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那本市議程邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況．並備質詢現在進行報告發言時間5分鐘首先請法務部政部長報告"},{"start":1973.796,"end":1999.881,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生各位同仁大家早安那今天非常榮幸能夠應貴委員會的邀請率法務部團隊報告業務的概況那感謝大院委先進的指導跟支持那請代表法務部全體同仁至最高最崇高的一個敬迎跟謝意那以下我就責要來報告進行指教"},{"start":2000.681,"end":2014.96,"text":"第一就是我們近期內的一個重要業務的辦理情形那第一就是提升反毒的一個成效那我們推動新世代反毒的策略達到抑制毒品災犯降虐毒品新生的雙重目標執行0305發掘大碼適用黑素專的溯源"},{"start":2019.644,"end":2032.869,"text":"：棄讀到今年的4月子沒有就是超級搖頭犯的相關的死亡的一個案例了那再就是落實懲詐的一個周圍那嚴刑詐欺犯罪配合行政院及其原理的詐欺危害"},{"start":2033.909,"end":2059.652,"text":"反對違反法治條例打造專法外我們應用的新興科技跟網路犯罪的一個興起眼裡的科技專查及保障法通訊保障及監察法及洗錢防治法等打造三法那再就是推動司法改革建制檢查機關查扣虛擬資產監管平台啟用司法聯盟面共同來一個驗證平台"},{"start":2060.373,"end":2074.759,"text":"那再就是維護社會治安方面的打擊不法﹐妨害綠能產業發展的一個犯罪﹐打擊黑幫的一個幫派查緝囤積崩台的一個犯行﹐保障民眾實安查過不法手的維護被害人的一個求償權利"},{"start":2076.96,"end":2093.295,"text":"建構聯能政府推動國家廉政建設行動方案提升貪瀆案件定罪率舉辦透明經質獎推動機關採購廉政平台、慈安平台、事辦企業服務的廉政平台"},{"start":2093.835,"end":2109.33,"text":"再就矯正革新的一個方面推動本土化的假釋審查機制經濟外一間的一個機制推動自主間外作業研理高齡收容人的一個廚藝完成行後強制治療"},{"start":2110.03,"end":2110.41,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2129.242,"end":2149.992,"text":"研修離分法制的一個規定調解成立建樹也創了新高那深化執行成效提升行政執行的績效我們目前累積已經增企6561億餘員聯合拍面多元的公開透明執行致歉的一個大戶關懷弱勢的一個族群"},{"start":2151.072,"end":2166.623,"text":"提倡人權保障．加強兩國的宣傳．多元宣導人權的搜查課．辦理線上人權的引轉．強化司法互助．根據國際司法互助．強化國際司法的交流"},{"start":2167.363,"end":2189.795,"text":"跨國追反立法院建採過弊案的犯罪部罰所得,跨國合作移交及接返受刑人,每經經調查的作為,維護國家安全,防止洩漏國家機密,貫徹國土保育,強化企業疏通,防止洗錢犯罪,防堵駭客的攻擊,"},{"start":2191.055,"end":2215.245,"text":"那打造資訊量能那我們也建制開示電子捐贈申請平台建制扣案毒品資訊線上的交換平台來借接功能的一個建制推動被害人形式訴訟資訊獲知平台等那我們也做這樣的一個打造的資訊的一個效能那關於未來的一個施政的一個重點"},{"start":2216.465,"end":2238.484,"text":"那第一就是我們落實五打七安的一個政策維護社會安全那現在科技網路的犯罪那網路的一個炸雞電信資安包括金融不法即興犯罪打擊綠能食安黑道組織犯罪這個壓制重大犯罪這些犯罪是我們要嚴加來"},{"start":2241.607,"end":2243.487,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2267.833,"end":2289.411,"text":"強化保護服務,完善溫暖有感的柔性司法接軌國際廉政趨勢,建構廉政合作平台推動科技化執行措施,提升行政執行效能本部推動各項司法,為民的法務工作,獲得具體成效"},{"start":2291.954,"end":2304.054,"text":"展望未來我們也是依據總統治國的一個理念在行政院長的帶領下我們落實行政院的一個施政方針那以上我們敬請各位委員能夠持續督導指教謝謝"},{"start":2306.578,"end":2330.516,"text":"好,謝謝牧長、機關代表。報告完畢。相關書面報告內容,請各位參閱並列入公報記錄。好,那現在我們開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘,要時得延長2分鐘。非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘,並不再延長。上午10點30分截止發言登記。現在請登記第一位的黃總召發言"},{"start":2341.589,"end":2342.533,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請部長請政部長"},{"start":2348.716,"end":2376.596,"text":"部長在檢察界資歷非常的完整之前也當過廉政署署長我個人對你有很高的期待我相信全體國人對你也有很高的期待因為您剛接部長的業務我想總是需要一些時間能夠熟悉所以今天請教你的問題在你目前準備好的程度範圍內回答就可以了"},{"start":2377.717,"end":2402.396,"text":"第一個是賴清德總統在520的就職演說的時候他說司法改革要繼續做下去我想這絕對沒有問題只不過說從賴清德總統他選舉的過程或者是在他就職演說的內容老實說我看不到比較具體的內容到底是什麼就是說賴清德總統他想要做的司法改革"},{"start":2403.618,"end":2416.714,"text":"到底是什麼以您在法務部部長的這個位置當中我今天看到了法務部的業務報告這個業務報告過去的不關您的事因為你還沒有就任部長"},{"start":2418.109,"end":2433.142,"text":"那未來的部分我有看到說未來策進的作為那這個是未來施政的重點這個是您上任以後所決定的還是上任之前原書就準備好了是"},{"start":2435.915,"end":2437.375,"text":"那既然政策有延續性我們接下來就進一步具體的請教"},{"start":2460.478,"end":2486.11,"text":"我們在缺少者百物法等了非常久最新司法法制委員會已經排審了那但是現在都只有委員辦沒有行政院辦那我的了解是說我們在聯合國反貪腐公約第二次國家報告也就是在2022年4月所公布的這份報告2022年4月那個時候您是廉政署署長嗎是"},{"start":2487.731,"end":2505.046,"text":"那聯合國反貪腐公約應該是由聯政署所負責彙整的我的理解沒有錯吧我在2024年第二次國家報告我應該是離開聯政署了我應該是離開 正好離開第一次國家報告的時候您在嗎"},{"start":2505.843,"end":2529.694,"text":"第一次國家報告的時候我在因為在政權交接之前應該是黃次長我有請教過他就是說就公司部門催少者保護過去蔡英文政府早期承諾的包括聯合國反貪腐工業國家報告所寫的都是要制定公司合併的催少者保護法"},{"start":2530.376,"end":2551.127,"text":"但到2023年的時候政策有些調整似乎要把私部門先排開做行政指導那這樣子的一個政策的轉向賴清德政府是不是延續我講的比較具體一點崔少哲保護法制站在目前新政府的立場是指定公部門還是公私部門合併還是還沒有決定"},{"start":2554.008,"end":2582.146,"text":"他那時候是第二次國家報告的確那時候的那個接避者保護法的立法的策略是公私合併版那本來是公部門先行後來是改成公私合併版沒有錯不過我記得那個第二次的國家報告他那個策略實要是在強調立法的進度我們希望說接避者保護法能夠持續的一個對阿但是就很遺憾嘛立法的進度就是還沒送來立法院嘛政權就交接了嘛"},{"start":2582.844,"end":2586.547,"text":"法制委員會以後就胎死腹中了 這個歷程我很清楚"},{"start":2602.06,"end":2617.561,"text":"因為那時候我花了很多時間在這個法案上但沒有關係今天就重點回答就好了就吹哨者保護法目前賴清德政府的政策立場是公私合併要立法還是子立公部門還是這個政策還沒有決定"},{"start":2619.07,"end":2643.095,"text":"這個目前那個戒閉責保護網民送到行政院來審查中那最後次一個開會審查日應該是在我的資料是今年的2月23日那現在 審查完畢沒有還在審查中那現在接手的政委是哪一位之前是羅秉成現在接手的是哪一位林明星政務委員是林明星接的是所以這件事情還沒有定案嗎"},{"start":2644.265,"end":2669.278,"text":"我想這個還要混成大家的一個意見那我先表達我的期待啦我不曉得行政院版送來的時候來得及來不及但因為這件事情延宕太久了司法法制委員會未必會等行政院版送來所以可能要麻煩部長跟林明新政委稍微協調溝通一下速度可能要快一點因為司法法制委員會已經排審了"},{"start":2670.719,"end":2692.612,"text":"這個是國人期待已久但是也跳票非常久的法案第二個部分是棄保潛逃罪新的政府有沒有要延續推動目前還是在行政院在審查法務部也送到行政院這一次是最近的一個審查是在3月6日我們也是持續來推動"},{"start":2695.726,"end":2697.308,"text":"反案司法公正罪會不會持續推動?"},{"start":2714.048,"end":2738.843,"text":"有啦我跟部長保證在聯合國反貪腐報告裡面第二次國家報告裡面全部都有那但是可能還是要拜託部長要注意一下你們工作的進度這部分我沒持續這主要是司法妨礙公正罪章最好是棄保潛逃罪還有司法關說罪還有蔑視法庭罪嘛是嗎"},{"start":2739.503,"end":2740.764,"text":"本部持續推動這一立場,我想這個是沒有改變。"},{"start":2764.383,"end":2787.878,"text":"我們一定都有善意也願意給你時間所以今天大概是把幾個重要的方向先確定一下部長未來在推動施政的時候你基本上面新的政府的政策立場那今天是善意的希望部長說這一些事情推動的立法進度可能動作要快一點因為從2017年世界國會議到現在7年過去了吧時間夠久了"},{"start":2793.681,"end":2818.411,"text":"從2017年施改國事會議有結論到現在2024年7年當然過去這7年沒有順利的把法案交出來這個是上一任政府的事情上一任部長的事情也不是你的責任我不會把這個責任加在你身上但是既然剛剛你也說了賴清德總統在推動司法改革的時候政策是延續性的"},{"start":2818.831,"end":2819.612,"text":"最後有一件事情我想"},{"start":2843.038,"end":2867.183,"text":"可能法務部需要做一個重新的盤點所謂重新的盤點就是我們有一個偵查不公開的辦法上一次我在執行上一任的法務部部長的時候我把偵查不公開你們每一季每一季各地檢數全部都要做報告出來我把報告看了以後我發現只有數字"},{"start":2868.703,"end":2883.474,"text":"沒有什麼具體的內容那現在我今天質詢您絕對不是想要去追究你在北檢檢察長任內的事情那已經是過去了現在今天你是部長就做部長的事"},{"start":2884.755,"end":2899.904,"text":"但我是要用這些例子讓部長知道說您就任部長以後可能對於過去的地檢署在執行掙扎不公開的這件事情上面是不是有切實做到以及"},{"start":2901.195,"end":2918.322,"text":"您當過檢察長應該知道每個在哪裡怎麼樣真正能夠落實因為這件事情真的太嚴重了真的太嚴重了我們地檢署偵辦的內容常常成為某個特定的週刊獨家報導的內容部長你不會覺得很扯嗎"},{"start":2919.469,"end":2921.732,"text":"我再說明一次就是我今天絕對相信你說你會去落實"},{"start":2941.618,"end":2966.384,"text":"但要去落實這件事情可能要展現在具體的行動上以及實際的成果上這樣您同意嗎我會要求那個我會要求還是要嚴守那個發言人的一個制度是是是好最後最後可能要重新的去檢討你們每個地檢署在處理有關與偵查不公開收到投訴"},{"start":2968.078,"end":2985.89,"text":"收到檢舉或者是你們自己主動發現的時候有可能有違反偵查不公開然後以及最後的結果處理的結果是怎麼樣那個報告呈現的形式可能有必要再進一步具體化細緻化而不是只有一個表格只有一個數字你認同嗎"},{"start":2986.57,"end":2986.77,"text":"接下來有請選委員發會質詢"},{"start":3032.536,"end":3059.588,"text":"主席有請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早很抱歉今天我看很多委員大家都睡眼惺忪沒什麼精神不過今天對我們司法法制委員會來講這個我們政部長今天第一次到我們委員會來這個我想是也是一個非常對我們來講是一個非常重要的一個會議"},{"start":3061.638,"end":3079.096,"text":"所以這個過去部長在過去10年裡面在我們這個司法單位的表現我想大家這個有的成績我想在社會以及大家都有相當的肯定所以在這裡也對"},{"start":3080.629,"end":3102.045,"text":"也自然而然的會對部長這個在未來在這個法務部的這個相關施政上面會有相當大的期待所以今天這個我想看這個我們看到我相信所有我們司法法制委員會的委員今天在第一次都對部長大概是應該都是"},{"start":3104.039,"end":3122.23,"text":"這個期許大於這個質問因為這個大家都會希望說能夠信任新政也希望說能夠在我們過去看到的這個在相關法務部的相關業務上面的一些問題都會希望說今天能夠提早來跟部長來做溝通不過"},{"start":3122.93,"end":3142.916,"text":"在這個就相關的業務就教部長之前好像有一個比較我個人現在認為說一個未來可能對部長來講跟我們法務部有雙重相關的一個法條來跟部長來討論部長不知道有沒有注意我們昨天"},{"start":3144.593,"end":3159.017,"text":"跟這個上禮拜五在立法院大家在院會裡面從打成一團到昨天的這個冗長的這個這個議事進行所通過的有關立法院職權行使法第25條有關這個"},{"start":3163.126,"end":3192.032,"text":"所謂這個藐視國會的這個相關的這些規定我想部長不知道有沒有進行了解這部分我有了解有了解嗎包括昨天所惡讀昨天在沒有沒有經過討論之下惡讀通過的條文部長了解嗎這個這個藐視國會這我有了解有了解嗎那還有另外一個部分這昨天是一個部分立法院執行司法是一個部分還有未來可能在禮拜五或是現在目前已經排案但是還沒有審查的關於刑法"},{"start":3193.442,"end":3218.415,"text":"的這個141條之一的這個修正案部長也有了解嗎?是有齁好因為這部份跟部長有雙重相關啦齁第一個就是因為你就是接受質詢的對象啦齁所以不管今天不要說你是法務部啦齁你是農業部也是一樣這事情就跟部長會是相關的因為你們就是就是幾乎就是來接受立法院質詢最頻繁的人物啦齁那這個所以"},{"start":3220.583,"end":3230.542,"text":"相關的規定我想部長你一定要非常的了解這是第一重相關第二重相關就是未來假設修法按照國民黨跟民眾黨的版本通過的話未來這個相關的"},{"start":3233.513,"end":3260.528,"text":"的所謂藐視國會罪的罪者在刑法裡面不管是什麼部的部長最後移送也是移送到你們法務部對不對應該移送到檢察機關才對檢察機關嘛就是移送到檢察機關來也是你們也是跟這個部長也是這個有罪到所以我說你有相同的相關第一個是你個人部長身份接受質詢的身份第二個是你們未來就是這個法條的主管機關這其實就是主管機關是"},{"start":3262.566,"end":3280.611,"text":"所以我就跟你看好這相關的我們通過的這個第25條有關質詢有關這個所謂表示國會的相關規定第一個部分在昨天通過的第25條所以二讀通過的啦二讀啦昨天二讀的第25條第一項說質詢之答覆不得超過質詢範圍之外並不得反質詢"},{"start":3285.015,"end":3310.285,"text":"這條部長,你說你有了解,你應該知道有這個二十五條提案這些的內容你知道嘛,那我就要請教部長,因為我真的翻遍我自己也是念法律的,不過我翻遍所有法條,我對於這個反質詢這三個字我實在不曉得法律的定義是什麼,是不是在這裡要請部長一錘定音啊,因為所有部長都要在旁邊看啊什麼樣叫做反質詢啊反質詢這東西在法律上面沒有定義啊"},{"start":3311.718,"end":3337.598,"text":"我問委員說委員早安今天吃飽了沒有這算不算反質詢呢我說委員剛才你問的問題有沒有聽清楚能夠請你再說一遍嗎這算反質詢嗎啊這大家法律上面沒有定義反質詢所以大家一定要仰望我們法務部啦法務部來做一個解釋到底什麼是反質詢來部長請你告訴我們所有的公務人員因為刑法他們的所提出來刑法第141條之一是規範所有的公務員"},{"start":3341.348,"end":3363.665,"text":"所以要請部長現在告訴所有這些我們惶惶不可終日的這些公務員什麼叫做反質詢這個條文的內容齁那我想他構成要件他構成要件你要解釋啊你要解釋構成要件那我想這個構成要件我們會來再做一個解釋在反質詢內容因為如何去界定這個一個反質詢的一個目前有嗎目前的法律裡面有關反質詢的"},{"start":3365.543,"end":3393.247,"text":"的、的、的定義嗎?當然這個、這個要、要制定這個苗式國安政客立法院的一個職權那這個法案不是法務部提出來的齁我知道我知道所以但是未、但是未來未來就是、就是當這、當、當這個案件就是法務部要做解釋啦那我想這個我們內容我們會在整個反質詢的這個內容裡面你們未來會研議啦會研議會研議會研議的意思就是說現在完全不曉得啦"},{"start":3393.567,"end":3418.477,"text":"立法院通過一個莫名其妙的要我們這個法務部來研議什麼東西叫做反質詢齁到底這個立法的意旨在哪裡這個好像也搞不清楚啦齁那這個反質詢目前他們這個法草案裡面反質詢是跟你部長有關跟公務人員有關但是他是罰還啦齁他沒有刑責啦齁刑責的部分有齁刑責部分141條就是所謂做虛偽不實是陳述對不對部長"},{"start":3422.574,"end":3435.186,"text":"目前我們刑法裡面有關虛偽不實的陳述目前有相關的規定目前刑法裡面就是一個違證罪對違證罪對違證罪在168條違證罪有虛偽不實的陳述所以那在他們現在所提出來的說公務人員與立法院聽證包括聽證包括質詢"},{"start":3448.791,"end":3457.419,"text":"為虛偽陳述者處一年以下有期徒刑、拘役或二十萬以下罰金這部分配合這個立法院執宣刑事法"},{"start":3458.359,"end":3483.978,"text":"的第25條第9項說政府人員與立法院接受質詢為虛偽陳述者依法追溯及刑事責任所謂依法追溯就是要依這一條法嘛對不對部長是不是這樣假設假設禮拜五刑法第141條之一假設啦假設沒有通過那這25條這個立法院直接刑事法第25條第9項到時候移送到那邊你們要怎麼辦"},{"start":3485.644,"end":3505.2,"text":"這個移送到地檢署我想檢察官會依照這個來做一個做什麼做一個就是假設141號之一的藐視國會罪並沒有通過但是我們立法院執行刑事法通過了沒通過的話那地檢署就會不起訴處分嘛因為沒有這個裁法沒有這個處罰沒有這個因為我們這個法律還是要三讀總統公佈的這才是法律嘛"},{"start":3512.466,"end":3526.523,"text":"這個這個未來齁未來立法院假設移送的案件到我們地檢署說哪一個官員做不實質陳述所謂不實質陳述的認定他有沒有主觀的要件有沒有客觀的要件"},{"start":3527.895,"end":3556.063,"text":"那這部分檢察官會依法處理因為檢察那個刑法是罪行法定主義一定要三讀然後總統公佈才有成為那個而且有法定的這個檢察官才會依照這個來做那請問部長目前除了除了國民黨跟民眾黨要通過的這個藐視國會罪之外我們目前的刑法裡面有藐視什麼有哪一些有哪一些課題被藐視是有會判罪的有定定在目前刑法裡面的"},{"start":3557.7,"end":3579.89,"text":"這部分是沒有沒有嗎沒有也就除了國會以外你包括警察也是你要侮辱他才有對不對有沒有侮辱警察罪對不對這侮辱公務員對侮辱公務員侮辱警察罪公務員跟警察是你要侮辱他才有罪國會不是喔你不用侮辱不用到侮辱你只要藐視看不起就有罪勒"},{"start":3583.464,"end":3603.833,"text":"所以這個齁未來齁今天這部長在這裡齁其實跟部長講因為這個目前還在立法過程中啦那也不是你們法務部所提出來的法案啦齁但是未來如果通過了那就是很抱歉部長你就是雙重相關啦雙重相關啦齁你這邊你們這部裡面要針對這個法律的要件要及早進行因應齁這第一個第二個"},{"start":3606.864,"end":3629.831,"text":"昨天引起我們北北基這個地區許多的家長人心惶惶的有關殺人未遂的在監護中的案件的逃犯目前在北北基流竄了包括很多學校都已經停甚至就暫停對外開放了"},{"start":3631.64,"end":3659.635,"text":"請問部長目前追緝的情形如何目前在通緝中在通緝中對通緝中那個第一時間就有通報通報我知道在通緝中那目前掌握的狀況呢能不能讓社會大家了解一下是我想我們檢察官會全力要求整個我們司法警察機關全力來查緝然後以安那個那個那個讓社會目前目前這樣子我們我們這樣子所謂在監護中的逃逸逃逸的案件目前我們有沒有統計"},{"start":3661.735,"end":3677.312,"text":"目前我沒有這個資料那我想委員如果要我們可以事後再跟委員來來呈報這些的這個部分要讓社會了解就是相關你們相關的這樣子的每年每年因為這些都是在在這個執行前實施的監護嘛對不對"},{"start":3678.733,"end":3684.438,"text":"這個案件我記不清楚對,行前的監護案件在行前在監護中可以逃逸造成社會上這麼大的恐慌這部分我想法務部在相關的這些SOP以及相關的這些我們的執行監護過程的這些疏漏我覺得部長你要加以檢討現在剛上任對你期許希望你能夠加以檢討不要讓這樣案件因為這樣案件確實造成"},{"start":3705.194,"end":3724.098,"text":"你看昨天造成的這個社會的這些人心恐慌齁這個就是我們法務部的責任好不好還是對部長很高的期許啦齁我們希望說未來未來幾年內齁我們部長能夠展現過去在這個司法界裡面的這個這個相關的這樣子的成績齁能夠再讓國人齁對於我們這個這個法務部齁能夠有更高的評價與期待齁謝謝謝謝沈委員謝謝鄭部長"},{"start":3736.789,"end":3746.958,"text":"接下來有請林委員施名繼續好謝謝主席請我們鄭部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":3752.346,"end":3766.085,"text":"委員早部長我想我也先恭喜你行官上任那法務部是個重擔那當然也期望部長能夠承擔這個重任能夠任重道遠"},{"start":3767.489,"end":3780.093,"text":"那我首先請教部長就是說馬來總統在520就職典禮上面說就是期待治安更好那他也會積極的打擊黑金槍毒和詐騙"},{"start":3782.233,"end":3803.8,"text":"那行政院會在5月9號就通過了打詐專法我看內政部他是表示說也示警他說現在詐欺人在高原期啊所以我第一個問題要交交部長打詐專法未來當然已經送到我們這個立法院來這個準備來立法"},{"start":3804.82,"end":3827.05,"text":"打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法通過之後：打造專法"},{"start":3833.573,"end":3849.506,"text":"我想這個整個高原期我們在因為現在已經把那個詐團的那些的一些的以前我們都是查車手是沒錯溯源斷根現在已經打到那個整個一個比較上手主管核心的一個部分"},{"start":3849.986,"end":3850.126,"text":"主席"},{"start":3880.226,"end":3906.456,"text":"部長我聽您做這樣的一個說明那當然我也對您對詐騙的這一塊未來如何來打詐呢我相信你對這個業務你也蠻了解的所以我也期待您能夠做出很好的成績那另外就是說這個報宅說您是賴清德總統所指派的所以我也請教一下那賴清德總統對您的期待是什麼"},{"start":3907.455,"end":3908.235,"text":"總統指派"},{"start":3924.201,"end":3925.502,"text":"另外我想看今天您的業務報告"},{"start":3947.421,"end":3966.54,"text":"那這個業報當然您剛上任剛才黃國昌委員也有說好像這個跟那個過去我們陳錫祥部長來做業務報告的那一份也沒有多大的一個差異那整個業報就是複製貼上所以本席想請教部長"},{"start":3968.061,"end":3978.348,"text":"這份報告的全部你都掌握了嗎?因為你講得非常多,寫得非常詳盡。但是我認為最重要的"},{"start":3980.077,"end":3999.166,"text":"業報只是一個政策說明就是你未來要如何的去落實執行讓我們看到成果這個是最重要的我總把法務部的所有的業務範圍都全部在今天的業務報告都去把重點全部都講出來但是未來要如何來做"},{"start":4000.843,"end":4014.634,"text":"讓國人對法務部有信心這點我想才是最重要的所以部長那您認為整個業報那麼多範圍那麼多那您認為您最重要您想去加強的是哪個部分"},{"start":4015.714,"end":4036.826,"text":"我想這個謝謝委員關心那個整個法務部的政策還是有它的延續那我想應該是有在整個蔡部長建立的一個基礎向整個法務部的團隊還是有一些的一些往前精進的地方就像那個未來市政重點這就是我重視的那剛才我跟委員報告就是這個"},{"start":4038.762,"end":4061.238,"text":"黑金槍毒還有詐騙黑金槍毒炸等等我想這是首要我要去努力的那再來我也希望就是我們建制建設一個我們法務部成為一個有柔性司法像我們犯罪被害的保護我想我們會全力來落實還有一個科技這部分"},{"start":4062.679,"end":4070.657,"text":"那其實部長剛剛那個審判會委員也提到現在我們最關心的就昨天那個臺中解約那個殺人案件"},{"start":4072.031,"end":4096.45,"text":"其實我們看到最近我們這陣子真的很多很多的案子都讓我們人心惶惶人民感覺到奇怪我們社會治安怎麼會變成這個樣子那比如說基隆逃出的受監護的處分人還有明德萬一監有人為暗時返回的受刑人到我們昨天的臺中捷運隨機的砍人都讓民眾"},{"start":4097.971,"end":4121.086,"text":"人心惶惶,街頭巷議,大家都很害怕這種人是不是隨時都會出現奇怪怎麼這種人一直在我們的社會上還是有很多這種人一直遊走在我們的社會上隨時會不定時的炸彈就突然間就爆出來造成殺人的這種事情"},{"start":4122.25,"end":4149.611,"text":"另外還有我們也看到說我們的律師勾結詐騙集團但這部分在蔡部長的時候我有跟他討論是不是要修律師法對這種跟詐團組織不肖的這些業者來這個去擔任他的辯護人或者是跟他們幫忙洗錢這些知法犯法的人我們要嚴懲而且要這個律師法要修正馬上把他除名"},{"start":4150.952,"end":4165.444,"text":"所以像這種情況,不曉得部長對於我們社會的安全網這一部分,或者是說對於我們司法界的人、司法人士參與跟詐團來勾結,像這種"},{"start":4170.227,"end":4188.551,"text":"這種類型現在我們發覺現在律師啊不像過去我想過去我跟部長也是舊事我們發覺過去我們大家奉公守法謹守本分就是把自己律師就是維護社會正義檢察官就是去追溯這些不法分子但是我們發覺現在世風日下"},{"start":4191.032,"end":4191.553,"text":"這部分部長您的看法如何?"},{"start":4205.029,"end":4223.898,"text":"關於那個律師法制法務部的主管法規那這部分整個要送評鑑的這些律師評鑑的這些的室友以及他這個程序那我想我們回去我們也會再因為的確有發生這些問題所以我覺得要重視要重視法務部這部分這部分我們再嚴厲看律師的訓練之前訓練相關的教育對這個可能要加強好最後一個問題再請問部長"},{"start":4233.649,"end":4256.607,"text":"因為我現在看到我們王俊麗部長也坐在這裡那因為現在新任調查局是由陳柏麗來處長還調任為我們的局長內部升任這部分當然是我跟很多的調查局的同仁大家也是肯定說由調查局內部來升任也是大家期待的這部分我們會肯定"},{"start":4257.628,"end":4281.27,"text":"但是局長還有我們廉政署莊署長我看到奇怪怎麼520馬上就發布就火速地去這個調離限制啊所以這是部長這是您的想法還是說是我們賴總統或或者是我們的這個行政院左院長的一個想法因為在過去我先講一下過去好像沒有那麼快都會這個"},{"start":4283.031,"end":4307.165,"text":"部長520上任之後再根據實際的狀況跟不管是第二局我們的原任的局長或者是我們廉政署的署長大家一段磨合期之後再來決定要不要去轉調所以這次會那麼快部長是您的意思還是我們總統或者院長的意思"},{"start":4308.134,"end":4336.028,"text":"那我想這個是這個是整個一個法務部的人事的一個政策的考量就像王局長講他那個調辦室的期間也到了那我們也配合我們這次的這次的檢查我這個台北地檢室這個職缺還有其他地檢署檢查那個檢查署的一個檢查的職缺因為7月份7月初也要做調動我想利用這個時間來做一個一個調整是一個比較好的一個時間"},{"start":4337.128,"end":4359.207,"text":"是沒錯啦,但是我們就覺得比較好奇的就是說,奇怪怎麼這一次這麼火速就調整,跟以前的那種慣例不太符合,是不是有什麼特殊的考量?這個沒有特殊考量,這個就是單純的就是我們人事的一個政策,因為的確是檢察長的這一次,我昨天也公告要檢察長的一個啟動的一個機制了嘛。是。"},{"start":4361.969,"end":4389.508,"text":"是啦 部長 檢察長的調動我是認為跟我們調查局齁因為調查局屬於國安各項情資 犯罪情資 國安情資的收集嘛都還沒跟你謀合欸就馬上換一位局長所以我個人是想說這個到底是您的意思還是這個總統的意思我想這個人也有通盤考量所以我是想了解一下而已好 謝謝"},{"start":4392.742,"end":4394.922,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝鄭部長接下來有請謝委員榮屆質詢有請鄭部長"},{"start":4423.106,"end":4446.581,"text":"委員長 部長恭喜 阿謝謝你去台南 你開幾年了台南 十幾年了 會不會輸了 會不會消了我常常回台南 喔 這樣好 這樣表示你對台南這事情都很清楚我們的情境 老總統"},{"start":4451.022,"end":4478.747,"text":"聘請你做部長有跟你做重點的姿勢嗎?我想在這個指示我想委員很清楚齁這個總統對法務部的一些的指示齁他在昨天在520的時候都講了要阿你有聽他演講嗎?這個 管理部 這個有演講的時候我在講喔喔 你知道齁你聽聽 有沒有感覺他講了一遍"},{"start":4481.219,"end":4491.168,"text":"這最法務部的部份是我們要求我們要嚴打就是黑金槍毒詐騙嘛對不對 檢控一項你忘記了他跟你講的工作報告啊 蓋在庭園裡面是怎麼可以檢控一項為什麼這個武打棄煙的策反正武打就黑金槍武打 他檢控一項"},{"start":4506.591,"end":4528.11,"text":"這個請委員來主委他今天說官商勾結及談某一條這部分就是黑金的問題沒有啊 黑金反黑金啊因為他不要把這個名字說出來這是什麼原因你台南的案件你很清楚啊你常常等他啊等一下我幫你探討這個 我請教你剛才在你的報告裡面有說到零款零公約這是一個很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":4534.585,"end":4540.351,"text":"那麼在4月23大法官．針對這個匯度施行的辯論．結束後．大概就三個月來 要來採訪那麼過去的創博中．在本議內有很嚴肅．而且非常傾聽"},{"start":4553.513,"end":4582.445,"text":"說他反對匪奪私刑這是法務部堅定的立場我實在感覺聽了很感動因為加了百十七百趴的臺灣民意相當的符合可是我理解的往來先把你供去以外本身在這希望你可以這是到底是剉薄到個人的立場其實是他所說的是法務部的立場"},{"start":4584.755,"end":4588.145,"text":"我現在要慎重請教你,部長你的立場是什麼?針對會主施行你的立場"},{"start":4592.847,"end":4611.232,"text":"我想法務部的政策都延續性那法務部的立場在上次就該委員提的4月23日那個憲法法庭的辯論中我們那個講得非常清楚我們是主張實行這個制度是合憲的那這個立場我們目前都沒有改變有三次的解釋"},{"start":4617.393,"end":4618.474,"text":"法務部的立場是經過反對匯率施行嗎?"},{"start":4637.334,"end":4652.828,"text":"現在那個整個一個一個我們也是資訊實行的確是一個很嚴肅的問題吼曾成路委員所講的吼那我們有有些的所以你的意思就是你當他裁定下來我現在再問你比較明確的你現在集結之後太多很重要因為這不是你個人而已"},{"start":4664.144,"end":4667.667,"text":"這牽涉到會讀私刑班 因為生為真的未來 早期 未來 地安事件 未來 兇殺事件 會比現在還多的時候所有的負面的效果 變成是熱情的愛情談所以在這 你的態度我要請教你"},{"start":4691.212,"end":4699.615,"text":"七月二三以前：未才的以前：你現在九年：法務部部長：有要執行這四項嗎這三十七年你有要執行嗎"},{"start":4706.173,"end":4722.648,"text":"執行、實行跟委員報告,執行是非常嚴肅的一個問題。那既然現在你在事件中,我想不管是要不要執行,我想這個時候這個是我們在靜待,我們應該是7月份應該會有一個結果出來。"},{"start":4723.709,"end":4741.659,"text":"我想要執行也不急於這樣,而且更何況只有37名的死刑患目前都還在有申請那個非常上訴,那我想在法律的一個程序還沒做完,我想我們這邊還是要靜待大法官的一個視線,一個憲法法庭的判決結果。阿咧,阿咧好。阿叔,大法官若是解說出來是合憲,阿你什麼時候要請什麼?"},{"start":4753.281,"end":4771.479,"text":"這個合憲的一個解釋,因為我還沒有出來,如果說有涉及到一些的,他一定有一定的一些的結論出來,我想我們依照這個合憲的一個判決,我們來做一個處理。我還在等這個判決。"},{"start":4778.154,"end":4790.522,"text":"你都說你不屬於司法的藍波的,你扮演很恐怖的,這要稱殺是一行案就要再等我稍微有失望,不知道今天我對你割斗的期待你有說要打詐啦過去的詐騙,民進黨說八年了,一年拿那麼多了結果,八年的政府"},{"start":4805.99,"end":4828.982,"text":"早期的越炸越多 案件越來越多 你們是在算錢還是算價 我也想不到啊你一直抓 法務部 檢察官啊 地方的警察啊 大家抓你來去告犯人都判不上 勤判差不多50% 判三年以上的大概0.5%"},{"start":4832.821,"end":4848.492,"text":"兩點五分 兩半的炸氣飯和一個半個檔次的分量那如果這樣 我理恐 老總統就在那一天你知不知道我們有去抓到一個在南島有抓到一個車手 你知不知道23倍的炸氣飯車手啦這個個人你可能不知道抓到的時候齁"},{"start":4861.192,"end":4873.78,"text":"他跟警察說他1個月前比較讓你們抓到而已,1個月前啦,比較讓抓到而已,結果當然放他出來,還是檢測我參審室把他關也沒關,1個月後再抓到的時候,警察問他說我現在裝備升級啦,裝備升級啦,出來收錢又檢測電超機啦,"},{"start":4893.376,"end":4905.359,"text":"他為什麼要拚?他投資報酬率特別好啊!我們國防部的募兵啊!兵員不足啊!詐騙集團的車手募兵啊!兵員延延不斷啊!一個月賞賣還有10萬、9萬啊!賞賣的喔!啊咱!請一個兵要替我們去戰爭!一個月才3萬多啊!要不要來做兵?啊詐騙又不用關!"},{"start":4921.738,"end":4942.642,"text":"你對這個炸棄的態度是怎樣?我想委員講的也是有這些的事實上的一個依據那我想 的確啦 的確我們打炸一定要讓它無利可圖才有效果所以我們推出打炸裝法這部分我們請委員要支持你剛才有說我現在打炸裝"},{"start":4947.023,"end":4947.404,"text":"這個稍當立能"},{"start":4969.217,"end":4985.548,"text":"這個你兩個傢伙,你說你上次回到台南,我現在問你你知道台南有很多案件沒有?這個檢察官有在分,我們爭半宗那你在爭半宗?他這個一定要仔細蒐證,我想我們會要求權力來...我知道啊,我檢舉的你們都沒辦啊爭半宗我也知道爭半宗啊我重視的是高雄高街,你們都辦在那裡的卡而已嘛"},{"start":4997.318,"end":5002.561,"text":"我現在再跟你說一間公司10萬 主本業各位 你們聽到沒有 我在說 你們人家在科企在做公務員他一般成立5、6間公司"},{"start":5027.145,"end":5031.928,"text":"阿不然你也出一點點份對不對 要來給我們騙 要來給我們冠雙高潔 你也要出份一間公司10萬啦 齁對賣土地 土地200萬 實價登錄變成8百萬8百萬可以跟銀行借600萬 賺一堆錢 錢賺一堆 經過4年 一間10萬的主本業公司 再賺喔"},{"start":5056.957,"end":5066.162,"text":"變成主本業都中逆我會講 還在四五年 他們都可以中七九幾這樣抓不到你們現在辦的都在那技術喔真的因為我們國家為了要綠能所以 農資開綠燈全部的錢都在銀行辦的你們辦不到 不可能啊靠可能的辦不到 你跟我說在雲南中我"},{"start":5087.078,"end":5098.525,"text":"堅強相信你那個委員關心喔 我想 我會要求我們各檢察機關來 嚴加來我告訴你說差沒有 我告訴你 金 金流你賣3億 為什麼你收1億而已春年2億 為什麼不給你再來實價登錄土地對了 閉了"},{"start":5114.38,"end":5127.386,"text":"這對你來說是簡單的,對不對?你本人那麼年輕,有可能這個差不出來啦!要查到不查,不然不記得辣青特總統的決心?他在台南,去年3月15日叫台南市民進黨所有市長、立委都站起來!跟台南人合謀!為什麼合謀?因為他發覺外雙高潔很嚴重啦!"},{"start":5143.851,"end":5172.144,"text":"好 謝謝謝委員謝謝謝委員 謝謝鄭部長先做宣告今年委員提出臨時提案依本會往例在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理預計在上午11時處理如屆時委員正在詢答則於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案繼續請黃委員三三質詢"},{"start":5180.111,"end":5180.311,"text":"委員早"},{"start":5187.645,"end":5211.881,"text":"副長好也恭喜我想今天大家在這裡都很重視因為您的身份是檢察長那我想問一下現在我們地檢署大家都知道檢察官過勞然後我們也提案了檢察官助理制度那一直以來都沒有入法那我們提案之後我想請問一下部長你對檢察官助理增加的部分你有什麼見解"},{"start":5213.612,"end":5227.64,"text":"檢察官助理的確是對檢察工作的分擔因為他在上一次的修法法官助理納入的時候沒有納入所以已經拖了很久所以你要不要幫基層檢察官把這個法趕快往前推一步吧"},{"start":5228.16,"end":5229.661,"text":"臺灣的詐騙已經成為非常非常重要的民眾痛苦的地方"},{"start":5244.633,"end":5244.653,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5261.966,"end":5262.026,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5276.36,"end":5276.48,"text":"法務部部長"},{"start":5297.279,"end":5297.399,"text":"部長同意嗎?"},{"start":5314.39,"end":5315.07,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5333.32,"end":5347.233,"text":"現在的打詐專法我也看到了你們裡面針對目前現有的法規賬戶有異常叫做警示賬戶如果是人頭的話我們給他告誡賬戶但是你知道一年有多少詐欺案的被通緝的通緝犯嗎"},{"start":5348.234,"end":5364.524,"text":"警政署一年有3000多名詐欺犯的通緝犯法務部給我的資料是有14000多人的通緝犯這些通緝犯可能是詐欺犯的車手或者是相關的關係人他們在通緝中他們的帳戶有沒有被控制"},{"start":5365.504,"end":5389.523,"text":"沒有你了解我的意思嗎?他不是只有銀行帳戶他還有第三方支付的帳戶他還有虛幣帳戶這些通緝犯的帳戶都沒有被控制我是一個小小的人頭我都要被告誡我是可能有異常的進出我就要被警示但是我們的法令裡面對這些人並沒有金融制裁"},{"start":5391.424,"end":5403.775,"text":"打詐專法很好但是打詐專法裡面除了對有洗錢行為才處理但是我認為對於這些詐欺的可能的關係人我們也要給他一些類似金融制裁的方法你同意嗎"},{"start":5406.492,"end":5420.796,"text":"如果一個炸雞飯可以在外面,或者通緝飯可以在外面繼續開跑車住豪宅,然後他的錢源源不絕的來,他可能有虛弊帳戶,他可能有第三方支付帳戶,我們完全沒有做任何控制。"},{"start":5421.536,"end":5421.816,"text":"部長現在就叫做通報"},{"start":5439.739,"end":5464.812,"text":"沒有正式的空管我講的是金融制裁制度我希望人的制裁對這種人的制裁我們應該做一些相關的法規同樣的部分我們也提了相對案我也希望法務部在這個方面能夠再擴大對於詐欺犯真的打詐打詐要讓人民有感"},{"start":5465.712,"end":5494.324,"text":"我們都抓了一堆人找不回來被害人的錢其實對他們來說都沒有意義第二個打炸現在已經是全民最重要的事情了除了我們看到很多很多的所謂貪圖那是另外一回事但打炸是市井小民每一個人都接過的事每一個人都有親友被詐騙甚至每一天都看到新聞這是一個全民非常痛恨的行為我希望打炸戰法送到立法院來之後"},{"start":5494.844,"end":5521.723,"text":"我們希望他在範圍上效率上重點是找得到錢把錢攔截住才是我覺得才是法務部的重點金管會這邊可以配合但是現在有太多太多外部的管道有第三方支付有虛幣虛幣到現在為止你說那個平台說難聽點他們都沒有辦法加入為什麼因為政府不承認他們存在如果可以的話部長我希望這個平台由法務部來主導因為你在後端很累"},{"start":5522.463,"end":5522.963,"text":"接下來有請楊委員窮英諮詢"},{"start":5559.155,"end":5561.316,"text":"總統先生在就職的時候提到要積極打擊黑金、槍、毒聽到這個你預計要怎麼做"},{"start":5587.079,"end":5589.401,"text":"這是你的本份,也是你的重心,要怎麼去做"},{"start":5616.262,"end":5630.25,"text":"蔡英文總統就職時大聲吶喊,一定要司法代改革,期待非常高,但這次總統先生說延續。這兩位總統就職時,針對司法的宣示差距那麼大,您的看法?"},{"start":5639.318,"end":5641.8,"text":"一個是大聲吶喊我要大力的去改革一個是延續"},{"start":5654.694,"end":5658.555,"text":"那您要取其中還是遵循哪一位呢?各位部長您說的就是說會延續"},{"start":5681.902,"end":5708.773,"text":"政策性當然是延續但是我們反觀有很多大師吶喊要司法改革但是又跳票比如說這個接避者保護法到目前為止還沒送到立法院立法委員的版本已經在上個禮拜都已經在審了請教部長您的看法因為你擔任過警察長你在第一線作戰最辛苦最辛苦我們都非常清楚"},{"start":5710.114,"end":5711.515,"text":"委員會主管列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":5735.133,"end":5741.321,"text":"法務部重要的這個案子會盡速你的立場會盡速督促"},{"start":5742.841,"end":5770.332,"text":"這個行政院趕快送到不敢督促我們是不敢督促因為我們已經送到行政院是審議那我想我們法務部你剛才講了我不敢督促你又彎下去我又緊張了啊這個不是我對你期待很高耶這個用詞不是督促好那你請請行政院我們也我們也是做在加速的一個立法的一個過程好那會不會加速這個一定會加速的啊會加速有沒有進度"},{"start":5771.473,"end":5773.375,"text":"這個是有進度小姐你是要報告進度嗎?要問一下幹嘛?"},{"start":5778.15,"end":5803.442,"text":"部長,你不用緊張,你部長的能力非常好來,部長,我們已經討論接避責保護法在立法院,立法委員的提案就已經在上個禮拜就已經在司法委員會審查那我們行政院吧,我們在等所以,你會請,請對,我會請好,你會請行政院盡速來那個加速的審查加速審查,趕快送所以行政院還沒審查嘛"},{"start":5804.338,"end":5806.339,"text":"越打越炸檢察官在第一線累垮了檢察官"},{"start":5835.698,"end":5855.803,"text":"對不對案件這麼多所以政府也看到這個問題成立了國家打詐隊打詐司法但是你身為檢察長到現在你身為部長在你檢察長的任內我們的數字告訴你2019年兩萬三千零五十事件越打越詐2023年數字會講話"},{"start":5862.277,"end":5879.531,"text":"三千七百九十八三萬七千九百八十事件金額民眾黨被騙的四十多億一直到將近九十億這是顯性隱性的還看不到還更多也裂垮了我們檢查系統法官那這怎麼辦到目前為止這怎麼辦國家人民已經面臨到這樣子的危機"},{"start":5891.294,"end":5913.447,"text":"每個人心很害怕我電話到底接不接訊息我到底看不看人民生活在恐懼不安心這是政府的責任要怎麼去做所以這個打炸的部分您剛才說到了一句話您說已經到了炸盤核心"},{"start":5914.709,"end":5916.092,"text":"法制面反映在法律的刑責"},{"start":5923.578,"end":5948.45,"text":"不夠不夠重那太輕了那這次我們打造裝法我們對這些的比較比如說高額的炸槍1000萬或者複合型的這些的炸漆的那個炸團這部分我們加重刑責加重刑責提高刑度這個是大家有共識社會跟行政部門跟立法院那我想這個還是要委員來支持我們送到立法院我請委員支持我想這個我們減化半料武器必須要這個嚴懲要嚴懲要重懲這才有"},{"start":5952.692,"end":5953.033,"text":"行政提高"},{"start":5968.12,"end":5996.317,"text":"你們在研議,你們還會不會加速?這兩個字我蠻喜歡的,加速!草案已經出來,已經行政院的院會已經審查通過了,已經要送到立法院了所以這次,這次請委員：你會不會請行政院儘速加速?這個打造司法已經院會通過了,我們這份是在立法院請委員能夠支持還沒送過來?應該要送過來啦,要送過來啦送過來的,要送過來,到底有沒有送過來?"},{"start":5997.677,"end":6004.519,"text":"部長,因為這個問題啊,真的是國安危機每個人民不安心每個人民很恐慌我想部長這也是你的就任部長的非常重要的工作指標之一吧"},{"start":6026.238,"end":6047.585,"text":"所以加重提高行動這個是我相信藍綠白的委員大家都有共識因為這是社會民意我們以民為主以民意為主讓人民都安心好不好跟你加油我們一起來讓人民安心我們就全力來讓打造司法能夠通過謝謝委員關心好加油謝謝謝謝楊委員謝謝曾部長"},{"start":6054.451,"end":6055.132,"text":"主席請部長有請曾部長"},{"start":6083.874,"end":6111.545,"text":"委員早部長早早恭喜你啊謝謝賴清德的大將當時在是不是啦傳聞啦北施還沒有查證清楚賴清德在台南有一個類似一個街頭的一個車輛糾紛當時啦有一些衝突然後承辦檢察官是哪一位"},{"start":6114.629,"end":6119.98,"text":"那當時是打架還是被打?他是被打"},{"start":6121.912,"end":6150.324,"text":"情況有多嚴重那個蠻嚴重的他事實上就是一個就是有三部機車逆向行駛那差點差點撞到賴清德先前對那時候是應該是賴委員那時候有跟他講說你這個是逆向結果他有沒有罵三四金怎麼不可能罵三四金他修養那麼好不可能他是修養很好他是一個很嚴肅的我認識賴清德很久不像你講的修養這麼好"},{"start":6153.705,"end":6177.881,"text":"我們跟他投資很久了他非常致富那最後你是以重傷害來救責嗎重傷害未遂殺人未遂重傷害未遂重傷重傷重傷未遂求情多少求情四年多求情四年多那個眼睛受傷蠻嚴重的因為我現在看他都還是很帥謝謝我要講部長你的發跡過程這樣我們就了解了"},{"start":6181.397,"end":6208.046,"text":"那另外就是我們先瞭解一下因為您接任部長我們來看一下這個司法的可信度瞭不瞭解在去年山水民調做了我們的對司法的一個民眾的這個所謂司法改革的一個滿意度現在發現對這個司法改革民進黨這4年來對司法改革"},{"start":6210.137,"end":6217.922,"text":"數字還不錯滿意度有三成對民進黨執政來講民進黨執政裡面有38算是高滿意度48.1不滿意再過來是否公正大概認為公正的有34.9%不公正的有55.5%請問一下部長對這個數字有什麼感想"},{"start":6240.616,"end":6265.871,"text":"這個是我對這個數據的取樣我是不清楚啦我去年公佈到現在已經吵了一段時間我不清楚那我想任何的數據都是這是民間司改這是一個可以參考啦可以參考那既然要參考的話就應該要提升嘛人民對司法的信任度我想我們對司改的努力這個是永不停歇啦好那再看下一張這個是比較嚴重的"},{"start":6269.498,"end":6293.649,"text":"檢察官是不是會受到政治力的影響八成五的民眾認為檢察官辦案的時候會受到政治力的影響這個數字就是本席阿特別對民進黨執政阿光是最近這四年 112年往前推算四年民眾有85%認為檢察官在辦案過程中"},{"start":6297.159,"end":6297.799,"text":"有則改資 無則加免"},{"start":6324.688,"end":6344.973,"text":"這不是立法院做的 也不是在野黨做的這是很清楚公布在那裡的資料檢察長 部長 我覺得接下來可能要如何讓人民感受到檢察官是確實公正當案 有沒有信心"},{"start":6348.244,"end":6350.346,"text":"對於檢查事務官為什麼到現在還補不起啊?"},{"start":6367.717,"end":6374.647,"text":"檢查事宜我們現在一直在補完每年像我們還有多少缺額檢查事宜關的缺額600多100"},{"start":6379.087,"end":6381.108,"text":"現有100多現有100多現有100多現有100多現有100多現有100多現有100多"},{"start":6403.094,"end":6415.76,"text":"檢察事務官儘快補足好不好檢察事務官補足以後對於整個政策品質還不足的話我們再來討論檢察官助理的問題我們一步一步來做好不好你們這樣一提出來司法院也馬上趁機來過水他們也要法官助理"},{"start":6425.117,"end":6444.551,"text":"法官怎麼會要助理 本席實在聽不懂欸秉持聽訟 中立那怎麼會現在變成法官要來當檢察官的助理幫檢察官來補資料的不足 代為修正委員你講檢察官助理嗎"},{"start":6447.24,"end":6465.719,"text":"法官是聽受要秉持公正中立的原則而不是自己把自己來當檢察官的助理所以這個案子一提出來司法院馬上就會要求他們要法官助理他們現在已經有法官助理了他們還要過邊"},{"start":6469.212,"end":6471.554,"text":"臺中又發生隨機殺人事件在捷運上對於廢死您的看法如何"},{"start":6496.097,"end":6512.575,"text":"呃 我想法務部的立場都是部長 部長您的立場我這邊不能談我個人的立場為什麼不能談個人的立場一個部長是政務官對 我昨天談過沒有政務官對於政策要講清楚這個是一個法務部的一個立場齁那個立場我們 我想我們都是我們都是在"},{"start":6513.576,"end":6536.452,"text":"在釋憲在憲法法庭那個釋憲是另外一件事情嘛一個政務官政務官的風骨嘛你的部長你當了政務官當然你的態度嘛我們法務部這個就是合憲死刑製法就是合憲的合憲這是我們想我們絕對我自己來當法務部嘛就是要對嘛要敢要挺直嘛未來你們下面的檢察官治安不好都跟部長的態度有關係嘛對不對"},{"start":6539.306,"end":6566.969,"text":"如果你們去支持Face還是陳鳳尚義那我以後不得了啊這案子永遠辦不完啊而且越來越兇啊這社會治安怎麼辦司法是社會的最後一道正義的防線嘛當然你們檢察官你的腰桿要站直嘛部長是承擔所有政治責任你要讓下面所有的檢察官能夠有所侍從嘛"},{"start":6567.864,"end":6591.296,"text":"我們都支持法務部但你們要敢自己要挺職啊另外這個賴清德總統我延續一下剛剛西龍界委員講的前天的宣誓啊這個黑金槍圖啊這個圖圖漏掉官商勾結貪贓枉法本席對於台南啊這個88槍啊然後再10槍在當街"},{"start":6595.759,"end":6617.284,"text":"槍殺就是為了這個綠能相關的不法利益啊我希望這個台南啊您出生自台南擔任國檢察長先把台南問題把它處理乾淨一點有沒有信心這個我會這個本來就是有沒有信心這個我沒有權利來做有沒有信心嘛"},{"start":6618.423,"end":6646.57,"text":"這個我們當然這個要全力來做就會建立民眾對我們的一個信任好我再最後再請教一下對呀這個林志廟縣長被起訴那時候您在哪裡起訴那時候我已經離開林鄭署了所以資料蒐集的時候有參與對不對對那個偵辦的時候我有參與那高鴻安呢市長高鴻安是我在北檢檢察長的時候起訴的"},{"start":6647.692,"end":6648.652,"text":"政司法如同皇后的徵抄"},{"start":6678.058,"end":6697.051,"text":"如果我們檢察官、司法要揣摩上意來辦案我想是沒有辦法得到人民的支持跟掌聲在這裡也要請部長您來的過程當中你跟前幾任的部長在資歷上"},{"start":6699.517,"end":6728.46,"text":"可能沒有像他們這麼晚輩尤其在北檢短短一年就接任部長這是屬於天賦異品級的所以我們希望這個部長未來的成績大家都在看希望這個部長能夠摒棄政治的干擾本席在這裡預報一下本席在擔任縣長的時候蔡英文就職以後"},{"start":6730.68,"end":6748.688,"text":"就執政黨的秘書長來跟我談要怎麼樣處理我的司法案件本席現在先在這裡跟您預報一下還可以交換的本席是嚴正拒絕在這裡先預報一下"},{"start":6753.482,"end":6753.922,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":6786.801,"end":6815.243,"text":"委員早部長臺中捷運隨機砍人的這個影片你有看過嗎有看過你看的是什麼心情這個很痛心這個這個這個我們檢察官這部分的第一個時間的趕貨現場去收證我的感覺跟你一樣非常痛心今天要不是車上的乘客竭力的冒著生命危險制止他"},{"start":6816.616,"end":6842.662,"text":"他順便就重演10年前鄭捷案造成更大的死傷對不對是那我想請教部長如果死刑廢除了我們來看今天臺中捷運的這隨機砍人他是計畫好的吧這個還要再再再他宣稱的阿他說他是計畫好的阿而且他挑在10年前鄭捷這個隨機捷運隨機殺人案"},{"start":6847.008,"end":6871.359,"text":"的同一天10年後的同一天他說他是計劃好的但是他又說他不想死被抓到說不想死他計劃好要別人死他自己不想死我不知道部長怎麼看這件事情這個是我想這部分還留待檢查來查因為這部分還在警方我要跟部長說"},{"start":6873.602,"end":6893.923,"text":"這就是今天所謂廢除死刑主張者要面對的荒謬今天如果沒有台中的這些勇敢的民眾去拒止他會造成多大的傷亡他計畫好讓別人死他自己不想死完全就符合廢除死刑主張者的論調阿"},{"start":6896.684,"end":6924.852,"text":"今天如果一個炸彈客一樣去放下他們放個炸彈捷運炸掉炸死上百人死刑廢除之後請問他會不會被判死刑如果今天大法官宣告死刑死刑違憲然後死刑把他廢掉今天如果換一個炸彈客把捷運炸掉炸死一百人然後他說我是計畫好而且我也不想死然後我炸死一百人請問部長"},{"start":6926.581,"end":6951.472,"text":"如果大法官說死刑違憲廢除死刑請問部長如果出現這樣的人他會不會被判死刑這個個案就是由法官依照當時的還有法官吶對那個法律來個人來判斷還有法官還有法律啊大法官宣告違憲那接下來發生什麼事情請問部長"},{"start":6955.152,"end":6964.791,"text":"這你有法學素養你也代表法務部可以講阿這個如果說我想這個如果有違憲的話我想這部分我們會會有來"},{"start":6967.691,"end":6993.729,"text":"就要修法把死刑拿掉啦就如果發生我講的案例基本上就沒有判處死刑的問題了對不對我這樣講錯了嗎我的法律法學見解有問題嗎這個違憲的解釋我們就等待那個這不是違憲解釋啦違憲的判決我想我們等待違憲判決就只有兩個我待會問你下一個現在我還不知道我還不知道這還是近代那個憲法法庭的一個審判"},{"start":6994.489,"end":7002.314,"text":"沒關係部長我知道你不願意正面回答這個問題沒有關係那我問你下一個問題你總得正面回答"},{"start":7004.383,"end":7023.084,"text":"法務部的立場非常明確對於死刑的規定法務部認為合憲而且大法官會議之前做過解釋也認為合憲現在情勢沒有很大改變法務部堅決主張死刑規定合憲是不是廢死是另外一個問題應該由代表民意的立法機關做決定這一話誰講的"},{"start":7028.446,"end":7051.584,"text":"這個是在4月23號辯論的時候我們法務部的一個主張不是 這蔡清祥本身就是這個主張啊蔡清祥前部長講的請問我現在就確認一下蔡清祥部長代表誰講他是法務部的意見對啊 那請問是誰的意見就法務部的意見"},{"start":7053.291,"end":7079.567,"text":"你有改變嗎我想這個是延續的所以第一件事情我要強調的是我也要跟部長講 我要肯定法務部啦為什麼 法務部在這個所謂的死刑認為核限這件事情上展現了擔當即便大法官在之前在法庭辯論顯露心證法務部還是一樣有這個擔當"},{"start":7081.24,"end":7108.85,"text":"可是我要講下一個問題法務部另外一個讓我肯定的事是什麼就算死刑要廢除應該是怎麼個廢除法法務部的立場我們法務部本來一種主張就是核限所以廢死的這部分我們有表達我們的立場部長你的立場開始退縮囉請問法務部原來的主張蔡新強部長在我面前直接告訴我他很堅定的告訴我"},{"start":7110.322,"end":7133.284,"text":"你廢死也不該由大法官解釋應該是要受過什麼程序來廢死透過國會啦不是嗎 透過立法啦所以你不認同這是法務部的主張是沒錯但是憲法法庭的判決的結果我現在不能夠作為臆測我跟額南部長真的抱歉"},{"start":7135.083,"end":7162.722,"text":"你有發現外面對你有一些政治性的一些concern我到現在都沒有質詢這一塊你知道為什麼我還是想從專業部分來跟你對話可是我必須這樣講你到目前的表現遠遠不及蔡清祥他在那邊就斬釘截鐵非常有擔當就說出兩件事第一個他認為死刑核限第二個他認為死刑要廢可以進到立法院來廢"},{"start":7164.718,"end":7191.892,"text":"這兩個事情我剛剛看你在第二段你就開始閃爍啦請問 廢除死刑是不是應該交給國會來廢除對嘛 你就直接講嘛不是嘛 你現在是法務部部長我也不是問你今天個人我問你這個法務部的立場啊雖然蔡新強部長連他個人的立場他都表達出來了啦包括法務部立場所以我要告訴大家一件事情"},{"start":7193.544,"end":7221.776,"text":"部長你就一個今天我們法務部的首長死刑的存廢跟法務部有沒有重大攸關有沒有啊 有當然嘛這種情況之下我的看法很簡單啊死刑存廢的爭論辯論這麼久了我也不是說今天主張廢除死刑的說法完全沒有任何的基礎跟道理"},{"start":7223.186,"end":7244.073,"text":"但是請問現在有多少的民意認為不該廢除死刑八成以上這也是蔡新洋部長公開說的所以第一件事情為什麼肯定法務部我現在也肯定你的因為你剛剛也講了因為第一個事情就是不要逆著八成的民意幹"},{"start":7247.469,"end":7271.242,"text":"不要逆著過去三次大法官解釋死刑核憲的大法官的意見幹回到我們憲政的精神行事訴訟 行事法制 刑法 死刑的存廢就算要廢除死刑 學學苗博雅 去參選立法委員"},{"start":7272.534,"end":7273.034,"text":"請問部長我代表就是選民不是嗎"},{"start":7302.932,"end":7327.291,"text":"就單一區的選民阿所以因此在這邊我也是鄭重的呼籲阿即將要做所謂的死刑是否合憲的宣判尤其在今天昨天還發生再度發生隨機砍人案媒體報導阿他直接在被逮的時候說他是計畫好的阿他還說他不想死阿阿那請問"},{"start":7330.475,"end":7358.434,"text":"他計畫好就可以讓別人死然後自己也可以不想死現在形式 我們的整個形式法制為什麼讓很多的被害者跟家屬痛心因為都在保護加害者了那另外一個我要問不過這個問題問你 可能你又不回答了我剛剛前面講了 死刑如果被宣布違憲前面講那個極端的案例"},{"start":7360.389,"end":7381.858,"text":"如果炸彈客炸掉100人也不用判死刑啦這個不需要到部長的層級啦這個一般民眾都可以能夠判斷的啦但是另外一個就部長你就可以講囉如果宣布死刑合憲的話我想請問部長到目前為止我們法務部不執行死刑的理由是什麼"},{"start":7385.038,"end":7406.393,"text":"現在就是還釋憲中嗎好啊那如果今天死刑確定是合憲的話法務部要不要執行死刑我們法務部是司法行政的機關我們依法辦理所以你就是要依法辦理是什麼執行死刑啊不是嗎就是我們會依法辦理因為你現在主卻執行死刑就是因為釋憲嘛"},{"start":7408.447,"end":7429.818,"text":"所以就兩條路嘛 如果死刑被宣布違憲的話 當然法務部你不用執行 我也不會勉強法務部我們也沒有辦法期待法務部今天是違抗這個大法官的這個法庭的解釋但是如果大法官認為死刑是合憲的 拜託部長記得今天的話"},{"start":7431.104,"end":7445.854,"text":"目前實行沒有執行 形同實質廢死是因為你剛剛說在大法官會議解釋當中如果解釋出來合憲 請你回到法律來辦理好不好是 這個我們就依法辦理謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝鄭部長 現在休息"},{"start":7466.194,"end":7468.499,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7482.497,"end":7486.241,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7507.846,"end":7509.567,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7538.006,"end":7539.908,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7582.449,"end":7585.469,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7623.025,"end":7646.725,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7655.569,"end":7662.791,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7700.807,"end":7706.392,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7713.132,"end":7714.072,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7742.66,"end":7745.182,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7786.464,"end":7789.845,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7806.829,"end":7824.553,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7828.797,"end":7832.022,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7866.99,"end":7867.651,"text":"好 繼續開會現在請林委員德福質詢"},{"start":7890.568,"end":7913.258,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是請那個法務部正部長有請正部長委員好部長你好部長首先恭喜您新任新職就任新職但近來整個國事環多啊治安動盪以下就將"},{"start":7916.552,"end":7940.759,"text":"將就隨機殺人、死刑、毒品等議題以政部長來討論首先昨天有一位高雄衛生局列管對象前往台中捷運實施無差別殺人選定在5月21日是否有模仿鄭捷整個北捷殺人案件的意圖是不是檢調要深入調查"},{"start":7942.256,"end":7965.179,"text":"是 這個一定要深入調查那這件我們檢查台中地檢署已經分案了那檢察官在通報後第一時間就趕赴現場來收證了謝謝本期是希望說法務部調查局要進行社群這個網路這個情資的收集時對特定重大犯罪的事件日期"},{"start":7966.62,"end":7986.614,"text":"前後要加強網路巡邏對此部長你有什麼看法這個我同意我認為因為正節也是那一天這個也是這一天這個裡面為什麼同樣的日子我認為你們應該要進一步深入的去了解是 這個我們會去了解"},{"start":7986.854,"end":8008.133,"text":"第二部長根據中正大學犯罪研究中心的調查研究發現有近86%的民眾是不贊成匯除死刑蔡清祥前部長在任內也兩次批准執行死刑蔡前部長認為死刑是"},{"start":8009.366,"end":8011.528,"text":"本席請問部長您是否支持維持死刑呢?"},{"start":8026.557,"end":8046.038,"text":"這個我想我既然當法務部長我們就是要認為就是這個合憲的合憲嘛我認為說您對檢察官體系的瞭解您是認為檢察官胡亂起訴求處死刑如果憲法法庭認為死刑合憲那目前有37位喔"},{"start":8048.081,"end":8061.3,"text":"這個死刑犯還沒有執行死刑那未來您批准執行死刑先後可能的依據為何是被害者人數還是死刑定驗時間的長短"},{"start":8063.865,"end":8064.806,"text":"部長,因為86%的人認為他們是反對會死"},{"start":8091.966,"end":8110.214,"text":"那這個其實對受害者家屬來講那是第二次很嚴重的傷害因為他本身是受害者的家屬那是永遠的痛我們轉個角度來看就好了那個部長毒品是萬惡之首"},{"start":8111.534,"end":8139.073,"text":"西讀者沒錢買讀竟而換下詐欺、偷竊、強盜、殺人等案件截至113年4月底在監獄裡面的人數有5萬人5萬人因為毒品案件這個胡行共業有超過2萬人佔4成受刑人的4成比例這麼高那現任國防部長顧立雄在擔任立委時曾也主張說"},{"start":8140.514,"end":8161.753,"text":"擴大實施施用這個毒品罪醫療前職化的修法,被外界認為是變相的毒品除罪化那請問法務部目前要推動毒品危害防治條例修法,將施用這個第一級第二級毒品除罪化嗎?你們會不會?"},{"start":8163.238,"end":8172.977,"text":"這個沒有要處罪化的這些的立法我認為說齁真的你所有尤其是這個做毒品在賣甚至於這個"},{"start":8176.071,"end":8195.203,"text":"就是從國外走私毒品進來那真的是萬惡之手所有任何幹壞事搶劫什麼都是跟毒品沾染上關係幾乎所以說我希望法務部在這方面你們一定要堅持而且尤其我認為說"},{"start":8197.253,"end":8213.579,"text":"那個販毒的人你判得太輕了應該要再加重這個謝謝委員我想我們這個已經反毒策略的行動綱領要進入第三期了那現在毒品的新生人口也都降低了那另外那個我們那個災犯也都降低了這個請委員放心我們會努力"},{"start":8214.099,"end":8231.58,"text":"我最後一個議題,國內走私與私用二級毒品大麻迅速的成長,據調查局的統計,大麻成長量已超越安徽他命,成為國內第二大類的毒品,2023年查獲大麻總數量一共1169公斤,"},{"start":8234.043,"end":8255.042,"text":"相較於202121年查獲約240公斤,增加386%,將近4倍。首先本席反對稀釋大麻除罪化,也反對大麻改為三級土品。這個中正大學犯罪研究中心調查指出,差不多九成的民眾"},{"start":8258.024,"end":8278.861,"text":"此不贊成大麻合法化就是不能讓它稀食大麻請問法務部未來會將大麻改列為第三級毒品讓稀食大麻除罪化嗎這個本部的立場是反對大麻除罪化我們這個還要把它當作我們安居緝毒的專案的查緝的重點毒品"},{"start":8279.361,"end":8279.661,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":8300.43,"end":8326.719,"text":"臨委員謝謝政部長接下來有請政委員天才政委員天才政委員天才不在有請紅委員孟凱諮詢主席謝謝麻煩請政部長有請政部長委員好部長好"},{"start":8327.83,"end":8353.892,"text":"部長今天很多的委員也都請教法務部關於廢死的議題啊不管是你個人或是法務部目前我都有聽到你的相關的一個說法但是本席因為今天你是新上任的法務部長所以我想我還是要再確認一下在2018年法務部長曾經講過廢死是台灣目標我想請教你有這樣的認同嗎"},{"start":8359.962,"end":8386.368,"text":"費使是台灣的目標嗎這是法務部的立場一定是法務部的立場因為我是當法務部長法務部的立場是以我們是合憲的合憲所以費使是不是台灣的目標還是他個人的目標這個邱部長他這個我不曉得是他的在什麼時候的場合發表這我不清楚但是你個人呢費使是你的目標嗎"},{"start":8389.178,"end":8402.086,"text":"我到目前為止我都是講合憲的好來下一張下面蔡清祥部長說廢死是國際的趨勢也是我國長期努力的方向你認同嗎"},{"start":8403.448,"end":8427.178,"text":"我想會使的確是在某些國家是已經...某些國家嗎?但也不是國際的趨勢嗎?那是不是...是國際...我想這個有國際上的確有會使的在整個...整個有這個一個...一個...但也有人認為是說要嚴刑峻防來防範保障好人以美國日本等國先進國家還是維持死刑制度"},{"start":8427.358,"end":8455.831,"text":"是 所以廢死也不是國際虛勢嘛也不是我國長期努力的方向嘛我國國民長期以來民調對於廢死的議題高達八成的民眾反對廢死對吧所以我們尊重我們法部也非常尊重這個民意是 來再來接下來2022年行政院發言人被問到廢除死刑的議題時強調法務部逐漸朝向廢除死刑推動有嗎"},{"start":8457.056,"end":8458.237,"text":"所以行政院發言人講到有逐步朝向這個方向嗎還是越來越遠離"},{"start":8485.189,"end":8499.791,"text":"如果說聽您剛剛部長講的講法其實是看民意喔民意如果說越來越不希望廢除死刑其實法務部是越來越遠離廢除死刑喔是這樣嗎法務部應該是跟民意站在一起的跟民意站在一起 非常好所以部長今天"},{"start":8500.672,"end":8515.905,"text":"本席用前前部長前任部長行政院前任發言人的話就是想要確認現任部長在2024年新民意產生之後的態度為何是要跟民意站在一起"},{"start":8516.745,"end":8544.953,"text":"還是要跟過去蔡英文前總統講過肺死是普世價值這樣子的一個個人立場站在一起我想這個肺死這個議題這個是各界還是一個爭議很大的一個議題是嚴重的議題我們也是希望能夠廣納意見如果要肺死真的是要廣納意見要有共識才有辦法所以法務部現在沒有共識不會推動對吧目前我們還是還是到目前為止本部都沒有改變立場"},{"start":8545.438,"end":8560.523,"text":"好來部長另外一個議題上個禮拜吵得沸沸揚揚就是特色的問題在蔡英文總統卸任之前本來以為是說會有簽署特色陳水扁前總統但是沒有"},{"start":8561.323,"end":8588.562,"text":"那那個時候也講到是說陳水扁特赦的研議其實9年來38次延長法外就醫已經讓外界覺得是說他跟好像他的行為方向都跟一般正常人沒有差別那特赦當時有講到是說詹文總統也沒有交給前任的法務部長來去做研議要不要特赦那請教您上任第二天了嗎"},{"start":8589.483,"end":8615.706,"text":"有沒有接到新指示要研議特赦我們沒有接到這份的訊息沒有嗎那如果未來假設賴清德總統在這四年你任內裡面真的有考慮要特赦的話是不是應該先交由法務部來做研議主管機關特赦法就是認為說總統德請要求行政院找主管機關來做研議嗎所以你認為法制要怎麼走"},{"start":8616.927,"end":8637.933,"text":"這個要按照聖明法的一個規定那這部分因為目前沒有這份的訊息所以目前都沒有目前沒有好來那部長我請教您當初9年前陳水扁受刑人他保外就醫的條件中間有講到4步哪4步"},{"start":8639.462,"end":8642.785,"text":"本席在上上禮拜司法法制委員會也請教次長說有沒有踩到紅線"},{"start":8658.953,"end":8686.539,"text":"他這9年來有沒有上台過 有有沒有公開演講過 有有沒有談過政治 有有沒有接受訪問 有甚至他不只接受訪問他還變成搖身一變變成了主持人訪問別人訪問我們立法院民進黨的委員甚至本席剛剛查了一下YouTube上最新影片5月19號還上傳陳水扁前總統受刑人還在訪問別人"},{"start":8690.026,"end":8695.515,"text":"社會大眾覺得他不只踩紅線還踩成紅地毯變成了一個紅龍部長怎麼看"},{"start":8700.201,"end":8722.402,"text":"這部分陳前總統的保外醫治的目前我們還是依照監獄行刑法以及那個監獄受刑人的保外醫治的一個審核基準去做處理的那有一個醫療那我們的基準有嗎?就是事不完全都已經超出那個範圍我們好像是話外之地"},{"start":8722.822,"end":8728.988,"text":"他有沒有保外醫治的這部分我們還是尊重專業醫師的所以專業醫師認為說他應該要上台他應該要演講他應該要談政治他應該要接受訪問對他身體比較好"},{"start":8736.81,"end":8761.527,"text":"有專業醫師真正的專業公文書給你們讓你們知道來來來部長部長請提供如果說有的話請提供因為過去都講說每一次把外就醫都沒有再重新的評估都是沿用如果說有的話請提供因為今天是備詢台回答的事情都要有評有據而且這個都有受到我們相關的一個"},{"start":8762.799,"end":8786.787,"text":"相關的一個紀錄來請說明報告委員有關阿扁前總統的所謂的這個事部這個是針對他個案每一次個案的一些相關的提醒那我們是尊重醫療的專業那醫師的診斷是他去參加相關的活動是對他的病情有幫助的我們尊重醫生的專業醫療曾經有給法務部過說"},{"start":8791.228,"end":8811.702,"text":"讓陳水扁上臺讓陳水扁演講 讓陳水扁談政治 讓陳水扁接受訪問是對他身體有幫助的是 有這一份醫療來 什麼時候這個我們每 比如說他要參加的活動當然他會有展言展言每一次我們也是遵守那個醫療什麼時候有這個醫療醫組直接寫 來醫組原則上他們是三個月會 我們署會"},{"start":8821.348,"end":8840.166,"text":"臺中監獄的報告本席要求在今天下班之前請提供這資料以不違反個人資料保護法跟醫療隱私提供給本席可以嗎我報告那個委員阿本總統他從4月份我們增加臺南"},{"start":8841.067,"end":8843.79,"text":"本席是說提供相關的資料以不違反病患隱私以及個資法提供這個資料 尤其你剛提到說居然"},{"start":8860.734,"end":8883.979,"text":"我們講的四部現在變成是參考然後現在又講是說這一些都是對他病情有幫助我們還需要這樣唾棉自乾嗎我們還需要為了一個受刑人把我們國家的法務部整個法務部的尊嚴都賠進去嗎我想不是這樣子吧來部長來好我聽過您的解釋來我請教部長個案的一個要求來部長部長那個可以提不可以"},{"start":8892.259,"end":8894.14,"text":"本期最後講 部長說實在話 本期沒有針對任何人"},{"start":8919.851,"end":8935.646,"text":"本席不是針對陳水扁前總統本席只有一個原則天子犯法與庶民同罪任何人受到法律制裁沒有雙重標準不應該有雙重標準這是在我們中華民國法治立場上不應該有任何的雙重標準"},{"start":8950.442,"end":8957.564,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府計畫上的官員．會長．工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生．有請正部長"},{"start":8963.362,"end":8979.827,"text":"委員好部長好我想今天大家對於一些突發的新聞事件很關心那其實我過去曾就一個司法精神鑑定來決定是否接受醫治的問題那最近就是在不久前終結的砍人事件"},{"start":8980.487,"end":9009.099,"text":"那就之前類似相關的案子我們去了解基於法規該名嫌疑犯高雄市衛生局並未證實是否有精神疾病別列管但是調閱他的就醫記錄從2020年後就一直有家人在照顧而且規律的在居住的縣市就醫跟服藥那我想詢問一個流程的問題如果用司法精神鑑定他如果不需要接受醫治者是怎麼處於那麼需接受醫治者又會怎麼樣的情況"},{"start":9013.124,"end":9039.2,"text":"這個司法這個我們最近有發生這些的一些的隨機最近可能的這個事情那也有發生這種的我想我們目前就是全力在推動那個司法精神醫院這是有行政院在統籌的那整個一個硬體的這部分的設施這些這是由衛福部在主管那我們保護部部長你問得太超前了你答得太超前了啦"},{"start":9039.96,"end":9060.534,"text":"如果他需要醫治者才會進入到監護處分是不是這樣那我看下一頁你就幫我講出來了齁其實呢如果我們不確定那個個案我說以其他已經發生的個案如果是這樣的話那要來確保社會安全彌補這個法制漏洞那目前呢不管是監護處分或暗示那時候都說安置處分齁大概有這四個一個一個階段"},{"start":9062.557,"end":9063.698,"text":"監護處分如何確保不會有危害社會的風險?"},{"start":9081.584,"end":9105.921,"text":"建戶重範園43我們最近有修法本來就是在5年以下那最近修法就是有可以展延因為我們希望能夠互歸社會那互歸就是因為建戶就是要監督保護的意思到居宿到身體人生的一個自由那我們希望能夠互歸社會之前能夠完全的一個"},{"start":9107.121,"end":9107.501,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9127.458,"end":9144.136,"text":"介護期間接受治療的時候我們的介護人力是否充足也就在不久之前一名殺人未遂犯他在基隆某醫院進行5年的監護卻趁性逃離根據保安處分執行法第15條他有這樣的一個說明那請問這個基隆醫院是一般醫院還是介護專屬醫院這個是"},{"start":9149.115,"end":9173.966,"text":"市長請協助說明他不是一般醫院他是精神專科的醫院他是精神專科醫院那是不是我們的所謂監護專屬醫院他是專門收這方面的病人那跟我們之前我們要求要設立的一個司法精神病院有什麼不一樣他不是目前我們正在規劃的精神他不是目前所謂的監護專屬醫院對不是但是他是專門"},{"start":9175.742,"end":9177.823,"text":"兼務專屬醫院目前進度怎麼樣專屬醫院的部分目前在正在建置當中預計可能要到"},{"start":9195.728,"end":9199.532,"text":"本來是規劃在高雄凱旋醫院本來在今年他要成為全台第一個可設置擺裝病床的司法精神病院對不對"},{"start":9213.007,"end":9241.154,"text":"那目前你說要到2026年115年專門醫院的部分要到116年委員講的是指病房專屬病房的部分那請教部長或次長那在過渡之前你如何加強他的安全措施跟委員報告我們現在專屬的病房跟病床部分事實上已經開始收治了剛剛委員有提到那部分對所以我才問你們啊因為之前我剛剛前面一個就問到說在基隆有人逃脫啦"},{"start":9242.145,"end":9243.441,"text":"那怎麼辦?部長你覺得呢?"},{"start":9246.039,"end":9274.386,"text":"目前那個在收治就是精神病房只有高雄的凱旋醫院應該有30床那另外因為這個需求基隆的他是一般醫院他不是精神科專屬醫院他是屬於醫療機構裡面有精神科的設置病房那這部分當然我發生這些我們是很痛心但是我們有沒有會出個檢討報告我們會去做一個那麼請多久之內可以送給我們這個我們目前就是希望就是在"},{"start":9275.126,"end":9294.442,"text":"在監護的處所的這部分他那個收治的這些的針對本事件擴大了全面性的強化過渡時期尤其要拖到2027年你們這段時間不管是專屬醫院還是病房你們怎麼樣去做一個全盤的落實他的介護跟委員報告我想我們這個會再做一個檢討那這個給我們一些時間多少時間"},{"start":9297.827,"end":9313.825,"text":"跟委員報告關於這個事件其實我們本部已經發函要求所屬的假機關現在去全面去檢視目前大概多久已經發函要求所屬假機關都去檢視目前那你們要有一個時間給我們本院嘛給本委員會嘛可以嗎委員報告我們部分檢討報告嗎對"},{"start":9315.896,"end":9319.077,"text":"明天處理打詐專法當中的洗錢防治法"},{"start":9335.023,"end":9335.183,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9352.771,"end":9353.932,"text":"事後去追查的成效遠不如事前臨跪阻擋的來得快,您看怎麼辦?"},{"start":9368.64,"end":9397.195,"text":"目前齁目前在懲詐這部分我們對查扣的這部分我們也臺高檢有一個一個為什麼為什麼你們雖然有成長但是遠不如事前林貴關懷主詐的來的效果那那個那個那個懲詐這部分我們已經回到有12億多了齁所以主詐不是外委員提到這個主詐主詐這邊林貴這部分我想這部分主詐我不用你回答那是金融機構的事情我說您的事後查扣的部分事後查扣的部分現在已經有返還的已經換賬我們一個有一個臺高檢我有一個換賬"},{"start":9397.875,"end":9397.895,"text":"動產、不動產、虛擬貨幣"},{"start":9418.223,"end":9419.484,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9442.819,"end":9442.979,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9459.907,"end":9460.487,"text":"所以你們自己並沒有去從這些追回"},{"start":9488.567,"end":9488.587,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":9518.018,"end":9537.182,"text":"找到問題的癥結沒有我們在努力因為我想我們在科技化嘛科技化那個我想我在北檢的時候我們有查到那個虛擬貨幣的一個一個虛擬的貨幣的交易商是加入的那另外其實最近查獲的這些的的兆團案件幾乎我知道就是用虛擬貨幣來洗錢洗票部長"},{"start":9539.643,"end":9558.252,"text":"這個我本來是暗示你現在直接明示你啦剛剛有委員從財政委特別來本席之前也在財政委會你們現在急迫需要的是透過金融機關在虛擬資產的管理上建立一個制度讓你們就像去銀行去主詐或者追抽過賬款的時候有一個issue可以有一個證據證明這是詐款"},{"start":9560.293,"end":9560.553,"text":"金融機構金官協助"},{"start":9590.393,"end":9590.934,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9616.45,"end":9638.9,"text":"事實上臺高檢在我們這個平台已經對四大國內四大的交易所必項交易所已經有建立相關的平台機制講關切上網就可以可以在電腦裡面查到是相關的交易所的交易紀錄了目前已經可以了是的其實呢目前我們希望這四大還是民間的啦他目前也不是正式納入我們金融監理機關的監管所以你們應該趕快的要求金融"},{"start":9640.117,"end":9640.277,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9663.456,"end":9663.516,"text":"謝謝教委：謝謝部長"},{"start":9692.943,"end":9698.848,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9734.445,"end":9742.263,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9772.041,"end":9793.641,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9801.923,"end":9802.684,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9813.975,"end":9814.756,"text":"好 現在繼續開會"},{"start":9839.797,"end":9862.247,"text":"好處理臨時提案共議案那請宣讀宣讀後再進行處理臨時提案一修正本略以要求法務部於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告內容應並含一演繹公開之新聞檢討報告並適度透露檢討結論使能澄清檢討之力度非僅單純之統計數字二演繹是否將禁止採訪區擴及相約辦公室令開記者"},{"start":9867.589,"end":9868.409,"text":"好臨時提案第一案請提案委員補充說明"},{"start":9897.237,"end":9897.478,"text":"主席"},{"start":9914.155,"end":9914.175,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":9930.912,"end":9950.064,"text":"被告那我去了解一下當時扣案的金額、細節、扣案的東西報導的所述的內容竟然跟他在他家扣到的東西一模一樣那這就是顯然是有人把偵查的秘密洩漏出去"},{"start":9952.199,"end":9980.037,"text":"那因為之前的蔡部長他有提到說這可能是警察洩密但是我也刻意去找了幾件懲辦的單位不是調查官就是廉政署那如果說指揮偵辦案件是檢察官懲辦的機關是廉政署或調查官那法務部是沒辦法再推給任何人那之前的蔡部長又說可能是律師洩漏出去那我說這完全不合邏輯哪一個被告的律師會把對自己不利益的東西盡量講出去"},{"start":9980.657,"end":9980.857,"text":"法務部部長"},{"start":10002.108,"end":10002.608,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10032.608,"end":10033.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10054.522,"end":10054.702,"text":"請機關針對臨時提案做回覆"},{"start":10078.805,"end":10104.73,"text":"臨時提案我們建議刪除第二點其餘決議三的內容我們都沒有意見我們就刪除第二是不是可以這樣好就第二點的部分那沒有問題就是依照部長的建議但是我是希望說部長我們第一點如果你們數據一直沒有給我們那我們到最後只好要求第二點但在這之前我覺得我很樂意接受部長這個建議好謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":10107.864,"end":10123.126,"text":"好 謝謝那在這裡主席也做個說明因為本席在3月18號的時候就本項議題也提出過質詢當時要求法務部要在3個月內提出一個書面報告"},{"start":10124.349,"end":10150.806,"text":"那3個月到現在就是6月18號那現在吳釗偉提出是在2個月內提出檢討及精進報告這些內容也是本席在3月18號的時候提出的相關質詢的內容涵蓋在內那因為吳釗偉又加了第一項嘛那是不是我也徵求這個提案委員是不是在6月底前因為你們已經本來在6月18號就要交給委員會啦"},{"start":10153.151,"end":10155.612,"text":"修正後照修正本通過改成把2個月內改成6月底前"},{"start":10180.575,"end":10194.4,"text":"那其他的就如同剛剛機關所報告的好那麼剛剛就一討論後一修正文字通過了那接下來我們進行是吳委員施堯請質詢謝謝有請部長請政部長"},{"start":10208.208,"end":10231.722,"text":"委員好部長早安觀察了您一早今天的這個執行台上的表現我覺得不錯很好謝謝委員有為有所該說明就說明我也希望未來在司法法制委員會能夠保持這樣的互動但是司法法制委員會在我認為我過去都在教育文化領域那這個會是因為是幹部的關係那就到司法法制委員會來學習"},{"start":10233.323,"end":10255.357,"text":"事上我認為司法法制是最最需要專業的一個專業領域只是比較遺憾在這個會期的司法法制變成是高度政治性所以我在這裡藉由新部長的上任也其免所有法務部的同仁我們還是言所當言為所當為即便昨天被二讀通過了藐視國會罪"},{"start":10256.798,"end":10280.519,"text":"但是大家只要是站在正確論述政策的立場我覺得民意是站在我們這一邊這比什麼都更重要那您手上還有另外的考驗也在這裡一併提醒就是說在司法法制委員會裡頭我非常同意剛剛吳宗憲教委所提的我們如何讓真正的偵查不公開要做到位很多制度上的精進確實要檢視"},{"start":10282.461,"end":10310.873,"text":"但是您也要在立法院的這個這個要捍衛住頂得住壓力因為我常常也發現政治人物也是逼迫我們的檢查人員去被迫要公開部分偵查中的進度你們要扛得住壓力好嗎?謝謝委員提醒以及還有針對昨天所通過的這個立法院質詢行使法的第47條我不曉得部長你看了條文了沒有?"},{"start":10311.833,"end":10336.586,"text":"當中就是針對在立法院可以成立調查委員會或調查專案小組來行使調查權但是呢他要適用的對象除了政府機關部隊法人團體社會上有關係人員要在5天內提供相關的文件資料檔案給立法院的調閱委員會或調查小組而且如果是這些文件呢是原本就是在司法機關或監察機關先為調取"},{"start":10338.854,"end":10352.199,"text":"也要續名理由要提供副本這就我認為這不是違反大法官誓字585號嗎我們認為這個也是要合乎憲法的規範是所以這樣一個條文合乎憲法嗎"},{"start":10354.141,"end":10358.765,"text":"這個條文當然我們未來雖然二讀通過但未來我們會進行其他大法官釋憲的憲法法庭的一些救濟"},{"start":10375.738,"end":10397.539,"text":"在我們認為偵查不公開就扣著剛剛講的偵查不公開事實上在行使調查權限的時候只要是在偵辦當中的案件就是排除在外這是憲法非常清楚告訴我們的限制所以我想有為有守是重要的如果您心中非常清楚知道違憲"},{"start":10399.462,"end":10401.643,"text":"這也是一個倡議多時的是不是國家司法科學委員會有沒有可能來成立杜絕冤案"},{"start":10424.037,"end":10427.82,"text":"建定錯誤造成誤判我們都希望不要再有下一個冤案"},{"start":10454.397,"end":10476.995,"text":"這個是這兩年發生的事左邊呢更是我認為社會大家很關切的幾個被判死刑但最後都被檢視發現是原鑑定報告出現了科學上的誤判所以江國慶已經執行死刑了"},{"start":10477.535,"end":10503.594,"text":"即便後續平反了他但是國賠給他1億多蘇建和徐自強鄭幸澤等三案都是被判死刑但也都因為原來的鑑定報告發生了嚴重的錯誤需要導正所以平反了他們的罪行也必須透過國賠來平反他們在獄中的"},{"start":10504.571,"end":10529.06,"text":"因為誤判因為鑑定的專業性出了狀況那這樣子怎麼來解決呢下一頁所以鑑定的制度要改革民間團體力推多年我想這都是您長期一起合作的法界的朋友所以民間司改會一直說要建立各科學領域司法鑑定的標準作業流程SOP而且鑑定的品質要在法庭內受"},{"start":10529.52,"end":10529.8,"text":"．則公正性的建定組織或機構．"},{"start":10554.754,"end":10575.521,"text":"不只民間倡議司法的國是會議司改國是會議也有這樣子的一個結論要設立一個獨立機關在政策面教育面認證面都來強化整個科學證據的總體的品質包括他還有證照制度實驗室跟專家之間的認證規範就這個獨立機關不曉得新任部長政部長您的看法如何"},{"start":10580.963,"end":10583.024,"text":"現在確實是要研議把現在法務部下的法醫研究所來做一個調整"},{"start":10606.209,"end":10614.976,"text":"成為法務部下的國家司法研究院下的司法科學委員會是這樣跟民間所倡議的還有這個司改國是會議所倡議的應當是一個獨立的機關可能位階要高一些你這樣的現行方案夠嗎"},{"start":10629.353,"end":10649.012,"text":"這個笑聲有點讓我很想探尋一下部長您的立場就是我目前國家司法科學院的組織法查案已經報行政院那行政院羅政委也經過兩次的審查我們在上個月的4月23號也"},{"start":10651.241,"end":10657.705,"text":"國家司法科學研究院的組織法代表我們就要成立這樣一個司法研究院那因為我沒有看到法案啊我不知道他的位階獨立性是如何"},{"start":10679.598,"end":10698.622,"text":"對 我們再把那個草案送給委員來查下一頁那部長您的看法到底如何呢是under在你們司法部下剛剛你們規範的設想的那個方向好還是能夠真的是一個國家層級的司法科學委員會因為他是非常跨領域的喔"},{"start":10699.022,"end":10717.471,"text":"他必須含納人權心理法律醫學腦科學形式鑑識的科學專家他要負責政策面教育面認證面的事項他會更涉及跨部會啦您覺得呢就一個新任部長當然羅政委的那個法案那個草案這就是每一個新任部長會碰到的問題"},{"start":10718.371,"end":10736.042,"text":"但是您在檢查體系這麼久您個人認為您今天容認了部長您對於這樣一個在院裡頭還在cooking可能會最終定案的版本你認為你接受現在行政院的方向嗎就是過去法務部的演繹的方向嗎"},{"start":10737.002,"end":10759.07,"text":"我現在是以這個目前的這個來做一個推動那我個人是認為說這個應該目前能夠推到這樣我認為是可以的先求有再求好我想這個有沒有權利再推動至於那個他未決是要在法務部之上那個是獨立出來的另外那個可以再去討論"},{"start":10760.911,"end":10787.11,"text":"您應該很多民間司改會的朋友或是過去參與國是會議的過程當中的這些記錄啊過程你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來再來好再來演繹我到最後一頁我的主張來不見了最後一頁吳思耀的主張好今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎"},{"start":10791.1,"end":10818.302,"text":"要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何"},{"start":10821.556,"end":10822.877,"text":"司法及法制委員會主管列席報告"},{"start":10844.031,"end":10862.219,"text":"目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的政策沒問題我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在under在法務部下我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的"},{"start":10863.78,"end":10866.481,"text":"選擇他的專業性﹐他的跨領域﹐他的法制作業﹐跟他的人才培育﹐他的認證制度﹐包括專家跟實驗室間的﹐要整套那不是為了組織而組織﹐我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好"},{"start":10882.166,"end":10908.066,"text":"主席發揮他的效應他必要的專業性提升我們的證據力可信讓司法真的是一個完備的可信我想這個都是可以討論的我絕對不是說為了獨立而一定要因為一個獨立機關但是其他配套做不好他也不一定能夠run的好那後續我希望部長能夠把他作為一個本期後續跟您對話一個非常重要的議題政策我們後續一起大家跨黨派一起來討論好 謝謝部長"},{"start":10911.657,"end":10924.863,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長 謝謝次長好 先處理會議時間 上午會議時間繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢"},{"start":10937.708,"end":10938.91,"text":"王國興次長王國興次長王國興次長"},{"start":10958.328,"end":10977,"text":"部長先給你恭喜新官上任到上任以後倒也不一定說要雞把火但是確實要做出國人期待的一個趁機我相信每一個當部長又是新任人都想大展身手我今天對於剛剛那個"},{"start":10981.477,"end":10998.166,"text":"吳宗憲召委他將來一個提案其實我也有感而發了那比如說大家都知道說偵查不公開我們在這一次在我們在修法的時候國會的聽證跟調查權的部分我們也一直在力抗"},{"start":10999.567,"end":11026.67,"text":"這個藍白聯手的對於民間或者機構這一些聽證跟調查部分要提供資料這個部分尤其是只要司法機關介入的時候立法院手連碰都不能碰但是我們昨天有通過的條文裡面還是要去提供副本這個到最後大家有得吵可是我有感而發的是什麼我們在立法院就是力阻偵查中案件要讓"},{"start":11028.091,"end":11033.265,"text":"偵查機關讓他有獨立辦案的一個空間可是動不動就會看這個"},{"start":11036.851,"end":11063.828,"text":"故意刻意去流出訊息比如說手機對話的內容搜索的那種情況那這個社會都會討論每一次在國會裡面提出來你們就說要去檢討你們的檢討都不好都不好你們都是食物界的做得怎麼樣做得怎麼樣做得怎麼樣這個就是有人放消息"},{"start":11065.322,"end":11092.917,"text":"這真的不好不管任何人執政我都認為不好我從大學我從開始我還沒有進入法律系就讀我到這個去當律師以後我發現你檢察官你們很多人都在搞朋友嘛到底是誰?局長你現在要再來發威啊嘛齁局長你認為是你們的嫌疑比較大還是檢察官嫌疑比較大?局長你說什麼來"},{"start":11095.5,"end":11112.444,"text":"跟中委員報告,有關於偵查不公開,我們第二局在各次的宣導還有我們專案在執行的時候,我們都是三令五申,我們絕對遵守偵查不公開三令五申就不好,我跟外國年輕人說到現在我幾歲了,我已經聽了幾十年了"},{"start":11116.855,"end":11142.105,"text":"你有沒有主動去揭露我都知道那個心態那個心態就是有時候為了鞏固後來辦案的方便過去那是老派的做法媒體就給你揭露說等一下我要去生壓法院比較能夠認同這個辦案手法其實我覺得不用世衛大眾真的當然他有知的權利"},{"start":11143.188,"end":11172.59,"text":"不能說什麼案子都到你檢察官那邊去什麼都什麼超級重大的案件老百姓全部都不知道你有辦沒辦人家也都不知道公開你們那個那個揭露的原則你們自己部裡面都自己都有定可是如果到最後連當事人你看人家那個簡訊截圖搜索的現場那個有時候真的要特別小心所以我一直在想會接觸到的是你說警察警察不要打啦不然搞到便宜委他知道的訊息也不會那麼多啦"},{"start":11174.244,"end":11176.347,"text":"會去做徵訊筆錄的第一個當然就是你們調查局啊對不對 啊剛才你說藍不是我抬的 一定是到那個檢察官那 那個B你不要說抗議罰金他不可能啦 書記官也沒那麼大膽啦"},{"start":11186.918,"end":11212.423,"text":"跟委員報告有一些案件不單純是調查局的同仁在處理有的時候是有多個單位一起來偵辦那當然但是就調查局而言我們絕對要求同仁遵守偵查不公開而且如果有發現有同仁違反的話我們一定是嚴懲可是你們就懲不出來啊我們常常看到媒體披露的部分就是筆錄你那個都是已經是偵查當中你連那筆錄都已經都照出來啊你不覺得這樣好奇怪嗎"},{"start":11216.66,"end":11237.898,"text":"跟委員報告,並沒有有筆錄外洩的情況,那個筆錄流出去那是當事人刻意去偷拍,那這個部分我們也贊助當事人的責任,我們有這個來報請移送給紀檢署來偵辦這個都要弄得很清楚啦,阿不然這個對司法來講的話,人家會質疑你,說唉唷你們刻意變成好像是打擊政敵"},{"start":11242.302,"end":11265.939,"text":"政治攻防到彼此都可以講但是涉及到民間企業我那就麻煩了那有時候影響到整個企業之間的一個競爭這個我覺得新部長上來這個要特別小心了這個這個次長你也很清楚啊我們這個討論的多久了好不好那局長請回那我必須要接下來要請教那次長也先請回"},{"start":11267.523,"end":11292.401,"text":"我必須要來請教部長的就是說國人對於政府的一個政策尤其是我們法務部有包有扁那其中在打詐這個部分國人不滿意的你應該很清楚這個部分國人真的是不滿意一直以來也都有很大的一個雜音都認為我們法務部檢警機關做得不夠要繼續去做努力小英政府"},{"start":11293.261,"end":11319.319,"text":"最後的半年裡面我非常清楚行政院提出這個打詐的一個專法那法務部也成立了工作小組同時在今年2月召開了三次的一個工作小組的一個會議邀請懲詐相關的機關去開會那這個部分我也非常清楚但是我要先救教部長就是說你現在對於這個打詐的態度跟法務部未來整體的政策的一個走向"},{"start":11320.075,"end":11347.646,"text":"會不會去延續陳建仁院長或者說我們蔡前部長的這樣一個方向目前打詐現在是打起詐欺車的行動剛才是1.5版那從1.0到1.5現在是要進入到2.0版那我想這個重點重點我們是這個打詐的一些的量我想是一直在累積中那我想這三期最重要的就是"},{"start":11348.286,"end":11362.379,"text":"在整個打造司法能夠立法通過讓我們這些在法制面可以給我們那個檢察官跟司法警察機構有更多的一些的偵查的手段以及嚇阻"},{"start":11363.56,"end":11388.237,"text":"整個一個詐團詐欺者的這些的一些的這些的犯罪的一個動機那另外另外我想這個我們在各而且各方面因為打在1005版也是四個面向去做處理那我想我們在做一個源頭管理這邊我們逐步去落實就譬如說我們那個那個虛擬貨幣的這部分我們現在已經推動了登記制了希望而且調取這個資料能夠更方便能夠讓這個詐團的這些的這些的"},{"start":11393.621,"end":11396.003,"text":"國人其實他的要求就很簡單有沒有辦法去遏止但是我覺得遏止不容易人們都要這麼討論趨利"},{"start":11416.704,"end":11444.234,"text":"要做多少人太多了啦刑法你去把他弄得很重的話在本席看來都未必有用反而是怎麼樣去加強快速的去破案來達到惡質的一個效用那事實上你在打造司法當中科技偵查跟保障法是4年前法務部就已經預告過的草案那些草案其實有爭議你也很非常清楚那過去最大的爭議就是說不符合法官審理同意後檢方或者司法警察機關"},{"start":11445.672,"end":11467.51,"text":"這個有院方必須要去做最後的一個裁決的過去的版本裡面你像比如說我們司法警察跟檢察官可以針對非隱私空間包括陽台還有庭院這些人或物必要時可以使用科技設備監看拍照甚至於錄音錄影跟案件無關的人你也可以去涵蓋去調查不需要向法院申請許可"},{"start":11472.805,"end":11487.275,"text":"人權基本保障要特別去小心比如說用空拍機累積超過30天才報請檢察官核准累積超過2個月才須向法院申請許可這些爭議點"},{"start":11489.588,"end":11514.89,"text":"當然你後來提出以後後來都有改善我們也都清楚了但是像在公共空間裡面檢警在收證的時候只能連續20小時或者共計兩天超過的話這個部分就是保留給法院那你這個M化車還有手機通訊監察部分那當然現在都是法院嘛都是法院嘛本席認為法務部的查案其實已經有很大的一個改善了"},{"start":11515.53,"end":11527.2,"text":"所以我想請教部長說這四個已經送到立法院的打詐專法裡面你認為有沒有需要再修正的地方還是會用法務部現在你現行的版本"},{"start":11529.776,"end":11550.428,"text":"打造司法行政院都已經審查通過了那近期應該會送到立法院來審議了那我們想這個版本我們這已經經過多方的一個討論廣大意見已經形成了那剛才委員有提到就是有關人權有疑慮這邊我們拿掉像木馬城市那邊也都拿掉了"},{"start":11550.988,"end":11554.309,"text":"施法法制委員會本來是最冷門的委員會但這一屆全部都是明星來這裡亂了也有灰也有很多我告訴你很簡單誠懇"},{"start":11572.622,"end":11582.36,"text":"很務實我相信不管各黨各派啊大家到最後都還是可以除了少數以外啦大家都會把你們倒上庭嘛你是國家的門面"},{"start":11583.752,"end":11603.522,"text":"你說強力去做一個執法打擊犯罪這本來就是你們最基本要去做的事情嘛要什麼樣的一個武器那確實沒有侵害人權餘力的國會這個地方倒是很好溝通一個地方最後要請教的就是說本期在針對上週排審的階幣者保護法裡面我也提出一些疑問"},{"start":11604.542,"end":11626.897,"text":"在去詢問整個法務部那在第10屆法務部跟行政院都有邀集各民間還有去討論那從整個接避者法務法裡面你看到立法的一個嚴格早從101年聯政署那個時候開始立法研究到105年小英政府上來也開了很多的一個會議"},{"start":11627.757,"end":11650.641,"text":"到了108年行政院通過了這個接避者保護法草案並送到立法院但是因為藉其不連續但是我想請問的就是說目前對於接避者保護啊政府的整體的政策到底是怎麼樣是不是延續先前的公部門先行私部門的部分行政指導的部分的方向去做"},{"start":11659.434,"end":11671.023,"text":"公部門公部門這部分的確是沒有比較沒有爭議比較有共識的老小有共識的部分先做先做那四部門因為我們國內的企業有大中小企業尤其我們中小企業高達"},{"start":11673.364,"end":11689.498,"text":"這部分的確爭議性大家各方意見分層那我們希望一個法案能夠有可行性要廣納意見那我想這個部分我們可以再做行政指導就跟委員剛才所講的就行政指導我們先行"},{"start":11689.918,"end":11691.219,"text":"最後其實也鼓勵我們新的政部長未來你要面臨的狀況"},{"start":11714.652,"end":11714.772,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11734.762,"end":11746.887,"text":"說服朝野說服民眾啦加油啦好謝謝委員謝謝莊委員謝謝曾部長接下來有請徐委員欣迎質詢徐委員欣迎徐委員欣不在有請吳釗緯中線質詢"},{"start":11766.411,"end":11793.84,"text":"好謝謝那我們麻煩部長還有次長有請鄭部長以及黃次長委員好部長好次長好我想說因為我自己來這邊三個多月我以來我的質詢我不會去做無理的質詢因為畢竟我們對這些對檢查業務應該算是熟悉所以我質詢會都是針對我覺得針對有問題的地方然後大家來做討論"},{"start":11798.326,"end":11822.744,"text":"現在我這邊我想先提一個東西因為我到這邊來比較辛苦一件事是常常要幫大家上法律課那我在這邊也要再提醒一個東西要再幫各位委員上一次法律課就是剛剛因為吳世耀委員他有提到一個點而且是對部長說那我個人認為那個是違反現行制度的所以我這邊要提醒一下就是說他剛剛吳世耀委員確實有提到"},{"start":11823.825,"end":11831.257,"text":"我們在審查立法自宣新司法昨天就立法部分有有就47條48條去討論嘛那因為他剛剛講的一個點說"},{"start":11837.09,"end":11838.591,"text":"違憲與否不是法務不認定"},{"start":11856.707,"end":11879.484,"text":"沒問題 我們可以認為說有違憲之語但是我們法務部沒有權利說我認為這條文有違憲之語所以我不處理惡法 異法 這我們念法律的人都知道嘛那我其實我很喜歡跟真正法律人或實務界人我們來討論法律因為大家都會在一個水準之上去討論法律不會亂講但是來這裡有時候我跟一些人我覺得很辛苦就是"},{"start":11880.385,"end":11904.792,"text":"他跟你談法律但是他胡說八道然後我們必須花很多時間去跟他說法律規定這樣他又變不相信說你在亂講所以我想說部長次長應該能夠理解我說的嗎以法務部的立場以檢察官的立場他不能自行認定說這條法律違憲所以我不做對不對二法一法我想我想兩位應該理解我在說什麼嗎是部長是要理解"},{"start":11905.834,"end":11905.894,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":11924.008,"end":11945.959,"text":"所以說即便是院方法官在審理案子的時候認為這個條文有違憲之餘院方法官也只能停止訴訟來申請釋憲部長是這樣嗎?是那所以絕對不存在說我們法務部在執行法律的時候認為有違憲之餘我就不做我想說這部分我可能跟兩位"},{"start":11946.839,"end":11971.025,"text":"說明甚至報告也可以跟兩位說剛剛吳教委那個建議真是萬萬不可那是違反法制的再跟兩位說明一下這個部分所以說我們法律人常講二法一法如果遇到不好的法律遇到違憲我們能積極的作為就是趕快拜託立法院修法或趕快找管道例如說立法委員去申請釋憲我想這才是正確的法制做法"},{"start":11972.125,"end":11973.348,"text":"政策不公開"},{"start":11982.617,"end":12010.658,"text":"有關這偵查不公開的部分我想部長你在擔任那個聯政署署長的時候其實有提到就是就是有其實蠻積極主張這個那個接避者保護法嘛對不對我們部長有推動對那其實接避者保護法其實一個很重要的點就是我們要讓知道有不好事情的人能夠勇於揭發我想這個這個是沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":12011.278,"end":12029.209,"text":"對,是他立法就是要保護那個接避者嘛是,就是避免說有一些接避者他在接避之後他不會說身家受影響或工作受影響我想這個是這個法律的立法目的我覺得這個應該不是沒有應該沒有什麼問題"},{"start":12030.951,"end":12042.803,"text":"再加上我剛剛其實在臨時提案的時候我有提到很多時候是被調查人的名譽的問題因為你我都知道有很多案子其實我們查到最後發現是烏龍一場"},{"start":12044.821,"end":12068.572,"text":"但是前階段因為違反偵查不公開的泄密行為已經讓他很慘了那我之前在這個地方有跟所有的人報告過我以前自己偵辦案件的實際例子是我辦貪污罪條例他只是基層公務員然後案子來他只是一個他治案而已但是因為案由是貪污罪條例他來之後我跟他問完案子而且我是"},{"start":12069.292,"end":12069.492,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12088.408,"end":12105.282,"text":"因為那張船票上面是貪污諸位條例他講長官嚇得半死他家裡面的人也嚇得半死那長官馬上把他移位置移到別的那個比較邊邊去比較不重要的位置那我的意思是這樣因為那個東西對我來說我的印象很深刻"},{"start":12105.862,"end":12120.641,"text":"所以後來我自己在帶學籍司法官的時候我都會拿這個例子告訴我帶過的每一位學籍司法官因為你法官檢察官一個不經意的動作甚至一張傳票你就害慘了一個人的一輩子更何況違反偵查不公開"},{"start":12122.003,"end":12139.163,"text":"我在這邊我沒有要替任何一位就是誰我們不講特定個案好了今天不管是民間企業不管是政治人物甚至是私人甚至是家庭糾紛都有可能因為我們違反偵查不公開而受害甚至被社會公審"},{"start":12140.604,"end":12162.757,"text":"那部長跟次長你也知道其實有很多例子都是這樣前面社會已經把他罵到社會死了後面發現狀況原來不是這樣所以請部長、次長一定要非常非常非常用心我們來改善這個偵查不公開的問題尤其是特定媒體總是在執行後馬上把大量資料丟出來"},{"start":12163.377,"end":12188.585,"text":"那個資料detail的細節已經到不可能一般人會知道的程度就像我剛剛跟兩位報告我去問過當事人他連他家扣多少錢都知道而且不是地檢署發的新聞稿他沒有辦法接受啊在他的保險箱裡面那幾本護照都知道我覺得這是不對的再麻煩兩位能夠盡量這塊那下一頁那譬如說我們在講最近"},{"start":12189.585,"end":12216.719,"text":"最近發生這個詐騙集團的案子這個案子其實不好意思這案子其實很重傷我們司法圈因為扯到法官扯到檢察官連檢察官法官都涉入進去了那律師也一群都涉入在裡面那你看譬如說像這一張這張監視器的畫面這個是院方的監視器拍到的那"},{"start":12217.895,"end":12243.911,"text":"院方有沒有可能給?當然有可能啊但是這我也是擔心是不是檢方流出去的因為院方他會隨便給記者來要監視器就給嘛其實我是打一個問號所以這個案子雖然我沒有辦法說是檢方洩漏偵查的資料但是也許這是讓我們去反省因為一次一次這樣的事情發生讓民眾對我們的信任度越來越低對司法的信任度越來越低那"},{"start":12244.531,"end":12245.111,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12261.677,"end":12283.749,"text":"兩位以前也接辦過就是檢舉同仁的案子我以前宿攤的時候也辦很多檢舉同仁的案子如果這個洩出去對同仁是傷害多重所以我還是覺得至少我在這邊這四年我一定會盯緊政黨的部分因為這個對官員對公務員對民眾都是很大的風險存在"},{"start":12285.046,"end":12303.743,"text":"那我們再往下看齁那這段時間我有發現一個狀況就是依據偵查不公開的檢討小組我發現這段時間他檢討出來的數字其實是很狀況是很不好的雖然我們檢討的件數很多可是就108到112年其實我們機關內部查處人數是零"},{"start":12308.769,"end":12332.603,"text":"每一個案子都洩露的這麼的徹底我們不要講遠的案子就講這一次這個有法官檢察官涉入的這個炸雞集團的案子他就把內部多少資料都流出來了那這個難道法務部可以不去用心去處理嗎那再來還有一個問題是我想要提到比較實務面的就是"},{"start":12333.854,"end":12361.254,"text":"我們雖然一直有說對於媒體記者跟檢察官的之間的這個問題管制要不要把它處理好因為我們都知道嘛現在檢察官都是兩三個人一間或三四個人一間那我們現在的櫃子都放不下都只能我以前當檢察官的時候我幾乎就是在圈海裡面嘛桌上櫃子全滿地上也都是滿滿的走路還要跨過那個圈來走路那"},{"start":12361.934,"end":12378.708,"text":"今天如果我們沒有很嚴格的去管制記者跟甲官來約訪那個拜訪的時候那這記者經理辦公室是可以翻你的卷的那常常我們有時候去外勤去內勤或去開庭人不在辦公室"},{"start":12379.409,"end":12379.529,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":12398.905,"end":12398.925,"text":"規範出來規範"},{"start":12417.551,"end":12418.232,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12433.831,"end":12434.071,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12454.045,"end":12483.126,"text":"你要查幕後首腦很難查但是我們做源頭的管理就查那個帳戶那一樣我們要查到底是誰洩密真的不容易那我們是不是可以去從他可能消息來源的那個管道去控一下就是記者跟檢察官之間的那個狀況那我們是不是可以讓記者要找檢察官不是不行但你要確認那個檢察官在由那個檢察官負責從頭到尾的接待否則他會不會再怎麼做我不清楚"},{"start":12484.266,"end":12500.802,"text":"拜託就是不要讓偵查不公開變成是偵查大公開或變成一些特定的媒體他每次那個新聞出來都很傷人好不好那部長可以嗎就是能夠依照我們今天也提的那個臨時動議去處理"},{"start":12502.108,"end":12502.368,"text":"陳委員峻宇質詢"},{"start":12539.909,"end":12556.043,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請鄭部長請鄭部長部長早部長午安首先恭喜部長承擔起我們法務部的這個重責大任那我看過去部長的"},{"start":12558.018,"end":12581.332,"text":"這個經歷在廉政跟這個檢查體系都有豐富的資歷跟經驗那對於法務部的相關業務應該可以馬上上手那有鑒於我們現在社會大眾目前對於司法的這種信任度跟滿意度的不夠理想那本席也期待在您上任之後的這個法務部能夠盡快做出讓民眾有感的司法改革"},{"start":12581.952,"end":12590.603,"text":"那在這裡我想先請教部長跟您聊聊在您上任後的100天您最希望能夠完成什麼樣的目標"},{"start":12592.637,"end":12620.493,"text":"我想要我們民眾最痛恨的就是就總統有講的就是黑金槍獨炸那我想我們在北內我們是希望能夠交出一個第一次的成績單出來那另外在法案的推動我們希望能夠能夠在立法院我們能夠趕緊去進入到法條的一個一個法案的一個審查這是我最期待的這個打炸四法這個是給"},{"start":12621.874,"end":12622.174,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12641.124,"end":12659.884,"text":"那就剛剛部長您回答的那在這個520就職典禮上確實賴清德總統還有之前這個就是接任的這個卓榮泰院長都已經公開宣誓過了新政府要積極的打擊這個黑金槍毒和詐騙這是施政的一個重點"},{"start":12660.825,"end":12682.819,"text":"所以也請部長一定要去落實能夠在100天內有一個好的成績從近期的這個媒體所公布的民調結果民眾最關心的就是詐騙防制的問題部長您先前在這個臺北地檢署相信最了解這個基層被海量的詐騙案詐欺案所淹沒的情況"},{"start":12683.74,"end":12705.122,"text":"那部長您認為我們除了人力的這個緣額增補之外我們應該要怎樣來協助檢察官能夠在合理的這個工作量下也兼顧打詐的這個量呢那其實我在當檢察長的經驗的確我們案件每年就逐步的一個成長不過現在我們在整個一個打詐的一個"},{"start":12706.178,"end":12735.089,"text":"一個一個一個制度的一個一個整合吼那我們有可以看到其實炸團的案件吼其實有現在現在還高原期現在有要穩下來有下降的一個趨勢吼因為我們有一個全國那個人頭賬戶的一個總歸戶的一個制度吼而不會散落到這些詐欺的案件不會散落到各地吼各個地檢署那我們就是以被告的一個戶籍所在地那個分區我們集中"},{"start":12735.709,"end":12762.154,"text":"在一段時間我們在整個移送一個偵辦那我想這個已經發生一個很好的一個效果這可以有把這個案件的這個降低而且讓這個可以勾結各個被害人跟詐團之間的一個被騙的一個過程可以讓這個案件可以更好的一個更有效的一個偵辦那另外我們有一個落實那個立案審查我們有立案審查這個以杯檢為例可以消化兩成多的一個"},{"start":12763.214,"end":12790.791,"text":"案件所以北檢可以檢查可以集中這些心力這些能量去辦更有更大的一個犯罪那我想這部分有做一個比較有效性的當然還有很多的一個制度包括我們一些的AI智慧的一個輔助系統我想都可以幫助我們檢查減少這個這些案件那另外還有檢察官助理檢視官的一個一個人員的增補我想可以分擔一些的工作那我想可以做的很多包括管考等等"},{"start":12791.631,"end":12809.963,"text":"這個可以再來努力,謝謝委員關心,我想檢察官還有我們檢察機關都很高興謝謝部長,我也希望部長您能以一個過來人的身份來體恤我們這些檢察官由您的部長的這種帶領之下,重新讓我們法務部有一番不同的氣息"},{"start":12812.762,"end":12829.638,"text":"我們現在有許多的這個機關首長都會在社群媒體上和民眾有一個直接的互動那除了重大的這個政令宣導之外也能夠讓民眾瞭解到我們部會的這個日常的業務那我看到在臉書上大部分的這個內閣都已經有開這個粉絲專頁"},{"start":12833.041,"end":12859.039,"text":"可是我們法務部好像只有經營這個IG那民眾很多的資訊來源還是來自臉書司法院也常常在粉專上分享時事和普及這個法學知識那我想請教我們部長是不是也考慮在臉書上開一個我們這個法務部或是您的這個粉絲專頁能夠讓民眾來知道我們法務部在做什麼也能夠將我們的政策盡速的傳達給民眾"},{"start":12861.36,"end":12883.428,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我們回去看看我們這部分有沒有辦法去做一個粉絲專我想可以把這些我們這些的檢察官還有我們法務部同仁的各項的一個政策亮點以及執行的一個成效包括我們保護被害人這部分司法保護這部分我們把這亮點我們再來用這些委員所提到的這些我們再來努力"},{"start":12884.548,"end":12913.147,"text":"另外就是我們最近在網路上有一個新型態的這個詐騙手法我想跟部長您來討論就是有不肖份子他假冒宜蘭國際這個同萬節的名義來開設一個粉專並且利用這個提前報名獲得禮券的優惠或是抽百萬好禮等字眼甚至還有模仿活動官方的這個活動發布一模一樣的公讀生招募的訊息誘導民眾加入這個LINE"},{"start":12914.428,"end":12914.448,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":12933.983,"end":12959.685,"text":"行騙各自的行為通常會希望要求平台業者競速協助下架詐騙的廣告相信我們這個主要的平台也都有負有這個社會的責任一起在打詐可是我想請教部長就是說有關這個即時下架詐騙廣告的機制目前執行的成效如何那大部分都已經能夠在短時間內下架嗎"},{"start":12961.246,"end":12961.266,"text":"請次長"},{"start":12978.007,"end":12995.505,"text":"各位報告在打詐專法裡面就這個投放廣告部分他有設一個專門的規定在打詐專法通過之前我們現在投信投顧法就這一個投資廣告就有一個機制所以向司法檢查機關投訴司法檢查機關可以跟相關的廣告業者進行下架的程序"},{"start":13002.104,"end":13011.637,"text":"從業務部的報告看起來我們至少在台灣的主流使用平台上包括Meta還有Line還有Google上面"},{"start":13012.397,"end":13033.322,"text":"業者都比較積極配合那如果今天我們使用的這個平台不是我們的主流這個跨國的網路平台例如現在年輕人很多使用的這個抖音還有小紅書這些平台上面有詐騙的這個資訊能否同樣要求業者來協助下架或是有跨國之間規範上的困難存在"},{"start":13034.062,"end":13062.517,"text":"有沒有好 市長這跨國的部分當然是未來我們打造專法裡面就要求這個他必須要在臺灣要有相關的設立的所謂的法律代理人的制度啦他要必須有相關下架的規定那目前為止的話在打造方專法通過之前目前的話我們當然就檢察官的部分我們在這個我們的這個臺鋼員組他有相關的跟各大平臺的聯絡方式給各檢察官那基本上"},{"start":13063.177,"end":13086.544,"text":"目前我們還是希望就是說業者他自律的方式來下架好那我想我們這個網路的這個詐騙是五花八門然後難以概括所有的犯罪形態但對於已經發生或是正在發生的這些詐騙行為我們都應該從各方面積極的來防治那公部門還是部門通力合作也呼應到最前面的這個民調所"},{"start":13088.004,"end":13114.452,"text":"提及的就是回應民眾最擔心的詐騙防制的這個問題那我也希望說部長在這邊可以率同我們相關部會會繼續來精進我們所有的這個防詐的行為那再來我想請教最後一個問題就是這兩天令大眾相當憂心的一位這個殺人未遂判刑確定的監護處分人的從醫院脫逃的事件那"},{"start":13115.834,"end":13135.394,"text":"因為被通緝的證明男子具有攻擊性且過往有傷害他人的紀錄所以對於他脫逃之後行蹤不明的情況可以說是造成人心惶惶那因為他脫逃是從基隆現在北北基甚至到桃都已經這個對於學校部分都已經禁止這個訪客了"},{"start":13138.417,"end":13165.589,"text":"那所以我們了解到他目前所接受的是在這個星期執行前的這個監護處分是希望他接受精神治療並這個減緩病情之後再進入矯正機關來服刑那但讓大家難以理解的是怎麼會發生這種脫逃的事件以前有過這個相關的這個案子嗎這次是因為我們管理上的疏失還是執行上遭遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":13168.829,"end":13183.597,"text":"這個脫逃這個是發生在基隆的一家醫院那個是跟地檢署簽約的收治那個監護處分的這些的受監護處分人那這部分因為在整個一個整個配備我想還是不是"},{"start":13184.398,"end":13200.592,"text":"那這部分我們會做一個檢討那我們也希望就是那個司法精神病院這部分可以我們可以逐步的推動到位那目前在高雄那個凱旋醫院有收治的病房那這部分我們會會再進行我們會去去檢視所以這個我們跟我們簽約這些醫院的收治的這醫院的安全維護的措施"},{"start":13209.48,"end":13209.62,"text":"執行處所"},{"start":13226.936,"end":13252.07,"text":"這次這個可能是在這個社區裡面那也有可能只是一般的這個診所的規模而已我想請教這個我們對於監護這個處分執行處所的這個配置機制是否足夠那也想請問對於我們監護處分人脫逃的這個通報機制譬如說這個處所管區的警察是否能夠在10分鐘內有效掌握到這個脫逃的狀況"},{"start":13254.414,"end":13279.044,"text":"那這邊我們一併來檢討那我想能夠到位不過這一件基隆偷討事件是在第一時間就已經發現所以檢察官在接受通話馬上就發布通緝了那現在我們在全力查其中那剛剛部長你也回答了就是針對我們法務部會繼續推動這個司法精神病院的部分我也希望說我們這個跟續推動讓我們相關的這個需求"},{"start":13282.585,"end":13288.949,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料,或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。"},{"start":13310.185,"end":13320.516,"text":"委員翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":13327.512,"end":13328.733,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15938","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15938","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eafb6a56bedfdb3c816425655b8120616f3be8d109af184be47151f3b29f2a0cf85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 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案件 、三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案件 、三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案件 、三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案件 、三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案件 、三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":2595.831,"end":2611.722,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2632.293,"end":2649.455,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生首先感謝各位委員對內政部業務的關注與指導今天貴委員會召開審查會議審議大院吳委員齊銘等17人提案之不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2650.444,"end":2668.264,"text":"林委員戴化等17人擬具《土地法第十四條條文修正草案》案。以及蔡委員裕宜等17人擬具《土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案》案。本部應邀前來報告並備詢,深感榮幸。僅將本部相關意見說明如下,請委員參考。"},{"start":2669.977,"end":2686.814,"text":"首先針對不動產估價師部分條文修正草案在修正條文第八條部分依據身心障礙者權利公約及精神衛生法規定身心障礙者或罹患精神病病人之享有與其他人平等之工作權利"},{"start":2687.953,"end":2711.631,"text":"為本案提案參考會計師法第六條及地政事法第十一條規定修正本條文第一項有關罹患精神疾病或身心狀況違常不能執行業務者不發給或註銷開業證明之規定對於本提案為落實保障罹患精神疾病或身心障礙者工作權益之修法方向本部競表贊同"},{"start":2713.476,"end":2718.134,"text":"第二部分有關增訂第18條之一、第18條之二的部分"},{"start":2719.315,"end":2742.977,"text":"不動產估價師受委託辦理不動產估價,其估價品質其會影響當事人權益及交易市場之秩序。為不動產估價過程包括調查、勘查等外業工作,以及交易案例等資料質詳整理、比較、分析及價格調整等內業工作,最後再決定估價價格,其過程甚為繁雜。"},{"start":2744.278,"end":2759.845,"text":"本提案參考會計師法之會計師助理規定修正增訂建立不動產估價助理員制以協助不動產估價師辦理內外業相關工作最後再由估價師依其專業審查估價過程並決定最終估價價格將有助於估價師專心致力於專業之價格評估與決定提升估價之品質"},{"start":2768.248,"end":2797.504,"text":"此外,本提案對於估價助理員之估價協助估價業務範疇、資格條件及管理等事項,一併配合納入規範,亦可確保助理員之專業及管理。建議本提案將不動產估價師助理員制度化法制化,將有助於提升不動產估價之專業及品質,有利於產業的發展,所以本部競表贊同。"},{"start":2799.022,"end":2818.619,"text":"第二大部分有關於土地法修正部分條文的修正首先有關於修正第十四條的部分按照土地法第十四條第一項第九款明定穀積土地不得為私有其立法亦仔細考量民生穀積為全民之資產理應由全民共享,不宜由私人獨佔"},{"start":2820.12,"end":2836.796,"text":"有關本庭案修正行政法人及公營事業機構有經營或使用需要之古蹟土地,得不受不得為私營之限制一解。考量行政法人及公營事業系由政府出資捐助或成立或直接管控。"},{"start":2838.318,"end":2861.49,"text":"堅負推動政府政策責任其性質與一般私人不同且其取得所需之古蹟土地後能依須文資文化資產保存條例保存法第八條第一項之規定認為公有文化資產尚無獨占古蹟土地之餘並有助於其業務推動以解決古蹟資產產權及管理維護複雜化等問題本部競表贊同"},{"start":2867.298,"end":2893.709,"text":"第二部分有關於修正土地法第七十三條之一條文的部分那麼本提案修正土地法第七十三條之一第三項增訂未辦繼承登記之土地或建築改良物於財政部國有財產署以下簡稱國產署待會標授前應書面通知繼承人、毗鄰地所有人及拍賣土地持分人"},{"start":2895.017,"end":2906.151,"text":"其修正意旨為確保當事人之財產權。按現行本條第三項規定信明訂未辦繼承登記之土地或建築改良物標售後"},{"start":2907.25,"end":2932.463,"text":"於該等土地或建築改良物有使用適時之繼承人、合法使用人或其他共有人就其使用範圍具有優先購買權,必時使用與所有權能合一。至於本案提擬增訂之比鄰地所有人,非屬本條第三項規定之優先購買權人,並拍賣土地持份人,"},{"start":2933.75,"end":2940.716,"text":"倘系指其他共有人亦能須有使用事實,使得就其使用範圍主張優先購買。另查為保障優先購買人權益"},{"start":2947.44,"end":2973.681,"text":"人之權益本條於111年6月22日修正公佈以明定地政機關對於未辦繼承登記之土地或建築改良物在辦理列冊管理前以及列冊管理15年已請國有國產署標授前均應以書面通知繼承人且辦理標授前應公告期間於30日延長為三個月"},{"start":2974.702,"end":2989.768,"text":"優先購買權人於標售決標後得主張優先購買之期限由10日延長為30日,配合前述修正,國產署已修正預期未辦繼承登記土地之及建築改良物標售作業要點。"},{"start":2991.397,"end":3013.317,"text":"明定應請登記機關、鄉、鄉鎮公所及村裡辦公室等代為張貼標授公告並請該等機關協助於網站公開提供標授資訊以增加多元管道使優先購買權能支息可提升標授資訊之傳播考量本條已訂有書面通知繼承人之規定"},{"start":3014.177,"end":3038.025,"text":"且毗鄰土地所有人及無使用事實之土地共有人非屬本條第三項規定之優先購買權人,因無通知需求,原建議免予修正。以上,僅就大院委員提案作二要報告,另有關修正條文之細部內容或文字,本部將於逐條審查時再提出建議意見供委員參考,並尊重委員會之討論決定。恭請各位委員指教。謝謝。"},{"start":3047.823,"end":3048.044,"text":"主席"},{"start":3066.755,"end":3085.181,"text":"行政委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案。二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。」案。三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。」案。四、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。案。五、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。案。五、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法"},{"start":3090.488,"end":3107.54,"text":"因為今天法案處理本次的會議就不處理臨時提案請各位委員有沒有意見好沒有好那我們現在就開始進行審打登記第一位的我們施巧慧委員好謝謝"},{"start":3121.234,"end":3140.265,"text":"董事長,今天您第一次備詢。但我想問你的第一個問題是,市長今天為什麼是由您出席?部長呢?部長有請假嗎?"},{"start":3140.953,"end":3141.854,"text":"有,部長有請假。"},{"start":3156.093,"end":3172.026,"text":"委員會跟召委如果根據昨天國民黨和民眾黨共提的修正動議版本上面是寫委員會同意不說召委同意就有算了喔對阿這個還沒有確定喔我不知道這範圍是多少捏好再來來來來市長我問你的第二個問題市長主席不給你為難啦你昨天也站我們這邊的啦對啦"},{"start":3178.891,"end":3202.583,"text":"來來來次長我再問你次長今天我們要討論的主題是什麼我們要討論的主題今天的質詢主題是要討論不動產估價師法的修正還有土地法的修正這是今天的範圍嘛對不對並備質詢嘛對不對部長我今天想要問你的是都市更新事業優惠貸款要點我這有沒有超過質詢範圍我們尊重大院的決定跟委員的權責部長"},{"start":3204.404,"end":3211.768,"text":"我現在在問你欸問你我現在要質詢這個題目有沒有超過質詢範圍根據昨天通過二讀二讀通過的這個條文到底有沒有超過質詢範圍開會通知單上面寫的是這個不動產估價師法還有土地法但我現在我是位委員欸我當然可以問所有的問題啊我這有超過質詢範圍嗎"},{"start":3229.618,"end":3231.12,"text":"我們尊重大院的決定跟委員的權責"},{"start":3253.054,"end":3270.776,"text":"兩萬到二十萬啦兩萬到二十萬啦各位各位我沒有跟大家開玩笑市長我跟你說接下來的政務官很難做"},{"start":3271.752,"end":3294.129,"text":"因為我剛剛問的問題根據昨天通過的二讀的這個法條如果再繼續走下去我剛剛的問題都成立啊都成立啊而且到底是不是這樣還沒有人知道欸不知道怎麼解釋啊因為昨天的這些法條通過之前不知道完全沒有經過任何的討論所以它的範圍到底是什麼沒有人知道市長"},{"start":3295.643,"end":3319.04,"text":"好自為之啊 好自為之啊好啦 齁 次長 這個第一天到立法院備詢就被問這種問題我們等一下這個影片請大家出去評評理接下來中華民國的政務官都要用這樣的標準在立法院備詢嗎還有人願意來做中華民國服務人民的官員嗎"},{"start":3320.541,"end":3336.771,"text":"我請大家仔細的思考看看我們昨天二讀通過的法條到底合不合理這是我今天的第一個問題好啦那但是本於我自己的國會職責、內政委員會職責我真的想跟你討論都市更新事業優惠貸款這個要點部長、市長請問你知道這個要點嗎是"},{"start":3343.081,"end":3370.643,"text":"這個要點很多人不知道欸我昨天問了聯絡人齁還有問了部內的資深的人員成辦人員其實他們也都不太知道欸這個要點是什麼時候開始的在95年1月25號有行政院在加速推動更新方案95年就開始了好那到現在還在嗎還在還在嘛那95年到現在請問根據這個優惠貸款的要點一共申請了執行了幾件"},{"start":3371.563,"end":3377.847,"text":"一共累積已經通過有59件才59件對不對才59件喔好大家聽聽看喔我們這個貸款匡列了2000億但是這麼多年二十幾年下來一共才59億你覺得這樣的一個我們要促進都市更新這個事業所設立的優惠貸款你覺得這樣的政策工具成效好嗎"},{"start":3398.83,"end":3417.443,"text":"跟委員報告相關的優惠貸款我們是國發會協調中華郵政去提撥2000億貸款如果有人說假但是很多從事那個都市更新的相關的事業體他們有的因為可以從私人的銀行所以他們就不一定會來我們"},{"start":3419.304,"end":3447.158,"text":"但是為什麼他會去私人銀行不會來這裡來來來我們給你看嘛就下面嘛這幾項嘛第一貸款利率跟其他金融機構的差異不大你今天如果真的要做到優惠的感覺你就是這個利率的差異要做出來讓人家覺得說啊我願意來這裡這裡更好這才是有效的政策工具嘛來啦第二點但第三點我甚至也都幫你整理好了第二點就是貸款的年限不長我們先看下一張喔下一張投影片喔"},{"start":3448.311,"end":3466.105,"text":"市長你是專家嘛你非常清楚應該比我更清楚都市更新的期程其實就是分這樣的三階段那其實第一階段開發整合第二階段開發審查第三階段就是核代申請建造和建築施工其實花費最長的時間是什麼是第一階段開發整合的時間對不對可是我們什麼時候可以開始申請剛剛的這個優惠貸款是一二三哪一個時間點開始是在第三個階段第三個階段"},{"start":3478.974,"end":3493.339,"text":"第三個階段我才可以申請這個貸款如果這個時候我開始申請了之後因為通常概見案大概確實是您現在的這個優惠的貸款它的年限六年差不多差不多啦可是其實最需要錢"},{"start":3494.199,"end":3509.405,"text":"最需要發揮的最需要政府協助的其實是前面的階段啊所以次長我今天特別提出這個問題來跟您請教就教就是你看看政府現在要不要鼓勵都市更新要嘛事實上我們的圍繞我給你看一個數據你看圍繞"},{"start":3511.631,"end":3529.71,"text":"違老的部分我們是從2017年才開始的可是到現在已經是3599了3599件都市更新的話1998年開始才這樣子件數而已這是一個非常重大的落差順便在這裡請教次長次長違老重建的條例其實又已經快到期了這有沒有再延長的想像"},{"start":3532.313,"end":3550.703,"text":"再延長的機會有目前我們正在政策平衡當中是不是因為做得好你就是會再延長嘛所以我們再回來前面剛剛的這個部分都市更新的這個事業獎勵的這個部分那市長今天給你看到了有這樣的狀況而且它的成效確實是不彰所以"},{"start":3551.963,"end":3577.99,"text":"還有剛剛第三點推廣效果不佳因為連聯絡人都搞不清楚這個狀況所以我建議是不是能夠好好的把這個優惠貸款的部分再重新研究一下看是要把利率差異做大還是貸款的年限拉長甚至是往前斷就有開啟的機會我認為這都是可以討論的是不是可以請部內到跟我辦公室再做進一步的研究"},{"start":3578.41,"end":3579.03,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3596.047,"end":3596.567,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":3628.627,"end":3653.639,"text":"首先我們必須承認不動產估價師作為公正又專業的第三方在我們國家不動產的市場扮演著就是很非常重要的角色在台灣不動產的市場影響著無數的民眾的經濟正是有這種市場的重要性我們認為確保估價師公正又專業性非常的重要"},{"start":3654.195,"end":3657.856,"text":"不動產的估價師專業的判斷不是影響到我們的買賣雙方的權益更就是牽涉到信貸或者稅務的標準性但是隨著市場的快速發展與專業人才需要增加所以目前不動產的估價師的數量不足能滿足我們市場的需求"},{"start":3682.183,"end":3683.564,"text":"請問市長對於這個現況看法是什麼?認為怎麼樣才能提高我們的行業?還有就是整體的量能又可以兼顧的專業性?"},{"start":3698.392,"end":3724.512,"text":"謝謝委員次教那麼委員剛剛所提問的我們怎麼樣增加相關的人才那要跟委員報告其實目前許多大學已經開設了相關的課程那協助輔導以及教學許多未來的優秀的人才那我們也會針對這個部分給予很多學校幫助希望他們能夠在這部分的人才裡面配合市場的需求去增加而且培育專業的人才"},{"start":3725.299,"end":3725.459,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":3741.577,"end":3743.838,"text":"對不動產估價的行業的年輕人投入這個行業但是根據新的修法版本新的修法將會明確助理的聘用條件還有職責範圍和必要的專業需求訓練需求但我們認為"},{"start":3762.245,"end":3789.399,"text":"在法案第十八之二的條落日條款竟然是已經設定的日期了所以希望是不是不要用要服務滿四年這樣才能吸引更多有經驗的人來加入的行業所以對於這個部分我們有提出修正動議希望部長這邊就是看有什麼看法"},{"start":3790.461,"end":3813.688,"text":"就不要說要有經驗4年這樣這部分感謝委員赤教我們會在等一下主條討論的時候進一步跟委員請教請益是好謝謝市長因為我們希望更多的人加入這個行業對於我們的台灣的經濟還有雙方的買賣都很有大的幫助所以謝謝我們的市長"},{"start":3815.752,"end":3821.28,"text":"再來就請教我們的次長有看到這篇新聞嗎?"},{"start":3824.846,"end":3833.148,"text":"所以我們居住正一直是我們民眾就是最關心的議題特別在就是都會區現在的房子貴三三嘛對所以呢不吃不喝才能十幾年才能買到房子我們希望社會住宅是給需要的人來使用的不是就是對於我們的一般的民眾就是社會住宅的補貼"},{"start":3852.039,"end":3854.261,"text":"補貼的金額還有申請的流程還有很多的疑問所以像這樣子的新聞就是開豪車就可以租社會住宅這樣子的話我們就以那個身分別來去就是作為社會住宅的標準"},{"start":3870.773,"end":3894.851,"text":"這樣如果以身分別這樣子的標準的話恐怕就是跟社會住宅法第25條的第三項的規定依成住人的薪水及負擔能力來訂定收費標準就有所違背了所以請教我們的次長這樣的制度有什麼看法"},{"start":3895.975,"end":3917.13,"text":"首先感謝委員的垂詢那剛才新北市的社宅的狀況那新北市有去做相關的調查那他們會進一步去釐清相關的狀況那至於修法的部分我們目前正在討論當中那我們也會依據委員的建議那來斟酌相關的情況"},{"start":3920.203,"end":3938.264,"text":"希望是說修法真正的是花錢花在刀口上就是要照顧到有需要照顧的人以身分別的話就是車子是不算不動產的話就不會移在裡面這樣子的話對真正的需要照顧的人沒有照顧到所以我們要花錢花在刀口上"},{"start":3941.287,"end":3941.928,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":3970.632,"end":3970.832,"text":"主席"},{"start":3983.519,"end":3993.341,"text":"真是,不要緊張不要怕因為胡錦濤總召國民黨說要讓我們的官員出沒辦法來擔任各單位的政府因為我覺得有理性對台灣中華民國有抱負的人我相信你們同樣會勇敢為國家來做事情"},{"start":4012.471,"end":4016.394,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員吳琪銘等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4036.909,"end":4042.172,"text":"改端問題的節目都是不一樣的。但是在這裡面臨新的政策,另外大家來共同為台灣來做事情。在這裡面我們說到說查國書,這個查國書的助理,我們先說延伸去查國書。查國書每一檔的入局,你有覺得很假嗎?"},{"start":4068.301,"end":4088.541,"text":"文哲雄相關的估價師的他們的入取率很低是因為他們相關的課程還有考試的資格的確也比較嚴格我們希望能夠確保全民的權益尤其這個整個的估價過程對我們資產有很大的影響所以他們當然訓練比較嚴格報考考試的狀況也比較嚴格"},{"start":4092.739,"end":4096.861,"text":"甚至你剛才嫌棄而已因為當然每一項項目、每一項科技都是很嫌棄這是本社會跟你討論說是怎樣他有時一年會入局你跟二十個在這兩邊的規定剛才你說的說還有因為他要做什麼要做什麼嫌棄每一個單位課也都要嫌棄"},{"start":4121.571,"end":4141.531,"text":"這是你有覺得問題出在台嗎?我認為問題關鍵可能包含就是說在整個職業訓練的過程還有學習的過程,它需要比較多的時間。甚至本席跟你說,因為我上次去問過,我們就是"},{"start":4144.695,"end":4149.139,"text":"要有課程要有學分經過國家課程後要有兩檔的經驗再來要加入一定的工會要加入在裡面的過程當中要先為一個查告書"},{"start":4169.224,"end":4180.312,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條"},{"start":4199.07,"end":4202.895,"text":"他去看、他去做草稿書的工作,他會當地人還是沒有來?"},{"start":4207.813,"end":4235.508,"text":"與委員報告我們基於全責的狀況查顧司助理跟其他會計師助理、地政司助理是一樣他們可以協助業務但是他們不能負最後的責任也就是最後責任還是要歸為顧價師本身來蓋章因為說實在因為本身也沒有反對做你的法治法因為說實在有現在很多人不需要尤其我們都跟"},{"start":4236.608,"end":4241.13,"text":"議員吳琪銘等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4260.385,"end":4275.569,"text":"所以說,剛才你也有說,不能反映了。在這裏面,我認為,待會,我們諮詢之後,要好好探討的時候,要讓你們有意見的、有問題、有擔意的,都要拿出來聽你們的意見。因為你們是執行單位。再來,我來請教一下,"},{"start":4286.071,"end":4290.016,"text":"我們剛才蔡議員說的土地法你如果有報告的時候你覺得說你有什麼困難因為比較在南部的地方當中的"},{"start":4302.819,"end":4307.204,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十五條之一條文修正草案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":4323.102,"end":4328.924,"text":"有的人是針對這去處理,所以我們會想說,來通知他出民台位有需要用這塊地,因為有很多延遲到他本來不能走。"},{"start":4344.656,"end":4354.126,"text":"他又想說趕好出兵,跟大家說這樣走到冠四冠四啊。他又想說趕好出兵,跟大家說這樣走到冠四冠四啊。他又想說趕好出兵,跟大家說這樣走到冠四冠四啊。他又想說趕好出兵,跟大家說這樣走到冠四冠四啊。他又想說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說趕好出兵,跟大家說"},{"start":4360.772,"end":4367.996,"text":"要輸送、要給他的工具,這是很浪費的。所以本身要跟你說的就是我們要去研議,要如何可以四處聯絡,雖然你有擔憂,本身也想到說,如果像在市內,一塊塊在公寓的旁邊,你要買一塊"},{"start":4385.245,"end":4388.986,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4406.775,"end":4412.859,"text":"甚至不是說我又覺得困難,我又不做了。當有困難的時候,我們就是要解決。像我自己也是,也有回到這個問題。所以我們希望,我們的法是越修越好,可以你沒有看到的問題,我們拿出來跟你探討。這你的意見是怎樣?來。"},{"start":4430.816,"end":4448.919,"text":"感謝委員的指教那委員所提的狀況還有蔡易餘委員所提出的狀況我們都會了解我們也都注意那詳細的細節是不是我們等一下修法的時候我們再一併跟委員做報告好要先去了解因為這中會真的發生我了解謝謝好謝謝完美會委員的執行謝謝來"},{"start":4458.356,"end":4459.316,"text":"黃建斌委員董事長"},{"start":4487.742,"end":4492.104,"text":"市長早市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":4503.61,"end":4503.79,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":4533.823,"end":4560.085,"text":"市長問問我們之前內政部長林耀昌還有在去年選舉時間到我們台東市仁愛國小來勘查這個血統上下這個動線強化整個周邊的這個通學的安全這是蓋好的政策因為我們台東縣的預算不多那很難去龐大這麼大的校園的周邊安全改善那請教市長針對這一塊未來我們內政部是不是有針對往非直轄市而且是財力較為弱的縣市來做經費的補充的補助"},{"start":4566.616,"end":4576.129,"text":"主席跟委員報告有關於道路安全在賴總統的就職演說裡面也有特別提到我們對道安的要求"},{"start":4577.702,"end":4597.325,"text":"行政院本於一體本部當然依據行政院的指示我們會進行相關的協助那特別是在國土署的部分我們會請國土署協助有關於非六都的地區相關的城鄉建設看可以怎麼樣的協助我們會依法來執行"},{"start":4598.456,"end":4619.553,"text":"謝謝市長,市長這邊台中縣真的要幫台中縣多多跟部長那邊來齊並要多協助另外我們在剛才有提到就是其實我們這幾年其實大家都提到的居住正義居住正義那地價的整個上漲房價一直不斷的攀升其實造成不管是年輕人或是未來要買房子的人他很大的負擔其實台東喔,台東的房子也非常貴"},{"start":4621.454,"end":4646.243,"text":"不要以為台東偏遠,因為台東房價很高我們從去年內政部的不動產資訊平台看到我們台東平均每坪是19.1萬那是2011年的時候同時期它是15.83萬三年期間都升了10%而且這個只是平均,事實上又更高那當然這邊很多是外地的投資客進來投資因為我們台東其實它的收入並沒有那麼高所以越來越來買房"},{"start":4648.024,"end":4674.02,"text":"不只台北人買不起房,連東部的年輕人他都買不起房。這個原因還是因為台東市主要的人口聚集還是在台東市區,他的腹地有限。腹地有限,然後將這幾年通膨物料上漲,人力成本大家都蓋起來,所以買房已經是對台東人來說是很遙遠的一個夢想了。從上面知道土地是最重要的一個因素,所有一切土地是固定一切。"},{"start":4675.728,"end":4683.821,"text":"請問市長未來有沒有計畫跟我們台東縣政府以及人口居住密集最高的台東市跟卑南鄉來一起做擴大都市計畫的通盤檢討?"},{"start":4688.286,"end":4705.622,"text":"謝謝委員指教那首先針對房價的部分也要跟主席跟各位委員報告我們在房價的因為房價其實是因為經濟這幾年高度成長所以他有一些大概有動資金的狀況市長那個啦土地土保運啦現在請到土地保運 甘有米啦甘有那個幾位啦"},{"start":4706.883,"end":4722.489,"text":"有,我們會請內政部、國土署這邊我們會去做都市計畫檢討但是相對來講也跟委員報告縣市政府必須優先提出你們的都市計畫因為我們是二級次的我們需要先由縣發動"},{"start":4724.17,"end":4738.1,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案件事項、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":4751.07,"end":4758.506,"text":"非難文化公園的周邊像台東市的非難女人房裡也是人口非常密集的地方因為"},{"start":4759.676,"end":4769.927,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條文修正草案案案件事宜,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案案件事宜,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案案件事宜,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案案件事宜,不動產估價師法部分"},{"start":4782.239,"end":4782.56,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":4799.075,"end":4820.394,"text":"針對我們黃建斌委員麻煩請問主席這個是會要請市長跟我們文化部這邊來討論一下周邊的排水設施因為這個問題困擾這邊的居民已經20年那現在降雨狂降雨情況越來越多的情況下這情況一段一直不斷不斷的發生這部分我們要請市長來討論一下另外我們回到就是說"},{"start":4822.918,"end":4828.493,"text":"主席再給我一點時間,我想請教的是我們的副署長我們現在台東國產署的人力配置有多少?"},{"start":4834.795,"end":4854.743,"text":"委員好是,副長我們台東現在台東辦事處的人力配置有多少?因為最近我們有請徵人力那大概院裡面有合給我們大概24個約聘人力那我們最近有在討論會針對台東辦事處人力不足的這部分"},{"start":4855.143,"end":4855.744,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":4879.467,"end":4901.066,"text":"兩天的事本期從當代表會主席到鄉長到現在當立委這個情況都沒有改變我回去的時候都會收到很多很多的陳情案件我們現在光是去年收到的續註案件就三千件前面還沒有結案的包括未來新的案子進來它一直不斷的在累積累積我跟你講一個現實際的問題因為老農"},{"start":4905.472,"end":4906.313,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":4917.867,"end":4918.187,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":4936.67,"end":4951.026,"text":"人力不夠衍生的問題非常非常的多那我相信我們在應該去年就有一個新的一個土地的一個作業系統的開啟嘛那這個問題更可以縮短一到三個月的作業時間是不是那目前的成效好不好"},{"start":4952.168,"end":4967.389,"text":"有關就是我們非公用財產的一個處理的這部分大概呃我們都是會按時來督導我們所屬的一個辦事處他的一個辦理的一個期程吶那本是要幫基層的原理講一下真的"},{"start":4968.59,"end":4993.758,"text":"台東縣這麼大人力這麼少每一場你都要到會館親自到嘛那個真的對他們負擔也很重對民眾影響也很大所以這部分是請副處長再研議增加人力這一塊還有讓整個效能夠提升副處長可以嗎這部分我們都已經有注意到而且這一次的人力請證的案24個約聘人力的這部分我們針對我們台東辦事處的人力我們也多於配置"},{"start":4994.418,"end":4995.078,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5031.258,"end":5033.7,"text":"董事長,請教一下,請問你今天早上吃什麼?為什麼不回答?是在藐視國會嗎?"},{"start":5051.203,"end":5054.726,"text":"現在是在反質詢嗎?為什麼可以否決我的提問呢?所以你早上是吃三明治還是吃漢堡?"},{"start":5076.616,"end":5101.909,"text":"你確定嗎?有沒有講錯?有沒有虛偽陳述?三明治還在我辦公桌上那就是還沒吃嘛那你還沒吃你說你吃了那你就是虛偽陳述虛偽陳述照國民黨跟民眾黨的版本如果禮拜五他們刑法修過了不好意思你要關一年你會因為你沒有正確的答出你的早餐吃什麼而被關一年"},{"start":5103.243,"end":5129.242,"text":"所以我要講的就是昨天其實在院會我們通過這25條照國民黨跟民眾黨通過的這個版本沒有反質詢的定義也沒有所謂藐視國會的定義就這樣貿然通過的版本沒有任何實質審查會有多恐怖會讓我們的官員成日就這樣在恐慌當中他不知道該怎麼答他連早餐要吃三明治還是漢堡都沒有辦法回答"},{"start":5129.882,"end":5158.982,"text":"這就是我們現在通過如此荒謬的法律所以希望藉這個機會讓大家知道不好意思次長第一天來就嚇到你讓你不知道要怎麼回答但是因為昨天我們在國會發生了這樣非常荒謬的一個法律的通過現在已經二讀了所以我必須要讓大家知道我們現在進行的這個藐視國會罪是多麼多麼荒唐的一件事情好謝謝次長你可以先回座了我今天其實不是要問你"},{"start":5165.667,"end":5186.845,"text":"議長再補充一下依照剛剛如果這樣子他藐視國會我們在場有五位委員連署送院會決議就可以通過你就要被送辦了你要嘛就是罰個20萬而且還罰10萬然後可以連次處罰如果你剛剛連續答錯從三明治到咖啡到漢堡"},{"start":5187.185,"end":5197.534,"text":"如果你每一個都覺得你答錯不好意思我是可以連續處罰你的所以這就是這個昨天通過的這個法律的事情好再來我要請教一下經管會有嗎經管會相關的人員是專委嗎經管會專委專委請教一下"},{"start":5213.977,"end":5235.191,"text":"今天我想要請教的是因為其實今天的這個法律的通過要提升我們不動產估價作業的一些助理的權益然後重點我希望還是放在就是這個不動產估價作業的獨立性我想問一下說我們現在這一次這個助理員的素質的修法方向您認同嗎"},{"start":5240.276,"end":5269.375,"text":"是不是因為昨天這個二讀通過大家都有點害怕最後都只敢講說尊重大院的決議其實我還是希望聽聽我們經管會專業的建議你先不用擔心這個法律我們會努力的讓它不要用這麼荒唐的方式進行我還是希望聽到你們專業的建議而不是因為這個法律如果照國民黨跟民眾黨版本通過導致說我們官員每個人都只敢說尊重大院尊重大院那在這邊的質詢就沒有意義了"},{"start":5272.338,"end":5296.626,"text":"經管會的立場確實是尊重這個大院的一個決議那這個助理員的一個資格的提升確實是有利不動產的一個估價所以我們尊重好 謝謝那當然我覺得這是一個好的方向那我主要想問的是因為接下來其實我們在不動產估價師全聯會有發布一個就是金融機構設定抵押權之不動產估價報告書的範本"},{"start":5298.627,"end":5325.558,"text":"以及估價的原則就是希望提供我們銀行估價過程的客觀性跟獨立性所以我想要請問的是我們經管會支持這樣的方向嗎因為其實現在大家比較詬病或者是覺得會比較存疑的說因為我們現在國內的銀行都是內部自行估價所以呢如果他可以一手見價一手放款一條龍的完成所有核貸的流程就會被大家說"},{"start":5326.358,"end":5350.598,"text":"質疑是不是有一些詐貸、抄貸的這些事情然後影響我們的公正客觀性所以我想問一下經管會對於這樣的事情就是接下來我們不動產估價的過程的獨立性、客觀性有沒有任何的建議以及說現在銀行內部他們這樣自行估價、自行減價、自行放款的公正性您覺得如何?"},{"start":5353.986,"end":5374.523,"text":"目前其實銀行他在做建價的部分是依據銀行法三十七條他要去核實的建價那銀行內部針對徵信跟授信是由不同的單位跟人員來去做徵授信的一個審核跟核代那相關的部分是有一些獨立性那在內控上面也有內部集合的一個要求"},{"start":5375.103,"end":5390.467,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十"},{"start":5404.43,"end":5432.564,"text":"請教的是說我們現在因為不動產估價師全聯會有發布一個這個不動產估價的管理規範的原則針對估價人員獨立性專業性都有提供相關的指引然後呢現在還有這個原則是不是有機會讓他成為委外估價的法制化的作業或者是說現在現行的機構下我們要如何提升這個不動產估價作業的獨立性跟客觀性這個我覺得才是最重要的"},{"start":5436.794,"end":5460.673,"text":"我們這邊還是強調說這個不動產的估價的話銀行他還是要依照他的一個業務屬性跟一個案子的一個需求去做一個評估啦好 那我當然希望經管會還是要進行相關的這個監控啦就是不要讓這個公正性跟獨立性被抹煞好 謝謝好 謝謝感謝黃姐委員來接受我們這張紅綠委員"},{"start":5479.99,"end":5496.705,"text":"誒,我請這個董事長來,偵測來,次長是其實我們今天這個啊齁,不動產估價師這個啊齁"},{"start":5499.417,"end":5520.319,"text":"其實以前大家對不動產估價師可能比較印象比較沒有那麼深但其實現在其實我們有很多公務部門也都是需要也跟這個不動產估價師他們有合作的機會吧是對嘛所以啊"},{"start":5522.322,"end":5544.508,"text":"這個不動產估價師啊,其實已經是一個越來越專業的一個行業了吧?對,沒有錯。蛤?是。沒有錯嘛。對啊,所以啊,我個人是覺得啦,所以說這個不動產估價師,他們如果要有像今天的修法,如果說他們要有助理的,你們的認為是如何?"},{"start":5546.994,"end":5565.185,"text":"跟委員報告本部認為相關的提案其實是非常合理我們競表同意另外我們今天還有要修土地法我想請問一下市長有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣"},{"start":5569.711,"end":5593.107,"text":"有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣?因為我們現在有一個地級清理條例那如果早期有些登記在神明或是神旗的名下的土地我們會進行清理你回答我的問題有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣登記在神明名下的早期土地會"},{"start":5594.282,"end":5605.622,"text":"有這種情況有嘛對不對對啊啊這個可能很多人覺得很奇怪啊怎麼會有神明的土地被拍賣對不對可是你要知道"},{"start":5607.148,"end":5635.431,"text":"以前從以前有很多人他把土地捐給寺廟捐給什麼那他捐給誰以前的人也沒有我們以前的年代也沒有這麼多相關的法規啊那我捐給誰啊我捐給天上聖母我捐給土地公這間廟就是他們然後以前呢也沒有我們這些財團法人規定也沒有什麼董事會什麼的他土地就登記什麼"},{"start":5636.874,"end":5665.957,"text":"登記這一個廟啊這個廟欸他的祖神是什麼那時候土地就寫上他的名字了對不對是那好啊那些問題來啦我們土地清查之後啊歷史的問題他今天他有很多一兩百年前了他的後代也不知道去哪裡了有的也沒有管理委員會有的也沒有董事會什麼都沒有"},{"start":5667.219,"end":5678.602,"text":"那我們土地清查之後咧問題出現了啊他沒有辦法去完成登記啊結果咧神明的土地就要被政府拍賣"},{"start":5680.719,"end":5701.101,"text":"市長你覺得這合理嗎?這好像我們要去清查這個土,我是支持的,我也認為應該要做的。可是這個歷史是這樣,我們就一定要這麼硬梆梆的,然後就照這些規定來,結果造成神明的土地被拍賣。"},{"start":5702.342,"end":5709.706,"text":"委員提到這個部分那我們會特別注意因為土地清查是國家非常重要的政策但是涉及到相關的一些民間習俗跟一些權益的事項那我們會特別注意然後看未來"},{"start":5728.482,"end":5733.047,"text":"再跟委員請議,是不是有什麼樣相關的方法我們來做修正。"},{"start":5734.761,"end":5760.009,"text":"我覺得啦這個第一陣子也跟委員補充一下齁因為這些土地的部分就像委員講時代非常久遠所以清查這個工作我們都一定特別要求那如果在飆售因為有些土地的部分如果有寺廟或是神明的那個相關的關係人有出面的話他也可以申請暫緩飆售那這些土地的活動在處理上會非常慎重我跟你講啦"},{"start":5760.669,"end":5780.48,"text":"你講這些齁,我也不能說你錯啦。啊你就是照法令啦。齁,很多事情,我我覺得是要這樣啦齁,不知道製展你想想看齁。來。我們啦,這樣對於這些神明會的第幾的清理這一些啊,我們應該要提供啊,專案輔導的協助。你認為合不合理?"},{"start":5782.018,"end":5795.412,"text":"我想委員的建議這個部分我們可以部內先來討論我們也跟再會再去跟委員請議你們要討論什麼那都是我都尊重你覺不覺得"},{"start":5796.584,"end":5819.041,"text":"要以專案來輔導來協助如果沒有你請迪森斯回答這個部分我們會請縣市再了解一下現在神明會的土地登記的情況是怎麼樣我們來做一個專案的一個來做一個調查看那個他們還有什麼不足的部分需要協助的部分我跟你講啦大概就是我跟你講啦他們齁如果沒有原始規約啦"},{"start":5820.382,"end":5821.563,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":5839.55,"end":5863.301,"text":"誰要回答如果是你們家你們拿得出來嗎現在這些土地的話有關於神明會的組成都是跟地方的民政來申請那可能有些史料或地方的文獻可能會有一些記載的部分現在有些也是透過這些旁證的資料來做一個佐證所以這個可能要看個案我跟你講不要再講什麼個案什麼的啦齁"},{"start":5864.221,"end":5880.767,"text":"我跟你講啦 這個問題齁 我認為齁 應該是要處理的啦齁 文史工作者都可以去走齁 這些寺廟怎樣 你們要寺廟什麼要把人家變成古蹟都可以去盡量找資料 找什麼然後把他變成古蹟"},{"start":5881.775,"end":5905.489,"text":"那像這種呢?為什麼不行呢?就是有一個態度而已啦。我覺得是態度要拿出來解決這個問題啦。這些東西也不是個人財產。我們根本不用擔心是肥了誰嘛。那如果有了這個之後,你應該去要求我政府如果給你這些,讓你可以繼承這些財產。"},{"start":5907.368,"end":5935.374,"text":"規定他不能登記私人你必須要有設立你的管委會或是董事會這樣問題都解決了沒有任何一毛錢掉到誰的口袋裡替神明解決問題你才能國泰民安我覺得應該是要這樣而且像現在有很多的土地很多的寺廟他其實他座落在國有土地上"},{"start":5936.684,"end":5939.849,"text":"他坐在國有土地上,我們的國有土地不應該是這麼一個嚴格的標準。我國有財產署啊,我的土地不能賣啦,我的土地不能這樣啦。"},{"start":5950.037,"end":5973.734,"text":"市長只要是現有的寺廟不是要新的只要是現有的那你國有土地你就不應該你們要去跟國有參與局去協調不應該這麼硬梆梆的嘛我們是替神明解決問題不是替個人替台灣的信仰政治任務每次都要去廟裡拜拜都不幫神明解決問題我覺得市長"},{"start":5977.36,"end":6000.125,"text":"應該成立一個專案的小組來解決這個問題啦我覺得如果你可以把他這個做好 我跟你講 新名也要替你報筆啊好 我們會 謝謝委員的指教 我們會回去研議另外也跟委員報告 國有土地上的相關東西是不能飆售的也跟委員報告我剛剛講的嘛"},{"start":6002.782,"end":6027.001,"text":"如果是每個人都要照法條來做事那還請你們來幹嘛我就一台電腦在這邊按下去法令不行的都全部不要來啊你們來是要來解決事情不是來叫你們看法條要解釋法條我跟你講找一個這個特別會念書的以後用個AI來當部長AI來當次長不就好了"},{"start":6027.962,"end":6050.649,"text":"對不對我覺得我剛講的那個前提是這些事情都沒有任何一毛錢留到私人的口袋阿你要替台灣所有的寺廟去解決這個問題阿我覺得這是一個態度嘛 對不對次長是我們會再研議你們會再研議你剛剛說你要說阿現在又要再研議我認為阿"},{"start":6053.03,"end":6074.338,"text":"你們應該照我說的去處理一個專案然後處理這些事情那你說要多少時間我也不敢說你們要多少時間畢竟這太複雜了但你們應該要去成立一個這個好不好好 謝謝我們張宏立委員的執行 謝謝好 那下一位我們請劉勳廷委員 謝謝"},{"start":6080.578,"end":6086.663,"text":"好 謝謝主席吼 這個內政部次長有請好 請我們次長 謝謝次長早安吼不用擔心吼 我不會問你早餐吃什麼吼我想吼 這個國會議員吼 如果用這種私事然後要來講什麼藐視國會這個社會大眾也絕對不會接受這個在內部行程吼 調查小組的時候也絕對不會成立啦吼 這我想是基本上是屬於常識"},{"start":6109.461,"end":6124.375,"text":"所以我們還是不要浪費時間再去扯這些東西今天我們討論了不動產估價師修法土地法修法的一些相關的一些法條的修正大體上對於這些我們立法院好同事提出來的修法意見本席原則上都同意希望透過這個下午的法條討論的過程"},{"start":6126.156,"end":6155.086,"text":"能夠做一個更清楚的說明但是常常我們都透過一些法令的修正大概去了解一些公共政策的一些背後的一些背景跟一些形成的一個現象我們今天看到這個蔡易餘委員提的土地法七十三條之一講說是未辦繼承的土地到最後就由國家來做標授那標授的時候希望他是基於希望促進土地整合提高這個利用的機率也避免說這標授之後變成代替他沒辦法去使用等等一些現實上的問題所以他希望擴大這個通知範圍"},{"start":6155.686,"end":6160.131,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":6180.005,"end":6194.432,"text":"七十八萬六千三百五十七幣,總面積大概有一萬七千多公頃。接近1.8萬公頃,非常好,資料準備非常詳細,這加起來比金門縣的面積都還要大。而未辦理氣塵的建屋面積65萬坪。那為什麼會這樣?"},{"start":6200.219,"end":6217.12,"text":"我想這個繼承的原因有很多啦第一個包括說不知道祖先有留下來的那個然後再來就是說繼承人本身有眾多的不同的意見那還有他的座落的位置複雜然後不容易整合那或者是價值太低那沒有辦法充分利用等等這些原因"},{"start":6218.081,"end":6232.539,"text":"其實我們常常在基層上常碰到的狀況是其實第一個就是人口眾多難以整合啦是第二個就是不知所蹤嘛人不知道要去哪裡去國外啦或是怎麼樣怎樣一直久於聯絡這些都是常常遇到的狀況"},{"start":6233.28,"end":6262.469,"text":"那就本席的了解你這個要繼承一塊土地尤其是很多子女的一個情況之下要先有一個人出來辦繼承登記嘛讓這塊土地變成所謂的共同共有的一個情況然後大家再來做分割嘛對不對但是即便是這樣我們已經盡量簡化了先有一個人來辦我們在後續的程序變簡單但還是有這麼多的土地沒有辦法好好的進入大家理想中的這樣一個規範顯示即便這一個人要願意先站出來辦繼承登記其實客觀上的難度都蠻高的"},{"start":6263.129,"end":6291.658,"text":"市長這一個人要來辦繼承登記的時候他要經歷哪些手續哪些程序跑哪幾關沒問題基本上一個人可以幫所有繼承辦公同共有不過他就還是要報稅然後報完稅以後要就是立一些書面文件然後再送地政事務所辦登記對好書面文件來對不對而且你剛剛提到幾個概念第一個繳錢嘛這天經地義沒有這沒有問題第二個準備書表文件對不對哪些書表文件"},{"start":6294.45,"end":6314.115,"text":"計程系統表、申請書、稅單因為它是幫別人辦所以只要清澈比較簡單一點所以要跑戶政機關、稅務機關然後要把這些資料交給地政機關對不對這是本期今天關心的題目啦其實這件事情講的簡單恐怕實際上第一線在做起來蠻麻煩的"},{"start":6315.135,"end":6321.597,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6339.821,"end":6366.113,"text":"所以我覺得是不是內政部這邊來做一下你內部的這個跨部會的一個整合跨機關的一個整合這個戶政跟地政先做橫向聯繫都在你們內政部的範圍之內嘛那稅務當然是財政系統下面這我們理解但戶政地政先做橫向聯繫哪些資料可以透過書表文件線上填寫雲端共享甚至讓他不用跑林櫃辦理是不是可以研擬相關的方案來做這樣子的這個"},{"start":6367.353,"end":6383.04,"text":"降低他的負擔這第一個這部長願不願意花一點點時間做一下研究主席跟委員報告謝謝委員推詢其實相關的數位雲數位櫃台我們已經在做了那也謝謝委員的質詢讓更多人知道這件事情我們會大力去宣導"},{"start":6384.435,"end":6403.428,"text":"第二個是剛剛我們就講稅的部分當然今天因為相關單位沒有來列席那我們就姑且討論一下就是說現在的狀況就是說我要先按我要先這個我來辦紀念登記的時候我要先處理我的印記分他的遺產稅款嘛他如果這一塊土地有什麼違規使用什麼你要繳罰款、自納金啊、利息啊以及等等對不對那有繳錢的問題"},{"start":6404.489,"end":6404.97,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":6422.069,"end":6443.471,"text":"因為這個土地所有權是私權,私權就有所謂所得稅的問題,或者是土地所有稅的問題,我們基於社會公平正義才是需要做的。我同意,基本上當然稅是要繳的啦,但是一樣,我希望這一部分也比照戶政跟地政的橫向串聯,看有沒有一個相對簡單的一個機制來處理,目前有沒有一些研擬的方向?"},{"start":6444.583,"end":6465.69,"text":"跟委員報告這個目前已經有在做了而且只要民眾繳完稅以後我們事實上他不用拿去拿稅單來我們這個地政機關在現場事實上就可以知道透過我們地政跟我們的稅管這間單位我們聯繫我們就可以勾結他有沒有繳稅繳完稅以後那我們就可以讓你辦基層所以事實上是不需要"},{"start":6466.37,"end":6474.558,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案件中的負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員或負責人員"},{"start":6486.062,"end":6504.352,"text":"一、一樣回到我們剛剛那個問題就是說大家最後都沒有人願意去先做那個第一個人去辦那個登記計程對不對那是不是有這個機會就是說我如果暫時沒有能力或者是不願意繳納的時候我是不是也有可能用註記的方式先處理但是我不要耽誤相關辦這個登記的行政流程這我只是請教我們做一下對話做一下交換的意見"},{"start":6506.053,"end":6532.343,"text":"有沒有機會還是把這個程序走完了但是因為你沒有繳納遺傳稅跟相關的稅款你當然是不能做後續的分割跟處分嘛對不對這個絕對是鐵律啦這個我完全願意接受但前面是不是有必要一定要把它處理完你才能辦這個這個登記計程這個行政流程這件事我覺得可以討論一下對啦按照目前的稅法是一定要先繳清這個稅對你才有辦法完成這個程序嘛你才有辦法完成這個所有權的遺傳嘛"},{"start":6533.349,"end":6539.147,"text":"對,那這個部分我想我們可以再跟那個稅法單位來研議看看。"},{"start":6539.895,"end":6562.982,"text":"好啦沒關係這個題目其實蠻複雜的但是大方向我們是希望簡正便民嘛讓這個東西可以先把複雜的行政流程簡化讓大家的意願提高你才有辦法從根本嘛我們鼓勵這個私有的事應該私有來處理而不是通通等在政府飆售其實是不太對的但是簡化流程護證機關、力證機關的串聯稅務的部分看有沒有一些調整的方法"},{"start":6563.382,"end":6576.914,"text":"如果沒有辦法那也只好把話講清楚但無論如何串聯的工作希望內政部這邊來加強處理把這個問題解決掉可以嗎?謝謝委員的資訊那本部的部分我們會先勾結很棒謝謝市長好謝謝我們牛心團委員的資訊謝謝那下一位我們請習宇臻委員"},{"start":6588.968,"end":6608.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6616.193,"end":6617.934,"text":"請問一下吃早餐有可能會是重要的關係事項嗎?我們尊重大院的權責"},{"start":6644.677,"end":6663.01,"text":"為什麼要用這種誤導民眾的方式來去讓大家覺得藐視國會罪好像是吃個早餐講錯了或是記錯了就會被變成藐視國會我覺得這個要誤導民眾非常非常事實上在這邊是我覺得是非常不需要的方式我覺得我們應該回歸這個藐視國會到底是什麼樣的重要關係事項來討論如果說因為吃早餐講錯了而被判藐視國會罪的話這種國會也可以廢掉了"},{"start":6671.157,"end":6672.019,"text":"另外我想請教部長昨天在中捷發生了隨機砍人案"},{"start":6679.079,"end":6704.032,"text":"也就是在北捷隨機感染的這個10週年的當天那因為10年前發生這樣子的這個北捷這個隨機殺人案的時候因為當時因為捷運警力不足的關係當時內政部就有說要針對這個部分要來做一個檢討請問一下現在對於針對這10年來有沒有做了什麼樣的改善謝謝委員吹訊那我是不是請警政署的同仁來做回應"},{"start":6707.946,"end":6712.45,"text":"有關於針對於我們捷運車廂等等的部分在這幾年我們"},{"start":6713.767,"end":6739.862,"text":"持續在加強員警的教育訓練面對整個車廂如果發生劣勢這種案件的時候我們可以同仁如果去應變跟即時處理另外在平常勤務的部分我們都會有除了像在鐵路警察局他們有護車隊以外像在其他的捷運處所或高鐵的處所我們相關重要站所都會有人同仁在定時會到車廂去做巡邏"},{"start":6740.729,"end":6756.439,"text":"現在的問題是我們現在政府在強力的推動TPAS希望大家多利用這個捷運系統但是昨天發生這樣的事情之後我們發覺現在搭乘大眾捷運交通的人非常的多但是遇到這樣的事情專是在中部地區"},{"start":6757.6,"end":6783.037,"text":"如果現在我們的TPAS是不是還串聯可能是各個生活圈不同的所以說相對上人力就覺得更為重要所以說在這個部分本席就建議說如果假如跨越不同的這個縣市而且市權不同意的話到時候可能會互相去推諉各自的這個權限是什麼所以我覺得內政部是不是考慮應該成立一個TPAS的警察隊專門管理大眾捷運系統的乘客"},{"start":6783.397,"end":6783.597,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":6813.557,"end":6815.538,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案件事項》案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":6836.629,"end":6862.645,"text":"另外請請教一下我們針對土地法第十四條的規定就民生古蹟土地不得為私有那現在要修法讓行政法人跟公營事業單位可以登記民生古蹟的土地行政法人和公營事業單位是由政府出資捐助成立或者是直接掌控本席想請問這兩個機構算不算私有就法律體力來看修正這一條合適嗎請法務部廖參事說明"},{"start":6869.504,"end":6896.058,"text":"委員好那依照土地法的規定他的所謂的公有的土地指的是國有還有直轄市跟縣市政府跟鄉鎮就是地方自治團體所有那行政法人跟國營事業並不屬於土地法所列的這個公有的土地啦所以我想他這樣的一個規範有跟公有土地做差異性的規範"},{"start":6897.069,"end":6911.742,"text":"所以說修正這一條您覺得合適嗎?政策的部分我還是尊重主管機關這邊我是說法治上它不屬於公有土地所以它的制定是有它的差異化的這個價值"},{"start":6912.517,"end":6940.492,"text":"好 那請教一下針對這個部分的話待會請教次長一下就說因為民生古蹟的土地不得為私有那但是呢在我們的文資法第二條有規定文化資產的保存維護宣揚跟權利的移轉是依本法之規定但是呢因為土地法是歸我們這個內政部那文資法是歸文化部那請問一下針對民生古蹟的權利的移轉到底要依照哪一個法令辦理"},{"start":6942.138,"end":6962.793,"text":"針對民生古蹟相關的法的權益,我們基本上是基於法人及國運事業為公共事務所成立的,為國家所掌控。所以在土地上的使用基本上還是歸國家所有。但是古蹟的最終的管理權跟使用權是由文資法,依文資法來處理。我們法令上是很明確。"},{"start":6963.922,"end":6964.122,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":6983.553,"end":6985.555,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":6997.91,"end":7003.097,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案件。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。"},{"start":7015.373,"end":7041.672,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢那委員所提醒的我們會注意那也跟委員報告古蹟及名勝等相關的重點重要據點依文化資產保護法會由文化部做最終的裁決相關的文化資產或者是古蹟不得任意破壞也是由文化部在文資法裡面明定我們一定要遵守法令的規範即使是行政法人或國營事業也不得違背文資法"},{"start":7043.122,"end":7043.382,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":7073.948,"end":7074.969,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7095.982,"end":7105.949,"text":"主席。本席想請內政部次長、法務部參事、衛福部心理健康司檢政記者。"},{"start":7119.27,"end":7138.304,"text":"三位好本席今天我們在這個委員會來討論有關不動產估價師部分條文的修正那今天最重要就是提到第八條第一項的一到四款特別是針對第二款對於不發給撤銷或廢止開業證書的"},{"start":7145.37,"end":7168.389,"text":"為了落實保障罹患精神疾病或身心障礙者的工作權益我看到內政部表示贊同司法院也表示尊重本席其實也是贊同這樣的修法方向但是如果說這第二款刪除的話可能會有一些疑慮"},{"start":7170.331,"end":7188.146,"text":"本席想在這邊就教首先衛福部李季正難道沒有不動產估價師他的身心狀況已經達到無法執業可是又還沒有達到監護宣告跟輔助宣告的情況"},{"start":7189.386,"end":7212.431,"text":"那這種情形如果我們第二條刪除的話那這種情形怎麼辦因為不動產估價師他一旦他的精神或身心狀況他在幫民眾處理這種不動產的時候那這個糾紛你因為我們的法令這樣定所以最後就變成民間他們自己很多的爭執這個情況怎麼辦"},{"start":7215.648,"end":7226.834,"text":"謝謝委員的催詢那有關於大院所訂的版本齁其實在其他相關的法律也有類似的立法例那目前對於這個身心障礙的這個"},{"start":7228.281,"end":7233.305,"text":"相關專門職業人員法律規定有兩種立法例如果說專門職業人員執行業務結果會間接影響到當事人權益就會像會計司法、地政司法一樣把生意障礙的職業就刪除另外有一種立法例"},{"start":7250.699,"end":7277.025,"text":"就是說會把什麼刪除?就不讓他執業嗎?對對對,就是類似今天的這個委員所提的版本,把這個第二款就做直接刪除。那有另外一種立法例,如果這個專門職業的...不是,我現在就是說第二款刪除了,那可是他還沒達到這個輔助宣告跟監務宣告,那這樣的情形他可以執業嗎?所以我就要跟委員報告說,還有另外一種立法提例,就是說如果他會"},{"start":7277.805,"end":7304.311,"text":"直接影響到當事人權益的話現行的燕光人員法裡面他會做條文的修正是說如果他有客戶你現在講燕光人員可是我們現在我在講不動產估價師啊我是把他的立法的立跟委員做說明沒有沒有我不是立法的立我現在就針對不動產估價師你沒有回答問題但因為我時間不多請你用書面請你用書面回答接著本席想要請教法務部的廖參事"},{"start":7306.231,"end":7321.045,"text":"家人申請監護或輔助宣告是為了本人的利益,不是為了公共或他人的利益。但是檢察官一申請監護處分是為公共或他人利益,對吧?"},{"start":7322.472,"end":7322.752,"text":"主席"},{"start":7344.113,"end":7346.974,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":7369.389,"end":7381.599,"text":"你能扮演等於說對不動產估價師職業水準如果你能夠掌握他的職業的情況嗎那如果發生業務過失導致他人權益損害的時候誰來負起損害賠償責任"},{"start":7385.825,"end":7412.925,"text":"現在我們會邀請相關指轄室或相關的縣市的主管機關會邀請專科醫師或組成小組來認定不是 因為這第二款刪除所以他已經就是你讓有狀況可是他的情況沒有到那麼嚴重可是他一樣會損害到人民財產的權益的時候那你誰來負責嘛你就甩鍋給民眾你們自己去協調"},{"start":7413.886,"end":7426.196,"text":"跟委員報告我們可以參考律師法的第九條的規範那麼我們依據那個規範我們來做立法例的修正那在下午在討論的時候我們來跟委員報告好好那再來吼"},{"start":7426.894,"end":7443.491,"text":"就是我們昨天吶發生兩件這個案件吼從新聞我們看到一個是台中終結我相信次長次長您這個雖然剛上任吼但沒辦法您今天來到來到我們委員會我還是要詢問"},{"start":7444.392,"end":7465.352,"text":"昨天我們整個警政署這裡對於這樣的一個情形我們是不是有針對因為我們看到從102年到112年因為大眾交通工具戰場就在大眾交通工具的環境商人案件數、傷亡數、犯罪人數逐年增加越來越多"},{"start":7467.573,"end":7476.276,"text":"警政署對於隨機殺人的犯罪模式專案評估,到底有沒有作出一個有效的預防方案?"},{"start":7481.18,"end":7505.336,"text":"請檢答是,委員好,針對隨機上展案件其實這十年來只發生過七件但這七件唯一在交通站體的部分只有一件而已那在這裡面的數字顯示的部分呢它這個是包含可能車站或周圍地區所以以112...所以你的意思是說因為件數少你們現在針對這個還沒有做任何的一個犯罪模式的評估"},{"start":7506.337,"end":7529.097,"text":"包括我們一直有在評估也在進行所以對於周遭戰體周遭我們都請轄區要去加強巡邏另外我們在相關戰體譬如包含是像鐵路警察局或地方有捷運警察隊他本身在比較大的戰體都有駐警好沒關係反正昨天這種傷害已經發生了那再來昨天還有一個新聞就是有一個殺人未遂的"},{"start":7529.838,"end":7551.398,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案件事宣布校園停止開放,但是因為台灣是一日生活圈,他可能坐一個高鐵他就直接到高雄或到台中了。所以像這種情況我們到底這個警政署我們現在"},{"start":7553.052,"end":7577.825,"text":"人民都生活在這種不安跟恐懼當中,不要說這種隨機殺人少,但是你一旦發生就沒得預防啊。是,跟委員報告,針對像這個在外的這個,就是屬於在治療中脫草的部分,它一旦發生之後,我們立即會發起臨訪機制,所以在發生的當下,所以這個逃脫兩天了,兩天還三天了。"},{"start":7580.747,"end":7599.169,"text":"五月十九逃脫,今天二十二號了,所以你們現在抓到了沒?目前還在追緝當中,因為他行蹤也不斷的在轉換交通工具。你們在公共運輸系統整個的環境沒有得監控就對了?"},{"start":7601.134,"end":7622.101,"text":"有沒有考慮人臉辨識我們看很多電影都有現在科技很進步我們現在科技執法但是都是罰民眾這個非常遵守或者非常善良的老百姓但是這些暴露在生活環境中有危險因子的你們有沒有想辦法"},{"start":7622.821,"end":7628.546,"text":"這必須法律所允許好徐委員謝謝徐委員時間已經超過三次謝謝徐委員的質詢謝謝各位官員那接下來我們請吳琪銘召委謝謝好主席我們一位同仁請我們內政部我們的次長董事長請"},{"start":7648.912,"end":7675.683,"text":"好 社長好 社長因為今天吼我們不動產估價師的部分的修正條文吼的草案以及我們兩位委員所提出的土地法第十四條明定古蹟的土地不得違是有本席的認同那這還有一條是我們蔡易餘委員的七十三條之一的第三項那本席都是兩個提案本席都予以尊重"},{"start":7676.516,"end":7703.313,"text":"那我請問社長因為齁他們兩位齁所提出來的土地齁都是有他的道理尤其呢很多我們的棋林地要公開拍賣但是齁周邊的比林地齁比林地很多都沒有沒有得到通知那會產生怎樣你繼承的絕對會通知得到但是比林地有很多都沒有辦法去通知"},{"start":7703.786,"end":7704.347,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":7710.279,"end":7732.912,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具"},{"start":7735.868,"end":7755.154,"text":"那委員所垂詢的有關於土地古蹟土地這部分本部競表認同因為那個公營事業跟法人基本行政法人基本上是由國家所任命或者是編制所以他基本上還是在法的實質上還是屬於國家所有國家在管制也就是全民共有的資產"},{"start":7756.074,"end":7776.626,"text":"那剛才也跟幾位委員有報告過,古蹟的最後的認定跟處分是由文化資產保護法來規範,所以相關的古蹟並不得隨意的轉變,除非依據文化資產保護法有任何的變動。好的,好的。那針對我們蔡易餘的73條之一的第三項,"},{"start":7777.779,"end":7789.331,"text":"尤其我們比林地的通知,通知這個部分是不是我們國產署還有我們的地震師我們一定要趕快研究才不會說造成說有經罪"},{"start":7791.189,"end":7797.05,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7819.946,"end":7828.694,"text":"前台有7500座的寺廟有將近750公頃的土地因為當初沒有辦法完成寺廟登記所以有很多問題會影響自然人登記的問題然後在我們上一屆採用我們的建民登記"},{"start":7845.509,"end":7856.513,"text":"就是目前第五條的規定申請期限只有兩年那現在這是比較急迫性即將在今年的6月9號就到期了"},{"start":7860.731,"end":7880.385,"text":"提出修正同意可延續延長兩年。這點我請處長你來回答感謝委員的垂詢那有關於相關與自然法自然人登記這部分本部會再做進一步的評估那我們會依照委員的建議來審慎來討論看如何執行這樣子因為在"},{"start":7885.117,"end":7885.678,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":7908.09,"end":7919.164,"text":"委員主席貴翁貴翁以前的問題我跟廟方都是持的對立嘛這是要改革全國才是廟的問題所以說因為本席現在所修正我們"},{"start":7926.434,"end":7942.44,"text":"有兩千四百七十六經到我們113年4月底有登記的叫533家宗教提出不動產這登記所以說在這個部分我們來登記的這個數量還是還是沒有"},{"start":7951.138,"end":7957.081,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":7976.309,"end":7995.799,"text":"委員報告,相關的我們已經也督促那個相關縣市政府積極去推動辦理請他們行文給各宗教團體跟宮廟請他們趕快來進行登記因為到6月9號還有一段時間我們會強力去推動6月19號今天已經5月底了我針對那個委員講的延長年限這部分我們部內也會儘快來討論"},{"start":8004.644,"end":8012.37,"text":"一定要快,今天已經二十幾號了,另外一段時間,這一定要很積極,我們趕快來促成啦,一全國的事業,大家都可以祈求保障啦,好不好?好,謝謝。謝謝吳琪銘召委,也謝謝我們次長跟官員,謝謝。"},{"start":8041.193,"end":8065.385,"text":"張志仁委員張志仁委員張志仁委員不在我們下一位李柏毅委員好謝謝來我們有請次長董事長還有剛才警政署上來回應的是警政署的副處長那我們警政署同仁"},{"start":8072.921,"end":8097.026,"text":"市長我稍等再請教你齁可是我剛剛對於警政署的回應我非常的不滿意齁我很嚴肅的說社會那麼矚目的案件來 警政署的同仁請你上前請你說明一下你是代表哪一個單位包括委員我是警政署刑事警察局的副局長刑事警察局副局長那你更不應該講這個話你說只有七件跟只有一件一件都不行啊"},{"start":8100.522,"end":8111.134,"text":"為了要讓國人比較放心那也請你務必請全國的這個警察同仁辛苦一下趕快把這個人抓起來讓全國國人放心好謝謝你請回請回座董事長是你"},{"start":8118.666,"end":8131.621,"text":"我們算舊事了齁那也很恭喜你來擔任內政部的次長你的前一任其實非常的難取代你前一任主導了台灣八年的住宅政策"},{"start":8134.029,"end":8150.999,"text":"目前當然整個社會住宅的這些進度國人都還在關注那所以當然董事長你也非常的有信心對於整個接下來的社宅有你的想法跟理念那我也很期待我也想要多一點時間讓你講"},{"start":8152.62,"end":8168.777,"text":"我先講我的針對今天我們召委所排定的這個不動產估價師的這個修正草案還有這些土地法那我針對不動產估價師的這一件我提出我的贊同的意見不動產估價師其實他在"},{"start":8173.083,"end":8198.341,"text":"一般我們做這些房屋或房子的買賣的時候其實我們很不會去找到不動產估價師他通常發生在資產就是說親戚親族或者是公司法人在資產上面有疑義的時候必須要做相關的處分或討論的處理的時候我們會需要不動產估價師"},{"start":8200.282,"end":8215.853,"text":"那不動產估價師他如果有狀況他直接影響到的是我剛講的這一些的直接的權益所以我的主張其實是為了不要讓需要不動產估價師的人"},{"start":8217.794,"end":8235.951,"text":"去受到利害利益的損失那我會贊同這一個修法那但是我覺得內政部要處理的還有更多就是次長你的責任還更多你知道現在房仲業就是不動產經濟的廣告是什麼他現在的廣告就是"},{"start":8237.049,"end":8262.046,"text":"為什麼要做這個廣告要讓人信任要讓在座你我要讓所有可能會要在不動產上消費的人要信任某某品牌某某品牌這個打品牌的形象這個是現在整個你在電視上也會看到的趨勢為什麼要打這個品牌的形象就是我不會讓你賣便宜我不會讓你買貴"},{"start":8263.686,"end":8288.278,"text":"我會讓價格合理我會在公開透明的資訊裡面讓你去讓我們的民眾去買到合理的他想要一輩子的住宅這個是目前不動產經濟他們每個品牌都在打的廣告每一個品牌底下的每一位不動產經濟的職業人員也都在讓客戶去信任他的這個誠實度好"},{"start":8291.112,"end":8310.114,"text":"我們也應該要在不動產經紀人的這個相關的這些法律裡面也有相關的約束這樣才對這樣才是會讓更多人可以幸福到我們其實政府有在為這件事情把關"},{"start":8312.065,"end":8333.439,"text":"來,最後考驗一下董事長的功力了齁董事長你從高雄市政府離開到現在也大概半年的時間一年多了齁,很快你在高雄市政府的時候擔任的是對媒體的工作那你現在來到內政部,我想你對於高雄市的相關的社會住宅的政策一定也非常的熟悉"},{"start":8334.139,"end":8359.373,"text":"就高雄市的社會住宅目前還有哪一些空間你覺得還可以努力的那高雄市政府有什麼你現在在這個位置你認為你有什麼有哪一些區域你可以再跟高雄市政府來做這些社宅的這些新建的這些這些更多更多量的這些方式來市長給你一點點時間來講一下"},{"start":8361.595,"end":8382.592,"text":"謝謝委員那也很感謝委員的指教我想國家對於社會住宅從過去你講高雄我們在高雄的這個部分其實我們已經在陳其邁市長任內已經有19000戶的社宅要興建而且已經對不起旁邊這位是地政司的你不用提醒他在高雄很熟來"},{"start":8383.493,"end":8411.525,"text":"市長你繼續那我們這一萬九千戶的興建量正在逐步在完成那有一部分是由高雄市政府興辦有一部分會有注入市長你知道我的選區在哪裡嗎我知道左營好那你講左營左南地區的部分呢我們現在在左營已經有一個社宅的興建那我們未來也會在左南地區包括那個我們未來台積電所在的那周邊我們也會有一些相關的可能跟捷運一起的連開案"},{"start":8412.778,"end":8441.773,"text":"來做一個興建這也是目前我們希望能夠推動的政策市長我跟你說你的前老闆陳其邁市長其實現在最也很希望推動的包含這個中油原本的宿舍區還有一些閒置的空間他對面也是台積電那如果內政部跟中油跟高雄市政府可以做這些相關的討論我希望市長可以趕快就這件事情來做進一步的推動"},{"start":8442.773,"end":8458.825,"text":"委員指教,我們也會盡快跟高雄市政府還有跟中油來做商談。好,謝謝。好,謝謝我們李博義委員的執行,謝謝。好,下一位我們鄭天才委員,鄭天才委員執行完我們休息五分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":8476.699,"end":8477.66,"text":"董事長董事長董事長"},{"start":8507.97,"end":8534.297,"text":"左列土地不得為私有不得為私有第一款海岸一定限度內之土地第二款天然形成之輻則而為公共需用者及其沿岸一定限度內之土地第四城鎮區域內水道輻則及其沿岸一定限度內之土地"},{"start":8535.601,"end":8564.23,"text":"對於這個一定限度內重點就是一定限度內到底多寬多長。好,我們看這個土地法施行法土地法施行法第五條規定土地法第十四條第一款至第四款所謂一定限度由該管直轄市或縣市地政機關會同水利主管機關劃定之"},{"start":8567.335,"end":8590.151,"text":"要跟次長說明你要跟地政司我第一次地政司你市長你上任之後也一段時間很長了吧很久了我第一次談這個這個土地法它是很久很久很久以前的法律非常古老的法律了"},{"start":8591.047,"end":8611.014,"text":"就任何法律來講,它是古老的法律,包括土地法、私刑法也是一樣。為什麼要這樣說呢?因為早期定的不是那麼的符合中央法規標準法,更是不符合後來定的什麼呢?"},{"start":8612.29,"end":8634.417,"text":"立行政程序法。行政程序法是民國九十年才開始施行。所以相關很多的需要限制人民的權利,不得私有是限制人民的權利。本來是他土地,不得私有。"},{"start":8636.395,"end":8664.089,"text":"所以這個一定限度內要有非常明確的法律的授權才對現在沒有啊就交給地方政府有沒有直轄市縣市政府會同水域主管劃定之所以都已經是不合時宜的法律了這個部分我講得很明確而且有法律的一個意義"},{"start":8665.299,"end":8693.189,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8695.477,"end":8715.3,"text":"內政部曾經參考海岸管理法海岸管理法是內政部的,是國土署的業務參佐海岸管理法的草案後來海岸管理法公布施行之後"},{"start":8716.987,"end":8737.821,"text":"內條並沒有規定,被參考的並沒有規定。後來在立法院參讀通過,行政院甚至行政院送來的也都沒有那條草案的那條規定。所以這個部分是真的是需要去審慎的去檢討。所以這樣的一個情形之下,我的建議,"},{"start":8739.264,"end":8754.213,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案 案件及其中一條文修正草案 案件及其中一條文修正草案 案件及其中一條文修正草案 案件及其中一條文修正草案 案件及其中一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8761.73,"end":8786.037,"text":"結束之後看一下我的那個修正動議希望能夠予以納入這個部分是特別請市長來市長好不好那我們在下午在主條討論的時候我們會參考那個委員的意見那我們看如何怎麼樣來修訂也尊重大院的決定好謝謝謝謝好謝謝我們鄭天才委員的執行謝謝好那我們現在休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8795.982,"end":8819.799,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8820.913,"end":8837.141,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8844.497,"end":8868.737,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8870.925,"end":8885.71,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8887.888,"end":8909.808,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8912.039,"end":8933.893,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案。"},{"start":8935.394,"end":8963.62,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條"},{"start":8964.62,"end":8991.876,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。四、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。五、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四"},{"start":8994.375,"end":9014.056,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案。"},{"start":9031.513,"end":9055.045,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9070.482,"end":9072.123,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9471.652,"end":9471.912,"text":"次長好"},{"start":9499.785,"end":9522.679,"text":"我想對於次長新上任有很多業務的推行還有一些時間所以剛開始的時候我想可能會把一些基本上面的態度跟政策的方向一方面就教於次長一方面可以希望可以了解賴清德總統新內閣他的想法"},{"start":9525.137,"end":9539.49,"text":"賴清德總統在就職演說的時候有提到有關於社會住宅的部分要延續、要擴大那我的理解是次長是承接花敬群前次長的職位對吧是好"},{"start":9541.021,"end":9567.27,"text":"因為在整個競選的過程當中當然賴清德總統說百萬的社宅但這可能是一個過度簡化的說法我們如果進一步把它具體的看應該是整理出來的表格這個樣子包租貸款17萬戶新建13萬戶租金補貼不少於10萬戶那這樣子加起來的話大概可以有40萬戶是這樣嗎?"},{"start":9572.404,"end":9579.006,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9601.055,"end":9628.932,"text":"能夠達成我相信大部分的民眾都能夠理解但在實踐這個政見或者是政策的過程當中我覺得比較實事求是的來看這些數字而不是用政見式或者是開支票式的方式來看這些數字可能對於我們實現居住正義的價值會更有意義我相信次長應該也可以認同"},{"start":9630.446,"end":9641.419,"text":"感謝委員的指教我們會努力去達到這些目標因為有提供一個合理安全的住宅其實是國人的期望我接下來要說的"},{"start":9643.26,"end":9661.816,"text":"就不要把它聽成是我在當蔡英文總統吐槽我基本上沒這個意思因為每一個總統每一任的總統每一任的部長每一任的次長基本上在他職位上面有他們應該要承擔的責任"},{"start":9662.757,"end":9688.491,"text":"但我覺得新的政府應該要在這個基礎上面記取過去的教訓才能有辦法有智慧的掌握未來我為什麼這樣子說我接下來帶市長看因為您承接花敬群市長的職位去年賴清德總統在競選總統的過程當中接受到提問的時候針對社會住宅興建12萬戶打標了嗎?"},{"start":9691.923,"end":9717.776,"text":"他的回答是說我們等到520再看看新建跟完成發報的有沒有到12萬戶那次長就您的了解有到12萬戶嗎?跟委員報告我們截至今年4月底為止我們直接新建的社會住宅發報大概已經達到10萬6千多600多戶那今年年底我們渴望達到12萬戶您看的這個表是我看的這個表嗎?"},{"start":9723.936,"end":9728.024,"text":"那你那個數字是怎麼加的?可以說明一下嗎?因為我剛剛聽到你說10萬戶4月30號我有點驚訝"},{"start":9733.035,"end":9760.999,"text":"我們基本上是以那個目前齁紀永興開工興建中以絕標帶開工的小紀是五萬兩千八百四十五戶這應該沒錯吧對我們大概在最後那個小紀的那個部分有十萬戶嘛那這是包含紀永興開工還有興建跟絕標帶興建的你是把地方加進去欸但請你看中央啊"},{"start":9762.771,"end":9772.792,"text":"中央那一欄是多少?是21913吧?是52845吧?啊你怎麼會把途方的加進去呢?"},{"start":9774.625,"end":9798.566,"text":"我跟委員報告相關的設宅從之前的政策開始都是中央補助地方興建有相關的補助款所以你所謂的達標不是指的中央直接興建是中央加地方是嗎?對沒有關係那第二個有中央直接興建的數字有中央直接興建的數字其實已經完工的4672戶"},{"start":9800.367,"end":9824.801,"text":"有2907戶是從林口市大運移過來的這個沒有錯嘛這個不是住都中心自己蓋的嘛那第二個有1,173戶是從台塘公營學院過來的嘛這也不是住都中心自己蓋的嘛所以大概現在目前已完工的大概三類啦第一個就林口市大運第二個從台塘來的"},{"start":9825.649,"end":9854.479,"text":"第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案"},{"start":9855.723,"end":9879.575,"text":"事實上是大家非常重視的事情那第二個部分我希望能夠務實地看現在的狀態非常務實地看現在的狀態這樣子我們希望4年以後8年以後能夠達標我看的主席不好意思最後30秒就結束您看一下齁上面有一些完工的日期預定是在今年的5月31號5月31號5月31號"},{"start":9884.563,"end":9912.751,"text":"這個是我最新截圖下來的應該沒有錯啦有看到嗎?像江翠好事、懷石好事、玫瑰好事對嗎?那我希望這個網站上面的資訊齁要能夠忠實客觀我為什麼這樣說好了我很快秀這個是江翠好事5月31號昨天的狀態照片長這個樣子這個是昨天我請同仁去拍的齁"},{"start":9914.366,"end":9939.496,"text":"那它上面貼的這個綠色的施工現場的公告預定完工的日期其實是在2027年的4月5號這也是昨天現場拍的照片懷石好市也是本來預定5月31號這個是昨天現場的照片要到2026年的8月29號第三個是玫瑰好市預定5月31號這也是昨天的照片"},{"start":9940.692,"end":9962.809,"text":"上面的是2027年4月19日或許這個告示牌寫得比較悲觀一點實際的狀況我大概能夠取得最update的資訊就是去現場看以及它的施工告示牌那我希望我們的內政部在做這些涉財實際狀況的公告要符合現實的狀況因為如果沒有符合現實的狀況其實沒有意義"},{"start":9967.452,"end":9977.641,"text":"因為大家去看說 今年吳琪又不要完工了 跑去現場看其實可能離完工還有好長一段距離我必須要說 這不是你的責任"},{"start":9978.581,"end":10000.018,"text":"因為你520才上任那這個是可能前面殘留下來的問題但是既然您上來了新政府新的氣象我希望說未來有關社會住宅裝實數據的呈現這個部分希望能夠可以做好可以嗎感謝委員的指教我們會跟住宅中心聯繫確認相關的數字跟時間好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員的執行"},{"start":10007.142,"end":10018.322,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案。 nouve議員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案。第二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案。第三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10029.413,"end":10029.593,"text":"主席"},{"start":10043.186,"end":10067.917,"text":"好 次長 那我現在給你看一張圖齁那這個圖就是說常常都會看到一些房子那它前面可能被鐵皮圍籬或者是家的門口被立了電線桿那基本上這樣的狀況都會造成很多產權上的一個糾紛那這個產權糾紛就如同我在做早上在做這個提案說明的時候"},{"start":10069.059,"end":10084.978,"text":"那很多狀況是來自於說因為他是無人繼承的一個不動產那這無人繼承的不動產他只要經過了15年沒有人去沒有繼承人去申請繼承登記的話那就會被這個國有財產署來做一個公開飆售"},{"start":10086.199,"end":10102.792,"text":"公開飆售,依現在的規定,它是會公告公告在公所或者是公告在村裡又做公告的話,常常會讓土地的,就是說它的林地林地所有權人,他們沒有辦法去查知道"},{"start":10103.412,"end":10103.592,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10119.642,"end":10144.929,"text":"沒有開發就變成說他的房子又一直窩在計劃道路的後面那這個計劃道路有可能他是屬於私人的那一旦發生了這個繼承的狀況然後公開飆售出去之後就造成了說整排的房子整排的房子前面都因為計劃道路去第三人飆去了然後這個第三人就用了好幾倍"},{"start":10145.949,"end":10158.705,"text":"甚至我有聽過已經開了超過五倍的價格要求說好那簡單啊你就把我這一塊土地把它前面的那部分你就把它賣掉然後就會造成很多人會因此去受傷所以我才會提案來"},{"start":10161.548,"end":10166.99,"text":"希望說怎麼改變這樣的狀況呢?就是我們只要落實通知義務我們只要把林迪的所有權利我們告知他這塊地有賠償然後讓他趕快去做他自己權利的一個評估"},{"start":10176.974,"end":10192.071,"text":"那我想要請教次長那對於我剛剛的這樣的一個說明因為我看到你們今天是認為說因為林地所有權他並不是優先購買權人但是我今天並不是為了他有沒有優先購買權我只是要讓他知道"},{"start":10195.155,"end":10214.493,"text":"他周邊的土地會被拍賣的這一個事實然後好讓他可以預先做好他自己未來可能會遭遇狀況然後他是否要在這個拍賣的程序中去出手那這個是我的一個建議然後我想請教市長對我這樣的一個修法你的看法呢"},{"start":10215.59,"end":10243.551,"text":"感謝委員的垂詢我想本部基於全責那在由地政司跟相關的全責單位我們都做研議過事實上我也承認那委員所提的這個的確是在一定程序上面我們有看過類似的案例但是我們可能比較期待的是說本部會加強我們相關的行政作為就是透過行政作為的方式在這個土地因為我們現在有公告三個月等等這些程序"},{"start":10244.031,"end":10244.332,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10262.284,"end":10288.036,"text":"那個在行政負擔上面真的是會引起很大的壓力但是委員所告知的這個事情是的確是民怨我很了解那我們會期待說是不是在下午協商的時候我們進一步跟委員討論我們如何在強化行政上市長因為我剛剛有聽王美惠委員稍微跟我分析他說這個如果是在都市的大樓"},{"start":10289.616,"end":10315.372,"text":"大樓的話其中一個池分一個部分被拍賣那它比鄰地那要通知又要通知那通知會沒完沒了會通知到那個涵設的效率又太大所以我剛剛也有稍微思考一下那如果我們把它限縮那它是整個地號拍賣的話才必須通知我們去把它做一個範圍性的限縮就是說我是整塊地"},{"start":10317.759,"end":10335.082,"text":"議員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件"},{"start":10335.623,"end":10340.606,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":10356.335,"end":10373.628,"text":"造成這些比靈地的人他因為沒有被通知然後他受到傷害的時候他會甚至去公所提起訴訟然後去後續的狀況會延伸一堆那所以這是我以上一個建議那我希望下午如果在做條文討論的時候我們可以有"},{"start":10374.13,"end":10399.147,"text":"有效的可以解決這樣的方式,好不好?本部感謝委員的提案。委員所有的建議其實對於解決土地的明末其實還有那個民怨非常的重要。那我們下午的時候會積極跟委員在做溝通。我們看如何從不同的作為上面,特別行政作為上,去強化這件事情。我們也會跟國產署這邊合作。讓這件事情真的不要造成民怨。好,謝謝。謝謝我們蔡易委員的執行,謝謝。"},{"start":10403.69,"end":10412.316,"text":"楊瓊英委員不在莊瑞雄委員不在林思敏委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在丁學忠委員請執行"},{"start":10433.208,"end":10438.18,"text":"主席好,感謝主席,我要請阿蘭次長。請我們董次長。謝謝。"},{"start":10443.553,"end":10449.9,"text":"市長好委員好恭喜啊謝謝委員我們新內閣我們這個外交局長當然記者會有講過我們這個居住正義是一個重點是代表我們新議長對我們這個年輕人要去處這個問題因為是非常了解"},{"start":10465.737,"end":10484.889,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案 案件,三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,三、審查委員林岱樺等"},{"start":10495.376,"end":10500.138,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10520.487,"end":10525.329,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案件事項》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10541.696,"end":10544.878,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10571.004,"end":10576.93,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10582.861,"end":10583.302,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10604.243,"end":10610.406,"text":"高房價、低薪水有可能造成年輕人不想成家的重大原因。希望新政府針對高房價、低薪水的過分要來重視。希望市長過去針對租屋的補助"},{"start":10630.495,"end":10635.198,"text":"四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10651.209,"end":10651.429,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10673.749,"end":10673.989,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":10704.189,"end":10730.852,"text":"因將來無法去委會處,我們請問他們的首次購屋,我們這個購屋的歷史,我們看要怎麼幫他們倒三天。這個國分市長,看市長有沒有認同。這給委員報告,謝謝委員的指教。我想高房價本來就是政府極力要避免的。我們在強化住宅政策、社宅政策還有租屋補貼都希望能夠讓大家有合理的房子可以住。"},{"start":10731.392,"end":10738.72,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案。」案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":10755.896,"end":10762.259,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案件,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案 案件,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":10778.045,"end":10785.291,"text":"我相信這部分我們內政部會跟其他部會一起來討論感謝委員的指教我相信讓年輕人一個安心可以大的地方大家可以安心睡覺真的國家的那個國力這是很重要的好,再感謝次長辛苦您感謝謝謝謝謝我們聽謝中委員的資訊謝謝下一位我們邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在"},{"start":10805.347,"end":10812.373,"text":"何新淳、何新淳、何新淳委員不在林子英、林子英、林子英委員不在"},{"start":10828.206,"end":10841.011,"text":"除登記發言委員除不在場之外,其已經院發言完畢,審打結束。高津市美所提市面執行列入記錄刊登公報。市面執行合會答覆部分,請相關單位一周內以市面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":10854.431,"end":10871.929,"text":"那現在我們進行討論事項第一案第二案第三案法案審查請先讀條文請一併先讀先讀完畢後再進行協商那我們還有修正動議一併修讀一併先讀好謝謝"},{"start":10876.107,"end":10890.287,"text":"不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案。第八條刪除第一項第二款,原第三四款,以列第二三款。第二項前段修正為依前項第二款或第三款註銷開業證書者,其餘同線型條文。"},{"start":10893.291,"end":10920.462,"text":"增訂第18條之一不動產估價師事務所得聘僱不動產估價助理員協助不動產估價師執行不動產估價業務不動產估價師對於協助其執行業務之不動產估價助理員應三進管理監督之責增訂第18條之二簽條不動產估價助理員應具備下列資格之一一、不動產估價師考試及格者二、具不動產估價師考試應試資格者三、大專校院以上學校地震不動產與城鄉環境"},{"start":10921.903,"end":10942.62,"text":"土地資源、土地管理與開發、都市計劃、不動產經營、資產管理、測量與空間資訊相關學系、竹所、畢業或獲取的不動產相關學程證明者。四、高等考試、地政、都市計劃、測量、製圖、直系考試及格者。五、本法中華民國一百十三年全日修正之條文施行前以協助不動產估價師實際執行前條第二項業務滿四年之在職騙僱員工"},{"start":10947.464,"end":10972.967,"text":"不動產估價師事務所僱用不動產估價助理員因與僱傭關係開始或終止之日起時日內向中華民國不動產估價師工會全國聯合工會辦理登錄。第三第五款是在職聘僱員工不動產估價師事務所因與本法中華民國一百十三年全日修正之條文施行後一個月內以前項規定向全國聯合會辦理登錄。"},{"start":10973.747,"end":10995.144,"text":"前日向不動產估價助理員登入事宜之辦理方式、書表格式及其他相關事項由全國聯合會定制並到中央主管機關被查。第46條增訂第二項本法中華民國一百十三年全日全日修正之條文自公佈後六個月施行其餘同線型條文。土地法第十四條"},{"start":10997.652,"end":11013.081,"text":"爭定第四項行政法人及公營事業機構有經營或使用第一項第九款民生古蹟土地之需要並經中央文化主管機關認定古蹟土地已轉為其所有可駐於古蹟保存及維護者不在此限其與同先行條文。"},{"start":11014.262,"end":11032.9,"text":"委員蔡易餘等17人提案第73條之一第三項前段修正為依第二項規定標註土地或建築改良入錢應供告三個月並書面通知繼承人及批林地所有人、攀乃土地持份人。其餘同現行條文。修正動議不動產估價師第八條"},{"start":11037.594,"end":11066.597,"text":"第一項第二款修正為離患精神疾病或身心狀況違常經主管機關委請兩位以上相關專科醫師諮詢並經主管機關認定不能執行業務者其餘同線型條文。第十八條之二第一項第三款修正為大專校院以上學校畢業修避不動產及土地估價不動產法土地利用不動產投資與市場及不動產經濟等領域相關課程和計時學分以上。"},{"start":11068.208,"end":11097.339,"text":"第五款後段修正為以協助不動產估價師實際執行前條業務滿兩年之在職聘僱員工。第二、三、四項之中華民國不動產估價師全國工會全國聯合會以及全國聯合會等文字修正為不動產估價師工會全國聯合會其餘同委員吳琪銘等17人提案。提案人委員麥玉珍等三人。"},{"start":11098.956,"end":11118.986,"text":"第十八條之二,修正動議二。第十八條之二,第一項第五款後段修正為以協助不動產估價師實際執行前條業務滿四年之在職聘僱員工。齊一彤、委員吳琪銘等17人提案。提案人委員李博義等三人。"},{"start":11120.737,"end":11145.007,"text":"修正動議三、第八條刪除第一項第二款原第三、四款一列第二、三款增訂第一項第四款有客觀事實足認其身心狀況不能執行業務經中央主管機關委請不動產估價師公會代表、學者、專家及二位以上相關專科醫師組成小組認定其與同現行條文提案人委員徐欣盈等三人"},{"start":11146.874,"end":11168.069,"text":"第18條之二第一項第四款增訂財稅金融直系第五款後段修正為以協助不動產估價師實際執行前條業務滿二年之在職聘僱員工第三四項之全國聯合會修正為中華民國不動產估價師工會全國聯合會"},{"start":11172.845,"end":11177.715,"text":"其餘同委員吳琪銘等17人提案提案人委員張志倫等3人"},{"start":11180.658,"end":11209.858,"text":"土地法修正動議一、第十四條第三項修正為,符合下列情形之一者,不受第一項第九款規定之限制,依日據時其原屬私有、臺灣光復後登記為公有,依法得贈予遺傳為私有之民生古蹟。二、公營事業機構及行政法人有經營或使用古蹟土地需要,並經中央文化主管機關認定古蹟土地遺傳為其所有可駐於古蹟保存及維護。"},{"start":11210.918,"end":11234.278,"text":"提案人委員吳琪銘等四人修正動議二第十四條增訂第四項第一項第一款至第四款有關一定限度之範圍及劃設應從其相關法律規定辦理無法律規定者另依法律定之其餘同現行條文提案人委員高金素美等四人宣讀完畢"},{"start":11248.703,"end":11273.231,"text":"現在我們進行不動產估價師法主條討論首先進行第8條條文討論第8條有兩個修正動議有麥一貞委員還有徐欣盈委員我們第一頁跟第四頁大家看一下"},{"start":11287.977,"end":11292.54,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11305.151,"end":11306.454,"text":"行政委員、行政委員、行政委員"},{"start":11316.984,"end":11343.923,"text":"本席修正動議主要是增加第四項因為刪除了原本的第二項那主要就是針對有一些人他可能還沒有到他的身心狀況還沒有到這個監護宣告或輔助宣告的情況但是實際上可能也不一定很適合職業所以我們特別加了第四項"},{"start":11344.904,"end":11359.753,"text":"主要是這樣的一個宗旨,謝謝好的,謝謝許新宇委員提出的小政動議我們各位委員,大家的意見提出來然後再等我們行政單位來做一併的回答好,那現在我們就請內政部處長"},{"start":11370.953,"end":11395.868,"text":"我們就針對我們的修正動議好不好那個修正動議這部分我是不是請市長做完整的回應好的好的好那個各位委員還有召委針對於今天第8條估價師法第8條的有兩位委員提的修正動議那我就重整來講我想委員提的這個修正動議也非常的一個合理那我們也參考了"},{"start":11398.272,"end":11420.882,"text":"參考了近期的109年的一個律師法的一個修正的一個體力剛剛徐委員的一些顧慮還有剛剛麥偉珍委員提案的顧慮那針對這個部分我們參考一個目前最新的一個立法例的話我們把它建立修正為我想徐委員那個第四項我們是不是還是回來到第二項因為我們第二項沒有要刪除"},{"start":11422.102,"end":11437.315,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17"},{"start":11449.946,"end":11470.515,"text":"不動產估價師專家學者組成小組來認定那為什麼我們這邊是直轄市縣市政府因為開業的這個證書是由直轄市縣市政府來來開這個證書所以我們這邊是用直轄市縣市政府可能跟學員說明一下"},{"start":11474.788,"end":11489.08,"text":"除了專科醫師以外是不是在增加這個業不動產估價師也許他們工會會派人這邊來一起來討論然後再邀請一些專家學者我想這個目前的燕光司法也有這樣一個立法例"},{"start":11489.48,"end":11495.642,"text":"第二案如經院會第二案如經院會第四案如經院會第四案如經院會第四案如經院會第四案如經院會第四案如經院會第四"},{"start":11508.326,"end":11535.897,"text":"大概修正的數字大概在這裏那個徐委員大家我覺得內政部這樣應該OK啦我OK啦好啦你不用解釋那麼多立委都很聰明啦你不要我們就照你們的這樣就好了啦好不好好那我們第8條就照內政部的修正動議我們就來通過大家有沒有意見沒意見好那第8條我們就修正通過啦謝謝"},{"start":11540.285,"end":11541.165,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11563.53,"end":11585.275,"text":"應該要有定義更加清晰。剛才我也在說事實上不讓查告公司查告書的助理完全代理不動產的查告的這款。但是書裡面我有一點疑問的就是另外一種我來講規定專業的人士要這些"},{"start":11593.863,"end":11608.346,"text":"職業情愛照貴助力請求伙計書不請來看,咱不動產的草稿書,助力兩個都沒了。第18條之二我們現在討論第18條之一"},{"start":11622.67,"end":11623.491,"text":"十八條之一"},{"start":11635.219,"end":11659.609,"text":"主席,剛才我說的是不是可以來分析以我們的單位好,沒關係,好,每位你提出等一下我們再請行政單位回答然後我們18條之二有我們麥益臻委員還有李柏益委員,來柏益委員我提一下我的修正動議就是在第五項裡面把這個第二項三個文字把它刪掉"},{"start":11661.241,"end":11682.959,"text":"很簡單就這樣謝謝好謝謝謝謝我們李博義委員那請我們張志倫委員好主席好各位官員大家早安我這邊有一個提出一個修正動議針對不動產估價師法第18條之二第一項第四款我希望在這個高層考試地震都市計畫"},{"start":11685.14,"end":11713.109,"text":"測量製圖還要再加上一個財稅金融直系考試及格者加上一個財稅金融因為這個不動產估價師他稱賬到比較複雜的一些數學計算的方式而且本身我也是財經背景的我認為說很多財經背景的人他對這個不動產估價師他也蠻有興趣的而且很多人他是不動產估價師的執照也有會計師的執照也有所以我希望說在助理人員的部分可以把這個加進去供大家參考"},{"start":11713.849,"end":11717.251,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":11744.25,"end":11747.594,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11757.813,"end":11781.003,"text":"那我的這個估價助理員的資格會不會被拿走因為我才工作兩年現在如果通過這個法條要滿四年我只有滿兩年那我就不是不是這個助理員的話其實會造成他們那個估價師事務所裡面的一個一個問題或是一些有些人的權益會做一個喪失的一個動作那我覺得滿一年可能大家覺得他的這個"},{"start":11782.323,"end":11808.219,"text":"職業資格不是那麼的完備兩年我認為就很多的其他的法令來講是蠻OK的一個資格的所以拜託各位委員跟我們這個內政部這邊可以來做考量以上謝謝好謝謝我們張志仁委員的提案說明那我們修正動議我們的張志仁委員李柏毅委員麥益貞委員還有王美惠委員所提出我們現在請行政單位來做回覆"},{"start":11811.032,"end":11837.96,"text":"好謝謝那謝謝各位委員吼那我這邊啊就根據啊幾位委員所提的這個啊修正動議我就一併把一款一款的來做一下一下來做說明啊那針對啊剛剛啊蔓依珍委員呢是有提到第一項啊18條之二第一項第三款啊第三款的話啊我們原本那個吳委員所提吳清平委員所提的就是用"},{"start":11838.96,"end":11850.231,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案件 。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案件 案件"},{"start":11858.098,"end":11882.624,"text":"建議來做修正大專院校以上學校畢業修避不動產及土地估價、不動產法、土地利用、不動產投資與市場及不動產經濟等領域相關課程合計十個學分以上"},{"start":11883.484,"end":11899.9,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案件。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。"},{"start":11907.808,"end":11912.132,"text":"第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會第三案如經院會"},{"start":11928.706,"end":11945.813,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案件。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。 nouve法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。第二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。第三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。"},{"start":11951.215,"end":11961.162,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案 案。二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案 案。」案。"},{"start":11977.773,"end":11978.694,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具"},{"start":11994.752,"end":12016.379,"text":"第二項這個是做修正的一個文字那下面的第三項也是一樣做修正文字這個體力讓他跟後面的22條這整個估價師法裡面的體力是一樣是不動產估價師公會全聯會這個名稱在後面已經有了所以我們這邊就之前吳委員所提的這個"},{"start":12017.839,"end":12021.36,"text":"二、審查委員李柏毅等17人擬具李柏毅等17人擬具李柏毅等17人擬具"},{"start":12047.81,"end":12074.839,"text":"謝謝我也是想要問這個到底要滿幾年的部分因為其實在全聯會全聯會公佈的辦法好像是一年而有對那因為現在你們我們交委的版本是四年嘛然後我們現在有兩個修正動議的版本是兩年我沒有覺得哪一個好我只是覺得說這個評估的依據是不是還是請內政部提供一個目前業界大概是幾年比較怎樣的資格四年會不會"},{"start":12075.199,"end":12075.6,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":12087.023,"end":12098.692,"text":"兩年跟一年的差異來,你們可以再講細緻一點。好的,謝謝王姐,先讓王美惠委員。主席,我認為我們今天可能討論的就是這個幾檔這個整個電力車,我認為要解決這個問題,我認為我們也不要太過草率,因為你剛才,你剛才說的4檔存50%"},{"start":12113.834,"end":12116.955,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12142.452,"end":12155.656,"text":"你現在沒那麼多人一定要委託他助理去看嘛去了解去看回來跟他查過公司說他沒錢看要經營什麼行所以我們怕像剛才市長說的說你4天後存50%但是你不可以想到說4天後存50%很簡單的來解決這個問題所以剛才我的質詢就是"},{"start":12172.742,"end":12176.924,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案件事項》。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":12185.987,"end":12187.008,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12210.777,"end":12211.517,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12224.447,"end":12238.558,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案件事項﹖一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件"},{"start":12243.561,"end":12267.051,"text":"對,對,現在的估價助理這部分是要說估價助理啊認為兩檔齁,對不對不管是外業的這個查估、調查還是跟內業的整理、分析事實上兩檔一個養成訓練來講的話是足以來可以來當這個估價師的助理員所以委員拜託,我們有跟他合謀的,有溝通過的啦"},{"start":12269.232,"end":12294.745,"text":"委員拜託啦因為問題好好解釋我們要教他們讓他們了解一些東西你也要花一點時間這包括說他要去實習他要去現地去了解因為問題課上面講的東西跟他實質上到現場去看他還需要一些經驗上的判準跟學習這個是要花一點時間你說一年我個人真的覺得因為我們自己當過學校老師"},{"start":12295.865,"end":12296.505,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":12323.977,"end":12350.958,"text":"業界的實際需要是一件事人才的培養我覺得這個要有經驗我個人認為我覺得兩年應該是差不多如果這個他很認真我覺得兩年應該是比較合理好那上次委員我提議兩年你提議兩年吳琪琪提議四年"},{"start":12352.889,"end":12353.529,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12368.967,"end":12396.626,"text":"當然剛剛洪祿委員講的一年兩年四年各有各的考量現在應該是說這個不動產估價師他的助理好不好請好不好聘就是說300多個我們在這裡討論好像是感覺在各縣市可能高雄不到50個不到助理"},{"start":12397.566,"end":12403.988,"text":"二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案件,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案 案件,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案 案件,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案 案件,不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":12415.672,"end":12438.498,"text":"那我不是反對但是我是就原本的這些職系裡面來講他在大學裡面幾乎是地政系然後或者是都市計畫系那或者是城鄉等等的跟財、稅、金融是完全不一樣的科別跟細別"},{"start":12441.983,"end":12459.611,"text":"那這一方面剛剛只是說有這個因為我們這個原本在我們地政都市計畫測量裡面有財稅金融但是財稅金融裡面沒有都市計畫測量等等的這些直系所以這一方面是不是請市長也做這一方面的說明第四款"},{"start":12463.253,"end":12485.104,"text":"請我們行政大會周昇明這個部分我來跟委員們報告就是說原則上我們希望是說透過不是只有指定相關科系而是修相關學分那也跟委員報告說現在在各大學裡面我們都主張就是對他們自己就有相關的科系第一個就是說他們自己"},{"start":12486.805,"end":12514.678,"text":"協會就有這個規範那第二個就是說在各大學裡面也跟各位委員報告我們現在都有所謂的跨領域學習我們有很多綜合的課程所以委員也不用擔心以後我們這個法一旦通過這樣子大概相關大學就會自己去去合成相關的學程那鼓勵學生因為站在我們大學的立場就是我培養的孩子要有頭腦啦這個頭腦既然這麼重要有這麼多人需要一定有很多孩子想要養"},{"start":12515.999,"end":12516.299,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":12536.535,"end":12557.133,"text":"因為我們學習土地的人有時候對於金融財務的管理沒有那麼清楚我們也會鼓勵他們去這些金融管理的相關的科系做學習現在許多大學大概都有設置類似這樣子的跨領域的學習那也跟委員報告我們現在還有那什麼A系進B系出的這太多規範所以這個都不用擔心他們的專業能力的學習這樣謝謝"},{"start":12559.435,"end":12561.317,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12575.547,"end":12575.607,"text":"主席"},{"start":12591.474,"end":12609.165,"text":"及委員各個,因為現在我們還沒立這個制度以前,他們的不動產估價師,他們裡面就有一個不動產估價助理的一個管理辦法,他自己本身自己定的一個辦法裡面,他就把財務金融這個直系把它放進去了啦。"},{"start":12609.545,"end":12611.246,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12636.072,"end":12637.514,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12653.655,"end":12676.361,"text":"他要當估價師還是要另外考試不是他有這個他永遠他就是估價師這不是喔大家可能要先思考這一個那再來所以科系如果內政部認為也是OK我個人覺得就尊重內政部剛說的這一個"},{"start":12677.361,"end":12678.281,"text":"二、審查委員麥一貞委員"},{"start":12697.3,"end":12721.226,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席謝謝我們內政部這邊我們也是想要推兩年因為現在很缺人對 那個顧家思也專程來到我們民眾黨來跟我們說明所以我們也希望說就是兩年讓大家可以更多顧家思來去做這個行業現在很缺人所以以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":12724.186,"end":12736.79,"text":"這個我必須要講這跟缺人是兩件事我們缺人缺人是一件事情有沒有缺人那是這個但要有一個專業剛剛內政部我認為兩年的時間來培訓"},{"start":12740.911,"end":12741.892,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":12768.898,"end":12795.217,"text":"主席、審查會各位委員大家好法治局針對的第18條之二提供一些法治建議供請審查會參考第一個意見是有關於18條之二的第三款部分第三款部分目前修正的文字有提到不動產及土地估價那因為依照民法的規定它不動產就包含土地的部分所以是不是把這個不動產及土地估價及土地這三個字刪掉"},{"start":12795.657,"end":12796.097,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":12812.363,"end":12820.725,"text":"五、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12838.849,"end":12863.188,"text":"具末都沒有摺字,那現行的第一款、第二款跟第四款都有摺字,那建議就是法制用語的體力是一致的,是不是把第一款、第二款跟第四款具末的摺字拿掉。嘿,以上建議。好,謝謝,謝謝我們法治局,謝謝。那請我們行政單位來做補充。剛剛那個法治局所提的意見,我們現在會再同意,因為不動產"},{"start":12864.462,"end":12891.048,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案件。三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案件。 nouve議案案件。第二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案件。第三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案件。第二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案件。第三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人"},{"start":12892.588,"end":12893.529,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12921.998,"end":12932.113,"text":"四、六條相對單純不然就照本席提案通過四十六條就照本席提案通過謝謝"},{"start":12937.042,"end":12964.622,"text":"好,那我們繼續我們來處理我們土地法第十四條的條文來,第十四條的條文有本席的條文還有林岱樺委員的條文還有我們高津樹美以及鄭天才委員的修正動議大家看一下"},{"start":12972.905,"end":12997.305,"text":"行政單位有沒有問題行政單位說明依據林岱樺委員所提的意見因為委員今天又有提一個建議修正文字建議修正文字事實上是比較符合立法體力我們也完全尊重林岱樺委員所提的建議修正動議案"},{"start":12999.887,"end":13005.253,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在待會就建議採用林岱樺委員的來禮博議委員"},{"start":13013.597,"end":13027.027,"text":"除了這個修正動議以外這個原本提的條文就是說行政法人跟公營事業機構如果他有在委管這個中央文化主管機關認定的古蹟"},{"start":13034.369,"end":13054.422,"text":"就有可以移轉給私人的產權,是產權的部分嗎?這個是不是請這個說明一下因為這個很容易會被認為就是說怎麼會把古蹟移轉給私人這個產權的部分這個很容易我講一下"},{"start":13055.723,"end":13070.792,"text":"因為現在目前文資法裡面事實上它的古蹟可以為私人所有我們今天要修改的部分只是對公營事業跟行政法人這兩個因為他也是建副事實上都是類似國家的一個機構"},{"start":13073.234,"end":13084.197,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":13101.92,"end":13121.544,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案案案件。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。netes1、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。נס1、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。נס2、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案件。נס3、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":13130.226,"end":13156.026,"text":"這樣移轉過去以後可助於古蹟的保存和維護所以這個部分事實上是OK的可是你這個他下面的這個第1款日據時期原屬私有台灣公富後登記為公有依法得證與移轉為私有之名勝古蹟這個你解說一下"},{"start":13161.798,"end":13163.6,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":13185.718,"end":13210.59,"text":"可以謝謝張委員幫我再更清楚化這個問題如果是這樣子就是說由國產署到教會這個其實社會大眾就聽得懂你在做什麼就不會有這個問題啦我們是為了這個那他是排除掉說不是給私人教會喔這個是不是給私人財產喔這個是給教會那這樣大眾就可以接受"},{"start":13212.116,"end":13212.876,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13242.093,"end":13270.022,"text":"好,那我們請行政部門針對我們蔡易餘委員所提出的好,那個這個部分的話我跟委員報告一下我知道委員今天提案主要的重點就是說隔壁的土地啦你也不是說一定要通知繼承人那些"},{"start":13271.212,"end":13280.063,"text":"那個問題應該不是重點啦,是說價別的土地啦這個部分來講的話,我想說真的是如果要剛剛其實王爺提到說價格也有可能這個問題嘛"},{"start":13286.684,"end":13287.085,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13306.155,"end":13309.738,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":13335.916,"end":13354.919,"text":"所以,而且我們公告的地點事實上包括鄉鎮公所公所啦,地政事務所啦,還有里長的村里的辦公室,我們都有大功課啦我們都有大功課,在這裡國產署現在在網站上,如果要表售,網站上他也會公公在頭上表售"},{"start":13355.76,"end":13381.371,"text":"那這一部分來講我想我們後面怎麼去執行我們再跟國產署這邊再來聯繫我們是不是從行政政委上來強化例如在除了現在目前來講除了地號以外地號阿是不是我們的地圖地級圖這個部分我們也來請國產署這邊是不是由我們地政機關來提供也可以或者是國產署這邊來提供我們行政政委我們來強化"},{"start":13382.888,"end":13400.625,"text":"我們來強化因為現在要立法會我告訴委員有一個問題你如果說立法會要通緝他界別的這個毗鄰土地四周的土地很多以前如果人很多的時候一個沒通緝到他連天要站的時候那也很難處理就像那個大樓有大樓旁邊的農地也有可能他也是可能很多人的界線人很多的"},{"start":13415.11,"end":13417.092,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":13429.284,"end":13445.351,"text":"市長,現在不好意思來打岔一下,現在的問題我們就是有正確的,跟可能特官司常議會說的說議會、議會說的,因為我們正確的就是,你要在旁邊的時候大樓,你如果中間就要打賣,你的困難點會在旁邊,如果像說台北市剛才三棟都大樓,"},{"start":13455.796,"end":13458.218,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":13475.48,"end":13481.083,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具《土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":13498.148,"end":13504.51,"text":"她的問題,要去買的時候,像她說的,打個五倍啦。她說,我是聽她說說,拍賣的時候,八幾萬,現在三八萬要買,她說不買啦。不然再去換她的時候,她要繞一條路,車子可以過,給她而已啦。"},{"start":13519.722,"end":13541.766,"text":"這就是我們未來修出來的問題是改革發生的問題,不是修出來發生覺得你更困惑啦,我們就好煩就這樣啦,好不好?好,謝謝王美惠委員。蔡易餘委員。那就是說,那個公告三個月,有的同時,你們這就要在那塊地上查,查法的資訊。"},{"start":13549.888,"end":13574.246,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案 案 吳琪銘等17人擬具:「"},{"start":13576.718,"end":13576.838,"text":"麥克風 麥克風"},{"start":13587.546,"end":13611.957,"text":"對,這個可能會涉及到就是說影響到那個繼承人的一些權益啦可能處分的一個價款裡面會有扣除這些費用的這樣的一個疑慮啦你費用都拿繼承人貼現在我們有訪價過如果要實際去做一個插牌的這樣的動作大概每一個標的可能要上千塊這樣子是"},{"start":13615.018,"end":13616.359,"text":"美匯委員跟易餘委員講的問題就是同一個就是會看公告的人"},{"start":13639.229,"end":13663.34,"text":"就是會獲得價差的人真正林地不會看到這個公告這個就是我們行政技術上怎麼樣可以協助不管是地政室或者是尤其是國產署尤其是國產署尤其是國產署怎麼樣不要造成這個問題而且國產署還有另外一個問題"},{"start":13664.625,"end":13682.478,"text":"你們有一些被佔用地也遇到這個問題你們被佔用地的價值前10名都拿出來都拿出來拍賣或招租造成更大的社會問題所以這個行政上這個行政上可能我覺得問題在這邊對大概分兩個層面一個就是說"},{"start":13691.345,"end":13715.143,"text":"大概分兩個層面現在就是實務執行上面這個土地的一個座落可能如果真的要去做一個插牌的動作我們是希望在地的地政機關必須要幫我們協助說這個土地在哪裡因為那個是屬於私有土地不是國有土地如果是國有土地我每一筆我們都有資料都可以很明確"},{"start":13715.943,"end":13738.637,"text":"在哪個地方?那所以如果真的是在行政作業上面必須要地政機關予以協助啦好請我們次長我想這樣子啦我覺得委員提案的重點就是要解決民怨不要讓人民覺得說國家無作為甚至害他損失所以我們"},{"start":13739.437,"end":13742.38,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案件》案。四、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":13768.394,"end":13772.802,"text":"立法院第11屆第2次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會"},{"start":13775.508,"end":13798.682,"text":"這個部分我想我們會公告在村里長的這個辦公室嘛吼那這部分我們再來強化我們的行政座就是說畫面喔立定這個人倒三天啦再來第二部分這倒的部分吼我想我們也會一併再來公告因為這現在目前來講的話是只有地號啦啊說一台地號一套的其實不知道啦啊我們如果把它倒一併來提供吼"},{"start":13799.202,"end":13799.582,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":13826.031,"end":13843.472,"text":"我跟你講啦 就是只有這樣啦你說不修法 我也認為我支持啦但 你們的行政作為要積極啦這是你們可以去做的啦不用在這邊跟立委討論你要怎麼做啦那我們覺得你們就是 我認為去插個牌子"},{"start":13844.482,"end":13845.663,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具"},{"start":13864.656,"end":13885.452,"text":"我跟你講這個我認為是行政就去處理的事情啊可以做的啊這政府本來就要做的我們不用修法但你們要做我覺得就是這樣子而已啊主席你做個財事就好了這一條就可以處理啦好的謝謝我們張宏祿委員所提出的我們國端署有沒有問題"},{"start":13891.701,"end":13907.035,"text":"內政部會跟財政部針對行政會議的這部分我們再一起討論你們兩個單位在一起協調吧我們蔡議員所提出的確實告訴民眾是我們的義務所以未來都會擦牌子喔"},{"start":13908.374,"end":13911.018,"text":"蔡議員他們都已經這樣成了我們要照我們現前的條文好不好"},{"start":13926.616,"end":13953.617,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具、「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具、「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具、「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具、「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案。二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具、「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具、「土地法第十"},{"start":13956.307,"end":13980.981,"text":"徵定第十八條之一照委員吳琪銘等提案草案通過。徵定第十八條之二修正通過。第四十六條照委員吳琪銘等提案通過。土地法第十四條照委員吳琪銘等提案修正動議通過。第七十三條之一為此現行法條文不予修正。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":13981.974,"end":14000.046,"text":"好謝謝請各位委員照剛才協商結論通過請各位委員有沒有異議好沒異議那本次的會議審查通過條文相關的法制用以授權主席與議事人員整理"},{"start":14001.601,"end":14019.597,"text":"那以下決議討論事項一、不動產估價師部分條文修正草案。二、以審查環境擬具審查報告提報院會討論。請問各位在場委員需不需要黨船協商?不需要"},{"start":14023.942,"end":14024.723,"text":"議員主席議員主席議員主席"},{"start":14056.043,"end":14073.363,"text":"請問在場委員需不需要黨團協商不需要啦那本案以院會討論時由本席吳昭吉委員齊名作為補充說明那本次的會議我們就到此結束散會"},{"start":14074.619,"end":14076.461,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14091.905,"end":14115.231,"text":"二、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"}]}},{"id":"15937","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15937","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbfb6a56bedfdb3c81d6a76734f73991823be8d109af184be435b155ddefcb3f9e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-22","start_time":"2024-05-22T08:31:03+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:04:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16377,"委員發言時間":"08:31:03 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WORLD這個協會也一直在協助參與這個溝通跟擬訂草案的過程就在我們現在說話的時候"},{"start":2068.98,"end":2094.394,"text":"這些我們台灣的家人、國際的朋友也正在線上觀看著我們這個修法的過程所以這個法案已經經過兩年的溝通協調那因為借期不連續我們在這一屆又重新提出我們希望在第21條之一修增訂在台灣"},{"start":2096.072,"end":2116.877,"text":"累積居住達十年以上﹐那他有相關的就業、繳納稅金、他有盡他的義務相關的規定﹐那他可以適用身心障礙者權益保障法第50條及第51條﹐以及長照照顧服務申請及給付辦法之規定﹐"},{"start":2119.828,"end":2128.834,"text":"這個案子沒有爭議也許其他的法案跟這個法不一樣但它有跟時間賽跑的壓力我們的"},{"start":2130.612,"end":2156.313,"text":"家人們也許他皮膚是白的黑的不管他來自哪一州哪一國他們在台灣奉獻他們青春在他面對困境的時候這個法能夠早一天通過我們就可以讓他們知道台灣不只是他們工作賺錢納稅的地方台灣是他們的家所以謝謝主席兼排審也相信我們的邱運昭委"},{"start":2157.133,"end":2181.925,"text":"應該特別能體會到類似這樣的法案就像你一直在推動的再生醫療法一樣它其實不應該有爭議它唯一的壓力是來自於跟時間賽跑希望我們所有的同仁所有的委員所有我們在場的官員能夠協助這個法盡速修訂完成它已經慢了我們希望能夠更早完成謝謝以上是本席的提案說明好 謝謝"},{"start":2184.898,"end":2188.119,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員接下來我們請羅美玲委員進行提案說明主席、各位官員、各位同仁大家早安我們世界上有許多國家比如說像德國、紐西蘭、日本、加拿大、南韓等等都面臨了這個少子化的壓力所以逐步放寬移民法規跟政策以加強攬財"},{"start":2212.788,"end":2218.011,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":2242.023,"end":2269.385,"text":"因此,若是說我國政府投入了這麼多的公共資源之後卻無法將橋外人才留台就業甚至吸引其在台灣成家立業者,則是非常的可惜也可以說是政府資源的浪費因此這次的《外國專業人才延攬及僱用法》的修法本期提案針對橋外生在我國居留並就學"},{"start":2270.666,"end":2295.829,"text":"取得我國副學士學士學位者放寬其申請我國永居時得以折抵我國居留期間一到兩年。另外,曾符合修業年限規定並留在我國從事專業工作者均得以折抵申請永居之連續居留期間,以利台灣吸納更多的外專人才留台。"},{"start":2296.089,"end":2298.772,"text":"一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、"},{"start":2312.106,"end":2320.599,"text":"還有教育部必須要跨部會通盤嚴謹第一點就是最終推動取消僱外生評點制的名額上限第二點推動僱外生個人的工作許可"},{"start":2327.388,"end":2342.223,"text":"現行的僱外生平點制限制只能從事專門技術性工作嚴密新增個人工作許可制讓其就業選擇更多元第三點放寬企業資本營業額規範並簡化申請的流程第四點"},{"start":2349.21,"end":2360.815,"text":"延逸喬外申畢業尋職期間的公讀方案,而且不限於專門性或技術性的工作。以上是我的提案,也懇請各位委員同仁支持。"},{"start":2369.649,"end":2383.964,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員的提案說明,我們現在請邱志偉,邱志偉,邱志偉委員,他不在現場。好,那我們現在就請國家發展委員會高仙貴副主委就委員提案的版本來進行報告,高副主委請。"},{"start":2392.101,"end":2414.729,"text":"主席、各位委員、親近、大家好。我想首先還是感謝各位委員對我們國延攬及僱用外籍專業人才議題的重視。接下來本會僅針對邱志偉委員、郭育晴委員、羅美玲委員、邱映穎委員、莊瑞雄委員、還有王定宇委員所提的外國專業人才延攬及僱用草案,說明如下。"},{"start":2416.269,"end":2433.244,"text":"那我想為了強化這個台灣國際人才的那個延攬其實我們在107年2月8號就開始實施了本法那以專法的形式呢一次鬆綁了外國專業人才來台的相關的法規的限制那我想這個法呢從"},{"start":2435.546,"end":2459.172,"text":"實施以來到今年的三月底,其實外國專業人才的有效許可證已經達到56,427人次,較106年底的本法實施前的3927人次增加了八成。外國特定專業人才累計也許可也達到14,000多人次,然後就業金卡也發行了9,664個。"},{"start":2461.733,"end":2476.687,"text":"那以下就各委員版本的意見那我們做一個整體的研析那我想綜合各委員所提的案我們第一個就是修正條文的第十二條那這十二條是由邱志偉委員"},{"start":2477.748,"end":2498.925,"text":"提案的那主要就是配合入出國移民法在112年6月28號修正所以就刪除了這一條的第三款跟第五款的規定那我想我們配合他修訂我們同意委員支持委員的提案那我們將這個條次完全回歸到入出國"},{"start":2500.307,"end":2524.756,"text":"及移民法來辦理。所以我們同意他可以刪除。另外第二個是第十四條的修正。那第十四條修正主要是縮短橋外申的申請永居的連續居留期限一到二年。那基本上有兩位委員的版本,一個是羅美玲委員的版本,一個是邱義營委員的版本。"},{"start":2526.337,"end":2546.76,"text":"提案。我想我們就簡單的說明一下我們針對兩位委員本會的一些看法跟委員參考。第一個就是有關於在外國特定專業人才在申請永居的折抵部分。跟大家報告其實現行的辦法是只要連續"},{"start":2547.921,"end":2577.337,"text":"居留滿三年就可以申請永居。那在臺灣取得博士學位可以折抵一年。然後換言之就是說最快兩年其實就可以取得永居。那我們本會認為其實為了強化高階人才的流台我們有參著日本新設的特別高度人才制度那這個制度它允許具有碩士學位以上的或者是有高階智能而且有一定收入者"},{"start":2577.717,"end":2598.478,"text":"最快可以一年拿到永居,所以我們會支持外國特定專業人才取得我博士學位的從現行的折抵一年可以提升到折抵兩年,那碩士的學位就可以折抵一年,這個是之前辦法沒有的。"},{"start":2600.336,"end":2611.216,"text":"那第二個是有關於外國專業人才申請永居折抵的部分那現行的辦法是五年可以得到永居博士兩年、碩士一年那"},{"start":2614.603,"end":2643.193,"text":"讓委員有了提案是希望副學士也可以折抵的那我們的看法是我們認為說申請永居的連線的折抵應該考量喬艾森留台對我國的經濟跟產業的貢獻應該不單以在台修讀的期間長短做依據而且各個學士學位的等級的專業程度有差別所以我們希望博士、碩士、學士應該給予由高到低的不同的折抵連線所以我們建議"},{"start":2644.053,"end":2669.999,"text":"博士可不可以折抵兩年。那我們原來說是折抵一年,我們增加一個學士學位也可以折抵一年。那第三個呢是王定宇委員增訂了第21條之一希望放寬取得永居且在我國累計居留十年的外國專業人才及眷屬可以適用我國身心障礙還有一個長照服務。那當然"},{"start":2673.134,"end":2695.575,"text":"因為這個提案涉及到主管機關衛福部的社會福利政策跟服務的提供那本會會尊重該部的一些意見那當然我們如果基本上這個條文如果不會增加太多的財務負擔的話我想我們本會也熱觀啟程以上報告"},{"start":2701.923,"end":2729.003,"text":"好,謝謝高副主委的報告那有關教育部衛福部的書面以及內政部的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那本日議程討論事項合併詢答委員質詢前原理做以下幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間聯席會委員4分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非聯席會委員4分鐘我們上午10點鐘截止發言登記"},{"start":2730.808,"end":2742.977,"text":"首先我們請登記第一位陳婷菲委員發言來請高副主委"},{"start":2753.223,"end":2770.823,"text":"委員長副主委早副主委我想請教一下你剛剛所講就是說在我們如果在學位的這個放寬當中你們現在有一個方向跟目標就是說博士學位可以放寬兩年"},{"start":2772.325,"end":2794.893,"text":"作事一年嗎?這是現在的?是,就是特定的專業人才。對,就是特定的專業人才。就是說被你們認定是專業人才的部分,然後在特殊領域當中,他如果在博士可以折抵兩年,作事是一年,這是現有的?應該是說現有的博士是"},{"start":2795.573,"end":2820.955,"text":"一年,然後會增加一年。對,對。然後我們現在的提案是博士從一年一加一,然後碩士可以一年。碩士一年維持,碩士是維持一年還是碩士沒有?沒有。原來線型是沒有的。原來線型是沒有。因為最重要的就是因為我們外國高級專業人才已經把它五年縮短成三年。對。所以我們當初的線型辦法就是讓他博士可以折頂一年,也就是最快就可以兩年。"},{"start":2822.137,"end":2840.616,"text":"現在委員的提案是希望我們博士可以從一年增加到兩年那也就是最快,如果你是博士學位最快一年就可以取得那這個會跟日本的高級的專業人才的年限相當所以我們是支持委員的提案"},{"start":2841.457,"end":2859.304,"text":"所以說在目前這個部分就是說在博士的部分一加一是OK碩士增加然後學士學位也增加學士學位我們不贊成在外國特定專業人才是在外國專業人才就是我們這個法裡面有分兩個"},{"start":2860.865,"end":2879.177,"text":"人才的等級一個是外國特定專業人才就是必須要符合我們各部會所定的外國專業人才的一些相關的條件我們才會設定他那外國專業人才就是基本上就是根據救福法裡面比如說你要大學畢業加兩年工作經驗47971的相關的規定進來的人我們叫做外國專業人才"},{"start":2884.08,"end":2896.408,"text":"至於外國專業人才的這一部分其實我們是以前學士這一部分是沒有折抵的這是委員有提案希望學士也可以折抵一年"},{"start":2897.09,"end":2900.292,"text":"這是誘因啦!因為這個誘因很重要。也就是說當我們對於他的這個領域、這個區塊,我們認為我們是需要他的,當然我們用這樣的一個延攬人才的吸引力,這本來就應該去協助的。"},{"start":2922.626,"end":2946.476,"text":"對,所以在這個部分其實我覺得我們應該要開大門走大路因為如果說在整個專業領域區塊我們是沒有問題的那我覺得我們應該要更大的放寬放寬的這個幅度讓人家有感否則現在全世界都在搶人才是的"},{"start":2947.455,"end":2968.869,"text":"你認為我們臺灣可以搶過贏人家嗎?我想我們臺灣還是有我們的優勢啦齁比如說其實我們第一個就是我們臺灣其實我們的產業的供應鏈尤其是在半導體這個構面其實蠻強的齁那我們其他的產業也有它的特殊技術然後最好最重要是我們臺灣有很好的"},{"start":2969.469,"end":2971.591,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":2986.866,"end":3002.135,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":3011,"end":3037.103,"text":"關我們自己、台灣、其實傳統產業跟我們的高科技不要再說半導體啦其實在人才其實在內部就已經是搶得非常的嚴重了都不要是說跟全世界去徵才那你認為我們現在在針對所有這些外國專業人才延攬還有僱用的方式"},{"start":3037.824,"end":3067.824,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3068.284,"end":3095.393,"text":"其實當時候108年還好,那時候動了這樣的一個所謂的開端。否則其實已經這個所謂外國專業人才的延攬的部分其實談很久。當時候其實談很久,但是就是卡關。因為有很多思考的層面,那好不容易突破了。可是突破之後呢,到現在幾年了?"},{"start":3096.753,"end":3098.696,"text":"三、本院委員邱志偉等"},{"start":3113.997,"end":3139.593,"text":"大家就是認為應該要修其實我也有一個版本在這個立法院在院會裡面還沒送進來因為我本來說我們新的新的這個國發會之後一個整盤所以我們希望的是當委員認為應該要去調整的時候不是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳而是你們應該在這6年還沒修的當中怎麼整盤整盤一次"},{"start":3142.074,"end":3142.874,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":3167.786,"end":3192.934,"text":"那時候其實光破那個口大家很努力耶破了那個口之後大家期待可是說真的現在整個競爭的演變跟競爭的速度不是我們能夠想像的我想謝謝委員的提醒啊那我們的確我們今年有全盤修法的規劃那因為這個法案還涉及到很多相關的部署我們希望今年底應該可以完成"},{"start":3193.714,"end":3216.249,"text":"我覺得這個部分應該要有一個方向,我覺得要更快啦,因為現在委員都有提出來了,提出來之後把它併著去好好的討論,從全面的,從所謂的他們的學位,然後再從像這個他的眷屬的部分,如果你眷屬可以讓他更安心。"},{"start":3217.383,"end":3220.804,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":3241.733,"end":3242.293,"text":"有請副主委來請高副主委"},{"start":3273.305,"end":3280.189,"text":"委員長本期針對高階人才流失嚴重我們的國際攬財政策的講話來跟您做個討論這幾個討論的方向我們政府是怎麼消極被動而導致高階專業人才的流失以及第二個是我們外籍移工的現況那以及現在國際上對於本國在世界人才競爭力的評比又是如何那重點在我們攬財"},{"start":3301.801,"end":3311.565,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":3324.091,"end":3331.316,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":3347.866,"end":3371.171,"text":"報道上在今年4月28號這個洛杉磯管理學院去提到新加坡的排名是世界第二、亞洲第一台灣是逐年下降我們下降到了整個整體是20名當然它有一個細緻的一個排名等一下我會提出來那在我們台灣過去15年是所謂人才淨輸出的國家"},{"start":3372.051,"end":3393.037,"text":"我們自己培養的理工跟金融優秀人才大量為美國、中國、新加坡、歐洲等國際企業所挖掘。除了攬財之外,留財的部分,我們對於留在台灣繼續的可能性,雖不刻意阻止,但是積極度也呈現的是較低的。好,我們來看我們今天為什麼要去"},{"start":3394.938,"end":3420.2,"text":"提這個修法背景還是因為我們人才的淨輸出理由有二第一個低薪第二個是移工政策低薪的部分就以新加坡為例全國員工薪資平均值是15.6的平均值台幣而台灣呢平均是5.8當然這個數字一定是不能為台灣所有大部分國人所接受但是本席就把它當作是你們的一個基礎的數字平均的"},{"start":3420.76,"end":3439.62,"text":"新資指來看。好,就算我以物價指數的平減在台灣員工收入的平均購買力能不到新加坡的一半。在移工政策的部分為什麼導致我們成為人口淨輸出呢?新加坡引進外籍人力的目的重點是這個,副主委。"},{"start":3440.771,"end":3456.769,"text":"新加坡幫事引進是做新加坡他引進的是新加坡自己不能做的事的人才來引進臺灣引進外籍人力是引進臺灣不喜歡或不願意做的事差別就在這邊決定了兩國後續的國際競爭力的以及他的發展空間"},{"start":3461.414,"end":3480.331,"text":"好,我們再來講到,既然因為有淨輸出,所以我的懶財,我們來檢視關鍵的因素,我就當然這因素很多,我如何吸引人的關鍵因素很多,我就以關鍵的減稅優惠。新加坡課外國專業人才的稅率市場高彈性低稅率,而台灣的減稅是相對苛刻的。"},{"start":3482.853,"end":3501.747,"text":"所以需同時符合好多條件等下我也提出來什麼叫做好多條件才可以享有優惠好我們再看看鄰近國家怎麼樣的積極韓國跟日本在東北亞這個積極引進外國頂尖人才是繼新加坡之後所以大家都看著新加坡"},{"start":3502.708,"end":3525.791,"text":"好那沒關係這又是另外一個議題齁好記得新加坡之後他們針對他哪些人才半導體人工智慧等尖端人才為了彌補韓國日本這幾個人才這幾個領域當中他們少子化以及產業競爭力的理工人才他們大幅改變的留學跟移民政策就是在留才跟攬才的部分他相關的政策規劃跟法規的鬆綁"},{"start":3527.412,"end":3544.22,"text":"好,我們看我們外籍的移工,我們本國是直接把所有的外籍移工的一刀切分為白領跟藍領。好,我們就這兩張圖,這全部都是官方數據。如果在藍領的部分,不好意思我用藍領這兩個字,不好意思,那我就依你們這個勞動部所提供的。"},{"start":3548.206,"end":3573.886,"text":"我們在去年年底的時候我們移工的總人事是突破75萬人分別在製造業47萬8萬人到社福業23萬4千人最多而營建業及農業的漲幅是最明顯的還我們看下圖這個是近三年來外國特定專業人才也就是所謂的白領階級的申請跟聘僱人數我們直接看下圖"},{"start":3575.339,"end":3598.653,"text":"欸對不起齁你看下面這張圖喔他是在累計喔110、111到112也就到去年年底的累計我的白領階級的累計在科技人才我才累計26個人允許這個這個允許他進來然後呢經濟領域我們在累計到去年年底才4028人在金融的領域齁是200"},{"start":3602.956,"end":3608.42,"text":"二百九十六人。這個凸顯是說我國的白領階級人才濟濟嗎?好,我也沒有答案。好,那這個呢這個呢我們就以這一張圖我們就從這張圖來看我們真的叫做人才濟濟嗎?如果是這樣為什麼我們在世界人口競爭的評比卻是倒退入位?好,以新加坡總人口數在去年年底是五百九十二萬人它相當一個北"},{"start":3632.576,"end":3641.502,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":3662.775,"end":3678.353,"text":"當然他在課稅上就沒有太多的條件了課徵的稅率也比台灣優惠所以呢今天國發會是人力資源發展既然是人力資源發展你就必須協調啦所以對我國你看下面這張圖"},{"start":3679.878,"end":3683.779,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、"},{"start":3706.785,"end":3726.147,"text":"而在這個投資跟發展人才我們排名23所以這個是人才以及人才的準備度我們是排名19其實是不高的那就呼應到底我們的是不是白領階級人才階級而導致我們不需要去延攬國際講白一點就是獵人才"},{"start":3727.128,"end":3753.296,"text":"好我們再看課稅制度這是關鍵我們現在的做法是兩個法例外國特定專業人才結免所得稅第三條跟外國專業人才延攬及僱用法就是今天討論的法條外國特定專業人才結免所得稅的辦法是講資格因工作而首次你必須第一次來到本國的這個這個專業人才你來了第二次我過了五年之後來了第二次"},{"start":3754.298,"end":3775.574,"text":"沒有了好那你這個課稅呢必須要怎麼樣呢我必須住滿365天幾乎到一半以上185天連續五年這五年當中我課稅課百分之三十我第五年期之後我必須薪資所得三百萬假設我薪資所得四百五十萬我就四百五十萬扣掉三百萬之後一百五十萬的一半"},{"start":3776.654,"end":3797.871,"text":"七十五萬才能免計綜合所得稅。好,我們來看新加坡他在一年內的受僱有分60年以下60天60天以下60天到182天183天一年喔60天你一年來你在60天工作以下的我是免短期薪資所得扣稅的60天到182天是適用15%的稅率"},{"start":3801.954,"end":3822.367,"text":"半年以上、一百八十三年以上是總收入百分之十五或淨收入百分之二十二,這邊是重點特例。如果外籍工作者擔任公司董事的話,一律採用稅率百分之二十二。如果在我們本國,如果沒有符合那個外國專業人才延攬啊,這個以這現況來講,他的稅率百分之四十或四十五。"},{"start":3823.248,"end":3835.479,"text":"好 我們就以今天的修法體育專業人才為例本席是肯定的所以是不是以這個為案例你們針對高階專業人才引進的相關修法或延領優惠來提升我國的產業競爭力既然你都可以為了體育專業人才來做這樣放寬表示我們有這樣的一個氣度了"},{"start":3846.809,"end":3853.759,"text":"好我直接就做建議在本國人口推估的基礎上這個很重要我相信副主委您是資深的這個公務人員你對於你們本身有這個網站你們很清楚所以在這個基礎上針對白領階級的外國專業人才"},{"start":3864.513,"end":3871.76,"text":"請國發會比照新加坡的攬財政策大幅度的放寬資格,那特別針對投資者、專業經紀人跟專業技術人員他的課稅、居留等攬財,提升國家的經濟這個產業的競爭,在三個月內提出具體執行方案,才能符合本內閣的這個行動創新AI的內閣的期許。這個副主委您怎麼看?"},{"start":3887.276,"end":3913.035,"text":"那個副主委您是不是就...那就三個月內提出來吧!好!好!好!謝謝!三個月內!好!謝謝!我們還是要請各位委員能夠精準地掌握一下時間好!好!謝謝!你不用提案說明就直接詢打了現在不用提案說明了不用啦!不用啦!因為大家時間很寶貴因為今天登記的人很多好!來請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":3918.52,"end":3941.948,"text":"我體驗還是要簡單的說明一下。已經過了體驗說明的時間了啦。你就直接詢答啦。我再多給你兩分鐘好不好。好啦,那個。好啦,來那個。就直接開始吧。這個針對今天三個條文的修正,先請國發會,請勞動部,請衛福部。好,來。請國發會,請勞動部,請衛福部。"},{"start":3947.85,"end":3973.355,"text":"其實我的修法是配合《露出國移民法》在112年的修正所以修正之後我們在原來的第十二條它的第三項到第五項就沒有必要重複在存在所以我的修法就是把第三項到第五項把它拿掉取消那回歸到這個《露出國移民法》相關規定"},{"start":3974.695,"end":3999.867,"text":"國安會應該同意吧?是,完全同意。好,謝謝。另外有關於羅委員的提案,針對有學士學位或者副學士學位取得的技術人員資格,如果這個修法的話,我請教一下勞動部,會增加多少有效約聘的許可人次?"},{"start":4001.195,"end":4003.256,"text":"有沒有估計一下?"},{"start":4003.256,"end":4014.645,"text":"勞動部。是,這個部分我們目前應該沒有相關的推估。如果放寬到副學士,那你會增加多少?"},{"start":4014.645,"end":4023.491,"text":"那誘因夠不夠?不,你我時間保固,你的立場怎麼樣?副學士人數是不是很多?對啦,那如果學士呢?"},{"start":4025.014,"end":4051.896,"text":"學士的話目前全國一年畢業生大概27萬人不是啦我是說外國的嘛喬外生一年的畢業生是1.2萬人左右所以對於羅委員的提案你支不支持原則上支持還有原則還有原則就有例外好原則上支持那我問一下那個馬傑計畫來問一問所以如果按照王定宇委員提案"},{"start":4054.485,"end":4057.393,"text":"你們認為會增加預算支出我覺得這個誘因啊"},{"start":4059.44,"end":4086.783,"text":"是很必要。你要外國要留財攬財,這個誘因一定要存在。國安委應該也支持。那你站在財務支出,由你們的本位思考。如果財務支出不會造成這個,你們這個國家財政負擔,我覺得應該要支持的。所以這部分,你能比較,如果修法通過之後,跟你把這個所謂馬街計畫把它放寬,哪一個會比較好?我希望你們做出一個評估報告。"},{"start":4087.958,"end":4113.595,"text":"是。是。那你覺得馬街計畫如果調整,要怎麼調整?因為報告委員目前因為馬街計畫他是要在台永居20年,然後每年183天。而且他條件門檻很高。對,還要有特殊貢獻。所以符合馬街計畫,取得這個,就剩大概多少人?目前340人有取得馬街計畫。門檻太高嘛。"},{"start":4114.44,"end":4128.232,"text":"所以跟現在的外國人才的誘因是沒有辦法銜接上,對不對?你誘因要增加,這些外國的專業人才還願意來台灣嘛,包括本人、配偶、子女,如果有相關的醫療服務的話,他們誘因會很強。"},{"start":4131.635,"end":4149.762,"text":"所以你如果說你們覺得修法會影響你們財政支出那你們必須要把這個馬捷計畫做相關的調整是不是一個月之內把修法或者是馬捷計畫做調整門檻降低的利率評估做一個分析"},{"start":4150.925,"end":4167.236,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":4179.912,"end":4187.796,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":4206.286,"end":4224.695,"text":"我們後續可以進行相關的評估啦。後續不是,立即啟動評估,好不好?立即啟動評估。好,我們會評估。我地點都幫你找好了。你在橋頭科學園區啊,那有很多以後會設一些行政中心,那邊就可以設一個Tenant Taiwan的高雄據點。"},{"start":4226.198,"end":4253.301,"text":"對,因為我們特任的臺灣還有涉及相關經費的編列等等的,那就像委員說的,我們將來臺灣也是...對,我知道,我知道,臺灣真的也是很多半導體S狼帶等等。所以這部分國際人才的諮詢服務很重要。怎麼樣全球人才你要跨部位的資源,所以這個...是不是容許委員讓我們做一下評估在...三個月之內。"},{"start":4254.562,"end":4255.562,"text":"三、本院委員邱志偉等"},{"start":4277.884,"end":4303.663,"text":"立刻評估,一個月之內把北高雄地點評估出來。為什麼?因為這個執聘中心這個移工的需求,這個移工流財的都是不管我那邊有傳統產業金屬構建,或者是這個高科技產業都缺工,都需要很多的這個移工。所以怎麼樣執聘中心在設立是非常重要的。所以"},{"start":4305.204,"end":4316.999,"text":"這個我弟弟也幫你找好了,這個也在喬科,或者未來是產業科學園區,北高雄產業園區,或者是喬州科學園區,你可以在兩個地方找一個,我還有兩分鐘。"},{"start":4320.045,"end":4343.251,"text":"這兩個地點都是在北高雄。所以這個立即啟動執聘中心的這個設置計畫。一個月之內是不是提出相關的評估?委員我們一個月之內提出在南部這邊設置執聘中心的可行性的評估。我就跟你講,已經就講好了。南北失衡。那重點我就告訴你為什麼要設在北高雄。我已經講清楚了。"},{"start":4344.312,"end":4367.822,"text":"我們在南部這邊的評估一個月之內提供給委員。謝謝。南部的高雄那救護法救護法這個移工的政策目標跟方向這個也是你們管的是這個部分這個你看日本以前這個對這個外籍移工是非常保守"},{"start":4368.729,"end":4398.189,"text":"現在他們考慮到未來少子化、高齡化的這個人力需求。他們這個觀念大轉彎,然後突破過去思維。現在你包括在那邊地超商,包括他們的女書業,都是這個外國的移工,不管是在留學的或者是聘用的移工。所以因為欠缺人的移工勞動力太多了。我們的少子化、高齡化不會輸給日本的。"},{"start":4399.21,"end":4410.945,"text":"所以你應該要大開大合,要有更創新的思維,不要太保守。所以這部分,你的救法移工政策目標你要做一些調整。"},{"start":4412.749,"end":4438.091,"text":"這個你的想法怎麼樣?這個淑敏跟委員報告因為現在人口結構確實有一些改變那所以我們對於移工政策也開始朝向參考日本對於實習生以及中階的一個人力的引進做一些彈性上的調整所以台灣在過去這兩年也針對中階人力有一些鬆綁跟擴充的一個情形這個部分我們跟日本的做法是接近的所以你那個30年前所設定的移工的這個目標是暫時性補充性"},{"start":4439.392,"end":4459.907,"text":"你用管制、限制的做法來制定這個辦法對不對你現在已經顯示說這個移工已經成為必要的人力日本就是考慮到這個日本就是有這種思維所以你整個政策思維、政策目標你要調整如果是必要的人力你就應該要有不同的思維、不同的做法去拼顧"},{"start":4461.044,"end":4482.606,"text":"所以這個部分你這個移工的政策目標跟方向是什麼時候可以調整?這個部分我們其實在實務上已經針對包括那個可以禁用移工的僱主的資格業表的部分已經做一些原則上的一些方向跟調整這個部分會持續來做滾動檢討基本上它是配合產業的一個發展的一個需求不是滾動整個上位的政策目標跟方向你要做調整"},{"start":4483.444,"end":4503.962,"text":"那你覺得你現在是一共是必要人力還是補充人力?這個部分我們橫著產業的需求不再去特別去強調它是補充性的人力你把這個部分做一個全盤的盤點我希望說你要把這個缺工的問題視為是國安的問題你缺工百工百業都沒有辦法去"},{"start":4504.889,"end":4506.771,"text":"二、本院委員邱志偉等二、本院委員邱志偉等二、本院委員邱志偉"},{"start":4539.031,"end":4558.379,"text":"105年我們啟動了能源轉型我們以減煤、蒸汽、非核、展綠來作為方向這是我們再生能源發展的路徑以及策略尤其在今年520的時候總統就職大典他特別提出第一項會推動產業升級"},{"start":4562.446,"end":4582.716,"text":"然後第二上臺積極打擊黑金、槍、毒積極推動第二次能源轉型發展多元綠化智慧電網、強化電力系統的韌性在這樣的一個情況之下我們更明定了114年再生能源裝置的容量11萬瓦29伽馬"},{"start":4586.058,"end":4599.21,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第10屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱用法第12屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及僱"},{"start":4613.422,"end":4626.953,"text":"不斷跳票,所以在內政府新任政府上任之後推動的第二次能源轉型到底是什麼內容?非核家園會不會重新檢討?請教副主委。"},{"start":4629.315,"end":4650.924,"text":"第二次的人員轉型的重心就是要發展多元的綠能。除了剛剛委員講到的我們的離岸風電跟太陽光電,我們會預造我們在十二項關鍵戰略裡面我既定的目標,我們一定會確定達成。你既定的目標到目前為止照你的KPI都達不到。所以本席剛剛說的跳電。"},{"start":4651.744,"end":4655.405,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":4681.81,"end":4692.159,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":4707.513,"end":4726.201,"text":"主委國發會來到這裡不是告訴我們21號怎麼樣應該會怎樣我們是要聽到你今天是代表國發會我們的政策方向是什麼就再跟那個委員補充我剛才講到請教是否會與時俱進調整輝和家園的想法會不會討論"},{"start":4731.244,"end":4740.779,"text":"我想我們會不會討論應該是說如果在尋求全民共識的情況之下會在核電的這個議題上面"},{"start":4744.015,"end":4766.308,"text":"會有一些……大家都有共識之下,然後會有一些決定。我只能這樣說。副主委,你這樣子我們詢答才有意義。也就是目前大家期待在看,到底政府對於能源政策怎麼樣去做調整。非核家園是不是拿出來重新討論。這個就是一個民主風範。"},{"start":4767.449,"end":4789.946,"text":"包括了童子賢先生包括了林博鋒理事長他們都提出他們的論點那麼同時也包括了郭部長在為擔任部長的時候前幾天他也表示河南是乾淨的能源這是第一個第二個他認為必須要拿出來做討論而且他的基準點在於多數人"},{"start":4791.087,"end":4809.132,"text":"多數人的共識而執行之,跟您現在所說的是雷同。所以我非常的歡喜聽到這一點,我們也希望要好好的用心,因為這一個能源政策對於整個國家的脈動是非常非常的重要。好,所以你們要好好討論喔,來接下來"},{"start":4810.592,"end":4825.882,"text":"其實委員我要強調一下就是我為什麼要提21號的院長的施政報告因為其實以我的層級來說我沒有辦法代替行政院就所謂的因為有人叫你代替行政院主席你這個時間要扣掉就以你國外會的立場誰叫你代替行政院"},{"start":4833.784,"end":4845.733,"text":"難怪昨天國會午晚要好好的討論對不對怎麼會有這種思維你今天是代表國發會我已經強調過你代表國發會講你國發會的立場對不對那你還要不要代表行政院好啦不要去"},{"start":4858.976,"end":4866.76,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":4884.568,"end":4908.429,"text":"部分的媽媽也因為家庭而暫時離開職場但是他離開之後要再回來的確有困難所以這個我也不斷的跟勞動部一直在討論因為今天你是國防會所以我因為你是handle 橫向聯繫所以本期要請教男女身間不平等的感受比例很高有52.6%的懷孕者認為他受到不公平的待遇"},{"start":4908.809,"end":4932.878,"text":"五十一點八結婚以及需要育兒的他也覺得是不公平的五十一點四特定價在檯面下限很多所以容易被刁難重點四請問主委我們在性別平等法第十九條裡頭規定為了扶育未滿三歲的子女可以申請每天減少一小時無薪資的工時但是我們發覺達到93.7%沒有申請"},{"start":4937,"end":4963.898,"text":"政府有福利為什麼不申請?那這個其中原因到底在哪裡?因為有48.1%他不知道這個政策。不知道喔!等於快一半喔!那國防會你是不是應該要好好的宣導?針對於打善友善職場、促進性別平等、提高生育率都是國防會的主委。為什麼我們政策下去是這麼的低落?因為時間的關係我把功課給你。"},{"start":4966.8,"end":4967.091,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":4967.833,"end":4996.236,"text":"要怎麼樣去改善?詳實的順便介紹給本席,我們再繼續討論。最後一個議題本席要請教我們創生推動是我們國安會跟各部會去研討60億我們看到到目前為止我們總共累計補助106案那換句話說只有6案5%有建立出產業的模式"},{"start":4997.233,"end":5018.295,"text":"有了政府的支柱民眾努力在推動我們在地方上每一個區我們結盟我們的創新團體大家一起努力來推動但是為什麼你的比例這麼低這什麼原因那麼我們努力的在立法院通過的60億的預算要地方創新創生3.0"},{"start":5020.757,"end":5049.547,"text":"那但是我們的比例產出的比例這麼低你認為這樣子的一個數字你滿意嗎?副主委我想我們當然應該是要就是我們編好的預算我們一定要全力執行啦對那這個這樣的數字我想我會回去了解一下它的執行的狀況因為這不是我主管的比例落差太大你的橫向組織一定要去管控好不好那你也把你橫向"},{"start":5050.407,"end":5076.623,"text":"是探討出低落的原因產出的原因第一什麼原因怎麼樣改善請順便資料給本席好嗎好沒問題對好謝謝楊先生委員接下來我們請萬美玲委員發言好謝謝主席我們有請高副主委來請高副主委"},{"start":5083.628,"end":5096.522,"text":"議員好,副主委好。副主委,少子化的問題是近年來我們非常急需要改進的一個國安問題。我想蔡政府在107年的7月推出少子化對策,總經費高達4851億,"},{"start":5101.827,"end":5128.023,"text":"但是六年過去了我想我們的生育率很明顯是沒有任何的改善而且繼續去往超高齡化國家來邁進那根據內政部統計我國截至今年四月份已經連續四十個月生不如死死亡比出生要多而且扶養比不斷的增加那使得我們現在的年輕人可以說是壓力越來越大那當然就不敢生嘛那不敢生現在變成惡性循環所以現在少子化的問題"},{"start":5128.203,"end":5132.905,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":5156.676,"end":5177.372,"text":"所以這個數字是創有統計以來最低而且我們看到去年的12月外國的一個媒體就是這個經濟學人的雜誌指出全球生育率倒數五名的排名台灣的生育率在全球最後就全球倒數第一我想副主委是不是能夠提一下我們有沒有去檢討過少子化對策"},{"start":5179.193,"end":5191.883,"text":"我想那個潮池華對策在院裡面有之前有林萬億政委其實定期滾動的調整那我們現在的這些少子女化的那個預算其實已經超過已經到達1200多億元了那用在減輕年輕人的那個養育生育的負擔"},{"start":5198.869,"end":5225.929,"text":"然後創造一個剛剛比較良好的一個生育職場的環節那個副主委我不是在問你這個政策是什麼我是在問你說你有沒有去檢討過這個對策因為看起來成效不彰啊對就是一直滾動在調整每年幾乎都有新的措施出來啦那當然就是出生率降低我想可能也不只是台灣的問題像新加坡、韓國其實也都相當的嚴重那個副主委啊"},{"start":5226.369,"end":5239.746,"text":"我想今天我不是要跟你討論別的國家嗎?當然知道這是一個全球化的狀態,但是台灣可以變成是全球倒數第一,難道不需要檢討嗎?因為雖然這麼多時間過了這麼久,但政策完全沒有達到效果,這不需要檢討嗎?"},{"start":5241.909,"end":5267.206,"text":"我接受您說的這個滾動式檢討那我希望你會後能不能給我一份比較具體的你到底檢討出了什麼個所以然來好嗎因為今天時間也有限但是我們看到這個根據審計部111年的決算報告當中有指出來我們國人低生育的原因大概就是不婚跟晚婚但是本席發現這個審計部還有說到這不婚跟晚婚是沒有明確的主責機關的我想這個副主委請教一下"},{"start":5271.008,"end":5278.92,"text":"這沒有明確的主責機關,國法會可以來主責嗎?因為不婚的原因非常的多元"},{"start":5280.643,"end":5308.917,"text":"好,那不婚的目前是內政部在主責,婚姻,就是結婚姻,就是……所以您認為這個就是選計部指出的這個不婚跟晚婚啊,這個沒有一個明確的主責機關,但國防會副主委您認為應該主責機關是內政部是這樣嗎?是,就是因為少子女化這個對策是林萬玉委員在做整體的規劃,那裡面有關於不婚這一塊是內政部在負責。"},{"start":5309.417,"end":5337.183,"text":"目前的主責者。我想內政部當然也一定有他的責任在但是呢我認為啊國發會不會也沒有他的責任的啦您自己也應該非常了解根據這個國發會組織法第二條第一項第六款您可以看一下喔您自己非常清楚您執掌的是這個人力資源發展政策裡面也有寫到因應少子化等等本來就是國發會的業務項目項目嘛所以你也不可能完全去推給內政部啊當然當然所以我想"},{"start":5337.563,"end":5357.829,"text":"如果說在這個主責單位上面不管是您這個有負責少子化或者是相關的人口政策其實在國發會都有那今天副主委的回答如果全部推給內政部本身是不能接受的應該不是完全推給內政部就是說因為我們在那個計畫裡面有部會的分工那我們國發會也會參加這個會議那我們在會議當中我們也會基於國發會職責我們會提供一些相關的建議給各部會這樣子"},{"start":5366.472,"end":5388.944,"text":"副主席,我想我們為什麼本期提到這個少子化,因為就是少子化現在國安問題非常嚴重,那我們人口呈現負成長,勞動力一直在下滑,那所以今天我們也來討論嘛,就是外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第九條來做這樣的一個討論,我想我們來提一看一個政策,這個就業金卡,那就業金卡在107年2月8號上路到現在也是差不多6年的時間了,"},{"start":5389.924,"end":5394.045,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":5417.787,"end":5425.694,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":5441.246,"end":5459.759,"text":"八千七百九十二人而一般外國專業人員來臺五萬六千一百七十人六年來我們只有吸引到了六萬四千九百六十二萬人那我想我們再加上教育部海外新型專班這個教育部有這樣的一個專案嘛預估一百一十六年"},{"start":5460.439,"end":5465.023,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定"},{"start":5477.532,"end":5504.731,"text":"能不能簡單說明一下我們這個40萬人包括剛才那個委員講到特定專業人才、專業人才、僱外生另外還有一個我們就是那個移工就是那個中間的技術人力所以我們這是四個加起來我們希望達到40萬人那的確這個目標是相當具有挑戰性可是我想我們國防會協同其他的部會我們會全力達成比如說僱外生這一塊我們都非常的積極的"},{"start":5507.993,"end":5518.298,"text":"既然相當具有挑戰性,國發會自己組織,教育部也有專案,我想其他的部會應該也還有一些計畫,我覺得要再加強了。最後一點,國發會在111年所做的調查來看,其實有16.7%的吃咖者已經不在台灣工作,而且準備申請永久居留才佔比30%。"},{"start":5530.083,"end":5545.161,"text":"那所以副主委我想我們這個就業金卡我們去發這個的終極目的不是就是希望他能夠有意願留在台灣來為台灣來貢獻所長喔那但到最後竟然只有三成的人願意留下來那這出了什麼問題啊基本上齁這些"},{"start":5545.962,"end":5560.6,"text":"所謂的那個特定專業人才他們都是國際移動性非常高的他們是全球跑來跑去的所以呢他比如說有一些卸股的台灣網他們有時候就是他不見得會留在台灣因為他們要到世界各國去尋找部署委我想喔"},{"start":5562.302,"end":5562.562,"text":"接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言"},{"start":5594.383,"end":5622.445,"text":"好 謝謝主席請高副主委高副主委是委員長今天我們處理的是外國專業人才延攬及僱用法是那剛剛我看到了前面的委員這個楊秋英委員其實對你的一些答覆有段時間其實並不是很滿意的那你會擔心這樣的答覆狀況不滿意的狀況像未來如果藐視國會法通過了之後會不會影響到"},{"start":5623.584,"end":5626.501,"text":"你的答詢你會不會擔心觸犯到所謂的藐視國會法?"},{"start":5629.431,"end":5635.456,"text":"你會擔心?會不會擔心?說實話,會不會擔心?包括有可能司長、處長甚至科長都可能被叫上來被詢問到,那你聽不聽到他們感到擔心?"},{"start":5659.912,"end":5679.788,"text":"如果國會的多數就是認為你藐視國會,在法律的條文界定裡面認為只要你有藐視國會的行為的話,他們認定的就是藐視國會,三年以下有期徒刑。我想就我們公務員來說,我們會希望這個法會定的更明確,而不是讓公務員...所以高副主委誠實的回答,會不會擔心?"},{"start":5680.669,"end":5694.84,"text":"如果照這樣的話會不會擔心同仁們有擔憂?同仁會不會擔憂你認為?同仁會不會有點擔憂?我想我我我如果以日我來說我可能如果這個法通過的時候我們可能會跟同仁有某個對這個法的進一步的認識"},{"start":5696.121,"end":5720.002,"text":"那避免就是因為你長期在公務體系裡面應該知道啦這樣子因為到立法院來立委嗎為什麼問題其實沒有人知道他不像美國的聽證會還有一個很確定的範圍今天如果美國聽證會談外國專業人才你來談就談這個但是你看剛剛談到了核電去了問到了核電去了那你核電出來的回答你第一個回答他滿意第二個回答他不滿意之後他就有可能認為你並沒有他就不滿意所以剛剛"},{"start":5720.743,"end":5744.122,"text":"我的意思是說在這樣狀況下的話再回來談好了外國專業人才僱用法我們要邀請更多外國優秀人才來到台灣的時候而將來在這樣的一個立法院可以要求他來的時候如果他沒有來或者是沒有照實來提供有可能罰一萬以上十萬以下的罰還甚至連續罰對於延攬外國專業人才這樣子會不會產生另外一種負面的壓力會不會"},{"start":5746.069,"end":5770.142,"text":"報告委員麻煩再說一次我現在有點失神就是說如果這個藐視國會法通過了啦齁通過以後的話外國專業人才要來到台灣的時候齁他有可能在被立法院要求要來做說明或來調查的時候沒有的時候或者是有相關可能被處以一萬以上十萬以下的罰環而且連續罰這樣會不會影響到外國人來到台灣的一個意願會不會"},{"start":5772.065,"end":5772.526,"text":"議員王定宇等"},{"start":5787.025,"end":5810.421,"text":"我們看香港的狀況嘛,香港整個是做了一些限縮之後,其實不只外資討嘛,連外很多人員也都離開了嘛,因為他限制。當國會用這麼強的一個強度去約束人民,我要求你要來做一些說明跟調查的時候,如果你不來或者什麼的話,我會給你罰還。官員是有可能被犯三零下徒刑,但是這個人員的話是會被罰還,而且連續罰,罰到你來為止。這個會不會產生壓力嗎?你認為不會產生壓力嗎?"},{"start":5817.445,"end":5818.006,"text":"所以我說的說是"},{"start":5836.696,"end":5861.466,"text":"如果我們希望延攬更多優秀的人才甚至希望更多優秀的公務人員不斷在政府內服務的時候我們在立這些相關的法必須非常謹慎小心如果你沒有很謹慎小心的話你會讓人才視你為衛徒你這個政府或者是你這個國會是一個具有高度壓力的國會更何況還有很多不見得看得到的一些手的時候這個都會影響到台灣的整個長遠的發展副主委同不同意這樣的看法"},{"start":5862.046,"end":5862.467,"text":"國發會或世衛服務的評估是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5881.449,"end":5899.884,"text":"我想因為這個法令涉及到那個社會那個福利跟服務的提供會有大概多少如果假如照王定宇委員通過的話會有多少的預算要支付的我想衛福部有估算那我們國防會的立場是如果在"},{"start":5900.704,"end":5914.108,"text":"政府就是說社會福利沒有財務的危機還有這個服務提供沒有問題之下呢我們是樂觀其成可是呢至於那衛福部說明一下好嗎對我們尊重衛福部的意見來衛福部說明一下是委員好那其實在針對攬財外國專業人才的這個部分其實衛福部是保持我們希望能夠吸引更多的專業人才然後跟多元包容跟廣納的這個態度"},{"start":5929.563,"end":5950.368,"text":"來去從這個方向來去做考量那不過因為目前就是這些外國專業人才他的眷屬或者是他的子女的部分如果說他是屬於身心障礙的這個部分的人數目前還沒有辦法做一個精準的掌握所以這部分後續我們可能還需要再推估出來大概會有多少的預算需要如果假如照這樣通過要增加多少預算"},{"start":5950.708,"end":5951.669,"text":"那這個案子有跟部長做過說明嗎?新上任部長。"},{"start":5965.76,"end":5969.422,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":5991.955,"end":6017.229,"text":"來為我們一起來努力讓台灣的經濟、讓台灣的產業更好這是大家共同的目標但是有些涉及到財務面的問題的話也必須要審慎來思考好謝謝最後一個問題齊金的類離島其實我跟高副主委也談過非常多次齊金當時的時候其實他是半島但是是因為高雄港開港之後形成離島但事實上因為他有過港隧道關係所以他永遠沒辦法享受到離島建設條例的優惠"},{"start":6018.55,"end":6044.46,"text":"但是我是建議應該因為他交通上還是相對的是比較困擾的我認為其實應該有一些類離島的方式給他做避免產生他不需要去跟吃到其他的離島的一些預算但是他可以因為一些政策面上給他給當地的居民有更好發展機會他也是你們地方創生的輔導機構所以我希望副主委你們現在整體的規劃方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":6045.374,"end":6045.895,"text":"委員羅美玲等"},{"start":6063.097,"end":6064.9,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":6079.82,"end":6106.202,"text":"我覺得這應該是大家可接受的方向他不視為離島視為類離島的方式他不吃到你的離島建設條例的資源等等但是在有些東西給予一些特殊的範框或讓當地的人才能夠回流讓當地的居民有更好的一個發展我覺得這是做得到的一個月內給我一份報告好不好一個月內給委員具體的回應謝謝賴瑞龍委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":6109.838,"end":6125.109,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請副主委。副主委好。"},{"start":6139.127,"end":6166.557,"text":"按照你剛才的答詢你絕對不會有這個藐視國會因為這個本來立法院之前刑事法本來就有規定不能反質詢不能反質詢也不能稀微的那個答覆不能稀微的答覆所以這個尤其是國務院都不會了都不會不要擔心"},{"start":6167.898,"end":6191.561,"text":"然後會發生這種事情大概是極少數了以我在三、四年的公務員的經驗然後這個世界的立法委員的話應該是這種極少數的才會發生這種事情的不用擔心好這個今天的議題外國專業人才延攬及僱用法"},{"start":6194.305,"end":6208.67,"text":"根據內政部的報告,到110年10月25日修正施行《外國專業人才延攬及僱用法》。外國專業人才申請永久居留案件共1969人。勞動部"},{"start":6214.445,"end":6236.675,"text":"你取消僱外生評點制的配額然後擴大禁用僱外生這些相關的這些到113年已經提高至7000人這是這個人數一直在成長那個國發會你的報告這個節制"},{"start":6242.318,"end":6268.175,"text":"今年三月抵止外國專業人才有效席可五萬六千四百二十七人。這個部分所以我要建議的是說怎麼樣因為這些專業人才是不是跟我們台灣我們台灣的教育也非常棒"},{"start":6269.837,"end":6297.259,"text":"我們現在台灣的這個年輕人就學我們的學校然後這個所培養的這些也有很多的專業人才是不是這個如果我們這一方面的專業人才不足某個企業某些企業然後怎麼樣去跟教育部或是跟相關的學校大學怎麼樣去促進"},{"start":6299.088,"end":6319.624,"text":"因為畢竟還是要以本國的人才為優先。所以這個部分是一個需要去審慎的去評估、去因應。以今天的這些提案,副主委,你認為"},{"start":6322.286,"end":6349.802,"text":"我想就像委員所說的啦當然就是因為我們現在每個國家都跟台灣一樣發生人才短缺人力短缺的問題那我們當然希望是培養本土的優秀人才優先啦所以大家可以看到就是不管是我們的高教啊或者是我們有這個那個就有一些特別條例啊半導體學院等等都是在全力培養國內的一些"},{"start":6350.602,"end":6372.591,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等六、本院委員王定宇等七、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院"},{"start":6380.779,"end":6400.51,"text":"大量的吸引國外的學生來台灣就讀。就讀完了以後,他既然用了我們的資源,也熟悉我們的語言跟文化,他就可以留下來。目前這個制度其實已經放寬到副學士以上都可以申請,而且績效其實還蠻不錯,現在畢業的學士生幾乎有一半會留在台灣,來補充我們需要的專業人力。"},{"start":6408.715,"end":6427.543,"text":"我的建議是說剛才按照我剛才的陳述你也認同嗎?所以我們台灣的這些專業人才的培育跟我們企業的需求共同的去推動如果人有不足"},{"start":6428.303,"end":6456.675,"text":"當然才去考量這些所以一定要去做這樣的一個審慎的評估當然剛才你也提到了副主委你也提到臺灣的少子女化很嚴重這個也算是整體來看也是我們國發會應該要去跟相關的部會甚至行政院我們對少子女化的因應到底"},{"start":6457.873,"end":6481.995,"text":"主不主,不只是這樣啊。我們這個很多的這個也切工也沒錯,但是怎麼樣去再因應這些不能一直一直引進外,包括就能都一樣啊。我看到我們的就能現在職業性的職業意義就能都不足啊。"},{"start":6482.756,"end":6483.737,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇"},{"start":6504.789,"end":6524.208,"text":"這些不是專業人才一般的營造移工開放的非常非常的多這個有這樣的一個數字而且影響當然是我們原住民基層的勞工所以這個部分因為當然這個不是你的業務但是應該是整體去考量"},{"start":6525.459,"end":6547.307,"text":"對,各位委員報告,其實有關於移工,如果是個別行業是屬於專案性的引進,那就如所說在進行專案性引進的時候,勞動部其實都會評估到會不會影響到國內的就業,然後當然也會評估到如果我不引進,我可能影響到整體的經濟成長,那經濟成長往下"},{"start":6548.847,"end":6560.433,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":6575.163,"end":6580.407,"text":"主席宣告,待會本席質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘。好,那我們請李玉琳委員發言。"},{"start":6606.429,"end":6629.578,"text":"謝謝主席,請邱副主委來,請邱副主委委員長副主委本席在這邊想先就教你請問說國發會在主責業務當中哪一項是刻不容緩在關乎我們國家的未來跟經濟前景是當務之急必須要有對策先來解決的"},{"start":6631.361,"end":6651.479,"text":"我覺得就我們國發會的執掌而且橫著現在國內的就是台灣的經濟發展狀況裡面我覺得產業跟能力兩個應該是最重要的是產業跟能力跟產業跟這個經濟各方面都是很重要但是最重要根本的"},{"start":6652.119,"end":6674.631,"text":"就是邱志華本席必須再從邱志華先來跟你說因為我們看到我們現在整個臺灣的生育率在2023年是全世界倒數第一這個就關乎在我們整個影響到的方面是多方面多元的尤其是在教育方面在私立學校的招生不足的情況之下就會有倒閉的"},{"start":6675.191,"end":6678.794,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":6697.409,"end":6712.065,"text":"所以我們在健保跟勞保的收入減少情況之下整個虧損的漏洞就會越來越大那尤其是在國防方面青壯年人口的減少也會增加這個義務與跟我們自願意的招收非常的困難影響我們整個軍隊的運作還有戰備的準備所以諸位"},{"start":6716.65,"end":6731.547,"text":"在這個少子化的情形整個社會都歸咎的是因為高房價還有我們的這個高物價跟這個整個高工時還有這個薪水低還有育兒成本這個提高的問題所以這些問題都是環環相扣的"},{"start":6735.612,"end":6741.055,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":6764.489,"end":6788.681,"text":"一千兩百九十二億元,那這邊主要在用在就是減輕年輕人的育兒的負擔這個構面,那你剛才其實也有提到高房價、低薪還有一些相關的課題也是影響,也許是你這邊預算你根本沒有辦法解決根本的問題,就是所以我們持續在滾動"},{"start":6789.98,"end":6798.224,"text":"二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、"},{"start":6815.114,"end":6823.297,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":6829.11,"end":6830.432,"text":"二、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":6847.09,"end":6851.032,"text":"一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、本院委員羅美玲等一、"},{"start":6869.5,"end":6890.675,"text":"那最重要的就是要放寬僱生可以在畢業之後可以申請永久的這個居留的資格但是我們看到國發會在2018年就開始在推動著讓外國人士可以申請工作許可、居留簽證還有外僑居留證跟從入國的許可、四合一的就業金卡"},{"start":6891.977,"end":6902.243,"text":"副主委就位金卡你們執行的6年執行的成績是如何?你現在只有6年的時間你只有發放9664張那你還喊出來說2030年你要延攬7萬名的國際專業人士你有這個信心嗎?你做得到嗎?"},{"start":6910.788,"end":6937.789,"text":"好,那跟委員報告說我們設定的七萬的國際專業人才是包括特專跟一般專業人才那目前呢大概就是就業金卡是屬於特專那一塊那我目前的國際專業人才大概是一萬四千專業人才一萬四千人含就業金卡含就業金卡那你的七萬人就業金卡實施這麼久了是沒有功效嗎?很困難嗎?"},{"start":6940.816,"end":6966.418,"text":"你這已經放寬了我剛才提到就業金卡裡面就有四項合一的就是給你們去延攬進來都有在規範裡面但是你們還是沒有辦法因為我們就是一萬四千的特定專業人才裡面我們是因為我們有設定減稅等相關的規定所以我們設定的是我現在跟你講就業金卡部分這也是延攬人才啊對不對所以你的七萬人你做得到嗎"},{"start":6967.319,"end":6967.941,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":6974.298,"end":6980.402,"text":"我們有信心可以達到2030年要達到所以本席在這邊也要請副主委還是對問題的根本你們就應該要跨部會去統籌來做合作的機制讓我們整個目標要更加的明確來增加生育率的問題讓我們國人能夠有生養的問題的意願更願意生養"},{"start":7001.954,"end":7004.836,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員大家好。想請副主委來請高副主委"},{"start":7033.683,"end":7049.157,"text":"委員早副主委你好本席是婦產科醫師也是博運政醫師所以剛剛許多委員所提到的少子化的問題相信也是國發會今年會統計而且分析的重點項目是嗎"},{"start":7051.403,"end":7055.844,"text":"在去年的報告國發會告訴我們說重點的產業中缺人原因超過四分之一佔比主要原因這邊我們看到說不管對於這個"},{"start":7077.048,"end":7080.031,"text":"行政院在99年10月13號的院會依據《產業創新條例》第17條指定國發會是專責機關負責建立協調整合機制並且推動產業人才的資源發展相關事宜強化產業所需人才提升競爭力"},{"start":7097.325,"end":7118.668,"text":"具體的責任就包括針對最近最新未來產業人才供需進行調查跟推估這份報告也非常多人在看媒體也會討論那根據前一個年度的辦理成果來發布所謂的重點產業人才欠缺主要原因包括會診這個經濟部啦、交通部、數位部"},{"start":7119.629,"end":7137.485,"text":"農委會、金管會六大部門十九項重點產業人才調查跟推估來綜合分析欠缺人才的主要原因。我想請教一下我們固定會在每年的五月發布這份內容。如今我們還看不到針對2023年盤點過後的報告內容。請問這個報告到底什麼時候國人才看得到?"},{"start":7143.79,"end":7153.093,"text":"現在走行政流程很快就會公布了已經完成了對是那我們來看一下這是2022年所以是2023年的檢討報告我們至少會看出來說這19項重點的產業呢特別需要人才供需產業已經有10項是超過50%的廠商都在反映說人才不足我們看左半塊"},{"start":7170.498,"end":7198.519,"text":"左半塊許許多多是我們現在的創新產業比如說光電、AI、智慧機械、精準健康都是重點的國家發展項目這些都有50%的廠商反應欠缺人才最左邊兩項觀光還有IC更是高達88%的廠商反應欠缺人才還有我們來看右半邊像是紡織、旅宿"},{"start":7199.039,"end":7212.215,"text":"都各別有超過四成的廠商反應欠缺,還有投信投顧證券也有超過三成。副主委可不可以講一下我們即將分析公布的2023年的報告,跟這個2022年會有什麼差異,或是有什麼產業的變化嗎?"},{"start":7220.074,"end":7245.142,"text":"對,那跟委員報告,我這邊沒有詳細的這個,可是我聽我們同仁說,其實業別有一些差異,可是的確他看起來…那缺工的問題是更嚴重嗎?對,就是說…是更加嚴重?應該是差不多吧,差不多就是人才不足的這些…產業別有些差異,可是情況應該大概類似。好,我們看下一張。"},{"start":7248.216,"end":7262.764,"text":"這個重點產業缺人的原因你們自己分析的原因超過四分之一佔比是因為人才的供給數量不足另外像是流動率過高、素質不符、薪資不具誘因等等等等"},{"start":7263.484,"end":7279.575,"text":"我想請問您過去馬政府曾經在2015年設置了行政院人口及人才政策匯報再到蔡政府上台後的2017年當時林全院長也利用原有的資源來設置這樣子的匯報請問現在這個匯報還在嗎?"},{"start":7283.615,"end":7309.694,"text":"基本上我們現在人才及移民政策的我們是用首長會議就是基本上首長會議那次有我們在國發會有我們之前的拱組委是拱民署長來主持那參與的部會包括經濟部、勞動部、教育部、內政部等等僱委會等相關的部會所以是由您來提供報告跟數據應該是說會定期"},{"start":7313.237,"end":7318.538,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":7344.219,"end":7361.69,"text":"這個剛剛非常非常多的委員關切過我們行政院在2018年通過了五年期的我國小子女化對策計畫支持國發會讓國發會可以管理考核衛福部、教育部來更秤薪後來到了2021年決定再把這個專案延長到2024年"},{"start":7366.465,"end":7385.36,"text":"我想請問副主委您覺得我們過去2024年以前你們的這樣少子女化的對策有具體的做出一些幫助嗎?就是目前那個少子女化對策因為涉及的部會非常的多所以現在其實是之前的林萬一以前曾委員在"},{"start":7386.181,"end":7409.832,"text":"在主持的那基本上這個計畫到2024年到期的時候我想應該還就是這個計畫持續在滾動調整然後如果屆期的話也一定會有新的計畫來做所以我們2024年以後會有2025年的我國小子女化對策計畫會有2.0版本是嗎是會用什麼樣的名稱我不曉得可是絕對會持續的推動好"},{"start":7411.753,"end":7435.895,"text":"那我們也很期待看你們有看到怎麼樣因應對策,謝謝是,是,謝謝請邱盈盈稍微質詢好,謝謝主席,我是不是請一下高副主委請高副主委"},{"start":7442.469,"end":7458.105,"text":"副主委早副主委早副主委我想就直接請教您這個我們國發會的計畫目標要在6年之內留下19萬的僱外生用來填補國內有超過一半的人力短缺"},{"start":7458.866,"end":7459.947,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三人擬具"},{"start":7488.746,"end":7505.08,"text":"一半、才六千多人而已。而且現在看起來的國籍是馬來西亞籍畢業的僱外生留台工作是持續增加,人數已經超越了日本達到了首位。"},{"start":7507.261,"end":7529.955,"text":"這個我還是要進一步請教副主委您們怎麼看就像我們今天提到的這個我們今天的修法內容雖然本席的這個提案的法案因為程序的關係還來不及併案審查但是您剛在答詢的時候也針對我的提案其實應該這個也是國發會未來修法的這樣的一個重點"},{"start":7530.936,"end":7545.303,"text":"那您覺得,就我剛剛提出的這個問題,跟未來我們如果照這樣子的一個修法通過,您覺得這樣的誘因足夠嗎?足夠讓您在很快的時間內能夠達標來填補這樣一個人力短缺嗎?來,副主委。"},{"start":7550.253,"end":7551.514,"text":"一、本院委員羅美玲等"},{"start":7566.626,"end":7591.681,"text":"這個人數其實就非常的重要那教育部其實他們有一些既定的規劃甚至他們染柴甚至到要到東南亞去直接的設點去把僱外生引進回來那就我們來說我們在設定這樣的目標的時候其實我們有責成教育部要有每年他希望他們達成僱外生來台就學的人數"},{"start":7592.762,"end":7618.896,"text":"好,那我們透過這樣子的管控,因為基本上如果你來這邊念書的時候,第一個你用了我們的這個教育的資源,第二個你也熟悉我們的文化,熟悉我們的一些風俗,所以基本上,如果以台灣的環境來說,他們留在台灣的意願,其實剛才...所以副主,您講的這個部分是有來念書的,你覺得可以適度的來補充,我剛剛提到的這一塊。"},{"start":7620.037,"end":7631.274,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":7635.831,"end":7664.127,"text":"但是相關的法令規定其實是有一些嚴苛剛剛國發會講的是利用僱外生那現在如果在企業界裡面我現在提到你們這個就業福法裡面就講了嘛你規定要設立未滿一年的公司實收資本額要達到五百萬以上營業額要達到一千萬以上那根據這個稅籍的登記台灣的資本額在五百萬以上的企業只有佔百分之十八"},{"start":7670.143,"end":7682.018,"text":"我們現在對於留學生的就業的政策比較,台灣跟日本相對是嚴格的。香港、加拿大、法國、德國相對是比較寬鬆,他們有什麼特別特殊的要求?"},{"start":7683.22,"end":7700.995,"text":"那我們呢還算是在最嚴格的這一端比如說你要規定公司的資本額要500萬以上營業額要達1000萬以上當然我知道問過你們你們說因為很怕那種人頭公司去設立假公司然後去專門聘用外國人"},{"start":7701.656,"end":7729.574,"text":"那這個考量也是對問題是對於很多正常設立的企業他根本不知道他如何甚至他能不能很快速的來聘用這一些外國人或者是僱外生對企業的聘用來講那個流程他們完全不清楚不瞭解甚至我們現在講很多的外國的自由的藝術工作者"},{"start":7730.214,"end":7742.132,"text":"他其實是沒有特定僱主的。那就我們現在的相關的法令的規範,其實他們要留在台灣是不容易的啊。勞動部你們怎麼看?"},{"start":7744.494,"end":7773.416,"text":"是,那謝謝委員的指教有關僱外生的協助留在臺灣工作的部分目前我們短期內是朝向先把我們每年的各一個合配的這個評點制的這個原額的部分再做擴充甚至也配合相關部會的期望去把這個評點制裡面的項目再做一些放寬點數再做一些增加來鼓勵他們有機會能夠符合相關的規定至於僱主的部分剛剛委員也提到了我們主要的顧慮其實在於說這些僱主他僱用僱外生的時候會不會有一些"},{"start":7774.577,"end":7791.752,"text":"對於喬艾森的工作權益有一些影響跟擔心,這個疑慮要排除。所以目前呢,大部分如果是製造業的話都不會有問題。這部分其實他們在這個僱主資本額的限制上,其實如果是屬於六大核心產業或者是相關新創創新事業,那部分都可以排除了。"},{"start":7792.092,"end":7809.797,"text":"主要是在服務業的部分尤其是像批發零售或者是這些這個餐飲等等那這個部分我們雖然目前仍然維持有相關的這個營業的限制但是我們可以用個案的方式去做跨部會的會商個案的方式申請是不是會程序更繁瑣個案其實是更繁瑣嘛所以你對企業來講他根本不要去個案申請啊"},{"start":7815.078,"end":7840.695,"text":"我們主要還是說那個流程會走很久嘛主要第一個向各個企業這邊去做宣導這個教育部跟我們都持續在進行第二個這裡面的會商的程序有沒有可以再精簡的地方這個部分我們再來跟部會做一些其實我是覺得這樣啦勞動部當然的立場一定是要保護本國勞工但是你們沒有去考量各個不同的企業對於各個不同國籍人士的專業人士的需求"},{"start":7841.696,"end":7847.96,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":7859.127,"end":7881.508,"text":"一、本國勞工的立場上你其實要站在企業上如何協助企業能夠有更多的人才如何協助國家能夠有更多的人才留在台灣共同努力這個角度上去思考的話我覺得你們很多的法規都是其實都是應該要再重新考量重新檢討的好不好謝謝委員提醒這部分我們要注意他的橫平性謝謝"},{"start":7892.366,"end":7893.267,"text":"好,我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":7931.244,"end":7952.022,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":7954.034,"end":7965.619,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":7973.138,"end":7996.125,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":8003.267,"end":8027.33,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等六、本院委員王定宇等七、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等九、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院"},{"start":8029.525,"end":8049.173,"text":"所以你們要另外再去頂一頂。我們這裡,你們法門寫65歲,對不對?我們原本的法門寫65歲才能領取,對不對?所以就是他現在只是說,他只要他失了,所以你們可能自己要請修正案,因為說王委員,因為那時候我們提給他,我都給你們看過了,你們有沒有了?"},{"start":8058.201,"end":8074.381,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":8075.828,"end":8097.125,"text":"一、本院委員羅美玲等二、本院委員羅美玲等三、本院委員羅美玲等四、本院委員羅美玲等五、本院委員羅美玲等六、本院委員羅美玲等七、本院委員羅美玲等八、本院委員羅美玲等八、本院委員羅美玲等九、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院委員羅美玲等十、本院"},{"start":8098.305,"end":8122.742,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":8130.421,"end":8149.427,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等六、本院委員王定宇等七、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員"},{"start":8151.147,"end":8172.494,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等六、本院委員王定宇等七、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員"},{"start":8173.294,"end":8188.573,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等六、本院委員王定宇等七、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院委員王定宇等八、本院"},{"start":8189.253,"end":8209.466,"text":"對呀,然後有一些就是他可能關於一切的問題啊,是不是,比較比較仔細尊敬學問啊,就特意轉移他的材料啊,有的就說他只是翻他的材料,他就自己轉移就可以了,讓他留下一個就是可以花一點時間在談話,或者是一直可以一直維護一個人在談話,就這樣子,類似,類似像這樣。"},{"start":8214.601,"end":8237.614,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":8244.295,"end":8261.829,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,請各位同仁盡速就座,好嗎?好,接下來我們請葛如君委員發言。欸,這邊,這邊,您走錯了。不好意思,因為你比較少來經濟委員會。"},{"start":8271.476,"end":8277.619,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請國發會副主委以及教育部代表備詢,謝謝。"},{"start":8290.96,"end":8315.297,"text":"謝謝今天有這樣的一個機會來跟副主委請教關於AI人才需求的議題原因是近來國際之間的頻傳因為AI人才短缺未來還會更缺所以各國都爭相挖角AI人才這樣的一個新聞到處都是美國聯邦政府甚至宣布要在內部開始增加AI人員的配置今年夏天以前要招募100名相關的人才據悉"},{"start":8316.638,"end":8339.397,"text":"幾本年薪超過459萬臺幣：Elon Musk很多人也都發表過我們就不多說那請教一下副主委如何看待國際的目前這些現象我們AI的人才有沒有在關注有或沒有跟委員報告我想AI是一個第四次的產業革命那其實每個國家都把"},{"start":8340.956,"end":8350.58,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":8364.093,"end":8382.108,"text":"的系裡面我們也開設一些跨領域的那第二個是產學公寓大家知道半導體學院等等的還有區域產學人才培訓中心那第三個就是我們也希望企業自己培養他自己需要的人才大概有這三個面向我想機會很難得我就讓你全部講完沒關係這個非常這個相對的完整"},{"start":8386.511,"end":8404.001,"text":"但我們現在這個AI內閣相信對AI人才應該要更多的了解我們國會會的調查我們現在的缺口很大而且還會持續擴大大概有3000人然後我們的這個接下來還會在缺口會持續的在擴大持續的成長人工智慧應用的服務的新增需求人數超過5000人"},{"start":8405.632,"end":8429.285,"text":"再來我們又發現有非常非常多的困難這是經濟部工業局的調查這不是我們亂填的招募困難難難難上加難那我們其實已經看到紐約時報3月份的報導提到AI人才最大的生產國中國已經佔一半了美國也只有18%我們台灣一定要來做得好否則的話我們到時候又來討論什麼AI人才到底從哪裡來的問題"},{"start":8430.746,"end":8456.025,"text":"那我想從產業端裡面我們都應該要來多了解那您剛剛提到的這些問題我們有問CHAT GPT-4最新的版本其實確實您剛剛提到的點大概都有在裡面我想接下來希望我們可以人機一起協作加上我們在這個中央、部會還有我們的立院一起來努力那我想接下來的這種AI的人才在這個教育的體系裡面也應該要持續的培養"},{"start":8457.006,"end":8464.516,"text":"有沒有知道請教一下這個廖司長我們教育體系每年大概可以培養出多少AI人才知道嗎?時間可以暫停嗎?"},{"start":8476.745,"end":8499.457,"text":"1905位一年1905位我們連自己到底有多少AI人才我們自己都不知道這是非常危險的這個未來我們這個擔心的地方人才越來越多我們引進的也不夠自己生產的也不夠人才還外流這真的是非常危險我們看一下這個微軟一直說很重要特斯拉也說很重要大家全世界都說很重要"},{"start":8500.117,"end":8527.26,"text":"我們國科會推動海外人才歸國橋接方案,四年來花了四億,只有97人留下來。然後我們國發會合法的就業金卡科技類去年一整年值網路到372人,你沒有聽錯,300不是3000,實在令人非常的憂心。請教一下能不能國發會協同教育部、國科會、數位部等相關部會建立跨部會的AI人力資源現況調查機制以及多久可以完成這個調查?"},{"start":8528.922,"end":8548.522,"text":"基本上我們都有持續就那個產業人才的缺口進行調查那AI人才應該也是會在我們的調查裡面那我們事後可以提供給委員我們現在這個調查在走行政流程那一旦公布的時候我們就給委員資料希望三個月內將調查結果公布給本席辦公室"},{"start":8548.882,"end":8550.143,"text":"以正職員工聘請某位來台灣就讀大學的外國留學生,是他已經畢業了嗎?"},{"start":8578.578,"end":8600.536,"text":"外國留學生正要畢業正要畢業那應該是要取得學位的好很好我們來看一下這個依據就業服務法第五十條第一款僱主聘任就讀於大專院校的外國留學生工作時間除了寒暑假之外每星期的總之就是無法用正職方式聘任如果用實習的方式合作呢這個業主就這樣我就這個來了解嘛"},{"start":8601.076,"end":8623.014,"text":"他說,中共工作的能力是正職的專業程度,為什麼只能用實習來聘任呢?這對學生不太公平。但受限於法規,這些學生就先以實習的方式參與工作了。那我又再進一步問,也問您,如果這個學生畢業以後能不能用正職來聘任,您覺得畢業以後的聘任可行嗎?"},{"start":8627.456,"end":8647.223,"text":"根據《外國人從事就業服務法》第40條第一項第一款至第六款工作資格及審查標準第五條第二款規定取得國內外大學相關系所之碩士以上學位者或取得系所之學士學位而有兩年以上工作經驗者也就是說這位同學即使在這個公司實習兩年實習兩年經驗並不能認為工作資格"},{"start":8651.545,"end":8673.391,"text":"所以結果就是這個學生畢業以後被這個公司預裁了兩年以後結果即使有留在臺灣工作的意願最後還是一定要離開臺灣啦齁你覺得這樣合理嗎當然不合理所以我們現在有一個橋外生評點制度你可以用橋外生評點制度留在臺灣不需要適用救福法第46條第一項第一款的規定"},{"start":8673.911,"end":8701.143,"text":"那這個評點制度推行了多久?已經十年了那人數呢?去年多少人用?一萬多人全部都可以解決剛剛這個問題嗎?你們要搞清楚喔!我們的陳情是說無法解決喔!那如果是這樣我非常高興不然呢我們國會改革法通過就有它的目的喔沒有關係我們相信你們是真的喔那也希望到時候我們也會在臉書上面在社群上面分享是陳情"},{"start":8701.863,"end":8729.429,"text":"大家不要誤會了,我們有非常好的郵財機制。結論,本席理解勞動政策有非常多的地方要考量,但是真的希望可以讓來台灣就讀大學或研究所、完整學制的學生,真的要有多一點的就業彈性。另外你們也提到有這個鬆綁、相關的計畫,也希望一併考量進去。希望都可以帶回去市場看看,未來有什麼樣的AI人才可以持續來培育,有一些外國來台灣就學的我們希望可以留下來。"},{"start":8730.389,"end":8757.829,"text":"讓臺灣的人才、技技成為下一個世代競爭力的高峰。謝謝。是,謝謝。好,謝謝葛如君委員。接下來請謝依鳳委員發言。我們中午就不休息,直到發言結束為止。好,謝謝主席。我想要請我們副主委。來,請高副主委。"},{"start":8763.652,"end":8782.466,"text":"其實剛才有委員問到我們看到其實現在世界的趨勢生成是AI的市場規模其實是越來越大所以我們在希望說台灣也可以在這一塊發展的時候"},{"start":8783.487,"end":8803.312,"text":"如果目前我看到的是從我們產發署的資料來說每年都需要最保守都是3600以上的人力缺口那我想請問的如果我們有這樣子的需求的時候那在教育部門"},{"start":8805.928,"end":8807.751,"text":"教育部門或其他研修課程部門有沒有辦法提供我們所需的人才?"},{"start":8821.108,"end":8846.992,"text":"議員報告一下就是說其實我們過去幾年來我們只知道因為數位轉型也不只是現在AI才發生所以我們在高校這邊我們是全力擴充STAND系所的招生名額跟教學能量那的確有一個具體的數字然後我們同時也鼓勵非資訊科系的系所開跨領域的數位科技為學程"},{"start":8847.432,"end":8851.214,"text":"二、本院委員邱志偉等二、本院委員邱志偉等二、本院委員邱志偉等"},{"start":8870.524,"end":8872.566,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":8886.161,"end":8914.441,"text":"那另外一個就是我們今天的攬財我們也希望從國外去積極延攬海外的人才來台灣那比如說金創台灣裡面有很多的很多的經費就是希望把國外的新創尤其是AI的這一塊的人才延攬到台灣來那甚至在東歐也設立了一個攬財的據點所以其實政府事實上是多管齊下但是多管齊下到底有沒有效果"},{"start":8914.901,"end":8930.016,"text":"就從過去的這樣子的一段期間以來那到底效果是如何以及如果效果不彰的時候我們要怎麼樣子改變我們的策略那今天的修法是不是就可以符合我們這樣子的需求對"},{"start":8931.558,"end":8937.582,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":8957.298,"end":8965.445,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":8980.054,"end":8984.735,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":8998.539,"end":9024.926,"text":"因為基本上我們現在是我們對於其實在在學的這些僑外生是有一些實習的規範當然我們也要顧慮到他工作時日太多的話其實有點像是假就學真實習我們會怕這樣子可是一旦他取得學位以我們現行的規定僑外生評點制度他是百分之一百只如果他有意願是可以絕對可以留在台灣的這樣子"},{"start":9025.995,"end":9049.847,"text":"對 我是說因為這牽涉到要不要就是攬才跟留才的這個部分嘛那我才會想說就是說以實習當然就是說是不是要以實習或者是來讓這些碩博士生以及就是有特殊專業的人士留在台灣那發共同發展那是不是你覺得如果你們評估咧"},{"start":9052.089,"end":9071.708,"text":"當然就是如果還在在學中間實習是很重要的我們會扮演那個他在如果他是一個真正AI的相關的這些我們需要的高級的這些人才我們會媒介我們國內的企業讓他有實習的機會因為他要是認識這些企業他留在"},{"start":9072.389,"end":9078.735,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":9089.324,"end":9097.086,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、"},{"start":9111.189,"end":9126.196,"text":"我想委員提醒我們就在學的這一端我怎麼樣增加他留在台灣以後拿到學會後留在台灣的誘因這一塊那還有他實習的一些便利性我想我們會來檢討"},{"start":9127.116,"end":9128.697,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,謝謝。好,謝謝謝依鳳委員。接下來我們請林一錦委員發言。"},{"start":9157.285,"end":9170.031,"text":"謝主席有請教育部國際司廖高賢代理司長、國發會副主委還有僱委會朝生處的檢任視察和勞動部勞動立法人署的主任秘書陳祖密來委員長"},{"start":9178.632,"end":9203.348,"text":"我想先請教一下這個教育部喔這個上週教委會我在請那個教育部專案報告的時候有提到國際招生跟台灣優華語化的計畫那本席提出華語教學人員待遇的議題那這個提到說國內華語中心的華語教學人員大多是兼任制的那三個月一聘"},{"start":9204.249,"end":9212.071,"text":"一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員邱志偉等一、本院委員"},{"start":9224.414,"end":9229.075,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":9245.86,"end":9272.955,"text":"教育部潘前部長跟我答詢說他會請國際司再來檢視那也會來設法完善這個華語教師的制度以穩定他的師資那我想我們必須認定認識到說有穩定的師資我們才會有這個穩定的這個華語的這個教學那所以請教就現在到底開始著手來檢視這個整個教師的待遇那未來有什麼需要調整改善的計畫沒有"},{"start":9274.538,"end":9299.815,"text":"謝謝委員的提問跟委員說明現在我們華語教室有兩類第一類就像剛才那個委員所提出來的我們國內有65所的華語文中心在教授外籍人士的一些相關華語那這個部分呢我們也有折騰各個學校的華語中心能夠完善他們對於這些華語老師的一些契約聘僱包括剛才提到的勞健保以及相關的一些保障這個已經目前我們在華語計畫裡頭已經有在推動"},{"start":9302.697,"end":9319.194,"text":"那至於說對外輸出華師的部分因為涉及到對國外大學他們的需求薪資的一個條件那我們教育部補助的是他生活費的部分那在去年我們也把整個生活費配合行政院的日資費有所調整以上報告"},{"start":9320.647,"end":9321.488,"text":"第二本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":9342.805,"end":9347.848,"text":"需要競爭40萬其中僱外生就增加20萬名應該要增加20萬名雖然過去僱外生留台統計的數據我們每一年畢業的僱外生雖然有成長但是"},{"start":9361.155,"end":9387.68,"text":"就2019年度的數據來看有一萬人可是最終留在台灣工作的其實大概只有一半上下而已那很多僱生當初選擇來台灣念書除了學費、生活費相對的平易近人以外其實很多人是喜歡台灣的喔那對台灣的文化也非常的熱愛好 那僱生在台灣除了念大學碩士以外其實他如果他還"},{"start":9388.34,"end":9392.903,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":9414.878,"end":9417.421,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":9436.142,"end":9453.487,"text":"資本額五百萬或營業額一千萬以上的企業才能僱用僱生。那很多新創公司跟中小企業他都沒有辦法聘僱那還有就是僱主不願意幫忙辦這些工作許可因為他這個程序非常的繁瑣那還有"},{"start":9455.044,"end":9475.856,"text":"還有就是有些雇主根本不知道怎麼樣幫這些僑外生申請勞動簽證那所以這就是讓這些學生沒有辦法留在台灣那還有很多僑生也不曉得了解所謂的相關的法規那更多當然是受到留台工作這個評點制的限制那我想剛剛"},{"start":9477.358,"end":9491.576,"text":"有委員詢問那也知道說之前僱委會有表示說已經跟勞動部有建議要移除這評點制的門檻那所以我想說要了解現在到底什麼時候可以上路實施"},{"start":9494.359,"end":9518.935,"text":"關於評點制度的名額我們會先朝擴充的方向去做擴充它的額度有人講的不瞭解法規就是說不瞭解相關法規還有評點制度這塊其實教育部、勞動部都會一起去做到學校去做宣導讓這些僱外生瞭解部主的部分不瞭解"},{"start":9522.837,"end":9523.117,"text":"議員王定宇等"},{"start":9552.637,"end":9564.886,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":9578.615,"end":9607.57,"text":"同時製造業如果有很多它的這個包括是屬於六大核心或者是五家相關產業的話也不受這個限制那另外服務業的部分因為它的營業的規模稍微比較小所以這邊就是剛剛我們傅主席所講的它是透過跨部會、個案會商的方式來進行所以這裡面還是有空間可以處理好 謝謝那期待這部分齁大家再加強努力齁OK 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林益錦委員來接下來我們請陳秀寶委員發言"},{"start":9613.987,"end":9618.008,"text":"謝主席先請國防會來請國防會高副主委"},{"start":9626.037,"end":9646.218,"text":"高副主委好面對這個延攬國際人才這個競逐挑戰因為各國都在搶人才那為了使優秀的外來人士規劃我國更友善更便利呢我們也三讀通過了國籍法放寬外國的高級專業人才申請規劃的這個居留年限呢從五年放寬到兩年"},{"start":9647.959,"end":9674.628,"text":"兩年,然後那個條件就是每年需有一百八十三日以上的合法居留事實繼續五年,放寬為繼續兩年或是曾經在我國領域內合法居留繼續五年以上呢就無需有一百八十三日以上合法居留的事實來強化我們臺灣延攬優秀人才的這個誘因喔那今天呢本會也在討論說外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條及二十一條的修正以及增列第二十一條之一的條文草案"},{"start":9675.808,"end":9691.97,"text":"那本席是其實是很支持的就是說以修讀學位拘留期間來抵免應該是可行的那副主委這邊您覺得說外國專業人才以及外國專業特定人才所折抵的標準是不是應該有不一樣您的看法呢"},{"start":9692.31,"end":9716.906,"text":"是,現存的條文就有不一樣。那我們這次的修正主要把折抵的連線根據這兩個類別再行放寬,再行增加。本來就不一樣嘛,所以說放寬的標準也會不一樣。那針對委員的提案說,修讀碩士可折抵一年,學士可折抵兩年,那您的看法呢?針對那個外國特定專業人才我們是同意的。"},{"start":9717.881,"end":9732.411,"text":"因為我外國特定專業人才原來是博士只能折抵一年,碩士不能折抵。那現在委員提案是兩年,博士兩年,碩士一年,我們是同意的。那針對呢專科、副學士也可以折抵一年,這個有沒有科系跟專業的限縮?"},{"start":9734.532,"end":9756.063,"text":"我們一般專業人才裡面現在就是原來現行是博士兩年、碩士一年那委員的提案是希望博士兩年然後學士也納到碩士裡面也可以折抵一年那有另外一個委員的建議是副學士以上還有甚至學士是要按照他的就學年資"},{"start":9757.344,"end":9786.131,"text":"如果是四年就可以折抵兩年那我們比較傾向是用就是博士兩年學士以上就是包含碩士是一年的這個方向來所以您的看法好 了解那這個外國專業人才延攬及僱用法我們在107年的2月實施而且在110年10月有修正我們也進一步的鬆綁對外國專業人士的工作拘留"},{"start":9786.591,"end":9794.555,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":9812.483,"end":9839.137,"text":"這個目標其中包括外國專業人才有7萬那目前我們延攬的外國專業人才有多少?明年你們設定有多少人的目標?那我們外國專業人才是包括特定跟一般專業人才那我們目前的特定專業人才到目前為止已經有到一萬四千人了那專業一般專業人才呢?五萬六好OK"},{"start":9840.297,"end":9844.94,"text":"對,那我們有信心啦,而且我們也有責任,一定要達到這樣的目標。其實這樣的業務,其實故意提供我們這些國際人才的這些,不管是相關的協助,他們來台申辦的程序,這些相關的協助我們都一定要做,因為我們希望說國際的優秀人才能夠進來留得住。"},{"start":9862.272,"end":9882.948,"text":"所以今天才會也針對說委員所提的這個案子我們來討論也希望說以你們的專業能夠在這個整個的這個法規的修訂上在可以的範圍之內盡量提供這一些人才他們更多的誘因那接下來我想請勞動部勞動部是我們勞動力發展署的主秘嗎"},{"start":9891.088,"end":9905.178,"text":"協工一直是產業很關注的議題。少子化也會讓未來缺工的問題更嚴重。本席認為,面對缺工的問題,如果只是想靠嚴禁移工並不能有效地解決問題,如何提供"},{"start":9905.498,"end":9911.364,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":9929.162,"end":9955.392,"text":"是,各位委員報告齁,這個缺工的部分各個行業陸續都有這樣的一個訊息,那所以勞動部這邊第一個對於所有各行各業通通都適用的部分是主要是透過就業媒合來做一些服務,但是像製造業尤其它只是它的一個製造的一個製程或者它的一個時程有比較特別而讓國人投入的意願不是特別高的部分,這個部分我們有所謂的就業獎勵鼓勵勞工朋友包括青年朋友投入這些比較辛苦比較"},{"start":9956.192,"end":9985.587,"text":"比較不大願意去參與的這樣子的一個行業別那有這樣子的一個就業促進的工具來做運用就業獎勵的部分我們的青年朋友都會知道嗎?你們用什麼管道去宣傳?是,那我們目前對於青年的服務的工作第一個是他在校的時候我們就結合學校在他還沒畢業之前就做一些就業準備的一個工作那另外我們本身勞動部也有青年職涯發展中心以及我們各地的就業服務中心這個部分依然可以在他離校之後持續來做這個青年的追蹤跟協助"},{"start":9986.087,"end":10010.953,"text":"在這邊再請教我們台灣跟印度已經簽訂了勞工合作備忘錄是我們台灣回歸23年來新增的一個移工來源國那勞動部這邊何時會公告正式公告印度是新增的移工來源國呢是跟委員報告這個部分第一個我們還是必須先尊重大院這邊對於這一個MLU的內容的一個審議的一個結果才有可能繼續往下推展雙邊的工作的一個層級的會議"},{"start":10012.333,"end":10029.549,"text":"所以這個部分必須先以院裡面的這邊來做後續的處理那另外在雙邊的工作層級的會議當中必須要討論引進的相關的細節包括引進的行業別人數以及相關的作業的方式到底是直聘還是用聘那個仲介雙軌等等這裡面還有很多的討論"},{"start":10029.889,"end":10045.926,"text":"所以很多的細節都還沒有確定喔那我們勞動部間是有規定說需先聘用本國勞工由於而才能聘移工所以本實驗希望說產業不能因為低薪找不到人就要用移工來補必須以合理的薪資為前提"},{"start":10047.347,"end":10050.75,"text":"所以說我也希望說勞動部這邊應該要積極的開發中高齡、高齡、二度就業的婦女在這種潛在的勞動力來因應缺工也讓我們這些失業的人口他們有一個就是跟缺工企業媒合的機會另外再提醒因為印度境內的族群比較複雜光是語言就有二三十種"},{"start":10069.164,"end":10086.357,"text":"以現在我們台灣多數移工沒有母語翻譯的狀況希望勞動部可以先因應就是說未來對如果引進印度移工的這個翻譯的問題要先做好準備是,謝謝委員以上的提醒我們都會注意以上謝謝主席,謝謝好,謝謝陳秀寶委員好,接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":10107.837,"end":10133.063,"text":"來請高副主委副主委你好今天應該算是今天最新的好消息馬國柯林也是很艱困的挑戰因為半導體業的這個發展熱今天最新的新聞公我們產業的用電創了最近兩年半最大的漲幅"},{"start":10135.314,"end":10160.445,"text":"昨月四月份我們的用電比去年的同期成長了6%這是很好的消息表示我們的產業在整個經濟是在往上走的可是看起來用電的挑戰非常非常的大所以我今天要請教你一個問題第一個那這個用電量一直在增加現在電到底夠不夠各位委員報告就是"},{"start":10161.696,"end":10188.929,"text":"充裕穩定的電力絕對是贈本的重中之重。我只能說是AI專家,對不對?他推AI。AI跟這個精密的晶片啊,半導體都是用電,耗電非常大的。我知道各位這個好消息代表了後面挑戰就非常大的,所以我直接問你很清楚的。目前,半導體這個產業啊,精密的這個晶片啊,占我們用電的比例有多高?一百多電裡面有多少電是用在我們的半導體上面?"},{"start":10190.502,"end":10217.14,"text":"這個數字我不是非常清楚啦可是就我所知啦其實每年呢其實經濟部都會有針對我們每年的用電的需求量跟供給量做一個評估那這個也是一個公開的資訊啦我會請教你這個原因是像我自己人啊那台積電就要來加以設廠嘛對不對那個用電就增加我們當然是樂觀形成我們在爭取的拜託在用電方面你要多支持而且國家"},{"start":10218.04,"end":10233.713,"text":"國、你們非常重要,你們國家重要政策發展都是你們在主導嘛,對不對?所以你一方面要這樣用電是無虞的,那一方面我要很清楚,你們說要了解的就是,國發會應該要做一個評估啊,例如說,你們的主委是專家,AI方面可能會用掉多少電?"},{"start":10235.074,"end":10236.835,"text":"三、本院委員邱志偉等三、本院委員邱志偉等"},{"start":10250.976,"end":10264.731,"text":"其他的需要電動化的這兩個現在用電最多啦半導體跟AI它當然也有重疊的地方啦好不好這方面你目前還沒做評估報告嗎我覺得它應該是有做相關因為半導體其實產業在台灣已經很"},{"start":10267.153,"end":10268.794,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":10287.026,"end":10305.863,"text":"現在很多人在幫我們國家的經濟加油樂觀很樂觀的這個狀況之下是有些擔心的是是我想我們現在整體的能源政策跟整個能源的這個結果你看現在再生能源是八年最近這八年來蔡政府非常急急推的那現在政府上來了對我就看了一下去這過去八年再生能源"},{"start":10307.824,"end":10310.185,"text":"三、本院委員邱志偉等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":10331.236,"end":10342.765,"text":"這是不是簡單的數學成長6%結果努力8年只有再生能源要補上去的只有4.8%結果又有3.5%的核能要不見了這麼簡單的數學那怎麼辦電力會不夠啊"},{"start":10346.667,"end":10346.687,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":10369.099,"end":10375.766,"text":"二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":10390.134,"end":10404.589,"text":"就是蔡政府努力,已經那麼努力啦,才成長了4.8%我拿今天的新聞來做對比今年4月份光是產業的用電就增加6%已經追不上去了嘛我今天跟你講都是非常殘酷的事實喔所以7月27號是不是要討論一下河山廠的一號機真的要停嗎?"},{"start":10409.855,"end":10426.902,"text":"包括未來的核電是不是真的要停下來?是,有關於這個議題的話,就是我們之前我們拱前主委或是我們拱命算也有提到,就是我們這個議題就會尋求全民的共識,然後再做後續的一些決定。我另外問一個,您國發會去年剛核准這個643億的經費去打造2030年的電動化公車,結果現在出現兩個問題了。"},{"start":10436.042,"end":10445.367,"text":"現在一年耗電,我可以統計差不多7億、8千3百萬多,現在電到底夠不夠?我們剛剛討論的也是AI的用電、半導體的用電,現在電動車也要用電,一年要7億8千3百萬度,這電到底有夠用嗎?"},{"start":10451.717,"end":10451.817,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":10482.098,"end":10494.169,"text":"現在很多地方連充電廠都沒有怎麼充電。一方面是可能有電沒有車,一方面是有了車可能也有電,連充電廠都沒有啊。你們大部分市首善之都現在充電廠都找不到啊,現在怎麼搞的?"},{"start":10495.297,"end":10519.778,"text":"所以後面會全力的去充製去裝置充電廠我們很理性科學的問政所以你幾個東西請你要注意而且要給我資料好不好第一個剛講的AI跟半導體它未來的一年它可能會增加多少需要多少電你們要一個預估不只評估你要一個調查報告你兩個禮拜給我OK不OK"},{"start":10522.2,"end":10546.196,"text":"應該可以應該可以對不對然後第二個電動車現在很明顯的就是充電廠都沒有你們要趕快去可能要做一個協調好不好我知道台北市政府也很緊張也出來講台中市政府都出來講你們要去幫忙而且要去幫忙怎麼幫忙你兩個禮拜或給我一個報告那個充電廠可不可以一個月一個月因為我們還要洽其他相關的部會好不好謝謝"},{"start":10549.538,"end":10572.415,"text":"好,謝謝張祺凱委員。接下來我們請林月琴委員發言。謝謝主席。那麻煩我們的常肇思的副市長。來,請常肇思副市長。"},{"start":10578.776,"end":10585.44,"text":"副市長,今天事實上是針對於我們的外國專業人才延攬及僱用法的修正草案。"},{"start":10585.913,"end":10609.606,"text":"我想你也知道你為什麼會站在這邊因為今天事實上我們的王委員有一個提案嘛那事實上各國都極盡所能的想要延攬專業的人才進入到他的國家裡面甚至也歡迎專業移民那要做到這個的話事實上政府要拿出更多的友善更有力的政策因為這些人畢竟要來"},{"start":10611.721,"end":10623.587,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、"},{"start":10639.724,"end":10660.697,"text":"今天各委員有針對不同的版本的修正,那各部會也有做出比較好回應。可是針對王定宇委員修正條文衛福部的回應讓我相當驚訝。因為王委員修正的條文精神是希望我們在延攬人才的過程當中重視我們的身障跟長期照顧。"},{"start":10663.59,"end":10685.198,"text":"這個對於我們國外的重要人才能夠長居在台灣的話事實上是非常友善的一個政策可是這個前提是這些人才為我們台灣做出不管是知識上或是勞動經濟上的一個貢獻可是衛福部的回應竟然是說目前已經有所謂的馬街計畫"},{"start":10687.038,"end":10711.247,"text":"計劃內容大致上是保障居住我國20年以上每年居住超過180天及內政部核發外僑永久居住郵政而對我國有特殊與貢獻奉獻年滿65歲以上的外籍人士透過馬街計劃可申請我們的長照服務的給付等那王委員的版本跟馬街計劃並不衝突"},{"start":10714.329,"end":10714.89,"text":"議員們的看法是什麼?是"},{"start":10729.902,"end":10753.27,"text":"委員那這邊衛福部這邊做一個回應其實對於就像委員說的要能夠廣納這些外國的專業人才那我們其實是也是持說希望能夠吸引更多的人才來到台灣然後不管是說就業服務的這個部分所以我們其實是希望能夠朝能夠協助多元跟包容的方向來去廣納吸引這些人才進來"},{"start":10754.31,"end":10779.815,"text":"那只不過是說因為這一些人才目前來說他可能現在都還是屬於在就業的年齡層那後續如果說他的眷屬或者是子女那未來可能需要使用長照服務的這個部分那他都可能還需要再去實際的去精算這樣子的一個失能人數的部分或者是說他可能是身障又失能的這一段那所以我們可能還需要再做一個更嚴謹的"},{"start":10780.435,"end":10807.494,"text":"可是我要提醒的是從兒權公約的精神來講兒權公約第十條也明定父母不應該跟他的子女長期事實上是分離的狀態裡邊那今天一個人才來到台灣他在就業當中他的子女如果今天因為身障而不能進入到台灣因為我們的如果整個的照顧服務體系也沒有辦法表現友善的話更要再回到我們的生權公約角度上來看的話"},{"start":10808.274,"end":10834.464,"text":"是不是可以回去精算一下說到底會產生多少的一個這樣的支出尤其我最近才辦完三場的我們的生權法的修正的公聽會那每一個帳別有不同的需求那我們也期待在我們要延攬人才的時候可能要去考慮到我們的生權公約跟兒權公約提及的這些相關的觀念"},{"start":10835.166,"end":10862.824,"text":"來保障來臺灣貢獻的這些人能夠帶著他的配偶跟子女來到臺灣然後也是同樣能夠獲得我們一樣同等的照顧那也麻煩你們是不是可以把這個精算出來的一些數據能夠提供出來是那這部分我們後續再做一個評估以後呢兩週可以嗎可以一個月左右的時間嗎是不是可以"},{"start":10863.343,"end":10888.59,"text":"請委員讓我們比較詳細的去精算一下這部分的一個那麻煩謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林月琴委員接下來請侯孟楷委員發言主席謝謝請國發會高副主委來請國發會"},{"start":10896.165,"end":10913.295,"text":"主委,今天可惜主委還沒有過來,但是我想你應該已經跟主委開過會了吧?主委在這一次有特別提到是說,面對AI時代,希望能夠讓台灣AI產業化、產業AI化。有沒有具體說要怎麼做?"},{"start":10914.498,"end":10943.109,"text":"基本上其實就我想AI這個政策新內閣成立之前其實也已經有精創台灣了也有AI 1.0跟2.0的相關的政策那我覺得台灣現在產業AI相關產業的人才缺口有多少基本上應該如果我們看看那個STAND的人才我們有做一些推估應該有一些相"},{"start":10946.286,"end":10959.862,"text":"台灣的產業媒體相關也有整理出來AI應用是三大產業領域裡面人才缺口最大的總共有高達2.5萬的人才缺口"},{"start":10962.162,"end":10986.907,"text":"那本席想請教啊,現在感覺新政府言必稱AI啊AI內閣AI產業化、產業AI化那我們今天也在審理相關人才相關的一些法條那我們自己就最內部的如果說我們自己的產業都有高達兩萬五千個人才缺口那我們要怎麼樣培養AI的人才還是用口號"},{"start":10988.553,"end":11016.425,"text":"我想絕對不是口號。我也希望不是口號。就是其實這個國科會在AI1.0、AI2.0裡面其實人才培育就是它的重點項目之一。那我們基本的策略就是第一個就是先培養我們高教的、STAND相關的人才。譬如說增加招生的名額跟科系。然後呢而且讓那些非資訊的。所以跟教育部合作。教育部合作,對。"},{"start":11017.165,"end":11033.341,"text":"然後有產學公寓比如說我們的半導體學院那個創新條例裡面的然後另外一個就是包括我們延攬精創台灣裡面怎麼樣延攬AI的新創的人才到台灣來所以外國的人才對所以預計這幾方面你的比例怎麼配比"},{"start":11038.666,"end":11064.363,"text":"基本上當然越多越好每一個越多越好那是整個餅越多越好你有辦法達到2.5萬人的缺口那另外一方面你多少是我們台灣自己高教培養多少是外國人才進來這都要去計算吧是是會這都有計算吧是會有計算這都有規劃吧對有所以你現在的方向是什麼好基本上那個Stan的人才裡面我們逐年都擴增他站"},{"start":11065.163,"end":11070.485,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":11088.752,"end":11113.812,"text":"是環境部長有提到一個很重要就是在今年本來是說4月我們的碳費費率要出來但是沒有出來現在又說6月才要開審議委員會希望能夠把它訂立碳費但我們也看到了國發會就是認為說現在2050精靈碳排目標所以也push環境部說趕快來把碳費這邊要確認對不對"},{"start":11117.871,"end":11134.445,"text":"我想碳費的徵收目前應該還是按照我們現在既有的時程規劃的時程來計劃既有規劃時程是什麼時候明年就要開始明年徵收嘛今年公告明年徵收嘛對啊那現在今年都還沒公告啊這重點本來講三月底"},{"start":11135.586,"end":11146.757,"text":"因為千呼萬喚總是要使出來嘛三月底然後又講說四月底現在又講說六月六月能不能出來剛剛環境部長講的是說那是碳費審議委員會的決策部長無權過問"},{"start":11151.06,"end":11168.413,"text":"我想的確就是就如部長說的因為我們碳費的制定成立一個委員會所以我們還是要尊重委員會的決定那當然我們會希望至少今年啦今年底希望是不是可以在委員會裡面達到一個共識然後達到一個決定這樣子"},{"start":11169.861,"end":11192.16,"text":"你剛講目標還是不變,但是你沒有辦法,所以你只能希望。對,我跟委員報告就是說,其實情勢是在變化當中的。情勢當然在變化,滾動檢討嘛。那我現在的講法就是說,我們現在的設定是按照既定的時程。有沒有信心在今年六月的時候可以出來費率?"},{"start":11193.787,"end":11214.551,"text":"就看看那個,因為那個基本上委員會我沒有參加。您不是主委,我不為難你啦。是。但另外一個部分,能源政策是不是也應該要滾動檢討?我同意,我想同意。同意嗎?對。現在七大工業國G7,他們之前有提出了一個方向,什麼方向?它的結論有沒有看到?七大工業國。"},{"start":11220.668,"end":11242.817,"text":"他們認為核能不再發表反核的言論並且承認核能環保地位這一個第二2035年之前逐步淘汰燃煤發電就是減少火力發電的占比尤其是碳排比較大的燃煤2035要淘汰燃煤發電"},{"start":11244.847,"end":11272.606,"text":"承認核能環保的地位不再發表反核的言論。那既然如此我想現在大家都在講我們國發會規劃的2050電力配比目標再生能源佔60到70%非常高的比例甚至是高過一半以上以現在還剩20多年的時間有辦法做到嗎?以現在技術、人力、物力、效率"},{"start":11274.062,"end":11281.188,"text":"二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":11293.658,"end":11307.951,"text":"到時候有更多比如說青人有其他的創新人員的技術會出來在這個衡量之下我們覺得因為這個設定的60到70我們跟其他的國家比較或者是IEA公布的政府人員比較"},{"start":11309.452,"end":11326.463,"text":"我們國發會有時空旅人回來告訴你說未來一切都可以解決所以現在不用擔心啦60、70%就定下去啦應該是說我們討論能源方向是務實、理性而且更重要的是要符合現實所以你剛剛有講滾動檢討有收到滾動檢討的指令了嗎?"},{"start":11331.165,"end":11354.663,"text":"基本上就是我現在因為我們那個前主委有在這個會場上講過就是說聯約政策的前草一切是在全民有共識之下會有做決定所以現在前主委已經高升到秘書長了是他有沒有新的指示目前還沒有因為他已經不是我的主管了"},{"start":11356.277,"end":11379.063,"text":"本期還是希望今天第一天今天這個520之後新政府上任第一天質詢我們以理性科學的方式來互相溝通最重要的是專業的問政我也希望是說未來的每一次答詢我們都本質專業而不是政治意識形態好嗎?是是謝謝副主委好謝謝委員好謝謝黃孟楷委員謝謝"},{"start":11380.646,"end":11395.755,"text":"接下來我們請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請勞動部跟衛福部來請勞動部還有衛福部衛福部來委員好"},{"start":11406.958,"end":11427.858,"text":"勞動部是主秘嗎?發展署主任秘書陳世昌陳主秘我想請教就是說勞動部在這個月初有一個預告草案就是你開放外國人可以從事社會工作室那要求雇主應該是立案的團體或評鑑合格的機構"},{"start":11429.139,"end":11452.533,"text":"那最主要是說要增加這個僱外生留台的機會那我們知道說外國人是本來就可以考台灣的這個社工師的這個國考可以取得這個社工師的執照那到目前4月底截止也有30個人取得這個社工師的執照那我們知道說"},{"start":11455.074,"end":11471.359,"text":"取得社工師的執照,那是不是可以投入這個又是另外一個問題。但我想請教就是說,衛福部在徵詢這個勞動部及社工相關專業團體的意見之後,那是支持開放外國人擔任社工。"},{"start":11472.079,"end":11481.889,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":11495.598,"end":11522.396,"text":"是,跟委員報告,這個案子的緣起是來自於衛福部在112年的時候主動建議勞動部這邊有沒有可能把這個外生,小外生這邊他如果取得這個社工食證照的部分可以納入我們的專業人員這邊來試用。那所以這個部分是經過那個衛福部這邊主管機關的一個評估。那我們也認為說這個部分在實務上只要能夠確保他有一個實習的制度可以做那個"},{"start":11522.996,"end":11541.243,"text":"指揮制度加上他的一個僱用的一個這個人員確實是法定的一個職業的處所就可以來運用那目前陳律委員所講的我們知道的在國內的僱外生大概有三十幾位是具有這樣子的一個這個社會福利的一個情形那預計這個草案預計如果這個通過之後那"},{"start":11542.223,"end":11570.618,"text":"預定會有多少人取得這個執照,那也有多少人可以投入這個社工師的工作?我們是提供這樣的一個機會給這個擁有這個執照的人,目前已經有三十幾位具有這個資格。我相信如果說這個草案通過之後,也許會有更多人投入也不一定,就是說你們自己本身有沒有去做過這樣的一個評估?這個我們坦白講,我們沒有做過這樣的評估。好,那請衛福部"},{"start":11573.171,"end":11580.598,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員"},{"start":11594.248,"end":11606.351,"text":"檢測過這個草案通過之後,那大約會有多少人取得執照,那有大約多少人會投入這樣社工師的工作?因為目前統計起來,現行到113年4月,外國人領有社工師證照的有30位。"},{"start":11614.554,"end":11629.546,"text":"對於未來會投入多少,目前是沒有做相關的評估。因為這是在保障他們依法,依照社會工作司法取得的社工師證照。那我們當然要保障他在實務上能夠執業。所以才經過徵詢勞動部以及社會工作專業團體的意見以後,做成這樣的政策建議,建議勞動部來把這個納維"},{"start":11640.959,"end":11669.756,"text":"外國人可以在臺灣執行這個專業性工作的開放的項目。好,那我想請教就是我們知道說社工的這個工作真的非常的辛苦啦。那當然就是說這個勞動部或者是社工團體的這些建議那最主要我們也希望就是說衛福部應該針對我們社工人員他們所提出來的目前的這個工作環境還有待遇以及"},{"start":11670.596,"end":11672.158,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":11686.758,"end":11714.991,"text":"我想排擠應該是不至於因為就陳如剛剛所報告的這些人實際上現行也只有30位那其實做這樣的政策建議不是要解決這個社工人力不足的問題那我們是在保障這些外國人既然依法取得我國的社會工作室證照所以讓他在實務上能夠進行職業那對於委員所關心的這些社工人力不足的問題以及工作環境惡劣的問題"},{"start":11716.372,"end":11737.294,"text":"全面性在做檢討跟改善包括提高社工薪資補助民間薪資的起薪的調整那另外在公部門也增加了資深社工員的職務那調高我們的薪資的天花板那另外整體在社安網計畫也在增加我們的社工的專業人力所以是從全面性的來改善"},{"start":11737.854,"end":11743.921,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":11759.057,"end":11783.851,"text":"對,那我們知道說在人口、人力密集的地區其實往往是目前看到就是說新北市需求人數是最高達到562人那禁用人數是399人禁用率只有71%啦那我們想請教就是說社會安全網對社工人員的這個要求是希望一定要聘主當年度"},{"start":11784.651,"end":11800.618,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、"},{"start":11810.663,"end":11835.003,"text":"我想我們已經把這個社工人力的禁用率納入社福考核指標另外其實各縣市平均的禁用率已經接近九成所以整體來說其實我們的社工的人力在這三年之間增加了大概一千多人所以我們會持續再督導地方政府來改善那加強這個社工人力的禁用好"},{"start":11835.943,"end":11859.313,"text":"我可以在最後一個問題,那保護性的社工,因為目前保護性的社工人力是非常吃緊的那第一線的社工必須要逐一到這個案家去做訪視那我想請教就是說,像你們這樣子讓外國人力來填補,有沒有辦法就是說我們現在開放之後,那這個外國人力來填補這樣的一個不足"},{"start":11860.353,"end":11861.414,"text":"王秀芳委員陳培宇委員"},{"start":11891.591,"end":11893.173,"text":"來請勞動部、教育部、體育署"},{"start":11898.564,"end":11923.466,"text":"委員好謝謝那我們就開始謝謝主席那今天雖然談的是外國專業人才延攬僱用辦法跟高照相關但是我們辦公室之前有一個議題一直在跟跟你們討論的就是關於跨國的未成年運動員相關的勞動問題那我要先說從去年11月我們發現有一些學校或是一些球隊透過申請工作簽證的方法"},{"start":11923.866,"end":11930.173,"text":"找外籍的未成年球員來臺灣參加高中聯賽當時我們對勞動部提出質詢很感謝勞動部有非常積極的回應因為我們看到體育署當時的回應只是推給所謂的學生聯賽不能簽約有家長同意書這種非常消極的說法我覺得對於新政府不斷強調兒少權益來說我覺得是"},{"start":11946.65,"end":11973.457,"text":"很危險的警訊所以再一次今天想要再次來請教勞動部體育署跟教育部目前在這件事情上你們的相關進度我們來看下一頁那我們很感謝勞動部在我們上次諮詢之後給我們非常正向的回應看得出來勞動部在相關跨國未成年的這些勞動權益或是兒少權益上非常的重視而且你們也提醒了體育署未來以後有相關案件你們會逐案協商"},{"start":11974.058,"end":11977.142,"text":"協同教育部這部分可不可以請你們再進一步說明目前相關的進度跟規劃。"},{"start":11979.793,"end":12007.453,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個運動員的部分這個專業人才的部分我們現在的這個審核的標準都是依照目的世界主管機關所提的這個資格來進行審查所以在運動員的部分目前確實沒有年齡的一個條件限制那所以我們之前才會是建議這個教育部體育署這邊是不是需要再研議這個部分來做進一步的一個勞動權益的一個基本的一個保障那體育署他們有給你們回覆說明關於年齡的限制這個問題或是"},{"start":12008.434,"end":12014.341,"text":"一旦有不同所謂成年跟未成年尤其在未成年這一塊他們的說法還是我們可以請體育署直接回應"},{"start":12016.444,"end":12042.578,"text":"委員好,體育署這邊有召開相關會議那大概針對年齡的部分因為其實勞動基準法針對年齡已經有相關規定就是雇主必須要聘雇年滿15歲或國中畢業者那所以我們這邊的話是沒有特別的其他的意見可是請問一下體育署你們真的認為所有這些跨國從國外不管什麼原因被聯賽或是學校聘到台灣來這些兒少我再一次強調他們是兒少"},{"start":12044.059,"end":12050.863,"text":"以及他們可能來自比較經濟弱勢的國家他們真的是因為想要為家裡賺這份錢運用他們的天賦遠度來到臺灣所以相關我都還沒有跟你們談到關於教育的權益他們在這裡居住的安全的權益還有他們就學的權益會不會因為他們去比賽他們不斷被強迫要求練習而犧牲這些全面的權益如果你現在要用勞動基準法來談"},{"start":12069.492,"end":12090.122,"text":"對於這些跨國的兒少真的公平嗎?或是會不會台灣再次背上人權地獄的國家?雖然可能看起來這些跨國未成年運動員的人數沒有這麼多可是他可能引發的危機其實很大的我可不可以問一下體育署目前你們還有沒有其他的進度或者是相關的規範跟討論正在進行當中?"},{"start":12093.418,"end":12115.602,"text":"其實針對未成年院隊員來台的部分可能他們可以分成是工作簽證來台或者是學生簽證來台那據我們了解可能會申請應該正常上申請學生簽證然後有一些會申請工作簽證來台最主要是因為我們有了解是私校的部分那私校有跟我們反映說他們大概是在申請學生簽證方面比較困難所以他們會用工作簽證的方式"},{"start":12116.042,"end":12128.709,"text":"那其實我們這邊也有跟私校這邊有進行討論過那他們也希望說將來能夠回歸正軌就是申請學生簽證那可能會像是釋出例如說是像獎學金等等的方式來吸引這些學生來開所以體育署這邊也開始跟外交部談相關學生簽證的問題因為一旦"},{"start":12131.971,"end":12135.314,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":12150.128,"end":12179.185,"text":"以下這邊都有寫我相信你們手上一定有資料我想要再次強調下一頁我要先謝謝勞動部之前積極的回應在照顧兒、少、未成年、運動員、跨國遷徙的權益所以我們會再一次進一步要求下一頁體育署請在一個月召開相關會議不管這個事情後續學生聯賽的球隊的部分或是私校你剛講到私校的部分他們的需求是什麼他們對於未成年、跨國運動員的想像又是什麼我覺得體育署你們畢竟隸屬在教育部底下"},{"start":12179.665,"end":12191.033,"text":"教育主管機關對於兒少的就學居住勞動權益當然你們有勞動部協助你們,絕對不能忽視所以我們要求一個月體育署內要召開相關會議針對未成年運動員勞動政策進行盤點而且這個會議當中必須有兒少專家、人權專家還有勞動專家"},{"start":12198.038,"end":12225.173,"text":"不能在自由體育署或者是教育部內部的人員自行進行討論或者是你們只去邀請那些有這個需求的私校我覺得這對於未成年兒少、跨國運動員非常不公平所以這個部分拜託你們再積極一點接下來國教署也請在三個月內目前高中以下外籍學生來台就讀參與運動賽事的狀況進行了解還有明明其實國外有非常多成熟又文明的"},{"start":12226.294,"end":12248.096,"text":"規範制度可以參考。拜託,如果臺灣真的有這個需求,也請在法規面上促進更完善的環境。以上兩個需求有機會在期限內完成嗎?謝謝。謝謝委員。指正體育署這邊會正常辦理,那同時在召開跨部會議的時候也希望委員能夠歷歷直達,謝謝。沒問題,我們一定會積極參加。那另外關於國教署的部分呢?"},{"start":12250.077,"end":12252.618,"text":"國教署等報告配合辦理好,謝謝主席,謝謝你們,謝謝好,謝謝謝謝陳培鈺委員來接下來我們請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":12304.506,"end":12310.788,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":12315.444,"end":12316.166,"text":"大理司長、廖司長"},{"start":12324.005,"end":12346.606,"text":"委員長市長早那我想今天我想要針對就是我關於2030的一個雙語政策的計畫來跟市長做一個討論就是說2020年教育部有提出一個2030年的雙語政策計畫那這也是賴總統非常重要的一個政見那就是說我們需要讓這件事情成功有一個關鍵因素就是我們的英語師資的人數"},{"start":12349.789,"end":12367.104,"text":"那根據國立師範大學林子斌教授在2022年他有針對雙語國家政策的一個建言提到了外籍師資具有母語優勢可作為學習語言的資源之一但是以雙語教育的本質來說應該還是以兩種語言同時來學習"},{"start":12371.877,"end":12388.536,"text":"那我想問一下就是說引進英語的教學人力資源像是外籍的英語教師啦或是全時的外籍英語教學人員或是部分工時的教學人員對於現階段來推動2013年的雙語政策的目標是什麼呢?"},{"start":12391.137,"end":12407.905,"text":"我們這一個部分因為有分大專以上跟高中以下的一個部分那剛才委員所提到的這個英語師資就是英語教學人力的這個外籍師資的一個部分是涉及到我們國教署就是的部分是不是我們請國教署的同仁"},{"start":12408.891,"end":12428.237,"text":"委員好,那剛才委員詢問到就是全時的這個外籍英語師資的部分,目前全國有在高中以下有857位,那部分工時的師資有606位。那我們這目標就是希望能夠透過這樣子的一個沉浸式的雙語教學,然後提升我們學生的英語能力。"},{"start":12428.957,"end":12440.715,"text":"好,所以這樣聽起來齁就是說因為我們現在其實是用外加元而來引進這些英語師資來提供你剛剛說的這個所謂沉浸式教學嘛齁那所以這樣聽起來我們應該要非常重視這些英語外籍師資嘛,對不對?"},{"start":12443.725,"end":12466.534,"text":"我們現在也訂了一些相關的一些衡量的標準跟目標值,就是像國中、國小其實都會有一些我們要求達到,不管是全時或是公時的人數,高中也有。那我想要問的第二個問題就是說,我們現在目前針對於現在我們2022年其實有設一個目標,2024年有設一個目標,我們2022年是不是都已經達成了呢?"},{"start":12469.107,"end":12480.93,"text":"二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員"},{"start":12497.108,"end":12513.649,"text":"目前呈現的是到1、2學年度的資料,那我們1、1、3學年度是從8月開始來計算。好,那這個有更新的資料了是嗎?沒有,因為現在還沒有到1、1、3學年度的聘任期。OK,好。那我想這個相關有沒有一些比較具體的一個計畫呢?可不可以提供到我們辦公室?"},{"start":12514.33,"end":12533.36,"text":"好,是,我們會後再提供。好,謝謝。好,那我想我們就進來一個比較重要的重點,就是我們現在因為外語師資非常的關鍵,可是我們跟台日、我們跟日韓來相比,我們其實這個師資的要求是相對高的。高沒有什麼問題,我們因為像日本跟南韓大概就是學士就好,"},{"start":12533.86,"end":12546.933,"text":"台灣還需要一個師資、教師的資格。這個我認為是沒有問題,但是如果我們今天要求這麼高,我們就必須提供一個更具有吸引力的條件,讓大家願意來台灣做這件事情。"},{"start":12548.746,"end":12569.608,"text":"那我想問一下就是說我們現在是有一個外國專業人才延攬及僱用的一個計畫那這裡面其實是也有特定專業的人員那這個特定專業的人員呢其實是由主管機關來認定的那我們這個主管機關的認定上面是不是有可能把它"},{"start":12571.25,"end":12596.608,"text":"因為來認定這個英語的外籍教學師資他有沒有可能認定在這個特定的專業人才呢?因為他可以有更好的一個這個就業的一個條件就是說他有這個就業的金卡那他的持線也比較長這部分是有可行的嗎?不然這樣子一直不停的教師流動其實對學生的學習也不是一個很好的狀態所以教育部的代表可以幫我們說明一下嗎?"},{"start":12597.683,"end":12618.045,"text":"各位委員報告這些高中以下的這些英語的那個教師原則上他是屬於協助性質的居多那剛才所提到的這些就業金卡大部分是他要滿足一定特定的一些規定比如說他要16萬以上或者是在我們的那個所謂的那個相關的研究機構來服務"},{"start":12619.206,"end":12627.26,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":12631.551,"end":12656.477,"text":"對,但是我們剛剛前面其實有講嘛因為外籍資資是我們今天雙語國家一個很重要的東西而我今天用這麼高的一個標準跟要求那我如果我今天沒有更好的計畫怎麼吸引這些人願意來台灣做這件事情呢?謝謝委員那是不是容我們在會後再盤整一些相關的資源的提供在吸引外資上面能夠做得更好是不是容我們在會後提供更詳細的規劃?"},{"start":12658.032,"end":12669.61,"text":"那我想請問一下就是說因為這部分因為跟攬財這件事情非常有關係那這個國發部的高副主任是不是今天有來嗎?有,好那副主任不好意思喔"},{"start":12672.189,"end":12675.832,"text":"他只要符合我們專法的適用對象,我們一定就全力支持。"},{"start":12697.611,"end":12698.612,"text":"接下來我們請郭育晴委員發言"},{"start":12724.758,"end":12727.687,"text":"主席好。有請國發會副主委。來請副主委。謝謝。"},{"start":12735.557,"end":12758.151,"text":"國會議員好。副主委早安。想問一下就是在109年的時候我們國法會其實有成立所謂的這個台灣就業金卡的辦公室是專門提供給國外比較專業的一些人才來就他們的一些專業的部分來提供一些協助跟延攬。那當然透過這個一戰式的一個服務其實也更有效率的能夠來"},{"start":12759.232,"end":12771.796,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":12788.271,"end":12791.874,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":12810.136,"end":12837.284,"text":"因為我們這個是一個問卷的調查報告那因為那個有時候都是在流動性因為他有時候會有一個尋職的一個空窗期那我個人是覺得以5%來說應該還是在一個合理的範圍內因為他如果進來的他也許一個是他自己自行他不需要找工作他自己就是老闆那一種是他要找工作那總是還是有一個磨合期"},{"start":12838.184,"end":12861.142,"text":"當然就我們來說我們是一站式的服務所以他有任何的需要我們都會提供協助但是我們看到其實就是擁有這個所謂的這個金卡就業的人其實他們的條件應該是說他們自身的條件應該是專業度其實要比一般的外籍人士要來的好所以這個5%目前有沒有可能在"},{"start":12862.444,"end":12872.619,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":12877.425,"end":12888.318,"text":"另外在國發會的新聞稿當中我們也看到62%的外國人其實是有意願要規劃我國的國籍但是依照移民署的統計資料顯示其實112年的3月到113年的4月最新統計的資料"},{"start":12894.725,"end":12919.435,"text":"其實在最後的總人數的部分只有增加了大概是26人那是因為是申請的條件門檻比較高嗎?還是說因為既然有62%的人其實他們是喜歡台灣也希望能夠擁有所謂的這個台灣的國籍但是是因為門檻比較高所以他們比較難申請嗎?"},{"start":12921.296,"end":12923.141,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":12928.412,"end":12953.437,"text":"我請我們的處長來回應一下謝謝委員提問關於這個問題是這邊我們調查的對象他們有62%有入籍的意願可是意願不代表他們有辦法就真的入籍因為入籍的話還要符合一定的條件那一般專業人才他們還必須要就是居留滿5年之後才有這個入籍的考量"},{"start":12953.857,"end":12979.925,"text":"那我們目前只有提供高級專業人才可以入籍的時候免放棄國籍所以說在一般專業人才他即便有意願他考量到要放棄國籍也許他就沒有申請了所以我們這邊提到的委員提到的這個數據是高專的一個規劃的一個數據所以是說不需要放棄他原本的國籍然後申請台灣的國籍等於他有用三重國籍嗎"},{"start":12980.545,"end":12999.642,"text":"對,可以允許雙重國人是高專,那高專是依據入出國移民法的一些規定需要有特殊的一個才能跟專業技能才能符合這個資格。所以這個條件有沒有機會可以再放寬?是,我們可以跟,我們這邊可以跟我們的移民署這邊我們也許可以再來做一些討論。好,以上。"},{"start":13000.683,"end":13015.922,"text":"那接下來我想問一下就是說以國防會在112年跟到114年我們在重點的一個專業人才的供需這樣子的一個研究的狀況之下我們可以看到在教育背景需求以工程跟"},{"start":13016.463,"end":13044.91,"text":"工程業佔比其實高達50.4%。另外其次再是我們的資訊通訊科技是佔23.9%但是在商業管理的佔比是19.1%這是根據所謂的教育部他們在招收所謂的僱外生的資料顯示他們的商業跟管理佔比反而是比我們需要的人才在工程跟工程業的佔比"},{"start":13046.11,"end":13049.513,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":13061.982,"end":13089.003,"text":"對,我們現在正全力的進行跨部會的合作,我們希望他們在僱外生、招生來台的學系跟我們人才需求要相吻合。就會在逐步調整當中,比如說我們會有教育部會有開一個叫重點產業系所的招生,他們會擴大招生的緣額會設定在我們的就是5加2點"},{"start":13089.964,"end":13115.961,"text":"五加二這些重點產業那教育部有一個國際的專修班裡面也會特別針對我們比較需要的這些短缺的這些人才或人力來進行這個招生那的確如委員說的因為現存的這個大學統計的學門跟我們需要的人才之間的確有某個程度的落差可是我們全力在在謀和縮小這個落差當中"},{"start":13118.362,"end":13130.263,"text":"最後再給我一點點的時間喔因為剛剛其實我還特別就是質詢了這個文化部的部分喔我們來看一下就是外國的專業人才從事所謂的藝術工作的許可他是"},{"start":13130.759,"end":13136.903,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":13156.66,"end":13182.174,"text":"這個部分我們可以再給他們什麼樣的一些幫助能夠提高這個許可證的比例我想外國專業人才他許可證的比例是屬於勞動部的救福法的範疇之內那我想我們是不是請勞動部來說明一下為什麼許可率相對偏低沒關係因為時間的關係但是有沒有一些說明我想我們會後對會後再給我們一些說明的一些資料好嗎"},{"start":13182.793,"end":13183.253,"text":"邱志偉等"},{"start":13212.423,"end":13212.644,"text":"邱志偉等"},{"start":13224.315,"end":13224.775,"text":"副主委好"},{"start":13254.315,"end":13255.376,"text":"外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條"},{"start":13271.269,"end":13279.295,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":13300.59,"end":13310.216,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":13328.488,"end":13352.936,"text":"我覺得分作兩個部分,就是說一般救福法裡面,你只要符合救福法的規定,有僱主願意僱用,那你的就業的條件是47971加上大學畢業加兩年工作經驗,那你就可以進入到臺灣。我想中階技術人也有一部分是屬於這塊的人力。另外一方面我們就有勞工"},{"start":13354.276,"end":13363.023,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":13373.09,"end":13378.436,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":13392.13,"end":13417.85,"text":"那我現在是想問您啊,不過這是勞動部的新聞喔,因為勞動部有預告說外國人以後可以在台灣當社工師喔,那衛福部有認同具專業性。那我想請問邱志偉就是說,如果是一個社工師的話,那目前會符合你們這個相關的已有的規定嗎?我覺得對,應該是外國專業人才你們就符合。因為我剛剛有講過他只要有僱主,而且他有薪資47971,對,大學畢業兩年工作都可以。"},{"start":13422.114,"end":13434.231,"text":"產業的類別應該也是在這裏面。那現在我的一個問題就是因為我們所了解的那你們的申請來台需求有一項是月薪達47971這樣沒錯吧?是這是一般專業人才對"},{"start":13437.495,"end":13461.9,"text":"那所以你的意思是說社工師不需要走這個一般專業人才的這條路嗎?因為社工師我們看他的平均薪資喔欸等一下社工師的平均薪資喔那其實是是並沒有到四萬嘛他是113年前社工調整的起薪只有三萬七千元欸那這部分的這個矛盾是怎麼解決?"},{"start":13464.591,"end":13485.865,"text":"對,基本上如果他走的,我剛才說有三個管道嘛,他基本走的是一般專業人才,的確要符合月薪4797,可是如果他是僱外生的話,他如果不是僱外生,僱外生點數加起來會夠,這是我們知道的,那是一個不錯的刺激的辦法。那可是今天他如果走的不是就是僱外生這條路呢?"},{"start":13486.445,"end":13514.636,"text":"是就還是要符合就符法的那這樣子我們這個開放的意義跟這之間的矛盾我想問的是說專業人才為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業那我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業譬如說某些工程師需要還是也看到社會的需求那社工因為他不被認為是個產業很多都是政府部門或是NGO外包的所以我們就看不到社會其實也有這個需求"},{"start":13515.987,"end":13537.449,"text":"因為社工師的薪資以我知道的在其他國家是比台灣更高那他可能想要來台灣也許有別的原因那數量也不是很大可是這裡你就會發現他有卡關跟勞動部之間的政策是矛盾的所以想請問副主委這個問題基本上就是因為"},{"start":13538.63,"end":13565.148,"text":"因為一般專業人才的主管部會還是勞動部啦,法規的主管部會啦齁那在沒有修法之前的確一定要符合月薪47971的相關規定那我是不是可以請勞動部主秘來說明一下當初設定這個標準的立法的意思跟原則是怎麼樣那在社公司的適用上面是怎麼樣那因為我時間快到是可以簡短說明好嗎是所以這之間是不需要處理的嗎嗯"},{"start":13569.5,"end":13572.237,"text":"跟委員報告目前這個我們的這個"},{"start":13573.976,"end":13584.6,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":13602.446,"end":13618.454,"text":"所以你們基本上社工師指對就是在臺灣念完大學的喬生開放嗎?他只要取得那個我們的社工師的證照就可以符合。可是取得社工師證照他的薪資並沒有達到這個部分啊?"},{"start":13619.653,"end":13632.757,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等四、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、本院委員王定宇等五、"},{"start":13649.363,"end":13649.623,"text":"主席"},{"start":13678.742,"end":13680.184,"text":"要請副主委嗎?"},{"start":13696.678,"end":13718.248,"text":"委員好我想今天大家都在討論有關於這個外國專業人才的延攬跟僱用前面已經很多委員都已經關心相關專業人才的規範本席認為我們也應該要多關心中階技術工的流產狀況就好像剛剛我們范委員所提到的部分"},{"start":13719.008,"end":13740.607,"text":"那我們可以從國家發展委員會的網頁的訊息看到有三大的部分要來做這個人才的留置包括強化延攬外國專業人才包括擴大吸引及留用僱外生那第三個部分就是積極的留用外國技術人才"},{"start":13741.267,"end":13769.479,"text":"那這其中就包括了成立移工流財久用服務中心等等這個是我們很期待透過這樣的努力能夠讓更多的中階技術工能夠留在臺灣貢獻他們的心力移工流財的久用方案基本上就是算是中階的技術工人那國內的社務移工目前一共有12萬人左右"},{"start":13770.579,"end":13787.734,"text":"其中只有1.5萬人申請了這個流財僱用的方案請問一下陳竹蜜你覺得這一部分我們還有辦法做哪一些的加強或者是是哪一些的因素讓這樣的流財方案無法發揮它的功能"},{"start":13788.539,"end":13808.712,"text":"是跟委員報告這個流財久用的方案他所適用的對象是針對在台灣已經工作滿6年以上的具有一定年資的移工或者是累計不一定他是完整連續也許是累計11年半的也都可以適用那所以第一個他可能有一些資格條件這不見得是所有目前在台灣的這個這個"},{"start":13811.133,"end":13816.776,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":13835.965,"end":13846.449,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":13863.157,"end":13877.216,"text":"他們因為無法申請到適當的條件之下,能夠久留而變成了失聯的義工。是,希望他們這些有一定的年資的義工留在台灣,這個是我們努力的目標。"},{"start":13878.097,"end":13901.896,"text":"對於失聯的部分,他的問題的成因其實比較複雜,那包括勞動條件跟僱主對待以及外部的一個經濟誘因等等因素,那這個部分我們也會透過怎麼樣去讓他僱主可以合法的僱用、合法的移工以及對於源頭從外國的仲介部分去做一些管理,跟包括對於這個來源國的部分去要求配合做一些改善,這部分我們會持續辦理。"},{"start":13902.921,"end":13918.428,"text":"是,因為剛剛換委員所提到的部分薪資條件對這一群的移工來講他的確是有他的門檻跟困難的地方所以就有移工留才久用畫大餅"},{"start":13919.508,"end":13939.609,"text":"好像因為門檻太高看得到吃不到當然剛剛高副主委也有提到相關的一些流財專用的這些政策的部分將來有沒有機會再去做一些修正或者是有哪一些可以再修改變的部分"},{"start":13940.749,"end":13961.819,"text":"這個部分的薪資門檻的訂定基本上我們有先徵詢過各個部位所訂的啦那當然隨著台灣的未來的情勢的發展這裡面仍然有一些檢討的空間這我們會適時的做滾動處理好 謝謝主秘謝謝委員那再過來我麻煩社家署有關於這個社會安全網的部分"},{"start":13970.39,"end":13997.565,"text":"委員好你好我們知道社會安全是非常重要的能夠讓社會維持安全大家能夠生活安定的一部分那針對第一期計畫所提倡的一些檢討事項很快就要進入到第二期那不知道目前針對從第一期跨到第二期當中我們需要瞭解還有需要注意的事項包括哪一些可以請說明嗎"},{"start":14000.21,"end":14019.429,"text":"首先在第一期裡頭我們大概已經完成了所謂社福中心的一個建制對於摧惡家庭的相關的一個服務也漸漸的上了軌道也增聘了一千多名的社工員但是在第一期的檢討整個社安網的檢討目前是正在進行當中"},{"start":14020.069,"end":14041.415,"text":"大概是未來會朝著整個深化整個催加的整個服務的模式還有專業的一個領域的建立的方式來往前進這樣子是,所以會提出這個問題是因為最近社會發生了讓大家會擔心的這些社會安全的部分那我們也知道其實護理師"},{"start":14044.476,"end":14064.426,"text":"目前有將近7%是屬於男性的護理師他們在工作的過程裡面很難免會有一些比較因為他的職場上面的一些壓力那針對這部分可以有更好的方式來讓我們這些男性的護理師得到性別平等的這些努力嗎?"},{"start":14065.907,"end":14089.112,"text":"這個部分因為是屬於護理師的這個我們那個招呼師的範圍,我想我會帶回去,那部裡頭再進行演繹。好,那就麻煩。謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝王振旭委員。接下來我們請吳佩奕委員發言。謝謝主席,我請國發會。來,請國發會副主委。"},{"start":14097.042,"end":14117.569,"text":"委員好嘿 主委好今天我們要審查的是攬裁專法那這一部法規是在2017年的時候制定當時的立法目的就是希望能夠進行國際攬裁來增加我們台灣的國際競爭力那按照我們法規有分為外國專業人才跟特定專業人才特定專業人才可以申請就業金卡"},{"start":14118.169,"end":14145.826,"text":"那到去年的今年的三月底為止我們臺灣目前累計核發了近一萬張就業金卡外國專業人才的部分則有一萬八千人次但是我注意到2017年當時在立法的時候國防會曾經引述一個數據就是洛桑國際管理學院裡面關於國際人才競爭力的報告我們臺灣在2017年的時候排名在第16名到去年的時候我們進步到了"},{"start":14146.767,"end":14170.999,"text":"比當時進步了4名是20名。從24名進步到20名更正。那在吸引具高技能之外國人才的這個項目呢我們也是進步了7名但是還有很大努力空間。所以我想請問我們國防會目前對於吸引具高技能之外國人才目前我們對這個成果你們認為滿意嗎?"},{"start":14173.417,"end":14192.014,"text":"現在還有很多改進的空間,例如哪些?例如說,第一個就是我們就像我們今天修法的,我們是不是可以把我們這個專法裡面的相關的這些條件更優惠、更放寬,這樣子。"},{"start":14193.803,"end":14198.028,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":14215.566,"end":14222.132,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":14230.58,"end":14246.452,"text":"推動的是六大核心產業其中包括了量子科技AI跟機器人同時還有我們台灣的太空科技包括衛星火箭等等的這些產業我相信我們都非常的需要國際人才的協助所以我希望國發會我們要更積極的去看過去我們在纜財上面遇到什麼困難那我們現在要怎麼樣突破"},{"start":14252.857,"end":14265.348,"text":"這才是講的檢討,否則我們每年都說有進步空間,有進步空間,永遠這個進步空間都還有很大的距離。那我注意到說,因為我們海外來的華語生應該也在我們國發會攬財的範圍內。那我們台灣跟美國有簽訂合作,目前有一個台美教育倡議,這當然是教育部負責的計畫。"},{"start":14274.796,"end":14297.49,"text":"那目前美國來到台灣的華語生已經創到歷史的新高,超過了三千人。國發會有沒有跟教育部來討論?針對這一群學生已經來到台灣就讀了,我們目前我們的政策面向也都希望說來台灣就讀的,尤其是他們如果是專業領域的話,能夠延長,留下來就在台灣工作,成為我們的專業人才。國發會有沒有跟教育部在討論如何來去"},{"start":14299.751,"end":14306.619,"text":"加強媒合跟媒介讓這三千名的這些學生未來有機會留在臺灣繼續為產業貢獻那基本上就是說因為我們這個計畫你知道嗎我們知道因為這個是屬於雙語語"},{"start":14316.912,"end":14345.084,"text":"政策裡面的中間的一環嘛就是那個那主委你們去研究好不好跟教育部趕快來討論給我們報告那其中我要特別提醒你我們這幾年這個外國的人才專業人才升起就業金卡的比例最高的在經濟領域但是佔比例最少的是在體育體育目前佔的比例只有9名而已所以這個部分我希望國防會要去了解為什麼體育的人才申請這麼少"},{"start":14346.124,"end":14356.331,"text":"你看這個比例的差距非常的懸殊在經濟領域我們有4000近5000名在體育領域我們只有9名遇到什麼困難"},{"start":14358.355,"end":14362.537,"text":"主管機關設定欄材條件,目前的條件是甚麼?月薪要16萬元。月薪應該是沒有限制吧?"},{"start":14380.379,"end":14391.408,"text":"體育是教育部主管的,是不是可以請教育部的?對,因為體育署沒有來,我們教育部來是國際司,沒有關係。體育署有來。體育署回答。你們申請的這個類別,又有什麼單位來申請?通常都是有一些國際競賽的成績,都是教練、選手等等。"},{"start":14409.514,"end":14410.816,"text":"這個呢因為我們現在要提出推薦的單位是叫做協會跟聯盟但是以球員來講實際上聘僱球員的是在球團"},{"start":14423.109,"end":14446.6,"text":"所以在這個資訊之間有沒有確保他們都有收到資訊有沒有相關的落差因為我相信我們的需求不會這麼少何況我們現在還包括了運動產業相關的所以我希望這個你們要去反點一下那過去呢因為是有國訓推薦也可以有國訓中心但是我們現在新成立的運科中心嘛所以運科中心是不是有要納入推薦單位"},{"start":14447.96,"end":14469.169,"text":"這個我覺得體育署請國發會拜託國發會跟體育署趕快來討論一下因為我們即將我們體育署就要升格為體育部了運動產業是我們國家未來很重要推展的方向我們當然也需要專業人才所以這個部分也是請你們趕快去了解那一個月以內提給我們一個初步的規劃好不好好謝謝"},{"start":14476.722,"end":14494.037,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員接下來我們請羅美玲羅美玲羅美玲委員不在蘇巧慧蘇巧慧蘇巧慧委員不在鍾瑞雄鍾瑞雄鍾瑞雄委員不在王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在林楚瑩林楚瑩林楚瑩委員不在王定宇王定宇王定宇委員不在我們請徐欣盈委員發言"},{"start":14503.092,"end":14531.241,"text":"謝謝主席本席請這個國發會副主委來請國發會副主委委員好副主委好本席想請教我們今天在談這個我們延攬國外的專業人才那專業人才我想請教副主委您的看法專業人才他有意願來台灣"},{"start":14533.474,"end":14560.563,"text":"幾個重要的因素您認為是哪幾個?你吸引他而且讓他願意來。那當然是在台灣他有符合他覺得好的工作環境跟條件。我想這個是應該最重要的。那條件,條件是什麼?他會考慮什麼條件?第一個就是好的工資。對,待遇。然後呢?他所居住的環境。對,環境嘛。環境也很重要。"},{"start":14563.852,"end":14586.644,"text":"我請教一下我們國發會的政策我們延攬專業人才你需不希望他長期拘留在這當然需要需要嘛所以我們在這個拘留的部分本席這裡其實今天特別來這邊質詢是因為我們收到選民陳情就是我們有這個"},{"start":14592.264,"end":14619.818,"text":"我們有這個陳情仁他來台已經13年了他是美國人拿美國護照那他也是申請經濟部特殊人才規劃才獲批准的那但是那他太太像一個人專業人才來其實一個人他最重要其實他賺錢他在意薪資薪資要做什麼當然是養家活口嘛對不對一個人最終的歸屬還是家庭嘛"},{"start":14620.498,"end":14639.438,"text":"所以如果你讓他來他太太不能來他小孩不能來這個就會是問題好那本席要說的是他太太呢也申請了也採依親方式入境台灣申請長期居留OK但是他們兩人的親生子女"},{"start":14640.319,"end":14663.177,"text":"在他們夫妻倆成為台灣人之後沒有任何方式、任何法令可以申請長期居留他們的子女也無法因為父母成為台灣人而耕留台灣所以他的小孩需要每六個月一次的長期探親簽證而且只要出境台灣就要在國外等待申請新的簽證才可以入台"},{"start":14663.897,"end":14686.311,"text":"那小孩呢從小就從台灣長大但是我們又需要留住專業人才但是他卻沒有辦法好那我本席跟您這個說明一下陳情仁美國護照但是他的太太是大陸護照美國人娶大陸人那他的小孩呢就是大陸護照加美國護照這個案怎麼辦"},{"start":14688.257,"end":14710.788,"text":"那跟委員報告就是要成年才能移清啦這個是未成年未成年不能移清未成年才能移清成年有身障的才可以那這個看起來就是你覺得這規定合理因為我剛才有問同仁他其他國家也是同樣的一些相同的規範將心比心一下"},{"start":14711.468,"end":14722.808,"text":"今天你想留住他所以你就是逼迫他他要嘛就不要選擇在台灣選擇在台灣我們親生的小孩他沒辦法你說未成年可是他十三"},{"start":14724.11,"end":14734.058,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"},{"start":14753.593,"end":14780.825,"text":"您在這裡詢問可能他們對於個資、對於實際的狀況不太清楚。他對您回答,如果這個不夠精準的話,未來可能會構成藐視國會罪,這樣也不好意思。我這點本席倒沒有這麼認為啦。對,我們邱委考慮得對啦,我們個資的部分還是小心一下,但這邊應該還好,這裡沒有個資,只是講。那不好意思,最後本席還想請教一下,"},{"start":14781.505,"end":14804.655,"text":"我們對於這個申請引進外國專業技術人員我們是否有領域過度偏頗的現象因為我們的經濟發放金卡佔了48%但是其他像文化、數位、教育、金融、科技都相對少那這個部分"},{"start":14807.014,"end":14831.463,"text":"這個副主委怎麼看因為這個經濟這個領域涵蓋的範圍比較廣泛其實它某程度上也涵蓋到某些科技的或者是經濟相關的這些人才啦所以其實有某些可能應該是歸類在科技類可是可能因為經濟這個領域就是比較廣泛一點大家就申請"},{"start":14832.483,"end":14836.246,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":14850.716,"end":14868.183,"text":"各個主管機關儘量就他的櫃館的領域裡面儘量去把相關的規定合理化然後吸引到我們台灣所需要的各領域的專業外國的特定專業人才那就像剛剛說的那個教授體育的那部分其實我們也會跟"},{"start":14868.923,"end":14883.835,"text":"提議署再來做一些討論看如果現在的緣額引進相對少是因為條件過於嚴苛或者是那條件是我們自己訂的吧是的所以我們會檢討我們會檢討好很好謝謝好謝謝許新穎委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":14908.448,"end":14920.895,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那我們是不是請國發會副主委。來,請國發會副主委,謝謝。好,副主委好。"},{"start":14921.513,"end":14933.156,"text":"那今天想先跟副主委討論這個就業金卡那這個就業金卡是針對外國的一些專業人士然後他們可以去申請包括他們工作許可、居留簽證"},{"start":14934.127,"end":14959.771,"text":"外僱居留證跟重入國許可證的一個證件。那這個金卡的效率就是三年嘛,那外僱的居留證可以到五年,那五年以上未曾入國者,那就可以廢止及永久居留許可。那我想要請教的是說,為什麼就要訂這個五年以上未曾入國呢?"},{"start":14964.147,"end":14984.38,"text":"基本上我們已經這個應該是對應該是入出國移民法裡面的相關的規定就是說其實你過去是五年內每年都平均要到183天那我們現在是在這個法裡面是放寬到只要你出你在五年內只要有一次"},{"start":14985.16,"end":15009.959,"text":"有入境我就不會廢止他的永久居留許可因為我們這個法基本上是一個特別法那其實有些相關的規定還是要回歸到入庫和移民法、拯救服法的一般法的相關規範對可是他竟然已經給他永久居留了嘛是已經名稱把它叫做永久居留對那你又說你五年內沒有入境那"},{"start":15010.82,"end":15037.171,"text":"那你就要廢止永久居留那這樣就不是沒有永久居留的概念了就是說如果你取得就業金卡的話目前就是你取得永居的時間我們已經把它縮短成三年了三年中間如果你有博士學位的話你可以折頂一年也就是說你就算取得就業金卡你還是要有兩年的居留期間你才可以取得永居並不是你進來就可以那我現在講的是取得永居之後"},{"start":15039.332,"end":15045.397,"text":"對就是所有取得永居的人對所有的其他國家的法令也都是這個樣子就是就算你取得美國的綠卡你可能也需要"},{"start":15063.67,"end":15083.52,"text":"你還是有在有一些居留的事實在這個國家所以我們入出移民法裡面已經規範就是說你你的五年內你平均要有183天嘛那我們在這個法裡面我們已經放寬到你如果是就業金卡的話你只要五年內有一次入境我就不會取消你永居的這個條件這個資格啦好"},{"start":15087.021,"end":15109.494,"text":"那這是第一個那第二個我想要再請教這個副主委一樣是就這樣的一個移民就專業攬財的移民那你們現在專業攬財的移民你們就把他限在就業服務法46條第一項到第六項那我指的是說如果我們去思考"},{"start":15110.555,"end":15126.628,"text":"有很多事實上工廠他所聘請的現在的移工他可能已經工作超過了十年而且他的薪水也已經變成一定的程度已經不是傳統在做第一階工作的移工他已經做十年了他對整個工"},{"start":15127.108,"end":15146.578,"text":"整個工廠的運作是熟的甚至他們的薪水是高的但是一到12年之後他只要滿了12年他還是得出國出去了那事實上是不是變得說台灣一直都變得是這一些移工我們去等於是替人家替韓國去日本栽培這個傳統的"},{"start":15147.739,"end":15153.222,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":15172.251,"end":15197.011,"text":"讓他一樣可以去走專業的移民甚至一樣可以去走就業金卡有沒有辦法這樣嗎那跟委員報告齁的確其實我們在我們的移工流財移工久用流財方案裡面其實就針對委員講的其實你只要在6年以上的在台灣工作6年以上的那個移工他符合"},{"start":15198.352,"end":15224.915,"text":"這個方案的特定的條件他現在都可以留在臺灣那他的取得永居的時間就比照一般專業人才是五年所以現在就可以嗎?現在就可以現在已經有兩萬多個所謂的這些中介就是這些移工他取得用這個方案取得留在臺灣的資格了那他有限定條件嗎?"},{"start":15226.263,"end":15244.549,"text":"有一些限制條件,薪資還有技能的條件。薪資我想就變成說,如果僱主真的有心要去留下這個移工,對他來說重要,這僱主要去考量嗎?是的。那其他的條件,技術條件?有一些相關技術條件,要取得一些技術的證照吧。"},{"start":15245.691,"end":15252.997,"text":"對,因為看產業別跟社福而已。對,因為看產業別跟社福而已。對,因為看產業別跟社福而已。對,因為看產業別跟社福而已。對,因為看產業別跟社福而已。"},{"start":15266.263,"end":15290.027,"text":"然後技術條件的話他需要有一些我要問的就是說好你們的證照那是證照那這一些移工他們怎麼去取得證照這件事我們會輔導他輔導就是說如果因為如果產業企業他想要把他現在的移工留下來那我們會有相關的輔導他從事專人技人檢定等等的我們會協助這樣子對"},{"start":15293.587,"end":15321.583,"text":"最後再問一個因為你們的這個延攬外國人才誘因有一個叫做租稅優惠租稅優惠是針對首次來台的外國特定專業人士那這個首次的這個概念一直在實務上是很多人在爭議怎樣叫做首次如果他是說之前有來台灣工作過那他過了幾年後再次來這樣可以叫做首次嗎?對,是的,是的就不允許一定是要首次"},{"start":15323.003,"end":15344.448,"text":"對就不允許對是目前對我們要吸引新的外國對阿所以這個首次是怎樣叫做首次阿他就是如果他曾經已經來過就不能適用這個是啊阿這樣就會有一個問題嘛他可能之前來的時候是沒有這個對啊阿現在他想要說阿我要聘請他來阿卻沒有這樣了就是說這個首次"},{"start":15346.005,"end":15360.934,"text":"我要問的說你們這樣的一個租稅優惠訂了這個首次到底目的是什麼事實上是沒有必要的嘛只要他願意來願意留在台灣工作我覺得說既然有這樣的優惠那就讓他可以去進行這樣的優惠啊"},{"start":15361.834,"end":15389.596,"text":"只是優惠的時間點,你們把它抓緊一點,就是說到底優惠時間是多久。你一直在抓這個首次,變成說之前來過的,後來再來就不適用這一條。我覺得這樣也有它不合理的地方。我想這個是會涉及跟財政部的一個相關的協商。那我想委員的這個意見我們可以在我們下次修法的時候,我們把這個首次的這些定義什麼,我們再參考委的意見,我們再來做一個全盤的檢討。"},{"start":15390.236,"end":15412.917,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡易瑜委員好 來接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言我們就中午不休息那請各位同仁部位的長官如果肚子餓的可以自己先行用餐謝謝主席我想請一下副主委好 來請副主委"},{"start":15420.24,"end":15437.806,"text":"副主席好,非常感謝主席今天特別安排了外國專業人才延攬相關的一個法規的一個修改跟質詢那因為我在想說在整個台灣少子化之後那整個產業從數位化開始要轉成AI轉型的這過程當中的時候"},{"start":15439.006,"end":15454.416,"text":"人才肯定是最重要的一件事情臺灣能夠從70年前發展到現在人才也是一個很重要的一個部分我想請教副主委我們對於整個國際人才的延攬算不算是我們國家級的戰略計畫"},{"start":15455.436,"end":15469.494,"text":"當然是當然是是不是很棒喔聽到這麼肯定的一個回答那我想請問一下因為整個優秀人才高級人才的部分我看到所有那個我們所謂的高級專業人才"},{"start":15471.636,"end":15491.185,"text":"規劃國籍的高級專業人才認定標準裡頭,它分了好多個部分,包括科技領域、經濟領域、教育及學術研究領域、文化或藝術領域、還有體育領域等等。那我想請問,既然是我們一個戰略的一個政策的時候,請問我們有沒有單一窗口在服務這個部分?"},{"start":15491.465,"end":15512.236,"text":"有,我們設立了一個Talent Taiwan,這個戰衣服務窗口,然後我們會跟隨這個外籍專業人才來台,所要的服務我們有一站式的這種服務。他說一站式的服務是什麼,是怎麼樣的,你簡單描述一下。好,包括,我們要不要請我們處長來說明一下好不好。"},{"start":15514.799,"end":15521.662,"text":"謝謝委員關心有關我們延攬人才的服務我們是從他開始起心動念想要來台灣我們就有設立一個網站是叫做Talent Taiwan這個網站然後他有關他要來台灣的簽證的部分我們會讓他在這個網站得到所有的資訊那他如果想要來找到工作或者是還沒找到工作都可以直接來跟我們聯絡我們提供他相關的資訊來台工作的相關資訊"},{"start":15544.053,"end":15558.804,"text":"對,我們會協調相關部會,因為有一些……你們協調相關部會,所以說你們只是一個接案的一個窗口,諮詢的窗口,還是真的能夠一站式服務?因為一站式服務我們是覺得說它能夠從頭到尾喔?確定可以喔?好,細節這邊我之後再問喔,因為我們曾經碰過一個狀態就是說,就是有……"},{"start":15566.949,"end":15590.742,"text":"法國的一個專業人士他要到台灣來結果呢就移民署這邊對於所謂的專業人士他不知道他念的學校算不算是專業人士因為後來他們去問了教育部教育部也不知道因為教育部的回答竟然是說因為台灣人沒有在這所學校念書所以教育部不知道他其實是我們認"},{"start":15591.863,"end":15594.866,"text":"三、本院委員邱志偉等三、本院委員邱志偉等"},{"start":15614.927,"end":15629.203,"text":"所以我們是看到了所有的一個研究報告出來他們為什麼會覺得到台灣來也是很多外國人是他們考量的點第一個是整個台灣的整體環境還有另外就是台灣人的友善是他們想要來"},{"start":15629.924,"end":15635.385,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、本院委員王定宇等二、"},{"start":15659.65,"end":15663.393,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":15689.93,"end":15715.958,"text":"人才移工的問題肯定是一個跨部會的問題那我必須要講一個失戀移工的問題人數衝高啊八九萬人散居在我們這樣子的一個社會當中然後移民署這邊的時候呢我不知道是抓不到還是覺得不能抓因為有一個說法是說因為我們在很多產業缺工太嚴重了"},{"start":15716.898,"end":15732.708,"text":"所以移民署等於是沒有辦法真的盡全力去抓抓了之後就會影響到很多相關的產業很多農漁牧甚至於營造的相關產業副主委您可不可以針對這部分回應一下"},{"start":15733.749,"end":15760.269,"text":"其實針對這些私人移工的問題其實行政院從2021年開始其實已經召開多場的會議喔協調勞動部、內政部等有一些相關的措施啦然後包括因為會針對有一些移工的因為他會自然可能跟薪資低啊、勞動條件不佳啊還有僱主不合理對待等一些相關問題那各部會其實也提出了一個相對的"},{"start":15761.01,"end":15774.173,"text":"副主委,你回這部分其實我覺得更細節了因為我覺得現在整個失聯移工的問題的時候有一個很大的狀態因為缺工之所在、黑工之所在"},{"start":15775.492,"end":15794.524,"text":"因為有缺工所以就會有黑工要怎麼樣解決缺工的問題國發會這邊是不是能夠有更高的一個魄力因為像新的經濟部長去拜訪我們的時候他也很清楚講到台灣確實缺工問題非常的嚴重他甚至於直接提到了一個狀態旅遊業、飯店業的一個清潔相關的"},{"start":15800.447,"end":15821.815,"text":"人力他都覺得應該要開放可是勞動部在這部分肯定是不願意的所以國發會在這個部分是不是能夠佔據更高的位置能夠來做一個跨部會的一個協調來真正解決台灣缺工的一個問題至少你缺工的問題合理解決黑工的問題才不會這樣子的猖狂"},{"start":15823.241,"end":15827.906,"text":"有關於特別產業的缺工的問題其實都會在勞動部的相關會議裡面做討論當然我們國發會也會參與剛剛您提到的餐飲業的缺工問題目前正在討論當中"},{"start":15842.72,"end":15867.274,"text":"還有飯店業者等等那我這邊要提到因為整個產業發展其實很需要有一個移工聘僱率很清楚的給他們我希望國發會這邊能夠協調各部會很清楚的訂出這個各產業的一個移工聘僱率然後讓他們能夠定期來調整聘僱率的一個這樣的一個機制來這裡解決缺工的問題可不可以"},{"start":15867.814,"end":15897.383,"text":"好,我們儘量做評估。就這部分委員關心的各產業裡面的缺工的比例。好,謝謝。移工評估這部分,你們之後再跟本辦公室做一個細部的說明。好,謝謝。以上。好,謝謝曾振淺委員。接下來我們請柯之恩,柯之恩,柯之恩委員不在。何欣淳,何欣淳,何欣淳委員不在。我們最後請劉建國委員。好啦,一樣給你四分鐘啦。"},{"start":15902.209,"end":15902.49,"text":"國務副主委"},{"start":15912.022,"end":15918.385,"text":"臺灣的整個面臨人口結構這樣的問題,相關的因應作為基本上它的組織還是要國會,所以今天才會在基金委會來做這樣的一個會議。我想人口的結構快速轉變,這是對臺灣最大的一個挑戰。那這個上位的計畫到底是什麼?"},{"start":15934.773,"end":15963.51,"text":"我們至今沒有看過。當然,針對外國人才延攬的相關的這樣的一個計畫是在國會來做主責。我必須要跟邱志偉來做探討。今天前主委已經變秘書長了,所以他應該要面對這個事情還是一樣要有一定的延續性。我特別要提到有幾個面向來做一個參考。當英國快速結構轉變的時候,不管是從經濟、教育、文化、產業等等等,"},{"start":15964.33,"end":15970.275,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、"},{"start":15983.888,"end":16012.008,"text":"用簡單的數據講一下就好日本打70分的話我想我們也應該是及格可以打60分可以嗎?你確定?你看喔來日本擁有這個專業的技術的高端外國人才齁他是從截至目前為止2023年齁10月大約有60萬人比2018年的27萬左右足足增加的快一倍多了快一倍多那我們現在勒"},{"start":16013.857,"end":16032.434,"text":"小英在2021年的8月推動這個強化人口及移民的政策嘛這個專案我們在實施就剛剛淳于所講的齁這個Talent Taiwan的我們預計的設定目標是2030年要達到40萬沒有錯吧對不對好我們要在他現在已經達到60萬2023我們到2030才要達到40萬"},{"start":16040.276,"end":16054.275,"text":"我們40萬是根據我們評估到我們到2030年我們的人才跟人力的缺口我們估算出來的那因為我們跟日本的人口的那個"},{"start":16055.336,"end":16056.857,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":16085.69,"end":16092.954,"text":"3339人,3000多人。居留3年以上的才有261人。我不曉得為什麼這個比例如此之低。這數據你們應該有嗎?對。如果你按照這樣的話,要到2030年可以達到所謂的"},{"start":16105.421,"end":16134.642,"text":"延攬外國的相關的人才要達到40萬我覺得確實有很大的問題這是第一件事情請副主委等一下去答我第二個延攬國外人才來到台灣他絕對是散落在每一個縣市嘛這是不是這個事實嘛對不對那中央要來推動這樣的政策那目前為止有跟22個縣市哪一個縣市有具體合作讓他們比例較多的外國的人才留在這個縣市得到更好的照顧"},{"start":16135.482,"end":16162.139,"text":"更好的一個互動的環境嗎?有嗎?不然只有你中央在做那地方政府他對這個事情根本跟我們完全沒有連結那我們也完全跟地方政府沒有任何的一個互動的機制啊他們是散落在22個縣市裡面這不是很奇怪嗎?我再講一個,你再用日本的例子你看日本的新宿縣新宿區他們就有個地方自治條例他們有20多個委員"},{"start":16162.939,"end":16187.248,"text":"然後組成了這樣的一個跟住在新宿區的相關的外籍人士有定期的聚會有協助他們生活上的需求甚至於讓他們的文化可以融入到當地的新宿區去做最好的連結我們有嗎?你可以給我舉一個案例22縣市國防會跟哪一個縣市有做這樣類似的政策"},{"start":16188.792,"end":16188.912,"text":"國務委員報告"},{"start":16215.413,"end":16244.432,"text":"甚至僱委會等相關部會的確在跨部會的橫向聯繫上我們是有做到就如委員說的我們還是以中央政府的角度去我們跨部會是希望由那個部會去做往下跟地方的鏈結的確以國防委來說我們在那個層級裡面的確沒有直接對應到地方政府是透過各個主管的部會"},{"start":16245.233,"end":16249.899,"text":"他所實施的政策裡面,他去做這個中央跟地方之間的聯結。"},{"start":16263.655,"end":16278.365,"text":"對,如果都沒有的情況之下這些人要怎麼留在這個地方讓他們可以不會有五年的、三年的比例這麼低所以我們要達到2031年有40萬幾乎是不可能發生的事情所以這個未來的現在秘書長也要面對"},{"start":16280.006,"end":16302.698,"text":"你們做了很多地方創生為什麼也沒有去做這樣一個連結我真的不懂因為時間的關係我希望是不是可以全面的再去做一個思考對照其他國家人家有很好的這樣的執行的一個案例讓我們可以真正的讓這些外國人才我們可以留得住留得久嘛來幫助台灣的整體的結構快速轉變來做最好的因應嘛一個月"},{"start":16304.94,"end":16305.441,"text":"三、本院委員王定宇等"},{"start":16324.632,"end":16339.948,"text":"當機發言的委員除不在場者外,其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束。另外,有陳昭芝委員、張家俊委員、莊瑞雄委員、盧憲一委員、邱振軍委員、蘇清泉委員、林淑芬委員、陳昭明委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。"},{"start":16341.935,"end":16368.943,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本會。本日討論事項所列議程詢答結束並定期繼續審查。針對各提案委員或者是委員詢答的過程當中有對於法案所提出的建議也請相關單位一併列入考慮我們定期再做法案的審查。散會。謝謝。"},{"start":16371.769,"end":16375.008,"text":"一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員王定宇等一、本院委員"}]}},{"id":"15936","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15936","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dfb6a56bedfdb3c8158d85e2d08749d243be8d109af184be499a2cb125056a6c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-22","start_time":"2024-05-22T08:30:47+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:35:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":18253,"委員發言時間":"08:30:47 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一報告及詢答完畢二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關介述與書面答覆宣讀完畢"},{"start":1973.288,"end":1997.331,"text":"由於我們在場委員未達議決人數3人那我們待會再來確定議事錄那今天的議程是邀請文化部長李遠列席報告業務概況．並備質詢那麼首先先來介紹在場委員吳佩儀委員那我們來介紹與會的官員我歡迎新任的文化部部長李遠"},{"start":1999.673,"end":2017.599,"text":"我們的小野部長：文化部政務次長李敬慧：王石思政務次長：還有徐宜君常務次長：還有我們縱歸司的魏秋宜司長："},{"start":2020.876,"end":2028.379,"text":"陳登欽主秘林宏毅文創發展師江青松影視及流行音樂發展師吳依璇人文及出版師楊廷臻"},{"start":2047,"end":2063.312,"text":"藝術發展師周雅晶師長．文化交流師紀東陽代理師長．還有我們蒙藏文化中心高玉珍主任．人事處劉燦慶處長．主計處劉明金處長．資訊處莊順清處長．文化資產局陳季明局長．"},{"start":2072.674,"end":2097.407,"text":"還有我們影視及流行音樂產業局徐宜君代理局長我們國立藝術傳統藝術中心陳月宜主任國父紀念館王蘭生館長中正紀念堂周雅金代理處長歷史博物館王長華館長台灣美術館"},{"start":2105.937,"end":2129.393,"text":"陳鄺宜館長．台灣工藝研究發展中心陳電理主任．台灣博物館洪世祐館長．還有史前文化博物館蔡志仁代理館長．交響樂團劉璇勇團長．歷史博物館張榮志館長．台灣文學館林金力館長．"},{"start":2131.69,"end":2138.997,"text":"國家人權博物館洪世芳館長．鐵道博物館籌備處鄭明璋主任．兒童未來館籌備處曾聰邦主任國家漫畫博物館籌備處黃淑娥代理主任"},{"start":2157.751,"end":2176.545,"text":"行政法人國家表演藝術中心 郭美娟 卓爾米蘇海姆文策院 蔡佳俊 董事長國家電影及視聽文化中心 楚敏仁 董事長好我們 萬美玲委員到好我們介紹 洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2187.244,"end":2204.557,"text":"好那我們在場一決人數已達法定人數那我們來確定議事錄議事錄若有無疏漏跟錯誤之處若沒有的話那我們議事錄就確定好那我們接下來我們就請文化部呃李部長來進行報告報告時間6分鐘"},{"start":2213.656,"end":2240.578,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進還有我們的文化部的所有同仁大家好然後今天很榮幸在我擔任文化部長第三天就應這個教育委員會教育文化委員會來邀請就文化部的一些業務報告還有備詢我的心情其實很複雜因為我就是來自一個藝文界我做過電影也做過電視也寫過文學也做過戲劇"},{"start":2242.33,"end":2268.712,"text":"所以我非常感謝這一路以來的很多文化工作者的創意跟投入文化部是一個很年輕的部歷任過幾個文化部長我覺得他們都為這個部打下了非常好的基礎包括預算的爭取包括2.0的那個歷史建物的計畫等等計畫投入所以我"},{"start":2271.09,"end":2281.608,"text":"從這個基礎下去往下做我心情上還算是沒有太緊張然後台灣目前已經受到世界的矚目所以文化部作為一個台灣藝術文化的服務者"},{"start":2283.7,"end":2283.8,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2305.723,"end":2328.065,"text":"關鍵我覺得我們不應該是扮演一個指導者的角色因為台灣的民間文化非常蓬勃文化部的責任應該是提供服務跟協助所以我們應該不是由上而下的指導好以下我開始講我四個很簡單的概念我用非常白話文的方式講就是第一個我認為文化其實無所不在"},{"start":2328.806,"end":2355.757,"text":"他不是我們想像中只有戲劇電影文學其實生活的文化才是我每天早上起來十一住行會遇到的這個生活的文化所以我們要改變我們國人在環境中對生活有歷史感然後所以我覺得重建這個從點到線到面的重建歷史現場非常重要還有推動各區域性的文化保存也非常重要"},{"start":2357.644,"end":2371.499,"text":"重現台灣大歷史的現場也非常重要同時要健全法治推動有形和無形的文化資產創新與再造因為我覺得尤其是年輕人活在這塊島嶼上"},{"start":2373.1,"end":2373.68,"text":"﹚社區營造﹚社區營造對我來講印象深刻"},{"start":2395.293,"end":2415.103,"text":"如果台灣沒有社區營造這個活動的話我們對於社區的概念跟民間的概念都是一個還是由上而下的一個概念所以社區總體營造讓人才回到自己的家鄉然後扶持區域交流的平台然後每個社區按照自己的特色發展"},{"start":2416.54,"end":2432.854,"text":"結合文化平權人權教育然後最後凝聚每一個社會對他自己土地的歷史認同還有國家認同所以我會推動另外一個是國家議員方面國家議員台灣是一個多元的國家我們都知道"},{"start":2433.922,"end":2460.435,"text":"我們台灣為了推動這個多語言有原住民委員會有客家委員會推動母語那麼我們將持續從文化部角度我們要推廣是從家庭社會到學校不同的場域透過生活化跟現代化的面向落實語言復正計畫推行國家語言研究從打造語言友善平權環境著手"},{"start":2461.513,"end":2461.533,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":2480.882,"end":2481.022,"text":"我會鼓勵"},{"start":2501.892,"end":2522.529,"text":"我互相瞭解彼此的文化我們才能夠達成一個共榮另外我會繼續推動重建台灣藝術史透過台灣的藝術家的故事將文化教育的下閘跟繼續進行博物館美術館升級計畫強化智慧科技運用另外"},{"start":2524.131,"end":2545.38,"text":"議員提供與時俱進的博物館政策及法規制度：促進各管制資源共同享用但全民可以共同體驗另外我想重視一件事就是針對兒少世代影視作品跟兒童形塑自我認同的重要管道所以我覺得公共電視的兒少台的"},{"start":2546.52,"end":2575.246,"text":"開台是非常非常重要的因為在我過去的經驗中台灣的製作公司已經很少在製作兒少節目了所以這個動作是非常大的一步希望能夠培養台灣更多的能夠製作兒童節目的製作單位另外我也會很重視加強福祉台灣的童書跟繪本讓台灣的孩子可以讀到自己的童書跟自己的繪本然後幫台灣的童書跟繪本"},{"start":2576.243,"end":2594.757,"text":"推到全世界所以我提到一個文化幣文化幣可以降低年齡我算過一下如果我們降低到12歲的話我們增加54萬人大概6億左右這個如果"},{"start":2595.698,"end":2617.979,"text":"行政院同意的話我們就在明年的預算裡編列立刻給執行再來一個就是大家都知道的就是創造性的文化我想我在我的任內我一定會讓台灣的創造性的文化包括影視音圖文出版遊戲動漫設計還有文學提升提升台灣的文學"},{"start":2619.484,"end":2638.417,"text":"電影影視音動漫遊戲還有設計的競爭力創造一個IP的台灣然後影響全世界的台流經濟另外第4點就是一個傳播的文化我想文化是需要傳播的我將健全強化我們公共媒體"},{"start":2639.793,"end":2668.445,"text":"還有一個國際頻道增加文化傳播上的影響力我會支持公共電視各種經營的頻道因為公共電視從18年前開始有公管集團之後經過18年它已經的影響力越來越大了另外我盡量製作一些跨語言跟類型多元的節目然後台灣plus也是一個我們繼續發展能夠在海外收視知道台灣的各種情況的一個國際合作的一個"},{"start":2669.505,"end":2671.306,"text":"臺灣臺灣的創作者有他的出處"},{"start":2702.213,"end":2716.081,"text":"另外我希望我們的文化能夠跟全世界交朋友因為除了正式的搬交之外文化是最好能夠推到全世界跟不同人種交流的一個方法"},{"start":2717.213,"end":2743.792,"text":"那麼最近馬上來到了巴黎文化奧運就是我們向全世界介紹台灣文化的一個最好的時機在那個那一次機會中我們會有音樂、戲劇、舞蹈多種元素展現給國外的人看到我們台灣的文化所以結論就是文化永續世界台灣是我們的核心理念我們將以行動創新的方式繼續深耕我會希望可以跟其他部會"},{"start":2744.957,"end":2763.029,"text":"．"},{"start":2771.377,"end":2782.749,"text":"好謝謝 謝謝李部長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘不要使延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記節時間為上午10點30分"},{"start":2788.275,"end":2806.298,"text":"委員若臨時提案．請於上午10點30分前提出．並於本會委員吳佩奕委員質詢結束後．及進行處理．處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．原例不予處理好我們首先就請發言登記第一位萬美林委員質詢好謝謝主席我們有請李遠部長請李部長"},{"start":2823.034,"end":2829.339,"text":"本席在跟主席說要有請李遠部長的時候我一度想要說有請小野部長因為我們對小野這個名字大概比對李遠這個名字更熟悉一些"},{"start":2851.156,"end":2870.984,"text":"您剛也自己提過您是一個從這個過去文化創作者然後投入文化產業然後呢也推動台灣這個新浪潮電影運動也擔任過這個電視台的經理董事跟總經理那現在踏入了政壇喔那你可以說是走過了台灣文化影視產業的興起蓬勃跟衰弱在個五十幾個年頭喔"},{"start":2872.384,"end":2878.608,"text":"從過去這個老三台的電視到現在數位匯流的OTT時代我相信你應該對整個台灣影視娛樂的產業環境相當熟悉對嗎?"},{"start":2884.299,"end":2909.328,"text":"完全對完全對喔好很好那部長我想面對整個產業發展的數位這個化的轉型喔還有現在我們都知道這個韓流啦然後這個對岸的錄劇啦電影啊音樂的強勢崛起喔那在這個時間點要扛起這個整個臺灣文化跟影視產業圖的重大責任喔不曉得部長您知不知道臺灣現在整個碰到的困境是什麼您認為是什麼"},{"start":2911.349,"end":2920.649,"text":"其實台灣的困境第一個在就電影來講或者戲劇來講他的市場太小然後頻道太多然後這個國外的這個"},{"start":2922.312,"end":2941.374,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2941.544,"end":2966.84,"text":"好 那我想這個部長有看到這所謂的是市場面的問題所以呢我們就也要想想看在未來我們怎麼樣來協助這個他們有這個舞台有這個市場然後找到問題點對症效要來解決那但是呢我想我們知道問題點在哪裡這是最可貴的最重要就是如果今天我們主政不知道問題點在哪裡甚至於不覺得那個問題是問題我想這才是最可怕的地方所以剛剛提到這個市場需求"},{"start":2967.58,"end":2987.337,"text":"我想過去我們看到其實文化部其實有的時候其實用補助的方式來去解決問題或者是一直蓋很多的硬體然後做很多的文化園區展演空間不斷的蓋那最後這些我們看到很多都淪為蚊子館那甚至於我們還有說要發展什麼什麼國家隊我想很多的口號喊得漫天尬響或是很多的計畫非常大"},{"start":2988.878,"end":3009.523,"text":"但是最後是不但沒有打進世界盃﹖浪費很多的預算﹖也浪費很多資源﹖那誠如您剛剛說的﹖一直在談說這個預算也好﹖資金也好﹖但是我覺得怎麼樣對症下藥﹖這才是最重要﹖不然其實預算跟資源都會浪費掉﹖所以接著我想請教一下部長﹖您目前最常使用來觀賞節目的平台是什麼"},{"start":3011.067,"end":3011.087,"text":"對﹖好"},{"start":3026.109,"end":3048.141,"text":"根據本月5月15日資策會產業情報研究所公布的調查顯示國人觀看OTT串流影音已經達到49%的偏好度超越了非串流影音的44%而且推估在未來的三年可能就會過半了所以這個OTT的數位串流影音平台未來也是一個市場的趨勢這一點部長您同意嗎?"},{"start":3050.222,"end":3069.616,"text":"同意您自己曾經使用過或者是看過這個影音平台這個抖音嗎沒有您從來都沒有看過我很排斥好您排斥是您個人排斥嗎就是說你都沒有在任何的平台上去看過任何個抖音的這個資訊都沒有嗎如果有人傳給我我也蠻討厭的"},{"start":3073.632,"end":3073.792,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":3073.792,"end":3073.952,"text":"我知道"},{"start":3105.831,"end":3111.116,"text":"雖然您自己本身說您滿排斥,但不知道為什麼您要去做這個排斥,能不能說明一下?"},{"start":3112.264,"end":3136.977,"text":"我覺得抖音蠻明顯是一個認知作戰他讓我們所有接收抖音的人他缺少耐心看更長的片子然後缺少思考就像我曾經當一個學校校長我覺得現在年輕人在看電影的時候他幾乎沒有能力從頭看到尾他必須快轉但我們人類看東西都用很短暫的那個"},{"start":3138.118,"end":3153.239,"text":"委員在看的時候他幾乎沒有能力組織一個屬於自己的思考好部長您後段講的其實我非常認同但是前段如果您要說所有的抖音都是認知作戰這個是我也無法認同的所以我在想事實上我們也必須要去了解"},{"start":3154,"end":3165.245,"text":"對很多現在的現況我們才能夠知道就是到底我們要用什麼樣的方式才能制定有效的策略來協助將來我們在文化或者是相關的國際影音產業上面發展那所以呢其實我們來看根據2024年台灣數位趨勢的報告指出在這個抖音"},{"start":3174.229,"end":3195.772,"text":"雖然部長您很排斥但是我相信您一定看過了這個台灣用戶已經高達565萬人而且觸及率更達到全台灣網路使用者的26%而且很多的用戶其實是國中以下的少年族群所以依照目前這樣的狀況部長您本人是贊成我們完全禁用抖音這件事嗎"},{"start":3196.789,"end":3202.273,"text":"其實你問這個問題其實蠻難因為我覺得在台灣這個自由民主社會還有包括我們的法令好像很難完全禁止它但是可以局部的限制它我想其實部長我覺得跟您討論到這邊來其實我蠻能贊同你就是說你有自己的看法跟想法但是你也蠻務實去看整個現狀所以其實很多的事情禁止其實不是解決之道因為你禁完一個可能會再來一個"},{"start":3223.547,"end":3247.221,"text":"你永遠沒有辦法完全把它禁止掉的嘛尤其像您剛剛所說的現在又是一個民主的社會嘛除了我們自己如果沒有去下載但是呢你今天不管透過可能IG啊或是臉書啊都很有可能它會跳出來您還是會看到甚至於像您剛剛所說的朋友會傳給您嘛所以我想這個我們用另外一個角度來思考就像一場比賽當中我們是要去想一想怎麼去提升自己來去擊敗對手"},{"start":3248.422,"end":3271.203,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3271.203,"end":3301.203,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3301.323,"end":3325.094,"text":"你認為要怎麼去因應呢?我覺得這個問題對我來講其實70年早期的70年代台灣年產200部國片是因為沒有競爭對手我們就靠馬來西亞新加坡就可以收回來一半可是當香港起來當中國大陸電影起來的時候我們就被打敗了然後現在韓國的文化還有日本文化"},{"start":3326.38,"end":3346.032,"text":"包括動漫這麼吸引台灣的新少年我唯一的想法就是我們也要反過來從我們的動漫從我們的動畫從我們的電影還有文學裡有我們自己的特色包括造型否則那個造型怎麼看都是韓國的或者是日本的或者長得很像的"},{"start":3346.992,"end":3368.099,"text":"對我這個年紀來講是蠻感傷的因為我曾經也非常努力的在80年代希望我們台灣電影走上國際部長所以我想我們應該要思考的是因為這個OTT數位匯流的發展那我們這個台灣的影視產業也可以這樣來打入國際市場但是相對就像您剛剛所說的我們要面對的更多的競爭"},{"start":3369.319,"end":3390.789,"text":"所以我們除了需要針對市場有好的IP之外我們也需要引進更多民間的資金也需要有更有競爭力的OTT平台來配合所以過去我們的史澤部長曾經說過要組OTT國家隊讓台劇不要再受限於在國際這個平台您的看法是什麼要組這個OTT國家隊"},{"start":3391.869,"end":3410.201,"text":"OK,因為這個你問到重點了,因為我們台灣對於電影影視的輔導,輔導其實比較屬於藝術的,由文策院主導的是比較商業的,比較產業的,目前文策院正在進行的好幾個計畫,就是找到台灣幾個最大的影音平台,跟他們合作"},{"start":3410.981,"end":3433.37,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3434.87,"end":3440.522,"text":"部長您其實可以繼續講因為您可能第一次來聽到鈴聲如果這個主席沒有制止您還是可以繼續回答的OK"},{"start":3441.55,"end":3465.427,"text":"好現在我們文車園在做的事情很簡單就是動用到我們國發基金給我們的那100億去找到民間願意跟我們相對投資的幾種類型其中我知道可能最有效的就是ott平台比如中華電信好了或者是台灣大哥大或者遠傳我們能夠說服他跟我們一起投資一個新的"},{"start":3466.127,"end":3466.147,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":3493.257,"end":3510.421,"text":"部長,我想台灣當然影視產業還是有面對很多的危機但是我相信危機就是轉機尤其部長您上來看起來其實有做很多的功課那也有很多對未來的一個看法跟想法那看怎麼落實因為事實上現在是一個多角化商業模式的一個時代"},{"start":3511.021,"end":3532.832,"text":"不管電視網路OTT還或者是實體演出的全平台其實透過多角化的平台能夠行銷到國際龐大的市場那未來其實台灣的影視產業才有可能在不靠政府的補助之下並且脫離內宣文化去走出國際那我們希望其實部長你是從業界來的那過去也有這麼多的經歷那將來能夠正視這個問題來協助台灣影視產業從逆境中來突圍部長最後問您有沒有信心"},{"start":3539.793,"end":3557.228,"text":"我其實非常有信心你讓我多講一句話我看過非常多台劇最近這段時間看過非常多台劇也看過非常多韓劇日劇我覺得台灣是在一個各種文明相激盪的一個地方其實我們的每一個台劇最近我看到的他的人文"},{"start":3558.148,"end":3585.503,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3587.712,"end":3587.912,"text":"蕭美玲議員"},{"start":3606.618,"end":3606.898,"text":"我對於你的這個業務報告我還是有點失望"},{"start":3623.263,"end":3630.308,"text":"因為我看不到小野的理念不要忘記我是看你勇之聲長大的好不好所以我沒看到你的理念你幾乎就是把史哲的33頁改成濃縮成19頁當中像你最近提到你就說你要把華視希望能夠用民股把它買回來而且你是最能夠對華視的未來的轉型著力最多因為你曾經在那邊工作過可是我沒有在你的業務報告中看到任何的遺像我覺得這是"},{"start":3647.8,"end":3653.061,"text":"可能我們認為是你剛上來所以說你就只能把現有的部分來做一些深解這是我覺得比較可惜的地方而且呢我為什麼要特別提出來因為我很想看看你的想法過去的歷年來我們文化部被認為就是一個撒錢的大部所以說呢沒有看到太多令人耳目一新的文化的一個政策所以呢部長你會不會在被框架下面你會不會有覺得有有志男生的我希望不會有可是到目前為止你有嗎"},{"start":3680.175,"end":3695.896,"text":"報告委員我從以前到現在我都沒有政黨屬性然後我不管去早期在中央電影公司國民黨的電影機構裡做了8年或者在科文哲學部長你的講話快一點我問題很好"},{"start":3697.691,"end":3699.672,"text":"最近大家最紅的就是我們的泰勒斯在新加坡"},{"start":3713.379,"end":3740.216,"text":"他幾乎可以創造一週五億美元的一個收益那這不會是只是一個單一的團體這是整個新加坡請全政府之力來促成這樣的一件事情那目前來說台灣有一些的場地台灣有這樣子的一個經驗台北跟高雄都極力要來去做但這不是單一這個市政府就有辦法的所以說你認為新加坡用這個政府之力來做這件事情部長你要把泰德斯當作是你的工作項目"},{"start":3741.55,"end":3752.3,"text":"我還沒想到請泰勒斯來因為他未來兩年當中有可能到台灣來所以說你現在沒有想到他我提醒你好不好你可以把它當作是一個很大的工作目標因為這沒有文化部涉入的話很難是有辦法來去把它達成的那接下來呢我們來看一下因為呢我們賴總統特別在鄭楠榮的紀念會上說他要洗滌每一個人的人心好了我們就來看看"},{"start":3765.071,"end":3793.858,"text":"如何來洗滌我最近看到這一則新聞就是呢很多時候呢這個中正紀念塔大家認為是轉型徵要來轉型所以呢就傳出文化部在研議要撤掉這裡面的三軍儀隊這是你在你擔任部長之前所傳流出來的我不曉得是不是上任的部長把這件工作交接給你呢還是你們這些一級主管在沒有經過你允許之下就在放出這樣的一個訊息部長你可以做個澄清"},{"start":3797.096,"end":3804.084,"text":"而且呢過去也曾經有提過這樣的一個案件是最近又提出來當時的國防部長認為徹調不宜但是我們現在的國防部長已經換了人了已經換了顧立雄或許你可以內外來彼此配合這件事情會成行嗎其實中正經濟長對我來講齁"},{"start":3815.612,"end":3833.408,"text":"我一直覺得民眾的休閒跟擴大他的休息更重要我覺得你對於威權的看法什麼樣代表威權那個同樣的存在是不是威權儀隊是不是代表威權我覺得見仁見智我很不喜歡那種形式的東西所以您剛剛講這個我沒有聽過"},{"start":3835.891,"end":3848.842,"text":"很好,所以我也完全贊同不用把任何一個建築物賦予他太多意識形態的一個意義所以我只是提醒因為已經開始放出這樣一個部分所以目前為止不是你首要去做的一件工作就對了"},{"start":3850.243,"end":3869.949,"text":"接下來我們剛提到了為什麼我要特別提到因為大家都把中正經濟學場當作是轉型正義的一部分了那我們現在看看這個文化部的真正的正義到底在哪裡我們現在看這個臺文館好了我不曉得臺文館裏面部長你知不知道有限制性招標的理由限制性招標我不知道你們把這個"},{"start":3871.249,"end":3886.225,"text":"目前來說有多少的舞弊這是我等下跟你討論的因為他陷入了這個抄襲的風波也是給抄襲的廠商每年都用限制性的一個招標請問部長你知不知道他們提出限制性招標的理由是什麼"},{"start":3886.966,"end":3909.963,"text":"通常在我們公家機關限制性招標它還是一個公開對外我懂啊 這個都是在你們採購法裡面完全可以同意但是你是基於什麼樣的理由是基於專業的服務基於技術服務 資訊服務 社會服務這在你們的條文上面是基於哪一個部分您問得非常對 所以這件事情基本上我們已經把這前7年的招標過程交給政風處處理"},{"start":3912.125,"end":3916.166,"text":"你們交給政府去處理了我什麼時候可以拿到這樣的一個報告資料因為你看他連證據有的是偽照的而且我最終要提出來這個廠商從2017年到現在已經37項政府的一個補助光是從這個總金額是從460到1400多得到7000多萬的補助台灣管就佔了1259萬所以說呢你這個高層有關台灣的管理高層你認為誰該負責"},{"start":3941.909,"end":3962.651,"text":"我覺得這個事情我們已經經過處理過就是一個政風處直接去查這個整個這7年來的這個招標過程第二台風管本身也提出來要懲處這個懲辦人員另外首長副首副首長也提出自行處分所以我在這裡跟大家講我是第一我第一個來到"},{"start":3963.692,"end":3974.459,"text":"文化部就遇到這個問題這是等於送給我一個禮物因為文化部會發生這種抄襲事件對我來講非常痛心因為我們一直在強調我們台灣要有自己的IP"},{"start":3975.765,"end":3986.055,"text":"我們要自己的IP﹖這個IP包括剛剛我講到﹖電影也好﹖文學也好﹖動漫也好對﹖好﹖部長既然有政風粗我們希望他最後給我們一個非常清楚的部分因為我今天要特別提到的是不管是抄襲問題或是我剛剛所提到的這是限制性的問題抄襲包括這個主視覺當然每個人都說要去跟這個所謂的法國藝術家來做一個致敬"},{"start":3997.526,"end":3997.666,"text":"你是說哪一個?"},{"start":4018.338,"end":4025.204,"text":"這個他果然沒看過韓劇對完全沒有進入到這個我好像很難評論他有沒有抄襲總而言之這個東西見仁見智所以他剛剛就已經特別提到當我們認為有抄襲的時候他馬上這個單位就馬上告訴我們我們是在跟藝術來做致敬這也是沒有辦法說服我們的我們回到我剛剛說的這個什麼限制性的招標目前"},{"start":4039.517,"end":4045.96,"text":"真的引起最大的爭議就是1624我不管它的內容我只管它的一個經費部長你可以從這個地方來你們說沒有完全排擠其他補助但是我還是要指出來你們文化部動用兩個項目一個就是有關表演藝術的輔助推動你們編列的3億多但是呢你光是補助這個劇你就占了文化部的四分之一然後呢你去有關於你們占用另外一部分是傳統藝術的推廣計劃"},{"start":4067.83,"end":4068.831,"text":"沒關係我還是要部長回應"},{"start":4086.206,"end":4107.452,"text":"我先回到這個戲這個戲我沒有看過部長你針對他的預算經費預算經費的限制性招標的這個部分來我還是要把這個部分據我了解這個案子是從傳譯中心直接來跟文化部申請但他所用的費用不如外面所講的那樣子說他排擠了其他的費用"},{"start":4108.152,"end":4112.916,"text":"但是一組戲兩天來燒掉八千六百萬你不覺得這樣的一個製作你剛還特別提到我們的資源的分配你把文化部可以的部分你卻花了兩八千六百萬裡面來去做這樣的一個處理我覺得你從人文文人的一個腳步來看你覺得藝術團體每個人都渴望得到一些很多的補助你覺得為這樣的一個音樂劇燒掉這麼多的錢部長你覺得從這第一眼來看你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":4133.154,"end":4148.046,"text":"其實124是一個非常大的特例因為它配合這個台南建成400年以我個人做過戲劇的經驗我昨天晚上特別把這個整個看一遍因為我沒有看過這個戲的表演可是裡面非常多我的朋友"},{"start":4148.706,"end":4153.372,"text":"他們的反應都非常的驚訝如果你文化部的經費可以提供給其他人經費有這麼多我完全同意我現在只告訴你當你在有限制的經費之下面分配這麼多的部分然後收到這麼多的錢然後呢"},{"start":4164.785,"end":4171.71,"text":"最重要的是他還是屬於一個限制性的一個招標所以本席時間的關係我還是強烈的希望部長你可以在最快的時間當中呢可不可以把這個1624所有的花費的項目如果這麼樣子覺得沒有排擠到不然上網公告然後呢三天之內提供評審委員的名單我覺得我們還是要在這個部分你們還是要對查清楚我們做得到所有的經費什麼花費然後整個過程如何"},{"start":4192.185,"end":4196.027,"text":"對你上網公布這些經費因為有太多人質疑這個部分然後有關於這個評審的審查的名單私下交給我來做這樣的處理因為我們自己內部也對這件事情有點覺得被誤會很好啊就趕快來做一些澄清啊最重要是這個地方裡面有非常多的其他的文化團體是對這件事情是很有想法的"},{"start":4215.197,"end":4227.967,"text":"這些都是你很關切的這些文化團體還是一句話當你經費有限的時候你應該做最好的一個分配而不是獨宗說這個很好你要是有這麼上百億的經費上百千萬的經費你要多做這個我沒有意見更何況兩天8600萬所以我本期強烈要求我需要把這個所有的細項全部可以告訴我一下"},{"start":4235.913,"end":4263.166,"text":"謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":4264.363,"end":4270.145,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝克森昭偉部長請回好我們接下來請洪孟凱委員主席謝謝麻煩請李遠部長好有請李部長部長好"},{"start":4293.035,"end":4317.962,"text":"部長您是文化人而且非常大家都知道您也叫小野如果說之後有人稱你小野部長您介意嗎我無所謂因為在台灣已經蠻多叫小野的小野當然是很典型也很形象鮮明但本席先提剛剛我覺得蠻特別的走過了那麼多部會聽過那麼多部長的業務報告"},{"start":4322.776,"end":4350.689,"text":"包含之前的史哲部長之前的李永德部長但您是第一位報告完之後臺下的這些同仁幫你鼓掌的所以我也希望不要說我們的這個文化增強了馬屁文化我想這樣不好再來之前也有媒體報導講說小野化不要那我不知道說您看到這個小野化的部分好像也有點汙名您自己怎麼看"},{"start":4351.992,"end":4352.713,"text":"我從頭到尾大概創作50年齁"},{"start":4376.988,"end":4396.442,"text":"來﹗"},{"start":4396.582,"end":4414.008,"text":"今天你自己之前有講過是說這個文化禮經的部分你剛也特別業務報告紙本裡面沒有寫但是你口頭有講說希望能夠推動從現在的16歲到22歲然後往下延伸到12歲對不對這是你的理念跟想法"},{"start":4415.258,"end":4435.808,"text":"13岁13岁因为您刚口頭講的是說到12岁對那您剛的用意是說希望能夠推廣童書啊台灣的童書不只是童書我覺得我們的小孩從小學三四年級之後就進入到另外一個領域就是他幾乎不看書了他也沒有耐心看電影了他完全投入了打電動"},{"start":4436.929,"end":4455.846,"text":"然後看剛剛講短影音所以我覺得文化要向下扎根的話文化幣是一個前面已經推動一段時間發現效果很好的一個東西本席這一點也是想要提出來就是說歷任的文化部長就有提到就是說雖然文化扎根都非常重要本席也非常認同"},{"start":4456.767,"end":4470.316,"text":"本期完全認同是說文化的力量就是能夠壯大我們國家的力量這點過去到現在我都支持但是大家會認為是說這就是有點傻逼的一個嫌疑啊怎麼樣能夠擺脫這個傻逼的嫌疑而不是只是"},{"start":4471.587,"end":4494.289,"text":"就是不是只是推出這樣的一個政策來討好民眾這邊你怎麼看這個不算啥比如在歐洲很多國家是有這種這種文化的國家的年齡層有含瓜到那麼廣嗎從一開始我們講說文化必是所謂的成年禮金到22歲22歲往下延伸到16歲16歲之後新任部長在上任之後再往下12歲"},{"start":4496.274,"end":4517.58,"text":"每一任部長上任之後只是不斷的把那個範圍給擴大但是文化禮金或是所謂的文化幣的部分也層出不窮有一些濫用的一個方式包括說之前有傳出說美容美甲店也可以收文化幣包括說文化幣也可以買一些相關東西到時候還要文化部出來認證說文化幣禁止買相關東西"},{"start":4520.426,"end":4539.143,"text":"這個東西其實我覺得我們在限制上買什麼東西這個透過我們文化幣使用之後我們可以滾動的來討論所以推動往下延伸到13歲因為在法國大概11歲在法國11歲就可以領取台灣想要確認一下您是不是在今年一定會推動"},{"start":4539.944,"end":4558.691,"text":"今年年底的總預算會送出來明年我希望如此因為我算過一下大概要增加大概50萬人然後大概6億左右我再一次強調他不是傻逼因為我覺得台灣的教育把小孩子當小孩子從來沒有把小孩子當大人"},{"start":4559.531,"end":4574.218,"text":"提早給他接受文化藝術這是台灣一直的問題沒有問題部長你提出來政策你為政策負責所以我們會來檢視你的政策但是這是你所提出來第一個首要的政策就對了沒錯"},{"start":4575.618,"end":4590.946,"text":"再來 既然講到電影本席也非常喜歡看電影之前你當然也有虧過別人說不懂文化要常看電影那其實我覺得剛剛你跟委員來討論的時候並不是講到抖音我聽您的講法您講的是說"},{"start":4594.292,"end":4614.923,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4615.043,"end":4636.237,"text":"有什麼五分鐘看完一部電影七分鐘看完一部電影這可能都跟您的理念有相抵觸之處沒錯包括說我也發現很多人是一部小說用嘴巴講的嘴巴講要很快講完所以我們已經失去了沒有深層的思考沒有深入的判斷沒有看到原文原作"},{"start":4645.583,"end":4673.652,"text":"剛剛講的那種都是一個生活裡的短短的一個娛樂而已它不是一個文化那這樣子部長您的責任非常重大因為你變成是說要跟現在所有市面上所有短影音所有這一些影片來相抗衡流行總是會過去的我覺得我不是要相抗衡我只能做我能做到的部分比如說我剛才講到文化幣當我們把文化幣放下去它要怎麼使用你能做到的部分我們來談一談來下一頁"},{"start":4675.836,"end":4699.961,"text":"之前你有提過少了中港電影的金馬獎該是告別的時刻了所以現在要跟金馬獎告別嗎金馬獎越做越好為什麼要告別金馬獎其實你看齁金馬獎存在的台灣的電影的重要性從他的現在增加那個電影劇本比賽金水獎比賽所以當初2019年你講告別是要怎麼告別"},{"start":4701.372,"end":4706.117,"text":"這是您的標題啊這個文化週報小野不是你啊還是這是另外一位當然是我啊是啊那2019年的小野說要跟金馬獎告別"},{"start":4718.795,"end":4719.536,"text":"該式告別的時刻"},{"start":4735.157,"end":4755.264,"text":"完全認同所以本席不只要求文化部不能把金馬獎廢除本席更認為說金馬獎是華人世界的指標更應該海納百川讓所有人都覺得說來參加金馬獎來得到金馬獎是一種光榮是至高無上的榮耀你認同吧完全認同"},{"start":4757.148,"end":4783.053,"text":"最後既然要講到電影既然要說你要說長篇的電影本席很認同啊所以我們要怎麼樣鼓勵大家能夠進電影院看電影或是說鼓勵大家進現場看表演那其中就有了我們之前討論沸沸揚揚的黃牛因為黃牛主來很多本來想要進去看表演現場看表演的人沒有辦法買到票而造成說黃牛持續的加價"},{"start":4784.013,"end":4809.351,"text":"那之前這就技術性層面喔可是我覺得新任部長就應該要有能力來解決這些技術性層面的問題三個禮拜前文化部次長在這邊我們詢問就說文創法創法之後反而很多黃牛轉型為詐騙連票都沒有變成說我們修法要對付黃牛反而會讓黃牛變成是詐騙集團另外還有變種黃牛就是榜物販售"},{"start":4810.592,"end":4822.518,"text":"我票用原價賣,但是你要買一支麥克風,麥克風一支賣兩萬塊,送你兩張原價的票那當初有講是說要找相關的單位研議,請問現在有沒有相關的辦法?所以明後天能夠提出來一個有效解決的方法?"},{"start":4835.284,"end":4853.874,"text":"這個其實針對這個黃流的事情其實已經推出非常非常多次的那個方法但是它的演變就像詐騙起來一樣對沒錯三個禮拜前當然那個時候還是在新就任政府交接的時候可是行政沒有空窗期行政沒有休息期啊"},{"start":4854.758,"end":4879.678,"text":"那我們現在講說你一個月內要提出相關的辦法眼看一個月就要到了怎麼樣能夠告訴國人說我們有心能夠解決這個問題並且有效嚇阻黃牛我想說我們盡快的再提出一個書面跟您報告一下什麼時候可以就一個月多久一個月不是你當初承諾一個月現在時間到了本期是在追進度"},{"start":4881.823,"end":4906.511,"text":"是不是還沒有開會到?您還沒有掌握到?沒關係,部長您才上任第二天嘛,沒有問題很多事情方方面面本席只想提醒這件事情一樣重要就代表是您剛剛注意要大家進劇場進電影院看劇看表演都要注意到這個部分一個禮拜內跟本席書面資料可以嗎?可以嗎?OK可以好最後部長"},{"start":4908.75,"end":4932.346,"text":"來下一頁2008年你呼籲企業要贊助有一些譬如說像長篇小說創作等等的部分我想這可能是針對作家其實本行業很認同我們之前也有修過相關的法令就希望是說企業能夠幹嘛減稅來提供給一些文創公司來去做誘因讓企業真正能夠因為說實在話"},{"start":4934.616,"end":4959.637,"text":"一般的獲利盈利的這個廠商他如果說沒有足夠用意他也不會想要去資助但是如果說你有一些誘因譬如說減稅你就可能會讓這一些大企業來資助小說家資助藝文創作者資助表演團體資助文創公司那我們之前來提出的都是比較針對公司的部分個人的部分以及說能不能加強這個力道"},{"start":4960.558,"end":4976.739,"text":"您現在還是一樣的主張嗎?對,因為我最近參加一個小型的活動發現韓國的繪本遠遠超過台灣原因也很簡單韓國的大企業直接一家投資一個繪本作家這個觀念在台灣還沒有辦法做到他們怎麼做的?"},{"start":4978.052,"end":5004.763,"text":"我覺得讓我們的企業本身對於台灣的文化這件事情覺得很重要的除了我們用ESG文化的認同嘛 對不對那還有一定是有政策的鼓勵比如說也許企業能夠給他提升企業正向的形象以及企業給他資助之後可能有一些減稅的誘因是不是這樣一個推力一個拉力嘛沒錯這兩種同時要讓他願意投資文化"},{"start":5005.728,"end":5034.066,"text":"好,非常高興在第一天的這個部長的專案報告裡面有聽到這樣的一個說法本席將來也會推動我們相關的企業在支柱我們不管是藝術家表演團體公司都會有更強大的誘因能夠減稅提升正面形象也請部長一定一起支持讓我們營造更好的藝文環境這樣可以嗎?可以謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":5036.732,"end":5041.154,"text":"好謝謝謝謝侯孟楷委員部長請回我們接下來請羅廷偉委員主席謝謝有請部長好有請李部長部長好你好部長那我就直接稱呼你小野部長好"},{"start":5066.873,"end":5093.172,"text":"新的新政喔想必部長也有很多的一個報復跟施政的藍圖但是我看完今天的這個業務報告內容喔心中不免有個疑問想跟你請教一下今天的內容邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況所以今天這一場到底是文化部的報告還是李遠部長的報告還是小野部長的報告這個施政藍圖業務報告為什麼我要這樣說"},{"start":5095.874,"end":5112.108,"text":"今天的書面報告裡面有高達99.1%的內容跟3月27史澤部長業務報告的內容一樣像推動台語的主流化公視兒少開台重建台灣藝術史振興出版產業"},{"start":5115.376,"end":5138.355,"text":"如果這是文化部的業務報告那好像誰來做部長都差不多但如果底下因為底下的有一群職業文官會做事他們可以維持業務運作部長只是掛名那今天這個業務報告我們希望他能夠論述到是部長您未來的一個抱負跟他的一個藍圖很顯然的這份報告我看不到"},{"start":5139.366,"end":5159.158,"text":"有您的概念跟未來的抱負當然有一些我有從所謂的新聞包括文化幣向下延伸這是你的一個想法我們想要認識想要了解的包括剛剛孟凱委員他也想知道金馬獎一次你的態度所以我們想更認識的是小野部長"},{"start":5159.938,"end":5175.772,"text":"您個人在未來的一個想法看法以及準備要做的而不是原本3月27號本來文化部就要做的事情今天又再一次的在這邊跟我們再講一次所以部長可以談一下你心中的一個抱負跟藍圖嗎我覺得"},{"start":5179.81,"end":5191.143,"text":"我心目中覺得台灣的文化包括剛剛講到因為我自己經歷過電影電視還有文學你如果要用簡單的方式講我的抱負的話我覺得台灣這個"},{"start":5193.923,"end":5219.375,"text":"經過歷史的一種撞擊出來的文化我希望所有台灣人會對自己的文化感到驕傲而不是覺得很自卑要去追求韓國日本從外來的文化得到一種滋養你如果問我的抱負是這個我就只有這個抱負但是根據你剛剛講的那個業務報告的確是那我一點一點會把我想要做的事情再慢慢讓大家知道"},{"start":5221.172,"end":5247.084,"text":"好,上任才兩天嘛當然我們不能怪你但是我要講的就是說文化部我們認識了因為這幾個月我們都在了解但如果這份報告裡面有太少有關於您未來想做的我覺得那我們就沒有必要去再做這麼多的一個溝通了那因為我就是跟以往的使政部長都差不多嘛那所以包括剛剛我覺得聽到你這樣講"},{"start":5249.009,"end":5264.647,"text":"你是一個廣義的一個創作家算是一個創作家所以對黃牛我也很重視所以我更希望包括剛剛你說一個月份可以看到書面報告黃牛的處理方法這部分我也想要了解也麻煩你讓我也知道會後的相關資料"},{"start":5266.169,"end":5284.365,"text":"那之前我也有在這裡質詢過包括我們企業應該要協助不管是繪本也好或者是相關的文化產業也罷我在這邊提到我們的孩子接觸到的是國外的繪本國外的卡通國外的電影"},{"start":5285.186,"end":5314.175,"text":"所以我在這邊也提過包括我們最近孩子一直在接觸到的蘑菇蘑菇這一類的在地的影音繪本我們能夠加強所以我也希望你的態度展現出來未來能夠在這個文化部分能夠給予企業更多的鼓勵更多的一些獎勵鼓勵他們要來幫助我們在地的文化產業這部分我有聽到你剛剛的回答我感覺到有一點欣慰我們也希望能夠看到實際的作為但是我還是要跟你說文化部"},{"start":5315.339,"end":5337.168,"text":"投資都慘賠拒絕國發基金當成文化部的小金庫這件事情你有掌握到嗎我想我稍微知道我想專案投資73案投資的績效超級差扣掉民間投資的錢全部都賠償這些都是國人納稅錢幾乎都賠千萬以上我舉幾個例子有賠823萬有賠897萬"},{"start":5341.874,"end":5367.271,"text":"有賠1437萬有賠1782萬1782萬還不是賠最多的本席留一點面子給文化部給部長不要點破專案投資是文化部所獨有的一個政策這沒有什麼不好我們支持也支持要振興地方的產業我們台灣的文化但是我們要防止他濫用我還是要再說一次投資有賺有賠但是每一個案子都是慘賠"},{"start":5368.812,"end":5393.553,"text":"我們就會擔心會不會有濫用的問題之前時哲部長回覆我一個電影跟IP作品的發行他的回收時間是長的部長時哲部長根本是鬼扯以電影來說票房還是最重要的數據難道不是嗎部長是我想不是請不然請部長能夠舉出電影票房不好但總回收很好的電影嗎你有想像到嗎"},{"start":5397.113,"end":5422.45,"text":"應該說有票房票房不好但總回收很好的電影票房不好總回收很好的電影我想是少數啦對對有一些台劇少數啦對不對但我不希望整個都是慘賠你要跟我講用少數的案例我相信還是一樣的問題那我想部長殺青是什麼意思"},{"start":5423.942,"end":5428.744,"text":"我們有殺青的時間跟通過投審會的時間以及電影上映的時間已經拍完的片子國發基金投資的決策邏輯是什麼?文化部過投審會有人看過飾片嗎?"},{"start":5455.557,"end":5479.807,"text":"其實我們每一個補助的案子他都按照他的原來的進度然後有一個評審在看 有一群評審在看我想經過投審會的時間上映時間喔只有一天你有看到我的數據如果有錯你可以糾正我如果已經拍完的片都沒有人看過視片投審會怎麼決定要不要投資部長你有沒有覺得很奇怪"},{"start":5483.615,"end":5504.262,"text":"其實電影這個行業政府補助電影這個行業電影基本上的變動拍完後再後製再延個半年一年它是一個變動很大的行業它不是一個你想像中可以按照你的時間剛好完成它有時候要趕上這個補助可能最後一天政府可能通融它讓它過"},{"start":5505.402,"end":5531.503,"text":"因為台灣拍電影的基本上都是一些小公司然後它的資金結構也不太健全我想這點的確是我們整體生態的問題我想很辛苦這些地方的文化產業我們要支持我還是絕對支持文化部支持帶動推動我們台灣的文化內容發展但文哲院我覺得在這樣子的一個做法中一天"},{"start":5532.323,"end":5547.617,"text":"還是會讓民眾會擔憂我們到底有沒有經過更審慎的去思考我想這部分我們點出來讓我們不說的難聽我們希望能夠在這個過程當中更小心翼翼的去使用每一筆人民的納稅錢可以接受嗎"},{"start":5548.177,"end":5567.929,"text":"可以啊好第二個成立南部的營運中心南部辦公室效益何在文策院在南部辦公室根據文策院所提供資料成立南部辦公室的目的是為推進台灣文化內容產業的均衡發展作用於台灣產業各區中長期的發展所需資料"},{"start":5568.709,"end":5593.138,"text":"我想部長這聽起來齁這個目標很偉大啦但是設一個南部辦公室在高雄那中部辦公室可能也需要喔中部辦公室中部的文化中部的產業也需要推廣也需要這麼宏大的一個目標可不可以中部也設一個這件事情我還沒有搞懂欸為什麼要南部設一個中部設一個這個我還沒搞懂我是不是請蔡董事長解釋蔡董事長"},{"start":5595.9,"end":5607.44,"text":"我會讓他時間解釋啊但我的意思是說你要推廣文化就要在南部設立就可以推廣代表你有這麼宏大的一個目標嘛設立這個就可以推廣那中部也要啊"},{"start":5608.496,"end":5637.794,"text":"那如果你說南部一個中部一個那北部一個就夠啦台北文化部就可以處理整個台灣的文化那為什麼一定要特別南部再一個我想聽起來很偉大但是設一個辦公室到底有沒有必要性那為什麼南部辦公室要設在高雄屏東不行嗎台南不行嗎我想剛剛講的一些業務一定要專門設一個辦公室才能做這讓大家真的感受到問題在哪裡剛剛講的那些業務台北不能做"},{"start":5639.281,"end":5657.86,"text":"我想部長我們看跑步影3根據合約租約從去年9月1號開始7個月過去了為什麼到現在還沒有人員進駐這個好像是文策院內部的董事會在提這個我完全不知道這件事情董事長請"},{"start":5660.882,"end":5687.252,"text":"不好意思 我幫部長回答一下這是文策略內的業務南部辦公室的成立其實因為我們使用博二的共創園區二區使用之道還沒拿到我們還無法正式的在營業那上個月剛剛拿到了目前為止我們所編列的人員也還沒有對外正式在recruit我們只有沿用文策略內部的一名員工用最精簡的人力那未來如果委員覺得中部有可能來設辦公室我們會積極審慎的評估跟考慮"},{"start":5689.853,"end":5712.567,"text":"董事長那我想請問一下租業從去年9月1號開始7個月過去了租金有算嗎?租金要算因為要裝潢阿對所以使用執照還沒有拿到嘛沒辦法進租對不對所以每月租金10萬7千100元7個月空屋擺在那國人納稅錢已經被浪費掉74萬9千700元當然我們說裝潢啦我們有沒有跟這個房東都講一個裝潢期"},{"start":5714.92,"end":5741.363,"text":"正常我們都會跟房東講吧是我們各種談判跟高雄那邊文化局都有談過那事實上其實我們所談的discount是從整個的房租優惠談起啦所以你覺得這個十萬七千有優惠有優惠有優惠是470萬的裝潢費目前裝潢進度在哪目前裝潢完畢裝潢完畢裝潢完畢好那我想死照都還沒拿到就趕裝潢萬一他沒拿到死照勒"},{"start":5742.946,"end":5744.446,"text":"那因為現在已經拿到了,謝謝委員關心"},{"start":5770.791,"end":5797.866,"text":"那我想這都是我們所關心的一個項目啦但我還是希望這個文策院中部辦公室臺中中章頭是不是能夠考慮一下中部辦公室請委員多多給一些意見我們自己選區嘛包括我們的臺中國漫館包括我們臺中文化部以及我們的那個酒廠復興路的酒廠文化酒廠這都可以做一個相關設置相關來探討再多跟委員討論好不好好"},{"start":5798.746,"end":5821.153,"text":"好那最後剛剛好像有其他的委員有提到這個文學館抄襲的事件我想再一次請問一下部長請問一下最後這個館長說要負責是怎麼負責這件事情我們已經進行是下台嗎我不會這麼用這麼粗暴的語言說我要他怎樣怎樣但是我必須跟大家講我絕對不會那個"},{"start":5824.479,"end":5852.608,"text":"讓這個責任只推到這個第一線的這個職員對但是我也沒辦法很粗暴的告訴你說我要換掉誰換掉誰我覺得這樣講好像只是一個誠意識之快對畢竟我我再沒有當文化部長之前我跟這個台文館也接觸過好幾年當評審我覺得裡面的很多員工都蠻優秀的所以我們我雖然知道抄襲這些事情是一個非常不應該的而且是很嚴重的但是我也不會因為這樣子就"},{"start":5853.649,"end":5878.697,"text":"沒有把清楚事情搞清楚之後做出懲處但是我答應委員我立刻會做出決定我想我不認識這個館長我跟他也沒有任何的恩怨拿下他讓他下台對我來說一點幫助也沒有我們要的也不是任何一個人下台我們要的是負起責任改善這個問題未來不要再有發生這才是國人想看到的"},{"start":5879.477,"end":5893.644,"text":"今天把別人鬥倒對我們來說不會有任何加分今天把你烤倒對我來說我不會有多好我們要的是文化越來越好台灣越來越好我們一起努力這樣可以嗎謝謝當然是好謝謝好謝謝羅廷偉委員部長請回那我們接下來請葛如君委員"},{"start":5916.668,"end":5920.731,"text":"謝謝主席有請文化部李遠部長有請李部長"},{"start":5931.243,"end":5955.233,"text":"感謝部長,您是我的偶像所以有機會在這裡跟您做互動覺得很感謝但是最近政府機關裡頭發生了一些超人特工隊的案件這個超是疑似抄襲的超第一件是前幾天剛舉行的520就職大典根據府方的回覆這個典禮主視覺的設計費"},{"start":5958.865,"end":5962.248,"text":"請問一下部長您覺得36萬單位是台幣還是美金36萬是美金嗎不會吧你相信是台幣嗎你覺得我們4年一次的典禮的主視覺總計劃案的設計費2300萬裡面竟然只有36萬去畫這樣的一個主視覺的圖您相信嗎"},{"start":5986.674,"end":6005.347,"text":"這是我們台灣的設計水平嗎?希望慢慢搞清楚齁 這個真的太重要了齁昨天才有的政黨說民主已死今天民主還活著所以我們今天可以在這裡互動對話但是我們的設計是不是已死啊相信台灣的設計沒有已死齁"},{"start":6006.568,"end":6024.93,"text":"我想問這樣子的一個圖像我可能還要講一下你才會知道哪一邊是哪一邊右邊是那個儀式的原創者左邊是我們的典禮用的視覺假設您是國外圖的創作者您會不會覺得有一點抄襲的可能"},{"start":6027.856,"end":6040.182,"text":"其實抄襲的認定在法律上非常複雜我知道你會這樣回答沒有關係所以我剛剛先問您設身處地您還不願意也沒有關係我慢慢培養默契那我們依據廠商說明這個貓狗徽章的設計這個是以公私購入的商用授權的素材庫來做的為此我們還向總統府來調閱資料說這個16屆的總統這個副總統候選人的這個典禮絕標金額2350萬"},{"start":6057.671,"end":6062.795,"text":"不要講剛剛那個只有36萬徽章的部分不屬於政府採購的標案這邊產生了很多的疑問請問部長認同廠商的說法用免費素材我們剛剛講36萬他說他還用了一些素材那這個貓狗的說是免費的素材在製作服務文化部所謂的文創設計嗎我先問這個問題但我先補充您一下我最崇拜的台灣電影的導演楊德昌"},{"start":6083.951,"end":6099.096,"text":"他最後一部電影一一這個取名是叫道生一一生二二生三三生萬物道是最難的道生一也是很難的原創是最重要的我看到您微笑我相信你很理解請問這樣算原創嗎如果是我的標準我從以前到現在我都很希望從最原始來第二都是來自自己如果用我的標準"},{"start":6112.543,"end":6116.447,"text":"我不知道算不算原創因為要是我會自己重新花一次狗一次貓"},{"start":6117.878,"end":6141.525,"text":"好 我想沒關係 這個謝謝您非常誠懇的答覆我想我們也知道了部長還是很尊重原創我還是要非常感謝那我想這個部長的行政約例其實也很豐富那不屬於政府採購得標的即便廠商免費提供我們可以隨便採用嗎我問林總有就職典禮這麼重要的活動這個徽章他說不屬於政府採購標案應該可以隨便發放嗎"},{"start":6145.408,"end":6149.676,"text":"這個應該可以回答 這沒有主觀的問題嘛我在我的文化部 我希望沒有這種事情"},{"start":6151.533,"end":6179.912,"text":"那這樣文化部有點打臉總統府沒有關係啦我相信你們不是這個意思那我們來看第二個案例超人特工隊的第二支與文化部更為相關的因為你剛剛說那是總統府我們來看一下文化部的這個巴黎文化奧運台灣館的主視覺用了一個叫emoji的東西就表情符號跟apple的系列iOS的系列的emoji高度相似疑似有抄襲的可能而且該案正好跟520的主視覺設計師"},{"start":6182.294,"end":6187.898,"text":"他應該是一個幽默吧應該是一個幽默的 有點有趣的有沒有版權有沒有版權"},{"start":6207.998,"end":6225.57,"text":"這就是文化部官員的表情面面相覷我可以告訴你們除了開源的emoji以外emoji的版權屬於設計這組符號的供應商以巴黎文化奧運台灣館的主事節為例假如作者真的有使用或參考apple的像不像"},{"start":6228.936,"end":6247.532,"text":"分得出來嗎?字額又太小左邊是Apple右邊是文化部產出的成果再來左邊是Apple右邊是文化部產出的結果如果真的有使用或參考Apple的Emoji必須諮詢Apple法律部門並申請表情符號的使用授權"},{"start":6248.473,"end":6248.854,"text":"目前沒有"},{"start":6262.605,"end":6279.618,"text":"很好 謝謝您的誠懇答覆此案其實是民眾陳情請文化部就本案Emoji的授權請醒於一週內以書面方式回覆本席辦公室否則真的是設計要以死了最後一個案子還沒完超人特工隊還沒完剛剛很多人已經問了"},{"start":6282.06,"end":6306.755,"text":"那剛剛部長也很誠懇的答覆我們不應該推給第一線那我直接問您一個問題部長能不能在此是否應該先代表文化部向原會師表示歉意不要推給第一線嘛沒有問題我願意代表文化部向原會師道歉我也願意向所有其實非常期待那個台灣有自己原創的人道歉"},{"start":6308.695,"end":6331.224,"text":"謝謝部長接下來還是希望除了道歉以外要完成清查還有沒有台灣館的相關案例有涉及抄襲第二審查的流程未來能不能禁止這方面的事情再次發生另外有沒有行政的疏失也希望部長不是只有道歉我相信您的行動力也是很強的我們一起來努力再來還沒有結束請教一下部長這個我們就不放了剛剛都講過了"},{"start":6336.086,"end":6361.067,"text":"這個影像我相信部長應該可以理解我真的是您的粉絲啦這個影像我真的是看到在投影片上我都感動會哭接下來要請教一下部長您是台灣新電影的重要推手之一那我也在無數的演講我自己的官方網站裡都隨時都放著楊德昌導演的電影對我的啟發那您也是這些導演的背後的一個非常重要的一個推手"},{"start":6361.767,"end":6382.359,"text":"那1980年代的時候您在一個社會氛圍非常嚴厲的情況之下你們竟然能夠一起團隊的去創造了台灣新電影的時期這個您曾經甚至有說過一句名言作品本身具有實驗性和原創性如果在票房上失敗了就算要拍8部拍10部都值得"},{"start":6382.779,"end":6401.976,"text":"如果因為模仿抄襲而獲得的利潤並不值得鼓勵部長您今天以文化部部長的身份到立院備詢相隔40多年我想再次請教對電影來講最重要的東西到底是什麼是實驗性原創性利潤票房還是特效還是精美的畫質您的想法有改變嗎"},{"start":6403.285,"end":6421.852,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":6421.952,"end":6449.103,"text":"有限的經費裡面我們是非常鼓勵實驗電影的比如短片那個經費在有限不用面對觀眾的情況下我是非常支持拍實驗電影報告文化部部長那您剛好去檢討一下金鐘獎把那個短片變成只有60分鐘以上才能參賽我們之後再聊這個議題那我們來看一下這一本書會去台流文化黑草台流文化內容的躍升計畫不知道您有沒有看過"},{"start":6450.423,"end":6474.103,"text":"這裡面爭取到4年100億的黑潮計畫但是頭也不是尾也不是裡面對於實驗性和原創性隻字未提然後你說如果要砸大錢進去拍呢很抱歉影視音文化的內容竟然只有17億元請教一下部長您當時推動這個光音的故事我們都知道想要拍怪獸片"},{"start":6474.844,"end":6475.485,"text":"您剛才講到關於的故事"},{"start":6494.74,"end":6523.293,"text":"讓我回到1980年代那個時候就是因為那家電影公司每次投資都四千萬五千萬就虧光了才輪到我們這些年輕人進去我記得關於故事只花四百萬然後小屁的故事也四百萬結果賣到三四千萬所以我觀念中一直不覺得電影是完全可以靠金錢來堆砌它也可以有很好的巧思在不高的預算下可以大賣所以我在台灣這個環境中投資太高"},{"start":6524.488,"end":6524.508,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":6536.71,"end":6562.499,"text":"所以謝謝部長這樣的一個精神我想數十年如一日就像您的光陰的故事數十年就像一部電影一樣這一本書裡面一百億沒有提到原創性沒有提到實驗性我們希望黑潮的計畫可以在您的領導之下有新的風貌近來台灣不管是電影或戲劇作品都非常的辛苦但是我們有您當年的帶領我們可以想像"},{"start":6563.439,"end":6590.116,"text":"我們台灣的電影是可以有活力跟朝氣的那部長有沒有信心在文化部長任內找回那個具有實驗性原創性的台灣電影文化再造台灣的電影讓場我們有沒有信心如果不是這個原因我就不會來這邊當部長好期待您早日提出小野版本的黑潮計畫我給你一個暱稱啦野黑潮好不好希望呢我們未來呢可以一起為台灣的文化共同努力謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":6595.101,"end":6597.563,"text":"謝謝謝謝葛如君委員部長請回好我們接下來請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席請部長好有請林部長"},{"start":6620.711,"end":6635.039,"text":"部長早安首先先向部長說歡迎來到文化部與我們教育委員會的委員們一同為相關的影視與文化出版業產業一同努力那先請教部長針對近期台灣館這個爭議"},{"start":6640.042,"end":6653.698,"text":"其實這個事件從一開始從否認晉升到產成其實讓民眾一直感覺說一頭霧水也質疑說我們台灣館在整個事件中這個監督驗收的工作是不是沒有做好"},{"start":6654.418,"end":6678.877,"text":"甚至媒體有報導說當初廠商還指稱以為只要批圖就沒事民眾都覺得這個非常的荒謬那這邊想請教喔臺文館是屬於文化部管轄那在整個事件呢臺文館有沒有主動向文化部求助通報或者請求協助那文化部是臺文館這邊主動向你們告上報還是說你們是看了新聞才知道這點我不知道因為那是我還沒有來之前發生的"},{"start":6683.135,"end":6707.76,"text":"報告委員我們是有兩個管道啦一方面新聞出來了以後那臺文館也有做一個緊急呈報單所以文化部才深入去了解這整個案子應該還是就是說看到新聞才知道齁那如果說其實臺文這個有兩個部分啦如果說臺文館是被廠商蒙騙那這邊其實我跟民眾一樣也要質疑說臺文館的對驗收監督的這個方面是有瑕疵的"},{"start":6708.18,"end":6714.587,"text":"但如果說台灣館他在過程中沒有向文化部這邊上報請求協助那這邊其實也要質疑說台灣館官方方面領單方面的聽信廠商的片面支持也沒有主動去查證一開始就聽廠商的話還否認所以說這個不僅是有瑕疵其實很嚴重的失職喔"},{"start":6727.782,"end":6751.027,"text":"那這個部分呢其實台灣館如果能基本的驗收工作跟查核工作都做不好民眾會質疑說以我們文化部的專業以台灣館的專業竟然發生這樣子荒謬的情勢是不是基本辨識能力有問題所以發生這樣的事情我相信說大家也應該從這個事件裡面有學到教訓我希望說針對本案文化部是不是兩週之內你們一個檢討報告給本席好嗎"},{"start":6751.587,"end":6755.448,"text":"好沒有問題謝謝委員好謝謝好那接下來這邊跟部長您討論一開始確定是由您來接任文化部的部長時期文化界是一片好評非常的期待那您的影視出版的資歷相當的豐富過去教育委員會也針對出版業這個蕭條提出很多的關心跟質詢"},{"start":6773.495,"end":6781.238,"text":"業者：業界也希望說部長您可以升級出版業：對出版業能夠多多的協助：更希望說部長您可以帶動台灣影視的潮流那在今天文化部的書面報告裡面有指出未來會加強扶植童書及繪本"},{"start":6791.602,"end":6800.225,"text":"並演繹創作獎勵金、出版媒合以及推廣相關的輔導措施。在這邊要請教部長,針對創作獎勵金的部分,部長您初步的構想是什麼?原來我們對於出版本來就有一些獎勵的部分。我個人對於推廣童書也好、繪本也好,我覺得"},{"start":6818.641,"end":6842.995,"text":"市場本身很重要就是有人在看這些書他才有地方可以去那我將來我的做法會是還是跟前面講一樣我想找到很多企業來贊助這些繪本作家跟童書作家然後推廣這些活動讓很多人覺得讀台灣的童書台灣自己作家童書跟台灣自己作家的繪本那個是一種"},{"start":6844.195,"end":6864.552,"text":"很有趣的事情那我們文化部會研擬更多的獎勵辦法這個獎勵辦法本身我想是要那部長您有這樣的想法本席也非常的支持那預計什麼時候會將這些構想來實現有沒有會做一個怎樣的方案有沒有怎樣的時程其實我們從110年到112年已經大概補助了40個案子嘛然後獎勵已經大概1100萬這個部分"},{"start":6873.237,"end":6897.587,"text":"我想我們會繼續推動會不會繼續擴大規模呢應該會假如我們要編列明年的預算的時候因為部長您所說的這個一千一百萬嗎是針對所有的出版還是只有針對同時跟繪本的部分我覺得這個費用對於台灣的原創繪本實在太少了一點在投資上面我覺得補助裡面台灣的這個文學作品也好"},{"start":6898.767,"end":6924.258,"text":"同書也好 繪本也好 有點被忽略因為繪本是非常重要因為它是一個視覺上的東西然後很多國家都把自己的繪本當作是一個推出去讓別人認識自己國家的一個方法尤其是兒童在看繪本可以影響到兒童對於美術的欣賞對於故事的了解所以這一點會是我未來應該是在預算上的編列還有在活動上的舉辦我會加強"},{"start":6926.415,"end":6941.741,"text":"這個部分本席也會支持,其實同事會本的獎勵我非常的肯定,非常的支持越小的孩子對於閱讀習慣的養成更容易成為他生活的日常而且小時候閱讀的這些印象很容易就是說潛移默化的效果會更好"},{"start":6942.461,"end":6965.331,"text":"所以說我很希望說部長竟然你有這樣的用心也有這樣子的規劃的話盡快的讓這樣的構想可以實現然後我們把期程定出來而且以您的資歷跟您目前的職位產業界其實對您的期待非常的高甚至希望說部長您是不是可以研擬出一個10年的一個出版業的政策方向我們是不是可以朝這個方向來努力可以啊"},{"start":6966.687,"end":6967.947,"text":"對我期待一個城市不要"},{"start":6980.523,"end":6981.724,"text":"謝謝部長希望可以將這些期望盡快的付諸實現那接下來我們請文策院一同我要請教關於我們這個黑潮計畫這個部分"},{"start":7010.929,"end":7012.32,"text":"有請文策院蔡董事長"},{"start":7023.075,"end":7039.626,"text":"部長我先請教您去年我們為了提升台流的競爭力跟塑造台流成為世界主流也配合這個黑潮計劃等等那中華電信遠傳及台客大也宣布跟文策院這邊合作當每個電信將與文策院合作來投入的資金各有30億來助影視台流在世界發光發熱"},{"start":7046.57,"end":7064.951,"text":"那這個消息在當時傳出的時候是非常振奮整個影視界的也讓民眾非常期待有更優質的影視產品那很多位委員包括我本席也在委員會關心過那是現在想了解說目前三大電信基金的進度是什麼你們的進度現在規劃到哪裡"},{"start":7067.534,"end":7085.06,"text":"好,謝謝委員詢問,那個跟委員報告一下三大電信公司跟文策院國發基金合作影視基金這三檔基金都如火如荼在進行當中首先中華電信的基金其實已經在大概今年的二月或三月已經正式通過了中華電信他們的董事會"},{"start":7085.86,"end":7103.809,"text":"所以都而且據我知道中華電信其實為了這個基金已經找好新的辦公室都裝好完畢了也開始在外面回顧新的人力但目前就是因為文策院需要投資任何一個項目無論是小道如一部電影大道如30億基金都要通過投審會那目前投審會的時間正在跟國發基金這邊研擬當中當投審會"},{"start":7108.231,"end":7131.198,"text":"通過審議完畢之後中華電信的基金就會馬上落地開始營運那另外臺哥大跟遠傳這兩檔基金據我們所知他們目前已經都在準備商業計畫書應該是6月或7月會先通過他們內部董事會因為大型上市公司也是要公司治理那通過他們董事會之後會馬上送來我們這邊進行國發基金的投資審議委員會以上跟委員報告"},{"start":7131.838,"end":7155.098,"text":"所以現在進度最快的是中華電信沒錯,他們也目前算是三大電信公司裡面相對最積極那目前雖然基金還沒有正式成立但中華電信最近已經有別於往年了他們大概目前已經開始下場投資台灣影視作品據我知道基金還沒有成立他們目前大概用自己的錢已經大概投了大概8到10部台灣的影視作品"},{"start":7156.15,"end":7179.521,"text":"所以除了跟我們這邊合作的這些方案之外他們自己也本身也投資了因為通話電信現在已經迫不及待進場準備大展身手了謝謝董事長其實文化部跟文策院當初我們有這樣的消息傳出來說三大電信基金會駐台流這個新聞其實引起了非常多的熱烈的討論那在現在目前的情況算卡關嗎"},{"start":7180.953,"end":7207.631,"text":"不會是卡關,因為目前的確文策院過去使用國發基金投資並沒有投過這麼大筆金額的案子坦白講就光以中華電信這個案子他總基金大概30億當然文策院並不是最大股東我們大概會出大概三成左右那即便三成也有9億對國發基金來講他也是需要多點時間來瞭解我們整個準備的時間是否恰當所以不算卡關而是大家需要更多時間來做同步訊息"},{"start":7208.151,"end":7233.678,"text":"那有沒有跟國發基金這邊來溝通過說大概還要需要多久的時間才能盡快的投入我們在最近已經跟國發基金這邊新的那個執密有聯繫過我想他們最近也會有新的主委上任我們會再去拜訪跟部長一起再去拜訪然後尋求一個更積極的時間三個月內會有新的進度嗎我相信會有會齁那如果三個月之內有新的進度請向本席這邊來說明謝謝"},{"start":7235.538,"end":7242.884,"text":"好,那我再耽誤一點點時間喔我再請教我們部長喔今年的坎城影展呢媒體也說飄出了濃濃的台灣味那有幾部獲得文策院TSCP投資的這個影片也同樣在坎城影展播映讓你覺得很感動也很振奮喔但是近期呢文策院發表TSCP2.0的這個政策的部分改變的部分業界有不同的意見是不是有誤解還是有落差這邊是解釋一下"},{"start":7265.096,"end":7287.171,"text":"這個我聽說了但是你講一下好了這個我來回答齁任何一個政策其實我們都尋求最大公約數的支持那坦白說TICB1.0或2.0都有少數業者有不同看法當然我們尋求大家的共識無論通過公開說明或是私下的拜訪我們還是一一說明那這一次TICB2.0跟1.0我們所支持的作品在砍成一共有六部作品"},{"start":7287.931,"end":7288.131,"text":"獲得入圍"},{"start":7317.951,"end":7334.457,"text":"其實我們前進國際的合作是希望讓台灣有更寬廣的舞台但是這個投資策略的這個隨時檢討我們做改進是希望說能夠更完善更契合但是溝通跟討論是非常的重要不要讓就是國際間有誤會是不是我們台灣這個福祉影視的態度有改變或者說我們是說的跟做的是不一樣的這個落差所以這邊還是要強調說溝通跟討論是非常重要的好以上謝謝"},{"start":7356.605,"end":7356.925,"text":"部長好你好"},{"start":7380.966,"end":7404.96,"text":"我不期待安排您今天就來這個委員會備詢基本上是很多的這個委員都迫不及待的想看見您平常都在電視上或在報章早上看見您那所以我想今天你來擔任這個文化部長當然認眾道遠所以我想開門見商我就有一些問題想要跟您請教"},{"start":7406.361,"end":7420.671,"text":"部長你在2006年時任華視總經理那時候你批評過公共電視文化事業基金會處處干預華視導致華視非工非商那"},{"start":7422.485,"end":7449.015,"text":"就是不像啦那時候你也不惜這個辭職捍衛華視的權益那想要請教部長為了改善這個華視的經營問題你現在還有那麼那一股衝勁嗎那如果說第一步是要處理民股買回當然你又有說可能要協調修法等等那到底具體而言該怎麼做才能改善這個華視目前的狀況"},{"start":7450.421,"end":7466.841,"text":"好謝謝你問這個問題讓我有機會稍微更正一下其實我當初我覺得我們都沒有人有經驗是怎麼樣把華視捐給公視華視是35年公視是8年從來沒有人做過一個公款集團所以我必須承認我當時有一直批評"},{"start":7467.822,"end":7492.769,"text":"然後我也後來跟這個當時的公視總經理現在在場的這個胡雲輝總經理道歉因為我的語言非常粗暴所以我最後是跟他道歉完做完醫院才下來的我並沒有用辭職來抗議那事隔18年齁我們回頭看這個華視跟公視的關係第一個公安局又變得更大然後又多了一個華視新聞頻道然後本身"},{"start":7493.871,"end":7520.703,"text":"公廣集團的人員跟經費又不是18年前可以比的它變得更龐大我覺得華視的問題第一個問題是今天在台灣這麼多頻道在競爭的情況下華視如何成為一個大家都很愛看的一個電視台跟華視新聞是一個因為它播報很公正大家很喜歡看的一個華視新聞台是非常重要的第二個既然公廣廣播集團已經這麼有力量的話"},{"start":7521.403,"end":7538.821,"text":"我會希望用各種方式支持這個公安集團協助華視壯大但是華視面臨的兩個問題都是一個非常困難的問題一個就是民股買回就在我一去的那一年就發生問題因為在法律上面民股要買回這件事情"},{"start":7539.682,"end":7539.942,"text":"﹚文化委員會議"},{"start":7560.262,"end":7582.335,"text":"公共電視的條件需要執行公共電視的任務的話負負擔捐贈是一個很重要的可是因為它裡面非工非商所以負負擔捐贈不能夠捐給他但是問題也得到解決就是這幾年來文化部給了華視大概器材的整建修建還有這個"},{"start":7583.592,"end":7598.592,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7599.132,"end":7616.338,"text":"當然看起來現在當然部長未來對於華視現在面臨的困境相信部長上任之後一定會有所改善那當然現在目前說華視究竟是商業電視台還是所謂的公共化的無線電視事業您認為呢現在的狀況"},{"start":7621.824,"end":7649.702,"text":"當初捐給公共電視的時候是希望他能夠自力更生他還是可以有商業廣告然後有商業廣告收入但是又受到某種限制就是他跟一般的商業台又不太一樣他不能有政論節目也不能有宗教節目也不能有這個政治的廣告對他具備了公共性質的商業台是是是所以他本身就是一個在界地上有一點模糊的然後我對他的期待就是"},{"start":7651.084,"end":7651.224,"text":"部長講到重點了"},{"start":7669.588,"end":7676.01,"text":"就是說我們如果依這個公股處理條例第11條 主管單位機關本來就得這個編列這個負負擔捐贈給這個所謂的戰股 超過50%的這個公共化的無線電視事業所以嘛 您剛剛有提到負負擔捐贈的問題 那當然過去我們都沒有每年編列負負擔捐贈給"},{"start":7692.495,"end":7692.815,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7717.089,"end":7717.389,"text":"李遠列席"},{"start":7736.5,"end":7757.333,"text":"提出一個很好的解決方式在院會上爭取行政院的支持另外想跟你討論就是說賴清德總統就職演說中他有提到兩個很大的跟文化部相關的工作面向第一個我想你應該也聽得很清楚"},{"start":7757.793,"end":7757.953,"text":"關於轉型正義的規劃"},{"start":7776.875,"end":7799.521,"text":"知事未提我們文化部狹下最大的這個威權的違章建築就是中正紀念壇該如何轉型的問題那請問部長關於中正紀念壇的轉型文化部到底做還是不做那剛剛柯思恩召委也有提到這個問題可是他當然也沒有問得很詳細那我想再跟你進一步討論說當然這個問題是複雜的"},{"start":7802.922,"end":7819.327,"text":"當然我也不是只有現在才問您在李永德部長的時代在史澤的部長時代我每一個部長都問過當然我是非常關心這個事情李永德部長其實當初他的回答是讓我覺得"},{"start":7821.047,"end":7843.618,"text":"和我新友七七煙他認為中正紀念堂百分之百是威權他的一磚一瓦都是在紀念蔣介石所以如果面對這樣子的概念的話那他的轉型正義當然轉型正義不是一觸可擊所以我們要怎麼樣逐步來轉型正義那當然由國家帶頭崇拜這個獨裁者"},{"start":7846.999,"end":7865.593,"text":"確實是荒謬的那也不尊重我們擁有不同歷史記憶的國人特別是一些政治受難者的家屬那所以我想怎麼樣來轉型那我具體建議就是說我們是不是在這個所謂的三軍一隊在堂體的三軍一隊"},{"start":7868.775,"end":7884.165,"text":"是不是可以來先移到所謂的升降騎台那裡因為我們知道現在中正堂就如同您剛講的現在很多的觀光啊那休閒啊這是一個提供很好的場域那很多觀光客其實也常來到中正堂那其實三軍儀隊這些展演也是很多觀光客愛看的"},{"start":7889.949,"end":7894.972,"text":"可是我們的象徵意義很清楚就是說他在堂體他就是好像還在這個這個保護或這個擁護這個所謂的威權那他如果來到升降騎台在這個廣場中那是不是就是"},{"start":7908.298,"end":7929.333,"text":"會轉移這個這個這樣的一個意義的象徵所以我想請教部長您怎麼看這個問題我想國安部其實我們這個事情要跟國安部來溝通他們已經對外表達說他那個儀隊是一種儀式而不是表演所以他他已經表達說要嘛就撤要嘛就不撤他已經不堅持不撤是他把這問題對給我們那這個問題其實我應該這樣講齁"},{"start":7934.554,"end":7951.341,"text":"我覺得中正紀念堂從當時蓋了中正紀念堂之後陳水扁總統上任之後就好像把它降級了然後就把那個一對撤掉然後把大中資政改成自由廣場可是8年後"},{"start":7953.086,"end":7953.426,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7969.292,"end":7992.807,"text":"﹗"},{"start":7993.615,"end":8019.684,"text":"已經對外徵求了所有人去想像中中正經驗堂應該變成什麼樣子那那個展覽我看了很多遍因為我家就住在隔壁我連中正經驗堂原來沒有鴿子到後來有九隻鴿子到現在鴿子各生我都陪伴小孩長大甚至我還寫過童話就是中正經驗堂的鴿子我覺得它的演變是很自然的演變就像鴿子從九隻變一大堆一樣本來有一條山樹林"},{"start":8030.147,"end":8048.937,"text":"每天早上九點半都會有一個人站在那邊開始講白色恐怖是怎麼發生的九點半講到十點半然後他講完之後離開你會很好奇他在白色恐怖裡面扮演什麼角色他其實認為自己是一個被害者那事實上從別人眼光看他是一個加害者"},{"start":8050.134,"end":8073.122,"text":"一切的一切在我們生活中都發生還是恐怖這件事情那可是我覺得台灣現在需要的是一種在一個有共識下往下做當然因為我覺得以目前這個政治生態我不想用很強迫的方式用我覺得對的方式往下做我有我個人的想法是我的家族裡面有"},{"start":8074.093,"end":8079.277,"text":"我舅舅有四個裡面有三個是白色恐怖但是我不會用我個人的理由去面對這個事情"},{"start":8081.632,"end":8081.953,"text":"轉型正義的意義也是這樣"},{"start":8105.953,"end":8123.259,"text":"因為賴清德總統的就職他對轉型正義的工作要持續做那轉型正義的工作當然弄到每個部會去那在文化部當然最重要中文進展當然是一個很重要的事情那所以我還是認為就是說三軍一隊就算"},{"start":8124.179,"end":8124.339,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8146.138,"end":8158.175,"text":"所以我想這個是一個轉型正義很重要意義的表徵所以這個請部長再思考看看那好那我想再借一點點時間就是說我想跟談到剛剛提到就是所謂的這個語言的問題因為"},{"start":8162,"end":8184.257,"text":"藍信德總統也有揭示就是說我們文化的永續那語言的保存是非常重要那當然剛剛也有委員提到現在因為語言我們有客委會我們有原民會所以包括這個客語原民會我們都有專責中央部會也有對應的專法那台語它散落在包括各個部會包括教育部跟文化部"},{"start":8184.557,"end":8210.276,"text":"可是文化部又是所謂國家語言發展法組織的單位所以在台語的推廣上面我覺得這個部分這個文化部責無旁貸那不曉得部長你有什麼樣的想法在台語的部分我想很多人都期待文化部扮演一個比較推廣台語的那個角色我想這一點是無庸置疑的而且我來我來上任前已經很多單位來找我也強調台語的傳承的重要我個人在成長經驗中"},{"start":8214.941,"end":8237.969,"text":"是全班唯一不會講台語的外省第二代可是我們老師是用台語上課所以我後來有能力做一個像風飛飛台語歌謠的一個策劃者從不懂台語到熱愛台語到有能力做出台語歌謠所以我對台語的那個情感是很深的所以這點我想不用擔心我會開始往下做那至於在什麼時候完成這個"},{"start":8240.31,"end":8242.071,"text":"謝謝李建招委部長請回座"},{"start":8267.708,"end":8271.372,"text":"好謝謝那再來我們請張雅玲委員謝謝主席那我們有請部長好有請李部長"},{"start":8287.847,"end":8312.509,"text":"部長好 非常歡迎你來到文化部 因為你自己本身就是一個應該非常了解文化的一個文化人 那我想我就接續著剛剛議級委員的幾個議題 我先快速的先講到轉型正義的這一件事情 因為我過去在民間也是有在寫這些有關於白色恐怖的這些走讀的腳本給孩子 那中正紀念堂其實也是我一個腳本的主題"},{"start":8313.61,"end":8330.22,"text":"那這裡面呢我想跟部長討論因為部長剛剛講了一個非常重要的重點就是大家如何凝聚共識我想轉型正義喔再走到現在這個階段我們應該要走向第二個部分就是處理威權移序的部分威權移序裡面可能有幾種不同的處理方法"},{"start":8331.772,"end":8350.762,"text":"可能是像移籍委員剛剛說的部分但是也有另外一種方法我們是不是可以做更多的人權教育我們必須要有一些更批判性的思考去面對當現在的政治的政治或社會的各種局面或是我們收到的假訊息所以這個批判性思考對於不管是聯合國統計經會都非常從2016年都開始推動的"},{"start":8353.843,"end":8371.729,"text":"但是我發現一件事情就是我們國家人權博物館的預算以前其實是會有兩次的教育推廣但是我們現在我從11年看起來有1290萬112年我查不到第二期的資料如果第二期是沒有那就946萬113年我現在只有看到規劃一期"},{"start":8374.957,"end":8375.017,"text":"我跟"},{"start":8402.364,"end":8428.569,"text":"我跟委員說個報告,原則上已經往我們是一年是兩次那後來有團體就是反映說我們大概第二期時間的執行時間就太短了所以我們就把整個整變成做為一年就是一期那經費上的原則上大概是八九百那一一三年度事實上也確實申請了蠻多所以我們把經費也調贏了一些經費過來所以一一三年度可以看得出來我們核定的是一千一百多萬"},{"start":8429.372,"end":8448.205,"text":"對可是它跟111年比起來是變少了耶如果是一期來說我也認同因為的確我過去也是申請這個補助案的人所以我了解的確在第二期執行上面真的是非常的緊湊所以你們要這樣做我完全沒有任何意見但是金額上面真的就是變少了我們人力管的經費預算確實是比較緊"},{"start":8450.407,"end":8469.905,"text":"那這個部分的話是預算不夠嗎是需要部長再來協助嗎還是怎麼樣因為剛剛我們要講嘛威權移序要處理這件事情社會共識很重要如果我們沒有足夠的資源去滾動去做這些人權教育要如何走進到下一個階段轉型正義要如何繼續下去這一部分是需要部長的支持嗎"},{"start":8470.686,"end":8498.658,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在目前也有在徵請那個促轉基金來協助這樣一部分的一個工作好那我們這部分我們會再來努力來徵請基金那這個部分我希望可以積極的去申請這個促轉基金我也希望這個運用上面可以帶給大家更多的想像好謝謝請回那再來就是說我想我也想要繼續的來請教這個部長非常了解有多少鴿子的部長就是說中正建堂裡面有一個汐水以前有一個噴水的地方"},{"start":8499.378,"end":8527.22,"text":"那每到夏天以前都一直噴水嘛那以前因為台北真的非常非常的炎熱到夏天很多小孩就會去那邊洗水那這已經因為疫情前幾年因為疫情的關係它關閉了那現在呢似乎也沒有開起來要讓孩子洗水我想要請部長來研究我們這個部分是不是可以提供孩子一個洗水的空間呢把噴水池重新變成讓孩子在夏天尤其是在這個氣候變遷的狀況之下可以讓他去那邊洗水這件事情是不是可行呢"},{"start":8528.191,"end":8529.091,"text":"那可不可以負責的"},{"start":8544.237,"end":8544.297,"text":"臺語政策"},{"start":8563.018,"end":8591.676,"text":"因為就是像如同剛剛部長也非常清楚就是作為一個主責單位因為我自己是一個講台語的家庭所以我自己非常在乎這件事情那我想跟部長先討論一件事情我們一年的國家整體語言的發展方案的預算有64億其中台語總預算只佔了15億大概23.43%這個預算到底夠不夠這個部分我覺得我們可以再來討論但是我想先討論一件事情"},{"start":8592.697,"end":8602.013,"text":"金額我們放在影視跟表演藝術上面達到了10億多那其實等於是在將近九成的預算八九成的預算在這個領域上面"},{"start":8603.533,"end":8632.292,"text":"我們現在其實要講台語的文化有一個很重要的東西是我們其實有最近這個公視啊我們也做很多很棒很優質的一些台語或是客語的節目那我們到底在可是我看文創發展只有兩千多萬我不曉得說我們這兩個部分是有做一個整體性的思考嗎當我們文策院或是我在民間有一些很好的漫畫故事我是不是把它串聯起來讓它變成影視發展的一個整合性計畫呢"},{"start":8633.613,"end":8642.57,"text":"我們有做這件事情嗎?我們現在有做這件事情嗎?我先回答剛才為什麼會比較偏向影視因為當初成立了公共電視台與台因為那個"},{"start":8644.616,"end":8664.442,"text":"委員應該稍微了解一個電視台要成立跟拍片他的預算是非常高的未來我想我們會調整到其他的方式來推動台語比如台語家庭還有台語的其他表演應該說部長其實我並沒有反對我們要投資這麼高因為我像上之前我跟史哲部長諮詢的時候我也非常認同因為這個是一個空站的部分對對"},{"start":8665.402,"end":8693.471,"text":"這個空站的資源一定要灑下去一定要去海灑只是說我現在是希望說這個資源是不是可以跟我的文創發展整個掛鉤做一個整體性的計畫讓一些好的文本像我們現在很多的韓劇都是其實都是從漫畫線上的漫畫開始去發展把它變成是動漫然後變成是那個影視訊接本然後後來發展更多的IP周邊所以這是我希望文化部去做的事情把每一個投資的資源從一個點變成整個面去灑這樣才能夠去讓更多人聽到台語聽到客語聽到這些語言"},{"start":8695.171,"end":8719.714,"text":"喜歡這件事情喜歡這文化去學習它這部分我希望部長可以給我們一個計畫好不好就是說我們怎麼去做這整個串聯那這個計畫是不是可以在多久的時候可以提供給我們多久我想請教一下兩個月可以嗎好不好兩個月可以嗎如果我們開始做這個方向去研究謝謝部長那再來就是說齁"},{"start":8721.243,"end":8749.161,"text":"之前我也有講就是說我們今天剛剛已經是海灑了嘛對不對下面的要怎麼去承接親子其實是一個很重要的平台那我們其實現在有母語學習家庭跟母語傳承家庭那我想要知道說我們對於母語傳承家庭之前我也其實也有質詢部長說我們對於傳承家庭是不是有更高的一些任務給他除了只是給他獎金讓他自己可是他只有在家裡講他能不能走到社區去講我不想要現在文化部有沒有進一步的規劃在這個部分"},{"start":8751.342,"end":8779.71,"text":"這個部分是不是請社長跟委員報告一下這個傳承家庭的部分我們現在就是希望說他除了家裡講台語之外如果他願意成為所謂的共學家庭因為我們會賦予他們責任他們可以來跟文化部申請說還要在他的社區裡面推動10個或是15個家庭他們要一起來共學的話那這個部分我們會給他經費的支柱還有包括場地的租借或者是他們這些"},{"start":8781.452,"end":8786.437,"text":"我們下禮拜還會再進行一次的諮詢會議把我們整個台語家庭的推動計畫跟我們台語界的夥伴們一起討論好了以後希望在8月份能夠正式公告9月份上路"},{"start":8806.934,"end":8834.797,"text":"好 謝謝那延續這一題還有就是說我們之前呢其實是有講說我們需要有更頻繁的去使用這一些我們台語的這個東西嘛那之前我們其實有講到就是說其實他們可能是說故事的爸媽或是推廣活動或是一些友善魂境可是因為之前也有台語的家庭來反映說他們可能這是像台語生活節或是這是一個台語的會盆活動可是他進去的時候他聽不到可是只有50%不到的人"},{"start":8837.759,"end":8862.011,"text":"議員的使用是台語變成是說已經在講台語的他想要更進化更進化更提升自己的一個語言能力他想創造這個環境給小孩他沒有這個空間所以之前是有跟文化部討論是說我們的活動是要做一些標示這可能是資深級優級的語言能力的專家級語言能力的初級語言能力的這種標示讓"},{"start":8863.112,"end":8868.71,"text":"民眾可以去選擇而不是說全部都是變成初級的版本這個部分我不曉得文化部研究的成果是什麼"},{"start":8869.847,"end":8894.301,"text":"目前我們今年度的各個補助項目像說故事爸媽或者是那些推廣活動或者是接受我們補助的台語主流化的表演節目我們都有要求他們要標示這是一個純台語的演出或者是如果是台華混合或台客混合的時候在比例上面也能夠做出一個適當的說明那這樣的話讓我們參與的朋友們可以做一個正確的選擇"},{"start":8895.202,"end":8919.621,"text":"所以在這個部分的話是什麼時候已經開始會開始執行呢?對今年度就會開始執行今年度就會開始執行也是8月的時候嗎一起購嗎OK好那最後還是要再請部長一下就是說因為部長畢竟我覺得之前擔任過華視的總經理那過去又在這個領域上面有非常多跨媒體的跨領域不管是文學作品影視作品歌謠等等的一些整合我非常希望"},{"start":8920.322,"end":8920.342,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":8951.813,"end":8953.235,"text":"陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員"},{"start":8977.574,"end":8999.472,"text":"部長早安先謝謝我從小的時候讀的書的偶像小野部長願意接下這個非常辛苦的工作那在這之前呢我想要先送部長一本書他已經絕版了所以部長你一定要好好保存這本書的書名就叫做如果我是文化部長但是因為你現在已經是文化部長了所以你可以把如果"},{"start":9001.065,"end":9028.006,"text":"這兩個字蓋掉你就是文化部長了但是你知道這本書多棒嗎他是一本法國出版後來翻譯成台灣中文的童書那你現在也是爺爺了我相信你一定有在跟你的孫子共讀那這本書那這本書呢我想要分享其中幾頁讓部長知道您的責任有多麼重大甚至您在我心目中所有部會重要的排名絕對在前三名就是這本書所要說的來下一頁"},{"start":9029.855,"end":9047.463,"text":"好下一頁好下一頁這本書裡面呢有一段話他是這麼說的就是我頭影片上所顯示的如果我是文化部長我會盡力向我的同僚說明支持藝術和文化有多麼的重要他們也一定會用心的聽我說"},{"start":9048.704,"end":9059.113,"text":"但是如果在表決預算的時候他們就會開始宣稱有其他更重要更緊急的項目得優先處理例如醫療工程經濟跟國防部長這是您未來的處境他其中裡面就談到了我們要認識建築我們要認識戲劇我們要認識各式各樣的文化藝術其中有一個來自於部長您跟我都非常擅長的專業叫做出版業"},{"start":9075.586,"end":9093.719,"text":"他說像是長篇小說啦短篇小說集、詩集、論文集跟漫畫全部都會變成禁書那我只擷取了其中的一頁也就是說當大家都不再認同文化工作的重要性所有東西就會從這個世界上消失所以部長我想要從這裡這本書等一下我會送給您"},{"start":9096.241,"end":9117.191,"text":"雖然他已經絕版了齁但是我想跟部長談一談不管是所有剛剛委員問的很多很細緻的工作或者是很多輿論的發酵我相信部長這都是會是您接下來非常困難而且重要的挑戰所以我要再一次以讀者的身份先謝謝部長願意承擔的這一份非常艱困的工作來下一頁"},{"start":9118.351,"end":9143.061,"text":"這是文化部的組織圖我想部長你應該已經了然於心下一頁在過去一年當中我們辦公室雖然只有地補了一年的時間但是我們花了很多力氣在跟文化部的非常多政策跟相關的預算對話其中還包含這個我覺得是最困難的它應該是所謂的深水區水很深或是在很深的地方大家不敢"},{"start":9143.601,"end":9143.741,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9162.384,"end":9182.753,"text":"我們也談了臺灣臺語團體剛剛有兩位委員都都都談了我們就不再多說但是臺語相關的政策跟資源在文化部是大家很多很多很多的期待不管是活動不管是演講不管是相關預算或者是跟教育部的跨部會合作都需要部長您再多多費心下演"},{"start":9183.573,"end":9203.653,"text":"還有文創發展司裏面在談的文創園區的定位部長我覺得之後你也會遇到很大的困境是來自這五大文創園區他各自的商業發展機制他各自跟民間機制的合作或者是他的定位或者是他怎麼落地跟各地方縣市政府合作甚至他可以鼓勵年輕人進駐"},{"start":9204.774,"end":9204.935,"text":"接下來下一頁"},{"start":9216.411,"end":9242.617,"text":"還有關於表演藝術的部分這是在議法司台灣有東尼獎了在2019年的時候就有多位民間表演藝術聯盟團體呼籲文化部應該成立自己的台灣東尼獎可是很可惜的是下一頁很可惜的是在2024年台灣確實有台灣東尼獎但是是落在台北市文化部的高度目前我們還沒有看到我們知道文化部當年有召開相關會議但是沒有後續消息"},{"start":9246.078,"end":9266.397,"text":"下一頁談到台灣部長您在上任的時候第一份新聞稿說的你要推動兒少文化幣這件事情也就是說我可以看得出來部長對兒少是相當重視的而在時部長任內也成立了相關的兒童台好單台頻道那可是關於兒童自治節目這件事情部長"},{"start":9267.037,"end":9285.17,"text":"未來也絕對會是千頭萬緒部長您的幕僚都可以請回因為他們今天都不用幫你回答問題我沒有要逐一跟部長討論這麼多細緻的問題我只是要讓部長知道你有千頭萬緒你有非常非常多事情需要解決而這些都只是我們辦公室在去年所追蹤的題目而已來下一頁"},{"start":9286.551,"end":9297.701,"text":"還有關於臺灣的小孩可不可以唱臺灣自己的兒歌甚至在所謂的非商業營業空間像是學校或者是社團活動如果要播放臺灣自己的歌很多爸媽甚至被學校收到通知請不要把孩子們用臺灣的歌或是臺灣的兒歌唱跳的影片上傳到YouTube因為可能會被相關的版權團體做出控告這是可能"},{"start":9313.135,"end":9338.443,"text":"但是會不會就因為這樣如同部長剛剛您被其他委員質詢到關於短影音的問題關於文化統戰的問題部長這也是千頭萬緒接下來我們發現文化部甚至在文化平權會報裡面沒有青年跟兒少諮詢代表這件事情部長可能您的同您的幕僚不會在第一時間跟您說因為我們發現文化部在這件事情上的概念非常非常的"},{"start":9339.743,"end":9358.689,"text":"我不要說落後,非常非常的不與時俱進對於青少的這個部分文化部的積極度確實很不足我們也希望文化部之後在相關的諮詢委員會裡面必須要兒少代表我相信這件事情是很多委員都會一起關心跟重視的沒有相關文化平權跟兒少的諮詢"},{"start":9360.009,"end":9362.67,"text":"我相信部長你一定知道進入國中之後所有的小孩都被綁在學校裡面寫參考書寫考卷這個是不真的事實"},{"start":9385.555,"end":9391.979,"text":"而一旦文化幣到了孩子們的手上他們真的想花會不會也沒地方可以花沒有消費標的可以選擇好我想這個部分也會我們辦公室會繼續跟文化部對話再下一頁"},{"start":9399.875,"end":9426.647,"text":"好,關於AI這件事情台灣國科會甚至想要做自己的版本我相信政府的政策有他的相關考量我不予置評但是我想問光是AI到上一個上個月吧上個禮拜又出現更新版的AI他是從影像甚至他跟你對話他教你解數學題我相信現場的葛博士應該非常清楚而一旦台灣要做自己的AI模型相關的侵權問題將如何解決目前我們在文化部也沒有看到相關進度好,下一頁"},{"start":9429.388,"end":9447.356,"text":"還有文策院所有的活動所有這些還有好多好多的細節需要討論到國際展場上如何更實質的拓展文化外交透過版權交易透過活動透過很多的對話如何讓國外這些出版商願意回頭來看看台灣也有很棒的出版原創作品好下一頁"},{"start":9448.897,"end":9448.937,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9463.757,"end":9473.725,"text":"所以部長我想問在您的想像底下台灣的文化環境你希望在您的任內打造出什麼樣的樣態你有什麼樣的想像或者是你希望推動什麼樣的政策或者是法案或者是其他更多公共的對話來達成您的想像還有我覺得台灣必須要面對的現實就是在有網路的時代不管全球化的商業經濟發展是往前或是後退"},{"start":9488.678,"end":9518.418,"text":"但是全球化資訊化時代底下部長您剛剛說的要以台灣本土的創作為奧這件事情其實難度相對的非常非常高那部長您如何想像但是在部長我給你30秒想像一下但是在這之前我想要先幫部長回答剛剛有一個委員問的議題也許部長您就可以稍微想像一下為什麼我要這麼說剛剛洪孟凱委員在一剛開始的時候問您說有沒有很多電影他是票房不好但是後續效果延伸"},{"start":9518.578,"end":9518.698,"text":"稍女與戰車動畫電影"},{"start":9539.841,"end":9559.859,"text":"怎麼樣大家覺得很不紅可是他後續IP效應非常非常非常好你看連那個阿宅葛博士都不清楚像這樣的東西台灣有沒有機會做我會說有台灣有非常多的年輕人想要投入動畫製作而動畫製作可能在過去不是部長您所熟悉的那您如何想像"},{"start":9560.439,"end":9579.181,"text":"還有剛剛有一個委員問到關於投資抵檢的部分我也可以幫您一併說順便告訴你現在的困境目前的投資抵檢說要有相關完整的劇本才可以做投資抵檢可是在很多文化創意產業它光是初期的醞釀成本我相信部長你一定非常清楚你自己悶在家裡寫稿的時候沒有人會給你錢"},{"start":9580.302,"end":9589.245,"text":"你們在家裡畫畫創作的時候沒有人會給你錢全部都是出版品完成之後你才會拿到稿費或相關的費用所以初期的醞釀這件事情文化部願不願回頭再去看關於投資底簡的部分我的時間用完了可不可以再給部長30秒簡單回答一下我剛說了這麼多千頭萬緒的問題部長您如何想像在您的任內去促使這些事情"},{"start":9604.266,"end":9619.791,"text":"我覺得我們長後嬰兒潮世代在升學主義的成長中不能上體育課 不能上音樂課 不能上美術課所以基本上台灣的教育是非常失敗的"},{"start":9621.131,"end":9648.879,"text":"與我們這一整代的人對藝術不重視他也會影響到我們對文化的投資跟觀念還有消費因為不重視我們就不會去消費你的童書裡面講說當你要推動文化的時候它是一個看不到的東西最後就會把錢擺在經濟擺在民生擺在一切東西但是這樣的結果就是會創造出一整個時代對文化漠視的時代然後也完全對文化抱著很輕蔑的態度"},{"start":9650.691,"end":9669.292,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":9670.512,"end":9693.21,"text":"滿時髦的或者滿流行的東西我做的第一步就會去找過去所有曾經很同情我們做紙風車集團的企業大老闆希望他們能夠拿錢出來我們不是有一個方案是企業可以投資文化對可是我剛剛說嘛可是回頭你要相關修法要進行就是光是初期這件事情很多大老闆會看不懂"},{"start":9694.151,"end":9709.558,"text":"我有一個故事只能私下跟部長說很多大企業老闆他對於東西的那個現金迴轉率他的想像可能是3個月可是我們的很多文化產品回收不會在3個月我想文策院董事長也非常清楚不會在3個月內就有相關回收好部長您繼續謝謝"},{"start":9711.072,"end":9732.468,"text":"大概就是讓他覺得投資文化不是一個我們從那個抵減稅或者是說ESG這種地方給他得到利益之外他打從心裡覺得這個文化很重要他喜歡音樂他喜歡美術他喜歡電影是打從心裡面有一種感染力可是我剛剛講過我們這一整代的人都沒有文化"},{"start":9733.268,"end":9733.989,"text":"我們這一整袋人類"},{"start":9763.748,"end":9781.774,"text":"所以你講到這種童書要父母親自己非常愛童書他才會去買童書或者他就不會買童書同樣道理我們一整代人對文化有點欺滅的感覺的時候他根本不覺得值得投資嘛所以我覺得我要做的事情就是要讓"},{"start":9783.206,"end":9799.326,"text":"真的擁有資源的人比如企業家他願意把多餘的一些利潤拿出來投資在文化上幫助整個社會他會覺得很值得他打從心裡喜歡這個東西我們要用文化感染他"},{"start":9801.022,"end":9803.504,"text":"這是我真的想到說我可以直接做的部分"},{"start":9830.862,"end":9850.145,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9850.285,"end":9877.481,"text":"如果到最後現場都沒有人了只是要演唱家其他人去哪裡了去滑手機去看Netflix不是去各式各樣的平台然後他故意嘲諷了做一個文化禁止日這一天所有人都不能參與文化活動可是我們以為文化活動是什麼是不要進劇場嗎不要聽歌嗎不要看劇嗎很抱歉各位如果禁止文化日那天真的發生我們連衣服都沒得穿因為連衣服"},{"start":9878.982,"end":9905.056,"text":"都是一個文化臺灣有時裝設施臺北有時裝設計週對嗎所以謝謝部長我們未來一起努力謝謝主席不會把你的書放到我辦公室裡一定要謝謝明天看著謝謝好謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員我剛好沒這一本真的這是我自己買的喔主席我們一起啦這個真的很少這個出版社很少"},{"start":9910.579,"end":9912.66,"text":"接下來請郭育晴委員"},{"start":9940.907,"end":9944.7,"text":"謝謝主席,有請小宇部長,好有請李部長"},{"start":9949.721,"end":9977.776,"text":"恭喜部長也期待因為我知道您是文化人您也曾經是影視產業當中重要的主管同時跟教育有很多的一些關聯同時又是一個藝術家也是一個文化的出版者所以其實在這個部分對您有非常多的一些期待希望將來其實在我們的文化的產業當中能有更多的一些大家想要看到的一些良性的互動跟一些發展"},{"start":9979.295,"end":10001.088,"text":"好那接下來我們看一下一張部長認識在中間那個是我啦好右邊那位您認識他嗎蠻好的朋友是陳沐浴大哥陳沐浴對上個上上個禮拜他還特別就是到我的辦公室來跟我聊天喔那當然我想最近陳沐浴大哥"},{"start":10001.648,"end":10002.128,"text":"這部分其實我不知道部長你怎麼看"},{"start":10024.214,"end":10051.191,"text":"我來回答一下因為我曾經是臺北電影節第一屆跟第二屆的主席換句話說這個電影節是在我手上創立的那針對這個陳沐浴講的話第一他就是一個電影中這個演員演多少長度跟短真的不是主角跟配角的關係沒錯他可以演很短可是他是主角就像他自己很不服氣說這個電影就叫老狐狸嘛那這個電影我看過演得真好這樣那所以第一"},{"start":10051.971,"end":10058.234,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":10059.537,"end":10072.564,"text":"那這個部分其實在我們來看一下我們就回歸到在主角或者是配角或者是他們在報名的時候這個對於條件上面的一個篩選的部分然後這個其實審查還是有一點點小小的爭議了那為什麼會特別來問部長因為我們的文化部變成是這個北影的指導單位那相對的來講可能也會是這個主管單位所以這個部分可能要請部長也稍微要"},{"start":10089.033,"end":10089.053,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":10106.095,"end":10127.062,"text":"那另外呢在所謂的這個報名的部分我想陳沐逸大哥他們是這部電影當中他們是幫他報名了男主角的一個獎項但最後呢卻因為所謂的戲份不足那因為我過去也是在戲劇圈我們知道所謂的戲份不足這件事情其實根本沒有辦法去"},{"start":10128.442,"end":10134.545,"text":"在角色上的一個認定因為這個戲分不足到底是他的演出的時間不夠長還是他播出的時間他的片段被剪掉叫戲分不足所以其實這中間有很大的爭議但是以這部戲劇來說其實陳沐益大哥他本身就是靠著他的戲劇的張力那我相信部長你也看過這部電影那陳沐益大哥在裡面其實是非常非常重要的"},{"start":10160.738,"end":10177.102,"text":"第2點報名的部分北影其實他可以要求報名者他可以再補充或者補交更多其他的一些文件來證明其實他就是男主角或者是北影有沒有比較善意的去跟陳沐浴大哥講說我們是不是可以把"},{"start":10177.702,"end":10199.985,"text":"提名角色的部分最佳男主角或者是變成所謂的最佳的男配角的這個部分來做這樣子的一個應該說權衡之有沒有這樣子的一個討論這是對於一個演出工作者的一個最基本的尊重那這個部分我不曉得北映這邊就文化部您的了解北映有做到溝通的一個管道嗎"},{"start":10200.866,"end":10223.774,"text":"跟委員報告一下北影其實是我們文化部跟他合作都是我們有經費跟他合作都在活動上比如說他們要培養新人是那這個辦法過程我們完全沒有碰因為他是台北市政府文化基金會底下的一個單位所以我完全不知道他們這個但因為我們文化部是指導單位啦那我想是不是中間可以之後來做這樣子的一個聯繫跟溝通"},{"start":10226.255,"end":10237.722,"text":"好那接下來我們再來看一下這個可能前面有幾位的這個我們的立委朋友他們也有特別提到了啦就是關於台灣館的這個吉祥物的部分那其實是真的很可愛但是後來也卻因為前後的說法當然也"},{"start":10243.865,"end":10245.946,"text":"確定了這個其實還是會有一些抄襲的一個疑慮那我要講的是另外一件事情就是在於根據這個政府採購的資訊網上面我們其實可以查詢的到那就是這個圖像呢"},{"start":10259.555,"end":10279.036,"text":"他所被提供的這個單位的公司叫做蹦世界數位創意股份有限公司他從民國大概是107年開始他連續了7年取得了台灣管的一個標案那他的這個所有的標案的一個項目名稱是展覽數位內容建制採購案"},{"start":10280.498,"end":10306.801,"text":"那每一年大概是平均大概就是兩百多萬左右啦那整個七年下來喔連續七年得標連續七年大概將近有一千五百多萬那我想在這這中間的整個所有的過程喔到引發這一次的圖像抄襲的一個事件我不曉得這個文化部這個部分身為創作者算是我們的這個主管單位的文化部那這個部分是不是也要"},{"start":10308.022,"end":10320.894,"text":"嚴查或者是他們在得標的這個過程當中我們有沒有做落實查核的這樣子的一個調查這個部分是不是有我們大概前面我已經有要要請相關的人講嗎好ok"},{"start":10323.164,"end":10339.609,"text":"跟委員報告,在我們文學館委託蹦世界的這總共其實是四個標案,然後就是我常常期年是因為我們通常有標案會有後續擴充,所以這一每年其中有三次是屬於後續擴充的部分。"},{"start":10340.089,"end":10343.332,"text":"可是針對這7個標案是不是在整個招標的過程或者是招標的審查的委員有沒有什麼樣的問題我們已經請文學館把這7次招標的相關文件全部都送到文化部會由我們政風處跟我們的秘書處協同來展示"},{"start":10358.968,"end":10375.913,"text":"總體檢 總體檢"},{"start":10376.637,"end":10400.99,"text":"文化部裡面有一個所謂的例行的查核就由政風可是因為文化部門非常多我們不會對一個管某一個案子特別去查核他每一次等於用抽查的方式來進行所以並不是這個案子這7年來我們剛好都沒有抽到這個相關的案子那這一次就要求他們先把資料都送到文化部裡面來由政風跟秘書處來查核這整個招標的過程或者是訂閱的過程"},{"start":10404.031,"end":10404.471,"text":"李遠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":10428.303,"end":10428.703,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":10444.733,"end":10465.434,"text":"另外我想請教一下就是我們每一年其實都會有所謂的從2015年通過這個法案之後其實我們都會規劃這個水下文化資產的一個展覽我不知道今年有沒有什麼樣的一個規劃跟進度這水下文化資產這個是一個蠻新的東西我是不是可以請文資局的局長回答"},{"start":10468.289,"end":10486.562,"text":"報告委員,我們每一年針對文化資產的立法到現在,我們大概每年都做了這三大工作項目,就對於水上文化資產的生化研究。像現在目前經過了文獻的調查還有其他的口訪,發現了水上文化資產大家比較有興趣就是沉船,現在大概有387筆的沉船的資料。"},{"start":10488.723,"end":10509.369,"text":"但是目前只有巴騷對不對?巴騷裡面是所謂的分級有的是所謂的列冊已經判定它有文化歷史的價值的另外我們在這387層船我們會進行深化的研究另外有一些層船的出水的文物我們就一直在整理還有修復保存"},{"start":10511.289,"end":10535.045,"text":"另外還有一個就是這些水下文化資產專業人才的培訓再來就是推動教育等等這些所以您提到這個專業的文化也就是考古隊啦對水下的考古隊啦但是這個因為我們台灣的地形比較特殊我們附近的海洋的一個洋流包含氣候或東北季風甚至可能有因為地震的關係那我們都知道其實每一個考古的這個潛水隊員"},{"start":10536.886,"end":10554.65,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10554.73,"end":10570.741,"text":"人力部門現在我們一個我們是跟一些學術研究單位來做一些合作是我們用隨案養成的方式因為我們現在國內的這些學校裡面對於水下考古這個科系其實是少之又少現在我們大概就只有跟清華大學"},{"start":10571.762,"end":10586.603,"text":"中央研究院等這個單位大家來合作用隨案養成的方式來培育人才有沒有什麼樣一個比較近期的一個計畫或者是這個部分我們可能還要再更進一步的演繹我是不是可以事後提供書面詳細的書面資料給您好好謝謝"},{"start":10587.805,"end":10609.443,"text":"好,也謝謝部長,我們希望這個文化部,其實我們想要討論的問題很多,那尤其是針對我們的兒少,我們也知道其實在台灣我們的兒童的應該是說關於兒童的這個節目的部分,自製的節目其實比例是非常之低的啦,那這部分其實我們真的也要靠我們的部長好好的,我們大家一起來努力,好嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席"},{"start":10612.947,"end":10618.507,"text":"好謝謝謝謝郭育晴委員部長請回我們接下來休息5分鐘"},{"start":10984.059,"end":11012.195,"text":"我們繼續開會我們接下來請吳春成委員好有請部長好有請李部長部長部長好恭喜你也為文化部恭喜因為那個小野是一個真正的文化人"},{"start":11014.038,"end":11037.78,"text":"重點不在於歷練有再多因為文化是一種靈魂一個民主的靈魂國家一個時代的靈魂那我覺得我們這幾年有點偏差了偏差了這一點只有技術沒有靈魂那我希望一個真正的文化人真正的一個懂得文化的人來接任部長"},{"start":11038.735,"end":11065.555,"text":"那部長我講的話你剛才一開場第一個質詢的時候看你有點緊張不過這一樣我第一天當立委很緊張但是我看你這樣子一路下來你的神情就越來越穩定所以呢然後呢所以我覺得你你非常有把握對要走的路我對那我自己本身也是拿了"},{"start":11069.057,"end":11085.003,"text":"4A廣告節的終身成就獎所以我想我應該也算是一個文化人所以希望未來能夠跟這個部長有更深入的對話而不只是浮光掠影談表面的東西這個"},{"start":11090.1,"end":11117.236,"text":"因為部長知道我在談壯世代那為什麼談壯世代因為我研究趨勢的我想往前30年台灣最重要一件事情就叫民主化民主化走了30年現在還在炒民主化那我覺得有點落伍了啦現在往後看30年部長覺得最重要的事情是什麼還是民主化嗎"},{"start":11119.195,"end":11122.761,"text":"因為這很重要喔 你要知道我們國家往哪裡走"},{"start":11124.367,"end":11125.007,"text":"臺灣未來三十年"},{"start":11155.154,"end":11167.942,"text":"剛才這一頁往前這一個新聞是民國44年有兩個女生在西門町逛街就被請到警察局那犯了什麼罪"},{"start":11169.298,"end":11170.338,"text":"文化部等同文化部"},{"start":11193.38,"end":11212.507,"text":"當然當然當然不是不是一個機構不是一個機構但是是不是文化是不是是文化部的責任是是文化部的責任沒有問題所以是廣泛的這樣子的一個文化應該是要作為文化部致力的目標而不是太衙門化"},{"start":11215.828,"end":11217.83,"text":"我發現這一個1970年代的時候1970年的時候台灣的運營中位數是19.3歲2040年是52.4歲落差非常大"},{"start":11243.268,"end":11244.269,"text":"1970年65歲上占人口2.9%2040年是30.1%那年齡的14歲以下1970年是39.72040年是10.2"},{"start":11257.629,"end":11283.825,"text":"部長看了這是國發會的資料 這不是我編的所以呢各位就是翻天覆地的改變那我這個大概立法院來破百例啦我發現我們政府所有的部會都停留在1970年代的思維在制定政策那我要看看文化部是不是也這樣子所有的部會部都在歧視高齡者"},{"start":11285.191,"end":11310.562,"text":"我們幾乎90%的預算都在衛福部其他的部會只要超過60歲叫做清廷點水而且那一部分小小的部分也是配合衛福部所以我剛才講為什麼60加以後何去何從基本上是被我們政府放棄的一群人我不曉得有沒有被文化部放棄所有的部會這個我在今天沒有時間談每一個部會我都溝通過了"},{"start":11311.962,"end":11317.387,"text":"我們來等一下今天的重點基本上60歲以上現在台灣超過60歲有600萬人這600萬人我們的政府大概都是為60歲以前的社會來打拼一旦過60歲以後"},{"start":11330.117,"end":11356.102,"text":"我要等一下問一下文化部委員會做了什麼事基本上就是一片荒漠沒有橋沒有路沒有水沒有電自己走過去自生自滅自求多福等到你倒下來以後給你長照這個基本上是我們現在的現況描述但現在有600萬人而且未來這些人會超過人口的一半到2050年這邊會佔人口的一半"},{"start":11359.956,"end":11381.99,"text":"已經在眼前的我們的政府都完全視而不見為什麼會視而不見呢我問了每一個部會他說也不是我故意的比如說勞動部定是中高齡說那中高齡幾歲他說45歲我說45歲會不會太寒啊出國念書回來都40歲工作幾年就準備輔導待退啊"},{"start":11384.577,"end":11407.969,"text":"但是這個不是我規定的阿他上面規定的後來我問到了陳建仁院長他說也不是他規定的後來大家歸注的原因就是文化這就是我們的文化那文化部又說這不是我們的事那這是誰的事神仙的事喔我們看文化部文化部做什麼去年的預算高齡預算"},{"start":11410.629,"end":11422.461,"text":"只有3500萬僅佔文化部預算的0.2%但是你也不用 這個不是你的責任因為你剛來以前你看對高齡者有多麼的"},{"start":11423.53,"end":11423.67,"text":"接下來﹗"},{"start":11440.715,"end":11459.862,"text":"大概你到書局看的只要高零的都是這些書籍啦但是你看到好萊塢都已經發現現在的電影的主流都交給壯世代看的所以呢你看最近這幾年都很多的懷舊跟父母妹創造了阿湯哥衝映來的最高的票房"},{"start":11464.623,"end":11492.296,"text":"這裡有大商機啦!我們在座文春月蔡董事長有看到嘛!對不對?要往這裡啦!不是全部都年輕人!這邊倒了年輕人也沒有未來了啦!好接下來所以呢這一個高齡美學我們有一個叫壯世代有一個叫壯時代壯風格希望文化部能夠創造壯時代壯風格高齡美學因為明年就進入超高齡社會了"},{"start":11493.836,"end":11511.262,"text":"文化部重中之重,我們要把銀髮族翻船成為壯世代那這個有很多完全不一樣對銀髮族來講他就是養生養病養老但是對我們來講他有美好的第三人生會帶來對整個社會非常全面性的影響"},{"start":11512.822,"end":11535.319,"text":"我們用大數據可以看到如果你輸入的是銀髮高齡大概長出來的那個大數據銀土大概就是這些數據如果你輸入的壯世代是這樣子完全不同但是同一批人你有沒有去挖掘這些人事實上就叫做戰後嬰兒草戰後嬰兒草全部進入60歲了這一批人所構成包括部長你也是戰後嬰兒草"},{"start":11536.62,"end":11539.382,"text":"為什麼大家都沒有在做,連我來自廣告界,廣告界不會做60歲以上的廣告"},{"start":11560.731,"end":11580.165,"text":"只會那種啊,夠白酒啦,夠滾滾啦,然後大概就這些廣告而已其他全部不會做,為什麼?因為沒有這一些數據我們基本上把60歲以後當作準備把它放在儲藏室準備報銷的一群人這一群人未來會佔人口一半"},{"start":11581.328,"end":11581.348,"text":"韓國電影"},{"start":11594.312,"end":11594.432,"text":"接下來"},{"start":11618.345,"end":11646.561,"text":"我也跟部長告了我在立法院成立了壯士在政策及產業發展促進會63個立委跨黨派的立委加入兩百個位學者已經成為現在立法院最大的次團這個是不分黨派大家共同支持的所以希望文化部在這裡扮演的重中之重的角色那所以對因為你是真正懂的這一個懂的這一個而不是我們在這個雕塚小技武文弄墨"},{"start":11647.341,"end":11658.91,"text":"的這個另外最後一個我要提醒一下最近發生的事情因為部長再來我先跟你告一個狀最近那個文創館我去質詢他因為今年龍年龍年台灣的這一個"},{"start":11662.998,"end":11665.28,"text":"臺灣館還出來捍衛指我們是大陸抄襲臺灣的後來我發文指詢之後當天他就道歉"},{"start":11689.757,"end":11708.943,"text":"當天才要向廠商道歉所以呢你看就是必須要立委這樣子去去後面的跟著的所以呢我也在這裡跟部長你告個狀我不曉得文化部底下有多少這種事情有多少這種事情你剛來的時候你應該要清查一下因為如果文化人心速不振"},{"start":11710.529,"end":11710.769,"text":"希望這個部長加油"},{"start":11740.053,"end":11748.456,"text":"謝謝你的指教好 謝謝謝謝吳春成委員我們接下來請范雲委員謝謝林益景召委有請部長好有請李部長"},{"start":11762.335,"end":11769.257,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了歡迎你來我們立法院那因為今天是第一次質詢那也是要跟您講我想您可能有知道了我也是您的就是創作的一個讀者到一個就是觀影者包含永之聲事館之珠還有小畢的故事等就是您投入的不管是文學創作或者是後來的影像"},{"start":11787.142,"end":11799.85,"text":"我想我們都受惠良多那新電影我們也是跟著一起成長的那所以很高興您擔任這樣的位置那因為剛剛已經很多人問了很多問題我今天其實是三題我覺得對您來講應該不會很難那第一個我想問的是跟步道的相關的事情"},{"start":11807.955,"end":11833.957,"text":"因為那天很高興看到您參加清理步道的步道師頒獎協會我想您很關心想在這邊跟您直接問一些他們的重要訴求第二個想問跟兩廳院票務的一些相關的改革最後想從文化政策看您知識怎麼看待文化政策裡面的性別主流化部長您也是清理步道協會的發起人對不對"},{"start":11837.04,"end":11856.052,"text":"是對18年前18年前那也謝謝部長您還沒有擔任部長前就致力於這個我覺得跟我們的自然景觀然後是一個手作步道的技術的一個保存有投入心力那我也看到您跟我都有去參加今年的他們的榮譽步道師的獎項那您應該非常了解他們做了4年"},{"start":11859.494,"end":11881.687,"text":"是民間用自己的力量在保存我們的手作步道自然工法跟古道那貢獻真的很大那我想您現在成為部長那不知道是不是能夠加速一個工作就是我們千里步道協會要倡議應該要修正文資法的施行細則"},{"start":11882.688,"end":11900.111,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11900.211,"end":11924.656,"text":"就是傳統知識跟實踐的範圍內我下面框起來在漁獵農林木後面加一個足錄誇號手作步道就可以那如同其他的航海立法及相關祭祀等都可以讓國家一起來參與積極保存手作步道的修復記憶那不要讓千里步道一直用民間的力量在推廣那不知道部長"},{"start":11925.456,"end":11930.283,"text":"是不是可以承諾可以開始競速研議修正這個施行細則呢?"},{"start":11931.925,"end":11957.212,"text":"謝謝委員因為這個跟我個人過去做了18年那個千里步道直接有關係其實千里步道本身就涵蓋了文化還有剛剛提到用手來做我們這次我參加頒獎典禮非常感動就是他頒給三種人第一個是個人一個客家人第二個是一組人在澎湖修那個戶"},{"start":11960.554,"end":11983.874,"text":"第13個是一組原住民把步道當作是個祭典對連儀式都被肯定所以基本上是個有形跟無形的一種文化才那全體步道其實想傳達的不只是健康走路而已他想傳達的是一個用步道來連結台灣歷史跟儀式的記憶所以您的建議我當然是"},{"start":11984.835,"end":11986.336,"text":"請部長進速推動研議修正,好不好?我再回問您,大概多久可以給我們一個書面報告?"},{"start":12008.773,"end":12025.25,"text":"第二題就像我剛說的,不知道部長有沒有注意到去年12月兩廳院有牡丹亭的售票爭議在網路上非常多我們兩廳院的會員還有就是藝文愛好者關心跟批評"},{"start":12026.851,"end":12045.905,"text":"部長您本來知道這件事嗎?我不知道欸不知道沒有關係喔因為牡丹亭是一個非常重要的表演嘛那白先勇先生一直致力於推動那這當然是好事喔可是我們兩廳院的會員在票一開賣的時候發現核心的位置全部都沒有辦法賣"},{"start":12046.785,"end":12069.25,"text":"那就涉及到就是我們兩庭院跟這個包團機制之間的一個衝突那我後來其實有努力幫忙開了因為我覺得這個對我們文化部就是形象也不好而且這是一個公眾的利益那開了一個座談會所以去年2月的時候有開座談會那當時我們次長也有出席"},{"start":12069.83,"end":12093.324,"text":"大家是有充分的討論知道說這裡面有觀眾過票權益還有團體也有一個售票需求跟他的商業利益如何平衡的問題那所以當天是有討論到其實應該要修正一下兩庭院的票務管理規範那文化部回覆說這個部分呢預計在5月的時候必須要在開董事會的時候才能確定那因為5月底"},{"start":12094.745,"end":12114.737,"text":"還沒到嘛所以我就來預告一下那部長是不是可以瞭解相關的進度幫忙追蹤讓兩廳院這麼重要的一個文化部等於是一個指導他的譯文的場館他的售票上的公共性跟公開透明可以獲得更好的提升呢"},{"start":12116.894,"end":12133.286,"text":"我完全贊成因為你剛剛提到牡丹亭我一下子沒有反應過來可是你剛剛講說賣票的時候突然一整區買不到這個我倒是知道對 因為在網路上就是蠻多人我來上院之前還找過那個高知善董事長跟他請教因為我身邊很多朋友都是做戲劇的嘛他們在賣票為什麼會一整區這樣子包場還是為了他的那個票務嘛"},{"start":12143.434,"end":12170.343,"text":"對我知道他有票物的那個財務的考慮這個問題其實蠻嚴重我想我們會馬上找出一個在他們董事會中提出來這個問題立刻解決好那謝謝因為座談會的時候我們也討論過很多細節那希望5月底能夠就是因為也不斷的有網友問我說我說要關心怎麼結果因為結果沒有出來我們也沒有辦法幫你們宣布那希望能夠在5月底的時候順便"},{"start":12170.823,"end":12195.348,"text":"順利解決然後可以公開讓大家知道就文化部跟兩廳院之間當然是以兩廳院為主他們對這個部分的相關的改革那些請部長繼續關心最後一題時間不多比較大一點那我想我講的事情是我看到部長的施政理念的報告那從文化永續世界臺灣的這個願景到分成四個領域生活"},{"start":12195.948,"end":12210.858,"text":"思想創造跟傳播的文化那我就想到就是性別主流化這個事因為其實從世界台灣的角度台灣這幾年被世界看到了有一個很重要的價值不只是民主而是性別平權"},{"start":12212.158,"end":12228.243,"text":"我也很高興看到就是文化部剛講到巴黎奧運的時候你們的台灣館有邀請我們最近非常紅的盧寶羅的美國變裝皇后秀的尼菲亞能夠去那裡表演我覺得文化部這個主動出席非常的好"},{"start":12229.183,"end":12252.788,"text":"讓世界看到因為他不只是在性別文化上代表我們一個引領前進他對台灣的文化的傳統服裝到創新的部分也投入很深在設計上各方面那我也想問部長是說那可是在您的報告中我比較看不到性別那部長會不會有什麼具性別觀點的文化政策呢"},{"start":12254.542,"end":12281.888,"text":"我個人非常贊成臺灣除了自由民主之外是在性別方面走的很前面包括同性婚姻還有剛才講變裝皇后我覺得它都屬於人權的一部分我們就尊重每一個個體未來我想在許多地方上包括我們請評審也好辦什麼活動也好我們會考慮性平這個部分我在報告上沒有寫但是我個人會很重視這個"},{"start":12282.688,"end":12312.688,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12312.788,"end":12312.808,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":12335.009,"end":12350.691,"text":"﹚"},{"start":12350.771,"end":12374.211,"text":"女性立委比,比如移警委員跟我就是我們是平均高於歐盟的國會所以我們在政治的女性參與是高於歐盟的平均的所以我不知道我們文化這個部分看起來還差異蠻大可是文化從業者女性已經快要50%了所以他們沒有在leadership領導的位置被提拔"},{"start":12374.631,"end":12402.923,"text":"所以這部分也請部長關鍵您的性別主流化的方案是不是也可以設定一個目標看您我們沒有要說馬上達到能夠逐步達到當成是您的施政理念裡面的一個性別主流化好不好性別主流化就是說您的生活傳播各領域裡面都要能看到性別那就像你們這次漂亮初級邀請林菲亞到巴黎奧運的文化館表演好不好"},{"start":12403.203,"end":12413.532,"text":"好沒問題那也請剛剛這三題部長是不是可以在多久內給我們辦公室一個報告呢書面報告看您的時間好了因為這個不同部門吧對一個月是不是一個月可以好一個月那請部長關切了謝部長加油一起加油謝謝好謝謝范雲委員我們接下來部長請回我們接下來請葉元池委員"},{"start":12437.276,"end":12464.611,"text":"麻煩請文化部長謝謝好有請李部長部長好吼委員你好我還是想關心一下那個台灣管理室啦我知道當很多人關心因為我覺得非常不尋常是這一家公司叫碰世界嘛如果他會做出這種抄襲的行為啊代表說他不是一個非常好的公司所以政府不應該很時常很平凡的跟這家公司來往"},{"start":12465.231,"end":12480.001,"text":"但是我們看到這家Bone世界公司從2017一七年開始到二零二四年七八年間光是中央機關總預算他就做了大概七千一百八十五萬的表案這表案的金額是非常龐大"},{"start":12480.962,"end":12505.401,"text":"那跟我們教育文化相關的標案他大概做了2253萬那我知道部長因為你也是新任啊可能你對這過程也不是太了解但這個事情會鬧得非常大你們去了解一下這個廠商他是為什麼可以這麼頻繁的接到我們政府的標案就是說會抄襲而且會抄襲被抓到還不承認還說謊這麼惡劣的廠商我們政府為什麼一直把標案給他做啊部長"},{"start":12510.359,"end":12537.395,"text":"這件事情我覺得抄襲很不對但是硬拗更不對然後我希望這件事情給我們很大的警惕我們整個文化部會針對這件事情徹底檢討我覺得事情已經發生了那我希望這件事情給我們帶來重新檢討我們的標案方式還有重新加強我們的SOP機制未來希望不要再發生這樣沒有回答我的問題啦我是問說為什麼你都認為那麼爛的廠商"},{"start":12539.036,"end":12545.884,"text":"那我們希望你也星光上任三把火嘛那你有沒有去了解一下這麼爛的廠商為什麼他可以做到政府這麼多的表案"},{"start":12547.728,"end":12569.105,"text":"我想因為你剛剛提到說這麼爛的廠商這些字眼我也不知道那沒關係就是有做出這樣行為的廠商如果部長認為他很好的話我也尊重你啦你覺得這麼好的廠商是不是很有抄襲跟硬拗說謊的問題那你覺得為什麼過去我們的文化單位或其他單位那麼喜歡跟他合作"},{"start":12569.825,"end":12594.757,"text":"這點我真的不知道,要是我自己我不會這樣說我建議您是剛上任可能牽頭換序很多但因為這個事情是國人關注的不然不會很多人問你是不是可以去查一下我們已經在查而且會很快這個幾件事情第一個事情要問一下臺文館為什麼在第一時間這個事情發生的時候他是完全採信廠商的說法還在幫廠商說話是為什麼這過程當中是怎麼查的為什麼完全相信廠商"},{"start":12600.984,"end":12610.586,"text":"這點應該誰來回答?可以次長回答嗎?因為我真的不知道該怎麼答這個。那不然你覺得咧?我覺得蠻離譜啊。很離譜嗎?那次長你覺得離譜嗎?你問我個人我就覺得蠻離譜,但是為什麼我不知道。你不知道齁?那次長為什麼?"},{"start":12624.871,"end":12641.577,"text":"這個案子稍微補充說明一下剛剛委員你有提到說為什麼這個廠商可以一而再再而三的拿到文學館的這個數位導覽的案子不只文學館光是中央機關就做了7185萬跟教育文化相關是2253萬台灣館是1259萬"},{"start":12646.035,"end":12671.307,"text":"因為其他機關是如何得標這個部分我不清楚我沒有辦法代為回答那至少在臺文館所委託他的這7年來我們一直委託他做的是所謂的數位導覽的這一塊那數位導覽裡面事實上以前他做的大部分是把我那個這樣因為沒關係那個問題已經過了你只要回答我說你們後來怎麼查的為什麼臺文館第一時間是相信廠商然後幫廠商說謊"},{"start":12674.432,"end":12680.876,"text":"為什麼會相信?你把查的過程先跟我講這個標案裡面最主要他會派駐兩個駐典人員在文學館裡面負責整個臉書頁面的小編還有編輯權那因為在負責這個裡面他同時要做一個所謂遊戲式的導覽你不要講這個大家都知道是我問什麼問題"},{"start":12700.666,"end":12706.89,"text":"這兩個註點人員在文宣團工作因為同仁他就是單純的問註點人員說這個圖案是不是你自己做是不是你自己畫的那這個註點人員告訴我們的同仁說這是他跟他們美合作的所以是原來台灣館在查這個過程是這麼的粗糙"},{"start":12729.645,"end":12746.819,"text":"就是說他自己抄襲不想承認告訴你們台灣館你們台灣館就完全採用他的說法出來幫他硬拗這個很誇張好不好這個第一個非常誇張就是想要息事寧人就是想要大勢化小就是想要掩蓋你們做不好的地方"},{"start":12747.6,"end":12763.42,"text":"第二個我想請教一下有沒有因為這件事情去查一下比如說這個廠商曾經經過的標案或者是說你們文化部狹下其他有關於文創產品可能是廠商自稱原創但是有可能涉及抄襲的有沒有開始著手去查"},{"start":12763.84,"end":12792.859,"text":"有有查了幾間?查了多少?準備要查多少?那我們現在就至少蹦世界所呃成辦的這7年內還有沒有其他他們所提供的圖案這些圖案是不是原創的有沒有什麼那你們怎麼查?會不會又是叫那個小編來問一下說欸是不是是不是不是不是相信你會這樣查嗎?我們就會利用所謂以圖查圖的這個方式先做一個出面的所以你們有查的方法嗎?但是你們沒有用嗎?第一時間就是想要演示嗎?這是我們實質的部分"},{"start":12793.98,"end":12821.261,"text":"請教一下現在被抄的那個匯圖師他已經要跨海提告請問一下到時候如果說有訴訟費用或者是有賠償問題這個錢誰出如果台灣管必須先面對這個中國匯師如果還有任何的提告那如果就產生了一些費用我們匯轉了跟蹦世界這邊來求償是你們要去跟他求償那如果說他要脫產啊他要用什麼方式規避的話那是不是最後全民買單"},{"start":12822.706,"end":12837.058,"text":"因為這個部分我們已經正式跟地檢署那邊提告了,然後所以這部分,廠商如何被限制行為的這個我們就靠司法這邊來...那我問的問題是說,你他現在是跟台灣管球場嘛,對不對?"},{"start":12839.168,"end":12843.773,"text":"對,如果說：如果台灣管被判說有連帶責任或什麼責任要付賠償的話：你現在的做法是要去跟這個廠商求償嘛：如果到時候求償不到的話：這筆錢誰要出：你確定求償到嗎：我現在問的就是如果沒有求償到嘛：錢誰出嘛：確定買單"},{"start":12865.988,"end":12893.026,"text":"這部分就看行政上面那就是全民買單啊那就是全民買單啊好然後再來我提醒你幾件事啦因為我們去看了一下台灣館這個標案真的很奇怪啦我昨天我們助理特別去調他們檢案報告檢案報告裡面有很多我覺得蠻特別的地方那請你去查一下比如說那個他們檢案報告書裡面列了很多實際上和他們並不是太相關的標案都把它當作是服務的時機"},{"start":12894.309,"end":12894.369,"text":"第二﹖"},{"start":12920.561,"end":12945.401,"text":"還有齁我們接下來往下看齁剛剛講到那個美國現代主義文學特展開幕及推廣活動規劃執行這是一個標案72萬得標廠商叫開悟空間文創有限公司那總共兩家去投標另外一家沒有得標叫卡福創意設計行銷有限公司然後很奇怪的地方是在於說我們看到文學館在藝文活動平台所列出來"},{"start":12946.567,"end":12956.736,"text":"他的整個團隊裡面在我們用框框框起來開幕活動的地方他就是由卡福創意設計行銷有限公司來做的"},{"start":12957.566,"end":12978.281,"text":"卡芙創意設計行銷他之前沒有得到這個標案但是呢他卻做了這個標案的內容那為什麼呢因為這個標案的名稱寫得非常清楚就是這個特展的開幕及推廣活動就是開幕及推廣可是推廣呢就是由得標廠商開幕來做但是"},{"start":12979.803,"end":13000.982,"text":"開幕就卡芙來做那我就非常奇怪這兩個廠商關係到底是什麼是同一家廠商嗎同一個負責人嗎還是他們的工作團隊其實同一個但是為了要在投標的時候不要讓人家覺得是綁標所以這兩家都來投標這非常的奇怪次長你應該不會知道那麼細的案子啦請你去查一下好不好"},{"start":13002.083,"end":13029.1,"text":"請查一下為什麼會出現這個狀況就是沒有得標的廠商居然可以來做這個案子的其中一個部分這你會不會覺得很奇怪先初步跟委員說明一下的確這個案子我先前並沒有這個細節那剛剛台灣館館長跟我做的說明是台灣館有另外一個標案是對於全年度台灣館會發生的開幕活動還有另外一個標案所以那個開幕活動得標的是卡福創意學院"},{"start":13029.6,"end":13038.67,"text":"但是你自己看開幕得標廠商標案名稱是什麼?美國現代主義文學特產開幕及推廣活動等於你一個開幕兩個標案啊"},{"start":13041.192,"end":13042.133,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員部長請回謝謝"},{"start":13075.097,"end":13077.619,"text":"我們接下來請吳佩奕委員謝謝主席我先請李遠部長還有我們李靜蕙次長好請李部長跟李次長委員好我延續前面委員的質詢內容因為剛剛我提到說"},{"start":13103.967,"end":13113.114,"text":"我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎"},{"start":13135.515,"end":13143.622,"text":"你看我們那個次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是 因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署"},{"start":13161.135,"end":13164.477,"text":"就可以構成藐視國會罪 送院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾 這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據 所以如果說這個罪定下去 我認為未來我們在質詢 質詢台是平行的關係 為什麼 因為我們不需要辯論 有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明 倘若藐視國會罪定下去了 變成上對下的關係 只要有權力關係 沒有辦法好好的辯論"},{"start":13187.91,"end":13192.835,"text":"這個無助於我們去釐清事實那就無助於我們推動事情的進步好 次長先請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑"},{"start":13209.073,"end":13234.937,"text":"然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧"},{"start":13239.162,"end":13241.404,"text":"然後左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是你們兩個當時有一個辯論說"},{"start":13260.476,"end":13260.496,"text":"其實﹖"},{"start":13288.757,"end":13312.399,"text":"我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等"},{"start":13313.18,"end":13336.829,"text":"一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的了解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切"},{"start":13339.81,"end":13357.985,"text":"目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶"},{"start":13364.076,"end":13366.277,"text":"這個我們已經做了吧我們已經做了可以嘛對不對我們採購法就有這樣子的規定我們可以來提報成拒絕往來戶那在這個案件裡面我們要記取什麼樣的教訓呢首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍絕對不能接受"},{"start":13380.066,"end":13382.949,"text":"但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊"},{"start":13404.858,"end":13406.6,"text":"部長了解我的意思嗎?這個畫圖的人、抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是這家廠商在文學館的駐點人員"},{"start":13421.636,"end":13430.864,"text":"大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號"},{"start":13441.934,"end":13445.135,"text":"我們社群帳號的發文有沒有建立一個sop當然在這範圍裡面文化部我們有人員是看過的可是你沒有一個事實查核的程序嘛所以呢這個小編跟你講說啊這個我們沒有抄襲你們就相信了所以這相關的"},{"start":13459.841,"end":13459.881,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":13480.854,"end":13486.515,"text":"社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好"},{"start":13506.579,"end":13535.688,"text":"部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員了解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化來部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論"},{"start":13536.528,"end":13562.399,"text":"有 我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你嗎那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有那個意思只要拿掉楊英峰設計的那個水池"},{"start":13563.419,"end":13577.618,"text":"就認為是去中國化我覺得是簡化的那個過程因為我後來我有去看我發現它是你有到現場看有有有後來我自己跑去看因為這個是我非常熟悉的環境也是我小時候住在附近長大的地方"},{"start":13578.519,"end":13603.669,"text":"他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那來跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦"},{"start":13605.009,"end":13616.725,"text":"那我覺得這點要 我們已經都要解釋 包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去 因為它是違章建築 所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣"},{"start":13618.004,"end":13641.981,"text":"所以會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使破管的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造"},{"start":13643.002,"end":13655.629,"text":"我覺得每件事情發生他都應該回到真相剛剛你講的那個抄襲事件我覺得很嚴重但是我們回到他真相就知道剛剛講到帳號的問題小編的問題他背後的很嚴重的一連串的問題"},{"start":13660.652,"end":13679.888,"text":"包括這個事情是一個我們台灣到底對美學怎麼樣是最美的東西我們的建築物怎麼樣最美這也是一個需要溝通的一個觀念所以我們改革最常遇到的就是說叫你改回來所以部長我認同把它好好的"},{"start":13681.304,"end":13696.393,"text":"說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能夠更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始給部長看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的"},{"start":13699.293,"end":13707.477,"text":"這個戴眼鏡的是部長嘛那裡面呢你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人呢你們就是要有熱情啊要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍勒我們連機會都沒有"},{"start":13719.85,"end":13723.033,"text":"那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力"},{"start":13737.805,"end":13741.426,"text":"但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼"},{"start":13763.547,"end":13768.408,"text":"就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點"},{"start":13784.813,"end":13795.668,"text":"我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好"},{"start":13797.557,"end":13821.52,"text":"我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,"},{"start":13822.361,"end":13832.006,"text":"我覺得一個社會創造力最強的就是在年輕世代將來我會希望我們的文化部是年輕人很喜歡從這邊得到資源的單位好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳佩奕委員部長秦暉那我們接下來就來先處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案有4案請宣讀"},{"start":13851.09,"end":13879.489,"text":"議案進行文化部預計從2023年至2027年執行文化幣政策進行已投入近22億元鼓勵16至22歲的青年體驗藝文生活未來更預計降低領取年齡至13歲以引導資金預注於公益、音樂、圖書、臺灣電影及表演藝術等產業政策利益良善確實有所聞各地表演藝術團隊因不清楚全台"},{"start":13880.149,"end":13901.672,"text":"各縣市文化必使用情形而難以評估每一表演場次是否應規劃青年席次及其數額之窘困。再者,因各縣市藝文事業及人口分布特性,文化部亦有集中於六都消費之現象,不利於推動文化平權,因此未促進資訊揭露規劃文化平權推動方針。"},{"start":13902.313,"end":13921.408,"text":"請文化部一個月內規劃每季提出並公告文化必知使用報告。內容應包括全國及各縣市以領取人數及年齡及比例,以使用金額及比例,使用場域與項目分布年齡及金額及比例,如用於讀律書、電、青年席次、觀賞國片等。"},{"start":13922.89,"end":13936.809,"text":"議員消費點分布數量及比例短期議員消費點分布數量及比例如是及街頭藝人文創展會等其他有利議員通路及團體及工作者設計"},{"start":13938.271,"end":13952.507,"text":"相關行銷方案或促進文化平權之資料數據﹐以發揮文化幣累計消費數據之最大效益提案人陳培宇﹐林一傑﹑任曙然﹑郭益勤﹑陳秀寶吳沛毅﹑范雲第二案"},{"start":13953.148,"end":13977.354,"text":"文化創意產業發展法修正條文於去年5月修正通過其中特別因應社會事件以及產業變化通過了打擊黃牛及投資內容產業因享有租稅優惠的相關條文其中本法有關打擊黃牛之立法條文第10條之一引於112年6月2日施行請貴機關說明該法案施行後之執行情形並針對執行情形提出評估"},{"start":13979.895,"end":13993.301,"text":"同時有關投資內容產業因享有租稅優惠之相關條文．文化部也已於12月1日．已完成發布公司或有限合夥事業．投資國家戰略重點文化創意產業．投資遞減辦法．個人投資國家戰略重點文化創意產業所得而減除辦法．"},{"start":14001.645,"end":14015.26,"text":"及文化部辦理國家戰略重點文化創意產業投資體檢或所得檢除之申請及審核作業要點請貴部提出此法案通過後之施行狀況並針對國家戰略重點文化產業之現行申請狀況"},{"start":14020.946,"end":14039.73,"text":"進行申請類別之分析提案人陳秀寶林盈瑾陳培余張雅玲范雲蘇巧慧第三案請證人於2021年8月合定國家兒童未來館興建計劃作落於新板特專三文化設施用地興建經費更由原先近130億元增至約165億元"},{"start":14042.871,"end":14050.032,"text":"中央政府全職出資興建：文化部更經徵選：邀請張馬龍陳毅林聯合建築師事務所與日本移東風雄建築設計事務所參與國家兒童未來館之設計國家兒童未來館將成為國家級之場館樂觀其成近期文化部督促如期發包與2026年動工興建並於兼顧品質之下加速完工"},{"start":14072.697,"end":14097.808,"text":"提案人陳培宇陳秀寶林盈瑾張雅玲范雲蘇巧慧張鴻祿第4案本月您欠期委員由建於今年113元月案號113校正002監察院糾正指出﹐文化部有關公共藝術設置往往以行政代辦之名行全部委辦之實﹐少數代辦甚至索取回扣與德標公司有重大異常關聯"},{"start":14099.108,"end":14119.738,"text":"成為利益集團統籌與利益分配者：文化部始終以未接獲陳情檢舉為由：對特定代辦壟斷事成以上案件太一樣誓言無睹：文化部專家學者資料庫中委員僅366人：專業層面分布不均且多年未新增：對此文化部正以左手重新檢視"},{"start":14120.918,"end":14149.449,"text":"調整與擴展而有不肖業者已不認熟法取得標案壟斷市場等違法行為文化部稱以要求代辦公司揭露文化部各回應指稱將展開最大規模公共藝術修法基於該糾正案件至今尚未結案文化部應針對糾正內容詳實列出以具體改善成效為完成項目預定完成時間表以及有關大幅修法之草案及進度"},{"start":14150.129,"end":14158.277,"text":"並於一個月內完整回復立法院林倩琦教育文化委員提案人林倩琦、洪孟凱、羅廷外宣的完畢。"},{"start":14162.674,"end":14181.487,"text":"好那我們先來處理第一案喔第一案提案人陳培宇委員有沒有補充意見我沒有補充但是文化部好像有要修改那可不可以請文創司先說明還是文化部這應該部長沒有辦法先說明或是直接請文創司說明好了謝謝好我們請司長說明對對好"},{"start":14192.558,"end":14203.406,"text":"議員的提案我們都會尊重不過後面的推動我們想說是不是在第二段在規劃第二大段裡面規劃文化平權推動方針前文化部一個月內規劃"},{"start":14205.447,"end":14225.594,"text":"每次以提出並公告文化秘之使用報告這個部分一個月可不可以改為三個月那個使用報告的部分是不是加兩個字叫重點使用報告那另外在後面的這個第二段的第五行那個刮糊的部分"},{"start":14226.854,"end":14249.923,"text":"是不是如用於獨立書店、青年席次、觀賞國便等這個瓜糊可不可以就先把它刪除那後面第6段有關於短期藝文消費點的分布數量因為已經在藝文消費點裡面已經有含瓜了所以這個部分是不是可以把它刪除包含那個後面的這個瓜糊的部分以上建議"},{"start":14251.428,"end":14264.438,"text":"好 謝謝文創私我說明一下我想問一下從文化必推動到現在那你們有進行相關的資料整整理的業務報告嗎或者是相關的計劃報告目前到目前為止"},{"start":14266.397,"end":14290.148,"text":"其實往往都是出現了很多新聞弊案例如說有人跑去美甲店啊美髮店用了文化幣或者是有人在各式各樣的市集用了文化幣有相關的新聞輿論出來之後文化部才會做出回應嘛那我們絕對認同文化幣的確是美意而且它也確實促進了很多文化產業從業同仁的有感度是好的但是我們希望在"},{"start":14290.828,"end":14309.104,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":14309.184,"end":14309.204,"text":"議員說明"},{"start":14329.795,"end":14335.338,"text":"非常認同委員的想法但是現在是這樣因為我們現在委員剛提到那些狀況其實它並不是所謂的弊案而是在使用純化的過程也就是說一開始的時候我們放的範圍比較寬而透過適用的方式我們漸漸的去收縮它的範圍"},{"start":14348.064,"end":14373.965,"text":"所以現在會看到更多的事項是不能夠使用文化幣原因在這裡那所以在這裡我們提出從三個月從一個月到三個月倒並不是因為我們沒有在收集我們事實上內部的數據是一直只要有人花文化幣他的數據就一直進來的而是說他現在其實在一個變化的過程包括我們現在採取新的方式電信認證的方式去收集資料所以如果你在一個很短程的資料你的資料的前後你會對不起來"},{"start":14374.966,"end":14398.212,"text":"你會覺得為什麼這裡是這樣那為什麼這裡的資料會所以我們建議以一個比較長的期程以記的方式那用這個方式來提報並且做公告這個部分我們是可以做到的所以市長我跟你確認一下因為你剛剛說的你們一直都有在收集資訊然後也不斷做出調整跟限縮這個部分絕對要給予文化部高度的肯定所以假設在一個月內先給我們前期你們所使用你們已經做出統整的報告讓所有"},{"start":14404.474,"end":14426.932,"text":"所有的教育文化委員會的委員可以作為參考那後續這一個月可以讓你們改成三個月可是之後你們有沒有規劃要定期出相關的文化幣使用報告目前的規劃進度是我們一直認為這些數據因為開放政府的關係他遲早都是要做特定的公告但我們現在的做法是我們在尋求這個"},{"start":14428.373,"end":14434.555,"text":"數據的穩定狀態因為他從去年從18到21今年16到22他所適用的範圍適用的年齡其實一直在變化中所以我們提出來的報告的數字會讓大家非常的confusing這是為什麼我們沒有在現在就提出公告數字那提出這樣的規劃跟未來要怎麼做這個我們可以提出沒有問題只是說請希望"},{"start":14451.48,"end":14477.716,"text":"委員可以同意我們我們現在提出的報告就是一個重點的報告因為他非常的索性而且他可能在前後他所適用的店家會有所不同譬如你在前一個月這個店家在你在下一個月這個店家的數字會改變包括他的營業項目因為現在我們越追越細譬如說現在我們禁止大家做這些直接的購買譬如說你不可以再買這些肥皂啊手做這些東西可是你仍然可以手做那像這麼細緻的差異他在數據的呈現上會非常的"},{"start":14481.078,"end":14481.578,"text":"﹚提出讓委員瞭解﹚"},{"start":14504.983,"end":14526.758,"text":"在第一段提出的時候我們就是針對目前的重點的狀況提出來就是這些分類通通都會在委員也會看得到好所以市長我們再聚焦一下剛剛你們希望我們把一個月內的我們寫的寫法是一個月內規劃每季提出並公告文化壁之使用報告這個一個月你們希望我們改成三個月讓你們比較有長的規劃時間說這個報告怎麼呈現對不對是"},{"start":14530.52,"end":14532.902,"text":"我相信其他所有的委員不會希望看到你剛剛說這麼細的資料其實也是想要看到目前在所有文化創意產業或者是文化產業從事的人員他們如何去看待他們自己的工作或者是他們勞動的結果跟文化幣之間的關係"},{"start":14552.176,"end":14553.577,"text":"對我們來說我們本來內部也會做這樣的檢討好那這沒有問題然後剛剛還有說那個空間的部分要做調整嗎對不對"},{"start":14578.512,"end":14594.006,"text":"關乎裡面的那個那個可以刪掉沒關係不用關乎就對對對對因為我相信你們如果按照剛剛市長說的這麼清楚代表你們應該很多場域的資料都有在收集了那我順帶補充一點因為其實文化幣有那個加碼再加碼再加碼對不對但是你有沒有聽到有很多"},{"start":14595.168,"end":14596.469,"text":"我們看起來對消費者是好的可是卻創造了這個店家他們在結帳上的困境我不知道這個有沒有什麼方法解決啦"},{"start":14618.852,"end":14647.093,"text":"我們來看有什麼更快的方法因為這其實是消費端跟銷售端的不同的差異對消費者來說我當然希望我買完再加碼可是對店家來說你就是製造了我結帳的麻煩但是他也增加了他的收入可能是沒有錯沒有錯那其實在一個平衡這個也許就拜託你們多想一想對我們在想在執行上有沒有可以更簡化的程序是好謝謝市長謝謝那沒有問題其他修改沒有問題"},{"start":14648.493,"end":14665.092,"text":"好 謝謝裴雲委員謝謝次長的說明喔好那我們這一個案子就按照文化部的建議喔我們就修正通過那我們來看第二個案子第二個案子提案人是蘇巧慧委員她也在現場有沒有補充說明的嗎"},{"start":14670.112,"end":14695.144,"text":"我想我的這個臨時提案也非常感謝文化部已經可以同意了那我想打擊黃牛的這個部分以及我們希望能夠在文化創意產業的所得而剪除辦法等等這些都是跟文化產業發展相當重要的我等一下會質詢啦所以就不再利用這個時間既然貴部已經同意了的話好那我就等一下在台上的時候說謝謝"},{"start":14696.505,"end":14698.786,"text":"第4案是林倩琦委員的案子 有什麼需要補充說明的嗎?"},{"start":14733.73,"end":14738.813,"text":"有些修正文字一點點就是按由之後直接接有鑒於今年一一三"},{"start":14740.12,"end":14760.02,"text":"就這樣直接接最後少一個委員會的會就這兩個小地方直接有介於今年那個如果是那個好沒關係爭論爭論爭論委員要保留嗎保留OK"},{"start":14765.701,"end":14773.094,"text":"可是我們通常提案就是我們整個委員會提案所以基本上我們不會前面確實要刪掉"},{"start":14776.001,"end":14784.847,"text":"因為提案人是你,可是就是說你在按鈕就不用再寫你的名字了,所以這個還是文化部的意見比較OK。那就把前面刪掉跟後面加個會,那我們就按照文化部的建議就修正通過。"},{"start":14799.537,"end":14800.217,"text":"蘇巧會委員請質詢李部長"},{"start":14825.732,"end":14854.756,"text":"委員好部長好部長先跟您恭喜今天是第一次到我們的立法院備詢那其實每一任的部長都有他關心的方向像我們鄭麗君部長其實就帶來了公部門結構性的改變領友的部長用基層的歷練把文化部非常多的難題都做了實際的解決使得部長是帶動了文化和產業的結合帶入了很多資金的注入推動黑潮計畫那部長請問你的重點會是什麼"},{"start":14855.636,"end":14864.043,"text":"可以解答嗎?我的重點就是會把整個文化的推廣往下往下砸根啊所以是會特別注重兒少的部分就對了部長我也非常同意這個部分因為過去我們在佈建了這麼多的文化理想之後其實我們會回到最後發現說"},{"start":14875.592,"end":14902.034,"text":"如果能夠從一張白紙的時候就開始把它畫上好的顏色多元的顏色或者是從一塊原始的木頭就雕往正確的方向我覺得其實這個路可以走得更少更正確啦好可是問題是這個要怎麼走呢不然我今天喔如果你看到你的文化部就如同現在是一個新的概念在執行的話那你今天提出的這個業務報告裡面這個方向甚至是分類"},{"start":14902.574,"end":14918.608,"text":"我都非常的認同因為坦白講我今天這樣在翻淺顯易懂而且面面俱到大部分都是我們過去這幾年連我本人都非常重視的部分好那如果你剛剛說兒少的話那我就先跟你請教啊那個公視兒少台的開台你有預計的時間嗎"},{"start":14922.932,"end":14933.083,"text":"不然我只有4分鐘8月20今年就可以了嘛對不對那對於這個內容的部分你著重的方向會是在哪一部分教育比較多娛樂比較多"},{"start":14934.98,"end":14964.051,"text":"我著重在各個方向因為我覺得他應該不要用過去那個以前我們對兒童節目的看法是都是分類嘛對不對非常的分類其實現在的小孩如果看到這麼多的影音節目之外其實之後其實已經不是像我們當時這樣分類任何一種概念都是融在節目裡面的所以部長光是這一題第一題的第一小題基本上就要有新的概念更不要說部長你在提到的校外文化體驗我也質詢過非常多次"},{"start":14964.551,"end":14991.004,"text":"其實你說現在要讓各個小朋友可以去各地的演藝廳、美術館、博物館我也贊成但你現在再怎麼說說到這裡如果只有單就文化部的話我覺得這個還是場館體驗啦坦白講也還是場館體驗所以我會希望能夠跳脫更多的思維你直接跟教育部合作是不是有可能的比如說教育部其實有他規定的一些提出的一些場館"},{"start":14992.225,"end":15012.757,"text":"比如說像921地震紀念館甚至是國家的太空中心這個已經遠超過您現在在這裡提出的展演中心我為什麼提這個因為我們事實上可以有更多的太空文化場域之外可以是太空文化體驗這是你可以做到的甚至是我們一直在說我們從出版界比如說我們一直在講台漫藝人茶几我覺得非常好的漫畫"},{"start":15018.66,"end":15043.217,"text":"﹖"},{"start":15044.212,"end":15048.276,"text":"部長這個一定是好的啦你說對就好了快點我生二十五啦對啦對啦這一定好的啦我跟你講的然後後面其實我還有太多比如說出版產業界你在這個第9頁這邊喔你說為了保障出版社的合理利潤喔"},{"start":15060.469,"end":15085.144,"text":"要鼓勵各縣市公共圖書館以7折以上採購這個我也完全贊成質詢多次另外你說要擴大電子書的計次借閱服務的話我也認為非常好因為本席之前推動了公共借閱權過去限於紙本書那看起來有它的困難如果你能夠把它轉型成為電子書我覺得非常好大力給你支持希望能夠徹底的執行做到部長這也可以同意吧對不對對是"},{"start":15086.525,"end":15111.399,"text":"好了 所以我們今天要講4分鐘實在是到底要怎麼講文化政策好我的意思是說部長您的這裡面有非常多的是方針方向我都同意但有很多也是可以執行的具體政策就像剛剛跟您就教的幾個我只講最後一個就是文化和產業的部分其實我們這幾年在文策院的表現非常的突出帶了非常多的資金進來"},{"start":15112.56,"end":15137.467,"text":"企業界產業界已經開始可以感受到火水的進行本身是非常的希望以影視英文龍頭但是後面跟著出版跟著IP跟著動漫等等都可以一起就像你說的協同文策院推動三大電信科技業跨國媒體娛樂集團的合作我們在保有自己文化獨特性的同時一定要讓產業"},{"start":15138.867,"end":15157.22,"text":"也能夠同步進行兩隻腳兩軌並行我想文化才能夠真正的落實在台灣的每個面向這是我在看了這麼多任部長之後今天新部長來利用這短短的時間跟你分享我的心得也順便告知未來我質詢的方向謝謝謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝蘇巧慧委員部長請回那我們接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":15175.97,"end":15194.607,"text":"主席很溫柔都會讓我們敬請講不好意思我拿著謝謝主席主席本期想邀請部長邀請李部長"},{"start":15200.066,"end":15225.111,"text":"委員好部長好部長你剛才在答詢當中講了一個讓我很感動的因為我曾經好幾次歷任的部長來我都會跟他講一句話一個城市如果沒有文化沒有藝術這個城市絕對不是成功的城市人民的心中他的生活如果沒有藝術沒有文化那他絕對不是一個優質的人"},{"start":15226.331,"end":15231.517,"text":"完全贊成所以剛剛我感動的是你講了一句話你說我們的教育失敗"},{"start":15244.861,"end":15266.44,"text":"因為沒有上美術課沒有上音樂課沒有上體育課所以藝術文化流失藝術文化流失所以呢等於說如果如此一直繼續下去一個時代對文化的漠視跟侵滅那真的糟糕"},{"start":15267.455,"end":15289.737,"text":"這就是你說的﹖誰會買童書﹖你父母自己本身會喜歡﹖你才會去買﹖生教、研教很重要﹖家庭教育、社會教育、學校教育﹖這是要三方合作﹖所以就因為你講了﹖你很直白地說教育是失敗的﹖"},{"start":15290.598,"end":15312.212,"text":"所以我們要怎麼做所以我感動的是你可以在文化部長的這個口中直白的講出目前台灣的現象我們要怎麼做所以呢接下來我們既然有這個默契我們要好好的來推動所以我們看到呢這四年執政"},{"start":15313.359,"end":15340.554,"text":"的難題我相信現在大家就定位請您來擔任我們的文化部長但是我們也看到您以了這個資深作家大家非常尊敬還有從目前副院長鄭麗君副院長她以前也擔任過部長從政委史哲先生她也擔任過所以在這個新任的內閣當中我們有三位"},{"start":15342.239,"end":15371.281,"text":"前高院的文化部長所以讓我們信心因為就正如你說的你喜歡你懂你才有辦法做事所以要請教共推的文化立國是未來的目標嗎請教部長當然是所以在這樣的情況之下我們又有人說台灣文化產業發展的方向到底是什麼部長你要怎麼推動"},{"start":15373.795,"end":15400.152,"text":"因為產業本身是相關聯的剛剛提到如果是用影視音做產業龍頭的話它事實上它涉及到非常多的音樂出版等等我想是一起做就環環相扣的一個東西是環環相扣是一起做當然現在的回答呢沒有那麼細目但是原則是扣在一起的所以我也請你把你預計要怎麼做順便資料給本席"},{"start":15401.293,"end":15412.862,"text":"我們一起好好地來努力那當然在文創的這個產業方面我們還是要有內需的市場對不對所以在這個情況之下我們看到113年度的預算裡頭文化創意產業"},{"start":15418.045,"end":15435.889,"text":"發展的部分你編了7000多萬來辦理這些的推動那同時在我們近10年當中我們看到我們看到整體的文創產業外銷的比例部長外銷的比例好像這樣幾下最後一層"},{"start":15439.79,"end":15450.518,"text":"而且這一層還高度集中在少數的次產業裡頭所以在這樣的情況之下我們6年來整體的文創產業外銷的成長率他是不如鄰近國家韓國我們也真的差蠻多英國也差蠻多所以部長在我們整個文化產業我們要如何的來提升這一個競爭力"},{"start":15468.052,"end":15493.333,"text":"因為我們推估了國發會給你推估全國總人口數到159年他會減了大概二到三成所以內需會少人但是我們外推又不到一成在這樣的情況之下這個挑戰是蠻大的所以我們要怎麼樣來協助我們的文創產業可以提升他的國際競爭力部長"},{"start":15495.635,"end":15516.514,"text":"基本上你一定要找到台灣本身跟人家不同的東西包括電影類型或者文學創作或者繪本你一定要找到自己跟人家不一樣的不然你回答到這裡就有點喔要有特色喔他不是在爭第一喔他是要創造世界的唯一喔"},{"start":15517.755,"end":15532.769,"text":"這個才可以蓬勃發展嗎?這個論點認得嗎?沒有錯,因為我們跨出一步就是要世界第一對,所以剛剛你也回答說你希望由產業來發展但是部長,你現在是部長了我們有資源"},{"start":15533.925,"end":15554.525,"text":"政府有資源要怎麼樣去支援分配這個推動很重要 對不對 對不對所以我也希望你將文創產業要如何提升國際競爭力你也請順便資料方案給本席好不好最後一個議題因為是延續性的大家非常關心黃牛票的問題"},{"start":15555.868,"end":15579.943,"text":"在歷任的部長本席都一直一直一直的跟部長在討論所以部長各類的詐騙犯罪層出不窮那我們文化部這邊打詐準備好了嗎當時我們討論出在你接的上任說一個月內邀請相關單位來討論我們也希望"},{"start":15580.888,"end":15592.638,"text":"也希望您接續上來這個議題黃流票的議題因為本期不希望在我們的藝術文化還染到了這個詐騙哇 這個讓人家會傷心啊 對不對部長文化藝術不能如此嘛我們5月23日會召開跨部會的一個協調 這個事情我們一定要想辦法解決"},{"start":15604.481,"end":15626.897,"text":"5月23日我們也希望能夠討論出這個方案我們希望黃牛票的亂象要消失還給我們藝術文化一個非常乾淨的一個空間 對不對所以我們也期待5月23日所以我們希望今年才開始的常態化的文化幣"},{"start":15628.246,"end":15646.377,"text":"也有很多人在平台上面在轉售在收購甚至賣假幣的情況所以我們也希望在你們5月23號討論的時候一併把這些納入項目好好的去討論好不好我們期待之喔期待之謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝謝楊崇英委員部長請回我們接下來請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":15662.576,"end":15665.679,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請部長委員好好 部長好我要請教部長一下如果社區提出一部電影稀為說謊無罪成為教育影片你接受嗎對不起 你剛才講哪一部影片"},{"start":15686.397,"end":15705.105,"text":"例如,你接受嗎?虛偽說謊的,變成一個教育的影片你接受嗎?沒有在PPT裡面,我想要請教你這樣子的我沒有完全太懂你的意思"},{"start":15706.67,"end":15708.652,"text":"所以我們說我們要把就是法"},{"start":15723.49,"end":15753.49,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":15753.71,"end":15770.786,"text":"就是沒有在PPT裡面因為我在質詢的時候就聽到很多所以就是要問一下為了保障新住民的文化平淺文化部積極推動多元文化的交流通過文化交流的學習還有就是讓我們更多元但是在"},{"start":15771.807,"end":15778.537,"text":"而我們的社交裡面呢我們都一直在去推動但是我上次有問過因為上個部長說他要推動到現在為止我還沒有看到說我們有新住民的"},{"start":15788.55,"end":15796.252,"text":"議員推廣及社區營造參與的計畫到目前為止還沒有看到所以不知道是說我們的社區營造的文化發展的計畫是有把這個計畫納入在裏面還是說我們今年有跟其他的過往的年就是有分開的"},{"start":15811.725,"end":15827.436,"text":"昨天已經公告這一點了昨天已經有公告所以說有另外的就是跟往年一樣是有另外一個計畫嘛是不是好所以因為在我們的社造在105到現在"},{"start":15829.577,"end":15846.88,"text":"因為我也是在各個社區發展去演講去分享因為我有得到一百年的文學獎的第一個新住民得獎所以呢我看到很多社區都是補助大家跟我們反映的經費很少"},{"start":15847.521,"end":15866.851,"text":"又讓我們社區做很多還有說有很多的產品他們就是手工做好了但是沒有一個平台也沒有一個地方讓大家可以把這些的文物推廣出去請問部長我們未來有沒有為我們的社區設立一個就是讓大家有這樣子的創作也有一個平台也有讓更多的社會民眾看到這樣"},{"start":15876.232,"end":15896.138,"text":"我其實非常重視這個新住民包括社區營造我身邊也蠻多的朋友是新住民我也參與過新住民文學獎你是德國第一名嗎是其實我非常覺得台灣的文化裡要有新住民的文化參與之後會使我們台灣的文化更壯大這點請你放心"},{"start":15898.649,"end":15905.236,"text":"好所以我們希望就是說不只是這樣就是我們看到的就是每一個縣市的審查都不一樣所以希望說我們的審查就像我們的這個審查跟這個縣市的審查每一個審查的制度"},{"start":15916.688,"end":15924.054,"text":"還有就是專業的委員我們這邊都不一致希望我們文化部再有一個專業的小組還是說我們有一個機制讓每一個縣市的社區再去申請的時候就是會收到"},{"start":15931.96,"end":15932.16,"text":"我照顧"},{"start":15949.195,"end":15968.52,"text":"我想臺灣非常需要新著名的文化加入我們從食藝住行還有文學創作我剛才講過我當過評審是是是我們社區也是一樣因為社區也希望我們讓我們部會可以更公平也創造一個多元文化的共融的一個平台這樣好謝謝部長期待"},{"start":15973.442,"end":15993.845,"text":"好謝謝蔓玉珍委員部長請回我們接下來請邱志偉委員邱志偉邱志偉委員不在我們請林柱英委員林柱英林柱英委員不在我們現在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請高金素梅委員"},{"start":16002.952,"end":16006.065,"text":"謝謝趙偉我們有請李部長好有請李部長"},{"start":16008.134,"end":16034.421,"text":"部長早安委員好從早上到現在您辛苦了還沒用餐還有在我心中您是永遠的校長小野校長我沒想到我們是老朋友了我們會在今天這樣的場合我們互相見面那我今天會對你的第一次質詢呢我們想要來一起跟你探討一下因為只有四分鐘的時間多元文化"},{"start":16035.781,"end":16044.052,"text":"請問一下部長您是怎麼看待台灣所謂的多元文化而多元文化包含了哪幾些哪些元素然後哪些族群"},{"start":16045.236,"end":16070.873,"text":"台灣在很長一段時間是一時獨立的台灣曾經是一個南島民族的發源地所以在跟外面的文明接觸以前台灣是很長的一段時間是原住民的文化甚至於大家對那個當時的原住民的語言跟什麼都不是很清楚所以需要很長的時間調查400年前開始台灣浮出跟世界的文明接觸所以台灣是一個"},{"start":16072.647,"end":16072.927,"text":"臺灣的文化"},{"start":16089.701,"end":16094.865,"text":"部長,我們就以台灣現在的教科書來看,我們把那個族群的界定分為五大類,原住民族"},{"start":16113.661,"end":16133.991,"text":"客家、閩南、外省、新住民所以我們在台灣稱為所謂的多元文化就是這五大族群文化您同意嗎不完全因為外省本身又包括來自整個中國大陸的不同的省份還有閩南其實這樣子分有一點點簡化"},{"start":16136.459,"end":16155.913,"text":"我想請教一下部長就是我們可以看就是文化部裡面他的預算編列反映是他的政策的思想我們來看一下文化部113年度總預算總共是298億元而在原住民族文化事務發展相關的經費只有2億"},{"start":16158.115,"end":16170.229,"text":"僅僅占了文化部總預算的百分之零點七連百分之一都不到多元文化原住民文化預算只有百分之零點七你會怎麼樣形容台灣的多元文化"},{"start":16172.54,"end":16189.872,"text":"我剛剛一直強調預算的編列會反映了政策的思想其實呢我在您今天的這個文化部的這個19頁的報告裡面在推動多元族群文化發展只有第4裡面有一兩個小塊一個就是"},{"start":16190.612,"end":16218.893,"text":"人民會從103年5月起這個設立了文化部的業務平台已經召開了20次的合作會議合作了達118項我在這邊補充說明一下這個就是我建立的平台可是呢建立平台一直到現在從他的預算的結構上面看到好像我們在台灣或者是我們的文化部對於所謂的文化多元這一塊"},{"start":16220.174,"end":16241.166,"text":"好像不怎麼樣文化多元你怎麼看這件事情我瞭解是今年我們編了兩億四十萬九千可能當初的預算因為已經有個圓明會然後電視台可能他把預算編到那邊去了未來我想從文化部的角度我會增加這個部分的"},{"start":16243.527,"end":16264.258,"text":"請問一下這個部長您會怎麼樣在預算裡面把您的理念把你的多元文化的這樣的想法放進去大概簡單的說一下可以嗎?其實包括原住民時常會有一個活動是回到自己的家屋回到自己原來住的地方那我們其實有個"},{"start":16265.319,"end":16265.779,"text":"嗯,好所以所以"},{"start":16286.574,"end":16310.953,"text":"會把預算增加嗎?百分之零點七我想應該可以增加好 謝謝部長您剛上任真的是任重道遠文化部在明年的預算裡面我們希望在審查預算的時候可以看到民時相符的多元文化政策今天的質詢也請部長在兩個禮拜之內提供一些您對於原住民政策預算相關的研議報告書可以嗎?"},{"start":16312.234,"end":16332.719,"text":"因為剩下一點點時間在這邊請部長我知道您這個上任才沒多久要這個整個瞭解文化部裡面的文化也好這個行政部門的執行狀況也好要花一段很長的時間但是呢我建議您啊回去了之後看一下我在3月27號"},{"start":16334.6,"end":16339.686,"text":"質詢前部長史哲1624大系的質詢內容你剛剛也特別帶了這個戲劇來對吧你還沒時間看嘛對吧"},{"start":16344.485,"end":16365.919,"text":"我這個戲剛好沒看過好我花了三個小時看了對裡面拍攝的技巧還有什麼陣容他的預算我都沒有什麼意見但是呢我對這裡面1624裡面的文化部尤其是史哲前部長他的相關的"},{"start":16367,"end":16385.711,"text":"理念和新價值我有很大的意見所以我建議部長您回去的時候也看一下下次我來跟您討論更深入的問題因為做一個文化部部長他要掌管的是整個全台灣的文化底蘊的呈現"},{"start":16386.992,"end":16408.281,"text":"不過在剛剛您回答幾位委員的質詢裡面我看到一個還是非常文化界然後非常有文化氣質底蘊內涵的小野我希望未來你能夠把文化部的氣氛甚至於全台灣的文化的氣氛把它帶到不是一個對立的一個所謂的文化價值"},{"start":16409.602,"end":16434.316,"text":"部長您剛剛幾個回答我都覺得蠻好的蠻給你稱讚的希望您在這邊能夠加油繼續努力然後把真正的台灣這一塊美麗的文化價值核心理念把它真正的呈現在我們要這個文化部裡面要去執行的相關預算而不是而不是用人來管人"},{"start":16435.336,"end":16459.145,"text":"用政治價值來管台灣的文化您同意嗎委員這點請你放心我過去在我的所有工作裡面對原住民的文化我充滿了興趣我不僅僅是原住民的我還講的是台灣的文化的美麗還有它的價值核心您知道文化來自於歷史的底蘊"},{"start":16460.465,"end":16485.044,"text":"所謂的歷史的底蘊就不是切割式的不是輪轉式的轉盤式的而是真正的怎麼樣把這段歷史給找回來然後找到核心的價值理念然後再把美麗的東西放進去人是最美麗的但是呢有很多人把人變得很可惡那這是誰在做百分之零點一的人在操作這些人"},{"start":16486.005,"end":16506.212,"text":"所以今天我很高興您在這邊任文化部部長希望真正把臺灣這塊美麗美麗的核心價值找回來而不是用政治對立的價值可以嗎我跟你深深的期待謝謝希望您回去看1624我的質詢我下次我們再來探討一下OK謝謝謝謝你謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝高金淑美委員好部長請回我們接下來請武力華委員"},{"start":16522.425,"end":16525.607,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長有請部長委員好我們又見面了謝謝部長我很開心看到您來掌舵文化部相信會有新氣象那文化部這幾年一直在標榜著壯大台灣內容建立文化自信"},{"start":16546.892,"end":16557.207,"text":"我相信提到壯大台灣的內容您應該不會否認原住民的文化底蘊是很重要的一個部分對吧"},{"start":16558.462,"end":16584.582,"text":"那我在這邊是想要跟部長就是聊一下因為我覺得在政府部門做這麼多事情的當中有很多很細微的威脅管的部分末梢的部分往往是政府不容易掌握到的那可能是基於我們的法規那我在這邊想要跟您提幾個部分像第一個您看一下這個圖片"},{"start":16587.239,"end":16606.831,"text":"這個是在屏東太武鄉有一個村叫做嘉興村,它叫布勒頂。這個村很特別,因為日治時期當時日本人有在這邊設置一個公益指導所,因為他們發現部落很多人都很會做木雕。"},{"start":16608.032,"end":16616.698,"text":"那我曾經在這個地方服務過但是因為這是一個很小的部落他的學校早就已經分校廢棄了"},{"start":16618.874,"end":16642.147,"text":"我是這個本校泰晤國小的校長所以呢我很努力做一件事就是讓學校有木雕課程所以我們辦了一個展一百年的接力賽過去這一些一百年前的這些先人他們的作品其實很多都被收藏到日本的博物館"},{"start":16643.7,"end":16671.482,"text":"那年輕一輩傳承下來越來越少所以我們希望學校也要來上木雕那為什麼我會從這個開始說起這些年我很難過我看到好多的木雕師你看那個作品那麼棒可是他們過世的時候連一個記錄他們曾經做過什麼的文字手冊都沒有因為家人不懂不會"},{"start":16672.663,"end":16686.762,"text":"那像這個我們有提報他做文資身份但是他沒有趕上拿到他的因為他那時候已經癌末所以只能夠把這個證書送到他的靈堂前面"},{"start":16687.847,"end":16704.563,"text":"那又或者說像這個高富貴那個時候他得癌症他也是嘉興村的他特別做了一個木雕作品跑到那個時候我已經在縣政府當原民處處長他跟我講說這個是他要送給當時2016年當選的蔡英文總統"},{"start":16709.318,"end":16730.775,"text":"他在那邊告訴我說這個代表什麼那個握手是代表將來總統要握到不能夠分階級不能分族群不能分聰明愚笨他跟每一個人的手握到他都要接納但是呢他還沒有見到總統就過世了所以我的意思是說如果我們能夠有一個研討會"},{"start":16733.038,"end":16748.324,"text":"就會有很多的學生學者會去採訪做填調會把他們記錄下來那我在這裡是要跟部長您說謝謝因為我上一次幾個月前"},{"start":16749.324,"end":16763.281,"text":"我有來質詢這個部分那謝謝我們文化部的同仁文資局有找台灣公益研究中心會在今年的12月會辦理一個原住民公益的研討會"},{"start":16764.602,"end":16785.937,"text":"也會去針對這些木雕村木雕博物館來去做一個發展所以我這個部分要先跟部長您提所以接下來我要講的就是像是我們的步道師您應該很清楚他們也逐漸凋零啊可是步道是要成為文資保存者還沒辦法呢"},{"start":16786.838,"end":16799.045,"text":"因為依照現在的法規先要有步道的文資身份步道師才能夠具備文資身份可是原住民的古道有幾條啊"},{"start":16800.222,"end":16827.202,"text":"可是我們的步道是能等嗎所以這個部分我希望部長這個功課就交給您你想想看我們怎麼來完成這件事好不好那又例如我們要去做這個我看到我們的施政理念文化部的重點有再造歷史場域有歷史與文化資產的維護這幾年我們看到哇舊好長好不容易一棟做起來老七家加固做起來"},{"start":16828.303,"end":16847.005,"text":"可是我要說的是好多的部落舊來義舊古樓舊排灣舊好茶好多老七家我們有一點要跟時間賽跑欸這些多麼美在崇山峻嶺中而且這幾年原住民都喊給我一條回家的路"},{"start":16848.513,"end":16862.558,"text":"政府也很重視這些過去的古道他怎麼串聯怎麼恢復所以在這邊我就是特別也希望給部長這個功課您可以想一想現在既然是重點政策但是我們是在跟時間賽跑能不能錢多一點"},{"start":16866.72,"end":16890.819,"text":"經費編多一點讓他們跟時間賽跑的這些文化工程能夠快速的建立起來還有一個功課要給我們的部長主席不好意思再給我一個功課就是我們的地方藝文場館我們看到你們有活化的計畫可是我要去講的是私人的部分您看一下這個是一個阿里的杜文喜這個是我過去把他搶救的"},{"start":16893.641,"end":16913.828,"text":"他沒有文物館他家人很希望有文物館但是我們找不到文物館又例如這個是一個排灣族三寶工藝館他這個是琉璃珠之母他每個月花兩萬五的租金在內埔的水門去做一個工藝館"},{"start":16915.248,"end":16931.573,"text":"他是靠賣琉璃珠維持但是他說人家房東要漲房租要把他趕走他也很希望能夠有一個自己的公益館那例如在南投布農族這個黑黑股的支部伯伯"},{"start":16932.193,"end":16952.398,"text":"﹗"},{"start":16952.518,"end":16970.843,"text":"他現在失智,他的家人竟然拜託我們說能不能夠找人家把他的木雕全部賣掉希望讓他治病,他也需要有一個文物館所以我要講的是說,壯大台灣的內容,原住民有太多的東西可以貢獻給國家"},{"start":16972.903,"end":16977.247,"text":"希望我們這一些末梢我們看不到的地方我們都很願意來幫忙大家帶路希望呢能夠真正的去把我們的這個文化去奠定起來讓台灣可以跟中國不一樣讓世界看到台灣那部長這是我想說您新上任給您出一點點新的功課那希望我相信您的理念"},{"start":16999.986,"end":17006.908,"text":"你的價值一定可以帶領我們的文化部去注意到這一些更需要幫忙的地方好不好非常非常贊成因為我小時候一出生我爸爸就保存了非常多的那個原住民的木雕跟畫所以這個對我來講是成長中根深蒂固的記憶希望我們的經費可以多編列一點去幫助好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":17029.039,"end":17034.363,"text":"主席好,各位官員,各位委員,大家午安。是不是有請部長?好,有請林部長"},{"start":17055.738,"end":17073.82,"text":"委員好部長午安首先恭喜您來擔任我們的這個文化部長那您是一個創作家也是相當很多人景仰的這個創作家那您在有你的作品勇之聲藝文有提到勇之死若是能喚起無助的勇士"},{"start":17074.421,"end":17097.781,"text":"永之生,那麼永之時就有價值了所以我認為說您來接任這個文化部的部長一定可以為我們台灣的文化的創新來做打拼不過要先請部長看一下以下這些圖這個是520賴總統就職典禮的主視覺的對照就您這個資深的文化人的角度你會不會覺得這些的這個圖案都很類似"},{"start":17098.422,"end":17124.539,"text":"他們的畫風是不是風格以及他的設計概念跟元素是不是都很類似我相信今天有很多的委員有請教請部長回答一下這個問題剛剛有人問過如果我是來這樣做如果你問我做我不會這樣做但是你說他抄襲抄襲本身是有一個那個鑑定方式是好謝謝部長因為我還沒來不及說抄襲我說我個人也不一定說認定他是否是抄襲"},{"start":17125.66,"end":17133.806,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":17148.903,"end":17164.173,"text":"非常清楚而且我們已經進行了著手調查我要跟部長報告的是因為臺灣我們現在還是有非常多的廠商需要來去做政府的表案那這家廠商叫做蹦世界數位創意有限公司他是在民國"},{"start":17165.194,"end":17180.39,"text":"一百零二年創立的可是他在過去的時間都沒有拿到政府的標案他只會一到一百零六年蔡英文政府上台了以後才開始取得政府的標案我來幫大家統計一下他在一百零六年的時候的這個標案的金額大家可以看到"},{"start":17181.351,"end":17197.565,"text":"在可以查到的金額是1400多萬但那時候他的資本額其實才400萬然後他在這幾年從106年到113年他總共得標的金額是7100多萬那讓大家最不能接受在去年的112年的展覽數位內容的採購案裡面他一開始來下一頁"},{"start":17208.186,"end":17219.932,"text":"他一開始就是被認為說他有抄襲大陸的會師的創作可是第一時間這個蕭副館長他第一時間是否認的那請問他為什麼從否認變成是他後來認為是有抄襲請部長回答"},{"start":17225.8,"end":17243.271,"text":"這個其實我前面已經講過我覺得台灣的文化裡面最不好的一件事就是他不能夠接受失敗也不能夠接受自己做錯事情所以第一時間想要去遮蓋它我覺得這個遮蓋比前面的抄襲還嚴重這點我在前面已經非常強調過"},{"start":17244.312,"end":17268.932,"text":"好 謝謝部長我覺得這樣的行為非常的不可取那我針對未來希望不要有這樣的事件來做發生因為他這樣的招標的招標案就本席得知他是限制型招標所以就部長而言他是否有其他的廠商來去做投標這是第一個問題第二個他為何要用限制型招標他有什麼一定要去限制的理由嗎不是最有利標為什麼要限制型招標"},{"start":17271.442,"end":17274.024,"text":"對,這是我要問部長的問題是他到底要限制什麼東西,因為他一直過去連續得標,而且"},{"start":17286.24,"end":17311.302,"text":"好那我請市長回答好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝市長跟委員報告這邊所謂的限制型招標是相對於我們不是用最低標所以我們還是一個公開讓廠商可以來提案經過評選經過委員會的評選之後所選出來的這邊的限制型招標並不是我們直接委託蹦世界這跟委員特別做一個說那請問有沒有其他廠商投標"},{"start":17312.373,"end":17318.118,"text":"有一百一十二年基本上是從一百一十一年的標案做後續擴充那在一百一十一年的招標裡面是有兩家廠商來進場競爭的好謝謝所以這邊部長不好意思"},{"start":17336.28,"end":17352.923,"text":"所以這邊還是要拜託部長的部分未來像這樣子的事情我們會擔心用限制型燒標是不是有幫廠商量身訂做這些問題還有就是說政府的單位部分一定要查清楚這些很多類似的創作要如何來去做一個"},{"start":17353.664,"end":17377.329,"text":"一個分辨到底是不是很類似還是抄襲的這樣的行為那政府單位的部分第一時間的時候我覺得要先釐清不應該是以護航為主而讓政府的公信力為去做一個這個政府的公信力會做一個喪失的動作那我還是非常相信部長您的新的上任一定就像您剛剛的這個我剛剛跟大家報告這個永之聖這句話我希望就是部長可以為台灣的文創來做一個嶄新的開端"},{"start":17380.43,"end":17385.311,"text":"那未來有任何限制性招標的問題也盡量可以減少謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝張志倫委員部長請回好 我們接下來請吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員不在我們請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在我們接下來請林倩琦委員"},{"start":17420.258,"end":17424.105,"text":"謝謝張偉 那麼我們就有請李部長小野部長好有請部長部長首先我想給你拍拍手謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":17433.921,"end":17459.659,"text":"早上我聽到本黨的立委同仁有跟部長的對話有一件事我非常的感動我們也知道在許多的藝術項目裡面如果能夠從這個藝術的本質裡面得到感動我想是一件很真實的事情早上我們也有立委同仁這邊跟您提到有關中正紀念堂當然很多件事但是談到儀隊的這個部分"},{"start":17461.76,"end":17477.738,"text":"您這邊的一個講法回應我覺得對這件事情非常的感動你說他們是這樣被挪進挪出的從以他們為主體的考量確實好像是一種功能化的操作"},{"start":17479.32,"end":17491.087,"text":"這個部分我很感謝你有這樣的一個思考不過這個應該是我們議員提到的這樣一個想法我也突然間有了一個"},{"start":17493.471,"end":17506.723,"text":"想法跟建議你也可以聽聽看當然我覺得我們可以問一下這個儀隊要不要看他們對過去這段時間在儀隊操作我想他們可能沒有那麼多的時間去想我們討論的議題但是"},{"start":17509.505,"end":17523.62,"text":"如果不是移情委員問,我也沒有特別去注意到這裡面的儀隊,因為我們以前可能注意到國家,對不起那個國父監獄館,那或者是中央夜市,那那個就如同您講的,因為它在戶外空間的這一段時間的一個"},{"start":17528.325,"end":17541.993,"text":"在生活經驗上對你來講是很特別的所以我覺得您的講法也很不錯但是議員這邊我覺得他提到這個思考那您可以或許在這個做法上也是可以有這樣一個"},{"start":17544.174,"end":17561.409,"text":"可以試試看,想想看所以今天這是我剛才早上聽到非常感動的一件事不過我覺得大家的論述跟想法都值得來討論所以我覺得做實際的一個情形上如果這個儀隊覺得在戶外跟室內我想他會有不同的一個文化的展現"},{"start":17562.39,"end":17582.446,"text":"不過這就看整個部裡面的操作不過您也提到你不希望形式變成文化可是這個文化某一些形式它確實就會變成文化不過這個部分我們可以在文化的內涵上來做一個思考所以今天其實我們對您都非常的期待因為您確實是有專業內容的一位部長"},{"start":17583.266,"end":17599.373,"text":"所以我想在專業內容如果能夠有我們文化部的同仁一起來努力的話應該是會達到很不錯的一個成果那我也期待在文化部的一個定位上還有未來的事務推動上可以有一個推移變"},{"start":17600.293,"end":17612.767,"text":"好,那也很感謝昨天那個徐次長代替您來這邊來跟我做一個這個拜會沒有機會跟他講到話那我在這邊有一些這個想法想跟您這邊做個溝通"},{"start":17614.776,"end":17642.952,"text":"剛才您在您的業務報告裡面不離會同仁確實是有做一個整理難怪他們真的跟你拍手我相信他們應該跟你有一些對話然後做了一些整理那把過往的一些業務確實依照您幾個點做了一些呃呈現那也比較可惜3跟4沒有機會講得太多那我一直很期待能夠再繼續聽但是您剛才講到的部分你很期待一個人的思想文化能夠被呈現"},{"start":17644.392,"end":17669.687,"text":"我相信每一個人都是一個靈魂的個體很多靈魂的個體他或許會造就一個時代會造就一些趨勢那如果文化部就像您所講的是一個藝術文化創作者的平台那我相信那應該是文化部未來非常好的一個定位所以我們在媒體上有看到在您這邊講對文化部未來的一個做法跟想法"},{"start":17670.347,"end":17685.51,"text":"那但是過去的文化部門都讓我們一直感覺到而且監察院這邊有提到好像感覺是壟斷浪費然後戰地為王的小圈圈那在這幾年很多人的感覺啦都有點像政治文化的一個"},{"start":17686.511,"end":17707.222,"text":"我不要說操作啦就是每個人都對自己成長的經驗期待分享給別人但是如果分享的比較讓別人有壓力的話確實他也不是大家之福所以政治是眾人之事那兩個人或幾個人就會產生一些政治行為所以一群人可能就會影響到很多人的生活文化"},{"start":17707.762,"end":17731.522,"text":"所以我想我們的政治文化已經在這幾年陽明國際我想不用多說了那我想剛才很多的委員在這邊執行我想政治文化不見得是你未來的一個重點就我們是藝術人的一個內容專業上我們都期待可以讓我們個體的靈魂有所展現那讓我有一點能夠自我發展的空間那我們也不要擠壓別人要跟我們"},{"start":17732.102,"end":17732.342,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":17758.473,"end":17785.981,"text":"藝術藝術藝術藝術藝術藝術"},{"start":17786.101,"end":17790.504,"text":"我非常認同您這件事因為我曾經看過一部電影讓我嚇一跳就是說這是某個城市的電影節"},{"start":17808.436,"end":17829.327,"text":"然後我一進入到這個電影院應該是晚上7點然後出來的時候12點多然後我在看的時候我只覺得好像時間有一點點長但是我竟然坐在那裏面就把它看完了出來發現啊清晨了那就是拉斯蒙提爾克Dogma95的一個經典的那個創作者那這部片子叫音樂風雲有機會希望能夠跟您在這邊再做個討論那如果有機會的話那這個是content的部分"},{"start":17837.072,"end":17865.31,"text":"所以我也期待您未來不是只有我相信應該不會只是一個歌功頌德的主管我們期待您在未來有很多的作為這樣來講我們講各個年齡世代我剛才也有委員講到說我們希望在文化上有一些出口但是這個出口如果擠壓到不同的世代我想不管你是年輕人不管你是壯世代你都會希望吶喊所以不好意思好大聲"},{"start":17867.311,"end":17891.958,"text":"所以在這個部分期待您可以做到世代的一個交流而不是世代的對立剛才有委員這邊提到那尹志明的部分跟剛才很多您對外省人也有一些看法但是這個詞我或許不太認同但是我也有一些想法但是您的想法跟我還蠻接近的就時間上來講那來的時間上不一樣那選項上可能也有一些不同只是有一點有可能要"},{"start":17892.998,"end":17904.865,"text":"之後想要跟您請教或者您今天可以回應喔您都希望在歷史文化上能夠有一些更重視那我想請教一下那您的歷史文化包含了史前還是台灣的史前還是台灣的歷史"},{"start":17906.502,"end":17926.53,"text":"我的那個歷史觀非常簡單曾經發生在這個島上的所有東西都是我們的歷史而且不應該互相排斥好的謝謝那我相信在原住民的這個部分剛才好多個委員都這樣講了那我自我介紹一下我是國民黨不分區的委員林倩琦那麼我本身也具有原住民的血緣我是原住民阿美族的"},{"start":17927.21,"end":17945.428,"text":"好所以在幾件事情我這邊來給您做一個建議然後也請部裡面一起做個處理第一個文化奧運那上次次長這邊王次長這邊有回應我就是在文化奧運裡面有一些原住民的團體同樣的原住民的團體大家找了很多年輕的特殊的"},{"start":17946.069,"end":17946.149,"text":"獲得獎金"},{"start":17962.759,"end":17989.63,"text":"然後第624我這邊幫剛才克森委員這邊講一下他剛才問您的這個部分是他說他沒有問您內容他要問您標案那在行政上那這個標案你們可能有一個標案可以去討論一下就是說在剛才我們談到很多限制性招標在藝術文化上常用但是有一個標案也就是去處理大家的住宿跟旅遊我相信這個部分有很多人是可以做的但是這個你們也用限制性招標"},{"start":17990.57,"end":18018.866,"text":"第三個剛才聽到業務水下考古不好意思本人是你們剛開始做水下考古訓練的這個受訓的成員但是你們當時開出來的條件我也不知道文化界有幾個人可以有我是因為正好有這個潛水執照然後又在文化界有做事然後我就去參與這個活動然後受訓完之後才發現你們大概有兩個系統然後大概中國的你們用了一些因為很多沉船那我在學潛水的時候老師叫我勾最喜歡哪一項我就勾沉船的挖寶"},{"start":18020.387,"end":18036.801,"text":"所以這個水下考古我不知道這幾年的一個狀況是如何但是第一那個條件太嚴苛了然後你叫文化人怎麼去做這件事你可以讓他參與然後再教他潛水你要他有潛水的資格然後這個可以考量一下那這個兒童未來館剛才蘇巧慧委員這邊有提了"},{"start":18040.283,"end":18044.908,"text":"本席從民國90幾年就找到那一個區塊去當委員然後得到當新北市文化局長的時候還在講那一塊當時是大都會劇院到現在又變成兒童館了不管你們的定位是什麼可不可以把它做好了再來校外教學的一個文化體驗"},{"start":18064.425,"end":18089.139,"text":"剛才您這邊部裡面也說希望在偏鄉的部分能夠去實踐那我這邊提醒原住民的55個原鄉請在比較首要的順位那真的偏鄉啊遠鄉那當然是部裡面可能要注意一下什麼台南的南西啊或者是嘉義的那個內湖啊這些真的是很遠的聽起來雖然現在很多地方都叫做市或縣但是這確實是大家在"},{"start":18091.3,"end":18107.166,"text":"您在這個文化體驗上我很期待能夠好好的排好那這個族群文化的這個部分剛剛您的回應也很好那我只請您在史前跟歷史的部分做一個確認那本席因為經常去走動就跟您一樣那個很高興你也是千里步道的這個發起人"},{"start":18108.706,"end":18135.835,"text":"本席也實在是在國外走了幾千里那正好之前在院的一個質詢上委提出了台灣長步道的一個政策那我想我們很可以來對這個部分就這個部分來好好的有一些對話然後最後呢我想這個我們的政治文化可以引起我們很多的思考那剛才這個有一些委員也提到那大家都用非常簡單的這個講法說對立啊什麼一堆這種很簡單的這個"},{"start":18137.575,"end":18158.755,"text":"此語但是呢就像百分之一的人影響了很大一部分的文化所以我最後一句話就是每個人都是獨特的個體擁有獨特的靈魂那我們做公共事務的是尊重每個人來用他不同的方式來表達但是我們不應該把別人抓進我們自己要表達的方式那他會成為另外一種狀況"},{"start":18161.98,"end":18179.045,"text":"一句話啦就是不要用自卑來成就自信然後也不要用暴力來達到自利那最後我們用這個文化學者李益元的一個論述李益元不好意思李益元的學者往下最後一張對文化學者"},{"start":18184.862,"end":18198.614,"text":"對自然的恐懼我們產生了物質文化對社會的恐懼對他們的恐懼我們產生了社會文化對自己的恐懼產生了精神文化我相信我們的政治文化讓我們看到了這一些那我們在怕什麼?有些東西留下來我們在怕什麼?你可以接受很多人的詮釋我們不一定只要用語言"},{"start":18208.317,"end":18213.564,"text":"for最低道德標準的法律來談所有的文化現象謝謝部長我用阿美族一句話加油"},{"start":18224.862,"end":18241.902,"text":"致謝林倩琦委員．部長請回．我們接下來請何新淳．何新淳．何新淳委員不在．我們請蔡易瑜．蔡易瑜．蔡易瑜委員不在．接下來請黃珊珊．黃珊珊．黃珊珊．黃珊珊委員不在．"},{"start":18243.649,"end":18262.387,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有陳冠廷委員林楚一委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":18263.308,"end":18276.554,"text":"對於委員質詢．要求相關提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分．其相關機關競速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":18283.558,"end":18306.254,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18314.511,"end":18316.752,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18347.152,"end":18347.172,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":18357.932,"end":18360.935,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15935","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15935","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685fb6a56bedfdb3c814f0709a7fb2e74833be8d109af184be4c4b4d9d7c9c808905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-22","start_time":"2024-05-22T08:31:19+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:54:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15761,"委員發言時間":"08:31:19 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在下一張這個是台電齁去年的他的電"},{"start":2520.646,"end":2537.203,"text":"比前年還少,花得少但是呢,他碳排放比增加,增加了一點點那發電的量沒那麼多但是呢,排碳量更大,那是為什麼?"},{"start":2539.777,"end":2567.059,"text":"就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長對其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它transition away就是過度的把它轉移掉那目前國際上也都認知這個天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣還"},{"start":2567.999,"end":2583.159,"text":"在生能源還沒有上來之前他是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉好那排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?"},{"start":2584.855,"end":2609.189,"text":"對,對。"},{"start":2610.18,"end":2637.318,"text":"台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議會定我自己私下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已"},{"start":2640.34,"end":2667.111,"text":"我們環境部開了兩次會議好像也還沒有結果嗎?是不是?正在進行當中因為其實我們的委員他的組成是非常的多元所以要讓大家的意見能夠收斂那現在還正在收斂當中那台電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收攤會是不是電費大家最關心又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?"},{"start":2668.576,"end":2695.329,"text":"我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是"},{"start":2696.274,"end":2719.251,"text":"報告委員其實這件事情其實是我接受訪問我前面講了很多我的意思就是說很多人有不一樣的意見我是覺得是說有些國家大概7比3或是8比2像芬蘭芬蘭那個國家我也去過他們的共識很高那我是提醒就是說我們要是5比5或6比4其實這樣的話上次公投同意何能研議的有580幾萬"},{"start":2721.993,"end":2749.675,"text":"幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180十萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就說不幹那下一張這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍"},{"start":2750.543,"end":2752.29,"text":"那我們河山場那邊的鄉親"},{"start":2755.692,"end":2780.972,"text":"四個鄉鎮 四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障"},{"start":2781.946,"end":2789.753,"text":"所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出聲在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁"},{"start":2791.448,"end":2813.379,"text":"河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看"},{"start":2814.468,"end":2842.478,"text":"那河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的福清,福清電廠我也去看過164公里,直線地址所以對話出事,你又要死啦那如果可以就去看抗爭也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個核能應該是電啦,分配跟佈局各有不同的意見"},{"start":2844.147,"end":2871.232,"text":"好,下一張,這下一張,這個是光電,這是要車上的,冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手這個是最美麗的天際線,蘇貞昌長的,前面一張,你看看有這樣把整個沙坪都擦光光,然後蓋到亂七八糟,你如果要去看你就自己去看,看著你就會脫皮啦"},{"start":2873.972,"end":2899.474,"text":"整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米啦一米你知道嗎一公頃左右一米差不多一年產生130萬度 有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW"},{"start":2903.251,"end":2924.459,"text":"所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋 你知道為什麼嗎加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小"},{"start":2926.192,"end":2926.352,"text":"來 下一張"},{"start":2948.798,"end":2960.856,"text":"這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老皮農場就平坑道旁邊這一片台農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知道我看要擺一個考察我們做得來好可以"},{"start":2962.711,"end":2981.967,"text":"現在要把7百多公頃用4百多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為不賺錢所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒有能源局同意了沒有這個要慎重考慮"},{"start":2983.408,"end":3010.145,"text":"能產生多少電?才400枚400枚沒有多少電所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早上把你打死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來"},{"start":3012.266,"end":3037.105,"text":"這個就是高雄八五大樓北大五、南大五、屏東人在叫我那是差不多就一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有30天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、超洲那一帶下一張"},{"start":3039.611,"end":3047.558,"text":"全球 欸上上一張 中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼 你剛剛講的就是你要減少空汙嘛 這個怎麼辦 部長"},{"start":3050.78,"end":3076.408,"text":"這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個全力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概在屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和"},{"start":3077.148,"end":3101.35,"text":"他比較嚴重的就是這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好還要吃一塊、那一塊還要空水泥、吞酒頭那個要怎麼回復啊?胡說八道我每天都在跑機場根本不可能的事情所以這個我們再慢慢的來討論你看,高這屏東,這樣啦"},{"start":3103.78,"end":3125.232,"text":"三分之一的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在藥又給你堆了,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?"},{"start":3125.962,"end":3147.859,"text":"我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概佔4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導啊要怎麼排檔能減少啊醫療院所因為開刀啊什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣"},{"start":3149.54,"end":3150.942,"text":"接下來請林岳晴委員發言"},{"start":3180.221,"end":3181.605,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":3186.598,"end":3214.878,"text":"委員早部長早歡迎彭部長來到我們中央行政部門服務這是一個很難得的機會我跟你都來自民間我相信在民間我們都是有理想抱負希望為社會來做貢獻那如今進入到中央我們都是肩負人民的請託然後一定要把事情做好那時時刻刻要戰戰兢兢部長你同意嗎非常同意"},{"start":3216.055,"end":3240.714,"text":"那部長我今天有三個問題要來跟您請教如果你的幕僚夠仔細的話應該會跟你報告過去這半年來我們委員們質詢的內容是什麼那如果沒有的話我就提三個考古題都是半年來民眾非常關心有關環境部業務的進度再請部長逐一來做回覆部長第一題判廢"},{"start":3247.124,"end":3274.388,"text":"這個國人比較關心的程度從民生到工業而且更大的問題是在於前幾天不知道有沒有看報紙是目前我們國人罹患肺癌率高過於吸菸所以我們要先針對環境部4月29日預告的碳費的那個收費辦法來進行討論第一個請問部長碳費你的定價最快何時公布"},{"start":3275.636,"end":3300.723,"text":"目前攤費審議委員會正在進行因為他們要考慮到我們所謂的物價等等的這個因素目前攤費審議委員會已經有一些共識了嗎這個部分目前來說的話正在收斂當中所以未來我們會我又特別請我們的因為主席是我們的師次他會加速來進行那最快會是什麼時候委員是不是可以請師次來一個報告"},{"start":3305.102,"end":3320.557,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們大概現在在6月底7月初會再召開費率審議會那在這一次的費率審議會我們已經幕僚在開始計算各種不同的費率方案會供委員們討論我說大概最快什麼時候可能沒辦法很明確的給委員一個答覆因為我們還要看"},{"start":3326.734,"end":3340.487,"text":"這個下一次開會的情形如果下次還是會持續問是要建樹那部長根據草案第5條有增加2.5萬噸的扣除額在我3月14號質詢的時候我就強烈質疑這2.5萬噸的扣除額"},{"start":3343.73,"end":3364.057,"text":"只會涵蓋4949的全國的排碳量請問環境部有考量嗎目前這個其實也要考量到這個高碳排的這個洩漏的這個係數那其實這個也是參考我們鄰近的國家例如說新加坡或是日本他們有的一個做法不過這個還是要到這個碳費審議委員會他們裡面來討論這樣的一個內容"},{"start":3366.918,"end":3368.479,"text":"根據草案第6條,我們透過碳洩漏風險係數值的0.21G是什麼?"},{"start":3375.413,"end":3402.806,"text":"目前這個事實上我們的團隊有參考例如說新加坡、韓國還有日本甚至歐盟的相關的係數那是不是意味著未來台灣碳費從打兩折開始這個不會因為其實報告委員其實這個碳定價它是一個新的經營的模式很多的大的企業我必須跟委員報告我來自民間大的企業早就上路了而且它的碳費比超過300塊有的是好幾千塊"},{"start":3403.406,"end":3423.115,"text":"這就是我很擔心的,因為已經設置2.5萬噸的扣除而又增加打折的機制的話我要問這真的是從能夠達到我們的減碳效果嗎?因為部長目前草案公佈後環境部有掌握可以掌控到全國多少的比例的排碳"},{"start":3423.803,"end":3441.224,"text":"目前這樣的比例大概是500多家然後大概是50%的排碳所以我說碳費只是一部分然後我們未來的我期待的這個費率應該是持續的像一個協力型的之後的往上會越來越高五月初環境部的新聞有說明未來我們的"},{"start":3442.886,"end":3455.318,"text":"獲得那個門檻會從2.5萬噸那個陸續降到1萬噸請問有期程規劃嗎?有規劃期程嗎?目前是還沒有就是有朝這個方向規劃但是時間點還沒有出來還是一樣期待齁盡快齁不是"},{"start":3459.062,"end":3479.678,"text":"有2.5萬噸的扣除了真的就會讓我們覺得事實上是在玩假球那上攤費呢上一次我在3月27號在質詢的時候就有提到果然如我所料那時候我就提到我身邊的友人跟親人去買房子的時候都會讓仲介都會講說因為攤費要漲的話那房價就隨著漲果然沒有錯5月17號報導業者就直接大啦啦的說了"},{"start":3486.383,"end":3509.986,"text":"碳費開徵了所以大家要預期的心理所以使得導致我們大家都在追著這個房價已經造成國內很大負擔了所以部長是不是可以成立一個聯合稽查小組去了解是否有不肖的業者利用我們的碳費來惡意哄抬價格來造成我們的民間的一些困擾"},{"start":3511.289,"end":3535.752,"text":"報告委員其實我自己也去看過房子真的有的確有這個情形喊到大概漲5然後10%左右那基本上呢現在是還沒有開始徵收這些東西這個也不可能馬上就會存在而且呢我們有算過最多最多如果收到300塊的話加上折扣其實是不到1%是可不可以成立一個聯合機場小組去做這些事情否則的話民眾沒有從更多的訊息去知道的話"},{"start":3536.192,"end":3545.423,"text":"很容易就會被不肖的業者去在烘台價錢然後造成本來房價已經夠高了結果造成房價一直往上堆疊"},{"start":3546.035,"end":3573.107,"text":"好,謝謝委員,我這個部分我會多進行公開的宣導,宣張民眾知道那至於要不要集合小組,我再請我們的部內的同仁再研議一下,再跟委員做報告好,所以是不是一周內給我答覆部長第二題來了,這也是萬年考古題關於檢索,環境部到底想清楚了沒,所以部長想有兩題要請教我看部長受訪表示,未來臺北市、尼西亞夜市可能成為第一個禁用"},{"start":3573.507,"end":3582.21,"text":"．"},{"start":3583.598,"end":3610.834,"text":"進塑膠袋的時程是什麼是否會不會先設置示範區目前我的觀察就是說其實現在國人用仰賴每天生活需要塑膠袋的比例真的太高了那當然要生活習慣的改變但是傳統市場或是小市攤其實這樣的要改變非常的困難所以我會嘗試說我們希望找一個很好的示範點像寧夏夜市本身就很環保我們就找他來但是我們要慢慢慢慢的來進行"},{"start":3611.374,"end":3638.422,"text":"其實上次我也有提過就是說不是只有棍子事實上可能胡蘿蔔也要準備好所以是不是有沒有對於積極配合的商家我們有沒有相關減稅補貼政策好這個部分實際上我可不可以請我們的署長來跟委員報告目前這邊我們是想要用一個評比的方式然後把好的這個案例把它拿出來讓大家來這個做一個參考是"},{"start":3640.12,"end":3653.846,"text":"如果只是口頭上獎勵的話我覺得是不太夠的其他的配套我覺得請環境部還是要去想因為畢竟它事實上是最難的第三題也就是最後的一題也就是我過去一直關心的問題臺灣的熱色這幾年都說要減量"},{"start":3657.187,"end":3681.35,"text":"結果越減越多所以請問部長目前雙北的隨帶徵收的政策也證明了它事實上是的確比較有效的垃圾減量的方法可不同縣市推動有遭遇到不同的一些類型的困難請問環境部針對目前的垃圾減量推動隨帶徵收有沒有廣求各界的看法跟做法"},{"start":3681.81,"end":3703.613,"text":"有的這個部分我們其實補助了很多的縣市他們來嘗試進行這樣隨帶徵收那我們做這個環境部有進行一些補助但是有些呢他的習慣的改變不容易所以不一樣的結果但是我們未來呢會加大來鼓勵他們能夠來進行這樣的方式因為隨帶徵收的減量的效果的確是比一般的水水費徵收來得好很多"},{"start":3704.213,"end":3723.209,"text":"是,那也希望你們加快腳步齁。那第二個就是上次我質詢的時候我就提到因為這幾年垃圾文化爐的那個稅收、修導致一堆垃圾暫時滿出來齁那請問部長對於全國那個垃圾無處可去中央做了什麼?"},{"start":3723.989,"end":3743.464,"text":"目前我們的現在正在焚化爐都在進行整改當中預計未來兩三年內就會逐步的完成然後現在有些的確是放在這個掩埋場裡面做處理但是未來等到這個整改完成之後這個容量可以把我們現在這個稍微這個佔氣的這個地方可以進行一個消除所以目前來規劃來說的話是沒有問題的會逐步的減少"},{"start":3748.063,"end":3748.943,"text":"謝謝林月晴委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3783.312,"end":3810.273,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝委員部長請彭部長部長你好感謝聽說您昨天有到我們辦公室拜訪謝謝謝謝你的歷齡可是我們昨天蠻忙的所以我們下次可以再另外約時間沒問題沒問題部長請問您有看賴總統的就職演說嗎有我在坐在這個旁邊附近"},{"start":3812.028,"end":3831.04,"text":"那你知道就職演說啊全文大概是5300個字你知道提到環境啊永續跟你相關的部分有多少篇幅嗎近鄰的部分談到兩次對沒錯兩次但是跟環境部相關的業務啊只有30個字"},{"start":3832.915,"end":3833.095,"text":"下一張"},{"start":3858.569,"end":3885.698,"text":"剛剛林玉琴委員有提到過去半年您都有複習嘛所以過去半年呢許多的委員最重視的就是碳費啊或者是資源啊以及光電啊環評啊等等的能源我也想知道說您在這個淨零減碳做最大努力這是您受訪的時候提到的想請問您的施政施政的規劃為何"},{"start":3887.398,"end":3887.858,"text":"我們會支持你謝謝"},{"start":3915.872,"end":3939.444,"text":"我跟前任的部長常常聊到啦他認為他很無力也很無助這跟你們的預算應該也有相關吧希望委員多支持本席的責任之一也是協助您爭取您最大的資源好嗎好謝謝國發會呢在我們電動機車的部分訂出了一個目標他希望在"},{"start":3942.334,"end":3948.67,"text":"2030年、2035年、2040年部長您知道要達到多少比例的新售比嗎?"},{"start":3949.625,"end":3975.017,"text":"目前這個其實我個人我不能說我個人就是說其實還是需要蓋更積極一點其實在很多先進國家燃油汽車可能2030年最快的2030年都要必須解除但是我們臺灣畢竟環境特殊所以我個人是支持能夠提早進行轉型這是最重要的所以電動機車的部分其實我認為還有一些調整的空間您知道設定的目標是幾%嗎預計到2040年可以到零"},{"start":3979.622,"end":3981.825,"text":"2030年新售比到35%2035年70%2040年100%那你知道現在是多少嗎現在我可能數字我要再查一下"},{"start":3995.746,"end":4020.813,"text":"現在只有12所以我們距離目標還有一大段的距離環境部對於我們的年輕人心中是非常有感的因為大部分是騎機車的另外他們出門也會需要帶環保杯自備的餐具等等等等還有現在很多的時尚都是用循環的塑料循環的衣服等等回收再製作的"},{"start":4021.793,"end":4050.135,"text":"所以您會覺得這個12%一直到我們2030年35%還有一大段的路要走問題是出在哪裡我認為這個就是誘因還不夠然後相關的這個補助的措施或是它的這個充電的這個設備其實也還不大然後另外一個是價位的問題所以這個部分我會未來在內閣的會議因為這個部分牽涉到好幾個部會我會在內閣會議裡面討論到近年的議題的時候特別提醒"},{"start":4051.513,"end":4075.523,"text":"看一下之前我已經問過了環境部有制定過空法裡面的淘汰二行程機車及新購電動二輪車的補助方法發放新購的獎勵金吊詭的是我們運具轉型尚未達標這個補助就逐年遞減甚至在2020年全面取消"},{"start":4077.011,"end":4105.695,"text":"不禁讓我們質疑說你是如何看待自身在推動電動運具轉型的角色這個是因為你剛才講的啊你說你覺得補助非常重要但你看我們不但是逐年遞減而且補助是越來越少報告委員其實因為空屋費過去這幾年為了要好好的改善空屋所以在柴油車的部分花了很多錢所以我記得是說這個有幾年的這個空屋費是明顯不足的所以需要未來委員大力的支持"},{"start":4106.653,"end":4133.573,"text":"還有另外啊本席也要提醒你在2023年我們創了新低使用這個大眾運輸系統所以您剛剛有說到電動運具的轉型可是為什麼你這個大眾運輸系統密度如果沒有做夠的話其實大家是不會去使用它的因此機車在現代人的生活中還是非常的重要所以來補助機車這個部分是沒有辦法缺少的好謝謝下一張"},{"start":4137.349,"end":4153.877,"text":"好,如何補貼可以讓民眾有感我們移動的污染源、空污、氣候變遷、能源一體息息相關但是上一任的部長有提到說這個經濟部呢他們有提出獎勵計畫可是你們跟經濟部是不是連結不夠深"},{"start":4156.689,"end":4167.988,"text":"報告部委員這個其實我未來會加強這個會加強這個我知道這個你有發現問題了大概知道我會努力來加強好那我們看一下下一張"},{"start":4170.154,"end":4195.356,"text":"所以之前部長告訴我的是前任部長他說這個是一個大災問如果他沒有跟經濟部可以配合得很好的話各項政策應該要朝哪個方向來進行他沒有辦法讓民眾還有業者可以清楚的明瞭因此我們現在也很積極的想要協助大家因此我還是希望你可以重視年輕人騎機車的比例非常的高下一張"},{"start":4197.672,"end":4219.088,"text":"2021��2021年統計有八成的民眾表態支持環境部可以入縣本席也想請教部長是不是支持這樣子的想法基本上環境對於我們這個所有的年輕人或是下一世代好的環境才有我們生存的空間也才能健康台灣所以我支持我個人是支持這樣的一個看法能夠讓大家能夠更重視"},{"start":4220.365,"end":4241.021,"text":"聯合國已經把環境權納入基本的人權而我們在野黨早就在近幾年表示我們是支持的可是你會覺得執政黨的態度蠻模糊的嗎目前我還沒有接觸到這方面的是不是要入縣的這個議題但是我個人從我一個過去從事環境的理念來說的話能夠越高的支持基本上就可以更多的認同"},{"start":4243.241,"end":4256.961,"text":"謝謝,我相信環境部長的支持對於台灣未來我們這樣子的議題保護阿等等相關政策走向是非常非常非常正面的不過你也知道這個非常困難阿對所以我們可以一起來努力下一張"},{"start":4258.726,"end":4286.49,"text":"剛剛蘇青雄委員有提到這個光電板你應該知道說環射減核似乎不太需要經過你們對不對?能源署那邊所以剛講到的問題我們可以看到我們52公頃的高爾夫球場可能都需要環屏但是他如果散落的去架設1117公頃的光電板卻什麼都不需要做"},{"start":4287.19,"end":4311.245,"text":"那上次上一任的部長也說他是對於這個很無奈哪您覺得呢目前我們的部分對於這種所謂敏感地區或是失地或是重要的這個保留區其實我們都新我們目前我們師長有定義一個草案我們會在研議當中你有自己到基層看過這樣子的有的確有些部分過去發展的太快有的確是有一些亂象"},{"start":4313.19,"end":4324.889,"text":"對 所以有沒有辦法在一週內可以提出把屋頂型的光電板納入環評來保護臺灣的自然生態的報告委員我可以請我們負責的市長來回應嗎"},{"start":4328.713,"end":4351.195,"text":"跟委員報告那個目前有關屋頂型的這個還是要由能源署那邊進行有關這一些所謂的景觀或生態上面的一些的一個檢核啦那我們環境部大概會比較朝向就是一些敏感的地區或者是剛剛委員所提到的那個比較大規模的我知道因為敏感的是濕地"},{"start":4352.017,"end":4368.469,"text":"我們現在要把它擴大 這個也要開始納入了 不是我們要特別目前是失地但是未來要把那個比較其他的像位在一些敏感區位像野生動物國家公園那以及像山坡地的這個部分"},{"start":4369.209,"end":4390.458,"text":"他的一個相關的規模納進去我們的環評裡面這是我們現在在做的那上次委員也有提案就是說我們的這個草案預計是在下個月6月底前我們會來做預告這個我們現在都在進行中好好那我們之後就期待你的草案然後希望可以再給你們更好的建議好謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4396.117,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。部長。"},{"start":4411.264,"end":4425.689,"text":"部長首先先恭喜那這個也是責任的開始因為環境部的業務真的是涵蓋非常非常的廣那我今天就是就我們部長剛剛這個報告的部分其實我剛剛聽到一個"},{"start":4427.71,"end":4439.686,"text":"部長會去關心就是說這個淹地都丟在這個水溝裡面本席在基層其實也都常常看到這樣的一個狀況那尤其是在立法院其實也是有這樣的狀況在我們在"},{"start":4443.351,"end":4456.758,"text":"好幾個會期之前我在這個質詢台也有特別提到吸煙的這個區域是不是可以有一個固定的一個地方或者是說吸煙室這個其實我覺得都可以去考慮那當然"},{"start":4459.099,"end":4479.675,"text":"不只是這個其實還有很多需要去做的那另外我想請教就是說部長中部地區剛剛蘇委員也有提到這個屏東地區的空汙也嚴重那我想請教就是說中部地區北有這個火力發電廠南有六清那一到冬天的時候其實整個"},{"start":4480.316,"end":4498.063,"text":"﹚"},{"start":4499.124,"end":4515.264,"text":"謝謝委員 中部的空窩呢 因為我本身在中部長大 其實我每次坐高鐵的時候 這個景象就一直常常看到 那中部呢 其實因為他的大氣非常的穩定 所以他其實他的條件跟北部跟南部都不一樣 那未來呢 其實短期內 其實未來 因為我們NASA的飛機剛飛過"},{"start":4516.766,"end":4542.461,"text":"可能在未來這幾個月內對於我們中部還有南部的空污的成因有一個另外一種角度的了解我希望他們可以解決我們一些問題那另外一個控制污染源是最重要的他固定污染源那當然大家熟知的可能有幾個大煙囪那個目前我們是要求一直他持續的減量那但是還有一些移動污染源或是所謂益善源其實包含了民眾的交通或是生活其實都要一直減量那這個我們會來努力"},{"start":4544.622,"end":4560.268,"text":"總是要設定一個目標,就是說未來知道中部的污染源是什麼,那了解原因之後總是要設定一個目標要怎麼去解決。我覺得這個是中部地區民眾時常在抱怨的,就是說空污的這個議題。"},{"start":4561.388,"end":4562.369,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":4580.581,"end":4582.282,"text":"獲得3D跨國空氣污染實驗請教部長除了NASA有這樣的"},{"start":4609.979,"end":4628.998,"text":"這個飛機來做這個空氣污染的這個實驗那未來我們自己本身就是環境部自己本身你們要怎麼做有沒有一個比較具體的一個方案包圍兩個部分一個是這個NASA的飛機呢真的非常難得那希望他這次可以解決一些問題那未來我們跟美國台美的合作會更大的強化"},{"start":4629.819,"end":4656.784,"text":"現在包含的整個垂直面、無人機等等我們都有合作會持續來進行那也希望可以跟從NASA的這個飛機來台灣可以找到一些初步的原因那另外一個呢是委員提到的數位轉型其實數位轉型在民間很多的產業都一直積極在做了那數位轉型呢可以幫助我們決策效率更快也可以讓民眾更了解那這個也就是我觀察到的原因所以其實在部內我有跟我們同仁講我們開始要上一些數位轉型的課程"},{"start":4657.344,"end":4684.87,"text":"甚至人工智慧的課程不管我們的主管在座的主管或是我們的同仁都要一起來學習這個是國人必須要做的事情所以我們希望說新的部長來總是要有一些新的做法新的氣象那部長之前也有特別提到就是說目前這個環境部也有預告就是空氣品質的這些標準那也預告說會加嚴那我想請教部長就是說剛我有特別提到中部地區域的這個空氣污染那其實應該全台灣"},{"start":4685.61,"end":4686.191,"text":"對,所以你要好好做"},{"start":4701.264,"end":4718.149,"text":"對希望PM2.5能夠再降低再降低但是我也跟我們同仁討論說我們可以什麼時候做到現在正在進行各式各樣的模擬我們要以先做得到然後一個理想還有跟做得到兩個方式來進行所以這個到時候我們有成果一定會跟再跟委員報告是"},{"start":4720.01,"end":4723.734,"text":"從這個會期一開始大家就在講課徵碳費之前薛部長也有提到我想請教這個碳費的政策就是說我們什麼時候要制定"},{"start":4744.654,"end":4760.745,"text":"總是新的部長上來之後針對這一部分因為地方的這個中小企業一般的企業其實都非常的關心因為這個都會影響到他們的經營方式那我想請教部長未來我們這個課真的這個碳費你們期程是什麼"},{"start":4761.465,"end":4777.888,"text":"那當然就是說要有棒子也有蘿蔔我們講的就是說要雙管齊下那當然我們另外一方面也希望說那是不是也有這一個可以有負稅抵減的一個方式我想請教部長是未來你進來"},{"start":4779.25,"end":4793.125,"text":"這個環境部之後那應該這個也是要有一個跨部會的合作那我希望說針對這部分是不是可以提出你自己目前想要做的我們環境部目前可以做那也想要做的一個這個目標"},{"start":4794.286,"end":4819.4,"text":"報告委員其實我們目前的碳費是針對大概500家所謂的製造業還有電力業來進行這個碳費的徵收所以中小企業真的不用太過的焦慮一步一步的來設定計畫就可以所以我必須在這邊喊話中小企業真的不要過度焦慮過度焦慮就容易製造一些新的問題出現所以真的不要焦慮那大的企業呢其實現在前面的企業在做但是我個人會關注的就是說有些比較傳統的產業該怎麼辦"},{"start":4821.621,"end":4847.515,"text":"因為他可能一收的話他其實他本身就是很為力的這個部分我們會跟跨部會來進行協調這個就是現在碳費必須要更積極的原因那碳費來說的話他只是碳定價的一個工具而已還有別的工具那我個人認為是我們應該剛剛委員說的蘿蔔我們在哪裡那這個呢有的是收稅有的是發一個菜券所以我們現在正在了解當中也希望可以進行跨部會的協調來促成這個"},{"start":4848.676,"end":4875.973,"text":"我們看到說美國跟日本在這方面好像也做得還不錯那是不是有可能朝著這個方向就是說氣候再捲這樣的一個方向或者是說我剛剛講的這個負稅的抵減我覺得對於一般的這個中小企業或者是一般的企業其實負稅的抵減對他們是更大的誘因所以我覺得說未來可能環境部針對這一部分應該也要有一個跨部會的去會議那要怎麼"},{"start":4876.493,"end":4880.355,"text":"對,報告委員其實這個減碳是一個動作那個都是我們的工具所以碳費只是其中之一那我們未來會積極的從這樣的角度跟跨部會來進行協調"},{"start":4895.205,"end":4920.532,"text":"是,好,那部長今天算是第一次到立法院委員會來做一個報告那我們希望,其實所有的委員真的對你賦予很大的期待因為時常在這個民間也看到你有很多的這個發表那當然就是說有你的這個目標那我希望說可以帶領我們環境部不論是在數位轉型或者是未來在很多的這個議題上面"},{"start":4921.932,"end":4933.817,"text":"能夠有更好的一個做法,讓我們的這個環境能夠更好。好,謝謝委員支持,謝謝。好,謝謝我們的黃委員的發言。接下來請黃正旭委員發言。謝謝主席。有請彭部長。好,部長。"},{"start":4956.015,"end":4971.532,"text":"臺灣本來就是福爾摩沙美麗之島那期待在歷任的部長還有部長繼續領導之下讓臺灣的環境可以維持讓我們的世世代代的子孫都可以生活在美麗之島上面"},{"start":4972.253,"end":5000.149,"text":"那距離當初卓院長在4月19號人事公佈的記者會到現在應該是滿月了吧那當初部長也說會在上任之前要拜訪一些環團請問一下過去這段時間來部長有拜訪了哪一些的環團交換了哪一些意見有沒有初步的一些政策建議可以讓我們先了解"},{"start":5001.251,"end":5017.764,"text":"報告委員其實因為我沒有爭取他們的權益我不方便公開但是我私底下花了很多時間一個一個因為我跟他們講說我還不是部長沒包袱你就盡量跟我說所以我報告委員其實大概例如說很多委員有很多的民間的環團告訴我環評法要來一個總體檢"},{"start":5019.025,"end":5040.74,"text":"公務的標準要再更嚴或是我們的碳費的制度要更快的進行其實我都聽到了所以我報告委員我的包袱真的壓力很大所以我要靠我們的同事我們一起團隊合作來面對我個人認為環團是給我們環境的人是一個很大的激勵我非常的肯定那未來我會持續的跟環團在定期的來溝通"},{"start":5041.963,"end":5060.871,"text":"是,所以有很多的期許當然也背負著很大的壓力不過相信在部長的領導之下應該讓環境部的所有同仁可以一起動起來讓我們的環境可以更好當然大家最關心的還是空屋因為空屋對每天每一個時間我們都在呼吸"},{"start":5061.451,"end":5082.651,"text":"所以空屋的確依照WHO認為說99%的捲口都居住在不是那麼好的空氣品質之下那現在我們的研究都有證實空屋都會造成一些癌症啊或者是心血管一些疾病的風險那剛剛也看到部長的報告其實臺灣在PM2.5就是"},{"start":5085.573,"end":5113.269,"text":"西璇湖維福利這樣的這方面的控制從105年的20的microgram已經減少到112年的13.7那也預計在116年可以降到13這個是整體的這個環境的尤其這個維福利PM2.5這邊的改善的部分我們也知道其實0到35都算是正常範圍超過71當然就非常不好只是他的"},{"start":5113.869,"end":5114.329,"text":"獲得的報告"},{"start":5131.061,"end":5150.847,"text":"很需要再做進步的部分那剛剛部長也提到可能會依照這個不同的縣市做一些不同的一些處理模式那這邊特別請部長再針對於如果我們看到有這樣的分布不平均的時候我們如何能夠去具體的改善當地在這方面的影響"},{"start":5152.109,"end":5169.311,"text":"報告委員其實因為我們現在環境部跟地方環保局都有一個跨縣市的合作所以例如說中部還有南部有不一樣那他們針對一些空污事件的時候都會有一個聯合的一個作業的這個機制來共同來降低這個排放源提醒的機制"},{"start":5169.831,"end":5192.811,"text":"至於說這個源頭減量的部分其實我們在我們的空污房子規劃法案裡面都有相關的進度的安排那我們會持續的來進行但是這個其實最關鍵的就是說要空污減量不是只有固定污染源還有民眾的這個大眾污染源等等生活其實也都有所以這個要一起的這個大家一起減量才有辦法"},{"start":5193.371,"end":5215.089,"text":"是 所以不是只有政府在做相關的努力而已我們希望各界都能夠一起來幫忙對 其實這個報告委員其實這個我個人從民間來我們家裡面這個煮個菜PM2.5說真的有時候會比外面還要來得高很多所以這個其實民眾的生活習慣民眾的瞭解認知如何預防改變這個都很重要"},{"start":5216.974,"end":5221.817,"text":"請問一下部長,我們現在多少以上的AQI就需要發布空品不良細胞廣播?"},{"start":5236.686,"end":5265.488,"text":"報告委員現在是200以上那我其實有注意到這個問題所以我們有請我們的監測師其實研議說在我們環境部的APP我們環境部的APP其實上面對空污的訊息掌握蠻直接所以我有請他說是不是150在我們的APP上面就提醒民眾朋友能夠來注意是因為韓國是150那大家也知道已經設好了報告委員已經設好了就是如果你下載我們環境部的APP空品APP其實150就會提醒你了"},{"start":5266.521,"end":5289.727,"text":"知道目前下載的量或者是相對能夠被民眾所理解跟引用的部分有沒有比較具體的數據可以讓大家瞭解?各位報告因為那個就是在我們環境集中的這個APP裡面那因為部長指示我們已經把只要你在這個區域裡面"},{"start":5291.167,"end":5315.923,"text":"那到這區域範圍裡面空氣品質AQI大概150那它就會提醒但是這個民眾需要去擋開這個提醒的機制那目前呢在我們這個APP有五六十萬人下載那最主要呢因為在空氣那其實是在空位季節會民眾比較關切那西方廣播呢是大概200以上"},{"start":5316.539,"end":5331.572,"text":"是當然這個是季節性會有這樣的問題嘛不過我們有時候也蠻擔心的突發性的空污事件包括我們可以看到前一陣子這個深空大火發生一個很嚴重的意味的飄散"},{"start":5333.089,"end":5350.063,"text":"民眾都感受到了可是我們有沒有辦法及時的去發布對當地來講這是很明顯的一個空無突發性的這些事件那不知道現在環境部這邊有做了哪一些努力需要做如何去配合地方政府的處理"},{"start":5350.623,"end":5370.84,"text":"好,包委員這個包含了例如說深耕大火或南亞塑膠大火其實我們包含了我們的跨私塾都有做一個協調所以我們現在有一個應變的一個機制那任何的一個火災出來往下游擴散的區域配合地方政府提早的預警那都有開始在進行當中所以突發性的部分的話我們改進的非常的多"},{"start":5371.684,"end":5393.776,"text":"好,非常棒因為很多事情就是不怕一萬只怕萬一所以對當地的民眾來講當有突發狀況的時候他需要一個非常迅速而且能夠及時去了解當地發生問題的一些可以如何去幫助自己也可以幫助家人的一些處理模式"},{"start":5394.736,"end":5420.885,"text":"非常感謝部長這邊的努力那往後其實就是要麻煩部長針對這個環評委員組成的多元性因為我們知道其實從環保署的時期第6屆到第14屆的環評委員的名單裡面環境部是因為前幾年才改制所以這個名單相對來講"},{"start":5422.225,"end":5426.301,"text":"只有在第6屆的時候有相對比較多的環團的代表"},{"start":5427.33,"end":5453.151,"text":"事實上部長是可以決定這個每兩年改選一次的這個環團的這個環團委員的名單那這一部分部長不曉得針對於如果對環團代表是屬於這個重要的組成一部分的話那如何能夠讓這些非常熱心而且很願意來協助整體臺灣環境的這個維護的這些環團委員"},{"start":5457.114,"end":5485.707,"text":"能夠有機會進到這個環評委員的委員會裡面去貢獻他們的心理這部分不知道部長有哪一些未來的考量好謝謝委員這個第一個環團我大概明年很像我明年年中我應該是我會由我來選擇定但是我會遵照委員的建議那事實上我會開放等於是我用開放政府的方式讓更多環團能夠來參與環境部或是意見的反應這個部分我用開放政府的方式來進行"},{"start":5487.168,"end":5488.109,"text":"接下來請圖全級委員發言"},{"start":5516.718,"end":5542.906,"text":"好謝謝主席那請我們彭部長請彭部長委員長好首先先恭喜我們彭部長那在這邊請問一下我們彭部長那針對我們彭部長因為你現在接任我們新任環境部長我們還是想要了解一下部長對一些能源政策的看法那部長你認為我們核能它是不是核能核能是不是綠能"},{"start":5544.768,"end":5555.929,"text":"從包委我個人參加那個全球的氣候變遷會議對於核能議題有很多討論核能目前的國際上的認知不是綠能但是它是一個潔淨的能源"},{"start":5557.796,"end":5575.492,"text":"所以認知不是綠能啦但是它是乾淨的能源那我們針對這一部分那所以我們部長好像針對在媒體的部分好像有講說也是傾向支持非核家園因為我是環境部長我只能遵守環境基本法所以就是非核家園"},{"start":5576.152,"end":5603.109,"text":"所以是非核家園嗎?對對那我請問一下那如果針對非核家園的部分那我們能源政策的部分你認為說如果非核家園那你認為能源政策應該以你環境部長的看法應該怎麼去做?報告委員其實這個能源政策是屬於國家的跨部會的這個政策那環境部當然我環境部長有表達我意見的權利所以我如果在閣議院會議裡面我的立場就是說必須要做到安全"},{"start":5603.769,"end":5620.695,"text":"而且要做到核廢料要妥善的處理當然這個是核安會最主要的職責但是我們會特別提醒要做好凝聚全民的共識才可以往下做所以部長說如果說核能能夠做到安全乾淨的話其實你也不反對核能是嗎?"},{"start":5621.295,"end":5644.147,"text":"包括委員其實我個人參加氣候會議歐盟其實他們有一個EU tax money歐盟的永續的分類的投資的指引他其實把核能跟天然氣短暫的變成所謂的可以投資的項目所以您剛才說的綠能是這個意思但是他其實是有但書的目前要屬於比較新型態的核能才有辦法認定為這種綠能"},{"start":5645.748,"end":5660.482,"text":"我個人是覺得是說如果要做什麼動作其實還是要遵照我們政府的指示我希望是可以比較安全然後大家很有共識的方式再來進行對那如果以部長我看你好像有在媒體有接受來講就是"},{"start":5661.403,"end":5677.808,"text":"就是依法邁向非核家園那如果說你目前你說未來的核能是沒有辦法解決現在的問題嗎你有說過這句話那如果不以核能來發電那你認為能源政策應該以怎麼樣來做會比較好"},{"start":5678.748,"end":5705.996,"text":"我們目前國家的能源政策有一定的趨勢的目標例如說像2030年現在新任賴總統的是希望拉到30%左右的綠能那當然這個未來到2050年希望可以到60到70因為這個再生能源其實它不會用到所謂的化石燃料這是全球的這個共識但是核能的話其實每個國家的狀況不一樣所以目前在COPE會議裡面通過的的確是在從氣候變遷的角度"},{"start":5706.676,"end":5706.856,"text":"對,未來還有氫能"},{"start":5735.427,"end":5756.837,"text":"未來還有氫能還有氫能那目前氫能沒有看到那我們現在主要如果以綠能來講就是光電跟風電可是我們知道光電跟風電其實它的成本很高可是其實效益真的不高那我們其實如果說目前核能沒有在用我們現在看得到的其實最大的就是火力發電廠"},{"start":5758.098,"end":5786.017,"text":"那我請問一下我們彭部長我聽說是觀音人是不是沒有我觀音出生我是苗栗人觀音出生嘛出生地是觀音那也算觀音人啦對對對是是所以剛好有在地的關係啦我也跟我們部長來說明一下其實我們整個桃園我們有一萬兩千間有登記的工廠所以也是全台灣密集度最高的工業區那我們在"},{"start":5788.579,"end":5800.893,"text":"臺灣有五大發電廠有一個全臺灣最大的就是觀音大潭火力發電廠目前它有6具機組正在運轉因為電力不足的關係現在"},{"start":5803.075,"end":5826.007,"text":"有7號、8號、9號機陸陸續續也在試運轉我們現在擔心的部分就是說因為其實火力發電它的碳排量一定還是比較高而且你增加更多的機組織是讓我們的空污更嚴重所以我們現在很多桃園尤其是觀音地方的鄉親都說他們都是冒著"},{"start":5827.523,"end":5827.543,"text":"國際網絡媒體"},{"start":5846.134,"end":5874.152,"text":"部長針對這一部分有沒有什麼看法?好,報告委員這個天然氣它的這個排放的碳大概只有煤的一半那天然氣的這個污染呢也遠低於這個煤但是我們未來會注意它會不會有這個臭氧會發生所以民眾擔心的問題呢相對於煤它清燒非常的多所以各位委員可以稍微放心那至於會不會安全的問題的話其實我相信這個能源署或是台電那是他們的這個職責他們會做好嚴格的把關的動作"},{"start":5874.952,"end":5892.632,"text":"好而且我們有2050我看我們賴清德總統也有目標2050是不是淨零碳排嘛對那淨零碳排剛好跟我們剛好我們剛講那個火力發電喔相呼應你要2050淨零碳排可是你又一直在增加"},{"start":5893.212,"end":5895.533,"text":"關於2050的目標,他們認為核能也是他們發展的一個方向"},{"start":5916.805,"end":5944.793,"text":"我現在想的說法就是說可是我們又一直在增加火力發電的基礎然後又說要近年碳排這好像是相違背報告委員其實天然氣它是屬於一個橋階橋階可能很難懂就是一個過渡型的能源等於是未來只要天然氣就是再生能源如果上去的話這個天然氣就可以慢慢的減少所以它是一個過渡型在這個所謂的再生能源還沒有起來的時候所以這個全球大概都是這樣的一個共識"},{"start":5945.453,"end":5962.039,"text":"好我今天要提的這部分就是因為剛好我知道說那個我們部長跟觀音有淵源然後觀音的鄉親對這個空屋真的是非常頭痛然後而且他們甚至還跟我們說他們希望能夠遷春他說因為這個空屋他們反映"},{"start":5962.739,"end":5982.688,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":5982.848,"end":5996.325,"text":"之前一陣子有針對我們淨桃專案也就是說因為飆車族這個噪音影響我們住戶尤其晚上睡覺的安眠那後來張三振市長這淨桃專案"},{"start":5998.66,"end":6017.205,"text":"推出之後成效還不錯 那個後來我有問我們薛部長就是之前的薛部長好像針對這部分預算我們是不是可以增加因為很多的縣市都認為這個聲音照相科技執法移動式這個照相科技執法成效很好"},{"start":6017.705,"end":6035.695,"text":"那部長是不是知道這個事情?報告委員知道目前我們現在正在跟中央整齊預算當中希望未來可以全國大概500多具這樣的聲音造成因為我們民眾的抗議或是陳情其實噪音比例是最高也是最有感的"},{"start":6036.015,"end":6055.879,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":6056.139,"end":6058.221,"text":"謝謝委員支持還有剛剛我有聽到部長有針對SRF好像針對SRF排放標準"},{"start":6074.815,"end":6100.239,"text":"部長好像針對這一部分好像說會去嚴格管制有針對這一部分去做管理是嗎對我們目前第一個是源頭第二個是他在燃燒的過程當中一定要進行這個我們現在有一個預告修正的草案在6月份我們大氣師會提供首先要監測兩個一個是氯化氫還有強化檢查這個大澳型所以這個委員考慮到的可能跟國人的健康疑慮我們一定會嚴格把關做這些事情"},{"start":6100.459,"end":6116.498,"text":"這一部分要拜託我們部長因為據我們了解我們SRF這個排放標準根本跟我們垃圾焚化爐的標準幾乎是一致它裡面SRF這個成分裡面台灣做的SRF這個燃料棒裡面居然有塑膠、有廢輪胎"},{"start":6118.7,"end":6145.237,"text":"很多可以製造代號心的東西都在裡面所以我希望這排放標準部長能夠好好的研議尤其我們觀音又跟觀音有關係所以SRF這三家有三家要設立在我們桃園觀音也是鬧得沸沸揚揚民眾現在一直很關注這件事情我希望最主要針對SRF這排放標準環境部能夠訂定一個能夠"},{"start":6145.877,"end":6160.464,"text":"合乎排放標準,能照顧全民健康的排放標準,請我們部長跟環境部這部分來重新訂定。好,沒問題。好,謝謝部長,謝謝。謝謝圖圈級委員發言。接下來請王育明委員發言。謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。"},{"start":6174.363,"end":6174.383,"text":"委員長,謝謝。"},{"start":6194.455,"end":6218.914,"text":"對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧"},{"start":6222.881,"end":6244.382,"text":"就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現"},{"start":6245.359,"end":6262.019,"text":"事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚"},{"start":6262.591,"end":6277.001,"text":"那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排"},{"start":6278.602,"end":6296.718,"text":"您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題"},{"start":6298.019,"end":6310.496,"text":"好報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說"},{"start":6313.84,"end":6337.608,"text":"不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵"},{"start":6339.449,"end":6364.347,"text":"你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排"},{"start":6365.747,"end":6389.049,"text":"這個部分它的運輸它的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的"},{"start":6390.429,"end":6418.621,"text":"請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎蕭搖來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法"},{"start":6419.261,"end":6440.277,"text":"所以基本上不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標那如果這樣子其實應該賦予更高的位置"},{"start":6440.765,"end":6459.158,"text":"我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你啊因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深啊大家開會大家都白打就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大"},{"start":6459.998,"end":6485.876,"text":"因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情若要辦得成他"},{"start":6487.757,"end":6504.885,"text":"以一個行政院院長之姿他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位"},{"start":6505.485,"end":6531.429,"text":"目前還沒有確定但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是"},{"start":6535.471,"end":6557.005,"text":"告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力"},{"start":6558.066,"end":6574.677,"text":"那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你"},{"start":6575.518,"end":6604.758,"text":"你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈"},{"start":6605.778,"end":6633.676,"text":"中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去"},{"start":6634.375,"end":6653.775,"text":"我從我的立場來講 這個車一定要趕快開 縱使影子價格就是零也可以開 我是認為這是最重要的 因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理 所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行 不過我也跟委員報告 目前的制度 當時《7月17年陰陰法》設下的規定 我沒有辦法決定多少錢啦"},{"start":6654.395,"end":6677.326,"text":"如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎"},{"start":6679.4,"end":6684.552,"text":"跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行"},{"start":6685.543,"end":6707.26,"text":"那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考"},{"start":6710.462,"end":6720.699,"text":"然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議好那現在最大阻力是什麼"},{"start":6721.417,"end":6749.573,"text":"企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的"},{"start":6751.533,"end":6769.298,"text":"不是環境部,是更高層?沒有沒有沒有怎麼會傳出這個消息?我看到了,你有看到吧?有有有,每一個報紙都有有看到那是從哪裡來?因為我們沒有接到這個政策那會不會是經濟部自己講的?"},{"start":6770.449,"end":6784.836,"text":"不會,這個是我們決定的你們決定的嘛,你們人都沒有講那媒體自己,那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COPE會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具"},{"start":6785.516,"end":6804.512,"text":"還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵"},{"start":6805.553,"end":6818.694,"text":"當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本"},{"start":6819.352,"end":6836.916,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成"},{"start":6839.69,"end":6864.769,"text":"那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的"},{"start":6867.022,"end":6887.108,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6887.503,"end":6894.011,"text":"好謝謝王育明委員在這邊做以下宣告等一下在鄭天才委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":6908.455,"end":6927.443,"text":"謝謝主席 本席想邀請部長 已經非常積極 急著趕快要上台了 現在應該是午了吧 以前我們在電視上看到你"},{"start":6928.65,"end":6950.236,"text":"現在我們面對面討論從20號就職到現在我們知道這一個位置是台灣非常重要的關鍵時刻的一個決策而且也是一個執行者因此我們特別要討論到碳費的問題因為所有的產業界大家都非常的緊張"},{"start":6951.676,"end":6969.169,"text":"那原本在第三次會議呢必須要去討論到碳費率的問題但是我們沒有辦法提出所以我們預估會在第四次會議你們的第四次會議會提出會嗎?會不會再演?我也想請次長也一起來會不會?"},{"start":6973.395,"end":6991.567,"text":"會再演嗎?不會跟委員報告第三次來不及第四次會不會?不會不會我們第四次確認我們會把費率各種不同費率的評估方案都提出來在第四次嗎?對在第四次第四次會預計什麼時間?我們現在在調查委員們6月底跟7月初可以開會的時間"},{"start":6992.588,"end":7008.756,"text":"就7月初可以開第1次的第4次的會議第4次的會議那麼也會在碳費率的部分會併案會納入去討論會我們把我們會把那個不同費率的這個衝擊影響評估都一起啊坊間有說"},{"start":7009.756,"end":7037.639,"text":"我們的碳費要收會延後一年在經濟委員會討論的時候那經濟相關單位似乎也有這個方向當然一切要等到我們的碳費率最後決定怎麼樣去做決定因為排版定案是在部長你這邊所以這個進度我們初步有一個瞭解所以因此剛剛部長你說了你希望要多元的工具"},{"start":7039.221,"end":7052.338,"text":"重點結果論你真正要能夠檢量能夠檢才是答案量能夠檢所有的方案都是對的量沒有檢所有的答案都是都是都不好的人你頻頻點頭你也說過"},{"start":7056.348,"end":7083.375,"text":"你會參考攤費的部分你會參考美國的租稅這個遞減日本的發行氣候債券那甚至你剛才說的新加坡的方案綜合世界各國所以因此你要讓棍子跟蘿蔔一起發揮效用這個許了這個方向是很好喔那要怎麼執行呢要怎麼執行呢"},{"start":7084.395,"end":7110.97,"text":"報告委員 這個的確是一個難題因為租稅的減免在台灣對於氣候變遷沒有過然後發行這個氣候拆卷像日本climbing bond他們發了8000多億在2月的時候台灣也沒有過所以我的確現在在說服幾位的閣員我們來研究看看這件事情可以怎麼走部長你談到這裡本賢還是告訴你務實的去做沒錯我們雖然可以拿全世界各國這非常好"},{"start":7111.71,"end":7119.678,"text":"但是你自己根基基本盤沒有好什麼都不用講你今天跟產業對話你預計要什麼時候跟產業對話產業已經好緊張欸產業好緊張欸我怎麼辦我連時間點都要追蹤欸那你什麼時候有沒有規劃你要跟產業對話有沒有"},{"start":7131.95,"end":7143.105,"text":"我隨時都是跟產業在互動啦,報告委員,其實委員,其實真的產業不必在這裡回答都有錄音錄影,你不要隨便回答,什麼叫隨時,現在不是報氣象啊,好嗎,不可以這樣回答的"},{"start":7150.546,"end":7171.149,"text":"你有沒有預估因為你剛就職第二天我也謝謝你就直接就這個張偉邀請你就來那因為這個議題非常重要所以本席是建議你你什麼時候要跟產業來去了解探討因為你首批的碳費徵收你的對象是"},{"start":7173.198,"end":7195.08,"text":"這個排蛋量超過2.5萬公噸的產業所以因此你的徵收對象你的標準你的徵收方式那你要怎麼去規劃中長期你要怎麼規劃這個是你的功課欸但是你的功課你對象你不跟他對談那你去這怎麼辦啊你沒有對象你怎麼執行啊"},{"start":7196.55,"end":7202.755,"text":"你有沒有考慮在你就職之後跟產業對話瞭解產業的需求因為6月7月初就要開第4次會議因為這個議題部長我們之前每一次我們一直很詳實理性的在討論所以我也要把這個告訴你"},{"start":7218.066,"end":7220.047,"text":"會不會考慮跟產業對話?5月10日、5月15日、5月17日、17日上午下午都有,包含電子業、紡織業、造紙業、水泥業,其實要增收500家一定要對話"},{"start":7243.161,"end":7269.102,"text":"因為未來執行是他們一定要對話你的政策一定要能夠落實你制定一個政策沒有辦法落實那這個會社會大亂欸產業界不可以亂欸這是我們的命脈欸報告委員我觀察是很多的大家對於碳費的認知或是碳定價的認知有一些誤解所以我們也希望用這個機會讓大家知道所以你們對話把你們這7場次討論的方向"},{"start":7273.165,"end":7288.517,"text":"產業的需求是如何請詳時順便資料給本席我們一起繼續好好地來協助達到三贏的政策那接下來本席要請教本席要請教就是說能源的政策供電不穩能源配比"},{"start":7289.588,"end":7310.906,"text":"我們臺中的火力化電廠八成是煤雖然地檢第一滴滴滴滴滴我們很期待中部人用廢發電已經貢獻良多了不可以再欺負我們所以在這樣的一個情況之下請教2025年的非核家園這個政策會不會拿出來重新討論請教部長"},{"start":7313.408,"end":7341.034,"text":"報告委員我是環境部長我是遵守環境基本法目前我們的那個環境基本法第23條有定要達成輝和家園的目標但是王前部長也已經說了2025年是達不到的所以不斷的跳針跳針跳針啦跳票跳票跳票所以我非常的期待你來自我們的氣象專家你也素養非常高我對你期待很高"},{"start":7342.354,"end":7364.034,"text":"請教環境基準法第23條也就是非核家園的這個部分在目前我們所需的能源你的立場會不會拿出來檢討我個人認為是因為所謂能源政策是屬於我們的國家的大政是需要跨部會來做協調的你的立場我的立場我是遵守環境基本法非核家園的政策目前社會的需求"},{"start":7365.427,"end":7393.876,"text":"會不會拿出來檢討這個裡面我個人其實認為是說有兩個問題就是說到底我們的能源夠不夠我們的這個提供的夠不夠或是我們需求的夠不夠所以部長你回答到這裡也就是一個政府橫向的聯繫一定要夠我告訴你郭部長說他上任之後他非常負責任要將全國的需電量做一個總檢討報告給國人他認定為核電是乾淨的能源也是綠電"},{"start":7395.716,"end":7410.961,"text":"這個訊息告訴你應該你在媒體上面都已經有看到所以我們希望耳聽八方眼光四方好好的來聽到大家的需求去做正確的判斷好不好所以最後一個結論因為"},{"start":7415.252,"end":7438.644,"text":"賴總統對於近鄰轉型有不同的想法所以你這個會推動近鄰轉型五大策略以及綠色成長策略對不對對沒錯這個也是你擔任部長非常重要的這個工作目標嘛沒錯是不是是那本席也希望因為呢我們看到了這些的報導"},{"start":7439.844,"end":7446.471,"text":"有很多的羞恥但是我們希望能夠有實際的政策跟動作來協助產業協助社會"},{"start":7449.469,"end":7469.559,"text":"讓政府可以達到三贏這是你的必要做的事情所以我在這邊也請你將你認為總統先生所指示的這個方向你預計要怎麼做請詳實的書面資料給本席我們再來一起好好討論好不好沒問題沒問題這個問題非常的大不是沒有問題沒有問題我報告會來給委員好努力加油謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7476.813,"end":7485.482,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員那我在這邊再做一個重新宣告等一下在黃珊珊委員質詢完之後再休息接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":7512.172,"end":7532.921,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。請彭部長。委員長。部長好。非常帥氣。謝謝。我從你的資料裡面看,你也長期在環境保護協會,當過理事長、當過秘書長。"},{"start":7538.211,"end":7560.076,"text":"所以這個應該可以勝任這個環境部的工作當然環境部業務也很廣泛今天要跟你談的是跟這個花蓮、台東的交通當然跟環境有關係環境部"},{"start":7562.013,"end":7573.12,"text":"蘇花安環評在今年的2月20日做了環評。環評的結果是沒有通過,要再補辦環評,要補正。這是113年2月20日。"},{"start":7580.302,"end":7604.138,"text":"然後在5月14日做了第二次的初審只是初審會議然後做了一個建議通過所以這個部分是我要特別請這個部長還有這個次長還有尤其是公務人員"},{"start":7606.515,"end":7634.21,"text":"這個部長我是30年公務人員我也擔任過這個常務的副主委所以我要請這個這個公務人員這個要協助協助因為難免這個環保人員他用最高的標準但是現在的工程技術是可以跟環境保護能夠兼顧甚至"},{"start":7635.774,"end":7655.775,"text":"甚至反而是做了這些工程技術施工更可以環境保護更可以達到環保過去我也常跟這些環保人員對話以前還沒有書法改的時候"},{"start":7656.704,"end":7676.25,"text":"你現在還沒有抒發改的時候,一下也就塌方,一下也就塌方。這個就反而沒有保護。對不對,沒有保護。所以這個部分,我們就舉一些例子好了。我們就以抒發改,抒發改就是已經完成的。抒發改它做的都是最困難的。"},{"start":7677.814,"end":7705.344,"text":"最困難的最危險的做了那現在就是要繼續做這個舒華安舒華安就是說這些這個河倫到崇德這一次那個0403大地震那個就是這個大清水最下面那個有沒有大清水就在這段黃色的這個就是舒華改舒華安黃色的是舒華安要做的是比過去好做的"},{"start":7706.684,"end":7732.813,"text":"比較好做的而且不要那麼這個對環境保護沒有那麼困難的但是這一次的環保房更困難很奇怪難以想像這個就是一個公務人員怎麼樣去善盡說明讓環保人員能夠瞭解同樣的工程在南淮公務都做了結果在蘇花改的又有"},{"start":7733.905,"end":7748.73,"text":"不同的環保人員去發言。所以這個我就不再,剛剛就是另外一個圖了。我們就去做對比"},{"start":7750.292,"end":7775.143,"text":"這對比比較重要蘇花改97年11月10號可行性研究然後99年11月9號完整環境影響評估100年就動工這個是最困難的結果比較快我先講這個蘇花改這一次0403大地震完全無事"},{"start":7776.738,"end":7785.491,"text":"更早的北回鐵路,北回鐵路知道嗎?更早嘛從以前到現在大地震、大颱風"},{"start":7788.237,"end":7808.765,"text":"都沒有大好意都沒有事所以這個部分就是要怎麼樣去讓這個說明的時候他的環保人員就是說不是環評人員啦環評人員總是有意見嘛所以要做好詳盡的一個說明所以這個部分你看我們這個蘇安108年"},{"start":7813.051,"end":7830.641,"text":"12月20日可行性研究本來一估111年結果112年到現在還沒有完成環評的所以這個已經嚴重落後所以這個部分本來好做的結果反而落後這個就是沒有善盡說明"},{"start":7832.81,"end":7850.267,"text":"我們做環保環境部的這些我們的不論是部長或是次長或是公務員要善盡說明讓這個能夠順利可以嗎好可以報告委員這個因為我說話安的時候我還沒有上任可不可以請我們環評司長來進行報告沒關係我們跟他對話過了"},{"start":7858.395,"end":7873.189,"text":"希望能夠做想妥善的說明而且你會是一季七月底請他們公務總局補證資料如果他們提早補證資料我建議你們能夠提早開這個"},{"start":7875.486,"end":7893.011,"text":"環評大會好不好好好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請李燕秀委員李燕秀委員李燕秀委員不在接下來請邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在接下來請黃珊珊委員發言好謝謝主席我請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":7906.189,"end":7931.768,"text":"委員長是部長我看到你自詡為政府的永續長所以今天開始我們就把你當成政府的永續長那我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道你說碳費的時程不可以再拖要先上路少說一點也沒有關係這一點我想問一下除了碳費上路之外"},{"start":7932.878,"end":7954.789,"text":"碳費之後銜接的碳稅你覺得什麼時候可以上路?包括委員其實碳稅跟碳費我們的碳費已經有碳稅的隱含的類似的性質在裡面但是內容還是差很多但是如果以我長期參加COBA會議還有各國的經驗總量管制的碳交易才是釜底抽薪最有效的做法但是這個還要一點時間"},{"start":7956.212,"end":7977.722,"text":"需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度"},{"start":7984.105,"end":8009.966,"text":"我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我的報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EU ETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃我們要做好準備您講的這個部分OK但是碳稅將來2030我們勢必要面對而這個面對現在可能就要開始接軌"},{"start":8010.966,"end":8021.592,"text":"雖然我們碳費還沒有上路第二個部分是你說實際要減碳更重要的是胡蘿蔔沒錯因為現在我們只有收錢企業大概也不痛不癢"},{"start":8022.318,"end":8048.255,"text":"但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是"},{"start":8050.4,"end":8063.889,"text":"現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫"},{"start":8074.022,"end":8100.529,"text":"因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃部長一個建議我們台北市當時我在台北市的時候我們提出了淨零碳排施制條例我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後其實政府應該有一個相對"},{"start":8101.462,"end":8103.003,"text":"獲得最好的方法是財政部的租稅工具"},{"start":8127.602,"end":8145.213,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":8145.313,"end":8145.653,"text":"好,最後一個小問題"},{"start":8168.922,"end":8191.572,"text":"我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面"},{"start":8192.492,"end":8219.759,"text":"這個部分我們希望加入到將來的環評規劃裡面雖然我們電業法是由台電提供電業但我希望將來企業他可能自己也有自主發電甚至有自己要負責自己電力調配的能力否則永遠都是一般的民眾來承擔我們必須要做經濟發展這些電力的衝擊然後發生事情的時候就是我們如果反對我們就是不要經濟發展但是民眾"},{"start":8220.788,"end":8246.285,"text":"全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8249.553,"end":8251.758,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言。我們先來休息10分鐘。"},{"start":8857.773,"end":8880.998,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8886.172,"end":8887.754,"text":"好,我們繼續開會接下來請陳穎委員發言部長好,請趙偉先請彭部長"},{"start":8914.841,"end":8926.859,"text":"首先恭喜您接任環境部部長,有機會來為我們國家服務。今天因為我第一次質詢你,我會溫柔一點。"},{"start":8929.601,"end":8955.256,"text":"謝謝謝謝上個禮拜六媒體有登出一篇獨家報導裡面有很多對於氣候變遷有關的政策思維個人也覺得非常的欣賞、相當的肯定那也希望說部長您可以秉持專業的信念然後堅持的走下去為國家真正解決我們在面臨的環境的問題你覺得這張照片挑的還可以嗎?"},{"start":8956.337,"end":8975.875,"text":"謝謝委員,謝謝那跟你本人應該還蠻接近的那首先我先請教就是環境部總共有多少位文官我印象大概是一千多位啦,約聘顧在一起一千多位你旁邊的要不要幫忙一下公務員有853,聘用人有103"},{"start":8980.885,"end":8988.887,"text":"聘用人員103公務員853預算員853本部文官有多少人?本部文官260人人數最多的附屬機關是哪一個?環管署環管署大概46個聘用的人力總共多少?46位總共全部"},{"start":9009.872,"end":9011.032,"text":"275"},{"start":9012.799,"end":9039.554,"text":"總共275個 您好像少算了好幾位喔 因為我們現在是職員加聘用 其實大概都300位上下啦 對對沒錯 那部長你就是你從來沒有擔任過文官 那過去也沒有真正的在政府機關任職 而且呢就是說你有這麼多的理念要推動 你有沒有覺得說靠文官去執行才有辦法就是做出成績嗎"},{"start":9040.994,"end":9068.255,"text":"我跟我同事包含的施署長我就覺得他們非常優秀而且他們的經驗其實有時候我覺得遠超於我你剛剛說跟誰一起我們各位的施署長在一起他們其實都非常的優秀有些甚至我的學長所以我其實跟他們工作非常愉快那我未來呢會因為我來自民間跟他們想法一定會有一些不一樣那我們會慢慢慢慢的會進入一個新的合作的模式也請委員放心我說部長聽起來也蠻"},{"start":9069.757,"end":9082.554,"text":"樂觀跟積極向上謝謝可是有時候人生未必不如意的事情十之八求如果說文觀假如因為"},{"start":9084.236,"end":9110.154,"text":"我相信大部分都可以跟您合作愉快配合得很好但是假如有有少數的文官在專業上沒有辦法跟上您那但是呢他們在法條上可能比你還熟悉那有可能不是有可能又在過去也曾經發生過就是有可能就是說曾經誤導或者可能誤導部長甚至故意消極抗命"},{"start":9111.255,"end":9130.769,"text":"你不要樂觀過度這種現象會發生是有過的那或者是說在幾個月這個幾個月前升格的時候才剛升上去的這個機關首長自己對於自己的業務都還搞不清楚那面對這樣的問題部長你有能力去處理嗎"},{"start":9132.697,"end":9151.352,"text":"這個第一個是我當然必須要很好的去花時間去好好瞭解各個業務我也會逐步的拜訪我們的這個各個私塾的同仁去瞭解實際上我比較好奇是說你會維持文官的穩定還是說就大刀闊斧的在一定的時間之後進行必要的人事調整"},{"start":9151.992,"end":9163.225,"text":"我首先會了解我業務之後然後一段時間如果有一些職位的調動的話當然一定要必須公務員的方式來進行實際上的業務的狀況來再進行調度公務人員的就是說實際上業務執行的狀況還有表現來進行調度"},{"start":9171.193,"end":9187.049,"text":"必要的時候我想這樣的想法是對的本席也強烈的建議部長就是你要先用到對的人你才有可能把這個事情做對做好所以不然呢"},{"start":9188.05,"end":9216.773,"text":"就是很快你就會知道說為什麼很多的業務很難推動下去那本席也瞭解過您的這個經歷跟專業那環境部業務中可能的這個氣候變遷署、碳費的徵收還有跟您過去這個氣象達人的業務是比較有關係的所以我要在這邊提醒你這個環管署過去叫做這個環境督察總隊裡面的人最多"},{"start":9217.513,"end":9243.369,"text":"資源最豐富那涉及了補助跟地方的政府民意代表有很大的關聯那我希望這個業務呢部長今天你第一次到立法院來那我也第一次跟您做非常良心的建議這個部分希望你能夠多留意特別秉持著沒有比較沒有傷害的原則好好的比較一下"},{"start":9243.969,"end":9262.906,"text":"仔細看看過去升格以前的績效跟這個預算的執行還有在之後在比較升格為屬之後到底是這個業績是變好還是變差那這個是本席給部長的第一個功課好好的去比較一下"},{"start":9263.987,"end":9281.658,"text":"最後呢本席還想跟你分享就是從這個環境經濟學的角度切入碳費的問題是非常好那也希望說部長可以越快推動越好那這個是用這個誘因取代管制的這個做法也是很好的"},{"start":9283.807,"end":9305.161,"text":"因為我過去曾經質詢張子敬及薛部長希望你們能夠禁用經濟專業的人才開放高資等的職缺給他們讓他們為經濟誘因提出更多的配套方案但是目前好像沒有看到什麼成效"},{"start":9308.242,"end":9331.389,"text":"我所知道的這個政策工具除了說部長你有提出這個比如說補助、減稅、低利貸款以外還有這個全額獎金、降低保險費率還有放寬投資上限以及這個碳費減免等等措施但是我從來就沒有聽過環境部的官員包括"},{"start":9332.289,"end":9347.581,"text":"部長跟署長在立法院跟委員討論從來沒有聽過所以呢我也曾經說希望你們可以比照這個地球憲章的精神呢可以多多運用原住民的智慧還有在地的這個"},{"start":9348.302,"end":9348.322,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":9364.789,"end":9389.848,"text":"謝謝委員的這個建議你剛才提到幾個部分關於這個所謂的經濟的部分因為其實國家環境研究院我聊上任之後才發現他不是所謂的行政法人那人力方面他們也非常的缺那他也跟我反映了所以我這個部分我會想辦法來爭取甚至有一些調整的這個空間未來有可能往這個行政法人的方向目前我所知道的這個是有一些好的這個"},{"start":9390.989,"end":9415.78,"text":"例如說有一些研究院更好的我們是希望往更好的方式去邁進我會努力那另外一個委員提到這個原住民其實原住民我參加這個氣候會議那麼多次都有原住民的角色在裡面所以未來也希望如果我去參加各種大型的COP委員也可以跟我們一起我相信未來你在這個委員會常常看到我你就會想起原住民不會忘記了沒問題我哪一族的你知道嗎"},{"start":9421.899,"end":9433.787,"text":"我是北南族,我們這一族就是有張惠妹,然後有胡德夫,有紀小鈞,有這個小陳建年,大陳建年是他的親戚,也是我的爸爸"},{"start":9436.228,"end":9460.76,"text":"對,然後就是我們就是那個金曲歌王的常勝君這樣子你要記住這些好,沒問題好,那感覺今天跟你對談齁這個印象還不錯謝謝委員印象分數還不錯那我希望就是說你未來就是用你的能力跟實力來證明齁然後環保署這個去解決這個環保署以來的這個這個機弊成殼的問題啦齁"},{"start":9465.522,"end":9466.483,"text":"接下來請劉徐廷委員發言"},{"start":9501.482,"end":9526.053,"text":"謝謝主席喔 這個環境部長有請 請學 喔 彭部長部長 早安喔 這個恭喜上任 那今天做一下大方向的政策對話 我們等一下投影片第一個我想要問喔 這個淨零碳排喔 是不是新政府重大的施政目標"},{"start":9527.778,"end":9539.123,"text":"這當然是這是一個延續型的而且是全球的目標我們都應該積極往那個方向走那以這個國內的各生產單位或者是各個碳排大副而言喔電廠"},{"start":9540.902,"end":9563.281,"text":"火力電廠是不是碳排大戶?當然是當然是喔?你們有沒有掌握火力電廠的碳排佔全台灣的百分比跟相關的一些數字?如果以台電的話大概佔了1億噸的排碳量1億噸?全國的總量是多少?我們全國所有的大概是2億7千多萬噸全國,但是不是只有火力發電"},{"start":9564.062,"end":9589.227,"text":"我知道,那就是要含產業嘛以及任何跟相關的部長不錯,概念蠻好的數字這個稱讚一下所以你講只有台電光台電的電廠就佔了1億噸的碳排但是它其實是我們用的電我知道這是難免的事情對不對那你們有沒有包含其他的民營電廠的碳排當然有當然有在裡面所以加起來大概是我實際數字我再給委員報告但是整個大概是2億6、2億7左右"},{"start":9591.087,"end":9606.121,"text":"我意思說臺電是臺電的電廠還是韓民營電廠是一億臺電臺電所以如果還加上了民營電廠的碳排可能會更多對不對更多一些OK好這個那我要再問齁能源政策未來我們在討論能源政策的時候環境部有沒有角色"},{"start":9607.556,"end":9624.678,"text":"也跟委員報告我自己我認為是我要有角色因為我必須遵守環境基本法各項的議題那當然啦這個當然這個就是因為環境的能源的政策其實不是我決定的是一個內閣的決定的所以我很樂意參與我們內閣的相關的討論"},{"start":9626.56,"end":9649.363,"text":"我聽到部長非常積極地說我應該要有角色沒錯部長當然應該要有角色這個本席是來自桃園的立法委員這我要幫我選區的鄉親聲聲冤你可以在這張地圖上看到叫做桃園火力發電地圖它裡面當然不純然都是台電的火力發電廠很多是民營的電廠很多是氣電共生但是我想這些我剛剛特別會問部長"},{"start":9650.664,"end":9676.568,"text":"這些台電以外的電廠是不是也是碳排大戶其實我想答案是肯定的因為從剛剛的數據的問答裡面可以很清楚的知道全國的總碳排量兩億六千兩億兩億多噸對不對電廠佔將近一半所以說如何在能源政策上務實可行的去做調整其實恐怕才是最有效而且快速的達成淨零碳排目標的有效路徑所以本期希望"},{"start":9677.529,"end":9693.649,"text":"這個環境部長在未來的內閣裡面在能源政策的討論裡面不只要有角色而且要有比較大的角色因為即便能源政策由經濟部來主導但是經濟發展現在也跟全世界淨零碳排的這樣子的一個大的趨勢高度相關今天因為時間有限"},{"start":9695.071,"end":9722.092,"text":"我相信未來也有很多關於探權、探費等等的專案報告那個時候我們再來針對這件事情來做討論但那件事情其實跟經濟也有關所以說在討論未來的內閣的施政方向的時候環境部的角色其實是越來越吃重的所以我希望在能源政策調整的時候環境部長要積極的據理力爭從淨零碳排這樣子的一個角度去大膽的建議我們的新內閣務實的檢討現行的能源政策這是我給部長的第一個期許也給部長的第一個建議"},{"start":9722.792,"end":9743.945,"text":"第二個建議是除了總體的方向調整之外我們也希望落實區域的正義啊因為你可以看到這張電廠這張地圖其實北台灣啊整個北台灣大部分的發電重任其實是落在桃園喔那尤其是本期的選區龜山跟蘆竹分別有一座民營電廠正在偷偷摸摸的進行擴建"},{"start":9746.206,"end":9765.179,"text":"這件事情我覺得按現行的狀況來說我桃園的環境負載其實就已經非常高當然我們桃園是工業重鎮這我們理解但工業重鎮難道沒有污染嗎其實就有嘛本身現行的狀況來說環境負載對桃園人來說就是沉重負擔如果能源政策繼續這樣子做然後這些既有的電廠還紛紛擴建的話"},{"start":9767.08,"end":9792.475,"text":"如果我作為選區的立法委員我沒有辦法距離力爭我沒有辦法表達反對的立場那我有愧於這個支持我的鄉親那當然我們希望把格局拉高因為這不是只是我個人的選區利益也不是只是我選區鄉親的利益而是這一件事情已經不再是桃園的事情它不只是桃園的事它也是全國面對淨零碳排的重大危機我不希望這些電廠要被迫擴建然後增加更多的碳排增加更多的環境負載"},{"start":9793.476,"end":9808.741,"text":"所以我高度的期待環境部長在未來能源政策的討論裡面要有非常重要的角色不只是要為這個選區的環境正義發聲也要為淨零碳排來發聲這是我希望部長把這件事當一回事來幫我們距離來主張第二個"},{"start":9810.922,"end":9839.926,"text":"今天我們還除了討論空氣以外噪音的汙染也是本席非常關心的一個題目最近我們大家都在討論這個噪音車的管制那最近也有修法的這些方向從明天開始大概就是以抓改為主如果你改管沒有經過原廠也就是環境部的這樣一個認證機制可以立刻來開罰這樣子當然可以有助於提升取締的效率但是我也要提醒環境部因為以後抓改就很方便警察這個有微星電腦直接檢驗就可以直接開罰"},{"start":9840.726,"end":9867.702,"text":"當然提升開發效率有效嚇阻這個方向本席同意但是我擔心的是會不會未來我們針對改管這件事情你去取締之後會不會該偵測噪音的我們就不做了都丟給警察處理了我要提醒的是不是所有的改管都會有噪音有些噪音並不一定來自於改管的問題所以我要求環境部在這個地方的力道不能因為修法跟方向調整而有所降低也就是說該抓草的還是要抓"},{"start":9868.382,"end":9885.115,"text":"我們針對噢這個噪音取締的人力針對噪音科技執法的預算我希望還是可以看到一個上升趨勢去協助各地的地方政府來打擊這個噪音車的這個問題那未來我們本期也會提出噪音管制法的一些相關的修正希望環境部可以積極來配合"},{"start":9885.796,"end":9888.017,"text":"謝謝委員我會保持委員的意見我會留留參考謝謝謝謝好謝謝牛許廷委員的發言接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":9920.731,"end":9941.11,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長請彭部長好彭部長好繼續牛許廷委員本席的選區跟牛許廷委員是隔壁然後剛剛的那個地圖如果有看到的話林口火力發電廠在林口三部機組火力全開藍莓"},{"start":9944.111,"end":9971.312,"text":"G7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電"},{"start":9973.989,"end":9993.362,"text":"對,這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在"},{"start":9996.447,"end":10023.986,"text":"臺電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實包委員這個是臺電的這個執掌啦這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛剛講臺電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了"},{"start":10024.947,"end":10052.648,"text":"前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到"},{"start":10053.697,"end":10076.798,"text":"那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大"},{"start":10078.519,"end":10100.093,"text":"報告委員其實這個炭牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嘛對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分炭廢您這邊現在有討論到第4次的炭廢費率審議會議6月召開那"},{"start":10103.035,"end":10130.708,"text":"有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在"},{"start":10131.869,"end":10151.41,"text":"六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他立下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全部在你"},{"start":10152.318,"end":10177.066,"text":"但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有試算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好"},{"start":10177.586,"end":10203.402,"text":"你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業也會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部"},{"start":10204.4,"end":10211.737,"text":"每個官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明"},{"start":10215.549,"end":10243.367,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要7場7場對現在已經大概有已經有6場了那明天還會有1場對"},{"start":10245.123,"end":10259.902,"text":"是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議紀錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡"},{"start":10260.582,"end":10282.492,"text":"其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點"},{"start":10282.892,"end":10311.137,"text":"就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年臺灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易"},{"start":10311.937,"end":10340.312,"text":"但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式"},{"start":10341.277,"end":10355.419,"text":"那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎"},{"start":10356.539,"end":10375.357,"text":"是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須核廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理"},{"start":10377.134,"end":10401.327,"text":"這都是問題嗎?好,部長我現在只是說希望我們第一次的一個對談理性、專業我們也希望在您任內的每一天我們都持續用這種專業理性的態度來討論,可以嗎?沒問題,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝吳立法委員的發言下一位吳立法委員發言"},{"start":10403.288,"end":10411.371,"text":"吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員不在。下一位我們請洪承邁委員發言。洪委員請。謝謝主席。請環境部部長。"},{"start":10423.994,"end":10447.526,"text":"委員好部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題"},{"start":10451.528,"end":10469.681,"text":"但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻其實目標是24正負1"},{"start":10476.346,"end":10498.482,"text":"目前已經快要公佈第三階段的時間點部長我想請問部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標"},{"start":10502.237,"end":10522.923,"text":"報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我"},{"start":10524.263,"end":10542.478,"text":"其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難,能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論不然我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望碳費或者是碳定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益"},{"start":10543.218,"end":10564.494,"text":"能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在12大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜沒有把碳定價給放進去沒有放進這12大裡面那接下來我要問的事情是我知道現在在碳費收費辦法裡面其實有設定所謂這個設定高碳洩漏風險的事業"},{"start":10566.576,"end":10580.222,"text":"那這個分成三期那有些來定0.2、0.4、0.6那坦白說這個數字出來也引起社會很多的討論大家看到哇打兩折很多人直接這樣解讀我想先問部長"},{"start":10582.372,"end":10605.977,"text":"這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?報告委員其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那你計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法"},{"start":10606.451,"end":10629.859,"text":"那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈"},{"start":10630.673,"end":10648.867,"text":"所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間"},{"start":10651.377,"end":10655.119,"text":"每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊"},{"start":10671.994,"end":10689.208,"text":"是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?署長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的"},{"start":10690.325,"end":10717.823,"text":"所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊"},{"start":10718.652,"end":10732.854,"text":"是,跟委員報告,因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛,不然怎麼會有參數呢?"},{"start":10735.669,"end":10752.588,"text":"現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間的流程感到幸福跟信任的"},{"start":10753.783,"end":10783.392,"text":"你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把它放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思"},{"start":10785.633,"end":10800.751,"text":"這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際"},{"start":10802.333,"end":10825.774,"text":"其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLD STANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際"},{"start":10826.815,"end":10852.949,"text":"我絕對是願意接軌但是我覺得很重要因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLD STANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長最後一個問題"},{"start":10855.53,"end":10868.003,"text":"我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係"},{"start":10870.075,"end":10897.523,"text":"這個其實這裡面齁就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高泛高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現"},{"start":10899.639,"end":10915.135,"text":"有可能那為什麼我們要用這兩個工具這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼他們之間的關係是什麼很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提一次酒減量計畫達到指定目標"},{"start":10915.874,"end":10937.588,"text":"所以當他如果提自主減量計劃有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合市長我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至優惠費率再下去剩下一折"},{"start":10938.717,"end":10944.12,"text":"會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具"},{"start":10959.128,"end":10984.857,"text":"今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit"},{"start":10986.187,"end":10996.754,"text":"這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他承擔他可能是放緩轉型"},{"start":10999.039,"end":11020.638,"text":"在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水"},{"start":11021.724,"end":11050.742,"text":"反而透過低的費率讓它變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認它到底它提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼"},{"start":11051.687,"end":11066.313,"text":"而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣好 謝謝沒有問題吧沒有問題好部長謝謝謝謝紅色外委員的發言今天沒有臨時提案需要處理那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言主席有請彭部長有請部長"},{"start":11079.747,"end":11101.873,"text":"委員好部長好那根據我們氣候邊遷因應法明定我國應在2050年達成溫室氣體淨零排放那目前碳費收費辦法自主減量計畫管理辦法及碳費徵收對象溫室氣體減量指定目標三項草案從4月29號開始預告那預告期間為60天對不對"},{"start":11106.695,"end":11132.232,"text":"希望能夠建構未來實施碳費的配套機制然後促使我們收費對象加快、加大減量腳步那我想要問部長我是覺得您確實接了一個很重大的任務那原來薛部長他是針對我們的碳費的費率他本來答應是什麼時候要出來"},{"start":11134.287,"end":11160.217,"text":"其實當然這個要看那個碳費審議委員會啦他本來是答應第一季要出來啦請問跳票了沒有這個是他的這個任內的啦當然當然當然我不會把他的任內的東西就怪到您身上了雖然政府也有延續性但是我要跟各位跟那個部長說後來我們的薛部長就說那要改到6月底出來"},{"start":11161.308,"end":11186.672,"text":"我想請問我們彭部長你有信心兌現這張支票嗎目前其實這個還是要看這個攤配事務委員會部長不行喔做得到做不到一句話啦對不對你做不到我說過做不到我不會怪你啊因為那是薛部長的承諾啊對因為包委員這個是氣候因應法委員來決定這些事情那我只說嘛那薛部長就說6月6月底這個期限到底"},{"start":11187.212,"end":11213.473,"text":"可不可以嗎?我個人認為其實因為是碳費委員會來決定部長我對你齁基本上很尊敬啦謝謝謝謝但是你可不可以也有點像我們薛部長齁能夠給大家明確一點的明確一點日期嘛這樣不好啦基本上是委員會在決定的所以我要壓一個日期那你就是意思是你責怪我們薛部長委員會決定了然後怎麼可以隨便亂講話大嘴巴嗎?還是怎麼樣?我們薛部長大嘴巴"},{"start":11214.358,"end":11224.114,"text":"不是不是 人家有魄力只是沒做到而已啦 對不對那他本來說第一季要出來也是大嘴巴 那是推給委員就好啦"},{"start":11225.25,"end":11251.151,"text":"不要什麼時候推給委員因為環境部還是做一個主管機關我還是要再問一次部長你是無法承諾6月底是不是你的意思是這樣基本上那個執法是大概8月底可以預告完但是這個還要很多的公開會費率那費率的部分還要有幾次的委員會6月底行不行如果環境部我先講你要推委員也沒關係但環境部起碼要掌握時程吧"},{"start":11252.586,"end":11281.004,"text":"說真的報告委員這個這個時程這沒關係我跟你講其實部長你不用擔心因為你才剛上來怎麼可能怪你嘛不可能的事嘛那你今天如果不是6月那你給我個時間嘛全民期待時間啊這個我跟我們的團隊再好好再討論好不好所以跟各位講第一件事我們部長已經沒辦法明確告訴大家6月時程要再告訴大家沒有關係時程你要再研究的話早點讓我們知道好不好"},{"start":11281.624,"end":11306.586,"text":"我個人認為是要盡快要上路,不管是... 我想盡快是政治用語啦。六月叫科學用語啦。對不對?那明確嘛。對不對?那每個人都想盡快。我也相信薛部長也想盡快啊。啊快了沒有?就跳票了嘛。對不對?那沒有關係,新部長上來,我覺得你也...不過說真的,環境部還是有延續性啦。所以因此"},{"start":11307.308,"end":11321.982,"text":"這個部分我希望說能夠把時程能夠跟大家明確化可是另外一個更嚴重了我們薛部長離職前還直接曾經有說過不排除將延後徵收納入考量我們本來攤費是預計什麼時候徵收2024年有辦法做到2024年剩多久半年請問做得到嗎"},{"start":11334.582,"end":11357.602,"text":"可不可以請我們主席來回答主席委員好因為我們當初2024年打算要開徵那因為就是一些法制作業需要完備那我們收費辦法的草案裡面有提到說如果在開徵的第一年這個碳費是比較費率是比較晚出爐的時候對嘛所以問題來了嘛為什麼一直問你費率懂了吧部長為什麼一直問你費率"},{"start":11361.585,"end":11378.759,"text":"你費率都沒出來你怎麼跟我講徵收啊對不對費率出來你還要一部分的準備時程吧那我就問嘛這樣部長放寬一點今年底費率出不出的來呃我我是對我們費率誒6月我講到今年因為明年24就要開徵了捏"},{"start":11381.178,"end":11399.157,"text":"你在12月31號費率出來你1月1號趕開徵也來不及阿可我問你阿12月底有沒有辦法費率出來基本上我相信以他們速度是出來沒有問題但是我報告委員好謝謝齁你相信齁你相信以他們速度出來沒有問題對不對那你對開徵明年有什麼信心"},{"start":11399.637,"end":11415.874,"text":"基本上報告委員那個開針還有很多技術上的細節所以我也鼓勵他們說我們也可以用影子探定價的方式來進行部長真的因為你剛上任所以基本上我覺得還是要給你一點時間謝謝但是我想時程不能掌握"},{"start":11416.594,"end":11416.774,"text":"謝謝羅志祥委員的發言"},{"start":11446.035,"end":11458.521,"text":"我們下一位請林楚英委員發言謝謝主席 主席有請我們彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":11461.018,"end":11484.746,"text":"林委員好部長好今天22號其實才上了兩天所以等一下如果我質詢的題目如果在您業務還來不及去理解的部分可以讓您的一起陪同出席的這些司長或處長們來做回應謝謝委員好我們知道其實我比較關注的當然就是有關於碳中和這個議題我想今天大家關注的也都是這個部分但說碳中和容易但是事實上"},{"start":11485.886,"end":11511.219,"text":"呃他不是只有在環境部比如說像我現在注意到是很多的商品因為我們的這相關的碳中和名詞出現之後他也變成是一個可以販售的宣傳嗎包括便利商店啦或者是一些食用品當中都會說啊我有碳中和有碳中和感覺上好像不只是宣傳而且好像我在購買的時候我為綠"},{"start":11514.02,"end":11527.286,"text":"為環保好像盡了一分力但是這樣的過程當中到底是不是真的企業做到碳中和到底有沒有辦法做揭露那這個部分如果是產品是商品它的主管機關是環境部嗎"},{"start":11528.922,"end":11545.727,"text":"報告員其實這件事情就是現在我們氣候署有一個碳中和的一個標準那我們會建議朝那個標準來進行所以有些企業他的確會用這樣方式來宣揚他的這個淨零的這個理念當然是很好但是也要嚴防避免票率"},{"start":11546.127,"end":11564.529,"text":"好,其實我擔心的就是說,如果他問易賦取企業的社會責任ESG來做到碳中和那是最好的但是就擔心他變成一個宣傳的噱頭我們來看吼,我們現在指引到底什麼社會上路大家一定都在問但是我更想問的是,如果今天"},{"start":11565.59,"end":11592.021,"text":"環境部他所擬定的企業宣告碳中和的這個指引如果企業要揭露我想問的就是那揭露在哪裡是金管會過去一直都有要求有關於ESG的報告當中嗎那麼他的策略是什麼行動是什麼那麼是未來要改成是碳中和也要做一個揭露報告書嗎那在這個揭露報告書當中等不同同於剛剛上面我所詢問的就是許多的商品產品"},{"start":11594.261,"end":11599.676,"text":"他揭露了他探綜合有畫上等號嗎那如果虛位不實"},{"start":11601.175,"end":11626.715,"text":"主管機關到底是環境部還是也許是經濟部或者是其他的部會如果是食品會不會是會服部其實我想問的是我現在問的這些問題有沒有跨部會的討論或是不是已經有一個方向就是所謂的票率而這個票率的過程當中如果我今天林竹英發現了他是出現在"},{"start":11627.435,"end":11649.33,"text":"企業當中那我到底是去找環境部還是我去找經濟部又或者是商品我要找衛福食品我要找衛福部部長報告委員這個其實都是跨部會的那對貴於這樣的一個指引呢其實我們我包含我現在已經有跟今晚會主委在討論其實我們必須未來要有一些例如說綠色金融這是賴總統的這個政見"},{"start":11650.991,"end":11672.311,"text":"我們其實在綠色金融裡面也要有一些指引包含反漂率的一個原則那國際上現在大概已經有這樣的一個標的物來處理了所以我們大概會遵照國際上這種反漂率的原則來進行所以我們用的是歐盟的標準呢還是用什麼樣的一個國際上面的標準你知道現在有兩套的標準嗎對目前這個部分是不是請我們署長"},{"start":11674.591,"end":11697.008,"text":"委員報告,您是?我是氣候變遷署長。好,氣候署署長,署長好。那現在我們在國際間在做碳中和都是自願性那現在我們也跟金管會還有相關的部會準備要開始來對國內這些自願性的工作來做規範那金管會他們日前釋出來的訊息他會先針對金融業那環境部的部分我們會針對企業的部分"},{"start":11698.909,"end":11701.172,"text":"所以會像金管會所要求的公發公司在他們的報告上面做揭露嗎?還是?"},{"start":11717.881,"end":11733.9,"text":"如果是公發公司願意自發性的來處理的話是根本報告這個就必須要跨部會來討論好因為我會問到這一題就是我手上拿到的就是金融機構房票率的一些指引那麼這個是由金管會來做擬定但是我就想要詢問了"},{"start":11734.941,"end":11757.727,"text":"那麼金融機構他在降房票率的時候我相信就是來做投融資的時候的這些融資的個案我們來做一些指引的宣導但是這樣的標準跟標的有沒有跟環境部做商討而且到底是真率還是假率那誰來判定尤其是金融機構裡面有人可以判定這是真率還是假率嗎"},{"start":11758.827,"end":11778.876,"text":"報告委員,其實這個部分我跟金管會彭朱惠有討論過這個議題,兩個會來做這個事情好,什麼時候?有約了嗎?有沒有期程?我什麼時候可以拿到更進一步的資料跟指引的方向?因為其實這份指引我看過了,但是其實都是概念性我覺得如果是這個概念,我必須講金融機構"},{"start":11779.957,"end":11781.579,"text":"報告委員,因為我們都有約好啦,但是因為我們都是第一次今天在立法院,所以等到我們稍微一點點上進道,我等一兩個月內會找他來開會。"},{"start":11800.859,"end":11802.7,"text":"謝謝林祖英委員的發言下一位我們請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":11833.253,"end":11854.313,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們彭部長彭部長你好首先恭喜你剛上任兩天那剛剛我想很多人都問過你目前出的這個最重要的目標跟任務是什麼但我想要請反過來問你那你上任之後你認為你比較大的困難跟挑戰會是什麼"},{"start":11855.442,"end":11871.438,"text":"我覺得就是說大家對於環境的認知大家覺得我包含我們的同仁都很優秀可是其實大家都會把環保放在最後面所以我會努力的把環境保護放在前面讓國人可以知道獲得更高的支持"},{"start":11872.82,"end":11897.199,"text":"對但是困難所以這個部分你覺得就是要把這個環保的概念放到第一位是比較困難的因為其實現在年輕朋友對於環境的支持度是非常高的但是大家社會裡面都會覺得這個環境保護等是要經濟發展之後才要來做這個事我希望逐步的來扭轉這個大家的認同可能是要同步發展這樣所以部長有許多業務是必須要跨部會協調甚至可能要行政院層級來統統整"},{"start":11899.361,"end":11912.473,"text":"所以包含著其實大家很關心的所謂碳費啊或是碳稅或者這個綠色產業等等的問題應該它的層級要更高啦但是我想請教部長你覺得環境部有辦法去進行政策的統整嗎"},{"start":11914.246,"end":11914.386,"text":"OK﹖"},{"start":11929.671,"end":11947.003,"text":"謝謝部長那你在社務媒體採訪的時候也有講到四大重點的政策那其中有一點我覺得很有趣你放在第四點叫做公開首長行程那請教部長環境部有這麼多重要的政策為何你要把這個公開首長行程這件事情單獨列出來特別強調"},{"start":11948.084,"end":11974.731,"text":"報告委員其實因為我來自民間我們跟任何的產業界互動都是一個常態但是我也很多的工協會會來拜訪我那我其實過去本身是open data聯盟的會長一直推動政府要開放資料那當我變成公職了之後我希望由我先做起逐步的來所以任何人我當然我的公開行程會放在上面甚至有一些厲害相關的族群來拜訪我我也會把討論的主題把它公布出來讓大家可以知道"},{"start":11975.632,"end":11994.732,"text":"謝謝,我覺得這個部長這個概念很好,因為其實也會擔心像其他的部長有一些部長首長可能會常常時下跟一些團體阿或是財團見面可能就會造成疑慮嘛對不對所以我認為你這樣的精神很好很值得大家的這個學習喔那部長你覺得你這次的業務報告裡面有沒有缺少什麼"},{"start":11997.374,"end":12014.367,"text":"環境部的東西喔,空水廢塗屋喔,其實裡面還是有很多我不瞭解的,但是我會積極的來去學習。好,謝謝,謝謝你回答。部長,今年的碳費啊,還有氣候變遷之外,我想還有一個議題,我在你的報告裡面沒有看到,也很重要,我認為非常重要,就是塑膠公約。"},{"start":12015.828,"end":12035.612,"text":"而社交公約最後一次會議將在11月於南韓召開而且最快也有可能在年底實施請教部長這個這麼重要的公約而且影響面非常的廣為何這個報告中好像沒有提到是不小心疏漏還是刻意疏漏"},{"start":12038.444,"end":12056.465,"text":"報告委員其實現在都是草案那年底在11月在韓國這個釜山開那個會應該會有一些這個具體方案再出來那我們也在積極的關注在因應當中那當然這個檢索是一個大事情那要改變國人的習慣就需要大家一起努力那我也會積極跟我同仁來討論這個事"},{"start":12057.987,"end":12072.501,"text":"所以部長我國要因應這個塑膠工業的國家計畫有沒有這個要啟動的任何的規劃還是你只是想要請同仁大概瞭解一下因為我自己看起來這件事情是今年很重要的這個環保上面的事情我可不可以請我們許萬曙署長來報告一下"},{"start":12074.082,"end":12096.872,"text":"在塑料公約裡面他有一個國家計畫是讓我們各國提出一些計畫來這個遵循這個塑料公約的內容那目前這個國家計畫的一個草案大綱有出來那我們會依照他的大綱先把我們國內的現況做一個盤點然後再看公約的進度來找各部位一起來演商"},{"start":12098.089,"end":12120.296,"text":"所以今年會啟動嘛那除了各國家計劃之外其實最重要的還有這個資源循環促進法那現在的立法進度尤其是針對產生廢棄物的生產端失業體徵收這個資源循環促進費也更是其中的重點所以我也想要請教部長這個資源循環促進法何時才會送到立法院來"},{"start":12121.016,"end":12141.014,"text":"目前都還進行跟這個相關的厲害團體來進行溝通啦我會請他們能夠再加速一點點看能不能今年能夠送出來部長因為你剛來我要提醒你喔因為這個環境部已經說要訂立這個資源循環促進法已經非常的久了但是每次都是停留在說的階段瞭解的階段"},{"start":12142.215,"end":12169.782,"text":"然而面對到我們今年底這個塑膠公約有可能具體會要來實施最快的話年底就算晚一點我們算明年好了這樣子可以更凸顯我們國家對於這件事情的進度落後你可不可以宣誓在部長可不可以宣誓在這個本會期結束前可以將草案送到立法院因為現在我們要進行這個預告程序跟開會然後再送到行政院去做審查那我們這邊會盡快"},{"start":12171.227,"end":12189.113,"text":"緊快,所以這個會期可以嗎?因為還要到行政院審查才有辦法送出來所以你沒有辦法保證這個會期會有?我們現在下一個目標就是能夠去預告草案然後送到行政院去審查那希望你可以給一個比較具體的目標到時候也可以給本席,好嗎?"},{"start":12190.69,"end":12202.924,"text":"再來環境部在我們4月29日的時候預告空氣品質標準的第三條跟第四條其中裡面有一項非常重要的就是將PM2.5的平均值從15毫維克"},{"start":12205.026,"end":12219.122,"text":"要下調為12維克而環團認為這個新的標準並沒有達到WHO的建議也就是新指引的這個年均值是5維克請教部長為什麼我們不參照這個WHO的所定的指引"},{"start":12220.063,"end":12234.319,"text":"其實因為我們台灣我們是四面環海,我們很多的海岩,所以其實我們的背景值像花蓮也差不多最好的情況也只有到9而已。所以我們如果我們西半部呢要能夠像這個東半部一樣的話,其實整個的改變要非常非常的大。"},{"start":12235.12,"end":12258.925,"text":"這個是我們的團隊告訴我說現在我們可以到達的一個目標那我們如果要更往前的話那我有特別請他們在模擬當中有各式各樣的選項因為包含了這個重大的污染源、排放源或是汽機車其實都要很大量的改變那個是需要跨部會的合作所以我們是我個人是希望能夠再更低但是我必須考量現在我們能夠到達的一個目標"},{"start":12259.605,"end":12288.124,"text":"對我可以理解務實上這個五維克是一個比較長遠的目標但是部長之前在我們衛福部國衛院的研究也證實空污會增加這個中風死亡率以及PM2.5跟肺癌跟肺阻塞等有關當然美國環保署的研究也顯示改善空氣品質的這個成本效益非常的高可以算是非常划算的投資以美國為例90年代提高這個標準後每年減少16萬人的死亡"},{"start":12288.444,"end":12289.288,"text":"甚至在2020年的這個數字還達到了減少了23萬人"},{"start":12292.443,"end":12321.435,"text":"所以環團是認為即便是新標準卻也還是現在的殺人標準請問部長你同意嗎?基本上因為包委員那個臺灣的本身的背景值就比較高啦所以我必須說我當然是希望能夠越低越好但是其實有時候我們在做的時候有一定的難度所以這個部分呢我有特別請我們團隊持續的在各種做各種的情境模擬能不能提出一個更好更有效率的因為我們過去減了大概30%那現在要往下減其實那個成本效率都很高"},{"start":12321.735,"end":12346.244,"text":"委員部長今天的口頭報告的第12頁這個新空氣二部曲次標是提升持續提升空品邁向WHO的標準願景請教部長這個WHO已經新的指引就是五維克但是我們的願景十二維克還是比這五維克高出了兩倍半是不是很多而且這是你們的願景那假設是願景的話是不是以後我看到願景可以代表說你做不到就叫做願景"},{"start":12347.75,"end":12361.278,"text":"報告委員其實在台灣如果我們在很乾淨的地方大概都還有大概6或7維克所以其實要到以台灣而言或是我們東亞而言這種背景值就很高了所以要到真的WHO那真的是非常困難的一件事情"},{"start":12361.909,"end":12373.397,"text":"因為你們還有再來就是第12頁的時候你們的報告裡面有顯示短期是完成空氣品質標準的發布也就是我們剛剛說的15維克要降到12維克那中期你寫113年到116年報告卻寫的是13維克那要到117年的這個到120年才可以達到12維克"},{"start":12382.384,"end":12407.445,"text":"所以這讓我們感覺你訂出來這個你訂出來的一個法規可是你這個中期目標卻達不到是訂好玩的嗎?報告委員其實這個部分我有跟我們的司長好好的討論過現在正在進行各種的這個模擬演算希望能夠找到一個因為我個人是希望能夠更低啦但是我必須考量到能不能達得到所以我們是不是請我們司長快"},{"start":12408.505,"end":12431.054,"text":"對,因為你設立一個標準是12可是你現在中期這裡寫的卻是13那就代表你根本達不到那為什麼要這樣設計呢?跟委員報告,我們那個並不是說標準目前的空氣品質達到以後我們來設一個目前的標準我們可以努力的目標是12但是12呢並不是4年內就可以達到124年內我們現在就可以達到13但是要再往下降呢"},{"start":12431.654,"end":12432.215,"text":"接下來請誰等一下"},{"start":12462.694,"end":12463.375,"text":"徐欣盈委員"},{"start":12476.778,"end":12495.466,"text":"徐委員好部長好首先恭喜您當履新上任而且您素有氣象達人之稱相信除了氣候變遷的議題之外請問您對環境部的業務都還熟悉嗎"},{"start":12496.526,"end":12511.039,"text":"我現在在努力學習我當然有一部分是很熟悉但是很多一部分我還在摸索當中尤其是它的這個例如說垃圾啊循環經濟啊等等這個都是我過去比較少碰的跟委員談成我要必須跟我們的署長們學習"},{"start":12513.26,"end":12531.405,"text":"今天本席想要就部長今天的簡報第14頁有講到安靜家園、跨部會合作改善鄰近噪音還有簡報第37頁也提到了推動廢水處理節能創能及資源循環"},{"start":12532.305,"end":12550.487,"text":"就這兩方面的議題本席想來跟您就教也想給您一些建議首先第一個就是有關噪音的問題那因為本席在交通委員會有提出一個問題就是說我們這個交通的噪音"},{"start":12551.308,"end":12576.823,"text":"那這個當然交通部對於不管高速公路或鐵道邊的住戶他們噪音分貝達到一定的程度也可以做隔音牆嘛這一塊那這個交通部定的這個隔音牆要設置的噪音的這個標準它要80分貝但是有一個概念本席想在這邊溝通就是"},{"start":12577.603,"end":12605.74,"text":"比如說我們人體比如說我背一個東西一百斤的我背不動一百斤會造成我身體很大的創傷一百斤背上去我大概就垮了可能還會骨折那八公斤十公斤大家都可以背可是有一個問題就是八公斤十公斤雖然感覺好像很輕微甚至五公斤但是如果你背著不放"},{"start":12606.701,"end":12629.364,"text":"背了10天、一個月、一年、十年都一直持續不斷的那身體會不會變形?還是會變形我舉這個例子想要說的就是你噪音分貝它要80分貝嘛那我72分貝或75分貝都不達標準所以不能設置隔音牆"},{"start":12630.365,"end":12657.494,"text":"那可是你想想看一個人70分貝就在他住家他睡眠的時間哇持續8個小時然後一天一個月一年十年他住在那邊幾十年欸痛苦不堪這第一點所以為什麼有滴水穿石欸滴水誰怕我洪流我會怕啊牆牆的水柱會傷我"},{"start":12658.342,"end":12658.362,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":12680.478,"end":12706.35,"text":"我很多人就受不了他可能就憂鬱症了所以這一塊部長可不可以來演你因為交通部一定會找你那這一塊我們要來改善一定要來這個想辦法尤其他已經很接近你80分貝他是針對可能你聽到80分貝以上的你耳朵或是你整個人會受不了但是我70幾分貝的我一直達不到80分貝"},{"start":12707.29,"end":12716.825,"text":"他continuous他持續不斷那就是滴水穿石的原理那怎麼受得了我們的民眾這一塊就受苦啊"},{"start":12718.069,"end":12737.147,"text":"可以嗎?部長給我正面的回應吧我自己在家裡要是鄰居唱KTV40分貝我都受不了了太好了所以我深有同感那當然這個部分我會跟交通部來做協調到底要領域出跟民眾有關的法案不是協調他現在看你們的設定標準是你們他說是環保"},{"start":12738.468,"end":12762.741,"text":"環保在社的 報告員我們了解一下 謝謝第二個問題還有一點時間就是我們大家都非常認同我們要愛護我們的環境那臺灣很多的河川的污染我相信您上任一定會碰到很多河川的污染我們真的要愛護我們的環境現在有很多地方這個河川污染長期啊"},{"start":12765.492,"end":12765.512,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":12785.623,"end":12811.578,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":12813.14,"end":12822.935,"text":"這個環保局地方一直查無佈法可是居民一直反映我們甚至看到死魚有一些案件那這個怎麼辦"},{"start":12825.745,"end":12847.163,"text":"報告委員其實這個部分唯一解決的方法就是在河川多設這個感測器然後即時的這個監控那這個一有問題馬上先知道然後馬上去做處理那這個在地方中央可以補助設置這些的經費目前已經有了像新竹那幾個他們有幾個年輕朋友用LAS有一個社群叫LAS就幫助解決了新竹很多的問題"},{"start":12847.904,"end":12849.025,"text":"謝謝徐欣盈委員的發言接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":12880.533,"end":12883.435,"text":"主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。"},{"start":12904.048,"end":12922.761,"text":"不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍"},{"start":12933.468,"end":12934.269,"text":"你有看到這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":12934.269,"end":12945.963,"text":"有 有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制"},{"start":12949.537,"end":12970.539,"text":"那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族"},{"start":12971.059,"end":12994.7,"text":"但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等"},{"start":12995.781,"end":13009.905,"text":"大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過12000多種。"},{"start":13011.988,"end":13029.172,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13029.312,"end":13034.197,"text":"包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們身體上穿戴也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質"},{"start":13044.787,"end":13073.389,"text":"那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大"},{"start":13074.17,"end":13089.584,"text":"那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA"},{"start":13091.065,"end":13112.836,"text":"這四種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究又說他都超過了這些標準"},{"start":13114.226,"end":13140.014,"text":"那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目"},{"start":13144.212,"end":13152.192,"text":"有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下"},{"start":13153.763,"end":13173.811,"text":"六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器"},{"start":13174.611,"end":13176.411,"text":"結果超過一半有64個樣本剪出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等"},{"start":13199.277,"end":13222.59,"text":"便當盒、咖啡杯、飲料如果是紙杯的大概都全部有塗層了這使用PFAS的可能性都很大那我們現在講說大家都在用我們有人一天不是用一個你一天吃兩個便當再加上早餐外帶的早餐盒再加上素食店再喝咖啡我想很多人一天用了5個6個7個8個9個10個都含有PFAS那我們就要來問了"},{"start":13227.254,"end":13228.019,"text":"批發對人體的危害風險有多大?"},{"start":13230.865,"end":13257.785,"text":"很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS"},{"start":13258.425,"end":13262.306,"text":"歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量"},{"start":13280.733,"end":13297.342,"text":"結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊"},{"start":13298.632,"end":13299.733,"text":"各位,我們的年紀都比年輕人還要更大,我們吃進去了更多喔!那我們再看"},{"start":13313.008,"end":13322.753,"text":"2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內"},{"start":13339.682,"end":13359.055,"text":"40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS"},{"start":13360.956,"end":13387.501,"text":"他已有足夠的研究證明他跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說"},{"start":13389.821,"end":13405.869,"text":"臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在"},{"start":13409.017,"end":13432.338,"text":"報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識"},{"start":13435.22,"end":13459.613,"text":"所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約他的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後"},{"start":13464.728,"end":13483.523,"text":"我都說這個國際公約是最弱或最低標準我們連最低標準還看不到車尾燈啊我就講最低標準就好了斯德哥爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS"},{"start":13485.504,"end":13508.233,"text":"那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了"},{"start":13509.141,"end":13516.023,"text":"跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽到我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種"},{"start":13534.468,"end":13547.944,"text":"你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFO家族有364種你只列管了一種PFO是八種你只列管了三種PFO364種你只列管了一種"},{"start":13551.488,"end":13555.57,"text":"你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部"},{"start":13578.684,"end":13600.803,"text":"所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種根本報告這部分我們正在演繹當中我也有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長"},{"start":13602.574,"end":13621.552,"text":"就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有一萬兩千多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS"},{"start":13625.216,"end":13632.843,"text":"這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈"},{"start":13649.858,"end":13650.819,"text":"我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管"},{"start":13657.493,"end":13682.619,"text":"報告委員這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家最低標準對那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦要列管啦報告委員能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦"},{"start":13685.982,"end":13703.941,"text":"還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸好我再去救救部長保證這是你可能比較沒有關注到的但我再問你跟上司的各模公約是最低標準但是我們還要不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊"},{"start":13704.542,"end":13713.529,"text":"我們的讀管法做的應該根據讀管法來做的事情還很多我們既有化學物質有兩萬種化學物質列冊但是其中裡面我們既有化學物質裡面有821種屬於PFAS這個大家族"},{"start":13724.842,"end":13739.171,"text":"根據獨觀法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個"},{"start":13741.152,"end":13760.443,"text":"所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他一萬一千多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條"},{"start":13761.544,"end":13780.708,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13781.128,"end":13809.695,"text":"PFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啊"},{"start":13810.663,"end":13834.804,"text":"我知道這有點難水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條"},{"start":13836.525,"end":13860.63,"text":"中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX"},{"start":13866.332,"end":13888.722,"text":"147種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規"},{"start":13890.083,"end":13909.589,"text":"我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員順暢面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以"},{"start":13910.97,"end":13926.078,"text":"我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款"},{"start":13927.139,"end":13953.536,"text":"化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質好謝謝委員委員的意見我會來處理然後我們定期再跟委員回報知識體大事實你知道你們事實上你們"},{"start":13954.642,"end":13978.627,"text":"你們這個報告我是不滿意第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果全服PFAS家族就全服碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西"},{"start":13979.807,"end":13981.79,"text":"要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有"},{"start":13988.755,"end":14009.351,"text":"水源水質類你們是委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了"},{"start":14010.311,"end":14027.251,"text":"世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大"},{"start":14027.911,"end":14055.166,"text":"在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎"},{"start":14055.646,"end":14072.993,"text":"可以我盡量來做好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員的發言接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請吳春成委員吳春成委員吳春成委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":14086.44,"end":14101.055,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長請彭部長劉委員好部長好部長你算是第二任的環境部的部長是先向你恭喜謝謝然後也請教部長"},{"start":14103.385,"end":14132.304,"text":"前一任的薛部長就職超一年的時間那之前就是環保署那為什麼要把環保署升格成為環境部部長知道嗎當然啦這個我知道的是之前有環境資源部更多更廣泛那升格成環境部當然他其實要必須在業務職長裡面更能夠跟這個更多職員的一個合作所以目前環境部來說的話包含他們的職能職長還有預算都有顯著的提升"},{"start":14133.965,"end":14161.995,"text":"可以先具體簡單二要的重點式的說明嗎?為什麼要把環保署提升個變成環境部當然我認為這個是責任的開始因為這個環境部他必須要做的工作就比以前的署還要來的多很多多什麼?例如說這個空水廢土屋要更明確然後甚至有加了氣候變遷在裡面所以我個人認為這個環境部已經有點像是這個環境與氣候部的這種感覺他跟過去環保署是完全不一樣的"},{"start":14164.072,"end":14190.113,"text":"我還是期待部長可以再多了解一下不是責任開始的原本環保署有責任不會說環保署之前沒有責任現在變環境部才是責任的開始應該不是這樣好不好你知道環保署變成環境部是在哪一個朝委的時候把他升格起來的嗎就是六會員我們為什麼都要這樣笑開會要慎重尊重一點"},{"start":14192.595,"end":14204.45,"text":"那請問部長你貴庚我53歲53歲那比姚委員還年輕很多我為什麼要這麼問因為你我有拜託你接受這個"},{"start":14205.683,"end":14227.442,"text":"媒體的這樣的一個採訪那你有特別提到說三年後有一件重要事情就是要推動環境部的數位轉型嘛對不對還有這個高階主管、乃至科長都必須上這個數位轉型的課程目標一年獲得能力要能夠被民間挖角沒有錯吧?是是這是一個理想要把理想"},{"start":14228.877,"end":14251.161,"text":"轉成實際的行動你有去test你知道我們剛剛講的已經擴大了這樣的一個服務的這個這個政策執行的量能嘛對不對所以針對重要的高階主管應該是所謂的這個私屬單位主管本來是科長嘛那不曉得私屬的主管平均年齡多少嗎"},{"start":14252.061,"end":14273.213,"text":"大概如果主管的話大概是5959歲59歲還大你的年齡有6歲以上對不對沒錯沒錯然後你還希望他們趕快的來進修學習然後專管在主管去專精相關的數位AI大數據的知識甚至到一年後還要被民間挖角"},{"start":14275.22,"end":14300.855,"text":"報告委員其實他們都很優秀但是我也發現他們被很多事情綁住所以其實我自己本身也用到很多AI的工具我希望大家能夠熟悉甚至主管熟悉的時候在帶我們的部署的時候可以用到更多的工具讓我們的同仁不要那麼的辛苦啦我們是要用這種工具為主那至於會不會寫程式其實現在CHPT會幫我們寫程式了所以其實這個各位委員不用那麼擔心我相信大家有這個能力"},{"start":14301.311,"end":14325.558,"text":"我沒有擔心而且我也不反對依照這樣的一個平均年齡要來讓他們做這些事情坦白講如果願意自我提升然後願意自己再進化自己那當然是好事一樁但是我要讓部長看一個數據你知道這一個公務人員建三年離職的人數不然退休跟解雇"},{"start":14326.434,"end":14343.867,"text":"一百零九年是一九六九一一年是二一九二一直到一百一十一年是二四六九那去年還沒有出來那為什麼會這個樣子你們面對到少子化的衝擊如果要要如何去招攬比較年輕留住年輕的人才這是所有部會面對到重要的課題"},{"start":14345.668,"end":14369.998,"text":"這離職率這麼高然後持續晚上再攀升那我們部長又期待經過相關的這些數位轉型的課程讓各位可以一年後被民間挖財這個有點衝突跟矛盾對與不對見仁見智但是我只是要讓你知道有這樣的狀況在發生所以過去民間的利益銀行在做相關的分析就是說被認為這個鐵飯碗的公子現在出現這種逃離潮"},{"start":14373.613,"end":14393.943,"text":"這是在政府必須面對非常重要的課題要如果去做相關的因應所以在部長你的帶領之下要將這個數位能力納入這個環境部中我想應該是應該要廣泛的針對基層人員基於相關的進修的這個資源改善這種升遷的環境反而會比較來的實際你認不認同"},{"start":14395.544,"end":14424.358,"text":"報告委員其實我接觸到我的同仁我舉例我來自民間我們平常下班就不會賴來賴去的可是我發現我們公部門都很辛苦我都很為他們委屈啦所以我是希望有更好的工具讓我們工作上不要那麼的操勞有一個比較好的生活那另外一個就是說其實他們的素養能力提高他們都非常優秀到民間去都是一個高階主管而且民間的待遇也都很好所以我個人來說的話數位轉型就是給他們一個很好的鼓勵他們具有像民間一樣的這個才能"},{"start":14424.798,"end":14442.566,"text":"所以這個是我是認為是一種鼓勵的措施那有這種公司的這種交流當然對於我們政府發展是一個好事對所以我支持啦齁我是支持但是是不是可以在全面的去做這樣的思考尤其是基層的工人員更應該給他們更多這樣學習的一個資源跟課程嘛多多鼓勵嘛"},{"start":14443.406,"end":14462.226,"text":"甚至連約聘顧的都應該鼓勵他們可以去參與高普考讓政府可以留住更多人才甚至於在你環境部培訓的時間真的有達到這樣的一個level的時候他被民間挖角的時候那我們也留住了相關的一定的比例所以就不會這種離子人潮一直在出走"},{"start":14463.447,"end":14489.33,"text":"這個我相信離職人潮除了一個社會上外面的工作機會比公部門好很多之外當然還有一些制度上的東西那委員提到的這個建議其實賴總統現在卓院長就是AI內閣當然那個不是人工智慧內閣但是其實現在我所知道的像卓院長也都去上了AI的課我們很多的部位都在上這個人工智慧的課所以這個是我認為未來是每個人都要去學人工智慧數位轉型這是必要的"},{"start":14489.964,"end":14509.156,"text":"對啦 所以我支持嘛我不反對但是我是覺得說從基層的應該從更廣的面向不是只有這些主管級來面對這樣的一個課程的一個訓練嘛我會從兩個一個是主管要學什麼例如說主管我不會要他們寫程式他們會進行一些數據分析如果人家他們要寫局長、署長要寫你也應該讓他們有這個表現的機會啊"},{"start":14511.297,"end":14539.256,"text":"他們有的很厲害我知道啦他們可以直接跟部長一樣來帶動嘛但是我還是希望給基層的給約聘顧的有更多這樣的一個學習的資源啦沒問題這個我會來做好那另外一個我再請教部長你上任這個環境部一個蠻大的任務嘛就所謂的淨零碳排和碳匯的問題嘛對不對那你接受訪問的時候你說碳匯進度接下來一定要加速前進然後也要特別注意氣候變遷行程的通貨膨脹問題"},{"start":14541.498,"end":14567.436,"text":"來自於不會成為社會的負擔這非常重要但是我覺得不是只有加速可能要立刻為什麼我們講過去都在講說這個藍領的勞工階層白領在做辦公室那現在出現了一種叫做綠領綠領的新名詞部長應該知道吧知道這個就是經過變遷的因應法以及碳會所產生的這個新興的職業然後民間現在有置辦叫永續管理師碳製程"},{"start":14575.495,"end":14575.795,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14586.929,"end":14614.226,"text":"這個其實它是屬於自己的學習啦那環境部不會去做認證當然有些可能民眾想要自己學的特別多我們都尊重但是我們提醒民眾要慎選因為這個課程除了是說碳的盤查跟驗證特別是驗證的部分因為氣候變遷因應法必須來我們這個部內去受訓之外其他大多數都是這個民眾自己去學習的那我們都尊重但是提醒民眾要慎選"},{"start":14615.307,"end":14620.019,"text":"謝謝部長提醒民眾要勝選請問部長如果我要去上我該如何勝選"},{"start":14621.712,"end":14645.36,"text":"其實基本上這些課程呢我個人認為都是一個綠領那未來我有跟我們同仁討論說未來這個綠領他到最後就位的橋接是不是有一些更好的這個建議這個是我們未來可以來思考來推動的因為目前的這個上了課然後上了課也沒有不見得有工作機會那這個就會造成這個年輕朋友的這個失望所以這個部門會記錄你有沒有辦法如何慎選"},{"start":14646.628,"end":14647.089,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":14665.422,"end":14678.054,"text":"你看齁 這個陳姓會計師他有會計師的執照他已經報名參加民間機構的ESG近年的永續管理師的培訓課程他付了24萬事後發現該機構沒有經過國際組織認證無法核發相關的證照那花一大筆錢卻只換來一張結訓證書無助於轉職所以他不夠勝選"},{"start":14689.318,"end":14713.074,"text":"沒錯沒錯沒錯因為這個東西就是一個結訓你去學習這個東西沒有一個國際的機構會給你這樣的證照的是所以他就是不夠慎重也不夠慎選對好所以他當到會計師還這樣基本上這個東西其實第二件森林系的大師的王同學想考取淨零探選相關證照因為學校無相關"},{"start":14716.365,"end":14742.843,"text":"到外面的機構上課拿到證明所以只能安慰自己上課證明應能至少當作求職的敲門磚所以他也不夠慎選基本上我們環境國家環境學院部內的其實他都有開放相關的課程所以像這個大社的同學他其實可以到我們部內的相關的課程可以來上不會花那麼多錢所以到我們部內的相關課程來上上完之後可以有認證"},{"start":14744.929,"end":14750.067,"text":"有證明,有證明,也是叫證明,就跟陳國立律師拿到的這個證明到底是一樣啊?"},{"start":14751.212,"end":14777.313,"text":"我們是公部門的證明所以公部門的證明就是會超越過民間的證明這個其實還是要從他實際上的量能啦現在基本上這個是市場機制有些就像說有人去彈鋼琴一個小時一萬塊有的一小時五百塊這個就看個人的這個需求我們沒有辦法去限制人家做什麼啦但是如果你這麼講說你們是公部門總是優於民間所辦的相關的課程那會一窩窩能都跑到你們這邊來喔"},{"start":14778.674,"end":14802.659,"text":"基本上也報告委員其實有些民間的機構辦的這個課程也非常的不錯但是這個必須我們是公部門必須我們有公部門的這個提供我們例如說給年輕朋友價格比較低不是不是不是部長我要跟你表達應該不是這樣啦齁如果從你所講的所謂的勝選嘛那陳貴希斯這個例子就是他不夠慎重的選擇嘛才會發生花了24萬只有得到一個所謂的一個結線的證書嘛"},{"start":14804.979,"end":14807.901,"text":"來到你們公部門,不用花到24萬嗎?"},{"start":14807.901,"end":14818.846,"text":"不用 不用嗎?他可以得到什麼樣的跟他不一樣的證書?公部門的﹖環境部的等於是結業證書﹖你們叫結業證書嗎?他們叫結訓證書嗎?差異就是環境部頒的這個證書又與民間的那張證書嗎?"},{"start":14826.571,"end":14851.842,"text":"報告委員這個一頁均相關的就是當然一頭熱啦但是我必須透過委員跟大家知道其實這個目前國際上並沒有一個標準的證書是沒有當然你可以去拿到一個什麼永續學院就大學開的那個就是一個碩士的學程所以經過這些淨零碳白的相關的課程啦認證啦品質啦環境部要不要要不要要不要來面對然後看與如何來做納管"},{"start":14852.422,"end":14872.342,"text":"報告委員兩部分一個是ISO的查驗證要符合我們氣候變遷因應法我們其實有納管例如說我們的查驗證的人員大概有一百多人那個有納管他要來上課但是如果去上這個所謂的ESG相關的那個就屬於個人自願的去學習那當然我們有額外開一個課關於來了解這個淨零或氣候變遷的"},{"start":14874.226,"end":14897.159,"text":"就是了解嘛,對不對,完了之後就是一個結業證書嗎?沒錯,現在大概都是這樣。對,那你們跟人家收多少錢?一天一千塊。一天一千塊,總共要上三百六十五天。沒有沒有沒有,我們有兩天到五天的班,就五類的班,那兩天到五天的班,是這樣子。所以就可以領得職業結業證書。那大學生憑學生證是不用錢,他只要保證金考試及格就…"},{"start":14897.719,"end":14921.68,"text":"所以我拿這張證書是環境部頒給我的我花了這筆錢之後我可以就叫做我叫做探教育師我可以就叫做探教育師目前沒有這樣的東西所以基本上要勝選不然不然現在民間有叫永續管理師還有資產管理師還有探教育師然後我都來跟你環境部上這些課程花了一天三天五天花了三五千之後我是環境部認證的"},{"start":14923.261,"end":14942.877,"text":"可以嗎?可以嗎?我不這麼講嘛我就直接在我的我的我的我的我的我的名片裡面寫說我是經過你環境部認證的但是認證什麼沒有寫就只有寫認證但是我覺得什麼事我們有證明而已沒有認證因為這個東西要到這樣的水準是另外一件一個一個這樣會計師這樣的行列目前全世界都還沒有針對氣候變遷的一種職業的執照"},{"start":14945.439,"end":14957.03,"text":"所以我才希望說部長可能要立刻來面對這個事情嘛該民間所舉辦的相關的課程跟這樣的一個範圍領籌有關係的應該是要準備來其實報告委員這個其實就是臺灣社會對於這個ESG一頭熱啦熱的有點過熱了所以引發這個很多民間的就希望用這個方式來上課所以環境部該不該把關嘛"},{"start":14968.926,"end":14997.681,"text":"呃我會來跟我們同仁來好好討論一下為什麼會直銷那個呃留言報告不是因為這個事情因為主要涉及到外面補習類似以前的補習班的模式啊對啦競爭的關係才造成這樣的結果不過因為我們開班的目的只是為了提供現在大因為我們綠領人才需求很因切所以我們希望這個部分去平衡這個市場那至於剛剛部長提的我們現在就是有幾個機構我們會來可能做一些協商瞭解大家的運作模式啦因為這個剛剛部長提到這個品質高低事實上是差蠻多的對"},{"start":14998.261,"end":15022.214,"text":"府應該有針對這些補習的場合也有去做了解嗎?甚至人家有在做相關的一些管理嗎?那環境部針對淨零碳排的相關這些課程應該也要擔起相關的責任吧?包括我有跟我們院長特別討論說我們找一些比較好的這個口碑還有他的聲譽比較好做得不錯的一些我們一起來研商能夠建立一個好的綠林的制度"},{"start":15023.882,"end":15024.062,"text":"但是我們的確有發現這樣的情況"},{"start":15048.19,"end":15050.352,"text":"接下來請中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員不在接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":15087.92,"end":15103.214,"text":"謝謝主席。謝謝主席。主席我請一下彭部長。請彭部長。部長我就是年紀大於很多的羊羊。部長剛剛講了"},{"start":15105.669,"end":15127.027,"text":"環境部大概就是有一點環境氣候部的味道了所以我就先跟部長談一下減碳的問題其實我們減碳他大概需要多管齊下包括林地的保護"},{"start":15130.49,"end":15153.249,"text":"注目的種植、發展綠能、減少廢棄物包括支援循環等等都必須要去做聯合國在去年底有示警就是2030年必須要減少42%的碳排放才能夠將全球暖化"},{"start":15154.827,"end":15168.475,"text":"的狀況下的情況控制在升溫1.5度這個還蠻嚴重的但是我們環境部目前的目標是到2030年減少25%到28%跟42其實差距還蠻大的部長有沒有什麼"},{"start":15180.819,"end":15197.71,"text":"報告委員其實我們臺灣是24加解1國際上大概是40幾到50左右那當然這個東西有些國家訂了不見得達得到所以我一直想我一直也會跟很多人談到說其實我參加聯合國會議這麼多次其實也觀察到"},{"start":15198.71,"end":15215.537,"text":"很多的朋友都在說都做不到這個目標2050年進行碳排是一個很難做到的目標但是因為很難做到所以我們要很努力當成是一個目標在做那我們台灣的24加減1的確是稍微慢這個國際的一個標準但是其實跟我們"},{"start":15216.437,"end":15238.326,"text":"而且部長還有一個問題就是當然每一個國家定的標準包括每一個他定的標準都不一定可以達到年份以什麼年為減碳的標準都不一樣對不對那其實我們定的也不一定就一定可以達到沒錯對不對沒錯所以"},{"start":15240.69,"end":15254.901,"text":"我提這個呢就是希望提醒部長就是我們已經算是跟聯合國市警的%數已經算是相對低了我們務必要在2030打到"},{"start":15258.723,"end":15285.102,"text":"24加減1也好,25到28也好,就是盡可能的這個有關大氣的氣候變化所以這個可能在部長任內應該要努力去做其實減少碳排有一個很重要的關鍵就是再生能源的發展"},{"start":15286.448,"end":15293.413,"text":"可是我們就是說國際能源總署建議假如說要在2050"},{"start":15295.555,"end":15308.703,"text":"當然部長剛剛講的本席是認同的就是說這是一個理想一個目標可是我們還是以2050來做論述假如說要在2050完成淨零碳排的話2030必須要有60%的電能是屬於再生能源"},{"start":15318.905,"end":15345.431,"text":"可是根據經濟部的能源署統計2023年就到去年臺灣不到10%的電力是再生能源發電所以這些資料都告訴我們其實臺灣要距離淨零碳排是還有很長的路要走因為綠能發展的部分可能以"},{"start":15346.551,"end":15370.191,"text":"以經濟部為主,你這邊可能也只是配合那部長你對於上任以後近鄰碳排的中長期目標是什麼?怎麼落實?有什麼想法嗎?報告委員其實我們這個環境部在整個近鄰碳排有12項關鍵戰略裡面只有兩個一個是近鄰綠生活還有一個就是資源循環的部分"},{"start":15371.432,"end":15392.151,"text":"這個在裡面說真的是比較小但是有一個責任卻是在我們身上我們必須要控管全球的我們全台灣的這個溫室氣體的減碳的這個目標所以這件事情委員可能給我壓力可是又是在各個部會所以我會積極的跟各個部會來協商尤其是我們下半年要訂2026到2030年真的管制目標"},{"start":15392.771,"end":15411.952,"text":"所以說真的這個壓力蠻大的那這個都需要跨部會的一直不斷的跟各個部會來討論希望你可以靠一點這個的確是一個很艱鉅的任務啦我覺得新內閣在於橫向的協調跟合作上真的是必須要做到很落實"},{"start":15413.233,"end":15413.814,"text":"那部長剛剛講到"},{"start":15438.85,"end":15449.278,"text":"進零轉型的12項關鍵戰略,那我就直接跳到這一題。就是我們有一個資源循環零廢棄,12項戰略裡面有一項這樣。"},{"start":15460.455,"end":15486.911,"text":"那我覺得麻煩部長跟我們部裡面的同仁就我看到的資料長期以來一樣是離島縣可是金門的資源回收率常常基於全國的前三名可是澎湖卻是後半端這個能不能請部裡面"},{"start":15491.611,"end":15492.912,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":15511.451,"end":15538.136,"text":"在澎湖離島又比較特殊部長離島目前的垃圾都是運回來臺灣那個成本是很高的所以我說我提這個問題大會影響到淨零轉型小會影響到我們的預算支出這個能不能請部裡面跟"},{"start":15541.478,"end":15541.698,"text":"為什麼一樣是離島縣、金門"},{"start":15557.93,"end":15579.678,"text":"回收率常常是全台的前三名那澎湖卻是末段版這個當然可能縣裡面有遇到一些問題能不能請部這邊看應該增加設備、應該增加人力或者是應該怎麼落實這個問題總是要解決我們請支援選手來協助輔導好"},{"start":15584.738,"end":15610.686,"text":"市長不好意思在最後一個問題就是環境部現在對於公共污水下水道量能比較不普及的非都市地區然後在水體具有水質影響敏感的河段或海域有推動示範"},{"start":15612.245,"end":15612.506,"text":"示範場協力的一個計畫"},{"start":15618.64,"end":15645.76,"text":"我有先問過就是這個計畫是屬於競爭型的沒錯競爭型我能不能請部長研究看看就是由離島先行來推動因為競爭型的離島因為礙於公務部門的人力的問題所以通常競爭不過所以能不能那澎湖四面都是海"},{"start":15647.353,"end":15660.673,"text":"我們也一直在海洋環境的保護上下了很多功夫可不可以請部長這個演繹一下在全國競爭型以外"},{"start":15662.13,"end":15675.339,"text":"我們澎湖先讓你們當成示範區也好、試驗區也好。我們先在澎湖找一個島來做做看。好沒問題。這個我們會跟澎湖環保局來討論看看。我們部內會協助。"},{"start":15679.082,"end":15695.568,"text":"因為我覺得這個計畫是非常好只是說他競爭型的有的時候對於偏遠離島的縣市他在全國的競爭上會比較吃虧那這個就部長就跟環保局做溝通好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝楊耀委員"},{"start":15706.793,"end":15729.945,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員陳昭芝、邱振鈞、盧憲伊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":15744.892,"end":15771.869,"text":"因為他們三個專家在砍殺,你要不要過去跟他們握握手,讓我們把他就是委員關進來,就是立刻關進來現在去喔?看你的時間,你跟馬仔看什麼事情?因為他下午要我去拜訪立委,我有空就去,你下午我們都會在那裡,在砍殺飯店啊幾點到幾點?"},{"start":15773.571,"end":15774.897,"text":"我應該消息兩分報息兩分"}]}},{"id":"15934","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15934","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528efb6a56bedfdb3c81445fc32f41448fc03be8d109af184be4439d871dcd6d3d535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-22","start_time":"2024-05-22T08:30:16+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:22:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17504,"委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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敬請各位委員多多的指教"},{"start":2247.421,"end":2266.108,"text":"為了因應波動加劇的國際政經環境以及日益激烈的國際金融競爭未來金管會的工作重點將朝向建立安全與發展並進的新金融市場邁進將以金融安全與金融發展與創新兩大基礎"},{"start":2268.389,"end":2288.146,"text":"並從強化資本韌性、落實風險監理、健全市場行為與公司治理、落實普惠金融與消費權益保護、促進金融市場發展、加速金融與科技創新、強化永續金融等六大核心面向推動各項措施以下向各位做簡要的報告"},{"start":2289.653,"end":2306.447,"text":"一、強化資本韌性與風險建立未來將開放本國銀行得申請採用信用內部平等法 IRB 祭提資本首批的申請預計在113年6月前二、為了協助保險業厚實資本結構目前已經開放的保險業得透過國外籌資事業發債我們開放的保險業得透過設立特定目的的國外籌資事業發債以厚實資本三、"},{"start":2320.39,"end":2332.541,"text":"我們將採取有效且適合本國特性的調試過渡措施協助保險業穩健實施會計新制IFR-17與新一代清償能力制度持續強化資本結構與經營體質首先就IFR-17部分"},{"start":2337.205,"end":2350.194,"text":"為了順利接軌國際快遞準則我們強化保險業的財報品質並增強資產負債管理能力我們將採取有效且適合我國市場特性的調適措施協助保險業能夠順利在115年接軌國際財務報告準則F-17"},{"start":2354.502,"end":2376.432,"text":"二、為持續強化保險業資本結構與清償能力金管會以參著國際保險監理官協會IIS制定的保險資本標準ICS2.0嚴定新一代清償能力制度也是預計在115年實施為了實施本制度金管會已於112年、113年陸續發布三階段的"},{"start":2380.816,"end":2391.027,"text":"在地以及過渡化措施不實穩健提升保險業資本結構另外訂定差異化管理措施及獎勵措施以鼓勵保險業競速完成接軌目標"},{"start":2392.438,"end":2410.443,"text":"未來就上開接軌的措施除將定期依實際執行情形進行制度檢討外亦將持續關注國際制度的改變以及配合調整修正如整體金融情勢於國際接軌後發生重大顯著變化亦將適時進行相關制度的檢討協助業者循序漸進順利適用國際兩制度"},{"start":2416.923,"end":2445.449,"text":"再來我們將持續強化資安風險管理能力提升金融業資安標準與防護能力第二部分我們要健全市場行為與公司治理我們要持續研修金融控控公司法及銀行法強化公司治理目前金管會已經將金控公司法及銀行法的修法草案送進行政院審查以完備對負責人就責制度及公司治理"},{"start":2446.149,"end":2473.573,"text":"再來,我們將持續推動銀行責任地圖制度三、我們要強化洗錢房子與市場交易智系分階段納管虛擬資產平台與交易業務並評估未來研擬虛擬資產專法的可行性今晚會於112年9月26日發布有關的指導原則今晚會也以委託有一個委外研究"},{"start":2474.741,"end":2480.591,"text":"未來會針對這個專法部分提出研究報告我們續行是評估是否要這個訂定虛擬資產專法"},{"start":2483.84,"end":2507.957,"text":"再來因應近期的ETF熱銷的情況我們提出一些管理措施然後加強消費者的訊息保護再來有關租賃公司的爭議處理協助完善先買後付的銷保機制金管會已經責成交易所及櫃買中心督導據市場領導立位之上市櫃租賃公司訂定內部控制程序並由租賃公衛對外"},{"start":2510.178,"end":2520.643,"text":"針對消保議題納入自律規範另外針對社會關注的BMPL部分我們也將協助租賃公會完成自律規範持續的"},{"start":2524.592,"end":2541.944,"text":"進行宣導以及執行第三部分我們落實普惠金融與消保權益第一個我們要強化普惠金融的覆蓋率以及鼓勵金融業落實企業社會責任金管會將持續協同金融業者針對不同年齡、族群"},{"start":2542.584,"end":2563.915,"text":"特別是針對年輕及中高齡族群提出符合其需求之金融服務對策另將設計鼓勵機制促使金融業將市場開放及發展成長的結果與成果與利潤回饋於基層員工照顧擴大普惠金融與社區服務以加大普惠金融的覆蓋範圍善盡企業社會責任"},{"start":2566.755,"end":2587.795,"text":"二、我們將研擬高齡金融行動措施以及提升高齡金融消費權益再來我們一個重點是積極配合行政院推動打詐專法之立法目前行政院已於113年5月9日通過《詐欺犯罪危害防治條例草案等打詐新釋法》以及送大院審議"},{"start":2589.147,"end":2614.556,"text":"另外的話在這部法律裡面我們將規範的主體從金融機構還加上了提供虛擬資產服務的事業或人員那管理的標的也加入了虛擬資產的帳號推動的重點包括建立照會同業機制、通報警察機制、監警聯防機制及被害人招詐匯出款項之返還免除金融機構保密義務及避風港條款及罰則等"},{"start":2618.317,"end":2629.768,"text":"再來金管會將持續的強化防詐與增進金融安全交易金管會目前已經透過與金融業及相關部會、機構通力合作執行各項反詐措施包括"},{"start":2631.199,"end":2647.194,"text":"與內政部合作運用科技防詐以及與財經公司建立約定轉帳揮名單通報平台另外我們加強反詐宣傳教育督導金融機構落實臨櫃關懷112年我們金融機構攔截的件數達到一萬一千餘件攔阻的金額將近76億元兩年已經攔阻了近百億的詐騙金額"},{"start":2657.779,"end":2680.726,"text":"然後我們也跟警政署建立金融資料聯防通報電子化平台以及推動移設詐欺境內外金融帳戶預警制度與網路平台業者溝通加強審查確認Meta可於113年6月底前配合完成系統調整落實投資廣告實名制另外我們也修訂了證券"},{"start":2683.286,"end":2710.992,"text":"投信投顧法禁止非法有價證券投資廣告樣態並規範英才實名制同時要求網路平台業者審查廣告應負起責任我們也持續召開金融打擊詐欺高峰會等未來將持續強化金融防詐的深度與廣度我們也更進一步完備投資人保護機制持續推動接避者保護措施以及落實金融知識普及工作然後"},{"start":2711.952,"end":2737.297,"text":"再來我們要協助司法院嚴定保險契約強制執行參考原則並研議修訂保險法今晚會將協助執行機關訂定保險契約強制執行參考原則未來也將嚴定保險法制修正將明訂健康保險等保障型保險契約不以強制執行並參考國外法制納入受益人介入權制度"},{"start":2739.153,"end":2746.341,"text":"四、促進金融市場發展未來金管會將研議設置金融市場發展與創新單位"},{"start":2749.062,"end":2764.436,"text":"為了滿足金融科技創新、市場發展、永續金融、市場新機會以及法規鬆綁等需求今晚會正研議在首屬架構下增設專責單位強化金融科技發展、促進創新實驗與業務事辦推動永續金融並適度鬆綁法規、開創金融發展新契機"},{"start":2771.206,"end":2795.038,"text":"第二我們要推動常態化金融法規鬆綁機制辦理法規檢視與評估未來會因應金融市場的發展所需與提升我國國際金融競爭力針對各項金融監理法令將推動常態化的檢討機制我們會邀請金融業者及領域學者專家參與法規檢討與檢視以收集各方對金融監理法規鬆綁的建議"},{"start":2797.319,"end":2821.384,"text":"以便充分反映市場變化讓這個常態性的法規鬆綁機制能充分發揮市場溫度計效果使監理法令與時俱進三、我們配合推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心政策增進金融市場發展契機為推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心政策之規劃與執行將結合各相關單位定定我國資產管理中心發展策略與目標"},{"start":2822.304,"end":2847.091,"text":"金管會將競速盤點現行法規及實務障礙並嚴定法規調整推動法規鬆綁協調各方資源發展我國具競爭力之資產管理金融商品藉由亞洲資產管理中心的規劃以推動進一步增進我國金融市場之發展為配合上述政策金管會將持續推動開放高資產客戶財富管理業務並培育跨領域金融人才"},{"start":2849.72,"end":2874.258,"text":"4.營造有力環境引導金融業資金投入本國中小企業、六大核心戰略產業、公共投資、長照事業等投融資項目今晚會目前將持續推動本國銀行加強中小企業銀行放款方案第19期以及鼓勵保險業辦理六大核心戰略產業、公共投資、長照事業及永續發展債券投資方案全力協助國內資金投入國家各項建設"},{"start":2876.004,"end":2899.746,"text":"五、我們研修投信投股推動基金架構的不動產信託REIT再來我們會研議開放主動型的多資產ETF以及提升證券商受信業務的營運範疇放寬證券商以信託方式經營財富管理業務之門檻五、加速金融科技創新"},{"start":2900.868,"end":2915.41,"text":"我們持續推動金融科技法規調適平台二、我們鼓勵金融業運用AI智慧我們嚴定金融業運用AI指引草案將於113年6月底前公佈三、擴大金融科技業務事辦範圍"},{"start":2917.909,"end":2936.72,"text":"為增加金融科技創新個案、促進數位轉型提升金融市場整體發展效益金管會將研議鬆綁三項金融業務創新事辦規定擴大事辦範圍至非法律所禁止屬金管會職權事項之可行性以擴大事辦的範圍四、促進跨市場"},{"start":2941.317,"end":2964.609,"text":"四、促進跨市場資訊共享五、研修金融監理沙盒條例金管會將研議修正金融科技發展與創新實驗條例之可行性強化沙盒落地機制爭取國外團隊來台實驗以及鼓勵金融業與科技業共同合作六、推動開放銀行第三階段七、推動金融身份辨識、驗證轉接中心建置"},{"start":2968.368,"end":2978.304,"text":"跨體系的金融身份辨識驗證轉接中心串聯現行各體系金融身份驗證資訊提升身份驗證的互通性發展金融生態圈"},{"start":2981.315,"end":2989.118,"text":"6.強化永續金融我們將制定永續金融發展願景以成為亞洲永續金融發展點範為目標與金融業合作瞭解國際永續趨勢及倡議並積極參與國際評比項目、爭取佳績並鼓勵金融業輸出永續金融專業知識與資金透過永續方案之連帶、承銷、保險、提供服務等提升永續影響力實踐永續發展目標"},{"start":3008.459,"end":3031.895,"text":"二、發布永續轉型金融行動方案綠社持續引導金融業資金投入綠社及永續發展領域金管會將了解利害關係人推動永續淨零過程之挑戰及待協助之處研擬永續轉型金融方案並預計於第三季發布三、持續推動金融業檢探目標設定及策略規劃指引"},{"start":3033.456,"end":3043.341,"text":"1.精進金融業氣候實體風險資訊整合平台金管會已經請廉政中心建置金融業氣候實體風險資訊整合平台目前已經上線將1."},{"start":3043.341,"end":3044.401,"text":"業者使用需求持續精進5."},{"start":3044.401,"end":3045.081,"text":"持續精進綠色證券資訊平台"},{"start":3055.946,"end":3076.177,"text":"6推動永續發展債券金管會將持續推動綠色社會級永續債券之發行讓金融業可透過適當的金融工具投資公共建設再來金管會建立永續債之櫃台買賣制度推動中小型上市櫃企業發行永續可轉換公司債"},{"start":3079.813,"end":3105.109,"text":"七、金檢公開發行公司年報揭露事項我們也要精進永續經濟活動指引參考並擴大適用範圍九、發布金融機構房票率參考指引這個指引將提供金融機構對外說明機構本身或其提供之金融商品服務為綠色或永續之表達方式以名符其實這個預計在113年6月底發布金融機構房票率參考指引"},{"start":3111.485,"end":3128.344,"text":"最後金融市場為國家發展與民生經濟共榮共存關係密切金管會個人主委為我國金融市場發展奠定厚實根基本人甚感欽佩未來除延續推動各項措施外"},{"start":3129.085,"end":3143.762,"text":"亦將虛心的傾聽外界的建議關注國際的趨勢建立安全與發展並進的新金融市場為目標朝著穩健發展與開放創新的方向與所有的同仁共同努力落實推動各項金融政策"},{"start":3144.763,"end":3162.488,"text":"為達成上述目標金管會將在既有的穩健基礎下以強化資本韌性與風險監理健全市場行為與公司治理落實普惠金融與消費權益保護促進金融市場發展加速金融與科技創新強化永續金融等六大面向"},{"start":3163.548,"end":3176.371,"text":"營造安全、公平、普惠、值得信賴的金融環境以上報告敬請各位委員支持、指教並祝各位委員身體健康、萬事如意謝謝 謝謝大家好 謝謝彭金隆、彭主委"},{"start":3178.717,"end":3192.828,"text":"彭主任因為你第一次來所以就是讓你講多一點財委會一般都是簡單然後直接就進入狀況因為第一次也是歡迎你介紹現場林德福林委員顏寬恆、顏委員"},{"start":3200.643,"end":3210.679,"text":"現在開始詢答每一位委員就是8加2列席是5加1上午10點截止發言登記請第一位林德福林委員質詢"},{"start":3224.512,"end":3234.836,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是這個特別來邀請我們新任的金管會主委彭金隆請彭主委"},{"start":3236.087,"end":3257.809,"text":"彭主委啊你叫彭金隆我們還有中央銀行的總裁叫楊金隆這兩條龍啊今年是龍年好好的發揮如何去提升我們的經濟如何監管我們的金融如何穩定我們的匯率我想啊你們的責任非常重大好好的發揮來湖國立民怎麼樣"},{"start":3260.48,"end":3270.534,"text":"這是我們的責任,我們會努力來達成,謝謝我希望兩條龍能夠好好的發揮,來湖國立民那個彭主委,我想這個"},{"start":3273.753,"end":3295.624,"text":"3月的時候我們國內掀起ETF的熱潮金管會緊盯這些網紅誇大不實的行銷投信工會他們訂出自律的規範要求網紅行銷要有良民證甚至於有相關金融的證照"},{"start":3296.744,"end":3312.982,"text":"那我請問彭主委你對這方面尤其這樣的一個規範到底有沒有強制力可不可以開罰你來表達你的看法跟意見好 謝謝委員的關注這個議題因為所有的金融商品"},{"start":3313.823,"end":3341.281,"text":"他都有他一定的複雜度那這個內容呢都有他一定的風險在所以對於這個消費者的保護這個金管會一定是權利那有關剛剛提到了這個網紅跟比如投信投顧業者這主要是投信投顧工會他們擬了一個所謂的行為規範去規範說這個網紅過去的一些紀錄以及他那你規範你總是要有對不對你要有華澤"},{"start":3343.422,"end":3367.414,"text":"那金管會你們認為說未來走的方向你總不能說讓這些網紅他為了行銷但是他在這方面沒有專業甚至於誇大造成很多人一窩蜂的造成後面有後遺症有關這個罰則細節我可不可以請我們政企局的張局長來跟您做更詳細的說明好可以請張局長簡單熱要"},{"start":3371.263,"end":3386.76,"text":"剛剛的網紅規範是公會他問了業者之後所達成的共識報到局裡面來那當然報到局裡面那你們的未來要做要如何做因為將來他跟業者跟網紅簽約的時候他就要注意到他們有沒有"},{"start":3387.581,"end":3410.716,"text":"過往有詐騙的紀錄等等這些基本問題他到底有沒有這些金融證照啊到底甚至要不要良民證啊對不對要是沒有的話對不對然後他在那裡吹噓在那裡這個造成一窩蜂大家一窩蜂的牆後面衍生的後遺症我認為站在金管會的立場你們應該要有態度啊"},{"start":3412.68,"end":3436.492,"text":"我們的態度基本上支持工會他現在對智力之間他的想法他只有智力而已沒有後續的處罰因為工會會有處罰規範如果他們違反規範的時候我是希望軍管會在這方面你們著重要去加強管理而且一定要訂出規範才不會很多人一口風的來吵好不好那個彭主任你的看法呢"},{"start":3438.606,"end":3461.561,"text":"剛才張議長也說其實我們在這個治理規範其實是有他的罰則就是他們內部是有這個罰則那我想說這個是今晚會責無旁貸我們會多加督導我是認為你們要去研議看到底要怎麼去要求規範讓他能夠上軌道不是讓他在那裡網紅吹噓以後一窩蜂大家搶到最後造成很多後遺症"},{"start":3462.403,"end":3469.666,"text":"好不好是那個主委啊是台股上個禮拜創歷史的新高紀錄中場上漲了157.05點21304.26外界也關注520當天的行情啊那媒體報導就是這個"},{"start":3485.394,"end":3508.133,"text":"總統賴清德11點花表演說的時候提到兩岸互不隸屬這一句話一出整個台股歡黑猶如坐坐大怒神一路重挫超過150點雖然最後有一點收盤小帳但是又傳出政府出面來護盤到底有沒有護盤主委有沒有護盤"},{"start":3512.648,"end":3539.085,"text":"就是有關當天的這個股票的漲跌當然是有漲有跌我們也都有密切關注不過看起來這兩天的股市是相對穩定的不是這兩天啦當天你們到底有沒有護盤嘛這個可能不是我們金管會的因為齁請問主委對於台股大盤這樣的反應你認為是不是太過脆弱或者是過於敏感對於台股的健全發展你認為政府護盤的"},{"start":3541.206,"end":3547.131,"text":"金管會是一個證券市場的主管機關我們面對股市的漲跌其實我們態度主要是制度的健全對這個漲跌我們尊重市場你對台股未來表達"},{"start":3562.143,"end":3575.277,"text":"這個你未來的一個期待如何來期待呢就站在金管會的立場認為其實影響股市短期當然是消息面但中長期還是回歸基本面我們對台灣的基本面很有信心關主委今年"},{"start":3579.139,"end":3602.021,"text":"這個過年的時候你投書聯合報內容預言那個期書推背圖的這個稱言那對照受選業當前面臨的處境來表示其中具有極端的這個極高的巧合雖然推背圖沒有標示時間"},{"start":3603.402,"end":3623.191,"text":"必須質詢軌跡但是主委你說對照這個證言的內容來觀察保險市場以及接軌國際制度的諸多現況確實也有幾分的道理那本席要請教主委推背圖第24項"},{"start":3627.933,"end":3643.282,"text":"這個趁雨啊這個美人自熙來那朝中日漸安長工在地為而不為的這個內容那來對照目前保險市場的狀況已經走到哪裡你的看法勒"},{"start":3645.339,"end":3669.272,"text":"謝謝委員還有看我那個短文我想那是以前在彭教授的時候寫的文章我想這個其實現在來看的話就陳主委員這個就是因為這篇文章最主要講的一個概念就是說其實它會有一個問題但是適緩則遠我們給予一些很能夠吻合在地化的過渡措施應該是可以這個應該是安度這樣的一個問題"},{"start":3670.854,"end":3683.789,"text":"主委因為昏老已久保險市場接軌國際制度剛上任的主委的你是不是導向朝中日建安的關鍵是不是這樣子"},{"start":3685.811,"end":3705.348,"text":"我想穩定金融市場絕對是監理官這個最重要的工作我想這個我們會持續來推動這件事情讓我們的金融市場安定如果是的話那趁雨後半段是不是可解讀金管會將會用最有利於國內保險市場的規範盡快讓業者獲利回歸正軌"},{"start":3707.91,"end":3733.305,"text":"是不是這樣子應該是臺灣的市場有它的獨特性國際的制度它有它的一般性我們必須兼顧到我們自己的獨特性跟國際上的一般性那要是如果不是的話那麼是不是還有其他影響保險市場的天機呢卻有不可洩露的存在有沒有未來其實所有金融市場都面對著國內外政經情勢的波動其實我們會密切關注"},{"start":3735.669,"end":3749.176,"text":"推背圖固然玄奇但是回到現實面來看許多金融業公會的代表在和你會面後對媒體表示業者對你上任"},{"start":3750.437,"end":3776.046,"text":"懷抱著相當大的一個期待據瞭解國內授權業面臨的最大難題就是2026年即將上路的ICS、IFRS時期的新制因為業者面臨極大的爭執壓力那請問主委媒體報導對於授權業目前的難題你和金管會黃天牧前主委在ICS問題上的態度"},{"start":3779.086,"end":3804.295,"text":"這個有所不同那請問媒體報導到底是空穴來風還是言之鑿鑿其實我覺得跟黃主委的其實沒有太大的不同只是說黃主委負責撥話我負責執行其實制度的實施是來解決問題不是來製造問題所以我們新的制度是要解決我們未來的問題我們一定會持續穩健的讓這個制度能夠讓我們的保險業者能夠安心的來執行"},{"start":3805.655,"end":3829.283,"text":"如果接軌國際制度的決策態度真的不同那你認為要採取更嚴謹的規範還是更彈性的寬鬆的一個規範呢?跟委員報告我們剛才講過臺灣的保險市場有非常獨特的獨特性我們必須要很誠懇的面對這樣一個問題所以我們一定會朝這個方向從穩健務實的方式去解決這個問題"},{"start":3830.623,"end":3857.51,"text":"主委你被視為這個整個綠營執政以來對金融業最友善的一個主委過去你曾居中來解決企業的難題被稱為點子王所以外界解讀你樂於助人的個性在監理上恐將成為挑戰那保險業是否會繼續接軌ICS將成為你擔任主委首要的一個難題"},{"start":3859.411,"end":3876.2,"text":"請問主委外界對你的看法你認為正不正確我想不同的位置所擔負的責任不同我們會扮演好我金管會主委的角色還是你認為這個外界對你的看法還是有不小的落差當然這個由我自己來回答好了"},{"start":3879.64,"end":3903.751,"text":"保險業接軌ICS這是前任主委提出的監理措施目的是讓保險公司的財務更加健全大多數保險公司是因為股東必須掏出用於增資的金額高達數千億所以說壓力很大那我請問主委你認為接軌國際制度是不是絕對必要做的事"},{"start":3904.491,"end":3923.141,"text":"我剛才講說一個制度是主要是來解決我們的問題因為臺灣的保險市場有它自己獨特的問題當然一個制度很多值得參考我們一定要來做但是我們在地化的調適還是非常重要好 如果是的話那你認為給業者15年的緩衝期增資數千億業者到底做得到"},{"start":3924.74,"end":3948.199,"text":"做得到嗎?你認為可不可以?以我們現在目前試算的結果應該是可以做得到要是做不到的話那這個如果不是必要做的事那請問接軌國際還有其他的這個對不對其他的可以做的事嗎?是 謝謝那個制度的優化沒有止盡我們會隨時的努力這樣喔?謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":3955.563,"end":3977.358,"text":"下一質詢請吳秉瑞吳委員主席麻煩請金管會彭主委請彭主委謝委員彭主委早 早 早剛剛看到您的報告"},{"start":3978.547,"end":4001.499,"text":"那基本上是延續之前金管會的做法但是有一部分想要做更積極的事情那現在就各個方面先跟你請教就是說因為臺灣在中國的曝險比例雖然下降但是總金額事實上仍然居高不下你知道現在曝險有多少嗎?對中國"},{"start":4003.819,"end":4019.072,"text":"這個數字我可不可以很抱歉那個我沒很清楚掌握是不是可以請我們銀行局稍微準備一下再跟委員報告也不是只有銀行局這個問題我一直在問所以這個早都有了數字9529億我們看到銀行這邊是9529億那保險呢1200多億"},{"start":4024.298,"end":4039.154,"text":"一千兩百餘億所以要一兆多嘛至少但是還不包括影子銀行等等這些的機構所以因為那個也沒有是金管會監管的部分所以你也無法統計也就是說臺灣對中國跟對香港的曝險金額仍然非常的龐大"},{"start":4045.066,"end":4070.253,"text":"那你也知道中國現在經濟狀況非常的糟糕他甚至有可能是有硬著陸危風險包括他現在房地產嚴重折價大都會上海折價50%房子還賣不出去這麼嚴重的問題然後他的金融機構舉新還舊不然的話他都已經很多債券都破產在國際之間的性貧都一直下調"},{"start":4072.093,"end":4098.883,"text":"那如果中國發生系統性的風險臺灣這些曝險本身也沒有完整的防火牆機構會不會使得這些損失會延燒回來臺灣造成臺灣的金融危機是我想這個問題金管會過去一向很關注我想有些具體措施我們可不可以請我們銀行局或是其他的保安局跟委員進行說明請銀行局說一下"},{"start":4102.802,"end":4120.932,"text":"報告委員其實就是針對中國的曝險我們一直是長期的關注的那其實只要是海外曝險的話首先第一個我們對中國的曝險我們已經要求提那個準備就是放款的準備其實是比其他海外地區都還要高"},{"start":4121.352,"end":4127.374,"text":"他要提到1.5倍所以這個部分的話某種程度上面其實已經就是為了預防這個風險那從質方面的話其實不管是所有海外的曝險在總行機構裡面他們都要有一個專責的單位來看海外的曝險那特別是針對中國的部分的話隨時我們都有關注他是哪一些的產業是比較風險比較高的"},{"start":4150.48,"end":4173.778,"text":"這個部分的話存款保險那個存保中央存保這邊也有幫我們一起注意所以如果有發現有任何比較大的風險事件的時候我們都會專請金融機構來注意好 謝謝其實主委我今天不是要問局長這些意見我是要提醒你這個是我在財務會13年來一直在關注的議題而且這個議題在我來看沒有減輕"},{"start":4179.424,"end":4203.49,"text":"還在繼續在嚴重發生中以前可以不要忽略香港不要中國跟香港分際現在香港已經被內化成中國一個城市即將美國對香港的態度都會轉變在這樣的狀況之下香港跟中國的互選如果加在一起金額遠比你今天統計的要大得多了台灣對香港過去是給予特殊的地位"},{"start":4205.971,"end":4220.152,"text":"現在有風險說美元可能在美國的參眾兩院的檢討之下有可能被踢出這個港元有可能被踢出美元的換算機制有這樣的風險存在萬一發生的時候中國的系統性風險香港的港元的這些危機"},{"start":4221.567,"end":4238.436,"text":"我們有沒有準備一套面對這個問題必須因應的方法這是你今天報告裡面所沒有的所以我要提醒你要注意這個事情我希望你們不要忽略這一點不要說預測到有可能前方"},{"start":4240.545,"end":4254.114,"text":"會有熱帶性氣血就是颱風它也有可能會來但是你都把它適合不見我就埋頭在國內的環境不可以這個樣子謝謝委員提醒謝謝這是一個第二個我還要再提醒"},{"start":4255.424,"end":4270.53,"text":"金融機構你所監理的對象他們無論是在經濟上、財政上、法律知識上、人力上都遠高於消費者兩者之間基本上不是平等的"},{"start":4271.829,"end":4287.097,"text":"所以我們必須要支持消費者要輔助消費者提高消費者法律能力各方面的能力所以才能夠讓他跟財團之間稍微平衡不可能完全平衡"},{"start":4288.959,"end":4312.18,"text":"簽訂的都是定期化契約然後用了很多的法律陷阱你剛剛提到的先購後付先享受後付款等等這些就是這樣子的類型那你所監理的對象要注意要扶弱易強第二個要保護消費者"},{"start":4313.663,"end":4336.517,"text":"那對於這些金融機構用那麼大的人力請了這麼多人在變相一直在想說要用什麼方法真正最賺錢的是制定制度的人我在這邊這麼久的經驗我跟你講以前在賣那個什麼高比例的那個什麼那個什麼TRF就是錢都被制度的設計者賺走"},{"start":4339.834,"end":4368.442,"text":"爛攤子全部都留給我們大家讓我們這邊還得必須要想辦法幫他解決這個要念之再知因為這個不是說你現在沒有就代表未來不會產生這些人啊他會繼續華爾街智囊這樣的概念他會繼續去製造新的遊戲規則然後讓大家都在他的遊戲規則裡面玩讓他可以獲取暴利這一點我認為未來一定還會再發生從早年的"},{"start":4369.588,"end":4398.163,"text":"金融卡借錢免還借錢merit現金卡等等一路來我們已經走過多少的這個金融風暴有大有小那就是因為有這些高智商的人他在設計遊戲規則給一般人一般人沒有那麼高的視野也沒有那麼長眼光也沒有這樣的知識、經濟能力所以就在人家的遊戲制度裡面玩我再舉例子"},{"start":4399.558,"end":4423.101,"text":"現在這個虛擬貨幣幾乎全世界都知道啊洗錢主要的管道就是虛擬貨幣啊那虛擬貨幣的控制者很大一部分的比例是中國啊中國一下子承認他合法他就滿天仗一下子說這個是洗錢的工具打擊他他就崩盤這樣來來回回已經幾次了"},{"start":4424.666,"end":4451.072,"text":"這種可被國家操控性的虛擬資產、虛擬貨幣今天大家說因為已經太大了所以我們必須承認它的存在所以行政院也指定貴單位作為主管機關可是我們還在人家的遊戲規則下面在玩連本身整個國家的制度都在這個遊戲規則底下玩玩得過人家嗎"},{"start":4453.052,"end":4462.835,"text":"不會被人家這樣子吸乾媽進嗎這個都是必須要思考這個幾項問題看看你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":4464.282,"end":4483.142,"text":"這個謝謝委員提醒包括剛才那個對大陸跟香港的這個負險的總和管制還有就是我們提到那個消費者資訊跟知識不對稱對他需要保護的部分我覺得還有虛擬資產的部分我覺得有關那個消費者保護一向就是我們最重要的一個工作"},{"start":4483.883,"end":4509.118,"text":"然後再來就是有關虛擬資產跟虛擬交易的部分現在整個的監管我們正在做很多面向的這個管理因為現在我們被指定為這個主政的單位所以我們在很多從反洗錢開始接下來在做剛剛也有跟委員報告那個專法的嚴厲我們已經成立專案在做這件事情我們希望務必做到剛剛講很多的問題能夠做有效的解決"},{"start":4510.679,"end":4530.937,"text":"那這個是我在這邊跟你第一次對話也是對你的期待啦我希望當然資本市場能夠讓人家有靈活做生意的機會那個是要去發展但是同時不要忘記你是金融監督管理喔你負責這個在走鋼索要balance"},{"start":4532.431,"end":4546.463,"text":"我們現在說的,台語叫做電梯行背,事實上是在走鋼索,所以要戰戰兢兢,稍微不平衡都會出問題,很多事情發生也不在我們"},{"start":4547.987,"end":4568.875,"text":"法院突然決定說保險公司做的人身保險這個產值可以當作執行的標的馬上這樣案件排山倒海就立刻來了但是貴單位是主管單位我認為你們反應的態度是正確的速度上面可以加強因為已經有太多這樣子的陳情案件來到服務處"},{"start":4570.155,"end":4590.687,"text":"我們民意代表的服務處也會為了這些社會的個案疲於奔命當然我們大家都是一起努力要解決社會的問題那這樣的事情未來還會層出不窮我希望將來還有機會再跟你再繼續接觸總是我們今天是第一次要高度要拉高希望你帶著正確的心態能夠為我們臺灣能夠福國利民謝謝你感謝委員"},{"start":4602.162,"end":4623.107,"text":"接下來請嚴寬恆嚴委員介紹現場賴世保賴委員主席各位列席官員大家早主席我想請我們金管會彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":4628.729,"end":4645.143,"text":"謝銀委員恭喜主委主委金融會負責國家金融的業務包括保險、證券、期貨及銀行等相關目前在維持金融穩定建立公平健康能獲利的金融環境在你看來"},{"start":4646.482,"end":4662.547,"text":"我國的金融市場是否有達到金管會的一個目標那當然我也期許就是說就任之後這個主委你就任之後這個業務能夠積極然後不打折那營造一個安全公平值得信賴的一個金融環境"},{"start":4663.493,"end":4690.607,"text":"好不好是主委是我們努力是那我這邊先告訴主委目前臺灣的金融市場距離金管會的目標還有一大段路那公平的定義就是要諮詢要公開對等但是三大融資公司中租、育融、合潤這個帶來的亂象我想很多這個討論在立法院的討論非常的已經是"},{"start":4691.807,"end":4710.24,"text":"眾所皆知把錢借給一些信用不佳還款能力差或者是信用小白的這些對象然後可以不受金管會的監管收取高額的利息那這樣子跟高利貸有什麼不一樣那就等於說政府默許"},{"start":4711.921,"end":4733.992,"text":"這樣一個行為那你認為這樣公平嗎?融資公司今晚會可以容許這樣子的作為那我想請教我之前在詢問黃主委的時候黃主委說這個部分已經在研究辦法那我想請教這個辦法什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":4736.109,"end":4751.576,"text":"現在有關融資公司的管理我想這是我們社會上非常矚目的議題那現在我們的做法就是剛剛委員您提到我們現在有三大的融資公司它大概就佔了這個市場大概90%的份額"},{"start":4753.237,"end":4770.928,"text":"那這部分的話我們已經透過比如說我們上市櫃公司的方式來進行這個管理那再來的話我們也請他們在一個工會的自律架構下面把我們過去所關切的這些消費者權益影響的部分請他訂立自律規範來做這樣的納管那我想"},{"start":4771.829,"end":4800.024,"text":"接下來我們也會透過這樣的一個平台持續的來關注這樣的議題專法什麼時候會出來專法我們現在的話就是我們現在正在收集各個國家對這樣的管理的模式我們知道有關融資公司的部分並不是每個國家都是由金融監理機關來管理經理這個主委時間要拉快因為這個事情已經層出不窮太多的弊病不只這個啦更嚴重的像詐騙"},{"start":4804.063,"end":4819.816,"text":"這個可以說詐騙集團跟融資公司的相互配合讓這些人借了融資公司的錢錢還不出來的時候在詐騙集團把人"},{"start":4820.854,"end":4840.101,"text":"蓋進來然後融資公司再依照合約跟悲哀人追討那如果要解約還要付高額的違約金那這就是這些融資公司因為無法可管所產生的漏洞所以我們又再再三的提醒要求但是我們沒有看到金管會積極的作為所以我們期許說這個會期"},{"start":4842.563,"end":4842.964,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會主席"},{"start":4857.463,"end":4876.155,"text":"這個做法就是我們現在的自律規範裡面定的內容大概都有針對大家關注一體做管理當然有關專法的部分我們還要再研議就是說比如說要看各國的這樣那個監理還有就是未來它的樣態其實這個公司實際規模是那個數量是非常的多這部分我們會來持續來研究"},{"start":4876.775,"end":4904.328,"text":"好再來是虛擬貨幣剛剛我們很多委員都提到虛擬貨幣已經是第一個它起伏價格起伏不定然後穩定性低成為炒作投資的標的那無法可管而且發行門檻低交易自由度高被不法人士利用成為洗錢、滋恐、逃稅的工具那所以我想之前我們的黃主委上任我們黃主委他針對"},{"start":4906.275,"end":4924.174,"text":"他也回應說這個針對證券或期貨交易都有一個具體的規範手段就是透過特許執照還有這個控制市場的准入來一個指導原則當中但是需要完成這個洗錢防治法的一個遵循但是"},{"start":4925.216,"end":4950.674,"text":"目前我們沒有這個部分虛擬貨幣的部分那你新任金管會主委那你要什麼作為現在有關那個虛擬資產的交易的部分我們現在在洗錢防治法裡面現在正跟法務部在嚴定這個法規的修訂未來會採許可制的部分這會有效的可以對一些幣商的行為做一些納管"},{"start":4951.474,"end":4957.178,"text":"當然我剛才也跟委員報告過我們金管會現在也有請人研議這個虛擬資產管理專法現在的話預計今年9月這個報告出來我們會來就仔細的研議看看怎麼樣未來落實"},{"start":4967.352,"end":4988.745,"text":"比照歐盟其他國家加密資產的規範就是向該國主管機關來申請許可那當然這個場景之際就是要有一個專法那現在目前就像你剛剛提到的說是專法還沒出來那怎麼規範它"},{"start":4989.685,"end":5000.742,"text":"現在的話我們就請他們他們這個虛擬資產業者他們今年會成立一個工會那我們會去指導他建立他們的自立規範用自立規範的方式先暫時針對這個空窗期來進行規範"},{"start":5003.427,"end":5031.829,"text":"那時間多久?現在應該是預計他們是6月6月這個公會6月專法就會出來不是就是我們現在他的公會因為他們現在是一個比較6月才會組成這個公會他們現在正在申請那組成公會之後要等待專法的一個成立要多久時間專法我們剛剛跟委員報告過就是我們9月的那個計畫出來會有一個架構那我們看看先用自立規範先行做一個實驗然後接下來明年我們來看看這個立法的進程"},{"start":5032.549,"end":5052.602,"text":"好那主委再一個請教就是你是保險的專家那針對保險法第177條的修正主要是針對保險優惠員還有的勞動權益來訂定的那它有關的不僅僅是保險優惠員的權益還有保護的權益跟保障那同時避免保險公司假承攬、徵僱傭甚至於這個亂賣保險產品"},{"start":5056.624,"end":5073.062,"text":"那我們這個前主委黃主委是告訴本席說金管會沒有要考慮修法沒有要考慮修法那但是本席認為說除了保險法之外保險業務院管理規則也需要跟著同步的修正"},{"start":5075.084,"end":5085.249,"text":"保險委員的勞動契約包括教育訓練、講診制度還有申訴管道等等這些權益部分金管會應該要會同勞動部來修訂不論是業績考核還有納入勞動合約的部分"},{"start":5092.112,"end":5112.544,"text":"他們也都是講成辦法與管理規則之名但是金管會對此亂象卻僅是發函給各保險公會來進行道德勸說讓這些保險業務員承擔遭到不合理管考的苦果那你是否願意做更進步的努力來對保險法第177條保險業務員的勞動權益還有保護的權益來做更精進的修訂"},{"start":5118.047,"end":5130.663,"text":"當然對所有保險利害相關人的權益保護金管會都關切啦那剛剛委員剛剛您只是177條的那個修正現在的情況可不可以允許我請保險局局長跟您做回答,謝謝好,簡單說明"},{"start":5132.452,"end":5160.058,"text":"是 鮑委員因為那個保險業務員我們在管理規則規範是他的招攬行為那針對業務員的教育訓練、獎懲跟申訴管道在管理規則其實有要求做訂定啦那每一家公司都要把這個獎懲制度還有申訴管道建立好那申訴管道的部分那個審議的委員也都有一些平衡的規定包括業務員跟公司"},{"start":5160.618,"end":5161.138,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5187.916,"end":5211.987,"text":"還是要請主委積極的來把這個針對保險法的修訂來做一個更精進的一個設計好不好那接下來我再請教就是跟主委探討一個我們現在最痛恨的問題就是詐騙電信詐騙的部分那尤其是金融詐騙會使民眾的心血畢生的積蓄可能在一夜之間就"},{"start":5213.607,"end":5217.671,"text":"有限公司、監管相關機構有限公司、監管相關結算所股份"},{"start":5230.29,"end":5259.25,"text":"遭受到這樣子一個詐騙的行為那不像過去我們臨櫃的時候都到銀行櫃台做臨櫃辦理會有銀行的行員來做一個把關嘛那不曉得金管會有沒有應對措施這部分我們對打詐非常的重視尤其我們最近呢不只是金管會我們跟速發部跟法務部跟內政部組成一個聯防我們會持續的推動很多有關金管會主管主詐的部分我們會做很多的努力"},{"start":5260.73,"end":5285.435,"text":"打詐是非常重要的尤其現在詐騙橫行那我希望主委你上任一定要把這個作為一個首要最重要的任務好不好是不要讓國人都長期處在這種非常不安非常這種屬於金融詐騙危險的環境當中讓臺灣不要再有那種金融詐騙輸出金融詐騙出口的那一種惡名"},{"start":5288.516,"end":5294.06,"text":"可以嗎?沒問題那今晚會一定全力以赴謝謝謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝這位質詢請賴會員賴委員謝謝主席有請金管會主委請彭主委"},{"start":5318.584,"end":5339.195,"text":"主委早安主委非常歡迎我們一起為國家來努力那在這裡我想就是跟你請教一下那個你的人事的一個公布是在4月底5月初嘛對不對那你拜訪過我們羅明彩召委的嗎"},{"start":5340.175,"end":5364.498,"text":"因為昨天本來安排但是我們突然昨天才要安排因為我520上任那整天整天都在我現在講的你是4月底公布的對那5月初距離這一段時間這麼長的時間召委沒有拜訪那其他的委員也沒有拜訪其他我們都是本來安排在上任以後才開始拜訪"},{"start":5365.778,"end":5389.741,"text":"我覺得是這樣子可能你的幕僚有稍嫌不足稍嫌不足其實我也是第一次才看到你我看我挑了這張照片這張照片非常的帥謝謝我沒有同感我還挑了一張最帥的所以說主委我想就是幕僚的一個加強這個是非常需要的因為"},{"start":5391.26,"end":5420.78,"text":"大家號稱你是點子王你是一個非常能溝通的一個在產官協界一個很特別的一個人才那我們希望就是說你來接掌金管會你會有一個非常好的好的一個戰績也是一個成績那可是在這裡我要請教主委你曾經擔任宏泰人壽中國人壽還有就是台銀還有中信保險子公司的一個獨董"},{"start":5422.02,"end":5441.967,"text":"那這些你跟業界的關聯性互動這麼直接在未來會不會有業界的一個壓力呢我想這應該是不會有這個問題因為其實站在一個行政機關依法行政我想這部分因為我現在擔任金管會的角色我就一定全力做好這個分際"},{"start":5443.476,"end":5463.678,"text":"當然你非常有自信那可是這三家保險公司其實他們都面臨到了一個就是說財務那個他的財務指標一直拉警報那這樣子你怎麼樣就是處理這三家保險公司的增資的一個問題怎麼解決它呢"},{"start":5464.525,"end":5464.885,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5479.634,"end":5506.543,"text":"就在委員指正我們回去會虛心檢討在這段時間你沒有來拜訪我們嘛所以就是說你應該也有很多這些業界就是不管那個中興保險公司還是整個宏泰宏泰人壽現在面臨到非常大的一個財務指標的一個困境那你沒有想到如果是利用政治的問題怎麼樣來解決這三家保險公司因為保險是你的內行啊有沒有想過這樣的一個問題"},{"start":5507.463,"end":5521.117,"text":"就是剛才委員那個指教這三家公司我想鴻泰他現在應該是我們資本氏族應該是達標的公司是那剛才就是委員提到就是新光面他指教了達標喔是那你也知道他其實有很大的一個困難點喔"},{"start":5522.648,"end":5537.434,"text":"所以我們都會密切關注因為我們大概每半年會去按照依法會檢視他的資本市足率那目前就剛剛那個宏泰他是符合我們的規定那當然後面這兩家確實是他現在還在按照我們的增資計畫在進行中"},{"start":5539.966,"end":5564.082,"text":"是是所以就是說在這裡特別跟主委做一個提醒這三家保險公司跟主委的一個曾經的一個互動是這麼緊密的好在未來我們也知道說主委他你的支持你的一個態度你是希望外匯資產負債的一個不配"},{"start":5564.802,"end":5590.834,"text":"不配備這個是你的一個態度嘛那我們當然希望就是說這個慢慢以後有很多的一個議題大家可以共同的一個討論到底臺灣的一個資金是要拿到海外去投資還是我們有沒有辦法成功的把海外的資金拿回來投資我們本體我們臺灣自己的一個產業我們臺灣的一個非常多的一個產業是非常好的"},{"start":5591.294,"end":5615.189,"text":"那這個有賴於就是說主委你個人對於這個整個就是我們國家的一個標的那這個是大家必須要透過不同的一個問題慢慢的來探討的特別提醒你因為我想就是說在於你的一個專業裡頭那就是保險當然是沒有問題那你可以就是說迎刃而解"},{"start":5615.749,"end":5643.284,"text":"可是面對金融的一個現狀我們當然希望主委你是準備好了那在這裡再特別跟主委再請教一下沿用上個委員沿寬衡委員的一個議題就是說這個主任公司的一個問題那如果我從你的一個報告裡頭我想這個對於融資的主任公司你還是把這個爭議你還是把它丟給就是"},{"start":5644.164,"end":5657.97,"text":"就是櫃買中心還是證交所去解決這些問題如果這些問題可以透過這兩個單位解決的話我相信不用很多很多的委員不斷的一直在提醒你"},{"start":5659.576,"end":5681.248,"text":"這個是一個非常大的一個問題主委你看過這個三道猴子這塊片子嗎我有聽過你有聽過那你的幕僚沒有給你看這個其實是存在當今社會很多很多的一個問題住院公司他透過一個不正常的一個管道你看喔他"},{"start":5682.168,"end":5702.722,"text":"竟然有辦法換高利貸超過22倍所以我們銀行那個不能做的他全部都可以做他也可以透過那個第三地的錢進到中國那他也可以就是違反土建融的一個限制所有銀行不能做的"},{"start":5703.522,"end":5714.42,"text":"他通通都能做那你怎麼辦呢你要知道這個到最後到最後如果他倒了是誰他掛掉了是誰要去承擔這個後果"},{"start":5716.335,"end":5734.788,"text":"當然是簽名買單啊那為什麼我們一再的一再的在提醒就是這麼大的一個問題那你們都沒有去考慮到啦就是說從你的報告裡頭你也把這個爭議的一個處理的事情你顯然也是輕輕的一個帶過我覺得這一個態度是讓我覺得"},{"start":5737.93,"end":5765.62,"text":"要特別再提醒主委你一定要去小心這一個議題這個議題是存在了非常大的一個社會的一個治安我們未來的未來的一個金融管理的一個很大的一個問題尤其這個中豬啊他借了公股1359億前進到中國他的高研製力非常嚴重未來他勢必會影響到我們金融的穩定性這從"},{"start":5767.441,"end":5785.344,"text":"三個月前到三個月後我們甚至看到了它的研製力越來越高所以你勢必勢必一定要去重視這些問題是不知道主委你怎麼看待這個事勒其實剛剛跟委員報告一些就是說我們對融資公司我們確實是寄予高度的這個注意"},{"start":5785.945,"end":5811.164,"text":"那我剛才也有報告過就是說雖然說現在看起來我們現在沒有專法但是我們已經有各種的管控措施在管控當然現在假如執行成效不如外界的預期我們會來加強處理那我剛才提到就是說我們也在收集各國對融資公司管理的這個內涵呢我們也考慮去研議未來的這個是否有要以專法來管理的可能性呢"},{"start":5812.11,"end":5836.187,"text":"主委我們期待你是用一個專法來管理它而不是用一個行政的一個手段光是行政的一個手段顯然是不足以應付這個怪獸了所以就是說你必須要去探討我們也希望就是說你把一些相關性的一些這個在網路上就是一直在流通的這一些真的就是呈現出來住院公司"},{"start":5837.087,"end":5854.723,"text":"貨海這麼多的一個年輕人還有這麼多一個需要資金的人這些狀況你快速的把它瀏覽過你才知道這個沒有誇張這個真的是呈現在我們四周圍我們的服務處不斷的接到了就是這個本席來自於一個農業的一個選區裡頭當你看到"},{"start":5858.326,"end":5871.892,"text":"一對老爸爸老媽媽他們帶著他們剛到這個都會城市裡頭來念書的一個兒子那他就是被主任公司綁住了這種我們都非常的痛為什麼"},{"start":5873.325,"end":5889.658,"text":"他幾乎就是還沒有出社會他就是負擔了很大很大的一個負債了這個不是只有卡債不是只有學債的問題而已他可能一輩子他都換不了身了所以為什麼你們一直不重視這個問題你們到底在怕什麼呢"},{"start":5889.978,"end":5917.072,"text":"其實我們是很重視只是說方法上面我們會來持續再思考有什麼更好的方法是主委我們希望就是說你用更好的一個行政方式用更好的一個專法然後來約束顯然他已經從公股銀行搬了這麼多的一個錢這個是我們查得到的還有更多是我們查不到的我相信就是說你們看整體的一個財務報表你們會比我們更清楚這個還是我們"},{"start":5918.032,"end":5925.824,"text":"就是只是靠了助理從網路上搜尋下來的我相信在業界一定有更深的一個了解"},{"start":5926.926,"end":5948.88,"text":"主委我們對你期待非常高我們對你有很大的一個驅喜那我們希望就是說金管會在未來其實是一個行政團隊最大最大的一個亮點我們不希望就是說一直在喊金融科技其實這個金融科技已經喊太久了"},{"start":5949.66,"end":5971.373,"text":"其實某種程度也是監管套利我們希望就是說我們期待這個主委他有更高的一個亮點有更好的一個未來那可以帶領我們臺灣的一個經濟走向一個更好的未來這個是那個中心對主委的一個驅喜趕快來拜訪那個兩位召委謝謝來委員的勉勵謝謝我們一定趕快補上謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":5979.386,"end":5990.657,"text":"有需要的話也請賴委員一起我們就來做一個輕鬆的早餐會或是喝咖啡也可以歡迎接著請賴世保賴委員謝謝主席齊科欣欣有請主委請彭主委"},{"start":6008.188,"end":6037.321,"text":"你早賴委員好我看你第一次來有點緊張嗎有不要緊張這個外面對你的評價一開始都不錯了說你人人不錯你當教授的時候常常替業界出點子啊替他們解決啊什麼之類你看到那個我們的這個市局長啊小細細的因為你來當主委又是保險的是不是所以你是當教授"},{"start":6038.649,"end":6066.235,"text":"就是讓業界跟你關係很好業界放鞭炮特別是保險業可是你要看金管會的執掌是兩塊一塊監理一塊就是金融產業的發展我今天看你的報告啊老實講你金融產業的發展談得蠻多的相對監理談得不多監理談得不多所以外界就擔心喔"},{"start":6067.763,"end":6083.012,"text":"經理的話就是人家會討厭你本來原來當教授、當副院長人人好、人人愛現在要管人家、人人嫌當一個被討厭的人你的心境怎麼調整"},{"start":6083.888,"end":6103.817,"text":"其實我會接下這個工作這個當然心情已經調整了那剛才委員指正說我的報告裡面可能比較少確實因為這次主要是針對業務報告因為我們距離上次的業務報告就有點近我只針對主要是我為了要推動其實我們的監理的內容其實很多我是沒有寫在上面就我們會持續的推動"},{"start":6104.817,"end":6130.274,"text":"這個金融安全是最重要的但是安全之餘就跟委員剛才提到的發展也是很重要市場沒有了也沒有什麼監理的標的所以我覺得這部分我們會這個持續的強化這沒有問題這個現在我覺得發展沒人會擔心因為你這一塊人脈已經在那裡了現在大家擔心的是你的監理你不能做到真正的鐵面無私"},{"start":6132.022,"end":6135.584,"text":"我請教你幾個重大的政策來因為我剛看你回答其他的委員都很簡短了我希望你就簡短因為好幾個問題要問當初的證交稅要不要繼續跳槍"},{"start":6161.085,"end":6185.692,"text":"我們的意見已經給了主管監督我們從金融市場監理的角度來看我們現在是提給財政部說我們是支持然後維持五年的維持再延長五年嘛現在是這樣有其他不同聲音出來喔包括教授也好包括我們立委也有人提出來說這個老半天當從"},{"start":6187.808,"end":6203.949,"text":"都沒賺錢的賺瘦了這樣啥進啥出你要不要講一下大概當中平均最大活力者是誰然後大部分一般的一般一般的一般大戶散戶是配愛貴"},{"start":6205.348,"end":6232.763,"text":"當初呢我們有請交易所有統計這個資料那當然從我們從買進賣出的價差來看那獲利的人數跟賠錢的人數來看獲利是稍微多一點賠錢少一點但是金額上面確實是以那個價差來看是賠錢的金額大一點不過它賠錢主要是集中在某一個區塊上面兩個區塊對這個我們可不可以請我們交易所要間斷喔因為我實在"},{"start":6235.085,"end":6247.016,"text":"來跟委員報告那那個當沖的部分來講的話剛才主委提到就是說我們的事實上當沖的賺的人數大概53%然後賠錢的部分是47%那13%這樣子的一個人呢基本上呢"},{"start":6257.907,"end":6258.267,"text":"小賺小賠誰是最大獲利者?"},{"start":6287.23,"end":6310.613,"text":"最大獲利者最大獲利者最大獲利者你不好意思講我聽你講你跟我說yes就好了最大獲利就是第一個政府嘛整家稅一里修啊對吧是同意嘛齁第二個券商啊手續費一里修啊做內定啊對吧這兩個賺最多"},{"start":6312.543,"end":6322.929,"text":"其他呢小戶小賺小賠大戶呢沒什麼大賺賠的比較多就這個意思是不是報告委員你剛才講的是正確的但是我覺得"},{"start":6324.074,"end":6339.183,"text":"但是我覺得說還有一個因素跟委員報告就是說因為當中產生的市場的機制這個中性的機制所產生的量能事實上也吸引了更讓這個我們的整個資本市場這樣就說說看政府的稅收多了就對了第二個金融營業稅5%的問題來講一下態度是什麼"},{"start":6348.268,"end":6374.737,"text":"現在我們103年改成稅法改成就是我們5%裡面3%是歸國庫2%是歸進入到特別準備那今年10年到期落日了所以我們金管會的態度是認為說這個兩千一百多億的特別準備希望能夠保留在我們存保這邊作為未來處理問題金融業那再來至於說未來稅率的調降我們提出兩個看法一個就是說因為金融業他沒有進向的稅額所以他的"},{"start":6375.217,"end":6401.654,"text":"相較的其他國家比較來講是有可能是偏高再來就是說我們金融業來看的話我們是希望就以國際競爭力來看我們是建議說能夠調降就是從5%回到能夠做的調降我們也把這意見也送給了財政部這是因為財政部從5%回到2%還是回到3%我們沒有對稅率來做一個調降我們只建議說可以從5%調降因為準備金不要了嘛準備金是因為2000多億的夠啦"},{"start":6403.375,"end":6432.054,"text":"還不夠我們其實上應該還不夠對就是說我們會有存保那你不能調降啊你這樣哪裡有條件調降哪有機會調降不可能啊就是5%那是財政部主政那我們只是建議說過去所提存10年提存的2100多億那部分繼續保留在我們的那個存保這邊然後至於未來這個10年到了那財政部他是主政單位我們是建議說若有可以的話調降因為調降為多少不知道我們沒有這是他主政的範圍是"},{"start":6434.395,"end":6459.504,"text":"這個還是要講喔黃主委已經講清楚了他是希望跳降就是他說跳降為2%、3%你都不敢講這個當然我們預期是這樣但是我跟他講這是財政部的那個執掌我們是建議調降對嘛但是你們預計要出來啊是所以我們會最近會再跟這個財政部做我覺得我請你確定你心目中認為最好是2%還是3%"},{"start":6461.925,"end":6474.814,"text":"如果按照這樣結構的話原來那個的話應該是就以稅收考慮應該是2%可以看就是希望調低到2%好我沒有看到原來那個特別準備金的部分就是變成3%"},{"start":6476.468,"end":6494.483,"text":"就是他原來就3%是進國庫嘛那2%進特別準備那個既然不要提的話就可以看那你現在是倒過來3%進準備金2%進國庫這個意思嗎就原來就是3%進國庫嘛那2%的話是特別準備金因為他落日了嘛對所以我們希望把他調降對"},{"start":6495.868,"end":6509.317,"text":"就是 如果現在委員您問我的話我會覺得就那個2%的部分直接降成3%對 大概是這樣2%降為3%你聽到沒有5%降2%變3%5%直接降到2%啦啊 國庫不要給他喔國庫原來就是3%啦但是我還在強調這是財政部的主政範圍啦所以我有3%啦"},{"start":6524.526,"end":6528.688,"text":"中間怎麼分再說就這個意思5%變成3%3%怎麼分再說你有提到簡單的講就是你講到金融科技"},{"start":6538.126,"end":6564.168,"text":"其實金融科技我們原來一直想推一直推可是推得不怎麼樣金融科技最大的問題在哪裡就在於說大家都要以銀行為主啊原來的FinTech是要以網路科技為主讓這些能夠創金融業、金融相關的業結果我們立了法金融薩爾也好什麼也好都是以銀行為主啊所以我就問你"},{"start":6565.731,"end":6591.376,"text":"你是不是有提到要成立Fintech發展處是不是現在主要是外界很多期待希望金管會能夠針對金融科技跟發展能夠有獨立的處但是根據我們中央組織法規的規定我們的局應該是達到上限但是金管會它的整個內部編制裡面它可以有4到6個處是我們自己決定的所以未來比較有可能的規劃是以處的方式來進行"},{"start":6592.136,"end":6619.366,"text":"就等於任務編組對 就是我們內部可以按照我們組織法可以4到6個處我們現在只有4個處那是固定的喔固定的一個處喔 是不是這個意思是的 是的好 那就是不用修法不用不用那人數大概size多大這個處因為我們現在是這樣因為我們現在還是維持原的人數我們現在因為沒辦法在這個時候去爭取到原額那我們接下來會以現有的人力先來做假如做出成效我們會再來爭取另外有個大的問題想請教"},{"start":6621.075,"end":6639.501,"text":"有關你F4要不要合併了這是大家一直討論的問題F4啊一個意見這個因為我時間到了好是那個證交所、櫃買、騎交所、騎保四合一這委員是不是那個容許我請鄭徐局長來跟你回答好20秒就好了要不要"},{"start":6640.59,"end":6641.29,"text":"推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心"},{"start":6668.243,"end":6686.934,"text":"既然是這樣子而且你要打五萬塊很好你這個有這樣的一個衝勁那你一定要面對加密貨幣的問題加密貨幣香港發行比特幣、以太幣的現貨、ETF美國有比特幣的ETF等等的"},{"start":6688.134,"end":6714.902,"text":"我請問你啊就是你會什麼時候可以開放還是從來不想開放換個委託的方式去買海外的加密貨幣的ETF現在有關海外ETF那個虛擬資產海外資產我們有非常深入去了解各國的制度其實是各有各有不同的制度那我們現在的話有在規劃如果是的話也是以法人科為優先實現表呢"},{"start":6716.571,"end":6743.725,"text":"時間表可不可以我們請那個局長我想在年底前我應該內部會討論完畢年底以前可以互委託臺灣這裡互委託買海外行加密貨幣的ETF是這樣子嗎我這樣清楚嗎年底之前會討論出一個明確的政策供外界來參考要報你喔不是說年底之前就開放參考各國的實施狀況"},{"start":6745.575,"end":6774.673,"text":"那因為很多國家有的有開放有的沒開放有的有條件式的開放美國有沒有開放?美國是有有啊香港沒有啊中國大陸中國大陸還沒看到但是我們看到香港其實香港其實他是有條件式的韓國也沒有開放日本也沒有開放所以這個我們還要再蒐集國外的狀況來做一看那最後一個消息的問題就是那個補充保費啊"},{"start":6778.647,"end":6792.914,"text":"說這個股票的這個利息就是那個純股足以前是2%現在要把它調到3%2.1調到3%金融會有態度這個會影響到長期投資我們金融會鼓勵人家長期投資的"},{"start":6794.14,"end":6812.668,"text":"對 這個部分衛福部現在還沒有跟我們討論到這個問題啦所以阿如果咧 因為媒體燈這麼大我們可能會來跟衛福部討論一下我們應該如何因應但現在可能還要等他來跟我們討論這件事 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝下一位質詢請王宏威 王委員"},{"start":6825.675,"end":6826.397,"text":"主席"},{"start":6837.879,"end":6856.261,"text":"謝謝王委員好 主委首先先恭喜你這也是老朋友謝謝那但是我剛才也有聽到賴會員委員在詢問那就是你有沒有拜訪過我們召委還有就是各委員那昨天我有接到你的電話"},{"start":6857.262,"end":6877.512,"text":"因為確實昨天一整天我們所有的委員都被綁在議場上那我覺得你可能太客氣了啦那事實上好像經濟部長在上個禮拜就已經開始陸陸續續在拜訪了我所了解像內政部長也是當然內政部長他自己出身立法院"},{"start":6878.072,"end":6893.69,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分禮數跟周到或者說你可能也太客氣了一些那當然以後就好像還有很多的事情大家可以再做這個交換意見主要呢我還是要特別提到有關我們的當沖的"},{"start":6895.953,"end":6901.734,"text":"這個稅要不要繼續調降的問題因為呢之前是財政部來做備詢那我有特別提到而且我也特別表達我不贊成當沖稅率繼續的調降為什麼呢因為前陣子我們的主計處也公布了最新的貧富差距貧富差距事實上是擴大的非常非常多66.9倍"},{"start":6925.559,"end":6948.81,"text":"我們常常在講其實擴大貧富差距當然整個社會結構是其中之一但是我們的稅制其實也是非常關鍵的因素比如說我們要怎麼樣來調整、改善貧富差距的問題其實政府的工具有限其中一個就是稅"},{"start":6949.71,"end":6960.435,"text":"可是你今天想要比如說徵稅啦或者改變一些稅制真的非常非常的困難好那我們回過頭來其實如果我們的當中稅率繼續調降的話唯一的獲利者我老實講唯一的獲利者是政府"},{"start":6967.418,"end":6986.861,"text":"第一個機管會可以繼續的維持這個整個的交易的榮景我們待會可以看確實我們實施這個當沖稅率調降對半調降之後呢我們的這個交易確實增加了很多但是"},{"start":6988.188,"end":7014.799,"text":"但是這使得就是我們的這個整個稅制裡面躍驅的是去鼓勵資本所得者而懲罰勞動所得者所以我個人覺得這個當沖稅要繼續調降而且你們一提就提五年我覺得蠻誇張的啦我真的覺得蠻誇張當然因為你是昨天才上任我真的覺得這個事情應該好好討論來我們看下一頁"},{"start":7017.346,"end":7031.311,"text":"好財政部對這個事情事實上是有疑慮的感受得到因為他們對他們來講稅制要公平嘛量能科稅好再來看也就是說到底我們調降當沖稅率"},{"start":7033.055,"end":7052.933,"text":"有沒有這個活絡市場市場我們看到已經達成而且很高啊非常的活絡啊我們在2016年的時候平均的日均量不到一千億實施之後呢已經超過一千億一千五百億到今年一到四月份日均量五千億"},{"start":7055.563,"end":7070.403,"text":"這請問一下我們還要再鼓勵什麼我們還要再活絡什麼難道現在不夠活絡了嗎那你就算你要繼續實施你也應該再看一段時間啊我覺得這才合理下頁"},{"start":7071.86,"end":7090.661,"text":"重要的是像我這樣我那天就提出來我大概是非常非常少數做民意代表敢講說我不贊成當中稅率要繼續調降的因為我知道可能會得罪一些廣大的股民還有一些這個在股市裡面的航海王天天在那邊衝來衝去的"},{"start":7092.483,"end":7104.221,"text":"可是我們今天來看你們的活絡市場的目的已經達成了那至於到底大家的獲利的狀況大家也可以看到2021、2022、2023"},{"start":7109.048,"end":7123.797,"text":"2021整個的虧損是435億2022是304億2023這個是預估值事實上我也知道證交所給我最新的資料也是total加起來是291億也將近300億這是去年的資料我們再來看重點是當我們說這個其實"},{"start":7133.499,"end":7156.16,"text":"整個是虧損的時候那麼交易所也給了我一個資料說啊沒有啊其實呢這個大部分是大戶虧損的比較多一般的散戶賺的比較多可是如果我們看overall的話可以看到整個的當沖交易統計這個是證交所給我在上面把它整理出來"},{"start":7157.406,"end":7166.832,"text":"我們獲利的是52.93%虧損47%獲利233.5億虧損524.76億虧損的還是比較多虧損還是比較多一半一半看起來很公平一半賺一半賠那但是我看這個數據跟賭博有什麼不一樣就是我拿個我這邊沒有那個一個錢筆"},{"start":7188.584,"end":7196.448,"text":"對啊骰子還有六面啊然後我這前面不是就一個對不對一個正面一個頭像一個那個非頭像"},{"start":7197.83,"end":7223.523,"text":"那這跟賭博有什麼不一樣所以要繼續調降當沖的稅率唯一只是繼續維繫一個股市的榮景這個榮景也許是上升啦但是當它是下降趨勢的時候它只會更加深它的這個跌勢而已但是至少它的交易量是確實存在所以我就說這變成是政府當莊啦"},{"start":7225.185,"end":7249.561,"text":"唯一最賺的就是政府啊雖然這個好像是手續費啊這個當沖的這個什麼手續費這些通都調降可是因為你殺進殺出殺進殺出所以我們這幾年我們這幾年的超收稅說主要都來自股市所以我想請問新的經管會主委您對於當沖稅率原來提出來要長達5年繼續調降你的看法是什麼"},{"start":7252.882,"end":7281.108,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到就是說若從損益的角度來看當沖的話這個通常假設以戰戰金管會立場他比較不會去從這個角度他會從整個交易的流動性增加還有價格發現還有他市場的效率性來看確實在我們當沖的時候這樣存在的這樣的一個市場的時候確實剛剛那些效果是比以前好的剛剛委員也提到就是說未來就是等於是我們的規模已經達到沒有人覺得這麼好乾脆永久卸條這樣囉"},{"start":7282.748,"end":7298.79,"text":"這倒也不是這倒也不是就是說一件事情一定有他的正反兩面你階段性調降就階段性任務階段性已經達成了你們還不要給他調降他當然是有階段性任務才會說我延長再延長幾年如果這麼好你就全部把他改過來"},{"start":7300.846,"end":7325.288,"text":"這部分的話就是說因為資本市場本來就有很多面向我們從資本市場監理的角度我們剛剛看到是這個面向剛剛委員你提到就是說比如說從投資者的獲利還有鼓勵所謂的投機這樣的角度那當然是有另外一個看法那我們只是說我們要提供意見陳同該委員提到我們過去這個公文已經給了財政部以後確實是財政部據我所知財政部覺得不夠"},{"start":7326.088,"end":7349.061,"text":"還要讓你們提供更多的資料其實在這一點我是比較支持財政部的立場因為一個稅制不應該而且你像我們通常一個階段性你一下就五年欸對所以說我覺得這部分我我們當然接下來有關各種面向我們會提供財政部很多的想法啦因為最後主政單位是他我們會再表達我們的看法對"},{"start":7350.097,"end":7377.275,"text":"另外這個我已經講出我的立場我希望我希望你們能夠審慎的去研究因為這個你是新的主委你可以再做多一點瞭解不一定不一定原來的這個黃龜棚就一定要水而且呢我覺得不管是跟我們覺得就是稅制應該不要去一直在懲罰薪資所得者"},{"start":7378.015,"end":7395.567,"text":"然後一直鼓勵資本所得者還有就是他的這個降稅事實上他的階段性功能已經達成了應該適可而止另外一個就是大家也非常關切這個是在您還沒有就任之前在我們的司法法制委員會有做成決議"},{"start":7397.668,"end":7425.217,"text":"我不知道你知不知道就是有關於這個保險你也是專家就是保險強制執行要訂出一個參考的規則這個我剛才也有其他的委員也有特別提到因為幾乎每一位民代不管是議員也好或者立委也好通通都接到相關的陳情跟服務案那有一些事實上還蠻悲慘的我直接講我真的還有我的這個選民"},{"start":7426.477,"end":7455.823,"text":"哀求他哀求什麼他說能不能幫我保留30萬的最後的傷臟費用講到這樣子其實我真的很想幫忙啊所以我覺得當時這個整個法院做出來的這樣的一個決議其實沒有考慮到整個的保險市場裡面它的面向非常多然後投保的人裡面那有一些"},{"start":7456.443,"end":7479.501,"text":"真的可能是把他的錢藏在保險裡也確實但是有一些真的我們講說有薪資所得或者他的收入並不高但是呢他每一年每一年這樣子慢慢的就幫自己或者幫家人做一個投保可是因為這樣子他就整個保單都解約了所以我講就是說我的選民竟然有告訴我說能不能幫忙"},{"start":7480.282,"end":7496.32,"text":"把他留一點點喪葬費用在那邊不要讓他全部解約很心酸所以我知道在司法法政委員會裡面他有一個決議然後要求你們要去訂定一個就是一個"},{"start":7497.401,"end":7509.919,"text":"原則哪些可以排除或者一定金額那我現在看到媒體有講說是有10萬塊那我希望能夠適當的提高好不好因為10萬塊其實是很少的耶"},{"start":7512.663,"end":7530.728,"text":"那我可不可以請 可不可以 用一點時間趕快我們這個禮拜已經開過會了那保留的部分因為那個是解約金的金額每一件每一張啦但是如果是保險金額的話我們其實訂的比較高我們是訂100萬人壽保險契約"},{"start":7534.049,"end":7561.592,"text":"人壽保險契約即便解約的話保險契約如果在一百萬的金額以下的話就建議他不予強制執行一百萬如果是人壽保險的部分一百萬就不予強制執行讓這些保護辛辛苦苦他至少能夠這種並不算是大額的保單讓他能夠"},{"start":7563.053,"end":7563.233,"text":"下一位質詢請"},{"start":7592.096,"end":7606.191,"text":"郭國文、郭昭緯主席謝謝有請新任的彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":7610.666,"end":7635.562,"text":"謝謝國務委員首先就較於有關新光人壽的這個部分新光人壽因為爭執不足被上任的主委黃天墨黃主委進行行政處分這樣行政處分代保生、代董事長不服尋求行政救濟我想要問您的基本立場你是希望維持原處分還是希望能夠協助他撤令處"},{"start":7639.079,"end":7660.813,"text":"主委你回答啦沒有我只要問他是不是真的有來做訴願現在我們是還沒收到他的訴願書但是就是說我們現在是依法來處罰啦那這部分當然人民當然是有訴願的權利我知道我是問您的立場你是維持原來行政處分還是會協助他撤令處"},{"start":7661.997,"end":7686.245,"text":"如果現在的當然站在金管會立場我們會支持現在的處分一直處分到他增資為止嗎是是這也是保險法的規定就是RBC的部分呢都不能打折扣就是維持黃天牧、黃龜、彭水這個是保險法的規定我問你是不是這件事情是黃龜、彭水啊這個我們已經金管會已經做出裁處是不是一樣"},{"start":7687.325,"end":7688.026,"text":"黃天牧主委過於強調監管而缺乏發展"},{"start":7704.221,"end":7727.936,"text":"或許外界就對你的期待就希望你將來能夠在發展的面向多出一點力所以你今天特別金管會方向當中你就特別強調了安全與發展這兩個面向可是我本席在這邊提醒你監管是否太嚴是否要鬆綁是否是要去管制化"},{"start":7729.097,"end":7756.978,"text":"這是要扣合著發展現在外界聽到您的任命一片叫好充滿期待他們期待什麼他們期待是你鬆綁啊他們期待什麼他們期待你去管制啊他們只期待這個不是期待真正的發展本席想要請問你啊這有關於這安全跟發展之間的界限啊您能拿捏此度到底如何你要如何發展你至少講一些基本原則啊你不要讓外界過度的期待嘛好不好"},{"start":7757.438,"end":7781.57,"text":"所以委員的那個提示是非常對就是其實發展並不是去監理化這兩個是雙軌並進就是說我們對市場剛才講對公司的行為監理、公司治理、資本氏族這些沒有放鬆的理由但是呢我們對未來新市場的發展這個還有就是說我們持續的做法規鬆綁"},{"start":7783.372,"end":7801.068,"text":"對於調適成本的下降就是所謂的依從成本的下降這我們是要該做的那等於說我們要讓他們有更大的空間可以做新商品但是既有的業務還是不能鬆就從保險業部分您的說法是如此但是以金管會現在不賦予啊"},{"start":7801.368,"end":7822.28,"text":"的政策目標跟責任越來越多元越來越加重的情況底下你也不得不有一些要去管制你也不得不有一部分要鬆綁但是這個鬆綁跟去管制的前提你要以發展作為一個正當性為前提來做考量不是嗎是所以你也不能一直強調說我就是以監管為主是"},{"start":7822.52,"end":7851.109,"text":"所以說我是認為你在這個部分的宣示應該寫得更講得更清楚不要讓外界有過度的期待是我來改進可以嗎可以可以好 彭主委這個部分希望你能夠講得更清楚更明白另外一個部分呢有關於本席一直關心的我在4月1號的時候在聯席委員會的時候就要求國會要創造一個平台國會已經創造一個平台也就是如何把海外的受險基金引進我看過您的大作"},{"start":7851.809,"end":7877.347,"text":"你說受險基金要投入公件有兩大因素一是專案時間二是報酬要穩定但是以受險業來說它就是沒有案源那報酬也不穩定的情況底下那我就教於彭主委這個部分要怎麼處理接下來國發會又要開會了接下來又有平台會議了接下來您的主張是什麼有沒有具體的方式把你學者之見形成一個政策之實"},{"start":7878.087,"end":7885.498,"text":"這也是我努力的方向確實保險業在過去我們大家社會期待這個將近35兆的資金能夠留在臺灣當然臺灣的資本市場還有投資標的不夠這是確實的那過去在"},{"start":7894.17,"end":7921.082,"text":"在金管會對保險投資的法規鬆綁已經做了非常大的空間但是沒有暗源這也是最近我跟國發會跟其他各個部會非常密集的在一邊討論這件事情我們一定要趕快創造可以被你先腦袋中有沒有具體的介紹比如說我們現在可以類似發債的方式先用比如說我們具有自償性的用發債的方式再來比如說我們把一些公件發債的那個利率呢"},{"start":7922.063,"end":7941.743,"text":"對,利率的部分我們可以再來現在銀行利率比發債的利率還低啊他取得資金很容易啊對,這個確實是那再來就是有關一些所謂的我們看看有沒有可能把一些公件部分來做證券化好,這部分呢我們透過金管會這邊來協助能不能做一些我們就要討論啊"},{"start":7943.564,"end":7967.552,"text":"對 這個需要案源這個案源需要跨部會來處理這個是非常非常重要你可能要再想清楚一點有具體的操作方式會比較可行我覺得這個部分還有有待於你大力的努力將來我們還有機會做進一步的探討還有另外本席一直倡議的所謂的金融科技局你今天在媒體上回應了所謂的金融創新處"},{"start":7968.772,"end":7973.809,"text":"但是你三個處多一個處剛剛有委員問你你的人員編制有沒有增加"},{"start":7975.319,"end":8001.825,"text":"你人員編制也沒增加啊然後二來呢你出的位階又低於局啊那這種情況底下呢出的這個建議修法的建議局不一定會踩啊那怎麼辦一來人員沒有增加建議權沒有增加你只是多一個扛棒把人員做一些調動多一個人多一個處長的頭銜對整個事情的運作真的有幫助嗎主委這個齁其實很多事情要先跨出第一步因為"},{"start":8002.805,"end":8030.964,"text":"我剛才跟那個委員報告過因為我們現在設局牽動到中央部會的組織我知道人事總署說當中到底還沒有二職機關本席也就有去打聽過了好像空間相對有限但是整個行政院的主改過程當中過往財經部門不曾主改你有沒有印象幾乎這一段時間幾乎不曾主改也就是說你是不是大體來想你是不是思考一個比較長期性的一個政策規劃當中來作為一個思考"},{"start":8033.446,"end":8060.306,"text":"因為最近行政院有提出啊要將體育署成格為體育部啊也就是將來還有整體一個主改的計畫嘛當這個主改計畫來臨的時候你就要適時的推出這個整個財經部門金管會的位階事務要提升從會提升為部那部的部分組織的編制就可以增加編制可以增加人員可以增加你的業務推動才有比較有可能順遂的可能嘛是"},{"start":8061.286,"end":8075.815,"text":"這個確實是我們長遠的規劃的想法所以說你有期待把這個處變成部囉這個倒不敢我現在是至少未來如果有可能成為先有局先有局這個概念是我們可能未來想要規劃先有局"},{"start":8077.136,"end":8103.808,"text":"先有局先有局當然是一個好啊先有處先有局先有部你現在是循序漸進的方式來處理但是這是由下而上的方式也有由上而下的方式啊不是嗎這也是一個思考對那你應該做一個整體的規劃嘛創造你這個主改的正當性嘛是不然你一路的哀求人事總處那邊也不一定會施放多少人力給你啊不是嗎我們大家內行的嘛都比較白嘛對不對"},{"start":8104.548,"end":8124.921,"text":"阿如果是這樣子你不如由上而下速度會比較快一點謝謝可不可以從這邊來進行規劃主委好我覺得這是可以來思考的方向對啊你要趕快進行主導而不是隨便弄一個金融創新數來糊弄本席而且最重要的是你後面具體的做法過往阿"},{"start":8125.501,"end":8138.827,"text":"在整個金融創新處本席之所以會那麼的care的原因是因為譬如講以我們的沙盒實驗我們沙盒實驗都希望業者去"},{"start":8140.647,"end":8168.931,"text":"將就於既有的法令但是呢卻沒有要求業者去創造一個新的業別的可能性因為你將就既有回應跟既有的業者有所競爭嘛我今天很開心你提出你要針對一個沙盒的一個這個創新的這個條例對不對這個是有具體作為的當你有這樣的法的時候你更需要有這樣的人員的編制啊不是嗎那你現在如果通過這個條例之後你的KPI有多少呢"},{"start":8169.611,"end":8180.233,"text":"你希望能夠增加多少?最近沙盒實驗裡頭幾乎都沒有成功的案例啊幾乎啦所以我們現在會來大力推動我們的三頁的事辦"},{"start":8181.038,"end":8204.928,"text":"好那本席期待你的具體的作為我做一個廣泛性的提醒而且這個金融創新數當中還有一個虛擬貨幣的一個問題這虛擬貨幣的部分本席就一再的強調你們不要過度的自我限縮你們不要想要採取深度的監管應該採取廣度的監管也就是說你們現在納入所謂的這一個"},{"start":8205.928,"end":8225.137,"text":"那個法尊的申請當中才進行20家左右明明還有60幾家之多主委我請問你一下你有沒有可能進行廣度的一個監管把這個其他業者申請當中你說快速的納入有沒有可能這個部分我們已經透過那個政局局跟櫃買在做審查啦我們想說這個我們會趕快來朝向開放"},{"start":8225.877,"end":8238.676,"text":"對不對就是因為社會有對納管的這個這樣的期待你既然第一個任務是要打詐的話你這一個問題就不能迴避而且要積極處理第一個本席建議你"},{"start":8239.98,"end":8263.393,"text":"那個深度監理要朝向廣度監理這剩下的這幾家在申請當中要趕快讓他擁有這個法證聲明第二個的部分差異性的管理也要OTC的部分、交易所的部分、個人避傷的部分都要納管啊這樣的情況底下你才有機會啊再透過這一種虛擬貨幣詐騙的部分你再生徹底的防堵徹底的賭詐有沒有可能"},{"start":8266.274,"end":8281.842,"text":"這個才是一個很重要一個關鍵的問題啦好不好這個我希望都看到主委之後有一個具體的回應給本席好不好因為時間上的關係我也不方便啦那將來我們來日方長繼續咨詢好不好好謝謝再跟委員報告抱歉謝謝"},{"start":8287.313,"end":8296.842,"text":"有關剛剛講的資料再後補提供補充資料給相關的委員接下來請李燕秀理委員謝謝專委請彭主委謝謝你請彭主委"},{"start":8313.049,"end":8329.226,"text":"主委好主委辛苦了也恭喜你有機會從彭教授變成彭主委去落實很多你過去在學界也好還有包括你在報紙上我常常看到你對於金管業務你的看法"},{"start":8330.087,"end":8354.593,"text":"我先問一下簡單的一個議題也是一個外界都會關注的就是上午11年的補充保費制度剛才有其他委員提到就是說現在健保署希望提高補充保費率由現在的2.11%提高到3%我想先請問主委你個人對於這件事情的態度你的意見是什麼"},{"start":8355.919,"end":8381.374,"text":"報告委員我現在很難用個人意見表達了那我想說剛剛也有委員也提過這個問題我們這會再跟那個就衛福部來協商這個問題主委我為什麼會這樣提我不是要考你我覺得因為這件事情石崇良署長介茅署長自頭自尾都沒有跟你溝通過他自己根本連試算都還沒有試算過他自己先放一個心目在那裡你們是一個團隊"},{"start":8385.37,"end":8398.863,"text":"這是我要罵他的地方你要告訴他說你要對外宣布你連試算都沒有試算過你就對外宣布3%對於長期投資的存股戶的影響很大欸2.1 臺灣3%對很多人來說是很多的欸"},{"start":8405.959,"end":8423.182,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情我剛才問說你的態度是什麼你的想法是什麼這個對於未來我覺得各單位牽涉到跟你有關的業務最起碼對你是尊重要先問過我先跟我討論過你才能宣布"},{"start":8424.841,"end":8441.043,"text":"這我們可能適時來跟衛福部討論一下這個事情我覺得你要跟石崇良講不是你要怎麼樣就怎麼樣你也要讓我有時間跟我存股戶去做溝通吧你要一個預告期那我也要知道外面的影響是什麼或者我拜託他說你不要一下調到2.11"},{"start":8442.915,"end":8469.333,"text":"你是不是談到2.5就好了所以我剛才才問說你的態度是什麼因為你的態度去決定你後面怎麼去跟他談這是主委我要提醒您的地方這是第一點主委我看到剛剛很多委員問了很多議題那其實都在問你對於整個金管業務的最主要的態度那因為我今天時間不多我就主要我再接續下來問因為我過去也關注到在這段時間我有特別"},{"start":8470.194,"end":8492.953,"text":"爬梳一下你過去在報紙還有包括在學界討論的很多議題跟你的想法那我接下來就是要就保險資本監理到底應不應該跟IFRS財報做脫鉤這件事情跟您做討論那我們都非常清楚IFRS跟RBC這是兩套制度這兩套制度的高度的"},{"start":8495.254,"end":8518.464,"text":"財務的表達方式其實都非常重要這整件事情其實包括加入保險法的加入淨值比之後其實成為RBC比率等量的資本監理基準其實從此財報的影響比資本監理其實更重要財報其實是以短期限的進變性觀點為基礎"},{"start":8521.525,"end":8531.014,"text":"所以到底這整件事情是不是能忠實表達受險超長期經營的週期這個是你過去在報紙所討論過的那當中其實你在文章當中也提到包括2008年金融海嘯的影響當時也是我們的受險業其實"},{"start":8543.665,"end":8560.231,"text":"剛開始獲利非常多但是金融海嘯發生的時候我們9家受險的淨值它是負數後面它馬上又彈回來包括2020年的新冠疫情也是當時2月份的受險的淨值其實是新高然後後來短短一個月之後"},{"start":8561.031,"end":8585.951,"text":"整個淨值又跌了5000多億元但是7月它又爬回來所以那包括2022年我們大家都知道美國暴力的升息其實也是剛開始影響非常大我舉這三個例子的事件其實都要凸顯說我們短期它可能對於財報有短期的變化但是就長期而言其實並不是如此所以我想"},{"start":8587.372,"end":8604.35,"text":"現在您當時的彭教授再回過頭來問你彭主委你到底對於我們資本監理到底應不應該跟IFRS的財報做脫鉤我想請問主委您的意見這個主要的概念是來自於美國的監理我想"},{"start":8605.571,"end":8620.063,"text":"我以前是會計系的我剛剛上課的時候老師有跟我說過其實會計根據你的使用者不同你的編制的目的跟方法就完全不同像我們的稅務會計跟財務會計就完全是不同那剛才講過IFRS它是做財務會計的表達"},{"start":8621.744,"end":8647.923,"text":"他主要使用者是投資人但是我們RBC也好監理、會計他主要是我們要來做長期欣賞能力這兩個確實有點差異那這個部分其實在國內在這一塊呢我們確實在我過去在當彭教授的時候確實對這個東西提出很多的看法那我覺得未來若有可能的話我有可能盡量去釐清這兩個的差異然後再來呢主委我相信你來到這邊"},{"start":8650.304,"end":8669.92,"text":"賴總統也好卓院長也好從業界或從學界找你來其實我覺得他一定有不同的想法希望從過去他們一定從過去你在文章上你在學界你的看法他們才會找你來就是你跟過去的黃主委可能有所不同的地方這個不同不一定是"},{"start":8670.52,"end":8670.76,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8686.408,"end":8705.99,"text":"因為我們都知道說短期的財報其實影響都是多應該是做一個長期穩定受顯現我們會希望看到是一個長期穩定的方向就是說以長就短的結果其實短期讓業者看起來有利但是絕對對於他們業界做長期的規劃的決策"},{"start":8708.012,"end":8733.283,"text":"絕對是不良的影響所以我剛才會問你問題的我一開始就問你問題說其實我們監理到底會不會跟財報做脫鉤還是你會做一些微幅的調整你方向到底是什麼我覺得就是我們過去用那個淨值比作為資本監理那確實在學理上面是有一些可討論的空間我覺得這個東西如果未來我覺得我會可能會去持續調整它的內容"},{"start":8735.41,"end":8745.175,"text":"主委持續的調整我們當作您只有四年的時間好了因為一任四年嘛你會在第幾年做好調整這個隨時動態來做啦對啊"},{"start":8748.267,"end":8774.885,"text":"有時候在外面跟在裡面其實不一樣這個底下的事務官有時候會給你很大的壓力就是說你在外面在看的時候你覺得應該這麼做但是到裡面我擔心說你過去的理想被現實現在的大環境你過去的理想覺得該調整了被下面層層舊的這些法規啦大家給你的建議就動不了了那我覺得就會失去您來的意義不過是對的事情我們就要持續的做啦"},{"start":8775.37,"end":8800.344,"text":"你會堅持的做所以方向上你會做調整也應該朝部份或什麼樣的脫鉤方式我想知道你政策上你走的方向因為當你決定了政策方向在這邊宣布了之後下面的人就會跟著你動你現在說我想想看我思考看看底下就會跟你講主委最好不要這個齁所有的監理指標都是要按照我們真實的狀況來調整我想當然包括鏡子筆"},{"start":8802.745,"end":8811.529,"text":"最後一個問題因為時間也快到了目前保險業的資本適足性的管理辦法當中有一個淨值比不得低於3%的規範你會不會調整?"},{"start":8815.765,"end":8835.226,"text":"因為這個是定在保險法裡面它的剛性蠻強但是所以這部分的話我們會或者我應該是這麼說我知道你說剛性很強但是您來您從學界來賴總統找你來我不知道當時你有沒有在他的智囊團裡面或者是卓院長看到你來應該是對你過去的"},{"start":8837.368,"end":8865.383,"text":"想法大家是支持的所以到底你剛剛提到剛性很強但是找你來就是要來做調整跟改變我想你也是要來去做調整跟改變所以我才問你說剛性很強是一回事但你的決心很重要或者甚至你會不會用其他規範來進行監理你有沒有想法這個部分其實我覺得這裡面應該是想還是我剛才那句話只要是正確的對市場有利對消費者有利我們都要做啦"},{"start":8865.717,"end":8892.179,"text":"你目前心中有沒有負案?會不會有其他的政策來去處理?就是說他現在規範的淨值比不得低於3%事實上在產業界他們是有不同的經驗我相信在這段時間你走訪了那麼多跟工會做互動你大概都很清楚知道問題在哪裡所以你自己心裡有沒有負案?有想法嗎?或者你現在覺得還不成熟不敢在檯面上講你有想法嗎?"},{"start":8893.119,"end":8908.445,"text":"當然有想法但我覺得容我把整個方案講得就是能夠比較可行的時候再跟大家報告好 所以你有想法有其他想法或其他的政策方向可以去做進行規範跟建立你是有覆案的有有好主委我期待"},{"start":8913.735,"end":8928.815,"text":"您可以發揮您的專長可以去做一些改變其實我今天還有很多其他政策性的問題要問但今天真的時間太少了謝謝委員的指正謝謝主委也祝福也希望您的想法跟理想能在接下來這四年我們可以看到好好落實謝謝您"},{"start":8935.236,"end":8946.143,"text":"那現場有兩位委員等兩位委員發言完畢我們就休息十分鐘接下來請下一位質詢黃珊珊黃委員好謝謝主席我請彭主委請彭主委主委好"},{"start":8964.148,"end":8986.59,"text":"歡迎您到金管會來我想接下去怎麼樣金管會跟我們財政委員會有非常非常多的互動首先我想就前一陣子我們在上任2月1號上任之後跟黃天牧主委一直在討論的是也是本委員會大家非常關心的就是融資租賃業融資租賃業現在已經成為臺灣的三大影子銀行"},{"start":8987.35,"end":9003.967,"text":"這三大影子銀行數千億的融資然後造成了造就了我們臺灣非常多年輕人成為所謂的山盜猴子主委也都理解嘛山盜猴子讓很多年輕人背負了數百萬的債然後一輛"},{"start":9005.433,"end":9029.62,"text":"三五萬的摩托車可以借到幾十萬甚至現在已經嚴重到拍一張冰箱的照片就可以借個二十萬完全不需要徵信更不需要說明它的利率融資公司法我們本黨團民眾黨團已經擬好相關的草案融資公司專法在民國97年金管會也曾經提出相關的願版"},{"start":9031.314,"end":9036.893,"text":"主委你剛上任我想請教你對融資公司設立專法你的立場是什麼"},{"start":9037.844,"end":9065.026,"text":"我想這個剛剛有很多的委員也關注到我想我在上任之前我們的同仁也都跟我提到這些的內容那我想現在現階段金管會的做法大概就以現況來進行管理那比如說我們現在是希望先針對大型的資本公司透過一些比如說我們的上市櫃公司所以主委我想問您對專法的方式您有沒有什麼意見目前還沒有想法對"},{"start":9066.067,"end":9095.162,"text":"我剛才提到就是目前我們在還在收集各國對於融資公司是否由金融監督是由金融監理機關來管理這一塊我們在做當然我剛才也跟其他委員報告我們也不排除做這樣一個研究沒錯其實我們在質詢的時候也提出來像美國就是用金融監管單位甚至連中國大陸都是而且我們的公股銀行在中國大陸也有設置相關的同樣的公司也受當地法律的監管"},{"start":9095.962,"end":9120.95,"text":"也就是說融資公司我們要的不多第一利率要明確第二不可以有暴力討債的狀況第三你要借他他能力負擔得起的債務而已只有這麼簡單的要求但是97年到現在目前講將近16年當年是因為有非常嚴重的卡債問題那時候做的是叫做銀行現在幾乎叫做什麼公司都可以融資"},{"start":9122.27,"end":9146.323,"text":"完全用賣東西的方法假買賣徵融資所以融資專法我們會開公聽會我們也希望主委能夠聽聽財委會各個委員的意見然後各界的意見就這個法案我相信不管你金管會要不要提版本財政委員會立法院這邊一定會有版本而且一定會審查你麻煩主委做好準備是"},{"start":9147.452,"end":9165.124,"text":"好第二個問題是我們現在有非常多的詐騙案件詐騙案件金管會是最前端的那詐騙案件偵查上面我常常說重點是民眾不在乎有沒有抓到這個詐欺犯民眾在乎的是他的錢追不追得回來"},{"start":9165.925,"end":9184.483,"text":"我們現在都抓得到詐欺犯但是都找不回錢現在問題就在於說資訊的交換速度夠不夠快所以資訊交換不夠快錢就轉出去了抓到那個人頭戶就算警示了也沒有用所以我們現在要比賽的就是誰比較快是"},{"start":9185.063,"end":9204.244,"text":"所以主委在這個打詐的效能上面現在提了打詐專法但是有很多的部分其實是在金管會前端就要做好處理的目前的虛弊市場虛弊業者我們現在都讓他們自律沒有納入管理接下去他們現在碰到的問題是一樣的"},{"start":9205.906,"end":9229.752,"text":"他們跟調查局、刑事局各自都有聯絡但是沒有任何一個平台跟銀行聯絡他們跟警察165也要靠傳真才能聯絡接下來去可能跟法務部高檢署有聯絡但是也是個別的聯絡我要做的是主委可能需要的你協助的是怎麼樣把這些前端跟後端尤其是在法務部最後追蹤的部分"},{"start":9230.712,"end":9239.972,"text":"大家一起做一個打炸平台而這個平台需要金管會做前端最重要的連結跟串聯包括現在沒有納管的虛幣市場"},{"start":9241.297,"end":9263.313,"text":"您可以了解一下這件事情嗎這點沒問題我們這個從我還沒開始上任就非常被密切的關注這一點而且金管會也被賦予說蠻多重要的任務現在很多虛弊業者他當然是在國外他想在臺灣申請那目前為止25家合法有申請有洗錢聲明的但很多很多都是沒有的可是他們"},{"start":9264.093,"end":9289.019,"text":"怎麼樣納入我們的管理納入我們的平台進入我們的平台可以協助政府一起來打造我相信這是金管會接下去很重要的任務不是放任他在外面他想幫忙幫不上有警示賬戶利用這些虛幣相關的平台來做洗錢甚至來做詐騙會越來越多這個擴大納管我們也在努力中好"},{"start":9290.536,"end":9318.292,"text":"這個打炸平台我想主委我希望它變成不是只有單一讓民眾或業者大家自己來前端的金管會跟後端的法務部大家必須要合作而且要連結最後一個我想簡單的問一下我們現在金管會有一個很可愛的題目5月15號發了一個公文他說因為現在有太多的網紅在做銷售或從事廣告的營業行為包括"},{"start":9319.232,"end":9334.513,"text":"賣ETF啊鼓勵大家去投資這個投資那個所以我們投信投顧業工會呢我們要對網紅進行管理是吧是的他們就是現在由工會訂了一個行為規範我想問一下什麼叫做網紅"},{"start":9339.397,"end":9361.504,"text":"來網紅主委不知道對你知道他的定義是什麼常態性於網路上發表資訊內容供大眾閱覽並以此盈利者就叫網紅就是要賺錢的人那有很多很多人很多新聞媒體很多相關的報導其實都在報導這個股票最近多好多好這樣算不算網紅不算"},{"start":9365.726,"end":9389.517,"text":"這個抱歉我還要再研究一下局長要不要回答有沒有我們請我們局長我的意思是說你這個東西的定義網紅怎麼管管誰管怎麼管這個剛講如果是涉及到投資有價證件這個是在我們在規範的都要規範對所以我們會要求業者你要跟網紅簽約那如果他沒有盈利呢他就一直在說這個很不錯這樣子而已呢"},{"start":9390.177,"end":9404.813,"text":"算不算網紅這個人不錯其實就有點鼓勵的概念了我最近買那個ETF很不錯然後怎麼樣怎麼樣那這種人算不算我的意思是如果要規範就清楚的規範但是如果你現在這樣的定義有點怪怪的啦"},{"start":9405.809,"end":9430.251,"text":"我的意思是說要管因為太多人在做而且每一個都說他是投資專家我們投信投顧是要有證照的是要申請廣告字號的跟委員報告所以先前我們請投信工會他要致力研究一個規範方式致力方式報到局裡面來我們在上個禮拜合配他們的對我們希望導正國內的投資市場但是一樣還是要管得到"},{"start":9431.912,"end":9436.456,"text":"最後一個就是剛剛很多委員在問的是有關當沖降稅的延長我剛剛聽到主委是說繼續延五年是嗎?"},{"start":9457.273,"end":9468.19,"text":"過去我們已經發函給財政部表達這樣的看法表達這樣的看法那財政部的回函同意了嗎沒有沒有同意還沒那接下去會是什麼樣的結果"},{"start":9469.622,"end":9491.95,"text":"接下來我們還會再跟財政部再做一些討論所以行政院還會做政策性的決定這要行政院來決定我對於當沖降稅沒有個人的意見但是我們看到以前的主委您在政大的同事王立寧教授他主張如果長期投資的要不要給他一些優惠"},{"start":9493.53,"end":9500.082,"text":"我們現在當充當天不用證交稅減半但是我們對長期投資反而沒有鼓勵這不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":9502.028,"end":9523.494,"text":"主委理解我的意思嗎?如果我持有了這個股票三年、五年是不是反而可以給它一些優惠?這個可能是金管會可以去思考的也就是說我鼓勵當沖減半好像我們鼓勵投機我們對於長期持有的反而沒有任何的優惠這個可能是接下去金管會在你決定當沖不當沖減半的部分"},{"start":9525.655,"end":9543.808,"text":"或者是常態化減半很多人主張常態化減半鼓勵臺灣的投資市場但也有人說這是鼓勵投機相對的是我想問對長期投資反而我們是不是應該有一些態度我想這個可不可以請我們局長把現有的狀況跟您說明一下下"},{"start":9544.068,"end":9573.228,"text":"市局長跟委員報告現在業者其實有提出提撒的概念那我們也在研究中也跟財政部這邊看他們的態度怎麼樣就是說你是長期投資你在租稅上要給他優惠鼓勵是的所以也就是說不是只有當沖降稅而是長期投資給他租稅優惠也是政府的一種態度那最重要的是我們希望他長期持有對於國內的金融體系反而比較穩定那最重要的是我希望新的主委有新的氣象"},{"start":9574.769,"end":9594.544,"text":"過去可能有一些比較我認為比較保守的地方我希望新主委到任之後我們可以從業界的角度從比較不是那麼官方的角度來重新看我們將來的金融管理的制度那最重要的是希望主委能夠順利的推展業務我們希望為臺灣做點事謝謝王偉謝謝"},{"start":9601.363,"end":9613.56,"text":"現在請吳立華吳委員謝謝主席 有請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":9618.127,"end":9639.179,"text":"主委您好我這個會期初次來到財委會那最重要的原因我給自己一個很簡單的目標就是我希望這個會期我能夠讓我們的原住民族人他的原保地可以拿到銀行做生貸就這麼簡單的一個理由"},{"start":9642.12,"end":9660.37,"text":"事實上剛才很多人都會談到融資公司其實這個融資公司呢在我們原鄉對族人所造成的影響其實是更嚴重的因為它是很有吸引力的我們透過一夜市網站也好任何的廣道"},{"start":9662.117,"end":9677.456,"text":"連一個手機他都能借錢連一個壞掉的摩托車他都可以借錢這個對急的人來講他是非常有誘因的但是呢他也變成了債務的冤首所以像這個融資公司"},{"start":9678.297,"end":9694.159,"text":"其實在我們原鄉很多人叫做開當鋪我們也很多原住民青年他都當下線開當鋪他是萬物皆可待所以呢他可怕的其實不僅僅是在於高利率的問題他還可以自訂手續費"},{"start":9695.541,"end":9712.633,"text":"所以造成一個很多人越來越多人加入的一個好生意那我在這邊會關心這個就是我們講一般人是有土私有財但是我們原住民就被人家笑是窮的只剩下土地"},{"start":9713.473,"end":9735.318,"text":"那因為正常的貸款管道我們不得其門而入所以呢就只有被逼到地下化所以在這個兩個月其實我在財委會這邊我也問過金管會跟財政部、內政部、農業部、原民會來到這裡我都會來關心關於原保地生態的問題那我也開過"},{"start":9736.858,"end":9753.61,"text":"原保地建價機制銀行放貸方案的一個研商會議那其實我的訴求很簡單主委就是我希望各部會分工像是金管會財政部我就希望來提供一個公股銀行的評鑑誘因"},{"start":9755.171,"end":9755.331,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9785.371,"end":9807.792,"text":"在這個5月有回函給我他們說會協助來請這個估價施工會研擬準則那農業金庫也回函了積極配合辦理原住民貸款業務原民會也回函了說他們已經研擬了原保地的一個信保作業要點草案"},{"start":9808.973,"end":9823.098,"text":"財政部也回函了說會協請公股銀行來配合內政部辦理估價那你們金管會也回函了上次黃天牧主委也說了就是他已經發函"},{"start":9824.478,"end":9851.977,"text":"督促各個銀行落實公平貸客原則落實普惠金融政策那也在推動修正金融評鑑的規定如果願意承作原保地的貸款業務會給予加分並且加強宣導那另外建議內政部要做實價登錄增加原保地交易資訊建議原民會要去做原保地的信用保證提高銀行的意願"},{"start":9852.657,"end":9866.854,"text":"那我也要跟主委說明你們建議內政部石家東路部分他們也回函已經做了原民會的信保剛才有提了也已經在研擬草案了那現在我就是要請教主委好"},{"start":9868.275,"end":9890.419,"text":"各部會都已經釋出了正面的回應那金管會這邊除了ESG的評鑑加分的制度不曉得主委你有沒有其他可以積極促成的解方請教主委是委員這個可不可以容許我請銀行局局長跟您回答一下好謝謝主張局長"},{"start":9892.725,"end":9908.625,"text":"報告委員剛剛就已經特別有提到就說ESG的評分因為今年的評分的指標其實是已經進來了所以我們已經仔細的去檢視裡面的評分的指標是可以放進去的"},{"start":9909.065,"end":9930.212,"text":"那更長期的指標的話我們也會督促就是評鑑的小組把這個更長期的指標列進去所以讓就是元寶地這樣子的放款可以放進去增加這個多元化的這個指標那至於是不是還有沒有其他督、積極促成的解方"},{"start":9930.692,"end":9941.127,"text":"是不是可以讓我們來思考一下因為目前我們有多項的政策性的放款比如說中小企業放款或者是六大核心企業的放款那這個部分的話我們也來演繹看看有沒有可能把它放進去"},{"start":9946.775,"end":9964.868,"text":"那還有再來就是說各金融機構它在偵測分支機構的時候我們會看它政策的配合度給它一些加分的項目我們也可以來思考是不是針對原住民的這個放款是不是也可以放到這個加分的項目裡面好 董事長報告"},{"start":9965.728,"end":9983.838,"text":"謝謝局長也謝謝諸位我這樣聽起來確實是很有善很積極但是我這邊還有一個小小的請求就是我們真的走進銀行的時候其實還有一個小障礙那就是我們所謂的5P原則"},{"start":9985.479,"end":10004.726,"text":"那這個5P原則其實我第一次質詢金管會的時候我有提到其實在國外都有一些消除歧視消除刻板印象的政策你應該很清楚因為我這個5P我簡單講其實是很容易落入刻板印象"},{"start":10006.124,"end":10029.381,"text":"我光是講借款人是原住民是不是那個分數就很低了對不對然後你提到資金用途做什麼啊你的還款來源啊這個分數都很低的債權的保障啊還有甚至受信的展望像假設他說我為了要去做現在小型露營廠已經合法化"},{"start":10030.282,"end":10050.852,"text":"可是他想要去做的時候他會面臨我要弄一些污水處理啊我會被要求要去做水保設施啊他沒有資金啊他想要去貸款啊好那這時候獸性的展望可能他就不理解我們銀行端可能就不理解他那個獸性展望到底是什麼"},{"start":10051.892,"end":10071.342,"text":"所以我想這個部分我其實是要談的是說現在金管會各部會我們的好事就做盡就是治標也治本那主委您也是新上任勇於任事我是在想齁這個援助民族的財務體質啊我覺得要改善"},{"start":10072.611,"end":10094.748,"text":"那這是社會結構的問題不能夠單純的去歸咎個人的問題我希望政府一同的來承擔那我也希望我們原住民族有一天可以不再仰賴政策不再仰賴政策所以在這邊我要跟主委講一下其實我在109年的7月也就是疫情最嚴峻的時候"},{"start":10095.729,"end":10118.004,"text":"我有召開一個協調會為什麼因為當時我們的紓困貸款原住民看得到吃不到他沒有那個信用所以呢我那個時候有請原民會還有聯府基金會幫忙做一個清償債務的這個部分原民會很好當時金管會其實也有幫忙"},{"start":10119.165,"end":10136.42,"text":"有提供那些金融輔導員獎勵金就是你每幫忙一個個案他就給他獎勵金那我現在就是拜託我們的主委是不是可以支持就是比照像法輔基金會他們有一個定期定點下箱的服務配合活動他們就有一個帳篷"},{"start":10137.961,"end":10160.91,"text":"我是希望說跟原民會的金服員合作也能夠有公股銀行來合作去做一個原住民族債務整合及清償的專案我想這個部分對我們原住民很重要另外就是現在我們政府尤其是賴清德總統他在台南市政府的時候他就在推族群主流化的政策"},{"start":10161.84,"end":10176.8,"text":"那我想我們的原住民族教育也在前幾年已經修法把對象改為全體國民所以我們說這是全民原教我們原住民族作為臺灣的一份子作為臺灣這個土地的長子"},{"start":10179.443,"end":10208.597,"text":"我是希望說這個部分我們的金管會也能夠來策進我們的這些銀行他們能夠做一個在職的訓練提升我們的公股銀行的從業人員對於原住民族的一個認識跟各種原住民政策相關的認識我相信會對我們整個友善金融普惠金融會有很大的幫助那請主委來表示一下您的看法"},{"start":10209.978,"end":10217.285,"text":"您提到這兩個我們完全支持只是說前面那個可不可以請由原民會來發動開會我們來參與謝謝主委加油謝謝主席謝謝主席休息10分鐘"},{"start":10919.597,"end":10931.866,"text":"繼續開會下位質詢請李坤澄理委員謝謝召集人我們請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":10951.895,"end":10980.866,"text":"彭主委好你好今天第一次被詢早上這樣子問下來還習慣嗎?正在適應中有什麼心得嗎?很尷尬很尷尬欸?不過我看早上還好啊大家都對你蠻客氣的啊哪邊你覺得比較尷尬?我覺得戒慎不恐懼啦戒慎我們立法委員都是和哀可親的啦"},{"start":10983.021,"end":11010.169,"text":"那個跟你第一次碰面應該是在520的國宴那在此之前就是只有在這個報紙上面有看到這一個人事的發布那其實有機會的話應該多跟所有的財政委員會的委員要多交流一下才知道說這個未來金管會的走向畢竟過去黃天牧主委當了4年多的這個主委那大家也都有所肯定"},{"start":11011.369,"end":11032.579,"text":"他也都跟所有的委員平時會保持交流跟互動我想這部分的話也請彭主委這部分能夠多加強這一定 謝謝那這個520賴總統在宣誓就職之後他也說過這個打仗是他這個重要的目標"},{"start":11033.769,"end":11048.746,"text":"那我們新任的這個行政院長卓榮泰卓院長那他在就任革魁的時候他也說這個打詐是他這個任內首要的目標這個未來內閣他手中這個武打棄安那面對這個"},{"start":11050.849,"end":11077.41,"text":"這個詐騙的話呢除了我們現在通過這個打詐釋法之外呢他想要讓這一個想騙的不敢騙已經騙的會被抓騙到手的沒得花那當然這一個就這個行政部門來講的話這個我們金管會也是屬於這個五大主責機關的其中之一嘛那我先請教一下我們彭主委那未來對於這一個打詐這方面在金管會這方面你有沒有什麼樣的這個看法跟主張"},{"start":11078.473,"end":11102.108,"text":"打砸現在最首要就是說我們把我們現在已經在做的就把它落實跟強化接下來第二個就是有關那個打砸專法的部分我們要趕快把執法建立起再通過第一時間去強化這些幾個重要的措施像剛剛委員應該提到了橫向的聯繫以及對於打砸專法裡面跟金管會有相關的有哪些"},{"start":11103.1,"end":11119.656,"text":"裡面呢主要幾個條文呢主要針對比如說我們建立一個跟經景的聯防機制還有金融機構之間的合作還有解除那個金融機構在互通資訊保密的義務還有一些對一些被詐騙的金額做一些賬戶上的處理我想這些都是非常非常關鍵的"},{"start":11120.777,"end":11143.907,"text":"那你剛才沒有提到有關這個法則的部分那法則的部分在打詐專法的裡面或是這個洗錢防治法的修正草案裡面都有關於法則那當然在這個打詐專法裡面的法則呢我們對於這個提供虛擬資產服務是事業或人員還是有行政法"},{"start":11144.793,"end":11166.831,"text":"然後在洗錢防治法的修正草案裡面呢對於這個虛擬資產服務的事業或人員的刑罰呢是兩年以下有期徒刑那主委認為這個不論是打詐專法或是說這個洗錢防治法對於虛擬資產的這個行政法跟刑罰您覺得看法是怎麼樣適當嗎還是過輕還是可以再加強的那我想這個草案剛通過我覺得這樣的話應該是可以先來試行"},{"start":11172.853,"end":11179.987,"text":"所以你認為是足夠的我是這樣想你是這樣想那對於這一個過去我們也曾要求"},{"start":11182.403,"end":11205.39,"text":"這個黃主委就這個虛擬資產專法來這個提出來那他也說這個可能也做過研究了啊但是呢法案的內容然後還有時程呢由下一任主委就是彭主委來決定那請問一下彭主委對這個虛擬資產這個專法的這個心中的想法是怎麼樣那大概何時會提出來"},{"start":11206.075,"end":11234.86,"text":"我們對於那個虛擬資產的管理現在按照我們既定的這個策略在進行那我們對於這個那個專法的部分呢我們已經請那個專家在做研究9月呢他的報告就會送過來那我們大概預計最快可能是明年明年送到立法院嗎這個中間有一定的程序至少我們在明年的時間我們在金管會之間是9月提出來9月提出來是你們9月份這個金管會"},{"start":11236.83,"end":11259.284,"text":"會送到行政院嗎?9月是這樣因為我們上次在黃州的時候也有跟大家報告就是說我們現在因為這個虛擬市場專法設計的層面蠻複雜我們再請專家學者再研究這個報告已經快完成9月按照我們的9月完成報告那我們就趕快來加快來研議這個過程那我說最快也是明年事情才會有金管會這邊會有結果會送出來"},{"start":11260.114,"end":11275.339,"text":"所以明年才會送行政院明年才會送立法院這樣應該是這樣我怎麼記得之前黃主委不是這樣講的啊我怎麼記得之前黃主委說這個下個會期9月份就會送到立法院來"},{"start":11276.664,"end":11305.045,"text":"應該是說按照我們現在的那個市局長對那我們請我們張局長應該是我們的概念是說找協議來研究出稿我們會在9月份看得到那後面要落實的話那條文我們還要細部去討論所以剛才主委才說我們大概明年就可以來看到所以今年不會有關虛擬資產專法不會送行政院也沒辦法送到立法院就對了是的是明年才會送對明年才會送是"},{"start":11306.448,"end":11331.543,"text":"好 那這個至少要把這個時程再把它確定一下因為我們上次在問這個黃主委的時候黃主委都還蠻保守的他就一副覺得說這個接下來就是接下來主委的事情他也大概沒辦法決定太多那我再問一下我剛剛這個這個之前也蠻多委員在問的有關於這一個受險的事情受險的這一個資本市儲率的問題"},{"start":11332.977,"end":11355.511,"text":"這個有關於現在有關三商美邦跟星光人鬥的這個資本市值率在3月底的時候齁這個這兩家公司都會達到法定標準的200%嘛對不對那你們也做了這個這個處罰那請問一下到6月的時候這兩家公司有辦法達到這一個法定的這個資本市值率嗎保安局局長跟您做詳細的說法好 謝謝市局長"},{"start":11362.028,"end":11372,"text":"報告委員因為我們已經請公司再提他的財業改善計畫等他來了以後我們來評估他到底後續提出來的沒有因為現在五月底了"},{"start":11373.823,"end":11402.905,"text":"那個新光應該...因為3月份的時候已經不夠了嘛就沒有達到標準了那理論上就會貼出來了啊快...快...應該時間快到了我們有給他一點時間啦還沒有貼出來喔還沒...5月24...他現在還沒有貼出來喔都被你們罰了都還沒有貼出來喔我們那個財報確認時間是在3月底嘛那我們4月發文給他們那所以大概5月底左右他們會...會送過來那你們有沒有做什麼樣的指示要求"},{"start":11404.006,"end":11424.673,"text":"希望他們能夠達到哪一些的標準能夠達到這個基本性主義我們希望他提出一個可行的方案能夠改善他的這個RBC的規定儘速回到法定標準你這樣講很空泛啊我說我們有一些標準啊或是說哪一些他們沒有達到然後你們做一個要求他可以達到"},{"start":11426.101,"end":11454.733,"text":"如果他們要提供什麼樣的一個選擇他們會請他們提比如說像增資增資也是一個選項還有就是他們有可能也會去發債或者他們會提一些財業務裡面的一些改善的措施讓他的RBC能夠做調整所以在他的財務結構調整上他們也會現金增資合理嗎現金增資是其中一個重要的選項或者是還有其他的發債"},{"start":11456.013,"end":11483.782,"text":"那這兩家公司呢?這兩家公司在你們的要求之下有提出什麼樣的改善的方向嗎?等5月24號以後他們提來的我們會去評估他提出來的那個是不是可行啦進度上是不是可行三個月的時間有辦法達標嗎?這要看他提出的項目是什麼如果現金增資的話照這樣看的話應該"},{"start":11485.88,"end":11502.977,"text":"應該有一些已經他們在做了有一些是會落到下半年現金增資你是指星光?星光跟商商都有過現金增資兩家都有然後會有這個子公司上繳盈餘這部分嗎?"},{"start":11504.604,"end":11519.029,"text":"新光的子公司上繳營餘在上半年已經完成了那還是不夠嗎?還不夠,所以他還要再提所以現在新光是要雙管齊下嗎?現行增資然後再繼續上繳營餘嗎?"},{"start":11521.845,"end":11542.543,"text":"目前他們上繳盈餘的部分6月以前就已經完成了然後他現在在做的還有發債那發債的部分現在預估在6月底也會有大概55億的發債的金額另外他下半年還有現金增資的規劃那這樣有辦法達到你們的要求嗎"},{"start":11546.128,"end":11572.986,"text":"這個部分可能還要看最近它的那個整個RBC的狀況我們要進行評估啦那個試算那到4月呢?4月有最新的有資本市足率的這一個數字出來嗎?那個去年年底的數字4月是出來的我們才會發公文給他們請他再提不是去年年底啦去年年底當然我們現在就知道啦我說有最新的有這個資本市足率的數字出來嗎?"},{"start":11574.168,"end":11581.999,"text":"沒有 再來就要看六月的數字啦所以六月現在還沒到那 大家知道彭主委跟壽險業還蠻熟的那你跟這個新光人壽董事長魏寶生熟不熟"},{"start":11588.69,"end":11608.135,"text":"他以前是我在保險室的司長是我的副司長所以這個我是希望公歸公司歸司當然對那也希望說對於這個一般民眾來講當然希望說他達到這一個資本市主律對大家才有保障"},{"start":11608.775,"end":11625.872,"text":"但是我這樣問局長又答得很含糊其實我也不太確定說他目前所提出來這個方案或是你們對他的要求能不能到6月的時候達到這個資本市主率因為我們上次給他的公函是給他一個月內要回覆一個月的期限是5月應該5月24號"},{"start":11627.915,"end":11628.616,"text":"王世堅、王委員"},{"start":11661.731,"end":11673.459,"text":"謝謝主席我請金管委員、鄭主委請彭主委抱歉抱歉他是說正職的啦正職的主委抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉彭主委彭主委王委員好"},{"start":11682.719,"end":11706.558,"text":"沒想到我們第一次碰面我就把你的姓氏稱呼錯誤喔那其實諸位我對你是蠻有信心的也蠻了解的啦就是說我去看了過去你的一些著作還有你的主張那我覺得你這些主張齁比方說你講到"},{"start":11707.796,"end":11729.428,"text":"你說受險業啊他們的狀況你用一個很好的形容你說他們啊就如廬山煙雨啦那麼他們的複雜跟他們的多變就像廬山煙雨而且你當時還批評過"},{"start":11731.041,"end":11749.991,"text":"金管會說他們圖利了受險業這些財團因為他們發放了高股利反而降低了受險業的淨值我覺得你那樣講是蠻正確的喔不能說為了圖利受險業的老闆們然後去綁架了保護的權益那當時你這麼說"},{"start":11757.591,"end":11785.888,"text":"那麼當然啦你現在上來的這個位置可能你會做一些修正你會比較實際的去了解不過不管如何修正我認為站在金管會的立場本來就要嚴守這個看管的立場那麼我就提到說比較三老金的我今天跟你談兩件一個"},{"start":11787.099,"end":11805.914,"text":"就是租賃這些融資公司那當然這個我先前問你們而且我也要求金管委就是說是不是針對融資公司我們要有融資公司管理法結果上禮拜"},{"start":11807.54,"end":11820.926,"text":"你上任前金管會已經有答覆我他就說欸現行啊對融資公司已經有管理機制所以他們拒絕訂租賃專法就對啦那 諸位我認為喔這一個答覆四個字胡說八道哪來的哪來的管理機制沒有啊"},{"start":11838.066,"end":11860.932,"text":"金管委這一個答覆等於睜眼說瞎話金管委明知道現在對融資公司的管理是推給經濟部欸 主委你知道嗎經濟部是依公司法管這一些融資公司公司法管理全國140萬家公司我就講租賃最大的這三家好了"},{"start":11867.728,"end":11872.631,"text":"中租、抵合、合潤、育融三家都上市啦三家經濟的總規模佔了所有融資公司超過95%我姑且稱這三家叫鼠條三兄弟啦齁"},{"start":11886.638,"end":11903.109,"text":"屬條三兄弟的二列我相信你應該是有所聞那麼我們來管理他是對的啊結果你現在轄下的金管會他做這樣的答覆然後在你今天的報告你說這個報告你說啊這個現在要來針對這些融資公司"},{"start":11910.373,"end":11917.218,"text":"鼠條三兄弟BMPL你只寫掉BMPL要來加強管理但是彭主委BMPL不是重點為什麼BMPL在鼠條三兄弟年營額裡面6800億裡面佔連5%都不到4.6%而已"},{"start":11935.58,"end":11946.706,"text":"最主要的是他另外那95%占他的總營業金額281億4.6%這個不是重點另外那95%才是重點而另外那些95%就我講的啊都推給經濟部啦現在我就舉這個我們民眾"},{"start":11965.007,"end":11987.063,"text":"權益受損被數條三兄弟剝削那麼這樣子的糾紛誰來協商呢竟然是經濟部那經濟部他的協商他也是推得蠻乾淨的他表面上來協商但是他說我"},{"start":11991.489,"end":11995.07,"text":"經濟部的協商是對自然人那對於法人啊他們他們是不協商的所以這很荒唐如果你去查一下這個薯條三兄弟他們的放款的我剛講的額度裡面"},{"start":12018.598,"end":12025.545,"text":"法人融資佔金額佔最大 佔超過一半 3560億個人的2800億然後經濟部一推 欸 超過一半的貪汪他不管其他他管的也是管得一塌糊塗"},{"start":12039.363,"end":12054.819,"text":"我是說債務協商的部分喔所以此時此刻本來融資放款這樣的金融公司本來就該我們金管會來管不是嗎你下面有銀行局你下面有檢察局你有這麼多的重要的這些專業"},{"start":12063.516,"end":12085.058,"text":"金融人才可以來管理然後我再講一下說結果這兩三個月來我一直問銀行局說你們到底啊我們九大公民銀行戶跟這些民營銀行總計我們銀行業到底放款的多少金額給鼠條山兄弟"},{"start":12086.55,"end":12105.042,"text":"你們來個拒絕答覆你們說啊這個根據銀行法第46條這個你們不能答覆結果彭主委我在問你們的同時我另外私下個別公股行庫去問我連民營行戶都去問我現在查出了總經理光公股行庫啊"},{"start":12112.779,"end":12130.585,"text":"放款給屬寮山兄弟總金額4854億而且你們還另外額度總額是8921億欸他沒有錢拿滿啦他拿了大概5成路然後他的借款利息多少1.7481.74的利率"},{"start":12141.994,"end":12166.533,"text":"那個主委你認為這有道理嗎我們銀行業貸款給有房子擔保的喔新青安貸款1.77這已經算低了然後軍公教信用貸款也是房屋有抵押的喔2.53貸款給鼠條山兄弟的逼"},{"start":12173.74,"end":12180.943,"text":"這兩大政府重要政策要優惠的方向還要踢還要你借給他1.7%結果他轉手借給需要的民眾他借18%這對嗎如果我們銀行體系尤其公營行庫"},{"start":12196.977,"end":12220.772,"text":"有這四五千億的資金來借給薯條三兄弟那乾脆這些金額直接借給需要的民眾就好啦幹嘛這個注定公司呢不是這樣嗎注定公司吸我們借款需求大眾們吸他們的血收他們的高利貸、高額約金、高手續費"},{"start":12227.39,"end":12250.269,"text":"吸他們的血這是多可惡的事情結果金管會一推四五六通通不管連萬個金額都不能問很奇怪我覺得光這一點就應該好好整頓銀行局這個局長是誰你好好查一下既然你上來了你可以重新任命就站你後面那一位嗎"},{"start":12256.052,"end":12262.498,"text":"啊 抱歉 我不知道他要來我 我 那個主委你看著辦那麼這等於變相的對 鼠條三兄弟 我用四個字形容銀行局變相的助紂為虐不是嗎 你們默許"},{"start":12281.904,"end":12306.169,"text":"銀行尤其是公營航庫九大公營航庫放五千億的放款給鼠寮三兄弟讓他們去維二不是這樣嗎那另外抱歉侯主席我再簡單因為新竹衛這個我再多個兩分鐘我跟他講一下說ETF"},{"start":12309.045,"end":12323.137,"text":"你們有稍微注意到ETF這個很好但是這個ETF齁我認為首先要糾正的就是關於他們的名稱啦他們名稱都自稱"},{"start":12325.058,"end":12340.968,"text":"高股息、高獲利、高收益甚至把臺灣價值加進去把巴菲特這些名人都拿來當他們廣告的用語最主要他們現在竟然還大剌剌的透過"},{"start":12342.85,"end":12356.04,"text":"主流的電視新聞播這些廣告這些假借新聞來欺騙用新聞報導新聞的報導的方式說靠ETF月賺20萬說秒進帳六位數然後買這個新聞報導ETF是買ETF大賺說沒有工作但是一個月有11萬8千元的股息"},{"start":12371.001,"end":12399.855,"text":"沒工作喔還特定說那這個為什麼說他買了ETF00919買00929的也不錯每次配息啊股息0.13元算每個月可領195,000元這公開大大大的債我們主流電視媒體以新聞報導的方式所以我認為主委你認為這些是不是該管現在的管理只憑他們"},{"start":12401.881,"end":12418.636,"text":"這些投信投估公會他們公會去自律這個自律一點效果都沒有自律完全沒有罰則你罰他他都可能不怕了更何況沒有罰則不是嗎沒有罰則那說一說用勸導的就對了道德勸說就對天啊所以那個"},{"start":12427.648,"end":12439.513,"text":"是不是主委你簡單答覆一下好嗎報告委員剛剛的是他們自立規範是有罰則啦剛剛就是有關融資公司的部分有些地方我們再跟委員再報告謝謝"},{"start":12441.809,"end":12445.211,"text":"有關公司的訊息內容再跟委員報告"},{"start":12463.303,"end":12485.372,"text":"這跟我看到你過去的著作你的一些言論當然你那時候是對壽險講的啦怎麼奇怪這個鬆緊度差這麼多我希望你能夠同一個標準很好你對壽險業的看法很好請你先移轉你這個關注力以及你的專業那麼先移轉到"},{"start":12488.083,"end":12499.326,"text":"董事公司、薯條三兄弟跟這些投信投股他們所發行的ETF可不可以過來關注 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝時間到沒關係啦 那個新來的要謙遜一下謝謝謝謝現在的訪問是楊瓊英 楊委員"},{"start":12517.1,"end":12517.281,"text":"養育委員"},{"start":12527.06,"end":12540.364,"text":"2023年8月份我們看到比特幣跟虛擬通貨的發展協會他們去主辦了一個臺灣區塊鏈的產業地圖他們也做了關鍵報告這個在當中我們看到國內超過有200家區塊鏈的企業他從事的這些的業務項目以及他的企業概況"},{"start":12553.849,"end":12568.826,"text":"這個部分我們看到有將近七成的這個部分是在過去五年相關公司有七成是在過去五年就已經成立那換句話說是越來越多的虛擬資產業它會跟金管會你們這邊來申請洗錢防治的這個聲明"},{"start":12573.792,"end":12594.145,"text":"那講了這個背景主要也就是說顯示我國的虛擬資產是正在蓬勃發展有在成長而且它發展的速度似乎比原先我們所預估的還要速度加快你認同嗎它的速度是加快的你認同嗎確實發展很快"},{"start":12595.286,"end":12610.776,"text":"您也認同是很快喔那所以包括9月因為之前的主委有說是在9月份的時候呢虛擬資產專法要出來但是我剛剛聽到同仁問你的時候呢您是說什麼時候會出來"},{"start":12612.623,"end":12638.589,"text":"跟委員報告是說因為我們現在針對虛擬專法我們現在是正在一個專案委託研究案那9月應該是你剛剛說的是9月份才要草案出來9月是那個研究報告才研究報告那怎麼跟上一任的主委差距這麼大呢他是說9月份的時候專法會出來應該是專法的研究報告你後面再給他括號一個加速一個研究報告"},{"start":12641.163,"end":12659.813,"text":"請教如果依照你剛剛的回答是9月份才專法的研究報告那換句話說要等到明年喔是的那如果依照你的繳呈是9月份專法的研究報告出來什麼時候才會送出來呢"},{"start":12661.643,"end":12682.99,"text":"這個預計就是9月份的話那我們的研究報告出來我們會緊隆密鼓來開始進行你的緊隆密鼓是什麼時候會出來呢就剛剛的可能最快是明年明年什麼時候呢明年的話就要看那個整個立法的精神因為這個全新的法案所以我們要可能要花點時間要評估一下你有沒有KPI出來了現在有沒有"},{"start":12685.054,"end":12693.06,"text":"這個這麼重要我相信不管誰當主委那這個對目前臺灣社會你剛剛也說了是腳步加快"},{"start":12694.417,"end":12716.733,"text":"那這樣情況我們如果拖那麼久那怎麼辦呢民眾怎麼辦呢對我們收到這個專案以後這個報告以後我們會盡速來處理啦你所謂的盡速本身要請教你總是做了一件事情你已經ING進行事當中你絕對有你的預估碼你的KPI碼如果依照主委您剛才說的我們再重複"},{"start":12718.549,"end":12745.105,"text":"9月你們才會將專法的研究報告出來是不是是的那請問那你的儘快什麼時候專法會出來明年上半年明年上半年注意可能你這個角度這個這個角度可能要要加速對我們如果能夠快我們就盡量因為這個社會有這個期待有沒有信心"},{"start":12748.787,"end":12766.776,"text":"因為之前講的是9月份專法要出來那你現在5月啊那你現在是說要讓明年的上半年這差距要幾年呢怎麼會差那麼多應該是要速度更快啊因為目前全世界都在看啊都也在應對啊"},{"start":12769.333,"end":12795.13,"text":"這個9月時程應該是是應該只是報告啦確實對就是剛剛可能這部分我們明年的話我們會等於說我們現在剛剛跟我們報告就是說我們預估在是我們盡快來處理大概明年上半年因為這個主要整合到比較比較多的我們過去比較不熟悉的業態本席之所以願意給你那麼多的時間說明我也希望不正確的訊息也不要讓讓這個民眾來模糊"},{"start":12798.112,"end":12816.393,"text":"但是也的確有差距如果依照你的規劃那大概會差一年所以本席也具體建議因為目前的社會非常的需要你們在盡可能的範圍怎麼樣可以去縮短時間所以是不是應該要專案去管控"},{"start":12817.546,"end":12841.997,"text":"我們所有案子都會這麼做是不是專案管控是不是對我們都會這麼做時間如果可以那麼是不是應該成如你說的盡快是不是可以可不可以可以你們再去盤點盤點你們的時程再順便資料給本席因為包括了你們我們很關心的也就是先買後付搬案"},{"start":12845.742,"end":12861.047,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢要讓打擊、詐騙啊不會因為換人而有所調整有沒有信心剛剛本期在司法委員會我也給新任的部長講"},{"start":12863.329,"end":12877.426,"text":"這個問題越打越糟打擾司法你們終於好不容易送到立法院要盡快排成來討論各個委員不分藍綠白因為現在的民眾很恐慌電話到底要不要聽"},{"start":12879.169,"end":12895.74,"text":"簡訊要不要看哪一個真的哪一個假的真的不是真的假的不是假的假的又是真的真的又是假的這個民眾真的真的是很緊張你有沒有認知到這個問題有我們都非常重視這個問題我們也聯合各相關部會我們都有"},{"start":12896.906,"end":12917.451,"text":"定期密集的在討論這件事情定期密集本期給你一個背景2023年刷卡網購刷卡達到32.4億2022年是1.47倍史上最高在這樣的情況之下也有喔它這個佔比喔是佔在倒刷的部分98.3"},{"start":12919.591,"end":12942.395,"text":"所以這個數字告訴你我們要找他們去防堵有的人甚至可以用釣魚簡訊要去點擊要詐騙這個卡那連百貨公司都受害都綁在一起所以在這樣的情況之下用APP來綁卡盜刷那你們有什麼方案這麼嚴重啊怎麼辦"},{"start":12947.335,"end":12972.451,"text":"我們請銀行局來針對那個銀行那個倒刷的部分來好請說明一下好是 報告委員尤其是針對那個APP綁卡倒刷的這個問題的話主要都是百貨公司的賣或者是賣場的APP啦你怎麼應對那這一塊的話現在銀行公會已經在研議了就是也是要透過這個APP就是這個商店然後我們會跟那個社會面這麼嚴肅喔"},{"start":12975.234,"end":13003.733,"text":"腳步加快好不好我們力量公會加油好不好數字一直在增加欸那我們緩不及急民眾太可憐了好不好速度加快演繹方案給本席我一個議題給主委主委我們說的2026年非現金支付交易的比要達到80億交易金額要達到10兆這個是我們的目標有沒有改變"},{"start":13005.05,"end":13005.316,"text":"有沒有改變"},{"start":13007.349,"end":13034.599,"text":"報告委員還是按照這樣子的目標會達到嗎 有沒有信心因為我告訴你104年到110年你提出的電子化支付比例是5年倍增2023年非現金的部分它的比數成長50%所以這是迫切需要的交易金額是6兆所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到今年第一季非現金交易的比數18.97"},{"start":13037.336,"end":13058.581,"text":"一筆他交易的金額將近兩兆所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到跟去年同一季的比他是增加了24.6%金額也達到將近要15%光光一季就是如此所以主委剛剛局長講的也是依照這個這個數字要達成成功是不是是不是 局長"},{"start":13066.556,"end":13091.864,"text":"是不是貨源是交易金額2026年是10兆那麼非先進的部分是81筆是不是是有沒有信心有市場會協助你消費者也協助你本期講的這個信心也就是政府部門的腳步一定要跟上市場的需求好不好是好不好可以謝謝"},{"start":13099.027,"end":13114.843,"text":"謝謝楊委員那因為現在已經12點了那大家就是在現場就可以先用餐一邊用餐主委可能就比較不方便了你辛苦一下這邊大家都繼續質詢這樣到會議結束下一位請黃國昌黃委員質詢"},{"start":13130.563,"end":13134.446,"text":"首先恭喜您榮任金管會的主委拉希德總統在5209指引說的時候有提到針對於物價、房價、貧富差距的問題要逐段的改善"},{"start":13156.735,"end":13173.335,"text":"那如果我們談改善的話就必須要誠實面對我們現在的狀況那我相信不管是透過國泰房地產指數還是信譽房價指數我上面寫的base line是從2016年開始"},{"start":13174.523,"end":13203.169,"text":"一直到2024年的Q1可以很清楚地看得出來那個攀升的幅度是非常驚人的當然我們在看房價指數的時候不能只看房價指數所以我們如果把房價指數跟薪資的成長率以及我們GDP的成長率一起放進來看的話除了可以很清楚地看到薪資的成長率如果我們以2016年當作Baseline的話"},{"start":13204.089,"end":13222.058,"text":"到2023年是漲了15%我們的GDP漲了34%再往上我們的房價指數漲了大概51%因此年輕的世代他們所在面臨的"},{"start":13223.098,"end":13250.213,"text":"他們的薪資永遠沒有辦法追上房價升高的速度這個是一個客觀存在的事實那不是只是一個主觀的感受當然當我們在討論房價所則比的時候通常政府有兩個政策工具一個是稅制稅制的部分可能跟財政部會比較有關係但是另外一個就是金融政策也就是說金管會在有關於規範"},{"start":13251.934,"end":13267.58,"text":"我們的金融機構在放款的時候它是一個非常重要的政策調控工具那面對這樣子的狀況主委在善用金管會所擁有的政策工具的時候您有沒有什麼樣的想法這點可不可以容許我請行局來幫我回答這問題可以嗎"},{"start":13275.819,"end":13298.439,"text":"可是你是主委啊對當然就是這部分就我所知就是銀行我們在針對這個不通產放款有一定的比例的限制有一些政策性上面的鼓勵這個都是有助於在比如說幫助年輕人在做放款的時候有些政策我想這部分我們能夠幫助到年輕人我們會持續來推動"},{"start":13300.1,"end":13313.409,"text":"還有就是有關不要過度集中於在某個地方我想這個相關的規定也有一些規範不好意思時間的關係我必須要插一下我的理解是主委您是保險的專家"},{"start":13314.827,"end":13331.916,"text":"不敢那可能在銀行端的部分未來也在您主委的範圍之內那因為您剛上任主委我相信有必要要給您一定的時間去全盤的思考跟規劃怎麼樣達成新政府內閣"},{"start":13333.397,"end":13350.989,"text":"所在總統就職演說的時候講得很清楚房價的問題必須要改善那我以下就代主委看一下過去發生的狀況在2020年的時候央行已經警告我們的不動產貸款"},{"start":13353.771,"end":13377.325,"text":"佔整個金融機構放款的比例35.8%在2020年的時候事實上已經太高了因為如果過多的銀行貸款的融資是跑到有關於不動產建築業的貸款的話那事實上它有可能會推升整個房價不斷的上升因為我們希望"},{"start":13378.467,"end":13387.969,"text":"銀行的資金是拿來促進實體經濟而不是拿來炒房的我相信這樣子的一個政策目標主委您應該是認同的吧"},{"start":13388.975,"end":13408.821,"text":"當然居住這裡你再試好但問題是雖然央行在2020年就已經發出警訊了但事實上情況好像沒有變好越來越嚴重到2024年1月的時候其實有關於不動產的放款已經到銀行整個融資的爬升到37.44%了也就是情況比2020年的時候還要惡化"},{"start":13414.583,"end":13429.711,"text":"那這個會牽涉到說具體的數字我相信銀行局的同仁或金管會的同仁可以幫你整理得很好你實際上面來看一看我們如果只focus在銀行建築業的貸款的話你會發現從2016年的1兆6161億到2018年的1兆7825億平均每個月增加62億"},{"start":13442.017,"end":13466.391,"text":"但是從2018年8月以後到去年年底的時候平均每月增加已經到了233億那個攀升的速度相當相當的驚人那如果我們再進一步擴大地看不是只有銀行建築的貸款而是到整個銀行房地產的放款餘額的話那個數字更是驚人"},{"start":13467.512,"end":13488,"text":"更是驚人啊增加了從2018年到去年年底的時候增加了4.586億也就是說非常多銀行的融資跑到了不動產市場當中那推高了整個房價也正是因為啊這個樣子事實上在銀行法72條之2"},{"start":13489.801,"end":13509.714,"text":"我們規範商業銀行辦理住宅以及企業放款的總額不可以超過他所收存款以及金融債券發行額的百分之三十我相信這個主委你很清楚但是過去的金管會他事實上在這個百分之三十的限額他又開了一個新的後門"},{"start":13510.655,"end":13538.887,"text":"又開了一個新的後門剛剛我在做比較的時候為什麼以2018年來當作一個切分的時間點是有它的道理在的那針對這樣子的一個政策針對這樣子的一個政策監管會做了這樣子的事情所產生實際的效果剛剛主委應該可以看得出來它的效果是很劇烈的所以上次這個我都跳不過去了因為時間到了我只想最後一件事"},{"start":13540.248,"end":13567.076,"text":"因此上次我在跟央行總裁也是在財政委員會進行質詢的時候我有提醒央行總裁這樣子的事情他也認同說當房價不斷飆升的時候不動產放款的比例現在我不是講絕對值喔連比例本身都在不斷的攀升的時候在這樣的情況之下我們的金管會還幫不動產的放款開了後門開了後門去"},{"start":13570.915,"end":13589.562,"text":"迴避掉銀行法72條之二的規定這件事情本身恐怕有需要再思考的必要因此我那時候建議央行的總裁這件事情可能在配合他們整體性的"},{"start":13590.562,"end":13602.812,"text":"貨幣的政策到你們金管會在規範有關於不動產放款的融資銀行商業大款的融資的規範上面可能要找金管會談一談您上任了以後跟總裁見過面了嗎"},{"start":13607.026,"end":13621.571,"text":"在應該在之前見過上任還沒有上任以後還沒有嘛那我希望說齁主任能夠關注這個問題沒有問題您剛上任的時候該給您的時間跟空間我相信每一位關心不同議題的委員都會願意"},{"start":13623.892,"end":13642.555,"text":"給您這樣的事件那但是這件事情是以現在進行式非常快速而且惡化的在發生我要拜託主委一定要特別關注這樣的事情因為金管會手上其實對於抑制房價不斷的攀升是有不錯"},{"start":13643.396,"end":13667.226,"text":"的政策工具那希望您就任金管或主委以後能夠在這些政策的調整上協助我們的新政府實現居住正義的價值謝謝這樣可以嗎可以可以這樣這個非常非常緊張好我希望下次在跟您見面的時候我們今天的主題的討論就會再更深一步了好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝總經理謝謝"},{"start":13675.982,"end":13695.078,"text":"下一位質詢請葛如君葛委員謝謝主席 有請金管會彭金隆主委備詢林鵬主委"},{"start":13698.82,"end":13721.101,"text":"各位好主委您好今天特別到財委會是想要確認在新主委的領導之下金管會對於前任這個主委的政策相關態度以及後續的做法金管會其實早就體察民意了解到國人對於多元投資商品的需求所以在113年度也就是今年的施政計畫當中有提到"},{"start":13722.021,"end":13749.303,"text":"開放市格銀行正對高資產客群理財需求提供多元化金融商品擴大金融業務範疇開放證券期貨多元商品及投資管道滿足多元化商品需求考量目前的這個市場的狀況以及我們的這個金融的現況請問一下主委您是否同意遵照黃錢主委的路線捍衛民眾對於投資商品多元選擇的權益"},{"start":13751.064,"end":13765.234,"text":"我想提供我們市場上需要的產品安全的產品一直都是金管會努力的目標很好 因為您剛剛也表示不要過度集中那我們就要來問您另外一元就是另外一種Coin"},{"start":13766.155,"end":13791.328,"text":"叫比特元我們民間叫做比特幣比特幣ETF的負委託今年1月10號美國證券交易委員會SEC宣布批准比特幣現貨的ETF交易一共有11檔比特幣ETF申請全數獲得通過但是遺憾的是國內券商在1月23號發出公告表示收到金管會一紙通知而且"},{"start":13792.088,"end":13819.95,"text":"不是非常的明確說是什麼理由只能透過附委託賣出連結虛擬貨幣現貨以及期貨相關的商品不可以新增委託買進受到影響的由美國及香港市場約21檔相關的ETF到現在可能還會越來越多我們明白目前國內法規尚不允許我們自己的金控公司、金融公司推出自己的比特幣ETF在台上市但是禁止國內的民眾以"},{"start":13821.531,"end":13835.787,"text":"金管會鼓勵的付委託方式來購買不可以購買美國的比特幣現貨的ETF確實在投資界引起了不小的反彈那想請教一下這個我們在3月4號"},{"start":13836.528,"end":13865.068,"text":"曾經質詢過黃錢主委有表示當時他表示要求券商公會研議是否開放付委託交易加密貨幣尤其比特幣現貨的ETF如果有意則需要在4月底前提出配套方案甚至有告訴我們呢最好的消息有可能最快會在4月底出現我想請問一下主委據悉券商公會已經在4月中向金管會提出配套方案請問目前的審議進度如何可否簡要說明大概什麼時候我們會有一個明確的結論"},{"start":13866.289,"end":13886.095,"text":"謝謝委員就是我們確實那個券商工會已經在4月24號提出了他們的建議方案過來他們主要參考說現在國際上並不是所有都全面開放比如說韓國跟日本就沒開放但新加坡然後還有像香港他是有開放的就是說這部分券商工會的建議是這樣他說建議開放專業投資人購買虛擬資產ETF且出資買賣是應簽據風險預告書"},{"start":13892.297,"end":13911.164,"text":"有限定的開放可能會往這個方向走那請問一下投信公會是不是有引進這樣子的一個國外既有的加密貨幣ETF基金向金管會提出或者有沒有其他的金控已經在跟你們講說他們也想要推出自己的比特幣的ETF"},{"start":13913.126,"end":13941.3,"text":"那個委員可不可以允許我們請問局長做更詳細的說明可以嗎好時間不是很多但是可以代藥跟委員報告那個投信的部分因為有價證金比特幣不是有價證金所以那一部分有沒有人提有沒有國內的業者跟你們提出想要開放想要推出這樣的產品有這樣的提出來有嗎那我想這個希望我們可以持續的守護擁護多元的方針畢竟這是你們的施政報告提出來"},{"start":13942.02,"end":13962.807,"text":"那這一次金管會業務報告也提到了6月底前將公布金融業運用AI指引請問主委指引所涵蓋的面向跟大致的內容能不能讓我們大概知道一下我可不可以請我們那個同仁過來跟您做一個時間稍微暫停一下如果可以讓他移動一下"},{"start":13964.923,"end":13988.361,"text":"跟委員報告我們那個AI指引的部分目前是包含像是希望在製理面的部分希望金融機構至少在針對這個AI系統要他可能要在設計或者是研發甚至是要在有這個模型的時候都必須要先經過公司有一個指定的主管那另外就是針對這個數據的蒐集可能也必須要注意到公平性"},{"start":13988.901,"end":14009.274,"text":"還有就是要以人為本這樣子希望能夠連結到產業的真實面尤其針對伺服器接地等等的一些規範要有一些彈性畢竟大語言模型生成是AI某種程度來說是非常非常國際化的如果我們只限縮在本地很可能會讓我們的金融業失去競爭力"},{"start":14010.214,"end":14032.785,"text":"最後還是再次提醒諸位高達84%的臺灣人有投資習慣金管會禁止付委託購買反而反而會讓更多想買美國比特幣ETF的民眾沒有辦法用金管會鼓勵民眾合法使用付委託的方式來購買比特幣的現貨ETF反而變成要翻牆了直接"},{"start":14033.325,"end":14057.032,"text":"透過海外券商而很多海外券商也被你們名列說是在臺灣不合法如實以來政府將更難以掌握民眾對於美國比特幣ETF的投資情形國內券商則少了手續費的收入民眾如果與國外券商發生投資糾紛還要自行承擔風險甚至可能不勝掉入詐騙的陷阱毫無保障這對於政府"},{"start":14057.872,"end":14084.021,"text":"國內金融的業者和民眾來說可以說三書或者多書我就再次的來跟您分享美國比特幣ETF與其他傳統金融商品其實沒有差別這已經是經過美國的法院所認定的美國SEC也都同意推出了每一位進入投資市場的民眾本來就應該要基本的投資判斷能力希望金管費可以真正的去守護民眾的"},{"start":14084.881,"end":14110.627,"text":"多元的這樣子的一個方向讓大家有更多的商品選擇資訊公開的透明讓大家都能夠接受投資商品的價格波動不然呢讓大家都只能選擇本地的商品我們的ETF呢講了很多數字講了很多臺灣價值結果到現在價格也還沒回去結果呢明明在美國已經可以合法購買的東西我們卻禁止他用付委託方式購買禁止付委託不是最好的做法"},{"start":14111.027,"end":14120.339,"text":"金管會應該保障民眾以負委託的方式投資國外虛擬貨幣尤其比特幣現貨ETF的權益謝謝謝謝委員執政謝謝好 謝謝下一位執行請陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":14140.29,"end":14164.619,"text":"有請這個彭主委謝謝請彭主委陳委員好主委早您是5月20號上任是的那昨天有看到立法院的行刑嗎有有什麼想法有看轉播有有什麼想法當然大家辛苦了"},{"start":14166.124,"end":14167.245,"text":"請問您本身有沒有經歷過詐騙?"},{"start":14183.055,"end":14203.517,"text":"我比較幸運還沒有雖然有騙沒成功所以你有被騙被詐騙集團收到簡訊啊這些也是有啦只是沒有被騙成但是你也經歷過詐騙這個事情對嘛有沒有人利用過你的頭像啊做什麼投資啊方面的這一種據我所知目前還沒有真的喔"},{"start":14203.937,"end":14225.642,"text":"那可能還不知道你算是也是可能是人才啦像我完全不懂得投資的但是我自己本身就經歷過我的頭像被放在什麼那種那個什麼投資的那個連我自己都非常驚訝所以而且本期常常接到很多的這個陳情非常非常多不只是金門地區包括臺灣這邊也一樣就是"},{"start":14229.723,"end":14256.13,"text":"各個林寧城都有我的家人各方面詐騙不管是網路或者是投資這一種非常的多所以我想請問因為我們在觀察這個詐騙當中當然很多最後要騙錢最後都是要經過一個金流所以金流就是說錢可能就要轉帳比如說他說這個你的車子沒有繳費要按進去用什麼信用卡用什麼點點點點點點就把你的資料騙走"},{"start":14257.95,"end":14259.411,"text":"有限公司、臺灣集中保險有限公司、臺灣集中保險有限公司、臺灣集中保險"},{"start":14274.665,"end":14301.534,"text":"你們這個報告裡對於詐騙你們是說有跟這個網路平台業者溝通113年6月底前配合完成系統調整落實投資廣告實名制對吧意思就是說以後任何人的頭像包括彭主委您的那個如果那個要上線的話比如說某家他的頭像要做這個投資這個上線的話就必須用實名制對吧是 這我們投信投過法70條之1裡面的規定"},{"start":14303.311,"end":14322.446,"text":"本來就有的是嗎?就是我們為了這個東西新訂的規定為了這個事情新加了一個防範措施所以是在6月 等於是下個月底前就會完成了?那是因為我們跟那個Meta的部分他承諾就是說他會在6月以前會改善"},{"start":14323.277,"end":14348.752,"text":"改善就是為了完成的意思是嗎?那如果他沒有完成呢?因為你這樣宣示以後就表示說7月1號以後如果在臉書上看到彭金隆說跟大家說這個投資ABCDE那這個東西就不會是假的啦我們期待是這樣一個狀況那你的意思是說反面來想說他有實名制嘛所以我在臉書看到那個就不會假的嘛那如果平台業者沒有做好勒?"},{"start":14349.632,"end":14363.719,"text":"有救責的機制嗎?有有,投信投顧法應該130...就是這個業者平台業者平台業者有沒有救責的機制呢?有,那其實我們在剛剛報告的投信投顧法裡面就有這樣的罰則再來我們接下來打詐專法裡面就會對平台業者苛責"},{"start":14366.98,"end":14385.065,"text":"打砸專法已經過來了嗎?現在已經送到大院了已經送過來喔?那我們這個要盡快的審議喔?是的那另外一個這個帳戶的部分喔我也想到第三方支付,您知道那個您不知道對中國大陸有沒有了解喔?您知道大陸這個就是這個支付喔就是行動支付非常非常方便,您知道嗎?知道"},{"start":14386.065,"end":14406.193,"text":"微信、支付寶,您知道嗎?那為什麼我們國內臺澎金馬地區這種行動支付的部分非常不方便呢?這可能是不是有地區別的差別?為什麼?你的親身體驗、你的認知,你身為金融行政委員認知的?"},{"start":14407.526,"end":14407.546,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":14422.506,"end":14423.166,"text":"會不會有具體作為?"},{"start":14443.387,"end":14469.406,"text":"報告委員因為我們剛剛有跟其他委員也有報告提到就是說我們有定一個非現金支付的一個比率那這個比率不是只有光是數字的達成然後我們也有擬了一些工作的計畫那裡面其實有一個工作計畫就是針對就是說比如說一些比較傳統的市級或者是比較需要發展特約商店也就是這個商店"},{"start":14470.266,"end":14483.66,"text":"他們本來習慣用現金的然後可以讓他們慢慢轉成用電子支付的方式那也有相當的一些鼓勵措施我想這個部分可能也要配合比如說這個在商圈配合經濟部這個也要做相關的這個部分可能下去也應該當作一個業務的重點另外一個來我剛剛提到詐騙一個很重要我們說金流嘛這個斷點的問題"},{"start":14492.188,"end":14496.089,"text":"我發現這個各個金融機構事實上在做這個詐騙的、主詐的、匯錢的部分做得算還是不錯啦那一些經驗就是說他們都會去勸這些要匯很多錢或怎麼樣跟他說可能是詐騙所以這個部分我建議說這個部分對各個機構如果有做這個部分要鼓勵鼓勵以外給獎勵"},{"start":14512.455,"end":14527.911,"text":"這是蠻重要的但是呢我有一個經驗就是說但是這個開戶方面就是說如果發現這個是詐騙集團的這個戶頭我覺得你們在這個開戶方面各方面包括後續有沒有考慮說像我跟你講這個道路的政策它是怎麼樣"},{"start":14529.052,"end":14547.222,"text":"開戶當然也不容易有很多種證件我們現在是用雙證件最少但是如果說這個人他的戶頭曾經被當作是詐騙被詐騙集團使用這個人就不能再開戶我們有沒有打算怎麼樣做比較嚴格的措施來避免這個詐騙集團實在太過猖獗還有包括"},{"start":14552.45,"end":14565.507,"text":"剛剛委員講的沒錯就是我們像我們現在的銀行做的臨櫃關懷剛剛那個主張那個是做得不錯有時候過道常常被這個臨櫃的長者有時候還會罵就被關切是是是這個剛剛就講說賬戶問題賬戶的管理其實我們現在有很多很多的機制在處理中"},{"start":14570.413,"end":14580.641,"text":"來 峻起講可是因為我覺得這個應該是做得非常不夠不然不會詐騙集團還透過銀行的帳戶或是什麼信用卡這樣子還這麼的猖獗這個金流你們事實上是主詐裡面最重要的一環因為錢都要從你們這邊進啊出啊 對不對是"},{"start":14588.968,"end":14616.461,"text":"所以呢具體有沒有什麼作為我們現在比如說列入警司帳戶你接下來可能也沒辦法再開戶啦剛剛也有類似的機制啦那我們還有像個比如說境內境外的那個帳戶的管制其實我們現在都有跟聯合內政部跟警政署那邊做蠻多的這樣那個努力我聽到的具體的作為就是說各個部位是各行其政沒有做很好的整合現在可能會所以才會造成這個現在我們就在一直強化這一點"},{"start":14617.898,"end":14642.899,"text":"那具體的措施那個麻煩你給我一個報告包括我剛說的行動支付的部分然後這個詐騙的這個打詐的具體措施因為這個包括你剛有說這個投資這個廣告這個平台Meta這個部分的要實名制的這個部分謝謝這沒問題那這個恭喜您上任那我看到媒體有幫你這個整理好一些各種挑戰不過還是希望您去過金門嗎"},{"start":14644,"end":14646.763,"text":"金門銀行局公布的113年3月底的金融分支機構的加速帶增價地區,全國有83個鄉鎮,金門就有"},{"start":14665.604,"end":14679.279,"text":"五加一鄉鎮有三個鄉鎮還是金融機構的分支機構加速人袋增加包括金鈴鄉、金沙鎮跟獵蟻鄉若有一半以上的鄉鎮金融機構還是不足"},{"start":14680.06,"end":14680.18,"text":"實行進度如何?"},{"start":14700.86,"end":14721.196,"text":"其實這是我們一直努力的目標啦希望就是說因為普惠金融裡面講金融是基本的權利啦那我們盡量再怎麼樣鼓勵這個業者去把我們的普惠的覆蓋率能夠做到全覆蓋那是用鼓勵的嘛對因為現在這個確實我們會透過一些有效的措施來增進這件事情"},{"start":14721.596,"end":14748.937,"text":"什麼叫有效的措施你用鼓勵的比如說銀行業人他可能不願意去設啊或者是尤其是像有可能成本上考量來講成本上考量來講的確是不划算我們相信人少的地方嘛但是您知道金融機構它不是只有盈利的那個不是只是盈利事業有排他性也有一種這個而且它是這個贏權是公共賦予的有一定的社會性嘛也是特許行業嘛所以這個部分是不是有沒有什麼預期要達成的目標呢"},{"start":14750.418,"end":14772.871,"text":"預期要達成的目標我要具體的我要具體的這個部分我想先目標我們該一致的我想問一下局長有沒有什麼具體的不好意思謝謝你不知道你不知道是不是來沒關係喔因為我時間到你不知道也剛上任了所以剛剛針對本席所詢問那三個議題因為您剛上任大概給你一個月的時間好不好"},{"start":14773.251,"end":14773.391,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝陳委員"},{"start":14804.952,"end":14807.536,"text":"下一位請林楚英林委員質詢謝主席主席有請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":14821.482,"end":14835.535,"text":"主委好你好主委好我知道今天才第二天上任如果等一下本席所詢問的一些事情那麼您在業務的部分還沒有完全熟悉的話可以讓其他出席的我們包括其他的局處的首長來協助非常謝謝"},{"start":14839.198,"end":14866.531,"text":"那麼我想其實這個金管會對於金融秩序的監理過去其實一直都是非常重要的那我其實比較關注的當然今天我就來先講銀行這個貸款的部分前面其實也有聽到一些委員在關心當然就是有關於這個我們融資公司到底要不要納作金管會來管理但是最近許多的新聞事件頻傳啦銀行利用應該是說民眾"},{"start":14867.972,"end":14892.625,"text":"或者是法人用不動產來跟銀行借款的時候為什麼會出現超貸的情況那麼像這些東西都是不勝美舉包括是不是因為原因就出在求援兼裁判因為今天時間有限我就只是把這些新聞的標題拿出來我不多做細數但是會不會其實銀行的貸款它就是有關係你就安心貸如果沒關係就好難貸"},{"start":14893.866,"end":14918.718,"text":"我們其實都會發現說如果今天我拿你的資產去貸款的時候有人老屋可以可能50年以上的老屋可以貸個八成以上甚至於九成還可以貸到裝潢費有些人呢他甚至於是即使房子在那裡同樣的條件他會貸不出來甚至於加上他的年紀如果不符合銀行的潛規則比如75、85"},{"start":14923.166,"end":14940.794,"text":"他連貸的能力都沒有那麼這個會不會是一種所謂求援兼裁判也就是銀行自己決定了今天來貸的人到底他的關係如何那我想請問的就是如何我們讓一般真的他本身就有貸款能力的人不要"},{"start":14941.814,"end":14960.773,"text":"進入到所謂的融資公司進入吸血的地獄我不知道主委知不知道其實內政委員會今天在審查的有一個法案是叫做不動產估價師法的修正今天這個剛剛可能已經會議結束但今天抱歉抱歉沒有掌握到好沒有問題來看下一張"},{"start":14963.134,"end":14975.032,"text":"就是我希望主委能夠關注這個事情就是我們都知道銀行在做融資的過程當中對於不動產他會有一些房屋條件的估價"},{"start":14976.021,"end":15002.057,"text":"但是如果你要避免有人因為有關係就安心貸沒關係就好難貸最後只好去找這個融資公司進入吸血地獄那麼是不是在這樣的審核過程當中銀行的審核必須要有所謂關鍵的第三人來確保受信的品質這個其實我在這裡其實已經過去的四年我不止一次的呼籲就是希望"},{"start":15002.597,"end":15005.699,"text":"金管會要重視這個部分幫我回到第一頁前面有人有關係借的到老一屋還可以短期念三代然後銀行內部也常常出現內鬼來炸彈那這些狀況"},{"start":15021.084,"end":15038.018,"text":"是不是可以透過公正的第三方來做處理呢 主委比如說讓銀行能夠有所謂不動產的估價師我會提到今天內政委員會的修法是因為希望透過修法讓不動產估價師的助理能夠有一個合理化的名份在那裡那麼銀行或是金融機構如果說"},{"start":15048.933,"end":15064.232,"text":"他沒有一個常駐的不動產估價師那麼至少可以有一個不動產估價師的助理那這個是不是一個解決銀行求援兼裁判要不超貸被發現"},{"start":15065.453,"end":15088.368,"text":"要不呢就是沒關係好難帶或者是他的條件不夠好但是也許未來的規劃上面有機會還是扶有還款能力的時候他不要進入融資公司的受害者進入吸血地獄我知道主委你有點子王之稱啦那某首題的提問有沒有可能評估或有沒有可能一個方向來做了解"},{"start":15089.569,"end":15114.512,"text":"就是委員您剛才說到的其實我覺得專業又透明的資訊絕對對交易安全是有很大的幫助那剛才也跟局長簡單討論一下未來我們可以來朝這個比如說一定金額以上我們看能不能跟這個比如說剛才講這些更更公正客觀的這個資訊團體來做一個做一個這個合作讓整個交易更更趨近於公平"},{"start":15114.952,"end":15133.649,"text":"好因為本席在過去幾年的質詢當中喔常常銀行不論是公股、行庫或者是我們這些金融機構都說啊有我們都有我們都有自己的評估我們都很專業但是只要高層一通電話又或者是今天看到來"},{"start":15135.307,"end":15153.286,"text":"借款的這個單位或者是這個個人他有比較好的背景那可能就有機會被上下棋手那像這個部分我也希望主委能夠真的承諾就是讓真的客觀公正的第三方在一定的案子當中能夠讓這個資訊更透明"},{"start":15154.807,"end":15179.38,"text":"那最後一點時間我們來看下一張就是本席也非常關注就是有關於這個票率的部分新主委我們都知道主委ESG你也非常的重視那到底如何來防範票率呢我手頭上現在是知道金管會跟環境部正在針對金融機構防範票率有出了一些指引但是我們都知道金融機構他到底有沒有辦法針對"},{"start":15181.641,"end":15205.289,"text":"來進行融資的單位他所融資的項目是真率還是假率又或者是票率那這個過程當中雖然有這個指引但是指引的方向都只是一個目標性有沒有可能有更具體的方向而這個方向能夠讓金融機構跟他的所謂往來的企業能夠有一個更合理的方式而不是說指引只是一種感覺"},{"start":15207.95,"end":15225.632,"text":"沒有錯 未來對永續或綠色大家都非常的關注我們站在監理機關對這個東西也是非常的注意所以我們最近也有訂了一個規範我可以請我們的同仁處長來跟您回答好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":15228.378,"end":15252.791,"text":"委員跟您報告我們這個針對金融業的房票率的指引部分是針對金融業對外宣稱的時候那他可能有一些注意的事項那至於說像譬如說銀行他假設要就是接受他的客戶的時候其實他們會做相關的淨值治理那譬如說像現在有些銀行會發綠色的壽信或者是永續連結貸款那其實我們都有要求他們要遵守國際上面有一個"},{"start":15253.271,"end":15262.524,"text":"包含像是綠色授信的原則等等之類的那所以其實它自己內部會有一個審核的流程所以是可以盡量避免這種票率企業票率的狀況"},{"start":15263.786,"end":15291.79,"text":"主席我只最後一句話就是我希望這些規範是能夠符合國際上面的規章跟需求好嗎那其他更詳細的資料再請金管會提供給我辦公室好的謝謝可以沒有問題謝謝謝謝林柱英委員接著我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才不在邱志偉委員邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉不在洪孟凱委員洪孟凱洪孟凱洪孟凱不在吳春成委員"},{"start":15303.055,"end":15303.82,"text":"請彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":15308.311,"end":15323.798,"text":"主委好我是臺灣民眾黨的吳春成我在立法院大概開議2月1號以來我只有談一個單一話題就叫壯世代針對臺灣高齡化社會的一個問題這個問題臺灣高齡化過去高齡大家都覺得是衛福部的事情"},{"start":15336.184,"end":15359.451,"text":"大概80%的預算都擺在衛福部那其他部會都不重視有的話清庭點水而且都是配合衛福部但是我今天要跟這個因為部長你剛上任不要給你太大壓力讓你適應一下那所以呢主要是我要跟部長跟主委那個瞭解這一個前面我們已經"},{"start":15361.172,"end":15374.421,"text":"三個多月跟金管會所進行的一些討論的事情來跟你報告一下讓你明瞭首先就是這一個概念"},{"start":15377.17,"end":15392.611,"text":"臺灣往前30年最重要的是民主化現在民主已經沒有太大問題了不要再鬧了那往後30年最重要的就是人口學的問題高齡化、少子化這個問題沒有解決好所有事情都白做了"},{"start":15395.351,"end":15401.575,"text":"那個主委看這個圖在1970年代我們人口長這個樣子年齡中位數19.3歲2040年人口圖長這個樣子年齡中位數52歲1970年65歲以上占人口2.9%2040年占30.1%"},{"start":15414.302,"end":15431.717,"text":"10倍可以說是天翻地覆但是我非常驚訝的我發現我們所有的部會都停留在1970年代用1970年代這個想像圖在規劃我們的政策所有的政策都會出問題所以"},{"start":15435.663,"end":15450.153,"text":"每一個部會 這裡每一個部會都在歧視高齡像勞動部 有中高齡就業法我問部長說中高齡值幾歲他說45歲 我說這很遜色對不對 出國念書回來都已經40歲了工作幾年就輔導待退"},{"start":15457.494,"end":15471.341,"text":"所以所有的部門包括交通部包括教育部教育部高齡的預算只占教育部預算的0.2%文化部也是0.2%數位部幾乎各部會都把這一群人"},{"start":15472.601,"end":15492.246,"text":"當作沒有看見但是在這裡法說的問題都推給衛福部這一個我從金融的角度做這個四個象限圖從高資產跟高先進流可以把高利貸分成這四個象限"},{"start":15494.306,"end":15508.946,"text":"第二項現在這裡有高資產又高現金流的人現在這種人我想儘管會所謂的這個這個壯世代是指55家55家以上的人大概掌握臺灣三分之二的財富"},{"start":15510.267,"end":15512.269,"text":"因為收穫錢都被你們金管會把它凍結了"},{"start":15525.922,"end":15542.117,"text":"你們把他凍結了啊 讓他沒有用啊所以就沒有這個產業啊所以對於這一些呢 這個當然要鼓勵有錢、有現金的要鼓勵消費另外呢 有一種在第一項線這裡他有高資產他要遞現金"},{"start":15542.938,"end":15568.631,"text":"那這一錢都幾乎是監管會這邊要努力的目標這一錢怎麼倒流把它流出來另外一項勞動不斷活躍的最後才是衛福部因為這一些現在已經有800萬人壯士代55家以上有800萬人了而且都有選票高投票綠族群大家都知道臺灣除蓄力世界第一包括我們的保險我們的不動產全部都在壯士代手中"},{"start":15569.69,"end":15586.43,"text":"但是這一錢怎麼活化呢讓我們的整個經濟變成一個死水經濟就全部凍結在這裡經濟部位都沒有在發展大家都沒有在開發這一塊都把它適中理所當然的只要財務繼承這樣就好了對不對只要抽那個移產稅就好了OK"},{"start":15589.355,"end":15607.381,"text":"所以我推出了一個叫壯世代一個字改變一個世代欠缺一個那這一個如佛如圖我已經推動了三年然後現在進來國會裡面積極的推動基本上跟各部會都推動過了都幾乎都高度支持那也希望金管會能夠重視這一塊"},{"start":15608.741,"end":15629.879,"text":"那我在3月19號的總諮詢的時候跟陳建仁院長他承諾兩件事情要請金管會建立壯士代金融行動方案我在看你們的報告書裡面也有提到那在提醒這個當時是院長跟黃謙主委承諾我的東西所以要繼續承接下來"},{"start":15630.72,"end":15643.37,"text":"那透過比照綠色金融的方式來推動壯大金融行動方案還有上市櫃公司的高齡社會永續發展的這個路徑那沐上次的回應回給我的是這個"},{"start":15646.646,"end":15661.336,"text":"有正式公文回覆都說在規劃跟積極的準備中了而且是看起來蠻認真了這個高齡行動方案還有透過資金面、商品面、賠利面、生態系各個方面認真那也希望這個諸委能夠繼續督導"},{"start":15665.663,"end":15693.671,"text":"那共同的把這本來高齡化是一場陰法海嘯變成國家發展的動力那在這裡金管會扮演非常的動力的一部分那我現在正最近在讀一本書是我們臺灣金融研訓院的黃崇哲院長也在座剛剛去跟他打招呼他的理念跟這一個非常好他說這是我剛剛的標題說金融是穿越未來的時光機我覺得他是一個浪漫的人"},{"start":15694.611,"end":15707.51,"text":"但是的確很有道理時光機就是把未來的災難可以把它拉到現在來處理你現在不處理那個直線發展那個災難就必然發生所以這必須要透過金融的手段"},{"start":15711.235,"end":15739.172,"text":"也最後看到現在我在立法院成立壯時代政策及產業發展促進會有63個立委加入3個黨黨編都是我的副會長有200位專家學者加入大家非常不分黨派的一同來推動壯時代就在這個會場成立會所以就是未來在這個金融方面要拜託我們主委給我們多多的支持謝謝"},{"start":15741.628,"end":15746.971,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝我們吳村城委員謝謝接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員主席在場的委員先進列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請彭主委請到彭主委"},{"start":15771.624,"end":15800.218,"text":"主委你來自學界你知道我們擔任民意代表經常選民有婚禮我們就會送什麼送什麼這個白頭偕老但是現在很難偕老就寫才子佳人或者是鳳凰餘輝生了小孩我們以前會弄弄張之喜現在女男平等你覺得有人家生小孩我們送什麼他四個字"},{"start":15803.069,"end":15832.309,"text":"我們都會送生慶得人我也會送行政院這四個字因為很開心看到您到金管會來那麼過去在常代財委會的朋友們都知道來財委會一定充分準備PowerPoint但是今天我沒有特別準備因為我相信我對主委過去在學界各種的論壇我去參與對您的瞭解以及您也常常給我寶貴意見您對我議題的瞭解應該我們彼此不太需要透過一個PowerPoint來溝通"},{"start":15833.169,"end":15856.013,"text":"加上我今天看了一下您的這個業務概況報告請問是您到任後才指示同仁做收集的嗎?有些部分新的措施確實是我到任後才跟他們討論的那我看的蠻有你的特色這六大面向43個重點第一章就是關於風險監理就是您的本行但是我仔細看了一下我覺得也要幫寫這份"},{"start":15857.171,"end":15877.473,"text":"報告的同仁團隊給予肯定因為以我在財委會這幾年來大概這裡面我所偏好的有三分之一在裡面所以說好球蛋蠻集中的蠻適合揮棒的我相信其他委員可以在這四、三個重點當中找到他們要的題材那底下我就針對幾個部分來就教於主委"},{"start":15878.234,"end":15890.806,"text":"那麼首先在您的第三點的第三面向第九點就是保險契約強制執行的參考原則剛好也是這距離近我都持續的在關心的那請問主委目前有什麼進度嗎"},{"start":15893.101,"end":15914.875,"text":"現在的話就是我們現在會盡快的來跟我們執行單位訂定這個參考原則希望把這個處理能夠有一個更明確的方法交給這執行單位來處理減少這些案件跟民怨那再來當然接下來還是要從根本上我們會修保險法把有關那個受惠人借物權的部分把它修到保險法裡面解決這個問題"},{"start":15916.104,"end":15934.335,"text":"好,那我想在市局長的協助之下應該可以很順利的很快的就完成這個任務那接下來我也看到了在期前防制要分階段納管虛擬資產平台與交易業務剛曉我這會期被發配到司法法制委員會"},{"start":15935.436,"end":15964.238,"text":"看到您這些題目我都很後悔但沒辦法在那個重災區我們也關心到一些議題跟我們金管會有關那明天我們要排審洗錢防治法那這當中關於心理資產我們也問了一下新任的法務部正部長好像他說也有跟您拜託過請託過因為現在很多詐團的犯罪所得他們基本上民眾最想要的就是把被騙的錢拿回來是不是這樣"},{"start":15965.325,"end":15983.952,"text":"是的但是呢他們不管動產不動產那很好查但是遇到了虛幣或者是加密貨幣虛擬資產就沒轍了但是這裡面呢是未來訪問部的一個重點那我跟他提到說可能需要金管會這邊來協助那您覺得關於這個部分金管會可以幫得上什麼忙"},{"start":15986.964,"end":16002.37,"text":"這個主要是我們在整個分工部分的話我們大概是在主柵就跟委員提到就是說但是零貴關懷主柵但是後面的加密貨幣或虛擬資產對對對這是我們在那個那個打柵專法裡面也把那個虛擬資產跟虛擬帳戶也放進來這裡規範就是這個部分把我們的整個規範的範圍加大了"},{"start":16008.092,"end":16022.709,"text":"那再來就是剛剛前陣子我們在行政防治法裡面也開始用登記制的方式納管這些所謂的這些的未來進行虛擬財產交易的那個那個對象這部分也會大幅提高這個管控的強度"},{"start":16023.029,"end":16047.695,"text":"好很好主委這邊給一個參考的方向啦齁那麼就他們辦案的意見來講呢其實啊詐騙所的如果是用貨幣金錢啊進入到銀行帳戶啊因為大水庫啊進進出出到底哪一筆錢是哪個人被詐的要緩繁實務上很困難因為什麼錢是一模一樣的但是相反的虛幣加密貨幣或虛擬資產就不一樣囉你給他的每一個"},{"start":16049.315,"end":16077.686,"text":"資產都是有ID的所以你後來交給了誰都是可追查的如果這個部分你們做得到這些交易的路徑其實對於被害者他犯罪所他的損失要追回反而讓司法機關有個依循您同意嗎這個同意好那另外最後就要拜託銀行局了那在之前也關於到另外這個非加密貨幣或虛擬資產的部分傳統的這些銀行的轉帳我們看到很多年輕人"},{"start":16079.257,"end":16102.313,"text":"他的帳號被拿去當人頭帳戶很倒楣在短短的時間內交易了好幾次馬上變成警示帳號甚至妨礙他未來的信用請問你認為要如何來防制這樣的情況再發生我們的帳戶的分級可以做到嗎?就像我們的ATM期款或者信用卡可以分級有的卡只能夠3萬元有的卡可以上百萬元您覺得未來銀行帳戶可以做類似的分級管理嗎?"},{"start":16105.848,"end":16124.377,"text":"報告委員其實現在銀行自己本身就已經做有一些分級的管理了比如說久未往來的帳戶他如果一旦來更換他的硬件或者是一些他的現況的情況我了解我是想請教主委那未來你覺得可以怎麼樣去強化呢這也在你們的43個重點當中"},{"start":16127.2,"end":16146.998,"text":"這個確實對於賬戶的分級管理我們除了現有的方式以外我們現在已經開始在研究或是折騰我們的這個銀行公會針對像比如說我們能不能有效的在源頭就做一些分級管理的管控這我們會來強化比如說什麼呢你們的分級管理可以更具體的或描述幾個例子方向讓我們思考一下嗎"},{"start":16148.541,"end":16162.698,"text":"假設這個帳戶過去很久沒有動或說剛開戶的人他要進行高頻的交易就可能會受到一些技術性的阻攔這部分的話我們會朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":16163.419,"end":16186.854,"text":"最後一點時間我大概附帶一點個人有錢薄的金融經驗我個人沒有做生意那一般不會申請支票賬戶但我記得在更早之前有人告訴我你做一個上班族你的薪資賬戶你要累積到一定的信用銀行才會給你發給支票賬戶表示說你必須有一定的信用後你才能去開支票是不是這樣那未來是不是可以往這方面來發展來規劃"},{"start":16189.608,"end":16201.172,"text":"這個朝風險為基礎的管控這應該是同一個方向好 謝謝主委 謝謝三位、四位局長 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員我們謝謝宗教編委員 謝謝接著我們請謝依鳳委員我想要請主委還有彭主委"},{"start":16217.742,"end":16232.394,"text":"彭主委還有政期局的張局長主委早我想請問一下就是我們知道說那個證券交易所的稅它已經降稅這麼久就是當沖的證券交易稅"},{"start":16233.915,"end":16251.402,"text":"到底它在降稅這麼久的過程當中利是什麼?弊是什麼?當初我們考量到降稅可能有稅損嗎?到底對於你們從過去以來這麼長一段時間的評估你們認為優點是什麼?缺點是什麼?"},{"start":16258.412,"end":16286.384,"text":"是 謝謝我想這個當中降稅這個措施實施到現在確實有些成效是出來比如它交易量擴大以後呢流動性增加、價格發行的功能增加市場的效率性增加但是呢它確實也有很多的其他的顧慮比如說當然另外還有一個就是因為它交易量增加稅收增加、手續費增加但是就說假設從損益的角度來看就是就不一定是透過當中都能夠獲利對不對風險管理的角度"},{"start":16287.885,"end":16315.135,"text":"對 再來就是說其實這個當中量多以後呢其實也有助於避險但是它還有一些另外的考量可能是從租稅公平的角度來看這當然是很多元啦站在我們是一個金融主管機關的角度我們比較在意是市場的效率性還有就是一些對於整個市場的壯大與健全發展來看 謝謝那請問一下那個局長那個現在每日的股市交易量是多少"},{"start":16316.181,"end":16322.386,"text":"現在每日大概4000多億當沖佔多少當沖大概佔38%的比重那如果佔38%的比重未來你們是不是要考慮把當沖降稅延期我們目前公定會的意見大家的共識是建議延期5年"},{"start":16344.707,"end":16354.24,"text":"那既然延期其實已經從2017年開始了嘛是不是那已經一延再延你們會把就是當沖降稅變成常態化嗎"},{"start":16356.676,"end":16380.648,"text":"因為稅制支出報告的需要我們必須定期來檢討所以不會說變成常態化的概念所以你們沒有辦法變成常態化這個是稅制的要求在財政部這邊的規範那如果就是主委剛才講到的就是說有這麼多的就是說對於交易量的活絡或者是避險上面這樣子等等的影響那為什麼不常態化"},{"start":16382.675,"end":16392.706,"text":"剛才有講在制度上我們覺得是維持市場的流通性這是有必要性但是在稅務的部分他們有一個報告的限制期間"},{"start":16394.042,"end":16414.623,"text":"所以是因為稅制的關係所以沒有辦法常態化所以你們目前還是朝向延長這樣子的角度來看是不是主委我想要請教一下其實從過去以來大家都說監理跟發展要並進我看到你說的是安全跟發展"},{"start":16416.405,"end":16424.824,"text":"可是我看了一下你的項目那請問你認為你發展的重大的政策未來會有哪些"},{"start":16426.255,"end":16452.57,"text":"發展大概就是幫市場找機會幫我們的金融消費者找到他理想的金融服務然後這樣達到共榮的地步那安全是要讓我們所有的每一筆的金融交易都能夠非常的安全穩定這兩個是其實是可以齊頭並進對 因為我看到你的就是說你們的報告裡面其實比較多的在強調安全的部分"},{"start":16452.95,"end":16480.655,"text":"那是本來就是金融市場的安定是一個最基礎的部分我看到你們可是我比較少看到就在發展的部分所以我才想要了解說你們發展的部分就如同剛才有委員提到了就是說是不是我們的銀行賬戶就是不用經過審核就可以發支票可是其實我們知道說以數位金融發展的角度而言我們現在"},{"start":16481.355,"end":16510.151,"text":"幾乎不會用到支票啊是不是那如果是這樣子的時候那我們就增加了就是說反而增加了一個就是好像阻礙發展的一個步驟是現在就是陳副委員指示的就是說比如說剛才講發展的面向其實蠻多比如說我們剛提到在我們發展領域有一個就是我們要促進金融科技的應用這個部分就是讓我們整個經營效率化"},{"start":16510.871,"end":16534.447,"text":"那就可以把整個的成果可以回饋到我們市場來這是一個然後也降低成本那像比如說剛才講我們去發展臺灣的比如說成為一個資產管理中心讓商品多元化讓更多的資產能夠留在臺灣然後有更多的金融商機也是一個發展的方向那就關於你的金融科技的發展那時程呢"},{"start":16535.774,"end":16563.365,"text":"我們現在眼前馬上可以來做的就是其實我們現在促進臺灣的金融發展有兩大的工具一個是監理沙盒監理沙盒牽涉到法律這個複雜度比較高那我們會來可能是這個修法的進程可能會晚一點但是我們眼前馬上可以做的就是我們針對金管會現在大宗就是金融業務的事辦這個部分我們把它擴大範圍我們預計這樣會增加蠻多蠻多的事辦的空間以及未來的應用那什麼時候開始我覺得我們會盡快來做這件事"},{"start":16565.145,"end":16588.781,"text":"儘快沒有確切的時程至少這個應該是我覺得在這個下一季或至少半年內各位可以看到有一些內容出來那還有其他的部分嗎當然這個部分還有很多其實重點是我們金融科技還牽涉到很多法規的鬆綁因為我們既然這個部分已經實驗可行以後我們就要開始檢討法規鬆綁還是那安全跟發展兩個要兼顧"},{"start":16591.041,"end":16608.568,"text":"所以法規的鬆綁是下一步那預計什麼時候?法規的鬆綁是持續性的要做的一件事情就是我們要與時俱進對,那什麼時候會開始進行?法規鬆綁我們應該是從現在即日起就要開始做了所以現在就要開始做法對,那是個常態化的做法所以什麼時候會送行政院了嗎?"},{"start":16609.922,"end":16632.787,"text":"那個可能不需要,我們內部來形成一個文化形成一個程序就可以來持續的與時俱進我們的法令好,謝謝我們謝謝,謝謝鳳委員接著我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉,蘇清泉不在徐欣盈委員徐欣盈,徐欣盈不在羅明才委員謝謝"},{"start":16639.002,"end":16644.704,"text":"主席、各位委員、初列席、官員大家好主席、各位委員請捧諸位請捧諸位,謝謝盧委員你好帶著開心的心情來到財委會我們財委會也是熱誠的歡迎因為這個地方是一個討論事情大家就是認識開開心心的地方雖然是如此"},{"start":16668.885,"end":16694.505,"text":"但是提醒諸位其實一般來來這邊蜜月期大概我們都是給一個月本來很多委員都是磨刀霍霍說新來的要讓你知道一下什麼是立法院但是我覺得這樣是不對的方法特別你也是教授出身而且家庭也是和樂融融"},{"start":16696.701,"end":16724.384,"text":"然後外界我一些朋友直接間接認識你也很多大概都講你好話比較多講壞話還沒聽過所以我希望說你如果說過去的好要持續的努力下去面對那麼重要的事情銀行、證券、保險在三個金融的範疇裡面"},{"start":16726.133,"end":16752.403,"text":"過去的主委我們也感謝他真的是電力的一個很深厚的基礎比如說銀行的預放比現在是多少可能是不到零點幾了吧零點一三零點一三這個數字很漂亮跟健檢一樣股市現在幾點了兩萬一千今天沒看兩萬一千五百兩萬一千五百對"},{"start":16753.919,"end":16762.669,"text":"那因為之前是臺灣今天是龍年嘛剛好臺灣一個是龍年一隻龍另外還有一隻龍叫楊金龍兩隻龍啊就飛龍在天股市漲到兩萬點"},{"start":16769.42,"end":16797.858,"text":"所以第二個問題要問你說那主委你在啦齁如果你能把這個整個環境國際的這個大變動就不要講了齁你如果站穩兩萬點齁這持續大概一個月左右大概下個月齁本席啊就跟上一次突破一萬點一樣我就請你吃雞排跟喝珍奶"},{"start":16800.188,"end":16825.343,"text":"有沒有信心可以穩定發展我想剛剛有委員提過我對我們是很有信心但是就是說因為股市我們站在是一個金融監理機關我們在意是制度面的健全那股市漲跌本來就會有一定的影響那我們當然希望它很平穩也很健全因為我這裡的報告裡面其實大家都對你有一些期待"},{"start":16827.049,"end":16851.195,"text":"就是說你在的時候看到你的報告都是主張是比較開放的跟國際接軌成為整個亞太中心的金融財管中心理財中心這一類的我們都是寄予厚望希望你是第三隻龍龍年的一個龍楊金龍你是彭金龍"},{"start":16852.99,"end":16871.671,"text":"希望你認真做讓股市大家可以看到三萬點的榮景有沒有信心我對我們都很有信心加油三萬點到的時候我就不是那個雞排跟珍奶"},{"start":16872.898,"end":16898.607,"text":"要比較精彩一點我再想一下三萬點快到的時候我再來想但這是一種期許啦其實過好的生活大家安居樂業對都是很開心的啦股市漲大家多鼓勵來投資也是非常好的比如說今天我們看到台積電已經破歷史新高漲到860塊主委你有沒有投資啊"},{"start":16901.949,"end":16924.884,"text":"我都買基金買基金啊你沒有買到台積電基金裡面應該有它的成分恭喜喔那就是水上船高啦沒有關係我們希望說理財成為未來金管會因為金管會周邊的單位都很有錢所以你知道今天來裡面最有錢的是誰哪個單位"},{"start":16931.093,"end":16957.714,"text":"臺灣證券交易所你知道他去年的EPS多少錢大概七八塊今年我預估因為林董他也是很厲害的很會賺錢的今年大概應該也跑不掉所以我們希望說主委你要多認識周邊的這些單位怎麼樣來提供更多的服務來幫助民眾"},{"start":16958.971,"end":16982.859,"text":"打詐也好或者是做一些救助也好據我所知我們臺灣證券交易所也做很多公益事項啊對不對今天坐在這邊都是團隊啊都團隊所以我們希望賺的錢不要為富不仁多多參與社會關懷社會的發展走入校區不要讓"},{"start":16984.048,"end":17012.237,"text":"小白在森林中迷路不要讓小白在大海之中航海的時候落水多多讓他們一些健康的理財觀念那第三個就是有關銀行的方面銀行大概在臺灣過去的這個發展就是穩定因為他的預放現在也很低"},{"start":17013.8,"end":17034.232,"text":"但是我們看到全世界包括新加坡也好英國也好很多的金融發展它不得了衍生性的金融商品推出也非常非常多所以我想請教一下主委有關虛擬貨幣的推動虛擬貨幣到底是什麼是不是錢"},{"start":17043.117,"end":17071.178,"text":"其實在不管學理事務上都蠻多的爭議那這個部分確實在定義上可能沒辦法現在有一個馬上的不過它確實現在就已經變成非常普遍的一個投資甚至是一個交易的媒介工具對 這個很貼近所以我們不要去迴避本席在這個地方曾經在比特幣大概六千多塊的時候我建請中央銀行可以多少買一點"},{"start":17072.639,"end":17100.382,"text":"就你猜猜看央行有沒有接受我的建議沒有接受我的建議所以當今天比特幣現在漲到7萬塊美金的時候我不知道他心裡會做何感想講這句話很簡單但是對於所有年輕人因為老恐恐的不懂比特幣嘛"},{"start":17101.434,"end":17118.018,"text":"所以他第一個心態就是不要不要拒絕你去問那個80歲以上的70歲以上那些都會被騙了可是詐騙的結果是虛擬貨幣去詐騙人呢還是人利用虛擬貨幣去詐騙人這個意思你理解吧所以你想想看"},{"start":17126.188,"end":17146.488,"text":"當初如果有一個很好的專法來管理這些虛擬貨幣主委你知道我跟你講現在台灣所以賺很多錢的就是這些年輕人因為沒有好的管理方式大家都亂竄大家不正面去面對他我們發現"},{"start":17148.22,"end":17165.159,"text":"當美國要接受了香港也即將要接受了歐洲到處新加坡都已經這個司空漸寬的一個虛擬貨幣的時候我們是不是應該來思考新主委的上任應該要趕快積極地跟上腳步主委你認同嗎"},{"start":17168.027,"end":17190.536,"text":"我們在未來在整個金融科技發展的時候我想區塊鏈跟數位貨幣都是未來一個很重要的區塊啦我們會持續來關注這一題希望多加油啦是 謝謝那另外一個其實就是建立一個思維跟扶持這個金融產業的一個內心的心理想法"},{"start":17192.79,"end":17202.305,"text":"所以你是贊成處罰多一點還是用以鼓勵來代替苛責的方式讓青農業持續的蓬勃發展"},{"start":17202.891,"end":17228.729,"text":"我是覺得在金融監理有一個非常重要就是依法辦理這個是一個最基本也最沒爭議的一個方法但是我剛才講監理這是要有非常明確的一個界限但是我們市場的發展這是一個還是要做的我覺得這兩件事情還是都非常重要好 謝謝我希望你盡量可以大刀闊斧高刺斬飛"},{"start":17230.615,"end":17257.15,"text":"其實上一次主委不錯但是大家覺得他就是比較保守一點過去金融的財閥10年前是很少結果慢慢增加去年的預算是多少去年幾億大概有4億多每一家公司的覺得奇怪什麼一直被罰被罰款的速度越來越多越來越快當"},{"start":17260.155,"end":17289.478,"text":"處罰越多的時候其實是不利整個金融的蓬勃發展安全當然重要但是你要多一點鼓勵啊你要有方法啊是不是這樣完全同意因為其實金融市場健全不在於處罰啦我們講行其無形嘛處罰不是目的是一個手段我們最終希望都不要有財閥案但是這個需要大家努力好不好看到剛剛講的這些數字啊主委你就放膽去做吧"},{"start":17290.285,"end":17309.493,"text":"把臺灣帶向一個國際的交易金融中心臺灣看能不能取代香港能不能贏上新加坡那有關這個人事制度的問題主委也要費一點心多了解一下是你知道"},{"start":17310.677,"end":17338.824,"text":"保險啊他現在管理啊保險局啊管理的資產規模有多少現在保險的資產應該超過35兆35兆你知道保險局的人員有多少員工人非常少多少應該是一百人左右吧才一百人一百人是我一百四是所有局裡面最少一百年一百人是我三十年前來這邊的時候他就一百人然後政企局啊政企局多少人對"},{"start":17340.32,"end":17356.213,"text":"這幾局多少人這幾局應該兩百兩百三十幾兩百三十幾個進去全部幾乎都是女的不是騎士是男的沒位子坐沙發放在那邊已經破了破破舊舊二十幾年都沒換"},{"start":17357.984,"end":17385.23,"text":"我們國家堂堂一個政企局起碼整個設備或人力制度稍微要調整一下這個愉快的工作環境我們會來持續改善加油一下銀行、證券、保險銀行也一樣啊都是窮窮的啦我希望環境做好一點不然你留財留不住啊舉個例子好了主委你來啦你一個月才領多少錢這還沒去了解"},{"start":17386.84,"end":17408.086,"text":"那你還蠻勇敢的啊當你有一天遇到鄭明忠的時候你問他你就會想說 哇 原來在民間工作真的是又開心 核保有滿滿的想一下 怎麼樣讓大家的這個心智結構跟上合理的時代通膨的來臨"},{"start":17411.684,"end":17441.167,"text":"好的薪水才可以找到好的人才另外那個金融資訊局我建議趕快成立必須要面對這些問題是好 謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝我們羅明財召委股市上萬點主任秘書說不能只請雞排跟那個針最少是隔壁的那個餐券喜來登上萬點一個月接著我們請麥玉珍"},{"start":17442.349,"end":17443.831,"text":"今天登記發言已詢答完畢"},{"start":17462.029,"end":17481.436,"text":"報告及詢答完畢本事會作如下決定報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請監管會一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定委員張家俊所提書面質詢"},{"start":17483.277,"end":17491.14,"text":"列入紀錄刊登公報並請金管會以書面答覆本市會議程已進行完畢如果不在場為補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"},{"start":17513.055,"end":17532.476,"text":"有限公司有限公司有限公司"},{"start":17540.15,"end":17556.638,"text":"有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司"},{"start":17561.46,"end":17563.921,"text":"財政委員會主席財政委員會主席財政委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"152857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d48fcc522847082a388b406ffa24a3d76a1c86c617f6345f202603dcc7e4fc98c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"13:00:26 - 13:07:18","影片長度":"00:06:52","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":412,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:07:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T13:00:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1128,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（13時）我想要請彭主委，還有證期局的張局長。"],["主席：彭主委、張局長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委早，我想請問一下，我們知道說證券交易所的所得稅已經降稅這麼久，就是當初的證券交易稅，降稅這麼久的過程當中到底利是什麼？弊是什麼？當初我們考量到降稅可能有稅損或者是……你們從過去以來這麼長一段時間的評估，那你們認為優點是什麼、缺點是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝，我想當初降稅的這個措施實施到現在確實有些成效出來，比如它交易量擴大以後，流動性增加、價格發現的功能增加、市場的效率性增加，但是它確實也有很多其他的顧慮。另外，因為它交易量增加，稅收增加、手續費增加，但是假設從損益的角度來看，就不一定是透過當中都能夠獲利……"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是從風險管理的角度來看。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。再來，當沖量多以後，其實也有助於避險，另外的考量可能是從租稅公平的角度來看，這當然是很多元，站在一個金融主管機關的角度，我們比較在意的是市場的效率性，還有就是從一些對於整個市場的壯大與健全發展來看。謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問一下局長，現在每日的股市交易量是多少？"],["張局長振山：現在每日大概四千多億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那當沖占多少？"],["張局長振山：當沖大概占38的比重。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果占38的比重，未來你們是不是要考慮把當沖降稅延期？"],["張局長振山：我們目前公聽會的意見、大家的共識是建議延期5年。"],["謝委員衣鳯：既然延期，其實已經從2017年開始了嘛，是不是？已經一延再延，你們會把當沖降稅變成常態化嗎？"],["張局長振山：因為稅式支出報告的需要，我們必須定期來檢討，所以不會說變成常態化的概念。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們沒有辦法變成常態化？"],["張局長振山：這個是稅制的要求，在財政部這邊的規劃是如此。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果照主委剛才講到的，就是說對於交易量的活絡或者是避險上面等等的影響，那為什麼不常態化？"],["張局長振山：剛才有講這個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是稅制上面嘛！"],["張局長振山：在制度上，我們覺得維持市場的流通是有必要性，但是在稅務的部分，他們有一個報告的限制期間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是因為稅制的關係而沒有辦法常態化，你們目前還是朝向延長這樣子的角度來看，是不是？那我想要請教一下主委，其實從過去以來，大家都說監理跟發展要並進，我看到你說的是安全跟發展嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我看了一下你的項目，請問，你認為你發展的重大政策未來會有哪一些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：發展大概就是幫市場找機會、幫我們的金融消費者找到他理想的金融服務，然後達到共融的地步。那安全則是要讓我們所有每一筆的金融交易都能夠非常的安全、穩定，這兩個其實是可以齊頭並進的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為我看到你們的報告裡面其實比較多是在強調安全的部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：金融市場的安定本來就是一個最基礎的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我有看到。可是我比較少看到就是在發展的部分……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，所以我才想要了解你們發展的部分，就如同剛才有委員提到了我們的銀行帳戶是否可以不用經過審核就能發支票，可是其實我們知道以數位金融發展的角度而言，我們現在幾乎不會用到支票，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果是這樣子的時候，我們好像反而增加了阻礙發展的一個步驟。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，現在就誠如委員指示的，像剛才講發展的面向其實滿多的，比如說剛剛提到在發展裡面有一個就是我們要促進金融科技的應用，這個部分就是讓我們整個經營效率化，就可以把整個的成果回饋到我們市場，這是一個，然後也降低成本。又比如說，剛才講我們去發展臺灣成為一個資產管理中心，讓商品多元化，讓更多的資產能夠留在臺灣，然後有更多的金融商機，也是一個發展的方向。"],["謝委員衣鳯：關於你的金融科技的發展，那時程呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們現在促進臺灣的金融發展有兩大工具，一個是監理沙盒，監理沙盒牽涉到法律，這個複雜度比較高，修法進程可能會晚一點，但是我們眼前馬上可以做的就是，我們針對金管會現在大宗就是金融業務的試辦，這個部分我們把它擴大範圍，預計這樣會增加滿多試辦的空間以及未來的應用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那什麼時候開始？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我們會盡快來做這件事。"],["謝委員衣鳯：盡快？沒有確切的時程？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得在下一季或至少半年內各位應該可以看到有一些內容出來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那還有其他的部分嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這個部分還有很多，重點是金融科技還牽涉到很多法規的鬆綁，因為既然這個部分已經實驗可行，之後就要開始檢討法規鬆綁，安全跟發展兩個還是要兼顧。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以法規的鬆綁是下一步，那預計什麼時候？"],["彭主任委員金隆：法規的鬆綁是持續要做的一件事情，就是我們要與時俱進。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，那什麼時候會開始進行法規鬆綁？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們應該是從現在、即日起就要開始做。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以現在就要開始？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那是一個常態化的作法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候會送行政院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個可能不需要送院，我們內部來形成一個文化、一個程序就可以來持續的與時俱進我們的法令。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","接著我們請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩不在。","請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.25846875,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.95846875,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.16096875,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.19034375,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.810343750000001,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.29909375,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.72096875,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.51409375,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.20534375,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.00596875,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.09096875,"end":61.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.557218750000004,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.979093750000004,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.09596875,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.02346875,"end":77.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.50409375000001,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","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13:34:33","影片長度":"00:13:34","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":814,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:34:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T13:20:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":964,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（13時21分）謝謝召委，有請李部長、小野部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，首先我想給你拍拍手！"],["李部長遠：謝謝、謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：早上我聽到本黨的立委同仁與部長的對話，有一件事讓我非常的感動，我們也知道在許多的藝術項目中，如果能從藝術的本質中得到感動，我想是一件很真實的事情。早上我們有立委同仁向你提到，有關於中正紀念堂，當然有很多件事，但是談到儀隊的部分，你這邊的講法、回應，對這件事情我覺得非常的感動。你說他們是這樣子被挪進挪出的，以他們為主體的考量，確實好像是一種功能化的操作，我很感謝你對這個部分有這樣的思考。不過，應該是宜瑾委員提到的這樣一個想法，讓我突然間也有了一個想法及建議，你也可以聽聽看。當然我覺得我們可以問儀隊要不要……過去這段時間的儀隊操作，他們可能沒有那麼多時間去想我們討論的議題，但如果不是宜瑾委員提問，我也沒有特別注意到這裡面的儀隊，因為我們以前只注意到國父紀念館或是忠烈祠。就如同你講的，因為它在戶外空間的這段時間，在生活經驗上，對你來講是很特別的，所以我覺得你的講法也很不錯，但我覺得宜瑾委員提到的思考，或許您在作法上可以試試看、想想看。這是我今天早上聽到非常感動的一件事，不過我覺得大家的論述及想法都值得來討論，所以就實際的情形而言，如果這個儀隊覺得在戶外及室內，我想會有不同的文化展現，但是這就要看整個部裡的操作。不過你也提到不希望形式變成文化，可是某些形式確實就會變成文化，不過這個部分我們可以就文化的內涵來做思考。","其實我們對你都非常的期待，因為你確實是有專業內容的一位部長，如果能有文化部的同仁一起來努力，應該是會達到很不錯的成果，而我也期待在文化部的定位上以及未來的事務推動上可以有個蛻變。也很感謝昨天徐次長代替你來向我做一個拜會，沒有機會與他講到話，我在這裡有一些想法要與你溝通。關於你的業務報告，部裡的同仁確實是有做一個整理，難怪他們會給你拍手，我相信他們應該是與你有一些對話，然後做了一些整理，把過往的一些業務確實依照你提的幾個點做了一些呈現，比較可惜的是第三、四點的部分沒機會講得太多，我很期待能夠再繼續聽。","剛剛你說很期待一個人的思想文化能夠被呈現，我相信每個人都是靈魂的個體，很多靈魂的個體或許會造就一個時代、會造就一些趨勢，如果文化部就像你講的是一個藝術文化創作者的平台，我相信應該會是文化部未來非常好的一個定位。我們在媒體上看到你提及對於文化部未來的做法及想法，但是過去的文化部一直讓我們感覺到，而且監察院這邊也有提到，好像就是壟斷、浪費、佔地為王的小圈圈。這幾年很多人的感覺都有點像政治文化的一個，我不要說是操作，就是我們每個人都對自己成長的經驗期待分享給別人，但是如果分享得比較讓別人有壓力的話，確實也不是大家之福。","政治是眾人之事，兩個人或幾個人就會產生一些政治行為，所以一群人可能就會影響到很多人的生活文化，我想我們的政治文化已經在這幾天揚名國際，我也不用多說了。剛才很多委員在這邊質詢，政治文化不見得是你未來的重點，就我們是藝術人的內容專業上，我們都期待可以讓我們個體的靈魂有所展現，讓我們有一點能夠自我發展的空間，我們也不要擠壓別人的想法及思考，但是如你所講的，可以有一些對話，而這個對話不是只有講話，我們不是在法理上爭得贏就好，如果是這樣，藝術文化就沒有存在的必要了，所以我們應該聆聽各種藝術文化的心聲。","你提到文化部不是公務部門只把錢分配完而已，而是希望能成為一個鼓吹者，鼓吹文化藝術、幫助文化人解決問題，這個角色非常的重要。你是來自於民間，而我與你的脈絡應該也蠻相似，所以你覺得文化部應該只是一個指導單位，很多商演的活動，過去你們的主管常常就自己擔任創意總監，但我相信你的風格是完全不一樣的，因為你在影視領域中有非常多的過往，又是電影新潮流很重要的鼓吹者。剛才你也講到不太認同短影音，我非常認同你的這件事，因為我曾經看過一部電影，嚇了一跳，這是某個城市的電影節，進入電影院時應該是晚上7點，出來時已經是12點多，我在看的時候覺得時間好像有一點點長，但是我竟然坐在裡面把它看完了，出來時發現已經是清晨了。那就是Lars von Trie的Dogme 95，一位經典的創作者，這部片子叫「醫院風雲」，希望有機會能與你在這邊做個討論，如果有機會的話。這個是content的部分，所以我也期待、也相信，未來你應該不會只是一個歌功頌德的主管，我們期待你在未來有很多的作為。","我們講到各個年齡世代，剛剛也有委員說我們希望在文化上有一些出口，但是這個出口如果擠壓到不同的世代，我想不管你是年輕人、不管你是壯世代，你都會希望吶喊，所以在這個部分期待你可以做到世代的交流，而不是世代的對立。關於原住民的部分，剛才你對於外省人也有一些看法，我對這個詞或許不太認同，也有一些想法，你的想法與我還蠻接近的，就時間上來講，因為來的時間不一樣，血緣上可能也有一些不同。只是有一點在之後可能要向你請教或是你今天可以回應，你說希望在歷史文化上能更重視，我想請教你的歷史文化是包含了臺灣的史前或是臺灣的歷史？"],["李部長遠：我的歷史觀非常簡單，曾經發生在這個島上的所有東西都是我們的歷史，而且不應該互相排斥。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。我相信在原住民的部分，剛才有好多位委員都這樣講了，我也自我介紹一下，我是國民黨不分區的委員林倩綺，我本身也具有原住民的血緣，我是阿美族的原住民。","有幾件事要向你提出建議，也請部裡一起做個處理。第一個，文化奧運，上次王次長有回應我，在文化奧運裡有一些原住民團體，同樣的，原住民團體找了很多年輕的、特殊的大眾文化團體，也有一些比較傳統的，事實上，各位不要小看全世界的人在看藝術文化這件事情，他們可以從傳統文化裡找到很多藝術的精髓，像旮亙這樣的傳統樂團，我想你們也可以考量一下。","再者，我幫柯志恩委員講一下，他說剛剛沒有問你內容，只有問你標案，在行政上，可能有一個標案你們可以討論一下，剛才我們談到很多限制性招標在藝術文化上常用，但是有一個標案，也就是處理大家的住宿及旅遊，我相信這個部分有很多人可以做到，但是這個你們也用了限制性招標。","第三個，剛才聽到水下考古的業務，不好意思，本人是你們剛開始做水下考古訓練的受訓成員，但是你們當時開出來的條件，我們也不知道文化界中有幾個人具備。我是因為正好有潛水執照，又在文化界做事，然後我就去參與這個活動，受訓完之後我才發現你們大概有兩個系統，大概中國的你們也用了一些，因為有很多沈船，我在學潛水時老師要我勾選最喜歡哪一項，我就勾了沈船的挖寶。我不知道水下考古在這幾年的狀況是如何，但第一是條件太嚴苛了，你要文化人如何去做這些事？你可以讓他參與再教他潛水，而你要他有潛水的資格，然後……這個可以考量一下。","關於兒童未來館，剛才蘇巧慧委員提到，本席從民國九十幾年就找到那個區塊去擔任委員，等到擔任新北市文化局長的時候，還在講那一塊，當時是大都會劇院，現在又變成兒童館了，不管你們的定位是什麼，可不可以把它做好？把它做好。再來是校外教學的文化體驗，剛才部裡也說希望在偏鄉的部分能夠實踐，我要在這邊提醒，原住民的55個原鄉，請放在比較首要的順位，真的偏鄉、遠鄉，部裡可能要注意位在臺南的楠西或嘉義的內埔，這些真的是很遠，雖然現在很多地方都稱為市或縣，但我很期待在文化體驗上能夠好好的排好。至於族群文化的部分，剛剛你的回應也很好，我只請你在史前與歷史的部分做一個確認，因為本席經常去走動，就與你一樣，很高興你也是千里步道的發起人，而本席也是在國外走了幾千里，正好之前在院的質詢上我也提出了臺灣長步道的政策，我想我們可以就這個部分好好地有一些對話。","最後，我想我們的政治文化可以引起很多的思考，剛才有一些委員也提到，大家都用非常簡單的講法，像是對立啊！一堆這種很簡單的詞語，但是就像1%的人影響了很大一部分的文化，所以我的最後一句話就是，每個人都是獨特的個體，擁有獨特靈魂，我們做公共事務要尊重每個人用他不同的方式來表達，但是我們不應該把別人抓進我們自己要表達的方式，它會成為另外一種狀況，一句話，不要用自卑來成就自信，也不要用暴力來達到自立。","最後我們引用文化學者李亦園的論述，對自然的恐懼產生了物質文化、對他人的恐懼產生了社會文化、對自己的恐懼產生了精神文化，我相信我們的政治文化讓我們看到了這一些，那我們在怕什麼？有些東西留下，我們在怕什麼？你可以接受很多人的詮釋，是吧？我們不一定只要用語言或最低道德標準的法律來談所有的文化現象，謝謝部長。我用阿美族的一句話：加油！Saicelen！"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，部長請回。","請何欣純委員，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請黃珊珊委員，黃珊珊委員、黃珊珊委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另有委員陳冠廷、林楚茵提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.56534375,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.919093750000002,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.53034375,"end":20.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.00221875,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.980968750000002,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.17909375,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.039718750000006,"end":68.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.11721875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.56221875,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.91534375,"end":134.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.71034375000002,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.58346875,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.80284375000002,"end":204.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.19721875000002,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.66534375,"end":276.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.06784375,"end":383.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.68409375000005,"end":426.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.33971875000003,"end":438.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.21971875,"end":453.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.12034375,"end":454.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.20034375,"end":456.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.95971875000004,"end":456.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.37721875000005,"end":457.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.73159375,"end":495.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.10096875000005,"end":505.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.48784375,"end":536.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.6728437500001,"end":727.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.0522187500001,"end":749.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.0065937500001,"end":751.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.23409375,"end":752.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.47034375,"end":764.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.00409375,"end":767.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.05846875,"end":769.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.16784375,"end":771.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.2309687500001,"end":774.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.23471875,"end":777.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.39034375,"end":779.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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Dogma95的一個經典的那個創作者那這部片子叫音樂風雲有機會希望能夠跟您在這邊再做個討論如果有機會的話那這個是content的部分"},{"start":427.704,"end":455.942,"text":"所以我也期待您未來不是只有我相信應該不會只是一個歌功頌德的主管我們期待您在未來有很多的作為這樣來講我們講各個年齡世代我剛才也有委員講到說我們希望在文化上有一些出口但是這個出口如果擠壓到不同的世代我想不管你是年輕人不管你是壯世代你都會希望吶喊所以不好意思好大聲"},{"start":457.963,"end":482.61,"text":"所以在這個部分期待您可以做到世代的一個交流而不是世代的對立剛才也有我這邊提到那尤志明的部分跟剛才很多您對外省人也有一些看法但是這個詞我或許不太認同但是我也有一些想法但是你的想法跟我還蠻接近的就時間上來講那來的時間上不一樣那選項上可能也有一些不同只是有一點有可能要"},{"start":483.65,"end":495.496,"text":"之後想要跟您請教或是您今天可以回應喔您都希望在歷史文化上能夠有一些更重視那我想請教一下那您的歷史文化包含了史前還是台灣的史前還是台灣的歷史"},{"start":497.133,"end":517.162,"text":"我的歷史觀非常簡單曾經發生在這個島上的所有東西都是我們的歷史而且不應該互相排斥好的 謝謝那我相信在原住民的這個部分剛才好多個委員都這樣講了那我自我介紹一下我是國民黨部分區的委員林倩綺那麼我本身也具有原住民的血緣我是原住民阿美族的"},{"start":517.842,"end":536.077,"text":"好所以在幾件事情我這邊來跟您做一個建議然後也請部裡面一起做一個處理第一個文化奧運那上次次長這邊王次長這邊有回應我就是在文化奧運裡面有一些原住民的團體同樣的原住民的團體大家找了很多年輕的特殊的"},{"start":536.698,"end":553.268,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":553.548,"end":580.281,"text":"第624我這邊幫剛才克森委員這邊講一下他剛才問您的這個部分是他說他沒有問您內容他要問您標案那在行政上那這個標案你們可能有一個標案可以去討論一下就是說在剛才我們談到很多限制性招標在藝術文化上常常用但是有一個標案也就是去處理大家的住宿跟旅遊我相信這個部分有很多人是可以做的但是這個你們也用限制性招標"},{"start":581.201,"end":609.515,"text":"第3個剛才聽到業務水下考古不好意思本人是你們剛開始做水下考古訓練的這個受訓的成員但是你們當時開出來的條件我也不知道文化界有幾個人可以有我是因為正好有這個潛水執照然後又在文化界有做事然後我就去參與這個活動然後受訓完之後才發現你們大概有兩個系統然後大概中國的你們用了一些因為很多沉船那我在學潛水的時候老師叫我勾最喜歡哪一項我就勾沉船的挖寶"},{"start":610.996,"end":611.316,"text":"剛才蘇巧衛委員這邊有提了齁"},{"start":630.935,"end":636.478,"text":"本席從民國90幾年就找到那一個區塊去當委員然後得到當新北市文化局長的時候還在講那一塊當時是大都會劇院到現在又變成兒童館了不管你們的地位是什麼可不可以把它做好了"},{"start":651.127,"end":660.719,"text":"然後再來呢那個校外教學的一個文化體驗那剛才您這邊布林葉也說希望在偏鄉的部分能夠去實踐那我這邊提醒原住民的55個原鄉請在比較首要的順位"},{"start":666.886,"end":685.359,"text":"好,那真的偏鄉啊,遠鄉,那當然是部裡面可能要注意一下什麼台南的南西啊,或者是嘉義的那個內湖啊,這些真的是很遠的,聽起來雖然現在很多地方都叫做市或縣,但是這確實是大家在,我們在這個文化體驗上我很期待能夠好好的排好。"},{"start":686.4,"end":713.61,"text":"那這個族群文化的這個部分剛才您的回應也很好那我只請您在史前跟歷史的部分做一個確認那本席因為經常去走動就跟你一樣那個很高興你也是千里步道的這個發起人本席也實在是在國外走了幾千里那正好之前在院的一個諮詢上我也提出了台灣長步道的一個政策那我想我們很可以來對這個部分就這個部分來好好的有一些對話"},{"start":715.09,"end":736.405,"text":"最後呢我想我們的政治文化可以引起我們很多的思考那剛才這個有些委員也提到那大家都用非常簡單的這個講法說對立啊什麼一堆這種很簡單的這個詞語但是呢就像1%的人影響了很大一部分的文化所以我最後一句話就是每個人都是獨特的個體擁有獨特的靈魂"},{"start":738.827,"end":767.568,"text":"我們做公共事務的是尊重每個人來用他不同的方式來表達但是我們不應該把別人抓進我們自己要表達的方式那他會成為另外一種狀況一句話就是不要用自卑來成就自信然後也不要用暴力來達到自利那最後我們用這個文化學者李益元的一個論述李益元不好意思李益元的學者往下最後一張"},{"start":769.313,"end":789.183,"text":"對,文化學者你沒有寫齁好,那沒有關係就是對自然的恐懼我們產生了物質文化對社會的恐懼對他人的恐懼我們產生了社會文化對自己的恐懼產生了精神文化那我相信我們的政治文化讓我們看到了這一些那我們在怕什麼有些東西留下來我們在怕什麼你可以接受很多人的詮釋是吧我們不一定只要用語言"},{"start":798.965,"end":804.453,"text":"for最低道德標準的法律來談所有的文化現象謝謝部長我用阿美族一句話加油"}]}},{"id":"152855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dd944f84f6ffa5eef88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20176988791c7ba79bef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"13:07:42 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13:20:52","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":790,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:20:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T13:07:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1181,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（13時7分）主席、各位委員、各位出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請彭主委？"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["羅委員明才：主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主委帶著開心的心情來到財委會，那我們財委會也是熱忱的歡迎，因為這個地方是一個討論事情、然後大家就事論事、也開開心心的地方。雖然是如此，但是也提醒主委，其實一般你們來這邊的蜜月期，我們大概都是給一個月，本來很多委員都是磨刀霍霍，說要讓新來的知道一下什麼是立法院，但是我覺得這樣是不對的方法，特別你也是教授出身，而且家庭也是和樂融融，然後外界我一些朋友直接、間接認識你的也很多，大概都講你好話的比較多，講壞話的倒還沒聽過，所以我希望說過去的好，你要持續的努力下去。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，一定。"],["羅委員明才：面對那麼重要的事情，銀行、證券、保險這三個金融的範疇裡面，對於過去的主委，我們也感謝他真的是奠定了一個很深厚的基礎，譬如說銀行的逾放比現在是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可能是零點幾了，0.13%。"],["羅委員明才：0.13%這個數字很漂亮，跟健檢一樣。股市現在幾點了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：21,000點，今天沒看。21,500點。"],["羅委員明才：21,500點。今年是龍年，剛好臺灣是龍年，這是一隻龍，另外還有一隻龍叫楊金龍，兩隻龍就飛龍在天，股市漲到兩萬點，所以第二個問題就要問你，整個大環境、國際的大變動就先不要講了，如果主委你能把站穩兩萬點持續大概一個月左右，大概在下個月，就跟上一次突破一萬點一樣，我就請你吃雞排跟喝珍奶，有沒有信心可以穩定發展？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛剛也有委員提過，我對我們是很有信心，但是因為對於股市，站在一個金融監理機關的角度，我們在意的是制度面的健全，股市漲跌本來就會有一定的影響，那我們當然希望它很平穩、也很健全。"],["羅委員明才：對，其實大家都對你有一些期待，因為我在你的報告裡面，看到你都是主張是比較開放的、跟國際接軌、成為整個亞太中心的金融財管中心、理財中心這一類的，我們都是寄予厚望，希望你是第三隻龍，龍年一個龍、楊金龍、你是彭金隆（龍），希望你認真做，讓大家可以看到股市三萬點的榮景，有沒有信心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我對我們都很有信心。"],["羅委員明才：都有信心？好，加油。三萬點到的時候，我就不是請雞排跟珍奶了，要比較精彩一點，我再想一下，三萬點快到的時候我再想，但就是一種期許。其實過好的生活、大家安居樂業都是很開心的，股市漲，大家多鼓勵來投資也是非常好的。比如說今天我們看到台積電已經破歷史新高，漲到860塊，主委，你有沒有投資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我都買基金。"],["羅委員明才：買基金？你有沒有買到台積電？"],["彭主任委員金隆：基金裡面應該有它的成分。"],["羅委員明才：恭喜，那就是水漲船高。沒有關係，我們希望說理財成為未來金管會……因為金管會周邊的單位都很有錢，主委，你知道今天出席者裡面最有錢的是哪個單位？臺灣證券交易所，你知道它去年的EPS多少錢？大概7、8塊，今年我預估，因為林董也是很厲害、很會賺錢，今年應該也跑不掉，所以我們希望主委要多認識周邊的這些單位，怎麼樣提供更多的服務來幫助民眾，打詐也好或者是做一些救助也好，據我所知，我們臺灣證券交易所也做很多公益事項，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：今天坐在這邊的都是團隊。"],["羅委員明才：都是團隊，所以我們希望你們賺的錢不要為富不仁，多多參與社會、關懷社會的發展，走入校區，不要讓小白在森林中迷路，不要讓小白在航海的時候落水，多多讓他們有一些健康的理財觀念。","第三個就是有關銀行方面，在臺灣過去的發展大概就是穩定，因為它逾放比現在也很低，但是我們看到全世界包括新加坡也好、英國也好，很多的金融發展不得了，推出的衍生性金融商品非常非常多，所以我想請教一下主委，有關虛擬貨幣的推動，虛擬貨幣到底是什麼？是不是錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這個在不論學理或實務上都有滿多的爭議，這個部分確實在定義上現在可能沒辦法馬上有一個……不過它現在確實已經變成非常普遍的一個投資，甚至是一個交易的媒介工具。"],["羅委員明才：對，這個很貼近，所以我們不要去迴避，在比特幣大概六千多塊的時候，本席曾經在這個地方建請中央銀行可以多少買一點，結果你猜猜看央行有沒有接受我的建議？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員明才：沒有接受我的建議，所以當今天比特幣漲到七萬塊美金的時候，我不知道他心裡會做何感想。因為上年紀的不懂比特幣，所以他第一個心態就是不要、不要、拒絕，你去問那些八十歲以上、七十歲以上的，他一定說：那都會騙人。可是，詐騙的結果是虛擬貨幣去詐騙人呢？還是人利用虛擬貨幣去詐騙人？這個意思你理解吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：理解。"],["羅委員明才：所以你想想看，當初如果有一個很好的專法來管理這些虛擬貨幣，主委，現在臺灣賺很多錢的就是這些年輕人，因為沒有好的管理方式，大家都亂竄、大家不正面去面對它，我們發現當美國要接受了、香港也即將接受了，歐洲到處、新加坡都已經司空見慣的一個虛擬貨幣的時候，我們是不是應該來思考，新主委上任後應該要趕快、積極的跟上腳步？主委你認同嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來在整個金融科技發展的時候，我想區塊鏈跟數位貨幣都是未來一個很重要的區塊，我們會持續來關注這個議題。"],["羅委員明才：希望多加油。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：另外一個，其實就是監理這一個思維跟扶持金融產業的一個內心的想法，主委，你是贊成處罰多一點還是以鼓勵來代替苛責的方式讓金融業持續的蓬勃發展？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是覺得在金融監理有一個非常重要的就是依法辦理，這個是最基本也最沒爭議的一個方法。但是我剛才也講過，監理是要有非常明確的一個界線，但是我們市場的發展還是要做的，我覺得這兩件事情還是都非常重要。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝，我希望你可以大刀闊斧、展翅高飛，其實上一次的主委不錯，但是大家覺得他就是比較保守一點，過去金融的裁罰，10年前是很少，結果慢慢增加，去年的預算是多少？大概有四億多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：每一家公司都覺得奇怪，怎麼一直被罰？被罰款的速度越來越多、越來越快，當處罰越多的時候，其實是不利整個金融的蓬勃發展，安全當然重要，但也要多一點鼓勵，要有方法，是不是這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：完全同意。因為其實金融市場的健全不在於處罰，我們講刑期無刑，處罰不是目的，而是一個手段，我們最終希望都不要有裁罰案，但是這個需要大家努力。"],["羅委員明才：好吧，看到剛剛講的這些數字，主委，你就放膽去做吧！把臺灣帶向一個國際的金融交易中心，看看臺灣能不能取代香港、能不能迎上新加坡。","有關人事制度的問題，主委也要費一點心，多了解一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["羅委員明才：你知道保險局目前管理的資產規模有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在保險的資產應該超過35兆。"],["羅委員明才：35兆，你知道保險局的員工有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：人非常少。"],["羅委員明才：編制多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是100人左右吧。"],["羅委員明才：才100人！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是所有局裡面最少的。"],["羅委員明才：我30年前來這邊的時候，它就是100人。然後，證期局是多少人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：證期局應該是兩百三十幾人。"],["羅委員明才：兩百三十幾人？進去的全部幾乎都是女性，不是歧視，是男的沒位子坐，沙發放在那邊已經破破舊舊的，二十幾年都沒換，堂堂我們國家一個證期局，起碼整個設備或人力制度稍微要調整一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個愉快的工作環境方面，我們會來持續改善。"],["羅委員明才：加油一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：銀行、證券、保險，銀行也一樣，都是舊舊、窮窮的，我希望環境做好一點，不然你留才留不住啊！舉個例子好了，主委你來，你一個月才領多少錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這還沒去瞭解。"],["羅委員明才：那你還蠻勇敢的，當你有一天遇到曾銘宗的時候，你問他，你就會想說：哇，原來在民間工作，真的是又開心，荷包又滿滿的。想一下，怎麼樣讓大家的薪資結構跟上合理的時代通膨的來臨，要好的薪水才可以找到好的人才嘛！另外，我建議趕快成立金融資訊局，必須要面對這些問題，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才召委。股市上萬點，主任秘書說不能只請雞排和珍奶，最少是隔壁那個喜來登的餐券。","接著請麥玉珍委員。麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：今天登記發言已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊者，請金管會一週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。委員張嘉郡所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請金管會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEA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這個很貼近所以我們不要去迴避本席在這個地方曾經在比特幣大概六千多塊的時候我建請中央銀行可以多少買一點"},{"start":429.145,"end":456.767,"text":"你猜猜看央行有沒有接受我的建議這我不清楚沒有接受我的建議所以當今天比特幣現在漲到7萬塊美金的時候我不知道他心裡會做何感想講這句話很簡單但是對於所有年輕人因為老口口的不懂比特幣嘛"},{"start":457.816,"end":474.402,"text":"所以他第一個心態就是不要不要拒絕你去問那個80歲以上的70歲以上那些都會被騙可是詐騙的結果是虛擬貨幣去詐騙人呢還是人利用虛擬貨幣去詐騙人這個意思你理解吧所以你想想看"},{"start":482.57,"end":502.867,"text":"當初如果有一個很好的專法來管理這些虛擬貨幣主委你知道我跟你講現在台灣所以賺很多錢的就是這些年輕人因為沒有好的管理方式大家都亂竄大家不正面去面對他我們發現"},{"start":504.583,"end":523.444,"text":"當美國要接受了香港也即將接受了歐洲到處新加坡都已經這個司空漸寬的一個虛擬貨幣的時候我們是不是應該來思考新主委的上任應該要趕快積極地跟上腳步主委你認同嗎"},{"start":524.409,"end":546.915,"text":"我們在未來在整個金融科技發展的時候我想區塊鏈跟數位貨幣都是未來一個很重要的區塊啦我們會持續來關注這一題希望多加油啦那另外一個其實就是建立一個思維跟扶持這個金融產業的一個內心的心理想法"},{"start":549.172,"end":558.668,"text":"所以你是贊成處罰多一點還是用以鼓勵來代替苛責的方式讓青農業持續的蓬勃發展"},{"start":559.273,"end":560.194,"text":"我希望您盡量可以大刀闊斧、高次斬飛"},{"start":586.98,"end":613.532,"text":"其實上一次主委不錯但是大家覺得他就是比較保守一點過去金融的財閥10年前是很少結果慢慢增加去年的預算是多少去年幾億大概有4億多每一家公司的覺得奇怪什麼一直被罰被罰款的速度越來越多越來越快當"},{"start":616.178,"end":616.838,"text":"主委你就放膽去做吧"},{"start":646.67,"end":665.886,"text":"把臺灣帶向一個國際的交易金融中心臺灣看能不能取代香港能不能贏上新加坡那有關這個人事制度的問題主委也要費一點心多了解一下是你知道"},{"start":667.062,"end":695.189,"text":"保險啊他現在管理啊保險局啊管理的資產規模有多少現在保險的資產應該超過35兆35兆你知道保險局的人員有多少員工人非常少應該是百人左右吧才一百人一百人是我一百四是所有局裡面最少一百年一百人是我三十年前來這邊的時候他就一百人然後正期局啊正期局多少人對"},{"start":696.683,"end":712.591,"text":"這幾局多少人?這幾局應該兩百...兩百三十幾兩百三十幾個進去全部幾乎都是女的不是騎士是男的沒位置坐沙發放在那邊已經破了破破舊舊二十幾年都沒換"},{"start":714.366,"end":741.621,"text":"我們國家堂堂一個政期局起碼整個設備或人力制度稍微要調整一下對 這個愉快的工作環境我們會來持續改善加油一下銀行、證券、保險銀行也一樣啊 都是窮窮的啦我希望環境做好一點你留財留不住啊舉個例子好了 主委你來啦你一個月才領多少錢這還沒去了解"},{"start":743.223,"end":764.468,"text":"那你還蠻勇敢的啊當你有一天遇到鄭明忠的時候你問他你就會想說 哇 原來在民間工作真的是又開心 盒包又滿滿的想一下怎麼樣讓大家的這個心智結構跟上合理的時代通膨的來臨"},{"start":768.066,"end":770.728,"text":"謝謝我們羅明才召委股市上萬點主任秘書說不能只清雞排跟珍藍"}]}},{"id":"152854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d39b2e902dc061c976fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017a0e7bbdf4b47cc755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"13:14:48 - 13:20:37","影片長度":"00:05:49","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":349,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:20:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T13:14:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":941,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（13時14分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家午安。是不是有請部長？"],["主席：好，有請林部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長午安，首先恭喜您來擔任我們的文化部長，您是一個創作家，也是相當很多人敬仰的創作家，您在你的作品「蛹之聲」一文提到，蛹之死若是能喚起無數的蛹之聲，那麼蛹之死就有價值了，所以我認為您來接任文化部的部長，一定可以為我們臺灣的文化創新來打拚。","不過要先請部長看一下以下這些圖，這個是520賴總統就職典禮的主視覺的對照，就您這個資深文化人的角度，你會不會覺得這些圖案都很類似，他們的畫風、風格以及它的設計概念跟元素，是不是都很類似？我相信今天有很多的委員請教你，請部長回答一下。"],["李部長遠：這個問題剛才有人問過，如果你問我，我不會這樣做，但是你說他抄襲，抄襲本身是有一個鑑定方式。"],["張委員智倫：是，好，謝謝部長。因為我還沒來不及說抄襲，所以我個人也不一定說認定他是否抄襲，只是說這些畫風都這麼類似，而且很多都是政府的標案，有很多廠商來做政府的標案，是不是讓臺灣真正有在努力來創作的這些創作者能真正來得標，所以我想請教部長的是，最近大家都很關心的，有關於這個臺灣文學館的「阿龍」，臺灣「阿龍」的抄襲事件，請問部長清楚嗎？"],["李部長遠：非常清楚，而且我們已經著手進行調查。"],["張委員智倫：我要跟部長報告的是，因為臺灣，我們現在還是有非常多的廠商需要去做政府的標案，這家廠商叫做蹦世界數位創意有限公司，它是在民國102年創立的，可是它在過去的時間都沒有拿到政府的標案，它直到106年蔡英文政府上台了以後才開始取得政府的標案。我來幫大家統計一下，它在106年的時候，這個標案的金額大家可以看到，可以查到的金額是1,400多萬元，它那時候他的資本額其實才400萬元，然後它在這幾年，從106年到113年，它總共得標金額是7,100多萬元。讓大家最不能接受，是在去年的112年的展覽數位內容的採購案裡面，它一開始就是被認為它有抄襲大陸繪師的創作，可是第一時間喔！這個蕭副館長，他第一時間是否認的，請問他為什麼從否認變成是他後來認為是有抄襲？請部長回答。"],["李部長遠：這個其實我前面已經講過，我覺得臺灣的文化裡面，最不好的一件事就是他不能夠接受失敗，也不能夠接受自己做錯事情，所以第一時間想要去遮蓋它，我覺得這個遮蓋比前面的抄襲還嚴重，這點我在前面已經非常強調過。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，我覺得這樣的行為非常的不可取，針對未來，我希望不要有這樣的事件發生，因為這樣招標案，就本席得知，它是限制型招標，所以就部長而言，它是否有其他的廠商來投標？這是第一個問題。第二個，它為何要用限制型招標？它有什麼一定要去限制的理由嗎？不是最有利標，為什麼要限制型招標？"],["李部長遠：這個問題我很難回答你，因為通常限制型招標一定是這家有能力做的東西，是別人不能做的，才會限制……"],["張委員智倫：對，就是我要問部長的問題，所以它到底要限制什麼東西？因為它過去一直連續得標，而且……"],["李部長遠：好，那我請次長回答好嗎？"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長、謝謝次長。"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，這邊所謂的限制型招標，是相對於我們不是用最低標，所以我們還是一個公開的，讓廠商可以來提案，經過評選，經過委員會的評選之後所選出來的，這邊的限制型招標，並不是我們直接委託蹦世界公司，這跟委員特別做一個說明。"],["張委員智倫：請問有沒有其他廠商投標？"],["李次長靜慧：有，過去幾年裡頭，陸續都……"],["張委員智倫：我是問說在112年展覽數位的內容採購這個專案，限制招標有沒有其他廠商投標？"],["李次長靜慧：112年基本上是從111年的標案做後續擴充，在111年的招標裡面，是由兩家廠商來進場競爭的。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。所以這邊還是要拜託部長的部分，未來像這樣子的事情，我們會擔心用限制型招標，是不是有幫廠商量身訂做的這些問題，還有就是政府單位的部分一定要查清楚，很多類似的創作要如何分辨，到底是很類似或是抄襲的行為，我覺得政府單位在第一時間要先釐清，不應該是以護航為主，而讓政府的公信力喪失。我還是非常相信部長，你是新上任，誠如我剛剛說的蛹之生的這句話，希望部長能為臺灣的文創作一個嶄新的開端，未來如果有任何限制性招標的問題，也儘量可以減少，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員，部長請回。","請吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.46034375,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.29846875,"end":79.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.51221875,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.60034375000001,"end":142.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.21971875,"end":167.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.13534375,"end":185.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.48284375,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.02846875,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.70846875,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.63596875000002,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.79909375000003,"end":246.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.19909375,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.10159375,"end":250.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.67534375000002,"end":256.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.69971875,"end":271.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.89159375,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.01784375,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.75596875,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.33721875000003,"end":293.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.47034375000004,"end":296.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.11534375,"end":345.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.96846875,"end":346.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":348.97221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.465,"end":12.57,"text":"主席好各位官員各位委員大家午安是不是有請部長好有請林部長委員好部長午安首先恭喜你來擔任我們的這個文化部長那您是一個創作家也是相當很多人敬仰的這個創作家那您在你的作品勇之聲藝文有提到勇之死若是能喚起無助的勇士"},{"start":35.407,"end":58.77,"text":"永之生,那麼永之時就有價值了所以我認為說您來接任這個文化部的部長一定可以為我們台灣的文化的創新來做打拼不過要先請部長看一下以下這些圖這個是520賴總統就職典禮的主視覺的對照就您這個資深的文化人的角度你會不會覺得這些的這個圖案都很類似"},{"start":59.411,"end":85.532,"text":"他們的畫風是不是風格以及他的設計概念跟元素是不是都很類似我相信今天有很多的委員有請教你請部長回答一下這個問題剛剛有人問過如果我是來這樣做如果你問我做我不會這樣做但是你說他抄襲抄襲本身是有一個那個鑑定方式是好謝謝部長因為我還沒來不及說抄襲我說我個人也不一定說認定他是否是抄襲"},{"start":86.653,"end":86.833,"text":"請問部長清楚嗎?"},{"start":109.673,"end":109.693,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":126.187,"end":141.383,"text":"一百零二年創立的可是他在過去的時間都沒有拿到政府的標案他只會一到一百零六年蔡英文政府上台了以後才開始取得政府的標案我來跟大家統計一下他在一百零六年的時候的這個標案的金額大家可以看到"},{"start":142.344,"end":158.556,"text":"在可以查到的金額是1400多萬那時候他的資本額其實才400萬然後他在這幾年從106年到113年他總共得標金額是7100多萬那讓大家最不能接受在去年的112年的展覽數位內容的採購案裡面他一開始來下一頁"},{"start":169.175,"end":181.101,"text":"他一開始就是被認為說他有抄襲大陸的會師的創作可是第一時間這個蕭副館長他第一時間是否認的那請問他為什麼從否認變成是他後來認為是有抄襲請部長回答"},{"start":186.79,"end":204.261,"text":"這個其實我前面已經講過我覺得台灣的文化裡面最不好的一件事就是他不能夠接受失敗也不能夠接受自己做錯事情所以第一時間想要去遮蓋它我覺得這個遮蓋比前面的抄襲還嚴重這點我在前面已經非常強調過"},{"start":205.302,"end":229.922,"text":"好 謝謝部長我覺得這樣的行為非常的不可取那我針對未來希望不要有這樣的事件來做發生因為他這樣的招標的招標案就本席得知他是限制型招標所以就部長而言他是否有其他的廠商來去做投標這是第一個問題第二個他為何要用限制型招標他有什麼一定要去限制的理由嗎不是最有利標為什麼要用限制型招標"},{"start":232.84,"end":236.762,"text":"對,這是我要問部長的問題是他到底要限制什麼東西因為他一直過去連續得標而且"},{"start":247.21,"end":272.291,"text":"好那我請市長回答好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝市長跟委員報告這邊所謂的限制型招標是相對於我們不是用最低標所以我們還是一個公開讓廠商可以來提案經過評選經過委員會的評選之後所選出來的這邊的限制型招標並不是我們直接委託蹦世界這跟委員特別做一個說那請問有沒有其他廠商投標"},{"start":273.363,"end":279.108,"text":"有一百一十二年基本上是從一百一十一年的標案做後續擴充那在一百一十一年的招標裡面是有兩家廠商來進場競爭的好謝謝所以這邊部長不好意思"},{"start":297.27,"end":313.897,"text":"所以這邊還是要拜託部長的部分未來像這樣子的事情我們會擔心用限制型燒標是不是有幫廠商量身訂做這些問題還有就是說政府的單位部分一定要查清楚這些很多類似的創作要如何來去做一個"},{"start":314.637,"end":338.315,"text":"一個分辨到底是不是很類似還是抄襲的這樣的行為那政府單位的部分第一時間的時候我覺得要先釐清不應該是以護航為主而讓政府的公信力為去做一個這個政府的公信力會做一個喪失的動作那我還是非常相信部長您的新的上任一定就像您剛剛的這個我剛剛跟大家報告這個永之聖這句話我希望就是部長可以為台灣的文創來做一個嶄新的開端"},{"start":341.417,"end":341.497,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9df22a046179e4ba426fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d20170bb70b5dcafacf595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:06:04 - 13:14:20","影片長度":"00:08:16","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":496,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:14:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T13:06:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好，我們又見面了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，我很開心看到您來掌舵文化部，相信會有新氣象。文化部這幾年一直在標榜著壯大臺灣內容、建立文化自信，我相信提到壯大臺灣的內容，您應該不會否認原住民的文化底蘊是很重要的一個部分對吧！我在這邊是想要跟部長就是聊一下，因為我覺得在政府部門，做這麼多事情的當中，有很多很細微的微血管的部分、末梢的部分，往往是政府不容易掌握到的，可能是基於我們的法規，我在這邊想要跟您提幾個部分，像第一個，您看一下這個圖片，這個是在屏東太武鄉，有一個村叫做佳興村（puljetji），這個村很特別，因為日治時期，當時日本人有在這邊設置一個工藝指導所，因為他們發現部落很多人都很會做木雕。我曾經在這個地方服務過，但是因為這是一個很小的部落，它的學校早就已經分校廢棄了，我是這個本校太武國小的校長，我很努力做一件事，就是讓學校有木雕課程，所以我們辦了一個展，100年的接力賽，100年前的這些先人，他們的作品其實很多都被收藏到日本的博物館，年輕一輩傳承下來越來越少，所以我們希望學校也要上木雕課。為什麼我會從這個開始說起？這些年我很難過，我看到好多的木雕師，你看那個作品那麼棒，可是他們過世的時候，連一個紀錄他們曾經做過什麼的文字手冊都沒有，因為家人不懂、不會。像這個，我們有提報他做文資的身分，但是他沒有趕上拿到，因為他那時候已經癌末，所以只能夠把這個證書送到他的靈堂前面。","又或者像這位高富貴，那個時候他得癌症，他也是佳興村的，他特別做了一個木雕作品，那個時候我已經在縣政府當原民處處長，他跟我講說這個是他要送給當時2016年當選的蔡英文總統，他在那邊告訴我說這個代表什麼，那個握手是代表將來總統要不能夠分階級、不能分族群、不能分聰明或愚笨，他跟每一個人的手握到，他都要接納，但是他還沒有見到總統就過世了。所以我的意思是，如果我們能夠有一個研討會，就會有很多的學生、學者去採訪做田調，會把他們記錄下來。","我在這裡是要跟部長您說謝謝，因為幾個月前我有質詢這個部分，謝謝文化部的同仁、文資局有找臺灣公益研究中心，在今年的12月會辦理一個原住民公益的研討會，也會去針對這些木雕村、木雕博物館予以發展，所以我要先跟部長您提這個部分。接下來我要講的就是，像是我們的步道師，您應該很清楚，他們也逐漸凋零啊！可是步道師要成為文資保存者還沒辦法呢！因為依照現在的法規，先要有步道的文資身分，步道師才能夠具備文資身分，原住民的古道有幾條啊！可是我們的步道師能等嗎？所以這個部分我希望，部長，這個功課就交給您，您想想看我們怎麼來完成這件事，好不好？","又例如我們要去做這個，我看到我們的施政理念，文化部的重點有再造歷史場域、有歷史與文化資產的維護，這幾年我們看到，哇！舊好茶，好不容易一棟做起來，老七佳加固做起來，可是我要說的是，好多的部落，舊來義、舊古樓、舊排灣、舊好茶，老七佳，好多，我們有一點要跟時間賽跑，這些多麼美，在叢山峻嶺中，而且這幾年原住民都喊，給我一條回家的路，政府也很重視這些過去的古道它怎麼串聯、怎麼恢復。所以在這邊我就是特別地，也希望給部長這個功課，您可以想一想，現在既然是重點政策，但是我們是在跟時間賽跑，能不能錢多一點，經費編多一點，讓這些跟時間賽跑的文化工程能夠快速的建立起來？","還有一個功課要給部長，主席，不好意思，我再給一個功課，就是我們的地方藝文場館，我們看到你們有活化的計畫，可是我要講的是私人的部分，您看一下，這個是阿禮部落的杜文喜，這個是我過去把它搶救的，他沒有文物館，他家人很希望有文物館，但是我們找不到文物館。","又例如排灣三寶公益館，這個是琉璃珠之母，他每個月花兩萬五的租金，在內埔的水門做一個公益館，他是靠賣琉璃珠維持，但是他說人家房東要漲房租，要把他趕走，他也很希望能夠有一個自己的公益館。","例如在南投布農族，這個黑黑谷的織布婆婆，多少的學校是要來看他織布，因為他掌握十二竿技術，可是你看他住的地方，每一次要把他的織布機搬出來，然後示範，在地上示範給大家看，他也需要一個文物館，需要政府來幫忙他。","像彭水光老師，他現在失智，他的家人竟然拜託我們說，能不能夠找人家把他的木雕全部賣掉，希望讓他治病，他也需要有一個文物館。","所以我要講的是，壯大臺灣的內容，原住民有太多的東西可以貢獻給國家，希望我們這一些末梢、我們看不到的地方，我們都很願意來幫忙大家帶路，希望能夠真正的把我們的這個文化奠定起來，讓臺灣可以跟中國不一樣，讓世界看到臺灣。部長，我想您新上任，給您出一點點新的功課，我相信您的理念、您的價值一定可以帶領文化部去注意到這一些更需要幫忙的地方，好不好？"],["李部長遠：非常非常贊成，因為我小時候一出生，我爸爸就保存了非常多的原住民木雕跟畫，這個對我來講是成長中根深蒂固的記憶，所以我一定會努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：希望我們的經費可以多編列一點去幫助，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，部長請回。我們接下來請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.544718750000001,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.09284375,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.33409375,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.56596875,"end":34.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.46846875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.57784375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.876593750000005,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.93971875,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.92159375,"end":91.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.47221875000001,"end":95.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.03284375000001,"end":102.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.32284375,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.40659375000001,"end":113.53221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.85284375,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.63284375,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.16284375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.14409375,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.59096875,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":162.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.34721875,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.00096875,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.30784375000002,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.17659375000002,"end":177.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.65721875,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.68221875,"end":193.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.75596875000002,"end":207.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.52596875,"end":216.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.46534375000002,"end":231.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.18034375000002,"end":233.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.66534375,"end":240.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.46596875,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.80784375,"end":270.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.26284375,"end":274.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.80659375,"end":279.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.54846875000004,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.93221875,"end":282.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.67034375000003,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.69534375,"end":286.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.88909375000003,"end":294.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.98909375,"end":305.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.41784375000003,"end":312.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.60659375,"end":321.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.19159375000004,"end":331.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.94096875,"end":399.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.69846875,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.50659375000004,"end":450.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.72846875000005,"end":491.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.09284375000004,"end":495.97034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.93,"end":10.112,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長有請部長委員好我們又見面了謝謝部長我很開心看到您來掌舵文化部相信會有新氣象文化部這幾年一直在標榜著壯大台灣內容建立文化自信"},{"start":31.394,"end":41.712,"text":"我相信提到壯大台灣的內容您應該不會否認原住民的文化底蘊是很重要的一個部分對吧"},{"start":42.987,"end":69.078,"text":"那我在這邊是想要跟部長就是聊一下因為我覺得在政府部門做這麼多事情的當中有很多很細微的威脅管的部分末梢的部分往往是政府不容易掌握到的那可能是基於我們的法規那我在這邊想要跟您提幾個部分像第一個您看一下這個圖片"},{"start":71.744,"end":91.336,"text":"這個是在屏東泰武鄉有一個村叫做嘉興村它叫布勒底 這個村呢很特別因為日治時期當時日本人有在這邊設置一個公益指導所因為他們發現部落很多人都很會做木雕"},{"start":92.537,"end":101.218,"text":"那我曾經在這個地方服務過但是因為這是一個很小的部落他的學校早就已經分校廢棄了"},{"start":103.379,"end":126.652,"text":"我是這個本校泰晤國小的校長所以呢我很努力做一件事就是讓學校有木雕課程所以我們辦了一個展一百年的接力賽過去這一些一百年前的這些先人他們的作品其實很多都被收藏到日本的博物館"},{"start":128.206,"end":155.987,"text":"那年輕一輩傳承下來越來越少所以我們希望學校也要來上木雕那為什麼我會從這個開始說起這些年我很難過我看到好多的木雕師你看那個作品那麼棒可是他們過世的時候連一個記錄他們曾經做過什麼的文字手冊都沒有因為家人不懂不會"},{"start":157.168,"end":171.256,"text":"那像這個我們有提報他做文資身份但是他沒有趕上拿到他的因為他那時候已經癌末所以只能夠把這個證書送到他的靈堂前面"},{"start":172.352,"end":189.068,"text":"那又或者說像這個高富貴那個時候他得癌症他也是嘉興村的他特別做了一個木雕作品跑到那個時候我已經在縣政府當原民處處長他跟我講說這個是他要送給當時2016年當選的蔡英文總統"},{"start":193.823,"end":215.28,"text":"他在那邊告訴我說這個代表什麼那個握手是代表將來總統要握到不能夠分階級不能分族群不能分聰明愚笨他跟每一個人的手握到他都要接納但是呢他還沒有見到總統就過世了所以我的意思是說如果我們能夠有一個研討會"},{"start":217.543,"end":232.829,"text":"就會有很多的學生學者會去採訪做填調會把他們記錄下來那我在這裡是要跟部長您說謝謝因為我上一次幾個月前"},{"start":233.849,"end":247.787,"text":"我有來質詢這個部分那謝謝我們文化部的同仁文資局有找台灣工藝研究中心會在今年的12月會辦理一個原住民工藝的研討會"},{"start":249.108,"end":265.848,"text":"也會去針對這些木雕村木雕博物館來去做一個發展所以我這個部分要先跟部長您提所以接下來我要講的就是像是我們的步道師您應該很清楚他們也逐漸凋零啊"},{"start":266.889,"end":282.959,"text":"可是步道師要成為文資保存者還沒辦法呢因為依照現在的法規先要有步道的文資身份步道師才能夠具備文資身份可是原住民的古道有幾條啊"},{"start":284.727,"end":311.704,"text":"可是我們的步道是能等嗎所以這個部分我希望部長這個功課就交給您你想想看我們怎麼來完成這件事好不好那又例如我們要去做這個我看到我們的施政理念文化部的重點有再造歷史場域有歷史與文化資產的維護這幾年我們看到哇舊好長好不容易一棟做起來老七家加固做起來"},{"start":312.805,"end":331.527,"text":"可是我要說的是好多的部落舊來義舊古樓舊排灣舊好茶好多老七家我們有一點要跟時間賽跑欸這些多麼美在崇山峻嶺中而且這幾年原住民都喊給我一條回家的路"},{"start":333.018,"end":347.204,"text":"政府也很重視這些過去的古道他怎麼串聯怎麼恢復所以在這邊我就是特別也希望給部長這個功課您可以想一想現在既然是重點政策但是我們是在跟時間賽跑能不能錢多一點"},{"start":351.226,"end":375.324,"text":"經費編多一點讓他們跟時間賽跑的這些文化工程能夠快速的建立起來還有一個功課要給我們的部長主席不好意思再給我一個功課就是我們的地方藝文場館我們看到你們有活化的計畫可是我要去講的是私人的部分您看一下這個是一個阿里的杜文喜這個是我過去把他搶救的"},{"start":378.146,"end":398.335,"text":"他沒有文物館他家人很希望有文物館但是我們找不到文物館又例如這個是一個排灣族三寶工藝館他這個是琉璃珠之母他每個月花兩萬五的租金在內埔的水門去做一個工藝館"},{"start":399.756,"end":416.097,"text":"他是靠賣琉璃珠維持但是他說人家房東要漲房租要把他趕走他也很希望能夠有一個自己的公益館那例如在南投布農族這個黑黑股的支部伯伯"},{"start":416.818,"end":433.862,"text":"多少的學校是要來看他織布欸因為他掌握十二竿的技術欸可是你看他住的地方每一次要把他織布機搬出來然後示範在地上示範給大家看他也需要一個文物館需要政府來幫忙他像這個彭水光老師"},{"start":437.023,"end":455.348,"text":"他現在失智他的家人竟然拜託我們說能不能夠找人家把他的木雕全部賣掉希望讓他治病他也需要有一個文物館所以我要講的是說壯大台灣的內容原住民有太多的東西可以貢獻給國家"},{"start":457.148,"end":461.751,"text":"那希望我們這一些末梢我們看不到的地方我們都很願意來幫忙大家帶路希望呢能夠真正的去把我們的這個文化去奠定起來讓台灣可以跟中國不一樣讓世界看到台灣那部長這是我想說您新上任給您出一點點新的功課那希望我相信您的理念"},{"start":484.488,"end":491.307,"text":"你的價值一定可以帶領我們的文化部去注意到這一些更需要幫忙的地方好不好?"}]}},{"id":"152852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dbf66e0b71fa560c06fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d20179f39026cf38ee7fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:57:26 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面要去執行的相關預算而不是而不是用人來管人"},{"start":438.377,"end":462.865,"text":"用政治價值來管台灣的文化您同意嗎委員這點請你放心我過去在我的所有工作裡面對原住民的文化我充滿了興趣我不僅僅是原住民的我還講的是台灣的文化的美麗還有它的價值核心您知道文化來自於歷史的底蘊是吧"},{"start":463.485,"end":488.081,"text":"所謂的歷史的底蘊就不是切割式的不是輪轉式的轉盤式的而是真正的怎麼樣把這段歷史給找回來然後找到核心的價值理念然後再把美麗的東西放進去人是最美麗的但是呢有很多人把人變得很可惡那這是誰在做0.1%的人在操作這些人"},{"start":489.022,"end":499.688,"text":"所以今天我很高興您在這邊任文化部部長希望真正把台灣這塊美麗美麗的核心價值找回來而不是用政治對立的價值可以嗎我跟你深深的期待謝謝希望您回去看1624我的質詢我下次我們再來探討一下謝謝謝謝你謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3197b59b132134893a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d20175d8c8ccef27180a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:55:57 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13:03:06","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":429,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T13:03:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:55:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1186,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時56分）謝謝主席，有請國發會副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：副主委好，臺灣面臨人口結構這樣的問題，相關的因應作為，基本上它的主責還是在國發會，所以今天經濟委員會才會召開這樣的會議。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["劉委員建國：我想人口結構快速轉變，這是對臺灣最大的一個挑戰，這個上位的計畫到底是什麼，我們至今沒有看過。當然針對外國人才延攬的相關計畫是由國發會主責，我必須要跟副主委探討，雖然今天前主委已經變成秘書長了，但他要面對的這件事情還是一樣要有一定的延續性，我要特別提到幾個面向來做一個參考：當人口結構快速轉變的時候，不管是經濟、教育、文化、產業等等無一倖免，只是快或慢遇到這樣的狀況。今天我們就是要針對專業外國人才來進行招攬，如果我們對照鄰近國家，與日本來做比較，副主委你覺得如果日本打70分，我們可以打幾分？用簡單的數據講一下就好。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：日本打70分的話，我想我們也應該是及格，可以打60分。"],["劉委員建國：可以嗎？你確定？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果就……"],["劉委員建國：以日本擁有的專業技術高端外國人才來看，截至2023年10月大約有60萬人，比2018年的27萬人左右足足增加了一倍多，我們現在呢？小英在2021年8月推動強化人口及移民政策，這個專案我們在實施，就誠如你剛剛所講的Talent Taiwan，我們設定的目標是2030年要達到40萬人，沒有錯吧！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["劉委員建國：他們在2023年已經達到60萬人，我們到2030年才要達到40萬人？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：40萬人是根據我們評估到2030年我們的人才跟人力的缺口，我們估算出來的，因為我們跟日本的人口數量也不太一樣。"],["劉委員建國：對，我們比例是不一樣的，比例和占比不一樣，這個我很清楚，但是你有沒有發覺另外一個數據？第一個，這個人數當然是按照人口比例及相關需求去做評估，這個我可以接受，但是你注意看，它是到2023年（去年）就已經達到60萬人，我們是到2030年才要達到40萬人。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["劉委員建國：居留五年以上的目前為止只有3,339人，居留三年以上的只有261人，我不曉得為什麼這個比例如此之低？這個數據你們應該有嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果按照這樣的話，到2030年可以延攬所謂的外國相關人才達到40萬人，我覺得確實有很大的問題，這是第一件事情，請副主委等一下答復我。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二個，延攬國外人才來到臺灣，他絕對是散落在每一個縣市，這是不爭的事實，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["劉委員建國：中央要推動這樣的政策，目前為止，有跟22縣市當中的哪一個縣市具體合作，讓比例較多的外國人才留在這個縣市得到更好的照顧、更好的互動環境嗎？有嗎？不然只有你中央在做，地方政府對這件事情根本跟我們完全沒有連結，我們跟地方政府也完全沒有任何的互動機制，他們就是散落在22個縣市裡面，這不是很奇怪嗎？","我再講一個日本的例子，你看日本的新宿區，他們就有個地方自治條例，他們有二十多個委員組成一個組織，跟住在新宿區的相關外籍人士有定期的聚會，協助他們生活上的需求，甚至於讓他們的文化可以融入到當地的新宿區去做最好的連結，我們有嗎？你可以舉一個案例嗎？看看在22個縣市當中，國發會跟哪一個縣市有做類似這樣的政策？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，針對臺灣人口結構的變化，我們有一個叫人才及移民的首長會議，有做跨部會的協調，在這個會議裡面，其實我們過去幾年提出了一些比較創新的作法跟作為，都是在這個會議裡面達成的協議，包括勞動部、教育部、內政部，甚至僑委會等相關部會，的確在跨部會的橫向聯繫上面，我們是有做到。就如委員說的，我們還是以中央政府的角度去……我們跨部會是希望由各個部會往下去做跟地方的鏈結。以國發會來說，在那個層級裡面的確沒有直接對應到地方政府，而是透過各個主管的部會所實施的政策裡面，由他們去做中央跟地方之間的……"],["劉委員建國：副主委，我的時間到了。其實很清楚嘛，你講的第一段是中央跨部會的部分有做，對於散落到各縣市的這些外籍人士，我們跨部會的哪一個部會也有跟地方政府連結？我跟你講還是沒有啦！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果都沒有的情況之下，這些人要怎麼留在這個地方，讓他們不會有五年的、三年的比例這麼低？我們要達到2030年有40萬幾乎是不可能發生的事情啦！現在的秘書長也要面對，你們做了很多的地方創生，為什麼沒有去做這樣的一個連結？我真的不懂。因為時間的關係，我希望是不是可以全面地再去做一個思考，對照其他國家，人家有很好的執行案例，我們可以真正地讓這些外國人才留得住、留得久，幫助臺灣面對整體結構快速轉變來做最好的因應嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["劉委員建國：一個月。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。謝謝委員提供我們這樣的資訊，我們會從這個方向思考，看看我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方之間在攬才上面的相關鏈結，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：好，一個月之內提供相關規劃期程，可以讓我參考，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我們再提供給委員。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另外有陳昭姿委員、張嘉郡委員、莊瑞雄委員、盧縣一委員、邱鎮軍委員、蘇清泉委員、林淑芬委員、陳超明委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.27971875,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.32596875,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.363468750000001,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.16721875,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.184093750000002,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.75784375,"end":21.242843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.64784375,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.930343750000002,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.07346875,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.575343750000002,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.93284375,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.540343750000005,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.91971875,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.704093750000006,"end":41.290343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.89784375,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.994718750000004,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.36596875,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.12096875,"end":50.267843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.33534375,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.89596875,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.30659375,"end":72.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.54284375,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.23846875000001,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.21221875,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.17409375000001,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.31284375,"end":86.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.13971875,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.86096875000001,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.62409375,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.56471875000001,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.65721875000001,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.41659375,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.46284375,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.30659375,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.52596875,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":101.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.48784375000001,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.29784375000001,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.87159375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.16221875000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.36034375000001,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.87909375000001,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.65096875,"end":111.00096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.78971875,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.72596875,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.86909375,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.90659375000001,"end":129.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.00221875,"end":134.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.81159375000001,"end":134.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.91284375,"end":135.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.30096875,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.87471875,"end":136.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.08971875,"end":137.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.37221875,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.43096875,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.86534375000002,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.83971875,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.40471875,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.33284375000002,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.42909375000002,"end":158.48721875},{"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Taiwan的我們預計的設定目標是二零三零年要達到四十萬,沒有錯吧?對不對?好。我們要在,它現在已經達到六十萬,二零二三。我們到二零三零才要達到四十萬。"},{"start":147.426,"end":176.964,"text":"我們40萬是根據我們評估到我們到2030年我們的人才跟人力的缺口我們估算出來的那因為我們跟日本的那個人口的那個數量比例是不一樣的比例占比是不一樣這個我很清楚但是但是你有沒有在發覺到另外一個數據第一個我們現在的這個這個人數當然也是按照人口的比例去按照相關的需求去做這個評估這個我可以接受但是"},{"start":177.324,"end":202.451,"text":"他是到你注意看喔他是到2023年就在去年的時候他已經達到60萬嘛我們是到2031年才要達到40萬喔好那拘留5年以上的目前為止只有3339人3000多人拘留3年以上的才有261年261人啦齁我不曉得為什麼這比例如此之低啦這數據你們應該有嘛是對"},{"start":207.165,"end":211.217,"text":"如果你按照這樣的話要到2030年可以達到所謂的"},{"start":212.571,"end":241.778,"text":"延攬外國的相關的人才要達到40萬我覺得我覺得確實有很大的問題這是第一件事情請副主委等一下去打我第二個延攬國外人才來到台灣他絕對是散落在每一個縣市嘛這是不是這個事實嘛對不對那中央要來推動這樣的政策那目前為止有跟有跟22個縣市哪一個縣市有具體合作讓他們比例較多的外國的人才留在這個縣市得到更好的照顧"},{"start":242.638,"end":243.939,"text":"則不予審查：劉建國則不予審查：劉建國則不予審查：劉建國則不予審查：劉建國"},{"start":270.093,"end":294.381,"text":"然後組成了這樣的一個跟住在新宿區的相關的外籍人士有定期的聚會有協助他們生活上的需求甚至於讓他們的文化可以融入到當地的新宿區去做最好的連結我們有嗎?你可以給我舉一個案例22縣市國防會跟哪一個縣市有做這樣類似的政策"},{"start":295.923,"end":321.705,"text":"委員報告啦,的確呢,我們現在呢,針對我們台灣人口結構的變化裡面,我們有一個叫人才及移民的首長會議,那有做跨部會的協調,然後這個會議裡面呢,其實我們過去幾年提出了一些比較創新的一些做法跟作為,都是在這個會議裡面達成的協議,那有勞動部、教育部、然後內政部、"},{"start":322.546,"end":323.187,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":353.169,"end":357.051,"text":"的政策中他去做這個中央跟地方之間的聯繫。"},{"start":370.799,"end":385.517,"text":"對,如果都沒有的情況之下這些人要怎麼留在這個地方讓他們可以不會有五年的、三年的比例這麼低所以我們要達到2031年有40萬幾乎是不可能發生的事情所以這一個未來的現在秘書長也要面對"},{"start":386.758,"end":386.778,"text":"劉建國"},{"start":411.269,"end":412.11,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"152850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dd32b001473218d4888b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d2017e0231b435c3567a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:52:58 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銀行局長上來 銀行局主委好 總委好 局長好主委你來自學界 你知道我們擔任民意代表經常選民有婚禮我們就會送什麼 送什麼這個"},{"start":27.193,"end":40.468,"text":"白頭偕老但是現在很難偕老就寫才子佳人或者是鳳凰餘輝生了小孩我們以前會弄弄髒知喜現在女男平等你覺得有人家生小孩我們送什麼他四個字"},{"start":43.342,"end":72.562,"text":"我們都會送生慶得人我也會送行政院這四個字因為很開心看到您到金管會來那麼過去在常在財委會的朋友們都知道來財委會我一定充分準備PowerPoint但是今天我沒有特別準備因為我相信我對主委過去在學界各種的論壇我去參與對您的瞭解以及您也常常給我寶貴意見您對我議題的瞭解應該我們彼此不太需要透過一個PowerPoint來溝通"},{"start":73.442,"end":96.258,"text":"加上我今天看了一下您的這個業務概況報告請問是您到任後才指示同仁做收集的嗎?有些部分新的措施確實是我到任以後才跟他們討論的那我看的蠻有你的特色這六大面向43個重點第一章就是關於風險監理就是您的本行但是我仔細看了一下我覺得也要幫寫這份"},{"start":97.447,"end":117.726,"text":"報告的同仁團隊給予肯定因為以我在財委會這幾年來大概這裡面我所偏好的有三分之一在裡面所以說好球帶蠻集中的蠻適合揮棒的我相信其他委員可以在這三四三個重點當中找到他們要的題材那底下我就針對幾個部分來就教於主委"},{"start":118.507,"end":131.122,"text":"那麼首先在您的第三面向第九點就是保險契約強制執行的參考原則剛好也是這距離近我都持續的在關心的那請問主委目前有什麼進度嗎?"},{"start":133.357,"end":155.127,"text":"現在的話就是我們現在會盡快的來跟我們執行單位訂定這個參考原則希望把這個處理能夠有一個更明確的方法交給這個執行單位來處理減少這些案件跟民怨那再來當然接下來還是要從根本上我們會修保險法把有關那個受益人借物權的部分把它修到保險法裡面解決這個問題"},{"start":156.363,"end":174.592,"text":"好那我想呢在市局長的協助之下應該可以很順利的很快的就完成這個任務那接下來呢我也看到了在洗錢防治要分階段納管虛擬資產平台與交易業務啊剛巧我這會期呢被發配到司法法治委員會"},{"start":175.692,"end":204.488,"text":"看到您這些題目我都很後悔但沒辦法在那個重災區我們也關心到一些議題跟我們金管會有關那明天我們要排審洗錢防治法那這當中關於心理資產我們也問了一下新任的法務部正部長好像他說也有跟您請拜託過請託過因為現在很多詐團的犯罪所得他們基本上民眾最想要的就是把被騙的錢拿回來是不是這樣"},{"start":205.58,"end":224.131,"text":"是的但是呢他們不管動產不動產那很好查但是遇到了虛幣或者是加密貨幣虛擬資產就沒轍了但是這裡面的是未來法務部的一個重點那我跟他提要說可能需要金管會這邊來協助那您覺得關於這個部分金管會可以幫得上什麼忙"},{"start":227.22,"end":238.564,"text":"這個主要是我們在整個分工部分的話我們大概是在主柵就跟委員提到就是說但是零貴關懷主柵但是後面的加密貨幣或虛擬資產對對對這是我們在那個打柵專法裡面也把那個虛擬資產跟虛擬帳戶也放進來這裡規範就是這個部分把我們的整個規範的範圍加大了"},{"start":248.368,"end":262.985,"text":"那再來就是剛剛前陣子我們在顯現防治法裡面呢也開始用登記制的方式納管這些所謂的這些的未來進行虛擬市場交易的那個那個對象這部分也會大幅提高這個管控的強度"},{"start":263.285,"end":287.951,"text":"好很好主委這邊給一個參考的方向啦齁那麼就他們辦案的意見來講呢其實啊詐騙所的如果是用貨幣金錢啊進入到銀行帳戶啊因為大水庫啊進進出出到底哪一筆錢是哪一個人被詐的要緩繁實務上很困難因為什麼錢是一模一樣的但是相反的虛幣加密貨幣或虛擬資產就不一樣囉你給他的每一個"},{"start":289.091,"end":289.911,"text":"我們看到很多年輕人吶"},{"start":319.533,"end":342.569,"text":"他的帳號呢被拿去當人頭帳戶很倒霉在短短的時間內交易了好幾次馬上變成警示帳號甚至妨礙他未來的信用請問你認為要如何來防制這樣的情況再發生我們的帳戶的分級可以做到嗎?就像我們的ATM期款或者我們的信用卡可以分級有的卡只能夠3萬元有的卡可以上百萬元您覺得未來銀行帳戶可以做類似的分級管理嗎?"},{"start":346.124,"end":364.651,"text":"報告委員其實現在銀行自己本身就已經做有一些分級的管理啦比如說久未往來的帳戶他如果一旦來更換他的硬件或者是一些他的現況的情況我了解我是想請教主委那未來你覺得可以怎麼樣去強化呢這也在你們的43個重點當中"},{"start":367.453,"end":387.251,"text":"這個確實對於賬戶的分級管理我們除了現有的方式以外我們現在已經開始在研究或是折騰我們的這個銀行公會針對像比如說我們能不能有效的在源頭就做一些分級管理的管控這我們會來強化比如說什麼呢你們的分級管理可以更具體的後面描述幾個例子方向讓我們思考一下嗎"},{"start":387.796,"end":390.118,"text":"我記得在更早之前有人告訴我你做一個上班族,你的薪資、帳戶啊"},{"start":416.579,"end":437.53,"text":"你要累積到一定的信用銀行才會給你發給支票賬戶表示說你必須有一定的信用後你才能去開支票是不是這樣那未來是不是可以往這方面來發展來規劃這個朝風險為基礎的管控這應該是同一個方向好謝謝主委謝謝三位四位局長謝謝謝謝謝謝委員我們謝謝鍾佳濱委員謝謝接著我們請謝伊鳳委員"}]}},{"id":"152849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d2b56e731878c9e086fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017cb6aef268ea8587b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:51:42 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有請部長好 有請部長委員好好 部長好我要請教部長一下如果社區提出一部電影稀為說話無罪成為教育影片你接受嗎對不起 你剛才講哪一部影片"},{"start":32.762,"end":51.473,"text":"比如?你接受嗎?虛偽說謊的變成一個教育的一個影片你接受嗎?沒有在PPT裡面我想要請教你這樣子的我沒有完全太懂你的意思"},{"start":53.292,"end":53.312,"text":"為什麽?"},{"start":69.875,"end":69.935,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":100.075,"end":116.33,"text":"就是沒有在PPT裡面因為我在質詢的時候就聽到很多所以就是要問一下為了保障新住民的文化平淺文化部積極推動多元文化的交流通過文化交流的學習還有就是讓我們更多元但是在"},{"start":118.192,"end":123.718,"text":"而我們的社照裡面呢我們都一直在去推動但是我上次有問過因為上個部長說他要推動到現在為止我還沒有看到說我們有新住民的"},{"start":133.729,"end":133.949,"text":"昨天已經公告這一點了"},{"start":160.547,"end":186.479,"text":"昨天已經有公告所以說有另外的就是跟往年一樣是有另外一個計劃嘛是不是好所以因為在我們的社造在105到現在因為我也是在就是各個社區發展去演講去分享因為我有得到一百年的文學獎的第一個新住民得獎所以呢"},{"start":187.159,"end":197.151,"text":"我看到很多社區都是補助大家跟我們反映的經費很少又讓我們社區做很多還有說有很多的產品他們就是手工做好了但是沒有一個平台也沒有一個"},{"start":204.079,"end":220.496,"text":"地方讓大家可以把這些的文物推廣出去請問部長我們未來有沒有為我們的社區設立一個就是讓大家有這樣子的創作也有一個平台要讓更多的社會民眾看到這樣"},{"start":222.611,"end":244.121,"text":"我其實非常重視這個新住民包括社區營造我身邊也蠻多的朋友是新住民我也參與過新住民文學獎你是德國第一名嗎是其實我非常覺得台灣的文化裡要有新住民的文化參與之後會使我們台灣的文化更壯大這點請你放心"},{"start":245.011,"end":252.16,"text":"好所以我們希望就是說不只是這樣就是我們看到的就是每一個縣市的審查都不一樣所以希望說我們的審查就像我們的這個審查跟這個縣市的審查每一個審查的制度"},{"start":263.073,"end":270.598,"text":"還有就是專業的委員我們這邊都不一致希望我們文化部再有一個專業的小組還是說我們有一個機制讓每一個縣市的社區再去申請的時候就是會收到"},{"start":278.302,"end":294.701,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":295.56,"end":296.14,"text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員部長請回接下來請"}]}},{"id":"152848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d202d7ab33e1fa52f3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d201731b3cdcc79e3353f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"12:47:41 - 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Taiwan的單一服務窗口，針對外籍專業人才來臺所需要的服務，我們有一站式的服務。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所謂一站式的服務是什麼？可不可以簡單描述一下？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我請處長來說明一下。"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員關心。有關我們延攬人才的服務，我們是從他起心動念想要來臺灣開始，我們就有設立一個叫做Talent Taiwan的網站，有關他要來臺灣簽證的部分，我們會讓他在這個網站得到所有的資訊，如果他想要來，找到工作或者是還沒找到工作，都可以直接跟我們聯絡，我們提供他相關諮詢，來臺工作的相關……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以是跨部會的嗎？"],["謝處長佳宜：對，我們會協調相關部會，因為有一些譬如說……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們協調相關部會，所以你們只是一個接案的窗口、諮詢的窗口？還是真的能夠一站式服務？如果是一站式服務，我們覺得應該是能夠從頭到尾……"],["謝處長佳宜：是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：確定可以嗎？"],["謝處長佳宜：對，我們有專人的服務……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，細節的部分我之後再問。我們曾經碰過一個狀態是有一個法國的專業人士要到臺灣來，結果移民署不知道他念的學校算不算是專業人士，後來他們去問了教育部，教育部也不知道，教育部的回答竟然是因為沒有臺灣人在這所學校念書，所以教育部不知道它其實是我們認證的一個學校。如果連這樣子的問題都會發生的時候，我們怎麼能夠奢求我們真的是要往全球去招攬人才，這個部分是特別要提到的。","另外就是我們需要有更簡化的程序，因為我們看到臺灣的薪資水平在國際上其實並不一定那麼具有競爭力，我們看到所有的研究報告，他們為什麼會想到臺灣來？其實很多外國人士考量的點在於：第一個是臺灣的整體環境，另外就是臺灣人的友善，這是他們想要來臺灣的前三大重要原因之一，第二個就是工作上的需求。所以我們要怎麼樣讓他們覺得臺灣是非常友善的，我覺得單一窗口的部分一定是很重要的，而且我們比較新加坡的模式，新加坡在延攬國際人才的時候非常積極，在1990年代的時候，他們就向全球招攬人才，我們的起步已經比較慢了，我知道你剛剛提到的Talent Taiwan是在去年成立的，我們希望它能夠真正變成一個很好的單一窗口，讓臺灣去延攬全球人才，然後來挹注接下來臺灣要持續發展很重要的一個部分，好不好？"],["謝處長佳宜：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我會針對這部分再做很細部的瞭解。除了高階人才之外，我也要特別提到一個部分，就是移工的問題，今天好多單位都有來，包括國發會也有來，因為人才、移工的問題，肯定是一個跨部會的問題。我必須講一個失聯移工的問題，目前人數衝高，有八、九萬人散居在我們這個社會當中，我不知道移民署是抓不到，還是覺得不能抓？現在有一個說法是，因為我們在很多產業缺工太嚴重了，所以移民署等於是沒有辦法真的盡全力去抓，抓了之後就會影響到很多相關的產業，包括農、漁、牧，甚至營造相關產業。副主委，你可不可以針對這部分回應一下？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：針對失聯移工的問題，其實行政院從2021年開始就已經召開多場會議，協調勞動部、內政部等，目前有一些相關的措施，我們會針對一些移工的問題，因為他會失聯可能跟薪資低、勞動條件不佳、還有雇主不合理對待等等問題有關，各部會其實也提出了一個相對的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：副主委，你回答這部分，其實更細節了，我覺得現在失聯移工有一個很大的狀態，所謂缺工之所在，黑工之所在，因為有缺工，所以就會有黑工，要怎麼樣解決缺工的問題，國發會是不是能夠有更高的魄力？其實新的經濟部長去拜訪我們的時候，他也很清楚講到臺灣確實缺工問題非常嚴重，他甚至直接提到一個狀態，包括旅遊業、飯店業的相關清潔人力，他都覺得應該要開放，可是勞動部在這部分肯定是不願意的，所以針對這個部分，國發會是不是能夠站在更高位置，進行一個跨部會的協調，真正解決臺灣缺工的問題？至少缺工的問題合理解決，黑工的問題才不會這樣猖狂。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：關於特別產業的缺工問題，其實都會在勞動部的相關會議裡面討論，當然國發會也會參與。至於剛剛您提到的餐飲業缺工的問題，目前正在討論當中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還有飯店業者等等。我這邊要提到針對整個產業發展，其實很需要一個移工聘僱率很清楚地給他們，我希望國發會能夠協調各部會，很清楚地訂出各產業的移工聘僱率，讓他們能夠藉由定期調整聘僱率的機制，以徹底解決缺工的問題，可不可以？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我們儘量做評估，就委員關心的各產業缺工的比率。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝，關於移工聘僱率這部分，你們之後再跟本辦公室做一個細部的說明。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來請柯志恩、柯志恩，柯志恩委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","最後請劉建國委員發言，發言時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.024718750000002,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.26909375,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.723468750000002,"end":58.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.87409375,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.71784375,"end":66.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.46346875,"end":95.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.05409375,"end":105.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.75284375000001,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.11096875000001,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.01784375000001,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.11034375000001,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.20659375000001,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.22346875000001,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.88159375,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.38721875000002,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.91846875000002,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.13284375,"end":158.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.66409375,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.84534375,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.14034375,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.53596875000002,"end":174.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.53096875,"end":183.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.00221875000003,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.61284375000002,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.40971875000002,"end":292.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.02534375,"end":279.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.50409375000004,"end":302.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.61659375,"end":306.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.39221875000004,"end":308.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.15159375,"end":313.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.53471875,"end":319.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.40284375000005,"end":323.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.14909375,"end":326.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.08534375,"end":332.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.55284375,"end":336.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.61971875,"end":336.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.34534375000004,"end":347.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.53784375000004,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.66409375,"end":349.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.79909375,"end":365.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.49721875,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.11534375,"end":378.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.07721875000004,"end":389.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.89409375,"end":391.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.26096875,"end":403.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.00159375000004,"end":419.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.09596875000005,"end":425.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.58034375000005,"end":440.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.41784375000003,"end":445.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.23971875,"end":471.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.46784375000004,"end":474.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.12971875000005,"end":480.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.88409375000003,"end":486.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.34721875,"end":488.42721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.349,"text":"副主委副主委"},{"start":23.892,"end":38.457,"text":"副主席好,非常感謝主席今天特別安排了外國專業人才延攬相關的一個法規的一個修改跟質詢那因為我在想說在整個台灣少子化之後那整個產業從數位化開始要轉成AI轉型的這過程當中的時候"},{"start":42.658,"end":57.907,"text":":「人才肯定是最重要的一件事情。」台灣能夠從70年前發展到現在,人才也是一個很重要的一個部分。我想請教副主委,我們對於整個國際人才的延攬,算不算是我們國家級的戰略計畫?"},{"start":59.088,"end":73.264,"text":"當然是當然是是不是很棒喔聽到這麼肯定的一個回答那我想請問一下因為整個優秀人才高級人才的部分我看到所有我們所謂的高級專業人才在我們"},{"start":74.845,"end":74.945,"text":"鄭正鈐議員鄭正鈐議員"},{"start":95.137,"end":115.883,"text":"有,我們設立了一個Talent Taiwan,這個戰衣服務窗口,然後我們會跟隨這個外籍專業人才來台,所以他所要的服務,我們有一站式的這種服務。他說一站式的服務是什麼,是什麼樣的,要簡單描述一下。好,包括,我們要不要請我們處長來說明一下好不好。"},{"start":118.451,"end":125.316,"text":"謝謝委員關心有關我們延攬人才的服務我們是從他開始起心動念想要來台灣我們就有設立一個網站是叫做Talent Taiwan這個網站然後他有關他要來台灣的簽證的部分我們會讓他在這個網站得到所有的資訊他如果想要來找到工作或者是還沒找到工作都可以直接來跟我們聯絡我們提供他相關的資訊來台工作的相關資訊"},{"start":147.21,"end":170.418,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":170.598,"end":194.414,"text":"法國的一個專業人士他要到台灣來結果呢就移民署這邊對於所謂的專業人士他不知道他念的學校算不算是專業人士因為後來他們去問了教育部教育部也不知道因為教育部的回答竟然是說因為台灣人沒有在這所學校念書所以教育部不知道他其實是我們認"},{"start":195.795,"end":217.412,"text":"鄭的一個學校所以說如果連這樣子的問題都會發生的時候我們怎麼能夠奢求說我們真的是要往全球去招攬人才這個部分是特別要提到的那另外一個部分就是說因為我們需要有更簡化的一個程序因為我們看到台灣的一個薪資水平在國際上其實並不一定那麼具競爭力"},{"start":218.573,"end":246.249,"text":"所以我們是看到了所有的一個研究報告出來他們為什麼會覺得到台灣來也是很多外國人是他們考量的點第一個是整個台灣的整體環境還有另外就是台灣人的友善是他們想要來重要的前三大原因那第二個就是工作上的需求那所以說我們要怎麼樣子讓他們覺得台灣是非常友善的我覺得這個單一窗口的部分一定是很重要的而且按照"},{"start":247.61,"end":261.764,"text":"新加坡在整個延攬國際人才的時候非常非常的積極在1990年代的時候他們就向全球招攬人才那我們的起步已經比較慢了那我知道說你剛剛提到的那個"},{"start":263.325,"end":263.345,"text":"鄭正鈐"},{"start":293.565,"end":319.61,"text":"人才移工的問題肯定是一個跨部會的問題那我必須要講一個失戀移工的問題人數衝高啊八九萬人散居在我們這樣子的一個社會當中然後移民署這邊的時候呢我不知道是抓不到還是覺得不能抓因為有一個說法是說因為我們在很多產業缺工太嚴重了"},{"start":320.55,"end":336.366,"text":"所以移民署等於是沒有辦法真的盡全力去抓抓了之後就會影響到很多相關的產業很多農漁牧甚至於營造的相關產業副主委您可不可以針對這部分回應一下"},{"start":337.407,"end":359.899,"text":"其實針對這些私人移工的問題其實行政院從2021年開始其實已經召開多場的會議喔協調勞動部、內政部等有一些相關的措施啦然後包括因為會針對有一些移工的他因為他會自然可能跟薪資低啊、勞動條件不佳啊還有僱主不合理對待等一些相關問題"},{"start":361.56,"end":361.721,"text":"則不予審查：鄭正鈐"},{"start":379.104,"end":403.899,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":404.099,"end":425.467,"text":"人力他都覺得應該要開放可是勞動部在這部分肯定是不願意的所以國發會在這個部分是不是能夠佔據更高的位置能夠來做一個跨部會的一個協調來真正解決台灣缺工的一個問題至少你缺工的問題合理解決黑工的問題才不會這樣子的猖狂"},{"start":426.893,"end":431.554,"text":"有關於特別產業的缺工的問題其實都會在勞動部的相關的會議裡面做討論當然我們國發會也會參與剛剛您提到的餐飲業的缺工問題目前正在討論當中"},{"start":446.538,"end":470.928,"text":"還有飯店業者等等那我這邊要提到因為整個產業發展其實很需要有一個移工聘僱率很清楚的給他們我希望國發會這邊能夠協調各部會很清楚的訂出這個各產業的一個移工聘僱率然後讓他們能夠定期來調整聘僱率的一個這樣的一個機制來這裡解決缺工的問題可不可以"},{"start":471.408,"end":471.488,"text":"請勿模仿"}]}},{"id":"152847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d41d3ff12f557a3cb49cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20174b5c6e5116a466015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:42:39 - 12:53:12","影片長度":"00:10:33","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":633,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:53:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:42:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1211,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時42分）謝謝主席，主席，我請一下彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我就是年紀大你很多的楊曜。部長剛剛講了環境部大概就是有一點環境氣候部的味道，所以我就先跟部長談一下減碳的問題，其實我們的減碳，大概需要多管齊下，包括林地的保護、樹木的種植、發展綠能、減少廢棄物、資源循環等等，都必須要去做。聯合國在去年底有示警，2030年必須要減少42%的碳排放，才能夠將全球暖化的情況控制在升溫1.5度，這個還滿嚴重的，但是我們環境部目前的目標是到2030年減少25%到28%，這跟42%其實差距還滿大的，部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們臺灣是24%加減1%，國際上大概是40%幾到50%左右，當然這個東西有些國家訂了不見得達得到，所以我一直跟很多人談到，我參加聯合國會議這麼多次，其實也有觀察到，很多的朋友都說做不到這個目標，2050年淨零碳排是一個很難做到的目標，但是因為很難做到，所以我們要很努力，當成是一個目標在做。","我們臺灣的24%加減1%，的確是稍微慢了國際的一個標準……"],["楊委員曜：部長，還有一個問題，就是每一個國家訂的標準，它都不一定可以達到，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：年份，以什麼年為減碳標準，大家都不一樣。"],["楊委員曜：其實我們訂的也不一定就可以達到，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：我提這個是希望提醒部長，我們跟聯合國示警的趴數已經算是相對低了，我們務必要在2030年達到24%加減1%也好，25%到28%也好，就是儘可能的努力，這是有關大氣的氣候變化，所以可能在部長任內應該要努力去做才行。","其實減少碳排有一個很重要的關鍵，就是再生能源的發展，國際能源總署建議，假如要在2050，當然部長剛剛講的，本席是認同的，即這是一個理想、一個目標，可是我們還是以2050來做論述。假如要在2050完成淨零碳排的話，2030必須要有60%的電能是屬於再生能源，可是根據經濟部能源署統計，到2023（去）年，臺灣不到10%的電力是再生能源發電，所以這些資料都告訴我們，其實臺灣距離淨零碳排還有很長的路要走，對不對？因為綠能發展的部分可能是以經濟部為主，你這邊可能也只是配合，因此，部長你上任以後，對於淨零碳排的中長期目標是什麼？怎麼落實？你有什麼想法嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們環境部在整個淨零碳排十二項關鍵戰略裡面只有兩個相關，一個是淨零綠生活，還有一個就是資源循環的部分，在整個裡面說實話真的是比較小，但是有一個責任卻是在我們身上，我們必須要控管全臺灣溫室氣體的減碳目標，而這件事情委員可能會給我壓力，可是這又是在各個部會，所以我會積極的跟各個部會來協商，尤其是我們下半年要訂2026到2030年的管制目標，所以壓力真的滿大的，這個都需要跨部會，一直不斷的跟各個部會來討論，希望可以快一點，這個的確是一個很艱鉅的任務。"],["楊委員曜：當然我覺得新內閣在於橫向的協調跟合作上，真的必須做到很落實，單單各個部會大概戰力都還夠，可是橫向的溝通、協調、合作，只要做得不好，整體會受影響，因為很少有一個重大事件是單一部會自己做的，所以這個部分部長還是要努力。","剛剛部長講到淨零轉型十二項關鍵戰略，我就直接跳到這一題，我們的十二項戰略裡面有一個資源循環零廢棄，我就要麻煩部長跟我們部裡面的同仁了，就我看到的資料，長期以來一樣是離島縣，金門的資源回收率常常居全國前三名，可是澎湖卻是後段班，這個能不能請部裡面跟縣府做一下溝通，或者是做一下輔導，以提高縣府的資源回收率？這個牽扯到兩個部分，大的是它影響到我們淨零轉型，小的是在資源回收上，離島又比較特殊，離島目前垃圾都是運回來，那個成本是很高的，所以我提這個問題，大的會影響到淨零轉型，小的會影響到我們的預算支出，這個能不能請部裡面跟縣府溝通一下？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實過去包含屏東的垃圾轉運回臺的部分，我們環境部都有補助，一年大概5,000萬。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，我現在不是講補助的部分。"],["彭部長啓明：就是資源回收率。"],["楊委員曜：我現在是講回收率，為什麼一樣是離島縣，金門回收率常常是全臺前三名，澎湖卻是末段班？可能縣裡面有遇到一些問題，能不能請環境部看看是否應該要增加設備、應該要增加人力或者是應該要怎麼落實，這個問題總是要解決。"],["彭部長啓明：我會請資源循環署來協助、輔導。"],["楊委員曜：好。部長，不好意思，最後一個問題，環境部現在對於公共污水下水道量能比較不普及的非都市地區，然後在水體具有水質影響敏感的河段或海域，有推動示範場協力的一個計畫，我有先問過，就是這個計畫是屬於競爭型的……"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯，競爭型。"],["楊委員曜：我能不能請部長研究看看，就是由離島先行來推動，因為競爭型的計畫，離島礙於公務部門人力的問題，通常會競爭不過人家，澎湖四面都是海，我們也一直在海洋環境保護下了很多功夫，可不可以請部長研議一下在全國競爭型以外，我們澎湖先讓你們當成示範區也好，試驗區也好，我們先在澎湖找一個島來做做看，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，這個我們會跟澎湖環保局來討論看看，我們部內會協助。"],["楊委員曜：因為我覺得這個計畫非常好，只是競爭型的有時候對於偏遠離島的縣市，在全國的競爭上會比較吃虧，這個就請部裡面再跟環保局做個溝通。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員。本日會議詢答全部結束，委員陳昭姿、邱鎮軍、盧縣一所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳昭姿書面質詢：","本席針對「環境部審查開發行為空氣污染物排放量增量抵換處理原則」向環境部所提之書面質詢：","1.部長您於2018年時，擔任天氣風險公司總經理赴韓國出席國際會議時，曾表示我國空氣污染量測位置較高（通常為3、4樓以上屋頂），故不宜設置過高的空氣汙染警報系統發送警報的門檻。請問部長上任後，是否會積極推動修正《空氣品質嚴重惡化警告發布及緊急防制辦法》，降低預警發布的門檻？","2.貴部執行開發單位之空氣污染物排放量增量抵換處理原則（以下簡稱：空污抵換原則）第四點中，為何沒有堅守將空污抵換原則限縮於同一空氣品質擴散影響區（以下簡稱：同一空品區），而是為開發單位大開後門，納入離島地區作為本島開發行為的抵換來源之一？","3.本年二月初，環保團體曾提議，同一空品區抵換範圍過大，應比照環評健康風險評估，將交易範圍「限縮在開發範圍周圍的10公里以內，且不該跨縣市開放抵換」。當時候貴部的官員有向媒體表示：因空污抵換原則的強制性不足，會再研議。請問貴部，此三個月下來的研議，貴部是否有考慮改變跨區抵換的形式？是否支持10公里以內的作法？","4.本席強調：貴部的空污抵換原則是很不負責任的做法，人民的健康，不是這些大型開發案可以用其他方式，來等價交換，去彌補所造成的空氣污染與健康危害。","5.貴部的空污抵換原則不但規定交代的非常模糊，充滿操作空間之外，貴部亦不應為經濟部、經濟開發行為找尋解套方式，這對開發案周圍的居民實在是非常不公平。請問貴部是否有針對開發案周圍之居民設立補償機制？","6.2018年，環保署陸續刪除空氣污染防制法（母法），並修正空污抵換原則（子法）之洗掃街抵換方式。請問貴部，為何一直到去年五月份仍有開發單位使用道路洗掃作為抵換執行方式？","有關空污抵換原則之上述問題，請環境部以書面報告回覆。"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","議題一：碳費今年開始實施，明年收費！","首先恭喜彭部長上任，但是接下來將要面對淨零轉型、碳費徵收、四接爭議、能源政策等重大課題，都是新部長一上任就要面對的挑戰，可以說是任重道遠。","針對碳費徵收，部長前天接受媒體專訪表示「無法決定碳費費率及上路期程，但考量企業國際競爭力，無論起徵點多低，碳費應愈快上路愈好」，另外也提出「氣候債券」概念及長期派駐歐洲的規劃。","碳費起徵點，企業建議碳費每噸起徵應低於100元！","Q1-1：部長，先前傳出政府傾向每噸收新臺幣300元，學者專家甚至建議到500元，企業界則提出歐盟碳稅是超出標準才收費，而且免費的標準則是每個產業別前10%企業的排碳平均值，遠遠超出我們的2.5萬噸免費量，所以費率看起來很高，實際收費卻不多，並且用不到的排碳量可以有碳權交易空間。此外，新加坡初期碳費只收5塊美金，日本只收2塊美金，所以我們的10塊美金、300元新臺幣，對企業來說根本就是天價，針對企業界建議初期先從新臺幣100元開始徵收，請問部長是否願意慎重考量？","主要國家碳定價機制（圖一）","碳費徵收300元/公噸，企業要交多少錢？","Q1-2：本席認為碳費定價應該合理，否則企業將承受不起，我們以國內主要鋼鐵及石化業為例，去年稅前盈餘及排碳量為計算基礎，如果每公噸300元，中鋼公司應繳交60億元碳費，遠遠超出他的稅前盈餘，也就是還沒繳營業稅及營所稅，就虧損14億元；另外中石化原本就已經面對經營困境，稅前就虧損5.9億元，繳5億碳費後，虧損加倍成為10.9億元；而台塑則要繳交98億元，佔營利的17.6%。請問部長，這樣的費率業界可以承受嗎？是否應該多聽聽業界的聲音？","建議：淨零減碳是國際產業發展方向，最具體的就是碳費的徵收，希望政府可以循序漸進推動，協助企業成功淨零轉型，而不是消滅企業。","同時，本席也希望政府優先考量目前受到ECFA停止早收清單影響最大的四大產業，本來就已經經營困難，現在不合理碳費將再度造成更大的經營困境，所以碳費徵收務必要合理。","Q1-3：有專家建議應該「量出為入」，先訂出減碳所需經費，再換算收取費率，請問環境部針對碳費徵收是採取「量入為出」還是「量出為入」？","Q1-4：本席認為應配合減碳進度需要，務實收費，這樣才能按目標減碳，也才能讓企業負擔得起。請環境部說明根據我們訂定的減碳目標，預估初期每年要花多少錢？","建議：部長，我希望碳費定價一定要慎重考量，做好減碳目標所需經費的評估，提出分析與建議，再提給碳費審議會審議，不能像開盲盒，讓審議會空白討論！","Q1-5：部長對外說碳費要越快上路越好，請問部長預定何時開始收費？","建議：本席認為事關整體產業競爭力與減碳步驟，更與國家能源政策息息相關，應該要考量周全再推動，千萬不能急。","碳費優惠費率看得到吃不到？","Q1-5：根據環境部提出的自主減量優惠費率，企業未來10年必須達成削減的排碳量，鋼鐵業為25.2%、水泥業22.3%，其他行業為42%。也就是排碳減量每年必須達到4.2%，才可以享有優惠費率，請問部長您認為這個目標在500多家必須徵收碳費的大公司中，有多少廠商可以達到每年4.2%？","Q1-6：根據上月初今周刊報導，全球最大「碳揭露計畫組織（CDP）」所做的企業減碳策略評鑑，我國有日月光投控、台達電、聯電及台塑拿到雙A級，其中台塑企業共有五家是雙A級、二家公司拿到A級，但是根據週刊揭露，即使是台塑集團這種減碳策略已通過CDP評鑑的資優生，也達不到十年42%減碳目標，他們認為10年20%、每年2%才是合理的目標值，並且減碳1%就應該給予優惠獎勵，換句話說我們訂了一個不可能的減碳目標，將無助於企業推動減碳，因此針對優惠碳費的削減目標值，應該再與業界溝通。請問部長同不同意？","議題二：爭取補助苗栗縣重大建設","部長，這十個案件（圖二），是苗栗縣爭取許久的廢棄物處理的重大計畫，尤其是第一項及第二項，分別是「苗栗縣一般廢棄物處理整體園區再生規劃及環境影響評估暨苗栗BOT焚化廠後續營運專案計畫補助計畫」需要5,500萬元，第二項「栗縣苗栗市垃圾衛生掩埋場整理整頓補助計畫」需要1億4,614萬元。","由於苗栗縣市財政困難地區，在這裡提出來，希望部長可以專案協助，給予補助。","（圖三）"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","新任環境部長彭啓明於5月21日在「環境部業務展望」記者會提出了上任三大重點政策：","(1)加速碳費法制作業，讓棍子、蘿蔔一起發揮作用。","(2)務實改善空氣品質，朝世界衛生組織（WHO）目標邁進。","(3)持續精進環評審查措施。","是否能具體說明環境部相關政策落實想法？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（12時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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彭部長。請彭部長。央委員好。對。部長我就是年紀大於很多的羊羊。部長剛剛講了"},{"start":27.615,"end":48.974,"text":"環境部大概就是有一點環境氣候部的味道了所以我就先跟部長談一下減碳的問題其實我們減碳他大概需要多管齊下包括林地的保護"},{"start":52.433,"end":75.195,"text":"注目的種植、發展綠能、減少廢棄物包括資源循環等等都必須要去做聯合國在去年底有示警就是2030年必須要減少42%的碳排放才能夠將全球暖化"},{"start":76.772,"end":91.162,"text":"的狀況下的情況控制在升溫1.5度這個還蠻嚴重的但是我們環境部目前的目標是到2030年減少25%到28%跟42%其實差距還蠻大的部長有沒有什麼"},{"start":105.967,"end":119.654,"text":"國際上大概是40幾到50左右那當然這個東西有些國家定了不見得達得到所以我一直想我一直也會跟很多人談到說其實我參加聯合國會議這麼多次其實也觀察到"},{"start":120.575,"end":120.615,"text":"國際的標準"},{"start":138.379,"end":160.269,"text":"而且部長還有一個問題就是當然每一個國家定的標準包括每一個他定的標準都不一定可以達到年份以什麼年為減碳的標準都不一樣對不對那其實我們定的也不一定就一定可以達到沒錯對不對沒錯所以"},{"start":162.635,"end":176.846,"text":"我提這個就是希望提醒部長我們已經算是跟聯合國市警的趴數已經算是相對低了我們務必要在2030打到"},{"start":180.668,"end":207.045,"text":"24加減1也好25到28也好就是盡可能的這個有關大氣的氣候變化所以這個可能在部長任內應該要努力去做那其實減少碳排有一個很重要的關鍵就是再生能源的發展"},{"start":208.39,"end":215.355,"text":"可是我們就是說國際能源總署建議假如說要在2050"},{"start":217.501,"end":230.651,"text":"當然部長剛剛講的本席是認同的就是說這是一個理想一個目標可是我們還是以2050來做論述假如說要在2050完成淨零碳排的話2030必須要有60%的電能是屬於再生能源"},{"start":240.848,"end":267.376,"text":"可是根據經濟部的能源署統計2023年就到去年臺灣不到10%的電力是再生能源發電所以這些資料都告訴我們其實臺灣要距離淨零碳排是還有很長的路要走因為綠能發展的部分可能以"},{"start":268.496,"end":294.899,"text":"以經濟部為主你這邊可能也只是配合那部長你對於上任以後近鄰碳排的中長期目標是什麼怎麼落實有什麼想法嗎?報告委員其實我們這個環境部在整個近鄰碳排有12項關鍵戰略裡面只有兩個一個是近鄰綠生活還有一個就是資源循環的部分那這個在裡面說真的是比較小"},{"start":295.279,"end":322.707,"text":"但是有一個責任卻是在我們身上我們必須要控管全球的我們全台灣的這個溫室氣體的減碳的這個目標所以這件事情委員可能給我壓力可是又是在各個部會所以我會積極的跟各個部會來協商尤其是我們下半年要訂2026到2030年真的管制目標所以說真的這個壓力蠻大的那這個都需要跨部會的一直不斷的跟各個部會來討論希望你可以靠一點這個的確是一個很艱鉅的任務"},{"start":326.329,"end":349.429,"text":"我覺得新內閣在於橫向的協調跟合作上真的是必須要做到很落實單看各個部會大概都是戰力都還夠可是橫向的溝通協調合作只要做得不好整體因為很少有單有一個事件"},{"start":350.209,"end":370.666,"text":"是單一部會,重大事件是單一部會自己做的。所以這個部長還是要...那部長剛剛講到近零轉型的12項關鍵戰略,那我就直接跳到這一題。就是我們有一個資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":379.611,"end":406.947,"text":"十二項戰略裡面有一項戰略那我就麻煩部長跟我們部裡面的同仁就我看到的資料長期以來一樣是離島線可是金門的資源回收率常常基於全國的前三名可是澎湖卻是後半端"},{"start":408.397,"end":432.311,"text":"這個能不能請部裡面跟縣府做一下溝通或者是做一下輔導來提高縣府的資源回收率這個牽扯到兩個大的呢他影響到我們我們淨零轉型那小的呢就是資源回收"},{"start":433.396,"end":460.081,"text":"在澎湖離島又比較特殊部長離島目前的垃圾都是運回來臺灣那個成本是很高的所以我說我提這個問題大會影響到淨零轉型小會影響到我們的預算支出這個能不能請部裡面跟"},{"start":463.894,"end":474.405,"text":"這個包委員其實我們過去在包含屏東的垃圾轉運回台這個部分我們環境部都有補助一年大概5000萬我知道我知道我現在不是講補助的部分就是資源回收回收率為什麼一樣是離島縣金門"},{"start":479.875,"end":480.215,"text":"我們請資源選手來協助輔導。"},{"start":506.684,"end":532.636,"text":"市長不好意思再最後一個問題就是環境部現在對於公共污水下水道量能比較不普及的非都市地區然後在水體具有水質影響敏感的河段或海域有推動示範"},{"start":534.191,"end":534.452,"text":"示範場協力的一個計畫"},{"start":540.585,"end":567.706,"text":"我有先問過就是這個計畫是屬於競爭型的沒錯競爭型我能不能請部長研究看看就是由離島先行來推動因為競爭型的離島因為礙於公務部門的人力的問題所以通常競爭不過所以能不能那澎湖四面都是海"},{"start":569.178,"end":582.616,"text":"而我們也一直在海洋環境的保護上下了很多功夫可不可以請部長這個演繹一下在全國競爭型以外"},{"start":584.076,"end":599.419,"text":"我們澎湖先讓你們當成示範區也好、試驗區也好我們先在澎湖找一個島來做做看好不好?好沒問題 這個我們會跟澎湖環保局來討論看看"},{"start":599.96,"end":600.1,"text":"謝謝楊曜委員"},{"start":628.72,"end":632.634,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員陳昭芝、邱正楠"}]}},{"id":"152846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d0d3e9d351031bdd488b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20175bacb8e37d1ca6875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:45:19 - 12:52:51","影片長度":"00:07:32","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":452,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:52:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時45分）請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["吳委員春城：主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：我是台灣民眾黨的吳春城，我在立法院2月1號開議以來大概只有談一個單一話題就叫壯世代，針對臺灣高齡化社會的問題。臺灣高齡化這個問題過去大家都覺得是衛福部的事情，大概80%的預算都擺在衛福部，其他部會都不重視，有的話也是蜻蜓點水而且都是配合衛福部，因為部長你剛上任，不要給你太大壓力，讓你適應一下，所以主要是我要讓主委瞭解，就前面三個多月我們已經跟金管會所進行的一些討論的事情來跟你報告一下，讓你明瞭。","首先就是這一個概念，臺灣往前30年最重要是民主化，現在民主已經沒有太大問題了，不要再鬧了；往後30年最重要的就是人口學的問題，高齡化、少子化，這個問題有解決好，所有事情都白做了！請主委看這個圖，在1970年代我們人口圖長這個樣子，年齡中位數19.3歲；2040年人口圖長這個樣子，年齡中位數52歲；1970年65歲以上占人口2.9%；2040年占30.1%，10倍！可以說是天翻地覆！但是我非常驚訝的發現，我們所有的部會都停留在1970年代，用1970年代這個想像圖在規劃我們的政策，所有的政策都會出問題！","所以每一個部會都在歧視高齡，像勞動部有中高齡就業法，我問部長中高齡是指幾歲？他說45歲。我說這個太離譜了！對不對？出國念書回來都已經40歲了，工作幾年就輔導待退。","所以所有的部門，包括交通部、包括教育部，教育部高齡的預算只占教育部預算的0.2%、文化部也是0.2%、數位部……幾乎各部會都把這一群人當做沒看見。但是OK，在這裡把所有的問題都推給衛福部。","我從金融的角度做這個四個象限圖，從高資產跟高現金流可以把高齡者分成這四個象限，第二象限這裡是有高資產又高現金流的人，現在這種人……我想金管會所謂的壯世代是指55＋，55＋以上的人大概掌握臺灣三分之二的財富，所有財富在他們手上；但是我們想像的這一群人是又貧又窮又困又弱，需要福利、需要社會福利、需要很多的扶助，為什麼？因為所有錢都被你們金管會凍結了。你們把它凍結了，讓他沒有用啊，所以就沒有這個產業啊！所以對於這一些當然要鼓勵，有錢有現金要鼓勵消費。","另外有一種是在第一象限這裡，他有高資產、低現金，這一些錢就幾乎是金管會這邊要努力的目標，這一些錢要怎麼倒流把它流出來。另外像勞動部當然活躍了，最後才是衛福部，因為現在壯世代55＋以上有800萬人了，而且都有選票，是高投票率族群。大家都知道臺灣儲蓄率世界第一，包括我們的保險、我們的不動產全部都在壯世代手中，但是這一些錢要怎麼活化呢？讓我們整個經濟變成一個死水經濟，就全部凍結在這裡，經濟部也都沒有在發展，大家都沒有在開發這一塊，都把它視為理所當然的只要財物繼承這樣就好了，只要抽遺產稅就好了。OK，所以我推出了一個叫壯世代，一個字改變一個世代，欠缺一個……那這一個我已經如火如荼推動了三年，現在進來國會裡面積極的推動，基本上各部會都推動過了，幾乎都高度支持，希望金管會能夠重視這一塊。","我在3月19號跟陳建仁院長總質詢的時候，他承諾兩件事情，要請金管會建立壯世代金融行動方案，我在看你們的報告書裡面也有提到，再提醒這當時是院長跟黃前主委承諾我的東西，所以要繼續承接下來，透過比照綠色金融的方式，來推動壯世代金融行動方案。還有上市櫃公司高齡社會永續發展路徑，上次藉由正式公文給我的回應是……回覆都說在規劃跟積極的準備中了，而且是看起來蠻認真的高齡金融方案，還有透過資金面、商品面、培力面、生態系各個方面認真，也希望主委能夠繼續督導，共同的把本來高齡化是一場銀髮海嘯，變成國家發展的動力，在這裡金管會扮演非常動力的一部分。","我最近在讀一本書是我們台灣金融研訓院黃崇哲院長的著作，他也在座，我剛剛去跟他打招呼，他的理念跟這個非常好，他說……這是我剛剛的標題「金融是穿越未來的時光機」，我覺得他是一個浪漫的人，但是的確很有道理，時光機就是把未來的災難可以把它拉到現在來處理，你現在不處理，那個直線發展那個災難就必然發生，所以這必須要透過金融的手段，所以最後看到現在我在立法院成立「壯世代政策及產業發展促進會」，有63個立委加入，3個黨黨鞭都是我的副會長，有200位專家學者加入，大家不分黨派的一同來推動壯世代，成立會就在這個會場，所以未來在金融方面，要拜託主委給我們多多的支持，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝我們吳春城委員，謝謝。","接著我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.24534375,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.89034375,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.71721875,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.56471875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.27284375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.49159375,"end":35.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.83971875,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.74721875,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.73284375,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.49221875,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":79.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.78221875,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.23159375,"end":93.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.27784375,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.90034375,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.65034375,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.97221875,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.36846875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.57034375,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.28221875,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.20909375000002,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.12034375000002,"end":171.44721875000002},{"speaker":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讓他沒有用啊 所以就沒有這個產業啊所以對於這一些呢 這個當然要鼓勵 有錢、有現金的要鼓勵消費另外有一種在第一項線這裡 他有高資產他要遞現金"},{"start":242.682,"end":268.375,"text":"那這一錢都幾乎是競管會這邊要努力的目標這一錢怎麼倒流把它流出來另外一項勞動部當然活躍了最後才是衛福部因為這一些現在已經有800萬人壯士代55家以上有800萬人了而且都有選票 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外銷的比例只有一層"},{"start":274.514,"end":288.916,"text":"：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":290.086,"end":303.972,"text":"韓國 我們也真的差蠻多英國 也差蠻多所以部長在我們整個文化產業我們要如何的來提升這個競爭力因為我們推估了"},{"start":305.792,"end":329.144,"text":"國發會給你推估全國總人口數呢到159年他會減了大概二到三成所以內需會少人但是我們外推又不到一成在這樣情況之下這個挑戰是蠻大的所以我們要怎麼樣來協助我們的文創產業可以提升他的國際競爭力部長基本上你一定要找到台灣本身跟人家不同的"},{"start":335.087,"end":335.387,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":352.616,"end":354.378,"text":"這個才可以蓬勃發展嗎?"},{"start":354.378,"end":367.632,"text":"這個論點認得嗎?沒有錯,因為我們跨出一步就是要世界第一對,所以剛剛你也回答說你希望由產業來發展但是部長,你現在是部長了,我們有資源"},{"start":368.789,"end":389.386,"text":"政府有資源要怎麼樣去支援分配這個推動很重要 對不對 對不對所以我也希望你將文創產業要如何提升國際競爭力你也請順便資料方案給本席好不好最後一個議題因為是延續性的大家非常關心黃牛票的問題"},{"start":390.731,"end":414.8,"text":"在歷任的部長本席都一直一直一直的跟部長在討論所以部長各類的詐騙犯罪層出不窮那我們文化部這邊打詐準備好了嗎當時我們討論出在你接的上任說一個月內邀請相關單位來討論我們也希望"},{"start":415.751,"end":427.721,"text":"也希望您接續上來這個議題黃流票的議題因為本期不希望在我們的藝術文化還染到了這個詐騙哇 這個讓人家會傷心啊 對不對部長是 這個事情文化藝術不能如此嘛我們5月23日會召開跨部會的一個協調 這個事情我們一定要想辦法解決"},{"start":439.144,"end":461.75,"text":"五月二十三號我們也希望能夠討論出這個方案我們希望黃牛票的亂象要消失還給我們藝術文化一個非常乾淨的一個空間 對不對所以我們也期待五月二十三號所以我們希望今年才開始的常態化的文化幣"},{"start":463.046,"end":483.37,"text":"：楊瓔"}]}},{"id":"152844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d205513005a8beac53a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017e8786ddbee0d12f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:39:16 - 12:47:40","影片長度":"00:08:24","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":504,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:47:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:39:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1116,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時39分）謝謝主席，是不是請國發會副主委。"],["主席：請國發會副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。副主委，今天想先跟副主委討論這個就業金卡，就業金卡是針對外國的一些專業人士，他們可以去申請包括他們工作許可、居留簽證、外僑居留證跟重入國許可證等證件，這個金卡的效力就是三年，外僑居留證可以到五年，五年以上未曾入國者就可以廢止其永久居留許可，我想要請教的是，為什麼要訂五年以上未曾入國的規定呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這個應該是入出國移民法裡面的相關規定，過去是五年內每年平均要到一百八十三天，現在我們在這個法裡面是放寬到只要他在五年內有一次入境，我們就不會廢止他的永久居留許可，因為我們這個法基本上是一個特別法，其實有些規定還是要回歸到入出國移民法和就服法等一般法的相關規範。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，可是既然已經給他永久居留了，名稱已經把它叫做「永久居留」，然後你又說五年內沒有入境就要廢止其永久居留，這樣就沒有永久居留的概念了啊！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：它不是永久……如果你取得就業金卡的話，目前針對取得永居的時間，我們已經把它縮短成三年，三年中間如果你有博士學位的話，你可以折抵一年，也就是說，你就算取得就業金卡，還是要有兩年的居留期間，你才可以取得永居，並不是一進來就可以。"],["蔡委員易餘：我現在講的是取得永居之後，就是他已經有永居的資格了，但你還是規定他五年內要入國一次。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就是所有取得永居的人……"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣跟永居的概念不會背道而馳嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所有其他國家的法令也都是這個樣子，也就是說，就算你取得美國綠卡，你可能還是需要在這個國家有一些居留的事實，所以我們入出國移民法裡面已經規範在五年內平均要有一百八十三天，而在這個法裡面，我們已經放寬到如果是就業金卡的話，你只要五年內有一次入境，我就不會取消你永居的資格。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這是第一個問題。第二個，我想再請教副主委，一樣是就專業攬才的移民，現在針對專業攬才的移民，你們把它限定在就業服務法第四十六條第一項到第六項，如果我們去思考事實上有很多工廠現在所聘請的移工，他可能已經工作超過十年，而且他的薪水也已經達到一定的程度，已經不是傳統在做低階工作的移工，他已經做十年了，他對整個工廠的運作是熟悉的，甚至他的薪水是高的，但是到了十二年之後，也就是他只要滿十二年，他還是得出國去。事實上，這樣是不是變成臺灣對於這些移工，我們等於一直在替人家、替韓國、替日本栽培基礎的移工，等到他的技術成熟，他就要回去了，這是不是很可惜？所以有沒有可能國發會用上位的思考，我們設定一個條件，不要限定只有一到六款，包括剩下的七、八、九款，他只要達到一定的薪資水平，而且工作年限也達到了多少，讓他一樣可以去走專業的移民，甚至於一樣可以去走就業金卡，有沒有辦法這樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，在我們的移工久用留才方案裡面，其實就針對委員講的，也就是只要在臺灣工作六年以上的移工，他符合這個方案的特定條件，他現在都可以留在臺灣，他取得永居的時間就比照一般專業人才是五年。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以現在就可以嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：現在就可以。"],["蔡委員易餘：六年以上就可以？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：現在已經有兩萬多個移工用這個方案取得留在臺灣的資格了。"],["蔡委員易餘：那它有限定條件嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有一些限制條件，包括薪資還有技能的條件。"],["蔡委員易餘：就薪資來講，我想就會變成如果雇主真的有心要留下這個移工，對他來說重要，那麼雇主就要去考量嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：那其他的條件呢？技術條件？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有一些相關的技術條件，要取得一些技術的證照，除了證照，還有薪資，然後會視產業別跟社福有差別。基本上就產業別，他的經常性薪資只要3.3萬元以上，僑外生只要首聘3萬元就可以了，然後總薪資要到達50萬。至於技術條件的話，他需要有一些……"],["蔡委員易餘：我要問的是這一些移工他們怎麼去取得證照？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們會輔導他，就是說如果產業、企業想要把現在的移工留下來，我們會有相關輔導，輔導他從事技能檢定等等，我們會協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，最後再問一個問題，因為你們延攬外國人才的誘因當中有一個叫做租稅優惠，租稅優惠是針對首次來臺的外國特定專業人士，首次的這個概念在實務上一直都有很多人在爭議，怎樣叫做首次？如果他之前有來臺灣工作過，過了幾年之後再次來這樣可以叫做首次嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的，就是不允許，一定是要首次。"],["蔡委員易餘：就不允許？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，目前我們要吸引新的外國專業人才來。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個首次是怎樣叫做首次啊？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果他已經來過，就不能適用這個。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊，但這樣就會有一個問題，他可能之前來的時候……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是沒有這個優惠。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊，現在我要聘請他來，但卻沒有這樣的優惠。就是說關於這個首次，我要問的是，你們這樣的租稅優惠訂了首次的限制，到底目的是什麼？事實上是沒有必要的嘛，只要他願意來、願意留在臺灣工作，我覺得既然有這樣的優惠，就讓他可以適用這樣的優惠啊！只是優惠的時間點你們要把它抓緊一點，就是說到底優惠時間是多久……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你一直在抓這個首次，變成之前來過的，後來再來就不適用這一條，我覺得這樣也有不合理的地方。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想這會涉及跟財政部的相關協商，針對委員所提的這個意見，在下次修法的時候，針對首次的定義，我們再參考委員的意見，然後做一個全盤的檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，接下來請鄭正鈐委員發言。我們中午不休息，各位同仁及部會長官如果肚子餓可以自己先行用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.59784375,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.25971875,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.250968750000002,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":28.988468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.37659375,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.557218750000004,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.26846875000001,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.07721875,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.16971875,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.60846875,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.89409375000001,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.95284375000001,"end":122.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.69534375,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.48534375,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.73784375,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.46346875,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.77971875,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.13346875000002,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.90096875,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.12034375000002,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.37284375000002,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.25846875000002,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.30034375000002,"end":195.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.47721875000002,"end":201.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.97409375,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.58659375000002,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.96596875,"end":227.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.96909375,"end":250.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.97909375,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.82596875,"end":287.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.71596875,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.54221875,"end":305.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.56971875,"end":306.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.13909375000003,"end":310.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.37471875,"end":323.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.44534375,"end":319.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.44096875,"end":321.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.19971875000005,"end":330.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.96659375,"end":332.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.22784375000003,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.66659375,"end":333.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.95346875,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.30784375,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.74659375000005,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.35409375,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.99909375000004,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.94784375,"end":344.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.56346875,"end":347.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.56284375,"end":349.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.03534375000004,"end":354.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.81096875000003,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.36784375,"end":355.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.86971875,"end":357.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.24096875000004,"end":357.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.35909375,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.99971875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.46721875000003,"end":368.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.80034375,"end":374.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.38159375000004,"end":375.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.44909375000003,"end":375.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.49971875,"end":378.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.51659375,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.30846875000003,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.96221875000003,"end":398.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.95596875,"end":400.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.86284375,"end":401.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蔡易餘"},{"start":94.324,"end":118.143,"text":"有入境我就不會廢止他的永久居留許可因為我們這個法基本上是一個特別法那其實有些相關的規定還是要回歸到入庫和移民法、拯救服法的一般法的相關規範對可是他竟然已經給他永久居留了嘛是已經名稱把它叫做永久居留那你又說你五年內沒有入境"},{"start":119.984,"end":146.354,"text":"那你就要廢止永久居留,那這樣就沒有永久居留的概念了。就是說如果你取得就業金卡的話,目前就是你取得永居的時間,我們已經把它縮短成三年了。三年中間如果你有博士學位的話,你可以折頂一年。也就是說你就算取得就業金卡,你還是要有兩年的居留期間,你才可以取得永居。對,那我現在講的是取得永居之後。"},{"start":146.894,"end":154.56,"text":"對就是所有取得永居的人這樣跟永居的概念不會背道而馳吧對所有的其他國家的法令也都是這個樣子就是就算你取得美國的綠卡你可能也需要"},{"start":172.754,"end":172.854,"text":"蔡易餘"},{"start":196.036,"end":218.898,"text":"好那這第一個齁那第二個我想再請教這個副主委齁一樣是就就這樣的一個移民齁就專業攬才的移民那你們現在專業攬才的移民齁你們就把他限在就業服務法46條第一項到第六項那我指的是說如果我們去思考啦齁"},{"start":219.719,"end":220.64,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":236.152,"end":258.78,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":259.04,"end":261.821,"text":"蔡易餘﹚蔡易餘﹚蔡易餘﹚蔡易餘﹚蔡易餘﹚蔡易餘﹚蔡易餘﹚"},{"start":287.751,"end":310.613,"text":"那跟委員報告齁,的確其實我們在我們的移工流財移工久用流財方案裡面其實就針對委員講的其實你只要在6年以上的在台灣工作6年以上的那個移工他符合這個方案的特定的條件他現在都可以"},{"start":311.391,"end":311.651,"text":"那他有限定條件嗎?"},{"start":335.43,"end":353.726,"text":"有一些限制條件,薪資還有技能的條件。薪資我想就變成說,如果僱主真的有心要去留下這個移工,對他來說重要,這僱主要去考量嗎?是的。那其他的條件,技術條件?有一些相關技術條件,要取得一些技術的證照吧。"},{"start":355.435,"end":356.256,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":375.424,"end":376.465,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":402.748,"end":430.772,"text":"最後再問一個因為你們的這個延攬外國人才誘因有一個叫做租稅優惠租稅優惠是針對首次來台的外國特定專業人士那這個首次的這個概念一直在實務上是很多人在爭議怎樣叫做首次如果他是說之前有來台灣工作過那他過了幾年後再次來這樣可以叫做首次嗎是的就不允許一定是要首次"},{"start":432.167,"end":453.646,"text":"對就不允許對是目前對我們要吸引新的外國人所以這個首次是怎樣叫做首次啊他就是如果他曾經已經來過就不能適用這個是啊啊這樣就會有一個問題嘛他可能之前來的時候是沒有這個對啊那現在他想要說啊我要聘請他來啊卻沒有這樣的就是說這個首次"},{"start":455.18,"end":484.361,"text":"我要問的說你們這樣的一個租稅優惠訂了這個首次到底目的是什麼事實上是沒有必要的嘛只要他願意來願意留在台灣工作我覺得說既然有這樣的優惠那就就讓他可以去進行這樣的優惠啊只是優惠的時間點你們把它抓緊一點就是說到底你的優惠時間是多久那你一直在抓這個首次變成說之前來過的後來再來就不適用這一條我覺得這樣也有它不合理的地方"},{"start":484.741,"end":484.841,"text":"蔡易餘委員"}]}},{"id":"152843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d7fcb512515250d1b88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20173d61ecffa071dd515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:37:11 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12:45:04","影片長度":"00:07:53","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":473,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:45:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:37:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時37分）謝謝主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委好。我知道你上任今天才第二天，如果等一下本席所詢問的一些事情您在業務部分還沒有完全熟悉的話，可以讓其他出席的局處署長來協助。"],["彭主任委員金隆：非常謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：我想金管會對於金融秩序的監理過去其實一直都是非常重要的，我比較關注的今天就先講銀行貸款的部分。前面其實也有聽到一些委員在關心，就是有關於融資公司到底要不要納入金管會來管理，但是最近許多新聞事件頻傳，銀行利用……應該是說民眾或者是法人用不動產來跟銀行借款的時候，為什麼會出現超貸的情況？像這些都是不勝枚舉，包括是不是因為原因就出在球員兼裁判？因為今天時間有限，我就只是把這些新聞的標題拿出來，不多做細數，但是會不會其實銀行的貸款就是有關係就安心貸，如果沒關係就好難貸？我們其實都會發現如果今天拿資產去貸款的時候，有人可能50年以上的老屋可以貸個八成以上、甚至於九成，還可以貸到裝潢費：而有些人甚至於是即使房子在那裡、同樣的條件，但他貸不出來，加上他的年紀如果不符合銀行的潛規則，比如75、85，他連貸的能力都沒有，那麼這個會不會是一種所謂球員兼裁判？也就是銀行自己決定今天來貸款的人到底他的關係如何。我想請問的就是我們如何讓一般真的本身就有貸款能力的人不要進入到所謂的融資公司、進入吸血的地獄。我不知道主委知不知道，其實內政委員會今天在審查一個法案是不動產估價師法的修正，剛剛會議可能已經結束了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：抱歉，我沒有掌握到。"],["林委員楚茵：好，沒有問題。看下一張，我希望主委能夠關注這個事情，我們都知道銀行在做融資的過程當中對於不動產會有一些房屋條件的估價，但是如果你要避免有人因為有關係就安心貸、沒關係就好難貸，最後只好去找這個融資公司，進入吸血地獄，那麼是不是在這樣的審核過程當中，銀行的審核必須要有所謂關鍵的第三人來確保授信的品質？這個其實過去4年我在這裡不只一次的呼籲，希望金管會要重視這個部分。請幫我回到PowerPoint第1頁，前面有人有關係借得到，一屋還可以短期內三貸，然後銀行內部也常常出現內鬼來詐貸，這些狀況是不是可以透過公正的第三方來做處理呢？主委，比如讓銀行能夠有所謂不動產估價師，我會提到今天內政委員會的修法是因為希望透過修法讓不動產估價師的助理能夠有一個合理化的名份，銀行或是金融機構如果沒有一個常駐的不動產估價師，那麼至少可以有一個不動產估價師的助理，這個是不是一個解決銀行球員兼裁判，要不超貸被發現、要不就是沒關係好難貸、或者是他的條件不夠好，但是也許未來的規劃上面有機會還是符合還款能力的時候，他能不要進入融資公司的受害者、進入吸血地獄。我知道主委你有點子王之稱，我的提問有沒有可能評估或有沒有可能有一個方向來做了解？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員您剛才說到的，其實我覺得專業又透明的資訊對於交易安全絕對有很大的幫助。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才也跟局長簡單討論一下，未來我們可以朝這個、比如一定金額以上能不能跟剛才講的更公正客觀的資訊團體來做一個合作，讓整個交易更趨近於公平。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為本席在過去幾年的質詢當中，銀行不論是公股行庫或者是金融機構都常常說：有，我們都有自己的評估、我們都很專業。但是只要高層一通電話，又或者是今天看到來借款的這個單位或者是這個個人他有比較好的背景，那可能就有機會被上下其手。像這個部分我也希望主委能夠真的承諾，讓真的客觀公正的第三方在一定的案子當中能夠讓資訊更透明。","最後一點時間我們來看下一張，就是本席也非常關注的有關漂綠的部分，我們都知道主委對ESG也非常重視，到底如何來防範漂綠呢？我手頭上現在是知道金管會跟環境部正在針對金融機構防範漂綠有出了一些指引，但是我們都知道金融機構到底有沒有辦法針對來進行融資的單位所融資的項目是真綠、還是假綠、又或者是漂綠？這個過程當中雖然有指引，但是指引的方向都只是一個目標性，有沒有可能有更具體的方向，而這個方向能夠讓金融機構跟它的往來的企業能夠有一個更合理的方式，而不是指引只是一種感覺。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有錯，未來對永續或綠色大家都非常的關注，我們站在監理機關立場對這個東西也是非常注意，所以我們最近訂了一個規範，我可以請我們的同仁胡處長來跟您回答好嗎？謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["胡處長則華：跟委員報告，我們針對金融業防漂綠的指引部分是針對金融業對外宣稱的時候可能有的一些注意事項，至於譬如銀行，假設它要接受它的客戶的時候，其實他們會做相關的盡職治理，譬如像現在有些銀行會發綠色的授信或者是永續連結貸款，其實我們都有要求他們要遵守國際上有一個包含綠色授信的原則等等之類的，所以其實它自己內部會有一個審核的流程，是可以儘量避免這種企業漂綠的狀況。"],["林委員楚茵：主席，最後我只一句話，就是我希望這些規範能夠符合國際上的規章跟需求，好嗎？其他更詳細的資料再請金管會提供給我的辦公室。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好的，可以，沒有問題。謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝林楚茵委員。","接著請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在場。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在場。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在場。","請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.570343750000001,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.704718750000001,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.06971875,"end":22.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.769718750000003,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.355968750000002,"end":43.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.455968750000004,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.159093750000004,"end":89.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.19409375000001,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.76096875,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.00971875,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.39346875000001,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.45659375000001,"end":141.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.67971875,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.22784375,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.59034375000002,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.370343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邱志偉邱志偉"}]}},{"id":"152842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dfe78af1dc9e580686fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d20172b7308b733e54c075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"12:37:42 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12:42:31","影片長度":"00:16:36","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":996,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:42:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:25:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1102,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，你算是第二任的環境部部長，先向你恭喜，然後也請教部長，前一任的薛部長就職差不多一年的時間，環境部之前就是環保署，為什麼要把環保署升格成為環境部，部長知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道的是，之前有環境資源部，是更多、更廣泛的，然後升格成環境部，當然它就必須在業務職掌裡面能夠跟更多職員有一個合作，所以目前就環境部來說，包含他們的職能、職掌，還有預算都有顯著的提升。"],["劉委員建國：可以具體、簡單、扼要、重點式的說明嗎？為什麼要把環保署提升、升格為環境部？"],["彭部長啓明：當然我認為這是責任的開始，因為環境部必須做的工作就比以前的署還要來得多很多。"],["劉委員建國：多了什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：例如說空、水、廢、土、污要更明確，甚至有加了氣候變遷在裡面，所以我個人認為，環境部已經有一點像是環境與氣候部的這種感覺，跟過去的環保署是完全不一樣的。"],["劉委員建國：我還是期待部長可以再多瞭解一下，並不是責任的開始，原本環保署也有責任，不會說環保署之前沒有責任，現在變環境部才是責任的開始，應該不是這樣，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：你知道環保署變成環境部，是在哪一個召委的時候把它升格起來的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：就是劉委員當召委的時候。"],["劉委員建國：你們為什麼都要這樣笑？開會要尊重一點。","請問部長貴庚？"],["彭部長啓明：我53歲。"],["劉委員建國：比楊委員還年輕很多。為什麼要這麼問，因為我有拜讀你接受媒體的一個採訪，你有特別提到，上任後有一件重要事情，就是要推動環境部的數位轉型，還有高階主管乃至科長都必須上數位轉型的課程，目標是一年後的能力要能夠「被民間挖角」，沒有錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：這是一個理想，要把理想轉成實際的行動，你有去test嗎？我們剛剛講到，已經擴大了這樣一個服務及政策執行的量能，所以針對重要的高階主管，應該是指所謂的司署單位主管，那本來是科長……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長知不知道司署主管平均年齡多少嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果是主管的話，大概是59歲。"],["劉委員建國：所以還大你的年齡有6歲以上，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：然後你還希望他們趕快去進修學習，然後主管要專精相關的數位AI大數據的知識，甚至到一年後的能力要能夠「被民間挖角」。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實他們都很優秀，但是我也發現他們被很多事情綁住，像我自己本身也用到很多AI的工具，所以我希望大家能夠熟悉，甚至主管熟悉了以後，在帶領我們部屬的時候，可以用到更多的工具，讓我們的同仁不要那麼的辛苦，我們是為了要用這種工具為主，至於會不會寫程式，其實現在ChatGPT就會幫我們寫程式了，所以其實各位委員不用那麼擔心，我相信大家有這個能力。"],["劉委員建國：我沒有擔心，而且我也不反對，依照這樣的一個平均年齡，要來讓他們做這些事情，坦白講，如果願意自我提升，然後願意再進化自己，當然是好事一樁。","但是我要讓部長看一個數據，這是公務人員近三年離職的人數，不含退休跟解僱，109年是1,969人、110是2,192人，一直到111年是2,469人，去年的數字至今還沒有出來，為什麼會這個樣子？這是面對到少子化的衝擊，所以如何去招攬比較年輕的人才、留住年輕的人才，這是所有部會要面對的重要課題，這部分的離職率這麼高，然後持續往上攀升，我們部長又期待經過相關的數位轉型課程，讓各位可以一年後的能力能被民間挖才，這個有一點衝突跟矛盾，對與不對見仁見智，但是我只是要讓你知道有這樣的狀況在發生。過去民間人力銀行在做相關分析後發現，曾經被認為鐵飯碗的公職，現在出現這種逃離潮，這是政府必須面對非常重要的課題，包括如何去做相關的因應。所以在部長你的帶領之下，要在環境部中提升數位能力，我想應該要廣泛針對基層人員給予相關進修的資源，改善升遷的環境，反而會比較來得實際，你認不認同？"],["彭部長啓明：其實就我接觸到我的同仁的經驗，舉例來說，我來自民間，我們平常下班就不會LINE來LINE去的，可是我發現我們公部門都很辛苦，我很替他們感到委屈啦！所以我是希望有更好的工具，讓我們在工作上不要那麼的操勞，有一個比較好的生活。另外，希望他們的素養、能力提高，畢竟他們都非常優秀，到民間去可能都是一個高階主管，而且民間的待遇也都很好，所以我個人來說的話，數位轉型就是給他們一個很好的鼓勵，他們具有像民間一樣的才能，所以我認為這是一種鼓勵的措施，有這種公私的交流，當然對於我們政府發展是一件好事。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以我是支持啊！但是可不可以全面去做這樣的思考，尤其是基層的公務人員，更應該給他們更多這樣一個學習的資源跟課程，多多鼓勵！甚至連約聘僱都應該鼓勵他們可以去參與高普考，讓政府可以留住更多人才，甚至在你環境部培訓一段時間，真的有達到這樣一個level的時候，他有被民間挖角的能力的時候，我們也留住一定比例的人才，就不會一直有這種離職人潮出走的狀況。"],["彭部長啓明：我相信離職人潮的部分，除了社會上外面的工作機會比公部門好很多之外，當然還有一些制度上的東西，委員提到的這個建議，其實賴總統，還有現在的卓院長，就是所謂的AI內閣，當然那個不是人工智慧內閣，但是就我所知道的，像卓院長也都去上了AI的課，我們很多部會首長也都在上人工智慧的課，我認為未來每個人都要去學人工智慧、數位轉型，這是必要的。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！所以我支持、我不反對，但是我是覺得應該從基層、從更廣的面向來做，不是只有這些主管級的來面對這樣一個課程的訓練。"],["彭部長啓明：我會從兩個部分來做，一個是主管要學什麼，譬如說我不會要主管他們要會寫程式，他們會進行一些數據分析……"],["劉委員建國：如果局長、署長要寫程式，你也應該讓他們有表現的機會啊！"],["彭部長啓明：他們有的很厲害，我知道啦！"],["劉委員建國：他們也可以直接跟部長一樣來做帶動，但我還是希望給基層、給約聘僱有更多一個學習的資源啦！"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，這個我會來做。"],["劉委員建國：好。另外，我再請教部長，你就任環境部有一個滿大的任務，就是所謂淨零碳排還有碳費的問題，在你接受訪問的時候，你有說碳費進度接下來一定要加速前進，然後也要特別注意氣候變遷形成的通貨膨脹問題，致力不讓其成為社會的負擔，這個非常重要，但是我覺得不是只有「加速」，可能要「立刻」，為什麼？過去我們都在講藍領是勞工階層，白領在坐辦公室，現在出現一種叫做綠領的新名詞，部長應該知道吧？"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["劉委員建國：這是因為氣候變遷因應法以及碳費所產生的新興職業，我們民間現在有自辦的永續管理師、碳資產管理師還有碳交易師等等的認證課程，但是這有經過環境部認證嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實這是屬於他自己的學習，環境部不會去做認證，當然有些可能民眾想要自己學的特別多，我們也都尊重，但是我們提醒民眾要慎選，因為這些課程除了碳的盤查跟驗證，特別是驗證的部分，因為氣候變遷因應法，必須來我們部內受訓之外，其他大多數都是民眾自己去學習的，我們都尊重，但是提醒民眾要慎選。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長提醒民眾要慎選，請問部長，如果要去上課，我該如何慎選？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上這些課程，我個人認為都是一個綠領，我有跟我們同仁討論過，未來這個綠領到最後就業的橋接，是不是有一些更好的建議，這是我們未來可以來思考、來推動的，因為目前上了課也不見得有工作機會，這個就會造成年輕朋友的失望，所以這個部分……"],["劉委員建國：你沒有答復我如何慎選。"],["彭部長啓明：關於慎選，基本上，第一個，要有一個合理的價錢，所以現在目前有一些基金會已經開課了，它是很有歷史的，而且很有公信力的，我就建議可以去；如果有一些可能只是為了要來碳交易，因為我們現在還沒有這樣一個市場環境，那就請民眾要特別注意……"],["劉委員建國：我給部長看了一個案例，好不好？這位陳姓會計師，他有會計師的執照，他已經報名參加民間機構的ESG淨零永續管理師的培訓課程，他付了24萬，事後發現該機構沒有經過國際組織認證，無法核發相關的證照，花了一大筆錢，卻只換來一張結訓證書，無助於轉職，所以他不夠慎選？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯！"],["劉委員建國：沒錯？"],["彭部長啓明：這個東西就是一個結訓證明，因為你去學習這個東西，沒有一個國際的機構會給你這樣的證照。"],["劉委員建國：是，所以他就是不夠慎重，也不夠慎選？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以他當到會計師，還會變成這樣……"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，這個東西其實要看……"],["劉委員建國：第二件案例，森林系大四的王同學想考取淨零碳權相關證照，因為學校無相關課程，所以到外面機構上課拿到上課證明，所以只能安慰自己上課證明至少可以當作求職的敲門磚，所以他也不夠慎選？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，我們國家環境學院、部內都有開放相關的課程，所以像這位大四的同學其實可以來上我們部內相關的課程，也不會花那麼多錢。"],["劉委員建國：所以到你們部內上相關的課程，上完之後，可以有認證？"],["彭部長啓明：有證明。"],["劉委員建國：這也是叫證明，跟陳會計師拿到了證明，道理是一樣的啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們是公部門的證明。"],["劉委員建國：所以公部門的證明就是會超越過民間的證明？"],["彭部長啓明：這其實還是要從它實際上的量能來看，基本上這個是市場機制，像有人去彈鋼琴一個小時一萬塊，有的是一小時五百塊，這個就看個人的需求，我們沒有辦法去限制人家做什麼。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果依你這麼講，你們是公部門，總是優於民間所辦的相關的課程，那會有一窩蜂的人都跑到你們這邊來喔！你們能夠承載嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實有些民間機構辦的課程也非常的不錯，但我們是公部門，例如說我們公部門提供給年輕朋友的價格可能會比較低……"],["劉委員建國：不是！不是！部長，我要跟你表達的應該不是這樣啦！誠如你講的所謂的慎選，像陳會計師這個例子就是他不夠慎重的選擇，才會發生花了24萬，卻只有得到一個所謂的結訓證書，若是來到你們公部門，就不用花到24萬嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不用！"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！那他可以得到什麼跟陳會計師不一樣的證書？"],["彭部長啓明：公部門的……"],["劉院長宗勇：環境部的結業證書……"],["彭部長啓明：結業證書。"],["劉委員建國：你們叫結業證書，他們叫結訓證書，差異就是環境部頒的這個證書優於民間的那一張證書嗎？"],["劉院長宗勇：對……"],["劉委員建國：這還對喔？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這些ESG相關的部分，大家就是一頭熱啦！但是我必須透過委員讓大家知道，目前國際上並沒有一個標準的證書，沒有！當然你可以去拿到一個什麼永續學院發的，那是大學開設的，就是一個碩士的學程……"],["劉委員建國：所以經過這些淨零碳排相關的課程、認證、品質等等，環境部要不要來面對，然後看看如何來做納管？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，兩個部分，一個是ISO的查驗證要符合我們氣候變遷因應法，這個我們其實有納管，例如說我們的查驗證的人員，大概有100多人，那個是有納管的，他要來上課；但如果是去上所謂ESG相關的課程，那就屬於個人自願的學習，當然我們有額外開一個課程，就是關於瞭解淨零或氣候變遷等等的。"],["劉委員建國：就是瞭解，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：上完了就是拿一個結業證書，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯，現在大概都是這樣。"],["劉委員建國：你們跟人家收多少錢？"],["劉院長宗勇：一天1,000塊。"],["劉委員建國：一天1,000塊，總共要上365天？"],["劉院長宗勇：沒有！沒有！我們有五類的班，然後就是兩天到五天的班，是這樣子的。"],["劉委員建國：所以就可以領得結業證書？"],["劉院長宗勇：大學生憑學生證是不用錢，他只要保證金、考試及格就……"],["劉委員建國：所以我拿了這張證書，這是環境部頒給我的，我花了這筆錢之後，我就可以叫做碳交易師，我就可以叫做……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有！沒有！碳交易師，目前沒有這樣的東西，所以基本上要慎選。"],["劉委員建國：不然現在民間有的叫做永續管理師，還有碳資產管理師，還有碳交易師，然後都來你環境部上這些課程，花了三、五天，花了三、五千，之後我是經環境部認證的，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：也不是這樣說……"],["劉委員建國：可以嗎？不然我就直接在我的名片上面寫我是經過環境部認證的什麼師，認證了什麼沒有寫，只有寫經認證……"],["彭部長啓明：我們有開證明而已，沒有認證，因為這個東西要到這樣的水準，則是另外一個像會計師這樣的行業，目前全世界都還沒有針對氣候變遷的一種職業的執照。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以我才希望部長可能要立刻面對這個事情，包括民間所舉辦的相關的課程，跟這樣的一個範圍有關係的，應該要準備予以納管。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實就是臺灣社會對於ESG一頭熱，熱到有點過熱了，所以引發很多民間希望用這個方式來上課……"],["劉委員建國：所以環境部該不該把關？"],["彭部長啓明：我會跟我們同仁來好好討論一下。"],["劉委員建國：他為什麼一直笑？"],["劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告，這個事情因為主要涉及類似以前外面補習班的模式，就大家競爭的關係，才造成這樣的結果，不過，我們開班的目的只是為了提供現在綠領人才需求的殷切，所以我們希望以這個部分去平衡這個市場。至於剛剛部長提的，現在是有幾個機構，未來我們可能會跟他們做一些協商，瞭解大家的運作模式，誠如剛剛部長提到的，這個品質高低事實上是差滿多的。"],["劉委員建國：不是，教育部應該有針對這些補習的場合去做相關的瞭解，甚至人家有在做相關的一些管理，因此，環境部針對淨零碳排相關的這些課程，應該也要擔起相關的責任吧！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我有特別跟我們院長討論到，我們應找一些口碑、聲譽比較好的、做得不錯的，我們一起來研商，希望能夠建立一個好的綠領制度。"],["劉委員建國：要建立一個好的綠領制度，基本上還是要朝向環境部來做相關納管的範疇處理，還是不行？這個要講清楚。"],["彭部長啓明：納管是可以，但是我是建議公私協力讓這個制度能夠稍微完整一點，的確我從民間來，外面是有這些亂象，甚至也有人花了30萬，剛才的24萬還不是最多的，我們的確有發現這樣的情況。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！針對這個事情，因為部長剛就任，而且你又從民間來的，所以更知道這種亂象，那你當了部長之後應該想想如何積極面對這個事情，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我會跟我們院長來研議，再跟委員報告。"],["劉委員建國：好，1個月時間，好不好？可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言。接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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59岁59岁還大你的年齡有6歲以上對不對沒錯沒錯然後你還希望他們趕快的來進修學習然後專管在主管去專精相關的數位AI大數據的知識甚至到一年後還要被民間挖角"},{"start":201.193,"end":226.828,"text":"報告委員其實他們都很優秀但是我也發現他們被很多事情綁住所以其實我自己本身也用到很多AI的工具我希望大家能夠熟悉甚至主管熟悉的時候在帶我們的部署的時候可以用到更多的工具讓我們的同仁不要那麼的辛苦啦我們是要用這種工具為主那至於會不會寫程式其實現在CHPT會幫我們寫程式了所以其實這個各位委員不用那麼擔心我相信大家有這個能力"},{"start":227.284,"end":251.545,"text":"我沒有擔心而且我也不反對依照這樣的一個平均年齡要來讓他們做這些事情坦白講如果願意自我提升然後願意自己再進化自己那當然是好事一樁但是我要讓部長看一個數據你知道這一個公務員員建三年離職的人數不然退休跟解雇"},{"start":252.406,"end":269.834,"text":"一百零九年是一九六九一一年是二一九二一直到一百一十一年是二四六九那去年還沒有出來那為什麼會這個樣子你們面對到少子化的衝擊如果要要如何去招攬比較年輕留住年輕的人才這是所有部會面對到重要的課題"},{"start":271.655,"end":295.99,"text":"這離職率這麼高然後持續晚上再攀升那我們部長又期待經過相關的這些數位轉型的課程讓各位可以一年後被民間挖財嘛這個有點衝突跟矛盾啦對與不對見仁見智但是我只是要讓你知道有這樣的狀況在發生所以過去民間的利益銀行在做相關的分析嘛就是說被認為這個鐵飯碗的公子現在出現這種逃離潮"},{"start":299.602,"end":319.936,"text":"這是在政府必須面對非常重要的課題要如果去做相關的因應所以在部長你的帶領之下要將這個數位能力納入這個環境部中我想應該是應該要廣泛的針對基層人員基於相關的進修的這個資源改善這種升遷的環境反而會比較來得實際你認不認同"},{"start":321.537,"end":350.331,"text":"報告委員其實我接觸到我的同仁我舉例我來自民間我們平常下班就不會賴來賴去的可是我發現我們公部門都很辛苦我都很為他們委屈啦所以我是希望有更好的工具讓我們工作上不要那麼的操勞有一個比較好的生活那另外一個就是說其實他們的素養能力提高他們都非常優秀到民間去都是一個高階主管而且民間的待遇也都很好所以我個人來說的話數位轉型就是給他們一個很好的鼓勵他們具有像民間一樣的這個才能"},{"start":350.771,"end":368.565,"text":"所以這個是我是認為是一種鼓勵的措施那有這種公司的這種交流當然對於我們政府發展是一個好事對所以我支持啦齁我是支持但是是不是可以在全面的去做這樣的思考尤其是基層的公文員更應該給他們更多這樣學習的一個資源跟課程嘛多多鼓勵嘛"},{"start":369.385,"end":388.379,"text":"甚至連約聘顧的都應該鼓勵他們可以去參與高普考嘛讓政府可以留住更多人才嘛甚至於在你環境部培訓一段時間真的有達到這樣的一個level的時候他被民間挖角的時候那我們也留住了相關的一定的比例所以就不會這種離子人潮一直在出走嘛"},{"start":389.439,"end":415.286,"text":"這個我相信離職人潮除了一個社會上外面的工作機會比公部門好很多之外當然還有一些制度上的東西那委員提到的這個建議其實賴總統現在卓院長就是AI內閣當然那個不是人工智慧內閣但是其實現在我所知道的像卓院長也都去上了AI的課我們很多的部位都在上這個人工智慧的課所以這個是我認為未來是每個人都要去學人工智慧數位轉型這是必要的"},{"start":415.936,"end":436.149,"text":"對啦 所以我支持嘛我不反對但是我是覺得說從基層的應該從更廣的面向不是只有這些主管級來面對這樣的一個課程的一個訓練嘛我會從兩個一個是主管要學什麼例如說主管我不會要他們寫程式他們會進行一些數據如果人家他們要寫局長、署長要寫你也應該讓他們有這個表現的機會啊"},{"start":437.27,"end":465.229,"text":"他們有的很厲害我知道啦他們可以直接跟部長一樣來帶動嘛但是我還是希望給基層的給約聘顧的有更多這樣的一個學習的資源啦好不好好沒問題這個我會來做好那另外一個齁我再請教部長你上任這個環境部一個蠻大的任務嘛就所謂的淨零碳排和碳匯的問題嘛對不對那你接受訪問的時候你說碳匯進度接下來一定要加速前進啦齁然後也要特別注意氣候變遷行程的通貨膨脹問題"},{"start":467.47,"end":493.397,"text":"來自於不會成為社會的負擔這非常重要但是我覺得不是只有加速可能要立刻為什麼我們講過去都在講說這個藍領的勞工階層白領在做辦公室嘛那現在出現了一種叫做綠領綠領的新名詞部長應該知道吧知道好這個齁就是氣候變遷的因應法以及碳會所產生的這個新興的職業然後民間現在有置辦叫永續管理師碳製程"},{"start":501.468,"end":501.488,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":512.902,"end":540.199,"text":"這個其實他是屬於自己的學習啦那環境部不會去做認證當然有些可能民眾想要自己學的特別多我們都尊重但是我們提醒民眾要慎選因為這個課程除了是說碳的盤查跟驗證特別是驗證的部分因為氣候變遷因應法必須來我們這個部內去受訓之外其他大多數都是這個民眾自己去學習的那我們都尊重但是提醒民眾要慎選"},{"start":541.303,"end":542.213,"text":"謝謝部長提醒民眾要勝選"},{"start":544.003,"end":571.332,"text":"請問部長如果我要去上我該如何慎選其實基本上這些課程我個人認為都是一個綠領那未來我有跟我們同仁討論說未來這個綠領他到最後就位的橋接是不是有一些更好的這個建議這個是我們未來可以來思考來推動的因為目前的這個上了課然後上了課也沒有不見得有工作機會那這個就會造成那個年輕朋友的這個失望所以這個部署不會進去的你有沒有討論如何慎選"},{"start":573.122,"end":589.102,"text":"聖選基本上第一個要有一個合理的價錢所以現在目前有一些基金會已經開的很有歷史的而且很有公信力的那我就建議那如果說有一些他可能只是為了要來探交易啊我們現在還沒有這樣的一個市場環境那就請民眾要特別注意"},{"start":591.404,"end":604.328,"text":"你看齁 這個陳姓會計師他有會計師的執照他已經報名參加民間機構的ESG近年的永續管理師的培訓課程他付了24萬事後發現該機構沒有經過國際組織認證無法核發相關的證照那花一大筆錢卻只換來一張結訓證書無助於轉職所以他不夠勝選"},{"start":615.291,"end":639.047,"text":"沒錯沒錯沒錯因為這個東西就是一個結訓你去學習這個東西沒有一個國際的機構會給你這樣的證照的是所以他就是不夠慎重也不夠慎選對好所以他當到會計師還這樣基本上這個東西其實來你看第二件森林系的大四的王同學想考取淨零探選相關證照因為學校無相關"},{"start":642.335,"end":668.83,"text":"到外面的機構上課拿到證明所以只能安慰自己上課證明應能至少當作求職的敲門磚所以他也不夠慎選基本上我們環境國家環境學院部內的其實他都有開放相關的課程所以像這個大社的同學他其實可以到我們部內的相關的課程可以來上不會花那麼多錢所以到我們部內的相關課程來上上完之後可以有認證"},{"start":670.896,"end":676.036,"text":"有證明,有證明,也是叫證明,就跟陳慧琦拿到的這個證明到底是一樣啊"},{"start":677.202,"end":703.325,"text":"我們是公部門的證明所以公部門的證明就是會超越過民間的證明這個其實還是要從他實際上的量能啦現在基本上這個是市場機制有些像就像說有人去彈鋼琴一個小時一萬塊有的一小時五百塊這個就看個人的這個需求我們沒有辦法去限制人家做什麼啦但是如果你這麼講說你們是公部門總是優於民間所辦的相關的課程那會一窩窩能都跑到你們這邊來喔"},{"start":704.646,"end":728.512,"text":"基本上也報告委員其實有些民間的機構辦的這個課程也非常的不錯但是這個必須我們是公部門必須我們有公部門的這個提供我們例如說給年輕朋友價格比較低不是不是不是部長我要跟你表達應該不是這樣啦齁如果從你所講的所謂的勝選嘛那陳貴希斯這個例子就是他不夠慎重的選擇嘛才會發生花了24萬只有得到一個所謂的一個結線的證書嘛"},{"start":730.972,"end":733.893,"text":"來到你們公部門,不用花到24萬嗎?"},{"start":733.893,"end":738.995,"text":"不用。 不會嗎?他可以得到什麼樣的跟他不一樣的證書?"},{"start":738.995,"end":744.557,"text":"呃,公部門的... 我們叫環境部的等於是結業證書。 結業證書。你們叫結業證書嘛。他們叫結訓證書嘛。差異就是環境部頒的這個證書優於民間的那一張證書嘛。"},{"start":752.541,"end":777.834,"text":"報告委員這個相關的就是當然一頭熱啦但是我必須透過委員跟大家知道其實這個目前國際上並沒有一個標準的證書是沒有當然你可以去拿到一個什麼永續學院就大學開的那個就是一個碩士的學程所以經過這些淨零碳白的相關的課程啦認證啦品質啦環境部要不要要不要要不要來面對然後看與如何來做納管"},{"start":778.394,"end":798.309,"text":"報告委員兩部分一個是ISO的查驗證要符合我們氣候變遷因應法我們其實有納管例如說我們的查驗證的人員大概有一百多人那個有納管他要來上課但是如果去上這個所謂的ESG相關的那個就屬於個人自願的去學習那當然我們有額外開一個課關於來了解這個淨零或氣候變遷的"},{"start":800.199,"end":823.129,"text":"就是瞭解嘛,對不對?完了之後就是一個結業證書嗎?沒錯,現在大概都是這樣。你們跟人家收多少錢?一天一千塊。一天一千塊,總共要上三百,就是五天。沒有沒有沒有,我們有兩天到五天的班。就五類的班,那兩天到五天的班,是這樣子。所以就可以領得職業結業證書。那大學生憑學生證是不用錢,他只要保證金考試及格就..."},{"start":823.709,"end":847.652,"text":"所以我拿這張證書是環境部頒給我的我花了這筆錢之後我可以就叫做我叫做探交醫師我可以就叫做探交醫師目前沒有這樣的東西所以基本上要勝選不然不然現在民間有叫永續管理師還有資產管理師還有探交醫師然後我都來跟你環境部上這些課程花了一天三天五天花了三五千之後我是環境部認證的"},{"start":849.233,"end":854.038,"text":"我們有證明而已沒有認證因為這個東西要到這樣的水準是另外一件一個這樣會計師這樣的行列目前全世界都還沒有針對氣候變遷的一種職業的執照"},{"start":871.434,"end":883.723,"text":"所以我才希望說部長可能要立刻來面對這個事情嘛該民間所舉辦的相關的課程跟這樣的一個範圍領籌有關係的應該是要準備來其實報告委員這個其實就是臺灣社會對於這個ESG一頭熱啦熱的有點過熱了所以引發這個很多民間的就希望用這個方式來上課所以環境部該不該把關嘛"},{"start":894.899,"end":923.653,"text":"呃...我會來跟我們同仁來好好討論...他為什麼一直笑?那個...呃...劉遠波不是因為這個事情因為主要涉及到外面補習類似以前的補習班的模式啊對啦競爭的關係才造成這樣的結果不過因為我們開班的目的只是為了提供現在大...因為我們綠領人才需求很...因切所以我們希望這個部分去平衡這個市場那至於剛剛部長提的我們現在就是有幾個機構我們後來可能做一些協商瞭解大家的運作模式啦因為這個剛剛部長提到這個品質高低事實上是差蠻多的"},{"start":924.253,"end":948.204,"text":"教育部應該有針對這些補習的場合也有去做了解嗎?甚至人家有在做相關的一些管理嗎?那環境部針對淨零碳排的相關這些課程應該也要擔起相關的責任吧?報告委員我有去跟我們院長特別討論說我們找一些比較好的這個口碑還有他的聲譽比較好做得不錯的一些我們一起來研商能夠建立一個好的綠林的制度"},{"start":949.895,"end":972,"text":"要建立一個好的立領制度所以基本上還是要朝向環境部來做相關的納管的換取來處理還是不行?納管是不要講清楚的話但是我是建議說這個公司協力把這個制度能夠稍微完整一點因為這個的確我從民間來這個外面的亂象甚至也有人30萬的這24萬不是最多的那個我們的確有發現這樣的情況"},{"start":974.341,"end":974.681,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dbe8df221fd51159c49cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20177aa4682f413d97b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:05:55 - 12:25:43","影片長度":"00:19:48","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":1188,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:25:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:05:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時6分）主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天一個早上的質詢令我刮目相看，因為所有業務都是你本人親自回答。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢。"],["林委員淑芬：看起來很認真，而且也有一定程度的專業，我不認為你說你剛來，看起來像很嫻熟。","大家都就氣候變遷、碳費等等來討論，但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的，上個月食藥署公布邊境查驗不合格的產品，其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的漢堡盒，該產品檢驗的醋酸測試結果溶出達到1132ppm，比標準足足多了37倍，你有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["林委員淑芬：好，不過我今天要說的是比這個更嚴重的，我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族，臺灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制，這個問題事實上在你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些，我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論。","我們這麼落後於國際的規範，甚至連食品包材都沒有規範，許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有這個化學物質家族，但是整個國家，不管是你這個環境部門，還是衛生部門，全部都沒有積極地在管制，讓我們的人民在日常生活當中，可以輕易地接觸到對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS化學物質，更何況還是食品包裝的包材，還有大家天天在使用的一次性紙袋等等。","大家都知道PFAS是化學物質的一個大家族，其中最知名的物質就是PFOA、PFOS等等，它的化學物質超過一萬兩千多種，它是屬於人工合成的，而且是永久性的化學物質。PFAS的物質經常出現在我們講的消費性產品，防油、防水、耐高溫、抗腐蝕，所以廚房裡面有很多，包括不沾鍋，包括防油的紙袋、紙盒，我們身體上穿戴的也很多，像防水衣褲，還有消防器材等等，都含有PFAS這個化學物質。這個化學物質它帶有親水基，所以在自然環境中幾乎不可能消失，而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透，進入我們的土壤，到我們的食物鏈，最後都到人體裡面來，這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度，對生物的危害會不斷地累積而放大。","根據瑞典斯德哥爾摩大學一篇研究，在PFAS家族裡面，光是PFOS、PFOA、PFHxS、PFNA這4種在雨水中的濃度，已經超過美國飲用水終生健康建議值、丹麥飲用水限值、歐盟地表水的環境品質標準，斯德哥爾摩的研究說它都超過了這一些標準，PFAS無所不在，其實都被民眾吃進去，我們都吃下去了。","2021年一份一次性包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查了，歐盟6個國家，他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查，結果檢測42個項目，有多少的檢出你知道嗎？部長，你知道嗎？猜猜看，這個叫你回答出來，我覺得太困難了，你猜一下，歐盟6個國家，檢測42個項目，有多少檢出你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：應該比例很高，9成以上。"],["林委員淑芬：32個，這是2021年。到了2023年，另一份報告它收集了連臺灣在內17個國家、119個食品包裝容器，結果超過一半，54%，有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS，所以你知道臺灣食品包裝，一次性的包裝，包括我們可能吃水煎包，或者吃這個，我忘了那叫什麼名字。"],["謝署長燕儒：爆玉米花。"],["林委員淑芬：等等，便當盒……"],["彭部長啓明：喔，對。"],["林委員淑芬：咖啡杯、飲料，如果是紙杯的，大概全部都有塗層，使用PFAS的可能性都很大。我們現在說大家都在用，我們有人1天不是用1個，你1天吃2個便當，再加上早餐外帶的早餐盒，再加上速食店、喝咖啡，我想很多人1天用了5個、6個、7個、8個、9個、10個，都含有PFAS，那我們就要來問了，PFAS對人體的危害風險有多大？"],["彭部長啓明：很大。報告委員，我最近特別看了幾個資料，例如說我們有幾個水庫水質檢測，那個PFAS真的很高。"],["林委員淑芬：我有看到你的報告裡面有寫。"],["彭部長啓明：對，PFAS很高。"],["林委員淑芬：但你先聽我說，美國疾病管制中心在2011到2012年，這個已經是十幾年前了，他們收集的資料報告顯示，97%的美國人血液當中含有PFAS。","歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫，從2014監測到2021，針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人，總共有1,957個血清樣本，他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量，結果有14.3%的樣本，血液中的PFAS濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準。12到18歲多年輕啊！這麼年輕的小孩就有這麼多的PFAS血液濃度，那年紀越大會累積更多哦！各位，我們的年紀都比年輕人更大，我們吃進去的更多哦！","我們來看，2023（去）年日本研究調查東京多摩地區650位居民血液中的PFAS濃度，發現PFOS和PFOA的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍，所以東京都廳就馬上停用多摩地區內40個水井，因為在這些水源當中檢測出PFAS物質。","針對PFAS，我們都說這個風險在哪裡？這兩大化學物質，PFAS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS，我剛剛講的也都是PFOA和PFOS，已有足夠的研究證明它跟部分疾病是高度相關，包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌、降低女性生育率，還有最重要的，接觸胎兒後，對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響。我的意思是，臺灣做了什麼？臺灣做了什麼？部長，我希望你是第一個高度關心而且積極管制的部長，過去的臺灣，不管是衛生單位，不管是環境部門，都沒有做什麼，都沒做！"],["彭部長啓明：關於這個部分，因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳，就是這幾天我在……"],["林委員淑芬：我再跟你報告一下，因為你就看那個水質報告而已，那還沒有列管，只是增加一個檢測而已。我現在講說PFAS在臺灣，我們的管制不足，遠遠落後於國際公約，而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國所共識，所有的國家都已經紛紛地領先斯德哥爾摩公約的管制哦！斯德哥爾摩公約的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準，很多國家的管制標準都高於斯德哥爾摩公約，而我們都還遠遠落後於斯德哥爾摩公約之後，我就說這個國際公約是最落後、最低標準，我們連最低標準都還看不到車尾燈啊！","我就講最低標準好了，斯德哥爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFOA還有PFHxS，最早被列管的PFOS家族是以附有CAS號碼的方式列出8種PFOS家族，我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎？這是最有名的，而且危害相對風險最高的8種，我們列管了幾種你知道嗎？業務單位說，我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了。"],["謝署長燕儒：原來是4種，我們在4月27日再公告了147種……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在隨便說說，你有聽到我在說嗎？我在問你的是PFOS有8種，列管了3種，你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面的1種，你只列管了1種，可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種，你只列管了1種。","PFOS有8種，你只列管了3種，PFOA有364種，你只列管了1種。你說加起來一百多是因為今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHxS化學物質147種，它一次列管公布所有清單，我們才跟進，把PFHxS列管全部，所以你是今年才加了這一個物質，列管了147種。最嚴重的、大家最常用的PFOA、PFOS，你只列管4種，可是全部有364加8種。"],["謝署長燕儒：是，這部分我們正在研議當中，也會把它列管。"],["林委員淑芬：我有看到啦！我有看到今天的報告。現在我要再請部長，PFAS這些化學物質大概有一萬兩千多種，根據我剛剛的報告，公約明定三大要列管的化學物質就是PFOA、PFOS、PFHxS，這三大是公約明確，它是最低標準，就是說這3個一定要管，有519種，加起來519種一定要列管，可是我們加起來就只有151種，遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準，而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準，我們看不到人家的車尾燈，我們光是這3個化學物質還少了368種，可不可以一併馬上列管？"],["彭部長啓明：Stockholm這個公約是建議出來，但是我們也觀察其他的國家有沒有訂。"],["林委員淑芬：最低標準。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們會持續地保持關注，所以委員的建議我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：不是關注啦！要列管啦！"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，能不能讓我補充一下？"],["林委員淑芬：好。"],["謝署長燕儒：我們從這個禮拜一開始，應該是昨天，我們邀請了瑞典的3位專家，他就是起草那個一萬多種……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！沒關係啦！"],["謝署長燕儒：對，到臺灣來。"],["林委員淑芬：你跟我講，你們什麼時候要列管啦！還沒有列入管理的，一併列管啊！"],["謝署長燕儒：我們會按照程序來做研商。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我再就教部長，這可能是你比較沒有關注到的，但是我再問你，跟上斯德哥爾摩公約是最低標準，但是不要忘了我們有自己的法律，我們應該根據毒管法來做的事情還很多，我們既有化學物質有兩萬種化學物質列冊，但是我們既有化學物質裡面有821種屬於PFAS這個大家族，根據毒管法的定義，只有建置於既有化學物質清冊的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質，所以1萬2,000多個PFAS的化學物質，既有化學物質有821個，所以對我國而言，只有這821種PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS，其他1萬1,000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清冊的PFAS，都是新的PFAS、新的化學物質。根據毒性化學物質管理法第三十條，製造或輸入新化學物質或是要申請登錄的時候，其實都要經核准才能夠製造或輸入。既然已經知道PFAS這一類化學物質不容易分解，它的半衰期，你知道像PFOA在人體中的半衰期要3.5年，可是我們天天在吃啊！你這一天吃的要3.5年，明天吃的又要3.5年，其實你永遠都代謝不完！永遠都存在！所以PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長，譬如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年，但是它在水體中要多少年才會衰減一半？猜猜看啦！我知道這有一點難，在水體中要92年才會衰減一半，所以它對生物體的危害有所累積，對人體、環境影響大，這樣的特性和風險相當、相當的大，所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候，都應該按照毒管法第三十一條，中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之虞者，應於核准登錄時附以附款，要求提供化學物質危害資訊、更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形，必要時並禁止或限制其運作。針對今年公布的PFHxS 147種，我知道你們已經登錄為第一類毒性化學物質，其他相對確定的毒性化學物質的管制，當然比關注化學物質還要高，其他的部分如果你還沒有辦法，我們認為相對來說，面對還有這麼多種、1萬1,000多種PFAS上的風險，我們要再依據現有的法規來做處理，所以彭啓明部長，我希望你能夠明確制定PFAS管理政策、完善PFAS定義和判定方式、指引執法人員審慎面對及審查新的PFAS申請登錄，避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場。","所以我們在這裡很具體要求，根據環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質作業原則第六條關注化學物質候選名單之認定原則的第二款「化學物質具廣泛終端消費者，或使用於民生消費品，可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之虞者」，我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管為關注化學物質。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，委員的意見我會來處理，然後我們定期再跟委員回報。"],["林委員淑芬：茲事體大，事實上你們這個報告我並不滿意，第51頁提到，就112年的調查結果，全氟PFAS家族，就是全氟及多氟烷基物質已經完成第二輪調查，其實是調查飲用水水質，你們的飲用水水源水質調查報告就沒有把你們這些列管的東西放入例行性、常規性應檢測項目，你們都沒有列為應檢測項目，水源水質調查你們是委外研究，委外研究的人雞婆多做了一些，但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測、應列為檢測項目之一，你們沒有這麼做。而且我剛剛提到日本，人家都已經做到人體危害，所以人體健康調查也有了，世界各國都在就人體健康風險進行調查，而我們這個環境風險到底已經到多高了？你們的水質水源保護區調查算是相對上游的，一般下游的部分是如何？環境上的風險，已經有的影響還有危害有多大？在人體健康風險裡面，臺灣的調查報告，本土的數據研究在哪裡？我們通通落後，管制行為也落後，什麼都落後，因為時間有限，我今天沒有辦法就你們的書面報告再就教於你，但我希望部長，你是第一個正式面對這些事情，而且願意去制定管制政策、有效管理的第一個部長，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，我儘量來做。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言。接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請吳春城委員、吳春城委員、吳春城委員不在。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制"},{"start":75.68,"end":96.668,"text":"那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族"},{"start":97.208,"end":120.833,"text":"但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等"},{"start":121.933,"end":137.081,"text":"大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過一萬兩千多種。"},{"start":138.171,"end":138.191,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":155.473,"end":168.686,"text":"包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們穿身體上穿帶也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質"},{"start":170.948,"end":199.513,"text":"那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大"},{"start":200.333,"end":215.727,"text":"那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA"},{"start":217.208,"end":238.98,"text":"這是種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究就是說他都超過了這些標準"},{"start":240.37,"end":266.154,"text":"那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021年的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目"},{"start":270.356,"end":278.352,"text":"有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下"},{"start":279.924,"end":299.934,"text":"六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器"},{"start":300.754,"end":302.536,"text":"結果超過一半有64個樣本檢出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等"},{"start":323.353,"end":323.853,"text":"那我們就要來問了"},{"start":353.395,"end":354.18,"text":"批發對人體的危害風險有多大?"},{"start":357.008,"end":383.868,"text":"很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS"},{"start":384.568,"end":388.449,"text":"歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量"},{"start":406.897,"end":423.499,"text":"結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊"},{"start":424.753,"end":437.346,"text":"﹗"},{"start":439.172,"end":463.566,"text":"2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內"},{"start":465.848,"end":485.158,"text":"40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS"},{"start":487.099,"end":513.8,"text":"她已有足夠的研究證明她跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說台灣做什麼"},{"start":515.962,"end":532.007,"text":"臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在"},{"start":535.178,"end":560.396,"text":"報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識"},{"start":561.357,"end":585.772,"text":"所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約它的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後"},{"start":590.307,"end":593.991,"text":"施德格爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS"},{"start":611.667,"end":634.35,"text":"那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了"},{"start":635.305,"end":644.312,"text":"跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種"},{"start":660.612,"end":674.625,"text":"你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFOA家族有364種你只列管了一種PFOA是八種你只列管了三種PFOA364種你只列管了一種"},{"start":677.648,"end":685.393,"text":"你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部"},{"start":704.827,"end":726.933,"text":"所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的PIVOS你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種各位委員報告這部分我們正在研議當中也會的吧我有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長"},{"start":728.737,"end":747.693,"text":"就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有12000多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS"},{"start":751.355,"end":775.082,"text":"這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈"},{"start":776.023,"end":776.966,"text":"我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管?"},{"start":783.513,"end":808.782,"text":"報告委員,這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家也有訂對,那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦,要列管啦報告委員,能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦,你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦"},{"start":812.145,"end":830.065,"text":"還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊。我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸。好好好,我再去救救部長。保證,這是你可能比較沒有關注到的,但我再問你。跟上司的各模公約是最低標準,但是我們還要,不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊。"},{"start":830.606,"end":847.398,"text":"﹗"},{"start":847.56,"end":865.112,"text":"PFAS這個大家族那根據獨管法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個"},{"start":867.293,"end":886.584,"text":"所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他11000多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條"},{"start":887.785,"end":887.805,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":906.972,"end":934.558,"text":"PFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啦"},{"start":936.806,"end":960.951,"text":"我知道這有點難了水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條"},{"start":962.671,"end":986.789,"text":"中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX"},{"start":991.673,"end":1014.886,"text":"一百四十七種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規"},{"start":1016.227,"end":1035.708,"text":"我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員審慎面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以"},{"start":1037.11,"end":1052.245,"text":"我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款"},{"start":1053.286,"end":1070.837,"text":"化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質"},{"start":1072.196,"end":1082.605,"text":"好,謝謝委員,委員的意見我會來處理,然後我們定期再跟委員回報知事提到,你知道你們事實上你們你們這個報告我是不滿意,第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果,全服"},{"start":1088.109,"end":1107.874,"text":"PFAS家族就潛伏碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有"},{"start":1114.918,"end":1135.492,"text":"水源水質類,你們是委託委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一,你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了"},{"start":1136.472,"end":1153.391,"text":"世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大"},{"start":1154.051,"end":1181.309,"text":"在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎"},{"start":1181.789,"end":1182.71,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d97d4f2486f2f2f5b3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017da6c27b9980abdb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:32:38 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12:37:03","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":665,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:37:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:25:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":947,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時25分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委早，您是5月20號上任嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：昨天有看到立法院的情形嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我有看轉播。"],["陳委員玉珍：你有什麼想法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然大家辛苦了！"],["陳委員玉珍：蛤？"],["彭主任委員金隆：大家辛苦了！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝、謝謝。不過您主管的是金融方面，這個跟民生經濟有關，希望我們可以在委員會裡面充分溝通。我想請問您本身有沒有經歷過詐騙？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我比較幸運，還沒有，雖然有騙但沒成功。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，你說你有被詐騙集團……"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是收到簡訊這些。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以也是有啦，只是沒有被騙成，但是你也經歷過詐騙這個事情，對嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有人利用過你的頭像做什麼投資方面的這一種？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我所知目前還沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：真的喔？那可能還不知道你可能也是算是人才啦！像我是完全不懂得投資的，但是我自己本身就經歷過我的頭像被放在那種投資的那個，連我自己都非常驚訝。而且本席常常接到很多陳情，非常、非常多，不只是金門地區，包括臺灣這邊也一樣，各個年齡層都有，我的家人、各方面，詐騙不管是網路或者是投資這一種都非常的多喔。所以我想請問，因為我們在觀察這個詐騙，當然很多是要騙錢嘛，最後都要經過一個金流，金流就是錢可能就要轉帳，比如他說你的車子沒有繳費，要按進去啊、用什麼信用卡、用什麼點點點、點點點，就把你資料騙走；或是說要你把錢轉到哪裡、哪裡。我們金門很多的高齡的長者接到說做這個投資怎樣、然後錢什麼又要怎樣，有的還要他面交，那已經是比較那個的了。我的意思是在這個過程中，我看到你們的報告裡頭對於詐騙你們是說有跟網路平台業者溝通，113年6月底前配合完成系統調整落實投資廣告實名制，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：意思就是以後任何人的頭像、包括彭主委您的，如果要上線的話，比如某甲他的頭像要做這個投資，上線就必須用實名制，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這是我們投信投顧法第七十條之一裡面的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：本來就有的是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我們為了這個東西新訂的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：蛤？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，為了這件事情新加了一個防範措施。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，所以是在6月、下個月底前就會完成了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是因為我們跟Meta的部分，它承諾會在6月以前改善。"],["陳委員玉珍：改善就是完成的意思，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它是這樣說。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果它沒有完成呢？因為你這樣宣示就表示，7月1號以後如果在臉書上看到彭金隆跟大家說投資ABCD，那麼這個東西就不會是假的了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們期待是這樣的一個狀況。"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是因為反面來想它有實名制，所以我在臉書看到那個就不會是假的嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在根據那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果平台業者沒有做好咧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它有罰則。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可能嘛齁？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：有究責的機制嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，投信投顧法應該是第一百三十……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，就是對這個業者平台業者有沒有究責的機制呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，其實我們在剛剛報告的投信投顧法裡面就有這樣的罰則，我們接下來的打詐專法裡面就會對平台業者課責。"],["陳委員玉珍：打詐專法已經送過來了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在已經送到大院了。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經送過來了？那我們要儘快審議。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：另外帳戶的部分，我又想到第三方支付，不知道您對中國大陸有沒有瞭解？大陸的行動支付非常、非常方便，您知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：微信、支付寶，你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼我們國內臺澎金馬地區這種第三方行動支付非常不方便？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這可能是不是有地區別的差別？還是請……"],["陳委員玉珍：不用。是為什麼？以你的親身體驗、你的認知，你身為金管會主委的認知咧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就我自己的使用我覺得還方便。"],["陳委員玉珍：你覺得方便是不是？比如說你去買菜有用過行動支付嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：傳統市場很困難，但是我想一般的……"],["陳委員玉珍：大陸是連買菜、坐計程車各方面。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，一般來講現在的商店大概都可以使用。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我覺得我們在這個部分實際上是做得不夠，做不夠的部分，你們有沒有什麼想法來具體落實？慢慢的無紙化，就不用貨幣，會不會有具體作為呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這可不可以請銀行局……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們會不會有？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為我們剛剛跟其他委員報告時也有提到，我們有訂一個非現金支付的比率，這個比率不光只是數字的達成，我們也有擬了一些工作的計畫，裡面其實有一個工作計畫就是針對比如一些比較傳統的市集或者是比較需要發展的特約商店，也就是這個商店本來習慣用現金的，然後可以讓他們慢慢轉成用電子支付的方式。"],["陳委員玉珍：那也要有相當的一些鼓勵措施。"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想這個部分可能也要配合，比如在商圈配合經濟部，這個也要做相關的，這個部分下去之後可能也應該當做一個業務的重點。另外一個，我剛剛提到詐騙，因為那個很重要，我們說到金流斷點的問題，我發現各個金融機構事實上在做詐騙阻詐匯錢部分做得還不錯，一些經驗就是他們都會去勸這些要匯很多錢或怎麼樣的人，跟他說可能是詐騙，所以我建議各個機構如果有做這個部分的要鼓勵。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，這部分我們有做。"],["陳委員玉珍：鼓勵以外還要給獎勵，這個是滿重要的。但是我有一個經驗，就是在開戶方面，如果發現這個是詐騙集團的戶頭，我覺得你們在這個開戶各方面包括後續有沒有考慮……我跟你講大陸的政策是怎麼樣，開戶當然也不容易，要有證件，我們現在最少是要雙證件，但是大陸如果這個人的戶頭曾經被詐騙集團使用，這個人就不能再開戶。我們有沒有打算怎麼做比較嚴格的措施，來避免詐騙集團實在太過猖獗？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實……"],["陳委員玉珍：還有包括……你先講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員講的沒錯，就是像現在銀行做的臨櫃關懷，剛才那個阻詐做得滿不錯的。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，那個是做得不錯，有時候做到常常被臨櫃的長者罵。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就被關切。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，這個當然。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛講到問題帳戶的管理，其實我們現在有很多很多的機制在處理中。"],["陳委員玉珍：那請具體講，可是因為我覺得這個應該是做得非常不夠，不然不會詐騙集團還透過銀行的帳戶或是信用卡這樣子來做，還這麼的猖獗。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：金流事實上是阻詐裡面最重要的一環。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們儘量把……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為錢都要從你們這邊進出對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒錯、沒錯。是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以具體有沒有什麼作為？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在比如說列入警示帳戶，接下來可能也沒辦法再開戶，剛剛也有類似的機制，我們還有比如境內境外的帳戶管制，其實我們現在都有聯合內政部跟警政署做滿多這方面的努力。"],["陳委員玉珍：我聽到的具體的作為是各個部會是各行其政，沒有做很好的整合，所以……"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在可能會……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以才會造成這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在我們就在一直強化這一點。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，具體的措施麻煩你給我一個報告，包括我剛剛說的行動支付的部分、詐騙打詐的具體措施，包括你剛剛說的投資廣告平台Meta要實名制的這個部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝，這個沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，恭喜您上任了，我看到媒體有幫你整理好一些各種挑戰，不過還是希望……您去過金門嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：去過，很喜歡。"],["陳委員玉珍：很喜歡？太好了！你覺得金門的這個金融發展怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒有機會去嘗試。"],["陳委員玉珍：根據你們銀行局公布的113年3月底的金融分支機構家數待增加的地區全國有83個鄉鎮，嚴格來講我們金門就有5+1的鄉鎮，其中就有3個鄉鎮金融機構的分支機構家數還是仍待增加，包括金寧鄉、金沙鎮跟烈嶼鄉，所以有一半以上鄉鎮的金融機構還是不足，這個意思就表示我們離島的金融便利還是不夠，賴士葆委員也有提過每年要設ATM或是VTM等自動化的設備，或提供巡迴金融服務機制。你們提到執行的進度怎麼樣呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這是我們一直努力的目標，因為普惠金融裡面講金融是基本的權利，我們儘量怎麼樣鼓勵業者去把普惠的覆蓋率能夠做到全覆蓋。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是用鼓勵的嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為現在這個確實……我們會透過一些有效的措施來增進這件事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼叫有效的措施？你用鼓勵的，比如銀行業者可能不願意去設，也許有可能是成本上的考量，我們相信人少的地方以成本考量來講的確是不划算。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是您知道金融機構它不只是營利事業。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，完全贊成。"],["陳委員玉珍：它具有排他性，而且其營運權是公共賦予的，有一定的社會性，也是特許行業，所以這個部分有沒有什麼預期要達成的目標呢？我要具體的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想目標這部分我們應該是一致的，我想問一下局長有沒有什麼具體的，不好意思，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：你不知道？等一下，你不知道是不是？來，沒關係，因為我時間到了，你不知道、也剛上任，所以剛剛針對本席所詢問那三個議題，因為您剛上任，大概給你一個月時間好不好？那三個是詐騙、第三方行動支付、還有針對離島，你就寫金門的就好了，金門地區的普惠金融部分如何幫我們加強，在一個月內給我比較完整的報告，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆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這我們投信投過法70條之1裡面的規定"},{"start":163.87,"end":175.403,"text":"這是我們為了這個東西新訂的規定。為了這個事情新加了一個防範措施。那是因為我們跟那個Meta的部分他承諾就是說他會在6月以前會改善。"},{"start":183.154,"end":208.636,"text":"改善就是會完成的意思是嗎?對對就是他是這樣說的那如果他沒有完成呢?因為你這樣宣示以後就表示說7月1號以後如果在臉書上看到彭金隆說跟大家說這個投資ABCDE那這個東西就不會是假的啦我們期待是這樣一個狀況那你的意思是說用反面來想說他有實名制嘛所以我在臉書看到那個就不會假的嘛對現在根據那個那如果平台業者沒有做好勒?"},{"start":209.537,"end":223.614,"text":"這不可能嗎?有救責的機制嗎?有有,投信投顧法應該130...不是就是這個業者平台業者平台業者有沒有救責的機制呢?有,那其實我們在剛剛報告的投信投顧法裡面就有這樣的罰則再來我們接下來打詐專法裡面就會對平台業者苛責"},{"start":226.858,"end":244.966,"text":"打仗專法已經過來了嗎?現在已經送到大院了。已經送過來喔?那我們這個要盡快的審議喔?是的。那另外一個,這個帳戶的部分喔,我也想到第三方支付。您知道那個,您不知道對中國大陸有沒有了解喔?您知道大陸這個支付喔,就是行動支付非常非常方便,您知道嗎?知道。"},{"start":245.686,"end":249.07,"text":"為什麼我們國內臺澎金馬地區這種行動支付的部分非常的不方便呢?為什麼?你的親身體驗,你的認知,你身為金管會的認知人?"},{"start":267.403,"end":268.024,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":282.723,"end":296.627,"text":"所以我覺得我們在這個部分實際上是做得不夠那做得不夠的部分這個可能是不是你們有沒有什麼想法具體來落實那慢慢的無止化就不用貨幣有沒有具體的會不會有具體的作為呢你們會不會有"},{"start":303.264,"end":329.287,"text":"報告委員喔因為我們剛剛有跟其他委員也有報告提到就是說我們有定一個非現金支付的一個比率啦那這個比率不是只有光是數字的達成然後我們也有擬了一些工作的計畫那裡面其實有一個工作計畫就是針對就是說比如說一些比較傳統的市級或者是比較需要發展特約商店也就是這個商店"},{"start":330.167,"end":343.096,"text":"他們本來習慣用現金的然後可以讓他們慢慢轉成用電子支付的方式那也要相當的一些鼓勵措施我想這個部分可能也要配合比如說這個在商圈配合經濟部這個也要做相關的這個部分可能下去也應該當作一個業務的重點另外一個來我剛剛提到詐騙一個很重要我們說金流嘛這個斷點的問題"},{"start":352.082,"end":365.469,"text":"我發現這個各個金融機構事實上在做這個詐騙的主詐的匯錢的部分做得算還是不錯啦那一些經驗就是說他們都會去勸這些要匯很多錢或者跟他說可能是詐騙所以這個部分我建議說這個部分對各個機構如果有做這個部分要鼓勵鼓勵以外給獎勵"},{"start":373.074,"end":387.808,"text":"但是我有一個經驗就是說但是這個開戶方面就是說如果發現這個是詐騙集團的這個戶頭我覺得你們在這個開戶方面各方面包括後續有沒有考慮說像我跟你講這個道路的政策它是怎麼樣"},{"start":388.649,"end":388.709,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":412.348,"end":425.372,"text":"剛剛委員講的沒錯就是我們像我們現在的銀行做的臨櫃關懷那個是做的不錯有時候過道常常被這個臨櫃的長者有時候還會罵不過是是是這個剛剛就想說賬戶問題賬戶的管理其實我們現在有很多很多的機制在處理中"},{"start":430.314,"end":439.24,"text":"來,具體講,可是因為我覺得這個應該是做得非常不夠,不然不會詐騙集團還透過銀行的帳戶或是什麼信用卡這樣子還做,還這麼的猖獗。這個金融,你們事實上是主詐裡面最重要的一環,因為錢都要從你們這邊進啊出啊,對不對?"},{"start":448.866,"end":476.353,"text":"所以具體有沒有什麼作為我們現在比如說列入警視帳戶你接下來可能也沒辦法再開戶啦剛剛也有類似的機制啦那我們還有像比如說境內境外的那個帳戶的管制其實我們現在都有跟聯合內政部跟警政署那邊做蠻多的這樣一個努力我聽到的具體的作為就是說各個部位是各行其政沒有做很好的整合所以才會造成這個現在我們就在一直強化這一點"},{"start":477.318,"end":479.8,"text":"我看到媒體有幫你整理好一些各種挑戰不過我還是希望,您去過金門嗎?"},{"start":503.878,"end":521.262,"text":"去過去過很喜歡很喜歡太好了那覺得金門的這個金融發展怎麼樣還沒有機會去嘗試那根據銀行局喔你們銀行局公布的這個113年3月底的金融機構分支分支機構的加速帶增價地區全國有83個鄉鎮金門就有我們金門有"},{"start":525.504,"end":539.179,"text":"五加一鄉鎮就有三個鄉鎮還是金融機構的分支機構加速人袋增加包括金鈴鄉、金沙鎮跟略乙鄉若有一半以上的鄉鎮金融機構還是不足"},{"start":539.94,"end":541.141,"text":"你們提到執行進度怎麼樣呢?"},{"start":560.76,"end":581.074,"text":"其實這是我們一直努力的目標啦希望就是說因為普惠金融裡面講金融是基本的權利啦那我們盡量再怎麼樣鼓勵這個業者去把我們的普惠的覆蓋率能夠做到全覆蓋因為現在這個確實我們會透過一些有效的措施來增進這件事情"},{"start":581.494,"end":608.837,"text":"什麼叫有效的措施?你用鼓勵的比如說銀行業人他可能不願意去設啊或者是有可能成本上考量來講成本上考量來講的確是不划算我們相信人少的地方但是你知道金融機構他不是只有盈利的那個不是只是盈利事業有排他性也有一種這個而且他是這個贏權是公共賦予的有一定的社會性嘛也是特許行業嘛所以這個部分是不是有沒有什麼預期要達成的目標呢?"},{"start":610.478,"end":632.771,"text":"議題要達成的目標我要具體的我要具體的這個部分我想先目標我們該一致的我想問一下局長有沒有什麼具體的不好意思謝謝你不知道你不知道是不是來沒關係喔因為我時間到您不知道也剛上任了所以剛剛針對本席所詢問那三個議題因為您剛上任大概給你一個月的時間好不好"},{"start":633.131,"end":633.151,"text":"謝謝陳委員"},{"start":664.852,"end":665.057,"text":"下一位請"}]}},{"id":"152837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d9917c0fe3e5603563a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d201733c073854302364d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:25:46 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有請金管會彭金隆主委備詢聯邦主委"},{"start":9.195,"end":31.46,"text":"各位好主委您好今日特別到財委會是想要確認在新主委的領導之下金管會對於前任這個主委的政策相關態度以及後續的做法那金管會其實早就體察民意了解到國人對於多元投資商品的需求所以在113年度也就是今年的施政計畫當中有提到"},{"start":32.38,"end":59.682,"text":"開放市格銀行正對高資產客群理財需求提供多元化金融商品擴大金融業務範疇開放證券期貨多元商品及投資管道滿足多元化商品需求考量目前的這個市場的狀況以及我們的這個金融的現況請問一下主委您是否同意遵照黃錢主委的路線捍衛民眾對於投資商品多元選擇的權益"},{"start":61.423,"end":75.613,"text":"我想提供我們市場上需要的產品安全的產品一直都是金管會努力的目標很好因為您剛剛也表示不要過度集中那我們就要來問您另外一元就是另外一種Coin"},{"start":76.514,"end":101.697,"text":"叫比特元我們民間叫做比特幣啦比特幣ETF的負委託今年1月10號美國證券交易委員會SEC宣布批准比特幣現貨的ETF交易一共有11檔比特幣ETF申請全數獲得通過但是遺憾的是國內券商在1月23號發出公告表示收到金管會一紙通知而且"},{"start":102.458,"end":131.206,"text":"不是非常的明確說是什麼理由只能透過負委託賣出連結虛擬貨幣現貨以及期貨相關的商品不可以新增委託買進受到影響的由美國及香港市場約21檔相關的ETF到現在可能還會越來越多我們明白目前國內法規尚不允許我們自己的金融公司推出自己的比特幣ETF在台上市但是禁止國內的民眾以"},{"start":131.886,"end":146.139,"text":"金管會鼓勵的復委託方式來購買不可以購買美國的比特幣現貨的ETF確實在投資界引起了不小的反彈那想請教一下這個我們在3月4號"},{"start":146.88,"end":175.405,"text":"曾經質詢過黃錢主委有表示當時他表示要求券商工會研議是否開放付委託交易加密貨幣尤其比特幣現貨的ETF如果有意則需要在4月底以前提出配套方案甚至有告訴我們最好的消息有可能最快會在4月底已經出現我想請問一下主委據悉券商工會已經在4月中向金管會提出配套方案請問目前的審議進度如何科科檢要說明大概什麼時候我們會有一個明確的結論"},{"start":176.505,"end":196.453,"text":"各位委員,就是我們確實那個券商工會已經在4月24號提出了他們的建議方案過來他們主要參考說現在國際上並不是所有都全面開放比如說韓國跟日本就沒開放但新加坡然後還有像香港他是有開放的就是說這部分券商工會的建議是這樣他說建議開放專業投資人購買虛擬資產ETF且出資買賣是應簽據風險預告書"},{"start":202.655,"end":221.521,"text":"有限定的開放可能會往這個方向走那請問一下投信公會是不是有引進這樣子的一個國外既有的加密貨幣ETF基金向金管會提出或者有沒有其他的金控已經在跟你們講說他們也想要推出自己的比特幣的ETF"},{"start":223.484,"end":251.678,"text":"那委員可不可以允許我們請問局長做更詳細的說明,可以嗎?好,時間不是很多,但是可以戴耀那委員報告,那個投信的部分因為有價增進,比特幣不是有價增進所以那一部分有沒有國內的業者跟你們提出想要開放想要推出這樣的產品有嗎?那我想希望我們可以持續的守護、擁護多元的方針畢竟這是你們的施政報告提出來"},{"start":252.718,"end":273.176,"text":"這一次金管會業務報告也提到了6月底前將公布金融業運用AI指引請問主委指引所涵蓋的面相跟大致的內容能不能讓我們大概知道一下我可不可以請我們那個同仁過來跟您做一個時間稍微暫停一下如果可以讓他移動一下"},{"start":274.881,"end":298.719,"text":"是跟委員報告我們那個AI指引的部分目前是包含像是希望在製裡面的部分希望金融機構至少在針對這個AI系統要他可能要在設計或者是研發甚至是要在有這個模型的時候都必須要先經過公司有一個指定的主管那另外就是針對這個數據的蒐集可能也必須要注意到公平性"},{"start":302.04,"end":319.709,"text":"希望能夠連結到產業的真實面尤其針對伺服器接地等等的一些規範要有一些彈性畢竟大語言模型甚至是AI某種程度來說是非常非常國際化的如果我們只限縮在本地很可能會讓我們的金融業失去競爭力"},{"start":320.569,"end":341.481,"text":"最後還是再次提醒諸位高達84%的臺灣人有投資習慣金管會禁止負委託購買反而會讓更多想買美國比特幣ETF的民眾沒有辦法用金管會鼓勵民眾合法使用負委託的方式來購買比特幣的現貨ETF反而變成要翻牆"},{"start":342.882,"end":367.425,"text":"直接透過海外券商而很多海外券商也被你們名列說是在臺灣不合法如此一來政府將更難以掌握民眾對於美國比特幣ETF的投資情形國內券商則少了手續費的收入民眾如果與國外券商發生投資糾紛還要自行承擔風險甚至可能不勝掉入詐騙的陷阱毫無保障這對於政府"},{"start":368.225,"end":393.815,"text":"國內金融業者和民眾來說可以說三書或者多書我就再次的來跟您分享美國比特幣ETF與其他傳統金融商品其實沒有差別這已經是經過美國的法院所認定的美國SEC也都同意推出了每一位進入投資市場的民眾本來就應該要基本的投資判斷能力希望金管費可以真正的去守護民眾的"},{"start":395.236,"end":420.985,"text":"多元的這樣子的一個方向讓大家有更多的商品選擇資訊公開的透明讓大家都能夠接受投資商品的價格波動不然呢讓大家都只能選擇本地的商品我們的ETF呢講了很多數字講了很多臺灣價值結果到現在價格也還沒回去結果呢明明在美國已經可以合法購買的東西我們卻禁止他用付委託方式購買禁止付委託不是最好的做法"},{"start":421.385,"end":429.473,"text":"金管會應該保障民眾以負委託的方式投資國外虛擬貨幣尤其比特幣現貨ETF的權益謝謝謝謝委員執政謝謝好謝謝下一位執行請陳玉珍"}]}},{"id":"152835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152835","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dd9b319a18e16b3333a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d20177c0d8a20c67ed6ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:18:45 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12:25:44","影片長度":"00:06:59","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":419,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:25:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:18:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1013,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時18分）謝謝主席，我請勞動部陳主秘。"],["主席（范委員雲代）：好，請勞動部陳主秘。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：主秘好。今天大家都在討論有關外國專業人才的延攬跟僱用，前面很多委員都已經關心相關專業人才的規範，本席認為我們也應該要多關心中階技術工的留才狀況，像剛剛范委員所提到的。我們可以從國家發展委員會的網頁訊息看到有三大部分要來做人才的留置，包括強化延攬外國專業人才，包括擴大吸引留用僑外生，第三個部分就是積極留用外國技術人才，其中包括成立移工留才久用服務中心等等。我們很期待透過這樣的努力，讓更多的中階技術工能夠留在臺灣貢獻他們的心力。移工留才久用方案，基本上就是針對中階的技術工人，國內的社福移工目前一共有12萬人左右，其中只有1.5萬人申請留才久用方案，請問一下陳主秘，你覺得這部分我們還有辦法做哪一些加強？或者是哪一些因素讓這樣的留才方案無法發揮它的功能？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，跟委員報告，留才久用方案所適用的對象，是針對在臺灣已經工作滿6年以上具有一定年資的移工，或者其年資不一定完整連續，但累計達11年半的也都可以適用。所以，第一個，它可能有一些資格條件不見得是所有目前在臺灣的家務移工都可以適用，這是第一個理由。第二個，因為這個方案是在112年開始啟動，到現在總共16個月的時間，目前有將近兩萬八千人，其中社福類的有一萬六千多人。這部分成長的速度，隨著我們的宣導跟相關的據點服務的工作，目前在擴充當中，這部分我們會持續做宣導的工作，讓它有更多的揭露。最後一個就是我們也許可以透過擴充免評制的適用範圍，這個部分我們也可以來檢討，是不是有更多可以納進來適用的空間。"],["王委員正旭：是。我們有辦法去主動的勾稽相關可以有機會留用的這些移工嗎？就是近年失聯的這些勞工，或者是他們因為無法申請到適當的條件之下能夠久留而變成失聯的移工。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，希望有一定年資的移工留在臺灣，這是我們努力的目標。至於失聯的部分，它的問題成因其實比較複雜，包括勞動條件跟雇主對待，以及外部的經濟誘因等等因素。這個部分我們也會透過怎麼樣去讓雇主可以合法的僱用合法的移工，以及對於源頭，從外國仲介的部分去做一些管理，跟包括對於來源國的部分去要求配合做一些改善，這部分我們都會持續辦理。"],["王委員正旭：是。因為剛剛范委員所提到薪資條件的部分，對這一群人移工來講，的確是有其門檻跟困難的地方，所以就有民團批評移工留才久用畫大餅，因為門檻太高，看得到吃不到。當然剛剛高副主委也有提到一些相關的留才專用的政策，將來有沒有機會再去做一些修正，或者是有哪一些部分可以再去改變？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：訂定薪資門檻這部分，基本上我們有先徵詢過各個部會所訂的，當然隨著臺灣未來情勢的發展，這裡面仍然有一些檢討的空間，政府會適時的做滾動處理。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝主秘。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：再過來麻煩請社家署，我要問有關於這個社會安全網的部分。"],["尤組長詒君：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：你好。我們知道社會安全是非常重要的，是能夠讓社會維持安全、大家能夠生活安定的一部分。針對第一期計畫所提出來的一些檢討事項，很快就要進入到第二期了，不知道目前從第一期跨到第二期當中，我們需要瞭解、注意的事項包括哪一些，可以請你說明嗎？"],["尤組長詒君：首先在第一期裡頭，我們大概已經完成了所謂社福中心的建置，對於脆弱家庭的相關服務也漸漸的上了軌道，也增聘了一千多名的社工員，對第一期整個社安網的檢討目前正在進行當中，大概未來會朝著深化整個脆弱家庭的服務模式，還有建立專業領域的方式來往前進。"],["王委員正旭：是。之所以提出這個問題，是因為最近社會發生了讓大家會擔心的一些社會安全的事件，我們也知道，護理師目前有將近7%是屬於男性的護理師，他們在工作的過程裡面可能難免會有一些職場上面的壓力，針對這部分，可以有更好的方式來讓我們這些男性的護理師得到性別平等的待遇嗎？"],["尤組長詒君：因為護理師這部分是屬於照護司的範圍，我會帶回去部裡頭再進行研議。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩。謝謝。"],["尤組長詒君：謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩）：謝謝王正旭委員。接下來請吳沛憶委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.62784375,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.239093750000002,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.22596875,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.407218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.778468750000002,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.01034375,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":27.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.18284375,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.23346875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.452843750000003,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.60471875,"end":27.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.65534375,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.97596875,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.02659375,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.97159375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.039093750000003,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.987218750000004,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.30159375,"end":58.890968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.346593750000004,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.164718750000006,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.79284375,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.76721875,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.31034375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.68846875,"end":97.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.02409375,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.28534375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.52971875,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.69721875,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.01284375,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.83784375000002,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.33784375000002,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.76471875000001,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.45909375000002,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.59721875000002,"end":211.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.22159375,"end":242.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.26721875,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.61534375,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.48846875000004,"end":259.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.88909375000003,"end":261.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.63971875000004,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.32721875000004,"end":278.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.80596875000003,"end":280.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.81409375000004,"end":292.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.41971875,"end":294.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.97221875,"end":295.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.11971875,"end":299.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.73096875000005,"end":302.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.75034375,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.99909375000004,"end":324.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.92534375,"end":326.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.19096875,"end":338.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.81346875,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.53909375,"end":339.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.19721875000005,"end":356.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.43096875000003,"end":371.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.01096875,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.37596875,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.80096875000004,"end":392.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.78721875,"end":405.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.75659375000004,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.88159375000004,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.96596875,"end":416.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.39596875,"end":419.96534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.209,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":18.234,"end":18.795,"text":"請勞動部陳祖密上台"},{"start":37.088,"end":60.273,"text":"委員好我想今天大家都在討論有關於這個外國專業人才的延攬跟僱用前面已經很多委員都已經關心相關專業人才的規範本席認為我們也應該要多關心中階技術工的流產狀況就好像剛剛我們范委員所提到的部分那我們可以從國"},{"start":62.213,"end":81.007,"text":"加發展委員會的網頁的訊息看到有三大的部分要來做這個人才的留置包括強化延攬外國專業人才包括擴大吸引及留用僱外生那第三個部分就是積極的留用外國技術人才"},{"start":81.667,"end":109.875,"text":"那這其中就包括了成立移工流財久用服務中心等等這個是我們很期待透過這樣的努力能夠讓更多的中階技術工能夠留在臺灣貢獻他們的心力那移工流財的久用方案基本上都是算是中階的技術工人嘛那國內的社務移工目前一共有12萬人左右"},{"start":110.735,"end":128.129,"text":"那其中只有一點五萬人申請了這個流財久用的方案。那請問一下陳竹蜜你覺得這一部分我們還有辦法做哪一些的加強或者是是哪一些的因素讓這樣的流財方案無法發揮它的功能?"},{"start":128.931,"end":149.127,"text":"是,跟委員報告喔,這個流財久用的方案它所適用的對象是針對在台灣已經工作滿6年以上的具有一定年資的移工,或者是累計,不一定它是完整連續,也許是累計11年半的也都可以適用。那所以第一個它可能有一些資格條件,這不見得是所有目前在台灣的這個"},{"start":152.909,"end":175.534,"text":"這個家庭的移工都可以適用這是第一個理由第二個就是說因為我們這個案子是在112年開始啟動那到現在一年16個月總共16個月的時間目前是有將近兩萬八千人其中包括社福類的是有一萬六千多人那這份其實它的成長的速度隨著我們的宣導跟相關的這個據點服務的工作其實目前在擴充當中"},{"start":176.254,"end":176.974,"text":"王正旭王正旭"},{"start":203.55,"end":217.609,"text":"他們因為無法申請到適當的條件之下,能夠久留而變成了失聯的義工。是,希望他們這些有一定的年資的義工留在台灣,這個是我們努力的目標。"},{"start":218.55,"end":218.85,"text":"委員王正旭"},{"start":243.314,"end":258.821,"text":"是,因為剛剛換委員所提到的部分薪資條件對這一群的移工來講他的確是有他的門檻跟困難的地方所以就有移工留才久用畫大餅"},{"start":259.921,"end":280.024,"text":"好像因為門檻太高看得到吃不到當然剛剛高副主委也有提到相關的一些流財專用的這些政策的部分將來有沒有機會再去做一些修正或者是有哪一些可以再修改變的部分"},{"start":281.164,"end":302.234,"text":"這個部分的薪資門檻的訂定基本上我們有先徵詢過各個部位所訂的啦那當然隨著台灣的未來的情勢的發展這裡面仍然有一些檢討的空間這我們會適時的做滾動處理好 謝謝主秘謝謝委員那再過來我麻煩社家署有關於這個社會安全網的部分"},{"start":310.802,"end":337.972,"text":"委員好你好我們知道社會安全是非常重要的能夠讓社會維持安全大家能夠生活安定的一部分那針對第一期計畫所提到的一些檢討事項很快就要進入到第二期那不知道目前針對從第一期跨到第二期當中我們需要瞭解還有需要注意的事項包括哪一些可以請說明嗎"},{"start":340.599,"end":359.805,"text":"首先在第一期裡頭我們大概已經完成了所謂社福中心的一個建制對於摧惡家庭的相關的一個服務也漸漸的上了軌道也增聘了一千多名的社工員但是在第一期的檢討整個社安網的檢討目前是正在進行當中"},{"start":360.265,"end":360.826,"text":"王正旭王正旭"},{"start":384.869,"end":404.815,"text":"目前有將近7%是屬於男性的護理師他們在工作的過程裡面很難免會有一些比較因為他的職場上面的一些壓力那針對這部分可以有更好的方式來讓我們這些男性的護理師得到性別平等的這些努力嗎?"},{"start":405.799,"end":406.28,"text":"王正旭委員"}]}},{"id":"152834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d40e28ae2767b5d306fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017cdf3a1d6a51b60fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:08:45 - 12:21:28","影片長度":"00:12:43","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":763,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:21:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:08:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時8分）謝謝主席，先請李遠部長、李靜慧次長。"],["主席：好，請李部長和李次長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：本席延續前面委員的質詢內容，因為剛剛有提到，哇！剛才次長是不是藐視國會的行為？所以本席必須確認一下。次長，剛剛葉元之委員請問你有關文學館標案的問題，你回答時有稍微停頓，請問你是在思考？還是你拒絕答復？還是你準備要說謊？"],["李次長靜慧：沒有，我在思考。"],["吳委員沛憶：請問部長，你認為剛才次長回答時有停頓，讓立委質疑是不是在藐視國會，你認為他是有意要拒絕答復嗎？"],["李部長遠：你看我們次長這麼老實的樣子，怎麼可能呢？"],["吳委員沛憶：是，本席的觀察也是這樣子，但是本席在這邊還是要說，本席非常反對制定藐視國會罪，為什麼？因為拒絕答復由誰決定？倘若依照現在多數反對黨提出的藐視國會罪，剛才這個情形發生了，只要多數黨的立委連署就可以構成藐視國會罪，送院會決議還可以懲戒、彈劾，這完全沒有客觀的依據。","本席認為未來質詢台是平行的關係，為什麼？因為我們必須辯論，辯論才能夠讓真理越辯越明。倘若藐視國會罪定下去，變成上對下的關係，只要有權力關係就沒辦法好好的辯論，這無助於我們釐清事實，也無助於我們推動事情的進步。次長先請回，接下來本席要請教部長。","因為本席有特別來聽你今天的報告，讓本席想起人生第一部走進電影院看的電影，是爸爸帶我去看的「多桑」，我在爸爸的書桌上也常常看到部長的書。剛才有委員問到部長是70世代，本席是30世代，但本席有看到一部漫畫「潮浪群雄」，是以臺灣電影1980年代的新浪潮為背景所做的創作。","其中本席印象很深刻的是在這個漫畫的其中一格，右邊這一位應該是部長吧？左邊這一位是吳念真導演，當時你們是兩個年輕人，走進中影製片公司，就在西門町的漢中街，那時候你也是剛進入這個位置，對臺灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想。但是你們兩個當時有一個辯論，就是進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎？你說：我只是很好奇，占了位置是否真能改變什麼？","今天本席看到部長進入中華民國行政院的團隊，擔任臺灣文化最高主管機關的首長，所以本席想請教部長，對於臺灣文化的未來，你希望推動什麼樣的改變？"],["李部長遠：其實我來之前滿猶豫的，因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好，又比我年輕。但是我覺得，就是因為我走過電影這條路，曾經在1980年代走過，從大家看不起的臺灣電影，一直到走向國際。我也很喜歡繪本、寫作，我覺得臺灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等，我們一直覺得臺灣在文化上好像少了一些助力，所以我最後答應來做這個職務，因為可以做的事情非常多。"],["吳委員沛憶：有非常多的事情要改變，沒有錯。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們除了希望可以仰賴你做為文化人對文化的熟悉，以及對文化社群的了解，我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗，因為行政還是非常重要的。所以有關臺文館的抄襲風波，本席也很關切，目前文化部給出的回應是送政風處查核，我們要對廠商提告，再來，我們要研議依約來解約，還有館長及副館長都自請處分。但本席還想要請問一個最重要的問題，我們能不能依法提報，把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶？"],["李部長遠：這個我們已經做了。"],["吳委員沛憶：可以嘛！對不對？採購法就有這樣的規定，可以提報為拒絕往來戶。在這個案件裡面，我們要記取什麼樣的教訓？首先，剛才部長也說了，抄襲當然零容忍，絕對不能接受，但是我們在事件後續的處理，第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊，反而讓官方粉絲頁帳號發布錯誤的訊息，造成二度傷害，這個發文者就是小編，他屬於我們委託做主視覺創作的同一家廠商。","部長了解本席的意思嗎？這個畫圖的人、抄襲的人，和幫他發文提供錯誤資訊給館方，說這不是抄襲的，都屬於同一個廠商的員工，但是因為這個小編是這家廠商在文學館的駐點人員，大家有長期互動，可能就形成一種默契。所以本席覺得要檢討的是，我們必須建立一些制度，第一，文化部有沒有抄襲事件發生時的處理流程？有沒有相關的SOP？","第二個，文化部不是只有臺文館，轄下有非常多場館都有在經營社群帳號，社群帳號的發文有沒有建立一個SOP？當然，發文時文化部有人員看過，可是你們沒有一個事實查核的程序嘛！所以這個小編告訴你們這沒有抄襲，你們就相信了。本席覺得相關程序要建立起來，也希望部長能夠開始盤點，現在文化部本部和相關轄管的單位到底有多少帳號，你們知不知道？還沒有盤點過嘛！趕快去盤點。","現在這個時代，社群帳號就代表官方，社群不是小編一個人負責就好，而且小編也沒有辦法替你們負責，發生事件再來切割也不是正確的處理態度。所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號，每一個帳號背後發文的那個單位有沒有相關的程序？未來發生爭議事件的時候，要經過什麼樣的確認，這個文才可以發出去？因為這就是過去官方的新聞稿，你們要等同重視處理，好不好？部長，這個部分要儘快去做，本席認為一個月內要盤點出來，並且把這份報告提供給本委員會，讓所有委員了解。"],["李部長遠：好的，OK，我們會照做。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來要和部長討論的，也是本席非常關注的，因為正好就在本席的選區。史博館好不容易開始整修，但是過去6年來不斷遭受到政治攻擊，本席認為當中有很多是認知作戰和假訊息，說史博館的整修是在去中國化。部長，你有沒有看到相關的新聞和討論？"],["李部長遠：有，我不但有看到，還有人寫信給我。"],["吳委員沛憶：有人寫信給你？"],["李部長遠：對。說這個……"],["吳委員沛憶：你的回應是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我沒有回應，因為我還沒看到，後來我有去現場看，我覺得是臺灣社會在認知上，兩個族群互相不信任，只要改得比較現代一點，或者改的過程其實並沒有那個意思，例如只是拿掉楊英風設計的水池，就認為是去中國化，我覺得是簡化了那個過程。因為我後來有去看，我發現它是……"],["吳委員沛憶：你有到現場看？"],["李部長遠：有的，後來我自己跑去看。因為這是我非常熟悉的環境，我小時候就住在附近，這是我長大的地方，那個水池本身並不具備歷史建物的條件，它是用一些卵石堆砌，也不是假山假水，後來重新設計的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪，所以就和楊英風的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平，然後再擺一個楊英風的作品。來告訴我的朋友認為那個作品很醜，他不知道那是楊英風的作品，大概是這樣。","我覺得都是誤會啦！我們已經對外解釋，包括搬家後記憶最深的咖啡館，那時候我爸爸媽媽也常常去，因為它是違章建築，所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉了，像這個……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以會不會因為有人這樣批評，我們就改變規劃？"],["李部長遠：我覺得不會。就像剛才你說的抄襲事件也好，史博館的改建也好，我們的社會一定要對話，否則對立會越來越強，它明明是一個改建，而且完全沒有別的意思，就是找建築師用現代的觀念重新改造。我覺得每一件事情的發生都應該回到真相，剛才你說的那個抄襲事件，我覺得很嚴重，但是我們回到它的真相，就知道剛才說的帳號問題、小編問題，背後有很嚴重的一連串問題。包括臺灣對美學的看法，怎麼樣是最美的東西？我們的建築物怎麼樣最美？這也是需要溝通的觀念。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以我們改革時最常遇到的，就是叫你改回來。所以部長，本席認同要好好的說明、好好的溝通，我們是基於什麼樣的理由進行改建，讓社會大眾能夠更加了解。最後，本席要回到一開始給部長看的這部漫畫，因為本席還有另外一張，也是印象很深刻的。這個戴眼鏡的是部長，裡面就提到，你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎？年輕人，你們就是要有熱情啦！要用智慧來突圍。","當時你們有一個對話是說還可以用智慧來突圍，但我們卻連機會都沒有。這就是本席現在看到的臺灣文化界，也是很多年輕一輩創作者遇到的困境，一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣，有非常強大的夢想，也非常踏實在基層努力，但是文化界已經形成一個資深制的體制，當年有小野、吳念真，也許現在我們這一輩的吳念真、小野已經存在，但是他們還沒有被看見，他們還沒有機會占一個位置看看可以改變什麼，這時候就需要我們給他一個機會。","所以本席希望文化部能夠檢視，因為包括教育部等相關單位就有這樣的計畫，教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有在畢業之後支持他們去國外學習的相關計畫，文化部比較缺少，本席覺得可惜了，所以希望部長可以全面盤點，目前文化部各單位既有的政策工具裡面，有哪些是可以專注支持年輕人，為臺灣培養下一代的文化創作者，好不好？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以說一句話？"],["吳委員沛憶：可以。"],["李部長遠：當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情，其實我們只做了一個動作，就是把門打開，讓所有有能力的人進來，哪怕他們很年輕，像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅。我只做了一個動作，就是把門打開，不再封閉。同樣的，我雖然是這個年紀了，但我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念，我覺得一個社會當中創造力最強的就是年輕世代，將來我希望文化部是年輕人很喜歡的，也能從這邊得到資源的單位。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝吳沛憶委員，部長請回。接下來我們先處理臨時提案。","今天有委員提出臨時提案，共4案，請宣讀。","一、","據悉，文化部預計從2023至2027年執行文化幣政策，迄今已投入近22億元，鼓勵16-22歲的青年體驗藝文生活，未來更預計降低領取年齡至13歲，以引導資金挹注於工藝、音樂、圖書、台灣電影及表演藝術等產業。政策立意良善，卻時有所聞各地表演藝術團隊因不清楚全台各縣市文化幣使用情形，而難以評估每一表演場次是否應規劃青年席次及其數額之窘況；再者，因各縣市藝文事業及人口分布特性，文化幣亦有集中於六都消費之現象，不利於推動文化平權。","爰此，為促進資訊揭露、規劃文化平權推動方針，請文化部於一個月內規劃「每季提出並公告文化幣之使用報告」，內容應包括全國及各縣市已領取人數及年齡及比例、已使用金額及比例、使用場域與項目分佈年齡及金額及比例（如：用於獨立書店、青年席次、觀賞國片等）、藝文消費點分佈數量及比例、短期藝文消費點分佈數量及比例（如：市集、街頭藝人、文創展會等）、其他有利藝文通路及團體及工作者設計相關行銷方案或促進文化平權之資料數據，以發揮文化幣累計消費數據之最大效益。","提案人：陳培瑜　　林宜瑾","連署人：郭昱晴　　陳秀寳　　范　雲　　吳沛憶","二、","《文化創意產業發展法》修正條文於去年五月修正通過，其中特別因應社會事件以及產業變化通過了「打擊黃牛」以及「投資內容產業應享有租稅優惠」的相關條文。其中本法有關打擊黃牛之立法條文第10條之1已於112年6月2日施行，請貴機關說明該法案施行後之執行情形，並針對執行情形提出評估。同時，有關投資內容產業應享有租稅優惠之相關條文，文化部也已於12月1日已完成發布「公司或有限合夥事業投資國家戰略重點文化創意產業投資抵減辦法」、「個人投資國家戰略重點文化創意產業所得額減除辦法」及「文化部辦理國家戰略重點文化創意產業投資抵減或所得額減除之申請及審核作業要點」。請貴部提出，此法案通過後之施行狀況並針對「國家戰略重點文創產業」之現行申請狀況進行申請類別之分析。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　陳秀寳　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　張雅琳　　范　雲　　","三、","行政院於2021年8月核定「國家兒童未來館興建計畫」座落在新板特專三文化設施用地，興建經費更由原先近130億元增至約165億元，中央政府全額出資新建，文化部更經徵選，邀請張瑪龍陳玉霖聯合建築師事務所與日本伊東豊雄建築設計事務所參與國家兒童未來館之設計。國家兒童未來館將成為國家級之廠館，樂觀其成，建請文化部督促如期發包，於2026年動工興建，並於兼顧品質之下加速完工。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　張宏陸　　陳培瑜　　陳秀寳　　林宜瑾　　張雅琳　　范　雲","四、","案由：本院林倩綺委員，有鑑於今年（113）元月、案號113教正0002監察院糾正指出，文化部有關公共藝術設置，往往以「行政代辦」之名行「全部委辦」之實，少數代辦甚至索取回扣、與得標公司有重大異常關聯，成為利益集團統籌與利益分配者。文化部始終以未接獲陳情檢舉為由，對特定代辦壟斷四成以上案件態樣視若無睹。文化部專家學者資料庫中委員僅366人，專業層面分布不均且多年未新增。對此，文化部稱已著手重新檢視、調整與擴展；而有不肖業者以不正手法取得標案、壟斷市場等違法行為，文化部稱已要求代辦公司揭露。文化部更回應指稱將展開最大規模公共藝術修法。基於該糾正案件至今尚未結案，文化部應針對糾正內容詳實列出已具體改善成效、未完成項目預定完成時間表以及有關大幅修法之草案與進度，並於一個月內完整回覆立法院教育及文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　洪孟楷　　羅廷瑋"],["主席：好，現在處理第1案。第1案提案人陳培瑜委員有沒有補充意見？"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有補充意見，但是文化部好像要修改，可不可以請文創司先說明？還是文化部？部長應該沒辦法先說明，直接請文創司說明好了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請司長說明。"],["江司長清松：是，報告委員，我們的建議就是對於委員提案我們都會尊重，不過為了後面的推動，是不是在第二大段規劃文化平權推動方針，請文化部於一個月內規劃每季提出並公告文化幣之使用報告這個部分，其中「一個月內」可不可以改為「三個月」？「使用報告」的部分是不是可以加兩個字，改為「重點使用報告」？另外，第二段第五行括弧內的部分「如：用於獨立書店、青年席次、觀賞國片等」可不可以先刪除？第二段第六行的「短期藝文消費點分佈數量」因為在藝文消費點裡面已經含括，所以這部分是不是可以刪除，也包含後面括弧的部分？以上建議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝文創司。那我請問一下，文化幣從推動到現在，你們有進行相關資料整理的業務報告或者相關計畫報告嗎？到目前為止有嗎？其實往往都是在出現了很多新聞、弊案─例如說有人跑去美甲店、美髮店用了文化幣，或者有人在各式各樣的市集用了文化幣，在有相關新聞或輿論出來之後，文化部才會作出回應嘛！我們絕對認同文化幣的確是美意，而且它也確實促進了很多文化產業從業同仁的有感度，這是好的，但是我們也希望在有感度提升、預算也花下去的情況下蒐集相關數據，並且回過頭來把這些相關數據提供給相關從業人員，例如說讓他們設計年度行銷方案，或是協助文化幣的使用者，如果新年度再拿到文化幣，可以如何更加善用這些東西，所以我們才會希望你們應該定期提出相關報告。至於提案目前寫一個月的用意是要你們先規劃報告進度、先給一個月規劃，之後也許每一季提出前三個月的使用規劃，比較像是這樣。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們非常認同委員的想法。但現在是這樣：委員剛剛提到那些狀況其實並不是所謂的弊案，而是在使用純化的過程。也就是說一開始的時候，我們放的範圍比較寬，再透過適用的方式漸漸收縮其範圍，所以現在看到更多事項不能夠使用文化幣，原因就在這裡。所以我們提出建議從一個月改到三個月，倒不是因為我們沒有在蒐集，事實上，以我們內部的數據，只要有人花文化幣，數據就會一直進來。只是現在處在變化的過程，包括我們現在採取新的方式，也就是電信認證的方式去蒐集資料，如果在很短期，前後資料可能對不起來，會覺得為什麼這裡的資料會是這樣、為什麼這裡的資料會不對。所以我們建議以比較長的期程、也就是一季的方式，用這個方式提報並且公告，這部分我們可以做到。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我跟你確認一下。照你剛剛說的，你們一直都在蒐集資訊，也不斷做出調整跟限縮，這部分絕對要給予文化部高度的肯定。假設在一個月內先提供你們已經針對前期做出統整的報告給所有教育及文化委員會委員做為參考的話，一個月可以讓你們改成三個月，可是之後你們有沒有規劃定期提出文化幣使用的相關報告？目前的規劃進度是？"],["王次長時思：我們一直認為這些數據因為開放政府的關係遲早都是要作特定的公告，但我們現在的作法是在尋求數據的穩定狀態。因為去年是18到21歲，今年是16歲到22歲，適用範圍與適用年齡其實一直在變化中，所以我們提出的報告、數字會讓大家非常confusing，這就是為什麼我們沒有現在就提出公告數字。若是要提出這樣的規劃跟未來要怎麼做，我們可以提出，沒有問題，只是希望委員可以同意我們現在提出的報告就是重點報告，因為它非常瑣細。前後適用的店家也可能會有所不同，譬如說前一個月這個店家在，但下個月店家數字會改變，包括它的營業項目。而且我們現在愈追愈細，譬如說禁止大家直接購買，譬如說不可以再買這些肥皂、手作產品等等，可是仍然可以手作，像這麼細緻的差異，在數據的呈現上會非常細微而瑣碎，那我們就會一直要解釋為什麼這些數據前後不吻合。我們擔心這樣的公告會造成大家的混亂，誤以為是我們執行的問題，但事實上在數據沒有穩定的狀態下公告，就會造成這些認知的差異。所以我們願意做這樣的規劃、願意提出來讓委員了解、也願意進行公告，只是希望時間可以比較長，在第一階段提出時就是針對目前的重點狀況提出，也就是這些分類統統都會在，委員也會看得到。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我們再聚焦一下。剛剛你們希望我們把一個月內……我們的寫法是一個月內規劃每季提出並公告文化幣之使用報告，對於這裡的「一個月」，你們希望我們改成「三個月」，讓你們有比較長的規劃時間處理報告怎麼呈現，對不對？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這部分我可以接受。可是我要再次強調，我相信所有其他委員不會希望看到如你剛剛所說這麼細的資料，其實也是想看到目前在所有文化創意產業或從事文化產業的人員如何看待他們自己的工作或他們勞動的結果與文化幣之間的關係。"],["王次長時思：了解。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為對於很多人來說，他們也想知道到底消費者如何看待他手上的文化幣跟他所進行的文化消費。所以我可以接受一個月改為三個月，但是後續相關報告有機會每季提出嗎？還是你認為這個也要作調整？"],["王次長時思：沒有，只要穩定以後，每季提出對我們來說，本來內部也會作這樣的檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK，好，那這沒有問題。","然後，剛才也提到空間部分要作調整嘛！對不對？"],["王次長時思：就是括弧裡面的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，那可以刪掉，沒關係。"],["王次長時思：就是不用括弧裡的內容，我們本來就會處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為我相信你們，如果按照你剛剛講得這麼清楚，代表你們應該對很多場域的資料都在蒐集了。","那我順帶補充一點。其實文化幣有加碼、加碼、再加碼機制對不對？但是你有沒有聽到，在很多文化幣的消費點，去買的人拿文化幣先結帳完一批，等加碼幣跑出來再結帳第二批，在現場造成很多小店家的困境，對於這件事情……次長，你笑了！代表你知道。在我們看起來對消費者是好的，可是卻對店家造成結帳上的困境，我不知道這點有沒有什麼方法解決啦！"],["王次長時思：我們來看看有什麼更快的方法。這其實是消費端跟銷售端不同造成的差異，因為對消費端來說，希望有中獎的感覺。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，對消費者來說，當然希望買完再加碼嘛！可是對店家來說就是製造了結帳的麻煩。"],["王次長時思：但也增加了店家的收入可能性，所以是在平衡的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒有錯、沒有錯，但也許要拜託你們多想一想。"],["王次長時思：對，我們再想一想在執行上有沒有更簡化的程序。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，謝謝次長。至於其他修改沒有問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝培瑜委員，也謝謝次長的說明，那這個案子就照文化部的建議修正通過。","來看第2案。第2案的提案人是蘇巧慧委員，她也在現場，有什麼要補充說明的嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：對於我這項臨時提案，非常感謝文化部已經同意。我想，打擊黃牛這個部分以及我們希望的文化創意產業所得額減除辦法等等，這些都是對文化產業發展相當重要的。我等一下會質詢啦！所以就不再利用這個時間，既然貴部已經同意的話，我就等一下在臺上的時候說，謝謝。"],["主席：OK。","那文化部這邊有意見嗎？"],["李部長遠：遵照辦理。"],["主席：OK，好，第2案就照案通過。","處理第3案。第3案的提案人還是蘇巧慧委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：關於這個提案，我們就是希望兒童未來館能夠順利地、如期如質地進行啦！也謝謝文化部已經同意。"],["主席：那文化部是否要說明？"],["李部長遠：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，這一案也照案通過。","第4案是林倩綺委員的案子，有什麼需要補充說明的嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：部裡面都OK嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們是……"],["主席：有一些修正文字？"],["李部長遠：一點點，就是在案由之後直接接「有鑒於今年（113）」，就這樣，案由直接接第一段。最後則是少了一個字：「委員會」的「會」。"],["主席：對，好。"],["李部長遠：就是這兩個小地方。"],["林委員倩綺：第一段還要直接接嗎？剛剛我們有……"],["李部長遠：直接從「有鑒於今年（113）」……"],["林委員倩綺：如果是那個……"],["李部長遠：尊重委員，要保留嗎？保留，OK，好。"],["主席：可是提案通常是整個委員會的提案，所以基本上前面確實要刪掉。"],["林委員倩綺：那跟提案人沒關係。"],["主席：提案人是你，可是案由就不會再寫你的名字了，所以這部分還是文化部的意見比較OK。"],["林委員倩綺：沒關係。"],["李部長遠：好，建議修改文字。"],["主席：好，修改文字，那就是前面刪掉以及後面加個「會」，按照文化部的建議修正通過。","各提案如果有委員要補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，補簽處在我的左手邊。","接下來請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPE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我們剛剛次長是不是有藐視國會的行為所以我必須確認一下次長剛剛這個葉元之委員在請問你有關於文學館這個標案的問題你在回答當中你有稍微停頓請問你是在思考還是你拒絕答覆還是你準備要說謊"},{"start":45.472,"end":56.135,"text":"沒有沒有在思考在思考那請問部長你認為剛剛我們次長中間有停頓讓我們的立委質疑說你是不是在藐視國會的時候你認為他是有意要拒絕答覆嗎你看我們的次長這麼老實的樣子怎麼可能呢是因為我的觀察也是這樣子但是呢我在這邊還是要講"},{"start":68.991,"end":71.932,"text":"我非常的反對要去制定藐視國會罪為什麼因為拒絕答覆由誰來決定倘若依照我們現在多數反對黨要提的這個藐視國會罪哇剛剛這個情形發生只要多數黨的立委去連署"},{"start":85.094,"end":88.436,"text":"就可以構成藐視國會罪收院會決議還可以懲戒彈劾這個完全沒有一個客觀的依據所以如果說這個罪定下去我認為未來我們在質詢質詢台是平行的關係為什麼因為我們不需要辯論有辯論才能夠把真理越辯越明倘若藐視國會罪定下去了變成上對下的關係只要有權力關係沒有辦法好好的辯論"},{"start":111.829,"end":115.21,"text":"市長請回那接下來我要請教部長因為前面我有特別來聽了你今天的報告那讓我想起說我人生第一部走進電影院看的電影是我爸爸帶我去看這個道桑"},{"start":133.018,"end":157.374,"text":"然後呢我在我爸的出桌上常常看到部長你的書剛剛前面委員問說部長你是七十世代那我是三十世代那我在我就看到呢有一個這個漫畫啦它叫做長老群雄它是以我們台灣電影新浪場就是1980年代新浪場為背景的創作其中我印象很深刻的在這個漫畫裡面其中一個右邊這一位應該是部長李吧"},{"start":163.101,"end":166.383,"text":"然後呢左邊這位是吳念真舞蹈那你們當時是兩個年輕人走進中影的製片公司就在我們西門町的漢中街那你那時候也是剛進入到這個位置對於改變台灣電影的改革有一個很大的夢想但是呢你們兩個當時有一個辯論說"},{"start":185.375,"end":207.022,"text":"進來這邊真的有辦法做什麼事情嗎那你說我只是很好奇站的位置是否真能改變什麼所以今天呢我看到部長你進到我們中華民國行政院的團隊也擔任我們台灣文化最高的主管機關的首長所以我想要請教部長你對於來推動台灣文化未來的改變你希望推動什麼樣的改變"},{"start":211.149,"end":236.339,"text":"其實我來之前蠻猶豫的因為我覺得也許很多人會做得比我好又比我年輕但是我覺得我就是因為走過電影曾經在1980年代走過從一個大家蠻看不起台灣電影可以到國際然後我也很喜歡繪本我也很喜歡寫作我也覺得台灣很多作品沒有翻譯到國外去等等"},{"start":237.139,"end":260.771,"text":"一直覺得台灣在文化上好像少了一些助力所以我最後答應來做就可以做的事情非常多有非常多的事情要改變沒有錯那除了是我們希望可以仰賴你作為文化人對文化的熟悉以及對文化社群的瞭解但是我們也要仰賴你過去的文化行政經驗因為行政還是非常重要所以呢台灣館的超型風波我也很關切"},{"start":263.772,"end":281.947,"text":"目前文化部給出的回應是我們進行了送政風柱查核我們要對廠商來提告然後再來我們要研議來依約來解約然後我們的這個館長及副館長都自請處分但還是想要請問一個最重要的問題我們能不能夠依法來提報把這個廠商列為拒絕往來戶"},{"start":288.035,"end":288.876,"text":"首先剛剛部長你也說了抄襲當然零容忍 絕對不能接受"},{"start":304.016,"end":306.898,"text":"但是我們在事件後續的處理第一時間我們沒有得到最正確的資訊反而讓我們的官方的粉絲頁賬號去發布了錯誤的訊息造成了第二度的傷害那這個發文者他就是這個小編他就是我們委託來做這個主視覺創作的同一家廠商啊"},{"start":328.8,"end":332.162,"text":"部長瞭解我的意思嗎這個畫圖的人抄襲的人跟幫他發文說然後提供錯誤的資訊給我們管方說啊這個不是抄襲人他們是同一個廠商但是因為這個小編是家廠商在文學館的駐點人員大家長期在互動可能就形成了一種默契"},{"start":348.692,"end":354.82,"text":"所以我覺得要檢討的就是我們必須要去建立第一個我們文化部有沒有針對抄襲事件發生時候處理的流程有沒有相關的SOP第二個文化部不只台灣館我們非常多的轄下的這個場館都有在經營社群帳號"},{"start":365.874,"end":365.894,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":383.78,"end":383.8,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":404.813,"end":410.474,"text":"社群不是小編一個人負責小編沒有辦法替你們負責發生事件再來切割也都不是正確處理的態度所以趕快去盤點到底有多少帳號每一個帳號背後發文那個單位有沒有相關的程序那未來有發生爭議事件的時候經過什麼樣的確認這個文才可以發出去因為這就是我們過去官方的新聞稿你們要等同來重視處理好不好"},{"start":430.538,"end":459.65,"text":"部長這個要盡快我認為一個月內要把它盤點出來並且把這個報告提供給本委員會所有的委員瞭解好那接下來要跟部長討論的是也是我非常關注因為正好呢就在我的選區史博館好不容易開始整修但是過去6年來呢不斷有遭受到一個政治攻擊當中我認為很多是認知作戰跟繳訊息說我們史博館的整修是在去中國化那部長你有沒有看到相關的新聞跟討論"},{"start":460.47,"end":480.241,"text":"有有我不但看到還有人寫信給我有人寫信給你那你的回應是什麼我的回應我沒有回應因為我還沒看到後來我真的去現場看到我覺得是一個台灣社會在認知上大家兩個族群非常不信任只要是改的比較現代一點或者是改的過程並沒有"},{"start":481.181,"end":481.201,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":502.483,"end":527.611,"text":"他那個水池本身並不具備了歷史建物的條件他是用一些軟石在堆砌他也不是假山假水所以後來重新設計試的時候覺得擺在那邊很怪他就跟楊英峰的家屬溝通可不可以把它填平而且再擺一個楊英峰的作品那跟我講的朋友是認為那個作品很醜他不知道是楊英峰的作品大概是這樣我覺得都是一種誤會啦"},{"start":528.951,"end":540.658,"text":"那我覺得這一點要我們已經都要解釋包括大家記憶中最深的那個咖啡館我爸爸媽媽也常常去他也因為它是圍山建築所以重新做的時候就把它拿掉這樣"},{"start":542.503,"end":565.94,"text":"會不會因為有人這樣子批評我們就去改變我們的規劃我覺得不會的原因是就像剛才你講抄襲的事情也好使不完的改建也好我們這個社會一定需要對話否則它那個對立越來越強就是說它明明是一個改建而且完全沒有別的意思重新找個現代建築師來用現代觀念再重新改造"},{"start":567.061,"end":567.922,"text":"吳沛憶委員"},{"start":584.612,"end":584.632,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":605.266,"end":620.332,"text":"說明好好的溝通那我們是基於什麼樣的理由來進行改建那就讓社會當中能更加的了解那最後呢是我要回到我剛剛一開始也不好看的這個漫畫因為我還有另外一張也是印象深刻的"},{"start":623.235,"end":627.236,"text":"這個戴眼鏡的是部長那裡面你就提到說你以為我們是那種輕易屈服的年輕人嗎那年輕人你們就是要有熱情要用智慧來突圍當時你們一個對話是說還用智慧來突圍我們連機會都沒有"},{"start":643.792,"end":646.934,"text":"那就是我現在看到我們台灣文化界年輕一輩的很多的創作者他們所遇到的困境就一如你們在1980年代所遇到的困境一樣有非常強大的夢想也非常的踏實在基層在努力"},{"start":661.744,"end":665.366,"text":"但是在文化界裡面已經形成了一個資深制的一個體制讓很多的年輕人也許當年的小野當年的吳念真現在我們這一輩的吳念真這一輩的小野他們已經存在但是他們還沒有被看見他們還沒有機會站一個位置來看看可以改變什麼"},{"start":687.509,"end":707.735,"text":"就需要我們給他一個機會所以呢我希望我們文化部能夠去檢視因為包括我們教育部相關的單位教育部目前對於文化領域的學生有這種畢業之後支持他們去去國外學習相關的計畫文化部比較缺少我覺得可惜了所以希望部長你可以全面來盤點"},{"start":708.775,"end":719.605,"text":"我們文化部目前各個單位既有的政策工具裡面有哪些我們是可以來專注支持年輕人為台灣去培養下一代的文化創作者好不好"},{"start":721.496,"end":745.459,"text":"我可不可以講一句話,就是當年我們在中央電影公司做了很多事情,其實我們只做一個動作,就是把門打開,讓所有有能力的人進來,哪怕是他們很年輕,像侯孝賢、楊德昌、柯一正、張毅,我只做了一個動作,就是把門打開,不再封閉,同樣的我說的是這個年紀,我不會因為這個年紀而改變我的觀念,"},{"start":746.3,"end":746.34,"text":"謝謝吳沛憶委員"}]}},{"id":"152833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d708573f22db19f3888b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d2017d5025eb6a0fa74945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:09:06 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12:18:16","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":550,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:18:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:09:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":891,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好，首先恭喜你榮任金管會新主委。","賴清德總統在520就職演說的時候提到，針對物價、房價、貧富差距的問題要不斷地改善。如果要談改善的話，就必須誠實面對我們現在的狀況。我相信不管是透過國泰房地產指數還是信義房價指數─投影片上寫的baseline都是從2016年開始，一直到2024年Q1，可以很清楚地看得出來，那個攀升的幅度是非常驚人的。當然我們在看房價指數的時候不能只看房價指數，所以我們如果把房價指數跟薪資的成長率以及我們GDP的成長一起放進來看的話，除了可以很清楚看到薪資的成長率，如果我們以2016年當做baseline的話，到2023年是漲了15%，我們的GDP漲了34%，再往上我們的房價指數漲了大概51%，因此年輕世代所在面臨的是他們的薪資永遠沒有辦法追上房價升高的速度，這個是一個客觀存在的事實，而不只是一個主觀的感受。當然當我們在討論房價所得比的時候通常政府有兩個政策工具，一個是稅制，稅制的部分可能跟財政部會比較有關係；另外一個就是金融政策，也就是金管會在有關於規範金融機構放款的時候它是一個非常重要的政策調控工具。面對這樣子的狀況，主委，在善用金管會所擁有的政策工具的時候，您有沒有什麼樣的想法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點可不可以容許我請銀行局來幫我回答這問題，可以嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可是你是主委啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。當然這部分就我所知就是銀行在針對不動產放款有一定的比例限制，有一些政策性上面的鼓勵，這個都是有助於幫助年輕人，在做放款的時候有些政策，我想這部分我們能夠幫助到年輕人的我們會持續來推動。至於還有有關不要過度集中於在某個地方，我想相關的規定也有一些規範，那……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，時間的關係我必須要插一下，就我的理解，主委您是保險的專家嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不敢，對。"],["黃委員國昌：可能銀行端的部分未來也在主委您的範圍之內。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：因為主委您剛上任，我相信有必要給您一定的時間去全盤思考跟規劃怎麼樣達成新政府內閣……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：總統就職演說的時候講得很清楚，房價的問題必須要改善。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我以下就帶主委看一下過去發生的狀況，在2020年的時候，央行已經警告我們的不動產貸款占整個金融機構放款比例的35.8%，在2020年的時候事實上已經太高了，因為如果過多的銀行貸款融資是跑到有關於不動產建築業的貸款的話，那事實上它有可能會推升整個房價不斷上升。因為我們希望銀行的資金是拿來促進實體經濟而不是拿來炒房的，我相信這樣子的一個政策目標主委您應該是認同的吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是居住正義。"],["黃委員國昌：好。問題是雖然央行在2020年就已經發出警訊了，但事實上情況好像沒有變好，而越來越嚴重！到2024年1月的時候，其實有關於不動產的放款已經爬升到銀行整個融資的37.44%了，也就是情況比2020年的時候還要惡化，這個會牽涉到，具體的數字我相信銀行局的同仁或金管會的同仁可以幫你整理得很好。從實際上面來看一看，我們如果只focus在銀行建築業的貸款的話，你會發現從2016年的1兆6,161億到2018年的1兆7,825億，平均每個月增加62億，但是從2018年8月以後到去年年底的時候，平均每月增加已經到了233億，那個攀升的速度相當相當的驚人！如果我們再進一步擴大的看，不是只有銀行建築的貸款而是整個銀行房地產的放款餘額的話，這個數字更是驚人，從2018年到去年年底增加了4兆5,866億，也就是非常多銀行的融資跑到了不動產市場當中，它推高了整個房價。也正是因為這個樣子，事實上在銀行法第七十二條之二規範，商業銀行辦理住宅以及企業放款的總額，不可以超過它所收存款以及金融債券發行額的30%，我相信這個主委很清楚，但是事實上過去金管會在這個30%的限額又開了一個新的後門。剛剛我在做比較的時候，為什麼以2018年來當做一個切分的時間點是有它的道理在的，針對這樣子的一個政策，金管會做了這樣子的事情所產生實際的效果，剛剛主委應該可以看得出來，它的效果是很劇烈的，所以上次……","這個我都跳過去，因為時間到了，我只講最後一件事，因此上次我在跟央行總裁，也是在財政委員會進行質詢的時候，我有提醒央行總裁這樣子的事情，他也認同當房價不斷飆升的時候，不動產放款的比例，現在我不是講絕對值喔，連比例本身都在不斷的攀升的時候，在這樣的情況之下我們的金管會還幫不動產的放款開了後門，去迴避掉銀行法第七十二條之二的規定，這件事情本身恐怕有再思考的必要。因此我那時候建議央行的總裁，這件事情可能在配合他們整體性的貨幣政策，到你們金管會在規範有關不動產放款的融資、銀行商業貸款的融資的規範上面可能要找金管會談一談，您上任了以後跟總裁見過面了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：之前見過，上任之後還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：上任以後還沒有嘛，我希望主委能夠關注這個問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：您剛上任的時候該給您的時間跟空間，我相信每一位關心不同議題的委員都會願意給您這樣的時間，但是這件事情是以現在進行式非常快速而且惡化的在發生，我拜託主委一定要特別關注這樣的事情，因為金管會手上其實對於抑制房價不斷攀升是有不錯的政策工具，希望您就任金管會主委以後能夠在這些政策的調整上協助我們的新政府實現居住正義的價值。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以、可以，這樣非常清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我希望下次再跟您見面的時候，對我們今天主題的討論就會再更深一步了。好，謝謝！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝黃委員，謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.835968750000001,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.636593750000003,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.125968750000002,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":18.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.67784375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.60534375,"end":27.402218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.621593750000002,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.629718750000002,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.739093750000002,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.04221875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.20221875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.26409375,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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那有請彭主委您彭主委主委好首先恭喜您榮任金管會的主委拉希德總統在5209指引說的時候有提到針對於物價、房價、貧富差距的問題要不斷的改善"},{"start":29.91,"end":46.243,"text":"如果我們談改善的話就必須要誠實面對我們現在的狀況我相信不管是透過國泰房地產指數還是信譽房價指數我上面寫的base line是從2016年開始"},{"start":47.461,"end":76.09,"text":"一直到2024年的Q1可以很清楚地看得出來那個攀升的幅度是非常驚人的當然我們在看房價指數的時候不能只看房價指數所以我們如果把房價指數跟薪資的成長率以及我們GDP的成長率一起放進來看的話除了可以很清楚地看到薪資的成長率如果我們以2016年當作base line的話"},{"start":77.391,"end":89.121,"text":"在2023年是漲了15%我們的GDP漲了34%再往上我們的房價指數漲了大概51%"},{"start":92.043,"end":117.441,"text":"因此年輕的世代他們所在面臨的他們的薪資永遠沒有辦法追上房價升高的速度這個是一個客觀存在的事實那不是只是一個主觀的感受當然當我們在討論房價所值比的時候通常政府有兩個政策工具一個是稅制稅制的部分可能跟財政部會比較有關係但是另外一個"},{"start":118.382,"end":140.365,"text":"就是金融政策也就是說金管會在有關於規範我們的金融機構在放款的時候他是一個非常重要的政策調控工具那面對這樣子的狀況主委在善用金管會所擁有的政策工具的時候你有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":144.071,"end":149.698,"text":"這點可不可以容許我請銀行局來幫我回答這問題,可以嗎?可是你是主委喔?對"},{"start":152.219,"end":178.044,"text":"當然就是這部分就我所知就是銀行我們在針對這個不通財的放款有一定的比率的限制有一些政策性上面的鼓勵這個都是有助於在比如說幫助年輕人在做放款的時候有些政策我想這部分我們能夠幫助到年輕人我們會持續來推動那至於說還有就是有關不要過度集中於在某個地方我想這個相關的規定也有一些規範"},{"start":179.324,"end":204.854,"text":"那我不好意思時間的關係我必須要插一下我的理解是主委您是保險的專家嘛不敢對那可能在銀行端的部分未來也在您主委的範圍之內那因為您剛上任啊主委我相信有必要要給您一定的時間去全盤的思考跟規劃怎麼樣達成新政府內閣"},{"start":206.315,"end":223.909,"text":"所在總統就職演說的時候講得很清楚房價的問題必須要改善那我以下就代主委看一下過去發生的狀況在2020年的時候央行已經警告我們不動產貸款"},{"start":226.011,"end":250.241,"text":"在整個金融機構放款的比例35.8%在2020年的時候事實上已經太高了因為如果過多的銀行貸款的融資是跑到有關於不動產建築業的貸款的話那事實上它有可能會推升整個房價不斷的上升因為我們希望"},{"start":251.401,"end":260.868,"text":"銀行的資金是拿來促進實體經濟而不是拿來炒房的我相信這樣子的一個政策目標主委您應該是認同的吧"},{"start":261.89,"end":281.743,"text":"當然居住這裡這是好但問題是雖然央行在2020年就已經發出警訊了但事實上情況好像沒有變好越來越嚴重到2024年1月的時候其實有關於不動產的放款已經到銀行整個融資的爬升到37.44%了也就是情況比2020年的時候還要惡化"},{"start":288.907,"end":307.033,"text":"這個會牽涉到說具體的數字我相信銀行局的同仁或金管會的同仁可以幫你整理得很好你實際上面來看一看我們如果只focus在銀行建築業的貸款的話你會發現從2016年的一兆6161億到2018年的一兆7825億平均每個月增加62億"},{"start":314.935,"end":339.309,"text":"但是從2018年8月以後到去年年底的時候平均每月增加已經到了233億那個攀升的速度相當相當的驚人那如果我們再進一步擴大的看不是只有銀行建築的貸款而是到整個銀行房地產的放款餘額的話那個數字更是驚人"},{"start":340.45,"end":360.938,"text":"更是驚人增加了從2018年到去年年底的時候增加了4.5866億也就是說非常多銀行的融資跑到了不動產市場當中那推高了整個房價也正是因為這個樣子事實上在銀行法72條之2"},{"start":362.719,"end":382.632,"text":"我們規範三月銀行辦理住宅以及企業放款的總額不可以超過他所收存款以及金融債券發行額的百分之三十我相信這個主委你很清楚但是過去的金管會他事實上在這個百分之三十的限額他又開了一個新的後門"},{"start":383.593,"end":411.825,"text":"又開了一個新的後門剛剛我在做比較的時候為什麼以2018年來當作一個切分的時間點是有他的道理在的那針對這樣子的一個政策針對這樣子的一個政策監管會做了這樣子的事情所產生實際的效果剛剛主委應該可以看得出來他的效果是很劇烈的所以上次這個我都跳過去了我因為時間到了我只講最後一件事"},{"start":413.186,"end":440.094,"text":"因此上次我在跟央行總裁也是在財政委員會進行質詢的時候我有提醒央行總裁這樣子的事情他也認同說當房價不斷飆升的時候不動產放款的比例現在我不是講絕對值喔連比例本身都在不斷的攀升的時候在這樣的情況之下我們的金管會還幫不動產的放款開了後門開了後門去"},{"start":443.593,"end":462.496,"text":"回避掉銀行法72條之二的規定那這件事情本身這件事情本身恐怕有需要再思考的必要那因此我那時候建議央行的總裁這件事情可能在配合他們整體性的"},{"start":463.497,"end":476.351,"text":"貨幣的政策到你們金管會在規範有關於不動產放款的融資銀行商業大款的融資的規範上面可能要找金管會談一談您上任了以後跟總裁見過面了嗎?"},{"start":479.245,"end":494.499,"text":"在應該在之前見過上任還沒有上任以後還沒有嘛那我希望說齁主任能夠關注這個問題沒有問題您剛上任的時候該給您的時間跟空間我相信每一位關心不同議題的委員都會願意"},{"start":496.821,"end":515.451,"text":"給您這樣的事件但是這件事情是以現在進行式非常快速而且惡化的在發生我要拜託主委一定要特別關注這樣的事情因為金管會手上其實對於抑制房價不斷的攀升是有不錯"},{"start":516.311,"end":540.157,"text":"的政策工具那希望您就任金管部主委以後能夠在這些政策的調整上協助我們的新政府實現居住正義的價值謝謝這樣可以嗎可以可以這樣這個非常非常謝謝好我希望下次在跟您見面的時候我們今天的主題的討論就會再更深一步了好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝總經理謝謝"},{"start":548.379,"end":549.202,"text":"下一位質詢請葛如君"}]}},{"id":"152832","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152832","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dc4fd79667344e9b13a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d20174081f7d117a098d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:11:07 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12:18:41","影片長度":"00:07:34","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":454,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:18:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:11:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":966,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時11分）謝謝邱召委，有請國發會副主委。"],["主席：請國發會。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["范委員雲：副主委好。想跟您請教，關於延攬國外專業人才，我知道要考慮產業需求，我只是想除了產業需求之外，社會的需求不知道是不是也能夠一起考慮？請問您對外籍專業人才的想像，可以簡單跟我說是怎麼出來的嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。這個法裡面有包括外國特定專業人才，還有一般專業人才，外國特定專業人才就如委員所說的，我們會考慮大概有十項類別，除了經濟、科技，也包括演藝、新聞、教育等各個領域，臺灣所需要的人才都有主管部會設定一定的標準，積極延攬。我們會提供他們一些稅務、或者是工作、或是簽證上的便利。"],["范委員雲：了解。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：關於一般專業人才，基本上就是就服法的相關規定，只要雇主符合僱用的條件，這些受僱者也符合一定的條件，都可以延攬進入臺灣工作。"],["范委員雲：我想如果我們跟日本、新加坡、韓國比的話，他們有針對中階技術人力發放工作簽證，臺灣跟這三個國家相比，因為我們也是人口老化國家，他們的中階技術人力如果在臺灣，有辦法取得相關簽證嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得分兩個部分，一般專業人才只要符合就服法的規定，有雇主願意僱用，就業條件是月薪47,971元，以及大學畢業加兩年工作經驗，就可以進入臺灣。我想中階技術人力有一部分是屬於這塊的人力。"],["范委員雲：了解。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：另外一方面，我們有勞工久留方案，就是移工留才久用方案，就是在臺灣已經有6年以上工作經驗、符合一定條件的移工，也屬於中階技術人力，就可以留下來。","另外一種是僑外生。僑外生如果拿到學士學位，依照僑外生評點制度，even不需要工作經驗，就可以留在臺灣。所以有不同的管道，我們會讓這些專業人力還有中階技術人力都可以留在臺灣。"],["范委員雲：好。我現在想問，勞動部的新聞有預告外國人以後可以在臺灣當社工師，「衛福部認同：具專業性」。請問副主委，如果是社工師會符合目前已有的相關規定嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得應該是外國專業人才就符合。我剛剛有講過，他只要有雇主，而且他有薪資47,971元、大學畢業兩年工作經驗，都可以，不會有產業之分，類別應該也是在這裡面。"],["范委員雲：現在我的問題是，因為我們所了解的，申請來臺需求有一項是月薪達47,971元，這樣沒錯吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，這是一般專業人才。"],["范委員雲：所以你的意思是社工師不需要走一般專業人才這條路嗎？因為我們看社工師的平均薪資，其實並沒有到40,000元，113年起社工師調整的起薪只有37,000元吔，這部分的矛盾怎麼解決？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我剛才說有三個管道，基本上如果他走的是一般專業人才，的確要符合月薪47,971元。"],["范委員雲：是。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：可是如果他是僑外生，用評點制度就……"],["范委員雲：但如果不是僑外生呢？僑外生點數加起來會夠，這是我們知道的，這是一個不錯的累積辦法。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，是。"],["范委員雲：可是今天他如果走的不是僑外生這條路呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就還是要符合就服法的相關規定。"],["范委員雲：那這樣我們開放的意義跟實際之間的矛盾，我想問的是，為什麼社工師不被當成是個專業？我們考量的到底是一個國家的產業，譬如某些工程需要，還是也看到社會的需求？社工不被認為是個產業，很多都是政府部門或者NGO外包，我們看不到其實社會也有這個需求。因為社工師的薪資，以我知道在其他國家是比臺灣更高，他可能想要來臺灣，也許有別的原因，數量也不是很大。可是這裡你就會發現，他有卡關，跟勞動部之間的政策是矛盾的，所以想請問副主委這個問題。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，因為一般專業人才的法規主管部會還是勞動部，在沒有修法之前，的確一定要符合月薪47,971元的相關規定。我是不是可以請勞動部主秘來說明，當初設定這個標準的立法意旨跟原則是怎麼樣，在社工師的適用是怎麼樣？"],["范委員雲：因為我時間快到了，是不是可以簡短說明，好嗎？所以這件事是不需要處理的嗎？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：跟委員報告，目前專業人才的薪資設定47,971元，是為了確保他提供的專業服務符合市場認定是屬於專業。"],["范委員雲：所以一定要很高階的社工才能夠來嗎？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：這是一個，我剛剛講這是其中一條路。剛剛副主委也有提到，其實目前用評點制，社工師一樣也可以納入適用，他就沒有……"],["范委員雲：不是，那他等於必須要在臺灣唸大學，才能用僑生的身分累積更多的點數。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是。"],["范委員雲：所以基本上你們社工師只對在臺灣唸完大學的僑生開放嗎？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：只要取得社工師證照，就可以符合，不見得要在臺灣唸書。"],["范委員雲：可是取得社工師證照，他的薪資並沒有達到這個標準啊！"],["陳主任秘書世昌：薪資的部分，我們並沒有……"],["范委員雲：我想這兩個部會之間顯然溝通是有一點問題。陳主秘您請回，謝謝。","我想跟副主委討論的是，我覺得國發會的攬才計畫，精神上我非常支持，我只是希望除了產業需求之外，也能夠看到社會跟弱勢人民的需求，當然如何保障本國人民的就業利益跟公共利益之間，要作一個權衡，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["范委員雲：可以在一個月內給我一個書面報告，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好、好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：謝謝副主委，謝謝召委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.856593750000002,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.11221875,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.844718750000002,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.72534375,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.978468750000005,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.031593750000006,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.487218750000004,"end":50.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.85846875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.45221875,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.17534375000001,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.38971875,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.04659375,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.18471875,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.26471875,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.57659375,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.02284375,"end":124.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.09159375,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.96471875,"end":130.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.93034375000002,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.96721875,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.37034375000002,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.02846875,"end":152.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.81721875000002,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.32971875,"end":168.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.91596875000002,"end":169.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.89471875,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.31909375,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.35284375,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.45409375,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.70284375,"end":188.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.86221875,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.96471875,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.21284375000002,"end":213.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.94409375,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.85096875000002,"end":259.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.79909375000003,"end":242.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.44034375,"end":242.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.52471875,"end":242.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.41284375000004,"end":256.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.31096875000003,"end":260.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.91846875000005,"end":274.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.74784375,"end":311.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.98784375,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.77534375000005,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.47721875,"end":330.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.79346875000005,"end":332.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.60346875000005,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.97471875,"end":334.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.43846875,"end":357.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.94846875,"end":339.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.38034375,"end":357.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.59534375000004,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.64596875,"end":357.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.96659375,"end":358.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.05096875000004,"end":359.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.36721875,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.87346875000003,"end":362.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.87721875,"end":362.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.33659375,"end":369.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.77471875000003,"end":381.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.31346875,"end":379.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.74784375,"end":383.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.87409375000004,"end":392.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.22721875,"end":405.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.80409375000005,"end":398.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.17846875000004,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.52784375000005,"end":415.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.47221875,"end":419.37471875},{"speaker":"SPE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謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長請鄭部長部長早部長午安首先恭喜部長承擔起我們法務部的這個重責大任那我看過去部長的這個經歷在廉政跟這個檢查體系都有豐富的資歷跟經驗那對於法務部的相關業務應該可以馬上上手那有鑒於我們現在社會大眾"},{"start":44.713,"end":66.104,"text":"目前對於司法的這種信任度跟滿意度的不夠理想那本席也期待在您上任之後的這個法務部能夠盡快做出讓民眾有感的司法改革那在這裡我想先請教部長跟您聊聊在您上任後的100天您最希望能夠完成什麼樣的目標"},{"start":68.168,"end":96.008,"text":"我想要我們民眾最痛恨的就是就總統有講的就是黑金槍毒炸那我想我們在北內我們是希望能夠交出一個第一次的成績單出來那另外在法案的推動我們希望能夠能夠在立法院我們能夠趕緊去進入到法條的一個一個法案的一個審查這是我最期待的這個打炸四法這個是給"},{"start":97.329,"end":97.369,"text":"：陳俊宇"},{"start":116.616,"end":135.396,"text":"那就剛剛部長您回答的那在這個520就職典禮上確實賴清德總統還有之前這個就是接任的這個卓榮泰院長都已經公開宣誓過了新政府要積極的打擊這個黑金槍毒和詐騙這是施政的一個重點"},{"start":136.337,"end":158.331,"text":"所以也請部長一定要去落實能夠在100天內有一個好的成績從近期的這個媒體所公布的民調結果民眾最關心的就是詐騙防制的問題部長您先前在這個臺北地檢署相信最了解這個基層被海量的詐騙案詐欺案所淹沒的情況"},{"start":159.252,"end":180.624,"text":"那部長您認為我們除了人力的這個緣額增補之外我們應該要怎樣來協助檢察官能夠在合理的這個工作量下也兼顧打詐的這個量呢那其實我在當檢察長的經驗的確我們案件每年就逐步的一個成長不過現在我們在整個一個打詐的一個"},{"start":181.63,"end":181.69,"text":"陳俊宇"},{"start":201.135,"end":201.315,"text":"陳俊宇議員"},{"start":230.543,"end":230.663,"text":"陳俊宇議員"},{"start":252.72,"end":254.101,"text":"我希望部長您能以一個過來人的身份"},{"start":277.822,"end":285.465,"text":"來體恤我們這些檢察官由您的部長的帶領之下重新讓我們法務部有一番不同的氣息"},{"start":288.277,"end":305.13,"text":"我們現在有許多的這個機關首長都會在社群媒體上和民眾有一個直接的互動那除了重大的這個政令宣導之外也能夠讓民眾了解到我們部會的這個日常的業務那我看到在臉書上大部分的這個內閣都已經有開這個粉絲專頁"},{"start":308.553,"end":334.534,"text":"可是我們法務部好像只有經營這個IG那民眾很多的資訊來源還是來自臉書司法院也常常在粉專上分享時事和普及這個法學知識那我想請教我們部長是不是也考慮在臉書上開一個我們這個法務部或是您的這個粉絲專頁能夠讓民眾來知道我們法務部在做什麼也能夠將我們的政策盡速的傳達給民眾"},{"start":336.875,"end":358.92,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我們回去看看我們這部分有沒有辦法去做一個粉絲專我想可以把這些我們這些的檢察官還有我們法務部同仁的各項的一個政策亮點以及執行的一個成效包括我們保護被害人這部分司法保護這部分我們把這亮點我們再來用這些委員所提到的這些我們再來努力"},{"start":360.04,"end":382.574,"text":"另外就是我們最近在網路上有一個新型態的這個詐騙手法我想跟部長您來討論就是有不肖份子他假冒宜蘭國際這個同萬節的名義來開設一個粉專並且利用這個提前報名獲得禮券的優惠或是抽百萬好禮等字眼甚至還有模仿活動官方的這個"},{"start":385.416,"end":400.995,"text":"發布一模一樣的公讀生招募的訊息誘導民眾加入這個LINE群組來騙取個資那同案節是宜蘭一個年度的大型活動這個活動期這個期程也都是在暑假期間那所以被詐騙的對象"},{"start":402.096,"end":428.162,"text":"很可能都是我們這些年輕的學子對於這樣的假冒現府活動的這種行騙各自的行為通常會希望要求平台業者盡速協助下架這個詐騙的廣告相信我們這個主要的平台也都有富有這個社會的責任一起在這個打詐可是我想請教部長就是說有關這個即時下架"},{"start":428.962,"end":428.982,"text":"請次長"},{"start":453.513,"end":470.998,"text":"各位報告,在打渣專法裡面就這個投放廣告部分他有設一個專門的規定在打渣專法通過之前我們現在投信投顧法就這一個投資廣告就有一個機制所以向司法檢查機關投訴司法檢查機關可以跟相關的廣告業者進行下架的程序"},{"start":479.192,"end":487.135,"text":"從業務部的報告看起來我們至少在台灣的主流使用平台上包括Meta還有Line還有Google上面"},{"start":487.915,"end":508.828,"text":"業者都比較積極配合那如果今天我們使用的這個平台不是我們的主流這個跨國的網路平台例如現在年輕人很多使用的這個抖音還有小紅書這些平台上面有詐騙的這個資訊能否同樣要求業者來協助下架或是有跨國之間規範上的困難存在"},{"start":509.568,"end":537.998,"text":"各位報告這跨國的部分當然是未來我們打造專法裡面就要求這個他必須要在臺灣要有相關的設立的所謂的法律代理人的制度啦他要必須有相關下交的規定那目前為止的話在打造方專法通過之前目前的話我們當然就檢察官的部分我們在這個我們的這個臺港檢察組他有相關的跟各大平臺的聯絡方式給各檢察官那基本上"},{"start":538.678,"end":560.812,"text":"目前我們還是希望就是說業者他自律的方式來下架好那我想我們這個網路的這個詐騙是五花八門難以概括所有的犯罪形態但對於已經發生或是正在發生的這些詐騙行為我們都應該從各方面積極的來防治那公部門還是部門通力合作也呼應到"},{"start":561.332,"end":589.818,"text":"最前面的這個民調所提及的就是回應民眾最擔心的詐騙防治的這個問題那我也希望說部長在這邊可以率同我們相關部會會繼續來精進我們所有的這個防詐的行為那再來我想請教最後一個問題就是這兩天令大眾相當憂心的一位這個殺人未遂判刑確定的監護處分人的從醫院脫逃的事件"},{"start":591.338,"end":610.87,"text":"因為被通緝的證明男子具有攻擊性且過往有傷害他人的紀錄所以對於他脫逃之後形狀不明的情況可以說是造成人心惶惶那因為他脫逃是從基隆現在北北基甚至到桃都已經這個對於學校部分都已經禁止這個訪客了"},{"start":613.912,"end":641.084,"text":"那所以我們了解到他目前所接受的是在這個刑期執行前的這個監護處分是希望他接受精神治療並這個減緩病情之後再進入矯正機關來服刑那但讓大家難以理解的是怎麼會發生這種脫逃的事件以前有過這個相關的這個案子嗎這次是因為我們管理上的疏失還是執行上遭遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":643.62,"end":644.161,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":660.189,"end":676.092,"text":"這部分我們會做一個檢討我們希望司法精神病院這部分我們可以逐步推動到位目前在高雄凱旋醫院有收治的病房這部分我們會去檢視我們跟我們簽約這些醫院的收治的醫院的安全維護的措施"},{"start":684.974,"end":685.134,"text":"執行處所"},{"start":702.45,"end":727.585,"text":"這次這個可能是在這個社區裡面那也有可能只是一般的這個診所的規模而已我想請教這個我們對於監護這個處分執行處所的這個配置機制是否足夠那也想請問對於我們監護處分人脫逃的這個通報機制譬如說這個處所管區的警察是否能夠在10分鐘內有效掌握到這個脫逃的狀況"},{"start":729.929,"end":734.871,"text":"那剛剛部長你也回答了就是針對我們法務部會繼續推動這個司法精神病院的部分我也希望說我們這個跟續推動讓我們相關的這個需求"},{"start":758.16,"end":761.709,"text":"能夠有一個合理的處置。好,謝謝部長跟次長。好,謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長、次長。"}]}},{"id":"152830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d454f371602a33cf842979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20173cbf50dea0cea1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:46:35 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11:59:10","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":755,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-24"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:59:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:46:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1288,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時46分）謝謝，麻煩部長及次長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長以及黃次長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長好、次長好。我來這裡已經三個多月，其實我不會作無理的質詢，畢竟我們對於檢察業務算是熟悉，所以我的質詢都是針對有問題的地方，提出來讓大家來討論。","首先我想先提一個東西，其實我到這裡比較辛苦的一件事是常常要幫大家上法律課，現在也是要在這裡再提醒一個東西、要再幫各位委員上一次法律課。剛剛吳思瑤委員對部長提到一點，我個人認為那是違反現行制度的，所以我在這邊要提醒一下。我們昨天審查立法院職權行使法時，針對第四十七條及第四十八條進行討論，但是她剛剛講了一個點，如果有違憲的問題，法務部這邊就不能處理之類的，也就是她剛剛有提到，如果相關法律有違憲的話，法務部這邊不能處理。我在這邊必須向兩位說明，其實違憲與否不是法務部認定，我想這個應該沒有問題。我們可以認為有違憲之虞，但法務部沒有權力認為這條法律有違憲之虞就不處理，惡法亦法，我們念法律的人都知道嘛！其實我很喜歡與法律界的人或實務界的人討論法律，因為大家都會在一個水準之上去討論法律，不會亂講，但是來這裡之後我覺得很辛苦的就是有些人要跟你談法律，但對方是胡說八道，我們就必須花很多時間告訴對方法律的規定是如何，但對方又不相信、認為你是亂講。我想部長及次長應該能夠理解我說的，以法務部的立場、以檢察官的立場，不能自行認定這條法律違憲，所以就不做，對不對？惡法亦法，我想兩位應該理解我在說什麼，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，理解。"],["吳委員宗憲：一個法律只要被大法官宣告違憲，我們就一定不能做，我百分之百都能夠接受，但是不能說法務部覺得這個可能違憲就不做，這是不對的，對不對？請教部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是正確的。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，即便是院方法官在審理案子的時候，認為這個條文有違憲之虞，院方法官也只能停止訴訟來聲請釋憲，部長，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以絕對不存在法務部執行法律時認為有違憲之虞就不做，我想這個部分要向兩位說明，甚至是報告也可以，向兩位說剛剛吳思瑤委員的建議真是萬萬不可，那是違反法制的，以上是向兩位說明的部分。我們法律人常常講惡法亦法，如果遇到不好的法律、遇到違憲的法律，我們的積極作為就是趕快拜託立法院修法或趕快找管道，譬如立法委員去聲請釋憲，我想這個才是正確的法制作法。","接下是延續剛剛的臨時提案，有關於偵查不公開的部分，部長，你在擔任廉政署署長的時候，其實蠻積極主張揭弊者保護法，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那時候有推動。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實揭弊者保護法很重要的點就是我們要讓知道有不好事情的人能夠勇於揭發，這個是沒有錯的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，它的立法就是要保護揭弊者。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是避免有一些揭弊者在揭弊之後導致身家受影響或工作受影響，我想這是這個法律的立法目的，應該是沒有什麼問題。再加上剛剛在處理臨時提案時我有提到，很多時候是被調查人名譽的問題，因為你我都知道，其實有很多案子查到最後發現是烏龍一場，但是前階段因為違反偵查不公開的洩密行為已經讓他很慘了。我之前在這裡也向所有人報告過我以前偵辦案件的實際例子，在我辦的貪污治罪條例中他只是基層公務員，案子來了，它只是一個他字案而已，但因為案由是貪污治罪條例，在我向他問完案子，而且我是很客氣地向他問案，因為我覺得那個案子根本不會成立，所以我非常客氣的向他問完之後，開完庭就請他離開，原本我認為應該是皆大歡喜，於是就趕快幫他簽結，但他還轉過頭來告訴我，我一輩子也忘不了，他告訴我，檢察官，你這張傳票害慘了我一輩子，因為那張傳票是貪污治罪條例，他的長官嚇得半死、他家裡的人也嚇得半死，而且長官也馬上將他調至比較不重要的位子。因為那件事給我的印象很深刻，所以後來我在帶學習司法官的時候，我都會拿這個例子告訴我帶過的每一位學習司法官，因為法官、檢察官一個不經意的動作，甚至是一張傳票就會害慘一個人的一輩子，更何況違反偵查不公開。","我在這裡沒有要替任何人講話，我們不講特定個案，今天不管是民間企業、不管是政治人物，甚至是私人、甚至是家庭糾紛，可能都會因為我們違反偵查不公開而受害，甚至是被社會公審。部長、次長，你們也知道其實有很多這樣的例子，前面已經被社會罵到社會死了，後面發現狀況原來不是這樣，所以請部長、次長一定要非常非常用心來改善偵查不公開的問題。尤其是特定媒體總是在執行後馬上將大量資料丟出來，那個資料detail的細節已經到一般人不可能會知道的程度。就像我剛剛向兩位報告的，我去問過當事人，它連他家扣多少錢都知道，而且不是地檢署發的新聞稿，他沒有辦法接受啊！連在他的保險箱裡的基本護照都知道，我覺得這樣是不對的，再麻煩兩位能夠……","譬如最近發生的詐騙集團的案子，其實這個案子很重傷我們司法圈，因為扯到法官、扯到檢察官，連檢察官及法官都涉入了，還有一群律師也都涉入其中。譬如這張監視器的畫面，這是院方的監視器拍到的，院方有沒有可能給？當然有可能啊！但我也擔心是不是檢方流出去的，因為院方會隨便記者來要監視器畫面就給嗎？其實我是打一個問號。雖然我沒辦法說這個案子是檢方洩漏偵查的資料，但這也許是要讓我們去反省，因為一次一次發生這樣的事情，讓民眾對我們的信任度越來越低、對司法的信任度越來越低。我向兩位報告，你我或在座的每一個人都可能是被害人，說真的，在我擔任檢察官的二十年裡也有當事人對我不爽而去檢舉我，同事偵辦後發現是亂扯的，我想兩位以前也接辦過檢舉同仁的案子，像我以前肅貪時也辦過很多檢舉同仁的案子，如果這個洩漏出去對同仁的傷害會有多重。所以至少我在這裡的四年一定會盯緊偵查不公開，因為這個對官員、對公務員、對民眾都是存在著很大的風險。","這段時間我有發現一個狀況，依據偵查不公開的檢討小組，我發現這段時間它檢討出來的數字狀況是很不好的，雖然我們檢討的件數很多，但是就108年至112年在機關內部的查處人數是0，每個案子都洩漏得這麼澈底，我們不要講遠的案子，就講這次有法官、檢察官涉入的詐欺集團的案子，它就把內部多少的資料都流出來了，難道法務部可以不用心去處理嗎？","再來，我還想提一個比較實務面的問題，雖然我們一直說對於媒體記者與檢察官之間的管制是否要處理好，但是我們都知道，現在的檢察官都是二、三人一間或三、四人一間，我們現在的卷連櫃子都放不下，以前我當檢察官的時候幾乎就是在卷海裡面，桌上、櫃子、地上都是滿滿的卷宗，甚至連走路都還要跨過卷宗，如果今天我們沒有很嚴格的管制記者與檢察官之間的拜訪，這些記者進入辦公室是可以翻閱到那些卷宗的耶！常常我們會去外勤、去內勤或去開庭，人不在辦公室，有時候整間辦公室都沒有檢察官在，以前我在士檢老地檢署擔任檢察官時是五個人一間，曾經我進辦公室時就只有記者一個人在辦公室，因為大家都出去忙了。這個也不能怪記者，只是我們是不是應該要有一個規範出來，讓大家就依照這個規範走？","檢察官與記者不是不能接觸，我也有很多的記者好朋友，但是公歸公、私歸私，大家還是要嚴守一些本分嘛！我們要不要檢討一下，應該要設採訪區，既然設置了就要嚴格適用。像我去高檢署的時候，它有一個接待室，我想找哪位檢察官就必須先確認那位檢察官在或他來帶我，這樣我才能進得去，是不是要有這類相關的規範？而不是有些記者想去哪就去哪，即使他要找的檢察官不在，他也是直接就跑去那間辦公室。如果有其他檢察官在，我相信記者就不敢亂翻別人的卷，但是如果都沒有人在的時候會不會？這個我就不敢說了。","其實這個與查詐欺集團一樣，你要查幕後首腦很難查，但是我們做源頭的管理，也就是查那個帳戶，一樣，我們要查到底是誰洩密，真的是不容易，但我們是不是可以從可能的消息來源管道去控管一下，也就是記者與檢察官之間的狀況。記者要找檢察官不是不行，但你要先確認那位檢察官在，而且由那位檢察官負責從頭到尾的接待，否則他會不會怎麼做，我不清楚。拜託不要讓偵查不公開變成是偵查大公開，或讓特定媒體每次都放出很傷人的新聞，好不好？部長，可以嗎？依照我們今天提的臨時動議去處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們就遵照臨時動議執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：處理得如何，也麻煩再向我們說一聲，我們就一直保持著溝通，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委、謝謝部長及次長。我們的臨提是到6月底前，謝謝。","接下來請陳委員俊宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-24","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","林思銘","謝龍介","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","羅智強","林德福","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.71784375,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.63221875,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.62784375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.57284375,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.09909375,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.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那我們麻煩部長還有次長有請鄭部長以及黃次長委員好部長好 次長好我想說 因為我自己來這邊上個多月我以來我的質詢我不會去做無理的質詢因為畢竟我們對檢查業務應該算是熟悉所以我質詢會都是針對我覺得針對有問題的地方然後大家來做討論"},{"start":37.609,"end":62.03,"text":"現在我這邊我想先提一個東西因為我到這邊來比較辛苦一件事是常常要幫大家上法律課那我在這邊也要再提醒一個東西要再幫各位委員上一次法律課就是剛剛因為吳世耀委員他有提到一個點而且是對部長說那我個人認為那個是違反現行制度的所以我這邊要提醒一下就是說他剛剛吳世耀委員確實有提到"},{"start":63.112,"end":70.846,"text":"我們在審查立法之間新司法昨天就立法部分有有就47條48條去討論嘛那因為他剛剛講的一個點說"},{"start":76.357,"end":76.957,"text":"違憲與否不是法務部認定"},{"start":95.97,"end":95.99,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":119.668,"end":144.075,"text":"他跟你談法律但是他胡說八道然後我們必須花很多時間去跟他說法律規定這樣他又變不相信說你在亂講所以我想說部長次長應該能夠理解我說的嗎以法務部的立場以檢察官的立場他不能自行認定說這條法律違憲所以我不做對不對二法一法我想我想兩位應該理解我在說什麼嗎是部長是要理解"},{"start":145.146,"end":145.186,"text":"這是正確"},{"start":162.934,"end":163.474,"text":"委員會主管列席報告"},{"start":186.122,"end":210.308,"text":"說明甚至報告也可以跟兩位說剛剛吳宗憲那個建議真是萬萬不可那是違反法制的再跟兩位說明一下這個部分所以說我們法律人常講二法一法如果遇到不好的法律遇到違憲我們能積極的作為就是趕快拜託立法院修法或趕快找管道例如說立法委員去申請釋憲我想這才是正確的法制做法"},{"start":211.468,"end":218.159,"text":"好那接下來我想請教一下就是延續剛剛我們的臨時提案就是有關"},{"start":221.897,"end":249.922,"text":"有關這偵查不公開的部分我想部長你在擔任那個聯政署署長的時候其實有提到就是就是有其實蠻積極主張這個那個接避者保護法嘛對不對我們部長有推動對那其實接避者保護法其實一個很重要的點就是我們要讓知道有不好事情的人能夠勇於揭發我想這個這個是沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":250.562,"end":268.025,"text":"對,是他立法就是要保護那個接避者嘛是,就是避免說有一些接避者他在接避之後他不會說身家受影響或工作受影響我想這個是這個法律的立法目的我覺得這個應該不是應該沒有什麼問題"},{"start":269.426,"end":269.446,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":284.107,"end":307.856,"text":"但是前階段因為違反偵查不公開的泄密行為已經讓他很慘了那我之前在這個地方有跟所有的人報告過我以前自己偵辦案件的實際例子是我辦貪污罪條例他只是基層公務員然後案子來他只是一個他治案而已但是因為案由是貪污罪條例他來之後我跟他問完案子而且我是"},{"start":308.456,"end":308.476,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":327.691,"end":357.371,"text":"因為那張傳票上面是貪污職位條例他講長官嚇得半死他家裡面的人也嚇得半死那長官馬上把他移位置移到別的那個比較邊邊去比較不重要的位置那我的意思是這樣因為那個東西對我來說我的印象很深刻所以後來我自己在帶學習司法官的時候我都會拿這個例子告訴我帶過的每一位學習司法官因為你法官檢察官一個不經意的動作甚至一張傳票你就害慘了一個人的一輩子"},{"start":357.991,"end":359.893,"text":"更何況違反偵查不公開"},{"start":379.89,"end":401.823,"text":"那部長跟次長你也知道其實有很多例子都是這樣前面社會已經把他罵到社會死了後面發現欸狀況原來不是這樣所以請部長次長一定要非常非常非常用心我們來改善這偵查不公開的問題尤其是特定媒體總是在執行後馬上把大量資料丟出來"},{"start":402.663,"end":427.852,"text":"那個資料detail的細節已經到不可能一般人會知道的程度就像我剛剛跟兩位報告我去問過當事人他連他家扣多少錢都知道而且不是地檢署發的新聞稿他沒有辦法接受啊在他的保險箱裡面那幾本護照都知道我覺得這是不對的再麻煩兩位能夠盡量解決那下一頁那譬如說我們在講最近"},{"start":428.872,"end":455.343,"text":"最近發生這個詐騙集團的案子這個案子其實很重傷我們司法圈因為扯到法官扯到檢察官連檢察官法官都涉入進去了律師也一群都涉入在裡面那你看譬如說像這一張監視器的畫面這個是院方的監視器拍到的"},{"start":457.339,"end":482.812,"text":"委員會有沒有可能給?當然有可能啊但是這我也是擔心是不是檢方流出去的因為院方他會隨便給記者來要監視器就給嗎?其實我是打一個問號所以這個案子雖然我沒有辦法說是檢方洩漏偵查的資料但是也許這是讓我們去反省因為一次一次這樣的事情發生讓民眾對我們的信任度越來越低對司法的信任度越來越低"},{"start":483.712,"end":483.732,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":500.957,"end":523.027,"text":"兩位以前也接辦過就是檢舉同仁的案子我以前樹攤的時候也辦很多檢舉同仁的案子如果這個洩出去對同仁是傷害多重所以我還是覺得至少我在這邊這四年我一定會盯緊政黨的部分因為這個對官員對公務員對民眾都是很大的風險存在"},{"start":524.329,"end":544.971,"text":"那我們再往下看齁那這段時間我有發現一個狀況就是依據偵查不公開的檢討小組我發現這段時間他檢討出來的數字其實是狀況是很不好的雖然我們檢討的件數很多可是就108到112年其實我們機關內部查處人數是零"},{"start":548.052,"end":571.882,"text":"每一個案子都洩露的這麼的徹底我們不要講遠的案子就講這一次這個有法官檢察官涉入的這個炸雞集團的案子他就把內部多少資料都流出來了那這個難道法務部可以不去用心去處理嗎那再來還有一個問題是我想要提到比較實務面的就是"},{"start":573.14,"end":600.538,"text":"我們雖然一直有說對於媒體記者跟檢察官的之間的這個問題管制要不要把它處理好因為我們都知道嘛現在檢察官都是兩三個人一間或三四個人一間那我們現在的櫃子都放不下都只能我以前當檢察官的時候我幾乎就是在圈海裡面嘛桌上櫃子全滿地上也都是滿滿的走路還要跨過那個圈來走路那"},{"start":601.218,"end":617.994,"text":"今天如果我們沒有很嚴格的去管制記者跟甲官來拜訪的時候那這記者經理辦公室是可以翻你的卷的那常常我們有時候去外勤去內勤或去開庭人不在辦公室"},{"start":618.575,"end":618.595,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":638.188,"end":638.208,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":656.957,"end":656.977,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":681.357,"end":706.835,"text":"那如果有別的檢察官在我相信記者不敢亂翻別人的券但是如果都沒有的時候會不會我這個我不敢說那其實這個跟查詐欺集團一樣你要查幕後首腦很難查但是我們做源頭的管理就查那個帳戶那一樣我們要查到底是誰洩密真的不容易那我們是不是可以去從他可能消息來源的那個管道去控一下"},{"start":707.415,"end":735.527,"text":"就是記者跟檢察官之間的那個狀況那我們是不是可以讓記者要找檢察官不是不行但你要確認那個檢察官在由那個檢察官負責從頭到尾的接待阿否則他會不會再怎麼做我不清楚那拜託就是不要讓偵查不公開變成是偵查大公開啦或變成一些特定的媒體他每次那個新聞出來都很傷人好不好"},{"start":736.127,"end":736.827,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"152829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d2044d97acc9804ff3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d20170f7628e6d07117175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"12:03:00 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12:10:51","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":471,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:10:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T12:03:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":929,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（12時3分）主席好，有請國發會副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：副主委早安。想問一下，在109年的時候，國發會成立臺灣就業金卡辦公室，專門為國外比較專業的人才就他們的專業來提供協助跟延攬。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然透過這個一站式服務，能更有效率找到更多外國高階主管人才。但是我們看他們來臺灣工作的現況，111年的時候，包含在外國公司、我國公司以及自行創業等擁有比較高階就業金卡資格的外籍人士，還在找工作的高達5.1%，到112年也還有5.01%正在找工作當中。這到底是什麼樣的原因？這個成效是不是有待再加強？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這是一個問卷的調查報告，因為人力都有流動性，有時候會在尋職的空窗期，我個人覺得以5%來說，應該還在一個合理的範圍內。如果他進來臺灣，也許不需要找工作，他自己就是老闆；還有一種是他要找工作，總是還有一個磨合期。當然就我們的立場，我們是一站式的服務，所以他有任何的需要，我們都會提供協助。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我們看到擁有就業金卡的人，他們自身的條件、專業度應該比一般外籍人士要來得好。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以目前有沒有可能把5%的比例再縮小？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然。"],["郭委員昱晴：也許成效還可以再加強。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。也許以後問卷收回來，我們會看問卷結果，也許可以個案去做協助。"],["郭委員昱晴：也許可能再更細部一點，提供資料給我們。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外，在國發會的新聞稿我們看到62%的外國人有意願要歸化我國的國籍，但是依照移民署的統計資料顯示，112年3月到113年4月的最新統計資料，在最後總人數其實只有增加了26人，這是因為申請的條件門檻比較高嗎？既然有62%的人喜歡臺灣，也希望能夠擁有臺灣的國籍，是因為門檻比較高，所以他們比較難申請嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員是說歸化國籍的？"],["郭委員昱晴：對，因為人數增加的並不多。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：OK，我請處長來回應一下。"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員提問。關於這個問題，我們調查的對象，有62%有入籍的意願，可是有意願不代表他們有辦法真的入籍，因為入籍還要符合一定的條件，一般專業人才必須居留滿5年才有入籍的考量。我們目前只有提供高級專業人才可以入籍時免放棄國籍，所以一般專業人才即便有意願，他考量到要放棄國籍，也許就沒有申請了。委員提到的數據是高專的規劃數據。"],["郭委員昱晴：不需要放棄他原本的國籍，然後申請臺灣的國籍，等於他擁有雙重國籍。"],["謝處長佳宜：對，可以允許擁有雙重國籍的是高專人才，高專是依據入出國及移民法的一些規定，需要有特殊的才能、專業技能才能符合這個資格，所以我們一般……"],["郭委員昱晴：申請條件有沒有機會可以再放寬？"],["謝處長佳宜：是，我們也許可以跟移民署再來做一些討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。","接下來我想問，以國發會在112年到114年重點專業人才供需的研究，我們可以看到在教育背景需求中，工程及工程業占比高達50.4%，其次是資訊通訊科技占23.9%，但是在112學年度大學統計招收學門占比中，商業及管理的占比是19.1%，根據教育部招收僑外生的資料，顯示商業及管理的占比反而比工程及工程業的占比17.7%還要再更高。這個情況在供需方面，包含僑外生招生，或者從教育管道吸引外籍人士來到臺灣，是不是在供需方面的分配比較不均勻？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我們現在正全力地進行跨部會的合作，我們希望僑外生招生來台的學系跟國內的人才需求要相吻合，會再逐步調整當中。比如教育部會召開重點產業系所招生，擴大招生的員額會設定在這些5加2的重點產業。教育部有一個國際專修班，也會特別針對我們比較需要的、短缺的人才或人力來進行招生。的確如委員說的，因為現存大學統計的學門跟我們需要的人才之間的確有某些程度的落差。"],["郭委員昱晴：是、是！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：可是我們在全力磨合、縮小這個落差當中。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，最後再給我一點點時間，因為剛剛我還特別質詢了文化部，我們來看一下，外國專業人才從事藝術工作許可，是裡頭比例最低的，可以看到包含表演及藝術的許可率只有不到40%，我們剛剛也特別討論過，文化教育對臺灣來講非常重要。針對這些視覺藝術或是表演類的外國人才，我們是不是可以再給他們什麼樣的幫助，以提高許可證的比例？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：外國專業人才許可證是屬於勞動部就服法的範疇之內，我是不是請勞動部來說明一下，為什麼許可率相對偏低。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒關係，因為時間的關係，會後再給我們一些書面資料。好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是、好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝主席。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。請勞動部在會後提供相關資料給郭委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員不在。","請吳春城、吳春城，吳春城委員不在。","請范雲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.16596875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.41909375000000004,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":21.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.83346875,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.92846875,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.59971875,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.35409375,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.90659375,"end":71.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.57659375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.92346875000001,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.31159375,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.56346875,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.58034375,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.59721875,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.15409375000002,"end":145.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.71409375000002,"end":138.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.55346875,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.84034375000002,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.21909375,"end":152.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.06284375,"end":147.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.76284375,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.52221875,"end":158.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":156.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.28471875,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.94284375,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.78659375,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.96784375000001,"end":161.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.32034375,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.09221875,"end":204.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.45034375,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.90159375000002,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.93534375000002,"end":207.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.84659375,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.08659375000002,"end":211.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.32284375,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.35659375,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.13284375,"end":215.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.13659375,"end":258.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.99909375000004,"end":264.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.90159375,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.82534375,"end":263.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.51284375,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.01346875,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.03721875,"end":284.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.37471875,"end":284.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.79659375,"end":338.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.72909375,"end":345.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.83346875,"end":366.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.89909375,"end":358.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.50534375,"end":368.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.01971875000004,"end":370.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.77471875000003,"end":372.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.73221875,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.21721875000003,"end":374.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.06096875000003,"end":376.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.81596875,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.45596875,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.97034375000004,"end":400.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.73284375000003,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.06971875000005,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.63721875000005,"end":445.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.08784375000005,"end":455.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.21284375000005,"end":463.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.84096875,"end":463.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12:08:41","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":583,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:08:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:58:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時58分）謝謝主席，我邀請主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。2023年8月份，我們看到比特幣及虛擬通貨發展協會主辦了臺灣區塊鏈產業地圖，也作了關鍵報告，當中看到國內超過兩百家區塊鏈企業所從事的業務項目以及企業概況。在這部分，我們看到相關公司中有將近七成是在過去五年就已經成立的，換句話說，有愈來愈多虛擬資產業者會向金管會你們這邊申請洗錢防制聲明。講了這個背景，主要也就是顯示我國的虛擬資產業正在蓬勃發展、有在成長，而且發展的速度似乎比原先我們所預估的速度還要加快，你認同嗎？它的速度是加快的，你認同嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實發展很快。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也認同很快喔！","之前的主委說，在九月份的時候虛擬資產專法要出來，但是我剛剛聽到同仁問你的時候，您是說什麼時候會出來啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛跟委員報告的是，針對虛擬資產專法，我們現在正在專案委託研究案，九月應該是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛剛說的是九月份才有草案出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：九月是那份研究報告作出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：才有研究報告？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼跟上一任主委差距這麼大呢？他是說九月份的時候專法會出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是專法的研究報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你後面再用括號加註了「研究報告」？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那請教你，如果依照你剛剛的回答，九月份才有專法的研究報告，換句話說，專法要等到明年囉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果依照你的腳程，九月專法的研究報告出來，那專法什麼時候才會送出來呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：預計九月研究報告出來之後，我們會緊鑼密鼓，開始進行相關程序。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的「緊鑼密鼓」是指什麼時候會出來呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是剛剛講的，可能最快是明年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年什麼時候呢？你們的預估呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：明年的話，就要看整個立法進程。因為這是全新的法案，所以我們可能要花點時間、要評估一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有KPI出來了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在有沒有？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個這麼重要，我相信不管誰當主委，這件事對目前的臺灣社會都很重要。你剛才也說了腳步要加快，在這樣的情況下，如果拖那麼久怎麼辦呢？民眾怎麼辦呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們收到專案報告以後會儘速處理啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的儘速……本席要請教，你既然做了一件事情、已經是「ing」也就是進行式當中，那絕對有你的預估、你的KPI嘛！主委，依照您剛才說的，我們再重複：九月你們才會有專法的研究報告出來，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那請問，以你的「儘快」，是什麼時候專法會出來？什麼時候專法會出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：明年上半年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年上半年？主委，這個腳步可能要加速。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果能夠快，我們就儘量，因為社會有這個期待。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有信心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：之前講的是九月份專法要出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那現在是五月啊！而你現在又說要到明年上半年，差距將近一年欸！怎麼會差那麼多？速度應該要更快啊！因為目前全世界都在看啊！也都在應對啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：九月的時程應該只是報告啦！確實是。針對這部分，我們明年會……等於如同剛剛跟委員報告的，就是儘快處理，預估大概在明年上半年，因為主要是要整合比較多我們過去比較不熟悉的業態，這部分可能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席之所以願意給你那麼多時間說明，是希望不要讓不正確的訊息讓民眾感到模糊，但也的確有差距啊！如果依照你的規劃，那大概會差一年，所以本席也具體建議，因為目前的社會非常地需要，你們在盡可能的範圍怎麼樣可以縮短時間，主委是不是應該以專案管控？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對於所有案子都會這麼做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是要專案管控？是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們都會這麼做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：時間如果可以，是不是應該誠如你說的儘快？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們再去盤點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：盤點你們的時程，再提供書面資料給本席。","對於你們，我們也很關心的就是先買後付（Buy now, pay later），針對這樣的情況，要讓打擊詐騙不會因為換人而有調整，你有沒有信心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個有，我們會處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛本席在司法委員會也對新任部長講，這個問題愈打愈糟，對於打詐四法，你們終於好不容易送到立法院，那就要儘快排程討論。各個委員、不分藍綠白都希望如此，因為現在民眾很恐慌，包括電話到底要不要聽、簡訊要不要看？哪一個是真的、哪一個是假的？真的不是真的，假的不是假的，假的又是真的，真的又是假的，喔！這真的讓民眾很緊張欸！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有認知到這個問題啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我們都非常重視這個問題，也聯合各相關部會，都定期、密集地討論這些事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：定期、密集？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席給你一個背景：2023年刷卡網購數據中，盜刷達到32.4億，是2022年的1.47倍，也是史上最高。這樣的情況也有喔！占整體盜刷金額的98.3%，這個數字告訴你之後，要怎麼樣去防堵？有人甚至刻意發送釣魚簡訊，透過點擊詐騙卡號，連百貨公司都受害欸！因為被綁在一起。對於這樣的情況─用app綁卡、盜刷，你們有什麼方案？這麼嚴重啊！怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們請銀行局針對銀行盜刷的部分說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：是。報告委員，針對app綁卡盜刷這個問題，主要都是百貨公司或賣場的app啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼應對？"],["莊局長琇媛：這塊的話，現在銀行公會已經在研議了，也是要透過app、也就是這個商店，我們會跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：社會面這麼嚴肅喔！腳步加快好不好？你們跟銀行公會加油好不好？"],["莊局長琇媛：是，現在包括聯卡中心也要參與進來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：數字一直在增加欸！你們又緩不濟急，民眾太可憐了，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：速度要加快，研議方案提供給本席。","我有一個議題給主委。主委，金管會說到了2026年非現金支付交易的筆數要達到80億筆，交易金額要達到10兆，這是我國的目標，有沒有改變？有沒有改變？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，還是按照這樣的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會達到嗎？有沒有信心？"],["莊局長琇媛：我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我告訴你，104年到110年，你們提出的電子化支付比例是五年倍增，到了2023年，非現金支付部分的筆數還要成長50%欸！所以這是迫切需要的，交易金額目標則是6兆。在這樣的情況下，我們看到今年第一季非現金交易的筆數是18.97億筆喔！至於交易金額將近2兆，跟去年同一季相比，增加了24.6%，金額也成長將近15%，光光一季就是如此喔！主委，剛剛局長講的也是要依照這個數字達陣成功是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是，局長？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：交易金額在2026年的目標是10兆，非現金支付部分要達到80億筆，是不是？"],["莊局長琇媛：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有信心？"],["莊局長琇媛：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：市場會協助你、消費者也會協助你，本席講的這個信心就是政府部門的腳步一定要跟上市場的需求，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","因為現在已經12點了，大家在現場可以一邊用餐。但主委可能比較不方便啦！你辛苦一下。大家可以繼續質詢到會議結束。","下一位請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.55346875,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.76846875,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.93284375,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.375343750000003,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.83409375,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.91659375,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.89909375,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.445968750000006,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.77034375,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.31846875,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.267218750000005,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.40596875000001,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.33596875,"end":74.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.54659375,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.43096875,"end":91.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.02909375,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.21784375,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.06971875,"end":105.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.22971875,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.63034375000001,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.81596875000001,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.93784375000001,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.99221875,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.69221875000001,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.01221875,"end":120.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.88971875000001,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.45909375000001,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.46221875,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.79096875000002,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.90471875,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.05534375000002,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.02909375000002,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.21409375000002,"end":159.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.86784375000002,"end":153.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.95534375,"end":161.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.13221875000002,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.00096875,"end":166.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.46909375,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.90659375,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPE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這差距要幾年呢怎麼會差那麼多應該是要速度更快啊因為目前全世界都在看啊都也在應對啊"},{"start":249.861,"end":277.818,"text":"這個9月時程應該是是應該只是報告啦確實對就是剛剛可能這部分我們明年的話我們會等於說我們現在剛剛跟我們報告就是說我們預估在是我們盡快來處理大概明年上半年因為這個主要整合到比較比較多的我們過去比較不熟悉的業態本期之所以願意給你那麼多的時間說明我也希望不正確的訊息也也不要讓讓這個民眾來模糊"},{"start":278.658,"end":296.939,"text":"但是也的確有差距如果依照你的規劃那大概會差一年所以本期也具體建議因為目前的社會非常的需要你們在盡可能的範圍怎麼樣可以去縮短時間所以是不是應該要專案去管控"},{"start":297.912,"end":297.952,"text":"執行局長"},{"start":326.293,"end":341.612,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢要讓打擊詐騙啊不會因為換人而有所調整有沒有信心剛剛本期在司法委員會我也給新任的部長講"},{"start":343.858,"end":357.975,"text":"這個問題越打越糟打詐司法你們終於好不容易送到立法院要盡快排成來討論各個委員不分藍綠白因為現在的民眾很恐慌電話到底要不要聽"},{"start":359.538,"end":376.269,"text":"閱讯要不要看哪一個真的哪一個假的真的不是真的假的不是假的假的又是真的真的又是假的哇這個民眾真的真的是很緊張欸是的你有沒有認知到這個問題啊有我們都非常重視這個問題我們也聯合各相關部會我們都有"},{"start":377.455,"end":398.016,"text":"定期密集的在討論這件事情定期密集本期給你一個背景2023年刷卡網購刷卡達到32.4億2022年是1.47倍史上最高在這樣的情況之下也有喔他這個佔比是佔在倒刷的部分98.3"},{"start":400.137,"end":422.941,"text":"所以這個數字告訴你我們要找他們去防堵有的人甚至可以用釣魚簡訊要去點擊要詐騙這個卡那連百貨公司都受害都綁在一起所以在這樣的情況之下用APP來綁卡盜刷那你們有什麼方案這麼嚴重啊怎麼辦"},{"start":427.864,"end":428.124,"text":"社會面這麼嚴肅喔"},{"start":455.563,"end":462.206,"text":"我們說的2026年非現金支付交易的比要達到80億比交易金額要達到10兆這個是我們的目標有沒有改變?"},{"start":485.596,"end":485.861,"text":"有沒有改變?"},{"start":487.878,"end":515.134,"text":"報告委員還是按照這樣子的目標會達到嗎?有沒有信心?因為我告訴你104年到110年你提出的電子化支付比例是5年倍增2023年非現金的部分它的比數成長50%所以這是迫切需要的交易金額是6兆所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到今年第一季非現金交易的比數18.97"},{"start":517.642,"end":539.109,"text":"一筆喔他交易的金額將近兩兆所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到跟去年同一季的比他是增加了24.6%金額也達到將近要15%光光一季就是如此喔所以主委剛剛局長講的也是依照這個這個數字要達成成功是不是是不是局長"},{"start":547.085,"end":572.35,"text":"是不是?報告委員是交易金額2026年是10兆那麼非先進的部分是81筆是不是?是有沒有信心?有市場會協助你消費者也協助你本期講的這個信心也就是政府部門的腳步一定要跟上市場的需求好不好?是好不好?可以謝謝"},{"start":579.557,"end":582.07,"text":"謝謝楊委員那因為現在已經12點了"}]}},{"id":"152827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d8f485fcbe85fa36c6fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d20177884b307e7568acc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:57:58 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委員你好 我還是想要關心一下那個台灣管事啦 我知道當很多人關心喔 因為我覺得非常不尋常是 這家公司叫蹦世界嘛 如果他會做出這種抄襲的行為啊 代表說他不是一個非常好的公司 所以政府不應該很時常很平凡的跟這家公司來往"},{"start":36.818,"end":51.603,"text":"但是我們看到這家Bone世界公司從2017一七年開始到二零二四年七八年間光是中央機關總預算他就做了大概七千一百八十五萬的表案這表案的金額是非常龐大"},{"start":52.563,"end":76.949,"text":"那跟我們教育文化相關的標案他大概做了兩千兩百五十三萬那我知道部長因為你也是新任啊可能你對這過程也不是太了解但這個事情會鬧得非常大你們去了解一下這個廠商他是為什麼可以這麼頻繁的接到我們政府的標案就是說會抄襲而且會抄襲被抓到還不承認還說謊這麼惡劣的廠商我們政府為什麼一直把標案給他做啊部長"},{"start":81.946,"end":108.979,"text":"這件事情我覺得抄襲很不對但是硬拗更不對然後我希望這件事情給我們很大的警惕我們整個文化部會針對這件事情徹底檢討我覺得事情已經發生了那我希望這件事情給我們帶來重新檢討我們的標案方式還有重新加強我們的SOP機制未來希望不要再發生這樣沒有回答我的問題啦我是問說為什麼你都認為那麼爛的廠商"},{"start":110.64,"end":117.489,"text":"那我們希望你也星光上任三把火嘛那你有沒有去了解一下這麼爛的廠商為什麼他可以做到政府這麼多的表案"},{"start":119.315,"end":140.692,"text":"我要講因為你剛剛提到說這麼爛的廠商這些字眼我也不知道那沒關係就是有做出這樣行為的廠商如果部長你要問他很好的話我也尊重你啦你覺得這麼好的廠商是不是很有抄襲跟硬拗說謊的問題那你覺得為什麼過去我們的文化單位或其他單位那麼喜歡跟他合作"},{"start":141.412,"end":166.344,"text":"這點我真的不知道 要是我自己我不會這樣說我建議您是剛上任可能牽頭換去很多但因為這個事情是國人關注的 不然不會有很多人問你是不是可以去查一下我們已經在查而且會很快這個幾件事情第一個事情要問一下臺文館為什麼在第一時間這個事情發生的時候他是完全採信廠商的說法還在幫廠商說話是為什麼 這過程當中是怎麼查的為什麼完全相信廠商"},{"start":172.572,"end":182.178,"text":"這點應該誰來回答?可以次長回答嗎?因為我真的不知道該怎麼答這個。那不然你覺得咧?我覺得蠻離譜啊。很離譜嗎?那次長你覺得離譜嗎?請次長回答啦。你問我個人我就覺得蠻離譜,但是為什麼我不知道。那次長為什麼?"},{"start":196.475,"end":213.164,"text":"這個案子稍微補充說明一下剛剛委員您有提到說為什麼這個廠商可以一而再再而三的拿到文學館的這個數位導覽的案子不只不只文學館光是中央機關就做了7185萬跟教育文化相關是2253萬台灣館是1259萬"},{"start":217.622,"end":242.891,"text":"因為其他機關是如何得標這個部分我不清楚我沒有辦法代為回答那至少在臺文館所委託他的這7年來我們一直委託他做的是所謂的數位數位導覽的這一塊那數位導覽裡面事實上以前他做的大部分是把我那個這樣因為沒關係那個問題已經過了你只要回答我說你們後來怎麼查的為什麼臺文館第一時間是相信廠商然後幫廠商說謊"},{"start":246.96,"end":270.772,"text":"這個部分為什麼會相信為什麼會相信對因為怎麼查的你把查的過程先跟我講這個標案裡面最主要他會派駐兩個駐典人員在文學館裡面負責整個臉書頁面的小編還有編輯權那因為在負責這個裡面他同時要做一個所謂遊戲式的導覽你不要講這個大家都知道是我問什麼問題我問什麼問題"},{"start":272.253,"end":300.512,"text":"好沒有就是說為什麼你回答啦因為這樣時間又過了啦這兩個注點人員在對你們是怎麼查的為什麼第一時間沒有查清楚就出來幫廠商背書為什麼因為同仁他就是單純的問注點人員說這個圖案是不是你自己做是不是你自己畫的那這個注點人員告訴我們的同仁說這是他跟他所以是原來台灣館在查這個過程是這麼的粗糙"},{"start":301.232,"end":310.906,"text":"就是說他自己抄襲不想承認告訴你們台灣館你們台灣館就完全採用他的說法出來幫他硬拗這個很誇張好不好這個第一個非常誇張就是想要息事寧人就是想要大事化小"},{"start":316.454,"end":335.007,"text":"就想要掩蓋你們做不好的地方第二個我想請教一下有沒有因為這件事情去查一下比如說這個廠商曾經經過的標案或者是說你們文化部狹下其他有關於文創產品可能是廠商自稱原創但是有可能涉及抄襲的有沒有開始著手去查"},{"start":335.427,"end":364.086,"text":"有有查了幾間開始查多少準備要查多少我們現在就至少蹦世界所呃承辦的這7年內還有沒有其他他們所提供的圖案這些圖案是不是原創的有沒有什麼那你們怎麼查會不會又是叫那個小編來問一下說哎是不是超是不是超的哦不是哦不是相信你會這樣查嗎我們就會利用所謂以圖查圖的這個方式哦所以一個出面的所以你們有查的方法嗎但是你們沒有用嗎第一時間就是想要演示嗎這是我們"},{"start":365.567,"end":392.848,"text":"請教一下現在被抄的那個會徒師他已經要跨海提告請問一下到時候如果說有訴訟費用或者是有賠償問題這個錢誰出如果台灣館必須先面對這個中國會師如果還有任何的提告那如果就產生了一些費用我們會轉了跟蹦世界這邊來求償是你們要去跟他求償那如果說他要脫產啊他要用什麼方式規避的話那是不是最後全民買單"},{"start":394.293,"end":408.442,"text":"因為這個部分我們已經正式跟地檢署那邊提告了然後所以這部分廠商如何被限制行為的這個我們就靠司法這邊來我問的問題是說你他現在是跟台灣管球場對不對"},{"start":410.752,"end":434.321,"text":"那如果說他中國會師他也有跟台灣如果台灣管被判說有連帶責任或什麼責任要付賠償的話你現在的做法是要去跟這個廠商求償嗎如果到時候求償不到的話這筆錢誰要出你確定求償到嗎沒有就在法律上怎麼規定那如果現在問的就是如果沒有求償到嘛誰錢誰出嘛確定買單"},{"start":437.595,"end":464.618,"text":"這部分就看行政上面那就是全民買單啊那就是全民買單啊好然後再來我提醒你幾件事啦因為我們去看了一下台灣館這個標案真的很奇怪啦我昨天我們助理特別去調他們檢案報告檢案報告裡面有很多我覺得蠻特別的地方那請你去查一下比如說那個他們檢案報告書裡面列了很多實際上和他們並不是太相關的標案都把它當作是服務的時機"},{"start":466.516,"end":490.828,"text":"主義來講好像有一個叫做什麼文學樂園美國小天地這實際上是在台灣管另外一個標案裡面的一個項目那另外那個標案叫做美國現代主義可是我不知道為什麼你們已經另外起了一個標案然後在這個標案下面的其中一個小活動又要找這個碰世界的人來做協助這個過程來說非常的奇怪啦請你去查一下好不好第二"},{"start":492.145,"end":516.988,"text":"還有齁我們接下來往下看齁剛剛講到那個美國現代主義文學特展開幕及推廣活動規劃執行這是一個標案72萬得標廠商叫開悟空間文創有限公司那總共兩家去投標另外一家沒有得標叫卡福創意設計行銷有限公司然後很奇怪的地方是在於說我們看到文學館在藝文活動平台所列出來"},{"start":518.149,"end":528.32,"text":"他的整個團隊裡面在我們用框框框起來開幕活動的地方他就是由卡福創意設計行銷有限公司來做的"},{"start":529.173,"end":549.868,"text":"卡芙創意設計行銷他之前沒有得到這個標案但是呢他卻做了這個標案的內容那為什麼呢因為這個標案的名稱寫得非常清楚就是這個特展的開幕及推廣活動就是開幕及推廣可是推廣呢就是由得標廠商開幕來做但是"},{"start":550.969,"end":572.569,"text":"開幕開幕就卡福來做那我就非常奇怪這兩個廠商關係到底是什麼是同一家廠商嗎同一個負責人嗎還是他們的工作團隊其實同一個但是為了要在投標的時候不要讓人家覺得是綁標所以這兩家都來投標這非常的奇怪市長你應該不會知道那麼細的案子啦請你去查一下好不好"},{"start":573.67,"end":600.444,"text":"請查一下為什麼會出現這個狀況就是沒有得標的廠商居然可以來做這個案子的其中一個部分這你會不會覺得很奇怪先初步跟委員說明一下的確這個案子我先前並沒有這個細節那剛剛台灣館館長跟我做的說明是台灣館有另外一個標案是對於全年度台灣館會發生的開幕活動還有另外一個標案所以那個開幕活動得標的是卡福創藝術"},{"start":601.184,"end":610.25,"text":"但是你自己看開幕得標廠商標案名稱是什麼美國現代主義文學特產開幕及推廣活動等於你一個開幕兩個標案吶"},{"start":612.799,"end":631.233,"text":"那你怎麼去分?這個預算隨便花的喔?難不成說開幕就交給一個廠商做嗎?那為什麼開幕要找兩個廠商來做?所以這錢這都是民脂民膏,就是納稅人的錢我們要把關,不是這樣亂搞好嗎?好請查清楚,在事後報告給我,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152826","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152826","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d21e05ad342140f9449cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d2017d5cd0d2049eaa7765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:59:10 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Data聯盟的會長，一直推動政府要開放資料，當我變成公職之後，我希望由我先做起，逐步地來，所以我的公開行程會放在上面，甚至有一些利害相關的族群來拜訪我，我也會把討論的主題公布出來，讓大家可以知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。我覺得部長這個概念很好，因為其實我們也會擔心，有一些部長、首長可能會常常私下跟團體或是財團見面，就會造成疑慮，對不對？所以我認為你這樣的精神很好，很值得大家學習。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你覺得你這次的業務報告裡面，有沒有缺少什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：缺少什麼……"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["彭部長啓明：環境部的東西，包括空水廢土污，其實裡面還是有很多我不了解的，但是我會積極去學習。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝你的回答。除了今年的碳費，還有氣候變遷之外，還有一個議題我在你的報告裡面沒有看到，也很重要，我認為非常重要就是塑膠公約，塑膠公約最後一次會議將在11月於南韓召開，最快也有可能在年底實施，請教部長，這麼大這麼重要的公約，而且影響面非常的廣，為何在報告中好像沒有提到？是不小心疏漏，還是刻意疏漏？"],["彭部長啓明：其實現在都是草案，年底11月在韓國釜山開會，應該會有一些具體方案出來，我們也積極地在關注、在因應當中。當然減塑是一件大事情，要改變國人的習慣需要大家一起努力，我也會積極跟同仁來討論這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，我國要因應塑膠公約的國家計畫，有沒有要啟動任何的規劃？還是你只是想要請同仁大概了解一下？因為我自己看起來，這件事情是今年在環保上面很重要的事情。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我可不可以請循環署署長來報告一下？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，是。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：在塑膠公約裡面有一個國家計畫是讓我們各國提出一些計晝來遵循塑膠公約的內容，目前這個國家計晝的草案大綱有出來，我們會依照它的大綱，先把國內的現況做一個盤點，然後再看公約的進度，找各部會一起來研商。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以今年會啟動嘛？除了這個國家計畫之外，最重要的還有資源循環促進法，現在的立法進度，尤其是針對產生廢棄物端的事業體徵收資源循環促進費，這個更是其中的重點，所以我想要請教部長，資源循環促進法何時才會送到立法院來？"],["彭部長啓明：目前還在跟相關的利害團體進行溝通，我會請他們再加速一點點，看今年能不能送出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，因為你剛來，我要提醒你，環境部說要訂立資源循環促進法已經非常久了，但是每次都是停留在說的階段、了解的階段，然而面對今年底這個塑膠公約有可能會具體來實施，最快的話在年底，就算晚一點，我們算明年好了，這樣子更凸顯我們國家對於這件事情的進度落後，部長可不可以宣示，在本會期結束前將草案送到立法院？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為現在我們要進行預告程序跟開會，然後再送到行政院去做審查，我們這邊會儘快。"],["廖委員偉翔：儘快，所以這個會期可以嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為還要到行政院審查，才有辦法送出來，所以時程上面……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你沒有辦法保證這個會期會有？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：對，我們儘快，我們現在下一個目標就是能夠去預告草案，然後送到行政院去審查。"],["廖委員偉翔：希望你可以給一個比較具體的目標，到時候可以給本席，好嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：好。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，環境部在4月29日的時候，預告空氣品質標準的第三條跟第四條，其中有一項非常重要，就是將PM2.5的平均值從15微克要下調為12微克，而環團認為這個新的標準並沒有達到WHO的建議，也就是新指引的年均值是5微克，請教部長，為什麼我們不參照WHO所訂的指引？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們臺灣是四面環海，有很多的海鹽，其實我們的背景值，像花蓮最好的情況也只有到9而已，如果西半部要像東半部一樣的話，整個改變要非常非常的大，所以我們團隊告訴我，這是我們現在可以到達的一個目標。","我們如果要更往前的話，我有特別請他們在模擬當中有各式各樣的選項，因為包含了重大的污染源、排放源或者是汽機車，其實都要很大量地改變，那個是需要跨部會的合作，所以我個人是希望能夠更低，但是我必須考量現在我們能夠到達的目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我可以理解，務實上，5微克是一個比較長遠的目標。但是之前在衛福部、國衛院的研究，證實空污會增加中風死亡率以及PM 2.5跟肺癌、肺阻塞等有關，而美國環保署的研究也顯示，改善空氣品質的成本效益非常地高，可以算是非常划算的投資，以美國為例，90年代提高標準後，每年減少16萬人死亡，甚至在2020年減少了23萬人，所以環團認為即便是新標準，卻也還是現在的殺人標準，請問部長，你同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，因為臺灣本身的背景值就比較高，所以我必須說，我當然是希望能夠越低越好，但是我們在做的時候有一定的難度，這個部分我有特別請我們團隊持續地做各種的情境模擬，看能不能提出一個更好、更有效率的，因為我們過去減了大概30%，那現在要往下減，其實那個成本效益都很高。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，在今天口頭報告的第12頁，標題是「新空氣二部曲」，次標是「持續提升空品、邁向WHO標準願景」，請教部長，WHO新的指引已經是5微克，但是我們的願景12微克還是比5微克高出了兩倍半，是不是很多？而且這個是你們的願景，假設是願景的話，以後我看到願景，是不是代表你做不到就叫做願景？"],["彭部長啓明：其實在臺灣，如果我們在很乾淨的地方，大概都還有6或7微克，所以以臺灣而言，或是我們東亞而言，這種背景值就很高了，要到WHO的標準真的是非常困難的一件事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就是在第12頁，你們的報告裡面有顯示短期是完成空氣品質標準的發布，也就是我們剛剛說的，15微克要降到12微克，但中期113年到116年寫的卻是13微克，117年到120年才可以達到12微克，這讓我們感覺你訂出來一個法規，可是這個中期目標卻達不到，是訂好玩的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實這個部分我有跟我們司長好好地討論過，現在正在進行各種模擬演算，因為我個人是希望能夠更低啦！但是我也必須考量能不能達得到，是不是請我們司長簡要回答一下？"],["廖委員偉翔：對，因為你設立一個標準是12微克，可是你在中期這裡寫的卻是13微克，就代表你根本達不到，那為什麼要這樣設計？"],["張司長順欽：並不是說目前的空氣品質達到了以後，我們來設一個目前的標準，好比說有一個努力的目標12微克，但是並不是4年內就可以達到12微克，4年內我們可以達到13微克，但是要再往下降，其實它的邊際效益付出的成本會更高，所以到2030年的時候可以達到12微克，是這樣的設計方式。至於下一步會達到什麼，那個是後面要再去演算。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我們今天就質詢到這裡，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝廖偉翔委員的發言。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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data聯盟的會長一直推動政府要開放資料那當我變成公職了之後我希望由我先做起逐步的來所以任何人我當然我的公開行程會放在上面甚至有一些厲害相關的族群來拜訪我我也會把討論的主題把它公布出來讓大家可以知道"},{"start":153.858,"end":172.958,"text":"謝謝,我覺得這個部長這個概念很好,因為其實也會擔心像其他的部長有一些部長首長可能會常常時下跟一些團體阿或是財團見面可能就會造成疑慮嘛對不對所以我認為你這樣的精神很好很值得大家的這個學習喔那部長你覺得你這次的業務報告裡面有沒有缺少什麼"},{"start":175.599,"end":192.592,"text":"環境部的東西,空水廢塗屋,其實裡面還是有很多我不瞭解的,但是我會積極的來去學習。好,謝謝,謝謝你回答。部長,今年的碳費啊,還有氣候變遷之外,我想還有一個議題,我在你的報告裡面沒有看到,也很重要,我認為非常重要,就是塑膠公約。"},{"start":194.053,"end":213.832,"text":"而社交公約最後一次會議將在11月於南韓召開而且最快也有可能在年底實施請教部長這麼重要的公約而且影響面非常的廣為何這個報告中好像沒有提到是不小心疏漏還是刻意疏漏"},{"start":216.67,"end":234.703,"text":"報告委員其實現在都是草案那年底在11月在韓國這個釜山開那個會應該會有一些這個具體方案再出來那我們也在積極的關注在因應當中那當然這個檢索是一個大事情那要改變國人的習慣就需要大家一起努力那我也會積極跟我同仁來討論這個事"},{"start":236.204,"end":250.715,"text":"所以部長我國要因應這個塑膠工業的國家計畫有沒有這個要啟動的任何的規劃還是你只是想要請同仁大概瞭解一下因為我自己看起來這件事情是今年很重要的這個環保上面的事情我特別請我們徐萬曙署長來報告一下"},{"start":252.316,"end":275.098,"text":"在塑料公約裡面他有一個國家計畫是讓我們各國提出一些計畫來這個遵循這個塑料公約的內容那目前這個國家計畫的一個草案大綱有出來那我們會依照他的大綱先把我們國內的現況做一個盤點然後再看公約的進度來找各部位一起來演商"},{"start":276.314,"end":298.522,"text":"所以今年會啟動嘛那除了各國家計劃之外其實最重要的還有這個資源循環促進法那現在的立法進度尤其是針對產生廢棄物的生產端失業體徵收這個資源循環促進費也更是其中的重點所以我也想要請教部長這個資源循環促進法何時才會送到立法院來"},{"start":299.242,"end":319.239,"text":"目前他都還進行跟這個相關的厲害團體來進行溝通啦我會請他們能夠再加速一點點看能不能今年能夠送出來部長因為你剛來我要提醒你喔因為這個環境部已經說要訂立這個資源循環促進法已經非常的久了但是每次都是停留在說的階段瞭解的階段"},{"start":320.44,"end":348.007,"text":"然而面對到我們今年底這個塑膠公約有可能具體會要來實施最快的話年底就算晚一點我們算明年好了這樣子可以更凸顯我們國家對於這件事情的進度落後你可不可以宣誓在部長可不可以宣誓在這個本會期結束前可以將草案送到立法院因為現在我們要進行這個預告程序跟開會然後再送到行政院去做審查那我們這邊會盡快"},{"start":349.452,"end":367.338,"text":"緊快,所以這個會期可以嗎?因為還要到行政院審查才有辦法送出來所以你沒有辦法保證這個會期會有對,我們現在下一個目標就是能夠去預告草案然後送到行政院去審查那希望你可以給一個比較具體的目標到時候也可以給本席,好嗎?"},{"start":369.398,"end":381.147,"text":"環境部在我們4月29日的時候預告空氣品質標準的第三條跟第四條其中裡面有一項非常重要的就是將PM2.5的平均值從15毫維克"},{"start":383.248,"end":397.345,"text":"要下調為12維克而環團認為這個新的標準並沒有達到WHO的建議也就是新指引的年均值是5維克請教部長為什麼我們不參照這個WHO的所定的指引"},{"start":398.286,"end":412.542,"text":"其實因為我們台灣我們是四面環海我們很多的海岩所以其實我們的背景值像花蓮也差不多最好的情況也只有到9而已所以我們如果我們西半部呢要能夠像這個東半部一樣的話其實整個的改變要非常非常的大"},{"start":413.343,"end":437.151,"text":"這個是我們的團隊告訴我說現在我們可以到達的一個目標那我們如果要更往前的話那我有特別請他們在模擬當中有各式各樣的選項因為包含了這個重大的污染源、排放源或是汽機車其實都要很大量的改變那個是需要跨部會的合作所以我們是我個人是希望能夠再更低但是我必須考量現在我們能夠到達的一個目標"},{"start":437.831,"end":466.358,"text":"對我可以理解務實上這個五維克是一個比較長遠的目標但是部長之前在我們衛福部國衛院的研究也證實空污會增加這個中風死亡率以及PM2.5跟肺癌跟肺阻塞等有關當然美國環保署的研究也顯示改善空氣品質的這個成本效益非常的高可以算是非常划算的投資以美國為例90年代提高這個標準後每年減少16萬人的死亡"},{"start":466.658,"end":494.617,"text":"甚至在2020年的這個數字還達到了減少了23萬人所以環團是認為即便是新標準卻也還是現在的殺人標準請問部長你同意嗎基本上因為包委員那個臺灣的本身的背景值就比較高啦所以我必須說我當然是希望能夠越低越好但是其實有時候我們在做的時候有一定的難度所以這個部分呢我有特別請我們團隊持續的在各種做各種的情境模擬能不能提出一個更好更有效率的因為我們過去"},{"start":494.957,"end":497.218,"text":"但是我們的願景12維克還是比這5維克高出了兩倍半。"},{"start":517.938,"end":539.504,"text":"是不是很多?而且這是你們的願景那假設是願景的話是不是以後我看到願景可以代表說你做不到就叫做願景?報委員其實在台灣如果我們在很乾淨的地方大概都還有大概6或7維克所以其實要到以台灣而言或是我們東亞而言這種背景值就很高了所以要到真的WHO那真的是非常困難的一件事情"},{"start":540.134,"end":551.581,"text":"因為你們在還有再來就是第12頁的時候你們的報告裡面有顯示短期是完成空氣品質標準的發布也就是我們剛剛說的15維克要降到12維克那中期你寫113年到116年報告卻寫的是13維克那要到117年的這個到120年才可以達到12維克"},{"start":560.606,"end":585.659,"text":"所以這讓我們感覺你訂出來這個你訂出來的一個法規可是你這個中期目標卻達不到是訂好玩的嗎?報告委員其實這個部分我有跟我們的司長好好的討論過現在正在進行各種的這個模擬演算希望能夠找到一個因為我個人是希望能夠更低啦但是我必須考量到能不能達得到所以我們是不是請我們司長快"},{"start":586.079,"end":609.302,"text":"對,因為你設立一個標準是12可是你現在中期這裡寫的卻是13那你就代表你根本達不到那為什麼要這樣設計呢?跟委員報告,我們那個並不是說標準目前的空氣品達到以後我們來設一個目前的標準他們說我們更努力的目標是12但是12呢並不是4年內就可以達到124年內我們現在就可以達到13但是要到再往下降呢"},{"start":609.782,"end":610.423,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝廖偉翔委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d71b5c49f053b29133a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017fae877f5b75d87c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:55:40 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12:02:57","影片長度":"00:07:17","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":437,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T12:02:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:55:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":891,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時56分）謝謝召委，有請高教司的代理司長廖司長。"],["主席：請高教司。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，應該是國際及兩岸教育司，抱歉。"],["廖代理司長高賢：委員早。"],["張委員雅琳：司長早。今天我想要針對的就是關於2030年的雙語政策計畫來跟司長討論，就是說，2020年教育部有提出一個2030年的雙語政策計畫，這也是賴總統非常重要的一個政見，那就是說，我們需要讓這件事情成功，有一個關鍵因素，就是我們的英語師資的人數，根據國立師範大學林子斌教授在2022年針對雙語國家政策的建言，提到了外籍師資具有母語優勢，可作為學習語言的資源之一，但是以雙語教育的本質來說，應該還是以兩種語言同時來學習。我想問一下，引進英語的教學人力資源，像是外籍英語教師，或者是全時的外籍英語教育教學人員，或者是部分工時的教學人員，對於現階段推動2030年雙語政策的目標是什麼呢？"],["廖代理司長高賢：這個部分有分大專以上和高中以下的部分，剛才委員所提到的英語師資，就是英語教學人力中外籍師資的部分，涉及到我們的國教署，是不是請國教署的同仁來回答？"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["林副組長琬琪：委員好。剛才委員詢問到全時外籍英語師資的部分，目前全國高中以下的有857位，部分工時的師資有606位，我們的目標就是希望能夠透過這樣子的一個沉浸式雙語教學，提升我們學生的英語能力。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我們現在其實是用外加員額來引進這些英語師資，來提供你剛剛說的沉浸式教學，所以這樣聽起來，我們應該要非常重視這些英語外籍師資嘛，對不對？"],["廖代理司長高賢：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我們現在其實也訂了一些相關的衡量標準跟目標值，像國中、國小，其實都會有一些我們要求達到的目標，不管是全時或者是部分工時的人數，高中也有，那我想要問的第二個問題就是說，我們2022年其實有設一個目標，2024年有設一個目標，2022年的目標是不是都已經達成了呢？"],["林副組長琬琪：是。"],["張委員雅琳：都是嘛。現在是2024年了，現在看起來，在國中小的部分，不管是全時或是部分工時，都還有一個滿大的差距，今年可以達標嗎？"],["林副組長琬琪：這個部分我們會持續來努力。"],["張委員雅琳：請問一下，現在有什麼樣的困難嗎？因為這個差距以部分工時的部分來說，差得很遠耶。"],["林副組長琬琪：是，跟委員報告，目前呈現的是到112學年度的資料，我們113學年度是從8月開始來計算。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那這個部分有更新的資料了，是嗎？"],["林副組長琬琪：沒有，因為現在還沒有到113學年度的聘任期。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，好。針對這件事情，相關的部分有沒有一些比較具體的計畫呢？可不可以提供到我們辦公室？"],["林副組長琬琪：好，我們會後再提供。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。好，我們就進入一個比較重要的重點，就是現在因為外語師資非常關鍵，可是跟日韓相比，其實我們師資的要求是相對高的，高沒有什麼問題，日本跟南韓大概就是學士就好，臺灣還需要有教師資格，這個我認為沒有問題。但是如果我們今天要求這麼高，就必須提供更具有吸引力的條件，讓大家願意來臺灣做這件事情。","我想請問，我們現在有外國專業人才延攬及僱用計畫，裡面也包括特定專業人員，這個特定專業人員由主管機關來認定，英語外籍教學師資有沒有可能被主管機關認定為特定的專業人才呢？因為這樣可以有更好的就業條件，有就業金卡，工作時限也比較長，這部分是可行的嗎？不然教師一直不停的流動，對學生的學習也不是很好的狀態。教育部的代表可以說明一下嗎？"],["廖代理司長高賢：跟委員報告，高中以下的英語教師原則上屬於協助性質居多，剛才所提到的就業金卡，大部分要滿足一些特定的規定，比如月薪要在16萬元以上、在相關研究機構服務，才發就業金卡。所以當初設定外籍英語協同師資的部分，並沒有納進金卡的範圍。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們剛剛有講，外籍師資是雙語國家政策很重要的關鍵，而我們又有這麼高的標準跟要求，如果沒有更好的計畫，怎麼吸引這些人願意來臺灣做這件事情呢？"],["廖代理司長高賢：謝謝委員，是不是容我們會後再盤整一些相關的資源，在吸引外師方面可以做得更好，容我們在會後提供更詳細的規劃？"],["張委員雅琳：好。我想請問一下，就是雙語國家這部分，跟攬才有關係，國發會副主任今天有來嗎？"],["主席：請國發會高副主任委員。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員雅琳：副主委，抱歉。副主委早安。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：早。"],["張委員雅琳：因為這件事情跟攬才非常有關係，相關的福利條件是不是也可以一起來協助教育部做詳細的規劃，讓這些師資真的可以留在臺灣，好好教育我們的小孩。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：他只要是符合專法的適用對象，我們一定就全力支持。"],["張委員雅琳：好，副主委也有說如果符合條件，會全力支持，我也希望兩方都可以一起來合作啦。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：一定的。"],["張委員雅琳：看有沒有什麼東西我們努力一起來解決，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來請郭昱晴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.207843750000002,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.82721875,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.125968750000006,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.45034375,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":46.049093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.73221875,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.643468750000004,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.75721875,"end":65.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.43846875,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.87284375,"end":73.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.70721875000001,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.48346875,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.67534375000001,"end":95.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.60659375,"end":113.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.88221875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.37721875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.03659375,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.67784375000002,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.97534375,"end":167.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.53221875,"end":191.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.97534375,"end":194.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.32534375,"end":195.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":209.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.73221875000002,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.26659375000003,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.84034375000002,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.76721875,"end":230.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.02846875,"end":232.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.10846875000001,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.77846875,"end":240.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.01471875000001,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.71909375,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.49034375,"end":284.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.89784375,"end":294.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.27596875,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.41784375000003,"end":321.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.10721875,"end":355.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.12721875,"end":371.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.37909375000004,"end":364.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.28096875,"end":382.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.46909375,"end":390.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.12596875,"end":392.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.30284375,"end":394.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.67784375,"end":398.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.75346875,"end":398.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.77034375000005,"end":398.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.80409375000005,"end":398.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.98971875,"end":400.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.44534375,"end":400.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.58846875,"end":416.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.67471875,"end":417.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.78846875000005,"end":422.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.39534375000005,"end":434.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.18721875,"end":432.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.97159375,"end":434.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.35971875,"end":434.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.97971875,"end":437.48159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":1.41,"text":"接下來請張雅琳委員發言。"},{"start":29.269,"end":29.509,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":48.766,"end":71.361,"text":"委員長市長早那我想今天我想要針對就是我關於2030的一個雙語政策的計畫來跟市長做一個討論就是說2020年教育部有提出一個2030年的雙語政策計畫那這也是賴總統非常重要的一個政見那就是說我們需要讓這件事情成功有一個關鍵因素就是我們的英語師資的人數"},{"start":74.564,"end":91.696,"text":"那根據國立師範大學林子斌教授在2022年他有針對雙語國家政策的一個建言提到了外籍師資具有母語優勢可作為學習語言的資源之一所以但是以雙語教育的本質來說應該還是以兩種語言同時來學習"},{"start":96.636,"end":113.315,"text":"那我想問一下就是說引進英語的教學人力資源像是外籍的英語教師啦或是全時的外籍英語教學人員或是部分工時的教學人員對於現階段來推動2013年的雙語政策的目標是什麼呢?"},{"start":115.893,"end":132.669,"text":"請。我們這一個部分因為有分大專以上跟高中以下的一個部分那剛才委員所提到的這個英語師資就是英語教學人力的這個外籍師資的一個部分是涉及到我們國教署就是的部分是不是我們請國教署的同仁?"},{"start":133.652,"end":151.534,"text":"委員好,那剛才委員詢問到就是全時的這個外籍英語師資的部分,目前全國有在高中以下有857位,那部分工時的師資有606位,那我們這目標就是希望能夠透過這樣子的一個沉浸式的雙語教學,然後提升我們"},{"start":152.134,"end":152.335,"text":"﹑張雅琳"},{"start":169.546,"end":191.296,"text":"我們現在也訂了一些相關的一些衡量的標準跟目標值,就是像國中、國小其實都會有一些我們要求達到,不管是全時或是公時的人數,高中也有。我想要問的第二個問題就是說,我們現在目前針對於現在我們2022年其實有設一個目標,2024年有設一個目標,我們2022年是不是都已經達成了呢?"},{"start":194.426,"end":194.446,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":220.862,"end":223.144,"text":"關於這個相關有沒有一些比較具體的計畫呢?可不可以提供到我們辦公室?"},{"start":238.834,"end":238.854,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":258.575,"end":272.329,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":273.519,"end":294.35,"text":"那我想問一下就是說我們現在是有一個外國專業人才延攬及僱用的一個計畫那這裡面其實是也有特定專業的人員那這個特定專業的人員呢其實是由主管機關來認定的那我們這個主管機關的認定上面是不是有可能把它"},{"start":296.011,"end":321.369,"text":"因為來認定這個英語的外籍教學師資他有沒有可能認定在這個特定的專業人才呢?因為他可以有更好的一個這個就業的一個條件就是說他有這個就業的金卡那他的持線也比較長這部分是有可行的嗎?不然這樣子一直不停的教師流動其實對學生的學習也不是一個很好的狀態所以教育部的代表可以幫我們說明一下嗎?"},{"start":322.445,"end":342.807,"text":"各位委員報告這些高中以下的這些英語的那個教師原則上他是屬於協助性質的居多那剛才所提到的這些就業金卡大部分是他要滿足一定特定的一些規定比如說他要16萬以上或者是在我們的那個所謂的那個相關的研究機構來服務"},{"start":344.168,"end":352.044,"text":"才發這個所謂的就業金卡的部分。所以當初在設定這個所謂的外籍英語師資協同師資的部分並沒有納進來這個金卡的範圍。"},{"start":356.309,"end":381.251,"text":"對,但是我們剛剛前面其實有講嘛,因為外籍師資是我們今天雙語國家一個很重要的東西,而我今天用這麼高的一個標準跟要求,那我如果我今天沒有更好的計畫,怎麼吸引這些人願意來台灣做這件事情呢?謝謝委員,那是不是容我們在會後再盤整一些相關的資源的提供,在吸引外資上面能夠做得更好,是不是容我們在會後提供更詳細的規劃?"},{"start":382.793,"end":383.774,"text":"副主任不好意思喔"},{"start":397.451,"end":415.903,"text":"國發會副主委。副主委,抱歉。副主委,好,副主委。副主委早安,就是說因為這件事情跟我們的攬財是非常有關係的,那我們這些相關的福利條件是不是也可以一起來協助我們的教育部來做這些詳細的規劃,讓我們的教育,這些師資啦,真的可以留在台灣來好好的。"},{"start":416.744,"end":416.924,"text":"張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"152823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d0bd4ef7f5a04d41c88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d2017d538382fbf97c6c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:44:37 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11:58:51","影片長度":"00:14:14","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":854,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:58:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:44:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時44分）謝謝主席，我請金管會鄭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["王委員世堅：抱歉、抱歉。"],["主席：他是說正職的啦！"],["王委員世堅：抱歉、抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，是彭主委、彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：王委員，你好。"],["王委員世堅：沒想到我們第一次碰面，我就把你的姓氏稱呼錯誤。","主委，其實我對你是滿有信心的，也滿了解的啦！我去看了你過去的一些著作還有你的主張，而我覺得你這些主張……比方說談到壽險業的狀況，你用了一個很好的形容，你說他們就如廬山煙雨啦！他們的複雜跟他們的多變就像廬山煙雨。而且你當時還批評過金管會，說他們圖利壽險業這些財團，因為他們發放了高股利，反而降低了壽險業的淨值──我覺得你那樣講是滿正確的喔！不能為了圖利壽險業的老闆們而綁架保戶的權益，當時你這麼說。當然，你現在上來這個位子了，可能會做一些修正，會比較實際地去了解。不過不管如何修正，我認為站在金管會的立場，本來就要嚴守這個看管的立場。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：我就提比較傷腦筋的，今天跟你談兩件，一個就是租賃，也就是這些融資公司。我先前曾問你們，而且也要求金管會，針對融資公司是不是要有融資公司管理法？結果上禮拜、你上任前，金管會已經答復我說，現行規範對於融資公司已經有管理機制，所以他們拒絕定租賃專法就對啦！主委，我認為這個答復就是四個字：「胡說八道」！哪來的管理機制？沒有啊！金管會這個答復等於睜眼說瞎話。金管會明知道現在對融資公司的管理是推給經濟部，但主委你知道嗎？經濟部是依公司法管理這些融資公司，而公司法管理全國140萬家公司！","我就講租賃業中最大的這三家好了：中租迪和、和潤、裕融，三家都上市啦！而且三家的經濟總規模占所有融資公司的比例超過95%。我姑且稱這三家公司叫薯條三兄弟啦！薯條三兄弟的惡劣，我想你應該時有所聞，那管理他們是對的啊！結果現在你轄下的金管會卻做這樣的答復。然後，在你今天的報告裡，你說現在針對這些融資公司、包括薯條三兄弟的BNPL─你只寫到BNPL─要加強管理，但是，彭主委，BNPL不是重點！為什麼？BNPL在薯條三兄弟6,800億年營業額裡面的占比連5%都不到！4.6%而已。最主要的是另外那95%，BNPL的總營業金額280億只佔4.6%，所以這個不是重點，另外那95%才是重點。但另外那95%就如我講的，都推給經濟部啦！","現在我就舉例，有民眾權益受損、被薯條三兄弟剝削了，這樣的糾紛誰來協商呢？竟然是經濟部！而經濟部對於協商也推得滿乾淨的，表面上來協商，卻說經濟部的協商是針對自然人，對於法人，他們是不協商的。所以，這很荒唐。如果你查一下薯條三兄弟，如同我剛剛講的，在他們的放款額度裡面，法人融資金額最大、占比超過一半，金額超過3,560億！個人的呢？2,800億。所以經濟部一推，就超過一半他統統不管！而其他由他管的，也是管得一蹋糊塗。我是說債務協商的部分喔！此時此刻，融資放款這樣的金融公司本來就該由金管會來管，不是嗎？畢竟你下面有銀行局、下面有檢查局、有這麼多重要的專業金融人才可以管理！","我再講下去。這兩、三個月，我一直問銀行局，到底包含九大行庫跟這些民營銀行在內，銀行業總計放款了多少金額給薯條三兄弟？欸！你們來個拒絕答復！你們說，根據銀行法第四十六條，這個問題你們不能答復。結果─彭主委，我在問你們的同時，另外私下到個別公股行庫去問，我連民營行庫都去問，現在查出了總金額，光是公股行庫放款給薯條三兄弟的總金額就有4,854億，而且你們還給予另外額度，總額是8,921億欸！他們沒有全拿滿啦！拿了大概五成五。然後，他們的借款利息是多少？1.748%。1.74%的利率！","主委，你認為這有道理嗎？銀行業貸款給有房子擔保的新青安貸款，利率是1.77%，這已經算低的。軍公教信用貸款─也是有房屋抵押的喔！利率是2.53%！咦？貸款給薯條三兄弟的利率比這兩大政府重要政策要優惠的方向還要低！好，你借給他們1.7%，結果他們轉手借給需要的民眾，借18%！這樣對嗎？如果銀行體系，尤其公營行庫，有這四、五千億的資金借給薯條三兄弟，那這些金額乾脆直接借給需要的民眾就好啊！幹嘛借給租賃公司呢？不是這樣嗎？","租賃公司對於借款需求大眾們，吸他們的血，收他們的高利貸、高違約金、高手續費，吸他們的血欸！這是多可惡的事情！結果金管會一推四五六，統統不管，連問個金額都不能問，很奇怪欸！我覺得光是基於這一點，就應該好好整頓銀行局。這個局長是誰？你好好查一下啦！既然你上來了，你可以重新任命嘛！就是站在你後面那位嗎？啊！抱歉，我不知道他有來。","主委，你看著辦。這等於變相地對薯條三兄弟……我用四個字形容，銀行局是變相地助紂為虐！不是嗎？你們默許銀行─尤其是公營行庫、九大公營行庫放5,000億的放款給薯條三兄弟，讓他們為惡，不是這樣嗎？","抱歉，主席，我再簡單問，因為是新主委，我再多用個兩分鐘，跟他講一下ETF的問題。你們有稍微注意到ETF，這點很好，但是對於ETF，我認為首先要糾正的是關於他們的名稱啦！他們在名稱上都自稱「高股息」、「高獲利」、「高收益」，甚至把「臺灣價值」加進去、把巴菲特這些名人都拿來當成他們的廣告用語。最主要的是他們現在竟然還大剌剌地透過主流的電視新聞播這些廣告、假借新聞來欺騙，用新聞報導的方式說靠ETF月賺20萬、秒進帳六位數，還買新聞報導聲稱買ETF大賺，說沒有工作、但一個月有11萬8,000元的股息。還特地說沒工作喔！那是為什麼？因為他買了ETF：00919。買00929的也不錯，每次配息，股息以0.13元計算，每個月可以領19萬5,000元！這些訊息公開、大剌剌地在主流電視媒體以新聞報導方式傳達，主委，你認為這些是不是該管？現在的管理只憑這些投信投顧公會、由他們公會自律，這種自律一點效果都沒有！自律完全沒有罰則。連你罰它，它都可能不怕了，更何況沒有罰則？不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有罰則。"],["王委員世堅：沒有罰則，那就是說一說、用勸導的就對啦？道德勸說就對了？天啊！","主委，你簡單答復一下好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，他們的自律規範有罰則啦！至於有關融資公司的部分，有些地方我們會再跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：啊？這麼短？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為時間不夠。"],["王委員世堅：我們主席同意、多給了兩分鐘欸！"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛提到網紅還有ETF名稱的部分，我們會注意啦！再來就是有關剛剛提到融資公司的一些訊息內容，我們再向委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：這跟我看到你過去的著作、你的一些言論……當然你那時候是對壽險業講的啦！但奇怪，鬆緊度怎麼差這麼多？我希望你能夠用同一個標準。你對壽險業的看法很好，但請你先移轉你這個關注力以及你的專業─先移轉到融資公司、薯條三兄弟，跟這些投信投顧他們所發行的ETF，可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我會關注，謝謝委員。"],["主席：王委員，時間到。沒關係啦！新來的，稍微輕鬆一下。","下一位發言請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.75159375,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.629093750000001,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.67534375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.35409375,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.25221875,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.74471875,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.12784375,"end":28.465343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.08534375,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.75596875,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.46034375,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.69534375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.99034375,"end":47.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.10784375,"end":48.79971875000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主委你知道嗎經濟部是依公司法管這一些融資公司公司法管理全國140萬家公司"},{"start":204.312,"end":212.999,"text":"我就講租賃最大的這三家好了中租敵額、合潤、育融三家都上市啦三家經濟的總規模佔了所有融資公司超過95%我姑且稱這三家叫鼠條三兄弟啦齁"},{"start":226.977,"end":243.448,"text":"數條三兄弟的二列我相信你應該是有所聞那麼我們來管理他是對的啊結果你現在轄下的金管會他做這樣的答覆然後在你今天的報告你說這個報告你說啊這個現在要來針對這些融資公司"},{"start":250.732,"end":257.577,"text":"鼠條三兄弟BMPL你只寫掉BMPL要來加強管理但是彭主委BMPL不是重點為什麼BMPL在鼠條三兄弟年營額裡面6800億裡面占連5%都不到4.6%而已最主要的是他另外那95%占"},{"start":281.479,"end":288.143,"text":"他的總營業金額281億4.6%這個不是重點另外那95%才是重點而另外那些95%就我講的啊都推給經濟部啦現在我就舉這個我們民眾"},{"start":305.185,"end":328.928,"text":"全力受損啦!被屬條三兄弟剝削啦!那麼這樣子的糾紛誰來協商呢?竟然是經濟部那經濟部他的協商他也是推得蠻乾淨的他表面上來協商但是他說啊我"},{"start":331.448,"end":335.151,"text":"經濟部的協商是對自然人那對於法人啊他們他們是不協商的所以這很荒唐如果你去查一下這個薯條三兄弟他們的放款的我剛講的額度裡面"},{"start":358.936,"end":365.903,"text":"法人融資占金額占最大占超過一半3560億個人的2800億然後經濟部一推欸 超過一半的貪汪他不管其他他管的也是管得一塌糊塗"},{"start":379.721,"end":395.634,"text":"我是說債務協商的部分喔所以此時此刻本來融資放款這樣的金融公司本來就該我們金管會來管不是嗎你下面有銀行局你下面有檢察局你有這麼多的重要的這些專業金融人才可以來管理然後"},{"start":407.642,"end":425.41,"text":"我再講一下說結果這兩三個月來我一直問銀行局說你們到底啊我們九大公民銀行戶跟這些民營銀行總計我們銀行業到底放款了多少金額給鼠條山兄弟"},{"start":426.909,"end":445.4,"text":"你們來個拒絕答覆你們說啊這個根據銀行法第46條這個你們不能答覆結果彭主委我在問你們的同時我另外私下個別公股行庫去問我連民營行庫都去問我現在查出了總經理光公股行庫啊"},{"start":453.137,"end":470.421,"text":"放款給屬遼山兄弟總金額4854億而且你們還另外額度總額是8921億欸他沒有錢拿滿啊他拿了大概5成路然後他的借款率是多少1.7481.74的利率"},{"start":482.352,"end":506.889,"text":"那個主委你認為這有道理嗎我們銀行業貸款給有房子擔保的喔新青安貸款1.77這已經算低了然後軍公教信用貸款也是房屋有抵押的喔2.53貸款給鼠條山兄弟的逼"},{"start":514.098,"end":521.302,"text":"這兩大政府重要政策要優惠的方向還要踢還要你借給他1.7%結果他轉手借給需要的民眾他借18%這對嗎?如果我們銀行體系尤其供應行庫"},{"start":537.335,"end":561.131,"text":"有這四五千億的資金來借給薯條三兄弟那乾脆這些金額直接借給需要的民眾就好啦幹嘛這個注定公司呢?不是這樣嗎?注定公司吸我們借款需求大眾們吸他們的血收他們的高利貸、高額約金、高手續費"},{"start":567.748,"end":568.749,"text":"就在你後面那一位嗎?"},{"start":596.394,"end":597.775,"text":"啊抱歉我不知道他有那個主委你看著辦那麼這等於變相的對"},{"start":610.495,"end":628.68,"text":"鼠條三兄弟我用四個字形容銀行局變相的助纣為虐不是嗎你們默許銀行尤其是公營航庫九大公營航庫放五千億的放款給鼠條三兄弟讓他們去為惡不是這樣嗎那另外"},{"start":637.967,"end":663.756,"text":"抱歉喔主席我再簡單因為新主委這個齁我再多個兩分鐘我跟他講一下說ETF你們有稍微注意到ETF這個很好但是這個ETF齁我認為首先要糾正的就是關於他們的名稱啦他們名稱都自稱喔"},{"start":665.416,"end":681.332,"text":"高股息、高獲利、高收益甚至把臺灣價值加進去把巴菲特這些名人都拿來當他們廣告的用語最主要他們現在竟然還大剌剌的透過"},{"start":683.208,"end":710.313,"text":"主流的電視新聞播這些廣告這些假借新聞來欺騙用新聞報導新聞的報導的方式說靠ETF月賺20萬說秒進帳六位數然後買這個新聞報導ETF是買ETF大賺說啊沒有工作但是一個月有11萬8千元的股息"},{"start":711.36,"end":740.214,"text":"沒工作喔還特定說那這個為什麼說他買了ETF00919買00929的也不錯每次配息啊股息0.13元算每個月可領195,000元這公開大大大的債我們主流電視媒體以新聞報導的方式所以我認為主委你認為這些是不是該管現在的管理只憑他們"},{"start":742.239,"end":759.002,"text":"這些投信投顧工會他們工會去自律這個自律一點效果都沒有自律完全沒有罰則你罰他他都可能不怕了更何況沒有罰則不是嗎沒有罰則那說一說用勸導的就對了道德勸說就對天啊所以那個"},{"start":767.99,"end":779.89,"text":"是不是主委你簡單答覆一下好嗎報告委員剛剛的是他們治理規範是有罰則啦剛剛就是有關融資公司的部分有些地方我們再跟那個委員再報告謝謝"},{"start":782.168,"end":783.649,"text":"王世堅"},{"start":803.664,"end":825.73,"text":"這跟我看到你過去的著作你的一些言論當然你那時候是對壽險講的啦怎麼奇怪這個鬆緊度差這麼多齁我希望你能夠同一個標準很好你對壽險業的看法很好請你先移轉你這個關注力以及你的專業那麼先移轉到"},{"start":828.442,"end":840.49,"text":"董事公司、鼠條三兄弟跟這些投信投股他們所發行的ETF可不可以...會來關注,謝謝,謝謝委員謝謝王委員,時間到沒關係啦,那個新來的要謹慎一點謝謝現在的訪問是楊瓊英、楊委員"}]}},{"id":"152822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9df444ae109a9d512b6fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017020e7f4b4ca561565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:46:38 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11:57:54","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":676,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:57:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:46:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時46分）謝謝林宜瑾召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長，辛苦了，歡迎你來立法院。因為今天是第一次質詢，所以要告訴您，您可能也知道了，本席是您的讀者、觀影者，包含蛹之生、試管蜘蛛，還有小畢的故事等，不管是您投入的文學創作或者後來的影像，我們都受惠良多，就連新電影，我們也是跟著一起成長，所以很高興你擔任這個職位。","剛剛已經有很多人問了很多問題，本席今天有三題，對您來說應該不會很難，第一個，本席想問和步道相關的事情，因為那天很高興看到您參加千里步道協會的步道師頒獎典禮，因為你很關心這方面的事，所以直接問您一些他們的重要訴求。第二個是想問兩廳院票務的相關改革，最後想問您怎麼看待文化政策裡面的性別主流化。部長，您也是千里步道協會的發起人，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是，對，18年前。"],["范委員雲：18年前？謝謝部長，在您還沒有擔任部長之前就致力於這件事。這和我們的自然景觀有關，主要是對手作步道技術的保存投入心力，本席那天有看到您，因為我們都有去參加今年他們的榮譽步道師頒獎。您應該非常了解，他們做了4年，民間用自己的力量，保存手作步道自然工法和古道，貢獻真的很大。","您現在成為部長，不知道是否能夠加速這個工作？就是千里步道協會倡議應該修正文資法的施行細則，把手作步道視為一種工藝和技術，納入無形文化資產的範圍。本席也幫部長整理了條文，其實這個部分只要文化部自己修，立法院就是備查而已。","在傳統知識和實踐的範圍內，就是本席框起來的部分，在漁獵、農林牧後面加上「築路（手作步道）」就可以了，如同其他的航海、曆法及相關祭祀等，都可以讓國家一起參與，積極保存手作步道的修復技藝，不要只用民間的力量在推廣千里步道。部長是否可以承諾儘速研議修正這個施行細則？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。因為這個部分和我個人過去做了18年的千里步道有直接關係，其實千里步道本身就涵蓋了文化。"],["范委員雲：的確。"],["李部長遠：還有剛才提到的手作，這次我參加頒獎典禮非常感動，他們頒獎給三種人，第一個是個人，一個客家人，第二個是一組人在澎湖修石滬，第三個是一組原住民，他們把步道當作一個祭典。"],["范委員雲：對，連儀式都被肯定。"],["李部長遠：對，基本上這是有形和無形的文化財。其實千里步道想傳達的不只是健康、走路而已，它想傳達的是用步道連結臺灣歷史和遺失的記憶。所以對於您的建議，我當然很希望它能夠實現，而且以這個項目來說，很多步道本來就是有歷史的古道，所以文資局本來就應該一起做。"],["范委員雲：好，那就請部長儘速推動這個施行細則的研議、修正，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是，好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：本席待會會再問您，大概多久可以給我們一份書面報告，這是第一題。第二題就像本席剛才說的，不知道部長有沒有注意到，去年12月兩廳院有牡丹亭的售票爭議，網路上有非常多兩廳院會員和藝文愛好者的關心和批評。部長，您知道這件事嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不知道耶！"],["范委員雲：不知道？沒有關係。因為牡丹亭是一個非常重要的表演，白先勇先生一直致力於推動，這當然是好事，可是兩廳院的會員在票一開賣的時候，就發現核心的位置全部都沒有辦法買，這就涉及兩廳院和包團機制之間的衝突。其實本席後來有努力幫忙召開座談會，因為本席覺得這對文化部的形象不好，而且這屬於公眾利益，所以2月的時候有召開座談會，當時次長也有出席。大家是有充分的討論，都知道這裡面有觀眾的購票權益，團體也有售票需求和商業利益如何平衡的問題。","所以當天有討論到，其實應該修正兩廳院的票務管理規範，文化部回復這個部分預計5月開董事會的時候才能確定。因為5月底還沒到嘛！所以本席先預告一下，部長是不是可以了解相關進度並幫忙追蹤？兩廳院是這麼重要的藝文場館，文化部等於是指導單位，它在售票方面的公共性和公開透明，可以因此獲得更好的提升。"],["李部長遠：我完全贊成。你剛才提到牡丹亭，我一下子沒有反應過來，可是你剛才提到賣票時，突然有一整區買不到，這件事我倒是知道。"],["范委員雲：對，因為在網路上有滿多爭議。"],["李部長遠：針對這件事情，我上任之前還找過高志尚董事長，向他請教。"],["范委員雲：對，高董事長是兩廳院的董事長。"],["李部長遠：因為我身邊很多朋友都是做戲劇的，他們賣票時也會有這樣的狀況，為什麼會一整區包場？還是為了他們的票務嘛！就是整個包給別人。"],["范委員雲：對，我們知道他們有財務的考慮。"],["李部長遠：對。這個問題其實滿嚴重的，我們會在他們的董事會提出這個問題，立刻解決。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。在開座談會的時候，我們也討論過很多細節，希望5月底能夠有結論。因為不斷有網友問，本席說要關心，怎麼沒有結果？其實是因為結果還沒有出來，我們也沒辦法幫你們宣布，希望5月底的時候能夠順利解決，也可以公開，讓大家知道文化部和兩廳院的態度，當然還是以兩廳院為主，就是他們對這個部分的相關改革，請部長繼續關心。","最後一題，剩下的時間不多，這個問題的範圍比較大一點。本席想說的是，我們有看到部長的施政理念報告，從文化永續、世界臺灣的願景，到分成四個領域，生活、思想、創造和傳播的文化，本席就想到性別主流化這件事，因為從世界臺灣的角度來看，臺灣這幾年被世界看到一個很重要的價值，不只是民主，而是性別平權。","本席也很高興看到，文化部剛才說到，在巴黎奧運的時候，你們的臺灣館有邀請最近非常紅的美國魯保羅變裝皇后秀冠軍妮妃雅去那裡表演，本席覺得文化部這個主動出擊非常好，讓世界看到。因為他不只是在性別文化上代表我們引領前進，他對臺灣文化的傳統服裝創新也有很深的投入，包括設計等各方面。所以本席也想問部長，在您的報告中，本席比較看不到性別的部分，部長會不會提出具性別觀點的文化政策呢？"],["李部長遠：我個人非常贊成，臺灣除了自由民主之外，在性別方面也走得很前面，包括同性婚姻，還有剛才說的變裝皇后，我覺得它都屬於人權的一部分，我們尊重每一個個體。未來我想在許多地方上，包括請評審也好，辦活動也好，我們會考慮性平這個部分，我在報告上沒有寫，但是我個人會很重視這個部分。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長承諾會關注這一塊，從評審到各方面。本席也幫部長整理了，在您上任之前，根據你們的相關資料和我們索資的內容，文化部主管的員工，女性其實達一半以上，但是獎補助獎項審查的女性委員剛好只有三分之一。將近50%的基金會董監事，任一性別比例都沒有達三分之一，因為三分之一是目前合理的標準。有47.5%的基金會董監事一直沒有達到三分之一，所以這部分真的還有提升的空間。","也向部長報告一下，如果我們和歐盟比較，其實歐盟已經設下2026年女性代表比例要達四成，從公私的委員會委員、基金會董監事到文化領域都適用，當然，歐盟是採性別高標。可是也要向大家報告，臺灣國會的女性立委比，例如宜瑾委員和本席，我們的國會女性立委平均數高於歐盟，也就是我們在政治方面的女性參與是高於歐盟的平均數。但是文化這個部分看起來差異還是滿大的，文化從業者的女性比例已經快要50%，但他們沒有在leadership領導的位置被提拔，這部分也請部長關切。","您的性別主流化方案是不是也可以設定一個目標？我們沒有要求馬上達到，但希望能夠逐步達到，當成是您施政理念的一個性別主流化，好不好？性別主流化就是您的生活、傳播等各領域裡面，都要能看到性別，就像你們這次漂亮出擊，邀請妮妃雅到巴黎奧運的文化館表演。好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：針對剛才這三題，部長多久之內可以給我們辦公室一份書面報告？看您的時間好了。"],["李部長遠：這分屬不同部門吧？"],["范委員雲：對。一個月，是不是？"],["李部長遠：一個月可以嗎？"],["范委員雲：好，一個月，請部長關切。謝謝部長，一起加油。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你。"],["主席：好，謝謝范雲委員，部長請回。接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.19034375,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.26159375,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.54909375000001,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.27471875,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.15221875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.56784375,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.47596875000002,"end":203.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.15846875000003,"end":216.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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一整區這樣子包場還是為了他的那個票務嘛"},{"start":394.714,"end":400.017,"text":"對我知道他有票物的那個財務的考慮這個問題其實蠻嚴重我想我們會馬上找出一個在他們董事會中提出來這個問題立刻解決好那謝謝因為座談會的時候我們也討論過很多細節那希望5月底能夠"},{"start":412.142,"end":414.985,"text":"希望能夠在5月底的時候順利解決然後可以公開讓大家知道就文化部跟兩廳院之間當然是以兩廳院為主他們對這個部分的相關的改革"},{"start":430.858,"end":453.012,"text":"那些請部長繼續關心最後一題時間不多比較大一點那我想我講的事情是我看到部長的施政理念的報告那從文化永續世界台灣的這個願景到分成四個領域生活思想創造跟傳播的文化那我就想到就是性別主流化這個事"},{"start":453.672,"end":479.52,"text":"因為其實從世界台灣的角度台灣這幾年被世界看到了有一個很重要的價值不只是民主而是性別平權那我也很高興看到就是文化部剛講到巴黎奧運的時候你們的台灣館有邀請我們最近非常紅的盧寶羅的美國變裝皇后秀的尼菲亞能夠去那裡表演我覺得文化部這個主動出席非常的好"},{"start":480.46,"end":504.068,"text":"讓世界看到因為他不只是在性別文化上代表我們一個引領前進他對台灣的文化的傳統服裝到創新的部分也投入很深在設計上各方面那我也想問部長是說那可是在您的報告中我比較看不到性別那部長會不會有什麼具性別觀點的文化政策呢"},{"start":505.805,"end":533.187,"text":"我個人非常贊成臺灣除了自由民主之外是在性別方面走的很前面包括同性婚姻還有剛才講變裝皇后我覺得它都屬於人權的一部分我們就尊重每一個個體未來我想在許多地方上包括我們請評審也好辦什麼活動也好我們會考慮性平這個部分我在報告上沒有寫但是我個人會很重視這個"},{"start":534.909,"end":563.728,"text":"謝謝部長承諾會關注這一塊從評審到各方面我也幫部長整理了您要來之前我根據你們的相關的資料跟我們的所知文化部主管跟員工女性其實達一半以上但是獎補助獎項審查的女性委員只有剛好到三分之一然後有快要到50%的基金會董監事被管控的時候任一性別比例都沒有達三分之一"},{"start":564.488,"end":582.635,"text":"所以是說因為三分之一是我們的就是一個目前的合理的標準那有47.5%的基金會董事都一直還沒有達三分之一所以這還是真的滿有需要提升的空間也跟部長報告一下"},{"start":583.195,"end":607.752,"text":"我們如果跟歐盟來看的話歐盟其實已經設下2026年女性代表比例要達4成那從公司的委員會就是說董監事到文化領域都適用那當然歐盟我想是一個性平高標可是也要跟大家報告我們台灣國會的女性立委比譬如移警委員跟我就是我們是平均高於歐盟的國會"},{"start":609.173,"end":609.193,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":625.894,"end":654.182,"text":"所以這部分也請部長關鍵您的性別主流化的方案是不是也可以設定一個目標看您我們沒有要說馬上達到能夠逐步達到當成是您的施政理念裡面的一個性別主流化好不好性別主流化就是說您的生活傳播各領域裡面都要能看到性別那就像你們這次漂亮初級邀請林菲亞到巴黎奧運的文化館表演好不好"},{"start":655.963,"end":660.725,"text":"拜託這三題部長可以在多久內給我們辦公室一個書面報告呢?看您的時間好了"}]}},{"id":"152821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d38a7835526147b493a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:49:00 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11:48:19","影片長度":"00:06:09","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":369,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:48:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:42:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時42分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。今天22日，其實您才上任兩天，所以等一下我質詢的題目如果在您業務還來不及去理解的部分，可以讓陪同出席的這些司長或處長們來做回應。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：其實我比較關注的當然就是有關於碳中和這個議題，今天大家關注的也都是這個部分，說碳中和容易，但是事實上它不是只有在環境部，比如說我現在注意到有很多的商品因為相關的碳中和名詞出現之後，它也變成是一個可以販售的宣傳嗎？包括便利商店，或者是一些食用品當中都會說我有碳中和，有碳中和感覺上不只是宣傳，好像我在購買的時候也為環保盡了一分力，但是這樣的過程當中，到底企業是不是真的做到碳中和？到底有沒有辦法做揭露？這個部分如果是產品、是商品，它的主管機關是環境部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實對於這件事情，現在我們氣候署有一個碳中和的標準，我們會建議朝那個標準來進行，有些企業的確會用這樣的方式來宣揚它的淨零理念，這樣當然是很好，但是也要嚴防避免漂綠。"],["林委員楚茵：其實我擔心的是，如果它願意負起企業的社會責任ESG來做到碳中和，那是最好的，但是就擔心它變成一個宣傳的噱頭。","我們來看，現在指引到底什麼時候會上路，大家一定都在問，但是我更想問的是，今天環境部所擬定的企業宣告碳中和指引，如果企業要揭露，那揭露在哪裡？是金管會過去一直都有要求，有關於ESG的報告當中嗎？那麼它的策略是什麼？行動是什麼？未來是要改成碳中和也要做一個揭露報告書嗎？在這個揭露報告書當中，等不等同於剛剛我所詢問的，許多商品、產品揭露了它碳中和，有畫上等號嗎？如果虛偽不實，主管機關到底是環境部，還是經濟部，或者是其他的部會？如果是食品，會不會是衛福部？其實我想問的是，我現在問的這些問題有沒有跨部會的討論或是不是已經有一個方向？對於所謂的漂綠，在漂綠的過程當中，如果今天林楚茵發現它出現在企業當中，那我到底是去找環境部，還是去找經濟部？又或者是食品，我要找衛福部？"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實都是跨部會的，對於這樣的一個指引，包含我現在已經有跟金管會主委在討論，例如說我們未來的綠色金融，這是賴總統的政見，其實我們在綠色金融裡面也要有一些指引，包含反漂綠的原則，現在國際上大概已經有這樣一個標的物來處理了，所以我們大概會遵照國際上這種反漂綠的原則來進行。"],["林委員楚茵：所以我們用的是歐盟的標準，還是用什麼樣的一個國際標準？我們知道現在有兩套標準嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，目前這個部分，是不是請署長來說明？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告……"],["林委員楚茵：您是？"],["彭部長啓明：氣候署署長。"],["蔡署長玲儀：我是氣候變遷署。"],["林委員楚茵：氣候署署長，署長好。"],["蔡署長玲儀：現在國際間在做碳中和都是自願性，現在我們也跟金管會還有相關的部會準備要開始對國內這些自願性的工作來做規範，根據金管會日前釋出的訊息，它會先針對金融業；至於環境部，我們會針對企業的部分，如果它要去參照國際，譬如說ISO 14068的方式來宣告碳中和，那我們會規範，希望它藉由我們一定的程序來進行。"],["林委員楚茵：所以會像金管會所要求的公發公司，在他們的報告上面做揭露嗎？如果是公發公司願意自發性來處理的話。"],["蔡署長玲儀：這個就必須要跨部會來討論。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我會問到這一題是因為我手上有拿到金融機構防漂綠參考指引，這個是由金管會來擬訂，但是我就想要詢問了，金融機構它在防漂綠的時候，我們對於這些投融資的個案來做一些指引的宣導，但是這樣的標準跟標的有沒有跟環境部做商討？到底是真綠還是假綠，由誰來判定？尤其是金融機構裡面，有人可以判定這是真綠還是假綠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實這個部分，我跟金管會彭主委有討論過這個議題，我們兩個會來做這件事情。"],["林委員楚茵：好，什麼時候？有約了嗎？有沒有期程？我什麼時候可以拿到更進一步的資料跟指引的方向？因為這份指引我看過了，其實都是概念性，我覺得如果是這個概念，我必須講，金融機構也是眼睛閉著，覺得這個投資出去，錢借出去、融資出去可以回收，就回收了。"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們都有約好，但是因為我們今天都是第一次在立法院，所以等到我們稍微……"],["林委員楚茵：要多少時間？"],["彭部長啓明：我大概一、兩個月內會找他來開會。"],["林委員楚茵：兩個月內，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：然後你們有更細部的指引之後，我希望我能夠了解，能夠收到相關的資訊，除了給本席辦公室之外，也給我們衛環委員會的委員，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的發言。","下一位請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請我們彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":11.598,"end":35.304,"text":"林委員好部長好今天22號其實才上了兩天所以等一下如果我質詢的題目如果在您業務還來不及去理解的部分可以讓您的一起陪同出席的這些司長或處長們來做回應謝謝委員好我們知道其實我比較關注的當然就是有關於碳中和這個議題我想今天大家關注的也都是這個部分但說碳中和容易但是事實上"},{"start":36.464,"end":61.782,"text":"呃他不是只有在環境部比如說像我現在注意到是很多的商品因為我們的這相關的碳中和名詞出現之後他也變成是一個可以販售的宣傳嗎包括便利商店啦或者是一些食用品當中都會說啊我有碳中和有碳中和感覺上好像不只是宣傳而且好像我在購買的時候我為綠"},{"start":64.583,"end":77.869,"text":"對環保好像盡了一分力但是這樣的過程當中到底是不是真的企業做到碳中和到底有沒有辦法做揭露那這個部分如果是產品是商品它的主管機關是環境部嗎"},{"start":79.502,"end":96.307,"text":"報告員其實這件事情就是現在我們氣候署有一個碳中和的一個標準那我們會建議朝那個標準來進行所以有些企業他的確會用這樣方式來宣揚他的這個淨零的這個理念當然是很好但是也要嚴防避免票率"},{"start":96.707,"end":115.11,"text":"好,其實我擔心的就是說,如果他問易賦取企業的社會責任ESG來做到碳中和那是最好的但是就擔心他變成一個宣傳的噱頭我們來看吼,我們現在指引到底什麼社會上路大家一定都在問但是我更想問的是,如果今天"},{"start":116.151,"end":142.612,"text":"環境部他所擬定的企業宣告碳中和的這個指引如果企業要揭露我想問的就是那揭露在哪裡是金管會過去一直都有要求有關於ESG的報告當中嗎那麼他的策略是什麼行動是什麼那麼是未來要改成是碳中和也要做一個揭露報告書嗎那在這個揭露報告書當中等不同同於剛剛上面我所詢問的就是許多的商品產品"},{"start":144.841,"end":150.25,"text":"他揭露了他探綜合有畫上等號嗎那如果虛位不實"},{"start":151.755,"end":177.295,"text":"主管機關到底是環境部還是也許是經濟部或者是其他的部會如果是食品會不會是會服部其實我想問的是我現在問的這些問題有沒有跨部會的討論或是不是已經有一個方向就是所謂的票率而這個票率的過程當中如果我今天林楚茵發現了他是出現在"},{"start":178.015,"end":199.91,"text":"企業當中那我到底是去找環境部還是我去找經濟部又或者是商品我要找衛福食品我要找衛福部部長報告委員這個其實都是跨部會的那對關於這樣的一個指引呢其實我們我包含我現在已經有跟今晚會主委在討論其實我們必須未來要有一些例如說綠色金融這是賴總統的這個政見"},{"start":201.371,"end":204.814,"text":"所以我們用的是歐盟的標準呢?還是用什麼樣的一個國際上面的標準?你知道現在有兩套的標準嗎?對目前這個部分是不是請我們署長"},{"start":230.836,"end":247.591,"text":"國際間在做碳中和都是自願性那現在我們也跟金管會還有相關的部會準備要開始來對國內這些自願性的工作來做規範那金管會他們日前釋出來的訊息他會先針對金融業那環境部的部分我們會針對企業的部分"},{"start":249.492,"end":251.754,"text":"所以會像金管會所要求的公發公司在他們的報告上面做揭露嗎?還是?"},{"start":268.462,"end":284.397,"text":"如果是公發公司願意自發性的來處理的話是根本報告這個就必須要跨部會來討論好因為我會問到這一題就是我手上拿到的就是金融機構房票率的一些指引那麼這個是由金管會來做擬定但是我就想要詢問了"},{"start":285.518,"end":308.308,"text":"那麼金融機構他在降房票率的時候我相信就是來做投融資的時候的這些融資的個案我們來做一些指引的宣導但是這樣的標準跟標的有沒有跟環境部做商討而且到底是真率還是假率那誰來判定尤其是金融機構裡面有人可以判定這是真率還是假率嗎"},{"start":309.408,"end":329.437,"text":"報告委員,其實這個部分我跟金管會彭朱惠有討論過這個議題。兩個會來做這個事情。好,什麼時候?有約了嗎?有沒有期程?我什麼時候可以拿到更進一步的資料跟指引的方向?因為其實這份指引我看過了,但是其實都是概念性。我覺得如果是這個概念,我必須講金融機構"},{"start":330.538,"end":332.16,"text":"報告委員,因為我們都有約好啦,但是因為我們都是第一次今天在立法院,所以等到我們稍微一點點上線到,我再一兩個月內會找他來開會。"},{"start":351.42,"end":351.68,"text":"謝謝林楚茵委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d7e390e96ac47a9d249cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20174889e893383af6ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:35:49 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我想盡快是政治用語啦。六月叫科學用語啦。對不對?那明確嘛。對不對?那每個人都想盡快。我也相信薛部長也想盡快啊。啊快了沒有?就跳票了嘛。對不對?那沒有關係新部長上來齁,我覺得你也...不過說真的,環境部還是有延續性啦。所以因此"},{"start":239.288,"end":253.962,"text":"這個部分我希望說能夠把時程能夠跟大家明確化可是另外一個更嚴重了我們宣布長離職前還直接曾經有說過不排除將延後徵收納入考量我們本來攤費是預計什麼時候徵收2024年有辦法做到2024年剩多久半年請問做得到嗎"},{"start":266.562,"end":289.566,"text":"可不可以請我們主席來回答?主席委員好因為我們當初2024年打算要開徵那因為就是一些法制作業需要完備那我們收費辦法的草案裡面有提到說如果在開徵的第一年這個碳費是比較費率是比較晚出爐的時候對嘛所以問題來了嘛為什麼一直問你費率?懂了吧?部長為什麼一直問你費率?"},{"start":293.567,"end":310.744,"text":"你費率都沒出來你怎麼跟我講徵收啊對不對費率出來你還要一部分的準備時程吧那我就問嘛這樣部長放寬一點今年底費率出不出的來呃我是對我們費率誒6月我講到今年因為明年24就要開徵了捏"},{"start":313.16,"end":331.137,"text":"你在12月31號費率出來你1月1號趕開徵也來不及啊可我問你啊12月底有沒有辦法費率出來呃基本上我相信以他們速度是出來沒有問題但是我報告委員好謝謝齁你相信齁你相信以他們速度出來沒有問題對不對那你對開徵明年有什麼信心"},{"start":331.597,"end":347.857,"text":"基本上報告委員那個開針還有很多技術上的細節所以我也鼓勵他們說我們也可以用影子探定價的方式來進行部長真的因為你剛上任所以基本上我覺得還是要給你一點時間謝謝但是我想時程不能掌握"},{"start":348.557,"end":348.737,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員的訪問"}]}},{"id":"152818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dc085c380027394323a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017c8222ff8187d84f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:40:50 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後那預定會有多少人取得這個資格那也有多少人可以投入這個社工師的工作我們是提供這樣的一個機會給這個擁有證照的人那目前已經有三十幾位具有這個資格"},{"start":169.48,"end":185.657,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":187.83,"end":206.629,"text":"貴府部是社公司金王檢任市長社公司那我想請教就是說我剛剛有提到就是說你們有徵詢這個勞動部跟這個社工社工團體的這個建議那你們自己本身有"},{"start":207.31,"end":207.57,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":228.243,"end":244.39,"text":"那對於未來會投入多少我們目前是沒有做相關的評估那因為這是在保障他們依法依照社會工作司法取得的社工師證照那我們當然要保障他在實務上能夠執業所以才經過徵詢勞動部以及社會工作專業團體的意見以後做成這樣的政策建議建議勞動部來把這個納維"},{"start":255.898,"end":283.574,"text":"韓國人可以在臺灣執行這個專業性工作的開放的項目。好,那我想請教就是我們知道說社工的這個工作真的非常的辛苦啦。那當然就是說這個勞動部或者是社工團體的這些建議那最主要我們也希望就是說衛福部應該針對我們社工人員他們所提出來的目前的這個工作環境還有待遇"},{"start":283.814,"end":301.357,"text":" 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書記官也沒那麼大膽啦"},{"start":260.024,"end":285.152,"text":"跟委員報告有一些案件不單純是調查局的同仁在處理有的時候是有多個單位一起來偵辦那當然但是就調查局而言我們絕對要求同仁遵守偵查不公開而且如果有發現有同仁違反的話我們一定是嚴懲可是你們就懲不出來啊我們常常看到媒體披露的部分就是筆錄你那個都是已經是偵查當中你連那筆錄都已經都照處理了你不覺得這好奇怪嗎"},{"start":289.783,"end":314.246,"text":"跟委員報告並沒有有筆錄外洩的情況那個筆錄筆錄流出去那是當事人刻意去偷拍那這個部分我們也贊助當事人的責任我們有這個來報請移送給地檢署來偵辦這個都要弄得很清楚啦阿不然這個對司法來講的話人家會質疑你說唉唷你們刻意這變成好像是打擊政敵"},{"start":315.427,"end":339.348,"text":"政治攻防到彼此都可以講但是涉及到民間企業我那個就麻煩了那有時候影響到整個企業之間的一個競爭這個我覺得新部長上來這個要特別小心了這個這個次長你也很清楚啊我們這個討論的多久了好不好那局長請回那我必須要接下來要請教那次長也先請回啊"},{"start":340.646,"end":365.518,"text":"我必須要來請教部長的就是說國人對於政府的一個政策尤其是我們法務部有包有扁那其中在打詐這個部分國人不滿意的你應該很清楚這個部分國人真的是不滿意一直以來也都有很大的一個雜音都認為我們法務部檢警機關做得不夠要繼續去做努力小英政府"},{"start":366.358,"end":392.408,"text":"最後的半年裡面我非常清楚行政院提出這個打詐的一個專法那法務部也成立了工作小組同時在今年2月召開了三次的一個工作小組的一個會議邀請懲詐相關的機關去開會那這個部分我也非常清楚但是我要先就教部長就是說你現在對於這個打詐的態度跟法務部未來整體的政策的一個走向"},{"start":393.179,"end":397.597,"text":"會不會去延續陳建仁院長或者說我們蔡前部長的這樣一個方向"},{"start":399.176,"end":427.512,"text":"目前打詐現在是打起詐欺車的行動是1.5版那從1.0到1.5現在是要進入到2.0版那我想這個重點重點我們是這個打詐的一些的量我想是一直在累積中那我想這三期最重要就是在整個打詐的司法能夠立法通過讓我們這些在法制面可以給我們那個"},{"start":428.972,"end":449.163,"text":"檢察官跟司法警察有更多的偵查的手段以及嚇阻整個一個詐團詐欺者的這些的犯罪的一個動機那另外我想這個我們在各方面因為打在1005版也是四個面向去做處理"},{"start":450.223,"end":450.343,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":466.907,"end":469.93,"text":"國人其實他的要求就很簡單有沒有辦法去遏止但是我覺得遏止不容易人們都要這麼討論趨利"},{"start":490.047,"end":517.357,"text":"要責派幾人太多了啦刑法你去把他弄得很重的話在本席看來都未必有用反而是怎麼樣去加強快速的去破案來達到遏止的一個效用那事實上你在打造司法當中科技偵查跟保障法是4年前法務部就已經預告過的草案那些草案其實有爭議你也很非常清楚那過去最大的爭議就是說不符合法官審理同意後檢方或者司法警察機關"},{"start":518.778,"end":540.612,"text":"這個有院方必須要去做最後的一個裁決的過去的版本裡面你像比如說我們司法警察跟檢察官可以針對非隱私空間包括陽台還有庭院這些人或物必要時可以使用科技設備監看拍照甚至於錄音錄影跟案件無關的人你也可以去涵蓋去調查不需要向法院申請許可"},{"start":543.049,"end":560.388,"text":"這個齁 有時候齁 這有時候要真的開信尾啊 人權的基本保障還要特別去小心啊你像比如說 你就用空拍機去累計超過30天才可以 才報請檢察官核准 累計超過兩個月才需向法院申請許可 這些爭議點"},{"start":563.672,"end":577.52,"text":"提出以後後來都有改善我們也都清楚了但是像在公共空間裡面檢警在收證的時候只能連續20小時或者共計兩天超過的話這個部分就是保留給法院"},{"start":578.16,"end":600.317,"text":"那你這個M化車還有手機通訊監察部分那當然現在都是法院嘛 都是法院嘛本席認為法務部的查案其實已經有很大的一個改善了所以我想請教部長說這四個已經送到立法院的打詐專法裡面你認為有沒有需要再修正的地方還是會用法務部現在你現行的版本"},{"start":602.902,"end":629.676,"text":"打炸事法這一點行政院都已經審查通過了那近期應該會送到立法院來審議了那我們想這個版本我們這已經經過多方的一個討論廣大意見已經形成了那剛才委員有提到就是有關於人權有疑慮這部分我們拿掉像木馬城市那邊都拿掉了那我想這部分應該應該已經大家廣大意見也共識了那這部分是不是可以做"},{"start":630.536,"end":655.621,"text":"請那個立法院要多支持司法法制委員會本來是最冷門的委員會但這一屆全部都是明星來這裡亂的也有灰的也有很多我告訴你很簡單誠懇很務實我相信不管各黨各派大家到最後都還是可以除了少數以外大家都會把你們倒上庭嘛你是國家的門面"},{"start":656.874,"end":658.615,"text":"本期上個禮在針對上週排審的接避者保護法裡面我也提出一些疑問"},{"start":677.665,"end":700.019,"text":"在去詢問了整個法務部那在第10屆法務部跟行政院都有邀集各民間還有去討論那從整個接避者法務法裡面你看他的立法的一個嚴格早從101年聯政署那個時候開始立法研究到105年小英政府上來也開了很多的一個會議"},{"start":700.879,"end":723.747,"text":"到了108年行政院通過了這個階幣者保護法草案並送到立法院那是因為借期不連續的但是我想請問的就是說目前對於階幣者保護啊政府的整體的政策到底是怎麼樣是不是延續先前的公部門先行私部門的部分是行政指導的部分的方向去做"},{"start":732.558,"end":744.142,"text":"公部門公部門這部分的確是沒有比較沒有爭議比較有共識的老小有共識的部分先做先做那四部門因為我們國內的企業有大中小企業尤其我們中小企業高達98"},{"start":746.223,"end":746.884,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":763.9,"end":764.66,"text":"最後也鼓勵我們的政部長未來你要面臨的狀況"},{"start":787.765,"end":789.006,"text":"謝謝莊委員 謝謝曾部長接下來有請"}]}},{"id":"152816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dd197c54b888794146fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017929d091a91415b875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:33:55 - 11:46:33","影片長度":"00:12:38","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:46:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:33:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時34分）好，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["吳委員春城：部長好，恭喜你，也為文化部恭喜。因為小野是一個真正的文化人，重點不在於歷練有再多，因為文化是一種靈魂，一個民主的靈魂，一個時代的靈魂。我覺得我們這幾年有點偏差了，偏差了這一點，只有技術沒有靈魂。我希望一個真正的文化人，真正的一個懂得文化的人來接任部長。部長，你剛才一開場第一個質詢的時候看你有點緊張，不過我也一樣，我第一天當立委也很緊張。但是我看你這樣子一路下來，你的神情就越來越穩定，所以我覺得你對於要走的路非常有把握。","我自己也是拿了4A廣告獎，廣告節的終身成就獎，所以我想我應該也算是一個文化人，希望未來能夠跟部長有更深入的對話，不只是浮光掠影談表面的東西。部長知道我在談壯世代，為什麼談壯世代？因為我是研究趨勢的，往前30年臺灣最重要的一件事情就叫民主化，民主化走了30年，現在還在吵民主化，我覺得有點落伍了。現在往後看30年，部長覺得最重要的事情是什麼？還是民主化嗎？因為這很重要喔！你要知道我們國家往哪裡走。"],["李部長遠：未來30年完全不能夠倒退回去，因為一個國家的制度會影響這個國家的文化，只有用制度來使大家在這個制度下繼續往前，往前走、往下生活。"],["吳委員春城：對，制度化很重要。我剛剛講的就是從趨勢來講，臺灣未來30年最重要的是人口學的問題，高齡化跟少子化。","剛才那一頁沒有講，回到前面那一頁，這個新聞是民國44年，有兩個女生在西門町逛街就被請到警察局，那犯了什麼罪？叫妨害風化，穿這樣就妨害風化。這個問題是什麼樣的問題呢？我想說文化的問題，之前的部長說文化不等於文化部，部長認同這句話嗎？文化不等同文化部。"],["李部長遠：當然，當然。"],["吳委員春城：當然不是嗎？"],["李部長遠：因為部是一個機構，文化是……"],["吳委員春城：部是一個機構，但是文化是不是文化部的責任？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員春城：是文化部的責任，沒有問題嘛！所以是廣泛的這樣子的一個文化，應該是要作為文化部致力的目標嘛！而不是太衙門化，衙門化就變成辦公，大家辦公對很多事情就覺得與我無關嘛！是嗎？那不然這件事情是誰的責任？誰來改善這些問題呢？好，就是這一個，我簡單講，我發現1970年代的時候，1970年的時候臺灣年齡中位數是19.3歲，2040年是52.4歲，落差非常大。1970年65歲以上占人口2.9%，2040年是30.1%。那年齡在14歲以下，1970年是39.7%，2040年是10.2%。","部長看的這是國發會的資料，這不是我編的。所以呢？就是翻天覆地的改變。我大概來立法院來已經破百日了，我發現我們政府所有的部會都停留在1970年代的思維在制定政策，那我要看看文化部是不是也這樣子。所有的部會都在歧視高齡者，我們幾乎90%的預算都在衛福部，其他的部會只要超過60歲叫做蜻蜓點水，而且那一個小小的部分也是配合衛福部。所以我剛才講為什麼60+以後何去何從？基本上是被我們政府放棄的一群人，我不曉得有沒有被文化部放棄，所有的部會，這個我在今天沒有時間談，每一個部會我都溝通過了。","我們等一下來談今天的重點，基本上60歲以上，現在臺灣超過60歲有600萬人，這600萬人「沐沐泅」啦！我們的政府大概都是為60歲以前的社會來打拼，繁華的世界，一旦過60歲以後，我等一下要問一下文化部為60歲做了什麼事？基本上就是一片荒漠，沒有橋、沒有路、沒有水、沒有電，自己走過去、自生自滅、自求多福，等到你倒下來以後給你長照，這個基本上是我們現在的現況描述。現在有600萬人，而且未來這些人會超過人口的一半，到2050年這邊會占人口的一半，已經在眼前的，我們的政府都完全視而不見。為什麼會視而不見呢？我問了每一個部會，他說也不是我故意的，比如說勞動部定中高齡，那中高齡幾歲？他說45歲。我說45歲會不會「傷譀」？出國念書回來都40歲，工作幾年就準備輔導待退。他說對喔，但是這個不是我規定的啊！是上面規定的。後來我問陳建仁院長，他說也不是他規定的。那後來是什麼？後來大家歸出的原因就是文化，這就是我們的文化。那文化部又說這不是我們的事，那這是誰的事？神仙的事喔？","我們看文化部，文化部做了什麼？去年的預算，高齡預算只有3,500萬，僅占文化部預算的0.2%。但是這不是你的責任，因為你剛來，你看以前對高齡者有多麼的忽略，多麼的忽略！所以希望你來了以後因為你知道，因為他們覺得老人就「無效」，老人就是養身、養病、養老就好了啦！基本上都是這種觀念，但是這邊是占人口一半，希望你能夠覺悟到這個問題。","接下來，大概你到書局看的只要高齡的都是這些書籍，但是你看到好萊塢都已經發現，現在電影的主流都是給壯世代看的，所以你看最近這幾年都有很多的懷舊跟復古片，創造了阿湯哥從影來的最高票房。這裡有大商機啦！我們在座的文策院的蔡董事長有看到嘛！對不對？要往這裡啦！不是全部都年輕人，這邊倒了，年輕人也沒有未來了啦！","所以這個高齡美學，我們有一個叫壯世代，有一個叫壯Style、壯風格，希望文化部能夠創造壯Style、壯風格的高齡美學。因為明年就進入超高齡社會了，這是文化部的重中之重，我們要把銀髮族翻轉成為壯世代，這個有很多完全不一樣，對銀髮族來講他就是養身、養病、養老，但是對我們來講他有美好的第三人生，會帶來對整個社會非常全面性的影響。","我們用大數據可以看到，如果你輸入的是銀髮高齡，長出來的那個大數據雲圖大概就是這些數據，如果你輸入壯世代是這樣子，兩者完全不同，但是卻是同一批人。你有沒有去挖掘這些人事實上叫做戰後嬰兒潮，戰後嬰兒潮全部進入60歲了。這一批人所構成的，包括部長你也是戰後嬰兒潮，四年級生都是在這個世代裡面，這一群人跟過去的你爸媽、阿公那個時代的老人是完全不一樣的，所以包括你現在其實還是部長對不對？追求美好，帶給社會積極的貢獻。為什麼大家都沒有在做？我是來自廣告界，廣告界不會做60歲以上的廣告，只會有那種顧眼睛、顧筋骨，然後大概就這些廣告而已，其他全部不會做，為什麼？因為沒有這些數據，我們基本上把60歲以後當作準備把他放在儲藏室，準備報銷的一群人。這群人未來會占人口的一半，準備把他報銷，然後剛才我也聽到部長講到一句很重要的東西，你講到韓國的電影，韓國電影的商業模式很好，但是在文化內容上面的話，臺灣還是優勢領先。這些內容在哪裡？內容大部分在壯世代。臺灣從農業社會到現在的元宇宙社會，都是壯世代一手開創出來的。這麼豐富的文化，我們文化部有沒有看到？我也跟部長說了我在立法院成立了壯世代政策及產業發展促進會，63個跨黨派的立委加入還有200位學者，已經成為現在立法院最大的次團，這個是不分黨派大家共同支持的。文化部在這裡扮演了重中之重的角色，因為你是真正懂的，而不是在這裡雕蟲小技、舞文弄墨。","另外，最後本席要提醒一下，這是最近發生的事情，本席先向部長告個狀。最近本席有質詢文學館，因為今年是龍年，臺灣文學館的吉祥物叫阿龍，總之後來發現是抄襲大陸的吃瓜龍，被檢舉之後，臺灣文學館還出來捍衛，說大陸抄襲臺灣。本席發文質詢之後，當天他們才讓廠商道歉，你看，果然立委必須在後面跟著才會動，所以今天我在這裡向部長告狀。","本席不曉得文化部底下有多少這類的事情，你剛上任，你應該要清查一下，如果文化人心術不正，我們的文化怎麼會好呢？像這家廠商8年得標七千多萬元，當然，本席不是針對這一家，也不認識他們，本席只是說文化部應該全面性的清理門戶，希望部長加油。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你的指教。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝吳春城委員。接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.61596875,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.62346875,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.610343750000002,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.91784375,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.04846875,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.149093750000002,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.942218750000002,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.570343750000003,"end":33.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.034093750000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你要知道我們國家往哪裡走"},{"start":138.428,"end":139.829,"text":"臺灣未來30年最重要的是人口血的問題高齡化跟少子化"},{"start":169.215,"end":182,"text":"剛才這一頁往前這一個新聞是民國44年有兩個女生在西門町逛街就被請到警察局那犯了什麼罪"},{"start":183.359,"end":184.4,"text":"文化部等同文化部"},{"start":207.444,"end":226.569,"text":"當然當然當然不是不是一個機構不是一個機構但是是不是文化是不是是文化部的責任是是文化部的責任沒有問題所以是廣泛的這樣子的一個文化應該是要作為文化部致力的目標而不是太衙門化"},{"start":229.91,"end":247.502,"text":"雅文化就變成辦公嘛大家辦公他很多事情就覺得與我無關嘛是嗎那不然這事情是誰的責任誰來改善這些問題呢好就是這一個我簡單講我發現這一個1970年代的時候1970年的時候台灣的運營中位數是19.3歲2040年是52.4歲落差非常大"},{"start":258.11,"end":268.018,"text":"1970年65歲上占人口2.9%2040年是30.1%那年齡的14歲以下1970年是39.72040年是10.2部長看了這是國發會的資料這不是我編的所以呢各位就是翻天覆地的改變"},{"start":285.552,"end":297.943,"text":"我發現我們政府所有的部會都停留在1970年代的思維在制定政策那我要看看文化部是不是也這樣子所有的部會部都在歧視高齡者"},{"start":299.244,"end":324.645,"text":"我們幾乎90%的預算都在衛福部其他的部會只要超過60歲叫做清廷點水而且那一部分小小的部分也是配合衛福部所以我剛才講為什麼60加以後何去何從基本上是被我們政府放棄的一群人我不曉得有沒有被文化部放棄所有的部會這個我在今天沒有時間談每一個部會我都溝通過了"},{"start":326.026,"end":331.449,"text":"我們來等一下今天的重點基本上60歲以上現在台灣超過60歲有600萬人這600萬人我們的政府大概都是為60歲以前的社會來打拼一旦過60歲以後"},{"start":344.198,"end":370.204,"text":"我要等一下問一下文化部委員會做了什麼事基本上就是一片荒漠沒有橋沒有路沒有水沒有電自己走過去自生自滅自求多福等到你倒下來以後給你長照這個基本上是我們現在的現況描述但現在有600萬人而且未來這些人會超過人口的一半到2050年這邊會佔人口的一半"},{"start":374.017,"end":395.283,"text":"已經在眼前的我們的政府都完全視而不見為什麼會視而不見呢我問了每一個部會他說也不是我故意的比如說勞動部定是中高齡說那中高齡幾歲他說45歲我說45歲會不會太寒嘛出國念書回來都40歲工作幾年就準備輔導待退"},{"start":397.56,"end":422.039,"text":"那說欸對齁但是這個不是我規定的阿他上面規定的後來問到我問到了陳建仁院長他說也不是他規定的那後來是什麼後來大家歸注的原因就是文化這就是我們的文化那文化部又說這不是我們的事那這是誰的事神仙的事齁我們看文化部文化部做什麼去年的預算高齡預算"},{"start":423.57,"end":427.973,"text":"吳春城吳春城吳春城吳春城吳春城吳春城吳春城吳春城"},{"start":437.591,"end":437.771,"text":"接下來﹗"},{"start":454.776,"end":477.125,"text":"大概你到書局看的只要高零的都是這些書籍啦好接下來但是你看到好萊塢都已經發現現在的電影的主流都交給壯世代看的所以呢你看最近這幾年都很多的懷舊跟父妹創造了阿湯哥衝映來的最高就是最高的那個的票房"},{"start":478.685,"end":506.358,"text":"這裡有大商機啦我們在座吳春城的蔡董事長有看到嘛對不對要往這裡啦不是全部都年輕人這邊倒了年輕人也沒有未來的啦好接下來所以呢這一個高齡美學我們有一個叫壯世代有一個叫壯時代壯風格希望文化部能夠創造壯時代壯風格高齡美學因為明年就進入超高齡社會了"},{"start":507.898,"end":525.323,"text":"這文化部重中之重。我們要把引法族翻傳成為壯世代。那這個有很多完全不一樣。對引法族來講他就是養生養病養老。但是對我們來講他有美好的第三人生。會帶來對整個社會非常全面性的影響。"},{"start":526.903,"end":549.38,"text":"我們用大數據可以看到如果你輸入的是銀髮高齡大概長出來的那個大數據銀土大概就是這些數據如果你輸入的壯世代是這樣子完全不同但是同一批人你有沒有去挖掘這些人事實上就叫做戰後嬰兒草戰後嬰兒草全部進入60歲了這一批人所構成包括部長你也是戰後嬰兒草"},{"start":550.681,"end":553.443,"text":"為什麼大家都沒有在做,連我來自廣告界,廣告界不會做60歲以上的廣告"},{"start":574.793,"end":594.227,"text":"只會那種啊,夠白酒啦,夠滾滾啦,然後大概就這些廣告而已其他全部不會做,為什麼?因為沒有這一些數據我們基本上把60歲以後當作準備把它放在儲藏室準備報銷的一群人這一群人未來會佔人口一半"},{"start":595.41,"end":595.49,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":608.393,"end":608.473,"text":"接下來"},{"start":632.403,"end":660.643,"text":"我也跟部長告了我在立法院成立了壯士在政策及產業發展促進會63個立委跨黨派的立委加入200個位學者已經成為現在立法院最大的次團這個是不分黨派大家共同支持的所以希望文化部在這裡扮演的重中之重的角色那所以對因為你是真正懂的這一個懂的這一個而不是我們在這個雕塚小技武文弄墨"},{"start":662.384,"end":672.969,"text":"另外最後一個我要提醒一下最近發生的事情因為部長在來我先跟你告一個狀最近那個文創館我去質詢他因為今年龍聯龍聯台灣的這一個"},{"start":677.199,"end":702.267,"text":"做了這個創作品叫做叫做什麼阿龍啊吉祥物阿龍齁很總之後來抄襲了人家大陸的吃吃瓜龍然後然後呢被被這個檢舉之後台灣管還出來捍衛指我們是大陸抄襲台灣的後來我發文啊發文質詢之後當天他就道歉"},{"start":703.818,"end":723.004,"text":"當天才向廠商道歉所以呢你看就是必須要立委這樣子去去後面的跟著的所以呢我也在這裡跟部長你告個狀我不曉得文化部底下有多少這種事情有多少這種事情你剛來的時候你應該要清查一下因為如果文化人心速不振"},{"start":724.591,"end":724.851,"text":"希望這個部長加油"},{"start":754.113,"end":754.854,"text":"謝謝你的指教好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d75336c7fa504516588b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20174dc9c27a7575cebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:32:39 - 11:44:30","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":711,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:44:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:32:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時32分）謝謝召集人，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["李委員坤城：彭主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：你今天第一次備詢，照早上這樣問下來還習慣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：正在適應中。"],["李委員坤城：有什麼心得嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：「足硬篤」。"],["李委員坤城：「足硬篤」？可是我看早上還好啊！大家都對你滿客氣的啊！哪邊讓你覺得比較「硬篤」？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得戒慎……不恐懼啦！"],["李委員坤城：其實我們立法委員都是和藹可親的啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：我跟你第一次碰面應該是在520國宴，在此之前，就只有在報紙上看到人事的發布，其實，有機會的話，你跟所有財政委員會的委員應該多交流一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：一定。"],["李委員坤城：我們才知道未來金管會的走向。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：畢竟過去黃天牧主委當了四年多，大家多有肯定，他平時也都跟所有委員保持交流跟互動。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：那麼對於這部分，我也請彭主委能夠多加強。"],["彭主任委員金隆：一定，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：賴總統在520宣誓就職之後，說過打詐是他的重要目標，新任行政院長：卓榮泰院長在接任閣揆的時候也說打詐是他任內的首要目標、未來內閣首重五打七安，面對詐騙，除了現在通過的打詐四法之外，他還要讓想騙的不敢騙、已經騙的會被抓、騙到手的沒得花。就行政部門來講的話，金管會也屬於五大主責機關的其中之一嘛！那我先請教一下彭主委，未來針對打詐，就金管會這方面，你有沒有什麼樣的看法跟主張？"],["彭主任委員金隆：針對打詐，現在首要的就是把我們現在已經在做的加以落實跟強化。接下來，第二點就是關於打詐專法的部分，我們要趕快把子法建立起來，在通過的第一時間強化幾個重要措施，像委員剛剛提到的橫向聯繫，以及對於……"],["李委員坤城：打詐專法裡面跟金管會相關的有哪些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：裡面主要有幾個條文，比如說建立與經警的聯防機制、金融機構之間的合作、解除金融機構在互通資訊上的保密義務，還有對於被詐騙金額做一些帳務上的處理，我想這些都是非常關鍵的。"],["李委員坤城：好。但你剛剛沒有提到罰則部分。針對罰則部分，在打詐專法或洗錢防制法修正草案裡面都有罰則。當然，打詐專法裡面的罰則對於提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員還是有行政罰；在洗錢防制法修正草案裡面，對於提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員的刑罰是兩年以下有期徒刑。主委，不論是打詐專法或洗錢防制法，對於虛擬資產的行政罰或刑罰，您的看法怎麼樣？適當嗎？是否過輕？還是有可以再加強的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想，既然草案剛通過，這樣的話可以先來試行。"],["李委員坤城：所以你認為是足夠的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是這樣想。"],["李委員坤城：你是這樣想？"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯！"],["李委員坤城：過去我們也曾要求黃主委將虛擬資產專法提出，而他說可能也做過研究了，但是法案內容以及時程要由下一任主委、也就是彭主委決定。那請問一下彭主委，對於虛擬資產專法，你心中的想法是怎麼樣？大概何時會提出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對於虛擬資產的管理現在按照既定策略在進行，專法部分已經請專家研究，九月報告就會送過來，我們預計最快可能是明年。"],["李委員坤城：明年送到立法院嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：中間有一定程序，但至少明年這個時間在金管會這邊……"],["李委員坤城：「九月提出來」是指金管會九月份會送到行政院嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於九月是這樣：上次在黃主委任內也有跟大家報告，因為虛擬資產專法涉及的層面滿複雜的，我們正在請專家學者研究，而這份報告已經快要完成，按照我們的合約，九月……"],["李委員坤城：九月完成報告？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那我們也會趕快、加快研議過程。至於我說最快也是明年的事情，是指金管會這邊有結果送出來。"],["李委員坤城：所以明年才會送行政院、明年才會送立法院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是這樣。"],["李委員坤城：我怎麼記得之前黃主委不是這樣講的啊？我記得黃主委之前說下個會期、九月份就會送到立法院來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是按照我們現在的時程。"],["李委員坤城：局長？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我請本會張局長回答。"],["張局長振山：我們的概念是找學者研究之後，初稿會在九月份看得到，至於後面要落實到條文的話，我們還要從細部討論，所以剛剛主委才會說大概明年就可以看到。"],["李委員坤城：所以今年有關虛擬資產的專法不會送行政院、也沒辦法送到立法院就對了？"],["張局長振山：是的。"],["李委員坤城：所以明年才會送？"],["張局長振山：對。"],["李委員坤城：明年才會送？"],["張局長振山：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，那至少要再把這個時程確定一下，因為我們上次問黃主委的時候，黃主委都還滿保守的，在態度上是一副接下來是下一任主委的事情了，他大概也沒辦法決定太多。","我再問一下，之前也有滿多委員在問的，就是關於壽險業的事情、壽險業資本適足率的問題。關於三商美邦跟新光人壽的資本適足率，在三月底的時候，這兩家公司都未達到法定標準的200%嘛！對不對？你們也做了處罰。那請問一下，到了六月，這兩家公司有辦法達到法定的資本適足率嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可不可以請保險局局長跟您做詳細說明？"],["李委員坤成：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：請施局長。"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，因為我們已經請公司再提他們的財業務改善計畫，等計畫來了之後，我們會評估他們到底後續……"],["李委員坤城：提出來了沒有？現在已經五月底了欸！"],["施局長瓊華：新光應該……"],["李委員坤城：三月份那時候已經不夠了、也就是沒有達到標準了……"],["施局長瓊華：對，而5月24日……"],["李委員坤城：那理論上就會提出來了啊！"],["施局長瓊華：時間快到了，我們有給他們一點時間啦！"],["李委員坤城：還沒有提出來喔？"],["施局長瓊華：還沒，5月24……"],["李委員坤城：到現在還沒有提出來喔？都被你們罰了也還沒提出來喔？"],["施局長瓊華：財報確認時間是三月底嘛！我們四月發文給他們，所以大概五月底左右，他們會送過來。"],["李委員坤城：那你們有沒有做什麼樣的指示、要求，希望他們能夠達到哪一些標準、以達到資本適足率？"],["施局長瓊華：我們希望他們提出一個可行方案，能夠改善RBC、符合規定，儘速回到法定標準。"],["李委員坤城：你這樣講很空泛啊！我是說有沒有一些標準啊！或是說哪些標準他們沒有達到，而你們做了要求，讓他們可以達到？他們要提供什麼樣的選擇？"],["施局長瓊華：我們會請他們提出計畫，譬如說增資，增資也是一個選項。他們也可能會發債，或者他們會提出一些財業務裡面的改善措施，讓他們的RBC能夠做出調整。所以在財務結構調整上，他們也會試試看。"],["李委員坤城：現金增資合理嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：現金增資是其中一個重要選項。或者還有其他選項，例如發債。"],["李委員坤城：那這兩家公司呢？這兩家公司在你們的要求之下，有提出什麼樣的改善方向嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：等5月24號以後，根據他們提來的報告，我們會去評估他們提出來的做法是不是可行──進度上是不是可行。"],["李委員坤城：三個月的時間有辦法達標嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：這要看提出的項目是什麼。如果是現金增資的話，照這樣看，應該有一些他們已經在做了，有一些則會落到下半年。"],["李委員坤城：現金增資的，你是指新光？"],["施局長瓊華：新光跟三商都有過現金增資，兩家都有。"],["李委員坤城：會有子公司上繳盈餘這部分嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：新光的子公司上繳盈餘在上半年已經完成了，是70億。"],["李委員坤城：那還是不夠嘛！"],["施局長瓊華：還不夠。"],["李委員坤城：還不夠？"],["施局長瓊華：所以還要再提。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在新光是要雙管齊下嗎？除了現金增資，然後繼續上繳盈餘嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：他們上繳盈餘的部分在六月以前已經完成了，現在正在做的還有發債。在發債部分，現在預估六月底也會有大概55億的發債金額。另外，下半年還有現金增資的規劃。"],["李委員坤城：這樣有辦法達到你們的要求嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：這個部分可能還要看最近整個RBC的狀況，我們要進行評估啦！那需要試算。"],["李委員坤城：那到四月呢？四月有最新資本適足率的數字出來嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：去年年底的數字在四月是出來了，所以我們才會發公文給他們，請他再提……"],["李委員坤城：不是去年年底的數字啦！去年年底的數字當然我們現在都知道啦！我是說有最新資本適足率的數字出來嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：沒有，再來就要看六月的數字啦！而六月現在還沒到。"],["李委員坤城：大家都知道彭主委跟壽險業還滿熟的，那你跟新光人壽董事長魏寶生熟不熟？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他以前是我在保險司的副司長。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望公歸公、私歸私啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["李委員坤城：對於一般民眾來講，當然希望業者達到資本適足率，對大家才有保障，但是我這樣問，局長又答得很含糊，其實我也不太確定以他們目前提出來的方案或是你們對他們的要求，到六月的時候能不能達到資本適足率的標準。"],["彭主任委員金隆：以我們上次給他們的公函，是給他們一個月回覆，而一個月的期限應該是5月24號。"],["李委員坤城：5月24號？就是這幾天？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，他們要把這一個月……以上次我們發處分函下去起算一個月，期限就是5月24號要交來，所以剛剛局長才會說還沒看到他們的計畫。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我下次再來問好了，好不好？謝謝。謝謝召委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位質詢請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵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的話也請彭主委這部分能夠多加強520賴總統在宣誓就職之後他也說過打詐是他重要的目標"},{"start":92.847,"end":112.868,"text":"那我們新任的這個行政院長卓榮泰卓院長那他在就任革魁的時候他也說這個打詐是他這個任內首要的目標這個未來內閣他手中這個武打棄安那面對這個這個詐騙的話呢除了我們現在通過這個打詐釋法之外呢"},{"start":113.689,"end":136.478,"text":"他想要讓這個想騙的不敢騙已經騙的會被抓騙到手的沒得花那當然這一個就這個行政部門來講的話這個我們金管會也是屬於這個五大主責機關的其中之一嘛那我先請教一下我們彭主委那未來對於這個打仗這方面在金管會這方面你有沒有什麼樣的這個看法跟主張"},{"start":137.554,"end":161.187,"text":"打詐現在最首要就是說我們把我們現在已經在做的就把它落實跟強化接下來第二個就是有關那個打詐專法的部分我們要趕快把執法建立起再通過第一時間去強化這些幾個重要的措施像剛剛委員應該提到了橫向的聯繫以及對於打詐專法裡面跟金管會有相關的有哪些"},{"start":162.539,"end":178.734,"text":"主要幾個條文呢主要針對比如說我們建立一個跟經景的聯房機制還有金融機構之間的合作還有解除那個金融機構在互通資訊保密的義務還有一些對一些被詐騙的金額做一些賬戶上的處理我想這些都是非常非常關鍵的"},{"start":179.835,"end":180.456,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":199.243,"end":226.09,"text":"提供虛擬資產服務是事業或人員還是有行政法然後在洗錢防治法的修正草案裡面呢對這個虛擬資產服務的事業或人員的刑罰呢是兩年以下有期徒刑那主委認為這個不論是打詐專法或是說這個洗錢防治法對於虛擬資產的這個行政法跟刑罰您覺得看法是怎麼樣適當嗎還是過輕還是可以再加強的"},{"start":226.789,"end":235.781,"text":"那我想這個草案剛通過我覺得這樣的話應該是可以先來試行所以你認為是足夠的我是這樣想你是這樣想"},{"start":236.653,"end":264.466,"text":"那對於這個過去我們也曾要求這個黃主委就這個虛擬資產專法來這個提出來那他也說這個可能也做過研究了但是呢法案的內容然後還有時程由下一任主委就是彭主委來決定那請問一下彭主委對這個虛擬資產這個專法的這個心中的想法是怎麼樣那大概何時會提出來"},{"start":265.154,"end":293.956,"text":"我們對於那個虛擬資產的管理現在按照我們既定的這個策略在進行那我們對於這個那個專法的部分呢我們已經請那個專家在做研究9月呢他的報告就會送過來那我們大概預計最快可能是明年明年送到立法院嗎這個中間有一定的程序至少我們在明年的時間我們在金管會之間是9月提出來9月提出來是你們9月份這個金管會"},{"start":295.908,"end":318.362,"text":"會送到行政院嗎?不是9月是這樣因為我們上次在黃州的時候也有跟大家報告就是說我們現在因為這個虛擬市場專法設計的層面蠻複雜我們再請專家學者再研究這個報告已經快完成9月按照我們的那個9月完成報告對對對那我們就趕快來加快來研議這個過程那我說最快也是明年事情才會由金管會這邊會有結果會送出來"},{"start":319.193,"end":334.436,"text":"所以明年才會送行政院明年才會送立法院這樣應該是這樣我怎麼記得之前黃主委不是這樣講的啊我怎麼記得之前黃主委說這個下個會期9月份就會送到立法院來"},{"start":335.743,"end":364.124,"text":"應該是說按照我們現在的那個實施﹖徐局長對那我們請我們張局長回答應該是我們的概念是說找協議來研究出稿我們會在9月份看得到那後面要落實的話那條文我們還要細部去討論所以剛才主委才說我們大概明年就可以來看到所以今年不會有關虛擬資產專法不會送行政院也沒辦法送到立法院就對了是的是明年才會送對明年才會送是"},{"start":366.826,"end":390.613,"text":"至少要把這個時程再把它確定一下因為我們上次在問黃主委的時候黃主委都還蠻保守的他就一副覺得說接下來就是接下來主委的事情他也大概沒辦法決定太多那我再問一下我剛剛這個之前也蠻多委員在問的有關於這個受險的事情受險的這個資本市儲率的問題"},{"start":391.778,"end":399.063,"text":"請問一下到6月的時候這兩家公司有辦法達到這一個法定的這個資本市值率嗎?保安局局長跟您做詳細的說法好 謝謝請問市局長"},{"start":421.107,"end":431.08,"text":"報告委員因為我們已經請公司再提他的財業改善計畫等他來了以後我們來評估他到底後續提出來的沒有因為現在五月底了欸"},{"start":432.901,"end":461.97,"text":"那個星光應該...那3月份的時候已經不夠了嘛就沒有達到標準那理論上就會貼出來啦快快應該時間快到了我們有給他一點時間啦還沒有貼出來喔還沒5月20日他現在還沒有貼出來喔都被你們罰了都還沒有貼出來喔我們那個財報確認時間是在3月底嘛那我們4月發文給他們那所以大概5月底左右他們會會送過來那你們有沒有做什麼樣的指示要求"},{"start":463.09,"end":483.77,"text":"希望他們能夠達到哪一些的標準?能夠達到這個日本市主義...我會希望他提出一個可行的方案能夠改善他的這個RBC的規定儘速回到法定標準你這樣講很空泛啊我說我們有一些標準啊或是說哪一些他們沒有達到然後你們做一個要求他可以達到"},{"start":485.18,"end":513.811,"text":"如果他們要提供什麼樣的一個選擇他們會請他們提比如說像增資啦增資也是一個選項啦還有就是他們有可能也會去發債啦或者他們會提一些財業務裡面的一些改善的措施讓他的RBC能夠做調整所以在他的財務結構調整上他們也會現金增資合理嗎現金增資是其中一個重要的選項或者是還有其他的發債"},{"start":515.091,"end":535.138,"text":"那這兩家公司呢?這兩家公司在你們的要求之下有提出什麼樣的改善的方向嗎?等5月24日以後他們提來的我們會去評估他提出來的那個是不是可行啦進度上是不是可行三個月的時間有辦法達標嗎?"},{"start":537.319,"end":562.057,"text":"這要看他提出的項目是什麼如果現金增資的話照這樣看的話應該應該有一些已經他們在做了有一些是會落到下半年現金增資你是指星光星光跟三商都有過現金增資兩家都有然後有會有這一個子公司上繳盈餘這部分嗎"},{"start":563.682,"end":578.21,"text":"新光的子公司上繳盈餘在上半年已經完成了那還是不夠嗎?還不夠,所以他還要再提所以現在新光是要雙管齊下嗎?現金增資然後再繼續上繳盈餘嗎?"},{"start":580.924,"end":601.616,"text":"目前他們上繳盈餘的部分6月以前已經完成了然後他現在在做的還有發債那發債的部分現在預估在6月底也會有大概55億的發債的金額另外他下半年還有現金增資的規劃那這樣有辦法達到你們的要求嗎?"},{"start":605.21,"end":632.064,"text":"這個部分可能還要看最近它的那個整個RBC的狀況我們要進行評估啦那個要試算那到4月呢?4月有最新的有資本市足率的這一個數字出來嗎?那個去年年底的數字4月是出來的我們才會發公文給他們請他再提不是去年年底啦去年年底當然我們現在就知道啦我說有最新的有這個資本市足率的數字出來嗎?"},{"start":633.244,"end":658.674,"text":"沒有,再來就要看6月的數字啦所以6月現在還沒到那大家知道彭主委跟受選役還蠻熟的那你跟這個新光人壽董事長魏寶生熟不熟他以前是我在保險室的司長是我的副司長所以這個我是希望公歸公司歸司啦那也希望說齁"},{"start":659.816,"end":685.204,"text":"對於這個一般民眾來講當然希望說他達到這一個資本市主率對大家才有保障但是我這樣問局長好像答得很含糊其實我也不太確定說他目前所提出來這個方案或是你們對他的要求能不能到6月的時候達到這個資本市主率因為我們上次給他的公函是給他一個月內要回復一個月的期限是5月應該5月24日"},{"start":687.114,"end":698.438,"text":"5月24日,就是這幾天?對,他要把那個一個月,上次我們處分函下去一個月,他的期限是5月24日要來。所以剛剛局長才會說還沒看到他的計畫。好,那我下次再來問好了,好不好?好,謝謝,謝謝召委,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d5981951a6d77790c3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d20173d14f17e9fe3e1c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:32:19 - 11:40:45","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":506,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:40:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:32:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時32分）主席，謝謝。請國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請國發會。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委好。今天可惜主委還沒有過來，但是我想你應該已經跟主委開過會了吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：有找大家一起開會嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委在這一次有特別提到，面對AI時代，希望能夠讓臺灣AI產業化、產業AI化，有沒有具體說要怎麼做？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想，AI這個政策，新內閣成立之前，其實也已經有晶創臺灣了，也有AI 1.0跟2.0的相關政策，那我覺得……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣現在AI相關產業的人才缺口有多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上我們看看STEM的人才，我們有做一些推估，具體的數字可不可以再提供給委員？"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣的產業相關數據媒體也有整理出來，AI應用是三大產業領域裡面人才缺口最大的，總共有高達2.5萬個人才缺口。本席想請教，感覺現在新政府言必稱AI，AI內閣、AI產業化、產業AI化，我們今天也在審理與人才相關的一些法條，就我們自己最內部的來看，如果說我們自己的產業都有高達2萬5,000個人才缺口，那我們要怎麼樣培養AI的人才？還是用口號？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想絕對不是口號。"],["洪委員孟楷：我也希望不是口號。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。其實國科會在AI 1.0、AI 2.0裡面，人才培育就是重點項目之一，我們基本的策略就是，第一個就是先培養我們高教的STEM的相關人才，比如說，增加招生的名額跟科系，而且讓那些非資訊的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以跟教育部、大學合作？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，跟教育部合作，然後有產學共育，譬如說，我們的半導體學院，是在創新條例裡面的。然後另外一個就是包括延攬，晶創臺灣裡面有包含怎麼樣延攬AI的新創人才到臺灣來。"],["洪委員孟楷：外國的人才？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，外國人才。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以預計這幾方面的比例怎麼配比？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上當然越多越好，每一個都是。"],["洪委員孟楷：既然越多越好，那就整個餅越多越好，你有辦法補足2.5萬人的缺口，那另外一方面，多少是我們臺灣自己高教培養，多少是外國人才進來，這都要去計算吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個都有計算吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，會有計算。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個都有規劃吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在的方向是什麼？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上STEM的人才裡面，我們逐年都擴增它占所有高教畢業生的比重，目前應該是到35%左右，我們希望逐年提升。"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委，你這個資料會後提供給本席辦公室，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是另外一個部分，除了人才，還有能源，也相當重要。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛從衛環委員會下來，今天環境部長備詢，環境部長有提到一個很重要的，就是在今年，本來是說4月，我們的碳費費率要出來，但是沒有出來，現在又說6月才要開審議委員會，希望能夠訂立碳費，但我們也看到了，國發會希望達到2050淨零碳排目標，所以也push環境部趕快來把碳費確認，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想碳費的徵收目前應該還是按照既有的規劃時程來進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：既有的規劃時程是什麼時候？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：明年就要開始。"],["洪委員孟楷：明年徵收嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年公告，明年徵收嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊。那今年都還沒公告啊，這是重點。本來講3月底公告，因為千呼萬喚總是要出來嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：先說3月底，然後又講說4月底，現在又講說6月，6月能不能出來？剛剛環境部長講的是說，那是碳費審議委員會的決策，部長無權過問。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想，的確就如部長說的，因為我們碳費的制訂有成立一個委員會，所以我們還是要尊重委員會的決定，那當然我們會希望至少在今年底可以在委員會裡面達到一個共識，然後達到一個決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛講目標還是不變，但是你又沒有辦法，所以你只能希望。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。跟委員報告，其實情勢是在變化當中的……"],["洪委員孟楷：情勢當然在變化，滾動檢討嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，那我現在的講法就是說，我們現在的設定是按照既定的時程。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有信心在今年6月的時候可以訂出費率？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上委員會我沒有參加。"],["洪委員孟楷：您不是主委，我不為難你，但是另外一個部分，能源政策是不是也應該要滾動檢討？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：同意嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在七大工業國G7之前有提出了一個方向，什麼方向？他們的結論你有沒有看到？七大工業國之前提出的結論，他們不再發表反核的言論，並且承認核能環保的地位，這是第一個。第二，2035年之前逐步淘汰燃煤發電，就是減少火力發電的占比，尤其是碳排比較大的燃煤發電，2035年要淘汰燃煤發電，承認核能環保的地位，不再發表反核的言論。既然如此，現在大家也都在講，國發會規劃的2050年電力配比目標，再生能源占60%到70%，非常高的比例，甚至是高過一半以上，以現在還剩二十多年的時間，有辦法做到嗎？以現在的技術、人力、物力、效率。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：綠能節能的技術是會與時俱進、突飛猛進的，IEA也有說過，我們要達到2050年淨零碳排的目標，2030年以後都是要靠創新的技術來做，所以到時候有更多新技術，比如說氫能，有其他的創新能源的技術會出來，在這個衡量之下，我們覺得有可能達到，因為這個設定的60%到70%，我們跟其他的國家比較，或者是IEA公布的再生能源比較……"],["洪委員孟楷：高副主委，你這樣的講法，好像我們國發會有時空旅人回來告訴你說未來一切都可以解決，所以現在不用擔心啦，60%到70%就訂下去啦。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是說，IEA認為說……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們討論能源方向是務實、理性。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，當然是務實。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且更重要的是要符合現實。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你剛剛有講滾動檢討，有收到滾動檢討的指令了嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們的前主委有在這個會場講過，就是說，能源政策的檢討，一切是在全民有共識之下，會做決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在前主委已經高升到秘書長了，他有沒有新的指示？目前還沒有？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為他已經不是我的主管了。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天是520之後新政府上任後第一天到立法院接受質詢，我們以理性科學的方式來互相溝通，最重要的是專業問政，我也希望未來的每一次答詢我們都本著專業，而不是政治意識型態，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3303437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.83471875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.99409375,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.17971875,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.58471875,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.07409375,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.30596875,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.189718750000004,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.43409375,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.95221875,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.97534375,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.64909375,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":71.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.39534375000001,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.23471875,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.48659375000001,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.29159375,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.72971875,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.48471875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.30221875000001,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.06909375000001,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.43159375,"end":112.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.66721875,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.55284375000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.76784375000001,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.78471875000001,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.82846875,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.51971875,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.69096875,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.04096875000002,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.63471875000002,"end":162.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.76909375,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.22034375,"end":166.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.65471875,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.72221875000002,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.06221875,"end":182.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.90159375000002,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.63534375,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.49159375000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.94721875000002,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.26284375,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.03784375,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.92784375000002,"end":204.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.89784375000002,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.25221875000003,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.26909375000002,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.55096875,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.85471875000002,"end":213.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.75284375,"end":214.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.22534375,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.51909375000002,"end":229.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.36221875,"end":234.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.32346875000002,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.62659375,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.63471875000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.76534375000003,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.71034375000002,"end":250.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.73034375,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.45159375000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.58221875,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.77971875000003,"end":258.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.83846875,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.66534375000003,"end":275.3128437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1.0、AI 2.0裡面,其實人才培育就是它的重點項目之一啦。那我們基本的策略就是第一個就是先培養我們高教的、STAND相關的人才,譬如說增加招生的名額跟科系。然後呢,而且讓那些非資訊的…所以跟教育部合作、跟大學。對。"},{"start":142.335,"end":142.415,"text":" ﹝語言中﹞"},{"start":163.837,"end":163.937,"text":"對,有。好。"},{"start":185.023,"end":185.323,"text":"主委,您這個資料"},{"start":201.376,"end":203.898,"text":"會後提供給本席辦公室,好不好?"},{"start":203.898,"end":223.491,"text":"是,可以。但另外一個部分除了人才還有就是能源也相當重要。本席剛剛從未還委員會下來,今天環境部長被尋。環境部長有提到一個很重要,就是在今年本來是說四月我們的碳費、費率要出來,但是沒有出來。"},{"start":224.734,"end":239.54,"text":"現在說六月才要開審議委員會希望能夠把電力碳費但我們也看到了國發會就是認為說現在2050精靈碳排目標所以也不許環境部說趕快來把碳費這邊要確認對不對"},{"start":243.042,"end":243.142,"text":"是,是。"},{"start":260.757,"end":272.269,"text":"因為千呼萬喚總是要使出來嘛三月底然後又講說四月底現在又講說六月六月能不能出來剛剛環境部長講的是說那是碳費審議委員會的決策部長無權過問"},{"start":276.211,"end":276.231,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":295.031,"end":317.334,"text":"你剛講目標還是不變,但是你沒有辦法,所以你只能希望。對,我跟委員報告就是說,其實情勢是在變化當中的。情勢當然在變化,滾動檢討嘛。那我現在的講法就是說,我們現在的設定是按照既定的時程。有沒有信心在今年六月的時候可以出來費率?"},{"start":318.961,"end":340.04,"text":"就看看那個,因為那個基本上委員會我沒有參加。您不是主委,我會為難你啦。是。但另外一個部分,能源政策是不是也應該要滾動檢討?我同意,我想同意。同意嗎?對。現在七大工業國G7,他們之前有提出了一個方向,什麼方向?它的結論,有沒有看到?七大工業國。"},{"start":344.339,"end":368.001,"text":"之前提出的結論他們認為核能不再發表反核的言論並且承認核能環保地位這一個第二2035年之前逐步淘汰燃煤發電就是減少火力發電的佔比尤其是碳排比較大的燃煤2035要淘汰燃煤發電"},{"start":370.02,"end":397.783,"text":"承認核能環保的地位不再發表反核的言論。那既然如此我想現在大家都在講我們國發會規劃的2050電力配比目標再生能源佔60到70%非常高的比例甚至是高過一半以上以現在還剩20多年的時間有辦法做到嗎?以現在技術、人力、物力、效率"},{"start":399.235,"end":423.04,"text":"如果我又和就是令人節能那個技術是會與時俱進突飛猛進的那IAEA有說過其實我們要達到2050年淨零碳排的目標其實到就是2030年以後都是要靠創新的技術來做所以到時候有更多比如說青人有其他的創新人員的技術會出來"},{"start":424.6,"end":449.07,"text":"﹗在這個衡量之下呢,我們覺得因為這個設定的60到70,我們跟其他的國家比較,或者是IEA公佈的這個暫時領域比較...﹗高國主委,你這樣講法好像我們國發會有時空旅人回來告訴你說未來一切都可以解決,所以現在不用擔心啦,60、70%就定下去啦。應該是說IEA認為說...﹗我們討論能源方向是務實﹗是,當然是務實﹗理性,而且更重要的是要"},{"start":449.87,"end":476.597,"text":"所以你剛剛有講滾動檢討,有收到滾動檢討的指令了嗎?基本上就是,我現在因為我們那個前主委有在這個會場上講過,就是說人類政策的檢討一切是在全民有共識之下會有做決定。所以現在前主委已經高升到秘書長了,他有沒有新的指示?目前還沒有?"},{"start":477.381,"end":478.761,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"152813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d1f5fb7ebac87ec0a42979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20175cc478b7cbe24b1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:20:31 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過程 你應該很理解為什麼大家認為需要一個獨立機關這個我們再來 再來好 再來研議 我到最後一頁我的主張欸 不見了最後一頁吳思瑤的主張好 今天PPT有點出狀況我的建議是這樣第一個這一頁沒有嗎"},{"start":593.373,"end":621.125,"text":"好 要設立一個司法科學委員會為獨立機關到底是你們現在法務部的模式還是說朝過去大家在論證比較希望更有獨立機關的模式我們可以來討論你才剛上任第一天沒有問題第二個很重要的是要研議一套適用於刑事民事行政訴訟的證據法的專法這也是當初大家在討論的您這個部分的看法如何"},{"start":625.126,"end":625.307,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":628.715,"end":657.522,"text":"各位報告這個司科院到底他要設向我目前草案所所定的一個三級機關還是如這個市改會所提的要一個獨立的一個委員會那事實上本部在他草擬這草案的時候已經召集相關部會研擬過很多次了當然這個站在整個國家的政策上的考量目前法務部立場是目前草案是定在這個法務部底下設一個獨立的委員會去做這個相關的國家級的這個科學的研究目前的"},{"start":658.682,"end":677.398,"text":"沒問題 我們後面還有很多時間可以討論如果在Under在法務部下 我也不是反對只是說如何針對他的選擇 他的專業性 他的跨領域他的法制作業 跟他的人才培育 他的認證制度包括專家跟實驗室間的 要整套在不是為了組織而組織 我也不是為了獨立而讓他獨立所以這些配套要做得好"},{"start":684.224,"end":684.244,"text":"謝謝委員："},{"start":714.127,"end":714.228,"text":"謝謝吳委員 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pricing，就是碳定價的部分，部長覺得如果在環境部的碳定價政策推出之後，能夠對這24%正負1%帶來什麼樣貢獻？能不能有更積極的目標？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，如果就第三階段的管制目標，其實我們看國際很多國家都達不到，那我們也必須好好去檢視未來我們的路徑，包括過去這幾年會如何及未來會如何，其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情。至於碳費到底能不能達到？說真的，以現在國人的認知來說，我是覺得有一點困難，會有多大的效果還是必須去討論。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天跟部長問這個問題的原因，第一個我們當然希望碳費或者碳定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益，對目標能夠更清楚的往前推進，我覺得這是一個重點。因為我們在十二大戰略裡面，我一直覺得很可惜沒有把碳定價給放進去，沒有放進這十二大裡面。接下來我要問的事情，我知道現在在碳費收費辦法裡面，其實有設定所謂高碳洩漏風險事業，這個分成三期，風險係數值分別為0.2、0.4、0.6，坦白說，這個數字出來也引起社會很多的討論，大家看了「哇」一聲，因為打兩折！很多人直接這樣解讀。我想先問部長，這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊，大概就是有參考比如新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的數字。"],["洪委員申翰：有沒有計算的公式？就是這三個數字是從哪裡來的？不是只是參考，而是怎麼算出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAM，它有類似的算法。"],["洪委員申翰：可以提供相對應的三個參數的產生方式嗎？因為我之前有跟環境部要，環境部說他們還不知道，還要回去查一查，當時是這樣跟我講的。這可以提供嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員申翰：今天下班前應該就可以提供，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我有發現這個是很多國家在執行的細節，所以我有特別請我們施委員還有帶環境部的研究組……"],["洪委員申翰：我就是要細節。"],["彭部長啓明：對，要去國外去好好瞭解，因為不見得網路上有公布。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我現在問這三個參數是如何產生的？怎麼訂出來的細節？我就是要這個細節，今天或者這禮拜好不好？這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：這是第一件事情。第二件事情，我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期、第二期、第三期，請問這一期大概是多久時間？包括流程為何？"],["蔡署長玲儀：報告委員，因為這個子法在訂定，我們未來會跟著費率及整個實施的情況來做討論。"],["洪委員申翰：每一期有沒有訂定清楚的條件？達到什麼條件可以進到下一期？或達到什麼時間可以進到下一期？不然你分期沒有意義啊！"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，跟委員報告，這整個會包括碳費徵收對象的起徵點，然後會跟費率的逐期上升都會有連動。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我知道有連動，當然有連動，但是你們可以把參數訂定出來，代表你們對其條件是有評估的。所以每一期設定的條件是什麼？我到了這個條件，我就進到下一期，所以你要跟大家講。你要嘛講時間，要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼，不然大家會問啊，會不會永遠都在第一期？條件是什麼？"],["蔡署長玲儀：目前就是……"],["洪委員申翰：照理來說，邏輯上面來說，如果沒有條件，其實你設定不出參數啊！就算是歐盟有設定期別的參數，它也是跟隨著清楚的條件。"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實有一個前提，就是這些徵收對象都必須要提出自主減量計畫。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是你設定的參數必定是綁著條件嘛，不然怎麼會有參數呢？現在有條件嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟期別的規範。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，但是我要跟你提醒，今天如果只有參數而沒有條件，大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到信服跟信任，你們應該要把條件給講清楚，你要嘛講條件，要嘛講時間。比如兩年是第一期，兩年後第二期，你要嘛給個時間的period，要嘛給清楚的具體條件，這事情講出來，大家才會認為你的參數是有道理的。這部分沒有問題吧？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，跟委員報告，因為現在這個子法在預告當中，委員的提醒，我們會把它放進來做討論。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，照理來說，其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公布了，大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊，我也發現他們人力顯著的不足，我會來加強。"],["洪委員申翰：是。第二個事情我要提醒，其實我們這裡面也包括智慧性減量的部分，我想大家都知道，其實我們在討論智慧性減量的時候，很重要的概念一定是接軌國際，其實所有的在跟你討論碳權或者是減量額度裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性，我想大家都知道，這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準，包括Verra、VCS或Gold Standard都很清楚對於外加性的定義。我要問部長，現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求，我們願不願意接軌國際？"],["彭部長啓明：我絕對是願意接軌國際。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我覺得這很重要喔！因為這是讓我們碳權市場不會落入過於浮濫，甚至劣幣驅逐良幣，我想部長對這部分是專家，你很清楚，所以今天部長在這邊承諾，我們對於減量額度的外加性定義是接軌重要的，至少Verra或Gold Standard，我覺得這個立場要踩住，有沒有問題？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝，沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，最後一個問題，我們看到你的高洩漏風險，其實你有訂定一個不同期數的參數，可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率，請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係？"],["彭部長啓明：其實這裡面就是，例如水泥業可能有從國外進口進來，會影響到本國，所以委員提到一個問題……"],["洪委員申翰：這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣喔！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：我不討論費率高低，但這兩個都折扣，會不會有哪一家企業既享有高洩漏風險的打折，甚至打到0.2，但它同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅折扣？會不會這兩者同時會出現？"],["彭部長啓明：有可能。"],["洪委員申翰：那為什麼我們要用這兩個工具？這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼？它們之間的關係是什麼？"],["施次長文真：很快速跟委員報告，就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的前提是希望它能夠提自主減量計畫，達到指定目標，所以當它如果提自主減量計畫，有指定目標的時候，我們的法制就是給優惠費率，這樣子的做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配額……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我現在要問你一個問題，會不會甚至有些企業拿到的費率是原本訂定的1折，因為它已經打了0.2，就是兩折囉，甚至優惠費率再下去就剩下1折，會不會有這個狀況？"],["施次長文真：如果這個企業可以提SBT的指定目標，那它的優惠費率確實我們希望給予獎勵，所以折扣會是……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次。很簡單，今天要給優惠費率，其實過去在修法的時候，這就是一個爭議的工具，今天要使用這個爭議工具，只有唯一一個可以接受的目的，就是你用了之後可以加速這個企業事業體的轉型，而不是放鬆它在碳定價裡面的承擔，所以我們要能夠確認，你要給它優惠費率或給它打折，你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫，而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被稽核及怎麼被audit？這是關鍵，我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面最重要的前提，而不是變成讓它放鬆它上面的承擔，反而如果放鬆承擔，它可能是放緩轉型。在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間，就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼、我們使用的前提是什麼，我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的稽核。我不是說不能優惠，我知道現在優惠已經入法了，可是在使用的條件上面要明確的訂定，不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水，反而透過低的費率讓它變成是放緩轉型的政策，我覺得從環境部的立場，這是大家不能接受的。次長或部長，這立場應該沒有問題吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題、沒有問題，這個我們會來研商，然後相關的資料會再給委員會。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的審議委員會，我認為這個立場是應該踩住、踩死的，我認為這是合理的事情。這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事，我們是要拿來加速轉型，所以你要確認到底它提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼，而不是拿到優惠費率之後就鬆了一口氣，沒有問題吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。","今天沒有臨時提案需要處理。","下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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蘇長但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間軸的流程感到幸福跟信任的"},{"start":342.403,"end":371.99,"text":"你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把他放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思"},{"start":374.252,"end":389.372,"text":"這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際"},{"start":390.954,"end":414.382,"text":"其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這個外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLD STANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際"},{"start":415.424,"end":441.581,"text":"我絕對是願意接軌復席但我覺得這很重要喔因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLD STANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長我最後一個問題"},{"start":444.127,"end":457.037,"text":"我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係"},{"start":458.693,"end":486.154,"text":"這個其實這裏面就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現"},{"start":489.138,"end":509.313,"text":"為什麼我們要用這兩個工具?這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼?他們之間的關係是什麼?很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提自主減量計畫達到指定目標所以當他如果提自主減量計畫有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率"},{"start":509.932,"end":526.2,"text":"那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至會費率再下去剩下一折"},{"start":527.335,"end":533.158,"text":"會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具"},{"start":547.725,"end":573.478,"text":"今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit"},{"start":574.804,"end":585.374,"text":"這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他的承擔他可能是放緩轉型"},{"start":587.657,"end":609.235,"text":"在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水"},{"start":610.325,"end":639.363,"text":"反而透過低的費率讓他變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這個立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認他到底他提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼"},{"start":640.305,"end":648.187,"text":"而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣。好,謝謝。沒有問題吧?沒有問題。好,部長謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。"}]}},{"id":"152811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d761033c2b5d280a049cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20173945d43fff3066385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:16:32 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藍莓"},{"start":33.241,"end":60.219,"text":"G7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長你記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電"},{"start":63.139,"end":82.498,"text":"對這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在"},{"start":84.172,"end":113.135,"text":"台電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實報告委員這個是台電的這個執掌這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛講台電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了"},{"start":114.096,"end":141.761,"text":"前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到"},{"start":142.827,"end":165.928,"text":"那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大"},{"start":167.649,"end":189.223,"text":"報告委員其實這個探牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近但是比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嗎對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分探費您這邊現在有討論到第4次的探費費率審議會議6月召開那"},{"start":192.185,"end":219.838,"text":"有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在"},{"start":220.999,"end":240.54,"text":"六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他進一下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全不在你"},{"start":241.465,"end":266.224,"text":"但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有四算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好"},{"start":266.724,"end":293.581,"text":"你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部每個"},{"start":294.608,"end":300.884,"text":"官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明"},{"start":304.719,"end":332.892,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要七場七場對現在已經大概有已經有六場了那明天還會有一場對"},{"start":334.272,"end":360.266,"text":"是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議記錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供好那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通好什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這個科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多"},{"start":360.526,"end":377.631,"text":"所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年"},{"start":379.071,"end":400.264,"text":"我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年台灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易"},{"start":401.084,"end":429.462,"text":"但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式"},{"start":430.407,"end":444.552,"text":"那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎"},{"start":445.669,"end":464.487,"text":"是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須和廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理"},{"start":466.084,"end":466.164,"text":"謝謝我們的發言"}]}},{"id":"152810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d4fcd62f6064a51083a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017b57f319d01cb96045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:26:57 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11:32:17","影片長度":"00:05:20","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":320,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:32:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:26:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時27分）謝謝主席，麻煩請長照司副司長。"],["主席：請長照司副司長。"],["吳副司長希文：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：副司長好。今天是針對於我們的外國專業人才延攬跟僱用法的修正草案進行審查，我想你也知道你為什麼會站在這邊，因為今天王委員有一個提案，事實上各國都極盡所能地想要延攬專業人才進入他們的國家，甚至也歡迎專業移民，要做到這個的話，政府要拿出更多更友善、更有利的政策，因為畢竟要吸引這些人來到另外一個國家去貢獻，更何況今天我們要討論的是延攬及僱用外國專業人才的法，這樣子的修正草案，我也有參與連署，在衛環委員會會議中，我們這陣子都在討論，在大缺工、缺人才的時代，政府能夠拿出什麼樣的工具及更友善的政策，來吸引各國人才進入臺灣，來貢獻給臺灣社會。今天各委員有不同版本的修正，各部會也有做出比較好的回應，可是衛福部針對王定宇委員所提修正條文的回應，讓我相當驚訝，因為王委員的修正條文的精神是希望我們在延攬人才的過程當中，重視身障跟長期照護這些部分，這個對於讓國外的重要人才能夠長居在臺灣，事實上是非常友善的一個政策，可是前提是這些人才能為我們臺灣做出貢獻，不管是知識上或是勞動經濟上的貢獻，可是衛福部的回應竟然是說，目前已經有所謂的馬偕計畫，計畫內容大致上是保障居住我國20年以上、每年居住超過183天、經內政部核發外僑永久居留證、對我國有特殊貢獻或奉獻且年滿65歲以上的外籍人士，透過馬偕計畫，可申請我們的長照服務給付。王委員的版本跟馬偕計畫並不衝突，所以在這邊是不是可以先請衛福部針對王委員的版本說明到底對於這個版本的看法是什麼？"],["吳副司長希文：是，委員，衛福部在這邊做一個回應。就像委員說的，要廣納這些外國專業人才，我們其實也是希望能夠吸引更多人才來到臺灣，在就業服務的部分，我們其實是希望能夠朝協助多元跟包容的方向來廣納這些人才。只不過因為這些人才目前可能還是屬於就業的年齡層，後續如果他的眷屬或子女需要使用長照服務，可能還需要再實際精算失能人數或身障又失能的部分，所以我們可能還需要再做一個更嚴謹的相關評估。"],["林委員月琴：可是我要提醒的是，從兒權公約的精神來講，兒權公約第十條也明定父母不應該跟子女長期處於分離的狀況，今天一個外國人才來到臺灣就業，他的子女如果因為身障而不能進入臺灣，我們的照顧服務體系也沒有辦法表現友善的話，是不妥的。更何況再回到身權公約的角度來看，是不是可以回去精算一下到底會產生多少支出？尤其我最近才辦完三場身權法修正案的公聽會，知道每一個障別有不同的需求，我也期待你們在延攬人才的時候，要去考慮身權公約跟兒權公約提及的相關觀念，來保障這些來臺灣貢獻的人能夠帶著配偶跟子女來到臺灣，然後也獲得跟我們一樣同等的照顧，也麻煩你們，是不是可以把已經精算出來的數據提供出來？"],["吳副司長希文：是，這個部分我們後續再做一個評估以後再提供給委員。"],["林委員月琴：兩週可以嗎？"],["吳副司長希文：可以一個月左右的時間嗎？是不是可以請委員讓我們比較詳細地去精算一下這部分的支出？"],["林委員月琴：好，那麻煩你們。謝謝。"],["吳副司長希文：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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﹝延攬及僱用法第十四條條文宣告﹞"},{"start":136.215,"end":154.909,"text":"居住我國二十年以上,每年居住超過一百八十天,經內政部核發外僑永久居住郵政,而對我國有特殊與貢獻,奉獻年滿六十五歲以上的外籍人士透過馬街計劃可申請我們的長照服務的給付等。"},{"start":156.01,"end":174.056,"text":"那王委員的版本跟馬捷計畫並不衝突,所以這邊是不是可以先請我們的衛福部先針對於如果要以王委員的這樣的一個版本,那你們到底對於這個的看法是什麼?是"},{"start":177.359,"end":200.76,"text":"委員那這邊衛福部這邊做一個回應其實對於就像委員說的要能夠廣納這些外國的專業人才那我們其實是也是持說希望能夠吸引更多的人才來到台灣然後不管是說就業服務的這個部分所以我們其實是希望能夠朝能夠協助多元跟包容的方向來去廣納吸引這些人才進來"},{"start":201.781,"end":227.29,"text":"那只不過是說因為這一些人才目前來說他可能現在都還是屬於在就業的年齡層那後續如果說他的眷屬或者是子女那未來可能需要使用長照服務的這個部分那他都可能還需要再去實際的去精算這樣子的一個失能人數的部分或者是說他可能是身障又失能的這一段那所以我們可能還需要再做一個更嚴謹的"},{"start":227.91,"end":254.966,"text":"可是我要提醒的是從兒權公約的精神來講兒權公約第十條也明定父母不應該跟他的子女長期事實上是分離的狀態裡邊那今天一個人才來到台灣他在就業當中他的子女如果今天因為身障而不能進入到台灣因為我們的如果整個的照顧服務體系也沒有辦法表現友善的話更要再回到我們的生權公約角度上來看的話"},{"start":255.746,"end":256.026,"text":"﹚林月琴議員"},{"start":280.202,"end":301.543,"text":"提及的這些相關的觀念來保障來臺灣貢獻的這些人能夠帶著他的配偶跟子女來到臺灣然後也是同樣能夠獲得我們一樣同等的照顧那也麻煩你們是不是可以把這個精算出來的一些數據能夠提供出來"},{"start":302.637,"end":320.35,"text":"響鐘響鐘"}]}},{"id":"152809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d507cf8894eb89667c1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d201712503edbb8ed725a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:23:57 - 11:30:05","影片長度":"00:06:08","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":368,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:30:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:23:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時23分）感謝主席，麻煩邀請次長。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：恭喜！"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：新內閣這個禮拜剛就任，在記者會上有說過居住正義是一個重點，代表新院長對於年輕人買不起房子這個問題也非常瞭解，但是我們到現在還沒看到完整的居住正義政策。過去蔡總統時期的幾任行政院長，雖然蔡總統曾說過為了實現居住正義要蓋多少的社會住宅，但是到現在都還沒有落實，希望新政府上任之後，我知道次長對於設計及城市經營的理念比較有實際的經驗，我相信在你的帶領之下，應該很快就會完成。"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員指教。"],["丁委員學忠：剛才我們也有聽到黃國昌委員提到目前社會住宅實際蓋好的是兩萬多戶，這是實際蓋好的部分，如果是現在正在施工發包當中和已經蓋好的部分加起來，應該有十萬戶吧？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["丁委員學忠：希望可以趕快落成，好完成這項政策。","現在有幾個數字我想跟次長討論一下，就已經公布的數字來看，我們去年第4季的房貸屋平均貸款達到了九百七十多萬元左右，已經創下歷史新高。房貸金額與一年前的來比較，增加85萬元，而且全國房價所得比已經攀升到9.9倍，變成一般民眾要10年都不花薪水，把它存起來，才有辦法買房子，這是以縣市來看。如果是高房價的像我們臺北這裡，這個部分應該要差不多15年都不用吃、不用穿、薪水都不能花，才可能有能力去買一間房子。高房價、低薪水，這有可能造成年輕人不想成家的一個很大的原因。我們也希望新政府針對這個高房價、低薪水的部分，我們還是要來重視一下。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["丁委員學忠：次長，過去針對租屋的補助，我們補助比較多的，不一定是這些租屋的人拿到，有可能是房東去拿到補助的。有關於這個部分，因為我們一直用補助的方式，我相信我們政府也沒有那麼多錢可以繼續這樣一直補助，是不是可以想一個比較好的政策，來協助年輕人可以安心成家？我是有一個想法，可能不只是次長或內政部的權責，應該是要參考很多部會的想法。","現在的年輕人不婚主義的比較多，就是因為像我剛才說的經濟問題、薪水問題、高房價的問題。有可能我現在和長輩住在一起，我不必自己去買房子。我結婚之後，長輩會要求我出去外面買房子。有關這個高房價的問題，我們是不是可以來想一個對策？針對新婚的新人，他們過去從來不曾買過房子，對於他們首次購屋的利息，我們看要怎麼幫他們。有關這個部分，次長有認同嗎？"],["董次長建宏：有。跟委員報告，謝謝委員的指教，我想高房價本來就是政府極力要避免的……"],["丁委員學忠：是。"],["董次長建宏：我們在強化住宅政策、社宅政策，還有租屋補貼，都希望能夠讓大家有合理的房子可以住。剛才委員特別強調青年的首購貸款，其實在去年我們就有推出新的方案，這個新的方案也感謝財政部跟央行等等的支持，所以我們讓年輕人可以有機會在比較低利率的狀況之下去買到他想要買的房子，當然這個是要很多配套……"],["丁委員學忠：可以的話，盡量不用利率啦！看能不能不用利率。首次購屋，而且條件要結婚，這樣才可以。你要結婚之後，要成家，利率部分政府幫你，讓你安心成家，不然我們現在少子化也很嚴重啊！"],["董次長建宏：是。我想這個部分內政部會跟其他部會一起來討論，感謝委員的指教。"],["丁委員學忠：好。"],["董次長建宏：我想讓年輕人一個安心可以住的地方，大家可以安心生小孩，增加國家的國力，這是很重要的。"],["丁委員學忠：好。感謝次長，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，謝謝。","下一位請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","謝謝美惠和柏毅，我們中午就不休息。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有高金素梅委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於一週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於一週內提供，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","林楚茵"],"page_start":401,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員蔡易餘\n等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地\n法第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.85784375,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.69721875,"end":3.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.32534375,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.37596875,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.08846875,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.35409375,"end":11.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.87721875,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.89409375,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.214718750000003,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.15971875,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.547843750000002,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.25659375,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.32721875,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.555968750000005,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.79596875,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.47909375,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.58034375000001,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.64784375,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.42346875,"end":81.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.98784375000001,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.48096875,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.05721875,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.29346875,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.54534375,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.84846875,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.29096875000002,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.40846875,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.17971875,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.36721875,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.87471875,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.39284375000003,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.99596875,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.19284375,"end":207.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.42034375,"end":210.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.68159375000002,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.51284375,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.87971875000002,"end":239.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.22971875000002,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.48659375,"end":274.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.22846875,"end":276.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.00034375,"end":280.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.29096875,"end":281.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.07971875000004,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.09659375,"end":282.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.00346875,"end":313.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.28596875,"end":285.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.74159375,"end":285.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.46596875,"end":294.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.90846875,"end":298.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.94034375,"end":310.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.04096875000005,"end":320.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.46221875000003,"end":321.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.77409375,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.97221875,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.33034375,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.43159375000005,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.59159375,"end":344.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.74346875000003,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.29784375,"end":358.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.36534375,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.83284375,"end":350.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.52346875,"end":362.87721875},{"s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．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":217.814,"end":219.395,"text":"則不予審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具．則不予審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具．則不予審查委員丁學忠"},{"start":240.333,"end":244.536,"text":"三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案．則不予審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案．則不予審查委員丁學忠"},{"start":270.513,"end":297.441,"text":"他們從來沒有去買過房子。我們想他們的首次購屋,我們這個購屋的歷史,我們看要怎麼幫他們倒三天。這個國分市長,看市長有沒有認同。這給委員報告。謝謝委員的指教。我想高房價本來就是政府極力要避免的。我們在強化住宅政策、社宅政策還有租屋補貼都希望能夠讓大家有合理的房子可以住。"},{"start":297.981,"end":320.181,"text":"議員剛才特別強調就是說青年的那個首購貸款其實在去年我們就有推出新的方案那這個新的方案也感謝財政部跟央行等等的支持所以我們讓年輕人就是說他可以有機會去在比較低的利率的狀況之下去買到他想要買的房子當然這個是要有配套"},{"start":322.023,"end":324.184,"text":"我相信這部分我們內政部會跟其他部會一起來討論感謝委員的機構"},{"start":350.258,"end":356.243,"text":"我相信給年輕人一個安心可以大的地方,大家可以安心生意,真的國家的那個國力這是很重要的。好,再感謝次長,辛苦您,感謝,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝我們丁學忠委員的資訊,謝謝。好,下一位,我們邱志偉委員。"}]}},{"id":"152808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d0f75b9085e3225d86fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017f429f83b94f673bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:16:22 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11:27:44","影片長度":"00:11:22","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":682,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:27:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:16:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時16分）謝謝主席，有請小野部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["郭委員昱晴：恭喜部長，那也期待喔！因為我知道您是文化人，您也曾經是影視產業當中重要的主管，跟教育有很多的關聯，同時又是一個藝術家，也是一個文化的出版者。所以在這個部分對您有非常多的期待，希望將來在我們的文化產業當中，能有更多大家想要看到的一些良性的互動跟發展。","接下來我們看下一張，中間那個是我。部長，右邊那位您認識嗎？"],["李部長遠：蠻好的朋友。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，陳慕義大哥。上個禮拜他還特別到我的辦公室來跟我聊天，我想最近陳慕義大哥碰到最大的一個，應該是說大家最關注的一個焦點，就是北影說在「老狐狸」這部劇裡面陳慕義大哥因為戲份不足，所以變成了主角的遺珠之憾，這個部分不知道部長您怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：我來回答一下，因為我曾經是臺北電影節第1屆跟第2屆的主席，換句話說，這個電影節是在我手上創立的。針對這個陳慕義講的話，第一，就是在一個電影中演員出現時間長跟短真的不是主角跟配角的關係。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒錯。"],["李部長遠：他可以演很短，可是他是主角，就像他自己很不服氣說這個電影就叫「老狐狸」。這個電影我看過，他演得真好，所以第一，他到底演得很長還是很短，不代表他是男主角或者男配角，這一點我是OK的。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，我們來看一下這個部分，我們就回歸到在主角或是配角，或者是他們在報名的時候，對於條件上的篩選部分，其實審查還是有一點點小小的爭議。那為什麼會特別來問部長？因為我們的文化部變成是北影的指導單位，相對來講可能也會是主管單位，所以這個部分可能要請部長稍微跟北影來做更進一步的確認。","我們可以看到在個人的獎項部分，其實第四點，複選的時候評審可以視演員實際演出的比例，來更換所謂的主角跟配角的提名項目。另外，在報名的部分，他們在這部電影當中是幫陳慕義大哥報名了男主角的獎項，但最後卻因為所謂的戲份不足，因為我過去也是在戲劇圈，我們知道所謂的戲份不足這件事情，其實根本沒有辦法在角色上做一個認定，因為這個戲份不足到底是他的演出時間不夠長，還是播出時他的片段被剪掉所以戲份不足。其實這中間有很大的爭議，但是以這部戲劇來說，陳慕義大哥就是靠著他的戲劇張力，我相信部長也看過這部電影，陳慕義大哥在裡面其實是非常非常重要的，男主角應該就是他，他就是最重要的一個角色。","我們可以看到在第二點報名的部分，北影其實可以要求報名者再補充或補交更多其他的文件，來證明他就是男主角。或者是北影有沒有比較善意的去跟陳慕義大哥說，我們是不是可以把提名角色的部分從最佳男主角變成最佳男配角，來做這樣的一個權衡，有沒有這樣的討論？這是對於一個演出工作者最基本的尊重啦！這個部分我不曉得就文化部您的了解，北影有做到溝通的管道嗎？"],["李部長遠：跟委員報告一下，北影其實是我們文化部跟他合作，我們有機會跟他合作都是在活動上，比如說他們要培養新人，這個辦法過程我們完全沒有碰，因為他是臺北市政府文化基金會底下的一個單位，所以我完全不知道他們這個……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們文化部是指導單位，我想是不是之後可以來做這樣子的聯繫跟溝通？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來我們再來看一下，這個可能前面有幾位立委朋友也有特別提到了，就是關於臺文館的吉祥物部分，那其實是真的很可愛，但是後來因為前後的說法當然也確定了，這個其實還是會有抄襲的疑慮啦！我要講的是另外一件事情，就是在政府採購的資訊網上面，我們其實可以查詢得到，就是提供這個圖像的公司叫做蹦世界數位創意股份有限公司。他大概從民國107年開始，連續7年取得了臺灣文學館的標案，他所有標案的項目名稱是「展覽數位內容建置採購案」，每一年大概是平均200多萬左右。整個7年下來，連續7年得標，連續7年大概將近有1,500多萬。我想在這中間整個所有的過程，到引發這一次的圖像抄襲事件，我不曉得創作者的主管單位文化部對這個部分是不是也要嚴查？或者是他們在得標的過程當中，我們有沒有落實查核的調查？這個部分是不是……"],["李部長遠：有，我們剛才前面已經……"],["郭委員昱晴：我想還是請相關人員來說明。"],["李部長遠：好，請相關人員講。"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，文學館委託蹦世界的其實總共是4個標案，之所以會長達7年是因為我們通常有標案會有後續擴充，所以其中有3次是屬於後續擴充的部分。可是針對這7個標案，是不是在整個招標的過程或者是招標的審查委員有沒有什麼樣的問題，我們已經請文學館把這7次招標的相關文件全部都送到文化部，會由我們政風處跟我們的秘書處協同來檢視。"],["郭委員昱晴：你是說這7次是7年來？"],["李次長靜慧：這7年的所有……"],["郭委員昱晴：也就是說我們這中間其實沒有每一年都去追查，應該是說你們沒有每一年去定期的查核，是這個意思嗎？直到這個問題出來，所以你們對這7年才一次總體檢。"],["李次長靜慧：文化部裡面有一個所謂的例行查核，就由政風單位，可是因為文化部門非常多，我們不會對一個館的某一個案子特別去查核，他每一次等於用抽查的方式來進行，這7年來我們剛好都沒有抽到這個相關的案子。這一次就要求他們先把資料都送到文化部，由政風跟秘書處來查核整個招標的過程，或者是訂約的過程、履約的過程有沒有任何的瑕疵。"],["郭委員昱晴：可是要累積到7年，如果他得過且過都沒有被你抽查到，是不是有可能就一直這樣子標下去，然後你們也就這樣草率的通過了，會有這種狀況嗎？你們將來在落實查核的部分是不是要更加嚴謹？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分謝謝委員的提醒，在查核的部分我們會來……"],["郭委員昱晴：7年的時間很長喔！"],["李次長靜慧：好，知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是不是應該每一年都要知道我們手上的標案是誰標走了，我們都應該要知道這個標案的對象，要去做更緊密的監督啦！好嗎？這是我們文化部的部分。"],["李次長靜慧：好，知道了，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，另外我想請教一下，就是從2015年通過這個法案之後，其實我們都會規劃這個水下文化資產的展覽。我不知道今年有沒有什麼樣的規劃跟進度？"],["李部長遠：水下文化資產是一個蠻新的東西，我是不是可以請文資局的局長回答？"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["陳局長濟民：報告委員，我們每一年針對文化資產的立法到現在，大概每年都做了三大工作項目，就是對於水下文化資產的深化研究，像目前經過了文獻的調查，還有其他的口訪，發現了水下文化資產大家比較有興趣的就是沉船，現在大概有387筆的沉船資料。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是目前只有8艘對不對？"],["陳局長濟民：是，8艘裡面是所謂的我們這個分級，有的是所謂的列冊，已經可以判定它有文化歷史的價值。另外，我們對這387筆沉船會進行深化的研究，有一些沉船的出水文物，我們就會整理和修復、保存。還有就是這些水下文化資產專業人才的培訓，再來就是推廣教育等等。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以您提到這個專業的文化，也就是考古隊，就是水下的考古隊，因為我們臺灣的地形比較特殊，我們附近海洋的洋流，包含氣候或是東北季風，甚至可能因為地震的關係，我們都知道其實每一個考古的潛水隊員，他們的養成是非常不容易的，目前我們知道只有7位到8位，但問題是剛剛您所提到的，臺灣附近的海域大概有387艘，但是目前被列為所謂的文化資產部分其實是有8艘，這個人力的部分你們怎麼補？"],["陳局長濟民：人力的部分，現在我們是跟一些學術研究單位合作，我們用隨案養成的方式，因為我們現在國內的這些學校對於水下考古這個科系，其實是少之又少。現在我們大概就只有跟清華大學，還有中央研究院這個單位大家來合作，用隨案養成的方式來培育人才。"],["郭委員昱晴：有沒有一個比較近期的計畫，或者是這個部分我們可能還要再更進一步的研議？"],["陳局長濟民：好，委員我是不是可以事後提供詳細的書面資料給你？"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝，也謝謝部長。其實我們想要討論的問題很多，尤其是針對我們的兒少，我們也知道其實在臺灣關於兒童的節目部分，自製的節目其實比例是非常之低的，這部分其實我們真的要靠部長和我們大家一起來努力好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝郭昱晴委員，部長請回。我們接下來休息5分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時33分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會，接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.352843750000005,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.53784375,"end":51.634718750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﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":621.863,"end":638.215,"text":"人力部門現在我們是跟一些學術研究單位來做一些合作我們用隨案養成的方式因為我們現在國內的這些學校裡面對於考古這個科系其實是少之又少現在我們大概就只有跟清華大學"},{"start":638.895,"end":653.701,"text":"中央研究院等這個單位大家來合作用隨案養成的方式來培育人才有沒有什麼樣一個比較近期的一個計畫或者是這個部分我們可能還要再更進一步的演繹好委員我是不是可以事後提供書面詳細的書面資料給您好好謝謝"},{"start":655.321,"end":655.481,"text":"謝謝郭昱晴"}]}},{"id":"152807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d6bde47235cc2e4e03a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017200077becbf458025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:19:14 - 11:26:55","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":461,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:26:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:19:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時19分）謝謝主席，請高副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：副主委你好。這應該算是今天最新的好消息，不過可能也是很艱困的挑戰，因為半導體業的發展熱，今天最新的新聞提到，我們產業用電創了最近兩年半最大的漲幅，上個月，就是4月份，我們的用電比去年同期成長了6%，這算很好的消息，表示我們的產業和整個經濟是在往上走的，可是看起來用電的挑戰非常非常大，所以今天我要請教你一個問題，第一個，用電量一直在增加，現在電到底夠不夠？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，充裕穩定的電力，絕對是政府的重中之重，我只能是……"],["張委員啓楷：新主委是AI專家，對不對？他推AI，AI跟精密的晶片、半導體，都是用電耗電非常大的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：這個好消息就代表後面挑戰就非常大了。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我直接問你，很清楚的，目前半導體產業精密晶片製造占我們用電的比例有多高？100度電裡面有多少電是用在半導體上面？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這個數字我不是非常清楚，可是就我所知，其實經濟部都會針對每年的用電需求量跟供給量做一個評估，這也是一個公開的資訊。"],["張委員啓楷：副主委，我請教你這個問題，因為我是嘉義人，台積電要來嘉義設廠嘛，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以嘉義的用電就增加了，我們當然是樂觀其成，因為是我們在爭取的，拜託在用電方面你要多支持。你們非常重要，國家的重要政策發展都是你們在主導嘛，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你一方面要讓用電是無虞的，另一方面，我要很清楚，你們說要瞭解的是，國發會應該要做一個評估，例如說，你們的主委是AI專家，那麼在AI方面可能會用掉多少電？在發展的同時，需要多少電？那半導體需要多少電？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：兩個禮拜內評估一下今年到未來的一年內可能用掉多少電，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是特別針對AI嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：針對AI跟半導體……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其他的需要電動化的？"],["張委員啓楷：這兩個現在用電最多。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：半導體跟AI？"],["張委員啓楷：半導體跟AI。當然也有重疊的地方，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們目前還沒做評估報告嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是有做相關的評估，因為半導體產業其實在臺灣已經很久了，只是現在因為有一些新設的廠，所以會有新的用電需求，我覺得這些新的用電需求都是在經濟部的掌握之中，因為設廠都有一定的完成期限，這個都會在我們需要用電的評估當中。"],["張委員啓楷：現在很多人在幫我們國家的經濟加油，在很樂觀的狀況之下，是有些擔心的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在整體的能源政策跟整個能源的結構，你去看，最近這八年來蔡政府非常極力去推再生能源，那現在賴政府上來了，我就看了一下過去八年的再生能源，老實講，這八年只有成長了多少？4.8%，已經那麼努力的狀況下，只成長4.8%，那你去做個對比，今天的消息是4月份用電就成長了6%，6%當然比4.8%多嘛，對不對？那又有一個危機出現，7月27日核電3.5%就不見了，這是不是簡單的數學？成長6%，努力八年，再生能源要補上去的只有4.8%，結果又有3.5%的核能要不見了，用這麼簡單的數學來算，那怎麼辦？電力會不夠啊，要怎麼辦？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，第一個就是綠電起步比較困難，可是綠電有既定的要達到的裝置容量目標，我們會確實達成。剛才你講到核電，假設核電沒有延役的話，中間要補充電力，我們是用天然氣，就是用減煤、增氣、衝綠電的方式來因應，我們政府都有一些全盤的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：副主委，你說衝綠電，八年前時的再生能源，綠電占5.1%，衝了八年，現在9.9%，蔡政府已經那麼努力了，才成長了4.8%，我拿今天的新聞來做對比，今年4月份光是產業的用電就增加6%，已經追不上去了。我今天跟你講的都是非常殘酷的事實，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以7月27日是不是要討論一下核三廠的一號機真的要停嗎？包括未來的核電是不是真的要停下來？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有關於這個議題，之前我們的龔前主委也有提到，這個議題會尋求全民的共識，然後再做後續的一些決定。"],["張委員啓楷：我另外問一個問題，你們國發會去年剛核准643億的經費，去打造2030年的電動化公車，對不對？結果現在出現兩個問題了，現在一年的耗電，據我統計，差不多要7億8,300萬度，現在電到底夠不夠？我們剛剛討論的也是AI的用電、半導體的用電，現在電動車也要用電了，一年要7億8,300萬度，電到底夠不夠用？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，電動車是我們十二項核心戰略產業裡面運輸這一塊，主責的單位是交通部、經濟部等相關部會。當然充電樁的裝置是非常重要的，我們絕對不會允許有電動車卻沒有充電場，也不能充電，這是我們不允許會發生的"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你說，這個問題馬上就發生了，現在很多地方連充電場都沒有，怎麼充電？一方面是可能有電沒有車，一方面是有車，可能也有電，但連充電場都沒有，連臺北市這個首善之都，現在充電場都找不到，這要如何解決？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，所以後面的部分我們會全力衝刺，去裝置充電場。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣好不好？我們很理性科學地問政。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以幾個東西請你一定要注意，而且要給我資料，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，剛剛講的AI跟半導體未來一年可能會增加多少用電，需要多少電，你們要有一個預估。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：不只評估，你要有一個調查報告。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你兩個禮拜給我，OK不OK？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該可以。"],["張委員啓楷：應該可以，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：好。第二個，電動車現在很明顯的問題就是沒有充電場，你們要趕快去做，可能要做個協調，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道臺北市政府也很緊張，也出來講，臺中市政府都出來講，你們就去幫忙。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：要去幫忙，怎麼幫忙？也請你兩個禮拜後給我一個報告，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：充電場的部分可不可以一個月後給報告？因為我們還要洽其他相關的部會，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：好。謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：OK，好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","好，接下來，我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.340343750000002,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.997218750000002,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.722843750000003,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.80284375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.70534375,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.02971875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.98221875,"end":44.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.049093750000004,"end":49.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.21721875,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.81596875,"end":52.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.001593750000005,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.45659375,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":62.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.72971875,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.96159375,"end":68.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.65721875,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.57659375,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.24284375,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.58846875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.15659375,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.19034375000001,"end":87.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":89.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.05909375,"end":90.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.62846875000001,"end":96.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.79221875,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.06221875,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.63971875,"end":100.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.67346875000001,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.91784375,"end":103.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.37159375,"end":120.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.75909375,"end":120.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.85596875,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.10909375000001,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.29471875,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.39534375000001,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.86346875000001,"end":127.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.03596875,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.35221875000002,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.38534375,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.76409375,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.89846875,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.56909375,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.75034375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.07096875000002,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.98221875000002,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.16721875000002,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.84534375,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.06471875,"end":163.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.61721875,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.60846875000001,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.57846875,"end":169.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.56971875000002,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.58659375000002,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.52721875,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.99471875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.55284375000002,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.81346875000003,"end":204.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.55971875,"end":208.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.96846875,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.16596875000002,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.78159375,"end":219.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.01346875000002,"end":221.63346875000002},{"s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二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":379,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:23:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:17:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":590,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有地政司王司長。"],["主席：請地政司王司長。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我現在給你看一張圖，這個圖就是我們常常都會看到一些房子，它前面可能有鐵皮圍籬或者是家門口被立了電線桿，基本上這樣的狀況都會造成很多產權上的糾紛，這個產權糾紛就如同我早上在做提案說明的時候提到的，很多狀況是來自於因為它是無人繼承的不動產，而這無人繼承的不動產，只要經過十五年沒有繼承人去申請繼承登記的話，就會被國有財產署公開標售。針對公開標售，依現在的規定，它是會公告在公所或者是公告在村里，這樣公告的話，常常會讓鄰地所有權人沒有辦法查知原來他們家前面的土地要被拍賣了。尤其鄉下地方很多過去本來是計畫道路，但是計畫道路沒有開發，就變成他的房子一直窩在計畫道路的後面，而這個計畫道路有可能還是屬於私人的，一旦發生繼承的狀況，公開標售出去之後，就造成整排房子的前面都因為計畫道路被第三人標走了，然後這個第三人就用好幾倍的價格……甚至我有聽過開出超過五倍的價格，要求把這一塊土地前面的那部分買回去，所以就造成很多人因此而受傷，也因此我才會提案，希望如何改變這樣的狀況呢？其實我們只要落實通知義務，我們只要告知鄰地所有權人這塊地要被拍賣了，然後讓他趕快去做自身權利的評估。我想要請教次長，對於我剛剛這樣的說明，因為我看到你們今天是認為鄰地所有權人並不是優先購買權人，但是我今天並不是為了他有沒有優先購買權，我只是要讓他知道他周邊的土地會被拍賣的這個事實，好讓他可以預先瞭解他自己未來可能會遭遇狀況，以及他是否要在拍賣的程序中出手。這個是我的建議，我想請教次長對我這樣的修法有什麼看法？"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員的垂詢，本部基於權責，由地政司跟相關的權責單位，我們都研議過。事實上，我也承認委員所提的這個狀況，的確是在一定程序上我們有看過類似的案例，但是我們可能比較期待的是，本部會加強我們相關的行政作為，就是透過行政作為的方式，針對這個土地，因為我們現在有公告三個月等等這些程序，我們如何在這個程序上面去強化我們應作為的事項，特別是在地方公所這邊我們請它們去協作。我也跟委員報告，現實的狀況是如果我們連同毗鄰地的所有人都要立法通知的話，在行政負擔上面真的會引起很大的壓力。但是委員所告知的這個事情的確是民怨，我很瞭解，我們期待是不是在下午協商的時候，再進一步跟委員討論我們如何再強化行政上面的作為？"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，因為我剛剛有聽王美惠委員稍微跟我分析，他說這個如果是在都市的大樓的話，它其中一個持分、一個部分被拍賣，如果要通知毗鄰地所有權人，那個通知會沒完沒了，涵攝的效力又太大。我剛剛也有稍微思考一下，我們可以把它限縮在如果是整個地號拍賣的話，才必須通知，我們把它做一個範圍性的限縮，就是整塊地賣出去，那麼才要通知毗鄰地所有權人；如果這塊地只有我的持分被拍賣，那就不用再這樣履行，就是我們把它的層次做一個區別。如果整塊地拍賣出去，它一定會影響到周邊的人，周邊的人是否有能力去標是個未知數，但是我們至少讓他知道會有這樣的狀況，如果真的發生的時候，我覺得應該要減少民怨，大家會覺得政府知道這個問題所在，同時政府也儘量去協助、去避免──這些毗鄰地的人因為沒有被通知，然後他受到傷害的時候，甚至會去公所提起訴訟，後續的狀況會衍生一堆。以上是我的建議，我希望下午進行條文討論的時候，我們可以提出有效的解決方式，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：本部感謝委員的提案，委員所有的建議，其實對於解決土地的民瘼以及民怨非常的重要，我們下午的時候會積極跟委員再做溝通，我們看如何從不同的作為上面，特別是行政作為上去強化這件事情，我們也會跟國產署合作，讓這件事情不要造成民怨。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：再次感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢。","下一位請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在。","請林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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«土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案»案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":291.786,"end":292.166,"text":"則不予審查委員"},{"start":309.631,"end":324.343,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案案案﹚蔡易餘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案案﹚蔡易餘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案﹚蔡易餘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案﹚蔡易餘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案﹚蔡易餘等17人擬具:「土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案案案﹚蔡易餘等17人擬"},{"start":330.328,"end":332.009,"text":"則不予審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具 «土地法第十四條之一條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":348.14,"end":373.178,"text":"有效的可以解決這樣的方式,好不好?本部感謝委員的提案委員所有的建議其實對於解決土地的明末其實還有那個民怨非常的重要那我們下午的時候會積極跟委員在做溝通我們看如何從不同的作為上面特別行政作為上去強化這件事情我們也會跟國產署這邊合作讓這件事情真的不要造成民怨好,謝謝我們蔡易餘委員的執行,謝謝"},{"start":377.703,"end":378.387,"text":"下一位我們楊瓊玉"}]}},{"id":"152805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d14303701378bafc9c1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d20179fd04db1c8d0d59d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:07:58 - 11:16:52","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":534,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:16:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:07:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩請董次長。"],["主席：好，請董次長。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。次長新上任，有很多業務的推行還要一些時間，所以剛開始的時候，我可能會把一些基本的態度跟政策方向，一方面就教於次長，一方面也希望可以瞭解賴清德總統新內閣的想法。賴清德總統在就職演說的時候提到有關於社會住宅的部分要延續、要擴大，我的理解，次長是承接花敬群前次長的職位，對吧？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為在整個競選的過程當中，賴清德總統提到百萬社宅，當然，這可能是一個過度簡化的說法，我如果進一步具體來看，應該是整理出來的這張表格的樣子，包租代管17萬戶，興建13萬戶，租金補貼不少於10萬戶，這樣子加起來大概可以有40萬戶，是這樣嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！也就是說跟蔡英文總統的包租代管8萬戶、興建12萬戶、租金補貼40萬戶，加起來60萬戶，兩者加起來會有100萬戶，是不是？"],["董次長建宏：對，我們希望能夠儘力達到這個目標。"],["黃委員國昌：對，當然啦！我覺得願意蓋社會住宅就是好事，願意積極去蓋就是好事，有的時候開出來的目標，有很多現實上的因素未必能夠達成，我相信大部分民眾都能夠理解，但在實踐這個政見或者政策的過程當中，我覺得比較實事求是的來看這些數字，而不是用政見式或者開支票式的方式來看這些數字，這樣可能對於我們實現居住正義的價值會更有意義，相信次長應該也可以認同吧？"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員的指教，我們會努力去達到這些目標，因為政府有提供一個合理安全的住宅，其實是國人的期望。"],["黃委員國昌：我接下來要說的，不要把它聽成是我在吐槽蔡英文總統，我基本上沒這個意思，因為每一任總統、每一任部長、每一任次長，基本上都有他在這個職位上應該承擔的責任，但我覺得新的政府應該要在這個基礎上面記取過去的教訓，才有辦法、有智慧的展望未來。","我為什麼這樣子說？接下來我要帶次長一起看，因為你承接花敬群次長的職位。去年賴清德總統在競選總統的過程當中，接受提問：有關社會住宅興建12萬戶達標了嗎？他的回答是我們等到520再看興建跟完成發包的有沒有到12萬戶。次長，就你的瞭解，有到12萬戶嗎？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，截至今年4月底為止，我們直接興建的社會住宅發包大概已經達到十萬六百多戶，今年年底可望達到12萬戶。"],["黃委員國昌：你看的是我看的這張表嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你那個數字是怎麼加的，可以說明一下嗎？因為我剛剛聽到你說4月30日是10萬戶，我有點驚訝！"],["董次長建宏：我們基本上是以那個……"],["黃委員國昌：目前既有、新完工、興建中、已決標待開工的小計是5萬2,845戶，這應該沒錯吧？"],["董次長建宏：我們大概在最後的小計部分有10萬戶，這是包含既有、新完工，還有興建中跟決標待興建的。"],["黃委員國昌：你是把地方加進去欸！但請你看中央的部分，中央那一欄是多少？是21,913吧、是52,845吧，你怎麼會把地方的加進去呢？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，相關的社宅，從之前的政策開始，都是中央補助地方興建，有相關的補助款。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你所謂的達標，不是指中央直接興建，是中央加地方，是嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，對，是中央和地方……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。第二個，由中央直接興建的數字，其實已經完工的4,672戶中，有2,907戶是從林口世大運移過來的，這個沒有錯嘛！這個不是住都中心自己蓋的。第二個，有1,173戶是從台糖公營學苑過來的，這也不是住都中心自己蓋的，所以目前已完工的，大概有三類，第一個是林口世大運，第二個從台糖來的，第三個大概是跟人家一起合建而分到的戶數，我的理解應該沒有錯啦！目前……"],["董次長建宏：台糖的部分我們有補助。"],["黃委員國昌：是，目前興建中的部分，大概是這個列表。其實我今天質詢只是希望跟次長講，居住正義跟社會住宅這個政見跟政策，事實上，是非常多年輕世代非常重視的事情。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個部分，我希望能夠務實的看現在的狀態，非常務實的看現在的狀態，這樣我們才能在4年以後、8年以後達標。請你看一下上面有一些完工的日期，很多是預定在今年的5月31號，這個是我最新截圖下來的，應該沒有錯，有看到嗎？像江翠好室、懷石好室、玫瑰好室，對嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望這個網站上的資訊要忠實、客觀，我為什麼這樣說？來！我很快show給次長看，這個是江翠好室，預定5月31號完工，但昨天的狀態，照片長這個樣子，這是昨天我請同仁去拍的，這上面貼的綠色告示牌是施工現場公告的預定完工日期，其實是在2027年4月5號，這張是昨天現場拍的照片；懷石好室本來也是預定5月31號完工，這是昨天現場的照片，要到2026年8月29號完工；第三個是玫瑰好室，預定5月31號完工，這也是昨天的照片，上面的日期是2027年4月19號。或許這些告示牌寫得比較悲觀一點，實際的狀況，我能夠取得最updated的資訊，大概就是去現場看，以及看它的施工告示牌，我希望內政部在做這些社宅時，實際狀況的公告要符合現實的狀況，如果沒有符合現實的狀況，其實沒有意義啊！因為大家去看說今年5月底要完工了，但跑去現場看其實可能離完工還有好長一段距離。我必須說這不是你的責任，因為你520才上任，這個可能是前面殘留下來的問題。但是既然您上來了，新政府新的氣象，我希望未來有關於社會住宅忠實數據呈現這個部分能夠做好，可以嗎？"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員的指教，我們會跟住都中心聯繫，確認相關的數字跟時間。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅召委不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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"第三個大概是跟人家一起重新合建分道的護屋宿。我理解應該沒有錯啦。目前新建中的部分大概是這個列表。那我其實今天質詢只是希望跟市長講居住正義跟社會住宅的這個政見跟政策非常多年輕的世代"},{"start":380.262,"end":404.472,"text":"事實上是大家非常重視的事情。第二個部分我希望能夠務實地看現在的狀態。非常務實地看現在的狀態。這樣子我們希望4年以後、8年以後能夠達標。我看的主席不好意思最後30秒就結束。您看一下上面有一些完工的日期預定是在今年的5月31日、5月31日、5月31日。"},{"start":409.122,"end":437.294,"text":"這個是我最新截圖下來的應該沒有錯啦有看到嗎?像江翠好事、懷石好事、玫瑰好事對嗎?那我希望這個網站上面的資訊齁要能夠忠實客觀我為什麼這樣說呢?來我很快秀這個是江翠好事5月31日昨天的狀態照片長這個樣子這個是昨天我請同仁去拍的齁"},{"start":438.905,"end":464.053,"text":"那他上面貼的這個綠色的施工現場的公告預定完工的日期其實是在2027年的4月5號這也是昨天現場拍的照片懷石好市也是本來預定5月31號這個是昨天現場的照片要到2026年的8月29號第三個是玫瑰好市預定5月31號這也是昨天的照片"},{"start":465.228,"end":489.607,"text":"上面的是2027年4月19日或許這個告示牌寫得比較悲觀一點實際的狀況我大概能夠取得最update的資訊就是去現場看以及他的施工告示牌那我希望我們的內政部在做這些涉財實際狀況的公告要符合現實的狀況因為如果沒有符合現實的狀況其實沒有意義"},{"start":491.989,"end":502.183,"text":"因為大家去看說欸今年5月不要完工了啊跑去現場看其實可能離完工還有好長一段距離我必須要說齁這不是你的責任"},{"start":503.12,"end":529.593,"text":"因為你520才上任那這個是可能前面殘留下來的問題但是既然您上來了新政府、新的氣象我希望說未來有關社會住宅忠實數據的呈現這個部分希望能夠可以做好,可以嗎?好,感謝委員的指教我們會跟住宅中心聯繫確認相關的數字跟時間好,謝謝好,謝謝黃國昌委員的指教那下一位我們"}]}},{"id":"152804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dca3dbb2b8142b88288b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d201768c8e8e800dff9935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：我這個會期初次來到財委會，最重要的原因，我給自己一個很簡單的目標，就是我希望這個會期能夠讓我們原住民族人的原保地可以拿到銀行申貸，就這麼簡單的一個理由。事實上，剛才很多人都談到融資公司，其實融資公司在我們原鄉對族人所造成的影響是更嚴重的，因為它是很有吸引力的，我們透過一頁式網站也好，任何的廣告，連一個手機都能借錢、連一個壞掉的摩托車都可以借錢，這對急的人來講是非常有誘因的。但是它也變成債務的淵藪，所以融資公司在我們原鄉很多人叫做開當鋪，我們也有很多原住民青年當下線開當鋪，它是萬物皆可貸，所以它可怕的其實不僅僅是高利率的問題，它還可以自訂手續費，造成一個越來越多人加入的好生意。","我在這邊會關心這個就是因為一般人講有土斯有財，但是我們原住民就被人家笑窮得只剩下土地，因為正常的貸款管道我們不得其門而入，所以就只有被逼到地下化，所以在這兩個月，我在財委會也問過金管會和財政部，內政部、農業部、原民會來到這裡，我都會來關心關於原保地申貸的問題，我也開過原保地鑑價機制銀行放貸方案的研商會議。其實我的訴求很簡單，就是我希望各部會分工，像金管會、財政部，我就希望提供一個公股銀行的評鑑誘因；像農業部，我就會希望它的農業金庫和各地農會能夠增設原保地貸款業務的窗口；內政部這邊，我也希望地政司的地價科可以協助原保地的鑑價；原民會就提供原保地貸款的信用保證。","我要跟主委說，其實內政部在5月有回函給我，它們說會協助請估價師公會研擬準則；農業金庫也回函了，積極配合辦理原住民貸款業務；原民會也回函說它們已經研擬了原保地信保作業要點草案；財政部也回函說會協請公股銀行配合內政部辦理估價。你們金管會也回函了，上次黃天牧主委也說了，它已經發函督促各個銀行落實公平待客原則、落實普惠金融政策，也在推動修正金融評鑑的規定，如果願意承作原保地的貸款業務，會給予加分，並且加強宣導。另外建議內政部要做實價登錄，增加原保地交易資訊，建議原民會要去做原保地的信用保證，提高銀行的意願。我也要跟主委說明，你們建議內政部實價登錄的部分，它們也回函已經做了，原民會的信保剛才有提了，也已經在研擬草案了。現在我要請教主委，各部會都已經釋出了正面的回應，金管會除了ESG評鑑加分的制度，主委是否有其他可以積極促成的解方？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個可否容許我請銀行局局長跟委員說明？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["主席：請莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，剛剛已經特別提到ESG的評分，因為今年的評分指標已經進來了，我們已經仔細去檢視裡面的評分指標是可以放進去的，更長期的指標，我們也會督促評鑑的小組把更長期的指標列進去，讓原保地的放款可以放進去，增加多元化的指標。至於還有沒有其他積極促成的解方，是不是可以讓我們來思考一下，因為目前我們有多項的政策性放款，例如中小企業放款或六大核心產業的放款，我們也來研議看看有沒有可能把它放進去。還有就是各金融機構增設分支機構的時候，我們會看它政策的配合度，給它一些加分的項目，我們也可以來思考是不是針對原住民放款可以放到加分的項目裡面。以上報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝局長，也謝謝主委，這樣聽起來確實很友善、很積極。但是我這邊還有一個小小的請求，就是我們真的走進銀行的時候，其實還有一個小障礙，就是我們所謂的5P原則。我第一次質詢金管會的時候有提到，在國外都有一些消除歧視、消除刻板印象的政策，你應該很清楚。簡單講，這5P其實很容易落入刻板印象，我光是講借款人是原住民，那個分數就很低了，對不對？然後你提到資金用途做什麼、還款來源，這個分數都很低，債權的保障、甚至授信的展望，假設他是為了去做小型露營場，現在小型露營場已經合法化，可是他想要做的時候會面臨要弄一些污水處理，會被要求要做水保設施，他沒有資金啊！他想要去貸款，這時候銀行端可能就不理解他的授信的展望是什麼。","所以我要談的是現在金管會、各部會好事就做盡，治標也治本，主委也是新上任勇於任事。我在想原住民的財務體質要改善，這是社會結構的問題，不能夠單純歸咎個人的問題，我希望政府一同來承擔，我也希望我們原住民族有一天可以不再仰賴政策。所以在這邊我要跟主委講一下，其實我在109年7月，也就是疫情最嚴峻的時候，我有召開一個協調會，因為當時我們紓困貸款原住民看得到吃不到，他沒有信用，所以那時候我有請原民會和聯輔基金會幫忙做清償債務的部分。原民會很好，當時金管會其實也有幫忙，有提供金融輔導員獎勵金，每幫忙一個個案就給他獎勵金，我現在就是拜託主委是不是可以支持，就是比照法扶基金會，它們有一個定期定點下鄉的服務，配合活動它們就有一個帳棚，我希望跟原民會的金輔員合作，也能夠有公股銀行來合作，去做原住民族債務整合及清償的專案，我想這個部分對原住民很重要。","另外，現在我們政府，尤其是賴清德總統在臺南市政府的時候就在推族群主流化的政策，我想我們的原住民族教育也已經在前幾年修法，把對象改為全體國民，所以我們說這是全民原教。我們原住民族作為臺灣的一份子、作為臺灣這片土地的長子，所以在這部分，我希望金管會也能夠策進這些銀行，讓他們能夠作在職訓練，提升公股銀行從業人員對於原住民族的認識跟對各種原住民相關政策的認識，相信對於整個友善金融、普惠金融會有很大的幫助。請主委表示一下您的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於您提到這兩個，我們完全支持，只是前面那一項可不可以由原民會發動開會，而我們來參與？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，OK。謝謝主委，加油！謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝伍委員，謝謝主席。"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時32分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位質詢請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.51596875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.24534375,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.85284375,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.56159375,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.61221875,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.66284375,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":8.130968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.130968750000001,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.164718750000002,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.054718750000003,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.17971875,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.23409375,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.75284375,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.199718750000002,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.53721875,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.28784375,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.627218750000004,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.01471875,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.56909375000001,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.53471875000001,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.83784375,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.84909375000001,"end":91.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":89.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.13471875,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.56909375000001,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.82096875,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.28346875000001,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.49409375,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.19284375000001,"end":132.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.68534375000002,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.28409375,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.38409375,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.72534375,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.54659375,"end":243.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.43596875000003,"end":255.65346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.73784375000002,"end":270.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.81971875,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.73096875000005,"end":272.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.25409375000004,"end":277.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.33784375,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.59096875,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.62471875,"end":277.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.51909375,"end":279.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.69596875,"end":329.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.29159375,"end":353.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.66784375000003,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.54534375000003,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.71159375,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.53534375000004,"end":393.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.51784375,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.16721875,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.29784375,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.52534375000005,"end":406.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.80284375,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.35909375,"end":414.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.02096875,"end":418.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.66596875000005,"end":419.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.56034375,"end":434.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.42721875,"end":439.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.24909375000004,"end":4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end":549.346,"text":"我是希望說跟原民會的金服員合作也能夠有公股銀行來合作去做一個原住民族債務整合及清償的專案我想這個部分對我們原住民很重要另外就是現在我們政府尤其是賴清德總統他在台南市政府的時候他就在推族群主流化的政策"},{"start":550.43,"end":565.387,"text":"我想我們的原住民族教育也在前幾年已經修法把對象改為全體國民所以我們說這是全民原教我們原住民族作為臺灣的一份子作為臺灣這個土地的長子"},{"start":567.87,"end":597.047,"text":"我是希望說這個部分我們的金管會也能夠來策進我們的這些銀行他們能夠做一個在職的訓練提升我們的公股銀行的從業人員對於原住民族的一個認識跟各種原住民政策相關的認識我相信會對我們整個友善金融普惠金融會有很大的幫助那請主委來表示一下您的看法"},{"start":597.807,"end":598.428,"text":"休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"152803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d4954e50cf754c29c3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017debf3000fae568745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:11:10 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11:19:11","影片長度":"00:08:01","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":481,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:19:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:11:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時11分）謝謝主席，先請國發會。"],["主席：請國發會高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：高副主委好。面對延攬國際人才的競逐挑戰，因為各國都在搶人才，為了使優秀的外來人士能更友善、更便利歸化我國，我們也三讀通過了國籍法，放寬外國的高級專業人才申請歸化居留年限從五年放寬到二年，條件就是每年須有183日以上的合法居留事實繼續五年，放寬為繼續二年，或是曾經在我國領域內合法居留繼續五年以上就無須有183日以上合法居留的事實，來強化我們臺灣延攬優秀人才的誘因，今天本會也在討論外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條及第二十一條的修正，以及增列第二十一條之一的條文草案，本席其實是很支持的，就是以修讀學位居留期間來抵免應該是可行的，副主委您覺得外國專業人才以及外國專業特定人才所折抵的標準，是不是應該有不一樣？您的看法呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，現存的條文就有不一樣，我們這次的修正主要把折抵的年限，根據這兩個類別再行放寬、再行增加。"],["陳委員秀寳：本來就不一樣嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，本來就不一樣。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以說放寬的標準也會不一樣，那針對委員的提案，修讀碩士可折抵一年，學士可折抵二年，那您的看法呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：針對外國特定專業人才，我們是同意的，因為外國特定專業人才原來是博士只能折抵一年，碩士不能折抵，現在委員提案是博士二年、碩士一年，我們是同意的。"],["陳委員秀寳：針對專科副學士也可以折抵一年，這個有沒有科系跟專業的限縮？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們在一般專業人才方面，原來現行折抵年限是博士二年、碩士一年，委員的提案是希望博士二年，學士納到碩士裡面也可以折抵一年，有另外一個委員的建議是副學士以上，還有甚至學士是要按照他的就學年資，如果是四年就可以折抵二年，我們比較傾向是用博士二年，學士以上就是包含碩士是一年的這個方向來……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以您的看法？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不限科系。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，瞭解。外國專業人才延攬及僱用法在107年2月實施，而且在110年10月有修正，我們也進一步鬆綁對外國專業人士的工作居留的規定，並且優化租稅及社會保障等相關的權益。我這邊想請教，對於我們有成立了一個政策協商平臺以及臺灣就業金卡辦公室，我們也成立Talent Taiwan國際人才服務及延攬中心，我們希望設定110年到119年可以新增延攬的目標，其中包括外國專業人才有7萬，目前我們延攬的外國專業人才有多少？明年你們有設定多少人的目標？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們外國專業人才是包括特定跟一般專業人才，我們的特定專業人才到目前為止已經有到1萬4,000人了，一般專業人才是五萬六，我們有信心，而且我們也有責任，一定要達到這樣的目標。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實這樣的業務，對於提供這些國際人才不管是這些相關的協助、他們來臺申辦的程序，我們都一定要做好，因為我們希望國際的優秀人才能夠進得來、留得住，所以今天我們才會也針對委員所提的案子來討論，我們也希望以你們的專業，能夠在整個法規的修訂上，在可以的範圍之內，儘量提供這些人才更多的誘因。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我想請勞動部勞動力發展署的陳主秘。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主秘好。缺工一直是產業很關注的議題，少子化也會讓未來缺工的問題更嚴重，本席認為面對缺工的問題，如果只是想靠引進移工並不能有效的解決問題，如何提供協助，讓我們的青年順利就業，與缺工的企業來媒合，這個部分是我們應該要努力的。去年啟動的投資青年就業方案第二期有指出，青年投入住宿、餐飲業的比重明顯高於整體國人，投入製造業的比重明顯低於整體國人，對於製造業的缺工，請問你們用什麼樣的協助方案及對策？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，跟委員報告，這個缺工的部分，各個行業陸續都有這樣一個訊息，所以第一個，勞動部對於所有各行各業通通都適用的部分主要是透過就業媒合來做一些服務，但是像製造業，尤其是它製造的製程或者是它的時程有比較特別，讓國人投入的意願不是特別高，這個部分我們有所謂就業獎勵，鼓勵勞工朋友，包括青年朋友來投入這些比較辛苦、比較不大願意去參與的行業別，有這樣子的就業促進工具來做運用。"],["陳委員秀寳：就業獎勵的部分，我們的青年朋友都會知道嗎？你們用什麼管道去宣傳？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，我們目前對於青年服務的工作，第一個是他在校的時候，我們就結合學校，在他還沒畢業之前就做一些就業準備的工作。另外，我們本身勞動部也有青年職涯發展中心，以及我們各地的就業服務中心，這部分依然可以在他離校之後，持續來做青年的追蹤跟協助。"],["陳委員秀寳：這邊再請教，我們臺灣跟印度已經簽訂了勞工合作備忘錄，是我們臺灣睽違23年新增的一個移工來源國，勞動部這邊何時會正式公告印度是新增的移工來源國呢？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，跟委員報告，這個部分第一個，我們還是必須先尊重大院這邊對於這一個MOU內容審議的結果，才有可能繼續往下推展雙邊工作層級的會議，所以這個部分必須先以院裡面來做後續的處理。另外，在雙邊的工作層級會議當中，必須要討論引進的相關細節，包括引進的行業別、人數，以及相關作業的方式，到底是用直聘還是仲介雙軌等等，這裡面還有很多的討論尚未完成。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以很多細節都還沒有確定喔？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：對，這些完成後才會做公告。"],["陳委員秀寳：勞動部這次有規定說需先聘用本國勞工，有餘額才能聘移工。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以本席也希望產業不能因為低薪找不到人，就要用移工來補，必須以合理的薪資為前提。所以我也希望勞動部這邊應該要積極的開發中高齡、高齡、二度就業的婦女這種潛在的勞動力來因應缺工，也讓我們這些失業的人口有一個跟缺工企業媒合的機會。另外我再提醒，因為印度境內的族群比較複雜，光是語言就有二、三十種，以現在我們臺灣多數移工沒有母語翻譯的狀況，希望勞動部可以先因應未來對如果引進印度移工的翻譯問題，要先做好準備。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，謝謝委員以上的提醒，我們都會注意，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：以上，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員。","接下來我們請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.130968750000001,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.109718750000003,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.016593750000002,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.17971875,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.01909375,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.02596875,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.57284375,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.60659375,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.73284375,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.03534375000001,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.18721875,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.23784375000001,"end":107.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.91284375000001,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.24971875000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.86846875,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.03221875000001,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.12909375,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.16284375,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.75346875,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.78721875,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.27471875,"end":151.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.63596875000002,"end":156.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.81659375,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.57534375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.30096875,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.33846875,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.37221875,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.38909375,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.36346875,"end":168.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.44346875000002,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.30096875,"end":216.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.97596875000002,"end":217.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.26284375,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.76909375000002,"end":230.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.54346875000002,"end":232.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.66159375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.05784375000002,"end":233.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.64409375000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.96784375000001,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.04159375,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.63221875,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.89784375,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.98096875000005,"end":323.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.47409375,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.34221875000003,"end":356.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.38034375,"end":360.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.68346875000003,"end":380.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.35971875,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.16346875000005,"end":425.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.18409375000005,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.29346875000005,"end":428.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.35659375,"end":475.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.23096875000005,"end":477.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.45846875,"end":479.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.12909375000004,"end":479.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.28096875000006,"end":479.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.29784375,"end":479.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.39909375,"end":480.96846875000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.089,"text":"陳秀寳國發會"},{"start":19.076,"end":46.748,"text":"委員好高副主委好面對這個延攬國際人才這個競逐挑戰因為各國都在搶人才那為了使優秀的外來人士規劃我國更友善更便利呢我們也三讀通過了國籍法放寬外國的高級專業人才申請規劃的這個居留年限呢從五年放寬到兩年然後那個條件就是每年需要183日以上的合法居留事實繼續五年放寬為繼續兩年"},{"start":48.689,"end":76.089,"text":"或是曾經在我國領域內合法居留繼續五年以上呢就無需有183日以上合法居留的事實來強化我們台灣延攬優秀人才的這個誘因喔那今天呢本會也在討論說外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條及二十一條的修正以及增列第二十一條之一的條文草案那本席是其實是很支持的就是說以修讀學位居留期間來抵免應該是可行的那"},{"start":78.45,"end":107.111,"text":"副主委這邊您覺得說外國專業人才以及外國專業特定人才所折抵的標準是不是應該有不一樣?您的看法呢?是,現存的條文就有不一樣。那我們這次的修正主要把折抵的連線根據這兩個類別再行放寬,再行增加。本來就不一樣嘛,所以說放寬的標準也會不一樣。那針對委員的提案說修讀碩士可折抵一年,學士可折抵兩年,那您的看法呢?"},{"start":108.533,"end":126.81,"text":"針對那個外國特定專業人才我們是同意的因為我外國特定專業人才原來是博士只能折抵一年碩士不能折抵那現在委員提案是兩年博士兩年碩士一年我們是同意的那針對呢專科副學士也可以折抵一年這個有沒有科系跟專業的限縮"},{"start":128.211,"end":128.231,"text":"陳秀寳"},{"start":151.724,"end":154.165,"text":"外國專業人才延攬及僱用法我們在107年的2月實施,而且在110年10月有修正。我們也進一步的鬆綁對外國專業人士的工作拘留,"},{"start":181.011,"end":181.051,"text":"﹚陳秀寳﹚陳秀寳﹚"},{"start":206.403,"end":233.559,"text":"的這個目標呢其中包括外國專業人才有7萬那目前我們延攬的專業外國專業人才有多少明年你們設定有多少人的目標嗯好那我們外國專業人才是包括特定跟一般專業人才那我們目前的特定專業人才到目前為止已經有到14000人了好那專業一般專業人才呢56000就是好OK"},{"start":234.72,"end":239.343,"text":"對,那我們有信心啦,而且我們也有責任一定要達到這樣的目標。其實這樣的業務齁,其實為提供我們這些國際人才的這些不管是相關的協助,他們來台申辦的程序,這些相關的協助我們都一定要做齁,因為我們希望說國際的優秀人才能夠進來留得住。"},{"start":256.674,"end":256.694,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":283.086,"end":299.578,"text":"委員好主委好缺工一直是產業很關注的議題那少子化也會讓未來缺工的問題更嚴重本席認為說面對缺工的問題如果只是想靠嚴禁移工並不能有效的解決問題如何提供"},{"start":299.918,"end":299.938,"text":"﹚陳秀寳﹚"},{"start":323.579,"end":349.812,"text":"是。跟委員報告齁,這個缺工的部分各個行業陸續都有這樣的一個訊息。那所以勞動部這邊第一個對於所有各行各業通通都適用的部分是主要是透過就業媒合來做一些服務。但是像製造業尤其它只是它的一個製造的一個製程或者它的一個時程有比較特別而讓國人投入的意願不是特別高的部分。這個部分我們有所謂的就業獎勵鼓勵勞工朋友包括青年朋友投入這些比較辛苦比較"},{"start":350.612,"end":352.013,"text":" ﹝延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案案﹞"},{"start":380.704,"end":405.373,"text":"在這邊再請教我們台灣跟印度已經簽訂了勞工合作備忘錄是我們台灣睽違23年來新增的一個移工來源國那勞動部這邊何時會公告正式公告印度是新增的移工來源國呢是跟委員報告這個部分第一個我們還是必須先尊重大院這邊對於這一個MLU的內容的一個審議的一個結果才有可能繼續往下推展雙邊的工作的一個層級的會議"},{"start":406.713,"end":406.733,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":424.309,"end":424.329,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":441.77,"end":445.272,"text":"所以說我也希望說勞動部這邊應該要積極的開發中高齡高齡二度就業的婦女在這種潛在的勞動力來因應缺工也讓我們這些失業的人口他們有一個就是跟那個缺工企業媒合的機會另外再提醒因為印度境內的這個族群比較複雜光是語言就有二三十種以現在我們台灣多數移工沒有母語翻譯的狀況"},{"start":467.526,"end":478.299,"text":"希望勞動部可以先因應就是說未來對如果引進印度移工的這個翻譯的問題要先做好準備。是,謝謝委員以上的提醒我們都會注意。以上謝謝主席,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d4dfa784c0e1c58cd49cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d2017ee2905264f656d115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:09:32 - 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這個環境部長有請 請 噢 彭部長部長 早安喔 這個恭喜上任 那今天做一下大方向的政策對話 我們等一下投影片第一個我想要問喔 這個淨零碳排喔 是不是新政府重大的施政目標"},{"start":36.328,"end":64.604,"text":"這當然是這是一個延續型的而且是全球的目標我們都應該積極往那個方向走好那以這個國內的各生產單位或者是各個碳排大戶而言喔電廠火力電廠是不是碳排大戶當然是當然是喔有沒有掌握到火力電廠的碳排佔全台灣的百分比跟相關的一些數字如果以台電的話大概佔了一億噸的排碳量一億噸全國的總量是多少"},{"start":65.825,"end":83.417,"text":"我們全國所有的大概是兩億七千多萬噸全國但是不是只有火力發電我知道那就是含產業嗎以及任何跟相關的部長不錯概念蠻好的數字這個稱讚一下所以你講只有台電光台電的電廠就佔了一億噸的碳排"},{"start":83.777,"end":97.792,"text":"但是他其實是我們用的店所以是這個的產業我知道這是難免的事情對不對那你們有沒有包含其他的民營電廠的碳排當然有當然有在裡面所以加起來大概是我實際數字我在跟委員報告但是整個大概是2億6、2億7左右"},{"start":99.634,"end":114.659,"text":"我意思說台電是台電的電廠還是韓民營電廠是一億台電台電所以如果還加上了民營電廠的碳排可能會更多對不對更多一些OK好這個那我要再問齁能源政策未來我們在討論能源政策的時候環境部有沒有角色"},{"start":116.102,"end":133.209,"text":"也跟委員報告我自己我認為是我要有角色因為我必須遵守環境基本法各項的議題那當然啦這個當然這個就是因為環境的能源的政策其實不是我決定的是一個內閣的決定的所以我很樂意參與我們內閣的相關的討論"},{"start":135.11,"end":157.912,"text":"我聽到部長非常積極地說我應該要有角色沒錯部長當然應該要有角色這個本席是來自桃園的立法委員這我要幫我選區的鄉親聲聲冤你可以在這張地圖上看到叫做桃園火力發電地圖它裡面當然不純然都是台電的火力發電廠很多是民營的電廠很多是氣電共生但是我想這些我剛剛特別會問部長"},{"start":159.213,"end":185.115,"text":"這些台電以外的電廠是不是也是碳排大戶其實我想答案是肯定的因為從剛剛的數據的問答裡面可以很清楚的知道全國的總碳排量兩億六千兩億兩億多噸對不對電廠佔將近一半所以說如何在能源政策上務實可行的去做調整其實恐怕才是最有效而且快速的達成淨零碳排目標的有效路徑所以本期希望"},{"start":186.075,"end":202.183,"text":"這個環境部長在未來的內閣裡面在能源政策的討論裡面不只要有角色而且要有比較大的角色因為即便能源政策由經濟部來主導但是經濟發展現在也跟全世界近鄰碳排的這樣子的一個大的趨勢高度相關今天因為時間有限"},{"start":203.624,"end":230.641,"text":"我相信未來也有很多關於探權、探費等等的專案報告那個時候我們再來針對這件事情來做討論但那件事情其實跟經濟也有關所以說在討論未來的內閣的施政方向的時候環境部的角色其實是越來越吃重的所以我希望在能源政策調整的時候環境部長要積極的據理力爭從淨零碳排這樣子的一個角度去大膽的建議我們的新內閣務實的檢討現行的能源政策這是我給部長的第一個期許也給部長的第一個建議"},{"start":231.341,"end":252.495,"text":"第二個建議是除了總體的方向調整之外我們也希望落實區域的正義啊因為你可以看到這張電廠這張地圖其實北台灣整個北台灣大部分的發電重任其實是落在桃園喔那尤其是本期的選區龜山跟蘆竹分別有一座民營電廠正在偷偷摸摸的進行擴建"},{"start":254.757,"end":273.738,"text":"這件事情我覺得按現行的狀況來說我桃園的環境負載其實就已經非常高當然我們桃園是工業重鎮這我們理解但工業重鎮難道沒有污染嗎其實就有嘛本身現行的狀況來說環境負載對桃園人來說就是沉重負擔如果能源政策繼續這樣子做然後這些既有的電廠還紛紛擴建的話"},{"start":275.64,"end":301.406,"text":"如果我作為選區的立法委員我沒有辦法具體力爭我沒有辦法表達反對的立場那我有愧於這個支持我的鄉親那當然我們希望把格局拉高因為這不是只是我個人的選區利益也不是只是我選區鄉親的利益而是這一件事情已經不再是桃園的事情它不只是桃園的事它也是全國面對淨零碳排的重大危機我不希望這些電廠要被迫擴建然後增加更多的碳排增加更多的環境負載"},{"start":302.026,"end":317.291,"text":"所以我高度的期待環境部長在未來能源政策的討論裡面要有非常重要的角色不只是要為這個選區的環境正義發聲也要為淨零碳排來發聲這是我希望部長把這件事當一回事來幫我們距離來主張第二個"},{"start":319.472,"end":348.476,"text":"今天我們還除了討論空氣以外噪音的汙染也是本席非常關心的一個題目最近我們大家都在討論這個噪音車的管制那最近也有修法的這些方向從明天開始大概就是以抓改為主如果你改管沒有經過原廠也就是環境部的這樣一個認證機制可以立刻來開罰這樣子當然可以有助於提升取締的效率但是我也要提醒環境部因為以後抓改就很方便警察這個有微星電腦直接檢驗就可以直接開罰"},{"start":349.276,"end":376.249,"text":"當然提升開發效率有效嚇阻這個方向本席同意但是我擔心的是會不會未來我們針對改管這件事情你去取締之後會不會該偵測噪音的我們就不做了都丟給警察處理了我要提醒的是不是所有的改管都會有噪音有些噪音並不一定來自於改管的問題所以我要求環境部在這個地方的力道不能因為修法跟方向調整而有所降低也就是說該抓草的還是要抓"},{"start":376.949,"end":393.568,"text":"我們針對噢這個噪音取締的人力針對噪音科技執法的預算我希望還是可以看到一個上升趨勢去協助各地的地方政府來打擊這個噪音車的這個問題那未來我們本期也會提出噪音管制法的一些相關的修正希望環境部可以積極來配合"},{"start":394.329,"end":413.691,"text":"因為噪音車也是一個擾亂民生一個大的問題今天時間有限我們先就這兩個方向跟環境部長做政策對話期待未來有更多的機會深入的來討論交流也預祝這個部長新上任一切順利感謝謝謝謝謝委員我會保持委員的意見我會留留參考謝謝謝謝好謝謝牛煦庭委員"}]}},{"id":"152801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d8adb5971b21c31be49cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20174e85e9b120da1bd45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"10:59:31 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您好像少算了好幾位喔 因為拿那個我們現在是職員 職員加聘用 其實大概都300位上下啦 對對對沒錯 那部長您就是你從來沒有擔任過文官 那過去也沒有真正的在政府機關任職 而且呢就是說您有這麼多的理念要推動 你有沒有覺得說靠文官去執行才有辦法就是做出成績嗎"},{"start":150.127,"end":176.762,"text":"我跟我同事包含的司處長我就覺得他們非常優秀而且他們的經驗其實有時候我覺得遠超於我你剛剛說跟誰一起我們各位的司處長在一起他們其實都非常的優秀有些甚至我的學長所以我其實跟他們工作非常的愉快那我未來呢會因為我來自民間跟他們想法一定會有一些不一樣那我們會慢慢慢慢的會進入一個新的合作的模式也請委員放心我說部長聽起來也蠻"},{"start":178.063,"end":193.148,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":193.368,"end":219.286,"text":"我相信大部分都可以跟您合作愉快配合得很好但是假如有有少數的文官在專業上沒有辦法跟上您那但是呢他們在法條上可能比你還熟悉那有可能不是有可能因為在過去也曾經發生過就是有可能就是說曾經誤導或者可能誤導部長甚至故意消極抗命"},{"start":220.387,"end":239.901,"text":"你不要樂觀過度這種現象會發生是有過的那或者是說在幾個月這個幾個月前升格的時候才剛升上去的這個機關首長自己呢對於自己的業務都還搞不清楚那面對這樣的問題部長你有能力去處理嗎"},{"start":241.827,"end":260.485,"text":"這個第一個是我當然必須要很好的去花時間去好好瞭解各個業務我也會逐步的拜訪我們的這個各個私塾的同仁去瞭解實際上我比較好奇是說你會維持文官的穩定還是說就大刀闊斧的在一定的時間之後進行必要的人事調整"},{"start":261.105,"end":276.454,"text":"我首先會了解我業務之後然後一段時間如果有一些職位的調動的話當然一定要必須公務員的方式來進行實際上的業務的狀況來再進行調度公務人員的就是說實際上業務執行的狀況還有表現來進行調度必要的時候"},{"start":282.818,"end":304.828,"text":"我想這樣的想法是對的啦那本席也強烈的建議部長就是你要先用到對的人你才有可能把這個事情做對做好所以不然呢就是很快你就會知道說為什麼很多的業務很難推動下去那本席也了解過您的這個經歷跟專業"},{"start":307.769,"end":333.922,"text":"環境部業務中可能的這個氣候氣候變遷署、碳費的徵收還有跟您過去這個氣象達人的業務是比較有關係的所以我要在這邊提醒你這個環管署過去叫做這個環境督察總隊裡面的人最多資源最豐富那涉及的補助跟地方的政府民意代表有很大的關聯那我希望這個業務部長"},{"start":336.623,"end":363.38,"text":"今天你第一次到立法院來那我也第一次跟您做非常良心的建議這個部分希望你能夠多留意特別秉持著沒有比較沒有傷害的原則好好的比較一下仔細看看過去升格以前的績效跟這個預算的執行還有在之後在比較升格為屬之後到底是這個業績是變好還是變差"},{"start":366.503,"end":390.805,"text":"這個是本席給部長的第一個功課好好的去比較一下那最後呢本席還想跟你分享就是從這個環境經濟學的角度切入碳費的問題是非常好那也希望說部長可以越快推動越好那這個是用這個誘因取代管制的這個做法也是很好的"},{"start":392.937,"end":414.288,"text":"因為我過去曾經質詢張子敬及薛部長希望你們能夠禁用經濟專業的人才開放高資等的職缺給他們讓他們為經濟誘因提出更多的配套方案但是目前好像沒有看到什麼成效"},{"start":417.37,"end":440.518,"text":"我所知道的這個政策工具除了說部長你有提出這個比如說補助、減稅、低利貸款以外還有這個全額獎金、降低保險費率還有放寬投資上限以及這個碳費減免等等措施但是我從來就沒有聽過環境部的官員包括"},{"start":441.418,"end":456.711,"text":"部長跟署長在立法院跟委員討論從來沒有聽過所以呢我也曾經說希望你們可以比照這個地球憲章的精神呢可以多多運用原住民的智慧還有在地的這個"},{"start":457.432,"end":457.452,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":473.918,"end":496.157,"text":"謝謝委員的建議,你剛才提到幾個部分關於所謂的經濟的部分因為其實國家環境研究院我聊上任之後才發現他不是所謂的行政法人人力方面他們也非常的缺,那他也跟我反映了所以我這個部分我會想辦法來爭取甚至有一些調整的空間所以未來有可能往這個行政法人的方向"},{"start":496.737,"end":524.909,"text":"目前我所知道的是有一些好的這個例如說有一些研究院更好的我們是希望往更好的方式去邁進我會努力啦那另外一個委員提到這個原住民其實原住民我參加這個氣候會議那麼多次都有原住民的角色在裡面所以未來也希望如果我去參加各種大型的會議委員也可以跟我們對我相信未來你在這個委員會常常看到我你就還是你就會想起原住民不會忘記了沒問題我哪一族的你知道嗎"},{"start":531.029,"end":542.897,"text":"我是北南族。我們這一族就是有張惠妹,然後有胡德夫,有紀小軍,有這個小陳建年。大陳建年是他的親戚,也是我的爸爸。"},{"start":545.358,"end":569.872,"text":"對,然後就是我們就是那個金曲歌王的長盛君這樣子你要記住這些好,沒問題好,那感覺今天跟你對談齁這個印象還不錯謝謝委員印象分數還不錯那我希望就是說你未來就是用你的能力跟實力來證明齁然後環保署這個去解決這個環保署以來的這個這個機弊成殼的問題啦齁"},{"start":574.355,"end":574.815,"text":"陳瑩委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d4a84b740545004896fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017686694a71afc77eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:00:06 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11:15:42","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":936,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:15:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:00:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安，先謝謝我從小讀書時的偶像小野部長，願意接下這個非常辛苦的工作。在這之前，我想先送部長一本書，它已經絕版了，所以部長一定要好好保存。","這本書的書名就叫做《如果我是文化部長》，因為你現在已經是文化部長了，所以你可以把「如果」這兩個字蓋掉，你就是文化部長了。你知道這本書多棒嗎？它是一本法國出版，後來翻譯成臺灣中文的童書。你現在也是爺爺了，我相信你一定有跟你的孫子共讀。我想要分享這本書的其中幾頁，讓部長知道您的責任有多麼重大。甚至您在我心目中所有部會重要的排名，絕對在前三名，就是這本書所要說的。","這本書裡面有一段話是這麼說的，就是我投影片上所顯示的「如果我是文化部長，我會盡力向我的同僚說明支持藝術和文化有多麼重要。他們也一定會用心地聽我說。但是，在表決預算的時候，他們肯定會宣稱有其他更重要與更緊急的項目得優先處理，比如說醫療、工程、經濟和國防。」","部長，這是您未來的處境，它裡面就談到了我們要認識建築、我們要認識戲劇、我們要認識各式各樣的文化藝術。其中有一個來自於部長您跟我都非常擅長的專業，叫做出版業，它說像是長篇小說、短篇小說集、詩集、論文集跟漫畫，全部都會變成禁書。我只截取了其中的一頁，也就是說當大家都不再認同文化工作的重要性，所有東西就會從這個世界上消失。","這本書等一下我會送給您，雖然它已經絕版了，但是我想要跟部長談一談，不管是所有剛剛委員問的很多很細緻的工作，或者是很多輿論的發酵，我相信這都會是您接下來非常困難而且重要的挑戰。所以我要再一次以讀者的身分，先謝謝部長願意承擔這一份非常艱困的工作。","下一頁是文化部的組織圖，我想部長應該已經了然於心。在過去一年當中，我們辦公室雖然只有遞補了一年的時間，但是我們花了很多力氣在跟文化部的非常多政策，跟相關的預算對話。其中還包含這個我覺得是最困難的，它應該是所謂的深水區，水很深或是在很深的地方，大家不敢動，不知道怎麼動，不知道該怎麼做，就是電商書價折扣惡戰。這件事情我相信部長知道了，我辦了公聽會，也辦了非常多的座談。甚至文化部之前也邀相關的業者，一起喝咖啡討論可行的方案，但是目前沒有答案。","我們也談了臺語團體，剛剛有兩位委員也都談了，我們就不再多說。但是臺語相關的政策跟資源，在文化部是大家很多很多很多的期待。不管是活動、不管是演講、不管是相關預算或者是跟教育部的跨部會合作，都需要部長您再多多費心。","還有文創發展司在談的文創園區的定位，部長，我覺得之後你也會遇到很大的困境，是來自這五大文創園區各自的商業發展機制。他各自跟民間機制的合作，他的定位或者是他怎麼落地跟各地方縣市政府合作，甚至他可以鼓勵年輕人進駐，或者是協助已經發展到一個階段的廠商。也就是他有商業的層面，他有文化的層面，他還有地方發展的層面，部長，有勞了！","接下來，下一頁還有關於表演藝術的部分，這是在藝發司。臺灣有東尼獎了，在2019年的時候就有多位民間表演藝術聯盟團體，呼籲文化部應該要成立自己的臺灣東尼獎。很可惜的是在2024年，臺灣確實有臺灣東尼獎，但是是落在臺北市。文化部的高度，目前我們還沒有看到，我們知道文化部當年有召開相關會議，但是沒有後續消息。","談到臺灣，部長您在上任的時候，第一份新聞稿說的，你要推動兒少文化幣這件事情，也就是說我可以看得出來部長對兒少是相當重視的。而在史部長任內也成立了相關的兒童台，單台頻道。可是關於兒童自製節目這件事情，部長未來也絕對會是千頭萬緒。部長，您的幕僚都可以請回，因為他們今天都不用幫你回答問題。我沒有要逐一跟部長討論這麼多細緻的問題，我只是要讓部長知道，你有千頭萬緒，你有非常非常多事情需要解決，而這些都只是我們辦公室在去年所追蹤的題目而已。","還有關於臺灣的小孩可不可以唱臺灣自己的兒歌，甚至在所謂的非商業營業空間，像是學校或者是社團活動，如果要播放臺灣自己的歌，很多爸媽甚至收到學校通知，請不要把孩子們用臺灣的歌，或是臺灣兒歌唱跳的影片上傳到YouTube，因為可能會被相關的版權團體做出控告。這是可能啦！但是會不會就因為這樣，如同部長剛剛您被其他委員質詢到關於短影音的問題，關於文化統戰的問題，部長，這也是千頭萬緒。","接下來，我們發現文化部甚至在文化平權會報裡面沒有青年跟兒少諮詢代表。這件事情可能您的幕僚不會在第一時間跟您說，因為我們發現文化部在這件事情上的概念非常非常的，我不要說落後，非常非常的不與時俱進，對於青少的這個部分，文化部的積極度確實很不足。我們也希望文化部之後在相關的諮詢委員會裡面必須要有兒少代表。我相信這件事情是很多委員都會一起關心跟重視的，沒有相關文化平權跟兒少的諮詢機制，其實都沒有辦法讓我們看出現在的青少年或兒少代表，或者是更多的兒少他們的需求。而一旦部長您要推往下到13歲的文化幣，就更不能沒有他們的聲音。我相信部長一定知道，進入國中之後，所有的小孩都被綁在學校裡面寫參考書、寫考卷，這個是不爭的事實。而一旦文化幣到了孩子們的手上，他們真的想花，會不會也沒地方可以花，沒有消費標的可以選擇？我想這個部分我們辦公室會繼續跟文化部對話。","下一頁是關於AI這件事情，臺灣國科會甚至想要做自己的版本。我相信政府的政策有它的相關考量，我不予置評，但是我想問，光是AI到上上個月吧，上個禮拜又出現更新版的AI。它是從影像，甚至它跟你對話，它教你解數學題。我相信現場的葛博士應該非常清楚，一旦臺灣要做自己的AI模型，相關的侵權問題將如何解決？目前我們在文化部也沒有看到相關進度。","還有文策院所有的活動，所有這些，還有好多好多的細節需要討論。到國際展場上如何更實質的拓展我們的文化外交，透過版權交易、透過活動、透過很多的對話，如何讓國外這些出版商願意回頭來看看，臺灣也有很棒的出版原創作品。","我講了這麼多都沒有要部長回答，最後這個問題很重要，部長，你認為現在臺灣文化環境最缺乏、最需要、最迫切的是什麼？說實話，這題我也不敢奢望您回答，我自己都不敢回答。所以部長我想問，在您的想像底下，臺灣的文化環境，你希望在你的任內打造出什麼樣的樣態？你有什麼樣的想像，或者是你希望推動什麼樣的政策或法案，或者是其他更多公共對話來達成您的想像？","我覺得臺灣必須面對的現實就是，在有網路的時代，不管全球化的商業經濟發展是往前或是後退，但是在全球化資訊化時代底下，部長您剛剛說的，要以臺灣本土的創作為傲這件事情，其實難度相對的非常非常高。那部長您如何想像？我給你30秒想像一下，但是在這之前我想先幫部長回答剛剛有一個委員問的議題，也許部長您就可以稍微想像一下，為什麼我要這麼說？剛剛洪孟楷委員在一開始的時候問您，有沒有很多電影它是票房不好，但是後續效果延伸很好的？我有答案，就是像「少女與戰車」這一類的動畫電影，而且我本人就被我小孩邀請，跟他一起走進電影院。這部電影多冷門，現場連葛博士都沒有聽過，叫做「少女與戰車」，它的動畫非常非常非常的……怎麼樣？大家覺得很不紅，可是它後續IP效應非常非常非常好，你看連那個阿宅葛博士都不清楚。像這樣的東西，臺灣有沒有機會做？我會說有，臺灣有非常多的年輕人想要投入動畫製作，而動畫製作可能在過去不是部長您所熟悉的，那您如何想像？","還有剛剛有一個委員問到關於投資抵減的部分，我也可以幫您一併說，順便告訴你現在的困境。目前的投資抵減，要有相關完整的劇本才可以做投資抵減，可是在很多文化創意產業，它光是初期的醞釀成本，我相信部長一定非常清楚，你自己悶在家裡寫稿的時候，沒有人會給你錢，你悶在家裡畫畫創作的時候，沒有人會給你錢。全部都是出版品完成之後，你才會拿到稿費或相關的費用。所以初期的醞釀這件事情，文化部願不願意回頭再去看關於投資抵減的部分？","我的時間用完了，可不可以再給部長30秒簡單回答一下？我剛剛說了這麼多千頭萬緒的問題，部長您如何想像在您的任內去促使這些事情？"],["李部長遠：我覺得我們戰後嬰兒潮世代，在升學主義的成長中，不能上體育課、不能上音樂課、不能上美術課……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們連寫作課都沒有。"],["李部長遠：所以基本上臺灣的教育是非常失敗的，孕育了我們這一整代的人對藝術不重視，它也會影響到我們對文化的投資跟觀念……"],["陳委員培瑜：還有消費，因為不重視我們就不會去消費。"],["李部長遠：你的童書裡面講到，當你要推動文化的時候，它是一個看不到的東西，最後就會把錢擺在經濟、擺在民生、擺在一切的東西上，但是這樣的結果就會創造出一個對文化漠視的時代，然後也完全對文化抱著很輕蔑的態度。你問我未來在我有限的時間內，我也不曉得我會做多久……"],["陳委員培瑜：你會做很久的，部長，我們都支持你，你會做很久的。"],["李部長遠：在我有限的時間內，我希望把文化變成一個大家都覺得蠻時髦的或者蠻流行的東西。我做的第一步就是去找過去曾經很同情我們做紙風車集團的企業大老闆，希望他們能夠拿錢出來，我們不是有一個方案是企業可以投資文化幣嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：對，可是我剛剛說，回頭你要進行相關修法，光是初期的這件事情，很多大老闆會看不懂。我有一個故事只能私下跟部長說，很多大企業老闆對於東西的現金迴轉率，他的想像可能是三個月，可是我們很多文化產品回收不會在三個月。我想文策院董事長非常清楚，不會在三個月內就有相關回收。部長您繼續，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：大概就是讓他覺得投資文化不是一個，我們從那個抵減稅或者是說ESG這種地方給他得到立即的利益之外，他打從心裡覺得這個文化很重要，他喜歡音樂、他喜歡美術、他喜歡電影，是打從心裡面有一種感染力。可是我剛剛講過，我們這一整代的人都沒有文化，我們這一整代的人……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你說的是你那一代，還是我這一代？"],["李部長遠：我這一代，我不敢講你這一代。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長您現在……"],["李部長遠：我70歲。"],["陳委員培瑜：我46歲，我的身邊很多好朋友其實他們可能賺的錢絕對都比我多，我以前就只是一個講師，但確實他們願意花在在地文化消費的比例是低的。沒有錯，他們可能甚至願意送小孩去補英文、補才藝、送小孩出國，但是你叫他多買一本繪本放在家裡，他會跟你說32頁很快就看完了，是要買了幹嘛！部長請繼續。"],["李部長遠：所以你講到這種童書，要父母親自己非常愛童書，他才會去買童書，否則他就不會買童書。同樣的道理，我們一整代人對文化有點輕蔑的感覺時，他根本不覺得值得投資。所以我覺得我要做的事情就是要讓真的擁有資源的人，比如企業家，他願意把他多餘的一些利潤拿出來投資在文化上幫助整個社會，他會覺得很值得。他打從心裡喜歡這個東西，我們要用文化感染他，這是我真的想到我可以直接做的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，你剛剛講到產業的投資很重要，相關的法規我們後續可以再討論。小小回應一下，部長您剛開始的時候有說，你有去參觀了一個韓國的繪本展。其實韓國的繪本在這幾年之所以有這麼強大的輸出力量，是因為他們政府在投資抵減做對了一件事情。相關的事情我們辦公室會再跟部長分享，今天謝謝主席，也謝謝部長。部長，未來我們一起加油，這本書絕對會送給你。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你。"],["陳委員培瑜：我要再一次強調它已經絕版了，已經絕版了！召委如果也想要，我努力想辦法從二手書市場或再去出版社要。這本書透過反諷法讓我們知道一件事情，就是文化確實如空氣一般，我們很多人都沒有感覺。這本書我真的保存得非常好，它甚至後面附了一張海報，如果到最後現場都沒有人了，只剩下演唱家，那其他人去哪裡了？去滑手機、去看Netflix，喔！不是，去各式各樣的平台。然後他故意嘲諷了，做了一個文化禁止日，這一天所有人都不能參與文化活動，可是我們以為文化活動是什麼？是不要進劇場嗎？不要聽歌嗎？不要看劇嗎？很抱歉！各位，如果禁止文化日那天真的發生，我們連衣服都沒得穿，因為連衣服都是一個文化。臺北有時裝設計週，對嗎？所以謝謝部長，我們未來一起努力，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝，我會把你的書放在我辦公室裡天天看著。"],["陳委員培瑜：一定要，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝陳培瑜委員。","我這裡宣告一下，因為現在已經11點多了，所以不好意思，對吳春城委員不好意思，我們在郭昱晴委員質詢完休息5分鐘，抱歉，謝謝。","我們接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.88159375,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.636593750000003,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.63534375,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.77096875,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.81284375,"end":73.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.61846875,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.88409375,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.62659375000001,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.16534375,"end":160.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.22096875,"end":204.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.36596875,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.31534375,"end":289.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.55096875000004,"end":328.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.39721875000004,"end":365.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.23096875000005,"end":381.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.72221875,"end":441.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.93221875,"end":471.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.27784375000005,"end":490.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.93721875000006,"end":505.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.75346875,"end":509.58846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.17909375000005,"end":562.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.19596875,"end":581.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.89346875,"end":645.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.30534375,"end":648.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.00971875,"end":685.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.31846875,"end":673.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.56096875,"end":690.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.19721875,"end":692.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.7622187500001,"end":699.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.46159375,"end":702.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.47846875,"end":703.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.38096875,"end":705.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.1484687500001,"end":706.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.1609687499999,"end":710.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.1940937500001,"end":711.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.5947187500001,"end":724.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.62221875,"end":731.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.41909375,"end":730.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.9040937500001,"end":753.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.4184687500001,"end":733.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.1072187500001,"end":761.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.0890937500001,"end":777.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.93909375,"end":779.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.9809687500001,"end":780.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.07784375,"end":780.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.0947187500001,"end":780.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.7865937500001,"end":806.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.8034687500001,"end":781.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.3559687500001,"end":784.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.5209687500001,"end":811.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.6340937500001,"end":816.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":816.5109687500001,"end":825.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.2309687500001,"end":833.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.74034375,"end":837.604718750000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會做多久在我有限的時間內我會希望把文化變成是一個大家都覺得是一個"},{"start":712.659,"end":716.783,"text":"對,可是我剛剛說嘛可是回頭你要相關修法進行就是光是初期這件事情很多大老闆會看不懂"},{"start":736.92,"end":753.951,"text":"﹗"},{"start":754.164,"end":775.537,"text":"大概就是讓他覺得投資文化不是一個我們從那個抵減稅或者是說ESG這種地方給他得到利益之外他打從心裡覺得這個文化很重要他喜歡音樂他喜歡美術他喜歡電影是打從心裡面有一種感染力可是我剛剛講過我們這一整代的人都沒有文化"},{"start":776.317,"end":777.038,"text":"拜託你說的是你那一代還是我這一代?"},{"start":777.038,"end":782.741,"text":"我這一代阿 我不敢講你這一代阿 我70歲阿 我46歲我的身邊很多好朋友其實他們可能賺的錢絕對都比我多我以前就只是一個講師但確實他們願意花在在地文化消費的比例是低的沒有錯他們可能甚至願意送小孩去補英文補才藝送小孩出國但是你叫他多買一本繪本放在家他會跟你說32頁很快就看完了是要買了幹嘛這樣"},{"start":806.817,"end":824.849,"text":"所以你講到這種童書要父母親自己非常愛童書他才會去買童書或者他就不會買童書同樣道理我們一整代人對文化有點欺滅的感覺的時候他根本不覺得值得投資嘛所以我覺得我要做的事情就是要讓"},{"start":826.294,"end":826.454,"text":"：培瑜"},{"start":843.951,"end":873.951,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":873.951,"end":893.234,"text":"﹗"},{"start":893.374,"end":920.553,"text":"如果到最後現場都沒有人了只是要演唱家其他人去哪裡了去滑手機去看Netflix不是去各式各樣的平台然後他故意嘲諷了做一個文化禁止日這一天所有人都不能參與文化活動可是我們以為文化活動是什麼是不要進劇場嗎不要聽歌嗎不要看劇嗎很抱歉各位如果禁止文化日那天真的發生我們連衣服都沒得穿因為連衣服"},{"start":922.054,"end":922.154,"text":"謝謝陳培瑜"}]}},{"id":"152799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dde58227167c484a942979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20177b740a4ce868cf5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:59:38 - 11:11:57","影片長度":"00:12:19","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":739,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-24"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:11:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:59:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1099,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時59分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好！我想今天大家對於一些突發的新聞事件都很關心，我過去曾就一個司法精神鑑定來決定是否接受醫治的問題提出質詢，不久前發生了中捷砍人事件，就之前類似相關的案子，我們去瞭解得知，基於法規，高雄市衛生局並未證實該名嫌疑犯是否有精神疾病被列管，但是調閱他的就醫紀錄，從2020年後就一直有家人在照顧，而且規律的在居住縣市就醫跟服藥。我想詢問一個流程的問題，如果用司法精神鑑定他不需要接受醫治者是怎麼處遇？需接受醫治者又會是怎麼樣的情況？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就最近發生這樣一些隨機砍人的事情，我想目前我們就是全力在推動司法精神醫院，這是由行政院在統籌的，整個硬體部分設施是由衛福部主管，那我們法務部……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，你答得太超前了。我是說如果他是需要醫治者才會進入到監護處分，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，醫治者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實如果我們不確定這個個案，我說以其他已經發生的個案如果是這樣的話，那就需要來確保社會安全，彌補這個法治漏洞，但目前不管是監護處分或那時候說的暫時安置處分大概有4個階段，如果有傷人之虞、精神狀況極不穩定，這是指在前期就發生，不是這些已經發生的個案情況的話，那麼會有一個那時候稱為司法精神病院的階段，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我接下來就要請教你，監護處分如何確保不會有危害社會的風險？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對監護處分事實上我們最近有修法，本來是在五年以下，最近修正為可以展延，因為我們希望他能夠復歸社會，所謂監護就是要監督保護的意思，它有拘束到人身的自由，我們希望他在復歸社會之前能夠完全的康復。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請看螢幕，這就是我這上面說的一直要確定他並沒有太大的攻擊行為或反社會人格才能回復到社區、回到社會，但是如果稍微有這樣的傾向，就會再往下又回到司法精神病院，是不是這樣的情況？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問在接受戒護期間、接受治療的時候，我們的戒護人力是否充足？就在不久之前，一名殺人未遂犯在基隆某醫院進行5年的監護卻趁隙逃離，保安處分執行法第十五條有螢幕上顯示的這些規定，請問這個基隆醫院是一般醫院還是戒護專屬醫院？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，請協助說明。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，它不是一般醫院，是關於精神專科的醫院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是精神專科醫院，那是不是我們所謂的監護專屬醫院？"],["黃次長謀信：它是專門收這方面的病人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那跟之前我們要求要設立的司法精神病院有什麼不一樣？"],["黃次長謀信：它不是目前我們正在規劃的精神專屬醫院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是目前所謂的監護專屬醫院但是專門的精神醫院，就是整個醫院都是收精神科的病患？"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問我剛剛說的監護專屬醫院目前進度怎麼樣？"],["黃次長謀信：專屬醫院的部分目前正在建置當中，預計可能要到115年初才能夠收治。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2026年？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們看到本來是規劃在高雄凱旋醫院，今年它要成為全臺第一個可設置300張病床的司法精神病院，對不對？現在你說要到2026年也就是115年。"],["黃次長謀信：專門醫院的部分要到116年，剛才講的是專屬病房的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請教部長或次長，在過渡之前，如何加強它的安全措施？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在專屬的病房跟病床部分事實上已經開始收治了，就是剛剛委員有提到的那部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我才問你們，因為我之前就問到說在基隆有人逃脫了，那怎麼辦？部長你覺得呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前在收治的精神病房只有高雄的凱旋醫院，應該有30床，另外因為這個需求……"],["鍾委員佳濱：基隆的是一般醫院，不是精神科專屬醫院？"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是屬於醫療機構裡面有設置精神科病房的，當然發生這件事我們是很痛心，但是我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會不會出個檢討報告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會去做一個檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久之內可以送給本委員會和本席？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們目前就是希望在監護處所這部分收治的這些設備……"],["鍾委員佳濱：針對本事件擴大了全面性的強化過渡時期，尤其要拖到2027年，在這段時間，不管是專屬醫院還是病房，你們怎麼樣去全盤落實它的戒護？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想我們會對此再做一個檢討，請給我們一些時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多少時間？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於這個事件，其實本部已經發函要求所屬的檢察機關現在全面進行檢視。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概要多久？你們要有一個時間給本院和本委員會，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：檢討報告嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是給我們一個月？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，謝謝！","我們再往下看，關於大家所關心的明天我們要處理的打詐專法中司法部分的洗錢防制法，其實大部分的被害者在受訪時最想要的是把錢拿回來，但是超過六成民眾拿不回一毛錢，當然我們也很希望定罪，但是更需要的是把這個錢拿回來。根據過去的統計，不管是銀行的臨櫃關懷而阻詐還是財損金額，其實事後查扣的不法所得從一開始的一成到三成是有進步啦！但是相對於臨櫃關懷而阻詐，還有很大的進步空間。簡單講就是說到目前為止，對打詐的部分，我們發現事後去追查的成效遠不如事前臨櫃阻擋來得快。您看這怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前在懲詐這部分，對查扣這部分臺高檢有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們雖然有成長，但是為什麼遠不如事前臨櫃關懷阻詐來得效果好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：懲詐這部分我們已經回到有12億多了，委員提到臨櫃阻詐這部分，我想這部分應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：阻詐的部分不用你回答，那是金融機構的事情，我問的是您的事後查扣的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：事後查扣現在已經有返還了，我們臺高檢有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的簡報上有寫大概三成，還有很大的進步空間。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我請教一下，我們來找方法。根據你們今天的業務報告，請問查扣不法犯罪所得當中的動產、不動產跟虛擬貨幣，哪個比例最高？查獲詐欺犯追查回來的贓款中，動產、不動產、虛擬貨幣哪一個的占比高？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們再去分析。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒關係！我給你兩個方向，其實一般如果是專業的詐團，大概不會把取來的犯罪所得去買個房子等你去查扣後把它追回，是不是這樣？合理嘛！頂多你看到他開名牌超跑嘛！炫富嘛！是不是這樣？但是比較智慧型的會換成虛擬貨幣，追查虛擬貨幣冷錢包、熱錢包都有一些實際上的困難，是不是這樣？所以目前我們這些虛擬資產的問題，如果虛擬貨幣占比很高，那表示虛擬貨幣是我們要去查的，如果虛擬貨幣占的比例低，表示我們要去把虛擬貨幣拿回來是相對有困難的，你認為是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以關於虛擬資產這部分，我們查扣的其實就是手機看看裡面有沒有冷錢包，藉此去查到那個虛擬貨幣，委員你講的這部分其實我們都在做了，我們的臺高檢有成立一個虛擬資產監管平台，我們在查扣的時候都是從那個手機去扣那個冷錢包，因為錢一定要藏到那個冷錢包裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們自己並沒有從這些追回詐款的部分去分析他的路徑，據我們目前普遍打詐到現在，因為我們的數位金融發達，包括了虛擬貨幣、虛擬資產，它有轉手迅速、路徑複雜難以追查、辨別贓款不容易等難處，款項一進入、混雜在一起了，我們要查扣、要說明這是詐款都很困難，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這的確困難，因為詐團也在演化，這部分我們需要委員能夠支持我們的打詐四法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是支持，你們有沒有遇到困難？要用什麼方法去解決？找到問題的癥結沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在努力，因為我們正在科技化，我在北檢的時候，我們有查到一個虛擬貨幣的交易商是加入的，其實最近查獲的這些詐團案件幾乎就是用虛擬貨幣來洗錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我本來是暗示你，現在直接明示你啦！剛剛有委員從財政委員會特別過來，本席之前也在財政委員會，你們現在急迫需要的是透過金融機關，在虛擬資產的管理上建立一個制度，讓你們就像去銀行阻詐或者追回詐款時有一個依循，可以有一個證據證明這是詐款，你們需要金融機構監理機關的協助，你們想好要請它幫助你什麼了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們知道，剛才講的是懲詐部分，現在講的是在監管的部分，我們希望虛擬貨幣的業者是不是可以不要去中心化，我們希望能回到中心化，讓我們能夠透過這些去調取一些虛擬貨幣的交易資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，你終於說到一點了，如何調取虛擬資產或虛擬貨幣的交易資料，因為連金融機構都是目前才開始要把這個虛擬資產納入交易的管理，如果早有銀行、早有股票交易所，對這些東西的移轉都有跡可查，目前金融機構還沒有完全納入建立這樣的制度，你們要查很困難，是不是這樣？次長你要補充？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上臺高檢在我們這個平台已經對國內四大幣商交易所建立了相關的平台機制，檢察官上網就可以在電腦裡面查到相關交易所的交易紀錄了，目前已經可以了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，其實目前這四大還是民間的啦！也不是正式納入我們金融監理機關的監管，所以你們應該趕快要求金融監理機關趕快的來協助你們，是不是也比照剛剛那樣，給你一個月的時間，將你們需要金融機關配合的辦理事項列出來，我會幫忙繼續追。可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以，謝謝委員，這是追查虛擬貨幣的利器。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同樣的，你們有什麼需求、需要什麼協助，一個月內提出一個報告。可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們來做，謝謝委員的支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為部長剛就任，今天是第一次來我們這邊做業務專報，我想每位委員都對你相對客氣，也對你有所期許，希望能在很短的時間內，就這段時間以來大家在司法、在法務上的議題儘快地回應社會的期待。可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝召委，謝謝部長。","現在休息兩分鐘，換個場，兩分鐘後再處理臨時提案。謝謝！","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時14分）"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：現在繼續開會，處理臨時提案共1案，請宣讀，宣讀後再進行處理。","臨時提案1（修正本）","一、","臨時提案","案由：","偵查不公開作業辦法於108年新增第11條，明定全國各地檢署及警政署、調查局、廉政署，要組成偵查不公開檢討小組，並定期公布檢討報告以及相關查辦及處分情形之資料。","以臺灣臺北地方檢察署為例，經查，於113年1月公告之新聞檢討報告，可見108年7月起至今，檢討件數996件，查辦35件，4年多來，均無任何一位機關內部人員受到查處。","然從108年爆發之潤寅涉嫌詐貸案、109年之立委涉嫌集體收賄案、111年高虹安涉嫌貪瀆案等，均不乏有媒體「依據知情人士透漏」報導搜索、偵訊細節，甚或揭露手機對話內容，更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形，此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關，衡情，若非傳遞訊息予媒體，媒體自難以獲悉偵查內情。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於二個月內提出檢討及精進報告，內容應併含：","1.研議公開之新聞檢討報告，應適度透露檢討結論，始能澄清檢討之力度，非僅單純之統計數字。","2.研議是否將禁止採訪區擴及襄閱辦公室，另開記者接待室，獨立於檢察官辦公空間處所。","3.研議拜訪之媒體記者，需登記拜訪的檢察官為何人，且若為多人之辦公空間，是否另至接待空間。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：林思銘　　謝龍介"],["主席：現在處理臨時提案第一案，請提案委員補充說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主席！有關臨時提案的部分，我這邊先做簡單的補充。有鑑於這幾年檢察官在處理案件的時候，其實都會有偵查大幅公開的問題，甚至某些特定的媒體變成是新型態的法務部公報，會在搜索完畢甚至隔天早上就把所有相關的細節都報導出來，經過我這段時間去找當初這些案件的被告，我去瞭解了一下當時扣案的金額、細節、扣案的物品等，報導所述內容竟然跟在他家扣到的東西一模一樣，這顯然是有人把偵查的秘密洩露出去，因為之前蔡部長有提到說這可能是警察洩密，但是我也刻意去找了幾件，承辦的單位不是調查官就是廉政署，如果說指揮偵辦案件是檢察官，承辦的機關是廉政署或調查官，那法務部是沒辦法再推給任何人的。之前的蔡部長又說可能是律師洩露出去，我說這完全不合邏輯，哪一個被告的律師會把對自己不利益的東西盡量講出去？這在邏輯上面是難以想像的，除非有少數的特定例外。這段時間我們又經過瞭解知悉法務部雖然有成立了所謂偵查不公開檢討小組，從108年到現在也檢查了996件，可是到現在也沒有任何一位機關內部人員受到處罰。還有我們依據上一次沈發惠委員提供的數據，這段時間後來有涉嫌、被處分的人數好像也只有十幾位而已，非常非常的少，這些東西都有問題。所以我們希望把這個提出來，因為任何人在判決確定之前，我們都只能推定他是無辜的，如果有人利用檢察官偵辦案件然後動不動對外放消息，藉以達成他的政治目的或者是一般私人恩怨，企業與企業之間併購以前很常做的一件事情就是我要併購你之前先去搞你一次，讓我的併購成本降低，以前有好幾個案子都有類似的狀況發生，所以我一直認為「偵查不公開」法務部這邊自己要再去檢討，以現在的數據以及現在媒體在外面釋放出來的那些資訊來看，其實是非常嚴重，在座每一個人都有可能是被害人。謝謝各位！"],["主席：謝謝吳召委的提案說明，請機關針對臨時提案回復。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員！針對這個臨時提案，我們建議刪除第2點，決議上的其餘內容我們都沒有意見，就刪除第2點，是不是可以這樣？"],["吳委員宗憲：第2點的部分刪除那沒問題，就是依照部長的建議，但是第1點要求的數據如果你們一直沒有給我們，那我們到最後只好要求第2點，但在這之前，我覺得我很樂意接受部長的這個建議。謝謝部長！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝！在這裡主席也做個說明，因為本席在3月18號的時候就本項議題也提出過質詢，當時要求法務部要在三個月內提出一個書面報告，從當時算起三個月就是6月18號，現在吳召委的提案是要求在兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告，因為這些內容也將本席在3月18號提出的相關質詢內容涵蓋在內，吳召委又加了第一項，因此我徵求提案委員的意見，是不是改成在6月底前？因為你們本來在6月18號就要交給委員會了，因為吳召委又多了這個第一項，所以我是建議調整成6月底前，可以嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好。謝謝！"],["主席：那我們就改成6月底前。臨時提案第一案修正後照修正本通過，把「二個月內」改成「6月底前」，其他的就如同剛剛機關所報告的，本案照討論後修正文字通過。","接下來繼續進行質詢，請吳委員思瑤質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-24","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","林思銘","謝龍介","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","羅智強","林德福","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.414093750000001,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.34596875,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.87721875,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.42471875,"end":31.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.40159375,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.75034375,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.96721875,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.57784375,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.31596875000001,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.34971875000001,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.44409375000001,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.32971875000001,"end":86.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.62846875000001,"end":117.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.36659375,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.53159375000001,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.27284375,"end":126.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.03096875,"end":135.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.65096875,"end":162.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.26721875,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.82409375,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.92846875,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.34596875,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.14284375,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.94409375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.26034375,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.74534375000002,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.57221875000002,"end":182.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.44971875000002,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.31721875000002,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":199.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.34971875000002,"end":202.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.23971875,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.50096875000003,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.49159375000002,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.47846875000002,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.73409375000003,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.96159375000002,"end":228.02909375000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那麼請多久之內可以送給我們委員會的本事件這個我們目前就是希望就是在在監護的處所的這部分他那個收治的這些的針對本事件擴大的全面性的強化過渡時期尤其要拖到2027年你們這段時間不管是專屬醫院還是病房你們怎麼樣去做一個全盤的落實他的介護跟委員報告我想我們這個會再做一個檢討那這個給我們一些時間 多少時間"},{"start":352.938,"end":366.914,"text":"跟委員報告關於這個事件其實我們本部已經發函要求所屬的假機關現在全面去檢視目前已經發函要求所屬假機關都去檢視目前你們要有一個時間給我們本院嘛可以嗎檢討報告嗎對"},{"start":377.999,"end":388.665,"text":"明天我們要處理的打詐專法當中的洗錢防治法但是呢其實大部分的被害者在受訪的時候他們最想要的是把錢拿回來但是超過六成民眾拿不回一毛錢"},{"start":389.505,"end":390.285,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":407.873,"end":409.034,"text":"事後去追查的成效遠不如事前臨櫃組黨來得快,您看怎麼辦?"},{"start":423.763,"end":452.478,"text":"目前齁目前在懲詐這部分我們對查扣的這部分我們也臺高檢有一個一個為什麼為什麼你們雖然有成長但是遠不如事前林貴關懷主詐的來的效果那那個那個那個懲詐這部分我們已經回到有12億多了齁主詐不是外委員提到這個主詐主詐這邊林貴這部分我想這部分主詐我不用你回答那是金融機構的事情我說您的事後查扣的部分事後罰款的部分現在已經有返還的已經換招我們一個有一個臺高檢我有寫"},{"start":453.018,"end":453.138,"text":"動產不動產跟虛擬貨幣"},{"start":473.322,"end":474.603,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":497.941,"end":498.081,"text":"主席"},{"start":515.009,"end":543.046,"text":"所以這部分關於虛擬資產這邊我們在查扣的其實我們就手機看看裡面有沒有那個錢包我們現在去查到那個虛擬貨幣那我們希望就是能夠根據就是委員你講的這邊其實我們都在做了那我們那個台高有成立一個虛擬資產的一個監管平台那這部我想我們就在查扣的時候都是手機之後我們就是從那個去扣那個2000包因為錢一定要藏到那個2000包裡面所以你們自己並沒有去從這些追回"},{"start":543.826,"end":543.866,"text":"主席"},{"start":573.118,"end":573.418,"text":"找到問題的癥結沒有?"},{"start":594.745,"end":612.452,"text":"我本來是暗示你,現在直接明示你了,剛剛有委員從財政委特別來,本席之前也在財政委會,你們現在急迫需要的是透過金融機關在虛擬資產的管理上建立一個制度,讓你們就像去銀行去主詐或者追收賬款的時候,有一個證據證明這是詐款。"},{"start":615.533,"end":615.653,"text":"金融機構金官協助"},{"start":645.333,"end":645.753,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":671.569,"end":694.029,"text":"事實上臺高檢在我們這個平台已經對國內四大的交易所B3交易所已經有建立相關的平台機制檢察官現在上網就可以在電腦裡面查到是相關的交易所的交易紀錄了目前已經可以了是的 其實目前我們希望這四大還是民間的他目前也不是正式納入我們金融監理機關的監管所以你們應該趕快的要求金融"},{"start":695.219,"end":695.259,"text":"主席"},{"start":718.55,"end":718.61,"text":"謝謝教委﹚謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d7189c0f127bc525f3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017be25a03cfd7880e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:03:33 - 11:11:09","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":456,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:11:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T11:03:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時3分）謝謝主席，有請教育部國際司廖高賢代理司長、國發會副主委、僑委會僑生處簡任視察，還有勞動部勞動力發展署陳主任秘書。"],["主席：來。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員早。"],["廖代理司長高賢：委員早。"],["林委員宜瑾：我想先請教一下教育部，上週教育及文化委員會請教育部專案報告的時候，有提到國際招生及臺灣優華語化的計畫，本席提出華語教學人員待遇的議題，其中提到國內華語中心的華語教學人員大多都是兼任制的，三個月一聘，沒有勞健保，有沒有勞健保還要看學校；而外派的華語教學人員雖然有教育部的一年補助，獲得國外學校續聘者還可以延長補助，不過補助最多就是四年；在現場的華語教學人員也指出，如果跟學校談調薪的話，有可能學校就會請教育部再請新的老師來就好。總結就是外派的華語老師面臨到的就是時間不長、薪資有高有低的問題，可能讓老師會覺得自己很像免洗筷一樣，用了就丟。上個禮拜教育部潘前部長跟我答詢時表示，他會請國際司再來檢視，也會設法完善華語教師的制度，以穩定師資。我們必須認知到有穩定的師資，才會有穩定的華語教學。請教，現在到底開始著手檢視整個教師的待遇了嗎？未來有沒有什麼需要調整、改善的計畫？"],["廖代理司長高賢：謝謝委員的提問。跟委員說明，現在我們華語教師有兩類，第一類就像剛才委員所提出來的，國內有65所華語文中心在教授外籍人士相關華語，這個部分我們也有責成學校的華語中心能夠完善他們對於華語老師的契約、聘僱，包括剛才提到的勞健保及相關的保障，目前我們在華語計畫裡頭已經有在推動。至於對外輸出華師的部分，因為涉及到國外大學的需求、薪資的條件，我們教育部補助的是他們生活費的部分，去年我們也把整個生活費配合行政院的日支費有所調增。以上報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。再來，本席想要討論僑生招生及留臺的議題。因為少子女化的問題，未來當然勞動的人口會非常不足，所以國發會在2022年就提出為了滿足國家產業所需人力，外籍勞動力長期至2030年需要淨增40萬，其中僑外生應該增加20萬名。雖然過去僑外生統計的數據顯示，我們每一年畢業的僑外生有成長，但是就2019年度的數據來看，僑外生有1萬人，可是最終留在臺灣工作的其實大概只有一半上下而已。","很多僑生當初選擇來臺灣念書，除了學費、生活費相對地平易近人以外，其實很多人是喜歡臺灣的，對臺灣的文化也非常熱愛。僑生在臺灣除了念大學、碩士以外，因為他來這邊念書，所以他對這片土地有感情，會有一定的人脈，如果最終沒有辦法留在臺灣工作，其實相當可惜，怎麼樣讓他能留在臺灣工作，是我們必須努力的課題。","就像我所說的，按照天下雜誌的調查，有高達九成的僑生希望畢業後能留下來，可是他面臨到一些困難，其中近五成的學生提到想進入的公司不符合聘僱僑外生的資格，也就是說，依現行的規定，資本額500萬或者營業額1,000萬以上的企業才能僱用僑生，很多新創公司及中小企業都沒有辦法聘僱；再來就是雇主不願意幫忙辦工作許可，因為程序非常繁瑣，有些雇主根本不知道怎麼樣幫這些僑外生申請勞動簽證，讓這些學生沒有辦法留在臺灣；還有很多僑生也不曉得、不瞭解相關的法規；更多當然是受到留臺工作評點制的限制。剛剛有委員詢問，我知道之前僑委會表示已經跟勞動部建議要移除評點制的門檻，所以我想要瞭解現在到底什麼時候可以上路、實施？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有關於評點制度的名額，我們會先朝擴充的方向去做，就是擴充額度。委員講的不瞭解相關法規及評點制度這一塊，其實教育部、勞動部都會一起到學校去做宣導，讓這些僑外生瞭解。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，那雇主的部分？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：雇主的部分，因為它是屬於就服法裡面的相關規定，所以剛剛勞動部其實也有說明為什麼我們要設定一些資本額的限制，而且他也有講到還是有一些例外排除的規定可以適用，基本上主要是希望保障僑外生受僱者的勞動權益。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，所以放寬這些所謂資本額的限制是有在研擬就對了？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：請勞動部說明一下，這是勞動部的權責。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：跟委員報告，目前在引進僑外生的企業資本額跟營業額的限制是資本額500萬，營業額1,000萬，但是如果它是屬於剛剛委員所提到的新創企業的話，就不受這個限制；同時，製造業如果屬於六大核心或者是五加二相關產業，也不受這個限制。另外服務業的部分，因為它的營業規模稍微比較小，所以這個部分就是剛剛副主委所講的，它是透過跨部會以個案會商的方式來進行，所以這裡面還是有空間可以處理。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝，期待這部分大家再加強努力，OK！謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林宜瑾委員。","接下來我們請陳秀寳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.91159375,"end":22.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.99784375,"end":23.352218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.664093750000003,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.49096875,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.773468750000003,"end":27.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.79034375,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":28.195343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.460968750000003,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.70346875000001,"end":170.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.22721875000002,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.09284375000001,"end":304.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.55284375,"end":342.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.07846875,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.01409375000003,"end":359.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.99159375000005,"end":371.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.75409375000004,"end":368.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.94346875,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.96034375000005,"end":371.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.38221875000005,"end":371.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.83784375000005,"end":372.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.95159375000003,"end":373.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.71096875,"end":404.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.59221875000003,"end":407.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.07284375,"end":407.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.74784375,"end":407.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.78159375,"end":407.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.88284375,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.96721875000003,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.08471875000004,"end":415.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.70034375,"end":414.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.75096875,"end":414.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.97034375000004,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.00409375000004,"end":415.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.81409375000004,"end":446.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.84721875,"end":452.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.80409375000005,"end":455.08221875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.14,"end":0.16,"text":"委員長"},{"start":29.537,"end":55.995,"text":"我想先請教一下這個教育部喔這個上週教委會我在請那個教育部專案報告的時候有提到國際招生跟台灣優華語化的計畫那本席提出華語教學人員待遇的議題那這個提到說國內華語中心的華語教學人員大多是兼任制的那三個月一聘那沒有勞健保"},{"start":56.755,"end":56.895,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":75.322,"end":75.962,"text":"﹚林宜瑾﹚"},{"start":96.756,"end":123.878,"text":"教育部潘前部長是跟我答詢說他會請國際司再來檢視那也會來設法完善這個華語教師的制度以穩定他的師資那我想我們必須認定認識到說有穩定的師資我們才會有這個穩定的這個華語的這個教學那所以請教就現在到底開始著手來檢視這個整個教師的待遇那未來有什麼需要調整改善的計畫沒有"},{"start":125.461,"end":150.714,"text":"謝謝委員的提問跟委員說明現在我們華語教室有兩類第一類就像剛才那個委員所提出來的我們國內有65所的華語文中心在教授外籍人士的一些相關華語那這個部分呢我們也有折成各個學校的華語中心能夠完善他們對於這些華語老師的一些契約聘僱包括剛才提到的勞健保以及相關的一些保障這個已經目前我們在華語計畫裡頭已經有在推動"},{"start":153.595,"end":153.615,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":171.186,"end":171.206,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":196.295,"end":203.479,"text":"其中喬外申他就增加20萬名應該要增加20萬名雖然過去喬外申留台統計的數據我們每一年畢業的喬外申雖然有成長但是"},{"start":211.783,"end":231.954,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":231.954,"end":250.52,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":250.6,"end":250.62,"text":"蘇珮瑾"},{"start":265.822,"end":265.882,"text":"則不予審查．。．"},{"start":286.807,"end":287.068,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":305.589,"end":305.769,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":328.282,"end":342.498,"text":"有委員詢問那也知道說之前僱委會有表示說已經跟勞動部有建議要移除這評點制的門檻啦齁那所以我想說要了解現在到底什麼時候可以上路實施"},{"start":344.13,"end":344.15,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":373.758,"end":403.147,"text":"教育部,內政部吧因為他是屬於救福法裡面的那勞動部,勞動部救福法裡面的相關的規定所以剛剛其實那個勞動部其實也有說明了就是為什麼我們要設定一些資本額的限制而且他有講到說其實還是有一些例外的排除的規定可以適用那基本上還是希望因為會有設定主要還是要希望保上橋外生這些"},{"start":403.667,"end":403.687,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":425.211,"end":445.889,"text":"﹗如果他是屬於剛剛委員所提到的新創企業的話,他不受這個的限制。同時製造業如果有很多他的這個包括是屬於六大核心或者是五家相關產業的話,也不受這個限制。那另外服務業的部分因為他的營業的規模稍微比較小,所以這邊就是剛剛我們副主委所講的,他是透過跨部會、個案會商的方式來進行,所以這裡面還是有空間可以處理。"},{"start":446.912,"end":448.173,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"152797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9df7f5fb8924f208ea42979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20177b355aea3eb5498a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:49:05 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有甚至他不只接受訪問他還變成搖身一變變成了主持人訪問別人訪問我們立法院民進黨的委員甚至本席剛剛查了一下YouTube上最新影片5月19號還上傳陳水扁前總統受刑人還在訪問別人"},{"start":378.726,"end":384.217,"text":"社會大眾覺得他不只踩紅線還踩成紅地毯變成了一個紅龍部長怎麼看"},{"start":388.903,"end":411.088,"text":"這部分陳前總統的保外醫治的目前我們還是依照監獄行刑法以及那個監獄受刑人的保外醫治的一個審核基準去做處理的那有一個醫療那我們的基準有嗎?就是事不完全都已經超出那個範圍我們好像是話外之地"},{"start":411.528,"end":417.691,"text":"他有沒有保外醫治的這部分我們還是尊重專業醫師的所以專業醫師認為說他應該要上台他應該要演講他應該要談政治他應該要接受訪問對他身體比較好"},{"start":425.528,"end":450.213,"text":"有專業醫師真正的專業公文書給你們讓你們知道來來來部長部長請提供如果說有的話請提供因為過去都講說每一次把外就醫都沒有再重新的評估都是沿用如果說有的話請提供因為今天是備詢台回答的事情都要有評有據而且這個都有受到我們相關的一個"},{"start":451.499,"end":475.487,"text":"相關的一個記錄來請說明報告委員有關阿扁前總統的所謂的這個事部這個是針對他個案每一次個案的一些相關的提醒那我們是尊重醫療的專業那醫師的診斷是他去參加相關的活動是對他的病情有幫助的我們尊重醫生有醫生的專業醫療曾經有給法務部過說"},{"start":479.548,"end":484.012,"text":"讓陳水扁上臺讓陳水扁演講 讓陳水扁談政治 讓陳水扁接受訪問是對他身體有幫助的是 有這一份醫療來 什麼時候這個我們每 比如說他要參加的活動當然他會有展言展言每一次我們是遵守那個醫療什麼時候有這個醫療醫組直接寫來 醫組原則上他們是三個月會 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11:10:23","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":651,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:10:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:59:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時59分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委好，也歡迎您到金管會來，我想接下去金管會跟我們財政委員會有非常非常多的互動。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝！"],["黃委員珊珊：首先我想就前一陣子我們2月1日上任之後跟黃天牧主委一直在討論的事，也是本委員會大家非常關心的融資租賃業。融資租賃業現在已經成為臺灣的三大影子銀行，這三大影子銀行數千億元的融資，造就臺灣非常多年青人成為所謂的山道猴子，主委都理解嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：山道猴子讓很多年青人背負了數百萬的債，一輛3、5萬元的摩托車可以借到幾十萬元，甚至現在已經嚴重到拍張冰箱的照片就可以借個20萬元，完全不需要徵信，更不需要說明利率。本黨團已經擬好融資公司法相關的草案，融資公司專法在民國97年金管會也曾經提出院版，主委剛上任，我想請教一下，你對融資公司設立專法的立場是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛也有很多委員關注，在我上任之前，我們同仁也都跟我提到這些內容，現階段金管會的作法大概是以現況進行管理，例如我們希望先針對大型的資融公司，透過一些像上市櫃公司……"],["黃委員珊珊：我想問你對專法的方式有沒有什麼意見，目前還沒有想法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛提到就是目前我們還在蒐集各國對於融資公司是否由金融監理機關來管理這一塊，我剛才也跟其他委員報告，我們也不排除做這樣的研究。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，其實我們在質詢的時候有提出來，像美國就是用金融監管單位，甚至連中國大陸都是，而且我們的公股銀行在中國大陸也有設置同樣的公司，也受當地法律的監管。也就是說，融資公司我們要的不多，第一，利率要明確。第二，不可以有暴力討債的狀況。第三，你要借他能力負擔得起的債務。只有這麼簡單的要求，但是97年到現在將近16年，當年是因為有非常嚴重的卡債問題，那時候做的是銀行，現在幾乎叫什麼公司都可以融資，完全用賣東西的方法，假買賣真融資，所以融資專法我們會開公聽會，我們也希望主委能夠聽聽財委會各個委員的意見、各界的意見，就這個法案，我相信不管金管會要不要提版本，財政委員會、立法院這邊一定會有版本，而且一定會審查，也麻煩主委做好準備。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個問題是我們現在有非常多的詐騙案件，金管會是最前端的，在詐騙案的偵查上，我常說重點是民眾不在乎有沒有抓到詐欺犯，民眾在乎的是他的錢追不追得回來，我們現在都抓得到詐欺犯，但是都找不回錢。現在問題就在於資訊的交換速度夠不夠快，資訊交換不夠快，錢就轉出去了，抓到那個人頭戶，就算警示了也沒有用，所以我們現在要比賽的就是誰比較快。主委，在打詐的效能上面，現在提了打詐專法，但是有很多的部分其實在金管會前端就要做好處理。目前的虛幣市場、虛幣業者，我們都讓它們自律，沒有納入管理，接下去他們現在碰到的問題是一樣的，他們跟調查局、刑事局各自都有聯絡，但是沒有任何一個平臺跟銀行聯絡；他們跟警察165也要靠傳真才能聯絡，接下去可能跟法務部、高檢署有聯絡，但是也是個別的聯絡。我要做的事、需要主委協助的是怎樣把這些前端和後端，尤其是法務部最後追蹤的部分，大家一起做一個打詐平臺，而這個平臺需要金管會作前端最重要的連結和串連，包括現在沒有納管的虛幣市場，你可以了解一下這件事情嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這點沒問題，這個從我還沒上任就非常密切的關注，而且金管會也被賦予滿多的任務。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在很多在國外的虛幣業者想在臺灣申請，目前為止有25家合法申請、有洗錢聲明的，很多很多都是沒有的，可是它們怎樣納入我們的管理、納入我們的平臺，進入我們的平臺可以協助政府一起來打詐，我相信這是金管會接下來很重要的任務，不是放任它在外面，它想幫忙幫不上，有警示帳戶利用這些虛幣相關的平臺洗錢，甚至來做詐騙，會越來越多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：擴大納管我們也在努力中。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望這個打詐平臺不是單一讓民眾或業者自己來，前端的金管會和後端的法務部大家必須要合作，而且要連結。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個沒問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後簡單問一下，金管會5月15日發了一個公文，它說現在因為太多的網紅在銷售或從事廣告營業行為，包括賣ETF、鼓勵大家投資這個、投資那個，所以投信投顧公會要對網紅進行管理，是吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在由公會訂了一個行為規範。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想問一下，什麼叫作網紅？主委不知道？它的定義是什麼？常態性於網路上發表資訊內容供大眾閱覽並以此營利者，就叫網紅，就是要賺錢的啦！有很多人、很多新聞媒體、很多相關的報導其實都在報導股票最近多好多好，這樣算不算網紅？不算？"],["彭主任委員金隆：抱歉，我還要再研究一下。"],["黃委員珊珊：局長要不要回答？我是說你們這個東西的定義，怎麼管？管誰？"],["張局長振山：如果涉及到投資有價證券，這是我們在規範的。"],["黃委員珊珊：都要規範？"],["張局長振山：所以我們會要求業者跟網紅簽約。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果他沒有營利呢？他就一直在說這個很不錯這樣而已呢？算不算網紅？"],["張局長振山：這個很不錯其實就有點鼓勵的概念。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果說最近買ETF很不錯，然後怎樣怎樣，這種人算不算？我的意思是如果要規範，就要清楚的規範，但是你現在的定義有點怪怪的。我的意思是要管，因為太多人在做，而且每一個都說他是投資專家，我們投信投顧是要有證照的，是要申請廣告字號的。"],["張局長振山：所以先前我們請投信公會要自力研究一個規範方式、自律方式報到局裡面來，我們上個禮拜核備它們了。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我們希望導正國內的投資市場，但是一樣還是要管得到、管得有道理，然後能夠管得住，而不是訂出來說你這樣就是網紅，這樣子有點可怕啦！很可能會讓很多人覺得我一下子就落到這裡面而受罰，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：明確有效，對。謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個問題是剛剛很多委員問到有關當沖降稅的延長，我剛剛聽到主委說繼續延5年，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去我們已經發函給財政部表達這樣的看法。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部的回函同意了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有同意？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下去會是什麼樣的結果？"],["彭主任委員金隆：接下來我們還會再跟財政部討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以行政院還會作政策性的決定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要行政院來決定。"],["黃委員珊珊：我對於當沖降稅沒有個人的意見，但是我們看到以前的主委、你在政大的同事王儷玲教授她主張，如果長期投資的，要不要給他一些優惠。我們現在當沖證交稅減半，但是我們對於長期投資反而沒有鼓勵，這不是很奇怪嗎？主委理解我的意思嗎？如果我持有這個股票3年、5年，是不是反而可以給他一些優惠？這可能是金管會可以去思考的，也就是說，鼓勵當沖減半好像鼓勵投機，對於長期持有的，反而沒有任何的優惠，這個可能是接下去金管會在決定當沖是否減半或常態化減半，很多人主張常態化減半、鼓勵臺灣的投資市場，但也有人說這是鼓勵投機，相對的是，我想問對長期投資反而是不是應該有些態度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我請局長把現有的狀況跟委員報告一下。"],["張局長振山：跟委員報告，現在業者其實有提出TISA的概念，我們也在研究中，也看看財政部的態度，就是長期投資在租稅上要給他優惠鼓勵。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，所以不是只有當沖降稅，而是長期投資給他租稅優惠也是政府的一種態度，最重要的是我們希望他長期持有，對於國內的金融體系反而比較穩定。最重要的是我希望新的主委有新的氣象，過去可能有一些我認為比較保守的地方，我希望新主委到任之後，我們可以從業界的角度、從比較不是那麼官方的角度來重新看我們將來金融管理的制度，最重要的是希望主委能夠順利推展業務，我們希望為臺灣做點事。謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝黃委員。"],["主席：請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.51596875,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":4.283468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.283468750000001,"end":4.519718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":8.974718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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抱歉我還要再研究一下局長要不要回答有沒有我們請我們局長來我的意思是說你這個東西的定義網紅怎麼管管誰管怎麼管這個剛講如果是涉及到投資有價證件這個是我們要規範的都要規範對所以我們會要求業者你要跟網紅簽約但如果他沒有盈利呢他就一直在說這個很不錯這樣子而已呢"},{"start":436.252,"end":450.853,"text":"算不算網紅?這個人不錯其實就有點鼓勵的概念了我最近買那個ETF很不錯喔然後怎麼樣怎麼樣那這種人算不算我的意思是如果要規範就清楚的規範但是如果你現在這樣的定義有點怪怪的啦"},{"start":451.867,"end":476.313,"text":"我的意思是說要管因為太多人在做而且每一個都說他是投資專家我們投信投顧是要有證照的是要申請廣告字號的跟委員報告所以先前我們請投信工會他要致力研究一個規範方式致力方式報到局裡面來我們在上個禮拜核配他們的對我們希望導正國內的投資市場但是一樣還是要管得到"},{"start":477.973,"end":478.754,"text":"我剛剛聽到主委是說繼續延誤年是嗎?"},{"start":503.35,"end":513.764,"text":"過去我們已經發函給財政部表達這樣的看法那財政部的回函同意了嗎?沒有同意那接下去會是什麼樣的結果?"},{"start":515.677,"end":538.005,"text":"接下來我們還會再跟財政部再做一些討論所以行政院還會做政策性的決定這要行政院來決定我對於當沖降稅沒有個人的意見但是我們看到以前的主委您在政大的同事王立寧教授他主張如果長期投資的要不要給他一些優惠"},{"start":539.585,"end":546.157,"text":"我們現在當天不用證交稅減半但是我們對於長期投資反而沒有鼓勵這不是很奇怪嗎?"},{"start":548.086,"end":569.562,"text":"主委理解我的意思嗎?如果我持有了這個股票三年五年是不是反而可以給他一些優惠這個可能是金管會可以去思考的也就是說我鼓勵當沖減半好像我們鼓勵投機我們對於長期持有的反而沒有任何的優惠這個可能是接下去金管會在你決定當沖不當沖減半的部分"},{"start":571.704,"end":572.625,"text":"可以請局長把現有的狀況跟您說明一下嗎?"},{"start":590.123,"end":590.383,"text":"市局長"},{"start":620.203,"end":620.363,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":647.422,"end":649.616,"text":"現在請吳立法 吳委員"}]}},{"id":"152795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dd3561062ad5f4f6e3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d201762a95f0ae2b031845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:56:48 - 11:03:30","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":402,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:03:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:56:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時56分）謝謝主席，我想要請副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實剛才也有委員問到，現在的世界趨勢就是AI，生成式AI的市場規模越來越大，我們希望臺灣也可以在這一塊有所發展，從產發署的資料來看，我看到目前每年最保守都會有3,600個以上的人力缺口，請問如果我們有這樣子的需求的時候，在教育是教育部門，教育部的劉司長是不是也有來？在教育部門或是其他的研修課程部門有沒有辦法提供我們所需的人才？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，其實我們在過去幾年來，因為數位轉型也不只是現在在AI才發生，所以我們在高教這邊是全力擴充STEM系所的招生名額和教學能量，的確有一個具體的數字，同時也鼓勵非資訊科系的系所開設跨領域數位科技微學程，協助他可以跨行、跨業，因為將來AI會運用到各個產業部門。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們說有相關的數據，是不是可以說明一下？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有，可以提供給委員。第二個，其實我們知道教育部有通過特別條例，針對國家重點領域研究學院、相關的半導體學院，中間有很多都是可以培養AI人才，還有產學合作，在各區設立區域產業人才培訓基地共計12個，因此可以因應每個區域需要的產業人才來培訓。另外，就是今天審查的人才延攬法案，我們也希望從國外積極延攬海外的人才來臺灣，比如，「晶創臺灣方案」裡面有很多的經費就是希望把國外的新創，尤其是AI這一塊的人才延攬到臺灣來，甚至在東歐也設立了一個攬才據點，政府事實上是多管齊下。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是多管齊下到底有沒有效果，在過去的一段期間以來，效果到底是如何？如果效果不彰的時候，我們要怎麼改變我們的策略？今天的修法是不是就可以符合我們的需求？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是不是可以達到我們需要的？因為它的需求是一直在擴增的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們的供給是增加，可能永遠都有缺額，可是我們會儘量設法把那個缺額縮短及縮小，這個是我們政策的目標。今天的修法裡面其實有一個很重要的地方，就是我們會希望這些人才都可以留在臺灣，所以我們針對得到碩士或博士學位的，尤其是特定的外國專業人才，在臺灣連續居留的時間，我們用折抵的方式讓它縮短，可以提早拿到我們的永居資格，今天的修法大概是這樣子。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果是他在就讀當中的實習經驗呢？產學合作的實習經驗是否可以也一併納入考量，或者用什麼樣的方式給予折抵，這樣是不是比較能解決目前我們面臨的困境呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上我們對於在學的僑外生有一些實習的規範，當然我們也要顧慮到他們的工作時數太多的話，其實有點像是假就學、真實習，我們會怕這樣的情況。可是一旦他取得學位，以我們現行的規定，僑外生評點制度是100%，如果他有意願，絕對可以留在臺灣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為這牽涉到要不要攬才及留才的部分，我才會想是不是要以實習或者讓這些碩博士生及有特殊專業的人士留在臺灣共同發展，你們評估呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然，如果是在學中間，實習是很重要的。如果他是一個真正AI相關我們需要的高級人才，我們會媒介國內的企業，讓他有實習的機會，因為他要是認識這些企業，留在臺灣的機率又更大……"],["謝委員衣鳯：相對大，所以才會有所謂的產學合作。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：當然也有可能有你所謂比較負面的效應出現，不過如果只考慮負面的效應，就不把相關的政策加以研擬，也許我們就沒有辦法擴大、增加不管是AI或者其他相關科技的人才，這是不是我們目前應該要著重的部分？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員提醒我們在學的這一端要如何增加他們拿到學位後留在臺灣的誘因，還有實習的便利性，我們會檢討。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是產學合作，真的讓他們能夠適才適用，協助臺灣的科技發展與經濟發展相輔相成，我認為這才是真正好的政策應該做的，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","接下來我們請林宜瑾委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.90784375,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.30784375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.88846875,"end":62.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.03596875000001,"end":77.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.50409375000001,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.88971875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.76221875,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.19096875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.03034375,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.97534375000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.04284375,"end":113.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.16096875000001,"end":169.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.48159375,"end":117.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.44846875000002,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.50721875000002,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.16909375,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.21971875,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.30409375000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.36096875,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.02284375000002,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.51971875,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.14346875,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.31221875,"end":198.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.67846875,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.27659375000002,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.65034375000002,"end":255.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.21471875,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.75471875000002,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.02471875000003,"end":281.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.11971875,"end":270.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.14471875000004,"end":271.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":282.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.07971875000004,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.08284375,"end":289.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.06784375,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.08409375,"end":308.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.10096875,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.62409375000004,"end":308.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.67471875,"end":311.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.54346875000005,"end":316.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.41596875000005,"end":322.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.00159375000004,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.68909375000004,"end":329.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.54909375,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.83596875,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.98721875,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.25284375,"end":335.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.79221875,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.62284375,"end":344.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.97659375,"end":348.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.02409375,"end":385.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.34409375,"end":372.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.47909375,"end":372.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.23659375,"end":385.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.25346875,"end":385.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.84409375,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.96221875000003,"end":398.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.70034375,"end":388.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.31971875000005,"end":393.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.15909375,"end":395.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.23034375000003,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.84159375,"end":401.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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我是說因為這牽涉到要不要就是攬才跟留才的這個部分嘛那我才會想說就是說以實習當然就是說是不是要以實習或者是來讓這些碩博士生以及就是有特殊專業的人士留在台灣那發共同發展喔那是不是你覺得如果你們評估咧"},{"start":309.393,"end":329.012,"text":"﹗當然就是如果還在在學中間實習是很重要的,我們會扮演那個他在如果他是一個真正AI的相關的這些我們需要的高級的這些人才,我們會媒介我們國內的企業讓他有實習的機會,因為他要是認識這些企業他留在"},{"start":329.633,"end":346.527,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":346.527,"end":368.473,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":368.493,"end":383.5,"text":"我想委員提醒我們就在學的這一端我怎麼樣增加他留在台灣以後拿到學會後留在台灣的誘因這一塊那還有他實習的一些便利性我想我們會來檢討"},{"start":384.36,"end":402.432,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"152794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d60fc1b9c9929bc6ec1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d201737e0100f850ec7665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:51:04 - 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案 規定限度內要授權令於法律定之,才是正確的作法。」"},{"start":301.124,"end":301.544,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財"}]}},{"id":"152793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3493daa9e5eb689dc1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d20171366b725e1e081535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:44:15 - 10:50:59","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 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- 10:43:51","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":390,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:43:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:37:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時37分）主席、與會同仁。請內政部次長。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["吳委員琪銘：次長，今天我們要審不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案，以及兩位委員所提出的土地法第十四條明定古蹟土地不得為私有，本席認同，還有一條是蔡易餘委員的第七十三條之一第三項，兩個提案本席都予以尊重。請問次長，因為他們兩位所提出來的土地法都是有他們的道理，尤其很多畸零地要公開拍賣，但是周邊的毗鄰地所有人很多都沒有得到通知，那會產生怎樣的情形？繼承人絕對會通知得到，但是毗鄰地所有人有很多都沒有辦法去通知，這就是有一個漏洞，那就變成怎樣？變成一些屬於所謂的「蟑螂」，他們就會去炒作，這一點就是我們今天下午所要討論的。請問次長，針對第十四條，古蹟不能列為私有地，這個部分你的看法如何？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝召委。委員所垂詢有關於古蹟土地這部分，本部敬表認同，因為公營事業跟行政法人基本上是由國家所任命或者是編制，所以基本上，在法的實質上它還是屬於國家所有、國家在管制，也就是全民共有之資產，剛才也跟幾位委員報告過，古蹟最後的認定跟處分是由文化資產保護法來規範，所以相關的古蹟並不得隨意的轉變，除非依據文化資產保護法有任何的變動。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的、好的。針對蔡易餘的第七十三條之一第三項，尤其是毗鄰地所有人的通知，通知這個部分是不是國產署還有地政司一定要趕快去研究，才不會造成很多毗鄰地要過路的問題、很多糾紛的問題，甚至有不法炒作的問題，這才能一併來解決。沒關係，這部分等一下我們會討論，我們一併來討論。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：次長，「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」是我過去所提出的，全台有7,500座寺廟，將近750公頃的土地，因為當初沒有辦法完成寺廟登記，所以衍生很多以自然人登記的問題，在上一屆是採用借名登記，就是目前第五條的規定，申請期限只有2年，這是比較急迫性的，即將在今年6月9號就到期了，本席有提出修正動議再延長2年，這點我請次長來回答。"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員的垂詢，有關於以自然人登記這部分，本部會再做進一步評估，我們會依照委員的建議審慎討論看如何執行。"],["吳委員琪銘：在全國發生很多問題，那就是繼承的問題、登記的問題，因為寺廟是廣大信眾所捐出來的錢去蓋的，而當時沒辦法用寺廟登記，都是用自然人的名義，但是以自然人登記之後發生主持過世、繼承的問題，於是就跟廟方持對立立場，所以這是要解決全國寺廟的問題。本席現在手上的資料有2,476間，截至113年4月底有登記的只有533家宗教團體提出不動產登記，登記的數量還是沒有很多，比例上還是很懸殊，所以未來勢必還是要再延長，讓他們取得登記，才不會造成以後寺廟又有糾紛產生。因為寺廟屬於公眾的，並不是私人的占有，而我們政府要做的就是替他們來解決這個問題。"],["董次長建宏：向委員報告，我們已經督促相關縣市政府積極推動辦理，請他們行文給各宗教團體跟宮廟，請他們趕快來進行登記，因為到6月9號還有一段時間，我們會強力去推動。"],["吳委員琪銘：6月9號？現在已經5月底了。"],["董次長建宏：我知道，針對委員說的延長年限這部分，我們部內也會儘快來討論。"],["吳委員琪銘：一定要快，今天已經二十幾號了。"],["董次長建宏：我知道。"],["吳委員琪銘：6月9號還有一段時間。"],["董次長建宏：是，我瞭解。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以一定要很積極，我們趕快來促成啦！"],["董次長建宏：會，我們趕快來討論。"],["吳委員琪銘：讓全國寺廟都能夠取得保障，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委，也謝謝次長跟官員，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：下一位張智倫委員、張智倫委員、張智倫委員不在。","下一位李柏毅委員。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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有將近750公頃的土地因為當初沒有辦法完成寺廟登記 所以有很多問題會影響自然人登記的問題 然後在我們上一屆採用我們的屆民登記"},{"start":207.915,"end":219.043,"text":"就是目前第五條的規定申請期限只有兩年那現在這是比較急迫性齁即將在今年的6月9號就到期了"},{"start":223.134,"end":242.789,"text":"提出修正同意會再延續延長兩年這點我請處長你來回答感謝委員的垂詢那有關於相關與自然法、自然人登記這部分本部會再做進一步的評估那我們會依照委員的建議來審慎來討論看如何執行這樣子因為在"},{"start":247.54,"end":247.86,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘"},{"start":270.512,"end":270.932,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘"},{"start":288.837,"end":292.578,"text":"二、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具 ．則不予審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具 ．則不予審查委員吳琪銘"},{"start":314.444,"end":319.747,"text":"沒有很多啦所以說在這比例還是有懸殊所以說在這未來我們還是勢必要再延長讓他們一些期的編輯還沒去執行醫療事業大家又有這個糾紛出來醫療事業是屬於公眾嘛不是私人的戰友嘛我們政府就要做的就是讓我們可以替他們解決這個問題"},{"start":338.616,"end":358.225,"text":"發言委員吳琪銘說,相關的我們已經也督促那個相關縣市政府積極去推動辦理。請他們行文給各宗教團體跟宮廟,請他們趕快來進行登記。因為到6月9日還有一段時間,我們會強力去推動。6月19日已經5月底了。我針對那個委員講的延長年限這部分,我們部內也會儘快來討論。"},{"start":366.269,"end":367.33,"text":"謝謝吳琪銘召委也謝謝我們次長跟官員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dd6a5853db02fdf33c1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d201770d53a0d6a0ba6b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:28:13 - 10:37:14","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":541,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:37:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:28:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":439,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時28分）謝謝主席。本席想請內政部次長，還有法務部的參事，以及衛福部心理健康司的簡任技正。"],["主席：好，謝謝。請董次長、法務部參事。"],["徐委員欣瑩：三位好。今天我們在委員會討論有關不動產估價師部分條文的修正，最重要的就是提到第八條第一項的第一款到第四款，特別是針對第二款的部分，對於不發給、撤銷或廢止開業證書的情形裡面，為了落實保障罹患精神疾病或身心障礙者的工作權益，我看到內政部表示贊同，司法院也表示尊重，本席其實也是贊同這樣的修法方向，但是如果把第二款刪除的話，可能會有一些疑慮，所以本席想在這邊就教，首先請問衛福部李技正，難道沒有不動產估價師的身心狀況已經達到無法執業，可是又還沒有達到監護宣告跟輔助宣告的情況？如果我們把第二款刪除的話，那這種情形怎麼辦？因為不動產估價師的精神或身心狀況一旦有這種情形，他在幫民眾處理這種不動產的時候，這個糾紛……因為我們的法令是這樣定，所以最後就變成民間他們自己有很多爭執，這個情況怎麼辦？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：謝謝委員的垂詢。有關於大院所定的版本，其實在其他相關的法律也有類似的立法例，目前對於身心障礙相關的專門職業人員，法律的規定其實有兩種立法例，如果說這個專門職業人員他執行業務的結果會間接影響到當事人權益的話，那就會像會計師法、地政士法一樣，就會把這個身心障礙的這個直接就刪除；另外有一種立法例……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說會把什麼刪除？就不讓他執業嗎？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：對、對、對，就是類似今天委員所提的版本，把第二款就直接刪除，還有另外一種立法例，如果這個專門職業人員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我現在就是說第二款刪除了，可是他還沒達到輔助宣告跟監護宣告，這樣的情形他可以執業嗎？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：所以我就要跟委員報告還有另外一種立法體例，就是說如果他會直接影響到當事人權益的話，現行的驗光人員法裡面會做條文的修正，如果他有客觀……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你現在講驗光人員，可是我在講不動產估價師啊！"],["李簡任技正炳樟：對、對、對，我是把它的立法例跟委員做說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有、沒有，我不是談立法例，我現在就針對不動產估價師，你沒有回答我的問題，但因為我時間不多，請你用書面回答。"],["李簡任技正炳樟：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著本席想請教法務部的廖參事，家人聲請監護宣告或輔助宣告，那是為了本人的利益，不是為了公共或他人的利益，對不對？但是檢察官聲請監護處分是為公共或他人利益，對吧？"],["廖參事江憲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在一樣的問題就是說，把第二款刪除，但是他還不到監護宣告或是輔助宣告的時候，其實這樣是有精神狀況，而且會影響其他人權益的時候怎麼辦？"],["廖參事江憲：委員好。跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：簡答。"],["廖參事江憲：委員顧慮的這個問題確實是可能存在的，就是說他有精神方面的傷害……"],["徐委員欣瑩：簡答，你們這樣真的是浪費我的時間……"],["廖參事江憲：但是他有可能是沒有進入宣告的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，最後我想請教次長，現在如果發生這些衝突，請問內政部你能扮演……等於說對不動產估價師執業水準，你能夠掌握他的執業情況嗎？如果發生業務過失，導致他人權益損害的時候，誰來負起損害賠償責任？"],["董次長建宏：現在我們會邀請相關直轄市或相關的縣市主管機關會邀請專科醫師或組成小組來認定……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，因為第二款刪除，所以他已經……就是他有狀況可是他的情況沒有到那麼嚴重，可是他一樣會損害到人民財產權益的時候，那誰來負責？你就甩鍋給民眾，你們自己去協調？"],["董次長建宏：沒有，跟委員報告，我們可以參考律師法第九條的規範，我們依據那個規範來做立法例的修正，下午在討論的時候，我們來跟委員報告。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。再來，我們昨天發生2起案件，從新聞上我們看到一個是臺中中捷，次長，雖然您剛上任，但沒辦法，你今天來到我們委員會，我還是要詢問，昨天我們整個警政署對於這樣一個情形，我們是不是有針對……我們看到從102年到112年，因為大眾交通工具站場，就是在大眾交通工具的環境，傷人案件數、傷亡數、犯罪人數逐年增加、越來越多，整個警政署對於隨機傷人、殺人的犯罪模式專案評估，到底有沒有做出一個有效的預防方案？"],["董次長建宏：我請我們警政署同仁回復。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，請簡答。"],["林副局長信雄：是，委員好。針對隨機殺人案件，其實這10年來只發生過7件，其中發生在交通站體的只有1件而已，這裡面數字顯示的部分，可能是包含車站或周圍地區，所以以112年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你的意思是說，因為件數少，你們現在針對這個部分還沒有做任何一個犯罪模式的評估？"],["林副局長信雄：不是，報告委員，我們一直有在評估，也在進行，所以對於站體周遭，我們都請轄區要去加強巡邏。另外，我們在相關站體像鐵路警察局或地方有捷運警察隊，它本身在比較大的站體都有駐警。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，反正昨天這種傷害已經發生了。再來昨天還有一個新聞，就是有一個殺人未遂犯簡姓男子，他趁著放風的時候逃脫，現在有4個縣市已經宣布校園停止開放，但是因為臺灣是一日生活圈，他可能坐高鐵就直接到高雄或臺中了，所以像這種情況，到底警政署……現在人民都生活在這種不安跟恐懼當中，不要說這種隨機殺人案件少，但是一旦發生你也沒得預防啊！"],["林副局長信雄：是，跟委員報告，針對在外的，就是屬於在治療中脫逃的部分，他一旦發生之後，我們立即會發起聯防機制，所以在發生的當下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他逃脫2天了，2天還是3天了，我看是5月19號逃脫的，今天22號了，那你們現在抓到了沒？"],["林副局長信雄：目前還在追緝當中，因為他的行蹤也不斷在轉換交通工具，昨天的部分是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們在公共運輸系統整個環境沒有得監控就對了？有沒有考慮人臉辨識？我們看很多電影都有，現在科技很進步，我們現在有科技執法，但都是罰民眾、非常遵守法令或者非常善良的老百姓，但是這些暴露在生活環境中有危險因子的，你們有沒有想辦法？"],["林副局長信雄：這必須法律所允許。"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝徐委員，時間已經超過3次，謝謝徐委員的質詢、謝謝各位官員。","接下來我們請吳琪銘召委，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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所以這個逃脫兩天了。兩天還是三天了。"},{"start":489.995,"end":509.196,"text":"我看是5月19逃脫的。今天22日了。所以那你們現在抓到了沒?目前還在追緝當中。因為他行蹤也不斷的在轉換交通工具。你們在公共運輸系統整個的環境沒有得監控就對了?"},{"start":511.082,"end":532.049,"text":"有沒有考慮人臉辨識我們看很多電影都有現在科技很進步我們現在科技執法但是都是罰民眾這個非常遵守或者非常善良的老百姓但是這些暴露在生活環境中有危險因子的你們有沒有想辦法"},{"start":532.629,"end":534.972,"text":"徐委員謝謝徐委員時間已經超過三次謝謝徐委員的質詢謝謝各位官員那接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"152790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d0b3e2c01a51a23fc6fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d20173ff16b6b2a727ff65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:48:39 - 11:00:00","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":681,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T11:00:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:48:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時48分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。"],["李部長遠：你好。"],["張委員雅琳：非常歡迎你來到文化部，因為你自己本身應該就是一個非常瞭解文化的文化人，我就接續剛剛宜瑾委員的幾個議題，我先快速的講到轉型正義這一件事情，因為我過去在民間也是有在寫這些有關於白色恐怖走讀的腳本給孩子，中正紀念堂其實也是我一個腳本的主題。這裡面我想要跟部長討論，因為部長剛剛講到一個非常重要的重點，就是大家如何凝聚共識，我想轉型正義走到現在這個階段，我們應該要走向第二個部分，就是處理威權遺緒的部分，威權遺緒可能有幾種不同的處理方法，可能是像宜瑾委員剛剛說的部分，但是也有另外一種方法，即我們是不是可以做更多的人權教育？我們必須要有一些更批判性的思考，去面對現在的政治或社會的各種局面，或是我們收到的假訊息，所以這個批判性思考也是聯合國兒童基金會從2016年開始推動的。但是我發現一件事情，就是我們國家人博物館的預算，以前其實是有兩次的教育推廣，但是現在我從111年看起來有1,290萬，112年我查不到第二期的資料，如果沒有第二期，那就是946萬，113年我現在只有看到規劃一期1,102萬。我想如果我們要走到處理社會共識，這樣子的金額跟次數似乎是不夠，也不符合民間的期待，所以我想要瞭解，是我們的金額也降低了、次數也降低了嗎？如果是，原因是什麼？"],["李部長遠：這一點我還沒搞清楚為什麼會降低。"],["張委員雅琳：那可以請瞭解的人上來說明嗎？"],["洪館長世芳：我跟委員做個報告，原則上以往我們一年是兩次，後來有團體反映，我們第二期的執行時間太短了，所以我們就把整個整併成一年一期，經費原則上大概是八、九百萬，113年度事實上確實也申請了蠻多的，所以我們調勻了一些經費過來，所以113年度可以看得出來我們核定的是一千一百多萬。"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是跟111年比起來還是變少了耶！如果是一期來說，我也認同，因為我過去也是申請這個補助案的人，所以我瞭解的確在第二期執行上面真的是非常的緊湊，所以你們要這樣做，我完全沒有任何意見，但是金額上面真的就是變少了。"],["洪館長世芳：我們人權館的經費預算確實是比較緊……"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分的話是預算不夠嗎？是需要部長再來協助嗎？還是怎麼樣？因為剛剛我們要講，要處理威權遺緒這件事情，社會共識很重要，如果我們沒有足夠的資源去滾動、去做這些人權教育，要如何走進下一個階段？轉型正要如何繼續下去？這一部分是需要部長的支持嗎？"],["洪館長世芳：我跟委員報告，我們目前也有在爭取促轉基金來協助這一部分的工作，我們會再來努力爭取經費。"],["張委員雅琳：好。這個部分，我希望可以積極地去爭取促轉基金，而我也希望運用上面可以帶給大家更多的想像，謝謝，請回。","再來，我也想要繼續來請教部長、非常瞭解有多少鴿子的部長。中正紀念堂裡面以前有個戲水、會噴水的地方，都會一直噴水，以前因為臺北真的非常非常的炎熱，到夏天很多小孩就會去那邊戲水，但前幾年因為疫情的關係，它關閉了，現在似乎也沒有要開起來讓孩子戲水，我想要請部長來研究，這個部分是不是可以提供孩子一個戲水的空間？把噴水池重新變成讓孩子在夏天，尤其是在這個氣候變遷的狀況之下，可以讓他去那邊戲水，這件事情是不是可行呢？"],["李部長遠：大概是因為疫情的關係，不敢輕易地開放，我也帶我的孩子去玩過，也帶我孫子去玩過，你問我什麼時候開放？我還不知道，可不可以請……"],["張委員雅琳：可不可以請負責的人來說明？就是那個噴泉廣場之類的。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，我們來研議，如果沒有什麼問題，我們就開放。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，我希望今年就可以開放，因為真的非常熱，謝謝。","我們再回來講，也是一樣臺語的政策。相信部長也非常清楚，作為一個主責單位，因為我自己也是一個講臺語的家庭，所以我自己非常在乎這件事情。我想跟部長先討論一件事情，我們國家整體語言發展方案的預算一年有64億，其中臺語總預算只占了15億，大概23.43%，這個預算到底夠不夠？我覺得這個部分我們可以再來討論。但是我想要先討論一件事情，我們放在影視跟表演藝術上面的總金額達到了十億多，等於在這個領域上占了將近八、九成的預算。現在其實要講臺語的文化，有一個很重要的東西，像最近公視也做了很多很棒、很優質的臺語或是客語的節目，可是我看文創發展只有兩千多萬，我不曉得這兩個部分是有做一個整體性的思考嗎？當文策院或是民間有一些很好的漫畫、故事時，我是不是可以把它串聯起來，讓它變成影視發展的一個整合性計畫呢？你們現在有做這件事情嗎？"],["李部長遠：我先回答剛才為什麼會比較偏向影視，因為當初成立了公共電視臺語臺，委員應該稍微瞭解，一個電視臺要成立跟拍片，它的預算是非常高的，未來我想我們會調整改用其他的方式來推動臺語，譬如臺語家庭，還有臺語的其他表演。"],["張委員雅琳：應該說，部長，其實我並沒有反對我們要投資這麼高，因為之前我質詢史哲部長的時候，我也非常認同這是一個空戰的部分，這個空戰的資源一定要撒下去，一定要去海撒，只是我現在是希望這個資源是不是可以跟我們的文創發展整個掛勾，做一個整體性的計畫，讓一些好的文本進來。像現在很多韓劇其實都是從線上漫畫開始去發展的，把它變成是動漫、變成是影視劇本，然後後來又發展更多的IP周邊。所以這是我希望文化部去做的事情，把每一個投資的資源從一個點變成整個面去撒，這樣才能夠讓更多人聽到臺語、聽到客語，聽到這些語言，喜歡這些事情，喜歡這個文化，進而去學習它。這部分我希望部長可以給我們一個計畫好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：就是你們怎麼去做這整個串聯，這個計畫多久可以提供給我們？我想請教一下要多久？"],["李部長遠：三個月……"],["張委員雅琳：兩個月可以嗎？好不好？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：我們可以從這個方向去研究。"],["李部長遠：兩個月。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝部長。","再來，之前我也有講，剛剛已經是海撒了嘛，下面的人要怎麼去承接？親子其實是一個很重要的平臺，我們現在有母語學習家庭跟母語傳承家庭，之前我也有質詢部長，對於母語傳承家庭，我們是不是有更高的一些任務給他？除了只是給他獎金外，可是他只有在家裡講，他能不能走到社區去講？我不曉得現在文化部在這個部分有沒有進一步的規劃？"],["李部長遠：這個部分是不是請……"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，這個傳承家庭的部分，我們現在就是希望他除了在家裡講臺語之外，如果他願意成為所謂的共學家庭，因為我們會賦予他們責任，他們可以來跟文化部申請說，他要在他的社區裡面推動10個或是15個家庭，他們要一起來共學的話，這個部分我們會給他經費的資助，還有包括場地的租借，或者是聘請老師……"],["張委員雅琳：應該是老師的講師費。"],["李次長靜慧：像講師費等，我們都可以來支持他們。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，聽起來這個目前已經有具體的計畫了，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["張委員雅琳：所以什麼時候會開始構這個計畫？經費、預算方面，什麼時候會讓民間都知道這件事情？"],["李次長靜慧：我們下禮拜還會再進行一次的諮詢會議，把整個臺語家庭的推動計畫跟臺語界的夥伴們一起討論好了以後，希望在8月份能夠正式公告，9月份上路。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。延續這一題，我們之前其實有說，需要更頻繁地去使用臺語，他們可能是說故事爸媽或是推廣活動或是一些友善環境，可是因為之前也有臺語家庭來反映說，可能是臺語生活節或者是一個臺語的繪本活動，可是他進去的時候卻聽不到什麼臺語，可能只有百分之五十的語言是使用臺語。變成是已經在講臺語的，他想要更進化、更提升自己的語言能力，他想要創造這個環境給小孩，但他沒有這個空間。所以我之前有跟文化部討論，我們的活動應該要做一些標示，可能是資深級、優級的語言能力、專家級的語言能力或者初級的語言能力的這種標示，讓民眾可以去選擇，而不是全部都是變成初級的版本，這個部分不曉得文化部研究的成果是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：今年度的各個補助項目，像說故事爸媽或者是推廣活動，或者是接受我們補助的臺語主流化的表演節目，我們都有要求他們要標示這是一個純臺語的演出，或者如果是臺華混合或臺客混合的時候，在比例上面也能夠做出一個適當的說明，這樣可以讓參與的朋友們做一個正確的選擇。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個部分是什麼時候會開始執行？"],["李次長靜慧：今年度就會開始執行。"],["張委員雅琳：也是8月的時候嗎？一起構嗎？好。","最後還是要再請部長一下，畢竟部長之前擔任過華視的總經理，過去又在這個領域上有非常多跨媒體、跨領域的，不管是文學作品、影視作品、歌謠等等的一些整合，我非常希望部長可以帶著您的專業，把臺語的環境、客語的環境，以及這些更好的優質作品創造出來，還有小孩子的版本，兒童從這個時候開始去認識這個語言，對兒童來說是更為重要，尤其臺灣非常欠缺給兒童的文本，拜託請部長一定要去支持，謝謝大家，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝張雅琳委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.09284375,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":19.0322187500000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謝謝那延續這一題還有就是說我們之前呢其實是有講說我們需要有更平凡的去使用這一些我們台語的這個東西嘛那之前我們其實有講到就是說其實他們可能是說故事的爸媽或是推廣活動或是一些友善魂境可是因為之前也有台語的家庭來反映說他們可能這是像台語生活節或是這是一個台語的會盆活動可是他進去的時候他聽不到可能只有50%不到的人"},{"start":566.68,"end":566.92,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":592.862,"end":598.45,"text":"民眾可以去選擇而不是說全部都是變成初級的版本這個部分我不曉得文化部研究的成果是什麼"},{"start":599.588,"end":624.045,"text":"目前我們今年度的各個補助項目像說故事爸媽或者是那些推廣活動或者是接受我們補助的台語主流化的表演節目我們都有要求他們要標示這是一個純台語的演出或者是如果是台華混合或台客混合的時候在比例上面也能夠做出一個適當的說明那這樣的話讓我們參與的朋友們可以做一個正確的選擇"},{"start":624.946,"end":649.354,"text":"所以在這個部分的話是什麼時候已經開始會開始執行呢?對今年度就會開始執行今年度就會開始執行也是8月的時候嗎一起購嗎OK好那最後還是要再請部長一下就是說因為部長畢竟我覺得之前擔任過華視的總經理那過去又在這個領域上面有非常多跨媒體的跨領域不管是文學作品影視作品歌謠等等的一些整合我非常希望"},{"start":650.034,"end":650.094,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d0b3e2c01a51a23fc88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d201750fc6cff46c367e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:48:40 - 10:59:16","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:59:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:48:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":550,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時48分）謝謝召委，請彭主委，謝謝你。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["李委員彥秀：主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，辛苦了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會。"],["李委員彥秀：恭喜你有機會從彭教授變成彭主委，去落實很多你過去在學界所提的，包括我常常在報紙上看到你對於金管業務所發表的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我先問一下一個簡單的議題，這也是外界都會關注的，就是上路11年的補充保費制度，剛才有其他委員提到，現在健保署希望提高補充保費的費率，由現在的2.11%提高到3%，我想先請問主委，你個人對於這件事情的態度和意見是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我現在很難用個人的意見表達了，剛剛也有委員提過這個問題，我們會再跟衛福部來協商這個問題。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我為什麼會這樣問？我不是要考你，因為我覺得對這件事情，健保署的石崇良署長自頭至尾都沒有跟你溝通過，他根本連試算都還沒有試算過，自己就先放一則新聞在外面，你們是一個團隊耶，這是我要罵他的地方，你要告訴他說，你要對外宣布，你連試算都沒有試算過就對外宣布3%，對於長期投資的存股戶的影響很大耶！你一調到3%，對很多人來說是很多的。所以我覺得這件事情，我剛剛才問說，你的態度是什麼，你的想法是什麼？這個對於未來，我覺得各單位牽涉到跟你有關的業務，最起碼對你是尊重，要先問過我、先跟我討論過，你才能宣布。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可能適時來跟衛福部討論一下這個事情。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得你要跟石崇良講，不是你要怎麼樣就怎麼樣，你也要讓我有時間跟我存股戶去做溝通吧？你要有一個預告期，我也要知道外面的影響是什麼，或者我拜託他說，你不要一下調到2.11，你是不是調到2.5就好了？所以我剛才才問說你的態度是什麼？因為你的態度去決定你後面怎麼去跟他談，這是我要提醒主委的地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝！"],["李委員彥秀：這是第一點，好。主委，我看到剛剛很多委員問了很多議題，其實都在問你對於整個金管業務最主要的態度，因為我今天時間不多，我就繼續再問，因為我過去也關注到，在這段時間我有特別爬梳一下你過去在報紙，還有包括在學界討論的很多議題跟你的想法。我接下來要就保險資本監理到底應不應該跟IFRS的財報做脫鉤這件事情跟您做討論。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我們都非常清楚IFRS跟RBC是兩套制度，這兩套制度的財務表達方式其實都非常重要，這整件事情其實包括保險法加入淨值比之後，成為RBC比例等量的資本監理基準，從此財報的影響比資本監理其實更重要。財報其實是以短期線的淨變現觀點為基礎，到底這件事情是不是能忠實表達壽險超長期經營的週期，這個是你過去在報紙所討論過的。其實你在文章當中也提到，包括2008年金融海嘯的影響，當時我們的壽險業其實剛開始獲利非常多，但是金融海嘯發生的時候，我們9家壽險業淨值是負數，後面它馬上又彈回來；包括2020年的新冠疫情也是，當時2月份壽險的淨值其實是新高，後來短短一個月之後，整個淨值又跌了五千多億元，但是7月它又爬回來；包括2022年，我們大家都知道，美國暴力的升息其實也是，剛開始影響非常大。我舉這3個例子的事件，其實都要凸顯說，它可能對於財報有短期的變化，但是就長期而言，其實並不是如此，所以我想現在就當時的彭教授再回過頭來問你彭主委，對於我們資本監理到底應不應該跟IFRS的財報做脫鉤？我想請問主委您的意見。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個主要的概念是來自於美國的監理，我以前是會計系的，我剛上課的時候老師有跟我說過，其實會計根據使用者不同，編製的目的跟方法就完全不同，像我們的稅務會計跟財務會計就完全不同。委員剛才講過IFRS，它是做財務會計的表達，它主要使用者是投資人；但是我們的RBC也好，監理會計它主要是我們要來做長期清償能力，這兩個確實有點差異，這個部分在國內這一塊，我過去在當彭教授的時候，確實對這個東西提出很多看法。我覺得未來如果有可能的話，我有可能儘量去釐清這兩個差異，然後再來……"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我相信你來到這邊，賴總統也好，卓院長也好，從業界或從學界找你來，其實我覺得他一定有不同的想法，一定從過去你在文章上、你在學界、你的看法，他們才會找你來，就是你跟過去的黃主委可能有所不同的地方，這不同不一定是不好的不同。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員彥秀：而是要發揮的方向不一樣，所以你剛才對我的回答，其實我並不滿意。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，抱歉！我會改進。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我還是想知道，你到底作法上，因為我們都知道，短期的財報其實影響都是多，應該是做一個長期穩定，壽險業我們會希望看到是一個長期、穩定的方向，就是以長救短的結果，其實短期讓業者看起來有利，但是對於他們業界做長期規劃的決策，絕對是不良的影響，所以我剛剛才會問你問題，我一開始問你問題說，其實我們監理到底會不會跟財報做脫鉤，還是你會做一些微幅地調整？你方向到底是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我們過去用淨值比作為資本監理，確實在學理上面是有一些可討論的空間，這個東西如果……我覺得未來我可能會去持續調整它的內容。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，持續地調整，我們當作您只有4年的時間好了，一任4年嘛，你會在第幾年做好調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個隨時動態來做啦，對啊！"],["李委員彥秀：有時候在外面跟在裡面其實不一樣，底下的事務官有時候會給你很大的壓力，就是您在外面看的時候，你覺得應該這麼做，但是到裡面，我會擔心說你過去的理想被現實、現在的大環境所逼，你過去的理想覺得該調整了，被下面層層舊的這些法規、大家給你的建議，就動不了了，我覺得這會失去您來的意義。"],["彭主任委員金隆：若是對的事情，我們就要持續地做啦！"],["李委員彥秀：你會堅持地做，所以方向上你會做調整，也應該朝這部分做什麼樣的脫鉤方式，主委，我想知道你政策上走的方向，因為當你決定了政策方向，在這邊宣布了之後，下面的人就會跟著你動，你現在說：我想想看、我思考看看；底下就會跟你講：主委，最好不要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所有的監理指標都是要按照我們真實的狀況來調整，我想當然包括淨值比。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我最後一個問題，因為時間也快到了，目前保險業的資本適足性的管理辦法當中，有一個淨值比不得低於3%的規範，你會不會調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個是定在保險法裡面，它的剛性滿強，所以這部分的話，我們會……"],["李委員彥秀：或者我應該是這麼說，我知道你說剛性很強，但是賴總統從學界找你來，我不知道當時你有沒有在他的智囊團裡面，或者是卓院長看到你來，對你過去的想法大家應該是支持的。你剛剛提到剛性很強，但是找你來就是要來做調整跟改變，我想您也是要去做調整跟改變，所以我才問你說，剛性很強是一回事，但你的決心很重要，或者甚至你會不會用其他規範來進行監理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然……"],["李委員彥秀：你有沒有想法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分其實我覺得，這裡面應該這樣，還是我剛剛那句話，只要是正確的、對市場有利、對消費者有利，我們都要做啦！"],["李委員彥秀：你目前心中有沒有腹案？會不會有其他的政策去處理？就是它現在規範的淨值比不得低於3%，事實上在產業界他們是有不同的……我相信在這段時間你走訪了那麼多、跟公會做互動，你大概都很清楚知道問題在哪裡，所以你自己心裡有沒有腹案、有想法嗎？或者你現在覺得還不成熟，不敢在檯面上講，你有想法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然有想法，但我覺得容我把整個方案能夠比較可行的時候再跟大家報告。"],["李委員彥秀：好，所以你有想法，有其他想法或其他的政策方向可以去做進行規範跟監理，你是有腹案的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，我期待您可以發揮你的專長，可以去做一些改變，其實我今天還有很多其他政策性的問題要問，但今天真的時間太少。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的指正！"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝主委！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝你，謝謝！"],["李委員彥秀：也祝福、也希望您的想法跟理想，在接下來這4年我們可以看到好好落實，謝謝您！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝！"],["主席：現場有兩位委員，等兩位委員發言完畢，我們就休息10分鐘。","接下來下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.54971875,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.38034375,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.42159375,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.383468750000002,"end":4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臺灣 3%對很多人來說是很多的欸"},{"start":103.672,"end":120.877,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情我剛才問說你的態度是什麼你的想法是什麼這個對於未來我覺得各單位牽涉到跟你有關的業務最起碼對你是尊重要先問過我先跟我討論過你才能宣布"},{"start":122.535,"end":138.745,"text":"這我們可能適時來跟衛福部討論一下這個事情我覺得你要跟石崇良講不是你要怎麼樣就怎麼樣你也要讓我有時間跟我存股戶去做溝通吧你要一個預告期我也要知道外面的影響是什麼或者我拜託他說你不要一下調到2.11"},{"start":140.626,"end":167.046,"text":"你是不是談到2點5就好了?所以我剛才才問說你的態度是什麼?因為你的態度去決定你後面怎麼去跟他談這是主委我要提醒您的地方這是第一點主委我看到剛剛很多委員問了很多議題喔那其實都在問你對於整個金管業務的最主要的態度那因為我今天時間不多我就主要我再接續下來問因為我過去也關注到在這段時間我有特別"},{"start":167.907,"end":168.167,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":192.968,"end":216.32,"text":"財務的表達方式其實都非常重要那這整件事情其實包括加入保險法的加入淨值比之後其實成為RBC比率等量的資本監理基準其實從此財報的影響比資本監理其實更重要那財報其實是以短期限的近變性觀點為基礎"},{"start":219.221,"end":227.586,"text":"所以到底這整件事情是不是能忠實表達受險超長期經營的週期這個是你過去在報紙所討論過的那當中其實你在文章當中也提到包括2008年金融海嘯的影響當時也是我們的受險業其實"},{"start":241.395,"end":270.347,"text":"剛開始獲利非常多但是金融海嘯發生的時候我們9家受險的淨值它是負數後面它馬上又彈回來包括2020年的新冠疫情也是當時2月份的受險的淨值其實是新高後來短短一個月之後整個淨值又跌了5000多億元但是7月它又爬回來所以包括2022年我們大家都知道美國暴力的升息其實也是剛開始影響非常大"},{"start":271.047,"end":298.134,"text":"我舉這三個例子的事件其實都要凸顯說我們短期它可能對於財報有短期的變化但是就長期而言其實並不是如此所以我想就現在您當時的彭教授再回過頭來問你彭主委你到底對於我們資本監理到底應不應該跟IFRS的財報做脫鉤我想請問主委您的意見"},{"start":299.174,"end":314.801,"text":"這個主要的概念是來自於美國的監理我想我以前是會計系的我剛剛上課的時候老師有跟我說過其實會計根據你的使用者不同你的編制的目的跟方法就完全不同像我們的稅務會計跟財務會計就完全是不同"},{"start":315.481,"end":343.224,"text":"那剛才講過IFRS他是做財務會計的表達他主要使用者是投資人但是我們RBC也好監理會計他主要是我們要來做長期清談能力這兩個確實有點差異那這個部分其實在國內在這一塊呢我們確實在我過去在當彭教授的時候確實對這個東西提出很多的看法那我覺得未來若有可能的話我有可能盡量去釐清這兩個的差異然後再來呢"},{"start":344.605,"end":367.614,"text":"主委我相信你來到這邊賴總統也好卓院長也好從業界或從學界找你來其實我覺得他一定有不同的想法希望從過去他們一定從過去你在文章上你在學界你的看法他們才會找你來就你跟過去的黃主委可能有所不同的地方這個不同不一定是"},{"start":368.334,"end":368.474,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":384.098,"end":403.686,"text":"因為我們都知道說短期的財報其實影響都是多應該是做一個長期穩定受寫我們會希望看到是一個長期穩定的方向就是說以長就短的結果其實短期讓業者看起來有利但是絕對對於他們業界做長期的規劃的決策"},{"start":405.126,"end":406.307,"text":"我覺得這個東西如果未來我覺得我會可能會去持續調整它的內容"},{"start":433.123,"end":442.888,"text":"主委持續的調整我們當作您只有四年的時間好了因為一任四年嘛你會在第幾年做好調整這個隨時動態來做啦對啊"},{"start":445.64,"end":447.061,"text":"不過是對的事情我們就要持續的做啦"},{"start":473.086,"end":498.037,"text":"你會堅持的做,所以方向上你會做調整也應該朝部份或什麼樣的脫鉤方式我想知道你政策上你走的方向因為當你決定了政策方向在這邊宣布了之後下面的人就會跟著你動你現在說我想想看我思考看看底下就會跟你講主委最好不要這個齁所有的監理指標都是要按照我們真實的狀況來調整我想當然包括鏡子筆"},{"start":500.463,"end":509.558,"text":"最後一個問題因為時間也快到了目前保險業的資本適足性的管理辦法當中有一個禁止比不得低於3%的規範你會不會調整?"},{"start":513.479,"end":533.52,"text":"因為這個是定在保險法裡面它的剛性蠻強但是所以這部分的話我們會或者我應該是這麼說我知道你說剛性很強但是您來您從學界來賴總統找你來我不知道當時你有沒有在他的智囊團裡面或者是卓院長看到你來應該是對你過去的"},{"start":535.081,"end":535.101,"text":"當然﹖"},{"start":555.527,"end":584.573,"text":"這個部分其實我覺得這裡面應該想還是我剛才那句話只要是正確的對市場有利對消費者有利我們都要做啦你目前心中有沒有覆案會不會有其他的政策來去處理就是說他現在規範的淨值比不得低於3%事實上在產業界他們是有不同的經驗我相信在這段時間你走訪了那麼多跟工會做互動你大概都很清楚知道問題在哪裡所以你自己心裡有沒有覆案"},{"start":585.293,"end":606.168,"text":"有想法嗎?或者你現在覺得還不成熟不敢在檯面上講你有想法嗎?當然有想法但我覺得容我把整個方案講得就是能夠比較可行的時候再跟大家報告好 所以你有想法有其他想法或其他的政策方向可以去做進行規範跟建立你是有覆案的?有有 好主委我期待"},{"start":611.448,"end":627.1,"text":"您可以發揮您的專長可以去做一些改變其實我今天還有很多其他政策性的問題要問但今天真的時間太少了謝謝委員的指正謝謝主委也祝福也希望您的想法跟理想能在接下來這四年我們可以看到好好落實謝謝您現場有兩位委員"}]}},{"id":"152788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dea98e50d8bfd852a3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:48:38 - 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Musk等很多人也都發表過，我們就不多說。請教一下，副主委如何看待目前這些國際的現象，我們有沒有在關注AI的人才，有或沒有？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，我想AI是第四次的產業革命，其實每個國家都把AI人才的延攬當作重中之重，臺灣當然也不例外。針對AI相關的數位人才，我們大概有三個面向可以做，其中一個我們已經在做了，就是擴充高教的培育能量，STEM這些人才，至於非資訊的科系裡面，我們也開設一些跨領域的。第二個是產學共育，就是大家知道的半導體學院等等的，還有區域產學人才培訓中心。第三個我們也希望企業自己培養自己需要的人才，大概由這三個面向……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想機會很難得，我就讓你全部講完，但是沒關係，這個相對的完整，但我們現在這個AI內閣，我相信對AI人才應該要有更多的瞭解。根據國科會的調查，我們現在的人才缺口很大，而且還在持續擴大，人才缺口大概有3,000人。然後接下來我們的缺口還會持續地擴大、持續的成長，人工智慧應用服務的新增需求人數超過5,000人。再來，我們又發現在人工智慧應用服務產業領域招募專業人才有非常非常多的困難，簡報上的資料是經濟部工業局的調查，這不是我們亂填的，招募困難，難難難，難上加難。我們其實已經看到，紐約時報3月份的報導提到，AI人才最大的生產國，中國已經占一半了，美國也只有18%，我們臺灣一定要做得好，否則的話，我們到時候又來討論什麼AI人才到底從哪裡來的問題。我想從產業端裡面，我們都應該要來多瞭解，您剛剛提到的這些問題，我們有問ChatGPT-4o最新的版本，確實您剛剛提到的點大概都有在裡面，接下來也希望我們可以人機一起協作，讓中央部會，還有我們立院一起來努力。我想接下來這種AI的人才，在教育的體系裡面也應該要持續的培養，請教一下廖司長，我們教育體系每年大概可以培養出多少AI人才，你知道嗎？我的時間可以暫停嗎？"],["廖代理司長高賢：相關科系的部分，是不是容我們盤點之後……"],["葛委員如鈞：1,905位，一年1,905位。我們連自己到底有多少AI人才都不知道，這是非常危險的，未來我們擔心的地方是，人才需求越來越多，我們引進的也不夠，自己生產也不夠，人才還外流，這真的是非常危險。我們看一下，微軟一直說很重要，特斯拉也說很重要，全世界大家都說很重要，我們國科會推動海外人才歸國橋接方案，4年來花了4億，只有97人留下來，然後我們國發會研發的就業金卡，科技類去年一整年只網羅到372人，你沒有聽錯，300不是3,000，實在令人非常的憂心。請教一下，國發會能不能協同教育部、國科會、數位部等相關部會建立跨部會的AI人力資源現況調查機制，以及多久可以完成這個調查？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上我們都有持續就產業人才的缺口進行調查，那AI人才應該也會在我們的調查裡面，我們事後可以提供給委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：多久？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：現在這個調查還在走行政流程，一旦公布的時候，我們就給委員資料，可以嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：好，希望三個月內將調查結果提供給本席辦公室。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：另外，第二個部分，本席有個陳情的案例想跟副主委分享。某個科技公司想以正職員工的形式聘任某位來臺灣就讀大學的外國留學生，副主委覺得以現行法規可行嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：以正職員工聘請，麻煩委員再說一次，聘請外國……"],["葛委員如鈞：聘請某位來臺灣就讀大學的外國留學生。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：他已經大學畢業了嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：這個外國留學生正要畢業。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：那應該是要取得學位的時候。"],["葛委員如鈞：依據就業服務法第五十條第一款規定，雇主聘任就讀於大專院校的外國留學生，工作時間除了寒暑假之外，每星期最長為20小時，總之就是無法用正職方式聘任，業者如果用實習的方式來合作，就我所瞭解，他的工作能力是正職的專業程度，為什麼只能用實習來聘任呢？這對學生不太公平，但受限於法規，這些學生就先以實習的方式參與工作，我要再進一步問，也請問副主委，同樣的情境，這個學生畢業以後能不能用正職聘任，您覺得畢業以後的聘任可行嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：我跟你分享一下，根據外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第一款至第六款工作資格及審查標準第五條第二款規定，取得國內外大學相關系所之碩士以上學位者，或取得相關系所之學士學位而有二年以上工作經驗者，也就是這位同學即使在這個公司實習二年，但實習二年的經驗並不能認定為工作資格。結果這個學生畢業以後，被這個公司育才兩年以後，即使有留在臺灣工作的意願，最後還是一定要離開臺灣，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然不合理，所以我們現在有一個僑外生評點制度，他可以用僑外生評點制度留在臺灣，不需要適用就服法第四十六條第一項第一款的規定。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個評點制度推行了多久？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：已經10年了。"],["葛委員如鈞：人數呢？去年多少人用？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：去年是一萬七千多人。"],["葛委員如鈞：全部都可以解決剛剛這個問題嗎？你們要搞清楚喔！我們接到的陳情是無法解決，如果是這樣，我非常高興，不然我們的國會改革法通過就有其目的，沒有關係，我相信你們是真的，也希望你們到時候可以在臉書、社群上面分享、澄清，不要讓大家誤會了，我們有非常好的留才機制。","結論，本席理解勞動政策有非常多的地方要考量，但是希望可以讓來臺灣就讀大學或研究所完整學制的學生，真的要有多一點的就業彈性。另外，你們提到有鬆綁的相關計畫，也希望一併考量進去，希望這些都可以帶回去思考看看，未來有什麼樣的AI人才可以持續培育，有一些外國來臺灣就學的學生，我們希望可以留下來，讓臺灣的人才濟濟成為下一個世代競爭力的高峰，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。我們中午不休息，直到發言結束為止。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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葛如鈞 葛如鈞"},{"start":110.828,"end":133.268,"text":" ﹝討論﹞"},{"start":133.288,"end":150.784,"text":"拜託我們現在這個AI內閣相信對AI人才應該要更多的了解我們國會會的調查我們現在的缺口很大而且還會持續擴大大概有3000人然後我們的這個接下來還會在缺口會持續的在擴大持續的成長人工智慧應用服務的新增需求人數超過5000人"},{"start":152.406,"end":176.137,"text":"再來我們又發現有非常非常多的困難這是經濟部工業局的調查這不是我們亂填的招募困難難難難上加難那我們其實已經看到《紐約時報》3月份的報導提到AI人才最大的生產國中國已經佔一半了美國也只有18%我們台灣一定要來做得好否則的話我們到時候又來討論什麼AI人才到底從哪裡來的問題"},{"start":177.518,"end":202.796,"text":"那我想從產業端裡面我們都應該要來多了解啦那您剛剛提到的這些問題我們有問確實GPT4最新的版本其實確實您剛剛提到的點大概都有在裡面我想接下來希望我們可以人機一起協作加上我們在這個中央部會還有我們的立院一起來努力那我想接下來的這種AI的人才在這個教育的體系裡面也應該要持續的培養"},{"start":203.797,"end":216.117,"text":"有沒有知道請教一下這個廖司長我們教育體系每年大概培養出多少人才知道嗎?時間可以暫停嗎?"},{"start":223.518,"end":246.252,"text":"1905位一年1905位我們連自己到底有多少AI人才我們自己都不知道這是非常危險的這個未來我們這個擔心的地方人才越來越多我們引進的也不夠自己生產的也不夠人才還外流這真的是非常危險我們看一下這個微軟一直說很重要特斯拉也說很重要大家全世界都說很重要"},{"start":246.892,"end":274.072,"text":"我們國科會推動海外人才歸國橋接方案,四年來花了四億,只有97人留下來。然後我們國發會發了就業金卡,科技類去年一整年值網路到372人,你沒有聽錯,300不是3000,實在令人非常憂心。請教一下,能不能國發會協同教育部、國科會、數位部等相關部會建立跨部會的AI人力資源現況調查機制,以及多久可以完成這個調查?"},{"start":275.657,"end":276.157,"text":"希望三個月內將調查結果公布給本席辦公室"},{"start":295.754,"end":320.307,"text":"另外第二個部分本席有個陳情的案例想跟副主委分享某個科技公司想以正職員工的形式聘任某位來台灣就讀大學的外國留學生副主委覺得以現行法規可行嗎?以正職員工聘請麻煩委員再說一次聘請某位來台灣就讀大學的外國留學生是他已經畢業了嗎?"},{"start":325.352,"end":347.311,"text":"外國留學生正要畢業應該是要取得學位的我們來看一下依據《就業服務法》第五十條第一款僱主聘任就讀於大專院校的外國留學生工作時間除函暑假之外每星期的總之就是無法用正職方式聘任如果用實習的方式合作呢這個業主就這樣我就這個來了解嘛"},{"start":347.851,"end":369.806,"text":"他說這個工作的能力是正職的專業程度,為什麼只能用實習來聘任呢?這對學生不太公平。但受限於法規,這些學生就先以實習的方式參與工作了。那我又再進一步問,也問您,如果這個學生畢業以後能不能用正職來聘任,您覺得畢業以後的聘任可行嗎?"},{"start":370.586,"end":395.536,"text":"同樣的情境。當然可以。那我們跟你分享一下。根據《外國人從事就業服務法》第四十條第一項第一款至第六款工作資格及審查標準第五條第二款規定取得國內外大學相關系所之碩士以上學位者或取得系所之學士學位而有兩年以上工作經驗者也就是說這位同學即使在這個工作公司實習兩年實習兩年經驗並不能認為工作資格"},{"start":398.317,"end":420.189,"text":"所以結果就是這個學生畢業以後被這個公司預裁了兩年以後結果即使有留在台灣工作的意願最後還是一定要離開台灣啦齁你覺得這樣合理嗎當然不合理所以我們現在有一個橋外生評點制度你可以用橋外生評點制度留在台灣不需要適用救福法第46條第一項第一款的規定"},{"start":420.689,"end":447.918,"text":"那這個評點制度推行了多久?已經十年了。那人數呢?去年多少人用?一萬多人。全部都可以解決剛剛這個問題嗎?你們要搞清楚喔!我們的陳情是說無法解決喔!那如果是這樣我非常高興!不然呢我們國會改革法通過就有它的目的喔!沒有關係我們相信你們是真的喔!那也希望到時候我們也會在臉書上面在社群上面分享陳情"},{"start":448.638,"end":476.204,"text":"大家不要誤會了,我們有非常好的猶才機制。結論啦,本席理解勞動政策有非常多的地方要考量,但是真的希望可以讓來台灣就讀大學或研究所完整學制的學生,真的要有多一點的就業彈性。另外呢,你們也提到有這個鬆綁啦,相關的計畫,也希望一併考量進去。希望都可以帶回去試好看看,未來有什麼樣的AI人才可以持續來培育,有一些外國來台灣就學的我們希望可以留下來。"},{"start":476.904,"end":480.331,"text":"讓台灣的人才、技技成為下一個世代競爭力的高峰。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d8d23097b063a3edf42979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d2017b0c18060a6df1b5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:41:47 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10:48:56","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":429,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-24"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:48:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:41:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（10時42分）謝謝主席。請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長你好。部長，首先恭喜您就任新職，但近來整個國事繁多，治安動盪，以下將就隨機殺人、死刑、毒品等議題與鄭部長討論。首先，昨天有一位高雄衛生局列管對象前往臺中捷運實施無差別殺人，選定在5月21日，是否有模仿鄭捷北捷殺人案件的意圖，檢調是不是要深入調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這個一定要深入調查，這一件我們臺中地檢署已經分案了，檢察官在通報後，第一時間就趕赴現場蒐證了，那……"],["林委員德福：謝謝。本席是希望法務部調查局要進行社群網路情資的蒐集時，對特定重大犯罪事件的日期前後要加強網路巡邏，對此，部長有什麼看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我同意。"],["林委員德福：因為鄭捷也是那一天，這個案件也是這一天，為什麼是同樣的日子？我認為你們應該要進一步深入的去瞭解。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，我們會去瞭解。"],["林委員德福：第二個，根據中正大學犯罪研究中心的調查研究發現，有近86%的民眾是不贊成廢除死刑，蔡清祥前部長在任內，也兩次批准執行死刑，蔡前部長認為死刑的規定合憲，本席請問部長，您是否認為死刑規定合憲？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一貫立場，我認為是。"],["林委員德福：一貫立場？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部的立場，法務部認為是合憲。"],["林委員德福：您是否支持維持死刑呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我既然當法務部長，我們認為這是合憲的。"],["林委員德福：合憲嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，合憲。"],["林委員德福：我認為您對檢察官體系的瞭解，您是否也認為檢察官胡亂起訴求處死刑？如果憲法法庭認為死刑合憲，那麼目前有37位死刑犯還沒有執行死刑，未來您批准執行死刑先後可能的依據為何？是被害者人數，還是死刑定讞時間的長短？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果是合憲的判決出來，我想就是看整個合憲解釋的內容，如果有些執行死刑規則等相關的規定需要再修改，我們會修改，至於要不要執刑，這部分我們會再看整個執刑相關規定……"],["林委員德福：部長，因為86%的人反對廢死，其實對受害者家屬來講，那是第二次很嚴重的傷害，因為他本身是受害者的家屬，也是永遠的痛。我們轉個角度來看就好了，部長，毒品是萬惡之首，吸毒者沒錢買毒，進而犯下詐欺、偷竊、強盜、殺人等案件，截至113年4月底，在監獄裡面的人數有5萬人，其中因為毒品案件服刑共約有2萬人，占受刑人的四成，比例這麼高喔！現任國防部長顧立雄在擔任立委時，也曾主張擴大實施施用毒品罪醫療前置化的修法，被外界認為是變相的毒品除罪化。請問法務部目前要推動毒品危害防制條例修法，將施用第一級、第二級毒品除罪化嗎？你們會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有要除罪化這些的立法……"],["林委員德福：我認為所有的毒品案件，尤其做毒品在賣，甚至於從國外走私毒品進來，那真的是萬惡之首，所有任何幹壞事，譬如搶劫，幾乎什麼都是跟毒品沾染上關係，所以我希望法務部在這方面，你們一定要堅持，尤其我認為販毒的人，你判得太輕啦，應該要再加重。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我們反毒策略的行動綱領要進入第三期了，現在毒品的新增人口也都降低了，另外再犯也都降低了，請委員放心，我們會努力。"],["林委員德福：好，我最後一個議題，國內走私與施用二級毒品大麻迅速的成長，據調查局的統計，大麻成長量已超越安非他命，成為國內第二大類的毒品，2023年查獲大麻總數量，一共有1,169公斤，相較於2021年查獲約240公斤，增加386%，就是三倍多，將近四倍。首先，本席反對吸食大麻除罪化，也反對大麻改為三級毒品，中正大學犯罪研究中心調查指出，差不多九成的民眾持不贊成大麻合法化的意見，就是不能讓他吸食大麻。請問法務部未來會將大麻改列為第三級毒品，讓吸食大麻除罪化嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部的立場是反對大麻除罪化，我們還要把它當作我們安居緝毒專案的查緝重點毒品。"],["林委員德福：對，因為你看有很多人引進那些大麻進來裡面栽植、種植，到最後查出來，問題一堆啦！其實只要販毒、吸毒，我認為你們要列為很重要的重點工作，看怎麼去杜絕它、防範它，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：感謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝鄭部長。","接下來有請鄭委員天財。鄭委員天財、鄭委員天財不在。","有請洪委員孟楷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-24","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","林思銘","謝龍介","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","羅智強","林德福","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.73721875,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.86346875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.11221875,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.63096875,"end":22.660343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.879718750000002,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.313468750000002,"end":28.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.33034375,"end":28.465343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.465343750000002,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.140343750000003,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.629718750000002,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.199093750000003,"end":35.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.447218750000005,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.31159375,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.610968750000005,"end":51.735968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.30971875,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.84909375,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.51534375000001,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.86471875000001,"end":66.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.60284375,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.35346875,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.41096875000001,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.77784375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.96346875,"end":92.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.41721875,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.67409375000001,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.00284375000001,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.06596875000001,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.65159375,"end":112.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.19909375,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.46534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這個一定要深入調查那這件我們檢查台中地檢署已經分案了那檢察官在通報後第一時間就趕赴現場來收證了謝謝本期是希望說法務部調查局要進行社群這個網路這個情資的收集時對特定重大犯罪的事件日期"},{"start":93.77,"end":113.765,"text":"前後要加強網路巡邏對此部長你有什麼看法這個我同意我認為因為正節也是那一天這個也是這一天這個裡面為什麼同樣的日子我認為你們應該要進一步深入的去了解是 這個我們會去了解"},{"start":114.005,"end":135.283,"text":"第二部長根據中正大學犯罪研究中心的調查研究發現有近86%的民眾是不贊成匯除死刑那蔡清祥前部長在任內也兩次來批准執行死刑蔡前部長認為死刑是"},{"start":136.476,"end":138.677,"text":"本席請問部長您是否支持維持死刑呢?"},{"start":153.707,"end":173.206,"text":"這個我想我既然當法務部長我們是就是就是要我認為就是這合憲的合憲嘛我認為說您對檢察官體系的瞭解您是為認為檢察官胡亂起訴求處死刑如果憲法法庭認為死刑合憲那目前有37位喔"},{"start":175.228,"end":188.447,"text":"這個死刑犯還沒有執行死刑那未來您批准執行死刑先後可能的依據為何是被害者人數還是死刑定驗時間的長短"},{"start":191.015,"end":191.956,"text":"部長,因為86%的人認為他們是反對會死"},{"start":219.116,"end":237.364,"text":"那這個其實對受害者家屬來講那是第二次很嚴重的傷害因為他本身是受害者的家屬那是永遠的痛我們轉個角度來看就好了那個部長毒品是萬惡之首"},{"start":238.684,"end":266.226,"text":"吸毒者沒錢買毒竟而犯下詐欺偷竊強盜殺人等案件截至113年4月底在監獄裡面的人數有5萬人5萬人因為毒品案件這個胡行共業有超過2萬人佔4成受刑人的4成比例這麼高那現任國防部長顧立雄在擔任立委時曾也主張說"},{"start":267.227,"end":271.089,"text":"請問法務部目前要推動毒品危害防治條例修法將施用第一級第二級毒品除罪化嗎?"},{"start":290.388,"end":300.127,"text":"這個沒有要處罪化的這些的立法我認為說齁真的你所有尤其是這個做毒品在賣甚至於這個"},{"start":302.881,"end":303.241,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":324.403,"end":340.409,"text":"那個販毒的人你判得太輕了應該再加重這個謝謝委員我想我們這個已經反毒策略的行動綱領要進入第三期了那現在毒品的新增人口也都降低了那另外那個我們那個災犯也都降低了這個請委員放心我們會努力"},{"start":341.249,"end":358.869,"text":"我最後一個議題,國內走私與私用二級毒品大麻迅速的成長,據調查局的統計,大麻成長量已超越安非他命,成為國內第二大類的毒品,2023年查獲大麻總數量一共有1169公斤,"},{"start":360.911,"end":382.176,"text":"相較於202121年查獲約240公斤,增加386%,將近4倍。首先本席反對稀釋大麻除罪化,也反對大麻改為三級土品。中正大學犯罪研究中心調查指出,差不多九成民眾"},{"start":385.177,"end":406.011,"text":"此不贊成大麻合法化就是不能讓它稀食大麻請問法務部未來會將大麻改列為第三級毒品讓稀食大麻除罪化嗎這個本部的立場是反對大麻除罪化我們這個還要把它當作我們安居緝毒的專案的查緝的重點毒品"},{"start":406.451,"end":406.631,"text":"林委員﹚謝謝政務部長："}]}},{"id":"152786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d6c87311f555609d949cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20172e4e34333fe8e0c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:42:53 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ETS或美國等等的制度，甚至有些國家是雙軌並行。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以，部長，我的意見是不管如何我們要做好規劃、做好準備。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：您講的這個部分OK，但是碳稅2030年我們勢必要面對，而這個面對現在可能就要開始接軌。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：雖然我們碳費還沒有上路，第二個部分是你說實際要減碳，但更重要的是胡蘿蔔。沒錯！現在只有收錢的話，企業大概不痛不癢，但如果給他一些胡蘿蔔，他可能才會真正做到。但是碳費的機制上，剛剛很多委員都說了，工總最近說你都沒有去溝通好，或者環境部沒有溝通好，我不知道，我剛剛聽到你會去溝通好，我覺得是一件好事。我們不會比業界更瞭解業界，我們要知道他們要什麼，如果只是要付一點點錢，然後什麼東西都沒有、沒有胡蘿蔔，對他們來說也沒什麼用。所以我要強調，我看你提到美國的降低通膨方案裡面，臺灣政府可以轉型的參考，也就是胡蘿蔔，美國的法案每年要投入3,750億做減碳投資。同樣的，臺灣目前碳費的規劃及將來碳稅的規劃，有沒有做你講的所謂胡蘿蔔的轉型之投資計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起收，所以它使用的用途……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們有沒有考慮提？"],["彭部長啓明：還沒有在規劃這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我給部長一個建議，當時我在臺北市的時候，我們提出了淨零碳排自治條例，裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要有一筆錢協助企業及包括受損失或影響事業的民眾做轉型。也就是碳費開始上路之後，政府應該有相對補償或者就他們在轉型中間可能造成損失的一個計畫，你同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以氣候轉型基金可能是環境部將來很重要的任務。"],["彭部長啓明：就是可能在未來碳費收取之後，一部分的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，你必須要有一部分的錢拿來做這方面的轉型。最重要的是，接下來除了剛剛講的胡蘿蔔還有什麼？給胡蘿蔔的最好方法其實是財政部的租稅工具。租稅工具裡面，針對產業創新條例，現在有很多東西可以抵減稅額，尤其是投資減稅；而減碳的投資額度，環境部要去跟財政部爭取。現在財政部因為收稅，財政狀況非常好，稅收非常完整，所以他不太願意減免或抵減，這個部分可能環境部必須協助企業去爭取，我們今天要走到淨零碳排的路上，相對上如果沒有減稅的工具，其實也沒有什麼效果，就是你說的胡蘿蔔可能不夠。你同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，最後一個小問題。我常常在說，現在台積電不斷在國內擴廠，環境部主管的所謂環境影響評估什麼都評，水力也要評，但就是電力不評。上次我問了薛部長，也就是要設一個廠，就我們電力的評估夠不夠，完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面，這個部分我們希望加到將來的環評規劃裡面。雖然依電業法是由台電提供電，但我希望將來企業自身可能也自主發電，甚至有自己負責其電力調配的能力。否則永遠都是一般民眾來承擔，我們必須要經濟發展而受到電力的這些衝擊，而發生事情的時候，我們如果反對，就說是我們不要經濟發展，但全國民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展所帶來的電力上的影響，你同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我會請我們同仁研究一下……"],["黃委員珊珊：環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估，將來自主電力也應該成為企業設廠時的一個要求。"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我會請我們同仁研究一下。"],["黃委員珊珊：目前沒有啦！我現在只是要告訴部長，你上任後，這個應該成為環境部的責任之一。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：繼續開會。接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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ETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃"},{"start":108.755,"end":108.855,"text":"﹚黃珊珊"},{"start":129.463,"end":155.381,"text":"但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是"},{"start":157.542,"end":171.034,"text":"現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫"},{"start":181.152,"end":188.975,"text":"因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手,所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃。我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金。你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型。也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後,其實政府應該有一個相對"},{"start":208.592,"end":234.735,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":234.735,"end":252.363,"text":"﹚國際網絡網絡"},{"start":252.463,"end":252.763,"text":"最後一個小問題"},{"start":276.072,"end":298.465,"text":"我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面"},{"start":299.065,"end":299.105,"text":"﹚黃珊珊﹚"},{"start":327.918,"end":353.42,"text":"全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":356.703,"end":358.908,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言 我們先來休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"152785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3ba5822f5fccbea449cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d201734c2034a5d6bfafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:36:08 - 10:42:44","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":396,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:42:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:36:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":594,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時36分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。非常帥氣！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我從你的資料裡面看，你也長期在環境保護學會當過理事長、當過秘書長，所以應該可以勝任環境部的工作……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然環境部業務也很廣泛。今天要跟你談的是花蓮、臺東的交通，當然跟環境部有關係。蘇花安在今年2月20日做了環評，環評的結果是沒有通過，要補正，這是113年2月20日。然後在5月14日做了第2次初審，只是初審會議，做了一個決議，建議通過。這個部分我要特別請部長，還有次長，尤其是公務人員，部長，我是30年公務人員，我也擔任過常務副主委，所以我要請公務人員協助，因為環保人員難免用最高的標準，但是現在的工程技術與環境保護是能夠兼顧的，甚至反而是這些工程技術施工更可以環境保護，更可以達到環保。過去我也常跟這些環保人員對話，以前還沒有蘇花改的時候，一下雨就坍方、一下雨就坍方，反而沒有保護，對不對？沒有保護。我們就舉一些例子好了，就以蘇花改為例，蘇花改是已經完成的，它做的都是最困難的、最危險的，現在就是要繼續做蘇花安，和仁到崇德，這一次0403大地震就是大清水這裡坍方，最下面那個，就在這一段，黃色的這個就是蘇花安要做的，是比過去好做的，比較好做的，而且對環境保護沒有那麼困難的，但是這次的環保防更困難，很奇怪，難以想像，這就是公務人員怎麼樣去善盡說明義務，讓環保人員能夠瞭解。同樣的工程在南迴公路都做了，結果在蘇花改又有不同的環保人員去發言。我們就去做對比，做對比比較重要。蘇花改97年11月10號開始進行可行性研究，然後99年11月9號完成環境影響評估，100年就動工，這是最困難的，結果反而比較快。我先講蘇花改，這一次0403大地震，完全無事；更早的北迴鐵路，從以前到現在，大地震、大颱風、大豪雨都沒有事。當然環評人員總是有意見，所以你們要做詳盡的說明。你看蘇花安108年12月20號開始進行可行性研究，本來預估111年完成，結果到現在還沒有完成環評，已經嚴重落後，本來好做的結果反而落後，這個就是沒有善盡說明義務。所以環境部無論是部長、次長或公務人員，要善盡說明義務，讓工程能夠順利推動，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，報告委員，因為蘇花安的時候我還沒有上任，可不可以請我們環評司司長來說明？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有關係，我跟他對話過了。"],["彭部長啓明：我們有討論過，大概百分之九十以上的案件……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：希望能夠做妥善的說明。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：而且你們是預計7月底請公路總局補正資料，如果他們提早補正資料，我建議你們能夠提早開環評大會，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來請李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員不在。","接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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這個部長我是30年公務人員我也擔任過這個常務的副主委所以我要請這個這個公務人員這個要協助協助因為難免這個環保人員他用最高的標準但是現在的工程技術是可以跟環境保護能夠兼顧甚至"},{"start":148.334,"end":168.332,"text":"甚至反而是做了這些工程技術施工更可以環境保護更可以達到環保過去我也常跟這些環保人員對話以前還沒有書法改的時候"},{"start":169.264,"end":188.826,"text":"你現在還沒有抒發改的時候,一下也就塌方,一下也就塌方。這個就反而沒有保護。對不對,沒有保護。所以這個部分,我們就舉一些例子好了。我們就以抒發改,抒發改就是已經完成的。抒發改它做的都是最困難的。"},{"start":190.374,"end":217.903,"text":"最困難的最危險的做了那現在就是要繼續做這個舒華安舒華安就是說這些這個河倫到崇德這一次那個0403大地震那個就是這個大清水最下面那個有沒有大清水就在這段黃色的這個就是舒華改舒華安黃色的是舒華安要做的是比過去好做的"},{"start":218.743,"end":245.372,"text":"啊,比較好做的而且不要那麼這個對環境保護沒有那麼困難的但是這一次的環保房更困難很奇怪,難以想像這個就是一個公務人員怎麼樣去善盡說明讓環保人員能夠瞭解同樣的工程在南淮公務都做了啊結果在書房改的又有"},{"start":246.465,"end":261.295,"text":"不同的環保人員去發言。所以這個我就不再,剛剛就是另外一個圖。我們就去做對比。"},{"start":262.849,"end":287.686,"text":"這對比比較重要。蘇花改97年11月10號可行性研究然後99年11月9號完整環境影響評估100年就動工這個是最困難的結果比較快我先講這個蘇花改這一次0403大地震完全無事"},{"start":289.298,"end":298.053,"text":"更早的北回鐵路,北回鐵路知道嗎?更早嘛從以前到現在大地震、大颱風"},{"start":300.776,"end":300.976,"text":"一百零八年"},{"start":325.61,"end":343.421,"text":"12月20日可行性研究本來一估111年結果112年到現在還沒有完成環評的所以這個已經嚴重落後所以這個部分本來好做的結果反而落後這個就是沒有善盡說明"},{"start":345.37,"end":362.946,"text":"我們做環保環境部的這些我們的不論是部長或是次長或是公務員要善盡說明讓這個能夠順利可以嗎好可以報告委員這個因為我說話安的時候我還沒有上任可不可以請我們環評司長來進行報告沒關係我們跟他對話過了"},{"start":366.229,"end":367.109,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員接下來請李燕秀委員"}]}},{"id":"152784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9df329d9e604560f1e88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20177439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:36:55 - 10:48:29","影片長度":"00:11:34","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":694,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:48:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:36:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時36分）主席謝謝，有請新任的彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝郭委員。"],["郭委員國文：彭主委好，首先就教於有關新光人壽的部分，新光人壽因為增資不足，被上一任的主委──黃天牧黃主委進行行政處分，而對於這樣的行政處分，魏寶生魏董事長不服，尋求行政救濟，我想要問你的基本立場，你希望維持原處分，還是希望能夠協助他撤另處？主委，你回答啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我只要問他是不是真的有來訴願？現在我們還沒收到他的訴願書，但我們現在是依法來處罰，人民當然有訴願的權利，我們現在沒有收到他的訴願書……"],["郭委員國文：我是問你的立場，你是維持原來行政處分，還是會協助他撤另處？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在站在金管會立場，我們會支持現在的處分。"],["郭委員國文：一直處分到他增資為止嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這也是保險法的規定。"],["郭委員國文：RBC都不能打折扣，維持黃天牧所做的處分，黃規彭隨？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是保險法的規定。"],["郭委員國文：我問你這件事情是不是黃規彭隨啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們金管會已經做出裁處，我們當然是支持……"],["郭委員國文：是不是一樣，一樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前的裁處還是一樣。"],["郭委員國文：立場都一樣？那就是黃規彭隨啦，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也……"],["郭委員國文：接下來我問你另外一個問題，之所以對黃天牧主委有一個說法，就是說他過於強調監管而缺乏發展。或許外界對你的期待是希望將來能夠在發展的面向多出一點力，今天你特別就金管會的方向強調安全與發展這兩個面向……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：可是本席在這邊提醒你，監管是否太嚴、是否要鬆綁、是否要去管制化，這要扣合著發展，現在外界聽到您的任命一片叫好、充滿期待，他們期待什麼？他們期待是你鬆綁啊！他們期待什麼？他們期待你去管制啊！他們只期待這個，不是期待真正的發展。本席想要請問你，有關安全跟發展之間的界限，您的拿捏尺度到底如何？你要如何發展，你至少要講一些基本原則啊！你不要讓外界過度的期待，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，委員的提示非常對，其實發展並不是不是去監理化，這兩個是雙軌並進，就剛剛講的我們對市場、對公司的行為監理、公司治理、資本適足等沒有放鬆的理由，但是我們對未來新市場的發展，還有就是我們持續的做法規鬆綁，對於調適成本的下降，就是所謂的依從成本的下降，這是我們該做的，等於說我們要讓他們有更大的空間可以做新商品，但是既有的業務還是不能鬆。"],["郭委員國文：就保險業的部分您的說法是如此，但是在金管會現在被賦予的政策目標跟責任越來越多元、越來越加重的情況底下，你也不得不有一些要去管制，你也不得不有一部分要鬆綁，但是這個鬆綁跟去管制是有前提的，就是你要以發展作為一個正當性的前提來做考量，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以你也不能一直強調就是以監管為主，我認為你在這個部分的宣示應該要講得更清楚，不要讓外界有過度的期待。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我來改進。"],["郭委員國文：可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["郭委員國文：彭主委，對這個部分我希望你能夠講得更清楚、更明白。另外一個部分是有關於本席一直關心的，我在4月1號聯席委員會的時候就要求國發會要創造一個平臺，由國發會去創造一個平臺，也就是看如何把海外的壽險資金引進。我看過您的大作，你說壽險資金要投入公建有兩大因素，一是專案時間，二是報酬要穩定，但是以壽險業來說，在沒有案源、報酬也不穩定的情況底下，那我就教於彭主委，對這個部分要怎麼處理？接下來國發會又要開會了，接下來又有平臺會議了，接下來您的主張是什麼？有沒有具體的方式把你的學者之見形成政策之實啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我努力的方向，確實保險業在過去我們社會大家期待這個將近35兆的資金能夠留在臺灣，當然臺灣的資本市場還有投資標的是不夠的，這是確實的，過去金管會對保險投資的法規鬆綁已經增加了非常大的空間，但是沒有案源，最近我跟國發會還有其他各個部會也非常密集的在討論這件事情，我們一定要趕快創造可以被……"],["郭委員國文：你現在腦袋當中有沒有具體的計畫？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，我們現在可以用類似發債的方式……"],["郭委員國文：發債？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，我們具有自償性的就用發債的方式，再來，比如說我們把一些公建……"],["郭委員國文：發債的利率呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：利率的部分，我們可以再來……"],["郭委員國文：現在銀行的利率比發債的利率還低，他要取得資金很容易啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實是這樣。再來就是我們看看有沒有可能就一些公建部分來做證券化，這部分我們透過金管會這邊來協助，看能不能做一些……"],["郭委員國文：有啊！我們就要討論REITs啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個需要案源，案源需要跨部會來處理，這個是非常非常重要的。"],["郭委員國文：你可能要再想清楚一點，有具體的操作方式會比較可行，我覺得這個部分還有待你大力的努力，將來我們還有機會做進一步的探討。","另外，本席一直倡議所謂的金融科技局，你今天在媒體上回應了所謂的金融創新處，但是你3個處，再多1個處，剛剛有委員問你，你的人員編制也沒有增加啊！二來，處的位階又低於局啊！在這種情況底下，對於處的修法建議，局不一定會採啊！那你怎麼辦？一來人員沒有增加，建議權沒有增加，你只是多一個招牌，把人員做一些調動，多一個人、多一個處長的頭銜，主委，這樣對於整個事情的運作真的有幫助嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實很多事情要先跨出第一步，我剛才也跟委員報告過，因為我們現在設局會牽動到中央部會的組織……"],["郭委員國文：我知道，人事行政總處說當中到底還有沒有二級機關，本席也有去打聽過了，好像空間相對有限。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：但是在整個行政院的組改過程當中，過往財經部門不曾組改，你有沒有印象啊？在這段時間幾乎不曾組改。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：也就是說，你是不是在一個比較長期性的政策規劃當中來做一個思考？因為最近行政院有提出要將體育署升格為體育部，也就是將來還有一個整體組改的計畫嘛！當這個組改計畫來臨的時候，你就要適時地推出整個財經部門中金管會的位階是否要提升，從會提升為部，那部的組織編制就可以增加，編制可以增加，人員可以增加，你的業務推動才比較有順遂的可能嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這個確實是我們長遠規劃的想法。"],["郭委員國文：所以你有期待把這個處變成部囉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個倒不敢，我現在是說至少未來如果有可能先有局……"],["郭委員國文：你說不敢，那你們怎麼組織變革？"],["彭主任委員金隆：先有局這個概念可能是我們未來想要規劃的。"],["郭委員國文：先有局當然是好，先有處、先有局、先有部，你現在是採循序漸進的方式來處理，但是這是由下而上的方式，也有由上而下的方式啊！不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是一個思考，我們會來想。"],["郭委員國文：那你應該做一個整體的規劃，創造你這個組改的正當性嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：不然你一路的哀求，人事行政總處那邊也不一定會釋放多少人力給你啊！不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：我們大家都是內行人，講白一點嘛！對不對？如果是這樣子，你不如由上而下，速度會比較快一點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的建議。"],["郭委員國文：主委，可不可以從這方面來進行規劃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["郭委員國文：可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得這是可以來思考的方向，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！你要趕快進行組改，而不是隨便弄一個金融創新處來唬弄本席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：倒也不是。"],["郭委員國文：而且最重要的是你後面具體的作法，過往在整個金融創新處本席之所以會那麼care的原因就是因為，譬如說我們的沙盒實驗都希望業者去將就既有的法令，但是卻沒有要求業者去創造一個新的業別的可能性，因為你將就既有的法令，就是跟既有的業者有所競爭嘛！今天我很開心，因為你提出你要增訂一個沙盒的創新條例，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：這個是有具體作為的，當你有這樣的法的時候，你更需要有這樣的人員編制啊！不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["郭委員國文：那在通過這個條例之後，你的KPI有多少呢？你希望能夠增加多少？最近的沙盒實驗裡頭幾乎都沒有成功的案例啊！有的話也只是個位數。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們現在會來大力推動我們三業的試辦。"],["郭委員國文：好，那本席期待你的具體作為，我做一個廣泛性的提醒，而且這個金融創新處當中還有一個虛擬貨幣的問題，對於虛擬貨幣的部分，本席一再的強調你們不要過度的自我限縮，也不要想要採取深度的監管，應該要採取廣度的監管，也就是說，你們現在納入所謂的法遵聲明當中的才只有20家左右，明明還有六十幾家之多。主委，我請問你一下，你有沒有可能進行廣度的監管，把其他在申請當中的業者都快速的納入，有沒有可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分我們已經透過證期局跟櫃買在做審查，我們會趕快來……"],["郭委員國文：朝向開放，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是因為社會有予以納管這樣的期待，我們會朝……"],["郭委員國文：既然你的第一個任務是要打詐的話，你對這個問題就不能迴避而且要積極處理，第一個，本席建議你深度監理要朝向廣度監理，對於剩下這幾家正在申請當中的業者，要趕快讓他們擁有法遵聲明。第二個，也要有差異性的管理，對OTC的部分、交易所的部分、個人幣商的部分都要納管，在這樣的情況底下你才有機會啊！對於這種透過虛擬貨幣詐騙的部分，你才能澈底的防堵、澈底的堵詐啦！有沒有可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會朝這個方向來思考。"],["郭委員國文：這個才是一個很重要的關鍵問題，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["郭委員國文：我希望看到主委事後提出一個具體的回應給本席，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：因為時間的關係，我也不方便繼續質詢，將來我們來日方長，還有機會質詢，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們再跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：有關剛剛講的資料再後補，提供補充的資料給相關的委員。接下來請李彥秀李委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.35096875,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.127218750000001,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":8.130968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.99159375,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.952843750000003,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.40846875,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.880968750000001,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.914718750000002,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.75471875,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.822218750000005,"end":39.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.68284375,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":61.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.197218750000005,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.48221875,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.85721875,"end":61.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.15221875,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.16909375,"end":61.219718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.219718750000006,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.25346875,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.33721875,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.61471875000001,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.96471875,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.88346875,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":81.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.90846875000001,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.02659375,"end":84.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.03034375,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.43096875,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.02971875,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":91.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.17284375000001,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.40909375000001,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.60721875,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.65784375000001,"end":93.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.80534375,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.59409375,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.31971875,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.87659375000001,"end":97.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.39284375000001,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.15534375000001,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.39534375000001,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.89284375000001,"end":129.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.81659375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.31409375,"end":133.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.17034375,"end":140.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.20721875,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.66971875000002,"end":160.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.30971875,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.55096875,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.68034375000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.97846875000002,"end":253.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.43784375,"end":232.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.20971875,"end":234.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start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這個需要按援 這個按援需要跨部會來處理這個是非常非常重要你可能要再想清楚一點有具體的操作方式會比較可行我覺得這個部分還有有待於你大力的努力將來我們還有機會做進一步的探討還有另外本席一直倡議的所謂的金融科技局你今天在媒體上回應了所謂的金融創新處"},{"start":372.185,"end":377.239,"text":"但是呢你三個處多一個處剛剛呢有委員問你你的人員編制有沒有增加"},{"start":378.732,"end":379.653,"text":"主委其實很多事情要先跨出第一步因為"},{"start":406.235,"end":434.397,"text":"我剛才跟那個委員報告過因為我們現在社局牽動到中央部會的組織我知道人事總署說當中到底還沒有二次機關本席也就有去打聽過了好像空間相對有限但是整個行政院的主改過程當中過往財經部門不曾主改你有沒有印象幾乎這一段時間幾乎不曾主改也就是說你是不是大體來想你是不是思考一個比較長期性的一個政策規劃當中來作為一個思考"},{"start":436.858,"end":463.71,"text":"因為最近行政院有提出啊要將體育署成格為體育部啊也就是將來還有整體一個主改的計畫嘛當這個主改計畫來臨的時候你就要適時的推出這個整個財經部門金管會的位階是否要提升從會提升為部那部的部分組織的編制就可以增加編制可以增加人員可以增加你的業務推動才有比較有可能順遂的可能嘛是"},{"start":464.691,"end":479.845,"text":"這個確實是我們長遠的規劃的想法所以說你有期待把這個處變成部囉這個倒不敢我現在是至少未來如果有可能成為先有局先有局這個概念是我們可能未來想要規劃先有局"},{"start":480.566,"end":507.218,"text":"先有局當然是一個好啊先有處先有局先有部你現在是循序漸進的方式來處理但是這是由下而上的方式也有由上而下的方式啊不是嗎這也是一個思考我們會來講對那你應該做一個整體的規劃嘛創造你這個主改的正當性嘛是不過你一路的哀求人事總處那邊也不一定會施放多少人力給你啊不是嗎我們大家內行的嘛都比較白嘛對不對"},{"start":507.958,"end":528.334,"text":"啊如果是這樣子你不如由上而下速度會比較快一點啊謝謝可不可以從這邊來進行規劃主委好我覺得這是可以來思考方向對啊你要趕快進行主導而不是隨便弄一個金融創新數來俘虜本席而且最重要的是你後面具體的做法過往啊"},{"start":528.934,"end":542.5,"text":"在整個金融創新處本席之所以會那麼的care的原因是因為譬如講以我們的沙盒實驗啊我們沙盒實驗都希望業者去啊"},{"start":544.06,"end":572.341,"text":"將就於既有的法令但是呢卻沒有要求業者去創造一個新的業別的可能性因為你將就既有回應因為跟既有的業者有所競爭嘛我今天很開心你提出你要針對一個沙盒的一個這個創新的這個條例對不對這個是有具體作為的當你有這樣的法的時候你更需要有這樣的人員的編制啊不是嗎那你現在如果通過這個條例之後你的KPI有多少呢"},{"start":573.041,"end":583.643,"text":"你希望能夠增加多少?最近沙盒實驗裡頭幾乎都沒有成功的案例啊!幾乎啦!所以我們現在會來大力推動我們的三頁的事辦"},{"start":584.451,"end":608.361,"text":"好那本席期待你的具體的作為我做一個廣泛性的提醒而且這個金融創新書當中還有一個虛擬貨幣的一個問題這虛擬貨幣的部分本席就一再的強調你們不要過度的自我限縮你們不要想要採取深度的監管應該採取廣度的監管也就是說你們現在納入所謂的這一個"},{"start":609.341,"end":626.909,"text":"那個法尊的申請當中才進行20家左右明明還有60幾家之多主委我請問你一下你有沒有可能進行廣度的一個監管把這個其他業者申請當中你說快速的納入有沒有可能這個部分我們已經透過那個政績局跟櫃買在做審查了我們想說這個我們會趕快來朝向開放"},{"start":629.15,"end":642.089,"text":"對不對就是因為社會有對納管的這個這樣的期待你既然第一個任務是要打詐的話你這一個問題就不能迴避而且要積極處理第一個本席建議你"},{"start":643.41,"end":666.829,"text":"那個深度監理要朝向廣度監理這剩下的這幾家在申請當中要趕快讓他擁有這個法證聲明第二個的部分差異性的管理也要OTC的部分、交易所的部分、個人B3的部分都要納管啊這樣的情況底下你才有機會啊再透過這種虛擬貨幣詐騙的部分你再生徹底的防堵徹底的賭詐有沒有可能"},{"start":667.609,"end":669.57,"text":"有關剛剛講的資料在後補提供"}]}},{"id":"152783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dfb4eb1f5c15bcc8c6fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017b53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:33:36 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10:48:31","影片長度":"00:14:55","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":895,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:48:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:33:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時33分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。"],["李部長遠：你好。"],["林委員宜瑾：迫不及待安排您今天就來本委員會備詢，基本上也是因為我們很多委員都迫不及待想看見您。平常都在電視上或報章雜誌上看見您，所以我想今天你來擔任文化部長當然是任重道遠。","開門見山，我有一些問題想要跟您請教。部長2006年擔任華視總經理時，批評過公共電視文化事業基金會處處干預華視，導致華視「非公非商」、「四不像」，後來還不惜辭職，捍衛華視的權益。請問部長，為了改善華視經營問題，你現在還有那股衝勁嗎？如果第一步是要處理民股買回，你有說要協調修法等等，具體而言到底該怎麼做才能改善華視目前的狀況？"],["李部長遠：謝謝你問這個問題，讓我有機會稍微更正一下，其實我當初覺得我們都沒有人有經驗怎麼樣把華視捐給公視，華視是35年，公視是8年，從來沒有人做過公廣集團，所以我必須承認，我當時有一直批評，後來我也跟當時的公視總經理──現在在場的胡元輝總經理道歉，因為我的語言非常粗暴，所以我最後是跟他道歉完，做完一任才下來的，我並沒有用辭職來抗議。事隔18年，我們回頭看華視跟公視的關係，第一個，公廣集團又變得更大，然後又多了一個華視新聞頻道，公廣集團本身的人員和經費又不是18年前可以比的，它變得更龐大了。我覺得華視的問題第一個是，今天在臺灣這麼多頻道在競爭的情況下，華視如何成為一個大家都很愛看的電視台，還有華視新聞因為它播報很公正，成為大家很喜歡看的一個華視新聞台是非常重要的。第二個，既然公共廣播集團已經這麼有力量的話，我會希望用各種方式支持公廣集團協助華視壯大。","但是華視面臨的兩個問題都是非常困難的問題，一個就是民股買回，就在我一去的那一年就發生問題，因為在法律上面，民股要買回這件事情沒有說清楚，所以民股要不要賣給公股、賣給公視，或者是華視本身也有能力買回民股都可以，而民股要不要賣不是我們能夠決定的事情。另外一個是附負擔捐贈，當時我面臨兩個問題，就是華視既然沒有享受公共電視的條件，卻要執行公共電視的任務的話，附負擔捐贈是很重要的，可是因為它非公非商，所以附負擔捐贈不能夠捐給它。但是問題也得到解決，就是這幾年來，文化部給了華視器材的整建、修建還有拍電影的費用，我記得加起來大概有7億，這7億是在不同的年份編預算，你也可以把它看成是另外一種附負擔捐贈，比我那個年代好太多了。以上大概就是這樣子。"],["林委員宜瑾：對於華視現在面臨的困境，相信部長上任之後一定會有所改善。但是請教部長，現在華視究竟是商業電視台，還是公共化的無線電視事業？您認為呢？現在的狀況。"],["李部長遠：當初捐給公共電視的時候是希望它能自力更生，它還是可以有商業廣告收入，但是又受到某種限制，就是它跟一般的商業台又不太一樣，它不能有政論節目，也不能有宗教節目……"],["林委員宜瑾：也不能有政治的廣告。"],["李部長遠：對，它是具備公共性質的商業台，所以它本身在界定上就是有點模糊的。我對它的期待就是，它應該就在這樣一個夾縫中，透過公共廣播集團給它更多的資源，成為一個更好的商業台，能夠生產更好的戲劇節目。我們可以回頭看看最近的八點檔或者是……"],["林委員宜瑾：是，很多！"],["李部長遠：都比以前好很多。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，部長講到重點了。如果依公股處理條例第十四條，主管機關本來就「得」編列預算，附負擔捐贈公股占比超過50%的公共化無線電視事業。部長剛剛也提到附負擔捐贈的問題，當然，我們過去都沒有每年編列附負擔捐贈給華視，您剛剛也提到過去有一些預算補助給華視，有點等同於附負擔捐贈的概念，但還是沒有每年去做編列附負擔捐贈的動作，請問您擔任部長之後，未來會不會每年持續編列附負擔捐贈給華視？"],["李部長遠：這好像不是我們文化部想編就可以編，但是因為這個時機非常好，就是我跟胡董事長兩個人做過好幾次公廣集團的同事，我們私下也見過面，非常誠懇地談未來怎麼解決，我想我會想辦法提出一個很好的解決方式，在院會中爭取行政院的支持。"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解。","另外想跟您討論的是，賴清德總統在就職演說中有提到兩個跟文化部相關的工作面向，我想您應該也聽得很清楚，第一個是轉型正義等改革工作要繼續做下去，第二個是要保有多元族群文化，讓文化永續。可是在文化部今天的業務報告中，我卻看不到任何對於轉型正義的相關規劃，也隻字未提文化部轄下最大的威權違章建築──就是中正紀念堂究竟該如何轉型的問題。請問部長，關於中正紀念堂的轉型，文化部到底要做還是不做？剛剛柯志恩召委也有提到這個問題，可是他也沒有問得很詳細，所以我想跟你做進一步的討論。","這個問題是複雜的，我也不是只有現在才問您，在李永得部長的時代、在史哲部長的時代，我每個部長都問過。當然，我是非常關心這個事情，其實李永得部長當初的回答讓我覺得心有戚戚焉，他認為中正紀念堂百分之百是威權，它的一磚一瓦都是在紀念蔣介石，所以如果面對這樣子的概念，當然轉型正義不是一蹴可幾，所以我們要怎麼樣來逐步進行轉型正義？當然，由國家帶頭崇拜獨裁者確實是荒謬的，也不尊重我們擁有不同歷史記憶的國人，特別是一些政治受難者的家屬。對於要怎麼樣來轉型，我具體建議在堂體的三軍儀隊是不是可以先移到所謂的升降旗臺那裡？因為我們知道現在中正紀念堂就如同您剛剛講的，為很多的觀光、休閒提供一個很好的場域，很多觀光客也常來到中正紀念堂，而三軍儀隊這些展演也是很多觀光客愛看的，可是我們的象徵意義很清楚，他在堂體，他好像還在保護或是擁護所謂的威權，他如果來到升降旗臺，在這個廣場中，是不是就會轉移這類象徵的意義？所以我想請教部長，您怎麼看這個問題？"],["李部長遠：我想這件事我們要跟國防部來溝通，他們已經對外表達，那個儀隊是一種儀式，而不是表演，所以他已經表達說要嘛就撤，要嘛就不撤，他已經不堅持不撤，他就把這個問題丟給我們。這個問題其實我應該這樣講，我覺得從當時蓋了中正紀念堂之後，陳水扁總統上任之後就好像把它降級了，就把儀隊撤掉，然後把大中至正改成自由廣場，可是八年後，馬英九總統上任後，又把中正紀念堂升級，再把三軍儀隊恢復。我覺得三軍儀隊好像工具一般的被大家搬來搬去，從我比較人道的立場來講，他不是一個讓大家在政權轉換中移來移去的，所以我會怎麼做呢？我覺得現在的中正紀念堂跟過去已經不太一樣，為什麼？你走到中正紀念堂裡面，你看到它有一個對於蔣中正從頭到尾的歷史、正面跟負面的展覽，成為一個常設展，而且裡面的照片都變了。第二，已經對外徵求所有人去想像中正紀念堂應該變成什麼樣子，那個展覽我看了很多遍，因為我家就住在隔壁，我連中正紀念堂原來沒有鴿子，到後來有9隻鴿子，到現在鴿子鴿孫都陪伴小孩長大，甚至我還寫過童話，就是中正紀念堂的鴿子。","我覺得它的演變是很自然的演變，就像鴿子從9隻變一大堆一樣，本來有一條杉樹林，大家都不能進去，後來民眾去踩一踩、踩一踩，那個杉樹林就解除了禁令，民眾都可以散步，每天早上九點半都會有一個人站在那邊開始講白色恐怖是怎麼發生的，從九點半講到十點半，然後他講完之後離開。你會很好奇他在白色恐怖裡面扮演什麼角色？他其實認為自己是一個被害者，事實上，從別人的眼光看，他是一個加害者。一切的一切在我們生活中都發生，白色恐怖這件事情，可是我覺得臺灣現在需要的是一種在一個有共識下往下做……"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["李部長遠：因為我覺得以目前這個政治生態，我不想用很強迫的方式，用我覺得對的方式往下做。我有我個人的想法，在我的家族裡面，我的4個舅舅裡面有3個是白色恐怖……但是我不會用我個人的理由去面對這個事情。我們可以從文學作品裡面看到，很多人寫白色恐怖的文學作品，最近有好幾部電影也拍白色恐怖，我覺得像這樣的東西是透過文學、透過音樂、透過電影，讓大家慢慢有共識，認為它不是一個敵對的東西，我是想用這個方式來處理中正紀念堂。"],["林委員宜瑾：轉型正義的意義也是這樣，因為賴清德總統就職，他對轉型正義的工作要持續做，轉型正義的工作是分到每個部會去，在文化部中正紀念堂當然是一個很重要的事情，所以我還是認為，三軍儀隊就算不撤離所謂的中正紀念堂，因為你說政權轉移讓他搬來搬去，但是我還是強烈認為，他應該要移出所謂的堂體，這個象徵意涵是什麼？就是對個人的效忠轉為對國家的忠誠，三軍儀隊本來就是對國家效忠，而不是對個人效忠，所以我想這個是一個轉型正義很重要意義的表徵，所以這個請部長再思考看看。","我想再借一點點時間，剛剛提到語言的問題，因為賴清德總統也有揭示，在文化永續方面，語言的保存是非常重要，剛剛也有委員提到，現在因為我們有客委會、原民會，所以包括客語、原民語都有專責的中央部會，也有對應的專法，但臺語散落在各個部會，包括教育部跟文化部，可是文化部又是國家語言發展法的主責單位，所以在臺語的推廣上面，我覺得文化部責無旁貸，在臺語的部分不曉得部長你有什麼樣的想法？"],["李部長遠：很多人都期待文化部扮演一個推廣臺語的角色，我想這點是毋庸置疑的，而且我上任前已經很多單位來找我，也強調臺語傳承的重要。我個人在成長經驗中是全班唯一不會講臺語的外省第二代，可是我們老師是用臺語上課，所以我後來有能力做一個像鳳飛飛臺語歌謠的策劃者，從不懂臺語，到熱愛臺語，到有能力做出臺語歌謠，所以我對臺語的情感是很深的，這點我想不用擔心，我會開始往下做，至於在什麼時候完成語言研究，因為它涉及到一個組織法，我想我們內部有一點默契會往下推。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，希望文化部未來對於臺語的傳承、復振這個工作要更加加油。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委，部長請回座。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：謝謝，再來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_000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既然公安廣播集團已經這麼有力量的話我會希望用各種方式支持這個公安集團協助華視壯大但是華視面臨的兩個問題都是一個非常困難的問題一個就是民股買回就在我去的那一年就發生問題因為在法律上面民股要買回這件事情"},{"start":173.314,"end":173.634,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":193.897,"end":194.257,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":217.264,"end":217.504,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":232.544,"end":233.344,"text":"目前華視是商業電視台還是公共化無線電視事業?"},{"start":255.476,"end":283.354,"text":"當初捐給公共電視的時候是希望他能夠自力更生他還是可以有商業廣告然後有商業廣告收入但是又受到某種限制就是說他跟一般的商業台又不太一樣他不能有政論節目也不能有宗教節目也不能有這個政治的廣告對他具備了公共性質的商業台是是是所以他本身就是一個在界定上有一點模糊的然後我對他的期待就是"},{"start":284.773,"end":284.853,"text":"部長講到重點了"},{"start":303.226,"end":306.689,"text":"就說我們如果依這個公股處理條例第11條 主管單位機關本來就得這個編列這個負負擔捐贈給這個所謂的戰股 超過50%的這個公共化的無線電視事業所以嘛 您剛剛有提到負負擔捐贈的問題 那當然過去我們都沒有每年編列負負擔捐贈給"},{"start":326.447,"end":349.262,"text":"華氏那您剛剛也提到過去有一些的預算的補助給華氏有點像等同於負負擔捐贈的這樣概念可是他還是沒有每年去編列負負擔捐贈這是這樣的一個動作所以我想說未來您當部長之後未來您會不會來每年持續編列負負擔捐贈給華氏"},{"start":350.723,"end":350.883,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":369.91,"end":390.976,"text":"提出一個很好的解決方式在院會上爭取行政院的支持瞭解好那另外想跟你討論就是說賴清德總統就職演說中他有提到兩個很大的跟文化部相關的工作面向第一個我想你應該也聽得很清楚"},{"start":391.476,"end":391.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":410.49,"end":411.591,"text":"關於中正紀念堂的轉型 文化部到底做還是不做"},{"start":426.2,"end":452.338,"text":"剛剛柯思恩召委也有提到這個問題可是他當然也沒有問得很詳細那我想再跟你進一步討論說當然這個問題是複雜的那當然我也不是只有現在才問您在李永德部長的時代在史哲的部長時代我每一個部長都問過那當然我是非常關心這個事情那李永德部長其實當初他的回答是讓我覺得"},{"start":454.699,"end":477.272,"text":"和我的新友七七煙他認為中正紀念堂百分之百是威權他的一磚一瓦都是在紀念蔣介石所以如果面對這樣子的概念的話那他的轉型正義當然轉型正義不是一觸可擊所以我們要怎麼樣逐步來轉型正義那當然由國家帶頭崇拜這個獨裁者"},{"start":480.234,"end":480.974,"text":"我具體建議就是說我們是不是在這個所謂的三軍一隊在堂體的三軍一隊"},{"start":502.424,"end":517.808,"text":"是不是可以來先移到所謂的升降騎台那裡因為我們知道現在中正堂就如同您剛講的現在很多的觀光啊那休閒啊這是一個提供很好的場域那很多觀光客其實也常來到中正堂那其實三軍儀隊這些展演也是很多觀光客愛看的"},{"start":523.59,"end":546.615,"text":"可是我們的象徵意義很清楚就是說他在堂體他就是好像還在這個這個保護或這個擁護這個所謂的威權那他如果來到升降騎台在這個廣場中那是不是就是會轉移這個這個這樣的一個意義的象徵所以我想請教部長您怎麼看這個問題"},{"start":547.984,"end":564.493,"text":"我想國安部其實我們這個事情要跟國安部來溝通他們已經對外表達說他那個儀隊是一種儀式而不是表演所以他已經表達說要麽就撤要麽就不撤他已經不堅持不撤他把這問題對給我們那這個問題其實我應該這樣講我覺得中正紀念堂從當時蓋了中正紀念堂之後"},{"start":575.778,"end":602.104,"text":"陳水扁總統上任之後就好像把他降級了然後就把那個儀隊撤掉然後把大中資政改成自由廣場可是8年後馬英九總統上任後又把總統新常升級然後再把三軍儀隊全部回復你不覺得我覺得三軍儀隊好像工具一般的被大家搬來搬去從我比較人道立場來講他不是一個讓大家"},{"start":603.044,"end":603.284,"text":"李宜瑾"},{"start":627.267,"end":653.673,"text":"已經對外徵求了所有人去想像中中正經驗堂應該變成什麼樣子那那個展覽我看了很多遍因為我家就住在隔壁我連中正經驗堂原來沒有鴿子到後來有九隻鴿子到現在鴿子 鴿孫我都陪伴小孩長大甚至我還寫過童話就是中正經驗堂的鴿子我覺得它的演變是很自然的演變就像鴿子從九隻變一大堆一樣本來有一條山樹林"},{"start":655.134,"end":682.586,"text":"大家都不能進去的後來民眾去踩一踩踩一踩那個山樹林就被人解除了禁令民眾都可以散步每天早上九點半都會有一個人站在那邊開始講白色恐怖是怎麼發生的九點半講到十點半然後他講完之後離開你會很好奇他在白色恐怖裡面扮演什麼角色他其實認為自己是一個被害者那事實上從別人眼光看他是一個加害者"},{"start":683.766,"end":706.774,"text":"一切的一切在我們生活中都發生還是恐怖這件事情那可是我覺得台灣現在需要的是一種在一個有共識下往下做當然因為我覺得以目前這個政治生態我不想用很強迫的方式用我覺得對的方式往下做我有我個人的想法是我的家族裡面有"},{"start":707.748,"end":712.946,"text":"我舅舅有四個裡面有三個是白色恐怖但是我不會用我個人的理由去面對這個事情"},{"start":715.281,"end":715.581,"text":"轉型正義的意義也是這樣"},{"start":739.565,"end":757.654,"text":"﹗"},{"start":757.694,"end":757.894,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":779.757,"end":784.981,"text":"拜託再考慮一下這是一個轉型正義很重要意義的表徵那好那我想再借一點點時間就是說我想跟談到剛剛提到就是所謂的這個語言的問題因為"},{"start":795.789,"end":817.88,"text":"總統賴慶德也有揭示文化的永續和語言的保存是非常重要當然剛剛也有委員提到現在因為語言我們有課委會我們有原民會包括課與原民會我們都有專責中央部會也有對應的專法那台語它散落在包括各個部會包括教育部跟文化部"},{"start":818.22,"end":843.918,"text":"可是文化部又是所謂國家語言發展法組織的單位所以在台語的推廣上面我覺得這個部分這個文化部責無旁貸那不曉得部長你有什麼樣的想法在台語的部分我想很多人都期待文化部扮演一個比較推廣台語的那個角色我想這一點是無庸置疑的而且我來我來上任前已經很多單位來找我也強調台語的傳承的重要我個人在成長經驗中"},{"start":848.576,"end":849.176,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":873.582,"end":875.043,"text":"謝謝李展昭委部長請回座"}]}},{"id":"152782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d41784ae87d3d11c63a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017eedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"10:34:50 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4.272,"text":"則不予審查．。．"},{"start":81.871,"end":103.802,"text":"這個我還是要進一步請教副主委您們怎麼看就像我們今天提到的這個我們今天的修法內容雖然本席的這個提案的法案因為程序的關係還來不及併案審查但是您剛在答詢的時候也針對我的提案其實應該這個也是國發會未來修法的這樣的一個重點"},{"start":105.523,"end":118.773,"text":"那您覺得,就我剛剛提出的這個問題跟未來我們如果照這樣子的一個修法通過,您覺得這樣的誘因足夠嗎?足夠讓您在很快的時間內能夠達標來填補這樣一個人力短缺嗎?來副主委。好。"},{"start":123.939,"end":152.288,"text":"那我先回答委員的第一個問題就是說因為我們也知道我們有僑外生評點制度所以其實如果他願意來這邊就讀然後取得學會幾乎有一半的人會留下來所以我們怎麼樣去擴充僑外生來台就學的這個人數其實就非常的重要那教育部其實他們有一些既定的規劃甚至他們染柴甚至到要到東南亞去直接的設點"},{"start":153.368,"end":153.388,"text":"邱議瑩．"},{"start":180.832,"end":208.931,"text":"所以副主你講的這個部分是有來念書的你覺得可以適度的來補充我剛剛提到的這一塊那如果沒有來台灣念書的呢就有一些企業這個可能那個勞動部要上來一下這個就在服務法裡頭的規定我們可以聘一些外國人"},{"start":210.421,"end":229.355,"text":"但是相關的法令規定其實是有一些嚴苛剛剛國發會講的是利用僱外生那現在如果在企業界裡面我現在提到你們這個就業扶法裡面就講了嘛你規定要設立未滿一年的公司實收資本額要達到500萬以上營業額要達到1000萬以上那根據這個稅籍的登記台灣的資本額在500萬以上的企業只有佔18%"},{"start":244.751,"end":256.606,"text":"國發會,我們現在對於留學生的就業的政策比較,台灣跟日本相對是嚴格的。香港、加拿大、法國、德國相對是比較寬鬆,他們有什麼特別特殊的要求?"},{"start":257.808,"end":275.605,"text":"那我們呢還算是在最嚴格的這一端比如說你要規定公司的資本額要500萬以上營業額要達1000萬以上當然我知道問過你們你們說因為很怕那種人頭公司去設立假公司然後去專門聘用外國人"},{"start":276.246,"end":304.158,"text":"那這個考量也是對問題是對於很多正常設立的企業他根本不知道他如何甚至他能不能很快速的來聘用這一些外國人或者是僱外生對企業的聘用來講那個流程他們完全不清楚不了解甚至我們現在講很多的外國的自由的藝術工作者"},{"start":304.798,"end":316.706,"text":"他其實是沒有特定故局的。那就我們現在的相關的法令的規範其實他們要留在台灣是不容易的啊。勞動部你們怎麼看?"},{"start":319.102,"end":345.835,"text":"是。那謝謝委員的指教。有關僱外生的協助留在台灣工作的部分目前我們短期內是朝向先把我們每年的各一個合配的這個評點制的這個原理的部分再做擴充甚至也配合相關部會的期望去把這個評點制裡面的項目再做一些放寬點數再做一些增加來鼓勵他們有機會能夠符合相關的規定至於雇主的部分剛剛委員也提到了我們主要的顧慮其實在於說這些雇主"},{"start":346.155,"end":346.175,"text":"邱議瑩"},{"start":376.275,"end":376.295,"text":"邱議瑩"},{"start":392.133,"end":415.303,"text":"主要第一個向各個企業這邊去做宣導這個教育部跟我們都持續在進行第二個這裡面的會商的程序有沒有可以再精簡的地方這個部分我們再來跟部會做一些其實我是覺得這樣啦勞動部當然的立場一定是要保護本國勞工但是你們沒有去考量各個不同的企業對於各個不同國籍人士的專業人士的需求"},{"start":416.303,"end":416.323,"text":"邱議瑩﹗"},{"start":433.695,"end":435.056,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,這部分我們注意他的橫平性,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d34dbc5fbfa274e4a49cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d2017141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:26:18 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bond他們發了8000多億在2月的時候臺灣也沒有過所以我的確現在在說服幾位的閣員我們來研究看看這件事情可以怎麼走部長你談到這裡本強是告訴你務實的去做沒錯我們雖然可以拿全世界各國這非常好"},{"start":213.846,"end":221.813,"text":"但是你自己根基基本盤沒有好什麼都不用講你今天跟產業對話你預計要什麼時候跟產業對話產業已經好緊張欸產業好緊張欸我怎麼辦我連時間點都要追蹤欸那你什麼時候有沒有規劃你要跟產業對話有沒有"},{"start":234.063,"end":245.629,"text":"呃我隨時都是跟產業在互動啦報告委員其實委員其實真的產業你隨時在這裡回答都有錄音錄影你不要隨便回答什麼叫隨時現在不是報報氣象啊是是好嗎好沒問題不可以這樣回答的"},{"start":252.659,"end":273.266,"text":"你有沒有預估因為你剛就職第二天我也謝謝你就直接就這個章偉邀請你就來那因為這個議題非常重要所以本席是建議你你什麼時候要跟產業來去了解探討因為你首批的探費徵收你的對象是"},{"start":275.314,"end":297.197,"text":"這個排蛋量超過2.5萬公噸的產業所以因此你的徵收對象你的標準你的徵收方式那你要怎麼去規劃中長期你要怎麼規劃這個是你的功課欸但是你的功課你對象你不跟他對談那你去這怎麼辦啊你沒有對象你怎麼執行啊"},{"start":298.683,"end":304.688,"text":"你有沒有考慮在你就職之後跟產業對話瞭解產業的需求因為六月七月初就要開第四次會議因為這個議題部長我們之前每一次我們一直很詳實理性的在討論所以我也要把這個告訴你"},{"start":320.199,"end":322.181,"text":"5月10日、5月14日、5月15日、5月17日、17日上午下午都有,包含了電子業、紡織業、造紙業、水泥業,其實要徵收500家一定要對話"},{"start":345.274,"end":371.235,"text":"因為未來執行是他們一定要對話你的政策一定要能夠落實你制定一個政策沒有辦法落實那這個會社會大亂欸產業界不可以亂欸這是我們的命脈欸報告委員我觀察是很多的大家對於碳費的認知或是碳定價的認知有一些誤解所以我們也希望用這個機會讓大家知道所以你們對話把你們這7場次討論的方向"},{"start":375.298,"end":390.653,"text":"產業的需求是如何請詳時順便資料給本席我們一起繼續好好的來協助達到三贏的政策那接下來本席要請教本席要請教就是說能源的政策供電不穩能源配比"},{"start":391.721,"end":412.907,"text":"我們臺中的火力化電廠八成是煤雖然遞減第一滴滴滴滴滴我們很期待中部人用廢發電已經貢獻良多了不可以再欺負我們所以在這樣的一個情況之下請教2025年的非核家園這一個政策會不會拿出來重新討論請教部長"},{"start":415.524,"end":443.186,"text":"報告委員我是環境部長我是遵守環境基本法目前我們的那個環境基本法第23條有定要達成輝和家園的目標但是王前部長也已經說了2025年是達不到的所以不斷的跳針跳針跳針啦跳票跳票跳票所以我非常的期待你來自我們的氣象專家你也素養非常高我對你期待很高"},{"start":444.467,"end":466.164,"text":"請教環境基準法第23條也就是非核家園的這個部分在目前我們所需的能源你的立場會不會拿出來檢討我個人認為是因為所謂能源政策是屬於我們的國家的大政是需要跨部會來做協調的你的立場我的立場我是遵守環境基本法非核家園的政策目前社會的需求"},{"start":467.543,"end":496.009,"text":"會不會拿出來檢討這個裡面我個人其實認為是說有兩個問題就是說到底我們的能源夠不夠我們的這個提供的夠不夠或是我們需求的夠不夠所以部長你回答到這裡也就是一個正午橫向的聯繫一定要夠我告訴你郭部長說他上任之後他非常負責任要將全國的蓄電量做一個總檢討報告給國人他認定為核電是乾淨的能源也是綠電"},{"start":497.85,"end":513.11,"text":"這個訊息告訴你應該你在媒體上面都已經有看到所以我們希望耳聽八方眼光四方好好的來聽到大家的需求去做正確的判斷好不好所以最後一個結論因為"},{"start":517.385,"end":540.777,"text":"內總統對於近鄰轉型有不同的想法所以你這個會推動近鄰轉型五大策略以及綠色成長策略對不對對沒錯這也是你擔任部長非常重要的這個工作目標嘛沒錯是不是是那本期也希望因為呢我們看到了這些的報導"},{"start":541.957,"end":548.586,"text":"有很多的羞恥但是我們希望能夠有實際的政策跟動作來協助產業協助社會"},{"start":551.603,"end":576.215,"text":"讓政府可以達到三贏這是你的必要做的事情所以我在這邊也請你將你認為總統先生所指示的這個方向你預計要怎麼做請詳實的書面資料給本席我們再來一起好好討論好不好沒問題沒問題這個問題非常的大不是沒有問題沒有問題我報告會來給委員好努力加油謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":577.705,"end":582.961,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"152780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d13232be33b0c273149cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20178a5713b642961ecf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:14:04 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10:26:12","影片長度":"00:12:08","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":728,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:26:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:14:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時14分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["王委員育敏：彭部長，恭喜你來就任環境部部長的位置。一方面是恭喜，一方面也為你有一點小擔憂，主要是環境部的業務就像你剛剛的報告，其實面向非常的廣，那您過去其實是氣象達人、氣象專家，大家都非常熟悉，對於其他面向你比較不瞭解的部分，可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣來迎頭趕上。我不曉得你從上任到現在有沒有感覺到有一種被追趕的壓力？"],["彭部長啓明：的確，每天半夜都會醒過來。"],["王委員育敏：半夜醒過來喔！"],["彭部長啓明：因為要懂的還有很多、很多，要跟我們同仁多學習。"],["王委員育敏：對，在衛環的幾項業務當中，我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧、比較專業、比較難懂，但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺，因為有好的體力才可以應付立法院的質詢。第一個，本席要請教你的是考古題，事實上，我也問過上一任的部長，我同樣要來請教你。如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這些碳排，你可以發現，事實上，它一直都沒有辦法有效的減少。我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會，其實氣候變遷大會對於各國都有一些碳排的要求，但是臺灣一直都沒有達標，這個你應該也清楚。我想請教你的第一個問題就是，如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分，那今天賴清德總統重用你，您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低碳排？您當時在民間有參加過氣候變遷大會，你從一個旁觀者的角度看到為什麼我們臺灣的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少？今天你在部長的這個位置上，你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡？你要怎麼樣去解決這個問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出身，民間也有很多的意見，那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了。所以找我來做的工作就是像你所說的，我要來解決這個問題。關於這個問題，我必須很坦誠的說，這不是只有環境部的事，所以我的角色是會進行多種的跨部會合作，希望大家一起來談，因為這不只是我環境部的責任，我是在末端算碳排的責任，所以這個是要大家各個部會一起來承擔。因為卓院長也有這樣的很高的認知，所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度，就讓我放手來做這個事情，也請委員給我支持、給我鼓勵。"],["王委員育敏：好，那你剛剛講到一個重點，就是環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會，要求他們來配合？這個的確是一個長期的問題。接下來我讓你看這一張，在我們現在的碳排裡面，運輸部門的碳排是不減反增。交通部是一個大部會，交通政策沒有淨零、有碳排，在2022年它這個運輸的部分還超越了工業，你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決？你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的，但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的，請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要配合環境部的政策？過去的部長是做不到的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我來自民間，所以比較有彈性，對我來說，政府就是一體的，在這段期間，雖然我還沒上任，我也跟很多的部長談我們可不可以來合作？而我的確是彎下腰來希望跨部會進行多一點合作。當然，這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力，光靠我一個人沒有辦法。基本上，不是只有交通，還包含農業，甚至醫療等等，全部都是跨部會的，所以我沒有辦法自己一個人就可以跟大家承諾要淨零碳排，所以我的確會更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起合作，希望大家來看看那個數字，達成這樣的目標。"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子，其實應該讓你在更高的位置。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢、不敢。"],["王委員育敏：就是政委的層級才可以協調部會、要求部會配合你啊！因為在公部門就是這樣，各部會都是平行單位，其實誰也不聽誰的，環境部其他官員的感受應該很深。大家一起開會，大家都一樣大，交通部長也可能覺得交通部比環境部大，因為交通部是大部啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，根據我的經驗，權力的大小不是來自於官位，而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力，所以我會積極地去做，希望我持續在明年還有這樣的熱情，我會努力啦！"],["王委員育敏：好，我們看到一個樂觀的部長。"],["彭部長啓明：我是正向的啦！"],["王委員育敏：對，我知道，部長看起來非常的樂觀，但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長，就是這件事情如果要辦得成，他以一個行政院院長之姿，他可能還要派一個政委來協助你，就是你們必須連成一條線，才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動、配合，這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的，我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委，是哪一位？"],["彭部長啓明：目前還沒有……"],["王委員育敏：還沒有確定？"],["彭部長啓明：但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持。"],["王委員育敏：卓院長不能只是口頭支持，我覺得行政資源加上一位政委的力量，而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議，把部長叫來，正式告訴他說，這件事他就是授權環境部！未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排，由環境部來做主責單位，各部會應該要配合！這個是告訴部長，你可以回去要求的，這樣你才會有實權，以後開的會才會有效益，要不然都是開一開就算了，人家真的不會聽你的，這個是你要有的現實感，這是非常重要的。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個部分請你就是……我覺得你有樂觀的態度，願意溝通的精神很好，但是在行政部門講求的是權力，那個權力還是很重要，要有真正的授權。","另外一個是你自己就可以決定的，碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案！上一個部長我問他，他沒有答案！您是新任的部長，我想問你，你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標？環境部可以自己作決定嗎？涉及到中小企業就還是得看經濟部的臉色？因為這件事情曾經一度停擺，而且媒體還傳出來，不見得是明年要上路，可以一延再延。我不知道部長，賴總統或是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標？還是遇到經濟部就得要轉彎？如果有反彈，中小企業統統都反彈，那這件事情連一步都跨不出去！因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題，到目前為止開好像沒有開。事實上你們早就有腹案了，我對前一個部長也是這樣子講，早就有腹案卻不敢端出來，因為企業都還有意見，那這部分你要怎麼處理？這是你手上就可以處理的，你敢不敢把車開出去？"],["彭部長啓明：我從我的立場來想，這個車一定要趕快開，縱使影子價格，就是零也可以開，我認為這是最重要的。因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理，所以我個人是支持一定要趕快進行。不過我也跟委員報告，目前的制度，當時氣候變遷因應法設下的規定，我沒有辦法決定多少錢啦！如果我可以決定，我可能下個月就告訴你了，所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的制度來進行的，我絕對會請我的次長能夠加快，因為他是主席，會加快地來開這個會。"],["王委員育敏：對，因為部長換新的，次長沒有換，次長上一次就是再延宕了。次長，新的部長來，你會加速你的進度嗎？不同的部長，你會有不同的作為嗎？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，因為政策不論是哪一個部長，我們整體的政策就是依法來執行。要再跟委員報告的是說，我們前三次的會議確實沒有涉及到費率的討論。"],["王委員育敏：是，不敢碰。"],["施次長文真：因為我們做制度的介紹，我們下一次的會現在在調查，6月底跟7月初，我們這一次就依照委員的建議，我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估，要一起做一個完整的報告，讓費率審議會的委員們來參考、來進行討論。"],["王委員育敏：所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到費率的問題？"],["施次長文真：下一次會有評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議。"],["王委員育敏：好，現在最大的阻力是什麼？企業的反彈，對不對？"],["施次長文真：因為我們委員們的組成，包括了企業，也包了不同的部門，還有包括民間團體和專家學者，所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界對於碳費制度的期待，我們都會一起考慮進去，也不見得只有企業，其實民間團體也有很多的想法。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼之前一度傳出，可能明年也不會上路？你有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["施次長文真：有，因為新聞有……"],["王委員育敏：那是誰定調的？不是環境部，是更高層？"],["施次長文真：這個……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["施次長文真：好像沒有……"],["王委員育敏：那怎麼會傳出這個消息？我看到，你有看到吧？"],["施次長文真：有，每一個報紙都有。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["施次長文真：有看到。"],["王委員育敏：那是從哪裡來？"],["施次長文真：因為我們沒有接到這個政策……"],["王委員育敏：會不會是經濟部自己講的？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，這個是我們決定的。"],["王委員育敏：你們決定的嘛！你們的人都沒有講？是媒體自己……那個假消息是從哪裡來的？"],["彭部長啓明：不過跟委員報告，其實從我們過去的經驗、參加COP會議的經驗，其實碳費只是一個工具，還有別的，所以我也跟我們同仁講，我們要跟先進好的國家學習，例如說新加坡或是日本等等，他們有一些配套的措施。所以碳費只不過是碳定價的一個工具而已，我希望在我的任內，可以積極發展多元的工具，促進減量，那個量可以減下去才是關鍵。"],["王委員育敏：當然！量減下去才是關鍵，但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可？因為它就是一個強而有力的工具，逼著大家你非減不可，要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本，所以這件事情，我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心，就是說，會不會做得成，這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄，這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇。因為如果再一次放軟、退縮，然後沒有期程，那這個大家就會覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣，我們臺灣沒有一個強悍的部長，為了這個減碳就是強力執行到底，所以彭部長，你的歷史定位，在碳費的這件事情上面，它其實還滿關鍵的，希望你新職上任，一切可以順利，但是環境部真的不是那麼好做。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["王委員育敏：它必須展現一定的、執政的公權力，因為你很多時候都要面對四面八方希望你退讓的，但是你怎麼樣堅定地展現你的公權力，同時你又有柔軟的身段去溝通，最後達成你要的目標，我覺得是一個滿大的挑戰，希望你可以成功。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。在這邊作一下宣告，等一下在鄭委員天財質詢結束，休息10分鐘。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是"},{"start":372.313,"end":393.845,"text":"告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分呢請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通的精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力"},{"start":394.929,"end":411.641,"text":"那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你"},{"start":412.361,"end":441.601,"text":"你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈"},{"start":442.621,"end":470.519,"text":"中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去"},{"start":471.516,"end":490.517,"text":"從我的立場來講 這個車一定要趕快開 縱使影子價格0也可以開 我是認為這是最重要的 因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理 所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行不過我也跟委員報告 目前的制度 當時氣候衛生面積因法設下的規定 我沒有辦法決定多少錢"},{"start":491.238,"end":512.915,"text":"如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎"},{"start":516.242,"end":521.387,"text":"跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行"},{"start":522.383,"end":544.928,"text":"那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹 那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考"},{"start":547.308,"end":557.542,"text":"然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議那現在最大的阻力是什麼"},{"start":558.26,"end":586.416,"text":"企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的"},{"start":588.376,"end":606.632,"text":"不是環境部?是更高層?沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":607.294,"end":621.688,"text":"不會。這個是我們決定的。你們決定的嘛。你們人都沒有講。那媒體自己...那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COVA會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具。"},{"start":622.368,"end":641.359,"text":"還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵"},{"start":642.393,"end":655.554,"text":"當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本"},{"start":656.195,"end":659.257,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成"},{"start":676.528,"end":701.606,"text":"那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的"},{"start":704.225,"end":704.566,"text":"王育敏"}]}},{"id":"152779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d57fca773582d49bb88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20173c1fa2322f5407415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:24:06 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10:36:51","影片長度":"00:12:45","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":765,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:36:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:24:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時24分）謝謝主席，我請主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝王委員，你好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，首先先恭喜你，這也是老朋友。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才也有聽到賴惠員委員在詢問，你有沒有拜訪過我們召委還有各委員？昨天我有接到你的電話，因為確實昨天一整天，我們所有的委員都被綁在議場上，我覺得你可能太客氣了啦！事實上好像經濟部長上個禮拜就已經開始陸陸續續在拜訪了，我所瞭解像內政部長也是，當然也許內政部長自己出身立法院，所以我覺得這個部分禮數跟周到，或者說你可能也太客客氣了一些，當然，以後金管會還有很多的事情，大家可以再交換意見。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：主要我還是要特別提到，有關我們當沖的稅要不要繼續調降的問題，因為之前是財政部來備詢，我有特別提到而且我也表達不贊成當沖稅率繼續的調降。為什麼呢？因為前一陣子，主計總處也公布了最新的貧富差距，貧富差距事實上是擴大的非常非常多，到了66.9倍，我們常常在講貧富差距擴大，當然整個社會結構是其中因素之一，但是我們的稅制也是非常關鍵的因素。比如說，我們要怎麼樣來調整改善貧富差距的問題，其實政府的工具有限，其中一個就是稅，可是你今天比如想要增稅或者改變一些稅制，真的是非常非常的困難。好，我們回過頭來，其實如果我們的當沖稅率繼續調降的話，我老實講，唯一的獲利者是政府，第一個，金管會可以繼續的維持整個交易的榮景，我們待會可以看，確實實施當沖稅率調降、對半調降之後，我們的交易確實增加了很多，但是這使得我們整個稅制裡面，越趨於鼓勵資本所得者，而懲罰勞動所得者。所以我個人覺得，這個當沖稅繼續調降，而且你們一提就提5年，我覺得滿誇張的啦，我真的覺得滿誇張！","當然，因為你是昨天才上任，我真的覺得這個事情應該好好討論。財政部對這個事情事實上是有疑慮的，能感受得到，因為對他們來講稅制要公平，要量能課稅，到底我們調降當沖稅有沒有活絡市場？事實上，我們看到已經達成，而且很高啊！非常的活絡啊！我們在2016年的時候，平均的日均量不到一千億，實施之後已經超過一千五百億，到今年1到4月份，日均量五千億，請問一下我們還要再鼓勵什麼？我們還要再活絡什麼？難道現在不夠活絡嗎？就算你要繼續實施，你也應該再看一段時間啊，我覺得這才合理。","我那天就提出來，我大概是非常非常少數做民意代表敢講我不贊成當沖稅率要繼續調降的，因為我知道可能會得罪一些廣大的股民，還有一些在股市裡面的航海王，天天在那邊沖來沖去的。可是我們來看，今天你們活絡市場的目的已經達成了，至於大家獲利的狀況，我們也可以看到2021、2022、2023，2021整個虧損是435億；2022是虧損304億；2023這個是預估值，事實上證交所給我最新的資料total加起來是虧損291億，也將近300億，這是去年的資料。我們再來看，重點是當我們說其實整個是虧損的時候，交易所也給了我一個資料說沒有啊！其實這個大部分是大戶虧損的比較多，一般的散戶賺的比較多。可是如果我們看overall，可以看到整個當沖交易統計，這個是證交所給我，我再稍微把它整理出來，我們獲利的是52.93%、虧損47.07%，獲利233.5億、虧損524.76億，虧損的還是比較多，虧損還是比較多！一半、一半，看起來很公平啊，一半賺、一半賠，但是我看這數據跟賭博有什麼不一樣？就是我拿個錢幣……對啊！骰子還有6面，錢幣不就一個正面頭像、一個非頭像，那這跟賭博有什麼不一樣？所以要繼續調降當沖的稅率，唯一只是繼續維繫股市的榮景，這個榮景也許是上升啦，但是當它是下降趨勢的時候，只會更加深它的跌勢而已，但至少它的交易量是確實存在。我就說，這變成是政府當莊，唯一最賺的就是政府，雖然這個當沖的手續費好像通通都調降，可是因為你殺進殺出、殺進殺出，所以我們這幾年的超收稅收主要都來自股市。我想請問新的金管會主委，對於原來當沖稅率提出要長達5年繼續調降，你的看法是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，如果從損益的角度來看當沖的話，站在金管會立場比較不會從這個角度，它會從整個交易的流動性增加、價格發現，還有市場的效率性來看，確實我們在當沖的時候存在這樣的市場，也確實那些效果是比以前好的。剛剛委員也提到，未來我們的規模已經達到……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果你覺得這麼好，那乾脆永久性的調降囉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這倒也不是，一件事情一定有它的正反兩面……"],["王委員鴻薇：階段性調降就是階段性任務，階段性已經達成了，你們還要給它調降？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然只有階段性任務才會再延長幾年，如果這麼好，你們就全部把它改過來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，因為資本市場本來就有很多面向，我們從資本市場監理的角度看到的是這個面向，剛剛委員你提到，比如說從投資者的獲利，還有鼓勵投機這樣的角度，那當然是有另外一個看法，我們只是要提供意見，誠如剛剛委員提到，我們過去這個公文已經給了財政部，確實是……"],["王委員鴻薇：據我所知，財政部覺得不夠，還要讓你們提供更多的資料……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，所以我們會再來跟財政部協調……"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這一點我是比較支持財政部的立場，因為一個稅制不應該……而且像我們通常是一個階段性，你一下就5年耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我覺得這部分……當然接下來各種面向我們會提供財政部很多的想法，因為最後主政單位是他們，我們會再表達我們的看法。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我已經講出我的立場，我希望你們能夠審慎地去研究。你是新的主委，你可以再做多一點瞭解，不一定原來的黃規，彭就一定要隨，而且稅制應該不要一直在懲罰薪資所得者，然後一直鼓勵資本所得者。關於降稅，事實上它的階段性功能已經達成了，應該適可而止。","此外大家也非常關切，在您還沒有就任之前，在我們的司法法制委員會有作成決議，我不知道你知不知道，有關於保險，你也是專家，保險強制執行要訂出一個參考的規則，這個剛才也有其他委員特別提到，因為幾乎每一位民代，不管是議員或者立委也好，通通都接到相關的陳情跟服務案，事實上有一些還蠻悲慘的，我直接講，真的還有我的選民哀求我能不能幫他保留最後30萬的喪葬費用，講到這樣子，其實我真的很想幫忙啊！所以我覺得當時法院做出這樣的決議其實沒有考慮到整個保險市場裡面的面向非常多，投保的人裡面有一些確實是把他的錢藏在保險裡，但是有一些人的薪資所得或者收入並不高，但是他每一年、每一年慢慢地幫自己或者幫家人投保，可是因為這樣子，他整個保單都解約了。所以我講的就是，我的選民竟然告訴我，能不能幫忙他留一點點喪葬費用，不要讓他全部解約，很心酸……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道在司法法制委員會裡面有一個決議，要求你們要去訂定一個原則……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對。"],["王委員鴻薇：哪些可以排除或者一定金額，現在我看到媒體講是10萬塊，我希望能夠適當地提高，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我想說……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我覺得10萬塊其實很少耶！可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可不可以請局長……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，用一點時間，趕快……"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我們這個禮拜已經開過會了，因為保留的部分是解約金的金額，每一件、每一張啦！但如果是保險金額的話，我們其實訂的比較高，我們人壽保險契約是訂100萬。"],["王委員鴻薇：人壽保險契約就是他即便解約的話，他可以……"],["施局長瓊華：就是保險契約如果在100萬的金額以下，就建議它不予強制執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是以100萬，如果是人壽保險的部分，是不是？"],["施局長瓊華：對、對。"],["王委員鴻薇：100萬就不予強制執行……"],["施局長瓊華：是，我們是這樣建議……"],["王委員鴻薇：讓他保留……這些保戶辛辛苦苦，對於這種並不算是大額的保單，讓他至少能夠保障他的權益。"],["施局長瓊華：是、是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為我時間到了，你們的資料可不可以給我們？"],["施局長瓊華：我們剛開過會……"],["王委員鴻薇：給我們委員一份資料嘛！我們所有的委員都關心。"],["主席：資料請後補。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，好不好？"],["施局長瓊華：我們會儘快來提供。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們已經剛開過會，我想這兩天可以整理給我們，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，我們準備好就馬上給委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：給每一位委員。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝王委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位質詢請郭國文召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.00471875,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"S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不能幫忙"},{"start":652.466,"end":668.364,"text":"把他留一點點喪葬費用在那邊不要讓他全部解約很心酸所以我知道在司法法政委員會裡面他有一個決議然後要求你們要去訂定一個就是一個"},{"start":669.585,"end":682.096,"text":"原則哪些可以排除或者一定金額那我現在看到媒體有講說是有10萬塊那我希望能夠適當的提高好不好因為我覺得10萬塊其實是很少的耶"},{"start":688.141,"end":700.732,"text":"法務委員我們這個禮拜已經開過會了那保留的部分因為那個是解約金的金額每一件每一張啦但是如果是保險金額的話我們其實訂的比較高我們是訂100萬人壽保險契約"},{"start":706.236,"end":733.776,"text":"人壽保險契約即是他即便解約的話他可以就是說有保險契約如果在一百萬的金額以下的話就建議他不予強制執行就是以一百萬如果是人壽保險的部分嘛是不是一百萬就不予強制執行讓他保留一個就是讓這些保護辛辛苦苦他至少能夠這種並不算是大額的保單讓他能夠"},{"start":735.237,"end":735.437,"text":"下一位質詢請"},{"start":764.302,"end":765.461,"text":"郭國文、郭昭薇"}]}},{"id":"152778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d7c6c9a3201cd1c9942979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d201784ce2c86cf23990f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:23:35 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這蔡清祥本身就是這個主張啊蔡清祥前部長講的請問我現在就確認一下蔡清祥部長代表誰講他是法務部的意見對啊 那請問是誰的意見就法務部的意見"},{"start":272.54,"end":298.819,"text":"你有改變嗎我想這個是延續的所以第一件事情我要強調的是我也要跟部長講我肯定法務部啦為什麼法務部在這個所謂的死刑認為核限這件事情上展現了擔當即便大法官在之前在法庭辯論顯露心證法務部還是一樣有這個擔當"},{"start":300.489,"end":328.099,"text":"可是我要講下一個問題法務部另外一個讓我肯定的事是什麼就算死刑要廢除應該是怎麼個廢除法法務部的立場我們法務部本來一種主張就是核限所以廢死的這部分我們有表達我們的立場部長你的立場開始退縮囉請問法務部原來的主張蔡新強部長在我面前直接告訴我他很堅定的告訴我"},{"start":329.571,"end":352.527,"text":"非死也不該由大法官解釋,應該是要受過什麼程序來非死?透過國會啦!不是嗎?透過立法啦!所以你不認同?這是法務部的主張是沒錯,但是憲法法庭的判決的結果令我現在不能夠作為臆測。我跟額南部長真的抱歉齁。"},{"start":354.312,"end":381.973,"text":"你有發現外面對你有一些政治性的一些concern我到現在都沒有質詢這一塊你知道為什麼我還是想從專業部分來跟你對話可是我必須這樣講你到目前的表現遠遠不及蔡清祥他在那邊就斬釘截鐵非常有擔當就說出兩件事第一個他認為死刑核限第二個他認為死刑要廢可以進到立法院來廢"},{"start":383.964,"end":411.135,"text":"這兩個事情我剛剛看你在第二段你就開始閃爍啦請問 廢除死刑是不是應該交給國會來廢除對嘛 你就直接講嘛不是嘛 你現在是法務部部長我也不是問你今天個人我問你這個法務部的立場啊雖然蔡新強部長連他個人的立場他都表達出來了啦包括法務部立場所以我要告訴大家一件事情"},{"start":412.793,"end":441.025,"text":"部長你就一個今天我們法務部的首長死刑的存廢跟法務部有沒有重大攸關有沒有啊 有當然嘛這種情況之下我的看法很簡單啊死刑存廢的爭論辯論這麼久了我也不是說今天主張廢除死刑的說法完全沒有任何的基礎跟道理"},{"start":442.432,"end":463.319,"text":"但是請問現在有多少的民意認為不該廢除實行八成以上這也是蔡新洋部長公開說的所以第一件事情為什麼肯定法務部我現在也肯定你的因為你剛剛也講了因為第一個事情就是不要逆著八成的民意幹"},{"start":466.718,"end":490.496,"text":"不要逆著過去三次大法官解釋死刑核憲的大法官的意見幹回到我們憲政的精神 刑事訴訟 刑事法制 刑法 死刑的存廢就算要廢除死刑 學學苗博雅 去參選立法委員"},{"start":491.823,"end":520.832,"text":"他贏了進到立法院他就有權利來代表主張廢除死刑的人來去把死刑廢除掉學學羅智強我反對廢除死刑我有什麼方式來反對廢除死刑參選立法委員啊選舉最後政見對決我反對廢除死刑我勝出我進到立法院我代表誰進來立法院反對廢除死刑請問部長我代表就是選民不是嗎"},{"start":522.165,"end":537.173,"text":"就單一區的選民阿所以因此在這邊我也是鄭重的呼籲阿即將要做所謂的死刑是否合憲的宣判尤其在今天昨天還發生再度發生隨機砍人案媒體報導阿他直接在被逮的時候說他是計畫好的阿他還說他不想死阿"},{"start":548.621,"end":574.313,"text":"那請問他計畫好就可以讓別人死然後自己也可以不想死現在形式 我們的整個形式法制為什麼讓很多的被害者跟家屬痛心因為都在保護加害者了那另外一個我要問不過這個問題問你可能你又不回答了我剛剛前面講了死刑如果被宣布違憲"},{"start":576.311,"end":601.107,"text":"前面講那個極端的案例喔如果炸彈客炸掉100人也不用判死刑啦這個不需要到部長的層級啦這個一般民眾都可以能夠判斷的啦但是另外一個就部長你就可以講囉如果宣布死刑合憲的話我想請問部長到目前為止我們法務部不執行死刑的理由是什麼"},{"start":604.287,"end":626.29,"text":"現在就是還事先中嗎好啊那如果今天死刑確定是合憲的話法務部要不要執行死刑我們法務部是司法行政的機關我們依法辦理所以你就是要依法辦理是什麼執行死刑啊不是嗎就是我們會依法辦理因為你現在主卻執行死刑就是因為事先嘛"},{"start":627.697,"end":649.067,"text":"所以就兩條路嘛 如果死刑被宣布違憲的話當然法務部你不用執行 我也不會勉強法務部我們也沒有辦法期待法務部今天是違抗大法官的法庭的解釋但是如果大法官認為死刑是合憲的拜託部長記得今天的話"},{"start":650.353,"end":668.332,"text":"目前死刑沒有執行 形同實質廢死是因為你剛剛說在大法官會議解釋當中如果解釋出來合憲 請你回到法律來辦理好不好是 這個我們就依法辦理謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝曾部長 現在休息"}]}},{"id":"152777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d258229c13fc25bf93a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d201755b575a02889fffd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:27:58 - 10:34:44","影片長度":"00:06:46","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":406,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:34:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:27:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（10時28分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家好。我想請副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：副主委，你好。本席是婦產科醫師，也是不孕症醫師，所以剛剛許多委員所提到的少子化問題，相信也是國發會今年會統計且分析的重點項目，是嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的，我們的人口推估是我們每兩年都會做的業務，然後我們會觀測它的變化。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們可以最後再來討論。在去年的報告中，國發會曾告訴我們重點產業中缺人，超過四分之一占比的主要原因，這邊我們看到，行政院在99年10月13日的院會中，依據產業創新條例第十七條，指定國發會為專責機關，負責建立協調整合機制，並且推動產業人才資源發展相關事宜，以強化產業所需人才，提升競爭力，具體的責任就包括針對最新未來產業人才供需進行調查跟推估。這份報告非常多人在看，媒體也會討論。根據前一個年度的辦理成果來發布所謂「重點產業人才欠缺主要原因」，包括彙整了經濟部、交通部、數位部、農委會、金管會等6大部門、19項重點產業人才的調查跟推估，來綜合分析欠缺人才的主要原因。我想請教一下，你們固定會在每年5月發布這份報告內容，如今我們還看不到針對2023年盤點過後的報告內容，請問國人到底什麼時候才看得到這個報告？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：現在在走行政流程，很快就會公布了，已經完成了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，那我們來看一下，這是2022年的數據，所以是2023年公布的檢討報告，我們至少可以看得出來，在這19項重點產業中，特別需要人才供需的產業已經有10項是超過50%的廠商都在反映人才不足。我們看左半塊，左半塊許許多多是我們現在的創新產業，比如說光電、AI、智慧機械、精準健康，都是國家發展的重點項目，這些產業都有50%的廠商反映欠缺人才，最左邊兩項的觀光遊樂及IC設計更是高達88%的廠商反映欠缺人才。","我們再來看右半邊，像是紡織、旅宿也都個別有超過4成的廠商反映欠缺人才，還有投信投顧、證券也有超過3成，副主委可不可以講一下，我們即將分析公布的2023年的報告跟這個2022年的報告會有什麼差異？或是有什麼產業的變化嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，我這邊沒有詳細的數據，可是我聽我們同仁說，其實業別有一些差異，可是的確看起來……"],["陳委員菁徽：缺工的問題是更嚴重嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，就是說……"],["陳委員菁徽：更加嚴重？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是差不多吧，就是人才不足的這些產業別有些差異，可是情況應該大概類似。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們看下一張。有關重點產業缺人的原因，依據你們自己的分析，超過四分之一占比是因為人才的供給數量不足，另外像是流動率過高、素質不符、薪資不具誘因等等。我想請問您，過去馬政府曾經在2015年設置了行政院人口及人才政策會報，再到蔡政府上臺後的2017年，當時林全院長也利用原有的資源來設置這樣的會報，請問現在這個會報還在嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，我們現在的人才及移民政策是透過首長會議討論，這個首長會議之前是由國發會龔主委（現為龔秘書長）來主持的，參與的部會包括經濟部、勞動部、教育部、內政部、僑委會等相關的部會。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以是由您來提供報告跟數據，但是……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是說會定期，這些首長都會定期的來舉行會議，我們目前已經舉行過12次了。"],["陳委員菁徽：很好，但是假使我們這個報告出來還是缺工，表示你們這12次的主管報告，其實沒有做到具體的解方，就跟少子化一樣啊！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，就是……"],["陳委員菁徽：你做的報告所提供的數據都很好，可是沒有解決的方案，因為我們的少子化是一年比一年嚴重。","我們來看最後一張，這個問題剛剛非常非常多的委員關切過，行政院在2018年通過了五年期的「我國少子女化對策計畫」來支持國發會，讓國發會管理考核衛福部、教育部能更稱心，後來到了2021年，決定再把這個專案延長到 2024年。我想請問副主委，您覺得你們2024年以前的少子女化對策有具體的做出一些幫助嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為少子女化對策所涉及的部會非常的多，之前是林萬億政務委員在主持的，基本上這個計畫是持續在滾動調整，這個計畫到2024年屆期的時候，也一定會有新的計畫來做啟動。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們在2024年以後，會有2025年的我國少子女化對策計畫的2.0版本，是嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：會用什麼樣的名稱我不曉得，可是絕對會持續的推動。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我們也很期待看到你們有提出怎麼樣的因應對策。謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，謝謝。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲代）：請邱議瑩召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","謝衣鳯","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","張啓楷","林月琴","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","張雅琳","郭昱晴","范雲","王正旭","吳沛憶","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","鄭正鈐","劉建國","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","莊瑞雄","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","林淑芬","陳超明","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員羅美玲等 20 人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」\n案；二、本院委員王定宇等 16 人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.69034375,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.91784375,"end":31.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.418468750000002,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.67096875,"end":35.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.32471875,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.34159375,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.252843750000004,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.416593750000004,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.59784375,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.479093750000004,"end":57.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.98784375,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.072218750000005,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.26346875,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.31659375000001,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.52971875,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.84096875,"end":199.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.08846875,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.61909375000002,"end":205.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.04096875000002,"end":225.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.86909375000002,"end":228.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.53534375,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.95284375000003,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.42534375000002,"end":230.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.77096875,"end":233.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.34471875000003,"end":268.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.62596875,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.50846875,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.02721875000003,"end":294.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.93846875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":298.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.89596875,"end":297.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.02221875000004,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.97034375000004,"end":317.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.36096875000004,"end":326.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.75221875,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.44784375,"end":351.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.44846875,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.03784375000004,"end":361.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.86471875,"end":361.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.59034375000005,"end":371.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.12471875,"end":373.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.18346875000003,"end":384.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.84846875000005,"end":392.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.88221875000005,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.03721875,"end":398.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.97284375000004,"end":402.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.79534375000003,"end":401.35221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.396,"end":35.162,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員大家好。想請副主委。來,請高副主委。委員早。副主委你好。本席是婦產科醫師,也是博運政醫師。所以剛剛許多委員所提到的少子化的問題,相信也是國發會今年會統計而且分析的重點項目,是嗎?"},{"start":37.346,"end":41.867,"text":"在去年的報告國發會告訴我們說重點的產業中缺人原因超過四分之一佔比主要原因這邊我們看到說不管對於這個"},{"start":63.069,"end":66.052,"text":"行政院在99年10月13號的院會依據《產業創新條例》第十七條指定國發會是專責機關負責建立協調整合機制並且推動產業人才的資源發展相關事宜強化產業所需人才提升競爭力"},{"start":83.346,"end":104.689,"text":"﹗具體的責任就包括針對最近、最新未來產業人才供需進行調查跟推估。這份報告也非常多人在看,媒體也會討論。那根據前一個年度的辦理成果來發布所謂的重點產業人才欠缺主要原因,包括會診這個經濟部啦、交通部、數位部。"},{"start":105.67,"end":124.369,"text":"農委會、經管會六大部門十九項重點產業人才調查跟推估來綜合分析欠缺人才的主要原因。我想請教一下我們固定會在每年的五月發布這份內容。如今我們還看不到針對2023年盤點過後的報告內容。請問這個報告到底什麼時候國人才看得到?"},{"start":129.834,"end":139.122,"text":"現在走行政流程很快就會公布了已經完成了對是那我們來看一下這是2022年所以是2023年的檢討報告我們至少會看出來說這19項重點的產業呢特別需要人才供需產業已經有10項是超過50%的廠商都在反映說人才不足我們看左半塊"},{"start":156.536,"end":182.49,"text":"左半塊許許多多是我們現在的創新產業比如說光電、AI、智慧機械、精準健康都是重點的國家發展項目這些都有50%的廠商反應欠缺人才最左邊兩項觀光還有IC更是高達88%的廠商反應欠缺人才還有我們來看右半邊像是紡織、旅宿"},{"start":185.051,"end":185.091,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":206.118,"end":231.183,"text":"對,那跟委員報告,我這邊沒有詳細的這個,可是我聽我們同仁說,其實業別有一些差異,可是的確他看起來...那缺工的問題是更嚴重嗎?對,就是說...是更加嚴重?應該是差不多吧,差不多就是人才不足的這些,產業別有些差異,可是情況應該大概類似。好,我們看下一張。"},{"start":234.257,"end":248.788,"text":"這個重點產業缺人的原因你們自己分析的原因超過四分之一佔比是因為人才的供給數量不足另外像是流動率過高素質不符薪資不具誘因等等等等"},{"start":249.508,"end":249.628,"text":"請問現在這個匯報還在嗎?"},{"start":269.599,"end":269.659,"text":"吳美芬議員"},{"start":299.138,"end":326.544,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":330.243,"end":347.736,"text":"這個剛剛非常非常多的委員關切過我們行政院在2018年通過了五年期的我國小子女化對策計畫支持國發會讓國發會可以管理考核衛福部、教育部來更秤薪後來到了2021年決定再把這個專案延長到2024年"},{"start":352.506,"end":371.381,"text":"佛主委,您覺得我們過去2024年以前你們的這樣少子女化的對策有具體的做出一些幫助嗎?就是目前那個少子女化對策因為涉及的不會非常的多所以現在其實是之前的林萬一前政委員在"},{"start":372.202,"end":372.442,"text":"﹚陳菁徽﹚"},{"start":401.869,"end":402.381,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"152776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9de052e585dc333f36c1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d20173740091e7a7e3d1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:19:49 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二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":492,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:28:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:19:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時19分）謝謝主席。麻煩請內政部董次長、文化部專委紀佳伶以及法務部參事廖江憲。"],["主席：請董次長、文化部次長。"],["許委員宇甄：是文化部專委紀佳伶。"],["主席：更正：文化部專委。"],["許委員宇甄：還有法務部參事廖江憲。"],["主席：請法務部參事。"],["許委員宇甄：次長好，我想剛才剛好有委員提到藐視國會罪，問你早餐吃什麼？我想藐視國會罪，大家都知道，這是公務人員在立法院聽證或受質詢的時候，就其所知道的重要關係事項為虛偽陳述時，才有可能被處罰。請問一下，吃早餐有可能會是重要的關係事項嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們尊重大院的權責。"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼要用這種誤導民眾的方式讓大家覺得藐視國會罪，好像是吃個早餐講錯了或是記錯了，就會變成藐視國會？我覺得這個要誤導民眾，事實上是非常不需要的，我們應該回歸藐視國會到底是什麼樣的重要關係事項來討論，如果因為吃早餐講錯了，而被判藐視國會罪的話，這種國會也可以廢掉了。另外，我想請教一下次長，昨天在中捷發生了隨機砍人案，也是在北捷隨機砍人案十週年的當天，因為十年前發生這樣子的北捷隨機殺人案的時候，當時因為捷運警力不足的關係，內政部就有說針對這個部分要來做一個檢討，請問一下這十年來，有做了什麼樣的改善？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員垂詢，我是不是請警政署的同仁來做回應？"],["許委員宇甄：好。"],["林副局長信雄：委員好。針對捷運車廂的部分，在這幾年我們持續在加強員警的教育訓練，車廂如果發生類似這種案件的時候，我們同仁可以如何去應變跟即時處理。另外，在平常勤務的部分，除了像鐵路警察局有護車隊以外，在其他的捷運處所或高鐵的處所，我們相關的重要站所都會有同仁定時到車廂去做巡邏。"],["許委員宇甄：現在的問題是，政府在強力推動TPASS，希望大家多利用捷運系統，但是昨天發生這樣的事情之後，我們發覺現在搭乘大眾捷運交通的人非常地多，但是遇到這樣的事情，像昨天是在中部地區，現在我們的TPASS可能還串聯各個不同的生活圈，所以人力相對上就更為重要。在這個部分，假如跨越不同的縣市，而且事權不統一的話，到時候可能會互相推諉，到底各自的權限是什麼？所以我覺得內政部是不是應該考慮成立一個TPASS的警察隊？專門管理大眾捷運系統的乘客安全問題，才能讓民眾的搭乘更為安心。"],["林副局長信雄：是，跟委員報告，關於跨越縣市的部分，像在雙北，它本身是由臺北市政府警察局的捷運警察隊來負責相關捷運的部分。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我知道。"],["林副局長信雄：像機捷的部分，它跨越臺北、新北到桃園，它是由桃園的捷運警察隊來負責全線，所以針對跨域性的部分，我們已經有指定一個專責的捷運警察隊去負責整個捷運運行的部分。當然，他們也跟在地的警察局有相關的支援協定，如果在各個站體有……"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分，本席的意思就是希望你們能夠把事權統一，我們當然不希望發生事情，但發生的時候，一定要馬上去保障我們乘客的安全，才能讓大家放心地搭乘交通捷運系統。"],["林副局長信雄：是，我們會不斷精進，謝謝委員。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，想請教一下，針對土地法第十四條的規定，名勝古蹟土地不得為私有，現在要修法讓行政法人跟公營事業單位可以登記名勝古蹟的土地，行政法人和公營事業單位是由政府出資捐助成立，或者是直接掌控。本席想請問這兩個機構算不算私有？就法律體例來看，修正這一條合適嗎？請法務部廖參事說明。"],["廖參事江憲：委員好。依照土地法的規定，它所謂的公有土地指的是國有，還有直轄市、縣（市）跟鄉（鎮、市），就是歸地方自治團體所有，行政法人跟公營的國營事業登記的土地，並不屬於土地法所列的公有土地，所以我想它這樣的一個規範，有跟公有土地做差異性的規範。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以修正這一條合適嗎？"],["廖參事江憲：政策的部分，我還是尊重主管機關這邊，我是說法制上它不屬於公有的土地，所以它的制定是有它差異化的價值。"],["許委員宇甄：好，針對這個部分的話，請教次長，因為名勝古蹟的土地不得為私有，但是在我們的文資法第二條有規定，文化資產的保存、維護、宣揚跟權利的移轉，是依本法之規定，但是因為土地法是歸內政部，文資法是歸文化部，那請問一下，針對名勝古蹟權利的移轉，到底要依照哪一個法令辦理？"],["董次長建宏：針對名勝古蹟相關法的權益，我們基本上是基於法人及國營事業為公共事務所成立的，為國家所掌控，所以在土地上的使用，基本上還是歸國家所有，但是古蹟最終的管理權跟使用權是依文資法來處理，我們法令上是很明確的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以以這個來說的話，土地的部分是內政部，然後法律的部分是文化部這邊來處理，是嗎？因為我覺得這個部分，針對這一條，在修正方面我覺得可能要特別謹慎一點，為什麼呢？因為你看我們最近發生的，不管是陽明交通大學想要把竹北區原來六張犁聚落的客庄傳統建築群改為商辦大樓；另外，臺北科技大學也希望能夠把原來的建國啤酒廠開發成其他的用途、商業用途，請問一下，你們還會認為行政法人比較會保存、維護古蹟嗎？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員垂詢，委員所提醒的我們會注意，也跟委員報告，古蹟及名勝等相關的重要據點，依文化資產保護法，會由文化部做最終的裁決，相關的文化資產或者古蹟不得任意破壞，也是由文化部在文資法裡面明定，我們一切都要遵守法令的規範，即使是行政法人或國營事業也不得違背文資法。"],["許委員宇甄：對，就是剛剛我提到的這兩個，不管是北科大或者是陽明交大這個，說實在的，到最後客委會也只能說希望他們不要這樣處理，而沒有任何的法源依據，可是事實上行政法人就是沒有辦法做到這個，目前看起來沒有做到這個比較能夠保障我們維護的古蹟，或者是保存我們維護的古蹟，這個部分再請內政部要特別去審慎地考慮，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。下一位請徐欣瑩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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- 10:19:42","影片長度":"00:08:18","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":498,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:19:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:11:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":372,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時11分）謝謝主席，有請內政部次長。"],["主席：好，請我們次長。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長早安。不用擔心，我不會問你早餐吃什麼，我想國會議員如果用這種私事要來講什麼藐視國會，社會大眾也絕對不會接受，這個在內部形成調查小組的時候，也絕對不會成立，我想這基本上是屬於常識，所以我們還是不要浪費時間再去扯這些東西。","今天，我們討論了不動產估價師修法、土地法修法一些相關法條的修正，對於我們這些立法院好同事提出來的修法意見，本席原則上都同意，希望透過下午法條協商討論的過程，能夠做一個更清楚的說明。","我們常常透過一些法律的修正，去大概瞭解一些公共政策背後的背景跟形成的現象，我們現在看到蔡易餘委員提的土地法第七十三條之一，講的是未辦繼承的土地到最後就由國家來做標售，標售的時候，他是基於希望促進土地整合，提高利用的機率，也避免標售最後變成袋地，他沒辦法去使用等等一些現實上的問題，所以他希望擴大通知範圍，我想這修法方向是好的，詳細怎麼來修，這本席都用開放的心態來看。","但是藉這樣子的一個題目，我們去探討繼承登記的問題，我想這件事情是值得內政部跟立法院這邊來好好討論，根據內政部的統計資料顯示，2023年全國未辦理繼承的土地，次長有概念知道大概有多少、多大嗎？"],["董次長建宏：大概有78萬6,357筆，總面積大概有一萬七千多公頃。"],["牛委員煦庭：接近1.8萬公頃，對不對？非常好，資料準備得非常詳細，加起來比金門縣的面積都還要大，對不對？而未辦理繼承的建物面積有65萬坪。"],["董次長建宏：65萬坪。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，65萬坪，那為什麼會這樣？"],["董次長建宏：我想繼承的原因有很多，第一個包括不知道祖先有留下來，再來是繼承人本身有眾多不同的意見，還有它坐落的位置複雜不容易整合，或者是價值太低、沒有辦法充分利用等等這些原因。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實我們在基層上常常碰到的狀況是，第一個人口眾多難以整合，第二個是不知所蹤，人不知道去哪裡了，可能去國外或是怎麼樣，一直久未聯絡，這些都是常常遇到的狀況，就本席的瞭解，你要繼承一塊土地，尤其是在很多子女的情況之下，要先有一個人出來辦繼承登記，讓這塊土地變成所謂的公同共有的情況，然後大家再來做分割，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但即便是這樣，我們已經儘量簡化了，也就是先有一個人來辦，我們讓後續的程序變簡單，但還是有這麼多的土地沒有辦法好好的進入大家理想中的規範，顯示即便這一個人要願意先站出來辦繼承登記，其實客觀上的難度都滿高的，次長，這一個人要來辦繼承登記的時候，他要經歷哪些手續？哪些程序？跑哪幾關？"],["董次長建宏：我是不是請我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒問題。"],["張科長翠恩：基本上那一個人可以幫所有繼承人辦公同共有，不過他還是要報稅，然後報完稅以後要立一些書面文件，再送地政事務所辦登記。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，書面文件對不對？而且你剛剛提到幾個概念，第一個繳錢嘛！這天經地義，沒有問題。第二個準備書表文件，對不對？是哪些書表文件？"],["張科長翠恩：繼承系統表、申請書還有稅單。"],["牛委員煦庭：稅單？"],["張科長翠恩：對，因為他是幫別人辦，所以只要清冊，比較簡單一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，所以要跑戶政機關、稅務機關，然後要把這些資料交給地政機關，對不對？這是本席今天關心的題目，其實這些事情講的簡單，恐怕實際上第一現在做起來滿麻煩的，可能漏了一個資料，再開一個補件的文件，你再拿到這裡去，然後你要在這裡補一個東西，其實這個流程是非常冗長的，中間其實有很多障礙。","實際上很多人覺得本來想說辦一下好了，結果發現它很複雜、很麻煩，他打退堂鼓，間接導致繼承登記辦不下來，然後很多的閒置土地變成了土地利用的不效率，所以我覺得是不是內政部這邊來做一下你內部跨機關的整合？戶政跟地政先做橫向聯繫，都在你們內政部的範圍之內，稅務當然是在財政系統下面，這我們理解，但戶政、地政先做橫向聯繫，哪些資料可以透過書表、文件線上填寫、雲端共享，甚至讓他不用跑臨櫃辦理，是不是可以研擬相關的方案來降低他的負擔？這是第一個，次長願不願意花一點點時間做一下研究？"],["董次長建宏：跟主席、委員報告，謝謝委員垂詢，其實相關的數位雲、數位櫃檯我們已經在做了，也謝謝委員的質詢，讓更多人知道這件事情，我們會大力去宣導。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個是剛剛我們講稅的部分，今天因為相關單位沒有列席，我們就姑且討論一下，現在的狀況是他要辦繼承登記的時候，他要先處理他的應繼分、他的遺產稅款，如果這一塊土地有違規使用什麼的，他要繳罰款、滯納金、利息以及其他等等，對不對？有繳錢的問題，他要把這個問題處理完，他才有辦法拿到同意移轉證明書，才有辦法去辦這樣子的流程，其他人就是註記未繳清遺產稅，不得繕發所有權狀，但這一樣嘛！這個有一定的必要性嘛？"],["董次長建宏：因為土地所有權是私權，私權就有所謂所得稅的問題或者是土地持有稅的問題，我們基於社會公平正義還是需要做的。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我同意，當然稅是要繳的，但是一樣，我希望這一部分也比照戶政跟地政的橫向串聯，看有沒有一個相對簡單的機制來處理，目前有沒有一些研擬的方向？"],["王司長成機：跟委員報告，這個目前已經有在做了，而且只要民眾繳完稅以後，事實上他不用去拿稅單，我們地政機關在現場事實上就可以知道，透過地政跟稅捐單位聯繫，我們就可以勾稽他有沒有繳稅，繳完稅以後，我們就可以讓他辦繼承。所以事實上不需要跑稅捐機關去拿那個單子。"],["牛委員煦庭：有些個案的狀況是這樣，他可能當初要來辦繼承、來辦登記，對不對？但是他沒有想到可能稅款或罰金的程度很高，因為這樣他就打退堂鼓，對不對？因為他繳不起這筆錢，所以他打退堂鼓，一樣回到我們剛剛那個問題，就是最後都沒有人願意先去做第一個辦理登記繼承的人，對不對？那是不是有這個機會，如果他暫時沒有能力或者是不願意繳納的時候，他是不是也有可能先用註記的方式處理，但是不要耽誤辦相關登記的行政流程？我只是請教，我們做一下對話、做一下交換的意見，這樣的方法有沒有機會？還是把這個程序走完，但是因為他沒有繳納遺產稅跟相關的稅款，他當然不能做後續的分割跟處分，這個絕對是鐵律，我完全願意接受，但前面是不是有必要一定要把它處理完，他才能辦理登記繼承這一個行政流程，這件事我覺得可以討論一下。"],["王司長成機：對啊，按照目前的稅法，是一定要先繳清……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，他才有辦法完成這個程序。"],["王司長成機：才有辦法完成所有權的移轉嘛！這個部分我想可以再跟稅法單位來研議看看。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，沒關係，這個題目其實滿複雜的，但是大方向我們是希望簡政便民，先把複雜的行政流程簡化，讓大家的意願提高，你才有辦法從根本……我們鼓勵私有的事應該私有來處理，而不是通通等待政府來標售，其實這是不太對的，但是簡化流程，戶政機關、地政機關的串聯，稅務的部分看有沒有一些調整的方法，如果沒有辦法，也只有把話講清楚了，但無論如何，串聯的工作希望內政部這邊來加強處理，把這個問題解決掉可以嗎？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的垂詢。本部的部分我們會先勾稽，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","下一位請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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主席,這個內政部次長有請。好,請我們次長。謝謝。次長早安,不用擔心,我不會問你早餐吃什麼。我想國會議員如果用這種私事,然後要來講什麼藐視國會,這個社會大眾也絕對不會接受。這個在內部形成調查小組的時候也絕對不會成立。這我想基本上是屬於常識。"},{"start":28.403,"end":43.397,"text":"所以我們還是不要浪費時間就再去扯這些東西今天我們討論了不動產估價師修法土地法修法的一些相關的一些法條的修正大體上對於這些我們立法院好同事提出來的修法意見本期原則上都同意希望透過這個下午的法條討論的過程"},{"start":45.098,"end":74.028,"text":"能夠做一個更清楚的說明。但是常常我們都透過一些法律的修正大概去了解一些公共政策的一些背後的一些背景跟一些形成的一個現象。我們今天在看到這個蔡易餘委員提的土地法七十三條之一講說是未辦繼承的土地到最後就由國家來做標售。那標售的時候希望他是基於希望促進土地整合提高這個利用的機率也避免說這標售之後變成代替他沒辦法去使用等等的一些現實上的問題所以他希望擴大這個通知範圍"},{"start":74.628,"end":96.153,"text":"我想這修法方向是好的。我們詳細的怎麼來修本席都用開放的心態來看。但是藉這樣子的一個題目我們去探討繼承登記的問題。我想這件事情是值得內政部跟立法院這邊好好來做討論。根據內政部的統計資料來顯示,2023年全國未辦理繼承的土地,這個市長大概有個概念,大概多少?"},{"start":97.486,"end":113.374,"text":"我們大概有78萬6357幣那總面積大概有1萬7千多公頃接近1.8萬公頃對不對非常好喔資料準備得非常詳細喔這加起來比金門縣的面積都還要大對不對而未辦理七層的建屋面積喔這65萬坪對65萬坪喔所以說那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":119.161,"end":136.042,"text":"我想這個繼承的原因有很多啦第一個包括過說不知道祖先有留下來的那個然後再來就是說繼承人本身有眾多的不同的意見那還有他的座落的位置複雜然後不容易整合那或者是價值太低那沒有辦法充分利用等等這些原因"},{"start":137.023,"end":151.484,"text":"其實我們常常在基層上常碰到的狀況是其實第一個就是人口眾多難以整合啦是第二個就是不知所蹤嘛人不知道去哪裡了去國外啦或是怎麼樣怎樣一直久於聯絡這些都是常常遇到的狀況"},{"start":152.225,"end":181.394,"text":"那就本席的了解你這個要繼承一塊土地尤其是很多子女的一個情況之下要先有一個人出來辦繼承登記嘛讓這塊土地變成所謂的共同共有的一個情況然後大家再來做分割嘛對不對但是即便是這樣我們已經盡量簡化了你就先有一個人來辦我們在後續的程序變簡單但還是有這麼多的土地沒有辦法好好的進入大家理想中的這樣一個規範顯示即便這一個人要願意先站出來辦繼承登記其實客觀上的難度都蠻高的"},{"start":182.054,"end":210.615,"text":"市長,這一個人要來辦繼承登記的時候他要經歷哪些手續啊?哪些程序?跑哪幾關?沒問題基本上那個一個人可以幫所有繼承辦公同共有不過他就還是要報稅然後報完稅以後要就是立一些書面文件然後再送地政事務所辦登記對,好,書面文件來對不對而且你剛剛提到幾個概念第一個繳錢嘛這天經地義沒有這沒有問題第二個準備書表文件對不對哪些書表文件?"},{"start":213.389,"end":233.06,"text":"對,計程系統表、申請書、然後就是稅單這些。因為他是幫別人辦稅,只要清澈比較簡單一點。所以要跑戶政機關、稅務機關,然後要把這些資料交給地政機關對不對?這是本期今天關心的題目啦。其實這些事情講的簡單,恐怕實際上第一線在做起來蠻麻煩的。"},{"start":234.341,"end":258.163,"text":"錄了一個資料,我開一個補件的文件,你再拿到這裡去,然後你在那邊補一個東西。其實這個流程是非常冗長的,中間其實有很多障礙。那實際上很多人本來說我來辦一下好了,結果發現他很複雜,他很麻煩,他打了退堂鼓。那其實間接就導致了這個計程登記辦不下來,然後很多的閒置土地,變成了土地利用的不效率。"},{"start":258.763,"end":285.055,"text":"所以我覺得是不是內政部這邊來做一下你內部的這個跨部會的一個整合跨機關的一個整合這個戶政跟地政先做橫向聯繫都在你們內政部的範圍之內嘛那稅務當然是財政系統下面這我們理解但戶政、地政先做橫向聯繫哪些資料可以透過書表文件線上填寫雲端共享甚至讓他不用跑林桂辦理是不是可以研擬相關的方案來做這樣子的這個"},{"start":286.295,"end":301.976,"text":"降低他的負擔這第一個這部長又不願意花一點點時間做一下研究跟主席跟委員報告好謝謝委員吹詢其實相關的數位雲數位櫃檯我們現在做了那也謝謝委員的質詢讓更多人知道這件事情我們會大力去宣導"},{"start":303.38,"end":330.367,"text":"第二個是剛剛我們就講稅的部分當然今天因為相關單位沒有來列席當然我們就姑且討論一下就是說現在的狀況就是說我要先按我還先這個我來辦紀念登記的時候我要先處理我的印記分他的遺產稅款嘛他如果這一塊土地有違規使用什麼你要繳罰款、自納金、利息啊以及等等對不對那有繳錢的問題我要把這個問題處理完我才有辦法拿到同意遺傳證明書嘛我才有辦法去辦這樣子一個流程喔那其他人就是註記嘛"},{"start":331.508,"end":339.969,"text":"為繳清遺產稅不得散發所有權狀但這一樣嘛 這個其實 這個我想會有一些 這有 它有一定的必要性嘛 是"},{"start":340.991,"end":362.413,"text":"因為這個土地所有權是私權。私權就有所謂所得稅的問題,或者是土地所有稅的問題。我們基於稍微公平正義還是需要做的。我同意,基本上當然稅是要繳的啦。但是一樣,我希望這一部分也比照戶政跟地政的橫向串聯。看有沒有一個相對簡單的一個機制來處理。目前有沒有一些研擬的方向?"},{"start":363.325,"end":363.345,"text":"蘇貴昌議員"},{"start":385.1,"end":386.201,"text":"則不予審查委員．則不予審查委員"},{"start":405.084,"end":423.294,"text":"同樣回到我們剛剛那個問題就是說大家最後都沒有人願意去先做那個第一個人去辦那個登記計程對不對那是不是有這個機會就是說我如果暫時沒有能力或者是不願意繳納的時候我是不是也有可能用注記的方式先處理但是我不要耽誤相關辦這個登記的行政流程這我只是請教我們做一下對話做一下交換的意見"},{"start":424.995,"end":450.565,"text":"有沒有機會這樣的辦法還是把這個程序走完了但是因為你沒有繳納遺傳稅跟相關的稅款你當然是不能做後續的分割跟處分嘛 對不對這個絕對是鐵律啦 這個我完全願意接受但前面是不是有必要一定要把它處理完你才能辦這個這個登記計程這個行政流程這件事我覺得可以討論一下對啊按照目前的稅法是一定要先繳清這個稅對你才有辦法完成這個程序嘛你才有辦法完成這個所有權的遺傳嘛"},{"start":452.291,"end":458.31,"text":"對,那這個部分我想我們可以再跟那個稅法單位來研議看看啦。"},{"start":458.837,"end":481.927,"text":"好啦沒關係這個題目其實蠻複雜的但是大方向我們是希望簡正辨明嘛讓這個東西可以先把複雜的行政流程簡化讓大家的意願提高你才有辦法從根本嘛我們鼓勵這個私有的事應該私有來處理而不是通通等在政府飆售其實不太對的但是簡化流程護證機關、力證機關的串聯稅務的部分看有沒有一些調整的方法"},{"start":482.307,"end":494.863,"text":"如果沒有辦法那也只要把話講清楚但無論如何串聯的工作希望內政部這邊來加強處理把這個問題解決掉,可以嗎?謝謝委員的諮詢那本部的部分我們會先勾結很棒,謝謝市長好,謝謝我們牛煦庭委員的諮詢,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d6e4f355639c47e456fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d2017ad81c9f73d0fe0115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:20:56 - 10:33:16","影片長度":"00:12:20","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":740,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:33:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:20:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":335,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時21分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。"],["李部長遠：早。"],["陳委員秀寳：首先向部長說：歡迎來到文化部與我們教文委員會的委員們一同為相關的影視音文化、出版業、產業一同努力。請教部長，針對近期臺文館的爭議，這事件從一開始的否認到坦承，其實讓民眾感覺一頭霧水，也質疑臺文館在整個事件中的監督驗收工作是不是沒有做好？媒體報導說，當初廠商還指稱，以為只要P圖就沒事，對此，民眾都覺得非常荒謬！本席請教，臺文館屬於文化部管轄，在整個事件裡臺文館有沒有主動向文化部求助、通報或者請求協助？是臺文館主動向你們上報，還是說你們是看了新聞才知道？"],["李部長遠：這一點我不知道，因為那是我還沒有來之前發生的。"],["李次長靜慧：我們有兩個管道，一方面新聞出來以後，臺文館也有做緊急呈報單，所以文化部才深入瞭解整個案子的始末。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以應該還是看到新聞才知道。這有兩個部分，如果臺文館是被廠商矇騙，我跟民眾一樣要質疑，臺文館對驗收、監督這方面是有瑕疵的。如果臺文館在過程中沒有向文化部上報請求協助，我們也要質疑臺文館單方面聽信廠商的片面之詞，沒有主動查證，一開始就聽廠商的話，還否認，這個不僅有瑕疵，其實是很嚴重的失職。臺文館如果連基本的驗收工作跟查核工作都做不好，民眾會質疑以文化部的專業，以臺文館的專業，竟然發生這樣荒謬的情事，是不是基本的辨識能力有問題？發生這樣的事情，我相信大家也應該從這個事件學到教訓。針對本案，文化部是不是在兩週之內提出檢討報告給本席，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝，接下來跟部長討論。一開始確定是由您接任文化部部長，其實文化界是一片好評，非常的期待。您影視出版的資歷相當豐富，過去教文委員會也針對出版業蕭條提出很多關心跟質詢，業界也希望部長可以升級出版業，能夠多多協助出版業，更希望部長可以帶動臺灣影視的潮流。今天文化部的書面報告裡面有指出，未來會加強扶植童書及繪本，研議創作獎勵金、出版媒合以及推廣相對輔導措施。在這邊要請教部長，針對創作獎勵金的部分，部長初步的構想是什麼？"],["李部長遠：原來我們對於出版本來就有一些獎勵。我個人對於推廣童書、繪本，我覺得市場本身很重要，有人在看這些書，它才有地方可以去。將來我的做法還是跟前面講的一樣，我想找到很多企業贊助這些繪本作家跟童書作家，推廣這些活動，讓很多人覺得讀臺灣自己作家的童書跟臺灣自己作家的繪本是一種很有趣的事情。文化部會研議更多的獎勵辦法，獎勵辦法本身我想是要……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長有這樣的想法，本席也非常支持，預計什麼時候會將這些構想實現？會做怎樣的方案？有沒有時程？"],["李部長遠：其實我們從110年到112年大概已經補助40個案子，獎勵金大概1,100萬，這個部分我們會繼續推動。"],["陳委員秀寳：會不會繼續擴大規模呢？"],["李部長遠：應該會，假如我們編列明年的預算的時候……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長所說的1,100萬是針對所有的出版，還是只有針對童書跟繪本？"],["李部長遠：原創繪本。"],["陳委員秀寳：繪本的部分？"],["李部長遠：我覺得這個費用對臺灣的原創繪本實在太少了一點。在投資上面，我覺得補助裡面，臺灣的文學作品、童書、繪本有點被忽略。繪本非常重要，因為它是一個視覺上的東西，很多國家都把自己的繪本推出去，當做別人認識自己國家的一個方法。尤其是兒童在看繪本，可以影響到兒童對於美術的欣賞、故事的瞭解。這一點我未來應該會在預算的編列還有活動的舉辦加強。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分本席也會支持，其實童書、繪本的獎勵我非常肯定、非常支持，因為讓越小的孩子養成閱讀習慣，更容易成為他生活的日常，而且小時候閱讀的這些印象潛移默化的效果會更好。部長既然有這樣用心，也有這樣的規劃，儘快讓這樣的構想可以實現，然後把期程定出來。以您的資歷跟目前的職位，產業界對你的期待非常高，甚至希望部長是不是可以研擬出出版業十年的政策方向，我們是不是可以朝這個方向努力？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：這是長期的。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：是對整個出版業的規劃、扶植還有獎勵，部長也覺得認同，可以朝這個方向，就是比較長期的、十年的計畫這樣子做？"],["李部長遠：對，我期待一個城市不要有一天變成沒有書店，也沒有電影院，我滿期待我們是永遠有書店、電影院的國家。在我的任內，我會非常主動積極的推動這個。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長，希望可以將這些期望儘快付諸實現。","接下來請文策院一同上台，我要請教關於黑潮計畫這個部分。"],["主席：有請文策院蔡董事長。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，我先請教您，去年我們為了提升臺流的競爭力跟塑造臺流成為世界主流，也配合黑潮計畫等等，中華電信、遠傳及台哥大也宣布跟文策院合作，每個電信業者與文策院合作投入的資金各有30億，協助影視、臺流在世界發光、發熱。這個消息當時傳出的時候非常振奮整個影視界，也讓民眾非常期待有更優質的影視產品，很多位委員包括本席也在委員會關心過。現在想瞭解目前三大電信基金的進度是什麼，你們的進度現在規劃到哪裡。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：好，謝謝委員詢問，跟委員報告一下，三大電信公司跟文策院、國發基金合組影視基金，這三檔基金都如火如荼進行當中。首先，中華電信的基金大概已經在今年2月或3月正式通過他們的董事會，而且據我知道，中華電信為了這個基金已經找好新的辦公室，都裝潢完畢，也開始在外面recruit新的人力。但目前因為文策院需要投資任何一個項目，無論是小到如一部電影，大到如30億的基金，都要通過投審會。目前投審會的時間正在跟國發基金研議當中，當投審會審議完畢通過之後，中華電信的基金就會馬上落地開始營運。","另外，台哥大跟遠傳這兩檔基金，據我們所知，他們目前都已經在準備商業計畫書，應該6月或7月會先通過他們內部的董事會，因為大型上市公司也是要公司治理。通過他們的董事會之後，會馬上送來我們這邊進行國發基金的投資審議委員會。以上跟委員報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以現在進度最快的是中華電信。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒錯，他們目前算是三大電信公司裡面相對最積極的，雖然基金還沒有正式成立，但是中華電信最近已經有別於往年，大概目前已經開始下場投資臺灣影視作品。據我知道基金還沒有成立，他們目前大概已經用自己的錢投了大概8到10部臺灣的影視作品。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以除了跟我們合作的這些方案之外，他們自己本身也投資了……"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：因為中華電信現在已經迫不及待進場，準備大展身手了。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝董事長。文化部跟文策院當初有這樣的消息傳出來，說三大電信基金會幫助臺流的新聞，其實引起非常多熱烈的討論，但目前的情況算卡關嗎？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：不會是卡關，的確文策院過去使用國發基金投資，並沒有投過這麼大筆金額的案子，坦白講，光以中華電信這個案子，總基金大概30億，文策院並不是最大的股東，我們大概會出大概3成左右，即便3成也有9億，對國發基金來講，它也需要多一點時間瞭解整個準備的時間是否恰當，所以不算卡關，而是它需要更多時間做同步的訊息。"],["陳委員秀寳：有沒有跟國發基金溝通過，說大概還要需要多久的時間才能儘快投入？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：我們最近已經跟國發基金新的執秘聯繫過，我想他們最近也會有新的主委上任，我們會再跟部長一起去拜訪，尋求一個更積極的時間。"],["陳委員秀寳：三個月內會有新的進度嗎？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：我相信會有。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果三個月之內有新的進度，請向本席說明。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：第一時間跟委員報告。謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。我再耽擱一點點時間，我再請教部長。今年的坎城影展，媒體有說飄出了濃濃的臺灣味，有幾部獲得文策院TICP投資的影片也同樣在坎城影展播映，讓人覺得很感動也很振奮。但是近期文策院發表TICP2.0的政策，對於改變的部分業界有不同的意見，是不是有誤解，還是有落差，是不是解釋一下？"],["李部長遠：這個我聽說了，但還是請蔡董事長來講一下好了。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：這個我來回答。任何一個政策其實我們都尋求最大公約數的支持，坦白說，TICP1.0或2.0都有少數業者有不同的看法，但我們尋求大家的共識，無論透過公開說明會或私下拜訪，我們還是一一說明。這次TICP2.0跟1.0，我們所支持的作品在坎城一共有6部獲得入圍，各式各樣的影展有「一種注目」，也有沉浸式體驗，其實我們到了坎城（我個人也有去）也跟國際合製的一些製作人，包含日本、丹麥和法國當地製作人說明所謂的TICP2.0是希望幫助大家取得更大型的資金，只是它必須更公開透明地組成投資審議委員會來接受外面的公評，這大概就是1.0跟2.0最大的差別，目前大家大致都可以理解。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實我們提出國際合作是希望讓臺灣有更寬廣的舞台，但是有關這個投資策略的隨時檢討，我們做改進是希望能夠更完善、更契合，但是溝通和討論非常重要，不要讓國際間有誤會，是不是我們臺灣扶植影視的態度有所改變，或者是我們有說的跟做的不一樣的落差。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：完全理解。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以本席還是要強調，溝通和討論是非常重要的。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：是！"],["陳委員秀寳：好，以上。謝謝。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：謝謝委員提醒。謝謝。"],["主席：請部長回座。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：接下來請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.861593750000000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新聞才知道這點我不知道因為那是我還沒有來之前發生的"},{"start":75.555,"end":100.2,"text":"報告委員我們是有兩個管道啦一方面新聞出來了以後那臺文館也有做一個緊急呈報單所以文化部才深入去了解這整個案子是應該還是就是說看到新聞才知道齁那如果說其實臺文這個有兩個部分啦如果說臺文館是被廠商蒙騙那這邊其實我跟民眾一樣也要質疑說臺文館的對驗收監督的這個方面是有瑕疵的"},{"start":100.6,"end":107.022,"text":"但如果說台灣館他在過程中沒有向文化部這邊上報請求協助那這邊其實也要質疑說台灣館官方方面領單方面的聽信廠商的片面支持也沒有主動去查證一開始就聽廠商的話還否認所以說這個不僅是有瑕疵其實很嚴重的失職喔"},{"start":121.425,"end":142.551,"text":"﹚台文館基本驗收工作及查核工作都做不好﹚民眾會質疑說﹚以我們文化部的專業﹚以台文館的專業﹚竟然發生這樣子荒謬的情勢﹚是不是基本辨識能力有問題﹚所以發生這樣的事情﹚我相信說大家也應該從這個事件裏面有學到教訓﹚我希望說針對本案﹚文化部是不是兩週之內﹚你們一個檢討報告給本席好嗎﹚"},{"start":144.031,"end":147.875,"text":"好沒有問題謝謝委員好謝謝好那接下來這邊跟部長您討論一開始確定是由您來接任文化部的部長時期文化界是一片好評非常的期待那您的影視出版的資歷相當的豐富過去教育委員會也針對出版業這個蕭條提出很多的關心跟質詢"},{"start":165.932,"end":173.678,"text":"業者：業界也希望說部長您可以升級出版業：對出版業能夠多多的協助：更希望說部長您可以帶動臺灣影視的潮流那在今天文化部的書面報告裡面有指出未來會加強扶植童書及繪本"},{"start":184.026,"end":192.669,"text":"並演繹創作獎勵金、出版媒合以及推廣相關的輔導措施。在這邊要請教部長,針對創作獎勵金的部份部長您初步的構想是什麼?原來我們對於出版本來就有一些獎勵的部份我個人對於推廣童書也好、繪本也好,我覺得"},{"start":211.081,"end":235.415,"text":"市場本身很重要就是有人在看這些書他才有地方可以去那我將來我的做法會是還是跟前面講一樣我想找到很多企業來贊助這些繪本作家跟童書作家然後推廣這些活動讓很多人覺得讀台灣的童書台灣自己作家童書跟台灣自己作家的繪本那個是一種"},{"start":236.638,"end":243.199,"text":"很有趣的事情那我們文化部會研擬更多的獎勵辦法這個獎勵辦法本身我想是要那部長您有這樣的想法本席也非常的支持那預計什麼時候會將這些構想來實現有沒有會做一個怎樣的方案有沒有怎樣的時程其實我們從110年到112年已經大概補助了40個案子嘛然後獎勵已經大概1100萬這個部分"},{"start":265.68,"end":290.025,"text":"我想我們會繼續推動。會不會繼續擴大規模呢?應該會。假如我們要編列明年的預算的時候。因為部長您所說的這個1100萬嗎?是針對所有的出版還是只有針對通書跟繪本?繪本,原創繪本。繪本的部分。我覺得這個費用對於台灣的原創繪本實在太少了一點。在投資上面我覺得補助裡面台灣的這個文學作品也好"},{"start":291.187,"end":316.721,"text":"同書也好 繪本也好 有點被忽略因為繪本是非常重要因為它是一個視覺上的東西然後很多國家都把自己的繪本當作是一個推出去讓別人認識自己國家的一個方法尤其是兒童在看繪本可以影響到兒童對於美術的欣賞對於故事的了解所以這一點會是我未來應該是在預算上的編列還有在活動上的舉辦我會加強"},{"start":318.838,"end":327.201,"text":"這個部分本席也會支持其實同事繪本的獎勵我非常的肯定非常支持越小的孩子對於閱讀習慣的養成更容易成為他生活的日常而且小時候閱讀的這些印象很容易就是說潛移默化的效果會更好"},{"start":334.904,"end":357.771,"text":"所以說我很希望說部長既然你有這樣的用心也有這樣子的規劃的話盡快的讓這樣的構想可以實現然後我們把期程定出來而且以您的資歷跟您目前的職位產業界其實對您的期待非常的高甚至希望說部長您是不是可以研擬出一個10年的一個出版業的政策方向我們是不是可以朝這個方向來努力可以啊"},{"start":359.13,"end":361.993,"text":"對我期待一個城市不要有一天變得沒有書店也沒有電影院我蠻期待我們是一個永遠有書店有電影院的一個國家"},{"start":382.071,"end":396.861,"text":"那麼在我的任內我想我會主動非常積極的推動這個謝謝部長希望可以將這些期望盡快的付諸實現那接下來我們請文策院一同我要請教關於我們這個黑潮計畫這個部分有請文策院蔡董事長"},{"start":415.499,"end":428.226,"text":"部長我先請教您去年我們為了提升台流的競爭力跟塑造台流成為世界主流也配合這個黑潮計劃等等那中華電信遠傳體台客大也宣布跟文策院這邊來合作當每個電信將與文策院合作來投入的資金各有30億來助影視台流在世界發光發熱"},{"start":439.011,"end":439.891,"text":"目前三大電信基金的進度是什麼?"},{"start":439.891,"end":440.451,"text":"你們的進度現在規劃到哪裡?"},{"start":459.977,"end":477.5,"text":"好,謝謝委員詢問,那個跟委員報告一下三大電信公司跟文策院國發基金合作影視基金這三檔基金都如火如荼在進行當中首先中華電信的基金其實已經在大概今年的二月或三月已經正式通過了中華電信他們的董事會"},{"start":478.281,"end":494.868,"text":"所以而且據我知道中華電信其實為了這個基金已經找好新的辦公室都裝好完畢了也開始到外面re-go新的人力但目前就是因為文策院需要投資任何一個項目無論是小道如一部電影大道如30億基金都要通過投審會"},{"start":495.808,"end":523.641,"text":"那目前投審會的時間正在跟國發基金這邊研擬當中當投審會通過審議完畢之後中華電信的基金就會馬上落地開始營運那另外臺哥大跟遠傳這兩檔基金據我們所知他們目前已經都在準備商業計畫書應該是6月或7月會先通過他們內部董事會因為大型上市公司也是要公司治理那通過他們董事會之後會馬上送來我們這邊進行國發基金的投資審議委員會以上跟委員報告"},{"start":524.261,"end":547.512,"text":"所以現在進度最快的是中華電信沒錯,他們也目前算是三大電信公司裡面相對最積極那目前雖然基金還沒有正式成立但中華電信最近已經有別於往年了他們大概目前已經開始下場投資台灣影視作品據我知道基金還沒有成立他們目前大概用自己的錢已經大概投了大概8到10部台灣的影視作品"},{"start":548.593,"end":571.941,"text":"所以除了跟我們這邊合作的這些方案之外他們自己也本身也投資了因為台灣電信現在已經迫不及待進場準備大展身手了謝謝董事長其實文化部跟文策院當初我們有這樣的消息傳出來說三大電信基金會助台流這個新聞其實引起了非常多的熱烈的討論那在現在目前的情況算卡關嗎"},{"start":573.393,"end":573.413,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":600.595,"end":626.237,"text":"那有沒有跟國發基金這邊來溝通過說大概還要需要多久的時間才能盡快的投入我們在最近已經跟國發基金這邊新的那個執密有聯繫過我想他們最近也會有新的主委上任我們會再去拜訪跟部長一起再去拜訪然後尋求一個更積極的時間三個月內會有新的進度嗎我相信會有會齁那如果三個月之內有新的進度請向本席這邊來說明謝謝"},{"start":627.978,"end":631.421,"text":"好,那我再耽擱一點點時間喔我再請教我們部長喔今年的坎城影展呢媒體也說飄出了濃濃的台灣味那有幾部獲得文策院TSCP投資的這個影片也同樣在坎城影展播映讓你覺得很感動也很振奮喔但是近期呢文策院發表TSCP2.0的這個政策的部分改變的部分業界有不同的意見是不是有誤解還是有落差這邊是解釋一下"},{"start":657.537,"end":673.879,"text":"這個我聽說了但是你講一下好了這個我來回答齁任何一個政策其實我們都尋求最大公約數的支持那坦白說TICB1.0或2.0都有少數業者有不同看法但我們尋求大家的共識無論通過公開說明或是私下拜訪我們還是一一說明"},{"start":674.019,"end":697.858,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":697.938,"end":709.605,"text":"的更大型的資金只是他必須要更公開透明的組成投資審議委員會來接受外面的公平這大概就是1.0跟2.0最大的差別目前大致大家都可以理解"},{"start":710.393,"end":733.946,"text":"其實我們前進國際的合作是希望讓台灣有更寬廣的舞台但是這個投資策略的這個隨時檢討我們做改進是希望說能夠更完善更契合但是溝通跟討論是非常的重要不要讓就是國際間有誤會是不是我們台灣這個福祉影視的態度有改變或者說我們是說的跟做的是不一樣的這個落差所以這邊還是要強調說溝通跟討論是非常重要的好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3eb22db9522be56e42979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d2017ff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:11:40 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10:23:08","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":688,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-24"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:23:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:11:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":834,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時11分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長早，恭喜你，賴清德的大將。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：當時在……是不是傳聞啦，本席還沒有查證清楚，賴清德在臺南有一個類似街頭的車輛糾紛，當時有一些衝突，然後承辦檢察官是哪一位？"],["鄭部長銘謙：承辦是我本人。"],["傅委員崐萁：你本人嘛，那當時是打架還是被打？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他是被打。"],["傅委員崐萁：被打？情況有多嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個滿嚴重的，事實上那是一個，就是有三部機車逆向行駛，差一點……"],["傅委員崐萁：差一點撞到賴清德？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那時候應該是賴委員嘛，那時候他有跟他們講說你們這個是逆向，結果……"],["傅委員崐萁：他有沒有罵三字經？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不可能罵三字經，他修養那麼好，不可能……"],["傅委員崐萁：修養很好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，他是一個很嚴肅的立法委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：我認識賴清德很久，不像你講的修養這麼好耶，我們跟他同事很久了，他非常自負。那最後你是以重傷害來究責，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：重傷害未遂。"],["傅委員崐萁：殺人未遂？重傷害未遂？"],["鄭部長銘謙：重傷。"],["傅委員崐萁：重傷未遂，求刑多少？"],["鄭部長銘謙：求刑四年多。"],["傅委員崐萁：求刑四年多。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為那個眼睛受傷滿嚴重的。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為我現在看他都還是很帥，謝謝，我想部長你的發跡過程這樣我們就瞭解了。","另外就是我們先瞭解一下，因為您接任部長，我們來看一下司法的可信度，山水民調在去年做民眾對所謂司法改革的滿意度調查，現在發現對於司法改革，民進黨這四年來的司法改革，這個數字還不錯啦，滿意度有三成，哇，這個對民進黨執政來講，民進黨執政裡面有30%算是高滿意度，48.1%不滿意。再過來，對於是否公正，大概認為公正的有34.9%，不公正的有55.5%，請問一下部長，對這個數字有什麼感想沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對這個數據的取樣，我是不清楚啦。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年公布到現在已經吵了一段時間了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚，但我想任何的數據都是一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：這是民間司改所提出來的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這是一個可以參考的啦。"],["傅委員崐萁：可以參考？既然要參考的話，就應該要提升人民對司法的信任度嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們對司改的努力，這個是永不停歇啦。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，再看下一張，這個是比較嚴重的，調查的問題是「檢察官是否受政治力影響」？八成五的民眾認為檢察官辦案的時候會受到政治力的影響，這個數字就是本席特別對民進黨執政，光是最近這4年，從112年往前推算4年，民眾有85%認為檢察官在辦案過程中受到政治力的高度干擾；認為不會的，包括可能不會與一定不會，一定不會的只有1趴多啦，全國民眾認為一定不會的只有1趴多，可能不會跟一定不會的加起來總共9趴。這個資料就擺在那裡，對於這樣的數據結果，我想就是「有則改之，無則加勉」啦！這個民調不是立法院做的，也不是在野黨做的，這是很清楚公布在那裡的資料。部長，我覺得接下來要做的是要如何讓人民感受到檢察官是確實公正辦案，有沒有信心？"],["鄭部長銘謙：摘奸發伏是檢察官的職責，公正辦案也是，我想這部分……"],["傅委員崐萁：反正520就職了，部長，接著我們就要看您的成績單了，因為這個民調每一年都會做。另外要請問部長，檢察事務官為什麼到現在還補不齊啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察事務官我們現在一直在補啊，像我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：還有多少缺額？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察事務官的缺額……"],["傅委員崐萁：六百多？"],["鄭部長銘謙：缺額一百多。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在補到剩一百多？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，一百多。"],["傅委員崐萁：多少？請次長說明，黃次長是比較專業啦！"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們現在檢事官的員額大概832個人，目前大概有六百十幾個現額，缺額還有一百多人，還在招考中。"],["傅委員崐萁：這一百多人要不要把他補滿？"],["黃次長謀信：像我們明年就招考120個。"],["傅委員崐萁：檢察事務官儘快補足，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：檢察事務官補足以後，對於整個偵查品質還不足的話，我們再來討論檢察官助理的問題，我們一步一步來做，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，還是請支持它，這並行不悖啦，檢察官助理跟檢察事務官……"],["傅委員崐萁：並行不悖喔？"],["黃次長謀信：並行不悖，它是並行不悖的。"],["傅委員崐萁：你們這樣一提出來，司法院也馬上趁機過水說他們也要法官助理啊，法官怎麼會要助理，本席實在聽不懂耶。"],["黃次長謀信：現在已經有法官助理了。"],["傅委員崐萁：秉持聽訟中立，怎麼會現在變成法官要來當檢察官的助理啊！幫檢察官來補這個資料的不足，代為蒐證。"],["黃次長謀信：委員，你講檢察官助理嗎？"],["傅委員崐萁：法官是聽訟，要秉持公正中立的原則，而不是自己把自己來當檢察官的助理，所以這個案子一提出來，司法院馬上就會要求他們也要法官助理，所以本席……"],["黃次長謀信：他們現在已經有法官助理了。"],["傅委員崐萁：他們還要擴編……"],["鄭部長銘謙：本來就有法官助理了。"],["傅委員崐萁：他們還要擴編，要擴編員額，已經到立法院來要名額了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個檢察官助理是有效可以減少檢察官的一個工作負擔，我想這是一個整體的考量，這一點請委員能夠支持。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席並沒有反對，現在是說先把事務官補齊嘛，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，臺中捷運上又發生隨機殺人事件，請教一下，對於廢死，您的看法如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想法務部的立場都是……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，部長，您的立場，不是法務部的立場。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在這邊不能談我個人的立場，我只能談……"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼不能談個人立場？部長是政務官……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我只能談我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：政務官對於政策要講清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法務部的立場，那個立場，我想我們都是在憲法法庭……"],["傅委員崐萁：釋憲是另外一件事情嘛！一個政務官要有政務官的風骨嘛！你身為部長，你當了政務官當然要有你的態度嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法務部認為這個就是合憲，死刑本來就是合憲，我既然當法務部長，就是要有這個政策……"],["傅委員崐萁：對嘛！腰桿要挺直嘛！未來你們下面的檢察官，治安不好，都跟部長的態度有關係嘛，對不對？如果你們去支持廢死，還是承奉上意，以後不得了啊，案子永遠辦不完啊，而且越來越兇，社會治安怎麼辦？司法是社會最後一道正義的防線嘛，當然你們檢察官的腰桿要挺直嘛！部長是承擔所有的政治責任，你要讓下面所有的檢察官能夠有所適從嘛！我們都支持法務部，但你們的腰桿自己要挺直啊！","另外，我延續一下剛剛謝龍介委員所講的，賴清德總統前天的宣示提到黑金、槍、毒，獨獨漏掉官商勾結、貪贓枉法，本席對於臺南這個88槍，然後再10槍在當街槍殺，就是為了綠能相關的不法利益，我希望臺南啊，您出身自臺南，擔任過檢察長，先把臺南的問題處理得乾淨一點，有沒有信心？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就是……"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有信心？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會全力……"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有信心？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會全力來做。"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有信心嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們當然要全力來做，這樣就會建立民眾對我們的一個信任。"],["傅委員崐萁：好。最後再請教一下，林姿妙縣長被起訴，那時候您在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：起訴那時候我已經離開廉政署了。"],["傅委員崐萁：喔，所以資料蒐集的時候有參與嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，偵辦的時候我有在。"],["傅委員崐萁：偵辦的時候你有參與，那高虹安市長的案子呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：高虹安是我在北檢檢察長的時候起訴的。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為大家都不聽柯建銘的，沒有起訴，所以最後您到了北檢就起訴了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該不是這樣，因為證據蒐證齊全……"],["傅委員崐萁：應該不是？沒有關係，你有回答就好了。那楊文科縣長呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：楊文科的部分我沒有參與過……"],["傅委員崐萁：這件沒有參與？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：其他有參與？好。","我們要再一次表達，司法如同皇后的貞操，如果我們檢察官、如果我們司法要揣摩上意來辦案，我想是沒有辦法得到人民的支持跟掌聲。在這裡也要請部長，您來的過程當中，你跟前幾任的部長相比，在資歷上可能沒有像他們這麼完備，尤其在北檢短短一年就接任部長，這是屬於天賦異稟級的，部長未來的成績大家都在看，所以我們希望部長能夠摒棄政治的干擾。本席在這裡預報一下，本席在擔任縣長的時候，蔡英文就職以後，就有執政黨的秘書長來跟我談要怎麼樣處理我的司法案件，本席先在這裡跟您預報一下，還可以交換的，本席是嚴正拒絕，在這裡先預報一下。"],["主席：謝謝傅總召，謝謝鄭部長。","因為羅委員在場，剛剛的宣告更正為羅委員質詢完畢後休息。","接下來請邱委員志偉，邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-24","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","林思銘","謝龍介","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","羅智強","林德福","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.016593750000002,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"e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代為修正委員你講檢察官助理嗎"},{"start":381.202,"end":391.777,"text":"法官是聽受要秉持公正中立的原則而不是自己把自己來當檢察官的助理所以"},{"start":393.098,"end":417.794,"text":"這個案子一提出來司法院馬上就會要求他們要法官助理他們本來就有法官助理了他們還要擴編要擴編員額已經到立法院來要名額了而且跟委員報告這個檢察助理是有效可以減少檢察官的一個工作負擔我想這是一個整體的一個考驗這點請委員能夠自責本席並沒有反對現在是說先把事務官補齊好不好是"},{"start":418.354,"end":446.531,"text":"另外這個臺中又發生這個隨機殺人事件在捷運上面請教一下對於廢死您的看法如何我想法務部的立場都是部長部長您的立場我這邊不能談我個人的立場為什麼不能談個人的立場一個部長是政務官政務官對於政策要講清楚這個是一個法務部的一個立場那個立場我想我們都是我們都是在"},{"start":447.532,"end":470.405,"text":"在釋憲在憲法法庭那個釋憲是另外一件事情嘛一個政務官政務官的風骨嘛你的部長你當了政務官當然你的態度嘛我們法務部這個就是合憲死刑製法就是合憲的合憲這是我們想我們絕對我自己來當法務部嘛就是要對嘛要敢要挺直嘛未來你們下面的檢察官治安不好都跟部長的態度有關係嘛對不對"},{"start":473.266,"end":500.928,"text":"如果你們去支持Face還是陳鳳尚義那我以後不得了啊這案子永遠辦不完啊而且越來越兇啊這社會治安怎麼辦司法是社會的最後一道正義的防線嘛當然你們檢察官你的腰桿要站直嘛部長是承擔所有政治責任你要讓下面所有的檢察官能夠有所侍從嘛"},{"start":501.82,"end":521.05,"text":"我們都支持法務部但你們要趕自己要挺職阿對不對另外阿這個賴清德總統我延續一下剛剛西龍界委員講的阿前天的宣誓阿這個黑金槍圖阿這個圖圖漏掉官商勾結貪贓枉法齁"},{"start":523.356,"end":551.259,"text":"本席對於台南啊這個88槍啊然後再10槍在當街槍殺就是為了這個綠能相關的不法利益啊我希望啊這個台南啊您出生自台南擔任國檢察長先把台南問題把它處理乾淨一點有沒有信心這個我會這個本來就是有沒有信心這個我沒有權利來做有沒有信心嘛"},{"start":552.382,"end":580.607,"text":"這個我們當然這個要全力來做就會建立民眾對我們的一個信任好我再最後再請教一下對呀這個林志廟縣長被起訴那時候您在哪裡起訴那時候我已經離開連政署了所以資料蒐集的時候有參與對不對對那個偵辦的時候我有參與那高鴻安呢市長高鴻安是我在北檢檢察長的時候起訴的"},{"start":581.651,"end":582.612,"text":"政司法如同皇后的徵抄"},{"start":611.997,"end":631.002,"text":"如果我們檢察官、司法要揣摩上意來辦案我想是沒有辦法得到人民的支持跟掌聲在這裡要請部長您來的過程當中你跟前幾任的部長在資歷上"},{"start":633.476,"end":662.416,"text":"可能沒有像他們這麼晚輩尤其在北檢短短一年就接任部長這是屬於天賦異稟級的所以我們希望部長未來的成績大家都在看希望部長能夠摒棄政治的干擾本席在這裡預報一下本席在擔任縣長的時候蔡英文就職以後"},{"start":664.639,"end":682.947,"text":"就執政黨的秘書長來跟我談要怎麼樣處理我的司法案件本席現在先在這裡跟您預報一下還可以交換的本席是嚴正拒絕在這裡先預報一下"}]}},{"id":"152772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d9d5df08b342b24ff3a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017a50e264968218f985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:21:02 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10:27:56","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:27:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:21:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時21分）謝謝主席，請高副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：副主委，本席在這邊想先就教你，請問國發會的主責業務當中，哪一項是刻不容緩，是關乎我們國家的未來跟經濟前景的當務之急，必須要有對策，要先來解決的？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就我們國發會的職掌，而且衡酌現在國內、臺灣的經濟發展狀況，我覺得產業跟人力這兩個應該是最重要的。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，產業跟人力、產業跟經濟等各方面都很重要，但是最重要的、最根本的就是少子化，所以本席必須先就少子化議題來跟你討論，因為我們看到現在整個臺灣的生育率，在2023年是全世界倒數第一，這個就關乎到我們，且整個影響所及是多方面、多元的，尤其是在教育方面，私立學校在招生不足的情況之下，就會有倒閉的問題。在勞動力方面，我們青壯年就業的勞動力減少，產業缺工的情形就會造成我們整個產業，甚至國家都會發生整個空窗經濟受限的問題。還有我們的財政問題，因為我們整個人口結構是倒金字塔型人口結構，所以我們的健保跟勞保在收入減少的情況之下，整個虧損的漏洞就會越來越大。尤其是在國防方面，青壯年人口的減少也會導致義務役跟志願役的招收非常困難，影響我們整個軍隊的運作及戰備的準備。","副主委，關於少子化的情形，整個社會歸咎其原因是出於高房價、高物價跟高工時、薪水低，還有育兒成本提高的問題，這些問題都是環環相扣的。副主委，少子化的問題在這方面是整個國家發展最根本的問題，所以請教你有什麼想法跟策略可以減緩少子化的危機？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想剛剛委員其實已經點出了我們要解決少子化問題的一些相關對策啦，目前我們有少子女化的對策計畫，其實每年已經編到大概1,292億元啦，這邊主要是用在減輕年輕人育兒負擔的這個構面，你剛才其實也有提到高房價、低薪及一些相關的課題也是會影響到年輕人……"],["呂委員玉玲：你只有編列預算，根本沒有辦法解決根本的問題。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所以我們持續在滾動檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：是要滾動檢討沒有錯啊，可是你們滾動了這麼多年，我看你的解決方案都沒有出來，尤其是我們看到2022年增加的人口是15萬，但是在你們整個所做出來的報表裡面，2022年到2070年的人口數推估報告裡面有特別提到2023年的低估值，這個推估是分成高、中、低，低估值是在14萬，但是2023年我們的出生人口數只有13萬，所以你們只會寫報告，你是怎麼去評估這個低估值的？你怎麼評估的？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上的確啦，2023年我們實際的出生率遠較我們想像的低推估值……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你怎麼去評估的？你整個計畫沒有一個策略去應對、解決少子化的危機啊！你連這個低估值都沒有辦法掌控到，實際數還低於你的低估值，這個是非常大的問題，所以本席為什麼從少子化這邊先跟你就教與討論，因為這是最重要的根本問題，人才也是最重要的，但少子化會造成整個國家經濟發展的問題。尤其今天我們要討論的是外國專業人才延攬跟僱用的問題，最重要的就是要放寬僑生在畢業之後可以申請永久居留資格，但是我們看到國發會在2018年就開始在推動讓外國人士可以申請「工作許可」、「居留簽證」、「外僑居留證」及「重入國許可」四合一的就業金卡。副主委，就業金卡你們執行了6年，執行的成績是如何？到現在6年的時間，你們只發放了9,664張，你還喊出2030年要延攬7萬名的國際專業人士，你有這個信心嗎？你做得到嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，我們設定這7萬個國際專業人才是包括特專跟一般專業人才，就業金卡是屬於特專那一塊，我們目前的國際專業人才含就業金卡的部分大概是1萬4,000人。"],["呂委員玉玲：那你的7萬人呢？就業金卡實施這麼久了，是沒有功效嗎？很困難嗎？這個已經放寬了！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛提到就業金卡是四項合一的，就是要給你們去延攬人才進來，都有在規範裡面，但是你們還是沒有辦法！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這1萬4,000個特定專業人才裡面，因為我們有設定減稅等相關的規定，所以我們設定的是有某些高標準……"],["呂委員玉玲：我現在跟你講的是就業金卡部分。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：這也是延攬人才啊，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，就業金卡也是一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們7萬人的目標，做得到嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們7萬人……"],["呂委員玉玲：你既然喊出來了，不要只會做報告、只會寫報告而已，根本就達不到標準！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們有信心可以達到。"],["呂委員玉玲：有信心？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：2030年要達到？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為它涵蓋特定專業人才跟一般專業人才，我們特定專業人才現在已經到1萬4,000人了。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席在這邊也要請副主委，還是要針對問題的根本，你們就應該要跨部會去統籌來建立合作的機制，讓我們整個目標更加地明確，來增加生育率的問題，讓我們國人能夠有生養的意願，更願意生養，這才能解決人才的根本問題，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，謝謝委員指正，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.50221875,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.14221875,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.50909375,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.17534375,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.75096875,"end":38.759093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.096593750000004,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.34034375,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.985343750000006,"end":49.002218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.01909375,"end":49.829093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.149718750000005,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.45284375000001,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.11534375000002,"end":137.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.91659375,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.62346875,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.36534375000002,"end":158.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.58846875,"end":161.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.71034375000002,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.98346875000001,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.94909375,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.36659375000002,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.80034375000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.81221875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.19596875000002,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.32159375,"end":215.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.56596875000002,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.53721875000002,"end":228.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.15971875000002,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.50534375,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.19159375,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.56159375000001,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.33096875,"end":294.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.27596875,"end":298.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.88721875000005,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.18034375,"end":329.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.68409375000005,"end":331.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.10971875,"end":334.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.42596875000004,"end":336.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.48471875,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.91034375000004,"end":340.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.21784375000004,"end":353.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.03909375,"end":368.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.86034375,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.48846875000004,"end":369.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.66096875000005,"end":375.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.30221875,"end":370.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.69784375,"end":378.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.09846875000005,"end":381.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.76909375,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.96659375,"end":404.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.23784375,"end":406.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.49909375000004,"end":408.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.82346875,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.45596875,"end":413.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.851,"end":11.114,"text":"謝謝主席請高副主委來請高副主委"},{"start":17.179,"end":23.588,"text":"委員長副支委本席在這邊想先就教您請問說國發會在主責業務當中哪一項是刻不容緩在關乎我們國家的未來跟經濟前景是當務之急必須要有對策先來解決的"},{"start":33.764,"end":34.765,"text":"韓國發會執掌和橫卓在台灣的經濟發展狀況中,產業和能力應該是最重要的。"},{"start":54.462,"end":77.534,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":77.594,"end":77.734,"text":"則不予審查：呂玲"},{"start":99.735,"end":127.159,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":127.199,"end":127.479,"text":"則不予審查：呂玲"},{"start":150.538,"end":172.875,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":172.955,"end":173.175,"text":"蘇珊妮娜"},{"start":192.386,"end":192.426,"text":"蘇玉玲議員"},{"start":216.599,"end":229.891,"text":"﹗高中低估值是在14萬但是我們在2023年我們人口數只有13萬所以你這個只會寫報告你這個怎麼去評估這個低估值的你怎麼評估的"},{"start":231.793,"end":231.974,"text":"蘇玉玲議員"},{"start":249.514,"end":269.684,"text":"﹗﹗﹗"},{"start":269.684,"end":293.541,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":294.38,"end":303.725,"text":"副主委就位金卡你們執行的6年執行的成績是如何?你現在只有6年的時間你只有發放9664張那你還喊出來說2030年你要延攬7萬名的國際專業人士你有這個信心嗎?你做得到嗎?"},{"start":313.191,"end":340.21,"text":"好 那跟委員報告說我們設定的7萬的國際專業人才是包括特專跟一般專業人才那目前呢大概就是就業金卡是屬於特專那一塊那我們目前的國際專業人才大概是14000專業人才14000人含就業金卡含就業金卡 那你的7萬人就業金卡實施這麼久了是沒有功效嗎 很困難嗎"},{"start":343.48,"end":368.841,"text":"你這已經放寬了,我剛才提到就業金卡裡面就有四項合一的,就是給你們去延攬進來,都有在規範裡面,但是你們還是沒有辦法。因為我們就是一萬四千的特定專業人才裡面,我們是因為我們有設定減稅等相關的規定,所以我們設定的是…我現在跟你講就業金卡部分,這也是延攬人才啊,對不對?所以你的七萬人你做得到嗎?"},{"start":370.323,"end":375.975,"text":"你居然喊出來了不要說只會做報告只會寫報告而已根本就達不到標準啊"},{"start":376.721,"end":384.487,"text":"我們有信心可以達到2030年要達到所以本席在這邊也要請副主委還是對問題的根本你們就應該要跨部會去統籌來做合作的機制讓我們整個目標要更加的明確來增加生育率的問題讓我們國人能夠有生養的問題的意願更願意生養"},{"start":404.381,"end":404.501,"text":"陳金輝委員"}]}},{"id":"152771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9da62d6a3d4b38fa6d88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d20172920bcfc32d3c7235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:10:08 - 10:23:57","影片長度":"00:13:49","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":829,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:23:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:10:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時10分）主席及各位先進。有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委早。我看你第一次來有點緊張。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有！"],["賴委員士葆：不要緊張。外面對你的評價一開始都不錯，大家都說你的人緣不錯，你當教授的時候常常替業界出點子、替他們解決問題等等之類的，我看到你們的施局長笑嘻嘻的，你來當主委是保險的，你當教授的時候跟業界的關係很好，所以業界放鞭炮，特別是保險業。可是金管會的執掌有兩塊，一塊是監理、一塊是金融產業發展，我看你今天的報告，老實講，金融產業發展談得滿多的，相對地，監理就談得不多，所以外界會擔心，因為監理會讓人家討厭，你本來是教授、副院長，人人好、人人愛，現在要管人家會人人嫌，當一個被討厭的人，你的心境怎麼調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我會接下這個工作，心情當然已經調整了，剛才委員指正我的報告裡面可能比較少，確實，因為主要是針對業務報告，而且距離上次的業務報告有點近，我主要是針對我未來要推動的部分。其實我們的監理內容很多都沒有寫在上面，但是我們會持續推動，金融安全是最重要的，但是安全之餘，就誠如委員剛才提到的，發展也是很重要，如果市場沒有了，也沒有什麼監理的標的，所以這部分我們會持續強化，沒有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：我覺得現在的發展沒有人會擔心，因為你在這一塊的人脈已經在那裡，現在大家擔心的是你的監理能不能做到真正鐵面無私，而不是後面有很多的包袱，因為關係愈多愈好就是包袱愈大，就是這樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個應該沒有，請委員放心。"],["賴委員士葆：好，wait and see。請教你幾個重大政策，我剛剛看你回答其他委員都很簡短，我希望你就簡短回答，因為我有好幾個問題要問。當沖的證交稅要不要繼續調降？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的意見已經給主管機關，從金融市場監理角度來看，當沖……"],["賴委員士葆：你跟我講要不要，Yes or No？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在提給財政部的意見是支持，然後維持五年的延長。"],["賴委員士葆：維持再延長五年嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，現在是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：但是有其他不同聲音出來，包括教授也好，包括立委們也有人提出，沖了老半天當沖都沒賺錢，殺進殺出是賺爽的而已，你要不要講一下？當沖平均最大獲利者是誰？大戶、一般散戶大部分是盈還是虧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請交易所統計當沖資料，從獲利人數和賠錢人數來看，獲利是稍微多一點、賠錢少一點，但是在金額上面，從買進賣出的價差來看確實是賠錢的金額大一點，不過他賠錢主要是集中某一個區塊上面。"],["賴委員士葆：哪一個區塊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個可不可以請我們交易所說明？"],["賴委員士葆：簡短，因為我的時間不多。"],["主席：請林董事長。"],["林董事長修銘：跟委員報告，關於當沖的部分，剛才主委也有提到，在當沖的占比中，賺的人數大概53%，賠錢的部分是47%，其中13%的人占了九成的虧損，而且集中在交易比較頻繁的大戶上面，一般小戶是小賺小賠。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單來講，就是大戶因為有程式買賣，到了一個點就一定要賣，反而他虧的多，大戶虧的多，小戶小賺小賠，誰是最大獲利者？"],["林董事長修銘：最大獲利者……"],["賴委員士葆：誰賺最多？"],["林董事長修銘：我覺得最大……"],["賴委員士葆：你不好意思講，我替你講，你跟我說yes就好了，最大獲利者第一個就是政府，證交稅一直收，對吧？同意嗎？"],["林董事長修銘：是。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個是券商，手續費一直收，做內帳，對吧？這兩個賺最多，其他小戶小賺小賠，大戶沒什麼大賺，賠的比較多，就這個意思，是不是？"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，你剛才講的是正確的，但是我……"],["賴委員士葆：我這樣總結，對吧？"],["林董事長修銘：但是我還有一個因素要跟委員報告，因為當沖產生的市場機制，這個中性機制所產生的量能事實上也吸引了資金，讓我們整個資本市場更momentum。"],["賴委員士葆：所以政府稅收更多就對了。第二個，金融營業稅5%的問題，講一下你們的態度是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：103年稅法改成5%裡面有3%歸國庫、2%進入到特別準備，今年是10年到期，即將落日了，金管會的態度是希望兩千一百多億的特別準備能夠保留在我們存保這邊，作為未來處理問題金融業使用。至於未來稅率的調降，我們提出了兩個看法，第一個，因為金融業沒有進項稅額，因此相較於其他國家來講有可能偏高，再來，以金融業的國際競爭力來看，我們建議能夠調降，能夠從5%調降，我們也把這個意見送給財政部了，因為財政部主政。"],["賴委員士葆：從5%回到2%，還是回到3%？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們沒有針對稅率做調降，我們只是建議可以從5%調降。"],["賴委員士葆：所以準備金不要了，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：準備金是留在……"],["賴委員士葆：因為兩千多億就夠了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還不夠，實際上，我們存保那邊……"],["賴委員士葆：還不夠？那不能調降啊！哪有條件調降！這裡也要、那裡也要，哪有機會調降？不可能啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：5%是財政部主政，我們只是建議過去10年所提存的兩千一百多億，這部分繼續保留在我們的存保這邊，至於未來10年到了，財政部是主政單位，我們建議如果可以的話就調降。"],["賴委員士葆：調降為多少不知道？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是它主政的範圍。"],["賴委員士葆：這個還是要講喔！黃主委以前講得很清楚，他是希望調降為2%、3%，但你都不敢講？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們預期是這樣，但是我剛剛講過這是財政部的職掌，我們是建議調降。"],["賴委員士葆：對，但是你們的意見要出來啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們最近會再跟財政部做……"],["賴委員士葆：你心目中認為是2%還是3%可以接受？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果按照原來的結構，以稅收的考慮應該是2%……"],["賴委員士葆：你希望調低到2%。"],["彭主任委員金隆：特別準備金的部分變成3%，原來是3%進國庫、2%進特別準備，如果這個部分不要提的話就可以……"],["賴委員士葆：你現在是倒過來，3%進準備金、2%進國庫，這個意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：原來是3%進國庫，2%是特別準備金，因為它落日了，所以我們希望把它調降，現在委員問我的話，我會覺得2%的部分直接降成3%，大概是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：2%降為3%，你聽得懂嗎？我聽不懂。"],["彭主任委員金隆：5%降2%變3%。"],["賴委員士葆：5%直接降到2%，國庫不用給嗎？國庫要吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：國庫原來就是3%，但是我還是要強調，這是財政部的主政範圍。"],["賴委員士葆：最後3%，中間怎麼分再說，就是這個意思。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：5%變成3%，3%怎麼分再說。你有提到金融科技，簡單來講，其實你們原來一直想推金融科技，你們一直推，可是推的不怎麼樣，金融科技最大的問題在哪裡？在於大家都要以金融為主，原來的Fintech是要以網路科技為主，讓這些能夠創金融相關的業，結果我們立了法，金融沙盒也好或什麼也好，都是以銀行為主，所以請問你是不是有提到要成立Fintech發展處？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在主要是外界很多期待，希望金管會針對金融科技跟發展能夠有獨立的處，但是根據中央組織法規的規定，我們的局應該是達到上限，但是金管會整個內部編制裡面可以有4到6個處，是我們自己決定的，所以未來比較有可能的規劃是以處的方式來進行。"],["賴委員士葆：就等於任務編組？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我們內部按照組織法，可以4到6個處，我們現在只有4個處。"],["賴委員士葆：那個是固定的喔，固定的一個處喔，是不是這個意思？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，對。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那就不用修法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不用。"],["賴委員士葆：這個處人數大概size多大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在還是維持原來的人數，因為現在沒辦法在這個時候去爭取到員額，我們接下來會以現有人力先來做，假設做出成效我們再來爭取……"],["賴委員士葆：另外有一個大的問題想請教，有關於F4要不要合併，這是大家一直討論的問題，你的意見呢？我時間到了，快一點。證交所、櫃買中心、期交所、集保公司四合一。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，是不是容許我請證期局局長來跟你回復？"],["賴委員士葆：好，20秒。新的主委要不要？"],["張局長振山：其實過往有一些困擾，所以還沒辦法執行，過往我們曾經有思考後來作廢，那是在執行上有困擾。"],["賴委員士葆：所以新的主委沒有什麼新的變化就對了？"],["張局長振山：目前還是一樣，我們大概那些問題，比方說它有財團法人的問題，跟一般公司要合併起來……"],["賴委員士葆：好，目前不考慮。最後一個問題，你的報告提到推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，而且你要大幅放寬，既然是這樣子，很好，你有這樣的一個衝勁，那你一定要面對加密貨幣的問題啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們現在……"],["賴委員士葆：加密貨幣，香港發行比特幣、以太幣現貨ETF，美國有比特幣ETF等等的，請問你什麼時候可以開放？還是從來不想開放用複委託的方式去買海外加密貨幣的ETF？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在有關虛擬資產海外ETF，我們有非常深入去瞭解，各國其實是各有不同的制度，我們現在有在規劃，如果是，也是以法人客戶為優先。"],["賴委員士葆：時間表勒？"],["彭主任委員金隆：時間表，我們可不可以請局長說明？"],["張局長振山：我想在年底以前，我們內部應該會討論完畢。"],["賴委員士葆：年底以前可以複委託？臺灣可以複委託買海外含加密貨幣的ETF，是這樣子嗎？我這樣說清楚嗎？"],["張局長振山：年底之前會討論出一個明確的政策供外界來參考。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣要半年喔？不是說年底之前就開放？"],["張局長振山：要參考各國的實施狀況，因為很多國家有的有開放，有的沒開放，有的是有條件式的開放。"],["賴委員士葆：美國有沒有開放？"],["張局長振山：美國是有，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：有啊！對啊，香港也有啊！中國大陸？"],["張局長振山：中國大陸還沒看到，但是我們看到香港其實……"],["賴委員士葆：中國大陸放……"],["張局長振山：香港其實它是有條件式的。"],["賴委員士葆：好吧！"],["張局長振山：韓國也沒有開放，日本也沒有開放。所以這個我們還要再蒐集國外的狀況來做研判。"],["賴委員士葆：最後再一個小小的問題，關於補充保費費率，股票的利息……存股族以前是2.11%，現在預計要把它調到3%，這個金管會要有態度喔！會影響到長期投資喔！我們金管會是鼓勵人家長期投資的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個部分衛福部現在還沒有跟我們討論到這個問題啦，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：如果呢？因為媒體登這麼大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可能會來跟衛福部討論一下應該如何因應，但現在可能還要等它來跟我們討論這件事，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請王鴻薇王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.67034375,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.20534375,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.86346875,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.96034375,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.37346875,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speak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":"賴士保賴委員謝謝主席齊歌欣欣有請主委請彭主委你早賴委員好我看你第一次來有點緊張喔有不要緊張"},{"start":27.989,"end":53.206,"text":"這個外面對你的評價一開始都不錯啦講你人人不錯啊你當教授的時候常常替業界出點子啊替他們解決啊什麼之類你看到那個我們的這個市局長啊小嘻嘻的因為你來當主委又是保險的是不是所以你是當教授就是讓業界跟你關係很好業界放鞭炮特別是保險業"},{"start":54.773,"end":82.721,"text":"可是你要看金管會的執掌是兩塊一塊監理一塊就是金融產業的發展我今天看你的報告啊老實講你金融產業的發展談的蠻多的相對監理談的不多監理談的不多所以外界就擔心喔監理的話就是人家會討厭啊你本來原來當教授當副院長這個"},{"start":93.926,"end":113.834,"text":"其實我會接下這個工作這個當然心情已經調整了那剛才委員指正說我的報告裡面可能比較少確實因為這次主要是針對業務報告因為我們距離上次的業務報告就有點近我是針對主要是我為了要推動其實我們的監理的內容其實很多我是沒有寫在上面就我們會持續的推動"},{"start":114.854,"end":140.308,"text":"這個金融安全是最重要的但是安全之餘就跟委員剛才提到的發展也是很重要市場沒有了也沒有什麼監理的標的所以我覺得這部分我們會這個持續的強化這沒有問題這個現在我覺得發展沒人會擔心因為你這一塊啊人脈已經在那裡了現在大家擔心的是你的監理你不能做到真正的鐵面無私"},{"start":142.056,"end":147.579,"text":"我請教你幾個重大的政策來因為我剛看你回答其他的委員都很簡短了我希望你就簡短因為好幾個問題要問當初的證交稅要不要繼續跳槍"},{"start":171.099,"end":195.739,"text":"我們的意見已經給了這個主管監督我們從金融市場監理的角度來看不要不要嘛你跟我講我們現在是提給財政部說我們是支持然後維持五年的維持再延長五年嘛是的現在是這樣好了有其他不同聲音出來喔包括教授也好包括我們立委也有人提出來說這個老半天當從"},{"start":197.842,"end":214.103,"text":"都沒賺錢耶!賺瘦了!你這樣殺進殺出!齁!你要不要講一下大概當中平均最大活力者是誰?然後大部分一般的一般一般的一般大戶散戶是配要開"},{"start":215.382,"end":241.516,"text":"當初我們有請交易所有統計這個資料當然從我們從買進賣出的價差來看那獲利的人數跟賠錢的人數來看獲利是稍微多一點賠錢少一點但是金額上面確實是以那個價差來看是賠錢的金額大一點不過它賠錢主要是集中在某一個區塊上面這個我們可不可以請我們交易所"},{"start":244.478,"end":254.728,"text":"委員跟委員報告那那個當沖的部分來講的話剛才主委提到就是說我們的事實上當沖的賺的人數大概53%然後賠錢的部分是47%那13%這樣子的一個人呢基本上呢"},{"start":268.101,"end":268.301,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":297.267,"end":320.648,"text":"最大獲利者最大獲利者最多最多你不好意思講我聽你講你跟我說yes就好了最大獲利就是第一個政府嘛整家稅一里修啊對吧是同意嗎第二個券商啊手續費一里修啊做內定啊對吧這兩個賺最多"},{"start":322.577,"end":332.98,"text":"其他呢小戶小賺小賠大戶呢沒什麼大賺賠的比較多就這個意思是不是報告委員你剛才講的是正確的但是我覺得"},{"start":334.091,"end":351.562,"text":"但是我覺得說還有一個因素跟委員報告就是說因為當中產生的市場的機制這個中性的機制所產生的量能事實上也吸引了更讓這個我們的整個資本市場更好這樣就說一通夠了我們進入稅收比較多就對了第二個金融營業稅5%的問題來講一下態度是什麼"},{"start":358.306,"end":375.757,"text":"現在我們103年改成稅法改成就是我們5%裡面3%是歸國庫2%是歸進入到特別準備那今年10年到期落日了所以我們金管會的態度是認為說這個2100多億的特別準備希望能夠保留在我們存保這邊作為未來處理問題金融業"},{"start":377.478,"end":377.738,"text":"從5%回到2%還是回到3%?"},{"start":404.421,"end":418.756,"text":"我們沒有對稅率來做一個調降我們只建議說可以從5%調降因為準備金不要了嘛準備金是因為2000多億的夠啦還不夠我們實際上應該對就是說我們會有存保那你不能調降啊你這樣我等你的條件調降"},{"start":422.64,"end":442.14,"text":"5%是財政部主政那我們只是建議說過去所提存10年提存的2100多億那部分繼續保留在我們的那個存保這邊然後至於未來這個10年到了那財政部他是主政單位我們是建議說若有可以的話調降因為我們沒有這是他主政的範圍是"},{"start":443.769,"end":469.538,"text":"這個還是要講喔我覺得黃主委以前講得很清楚他是希望跳降就是他說跳降為2%、3%你都不敢講這個當然我們預期是這樣但是我剛才講這是財政部的那個執掌我們是建議調降對嘛但是你們預計要出來啊是所以我們會最近會再跟這個財政部做我覺得我請你確定你心目中認為最好是2%還是3%"},{"start":471.959,"end":484.828,"text":"如果按照這樣結構的話原來那個的話應該是就以稅收考慮應該是2%可以看就是希望調低到2%好我沒有看到原來那個特別準備金的部分就是變成3%"},{"start":486.502,"end":504.514,"text":"就是他原來就3%是進國庫嘛那2%進特別準備那個既然不要提的話就可以看那你現在是倒過來3%進準備金2%進國庫這個意思嗎?就原來就是3%進國庫嘛那2%的話是特別準備金因為他落日了嘛對所以我們希望把他調降對"},{"start":505.902,"end":520.553,"text":"就是如果現在委員您問我的話我會覺得就那個2%的部分直接降成3%對大概是這樣5%降2%變3%5%直接降到2%啦阿國庫不要給他喔國庫原來就是3%啦但是我還在強調這是財政部的主政範圍啦對"},{"start":531.525,"end":531.725,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":548.16,"end":574.002,"text":"其實金融科技我們原來一直想推一直推可是推的不怎麼樣金融科技最大的問題在哪裡就在於說大家都要以銀行為主啊原來的FinTech是要以網路科技為主讓這些能夠創金融業、金融的相關的業結果我們立了法金融薩爾也好什麼也好都是以銀行為主啊所以我就問你"},{"start":575.765,"end":601.41,"text":"你是不是有提到要成立Fintech發展處是不是現在主要是外界很多期待希望金管會能夠針對金融科技跟發展能夠有獨立的處但是根據我們中央組織法規的規定我們的局應該是達到上限但是金管會他的整個內部編制裡面他可以有4到6個處是我們自己決定的所以未來比較有可能的規劃是以處的方式來進行"},{"start":602.17,"end":602.55,"text":"另外有個大的問題想請教"},{"start":631.109,"end":649.541,"text":"有關你F4要不要合併了這是大家一直討論的問題F4啊一個意見這個因為我時間到了好是 那個財政交所貴買期交所期保四合一這委員是不是那個容許我請政局局長來跟你回答好20秒就好了要不要"},{"start":650.625,"end":651.305,"text":"推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心"},{"start":678.277,"end":696.948,"text":"既然是這樣子而且你要大幅宽寬很好你這個有這樣的一個衝勁那你一定要面對加密貨幣的問題加密貨幣香港發行比特幣以太幣的現貨ETF美國有比特幣的ETF等等的"},{"start":698.168,"end":724.921,"text":"我請問你啊就是你會什麼時候可以開放還是從來不想開放會有很多的方式去買海外的加密貨幣的ETF現在有關海外ETF那個虛擬資產海外資產我們有非常非常深入去了解各國的制度其實其實是各有各有不同的制度那我們現在的話有在規劃如果是的話也是以法人科為優先實現表呢"},{"start":726.605,"end":753.759,"text":"時間表可不可以我們請那個局長我想在年底前我應該內部會討論完畢年底以前可以互委託臺灣這裡互委託買海外行加密貨幣的ETF是這樣子嗎我這樣清楚嗎年底之前會討論出一個明確的政策供外界來參考要報你喔不是說年底之前就開放參考各國的實施狀況"},{"start":755.609,"end":784.915,"text":"那因為很多國家有的有開放有的沒開放有的有條件式的開放美國有沒有開放?美國是有有啊香港沒有啊中國大陸中國大陸還沒看到但是我們看到香港其實香港其實他是有條件式的韓國也沒有開放日本也沒有開放所以這個我們還要再蒐集國外的狀況來做一看那最後一個消息的問題就是那個補充保費啊"},{"start":788.664,"end":802.948,"text":"說這個股票的利息就是那個純股足以前是2%現在要把它調到3%2.1調到3%金融會有態度這個會影響到長期投資我們金融會鼓勵人家長期投資的"},{"start":803.695,"end":803.855,"text":"王宏威 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10:20:56","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":485,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:20:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:12:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":470,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時13分）主席、各位委員，有請副主委。"],["主席：來，請副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主委好。按照你剛才的答詢，你絕對不會有藐視國會，因為立法院職權行使法本來就有規定不能反質詢，也不能虛偽的答復，所以尤其是公務員都不會，不要擔心。會發生這種事情，大概是極少數，以我30年公務員、4屆立法委員的經驗，應該是極少數的才會發生這種事情，不用擔心。","今天的議題──外國專業人才延攬及僱用法，根據內政部的報告，到110年10月25號修正施行外國專業人才延攬及僱用法，外國專業人才申請永久居留案件共1,969人，勞動部擬取消僑外生評點制配額上限，然後擴大進用僑外生相關的這些，到113年已經提高至7,000人，人數一直在成長。國發會的報告提到，截至今年3月底止，外國專業人才有效許可人數是5萬6,427人，所以這個部分我要建議的是，因為這些專業人才是不是跟我們臺灣……我們臺灣的教育也非常棒啊！對不對？我們現在臺灣的年輕人就學，學校也培養出很多的專業人才。如果我們這一方面的專業人才不足，某個企業、某些企業跟教育部或是相關的學校、大學要怎麼樣去促進，因為畢竟還是要以本國的人才為優先，所以這個部分需要審慎地去評估、去因應，以今天的這些提案，副主委，你認為……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我想就像委員所說的，因為現在每個國家都跟臺灣一樣發生人才短缺、人力短缺的問題，我們當然希望是培養本土的優秀人才優先，所以大家可以看到，不管是我們的高教或是我們有一些特別條例、半導體學院等等，都是在全力培養國內的一些高階人才。","當然國內人才因為我們人口結構的關係，還是會不足，那不足的話，我們就希望從國外去引進，現在國外引進的方式裡面，第一個是我們建立一個專法，就是高階的技術人力；第二個，其實剛才有講到的，我們有一個僑外生留臺的評點制度，我們希望大量的吸引海外的、國外的學生來臺灣就讀。就讀完了以後，他既然用了我們的資源，也熟悉我們的語言跟文化，他就可以留下來。目前這個制度已經放寬到副學士以上都可以申請，而且績效其實還蠻不錯的，現在畢業的學士生幾乎有一半會留在臺灣，來補充我們需要的專業人力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我的建議是按照我剛才的陳述，你也認同嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以我們臺灣這些專業人才的培育，跟我們企業的需求，怎麼樣共同的去推動，如果仍有不足，才去考量這些，所以一定要去做審慎的評估。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，沒有錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然，剛才副主委你也提到了臺灣少子女化嚴重，整體來看國發會應該要去跟相關的部會，甚至行政院討論，我們對少子女化的因應到底足不足，不只是這樣，我們缺工很多也沒錯，但是怎麼樣去因應這些問題，不能一直一直引進外勞，包括軍人都一樣。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，沒錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我看到我們現在職業性的志願役軍人都不足，所以少子女化是一個國安的問題，沒有錯，但是怎麼樣去保障現有人員的就業，也是需要審慎的。就像今天勞動部也有來，勞動部一再開放、一再開放，這些倒不是專業人才，是一般的營造移工，開放非常非常的多，有這樣的一個數字，而且影響的當然是我們原住民基層的勞工，當然這個部分不是你的業務，但是應該是整體去考量。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，跟委員報告，其實有關於移工，如果是個別行業，那是屬於專案性的引進，就如所說，在進行專案性引進的時候，勞動部其實都會去評估它會不會影響到國內的就業，當然也會評估如果不引進的話，是否可能會影響到整體的經濟成長，經濟成長往下降的時候，其實也會影響到所有業別的勞工啦。所以這個會議裡面其實會有綜合性的評估跟考量，然後會權衡，一定是要對國家整體都會有利益，而且也不會損及到特定的族群啦。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然這個說來話長，礙於時間的關係，因為這還涉及到我們的薪資啦，因為外勞薪資比較低嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，我知道。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分是要整體考量，國發會要跟各部會去整體考量的。謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的發言。","主席宣告一下，待會本席質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。","請呂玉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw鄭天財"},{"start":274.721,"end":301.353,"text":"大量的吸引海外的那個國外的學生來台灣就讀就讀完了以後他既然用了我們的資源也熟悉我們的語言跟文化他就可以留下來那目前這個制度其實已經放寬到副學士以上都可以申請而且績效其實還蠻不錯幾乎有現在會畢業的學士生幾乎會有一半會留在台灣這樣子來補充我們需要的專業人力"},{"start":302.657,"end":321.488,"text":"我的建議是說剛才按照我剛才的陳述你也認同所以我們台灣的這些專業人才的培育跟我們企業的需求共同的去推動如果人有不足"},{"start":322.248,"end":325.849,"text":"是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。是。"},{"start":351.798,"end":375.92,"text":"主不主,不只是這樣啊,我們這個很多的這個也切工也沒錯,但是怎麼樣去再因應這些不能一直引進外,包括就能都一樣啊。我看到我們的就能,現在職業性的就能都不足啊。"},{"start":379.324,"end":395.942,"text":"稍指你話是一個國安的問題沒有錯但是怎麼樣去保障現有的人員的就業也是一個需要審慎的就像今天當然勞動部也要來勞動部一再開放一再開放這個"},{"start":398.234,"end":400.455,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":419.379,"end":441.291,"text":"對跟委員報告其實有關於移工喔如果是個別行業是屬於專案性的引進那就如所說在進行專案性引進的時候勞動部其實都會評估到會不會影響到國內的就業然後當然也會評估到如果我不引進我可能影響到整體的經濟成長那經濟成長往下跌"},{"start":442.812,"end":444.053,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":469.088,"end":469.448,"text":"鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"152769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d507bc923353c8f776fc1a8a999f94a213b43bbf2d64d20177ea79639e59c360a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:09:14 - 10:20:41","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":687,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:20:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:09:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["葛委員如鈞：感謝部長，您是我的偶像，所以有機會在這裡跟您做互動，覺得很感謝。但是最近政府機關裡頭發生了一些「抄」人特攻隊的案件，這是疑似抄襲的「抄」，第一件是前幾天剛舉行了520就職大典，根據府方的回復，典禮主視覺的設計費，這個icon的線條是這樣，決標金額要36萬，請問一下部長，您覺得36萬單位是臺幣還是美金？"],["李部長遠：36萬是美金嗎？不會吧！"],["葛委員如鈞：你相信是臺幣嗎？你覺得我們四年一次典禮的主視覺總計畫案的設計費2,350萬，裡面竟然只有36萬去畫這樣一個主視覺的圖，你相信嗎？這是我們臺灣的設計水平嗎？"],["李部長遠：這整個過程，我真的搞不清楚。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，希望能慢慢搞清楚，這個真的太重要了，昨天有的政黨說「民主已死」，今天民主還活著，所以我們今天可以來這裡互動、對話，但是我們的設計是不是已死啊？相信臺灣的設計沒有已死，我想問的是，這樣的影像，我可能還要再講一下，你才會知道哪一邊是哪一邊，右邊是那個疑似的原創者，左邊是我們典禮用的主視覺，假設您是國外原圖的創作者，您會不會覺得有一點抄襲的可能？"],["李部長遠：其實抄襲的認定，在法律上非常複雜。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我知道你會這樣回答，沒有關係，所以我剛剛先問您設身處地，您還不願意也沒有關係，我們慢慢培養默契。","我們依據廠商說明，這個貓狗徽章的設計是以公司購入的商用授權素材庫來做的，為此，我們還向總統府來調閱資料，第16屆總統副總統的就職典禮，決標金額2,350萬，不要講剛剛那個部分只有36萬；徽章的部分，不屬於政府採購的標案，這邊產生了很多的疑問，請問部長認同廠商的說法嗎？我們剛剛講到36萬，他說他還用了一些素材，像貓狗是以免費素材再製作，這符合文化部所謂的文創設計嗎？我先問這個問題，不過我先幫您補充一下。我最崇拜的臺灣電影導演是楊德昌，他最後一部電影「一一」，取名來自「道生一、一生二、二生三、三生萬物」，其中，道是最難的，道生一也很難，所以原創是最重要的。我看到您微笑了，我相信您很理解。請問這樣算原創嗎？"],["李部長遠：如果是我的標準，從以前到現在，我都很希望從最原始的idea開始都是來自自己。如果用我的標準來看，不知道算不算原創，但要是我的話，我會自己重新畫一隻狗一隻貓。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，謝謝您非常誠懇的答復。我想我們也知道部長很尊重原創，所以我非常感謝。部長的行政閱歷其實也很豐富，但對不屬於政府採購得標的，即便廠商免費提供就可以隨意採用嗎？520總統就職典禮這麼重要的活動，他卻說這個徽章不屬於政府採購標案，所以就能隨便發放嗎？這應該可以回答，這沒有主觀的問題吧？"],["李部長遠：在我的文化部，我希望沒有這種事情！"],["葛委員如鈞：這樣文化部有點打臉總統府！沒有關係，我相信您不是這個意思。","我們來看第二個抄人特效隊，這與文化部更為相關，因為你剛剛說前一個是總統府的，所以我們來看一下。巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺用了emoji表情符號，卻跟Apple iOS系列的emoji高度相似，疑似有抄襲可能，而且該案正好跟520就職典禮的主視覺設計師為同一個人。請問部長，就您的瞭解，emoji有沒有版權？先回答表情符號有沒有版權？表情符號設計有沒有版權？"],["李部長遠：它應該是一個幽默吧？應該是一個幽默的、有點有趣的……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有版權？"],["李部長遠：有沒有版權……因為這個創作……"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！這就是文化部官員的表情，面面相覷！我可以告訴你們，除了開源的emoji以外，emoji的版權屬於設計這組符號的供應商！以巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺來說，假如作者真的有使用或參考Apple……像不像？分得出來嗎？字會不會太小？左邊是Apple，右邊是文化部產出的成果；既然左邊是Apple，右邊是文化部產出的結果，那麼如果真的有使用或參考Apple的emoji，就必須諮詢Apple法律部門，並申請表情符號的使用授權！我在這邊跟大家分享這樣的訊息，好不好？請教部長，就你所知，巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺有沒有向Apple法律部門申請表情符號的使用授權？"],["李部長遠：目前沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，謝謝您的誠懇答復。此案其實是民眾陳情，請文化部就本案emoji的授權情形於一週內以書面方式回復本席辦公室，否則真的是設計已死！","最後一個案子，抄人特攻隊還沒完。剛剛很多人已經問了，部長也很誠懇答復，我們不應該推給第一線。所以我直接問你一個問題，部長能不能在此先代表文化部向原繪師表示歉意，不要推給第一線！"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，我願意代表文化部向原繪師道歉！我也願意向所有非常期待臺灣有自己原創的人道歉！"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長、謝謝部長。接下來，除了道歉以外，我希望要完成清查，看臺文館還有沒有相關案例涉及抄襲？其次，在審查流程上，未來能否禁止這方面的事情再次發生？另外，有沒有行政疏失？希望部長不是只有道歉，我相信您的行動力也是很強的，我們一起來努力。","還沒有結束，再請教一下部長，剛剛都講過了這個影像問題，所以我就不放了。相信部長應該可以理解我真的是您的粉絲，在投影片上看到這影像我都會感動到哭。接下來要請教部長，您是臺灣新電影的重要推手之一，我在無數的演講、在我自己的官方網站裡隨時都放著楊德昌導演的電影對我的啟發，您也是這些導演背後一個非常重要的推手。1980年代，您在社會氛圍非常嚴厲的情況下，你們竟然能夠一起以團隊去創造了臺灣新電影時期！您曾經說過一句名言：作品本身具有實驗性和原創性，如果在票房上失敗了，就算要拍八部、拍十部都值得！但如果因為模仿抄襲而獲得利潤並不值得鼓勵！部長，您今天是以文化部部長的身分到立院備詢，相隔四十多年，我想再次請教，對電影來講最重要的東西到底是什麼？是實驗性？原創性？利潤？票房？還是特效？還是精美的畫質？您的想法有改變嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實到現在我有兩種對於電影的認知：一個是電影的投資很大，所以電影是拍給觀眾看的。像導演李安曾經說過，他做別的事情他可以不考慮觀眾，但是做電影他一定要考慮，因為投資非常大。另外，如果在有限的經費裡，我們非常鼓勵實驗電影，譬如短片，可以在經費有限、不用面對觀眾的情況下，所以我非常支持拍實驗電影。"],["葛委員如鈞：報告文化部部長，您剛好可以檢討一下金鐘獎把短片變成60分鐘以上才能參賽的規定，我們之後再聊這個議題。","我們來看一下匯聚臺流文化黑潮─臺流文化內容躍升計畫，不知道您有沒有看過？這裡面爭取到四年100億的黑潮計畫，但頭也不是、尾也不是，裡面對於實驗性和原創性隻字未提！如果要砸大錢進去拍？很抱歉，影視音文化內容竟然只有17億元！部長，您當時推動拍攝光陰的故事，我們都知道想要拍怪獸片，後來用玩具去拍，但我看了真的很感動，而當時的四個導演：陶德辰、楊德昌、柯一正及張毅，全部都變成揚名國際的大導演！想請教一下，您認為黑潮計畫，不管是目標或者內容，根據我剛剛的描述，是不是有再調整的空間？"],["李部長遠：您剛才講到光陰的故事，讓我回到了1980年代，那時候因為那家電影公司每次投資都四千萬、五千萬，但虧光了，所以才輪到我們這些年輕人進去。我記得光陰的故事只花400萬，小畢的故事也400萬，結果賣到三、四千萬！所以在我的觀念中一直不覺得電影是完全可以靠金錢來堆砌的，它也可以有很好的巧思，在不高的預算下大賣。我知道在臺灣這個環境中投資太高，幾乎回收的可能性不高！如果你問我，那麼我很鼓勵臺灣的電影創作者，用比較小的成本，拍比較有創意的電影，然後在全世界得到市場。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長這樣的精神！我想數十年如一日，就像您光陰的故事，這數十年就像一部電影一樣。這100億沒有提到原創性，沒有提到實驗性，但我們希望黑潮計畫可以在您的領導之下有新的風貌呈現！近來臺灣不管是電影或戲劇作品都非常辛苦，但是當我們有您的帶領，讓我們可以想像臺灣的電影是可以有活力跟朝氣的。部長，有沒有信心在文化部長任內，找回那個具有實驗性、原創性的臺灣電影文化，再造臺灣的電影浪潮？有沒有信心？"],["李部長遠：如果不是這個原因我就不會來這邊當部長。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，期待您早日提出小野版本的黑潮計畫，我給你一個暱稱：「野黑潮」，好不好？希望我們未來可以一起為臺灣的文化共同努力，謝謝！"],["李部長遠：謝謝你，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員，部長請回。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","吳春城","范雲","葉元之","吳沛憶","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","陳冠廷","林楚茵"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.32221875,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.25659375,"end":52.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.963468750000004,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.806593750000005,"end":63.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.47659375,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.60471875,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.65534375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.83659375,"end":87.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.99221875,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.59096875,"end":88.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.58471875000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.89784375,"end":192.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.44784375,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.82721875000001,"end":198.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.81409375,"end":201.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.31159375000001,"end":204.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.60221875000002,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.61034375000003,"end":211.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.95971875,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.97659375,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.92596875,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.57471875000002,"end":276.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.33784375,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.40471875000003,"end":282.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.48471875,"end":283.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.49284375,"end":285.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.01159375000003,"end":288.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.79159375,"end":290.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.31471875,"end":290.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.33159375,"end":29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這個真的太重要了昨天才有的政黨說民主已死今天民主還活著所以我們今天可以在這裡互動對話但是我們的設計是不是已死啊相信台灣的設計沒有已死齁"},{"start":101.684,"end":120.029,"text":"我想問這樣子的一個圖像我可能還要講一下你才會知道哪一邊是哪一邊右邊是那個儀式的原創者左邊是我們的典禮用的視覺假設您是國外圖的創作者您會不會覺得有一點抄襲的可能"},{"start":122.955,"end":135.125,"text":"其實抄襲的認定在法律上非常複雜我知道你會這樣回答沒有關係所以我剛剛先問您設身處地您還不願意也沒有關係我慢慢培養默契那我們依據廠商說明這個貓狗徽章的設計這個是以公私購入的商用授權的素材庫來做的為此我們還向總統府來調閱資料說這個16屆的總統"},{"start":148.176,"end":171.895,"text":"這個副總統候選人的這個典禮決票金額2350萬不要講剛剛那個只有36萬徽章的部分不屬於政府採購的標案這邊產生了很多的疑問請問部長認同廠商的說法用免費素材我們剛剛講了36萬他說他還用了一些素材那這個貓狗的說是免費的素材再製作符合文化部所謂的文創設計嗎我先問這個問題但我先補充您一下"},{"start":175.518,"end":193.75,"text":"我最崇拜的台灣電影的導演楊德昌他最後一部電影一一這個取名是叫道生一一生二二生三三生萬物道是最難的道生一也是很難的原創是最重要的我看到您微笑我相信你很理解請問這樣算原創嗎如果是我的標準"},{"start":199.824,"end":211.586,"text":"我從以前到現在我都很希望從最原始的idea就是來自自己如果用我的標準我不知道算不算原創因為要是我會自己重新畫一次狗一次貓"},{"start":212.998,"end":236.904,"text":"好我想沒關係這個謝謝您非常誠懇的答覆我想我們也知道了部長還是很尊重原創我還是要非常感謝那我想這個部長的行政約例其實也很豐富那不屬於政府採購得標的即便廠商免費提供我們可以隨便採用嗎我問林總有就職典禮這麼重要活動這個徽章他說不屬於政府採購標案應該可以隨便發放嗎"},{"start":240.507,"end":244.775,"text":"這個應該可以回答 這沒有主觀的問題嘛我在我的文化部我希望沒有這種事情"},{"start":246.656,"end":275.635,"text":"那這樣文化部有點打臉總統府沒有關係啦我相信您不是這個意思那我們來看第二個案例超人特工隊的第二支與文化部更為相關的因為你剛剛說那是總統府我們來看一下文化部的這個巴黎文化奧運台灣館的主視覺用了一個叫emoji的東西就表情符號跟apple的系列iOS的系列的emoji高度相似疑似有抄襲的可能而且該案正好跟520的主視覺設計師"},{"start":278.557,"end":297.311,"text":"同一個人請問一下部長就您的了解 emoji有沒有版權先回答表情符號有沒有版權表情符號設計有沒有版權他應該是一個幽默吧應該是一個幽默的有點有趣的問您有沒有版權有沒有版權"},{"start":303.1,"end":320.369,"text":"這就是文化部官員的表情面面相覷我可以告訴你們除了開源的emoji以外Emoji的版權屬於設計這組符號的供應商以巴黎文化奧運台灣館的主事節為例假如作者真的有使用或參考Apple的像不像"},{"start":324.036,"end":324.977,"text":"可以看出來嗎?"},{"start":324.977,"end":342.632,"text":"字額太小。左邊是Apple,右邊是文化部產出的成果。再來,左邊是Apple,右邊是文化部產出的結果。如果真的有使用或參考Apple的Emoji,必須諮詢Apple法律部門並申請表情符號的使用授權。"},{"start":343.573,"end":343.994,"text":"目前沒有"},{"start":357.728,"end":375.707,"text":"很好 謝謝您的誠懇答覆此案其實是民眾陳情請文化部就本案emoji的授權請醒於一週內以書面方式回覆本席辦公室否則真的是設計要以死了最後一個案子還沒完超人特工隊還沒完剛剛很多人已經問了"},{"start":377.188,"end":401.855,"text":"那剛剛部長也很誠懇的答覆我們不應該推給第一線那我直接問您一個問題部長能不能在此是否應該先代表文化部向原會師表示歉意不要推給第一線嘛沒有問題我願意代表文化部向原會師道歉我也願意向所有其實非常期待那個台灣有自己原創的人道歉"},{"start":404.576,"end":428.844,"text":"謝謝部長接下來還是希望除了道歉以外要完成清查還有沒有台灣館的相關案例有涉及抄襲第二審查的流程未來能不能禁止這方面的事情再次發生另外有沒有行政的疏失也希望部長不是只有道歉我相信您的行動力也是很強的我們一起來努力再來還沒有結束請教一下部長這個我們就不放了剛剛都講過了"},{"start":431.186,"end":456.166,"text":" 這個影像我相信部長應該可以理解我真的是您的粉絲啦這個影像我真的是看到在投影片上我都感動會哭接下來要請教一下部長您是台灣新電影的重要推手之一那我也在無數的演講我自己的官方網站裡都隨時都放著楊德昌導演的電影對我的啟發那您也是這些導演的背後的一個非常重要的一個推手"},{"start":457.566,"end":477.453,"text":"1980年代的時候您在一個社會氛圍非常嚴厲的情況之下你們竟然能夠一起團隊的去創造了台灣新電影的時期這個您曾經甚至有說過一句名言作品本身具有實驗性和原創性如果在票房上失敗了就算要拍8部拍10部都值得"},{"start":477.893,"end":497.095,"text":"如果因為模仿抄襲而獲得的利潤並不值得鼓勵部長您今天以文化部部長的身份到立院備詢相隔40多年我想再次請教對電影來講最重要的東西到底是什麼是實驗性原創性利潤票房還是特效還是精美的畫質您的想法有改變嗎"},{"start":498.387,"end":516.954,"text":"﹗"},{"start":517.074,"end":544.205,"text":"有限的經費裡面我們是非常鼓勵實驗電影的比如短片那個經費在有限不用面對觀眾的情況下我是非常支持拍實驗電影報告文化部部長那您剛好去檢討一下金鐘獎把那個短片變成只有60分鐘以上才能參賽我們之後再聊這個議題那我們來看一下這一本書會去台流文化黑草台流文化內容的躍升計畫不知道您有沒有看過"},{"start":545.545,"end":569.208,"text":"這裡面爭取到4年100億的黑潮計畫但是頭也不是尾也不是裡面對於實驗性和原創性隻字未提你說如果要砸大錢進去拍很抱歉影視音文化的內容竟然只有17億元請教一下部長您當時推動這個光音的故事我們都知道想要拍怪獸片"},{"start":569.949,"end":570.809,"text":"你剛才講到關於你的故事"},{"start":589.859,"end":618.392,"text":"讓我回到1980年代那個時候就是因為那家電影公司每次投資都四千萬五千萬就虧光了才輪到我們這些年輕人進去我記得關於故事只花四百萬然後小屁的故事也四百萬結果賣到三四千萬所以我觀念中一直不覺得電影是完全可以靠金錢來堆砌它也可以有很很好的巧思在不高的預算下可以大賣所以我在台灣這個環境中投資太高"},{"start":619.531,"end":631.34,"text":"﹗"},{"start":631.829,"end":657.602,"text":"所以謝謝部長這樣的一個精神我想數十年如一日就像您的光陰的故事數十年就像一部電影一樣這一本書裡面一百億沒有提到原創性沒有提到實驗性我們希望黑潮的計畫可以在您的領導之下有新的風貌近來台灣不管是電影或戲劇作品都非常的辛苦但是我們有您當年的帶領我們可以想像"},{"start":658.762,"end":660.083,"text":"希望我們未來可以一起為台灣的文化共同努力謝謝你 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3917d216ea04fd58c1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d2017e7f9e321232604b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:01:16 - 10:11:17","影片長度":"00:10:01","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":601,"meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:11:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:01:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時1分）我請董次長。"],["主席：來，政次。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，我們今天討論的是不動產估價師，以前大家對於不動產估價師可能印象比較沒有那麼深，但其實現在很多公務部門也都跟不動產估價師有合作的機會吧？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以不動產估價師其實已經是一個越來越專業的行業了吧？"],["董次長建宏：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛？所以我個人是覺得不動產估價師，像今天的修法，如果說他們要有助理，你們認為如何？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，本部認為相關的提案其實是非常合理，我們敬表同意。"],["張委員宏陸：好。另外，今天還有要修土地法，請問次長，有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣？"],["董次長建宏：這個部分，我是不是請……"],["林副司長家正：報告委員，因為我們現在有個地籍清理條例，早期有些登記在神明或是神祇名下的土地，我們會進行清理。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你回答我的問題啊！有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣？"],["林副司長家正：早期登記在神明名下的土地會有這種情況。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！對不對？這個可能很多人覺得很奇怪，怎麼會有神明的土地被拍賣，對不對？可是你要知道，從以前有很多人把土地捐給寺廟或捐給什麼，他是捐給誰？我們以前的年代也沒有這麼多相關的法規，那我捐給誰？我捐給天上聖母、我捐給土地公，這間廟就是他們的。然後以前也沒有這些財團法人的規定，也沒有董事會什麼的，他土地就登記什麼？就登記這一間廟，這個廟的主神是什麼，那時候土地就寫上祂的名字了，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好啊，現在問題來啦！我們土地清查之後，歷史的問題，今天他有很多……一、兩百年前了，他的後代也不知道去哪裡了，有的也沒有管理委員會，有的也沒有董事會，所以什麼都沒有，那我們土地清查之後，問題出現了，他沒有辦法去完成登記，結果神明的土地就要被政府拍賣了，次長，你覺得這合理嗎？我們要去清查這個土地，我是支持的，我也認為應該要做的，可是這個歷史是這樣，我們就一定要這麼硬邦邦的，要照這些規定來，結果造成神明的土地被拍賣。你去拜拜，求神明保佑你，結果我們的政策要拍賣祂的土地、祂的財產，次長，你會不會覺得這個有點奇怪，邏輯不通？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員指教，委員提到的這個部分，我們會特別注意，因為土地清查是國家非常重要的政策，但是涉及到相關的民間習俗跟一些權益事項，我們會特別注意，未來再跟委員請益，看是不是有什麼樣相關的方法，我們來做修正？"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我覺得啦，地政司……"],["林副司長家正：也跟委員補充一下，因為這些土地的部分，就像委員講的，時代非常久遠，所以清查這個工作我們都一定會特別要求，在標售時，有些土地的部分，如果寺廟或者神明的相關關係人有出面的話，他也可以申請暫緩標售，這些土地的部分，我們在處理上會非常慎重。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，你講這些，我也不能說你錯，你就是照法令啦！我覺得很多事情是要這樣，次長，你想想看，我們對於這些神明或地籍清理這些，我們應該要提供專案輔導的協助，你認為合不合理？"],["董次長建宏：委員建議的部分，我們部內可以先來討論，我們也會再去跟委員請益……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，你們要討論什麼，我都尊重，但你覺不覺得要以專案來輔導、來協助？如果沒有，你請地政司回答。"],["林副司長家正：這個部分，我們會請縣市再瞭解一下現在神明會的土地登記情況是怎麼樣，我們來做一個專案的調查，看他們還有什麼不足的部分、需要協助的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講啦，他們如果沒有原始規約或者是成立時候的信徒出資證明，這些東西很多都已經一、兩百年前了，我跟你講，如果是你家，你拿得出來嗎？誰要回答？如果是你們家，你們拿得出來嗎？"],["林副司長家正：現在這些土地，有關於神明會的組成都是跟地方的民政來申請，可能有些史料或地方文獻會有一些記載的部分，現在有些也是透過這些旁證的資料來做佐證，所以這個可能要看個案。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，不要再講什麼個案，這個問題我認為應該是要處理了，文史工作者都可以去找這些寺廟，你們要把寺廟變成古蹟，都可以去儘量找資料、找什麼，然後把它變成古蹟，像這一種呢？為什麼不行呢？就是一個態度而已啦！我覺得是態度要拿出來，解決這個問題啦！這些東西也不是個人財產，我們根本不用擔心是肥了誰嘛！如果有了這個之後，你應該去要求，政府如果給你這些讓你可以繼承這些財產，就規定他不能登記為私人所有，他必須要設立管委會或是董事會或財團法人，這樣問題都解決啦！沒有任何一毛錢掉到誰的口袋裡啊！替神明解決問題，你才能國泰民安，我覺得應該是要這樣。","而且像現在有很多寺廟其實是坐落在國有土地上，我們的國有土地不應該是這麼嚴格的標準，國有財產署就是，我的土地不能賣啦，我的土地不能這樣啦！次長，只要是現有的寺廟，不是要新的，只要是現有的，國有土地的部分你們就要去跟國有財產署協調，不應該這麼硬邦邦的嘛！我們是替神明解決問題，不是替個人，是替臺灣的信仰，政治人物每次就要去廟裡拜拜，都不幫神明解決問題，我覺得次長，你應該成立一個專案小組來解決這個問題，我覺得如果你可以把它真的做好，我跟你講，神明也會保佑你啊！"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的指教，我們會回去研議，另外也跟委員報告，國有土地上的相關東西是不能標售的。"],["張委員宏陸：我剛剛講的嘛！如果每個人都要照法條來做事，那還請你們來幹嘛？我就一台電腦在這邊按下去，法令不行的就全部不要來啊！"],["董次長建宏：委員的建議我們一定會研議……"],["張委員宏陸：你們來是要來解決事情，不是來叫你們看法條、解釋法條，我跟你講，找一個特別會念書的，以後請AI來當部長、AI來當次長不就好了，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會照委員的建議去研議。"],["張委員宏陸：我剛剛講的那個前提是這些事情都沒有任何一毛錢流到私人的口袋，你要替臺灣所有的寺廟去解決這個問題，我覺得這是一個態度，對不對，次長？"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會再研議。"],["張委員宏陸：你們會再研議？你剛剛說你要……現在又要再研議？我認為啦！你們應該照我說的，成立一個專案去處理這些事情，你說要多少時間？我也不敢說你們要多少時間，畢竟這太複雜了，但你們應該要去成立一個這個，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢。","下一位請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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我覺得啦 這個第一陣子也跟委員補充一下齁因為這些土地的部分就像委員講時代非常久遠所以清查這個工作我們都一定特別要求那如果在飆售因為有些土地的部分如果有寺廟或是神明的那個相關的關係人有出面的話他也可以申請暫緩飆售那這些土地的活動在處理上會非常慎重我跟你講啦我跟你講啦"},{"start":287.222,"end":307.035,"text":"你講這些齁 我也不能說你錯啦啊你就是照法令啦齁 很多事情 我覺得是要這樣啦齁 瓜子長你想想看齁 來我們啦 這樣對於這些神明會的第幾的清理這一些啊 我們應該要提供啊專案輔導的協助 你認為合不合理"},{"start":308.564,"end":318.377,"text":"我想委員的建議這個部分我們可以部內先來討論我們也會再去跟委員請議你們要討論什麼我都尊重你覺不覺得"},{"start":323.157,"end":345.593,"text":"要以專案來輔導來協助。如果沒有,你請迪森斯回答啊。這個部分我們會請縣市再瞭解一下現在神明會的土地登記的情況是什麼樣。我們來做一個專案的一個來做一個調查。看那個他們還有什麼不足的部分需要協助的部分。我跟你講啦,大概就是我跟你講啦。他們齁如果沒有原始規約啦。"},{"start":347.595,"end":361.546,"text":"啊或者是啊啊有人家的成立的時候的信徒的出資證明啦欸這些如果很多東西喔一兩百年前我跟你講如果是你家你拿的出來嗎?哈?"},{"start":366.101,"end":389.862,"text":"誰要回答?如果是你們家你們拿得出來嗎?現在這些土地的話有關於神明會的組成都是跟地方的民政來申請那可能有些史料或地方的文獻可能會有些記載的部分現在有些也是透過這些旁證的資料來做一個佐證所以這個可能要看個案我跟你講不要再講什麼個案什麼的啦齁"},{"start":390.763,"end":407.313,"text":"我跟你講這個問題我認為應該是要處理的文史工作者都可以去走這些寺廟這樣你們要寺廟什麼要把它變成古蹟都可以去盡量找資料找什麼然後把它變成古蹟"},{"start":408.328,"end":431.951,"text":"那像這種呢?為什麼不行呢?就是有一個態度而已啦。我覺得是態度要拿出來解決這個問題啦。這些東西也不是個人財產。我們根本不用擔心是肥了誰嘛。那如果有了這個之後,你應該去要求我政府如果給你這些讓你可以繼承這些財產。"},{"start":433.937,"end":461.946,"text":"規定他不能登記私人你必須要設立你的管委會或是董事會或財團這樣問題都解決了沒有任何一毛錢掉到誰的口袋裡替神明解決問題你才能國泰民安我覺得應該是要這樣而且像現在有很多的土地很多的寺廟它其實它座落在國有土地上"},{"start":463.237,"end":474.946,"text":"他坐在國有土地上我們的國有土地不應該是這麼一個嚴格的標準我國有財產署啊我就是啊我的土地不能賣啦我的土地不能這樣啦"},{"start":476.59,"end":500.287,"text":"市長只要是現有的寺廟不是要新的只要是現有的那你國有土地你就不應該你們要去跟國有參與局去協調不應該這麼硬梆梆的嘛我們是替神明解決問題不是替個人替台灣的信仰政治任務每次都要去廟裡拜拜都不幫神明解決問題我覺得市長"},{"start":503.913,"end":528.18,"text":"應該成立一個專案的小組來解決這個問題啦我覺得如果你可以把他這個做好我跟你講新名外的保庇啊好我們我們會謝謝委員的指教我們會回去研議啊那個另外也跟委員報告我有土地上的土地啊相關東西是不能飆受的啊也跟委員報告我剛剛講的嘛吼你你弄"},{"start":529.332,"end":553.551,"text":"如果是每個人都要照法條來做事,那還請你們來幹嘛?我就一台電腦在這邊按下去,法令不行的都全部不要來啊。委員的建議我們一定會研議。你們來是要來解決事情,不是來叫你們看法條,要解釋法條。我跟你講找一個特別會念書的,以後用個AI來當部長、AI來當次長不就好了。"},{"start":554.512,"end":577.199,"text":"對不對?我覺得我剛講的那個前提是這些事情都沒有任何一毛錢留到私人的口袋阿你要替台灣所有的寺廟去解決這個問題阿我覺得這是一個態度嘛 對不對?次長是我們會再研議你們會再研議?你剛剛說你要說阿現在又要再研議我認為阿"},{"start":579.48,"end":580.04,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具"}]}},{"id":"152767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d27ca69f32549db7149cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20173150b0521439de9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:03:11 - 10:14:01","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":650,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:14:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:03:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時3分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["涂委員權吉：好，首先先恭喜彭部長。彭部長，因為你現在接任我們新任的環境部長，我們還是想要瞭解一下部長對一些能源政策的看法。部長，你認為核能是不是綠能？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我個人參加全球的氣候變遷會議，會中對於核能議題也有很多討論。核能在目前國際上的認知並不是綠能，但是它是一個潔淨的能源，低碳的能源。"],["涂委員權吉：所以認知上不是綠能，但是它是乾淨的能源。"],["彭部長啓明：乾淨的能源，對。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這一部分，部長好像有在媒體上講說，你也是傾向支持非核家園？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我是環境部長，我只能遵守環境基本法，所以就是非核家園。"],["涂委員權吉：所以你支持非核家園？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，如果要達到非核家園，就能源政策的部分，以你環境部長的看法，應該怎麼去做？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實能源政策是屬於國家跨部會的政策，當然環境部長有表達意見的權力。所以在閣員會議裡面，我的立場就是必須要做到安全，而且要做到能妥善的處理核廢料，當然這是核安會最主要的職責，但是我們會特別提醒，要凝聚全民的共識才可以往下做。"],["涂委員權吉：所以，如果核能能夠做到安全、乾淨的話，其實你也不反對核能，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我個人參加氣候會議，歐盟其實有一個EU Taxonomy，就是歐盟永續分類投資指引，其中把核能跟天然氣短暫的變成可以投資的項目，所以您剛才說的「綠能」是這個意思。但是它其實是有但書的，目前要屬於比較新型態的核能，才有辦法認定為這種「綠能」。所以我個人覺得，如果要做什麼動作，其實還是要遵照我們政府的指示，我希望是可以比較安全，然後大家很有共識的方式才來進行。"],["涂委員權吉：對。部長，我看你好像有在接受媒體訪問時講過，就是依法邁向非核家園，你說未來的核能沒有辦法解決現在的問題，你有說過這句話嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["涂委員權吉：如果不以核能來發電，你認為能源政策應該怎麼樣來做會比較好？"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前國家的能源政策有一定的趨勢目標，例如現在新任賴總統的政見是希望在2030年將綠能占比拉到30%左右，當然未來到2050年希望可以達到60到70%，因為再生能源不會用到所謂的化石燃料，這是全球的共識。但是核能的話，其實每個國家的狀況不一樣，所以目前在COP會議裡面通過的，的確是從氣候變遷的角度，綠能要增加3倍，然後核能也被當成是跟碳捕捉、碳封存、氫能等等一樣，也是邁進淨零碳排的工具之一。"],["涂委員權吉：好。所以，以目前來講，如果我們堅持非核家園，以我們現在政府的立場，那多元綠能是它的方向。如果以目前的多元綠能來講，我們現在看到最多的應該是光電跟風電，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，未來還有氫能。"],["涂委員權吉：還有氫能？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：目前沒有看到氫能，我們現在主要，如果以綠能來講就是光電跟風電。可是我們知道光電跟風電，其實它的成本很高，可是效益真的不高。如果目前不用核能，我們現在看得到的，其實最大的就是火力發電廠。我請問一下，聽說彭部長是觀音人，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，觀音出生，我是苗栗人。"],["涂委員權吉：觀音出生？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：出生地是觀音，那也算觀音人。"],["彭部長啓明：對、對，是。"],["涂委員權吉：所以剛好有在地的關係。我跟部長說明一下，其實我們整個桃園有1萬2,000間有登記的工廠，所以也是全臺灣密集度最高的工業區。我們桃園有五大發電廠，有一個全臺灣最大的觀音大潭火力發電廠，目前它有6具機組正在運轉，因為電力不足的關係，現在還有7號、8號、9號機陸陸續續也在試運轉。我們現在擔心的部分就是，因為火力發電的碳排量一定還是比較高，而且增加更多的機組只是讓我們的空污更嚴重！所以我們現在很多桃園尤其是觀音地方的鄉親都說，他們都是冒著健康的風險來讓全臺灣發電，讓桃園發電，那等於是用肺來發電。可是目前我們看到6具還不夠，之後還要再增加3具機組，所以，以空污來講，可以說變得更加的嚴重，不知道部長針對這一部分有沒有什麼看法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，天然氣排放的碳大概只有煤的一半，天然氣的污染也遠低於煤，但是我們未來會注意它會不會有臭氧發生。針對民眾擔心的問題，相對於煤，它少非常的多，所以各位委員可以稍微放心。至於會不會有安全的問題，我相信能源署或是台電，那是他們的職責，他們會做好嚴格把關的動作。"],["涂委員權吉：而且我們有2050，我看賴清德總統也有目標，2050是不是淨零碳排？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：淨零碳排剛好跟我們剛剛講那個火力發電相呼應，你要2050淨零碳排，可是你又一直在增加火力發電的機組，我覺得這個好像跟淨零碳排是相違背的，而且七大工業國集團G7也有講，他們以前也是反核，可是為了達到2050淨零排碳這個目標，他們認為核能也是他們發展的一個方向。我現在的想法就是，我們一直在增加火力發電的機組，然後又說要淨零碳排，這好像是相違背。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實天然氣是屬於一個橋接，橋接可能很難懂，就是一個過渡型的能源，等於是未來只要再生能源上去的話，這個天然氣就可以慢慢地減少，所以它是一個過渡型，在所謂的再生能源還沒有起來的時候，所以全球大概都是有這樣的一個共識。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我今天要提這個部分，就是因為剛好我知道部長跟觀音有淵源，然後觀音的鄉親對空污真的是非常頭痛，他們甚至還跟我們說他們希望能夠遷村，因為對空污即使他們反映再久也都沒辦法改善，而且又聽到還要再增加機組去運轉，所以他們真的是非常的恐慌，這跟我們的淨零碳排真的是相違背，對這部分我們以後有機會再好好來聊一下，再請部長針對這部分來幫我們支持一下。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題。"],["涂委員權吉：還有我們桃園前一陣子有一個靜桃專案，因為飆車族的噪音影響我們的住戶，尤其是晚上睡覺的安寧。後來張善政市長推出靜桃專案，成效還不錯，後來我有問薛前部長針對這一部分的預算是不是可以增加？因為很多縣市都認為聲音照相科技執法、移動式照相科技執法的成效很好，部長是不是知道這個事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，知道，目前我們正在跟中央爭取預算當中，希望未來全國大概可以有五百多具聲音照相設備，因為在我們民眾的抗議或是陳情裡面，其實以噪音的比例最高，也是最有感的，特別是在馬路上。所以關於這個部分，我同事的確有特別跟我報告過，那我們會極力的爭取預算，中央跟地方一起來合作，就像剛剛張司長講的，我們會盡力來執行。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這個部分，我希望部長、環境部來支持，因為全民覺得移動式照相科技執法的成效很好，然後也希望能夠多增加這些設備來抑止飆車族這麼猖獗地影響住戶的安寧。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的支持。"],["涂委員權吉：還有，剛剛我聽到部長有提到SRF排放標準，部長針對這部分好像說會嚴格管制，有針對這部分去做管理，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們目前第一個是源頭，第二個是他在燃燒的過程當中一定要進行……我們現在有一個預告修正的草案，在6月份我們大氣司會提供，首先要監測兩個：一個是氯化氫，還有強化檢查戴奧辛。委員考慮到的可能是有影響國人健康的疑慮，我們一定會嚴格把關，會來做這些事。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分要拜託部長，據我們瞭解，SRF排放標準根本幾乎跟垃圾焚化爐的標準一致。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：在臺灣做的SRF燃料棒裡面居然有塑膠、有廢輪胎，還有很多會產生戴奧辛的東西都在裡面，所以我希望部長對這個排放標準能夠好好的研議。尤其這又跟我們觀音有關係，因為SRF有3家要設立在我們桃園觀音，也是鬧得沸沸揚揚，民眾現在一直很關注這件事情。針對SRF排放標準，我希望環境部能夠訂定一個能夠照顧全民健康的排放標準，請部長跟環境部來重新訂定。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員的發言。接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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tax money歐盟的永續的分類的投資的指引他其實把核能跟這個天然氣短暫的變成是所謂的可以投資的項目所以您剛才說的綠能是這個意思但是他其實是有但書的目前要屬於比較新型態的核能才有辦法認定為這種綠能"},{"start":135.026,"end":136.107,"text":"對,那如果以部長我看你好像有在媒體有接受來講就是"},{"start":150.925,"end":167.331,"text":"就是依法邁向非核家園那如果說你目前你說未來的核能是沒有辦法解決現在的問題嗎你有說過這句話那如果不以核能來發電那你認為能源政策應該以怎麼樣來做會比較好"},{"start":168.251,"end":185.758,"text":"我們目前國家的能源政策有一定的趨勢的目標例如說像2030年現在新任賴總統的是希望拉到30%左右的綠能那當然這個未來到2050年希望可以到60到70因為這個再生能源其實他不會用到所謂的化石燃料"},{"start":186.198,"end":186.218,"text":"韓國媒體"},{"start":207.287,"end":223.632,"text":"好那所以以目前來講齁如果我們非核家園那以我們現在政府的立場那多元綠能是他的方向那目前多元綠能那如果以綠能來講我們現在最多看到的應該是光電跟風電是不是對未來還有氫能"},{"start":225.452,"end":246.362,"text":"稍後還有氫能目前氫能沒有看到我們現在主要如果以綠能來講就是光電跟風電可是我們知道光電跟風電其實它的成本很高可是其實效益真的不高我們其實如果說目前核能沒有在用我們現在看得到的其實最大的就是火力發電廠"},{"start":247.623,"end":275.502,"text":"那我請問一下我們彭部長我聽說是觀音人是不是沒有我觀音出生我是苗栗人觀音出生嘛出生地是觀音那也算觀音人啦對對對是是所以剛好有在地的關係啦我也跟我們部長來說明一下其實我們整個桃園我們有一萬兩千間有登記的工廠所以也是全台灣密集度最高的工業區那我們在"},{"start":277.743,"end":290.438,"text":"桃園有五大發電廠那有一個全台灣最大的就是觀音大潭火力發電廠那目前它有6具機組正在運轉那因為電力不足的關係那現在"},{"start":292.6,"end":315.529,"text":"有7號、8號、9號機陸陸續續也在試運轉我們現在擔心的部分就是說因為其實火力發電它的碳排量一定還是比較高而且你增加更多的機組織是讓我們的空污更嚴重所以我們現在很多桃園尤其是觀音地方的鄉親都說他們都是冒著"},{"start":317.045,"end":317.065,"text":"拜訪問"},{"start":335.639,"end":363.654,"text":"部長針對這一部分有沒有什麼看法?好,報告委員 這個天然氣它的這個排放的碳大概只有煤的一半那天然氣的這個污染呢也遠低於這個煤但是我們未來會注意它會不會有這個臭氧會發生所以民眾擔心的問題呢相對於煤它傻非常的多所以各位委員可以稍微放心那至於會不會安全的問題的話其實我相信這個能源署或是台電那是他們的這個職責他們會做好嚴格的把關的動作"},{"start":364.474,"end":383.381,"text":"好而且我們有2050我看我們賴清德總統也有目標2050是不是淨零碳排嘛對那淨零碳排剛好跟我們剛好我們剛講那個火力發電相呼應你要2050淨零碳排可是你又一直在增加火力發電這個機組我覺得這個好像跟"},{"start":386.002,"end":405.041,"text":"近年碳排好像是相違背而且我們四大七大工業國集團其實他們也有講他們以前也是反核可是為了2050向這個近年台胖這個目標他們也認為核能也是他們發展的一個方向"},{"start":406.708,"end":434.321,"text":"我現在想的說法就是說可是我們又一直在增加火力發電的基礎然後又說要建年碳排這好像是相違背報告委員其實天然氣它是屬於一個橋階橋階可能很難懂就是一個過渡型的能源等於是未來只要天然氣就是再生能源如果上去的話這個天然氣就可以慢慢的減少所以它是一個過渡型在這個所謂的再生能源還沒有起來的時候所以這個全球大概都是這樣的一個共識"},{"start":434.961,"end":451.563,"text":"好我今天要提的這部分就是因為剛好我知道說那個我們部長跟觀音有淵源然後觀音的鄉親對這個空屋真的是非常頭痛然後而且他們甚至還跟我們說他們希望能夠遷春他說因為這個空屋他們反映"},{"start":452.364,"end":454.485,"text":"稍後我們有機會再好好來聊一下：再請部長針對這部分來幫我們來支持一下。那還有我們桃園"},{"start":472.37,"end":485.927,"text":"之前一陣子有針對我們淨桃專案也就是說因為飆車族這個噪音影響我們住戶尤其晚上睡覺的安眠那後來張三振市長這淨桃專案"},{"start":488.182,"end":506.728,"text":"推出之後成效還不錯 那個後來我有問我們薛部長就是之前的薛部長好像針對這部分預算我們是不是可以增加因為很多的縣市都認為這個聲音照相科技執法移動式這個照相科技執法成效很好"},{"start":507.228,"end":525.226,"text":"那部長是不是知道這個事情?報告委員知道目前我們現在正在跟中央整齊預算當中希望未來可以全國大概500多具這樣的聲音造成因為我們民眾的抗議或是陳情其實噪音比例是最高也是最有感的"},{"start":525.566,"end":544.177,"text":"那特別是在這個馬路上所以這個部分我們的確我有請我同事特別有跟我報告過那我們會極力的爭取預算然後來中央跟地方一起來合作這剛才張市長講的我們會盡力來支持好針對這部分我希望部長環境部這些來支持因為這部分"},{"start":544.677,"end":560.414,"text":"全民對於覺得這移動式照相科技執法覺得成效很好然後也希望能夠多增加這些設備能夠抑止這飆車族這麼猖獗影響住戶的安眠好謝謝委員支持好還有剛剛我有聽到部長有針對SRF好像這個針對這SRF排放標準"},{"start":564.338,"end":589.761,"text":"部長好像針對這一部分好像說會去嚴格管制有針對這一部分去做管理是嗎對我們目前第一個是源頭第二個是他在燃燒的過程當中一定要進行這個我們現在有一個預告修正的草案在6月份我們大氣師會提供首先要監測兩個一個是氯化氫還有強化檢查這個大澳型所以這個委員考慮到的可能跟國人的健康疑慮我們一定會嚴格把關做這些事情"},{"start":589.981,"end":606.023,"text":"這一部分要拜託我們部長因為據我們了解我們SRF這個排放標準根本跟我們垃圾焚化爐的標準幾乎是一致它裡面SRF這個成分裡面台灣做的SRF這個燃料棒裡面居然有塑膠、有廢輪胎"},{"start":608.226,"end":635.709,"text":"很多可以製造代號心的東西都在裡面所以我希望這排放標準部長能夠好好的研議尤其我們觀音又跟觀音有關係所以SRF這三家有三家要設立在我們桃園觀音也是鬧得沸沸揚揚民眾現在一直很關注這件事情我希望最主要針對SRF這排放標準環境部能夠訂定一個能夠合乎"},{"start":636.349,"end":636.91,"text":"涂權吉委員發言接下來請王育明委員發言"}]}},{"id":"152766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9db4fdf919a67504d149cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d20178de241148e8b85f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:53:40 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10:03:04","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:03:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T09:53:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，恭喜，任重道遠！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：臺灣本來就是福爾摩沙、美麗之島，也期待在歷任的部長，還有彭部長繼續領導之下，讓臺灣的環境可以維持、讓我們世世代代的子孫都可以生活在美麗之島上。","距離當初卓院長在4月19號人事公布的記者會，到現在應該是滿月了。當初部長也說會在上任之前拜訪一些環團，請問一下，過去這一段時間來，部長拜訪了哪一些環團？交換了哪一些意見？有沒有初步的一些政策建議可以讓我們先瞭解？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我沒有徵得他們的同意，我不方便公開啦，但是我私底下花了很多時間一個一個，因為我跟他們講說我還不是部長、沒包袱，你就儘量跟我說。例如有很多的民間環團告訴我，環評法要來一個總體檢、空污的標準要再更嚴，或是我們的碳費制度要更快地進行，其實我都聽到了，所以我的包袱、壓力真的很大，所以我要靠我們的同事一起團隊合作來面對。我個人認為環團是給我們環境人一個很大的激勵，我非常地肯定，未來我會持續跟環團定期地來溝通。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以有很多的期許，當然也背負著很大的壓力，不過相信在部長的領導之下，應該讓環境部所有同仁可以一起動起來，讓我們的環境可以更好。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：當然大家最關心的還是空污，因為空污對……每天、每一個時間我們都在呼吸，WHO認為，99%的人口都居住在不是那麼好的空氣品質之下，現在研究都有證實空污會造成一些癌症或者是心血管疾病的風險。剛剛也看到部長的報告，其實臺灣在PM2.5細懸浮微粒這方面的控制，從105年的20μg/m3已經減少到112年的13.7，預計在116年可以降到13，這個是整體環境的細懸浮微粒PM2.5這一方面的改善。我們也知道其實0到35都算是正常範圍，超過71當然就非常不好，只是它的分布其實相對不平均。下面一張我們可以看到，我們很多的城市其實超過3到5倍，剛剛我們秀芳召委所看到的彰化，因為他居住在彰化，彰化看起來是很需要再進一步加強剛剛部長也提到，可能會依照不同的縣市做一些不同的處理模式。請問部長，針對我們看到有這樣的分布不平均，如何能夠具體地改善當地在這方面的影響？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實現在環境部跟地方環保局都有跨縣市的合作，例如中部、南部不一樣，他們針對一些空污事件都會有一個聯合作業機制，共同來降低排放源、提醒的機制。至於源頭減量的部分，其實我們在空氣污染防制法裡面都有相關的進度規劃安排，我們會持續來進行。但其實最關鍵的就是，要空污減量不是只有固定污染源，還有民眾的大眾污染源等等，生活中其實也都有，所以這個要大家一起減量才有辦法。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以不是只有政府在做相關的努力而已，也希望各界都能夠一起來幫忙。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我個人從民間來，我們家裡面煮個菜，PM2.5說真的有時候比外面還要來得高很多，所以其實民眾的生活習慣、瞭解認知要如何預防、改變，這個都很重要。"],["王委員正旭：好，大家一起來努力。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：再過來就是，除了PM2.5會讓大家擔心以外，其實空氣品質指數AQI大家也都非常關心。請問一下部長，我們現在多少以上的AQI就需要發布空品不良細胞廣播？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在是200以上，我其實有注意到這個問題，所以有請我們的監測司研議，其實我們環境部的app上面對空污的訊息掌握滿直接，所以我有請他是不是150就在我們的app上面提醒民眾朋友能夠來注意！"],["王委員正旭：是，因為韓國是150，大家也知道……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，已經設好了！如果你下載我們環境部的空品app，其實150就會提醒你了。"],["王委員正旭：OK，那知道目前下載的量，或者是相對能夠被民眾所理解跟引用的部分，有沒有比較具體的數據可以讓大家瞭解？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，在我們環境即時通的app裡面，因為部長指示，我們已經修正，只要你在這個區域範圍裡面的空氣品質AQI大於150，那它就會提醒，但是民眾需要去打開提醒機制目前我們這個app有5、60萬人下載，最主要就空氣方面，其實在空污季節民眾會比較關切，那細胞廣播是大於200，以上。"],["王委員正旭：是，當然，這是季節性會有的問題，不過我們也滿擔心突發性的空污事件，包括我們可以看到前一陣子的深坑大火，發生很嚴重的異味飄散，民眾都感受到了，可是我們有沒有辦法及時地去發布，對當地來講，就是很明顯的一個空污的突發性事件，不知道現在環境部這邊有做了哪一些努力？我們需要如何去配合地方政府的處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於這部分，例如深坑大火或南亞塑膠大火，包含我們跨司署都有做一個協調，所以我們現在有一個應變的機制，任何一個火災出來往下游擴散的區域，配合地方政府提早的預警，都有開始在進行當中，所以突發性的部分，我們改進的非常的多。"],["王委員正旭：好，非常棒。因為很多事情就是不怕一萬、只怕萬一，所以對當地的民眾來講，當有突發狀況的時候，他需要有一個非常迅速而且能夠及時去瞭解當地發生問題時，可以如何去幫助自己也幫助家人的一些處理模式，非常感謝部長這邊的努力。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：往後就要麻煩部長，針對環評委員組成的多元性，因為我們知道，其實從環保署時期第6屆到第14屆的環評委員的名單裡面，只有在第6屆的時候有相對比較多的環團代表。因為環境部是前幾年才改制的，事實上部長可以決定每兩年改選一次的環評委員的名單，針對這一部分，部長，如果環團代表是重要的組成部分的話，如何能夠讓這些非常熱心，而且很願意協助維護整體臺灣環境的這些環團成員，能夠有機會進到環評委員會裡面去貢獻他們的心力，這部分不知道未來部長有哪一些考量？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。有關環評這部分，大概明年年中應該會由我來擇定，但是我會遵照委員的建議，事實上我會開放，等於是我用開放政府的方式讓更多環團能夠來參與環境部或是意見的反應，這個部分我用開放政府的方式來進行。"],["王委員正旭：好。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：最後，請部長作為環境部同仁的後盾。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，沒問題。謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝王正旭委員的發言。接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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從105年的20的μg"},{"start":153.215,"end":179.112,"text":"已經減少到112年的13.7那也預計在116年可以降到13這個是整體的這個環境的尤其這個維福利PM2.5這邊的改善的部分我們也知道其實0到35都算是正常範圍超過71當然就非常不好只是它的分布其實相對就不平均我們可以看往下面一張看到"},{"start":179.972,"end":202.985,"text":"我們很多的城市其實是超過3到5倍那剛剛我們 所看到的彰化因為他住在彰化嘛彰化看起來是很需要再做進步的部分那剛剛部長也提到可能會依照這個不同的縣市做一些不同的一些處理模式那這邊特別請部長再針對於如果我們"},{"start":205.106,"end":211.94,"text":"看到有這樣的分布不平均的時候我們如何能夠具體的改善當地在這方面的影響"},{"start":213.201,"end":240.819,"text":"報告委員其實因為我們現在環境部跟地方環保局都有一個跨縣市的合作所以例如說中部還有南部有不一樣那他們針對一些空污事件的時候都會有一個聯合的一個作業的這個機制來共同來降低這個排放源提醒的機制那至於說這個源頭減量的部分呢其實我們在我們的空污房子規劃法案裡面都有相關的進度的安排啦那我們會持續的來進行但是這個其實最關鍵的就是說"},{"start":243.2,"end":246.422,"text":"所以不是只有政府在做相關的努力而已我們希望各界都能夠一起來幫忙"},{"start":262.228,"end":276.164,"text":"其實這個報告委員其實這個我個人從民間來我們家裡面這個煮個菜PM2.5說真的有時候會比外面還要來得高很多所以這個其實民眾的生活習慣民眾的瞭解認知如何預防改變這個都很重要"},{"start":276.988,"end":296.44,"text":"好,那大家一起來努力喔再過來就是除了PM2.5可以讓大家擔心以外其實空氣品質的指數AQI大家也都非常關心那請問一下部長我們現在多少以上的AQI就需要發布空品不良細胞廣播"},{"start":297.761,"end":326.56,"text":"報告委員現在是200以上那我其實有注意到這個問題所以我們有請我們的監測師其實研議說在我們環境部的APP我們環境部的APP其實上面對空污的訊息掌握蠻直接所以我有請他說是不是150在我們的APP上面就提醒民眾朋友能夠來注意是因為韓國是150那大家也知道已經設好了報告委員已經設好了就是如果你下載我們環境部的APP空品APP其實150就會提醒你了"},{"start":327.076,"end":355.309,"text":"OK,那知道目前下載的量或者是相對能夠被民眾所理解跟引用的部分有沒有比較具體的數據可以讓大家瞭解?跟委員報告因為那個就是在我們環境集中的這個APP裡面那因為部長指示我們已經把只要你在這個區域裡面那到這個區域範圍裡面空氣品質AQI大概150"},{"start":356.67,"end":356.69,"text":"致詢"},{"start":377.614,"end":392.684,"text":"是當然這個是季節性會有這樣的問題嘛不過我們有時候也蠻擔心的突發性的空污事件包括我們可以看到前一陣子這個深空大火發生一個很嚴重的意味的飄散"},{"start":394.181,"end":411.133,"text":"民眾都感受到了可是我們有沒有辦法及時的去發佈對當地來講這是很明顯的一個空無突發性的這些事件那不知道現在環境部這邊有做了哪一些努力需要做如何去配合地方政府的處理"},{"start":412.034,"end":431.909,"text":"報告委員,這個包含了例如說深耕大火或南亞塑膠大火,其實我們包含了我們的跨私塾都有做一個協調,所以我們現在有一個應變的一個機制,那任何的一個火災出來往下游擴散的區域,配合地方政府提早的預警,那都有開始在進行當中,所以突發性的部分的話我們改進的非常的多。"},{"start":432.756,"end":454.868,"text":"好,非常棒因為很多事情就是不怕一萬只怕萬一所以對當地的民眾來講當有突發狀況的時候他需要一個非常迅速而且能夠及時去了解當地發生問題的一些可以如何去幫助自己也可以幫助家人的一些處理模式"},{"start":455.828,"end":481.977,"text":"非常感謝部長這邊的努力那往後其實就是要麻煩部長針對這個環評委員組成的多元性因為我們知道其實從環保署的時期第6屆到第14屆的環評委員的名單裡面環境部是因為前幾年才改制所以這個名單相對來講"},{"start":483.317,"end":487.395,"text":"只有在第6屆的時候有相對比較多的環團的代表"},{"start":488.423,"end":514.421,"text":"事實上部長是可以決定這個每兩年改選一次的這個環團的這個環團委員的名單那這一部分部長不曉得針對於如果對環團代表是屬於這個重要的組成一部分的話那如何能夠讓這些非常熱心而且很願意來協助整體臺灣環境的這個維護的這些環團委員"},{"start":518.183,"end":546.798,"text":"能夠有機會進到這個環評委員的委員會裡面去貢獻他們的心理這部分不知道部長有哪一些未來的考量好 謝謝委員 這個第一個環團我大概明年很像我明年年中我應該是我會由我來選擇定但是我會遵照委員的建議那事實上我會開放等於是我用開放政府的方式讓更多環團能夠來參與環境部或是意見的反應這個部分我用開放政府的方式來進行"},{"start":548.259,"end":549.079,"text":"接下來請圖圈及委員"}]}},{"id":"152765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d4b666ccc4815d1c93a3b62c5cf6e8dc13b43bbf2d64d2017bb9a8a83aa9af3e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:04:14 - 10:12:49","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第四案如經復議，則不予審查）。）","date":"2024-05-22","duration":515,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,26,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1"},"end_time":"2024-05-22T10:12:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-22T10:04:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時4分）謝謝主席，請高副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：高副主委，今天我們處理的是外國專業人才延攬及僱用法。剛剛我看到了前面的委員，楊瓊瓔委員對你的一些答復有一段時間其實並不是很滿意的，在委員對於答復不滿意的狀況下，未來如果藐視國會法通過了之後，你會不會擔心影響到你的答詢？你會不會擔心觸犯到所謂的藐視國會法？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想我們在這邊答詢基本上都會盡我們的職責。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你會不會擔心？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：以我本人……"],["賴委員瑞隆：說實話，會不會擔心？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果是以我本人來說，因為我都會基於我的職掌來回答跟回應，我可能不會那麼擔心，可是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不只你，包括司長、處長，甚至科長都有可能被叫上來詢問，你會不會替他們感到擔心？藐視國會法……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果國會的多數就是認為你藐視國會，在法律的條文界定裡面認為只要你有藐視國會的行為的話，經過他們認定就是藐視國會，就是三年以下有期徒刑。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想就公務員來說，我們會希望這個法會訂定得更明確，而不是讓公務員覺得……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以高副主委誠實地回答，會不會擔心？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果照這樣的話，會不會擔心同仁們有擔憂，你認為同仁會不會有點擔憂？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果是以我來說，假如這個法通過了，我們可能跟同仁要對這個法有進一步的認識，避免就是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你長期在公務體系裡面應該知道，因為到立法院來，立委們要問什麼問題其實沒有人知道，它不像美國的聽證會有一個很確定的範圍，今天如果美國聽證會要談外國專業人才，你來談就是談這個，但是你看剛剛談到核電去了、問到核電去了，你對核電所回答出來的，第一個回答他滿意，第二個回答他不滿意之後，他就可能認為你並沒有……他就不滿意。我的意思是在這樣的狀況下，再回來談外國專業人才延攬及僱用法好了，我們要邀請更多外國優秀人才來到臺灣，而將來在立法院可以要求他來的時候，如果他沒有來或者是沒有照實提供，有可能罰一萬以上、十萬以下的罰鍰，甚至連續罰，對於延攬外國專業人才，這樣子會不會產生另外一種負面的壓力？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：報告委員，麻煩再說一次，我剛才有點失神。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果藐視國會法通過的話，外國專業人才要來到臺灣的時候，他有可能被立法院要求要來做說明或調查，可能會處以一萬以上、十萬以下的罰鍰，而且連續罰，這樣會不會影響到外國人來到臺灣的意願？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我不知道外國相關的這些移民法規裡面有沒有涉及到，因為我不知道國會藐視法裡面是不是規定只有取得國民的這些資格才可以來，還是它的條件是怎麼樣……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們看香港的狀況，香港整個做了一些限縮之後，其實不只外資逃，連很多人員也都離開了，因為它限制了，當國會用這麼強的一個強度去約束人民，我要求你要來做一些說明跟調查的時候，如果你不來或者什麼的話，我會對你罰鍰，官員是有可能被判三年以下的徒刑，但是人員的話是會被罰鍰，而且連續罰，罰到你來為止，這個不會產生壓力嗎？你認為不會產生壓力嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然我覺得所有人在選擇要不要進入這個國家或是到這個國家工作的時候，他會比較在各國的法令，當然我們的法令應該不能比其他國家更為嚴格。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我要說的是，我們希望延攬更多的優秀人才，甚至希望更多優秀的公務人員不斷在政府內服務的時候，我們在立這些相關的法必須非常謹慎小心，如果沒有很謹慎小心的話，會讓人才視你為畏途，視你這個政府或者視你這個國會是一個具有高度壓力的國會，更何況還有很多不見得看得到的一些手的時候，這個都會影響到臺灣的整個長遠發展，副主委同不同意這樣的看法？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想我同意委員的說法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝你，我們一起努力，希望建構臺灣是一個更穩定而安全的社會。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為時間有限，我來問一下，今天其實王定宇委員提到有關於社會保障的問題，針對外籍人員的社會保障，國發會或者是衛福部的評估是怎麼樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想因為這個法令涉及到社會福利跟服務的提供……"],["賴委員瑞隆：會有大概多少？假如照王定宇委員的通過的話，會有多少的預算要支付？請說明一下。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：衛福部有估算，我們國發會的立場是，如果在政府社會福利沒有財務危機及服務提供沒有問題之下，我們是樂觀其成，可是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們讓衛福部說明一下，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們尊重衛福部的意見。"],["賴委員瑞隆：衛福部說明一下。"],["吳副司長希文：委員好。針對延攬外國專業人才的部分，其實衛福部是抱持希望能夠吸引更多的專業人才，然後以多元包容跟廣納的態度，從這個方向去做考量，不過因為目前這些外國專業人才的眷屬或者是他的子女的部分，如果說他是屬於身心障礙的身分，這個部分的人數目前還沒有辦法做一個精準的掌握，所以這個部分後續我們可能還需要再……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們推估出來大概會有多少的預算？假如照這樣通過，要增加多少預算？"],["吳副司長希文：這個部分因為目前還沒有辦法掌握這些外國專業人才的子女或者是眷屬的身障人口數字，所以這部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：儘速把它推估出來，好不好？這個案子有跟部長做過說明嗎？新上任的部長。"],["吳副司長希文：這個部分我們有跟內部的長官先做過一些討論，其實方向上還是希望朝吸引專業人才能夠在臺工作為目標，希望能夠廣納跟多元包容……"],["賴委員瑞隆：朝這個方向，但是預算怎麼樣來……"],["吳副司長希文：可能還需要再去做精算跟審慎的評估，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，瞭解，謝謝。我想吸引更多專業人才來到臺灣，為我們一起來努力，讓臺灣的經濟、產業更好，這是大家共同的目標，但是有些涉及到財務面的問題的話，也必須要謹慎來思考。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一個問題，旗津的類離島其實我跟高副主委也談過非常多次啦！旗津當時其實是半島，因為高雄港開港之後形成離島，但事實上因為它有過港隧道的關係，所以它永遠沒辦法享受到離島建設條例的優惠，但是因為它在交通上相對還是比較讓人困擾的啦！我認為其實應該有一些類離島的方式給它優惠，不需要去吃到其他離島的一些預算，但是可以用一些政策面上的支持，給當地的居民更好的發展機會，它也是你們地方創生的一個輔導機構嘛！副主委，你們現在整體的規劃方向是怎麼樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就如委員所說的，我們有發文給各個單位，請他們對於旗津這個面向裡面，提供相關的一些規劃，然後黃處長其實也召開過會議了，我想我們接下來會持續就旗津的發展……"],["賴委員瑞隆：副主委，這個講非常久了，請一個月內給我一個比較具體的答復好嗎？因為我覺得這應該是大家可接受的方向啦！它不視為離島，視為類離島的方式，它不吃到離島建設條例的資源等等，但是在有些東西給予一些特殊的放寬或給予一些……讓當地的人才能夠回流，讓當地的居民有更好的發展，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得這是做得到的，一個月內給我一份報告，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，一個月內給委員具體的回應。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝高副主委。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來我們請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,26,22-1","speakers":["邱議瑩","王定宇","羅美玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草\n案」案；三、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1134901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.08159375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.4822187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.806593750000001,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.865343750000001,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.08471875,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.11846875,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.177218750000002,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.754718750000002,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.328468750000003,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.12471875,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.199718750000002,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.98346875,"end":37.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.94471875,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.81784375,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.289718750000006,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.26409375,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.27659375,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.25534375,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.947218750000005,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.166593750000004,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.250968750000006,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.875343750000006,"end":61.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.34221875,"end":67.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.54346875,"end":69.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.48846875000001,"end":79.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.77534375,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.79909375000001,"end":89.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.64596875000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.62034375,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.46409375,"end":90.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":96.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.58971875,"end":106.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.51221875,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.69784375,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.06534375,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.38721875000002,"end":154.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.38659375,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.46221875,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.73596875,"end":181.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.55096875,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.82096875000002,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.03096875,"end":193.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.78971875000002,"end":197.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.62471875,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.41784375,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.86034375000003,"end":227.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.91096875000002,"end":228.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.38346875000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.95659375000002,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.63971875000001,"end":245.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.27971875000003,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.29221875,"end":274.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.28346875,"end":290.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.59721875,"end":293.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.94284375,"end":295.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.23784375,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.73534375,"end":305.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.94534375,"end":324.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.43659375000004,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.00096875,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.65909375,"end":356.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.43096875000003,"end":361.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.22346875,"end":370.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.96471875000003,"end":375.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.20909375,"end":372.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.31034375,"end":372.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.95534375,"end":389.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.11784375,"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謝謝主席請高副主委請高副主委"},{"start":12.074,"end":36.969,"text":"高副主委今天我們處理的是外國專業人才延攬及僱用法那剛剛我看到了前面的委員這個楊秋英委員其實對你的一些答覆有段時間其實並不是很滿意的那你會擔心這樣的答覆狀況不滿意的狀況像未來如果藐視國會法通過了之後會不會影響到你的答詢你會不會擔心觸犯到所謂的藐視國會法"},{"start":39.892,"end":45.896,"text":"你會擔心?會不會擔心?說實話會不會擔心?包括有可能司長、處長甚至科長都可能被叫上來被詢問到,那你聽不聽他們感到擔心?"},{"start":69.552,"end":90.001,"text":"賴瑞隆法如果國會的多數就是認為你賴瑞隆在法律的條文界定裡面認為只要你有賴瑞隆的行為的話他們認定的就是賴瑞隆三年以下有期徒刑我想就我們公務員來說我們會希望這個法會定的更明確而不是讓公務員所以高副主委誠實的回答會不會擔心"},{"start":91.121,"end":94.306,"text":"如果照這樣的話會不會擔心同仁們有擔憂?同仁會不會擔憂你認為?同仁會不會有點擔憂?"},{"start":106.582,"end":106.782,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":131.204,"end":154.583,"text":"我的意思是說在這樣狀況下的話再回來談好了外國專業人才僱用法我們要邀請更多外國優秀人才來到台灣的時候而將來在這樣的一個立法院可以要求他來的時候如果他沒有來或者是沒有照實來提供有可能罰一萬以上十萬以下的罰還甚至連續罰對於延攬外國專業人才這樣子會不會產生另外一種負面的壓力會不會"},{"start":156.83,"end":180.503,"text":"發言委員麻煩再說一次我剛剛有點失聲就是說如果這個藐視國會法通過了啦齁通過以後的話外國專業人才要來到台灣的時候齁他有可能在被立法院要求要來做說明或來調查的時候沒有的時候或者是有相關可能被處以一萬以上十萬以下的罰環而且連續罰這樣會不會影響到外國人來到台灣的一個意願會不會"},{"start":182.646,"end":182.967,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":197.486,"end":220.882,"text":"我們看香港的狀況嘛,香港整個是做了一些限縮之後,其實不只外資討嘛,連外很多人員也都離開了嘛,因為他限制。當國會用這麼強的一個強度去約束人民,我要求你要來做一些說明跟調查的時候,如果你不來或者什麼的話,我會給你罰還。官員是有可能被犯三零下徒刑,但是這個人員的話是會被罰還,而且連續罰,罰到你來為止。這個會不會產生壓力嗎?你認為不會產生壓力嗎?"},{"start":227.906,"end":228.486,"text":"所以我說的說是"},{"start":247.071,"end":248.052,"text":"副主委同不同意這樣的看法?"},{"start":272.504,"end":272.825,"text":"國發會或世衛服務評估"},{"start":291.91,"end":319.844,"text":"我想因為這個法令涉及到那個社會那個福利跟服務的提供會有大概多少如果假如照王定宇委員通過會有多少的預算要支付的我想衛福部有估算啦那我們國防會的立場是如果在政府就是說社會福利沒有財務的危機還有這個服務提供沒有問題之下呢我們是樂觀其成可是呢至於"},{"start":320.384,"end":324.826,"text":"那衛福部說明一下好嗎?對,我們尊重衛福部的意見。來,衛福部說明一下。是,委員好。那其實在針對攬才、外國專業人才的這個部分,其實衛福部是保持我們希望能夠吸引更多的專業人才,然後跟多元包容跟廣納的這個態度。"},{"start":339.844,"end":340.044,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":361.203,"end":362.124,"text":"那這個案子有跟部長做過說明嗎?新上任部長?"},{"start":376.181,"end":376.221,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":401.819,"end":427.69,"text":"臺灣來為就是為我們的一起來努力讓臺灣的經濟讓臺灣產業更好這是大家共同目標但是有些涉及到財務面的問題的話也必須要乘勝來思考好謝謝最後一個問題齊晶的類離島其實我跟高副主委也談過非常多次因為齊晶當時的時候其實他是半島但是是因為高雄港開港之後形成離島但事實上因為他有過港隧道關係所以他永遠沒辦法享受到離島建設條例的優惠"},{"start":428.971,"end":431.932,"text":"賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":455.595,"end":455.835,"text":"賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":473.575,"end":475.196,"text":"市長,這個講非常久了,請一個月內給我一個比較具體的一個答覆好嗎?因為我覺得"},{"start":489.62,"end":489.86,"text":"賴瑞隆委員"}]}},{"id":"152764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3a9dfb5b75808eaf42979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d201796df9c99f5bcb2025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:03:06 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你的立場會盡速督促"},{"start":191.322,"end":218.82,"text":"這個行政院趕快送到不敢督促我們是不敢督促因為我們已經送到行政院是審議那我想我們法務部你剛才講了我不敢督促你又彎下去我又緊張了啊這個不是我對你期待很高耶這個用詞不是督促好那你請請行政院我們也是做在加速的一個立法的一個考察好那會不會加速這個一定會加速的啊會加速有沒有進度"},{"start":219.681,"end":220.866,"text":"小姐你現在報告進度嗎?要問一下幹嘛?"},{"start":226.634,"end":251.761,"text":"部長,你不用緊張,你部長的能力非常好來,部長,我們已經討論接避責保護法在立法院立法委員的提案就已經在上個禮拜就已經在司法委員會審查那我們行政院吧,我們在等所以,你會請,請對,我會請好,你會請行政院盡速來那個加速的審查加速審查趕快送,所以行政院還沒審查嗎?"},{"start":252.799,"end":253.599,"text":"越打越炸檢察官在第一線累垮了檢察官"},{"start":285.12,"end":304.291,"text":"案件這麼多所以政府也看到這個問題成立了國家打詐隊打詐司法但是你身為檢察長到現在你身為部長在你檢察長任內我們的數字告訴你2019年兩萬三千零五十事件越打越詐2023年數字會講話"},{"start":310.758,"end":327.992,"text":"三千七百九十八三萬七千九百八十四件金額民眾黨被騙的四十多億一直到將近九十億這是險性隱性的還看不到還更多也裂垮了我們檢查系統法官那這怎麼辦到目前為止這怎麼辦國家人民已經面臨到這樣子的危機"},{"start":339.775,"end":361.93,"text":"每個人心很害怕我電話到底接不接訊息我到底看不看看不看哇 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