學校是代辦費用所以它定位是代辦費"},{"start":520.62,"end":546.792,"text":"但是呢 也有媒體問到一個問題各縣市有那麼多縣市是不用錢的它是不是變成福利政策那我們現在要立這個專法它是教育政策嗎我覺得這個定位可能要先講清楚第二個 這個專法我們希望說它的範圍對於公立學校能夠從幼教我們目前多半只規範到高中職但是我希望公立的大學也能夠納入做一個考量"},{"start":547.552,"end":547.752,"text":"公辦民營：熱食部：收費問題"},{"start":571.607,"end":598.757,"text":"第一 孩子你去學校 今天吃的午餐好不好吃喜不喜歡 因為喜歡他才會再吃嘛第二個就是說 這個午餐的收費是怎麼樣再來我們才會關心營養健康跟食安的問題我想收費的問題呢 已經有一些不同的人跟我反應我也特別問了一下嘉義地區某國小的校長他說他們學校現在營養午餐 因為是公辦公營他的收費只有27塊"},{"start":600.984,"end":619.782,"text":"各位臺北市我們昨天還跟一個朋友在聊他的小孩在某國中臺北市某國中民辦民營的收費是65塊那對於我們家長來講同一所剛剛就有我們的專家提到說同一條路上都有不同的收費機制我們同樣的國民家長繳費為什麼有這麼多元"},{"start":622.364,"end":622.904,"text":"教育及文化委員會：柯志恩"},{"start":642.11,"end":642.15,"text":"主席"},{"start":659.648,"end":677.051,"text":"各位這樣的東西就像我剛剛為什麼說那個表這樣的一個現象在我們教育部應該知道在我們所有的地方非常普遍我們可不可以每一個學校的營養午餐都有營養師至於他到底是依區域依人數還是依怎麼樣我覺得可不可以再重新規劃不要那個什麼40班一個營養師那種規定我們能不能打破這個參考再來就是說這個"},{"start":685.473,"end":702.054,"text":"我們的 剛剛很多人提到一個問題就是哪個要多少專業的人我們現在的營養午餐為什麼要立專法我們有專業高品質的要求可是我們做這件事情的所有人幾乎都是兼職的我們要兼職的人做出專業的水平可能嗎"},{"start":703.415,"end":727.424,"text":"我覺得這個東西是值得我們思考所以我們在專法裡面也應該要好好的去規定這些再來我很贊同剛剛有一位我們專家提到的檢法因為這個校長他有提到說營養午餐只是日常的一小部分可是關於午餐還有被其他單位綁死的彈性空間加上專法他擔心這專法如果沒有配套措施到位學校的行政沒有人要做了"},{"start":728.223,"end":756.932,"text":"各位我們的專訪做下去的目的是希望孩子吃得開心吃得健康但是這個部分很有必要最後我提到一點就是說我希望我們不要拘泥於三菜一湯的這種觀念因為我們小孩子現在飲食太多元的我們孩子只有在特餐的時候吃飯吃得特別開心我們能不能天天試特餐我們在菜單規劃這一塊能不能有一個專門的方式能夠讓各校可以參考孩子能夠吃得開心吃得健康這是我們家長最大的期望謝謝大家"},{"start":757.984,"end":758.524,"text":"王洪威委員"},{"start":774.449,"end":794.12,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位夥伴大家早安基本上來講因為時間有限所以我就直接照著今天的講綱做一些簡單的說明第一個有關於怎麼樣才能夠營養健康安心其實很簡單專職才能專責已經很多先進講過了所以我建議立法的重點應該是在管制疏失責任"},{"start":795,"end":823.235,"text":"在個人的部分限制他未來的職業我的意思是說如果出問題的話在公司的部分當然就是限制他的設立跟重罰那目前有類似的機制但是我覺得不夠重講直白一點那再來就是我們希望立法的部分能夠一開始就做好驗食的工作重視源頭管制這個部分沒有做其實很多東西等到吃下肚子才出問題那就是衛生局的事了那再來就是營養健康的前提是剛才有先進講過了要吃啊"},{"start":824.671,"end":851.742,"text":"現在問題是我們有時候半開玩笑講說那我們今天去吃一頓不健康的什麼意思就是好吃的通常不營養也不健康那這是目前最大的問題尤其是等一下下一題我會提到叫做是不是能夠透過老師的飲食或營養教育就逼孩子能吃不好意思現在是不能強迫的所以基本上來講我們的建議是營養是很重要很多專職都很重要但是目前我們對廚師這個部分好像包含我們的禁用都是叫做廚工"},{"start":852.822,"end":852.942,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":873.994,"end":895.062,"text":"原頭採購的部分 簡單講我們建議未來真的要強調資本化 等一下後面我會再主張避免一些零碎採購 一些小公司或小的什麼進場那這樣的話 因為他們第一個也沒有能力負責 第二個他沒有能力做大宗採購 沒有利潤 於是基本上來講東西就不會好吃簡單來說就是現在有什麼剩的食材 就吃什麼東西 這是現實"},{"start":897.864,"end":899.868,"text":"2.我們是不是應該藉此推動飲食教育?"},{"start":911.796,"end":914.898,"text":"中華民國法律規定老師沒有管教權,只有管教義務"},{"start":926.747,"end":951.158,"text":"當你不能罰只能管的時候現在就在做啊每天中午吃飯老師都在陪吃飯都在教孩子正確的飲食習慣都在教營養學可是他不吃整桶倒掉的時候你一點責都沒有這才是目前我們遇到最大的困境而且你也不能逼他說必須要把裝多少吃多少我們都在呼籲但是他裝多少就倒掉多少你也管不了這就是最現實的東西所以如果只是立法再去強調老師責任的話"},{"start":952.378,"end":952.638,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":978.169,"end":1004.646,"text":"政府大量的投入資本開始蓋廚房浪費資源說實在的有人半開玩笑講一看到這部分條文就提到說民意代表未來幾年的競選經費大概輪流做廚房就有了我在這裡講這個話大概不討喜但這是實話簡單講就蓋一大堆的這些設備跟建設但是到最後其實你到底提供了什麼東西你甚至沒有能力去跟民間敬業這是一個最大的麻煩那什麼叫資源投入第一個就是基本上來講對於"},{"start":1006.047,"end":1006.328,"text":"主持人柯志恩"},{"start":1021.147,"end":1021.187,"text":"主席"},{"start":1040.187,"end":1047.091,"text":"發金那個部分我就先不提了我是覺得發金也要加重那什麼叫評鑑的機制我的建議是我們要專涉評鑑委員會裡面包含專家﹑老師﹑家長﹑學生家長﹑老師﹑學生這三個部分請不要設立固定的委員應該是浮動委員機制簡單講用隨機抽樣的方式他們評鑑出來的東西代表的意見才會最準而不會被我就不用再講那麼多那當然專業人員包含營養師或者相關的一些專家學者本來就應該在裡面"},{"start":1069.406,"end":1074.19,"text":"政府最大的責任其實本來就是去外部性還有公共財所以邊鄉地區的午餐基本上沒有什麼know-how就是給人給錢然後我其他就不再講了最後我做一個其他部分的補助"},{"start":1087.282,"end":1106.755,"text":"若立專法但卻為德不足只是為了多一點錢跟預算然後到時候大家又可以上下其手的話那我該要唱出一個逆風的意見我覺得那不如不要立那如果真的要立的話建議第一個部分不要省錢該有人的就要給人不要再讓老師去兼職很多先進講過了也不要再讓校長去扛責我們本來就不是學"},{"start":1109.477,"end":1109.837,"text":"請政府尊重市場機制"},{"start":1136.741,"end":1158.532,"text":"他這可以做到是第一個合理化定價機制不要老是讓定價都是廉價的然後給予資本經驗條件然後避免政治干預以上謝謝好 謝謝楊理事長你還是一如過去一樣講出官員都很不想聽的話我們接下來請王宏威委員然後接下來我們請郭育綺委員準備"}]}},{"id":"152590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309ad952610febadb1be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0f29602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:18:27 - 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然後"},{"start":231.028,"end":249.922,"text":"做包租工這一部分我們會請公務行戶這邊再加強所以不是加強我現在問的是你們有沒有跟任何的其他目前政府部門有的資料來做勾結比如說有人還去申請了租金補貼你們有沒有勾結有人還去做了租金的中所稅的"},{"start":250.643,"end":250.983,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":279.958,"end":298.383,"text":"另外我跟委員報告其實我覺得新清安其實是變代罪羔羊為什麼呢因為它的占比其實很小很小沒錯但是它會造成說大家一種防事的期待心理因為有這樣子的優惠所以大家防"},{"start":304.629,"end":318.221,"text":"所以我們不要讓新青安貸款輪為草房的幫兇首先不要讓他成為包租公拿新青安當成低價利息還可以去當包租公還可以有高收益"},{"start":319.062,"end":343.516,"text":"好不好這是最重要的標準第二個部分就是我們希望財政部最後的勾肌變成你的SOP因為這些錢是人民的納稅錢不能成為這些人他們讓無房青年我們支持他的善意跟相關的力道竟然變成炒房的幫兇這是第一個第二個部分我請一下關務署"},{"start":348.086,"end":365.945,"text":"然後次長請留步委員好好我想今天我們很特別是我們在修所謂的免徵關稅的關海關的進口稅則今天是要增加馬紹爾的免關稅但是我們看了一下"},{"start":367.468,"end":379.622,"text":"這幾年我們跟中南美洲有五個邦交國巴拿馬多米尼加薩爾瓦多尼加拉瓜洪都拉斯都有斷交那這些都還在我們的這些免稅的對象嗎"},{"start":382.458,"end":401.488,"text":"報告委員,如果是我們這邊有終止或停止的,它就不會成為免稅對象。是,那這是我剛剛講的,目前為止我們看到的這五個國家,現在只有巴拿馬還積蓄了FTA,其他四個國家目前為止都應該已經終止了吧?因為斷交之後FTA終止了嗎?"},{"start":402.448,"end":417.62,"text":"總止或停止跟亂交也沒有關係因為我們在看你這個海關進口稅則他們還在上面沒有拿下來那我們今天要加馬紹爾那這四個為什麼不把他拿下來"},{"start":420.543,"end":422.986,"text":"我現在要問的是他已經斷交了,你什麼時候要終止完成?"},{"start":436.448,"end":462.893,"text":"不知道就是我們因為我們不審這個稅則我還不知道會有這種事也就是說是不是我們關務署說明清楚對立法院來說我們需要知道我來補充一下現在是這樣子我們現在就是關於對比如說像宏都拉斯宏都拉斯他是他主動根據FTA的規定來通報我們說這個我要退出FTA是"},{"start":463.473,"end":475.586,"text":"那退出以後呢他就有一個時間點那個時間點借滿以後那麼FTA就失去效力也就是說這個FTA就沒有了沒有了事實上我的意見就是說民時相輔啦"},{"start":476.406,"end":502.423,"text":"如果有這種狀況我們所有的東西配套要盡快的完成不要感覺有個偽裝建築還繼續掛在那邊然後我們又跟他斷交了然後我們又還在海關實行稅則上還給他一大堆免稅的規範我跟委員補充一下就是另外兩個國家就薩爾瓦多薩爾瓦多跟這個另外一個國家跟尼加拉瓜跟尼加拉瓜這兩個國家不一樣他根本沒有通知我們"},{"start":503.143,"end":503.443,"text":"謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"152589","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc304d88495acb0be33d974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f2eac597dcc0aeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:11:16 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10:21:19","影片長度":"00:10:03","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":603,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:21:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:11:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時11分）謝謝主席，我想請教國發會高副主委。"],["主席：我們再請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：副主委好。副主委，您是事務官嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以520之後，您還會繼續吧？應該會繼續啦！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這樣很好，這樣子我們在520之前最後一次委員會質詢的時候，就會更有意義啦！我們今天因為在討論離島建設條例相關的部分，講到離島建設條例，我們就不免要講到離島建設基金，我覺得離島建設基金連年虧損、短絀，保管運用似乎有失當。依據離島建設條例第十六條規定，為加速離島建設，要設置離島建設基金，基金總額不得低於新臺幣300億元，由中央政府從民國90年到99年分10年撥入，這應該沒有錯。","我後來看到111年決算數，109年、110年、111年連續3年都短絀，從7.14億到12.39億不等；到112年的時候沒有短絀，是因為用了政府公務預算來撥補，8.4億進來，所以就沒有短絀這樣的情況。今年預算要撥補9億，然後預計也沒有短絀，因為撥補9億之後，預計決算還會再多100萬出來，因為有150萬利息，這幾個數字應該都沒有錯嘛！我想問一下，連年短絀的情況是什麼原因？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上就是因為那個條例有10年……因為89年成立，從90年開始，它撥補了300億，其實我們每一年的離島建設基金的投資大概是8、9億到10億不相上下，所以時間的經過以後，它的基金就會用完了，可是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想問一下，可是像這樣的非營業基金，正常不是應該要用永續經營的方式會比較妥適嗎？如果說幾年用完的時候，就有點像特別預算這樣把它用完，我覺得可能不是非營業基金它初始的初衷啦！所以我想問一個狀態，以這個情況來說，我們的離島建設基金預計什麼時候會用完？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上已經用完了，現在都是靠……"],["鄭委員正鈐：都是用撥補的方式在撐嘛！對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，撥補的方式。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都是用撥補的方式在撐嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我為什麼會針對這部分，因為對於整個離島建設基金的管理使用狀態，我們也有一些看法，比方說以一個簡單的例子，針對離島購買電動機車這件事情，我們來看一下，包括在澎湖、琉球、金門，它核定的數量跟實際的數量都有一些落差，金門除外，我們後來也發現了這些離島受補助的電動機車，他們應該在離島使用，可是有相當的一個量是在非他們的區域被發現了，像我們這邊簡單講，金門大概有16輛、澎湖也有76輛都在臺灣被查到交通違規的狀態，這個部分表示我們在使用這樣基金當中的時候，後續的管理其實有欠周延，副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我們的確有發現這樣的情況，所以目前其實就是把這些車輛全數追回補助的當中，就是我們在追查當中，金門縣政府在做這件事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：基金的管理有後續整個去maintain、去執行的狀態，我們都希望能夠真的有效去落實啦！","因為您520之後還會繼續留任，所以我要特別講一件事情，在3月25號我特別質詢了國發會用國發基金去投資兆遠的這個案子，結果你們給我的回應當中……其實上次質詢的時候，我本來還講說你們可能是碰到詐騙集團了，結果你們回應給我之後，我真的覺得你們可能不是碰到詐騙集團，而是因為你們可能是裡外呼應耶！你知道為什麼？我在問這問題當中的時候，你們回給我的是說：「依公司法規定公開發行股票之公司應於股東常會開會四十日前，將董事候選人名單及其學歷、經歷公告……」你們用這個理由來回答我，我當時質疑為什麼你們投資兆遠2億496萬元之後，沒有幾天、沒有多久它就減資57.9%，結果本來要讓你們有兩席董事進去的都沒有進去，你們就先被減資了。被減資了之後，你們才開始擔任他們的董事，擔任他們董事之後，你們再一次被減資，再一次減資50.05%，整個虧損一億多。","這麼高比例的時候，你們回應我的狀況，我就完全沒辦法接受，40天這個部分，我就跟你們講108年他們股東會是6月19號，我去查出來，往前推40天是5月9號，5月9號的時候，你們會有3個時間點去要求董事就職，你知道嗎？包括108年1月31號，你們那時候就評估決定要去投這個部分，然後108年4月19號的時候審議通過，108年4月30號通過投資2億496萬元。這3個時間點都在108年5月9號之前，所以你們如果要真的要進兆遠的時候，你們都有時間去要求你們的董事應該要進去這家公司，怎麼會用這樣子的答案來回應我？所以我本來還覺得可能你們被騙了，但是你們的回答方式讓我覺得你們是裡應外合耶！副主任可不可以回答一下？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：報告委員，因為我不督導國發基金，我們國發基金的副執秘在這邊，我可不可以請他回應？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["葉副執行秘書淑芳：委員好。跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到的我們在5月20號參與投資兆遠公司，因為剛剛委員提到往前推40天在5月初，但是因為我們5月20號才實際撥款投資，所以正式成為兆遠公司的股東……"],["鄭委員正鈐：拜託！你們又不是第一次在投資公司，你們要投資公司之前，要把條件都講好啊！所以我講了3個時間點，你們108年1月31號就開始評估符合國家產業發展的方向，所以你們不是5月20號才開始進去耶！你們之前都不用評估嗎？評估當時候沒有條件設置嗎？你們這樣在管理基金，我覺得其實是非常的有問題的！然後你們回答我說，你們在還沒有當董事之前的時候，有向他們要財務、業務相關資料，你們覺得這樣就已經達到你們的責任，是這樣子嗎？董事進去之後又發生減資的狀態，你們回答我，國發基金有請公司加強財務規劃，你們就這樣回答我。我本來覺得你們是被騙，現在覺得這可能是一個弊案。"],["葉副執行秘書淑芳：我們在參與的過程中當然都是依……因為公司是一個上櫃公司，所以都是依它相關的時程跟規定辦理。在董事的部分，的確它公告的時間是在我們實際撥款參與投資成為股東之後，所以我們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們撥款前有這麼多時間點，都沒有要求這件事情嗎？正常的話你們如果要投資一家公司，應該在之前就把相關的東西講好，但是你們的錢進去之後他們馬上減資57%，國發基金被洗了一波。我在監督、關心這一件事情，你們卻用這樣的方式回答，我覺得非常不負責任。另外再找時間跟我們講更詳細的狀態，否則的話，我們真的覺得你們不是碰到詐騙集團，你們是裡應外合，準備要洗國發基金，好不好？"],["葉副執行秘書淑芳：是，瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請行政部門再跟委員說明清楚。","接下來請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":1.0603437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.22034375,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.03034375,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.148468750000001,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.31721875,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.90346875,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.020968750000002,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.36221875,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.247218750000002,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.05659375,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.59659375,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.91971875,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.34159375,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.49721875,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.32659375,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.59409375,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.87221875,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.42846875000001,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.98096875,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.94659375,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.38096875000001,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.70534375000001,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.17346875000001,"end":126.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.52159375000001,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.17471875,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.11409375,"end":150.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.78409375,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.64534375000002,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.02909375000002,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.02846875,"end":185.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.94784375,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.52534375000002,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.14971875,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.19471875000002,"end":194.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.88659375,"end":196.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.13096875000002,"end":229.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.93596875,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.79971875,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.39284375000003,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.59096875,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.55284375000002,"end":258.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.55596875000003,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.25159375000004,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.61409375,"end":267.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.49971875,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.53346875,"end":269.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.98034375000003,"end":270.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.73971875,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.41034375000004,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.65284375000005,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.95221875000004,"end":328.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.85721875,"end":329.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.32534375,"end":342.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.77909375,"end":345.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.08659375,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.63409375000003,"end":353.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.49471875,"end":357.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.37159375000005,"end":359.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.71721875000003,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.87284375,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.74596875000003,"end":366.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":370.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.31034375,"end":374.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.12846875,"end":375.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.02284375000005,"end":379.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.93784375,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案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十六條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十六條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十六條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十六條條文修正草案 、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十六條條文修正草案 、本院委"},{"start":72.223,"end":96.216,"text":"案。」我會看到從那個110年決算數裡面我們看到109年、110年、111年連續三年都短促那從7.14億到12.39億不等那到112年的時候沒有短促是因為用了那個政府公務預算來撥補8.4億進來所以就沒有短促這樣的一個情況"},{"start":99.898,"end":119.107,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十"},{"start":127.797,"end":155.59,"text":"基本上就是因為那個條例就是有十年就是因為從八九十年開始是八九十年開始它撥補了三百億那其實我們每一年的大概離島建設基金大概都的投資大概是八九億到十億不相上下那所以它經過時間的經過以後它到基金就會用完了我想問一下可是像這樣的那個非營業基金的時候不是正常應該有永續基金的方式是會比較妥適嗎"},{"start":156.61,"end":156.63,"text":"案 。"},{"start":174.076,"end":186.883,"text":"案 則是建設基金預計什麼時候會用完?基本上已經用完了,現在基本上都是用撥補的方式在撐嘛。那我在這邊的時候,因為為什麼會針對這部分,我們對於那個整個離島建設基金的那個管理使用狀態,我們也有一些"},{"start":197.228,"end":197.408,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":215.74,"end":231.767,"text":"競門除外。」那我們後來也發現了這些離島的那個受補助的那個電動機車他們應該在離島使用可是有相當的一個量他是在非他們的區域被發現了像我們這邊簡單講競門大概有超過16輛都在台灣"},{"start":237.91,"end":266.491,"text":"被查到糾紛違規的狀態。」再來是被查到糾紛違規的狀態。那這個部分是表示我們在使用這樣的基金當中的時候,後續的管理其實有欠周延。是,我們的確有發現這樣的情況。所以我們目前就是在把這些車輛其實在做一些全數追回這個補助的當中,就是我們在追查當中。"},{"start":267.532,"end":270.913,"text":"案 。您520之後還會繼續留任,所以我要特別去講一件事情,這3月25號我特別質詢了一個就是我們"},{"start":290.92,"end":314.169,"text":"國發會去投資國發基金投資的兆元這個案子。我覺得你們給我的一個回應當中其實我本來上次質詢的時候我本來還講說你們可能是碰到詐騙集團了結果你們的回應給我之後我真的覺得你們可能不是碰到詐騙集團而是因為你們可能是里外呼應你知道為什麼"},{"start":314.989,"end":315.59,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":330.333,"end":330.633,"text":"案 公告"},{"start":352.814,"end":369.597,"text":"結果本來要讓你們有兩席董事進去的都沒有進去你們就先被減資了被減資了之後呢然後你們才開始擔任他們的董事擔任他們的董事之後呢你們再一次被減資"},{"start":372.349,"end":384.358,"text":"再次減至50.05百分比那整個的虧損一億多那這麼高比例的一個狀態的時候呢你們回應我的狀況"},{"start":386.533,"end":386.953,"text":"我沒有辦法理解"},{"start":408.871,"end":411.934,"text":"就職,包括108年1月31日,108年4月30日,"},{"start":424.81,"end":440.686,"text":"通過投資兩億零四百九十六萬元這三個時間點都在一百零八年五月九號之前所以你們如果真的要進造園的時候你們都有時間去要求"},{"start":442.321,"end":468.981,"text":"你們的董事應該要進去這家公司怎麼會用這樣子的答案來回應我所以我本來覺得可能你們還是被騙了你們的回答方式讓我覺得你們是離應外合欸副主委可不可以回答一下報告委員因為我不督導國發基金那我們國發基金的副執密在這邊我可以請他回應可以"},{"start":470.532,"end":485.429,"text":"委員好,跟委員報告。剛剛委員提到的就是我們在5月20號參與投資趙遠公司。因為剛剛委員提到往前推40天的部分在5月初,但是因為我們5月20號才實際撥款投資,所以正式成為趙遠公司的股東。"},{"start":485.629,"end":509.349,"text":"拜託,你們又不是第一次在投資公司。你們要投資公司之前要把條件都講好啊。所以我講了三個時間點。你們108年1月30號就開始評估符合國家產業發展的方向。所以你們不是5月20號才開始進去耶。你們之前都不用評估嗎?評估當中的時候沒有條件設置嗎?你們這樣在管理這樣的基金我覺得是非常的有問題的。"},{"start":510.85,"end":530.8,"text":"然後在之後你們在回答我說你們在還沒有當董事之前的時候你們有向他們要相關的財務業務相關資料你們覺得這樣就已經達到你們的責任是這樣子嗎?然後董事進去之後的時候又發生減資的一個狀態你們回答我的狀態是說國發基金有請公司要加強財務規劃"},{"start":532.941,"end":535.562,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":556.909,"end":556.949,"text":"案。」案。"},{"start":574.255,"end":574.275,"text":"案 。"}]}},{"id":"152588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30050d84ebc2912736fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f0c9ded73aea8ac595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:08:56 - 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這個有規定了齁澎湖金門馬祖離島蘭嶼等就是琉球這些離島齁這些地區營業人進口並於當地銷售之商品免徵關稅免稅項目及施法是財政部訂的吧是 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他們提出來你們都有意見啊 國務署是不是找個時間我們沒辦法隨便隨便那個我們不知道他的需求是什麼我覺得還是他們的需求告訴了你們以後你們也是你剛剛說一百零四的那一次你們覺得一百零四的那一次發生什麼事情那個署長那時候在嗎"},{"start":400.521,"end":412.655,"text":"一百零四年那一次市長不一定在一百零五年二月三月我們有去問那個貨品主管機關但是我們得到的回覆他們都有意見是貨品主管機關有意見阿你們勒"},{"start":414.145,"end":417.087,"text":"您們沒有意見嗎?通常就是要看貨品主管機關的意見。政府議題嘛。我怎麼覺得各部位都有互相打太極的感覺?"},{"start":438.746,"end":455.674,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":455.734,"end":481.54,"text":"金門 馬祖鵬 馬祖鵬有委員金門地區的這個發展我想我們具體來排時間我想會後對不對是不是關公署我們找個時間我們來討論一下然後這個金門先生有怎麼做我們大家來好好的開會討論好不好好具體的來提出來啦不要不要說這個好像好像就是說好像就是說你們說我們沒提出來我們提出來你們又不准嘛那事實上時間這樣過去也一二十年了很多東西事實上有在改變嘛可以這樣子嗎我們排個時間來好謝謝"},{"start":485.316,"end":485.478,"text":"謝謝陳玉珍"}]}},{"id":"152586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30dcf344fce7c8265d974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f2d37d3f517c779ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:00:54 - 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Kacaw委員：離島建設條例第十三條的現行條文規定「六十五歲以上離島地區居民全民健康保險對象為應自付之保險費，由中央政府編列預算支應。」這個實施很多年了，衛福部的報告裡面也提到，因為現行的條文是寫由中央政府編列預算，所以衛福部的報告裡面寫，早期是由行政院，後來就由離島基金，行政院核定由離島基金支應。103年起由衛福部編列預算，沒有錯吧？當然你的報告裡面有提到年齡、平均餘命，然後差距縮小這些內容，如果我們看國民年金法，它是五十五歲，公教人員退休資遣撫恤，原住民是五十五歲，衛福部主管的很多有關假牙的補助也都是五十五歲，所以就不要再提那個，因為其他的法都是五十五歲，所以我們怎麼樣去因應這個部分？當然原民會的報告比較簡要，這裡面當然你有特別提到很重要的條文，就是原住民族基本法第二十四條還有第二十六條，這個都很好。","我們現在看國發會的報告，它寫「本會尊重目的事業主管機關衛生福利部及原住民族委員會」，特別提到原住民族委員會，因為今天的修正條文有提到原住民要降低到五十五歲。","我們看這個，Yapasuyongʉ，原民會訂的補助原住民全民健康保險保險費實施要點，這個是你們的要點，當然這是87年的時候訂的，跟衛福部使用的年份好像有一點落差，事實上是87年訂了這個要點，但是要跟大家說，還有請衛福部、原民會瞭解，因為我過去在臺灣省政府服務，全民健保開始之後，這個規定，省政府那時候的原住民行政局就開始了，不過後來精省，就由中央來訂。我們看這個要點，所以原民會這邊，這個當然不是你管的業務啦，怎麼會派你來？應該是社會福利處。","我們就講蘭嶼，第一個，蘭嶼就是全民健保第二類、第三類、第六類第二目的原住民，就是由原民會來補助，所以今天的這個修正條文，本席認為，現行條文是中央政府編列預算，而事實上依現行條文，六十五歲以上的都是由衛福部來編列預算，如果加上大家、各位委員都支持年滿五十五歲具原住民身分的話，就由中央目的事業主管機關來編列，也就是說，原住民的部分就由原民會來編列，其他的就由衛福部來編列，如果這樣子規定，Yapasuyongʉ處長，可以嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努 Yapasuyongʉ．Poiconʉ處長：當然這個政策方向，我們原則上尊重委員的提案，但是這樣的文字是不是可以很精確地反映委員剛才的意思，可能還要再確認一下，因為這樣寫好像還有一些模糊的空間。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，衛福部。"],["陳專門委員淑華：謝謝委員。衛福部這邊還是要做個說明。剛剛委員有講到我們的書面報告裡面，其實從102年通過六十五歲以上由中央政府編列，我想大家都可以看到那個數字是非常清楚的，在102年的時候，補助只花了1.2億，然後在今（113）年我們已經編了3.7億，所以可以看得出來，隨著我們的人口老化等等因素，這個金額是一直膨脹，其實對健保的財務影響是滿大的。另外，其實現在原住民的平均年紀跟一般的國人，事實上也是有縮小，所以這部分還請委員能夠審酌，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你的意思是說，你們的政策要改嗎？衛福部主管的，其他的，很多啊，長照、假牙啊，這要改嗎？先不談這個，好不好？因為你那邊都沒有改啊，對不對？"],["陳專門委員淑華：抱歉，跟委員說明一下，事實上我們的國民年金法，經大院通過的條文裡面也是規定要逐年做檢討，那這個部分原民會也有在做檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣啦，你回去跟新的部長報告，部長要換了嘛，如果你要改，他不會同意啦！再來，副主委，這樣的修正，因為畢竟這個法律的主管機關是你們。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：可以嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，五十五歲以上的原住民免納保險費，除了經費的來源之外，其實還會涉及到整個全民健保制度會不會有其他的，例如說族群的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個跟全民健保的制度沒有關係啦。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：會有一些……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是要由誰來負擔這個費用而已啊。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：會有一些，譬如區域，因為我們現在是特別就離島地區的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：那有沒有其他的援引等等效果，我覺得可能要尊重衛福部的意見，然後衛福部現在因為520新的部長要就任，我覺得這個議題可能可以再看看部長的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我沒有要衛福部去負擔這個經費啊。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，可是……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你為什麼還要問衛福部？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我現在的修正動議，是要由原民會，所以不是要由……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，基本上……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我又沒有說要由……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然你願意用離島建設基金更好。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們尊重衛福部的意見。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：衛福部沒有意見，我們國發會尊重。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，最後，離島建設條例第十六條是什麼時候公布施行的？89年，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個300億是什麼時候開始的？89年，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，89年。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請問一下，這麼多年了，現在這個300億還有多少錢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是已經用完了，現在由公務預算每年撥補。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，所以這個部分都是要去檢討的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：89年到現在，然後沒有錢了，還在300億，這個條文已經形同虛設了，所以應該要修啊，修得更好、更完整，來因應整個離島地區實際的需要，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝。"],["主席：行政部門，因為我們今天的條文總共有7條，在詢答當中會討論一些方向出來，我也建議待會我們在實質條文討論的時候，你們聽到這個方向，各部門也可以趕快做討論。剛剛鄭天財委員所說的是把原住民的保費還是回歸到原住民委員會，反而是原住民委員會是不是可以支應這個部分，跟高副主委剛剛回答的你們尊重衛福部，我覺得這個是雞同鴨講，我非常希望我們在這裡理性去討論，才能夠真正有一個方向出來，大家不分藍、綠、白，都是希望為民眾修法更好的方向，還有更好的政策，我在這邊勉勵之。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.519718750000001,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.812843750000003,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.73221875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.60534375,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.664093750000003,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.17409375,"end":30.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.405968750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.43471875,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.04596875,"end":40.767218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.06659375,"end":42.336593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.21409375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.74096875,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.67721875,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.57471875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.164718750000006,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.23596875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.17659375000001,"end":71.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.08721875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.23034375,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.36034375,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.17846875000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.46909375,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.01721875000001,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.43471875,"end":91.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.56096875,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.35284375,"end":101.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.31034375,"end":103.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.14971875,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.63034375000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.73971875000001,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.80284375000001,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.49034375000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.84409375000001,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.82284375,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.49721875,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.34471875000001,"end":129.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.50846875000002,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.28034375000001,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.69784375,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.75659375,"end":137.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.44409375,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.50284375,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.89909375000002,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.29971875,"end":145.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.98284375,"end":148.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.56034375000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.61471875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.40346875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.79971875,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.94284375,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.67659375000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.90409375000002,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.15284375000002,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.52346875,"end":172.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.18534375000002,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.55596875,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.83409375000002,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.48346875000001,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.20909375000002,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.40284375000002,"end":186.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.24221875,"end":189.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.54971875,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.33409375000002,"end":194.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.61221875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.80596875,"end":203.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.20159375,"end":206.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.01971875,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.86721875,"end":211.39034375},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﹚立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":145.981,"end":172.308,"text":"很重要的條文就是原住民族基本法這個24條還有26條這個都很好好我們現在看國發會的報告裡面他希望本會尊重目的事業主管機關這個衛生福利部及原住民族委員會特別提到原住民族委員會因為今天的修正"},{"start":173.446,"end":191.622,"text":"條文有提到原住民要降低五十五歲。」我們看這個 這個 這個 原民會定的補助原住民全民健康保險費十四要點 這個是"},{"start":195.66,"end":223.349,"text":"你們的要點當然是87年所定的這個衛福部使用的哪一年好像有點落差事實上是87年定的這個要點但是要跟大家說衛福部、人民會了解因為我過去是在台灣省政府服務全民健保一開始之後"},{"start":225.829,"end":249.087,"text":"這個規定,省政府那時候的原住民行政級就開始了。只不過後來京省就由中央來定。我們看這個要點,所以人民會這邊當然不是你管的業務了,怎麼會派你來,應該是那個社會福利處。這個蘭嶼,我們就講蘭嶼。"},{"start":255.86,"end":264.546,"text":"案：審查：事由：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":284.743,"end":312.55,"text":"事實上目前65歲以上的現行條文都是由衛福部來編列預算如果加上大家如果各位委員都能夠支持年滿55歲即原住民身份的話那就有中央目的事業主管機關也就是說這個原住民的部分就由衛福部來編列這個其他的就由衛福部來編列"},{"start":314.127,"end":338.064,"text":"如果這樣子規定,這個表不適用,可以嗎?處長當然這個政策方向我們原則上就尊重委員的提案但是就是這樣的文字是不是很精確的可以反映就是委員剛才的意思可能還要再確認一下因為這樣寫好像還有一些模糊的空間好,那個衛福部"},{"start":341.832,"end":358.584,"text":"謝謝委員那衛福部這邊還是要做個說明就是說剛剛委員有講過說我們的書面報告裡面其實從102年通過65歲以上我想大家都可以看到那個數字是非常清楚的在102年的時候補助的話只有花了1.2億"},{"start":359.805,"end":364.106,"text":"案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":386.57,"end":414.423,"text":"那你意思說你們的政策也要改嗎?衛福部主管的、其他的?很多啊,長照啊、腳鴨啊,也要改嗎?先不談這個啦,好不好?你那邊都沒有改啊,對不對?抱歉,跟委員說明一下,事實上在我們的國民年金法裡面也是有大院所通過的條文裡面也是要逐年做檢討,那這個部分原民會也要再做檢討?你回去跟部長,新的部長報告啦,部長要換了吧?如果你要改,"},{"start":416.596,"end":428.296,"text":"他不會同意啦那個副主委是這樣的修正因為畢竟這個法律的主管機關是你是可以嗎"},{"start":429.425,"end":449.245,"text":"基本上這個55歲以上的原住民免納這個保險費除了經費的來源之外其實還會有涉及到整個全民健保制度在那個會不會有其他的跟全民健保制度沒有關係了"},{"start":450.326,"end":468.238,"text":"案,以及前面建保的制度,誰要來誰負擔這個費用而已啊?會有一些,比如說區域,因為我們現在是特別就離島地區,那有沒有其他的援引等等的效果,我覺得可能要尊重衛福部的意見,然後衛福部因為現在520"},{"start":469.599,"end":471.901,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":482.604,"end":506.281,"text":"這裏面沒有要我現在的要修正動議是要由園民會所以不是要由我又沒有說要由我當然你願意用離島建設體系我們尊重衛福部的意見衛福部沒有意見我們國發會尊重最後離島建設條例第十六條什麼時候公布施行的89年對不對這個300億什麼時候開始的"},{"start":510.629,"end":510.649,"text":"案 。"},{"start":519.126,"end":546.189,"text":"現在應該是已經用完了那現在由公務預算每年撥補所以這個部分都是要去檢討的89年了到現在然後沒有錢了還在300億這個條文已經形同西色了所以應該要修啊修得更好更完整來因應整個離島第七實際的需要好不好謝謝"},{"start":549.175,"end":549.196,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"152585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30eaa698b1575e47c1be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0fed10e96a0c6279545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:01:40 - 10:09:53","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-12"},"duration":493,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:09:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T10:01:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時1分）謝謝主席，今天是次長，請次長。"],["主席：阮次長請。"],["阮次長清華：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長早。最近監察院說要啟動調查，要調查什麼呢？我們的保健食品的關稅過高，高達30%，比汽車還要高，所以已經有監察委員申請自動調查，其實這個議題討論了非常久，但是現在有監委自請調查。我想請問一下次長，我們財政部的回應是什麼？因為這樣子的話，一定是來跟我們財政部瞭解嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想可能相關人一定都會被監委約談，所以財政部如何因應？財政部的回應是什麼？"],["阮次長清華：第一點，關於目前維他命的稅率是30%，這個是我們進WTO承諾的稅率，將來這一部分稅率要不要繼續降，這個要尊重主管機關的意見。經濟部給我們意見是說，目前假定繼續降的話，可能會嚴重影響到國內相關的產業，甚至撤出的這種狀況。它說如果要降，就要逐步慢慢的降，還要跟業者慢慢來溝通，然後看有沒有機會、有沒有空間慢慢來降。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以就財政部來說，因為我有注意到，財政部也曾經針對稅收的部分說會減少12億左右，也有表達好像是反對的意見，所以我想請問次長，按照監察院調查，現在越來越關切這個議題，您剛剛講的是經濟部的意見，那財政部的意見是什麼？"],["阮次長清華：基本上這個稅率的問題，我們都是主管機關在決定，它要去評估……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以財政部不會反對？"],["阮次長清華：我們基本上不會反對，因為它的稅率……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我這邊可以總結，由經濟部自行去評估會不會針對我們的本土產業造成衝擊，但是財政部針對稅收會不會損失等等，我們不會因為這個理由而採取反對的意見，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為它涉及的稅收不是太大啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：對，其實才十幾億，我待會就會講，其實我們以為可以收到稅，但是事實上，因為我們現在市面上大家知道有非常多的代購。"],["阮次長清華：是，瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：事實上我們還少收到稅。好，再來看這個議題，其實大家討論的非常久，當然很多人都會把世界各國的關稅拿來比較，如果你攤開來跟我們的鄰國或者是美國、歐盟或者中國大陸比，你可以看到我們保健食品的稅率確實比其他國家都要高。"],["阮次長清華：是，瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：而且高得多。剛剛說這是我們加入WTO的一個承諾，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：對，我們當時承諾的稅率……"],["王委員鴻薇：加入WTO的一個承諾，可是WTO就是一個世界的準則，如果世界各國保健食品關稅的稅率都沒有這麼高，沒有道理會要求臺灣要採取這麼高的關稅壁壘啊，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：所以剛才我也跟委員報告，我們主管機關其實也有鬆口啦，它說如果要降的話，不能夠急遽地往下降……"],["王委員鴻薇：那大概要降……"],["阮次長清華：逐步、逐步的……"],["王委員鴻薇：要降10%、降15%還是降一半？"],["阮次長清華：它是有講逐步來降，另外要跟業者溝通，然後跟公會溝通，另外，很重要……"],["王委員鴻薇：本土業者一定說No嘛，這不是廢話嗎？對不對？我當然知道本土業者希望有關稅來保護它，但是我們要考慮到整個世界各國的稅率，尤其消費者，因為消費者會越來越反彈，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們剛剛講差那麼多，人家在美國一顆才2.8塊不到3塊錢，我們臺灣將近7塊錢，對不對？消費者會覺得你今天是不是一直在剝削我們消費者，然後去補貼本土業者，因為我們現在本土業者確實也非常的多呀，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以如果主管機關願意逐步調降，你們現在所談論的逐步調降是分兩階段？還是分三階段？"],["阮次長清華：這個我們要看主管機關的作法跟想法，基本上，我覺得最重要的是如果將來萬一降稅了，這降稅的利益要回饋到消費者。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然。"],["阮次長清華：這滿重要的，這是很重要的一點，這一部分我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你降稅之後，價格就要隨之調降啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：否則進口業者我給你降關稅，但你在臺灣還是賣的那麼高，當然沒有道理啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：變成我們圖利進口業者囉？"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，我是不是把今天委員的意見帶回去，我們跟主管機關反映啦，好不好？"],["王委員鴻薇：那你們可不可以跟我講一下，大概你們多久的時間可以有一個定論？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個東西主導權真的不在我們手上，如果我們主導的，我們就可以回答了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，瞭解，因為馬上520之後，新的經濟部長也上任了，還有新的官員……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我們來看，因為我們很清楚瞭解網路上其實有很多代購，最後我們反而課不到稅。","另外要請教一個滿重要的問題，我們也有特別提高入境免稅額，也是討論非常久，大家都覺得2萬塊早就不合時宜了，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在你們準備提高到3萬5,000，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：對，3萬5,000。"],["王委員鴻薇：確定了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：確定了，已經預告了，應該6月份就可以發布。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我看到你們的預告。什麼時候可以實施？"],["阮次長清華：應該6月。"],["王委員鴻薇：可以從6月1號就開始嗎？"],["阮次長清華：就6月，因為預告也要期滿才能夠發布嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候預告期滿？"],["阮次長清華：時間點，反正就6月啦，1號跟15號，我覺得差距已經不大了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦，我覺得因為一般來講7、8月也是暑假的旺季，可以讓我們廣大的民眾受惠，我相信6月以後出國旅遊的人一定會非常非常多……"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：可能回國內的人也很多，在這樣的狀況之下，能夠儘快的讓我們享受到入境的免稅額能夠調高。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，雖然我們從2萬塊提高到3萬5,000，調幅算是滿高的啦，可是問題是因為它很多、很多年都沒有調，然後再加上我們也都會提到，甚至講臺灣的實質購買力已經超越日本跟韓國，當然韓國的免稅額也是偏低，日本折合臺幣大概是4萬……"],["阮次長清華：4萬多，它只有……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們可不可以大方一點，調高到4萬啊？是吧！"],["阮次長清華：我是覺得要考慮到鄰國啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：幹麻這麼斤斤計較，還給它少個5,000塊，真的，臺灣購買力很高啊，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告啦，我們要考慮到鄰國，不是只有日本啦！比如說像新加坡，其實它只有一萬多啦，韓國也是很低，所以我覺得我們現在調到3萬5,000，其實在亞洲，以我們目前收集到資料來講，算是第二高的欸！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們現在3萬5,000就是確定的事情？"],["阮次長清華：目前已經確定，已經預告了，所以我們6月1號就……"],["王委員鴻薇：已經預告，好，所以是6月份實施？"],["阮次長清華：6月份一定會發布。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦，我希望一定要在暑假之前來發布，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：可以，沒問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","緊接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.78909375,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.012218750000002,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.914718750000002,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.11284375,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.99034375,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.68596875,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.73221875,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.554718750000003,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.938468750000002,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.680968750000005,"end":53.170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雖然我是不是把今天委員的意見我帶回去齁 我們跟主法機關反映啦好不好齁"},{"start":315.812,"end":332.947,"text":"你們可不可以跟我講一下大概你們多久的時間可以有一個定論因為這個東西主導權真的不在我們手上如果我們主導的我們就可以回答了因為馬上520之後新的經濟部長也上任了新的這些官員"},{"start":333.867,"end":349.081,"text":"我們來看其實這個就是我說因為瞭解很清楚嘛因為我們在網路上其實有很多代購的那最後我們反而課不到稅好另外要請教一個蠻重要的問題就是我們也有特別提高就是我們的入境免稅額"},{"start":350.382,"end":370.821,"text":"也是討論非常久大家都覺得兩萬塊早就不合時宜了對不對那現在呢你們是準備提高到三萬五對三萬五確定了嗎確定了已經預告了應該六月份就可以發布那什麼時候可以實施應該六月應該是六月六月就可以可以從六月一號開始嗎"},{"start":372.542,"end":378.146,"text":"應該是6月,大概6月中,因為預告要期滿才能夠發布,時間點反正就6月,1號跟15號我覺得差距已經不大了。"},{"start":390.033,"end":408.146,"text":"我是覺得因為一般來講我們七八月因為也是暑假的旺季那可以讓我們廣大的這個民眾我相信在六月以後去出國旅遊的人一定會非常非常多可能回國內的人也很多那在這樣的狀況之下能夠盡快的讓我們享受到可以這個入境的免稅額能夠調高"},{"start":416.693,"end":432.031,"text":"另外的部分就是3萬5雖然我們從2萬塊提高到3萬5這個條幅算是蠻高的可是問題是因為它很多年很多年都沒有條然後再加上我們也都會提到說臺灣的甚至講說臺灣的實質購買力已經超越日本跟韓國"},{"start":437.577,"end":443.264,"text":"韓國的免稅額也是偏低日本和台北大概是4萬多我們特別大方一點調高到4萬"},{"start":451.913,"end":453.835,"text":"所以你們現在3萬5就是確定的事情"},{"start":478.536,"end":478.676,"text":"王鴻薇"}]}},{"id":"152584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3074dbf94e85205e45fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:59:17 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人我們在台灣有享受很難得的言論自由跟民主的體制"},{"start":396.068,"end":411.129,"text":"當然有一個風險就是如果要進去鹿港澳地區這我們上次委員也關心過但是我現在更擔心的不是只有鹿港澳因為他可能延伸到跟他在外交上比較友好的國家"},{"start":411.73,"end":438.344,"text":"然後他就講說這個人他是台灣人因為台灣內部都說兩岸一家親所以他是中國人我就可以帶走為什麼我特別找出銅鑼灣的案例因為銅鑼灣的大股東他不是在香港被消失他是在泰國在一個我們認為相對安全的地方所以這個也是一個其實我認為國安局必須要注意的這會不會是另外"},{"start":439.224,"end":460.763,"text":"他們下一個中國對於台灣的威脅或是恫嚇其實所要施展的新的方向或新的樣態我們完全同意委員的看法事實上不久之前澳洲有一個機構才公布這幾年來就是中國人在海外不自願的被帶回中國去的大概有280幾位這些"},{"start":463.626,"end":466.667,"text":"所以現在最後一點時間不好意思主席我想要請我們的外交部的陳昌次"},{"start":496.172,"end":511.367,"text":"面對中國的這樣的打壓雖然五味鳴嘴可以一笑置之但是事實上我覺得這是一個嚴肅的事情那麼就像剛剛這個柯局長所說的那麼國際上對於這件事情他們的反應跟反饋現在外交部收到訊息是什麼"},{"start":512.428,"end":532.102,"text":"就如同剛剛委員所表達的關切以及科夫局長剛剛的說明全世界的民主國家沒有一個會容忍中國這樣的境外的這種所謂的常備管轄因為這不僅是所謂的強害各國的主權還有人民的自由當然這也是對於未來他自己的形象還有未來他"},{"start":532.822,"end":533.302,"text":"當然不會,外交部會全力而為。"}]}},{"id":"152583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30fe006d3f6fc573b5be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0f8a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:51:32 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﹏﹏"},{"start":259.366,"end":282.486,"text":"地點在南投你已經下單了可是卻要10個工作天這些東西這些商品是不是從中國來你看他在網路上提出來的都是中國的一個證照出貨點可是他是寫在南投縣信義鄉甚至有很多他的出貨點是在桃園那你們扣不扣他關稅"},{"start":286.594,"end":299.807,"text":"這個關稅當然進到我們國門的時候,如果是他可以進來的話,那當然是會有關稅的問題。那如果他是被註記說NW0的話,他是不能進來的。"},{"start":300.808,"end":321.198,"text":"所以剛才講的就是說如果比亞迪據我瞭解他電動車是不能進來的我現在已經不跟你講電動車了我跟你講的是最小的一個連一個髮飾連一個就是一件衣服這個都是香奈兒的相同的一個款項然後甚至是一個包包一個快時尚我是不是請關務署署長回答我"},{"start":322.761,"end":339.603,"text":"關委員報告那這些貨物如果他是大盤商從中國大陸進來當然在通過我們關口的時候就必須要依照我們的規定繳稅至於發貨地在哪裡那就是看每個廠商的一個規定只要他通過我們的關口就一定要繳稅"},{"start":340.845,"end":361.886,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":362.186,"end":388.738,"text":"買一個就是最快然後最方便可是最不實用的這些日用商品然後我們任由這樣子的這些中國的低價的一個請消品然後影響到我們的生活品質影響到我們臺灣的各種產業那你到底扣不扣他稅有沒有辦法扣他稅你們有沒有這樣的一個統計呢跟委員報告有的那怎麼樣有你告訴我"},{"start":390.316,"end":414.906,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":415.026,"end":415.186,"text":"賴惠妹"},{"start":439.183,"end":462.778,"text":"這個金額不動,金額不動可是還是持續下降的時候,它表示就是說它的數量一直在增加,表示它的包裹,小型的包裹一直在增加。署長,針對的這樣子的一個大量的包裹湧入台灣,你們有沒有做這樣的統計,然後有沒有做它的內容物的一個調查呢?"},{"start":463.838,"end":482.73,"text":"報告委員這經過海關關口的話是我們關務署這邊負責的那我們是負責我要問你說關務署進來的這些小型的包裹小型的包裹你們扣不扣稅我可以請關務署彭署長嗎可以請好這個好來"},{"start":486.459,"end":501.063,"text":"關稅部分跟營業稅部分是海關在邊境上會課徵關稅也代徵這個營業稅只要符合我們應該要繳稅的規定一定會課徵關稅跟營業稅可是他如果是跟你拆包呢?"},{"start":502.128,"end":525.638,"text":"他跟你拆包呢?你有沒有這樣的一個統計呢?這些海關都有在一直在防範因為每年進口的這個報單量大概都5000多分你有沒有這樣的一個統計表格呢?是 我們都有相關的一個統計好 非常好 那是不是就是說在會後一個禮拜內請把這些資料 完整的資料 統計的資料給本席呢?"},{"start":528.253,"end":549.078,"text":"市長我在要求經濟部主動調查哪些產業是受到影響的並且評估各個產業的影響的一個程度就像說來自於我們的中小中小的一個日用品的一個產業就是我們的那個時裝產業還是我們鞋子的一個產業那關務署應該依據經濟部的一個調查狀況針對受影響的產品那即刻啟動一個還請銷的一個調查"},{"start":556.179,"end":579.749,"text":"官務署也在這裡要求就是說現行的還請銷的一個申請跟審查的要件是不是太嚴了那官務署你應該評估現有的低價的免稅額制度對產業的一個影響若是有影響是絕對有影響的你應該提出一個具體的一個應對的措施那是不是也跟其他的國家一樣限縮呢"},{"start":581.33,"end":597.333,"text":"現在說這個非常的重要那有希望就是說次長這個在一個月內提出書面報告給本席好不好好我們在謝謝委員的指教這的確是很重要的問題了那我想這個我們在報告裡面再詳細的跟委員來報告好不好好謝謝謝謝次長謝謝謝謝賴惠文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"152582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309caa3923bb0f1a269d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0fe744949ebbc1455f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:55:26 - 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謝謝主席我想柯志恩、昭偉在座各位委員以及各位專家學者大家早安大家好今天很高興昭偉以教文的這個部分我們的名義召開這個學校營養午餐的一個法制化"},{"start":18.442,"end":45.863,"text":"公聽會這代表教文委員會非常重視這樣子的一個議題也希望教育部趕快把版本送進立法院這件事情我們等很久了我們也看到新聞不斷的在提說有機會要通過我們預計都希望但是目前我都還沒有看到教育部這邊的一個版本近年來學校的營養午餐以及校園食安議題備受關注學校的營養午餐更是家長"},{"start":46.784,"end":74.836,"text":"以及各界高度重視的一個教育措施一份健康的營養午餐不僅能帶給學生健康好體力更是建構一個師生良好飲食習慣的一個絕佳機會然而現今的中央政府未制定專法以及專法授權條款各地方政府因為財政狀況及地方的考量造就各縣市午餐的政策多頭馬車的一個形態"},{"start":75.876,"end":90.218,"text":"我來自台中我擔任過里長議員我們在議員的時候就一直在表達各縣市營養午餐的補助不一導致營養午餐營養也撐吃不起"},{"start":92.285,"end":105.317,"text":"107年監察院的午餐調查報告就指出學校營養午餐經費分配不均營養師學校廚師人力不夠包括我自己也常遇到廚工跟我們抱怨薪資的問題"},{"start":106.698,"end":112.085,"text":"我們更希望午餐品質稱之不齊等問題都應該一併一起解決當臨近的日本與韓國分別於1954年1981年已經訂立了《學校計時法》"},{"start":123.118,"end":144.733,"text":"台灣至今沒有相關統合規範讓執行單位可以去依循顯見台灣在法規上已經落後落後再落後台灣催生出亞洲第一部病人自主權利法亞洲第一部家庭暴力防治法也是亞洲地區第一個同性婚姻合法的國家"},{"start":145.333,"end":167.524,"text":"但法制化的過程中﹐台灣有很多很多亞洲第一﹐但是在教育議題上﹐在飲食議題上﹐台灣就落後世界很多很多所以我們急需一部﹐高級中等以下﹐學校午餐及飲食教育的條例﹐來提升校園的公餐品質﹐"},{"start":168.644,"end":183.787,"text":"並且透過專法在政策制定﹐志願投入﹐人力的協助﹐以及管理的執行單位﹐讓學校的營養午餐的相關體系能夠日出於完善本專法在108年前有進行預告"},{"start":184.827,"end":209.618,"text":"那時候的名稱還是學校午餐條例然後在112年112年召開多場諮詢會議以後在今年的3月報請行政院審議名稱也修正為高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例從108年到113年5年那麼久才報行政院相關的條文內容不曉得108年"},{"start":211.859,"end":229.616,"text":"預告的版本有多大的差異我們不得而知等一下可以請教育部說明一下但我要講的是現在的現行做法學校學生的午餐執行秘書多由老師來擔任所以在3月19日我有召開一場記者會"},{"start":231.477,"end":232.257,"text":"記者會的訴求：羅廷瑋"},{"start":248.204,"end":274.105,"text":"對於這個目前的困境大家多半都知道我希望教育部在未來條文裡不要虧待老師學校的午餐衛生安全要求條件多配餐的份量大與一般的餐廳和家庭的餐點配置完全不同需符合國民的營養健康要讓孩子願意吃吃的飽又不能一昧的迎合學童的一個口味"},{"start":274.986,"end":275.126,"text":"委員．羅廷瑋"},{"start":293.072,"end":293.452,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":318.214,"end":342.027,"text":"執行秘書這絕對不是單單的一個小秘書這麼簡單的工作他像是在經營一個超大超大的一個學校餐廳他要經營他要配置他要管理人力甚至要面試甚至要去了解然後要不斷不斷的將這些所謂的每日公餐的一些配散要把它做成"},{"start":343.228,"end":343.248,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"}]}},{"id":"152581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3064adb361d4730bc7974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f621747a0e7dfbc9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:50:09 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10:00:46","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-05-16T10:00:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:50:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時50分）請國發會副主委。"],["主席：我們再請高副主委。"],["張委員啓楷：今天交通部的代表是誰？"],["主席：請交通部。"],["張委員啓楷：盧副司長，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：高副，還有副司長，早安。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：早。"],["張委員啓楷：布袋港要設置免稅品提貨區，國發會應該是贊成的，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，我們樂見其成。"],["張委員啓楷：你們要支持啦！我特別要求交通部上來，是因為剛才看你們的說明裡提到要設提貨區，旅客服務中心在民國110年5月16號已經正式啟用，然後你說離島建設條例第十條之一修正通過之後，航警局要找財政部討論相關的硬體和軟體設施，第一個，交通部是贊成的，跟國發會一樣，對不對？第二個，你說的修正條文，即離島建設條例第十條之一，應該這幾天就會通過，條文通過後，大概需要多少時間可以正式設立？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：報告委員，這部分最主要是牽涉到業者的意願，當初新的旅運中心成立的時候，其實就已經把相關的區位規劃好了，現在就看他們需要多少進駐時間，然後我們會跟相關單位，譬如關務署協調他們的軟硬體設備及動線的安排。"],["張委員啓楷：現在的時程就是等修法，對不對？看起來委員會這邊很快就會通過，送到院會，我現在問你的是，院會通過之後，你大概需要多少時間？相關流程剛剛你已經講了，對不對？你都有步驟了，那預計大概要多久？修法完成之後，大概多久布袋港可以看到免稅品的提貨區？半年內可以做得起來嗎？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：這還是牽涉到業者的意願，據我們的理解，目前離島免稅店其實有2家，從他們進駐，到相關人員配置以及整個動線安排，他要申請相關的設置許可。硬體面，我們可以很快準備好，但是軟體的流程面可能還需要多一點時間。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你大概抓多少時間？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：因為有牽涉到業者意願，我不敢幫他們先抓時間，官方的部分，我們會儘速配合。"],["張委員啓楷：交通部還有財政部該做的，你們要儘快先做好準備，好不好？這個對嘉義的發展、對整個離島的發展，老實講也是重要的，好不好？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同來努力，好不好？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，嘉義輕軌這幾天一直在討論，今天有交通部的官員在，就是從高鐵太保站要拉進嘉義市區，也就是臺鐵火車站，嘉義人非常關心，包括嘉義市議會，很多嘉義人都已經在講，如果右邊這個嘉義市火車站要延伸到北門車站，完工之後，北門車站又接全臺灣唯一的高山鐵路─阿里山鐵道，這條鐵路7月1號要全線通車，你看這多漂亮的一條線！從高鐵太保站下來，進到嘉義市、到北門車站，北門車站已經是嘉義市非常有名的觀光點，現在又拉上去阿里山，這條線太漂亮了！然後剛剛我們講的布袋港，布袋港就在太保這邊，旁邊一點點就是故宮南院，很漂亮，對不對？很多人都想去，故宮南院如果拉到你剛剛講的那裡，把那個建設趕快做起來，從布袋港到故宮南院，到太保高鐵站，一直拉進來嘉義市，然後接到北門、到阿里山，這不只對嘉義，對全臺灣的觀光都會是一個非常大的進步，連國際都會看到嘉義，所以請交通部跟國發會要幫忙促成這件事情，好不好？當然，下個月嘉義市政府就會把評估報告送到交通部跟行政院，請國發會跟交通部可以支持，好不好？當然，這裡面可能牽扯到很多經費的問題，但我們會儘量去爭取，請大家要支持這個案子，謝謝。","交通部副司長可以先請回，我們請經濟部林次長。"],["主席：請經濟部次長。"],["張委員啓楷：高副你先留著。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來看一下金門的金水，金水2013年開始從廈門引水，花了多少錢？15億的工程款，一年利息高達數千萬，已經造成金門縣政府財政非常大的負擔，這件事情經濟部應該有討論過，他們現在嚴重到什麼程度？對縣庫是很大的負擔，對金門人也是一個很大的負擔，他們現在只能跟土銀、永豐銀借錢，然後人家一直催債、一直催債。金門引進原水，一天要用掉多少？2萬5,000噸，用水是非常重要的，副座，我們現在討論離島建設基金，有沒有可能以離島建設基金全額補助金水？"],["林次長全能：金門地區自來水營運的虧損差額補助，本來就可以依據離島建設條例來申請補助，不過金水公司第一期建設相關的貸款利息，在完成資本化之後，那個部分在行政院決定是不能夠納入差額補貼的狀況。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼不能補助？我先問你，我們不是在講不要一國兩制嗎？像我住嘉義，嘉義沒有嘉義水，住基隆的，也沒有基隆水，臺北也沒有臺北水，都是台水，對不對？那為什麼金水蓋一個引水工程，自己要花15億？這有兩個解決方案，你聽我講、聽我講。有兩個解決方案，一個是把金水納入台水，包括債務部分全部都吸收，這是一個方法，對不對？第二個就是以離島建設基金補助金門，這兩條路可以走嗎？"],["林次長全能：我跟委員報告過，離島建設條例本來就可以補助，金水公司的投資部分可以納入補助，這是沒有問題的，但金水公司是用貸款方式，貸款的利息在建設過程中資本化，也可以補助，但完成之後，沒有辦法資本化，那依據條例規定就不能夠補助，差異在這邊。"],["張委員啓楷：現在這15億的工程款，你們會補助多少？"],["林次長全能：如果我沒有記錯的話，我們從89年……"],["張委員啓楷：2013年開始嘛，對不對？"],["林次長全能：從89年到112年我們已經補助了46.4億的差額補助給金水公司。"],["張委員啓楷：從2013年開始，這15億的工程款，你們補助多少？"],["林次長全能：這個部分，我請水利署說明。"],["張委員啓楷：你們補助多少？"],["黃副署長宏莆：跟委員報告，自大陸引水的工程費部分是中央是支持的，是13億，而剛剛委員所提到……"],["張委員啓楷：多少？你說中央支持多少？"],["黃副署長宏莆：13億啊！就是85%，13億的85%，大概是10億多。"],["張委員啓楷：15億補助85%，補助了13億？"],["黃副署長宏莆：對。剛剛委員關心的是自來水淨水場那一塊有13億，那是金水公司投入的，當初在行政院報核的時候，原則上院核定函就是縣府這邊要支應這個工程費，只是沒有想到後面它不用編列預算方式，而是用借款方式，所以借款的利息部分，其實在院這邊都討論過了，也就是建設時的利息部分，我們有差額補貼，這是OK的，但是資本化之後，也就是營運之後、正式引水之後，那個部分屬於營運部分，就沒有辦法補貼，這是一致性的標準。另外，如果未來整體營運部分，差價補貼晚撥的話，這個部分也是可以補的，所以只有那個13億的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：這有兩部分啦！第一個，釜底抽薪，現在就把金水納到台水去，可不可以？納到台水，你就不用補了，就直接台水去處理，不要一國兩制。"],["林次長全能：我跟委員報告，台水公司現在也是虧損累累，就我說，他自己都已經是泥菩薩過江了，所以他們自己要好好把這個事情做好。"],["張委員啓楷：不會啦！上次我們有幫台水爭取很多經費啊！"],["林次長全能：主要是台水公司本身目前也是虧損相當大，有借款，而台水現階段重要的推動工作，就是把營運做到更好，基本上如果金水進來會讓台水的營運更好，當然我們樂觀其成，但現在台水公司是在一個嚴重虧損的情形之下，這樣進來是沒有辦法發揮更好的效率的。"],["張委員啓楷：可是人家講這樣是一國兩制啊！對不對？"],["林次長全能：跟委員報告，事實上，沒有一國兩制，該補助的，我們一定會去補助。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，所以今天我們來幫它爭取，這是金門縣政府要爭取的，應該跟你們講過，對不對？所以今天的答案，第一個，短時間併不到台水裡面去，可是當台水哪一天營運更好了、有錢了，可以考慮嘛，是不是這樣的意思？"],["林次長全能：這個還是要嚴謹評估，因為這個屬於高度政策，我可能沒辦法回復委員，抱歉。"],["張委員啓楷：那他們就繼續爭取，我找一天再來問。第二個更具體的，所以他們現在可以跟你們申請多少經費？他們現在就是缺錢，哪些部分可以再申請？"],["林次長全能：它只要每年的營運虧損符合相關規定，都可以來申請。"],["張委員啓楷：都可以喔！"],["林次長全能：而且我們都用最快的速度來做相關的補助。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，那我就請它趕快把計畫提上來，好不好？"],["林次長全能：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們儘量幫忙他們，好不好？"],["林次長全能：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：多謝，感恩。"],["主席：接下來我們請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.579093750000002,"end":30.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.64221875,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.51096875,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.33346875,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.16034375,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.12534375,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.728468750000005,"end":46.994093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.48346875,"end":51.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.27221875,"end":50.250968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.55034375,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.85784375,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.42721875,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.49846875,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.25284375000001,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.69159375000001,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.46346875,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.63159375000001,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.09471875,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.76096875,"end":81.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.14471875000001,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.30909375,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.16909375,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.65784375000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.97409375000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.23034375,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.03846875,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.47971875,"end":131.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.74034375000002,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.61721875,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.97159375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.55409375000002,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.10659375,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.42721875,"end":172.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.34596875,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.43846875,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.70284375,"end":183.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.18784375,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.20409375,"end":191.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.38909375,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.33409375000002,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.45159375,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.21409375000002,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.34034375000002,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.87159375000002,"end":211.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.30159375000002,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.04784375000003,"end":218.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.42284375000003,"end":220.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.62096875,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.62346875,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.23909375000002,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.51284375,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.71096875,"end":241.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.71471875,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.07284375,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.81471875000003,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.78846875000002,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.33221875000004,"end":265.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.96409375,"end":278.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.21096875,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.00409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完成之後沒有辦法資本化那這個在條例的規定裡面就不能夠來補助這個差異是在這邊目前我們從這個八十如果我沒有記錯的話從八十"},{"start":445.106,"end":445.627,"text":"2013年開始：立法院委員："},{"start":458.096,"end":469.44,"text":"這個部分我請我們那個水利署跟委員報告今天是大陸飲水的工程費的部分飲水工程費是中央來支持的13億那剛剛委員提到13億就是85%也就大概10億多15億補是85%對"},{"start":480.123,"end":482.906,"text":"案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":497.68,"end":521.699,"text":"案 並沒有說他後面不用編列預算方式,他是用去借款的方式。所以他那個借款的利息部分,那其實在院這邊都討論過了。也就是他在建設那時候的利息部分,這個部分我們有參加補貼,OK。但是他資本化之後呢,也就是在營運之後,正式營水之後,那個部分是屬於營運的,營運的那個部分就沒有辦法去"},{"start":522.139,"end":523.34,"text":"案 、第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":539.135,"end":540.697,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":559.482,"end":574.56,"text":"主要是說台水公司目前本身也是虧損相當大是借款那我們想台水現在現階段重要的推動工作是把它的營運做到更好那基本上如果說進來是會使台水的這個營運做得更好當然我們樂觀其成"},{"start":574.98,"end":593.44,"text":"但是現在台水公司是一個這個嚴重虧損的情形底下,這樣進來是沒有辦法這個發揮更好的一個效率啦。可是人家講一國兩制啊,對不對?事實上根本沒辦法,沒有一國兩制啊,該補助的我們一定會去補助啦。對,來來,所以今天我們要幫他爭取這是"},{"start":594.434,"end":598.116,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":620.006,"end":620.687,"text":"案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案﹚"}]}},{"id":"152580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30c5c8d4d88fb9d173fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f018613d2985edf055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:49:40 - 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boat它的滾裝貨輪有沒有不正常船舶的調動？"],["柯副局長承亨：目前掌握的情況，沒有，沒有特別。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有火箭軍的調動？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，我們跟國防部都持續在關注。"],["王委員定宇：你可以不講，當然不能說謊，但你可以不講，我尊重某些事情保密是基於國家利益。我現在是說……"],["柯副局長承亨：我跟委員報告，沒有特殊、特別異常的一些調動。"],["王委員定宇：好，520前軍事上沒有特殊異常，那網路上呢？"],["柯副局長承亨：網路上？"],["王委員定宇：對，對臺的攻擊在量跟質有沒有升高？"],["柯副局長承亨：所謂網路上是認知作戰、錯假訊息……"],["王委員定宇：不管是disinformation或者malware，有的是惡性軟體，有的是假錯訊息，一個是程式，一個是內容，有沒有升高的趨勢？因為我們放了很多Honey Pot在偵測這些東西嘛！"],["柯副局長承亨：對，是。"],["王委員定宇：應該都有數據嘛？"],["柯副局長承亨：這個部分，中共對我們的一些錯假訊息的傳散本來就相當多，但是常態性的……"],["王委員定宇：不是，常態性的惡意，這些我們都知道，我是說有沒有異常？"],["柯副局長承亨：網路的侵擾……"],["王委員定宇：不是，你沒有掌握就沒有掌握……"],["柯副局長承亨：網路侵擾有增加。"],["王委員定宇：增加多少百分比？"],["柯副局長承亨：我請科技部門……"],["王委員定宇：先講malware這些惡意軟體。"],["馬副處長：跟委員報告一下，有關於網路侵擾的部分，今年1月選舉之後到……"],["王委員定宇：最近？"],["馬副處長：5月11日左右，都是持續增加的趨勢。"],["王委員定宇：趨勢往上走？"],["馬副處長：原本是從一百多萬次，到現在有……"],["王委員定宇：一百多萬次，是每日還是每小時？"],["馬副處長：每日的。"],["王委員定宇：每日一百萬次。"],["馬副處長：到現在的是兩百五十幾萬次。"],["王委員定宇：增加那麼多喔？"],["馬副處長：是。"],["王委員定宇：你現在講的次數，是針對我們基礎建設的網站，還是所有？"],["馬副處長：針對政府機關的侵擾。"],["王委員定宇：政府的嘛？民間的還沒有算進去，學術網路也沒有算進去嘛？"],["馬副處長：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以不含學術網、不含民間網，光政府網站攻擊次數，從選前每日百萬次，現在升高到兩百五十七萬次？"],["馬副處長：是。"],["王委員定宇：樣態有沒有不一樣？"],["馬副處長：樣態就是要找到我們網路設備的漏洞，然後進行後續的滲透。"],["王委員定宇：你們研判它想幹麼？也許在520當天，我還是講等而下之，給你置換front page、置換網頁。"],["馬副處長：跟委員報告，其實就是兩個面向，一個在隱性的面向，一定會包含所謂的平時竊資，如果是顯性的，有可能在當天會有DDoS的情形或者是您剛剛提到的網頁置換的情況，這都不能排除，以上報告。"],["王委員定宇：樣態還有很多啦！我們的時間是有限。我問520後，路透社有一則報導，說在就職典禮後，中國軍事演習的壓力會升高，你們目前有沒有這樣子的情資？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，大概下半年，共軍演習本來就比較密集……"],["王委員定宇：他們演習的密集本來就6到11月……"],["柯副局長承亨：對，就是下半年。"],["王委員定宇：6到11月是它密集的區間。"],["柯副局長承亨：那個區間本來就是比較頻密。"],["王委員定宇：有軍隊就會有演習，有演習就有實彈、實兵等等，這個常態，本席現在問的是異常的部分，就是有沒有掌握到520後，甚至於到7月，共軍異常的或者是以往沒有的新的軍事動作？"],["柯副局長承亨：我們持續每天都在做一些監看，甚至跟我們的一些合作友方都有很密切地在做一些聯繫。"],["王委員定宇：你剛才跟我講的方法，我們跟五眼聯盟、跟友邦、跟自由民主同盟會有情資的交換，我們自己也要有這些掌控的能力，不管是軍事的掌控或者是情報的掌控，我現在問的是結果。有時候把對方的動作揭露也是一種因應之道，但我尊重你們的策略選擇。我現在問的是520後中共有沒有新增加的或者異常的或者相關的軍事動作，不管是軍演或者是侵擾，不管是在臺海或者是在離島，我們國安局有沒有這方面的情資？"],["柯副局長承亨：目前還沒有掌握到520之後他們有特別打算做的一些軍事侵擾。"],["王委員定宇：就異常的沒有？"],["柯副局長承亨：異常的，目前是沒有。"],["王委員定宇：因為異常的話，會有些先兆，軍事演習不是我們今天……"],["柯副局長承亨：對，跟委員報告，我們對於共軍的動態都有一些預警的徵候，我們隨時在關注。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為軍事演習不是拿個哨子一吹，就比賽看誰跑得快，不是這樣子，軍事演習要準備的、要物流的、要相關的logistic assemble，很多動作要做，所以有很多跡象可以去研判，我也相信貴局或者國防部會進行相關的掌握。","我現在只是提醒，對臺灣來講，是民主的喜事，是人民自由的選擇，但獨裁國家永遠不懂，不懂什麼叫做尊重人民的選擇、不懂什麼叫做民主的選擇，政權和政府是會換的，是人民選擇的，不會像習近平一做做到他高興為止，所以在520前後，不管是政治、經濟、軍事、網路各方面，可能都要提高警覺，證期會、證交所，駐外使館到國內的公家單位，到重要的基礎設施，到相關的軍事單位，我覺得這當然本來就是我們的責任，但在特殊時期，請大家一起努力，提高警覺，好不好？謝謝副局長。"],["柯副局長承亨：謝謝委員，我們會隨時提高警覺，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.77346875,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.45659375,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.19471875,"end":6.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.113468750000003,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.294718750000001,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.62784375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.51909375,"end":46.994093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.43284375,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.330343750000004,"end":67.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.66596875,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.38284375,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.68034375,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.91221875000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.92909375,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.92034375,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.93721875000001,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.50659375000001,"end":116.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.36721875,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.48471875000001,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.17909375000002,"end":142.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.84909375,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.78909375,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.36284375,"end":144.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.47659375,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.96596875,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.90596875,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.63534375,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.43659375000001,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.30534375000002,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.02971875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.97659375,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.22471875000002,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.63784375,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.69659375,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.41346875000002,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.97034375,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.32409375,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.50096875000003,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.51784375000003,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.47971875000002,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.59784375,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.32346875000002,"end":207.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.72784375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.60471875000002,"end":230.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.89159375000003,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.05159375000002,"end":221.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.77971875,"end":232.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.82159375,"end":234.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.98159375,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.14159375000003,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.44096875000002,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.60534375,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.87096875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.44409375,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.49471875,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.73096875000002,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.89909375000002,"end":250.00034375},{"sp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坦白說因為執政的延續我也不認為各位是所謂的看守內閣因為各位都在這個位置上不管外交、僑務或者是國安事務上都相當的時間所以要有一個延續性另外一個延續性是國家利益就是國家利益不會因為"},{"start":35.538,"end":37.439,"text":"我現在要請教一個520前跟520後的事情"},{"start":55.427,"end":66.713,"text":"在520前這兩天國際主流媒體報導像VOA是美國之音還有很多國際媒體報導說中國正在加大"},{"start":68.062,"end":95.411,"text":"對台灣的各方面的壓力他指的有軍事的有灰色地帶的有認知作戰的甚至於到各個國家去反遊說希望各國的政要不要參加台灣520的就職典禮我都認為這個是等而下之的這個是最low的手段去各國叫人家不要來參加那還有一些軍事的手段就國安局目前有沒有掌握在520前"},{"start":97.512,"end":110.278,"text":"中共可能對台灣一個民主的盛會民主的選舉有人勝有人敗但是民主本身是勝利的我們的民選的過程你們有沒有掌握任何情資"},{"start":111.96,"end":131.312,"text":"跟委員報告就本局跟整個國安團隊事實上針對520總統就職當然都有相關的一些維安重點的一些專案520之前我們光是看最近這幾天包括中共"},{"start":132.25,"end":132.91,"text":"有沒有異常的傳播調動?異常傳播調動"},{"start":161.374,"end":182.091,"text":"坦白講對我們周邊的海域中共事實上灰色侵擾事實上比以前更嚴重他的軍艦或者不管是052啦或者相關的軍艦在台灣周邊騷擾日本騷擾南海騷擾那個是不對的但是那個是常態性的我現在講不正常的是有沒有"},{"start":183.012,"end":192.156,"text":"比方說我們講Roro Boat 比方說它的滾裝貨輪有沒有不正常的船舶的調動目前掌握的情況沒有有沒有火箭軍的調動"},{"start":193.717,"end":215.48,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟國防部都持續在關注你可以不講我尊重某些事情保密是基於國家利益我跟委員報告就是沒有特殊特別異常的一些在520前軍事上沒有特殊異常的網路上呢網路上對有沒有升高我們從量跟值"},{"start":216.77,"end":217.77,"text":"網路上是認知作戰：王定宇：王定宇"},{"start":239.993,"end":263.522,"text":"這個部分中共對我們的一些錯假訊息的傳算本來就相當多常態性的惡意我們都知道我說有沒有異常有沒有異常那個網路的清早你沒有掌握就沒有掌握網路清早有增加增加多少百分比我請我們的這個科技部門那個先講Malware就是說這些惡意軟體"},{"start":264.842,"end":292.439,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關於網路侵擾的部分這是有比在今年1月就是選舉之後到最近0511日左右都是持續增加的趨勢那原本是從100多萬次到現在有你100多萬次是每日還是每小時每日的每日100萬次對然後到現在的是250幾萬次"},{"start":294.56,"end":317.75,"text":"增加那麼多是你現在講的次數是針對我們的基礎建設的網站還是所有針對政府政府機關的民間的還沒有算進去學術網路也沒有算進去嘛是所以不含學術網不含民間網光政府的網站攻擊次數從選前的每日百萬次現在升高到257萬次那樣態有沒有不一樣"},{"start":323.541,"end":323.781,"text":"你們研判他想幹嘛?"},{"start":332.028,"end":356.691,"text":"也許在520當天我還是講等而下之給你置換front page置換網頁跟委員報告其實就兩個面向一個在隱性的面向一定會包含了所謂的平時竊資那如果是顯性的有可能會在當天會有DDoS的情形或者是說網頁置換您剛剛提到的網頁置換的情況這都不能排除以上報告"},{"start":357.051,"end":359.473,"text":"520後路透社有一則報導說在就職典禮後中國的軍事演習壓力會升高,你們目前有沒有這樣的情緒?"},{"start":377.554,"end":406.517,"text":"跟委員報告大概下半年中共共軍在演習他們演習的密集本來就6到11月啦他6到11月他是他密集的那個區間本來就是有軍隊就會有演習有演習就有實彈實兵等等這個常態本期間問的是在異常的部分就是有沒有掌握到520後甚至於到7月有沒有共軍異常的或者是以往沒有的新的軍事動作"},{"start":407.847,"end":435.657,"text":"我們持續每天都在做一些監看甚至跟我們的一些合作友方都很密切的在做一些聯繫所以你剛才跟我講的方法我們跟五眼聯盟跟友邦跟自由民主同盟我們會有情資的交換我們自己也要這些掌控的能力不管是軍事的掌控或者是情報掌控那我現在問的是結果我不知道國安局能不能讓有時候"},{"start":436.897,"end":457.166,"text":"對方的動作揭露也是一種因應之道但我尊重你們的策略選擇我現在問的是520後中共有沒有新增加的或者異常的或者相關的軍事動作不管是軍演或者是侵擾不管是在台海是在離島我們國安局有沒有這方面的情資"},{"start":458.186,"end":481.349,"text":"目前還沒有就說掌握到520之後他們有特別的一些打算做的一些軍事的清早就異常的異常的目前是沒有因為異常的話會有些先兆軍事演習不是我們跟委員報告我們對於共軍的動態我們都有好幾個一些預警的徵候軍事演習不是拿個哨子一吹就比賽看誰跑得快不是這樣子"},{"start":482.41,"end":498.633,"text":"軍事演習要準備的、要物流的、要相關的logistic assemble 很多動作要做所以有很多跡象可以去研判那我也相信貴局或國防部會進行相關掌握我現在只是提醒就是對台灣來講是民主的喜事"},{"start":499.574,"end":527.333,"text":"是人民自由的選擇但獨裁國家永遠不懂不懂什麼叫做尊重人民的選擇不懂什麼叫做民主的選擇政權跟政府是會換的他是人民選擇的不會像習近平一做他做到他高興為止所以在520前後不管是政治、經濟、軍事、網路各方面可能都要提高警覺政期會、政交所"},{"start":529.09,"end":529.511,"text":"我們會隨時提高警覺"}]}},{"id":"152579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309024c031b83ea135be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0fae5225588713dd165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:40:13 - 09:51:20","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-12"},"duration":667,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:51:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:40:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時40分）謝謝主席，有請阮次長。"],["主席：好，我們請財政部阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：次長好。次長，本席在週一的時候有舉辦一個會勘，這次會勘是針對整個財政部所屬的金融機構跟相關機關的文化資產，很遺憾的，三年前本席在擔任召委的時候，也曾經進行過一次類似的會勘，但是那一次不論是關務署也好，或臺銀北投的宿舍區也好，基本上這三年並沒有具體的進度。其實就這件事情當中，本席非常的感慨，也深深的體會到，其實財政部只對金融資產有興趣，對文化資產顯得相對的沒有那麼高的重視，不至於到漠視啦，因為你們還是有去修復，還不只有修復，但是文化資產可貴的地方不是在於把它修復而已，而是把它活化，次長，你同意本席的看法嗎？"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員，我知道委員對文化資產的重視，文化的確是我們的根，所以這個是很重要的一部分。"],["郭委員國文：是，沒有錯。"],["阮次長清華：所以像臺銀，其實我們一直督導它，就有關的那些古蹟都逐一的修復，現在問題是他們在過去的三年，其實我一直都跟呂董事長在溝通啦，他們一直都在招標，但已經流標很多次。前幾天剛好就是委員去考察之後，我又再跟他討論，我說是不是用別的方式，以更有創新性的方式，請學者專家提供一些見解，那我們來看看用什麼方式可以儘量來活化。"],["郭委員國文：次長，有太多的方式可以招標了，包括你積極的去邀標，很多方法嘛，對不對？公部門如果連招標都沒有辦法進行的話，那跟態度有所關聯啦！你想一想，整個公股銀行跟民間的銀行相比，最大的特色在哪裡？就是我們擁有許許多多的文化資產，包括歷史建築，包括市定古蹟，包括國定古蹟，這不勝枚舉啊。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：你保存好這些文化資產，基本上不但是公股銀行的特色，那也是公股銀行、相關機構的一種社會責任。"],["阮次長清華：完全贊同、完全贊同。"],["郭委員國文：對，這樣的情況底下，我要問一下，財政部有專責的人員或另外有思考到預算的編列，考量到這些文化資產的維護嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，如果是事業機構的話，像臺銀都有編預算，現在目前主要的古蹟都完成了。"],["郭委員國文：那財政部部本部呢？"],["阮次長清華：至於合庫的部分，我那一天也跟董事長講，要他儘快把三樓跟四樓的部分完成。"],["郭委員國文：你知道國有財產署還沒有想要盤點耶！"],["阮次長清華：另外，國產署……"],["郭委員國文：國有財產署很多地方的宿舍……"],["阮次長清華：對，我等一下再跟……"],["郭委員國文：都是一定年代以上，那個都應該被列為文化資產身分，這部分要如何去進行保存？"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：動不動隨便查，在臺北就一大堆了！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員先一項一項報告，關務署那個北投育成中心是經費的問題，我會儘量來協調，看能不能處理……"],["郭委員國文：你們會協調、會處理、會面對？將近1億！你不要期待臺北市政府去跟你無償撥管。"],["阮次長清華：我們來努力啦。"],["郭委員國文：臺北市政府算盤算得準啦，雖然現在都不用算盤，用CPU、用電腦啦。"],["阮次長清華：我們會拜託文化部那邊來協助，但是我們這邊自己也要努力啦。"],["郭委員國文：你們部本部要去面對這個問題！"],["阮次長清華：我們會編預算啦。"],["郭委員國文：彭署長，是不是請次長來面對這個問題，好好處理一下？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：你們110年以上的這種溫泉招待所，是日治時期的，臺灣罕見啊，居然放在那邊任由荒廢！這真的是完全沒有道理啊，我不要說沒有天理，但這完全沒有道理啊。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員的指教，其實我是古蹟迷啦，老實講，我對古蹟真的非常重視啦。"],["郭委員國文：那你的重視要表現給本席看啊！"],["阮次長清華：這的確涉及到經費的問題，真的是……"],["郭委員國文：好，那這樣子，請你們用具體的行動來表示你的重視啦，第一個，你要清查財政部所屬公股銀行相關機關具有歷史身分的所有建築物，你要清查一份。"],["阮次長清華：好，這個沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：第二個，你要如何維護這些文化資產進而活用，你要寫一份報告。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["郭委員國文：第三，關於整個預算的籌措，你要將具體時程及項目的編列列舉出來，可以吧！"],["阮次長清華：可以。另外我順便跟委員報告，其實事業單位那一部分反而相對單純，我覺得最主要就是國產署那一部分，它有接了三百四十三項……"],["郭委員國文：相對單純不一定做得好，我跟你講。"],["阮次長清華：我只是說相對，我的意思是說國產署接了三百四十三項，那才是大問題，為什麼？因為古蹟的修復……"],["郭委員國文：那署長來表示一下。"],["阮次長清華：我請署長來說明。"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，國產署經管的有三百四十三處，大概在兩、三年前，我們有跟文化部做了全省的總盤查……"],["郭委員國文：你是文化資產大戶耶！"],["曾署長國基：對，我們有做過全部的盤查，然後分類的處理方式，目前也編列了中長程計畫，這一期是到116年，我們編列了八億多，目前在做修復的部分大概有七、八處，已經完成的就是三山國王廟花了4,900萬……"],["郭委員國文：署長，你老是在公開招標，出去的金額你看有多少？少則數億、多則數百億啊！"],["曾署長國基：是，所以……"],["郭委員國文：撥出一筆錢來做文化資產，來處理國有財產署轄下的這些文化資產，難道沒有辦法嗎？"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，針對國有財產我們現在都有編列預算經費……"],["郭委員國文：要編多一點啦！"],["曾署長國基：明年是1億，本來是到兩億多，後來考慮到整個執行……"],["郭委員國文：我每次走在臺北街頭，看到這棟宿舍在那邊荒廢，我就說這一定是曾署長的。"],["曾署長國基：跟委員報告，不見得啦，就是說有一些老舊的房子……"],["郭委員國文：不見得嗎？你的嫌疑最大啦！"],["曾署長國基：我們現在也有一些標給包租代管業，譬如我們下個月就要公告我們有五十六處……"],["郭委員國文：有些東西可以進行社會住宅活化標租出去……"],["曾署長國基：都有在做……"],["郭委員國文：有些是進行標售，有些是應該予以活用，針對這部分，我看署長另外做一個報告給我好了，針對整個部的是次長，可以嗎？"],["曾署長國基：好，我們另外做一個報告，沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：好，那我接下來問一下次長，你知道針對臺美租稅協定，美國眾議院在1月31號已經表決通過了，但是參議院還沒有。就我的理解，通過的時候其實是用包裹方式在美國家庭及勞工稅收的減免法案當中，就這個部分，我們6月真的能夠簽訂嗎？有辦法嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得因為美國剛好在大選，然後這個案子……"],["郭委員國文：對啊，部長當初誇下海口說6月就可以簽訂。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，的確眾議院通過了，但是到了參議院的時候，因為它有一個載具，那個載具涉及到勞工減免稅的問題，但是勞工減免稅的部分一直喬不攏，所以就卡在那個地方，所以現在還在努力。"],["郭委員國文：卡在那邊？卡在參議院裡頭的政黨協商？"],["阮次長清華：在參議院那邊。"],["郭委員國文：卡在參議院那邊，然後卡多久你也很難判斷。"],["阮次長清華：我們的駐處一直都很努力。"],["郭委員國文：所以6月的簽署就有變數了？"],["阮次長清華：已經有積極去溝通，但我覺得很多東西的主動權在他們那邊。"],["郭委員國文：第一個，時程出現問題；第二個，我問內容的部分，因為臺灣是肥咖條款的簽署國，我們會提供資料給美國作為課稅的依據，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：那美國也會提供給我們嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，這個會。"],["郭委員國文：雙方依據都會有、都會提供，這一點你確定喔！"],["阮次長清華：現在是這樣子，我們跟美國之間的租稅協定跟全面的租稅協定……"],["郭委員國文：我得到的資訊好像不是喔！"],["阮次長清華：不是全面的租稅協定，但基本上它是有包括資訊交換……"],["郭委員國文：你最好問清楚喔！有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：它會另外簽一個租稅交換……"],["郭委員國文：你們會透過另外一個租稅協定，也就是共同申報準則作為資訊交換？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：也就是臺美租稅協定簽完之後，你還要簽署跨政府的協議（CAA）或是共同申報準則（CRS），才能夠達到這個目標對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我請司長針對細節再補充說明一下好不好？"],["郭委員國文：請司長補充說明一下，這一點很重要，肥咖條款要課到稅，這個很關鍵啊！"],["丁司長碧蓮：報告委員，肥咖條款針對肥咖的事情，目前金管會已經有主責跟他們簽了一個跨政府的合作協定，那是針對肥咖條款的部分，而這個是針對銀行帳戶的資訊。另外，以後我們如果跟美國簽訂租稅協定的話，在全面性的租稅協定裡面會有一個資訊交換的條文，就這個資訊交換條文而言，一般我們都會先做個案資訊交換，在個案資訊交換之後、雙方有一定的默契之後，我們才會進一步做到自動資訊交換，所以初期在全面性所得稅協定生效之後，如果要依照我們的租稅協定來執行資訊交換，最早期只有個案，還不會到CRS的部分，但是金管會在幾年前有跟美國簽訂跨政府合作協定，那個是為了肥咖的事情……"],["郭委員國文：就是透過臺美租稅協定，在金管會的努力之下，這些肥咖就可以現形了？"],["丁司長碧蓮：這是兩件……"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這是兩件事情，肥咖是關於金融資訊的交換，而剛才委員提的是稅務資訊的交換，稅務資訊交換現在已經包括在那個協定裡面、在那個草案裡面，將來還是基於互惠……"],["郭委員國文：好，我希望透過財政部跟金管會雙邊的努力，能夠讓肥咖早點現形，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝郭召委，接著請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政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政部所屬公股銀行相關機關具有歷史身份的所有的建築物你要清查一份 這個沒問題"},{"start":286.135,"end":311.771,"text":"第二,你要如何維護這些文化資產,進而如何活用,你要寫一份報告。第三,整個預算的綽綽,你要具體把時程還有項目的編列,把列出來,可以嗎?另外我順便跟委員報告,就是我其實我就事業單位那部分反而相對單純,我覺得最主要就是國產署那部分,它又接了343項...相對單純不一定做得好!"},{"start":316.354,"end":323.016,"text":"我只做相對,但是我的意思是說國產署他接了343項那才是大問題那是大問題,因為為什麼?因為股市的糾紛我是請那個署長來說"},{"start":330.659,"end":348.746,"text":"報告委員,我們國產署經管的有343處那我們大概3年前我們有跟文化部做了全省的總盤查你是文化資產大戶欸對對對,我們有做過全部的盤查然後分類的處理方式那目前也編列了中長城計畫"},{"start":349.906,"end":366.51,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":367,"end":370.743,"text":"我每次走到這個臺北街頭看到這棟宿舍在那邊翻回我就說啊這個一直曾署長的"},{"start":391.659,"end":395.962,"text":"有些東西可以進行社會住宅活化有些是進行飆售有些是應該予以活用我看你署長另外做一個報告給我好了整個布的是給"},{"start":419.735,"end":421.596,"text":"美國政府眾議院在1月31日已經表決通過了,但是參議院還沒有。"},{"start":437.564,"end":454.991,"text":"我理解的部分通過的時候其實是用包裹方式的在美國家庭及勞工稅收的減免法案當中就這個部分我們6月的部分真的能夠簽訂嗎我覺得是因為剛好是美國在大選"},{"start":456.412,"end":473.169,"text":"對阿,林部長當初誇下豪口,說6月就可以簽訂是這樣,我跟委員報告,的確眾議院通過了,但是到參議院的時候因為他有一個載具,那個載具涉及到一個勞工減免稅的問題"},{"start":476.292,"end":494.81,"text":"但是勞工減免稅那部分一直喬不攏,一直喬不攏,所以卡在那個地方。卡在參議院裡頭的政黨協商。在參議院那邊。參議院卡在那邊,那會卡多久你也很難判斷。我們的住宿一直都很無力去溝通。所以6月的簽署就有所變數了?"},{"start":495.851,"end":515.818,"text":"已經有積極去溝通了但是我是覺得那個很多東西我們主動選在他那邊第一個時程出現問題第二個我問內容的部分因為台灣是非卡條款的這個簽署國我們會提供資料給美國作為課稅的依據嘛對不對對那美國也會提供給我們嗎對對這個會雙方依據都會有對"},{"start":519.138,"end":520.66,"text":"我得到資訊好像不是喔你最好問清楚喔有嗎"},{"start":537.472,"end":556.628,"text":"他會另外簽一個就是租稅...你們會第一個透過一個另外一個租稅協定也就是共同申報準則來作為資訊交換對也就是台美租稅協定完之後你還要簽署跨政府的協議CAA或者呢共同申報準則CRS才能夠達到這個目標對不對"},{"start":561.553,"end":566.218,"text":"市長說明一下這一點很重要哦那肥咖條款你要去課稅這個很關鍵啊"},{"start":568.21,"end":582.643,"text":"報告委員,我們現在肥咖條款針對肥咖的事情目前金管會已經有主責跟他們簽了跨政府的合作協定,那是針對肥咖條款的部分,那這個是針對銀行帳戶的資訊"},{"start":588.268,"end":610.539,"text":"另外我們依據我們依據我們以後如果跟美國簽訂租稅協定的話在我們租稅協定全面性的租稅協定裡面會有一個資訊交換的條文那這個資訊交換的條文一般我們都會先做個案資訊交換那個案資訊交換之後雙方有一定的默契之後"},{"start":611.059,"end":611.079,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":638.331,"end":642.673,"text":"通過臺美租稅協定在金管會的努力情況底下這些肥咖就可以現行了"}]}},{"id":"152578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc307df5fbf727dbc6a3974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f0ee0c4d3fa6fe9775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:41:32 - 09:50:07","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-12"},"duration":515,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:50:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:41:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（9時41分）謝謝主席，我想要請高副主委跟林次長。"],["主席：我們請以上兩位。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請問一下，現在所謂的三大資料中心好像都即將在臺灣設立，我們知道AI因為最近的發展，使得資料中心變成一個高耗能的設施，對於未來AI中心設立以後，我看到相關報導說到，有可能會用掉將近37億度的電，占太陽能光電總發電量的50%，到底我們的綠電目前是不是充足的？以及未來如果資料中心生成的時候，大家也提到，在國際主要的國家都希望資料中心能夠使用綠電的情況下，未來臺灣對於相關的規劃是如何？"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員。剛剛你提到資料中心耗電的狀況跟AI的關聯性，我想主要是生成式AI在做基本的學習運算的時候會耗很多電，但是我們現在所瞭解的部分，這些基本的生成式AI的運算事實上都不在目前的資料中心運作，我想這個部分先做一個澄清、說明。至於您剛剛提到國內的綠能供應是不是足夠？我們今年（113年）預估我們的綠電將近有413億度的生產，在供應給企業的需求上，應該是足夠來對現在一些產業在需要綠電的過程當中的需求。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是你知道嗎？國發會未來也期待，因為要提高我們生成式AI的產業發展，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來AI產業、生成式AI的發展會不會用到電？如果要用到電，是不是會要求它用綠電？如果它要求綠電的時候，對國內綠電的衝擊會如何？畢竟我們知道按照我們淨零的路徑來講，目前臺灣的綠電並沒有達到我們預計的目標。高副主委，關於這個部分，我們怎麼做？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想AI對臺灣產業的衝擊跟影響，一個就是，我們是AI伺服器還有一些半導體晶片的生產者、提供者；另外一個就是，將來各個產業都會運用到AI的技術去提升它整個產業發展模式跟生產力，所以其實AI對臺灣用電影響的這一塊，我覺得要考慮的應該是在AI晶片及伺服器的生產廠商所要用的一些綠電。至於在應用部分，基本上我們就是應用它的大型語言模型或是程式，那部分的影響可能沒有那麼大。不過我覺得基本上經濟部在對於未來臺灣產業發展或是結構變化所需要用的用電量，尤其是綠電方面，其實他們都已經有一些相關的規劃。"],["謝委員衣鳯：次長，有嗎？有相關的規劃嗎？"],["林次長全能：我剛剛提到113年我們將近有413億度的綠電，未來我們在太陽光電跟離岸風電，事實上每年都有很明確的發展目標，比如說離岸風力的發展，每年都會有將近1.5GW的量設置進去，這個部分會來滿足現在優先需要綠電的產業的需求。"],["謝委員衣鳯：準經濟部長郭智輝說核能是乾淨能源，你們怎麼看？"],["林次長全能：我想核能是乾淨的，在全球上應該是很明確的發展趨勢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來是不是有可能用到核電？如果要全面性的降低發電成本的時候。"],["林次長全能：我們對任何的能源都是多元化而且是持續的關注，不過核電在臺灣有幾個關鍵的問題必須解決，一個是核能安全是不是能夠完全確保？另外一個就是核廢料是不是可以做適當的處理？當然社會的共識非常重要，這幾個關鍵的前提如果能夠有適當的處理，當然可以去持續關注這樣的發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。對於這樣的部分，行政院會提出相關的修法嗎？還是你們只是做準備？"],["林次長全能：我想我們應該是要先做評估分析……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你把這個東西交給立法院來……"],["林次長全能：才會去做後續的討論吧，這個過程應該是這樣嚴謹地來處理會比較好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問高副，像你們在講的生成式AI，未來如果這些軟體的發展在產生的時候，有可能在資料蒐集的時候會用到原創版權或者是相關的著作權，這個部分未來要怎麼界定？以及國發會是不是已經做好相關修法的調適？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，因為我們要因應生成式AI的出現，其實行政院裡面有一個跨部會的AI法制小組，之前是由羅秉成政委、本會主委還有國科會主委共同主持，這個AI小組裡面有針對法制面，譬如說，基本法要怎麼樣，就由國科會負責；您剛才說的有沒有涉及智財權的，就會由經濟部負責；然後其他相關部會針對生成式AI衝撞它現行法制的部分，各部會也會盤點它現行的法規，現在都在進行當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有一個，如果生成式AI的內容沒有經過監管或者控制的時候，有可能會危害社會的穩定跟政權，像美國前總統川普被捕，現在在網路上出現的照片就是用AI做成的，或者是普丁入獄等等，這些有可能會影響到總統大選。像這樣子的情況，未來要怎麼樣因應呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有關於打詐、假訊息這一部分，其實……"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為這也是生成式AI的一部分。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，這部分也會在那個小組裡面，各主責相關的部會會提出一些因應的作法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們現在進行的情況是如何？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們已經開過兩次高層會議，因為這個平臺下面還有工作小組，工作小組的主責單位就是國科會，國科會除了基本法以外，他還要統籌各相關部會針對AI對他們的衝擊，包括剛才委員講到的假訊息等等的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會影響選舉的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，對，他們都有在處理這個課題，謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":2.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.598468750000002,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.80034375,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.454093750000002,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.410968750000002,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.354093750000004,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.43659375000001,"end":131.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.72284375,"end":140.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.85284375,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.42721875,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.77096875,"end":178.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.93534375000002,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.33221875,"end":205.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.56659375,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.10471875000002,"end":254.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.10096875000002,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.11784375000002,"end":279.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.05471875,"end":280.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.64534375,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.55596875000003,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.15034375,"end":294.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.24659375000005,"end":297.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.16159375,"end":301.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.31346875,"end":298.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.07659375000003,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.09909375,"end":320.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.62971875,"end":327.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.20346875,"end":332.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.78034375000004,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.16409375,"end":337.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.32846875,"end":348.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.72909375,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.34346875,"end":379.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.04346875000005,"end":379.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.06034375,"end":379.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.11096875000004,"end":407.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.13596875,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.79534375000003,"end":430.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.96784375000004,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.90596875000006,"end":449.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.04909375000005,"end":451.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.03471875,"end":463.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.50284375,"end":463.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.26221875000005,"end":464.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.41409375,"end":480.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.04034375000003,"end":481.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.82909375,"end":481.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.86284375,"end":481.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.87971875000005,"end":481.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.91346875000005,"end":481.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.93034375,"end":481.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.99784375,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.03159375,"end":489.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.20346875,"end":489.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.62534375,"end":492.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.64221875000004,"end":489.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.27471875000003,"end":492.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.51096875,"end":497.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.18096875000003,"end":510.01034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.83034375000005,"end":500.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.84721875,"end":501.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.37034375,"end":501.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.42909375000005,"end":503.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.44596875,"end":504.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.18846875,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.28971875,"end":506.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.73596875000004,"end":511.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.6553437499999,"end":514.38096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":18.766,"text":"接下來我們請謝依鳳委員請做詢答。謝謝主席。我想要請高副主委跟林次長。我們請以上兩位。"},{"start":26.201,"end":46.046,"text":"我想請問一下就是說現在我們其實在所謂的資料中心三大資料中心好像都即將要在台灣來設立那我們知道說AI其實因為最近的發展使得就是資料中心變成一個高耗能的這樣子的一個設施"},{"start":46.786,"end":70.661,"text":"那有可能說對於我們的就是說未來可能AI中心設立以後我看到相關的報導說到有可能會用掉就是將近37億度的電那佔我們太陽能光電的總發電量的50%那到底因為畢竟我們的綠電目前到底是不是充足的"},{"start":71.061,"end":87.032,"text":"以及就是未來如果資料中心的生成的時候那大家也提到像國際主要的國家都希望這個就是資料中心能夠使用綠電的情況下那未來台灣對於相關的規劃是如何?"},{"start":90.008,"end":117.506,"text":"謝謝委員我想剛剛你提到那個資料中心耗電的狀況跟AI的一個這個關聯性我想主要是AI主要是生成式的AI在做基本的這個學習運算的時候會耗很多電但是我們現在所了解的部分這些基本的一個生成式AI的運算事實上都不在現在目前的一個資料中心正在運作我想這個部分先做一個這個澄清說明"},{"start":118.226,"end":129.67,"text":"那至於您剛剛提到的部分就是國內的綠能的供應是不是足夠我想我們今年預估113年今年預估我們的綠電將近有413億度的綠電的生產我想在供應給企業的需求上應該是可以足夠來對我們現在一些產業在需要綠電的過程當中所需求"},{"start":141.002,"end":162.819,"text":"但你知道嗎就是國發會未來他們也期待就是說因為要提高我們的生成式的AI的產業發展嘛對不對那未來就是AI的產業的生成式的AI的發展會不會用到電那用到電是不是會要求他用綠電那如果他要求綠電的時候對國內的"},{"start":164.78,"end":168.224,"text":"案 ﹚立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第13條條文修正草案案 ﹚立法院第12會期經濟委員會第13條條文修正草案"},{"start":180.097,"end":180.117,"text":"案。"},{"start":195.967,"end":215.193,"text":"將來各個產業都會應用到AI的技術去提升它整個的產業發展模式跟它的整個的生產力。所以呢其實AI對台灣用電的影響的這一塊呢其實我覺得可能必須要考慮的就是我們在那個應該就是在"},{"start":217.634,"end":220.297,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":239.076,"end":240.879,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":254.618,"end":278.019,"text":"我剛剛提到部分說是113年我們將近413億度的這個綠電那未來我們在這個太陽光電跟離岸風電事實上每年都有很明確的這個發展的一個這個目標比如說我們這個離岸風力的一個發展每年都會將近1.5個GW的一個這樣的量設置進去我想這個部分會來滿足我們現在優先需要這個綠電的這些產業的需求"},{"start":280.717,"end":301.144,"text":"那準經濟部長郭志輝他說就是核能是乾淨能源那你們怎麼看我想核能是乾淨在全球上應該是很明確的一個這個發展的一個趨勢那未來是不是有可能用到核電如果要全面性的降低發電成本的時候"},{"start":302.23,"end":325.982,"text":"我們對任何的這個能源都是多元化而且是這個持續的關注不過核電在台灣他有幾個這個關鍵的問題必須解決一個是核能安全是能夠完全確保另外一個部分就是核廢料是不是可以做適當的處理當然社會共識非常重要這幾個關鍵的前提如果能夠有適當的處理當然可以去持續關注這樣的一個發展"},{"start":327.287,"end":339.195,"text":"那對於這樣的部分,那行政院會提出相關的修法嗎?我想我們應該是要先做評估分析,再會去做後續的一個討論吧。我想這個過程應該是這樣嚴謹的來做處理會比較好。"},{"start":349.517,"end":378.541,"text":"我想請問一下高福那個像你們在講的就是說生成式的AI那生成式的AI未來如果就是說就是像這些軟體的發展在產生的時候有可能會在資料收集的時候會用到就是原創的這個版權或者是相關的著作權那這個部分未來怎麼界定以及你們國發會是不是已經做好相關的就是修法的那個"},{"start":379.221,"end":380.082,"text":"案 與委員報告 。"},{"start":408.208,"end":411.211,"text":"案 及第十三條條文修正草案 案 及第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":430.092,"end":457.3,"text":"還有一個就是就是如果深層市的AI沒有經過就是內容沒有經過監管或者控制的時候有可能會危害就是社會的穩定跟政權例如說像美國前總統川普跟被捕就是現在在網路上有出現的照片就是用AI做成的就是他川普被捕或者是普丁入獄這樣子的情況那有可能會影響到總統大選"},{"start":459.301,"end":479.806,"text":"那像這樣子的情況,未來怎麼樣子因應呢?有關於這個就是打詐、假訊息這一部分其實因為這也是深層式AI的一部分對,這部分也會在那個小組裡面由各組織相關的部會它會提出一些因應的做法這樣子"},{"start":480.366,"end":504.875,"text":"那你們現在進行的情況是如何我們已經開過兩次的高層的會議然後因為這個平台裡面下面還有工作小組那工作小組是組的單位就是國科會那國科會他就是說他基本法要統籌各相關部會針對AI對他們的這些包括剛才委員講到的這個就是假的那些訊息會影響選舉的對他們都會有在處理這個課題這樣子好謝謝"},{"start":510.836,"end":510.856,"text":"案。」"}]}},{"id":"152577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309932fd19721a2467fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f0756ed8debd6e0f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:41:04 - 09:49:22","影片長度":"00:08:18","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-21"},"duration":498,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:49:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:41:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":116,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時41分）謝謝主席，有請外交部陳立國常次。"],["主席：請外交部陳常次。"],["羅委員美玲：次長，剛剛聽了各個部會的報告，其實聽完心情是還蠻沉重的，因為中國近幾年來確實是無所不用其極，用各種管道、用各種方式，比如說經過文化、教育、民族情感、金錢外交，甚至傳遞假訊息對僑胞進行統戰，來孤立臺灣。我想這對我們的僑務工作來講，未來會更加的艱辛，尤其我從國外來，對這部分感觸會非常的深，比起二、三十年前，其實臺灣對於海外僑界的影響力，確實是不若以往，跟以前比真的差有一段距離，可是我在想臺灣也不要氣餒，因為其實就像剛剛各位所報告的，我們有自由民主，我們有法治、人權，這些其實都已經受到很多國家的見證跟肯定，我想僑界未來應該也會看到跟支持。","接下來我想要請教次長的是另外一個議題，次長，您知道有個駭客網站叫做BreachForums嗎？你知道有這個網站嗎？"],["陳次長立國：是。"],["羅委員美玲：這個我想應該曉得啦！像今年4月17號的時候，有一個ID為Tonya的網友，他貼出了一篇標題叫做「LEAKED FILES FROM MOFA」這樣子的貼文，貼文裡面很多都是外交部的機密文件，比如說有什麼呢？有國際合作發展基金會針對WHA辦理氣候變遷與健康，它要請外交部派員的這個公文；也有外交部跟各邦國在113年2月燈號簡表，這都是密件；甚至駐美代表處的電報也流出來了，駐美代表處經濟組的公文，這些密件也都張貼在這個網站。","再來，兩天之後，又有一個叫tonyb的，他4月19號就張貼了蕭美琴準副總統從美國返國，准予免查驗一共價值三萬多臺幣的23瓶酒的這個公文，而且這公文裡面還附了酒類清單，清清楚楚的都附在上面。甚至這個tonyb還更明目張膽的說：「還有很多的內容，請有興趣的人付錢換取更多的內幕。」好，事隔一個月，我想請問外交部，我們有做清查了嗎？到底流出的管道是哪裡、是從哪些管道流出來的、是誰流出這些資料，有沒有做清查？我們的網站被駭了嗎？請問次長。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員對於這些事情的重視跟詢問，的確在這次的事件發生之後，以及過去所發生任何疑似資安的事件，外交部都會非常仔細認真、嚴格、嚴謹的去調查，這次也不例外。所以經過我們各項的努力作為，並且邀請其他相關機關的協助徹查、溯源，我們的結果是這次三項重要的情況是，第一個，我們排除是一個資安事件；第二個，我們也排除有內部洩密的這種可能；第三，也就是說這個案件本身的確在你所列舉的這麼多的重要文件裡面，因為外交部的防密資安作為都有很多的比如說流水編號、密碼等等的，所以可以透過細部的查證瞭解到並非從外交部流出，所以最後一個可能……"],["羅委員美玲：那是從哪些地方流出？"],["陳次長立國：對不起。"],["羅委員美玲：是從哪個管道流出來的？"],["陳次長立國：這個部分，當然現在檢調機關會去瞭解跟偵查，但是我剛剛說明的是針對委員提問外交部的部分有沒有這樣的疑慮？沒有。所以包括第三部分，接下來其他是由什麼樣的管道漏出，以及繼續瞭解未來如何去防堵，我們會繼續加強，包括本部定期的系統監控，系統的弱點如何去強化，都會持續確保我們資安的系統安全無虞。"],["羅委員美玲：我想再請教一下次長，因為次長現在的回答，其實好像沒有回答到我想要的問題，譬如說Tonya也好、tonyb也好，他們的身分如何，這有查出來了嗎？"],["陳次長立國：關於這一點，因為事實上涉及它的來源，而很多來源是難以追溯的，而且他的……"],["羅委員美玲：難以追溯？"],["陳次長立國：IP都會經過轉換，甚至經過第三個國家，等於說這些追查的難度當然非常高。我們剛剛所表達跟訴說的重點在於是不是資安事件？是不是被駭？是不是有外交部的員工從內部流出？這些都不是。"],["羅委員美玲：喔，這樣子，我們機密的文件，可以隨意張貼在任何一個網站，可是看起來外交部好像還是不清楚這個是從哪個管道出來的。其實這不是單一事件，因為在2023年，這個論壇還有另外一個叫做niceday009的你知道嗎？這個人士，他張貼了臺灣情報人員的機密檔案，然後檔案裡面包含了臺灣情報人員基本的個人資料、家庭背景、工作條件、人格特質、日常活動、政治傾向等等。所以我在想這絕對不是單一事件，這個是很嚴重的事情耶！次長，這個部分事隔一個多月，我們好像除了說不是外交部流出來的之外，其他的訊息好像還無法掌握的感覺耶！"],["陳次長立國：應該這樣來描述比較正確，有關於這個文件到底是如何外流，當然我們非常重視，尤其是跟這個案子相關的機關來互相資訊交流，然後配合整個情況的調查，當然包括我們的檢警機關可能會持續、深入去瞭解這個案件。剛剛最後一點補充……"],["羅委員美玲：所以這個案件還在偵辦當中？"],["陳次長立國：這個要由其他相關負責的機關來回答，就行政機關而言我們要處理的部分，是有關於本部的行政職責……"],["羅委員美玲：所以你確認你們裡面沒有內鬼就是了？"],["陳次長立國：是的，最後一點當然是……"],["羅委員美玲：已經確認過了嗎？如何……"],["陳次長立國：因為相關文件所表露出的還有許多其他相關機關，我們現在看到這樣一個因為駭客偷竊文件技術的發達，還有IP位址的隱藏等等……"],["羅委員美玲：可是次長您剛才說這次不是被駭啊，你也覺得這不是被駭。"],["陳次長立國：我的意思是強調文件被竊取這樣的技術還有管道，當然越來越多元、科技越來越發達，但我們從外交部角度來看，會持續全力來捍衛、保護我們資安還有文件的機敏。整體來看，這是一個非常複雜的工程，包括我們其他很多負責資安的單位，包括上次國安會、國安局很多的機關，每一個都在慎重努力的處理，希望不要有這種外洩的事件，所以包括我們的政風處、資電處，在這個案子裡面，我們都有非常審慎的調查。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，謝謝次長。其實我覺得這也是滿嚴重的一個問題，外交部真的是要審慎以對，如此機密的文件被張貼在這一些駭客網站，我們真的不得不慎，這對國家安全是一個很大的警訊啦，我是這麼覺得。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員指教。"],["羅委員美玲：這部分大家應該要嚴肅看待，OK，以上，謝謝。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":5.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.08346875,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.74846875,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.91721875,"end":52.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.46534375,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.78096875000001,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.25721875,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.66346875000002,"end":253.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.81409375,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.43471875000003,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.59034375000002,"end":254.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.60721875000002,"end":254.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.62409375000001,"end":254.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.64096875,"end":255.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.67471875,"end":255.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.29909375000003,"end":257.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.08784375,"end":290.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.68596875000003,"end":302.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.42659375,"end":329.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.25659375000004,"end":312.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.32096875,"end":332.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.21096875,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.34034375000005,"end":342.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.49221875,"end":360.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.78471875,"end":366.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.12971875000005,"end":382.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.68846875,"end":407.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.65534375000004,"end":408.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.56221875,"end":416.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.37534375,"end":420.25221875000005},{"speaker":"S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for MOFA這樣子的一個貼文那這貼文裡面呢很多都是外交部的機密文件比如說有什麼呢有國際發展合作基金針對WHA辦理氣候變遷與健康他要請外交部派員的這個公文"},{"start":128.125,"end":133.63,"text":"外交部及各邦國在113年2月登號檢表,甚至駐美代表處的電報也流出,駐美代表處經濟組的公文密件也都張貼在這個網站。"},{"start":144.079,"end":150.608,"text":"那再來兩天之後有一個叫Tony V的他在底下呢就4月19號就張貼了蕭美琴準副總統從美國返國准以免查驗一共價值3萬多台幣的"},{"start":159.679,"end":170.025,"text":"23瓶酒的這個公文而且這公文裡面還附了酒類清單清清楚楚的都附在上面那甚至這個Tony B還更明目張膽的說還有很多的內容請有興趣的人付錢換取更多的這個內幕事隔一個月我想請問外交部我們有做清查了嗎?到底流出的管道是什麼?"},{"start":181.832,"end":208.888,"text":"是哪裏?是從哪些管道流出來的?是誰流出這些資料?有沒有做清查?我們的網站被害了嗎?請問次長。謝謝委員對於這些事情的重視跟詢問。那麼的確在這一次的事件發生之後以及過去所發生任何的疑似治安的事件外交部都會非常仔細認真嚴格的嚴謹的去調查那這一次也不例外"},{"start":209.848,"end":226.345,"text":"所以經過我們各項的努力作為並且邀請其他相關機關的協助徹查溯源那麼我們的結果是這一次的三項重要的情況是第一個我們排除是一個治安事件"},{"start":226.886,"end":227.486,"text":"哪些地方流出?"},{"start":254.76,"end":281.698,"text":"對不起是從哪個管道流出來的這個部分當然現在有檢調機關會去做了解跟偵查但是我剛剛說明的是針對委員提問外交部的部分有沒有這樣的疑慮沒有那所以包括第三部分就是說那接下來其他是由什麼樣的管道露出以及那麼接下來如果繼續去了解這個未來如何去防堵那我們會繼續加強我們包括本部如果說定期的系統監控"},{"start":290.768,"end":302.16,"text":"我只想請教一下次長,因為次長您現在的回答其實好像沒有回答到我想要的這個問題。比如說,這個Tony A也好,Tony B也好,他們的身份如何?這有查出來了嗎?"},{"start":303.936,"end":329.374,"text":"關於這一點的話因為這個事實上涉及它的來源那麼很多來源是難以追溯的而且它的IP的這種都會經過轉換或者甚至經過第三個國家等於說這些追查的難度當然會非常高那我們現在剛剛所表達跟訴說的重點是在於說是不是治安事件是不是被害是不是有外交部的員工內部流出這些都不是"},{"start":331.608,"end":354.485,"text":"那這樣子的話我們的機密的文件可以隨意的裝貼在任何一個網站可是看起來外交部好像還不清楚這個是從哪個管道出來的其實這不是單一事件因為在2023年這個論壇還有另外一個叫做NightStay009的知道嗎有這個人士他裝貼了台灣情報人員的機密檔案然後這個檔案裡面包含了這個"},{"start":361.17,"end":381.97,"text":"臺灣情報人員的基本的個人資料、家庭背景、工作條件、人口特質、日常活動、政治傾向等等所以我在想說這絕對不是單一事件這個是很嚴重的事情欸次長這個部分的話是個一個多月好像我們好像除了說不是我們外交部流出來的之外其他的訊息好像還無法掌握的感覺"},{"start":383.171,"end":406.949,"text":"到底應該是說這樣來描述比較正確而是說有關於這個文件到底是如何外流當然我們會非常重視而且會請尤其是這個案子相關的機關來互相資訊交流然後配合整個情況的調查那當然這也是包括我們的檢舉機關可能會持續會深入去了解這個案件那麼剛剛最後一點補充這個要由其他的相關的負責的機關來回答"},{"start":411.252,"end":416.355,"text":"所以你們確認你們裡面是沒有內鬼就是了?確定確認過了嗎?因為相關的文件所表露出的還有許多的其他相關機關所以等於是說我們現在看到這樣一個因為駭客技術的發達去偷竊文件的技術發達"},{"start":433.746,"end":444.654,"text":"可是市長您剛才說這不是被害啊你也覺得這不是被害我的意思是在強調說文件被竊取這樣的技術還有管道其實當然越來越多元科技越來越發達那我們當然從外交部的角度來看"},{"start":448.357,"end":469.735,"text":"委員會持續全力來捍衛保護我們的資安的還有我們的文件的機敏那但是整體來看這是一個非常複雜的工程包括我們其他很多負責資安包括上市國安會包括國安局很多的機關每一個都在慎重努力的處理希望不要有這種外洩的事件所以包括我們的偵訪處、自列處在這個案子裡面我們都有非常審慎的調查"},{"start":471.857,"end":476.68,"text":"OK好謝謝次長其實我覺得這也是蠻嚴重的一個問題真的是外交部要審慎以對如此機密的這些文件會被張貼在這些駭客網站我們真的不得不慎這跟國家安全有是一個很大的警訊我是這麼覺得所以這部分應該要大家嚴肅看待OK好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309c3acac1aef603249d061ebe8e501d6de01ba30ddb4afe0f330ffbcd7353171c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:35:49 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優質教育不平等以及負責任的生產消費這是全世界現在一致的共識也是我們共同努力的目標而營養午餐過去到現在當然是良善的一個用意也是保障我們所有學童的營養健康其實說實在話我們在講現在所有學童全國裡面"},{"start":46.738,"end":62.767,"text":"最多人使用而且能夠均衡營養以及最重視的一餐就是營養午餐但是過去我們在營養午餐的這個工以及辦理的方面確實還是三不五時都有相關的一個狀況發生所以怎麼樣能夠彌補這樣子的一個狀況發生就是有賴專法的一個設定"},{"start":67.589,"end":88.439,"text":"今天主席所討論訂立的一個提綱其實這幾個提綱我都可以直接回答每一個問題都是是我們一定要做經歷那麼多的重大食安事件午餐專法是否要訂相關的機制當然是要讓學生吃得安全健康跟安心這沒有例外"},{"start":89.793,"end":103.054,"text":"學校午餐影響學童的健康成長關鍵要透過午餐專法加強推動飲食教育達成正確的飲食習慣當然是而且應該現在就要做了過去沒做已經晚了我們現在趕快學"},{"start":106.137,"end":120.282,"text":"中央及地方政府針對學校午餐﹚投入資源﹚人力協助以及法規制定﹚讓我們學校工餐完善﹚當然是﹚以及偏鄉及偏遠地區的學校﹚人力資源不足﹚應該要有改善"},{"start":120.902,"end":146.43,"text":"所以我們這一個專法就是要彌補這四大面向的一個不足的地方這一點也是為什麼我非常負責任也希望能夠跟各位先進業者一起共同來做下把現行的學校衛生法部分條文雖然已經有規範學校餐廳廚師 廚房管理以及團餐的食材準備但是法規內容都還僅限於原則性的規範"},{"start":147.33,"end":173.84,"text":"根本沒有針對實質的層面以及大家應該負責的地方來去做一個明確的一個要求所以針對學校公餐另訂專法符合當今學校飲食跟教育教育營養教育所需並且參考日本的學校給食法來立法我想這學校的飲食不只限於營養午餐的供給更應該要兼顧營養教育以及健康的目的"},{"start":175.821,"end":189.906,"text":"其實我自己的選區就是有所謂的偏鄉地區偏遠地區我過去也在教育文化委員會裡面質詢過教育部長我們常講營養士也好午餐秘書也好其實就應該是要專責專職專任"},{"start":192.227,"end":192.487,"text":"我那時候也有問"},{"start":220.569,"end":220.629,"text":"洪孟楷議員"},{"start":245.987,"end":253.447,"text":"合理的學校以及合理的行政事務能夠有專人來去做負擔 來去做負荷"},{"start":254.383,"end":282.41,"text":"而不是真的都變成是說新的老師新的教師進來之後他相對是比較倒霉所以這一點是我們共同在推動學校午餐法法制化的過程裡面我們一定要開宗明義並且也要求政府部門一定要重視這樣的事情我常常在講立法的過程裡面或是行政機關在做事的時候其實要做與不做只要看兩點"},{"start":283.803,"end":297.916,"text":"第一有沒有錢第二有沒有人其他都是空話如果說政府機關開宗明義講的冠冕堂皇或是漂亮的話誰都會講但是有錢有人才是重點"},{"start":298.937,"end":319.083,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們非常在意的就是當學校公參法我們真的要立專法的時候也請相關單位一定要去突破要去思考我們怎麼樣把原額的這樣限制或者是用另外聘任的一個方式有專責專職的人以及你的預算編列一定要專款專用"},{"start":320.623,"end":335.663,"text":"最後我想在保障學生的身心發展健康以及培養學生尊重珍惜食物觀念提供安全營養健康公平的校園飲食這一點都是我們共同追求的目標所以"},{"start":337.236,"end":361.564,"text":"責無旁貸的重大任務我身為兩個孩子的父親我也是在教育文化委員會裡面我們希望一起共同推動的立法委員所以今天特別利用這個機會我把我的意見表達並且我的立場非常說明的非常清楚我也希望等一下雖然我離開但是我的辦公室也會持續的聆聽各位先進的高見"},{"start":362.324,"end":362.664,"text":"洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"152575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3012dc2b6c47f4984ec1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f10434b53eb014cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:37:38 - 09:40:12","影片長度":"00:02:34","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":154,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:40:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:37:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":126,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時37分）謝謝各位。我今天主要也是就揭弊者保護法的部分加以說明，跟其他委員或行政院版本類似的，因為剛剛其他委員有說明了，我就不多做說明。","我主要的部分就是放在有關洩密的刑責，因為我發現各個版本中，只有我跟洪孟楷委員有洩密的刑責，當然其他人並不是說沒有，而是他回歸到刑法第一百三十二條跟第三百十六條。我們重視洩密的部分，主要是因為我們發現，即使在講求偵查不公開的檢方、法務部、廉政署現在也幾乎已是偵查大公開，有一些雜誌甚至已經變成了法務部公報，只要有重大案件，隔天或同一個禮拜該週刊就會把完整詳細的內容全部公布在外。","也就是說在這個偵查大公開的時代，我們為了保障揭弊者，我認為要把洩漏秘密的這些人科以刑事責任，尤其是公務員的部分，公務員如果在瞭解洩密者的身分卻對外公布這些揭弊者的身分，這都一定要用比較重的刑責去加以規範，這樣才會讓相關的揭弊者敢勇於出面。我相信在揭弊者保護法中，訂定相關的刑責，對於保護揭弊者一定會起到一定的法律效果。","私部門的部分，我們也認為應該要有相關刑責的設計，因為目前譬如說食品安全等等的問題、環境污染等等的問題，雖然這個都是民間企業，但是這些對於國家、對於社會的損害其實更甚於公部門的行政行為所造成的損害，所以我認為即便是私部門，如果私部門領域的相關人等在知悉揭弊者的身分，又再加以洩漏的話，也應該要有一定刑責的設計。這就是我跟其他委員提出來的版本有一點不同的地方，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：提案說明的委員已經說明完畢，接下來我們請機關代表報告，發言時間3分鐘。","首先我們請法務部黃次長報告。"],["黃次長謀信：主席、各位委員。報告主席，因為今天要審查兩個部分，是否本人先就刑法第三百三十九條之四修正草案的部分提出報告？有關揭弊者保護法草案的部分，另外由我們廉政署署長來報告？"],["主席：好。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。主席、各位委員、各位先生女士，大家好。今天奉邀就中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四修正草案的部分列席報告並備質詢。為了完善我國打詐專法及執法的相關法規，行政院已經在今年5月9號院會通過了一個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案，其中與今天審查有關的部分、懲詐的部分，在該條例裡面已經就高額的詐欺、複合式的詐欺犯罪以及在境外對境內的詐欺犯罪提高了相關刑罰的刑度，同時也增加了有關於自首、自白減輕責任的規定，而且提高了假釋的門檻，以及不得假釋的相關規定。為了澈底剝奪犯罪所得，杜絕整個犯罪誘因，也增加了擴大利得的沒收，以及義務沒收的規定。","今天各位委員所提修法的目的，本部均表贊同，其中有關各委員提高刑度修正草案的部分，在行政院所通過的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案裡面，提高刑度的部分也有相關的明定。以下就各委員的版本，簡單地回應如下：","第一個，有關提高法定刑的部分，修刑法第三百三十九條之四或第三百三十九條，如果沒有區分整個個案的情節，一律加重詐欺的法定刑度，會造成一些犯罪情節事實上比較輕微，而且犯罪所得比較低的個案特殊狀況之下，一律處以相同的刑責，這是不是符合罪責相當性原則，敬請再酌。","另外，有版本提到加重首謀二分之一的規定，並沒有設立獨立刑罰的規定，這跟我們刑罰的體例不符，我們刑罰就首謀通常都會做一個特別的規定。","另外，就犯罪被害人兩個人以上加重刑責的規定，這也跟我們刑法上的體例未合，我們刑法上只有就行為的加重，而就犯罪人數、被害人人數加重的規定，刑法上並沒有這樣子的體例。","另外，有關提到犯罪所得超過100萬以上要加重的規定，相關構成要件犯罪所得的概念，到底是個人的犯罪所得還是整個集團的犯罪所得，並非明確，而且犯罪所得跟詐騙的金額其實也是不等同的，用犯罪所得超過100萬來做加重的事由，是否適當，也敬請再酌。","另外，有關提到針對金融機構以及電信事業負責人跟從業人員利用職務的機會，作為一個加重詐欺的構成要件，本部認為，在特殊的構成要件裡面，其實這些從業人員已經會構成特別背信或特別的刑罰規定，是否再特別處理，容請再酌。","另外，有提到以投資詐騙做一個特別刑罰的規定，這部分理由也同前，銀行法裡面其實已經有一些特別的規定，是不是要在刑法裡面做特別的處理，也請再酌。","另外，有關同一行為構成詐欺或組織犯罪條例，作為排除想像競合犯的規定，做一個獨立刑罰的規定，本部是認為現行刑法裡面有關於想像競合犯的規定，到底是要加重二分之一，或者是要廢除，或者如同這個草案所提的，另外訂定一個獨立的刑罰規定，用加重刑罰來處理，這可以再討論。","以上是本部就各委員版的意見，以上補充，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","第二案的部分，我們請法務部廉政署莊署長報告。"],["莊署長榮松：主席、委員，還有與會的先進，大家好。有關今天排審的揭弊法草案，總共有廖偉翔等6名委員還有民眾黨黨團的版本，以下謹就推動揭弊者保護法的立法策略及內容進行報告，敬請指教。","第一個是有關立法策略的部分，本部從101年就由廉政署開始進行法制作業的研究調查，也召開過多次的座談會、研討會，邀請產官學界一起來討論，到目前為止也提過15個版本，行政院也召開過12次的審查會，對於推動揭弊者保護的工作，我們法務部及廉政署的同仁事實上都很專心跟認真地在推動，這部分也要先在這裡跟各位委員做一個說明。","因為這個草案影響層面比較大，各界就立法模式、弊端項目範圍，還有通報的程序等多有建言，為了要求立法的審慎，在今年我們再度調整立法策略為公私分流以及行政立法雙軌併行，私部門部分以行政指導來推動，未來再逐步擴大到法制化的範圍。理由大概有幾點，第一點就是，我們是尊重私部門的公司治理，避免影響勞資雙方的信任度，造成人資管理的困難，對企業的衝擊太大；第二點就是，民眾對於公部門的清廉要求是高於私部門的，而且公部門目前的制度比較完善，它來推動的話，爭議會比較低；第三點，經過盤點私部門的單行法規，現在有很多已經有納入吹哨條款，涵蓋有身分保密、有檢舉獎金、有人身的保護，還有工作權益的保障以及洩密罰則等等，並不是沒有保護；第四點，行政院在112年的3月23日，在中央廉政委員會裡面有決議要來強化私部門行政指導的措施，有核定一個行政院推動揭弊者保護專案，目前推動的成效也不錯。基於以上的理由，經過行政院在113年的2月23日邀請相關機關召開第12次的審查會後，調整立法策略為公私分流、立法行政雙軌併行，未來再循序漸進來深化揭弊保護，再逐步擴及私部門的法制化。","接下來就有關草案架構的內容來加以說明，因為法務部最新的草案內容架構是，特定之人因特定之事向特定之人或機關循特定程序來揭弊才受保護，保護的內容包含禁止不利的措施原則，還有工作保障、身分保密、人身安全、責任減免等等，以下就重點來做說明：第一點就是基於保護從優的精神，明定其他法律規定有更利於揭弊者保護的，從其規定；第二就是聚焦在內部人員保護，明確地區分揭弊跟檢舉的概念，揭弊者、拒絕參與弊案實施之人，還有配合調查及擔任證人之內部人員，都納入工作權的保障範圍；第三，考量國家資源有限，弊端聚焦在刑事的貪漬不法；第四，為了兼顧機關的內部治理，內部的主管、首長及指定人員、檢察機關、司法警察機關、監察院及政風機構，都是受理揭弊的機關；第五，工作權保障主要是禁止不利的措施，具體措施包含回復職務與工作條件，還有工資補發、損害賠償及待業補償金；第六，程序性的保障措施，程序性保障措施主要有兩點，第一點就是舉證責任倒置，還有揭弊者抗辯優先調查；第七點，揭弊者在揭弊的時候，內容涉及應保密的事項不負洩密的責任；第八，具公務員身分的揭弊者，因揭弊內容之貪污行為受免刑之宣告時，得申請再任公職；第九，人身保護的部分就依證人保護法的規定；第十，施以報復性行為之人，依其身分應予懲處、懲戒或是裁處罰款，如果另外涉及刑事責任的話，就加重刑責；第十一就是揭弊獎金的部分，我們是尊重各目的事業主管機關，另外，公務員具有告發的義務，我們不宜再給予獎金。","今天有關於草案部分，有廖偉翔等6位及台灣民眾黨黨團所提出的草案，與法務部陳報行政院的版本略有差異，這部分的話，就容於逐條審查的時候再一併表示意見。以上報告，敬請各位指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。其餘機關報告，請參閱書面。","機關代表報告完畢，相關書面報告內容列入公報紀錄。"],["法務部書面資料：","一、","併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(四)委員羅智強等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","書面報告","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就併案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」等案，代表本部列席報告，並備質詢。爰分述如下，敬請指教。","壹、前言","為完善我國打詐政策及執法規範，本部擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》草案、《科技偵查及保障法》草案、《通訊保障及監察法》部分條文修正草案及《洗錢防制法》修正草案陳報行政院審查，經行政院於113年5月9日院會討論通過，並於同日以院臺打詐字第1135009570號函請大院審議。有關刑事責任部分，《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》草案第43條以下已分別針對高額詐欺、複合式詐欺與在境外對境內之人犯詐欺罪提高刑度，同時增訂自首或自白減輕責任之規定、提高假釋門檻及不得假釋之要件。為徹底剝奪犯罪所得，杜絕犯罪誘因，亦增訂擴大利得沒收及義務沒收規定。此外，該草案並同時並整合金融、電信、數位經濟等面向之防詐措施，乃一全面性防制詐欺犯罪之專法。另《科技偵查及保障法》與《通訊保障及監察法》賦予執法機關透過正當程序，運用科技偵查工具加強執法，達成我國強力痛擊詐騙的目標，《洗錢防制法》的修正則是將新興洗錢犯罪手法入刑化，以符合國際規範要求，強化偵查辦案時的法源依據，期能在第一時點破獲，並瓦解詐欺犯罪集團。","感謝各位委員長期關心打擊詐欺犯罪，本部由衷表示敬佩之意，對於委員提案修法之目的均表贊同，委員所提內容涉及提高詐欺相關罪責刑度之修正草案，均已在《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》草案中明定。以下謹就委員所提法案之條文構成要件、刑度與刑法總則之關聯表示意見。","貳、本部對各法案之意見","一、有關委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","將犯有普通詐欺罪且對象逾2人之要件列入加重詐欺罪之定義當中，並於刑度及罰金皆予加重，且新增首謀者加重刑期之內容，藉以積極保障民眾之財產。","(二)本部意見","1.草案未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","2.草案罰金刑修正為「800萬元以下」，目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","3.首謀者是否處予較重之刑，本質上屬於量刑事由。現行刑法有關首謀犯罪之處罰，係直接規定一定刑度（例如：刑法第100條及第101條內亂罪、第149條及第150條妨害秩序罪等），草案將首謀加重規定於第1項第2款，未設獨立刑度，是否與體例相符，仍請再酌。","4.草案第1項第5款規定對2人以上犯詐欺罪之加重規定，要屬刑法總則關於想像競合或數罪併罰之加重處罰性質。若僅對詐欺犯罪設有此一加重規定，相對於其他犯罪類型而言卻無此規定，是否符合平等原則，亦請再酌。又現行刑法體例中，均以行為態樣做為加重事由，並無以被害人之人數做為加重處罰事由，容請審酌。","二、有關委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","提高現行普通詐欺罪及加重詐欺罪刑責，藉以更全面性的評價行為人之罪質與行為實害性，並使參與組織犯罪行為但情節較輕而不受《組織犯罪防制條例》所罰者，得加以規範之，使我國民眾之財產法益受完整保護，免於不法之徒覬覦和侵害。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑併科罰金，其中自由刑刑度部分，與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案第339條第1項為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特將該罪刑度上限提高為7年以下有期徒刑，其他財產犯罪類型則仍維持5年以下自由刑之刑度，是否符合各罪間之衡平與罪責相當原則，建請斟酌。罰金刑部分，草案從「得併科50萬元以下」提高為（應）「併科100萬元以下」，此數額與現行刑罰與罰金級距配置體例不符（草案所定7年以下有期徒刑，罰金級距為70萬元以下罰金），且考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所採應併科罰金刑是否反而限縮可執行沒收犯罪所得之數額，亦請再酌。","2.草案第339條之4第1項加重詐欺罪，自由刑提高為「1年以上10年以下」，惟現行刑罰自由刑無此級距。另罰金刑提高為「300萬元以下」，目前刑法自由刑有關「1年以上7年以下」或更高級距之「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距分別為「100萬元以下」及「200萬元以下」，同樣考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，均請再酌。","3.首謀者是否處予較重之刑，本質上屬於量刑事由。現行刑法有關首謀犯罪之處罰，係直接規定一定刑度（例如：刑法第100條及第101條內亂罪、第149條及第150條妨害秩序罪等），草案第339條之4將首謀加重規定於第1項第2款，未設獨立刑度，是否與體例相符，仍請再酌。","三、有關委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","加重現行詐欺罪之刑責，並新增加重事由不法樣態，以全面評價行為人之罪質及行為之實害性。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑併科罰金，該自由刑刑度與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案第339條第1項為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特修正該罪刑度下限為6月以上有期徒刑，其他財產犯罪類型則仍維持原本刑度，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為6月有期徒刑，是否符合各財產犯罪間之衡平與罪責相當性，建請斟酌。","2.目前刑法有關「6月以上5年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「50萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案第339條第1項所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","3.草案第339條之4第1項未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下有期徒刑」，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","4.目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案第339條之4第1項所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","四、有關委員羅智強等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","修正本條最低刑期至6個月，並刪除僅科處罰金而不處有期徒刑或拘役的裁量選項，避免詐騙集團利用得輕刑來誘導犯罪。","(二)本部意見","現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑併科罰金，該自由刑刑度與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案第339條第1項為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特修正該罪刑度下限為6月以上有期徒刑，其他財產犯罪類型則仍維持原本刑度，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為6月有期徒刑，是否符合各財產犯罪間之衡平與罪責相當性，建請斟酌。","五、有關委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","詐欺罪刑度在國際比較上，韓國刑法第347條以10年以下有期徒刑，併科罰金2,000萬韓圜；日本刑法第246條以10年以下有期徒刑；德國刑法第263條第3項以犯罪情節嚴重者，得處6個月以上10年以下有期徒刑。由此可知本國刑法第339條之4僅加重1年以上，7年以下之有期徒刑，不符比例原則，若構成加重詐欺罪，理應刑罰應當較一般詐欺罪更為嚴厲。因此，爰修正第339條之4，有期徒刑刑期之部分，明定以3年以上10年以下之有期徒刑。","(二)本部意見","1.草案未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下有期徒刑」，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","2.草案罰金刑修正為「300萬元以下」，目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","六、有關委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","現行刑法第339條之4對於以詐術使人將本人或第三人之物交付者之處罰仍嫌偏低，致嚇阻效果不足，宜有加重刑責必要。","(二)本部意見","1.草案未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下有期徒刑」，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","2.草案罰金刑修正為「300萬元以下」，目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","七、有關委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","刑法第339條之4僅加重1年以上，7年以下之有期徒刑，不符比例原則，因此將加重詐欺罪之刑期，修正為3年以上10年以下之有期徒刑。並增訂第1項第5款「犯罪所得達100萬元以上」之加重詐欺罪事由。","(二)本部意見","1.草案未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","2.草案罰金刑修正為「500萬元以下」，目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","3.草案新增加重事由「犯罪所得達100萬元以上」，惟草案所指「犯罪所得」係指被告個人之犯罪所得（例如：詐團車手日薪或每筆詐騙金額之抽成比例）或係指與被告相關之全部集團犯罪所得？草案所指「犯罪所得」與被害民眾遭「詐騙金額」間之關聯，均有未明。草案新增犯罪所得達100萬元以上作為加重處罰詐欺犯罪之事由，惟100萬元之認定方式似有前述爭議，是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請斟酌。","八、有關委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","為完整評價詐騙犯罪之惡性及行為之實害性，強化規範密度，周延保護人民之人身、自由及財產等法益，明定提高加重詐欺罪之刑度，亦增列犯罪所得達100萬元以上為加重詐欺罪之法定情形。","(二)本部意見","1.草案未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上7年以下」有期徒刑，惟現行刑法並無「3年以上7年以下」之刑罰級距，且對案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","2.草案罰金刑修正為「500萬元以下」，目前刑法罰金級距配置為「500萬元以下」選科或併科罰金之罪，刑度應為「無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑」。考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","3.草案新增加重事由「犯罪所得達100萬元以上」，惟草案所指「犯罪所得」係指被告個人之犯罪所得（例如：詐團車手日薪或每筆詐騙金額之抽成比例）或係指與被告相關之全部集團犯罪所得？草案所指「犯罪所得」與被害民眾遭「詐騙金額」間之關聯，均有未明。草案新增犯罪所得達100萬元以上作為加重處罰詐欺犯罪之事由，惟100萬元之認定方式似有前述爭議，是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請斟酌。","九、有關委員徐欣瑩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","邇來爆發銀行行員、電信業者人員勾結詐騙集團，惡性重大，又因此二類人員職業外觀易使受詐民眾防不勝防，應修法提高刑責，以收嚇阻之效。","(二)本部意見","草案第1項第5款新增針對金融機構及電信事業之負責人或從業人員，利用業務上機會犯刑法詐欺罪之情形，應構成加重詐欺罪。在情節重大之特殊個案中，金融機構及電信事業之負責人或從業人員，利用業務上機會犯刑法詐欺罪時，可能同時構成特別背信、證券詐欺或違反洗錢防制法等罪，該等罪名之法定刑是否仍不足評價其不法性，一併建請斟酌。","十、有關委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","我國詐騙問題益趨嚴重。此問題已造成我國嚴重社會安全危害，不僅造成被害人財產損失及身心嚴重傷害，查得越嚴、騙得還越多，也顯見現行條文刑罰難起嚇阻之效，故修正將有期徒刑之部分，定為3年以上10年以下有期徒刑。","(二)本部意見","1.草案未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為3年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","2.草案罰金刑修正為「300萬元以下」，目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","十一、有關委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","鑒於近期詐欺犯罪朝向集團化、網路化發展，現行法規不足以完整評價行為人之罪質及行為之實害性，故修正提高詐欺罪刑度，並刪除併科罰金規定，另鑒於近年來金融商品推陳出新，許多不肖人士透過社群、影音平臺乃至以個人名義教導他人投資致富，常致被害人因一時疏忽即蒙受鉅額財產損失，事後也求償無門，部分被害人甚至因無法承受個人心理及社會壓力而有輕生念頭，滋生眾多社會問題，故修法將投資詐騙列為詐欺加重事由。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑併科罰金，該自由刑刑度與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特提高第339條第1項罪刑度為1年以上7年以下有期徒刑，其他財產犯罪類型則仍維持原本刑度，第339條之3刑度則提高為10年以下有期徒刑，第339條之4刑度亦提高為3年以上10年以下有期徒刑。對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，是否符合各財產犯罪間之衡平與罪責相當性，建請斟酌。","2.草案第339條之4第1項新增第5款「以投資為名義向他人保證能獲得收益或利潤之方法犯之。」規定，與銀行法第29條、第29條之1收受存款定義相似，構成要件已有部分重疊之處。依銀行法第125條第1項刑責規定尚可併科罰金，較草案第339條之4第1項刑度更重。草案第339條之4第1項第5款是否仍有新增之必要，建請斟酌。","十二、有關委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","不肖人士因車手詐騙可獲輕判並易科罰金，導致許多不肖人士來進行車手詐騙，爰增訂本條最低刑期為有期徒刑六個月，並刪除僅科處罰金而不處有期徒刑之量刑選項。","(二)本部意見","現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科罰金，該自由刑刑度與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案第339條第1項為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特修正該罪刑度下限為6月以上有期徒刑，其他財產犯罪類型則仍維持原本刑度，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為6月有期徒刑，是否符合各財產犯罪間之衡平與罪責相當性，建請斟酌。","十三、有關委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","近來爆發銀行行員、電信業者人員勾結詐騙集團，惡性重大，又因此二類人員職業外觀易使受詐民眾防不慎防，應修法加重刑責，以收嚇阻之效。","(二)本部意見","草案第1項第5款新增針對金融、電信、網際網路事業之負責人或從業人員，利用業務上機會或方法犯刑法詐欺罪之情形，應構成加重詐欺罪。在情節重大之特殊個案中，金融機構及電信事業之負責人或從業人員，利用業務上機會犯刑法詐欺罪時，可能同時構成特別背信、證券詐欺或違反洗錢防制法等罪，該等罪名之法定刑是否仍不足評價其不法性，建請斟酌。","十四、有關委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","為重拾民眾對於司法之信任，刪除第339條得僅處以罰金之規定，並將得併科罰金改為應併科罰金和提高罰金數額，自50萬元以下修正為100萬元以下，並提高本條最低刑期至6個月，另為有效嚇阻詐騙犯罪，並杜絕新型態網路詐騙猖獗，將第339條之4刑期加重至3年以上10年以下有期徒刑，得併科罰金之數額自100萬元以下提高至500萬元以下罰金。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科罰金，該自由刑刑度與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案第339條第1項為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特修正該罪刑度下限為6月以上有期徒刑，其他財產犯罪類型則仍維持原本刑度，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為6月有期徒刑，是否符合各財產犯罪間之衡平與罪責相當性，建請斟酌。","2.草案第339條之4未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度為「3年以上10年以下有期徒刑」，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，最低刑度仍為三年有期徒刑，此是否符合罪刑相當原則，建請再酌。","3.草案第339條之4罰金刑修正為「500萬元以下」，目前刑法有關「3年以上10年以下」有期徒刑，選科或併科罰金之級距應為「200萬元以下」，考量目前刑法已完善沒收犯罪所得之法制，草案所列罰金刑是否符合衡平性，亦請再酌。","十五、有關委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","為嚇阻犯罪行為發生，保護被害人之財產法益，爰修正刑法第339條，提高刑期至5年以上或12年以下有期徒刑，並將得併科罰金修正為併科罰金，提高罰金自50萬元以下至100萬元以下。並提高刑法第339條之4第1項刑期至無期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑，並提高罰金自100萬元以下至300萬元。而針對詐欺金額巨大或情節嚴重者，參照108年行政院比照普通殺人罪之提案，提高刑責至無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第339條第1項詐欺罪之法定刑度為5年以下有期徒刑、拘役、或科或併科罰金，該自由刑刑度與其他財產犯罪如第335條第1項侵占罪、第342條第1項背信罪刑度相同。草案第339條第1項為嚇阻詐欺不法犯行，特修正該罪刑度下限為5年以上有期徒刑，並提高刑度上限為12年以下有期徒刑，草案第339條之4未區分個案情節，一律將加重詐欺罪提高法定刑度，前段為「無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑」，後段為「無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑」，刑度已較第221條第1項之強制性交（3年以上10年以下有期徒刑）、第185條之4第1項之肇事致死或致重傷而逃逸（1年以上7年以下）更重，草案第339條、第339條之4之刑度大幅提高，對於案情輕微，犯罪所得較低之特殊個案，是否符合各刑法罪名間之衡平與罪責相當性，建請慎酌。","2.草案第339條之4第1項後段規定「詐欺金額巨大或情節嚴重者，處無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑」部分，其中有關「犯罪金額巨大或情節嚴重」要屬刑法第57條量刑審酌事項，是否宜作為犯罪構成要件，建請斟酌。又刑法規範涉及罪刑法定，構成要件尤應具體明確，避免使用不確定法律概念，有關「詐欺金額巨大或情節嚴重」於個案上應如何區別、判斷，建請釐清。","十六、有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","鑑於在涉及犯罪組織成員透過組織犯罪進行加重詐欺之犯行時，雖然其所造成之實際危害以及行為之罪質與可非難性，均較加重詐欺罪及組織犯罪為高，惟在我國現行司法實務上，法院卻往往透過想像競合之規定，僅從一重處斷，致使法院最後之科刑根本無法適切反映此種惡性重大之犯罪行為。爰增設第2項及第3項規定，就犯罪組織成員以一行為同時觸犯前項之罪及組織犯罪防制條例第3條第1項後段之參與犯罪組織罪者，排除刑法第55條之適用，本於刑事政策上之考量，另定加重處罰之明文，處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑，得併科3,000萬元以下罰金。就犯罪組織成員以一行為同時觸犯前項之罪及組織犯罪防制條例第3條第1項前段之發起、主持、操縱或指揮犯罪組織罪者，亦基於相同之理由，另定加重處罰之明文，處7年以上有期徒刑，得併科1億元以下罰金。","(二)本部意見","草案增訂第3項、第4項之罪，惟如一行為同時構成數罪名者，應依競合理論處理，是否宜另定獨立罪名，或以加重其刑之立法體例定之，建請斟酌。又依現行刑法罰金級距標準，3年以上10年以下之罪，其罰金級距為200萬元以下罰金，7年以上有期徒刑之罪，其罰金級距為400萬元以下罰金，建請一併斟酌。","參、結語","行政院已於113年5月9日通過《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》草案，該法案乃係一部符合我國國情、彌補現行規範不足，專為打擊詐欺所制定之法律，懇請待該草案一併併案審查，期能於本會期完成修法，以抑制詐欺犯罪危害。本部作為打詐綱領懲詐面向之主責機關，會持續努力精進，落實執法。在法制面謹提供意見如上，敬請各位委員參酌。","以上報告，敬請主席及各位委員指教。","二、","併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」及(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","今天奉邀列席貴委員會就併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、(六)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」及(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案，代表本部列席報告，並備質詢，深感榮幸。茲就各案報告如下：","壹、有關「揭弊者保護法草案」之立法政策說明","本草案為國內首部揭弊保護專法，影響層面大。本部推動立法期間，原先即採「公私分立、公部門先行」之立法策略，其後經廣泛蒐集意見，各界就立法模式、弊端項目範圍、通報程序等多有建言，為求立法審慎，歷經政策調整，改採「公私合併」、「公私合併──上市上櫃版」。依經濟部中小及新創企業署112年10月31日發布「112年中小企業白皮書」，111年臺灣中小企業家數超過163萬家，占全體企業達98.9%以上，數據顯示，中小企業為維繫臺灣經濟發展與社會安定的重要基石，因考量本草案仍有對私企業營運成本及人事管理等內部治理之影響，為尊重企業治理及降低衝擊，於本年113年再度調整立法政策為「公私分流、行政立法雙軌併行」，私部門以行政指導推動，未來再逐步擴大法制化範圍。","貳、有關本部研擬「揭弊者保護法草案」之草案架構及內容","因應立法政策調整，本部近期於113年2月16日研擬公部門版草案，經行政院於同年月23日邀集相關機關召開草案協商會議，本部依決議事項修正條文，並於113年3月4日陳報行政院，續行說明本部最新草案架構內容：","一、立法目的係為建立廉能政府、追究重大貪瀆不法。","二、基於保護從優之精神，明定其他法律之規定更有利揭弊者之保護者，從其規定。","三、聚焦於內部人員之保護，以明確區分「揭弊」與「檢舉」之概念。","四、受理揭弊機關採內部通報併行機制，將內部主管、首長或其指定人員、檢察機關、司法警察機關、監察院及政風機構並列為受理揭弊機關。涉及國家機密之機敏案件，基於國家安全之必要，限縮其受理機關範圍。","五、揭弊者、拒絕參與弊案實施之人、配合調查及擔任證人之內部人員均納入工作權保障範圍。","六、工作權保障主要為「禁止不利措施」，具體措施包含回復職務與工作條件、工資補發、損害賠償及待業補償金等請求權。","七、程序性保障則包括：(一)「舉證責任倒置」：由機關或雇主證明縱無揭弊行為，仍有採取相同不利措施之正當理由；(二)「揭弊者抗辯優先調查」：揭弊者於行政救濟程序或訴訟程序中提出揭弊者抗辯時，應優先調查並為認定。","八、揭弊者向受理揭弊機關揭弊時，其陳述內容涉及應保密事項時，不負洩密之責，向律師徵詢法律意見，亦受保護。另揭弊者為揭弊案件之正犯或共犯時，於符合證人保護法要件時，得依該法減輕或免除其刑。","九、具公務員身分之揭弊者，因揭弊內容之貪污行為而受免刑之宣告者，得申請再任公職，至機關受理後仍得個案審酌准否任用。","十、人身保護部分，依證人保護法規定。","十一、施以報復性行為之人，依其身分予以懲戒、懲處或裁處罰鍰，如涉及刑事責任，更有加重刑責之規範。","十二、揭弊獎金尊重各目的事業主管機關。另公務員依法具有告發義務，不宜再給予獎金。","參、有關大院委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」，本部說明如下：","一、　大院委員及黨團提案共計7版本，均採行公私合併版，就我國經濟體制影響等因素，建請審酌。","二、有關本草案與其他法規吹哨條款競合處理之規定：","委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第1條、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第1條、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第1條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第1條、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第1條、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第1條及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第1條，就揭弊者之程序及保護均採適用最有利揭弊者之規定。","本部意見：","就揭弊者之保護及程序肯認適用最有利揭弊者之規定，惟私部門公益保護事項涉立法政策抉擇，建請慎酌。","三、有關建置專責機關部分：","委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第13條提案重點設置揭弊者保護官及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第2條提案重點為組成揭弊者保護委員會，辦理與推動揭弊者保護事項，落實揭弊保護及統一事權之意旨。","本部意見：","考量不同主管機關之各領域專業性繁雜不一，各領域專業知能甚難齊備，委員會之裁處措施及保護官之代位訴訟均涉及高度公權力，其處置或裁處恐有爭議，建請慎酌。","四、有關弊端範圍部分：","(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第2條、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第3條提案之弊案範圍均涵蓋公、私部門之弊端項目。","本部意見：","私部門弊端範圍，因涉及各單行法規，專業領域繁雜，罰則輕重不一，然揭弊制度遭濫用，反增加私部門管理成本，影響勞資雙方信任度。考量國家資源有限，現有檢舉（陳情）已有相配套之保護措施，無須動用國家公權力而為高密度之揭弊保護措施，建請慎酌。","(二)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第2條、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第3條提案重點為弊端項目均採列舉及概括授權立法方式。","本部意見：","考量私部門未必涉及公共利益，是否以法律全法納入保護範圍，一律將犯罪行為、處以罰鍰行為或應付懲戒行為均納入，其適用具體範圍及違法輕重均未臻明確，建請慎酌。","五、有關受理揭弊機關部分：","(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第4條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第4條、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第4條提案重點均針對軍情人員另訂揭弊程序。","本部意見：","考量軍情人員仍有可能知悉一般之貪瀆或刑事不法案件，不論其揭弊內容是否涉及機敏性，僅以其身分一律限縮受理揭弊機關，建請慎酌。","(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第2條提案重點未將監察院列入受理揭弊機關。","本部意見：","監察法及監察法施行細則暨監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法均規定，人民如發覺公務人員有違法失職之行為，可逕向監察院或監察委員舉發，故排除監察院為受理揭弊機關，是否妥適，建請慎酌。","六、有關揭弊者定義：","(一)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第8條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第16條及委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第16條提案重點為揭弊者出於獲利或損害他人之不當目的者，不受保護。","本部意見：","考量揭弊者出於獲利或之不當目的之關聯性，舉證困難，為求立法明確性，建請審酌。","(二)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第7條提案重點為委任律師代理提出檢舉。","本部意見：","考量揭弊者之真實身分如有不明，於實務執行上尚存疑慮，且對於律師本身是否亦須一併納入保護，恐有爭議，建請慎酌。","七、有關外部通報規定：","(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第6條、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第6條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第5條、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第6條、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第5條及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第6條提案重點為受理揭弊機關應於一定期間內為是否受理之通知，經促請辦理後於一定期間內未獲回應，或逾調查期間未為調查結果之通知，揭弊者得向民意機關、媒體或民間公益團體等進行外部通報。","本部意見：","考量向外部監督機關提出揭弊，如為揭弊錯誤或揭弊失準，對被揭弊者將造成損害，亦不利發現真實，建請慎酌。","(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第4條、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第6條及吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第6條提案重點為揭弊者得逕向受理揭弊機關以外之政府機關、媒體、法人或民間公益團體為揭弊，經轉由受理揭弊機關辦理者，受揭弊保護。","本部意見：","考量受理揭弊機關涵蓋政府機關、內部主管及其指定單位、司法調查機關、監察院等，弊案可受妥適處理，由內部先檢視弊案，不僅較具時效，亦能有效防止損害擴大，建請慎酌。","八、有關合意終止勞務契約待業補償金數額之規定：","委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第10條提案重點合意終止勞務契約得請求10個月以上之補償金、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第9條及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第9條提案重點均為合意終止勞務契約得請求12個月以上之補償金、片面終止勞務契約得請求6個月以上之補償金。","本部意見：","倘認為避免揭弊者因揭弊而處於經濟弱勢致影響生活，而有強化勞雇雙方合意終止之待業補償金條件之必要，尊重大院之決定。","九、有關工作權保障之規定：","(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第7條提案重點為揭弊者因受不利措施，依法提起救濟或訴訟者，得請求給付其所合理支出之費用及律師酬金。","本部意見：","考量訴訟費用未必包含律師酬金，又律師酬金標準不一，倘明定揭弊者請求律師酬金，使用者無庸負擔費用，恐衍生濫訴情形，建請慎酌。","(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第2條及委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第15條提案重點就揭弊者之工作權保障或身分保密擴及配偶、直系血親或與其有密切關係之人。","本部意見：","宜聚焦內部人員之保護，考量揭弊者之親屬或其密切關係之人未必為弊案機關之內部人員，其等所受不利措施與弊案之關聯性舉證困難，建請慎酌。","(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第16條提案重點引進法庭之友，法院審理期間，必要時得徵詢兩造同意後，由律師公會、公益團體、同業公會、工會、主管機關或檢察署，就法律與事實爭點提出書狀，供法院認事用法之參考。","本部意見：","考量程序進行須經兩造同意，且法庭之友意見不拘束法院心證，實益性較低，佐以現行智慧財產及商業法院雖無法源依據，亦得運行，建請審酌。","十、有關報復行為罰則之規定：","台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第11條提案重點為非公務員違反不當措施規定者，移送揭弊者保護委員會得裁處20萬元以上2億元以下罰鍰。","本部意見：","針對施以報復行為人之處罰移由揭弊者保護委員會裁處，並提高罰鍰為20萬元至2億元，罰鍰金額裁量空間達1000倍，就揭弊保護委員會組成性質行使裁處權限之妥適性、裁量空間是否過寬等，建請再酌。","十一、有關共犯責任減免之規定：","委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第15條提案重點為就揭弊者涉及所揭弊案件之刑事及行政責任均得予減免。","本部意見：","考量行政責任涉及公務人員懲處、懲戒範疇，如對其不得調整職務或處分，恐不符社會觀感，亦有影響機關正常人事管理權限行使之虞，建請再酌。","十二、有關人身安全保護之規定：","委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第12條提案重點為核發揭弊者保護書，並採行法院保留之令狀主義。","本部意見：","為求立法經濟，依證人保護法施以人身安全保護，對揭弊者之人身安全保護更為完備，建請再酌。","十三、有關身分保密之規定：","(一)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第12條提案重點為揭弊者因身分洩漏而受有損害者，受理揭弊機關應負損害賠償責任。","本部意見：","考量主管機關之監督指導責任，統由主管機關概括負損害賠償責任，且損害範圍及於私企業機構，過度擴張國家賠償責任，而私企業人員免負損害賠償責任，恐有反向鼓勵私企業人員洩漏揭弊者身分之疑慮，建請再酌。","(二)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第15條提案重點為公務員違反保密義務者處1年以上7年以下有期徒刑，過失者處2年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科新臺幣50萬元以下罰金；非公務員違反保密義務者，處3年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科新臺幣100萬元以下罰金、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第15條提案重點為公務員違反保密義務者處1年以上7年以下有期徒刑，過失者處3年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科新臺幣50萬元以下罰金；非公務員違反保密義務者，處5年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科新臺幣100萬元以下罰金、委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第14條提案重點為公務員違反保密義務者處6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑，得併科30萬元以下罰金，過失者處1年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科10萬元以下罰金；非公務員違反保密義務者，處1年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科10萬元以下罰金。","本部意見：","違反保密義務之刑事責任，因涉及個案情事判斷，宜由法院依刑法之洩密罪構成要件認定，建請再酌。","十四、有關揭弊獎金之規定：","委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第17條提案重點為公務員因揭弊致不法案件受查獲，應享有相關之行政獎勵；楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第16條提案重點為因揭弊而查獲不法事實者，應給予獎金、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」第17條提案重點為揭弊獎金數額不得低於罰鍰（金）、沒收財物或財產上利益、追徵價額、財產抵償之總額10。","本部意見：","考量獎金係對於案件查獲貢獻之獎勵，與保障揭弊者原有權益，兩者不同。另公務員對其職務行為，依法具有告發義務，不宜再給予獎金，建請再酌。","肆、結語","有關委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」及委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」部分，感謝提案委員重視揭弊保護之需求與期待，提出草案條文，立意良善與見解之精闢令人敬佩，本部對於各委員及黨團提案之條文內容與本部研擬草案仍有差異，容於逐條審查時一併表示意見。","以上報告，敬請主席及各位委員指教"],["司法院書面資料：","一、併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。二、併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。","主席、各位委員、各位先進：","今天貴院司法及法制委員會會議一、併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。二、併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案，本院奉邀前來列席，深感榮幸，謹彙整各修正草案版本之修法重點，說明本院意見如下，敬請指教：","壹、中華民國刑法第339條、第339條之3及第339條之4等修正草案部分：","一、關於提高各罪之法定刑：","刑法第339條普通詐欺罪、第339條之3電腦詐欺罪及第339條之4加重詐欺罪，是否酌予提高其處罰刑度，於不違反罪責相當原則下，本院尊重主責機關及貴院之職權。並請斟酌：","(一)刑法分則關於有期徒刑有一定的刑度體例，例如：「7年以下」、「1年以上7年以下」、「3年以上10年以下」等。草案擬將刑度修正為「1年以上10年以下」、「3年以上7年以下」、「10年以下」者，體例上較為少見。","(二)審判效能及司法人力負擔之影響：","1.草案擬將刑法第339條之4第1項所處有期徒刑「1年以上7年以下」，提高為「3年以上10年以下」者，事涉刑事政策決定，本院固予以尊重；惟此將使數量龐大之詐欺案件，不能依刑事訴訟法第273條之1第1項進行「簡式審判程序」（程序較為簡速）；並使數量龐大之詐欺案件，全部成為「強制辯護案件」，如未經選任辯護人者，一律均須指定公訴辯護人或律師為被告辯護（刑事訴訟法第31條第1項第1款），勢必對法院造成大量程序之增加及審理期間之全面性延長。在目前法院人力艱困，且詐欺案件數量極為龐大情況下，能否妥適因應所增加之人力負擔，建請於立法時全盤妥為評估。","2.又數量龐大的詐欺「車手」等案件，多有未自行選任辯護人者，國家不能追回犯罪所得，反而必須耗費大量寶貴資源為其指定公設辯護人或律師，是否可能造成不良社會觀感，且對於目前已捉襟見肘的公設辯護人及法扶律師人力，將是難以承受的負擔，其所造成之程序延滯，亦勢必耗損法院人力並影響審判效能。此立法政策是否妥當，敬請斟酌。","二、關於增訂刑法第339條之4第1項之犯罪類型：","現行刑法第339條之4第1項規定：「犯第339條詐欺罪而有下列情形之一者，處1年以上7年以下有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣100萬元以下罰金：一、冒用政府機關或公務員名義犯之。二、3人以上共同犯之。三、以廣播電視、電子通訊、網際網路或其他媒體等傳播工具，對公眾散布而犯之。四、以電腦合成或其他科技方法製作關於他人不實影像、聲音或電磁紀錄之方法犯之」。草案擬增訂新的類型條款，包括「所犯對象逾2人」、「犯罪所得達100萬元以上」、「金融機構及電信事業（或金融、電信、網際網路事業）之負責人或從業人員，利用業務上機會（或業務上之機會或方法）犯之」及「以投資為名義向他人保證能獲得收益或利潤之方法犯之」，此涉刑事政策決定，於不違反罪責相當原則及法律明確性原則下，本院尊重主責機關及貴院之職權。並請斟酌：","(一)所謂「所犯對象逾2人」，係指一行為同時對逾2人犯罪？或指數行為先後對逾2人犯罪？後者情形，一般實務認應數罪併罰（例如詐騙被害人3人，即論以3罪），則適用草案規定，是否改為合併論以一罪？建請釐清。","(二)所謂「犯罪所得達100萬元以上」，是否僅限於詐騙「現金」？或包括「現金以外之財物」？又關於財物或財產上利益之價額，認定顯有困難時，應如何處理？建請釐清。","(三)所謂「金融機構（事業）」、「電信事業」、「網際網路事業」之定義為何？是否等同於金融機構合併法、電信法之相關定義？建請釐清。","(四)所謂「以投資為名義向他人保證能獲得收益或利潤之方法犯之」，此詐騙方法是否當然具有特別危害性？有無掛一漏萬之虞？建請再酌。","三、關於增訂加重處罰規定：","是否應特別針對3人以上之「首謀者」、「詐欺金額巨大或情節嚴重者」及「犯罪組織成員」，增訂加重處罰規定，涉及刑事政策決定，於不違反罪責相當原則及刑法體例下，本院尊重主責機關及貴院之職權。並請斟酌：","(一)依刑法第66條、第67條規定，有期徒刑減輕者，減輕其刑「至」二分之一，但同時有免除其刑之規定者，其減輕得減「至」三分之二。有期徒刑減輕者，其最高度及最低度同減之。又所稱二分之一或三分之二，乃指減輕之最大幅度而言，亦即減輕至多僅能減其刑二分之一，如同時有免除其刑之規定者，則以減至三分之二為限，至究應減輕若干，委諸事實審法院依具體個案斟酌決定之，並非必須減至減輕後之最低度刑，如減輕之刑度係在法定範圍內，即非違法（最高法院111年度台上字第5020號判決意旨參照）。本於相同法理，所謂「加重其刑『至』二分之一」，亦指加重之最大幅度，並就法定本刑加重而言，裁判時可在此幅度內自由酌量，並非必須加重二分之一，如加重之刑度是在此範圍內，即非違法（最高法院105年度台上字第694號判決意旨參照）。準此，現行刑法第339條之4法定刑為「1年以上7年以下有期徒刑」，草案就「首謀者」所定的法律效果為「加重其刑至二分之一」，乃指由法院審酌具體個案情形，在1年1月（原下限1年＋1個月）以上、10年6月（原上限7年×1.5）以下之範圍內，量處妥適之刑，特予說明。","(二)草案以「詐欺金額巨大」或「情節嚴重」等不確定法律概念，作為加重處罰之構成要件者，建議明定其具體標準，以符合法律明確性原則。","(三)行為人以一行為同時觸犯刑法第339條之4及組織犯罪防制條例之罪者，依現行法制，為想像競合犯，依刑法第55條規定，從一重處斷。草案將其合併定為加重處罰之構成要件者，現行體例上似較少見。","貳、揭弊者保護法及公益揭弊者保護法草案部分：","一、廖偉翔委員等18人所提草案、吳宗憲委員等19人所提草案及林月琴委員等17人所提草案第3條所稱弊案，包含第5款：「法官法第三十條第二項第七款或第八十九條第四項第七款之應付評鑑行為。」（即違反法官或檢察官倫理規範，情節重大之行為）；台灣民眾黨黨團所提草案第3條第1項第10款亦包含上開應付評鑑行為。然法官倫理規範及檢察官倫理規範所規定之義務態樣廣泛，且多為不確定法律概念，例如保持高尚品格、謹言慎行、避免損及司法形象、充實執行職務所需之智識及能力……等，與上開草案其餘款次所規定刑罰或行政罰之違法行為相較，尚不相當，不適於稱之為弊案，建請予以限縮、具體化，並特定於重大之違反風紀情形。","又上開草案將「違反法官倫理規範，情節重大」（法官法第30條第2項第7款）納入公部門揭弊範圍，原則上即有該法相關內容（揭弊程序及保護等）之適用。惟本院依據法官法第13條第2項授權規定訂定法官倫理規範，其第26條明定：「法官執行職務時，知悉其他法官、檢察官或律師確有違反其倫理規範之行為時，應通知該法官、檢察官所屬職務監督權人或律師公會。」，此為法官舉發揭弊之特別規定，亦為法官不同於一般公務員揭弊之行為規範。上開規定與「揭弊者保護法」之適用關係為何？有待釐清。又法官倫理規範屬法官職務內、外之行為規範，用以維護法官獨立、公正、中立、廉潔、正直之形象，就其規範內容之違反，性質上是否即屬草案第3條所稱之「弊案」？尚難一概而論，建請明定具體違失行為，以杜爭議。","二、有關民眾黨黨團提案之草案第3條第1項第10款，將法官應付個案評鑑之各種事由（法官法第30條第2項）均納入公益揭弊者保護法草案所稱之弊案中，其範圍又較上開委員廖偉翔等18人、委員林月琴等17人提案、委員吳宗憲等19人提案之草案內容更為廣泛；且該等應付個案評鑑之事由性質上與草案第3條所稱之「弊案」無涉，是否增訂本款規定，建請再酌。","三、洪孟楷委員等22人所提草案及徐巧芯委員等19人所提草案第8條及第9條條文內容所指關於損害賠償請求權之依據是否誤載為第6條，而應為第7條？另前開草案第6條第1項所稱「第六條第一項所列公務員或從事工作獲致報酬之內部人員」是否應為第3條之揭弊者？建請釐清。","四、關於公部門對具公務員身分之內部人員採行不利措施，廖偉翔委員等18人所提草案第9條第2項規定：「具公務員身分之內部人員因受第七條第二項第一款至第四款不利人事措施所生同條第三項第三款及第四款之賠償請求權，自……行政救濟為有理由之決定確定之日起，……。」第9條立法理由也敘明：「若揭弊者未能於行政救濟程序獲有回復原狀或撤銷不利措施之結果，亦不得依本法另行請求損害賠償。」依此，具公務員身分之內部人員受到同法第7條第2項規定之不利措施時，似應先提起行政救濟，始得主張同法第7條第3項第3款、第4款之賠償請求權，然自第9條文義似無從得出如此之規範意旨（林月琴委員等17人所提草案第16條第2項亦有相同疑義）。又何以民事之損害賠償請求權以提起行政救濟獲得有利決定或判決為前提，而無法逕向民事法院起訴主張？如內部人員於行政救濟程序中未主張是因揭弊而受不利措施，該不利措施是因其他違法情形而遭撤銷或回復原狀時，該內部人員可否主張損害賠償請求權？建請釐清。","五、廖偉翔委員等18人所提草案第9條第3項、洪孟楷委員等22人所提草案第8條第3項、徐巧芯委員等19人所提草案第8條第3項及林月琴委員等17人所提草案第16條第3項所規定受理移送公務員懲戒者為「公務員懲戒委員會」及「職務法庭」，然公務員懲戒委員會目前已改制為懲戒法院，懲戒法院下設有懲戒法庭以審理公務員懲戒案件，另設有職務法庭審理法官及檢察官之懲戒案件。從而，上開條文是否更正為懲戒法院，建請參酌。","六、吳宗憲委員等19人所提草案、洪孟楷委員等22人所提草案及徐巧芯委員等19人所提草案第8條第3項、廖偉翔委員等18人所提草案第9條第3項及林月琴委員等17人所提草案第16條第3項所規定情形，若懲戒法院審理後，係作成免議或不受理判決（公務員懲戒法第56條及第57條規定參照）確定，是否亦得請求草案第7條第1項第3款及第4款之賠償？建請釐清。","七、洪孟楷委員等22人所提草案及徐巧芯委員等19人所提草案第8條第2項關於「具公務員身分之內部人員」因受不利益措施所生之請求權，僅就第7條第1項第3款及第4款之賠償請求權設有時效規定，則同條項第1款及第2款規定之請求權時效為何（吳宗憲委員等19人所提草案第8條第1項、廖偉翔委員等18人所提草案第9條第2項、林月琴委員等17人所提草案第16條第3項及台灣民眾黨黨團所提草案第10條第3項，均有相同疑義）？具公務員身分及未具公務員身分之內部人員之請求權時效有無區別必要？又關於停職不利措施之回復原狀請求權，若亦有時效規定適用，其與各該人事法令中復職期間之相關規定，關係為何？建請釐清。","八、林月琴委員等17人所提草案第16條第5項乃引進法庭之友制度（立法說明參照），該項係就認定事實及適用法律提出書狀供參考，然認定事實及適用法律本屬法院之專業職能，行使上應無困難之處，是否有引進法庭之友的必要？若確有必要，關於法庭之友之選定及陳述意見等詳細規範，建請參考憲法訴訟法第20條規定，為詳盡之規範。","最後，本院再次對貴院關注遏阻詐騙歪風及保護揭弊者等重要議題，費心修法，表達感佩之意。以上報告，敬請各位委員、先進指教，謝謝各位。"],["銓敘部書面資料：","併案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」等7案書面報告","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","關於本次審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」等7案，謹就涉及本部業管部分，提出說明如下：","一、有關委員楊瓊瓔等21人提案版本第2條第2款規定「內部違法情事」範圍，包括「違反公務員服務法而情節重大」部分，基於行政院前研擬揭弊者保護法草案時，曾將「職務上行為違反公務員服務法而情節重大」納為揭弊範圍，當時本部考量「情節重大」屬不確定法律概念，實務執行上恐易生爭議，又同條第1款及第2款業將故意犯刑法瀆職罪章及犯貪污治罪條例之罪納入揭弊範圍，應足以涵蓋違反公務員服務法而情節重大之情形，爰建議行政院予以刪除，嗣行政院參採本部意見，於108年5月3日院臺法字第1080174802函送大院審議之版本已無相關規定，是建請審酌是否刪除「違反公務員服務法而情節重大」。","二、有關委員廖偉翔等18人提案版本第7條第2項、委員林月琴等17人提案版本第15條第2項、委員洪孟楷等22人提案版本第6條第2項、台灣民眾黨黨團提案版本第7條第2項、委員徐巧芯等19人提案版本第6條第2項及委員吳宗憲等19人提案版本第7條第2項部分：","(一)按公務人員請領退休金權利，係其一身專屬權利，不得讓與、扣押或供擔保，爰公務人員退休資遣撫卹法（以下簡稱退撫法）第69條及公務人員個人專戶制退休資遣撫卹法（以下簡稱個人專戶制退撫法）第52條均明定，公務人員請領退撫給與之權利，不得作為讓與、抵銷、扣押或供擔保之標的。據此，公務人員退休金若無法律依據，均不得剝奪或減少，且依法剝奪或減少退休金亦均須以審定機關所為之行政處分為據，合先敘明。","(二)查退撫法第79條及個人專戶制退撫法第56條規定，退休公務人員在職期間涉犯貪污治罪條例、刑法瀆職罪章之罪或假借職務上之權力、機會或方法犯其他罪，先行退休、資遣或離職後始經判刑確定者，且經判處有期徒刑1年以上，依法應照所判刑度剝奪或減少退離（職）相關給與；已支領者，均須追繳。再查公務員懲戒法第9條規定，剝奪、減少退休（職、伍）金為懲戒處分之1種。","(三)依前揭委員提案揭弊者保護法相關草案條文規定略以，政府機關不得因揭發弊案者揭發弊案、配合調查或擔任證人等行為，而意圖報復對該揭發者採行不利之措施，如剝奪或減少其退休金。另依委員廖偉翔等18人提案版本第7條第2項、委員林月琴等17人提案版本第7條第2項之立法說明略以，所稱不利措施，依公務員懲戒法或法官法所為之懲戒判決屬司法判決性質，不在本項規範之範圍內。從而，退休公務人員受剝奪或減少退休金懲戒處分判決確定者，自屬上開所稱應排除適用之範圍。此外，退休公務人員若因在職涉貪瀆案件復經法院判處1年以上有期徒刑確定，而依據退撫法及個人專戶制退撫法規定，依判決確定之結果剝奪或減少退休金者，因屬司法判決性質，爰亦應併同排除適用。","(四)綜前所述，為期本案審查通過版本適用明確並避免爭議，建議於立法說明將「依公務人員退撫法制按刑事判決結果所為之行政處分」亦予排除，不在「所稱不利措施」之規範範圍內。","三、有關委員廖偉翔等18人提案版本第9條第3項、委員林月琴等17人提案版本第16條第3項、委員洪孟楷等22人提案版本第8條第3項及委員徐巧芯等19人提案版本第8條第3項等條文中敘及「公務員懲戒委員會」一詞，現已更名為「懲戒法院」，建請審酌修正。","四、有關委員林月琴等17人提案版本第13條規定行政院、直轄市、縣（市）政府應置揭弊者保護官若干名部分，尚涉及中央行政機關組織基準法第5條第3項規範事項，本部尊重相關主管機關（法務部、行政院人事行政總處）之意見及大院審查結果。","五、有關委員林月琴等17人提案版本第17條及委員吳宗憲等19人提案版本第9條，有關未具公務員身分受不利措施者復職有困難時雇主得給退休補償金之立法說明，均提及「各機關學校聘僱人員離職給與辦法」部分，與上開版本第5條有關「公務員」之定義範圍，本部尊重法制主管機關（法務部）意見及大院審查結果。","六、有關委員廖偉翔等18人提案版本第13條第2項、委員林月琴等17人提案版本第20條第2項、委員洪孟楷等22人提案版本第12條第2項、台灣民眾黨黨團提案版本第13條第2項、委員徐巧芯等19人提案版本第12條第2項及委員吳宗憲等19人提案版本之第12條第2項提案版本規範「機關受理」經法院判決免除其刑確定之揭弊者「申請」再任公職案件時，得不受公務人員任用法第28條第1項第4款之限制部分，依現行人事法規，經依法免職人員，如擬再任公務人員，須依公務人員陞遷法等規定報名參加各機關職缺公開甄選等方式自行覓缺再任，性質上非屬「申請」程序，為避免造成該等人員得向機關「申請」再任公務人員之誤解，建請審酌刪除「機關受理」、「申請」及「案件」文字。","以上報告，敬請指教，謝謝！"],["財政部書面資料：","併案審查大院廖委員偉翔等18人、楊委員瓊瓔等21人、洪委員孟楷等22人、徐委員巧芯等19人分別擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」及林委員月琴等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、吳委員宗憲等19人分別擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」共7案之說明","主席、各位委員先進，大家好：","今日貴委員會併案審查大院廖委員偉翔等18人、楊委員瓊瓔等21人、洪委員孟楷等22人、徐委員巧芯等19人分別擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」及林委員月琴等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、吳委員宗憲等19人分別擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」共7案，謹就該等草案涉本部業務部分說明如下，敬請指教。","經查法務部為「揭弊者保護法草案」（下稱該草案）之主管機關，依法務部目前撰擬該草案最新版本第3條略以，所稱弊案係指故意犯刑法瀆職罪章之罪、貪污治罪條例之罪及包庇他人犯罪之罪等；第5條略以，所稱揭弊者，指公務員、政府機關（構）自行進用之人員……等，有事實合理相信政府機關（構）或其員工、其他公務員涉有弊案，具名向受理揭弊機關揭弊者。上揭法條立法目的係為保障基於維護廉能政府之目的提出揭弊，並有利打擊政府機關內部不法行為，不及於私人紛爭案件。","有關對邊境防檢造成具體損害或違反財政法規涉有危害公共利益且情節重大之行為，涉及本部業務部份，依該草案對於弊案及揭弊者之定義，應可含括，對相關揭弊者權益亦訂有完善保障，本部可配合執行。","以上說明，敬請各位委員指教，謝謝!"],["教育部書面資料：","併案審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案書面報告","立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","教育部書面報告","壹、公益揭弊保護專法化與國際接軌","揭弊者保護為反貪腐之重要機制，亦為國際間衡量國家廉能之重要指標。制定專法鼓勵及保護知悉弊案而勇於出面舉發貪腐行為之人士，使人民免除恐懼勇於揭弊，以達到反貪腐並促進廉能之目標，符合聯合國反貪腐公約之要求及國際先進國家之趨勢。","貳、教育部贊同制定公益揭弊保護措施","教育部（下稱本部）向來重視廉能法治及品格養成教育，本次制定法案內容所涉揭弊範圍及程序、揭弊者權益保護及身分保密等內容，為法治觀念養成之延伸與實踐，使整體法治教育環境更加完善，本部敬表贊同。","參、結語","綜上，本部將遵循本法規定辦理，以有效確保鼓勵及保護揭弊者之目的。茲本項提議尊重該法規之主管機關法務部及大院決議。"],["勞動部書面資料：","審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」、委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」、委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」報告","主席、各位委員女士先生：","今天貴委員會併案審查「揭弊者保護法草案」、「公益揭弊者保護法草案」，本部應邀列席說明，並聆聽各位委員之教益，至感榮幸，敬請委員不吝指教。以下謹就涉及勞動法令部分說明：","一、委員廖偉翔、黃健豪、羅廷瑋等18人提案所提第10條、委員林月琴等17人提案所提第17條、委員洪孟楷、羅廷瑋、牛煦庭等22人提案所提第9條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案所提第9條、委員徐巧芯、洪孟楷等19人提案所提第9條及委員吳宗憲、廖偉翔、陳菁徽、許宇甄、牛煦庭、羅廷瑋等19人提案所提第9條，讓未具公務員身分之內部人員得不經預告終止契約，或勞雇雙方得合意終止勞務契約，內部人員或受僱人可獲資遣費、退休金及補償金之立法方向，本部敬表支持。","二、關於委員林月琴等17人提案所提第17條第3項、委員洪孟楷、羅廷瑋、牛煦庭等22人提案所提第9條第3項及委員徐巧芯、洪孟楷等19人提案所提第9條第3項規範「政府機關（構）、法人或團體、個人違反禁止對揭弊者有不利措施之行為，致有損害內部人員權益之虞者，該內部人員得不經預告終止契約」，另委員吳宗憲、廖偉翔、陳菁徽、許宇甄、牛煦庭、羅廷瑋等19人提案所提第9條第1項規定內部人員對前揭情形得自知悉其情形之日起30日內不經預告終止契約等節，如本條項之體例係參照勞動基準法第14條第1項第6款規定，賦予勞工不經預告終止契約之權利，考量勞動基準法第14條第2項明定勞工行使該款契約終止權之除斥期間為「自知悉情形之日起或知悉損害結果之日起30日內」，建議可朝維持法制一致性之方向研議。","三、查勞動基準法、性別平等工作法及職業安全衛生法已就勞工或工作者申訴事業單位違反勞動法令訂有保護規範，除對違規之雇主予以罰鍰處分外，併有公布事業單位名稱及負責人姓名之處罰，制度運作有年。另法務部已陳報揭弊者保護法草案送行政院審查，本案尊重法務部意見。","以上報告，敬請各位委員指教，並祝主席、各位委員身體健康，萬事如意。謝謝！"],["衛生福利部書面資料：","「揭弊者保護法草案」等案書面報告","主席、各位委員女士、先生：","今天大院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會召開全體委員會議，本部承邀列席報告，深感榮幸。茲就揭弊者保護法草案，提出專案報告。敬請各位委員不吝惠予指教：","壹、對於各委員提案版本，本部意見如下：","一、委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第2條、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、台灣民眾黨立法院黨團擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條、委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」第3條之弊端範圍，涵蓋食品安全衛生管理法、藥事法、醫療法等特定法規及本部重要主管業務，本部敬表尊重。","二、本部為全國衛生醫療與社會福利主管機關，掌理國民健康、食品安全、兒少保護、藥事與醫療秩序相關政策之規劃研擬及執行督導考核，攸關人民健康保健及權益照護；為建立廉能政府及維護公益，於多數主管法規，已訂有內部違法情事之舉發處理程序，以及揭弊者之保護與獎勵機制。","貳、本部主管之重要法規，對於揭弊者之保護規定如下：","一、老人福利法第43條規定，醫事人員、社會工作人員、村（里）長與村（里）幹事、警察人員、司法人員及其他執行老人福利業務之相關人員，於執行職務時知悉老人有疑似第41條第1項或第42條之情況者，應通報當地直轄市、縣（市）主管機關。前項通報人之身分資料應予保密。","二、身心障礙權益保障法第76條規定，醫事人員、社會工作人員、教育人員、警察人員、村（里）幹事及其他執行身心障礙服務業務人員，知悉身心障礙者有前條各款情形之一者，應立即向直轄市、縣（市）主管機關通報，至遲不得超過二十四小時。村（里）長及其他任何人知悉身心障礙者有前條情形者，得通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關。前二項通報人之身分資料，應予保密。","三、食品安全衛生管理法：","(一)第43條規定，主管機關對於檢舉查獲違反本法規定之食品、食品添加物、食品器具、食品容器或包裝、食品用洗潔劑、標示、宣傳、廣告或食品業者，除應對檢舉人身分資料嚴守秘密外，並得酌予獎勵。公務員如有洩密情事，應依法追究刑事及行政責任。前項主管機關受理檢舉案件之管轄、處理期間、保密、檢舉人獎勵及其他應遵行事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之。第一項檢舉人身分資料之保密，於訴訟程序，亦同。","(二)第50條規定，雇主不得因勞工向主管機關或司法機關揭露違反本法之行為、擔任訴訟程序之證人或拒絕參與違反本法之行為而予解僱、調職或其他不利之處分。雇主或代表雇主行使管理權之人，為前項規定所為之解僱、降調或減薪者，無效。雇主以外之人曾參與違反本法之規定且應負刑事責任之行為，而向主管機關或司法機關揭露，因而破獲雇主違反本法之行為者，減輕或免除其刑。","四、藥事法第81條規定，舉發或緝獲偽藥、劣藥、禁藥及不良醫療器材，應予獎勵。同法施行細則第43條規定，對於舉發人或協助緝獲偽藥、劣藥、禁藥、不良醫療器材及未經核准製造或輸入醫療器材者之姓名，應嚴予保密，不得洩漏。","五、醫療器材管理法第59條規定，主管機關對於檢舉查獲不良醫療器材或未經查驗登記或登錄之醫療器材者，除應對檢舉人身分資料嚴守秘密外，並得酌予獎勵。同法施行細則第32條規定，主管機關對於檢舉人之姓名、年齡、地址、文書、圖畫、消息、相貌、身分資料或其他足資辨別檢舉人之物品，除法律另有規定外，應予保密；有洩密者，應依個人資料保護法、刑法或其他法律處罰或懲處。對於檢舉人之檢舉書、筆錄或其他資料，應以密件保存，並禁止第三人閱覽或抄錄；施行細則第33條規定，受理檢舉之主管機關對於檢舉人之安全，於必要時，得洽請警察機關提供保護。前項檢舉人因檢舉案件而受有威脅、恐嚇或其他危害安全之行為或有發生之虞者，主管機關應洽請警察機關依法處理。","參、本部目前積極配合推動「行政院推動揭弊者保護專案」：","本部於113年3月21日衛授家字第1130560171號令修正「全國性社會福利財團法人誠信經營規範指導原則」，以及於113年4月17日衛部醫字第1131662709號令發布訂定「全國性衛生財團法人及醫療財團法人誠信經營規範指導原則」，輔導達規模之財團法人，於既有或自訂規範內，依「揭弊者保護公版內容」納入揭弊保護要素，以落實揭弊者保護理念。","肆、結語","揭弊者保護為反貪腐之重要機制，現階段本部全力配合法務部推動「行政院推動揭弊者保護專案措施」，輔導達規模之財團法人，將揭弊保護基本要素納入誠信經營規範；本部肯認揭弊者保護之必要性，將依大院之審議結果，持續推動揭弊者保護機制。"],["金管會書面資料：","「刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」、「揭弊者保護法草案」報告","主席、各位委員先進，大家好：","今天大院第11屆第1會期貴委員會第23次全體委員會議，承貴委員會邀請就「刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」、「揭弊者保護法草案」進行報告，茲就所涉本會監理部分予以說明，敬請指教。","壹、中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案","一、行政院會於113年5月9日通過「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例」草案。依其立法說明，現行刑法規定無法全面評價詐欺行為之惡性及真正發揮遏止效果，爰針對新型態詐欺犯罪，採取特別刑法之立法模式。與中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案比較，該條例對詐欺犯罪之罰度更為加重。又鑒於詐欺犯罪之可罰性在於主觀犯意及行為態樣，自不宜因行為人是否具有特定身分而加重處罰。","二、有關中華民國刑法修正草案之刑事政策，本會尊重主管機關法務部權責。","貳、揭弊者保護法草案","一、行政院研議過程及方向","行政院前於108年5月將「揭弊者保護法草案」（公私合併版）函請大院審議，109年1月因屆期不續審而退回行政院重行審議。嗣經行政院召開多次協商會議審查，邀集相關部會討論，考量倘將私部門納入本草案，影響層面恐過於廣泛，爰現階段政策方向改採將公部門納入揭弊者保護法範圍，私部門則透過行政指導等行政措施逐步推動。","二、本會相應措施","(一)本會已於金控業、銀行業、證券業及保險業各業之內部控制及稽核制度實施辦法，明文要求金融業者應將檢舉制度納入其內部控制制度。","(二)本會業將金融業檢舉制度之辦理情形（包括檢舉人身分保密、不得因檢舉而對檢舉人予以解僱等不利處分等）納入檢查範圍。","(三)依行政院112年11月1日核定之「行政院推動揭弊者保護專案」，本會督導轄管之財團法人、中央存款保險公司已完成訂（修）誠信經營規範，並將檢舉制度運作情形列為今年度上市（櫃）公司年報抽查審閱之項目。","三、結語","有關揭弊者保護法草案之立法政策方向，本會尊重主管機關法務部權責。","以上報告，敬請各位委員指教，並祝各位委員身體健康，萬事如意。謝謝！"],["行政院公共工程委員會書面資料："]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.57909375,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.122843750000001,"end":6.7809687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.13909375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.22596875,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.245968750000003,"end":34.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.299718750000004,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.26971875,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.892843750000004,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.75346875,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.65159375,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.735343750000006,"end":57.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.24971875000001,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":62.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.68346875,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.88159375000001,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.21409375,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.58471875000001,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.27221875000001,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.88346875,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.00096875,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.02159375000001,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.20596875000001,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.79221875,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.05784375,"end":101.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.38221875,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.80346875000001,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.73909375000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.56534375000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.80971875,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.29034375,"end":122.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.28596875000001,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.58909375,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.83346875,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.58409375000002,"end":137.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.44409375,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.45659375,"end":152.76659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":4.464,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":7.406,"end":32.503,"text":"街壁者保護法的部分加以說明。」那跟其他委員或是行政院版本類似的因為剛剛其他委員有說明了那我就不多做說明我主要放在一個部分就是有關泄密的行者因為我發現各個版本中只有我跟洪孟凱的委員有泄密行者的部分那當然其他人不是說沒有而是他回歸到刑法132條跟316條"},{"start":35.385,"end":46.123,"text":"那我們自己的這個重視泄密的部分主要是因為我們發現即使在講求偵查不公開的檢方法務部"},{"start":47.123,"end":69.21,"text":"連政署現在幾乎是偵查大公開那有一些雜誌甚至已經變成了法務部的法務部公報就只要有重大案件隔天或同一個禮拜該週刊就會把完整詳細的內容全部會公布在外也就是說在這偵查大公開的時代我們為了保障接避者"},{"start":70.35,"end":78.655,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":95.245,"end":120.886,"text":"那我相信說在接避者保護法中加訂定相關的刑責這對於保護接避者一定會起他一定的法律效果那施部門的部分我們也認為應該也要有相關刑責的那個設計因為目前譬如說食品安全等等的問題環境污染等等的問題雖然這個都是民間企業"},{"start":122.307,"end":128.494,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":129.861,"end":138.507,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"}]}},{"id":"152574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30d71e5f2e3ded5c0ec1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f1a9e9319cd73d1645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:33:43 - 09:37:18","影片長度":"00:03:35","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":215,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:37:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:33:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時33分）主席、各位委員。本席今天提出的也是刑法第三百三十九條之四的修正草案，主要也是針對這個詐欺罪，我們希望從一年以上七年以下有期徒刑，提高到三年以上十年以下有期徒刑。尤其是在第三百三十九條之四裡面規範了，包含「冒用政府機關或公務員名義犯之」，這個就是很多投資詐欺假冒自己是檢察官、假冒自己是警察單位欺騙許多善良的民眾，成功騙取許多高額的金額。在行政院洗錢防制辦公室的報告裡面，平均詐欺犯罪所得每年高達700億元，700億元也深刻地影響了我國的經濟、金融秩序。","另外在第三百三十九條之四裡面也包含了以電腦合成或其他科技方法製作關於他人的不實影像，我想隨著AI科技的發展之後，未來相關的詐騙行為，可以透過這種新科技去詐騙獲取被害人信任的方式也會愈來愈多，現行的法律只有一年以上七年以下有期徒刑，對於這個詐騙犯罪來講，根本沒有嚇阻作用。","另外，為什麼要提這個三年以上？因為我們看到法務部的統計，106年到110年這5年的詐欺罪有罪判決的分布，40%判決是六個月以下，30%是判一到三年，20%是判處拘役。換句話說，等於有半數以上的人基本上被判刑在半年以下而已，真正被判處到三年以上的人只占了0.5%。所以我想這樣的罪刑對詐欺犯罪來講，根本就是一項鼓勵犯罪的行為。加上現行的法律制度，合併各項罪責之後，對於詐欺犯根本沒有嚇阻作用。","另外我們也常在民間聽到開玩笑說，詐欺犯最怕被送到哪裡去法辦？他們都說最怕被送去中國大陸。按照我國的憲法、按照我國現在的民主制度，我們當然認為中國大陸的法律制度跟臺灣不太一致，他們不是民主國家，但是如果要參考其他民主國家，包含韓國的刑法第三百四十七條，對於詐騙也是處十年以下有期徒刑，併科罰金大概是四十七萬臺幣；日本的刑法第二百四十六條也是處十年以下有期徒刑；德國刑法第二百六十三條第三項犯罪情節嚴重者，也是處十年以下有期徒刑，綜觀世界各民主先進國家對於詐欺罪的判刑，其實遠遠超過臺灣許多，所以我想臺灣要躋身先進民主國家之列，要澈底地解決嚴懲詐欺問題，就應該提高刑法在後端追究責任的時候，對於詐欺犯罪要提高它的罪責以增加嚇阻作用。","當然這個修法沒有辦法完全解決詐欺問題，更重要的是希望透過這個修法，各行政部門能夠互相合作以抓到更多的詐欺犯，讓這些詐欺罪犯被抓了之後得到法律應有的懲罰跟審判，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來請羅委員幫我代理主席，讓我進行提案說明，謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員做提案說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.125968750000002,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.59346875,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.64534375,"end":87.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.96659375,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.87784375000001,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.00846875,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.13534375,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.09909375,"end":213.28034375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.536,"end":27.768,"text":"主席各位委員本期今天提出的是也是刑法339條之四修正草案主要也是針對這個詐欺罪我們希望從一年以上七年以下有期徒刑提高到三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":28.388,"end":47.364,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會主席等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會主席等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會主席等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":48.985,"end":71.975,"text":"在這個行政院洗鞋房子辦公室的報告裡面平均詐欺犯最所得每年高達的700億元。700億元我想也深刻的影響了我國的經濟金融秩序。另外在三十九條之四裡面也包含了以電腦合成或其他科技方法製作關於他人的不實影像。我想隨著AI科技的發展之後"},{"start":72.515,"end":81.818,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":90.1,"end":98.024,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":115.251,"end":121.38,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":131.235,"end":135.12,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":148.755,"end":158.217,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":173.681,"end":193.94,"text":"政官世界各民主先進國家對於詐欺罪的判刑其實遠遠超過臺灣許多所以我想臺灣要擠身先進民主國家之列要徹底的解決嚴懲詐欺問題就應該提高刑法在後端在追究責任的時候對於詐欺犯罪要提高他的罪責"},{"start":194.58,"end":201.443,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員馬文君等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員"}]}},{"id":"152573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30599b085846c29889c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f94c373f717d6a0d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"09:29:41 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09:33:38","影片長度":"00:03:57","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":237,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:33:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:29:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（9時29分）本席針對刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三以及第三百三十九條之四條文提出修正草案，基於這幾年來詐欺、尤其是投資詐欺，造成對我們社會以及受害者的影響實在是越來越重、越來越離譜，所以本席認為非加以重刑提高刑責，否則無以防範。那麼詐欺行為之刑期增加，分別在第三百三十九條提高到一年以上七年以下；第三百三十九條之三為十年以下；最重要在投資詐欺的部分，第三百三十九條之四是三年以上十年以下之徒刑。我特別強調投資詐欺的原因是因為投資詐欺近年來的案件，我舉112年為例，竟然高達1萬1,775件，詐欺金額超過40億，達53.7億，所有詐欺案件總和加起來還不到它的三分之一，這麼高的財損能夠追回來的金額少之又少，所以投資詐欺不但讓受害人遭受詐欺的心理創傷，而且被詐欺之後，未來還要面對因為受害金額而受到的經濟壓力。","所以我認為加重詐欺行為之刑期，將投資詐欺列為詐欺加重的事由非常重要，而且也必須趕快著手，至於剛才我們提到的，在第三百三十九條之四，同樣是投資詐欺這一項目，我們也加入「三人以上共同犯之」這一個部分的刑期加重，因為這是比照另外一個法案，就是組織犯罪條例，這是非常有道理的，因為現在的詐欺已經非一人、兩人去從事可以做到，現在的詐欺都是集團化、集體化的作為，一方面他們可以分散每一位參與者的罪責，二方面分飾不同角色才有辦法做出更多、更大使受害人相信的詐欺行為，所以這樣子的詐欺行為已經遍及現在超過90%以上的詐欺案件，所以我們認為處三年以上十年以下，提高這個刑責是當務之急。以上，我作簡單地報告跟說明，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位我們請黃健豪委員進行提案說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.37721875,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.84534375,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.364093750000002,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.579093750000002,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.32034375,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.53909375,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.61471875,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.67784375,"end":48.563468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.765968750000006,"end":50.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.533468750000004,"end":52.242218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.562843750000006,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.047843750000006,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.00534375,"end":57.000968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.16909375,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.85659375,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.45096875,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.42534375000001,"end":69.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.06221875,"end":70.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.31096875,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.55034375000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.46971875,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.92284375000001,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.38221875,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.96409375,"end":115.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.53596875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.44284375000001,"end":137.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.16471875000002,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.56784375,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.00221875,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.92534375000002,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.20784375000002,"end":192.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.21596875,"end":203.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.35346875000002,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.84284375000001,"end":235.42034375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.089,"end":40.581,"text":"本席針對刑法第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之三以及三百三十九條第四條文提出修正草案。那麼基於這幾年來詐欺尤其是投資詐欺造成對我們社會以及受害者的影響實在是越來越重越來越離譜"},{"start":42.631,"end":59.487,"text":"所以本席認為非加以重刑提高刑責否則無以防範那麼詐欺行為之刑期增加分別在三百"},{"start":61.249,"end":76.417,"text":"三十九條提高到一年以上七年以下三百三十九條之三十年以下最重要在投資詐欺的部分三百三十九條之四三年以上"},{"start":78.661,"end":91.813,"text":"十年以下之徒刑。」我特別強調投資詐欺的原因是因為投資詐欺近年來的案件已經高達我舉112年竟然高達11775件那麼他詐欺的金額將近40億了"},{"start":104.188,"end":107.192,"text":"保證保證超過40億答53.7億53.7億是所有詐欺案件總和加起來還不到"},{"start":116.527,"end":118.568,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":143.183,"end":158.707,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會．"},{"start":162.028,"end":188.129,"text":"三百三十九條之四也同樣投資詐欺這一項目我們也加入在三人以上共同販資這一個部分的刑期的加重因為這是比照我們刑法另外有一個法案那麼就是主持犯罪條例那這是非常有道理的因為現在的詐欺已經非一人兩人去"},{"start":189.957,"end":196.662,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":214.395,"end":233.413,"text":"所以這樣子的詐欺行為已經遍及於現在超過百分之九十以上的詐欺案件所以我們認為除以三年以上十年以下提高這個刑責是當務之急那以上我做簡單的報告跟說明謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309d48faffa438aa05c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f0d1eb0eeb46feded5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:25:45 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09:29:33","影片長度":"00:03:48","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":228,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:29:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:25:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":110,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時25分）反制詐騙人人有責，現在詐騙已經是嚴重到變成國安問題，臺灣的詐騙橫行，已經到讓大家不可思議的地步。大家看到賴清德總統當選人昨天在民進黨中常會拿了一個例子，他說前經濟部長尹啟銘也會被詐騙，表示當過政務官有社會歷練都會被詐騙。我覺得賴清德總統當選人舉的這個例子很好，但是卻舉得不對，講得很好，但舉的例子不對，因為你與其拿馬政府時候的政務官來舉例，你怎麼不拿民進黨新提名的NCC主委，由現任的副主委翁柏宗來做例子不是更好？這位已經在反詐騙當中扮演重要角色，NCC這個機關是非常重要的角色，而他未來也可能擔任更高職務，在2019年就被詐騙了358萬元，如果連反詐單位的領導人都會被詐騙，大家就可以看到現在詐騙有多嚴重。就像賴清德總統當選人舉尹啟銘的例子，尹啟銘的例子是因為他接到詐騙集團說他兒子被綁架，天下父母心啊！關心則亂，所以他誤信了，被詐騙了一百多萬，可是我們反制詐騙重要機關之一的NCC副主委，未來也可能是最高的NCC主委，他也一樣被詐騙了三百多萬元。所以我覺得基本上賴清德舉的例子，如果要讓大家更能夠窺見全貌，也不要只舉尹啟銘的例子，翁柏宗的例子也應該一起舉。","今天我們在這邊談論到修法的問題，其實出發點很簡單，我看到政府部門的報告，大致重點就是對於刑度的部分有一些不同的意見，當然我知道重刑也不一定能夠遏阻現在詐騙的氾濫，但是加重刑罰也確實是方式之一。我的提案有些是針對所謂刑度的地板，有些是針對刑度的天花板，我認為現在很多輕判的狀況，所以可以針對刑度的地板，大家一起來研究是不是修法加重。當然刑度的加重不是萬靈丹，這點我也相信、我也認同啦，可是問題是，除了刑度加重之外，到現在為止，我們政府到底拿出什麼樣的一個方式、什麼樣的一個作為、什麼樣的一個成績來阻遏現在不斷翻倍的詐騙案件、不斷危害到我們所有老百姓的詐騙案件？我沒有看到政府拿出對策出來，都是口號而已啊！打詐辦公室成立以後，只看到詐騙越來越多！所以今天的修法，我覺得只是個起步，希望透過所謂更高嚇阻的刑度，只是在打擊詐騙這工作上，往前多走一步。以上。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們接下來請王世堅委員進行提案說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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09:25:36","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":528,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:25:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:16:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":98,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時16分）按照你的指示，就兩案。"],["主席：兩案的話，我給你時間長一點，6分鐘。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。","主席、各位委員。2,470天，這是從2017年8月12日全國司法改革會議總結會議到今天間隔的時間；2,470天，這是一個承諾臺灣社會要制定公私合併吹哨者保護法的民進黨政府跳票的時間。制定吹哨者保護法不僅僅是我們司改國是會議的承諾，更是我國在聯合國反貪腐公約下面所承擔的責任。我們在聯合國反貪腐公約第一次、第二次國家報告上面白紙黑字地寫，我國政府在研訂公益揭弊保護法，請問這一部公益揭弊保護法到底在哪裡？我今年回到立法院，在第一次行政院院長總質詢的時候，我就請教陳建仁院長，行政院版的吹哨者保護法什麼時候要交出來？他告訴臺灣社會說他要研議，研議到今天，行政院長陳建仁要率內閣總辭了，請問行政院版的吹哨者保護法在哪裡？依然不見蹤跡！這就是為什麼民主進步黨在推動司法改革的時候，讓人民失望透頂的原因。","任何一個文明法治的國家都知道制定吹哨者保護機制的重要性，我們不能夠讓勇敢站出來揭發弊案的人，面對來自於權貴、來自於財團、來自於那些作奸犯科的人無止境的追殺。在我國的歷史上，吹哨者的血淚斑斑，有人被殺，有人家破人亡，有人整個人生都毀了，但是我們的政府無動於衷，提不出一部吹哨者保護法。","今天非常感謝我們的召委吳宗憲，聽到社會各界殷切地期盼，終於把吹哨者保護法排上議程。臺灣制定吹哨者保護法，不僅僅是我們向文明社會所作下的莊嚴承諾，更是我們要清楚地告訴全國人民，這個社會不能讓壞人精神抖擻，好人卻已經疲憊。","今天要提的第二個法案，是有關加重詐欺罪，刑法第三百三十九條之四的規定，我曾經以臺版柬埔寨首腦「藍道」在司法及法制委員會的公聽會當過例子。這一位加入了黑幫的詐騙組織，犯下31個加重詐欺罪，我們的政府告訴人民，加重詐欺的法定刑是一年以上七年以下，但有沒有人可以解釋，為什麼犯下31個加重詐欺罪的「藍道」，他一天的牢都沒有坐？在我們層層法律的解釋、適用下，12個加重詐欺罪，宣告刑六年，執行刑剩下十個月，最後易服勞動，一天牢都沒有坐。另外犯的19個加重詐欺罪，宣告刑二十一年，執行刑兩年，最後宣告緩刑，一個牢也沒有坐。這樣的司法實務、這樣的刑事司法在傳遞給社會、傳遞給我們的年輕人，什麼樣的訊息？太好賺了，太好賺了！犯罪的成本趨近於零，我不去參加詐騙集團，有什麼比這個更有前途的？這位「藍道」一路在我們的刑事司法政策下，從詐騙集團的小弟一步一步走到首腦，最後犯下令人髮指的臺版柬埔寨案，這樣的案件不需要我們的政府痛定思痛嗎？","我要特別說明的是，在我國的司法實務上所出現最荒謬的狀況是，當如果是用犯罪組織的型態去進行詐欺行為的時候，我們的組織犯罪防制條例是源自於美國的RICO法案，在美國的RICO法案之下，如果是以組織的型態去進行特定的犯罪行為，那個是刑度一下子就拉高，為什麼？因為從犯罪本身行為的罪質，可責性會造成對法益的侵害，組織犯罪比個人犯罪也好，三人同夥去犯也好，它嚴重的程度嚴重太多了，但在我國目前刑事司法的操作下，透過想像競合，從一重處斷，組織犯罪不用論，直接論第三百三十九條之四，這是長久以來我國法院操作的現狀，也是我國目前刑事司法在實踐上為什麼沒有辦法有效打擊透過組織犯罪的型態來進行詐騙行為最深層的原因。","也正是因為這個樣子，台灣民眾黨黨團今天一方面針對吹哨者保護法提出黨團的版本，另外一方面，針對犯罪組織進行詐騙行為，我們認為絕對不能再讓他想像競合掉──絕對不能再讓他透過想像競合的抽象法律概念，在我們的刑事司法制度當中，把他的罪責、把他的惡行、把他的實害全部都蒸發掉。所以我們透過第三百三十九條之四條文的修訂，希望能夠大幅加重處罰犯罪組織進行詐騙的行為。敬請各位委員支持，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請羅智強委員進行提案說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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請問這一部公益階幣保護法到底在哪裡我今年回到立法院在第一次行政院院長總質詢的時候我就請教一下我們陳建仁院長行政院版的吹哨者保護法什麼時候要交出來他告訴台灣社會"},{"start":128.029,"end":153.151,"text":"他要演繹。演繹到今天行政院長陳建仁要率內閣總辭了請問行政院版的吹哨者保護法在哪裡依然不見蹤跡這是為什麼民主進步黨在推動司法改革的時候讓人民失望透頂"},{"start":154.83,"end":182.837,"text":"任何一個文明法治的國家都知道制定吹哨者保護機制的重要性我們不能夠讓勇敢要站出來揭發弊案的人竟然要面對來自於權貴來自於財團來自於那些坐監犯科的人他們無止盡的追殺"},{"start":184.858,"end":213.686,"text":"在我國的歷史上吹哨者的血淚斑斑有人被殺有人家破人亡有人整個人生都毀了但是我們的政府無動於衷提不出一步吹哨者保護法出來今天非常感謝我們的召委吳宗憲聽到社會各界殷切的期盼"},{"start":214.778,"end":218.259,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":241.84,"end":269.588,"text":"今天要提的第二個法案是有關於加重詐欺罪刑法三百三十九條之四的規定我曾經以台版柬埔寨首腦藍道在司法法制委員會的公聽會當過例子這一位加入了黑幫的詐騙組織"},{"start":271.693,"end":300.356,"text":"犯下三十一個加重詐欺罪。」我們的政府告訴人民加重詐欺的法定刑是一年以上七年以下但有沒有人可以解釋為什麼犯下三十一個加重詐欺罪的難道他一天的勞都沒有做他一天的勞都沒有做"},{"start":302.165,"end":328.684,"text":"在我們層層法律的解釋適用下12個加重詐欺罪宣告刑6年執行刑剩下10個月最後一服勞動一天勞動沒有做另外犯的19個加重詐欺罪宣告刑21年"},{"start":331.637,"end":354.07,"text":"執行刑兩年最後宣告緩刑一個牢也沒有做這樣的司法實務這樣的刑事司法我們在傳遞給社會傳遞給我們的年輕人什麼樣子的訊息太好賺了太好賺了犯罪的成本趨近於零"},{"start":362.847,"end":389.639,"text":"我不去參加詐騙集團有什麼比這個更有前途的這位難道一路在我們的刑事司法政策下從詐騙集團的小弟一步一步走到首腦最後犯下令人髮指的台版柬埔寨這樣的案件不需要我們的政府痛定思痛嗎"},{"start":393.035,"end":414.173,"text":"我要特別說明的是在我國的司法實務上所出現最荒謬的狀況是當如果是用犯罪組織的形態來去進行詐欺的行為的時候我們組織犯罪防治條例是源自於美國的RICO法案"},{"start":415.205,"end":441.743,"text":"在美國的RICO法案之下如果是以組織的形態去進行特定的犯罪行為那個是刑度啊一下子就拉高為什麼因為從犯罪本身行為的罪質可責性會造成對法律的侵害組織犯罪比個人犯罪也好三人同夥去犯也好"},{"start":442.861,"end":468.041,"text":"他嚴重的懲處嚴重太多了但在我國目前刑事司法的操作下透過想像競合從一種阻斷組織犯罪不用論直接論339條之事這是長久以來我國法院操作的現狀也是我國目前刑事司法"},{"start":469.4,"end":481.312,"text":"在實踐上為什麼沒有辦法有效的打擊透過組織犯罪的形態來進行詐騙行為最深層的原因也正是因為這個樣子台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":484.485,"end":494.772,"text":"我們今天一方面針對崔少哲保護法提出黨團的版本另外一方面針對犯罪組織進行詐騙行為我們認為絕對不能再讓他想像淨和掉"},{"start":500.936,"end":527.447,"text":"絕對不能再讓他透過想像競合的抽象法律概念在我們的刑事司法制度當中把他的罪責把他的惡行把他的失害全部都蒸發掉所以我們透過三百三十九條之四條文的修訂希望能夠大幅加重處罰犯罪組織進行詐騙的行為敬請各位委員支持以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30e626e8ab2ec720e5c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fc178a6095f115eaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:13:56 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09:16:35","影片長度":"00:02:39","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-16","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-23"},"duration":159,"end_time":"2024-05-16T09:16:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-16T09:13:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":93,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時13分）公益揭弊不等於檢舉，為政府機關跟民間單位的內部人員，發現該組織內部有非法的、不正當的、損及公眾利益的弊端，而主動揭發的行為。因為公益揭弊行為具有相當大遭受報復的風險，因此公益揭弊者需要國家保護，雖然我們現行的揭弊者條文散布在各個法律當中，可是缺乏對公益揭弊者完整的保護機制，而有專法訂定的迫切性。","本席提出的公益揭弊者保護法有七大重點：第一，廣泛定義公私立機構內部揭弊者的身分，囊括一切公私立機構的內部人員、學生、各級民意代表與其助理。第二，明確訂定受理公益揭弊機關的任務，以國家機密保護法機密等級做三級分工，不是隨便跟外部檢舉。第三，外部揭弊機制確保不吃案，揭弊者於二十日內未獲受理調查的通知，受理調查後六個月內未獲調查結果的通知，則得透過外部揭弊機制來揭弊，包括民意代表、媒體跟公益團體。第四，沿用證人保護法來強化揭弊者人身安全保護。第五，被揭弊者禁止不當措施，並要負補償責任。第六，設立兼具保護、調查與協助專業人員公益通報者保護官的制度。第七，強化揭弊者的保護，包括身分的資料保密、回復原狀、補償金、司法免責、揭弊獎金不得扣押、擴大保護對象到揭弊者本人跟配偶及其血親，生活上有密切相關之人。","經過多年努力，終於在立法院第9屆第7會期審查吹哨者專法，惟因朝野共識尚且不足，沒有辦法在該屆順利通過，所以期待本屆能夠順利通過，請各位委員支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請民眾黨黨團代表黃委員國昌進行提案說明。","黃委員，請問你是要說明兩案還是一案？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案、(三)委員林月\n琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(四)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」\n案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊\n者保護法草案」案、(七)委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":28.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.937843750000003,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.49846875,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.91096875,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.74784375,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.16784375,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.20034375,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.09596875,"end":159.24659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.453,"end":37.55,"text":"公益揭弊不等於檢舉為政府機關跟民間單位的內部人員發現該組織內部有非法不正當損及公眾利益的弊端而主動揭發的行為因為公益揭弊行為具有相當大遭受報復的風險因此公益揭弊者需要國家保護雖然現在現行我們的揭弊者條文散佈在各個法律當中"},{"start":38.953,"end":61.629,"text":"可是缺乏對公益者完整的保護機制而有專法定定的迫切性。本席提出公益階壁者保護法有七大重點。第一,廣泛定義公私立機構內部階壁者的身份,難怪一切公私立機構內部人員、學生各級民意代表與其助理。"},{"start":62.249,"end":89.501,"text":"第二明確定定受理公益揭弊機關的任務以國家機密保護法機密等級做三級分工不是隨便跟外部做檢舉那第三外部揭弊機制確保不次案揭弊者於二十日內未獲受理調查的通知受理調查後六個月內未獲調查結果的通知"},{"start":89.957,"end":94.599,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":115.799,"end":131.909,"text":"公益通報者保護官的制度第七強化接避者的保護包括身份的資料保密回復原狀補償金施法免責接避獎金不得扣押"},{"start":132.662,"end":152.06,"text":"民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具:「中華民國刑"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}