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洪孟楷 洪委員林德福 林委員"},{"start":2326.839,"end":2343.474,"text":"黃珊珊、黃委員陳超明、陳委員邱若驊、邱委員吳秉瑞、吳委員賴仕寶、賴委員介紹財政部莊翠雲部長法制處專門委員謝志玲"},{"start":2355.113,"end":2383.912,"text":"國務署署長陳柏澄復稅署署長宋秀琳官務署署長彭英偉國有財產署署長曾國基城鎮資訊中心主任張文希行政院主計總署副主計長陳慧娟公務預算處署長徐永毅"},{"start":2387.253,"end":2409.291,"text":"內政部明政司檢任視察檢譽金國土管理署檢任政工程師蔡育滿國家發展委員會經濟發展處專委郭永騰原住民族委員會綜合規劃處專門委員曾興忠"},{"start":2414.438,"end":2437.572,"text":"環境部會計處處長陳敬興法部參事林豐文台北市政府財政局專委周淑慧台北市政府財政局副局長黃玉敏"},{"start":2441.286,"end":2458.687,"text":"市政府主計處專門委員張英惠各縣市都有派人來是不是請大家參閱一下名單因為這個名單非常多包括"},{"start":2460.08,"end":2479.758,"text":"桃園、台中、台南、高雄、新竹、苗栗、南投、彰化、雲林、嘉義、屏東、宜蘭、花蓮、台東、澎湖、金門、連江縣、基隆市、新竹市、嘉義市等,歡迎介紹羅廷偉羅委員陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":2492.108,"end":2493.629,"text":"部分條文修正草案等五案。」第三條條文修正草案"},{"start":2523.133,"end":2529.139,"text":"第8條條文修正草案案。五、委員王宏威等24人擬具《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條、第30條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2542.599,"end":2558.094,"text":"第8條、第12條及第16條之一條文修正草案案、七、委員賴瑞榮等16人、委員蔡奕宇等16人分別擬具《財政收支劃分法》第16條之一條文修正草案等二案"},{"start":2563.018,"end":2582.234,"text":"第16條之二、第34條之二及第38條之二條文修正草案案。九、委員瀨世保等22人擬具《財政收支劃分法》第38條之一條文修正草案案。現在我們請提案黨團代表委員說明提案"},{"start":2583.629,"end":2609.867,"text":"要職後再請財政部莊部長回應內容那因為先後資訊第一位請洪孟楷、洪委員順便提案要職主席以及我們各位現場的同仁還有我們今天各縣市以及中央官員首先我說"},{"start":2611.209,"end":2629.371,"text":"今天要很沉重、嚴肅、誠懇地向執政的中央政府提出呼籲各縣市有很多辛苦不為人知就是在編預算的時候這種編不出的痛苦好像媽媽看著孩子嗷嗷待哺米缸裡卻是空著的心情"},{"start":2630.578,"end":2655.257,"text":"還有我們也認為人應該生而平等在台灣卻因為出生在不同縣市而不公平不平等這種不平等還不是因為山川地理的限制而是因為中央主政者用制度用法令用資源分配所造成的不平等而且越來越不平等這些話不是我發明的"},{"start":2656.062,"end":2674.895,"text":"這些話是2012年民眾黨黨主席蘇貞昌率同當時執政的縣市長包括今天就職的賴清德總統當時是台南市市長今天任命的潘孟安秘書長當時是民眾黨的黨團幹事長共同發出的聲明"},{"start":2681.311,"end":2708.421,"text":"12年前民眾黨在野時候就幾乎要修正財務收支劃分法而當時用的理由到民眾黨執政8年過去完全不想動我們要問如果說當時時空背景環境各縣市在編列預算的時候如同嗷嗷待哺的兒子、小孩卻看到米缸沒有米的這個心情過去8年有沒有更加具有"},{"start":2709.261,"end":2731.142,"text":"因為過去8年我們中央跟地方的收入比例越來越懸殊也因此在1999年財務劃分法修正之後到現在25年未修正我們今天好幾個黨團以及好幾位委員都提出修正的部分就是希望能夠回歸公平"},{"start":2732.099,"end":2748.321,"text":"把過去中央跟地方能夠有不平等的地方給消滅再者現在我們財政委員會上面兩個大字國家至上人民眾第一也跟今天賴清德總統就職演說所講的"},{"start":2750.625,"end":2779.138,"text":"國家優先人民第一是一樣的也因此我們說只要錢是用在我們台灣2350萬人身上無論是放在中央、無論是放在地方相信都可以做有合理的分配而地方政府在第一線面對民眾的需求相信一定更了解大家的需求也因此我們支持應該要回歸到常態所以今天本席以及國民黨黨團所提出相關版本"},{"start":2779.838,"end":2799.765,"text":"就是希望把中央過去在財政收支劃分法裡面認為的60比40多出來的15%稅收還給地方再者也依照照顧弱勢及離島縣市保障基本需求、人人平等以及首都及金融重症保留款等四大原則來進行分配"},{"start":2800.445,"end":2813.203,"text":"最後,我們也提出,修法後每個縣市所獲得的統籌非饋款金額較調整前都增加,有利於地方施政跟縮短城鄉差距。綜合以上幾點,我們懇請"},{"start":2815.746,"end":2840.098,"text":"在場的所有委員同仁共同的來支持這一次我們所提出來的財務收支劃分法那並且也請中央跟地方不要堅持己見而好好聽到廣大的民意以及大家的需求來共同促成國約25年之後再一次修正的財劃法謝謝謝謝洪孟楷、洪委員"},{"start":2843.953,"end":2851.288,"text":"第二位,請台灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊、黃委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":2863.252,"end":2879.782,"text":"提出的財政收支劃分法其實非常的全面我們也希望剛剛彭文凱委員所說的其實每個地方政府都有一樣的痛那財化法在19"},{"start":2881.883,"end":2901.377,"text":"1999年、也就是25年前曾經修正過最後一次。25年來沒有再進一步的做任何修正。而且所有的相關的內容跟細項只有在去年的時候曾經立法院有提案要求財政部去徵詢各地方的意見。"},{"start":2902.658,"end":2918.206,"text":"徵詢了一年,到現在還在徵詢所以民眾黨所提出的財法法沒有辦法在等待財政部繼續徵詢所以我們提出了三個重點第一個要擴大統籌分配稅款的規模也就是把柄做大"},{"start":2918.866,"end":2934.527,"text":"第2個要穩定地方政府的財政紀律還有設置統籌分配稅款的分配委員會首先民眾黨團的版本擴大了統籌分配稅款的規模讓營業稅收入歸給地方政府"},{"start":2935.367,"end":2953.693,"text":"將菸酒稅同步歸給地方政府。這個估計在民眾黨團的版本之下大概可以增加2700多億的統籌分配稅款透過地方政府給地方政府更多的資源可以強化地方政府不管他在財政紀律上還是他的建設經費上"},{"start":2955.799,"end":2974.63,"text":"第2個部分強化地方政府的財政紀律我們希望透過統籌分配稅款優先彌補地方政府的財政基準需要還有財政基準收入的差額也就是說統籌分配稅款最重要的目的是來協助地方政府平衡他每一年的預算"},{"start":2975.43,"end":2994.64,"text":"只有平衡預算才有餘力進行建設中央政府給予地方的補助才會更有意義也就是說不是讓地方政府仰賴中央的筆息第三個我們版本裡面設計了統籌分配稅款的分配委員會對於中央統籌分配稅款用來協助地方政府發展"},{"start":2996,"end":3021.737,"text":"這地方建設的部分我們不希望中央政府繼續獨攬大權而是透過學者專家各地方政府的代表財政部的代表共同組成分配的委員會來決定分配稅款所以讓各個地方政府可以更有效的發揮地方不同的特色而且由委員會來針對給他適合的補助目前為止現在完全是由中央"},{"start":3023.378,"end":3049.818,"text":"一意孤行,然後地方政府幾乎沒有任何發聲權力所以我們希望橫貧地方的發展差異還有給予各地方政府更多財政上的支援這是一個非常穩健長期的規範我們希望各地方政府的財政狀況可以同步穩定、改善我們也肯定召委儘速地排審我們也希望財政部在新政府能夠趕快提出"},{"start":3050.859,"end":3056.243,"text":"久未見到的行政院版本。謝謝。謝謝黃先生、黃委員。好,第三位請陳超明、陳委員。"},{"start":3073.735,"end":3098.251,"text":"今天本期提出財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第16條之一的修正草案在我提案說明以前請大家先看一個資料因為財政收支劃分法我在101年就開始提案了那放出來沒有"},{"start":3099.406,"end":3102.107,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3116.038,"end":3134.936,"text":"從95年到112年他繳了4147億那統籌分配款跟一般性的補助款在苗栗縣的補助才2022億那現在在第二章"},{"start":3139.605,"end":3144.587,"text":"我們以三級的財政縣市來講苗栗縣創稅交給中央4147億我們只分到2022億嘉義縣"},{"start":3154.636,"end":3165.28,"text":"他創稅963億他在統籌婚姻備款跟一般性的補助款他拿了2430億那講到屏東縣他交給中央的創稅是2627億中央補助給他3589億等於我曾經我給我兩千"},{"start":3180.326,"end":3193.103,"text":"兩千幾億給你中用的但是我本料越來越少那嘉義跟屏東縣的話他創稅少但是他分出來的更多所以我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":3194.434,"end":3216.799,"text":"所以今天財政收支劃分法超過20年都沒有修正那分配的一個公式已經不合現在的狀況造成六都跟匯六都地區的發展日漸差異更大最重要的問題當我們地方政府努力放稅卻沒有得到應有的回饋"},{"start":3217.839,"end":3229.179,"text":"也就是牟利的孩子我們要慚愧一次越牟利我分別的越少剛剛這張表已經了非常清楚所以在第8條、第12條、第16條之一"},{"start":3232.518,"end":3255.106,"text":"我認真的一種建議就是財政收支劃分法應給予牟利造商正在發展的社會制更友善的一個對待所以提出我有提出財政收支劃分法修正有幾個重點擴大統籌分配稅款的來源這第一點第二點"},{"start":3255.806,"end":3267.322,"text":"有19稅回饋在宣誓要提高他分配的比例因為三分鐘說明我只有簡單的講再來第三點土地中值稅應該歸給地方"},{"start":3269.738,"end":3296.666,"text":"第四點新增的普通統籌分配款這個指標裡面要避免工廠在鄉村繳稅在都市這裡面的差異很大幾十年都忍受了我第一張表是從一百零一年開始做到現在一百一十二年每一次我在談每一次都講好每一次都沒有改進我們不要求多"},{"start":3297.881,"end":3312.955,"text":"苗栗縣財政被控管,如果依照這個創稅的時候,你撥個300億、200億來補這一些差距,尤其這個差距看起來很令人傷心。我借兩成幾億,我本來那麼少錢,他們創稅少,他們借本那麼少錢。"},{"start":3315.663,"end":3343.283,"text":"我覺得這個真的要改進我們要求不多給正在努力創稅的苗栗縣給他一個對待不然現在很可憐財政會被監管拜託你們財政部都很保守錢都不敢說多付給我們我只希望用這一條來跟你們談判就好我希望我們部長、各位委員多多支持要有合理分配的比例我們真的很努力啦沒有人說一直在創稅"},{"start":3345.084,"end":3349.206,"text":"創的越多分的越少。我希望各位委員也支持這個談判。謝謝大家。"},{"start":3376.029,"end":3390.39,"text":"各位官員各位委員我今天所提的跟陳昭明委員提的也是一樣的利潤基礎也是有關菸酒稅法我們今天也是創稅很多在菸酒稅的部分但是是沒有分得不夠"},{"start":3391.471,"end":3413.066,"text":"我們金門早年非常的土地貧瘠現民的收入只有台灣地區的60%那民眾大概都是種植這個高粱跟小麥那後來我們設立金門酒廠42年設立金門酒廠但是不是那個時候就開始賣得很好金門縣政府有一陣子窮得沒有辦法發薪水只好發高粱酒那是到了民國91年以後"},{"start":3414.887,"end":3431.755,"text":"才因為我們的品質越做越好所以才開始慢慢地有賺錢那大家就覺得說金門縣好像是比較有錢但是呢以前在91年菸酒新制以前大家都看到我一直在看國庫署署長91年以前我們每一瓶酒的賺賣力只要交51塊多到了實施菸酒新制後我們這個菸酒稅每一瓶0.6的要交111塊"},{"start":3440.379,"end":3453.946,"text":"等於是我們的英九稅稅負增加了快將近60塊意思是說我們每一年呢就是多增加給光91年到95年間我們財政短收啦因為我們交給中央就短收了60幾億"},{"start":3455.647,"end":3474.794,"text":"二、按照這個地方制度法的相關規定比如說有些東西比如說自來水這邊我也提過很多次自來水這些不是縣的自治事項但是我們金門縣自己有自來水廠所有的這個營運成本啊其他的增加的都是我們縣政府自行負擔比如說大家知道我們做一個金門大橋那在像新北金門大橋是金門大、金門道、小金門之間一個大橋"},{"start":3479.756,"end":3506.899,"text":"新北的什麼淡江大橋、屏東的內灣、內澎灣的跨海大橋、澎湖的跨海大橋這些所有的營銷管理都是中央負擔但是金門縣的金門大橋是由我們金門縣政府這些管理都有我們全數負擔就是說有些地方這是不應該負擔的款項由我們金門的地方政府自己來負擔這個事實上也是非常的不公平所以呢我們在這裡其實今天的要求也不多本期所提出來的這個研究"},{"start":3509.081,"end":3525.334,"text":"第8條修正也不是在跟你們爭取額外的錢只是說這個法案我們提出來這個第8條我們提出來是說希望呢就是把這個金馬地區的這個菸酒稅改為增期收入減除1%作為積增及查緝經費其他的80%分回來那這個我提出的這個法案"},{"start":3528.737,"end":3547.471,"text":"跟這個行政院財政部不管是國民黨執政或是民進黨執政所提出的版本都一模一樣包括這一次的民進黨團的版本國民黨團的版本也都是完全一致的所以呢我了解本期了解說這個財政收支劃很困難垂直分配、水平分配都非常困難但是我們這一條呢事實上是"},{"start":3548.812,"end":3568.847,"text":"相對單純,不管是各黨各派或是藍綠的各級政府,都是一直以來都是有這樣的主張,那這已經超過20年來我們都是這樣主張,所以希望讓這一條可以優先的考慮修正版本,解決我們金門地區越來越辛苦的財政困境。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝陳玉珍、陳委員。來,我們接下來羅明才、羅昭惟。耐斯堡賴委員,來,到你。"},{"start":3585.898,"end":3606.263,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進我有兩個提案一邊講第一個就是我們就知道我們的財劃法上一次是1999年在今審之前我們的中央地方的錢比例多少呢6比4結果到現在今天為止變成75對25啊"},{"start":3613.475,"end":3637.85,"text":"這個中央政府的中央中央政府食髓知味啊錢越積越多錢越抓越多1999年25年前拿60%現在拿75%啊然後地方政府要錢就是像乞丐一樣啊仰望這個中央的 mercy你們打磁棒你們的慈悲"},{"start":3642.686,"end":3654.193,"text":"給地方來多一點這樣子毫無道理啊所以我的提案是修了第8條、第12、16條之2、37之2、38之2簡單來講我希望把餅做大"},{"start":3661.363,"end":3681.431,"text":"我的頒本比我們黨團客氣啊我們黨團希望能夠把你們挖5千7百多億,將近6千億我的頒本一半只有3千億就是所得稅增加20%增加20%這樣一調整過來就很接近了6對4還沒有到這樣子也差不多65對35"},{"start":3683.892,"end":3711.861,"text":"所以還是很客氣的這是我的這個提案有兩個提案第一個提案是這個第二個提案我們現在常常看到我政府來講的話現在來講這個中央政府都是很多的德政比如說馬上要來的里長的年終獎金七萬五大家鼓掌啊說這個很快要通過啊可是這個潛水處呢地方政府出啊"},{"start":3713.171,"end":3721.665,"text":"地方政府處還有包括警察夜點費的調整也是中央這裡一聲令下要調整"},{"start":3723.653,"end":3745.072,"text":"提供政委來買單所以都是中央請客、地方買單比一比皆是這樣的案件太多太多了這樣子啊其實讓人家感覺人家感覺這個都是玩假的就是中央現在把錢牢牢的拽在手上然後地方就像乞丐一樣要說你多一點、多一點、多一點"},{"start":3746.331,"end":3757.211,"text":"所以我們希望這一次我們羅昭瑋派這個案子我們希望能夠認真審下去到目前為止行政院非常不負責任行政院怎麼沒有版本呢"},{"start":3758.754,"end":3786.176,"text":"1999年到現在快25年了沒有修了地方這個我們的財務法沒有修正財政紀律38條之一也沒有去修正它我的剛剛提到的就是中央請客地方買單的形象一定要遏止它所以我的提案裡面就想得非常清楚只要任何的政策增加支出的一定要說明來源中央立法地方買單的情況要完全遏止"},{"start":3787.997,"end":3788.438,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3808.597,"end":3821.262,"text":"維護財政機率以後只要任何財這個中央要減稅或者是增加這個薪資加薪等等的這些的錢統統由中央政府來買單。謝謝。好。謝謝。謝謝這個賴自寶賴委員。我們來繼續請羅昭偉最後一位。好。來。"},{"start":3832.577,"end":3859.423,"text":"謝謝主席今天提到《財政收支劃分法》其實25年以來就是很簡單的情況中央集權地方沒權中央有錢地方沒錢說穿了就是分配不公那得到權力的人當然是說最好不要修啦因為每個人都要去拜託中央"},{"start":3860.744,"end":3862.865,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3890.356,"end":3917.558,"text":"都是偏差、偏薄我們人均、新北市所受到的補助遠遠大概是敬佩莫作這個對新北市所有的民眾來講是不公平的有很多的不公不義希望在今天財政部長也上任了我們真的要"},{"start":3918.578,"end":3947.119,"text":"好好將心比心我們應該好好地善待地方所有22個包括六都跟縣市其實中央跟地方的關係是夥伴的關係不是對立的關係也不是一定要一個拜託而是應該要把錢花在刀口上我們都知道這幾年"},{"start":3948.542,"end":3973.722,"text":"國家的稅收都是超徵錢很多啊但是也請財政部特別顧慮到台灣現在的貧富懸殊越來越大所以本席主張這一次我有提案有修正版本但是最主要的方向還是希望把柄做大"},{"start":3975.199,"end":4001.784,"text":"最起碼要高於過去的比例當然資料都是有不同的資料、版本但過去的版本就是大概中央集權大概有7成多地方分不到大概3成我們希望能改變這個局勢讓地方權多一點"},{"start":4002.904,"end":4028.405,"text":"前多一點因為必須要直接對民眾來負責所以本席政程國民黨黨團所提出的版本大概會增加5777億然後由地方大家好好坐下來來看看怎麼協調多多來爭取中央把權力下放給地方直接"},{"start":4029.688,"end":4031.169,"text":"為民眾做最好的服務。」謝謝"},{"start":4047.915,"end":4067.559,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會審查台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團以及各委員分別擬具的財政收支劃分法相關條文修正草案等14案本人呈邀列席自感榮幸僅說明如下進行指教第一個部分"},{"start":4068.052,"end":4077.202,"text":"中央與地方的財政概況是近年來中央政府總預算的稅入稅出連續剩餘並計特別預算執行結果則逾處復健其中112年度的總預算並計特別預算後整體的預算認為差短"},{"start":4085.993,"end":4095.586,"text":"至於地方財政透過統籌稅款以及一般性的補助款益助,整體地方稅收的剩餘由105年度的41億元成長到111年度的463億元已經有顯著的改善。"},{"start":4103.456,"end":4131.753,"text":"對於各級政府稅客收入的劃分。稅客收入劃分,它包含了中央和地方財源的垂直分配以及各地方政府間的水平分配。那麼應考量的因素有下面。第一個在垂直分配的部分要通盤審視中央和地方市權劃分以及近年整體的財政概況除了要適度維持中央財政的韌性之外並且應該要兼顧地方的財政需求"},{"start":4132.533,"end":4146.481,"text":"第2個在水平分配的部分必須要考量強化財政努力兼顧基本建設的需求以及發揮均衡區域發展等功能而且必須要廣泛的徵詢以及收集各界的意見"},{"start":4147.601,"end":4173.337,"text":"對於各委員提案的言析意見首先就中央釋出財源的規模部分各提案涉及增加中央釋出財源者即有國民黨、黨團等10案增加釋出的財源介於333億到5777億元之間如果中央大幅釋出財源那恐怕會影響到國防、社會福利等業務的推動"},{"start":4174.077,"end":4201.785,"text":"也將排擠到對地方政府的補助在稅收直接分層這個部分各提案涉及到調整稅收直接分層部分既有民眾黨團提案等7案鑒於我國各地的治安環境以及公山發展條件並不一致所以稅源的分布並不均勻這個情況非常的顯著如果我們擴大稅收直接分層的這個財源恐怕會拉大地方財政的一個差距"},{"start":4203.376,"end":4223.992,"text":"在水平分配的部分,國民黨黨團提案分配公式以人口指標為主,容易導致人口數比較多的縣市,獲配數顯著會優於其他同級的一個縣市。第二,有關民眾黨黨團林委還有林委員思銘等20人以及洪委員等22人的提案,"},{"start":4224.712,"end":4249.446,"text":"主要是採劃依直轄市及縣市分配基礎並優先彌補基準財政收支差短,雖然具有調計營需的效果,但是外界所期待分配公式的指標還要再強化有關財政努力等相關的指標。至於籌組委員會擬定統籌稅款分配辦法以及特別統籌稅款比例有6%,"},{"start":4250.667,"end":4269.594,"text":"降到2%等部分,為了維持財政穩定並且適時支應地方政府緊急及重大事項所需要的經費,這個部分需要審慎的研議。第三個,陳委員昌明等17人以及賴委員瑞榮等16人以及蔡委員易宇等16人的提案,"},{"start":4270.194,"end":4281.24,"text":"有關統籌稅款的分配公式要徵定高污染產業的貢獻等分配指標這一節將會適時徵詢地方政府意見後我們會訂定明確的指標有關徵列農業發展地區以及國土保育區應優先補足基本財政需要這個規定為了落實對財政落實的地方政府的照顧我們會審慎的原議另外對於賴委員、世保等29人的提案"},{"start":4300.289,"end":4317.207,"text":"有關所得稅提撥20%作為補充財源並參酌人口及合理人均稅出等因素分配一節以採劃一的基礎而不宜過度強調人口的因素對於特定區域的扶植可以透過補助的制度來辦理。"},{"start":4318.388,"end":4343.865,"text":"至於其他的部分,林委員思銘等20人及洪委員孟楷等22人提案有關每徵涉一個直轄市徵撥所得稅10%納入統籌稅款這個部分,鑒於地方財源的分配應該要對應市權的歸屬。如果明定新徵一個直轄市,中央就需要增加四出1800億元,那麼恐怕會影響到中央財政的穩健。"},{"start":4345.558,"end":4368.62,"text":"第二個,紅委員孟楷等22人提案有關徵定直轄市應參酌各區域城鄉差距等因素,分配所轄各該區一節。依照地方制度法的規定,直轄市下面的區不是獨立的地方財政層級,尚無法課徵稅捐以及參與普通統籌分配稅款的分配。"},{"start":4369.341,"end":4389.539,"text":"第三個有關吳立華、吳委員立華等17人的提案將直轄市、園民區納入全國財政收支系統一節根據地方制度法的規定園民區自治事項未包含稅捐及公共債務而且園民區實施自治所需要的財源是由直轄市設算補助"},{"start":4391.38,"end":4414.02,"text":"所以各級地方自治團體稅客收入劃分應該和事權的歸屬要並同的考量那麼由內政部審慎的評估循修正地方制度法的方式來推動第四個部分有關賴委員、世保等22人提案有關徵定中央制定或修訂涉及影響地方稅收的法律的時候"},{"start":4414.54,"end":4443.367,"text":"地方稅收的損失應該由中央補儲等規定一結查各機關制定或修正法律如果有減少收入的話均由業務相關主管機關一財化法第38條之一或財政紀律法第5條的規定要籌措彌補的財源如果未來中央制或修訂法律涉及地方稅收的減損可以拒於辦理所以沒有重複訂定的必要"},{"start":4445.95,"end":4459.669,"text":"簡於各級政府財政收支劃分牽涉到財政資源的重分配對各級政府財政的影響非常的重要至於為了維持中央財政的韌性並兼顧地方財政的需求"},{"start":4460.229,"end":4477.105,"text":"相關的研修作業已經積極地展開當中本部並已就地方政府所提的分配指標一議在做進一步的釐清當中我們會邀集地方政府協商做審慎的託處以上說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":4483.092,"end":4503.773,"text":"現在開始詢答每位初席委員是8加2,列席是5加1我們3點半截止發言登記本日會議委員若有相關修正動議請寄送財政委員會議事人員授卷以立以後後續的審查請第一位林德福委員質詢"},{"start":4511.943,"end":4514.605,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是請莊部長。請莊部長。我也好。部長你好。部長我請教齁一位前部長蘇建隆啊在任命的時候曾經表示說這個財化法、修法要有很大的協調空間齁那"},{"start":4536.738,"end":4557.934,"text":"以當時整個時空的背景來看是因為各地地方政府討論統籌分配稅款分配公事時都沒有統一的意見那請問部長站在你的立場你認為蘇前部長的看法有沒有道理"},{"start":4559.172,"end":4585.311,"text":"跟委員報告歷次行政院有提出版本但是都為什麼會沒有完成修法通過就是各地方政府有不同的意見因為我們知道各地方政府其實我們的各個自然環境公三發展條件不一所以各地方政府在提出分配的時候都會就他們各自有利的指標來做輸出我知道那要是大家都沒有共識那請問你有沒有其他另外的看法"},{"start":4586.552,"end":4604.95,"text":"這個部分我們現在正在努力的做也就是說財政部先請各地方政府對於有關提升財政自主還有公共建設的基本需求等等提出指標來那這個指標提出來以後它所涵蓋的內容是什麼要更具體更明確所以我們也在跟地方政府在進一步的釐清我請問部長"},{"start":4606.351,"end":4625.805,"text":"因您現在的觀點請問財劃法是不是一定要協調到統一的意見的版本財劃法修正草案才能成案是不是這樣子我想在這個地方政府的分配這個部分最起碼我們要把共識要凝聚起來如果沒有共識的話那這次要是有共識呢"},{"start":4626.445,"end":4637.947,"text":"如果這次有共識的話,我們在這個分配的部分就能夠得到一個很明確的公式,那我覺得這個就可以往前推進做修法的動作,是。如果是的話,那你認為財政部短期內"},{"start":4639.522,"end":4661.139,"text":"有提出修法的機會嗎?你們?這個部分我們一直在努力比如說我們已經提出修法的原則規劃修法的原則另外在地方政府的部分我們請他們已經提供了相關的指標那目前這個指標來其實還有很大的一個差距所以我們會進一步的釐清然後把指標這個這個之間的差距把它盡量縮小對"},{"start":4662.216,"end":4679.998,"text":"那你認為以現在來看行政銀行財政部你們有沒有修法的決心呢?有沒有?我們已經在推展當中我們剛剛在報告也是積極的在展開當中是部長因為媒體報導對於你回應外界財化法修法指出包含"},{"start":4681.139,"end":4709.798,"text":"為地方增加財源等六大修法的原則。學者一時認為說從此可以看出中央政府仍是極權跟極權的心態不願意放權。我請問部長對於學者認為你回應訴求財化法修正的內容是中央極權跟極權的心態你認為是不是事實?"},{"start":4710.738,"end":4727.269,"text":"不是這樣的事實。那如果不是事實但財政部又沒有積極主動修法的決心那請問部長你又如何能夠讓各界來信服呢?跟委員報告財劃法雖然沒有修正"},{"start":4727.709,"end":4746.264,"text":"但是透過中央統籌分配稅款還有一般性的補助款以及專案的補助其實對於地方的財政的益助已經有相當大的一個成長我瞭解啊但問題是剛剛有委員提出來你像那個陳超平啊他提的苗栗對不對他一年貢獻多少結果"},{"start":4747.085,"end":4773.478,"text":"他補助了多少那個落差很大那你說其他嘉義啦齁其他地方他那個本來他就收的很少但是補助很多那個落差讓人家一看就知道這個好像是有黨派之分餒是不是委員您說的這個就涉及到所謂的水平的一個分配所以這個水平的分配的分析我們認為說指標上要更能夠公平部長"},{"start":4774.659,"end":4783.829,"text":"攸關地方財源統籌分配稅款文化財政收支劃分法已經25年沒有修改,歷經政黨輪替政權"},{"start":4787.763,"end":4811.236,"text":"再加上多了4個城市升格為直轄市稅收上也有極大的變化那事實上應該有修法的必要性今天啊財委會排審有媒體報導依照現在修正的版本重新調整稅收分配恐怕中央要釋出高達6400億元的這個作為統籌分配款"},{"start":4816.901,"end":4823.711,"text":"請問部長不須了解站在財政部的立場對於財劃法你認為有沒有必要和"},{"start":4825.014,"end":4850.084,"text":"有沒有必要性和急迫性?有沒有?委員報告當然因為這麼長的時間沒有修地方跟財政中央跟地方的財政情勢有變更那另外就是這麼長時間以來大家也都感覺到這個分配的公式尤其這個我們知道分配直轄市就直接先分走61%縣市然後在鄉鎮這樣分這個分配的方式事實上在造成剛剛也就陳超明委員所提到的"},{"start":4850.564,"end":4851.724,"text":"提出的委員版中央釋出的稅收分配比例給地方到底有沒有調整的空間啊?"},{"start":4874.19,"end":4891.422,"text":"所以我們在修法的原則裡面就有一個提升財政自主這個部分就會有擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模但是在擴大這個規模的時候同時要考慮第一個要考慮到地方財政的需要但是也要考慮中央的財政的一個韌性這個部分也要考慮"},{"start":4892.023,"end":4906.145,"text":"並考慮因為中央所要面對的特別的事權包括有國防還有社福支出、重大的公共建設以及國際政經情勢的變化的時候中央必須要有財政的韌性來做應對所以中央的財政韌性也是很重要的"},{"start":4906.966,"end":4932.337,"text":"媒體報導對於財化法修正財政部表示還要彙整地方的意見並要以六大原則包含提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎然後調劑財政的營需保障既有的財源以及精進分配機制及地方財源不減等這些修法那部長因為賴清德從總統"},{"start":4934.983,"end":4956.022,"text":"在院長任內、總統在院長任內支持修正財劃法給地方更多的經費那地方縣市首長也多半認為財劃法早就該修是當務之急那請問部長從賴院長到賴副總統到今天上任的賴總統"},{"start":4957.623,"end":4976.022,"text":"在財化法、修法的立場你認為他應該言行一致、積極來推動修法還是換了個位置也要換了個腦袋的思維來判斷?你的看法呢?委員這個部分我們其實財政部我們剛剛報告已經在積極展開相關的一些作業當中"},{"start":4977.043,"end":4996.074,"text":"已經提過就是我們對地方政府的分配的指標就是剛剛提的修法原則裡面劃一分配基礎也就是未來直轄市跟縣市要分配的基礎是一致那目前是根本就先把它分成三大塊然後再來做分配所以這個部分的分配基礎事實上會要做討論的我希望要進擊啦因為要把那個相關的細節可以做更明確因為整個社會情勢跟經濟情勢發展都會有一些變化部長"},{"start":5002.478,"end":5025.242,"text":"因為草原對財化法修法的建言已經由來已久但財政部一貫的說法不是以地方意見整合必須有共識不然就是用財政分配法制面公平的原則來框架那影射修法有難度那請問部長財政部這樣的說法"},{"start":5029.124,"end":5056.902,"text":"你認為有積極參與推動修法的誠意嗎?財政部的說法也是一個事實但是目前來說我們在積極展開相關的作業當中民進黨政府執政從賴清德擔任院長到現在賴總統上任已經好幾年了地方意見彙整不應該沒有定論財政分配法制面也不應該"},{"start":5058.783,"end":5083.477,"text":"說沒有具體的內容我請問部長中央政府這個會期有沒有辦法提出對岸的版本參與討論如果再不提出真的會讓外界被貼上世衛素餐的一個標籤了你認為呢委員不會有世衛素餐這樣的一個情形"},{"start":5084.684,"end":5104.538,"text":"臺法法證實沒有修,中央對地方的財政挹注也一直逐年在增加。以113年跟105年來相較的話,已經都增加了兩千多億。所以臺法法雖然沒有修,但是中央對地方政府的財政挹注是一直是都在做的,而且逐年在增加的。"},{"start":5104.918,"end":5129.789,"text":"部長上個禮拜財政部公布最新的國債中平均每人負債27.4萬元創歷史的新高所以說又讓很多立委專注在這個議題部長你的回應是短期融資在國庫的調度上是有必要的所以短期債務會增加但會盡快來還債那我請問部長"},{"start":5133.782,"end":5140.949,"text":"現在財劃法在償還中央債務與地方財政分配上有沒有調整的空間?"},{"start":5142.711,"end":5165.443,"text":"我們在我們的國債中是指中央的債務這中央的債務那為什麼會上個禮拜是27.4萬是因為第一季的時候我們必須要支付軍公教的年終獎金地方的補助款要出去還有增加台電的1000億元的一個增值所以這個部分大額的金額出去以至於國債中它會往上跳那國債中是長債加上短債"},{"start":5168.965,"end":5179.589,"text":"那這個部分短債的部分我們會很盡快的去還掉也就是這是國庫資金調度的一個短期的一個現象所以我們在17號又還了481這當時都是在我們的規劃當中那5月6月大額的稅款進來以後我們也會積極的按照年度的預算去還掉1150億元這個部分事實上我們是在債務的控管上是非常的積極而且謹守財政紀律"},{"start":5193.692,"end":5205.077,"text":"最後就是部長如果按照我們目前委員的修法版本你認為對中央債務、地方財政上會發生什麼變動或影響?"},{"start":5209.22,"end":5235.453,"text":"當然這個資源的一個重新分配對各級政府的財政當然會有一些影響所以這部分我們必須要審慎我是認為該修25年了該修還是要修因為地方苦哈哈的啦講實在話那中央集權又集權那這個分配都是有點看顏色在分配"},{"start":5236.133,"end":5249.097,"text":"我講這個分配都是按照公式在分配所以說我們地方政府就是一直在這個哀哀叫我是希望最短的期間你們要提出版本以上謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝下一位質詢請吳秉瑞吳委員主席麻煩請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":5266.843,"end":5279.706,"text":"委員好部長早剛剛我在那邊坐著聽各位的各個版本的這個修法的那個說明感覺上好像一群人圍著你要債問題是又不是你欠他們這是當家困難很多的指標"},{"start":5291.038,"end":5314.229,"text":"不可以用單一的我舉個例子你剛剛講到說現在六都直轄市大概分配到60幾%的統籌分配稅款其他的是普通的縣市可是你知道嗎直轄市的總人口數佔全國人口數的70幾%所以你如果完全照人口數來分配那這樣地方窮的縣市就更窮了"},{"start":5315.014,"end":5338.828,"text":"那六都分配的就更多了那一個說法就是把柄做大把柄做大就是垂直分配的問題垂直分配又遇到很多問題啊很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢我就一個例子蓋高速公路蓋什麼機場這哪裡有需要地方政府花錢但是中央政府得出這條錢"},{"start":5341.616,"end":5352.346,"text":"新北市、台北市在蓋捷運其他很多的職項是在蓋捷運中央也都要出很大一筆的補助款所以不是光用想像說拿一個數據來說我這個縣市"},{"start":5355.869,"end":5378.076,"text":"十幾年來我繳了多少稅那我只有分配到多少不夠我跟你說他分配的遠遠就早就都超過他該拿的苗栗縣得要反省的是他為什麼以前人事腐爛去花那麼多奇奇怪怪的錢使他的財政困難不然以前也沒有一個公司特別刁難苗栗縣為什麼苗栗縣的財政狀況會特別的不好呢難道是你的公司裡面有講說苗栗縣就是特別要少分嗎"},{"start":5385.165,"end":5396.888,"text":"恐怕不是這樣所以第一個問題實際要了解說你個人認為在垂直分配上中央有可能可以釋出的這個稅款的比例講比例因為今天不是講獎金額因為獎金額是隨著每一年稅收的狀況不一樣而會有差別你認為中央能夠再釋出的財源大概是會有哪一些範圍"},{"start":5414.903,"end":5435.518,"text":"跟委員報告第一個中央要釋出財源之前我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好因為中央要釋出的時候要考慮地方的一個需求所以它的基本財政收支差短我們要能夠先把它彌補所以這個就是你要先分配怎麼樣分配講以後再來看怎麼樣中央釋出多少如果以今天我們的一個統計來看的話"},{"start":5437.139,"end":5466.056,"text":"中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款加上計劃型補助款的話中央已經釋出了41.4%也就是說這樣全部的收入裡面中央是58.9%地方是41.1%但是剛剛他們不是這樣講喔他剛剛講說你中央75%地方25%你們都在勒死他們的你錢都拿到中央你在集權集錢啦那個是只有統籌分配稅款但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計劃型補助款事實上是遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠遠"},{"start":5466.476,"end":5484.944,"text":"所以你要講清楚因為今天來這邊講的人我不敢說他講的一定是謊話但是都講對自己有利的話我在這裡20年啦20年來每一屆都在提這個財化法的沒有一屆可以完成無論是哪一個黨執政"},{"start":5486.565,"end":5503.696,"text":"的原因就是在這裡我跟楊耀、澎湖的立委我的好朋友聊天他跟我說我問他說你為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長他跟我講說不要開玩笑了我們澎湖的自有財源一年才6億當那個縣長跟我當立委"},{"start":5509.366,"end":5538.22,"text":"立委可以跟中央要的補助款去地方反而他認為這樣對他自己的澎湖要更有幫助這是他的想法所以你想想看一個澎湖縣假設他說的差不多自由財源才6億他一年光是公教人員這些的薪水他絕對就付不起啦這基本的開銷一個縣政府至少要幾十億上百億才有辦法嘛所以"},{"start":5539.502,"end":5562.424,"text":"你一個很大的困難就是說你的這個地方政府雖然是夥伴關係但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大也有的地方政府經過他的努力比如說剛剛陳委員講的他們金門因為現在這經久公司的關係他認為他是多角的可是金門縣政府的社會福利"},{"start":5563.885,"end":5582.532,"text":"就金門憲民的社會福利現在據統計起來已經是全台灣地區最好的所以還有好多台灣人要簽戶口去金門希望當金門憲民可是還有一些門檻你要有一些門檻才有辦法完成我是舉這樣子的例子說每一個縣市的差距非常的大那你這個水平的這個調查"},{"start":5587.81,"end":5596.42,"text":"第1個要先完成調查嘛調查之後才能跟大家來談談說大家要用什麼樣的公職分配你這個調查要調查多久"},{"start":5597.641,"end":5623.558,"text":"調查的部分已經回來了但是差距很大每個地方政府所提都是對他自己有利的來做這個指標然後第二個這指標內容的詳細的定義是什麼也要釐清所以這個部分我們第一個看到的差距是很大第二個對於各個指標內容的詳細的情形已經要有一個具體的而且要有一個通用性的那你工作的反所以這個部分已經都一直在進一步的釐清當中對那這個要趕快去進行因為這個已經逼到"},{"start":5628.902,"end":5652.944,"text":"這個時間上你很急迫捏。我跟你講如果你行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本結果都被在野黨或是這個立委個別的版本拿出來然後在這個地方現在因為這樣的立法院這樣的環境他一給你通過結果你將來會自然而然行喔。你得考慮到這個事情了所以你那個時間你得把握啊。"},{"start":5655.176,"end":5656.156,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5672.024,"end":5693.403,"text":"剛剛我們這個主席有講啊新北市現在400多萬人口捏結果我們的統籌分配稅款總數還比台北市還不足那這個當然以我們的了解是有歷史因素早年統籌分配稅款的分配是台北市、台灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級的地方政府做分配"},{"start":5694.364,"end":5720.116,"text":"後來因為精神所以各個縣市才分配的比例才調整可是在調整的時候台北市跟高雄市都不讓你調啊他們都要盡量維持所以上一次在民國88年就是1999年的修法在非常痛苦的情況之下台北市、高雄市才擠出讓出一點點然後還是中央把柄做大才有辦法修的那我現在問如果這個指標"},{"start":5721.397,"end":5735.44,"text":"台北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎?來分配嗎?還是那句老話老是台北市老是講我們是首都所以我們就要特別好那是當年台北市的立委講的話那今年你辦得到嗎?我覺得這是非常大的考驗台北市的立委可能只有8個但是聲量很大、音量很大"},{"start":5747.537,"end":5764.753,"text":"跟委員報告所以我們這裡第一個要劃一分配的機率就直轄是跟縣市的分配基礎要一致另外分配的一個精進的一個分配機制要更細一點不是只有人口數那如果你的意思是這樣呢我當然知道人口數如果算人口數對新北市是最好啊那我的意思說"},{"start":5765.373,"end":5792.365,"text":"你能夠讓台北市不要再認為說他必須要優後獨厚於其他的縣市嗎這是你要考驗你的地方所以這個大家都要加油今天如果都沒有共識的狀況之下就要來弄這個東西弄出來的東西是自然難行的這一點我們很欽佩羅昭偉他自己也瞭解這個狀況所以他們一直希望你趕快整合能夠提出行政院版本這一點我們是支持的好不好加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":5800.953,"end":5826.136,"text":"我們不用急啦我會給大家很多的時間甚至我剛剛跟秘書人員討論我們可能也需要的話也可以開公聽會來聽聽22縣市的聲音找到一個好的方法啦把餅做大嘛因為這個不是說一定誰贏誰輸是大家都要贏所以希望說大家和諧理性的方式來進行接著下一位請陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":5832.712,"end":5859.403,"text":"請莊部還有莊部長請莊部長還有陳署長委員好部長齁上個月4月1號這個財政委員會之後本席有提出財務法有關燕酒稅變革剛剛在提案說明的時候也說了齁希望財政部按照過往我們行政院的立場齁就是把金馬地區所爭的80%的燕酒稅給我們金馬地區使用那時候有承諾帶回去研究啦那研究的結果是怎樣的"},{"start":5861.038,"end":5874.751,"text":"委員您上次提到就是說這樣的意見我們會在討論分配的時候一併討論放分配進一併去考慮進去那我針對我們這一條我特別問的你們有回去研究嗎我們會一併的研究啊不會只對單一一條來做討論這樣子喔您看喔"},{"start":5877.653,"end":5895.769,"text":"今天你們的報告裏面有給的答案是納入考量納入考量我給你們看一下這個民國90我提的那個福建省的金門跟連江兩縣徵期收入減除1%作為基徵及查緝經費後支80%分配給各蓋縣"},{"start":5899.052,"end":5920.204,"text":"其實當然給你們中央來分配那這個東西講過我一直一再的提剛剛在提案說明也說了這個並不是這個並不是說就是說要跟你們要更多是把你們就是給我們多拿的還給我們這菸酒公賣跟這個菸酒稅法以後的這個不一樣你看本期所提的這個草案內容在這裡"},{"start":5923.585,"end":5945.995,"text":"實際上如果按照本期所提的這個修法事實上也是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本當然還有等一下我們看到財政部也是一直都這樣主張只是20多年來都沒有修的這個情況下事實上跟現在的制度今天的這個制度比比較的話事實上我們也只有多增加12億元啦您看到嗎以112年時增數421計算嘛對吧那現在我們這個齁上一頁"},{"start":5950.737,"end":5954.84,"text":"一百一十二年的這個時增數計算原來是乘以19等於6億嘛那如果中央還是保有這個325億統籌那這個扣掉的巴士只有多增加12億啦這個事實上對整體的影響是是蠻少的我想這一點您請來特別的幫我們"},{"start":5968.65,"end":5988.961,"text":"關注一下,沒錯嗎?沒錯,我想這個因為菸酒專賣制度改制以後對於金馬這邊的一個影響所以目前在財務法已經明定對於這個我們在算基準財政收支差短的時候這個菸酒金門現在他們所收的這個菸酒稅是不會納入收入額度這個部分已經特別考量了"},{"start":5989.461,"end":6010.243,"text":"至於委員所提的這個建議,我們會一併納入研究卡裡。對,而且我剛剛有提到很多自治事項,包括自來水,包括大橋的圍管,這些其他縣市都是各個縣市政府在出錢的,我們金門縣都自己出啦。那您知道我們包括比如說金門醫院這個部立的,金門大學這個國立的,教育部的,部立院衛生福利部的,"},{"start":6010.823,"end":6030.684,"text":"以及金門醫院的護士留任獎金也是我們在出金門大學學生在那邊讀書的相關一些費用也是我們在出所以我們給中央的也是應該也不會少於這些錢這個部分請你特別拿我考量因為只要在金門我們都說不管怎麼樣都是一家人那您看一下歷年來藍綠執政的時候"},{"start":6033.217,"end":6034.818,"text":"條解比例101年民國92年是財政部林部長提的減徵1%分配8%各該縣"},{"start":6049.31,"end":6073.671,"text":"財政委員會第5屆的立法院也是在我們這個委員會所提出的委員會你們的報告裡頭這個是財政部林全部長的報告跟本席提案文字是一致的這個是林全部長你看民國96年剛剛這個96年財政部長是何志清你看他所提出來也在立法院這是第6屆立法院這個怎麼樣的你們的修法方向跟我今天所提的"},{"start":6076.412,"end":6097.623,"text":"80%分配給我們也不是只有101年不管是藍綠執政你們行政院所提的4次的修法版本都跟我今天提出的修法版本是一致的包括今天不管國民黨團、民眾黨團也是一致的所以說你這個分配比例要是整體分配機制研議結果鑿定這個應該也不用講得那麼"},{"start":6101.239,"end":6121.812,"text":"保守,過去20年來不分藍綠,現在不分政黨,應該不分藍綠,都是有這個立場,所以應該是支持吧?是的,是。支持的,那這個修法這一條應該...一起來研議嘛,放大陸研議。我們要修法支持,所以我們今天跟您說,不是要跟你爭取額外的,所以說要你們落實承諾,沒問題啦。"},{"start":6125.151,"end":6152.728,"text":"報告就是我們剛剛說我們會委員的意見以及歷年其實跟原來的版本都一樣不管藍綠的行政院院長不管國民黨團今年的國民黨民眾黨我們都是按照這個原來的提案嘛只是說一直沒有修這個財劃法這是比較小的問題啦如果說可以的話要跟我們多支持我們就看一下如果各位在稅收分配比例上可以的話我們會一併那種願意國庫署早上有說本席所提的是要中央支出300多億如果按照那個解釋我也是可以接受多分一點我也是非常願意的陳署長"},{"start":6154.329,"end":6156.835,"text":"那我們接著請這個主席、副主席長謝謝,謝謝部長謝謝,謝謝委員部長請回"},{"start":6166.73,"end":6189.676,"text":"陳副主席長,你上回有去金門開會嘛,對吧?就是那時候張景森政委。我帶我回來主持會,張景森政委主持的嘛。你那時候有表示針對我們地方所提出來的財力集市分級的部分,那時候我們提出一些,包括自來水廠。自來水廠的話,也叫我們出錢齁。然後現在財政部還要跟我們要,這個,叫我們墊啦齁。"},{"start":6191.517,"end":6191.917,"text":"財政部長財政部長"},{"start":6208.229,"end":6224.865,"text":"副主席長您上次有說了根據媒體報導主計總署陳慧娟副主長表示同意離島具有特殊性要審慎進行研議就是有關這個財力集市分級我們現在是第幾級目前是第三級那我們是要求降到第五級對吧"},{"start":6226.796,"end":6246.892,"text":"對,那你上次不是說要進行研議嗎?我們有在研議,因為基本上這個財力分歧是地方制度法69條要均衡發展所以基本上我們就是對地方政府是按自有財源的比例,就是一個公式來算我都知道,這些我們都知道,但是你上次已經在政委主持的會議說要研議了,研議的進度怎麼樣?"},{"start":6248.073,"end":6269.83,"text":"基本上就是我們必須找出金門跟其他地方這種不同的這個特殊性,所以基本上...不同的特殊性就是現在越來越窮啊因為窮,地方政府都說會窮,他們都說很窮嘛而且我們的窮心我們還幫助中央政府很多啊或者是主計總署這邊在協助說一些不應該我們負擔的部分,比如說自來水,比如說大橋"},{"start":6271.652,"end":6288.847,"text":"其他縣市政府都是中央在負擔的,金門縣自己在負擔的這個部分,我們還要借錢給經濟部,我們跟財政部借錢給經濟部用,經濟部兩年後才還我們中間的利息還有金門縣政府來出,那這個是不是比較特殊,有沒有一個縣市這樣做?"},{"start":6290.508,"end":6318.225,"text":"的確我們就是從剛委員所提的就是說屬於比較民生的部分或者是說重大的交通建設那如果說在其他地方政府是由中央來負擔的那個部分那這個部分我們就是目前就在研議基本是由哪一部分是屬於這個就這個民生動水啊這個大橋啊其他縣市都中央在負擔叫我們自己負擔啊那這個部分就跟其他縣市很不一樣"},{"start":6319.145,"end":6324.979,"text":"所以我們的集市是不是要考慮調整?什麼時候研議出來?我們可能還需要一點時間齁。多久?沒關係,給你時間,多久?"},{"start":6327.526,"end":6338.557,"text":"你給我壓個時間就可以了。可以給我們半年的時間嗎?為什麼研議的東西要半年啊?因為這個問題,半年後你可能又升官了。因為這個財力集資會聯動到其他的地方政府,所以影響的層面比較廣。那為什麼需要半年?現在是520啦齁。"},{"start":6351.049,"end":6360.456,"text":"財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄"},{"start":6379.429,"end":6392.959,"text":"三個月給我們時間提出一個方向提出一個方向,要提出一個完整的,三個月很久喔要給我一個完整的答案喔提出一個方向,努力的方向不是努力的方向,要給我一個答案好不好好,謝謝委員,謝謝現在執行請賴世保、賴委員"},{"start":6414.891,"end":6419.414,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長請莊部長委員好你好我看到你剛才不斷的一直重複強調說給地方政府的錢越來越多可是最新的資料你的統存分稅款就7525啊"},{"start":6442.113,"end":6444.834,"text":"那我們1999年是6040啊這個差這不管你怎麼講這是數字在這裡啊就是你給給給問題就是給的結果你拿75啊還是頭重腳輕啊這個政府這個國家會辛苦啊因為頭重照在你手上地方政府老實講你們很多的事情也是地方政府幫你們做啊比如說打疫苗"},{"start":6471.311,"end":6492.268,"text":"在你的衛福部那個前年是撥到這個衛生局讓你地方政府的衛生局啊你何不乾脆給他你們的新聞稿你們有看得奇怪認真講起來的話中央部會有的部會地方都有啊除了國防外交陸委會沒有以外都有啊其他都沒有啊"},{"start":6494.798,"end":6502.425,"text":"每一個縣市都有啊財政局、財政部、經濟局他們慘罷局、經濟部慘罷局對應的都有啊除了國安這一塊沒有以外你何必扛那麼大呢被人罵得要死一下來講的話請問可不可以回到1999年6040可不可以"},{"start":6516.368,"end":6517.229,"text":"地方也懲戒很多啦!"},{"start":6533.088,"end":6561.747,"text":"中央會透過補助的方式給地方政府所以在精審的時候省的這個部分是由中央來承接了所以這個部分是有受調整那至於未來中央統籌分配稅款的75、25比例這個部分當然是看中央統籌分配稅款是這樣但是對地方政府的挹注我已經說過包含一般性補助款跟專案性補助款事實上比起來已經是接近是60比40了沒有啦那65對35了早上我們才差的了也是只能少了5%啦"},{"start":6564.088,"end":6584.513,"text":"65對35啦!還是很多喔!5%還是很多喔!請問你財政部有沒有提出一個財範法的版本有沒有?有沒有在研究有沒有?有在展開但是目前來說沒有版本因為第一個我們要先把這個水平分配的部分把它分配好整個部長你是刁難的話啦!"},{"start":6587.414,"end":6615.414,"text":"水平你就知道這裏面矛盾在水平嘛對嘛,就是矛盾在水平所以先把它有一個公式不是,你們我們立法院協調我們立委門嚴寬委員一定要替台中市講話羅明才委員一定要替新北市講話賴思鵬一定要替台北市講話水平怎麼擺得平呢要先給錢下來請問你現在有沒有公式你告訴我有沒有公式目前沒有沒有公式嘛就完全看你高興才給"},{"start":6616.295,"end":6633.848,"text":"你不是說要發展一個公式嗎?你剛才一直講有公式有公式,怎麼現在又沒有了呢?我們是講水平分配的這個公式啊。水平分配,就是地方政府之間水平分配的公式,要有一個明確的公式來做分配,而這個公式的相關目標要非常明確。現在你怎麼分配啊?就隨便?"},{"start":6637.691,"end":6638.853,"text":"有公式啊!那一般性補助款也有公式啊!但是大家都..."},{"start":6655.312,"end":6683.17,"text":"現行它有公式但是各位委員也好地方政府也好都覺得這個公式目前來說有不均的情況那所以才會提出很多意見認為要修財劃法那現在我們必須要對這個分別提一個本本把公式變成法令可以嗎?對所以我們現在在進行就是這件事什麼時候可以出來?我們這個部分第一個已經跟地方什麼時候可以出來?什麼時候可以出來要看共識什麼時候能夠"},{"start":6684.091,"end":6684.872,"text":"幾個月可以嗎?比較重要的應該是"},{"start":6704.341,"end":6731.131,"text":"中央先割一塊肉給地方啦怎麼分配那另外的事情他們就分配啦對不對垂直分配比較重要啦你捨不得割肉給地方中央如果先割一塊肉先給地方去分配那會負者越負貧者反而沒有得到怎麼會呢怎麼會因為現在譬如說現在的分配公司會有這樣的一個情形所以並不適合這樣做那你剛才已經講了你可以用一般計畫"},{"start":6732.131,"end":6755.446,"text":"或者是草案記錄補回來啊 這都可以補啊 對不對所以這個東西啊 這非常不負責任啊我們都已經積極在展開這頁當中了 是我相信這個不需要你的卓院長來要求你吧到時候我們總是詢問卓院長他什麼時候可以提出來 他給一審定下你馬上就有 我們就看到那個屯房稅2.0"},{"start":6758.187,"end":6779.229,"text":"我們這裡十幾個版本你理都不理啊這個那個這個一堆理由結果呢賴清德選舉的時候一聲鈴響你馬上就出來了馬上就通過了到底到底就是部長你不能這樣做啊財政部長要有點健胖有點有點自己的一個主張啊我們確實在我們目前已經在作業了啊我們已經在作業了啊"},{"start":6781.738,"end":6810.435,"text":"我相信啊今天如果總統都要告訴你的話你下個禮拜就出來了我保證我跟你保證如果你都出來那如果地方政府如果都沒給他意見的話我跟你保證他要求的話一個禮拜以內就出來就是沒關係我們總組現在要求左院長現在地方政府其實地方大家都很憤怒就是中央最可惡的地方就在於經常是我得陣都是你啊"},{"start":6812.133,"end":6826.678,"text":"你應得掌聲啊,目前的都是地方政府啊最值得里長加給7.5萬,就是如此啊然後我們就有些委員說這個稅減少那個稅減少你們減少結果這個錢通通是地方政府在買單因為啊怎麼沒有啊里長7.5萬就是啊就是啊怎麼不是啊所以我的我們這邊調整的話稅法裡面都必須要彌補財源給他的"},{"start":6842.688,"end":6843.688,"text":"現在來講我再給你看一個表啦你們說每一年的統總分稅款都增加增加106年你是減少0.6%捏109年減少3.3%地方政府他們的預算都編好了結果你突然減少了怎麼辦捏"},{"start":6867.31,"end":6888.258,"text":"一百零六年減少一百零六年減少其他你增加問題這幾年怎麼辦呢你以後會不會再產生這種情況呢這個減少部分是因為稅收短收了嘛所以就會減少所以我們在編預算的時候第一個就是說我們今年的比如說一一四年編好預算以後我們就會先通知告訴各地方政府預支會有多少"},{"start":6888.738,"end":6912.521,"text":"收入,如果實際上沒有時增數,沒有那麼多的話,那確實就會減少。那怎麼辦?地方政府怎麼辦呢?預算編好了,結果你現在錢來源少了怎麼辦呢?對啊,那中央政府也是編好了,錢也少了,一樣啊。這個部長你現在喔,我覺得對你越來越失望了,就是這麼重要的財奧啊,到現在為止,既然你心裡都沒有半點的"},{"start":6914.315,"end":6941.675,"text":"今天我們羅昭偉呢這個拿出勇氣拿出他的膽子來排這個這個排列是我們已經修了10幾年都修不過就是因為水平每一個立委大家的看法都不一樣這時候你但是你要版本嘛不是你說說說說怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣等等的我們在修這個啊這第一次我看到財政部這麼不負責任的我們每次修草案法都有財政部的版本結果你這次沒有啊"},{"start":6943.51,"end":6968.604,"text":"不能講一直是啊,你回應一下是啊,我跟委員報告我們已經在積極的作業之後修法原則也已經出來了那在公水平分配的部分也已經把相關的指標請地方政府表示所以我們一直在作業你有一句話叫歐隆西道啊哪裡說水平先想法跟我們想法完全不一樣剛好upside down剛好是完全的顛倒了要先割一塊肉出來李素德當初就割962億的地方"},{"start":6971.735,"end":6994.89,"text":"我都想問你怎麼不學學理數的可以聰明一點啊你說好我搞多少個地方給我擬保護品那你那會有事啊你終於就可以退掉啦你現在說我一定要等到大家都一致我就告訴你那一天不會來臨大家都滿意那一天不會來臨那一天不會來臨你知道嗎因為他如果同意的話等個幾萬八十知道嗎那一天不會來臨"},{"start":7000.168,"end":7013.282,"text":"要等到大家都有公示,那就沒收了我就告訴你這個法都不要修了,草案都不要修了但是我現在跟你講你不提沒關係我們一定要先把中央倒一塊樓下來給地方政府不公平啊,什麼事情都地方政府在做然後你權力這麼大抓在手上"},{"start":7025.295,"end":7051.902,"text":"讓地方政府出越幹亂來跟你要錢這東西要的都沒有尊嚴啦這個東西為了地方建設奇奇怪怪你說要建設什麼建設那個建設這個國安的問題當然總要來做但是太多都是地方政府在做包括這個剛講的你說長照你們要做長照長照也是通過地方衛生局在做的啊都是基本上地方在做的啊"},{"start":7053.586,"end":7080.922,"text":"我再強調一遍只有國防、外交、國安方面地方做不了要國家來做、中央來做這一部分真的中央要做其他都是給地方啦什麼時代了還抓那麼緊這東西你沒有下放錢沒有下放就代表集權跟集錢這個對在新政府還是一樣還是鐵板一塊我會聽這個事情的"},{"start":7089.642,"end":7103.69,"text":"謝謝現在質詢請嚴寬恆、嚴委員主席各位同仁主席我想邀請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":7111.55,"end":7136.287,"text":"委員好部長好部長恭喜你就任謝謝我們今天主要是審查財政收支劃分法財政部過去喊出六大修法原則第一個是提升財政自主劃一分配基礎調記財政營需保障既有財源精進分配機制"},{"start":7137.228,"end":7156.08,"text":"地方財源不減,但是這些都僅僅停滯在空泛的口號,欠缺實際的計算公式跟距離作法。」因為部長剛剛在回覆所有委員的質詢的時候都有提到說現在財政部才剛要開始要展開版本的作業"},{"start":7158.641,"end":7180.35,"text":"已經作業了已經作業了但是版本還沒有出來對不對所以我們現在還看不到看不到這個院版目前財政收支劃分法簡稱財劃法就是在40年的6月制定到現在這個部分在剛剛也有提到過去是6比4但是經審之後民國88年經審之後把這個"},{"start":7183.951,"end":7209.93,"text":"金省的過程當中的15%總收入的15%然後又納入中央所以變75比25現在變75中央越來越有錢那地方越來越窮那人口增加然後地方的財政困難那剛剛也有提到說所有的除了軍事國防之外也都是地方的機關不管是教育、衛生各個部都一樣都是地方的機關人是在"},{"start":7211.075,"end":7229.372,"text":"在做這樣子的一個服務所以其實對於我們現在的財化法我們版本裡面也有提到就是說要把總收入所得稅總收入的25%以及營業稅總收入減除依法提撥之"},{"start":7230.613,"end":7248.966,"text":"統一編號給獎獎金之後的全部收入的百分之百以及貨物稅的10%以113年度全國總收入15%的規模來計算中央至少要還給地方政府5100多億5100多億讓統籌稅款的規模從現在的3700多億能夠擴增到8900億請教部長你認同這15%還給地方政府的版本嗎?你認不認同?"},{"start":7260.964,"end":7289.226,"text":"委員沒有所謂的還給地方政府也就是說委員這15%可能是算經審前跟經審後的一個差距但是經審的時候把省政府原來做的一些事項以及包含他的負債都是中央承接了那至於地方政府去做原來省的業務的部分中央是給予補助的所以我們把事權事權跟錢其實要相對應是要相對應的我剛剛在聽你的答詢我都有聽到事實上"},{"start":7290.608,"end":7297.787,"text":"審政府就是地方政府,審跟直轄市的位階是同等的。但是後來審、經審以後他的相關職責都到中央來承接了。是。"},{"start":7298.808,"end":7320.127,"text":"所以我們更要說地方民眾現在是繳稅季我們現在辛辛苦苦把這些稅金交給中央政府那中央如何補助地方或者是分回主要有三大類統籌分配款、一般性補助款、計畫性補助款一般性補助款是縣市政府的稅收上繳中央之後中央再依財政裁劃法"},{"start":7321.028,"end":7340.72,"text":"公式計算比例配撥給地方政府,屬於地方政府的財源,應得的財源。台中市以台中市為例,每年上繳給中央的是1400億,過去4年累計將近6000億,但是中央補助地方每案的額度都不盡相同。我要再說一次,一年是1400億,那4年的話就是將近6000億。"},{"start":7345.503,"end":7368.817,"text":"分配給台中市的每年不到一千億。我想要請部長你做一個持平的說法。你認為這樣子對台中市是不是不公平?當然很多,像我們昭緯新北市、還有很多台北市的委員、很多各縣市、22縣市,沒有一個人覺得是公平。我們上繳的錢太多了。我們地方要做的事情太多了。但是錢都在中央。"},{"start":7370.12,"end":7392.872,"text":"所以持平的請部長你持平的講對台中市對其他縣市這樣子來講是不是不公平每一個區域的立委都會為他的區域來爭取我們這可以理解的爭取資源但是台灣每一個區域每一個縣市他的自然環境也好公山發展條件也不同那這個部分差距這麼大的情況下"},{"start":7393.932,"end":7419.434,"text":"財政收支劃分法就有一個要調劑營需的功能然後要促進區域之間的一個均衡的發展這個部分是要做到的那另外就是說在市權的部分中央所承擔的一個市權跟地方所承擔的市權跟錢之間的分配也要有關聯因為中央有很多事情是屬於中央在做的所以中央也需要一定的一個財政的一個能量跟財政的一個韌性所以大家都會覺得說自己的縣市"},{"start":7421.475,"end":7447.042,"text":"分配的不夠多。」我想這個部分我可以理解這也就是說我們在水平分配的時候必須要有一個很清楚很明確的指標讓大家都可以覺得說可以有一個共識來做這個但是我知道難度非常高啦因為大家都會為自己的縣市來爭取比較好的資源這是可以理解是那部長那我再請教齁這個土地增值稅啊土地增值稅是地方稅那是不是地方稅對吧"},{"start":7448.95,"end":7461.822,"text":"是地方稅。地價稅、填付、房屋稅之類都是地方稅。本席認為100%應該要都歸給地方政府才對。為什麼中央還要抽走20%來做統籌分配呢?這是什麼法?"},{"start":7465.565,"end":7484.334,"text":"抽走了以後其實又分配下去還是分配下去不是中央要拿走所以對於這個稅收怎麼將來的分成就是稅收分成的部分將來也會在我們這邊一起考慮要不要直接分還是說因為土生稅本來就是你拿走了他的20%然後再也是一樣20%還給他嗎並不是嘛不是還給他啦"},{"start":7486.415,"end":7502.783,"text":"並不是嘛,那所以所以一樣就是等於是說這是地方稅可是必須有20%必須由中央來做統籌分配在這去分配出去還是分配出去的對會到縣市裡面去可是為什麼要比如說土地的地價稅的增加這些應該說是"},{"start":7504.864,"end":7529.796,"text":"地方政府努力施政得到的重要成果嘛。台北市的成果、台中市的成果然後我不知道你要分配到哪裡。這怎麼公平呢?你要怎麼做?這叫黑箱嗎?我可以說它是黑箱嗎?沒有分配的話都是按照公式來分配的。公式來分配。然後其實在分配的時候其實有一個很重要的觀點。城市治理部長,部長你也清楚對不對?城市治理當然..."},{"start":7530.476,"end":7532.957,"text":"提供財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7550.086,"end":7573.829,"text":"他不知道或者是他也不能夠了解的這些統籌分配這我覺得不公平所以中央不能拿走這20%啦我用部長這個要我極力的要求這個部分在我們未來的這個新的院版出來我們財政部對於我們財政收支劃分法統籌分配款這一些我們要做一個全面的設計啦"},{"start":7576.851,"end":7603.56,"text":"這一定要做一個決定的設計因為時過境遷那麼久了民國40年6月到民國88年精神一直到現在對不對從6比4到75比25那沒有得到一個合理公正大家可以認同的當然剛剛也有提到各縣市有各縣市的堅持每個立委有每個立委的一個責任但是我相信只要提出願版然後大家跟黨團的版本來做一個磋商我們討論出一個最好的好不好"},{"start":7603.8,"end":7609.934,"text":"好,謝謝委員。謝謝。那我再來再請教,就是說這個我們"},{"start":7613.999,"end":7630.989,"text":"已經25年沒有修正所以我們期待一個健全財政的統籌法新的版本根據政府公布的國債中截至5月10日中央政府一年以上債務月償還的餘額為5兆5.9938兆這6兆 接近6兆國民黨都十分關注可不可以請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":7643.1,"end":7665.637,"text":"跟委員報告我們的長期債務是5兆9938億那這個部分我們會在5月6月的時候大額稅款進來的時候我們就會去優先去做還債會做還債那我們對債務的控管其實都一直要符合公共債務法的規定那我們現在距離公共債務法的一個一個空間其實還有我們目前實際的債務比例是2626而已對那"},{"start":7668.539,"end":7670.084,"text":"公共債務法是40.6,但是我們實際債務佔我們GDP的比例是26點多"},{"start":7674.949,"end":7692.074,"text":"我還要這麼講啦,因為每一年都超徵齁,民眾在意的就是你政府今年又從民眾身上拿了多少錢,連續三年超徵接近1.3兆對不對?不是超徵,我們的稅款每一塊錢都是依法來支收的,只是說收的金額是我比預算數來的高,那是超過預算數的部分"},{"start":7699.756,"end":7718.604,"text":"今天是新政府上台的第一天所以我們所有的委員、我們立法院的同仁都希望說尤其財政部財政部掌管著整個國家的一個財政大權那如何照顧人民、如何法令健全、如何優化我們的財政這個才是最重要的好不好好謝謝委員的質詢謝謝謝謝委員謝謝現在質詢請鄭天財政委員"},{"start":7730.205,"end":7758.235,"text":"五加一。」主席、各位委員、有請部長。請莊部長。委員好。部長好。這個財政收支劃分法25年沒有修正了。這樣的一個情況"},{"start":7760.725,"end":7772.562,"text":"對越偏遠的縣越偏遠的鄉那就更不利了基本上會是這樣所以這個部分是財政部這邊要這個"},{"start":7774.724,"end":7803.067,"text":"要積極地來去,這個如果拿出你們的版本很難拿出來的話,就是應該要依立法委員的版本怎麼樣去做最好的一個來去做修正。好,我們這個援助民主的部分,憲法徵修條文第4條規定得很清楚,要積極維護發展援助民主語言及文化。"},{"start":7804.578,"end":7827.414,"text":"第12項憲法徵修條文因依民主院保障原住民族的地位及政治參與並對其教育文化、交通水利、衛生、醫療、經濟、土地、社會福利、事業予以保障、輔助並促其發展所以這些都是需要經費才有辦法"},{"start":7828.789,"end":7846.467,"text":"之所以憲法徵修條文會把它列進去就是這些都是需要積極地來辦理的部分所以根據這個條文憲法徵修條文其辦法另以法律定之所以有了原住民族基本法"},{"start":7847.308,"end":7874.627,"text":"原住民族基本法裏面定了很多需要做的事情基本上主要就在這個部分甚至對於交通水利這些相關的這些需要包括工程的很多的建設原基法也規定要成立建設基金但是這個基金到現在也沒有成立所以第一個"},{"start":7876.371,"end":7878.744,"text":"財化法25年來沒有修正"},{"start":7880.05,"end":7906.671,"text":"我過去也提出這個財化法針對原住民族地區的一個條文也都沒有機會然後原基法也定了說應該設置這個建設基金原住民族建設基金也不成立也不定也不定這個辦法所以這個部分我們就是"},{"start":7908.069,"end":7919.09,"text":"我剛講的一開始講的這個25年來沒有修越偏遠的縣市越偏遠的鄉那絕對是最不利是不是這樣"},{"start":7921.465,"end":7949.497,"text":"目前來說對於原住民這個部分有一些相關的規定尤其在地方制度法裡面也有一些規定我想那另外當然這個部分有原基法或其他憲法裡面對原住民傳統領域的或者是地區的一個保障那至於財化法的部分它有一個功能就是要調節營需然後促進一個均衡的發展所以我想在這個部分對原住民這個區域的一個發展所需要的經費"},{"start":7950.317,"end":7963.6,"text":"依照現行地制法的規定已經有所規定了。這個你們今天的報告裡面你們的結論還要再討論所以這個部分已經討論了20不要說20幾年了最起碼我從第8屆當立法委員就開始大家"},{"start":7976.516,"end":8005.096,"text":"各地方的立委都一直提,原住民的立委也提,始終沒有辦法提。所以這個部分呢,是我剛就承諾我剛講的,還是如果因為你們這個考慮很多啦,拿不出來的話就能夠希望能夠支持原住民立委的版本。就以這個今天來講的也有原住民的版本。所以針對原住民族第七,事實上你們提到地方制度法,事實上地方制度法也沒有辦法解決嘛。"},{"start":8006.477,"end":8024.95,"text":"也沒有辦法解,不要去談那個地方制度法。所以這個部分,所以我剛剛講的,我們就講離島,離島那個也是離島建設基金啊,早就用光了,早就用光了,用了好多年了。"},{"start":8026.311,"end":8051.163,"text":"也都沒有、也都不修所以類似像這樣的這個當然我也要提出離島結合基金的修正條文所以像這樣的一個這些必須要正式的去面對了這個部長是那我想原住民地區尤其在直轄市裡面的原住民區它因為不是一個地方自治團體說客收入劃分跟參與那個"},{"start":8052.708,"end":8071.439,"text":"分配的一個主體,那跟地質法有關係,我想這個部分可能要地質法那邊要並同去做考量的。對。那個部長,這個原來的山地鄉有包含對不對?對。對。原來的山地鄉有包含"},{"start":8072.455,"end":8101.324,"text":"但是後來因為成立五都的時候成立五都的時候有一部分的山地鄉就變成山地行政、山地區所以它本來是在財化法的範圍裡面的那因為這個地方制度法的修正結果就不見了所以這個部分所以應該要去面對啊應該要去修法而不是因為地方制度法基本上"},{"start":8102.584,"end":8130.878,"text":"並沒有去做財源的主要的一個規劃。他有在裡面規定就只想要是必須對三住民要設算補助。那他的方式項目跟程序都要跟三原住民區來做協商。之前的關係要趕高鐵了。不是我趕高鐵,他要趕高鐵了。最後一句話。最後一句話。我就舉例子。譬如說04、03地震那個房屋稅"},{"start":8132.148,"end":8153.399,"text":"免收,對不對?那地方怎麼辦呢?很窮困的鄉鎮啊,所以中央就應該去補助啊,去補助這個稅,地方稅減少啦,就應該去補助,尤其是花蓮縣這些更窮困的這些鄉好不好?好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝二位。下一位質詢請,奈會員、奈委員。"},{"start":8157.672,"end":8180.305,"text":"今天的質詢到這場王室堅委員發言完畢為止,時間可能會延幾分鐘,謝謝。好,謝謝主席,謝謝政委員,因為我今天要趕回台南參加國宴,謝謝。那有請財政部部長,還有我們的副社署署長。副社署,宋署長。"},{"start":8183.052,"end":8206.983,"text":"部長、委員好、下午好我想今天我們財政委員會在審查整個統籌分配款的一個款項那在這裡我要先請教財政部部長部長請教你整個統籌分配款這個稅款對地方政府你個人認為影響最大的是什麼當然是錢嘛"},{"start":8207.943,"end":8222.208,"text":"全是最大的還有就是說你以這麼豐富的一個部長的一個經驗你認為在這個整體來講就是地方政府受到統籌分配款項最大的一個影響是什麼"},{"start":8223.861,"end":8244.302,"text":"這個很籠統,那當然你怎麼回答怎麼對啦,請回答,謝謝。統籌分配稅款分,尤其是普統的部分,我們統籌分配稅款分為兩塊,就是特統跟普統,那普統事實上是屬於地方政府的稅客收入,所以在他裡面是一個他的一個重要的一個財源。是。是。"},{"start":8245.568,"end":8265.393,"text":"對,重要當然就是地方政府的一個重要的財源那我們從2024年中央的統籌分配款的這一個款項裡頭我們用直轄市的這一個這個大家所分配到那個所分配到的就是說在六都裡頭那台南市拿了最少他只有拿到280億那其實這麼少的一個錢對台南市"},{"start":8271.354,"end":8297.187,"text":"他幾乎就是一直分配的金額都是墊底相對的就是說台北他可以拿到603那在高雄可以拿到434億那在台中也有387那桃園303甚至新北468那相對的就是說我們觀察到台南市他分配的金額他一路的一個墊底那這對於我們台南市的一個整體"},{"start":8297.947,"end":8324.397,"text":"即是地方的一個發展其實受到很大的一個影響那在這裡我要請教部長就是說其實地方財政的自籌率僅佔了10%所以我們地區其實是很難就是說被看見了不曉得就是說這個依賴度就是最高的可是分配又是最少的部長有沒有什麼比較好的一個解決的一個方式呢"},{"start":8325.506,"end":8328.928,"text":"目前由於統籌分配稅款給直轄市指標有人口還有土地面積還有營業還有財政能力那台南市的人口土地面積還有營業額"},{"start":8336.142,"end":8354.414,"text":"比其他職項低,但自籌財源比例比較低,所以在財政能力這一項是有利的。所以目前來看起來有一項是有利的,所以在其他人口或面積以及營業額部分事實上是因為它比較低,所以它在相對的分配上就會有一些影響。」"},{"start":8355.975,"end":8382.703,"text":"目前他的自籌財源比例是37.1%但是加計稅款之後自有財源的比例已經達到62.7%了所以這樣子的一個政策面是不是現行的一個分配方式在下頁會不會容易造成就是說窮的更窮那甚至就是說再加重考量自籌利基發展的狀況的叢尼的一個公式呢"},{"start":8384.144,"end":8411.681,"text":"委員這就是我們目前在作業當中的也就是說對於分配的公式我們認為應該要做一個檢討跟調整那但是呢各地方政府可以提出相關的一些分配公式裡面的指標但是因為目前意見還蠻分歧的所以這個部分我們一直在整合希望能夠有一個共識所以部長如果我們把這整個稅款然後下放到地方會不會比現行的一個制度面更好呢"},{"start":8413.602,"end":8431.715,"text":"稅款下放給地方,然後放之外還要做什麼樣的分配,能夠達到真正的條件營需跟區域均衡發展,那也更重要的事。那你有沒有把握這樣的分配會比現行的一個制度更好呢?這就是我們要努力讓比現在更好。你認為會更好嗎?看起來是有困難。"},{"start":8432.835,"end":8452.726,"text":"有困難也要做。有困難也要做,那做到什麼樣的程度呢?好,謝謝部長。那我們就針對的就是說,在講到就是台股的指數在一直創新高,那政守稅是不是可能成為一個新的財源?這個是一個很嚴肅的一個問題。我們知道在102年到"},{"start":8455.467,"end":8476.747,"text":"在2005年曾經徵手稅、我們收了政見交易所得稅後來有考慮到停徵的這些問題所以造成了很大很大的股票、股市的下跌在這裡我要請問部長,今年的帳戶已經"},{"start":8480.05,"end":8490.087,"text":"接近18%了,沿剩餘國際的一個股市,那我們會不會考慮就是說政守稅是不是可能成為我們一個新開闢的一個財源呢?"},{"start":8492.895,"end":8514.474,"text":"有沒有這樣子的一個討論呢?目前並沒有討論所謂政所稅這個部分但是目前來說至於個人出售的上市櫃股票的政所稅事實上是停徵的但是出售未上市櫃股票的交易所得是在110年開始已經課徵的基本所得稅額這個部分"},{"start":8515.274,"end":8523.826,"text":"所以你沒有收了正手稅那是不是會造成這些有錢的這些老闆更有錢然後一般的老百姓更窮啊會不會這樣子的一個狀況顯然就是會啊"},{"start":8527.58,"end":8550.746,"text":"那你投資沒有投資的收入沒有浪費那這樣子有錢人會是更有錢那就是說這個貧富的懸殊會更嚴重那怎麼辦呢我想現在我們在所得稅的部分呢其實已經有相關的一些機制那對於稅率的部分也是按照有最高是40%有在課證對那顯然40%還不夠啊因為他賺的錢遠遠超過我們收他的一個稅啊嗯是"},{"start":8557.321,"end":8575.969,"text":"所以部長有沒有考慮呢?目前並沒有考慮這方面在政所稅的原來停徵的部分要復徵那會不會考慮呢?萬一就是說股市他看起來顯然就是說台灣現在不是我們台灣錢現在不是銀卡吧?我看是銀到股市啊"},{"start":8576.889,"end":8597.939,"text":"所以我們是不是可以造就一般的一個百姓他們也可以就是在一個公平的稅制裡頭然後一樣在股市裡頭的一個投資呢?跟委員報告這個必須要審慎的考量因為必須要考量社會經濟的發展還有租稅公平等等各個方面的意見我想這個要有社會各界共識以後"},{"start":8598.439,"end":8620.199,"text":"所以啊我們希望共享經濟成果啊所以是不是就是說優先把他這些賺的錢用來社會福利的一個政策有沒有辦法我們把合理的一個政所稅的一個制度就是一定比例用於專門的一個社會福利有沒有機會可以操作這一方面去設計嗎政所稅的相關的課徵我們要審慎的研議對"},{"start":8623.868,"end":8650.578,"text":"部長,我這樣跟你提這個問題,我看你比我還緊張。我沒有緊張。好,謝謝。那本席在這裡要求財政部就是評估現行的統籌分配的一個稅款中各區域的分配的一個比例的計算方式是不是合理。那並且評估更有效的將這個統籌分配款項分配給弱勢的縣市的一個做法。"},{"start":8652.459,"end":8670.055,"text":"第二項我們希望就是跟金管會的合作評估如何在對市場影響最小的前提之下那我們來徵收這個政守稅並且評估能提供多少財源給社會福利制度請一個院內提出書面報告謝謝部長"},{"start":8678.014,"end":8680.916,"text":"今天最後一位執行卿王世堅王委員謝謝主席我請部長莊部長委員好部長恭喜喔你是極少數能夠留任的重要閣員"},{"start":8703.669,"end":8728.972,"text":"那也誠如當年當時啦大概一個半月以前吧我對你質詢的時候那時候也是信心滿滿的你還問說怎麼知道我不會留任結果你真的是留任了你有做得很好的部分就是我提的你把我們的國產"},{"start":8731.683,"end":8760.054,"text":"稅金當作你個人的實質價你的表情就告訴了我們全體國人誰也休想搶走我的實質價所以我們要你該不合時宜的稅制該要降的對生斗小民的稅那這個部分你都跟我答覆說你必須找到替代財源"},{"start":8762.935,"end":8786.802,"text":"結果我就舉當年民國107年那時候那天也沒怎麼樣可能太陽大了一點風大了一點財政部一個爽快就把最高級巨的富人稅就取消了也沒有找到任何替代財源之下沒有任何可以替代的之下"},{"start":8787.976,"end":8804.482,"text":"馬上取消一個年度差了將近100億、98億6個年度到今年下來幫富人省了600億的稅金我今天要跟你提的前幾位委員一開始就提到就是說現在我們國債的問題"},{"start":8807.023,"end":8827.25,"text":"我們的國債高達6兆4千億平均我們每一位國民要分擔27.4萬元的債務那這是相當高也相當可怕的一個事情我認為當務之急有幾件事情馬上應該做第一個立刻恢復富人稅"},{"start":8829.226,"end":8855.226,"text":"財政收支劃分法不止生斗小民極具的叛亂連這些富人啊我相信部長你這麼多年來光聽其他富人我不舉我就舉一位叫郭台銘郭台銘先生講了這句話說政府趕快來科富人稅趕快來科富人稅講了不下十次"},{"start":8857.382,"end":8869.682,"text":"結果我們政府文文不動財政部也是反正刪了就刪了你們說當初刪你們說是要流財攬財"},{"start":8873.099,"end":8894.948,"text":"財能的財啦那那個財有沒有留到我不曉得你們倒是真的留了財財產的財留了財給這些富人們這倒是真的啦那我覺得如果說連富人們連郭台銘都站出來說趕快徵富人稅結果"},{"start":8897.813,"end":8925.381,"text":"你們視若無睹、自若枉聞那不但深斗小民繼續百思不解而且我們國庫得不到挹注最主要的我們深斗小民們還被這些富人們、被郭台銘吃了豆腐吃了七八年"},{"start":8926.735,"end":8939.65,"text":"他每年講啊來啊來啊來客啊來客啊我願意講啊願意講結果我聽了半天我們生土小民就吃豆腐所以我希望立刻恢復這個富人稅然後"},{"start":8943.458,"end":8970.567,"text":"針對我們生土小民每年報稅的時候免稅額扣除額的提高這一個部分你們又說這個啊要CPI啊累計跟上次調整有CPI有漲百分之三以上但是部長你很清楚嘛那時候我們找主記長他們來報告的時候都很清楚事實上CPI的調查"},{"start":8971.963,"end":8994.607,"text":"無價指數的部分我用兩個字形容施政不是嗎?我們上次討論以後光這個禮拜光最粗淺的一些電媒的調查我們光是在便利商店用的這些便當、義大利麵、飯糰漲幅平均高達40%"},{"start":9002.438,"end":9008.656,"text":"這些都是每天升讀小名上班族學生們平常要去購買的"},{"start":9012.26,"end":9033.886,"text":"這幾項就高達40%其他的飲料大概平均也都漲了一成之多啦所以CPI失增的情況下我認為應該立刻降低這一個限制就是說你如果要調高免稅額扣除額必須CPI年增率高達3%這一個3%我不敢說你把它整個取消"},{"start":9039.755,"end":9055.319,"text":"部長考慮把它降低可以嗎?要不然我們就先降到1.5嘛先減半看看嘛可不可以這是我要求你做的齁等一下我先講完你一次回答齁那麼你比方說這幾年我們調漲這個"},{"start":9062.631,"end":9069.361,"text":"免稅額寬減額這個部分這麼多年來你這個強硬規定之下我們10年來只調漲3次啦106年開始免稅額8萬8條到"},{"start":9076.146,"end":9103.766,"text":"111年九萬二到今年九萬七都只調大概三千五千那麼其他標準扣除而也是上漲十年調了三次而已再來我希望你夠落實加薪減稅部長加薪減稅何其重要你知道嗎因為我們統計這根據官方的統計我們現在有超過三分之二以上的勞工"},{"start":9105.147,"end":9131.922,"text":"領不到平均薪資,薪資的平均數三分之二的勞工領不到耶,天哪所以我認為我們中階的這些收入的民眾嚴重的在這10年來的薪資實質薪資是下滑的所以我希望加薪減稅這些能夠落實也就是說加薪減稅你另外有一條你說"},{"start":9133.282,"end":9144.508,"text":"這些企業、中小企業啦你們要加薪減稅可以你說啊要失業率連續三年達到3.7%以上我認為我認為這個應該取消因為失業率連續半年你說要連續半年3.7%以上我認為把這一條限制取消立刻取消的話我們就可以鼓勵所有企業主對員工來加薪"},{"start":9162.657,"end":9178.302,"text":"那我們政府也能夠既然他做到了我們就大大方方的減他的稅那最後我要跟你提到的就是不合時宜這些稅制我們這前幾個月講了好多次啦你像娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅"},{"start":9179.942,"end":9198.84,"text":"其機車貨物稅尤其是機車貨物稅還有保健品的關稅這些看起來零零總總不少錢但事實上加加起來都沒有你負人稅一減減了600億這些加加起來連600億都不大那我認為比方說娛樂稅那麼他的荒謬的部分這個"},{"start":9200.982,"end":9228.84,"text":"於熱帥方面的部分就是說課稅成本太高嘛課稅成本太高近乎擾民啊然後這個印花稅的話是重複課稅那尤其機車的貨物稅我們一年掛牌20萬輛部機車總共課他50萬稅等於每一台機車一台機車才七八萬元課了兩萬多元的稅這實在太殘忍了吧機車現在"},{"start":9230.521,"end":9245.188,"text":"已經不只是生斗小民的交通工具他是生斗小民的還謀生工具欸 對不對早上在老婆小孩上班上課再來他本人要用這個機車去送貨"},{"start":9247.614,"end":9261.147,"text":"所以我們不應該對機車族這麼摳那你們現在摳財政部也去幫他們找了一個理由你們說啊這個機車污染太重啦齁結果我一查結果欸PM2.5的排放機車這麼總數這麼大的百萬計的機車總共加起來PM2.5佔整個總污染的"},{"start":9274.746,"end":9288.479,"text":"4.8%而已。原因為什麼?因為現在的機車都是通過七級環保的標準。財政4.8%隨便啊一個行業項目都比他高我就講餐廳就好餐廳10%以上然後你對機車課這麼重的貨物稅這個貨物稅重到比大貨車還重大貨車17%那個"},{"start":9303.632,"end":9325.072,"text":"計車17%大貨車才15%而已所以林林總統講這邊那個謝謝趙吉仁因為我不去搭高鐵的所以麻煩你再給我這一分鐘我最後要趕快跟他下一個結論一方面部長我請你回答二方面我剛剛提到的這幾個問題我希望你心上的"},{"start":9325.632,"end":9333.437,"text":"和新氣象的一天,你能夠除了據實的答覆我,同時是不是一個月內能夠對我提的這幾項給我一個具體的答覆,你的看法呢?"},{"start":9338.687,"end":9346.092,"text":"謝謝委員的指教。委員對於107年的有關那個所得稅的稅率從45%降為40%這個部分當時是所得稅制整體的一個考量的一個優化並不是只就這一項那包含在營所稅的部分也從17%提升到20%另外對於標準"},{"start":9358.739,"end":9377.636,"text":"標準扣除額以及相關的薪資所得特別扣除額還幼兒特別扣除額等等都有把它拉高這個部分就是說對於所得低的部分我們也把它能夠扣減的數字可以增加那可以減少它的繳稅的負擔所以那一次的所得稅制的優化是整體的考量"},{"start":9378.317,"end":9381.699,"text":"從45%降為40%這個部分事實上是確實流財攬財希望能有更多人在台灣來然後投資那也跟委員報告事實上這0.85%的人他繳了我們45%的所得稅所以其實所得高的人他其實交了稅是交了大部分的稅而對於沒有達到一定的我們的課稅門檻的其實他都不用繳所得稅這個部分是跟委員報告"},{"start":9405.112,"end":9428.445,"text":"另外跟委員報告就是您剛剛提到的加薪減稅的部分這一次在經濟部修正中小企業發展條例裡面對於您剛剛提到那些不合理的門檻財政部也同意經濟部的意見把這個門檻可以取消掉同時對於加薪的減成的數額提高還有適用的年限拉長這個部分財政部都同意經濟部相關的一個意見目前也在立法院的一個審議當中剛剛委員所提到的有關"},{"start":9431.607,"end":9456.042,"text":"不合十一的稅制的部分,我想這個部分我們也會是不是透過書面的部分逐一跟委員做一個書面的一個報告。好,我加薪減稅,這個門檻刪掉這個你同意啦。是,是,我們同意。好,我很高興,我很高興同意你的同意。是,是。好,那其他的你就具體的用一個書面給我答問好不好?是,跟委員回報,是。好,謝謝您。好,謝謝委員,謝謝主席,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":9463.736,"end":9467.224,"text":"本議程詢答到這裡,則期再繼續開會。現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"152700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583d09f77e668a676374e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d261859cea193b8358d2b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"16:16:01 - 16:24:39","影片長度":"00:08:38","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":518,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T16:24:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T16:16:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（16時16分）謝謝主席，謝謝鄭委員，因為我今天要趕回臺南參加國宴，謝謝。有請財政部部長，還有賦稅署署長。"],["主席：請莊部長、賦稅署宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長、署長，下午好。今天財政委員會審查財劃法有關統籌分配稅款的部分，我要先請教財政部部長。部長，想請教你，整個統籌分配款稅款對地方政府，你個人認為影響最大的是什麼？當然是錢，錢是最大的。還有就是以你部長這麼豐富的經驗，你認為整體來講，地方政府受到統籌分配款項最大的影響是什麼？這個問題很籠統，當然，你怎麼回答怎麼對。請回答，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：統籌分配稅款分為兩塊，就是特統跟普統，其中普統事實上是屬於地方政府的稅課收入，所以是地方政府裡面一個重要的財源。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員惠員：對，當然是地方政府的一個重要的財源。就以2024年中央統籌分配款的分配金額來看，各個直轄市所分配到的，在六都裡頭，臺南市拿得最少，它只有拿到280億，其實這麼少的錢對臺南市，它分配到的金額幾乎就是一直墊底，相對的，臺北可以拿到603億，高雄可以拿到434億，臺中也有387億，桃園有303億，甚至新北有468億，相對的，我們觀察到，臺南市分配的金額一路墊底，我們臺南市整體的地方發展其實受到很大的影響。在這裡我要請教部長，照理說自籌財源比例少，財政依賴度高的地區，在計算統籌分配稅款時應當分數較高，能夠獲得較多的分配稅款，可是目前地方財政自籌率僅占10%，所以我們地區的需求很難被看見。我們臺南市的依賴度最高，可是分配到的統籌稅款又是最少的，部長，有沒有什麼比較好的解決方式呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前研議統籌分配稅款給直轄市的指標有人口、土地面積、營業額、財政能力，臺南市的人口、土地面積還有營業額比其他直轄市來得低，但是它的自籌財源比例比較低，所以在財政能力這一項是有利的。目前看起來，只有一項是有利的，在其他的人口、土地面積以及營業額的部分，事實上因為它比較低，所以相對的在分配上就會有一些影響。不過目前它的自籌財源比例是37.1%，但是加計稅款之後，自有財源的比例已經達到62.7%了。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就政策面而言，現行的分配方式會不會容易造成窮鄉更窮，是否應加重考量自籌率及發展狀況重擬公式呢？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。委員，這就是我們目前在作業當中的，也就是說對於分配的公式，我們認為應該要做一個檢討跟調整，各地方政府可以提出與分配公式相關的一些指標，但是因為目前意見還滿分歧的，所以這個部分我們一直在整合，希望能夠有一個共識。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，如果我們把這整個稅款下放到地方，會不會比現行的制度面更好呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，稅款下放給地方，然後除了放之外，還要做怎麼樣的分配才能夠達到真正的調劑盈虛跟區域均衡發展，那也更重要。"],["賴委員惠員：那你有沒有把握這樣的分配會比現行的制度更好？"],["莊部長翠雲：這就是我們要努力地比現在更好，所以才要修……"],["賴委員惠員：你認為會更好嗎？顯然看起來是有困難。"],["莊部長翠雲：有困難也要做。"],["賴委員惠員：有困難也要做？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那要做到什麼樣的程度呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，當然也要對這個來做一些變革。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：我們講到臺股的指數一直在創新高，那證所稅是不是可能成為一個新的財源？這個是一個很嚴肅的問題，我們知道在102年到105年我們曾經收了證券交易所得稅，後來就是有考慮到停徵的這一些問題，所以就是造成了很大、很大的股市下跌。我在這裡要請問部長，今年的漲幅已經接近18%了，遠勝於國際的股市，那我們會不會考慮讓證所稅成為我們新開闢的一個財源呢？有沒有這樣子的討論呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前並沒有討論所謂證所稅這個部分，至於個人出售上市櫃股票的證所稅事實上是停徵的，但是出售未上市櫃股票的交易所得在110年已經開始課徵基本所得稅額這個部分。"],["賴委員惠員：因為你沒有徵收證所稅，那是不是會造成這些有錢的老闆更有錢然後一般的老百姓更窮，會不會有這樣子的狀況？顯然就是會啊！投資的收入沒有納稅，這樣子有錢人會更有錢，就是貧富的懸殊會更嚴重，那怎麼辦呢？有沒有想什麼改善的辦法？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在我們在所得稅的部分其實已經有一些相關的機制，也是有按照最高40%的稅率在課徵。"],["賴委員惠員：那顯然40%還不夠啊！因為他賺的錢遠遠超過我們對他徵收的稅啊！部長有沒有考慮呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前在這方面並沒有考慮對原來停徵的證所稅部分要復徵，並沒有這個考慮。"],["賴委員惠員：那會不會考慮呢？萬一股市看起來顯然就是……我們臺灣的錢現在不是淹腳目，我看是已經淹到肚臍了所以我們是不是可以造就對一般百姓也可以公平的稅制，然後讓他們一樣在股市裡頭進行投資呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個必須要審慎的考量，因為必須要考量社會經濟的發展，還有租稅公平等等各個方面的意見，我想這個要社會各界有共識以後才來做討論。"],["賴委員惠員：我們希望共享經濟成果，所以是不是就優先把他賺的這些錢用於社會福利的政策？我們有沒有辦法建立合理的證所稅制度，將一定比例用於專門的社會福利，有沒有機會？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分……"],["賴委員惠員：可以朝著這方面去設計嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於證所稅相關的課徵，我們要審慎的研議。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我這樣跟你提這個問題，我看你比我還緊張。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我沒有緊張。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：本席在這裡要求財政部評估現行統籌分配稅款中各區域分配比率的計算方式是不是合理，並且評估更有效的將統籌分配款項分配給弱勢縣市的作法。第二，我們希望你們跟金管會合作，評估如何在對市場影響最小的前提之下來徵收證所稅，並且評估能提供多少財源給社會福利制度。請於一個月內提出書面報告，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來是今天最後一位質詢的委員，請王世堅王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.755968750000001,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.121593750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.11221875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.669093750000002,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.54221875,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.47409375,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.64846875,"end":51.432218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.634718750000005,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.000968750000006,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.64596875,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.71284375,"end":66.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.46784375,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.94034375000001,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.99096875000001,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.28096875,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.87909375000001,"end":81.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.16596875,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.19534375,"end":90.61596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.88596875,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.34096875,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.22221875,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":162.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.60471875000002,"end":169.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.64159375,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.94909375,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.53034375000001,"end":201.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.30471875,"end":193.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.23659375000003,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":201.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.36659375000002,"end":213.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.68534375000002,"end":221.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.40159375000002,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.96221875,"end":224.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.64409375000002,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.28034375000001,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.39846875,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.03034375000001,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.37596875000003,"end":259.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.34909375,"end":263.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.29784375,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.31471875,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.87159375000005,"end":263.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.93909375000004,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.97284375000004,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.02346875,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.62659375000004,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.70221875000004,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.27534375,"end":274.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.52784375000005,"end":276.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.62909375000004,"end":312.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.86096875000004,"end":278.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.43784375,"end":329.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.97096875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.20721875000004,"end":330.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.03409375,"end":351.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.89409375,"end":336.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.50159375000004,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.09409375,"end":352.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.31346875,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.35409375,"end":363.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.65346875,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.61534375,"end":375.094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是。 是。"},{"start":82.267,"end":82.847,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":112.327,"end":112.587,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":132.048,"end":132.248,"text":"賴惠員賴惠"},{"start":153.291,"end":153.311,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":172.981,"end":173.281,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":193.071,"end":219.796,"text":"目前他的自籌財源比例是37.1%,但是加計稅款之後自有財源的比例已經達到62.7%了。是,所以這樣子的一個政策面,是不是現行的一個分配方式在下頁會不會容易造成就是說窮的更窮,那甚至就是說再加重考量自籌率及發展的狀況的叢尼的一個公式呢?"},{"start":221.117,"end":248.78,"text":"委員這就是我們目前在作業當中的,也就是說對於分配的公式,我們認為應該要做一個檢討跟調整。但是各地方政府可以提出相關的一些分配公式裡面的指標,但是因為目前意見還蠻分歧的,所以這個部分我們一直在整合,希望能夠有一個共識。所以部長如果我們把這整個稅款然後下放到地方,會不會比現行的一個制度面更好呢?"},{"start":249.44,"end":268.834,"text":"而第一個稅款下放給地方然後放之外還要做怎麼樣的分配能夠達到真正的條件營需跟區域均衡發展那也更重要是那你有沒有把握就是這樣的分配會比現行的一個制度更好這就是我們要努力讓比現在更好你認為會更好嗎現在看起來是有困難"},{"start":269.954,"end":270.174,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":292.483,"end":292.583,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":317.159,"end":328.064,"text":"接近18%了,延伸於國際的一個股市。那我們會不會考慮就是說正手稅是不是可能成為我們一個新開闢的一個財源呢?"},{"start":330.014,"end":351.573,"text":"有沒有這樣子的一個討論呢?目前並沒有討論所謂正所稅這個部分但是目前來說至於個人出售的上市櫃股票的正所稅事實上是停徵的但是出售未上市櫃股票的交易所得是在110年開始已經課徵的基本所得稅額這個部分"},{"start":352.393,"end":374.355,"text":"所以你沒有收了正手稅那是不是會造成這些有錢的這些老闆更有錢然後一般的老百姓更窮啊會不會這樣子的一個狀況顯然就是會啊那你投資沒有投資的收入沒有納稅那這樣子有錢人會是更有錢那就是說這個貧富的懸殊會更嚴重那怎麼辦勒"},{"start":375.596,"end":387.844,"text":"我們想現在我們在所得稅的部分呢其實已經有相關的一些機制那對於稅率的部分也是按照有最高的是40%有在課證對那顯然40%還不夠啊因為他賺的錢遠遠超過我們收他的一個稅啊嗯是"},{"start":394.44,"end":410.487,"text":"所以部長有沒有考慮呢?目前並沒有考慮這方面在政所稅的原來停徵的部分要復徵。那會不會考慮呢?萬一就是說股市他看起來顯然就是說台灣現在不是,我們台灣現在不是陰核吧?我看是陰核獨在啊。"},{"start":413.988,"end":435.069,"text":"所以我們是不是可以造就一般的一個百姓他們也可以就是在一個公平的稅制裡頭然後一樣在股市裡頭的一個投資呢?跟委員報告這個必須要審慎的考量因為必須要考量社會經濟的發展還有租稅公平等等各個方面的意見我想這個要有社會各界共識"},{"start":435.529,"end":457.302,"text":"所以啊,我們希望共享經濟成果啊,所以是不是就是說優先把它這些賺的錢用來社會福利的一個政策有沒有辦法我們把合理的一個政所稅的一個制度就是一定比例用於專門的一個社會福利有沒有機會可以操作這一方面去設計嗎政所稅的相關的課徵我們要審慎的研議"},{"start":460.967,"end":487.691,"text":"副長,我這樣跟你提這個問題我看你比我還緊張。我沒有緊張。好,謝謝。那本席在這裡要求財政部就是評估現行的統籌分配的一個稅款中各區域的分配的一個比例的計算方式是不是合理。那並且評估更有效的將這個統籌分配款項分配給弱勢的縣市的一個做法。"},{"start":489.171,"end":509.56,"text":"那第二項我們希望就是跟金管會的合作評估如何在對市場影響最小的前提之下那我們來徵收這個政守稅那並且評估能提供多少財源給社會福利制度請一個院內提出書面報告謝謝部長謝謝今天最後一位執行卿王世堅王委員"}]}},{"id":"152699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583fce1df6d8d5057994e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d2618505516ffde792dc4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"16:24:46 - 16:37:46","影片長度":"00:13:00","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":780,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T16:37:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T16:24:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（16時24分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，恭喜喔！你是極少數能夠留任的重要閣員，在大概一個半月前我對你質詢的時候，你那時候也是信心滿滿的，你還問我：欸，怎麼知道我不會留任？結果你真的是留任了。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：你有做得很好的部分，就是我提的，你把我們的國產、稅金當作你個人的十字架，你的表情就告訴了我們全體國人，誰也休想搶走我的十字架，所以我們要你針對不合時宜的稅制、應該要對升斗小民降稅，那這個部分你對我的答復都是你必須找到替代財源，結果我就舉民國107年那時候為例，在那一天也沒有怎麼樣，可能是太陽大了一點、風大了一點，財政部一個爽快，就把最高級距的富人稅取消了，也沒有找到任何的替代財源，在沒有任何替代財源的情況之下就馬上取消，一個年度差了將近100億，就是98億，6個年度下來，到今年幫富人省了600億的稅金。","我今天要跟你提的是前幾位委員一開始就提到的，就是現在我們國債的問題，我們的國債高達6兆4,000億，平均我們每一位國民要分擔27.4萬元的債務，這是相當高的金額，也是相當可怕的事情。我認為當務之急有幾件事情應該要馬上做，第一個就是立刻恢復富人稅，富人稅不只是升斗小民急切的盼望，連這些富人，我相信部長這麼多年來光聽……我不舉其他富人為例，我就舉郭台銘為例，郭台銘先生講了這句話，他說政府趕快來課富人稅，他講了不下10次，結果我們政府紋風不動，財政部也是覺得反正刪了就刪了，當初刪的時候你們說是要留才、攬才，就是才能的才，至於那個才有沒有留到，我不曉得，你們倒是真的留了財，就是財產的財，留了財給這些富人們，這倒是真的啦！","我覺得如果連富人們、連郭台銘都站出來說趕快徵富人稅，結果你們視若無睹、置若罔聞，那不但是升斗小民繼續百思不解，而且我們的國庫得不到挹注，最主要的是我們升斗小民們還被這些富人們、被郭台銘吃豆腐吃了七、八年，他每年講：來啊！來啊！來課啊！來課啊！我願意繳，我很願意繳。結果聽了半天，我們升斗小民就被吃豆腐。","所以我希望立刻恢復這個富人稅，然後針對我們升斗小民每年報稅的時候，把免稅額、扣除額提高，對這個部分你們又說要CPI較上次調整時的CPI上漲累計達3%以上，但是部長很清楚，那時候我們找主計長他們來報告的時候，都講得很清楚，事實上CPI的調查、物價指數的部分，我用「失真」兩個字來形容，不是嗎？在我們上次討論以後，光是在這個禮拜，光是最粗淺的一些電子媒體的調查，我們光是在便利商店的這些便當、義大利麵、飯糰，漲幅平均高達40%，這些都是升斗小民、上班族、學生們平常會去購買的，這幾項就高達40%，其他的飲料大概平均也都漲了一成之多，所以在CPI失真的情況下，我認為應該立刻降低這個限制，就是說你如果要調高免稅額、扣除額，必須CPI年增率高達3%，這個3%，我不敢說你要把它整個取消，部長，考慮把它降低可以嗎？要不然我們就先降到1.5，先減半看看，可不可以？這是我要求你做的。","等一下，我先講完，然後你一次回答。比方說這幾年我們調漲免稅額、寬減額這個部分，這麼多年來，你這個強硬規定之下，我們10年來只調漲3次，106年開始免稅額是8萬8,000，111年是9萬2,000，到今年是9萬7,000，都只調大概三千、五千，其他標準扣除額也是上漲10年只調了3次而已。","再來，我希望你能夠落實加薪減稅。部長，加薪減稅何其重要你知道嗎？因為根據官方的統計，我們現在有超過三分之二以上勞工領不到平均薪資，薪資的平均數有三分之二勞工領不到，天啊！所以我認為我們這些中階收入的民眾，在這10年來實質薪資是嚴重下滑的，所以我希望加薪減稅這些能夠落實，也就是說，加薪減稅的部分你另外有一條，你說這些企業、中小企業要加薪減稅可以，但是要連續半年失業率達到3.78%以上，我認為這個應該取消，因為你說要連續半年失業率達3.78%以上，我認為把這一條限制取消，立刻取消的話，我們就可以鼓勵所有企業主對員工來加薪，那我們政府也能夠……既然它做到了，我們就大大方方的減它的稅。","最後我要跟你提到的就是不合時宜的這些稅制，前幾個月我們講了好多次，像娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅、汽機車貨物稅，尤其是機車貨物稅，還有保健品的關稅，這些看起來林林總總不少錢，但事實上加起來都沒有你富人稅一減就減了600億，這些加起來連600億都不到。","比方說娛樂稅，娛樂稅荒謬的部分就是課稅成本太高，近乎擾民啦！印花稅則是重複課稅。尤其機車的貨物稅，我們一年掛牌20萬輛機車，總共課了50萬的稅，等於每一臺機車……一臺機車才七、八萬元，課了兩萬多元的稅，這實在太殘忍了啦！機車現在已經不只是升斗小民的交通工具，它還是升斗小民的謀生工具，對不對？早上載老婆、小孩上班、上課，再來他本人要用這個機車去送貨，所以我們不應該對機車族這麼摳，你們現在摳，財政部也去幫他們找了一個理由，你們說機車污染太重了，結果我一查PM2.5的排放，機車總數這麼大，以百萬計的機車，總共加起來PM2.5占整個總污染的4.8%而已，為什麼？因為現在的機車都是通過七期環保的標準，它才占4.8%，隨便一個行業項目都比它高，我講餐廳就好，餐廳是10%以上，然後你對機車課這麼重的貨物稅，這個貨物稅重到比大貨車還重！機車是17%，大貨車才15%而已，所以林林總總……","謝謝召集人，因為我不去搭高鐵，所以麻煩你再給我1分鐘，最後我要趕快下一個結論，一方面部長我請你回答，二方面我剛剛提到的這幾個問題，我希望你在新上任、新氣象的一天，除了據實地答復我，同時是不是一個月內能夠對我提的這幾項給我一個具體的答復？你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。對於107年有關所得稅的稅率從45%降為40%這個部分，當時是所得稅制整體考量的一個優化，並不是只就這一項，包含營所稅的部分也從17%提升到28%；另外，對於標準扣除額以及相關的薪資所得特別扣除額、幼兒特別扣除額等等都有把它拉高。這個部分就是說，對於所得低的部分，我們也把能夠扣減的數字增加，可以減少他繳稅的負擔，所以那一次所得稅制的優化是整體的考量。從45%降為40%這個部分，事實上確實是為了留才、攬才，希望能有更多人到臺灣來，然後投資。也跟委員報告，事實上，這0.85%的人繳了我們45%的所得稅，所以所得高的人其實是繳了大部分的稅，對於沒有達到我們一定課稅門檻的，其實他都不用繳所得稅，這個部分跟委員報告。","另外，跟委員報告，您剛剛提到的加薪減稅部分，這一次在經濟部修正中小企業發展條例裡面，對於您剛剛提到那些不合理的門檻，財政部也同意經濟部的意見，可以把這個門檻取消掉，同時對於加薪的減成的數額提高，還有適用的年限拉長，這個部分財政部都同意經濟部相關的意見，目前也在立法院審議當中。剛剛委員所提有關不合時宜稅制的部分，我想這個部分我們是不是透過書面逐一跟委員做報告？"],["王委員世堅：好，加薪減稅這個門檻刪掉，這個你同意啦？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們同意。"],["王委員世堅：我很高興，我很高興同意你的同意，其他的你就具體的用書面給我答復，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們用書面跟委員回報。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝你。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：本日議程詢答到這裡，擇期再繼續開會，現在休息。","休息（16時37分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.73971875,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.61284375,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.531593750000003,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.95221875,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.95409375,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.65409375,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.46784375,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.35784375,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.82596875,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.821593750000005,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.64409375,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.85471875,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.51096875,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.00221875000001,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.93034375,"end":81.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.16159375000001,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.54971875000001,"end":85.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.05971875,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.25596875000001,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.09096875,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.85284375,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.34221875,"end":142.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.01284375,"end":143.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.46846875,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.70034375,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.11784375000002,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.70409375,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.37471875,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.12534375,"end":160.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.52471875,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.39784375000002,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.48096875000002,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.30721875,"end":177.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.90596875,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.72846875000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.88409375,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.09034375000002,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.53221875,"end":200.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.65784375,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.13846875000002,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.58971875,"end":209.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.73221875000002,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.09909375,"end":212.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.31409375,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.56221875000003,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.77721875,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.30846875,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.62471875000003,"end":226.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.70846875,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.08784375000002,"end":233.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.39096875,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.05659375000002,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.40159375000002,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.13971875000001,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.61159375000003,"end":254.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.07971875,"end":256.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.32409375000003,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.60159375,"end":271.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.87034375,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.80221875,"end":285.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.12971875,"end":287.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.18846875,"end":289.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.02784375000005,"end":291.05721875},{"speak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.031,"text":"結果我們政府文文不動財政部也是反正刪了就刪了你們說當初刪你們說是要流財攬財"},{"start":187.45,"end":209.296,"text":"財能的財啦齁那 那個財有沒有留到我不曉得你們倒是真的留了財財產的財留了財給這些富人們這倒是真的啦齁那我覺得如果說連富人們連郭台銘都站出來說趕快徵富人稅結果"},{"start":212.165,"end":239.736,"text":"你們視若無睹、自若枉文。那不但深斗小民繼續百思不解而且我們國庫得不到挹注。最主要的我們深斗小民們還被這些富人們、被郭台銘吃了豆腐吃了七、八年。"},{"start":241.104,"end":254.141,"text":"他每年講啊來啊來啊來客啊來客啊我願意講啊願意講結果我聽了半天我們生土小民就吃豆腐所以我希望立刻恢復這個富人稅然後"},{"start":257.809,"end":284.922,"text":"針對我們升德小民每年報稅的時候免稅額扣除額的提高這個部分欸你們又說這個啊要CPI啊累計跟上次調整有CPI有漲百分之三以上但是部長你很清楚嘛那時候我們找主記長他們來報告的時候都很清楚事實上CPI的調查"},{"start":286.315,"end":315.276,"text":"無價指數的部分齁我用兩個字形容失真不是嗎我們上次討論以後光這這個禮拜啊光最粗淺的一些電媒的調查我們光是在便利商店用的這些便當啦義大利麵啦飯糰啦漲幅平均高達百分之四十"},{"start":316.794,"end":323.011,"text":"這些都是每天生徒小民、上班族、學生們平常要去購買的。"},{"start":326.612,"end":351.479,"text":"這幾項就高達百分之四十其他的飲料大概平均也都漲了一成之多啦所以CPI失增的情況下我認為應該立刻降低這一個限制就是說你如果要調高免稅額扣除額必須CPI年增率高達百分之三這一個百分之三我不敢說你把它整個取消"},{"start":354.087,"end":369.484,"text":"部長,考慮把它降低可以嗎?要不然我們就先降到1.5嘛。先減半看看嘛。可不可以?這是我要求你做的齁。等一下,我先講完你一次回答齁。那麼,你比方說這幾年我們調漲這個"},{"start":376.983,"end":383.712,"text":"免稅額寬減額這個部分這麼多年來你這個強硬規定之下我們10年來只調漲3次啦106年開始免稅額8萬8條到"},{"start":389.895,"end":418.117,"text":"一百一十一年九萬二到一百今年九萬七喔都只調大概三千五千那麼其他標準扣除而也是上漲十年調了三次而已再來我希望你夠落實加薪減稅部長加薪減稅何其重要你知道嗎因為我們統計這根據官方的統計我們現在有超過三分之二以上的勞工"},{"start":419.498,"end":446.273,"text":"領不到平均薪資啦。薪資的平均數三分之二的勞工領不到耶。天哪。所以我認為我們中階的這些收入的民眾嚴重的在這十年來的薪資、實質薪資是下滑的。所以我希望加薪減稅這些能夠落實。也就是說加薪減稅你另外有一條你說"},{"start":447.634,"end":455.564,"text":"這些企業,中小企業啦,你們要加薪減稅可以。你說啊,要失業率連續3年達到3.7%以上,我認為"},{"start":460.182,"end":477.035,"text":"我認為這個應該取消因為失業率連續半年你說要連續半年3.7%以上我認為把這一條限制取消立刻取消的話我們就可以鼓勵所有企業主對員工來加薪那"},{"start":477.495,"end":492.661,"text":"我們政府也能夠既然他做到了我們就大大方方的減他的稅那最後我要跟你提到就是不合時宜這些稅制我們這前幾個月講了好多次啦你像娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅"},{"start":494.062,"end":494.843,"text":"王世堅王世堅王世堅"},{"start":515.896,"end":543.192,"text":"議論稅方面的部分就是說課稅成本太高嘛課稅成本太高近乎擾民啊然後這個印花稅的話是重複課稅那尤其機車的貨物稅我們一年掛牌二十萬輛部機車總共課它五十萬稅等於每一台機車欸一台機車才七八萬元課了兩萬多元的稅這實在太殘忍了吧機車現在"},{"start":544.873,"end":559.551,"text":"已經不只是生斗小民的交通工具他是生斗小民的還謀生工具欸 對不對早上在老婆小孩上班上課再來他本人要用這個機車去送貨"},{"start":561.966,"end":575.498,"text":"所以我們不應該對機車族這麼摳。那你們現在摳財政部也去幫他們找了一個理由。你們說啊這個機車污染太重啦齁結果我一查結果欸PM2.5的排放機車這麼總數這麼大的百萬計的機車總共加起來PM2.5佔整個總污染的"},{"start":587.819,"end":590.861,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":614.861,"end":621.323,"text":"拜託再給我這一分鐘。對,我最後要趕快跟他下一個結論齁。一方面部長我請你回答,二方面我剛剛提到的這幾個問題我希望你心上的"},{"start":640.51,"end":651.568,"text":"新氣象的一天你能夠除了據時的答覆我同時是不是一個月內能夠對我提的這幾項給我一個具體的答覆你的看法呢?"},{"start":653.039,"end":669.809,"text":"謝謝委員的指教。委員對於一百零七年的有關那個所得稅的稅率從七十百分之四十五降為百分之四十這個部分當時是所得稅制整體的一個考量的一個優化並不是只就這一項那包含在營所稅的部分也從17%提升到20%另外對於標準"},{"start":672.911,"end":689.016,"text":"表準扣除額以及相關的薪資所得特別扣除額還有幼兒特別扣除額等等都有把它拉高。這個部分就是說對於所得低的部分我們也把它能夠扣減的數字可以增加,那可以減少它的繳稅的負擔。所以那一次的所得稅制的優化是整體的考量。"},{"start":692.657,"end":696.038,"text":"從45%降為40%這個部分事實上是確實流財攬財希望能有更多人在台灣來然後投資那也跟委員報告事實上這0.85%的人他繳了我們45%的所得稅所以其實所得高的人他其實交了稅是交了大部分的稅而對於沒有達到一定的我們的課稅門檻的其實他都不用繳所得稅這個部分是跟委員報告"},{"start":719.306,"end":742.8,"text":"那另外跟委員報告就是您剛剛提到的加薪減稅的部分這一次在經濟部修正中小企業發展條例裡面對於您剛剛提到那些不合理的門檻財政部也同意經濟部的意見把這個門檻可以取消掉那同時呢對於加薪的減成的數額提高還有適用的年限拉長這個部分財政部都同意經濟部相關的一個意見那目前也在立法院的一個審議當中那剛剛委員所提到的有關"},{"start":745.942,"end":745.962,"text":"謝謝委員。"},{"start":777.486,"end":779.018,"text":"好,本日議程詢答到這裡齁"}]}},{"id":"152698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5832cc59a4c15549bb24e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d261851429c243362692245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"16:08:55 - 16:16:01","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":426,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T16:16:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T16:08:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（16時8分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。財政收支劃分法25年沒有修正了，這樣的一個情況，對越偏遠的縣、越偏遠的鄉就更不利了，基本上會是這樣，所以這個部分財政部這邊要積極一點，如果你們的版本很難拿出來的話，就應該要依立法委員的版本，看怎麼樣去做最好的修正。","有關原住民族的部分，憲法增修條文第十條規定的很清楚，要積極維護發展原住民族語言及文化。然後，憲法增修條文第十條第十二項也明定「國家應依民族意願，保障原住民族之地位及政治參與，並對其教育文化、交通水利、衛生醫療、經濟土地及社會福利事業予以保障扶助並促其發展，其辦法另以法律定之。」這些都是需要經費才有辦法，之所以憲法增修條文會把它列進去，就是這些都是需要積極辦理的部分。根據憲法增修條文，其辦法另以法律定之，所以有了原住民族基本法。","原住民族基本法裡面定了很多需要做的事情，基本上主要就在這個部分，甚至對於交通水利等相關需求，包括很多工程建設，原基法也規定了要成立建設基金，但是這個基金到現在也沒有成立。所以第一個，財劃法25年來沒有修正，我過去也提出針對原住民族地區的財劃法修正條文，也都沒有機會，然後原基法也明定應該設置原住民族建設基金，但政府不成立也不訂辦法。所以這個部分就是我剛剛一開始講的，財劃法25年來沒有修，越偏遠的縣市、越偏遠的鄉，那絕對是最不利的，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，對於原住民這部分有一些相關的規定，尤其在地方制度法裡面也有一些規定。另外，當然這部分有原基法或憲法裡面對原住民傳統領域或是地區的保障，至於財劃法的部分，它有一個功能就是要調劑盈虛，促進均衡的發展，所以我想在這個部分，對原住民區域發展所需要的經費，依照現行的地制法已經有所規定了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們今天的報告裡面，你們的結論說還要再討論，這個部分已經討論二十……不要說二十幾年了，最起碼我從第8屆當立法委員就開始，各地方的立委都一直提，原住民的立委也提，始終沒有辦法。所以這個部分就誠如我剛剛講的，如果你們因為考慮很多，拿不出版本的話，就希望能夠支持原住民立委的版本，就以今天來講，也有原住民的版本。","所以，針對原住民族地區，你們提到地方制度法，事實上地方制度法也沒有辦法解決嘛。也沒有辦法解決，所以不要去談那個地方制度法。這個部分就像我剛剛講的，我們就講離島好了，離島那部分也是，離島建設基金早就用光了，因為好多年了，也都不修。當然，我有提出離島建設基金的修正條文。所以，類似像這些問題，必須要正式的去面對，部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。我想原住民地區，尤其在直轄市裡面的原住民區，因為它不是一個地方自治團體，不是稅課收入劃分跟參與分配的主體，那部分跟地制法有關係，我想這個部分可能要併同地制法那邊去做考量的，對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，原來的山地鄉有包含，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對不對？原來的山地鄉有包含，但是後來因為成立五都的時候，有一部分的山地鄉就變成山地區了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，劃進去了，變成區了，對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以它本來是在財劃法的範圍裡面的，因為地方制度法的修正，結果就不見了，所以這個部分應該要去面對……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。瞭解。是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：應該去修法，因為地方制度法基本上並沒有去做財源的主要規劃。"],["莊部長翠雲：地方制度法裡面有規定，直轄市必須對……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不夠啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：山地原住民區予以設算補助，其補助之項目、程序、方式及其他相關事項，都要跟山地原住民區協商，所以在這部分有……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，時間的關係，要趕高鐵了。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是我趕高鐵，他要趕高鐵。最後一句話，我就舉例，譬如說0403地震，受損的建物房屋稅免收，對不對？那地方怎麼辦呢？那是很窮困的鄉鎮，所以中央就應該去補助，地方稅減少了就應該去補助，尤其是花蓮縣更窮困的這些鄉，好不好？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請賴惠員委員。今天的質詢到在場的王世堅委員發言完畢為止，時間可能會延長幾分鐘。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.047218750000001,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.607843750000001,"end":8.232218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.459093750000001,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.19721875,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.84596875,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.090343750000002,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.44846875,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.32596875,"end":31.148468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.941593750000003,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.47721875,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.502218750000004,"end":36.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.290968750000005,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.38284375,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.393468750000004,"end":57.743468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.62096875,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.04221875,"end":68.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.53909375,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.04471875,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.23221875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.48471875,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.64784375,"end":112.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.48596875000001,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.23596875000001,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.45096875,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.47596875,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.04534375,"end":125.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.69909375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.76221875,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.61409375,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.12846875,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.91721875000002,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.44034375,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.79409375,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.65471875,"end":140.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.98784375,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.05471875,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.45096875000002,"end":161.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.65971875,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.95471875,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.28659375,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.54346875000002,"end":182.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.61846875,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.71909375,"end":202.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.20596875,"end":206.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.13784375,"end":218.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.94596875000002,"end":222.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.40971875000002,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.37534375,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.33284375000002,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.89784375000002,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.79096875000002,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.05659375000002,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.66409375,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.40909375,"end":270.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.48221875,"end":278.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.49784375,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.17221875,"end":286.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.83409375,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.56346875,"end":293.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.77409375,"end":295.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.93409375000005,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.59471875,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.62846875,"end":307.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.89846875,"end":313.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.75409375000004,"end":317.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.92221875,"end":324.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.56659375000004,"end":326.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.66346875,"end":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﹝﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞�"},{"start":271.787,"end":289.156,"text":"本院委員賴士葆等29人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":291.618,"end":292.238,"text":"本院委員賴士葆等"},{"start":314.123,"end":336.765,"text":"地方自治團體稅客收入劃分跟參與那個分配的一個主體那跟地質法有關係我想這個部分可能要地質法那邊要並同去做考量的對那個部長是這個原來的山地鄉有包含對不對對對那原來的山地鄉有包含"},{"start":337.762,"end":366.631,"text":"但是後來因為成立五都的時候成立五都的時候有一部分的山地鄉就變成山地行政山地區所以它本來是在財劃法的範圍裡面的那因為這個地方制度法的修正結果就不見了所以這個部分所以應該去面對啊應該去修法而不是因為地方制度法基本上"},{"start":367.891,"end":396.182,"text":"並沒有去做財源的主要的一個規劃。他有在裡面規定就只想要是必須對山住民,要設算補助。那他的方式項目跟程序都要跟山住民區來做協商。之前的關係要趕高鐵了。不是我趕高鐵,他要趕高鐵了。最後一句話,最後一句話。我就舉例子。譬如說04、03地震那個房屋稅"},{"start":397.455,"end":397.855,"text":"今天的質詢到這場"}]}},{"id":"152697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58397988a7270d7f2224e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d26185ae5e27c9773548e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"15:58:18 - 16:08:48","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":630,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T16:08:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:58:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（15時58分）主席、各位同仁。主席，我想邀請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長好。部長，恭喜你就任。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們今天主要是審查財政收支劃分法，財政部過去喊出六大修法原則，分別是提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎、調劑財政盈虛、保障既有財源、精進分配機制及地方財源不減，但是這些都僅僅停滯在空泛的口號，欠缺實際的計算公式跟具體作法。因為部長剛剛在回復所有委員的質詢時都有提到，現在財政部才剛要開始展開版本的作業，所以意思是說就是沒有版本……"],["莊部長翠雲：之前已經作業了。"],["顏委員寬恒：已經作業了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，已經作業了。"],["顏委員寬恒：但是版本還沒有出來，對不對？所以我們現在還看不到院版。財政收支劃分法（簡稱財劃法）是在40年6月制定到現在，這個部分在剛剛也有提到啦，過去是6比4，但是在民國88年精省之後，把精省過程當中的15%，總收入的15%又納入中央，所以變75比25，現在變75比25，所以中央越來越有錢，地方越來越窮，但人口增加，然後地方的財政困難，剛剛也有委員提到，所有的除了軍事、國防之外，都是地方機關在做，不管是教育、衛生，各個部都一樣，都是地方機關、人事在做這樣的服務。所以對於現在的財劃法，我們的版本就是要把所得稅總收入的25%，以及營業稅總收入減除依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後的全部收入（百分之百），以及貨物稅總收入的10%。以113年度全國總收入15%的規模來計算，中央至少要還給地方政府五千一百多億，讓統籌稅款的規模從現在的三千七百多億能夠擴增到八千九百億，請教部長，您認同這個將15%還給地方政府的版本嗎？你認不認同？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，沒有所謂的還給地方政府，也就是說，委員說的這15%可能是算精省前跟精省後的一個差距……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，沒有錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是精省的時候，省政府原來做的一些事項以及它的負債，都是中央承接了，至於地方政府去做原來省的業務的部分，中央是給予補助的，所以事權跟錢其實要相對應，是要相對應的……"],["顏委員寬恒：這個我剛剛在聽你的答詢都有聽到啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，所以要相對應的。"],["顏委員寬恒：事實上，省政府就是地方政府，省跟直轄市的位階是同等的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，但是後來精省以後，它的相關職責都由中央來承接了。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，所以我們更要說了，現在是繳稅季，我們現在辛辛苦苦把這些稅金交給中央政府，那中央如何補助地方或者是分回？主要有三大類嘛，統籌分配款、一般補助款及計畫性補助款，一般性補助款是縣市政府的稅收上繳中央之後，中央再依財劃法的公式計算比例後配撥給地方政府，屬於地方政府應得的財源。以臺中市為例，每年上繳給中央的是1,400億，過去4年累計將近6,000億，但是中央補助地方每案的額度都不盡相同，我要再說一次，一年是1,400億，4年的話就是將近6,000億了，但分給臺中市的每年不到1,000億，不到1,000億！所以我想要請部長做一個持平的說法，你認為這樣子對臺中市是不是不公平？當然，像我們召委是新北市，還有很多臺北市的委員，很多其他縣市的委員，各縣市、22縣市沒有一個人覺得是公平的。我們上繳的錢太多了！我們地方要做的事情太多了！但錢都在中央，所以請部長你持平的講，對臺中市或對其他縣市來講是不是不公平？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，每一個區域的立委都會為他的區域來爭取……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，沒有錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們可以理解，這是爭取資源，但是臺灣每一個區域、每一個縣市的自然環境也好，工商發展條件也不同，在這個部分差距這麼大的情況下，財政收支劃分法就有一個要調劑盈虛的功能，然後要促進區域之間的均衡發展，這個部分是要做到的。","另外就是說，在事權的部分，中央所承擔的事權及地方所承擔的事權，跟錢之間的分配也要有關聯，因為有很多事情是屬於中央在做的，所以中央也需要一定的財政能量跟財政韌性。大家都會覺得說自己的縣市分配得不夠多，我想這個部分我可以理解，這也就是說，我們在水平分配的時候必須要有一個很清楚、很明確的指標，讓大家都可以覺得可以有一個共識來做，但是我知道難度非常高啦，因為大家都會為自己的縣市來爭取比較好的資源，這是可以理解的。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，我再請教有關土地增值稅的部分，土地增值稅是地方稅，是不是地方稅？對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，是地方稅。"],["顏委員寬恒：是地方稅嘛，就是地價稅、田賦，還有房屋稅之類的，都是地方稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：本席認為這部分應該百分之百要都歸給地方政府才對，為什麼中央還要抽走20%來做統籌分配呢？這是什麼法？"],["莊部長翠雲：抽走了以後其實又分配下去，還是分配下去，不是中央要拿走，所以對於這個稅收怎麼分成，就是稅收分成的部分，將來也會在我們這邊一起考慮，要不要直接分，還是說，因為土增稅本來就是地方的……"],["顏委員寬恒：你拿走了它的20%，然後也是一樣20%還給它嗎？並不是嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是還給它啦！"],["顏委員寬恒：並不是嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊，是分給其他縣市……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以一樣就等於是說，這是地方稅，可是有20%必須由中央來做統籌分配……"],["莊部長翠雲：再分配出去，還是分配出去的，會到縣市裡面去。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是為什麼要這樣，比如說土地的地價稅增加，這些應該是地方政府努力施政得到的重要成果，臺北市的成果、臺中市的成果，然後我不知道你要分配到哪裡，這怎麼公平呢？你要怎麼做，這叫黑箱嗎？我可以說它是黑箱嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，分配的話都是按照公式來分配的，其實在分配的時候有一個很重要的觀念，也就是……"],["顏委員寬恒：城市治理！部長，你很清楚，對不對？城市治理……"],["莊部長翠雲：城市治理，要努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然各縣市都不一樣啦，直轄市有它的優點，包括人口集中還有都會發展，所以它都市治理之後的成果一定會比較豐碩。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：它的地價稅、土地增值稅比較高，可是你卻要拿去做它不知道或者它也不能夠瞭解的這些統籌分配，這我覺得不公平，所以中央不能拿走這20%啦！部長，這個部分我極力的要求，在我們未來的、新的院版出來，我們財政部對於財政收支劃分法、統籌分配款等這一些要做一個全面的設計啦！好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，會，要的。"],["顏委員寬恒：這一定要做一個全面的設計……"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的建議。"],["顏委員寬恒：因為時過境遷那麼久了，民國40年6月到民國88年精省，然後一直到現在，對不對？從6比4到75比25，沒有得到一個合理、公正，大家可以認同的分配比例，當然剛剛也有提到各縣市有各縣市的堅持，每個立委有每個立委的一個責任，但是我相信只要提出院版，然後跟黨團的版本一起來做磋商，我們討論出一個最好的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，我再來要請教的是，我們的財劃法已經25年沒有修正了嘛，所以我們期待一個健全財政的統籌法的新版本。根據政府公布的國債鐘，截至5月10日，中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額為5.9938兆啦，將近6兆，對不對？對此國人都十分關注，可不可以請部長簡單說明一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們的長期債務是5兆9,938億，這個部分在5月、6月大額稅款進來的時候，我們就會優先去做還債，會做還債。我們對債務的控管其實都一直要符合公共債務法的規定，我們現在距離公共債務法的空間其實還有，我們目前實際的債務比率是26%而已，公共債務法的規定是40.6%，我們實際債務占我們GDP的比率是百分之二十六點多。"],["顏委員寬恒：我要這麼講啦，因為每一年都超徵，民眾在意的就是政府今年又從民眾身上拿了多少錢，連續三年超徵接近1.3兆，對不對？我們上次才討論過。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是超徵，我們稅款的每一塊錢都是依法來徵收的……"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，沒有錯啊，就超徵嘛！超徵1.3兆。"],["莊部長翠雲：只是說收的數額比預算數來得高，那是超過預算數的部分。"],["顏委員寬恒：今天是新政府上臺的第一天，所以我們所有的委員、我們立法院的同仁都希望，尤其財政部，財政部掌管整個國家的財政大權，如何照顧人民，如何法令健全，如何優化我們的財政，這個才是最重要的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的質詢，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請鄭天財委員，發言時間5加1分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.22471875,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.446593750000002,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.403468750000002,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.932218750000004,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.11346875,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.32846875,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.97346875,"end":61.219718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":64.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.45159375,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.14971875,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.78971875,"end":112.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.95846875000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.59096875,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.02534375,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.75096875000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.49221875,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.26346875000002,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.26721875,"end":188.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.27471875,"end":169.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.20409375,"end":195.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.60034375,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.03846875000002,"end":199.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.14784375000002,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.20221875000001,"end":211.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.06534375,"end":246.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.03034375000001,"end":249.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.32534375,"end":265.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.06534375,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.88784375,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.98846875000004,"end":276.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.00034375,"end":277.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.52346875,"end":278.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.83534375,"end":292.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.29471875,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.84596875,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.60659375,"end":322.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.95096875,"end":340.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.79846875000004,"end":326.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.02409375,"end":342.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.75784375,"end":345.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.88409375000003,"end":347.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.90909375,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.93409375000005,"end":352.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.36846875000003,"end":356.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.56596875,"end":356.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.75159375000004,"end":356.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.76846875,"end":363.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.80221875,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.92346875000004,"end":365.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.30721875,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.91471875,"end":366.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.87659375000004,"end":366.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.11284375,"end":383.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.87409375000004,"end":387.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.99159375000005,"end":388.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.05471875,"end":395.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.06721875000005,"end":389.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.33284375000005,"end":390.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.45096875,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.56034375,"end":392.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.34471875,"end":399.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.33596875,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.63096875,"end":405.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.09409375,"end":410.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.05534375,"end":411.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.47721875,"end":420.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.40409375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:388.25,"end":388.27,"text":"﹚顏寬恒"},{"start":407.015,"end":431.744,"text":"拜訪政府努力施政得到了重要成果嘛。台北市的成果、台中市的成果,然後我不知道你要分配到哪裡。這怎麼公平呢?你要怎麼做?這叫黑箱嗎?我可以說它是黑箱嗎?沒有分配的話都是按照公式來分配的。公式來分配。然後其實在分配的時候其實有一個很重要的觀念。城市治理部長,部長你有清楚對不對?城市治理當然..."},{"start":432.424,"end":432.864,"text":"委員賴士葆等"},{"start":452.031,"end":475.741,"text":"他不知道或者是他也不能夠了解的這些統籌分配這我覺得不公平所以中央不能拿走這20%啦我用部長這個要我極力的要求這個部分在我們未來的這個新的院板出來我們財政部對於我們財政收支劃分法統籌分配款這一些我們要做一個全面的設計啦"},{"start":476.981,"end":505.488,"text":"好不好?會長。這一定要做一個決定的收支。因為時過境遷那麼久了。民國40年6月到民國88年精神一直到現在。對不對?從6比4到75比25。那沒有得到一個合理公正大家可以認同的。當然剛剛也有提到各縣市有各縣市的堅持。每個立委有每個立委的一個責任。但是我相信只要提出院版然後大家跟黨團的版本來做一個磋商。我們討論出一個最好的。好不好?"},{"start":505.728,"end":506.289,"text":"好,謝謝委員,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。"},{"start":515.947,"end":532.996,"text":"已經25年沒有修正所以我們期待一個健全財政的統籌法新的版本根據政府公布的國債中截至5月10日中央政府一年以上債務月償還的餘額為5兆,5.9938兆這6兆,這接近6兆對不對,國民都十分關注可不可以請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":545.226,"end":567.344,"text":"顏寬恒委員報告我們的長期債務是5兆9938億那這個部分我們會在5月6月的時候大額稅款進來的時候我們就會去優先去做還債會做還債那我們對債務的控管其實都一直要符合公共債務法的規定那我們現在距離公共債務法的一個空間其實還有我們目前實際的債務比例是26而已"},{"start":570.487,"end":572.192,"text":"公共債務法是40.6,但是我們實際債務佔我們GDP的比例是26點多。"},{"start":576.877,"end":595.815,"text":"我要這麼講啦,因為每一年都超徵齁,民眾在意的就是你政府今年又從民眾身上拿了多少錢。連續三年超徵接近1.3兆對不對?對不對?我們上次在討論過。不是超徵,我們的稅款每一塊錢都是依法來取消的。對啦,沒有錯啊,就超徵啦。超徵1.3兆。只是說收的金額比預算數來的高,那是超過預算數的部分。"},{"start":601.681,"end":620.786,"text":"今天是新政府上台的第一天,所以我們所有的委員、立法院的同仁都希望說,尤其財政部,財政部掌管了整個國家的財政大權,那如何照顧人民,如何法令健全,如何優化我們的財政,這個才是最重要的,好不好?好,謝謝委員的提取,謝謝,謝謝委員。謝謝。現在質詢請鄭天"}]}},{"id":"152696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583e1cddbc503e56b7a4e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d2618513912a9c72435c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"15:46:50 - 15:58:09","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":679,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:58:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:46:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時46分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我看到你剛才不斷地、一直重複強調說，給地方政府的錢越來越多。可是依據最新的資料來看，統籌分配稅款就是75%、25%，而1999年是60%、40%啊！不管你怎麼講，數字就在這裡啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：就是你給了，結果你拿75%，還是頭重腳輕啊！難怪政府、國家會辛苦，因為通通抓在你手上！老實講，你們有很多事情是地方政府幫你們做，比如打疫苗，衛福部的錢也是撥到地方政府衛生局，你何不乾脆給它？你們新聞稿都沒有看嗎？認真講起來，中央部會有的，地方都有啊，除了國防、外交、陸委會沒有以外，其他通通都有，對不對？每一個縣市都有啊，財政局、財政部，產發局、經濟部產發局，都有啊，除了國安這一塊沒有以外！所以你何必扛那麼大呢？還被人家罵得要死！以現在來講，請問可不可以回到1999年的60%、40%？"],["莊部長翠雲：當時中央、地方的比為60%比40%，但後來精省了。因為精省的時候，省的業務與負債全部由中央承受，部分由地方政府辦……"],["賴委員士葆：地方也承接很多啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央會透過補助的方式給地方政府。所以在精省的時候，省的部分是由中央來承接了，這部分有做調整。至於未來中央統籌分配稅款的75%、25%比例部分，當然，看中央統籌分配稅款是這樣，但是對地方政府的挹注，我已經說過，包含一般性補助款跟專案性補助款，事實上比起來，已經接近60%比40%了。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，是65%對35%啦，早上我們才查的，少了5%！是65%對35%……"],["莊部長翠雲：58.9%跟41.1%。"],["賴委員士葆：還是很多，5%還是很多！請問你，財政部有沒有提出財劃法版本？有沒有？有沒有在研究？"],["莊部長翠雲：有在展開，但目前來說沒有版本，因為第一，我們要先把水平分配的部分分配好；分配好以後……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，這是刁難的話！"],["莊部長翠雲：不足的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：講到水平，你應該知道這裡面的矛盾就在水平！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，矛盾就是在水平，所以要先有一個公式……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有能力來協調，以我們立委們來說，顏寬恒委員一定要替臺中市講話，羅明才委員一定要替新北市講話，賴士葆一定要替臺北市講話，水平怎麼擺的平呢！要先給錢下來，請問你現在有沒有公式？你告訴我，有沒有公式？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有公式嘛！就完全看你高興來給，你不是說要發展一個公式嗎？你剛才一直講有公式、有公式，怎麼現在又沒有了呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是講水平分配的這個公式。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：水平分配，就是地方政府之間水平分配的公式，要有一個明確的公式來做分配，而這個公式裡面的相關指標要非常明確。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你現在沒有公式，現在你怎麼分配？現在你怎麼分配？就隨便，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有隨便。"],["賴委員士葆：想到就給？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會隨便的。"],["賴委員士葆：不然你沒有公式怎麼給呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是講哪一個？"],["賴委員士葆：水平分配啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：水平分配，現在中央統籌分配稅款就有公式啊，一般性補助款也有公式啊，但是大家都……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼又講說沒有？怎麼一下子、有一下子沒有，到底有沒有？有沒有公式？"],["莊部長翠雲：我先這樣講，現行它有公式，但是各位委員也好，地方政府也好，都覺得這個公式目前來說有不均的情況，所以才會提出很多意見，認為要修財劃法……"],["賴委員士葆：那你提一個版本……"],["莊部長翠雲：現在我們必須要對這個分配公式重新研議……"],["賴委員士葆：請你提一個版本把公式變成法律案，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，所以我們現在……"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以？可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們現在進行的就是這件事。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們這個部分，第一個已經跟地方政府……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼時候可以出來要看共識什麼時候能夠集約到最小……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候？什麼時候？三個月可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：三個月？這個時間表我很難在這邊說明，為什麼？因為地方政府目前提出來的指標差距還是很大，所以我們目前要把各個指標釐清以後，然後集約成一個很好、更好的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：比較重要的應該是中央先剁一塊肉給地方啦，怎麼分配那是另外的事情，他們去分配啦，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，中央如果……"],["賴委員士葆：垂直分配比較重要啦，你捨不得割肉給地方！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央如果先割一塊肉給地方去分配，那會富者越富、貧者反而沒有得好處。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會呢？怎麼會富者越富……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為現在的分配公式會有這樣的一個情形，所以並不適合這樣做，而……"],["賴委員士葆：那你剛才已經講了啊，你可以用一般計畫或者是專案計畫補回來啊，這都可以補啊，對不對？所以這個東西，這非常不負責任啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都已經積極在展開作業當中了。"],["賴委員士葆：我相信這個不需要你的卓院長來要求你吧？到時候我們總質詢時會問卓院長他什麼時候可以提出來，他可以一聲令下，你馬上就有！我們就看到囤房稅2.0，我們這裡十幾個版本，你理都不理，這個、那個的一堆理由，結果賴清德選舉的時候一聲令下，你馬上就出來了，馬上就通過了！部長，你不能這樣做啊！財政部長要有一點肩膀，有一點自己的一個主張啊！你完全是聽上面的！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們確實在做了，我們目前已經在作業了。"],["賴委員士葆：你都不敢……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經在作業了。"],["賴委員士葆：我相信今天如果卓榮泰告訴你的話，你下個禮拜就提出來了，我保證，我跟你保證！"],["莊部長翠雲：如果都出來，如果地方政府都沒有其他意見的話……"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你保證，他要求的話，一個禮拜以內就出來！沒關係，我們總質詢時來要求卓院長。現在地方政府，其實地方大家都很憤怒，中央最可惡的地方就在於經常是德政都是你啊，你贏得掌聲啦，但付錢的都是地方政府！這次的里長加給7.5萬就是如此啊！然後我們有些委員說這個稅減少、那個稅減少，你們減少了，結果這個錢通通是地方政府在買單！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：有啊，怎麼沒有？里長的7.5萬就是啊！就是啊，怎麼不是呢？所以我的……"],["莊部長翠雲：稅款的部分，稅款如果我們這邊調整的話，稅法裡面都必須要彌補財源給它的。"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講，我再給你看你的表啦，你們說每一年的統籌分配稅款都增加，但是106年是減少0.6%耶，109年減少3.3%，地方政府他們的預算都編好了，結果你突然減少了，怎麼辦呢？106年減少、109年減少，其他是增加，但問題是這幾年怎麼辦呢？你以後會不會再產生這樣的情況呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：減少的部分是因為稅收短收了，所以就會減少，因此我們在編預算的時候，第一個，我們今年的，譬如說114年編好預算以後，我們就會先通知各地方政府預計會有多少收入，如果實際上的實徵數沒有那麼多的話，那確實就會減少。"],["賴委員士葆：那怎麼辦？地方政府怎麼辦呢？預算都編好了，結果你現在錢的來源少了，怎麼辦呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊，中央政府也是編好了，錢也少了，一樣啊！"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我覺得我對你越來越失望，這麼重要的財劃法，到現在為止竟然你心裡都沒有半點的譜，今天我們羅召委拿出勇氣、拿出他的guts來排審這個案子，財劃法已經修了十幾年都修不過，就是因為水平，每一個立委大家的看法都不一樣。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你要有版本嘛，不是你說怎麼樣怎麼樣等等的，我們在修這個，這是我第一次看到財政部這麼不負責任，我們每次修財劃法都有財政部的版本，只有你這次沒有啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不能一直講是啊，你要回應一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊，我跟委員報告，我們已經在積極的作業，修法原則也已經出來了，在水平分配的部分也已經把相關的指標提出請地方政府表示，所以我們一直在作業當中。"],["賴委員士葆：你用一句話叫「烏龍繞桌」，哪裡說水平的想法跟我們的想法完全不一樣，剛好upside down，剛好是完全顛倒了，要先割一塊肉出來啦，李述德當初就是割962億給地方，我就想說你怎麼不學學李述德，可以聰明一點啊，你說「好，我割多少給地方，割完後擺不平是你家的事情」，你的責任就可以推掉了啊，對不對？你現在講說一定要等到大家都一致，我就告訴你，那一天不會來臨，大家都滿意的那一天不會來臨，那一天不會來臨！你知道嗎？因為他如果同意的話，回去會被打死，知道嗎？那一天不會來臨，要等到大家都有共識就不用修了，我就告訴你，這個財劃法就不要修了！","我現在就跟你講，你不提沒關係，我們一定要先把中央剁一塊肉下來給地方政府，不公平啊，什麼事情都是地方政府在做，然後你權力這麼大，抓在手上，讓地方政府都是求爺爺告奶奶的來跟你要錢，這種東西要的都沒有尊嚴啦！為了地方建設，奇奇怪怪，你說要建設什麼建設，建設那個、建設這個，是不是？國安的問題當然中央來做，但是太多都是地方政府在做，包括剛剛講的，你說你們要做長照，長照也是透過地方衛生局在做的啊，基本上都是地方在做的啊！","我再強調一遍，只有國防、外交、國安方面地方做不了，要國家來做、要中央來做，這一部分真的中央在做，其他都是給地方啦！什麼時代了還抓那麼緊，這種東西你沒有下放、錢沒有下放，就代表集權跟集錢，這個在新政府還是一樣，還是鐵板一塊……"],["莊部長翠雲：不會、不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我會盯這個事情的。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 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文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":504.949,"end":532.307,"text":"今天我們羅昭偉這個拿出勇氣拿出他的膽子來排這個這個排列是我們已經修了十幾年都修不過就是因為水平每一個立委大家的看法都不一樣這時候你但是你要版本嘛不是你說說說說怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣等等的我們在修這個第一次我看到財政部這麼不負責任的我們每次修草案法都有財政部的版本只有你這次沒有啊"},{"start":534.144,"end":559.378,"text":"不能講意思是啊,你回應一下是啊,我跟委員報告我們已經在積極的作業之後修法原則也已經出來了那在公水平分配的部分也已經把相關的指標請地方政府表示所以我們一直在作業你有一句話叫歐倫西道啊哪裡說水平先想法跟我們想法完全不一樣剛好upside down剛好是完全的顛倒了要先割一塊肉出來李素德當初就割962億的地方"},{"start":562.349,"end":585.495,"text":"我就想問你怎麼不學學理數的?可以聰明一點啦!你說好我搞多少個地方給我擬百分之百的事情啊!你聰明就可以退掉啦!你現在說我一定要等到大家都一致我就告訴你那一天不會來臨!大家都滿意那一天不會來臨!那一天不會來臨!你知道嗎?因為他如果同意的話當天給我發信!知道嗎?那一天不會來臨!"},{"start":590.782,"end":613.24,"text":"要等到大家都有公事,那就沒修了。我就告訴你這個法都不要修了,才會有,不要修了。但是,我現在就跟你講,你不提沒關係,我們一定要先把中央倒一塊樓下來給地方政府。不公平啊,什麼事情都地方政府在做,然後你權力這麼大,抓在手上。"},{"start":615.91,"end":626.074,"text":"讓這個地方政府都卻越幹了來跟你要錢。 讓這個地方政府都卻越幹了來跟你要錢。這東西要的都沒有尊嚴啊。 這東西為了地方建設奇奇怪怪。 你說要建設什麼建設?"},{"start":626.074,"end":642.519,"text":"建設那個建設這個國安的問題當然總要來做。 但是太多都是地方政府在做。 包括這個剛講的你說長照你們要做長照。 長照也是通過地方衛生局在做的啊。 都是基本上地方在做的啊。"},{"start":644.199,"end":669.267,"text":"我再強調一遍只有國防、外交、國安方面地方做不了要國家來做、中央來做這一部分真的中央要做其他都是給地方啦什麼時代了還抓那麼緊這東西你沒有下放錢沒有下放就代表集權跟集錢這個對在新政府還是一樣還是鐵板一塊我會聽這個事情的"},{"start":673.933,"end":674.582,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583b9c100ca212311174e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d26185dbf88ab0c805ad9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"15:37:10 - 15:46:41","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":571,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:46:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:37:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":159,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（15時37分）請莊部長、陳署長。"],["主席：請莊部長、陳署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，上個月4月1號本席在財政委員會有提出財劃法有關菸酒稅變革，剛剛在提案說明的時候也說了，希望財政部按照過往我們行政院的立場，就是把金馬地區所徵的80%菸酒稅給我們金馬地區使用，那時候有承諾帶回去研究，請問研究結果是怎樣呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您上次提到，就是這樣的意見，我們會在討論分配的時候一併討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：針對我們這一條，我有特別問的，你們有回去研究嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會一併的研究，不會只對單一的一條來做討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：今天你們的報告裡面有給了答案，就是納入考量，我給你們看一下，我提的是在福建省金門及連江二縣徵起收入減除百分之一作為稽徵及查緝經費後之百分之八十分配各該縣。其餘收入當然就給你們中央來統籌分配。這個東西我講過了，我一直一再的提，我剛在提案說明也說了，這個並不是要跟你們要更多，是把你們跟我們多拿的還給我們，就是菸酒公賣跟菸酒稅法施行以後的不一樣，您看本席所提的草案內容，如果按照本席所提的修法，事實上這也是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本，當然我們看到財政部也一直都是這樣在主張，只是二十多年來都沒有修的情況下，若跟現在的制度比較，事實上，我們也只有多增加12億元，您有看到嗎？以112年實徵數420億計算，原來是乘以19，等於6億，如果中央還是保有325億統籌，扣掉這80億，只有多增加12億，這對整體的影響是滿少的，這一點請您特別來幫我們關注一下，我剛說的沒錯吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯，因為菸酒專賣制度改制以後，對於金馬這邊的一個影響，所以目前在財劃法已經明定，對於我們在算基準財政收支差短的時候，金門現在他們所收的菸酒稅是不會納入收入額度，這個部分已經特別考量了。至於委員所提的這個建議，我們會一併納入研究考量。"],["陳委員玉珍：而且我剛剛有提到很多自治事項，包括自來水、包括大橋的維管等，其他縣市都是由中央幫各縣市政府出錢，我們金門縣卻是自己出。像部立金門醫院、國立金門大學，一個是國立教育部，一個是衛生福利部部立醫院，連金門醫院護士的留任獎金都是我們在出，而金門大學學生讀書的相關費用也是我們在出，所以我們給中央的應該不會少於這些錢，因此這部分請部長特別考量。在金門我們都說：不管怎麼樣，我們都是一家人。","請您看一下歷年來藍綠執政的調整比例。先看民國92年，財政部林部長提出減徵1%，分配80%給各該縣，所以財政部林全部長在第5屆立法院財政委員會提出的報告，跟本席的提案文字是一致的，這是林全部長提到的。你看，民國96年的財政部長是何志欽，他在第6屆立法院所提出的修法方向，跟我今天所提的文字也是一樣的，即80%分配給我們，所以不是只有101年規劃相同，是不分藍綠執政，行政院4次所提出的行政院版都與本席修法文字一致，也與現在的國民黨團、民眾黨團一致。但部長卻說分配比例，宜視整體分配機制研議結果酌定，部長，應該不用講得那麼保守吧？過去二十年不分藍綠，不分政黨都有這個立場，所以應該是支持吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：支持？那修法……"],["莊部長翠雲：應該一起來研議。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以要修法支持。今天本席這樣提，並不是要跟你爭取額外稅收，而是希望你們能落實承諾，沒問題吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，就是我們剛剛說，委員的意見其實與歷年的版本都一致……"],["陳委員玉珍：不管藍綠、不管行政院院長是誰，今年的國民黨及民眾黨都是按照原來提案提出，但財劃法一直都沒有修。我認為這是比較小的問題，如果可以的話就請支持我們的版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：如果可以的話，在稅收分配比例上，我們會一併研議……"],["陳委員玉珍：國庫署早上說依本席所提，中央要釋出三百多億，按照這個解釋我可以接受，多分一點我也是非常願意的。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著請教陳副主計長。"],["主席：部長請回。請陳副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：上回副主計長有去金門開會，對吧？那時候張景森政委……"],["陳副主計長慧娟：有在院裡面……"],["陳委員玉珍：由張景森政委所主持的。你那時候表示，針對地方所提出來財力級次分級……連自來水廠也叫我們出錢。現在財政部還跟我們要、叫我們墊，還要跟我們收利息。財政部長，上次有跟你講到利息部分，請部長幫我們研究一下。你們現在跟我們收利息？我們幫中央墊錢，你還跟我們收利息？尤其是自來水廠部分，請回去研究一下，我們幫你們墊錢，還要跟我們收利息？","根據媒體報導，主計總處陳慧娟副主計長表示，同意離島區有特殊性，要審慎進行研議，也就是財力級次分級問題。我們現在是第幾級？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：目前是第三級。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們要求降到第五級？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你上次不是說要進行研議嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們有在研議，因為財力分級是依地方制度法第六十九條規定為均衡發展起見，所以對地方政府按自有財源比例，也就是一個公式來算。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，這些我們都知道。你上次在政委主持的會議上說要研議，請問研議的進度怎麼樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們必須找出金門跟其他地方政府不同的特殊性……"],["陳委員玉珍：所謂的不同特殊性，就是我們現在越來越窮啊！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：地方政府都會喊窮，都說很窮……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們的窮是因為我們還幫了中央政府很多啊！主計總處是不是協助一下，譬如一些不應該我們負擔的部分，像自來水、大橋，這在別的縣市政府都是中央在負擔的，而金門縣卻是自己負擔，然後我們還要借錢給經濟部……是我們向財政部借錢給經濟部用，經濟部兩年後才要還我們，中間的利息還要金門縣政府來出，這個是不是比較特殊？有沒有哪一個縣市這樣做的？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：的確，從剛剛委員所提來看，屬於比較民生的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：對！用水！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：或者重大的交通建設……"],["陳委員玉珍：對！大橋！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：如果其他地方政府是由中央負擔的話，那這個部分我們目前就在研議，看金門是由……"],["陳委員玉珍：就民生用水，大橋啊！其他縣市都中央負擔，而我們是自己負擔，這部分就跟其他縣市很不一樣！所以我們的級次是不是要考慮調整？什麼時候研議出來？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們可能還需要一點時間……"],["陳委員玉珍：多久？沒關係，可以給你時間。多久？你給我押個時間就可以了。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：可以給我們半年的時間嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：半年？為什麼研議一個東西要半年啊？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為這問題……"],["陳委員玉珍：半年後你可能又升官了！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，因為財力級次會連動到其他地方政府，所以影響的層面比較廣。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼需要半年？現在是520，半年太久了！不過我可以給你久一點，沒關係，反正下會期我還在這裡。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：下會期9月開會，8月底以前給我，可以吧？給我好的答案？這樣很久了，6、7、8三個月了，沒有研議那麼久的。新的主計長要上任，我給他一點時間來瞭解，沒問題吧？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：給我們三個月時間，我們提出一個方向可以嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，提一個方向，而且是提出一個完整的方向！三個月很久，你要給我一個完整的答案，而且是一個好的答案。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：提出一個方向，一個努力的方向。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是努力的方向，是要給我一個答案，好不好？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：下一個質詢請賴士葆賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.56221875,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":3.8278437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.16534375,"end":5.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.498468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.92846875,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.869093750000001,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.75284375,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.245968750000003,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.60034375,"end":29.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.91659375,"end":29.933468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.18221875,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.37534375,"end":41.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.27346875,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.307218750000004,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.64409375,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.28534375,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":56.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.798468750000005,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.85721875,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.51659375,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.96159375,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.94596875,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.29534375,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.87284375,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.60846875000001,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.49284375000002,"end":163.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.85784375,"end":190.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.58721875,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.12284375000002,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.73284375,"end":181.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.03909375,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.88596875000002,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.40846875000003,"end":213.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.92159375,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.22034375,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.87221875,"end":233.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.32346875000002,"end":263.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.82096875,"end":269.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.07721875000004,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.32471875000005,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.09659375,"end":285.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.35784375000003,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.08346875,"end":285.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.55596875000003,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.40284375000005,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.19159375000004,"end":301.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.78596875,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.49721875,"end":315.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.20971875000004,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.13159375000004,"end":329.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.62096875000003,"end":329.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.75159375000004,"end":331.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.18596875000003,"end":331.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.75471875,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.91909375,"end":356.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.32784375,"end":344.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.00471875,"end":358.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.79346875000005,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.13909375000003,"end":363.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.34971875,"end":365.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.52659375,"end":366.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.82596875,"end":370.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.74096875000004,"end":372.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.17096875000004,"end":375.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.19159375000004,"end":376.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.87909375000004,"end":390.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.31159375000004,"end":395.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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.085,"text":"財政部長何志欽他所提出來也在立法院這是第六屆立法院這個怎麼樣你們的修法方向跟我今天所提的文字也是一樣的百分之八十分配給我們那也不是只有101年在下院您看不管是藍綠執政你們行政院所提的四次的修法版本都跟我今天提出的修法版本是一致的包括今天國民黨法案民眾黨法案也是一致的所以說"},{"start":262.625,"end":262.865,"text":"議員賴士葆等"},{"start":293.41,"end":293.673,"text":"沒問題的喔?"},{"start":295.236,"end":322.928,"text":"拜託就是我們剛剛說我們會委員的意見以及歷年其實跟原來的版本對阿不管藍綠的行政院院長喔不管國民黨今年的國民黨民眾黨喔我們都是按照這個原來的提案嘛只是說一直沒有修這個財化法這是比較小的問題啦如果說可以的話要跟我們多支持我們就看一下如果可不可以在稅收分配比例上可以的話我們會一邊拿如果國庫署早上有說本席所提的是要中央支出300多億如果按照那個解釋我也是可以接受多分一點我也是非常願意的齁陳署長齁"},{"start":324.528,"end":324.769,"text":"副主席長"},{"start":336.935,"end":358.3,"text":"陳副主席長,您上回有去金門開會嘛,對吧?就是那時候張景森政委﹖我在院裡面﹖我帶我回來主持會,張景森政委主持的嘛。您那時候有表示針對我們地方所提出來的財力集市分級的部分,那時候我們提出一些,包括自來水廠。自來水廠的話也叫我們出錢,然後現在財政部還要跟我們要,這個叫我們墊啦。"},{"start":361.181,"end":361.481,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":378.432,"end":395.063,"text":"副主席長您上次有說了根據媒體報導主計總署陳慧娟副主長表示同意離島具有特殊性要審慎進行研議就是有關這個財力集市分級我們現在是第幾級目前是第三級那我們是要求降到第五級對吧"},{"start":396.82,"end":417.2,"text":"對,對,好,那你上次不是說要進行研議嗎?我們有在研議,因為基本上這個財力分歧是地方制度法69條要均衡發展嘛,所以基本上我們就是對地方政府是按自有財源的比例,就是一個公式來算。我知道,我知道,我都知道,這些我們都知道,但是你上次已經在政委主持的會議說要研議了,研議的進度怎麼樣呢?"},{"start":417.961,"end":440.896,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":440.976,"end":441.516,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":460.71,"end":488.446,"text":"的確我們就是從剛委員所提的就是說屬於比較民生的部分或者是說重大的交通建設那如果說在其他地方政府是由中央來負擔的那個部分那這個部分我們就是目前就在研議基本是由哪一部分是屬於這個就這個民生動性的這個大橋啊其他縣市都中央在負擔叫我們自己負擔啊那這個部分就跟其他縣市很不一樣"},{"start":489.346,"end":495.204,"text":"所以我們的集市是不是要考慮調整?什麼時候演繹出來?我們可能還需要一點時間齁。多久?沒關係給你時間,多久?"},{"start":497.731,"end":519.289,"text":"你給我壓個時間就可以了。可以給我們半年的時間嗎?你可以看看。為什麼演繹一個東西要半年啊?因為這個問題我跟委員發…半年後你可能又升官了。跟委員發報,因為這個涉及到…因為這個財力集市會連動那其他的地方政府,所以它影響的層面比較廣。對,那為什麼需要半年?現在是520啦齁。"},{"start":521.391,"end":526.952,"text":"本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":549.634,"end":563.148,"text":"三個月給我們時間,我們提出一個方向,可以嗎?對,提一個方向,要提出一個完整的,三個月很久喔,也要給我一個完整的答案喔。提出一個方向,努力的方向。不是努力的方向,給我一個答案,好不好?好,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58368082db59a0c60364e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d261853da6a207a82d1db15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"15:27:51 - 15:36:43","影片長度":"00:08:52","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":532,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:36:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:27:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（15時27分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早，剛剛我在那邊坐著聽各個版本的修法說明，感覺上好像一群人圍著你要債耶！問題又不是你欠他們的，這就是當家困難啦！很多的指標不可以用單一的，我舉一個例子，你剛剛講到現在六都直轄市大概分配到百分之六十幾的統籌分配稅款，其他的是普通的縣市，可是你知道嗎？直轄市的總人口數占全國人口數百分之七十幾，所以你如果完全照人口數來分配，這樣地方窮的縣市就更窮了，六都分配的就更多了。","一個說法是把餅做大，就是垂直分配的問題，垂直分配又遇到很多問題，很多重大的公共建設根本就不用地方政府出錢，舉個例子，蓋高速公路、蓋機場哪裡有需要地方政府花錢？但是中央政府得出這條錢，譬如說新北市、臺北市在蓋捷運，其他很多的直轄市在蓋捷運，中央也都要出很大一筆的補助款，所以不是光用想像就拿一個數據來說這個縣市十幾年來繳了多少稅，只有分配到多少，不夠。我跟你說，他們分配的早就遠遠超過他們該拿的了，苗栗縣要反省的是，為什麼以前人事浮濫，花那麼多奇奇怪怪的錢，使得他們的財政困難，不然以前也沒有一個公式特別刁難苗栗縣，為什麼苗栗縣的財政狀況會特別的不好？難道你的公式裡面有講苗栗縣就是特別要少分嗎？恐怕不是這樣……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，都按公式……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以第一個問題是要瞭解，你個人認為在垂直分配上，中央有可能可以釋出的稅款比例，今天不講金額，而是講比例，因為講金額會隨著每一年稅收狀況不一樣而會有差別。你認為中央能夠釋出的財源大概會有哪一些範圍？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個，中央要釋出財源之前，我們希望把地方的一個水平分配先把它分配好，因為中央在釋出的時候，要考慮地方的一個需求，所以它的基本財政收支差短，我們要能夠先把它彌補，所以你要先分配、要怎麼樣分配，以後再來看中央怎麼樣可以釋出多少。","如果以今天我們的一個統計來看，中央如果統籌分配稅款加上一般性補助款、加上計畫型補助款，中央已經釋出了41.4%，也就是說，全部的收入裡面中央是58.9，地方是41……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是剛剛他們不是這樣講，剛剛是說中央75、地方25，你們都在勒死他們，你們把錢都拿到中央，你在集權、集錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：那個是只有統籌分配稅款，但是如果加上一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款，事實上是遠遠……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你要講清楚，因為今天來這邊講的人，我不敢說他講的一定是謊話，但是都講對自己有利的話，我在這裡20年了，20年來每一屆都在提財劃法，沒有一屆可以完成，無論是哪一個黨執政，原因就是在這裡，我跟澎湖的立委、我的好朋友楊曜在聊天，我問他為什麼當立委當那麼久不選澎湖縣長？他說不要開玩笑了，我們澎湖的自有財源一年才6億，當了立委，立委可以跟中央要補助款去地方，他反而認為這樣對他自己的澎湖會更有幫助，這是他的想法。所以你想想看，一個澎湖縣，假設如他說的，差不多自有財源才6億，一年光是公教人員的薪水，它絕對都付不起啦！一個縣政府基本的開銷至少要幾十億、上百億才有辦法，所以一個很大的困難是，你與地方政府雖然是夥伴關係，但是因為每一個地方政府的狀況差距非常的大，也有的地方政府經過它的努力，譬如說剛剛陳委員講的，金門因為現在金酒公司的關係，認為它是多繳了，可是金門縣政府的社會福利，就是金門縣民的社會福利，現在據統計起來，已經是全臺灣地區最好的，還有好多臺灣人想要遷戶口去金門，希望可以當金門縣民，可是還要有一些門檻才有辦法完成，我是舉這樣子的例子來說明每一個縣市的差距非常的大，你這個水平的調查，第一個要先完成調查，調查之後才能跟大家來談，大家要什麼樣的公式來分配，而你這個調查要調查多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：調查的部分已經回來了，但是差距很大，每個地方政府所提的都是對它自己有利的來做這個指標；第二個，這指標內容詳細的定義是什麼也要釐清，所以這個部分，我們看到的是，第一個，差距是很大；第二個，對於各個指標內容的詳細情形，已經要有一個具體的，而且要有一個通用性的，不是只有……"],["吳委員秉叡：你工作的……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分已經都在進一步的釐清當中。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個要趕快去進行，因為已經低到時間上很急迫……"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！地方政府……"],["吳委員秉叡：如果行政院沒有辦法提出自己的版本，結果都被在野黨或是個別立委的版本拿出來，現在因為這樣的立法院，這樣的環境，然後在這個地方硬給你通過，你將來可是會窒礙難行喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：你得考慮到這個事情，所以那個時間你得把握。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果要講到每一個縣市自己來發言，我以前在臺北縣政府當機要秘書的時候就講了，臺北縣是廚房，那時候的臺北市是櫥窗，我們地方煮一煮之後，送到這個櫥窗來用、來吃，剛剛我們主席也有講，新北市現在四百多萬人口，結果我們的統籌分配稅款總數比臺北市還不足，當然以我們的瞭解，這是有歷史的因素。早年統籌分配稅款的分配，是臺北市、臺灣省、高雄市三個單位先做一級地方政府的分配，後來因為精省，所以各個縣市分配的比例才調整，可是在調整的時候，臺北市跟高雄市都不讓你調，他們都要儘量維持，所以上一次在民國88年，就是1999年的修法，在非常痛苦的情況之下，臺北市、高雄市才擠出、讓出一點點，然後還是中央把餅做大才有辦法修的，我現在要問，關於這個指標，請問臺北市願意跟其他縣市用相同的指標來辦嗎？來分配嗎？還是那句老話，臺北市老是講：我們是首都，所以我們就要特別好。那是當年臺北市立委講的話，今年你辦得到嗎？我覺得這是非常大的考驗，臺北市的立委可能只有8個，但聲量很大、音量很大。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，所以我們這裡是第一個，劃一分配的紀律，就直轄市跟縣市分配的基礎要一致。另外，精進的分配機制要更細一點，不是只有人口數。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果你的意思是這樣，我當然知道如果算人口數，對新北市是最好，我的意思是說，你能夠讓臺北市不要再認為它必須要優厚、獨厚於其他的縣市嗎？這是要考驗你的地方，所以這個大家都要加油，今天如果都沒有共識的狀況之下，就要來弄這個東西，弄出來的東西是窒礙難行的，這一點我們很欽佩羅召委，他自己也瞭解這個狀況，所以他們一直希望你趕快整合，進而提出行政院版本，這一點我們是支持的，好不好？加油！謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們不用急，我會給大家很多的時間，甚至我剛剛跟議事人員討論，如果需要的話，也可以開公聽會來聽聽22縣市的聲音，找到一個好的方法，把餅做大，因為這個不是一定誰贏、誰輸，是大家都要贏，所以希望以和諧、理性的方式來進行。","接著下一位請陳玉珍陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":4.7897187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.624718750000001,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.864718750000002,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.931593750000001,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.57659375,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.770343750000002,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.37346875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.887843750000002,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.579093750000002,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.47284375,"end":38.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.99534375,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.729093750000004,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.74971875,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.04471875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.461593750000006,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.16159375,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.164718750000006,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.58221875,"end":64.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.62846875000001,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.32846875,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.33221875000001,"end":78.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.82034375,"end":79.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.22534375000001,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.55846875,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.45221875,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.41784375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.62846875000001,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":109.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.95471875000001,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.93284375,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.06784375000001,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.45159375,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.81409375000001,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.67846875000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.32784375000001,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.61846875,"end":129.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.32284375,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.63846875000002,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.34284375000001,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.29159375,"end":142.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.12659375,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.75721875000002,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.77909375000002,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.81096875,"end":193.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.00034375,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.07596875000002,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.44721875000002,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.97846875000002,"end":203.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":205.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.80471875,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.10846875000001,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.12534375,"end":206.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.31034375000002,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.44096875000002,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.04846875,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.28409375,"end":217.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.00534375,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.42659375000002,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.04596875000001,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.05846875,"end":230.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.88096875000002,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.25159375,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEA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- 15:27:38","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":736,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:27:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:15:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（15時15分）謝謝主席，請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長你好。部長，我請教，前部長蘇建榮在任內的時候，曾經表示財劃法修法要有很大的協調空間，以當時整個時空的背景來看，是因為各地方政府討論統籌分配稅款分配公式時，都沒有統一的意見。請問部長，站在你的立場，你認為蘇前部長的看法有沒有道理？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，歷次行政院有提出版本，但是為什麼沒有完成修法通過，就是各地方政府有不同的意見，因為我知道各地方政府，其實我們的自然環境、工商發展條件不一，所以地方政府在提出分配的時候，都會就他們各自有利的指標來提出。"],["林委員德福：我知道，但要是大家都沒有共識，請問你有沒有其他的看法？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們現在正在努力的做，也就是財政部先請各地方政府對於有關提升財政自主還有公共建設的基本需求等等，提出指標來，指標提出來以後它所涵蓋的內容是什麼要更具體、更明確，所以我們也跟地方政府再進一步的釐清……"],["林委員德福：部長，依您現在的觀點，是不是一定要協調到統一的意見跟版本，財劃法修正草案才能成案，是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想在地方政府分配這個部分，最起碼我們要把共識凝聚起來，如果沒有共識的話……"],["林委員德福：如果這次有共識呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果這次有共識的話，我們在分配的部分就能夠得到一個很明確的公式，我覺得就可以往前推進做修法的動作。"],["林委員德福：如果是的話，你認為財政部短期內有提出修法的機會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們一直在努力，譬如說，我們已經提出規劃修法的原則，另外在地方政府的部分，已經請他們提供了相關的指標，目前這個指標其實還有很大的一個差距，所以我們會進一步的釐清，把指標之間的差距儘量縮小。"],["林委員德福：你認為以現在來看，行政院和財政部，你們有沒有修法的決心呢？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經在推展當中，我們剛剛報告已經積極地在展開當中了。"],["林委員德福：好，部長，媒體報導對於你回應外界財劃法修法，指出包含為地方增加財源等6大修法的原則，學者一致認為可以從此看出中央政府仍是集權、集錢的心態，不願意放權。我請問部長，對於學者認為你回應訴求──財劃法修正的內容，是中央集錢跟集權的心態，你認為是不是事實？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是這樣的。"],["林委員德福：如果不是事實，財政部又沒有積極主動修法的決心，請問部長，你又如何能夠讓各界信服呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法雖然沒有修正，但是透過中央統籌分配稅款，還有一般性的補助款，以及專案的補助，其實對於地方財政的挹注，已經有相當大的一個成長。"],["林委員德福：我瞭解啊，但問題是剛剛有委員提出來，像陳超明提到苗栗一年貢獻多少？結果補助了多少？那個落差很大。你說像嘉義、其他地方，本來它就收的很少，但是補助很多，那個落差讓人家一看就知道，這個好像是有黨派之分，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員您說的這個就涉及到所謂水平的一個分配，所以水平分配的公式……"],["林委員德福：所以說財劃法要是沒有擬定……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為指標上要更能夠公平。"],["林委員德福：部長，攸關地方財源統籌分配稅款，母法財政收支劃分法已經25年沒有修改，歷經政黨輪替政權更迭，再加上多了4個城市升格為直轄市，稅收上也有極大的變化，事實上應該有修法的必要性。今天財委會排審有媒體報導，依現在修正的版本重新調整稅收分配，恐怕中央要釋出高達6,400億元作為統籌分配款。請問部長，站在財政部的立場，對於財劃法，你認為有沒有必要性和急迫性？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，當然，因為這麼長的時間沒有修，中央跟地方的財政情勢有變更，另外這麼長時間以來，大家也都感覺分配的公式……尤其我們知道分配直轄市就直接先分走60%，然後縣（市），然後再鄉（鎮、市）這樣分。這個分配的方式，事實上就是造成剛剛陳超明委員所提到的情況，所以我們現在就在這個分配公式上，要重新去考慮相關的指標，讓它更細緻，然後讓它可以更趨於公平，這是多年來大家一直都在做的事情。"],["林委員德福：站在中央跟地方的角度，以目前委員提出的版本，中央釋出給地方的稅收分配比率到底有沒有調整的空間？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們在修法原則裡面就有一個提升財政自主，這個部分就會有擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模，但是在擴大規模的時候同時要考慮，第一個，要考慮到地方財政的需要，也要考慮中央的財政韌性，這個部分也要併入考慮，因為中央所要面對的特別事權，包括國防、社福支出、重大公共建設，以及國際政經情勢變化，中央必須要有財政韌性來做應對，所以中央的財政韌性也是很重要。"],["林委員德福：我瞭解，媒體報導對於財劃法的修正，財政部表示還要彙整地方的意見，包含六大原則，提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎、調劑財政的盈虛、保障既有財源，以及精進分配機制及地方財源不減等修法。部長，因為賴清德總統在院長任內支持修正財劃法，給地方更多的經費，地方縣市首長也多半認為財劃法早就該修，是當務之急，請問部長，從賴院長到賴副總統到今天上任的賴總統，在財劃法修法的立場，你認為他應該言行一致、積極推動修法，還是換了一個位子也要換一個腦袋的思維來判斷，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，這個部分其實財政部剛剛有報告，已經在積極展開相關的作業當中，我們已經提過對地方政府的分配指標，就是剛剛提到修法原則中的劃一分配基礎，也就是未來直轄市跟縣市分配基礎是一致的，目前先把它分成三大塊再來做分配，所以事實上這部分的分配基礎會要做討論……"],["林委員德福：我希望要積極啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：其次是精進分配的機制，要把相關的細節……可以做更明確，因為整個社會情勢跟經濟情勢發展都會有一些變化。"],["林委員德福：部長，朝野對財劃法修法的建言已經由來已久，但財政部一貫的說法不是以地方意見整合必須有共識，不然就是用財政分配法制面的公平原則來框架，影射修法有難度。請問部長，財政部這樣的說法，你認為有積極參與推動修法的誠意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部的說法也是一個事實，但是目前來說，我們在積極展開相關的作業當中。"],["林委員德福：民進黨政府執政，從賴清德擔任院長到現在，蔡總統上任已經好幾年了，地方意見彙整不應該沒有定論，財政分配的法制面也不應該說沒有具體內容，我請問部長，中央政府這個會期有沒有辦法提出對案的版本參與討論？如果再不提出，真的會讓外界被貼上尸位素餐的標籤了，你認為呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，不會有尸位素餐這樣的情形，財劃法縱使沒有修，中央對地方的財政挹注也一直逐年在增加，以113年跟105年來相較的話，已經都增加了兩千多億，所以財劃法雖然沒有修，但是中央對地方政府的財政挹注是一直都在做的，而且逐年在增加的。"],["林委員德福：部長，上個禮拜財政部公布最新的國債鐘，平均每人負債27.4萬元，創歷史的新高，所以又讓很多立委專注在這個議題，部長你的回應是短期融資在國庫調度上是有必要的，所以短期債務會增加，但會儘快還債。那我請問部長，現在財劃法在償還中央債務與地方財政分配上有沒有調整的空間？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的國債鐘是指中央的債務，為什麼上個禮拜會是27.4萬？是因為第一季的時候我們必須要支付軍公教的年終獎金，地方的補助款要出去，還有增加台電1,000億元的增資，所以這部分是大額的金額出去，以至於國債鐘會往上跳，而國債鐘是長債加上短債，短債我們會儘快還掉，這也就是國庫資金調度的短期現象，我們在17號有還了480億，這當時都是在我們的規劃當中，5月、6月大額稅款進來以後，我們也會積極地按照年度的預算去還掉1,150億元，事實上我們在債務控管上是非常的積極，而且謹守財政紀律。"],["林委員德福：最後，如果目前按照我們委員的修法版本，你認為對中央債務、地方財政會發生什麼變動或影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：資源的重新分配對各級政府的財政當然會有一些影響，所以這部分我們必須要審慎。"],["林委員德福：我認為25年了，該修還是要修，因為地方苦哈哈的，講實在話，中央集錢又集權，這個分配都是有點看顏色在分配啊，所以說……"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個分配都是按照公式在分配……"],["林委員德福：所以我們地方政府就是一直在哀哀叫，我希望你們在最短的期間要提出版本。以上，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.51096875,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.35721875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.649718750000005,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.665343750000005,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.650968750000004,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.64659375,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.04284375,"end":59.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.07659375,"end":63.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.210968750000006,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.00596875000001,"end":80.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.36409375000001,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.13409375,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.44534375,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":112.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.41846875,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.95784375000001,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.77596875,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.14096875,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.67159375,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.57346875000002,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.60721875000002,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.64909375000002,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.77534375000002,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.34909375,"end":187.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.95096875000002,"end":189.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.71034375000002,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.03346875000003,"end":201.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.38346875000002,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.82221875000002,"end":201.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.07909375000003,"end":214.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.19159375,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.25909375,"end":214.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.32659375,"end":218.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.74784375000002,"end":224.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.45159375,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.44971875000002,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.52534375000002,"end":238.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.54221875000002,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.55909375000002,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.81221875000003,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":238.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.09471875000003,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.54096875000002,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.87784375,"end":263.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.73284375000003,"end":260.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.39471875000004,"end":300.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.09784375000004,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.48159375,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.06346875,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.91971875,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.34909375,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.32221875000005,"end":339.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.38909375000003,"end":327.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.27846875,"end":333.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.45471875000004,"end":351.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.04784375,"end":384.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.50721875000005,"end":382.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.54909375,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.15909375,"end":411.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.76221875000005,"end":397.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.56721875000005,"end":402.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.47721875,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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那這次要是有共識呢?"},{"start":103.954,"end":115.456,"text":"如果這次有共識的話,我們在這個分配的部分就能夠得到一個很明確的公式,那我覺得這個就可以往前推進做修法的動作,是。如果是的話,那你認為財政部短期內"},{"start":117.031,"end":138.65,"text":"有提出修法的機會嗎?你們?這個部分我們一直在努力比如說我們已經提出修法的原則規劃修法的原則另外在地方政府的部分我們請他們已經提供了相關的指標那目前這個指標來其實還有很大的一個差距所以我們會進一步的釐清然後把指標這個這個之間的差距把它盡量縮小對"},{"start":139.724,"end":157.507,"text":"那你認為以現在來看行政院和財政部你們有沒有修法的決心呢?有沒有?我們已經在推展當中,我們剛剛在報告也是積極地在展開當中。部長,因為媒體報導對於你回應外界才化法修法指出包含"},{"start":158.648,"end":187.31,"text":"為地方增加財源等六大修法的原則。那學者一時認為說從此可以看出中央政府能是集權跟集權的心態,不願意放權。那我請問部長,對於學者認為你回應訴求財化法修正的內容是中央集權跟集權的心態,你認為是不是事實?"},{"start":188.25,"end":204.777,"text":"不是這樣的事。不是喔?那如果不是事實,但財政部又沒有積極主動修法的決心,那請問部長你又如何能夠讓各界來信服呢?跟委員報告,財劃法雖然沒有修正,"},{"start":205.217,"end":223.793,"text":"但是透過中央統籌分配稅款還有一般性的補助款以及專案的補助其實對於地方的財政的挹注已經有相當大的一個成長。我了解啊但問題是剛剛有委員提出來你像那個陳超平啊他提的苗栗對不對他一年貢獻多少結果"},{"start":225.334,"end":225.354,"text":"部長,"},{"start":251.727,"end":261.338,"text":"有關地方財源統籌分配稅款文法財政收支劃分法已經25年沒有修改。歷經政黨輪替政權"},{"start":264.451,"end":289.165,"text":"更迭再加上多了四個城市升格為直轄市稅收上也有極大的變化那事實上應該有修法的必要性今天啊財委會排審有媒體報導依照現在修正的版本重新調整稅收分配恐怕中央要釋出高達6400億元的這個作為統籌分配款"},{"start":293.988,"end":301.222,"text":"那請問部長委員去了解站在財政部的立場對於財劃法你認為有沒有必要和"},{"start":302.52,"end":327.598,"text":"有沒有必要信喚急迫性?有沒有?委員報告當然因為這麼長的時間沒有修地方跟財政中央跟地方的財政情勢有變更那另外就是這麼長時間以來大家也都感覺到這個分配的公式尤其這個我們知道分配直轄市就直接先分走61%縣市然後在鄉鎮這樣分這個分配的方式事實上在造成剛剛也就陳超明委員所提到的"},{"start":328.859,"end":350.2,"text":"所以我們現在就在這個分配公式上要重新去考慮相關的指標讓它更細緻然後讓它可以更趨於公平這是多年來大家一直都在做的事情因為站在中央跟地方的角度以目前提出的委員版中央釋出的稅收分配比例給地方到底有沒有調整的空間"},{"start":350.981,"end":368.933,"text":"﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":369.193,"end":369.374,"text":"我了解。"},{"start":384.471,"end":409.842,"text":"媒體報導對於財化法修正財政部表示還要彙整地方的意見並要以六大原則包含提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎然後調劑財政的營需保障既有的財源以及精進分配機制及地方財源不減等這些修法那部長因為賴清德從總統"},{"start":412.492,"end":433.525,"text":"總統在院長任內支持修正財劃法給地方更多的經費地方縣市首長也多半認為財劃法早就該修是當務之急請問部長從賴院長到賴副總統到今天上任的賴總統"},{"start":435.126,"end":453.476,"text":"在財化法修法的立場你認為他應該言行一致積極來推動修法還是換了個位置也要換了個腦袋的思維來判斷?你的看法呢?委員這個部分我們其實財政部我們剛剛報告已經在積極展開相關的一些作業當中"},{"start":454.557,"end":479.163,"text":"已經提過就是我們對地方政府的分配的指標就是剛剛提的修法原則裡面劃一分配基礎也就未來只想要是跟縣市要分配的基礎是一致那目前是根本就先把它分成三大塊然後再來做分配所以這個部分的分配基礎事實上會要做討論的我希望要進行分配的機制因為要把那個相關的細節可以做更明確因為整個社會情勢跟經濟情勢發展都會有一些變化"},{"start":479.983,"end":502.75,"text":"因為草野對財化法修法的建言已經由來已久但財政部一貫的說法就不是以地方意見整合必須有共識啊不然就是這個用財政分配法制面公平的原則來的框架那影射修法有難度那請問部長財政部這樣的說法"},{"start":506.431,"end":534.43,"text":"那你認為有積極參與推動修法的誠意嗎?財政部的說法也是一個事實。但是目前來說我們在積極展開相關的作業當中。民進黨政府執政從賴清德擔任院長到現在賴總統擅任已經好幾年了。地方意見彙整不應該沒有定論。財政分配法制面也不應該"},{"start":536.291,"end":560.986,"text":"說沒有具體的內容。我請問部長,中央政府這個會期有沒有辦法提出對岸的版本參與討論?如果再不提出,真的會讓外界被貼上世衛素餐的一個標籤了?您認為呢?委員不會有世衛素餐這樣的一個情形。"},{"start":562.192,"end":582.046,"text":"臺法法正是沒有修中央對地方的財政挹注也一直逐年在增加以113年跟105年來相較的話已經都增加了兩千多億所以臺法法雖然沒有修但是中央對地方政府的財政挹注是一直是都在做的而且逐年在增加的"},{"start":582.426,"end":607.295,"text":"部長,上個禮拜財政部公布最新的國債中平均每年負債27.4萬元,創歷史的新高,所以說又讓很多立委專注在這個議題。部長,你的回應是短期融資在國庫的調度上是有必要的,所以短期債務會增加,但會盡快來還債。那我請問部長,"},{"start":611.29,"end":618.457,"text":"現在財劃法在償還中央債務與地方財政分配上有沒有調整的空間?"},{"start":621.1,"end":643.532,"text":"我們的國債中是指中央的債務。那為什麼會上個禮拜是27.4萬是因為第一季的時候我們必須要支付軍公教的年終獎金地方的補助款要出去還有增加台電的1000億元的一個增值所以這個部分大額的金額出去以至於國債中它會往上跳那國債中是長債加上短債"},{"start":646.474,"end":657.096,"text":"那這個部分短債的部分我們會很盡快的去還掉也就是這是國庫資金調度的一個短期的一個現象所以我們在17號又還了481這當時都是在我們的規劃當中那5月6月大額的稅款進來以後我們也會積極的按照年度的預算去還掉1150億元這個部分事實上我們是在債務的控管上是非常的積極而且謹守財政紀律"},{"start":671.201,"end":682.586,"text":"最後就是部長,如果按照我們目前委員的修法版本,你認為對中央債務、地方財政上會發生什麼變動或影響?"},{"start":686.748,"end":709.751,"text":"當然這個資源的一個重新分配對各級政府的財政當然會有一些影響,所以這部分我們必須要審慎。我是認為該修25年了,該修還是要修,因為地方苦哈哈的啦,講實在話,那中央集權又集權,那這個分配"},{"start":710.852,"end":711.793,"text":"下一個質詢請吳秉瑞 吳委員"}]}},{"id":"152692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583eff56372bf57f3574e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d261850a64debb1b02432b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"15:03:55 - 15:07:20","影片長度":"00:03:25","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":205,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:07:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T15:03:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":43,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（15時3分）感謝主席。今天提到財政收支劃分法，其實25年以來就是很簡單的情況，中央集權、地方沒權，中央有錢、地方沒錢，說穿了就是分配不公，得到權力的人當然是說最好不要修，因為每個人都要去拜託中央，不要講說搖尾乞憐，但是什麼事情統統都是要看上面長官的臉色，地方的需求可以說是嗷嗷待哺，像新北市四百多萬的人口，可是統籌分配稅款它分配的原則沒有按照人均，所以下來的補助金額往往都是偏差、偏頗，我們人均新北市所受到的補助大概是敬陪末座，這個對新北市所有民眾來講是不公平的，有很多的不公不義。","今天財政部長也上任了，希望真的要好好將心比心，我們應該好好的善待所有22個地方，包括6都跟縣市，其實中央跟地方是夥伴關係，不是對立的關係，也不是一定要拜託，而是應該要把錢花在刀口上。我們都知道這幾年國家的稅收都是超徵，錢很多，但是也請財政部特別顧慮到臺灣現在的貧富懸殊越來越大。所以本席主張，這次我有提案、有修正版本，但是最主要的方向還是希望把餅做大，最起碼要高於過去的比例，當然都是有不同的資料、版本，過去的版本就是中央集權大概有七成多，地方分不到三成，我們希望能改變這個局勢，讓地方權多一點、錢多一點，因為必須要直接對民眾來負責。所以本席贊成國民黨黨團所提出的版本，大概會增加5,777億，由地方大家好好坐下來，看看怎麼協調、多多來爭取，中央把權力下放給地方，直接為民眾做最好的服務，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅召委，我們接下來請財政部莊部長來回應黨團及委員的提案內容。"],["莊部長翠雲：主席、各位委員先進，大家好：","今日貴委員會審查大院台灣民眾黨（下稱民眾黨）黨團、中國國民黨（下稱國民黨）黨團及各委員分別擬具「財政收支劃分法」（下稱財劃法）相關條文修正草案等14案，本人承邀列席，至感榮幸。謹就中央與地方財政概況、各級政府稅課收入劃分及各委員提案之研析意見說明如下，敬請指教。","壹、中央與地方財政概況","近年中央政府總預算歲入歲出連續賸餘，併計特別預算執行結果則餘絀互見，107年度及108年度賸餘新臺幣（下同）167億元及160億元，109年度及110年度為維持經濟成長動能及維護國家安全，並因應嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎疫情編列特別預算，轉為差短；111年度整體預算賸餘695億元，112年度總預算院編決算結果產生賸餘，併計特別預算後，整體預算仍為差短。","至於地方財政透過中央統籌分配稅款（下稱統籌稅款）及一般性補助款挹注，業顯著改善，整體地方收支賸餘由105年度41億元成長至111年度463億元，中央與地方財政情勢已有所改變。","貳、各級政府稅課收入劃分","財劃法涉及各級政府財政收入面及支出面等規範，本部負責收入面，行政院主計總處負責支出面；其中稅課收入劃分包括中央與地方財源之垂直分配及各地方政府間之水平分配，其應考量因素概述如下：","一、垂直分配：為維各級政府財政穩健，避免不經濟支出影響財政紀律，有關中央與地方財源之垂直分配，應通盤審視中央與地方事權劃分及近年整體財政概況，除適度維持中央財政韌性，以因應國際政經局勢變化、氣候變遷等不時之需外，並應兼顧地方財政需求，審慎規劃辦理。","二、水平分配：為符分配公式之合理性，各地方政府間水平分配須考量因素包括強化財政努力、兼顧基本建設需求及發揮均衡區域發展等功能，關照面向眾多，且須廣泛徵詢及蒐集各界意見。本部日前已就統籌稅款分配公式洽徵地方政府意見，將適時邀集地方政府協商，尋求共識。","参、各黨團及委員提案之研析意見","一、中央釋出財源規模部分","各該提案涉及增加中央釋出財源者計有國民黨黨團提案等10案，經按112年度稅收實徵數推估，增加釋出財源規模介於333億元至5,777億元間（詳如附表1），承如前述，垂直分配應考量中央與地方事權劃分，以及近年整體財政概況，並適度維持中央財政韌性，審慎規劃。如中央大幅釋出財源，恐影響國防及推動社會福利、重大建設等支出預算財源籌措，亦將排擠對地方政府之補助。","二、稅收直接分成部分","各該提案涉及調整稅收直接分成部分計有民眾黨黨團提案等7案，鑑於我國各地自然環境及工商發展條件不一，稅源分布不均情形顯著，擴大稅收直接分成之財源，恐拉大本已不均之地方財政差距，無法透過調盈劑虛達成區域均衡發展（詳如附表2）。","三、水平分配部分","(一)國民黨黨團提案","分配公式以人口指標為主，易導致人口數較多之市縣獲配數顯著優於其他同級市縣，對於人口較少之地方政府較為不利。為符外界對分配公式之期待，宜兼顧人口結構變化、強化財政努力、增訂污染指標及發揮均衡區域發展功能等面向。","(二)民眾黨黨團、林委員思銘等20人、洪委員孟楷等22人提案","1.採劃一直轄市及縣（市）分配基礎，並優先彌補基準財政收支差短，與101年行政院版規劃方向相同，雖具調盈劑虛效果，惟外界期待分配公式指標宜再強化財政努力，增訂污染、落實均衡區域發展相關指標。","2.有關組成委員會擬訂統籌稅款分配辦法一節，鑑於本部修正財劃法及統籌稅款分配辦法均曾邀集學者專家、中央與地方相關機關參與研商，並多次參加公聽會，聽取意見；未來檢討財劃法可朝精進分配機制、提升財政紀律及開源節流績效，並以客觀分配公式辦理，俾維持各級政府之財政穩定，統籌稅款委員會有無設立必要尚須審慎研議。","3.有關提撥特別統籌稅款比例由6%降至2%一節，考量該稅款主要係為適時提供支應地方政府緊急及其他重大事項所需經費，其適當提撥比例應就地方需求及整體統籌稅款規模審慎研訂。","(三)陳委員超明等17人、賴委員瑞隆等16人提案","有關中央普通統籌稅款分配公式增訂基礎建設落後程度、工業與科技業碳排放情形、高污染產業貢獻等分配指標一節，部分地方政府已有類似建議，本部將適時徵詢地方政府意見後，訂定明確指標。","(四)蔡委員易餘等16人提案","有關增列農業發展地區及國土保育區應優先補足基本財政需要之規定，鑑於本部規劃之修法原則，將擴大統籌稅款規模，優先滿足各地方政府基準財政收支差額，在公式指標方面，並將研議落實對於財政較為弱勢地方政府之照顧，爰尚須審慎研議。","(五)賴委員士葆等29人提案","有關所得稅提撥20%作為地方政府補充財源，按5%分配花東及離島地區，95%分配其他直轄市及縣（市），並應參酌人口及合理人均歲出等因素訂定分配公式一節，鑑於統籌稅款係屬受分配地方政府稅課收入，為免爭議，相關分配公式宜採劃一基礎，且不宜過度強調人口因素；至對於特定區域之扶植，可透過補助制度辦理。","四、其他","(一)林委員思銘等20人及洪委員孟楷等22人提案","有關每增設一直轄市或準直轄市，增撥所得稅10%納入統籌稅款一節，鑑於地方財源分配應對應事權歸屬，倘明定新增1個直轄市或準直轄市，中央即需增加釋出逾1,800億元，恐提供縣（市）爭取升格之誘因，並影響中央財政之穩健。","(二)洪委員孟楷等22人提案","有關增訂通知分配直轄市之款項，直轄市應參酌各區城鄉差距等因素，研訂透明化、公式化之方式分配所轄各該區一節，依地方制度法規定，直轄市轄下之「區」，非獨立之地方財政層級，尚無法課徵稅捐及參與普通統籌分配稅款分配。爰有關涉及直轄市與轄下區公所間之預算資源分配事宜，宜由各該直轄市本於自治權責辦理。至於山地原住民自治區部分，地方制度法第83條之7已有明文規定。","(三)伍委員麗華等17人提案","有關將直轄市山地原住民區（下稱原民區）納入全國財政收支系統一節，依地方制度法第83條之3規定，原民區財政自治事項僅列財務收支及管理與財產之經營及處分，未包含稅捐及公共債務，且依同條之7規定，原民區實施自治所需財源，係由直轄市依原民區之自治事項相關因素設算補助。爰各級地方自治團體稅課收入劃分應與事權歸屬併同考量，因涉地方制度整體規劃，宜由內政部審慎評估，循修正地方制度法方式推動。","(四)賴委員士葆等22人提案","有關增訂中央制（修）定涉及影響地方稅收之法律時，地方政府稅收實質損失應由中央補足等規定一節，查各機關制（訂）定或修正法律，如有減少收入者，歷來均由業務相關主管機關依財劃法第38條之1或財政紀律法第5條規定籌措彌補財源，且現行對於金融營業稅、土地增值稅、遺產及贈與稅相關稅制調整導致地方稅收損失之彌補，相關稅法中均已有類似規定，至於彌補損失之計算方式亦有相關規範，倘未來中央制（修）定法律涉地方稅收減損，可參酌上開體例辦理，爰尚無重複訂定之必要。","肆、結語","鑑於各級政府財政收支劃分牽涉財政資源重分配，對各級政府財政影響至關重要，向為外界關切。為維持中央財政韌性，並兼顧地方財政需求，相關研修作業積極展開中，本部擬訂提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎、調劑財政盈虛、保障既有財源、精進分配機制等修法原則，並請地方政府研提分配指標建議，目前已就地方政府所提分配指標疑義再予釐清中，將適時邀集地方政府協商審慎妥處。","以上說明，敬請各位委員指教，謝謝！"],["註：賴委員瑞隆等16人、伍委員麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人、賴委員士葆等22人、蔡委員易餘等16人所提4項提案未涉釋出財源。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：謝謝。現在開始詢答，每位出席委員發言的時間為8分鐘，必要時延長2分鐘；列席委員發言的時間為5分鐘，必要時得延長1分鐘。3點半截止發言登記。本日會議委員若有相關修正動議，請逕送財政委員會議事人員收件，以利後續的審查。","請第一位林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴惠員","王世堅"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-20"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00005","1134901_00006","1134901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正\n草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、\n委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、 (四)本院委員陳\n玉珍等24 人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 本院委員王鴻薇等24 人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超明等17人\n擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴瑞\n隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等 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- 15:03:48","影片長度":"00:04:00","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":240,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T15:03:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T14:59:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":37,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（14時59分）謝謝主席及各位先進。我有兩個提案一併講，第一個就是我們知道財劃法上一次是1999年，在精省之前，我們中央、地方的錢比例多少呢？6比4；結果到現在今天為止，變成75對25啊！中央政府食髓知味啊！錢越積越多、錢越抓越多，1999年25年前拿百分之六十，現在拿百分之七十五啊！然後地方政府要錢就像乞丐一樣，仰望著中央的mercy、你們的慈悲，來給地方多一點，這樣子毫無道理啊！所以我的提案是修了第八條、第十六條之二、第三十七條之二、第三十八條之二，簡單來講，我希望把餅做大，我的版本比我們黨團客氣，我們黨團希望能夠把你們挖五千七百多億，將近六千億；我的版本只有一半，3,000億，就是所得稅增加百分之二十，這樣一調整過來就很接近了，6對4還沒有到這樣子，也差不多65對35，所以還是很客氣的，我有兩個提案，第一個提案是這個。","第二個提案，我們現在常常看到中央政府都是很多的德政，比如說馬上要來的里長年終獎金7萬5，大家鼓掌啊！說這個很快要通過啊！可是這個錢誰出呢？地方政府出啊！地方政府出，還有包括警察夜點費的調整，也是中央政府一聲令下要調整，但也是地方政府來買單。所以都是中央請客、地方買單，比比皆是，這樣的案件太多太多了，這樣子其實讓人家感覺這都是玩假的，就是中央現在把錢牢牢的抓在手上，然後地方就像乞丐一樣，要說你多一點、多一點、多一點。","所以這次羅召委排這個案子，我們希望能夠認真審下去，到目前為止，行政院非常不負責任，行政院怎麼沒有版本呢？1999年到現在，快25年沒有修正財劃法，財政紀律第三十八條之一也沒有去修正它，我剛剛提到的中央請客、地方買單的現象一定要遏止它。所以我的提案裡面就講得非常清楚，只要任何的政策增加支出，一定要說明來源，中央立法、地方買單的情況要完全遏止，要怎麼樣遏止呢？例如說里長的7.5萬，這個錢中央來出啊！不能地方政府出，統籌分配稅款是外加，不應該內含。","我想就是以上兩個提案，第一個提案就是把餅做大，增加3,000億；第二個案子就是維護財政紀律，以後只要任何中央要減稅或者是增加薪資、加薪等等，這些錢統統由中央政府來買單。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，賴士葆賴委員。","我們繼續請最後一位羅召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra 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mercy你們打磁棒你們的慈悲給地方來多一點這樣子"},{"start":58.939,"end":71.874,"text":"毫無道理啊。所以我的提案是修了第八條、第十二、十六條之二、三十七條之二、三十八條之二。簡單來講,我先把餅做大。"},{"start":73.783,"end":95.375,"text":"我的版本比我們黨團客氣啊。我們黨團希望能夠把你們挖五千七百多億,將近六千億。我的版本一半只有三千億。就是所得稅增加百分之二十。增加百分之二十。這樣一調整過來就很接近了六對四。還沒有到這樣子。也差不多六十五對三十五。"},{"start":96.295,"end":124.264,"text":"所以還是很客氣的這是我的這個提案有兩個提案第一個提案是這個第二個提案我們現在常常看到我政府來講的話現在來講這個中央政府都是很多的德政比如說馬上要來的理事長的年終獎金七萬五大家鼓掌啊說這個很快要通過啊可是這個潛水處呢地方政府出啊"},{"start":125.595,"end":134.096,"text":"地方政府處還有呢包括警察夜點費的調整也是中央這裡一聲令下要調整"},{"start":137.578,"end":157.495,"text":"來買單。所以都是中央請客、地方買單、比比皆是這樣的案件太多太多了。這樣子啊,其實讓人家感覺,人家感覺這個都是玩假的。就是中央現在把錢牢牢的拽在手上,然後地方就像乞丐一樣,要說你多一點、多一點、多一點。"},{"start":158.755,"end":169.624,"text":"所以我們希望這一次我們羅昭惠派這個案子我們希望能夠認真審下去到目前為止行政院非常不負責任行政院怎麼沒有版本呢?"},{"start":171.277,"end":198.593,"text":"1999年到現在快25年了沒有修了地方這個我們的財務法沒有修正財政紀律38條之一也沒有去修正它我的剛剛提到的就是中央請客地方買單的現象一定要遏止它所以我的提案裡面就想得非常清楚只要任何的政策增加支出的一定要說明來源中央立法地方買單的情況要完全遏止"},{"start":200.414,"end":200.655,"text":"議員賴士葆等"},{"start":220.197,"end":220.397,"text":"賴士葆等"}]}},{"id":"152690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58334e57194c4b30a8a4e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d261851d95d62370d3d00e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"14:56:11 - 14:59:35","影片長度":"00:03:24","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":204,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T14:59:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T14:56:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":32,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（14時56分）各位官員、各位委員。我今天所提的跟陳超明委員提的是一樣的立論基礎，也是有關菸酒稅法。我們金門在菸酒稅的部分也是創稅很多，但是分的不夠啦。金門早年土地非常地貧瘠，縣民的收入只有臺灣地區的60%，民眾大概都是種植高粱跟小麥，後來我們在民國42年設立金門酒廠，但是那個時候不是一開始就賣得很好，金門縣政府有一陣子窮得沒有辦法發薪水，只好發高粱酒，是到了民國91年以後，因為我們的品質越做越好，所以才開始慢慢地有賺錢，大家就覺得說金門縣好像是比較有錢。但是在91年菸酒新制以前，大家都看到我一直在看國庫署署長，91年以前，我們每一瓶酒的專賣利益只要交五十一塊多；到了實施菸酒新制後，我們每一瓶0.6的要交110塊菸酒稅，等於是我們的菸酒稅稅賦增加了快將近60塊，意思是說我們每一年就是多增加……光91年到95年間，我們財政短收啦！因為我們交給中央，就短收了六十幾億。","第二個，按照地方制度法的相關規定，有些東西比如說自來水，這個我也提過很多次，自來水這些不是縣的自治事項，但是我們金門縣自己有自來水廠，所有的營運成本、其他增加的，都是我們縣政府自行負擔。比如說，大家知道我們做一個金門大橋，金門大橋是大金門到小金門之間一個大橋，新北的淡江大橋、屏東的鵬灣跨海大橋、澎湖的跨海大橋，這些所有的營銷管理都是中央負擔；但是金門縣金門大橋的這些管理，都是由我們金門縣政府全數負擔。就是說有些地方自治不應該負擔的款項，由我們金門的地方政府自己來負擔，這個事實上也是非常的不公平。","所以其實我們今天在這裡的要求也不多，本席所提出來的財政收支劃分法第八條的修正，也不是在跟你們爭取額外的錢，只是說我們提的這個第八條法案，是希望把金馬地區的菸酒稅，改為徵起收入減除百分之一作為稽徵及查緝經費後，其他的百分之八十分回來。我提出的這個方案，跟行政院、財政部，不管是國民黨執政或是民進黨執政，所提出的版本都一模一樣，包括這一次民進黨團的版本、國民黨團的版本也都是完全一致的。所以本席瞭解說財政收支劃分法很困難，垂直分配、水平分配都非常困難，但是我們這一條事實上是相對單純，不管是各黨、各派或是藍綠的各級政府，一直以來都是有這樣的主張，已經超過二十年來我們都是這樣主張，所以希望這一條的修正版本可以優先考慮，解決我們金門地區越來越辛苦的財政困境。以上，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：謝謝陳玉珍陳委員。","接下來請賴士葆賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra 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2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.418468750000001,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.71784375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.185968750000001,"end":19.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.027843750000002,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.32784375,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.21659375,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.48471875,"end":203.94846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.704,"end":30.06,"text":"各位官員、各位委員我今天所提的跟陳昌明委員提的也是一樣的利潤基礎也是有關菸酒稅法我們金門也是創稅很多在菸酒稅的部分但是是沒有分得不夠啦我們金門早年非常的土地貧瘠現民的收入只有台灣地區的60%那民眾大概都是種植這個高粱跟小麥"},{"start":31.161,"end":56.827,"text":"後來我們設立金門酒廠42年設立金門酒廠但是不是那個時候就開始賣得很好金門縣政府有一陣子窮得沒有辦法發薪水只好發高粱酒那是到了民國91年以後才因為我們的品質越做越好所以才開始慢慢地有賺錢那大家就覺得說金門縣好像是比較有錢但是呢以前在91年燕酒新制以前大家都看到我一直在看國庫署署長"},{"start":58.367,"end":83.648,"text":"91年以前我們每一瓶酒的賺賣率只要交51塊多。到了實施菸酒新制後,我們這個菸酒稅每一瓶0.6的要交111塊。等於是我們的菸酒稅增加的快將近60塊。意思是說我們每一年呢就是多增加給光91年到95年間我們財政短收啦因為我們交給中央就短收了60幾億。"},{"start":85.149,"end":91.234,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":109.429,"end":136.176,"text":"新北的什麼淡江大橋啦、屏東的內灣內澎灣的跨海大橋、澎湖的跨海大橋這些所有的營銷管理都是中央負擔但是金門縣的金門大橋是由我們金門縣政府這些管理都有我們全數負擔就是說有些地方這是不應該負擔的款項由我們金門的地方政府自己來負擔這個事實上也是非常的不公平所以呢我們在這裡其實今天的要求也不多本席所提出來的這個研究"},{"start":137.696,"end":158.43,"text":"《財政收支劃分法第八條的修正》也不是在跟你們爭取額外的錢只是說這個法案我們提出來這個第八條我們提出來是說希望就是把這個金馬地區的這個菸酒稅改為爭取收入減除百分之一作為積增及查緝經費後其他的百分之八十分回來那這個我提出的這個法案跟這個"},{"start":159.17,"end":179.079,"text":"行政院、財政部不管是國民黨執政或是民進黨執政所提出的版本都一模一樣包括過這一次的民進黨團的版本國民黨團的版本也都是完全一致的所以呢我了解本期了解說這個財政收支劃很困難隨時分配、水平分配都非常困難但是我們這一條呢事實上是相對單純不管是各黨各派或是藍綠的各級政府"},{"start":182.72,"end":184.001,"text":"陳玉珍陳委員來我們接下來羅明財羅昭惟賴士葆代委員來到你"}]}},{"id":"152689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58322528caa7cc2b1db4e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d26185d5a460e69db745675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"14:51:13 - 14:56:00","影片長度":"00:04:47","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":287,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T14:56:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T14:51:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":27,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（14時51分）今天本席提出財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一的修正草案。在我做提案說明以前，請大家先看一個資料。因為財政收支劃分法我在101年就開始提案了，我們苗栗縣從95年到112年的總稅款，也就是它的創稅是5,659億；在國稅裡面，從95年到112年，它繳了4,147億，但統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款，給苗栗縣的補助才2,022億。現在我們以三級的財政縣市來講，苗栗縣創稅交給中央4,147億，但我們只分到2,022億。嘉義縣創稅963億，在統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款，它拿了2,430億。再講到屏東縣，它交給中央的創稅是2,627億，中央補助給它3,589億，等於我賺錢，我多給你中央兩千多億，但是我分得越來越少，嘉義縣跟屏東縣的話，他們創稅少，但是他們分到的更多，所以我覺得非常地不公平。","今天財政收支劃分法超過20年都沒有修正，分配的公式已經不符合現在的狀況，造成六都跟非六都地區的發展差異日漸擴大。最重要的問題是，我們地方政府努力創稅，卻沒有得到應有的回饋，也就是努力的孩子沒有糖可以吃，越努力我分配的越少。剛剛這一張表已經非常清楚。所以第八條、第十二條、十六條之一，我認真地給個建議，就是財政收支劃分法應給予努力招商、正在發展的縣市更友善地對待。","所以我有提出財政收支劃分法修正案，有幾個重點：擴大統籌分配稅款的來源，這是第一點。第二點，有菸酒稅回饋在縣市的，要提高它分配的比例，因為只有3分鐘的時間說明，我只能簡單地講。再來，第三點，土地增值稅應該劃歸地方。第四點，新增的普通統籌分配稅款，這個指標裡面要避免工廠在鄉村繳稅，在都市……這裡面的差異很大，幾十年我們都忍受了。我第一張表是從101年開始做到112年，我每一次談，你們每一次都講好，但每一次都沒有改進，我們不要求多。苗栗縣財政被控管，如果依照這個創稅的數額，你撥個300億元、200億元來補這一些差距，尤其這個差距看起來很讓人傷心，我多增加兩千多億，我卻分的比較少；他們創稅少，他們卻分到多一點，我覺得這個真的要改進。我們要求的不多，給正在努力創稅的苗栗縣一個友善的對待，不然我們現在很可憐，財政也被監管，去拜託你們財政部都很保守，錢都不敢多付給我們，我就用這一條來跟你們談判就好，我希望部長、各位委員多多支持，要如何有合理分配的比例，我們真的很努力啦！沒道理說一直在創稅，創得越多，分的越少，我希望各位委員也支持這個條款，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","現在請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra 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2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.63846875,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.35409375,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.652843750000002,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.516593750000002,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.53721875,"end":30.051593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.355343750000003,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.249718750000003,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.24096875,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.05846875,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.01596875,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.20034375,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.494718750000004,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.67159375000001,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.190343750000004,"end":61.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.51846875000001,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.85971875,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.63534375,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.84971875000001,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.55409375,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.88284375,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.01346875,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.91534375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.87284375,"end":100.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.89284375000001,"end":103.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.69409375000001,"end":106.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.84971875000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.70034375,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.29471875,"end":126.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.32346875,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.93034375000002,"end":134.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.40659375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.90409375000002,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.70034375,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.01596875,"end":152.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.67784375000002,"end":157.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.52096875,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.38159375,"end":176.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.55596875,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.22096875000003,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.35971875,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.65846875000003,"end":200.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.69159375,"end":202.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.98659375000003,"end":204.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.34909375,"end":206.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.24346875,"end":214.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.28846875000002,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.75534375,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.46284375000002,"end":235.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.61846875,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.53784375,"end":241.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.57534375,"end":245.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.93346875,"end":248.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.27909375000002,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.74721875,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.56971875000002,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.65096875,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.50284375,"end":277.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.86096875000004,"end":279.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.90221875000003,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.50096875,"end":286.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.95659375,"end":286.97346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.68,"end":25.179,"text":"今天本席提出財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一的修正草案。在我提案說明以前請大家先看一個資料。因為財政收支劃分法我在101年就開始提案了。那放出來沒有?"},{"start":27.613,"end":29.635,"text":"我們苗栗縣從95年到112年它的總稅款就是它創稅的話是5659億在國稅裡面"},{"start":42.982,"end":61.867,"text":"從95年到112年他繳了4147億那統籌分配款跟一般性的補助款在苗栗縣的補助才2022億那現在在第二章"},{"start":66.55,"end":80.188,"text":"我們以三級的財政縣市來講苗栗縣創稅交給中央四千一百四十七億我們只分到兩千二十二零二十二億嘉峪縣"},{"start":81.581,"end":92.625,"text":"他創稅963億他在統籌婚姻備款跟一般性的補助款他拿了2430億那講到屏東縣他交給中央的創稅是2627億中央補助給他3589億等於我前陣子我給二千"},{"start":107.271,"end":120.02,"text":"兩千幾億給你中用的但是我本料越來越少那嘉義跟屏東縣的話他創作少但是他分出來的更多所以我覺得非常的不公平"},{"start":121.36,"end":143.743,"text":"所以今天財政收支劃分法超過20年都沒有修正那分配的一個公式已經不合現在的狀況造成六都跟匯六都地區的發展日漸差異更大最重要的問題當我們地方政府努力放稅卻沒有得到應有的回饋"},{"start":144.784,"end":157.547,"text":"也就是牟利的孩子我們要慚愧是越牟利我分配的越少剛剛這一張表已經了非常清楚所以在第八條、第十二條、十六條之一"},{"start":159.468,"end":182.071,"text":"我認真的一種建議就是財政收支劃分法應給予牟利造商正在發展的社會自更友善的一個對待所以提出我有提出財政收支劃分法修正有幾個重點擴大同仇分配稅款的來源這第一點第二點"},{"start":182.731,"end":194.262,"text":"有19歲回饋在縣市要提高他分配的比例,因為三分鐘說明我只有簡單的講。再來,第三點土地中值稅應該歸給地方,"},{"start":196.687,"end":223.603,"text":"第四點新增的普通統籌分配款這個指標裡面要避免工廠在鄉村繳稅在都市這裡面的差異很大幾十年都忍受了我第一張表是從一百零一年開始做到現在一百一十二年每一次我在談每一次都講好每一次都沒有改進我們不要求多"},{"start":224.827,"end":238.878,"text":"苗栗縣財政被控管,如果依照這個創稅的時候,你撥個三百億、兩百億來補這些差距,尤其這個差距看起來很令人傷心,我借兩成幾億,我本來這麼少錢,他們創稅少,他們借本來這麼少錢。"},{"start":242.608,"end":270.229,"text":"我覺得這個真的要改進我們要求不多給正在努力創稅的苗栗縣給他一個對待不然現在很可憐財政會被監管拜託你們財政部都很保守錢都不敢說多付給我們我只希望用這一條來跟你們談判就好我希望我們部長各位委員多多支持要有合理分配的比例我們真的很努力啦沒有人說要一直在創稅"},{"start":272.01,"end":276.153,"text":"創的越糟,分的越少。我希望各位委員也支持這個談判。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"152688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583bb8b8e47c4dce6184e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d26185b4341338a79802995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"14:47:39 - 14:51:02","影片長度":"00:03:23","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":203,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T14:51:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T14:47:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":21,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（14時47分）謝謝主席。各位同仁，還有現場所有的政府代表。我想台灣民眾黨這一次所提出的財劃法版本，其實非常地全面，就像剛剛洪孟楷委員所說的，其實每個地方政府都有一樣的痛。財劃法最後一次的修正是在1999年，也就是25年前，25年來沒有再進一步地做任何修正，而且所有相關的內容跟細項，只有在去年的時候，立法院曾經有提案，要求財政部去徵詢各地方的意見，徵詢了一年，到現在還在徵詢，所以民眾黨所提出的財劃法，沒有辦法再等待財政部繼續徵詢。","我們提出了三個重點：第一個，要擴大統籌分配稅款的規模，也就是把餅做大。第二個，要穩定地方政府的財政紀律，還有設置統籌分配稅款的分配委員會。首先，民眾黨團的版本擴大了統籌分配稅款的規模，把營業稅收入歸給地方政府，也將菸酒稅同步歸給地方政府，在民眾黨團的版本之下，估計可以增加大概兩千七百多億的統籌分配稅款，透過給地方政府更多的資源，可以強化地方政府，不管是在財政紀律上，還是在建設經費上。","第二個部分，強化地方政府的財政紀律，我們希望透過統籌分配稅款，優先彌補地方政府的財政基準需要，還有財政基準收入的差額，也就是說，統籌分配稅款最重要的目的是來協助地方政府平衡它每一年的預算，只有平衡預算才有餘力進行建設，中央政府給予地方的補助才會更有意義，也就是說，不是讓地方政府仰賴中央鼻息。","第三個，我們版本裡面設計了統籌分配稅款的分配委員會，對於中央統籌分配稅款用來協助地方政府發展、挹注地方建設的部分，我們不希望中央政府繼續獨攬大權，而是透過學者專家、各地方政府的代表、財政部的代表，共同組成分配的委員會來決定分配稅款，讓各個地方政府可以更有效地發揮地方不同的特色，由委員會給予它適合的補助，因為到目前為止，完全是由中央一意孤行，然後地方政府幾乎沒有任何發聲的權力，所以我們希望衡平地方的發展差異，還有給予各地方政府更多財政上的支援，這是一個非常穩健、長期的規範。我們希望各地方政府的財政狀況可以同步穩定、改善，希望召委能儘速地排審，也希望財政部在新政府上任後能夠趕快提出久未見到的行政院版本，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","第三位請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra 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2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.72659375,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.22346875,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.45034375,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.92721875000001,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.10659375,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.44409375,"end":183.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.25534375,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.95034375,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.83159375000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.78846875000002,"end":203.27346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.407,"end":18.876,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位同仁還有現場所有的政府的代表我想台灣民眾黨這一次所提出的財化版本其實非常的全面我們也希望剛剛彭文凱委員所說的其實每個地方政府都有一樣的痛"},{"start":19.716,"end":36.312,"text":"那財化法在一九九九年也就是二十五年前曾經修正過最後一次二十五年來沒有再進一步的做任何修正而且所有的相關的內容跟細項只有在去年的時候"},{"start":37.313,"end":53.508,"text":"曾經立法院有提案要求財政部去徵詢各地方的意見徵詢了一年到現在還在徵詢所以民眾黨所提出的財法法沒有辦法在等待財政部繼續徵詢所以我們提出了三個重點"},{"start":54.409,"end":75.688,"text":"第一個要擴大統籌分配稅款的規模也就是把柄做大第二個要穩定地方政府的財政紀律還有設置統籌分配稅款的分配委員會首先民眾黨團的版本擴大了統籌分配稅款的規模讓營業稅收入歸給地方政府"},{"start":76.529,"end":94.89,"text":"將菸酒稅同步歸給地方政府。這個估計在民眾黨團的版本之下大概可以增加2700多億的統籌分配稅款。透過地方政府給地方政府更多的資源可以強化地方政府不管它在財政紀律上還是它的建設經費上。"},{"start":96.977,"end":115.788,"text":"第二部分強化地方政府的財政紀律我們希望透過統籌分配稅款優先彌補地方政府的財政基準需要還有財政基準收入的差額也就是說統籌分配稅款最重要的目的是來協助地方政府平衡他每一年的預算"},{"start":116.608,"end":135.797,"text":"只要平衡預算才有餘力進行建設,中央政府給予地方的補助才會更有意義,也就是說不是讓地方政府仰賴中央的比息。第三個,我們版本裡面設計了統籌分配稅款的分配委員會,對於中央統籌分配稅款用來協助地方政府發展、"},{"start":137.898,"end":162.918,"text":"的部分我們不希望中央政府繼續獨攬大權而是透過學者專家各地方政府的代表財政部的代表共同組成分配的委員會來決定分配稅款所以讓各個地方政府可以更有效的發揮地方不同的特色而且由委員會來針對給他適合的補助目前為止現在完全是由中央"},{"start":164.559,"end":190.999,"text":"一意孤行然後地方政府幾乎沒有任何發聲權利所以我們希望橫貧地方的發展差異還有給予各地方政府更多財政上的支援這是一個非常穩健長期的規範我們希望各地方政府的財政狀況可以同步穩定改善我們也肯定召委儘速的儘速的排審我們也希望財政部在新政府能夠趕快提出"},{"start":192.02,"end":192.421,"text":"黃珊珊"}]}},{"id":"152687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583a6e9c7969ee7fb404e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d26185aaab6b1aed7c96905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"14:43:23 - 14:47:26","影片長度":"00:04:03","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":243,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T14:47:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T14:43:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":13,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（14時43分）主席、各位現場同仁、各縣市及中央官員。首先，我今天要很沉重、嚴肅、誠懇地向執政的中央政府提出呼籲，各縣市有很多辛苦不為人知，就是在編預算的時候，這種編不出的痛苦，好像媽媽看著孩子嗷嗷待哺，米缸裡卻是空著的心情。另外，我們也認為人應該生而平等，在臺灣卻因為出生在不同縣市而不公平、不平等，這種不平等還不是因為山川地理的限制，而是因為中央主政者用制度、用法令、用資源分配所造成的不平等，而且越來越不平等。","這些話不是我發明的，這些話是2012年民進黨黨主席蘇貞昌率同當時執政的縣市長，包括今天就職的賴清德總統，當時是臺南市市長，今天任命的潘孟安秘書長，當時是民進黨的黨團幹事長，共同發出的聲明。12年前，民進黨在野時候就疾呼要修正財政收支劃分法，而當時用的理由，到民進黨執政8年過去完全不想動。我們要問，如果當時時空背景、環境，各縣市在編列預算的時候如同嗷嗷待哺的小孩卻看到米缸沒有米的心情，過去8年有沒有更加劇？有，因為過去8年，中央跟地方的收入比例越來越懸殊，也因此，在1999年財政收支劃分法修正之後，到現在25年未修正。","今天好幾個黨團以及好幾位委員都提出修正的部分，就是希望能夠回歸公平，把過去中央跟地方有不平等的地方能夠消弭。再者，現在財政委員會上面有兩行大字「國家至上，民眾第一」，也跟今天賴清德總統就職演說所講的「國家優先，人民第一」是一樣的。也因此，我們說只要錢是用在臺灣2,350萬人身上，無論是放在中央，無論是放在地方，相信都可以做合理的分配，而地方政府在第一線面對民眾的需求，相信一定更瞭解大家的需求，也因此我們支持應該要回歸到常態。","所以今天本席以及國民黨黨團所提出的相關版本，就是希望把中央過去在財政收支劃分法裡面認為的60比40，多出來的15%稅收還給地方。再者，也依照照顧弱勢及離島縣市、保障基本需求、人人平等，以及首都及金融重鎮保留款等四大原則來進行分配。最後，我們也提出修法後每個縣市所獲得的統籌分配款金額較調整前都增加，有利於地方施政跟縮短城鄉差距。","綜合以上幾點，我們懇請在場的所有委員同仁共同支持這一次我們所提出的財政收支劃分法，並且也請中央跟地方不要堅持己見，好好聽到廣大的民意以及大家的需求，來共同促成睽違25年之後再一次修正的財劃法，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","第二位請台灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊委員說明提案要旨。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra 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2案、\n(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條\n之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文\n修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.88221875,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.80721875,"end":28.364093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.75221875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.048468750000005,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.955343750000004,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.23784375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.22971875,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.17284375000001,"end":91.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.53971875,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.63034375000001,"end":128.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.46221875,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.87909375,"end":135.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.95909375000002,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.96221875,"end":146.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.67034375,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.92221875,"end":212.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.09471875000003,"end":234.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.89721875,"end":235.43721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.06159375000001,"end":237.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.32659375000003,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":243.14909375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":26.792,"text":"以及我們各位現場的同仁還有我們今天各縣市以及中央官員首先我說今天要很沉重、嚴肅、誠懇地向執政的中央政府提出呼籲各縣市有很多辛苦不為人知就是在編預算的時候這種編不出的痛苦好像媽媽看著孩子嗷嗷待哺米缸裡卻是空著的心情"},{"start":28.024,"end":52.674,"text":"還有我們也認為人應該生而平等在台灣卻因為出生在不同縣市而不公平不平等這種不平等還不是因為山川地理的限制而是因為中央主政者用制度用法令用資源分配所造成的不平等而且越來越不平等這些話不是我發明的"},{"start":53.488,"end":72.319,"text":"這些話是2012年民進黨黨主席蘇貞昌率同當時執政的縣市長包括今天就職的賴清德總統當時是台南市市長今天任命的潘孟安秘書長當時是民進黨的黨團幹事長共同發出的聲明"},{"start":78.374,"end":105.864,"text":"十二年前民進黨在野時候就幾乎要修正財務收支劃分法而當時用的理由到民進黨執政八年過去完全不想動我們要問如果說當時時空背景環境各縣市在編列預算的時候如同嗷嗷逮捕的兒子、小孩卻看到米缸沒有米的這個心情過去八年有沒有更加具有"},{"start":106.684,"end":128.563,"text":"因為過去八年我們中央跟地方的收入比例越來越懸殊,也因此在1999年財務劃分法修正之後到現在25年未修正,我們今天好幾個黨團以及好幾位委員都提出修正的部分,就是希望能夠回歸公平。"},{"start":129.522,"end":145.741,"text":"把過去中央跟地方能夠有不平等的地方給消滅。再者現在我們財政委員會上面兩個大字國家至上人民眾第一也跟今天賴清德總統就職演說所講的"},{"start":148.048,"end":176.739,"text":"國家優先人民第一是一樣的也因此我們說只要錢是用在我們台灣2350萬人身上無論是放在中央無論是放在地方相信都可以做有合理的分配而地方政府在第一線面對民眾的需求相信一定更了解大家的需求也因此我們支持應該要回歸到常態所以今天本席以及國民黨黨團所提出相關版本"},{"start":177.259,"end":197.185,"text":"就是希望把中央過去在財政收支劃分法裡面認為的60比40多出來的15%稅收還給地方。再者也依照照顧弱勢及離島縣市、保障基本需求、人人平等以及首都及金融重症保留款等四大原則來進行分配。"},{"start":197.865,"end":210.645,"text":"最後,我們也提出,修法後每個縣市所獲得的統籌非饋款金額較調整前都增加,有利於地方施政跟縮短城鄉差距。綜合以上幾點,我們懇請"},{"start":213.169,"end":237.518,"text":"在場的所有委員同仁共同的來支持這一次我們所提出來的財務收支劃分法並且也請中央跟地方不要堅持己見而好好聽到廣大的民意以及大家的需求來共同促成國約25年之後再一次修正的財劃法。謝謝。好,謝謝洪孟楷、洪委員。"},{"start":241.377,"end":241.698,"text":"第二位請"}]}},{"id":"15930","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15930","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd884f44d7fbe074809e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be4d14826feeadbf0375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-20","start_time":"2024-05-20T08:30:31+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-20T11:20:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10169,"委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 那再來請公共運輸及監理司林司長報告"},{"start":2184.236,"end":2199.262,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況進行報告．敬請各位委員指教首先就車輛自動駕駛、駕駛輔助系統、法規發展現況"},{"start":2203.303,"end":2225.886,"text":"我國車輛安全法規系接軌國際與歐盟、日本、歐洲等地區或國家相同,都是調合聯合國歐洲經濟委員會的一位1C1車輛法規導入實施。車輛駕駛輔助系統或者是最終發展的自動駕駛系統,現階段無論在國內或在國外都尚屬於技術及系統等級持續發展的時期,但是因應"},{"start":2226.667,"end":2244.256,"text":"技術發展及相關駕駛輔助系統陸續導入配備在車輛上的實際使用聯合國E1C法規也均同步進行討論並陸續增訂相關系統使用的安全法規本部委託之車輛安全審驗機構災難法人車輛安全審驗中心均隨時密切關注聯合國E1C法規的討論及增訂狀況並有與國內車輛相關公協會定有討論的機制"},{"start":2255.242,"end":2262.484,"text":"明年均適時提出車輛安全檢測基準,含爆本部導入國內實施,維持國內車輛安全法規與國際接軌,並與國際先進國家發展一致。因應自駕車輛技術發展,並支持我國產業結合創新科技投入自駕車輛開發應用,國內在107年底已制定無人載具科技創新實驗條例。"},{"start":2280.377,"end":2296.155,"text":"經濟部、會同、交通部等相關部會,在安全為前提下,迄今共以核准16案自駕車計劃申請沙盒實驗,在經核准的路段、時段及特定條件下,於實際道路進行測試,目前仍有3案持續在測試實驗中。"},{"start":2298.537,"end":2323.118,"text":"為其運用自動駕駛及智慧車輛等技術促進交通運輸領域的創新。交通部智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫也支援經濟部沙盒實驗計畫,補助包括新北市、桃園市、新竹縣、台中市、彰化縣、台南市等地方政府建置自駕車輛試驗所需相關的智慧路測設備與測試,如CCTV、B路監視設備、跌打感測設備、"},{"start":2327.341,"end":2355.08,"text":"自控制設備、車聯網、自通訊設備等共同推進我國自動駕駛車輛技術務實的發展為探討後沙盒時期的銜接發展路徑並預作相關法令調適作業準備交通部在110年9月已邀請自駕車領域的學者專家籌組設置自動駕駛車輛發展策略委員會並已經聚焦以公共運輸為優先推動的政策方向"},{"start":2355.56,"end":2378.295,"text":"同時,交通部也在112年已經啟動自駕車法規調試委託研究計劃,科證銜接國際規範,先研定自駕公車實驗運行安全指引作業中,未來該指引可具體引導國內自駕公車沙盒實驗道路測試技術的發展。另外一方面,在我國電動大客車的推動方面,"},{"start":2379.865,"end":2408.18,"text":"經營碳排已經成為全球重要努力目標之一為推動運輸部門節能減碳交通部公路公共運輸計畫從民國99年開始就開始補助客運業者購置電動大客車投入營運行政院在去年4月21號核定關鍵戰略期運具電動化及無碳化行動計畫宣示2030市區公車全面電動化的目標交通部規劃三階段先導期、推廣期及普及期來"},{"start":2409.321,"end":2421.604,"text":"推動辦理。在109年到110年先導期的階段,交通部跟經濟部、環境部跨部會推動電動大客車示範型計畫。111年底以輔導兩家業者兩車型,完成十項國產化項目,完成建立電動大客車優質產品清單,並推動關鍵零組建國產化。112年"},{"start":2433.866,"end":2445.091,"text":"進入推廣期後電動大客車補助的車輛為交通部及經濟部審查通過的國產化廠牌及車型目前交通部跟經濟部仍然持續輔導國內相關車廠進行完成10項國產化項目的作業當中將可提供更多的電動大客車產品供客運業者來選擇使用"},{"start":2456.175,"end":2465.52,"text":"行政院在去年5月26日合併2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫,期年共有643.27億元,包括交通部補助購車經費450.84億元,環境部補助客運業者營運經費192.43億元,現行補助包括有購車、營運、車輛配備這個先進系統等補助項目,最高補助可達830萬元。"},{"start":2484.611,"end":2503.542,"text":"在目前已經有19個縣市陸續有電動市區公車投入營運提供服務那另外在這個路線較遠的這個一般公路客運也有29輛電動大客車至今年4月底整個電動大客車未來包括領完牌之後總共會有1944輛"},{"start":2506.584,"end":2534.741,"text":"為達到2030年市區公車全面電動化的目標,交通部已經在簡化補助申請程序,中央與地方分層審查,由地方政府提報年度汰換進度規劃,公務局會同相關單位審查後公告各縣市汰換數量目標,再由地方政府依年度目標審查合定轄管各客運業者汰換計劃,並掌握以合定計劃執行情形,定期回報目標"},{"start":2537.763,"end":2561.152,"text":"另外,針對客運業者比較關切的電動大客車充電場站的問題,經濟部跟台電公司已建立單一窗口並參與審查、解決契約容量、供電瓶頸區域。另外,在公務局公共運輸計畫也補助新設轉運站設置公共充電樁,並由地方政府持續輔導客運業者增設智慧充電系統及出輪系統。"},{"start":2562.622,"end":2575.295,"text":"交通部將持續嚴定自駕公車實驗運行安全指引,引導提升我國自駕公車沙盒實驗道路測試技術發展,並持續關注國際間自動駕駛車輛法規制度發展及趨勢,適時導入國內實施。另外,交通部也將與經濟部、環境部持續輔導"},{"start":2586.586,"end":2612.002,"text":"國內車廠對應完成國產化車型的生產製造提供更多電動大客車的廠牌車型供客運業者選擇使用未來將持續與地方政府通力合作完成2030市區公車全面電動化的目標以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝林市長請運安會林主委報告"},{"start":2626.339,"end":2638.625,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生大家好今天非常榮幸列席貴委員會向主席及各位委員報告我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車事務調查專題報告進行各位委員不立的質詢"},{"start":2640.663,"end":2665.053,"text":"本會執掌重大運輸事故資調查,調查方法涵蓋航空、水路、鐵道及公路,其通過系統性的調查,能夠發掘事故的可能噪音及安全風險,並提出改善計劃,以防止類似事件再發生。針對汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車的事故調查,以我們說明如下。有關汽車自動駕駛的事故調查方面,依據交通部"},{"start":2665.993,"end":2684.406,"text":"高速公路局的資料,自110年的1月期到113年的3月時,國道發生施工的工程緩撞車遭追撞的事故有347件,其中175輛肇事車輛配有先進駕駛輔助系統,佔全部事故的50%。"},{"start":2686.452,"end":2696.081,"text":"在175件的事務中有開啟所謂AIDAS的有91件佔配備AIDAS的52%這裡重複發生事務的太陽本會已經啟動"},{"start":2703.288,"end":2727.927,"text":"一百一十二年十一月三十二所謂小客車的國道一號大亞路段追撞工程仿傳車的事故的調查案那麼這個事故調查案我們分了操作分組、車輛分組及道路分組那麼針對駕駛的操作、車輛的這個特性、國道施工的交通管制計劃等等收集之外並持續進行後續的調查作業"},{"start":2730.339,"end":2752.701,"text":"那麼運輸安全調查委員會也透過這個參與式的調查在調查期間有邀請這個交通部、道路主管機關高工局以及監理機關公務局共同討論並邀請、並協請這個高工局針對追撞、攻城、緩撞車事故進行通報所以是112年的12月1日到112年10月30日共收到40件的通報"},{"start":2753.822,"end":2770.61,"text":"本會已經完成部分事故車輛事件資料記錄器下載,作為分析事故樣態及釐清事故原因的考量因素,並將在後續調查報告中提出改善建議。"},{"start":2771.77,"end":2788.826,"text":"有關電動大客車的事故調查方面因照運輸事故調查法定定的重大運輸事故範圍第4點有關重大公司事故的第3款其他造成人民生命、財產重大影響、寵物發生或"},{"start":2789.667,"end":2789.947,"text":"那目前呢"},{"start":2806.067,"end":2832.153,"text":"目前電動大客車的這個事務調查我們也還沒有開始來調查因為我們的調查人員的訓練能力的建構剛剛完成另外我們也修訂包含電動大客車事務調查的所謂的重大購入事務調查標準作業程序所以當我們事務通報之後我們會即刻派鞋點小組到事務現場收集資料成立專案調查小組啟動調查"},{"start":2833.632,"end":2854.491,"text":"那麼專案調查小組將會設置車輛操作道路的調查分組來調查那如果有大量的人員傷亡的話我們就會偵測這個所謂身環因素的調查分組那麼有關這個調查分組的工作項目請給他報告一下車輛分組我們會收集這個電動大客車的基本資料"},{"start":2855.93,"end":2877.62,"text":"會看查現場是否有起火、爆炸,然後確認記錄車輛的電阻索壞及起火的位置等等。同時會拍照記錄,確認殘骸各物件的位置,然後進行中外殘骸的標記及中外證物的保存。同時最重要的是要解讀電動大客車的資料記錄器、行車記錄器、行車視野輔助系統、行車電腦。"},{"start":2881.161,"end":2883.182,"text":"提供有關車載資訊、上傳雲端事務器的儲存備份,還有它的相關維修及保養紀錄等。"},{"start":2902.492,"end":2924.2,"text":"有關操作分組的話,我們會包含車輛的監理還有銷售程序。另外,道路分組,最重要是看有沒有天氣有似乎適合相當環境,尤其是道路的幾何設計、道路的工程、道路的交通工程設計是不是符合規範,並透過地點事故的統計分析,了解事故地點是不是屬於高風險、路段或重要的一個熱點。"},{"start":2926.455,"end":2940.59,"text":"有關修訂重大公路運輸事務範圍方面,因為新興運具像電動車具有ADAS車輛的普遍使用,為了能涵蓋更多交通事務的調查,本會已經開始檢討修正重大"},{"start":2941.331,"end":2960.408,"text":"公路運輸事故的範圍,我們朝兩個方向,一個是調整它的體重調查門檻,另外是擴大調查範圍的方向來進行,所以能夠將這個信息運進大陸調查的範圍。那麼這個條文的修正目前我們已經併通重大水路、鐵路的範圍的這個修訂的版本,"},{"start":2960.828,"end":2962.329,"text":"本會將彼時獨立公正專業的精神辦理重大公路運輸先進駕駛系統"},{"start":2981.422,"end":3006.038,"text":"先進駕駛輔助系統及電動車等新興運輸科技所產生的運輸調查作業。感謝各位委員不容聆聽,謝謝各位委員對本會的英文與支持,共同為提升我國公路所因為新興科技運輸的運輸安全實現努力。謝謝。好,謝謝林主委。目前介紹在場委員,游浩游委員。"},{"start":3009.54,"end":3029.91,"text":"萬美玲萬委員目前在場委員已足3人進行議事錄之處理請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處請議事錄確定接下來請經濟部產業發展所聯署長報告"},{"start":3061.912,"end":3083.488,"text":"及發展現況涉及本部業務部門的推動情形來進行專案報告在我國車輛自動駕駛技術推動情形本部產業技術是為推動無人載具科技發展以制定無人載具科技創新實驗條例並於107年11月經立法院完成三讀通過申請人可在特定實驗範圍及條件下"},{"start":3085.669,"end":3096.913,"text":"經審查確認可進行沙盒實驗．例如秦威公司與台積電合作在蘭克進行自駕電巴接駁服務實驗．目前載客人數已經達到4萬人．在我國"},{"start":3100.374,"end":3115.16,"text":"電動大客車推動政策說明,行政院111年3月30日公布《台灣2050淨零排放路徑及策略總說明》中,其中有關運具電動化及無碳化,定有2030市區公車全面電動化目標,車輛數是以11700輛為目標。本部配合交通部審查電動大客車推動計畫,據以落實推動。"},{"start":3127.825,"end":3132.606,"text":"那在國內電動大客車產業發展現況目前國內電動大客車策略業者已因應市場需求在臺灣投資擴建新廠並取得海外銷售時機華德在台中港已經投資30億元來新種電動大客車製造廠同時他在日本"},{"start":3148.854,"end":3169.138,"text":"日本的西鐵巴士合作已經在日本九州開始進行試販運行另外,承運的屏東廠整車產能一年約1,000輛並已規劃在彰化中科二輪園區投資25億元新建電動大客車同時,承運也在112年11月1日與日本兩倍集團簽訂合作協議備放錄並規劃到巴拉圭投資設廠"},{"start":3177.264,"end":3184.338,"text":"第4個本部輔導國內業者投入電動大客車整車及關鍵零組件自主開發的執行情形"},{"start":3185.851,"end":3209.063,"text":"為了要推動國內的電動大客車國產化,我們配合交通部門務實訂定109年到111年,逐年新增3年10項國產化項目那目前我們協助整個整車跟關鍵是系統零組件開發,已經累積協助有27案那總共帶動廠商在地投資有將近275億元"},{"start":3211.464,"end":3230.461,"text":"為達成2030我國市區公車電動化目標本部將持續與交通部跟客運業者進行溝通跟掌握客運的需求同時開發國產電動大客車新車型以提供國內客運業者更多車款選擇那以上報告敬請指教"},{"start":3236.589,"end":3244.273,"text":"現在進行答詢先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員5分鐘、列席委員4分鐘委員發言登記時間於10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員彙整"},{"start":3256.545,"end":3276.618,"text":"暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第2位林佩祥委員發言謝謝主席有請陳次長次長謝謝"},{"start":3287.018,"end":3302.784,"text":"委員好 社長 針對目前我們要發展所謂的電動大客車產業本席是給予肯定的 因為我目前接到最新的調查報告 全國有87%的民眾認為無碳、減碳的電動車產業在台灣是有必要的"},{"start":3308.286,"end":3330.631,"text":"但是本期會從幾個比較算是比較基礎的一些方面來去請教請教處長根據請教次長根據次長在裡面我第一個就根據這份報告裡面我剛看到的是說我們跟日本的這個電動車公司有合作那也提到說我們要設廠在巴拉圭"},{"start":3332.226,"end":3352.818,"text":"請問一下我記得在上面不知道是經濟部的報告還是交通部報告我們在我們要跟日本的電動車公司要合作然後設廠在巴拉圭然後要做有關電動校車的這個製造那本席就很好奇為什麼要設在巴拉圭呢請經濟部來做說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":3356.325,"end":3377.341,"text":"跟日本合作是日本合作市場在日本巴拉圭只要是在中南美洲的市場所以兩個市場是不太一樣的那委員請問一下第一點因為我們知道如果我們講是電動大客車的產業那這個產業鏈其實製造很多工作機會那有沒有計畫目前你們輔導有沒有計畫哪一家廠商把這個電動車產業的工作機會留在台灣呢"},{"start":3380.203,"end":3400.27,"text":"現在剛才已經有跟國務委員報告華德那個華德跟承諺目前都是在台灣這邊已經除了原來的廠又額外再投資了已經投資200多億200多億那目前我想知道的是製造多少的工作機會地點是在哪裡而且實質上未來可以製造幾起工作機會既然你今天報告是大客車產業"},{"start":3401.59,"end":3428.579,"text":"大產業鏈的形成畢竟最主要除了本身製造的產品要符合我們社會上使用之外更現實的是工作機會的製造我們台灣對於汽車產業的發展其實我們有很大的落後比起日本、韓國我們其實甚至後來在大陸我們在汽車產業上面有很大的落後我想這個是我們全國國人心中的痛那現在變成電動車產業的時候本席剛好去國外走了"},{"start":3428.979,"end":3448.56,"text":"最近去國外走了一趟發現說其他國家的電動車產業也好不管大客車還是小客車甚至自動駕駛都比本國知道的東西還先進甚至我直接我不會言我記得我四年前的時候我去我去工研院參觀了我們所謂的自動駕駛那自動駕駛那個時候居然沒有辦法上路的原因是因為坡度不足"},{"start":3449.611,"end":3450.592,"text":"波度的計算不足﹖"},{"start":3467.333,"end":3483.188,"text":"本席會認為說這樣來講不管這個技術是哪一國的技術本席認為我們國內是落後的那我想請問目前你交通部跟經濟部你們現在做法是對於自動車駕駛自動駕駛也好還是電動客車也好你們現在的態度是什麼什麼時候我們可以看到上路的電動客車"},{"start":3484.409,"end":3513.789,"text":"我們現在為什麼會問這問題最現實是現在沒有人想當司機真的沒有人想當司機本身因為這件事情則則是公路總局跟交通部特地針對他們司機的福利特地要加強但是我現在看到還是沒有什麼人願意來當司機因為人家因為大家會認為司機這個工作很辛苦而且會被人家責難的時候那自動駕駛勢必是趨勢請問經濟部甚至交通部有什麼應對的有什麼因為有這個新的科技有這新的技術而應對目前就業市場"},{"start":3514.889,"end":3532.575,"text":"我先回答經濟部這一部分其實剛才委員講的投資剛才我講的是整車成德華園已經在臺中彰化屏東投資另外其實在零組件部分在荷花鴻海在荷花投資這個投資有將近700億只要製作電池這一部分已經有創造國內的機會券另外剛才談到自動駕駛其實目前"},{"start":3535.896,"end":3559.977,"text":"在高雄那一部分在雅灣已經有在做自動駕駛的一個試營院因為這一部分技術確實是陳副委員講的還不是很成熟另外在台南的綠能沙崙科技園區也有在做這樣的試駕運行所以自駕這一部分我們經濟部是有投入一些科技經費在協助廠商在做自動駕駛這一部分那目前都已經在做一些試駕運行"},{"start":3562.723,"end":3584.68,"text":"聚焦交通部對本席的問題怎麼答詢呢?這個部分我跟委員報告一下,裡面有兩塊是這個電動大客車跟這個電動小客車的部分那第一塊就是說,剛剛有報告就是說,針對自駕的部分那目前是優先聚焦希望能夠在電動大客車就是公車這個部分能夠讓他這一個可行"},{"start":3585.06,"end":3610.152,"text":"那我也跟委員報告就是說裡面有16案這個之前申請這個沙盒實驗其中有12案是屬於這一個公司的部分那只是說現在沙盒實驗就是說雖然是某種程度之下但是人還市級還是要在這個上面那另外一個部分的話像剛剛這個林署長有提到這個台積電跟在這個蘭卡它已經有實際這個都已經有實際運賣部分那另外我們公共總局在台61"},{"start":3611.032,"end":3611.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":3626.503,"end":3646.441,"text":"好 謝謝我這邊要特地提醒因為時間關係我最近最後面提醒一件事情為什麼我把自動駕駛跟電動大客車這兩件事情拿出來講因為我們知道現在有很多公車路線基本上是不賺錢的因為不賺錢所以他們沒有人要駕駛而現在最現實就是說現在電動大客車對於偏鄉"},{"start":3647.102,"end":3648.183,"text":"請交通部及經濟部好好研究"},{"start":3665.785,"end":3693.499,"text":"知道說這個客運也好貨運也好如果說用這種電動駕駛加電動大客車勢必可以大幅度的減少成本但是如果我們不從這邊去研究而一天到晚只是針對說我們坡度問題還是說是想服務有可以賺錢的地方這樣的想法是不對的我們現在電動大客車跟自動駕駛要做的事是減少人力成本跟減少能源成本這件事我想說請交通部跟經濟部針對這個產業的發展"},{"start":3695.3,"end":3722.695,"text":"請你們好好演你好 以上好 謝謝委員我補充一句話就是有關那個剛才委員講到電巴的推動 電動巴士其實電動巴士我們推動就是希望它要智慧化所以剛才委員特別提到的自駕的這樣的我們也在電動巴士的發展的過程裡頭對於這個業者能夠符合自駕相關的一個法令我們也給予這個相關經費的輔助來輔導讓他這樣的一個電動巴士朝著智慧化來努力"},{"start":3723.495,"end":3750.836,"text":"因為今天時間不夠不然我可能會問你們說你們的車路線圖圖雲這五個方面你們現在做好哪些這其實每一個都是很專業的計算跟AI方面的計算但是老實講我看到的台灣目前是這個每個針對這方面的技術都是各自為證其實讓本席非常的擔憂因為我們這樣子我們一定趕不上人家先不要講說我們有沒有充電樁先不要講說我們有沒有其他的人來開車就跟針對這點上面的技術其實我認為我們是落後的"},{"start":3751.476,"end":3751.756,"text":"主席指教還是"},{"start":3794.592,"end":3810.279,"text":"好 請下一位委員 廖先祥委員發言好 謝謝主席喔 那麻煩我們的陳次長還有林署長"},{"start":3812.657,"end":3829.391,"text":"有請陳市長跟連署長委員好市長好、署長好那今天就是兩個單位的報告那我看到我們經濟部的報告有一個2030年科運車輛電動化推動計畫那預計要在2030年推動11700輛電動公車上路那我們交通部"},{"start":3839.239,"end":3859.713,"text":"給的資料,包括19個縣市現在陸續投入營運依領牌的大客車為1827輛,已合併117輛這兩個應該是同一個計畫嗎?是同一個計畫那請問兩位,按照目前依領牌加包括現在已合併在打造的這117輛合計1944輛"},{"start":3862.694,"end":3884.063,"text":"看起來2030年好像沒辦法達成11700輛電動車上路嘛是不是 這個進度看起來好像是有點嚴重delay啊有能力做的一開始都申請了嘛那現在申請的越來越少到現在目前這117輛在核定製作當中後續可能只會越來越少如果你們沒有幫忙業者解決一些基礎性的問題的話"},{"start":3885.305,"end":3887.286,"text":"有時候業者他不來申請不一定是錢的問題不一定是"},{"start":3914.814,"end":3940.794,"text":"製造 我想製造端應該是沒有問題這量能應該是沒有問題那也不一定只有錢的問題而是在業者他可能在廠商的設置充電裝的設置他有一些企圖性的問題導致業者他沒有意願包括可能後續回交他沒有意願來申請我覺得我們交通部應該要去了解更深層的一些原因而不是說單純就是把錢丟出來可能有一些跨部會的問題需要我們交通部來主責來協助我們的業者有更高的意願來做汰換"},{"start":3941.434,"end":3969.28,"text":"好不好我覺得都是正向的那當然就是第一開始首次嘗試的一個政策嘛那有不足的地方那再麻煩我們跨部會一起來加油好不好好我想業者在提出申請的時候我們都會請縣市政府來輔導他然後他提出整體的一個對瞭解他們為什麼有一些沒有申請的業者有些業者申請很多嘛有些業者就是沒有申請我去瞭解沒有申請業者他的原因是什麼我們來協助來輔導而且我們會特別針對非直轄市的部分縣市來輔導"},{"start":3970.74,"end":3987.507,"text":"好 謝謝那這個在討論到自駕的問題其實我之前也有在我們委員會有提到自駕的課題那一天經濟部沒來那天我有引述我們經濟部的一個案例我們有輔導我們國內的廠商到澳洲去協助澳洲在他們的高速公路建置這個大貨車的一個自駕系統"},{"start":3992.429,"end":3998.132,"text":"那其實我當初在委員會就提出來了其實我們國內在選我不知道為什麼當初我們國內在選擇自駕大客車跟大貨車的時候選擇優先發展大客車因為大客車的門檻應該是比較高的因為大客車的司機除了開車之外他可能還要處理一些人的問題乘客如果在車上"},{"start":4013.22,"end":4013.34,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4036.421,"end":4043.524,"text":"馬上擴充到全台灣去營運我就不相信你在淡水在哪邊台積電成功了你敢把這些自駕公車開去中和開去永和這不可能的嘛你頂多在台北市的中和道去做嘛所以它的規模的話會有很大的問題但是大客車"},{"start":4053.867,"end":4072.258,"text":"抱歉 更正大貨車其實它沒有這些問題它原則上我們應該是借同高速公路來推動那因為它是一個封閉型的道路它所受到的一些包括行人或其他機車所受到的干擾會比較少那包括它也不用處理人的問題包括它可能發生故障的時候"},{"start":4073.058,"end":4089.692,"text":"他所會面臨到的挑戰也會比較少那我可不可以先請教一下為什麼當初會先選擇大客車而不是大貨車來試行我們明明有這個能力去輔導國外澳洲高速公路的業者去推動那為什麼國內沒有推動反而在國內做大貨車"},{"start":4094.613,"end":4120.39,"text":"這個其實這會涉及到一些安全性的問題因為那時候會先做從大客車做事因為大客車城市委員講的它運輸的距離比較短有一些不確定因素是比較可以去做控制尤其是在我們在一些封閉式的情況下在短距離在運輸這個不確定因素是可以去控制的另外一則因為那個高速公路它有一些路途長的時候它有一些不確定因素確實是比較複雜"},{"start":4122.071,"end":4143.469,"text":"那澳洲是有開放高速公路是可以做這樣嗎?你們有沒有跟我們交通部討論過?有沒有跟我們高空局討論過?有嗎?有有有有有有嗎?有跟我們高空局討論過?那我們高空局的態度怎麼樣?我們是持一起合作的立場還是持排斥的態度?我們合作我們合作"},{"start":4146.372,"end":4162.038,"text":"跟委員報告如果說我們一些不確定的風險能夠確定的話我們是可以合作的但是現在不確定的風險實在是非常的多而且他那個車輛的一個性能狀態你都可以在澳洲走台灣高速公路不能走那個交通量是不一樣的難不成我們把危險的東西給別人"},{"start":4163.258,"end":4188.36,"text":"去做這個也不太符合我們台灣的國際形象嘛我們國內的人是在幾乎在飽和之下好沒關係那我之前其實有交委會也有提出來希望我們的大貨車的自駕系統能夠在我們高速公路去做一個呃試行嘛不是也不是試行就是啟動相關的計畫那當上次只有說啟動嘛你們也承諾了那可不可以給我一個時間表我們後期會做一個隨中有沒有辦法有人給我一個時間表"},{"start":4189.997,"end":4192.6,"text":"你們哪時候可以開始啟動?跨部會的來協商?今年好不好?今年,我給你們寬一點,今年"},{"start":4207.229,"end":4221.28,"text":"我想我們先3個月的時間研議一下吧後續如何推動或推動的構想提供給委員參考3個月內那給我後續的一些規劃的啟程好不好那這個東西就會列入紀錄嘛那我再會再追蹤好的麻煩次長謝謝市長謝謝各位我們局長謝謝好謝謝縣長委員再來請萬美林萬委員發言"},{"start":4239.682,"end":4240.083,"text":"陳彥博次長、陳文銳局長"},{"start":4249.264,"end":4249.404,"text":"4月26日"},{"start":4277.455,"end":4296.496,"text":"那針對了9005的路線 增開了兩個班次分別在6點35分7點以及9023A 7點37分那這是增加的班次但是9023A它是增加的是機動的一個班次那這個都是從我本席的選區中正義文特區來出發那但是呢 經過這20幾天將近一個月的營運"},{"start":4298.598,"end":4315.48,"text":"我想除了證明當時本席來要求增班的以及機動增班的需求的確有需要之外但是我們也發現了一些相關的問題包括這兩個路線是不是可以再優化來增班調整我想在這邊跟次長還有跟我們的局長來做一個請教"},{"start":4317.242,"end":4342.405,"text":"那我想這個我們看到9005的路線在6點35分增班的那一班幾乎班班都客滿了而且還是維持一樣上不去的一個狀態還是不夠但是7點的這一班的這個班次那可能是不是因為班次的時間還有這個起站的問題所以座位始終都還有餘裕所以我想次長跟局長我們來看一下在這個增班的班次當中是不是可以還有優化的一個空間"},{"start":4343.306,"end":4365.782,"text":"那我想我們可以再看一下9005這個車站的一個路線圖那因為9005其實在這個桃園市繞的算是蠻大圈的那從桃園火車站出發經過中路區然後來到這個義文特區上高速公路那既然在中正義文特區這前面幾站其實也有很多的民眾一直在反映就沒有辦法搭乘上這個可以去台北的路線的車"},{"start":4366.863,"end":4385.821,"text":"那所以7點開的這一班我們在中正藝文特區既然每一次都是沒有滿的情況之下我想本席在這裡建議第一個我們是不是能夠再繼續加開一個班次這是第一個那第二個我們能不能夠把這個加開的這個班次往前往前挑起站我們用這兩個方式有沒有辦法彈性來做"},{"start":4389.346,"end":4406.399,"text":"好是我想謝謝委員的指教因為確實就是說整個就是這種國道客運要上高速公路因為他在高速公路上不能站所以確實有些部分的話就是說如果說這個這個前景站的需求高後面有時候就沒辦法那"},{"start":4407.6,"end":4433.993,"text":"之前的話就是說相關的大概就是說班次的調整或單位上面的部分的話委員的指導其實有客運業者也有做了一些調整那這個部分是不是我們再來跟客運業者就是說因為有一些部分加班車局長你整整浪費我30秒沒有回答半個問題加班車的部分我們會來就是說來協調業者就是說有些部分的話我們就來做一些那個所以我想本身在這裡具體要求雖然你浪費了我快要一分鐘的時間就是9005"},{"start":4436.314,"end":4464.773,"text":"現在看起來7點正半那一班因為沒有滿但是當然我們也不能確定它是不是每一次都未滿的狀態如果能留著最好但是你看這路線圖往前看在中路地區這一圈其實需求量非常大那每一次其實也都是要排隊等很久那本席希望兩個方式第一個如果能夠再增加一班那麼從中路這個地區或者是從起站的地方再多增加一班這是一個第二個呢如果是在義文特區的話那能不能再往前一點點如果來到"},{"start":4465.593,"end":4467.214,"text":"本席希望能不能這一班的增加的班次可以變常態的增班 可以做到嗎"},{"start":4495.432,"end":4520.798,"text":"委員這個部分我們都來協調就是跟客運業者來這個剛剛委員所做的相關的這個建議的部分我們來跟業者好那再讓你去協調一個5250B那這個5250B現在的狀態當然是從盧竹發車以後就直接上高速公路去了到了南崁那能不能夠我們再繞一點點路因為我們知道我們在經國路有一個經國轉運站那那個經國轉運站其實有很多的民眾在那個地方"},{"start":4521.178,"end":4523.239,"text":"5250已經有一些部分已經有這個繞死到這個經國轉運站了那我們是不是就是說這個部分我們再來跟業者做一個協調"},{"start":4546.65,"end":4572.006,"text":"好那以上本席希望10天之內我們有一個明確的答覆好嗎再跟委員做一個報告好那最後我想再一點點時間我想本席過去在總諮詢的時候也提過那我們知道其實交通部針對我們現在客運的大客車的這個駕駛一部組我們有提出一些方案其中的公共運輸駕駛擴大徵才方案那本來是希望能夠招募客運駕駛1800人遊覽車駕駛3000人不過呢"},{"start":4576.369,"end":4580.995,"text":"我們還提出來了說這個方案呢要把它延到113年的2月29號延到114年的2月這是第一個延時間第二個我們還要加碼給他在補助訓練期間的生活津貼915元嘛對嗎對"},{"start":4592.248,"end":4598.795,"text":"對 但是呢 到目前為止你只招募到客運駕駛1031名 遊覽車駕駛125名整個達成率只有29% 非常的不理想那現在距離114年2月不到一年的時間那次長請問一下 這個方案你有信心可以達成招募4800名這麼多的司機嗎"},{"start":4612.551,"end":4612.991,"text":"那以目前的狀態來看有可能達成嗎?"},{"start":4632.671,"end":4633.492,"text":"看起來要達標還有困難但是我們希望要繼續加油"},{"start":4647.708,"end":4651.87,"text":"當然,這裡有個數據,全國客運駕駛人數從108年的3月23,005人,到113年3月19,012人,總共減少了將近4,000人。但是擴大徵才的計畫從112年的3月開始執行,可是我們看到司機人數不增反減,"},{"start":4671.821,"end":4695.427,"text":"從19165人降到今年19012人所以這個計畫下去以後還反而減少153人我想整個整體的計畫我知道大家要施行在現在是很困難但我們希望還要繼續努力那麼因此我想為了解決公共汽車客運這個司機短缺的問題我們是不是能夠借盡日本的做法研議引進外籍的司機員來彌補我國客運司機荒的問題"},{"start":4699.9,"end":4709.265,"text":"委員報告引進外籍的這個駕駛這個牽涉到我國國內勞動力的一個勞動市場當然當然就是您還要跟這個勞動部這邊在橫向的來研究嘛觀光產業當然當然所以我們有要跟勞動部相關的諮詢委員會去做出我們的評估報告去跟他們共同討論"},{"start":4722.711,"end":4739.264,"text":"公路總局大概也跟勞動部等相關單位在5月15號有開過會了後續我看我們怎麼樣來加速的來推動好 那我想這個過去這個部長他也清楚那現在當然我們新的部長今天就要上任了本期希望這個是一個全國性很嚴重的問題這個大客車、遊覽車司機缺工"},{"start":4742.967,"end":4743.368,"text":"我會來跟向部長報告"},{"start":4760.247,"end":4780.388,"text":"好,謝謝萬美營、萬委員。再接下來請何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不到。再來請徐富奎委員、徐富奎委員、徐富奎委員、徐富奎委員不到。再來請李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員不到。"},{"start":4781.108,"end":4796.375,"text":"陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員不到許智傑委員許智傑委員許智傑委員許智傑委員不到黃建豪委員"},{"start":4807.767,"end":4819.995,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們依據今天主題先邀請交通部陳次長、公共運輸跟監理室的林司長請陳次長跟司長委員好"},{"start":4821.798,"end":4848.715,"text":"市長好市長今天開始我們要討論就是我今天主要是這個電動車那2030年有個客運車輛電動化的推動計畫是由你們跟這個這個其他部門一起來推動的這個計畫希望說要編列643億來完成14500輛的公車來電動化那我想這個電動車我想為什麼會特別關注這個因為我來自台中台中是個苦主城市啊"},{"start":4850.155,"end":4869.446,"text":"電動大客車包含購車成本、營運成本、電池太舊成本跟充電廠的設置成本這四個都完備之後才有可能真正的去完成所謂的公車電動化的問題其實像編的預算2030你要完成這個部分編了643億要做14500輛換句話說等於每一輛分配到的補助大概是443萬"},{"start":4876.05,"end":4891.085,"text":"那如果這樣講的話,其實理想很豐滿,現實很骨感現實是什麼呢?以現在的這個業界,我最有所了解到的因為台中最近出現很多這個問題,所以去了解了一下這個每輛電動公車基本上它每架的造價就是上千萬"},{"start":4892.206,"end":4910.001,"text":"光是售價就上千萬那後續的包括營運成本什麼叫營運成本就包含說後面提到的電池的太舊那充電廠的設置那這些東西它基本上的營運成本是傳統油車的四倍所以政府就算去補助那我想這個虧損也非常難以彌補啦"},{"start":4910.842,"end":4930.712,"text":"那再加上說基本上之前的臺中的幾個電動公車的業者他們基本上都是用虧錢的方式在經營這個電動車轉型那再來就是電池的損耗其實大家都沒有注意到電池損耗這些損耗以現在的科技來講也是一件很可怕的事情就是我去了解他們的財報去了解業界的狀況那這個"},{"start":4933.506,"end":4946.801,"text":"電池製造商光是成本他大概就500萬電池就500萬一台車1000萬左右1000多萬電池500萬那有的會更高那第一年的衰退率大概8%那跑3到5年之後可能會衰退30%"},{"start":4948.283,"end":4974.1,"text":"那電動車他理論上他在安全維護上他需要維持所謂25%的剩餘電量那如果他用到第5年的時候他大概電池只能續航力達到45%所以幾乎到第5年的時候他就要換新車了他的這個不像我們傳統的柴油公車傳統的這個油車他可以用可能10年15年甚至20年的公車都還在室內公車都在路上跑"},{"start":4974.84,"end":4979.323,"text":"電動車因為它受限到電池這個這個損耗的問題所以這個問題我們2013年沒有推動這個客運車輛電動化的推動計畫要怎麼樣達到這個目標尤其在電池這件事情上我們有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":4990.28,"end":4990.56,"text":"沒有啊﹖"},{"start":5010.447,"end":5027.032,"text":"後面還有一段的時間另外一個技術電子密度技術的發展也非常非常的快所以有關於電子成本的部分我們在預估後面到這個年期也會那個那第二個部分剛剛委員有提到"},{"start":5028.353,"end":5044.015,"text":"臺中市包括捷順或四方我跟委員報告一下其實如果說以臺中市的4B客運業者來看的話基本上可以切成這兩類有一些就是以往專注就是客運業者的一個部分路線多規模大"},{"start":5044.355,"end":5067.63,"text":"那另外一個部分包括這個釋放客運跟這個結訓那就我所了解的部分當時應該這個背後都是屬於電動大客車的車廠那為了這個就是說他們自己本身出產產品的一個這個使用所以路線這個不多然後那另外一個部分這個這些產品也是比較這個早期的一個這個部分那我第三點跟委員提供一個這個數據如果從這個示範型"},{"start":5070.452,"end":5071.373,"text":"這一個相對的一個部分的話都比這個傳統男友都好"},{"start":5093.112,"end":5108.344,"text":"市長你的意思是說我剛剛提的數據比如說電池的損耗量以現在的這個狀況你剛剛以台北市為例好了這些新的車廠他使用電池他的損耗有提升嗎他的效率有提升嗎有有有他大概多少多久會達到50%耗損到50%"},{"start":5110.706,"end":5136.111,"text":"跟委員報告下因為從這個就是109到現在大概三年的一個這個時間那據我所瞭解目前通過示範型車廠的一個部分跟客運業者簽的有些電池的保固是到8年有些這個電池的保固是到這8年那有關於這個電池的這個部分的話其實我們跟這個產方署這邊那個效能的提升的部分都一直這個持續在做一個這個精進"},{"start":5139.291,"end":5158.056,"text":"市長跟市長其實今天主要時間也不夠了我今天提出來就是說希望在推動電動公車的同時我們電池的效能一定要把它提到一定的比例不要說好像用個一年兩年電池就壞掉了或是損耗的太嚴重那其實馬上要換新車那其他的成本就不是帳面上看到的"},{"start":5158.436,"end":5184.431,"text":"一次買一千萬而已因為它是等於它可能兩年後、三年後又要換新電子那電子成本又佔了整車的一半那這樣其實它的意義不大啦對公車業者來講它的這個營運效率會很差很差那還有幾件事情還有兩件事情要提醒一下因為時間不夠後續我們可以再討論第一個就是說現在這種電動公車它後續的充電廠站它基本上都必須要有很大的量體"},{"start":5185.071,"end":5185.111,"text":"主席"},{"start":5203.715,"end":5216.984,"text":"就說到底我們電動公車這是人員一體的到底是不是真的環保因為這電動車真的等於環保因為由於台灣現在的這個發電量台灣現在的發電的這個模式如果80%都使用火力發電的話那其實電動車它未必等於環保的問題"},{"start":5220.506,"end":5246.686,"text":"後續的回收、電池的回收、電池的回收機制這個可能跟環境部還需要再討論一下到底電動車的回收的機制怎麼走他有沒有辦法重新再利用還是回收之後就跟現在一樣各地的車廠把它拆解之後又四散到奇怪的地方去這個地方我希望說在推動電動公車在推動這種電動駕駛的時候你們要把後續的回收的這個流程要把它做好好不好"},{"start":5248.173,"end":5249.335,"text":"再有請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5277.952,"end":5279.677,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請次長有請陳次長"},{"start":5286.401,"end":5306.756,"text":"委員好 社長好 是這個今天這樣的議題很少在交通委員會列這樣的一個專題報告 這個非常好事實上在107年 立法院就三讀通過無人載具科技創新實驗條例"},{"start":5308.439,"end":5308.96,"text":"107年到現在也有好幾年了"},{"start":5330.683,"end":5340.452,"text":"那當然你們今天的報告也特別提到這個這幾年的一個努力這個也核定了2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫也就是從今年開始到19這個7年共643億643.27億元來這個推動這個"},{"start":5358.823,"end":5381.324,"text":"客運車輛電動化的一個推動計畫那這樣的一個計畫裡面的報告這個到目前是包含之前的了19個縣市陸系有電動試騎公車投入營運提供服務請問一下這個19個縣市是哪些縣市"},{"start":5385.042,"end":5399.935,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員這個報告一下大概包括六都跟其他部分我想19個部分這個倒過來22個縣市大概就是3個縣市沒有啦哪3個縣市沒有就我所瞭解3個縣市的部分應該是連江、台東跟花蓮這個南投"},{"start":5414.215,"end":5417.116,"text":"所以這個部分這個要請交通部,當然這個大家都在"},{"start":5440.131,"end":5441.092,"text":"無人載機科技創新實驗條例"},{"start":5468.625,"end":5491.867,"text":"還有包括我們其他的交通的法規道路交通的法規怎麼樣能夠透過這個一部分的縣市的推動執行然後能夠滾動修正調整提出這個修正的一個規劃或是甚至有具體的調整的修正可以嗎"},{"start":5493.368,"end":5520.806,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告下 裡面有兩塊我想這個公車自駕的那個部分我們持續跟廠方署來這個推動技術上面的發展那有關於這個就是電動大客車的普及化的這個部分的話我們今年會有另外一個重點因為目前電動大客車大概普遍集中在這個六都那我們今天希望針對六都以外的比如像包括台東、花蓮這種公車數量比較少的部分我們希望能夠把它這個盡快把它這個全電動化"},{"start":5521.727,"end":5547.118,"text":"然後讓其實這個電動化應該是在比較偏向這個部分應該優先來這個實施當然我剛現在這個計畫我知道這個計畫是跟那個無人載機還差很遠還沒有到那個地步我第一說從透過這樣的一個推動然後怎麼樣能夠往這個方向去努力讓這個可能無人載機還是會在都市地區會比較"},{"start":5549.462,"end":5552.952,"text":"會先開始委員提到的相關法規的研議或對應我們會來努力"},{"start":5556.787,"end":5582.943,"text":"另外就是說這個上次跟次長也提到了因為我禮拜六禮拜六去這個封冰箱花蓮封冰箱真的是很危險那個石頭可能不要說很大的魚一些小魚可能就會隨時會掉下來所以這個部分這個透過這一次的一個"},{"start":5586.132,"end":5606.848,"text":"對地理環境的瞭解、氣候的瞭解對地質的瞭解來充分的把它因為這個隨時會掉下來對人臉的安全真的是會很危險因為這個台11線也是這個重要的一個省道好不好有會做那個相關的一個復建工作好謝謝"},{"start":5612.725,"end":5632.657,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天才委員再來有請林德福委員發言謝謝主席,是不是請交通部陳次長有請陳次長"},{"start":5639.079,"end":5645.685,"text":"市長你好我請教因為有許多民眾在開高速公路的時候開車會開啟輔助駕駛系統根據高速公路高宮局統計112年環狀車"},{"start":5656.275,"end":5659.999,"text":"遭撞121件有77件63.6%疑似使用自動輔助駕駛系統追撞緩撞車的問題在國內有增加發生的這種趨勢讓人擔心未來自動駕駛技術的發展我請問交通部追撞問題能夠解決嗎"},{"start":5681.378,"end":5708.257,"text":"我簡單講再說明一下然後再請林市長來做補充原則上防撞拖車在高速公路上自駕所引起的這樣的一個事故我們大概分幾個面向第一個是車子的本身跟使用手冊上我們要去清楚的請車商去說明現在的這種不是自動駕駛其實它是一個輔助駕駛人的因素還是很重要那這上面那對於車商當然我們也會做一些調查那詳細的情形我請林市長來做說明"},{"start":5709.811,"end":5721.138,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下目前大概車輛配備的部分都叫做這個輔助駕駛系統都還沒到所謂的自動駕駛這個系統那我們也怕就是說這些相關車商在這個銷售車輛是有過度的這個宣傳"},{"start":5726.101,"end":5748.887,"text":"那這個就是車主在使用的時候有過度不當的一個使用所以大概剛剛次長講的部分我們分幾個層面第一個部分在要求這個車商或是代理商在車主使用手冊所配備的這個輔助駕駛系統都要這個明確去說明他的一個功能使用限制那你不能全部都對給車商啊我認為說立法院法制局有建議說倒交條例"},{"start":5751.888,"end":5767.357,"text":"徵定有關自動駕駛之違規行為太樣與華澤那交通部你們的看法如何?這個部分我跟委員報告分兩塊針對這個現在這個輔助駕駛系統的部位依規定所還是要放在這個方向盤上面"},{"start":5767.517,"end":5768.938,"text":"我認為這個很重要因為立法院也以多次來修法提高這個"},{"start":5791.594,"end":5811.453,"text":"處罰酒駕,那酒駕除了罰錢外,還會吊扣以及吊銷他的駕照。那今年3月有媒體報導說,有民眾第15次酒駕被抓,那許多酒駕的累犯還是無照駕駛,甚至於危害大眾的交通安全。"},{"start":5812.794,"end":5837.911,"text":"那為了解整個酒駕累換、無照駕駛的這種情形請交通部一個月內啊你們把它整理出來一年的資料說明10年內啊第三次酒駕累換或據測的累換而且無照駕駛之統計資料給本席有沒有困難沒有我們來提供給委員那對於酒駕累換、花錢不怕、吊銷駕照"},{"start":5839.602,"end":5857.316,"text":"他也不痛不癢那喝酒無照繼續上路請問交通部未來會如何改善這個問題呢跟委員報告一下委員剛剛所提的這個課題去年在修正處罰條例的時候那也特別考量這個部分第一點就是無照駕駛本身提高法緩"},{"start":5857.816,"end":5885.464,"text":"那第二個部分針對酒駕這個銷價在於這個駕車的部分的話就是在於加法一萬兩千塊那另外一個部分的話就是把這樣子的情況列入這個相關發生事故這個加重刑刑二分之一來做一個處理我認為齁這個累換齁而且一次一次齁這個要危害到就是其他人的生命這是很嚴重的問題啊交通部一定要重視"},{"start":5887.674,"end":5906.265,"text":"好不好我想委員這累翻的其實在處罰條例是一直在修啦對啊在加重啦是加重我們再來再看總是因為我提了一個法上次就要公佈有公佈但是我認為甚至於有的公佈他根本就他已經沒有辦法已經批了沒有辦法改了啦"},{"start":5909.847,"end":5923.319,"text":"所以我們相關的這個刑法上也其實酒駕現在其實是以刑法在處理所以整體性上來委員特別提到的我們一個月內提出資料的時候看有沒有什麼建議再向委員來做因為酒駕遭調"},{"start":5924.633,"end":5928.234,"text":"一年內要開車或騎車依規定車輛都應該要加裝酒精鎖根據110年12月統計酒駕、吊銷、駕照、重新考照有2598人車子有裝酒精鎖的卻只有103輛而已103輛"},{"start":5951.402,"end":5979.514,"text":"那酒精所執行成效似乎也不佳啦那請交通部一個月內你們把它整理酒精所相關執行的統計、數據啊汽車與機車要分別統計來整理那此外交通部過去說要修法要求酒駕在考駕照的話必須要開著裝有酒精所的車輛來應考像這些修法你們哪時候可以提出版本來"},{"start":5980.555,"end":5995.214,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告就是剛剛委員關切的那個課題所以在去年也修了就是說如果酒駕被吊銷駕駛執照重新再來考照的時候要核發駕照他就必須要有酒精所的車輛"},{"start":5996.055,"end":6012.994,"text":"我才會核發駕照給他如果沒有這樣的車輛都不發駕照所以後來就是說以往剛剛委員講的那個情況到目前大概就是說他沒有加裝走行鎖的車輛他即使考驗合格了建立機關依法也不能核發駕照給他"},{"start":6013.635,"end":6029.581,"text":"我是希望說因為酒駕累犯也不少而且這也危害到周遭民眾甚至於你看這個大馬路上他酒駕他已經幾乎自己都沒有辦法自控了那"},{"start":6030.481,"end":6030.601,"text":"主席"},{"start":6055.559,"end":6059.482,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請交通部陳次長跟運安會林主委請次長跟主委"},{"start":6082.394,"end":6097.6,"text":"市長2030我們希望達到公車全面電動化那到底會有多少輛的公車要有電動化?以我們的規劃大概11700輛那到現在還有6年的時間可以達成這個目標今年2024年到目前為止你的報告裡面是1944輛"},{"start":6109.105,"end":6121.662,"text":"換言之還有將近9500輛左右需要達到這個目標9500輛來我們有跟委員有規劃啦原則上今年大概要有25%然後在這個這個"},{"start":6129.691,"end":6154.371,"text":"預計今年年底要達到多少量電動化3000多量3000多量去年底本來目標是2030量就跳票了嘛那目前是落後將近20%本席希望你達到我先開宗明義先講我今天來質詢是希望我們能夠督促我們的目標達成因為既然你已經訂下一個2030年要全面電動化我們再檢討好不好"},{"start":6155.271,"end":6183.534,"text":"所以我現在只是想確認是說今年年底可以有3000多輛有保證嗎跟我們報告一下確實這個去年稍微稍微落差那今年的目標量是3300輛3300輛民購保證缺額大概是1300多輛那目前這個公共總局各地方政府包上來的大概已經審查當中的1200多輛所以相關這個1300多輛的部分今年年底都可以這個核定然後來打造車輛"},{"start":6184.246,"end":6200.333,"text":"不要美化數字啦我們要的是能夠真的上路嘛 對不對你的達成不是說到最後審查通過然後沒有辦法真的上路我們現在講的都是說在真的領牌領牌的車輛是1900多輛嘛 對不對"},{"start":6204.076,"end":6222.996,"text":"兩個部分是民眾或說這個客運業者認為說現在為什麼電動化巴士那麼困難的原因我想之前媒體有報導本身也去做了解也聽了很多業者的一個心聲兩個第一國產電動大巴選擇性太少到目前為止有幾個廠商合格廠商"},{"start":6224.465,"end":6246.124,"text":"報告委員目前通過這個十項國產化的部分有兩家兩家廠商連汽車客運業者都講說這三年來只有晨運跟華德兩家取得據了解還有三四家同業努力爭取符合示範型的補助計畫沒有通過可能真的是因為門檻太高這是業者講的"},{"start":6247.571,"end":6258.231,"text":"那到目前為止本席也納悶了既然大家我們也希望是用推動電動化那能夠取得這樣子一個合格部分只有這兩家那會不會真的是門檻太高"},{"start":6260.083,"end":6281.507,"text":"跟我們報告一下目前通過是這兩家那其實有三家一直我們跟這個經濟部一直在補導應該最近啦應該最近會有新通過的這個已經有廠商有取得有可能大概就是在這個經濟部的分組裡面大概已經審查的通過了我們後續會召開這個委員會來做審查確認"},{"start":6285.188,"end":6312.808,"text":"那另外也有講到第二個問題是臺電不給電業者很苦惱就是配電的部分因為很多業者也很多客運業者叫苦連天啊講說在電動巴士的這個充電柱依賴臺電的電力供給但是臺電的電力供給在每一個地方因為電動巴士可能停放的地方相對來講是比較空曠的地方那空曠的地方也許他的電網就配置的沒有那麼足夠所以"},{"start":6313.729,"end":6339.144,"text":"南港、內湖、新北市本期的巴黎臺電當初規劃就沒有想到會有增加那麼多的用電量那現在突然間說要用電動巴士了就會碰上供電瓶頸那在這個部分我們公路總局以及相關單位能夠怎麼樣協助否則會變成是說我們到2013年的時候我們大家都是用電動巴士結果電動巴士放在那邊沒有電可以用沒有電可以充"},{"start":6340.348,"end":6362,"text":"他要設置充電樁沒有辦法設置臺電的供電供電不了來各位委員報告剛才委員提的那個中山、松山、內湖、蘭崗他因為那個臺電的那個要建一個松湖超高壓變電所現在建造已經拿到了齁那預計今年7月可以新建完成就可以解決剛才委員講的那些問題主要是變電站的問題那其他勒"},{"start":6363.638,"end":6380.689,"text":"本席的巴黎其他各縣市你剛剛講的是台北嘛台北相對來講以本席出錢的推估因為人口數比較多嘛比較容易建設嘛那但是其他縣市呢你一萬兩千多台電動巴士難道只有在台北市嗎還是全台灣都要有"},{"start":6381.549,"end":6409.165,"text":"我跟委員報告 原則上這個客運業者在提出這個申請的時候我們大概都會跟地方政府再來好 幫你說明一下跟委員報告 目前整個在受理要有電動車、公車、充電、利用站總共有84件那已經解決79件那5件現在正在進行施工市長 那回來了我覺得這一點喔不要聽美化的數字 說實在話"},{"start":6410.819,"end":6432.511,"text":"你現在每年逐步成長增加剛剛也提到你現在到今年年底只有百分之以你的標準25%就已經讓所有業者都認為是說供電站沒有辦法好好的供應這25%了到往後的6年裡面你的成長是300%你要從25%成長到100%你的供電系統基礎建設有沒有辦法成長300%這才是關鍵"},{"start":6440.735,"end":6454.193,"text":"所以本席今天提出來的問題在於是我們應該要協助交通部這邊應該要主動協助就是說客運業者跟我們的台電以及經濟部這邊來做一個商討哪邊應該要加強電網"},{"start":6456.602,"end":6482.648,"text":"這一點才是重點吧是我想委員建議提示的很好這部分我們會跟經濟部共同來努力其實現在這個國道服務區有關那個充電裝電網就是用這樣的方式跟台電來預為規劃所以他們已經就這個高速公路服務區的電網以這樣的單位相關單位是誰來做主要的負責主要的負責公路總局嗎公路局嗎還是路政司"},{"start":6484.209,"end":6485.67,"text":"交通部跟經濟部什麼時候要開會?"},{"start":6503.879,"end":6526.626,"text":"你讓本席知道一下吧我們一個月內來召開會議一個月內召開供電配置跟電動車協調的一個會議還是好 謝謝來最後那個主委剛剛運安會主委本席上一次您來的時候有特別跟您瞭解質詢過就是我們現在電動車來可以先請回抱歉我最後一分鐘就好"},{"start":6527.697,"end":6553.055,"text":"主委本席那時候有跟您請教過就是有關於說我們電動車現在產生那麼多的事故你那個時候跟大家講的是預計明年5月調查報告出爐嗎現在會不會有提前的狀況大家都那麼關心今天我們又再一次的針對汽車自動駕駛系統進行專案報告你還是堅守你的調查事故要到明年5月才能出爐嗎"},{"start":6554.463,"end":6577.579,"text":"我們6月份就有一個事實資料調查報告出來然後明年的6月嗎明年的6月就會全部報告出來因為我們現在有一個案子更晚喔不是啦本來是明年5月現在變明年6月啊不是我剛剛講錯了那個事實資料報告可不可以查清楚再講不然這樣大家會很錯愕來請"},{"start":6580.733,"end":6608.713,"text":"來,我請指示這個數字兩個報告委員好,報告委員我們的那個事實資料報告我們會在今年的6月份我們會發布那明年的5月份我們會發布調查報告那雖然是明年5月份但是我們目前正在加速進行所以希望能夠看能不能在今年年底之前能夠盡速完成好,來,主委"},{"start":6610.312,"end":6615.948,"text":"這個就是大家想要聽到的是社會大眾大家都關心的時候我們要積極的作為"},{"start":6618.076,"end":6639.386,"text":"6月的時候會讓大家先知道是說我們電動車的一些事故發生的一個成因那希望能夠趕在今年年底能夠有最終調查結果是這樣嗎應該是這樣沒有錯那本席想要確認一下今天你有特別提到修訂重大公路運輸範圍事故範圍有朝降低啟動調查門檻跟擴大調查範圍的方向進行"},{"start":6642.307,"end":6664.828,"text":"沒有錯你的思考方向是怎樣原來的重創事故調查範圍裡面它公路、水路、航空它是一體的沒有公路我們現在是講公路公路的部分我們本來是門檻是要4個人死亡我們現在把它降低3位以上死亡3位就可以調查然後它的範圍方便我們也可以用這裡面講的所謂的霸王條款只要"},{"start":6665.789,"end":6667.691,"text":"所以那跟現行的法規有什麼不同?沒有不同"},{"start":6680.868,"end":6703.069,"text":"那沒有不同,你在跟我們講說你要修改、啟動、降低調查門檻、擴大調查範圍然後又說沒有不同,你這樣是裝嚇我各位本席特別提出為什麼會特別問這一句就是因為現行法規是除了第一點事故重大死亡第二點發生爆炸以及相關的危害物品以及第三點"},{"start":6704.97,"end":6724.872,"text":"財產重大影響重複發生或是情況特殊致影響公路運輸安全且經運安會認定有調查之必要就可以啟動調查換言之重複發生情況特殊影響公路運輸安全運安會認定就可以調查這就是現行法規的規範"},{"start":6726.013,"end":6754.221,"text":"那電動車的這個事故從2016、2017年開始大家比較普及用電動車高速公路上一而再再三發生事故我們之前就調出數據嘛高速公路去年有一百多件快兩百件的這種電動車自駕而造成的狀況當然是不是最終都是因為自駕所發生的不一定但是至少已經有一兩百件每年那就是重複發生那就是影響公路安全那就是運安會認定可以調查就調查了"},{"start":6754.801,"end":6777.7,"text":"所以根本不需要去修法才能說我來去做所以這一點本席要講的是做與不做其實現行法規就已經可以給你們全力去做這也是我們期待成立運安會的時候應該要做的事情不要再搪塞說我要再修訂好像現在不管你們的事要修訂之後那啟動修法"},{"start":6778.795,"end":6800.283,"text":"還要多久?你說還要送委員會,委員會之後送交通部交通部之後送行政院,行政院之後再送來立法院,立法院再審查光修法又要再修一年兩年,這樣講對嗎?我們現行條文就可以啟動電動車,但是我們的修正是要把一些新興的運具也納進來,一道納進來那還有什麼?還有什麼比電動車現在自駕更嚴重的新興運具?電動車的部分我們已經 還有什麼?"},{"start":6807.543,"end":6831.741,"text":"還有一些新鮮的硬句還有什麼影響那麼範圍那麼廣然後新鮮硬句主委拜託我們今天好好講事情本席點出來荒謬之處是希望我們所有的行政人員好好的做不要做紙上文章我們真的能夠找出問題找出問題找出原因解決原因這才是國人想看到的可以嗎可以謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":6834.964,"end":6837.806,"text":"謝謝何孟楷委員最後請陳正前委員發言謝謝主席我想請一下陳彥博次長請次長"},{"start":6856.209,"end":6876.376,"text":"市長好行政院曾經提出2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫那剛剛你有回應就說在目標在2030年之前要推動11700輛電動巴士這數字沒有錯嗎?是沒有錯那同時在2030年的時候也提到了一個市區公車要全面電動化這也沒有錯對不對?"},{"start":6877.336,"end":6877.596,"text":"市區公車"},{"start":6896.442,"end":6914.334,"text":"不包含旅遊業者的巴士不包含那這邊的時候因為我們這邊有同時提到了就在這個計畫裡面我們7年總共要補助就是450.84億補助購買車輛對不對然後另外就是整個營運補助192.43億"},{"start":6920.798,"end":6946.256,"text":"那我想請教一下,到目前為止,我們現在補助出去的車輛總共有多少?我們現在補助出去的車輛到目前有1944輛1944輛嗎?那1944輛裡面有多少是補助到新竹市這邊來的?新竹市目前是籌備中的有10輛"},{"start":6947.884,"end":6972.916,"text":"只有籌備中嘛 對不對就表示新竹市...所以說我要講的狀態就是說就新竹市的補助量其實顯然是少的那我們很需要新竹市是一個科技城我們很需要有更多的一個補助在這個地方那我們希望接下來新竹市這邊有提出來的所有的補助計畫的時候中央部這邊能夠給予多多的支持"},{"start":6973.687,"end":6977.991,"text":"對於非市區公車的部分的一般旅遊的巴士的時候,我們有沒有自動化的一個推動的計畫?"},{"start":6997.575,"end":7020.776,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下剛剛就是說有氧車的部分因為目前相關電動的一個續航力的那個部分還有它的限制那所以這個部分的話我們也在滾動這個相關技術的一個這個發展那如果說它相關的續航力有到那個地方的話我們會這個來做一個這個推動那另外一個部分我也跟委員報告那個新生這個"},{"start":7022.177,"end":7045.853,"text":"新增能源的部分那我們也在推動這個氫燃料電池這個氫的那個部分那可能未來遊覽車這個上山下海比較長旅程這個部分這個可能是一個解決方案但是這個技術也目前在在長旅程的部分的時候我們自動車也許還沒有那麼適合可是我們在整個先進駕駛輔助系統當中的時候也許是可以先"},{"start":7046.733,"end":7048.314,"text":"公務總局現在每年的這個遊覽車的一個評鑑裡面就有包括配備先進系統納到這個評鑑項目裡面來"},{"start":7069.309,"end":7070.189,"text":"臺灣總共有多少特斯拉?"},{"start":7095.26,"end":7109.92,"text":"我特別要問的是因為美國全國公共交通安全管理局就是近三年的調查報告指出特斯拉有關鍵性的安全缺陷那針對這個部分我們國內有沒有做一個相關的調查"},{"start":7112.177,"end":7115.1,"text":"美國有開放全自動輔助駕駛,台灣有沒有開放?"},{"start":7129.915,"end":7137.82,"text":"跟委員報告目前就是在沙盒裡面特定路段、特定時段、特定條件在做試運行"},{"start":7159.975,"end":7162.377,"text":"沙盒的部分是屬於技術測試的部分"},{"start":7176.647,"end":7198.14,"text":"那真正就是說要到這個就是說真正實際道路可以去開放這個自動駕駛的部分目前在技術上面都還有距離啊但是在我們報告裡面也說明那相關因應的法規調適我們現在已經開始在做準備了OK好以上謝謝委員好謝謝陳正前委員這個請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":7215.242,"end":7221.865,"text":"謝謝主席是麻煩有請交通部的政事以及國家運安會的主委有請次長、主委黃偉昊委員長次長、主委好也許上一次質詢的主題我非常的納悶"},{"start":7240.717,"end":7264.816,"text":"之前我說了台鐵莫名其妙去拿了幾千萬搞了行控4.0跟台鐵既有的系統根本不合連運安會都這樣講我看這幾千萬阿是打水漂阿沒有了啦沒有了啦台鐵雖然說要再評估一年兩年我打開天窗說兩話緩兵之際阿"},{"start":7269.073,"end":7290.038,"text":"我在追查這個離譜事情的同時我發現台鐵拿了幾千萬給一家莫名其妙的公司叫李力來請上面看清楚我上次質詢已經講了我們給李力經濟部給他優良認證廠商理由是什麼他有去美國"},{"start":7291.704,"end":7320.286,"text":"Jacksonville transportation去參加自駕車的系統臺灣廠商打入美國自駕車臺灣之光啊這個事情要大書特書啊但我後來直接跟美國聯絡人家說根本沒他的事啊他沒有參與啊Jacksonville Transportationportation的首爾提給我的答案是說跟這家廠商沒有關係啊我那時候想說天啊我們臺灣政府怎麼這麼好騙啊"},{"start":7322.881,"end":7344.368,"text":"一個莫名其妙的廠商編了一個莫名其妙的理由我們的經濟部還發給他優良廠商發給他優良廠商就算了啊那只是虛名啊但拿到優良廠商以後來看一下除了騙台鐵行控4.0做了一個莫名其妙的沒有用的東西出來搞了幾千萬來 市長"},{"start":7346.889,"end":7373.911,"text":"跟運安會主委一起看一下齁臺南自駕車系統臺南市政府給2360萬經濟部補助5200萬狀態中止補助拿完了然後呢來有人知道現在發生什麼事嗎有人知道發生什麼事嗎拿了快要7500多萬有人知道現在發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":7375.885,"end":7401.943,"text":"市長知道嗎我不是很了解但是我了解他是應該是經濟部的沙盒的計畫裡面主委知道嗎你也不知道政府很有錢錢丟下去咚一聲幾千萬沒有感覺台中自駕車系統台中市政府給一千五經濟部給五千四百萬也很有錢啊"},{"start":7404.631,"end":7416.681,"text":"結果呢 什麼都沒有啊來我具體請教一下市長啊你們目前的評估按照你們的規劃台灣的自駕車系統還要多久才會成熟"},{"start":7418.387,"end":7443.777,"text":"我跟委員報告自駕車他其實剛才有特別提到他先會要在先沙盒裡面要去做試驗我了解前面講過都不要複述了需要多久接下來的話他其實還有一些我也了解需要多久請針對問題回答這目前我想無法評估要多久有賴這個整個車商大家共同五年有可能嗎十年有可能嗎"},{"start":7444.827,"end":7468.059,"text":"都要努力啦都要努力嘛所以連10年都未必嘛好你們要接下來要發展自駕車啊老實說推動科技的發展讓人類的生活更好我基本上是支持的但我要拜託一下次長挑選廠商的時候啊找真正優良有時機的不要找這種政商關係良好的詐騙廠商啊"},{"start":7469.858,"end":7488.139,"text":"李立系統在民進黨系統裡跟誰好?你們不知道嗎?不知道坐得到交通部這個位置嗎?市長李立的老闆認不認識?知不知道是民進黨哪個派系的?知不知道?不是了解"},{"start":7488.581,"end":7513.649,"text":"不如這了解沒關係新的部長來我再問新的部長看他到底是了解還是不了解時間的關係我不要妨礙接下來委員質詢的時間雖然今天質詢的時間好像比較多但我還是要尊重其他的委員我只有一個原則要發展這件事情我都支持要找找有能力的廠商不是找這種政商關係良好的詐騙廠商可以嗎"},{"start":7514.902,"end":7517.004,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員那接著請徐欣穎委員發言徐欣穎委員發言完休息10分鐘"},{"start":7539.144,"end":7557.214,"text":"謝謝主席本席請陳正次還有我們經濟部的連署長請次長、署長委員好次長好本席想要請教這個次長跟署長我們從108年到現在我們的無人自駕車相關的經費"},{"start":7568.715,"end":7597.086,"text":"交通部跟經濟部分別投入多少交通部我手上的這些資料我可能要匯後提供再給委員所以都不知道這這麼多年來有關無人自駕因為今天請你們來報告我們就很想看那在交通部的這個報告裡有講到有補助然後有支援沙盒計畫但是都沒有講"},{"start":7597.526,"end":7624.051,"text":"我跟委員報告一下在自駕的尤其是沙盒實驗裡面我們大概是補助這個路側的設施啦或車輛的OBU等等的那經費大概多少在ITS的計畫裡面啦對ITS對所以經費不敢講那經濟部來我們請經濟部一年差不多有1.5億在做研發部分那我是說這麼多年來你大概補助了多少嗯"},{"start":7628.535,"end":7654.685,"text":"109到113年經濟部十幾億啊本席手上的資料我們一年有1.6億那個經費只要是廠商有來申請才有合併因為我們現在補助了六個案子應該差不多在一到兩億左右那我請教現在無人自駕在世界各國投入比我們更多的預算有成功嗎"},{"start":7656.26,"end":7676.729,"text":"目前都還沒有都沒有成功而且本席手上的資料我就看到很多好像美國美國的Cruise無人計程車全國暫停營運因為發生太多的事故太多的問題那剛好本席也"},{"start":7678.257,"end":7702.113,"text":"有看到剛好有到對岸看到他們這個小米汽車無人自駕區的整個實驗區我發現這個如果真的要做政府要很有決心而且要投入全力來支持包括我們交通部一直在進行的法規方面還有"},{"start":7703.434,"end":7718.91,"text":"這個整個的測試那需要花費很大本席的立場是覺得我們台灣已經落後就是比人家起步慢而且落後還有我們真心想投入的決心也不夠所以"},{"start":7719.912,"end":7740.164,"text":"我感覺我們投入的錢都像剛剛黃國昌委員說的打水漂不然我覺得你們就是做公關而已因為你真的要做你就要有決心就是要做成那你要投入的資源絕對不是像你現在這樣那你現在投入不多不少但實際上"},{"start":7741.425,"end":7764.3,"text":"那個錢對我們來說我覺得已經很多可是你根本很難有成功的機會啊所以這一塊我看到過去第9屆第10屆也很多委員有提到說不希望投入太多所以你們的決策一定要明確那今天你"},{"start":7765.645,"end":7782.211,"text":"這個根本不太可能你做得不上不下等於沒有做但是你浪費了多少公帑這個是本席今天質詢的重點好那再來因為我時間有限我接下來我們請署長回座我想請教次長"},{"start":7783.411,"end":7802.36,"text":"市長,這個大海,或者是很強力的水柱對人是會有傷害的,但是一滴兩滴的水對人來說,大家都不擔心,一滴兩滴,但是卻有滴水穿石。"},{"start":7803.3,"end":7819.485,"text":"好 這種事情那我要強調的是什麼我要強調的是你這個滴水它很小的力量可是它持續性它可以穿石所以本席要針對我們交通部隔音牆的部分"},{"start":7820.305,"end":7824.729,"text":"現在很多地區需要隔音牆,你們設定80分貝,那本席就要強調的是,沒錯,如果是幾秒鐘,或者是甚至一分鐘、兩分鐘,你80分貝以上,對人產生很大的問題。"},{"start":7839.102,"end":7865.131,"text":"但是長期呢對於很多的住戶長期他睡眠的時間所以本席要強調的為什麼我舉低水穿石就算他力道很沒有到達你的分貝數但是他continuous他長期持續不斷他就是一個傷害力我再舉一個例子我們肩上啊我們肩上背10公斤8公斤對我們來說沒什麼"},{"start":7866.371,"end":7877.797,"text":"對不對但是如果要我背100公斤我大概我就骨折了可是我10公斤的我持續背一年都沒有停的話我身體就變形了"},{"start":7878.723,"end":7901.966,"text":"所以我們人暴露在這種長期噪音之下雖然它只有70分貝70幾分貝你們要80分貝才能做隔音牆那其實對民眾造成非常大的問題所以今天本席在這裡諮詢是要請交通部這個部分你們要改變而且要重視再加上我相信大家知道現在社會變遷"},{"start":7904.511,"end":7924.843,"text":"這種憂鬱症各方面還有大家對聲音的這種忍受度都變弱了對聲音的忍受度都變弱了所以今天因為時間短本席在這邊簡單的講但是我們希望交通部針對隔音牆你要幾分貝還有你要看地區狀況的情況"},{"start":7926.744,"end":7944.563,"text":"我們要做改善那要來改善我們民眾這種長期被因為交通的這個聲音影響睡眠影響生活品質的問題這部分可不可以請部長可不可以未來我們來研擬我們來改善"},{"start":7946.834,"end":7954.078,"text":"我們來跟環保署來討論一下因為相關的這種噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢"},{"start":7974.73,"end":7976.691,"text":"本席最後一個議題就是說我們整個台61線西濱快速道路"},{"start":8003.721,"end":8018.473,"text":"這個新竹鳳鼻道香山段只剩10公里一直還沒有高架我們交通部有沒有規劃應該要盡快補足這一段10公里他那邊塞車假日平時都塞得很厲害我相信你們也有掌握這個情況"},{"start":8019.013,"end":8019.934,"text":"謝謝許新委員現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8075.114,"end":8076.275,"text":"發言人﹚"},{"start":8086.521,"end":8087.301,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8127.57,"end":8128.21,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8149.497,"end":8153.202,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8181.834,"end":8198.238,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8239.453,"end":8255.1,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8275.157,"end":8288.027,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8318.148,"end":8323.389,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8328.729,"end":8334.865,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8370.09,"end":8377.574,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8382.601,"end":8390.944,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8422.415,"end":8431.642,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8447.462,"end":8451.423,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8466.186,"end":8477.693,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8532.51,"end":8533.291,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8544.697,"end":8551.239,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8590.62,"end":8590.981,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8608.49,"end":8615.993,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8659.257,"end":8660.098,"text":"現在繼續開會,我們請羅廷維委員發言。"},{"start":8677.108,"end":8683.887,"text":"好 謝主席 請幫我有請政次以及公共運輸林市長好 請次長跟市長"},{"start":8686.534,"end":8708.967,"text":"市長你好市長今天我們主要的這個題目其實非常好這個電動車不管是大型的電巴以及我們現在所說的社區的充電樁因為都會影響到我想一併討論那雖然我是外委員會是教育文化但今天我對這個議題也非常的關注"},{"start":8709.887,"end":8721.589,"text":"那我想先跟您請教一下您對這個我國電動大客車推動的一個狀況您目前知道剛剛執行區這麼多我們都在台底下聽喔你大概知道整個問題點困境在哪裡嗎"},{"start":8724.051,"end":8745.232,"text":"我想整個來講應該還是相關的這個車輛的多元性可能要趕快讓客運業者有選擇因為他跟他們以前在買電大客車的這個營運的環境是不太一樣的所以我想我們如何來創造車輛的多元是未來的一個目標"},{"start":8745.812,"end":8773.832,"text":"至於說車輛的本身因為我們有經過國產化或者是車輛安全法規它的性能上因為我們是有相當的一個把握我相信你們對這個一定有把握但是我覺得多元性讓他們能夠選擇還是必要的但是我想提到幾個點包括第一個我們在這個做公車您覺得就是所謂的通勤組通勤組最大宗的使用者大概是哪一類你知道嗎"},{"start":8776.448,"end":8778.45,"text":"實用者變少,客運在每一分錢的成本營運就會非常計較"},{"start":8798.408,"end":8813.243,"text":"那所以成本營運對他們來說不管是購入剛剛其實我們主席黃建華委員有提出購入這個電吧的成本支柱必獎因為他們在每一分每一塊錢他們都必須算得很清楚才可以了解到底會不會賺錢"},{"start":8814.304,"end":8838.221,"text":"那再來缺工問題剛剛我有聽到有的人對於這個司機啊我們現在所說的希望能夠提高司機的相關權利以及他們的薪資你們有回答正在努力當中有去做一些培訓但我想培訓的數字啊並不是很滿意對吧您可以接受這個數字嗎我們還要再繼續努力到目前為止已經有1660幾位你的目標呢"},{"start":8842.063,"end":8845.825,"text":"呃...應該我的了解是...1800人嗎?還是...您覺得這...不管是1600到1800,您覺得補上這1800全國缺工的問題就可以解除嗎?"},{"start":8856.496,"end":8871.187,"text":"整體性上還要來努力啦所以為什麼不管是一千六或是一千八的人員原額補上我們就可以解決我想是不行的那到底為什麼只能到一千八我們是不是應該討論一下這個方案是不是有問題"},{"start":8872.188,"end":8887.985,"text":"那當然有其他的委員提出是不是有機會外國的司機來幫忙去做這樣子的一個工作提供當然這是有可能地方會有爭議大家可能會需要討論但是我覺得現在"},{"start":8888.525,"end":8905.734,"text":"我們最第一線的民意代表就是接到民眾對於所謂的司機不足大量的減班然後現在我們說已經大量的減班了我們又還要再來推所謂的電動巴士全面汰換我覺得這部分是會有一些牽連當然"},{"start":8907.515,"end":8934.422,"text":"當然現在近臨我們都希望能夠零碳排這個是我們的目標當然還有所謂的充電樁設置的一個問題充電樁設置你跟我講我記得剛剛有提到一個數字好像70幾個已經正在完成還有5站正在設置當中但是我個人還是覺得這個部分都是讓所有的目前電巴的業者很擔憂的一個問題就我也有收到一些"},{"start":8936.583,"end":8955.738,"text":"客運的業者跟我們講電池阿他們預估可以使用8年現在呢用到3年就即將要汰換這些都是他們的營運成本我覺得這都很擔憂再來我想問您有掌握到我們現在社區充電樁目前的困境嗎電動車充電樁不是電吧喔是電動車社區充電樁"},{"start":8963.134,"end":8982.628,"text":"跟委員報告目前整個這個充電樁的一個這個部設的部分大概經過部裡面這一兩年的一個部分的話在公共停車場還有私人停車場的部分其實數量是有相當那剛剛我們提到說社區的部分其實就是最後最後一裡這個社區這個自由停車場這個充電的一個這個課題"},{"start":8985.73,"end":9006.497,"text":"委員會提出專法配套?這個部分的話就是了解內政部這個國土署已有提出那個公立大廈那個條例的修正草案目前好像是在這個行政院當中你們有跨部會討論過嗎?這個部分有參考你的意見嗎?這個我們會後面會配合這個行政院的一個審查我們會參與"},{"start":9007.717,"end":9032.054,"text":"我想要推電動車利益良善我們都支持但我自己長期在跑地方我們都會去社區區權會每一次討論到所謂的社區要裝設充電裝都會有很大的問題要先經過管委會這一站政府又沒有去專法配套再來台電在設置上有一些些要排隊還有困境要排成很久然後再來呢又還有所謂的契約用電的問題"},{"start":9032.935,"end":9057.61,"text":"公電的量的一個問題我想這些小型的充電樁都會反映出我們連這個社區型都沒辦法處理還想要處理大型電巴的問題這個都是整體聯動的我希望這部分我們提出的問題今天時間有限沒辦法把整個東西完善的去講出來但我想台中有所謂的四方電巴現在有所謂的退出我想你們都有掌握"},{"start":9057.91,"end":9072.96,"text":"那到底為什麼其實大家都知道裡面的內容你應該去研究一下最後這裡面有提到有1900多輛1944輛所謂的電動大客車的補助對吧目前台中的補助是多少有掌握嗎"},{"start":9076.326,"end":9090.457,"text":"目前台中已經投入營運中的這個電動大客車有357輛對我說申請還在申請的話這個申請的部分目前就是由台中市政府按照那個車領要汰換的部分每年提出相對的數量"},{"start":9091.678,"end":9091.998,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9114.511,"end":9122.152,"text":"好,新的盧田委員接下來請陳雪生陳雪生陳雪生委員不在接下來請游浩委員發言請問"},{"start":9150.623,"end":9155.285,"text":"謝謝主席那請次長好我們請次長委員好次長好那本期在這裡還是也肯定交通部包括次長其實對許多國內的交通建設有許多的一個推動很盡心盡力那今天在520的賴總統的就職那我想要請教一些相關問題"},{"start":9180.257,"end":9195.456,"text":"但是先回歸到剛才羅廷惠委員所關心到的這有關於充電站的這個部分那其實在許多的社區啊還有許多的就是尤其在都會區甚至在南投縣有許多密集這種住宅的這種公寓大廈那至於說如何能夠協助輔導"},{"start":9196.317,"end":9196.357,"text":"主席"},{"start":9226.417,"end":9246.506,"text":"好 謝謝市長那接著就是因為像我剛才在上午一早從南投搭就是從台中大高鐵來的時候就在聽旁邊的就是一個民眾在講他原本以為說今天高鐵的車位都非常滿是想說是參加520就此才發現它居然不是那他們是要參加明天的一個抗爭活動"},{"start":9247.446,"end":9275.543,"text":"他們是明天想要來這個立法院周遭來進行這個抗爭那本期在想啊就是其實我們在這個國會改革的這個部分本期就不特別為難你就不問你意見因為我們看到過去民進黨的委員其實在2012年2014年像林佳龍前立委那他那時候也是支持的這個國會改革的內容就跟我們大家國民黨跟民眾黨所提的內容一樣一致但是看到民進黨的委員啊這個就是著是驚飛啊"},{"start":9276.724,"end":9292.524,"text":"還在口是心非啊這道運會來這個就是左是心非口是心非還這個就讓大家感覺起來就覺得時光錯字一樣就覺得很奇怪為什麼他們講的話到現在都不算數了還覺得到時候在顛倒是非啊"},{"start":9292.964,"end":9310.753,"text":"那結果到時候煽動著明天還在我們立院周遭要進行這個遊行抗爭來號召那本席想要就教一下部長對於這個明天在立院周遭在臺北市就有這個遊行想要針對這個國會改革的部分這個包括在新聞媒體您都有掌握到看到相關訊息嗎"},{"start":9314.853,"end":9331.592,"text":"呃明天明天要來的這個我我沒有掌握到沒有掌握到所以你知道明天大概會有多少人來包圍立法院嗎這個我不是很清楚那其實我還是要建議市長您要掌握清楚因為這個不是警政署的責任而已啊因為這個是整個包括台北市我們首都的一個"},{"start":9332.213,"end":9351.363,"text":"交通安全跟維護及疏導的部分那本席還是要建議交通部也要確實掌握甚至有相關的一個疏導方案我們來跟台北市警察局瞭解一下好 那要進行瞭解因為我剛才有稍微跟聯絡人講說我會問您這一題但是沒有關係就來進行瞭解很難掌握對 這很難掌握"},{"start":9351.883,"end":9374.795,"text":"但是這個交通的一個疏導配套這個還是請部長這個一定要清楚掌握因為其實在回到今天的這個自駕車那其實像特斯拉他們其實在一兩個人他們知道要停那他們看到幾個人他們知道要停那如果這個人多數字如果數據比較龐大的時候特斯拉這個自駕系統他不一定知道要停"},{"start":9375.535,"end":9401.047,"text":"所以說其實在我們臺北山路時都可能會遇到這種抗爭遊行的時候那這個自駕系統其實也跟今天的題目是相關尤其是交通疏導的部分好那我要接著再就是接著請教剛才曾政前委員也有問到補助補貼的這個大巴的部分那在南投縣那目前來講這個450.84億的補助南投縣的這個大客車申請的大概多少量"},{"start":9403.526,"end":9423.847,"text":"這邊我跟委員報告一下因為這個是補助這個市區公車泰萬城這個電動大客車的部分那就所了解的部分的話目前這個南投縣是還沒有這個電動市區公車的部分那一來因為本身南投縣大概都是依賴這個公路總局的一般公路客運路線在做一個服務"},{"start":9425.049,"end":9427.792,"text":"本集就直接針對在這個南投線包括配合客運業者的部分"},{"start":9440.808,"end":9464.513,"text":"那還是希望能夠積極的來協助只要行軍南投線的相關的車輛補助因為南投線確實的主要運輸還是在這個相關的巴士的部分那最後本席要在這裡來針對就是目前在考照駕照的部分有沒有針對這個自動駕駛的這個區塊還在考照駕照的時候有列到提供相關"},{"start":9466.235,"end":9466.375,"text":"主席"},{"start":9487.319,"end":9488.439,"text":"總共有121件交通事故,其中77件造車車輛是輔助駕駛系統。"},{"start":9507.805,"end":9507.945,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9530.594,"end":9546.321,"text":"為納入這個輔助駕駛系統相關的考題的一個知識的考的一種考題來未來希望能夠加速納入我相信這個對於有助於這個改善駕駛人在有這個駕駛車輛是輔助駕駛系統的時候能夠更為安全未來則請公路局把他納入考題裡面好 謝謝好 謝謝遊航委員接下來我們請魯明哲委員"},{"start":9569.079,"end":9570.48,"text":"主席陳次長陳次長今天主題包括自駕和電動大巴的問題"},{"start":9585.973,"end":9599.9,"text":"那我想說剛剛很多的委員都已經提到尤其我們自動駕駛跟其實輔助駕駛本身分成6個等級自駕分成6個等級那我想說請教一下因為你們從109年在整個做"},{"start":9602.541,"end":9611.663,"text":"我們自動小客車使用狀況的統計報告的時候所致納入有輔助駕駛系統的數字也做了統計所以我們看到109年我們的自動小客車當時統計有11.9%裡面有載有輔助駕駛系統不管它有沒有用到111年兩年之後也變成18%成長了將近6%現在是113年統計表出來沒有"},{"start":9630.342,"end":9630.482,"text":"統計處調查中"},{"start":9651.494,"end":9674.703,"text":"才有輔駕系統甚至宣稱自駕到幾級的會越來越多這是沒有辦法這我們要必須面對的問題對不對所以剛剛大家在問那我現在覺得政府應該多做一些事情怎麼說呢因為我們看看就台灣不是國外有人在高速公路駕駛在那邊睡覺也被抓到了睡著了"},{"start":9675.143,"end":9691.321,"text":"那還好搞不好他也沒發生事情那到底做什麼現在很多人在忙其他的事情因為他開啟了所謂他自己以為自動駕駛的輔助駕駛系統那這種情況之下到底什麼原因呢因為他們在買車的時候比如說以T牌來講"},{"start":9692.142,"end":9692.402,"text":"自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景"},{"start":9715.538,"end":9726.389,"text":"幫你在某很多情況之下避免發生碰撞也能夠自動緊急煞車那我覺得你們在這個方面的在廣告的方面有沒有做什麼樣的一個建議或者處理"},{"start":9728.296,"end":9745.762,"text":"跟委員報告一下你提的這兩個就是我們現在關注的一個這個重點第一個部分就是車主使用手車一定要這個展明這個是駕駛這個輔助系統不是自動駕駛系統第一個部分就是有關於業態在銷售的時候必須要這個訓練這個相關這個車輛銷售人員要給車主正確的一個"},{"start":9750.703,"end":9755.247,"text":"現在的情況是越來越多的品牌會進來越來越多的品牌會進來可能現在主要是這兩排越來越多的品牌大家在市場競爭下面什麼的要"},{"start":9776.488,"end":9777.288,"text":"一到五級一清二楚我是建議"},{"start":9806.115,"end":9826.497,"text":"如果你們有能力因為運輸安全調查委員會也在這裡嘛這車子進來的時候他就假設到一級、二級現在可能到進台灣的自駕標準到三級的都不見得有那這種你們在法規上面要不要做一個很簡單的揭露或者標示讓一般的民眾大家畢竟買車的"},{"start":9827.678,"end":9841.871,"text":"哪是專家啊我們也看不懂啊所以我覺得你們可不可以朝這個方向做一個考慮很簡單的揭露讓民眾這個部分能夠看到那細節請他去翻閱他自己的手冊這個可以往這個方向來做嗎"},{"start":9843.533,"end":9860.932,"text":"我們來研議我現在最擔心的是我們速度實在太慢了因為4月28號就上個月上個月南韓的監理機關南韓對於踢牌的因為"},{"start":9863.454,"end":9883.984,"text":"廣告不實啊他的廣告不實啊所以罰了220萬美金啊錢還沒有交不知道啦可是政府的態度已經出來了因為他虛假廣告所以他監管軍官罰了美金220萬這是第一個南韓上個月做的事那在德國呢前一陣子德國法院"},{"start":9885.017,"end":9906.007,"text":"已經判決要求他們修改自駕的用語所以我覺得政府當然你要等法院判決我覺得太不積極了尤其我們今年你統計出來你就知道我們輔助駕駛雖然我們不知道他到底用不用啦但我覺得我們政府的責任要做到我覺得速度要快人家都已經進入罰款了"},{"start":9907.868,"end":9928.781,"text":"進入一些裁決的全世界包括美國本地資產的他們集體的告訴有贏的在很多州他們也贏了我覺得能不能全世界我們每次都講我們要站在世界的前端我們現在其實站在後面也來不及了能不能拜託我們行政方面先做一些事情好不好"},{"start":9930.817,"end":9955.272,"text":"最後剛剛委員有說過剛剛是講全部的一個包括我們的一般公路跟高速公路我看高速公路因為車速都非常快所以單單把高速公路高速公路它載有輔助駕駛出車位的比例在112年我們總事故102次在高速公路上面然後它載有"},{"start":9956.172,"end":9956.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9980.794,"end":9981.735,"text":"明年5月希望"},{"start":9997.749,"end":10012.39,"text":"現在因為太多的一個自動駕駛甚至輔駕系統有撞到我們的高速公路緩撞車這種情況其實蠻多的所以你們要進入調查我覺得正面的肯定了那不過我是比較擔心在硬體方面"},{"start":10013.231,"end":10040.216,"text":"感知器到底是不是這個OK或者硬體迴路他到底情況如何我覺得在硬體方面我知道啦應該會有這樣的人才比較多因為這種東西已經其實蠻久的可是軟體方面你們AI的模型演算法你們要怎麼樣去看因為這個其實蠻恐怖的因為我覺得這個可能是車禍的最重要的關鍵你說譬如說在歐美他們的機車很少"},{"start":10041.176,"end":10058.184,"text":"他們的很奇怪的東西電車假設也很少在這種下面他們的AI模型他的演算法出來的在台灣我覺得既然運安會你出面你這種專業的考量人才我不知道人才有沒有點個頭來要的運安會所以你要委外一下"},{"start":10062.813,"end":10067.394,"text":"你現在軟體AI模型跟遠戰法你要對外招募人才是不是狀況怎麼樣你說一下"},{"start":10089.997,"end":10106.445,"text":"其他五個類似的電動車我們就一直在收集收集完之後我們會做分析那剛剛委員提示的這個AI軟體這個確實是一個方向我們朝這個方向來訓練我們不是你一定要有懂的人才甚至團隊我覺得是這樣有些那種非常專業的一個團隊"},{"start":10108.487,"end":10124.186,"text":"有些部分開毀壞你還是要毀壞講真的你內部假設找不到這些人才你在某個專業不是要整個丟給別人報告人家故事幫你寫出來當然不行嘛運安會你不能這樣你們因為是一個非常有公信力的單位但是有某些專業的一個領域我覺得"},{"start":10126.269,"end":10150.07,"text":"你們現在要找人才等到人才成熟可用三年五年之後大概因應不起所以我建議你在專業的領域如果你剛才已經說其實這個人才比較缺的部分我們是希望你能夠加快速度有些專業部分領域是不是委外要畢竟盡快能夠達到我們要的調查的一個甚至建議的一個目標這樣子可不可以朝這個方向"},{"start":10150.851,"end":10151.172,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10165.572,"end":10185.981,"text":"謝謝謝偉"},{"start":10188.527,"end":10216.776,"text":"好,謝謝盧秉哲委員那登記質詢的委員都發言完畢那做以下決定報告以及詢答完畢那委員陳素月、徐富奎、林俊憲、蔡其昌、邱若驊、林倩琦、林國成、何新淳、李坤澤、許智傑幾位委員所提的書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報那委員在質詢中要求提供的相關書面資料跟未及答覆的部分請交通部"},{"start":10217.516,"end":10222.64,"text":"運安會以及經濟部競速以書面來答覆本日議程處理完畢 散會"},{"start":10241.937,"end":10249.991,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10262.872,"end":10279.578,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10291.166,"end":10292.308,"text":"本集完"}]}},{"id":"152686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58377d0efa66525b92dccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e1851e85303a1be6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:10:01 - 11:20:21","影片長度":"00:10:20","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":620,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T11:20:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T11:10:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":524,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請陳次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["魯委員明哲：次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：今天其實滿多委員，因為今天的主題包括了自駕還有電動大巴的一些相關問題，剛剛很多的委員都已經提到，尤其自動駕駛跟輔助駕駛本身分成6個等級，自駕分成6個等級。","我想請教一下，你們從109年做自用小客車使用狀況統計報告的時候，首次納入了有輔助駕駛系統的數字，也做了統計，我們看到109年當時統計自用小客車有11.9%載有輔助駕駛系統，不管他有沒有用啦；到111年，2年之後變成18%，成長了將近6%；現在是113年，統計表出來了沒有？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目前我們統計處正在調查中。"],["魯委員明哲：那我預估成長速度會更快！因為隨著純電車的發展，我覺得這個速度會非常快，我預估從今天開始再5年，我自己預估35%到40%載有輔駕系統，甚至宣稱自駕到幾級的會越來越多，這沒有辦法，這是我們必須面對的問題，對不對？所以剛剛大家都在問。","我現在覺得政府應該多做一些事情啦，怎麼說呢？因為我們看到，就臺灣而不是國外，有人在高速公路駕駛時睡覺也被抓到，睡著了，搞不好他也沒發生事情，那到底在做什麼？現在很多人在忙其他的事情，因為他開啟了他自己以為是自動駕駛的輔助駕駛系統。這種情況到底是什麼原因？因為他們在買車的時候，譬如說以T牌來講，他說在你的主動監管下Autopilot，其實Autopilot就是自駕，然後它可以輔助你轉向、自動輔助加速跟自動輔助煞車嘛，我覺得自駕方面的宣傳讓很多使用者在買車的時候就已經覺得我大概可以去忙很多事情；那另外一個B牌，它的仲介也是講，可以幫你在很多情況之下避免發生碰撞，也能夠自動緊急煞車。你們在廣告的方面有沒有做什麼樣的建議或處理？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，你提的這兩個就是我們現在關注的重點，第一個部分，車主使用手冊一定要載明這個是駕駛輔助系統，不是自動駕駛系統；第二個部分，有關於業代在銷售的時候，必須訓練相關車輛銷售人員要給車主正確的觀念；第三個部分，我們也有注意、關注相關車商的廣告，只要有寫到像自動駕駛等等部分，我們立刻會找車廠來做瞭解。"],["魯委員明哲：現在的情況是，未來會有越來越多的品牌會進來、越來越多的品牌會進來！現在主要是這兩牌，越來越多的品牌在市場競爭下面，什麼藥效都會宣稱，賣藥的就是這樣，所以請你們要注意。","第二個，我也發覺，你們針對1到6級的自駕輔助到底能力到哪裡，我覺得你在車上要有清楚的標示，不要讓民眾翻了厚厚一本，你看，在第802頁裡面第5行，那沒有道理嘛！我們看到冰箱的省電效果1到5級一清二楚，我是建議喔，如果你們有能力，因為運安會也在這裡嘛，車子進來的時候，它就假設到1級、2級，現在進臺灣的要到自駕標準3級的可能都不見得有，這種你們在法規上面要不要做一個很簡單的揭露或者標示，讓一般的民眾……畢竟大家買車的哪是專家啊，我們也看不懂啊！所以我覺得你們可不可以朝這個方向考慮？很簡單地揭露讓民眾能夠看到，細節請他去翻閱他自己的手冊，這部分可以往這個方向來做嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們來研議。"],["魯委員明哲：研議？"],["陳次長彥伯：是！"],["魯委員明哲：我現在最擔心的事，我們速度實在太慢了，因為4月28號，就上個月嘛，上個月南韓的監理機關對於T牌因為廣告不實罰了220萬美金，錢它有沒有交？不知道啦！可是政府的態度已經出來了，因為它虛假廣告，所以監管機關罰了美金220萬，這是第一個，南韓上個月做的事；那在德國呢？前一陣子德國法院已經判決要求它們修改自駕的用語。所以我覺得政府，當然你要等法院判決，我覺得太不積極了，尤其今年你統計出來就知道有關輔助駕駛，我們不知道他到底用不用啦，但我覺得我們政府的責任要做到，我覺得速度要快，人家都已經進入罰款、裁決了，全世界包括美國本地自產的，他們集體告訴有贏的，在很多州他們也贏了！我們每次都講我們要站在世界的前端，我們現在其實站在後面也來不及了，能不能拜託我們行政方面先做一些事情，好不好？","最後，剛剛委員也說過了，剛剛是講一般的公路跟高速公路，高速公路因為車速都非常快，所以我單單針對高速公路的部分，有關它載有輔助駕駛出車禍的比率，112年總事故102次在高速公路上面，然後載有輔助駕駛、輔駕系統的比率已經高達65%了，但這個65%其實滿可怕的，對比它總共的數量，一般的車剛剛已經比過了，第一個，只有20%是載有輔駕系統的、80%沒有，所以針對這個比例，我認為真的值得非常重視！","當然我們也看到運安會，沒關係，因為時間不夠，我就講一講。我建議你，因為很多事情他們去做一個行政的協助，但畢竟有些專業、各種招數都進來了，剛剛孟楷委員也問過了，明年5月希望……現在因為太多自動駕駛甚至輔駕系統撞到高速公路緩撞車，這種情況其實滿多的，所以你們要進入調查，我給予正面的肯定。不過我是比較擔心硬體方面，感知器到底是不是OK？或者硬體迴路到底情況如何？我覺得在硬體方面，我知道運安會有比較多這方面的人才，因為這種東西其實已經滿久的。","可是在軟體方面，你們針對AI的模型演算法要怎麼去看？這個其實滿恐怖的，因為這個可能是車禍最重要的關鍵！譬如說在歐美，他們的機車很少，他們很奇怪的東西、電車假設也很少，在這種情況下，他們出來的AI模型、演算法，在臺灣我覺得既然運安會出面，你這種專業的考量，人才我不知道，人才有沒有？點頭或搖頭，運安會，所以你要委外，是不是？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有，正在累積。"],["魯委員明哲：來，你上來，留下紀錄，你不要嚇我，我想說你有人才，給你交代一下。","講真的啦，軟體確實很難，因為各家的又不太一樣，有的武當、有的少林，還有歐美的，甚至未來亞洲都會出來。現在你針對軟體AI，像是模型跟演算法等，要對外招募人才，是不是？狀況怎麼樣？你說一下。"],["林主任委員信得：我們現在有第一個案子是去年11月30日大雅路段的那個，我們有立案調查，然後有其他5個類似的電動車我們就一直在蒐集，蒐集完之後我們會做分析。剛剛委員提示的AI軟體確實是一個方向，我們朝這個方向來訓練我們的……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，你一定要有懂的人才甚至團隊啦，我覺得是這樣啦，有些那種非常專業的團隊，你有些部分該委外還是要委外，講真的！你內部假設找不到這些人才，不是要你整個丟給別人啦，報告由顧問公司幫你寫出來，當然不行嘛！運安會不能這樣，因為你們是一個非常有公信力的單位。但是在某些專業的領域，我覺得你們現在要找人才，等到人才成熟可用，3年、5年之後大概因應不及，所以我建議你在專業的領域，如果你剛剛已經說其實這部分的人才比較缺，我們希望你能夠加快速度，有些專業部分領域是不是委外？畢竟要能夠儘快達到我們要的調查，甚至建議的目標！可不可以朝這個方向？"],["林主任委員信得：我們目前是朝這個方向，譬如說我們在今年的8月下旬，美國加州的PATH中心派人來參加國際論壇，我們中間有一個論壇就是跟AI有關係，確實是同一個方向，謝謝委員指教。"],["魯委員明哲：好，請大家加油！下次來……有離開的嗎？都還在嗎？520今天來的就表示都還在。恭喜次長，林主委還繼續嘛！好，那就可以繼續問你們這些問題了，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","登記質詢的委員都發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員陳素月、徐富癸、林俊憲、蔡其昌、邱若華、林倩綺、林國成、何欣純、李昆澤、許智傑幾位委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答復部分，請交通部、運安會以及經濟部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請陳次長好 我們請陳次長次長 因為今天其實蠻多委員因為今天的主題包括了我們自駕還有電動大巴的一些相關的一些問題"},{"start":19.417,"end":46.756,"text":"那我想說剛剛很多的委員都已經提到尤其我們自動駕駛跟其實輔助駕駛本身分成六個等級自駕分成六個等級那我想說請教一下因為你們從109年在整個做我們自用小客車使用狀況一個統計一個報告的時候所致納入了有輔助駕駛系統的數字也做了統計所以我們看到109年我們的自用小客車當時統計"},{"start":48.237,"end":56.523,"text":"有11.9%裡面有載有輔助駕駛系統不管他有沒有用啦那到111年兩年之後變成18%成長了將近6%那現在是113年啦統計表出來沒有"},{"start":63.809,"end":65.35,"text":"目前統計處正在調查中"},{"start":85.201,"end":108.17,"text":"載有輔駕系統甚至宣稱自駕到幾級的會越來越多這是沒有辦法 這我們要必須面對的問題對不對所以剛剛大家在問那我現在覺得政府應該多做一些事情怎麼說呢因為我們看看就台灣不是國外有人在高速公路駕駛在那邊睡覺也被抓到了睡著了"},{"start":109.371,"end":109.551,"text":"主席"},{"start":125.603,"end":125.863,"text":"自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景．"},{"start":148.982,"end":177.632,"text":"幫你在某很多情況之下避免發生碰撞也能夠自動緊急剎車那我覺得你們在這個方面的在廣告的方面有沒有做什麼樣的一個建議或者處理各位委員報告一下你提的這兩個就是我們現在關注的一個重點第一個部分就是車主使用手冊一定要這個展明這個是駕駛這個輔助系統不是自動駕駛系統第一個部分就是有關於業態在銷售的時候"},{"start":178.092,"end":179.213,"text":"現在的情況是越來越多品牌會進來"},{"start":202.951,"end":208.625,"text":"現在主要是這兩排越來越多的品牌大家在市場競爭下面什麼的要"},{"start":209.952,"end":210.732,"text":"一到五級一清二楚我是建議"},{"start":239.58,"end":259.958,"text":"如果你們有能力因為議員會也在這裡嘛這車子進來的時候他就假設到一級、二級現在可能到台灣的自駕標準到三級的都不見得有那這種你們在法規上面要不要做一個很簡單的揭露或者標示讓一般的民眾大家畢竟買車的"},{"start":261.139,"end":275.338,"text":"哪是專家啊我們也看不懂啊所以我覺得你們可不可以朝這個方向做一個考慮很簡單的揭露讓民眾這個不會能夠看到那細節請他去翻閱他自己的手冊這個可以往這個方向來做嗎"},{"start":276.997,"end":292.754,"text":"我們來研議我現在最擔心的是我們速度實在太慢了因為4月28號就上個月嘛上個月南韓的監理機關南韓對T牌的因為"},{"start":296.918,"end":317.458,"text":"廣告不實啊他的廣告不實啊所以罰了220萬美金啊錢還沒有交不知道啦可是政府的態度已經出來了因為他虛假廣告所以他監管軍官罰了美金220萬這是第一個南韓上個月做的事那在德國呢前一陣子德國法院"},{"start":318.479,"end":318.559,"text":"主席"},{"start":341.332,"end":362.148,"text":"進入一些裁決的全世界包括美國本地資產的他們集體的告訴有贏的在很多州他們也贏了我覺得能不能全世界我們每次都講我們要站在世界的前端我們現在其實站在後面也來不及了能不能拜託我們行政方面先做一些事情好不好"},{"start":364.104,"end":388.72,"text":"那最後啊 剛剛委員有說過啦那剛剛是講全部的一個包括我們的一般的公路跟高速公路那我看高速公路因為車速都非常快所以我單單把高速公路高速公路它載有輔助駕駛那出車位的比例在112年我們總事故102次在高速公路上面然後呢 它載有"},{"start":389.64,"end":411.496,"text":"副駕駛系統的比例已經高達百分之六十五了但是這個六十五其實還滿可怕的你對比它總共的數量一般的車剛剛已經比過了第一個嘛只有百分之二十是載有輔駕系統的百分之八十沒有所以在這個比例我認為是真的值得非常重視那當然我們也看到這個"},{"start":414.258,"end":442.341,"text":"我們運安會運安會 時間不夠我就講一講我是建議你因為很多事情他們去做一個行政的協助但畢竟有些專業各種招數都進來了你現在剛剛那個孟楷委員有問過明年5月希望現在因為太多的一個自動駕駛甚至輔駕系統有撞到我們的高速公路緩撞車這種情況其實蠻多的所以你們要進入調查我覺得正面的肯定了"},{"start":443.081,"end":469.957,"text":"那不過我是比較擔心在硬體方面感知器到底是不是這個OK或者硬體迴路他到底情況如何我覺得在硬體方面我知道啦應該會有這樣的人才比較多因為這種東西已經其實蠻久的可是軟體方面你們AI的模型演算法你們要怎麼樣去看因為這個其實蠻恐怖的因為我覺得這個可能是車禍的最重要的關鍵"},{"start":471.218,"end":488.945,"text":"你說譬如說他在歐美他們的機車很少他們的很奇怪的東西電車假設也很少在這種下面他們的AI模型他的演算法出來的在台灣我覺得既然運安會你出面你這種專業的考量人才我不知道人才有沒有 點個頭來 運安會所以你要委外一下"},{"start":495.976,"end":500.857,"text":"你現在軟體AI模型跟遠戰法你要對外招募人才是不是 狀況怎麼樣 你說一下"},{"start":523.464,"end":539.915,"text":"其他五個類似的電動車我們就一直在收集收集完之後我們會做分析那剛剛委員提示的這個AI軟體這個確實是一個方向我們朝這個方向來訓練我們不是你一定要有懂的人才甚至團隊我覺得是這樣有些那種非常專業的一個團隊"},{"start":541.936,"end":557.631,"text":"有些部分開尾外你還是要尾外啊講真的你內部角色找不到這些人才你在某個專業不是這樣整個丟給別人啦報告人家故事幫你寫出來當然不行嘛運安會你不能這樣你們因為是一個非常有公信力的單位但是有某些專業的一個領域我覺得"},{"start":559.733,"end":583.835,"text":"你們現在要找人才等到人才成熟可用三年五年之後大概因應不起所以我建議你在專業的領域如果你剛剛已經說其實這個人才比較缺的部分我們是希望你能夠加快速度有些專業部分領域是不是委外要畢竟盡快能夠達到我們要的調查的一個甚至建議的一個目標這樣子可不可以朝這個方向"},{"start":584.295,"end":598.11,"text":"我們目前是朝這個方向,譬如說我們在今年的8月下旬,我們跟美國加州的PACE中心他們派人來參加國際論壇,我們中間的一個論壇就是跟AI有關係,確實是從另一個方向,謝謝委員指教"},{"start":599.036,"end":619.804,"text":"謝謝謝偉"}]}},{"id":"152685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5834889502bf08a2951ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e159d8f2b9dd4f3d665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:02:40 - 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謝謝市長那接著就是因為像我剛才在上午一早從南投搭就是從台中搭高鐵來的時候就在聽旁邊的就是一個民眾在講阿原本以為說今天高鐵的車位都非常滿是想說是參加520就職才發現它居然不是那他們是要參加明天的一個抗爭活動阿"},{"start":121.354,"end":149.447,"text":"他們是明天想要來這個立法院周遭來進行這個抗爭那本期在想啊就是其實我們在這個國會改革的這個部分本期就不特別為難你就不問你意見因為我們看到過去民進黨的委員其實在2012年2014年像林佳龍前立委那他那時候也是支持的這個國會改革的內容就跟我們大家國民黨跟民眾黨所提的內容一樣一致但是看到民進黨的委員啊這個就是著是驚飛啊"},{"start":150.628,"end":166.429,"text":"還在口是心非啊這到院會來這個就是左是心非口是心非還這個就讓大家感覺起來就覺得時光錯字一樣就覺得很奇怪為什麼他們講的話到現在都不算數了還覺得到時候在顛倒是非啊"},{"start":166.869,"end":184.662,"text":"那結果到時候煽動著明天還在我們立院周遭要進行這個遊行抗爭來號召那本席想要就教一下部長對於這個明天在立院周遭在臺北市就有這個遊行想要針對這個國會改革的部分這個包括在新聞媒體您都有掌握到看到相關訊息嗎"},{"start":189.34,"end":211.273,"text":"明天要來的這個我沒有掌握到所以你知道明天大概會有多少人來包圍立法院嗎這個我不是很清楚那其實我還是要建議市長您要掌握清楚因為這個不是警政署的責任而已啊因為這個是整個包括台北市我們首都的一個交通安全跟維護以及疏導的部分那本市還是要建議交通部也要確實掌握"},{"start":211.773,"end":239.182,"text":"甚至有相關的一個疏導方案我們來跟臺北市警察局了解一下好 那要進行了解因為我剛才有稍微跟聯絡人講說我會問您這一題但是沒有關係就來進行了解很難掌握對 這很難掌握但是這個消通的一個疏導配套這個還是請部長這個一定要清楚掌握對啊 因為其實在回到今天的這個自駕車啊那其實像特斯拉他們其實在一兩個人他們知道要停啊"},{"start":239.702,"end":260.549,"text":"那他們看到幾個人他們知道要停啊那如果這個人多數字如果數據比較龐大的時候特斯拉的這個自駕系統他不一定知道要停啊所以說其實在我們臺北3050都可能會遇到這種抗爭遊行的時候那這個自駕系統其實也跟今天的題目相關尤其是交通疏導的部分好那我要接著再"},{"start":261.309,"end":274.878,"text":"就是接著請教剛才曾政前委員也有問到補助補貼的這個大巴的部分那在南投縣那目前來講這個450.84億的補助南投縣的這個大客車申請的大概多少輛"},{"start":277.434,"end":297.719,"text":"這邊我跟委員報告一下因為這個是補助這個市區公車泰萬城這個電動大客車的部分那就所了解的部分目前這個南投縣是還沒有這個電動市區公車的部分那一來因為本身南投縣大概都是依賴這個公路總局的一般公路客運路線在做一個服務"},{"start":298.96,"end":301.723,"text":"本集就直接針對在這個南投線包括配合客運業者的部分"},{"start":314.716,"end":338.434,"text":"那還是希望能夠積極的來協助只要行軍南投線的相關的車輛補助因為南投線確實的主要運輸還是在這個相關的巴士的部分那最後本席要在這裡來針對就是目前在考照駕照的部分有沒有針對這個自動駕駛的這個區塊還在考照駕照的時候有列到提供相關"},{"start":340.123,"end":340.584,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":360.947,"end":362.427,"text":"輔助駕駛系統在112年高速公路總共有121件交通事故,其中77件造車車輛是輔助駕駛系統"},{"start":381.713,"end":386.175,"text":"在111年101件其中47件也是輔助駕駛系統在46.5%所以在111年到112年是從46.5%到63.6%是屬於這個輔助駕駛系統的這種車輛"},{"start":400.8,"end":420.208,"text":"所以本席還是要建議目前來講在考照的部分未納入這個輔助駕駛系統相關的考題的一個知識的考的用考題來未來希望能夠加速納入我相信這個對於有助於這個改善駕駛人在有這個駕駛車輛是輔助駕駛系統的時候能夠更為安全未來則請公路局把他納入考題裡面好 謝謝好 謝謝游航委員"}]}},{"id":"152684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d58398842f07e3238669ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e1b850eed1fd1b92d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:55:08 - 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謝主席 請幫我有請政次以及公共運輸林市長好 請次長跟市長"},{"start":12.09,"end":34.344,"text":"羅委員好市長你好市長今天我們主要的這個題目其實非常好這個電動車不管是大型的電巴以及我們現在所說的社區的充電樁因為都會影響到我想一併討論那雖然我是外委員會是教育文化但今天我對這個議題也非常的關注"},{"start":35.245,"end":46.948,"text":"那我想先跟您請教一下您對這個我國電動大客車推動的一個狀況您目前知道剛剛執行區這麼多我們都在台底下聽喔你大概知道整個問題點困境在哪裡嗎"},{"start":49.406,"end":70.59,"text":"我想整個來講應該還是相關的這個車輛的多元性可能要趕快讓客運業者有選擇因為他跟他們以前在買電大客車的這個營運的環境是不太一樣的所以我想我們如何來創造車輛的多元是可能是未來的一個目標"},{"start":71.17,"end":99.19,"text":"至於說車輛的本身因為我們有經過國產化或者是車輛安全法規它的性能上因為我們是有相當的一個把握我相信你們對這個一定有把握但是我覺得多元性讓他們能夠選擇還是必要的但是我想提到幾個點包括第一個我們在這個做公車您覺得就是所謂的通勤組通勤組最大宗的使用者大概是哪一類你知道嗎"},{"start":101.806,"end":103.467,"text":"實用者變少,客運在每一分錢的成本營運就會非常計較"},{"start":123.78,"end":138.601,"text":"那所以成本營運對他們來說不管是購入剛剛其實我們主席黃建華委員有提出購入這個電吧的成本支柱必降因為他們在每一分每一塊錢他們都必須算得很清楚才可以了解到底會不會賺錢"},{"start":139.662,"end":163.576,"text":"那再來缺工問題剛剛我有聽到有的人對於這個司機我們現在所說的希望能夠提高司機的相關權利以及他們的薪資你們有回答正在努力當中有去做一些培訓但我想培訓的數字並不是很滿意對吧您可以接受這個數字嗎我們還要再繼續努力到目前為止已經有1660幾位你的目標呢"},{"start":167.419,"end":171.182,"text":"應該我的了解是1800人嗎?還是?您覺得不管是1600到1800,您覺得補上這1800全國缺工的問題就可以解除嗎?"},{"start":181.854,"end":196.548,"text":"整體性上還要來努力啦所以為什麼不管是一千六或是一千八的人員原額補上我們就可以解決我想是不行的那到底為什麼只能到一千八我們是不是應該討論一下這個方案是不是有問題"},{"start":197.549,"end":213.366,"text":"那當然有其他的委員提出是不是有機會外國的司機來幫忙去做這樣子的一個工作提供當然這是有可能地方會有爭議大家可能會需要討論但是我覺得現在"},{"start":213.886,"end":230.997,"text":"我們最第一線的民意代表就是接到民眾對於所謂的司機不足大量的減班然後現在我們說已經大量的減班了我們又還要再來推所謂的電動巴士全面汰換我覺得這部分是會有一些牽連"},{"start":232.037,"end":259.799,"text":"當然當然現在近臨我們都希望能夠零碳排這個是我們的目標當然還有所謂的充電樁設置的一個問題充電樁設置你跟我講我記得剛剛有提到一個數字好像70幾個已經正在完成還有5站正在設置當中但是我個人還是覺得這個部分都是讓所有的目前電巴的業者很擔憂的一個問題就我也有收到一些"},{"start":261.941,"end":281.156,"text":"客運的業者跟我們講電池阿他們預估可以使用8年現在呢用到3年就即將要汰換這些都是他們的營運成本我覺得這都很擔憂再來我想問您有掌握到我們現在社區充電樁目前的困境嗎電動車充電樁不是電吧喔是電動車社區充電樁"},{"start":288.496,"end":308.01,"text":"跟委員報告目前整個這個充電裝的一個這個部設的部分大概經過部裡面這一兩年的一個部分的話在公共停車場還有私人停車場的部分其實數量是有相當那剛剛我們提到說社區的部分其實就是最後最後一裡這個社區這個自由停車場這個充電的一個這個課題"},{"start":310.872,"end":331.838,"text":"我們哪時候會提出專法配套這個部分的話就是了解內政部這一個國土署已有提出那個公寓大廈那個條例的修正草案目前好像是在這一個行政院當中你們有跨部會討論過嗎這個部分有參考你的意見嗎我們會後面會配合這個行政院的一個審查我們會參與"},{"start":333.078,"end":357.173,"text":"我想要推電動車利益良善我們都支持但我自己長期在跑地方我們都會去社區區選會每一次討論到所謂的社區要裝設充電裝都會有很大的問題要先經過管委會這一站政府又沒有去專法配套再來台電在設置上有一些些要排隊還有困境要排成很久然後再來呢又還有所謂的契約用電的問題"},{"start":358.294,"end":387.424,"text":"公電的量的一個問題我想這些小型的充電樁都會反映出我們連這個社區型都沒辦法處理還想要處理大型電巴的問題這個都是整體聯動的我希望這部分我們提出的問題今天時間有限沒辦法把整個東西完善的去講出來但我想台中有所謂的四方電巴現在有所謂的退出我想你們都有掌握那到底為什麼其實大家都知道裡面的內容你應該去研究一下"},{"start":388.004,"end":415.816,"text":"最後這裡面有提到有1900多輛1944輛所謂的電動大客車的補助對吧目前台中的補助是多少有掌握嗎目前台中已經投入營運中的這個電動大客車有357輛對對對我說申請還在申請的話這個申請的部分目前就是由台中市政府按照那個車領要汰換的部分每年提出相對的數量"},{"start":417.717,"end":417.897,"text":"羅廷瑋委員"}]}},{"id":"152683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5833ba5822f5fccbea4ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e1c7dd2f281fdf83155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:36:08 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10:44:37","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":509,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T10:44:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T10:36:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時36分）謝謝主席。本席請陳政次還有經濟部的連署長。"],["主席：有請次長、署長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。本席想要請教次長跟署長，從108年到現到，我們的無人自駕車相關經費，交通部跟經濟部分別投入多少？交通部。"],["陳次長彥伯：我手頭上沒有這些資料，可能要會後再提供給委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以都不知道？這麼多年來，有關無人自駕，因為今天請你們來報告，我們就很想看，在交通部的報告裡有講到有補助，然後有支援沙盒計畫，但是都沒有講到……"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，在自駕的部分，尤其是沙盒實驗裡面，我們大概是補助路側的設施或車輛的OBU等等。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那經費大概是多少？"],["陳次長彥伯：在ITS計畫裡面嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，ITS計畫，所以經費不敢講？那我們請經濟部。"],["連署長錦漳：1年差不多有1.5億在做研發部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說這麼多年來，你大概補助了多少？109年到113年，經濟部，十幾億啊，本席手上的資料。"],["連署長錦漳：沒有、沒有、沒有，我們1年有1.6億經費，是廠商有來申請才有，我們現在補助了6個案子，應該差不多在2億左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我請教現在無人自駕在世界各國投入比我們更多的預算，有成功嗎？目前都還沒有嘛？都沒有成功，而且本席手上的資料，我就看到美國的Cruise無人計程車全國暫停營運，因為發生太多的事故、太多的問題。","剛好本席有到對岸，有看到他們小米汽車無人自駕區的整個實驗區，我發現這個如果真的要做，政府要很有決心，而且要投入全力來支持，包括我們交通部一直在進行的法規方面，還有整個測試需要的花費很大，本席的立場是覺得我們臺灣已經落後，就是比人家起步慢而且落後，還有我們真心想投入的決心也不夠。所以我感覺我們投入的錢都像剛剛黃國昌委員說的，「打水漂」，不然我覺得你們就是做公關而已，因為你真的要做，你就要有決心，就是要做成，你要投入的資源絕對不是像你現在這樣，你現在投入不多不少，但實際上那個錢對我們來說，我覺得已經很多，可是你根本很難有成功的機會。這部分我看到過去第9屆、第10屆也很多委員有提到說不希望投入太多，所以你們的決策一定要明確，今天你根本不太可能……你做得不上不下，等於沒有做，但是你浪費了多少公帑，這個是本席今天質詢的重點。","再來，因為我時間有限，請署長回座，接下來我想請教次長。次長，大海嘯或者是很強力的水柱對人是會有傷害的，但是一滴、兩滴的水對人來說，大家都不擔心，因為才一滴、兩滴，但卻有滴水穿石這種事情，我要強調的是什麼？我要強調滴水是很小的力量，可是它持續性，所以它可以穿石，因此本席要針對交通部隔音牆的部分，現在很多地區需要隔音牆，你們設定80分貝，本席要強調的是，沒錯，如果是幾秒鐘甚至1分鐘、2分鐘，80分貝以上對人會產生很大的問題，但是長期呢？對於很多的住戶，他長期睡眠的時間，所以本席要強調為什麼我舉滴水穿石，就算它的力道沒有到達你的分貝數，但是它continuous長期持續不斷，它就是一個傷害力。","我再舉一個例子，我們肩上揹10公斤、8公斤，對我們來說沒什麼，對不對？但是如果要我揹100公斤，我大概就骨折了，可是我10公斤持續揹一年都沒有停的話，我身體就變形了，所以人長期暴露在這種噪音之下，雖然它只有70分貝、七十幾分貝，你們要80分貝才能做隔音牆，其實對民眾造成非常大的問題。","所以今天本席在這裡質詢是要請交通部就這個部分你們要改變，而且要重視，再加上我相信大家知道現在社會變遷，這種憂鬱症各方面，還有大家對聲音的忍受度都變弱了，今天因為時間短，本席在這邊簡單的講，但是我們希望交通部針對隔音牆，你要幾分貝，還有你要看地區的狀況，我們要做改善，要來改善民眾這種長期因為交通的聲音而影響睡眠、影響生活品質的問題，這部分可不可以請部長未來我們來研擬、我們來改善？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員提到這個，我們來跟環保署討論一下，因為這種相關的噪音檢測等等標準是由環保署訂定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是隔音牆是你們補助的……"],["陳次長彥伯：是，沒有錯，隔音牆為什麼需要有一定的標準在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然啊！我剛剛就是一直強調你那個標準，你說是環保……"],["陳次長彥伯：對，環境部的，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你補助要依據那個標準嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以那個標準要降，你補助的……"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我才會提到說我們來跟環保署討論一下那個標準該如何來檢討，是不是針對不同的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，因為經費是你們的，所以由你們來主導去談……"],["陳次長彥伯：可以，沒有問題，我們來跟它聯繫一下看怎麼樣，就是不是有區域的問題，是不是有哪邊要有特殊的考量，我們再來跟環保署討論一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席最後一個議題，我們整個台61線西濱快速道路，新竹鳳鼻到香山段只剩10公里一直還沒有高架，我們交通部有沒有規劃？應該要儘快補足10公里這一段，他們那邊假日跟平時都塞車塞得很厲害，我相信你們也有掌握這個情況。"],["陳局長文瑞：有，所以有相關的……包括鳳鼻到香山這一個，我們的綜合規劃現在其實也正在處理，還有沿線，新竹、苗栗有一些平交路口的，我們現在也有相關的建設計畫要推動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以會積極來推動嘛？"],["陳局長文瑞：會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時44分）","繼續開會（10時54分）"],["主席（黃委員健豪代）：現在繼續開會。","請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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這個大海 或者是很強力的水柱對人是會有傷害的但是一滴兩滴的水對人來說 大家都不擔心一滴兩滴 但是卻有滴水穿石"},{"start":268.815,"end":284.989,"text":"好,這種事情那我要強調的是什麼我要強調的是你這個滴水它很小的力量可是它持續性它可以穿石所以本席要針對我們交通部隔音牆的部分"},{"start":285.789,"end":290.23,"text":"現在很多地區需要隔音牆,你們設定80分貝,那本席就要強調的是,沒錯,如果是幾秒鐘,或者是甚至一分鐘兩分鐘,你80分貝以上,對人產生很大的問題。"},{"start":304.614,"end":330.625,"text":"但是長期對於很多的住戶長期他睡眠的時間所以本席要強調的為什麼我舉低水穿石就算他力道很沒有到達你的分貝數但是他continuous他長期持續不斷他就是一個傷害力我再舉一個例子我們肩上我們肩上背10公斤8公斤對我們來說沒什麼"},{"start":331.886,"end":343.3,"text":"對不對但是如果要我背100公斤我大概我就骨折了可是我10公斤的我持續背一年都沒有停的話我身體就變形了"},{"start":344.235,"end":367.478,"text":"所以我們人暴露在這種長期噪音之下雖然它只有70分貝70幾分貝你們要80分貝才能做隔音牆那其實對民眾造成非常大的問題所以今天本席在這裡諮詢是要請交通部這個部分你們要改變而且要重視再加上我相信大家知道現在社會變遷"},{"start":370,"end":390.335,"text":"這種憂鬱症各方面還有大家對聲音的這種忍受度都變弱了對聲音的忍受度都變弱了所以今天因為時間短本席在這邊簡單的講但是我們希望交通部針對隔音牆你要幾分貝還有你要看地區狀況的情況"},{"start":392.236,"end":410.054,"text":"我們要做改善那要來改善我們民眾這種長期被因為交通的這個聲音影響睡眠影響生活品質的問題這部分可不可以請部長可不可以未來我們來研擬我們來改善"},{"start":411.749,"end":419.573,"text":"提到這個我們來跟環保署來討論一下因為相關的這種噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢噢"},{"start":440.225,"end":442.187,"text":"本席最後一個議題就是說我們整個台61線西濱快速道路"},{"start":468.612,"end":468.892,"text":"有有有"},{"start":485.422,"end":485.522,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"152682","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152682","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5836387c88ca2710c23ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e132efae0385dc65035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:30:45 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transportation去參加自駕車的系統臺灣廠商打入美國自駕車臺灣之光啊這個事情要大書特書啊但我後來直接跟美國聯絡人家說根本沒他的事啊他沒有參與啊Jacksonville Transportationportation Authority給我的答案是說跟這家廠商沒有關係啊我那時候想說天啊我們臺灣政府怎麼這麼好騙啊"},{"start":111.704,"end":133.191,"text":"一個莫名其妙的廠商編了一個莫名其妙的理由我們的經濟部還發給他優良廠商發給他優良廠商就算了啊那只是虛名啊但拿到優良廠商以後來看一下除了騙台鐵行控4.0做了一個莫名其妙的沒有用的東西出來搞了幾千萬來 市長"},{"start":135.712,"end":162.734,"text":"跟運安會主委一起看一下齁臺南自駕車系統臺南市政府給2360萬經濟部補助5200萬狀態中止補助拿完了然後呢來有人知道現在發生什麼事嗎有人知道發生什麼事嗎拿了快要7500多萬有人知道現在發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":164.707,"end":190.765,"text":"市長知道嗎我不是很瞭解但是我瞭解他是應該是經濟部的沙盒的計畫裡面主委知道嗎你也不知道我們政府很有錢錢丟下去東一聲幾千萬沒有感覺臺中自駕車系統臺中市政府給一千五經濟部給五千四百萬也很有錢啊"},{"start":193.454,"end":205.52,"text":"結果呢 什麼都沒有啊來我具體請教一下市長啊你們目前的評估按照你們的規劃台灣的自駕車系統還要多久才會成熟"},{"start":207.21,"end":232.602,"text":"我跟委員報告自駕車他其實剛才有特別提到他先會要在先沙盒裡面要去做試驗我了解前面講過都不要複述了需要多久接下來的話他其實還有一些我也了解需要多久請針對問題回答這目前我想無法評估要多久有賴這個整個車商大家共同五年有可能嗎十年有可能嗎"},{"start":233.646,"end":256.901,"text":"都要努力啦都要努力嘛所以連10年都未必嘛好你們要接下來要發展自駕車啊老實說推動科技的發展讓人類的生活更好我基本上是支持的但我要拜託一下次長挑選廠商的時候啊找真正優良有時機的不要找這種政商關係良好的詐騙廠商啊"},{"start":258.7,"end":276.961,"text":"李立系統在民進黨系統裡跟誰好?你們不知道嗎?不知道坐得到交通部這個位置嗎?市長李立的老闆認不認識?知不知道是民進黨哪個派系的?知不知道?不是了解"},{"start":277.403,"end":302.472,"text":"不如這了解沒關係新的部長來我再問新的部長看他到底是了解還是不了解時間的關係我不要妨礙接下來委員質詢的時間雖然今天質詢的時間好像比較多但我還是要尊重其他的委員我只有一個原則要發展這件事我都支持要找找有能力的廠商不是找這種政商關係良好的詐騙廠商可以嗎"},{"start":304.064,"end":310.028,"text":"當然要朝這個方向來處理不是要朝這個方向是一定要這樣做可以嗎一定要這樣做好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583caf4b92e648a8321ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e15f40f2ff3a0ba36f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:24:37 - 10:30:30","影片長度":"00:05:53","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":353,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T10:30:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T10:24:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時24分）謝謝主席，我想請陳彥伯次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長好，行政院曾經提出2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫，剛剛你有回應了，就是目標是在2030年之前要推動1萬1,700輛電動巴士，這個數字沒有錯嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，沒有錯。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。同時也提到在2030年的時候市區公車要全面電動化，這也沒有錯，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們預計在2030年的時候市區巴士全面電動化，我想請問一下，是不是表示在2030年之後，所有的市區公車基本上都是電動化的？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有錯喔。這1萬1,700輛包不包含旅遊業者的巴士？"],["陳次長彥伯：不包含。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不包含，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，不包含。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為這邊有同時提到了，就是在這個計畫裡面，7年總共就是450.84億補助購買車輛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外就是整個營運補助192.43億，我想請教一下，到目前為止，現在補助出去的車輛總共有多少？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們現在補助出去的車輛到目前有1,944輛。"],["鄭委員正鈐：1,944輛裡面有多少是補助到新竹市這邊來的？"],["陳次長彥伯：目前籌備中的有10輛。"],["鄭委員正鈐：只有籌備中，對不對？就表示新竹市……"],["陳次長彥伯：就是已經核定的，他正在打造中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，所以我要講的狀態就是新竹市的補助量其實顯然是少的，我們很需要，新竹市是一個科技城，我們很需要有更多的補助在這個地方，我們希望接下來新竹市這邊有提出來的所有補助計畫，交通部這邊能夠多多給予支持。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們交通部的態度就是全力支持，希望業者能夠提出，因為我們相關經費還是充足的，然後要全面推動的這個期程是既定的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，對於非市區公車、一般旅遊巴士的部分，有沒有自動化的推動計畫？"],["林司長福山：這部分我跟委員報告一下，遊覽車的部分，因為目前相關電動的續航力還有其限制，所以這個部分我們也在滾動檢討相關技術的發展，如果相關續航力有到那個地方的話，我們會來做推動。另外，我跟委員報告新增能源的部分，我們也在推動氫燃料電池，也就是氫的部分，可能未來遊覽車上山下海、比較長旅程的部分，這個可能是一個解決方案，但是這個技術目前還在發展中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。在長旅程的部分，自動車也許還沒有那麼適合，可是我們在整個先進駕駛輔助系統當中，也許是可以先協助他們，讓他們在整個車安中能夠有一個更好的成果，這個部分可不可以先開始推動？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，針對遊覽車的ADAS相關先進系統的補助，這個早在幾年前就已經開始在做了，公路總局現在每年的遊覽車評鑑裡面就有包括配備先進系統，有納到這個評鑑項目裡面來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。我接下來想問一下，交通部對於各家電動車在臺灣掛牌的數量，現在是不是有針對不同的品牌有統計的數字？"],["林司長福山：有，因為從99年就開始補助電動……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，臺灣現在總共有多少特斯拉上路？有沒有數字？太細的話，你可以之後再補給我。"],["林司長福山：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我特別要問是因為美國國家公路交通安全管理局近3年的調查報告指出特斯拉有關鍵性的安全缺陷，針對這個部分，我們國內有沒有做一個相關的調查？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，國內也是有汽車安全性召回改正的機制，就我所瞭解的部分，美國有實施召回改正的案子，在國內都有實施。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。美國現在有開放全自動的輔助駕駛嘛，臺灣有沒有開放？"],["林司長福山：目前就是在這個沙盒裡面，特定路段、特定時段、特定條件在做試運行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為時間關係，因為我在想說這幾年有關於ADAS這部分，其實全世界都很普遍地在推動，德國已經有開始開放自動駕駛法，讓無人車可以直接上路了，臺灣有沒有相關法規開始在推動？有沒有預計什麼時候會送進院裡面來？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目前除了沙盒實驗的特定條件之外，一般道路基本上都還是在……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個沙盒計畫大概到什麼時候會完備？"],["林司長福山：沙盒的部分是屬於技術測試的部分，要真正可以到實際道路開放自動駕駛，目前在技術上面都還有距離，但是在我們報告裡面也說明相關因應的法規調適，我們現在已經開始在做準備了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。以上，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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對不對就表示新竹市...所以說我要講的狀態就是說就新竹市這補助的量其實顯然是少的那我們很需要新竹市是一個科技城我們很需要有更多的一個補助在這個地方那我們希望接下來新竹市這邊有提出來的所有的補助計畫的時候中部這邊能夠給予多多的支持"},{"start":130.885,"end":151.691,"text":"我們交通部態度就是全力支持希望業者能夠提出因為我們相關的經費還是充足的然後這個要全面推動的這個騎乘是既定那對於非市區公車的部分的一般旅遊的巴士的時候我們有沒有自動化的一個推動的一個計畫"},{"start":154.776,"end":177.998,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下剛剛就是說遊覽車的部分因為目前相關電動的一個續航力的那個部分還有它的限制那所以這個部分的話我們也在滾動這個相關技術的一個這個發展那如果說它相關的續航力有到那個地方的話我們會這個來做一個這個推動那另外一個部分我也跟委員報告那個新生這個"},{"start":179.399,"end":203.074,"text":"新增能源的部分那我們也在推動這個氫燃料電池這個氫的那個部分那可能未來遊覽車這個上山下海比較長旅程這個部分這個可能是一個解決方案但是這個技術也目前在在長旅程的部分的時候我們自動車也許還沒有那麼適合可是我們在整個先進駕駛輔助系統當中的時候也許是可以先"},{"start":203.954,"end":205.655,"text":"公務總局現在每年的這個遊覽車的一個評鑑裡面就有包括配備先進系統納到這個評鑑項目裡面來"},{"start":226.527,"end":227.768,"text":"臺灣現在總共有多少特斯拉上路有沒有數字"},{"start":254.541,"end":265.236,"text":"美國全國公路交通安全管理局近三年的調查報告指出特斯拉有關鍵性的安全缺陷我們國內有沒有做過相關的調查?"},{"start":269.379,"end":272.322,"text":"美國有開放全自動輔助駕駛嗎?台灣有沒有開放?"},{"start":287.113,"end":315.241,"text":"跟委員報告目前就是在沙盒裡面特定路段、特定時段、特定條件在做試運行因為我在想說這幾年其實有關於AIDAS這部分其實全世界都很普遍在推動德國已經有開始開放自動駕駛法讓無人車可以直接上路了台灣有沒有相關的法規開始在推動"},{"start":316.581,"end":317.442,"text":"沙盒的部分是屬於技術測試的部分"},{"start":333.865,"end":334.125,"text":"以上,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583b524d2efb53f73d1ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e15bdf3d81c64cf4bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:11:41 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10:24:28","影片長度":"00:12:47","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":767,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T10:24:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T10:11:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時11分）主席謝謝，麻煩請交通部陳次長跟運安會林主委。"],["主席：請次長跟主委。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，2030年我們希望達到公車全面電動化，到底會有多少輛的公車要電動化？"],["陳次長彥伯：依我們的規劃，大概1萬1,700輛……"],["洪委員孟楷：1萬1,700輛。"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上1萬2,000輛。"],["洪委員孟楷：那到現在還有6年的時間可以達成這個目標，今年2024年，到目前為止，你的報告裡面是1,944輛，換言之還有將近9,500輛左右需要達到這個目標。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們有規劃，原則上今年大概要有25%，然後在25年……"],["洪委員孟楷：預計今年年底要達到多少輛電動化？"],["陳次長彥伯：三千多輛。"],["洪委員孟楷：三千多輛，去年底本來目標是2,030輛，結果跳票了嘛！目前是落後將近20%，本席希望你達到，我開宗明義先講，我今天來質詢是希望能夠督促我們的目標達成，因為既然你已經訂下一個2030年要全面電動化，我們再檢討好不好？所以我現在只是想確認今年年底可以有三千多輛，有保證嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，確實去年稍微落差，今年的目標量是3,300輛……"],["洪委員孟楷：3,300輛？能夠保證？"],["林司長福山：缺額大概是一千三百多輛，目前公路總局，各地方政府報上來的，已經審查當中的大概有一千兩百多輛，所以相關一千三百多輛的部分，今年年底都可以核定然後來打造車輛。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要美化數字啦！我們要的是能夠真的上路，對不對？你的達成不是說到最後審查通過，然後沒有辦法真的上路，我們現在講的都是真的領牌，領牌的車輛是一千九百多輛嘛！對不對？兩個部分是民眾或客運業者認為現在為什麼電動化巴士那麼困難的原因，我想之前媒體也有報導，本席也去做瞭解，也聽了很多業者的心聲，兩個，第一、國產電動大巴選擇性太少，到目前為止有幾家合格廠商？"],["林司長福山：報告委員，目前通過10項國產化的部分有兩家。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩家廠商？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：連汽車客運業者都講說這3年只有成運跟華德兩家取得，據瞭解還有3、4家同業努力爭取符合示範型的補助計畫沒有通過，可能真的是因為門檻太高，這是業者講的。到目前為止，本席也納悶，既然我們大家也希望推動電動化，能夠取得這樣子合格的部分只有這兩家，那會不會真的是門檻太高？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目前通過的是這2家，但其實還有3家，我們跟經濟部一直在輔導，最近應該會有新通過的……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經有廠商取得可能的門檻，是不是？"],["林司長福山：在經濟部的分組裡面大概已經通過了，我們後續會召開委員會做審查確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外有講到第二個問題是台電不給電，業者很苦惱，也就是配電的部分。因為很多客運業者叫苦連天，電動巴士的充電柱依賴台電的電力供給，但是台電的電力供給，可能電動巴士停放的地方相對來講是比較空曠的地方，空曠的地方也許電網配置沒有那麼足夠，所以在南港、內湖、本席的新北市八里，台電當初規劃時沒想到會增加那麼多的用電量，現在突然間要用電動巴士就會碰上供電瓶頸，這部分公路總局以及相關單位能夠怎麼樣協助？否則會變成2030年的時候我們大家都用電動巴士，結果電動巴士放在那邊沒有電可以用、沒有電可以充。"],["連署長錦漳：跟委員報告，剛才……"],["洪委員孟楷：它要設置充電樁卻沒辦法設置，台電供電不了。"],["連署長錦漳：跟委員報告，剛才委員提的中山、松山、內湖、南港，台電要建一個松湖超高壓變電所，現在已經拿到建照了，預計今年7月興建完成，就可以解決剛才委員講的那些問題，主要是變電站的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：那其他呢？"],["連署長錦漳：其他還是因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席的八里跟其他各縣市，你剛才講的是臺北，以本席粗淺的推估，臺北相對來講人口數比較多，比較容易建設，但是其他縣市呢？一萬兩千多臺電動巴士，難道只有在臺北市嗎？還是全臺灣都要有？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，原則上客運業者提出申請的時候，我們大概都會跟地方政府再討論，你說明一下。"],["連署長錦漳：跟委員報告，目前受理的電動車、公車充電用站總共有84件，已經解決79件，5件正在進行施工。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，拉回來啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這一點不要聽美化的數字，說實在話，現在每年逐步成長、增加，剛剛也提到今年底，以你的標準只有25%，已經讓所有業者認為供電站沒辦法好好供應這25%了，到往後6年的成長是300%，你要從25%成長到100%，你的供電系統基礎建設有沒有辦法成長300%？這才是關鍵。所以本席今天提出來的問題在於交通部應該主動協助客運業者跟台電，跟經濟部商討哪邊應該要加強電網，這一點才是重點吧？次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我想委員建議、提示得很好，這一部分我們會跟經濟部共同努力，其實現在國道服務區有關充電樁電網就是用這樣的方式跟台電預為規劃，所以他們已經就高速公路服務區的電網如何輸送……"],["洪委員孟楷：相關單位是誰來做主要的負責、主要的溝通？公路局還是路政司？"],["陳次長彥伯：公路局跟各縣市政府有個對應的窗口，整體性上沒問題，一開始的會議……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席只想確認……"],["陳次長彥伯：一開始由交通部跟經濟部先開個會，接下去的後續執行請公路局處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，交通部跟經濟部什麼時候要開會？也讓本席知道一下吧！"],["陳次長彥伯：我們一個月內來召開會議。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月內召開供電配置跟電動車的……"],["陳次長彥伯：一個協調會議。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。最後，運安會主委，上次您來的時候，本席有特別跟您瞭解、質詢過現在的電動車，我最後一分鐘就好。主委，本席那時候跟您請教現在電動車產生那麼多事故，你那時候跟大家講預計明年5月調查報告出爐，現在會不會有提前的狀況？大家都那麼關心，今天我們又再一次針對汽車自動駕駛系統進行專案報告，你還是堅守調查事故要到明年5月才能出爐嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們6月份就有一個事實資料調查報告出來，預定明年6月全部的報告都會出來，因為我們現在有一個案子……"],["洪委員孟楷：更晚喔？本來是明年5月，現在變明年6月？"],["林主任委員信得：不是，我剛剛講錯了，事實資料報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以查清楚再講？不然這樣大家會很錯愕。"],["林主任委員信得：請執行長說明，因為有兩個數字。"],["林執行長沛達：報告委員，我們的事實資料報告會在今年6月份發布，明年5月份我們會發布調查報告，雖然是明年5月份，但是我們目前正在加速進行，希望看能不能在今年底之前儘速完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，這就是大家想要聽到的，社會大眾都在關心的時候，我們要積極作為，6月的時候會讓大家先知道一些電動車事故發生的成因，希望趕在今年底有最終的調查結果，是這樣嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：應該是這樣沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席想要確認一下，今天你特別提到修訂重大公路運輸事故範圍，朝降低啟動調查門檻及擴大調查範圍的方向進行。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的思考方向是怎樣？"],["林主任委員信得：原來的重大運輸事故調查範圍裡面，公路、水路、航空是一體的……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，我們現在只講公路。"],["林主任委員信得：公路的部分，我們本來的門檻是四個人死亡，我們現在把它降低……"],["洪委員孟楷：三位以上死亡。"],["林主任委員信得：三位就可以調查，在範圍方面，我們也可以用所謂的霸王條款，只要涉及社會關注度大或是人民生命財產有危險，我們覺得一直頻繁發生事故的時候就會主動調查它，所以剛剛委員說……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，所以跟現行法規有什麼不同？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有不同，我們另外……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有不同？你說要修改、啟動降低調查門檻，擴大調查範圍，然後又說沒有不同，這樣是「莊孝維」？"],["林主任委員信得：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席為什麼特別問這一句是因為現行法規，第一點是行車事故造成重大死亡，第二點是發生爆炸以及相關的危害物品，以及第三點是財產重大影響、重複發生或情況特殊致影響公路運輸安全，且經運安會認定有調查之必要，就可以啟動調查。換言之，重複發生、情況特殊影響公路運輸安全，經運安會認定就可以調查，這就是現行法規的規範。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：電動車的事故從2016、2017年大家比較普及用電動車開始，高速公路上一而再、再而三發生事故，我們之前調出數據，高速公路去年有一百多件、快兩百件電動車自駕而造成的狀況，當然最終不一定都是因為自駕所發生的，但至少每年已經有一、兩百件，那就是重複發生、那就是影響公路安全、那就是運安會認定可以調查就調查了，所以根本不需要修法才能去做。這一點本席要講的是做與不做，其實現行法規已經給你們權力去做，這也是我們成立運安會的時候期待應該要做的事情，不要再搪塞說要再修訂，好像現在不關你們的事，要等到修訂之後，那啟動修法還要多久？你還要送委員會，委員會之後送交通部，交通部之後送行政院，行政院之後再送來立法院，立法院再審查，光修法要再修一年、兩年，這樣對嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們現行條文就可以啟動電動車……"],["洪委員孟楷：是！"],["林主任委員信得：但是我們的修正是要把一些新興運具也一併納進來的意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有什麼比電動車自駕更嚴重的新興運具？"],["林主任委員信得：電動車的部分，我們已經啟動……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有什麼？"],["林主任委員信得：還有一些新興的運具，比如說……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有什麼影響範圍那麼廣的新興運具？主委，拜託！我們今天好好說事情，本席點出來荒謬之處是希望所有的行政人員好好做，不要做紙上文章，我們真的找出問題、找出原因、解決原因，這才是國人想看到的，可以嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝主委。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接著請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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對不對"},{"start":136.019,"end":154.96,"text":"兩個部分是民眾或說這個客運業者認為說現在為什麼電動化巴士那麼困難的原因我想之前媒體有報導本身也去做了解也聽了很多業者的一個心聲兩個第一國產電動大巴選擇性太少到目前為止有幾個廠商合格廠商"},{"start":156.43,"end":178.089,"text":"報告委員目前通過這個十項國產化的部分有兩家兩家廠商連汽車客運業者都講說這三年來只有承運跟華德兩家取得據瞭解還有三四家同業努力爭取符合示範型的補助計畫沒有通過可能真的是因為門檻太高這是業者講的"},{"start":179.537,"end":190.17,"text":"那到目前為止本席也納悶了既然大家我們也希望是推動電動化那能夠取得這樣子一個合格的部分只有這兩家那會不會真的是門檻太高"},{"start":192.028,"end":213.472,"text":"跟我們報告一下目前通過是這兩家那其實有三家一直我們跟這個經濟部一直在補導應該最近啦應該最近會有新通過的這個已經有廠商有取得大概就是在這個經濟部的分組裡面大概已經審查通過了我們後續會召開委員會來做審查確認"},{"start":217.15,"end":240.14,"text":"那另外也有講到第二個問題是臺電不給電業者很苦惱就是配電的部分因為很多業者也很多客戶連天啊講說在電動巴士的這個充電柱依賴臺電的電力供給但是臺電的電力供給在每一個地方因為電動巴士可能停放的地方相對來講是比較空曠的地方"},{"start":240.74,"end":262.192,"text":"那空曠的地方也許它的電網就配置沒有那麼足夠所以南港、內湖、新北市本期的巴黎臺電當初規劃就沒有想到會有增加那麼多的用電量那現在突然間說要用電動巴士了就會碰上供電瓶頸那在這個部分我們公路總局以及相關單位能夠怎麼樣協助"},{"start":265,"end":293.951,"text":"否則會變成說我們到2013年的時候我們大家都是用電動巴士結果電動巴士放在那邊沒有電可以用沒有電可以充他要設置充電樁沒有辦法設置台電的供電供電不了來各位委員報告剛才委員提的那個中山、松山內、武蘭港他因為那個台電的那個要建一個松湖超高超高變電所現在建造已經拿到了吼那預計今年7月可以興建完成就可以解決剛才委員講的那些問題主要是變電站的問題那其他勒"},{"start":295.604,"end":312.634,"text":"本席的巴黎其他各縣市你剛剛講的是台北嘛台北相對來講以本席出錢的推估因為人口數比較多嘛比較容易建設嘛那但是其他縣市呢你一萬兩千多台電動巴士難道只有在台北市嗎還是全台灣都要有"},{"start":313.494,"end":341.11,"text":"我跟委員報告 原則上這個客運業者在提出這個申請的時候我們大概都會跟地方政府再來好 幫你說明一下跟委員報告 目前整個在受理要有電動車、公車充電利用站總共有84件那已經解決79件那5件現在正在進行施工市長 那回來了我覺得這一點不要聽美化的數字 說實在話"},{"start":342.765,"end":350.702,"text":"你現在每年逐步成長增加剛剛也提到你現在到今年年底只有百分之以你的標準25%"},{"start":352.466,"end":373.899,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":374.039,"end":386.157,"text":"本席今天提出來的問題在於是我們應該要協助交通部這邊應該要主動協助就是說客運業者跟我們的台電以及經濟部這邊來做一個商討哪邊應該要加強電網"},{"start":388.567,"end":414.597,"text":"這一點才是重點吧是我想委員建議提示的很好這部分我們會跟經濟部共同來努力其實現在這個國道服務區有關那個充電裝電網就是用這樣的方式跟台電來育為規劃所以他們已經就這個高速公路服務區的電網以這樣的單位相關單位是誰來做主要的負責?公路總局嗎?公路局嗎?還是路政司?"},{"start":416.155,"end":417.616,"text":"交通部跟經濟部什麼時候要開會?"},{"start":435.821,"end":458.592,"text":"你讓本席知道一下吧我們一個月內來召開會議一個月內召開供電配置跟電動車協調的一個會議還是好 謝謝來最後那個主委剛剛運安會主委本席上一次您來的時候有特別跟您瞭解質詢過就是我們現在電動車來可以先請回抱歉我最後一分鐘就好"},{"start":459.639,"end":484.997,"text":"主委本期那時候有跟您請教過就是有關於說我們電動車現在產生那麼多的事故你那個時候跟大家講的是預計明年5月調查報告出爐嗎現在會不會有提前的狀況大家都那麼關心今天我們又再一次的針對汽車自動駕駛系統進行專案報告你還是堅守你的調查事故要到明年5月才能出爐嗎"},{"start":486.408,"end":509.525,"text":"我們6月份就有一個事實資料調查報告出來然後明年的6月嗎明年的6月就會全部報告出來因為我們現在有一個案子更晚喔不是啦本來是明年5月現在變明年6月不是我剛剛講錯了那個事實資料報告可不可以查清楚再講不然這樣大家會很錯愕來請"},{"start":520.377,"end":540.641,"text":"報告委員我們的那個事實資料報告我們會在今年的6月份我們會發布那明年的5月份我們會發布調查報告那雖然是明年5月份但是我們目前正在加速進行所以希望能夠看能不能在今年年底之前能夠盡速完成好 來 主委"},{"start":542.275,"end":547.888,"text":"這個就是大家想要聽到的是社會大眾大家都關心的時候我們要積極的作為"},{"start":550.021,"end":571.348,"text":"6月的時候會讓大家先知道是說我們電動車的一些事故發生的一個成因那希望能夠趕在今年年底能夠有最終調查結果是這樣嗎應該是這樣沒有錯那本席想要確認一下今天你有特別提到修訂重大公路運輸範圍事故範圍有朝降低啟動調查門檻跟擴大調查範圍的方向進行"},{"start":574.91,"end":596.77,"text":"你的思考方向是怎樣?原來的重創事故事調查範圍裡面,它公路、水路、航空它是一體的。公路的部分,我們本來門檻是要4個人使用,我們現在把它降低,3位以上使用。然後它的範圍方便我們也可以用這裡面講的所謂的霸王條款,只要"},{"start":597.731,"end":599.652,"text":"所以那跟現行的法規有什麼不同?沒有不同"},{"start":612.81,"end":635.015,"text":"那沒有不同你在跟我們講說你要修改、啟動、降低調查門檻、擴大調查範圍然後又說沒有不同?因為...啊你這樣是裝笑話所以本席特別提出為什麼會特別問這一句就是因為現行法規是除了第一點事故重大死亡第二點發生爆炸以及相關的危害物品以及第三點"},{"start":636.911,"end":656.818,"text":"財產重大影響重複發生或是情況特殊致影響公路運輸安全且經運安會認定有調查之必要就可以啟動調查換言之重複發生情況特殊影響公路運輸安全運安會認定就可以調查這就是現行法規的規範"},{"start":657.978,"end":685.587,"text":"那電動車的這個事故從2016、2017年開始大家比較普及用電動車高速公路上一而再再三發生事故我們之前就調出數據嘛高速公路去年有一百多件快兩百件的這種電動車自駕而造成的狀況當然是不是最終都是因為自駕所發生的不一定但是至少已經有一兩百件每年那就是重複發生那就是影響公路安全那就是運安會認定可以調查就調查了"},{"start":686.747,"end":709.636,"text":"所以根本不需要去修法才能說我來去做所以這一點本席要講的是做與不做其實現行法規就已經可以給你們全力去做這也是我們期待成立運安會的時候應該要做的事情不要再搪塞說我要再修訂好像現在不管你們的事要修訂之後那啟動修法"},{"start":710.74,"end":732.228,"text":"還要多久?你說還要送委員會、交通部、交通部之後送行政院行政院之後再送來立法院,立法院再審查光修法又要再修一年兩年這樣講對嗎?我們現行條文就可以啟動電動車但是我們的修正是要把一些新的運具也納進來一道納進來的那還有什麼?還有什麼比電動車現在自駕更嚴重的新興運具?電動車的部分我們已經 還有什麼?"},{"start":739.326,"end":739.346,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},{"id":"152679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583839041cc050c5d90ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e1a931418b5c04cd175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:04:21 - 10:11:28","影片長度":"00:07:07","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":427,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T10:11:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T10:04:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":231,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（10時4分）謝謝主席，是不是請交通部陳次長？"],["主席：有請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員德福：次長你好。請教因為有許多民眾在開高速公路的時候，開車會開啟輔助駕駛系統，根據高公局的統計，112年緩撞車遭撞121件，有77件、63.6%疑似使用自動輔助駕駛系統，追撞緩撞車的問題，在國內有增加發生的趨勢，讓人擔心未來自動駕駛技術的發展，請問交通部，追撞問題能夠解決嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我簡單說明一下然後再請林司長來做補充。原則上，緩撞拖車在高速公路上，自駕所引起的事故，我們大概分幾個面向，第一個是車子的本身跟使用手冊上，我們要清楚地請車商去說明，現在的這種不是自動駕駛，其實它是輔助駕駛，在這上面人的因素還是很重要，然後對於車商，當然我們也會做一些調查，詳細的情形我請林司長來做說明。"],["林司長福山：這個部分大概跟委員報告一下，目前大概車輛配備的部分都叫做輔助駕駛系統，都還沒到所謂的自動駕駛系統，我們也怕這些相關車商在銷售車輛的時候有過度的宣傳，車主在使用的時候有過度不當的使用，所以大概剛剛次長講的部分，我們分幾個層面，第一個部分，要求車商或者是代理商，在車主使用手冊所配備的輔助駕駛系統，都要明確去說明它的功能使用限制，而且……"],["林委員德福：你不能全部都推給車商啊！我認為立法院法制局有建議道交條例增訂有關自動駕駛之違規行為態樣與罰則，交通部你們的看法如何？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告，分兩塊，針對現在輔助駕駛系統的部分，依規定手還是要放在方向盤上面，如果手沒有放在方向盤上面的話，依照現行處罰條例第四十三條就是危險駕駛，處6,000到2萬4,000元，而且要吊扣相關的駕照。另外一個部分就是未來針對自駕的部分，我們目前已經在研議相關處罰條例的法規調適草案。"],["林委員德福：我認為這個很重要，因為立法院也已多次修法提高處罰酒駕，酒駕除了罰錢外，還會吊扣以及吊銷他的駕照。今年3月有媒體報導說有民眾第15次酒駕被抓，許多酒駕的累犯還是無照駕駛，甚至於危害大眾的交通安全，為瞭解整個酒駕累犯無照駕駛的情形，請交通部一個月內整理出一年的資料，說明10年內第3次酒駕累犯或拒測的累犯而且無照駕駛之統計資料給本席，有沒有困難？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有，我們來提供給委員。"],["林委員德福：對於酒駕累犯罰錢不怕，吊銷駕照他也不痛不癢，喝酒無照繼續上路，請問交通部，未來會如何改善這個問題呢？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，委員剛剛所提的這個課題，去年在修正處罰條例的時候也特別考量這個部分，第一點就是無照駕駛本身提高罰鍰；第二個部分，針對酒駕吊銷駕照之後再駕車的部分，就是再加罰1萬2,000塊；另外一個部分就是把這樣子的情況列入相關發生事故加重其刑至二分之一來做處理。"],["林委員德福：我認為累犯，而且一次、一次，又危害到其他人的生命，這是很嚴重的問題，交通部一定要重視，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，累犯其實在處罰條例是一直在修啦！"],["林委員德福：對啊！再加重啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，加重，我們再來看……"],["林委員德福：因為我提的一個法，上次就要公布有公布，但是我認為甚至於有的公布他根本就……他已經沒有辦法……"],["陳次長彥伯：麻痺了！"],["林委員德福：已經皮了，沒有辦法改了啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我們相關的刑法上，其實酒駕現在是以刑法在處理，所以整體性上，委員特別提到的，我們一個月內提出資料的時候，看有沒有什麼建議再向委員……"],["林委員德福：因為酒駕遭吊銷駕照重新考照，一年內要開車或騎車，依規定車輛都應該要加裝酒精鎖……"],["陳次長彥伯：現在也是這樣做。"],["林委員德福：根據110年12月統計，酒駕吊銷駕照重新考照有2,598人，車子有裝酒精鎖的卻只有103輛而已，酒精鎖執行成效似乎也不佳啦！請交通部一個月內整理酒精鎖相關執行的統計數據，汽車與機車要分別統計整理。此外交通部過去說要修法，要求酒駕再考駕照的話，必須要開著裝有酒精鎖的車輛來應考，像這些修法，你們哪時候可以提出版本來？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告，剛剛委員關切的那個課題，所以在去年也修了，就是說如果酒駕被吊銷駕駛執照，重新再來考照，要核發駕照，他就必須要有酒精鎖的車輛才會核發駕照給他，如果沒有這樣子的車輛都不發駕照，所以後來就是說，以往剛剛委員講的那個情況，到目前沒有加裝酒精鎖的車輛，他即使考驗合格了，監理機關依法也不能核發駕照給他。"],["林委員德福：我是希望，因為酒駕累犯也不少啦！而且這也危害到周遭民眾，甚至於你看大馬路上，他酒駕，他已經幾乎都沒有辦法自控了，一次撞死人，你看一次又一次啦，每一次講歸講，媒體也報，但是就是沒有辦法改善，這是很嚴重的問題喔！我希望交通部在這方面，你們一定要正視，把剛剛我要的資料，你們統計以後給本席，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們來提供。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席（游委員顥代）：謝謝林德福委員。接著請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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有建議說倒交條例"},{"start":125.319,"end":140.775,"text":"鎮定有關自動駕駛之違規行為太樣與華澤那交通部你們的看法如何?這個部分我跟委員報告分兩塊針對這個現在這個輔助駕駛系統的部位依規定所還是要放在這個方向盤上面"},{"start":141.135,"end":142.356,"text":"立法院也以多次來修法提高"},{"start":165.027,"end":184.866,"text":"處罰酒駕,那酒駕除了罰錢外,還會吊扣以及吊銷他的駕照。那今年3月有媒體報導說有民眾第15次酒駕被抓,那許多酒駕的累犯還是無照駕駛,甚至於危害大眾的交通安全。"},{"start":186.227,"end":211.338,"text":"那為了解整個酒駕累換、無照駕駛的這種情形請交通部一個月內啊你們把它整理出來一年的資料說明10年內啊第三次酒駕累換或據冊的累換而且無照駕駛之統計資料給本席有沒有困難沒有我們來提供給委員那對於酒駕累換、花錢不怕、吊銷駕照"},{"start":212.995,"end":217.498,"text":"委員剛剛所提的這個課題去年在修正處罰條例的時候那也特別考量這個部分第一點就是無照駕駛本身提高緩緩"},{"start":231.229,"end":258.894,"text":"那第二個部分針對酒駕這個吊銷駕照之後在於這個駕車的部分的話就是在於加法一萬兩千塊那另外一個部分的話就是把這樣子的情況列入這個相關發生事故這個加重刑刑二分之一來做一個處理我認為齁這個累換齁而且一次一次齁這個要危害到就是其他人的生命這是很嚴重的問題啊交通部一定要重視"},{"start":261.087,"end":261.107,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":277.836,"end":278.376,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":298.086,"end":308.189,"text":"酒駕、吊銷、駕照、重新考照一年內要開車或騎車依規定車輛都應該要加裝酒精索根據110年12月統計酒駕、吊銷、駕照、重新考照有2598人車子有裝酒精索的卻只有103輛而已103輛"},{"start":324.835,"end":352.944,"text":"那酒精所執行成效似乎也不佳啦那請交通部一個月內你們把它整理酒精所相關執行的統計、數據啊汽車與機車要分別統計來整理那此外交通部過去說要修法要求酒駕在考駕照的話必須要開著裝有酒精所的車輛來應考像這些修法你們哪時候可以提出版本來"},{"start":354.188,"end":368.644,"text":"這個不問我跟委員報告就是剛剛委員關切的那個課題所以在去年也修了就是說如果酒駕被吊銷駕駛執照重新再來考照的時候要核發駕照他就必須要有酒精所的車輛"},{"start":369.485,"end":386.424,"text":"我才會核發駕照給他如果沒有這樣子的車輛都不發駕照所以後來就是說以往剛剛委員講的那個情況到目前大概就是說他沒有加裝走進所的車輛他即使考驗合格了建立機關依法也不能核發駕照給他"},{"start":387.065,"end":402.33,"text":"我是希望說因為酒駕累犯也不少而且這也危害到周遭民眾甚至於你看這個大馬路上他酒駕他已經幾乎自己都沒有辦法自控了"},{"start":403.911,"end":404.011,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5836636e6e9a1b1ab54ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e18255030c01a61e3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：次長好。今天的議題很少在交通委員會列這樣的一個專題報告，這個非常好。事實上，在107年立法院就三讀通過「無人載具科技創新實驗條例」，第一條的立法目的：「為鼓勵無人載具科技之研究發展與應用，建構完善且安全之創新實驗環境，以促進產業技術及創新服務之發展，特制定本條例。」從107年到現在也有好幾年了，當然你們今天的報告也特別提到這幾年的努力，也核定了「2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫」，就是從今年開始到119年，7年共643.27億元，來推動客運車輛電動化推動計畫，在你們的報告這樣的計畫裡面，當然目前是包含之前19個縣市，陸續有電動市區公車投入營運、提供服務。請問一下，這19個縣市是哪些縣市？"],["林司長福山：這部分我大概跟委員報告一下，大概包括6都跟其他部分，我想19個縣市倒過來說，有22個縣市，大概就是有3個縣市沒有啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：哪3個縣市沒有？"],["林司長福山：就我所瞭解，3個縣市應該是連江、花蓮跟南投。"],["陳次長彥伯：臺東有啊！花蓮也有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：就是偏遠的縣沒有？"],["林司長福山：新竹市沒有，南投縣也沒有，臺東有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：臺東有，花蓮沒有？"],["林司長福山：花蓮也有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：花蓮也有。"],["林司長福山：連江沒有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分要請交通部，當然這個都不是長期的，現在是進行幾年而已，就是要把已經在推動的部分，尤其是在營運的部分能夠落實推動，很重要的是因為當初我們在制定無人載具科技創新實驗條例的時候，還有包括其他的道路交通法規，怎麼樣能夠透過一部分縣市的推動執行，然後滾動修正、調整，提出修正的規劃，甚至有具體條文的修正，可以嗎？"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告一下，裡面有兩塊，我想公車自駕的部分，我們持續跟產發署來推動技術上面的發展；有關於電動大客車普及化的部分，我們今年會有另外一個重點，因為目前電動大客車大概普遍集中在六都，我們今年希望針對六都以外，譬如像包括臺東、花蓮這種公車數量比較少的縣市，我們希望能夠儘快把它全電動化，電動化應該是在比較偏鄉的縣市優先來實施。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道現在這個計畫跟無人載具還差很遠啦！還沒到那個地步啦！我的意思是透過這樣的推動，怎麼樣能夠往這個方向去努力，可能無人載具還是會在都市地區會比較先開始使用。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員提到相關法規的研議或對應，我們會來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外，上次跟次長也提到了，因為我禮拜六有去花蓮豐濱鄉，真的是很危險，那個石頭可能不用說很大的雨，一些小雨可能隨時就會掉下來，所以透過這次對地理環境的瞭解、氣候的瞭解、地質的瞭解充分地把它處理，因為這個隨時會掉下來，對人員安全真的是會很危險，因為台11線也是重要的省道，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：有，會做相關的邊坡復建工作，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","再來有請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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次長好 是這個今天這樣的議題很少在交通委員會列這樣的一個專題報告 這個非常好事實上在107年 立法院就三讀通過無人載具科技創新實驗條例"},{"start":44.189,"end":44.709,"text":"107年到現在也有好幾年了"},{"start":66.431,"end":76.196,"text":"當然你們今天的報告也特別提到這個這幾年的一個努力這個也核定了2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫也就是從今年開始到19這個7年共643億643.27億元來這個推動這個"},{"start":94.574,"end":117.072,"text":"客運車輛電動化的一個推動計畫那這樣的一個計畫裡面的報告這個到目前是包含之前的19個縣市陸續有電動四驅公車投入營運提供服務請問一下這個19個縣市是哪些縣市"},{"start":120.793,"end":147.719,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員這個報告一下大概包括六都跟其他部分我想19個部分這個倒過來22個縣市大概就是三個縣市沒有啦哪三個縣市沒有就我所了解三個縣市的部分應該是連江金門連江台東跟花蓮這個台東有花蓮也有這個南投南投"},{"start":149.966,"end":152.849,"text":"所以這個部分這個要請交通部,當然這個大家都在"},{"start":175.845,"end":181.127,"text":"我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況：鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":204.396,"end":227.618,"text":"還有包括我們其他的交通的法規道路交通的法規怎麼樣能夠透過這個一部分的縣市的推動執行然後能夠滾動修正調整提出這個修正的一個規劃或是甚至有具體的調整的修正可以嗎"},{"start":229.099,"end":255.185,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告下 裡面有兩塊我想這個公車自駕的那個部分我們持續跟廠方處來這個推動技術上面的發展那有關於這個就是電動大客車的普及化的這個部分的話我們今年會有另外一個重點因為目前電動大客車大概普遍集中在這個六都那我們今天希望針對六都以外的比如像包括台東、花蓮這種公車數量比較少的部分我們希望能夠把它這個盡快把它這個全電動化"},{"start":257.466,"end":282.889,"text":"然後讓其實這套電動化應該是在比較偏向這個部分應該優先來這個實施當然我剛現在這個計畫我知道這個計畫是跟那個無人載機還差很遠還沒有到那個地步我第一說從透過這樣的一個推動然後怎麼樣能夠往這個方向去努力讓這個可能無人載機還是會在都市地區會比較"},{"start":285.213,"end":288.703,"text":"會先開始委員提到的相關法規的研議或對應我們會來努力"},{"start":292.538,"end":318.694,"text":"另外就是說這個上次跟次長也提到了因為我禮拜六禮拜六去這個封冰箱花蓮封冰箱真的是很危險那個石頭可能不要說很大的魚一些小魚可能就會隨時會掉下來所以這個部分這個透過這一次的一個"},{"start":321.883,"end":342.976,"text":"對地理環境的瞭解、氣候的瞭解對地質的瞭解來充分的把它因為這個隨時會掉下來對人臉的安全真的是會很危險因為這個台11線也是這個重要的一個省道好不好有會做那個相關的一個復健工作好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583701e0ee737adef78ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e15b5cf774a2689c845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:50:37 - 09:58:05","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":448,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T09:58:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T09:50:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時50分）謝謝主席，依據今天的主題，先邀請交通部陳次長、公共運輸及監理司林司長。"],["主席：請陳次長、林司長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。次長，我們今天主要是討論電動車，2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫是由你們和其他部門一起推動的計畫，編列643億完成1萬4,500輛公車電動化，我為什麼會特別關注電動車，因為我來自臺中，臺中是個苦主城市，電動大客車包含購車成本、營運成本、電池汰舊成本及充電場站設置成本，這四個都完備之後才有可能真正完成所謂的公車電動化計畫。2030年要完成這個計畫，編列643億要做1萬4,500輛，換句話說，等於每一輛車分配到的補助大概443萬，如果是這樣的話，其實理想很豐滿、現實很骨感，現實是什麼呢？現在業界據我所瞭解的，臺中最近出現很多這個問題，所以我有去瞭解一下，基本上，每輛電動公車的造價是上千萬，光是售價就上千萬，後續的營運成本包含後面提到的電池汰舊、充電場站設置等，它的營運成本是傳統油車的四倍，所以就算有政府補助，這個虧損也非常難以彌補。","其實之前臺中幾家電動公車業者都是用虧錢方式在經營電動車轉型，再來是電池損耗，其實大家都沒有注意到電池損耗，以現在的科技來講，電池損耗也是一件很可怕的事情，我有去瞭解他們的財報、瞭解業界的狀況，製造商光是電池成本大概就500萬，一台車一千多萬左右，電池成本500萬，有的會更高，第1年的衰退率大概8%，車輛跑了3到5年之後可能會衰退30%。理論上，在安全維護上電動車需要維持所謂25%的剩餘電量，它用到第5年的電池續航力只能達到45%，所以到第5年之後幾乎就要換新車了，它不像傳統的柴油公車、傳統油車可以用10年、15年，甚至20年的市內公車都還在路上跑。電動車因為受限於電池損耗的問題，我們要推動2030年客運車輛電動化推動計劃，要怎麼樣達到這個目標，尤其在電池這件事情上，我們有什麼樣的作法？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，第一個部分，到2030年7年的推動計劃，目前編列預算是643億元，當時估算經費部分大概有兩個前提，第一個部分是量大，相關單價就有下降的可能。"],["黃委員健豪：沒有啊！"],["林司長福山：因為後面還有一段時間。另外，電池密度技術的發展也非常的快，所以有關於電池成本的部分，我們預估後面到零期也會……第二個部分，剛剛委員有提到臺中市的客運業者，包括捷順、四方，如果以臺中市的市區客運業者來看，基本上可以切成兩類，一個是以往專注客運業者的部分，路線多、規模大，另外一個部分包括四方客運和捷順，就我所瞭解，當時他們背後都是屬於電動大客車的車廠，為了他們自己本身出產產品的使用，所以路線不多。另外，這些產品也是比較早期的部分。第三點，我跟委員提供一個數據，如果從試辦型計畫通過的這些產品，在臺北市比較大集團使用的部分，在能耗、在維修成本、在運量提升的部分，我們在3月份有舉辦成果發表，由這些客運業者總經理親自來報告，基本上相對的比傳統燃油都還要來得好。"],["黃委員健豪：司長，你的意思是我剛剛提的數據，比如說電池的損耗量，以現在的狀況，以臺北市為例好了，這些新的車廠使用電池的損耗有提升嗎？它的效率有提升嗎？"],["林司長福山：有！"],["黃委員健豪：大概多久會達到耗損到50%？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，因為從109年到現在大概3年的時間，就我所瞭解，目前試辦型車廠跟客運業者簽的，有些電池的保固是到8年。關於電池的部分，其實我們跟產發署這邊對於效能的提升都一直持續在精進。"],["黃委員健豪：次長跟司長，因為今天主要是時間也不夠了，我今天提出來就是希望在推動電動公車的同時，一定要把電池效能提到一定的比例，不要說好像用了一年、兩年電池就壞掉了，或是損耗得太嚴重，其實馬上又要換新車，它的成本就不是帳面上看到的一次買1,000萬而已，因為等於它可能在兩年後、三年後又要換新電池，電池成本又占了整車的一半，這樣其實它的意義不大啦！尤其對公車業者來講，它的營運效率會很差很差。","還有兩件事情要提提醒一下，因為今天時間不夠，後續我們可以再討論。第一個，現在這種電動公車後續的充電場站，基本上都必須要有很大的量體，它跟加油站不一樣，因為加油站是四處各地都有，這種電動公車等於所有業者都要自備土地跟自備設備來充電，所以營運成本也會提高，這部分我覺得在推動的時候，也要去思考有沒有公有地或什麼樣的地方可以提供他們充電。最後一個，這是能源議題啦！到底電動公車是不是真的環保？因為電動車真的等於環保，尤其以臺灣現在的發電量及發電模式，如果80%都使用火力發電的話，其實電動車未必等於環保的問題，還有後續電池的回收機制，這也可能需要跟環境部再討論一下，到底電動車的回收機制怎麼走？它有沒有辦法重新再利用？還是回收之後就跟現在一樣，各地的車廠把它拆解之後，又四散到奇怪的地方去。我希望在推動電動公車、在推動電動駕駛的時候，你們要把後續的回收流程要把它做好，好不好？謝謝，次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","再來有請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那我們依據今天主題先邀請交通部陳次長、公共運輸跟監理室的林司長請陳次長跟司長委員好"},{"start":19.034,"end":45.947,"text":"市長好市長今天開始我們要討論就是我今天主要是這個電動車那2030年有個客運車輛電動化的推動計畫是由你們跟這個這個其他部門一起來推動的這個計畫希望說要編列643億來完成14500輛的公車來電動化那我想這個電動車我想為什麼會特別關注這個因為我來自台中台中是個苦主城市啊"},{"start":47.388,"end":71.125,"text":"這個電動大客車它包含它購車成本、營運成本、電池太舊成本跟充電廠的設置成本這四個都完備之後才有可能真正的去完成所謂的這個公車電動化的這個問題那其實像編的這個預算2030你要完成這個部分那編了643億那要做14500輛換句話說等於每一輛它分配到的補助大概是443萬"},{"start":73.286,"end":88.323,"text":"那如果這樣講的話其實理想很豐滿啦現實很骨感啦現實是什麼呢以現在的這個業界我最有所了解到的齁因為台中最近出現了很多這個問題所以去了解了一下這個每輛電動公車基本上它每架的造價就是上千萬"},{"start":89.424,"end":107.094,"text":"光是售價就上千萬那後續的包括營運成本什麼叫營運成本就包含說後面提到的電池的太舊那充電廠的設置那這些東西他基本上的營運成本是傳統油車的四倍所以政府就算去補助那我想這個虧損也非常難以彌補"},{"start":108.075,"end":108.195,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":130.741,"end":144.036,"text":"電池製造商光是成本大概就500萬電池就500萬一台車1000萬左右1000多萬電池500萬那有的會更高那第一年的衰退率大概8%那跑3到5年之後可能會衰退30%"},{"start":145.518,"end":171.338,"text":"那電動車他理論上他在安全維護上他需要維持所謂25%的剩餘電量那如果他用到第5年的時候他大概電池只能續航力達到45%所以幾乎到第5年的時候他就要換新車了他的這個不像我們傳統的柴油公車傳統的這個油車他可以用可能10年15年甚至20年的公車都還在室內公車都在路上跑"},{"start":172.079,"end":184.541,"text":"電動車因為它受限到電池這個這個損耗的問題所以這個問題我們2013年沒有推動這個客運車輛電動化的推動計畫要怎麼樣達到這個目標尤其在電池這件事情上我們有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":187.516,"end":187.797,"text":"沒有阿﹗"},{"start":206.946,"end":207.126,"text":"主席"},{"start":225.589,"end":241.247,"text":"臺中市包括捷順或四方我跟委員報告一下其實如果說以臺中市的市民客運業者來看的話基本上可以切成這兩類有一些就是以往專注就是客運業者的一個部分路線多規模大"},{"start":241.587,"end":241.747,"text":"若從示範型"},{"start":267.728,"end":268.889,"text":"這一個相對的一個部分的話都比這個傳統男友都好"},{"start":290.228,"end":305.577,"text":"市長你的意思是說我剛剛提的數據比如說電池的損耗量以現在的這個狀況你當以台北市為例好了這些新的車廠他使用電池他的損耗有提升嗎?他的效率有提升嗎?有有有他大概多少多久會達到50%耗損到50%"},{"start":307.938,"end":333.348,"text":"根據委員報告下因為從這個就是109到現在大概三年的一個這個時間那據我所瞭解目前通過示範型車廠的一個部分跟客運業者簽的有些電池的保固是到8年有些這個電池的保固是到這8年那有關於這個電池的這個部分的話其實我們跟這個廠方署這邊那個效能的提升的部分都一直這個持續在做一個這個精進"},{"start":336.529,"end":355.238,"text":"市長跟市長其實今天主要時間也不夠了我今天提出來就是說希望在推動電動公車的同時我們電池的效能一定要把它提到一定的比例不要說好像用個一年兩年電池就壞掉了或是損耗得太嚴重那其實馬上要換新車那其他的成本就不是帳面上看到的"},{"start":355.658,"end":355.938,"text":"王健豪議員"},{"start":382.307,"end":382.427,"text":"黃健豪"},{"start":400.95,"end":414.239,"text":"就是說到底我們電動公車這是人員一體的到底是不是真的環保因為這電動車真的等於環保因為由於台灣現在的這個發電量啊台灣現在的發電的這個模式如果80%都使用火力發電的話那其實電動車它未必等於環保的問題啊"},{"start":417.721,"end":444.002,"text":"後續的回收、電池的回收、電池的回收機制這個可能跟環境部也需要再討論一下到底電動車的回收機制怎麼走他有沒有辦法重新再利用還是回收之後就跟現在一樣各地的車廠把它拆解之後又四散到奇怪的地方去這個地方我希望說在推動電動公車在推動這種電動駕駛的時候你們要把後續的回收的這個流程要把它做好好不好"},{"start":445.026,"end":445.327,"text":"好 市長 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5834baff25d4a08e22eccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e163f6e4fc8f5519665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:41:09 - 09:49:57","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":528,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T09:49:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T09:41:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":154,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時41分）謝謝主席。我們有請陳彥伯次長，還有陳文瑞局長。"],["主席：有請次長跟局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：兩位好。我想首先還是要先謝謝我們交通部跟公路局，在2月23號院會總質詢的時候，因為本席有反映桃園國道客運有很多像9005、9023的路線，也因為搭乘的乘客非常多，有關我們的乘客無法搭乘的問題，也有給我們相關的解決，4月26號針對9005的路線增開了兩個班次，分別在六點三十五分、七點以及9023A七點三十七分，這是增加的班次，但是9023A增加的是機動的一個班次，這個都是從本席的選區中正藝文特區來出發，但是經過這二十幾天將近一個月的營運，我想除了證明當時本席要求機動增班的確有需要之外，我們也發現了一些相關的問題，包括這兩個路線是不是可以再優化來增班調整，我想在這邊跟次長，還有局長來做請教。","我們看到9005的路線在六點三十五分增班的那一班，幾乎班班都客滿啦，而且還是維持一樣上不去的狀態，還是不夠，但是七點的這個班次，可能是不是因為班次的時間還有起站的問題，所以座位始終都還有餘裕，所以請次長跟局長，我們來看一下，在這個增班的班次當中，是不是還有可以優化的空間？我們可以再看一下9005的車站路線圖，因為9005其實在桃園市繞得算是蠻大圈了，從桃園火車站出發經過中路區，然後來到藝文特區上高速公路，既然在中正藝文特區前面幾站其實也有很多的民眾一直在反映，就沒有辦法搭乘上可以去臺北路線的車，所以七點開的這一班，在中正藝文特區既然每一次都是沒有滿的情況下，我想本席在這裡建議，第一個，是不是能夠再繼續加開一個班次？這是第一個。第二個，能不能夠把加開的這個班次往前調幾站？我們用這兩個方式，有沒有辦法彈性來做？"],["陳局長文瑞：謝謝委員的指教，確實就是這種國道客運要上高速公路，因為它在高速公路上不能站，所以確實有些部分如果前幾站的需求高，後面有時候就沒辦法，之前大概就是班次的調整或站位上面部分，委員的指導其實客運業者也有做了一些調整，這個部分是不是我們再來跟客運業者，就是說因為有一些加班車部分……"],["萬委員美玲：局長，你整整浪費我30秒，沒有回答半個問題啦！"],["陳局長文瑞：加班車的部分，我們會來協調業者，有些部分我們就來做一些……"],["萬委員美玲：所以本席在這裡具體要求，雖然你浪費我快要1分鐘的時間，就是現在看起來9005七點增班的那一班因為沒有滿，但是當然我們也不能確定它是不是每一次都是未滿的狀態，如果能留著最好，但是你以這個路線圖往前看，在中路地區這一圈其實需求量非常大，每一次也都是要排隊等很久，本席希望兩個方式，第一個，如果能夠再增加一班，從中路地區或者是從起站的地方再多增加一班，這是一個。第二個，如果是在藝文特區的話能不能再往前一點點，如果來到大興西永安路口或者寶慶路口，這個地方往前一點點也許就可以載滿了，這樣加班車的CP值才會比較高，好不好？另外，關於9023A，我們多增加了7時37分從中正藝文特區出發的班次，但這是機動性的，而且調配方式其實大家拿捏不定，所以有時候有車，有時候沒車，本席希望這個增加的班次可以變常態增班，可以做到嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：委員，這個部分我們可以來協調，剛剛委員所提出的相關建議，我們來跟客運業者協調。"],["萬委員美玲：好，你們再去協調一個事情，5250B現在的狀態是從蘆竹發車以後就直接上高速公路到南崁，能不能夠再繞一點點路，因為在經國路有一個經國轉運站，其實有很多民眾在經國轉運站有搭車的需求，我們只要再往前開一點點，從經國路到經國轉運站，再從有恆街、經國路回來，繞一小段但是可以更便民，可以讓更多人搭乘，這個路線的調整能不能夠跟客運業者來同步協調？"],["陳局長文瑞：我記得5250已經有一部分繞駛到經國轉運站，這個部分我們再來跟業者做一個協調。"],["萬委員美玲：好，以上問題本席希望10天之內有明確的答復，好嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們再跟委員做一個報告。"],["萬委員美玲：最後，再一點點時間，本席過去在總質詢的時候也提過，交通部針對客運大客車駕駛之不足有提出一些方案，其中公共運輸駕駛擴大徵才方案本來是希望能夠招募客運駕駛1,800人、遊覽車駕駛3,000人，你們還提出要把這個方案從113年2月29日延到114年2月，第一個是延時間。第二個，你們還要加碼，補助他在訓練期間生活津貼915元，對嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["萬委員美玲：但是到目前為止，你們只招募到客運駕駛1,031名，遊覽車駕駛125名，整個達成率只有29%，非常不理想，現在距離114年2月不到一年時間，請問次長，這個方案你們有信心可以達成招募4,800名這麼多司機嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員說明，這樣的方案還是需要持續辦理下去，因為委員剛才也特別提到整個駕駛……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你的意思是這個專案時間又會再往後延？"],["陳次長彥伯：到時候時間到了，我們會再來評估是不是要繼續往後延，因為……"],["萬委員美玲：以目前的狀態來看，有可能達成嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：當然要很努力，但是就我們瞭解，目前的駕駛人招募數，我手上有些資料是整體上已經達到一千六百多人，所以其實整體的效率還是有增加的。"],["萬委員美玲：看起來要達標還有困難，但是我們希望要繼續加油，這裡有一個數據，全國客運駕駛人數從108年3月的2萬3,005人，到113年3月是1萬9,012人，總共減少將近4,000人，擴大徵才計畫從112年3月開始執行，可是我們看到司機人數不增反減，從1萬9,165人降到今年1萬9,012人，這個計畫執行以後還反而減少153人。現在整體計畫的執行很困難，但我們希望還是要繼續努力，為了解決公共汽車客運司機短缺的問題，我們是不是能夠借鏡日本的作法，研議引進外籍司機員來彌補我國客運司機荒的問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，引進外籍駕駛牽涉到我國國內勞動力的勞動市場。"],["萬委員美玲：當然，當然，你還要跟勞動部這邊橫向地來研究。"],["陳次長彥伯：就像觀光產業要引進一樣。"],["萬委員美玲：當然、當然。"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我們要跟勞動部相關的諮詢委員會做出我們的評估報告，並跟他們共同討論，就我們瞭解，公路總局跟勞動部等相關單位在5月15日有開過會了，後續我們再看怎麼加速來推動。"],["萬委員美玲：過去部長也清楚，現在新的部長今天就要上任了，大客車、遊覽車司機缺工是一個全國性很嚴重的問題，本席今天提出的所有議題，希望你們能夠用最快的速度在新部長上任之後跟他做報告，然後把可行的解決方案研究出來，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會向部長報告。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員。","接下來請何欣純委員，何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不到。","請徐富癸委員，徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員不到。","請李昆澤委員，李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員不到。","請陳素月委員，陳素月委員、陳素月委員、陳素月委員不到。","請許智傑委員，許智傑委員、許智傑委員、許智傑委員不到。","請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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那能不能再往前一點點如果來到"},{"start":230.374,"end":231.995,"text":"本席希望能不能這一班的增加的班次可以變常態的增班 可以做到嗎"},{"start":260.211,"end":268.521,"text":"委員這個部分我們都來協調就是跟客運業者來這個剛剛委員所做的相關的這個建議的部分我們來跟業者好那再讓你去協調一個5250B那這個5250B現在的狀態當然是從這個盧竹發車以後就直接上高速公路去了到了南崁"},{"start":276.772,"end":300.642,"text":"那能不能夠我們再讓一點點路因為我們知道我們在經國路有一個經國轉運站那那個經國轉運站其實有很多的民眾在那個地方有搭車的需求我們如果只要再往前開一點點從經國路到這個經國轉運站再從永恆街再從經國路回來一小段但是可以更便民可以讓更多人可以搭乘這個路線的調整能不能夠跟客運業者同步的來協調"},{"start":301.783,"end":304.605,"text":"以上本期希望10天之內我們有一個明確的答覆再跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":318.137,"end":336.713,"text":"最後我想在一點點時間我想本席過去在總諮詢的時候也提過我們知道其實交通部針對我們現在大客車的駕駛不足我們有提出一些方案其中的公共運輸駕駛擴大徵才方案本來是希望能夠招募客運駕駛1800人遊覽車駕駛3000人不過呢"},{"start":340.896,"end":356.391,"text":"對﹗對﹗"},{"start":357.192,"end":359.635,"text":"市長請問一下這個方案你有信心可以達成招募4800名這麼多的司機嗎?"},{"start":377.435,"end":378.095,"text":"所以您的意思是說這個專案時間又會再往後延?那以目前的狀態來看有可能達成嗎?"},{"start":397.866,"end":398.287,"text":"看起來要達標還有困難但是我們希望要繼續加油"},{"start":412.483,"end":416.645,"text":"當然,這裡有個數據,全國客運駕駛人數從108年的3月23,005人,到113年3月19,012人,總共減少了將近4,000人。但是擴大增財的計畫從112年的3月開始執行,可是我們看到司機人數不增反減,"},{"start":436.596,"end":459.866,"text":"從19165人降到今年19012人所以這個計畫下去以後還反而減少153人我想整個整體的計畫我知道大家要施行在現在是很困難但我們希望還要繼續努力那麼因此我想為了解決公共汽車客運這個司機短缺的問題我們是不是能夠借盡日本的做法研議引進外籍的司機員來彌補我國客運司機荒的問題"},{"start":464.238,"end":474.622,"text":"跟委員報告引進外籍的這個駕駛這個牽涉到我國國內勞動力的一個勞動市場當然當然就是您還要跟這個勞動部這邊在橫向的來研究嘛觀光產業當然當然所以我們有要跟勞動部相關的諮詢委員會去做出我們的評估報告去跟他們共同討論"},{"start":487.406,"end":504.042,"text":"公路總局大概也跟勞動部等相關單位在5月15號有開過會了後續我看我們怎麼樣來加速的來推動好 那我想這個過去這個部長他也清楚那現在當然我們新的部長今天就要上任了本席希望這個是一個全國性很嚴重的問題這個大客車、遊覽車司機缺工"},{"start":507.745,"end":507.885,"text":"萬美玲議員"}]}},{"id":"152675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5838ec680a60bd6ab10ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e19eca1244ea1315045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"09:33:59 - 09:40:58","影片長度":"00:06:59","會議時間":"2024-05-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部、國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部就「我國汽車自動駕駛系統與電動大客車之產業前景、法規建置、安全風險及發展現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-20","duration":419,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-20T09:40:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-20T09:33:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩陳次長及連署長。"],["主席：有請陳次長及連署長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：次長好、署長好。今天是兩個單位的報告，我看到經濟部的報告有一個2030年客運車輛電動化推動計畫，預訂要在2030年推動1萬1,700輛電動公車上路；而交通部給的資料顯示，包括19個縣市現在陸續投入營運，已領牌的大客車為1,827輛，已核定117輛。這兩個應該是同一個計畫嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，同一個計畫。"],["廖委員先翔：是嘛。請問兩位，按照目前已領牌、包括現在已核定在打造的這117輛，合計1,944輛，看起來2030年好像沒辦法達成1萬1,700輛電動車上路，是不是？這個進度看起來好像是有點嚴重delay，有能力做的一開始都申請了，現在申請的越來越少，到目前只有117輛在核定製作當中，後續可能只會越來越少，如果你們沒有幫忙業者解決一些基礎性問題的話。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我跟委員報告一下，有關可以製造符合國內電巴的製造廠，我們現在正在輔導相關的業者能夠積極的投入，原則上今年預計大概還有一千三百多輛會來申請，所以整體上2030年推動公車全面電動化，我們會積極來辦理。"],["廖委員先翔：我想有時候業者不來申請不一定是錢的問題，我想製造端應該是沒有問題，量能應該是沒有問題，也不一定只有錢的問題，有時候業者可能是對於廠站設置、充電樁的設置，有一些基礎性的問題導致業者沒有意願，包括可能後續維修，他沒有意願來申請，我覺得交通部應該去瞭解更深層的一些原因，而不是單純就把錢丟出來，可能有些跨部會的問題需要交通部來主責、來協助業者才有更高的意願來做汰換，好不好？我覺得這都是正向的，當然這是一開始首次嘗試的政策，有不足的地方再麻煩跨部會一起來加油，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，我想業者在提出申請的時候，我們都會請縣市政府來輔導它，然後提出整體一個……"],["廖委員先翔：瞭解有一些沒有申請的業者，有些業者申請的很多，有些業者就是沒有申請，去瞭解沒有申請的業者，他的原因是什麼，我們協助來輔導。"],["陳次長彥伯：而且我們會特別針對非直轄市的縣市來輔導。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。再討論到自駕的問題，其實我之前也有在我們委員會提到自駕的課題，那天經濟部沒來，我有引述經濟部的一個案例，我們有輔導國內廠商到澳洲去協助在他們的高速公路建置大貨車的自駕系統，其實我當初在委員會就提出來了，我不知道為什麼當初國內在選擇自駕大客車跟大貨車的時候，選擇優先發展大客車，因為大客車的門檻應該是比較高的，大客車的司機除了開車之外，他可能還要處理一些人的問題。乘客如果在車上跌倒或是一些人上面的問題，不是現在自駕系統就能夠解決的，包括我們的大客車在道路行駛，以我新北市來講好了，它可能很多都是在封閉性的道路、可能要在重劃區的道路才有辦法來行駛，如果成功了之後，你沒有辦法把它馬上規模化擴充到全臺灣去營運，我就不相信你在淡水、在哪邊、在台積電成功了，你敢把這些自駕公車開去中和、開去永和，這不可能的嘛！你頂多在臺北市的公車專用道去做，所以它的規模化會有很大的問題。但是大貨車其實沒有這些問題，原則上，我們應該是先從高速公路來推動，因為它是一個封閉型的道路，它所受到的一些包括行人或其他機車的干擾會比較少，包括它也不用處理人的問題，包括它發生故障的時候所面臨到的挑戰也會比較少，我可不可以先請教一下，為什麼當初會先選擇大客車，而不是大貨車來試行？我們明明有這個能力去輔導國外、澳洲高速公路的業者去推動，為什麼國內沒有推動？反而在國內做大客車，而不是大貨車？"],["連署長錦漳：我先跟委員報告一下，這個其實會涉及到一些安全性的問題，因為那時候會先從大客車做，是因為誠如委員講的，大客車運輸的距離比較短，有一些不確定因素比較可以去做控制，尤其我們在一些封閉式的情況下，以短距離運輸，這個不確定因素是可以去控制的。另外，因為高速公路路途長的時候，它有一些不確定因素確實是比較複雜，澳洲是有開放高速公路可以做這樣……"],["廖委員先翔：你們有沒有跟我們交通部討論過？有沒有跟我們高公局討論過？"],["連署長錦漳：有、有、有。"],["廖委員先翔：有嘛！有跟高公局討論過，我們高公局的態度怎麼樣？我們是持一起合作的立場，還是持排斥的態度？"],["連局長錦漳：我們合作、我們合作！"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，如果有一些不確定的風險能夠確定的話，我們是可以合作的，但是現在不確定的風險實在是非常的多，而且那個車輛的性能狀態……"],["廖委員先翔：你都可以在澳洲走，臺灣的高速公路不能走？"],["趙局長興華：那個交通量是不一樣的……"],["廖委員先翔：難不成我們把危險的東西給別人去做？這也不太符合我們臺灣的國際形象，對不對？"],["趙局長興華：國內的幾乎在飽和之下……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，其實我之前在交委會也有提出來，希望我們的大貨車自駕系統能夠在高速公路去試行──也不是試行，而是啟動相關的計畫，上次只有說啟動，你們也承諾了，可不可以給我一個時間表？我後續會做一個追蹤，有沒有辦法給我一個時間表？你們哪時候可以開始啟動跨部會協商？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們再跟經濟部協調一下啦，然後再把……"],["廖委員先翔：今年好不好？我給你們寬一點，今年？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們先三個月的時間研議一下後續如何推動或把推動的構想提供給委員參考。"],["廖委員先翔：好，三個月內給我後續的一些規劃期程，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是、是。"],["廖委員先翔：這個東西會列入紀錄，我後續再追蹤，再麻煩次長，謝謝署長，謝謝各位，還有局長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝先翔委員。再來請萬美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-13","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","廖先翔","萬美玲","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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這個進度看起來好像是有點嚴重delay啊有能力做的一開始都申請了嘛那現在申請的越來越少到現在目前這117輛在核定製作當中後續可能只會越來越少如果你們沒有幫忙業者解決一些基礎性的問題的話"},{"start":81.069,"end":107.95,"text":"對我跟委員報告一下就是現在場就是說可以製造這個符合國內電巴的這樣的一個製造廠我們現在正在輔導相關的業者能夠積極的投入那原則上今年預計大概還有1300多輛會來申請所以整體上2030推動這個公車全面電動化這個我們會積極來辦理好我想有時候業者他不來申請不一定是錢的問題不一定是"},{"start":110.453,"end":135.998,"text":"製造 我想製造端應該是沒有問題這量的應該是沒有問題那也不一定只有錢的問題而是業者他可能在廠商的設置、充電中央的設置他有一些企圖性的問題導致業者他沒有意願包括可能後續回銷他沒有意願來申請我覺得我們交通部應該要去了解更深層的一些原因而不是說單純就是把錢丟出來可能有一些跨部會的問題需要我們交通部來主責來協助我們的業者有更高的意願來做汰換"},{"start":137.118,"end":164.485,"text":"我覺得都是正向的那當然就是第一開始首次嘗試的一個政策嘛那有不足的地方再麻煩我們跨部會一起來加油好不好我想業者在提出申請的時候我們都會請縣市政府來輔導他然後他提出整體的一個對瞭解他們為什麼有一些沒有申請的業者有些業者申請很多嘛有些業者就是沒有申請我去瞭解沒有申請業者他的原因是什麼我們來協助來輔導而且我們會特別針對非直轄市的部分縣市來輔導"},{"start":165.945,"end":183.695,"text":"好 謝謝那這個在討論到自駕的問題其實我之前也有在我們委員會有提到自駕的課題那一天經濟部沒來那天我有引述我們經濟部的一個案例我們有輔導我們國內的廠商到澳洲去協助澳洲在他們的高速公路建置這個大貨車的一個自駕系統"},{"start":187.637,"end":193.441,"text":"那其實我當初在委員會就提出來了其實我們國內在選 我不知道為什麼當初我們國內在選擇自駕大客車跟大貨車的時候選擇優先發展大客車因為大客車的門檻應該是比較高的因為大客車的司機除了開車之外他可能還要處理一些人的問題乘客如果在車上跌倒"},{"start":209.013,"end":209.633,"text":"廖先翔"},{"start":231.423,"end":231.643,"text":"廖先翔"},{"start":249.072,"end":267.463,"text":"抱歉 更正大貨車其實它沒有這些問題它原則上我們應該是借同高速公路來推動那因為它是一個封閉型的道路它所受到的一些包括行人或其他機車所受到的干擾會比較少那包括它也不用處理人的問題包括它可能發生故障的時候"},{"start":268.263,"end":285.232,"text":"他所會面臨到的挑戰也會比較少那我可不可以先請教一下為什麼當初會先選擇大客車而不是大貨車來試行我們明明有這個能力去輔導國外澳洲高速公路的業者去推動那為什麼國內沒有推動反而在國內坐大貨車而不是大貨車"},{"start":289.817,"end":310.115,"text":"這個其實這會涉及到一些安全性的問題因為那時候會先做從大客車做事因為大客車程式委員講的他運輸的距離比較短有一些因素不確定因素是比較可以去做控制也只是在我們在一些封閉式的情況下在短距離在運輸這個不確定因素是可以去控制的"},{"start":310.555,"end":327.869,"text":"另外一則因為那個高速公路它有一些路途長的時候它有一些不確定因素確實是比較複雜那澳洲是有開放高速公路是可以做這樣你們有沒有跟我們交通部討論過有沒有跟我們高空局討論過有嗎有有有有有嘛有跟我們高空局討論過那我們高空局的態度怎麼樣我們是持一起合作的立場還是持排斥的態度我們合作我們合作"},{"start":341.577,"end":357.259,"text":"跟委員報告如果說我們一些不確定的風險能夠確定的話我們是可以合作的但是現在不確定的風險實在是非常的多而且他那個車輛的一個性能狀態你都可以在澳洲走台灣高速公路不能走那個交通量是不一樣的難不成我們把危險的東西給別人"},{"start":358.46,"end":387.823,"text":"去做這個也不太符合我們台灣的國際形象嘛我們國內的是在幾乎在飽和之下好沒關係那我之前其實有交委會也有提出來希望我們的大貨車的自駕系統能夠在我們高速公路去做一個呃試行嘛也不是試行就是啟動相關的計畫那當上次只有說啟動嘛你們也承諾了那可不可以給我一個時間表我們後期會做一個隨中有沒有辦法有人給我一個時間表你們哪時候可以開始啟動跨部會的來協商"},{"start":391.867,"end":416.902,"text":"我想委員我們再跟經濟部協調一下然後再把今年好不好今年我給你們寬一點今年我想我們先三個月的時間研議一下吧後續如何推動或推動的構想提供給委員參考三個月內那給我後續的一些規劃的啟程好不好那這個東西會列入紀錄嗎那我就要回家去追蹤好再麻煩次長謝謝各位我們局長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d5835ec96dea78311a48ccf986ae542d7286b17e17f29c54f7e1b057e84e5f10c5cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:25:04 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社長 針對目前我們要發展所謂的電動大客車產業本席是給予肯定的 因為我目前接到最新的調查報告 全國有87%的民眾認為無碳、減碳的電動車產業在台灣是有必要的 但是本席會從幾個比較"},{"start":40.615,"end":60.409,"text":"算是比較基礎的一些方面來去請教處長根據市長在裡面我第一個根據這份報告裡面我剛剛看到的是說我們跟日本的這個電動車公司有合作那也提到說我們要設廠在巴拉圭"},{"start":62.007,"end":82.576,"text":"請問一下我記得在上面不知道是經濟部的報告還是交通部的報告我們要跟日本的電動車公司要合作然後設廠在巴拉圭然後要做有關電動校車的製造那本席就很好奇為什麼要設在巴拉圭呢請經濟部來做說明好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":86.104,"end":105.716,"text":"跟日本合作是日本合作市場在日本巴拉圭只要是在中南美洲的市場所以兩個市場是不太一樣的那委員請問一下第一點因為我們知道如果我們講是電動大客車的產業那這個產業鏈其實製造很多工作機會那有沒有計畫目前你們輔導有沒有計畫哪一家廠商把這個電動車產業的工作機會留在台灣呢"},{"start":109.978,"end":130.047,"text":"現在剛才已經有跟國務委員報告華德那個華德跟承諺目前都是在台灣這邊已經除了原來的廠又額外再投資了已經投資200多億200多億那目前我想知道的是製造多少的工作機會地點是在哪裡而且實質上未來可以製造幾起工作機會既然你今天報告是大客車產業"},{"start":131.368,"end":158.34,"text":"大產業鏈的形成畢竟最主要除了本身製造的產品要符合我們社會上使用之外更現實的是工作機會的製造我們台灣一向對於汽車產業的發展其實我們有很大的落後比起日本、韓國我們其實甚至後來在大陸我們在汽車產業上面有很大的落後我想這個是我們全國國人心中的痛那現在變成電動車產業的時候本席剛好去國外走了"},{"start":158.76,"end":178.337,"text":"最近去國外走了一趟發現說其他國家的電動車產業也好不管大客車還是小客車甚至自動駕駛都比本國知道的東西還先進甚至我直接我不會言我記得我四年前的時候我去我去工研院參觀了我們所謂的自動駕駛那自動駕駛那個時候居然沒有辦法上路的原因是因為坡度不足"},{"start":179.378,"end":196.171,"text":"波度的計算不足所以變成是說他們只能在公園院裡面做適用的自動車駕駛可是本期才在一個月之前到其他地方其他國家去看所謂的自動車駕駛的時候發現他們不但有不但波度的問題可以解決甚至還可以直接上路"},{"start":197.112,"end":212.946,"text":"本席會認為說這樣來講不管這個技術是哪一國的技術本席認為我們國內是落後的那我也想請問目前以交通部跟經濟部你們現在做法是對於自動車駕駛自動駕駛也好還是電動客車也好你們現在的態度是什麼什麼時候我們可以看到上路的電動客車"},{"start":214.187,"end":243.567,"text":"我們現在為什麼會問這問題最現實是現在沒有人想當司機真的沒有人想當司機本身因為這件事情則則是公路總局跟交通部特地針對他們司機的福利特地要加強但是我現在看到還是沒有什麼人願意來當司機因為人家因為大家會認為司機這個工作很辛苦而且會被人家責難的時候那自動駕駛勢必是趨勢請問經濟部甚至交通部有什麼應對的有什麼因為有這個新的科技有這新的技術而應對目前就業市場"},{"start":244.667,"end":264.835,"text":"我先回答經濟部這一部分其實剛才委員講的投資剛才我講的是整車成德華園已經在臺中彰化屏東投資另外其實在零組件部分在荷花鴻海在荷花投資這個投資有將近700億主要是做電池這一部分已經有創造國內企業圈另外剛才談到自動駕駛其實目前"},{"start":265.655,"end":289.758,"text":"在高雄那一部分在雅灣已經有在做自動駕駛的一個試驗院因為這一部分技術確實是陳副委員講的還不是很成熟另外在台南的綠能沙崙科技園區也有在做這樣的試範運行所以自駕這一部分我們經濟部是有投入一些科技經費在協助廠商在做自動駕駛這一部分那目前都已經在做一些試範運行"},{"start":292.321,"end":314.458,"text":"那聚焦交通部你們對於本席剛剛的問題怎麼答詢呢?這個部分我跟委員報告一下 裡面有兩塊是這個電動大客車跟這個電動小客車的部分那第一塊就是說 剛剛有報告就是說 針對自駕的部分 那目前是優先聚焦希望能夠在電動大客車 就是公車這個部分能夠讓他這一個可行"},{"start":314.818,"end":328.947,"text":"那我也跟委員報告就是說裡面有16案這個之前申請這個沙盒實驗其中有12案是屬於這一個公司的部分那只是說現在沙盒實驗就是說雖然是某種程度之下但是人還市級還是要在這個上面"},{"start":330.788,"end":355.521,"text":"另外一個部分的話像剛剛這個林沛祥有提到這個台積電跟在這個欄卡他已經有實際這個都已經有實際運貨部分那另外我們公共總局在台61也有個中巴這個自駕實際運行的一個部分那針對自駕的這一塊的一個部分的話其實跟委員報告就是說目前大概系統都還在發展當中那基本上人都還要某種程度的這個monitor"},{"start":356.281,"end":382.85,"text":"好 謝謝我這邊要特地提醒因為時間關係我最近最後面提醒一件事情為什麼我把自動駕駛跟電動大客車這兩件事情拿出來講因為我們知道現在有很多公車路線基本上是不賺錢的因為不賺錢所以他們沒有人要駕駛而現在最現實就是說現在電動大客車對於偏鄉尤其是有多坡度的像在新竹新竹的這個原住民聚落也好還是在基隆有些山區也好"},{"start":383.49,"end":383.61,"text":"林沛祥議員"},{"start":405.769,"end":406.069,"text":"請你們好好研擬"},{"start":428.119,"end":452.474,"text":"好 謝謝委員我補充一句話就是有關那個剛才委員講到電巴的推動電動巴士其實電動巴士我們推動就是希望他要智慧化所以剛才委員特別提到的自駕的這樣的我們也在電動巴士的發展的過程裡頭對於這個業者能夠符合自駕相關的一個法令我們也給予這個相關經費的輔助來輔導讓他這樣的一個電動巴士朝著智慧化來努力"},{"start":453.274,"end":480.591,"text":"這長因為今天時間不夠不然我可能會問你們說你們的車路線圖圖雲這五個方面你們現在做好哪些這其實每一個都是很專業的計算跟AI方面的計算但是老實講我看到的台灣目前是這個每個針對這方面的技術都是各自為證其實讓本席非常的擔憂因為我們這樣子我們一定趕不上人家先不要講說我們有沒有充電樁先不要講說我們有沒有其他的人來開車就跟針對這點上面的技術其實我認為我們是落後的"},{"start":481.271,"end":481.531,"text":"主席指教還是"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}