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個相關的規範那這個計畫會繼續推動到明年底"},{"start":2352.048,"end":2370.12,"text":"另外評估中央政府總原額法是我需要調整那這部分我們在過去已經有做適當的調整那未來如果各原額上限有需要調整的話我們會依照中央政府總原額法的相關規定來進行原額上的調整那另外比照護理師模式來研議警消的勤務加急部分"},{"start":2370.6,"end":2382.006,"text":"那因為這兩者之間事實上在不管他的目的跟本質與或所不同但是我們考慮到警消的工作特殊性我們在去年7月1號開始就已經對於那個警勤勤務加給調整15%每月加花7000到9700塊左右那這個部分因為涉及到"},{"start":2388.149,"end":2414.107,"text":"我們不只是警消人員有輪班人員還有其他公務員那所涉及的預算相當的規模那因此未來再處理這事我們會在省政評估跟財主單位來一起來省政來作為一個評估那本總署各項施政計畫都有一個相關的規定在推動那也請各位委員能夠支持解凍案以上報告報告完畢謝謝進行指教好謝謝法案部分的口頭報告請法務部徐次長報告"},{"start":2423.499,"end":2443.189,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就行政院函請審議洗錢防治法修正草案議案提出報告並被質詢僅提供本部意見如下敬請指教一、前言即行政院函請審議洗錢防治法修正草案案"},{"start":2444.309,"end":2468.3,"text":"針對亞太防治洗錢組織第三輪互相評鑒就我國洗錢防治法面指出缺點跟建議為落實我國風險為基礎之洗錢防治措施本部就我國常見洗錢犯罪類型及新興洗錢犯罪手法因應現行實務對洗錢犯罪構成要件之適用爭議擬拒洗錢防治法修正草案"},{"start":2468.84,"end":2489.442,"text":"修正洗錢定義洗錢犯罪是過程要件及刑度並增訂提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付等事業或人員未登記卻在境內提供服務之刑責利用此二類帳戶犯洗錢法之處罰以及在刑事政策面以洗錢規模區分不同"},{"start":2490.063,"end":2515.051,"text":"行動提高法人的罰金行動、沒收擴大範圍並徵定偵辦洗錢犯罪控制下交付機制及為鼓勵自身及自首減輕或免除其刑,促使洗錢防制法符合國際規範並有效提升我國執法的效能。第二本部對於各法案之意見"},{"start":2515.891,"end":2540.686,"text":"一（有關於台灣民眾黨黨團及黃珊珊黃國昌委員所拟據洗錢防制法第10條之一議定信託規定與行政院函請審議版大致相同那12條及12條之一有關海關部分比第21條互惠原則21條之一控制下交付等規定與行政院函請審議版本相同本部禁表贊成"},{"start":2542.657,"end":2547.344,"text":"黨及黃先生等委員3人及郭國文等委員16人所提議草案第5條修正用於高風險業進行洗錢防制登記等"},{"start":2558.141,"end":2578.863,"text":"部分行政院版本草案以修正虛擬資產業者用語以FATF建議一致。升定指定範圍包含達一定金額以上交易應使用現金以外的支付工具,又第三方支付行業已於11年"},{"start":2581.041,"end":2602.066,"text":"經行政院指定為本條第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員第三有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊等委員三人所提草案第五條之一第五條之二及郭國文等委員十六人所提草案第六條之一對虛擬資產第三方支付等服務業線上遊戲或遊戲點數等高風險"},{"start":2605.507,"end":2629.38,"text":"高洗錢風險業者之規範部分本部意見為若要採登記至納管因涉及登記申請及相關流程已由該業別之主管機關先建立制度而高洗錢風險業別之業者與境內提供有關本業服務故應受規範然若涉及本業以外之業務內容例如廣告"},{"start":2631.941,"end":2640.569,"text":"業務招攬並非國際規範要求防制洗錢納管範圍且法律﹐法制面以循其他法規處理。"},{"start":2642.588,"end":2663.167,"text":"第四（有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊黃國昌委員所提草案及其他條文本部意見如下第二條洗錢定義掩護行洗錢犯罪細參考德國刑法261條規定一定性為抽象危險犯第二那第三條特定犯罪呢"},{"start":2664.007,"end":2688.287,"text":"據高洗錢風險之犯罪類型（均已納入第三（第7條之一本部建制平台部分本部目前已有機制可以完全辦理且均有在進行第11條洗錢或滋恐高風險國家地區定義現行條文更具彈性第5、14一般洗錢罪部分貴黨團及委員提案是否"},{"start":2688.927,"end":2707.451,"text":"符合罪責級距建請再酌。第六、第15條特殊洗錢法部分將以收入顯不相當列為犯罪過程要件之一恐造成婦人致死排除成立犯罪可能性的不公平現象。第七、15條之一人頭帳戶帳號之規定貴黨團及委員提"},{"start":2712.512,"end":2739.92,"text":"提案恐混淆勒該規範與幫助詐欺幫助洗錢罪嫌的區別第8那第16條提高法人罰金倍數及自首減免刑責部分所適用的條文範圍均請在座那第9是第17條免除保密義務部分現行法第9條第10條第2項已有明文那又金融機構或"},{"start":2742.903,"end":2757.619,"text":"指定非金融機構應確實落實客戶禁止調查。第十（第18條末收範圍擴大部分所適用法條的範圍建請在座結語。行政院已於"},{"start":2759.061,"end":2787.439,"text":"113年5月9號通過《洗錢防制法修正草案》案該法案兼顧我國國情及國際規範為我國打擊信心、詐欺、洗錢等犯罪及面對APG第4輪相互評鑒時可再創佳績的重要武器其能於本會期完成修法以展現政府遏制不法促使金融透明以接軌國際之決心以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2792.225,"end":2798.592,"text":"好那麼其餘機關報告請參院素面機關代表報告完畢相關素面報告內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":2801.349,"end":2820.19,"text":"現在機關報告已進行完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記請登記第一位省委員發會發言"},{"start":2838.714,"end":2850.58,"text":"主席,我們是請法務部次長。請法務部次長。謝主席,委員早。席次長早。"},{"start":2852.424,"end":2873.645,"text":"我想今天我們委員會以很快的速度來安排大家目前民間大家最關心的有關於行政院所推出的打詐司法其中的最重要一個清源的防制機制,這是我們的洗錢防制法"},{"start":2876.294,"end":2894.167,"text":"這個我們行政院通過這個打詐司法一般現在我們要讓民眾知道就是說這個在目前的法治基礎之下我們所進行的這個這個對於打擊這個這個詐騙的這樣子的決心因此我們在司法裡面大概"},{"start":2895.325,"end":2924.873,"text":"除了這個扎西犯罪防治條例齁就這樣子的一個一個清源的防治之外另外針對就通訊的部分資通的部分有關於這個通訊保障及監察法還有科技偵查及保障法那接下來最重要的這個清源這剛剛講的是下游的啦齁下游的溯源那就是這個清源真正清源的是我們洗錢防治法啦齁洗錢防治法這個部分我們如果在洗錢防就洗錢防治法目前的這些相關的漏洞我們必須要把它補足沒有補足的話"},{"start":2925.592,"end":2942.435,"text":"我們現在所有所進行的這些打擊詐騙事實上都在這個部分會有問題剛才我也聽市長報告我們這次整個洗錢防制法整個修正的重點"},{"start":2943.871,"end":2961.929,"text":"我看大概就是一個是第六條的修正就是有關相關的這些入刑化就是把這個虛擬資產服務跟第三方支付的服務如果這個未完成法徵登記或者是這個第三方支付沒有完成能量登錄的話"},{"start":2962.97,"end":2991.677,"text":"還有這個境外公司必須要落地落地登記否則的話如果沒有完成這個而執行相關業務我們就入刑化對不對是再來大概就是第20條的這個新增特殊的這個洗錢犯罪的太陽有關虛擬資產帳號第三方支付者的犯罪工具我們也在也訂定這個相關的這個洗錢太陽的規範"},{"start":2993.683,"end":3017.451,"text":"那這個我大概但是因為齁雖然這個這個法規洗錢防制是由法務部主管但是事實上我們我們發現說在這一次的修訂修正上面事實上業務的重點事實上一個在金管會一個在訴法部啦真正真正要執行這個對不對市長我們目前目前這個這個大概大概一個一個有關這個這個"},{"start":3022.075,"end":3039.886,"text":"虛擬資產的部分應該是由金管會來主管第三方支付是由訴發部來主管所以這些部分我想整個大方向整個我們修法大方向我基本上是非常支持的因為這目前確實是一個洗錢防制的一個大漏洞"},{"start":3040.953,"end":3058.206,"text":"但是實際上在我們來看目前的這個修法我是覺得還有幾個問題還有一些問題齁除了這個法條我們今天所修正的之外齁還有幾個有關於這個包括現況業界的現況這不是你們主管但是有關的相關的要定定的有一些相關辦法齁"},{"start":3059.367,"end":3076.486,"text":"這部分可能要責成法務部來請相關的這些主管單位要禁訴因為我們這個法有很多都在法律裡面授權授權各相關主管他們要去定立執法只有這些執法完成這個整個洗錢防制它的這個法律架構才會完善那這個這個"},{"start":3082.281,"end":3097.202,"text":"我現在就目前的這個修法第6條的這個第一項後段的部分有關境外公司的這個落地問題這部分我個人是對於現在目前這個我們的法條上面有一些不太明瞭的地方來就交次長"},{"start":3098.649,"end":3119.646,"text":"目前我們這個規定按照這個第6條第一項的這個後段近外設立的這個提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務事業人員非依公司法辦理公司或者分公司的登記然後完成洗錢防制的這個法遵聲明或者是這個這個第三方支付的服務能量登錄要完成這個否則不得在國內提供虛擬資產服務"},{"start":3127.023,"end":3150.272,"text":"這個是我們的要件但是我們法律效果定在這個第四項所以說違反第一項是規定除兩年以下有歧途刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣500萬以下的罰金市長那他如果這些外國這些在境外設立的這些公司他在台灣如果沒有登記沒有登錄"},{"start":3151.653,"end":3179.233,"text":"然後他執行相關的業務他公司跟公司都沒有落地那我們要怎麼樣對他來執行這個第6條第4款之規定呢我們還是會處罰行為人因為他還沒有做公司登記那今天他在我們中華民國境內有這些違法的行為不至於說沒有人在這裡有所以我們行為人責任無法如果在網路上面呢"},{"start":3181.676,"end":3183.278,"text":"網路上的話目前我們說你一定要在台灣落地才能夠執行但是他就是沒有登記沒有落地啊"},{"start":3194.335,"end":3221.38,"text":"那我們對這個公司我們有管轄權嗎?現在經管會對於特許行業相關法定規定並沒有針對未經經管會許可的境外業者在我國境內提供相關活動的定義跟禁止規定所以我現在就針對這個我們現在要修正的第6條的後段這個境外設立公司沒有辦理落地的我們要怎麼處罰他?"},{"start":3223.925,"end":3244.991,"text":"如果...呃...處罰誰?怎麼處罰?我們這個第6條第4項的這個法律效果要怎麼樣?我剛才有特別聽到說如果他人是有來境內阿如果沒有呢?這個...這個就變成一個是一個事實的問題我們...對所以這就是一個漏洞啊?呃..."},{"start":3247.576,"end":3271.92,"text":"所以例如說例如說我們在相關的法律效果上面我們應該在網路上我們能夠去遮蔽或者去禁止禁止報告委員這個是另外一個法律的問題就是我們是用遮蔽的或把它下架的那是防止他犯罪所做的跟這一個又不太一樣因為我看這一條我就是有這個疑問就是說你要怎麼樣來"},{"start":3276.462,"end":3286.388,"text":"來對這個境外公司進行法律效果是是好這部分請法務部這邊研議啦那我現在要請這個這個經管會經管會跟這個書法部來請經管會跟書法部好這個次長你先請回動作快一點委員好沒關係再講一分鐘好"},{"start":3307.333,"end":3331.927,"text":"目前我先請教金管會有關目前虛擬資產的部分交易平台目前通貨平台業者有幾家目前就是完成法專聲明的業者一共有25家25家都已經完成法專聲明"},{"start":3336.201,"end":3357.573,"text":"這個沒有完成還沒有完成法律聲明的有多少這部分我們沒有詳細的統計但是跟我們申請的境外業者目前境外業者在台灣有在執行業務的幾家目前我們查獲是有7家有廣告招攬的行為有7家有廣告招攬的行為個人避傷的部分呢我們目前怎麼樣管制"},{"start":3359.212,"end":3386.034,"text":"個人 B商的部分目前如果按照現有的法制那他們還是必須要去按照這個營業登記法跟這個那個稅籍登記的部分去做登記目前這個虛擬資產的虛擬資產管理的部分我們是還沒有虛擬資產管理的專法那這部分我目前我看是我們是是依照這個十大原則對不對"},{"start":3387.677,"end":3403.374,"text":"對我們有定一個指導原則我定一個這個指導原則啦十大指導原則啦齁好那我現在請問速發部剛才是這個虛擬資產的部分啦齁那第三方支付的部分是速發部管嘛對不對第三方支付目前"},{"start":3404.67,"end":3428.847,"text":"以你們司法部的了解經濟部目前有辦理這個公司登記他們公司登記的業務有包括第三方支付的有幾家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家這一萬四千多家裡面這個這個實收資本額是零的有幾家你們會不會了解這我們要查一下有八千多家啦"},{"start":3430.114,"end":3442.566,"text":"他公司登記都有這個第三方支付但他根本就沒有在執行第三方支付業務有8000多家目前實際上進行第三方支付的業者服務業的這些公司行號其實不到100家不到100家"},{"start":3445.506,"end":3457.974,"text":"到目前為止這不到100家已經業者有申請要能量登錄的有幾家?有81家有81家是不是?81家現在每天的付款年日平均額超過10億元的有幾家?"},{"start":3475.744,"end":3494.649,"text":"七家有七家七家這個這個七家他就事實上就就有金就納入有金管會來不是21以上才會有金管會21以上對21以上必須要納入這個有金管會金管會來來來來這個納管那這個好這個有"},{"start":3500.882,"end":3525.842,"text":"有關這個虛擬資產齁跟我們這個第三方支付的這個部分齁我看到我們這個目前這個提這個有關這個齁我先再請金管會啦齁這個我們現在今天修法的齁第6條第二項我們提有有規定說提供虛擬資產服務之事業事業或人員齁辦理前項的前項的洗錢防制"},{"start":3526.994,"end":3546.916,"text":"登記的這個申請條件齁程序或撤銷費值他有有關的相關辦法包括這個這個洗錢防制登記的申請條件程序撤銷費值或者還有包括這個這個虛擬資產上下架這些應遵刑事辦法由中央事業"},{"start":3548.673,"end":3574.375,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關定資。中央目的主管機關是誰?就金管會。就金管會。對。我們目前這個進度我們依照這第6條第6條第二項我們就是要必定相關辦法嗎?對。目前有沒有相關辦法?我們已經做偶爾研究。那我們可以在這個我們這個授權的這個條文通過之後我們可以在6個月之內按照法制作業完成。"},{"start":3576.807,"end":3592.856,"text":"這個目前我現在看到的是剛剛講的十大原則目前是用行政指導在做啦這個位階實在是太低你們盡快按照這個第六條第二項你們這個相關的辦法應該要盡快來擬定啦盡快來擬定這個然後這個虛擬資產的這個專法你們預計什麼時候"},{"start":3599.606,"end":3614.114,"text":"預計什麼時候會裝專法?我們從剛剛講的這些相關的辦法現在從行政指導原則相關的辦法到真正的最終的處理方式還是必須應該要有相關的專法你們大概什麼時候會完成?"},{"start":3614.788,"end":3634.421,"text":"報告委員專訪我們也已經委外研究我們在9月份9月底之前會提出我們的這個9月底會提出的初稿初稿那什麼時候你們預計什麼時候要這個這個這個送出草案我們在年底會完成那個就是正式委外的正式報告那至於那個年底完成了還是報告"},{"start":3635.522,"end":3658.111,"text":"對,但是如果說是專法的部分昨天我們彭主委有在會有答詢是在會在明年提出來明年提出來啦對因為我們相關的我們這些有關的這個這個這個我們整個打詐的系統包括洗錢防制包括虛擬資產的管理這個整個都是配套的啦這絕對不是只有法務部的責任啦好不好好以上謝謝委員好謝謝沈委員接下來請謝委員隆介發言"},{"start":3678.698,"end":3687.185,"text":"主席,我請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長,請問老闆我請教你我們這個昭榮齁都有站一些警察啦齁"},{"start":3699.417,"end":3718.186,"text":"啊、二、三、六、六、七都有那麼我看委員啊、官員啊、立法院有人說他們都會站在清安門口啊、可是在這裡如果是主席要來開會、要來主持會議啊、在外面有人跟他作動啊、我們這警察這樣給他委託讓他進入這個會議廳輸我們的主席可以進入會議廳來讓會議順利進行"},{"start":3728.605,"end":3750.421,"text":"這樣有算你們動用檢察權嗎?沒有。這個大概要這樣說明啦。會場跟議場,以院會來說,因為議場裡面有第二條規定是會場。那會場才有動用警察權的一個概念啦。那一個議場裡面它有議場的管理啦。是這樣的一個概念。"},{"start":3751.331,"end":3772.675,"text":"所以在主席若要入來開會,警察跟維護給他安全,進入這個議事廳裡面,這樣不算動用警察權?沒有,在我的概念上是...如果這樣在立法院議會裡面,維護議長進入議場,我沒看到警察入來議事廳裡面嘛"},{"start":3778.322,"end":3803.571,"text":"如果這樣委託議長議長進入議長裡面這樣會不會算動用警察權?這位外政可能有點誤會了那是會場我們對警察的動用就是因為這一個警察人動用是不能影響到委員行使職權那職權的行使裡面的一個概念是這樣而已這樣感謝你因為這是有人誤解說韓議長"},{"start":3808.917,"end":3830.644,"text":"動用警察款來這樣解說就很清楚。第二有人說為什麼要走手來做標革本身在現場有看的但我沒有錄影結果有其他的東林錄影就看到有民進黨的委員把我們的標革卡丟掉了"},{"start":3835.201,"end":3862.512,"text":"當然,這樣會影響到表格的進行嗎?會啦,但是這個我未必在會裡面說完啦。不過這一個會影響到這一個表決的一個處理。齁,所以若是譬如說在此開會,我如果去跟民進黨的委員的特定那張表格卡我把它抽掉,我人總要照出來,這樣他就沒辦法表格了嘛。"},{"start":3863.206,"end":3871.728,"text":"我如果抽5張,他們就選5個可以去洗啊,這樣就做成糾紛了,是不是?會做會長,這樣好了。好,感謝你。主席,我現在請法務部跟這個金管會。好,來,法務部金管會請。"},{"start":3884.508,"end":3895.59,"text":"保證、促證請教你委員長我們這個修法的目的其實洗錢的過程中是進階是要封地詐騙是啊你過去數年在這個洗錢裡面你知道有多少是透過世界的膠囊洗錢的比率這麼多報告員"},{"start":3912.958,"end":3937.663,"text":"沒有沒有沒有這方面的資料。禁官會阿?沒有。包委我們也沒有這方面資料。喔,這樣你們在修法的過程,這科入料就比較少了。你們簡單看全世界這麼多casino 裡面,包括地下的,很多洗錢就是這樣來的啊。"},{"start":3939.508,"end":3965.917,"text":"除了應該你們都有聽到還是有什麼沒要這要做一個統計我本身認為說要有一個統計啦我報委員有所謂的犯罪黑數齁就是說你可能在民間有很多朋友提供你資訊但是我們是以查到來作為我問說你過去查到洗錢的這個案件裡面在交通查到的比率降幾%啦這個"},{"start":3971.743,"end":3987.752,"text":"我們只有統計詐欺的那個數額沒有說對他的手法來做分析這這樣沒辦法打到七成啦我告訴你所有的詐騙本身喔接觸到很多人認證你覺得怎麼樣?我們詐騙有一個專項叫165嘛對不對?是一直廢掉啊我個人接到就久了耶"},{"start":4000.476,"end":4003.639,"text":"一回去了,感覺可能被騙了,打去165165說,他說我現在回去找一個帳號,我回去這個口罩拜託給我凍起來165跟我說,你要先去報警,你要報警之後我可以給你凍,處長是不是這樣?"},{"start":4026.868,"end":4037.991,"text":"這個部份作業的手續是內政部主政?沒有啦,我...啊是不是這樣啦?什麼人煮飯,這不是看...這個人的問題啦,我想問是不是這樣嘛?現在沒有一個說受騙的人去醫療房,他就可以動帳號啦,你要去完成報案報案了喔"},{"start":4052.216,"end":4069.152,"text":"因為警方通緝,他才會把這個帳號凍結,我說的意思你聽得到嗎?我知道,這是明確性的問題啦。好,來。所以我說修法的規定,要把金管回來。比較修啦。您過去的統計,這麼多..."},{"start":4072.54,"end":4083.867,"text":"如果10萬件的案件裡面包括警示帳號這樣一張一張一直寫著表示你們有在注意現在已經到10幾萬、11萬幾千、12萬幾千了嘛若是這樣的話所有的罰款、詐騙過去抓到的詐騙、罰款的金額都是多少錢?以上還是以下?"},{"start":4101.963,"end":4103.685,"text":"相關的金價一百塊多少錢呢?是不是倒數都是在三兩百萬以下一齣一齣的款啦倒數"},{"start":4115.054,"end":4137.605,"text":"報告委員因為這個匯款到底詐騙的金額是多少其實還是牽涉到最後警調單位的調查啦那不過一般來說的話那個金融機構如果你是我要跟你講的意思你這樣聽下去就重點了咳嗽我們今天日因為很多人是錢花了啊花錢是一個衝動跟買房子一樣啦"},{"start":4144.608,"end":4147.877,"text":"沉浴沉尿啊,我回去覺得我買尿對啊不對,有到幾無一瞬間而已,一回去,他覺得受詐騙"},{"start":4155.296,"end":4169.183,"text":"他會去報案。有一種是經過認證10分鐘、20分鐘後,他會感覺懷疑,他會開始問朋友,感覺詐騙。可是,若是把這個匯款的作業,很多有人會說這樣,會影響到金融技術啦吼,金融技術的影響到什麼?這條錢匯去,認證期2小時,我講的意思你聽得到嗎?"},{"start":4184.69,"end":4196.213,"text":"這條錢回去之後,對方因為什麼?他都在選對方嘛。有錢進來,他就叫車手去捏嘛。所以錢很快就捏掉了。選擇我8點前後,你給我凍起來,還不會浮啊,他錢已經捏掉了。若是有2點前的冷凍期,我還要保留你的金融特殊。"},{"start":4212.012,"end":4216.015,"text":"怕說影響到人家欠錢,太弱調用了,啊你廢款還要人家凍?"},{"start":4216.015,"end":4221.439,"text":"所以我問你說,廢款詐騙的都是在多少金額?比如說一百塊錢都差不多3百萬、2百萬、50萬、30萬、20萬,不定!這樣你是不是可以抓一個適當的金額以下的廢款,去做一個2小時遭遇的冷凍期啦?"},{"start":4238.356,"end":4248.566,"text":"非婚姻、非料,他感覺歡慰或是他感覺受騙,他可以快速歡迎,我告訴你,這樣可以檢視很多詐騙案件,讓這個態度堆塞。你對這個公法有什麼建議?看法嗎?"},{"start":4258.22,"end":4286.44,"text":"報告委員那個金額應該是多少還有這個冷凍期的問題的話金額的多少我會覺得應該是還是要跟檢調單位去先先瞭解啦這樣我沒有這個意思你有瞭解嗎你都沒有考慮這個戰促因為我們在民間收到很多受害者的金錢嘛所以一直在想要怎麼去突破嘛"},{"start":4288.697,"end":4300.167,"text":"立法院協商也有冷凍機,冷凍後大家會比較冷靜。一小時或兩小時這個時間,還不去應用到我們的金融的特殊及經濟最弱的行為。這是要去共同修復的,因為炸片比較是氾濫到今天"},{"start":4309.875,"end":4327.641,"text":"我告訴你 做差的最危險 我看你們強強要降農財金了所以不管是怎麼修 我們怎麼修他怎麼退便 我們怎麼修他怎麼退便我們腳步如果對應不到 我告訴你 我們的人民的受害越殘忍 越悲哀你覺得 可以對這個方法來考慮嗎 可以延期嗎"},{"start":4337.682,"end":4357.751,"text":"報告委員,我們可以演繹看看啦,因為時間,凍結的時間也不能太久。當然啊,所以我在講,我告訴你,我剛才在講,你沒聽到嗎?一十分鐘、二十分鐘,人家廢料處理才會冷靜啦。人家還沒廢,之前他會很緊張的,就說說想要廢啦。但廢處理後,他就開始冷靜啦。我告訴你,是兩小時還是一小時,我告訴你,這真的有效的。"},{"start":4365.953,"end":4376.42,"text":"真有好辣。您趕快去看看啊。啊有什麼適合我們行的所在。你希望你可以一份說明來給本席及委員會好不好。"},{"start":4379.342,"end":4402.503,"text":"好,這個是不是我們也可以跟那個檢調單位法部一起來?可以啊,沒有主席建議我可以用心了解請那個銀行局一一委員的要求啊那配合法務部將這樣的程序要件納入未來的一個修正內容好不好?是不是另一案?"},{"start":4403.26,"end":4413.762,"text":"我們這個是不是另案報告?另案報告?好啦好啦,好,另案報告。謝謝。好,謝謝謝委員,謝謝次長、局長。接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。謝謝周委員,有請立法院周秘書長。請周秘書長。法務部啊,我們今天法務部誰來?法務部次長。"},{"start":4433.547,"end":4460.182,"text":"徐次長國務部是什麼人徐次長徐次長好啊那個司法院司法院請我們的副廳長副廳長來好三位請民務長教委一度這樣講那個國會警察權的部分我希望你能夠再講清楚啦如果我沒有誤解的話我覺得你講的是完全錯了國會警察權規定在哪一個法律"},{"start":4463.943,"end":4477.901,"text":"呃,對這個長期在立法院是有兩方面在爭辯啦。你們的認知啦,你們的認知啦,你認為國會警察權,國會議長可以行使他的警察權,法律預計是什麼?"},{"start":4478.382,"end":4479.643,"text":"是的,我在跟你講說,總要一個依據嘛"},{"start":4503.326,"end":4519.271,"text":"不是說昨晚來今天幹了秘書長或者是韓國瑜幹了院長然後我說沒有沒有沒有這個立法院就是我最大我是院長或秘書長我最大所以我不用跟你們講理由我為了維護秩序我在跟你講的是誰哪一部法律給你這樣的授權啊這本來就院區的一個議場沒有本來啦要行使權利擁有權利總要法律的授權嘛"},{"start":4531.667,"end":4539.008,"text":"沒錯啊沒錯你要告訴我啊哪一部法律啊不要整個哪一部法律"},{"start":4542.154,"end":4551.96,"text":"所以說嘛所以說嘛法就是沒有這樣規定就概念就對啦齁我現在不講警察情報我現在講院長的權利我在講國會警察權國會警察權不會是警察的權利警察是受命"},{"start":4563.82,"end":4576.946,"text":"警察只是受命來我是在講說當你發動國會警察權的時候你現在一直在跟我說為了維護自我為什麼要為了維護秩序我是在跟你講為了維護秩序為什麼是你院長下令啦你的權利來自於哪裡啦沒關係沒關係"},{"start":4583.972,"end":4593.963,"text":"您不能胡說八道一通啊講得有道理就算啊但不能亂講因為這個本來今天不是這個這個探討這個警察警察員探討的範圍啊因為這個長期裡面有一個概念在"},{"start":4602.293,"end":4617.471,"text":"我為警察權的動用...警察權的動用在外界體制你影響到這個委員的職權行使一定是會場裡面的動用警察權的概念那整個一個立法院的..."},{"start":4620.154,"end":4643.02,"text":"就是為什麼我這一個以前為了這個警察人動用跟法治局一直長期不同的概念在所以法治局的概念認為加債權主席就是為了整個一個立法院他會行以加債權的觀念可以動用警察權我個人不認為啊法律固定在什麼地方我個人不認為所以這個在在探討的過程當中我要跟你講的喔是秘書長我就是講"},{"start":4645.2,"end":4662.302,"text":"警察權其實國會議長沒有明文受到法律的授權他只是在講說國會議長要行政中立維護整個醫師的一個進行在我們立法院裡面組織法有啦"},{"start":4663.203,"end":4687.889,"text":"那立法院警察的勤務的規則他當然跟你講說國會議長叫你來連總裁現在召委他都可以召喚那個我們立法院的駐警啊如果外面有人抗爭啊維持委員會的意識境他也可以啊國會警察權談的不是本期在講或這幾天用到的都不是這一些啦立法委員跟立法委員之間國會自主如何來運作這一塊國會自己處理"},{"start":4693.644,"end":4703.613,"text":"這外面哪怕是行政院或者是警政署長跟你作案來多好啊跟韓國瑜多好他們都不能進來他們是不能進來的喔他有那個什麼我警察接受你國會議長的指揮哪一條"},{"start":4713.993,"end":4740.854,"text":"也沒有啊所謂的警察權是在維持秩序啦那維持秩序到底要有哪些種方式那是剛好你國會有駐警就像你講的那個只是一個概念一個法治國家為什麼沒有辦法把它做明文你知道嗎我們怕被攻擊啦任何人執政任何人在立法院多數都不敢把那個法律明文去授權"},{"start":4741.795,"end":4752.107,"text":"如果立法院組織法裡面你就把它規定了國會議長他可以召喚警察來維持國會的秩序那我就跟你說法律有給你這樣授權都沒話講了我們就沒有這樣的法律啊所以我在問你說法律的授權啊趕快給秘書長沒關係這個是一個普通的概念嘛"},{"start":4766.717,"end":4777.371,"text":"因為 呃 我不想再論辯這個概念但因為中文一直要提啦所謂的警察權的動用是我們外界所理的動用警察權是在樂會場裡面為了"},{"start":4780.515,"end":4805.79,"text":"你干預到委員的職權行使這叫動用警察權的概念所以這個我們在論辯為什麼從梁世榮委員一起開始我們一直反對這個概念所以這跟法治局的羅局長完全概念的這一個不一樣所以我才你不用這麼緊張嘛我不是在跟你說不能動用警察權"},{"start":4806.75,"end":4809.353,"text":"或是我現在講的是說動用的審查權會產生爭議那些爭議要怎麼來處理這個爭議就是要授原說誰賦予你這樣的一個權限立法院組織法有沒有授權給你院長有沒有授權給你秘書長我要跟你講的是說沒有所以你才跟我講說"},{"start":4829.751,"end":4848.48,"text":"哎喲那可能是一個家財權的概念吶那是外界的觀念吶我是在跟你正本清源牽扯到委員跟委員之間必須定這人吼不用受騙吶在一個位都不會解雇吶公平我會給你說公平解說就好警察全講的吶其實都是在談"},{"start":4854.292,"end":4868.714,"text":"而非立法委員去干涉到的整個立法院比如說群眾啊或不相干的人啊干涉到立法院的整個議事的一個運作這個時候才有警察權發動議事抗爭的時候啊"},{"start":4870.049,"end":4887.847,"text":"我還沒看到有一個終局定論每一個人都知道啊立法院應該更有秩序啊民主政治大家更應該有素質啊這個大家都知道台灣老百姓都知道但是發動意識抗爭的時候你要動用警察權我就追根究柢來問你了"},{"start":4889.108,"end":4889.809,"text":"那你的權利來源來自於哪裡?"},{"start":4889.809,"end":4890.751,"text":"你的權利來源來自於哪裡?"},{"start":4890.751,"end":4901.707,"text":"你就說沒有嘛,你就說概念而已啊。 你就說沒有嘛,你就說概念而已啊。 你就說概念而已啊。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你不覺得因為你那個立法院的那個警務,警察的一個勤務執行規則裡面,那個哪是法律?"},{"start":4901.707,"end":4902.288,"text":"那不是法律欸。"},{"start":4906.206,"end":4932.485,"text":"可以啊就是因為這一個警察請募規則並不代表我們所說的警察權的動用所說的動用警察權的概念是在會場裡面的這一個動用警察權所以在這個涉及到對委員的實情的行使的一個干預所以我們警察權的動用是"},{"start":4932.965,"end":4954.642,"text":"這一個概念在整個議場以外的...我在跟你講的是說誰可以動用的法律授權來自於哪裡嗎?所以因為沒有法源所以這個...我説明一下因為沒有法源所以從劉松文院長一直到現在包括韓院長在內都不會動用警察權這個警察的概念是這樣來的所以我今天要跟你講的"},{"start":4955.744,"end":4958.472,"text":"我今天要跟你說兩次而已,不是要跟你吵架啦就是說你那個法律的授權第一個沒有啦"},{"start":4964.775,"end":4991.226,"text":"沒有一條法令規定你院長、國會議長授權給你說你有這個警察權所以你就要很迂迴的從過去怎麼樣怎麼樣然後說那個是一個慣例啊怎麼樣甚至你說那個只是一個觀念那個整個立法院的這一些警察、執行勤務我們只是弄一個規則那規則是在規範這些警察那不是你國會議長取有的權限"},{"start":4992.446,"end":5007.057,"text":"我是在跟你講這個,所以我在跟你講你解釋完以後就是說這個其實都會有很大的紛爭了。來啊,可以啊。就是因為我們兩者之間對於警察權的這個概念是不一樣的。不一樣才會產生我們這邊的論辯啦。因為為什麼當時在會場裡面"},{"start":5014.742,"end":5033.515,"text":"警察權不能動用的理念就是因為這個警察勤務規則是沒有呼籲為院長在會場的意思的這一個處理可以動用警察權到這一個會場裡面那其他的警察權當然院長有這個權因為我現在跟你講異常嘛不是異常的我跟你講這個幹什麼站在你後面的都是法學專家啊他們聽起來也愛笑啊"},{"start":5044.378,"end":5064.426,"text":"對不對 你國會自主 你的自主裡面 你說要歸你的警察權的一個動用當然是在議場裡面啊 那議場裡面警察怎麼可以去介入呢每一個政黨有他的預示策略的一個攻防啊 所以我們不要擔心啦 這個議場會場概念不一樣啦 所以我要告訴你就是說 這個都要小心啦"},{"start":5065.543,"end":5082.27,"text":"就像你講的真的沒有法律授權啦但是呢又為了要等個國會自治國會自主的運作要排除其他的那個整個秩序維護整個秩序那個都是在講外部去干擾到這個議場裡面的意識運作啦其他其實齁都叫做國會自律啦啊搞不好若不修國紀不可以懲戒這樣說"},{"start":5093.444,"end":5098.749,"text":"沒給你漏氣啦,是你說的不清楚,我要給你追問比較清楚一點。法制上"},{"start":5100.268,"end":5109.152,"text":"法治上確實就是沒有授予在議場裏面 不敢指導我這對年紀比我大一歲我沒有很客氣不可以 老闆抱歉我問阿伯兩句話就好起來我也要針對議題 民主黨請回啦我現在就請 這也要金管會的 這叫你們倆的啦 比較沒意思的 我現在這樣講我們今天早晚這樣安排這個 我相信"},{"start":5128.098,"end":5154.12,"text":"這個其實大家社會大眾去講到的整個虛擬的一個交易的數量越來越多啦我們就擔心的就是這些黑錢洗到最後變白錢我們要溯源嘛我很擔心的就是說你們我聽完以後啊跟金管會以及我們這個虛擬交易所的一個合作幾乎是有沒有說是零嘛"},{"start":5155.433,"end":5174.797,"text":"我們今天要審這部法律你這樣叫趙薇要怎麼審呢?我如果一個人幫下去我們跟外部的合作那這個部分我們如何去做一個加強儘管會是一樣啦儘管你不能給大家都發一些新聞行政指導以後叫人家不要受騙就好啊推動業界去自律啊這些人都不自律的你給人家要自律"},{"start":5176.594,"end":5193.013,"text":"現在台高姐已經跟四大虛擬貨幣交易所已經有建立平台那也預計有再繼續跟8家接洽所以我們是要跟業者要充分的合作這個我很擔心你說只跟我們內部我們台灣還是不夠啦"},{"start":5198.334,"end":5214.926,"text":"這個交易平台就那麼多了你看虛假的也那麼多了我們現在來看的話金管會裡面幾乎我每一次看到的就是投資人對你的投資的後果要自己去負責然後對於整個幣安以外的境外的投資的一個平台"},{"start":5215.726,"end":5234.866,"text":"要用什麼樣的一個合作的模式本期很擔心的就是一個漏洞我們有把相關的資料也提給國外交易所請他們來回覆我們真的是做得不夠的地方在我們今天的修法之前我們還沒有看到你們有多大的"},{"start":5235.607,"end":5255.162,"text":"這一些相關的配套你們做得起來還有你們運行到現在你們的成效是怎麼樣因為金額還是那麼大這個部分真的要加強好不好是是好謝謝委員好謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢那接下來我們邀請莊嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":5268.547,"end":5284.656,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請...沒關係,等下有請立法院州秘書長以及司法院代表請陳副廳長那請州秘書長及陳...陳廳長"},{"start":5297.265,"end":5312.903,"text":"司法院副廳長陳副廳長中委員好副廳長好來先請教司法院代表當我們立法過程有核限性爭議的解決途徑是什麼如果立法有核限性爭議"},{"start":5314.586,"end":5341.394,"text":"合憲爭議的話應該就是申請釋憲好申請釋憲好我們看一下齁過去我們是根據司法院大法官審理案件法第5條那現在是根據憲法訴訟法第49條這個案例這4至第603號呢當年有立法委員賴清德人85人申請齁那當中呢一憲是規定要有四十四分之以上就行使職權在法律未接法規範抵觸憲法者呢來申請憲法法院是不是這樣"},{"start":5342.469,"end":5343.009,"text":"憲法官第1476會議不受理,必須行使職權並投票反對。"},{"start":5366.67,"end":5387.285,"text":"請問司法院代表是不是認同這個決議的內容不受理的決議他所具名的行使之權要投票反對你認同嗎這是大法官的會議決議你認為有沒有拘束力我們尊重大法官的說法是的好來請民主黨行使之權就要出席嘛那投票反對才符合申請事先的資格你同意嗎"},{"start":5388.577,"end":5412.426,"text":"欸這一個尊重委員的對對不是啊這是不是那就是司法大法官的會議嘛我沒辦法對於這一個大法官你是尊重大法官的說明嘛不是尊重本席的嘛大法官就要決議了嘛因為他們有做這個決議因為不是這一個不是是視線裡面的對他是決議的內容好來我們看一下齁下一項才在做這些決議的對不受理如果你沒有這兩個要求不受理嘛不是這樣寫法是"},{"start":5413.226,"end":5440.569,"text":"太過千...如果不符合如果沒有這兩個案就不符合應該這樣寫才對往下看好來這是1476號上面的不決議有38位立法委員這是在107年的時候他因為前瞻條例認為韋先生你當然解釋後來有沒有通過我們看一下為什麼不同意呢不同意的決議的附件三大法官根據會議公報判斷哪些委員有出席贊成或反對在當天的議事物當中申請委員38個之一的高金素美委員請假"},{"start":5441.61,"end":5441.89,"text":"民主黨你知道這個過程嗎?你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":5461.155,"end":5462.596,"text":"議員三十八位才符合三分之的資格。為此"},{"start":5482.689,"end":5505.182,"text":"國民黨那時候只有37席他特別提出民進黨也支持喔後來的限數法怎麼樣改成四分之一從三分之一改成四分之一三分之一要38席四分之一就不用了未來讓少數黨可以申請釋憲民進黨支持限數法將申請釋憲從三分之一的門檻降到四分之一你知道是這樣的情況嗎"},{"start":5506.383,"end":5528.023,"text":"我不太瞭解為什麼要這樣來。不過降下來之後是不是37個就可以申請釋憲?這個我不太瞭解。現在降成四分之一,是不是29個就可以申請釋憲?你可以用一、三去算四分之一,但是至於立法院理會是這樣我不太瞭解。你這個算數,我就問你嘛,把三分之一降成四分之一,從37個降現在就是28個,29個,那這是數學問題,你數學不好嗎?"},{"start":5542.013,"end":5563.079,"text":"五月二十一號的舉手表決看照片現場有誰投的反對票有沒有確定誰有在場投票這樣能夠申請釋憲嗎如果有我要申請釋憲因為這一事的過程我未變表示意見未變表示意見那你就這邊現場聽好我們就要看立法院有幾種表決方式這可以講了吧"},{"start":5564.585,"end":5591.878,"text":"跟預示規則有幾種表決方式?有五種嘛來請告訴我有哪幾種不用告訴你來不用你再翻墊齁浪費時間來第一個是不是口頭表決?第二個是舉手表決第三個是點表決器表決第四個是投票表決第五個是點名表決是不是這樣?查到沒有?要不要告訴你第幾頁?沒有錯嘛齁一、二、三、四、五這五種是不是這樣?是啊"},{"start":5594.124,"end":5615.616,"text":"我們來看一下第三種的表決系表決後面我們看到的第一種的口頭表決跟第五種的點名表決他分別口頭表決相當於他不記名嘛口頭表決怎麼知道是誰但是點名表決他就相當於記名嘛那請問舉手表決到底是屬於記名的項目還是不記名的項目"},{"start":5618.615,"end":5631.505,"text":"有沒有辦法去名有沒有達到記名或不記名口頭表決不曉得是誰啊你知道什麼叫口頭表決嗎你要不要示範一下有沒有遇到過口頭表決的情況立法院就你過去所知"},{"start":5632.703,"end":5660.231,"text":"我要這樣說明因為你是專家因為口頭表決的概念在你告訴我現場怎麼口頭表決我告訴你啦你聽我講啦贊成請說贊成贊成反對請說反對我聽聲音大的聲的喔贊成多於反對贊成不要大聲叫口頭表決口頭表決是沒有辦法具名的舉手表決可以點數對不對好來往下看舉手表決呢你意識人員如何表決"},{"start":5661.906,"end":5691.386,"text":"你們點出53人吶可能有其他政黨的來舉手表決參加支持民進黨的哪兩個我也不清楚再往下看立法院執行司法第6條出席委員過半數是同一刑之是不是出席委員過半數嘛對不對那你如果確定出席委員過半數先確定有多少人出席110人出席過半數就是56100人出席過半數就是51對不對是不是這樣子事先講出來啊是不是不要點頭而已是不是"},{"start":5692.503,"end":5721.809,"text":"好來我們第36條議事規則表決因應可否兩方依次行之要先問可的贊成的請舉手反對的請舉手本席在主持司法法制也是一樣現場除主席之外11人贊成的請舉手6人反對的請舉手5人贊成多於反對是不是這樣子好來委員會好那很好委員會裡面呢因為沒有表決器所以我們可以現場判斷來請看下一個我們議會是不是用表決器"},{"start":5723.686,"end":5729.741,"text":"是不是用表決器你看一下是不是用表決器表決器上有出席黃色棄權紅色的是反對綠色的是什麼是贊成"},{"start":5732.554,"end":5762.054,"text":"每位委員必須簽到院會當天簽到才能領卡必須人在裡面才能插卡插了卡你才能按出席你不按出席那個白鈕你不能顯示你是反對還是贊成一旦你按了出席你就記錄了出席人數了你按了贊成就顯示綠燈按了紅色就顯紅燈所以我們用表決器按兩個鈕最後出來的結果出席人數有贊成多少人反對多少人一清二楚還有名字是不是這樣子"},{"start":5763.314,"end":5783.122,"text":"所以表決器是不是記名表決?我不說你當天,我問你現在表決器是不是記名表決?我問你嘛,現在表決器是不是屬於一種記名表決?是不是很清楚?清不清楚?我問你這樣清不清楚嘛?那你示範給我看不記名表決表決器怎麼會示範不記名表決器可以用記名的,也可以不記名"},{"start":5790.084,"end":5803.17,"text":"民主黨我先問你吼來立法院執行新司法我們有投票表決有沒有有6種投票表決是不是你有告訴我我們立法院投票表決依照執行下來有6種"},{"start":5804.568,"end":5822.865,"text":"對不對?有不信任?六種情況。不信任案。復議案。緊急命令。彈劾。罷免。人事同意權。有六種是要記,三種是記名,三種不記名。那是投票。記名的投票選票上有你的名字。不記名的投票票上沒有你的名字。這樣往下一頁。"},{"start":5824.667,"end":5836.723,"text":"好我們看看公報記載的贊成反對跟棄權名單立法院的法案表決都會出現這個名單請問一下上週五跟本週二的最後的立法院公報會出現這個贊成反對的名單嗎"},{"start":5838.997,"end":5845.982,"text":"我要這樣說明因為你這樣的我沒辦法答覆你因為舉手表決方式主席在採用的狀況不管公報會不會有記錄誰贊成誰反對在長期裡面的例裡面都有舉手表決的方式在我先問你舉手表決的結果會不會在公報上有贊成跟反對的兩種名字出現因為舉手表決跟表決期的記名表決當然會不一樣"},{"start":5868.937,"end":5896.984,"text":"這是一定不一樣的啊那我講一講啊這就是立法院的秘書長在胡說八道的鏡頭啦你們可以去看表決記者可以不進行表決的我現在問你舉手表決可不可以告訴我大會公報記載誰贊成誰反對你怎麼回答這一點舉手表決可不可以當然不行嘛當然不行嘛你如果用舉手表決在立法不能區別贊成跟反對我們未來如何去申請釋憲"},{"start":5902.298,"end":5928.522,"text":"你作為幕僚你沒有讓立法的表決留下贊成跟反對大法官要如何判斷你是出席而且行使之權行使反對回憶記錄也沒有寫誰贊成誰反對啊所以你再看一看要大法官去看圖說話嗎要大法官看著照片勘驗證據哪一位委員是贊成哪一位委員反對嗎還是在喊口號往下看"},{"start":5929.98,"end":5952.526,"text":"我今天要用這個機會我就是要突顯出立法院秘書長在韓院長大會主席主持院會的時候沒有辦法沒有能力來判斷我要告訴你你身為立法院的幕僚長你身為秘書長又稱為號稱是我們的立法院的百科全書我們的百科字典"},{"start":5953.567,"end":5975.475,"text":"你對議事規則嫌熟。請問舉手表決未依可否俱成有效嗎?這是立法院執行司法第6條要同意過半數。你沒有先清等人數不要先110還是100。你舉手的時候怎麼知道?第二要可否併行啊?都沒有進行這樣的程序這樣的表決是無效的。第二"},{"start":5976.215,"end":5993.728,"text":"法案的表決涉及到未來核限性爭議的問題。我要申請釋憲。你要採具名的方式。具名有幾種?點名是不是具名?我問你,點名是不是具名?表決器可不可以用具名?可以具名,可不可以具名?可以嗎?投票可不可以具名?投票可不可以具名?可以嗎?表決器可以具名?"},{"start":6001.533,"end":6029.979,"text":"投票可以記名投票也可以記名但是舉手表決沒有辦法記名請要我們未來的法案表決要確定用具名的方式確保我們事件的申請可以合乎要件民主黨你如果未來不能堅持這兩點我們會保證把你從主席那邊趕下來好 謝謝宗教兵委員的質詢"},{"start":6044.238,"end":6064.667,"text":"主席有請周秘書長有請周秘書長秘書長我們的中召委非常有氣勢非常霸氣阿要把你從主席台趕下來你有沒有被嚇到我不在乎這個位置阿謝謝要把你從主席台趕下來"},{"start":6066.271,"end":6093.166,"text":"我告訴各位我今天就欣賞我們中召委阿心裡話說出來阿中召委說要把大家從主席台趕下來這就是他說要把周萬神從主席台趕下來阿要把主席台趕下來阿好我就要跟各位講請問周秘書長為什麼當天我們必須要採取舉手投票為什麼"},{"start":6094.013,"end":6120.956,"text":"因為有一個因素產生啊,所以不得不採用居所表決您好,很中立,我不為難你但我來講講因素是什麼當天是不是發生民進黨立委拔掉國民黨的這個計票卡,有沒有誒抱歉,影片都有中召委影片都有很清楚影片都有"},{"start":6122.284,"end":6133.354,"text":"我想請問秘書長啊今天民進黨說要把人從主席台拉下來一直攻上去主席台被佔了以後有辦法表決嗎有辦法表決嗎我說如果民進黨把主席站下來主席台站下來把麥克風拔掉還有辦法表決嗎"},{"start":6150.062,"end":6164.69,"text":"癱瘓方式之一啦所以為什麼今天國民黨必須在上面互助議事尊嚴互助議事程序嘛因為民進黨所有的欸這個可能不要民進黨不要再否認啦你們全部在攻主席台啊所以第一個情況民進黨口口然後民進黨就喊說你們全部下來按計票器計時器表決那我就要問第二個問題民主黨"},{"start":6180.457,"end":6195.931,"text":"這個計票器的那個計票卡每個人委員配的那張計票卡被拔走以後請問如何行使計票啊對嘛今天如果舉手表決有像民進黨說這麼萬惡不赦就是你民進黨造成的啦我們在台下按計票器你就上去抽主席才癱瘓意思"},{"start":6207.577,"end":6213.039,"text":"我們在台上守護議事你就在台上偷拔計票器不要否認有影片還在講舉手投票你油臉講舉手投票舉手投票就是你民進黨弄出來的就這麼簡單我再想要請教一下我們的秘書長舉手投票是不是議事規則裡面的投票方式是三十五條規定啊對啊"},{"start":6235.137,"end":6256.527,"text":"就是議事規則裡面的投票方式啊那民進黨你要講說多少年前我管你多少年前他就是議事規則裡面的投票方式沒錯吧委員會是舉手投票啊不是嗎英國的國會舉手投票嗎不是嗎舉手投票就是因為在當場的議場上民進黨的蠻橫"},{"start":6265.287,"end":6287.356,"text":"以逼的今天我們的議事進行必須採取合乎規定的舉手投票我接下來再要請教我們的秘書長我知道中朝我一直在講所謂的這個可否依次來那個表決嘛 對不對那想請教秘書長一定要用這種方式嗎"},{"start":6292.708,"end":6295.149,"text":"我剛講的是說可否的這個問題他是說贊成要舉一次反對要舉一次"},{"start":6316.263,"end":6336.155,"text":"因為我們從實例裡面都是正面表決的沒有用在做環表決的我也呼籲秘書長什麼叫正面表決當場如果明顯我們在做贊成投票的時候贊成數過半數就極為可決嘛 對不對對啊單面正面表決只要過半數就是可決嘛"},{"start":6344.682,"end":6353.05,"text":"對不對啊單面正面表決如果是今天反對過半就是否決嘛所以也沒有鍾佳平講的那個問題啊當天所有的投票如果說今天民進黨的數學不好我幫大家算啊請問秘書長國民黨這次立法院幾席啊"},{"start":6368.035,"end":6394.952,"text":"五十四席阿民眾黨幾席八席嘛然後那個民進黨幾席五十一席對啊各位你們直接去看在現場國民黨跟民眾黨尤其國民黨幾乎是全員到除了正副院長因為身份的某些過去的原因原則上除非特別狀況參與投票否則就是五十二席在那個地方阿"},{"start":6395.939,"end":6399.941,"text":"加上民眾黨巴西請問有沒有過半?議長有沒有過半?就過半了嘛所以民進黨到現在為止透過各種方式來去這邊扭曲我再問一下秘書長請問你們在協商的時候有沒有談到希望大家就是不要這個公站主席台我們就在底下去投票有沒有"},{"start":6426.895,"end":6431.817,"text":"因為他這不是公開的所以我未必在這邊說明好 那我在這邊正中呼籲啊真的啊 我覺得下次協商很簡單啊請所有的三黨的立委黨團三長直接簽竊結書這麼明顯這麼愛計票機投票保證兩件事情計票機投票就會發生"},{"start":6451.198,"end":6480.342,"text":"只要民進黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一不要講民進黨所有黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一以及所有黨不去拔人家這麼沒水準拔人家的計票卡保證二民主黨想請問這兩個保證都落實大家有沒有辦法就坐在椅子上好好的按計票器了在書上是一定會這樣處理就可以了嘛所以民進黨你這麼心心念念不要舉手投票"},{"start":6482.315,"end":6509.685,"text":"你就簽保證書嘛我來跟國民黨反映我們就簽這兩點保證書三黨都簽明天的投票全部都做在底下好好的表決不要偷把表決卡丟人現眼偷把表決卡是不對的行為就像說今天我們進到議場大家在那邊好好排隊不要插隊嘛國民禮節不插隊民進黨也做不到啊"},{"start":6510.896,"end":6520.522,"text":"國民黨排隊排多少小時?你本來知道嗎?第一天的那個開會在那個電視上是很長時間48小時啊我在那邊睡兩個晚上啊我是睡兩個晚上啊我今天晚上還要再去睡我們願意嗎?排隊精神啊那民進黨又懶惰你早點去排隊不就好了?為什麼不早點排隊?到現場去插隊?"},{"start":6540.755,"end":6552.785,"text":"懶惰、插隊來為了要搶金一場打警察、打記者、打立委、打一死人打穿亂來啊厲害啦還說別人暴力黨啊還好意思說別人暴力黨我再來問秘書長警察權請問一下秘書長當天有行使警察權嗎沒有因為韓院長一開始他就宣告不動用警察權"},{"start":6568.786,"end":6587.227,"text":"可是民進黨一直咬著你用警察權啊奇怪為什麼民進黨一直咬著你用警察權秘書長你就覺得沒有用警察權為什麼因為警察權的概念啦因為長期在院裡面的在研究的時候這個警察權的概念是在會堂裡面的我幫秘書長歸納一下"},{"start":6590.168,"end":6615.578,"text":"警察權的概念是在那個會場裡面嘛 對不對當議事進行程序受到干擾的時候如果今天立法院院長要排除這些干擾在那個會場裡面叫做警察權嘛是不是這個概念我的看法是這樣因為中委員跟我看法不太相同那我跟各位講議場以外就是院長的人身安全維護是不是就整個一個院區的一個"},{"start":6620.031,"end":6632.98,"text":"那我想請問第一天民進黨在那邊我威脅到院長的人身安全在門後面沒有進到會場喔門後面喔鏡頭很清楚吧又拉又扯又拔成何體統像樣子嗎但韓院長的安全不重要嗎民主黨韓院長安全重不重要對啊很重要啊"},{"start":6644.853,"end":6672.99,"text":"所以今天如果說確保今天韓院長能夠好好的有尊嚴的不受傷害的不受威脅的走進會場這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎?走進會場而已喔不是在會場裡面喔會場一定警察是不能進去會場對嘛所以在會場以外那就是今天院長的人身安全維護啊不是嗎?"},{"start":6674.178,"end":6699.557,"text":"我想請問今天院長如果說今天要進到立法院而外面有民眾打他攻擊他攔阻他不讓他進來請問警察要不要保護他當然要嘛這個就沒身份區別了我不管那個民眾是叫做民進黨立委還是叫做一般民眾只要今天去攔阻了韓院長進到立法院裡面請問警察要不要保護他"},{"start":6701.274,"end":6704.055,"text":"要保護他嘛那這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎當然嘛法律常識啦稍微剛剛我們莊瑞雄講很多我要繼續一下稍微再借一點時間我再來請問一下秘書長明天還在講清點人數"},{"start":6724.588,"end":6743.741,"text":"可是我看到以前蘇嘉賢院長親臉人說的方式蠻好的啊為什麼今天我們親臉人說的方式民進黨不滿意呢?為什麼?不太了解不過有利在錢所以我們原的是誰的利?剛剛公報有宣告是因為蘇院長的事對嘛!"},{"start":6745.345,"end":6772.43,"text":"就蘇嘉全留下這麼好的議事範例啊民進黨這麼討厭蘇嘉全嗎不需要一直打臉蘇嘉全啦真的拜託就像說今天我們那天提了所謂的不再提散會動議的動議這個創始人是國民黨嗎是柯建民嘛 對不對當時的立法院長是民進黨的嘛 對不對所以民進黨啊真的不要一直在那邊回籬標打自己啦"},{"start":6773.615,"end":6781.501,"text":"最後我要問一下秘書長你那麼多年間警政署那個代表可以上來一下最後一題主席最後一題警政署代表上來一下我想請問台灣民主有史以來由執政黨發起全台街頭運動對抗國會以前發生過嗎"},{"start":6801.201,"end":6806.962,"text":"執政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。民主黨他現在還要研究一下你曾經記過有哪個執政黨發起全台的街頭運動號稱要來對抗國會的,你有沒有聽過?請周民主黨回答。台灣沒看到。沒看到,來來來。副署長看過沒有?"},{"start":6829.274,"end":6852.284,"text":"答對就是沒有啦當家鬧事可惡自己就是民進黨啊那我再問問看啊全世界我不知道啦我的世界觀不好啦有沒有發聲過說今天執政黨沒關係啦我告訴你我再借我借一下我們柯總召的星海羅盤時間啦齁我要跟大家講我再最後一題問一個問題結束來沒關係我問完來我要問秘書長齁全世界"},{"start":6857.591,"end":6859.893,"text":"有執政黨號召街頭運動來攻擊國會對抗國會來說要藐視國會喔他主要說我要藐視國會號召全台街頭運動你見過嗎哪個民主國家有這樣做法過"},{"start":6873.653,"end":6896.309,"text":"我比較出錢不過我只知道那個行政部門跟國會之間曾經發生過但是那個是抗議執政黨啊抗議執政行活動比比皆是啊抗議在野黨我真的是沒見過啦歷史第一次全世界都在看偽詐民進黨當家鬧事想要癱瘓國會以上"},{"start":6898.22,"end":6902.562,"text":"好謝謝羅委員謝謝周秘書長接下來請林委員施明發言好謝謝昭偉請秘書長請周秘書長秘書長林委員好我想針對剛才我們昭偉"},{"start":6927.472,"end":6938.698,"text":"講說要把你趕下台我聽了非常震驚其實中央兵委員我想過去我們在第10屆大家也是同事我對他的這個"},{"start":6940.407,"end":6959.778,"text":"的感受就對他這個人我覺得他還蠻穩健理性的但是剛才講說要把你從主席台趕下來我覺得我蠻震驚的不像他過去讓我感覺他還是蠻理性蠻這個作風蠻溫文儒雅的一個一位立法委員"},{"start":6960.999,"end":6985.738,"text":"所以我想這樣的在我們的委員會質詢的時候對秘書長做這樣子的一個言辭的其實我是覺得說很不恰當所以趙偉我不想說讓你從我的這個對你的觀感有所改變所以我還是希望說大家理性的來問政而不要涉及到說秘書長我要把你趕下來怎麼趕"},{"start":6987.23,"end":7007.241,"text":"暴力嗎你可以嘴巴講啊我想我們很多的委員在職選不管行政官員我們也會講說你下台你下台大家延遲交鋒但是說如果說要用這種暴力的行為我想這個絕對是要受到譴責的很不恰當好那回歸正題那這個"},{"start":7009.122,"end":7037.753,"text":"民主黨我們在星期一、星期二的院會的時候我們發現一件就是發生一件事情就是說我們的這個立法委員在我們在這個審查國會改革無法的時候那有好幾位立委都被在那個我們的媒體台上面的國會的某位委員的國會助理這位助理叫詹守中"},{"start":7038.837,"end":7061.515,"text":"而用他的不曉得是用手機還是用用攝影機還是用這個相機呢去拍攝可以的拍攝我們委員去窺視他的手機他在看手機去窺視他手機的內容窺視他手機的內容啊部長你看那相你就看一下啊好幾位委員吼包含了這個"},{"start":7064.68,"end":7085.715,"text":"陳永康、賴世寶還有高堅素梅陳清輝委員故意的對他的手機的內容在窺視他手機現在正在拍攝什麼請問民主黨當天有跟您有委員有跟您提出說現在在台上有人在偷拍他當時你怎麼處理"},{"start":7088.24,"end":7114.994,"text":"我當時王委員來臺上有跟我說我立即就請他們去處理啦但是在可能是某個委員的助理在在澳門我們是有叫他請他因為他有證的啦因為助理有證所以當然不可能在場上做獸營的動作所以我們請他離場是那他做這樣的一個動作而且他PO到這個他的臉書上面齁"},{"start":7116.332,"end":7143.95,"text":"有意圖去散布請問民主黨這種行為是構成我們相關的一個刑法上的一個罪責我只在行政上就對於這一個異常的管理會去加強對於這個處理至於有沒有涉及刑罪我就很抱歉我也不太了解好那我們請法務部法務部是我們的次長"},{"start":7150.063,"end":7166.881,"text":"市長請快點市長現在我們想我也大概給你看一下就是我們刑法其實妨礙秘密罪章規定的很清楚就是不得去歸視偷拍人家非公開的這些活動那您認為說現在"},{"start":7169.944,"end":7187.611,"text":"這位助理啊在這個就是我們的媒體區上面從台上拍攝我們委員他不是拍攝他的這個整個公開的活動他針對他的手機的內容可能去拉近距離去偷拍去窺視他手機的內容"},{"start":7189.212,"end":7210.57,"text":"請問這樣符不符合我們刑法315條的無故利用工具或設備去窺視他人之非公開的活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位?夠不夠成這條罪?我想這個案子從這樣的畫面我不太能夠掌握他到底看得到看不到他的談話內容"},{"start":7212.432,"end":7232.423,"text":"就這樣一個畫面如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機這樣的動作其實我想好幾張相片啊都可以看得出來這樣子看所以這個部分看起來好像我目前看到那個照片是看不到那個因為那個有點比較小啦對對對但是如果只是看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機這個動作"},{"start":7233.564,"end":7256.834,"text":"好,這樣沒關係,這樣你看不清楚我體諒你啦但是其實我們從他這個行為舉止裡面我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼,在看什麼這個他的意圖非常清楚啦所以他是無故以照相的方式來切入"},{"start":7257.634,"end":7279.521,"text":"且看他人的言論還有談話所以其實是蠻清楚的所以這個部分我在這邊我就提告法了我就提告法所以這位詹守忠先生希望你們趕快去運以這個偵辦因為秘書長很客氣他沒有把他移送法辦其實這個已經涉及到有相關的犯罪的嫌疑所以我在這邊"},{"start":7281.521,"end":7303.836,"text":"正式告發這位詹守中先生涉及違反刑法315條之一的防害秘密罪這是一個告訴乃論的罪是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴那我們請這個被拍攝的委員趕快來提告檢察官就會依法來調查好謝謝那請這個秘書長秘書長你要有什麼補充我以為說這樣好"},{"start":7306.798,"end":7309.72,"text":"市長我再請問一下我們針對這一次我們行政院本的洗錢防制法第二條就洗錢的定義啊"},{"start":7327.994,"end":7345.859,"text":"將第二條第一款的原本是意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪的所得來源或使他人逃避刑事追溯而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得那現在我們把它修正就是把意圖兩個字刪除請問次長刪除的原因是什麼"},{"start":7346.991,"end":7375.26,"text":"因為我們是參照德國立法例那德國刑法261條對於掩飾型的洗錢犯罪我們還是一樣是採所謂的抽象危險犯那我們只要客觀有隱匿或掩飾行為主觀上知悉可得知悉財產或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得就會構成那沒有必要把這個特定的意圖意圖犯放在條文裡面不過沒有讓我們覺得"},{"start":7376.7,"end":7397.257,"text":"這樣子的話也方便認定也不影響法律的構成要件是那個這樣我看你的在說明裡面您是提到說好像跟我們的刑法的體力用意圖引以掩飾你認為這個跟刑法的體力不好像有所這個漢格啊是其實我看起來不會我們刑法裡面很多的意圖盈利啦或意圖使"},{"start":7398.078,"end":7414.074,"text":"他指自己或第三人不法所有這樣的一個構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面所以你原本有意圖隱匿或掩飾這樣的一個構成要件但是你現在把它拿掉把這個主觀的一個要件拿掉"},{"start":7416.269,"end":7438.222,"text":"這個我看起來你說繼續看起來你解釋了很多啦但是我覺得我還是覺得說這個把它拿掉好像在這個包括我們試用上可能會有意義基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件跟主觀要件不會因為意圖這兩支拿掉以後就不需要主觀要件那這個主觀要件必須要主觀上知悉或可得知悉財產"},{"start":7439.242,"end":7441.923,"text":"或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得。"},{"start":7459.969,"end":7482.873,"text":"就是比較好像沒那麼具體的看起來啦你思考一下啦這是我的建議啦我覺得把意圖拿掉蠻奇怪的是是是意圖隱匿意圖掩飾這很清楚啊過程要見就非常的清楚啦是把它拿掉你說因為要去參照德國的立法例是我們是參照德國立法例是我是請你再研議啦好不好是是是好謝謝來是我再請教一下就第17條的規定講說可像"},{"start":7485.874,"end":7511.439,"text":"公務機關這條新增的講說可向公務機關或非公務機關調取必要的資料並得分送國內外相關機關在條文說明處說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增列除了請問次長在尚未新增本條條文時偵查洗錢的案件是否有遇到任何的調取資料的困難"},{"start":7512.642,"end":7529.418,"text":"目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法以及法務部調查局處務規程法務部調查局辦理洗錢防制洗錢及打擊滋控業務作業要點等這個行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行"},{"start":7531.059,"end":7548.316,"text":"市長我了解我現在問的是說在過去沒有這一條以前你們在偵查這些案件有遇到任何的困難嗎?行政機關還是都會配合但是平建的時候就認為我們沒有法制的話這對我們來講是一個有一個法源的依據但是我現在想一個疑問就是說"},{"start":7555.376,"end":7578.773,"text":"那我們採明的時候我們調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關那國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎?這個要互惠對嗎?要互惠嗎?對我們要互惠要一定的條件所以那現在我們有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的一個制度啊?"},{"start":7581.165,"end":7584.367,"text":"現在愛格盟的會員有174個國家所以我們透過愛格盟的安全網路可以跟174個會員國交換情誌"},{"start":7605.224,"end":7633.1,"text":"所以有174個國家已經跟我們建立這樣互惠平等的機制我們的資料分享給他他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們基於平等互惠的原因我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這個條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難"},{"start":7634.235,"end":7657.094,"text":"所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙愛德蒙聯盟安全網路也會提供給我們分享他們的資料給我們現行都有在分享所以他們也有相同這樣的一個洗錢防制的條文嗎跟我們一樣的一個對等的一個條文嗎只要因為所有的"},{"start":7657.975,"end":7678.385,"text":"金融情報中心他的相關法制要符合國際規範那國際規範非政府的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長"},{"start":7688.918,"end":7705.808,"text":"市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月以及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土增小組繼續來做一個審查。"},{"start":7709.87,"end":7728.151,"text":"那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動"},{"start":7729.012,"end":7753.106,"text":"根為簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢?台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛"},{"start":7755.467,"end":7774.327,"text":"大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類型是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。來,接下來請翁委員小林質詢。翁委員小林,翁委員小林不在,請黃委員三三指,發言,請。"},{"start":7782.401,"end":7782.781,"text":"法務部經管會政企局"},{"start":7798.378,"end":7823.4,"text":"市長還有金管會政企局我想今天有洗錢防制法的提案說明我也講得很清楚台灣民眾黨的洗錢防制法版本已經提出來那我看到院版的相關的版本我昨天也諮詢了部長台灣現在的詐騙已經影響到人民的生活而且我們應該政府應該竭盡所能的來打詐但是在"},{"start":7824.773,"end":7838.708,"text":"民進黨政府執政多年八年來我們的詐騙案件成立了打炸辦公室成立了相關的打炸政策綱領但是我們的打炸是越打越炸"},{"start":7840.233,"end":7862.462,"text":"案件從2萬多件40多億現在已經到3萬多件80多億所以我們現在提出了打詐專法那今天又提出了洗錢防制專法但是我今天看到你們的洗錢防制法裡面有很詫異的一件事情金管會對於虛擬貨幣的業者現在有相關的專法來做管理嗎?"},{"start":7863.638,"end":7879.811,"text":"有嗎?現在沒有但是我們在這一次的洗錢防治法第6條把所有的你們該立專法的法條是不是全部都挪到洗錢防治法上面由法務部來幫你們管理啊?"},{"start":7881.574,"end":7899.169,"text":"包括委員 這個第二條如果通過之後 那他這個執法授權的執法這邊規定是說中央目的世界主管機關來訂定就是監管會來訂定我要跟次長說你法務部現在的問題是我到立法院將近三個多月從2月1號開始跟監管會不斷的在討論虛擬貨幣業者怎麼樣監管他們從頭到尾就是不想管"},{"start":7906.141,"end":7923.241,"text":"也就是說對於我們所謂的虛擬貨幣新興的業者這些新興的科技相關的產業他們其實跟洗錢跟詐欺是有息息相關的但是我們金管會從頭到尾就是不想管定了一個指導原則請他們成立工會請你們工會去自律"},{"start":7923.982,"end":7943.055,"text":"今天突然間又把所有東西丟在洗錢防制法交給你法務部來管理我看起來洗錢防制法裡面有一大半尤其是在虛擬貨幣業者全部都在幫他管理社長你了解我的意思嗎我們如果今天洗錢防制法是幫金管會去管理一個業者這是很可笑的"},{"start":7944,"end":7970.634,"text":"我想這個洗錢防制法不是一個部會單獨的業務是但是他業者的監管應該是由他訂專法之後監管他的行為才是洗錢防制法要處理的行為但是不是洗錢防制法來幫他管理業者這是我個人的意見而且我也認為說我們不應該把管理這些業別的責任丟到洗錢防制法來當母法"},{"start":7971.515,"end":7974.18,"text":"這是你法務部用這個母法來幫他監管你知道嗎?"},{"start":7977.198,"end":8003.137,"text":"我想主責洗錢防制法是我們的義務但是業者的監管是監管會應該去訂出相關的管理規則而這個業者經過政府認可這個業別你才來管這些業別的人他的洗錢要怎麼管制對我來說從法的角度從體力的角度他都不應該把對於業者的監管放在洗錢防制法讓你來管"},{"start":8004.358,"end":8030.428,"text":"今天的我的意見是如此請你請次長也回去重新跟金管會好好的討論金管會從頭到尾就是不想管包括他們跟我們所有的溝通過程就是他我只要定定規則業者去自律自律是什麼樣的狀況就是不管的意思第二個第三方支付也是這一次重要重中之重可是我們第三方支付又是速發不再管對吧"},{"start":8031.348,"end":8059.26,"text":"所以我們的國家同樣的管理機制各種不同的主管業務法務部任重道遠現在他們都是洗錢的管道之一而洗錢又跟詐騙息息相關所以這些所有法案裡面都應該由一個主責單位就是我們民眾黨所提出的相關的辦法裡面很重要的是法務部應該建置一個完整的平台"},{"start":8060.06,"end":8086.789,"text":"你知道現在業者怎麼報嗎自己跟高檢署聯絡自己跟調查局聯絡自己跟警察局聯絡所有的虛弊業者都是做這樣的事他想要配合但他不知道怎麼配合有的好聯絡好沒有聯絡的他想要跟銀行溝通說我這邊那個帳戶我跟你的關係他沒有聯絡管道這是我覺得很詭異的地方如果中華民國政府要打架不是這種打法"},{"start":8088.325,"end":8110.342,"text":"越打越炸是怎麼回事呢?市長你對於這個平台有沒有什麼意見?要不要建立一個完整的平台?而不是由金管會做一個法務部做一個金管會在前面管銀行管得嚴得要命這些相關的人全部不管然後這些平台業者變成要自己聯絡第三個你法務部在後面收爛攤子"},{"start":8112.146,"end":8125.56,"text":"市長我想今天這個法很清楚既然要提我們就提一個完整的版本第二個該監管會的責任就堆回去給他不要幫他承擔監管的責任你了解我的意思嗎是是"},{"start":8128.069,"end":8145.087,"text":"多久之內我們這個法既然委員交委要排審了我們希望說下一次我們希望把監管跟責任跟洗房的行為把它切開你們這部法律裡面看起來就是你說我們的版本有問題我才認為你們的版本問題很大"},{"start":8145.808,"end":8172.105,"text":"報告委員是不是還是依照我們這個版本然後在相關管理的這些執法在有相關的部會他們來制定?我要說的是你的洗錢防制法不是在幫金管會管理業者啦你的管理業者的辦法應該是他另外定一個專法這個專法這是他的責任不是洗錢防制法的責任洗錢防制法在管行為不是在管業別對吧?對"},{"start":8173.956,"end":8187.961,"text":"拜託你了好嗎我想回到體力上面回到正常的管道讓金管會負其他該負責的責任政體局一樣我希望你們負起你們該監管的責任該立法就立法不要推到洗錢防制法去好的謝謝"},{"start":8191.505,"end":8211.158,"text":"好請謝謝王委員謝謝次長接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱洪孟凱委員不在請陳委員俊宇發言"},{"start":8232.483,"end":8248.009,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們先請法務部我們的次長及經管會的莊局長請次長及局長主席謝謝主席委員好次長好"},{"start":8250.663,"end":8276.236,"text":"市長我先請教您我們今天排審的這個洗錢防制法修正草案是在這個會期的一個重點法案之一那我也希望說能夠透過修法來回應民眾最關心的這個詐騙防制的相關問題那也是相關部會在打擊詐騙和這個新興洗錢防制上急需擁有的一個武器那這邊我想先就兩個部分來請教"},{"start":8278.035,"end":8282.402,"text":"有關這個洗錢防制的這個跨機關整合應該要如何來進行"},{"start":8289.678,"end":8316.067,"text":"我們這個法就是本身就是整合在我們母法定好以後相關的執法然後相關的經管會或者是訴發部他們就根據這些母法的他們會制定相關的執行的執法那就對於業者的管理以及申報的義務以及集合內機跟他們的內控的機制跟集合機制都會接著就會出來相關的法則會出來這都是跨"},{"start":8316.807,"end":8333.909,"text":"瓜部會的一個結合我想這個才會好那我們在這個跨國合作的部分緊透過這個參與亞太防制組織是否這樣就足夠了這個是對我們的一個平建制度就是護平的制度"},{"start":8334.409,"end":8359.361,"text":"那其他的像剛才調查局的同仁也報告過我們很多的一個資金的異常的資料他們事實上我們在國際互惠的原則之下是有做交換這都是屬於跨國的合作那我們目前是有哪一個機關在負責這個工作就是你說跨國的合作部分"},{"start":8359.801,"end":8367.199,"text":"那個法務部調查局的洗房處洗房處好那那個洗房處嗎"},{"start":8372.453,"end":8401.105,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是因為我們那個倒下去洗錢防制處是我國的金融情報中心那我們有參加那個愛格蒙聯盟那透過愛格蒙聯盟的安全網路我們會跟其他的會員國做情資的交換好那我再來我想請教我們銀行局莊局長我們除了在法制面上的這個修正以外在務實上的執行部分想請教和第一線的這個金融機構在修法上溝通是否順暢"},{"start":8402.749,"end":8428.886,"text":"報告委員其實這次的修正其實現行金融機構他本來就已經固定在執行他防制洗錢的義務所以其實這一次不用這一次的修正以前我們其實現行的條文裡面就賦予金融機構很多的義務比如說KYC啊或者是交易監控那這些資訊如果他們覺得有任何可疑的部分他們會"},{"start":8429.947,"end":8449.295,"text":"去通報那個法務部調查局的那個FIU那邊那FIU這邊其實定期也會跟金融機構做一些教育訓練我們常常會辦一些法尊論談所以彼此之間資訊是會互相的互相的好那對於我們修訂的這個機制和規範有沒有這個規劃相關的訓練"},{"start":8454.763,"end":8469.793,"text":"這個部分的話因為這次主要修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者那如果後續修正完畢之後我們也會循現有的金融機構的溝通協調還有論壇的方式來做彼此資訊的分享跟訓練"},{"start":8470.734,"end":8493.342,"text":"好,那剛剛問的這部分再請我們相關部會是不是可以會後給我一份比較詳細的這個書面資料。好,是。好,那那個局長跟那個次長跟局長請回。好,我們請那個周秘書長。請周秘書長。好,秘書長好。我想"},{"start":8494.315,"end":8520.703,"text":"就這個立法院解凍的報告當中國會助理法制化的部分來做一個討論我想這個問題也不是新的這個議題了過去不管是公會還是民團都有在倡議那希望透過法制的修訂以避免發生爭議改善工作條件等等那現行有關規定是依據我們立法院組織法第32條及第33條包括每位立法委員可以聘用的這個助理人數"},{"start":8521.503,"end":8537.618,"text":"以及各黨團公費助理的人數那秘書長您在這個立法院已經30多年了多年來來來去去也看到很多的案例那想請教秘書長一個問題就是您認為國會助理在立法院裡面是扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":8544.609,"end":8570.183,"text":"涉事委員問政包括當然委員的處理有很多類別但最主要還是要能夠讓委員在問政的時候能有相當大的一個問政的功能那立法委員的職權相當的繁重那個秘書長您也認同需要有專業的幕僚團隊一起來推動相關的工作但是從這個我們先前調查的結果可以看到"},{"start":8570.963,"end":8586.108,"text":"國會助理的平均年資僅有2年多甚至大部分都做不到4年也就是少於立法委員一屆的這個任期那想請問秘書長說針對這個部分您的經驗來看造成這個流動率偏高的主因是什麼"},{"start":8586.994,"end":8605.402,"text":"當然這一個因為事由委員在雇用的時候因為每一個助理他對他的這個生涯規劃不完全一樣啦因為事由委員來雇用嘛所以在總政的過程當中有很多的委員助理"},{"start":8605.942,"end":8623.308,"text":"一、二十年的委員處理也很多。其實除了生涯規劃以外啦齁這個待遇可能是最重要的原因之一啦齁所以現在公費助理的薪水來自立法院每年所編列的預算那我想請問秘書長如果助理的這個待遇能夠這個明文規範公開透明"},{"start":8625.969,"end":8639.554,"text":"讓有志投入國會的工作的助理在待遇上能夠有保障有可能比較能夠避免投機的行為或是違法的爭議事件發生我想請教秘書長您的看法如何"},{"start":8640.356,"end":8660.829,"text":"對於委員的助理,因為長期來從七十幾年我們在互動的時候,我對於委員的助理是相當是曾肯定的這個態度啦。當然能夠讓他提升的一個他的職位,比如舉個例來講,委員的這個工會助理的這個費用,原來就是從3萬4萬到現在是5萬嘛。"},{"start":8662.97,"end":8679.557,"text":"那如果各位委員認為他這個助理在僱用的費用能夠提升其實也可以經過這一個主持法的大家的一個修正上讓他提升讓委員有比較多的這個僱用這個助理的費用也是一條路的方法"},{"start":8681.065,"end":8707.126,"text":"國會的這個助理法制化齁那我相信這個部分我希望我們由秘書長您這邊來做一個滾動式的檢討啦我們能夠檢討出一套符合所有這個助理的一個這個期待的一個這個新法的話我相信這樣子才能夠把這個比較優質的這些助理一直這個留存下來來幫助我們整個立法院推動相關議事的運作謝謝謝謝謝謝指導我在在"},{"start":8708.027,"end":8723.223,"text":"私下我會再來做比較嚴厲的讓他比較讓助理本身對這一個他的工作他有一個成就好那在就我們這個國會擴建的部分我想再就叫我們秘書長目前進度為何"},{"start":8724.69,"end":8741.527,"text":"現在還沒有已經都提報但還沒有是私下的一個希望能夠透過黨團協商因為陳委員也非常關心那麼多次所以能夠透過黨團協商來就能夠去推動啦在這裡就跟大概總務處也上前也跟院長有稍微就報告過"},{"start":8743.889,"end":8769.726,"text":"我還是期待我們周秘書長您能夠加快這個速度因為就我們這個報告資料來看不論選擇目前規劃的這個其中六個點之一的其中一個點他所必須要這個期程要在14到19年左右那這時間算是蠻冗長的那這個整個過程你如果沒有趕快啟動的話我相信這是遙遙無期"},{"start":8771.257,"end":8796.625,"text":"那針對這個遙遙無期的情況之下我們現況的立法院有沒有可能就限職來做簡單的擴建包括我們走進來這個警衛住所還是這個商店街還是這個康源這一個區塊有沒有辦法在這個地方先就第一期的這個擴建讓我們未來整個立法院所有同仁在使用空間上可以更加的這個符合現在的期待"},{"start":8797.475,"end":8825.351,"text":"您要不要來跟他說明一下我請處長因為有一些規劃因為有一些規劃在報告委員因為本院在今年度有編列預算原本是等到曹禹香決定地點後我們會進行這個相關的規劃那所以這個是有做準備但是需要先決定地點好 那處長會後麻煩您剛剛講的這一個部分我剛剛詢問的部分"},{"start":8826.567,"end":8840.733,"text":"然後再包括我們有兩個會館現在對於整修的部分的期程可不可以給我一份完整的這個書面資料是OK好那我在就叫就叫我們祕書長立法院現在是誰在當家"},{"start":8847.031,"end":8871.172,"text":"所以是韓院長在當家嗎?院長因為從法條規定他是總理員務好那為什麼國民黨在這近期的這個院會裡面全副武裝進入這個院會裡面就像這個政報人員一樣並且在這個過程裡面發生這個肢體衝突的時候導致民進黨的多位這個委員受傷"},{"start":8878.861,"end":8901.659,"text":"應該秘書長您都在議場裡面啊所以到底是誰在當家鬧事好 那我想請教517跟521秘書長您有聽到外面民眾吶喊的聲音有看到民眾聚集的現象嗎你沒有回家嗎"},{"start":8904.628,"end":8908.489,"text":"我想整個過程所有媒體現在披露出來都是民眾看到這個立法院裡面這麼混亂的情況"},{"start":8925.697,"end":8951.634,"text":"在通過大家所不希望看到的法案所以自發性的走上街頭啊怎麼會剛剛我聽到說什麼是民進黨去動員的您認為咧我不太了解好 那主席再一分鐘那我想請教議事規則我們正式會議要進行表決之前清點人數應該是最基本的吧"},{"start":8953.324,"end":8980.536,"text":"對這一個當然有清點人數阿在過程當然有清點人數可是為什麼沒有每一次要表決就要因為在有一個以前曾經有這樣的一個例過在當時也做這樣的宣告所以大概一個大概一個案他都會有一個接續他就沒有再做清點那會議開始應該也要告知所有的委員說等一下我們將進行的這個表決方式是要用什麼方式表決應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":8981.983,"end":9008.585,"text":"有宣告在旁邊有宣告五二一有宣告嗎?欸都有宣告大概都有有宣告嗎?五二一是宣告要舉手表決嗎?是不是?每一次在表決的時候都一定有宣告那剛剛在講這個五一七當天可能是混亂的情況導致這個表決卡出了問題那五二一並沒有混亂的情況為什麼會是用舉手表決?"},{"start":9013.668,"end":9023.595,"text":"五一七跟五二一接續因為這暑期去裁定、去處理那我想請教我們設置記名表決器的用意何在?是要裝飾的嗎?民主國家為什麼會走民主的倒退路?怎麼這麼奇怪?"},{"start":9035.931,"end":9041.156,"text":"我希望秘書長您應該是要站在這個歷史的軌道上,未來要為歷史負責。好,以上。謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝陳委員。好,那麼因為時間已經11點,我們先休息5分鐘。"},{"start":9114.415,"end":9130.046,"text":"今天怎麼這麼多人?從來沒有這麼多?警察伯伯怎麼這麼多人?我們從來沒有這麼多人?我們這麼平和?從來沒有!我們當立委這麼多人!"},{"start":9194.848,"end":9195.946,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":9416.189,"end":9441.826,"text":"好,現在繼續開會在繼續會議之前先做如下之宣告那由於主席在會議開始前未及預告今日包括臨時提案的收受及處理時間在這裡徵詢在場的委員我們待會臨時提案在11點半後或是郭委員質詢完畢後進行處理請問在場委員有無異議"},{"start":9446.479,"end":9450.424,"text":"沒有,那我們就做這個宣告。接下來請吳委員、施堯進行諮詢。就說11禮拜會的郭委員講完,好請。好,謝謝主席。請部長,鄭部長。"},{"start":9475.069,"end":9495.316,"text":"部長長,今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正。那我想藉這個機會跟您快速的討論一下,我想這是一個觀念的分享,是一個思維的再精進。我過去長期在教育文化委員會,我是台灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人。"},{"start":9496.016,"end":9507.976,"text":"所以我協助藝術文化界當香港發生反送中事件台灣是一個最好的歷史契機讓20年前台灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要的"},{"start":9508.908,"end":9517.574,"text":"舞台能夠藉由此時此刻台灣的經濟發展台灣的民主社會秩序的穩定等等現在是讓台灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報定下了這一個政策方針但法務部是有角色的也許您會覺得很好奇您跟藝術品有什麼關係"},{"start":9539.188,"end":9546.869,"text":"您有沒有去參加過藝博藝術博覽會有沒有收藏購買藝術品的這個經驗或是生活上的喜好按鈕跟委員報告我對這個很有興趣但是我沒有去參加過博覽會下次我會邀請您來看好謝謝這跟法務部大有關係下一頁就5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的臺北當代"},{"start":9570.27,"end":9579.415,"text":"今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展短短3天3.5萬人進場有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣國內外都非常蓬勃的在台灣精進發聲這幾年的藝博會是非常hot非常讓大家能夠期待台灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭好下一頁"},{"start":9599.097,"end":9623.305,"text":"藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念當我在協助很多的拍賣公司拍賣產業或是藝術創作者在修法的階段或者是我現在秀出來的例子當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力要IPO不管是上市上櫃各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場"},{"start":9625.166,"end":9638.68,"text":"因為不管是政期局、政交所或是櫃買中心在收受、受理這些拍賣公司他要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住卡在一個藝術品拍賣"},{"start":9640.402,"end":9663.386,"text":"就是洗錢很容易洗錢所以這樣子的一個行業設下了很多層層的關卡跟不友善這是我要跟您分享的這是藝文藝術產業碰到的問題這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於行李對於藝術拍賣產業污名化下一頁"},{"start":9669.028,"end":9690.376,"text":"就本人在推動文化藝術講述條例的修法那個過程也是非常的辛苦我們要擴大對於藝術品交易的相關更進步讓台灣更有稅制競爭力的採分離課稅而且稅制定為1.2的這一次的修法2021年我實在歷經千辛萬苦"},{"start":9691.756,"end":9713.017,"text":"因為財政部很保留財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢甚至他不是問號幾乎是驚嘆號讓我們在修法的過程我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓台灣取代香港"},{"start":9714.301,"end":9720.982,"text":"活化台灣的藝術品交易的市場這是在修法的過程也卡在法務部的法律解釋那是觀念的問題下一頁"},{"start":9723.004,"end":9745.234,"text":"所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說嘛目前沒有適用嘛因為在所有的交易的相關的作業裡頭都很清楚清清楚楚乾乾淨淨金流買賣該登載的所有的法治管控都做得非常的完備甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後文化部在2020年召開了文化會報"},{"start":9749.796,"end":9776.254,"text":"再次定調之後拍賣市場原則上不是用洗錢防制法之後文化部也進一步定定了一個執法很明確的將藝術品交易的金額超過50萬元就要在拍賣前一個月向文化部提出申請而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達7年所以部長我分享到這裡我需要您政策上的宣誓"},{"start":9777.054,"end":9795.507,"text":"法務部門對於洗錢防制打炸防炸都要做但是對於正向的推動台灣的藝術文化的交易這個國家軟實力尤其要重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的這個重要的文化政策法務部的立場要清楚要堅定支持藝文產業"},{"start":9799.569,"end":9823.25,"text":"跟委員報告我們是會支持這個文化產業那這個文化的這些藝術品這部分的一個拍賣當然是不是用洗房法這是一個很清楚的那在個案上如果說有這種那當然要有證據有透過這種的合法認得合法的方式其實是掩蓋非法那是我們個案來處理好"},{"start":9825.572,"end":9851.914,"text":"所以在個案上若有真的涉及洗錢當然該辦就辦但是在通案跟制度上是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關的產業或是藝術團隊都要用更友善更進步更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場好嗎是好那謝謝您請回有請周愛蘭秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":9856.308,"end":9858.235,"text":"來議員好議員好議員好議員好議員好"},{"start":9860.117,"end":9884.402,"text":"您在國會這麼多年但我要說您輔佐相戰之下的韓院長上任3個月就創下了過去立法院30年都沒有的國會惡例第一個黑箱橋條文透明公開在哪裡第二個程序不正義民主審查全都失靈第三個議事不中立議事規則會轉彎這跟您大有關係"},{"start":9887.728,"end":9906.085,"text":"第四、表決不公平一路做票做到贏這也跟您大大相關很抱歉這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現的國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例我要提出強烈的批判"},{"start":9906.886,"end":9918.197,"text":"立法院不能黑箱橋條文立法院不能夠程序不正義立法院不能議事不中立更不能表決不公平跟您大有關係下一頁"},{"start":9920.134,"end":9923.176,"text":"我看到國民黨的委員說為什麼要用舉手表決呢因為啊表決卡不見了所以被迫啊要改成舉手表決這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論他甚至說表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的我問一下秘書長我們地方議員有沒有這麼落後"},{"start":9949.028,"end":9956.732,"text":"委員的表決卡不見了你沒有其他的空卡可以來做因應防範嗎?"},{"start":9962.898,"end":9978.189,"text":"因為卡在當時是被這個因為某種因素被抽出掉了然後呢你們都沒有被卡嗎?如果這樣任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事只要去幹走幾張卡A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎?因為這個當場的立即的處理上這不通嘛"},{"start":9984.929,"end":9998.124,"text":"那如果這樣是不是你要用一個金庫每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好殘殘防護要有保全保護表決卡沒有任何的備案嗎?"},{"start":10000.257,"end":10024.402,"text":"這什麼理由?更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道胡扯栽贓下頁我們來看影片誰手上拿著一疊表決卡誰去搶表決卡誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡而且把卡插到表決的委員的座位前面而且沒有一個委員在座位上"},{"start":10025.447,"end":10034.166,"text":"是誰是國民黨的徐欣盈委員我們來看一下影片徐縣長你注意看一下這個影片大家注意看一下這個影片"},{"start":10035.438,"end":10037.38,"text":"有沒有辦法傳沒有辦法傳是不是好也節省時間我告訴秘書長是該查如果有表決卡不見了該查是誰偷走是誰蓄意的破壞議事秩序但是就我們所搜證的結果拿走一疊表決卡"},{"start":10055.595,"end":10083.092,"text":"而且在違反韓院長說的唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上國民黨的徐欣穎委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡她為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡查清楚查清楚第二個表決卡如果不見了表決就不能進行了就要改舉手表決這立法院實在太落伍了吧"},{"start":10084.215,"end":10102.657,"text":"回去基本上我覺得是胡說八道啦不會因為沒有表決卡就不能表決啦你都有備卡空卡可以來因應舉手表決是為了什麼下一頁舉手表決是為了一路坐票坐到底這就是鐵證"},{"start":10104.352,"end":10113.08,"text":"在場只有108人是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣誓宣告在場人數108人贊成60人否定50人請問秘書長60加50是多少請回答"},{"start":10124.511,"end":10140.62,"text":"請回答60加50是注意喔有藐視國會罪喔我直接問您喔60加50等於多少秘書長我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔秘書長就回答我這個問題60加50是多少簡單的數學問題是請回答"},{"start":10149.884,"end":10152.548,"text":"請回答秘書長主席對不起我要佔有一點時間因為這個問題數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸這邊是寫110好60加50就是110人可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人"},{"start":10165.601,"end":10192.962,"text":"舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況就是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部我每一次表決我都要去第一章重新清點人數重新清點人數這就是必要好我不要說是不是有作票的意圖至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算的錯誤就應當嚴謹的來好好把每一次的表決人數算到底下一頁"},{"start":10194.043,"end":10218.756,"text":"讓我看一下楊瓊英委員的這個影片齁瓊英委員您在場齁看一下好嗎也沒有辦法看影片是不是就是當韓院長在宣告某一案的表決的時候民進黨只有51席啊可是韓院長的宣告是民進黨的贊成方舉手贊成舉手表決的贊成要改記名表決的是53人"},{"start":10221.721,"end":10223.402,"text":"然後楊瓊英委員在場齁就講幾次就講啊民進黨那有可能53人啊民進黨怎麼可能53人這是楊瓊英委員在這楊瓊英委員是反應快真的反應快這要加獎他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題"},{"start":10240.603,"end":10255.882,"text":"所以舉手表決的重大好那楊雄英委員現在改口說民進黨53人他當天不是問號他是驚嘆號好棒喔誰加入支持民進黨那誰加入支持民進黨用舉手表決算得出來看得出來嗎"},{"start":10257.369,"end":10286.568,"text":"必須要記名表決清清楚楚的對歷史負責如果就楊瓊英委員說的民進黨這個議案支持的是53票那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨唯一的方式就是按鈕表決記名對歷史負責不是嗎我後面還有很多今天時間不夠我要請秘書長明天又是一次的院會這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎"},{"start":10288.37,"end":10308.222,"text":"這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎?唯一的解方您非常清楚就是韓院長循政辦在三樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開回到協商場域繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法國會擴權法案逐條協商逐條討論這才是正辦"},{"start":10315.428,"end":10327.818,"text":"好嗎?沒有討論,不是民主。沒有討論,不是民主。秘書長,您是非常重要,相讚院長,主持要中立公平的人。好,謝謝,不好意思,再用時間。"},{"start":10354.27,"end":10370.098,"text":"來 等一下 等一下 等一下啊 現在要開外賣?對啊 沒關係啊 你點了我就請人家起來啊好 來 感恩喔 張瑞雄最理性啦 好 先等一下先等一下"},{"start":10372.795,"end":10387.598,"text":"主席楊前發言我想今天我們還是回歸今天的主題洗錢防制法跟立法院的這個解通案所以本期首先要先請周秘書長請周秘書長秘書長其實在5月17號我發覺真的你委屈了"},{"start":10400.494,"end":10415.063,"text":"當你被推在地上你的文件都被搶走我們真的都傻眼了死上頭一招那我也看到我們議事組人員也被嗆聲我真的蠻難過的"},{"start":10416.84,"end":10436.331,"text":"我們是一個理性的國家民主國家不應當有這樣的行為所以我還是呼籲我們藍綠白的委員大家都是為台灣在努力我們應該要好好的來問責不要再有那種暴力連議事組人員都搶這個是不對的一個行為"},{"start":10443.095,"end":10463.289,"text":"當然我也可以了解在整個氛圍當中大家會有所情緒但是情緒之後我們仍舊希望大家冷靜下來所以針對今天的解凍案包括了資訊設備與入口網平台公報業務公報行政"},{"start":10467.76,"end":10488.479,"text":"這一些本席認為今天在英明的召集人的主持之下希望能夠好好理性討論該解凍的去解凍為什麼我首先要提出這一點因為公報對我們來講很重要當天很多委員都吶喊我沒有看到資料"},{"start":10489.946,"end":10504.717,"text":"那這個呢也就是我們在公報當中以及現場所印出來的條文跟資料都非常的清楚都非常的清楚那本期也是希望說說雖然我不是司法委員會我是經濟委員會但是"},{"start":10507.441,"end":10530.175,"text":"我身為立法院的議員我仍舊希望在我剛剛所說的這個向下待會大家實質討論的時候有必要的盡快解凍因為這個對於我們整個議事來講是非常重要的所以首先我要請教秘書長當天那一種情況你心裡作何感想"},{"start":10534.113,"end":10549.02,"text":"因為只是一個剎那間的一個感覺啦我倒也沒有什麼特別對郭委員對我這一個我當時都不會去想到這個東西啦因為我當時是因為其實是輸啦不是吃料啦"},{"start":10549.74,"end":10576.363,"text":"是書你手上拿的那個到底是什麼東西啊我拿的是兩本我的書啦那因為當時有一個早上為了表決重複表決同事裡面有疑慮所以我就拿後面那本書因為有高鐵的一個案要跟他們說明就有這樣的情況那個意識力是這樣處理表決的時候你是吳季明那重複表決也是吳季明"},{"start":10576.903,"end":10586.285,"text":"因為同事不太了解所以我把那本書拿來給他們看你的法寶啦 你的兩本書啦齁那剛才本席也說了本席也說了"},{"start":10587.389,"end":10603.455,"text":"也就是說在當時的氛圍大家這個情緒似乎我們都可以理解但是我希望不要再有這種暴力的行為那所以呢現在大家說為什麼會提出這個舉手表決在聯合國在德國這些國家都有"},{"start":10611.175,"end":10618.94,"text":"在這樣的情況之下因為依照議事規則的規範在這個規範當中大家去調整大家去調整我還請問秘書長當時我們休息協商經過了幾次的草野協商對不對開始又到後面協商對不對我似乎聽到三黨當中"},{"start":10639.502,"end":10642.746,"text":"有人說我們大家都回來坐著好好來表決"},{"start":10644.38,"end":10670.714,"text":"但是協商不成有人反對對不對?是不是?威變在這個會裡面說明啦那因為協商當時是不公開齁所以我不宜在這邊做報告所以協商我們結果論嘛你們出去有人提到這樣的意見但是協商不成那到底誰反對大家都回來坐在椅子上好好的來用表決器表決"},{"start":10674.006,"end":10691.961,"text":"誰唱不成就是一定有人反對嘛到底誰反對本期之所以會提出這樣論點就是希望我們不要給社會大眾不正確的訊息接下來我放一段影片我是不忍心放但是我覺得要還原事實我放一分鐘影片"},{"start":10697.144,"end":10708.572,"text":"這不是你的決定誰抽?誰抽?誰在抽表決卡?這不是由你決定誰搶回表決卡?誰抽?很清楚誰在抽?影像證明一切嘛一事無效一事無效"},{"start":10728.57,"end":10747.757,"text":"影像代表一切這一些都是公開透明的所以我做一個結論立法院是這麼這麼的重要我們代表民意我們希望好好的來討論希望大家藍綠白都不要說不正確的訊息給社會大眾最後一個議題本席要請教"},{"start":10753.038,"end":10778.111,"text":"因為國會在這邊範圍非常的小上一屆的游錫堃院長他非常的用心這一點我欽佩他他到各地只要有人提議國會可以轉到哪裡可以在哪裡的這個地點他一個一個一個去拜會一個一個去看在台中我建議到台中"},{"start":10779.366,"end":10799.385,"text":"所以由院長到台中的時候我自己本身親自陪同我親自陪同所以這個目前也列在這一屆的項目之內嗎?進度如何請教我只跟廖處長跟你比較詳細的說好馬上馬上現在已經有呈報給好了現在的進度怎麼樣呢?處長請做說明"},{"start":10804.089,"end":10826.356,"text":"報告現在我們總務處已經簽報那等草野協商決定後的地點我們會進行後續的可行性評估好謝謝所以現在進行是當中嘛你已經簽報就等三黨的草野協商嘛我充分建議在我們台中最棒高雄來OK花東來OK北部下去OK大家最公平本席建議"},{"start":10830.734,"end":10835.197,"text":"張律師長辛苦了議事人員辛苦了謝謝謝謝楊卓英委員因為剛剛依先前鄭德委員會同意我們在11點半郭國文委員詢答後那就郭國文詢答後我們就進行處理那來請郭委員進行發言"},{"start":10867.964,"end":10885.486,"text":"因為11點半要開始處理提案,所以在這邊預作宣告,我們就不再受理臨時提案。謝謝主席,主席有請我們法務部正部長,以及我們銀行局局長,還有政區局代表。請,剛剛點到名的請上台,包括部長。"},{"start":10889.136,"end":10913.864,"text":"部長好部長因為本席今天有洗房法的這個提案那洗房法的這個問題當中主要針對打詐打詐的部分現在詐騙集團的界面其實除了這個電話網路之外最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣那現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態以至於這個詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向這個虛擬貨幣"},{"start":10915.965,"end":10934.445,"text":"我在上一次在建清改的這個討論當中呢建清改的這個成員啊對於現階段金管會做非常地不滿那我想問站在法務部的這個部長的角色就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的一個原因就是呢金管會並沒有全面性的納管是選擇性的納管"},{"start":10936.167,"end":10953.016,"text":"那也就是只有採取深度監管沒有採取廣度監管這種情況底下會有掛一落萬的情況底下造成第一線的檢察人員檢察官負擔非常之重那你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化"},{"start":10958.069,"end":10980.271,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這個議題齁那這個目前我們初期我們先做就是先做一個洗房法這樣的納管因為這也是經過多方的一個廣納意見那至於委員所提到的再更廣面更深度的納管我想我們可以再做一個我覺得你要強烈表達意見阿部長"},{"start":10981.132,"end":11003.453,"text":"依照目前為止整個金管部金管會的內部從銀行局移撥到正期局也不過從23家變25家有法遵聲明而已到目前為止還有約有60家還有包括個人的幣商還有其他黑數很多都沒有納入管理的情況底下即便今天通過了所謂的登記制"},{"start":11004.634,"end":11024.004,"text":"它有限度的這種限縮的方式也沒有辦法達到一個納管的一個目的也沒有辦法達到一個洗錢防制的一個功能啊部長所以這一點你應該強烈的要求金管會做全面性的一個納管有沒有可能部長你可能對這個業務還不是非常清楚啦齁"},{"start":11025.287,"end":11045.116,"text":"另外還有他們也期望強調要有差異化的管理也就是呢大規模金控呢跟小規模的當鋪呢每一個地方借錢的方式都不太一樣不可能承擔所有的一個管理成本的一個規模部長這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊"},{"start":11046.461,"end":11068.124,"text":"部長這個洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制那剛剛委員有關心的要普遍性的一個納管更深入納管我想這個我們也是有建立過金管會就專法來做有建立過金管會那我接下來請金管會金管會那個組長來那個部長已經有強烈的建議那你們看法怎麼樣"},{"start":11069.172,"end":11073.616,"text":"報告委員其實專法跟就是說這個第6條如果說通過之後的這個執法我們其實兩個案子都有在做委員那有沒有可能全面性的納管?"},{"start":11095.611,"end":11120.791,"text":"其實我們在受理申請不管是現在的法律申請或以後的你們都是個案審查啦 非常局限啦部長都已經跟你們開口了你們金管會要有積極作為啦好不好今天又有這個法條如果通過的話六條之一如果第六條或第六條之一通過的話你們應該要有積極的作為啊不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多嘛也不要讓打詐的這個風氣越來越猖獗嘛好不好"},{"start":11121.511,"end":11148.292,"text":"可以嗎?好,謝謝主席。有請周二來,周秘書長。秘書長,那兩本書還有那些會議資料有沒有收到?有收到,因為跳在中午就職你也可能去,所以我沒有...對啊,因為當天我晚上的時候去住院,那後來隔天又禮拜六禮拜天,也不能送過去啦。那你很清楚我是針對書,不是針對你嘛,對不對?"},{"start":11150.285,"end":11151.546,"text":"那我問一下你有嚇到嗎?"},{"start":11177.311,"end":11189.117,"text":"當時是有一個驚訝而已啦。我不知道怎麼處理這個動作啦。倒沒有,但因為有點刮的傷啦。就是不用帶你去修驚嘛。因為不刺耳啦。我還要問你一個實質的問題好了。"},{"start":11197.025,"end":11218.251,"text":"剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在問說未來的整個立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵也就是說沒有採取記名表格那採取舉手表決的情況底下依照我們立法院目前的這一個紀錄不管是照片也好錄影也好有沒有辦法判別出來哪一些委員是屬於反對的哪一些委員是贊成的有沒有辦法判別除非你是"},{"start":11227.306,"end":11250.339,"text":"對!對!對!議事人員有沒有可能依照這照片來判讀說哪一個人是屬於贊成或反對有沒有可能?如果要真正判決的話,我們以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上面可不可以記錄說哪些人贊成哪些人反對依照舉手表決的情況底下根據判決判斷的一個基礎"},{"start":11252.233,"end":11272.843,"text":"因為舉所表決的方式裡面啦一般來講是不會去考量所以你只會記錄說哪些人總人數哪些人贊成總人數還有哪些人反對總數而已不會用這種方式可是那將來如果找你去那個現場來作證的時候呢你又提供相關資料有沒有辦法作為判決的依據判準的依據"},{"start":11281.113,"end":11291.745,"text":"會有判斷的依據我覺得你要站在一個意識中立的角色不要老是在那邊意識規則轉彎我提醒你你相助過王國瑜你也相助過韓國瑜你要請韓國瑜多學學王國瑜"},{"start":11298.133,"end":11321.893,"text":"好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝周秘書長跟委員會報告依先前徵得委員會同意於11點半處理臨時提案剛剛11點半時間屆滿本席也有宣告不再受理提案也徵詢大家讓郭委員詢答後我們就進行處理那現在處理臨時提案共1案那宣讀後我們再處理請宣讀"},{"start":11323.876,"end":11343.873,"text":"臨時提案一、修正本為確保立法院各種會議在議決法律案、預算案等具法律未接法規範之一案時必須依立法院諮詢刑事法第6條等立法院議事規則第35條、第36條及其他相關規定以具具名表決效力之表決方式進行表決批微戶"},{"start":11344.654,"end":11358.223,"text":"未來若有合憲性爭議時本院委員依憲法訴訟法提出釋憲之申請要件以保障本院解決憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑提案人委員鍾嘉斌、陳俊宇、吳思耀宣讀案比。"},{"start":11360.384,"end":11384.395,"text":"好 那麼因為本席是提案委員我這裡做一個漏就是在倒數第二行以保障本院的那個解決憲政爭議把那個處理解決拿掉了就是以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑多了兩個字那個解決是多的好 那"},{"start":11386.944,"end":11404.82,"text":"針對臨時提案請問機關或有其他意見或說明問機關有沒有沒有的話那我們就請問現場有其他意見來先請羅委員志強再請謝偉榮介再請黃委員國昌再委員小林"},{"start":11415.363,"end":11439.974,"text":"時間3分鐘我覺得主席很認真的提案這點肯定他啦針對主席的這個提案我們待會會來討論但是剛剛主席不受理我四個提案當然是以時間因素啦沒有關係我覺得其實主席這個提案如果能夠考量一同把我這四個提案都送進來一起討論的話我覺得更能彰顯我們這次立法院民進黨的偉大"},{"start":11440.934,"end":11468.158,"text":"我的提案雖然主席說遇時不受理我再唸給大家聽這個有鑒於第一個提案有鑒於日前發生民進黨及立法委員郭國文在議場內公然以暴力搶奪議事人員之文件造成議事人員摔倒之情形原提案立法院院會未來開會時不得再攻擊議事人員這個也很重要舉手表決要不要做很重要這個也很重要"},{"start":11468.598,"end":11496.345,"text":"不要隨便亂打議事人員這樣子不好啦壞習慣第二個提案介於日前發生民進黨籍立委鍾嘉斌爬上主席台對國民黨立委陳金輝事宜兩次衝撞暴行有不當接觸造成女性立委身心受創心生恐懼原提案立法院院會未來議事時不得衝上主席台用暴力行為來延宕議事並要求民進黨立委鍾嘉斌公開向陳金輝委員道歉"},{"start":11497.606,"end":11511.998,"text":"這個我覺得民進黨下來關心女權下來關心性平下來關心性騷如果我們在這邊也能夠來去表決這件事情我覺得也非常有意義不只是舉手投票不要性騷擾很重要第三個就是"},{"start":11512.518,"end":11540.9,"text":"有鑑於日前發生民進黨立委在議場以鎖門身體情報的方式限制立法院長人身自由不僅造成議事延宕而且有性騷擾之餘原提案立法院院會開會之時不得以任何方式來限制立法院院長的人身自由所以基本上我希望大家能夠尊重院長舉手投票很重要要不要討論很重要但是不要一直去"},{"start":11542.742,"end":11557.573,"text":"憋個然後去騷擾我們的立法院院長韓國瑜這個我想也是非常重要啦那另外就是我們國民禮儀條款今天最好也討論一下為什麼呢從小到大大家知道今天我們要進場要排隊啦"},{"start":11559.614,"end":11575.642,"text":"那如果今天如果想要第一個進場的話就早點排隊啦演唱會什麼都是這樣做啦小時候我在讀書的時候在排圖書館也是這樣做啦那國民黨排隊48小時就民進黨竟然是在開場前10分鐘哇 好兇啊 插隊啊"},{"start":11577.583,"end":11593.933,"text":"一路打記者打議事人員打警察打立委一路打進立法院啦這麼雄壯威武的事情我們司法法制委員會難道不比舉手投票要不要舉行重要嗎所以我也建議啦所以我們鄭家彬這個主席今天不來表決這幾樣但是沒關係我口頭告訴大家不要插隊民進黨不要插隊民進黨不要插隊民進黨很重要說三次"},{"start":11607.964,"end":11611.107,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員接下來請謝委員凍結發言足夠依賴阿做菜吃心虛阿阿唔好白白補把泥加污"},{"start":11637.503,"end":11645.69,"text":"在現場抽卡錄時薪人他們還把你們抽到回來說什麼時薪人去抽你們的卡所有國民黨的卡錄給你們拿走一個假手標革國會是要尊重傳統去看一個人英國的國會是怎麼做不用廢毒啦廢毒什麼標革本來就有很多種方式"},{"start":11667.869,"end":11678.396,"text":"難道透費透得白白保障你跟我做什麼、化妙什麼、怕人、化救人這都沒辦法、害怕死誰今天你走出標革這叫做傳統傳統跟創新要並股台灣合情叫做科技之道AI領先全世界"},{"start":11698.667,"end":11721.423,"text":"一）國會標判必須頂這裏就要注意聽咧。我們有新的工具、新的科技、要標判也好。洗錢做一條法律規定說標判要坐在你的桌子上、坐在你的位。沒有。只要議長在內。所以,立法院我建議必須頂,趕快請我們台灣這AI科技大廠"},{"start":11725.239,"end":11730.223,"text":"先對立法院來做一個設計每一個你委屈要簽到後（發一條簽款（這個簽款就是我們台灣的科技（喔（標棺我站在裡面都可以標棺（Yes, No, 我都可以洗（我洗肥皮也可以（而且這條AI呢（是屬於你個人的（喔（你要走手也好（你要用手也好（"},{"start":11752.742,"end":11768.267,"text":"老百姓沒有關你們這裡的立法委員 歐屏康歐到老屏康會也沒關係的 什麼關你們啦但是 標判只要有一個籌款 我要站在標判 我要坐在標判 我只要在立法院我都可以去只要沒有離開議場 離開議場 你的籌款就甘願賣掉 這麼簡單"},{"start":11775.265,"end":11785.253,"text":"每天都要洗這條、洗那條火神不洗背?每天都不弄什麼?洗喀喀是越來越臭啦!不要這樣啦!比較有風度的啦!人家這、銷售尊重得所、銷售獲獎得所"},{"start":11793.749,"end":11794.99,"text":"謝謝謝委員的建議和構想那接下來請黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":11842.519,"end":11871.249,"text":"謝謝主席喔針對民主進步黨立委所提出來的這一個臨時提案要求立法院院會未來討論法律案預算案和條約案時應採用記名的方式表決不得已舉手表決為之那針對這項啊臨時提案不是這個版本那請問是哪個版本可以發給大家嗎"},{"start":11873.567,"end":11888.404,"text":"所以這個版本是什麼時候抽換的?這個是11點半的時候?所以你們要依照立法院職權行使法議事規則以具名表決效力的"},{"start":11890.219,"end":11909.299,"text":"表決方式進行表決然後維護未來有憲政爭議的時候然後以保障什麼途徑針對這個提案的內容等一下是不是可以請立法院的秘書長周萬來表示一下意見因為"},{"start":11912.419,"end":11929.488,"text":"對於立法院議事規則35條所承認合法表決的方式可不可以透過臨時提案的方式予以變更這個是法制上面的重大作業喔如果今天"},{"start":11930.629,"end":11955.142,"text":"今天要透過臨時提案的方式就可以變更立法院的議事規則的話那以後關於立法院議事規則審議的程序是不是就被空洞化掉了是不是就被空洞化掉了我覺得這個是最關鍵的核心問題第二個我必須要說明的是為什麼"},{"start":11958.001,"end":11977.851,"text":"會被逼到用舉手表決今天如果沒有人要攻擊主席台妨礙議事的正常運作如果今天沒有人要破壞表決器甚至把其他委員的表決卡抽走破壞整個表決器表決的方式"},{"start":11985.302,"end":12012.586,"text":"哪一個立法委員不希望坐在自己的位置上好好的進行表決記表決你不能夠說一方面我想要去干擾議事的進行我要攻佔主席台我要讓院長讓主席沒有辦法主持會議另外一方面要求別人你如果想投票你要乖乖的坐在位置上"},{"start":12013.973,"end":12025.836,"text":"天底下沒有這種道理意識規則不是為民主進步黨而創設的意識規則也不是民主進步黨想幹嘛就幹嘛以上"},{"start":12028.55,"end":12057.545,"text":"謝謝黃委員剛剛黃委員又重新把一些條文念了一遍一些提案文念了一遍那謝謝黃委員提醒剛剛在宣讀的時候我先把它說明一下第1、2、3、4、5第5行以據記名表決應該是別字據記名表決效力不是據記名表決效力這邊做個修正那因為剛剛有翁委員登記發言還有吳世耀委員登記發言是不是我們請要發言的委員先表示一下我依序讓大家發言接下來請翁委員小聲"},{"start":12057.705,"end":12059.846,"text":"我看到今天主席的臨時提案讓我真的是覺得這個不可思議"},{"start":12078.399,"end":12106.658,"text":"會議要討論有關於具名表決的這個方式基本上我認為他有兩個大問題第一個就像剛剛前面黃國昌委員所說的一個委員會議的決議就可以去推翻立法院議事規則嗎在我們立法院議事規則第35條規定的非常清楚議案表決的方式總共有五種口頭表決、舉手表決、表決器表決、投票表決以及點名表決"},{"start":12108.299,"end":12128.997,"text":"舉手表決它就是一個合法的表決方式不要以文害意喔投票是一定要有那個票嗎我們舉手它就是一個最古老最傳統最公開直接透明的一個表達每個委員個人自己意見立場的方式舉手表決這個是"},{"start":12134.875,"end":12146.42,"text":"就像我們講這是個最直接的民主的方式喔那麼是後來因為有現代科技發展然後讓大家委員們可以輕鬆一點坐在委員位置上面這個案這個表決器表決這有什麼不對我要再說今天這個之前吳士堯委員在那裡講什麼這個拿這個表決卡的事情"},{"start":12160.956,"end":12187.514,"text":"剛剛楊瓊英委員播的那段影片就是我本人用手機當場錄下的我在第一時間看到民進黨的幾位女立委直接從我的面前拿走我同伴我的這個委員同志的這個表決卡簡直是不可思議他們怎麼可能會有這樣的一個行為他們有尊重別的委員的職權行使嗎"},{"start":12189.534,"end":12215.648,"text":"他們有尊重議事人員以及把所有的卡都插在上面他們可以這麼做嗎我必須說民進黨的立法院黨團我認為以後可以改以後可以有一個另外一個這個匿名叫做強盜黨團他們既搶周外來秘書長的這個資料文件也搶這個我們其他委員的表決卡嚴重的破壞民主程序"},{"start":12216.856,"end":12237.449,"text":"議事程序那麼不要二人先告狀我們在講這個民主只要要一看一個國家的民主素養就要看這個國家的立法委員的這個行為表現我們一直在說君子動口不動手可是我們看到立法院民進黨委員的所作所為都是先動手"},{"start":12238.707,"end":12254.12,"text":"他們什麼時候變成了全角政府全角黨團我在這裡真的感到非常遺憾希望就是之後我們立法院可能還必須要更嚴格的修改我們的立法院的議事規則要嚴禁這種拿別人搶奪搶到別人表決卡的行為"},{"start":12262.253,"end":12277.545,"text":"好,那麼在吳思耀委員發言後,我們請周秘書長答覆,那再請莊瑞雄委員繼續發言。你先,對不起。來,在那個周秘書長答覆之後,請副委員再來莊委員。好,請那個吳思耀委員請。"},{"start":12282.3,"end":12310.299,"text":"主席各位同仁我難得非常同意剛剛幾位委員的論述但是就更好我們可以還好好來看看誰是前後今天說一套然後平時又做另外一套剛剛兩位法學博士黃國昌跟王小林都提到說依據立法院的議事規則可以用一個委員會的決議來超越議事規則嗎"},{"start":12312.54,"end":12336.556,"text":"這個問題很好那你們先去問一問可以用修法來超越憲法嗎?你們現在所推動的立法院職權行使法沒有關係黃國昌你繼續跑繼續你的善效沒有問題要繼續離場不要落跑回來聽我講啊法學博士只會落跑翁小玲也不要跑啊我會講到你啊"},{"start":12337.958,"end":12354.583,"text":"所以呢現在國民黨民眾黨所提的國會擴權法案就是用法律來超越憲法不是嗎?剛剛黃國昌說不要讓法制空洞化那麼你們的作為不是讓憲法空洞化嗎?第二個羅志強委員說"},{"start":12356.684,"end":12378.491,"text":"因為他們沒有跟上今天主席宣告多次11點半的這個登記臨時提案的時間所以他們的4個案子沒有辦法今天來併案審查那我們覺得尊重下一次還有下一次的委員會其實羅委員的幾個提案都可以在下次委員會再透過臨時提案再提出這個程序上是沒有問題的"},{"start":12379.591,"end":12383.532,"text":"但如果羅委員這麼重視他的案子沒有被併案的話那羅委員應當將心比心現在的國會擴權的法案國民黨只審國民黨民眾黨的版本民進黨的國會增改革的4個法案完全沒有辦法被併案審查完全沒有辦法被併案協商所以就併案論併案國民黨想要併案的時候就要併案"},{"start":12407.779,"end":12410.545,"text":"然後不想讓民進黨的版本一起來審查的時候就拒絕併案這是什麼樣的邏輯跟道理"},{"start":12415.762,"end":12435.474,"text":"好講到我們鍾嘉斌召委如果那天在肢體的推擠當中對於其他委員有產生肢體上的衝撞鍾委員已經親自多次的道歉而且清楚的說明絕非故意如果國民黨這麼重視國會反性騷那為什麼不讓民進黨的MeToo條款"},{"start":12441.597,"end":12444.699,"text":"立法院委員立法委員習委法能夠併案審查能夠一起在我們的議事審議的程序當中來落實國會的改革真正的從制度面來反性騷呢?國民黨為什麼不審民進黨的反性騷條款呢?"},{"start":12458.186,"end":12472.224,"text":"又說到有沒有人偷卡翁小林委員走了我實在很想說給他聽剛剛就在今天早上國民黨團的記者會翁小林委員自己說漏嘴他那天偷了民進黨兩個委員的卡"},{"start":12474.787,"end":12492.31,"text":"王小林委員今天早上在國民黨的記者會所有的發言都被拍下來記錄了誰偷卡王小林委員自己說他偷了民進黨或是抽了民進黨兩位委員的表決卡最後回到這個提案的主題"},{"start":12493.464,"end":12512.72,"text":"我們反對舉手表決我們要求記名表決不是為了議事方便不方便技術如何如何而是為了每一個議案國會議員要對歷史負責如果不採取表決器表決卡按鈕表決歷史上誰能夠誰去記載誰支持了國會的擴權"},{"start":12517.403,"end":12545.468,"text":"誰支持了對人民查水表的條款誰支持了這種無限上綱的藐視國會罪透過記名表決是對歷史負責羅志強委員您回來了你剛剛講到演唱會我非常喜歡演唱會你知道嗎在場外抗議的年輕人他們拿著的這個海報說現在連演唱會購票都要實名制了立法院表決居然不用記名投票"},{"start":12546.788,"end":12562.78,"text":"講演唱會就講演唱會現在連演唱會都要推實名制了那為什麼立法院的委員表決不敢記名投票我剛剛質詢的時候跟私下的時間我有問了州外來委員表決卡有沒有備卡有沒有空卡"},{"start":12564.229,"end":12591.347,"text":"秘書長說是有的,既然有備卡有空卡,如果有任何表決卡發生遺失的狀況,那難道不能趕快來做處理嗎?謝榮介有人說台灣是科技之島,對阿!台灣是科技之島阿!所以立法院的表決卡難道因為有所遺失就不能夠有備卡跟空卡嗎?這是什麼科技?"},{"start":12594.429,"end":12597.453,"text":"先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至臨時提案處理完畢所有登記發言委員詢答結束"},{"start":12610.668,"end":12627.034,"text":"並將報告事項所列預算解凍書面報告案處理完畢及討論事項法案條文宣讀完畢為止。接著我們就請因為應委員要求請周秘書長來做回應因為好幾位委員提到"},{"start":12630.116,"end":12652.446,"text":"時間3分鐘主席各位委員大概修正版本我是看過了但一概而言就是說議事規則裡面的這五款第一款三十五條第一款跟第四款是由主席決定宣告這是主席的權利現行的規則是主席的權利"},{"start":12653.726,"end":12674.539,"text":"以目前來講第5款裡面點名表決才會由委員提出來然後再由主席進行表決目前是這樣修正版本要不要這樣去處理我個人並沒有表示意見是由大家委員去合意"},{"start":12675.519,"end":12699.314,"text":"至於一直提到這個因為剛才郭文有提到一個以將來的宣傳輸送法裏面的室溫之一的問題我想大概應該司法院他們當然會從49樓去看我這就不再說明因為這跟我們沒有很大關聯性至於卡的問題當然我們會有備卡"},{"start":12701.795,"end":12703.977,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。namon"},{"start":12719.787,"end":12720.848,"text":"好接下來有登記的是副總召發言請"},{"start":12749.783,"end":12777.921,"text":"今天我想我們討論這個議題非常有意思周萬來周秘書長周秘書長我想比較重要在這裡未來相關委員所提出來的建議我想都可以討論那剛剛謝榮介謝委員所提出的本席覺得真的立法院要與時俱進"},{"start":12779.977,"end":12802.723,"text":"因為現在在立法院裡面的各種行為啊偷拐蒙騙啊樣樣都有但是表決是非常神聖的事情我想今天鍾嘉賓、趙偉也提出了這個問題我們在這裡正式討論我想這也是好事啦那既然要討論的話未來有什麼樣一次解決的方式其實早就應該進行了"},{"start":12804.503,"end":12820.73,"text":"所以到底進了立法院以後是不是人人人手上就有一份屬於自己各個委員在行使自己職權該有的一些科技的裝備啊我想早就應該跟上時代不過在這裡對於表決方式"},{"start":12821.79,"end":12837.735,"text":"是不是韓院長可以來主持來決定事實上議事規則裡面寫得非常清楚本來舉手表決就可以由院長直接來裁示那對於外面講到很多各種不同的說法"},{"start":12838.752,"end":12866.652,"text":"我們還是要在這裡要澄清在國會有191有292雖然各種謠言滿天抹黑各種假消息假訊息不斷的在散播但是我們要清楚的表達立法院各個委員會到今天為止甚至待會兒鍾嘉賓、昭偉所提出的臨時提案都是大家舉手表決"},{"start":12868.818,"end":12896.294,"text":"這裡也沒有辦法擦卡表決也沒有辦法做其他的表決最常用的就是舉手表決立法院從有立法院到今天為止都在舉手表決走到國外有800年民主歷史的英國英國國會到現在都是舉手表決更重要的是全世界共同聯合的在一起的聯合國也是舉手表決"},{"start":12897.423,"end":12923.774,"text":"我想剛剛啊特別強調一個重點因為院長還是有他的苦衷韓院長本期要在這裡清楚再一次表達為什麼非要用舉手表決第一個禮拜五院會的時候民進黨立委當場竊取國民黨立委的表決卡"},{"start":12925.36,"end":12950.903,"text":"竊取之後然後又指責翁小林委員所有去抽兩張民進黨的卡事實上翁小林委員抽的卡是有交給議事人員是交給議事人員而民進黨抽的卡幾位委員竊取國民黨的表決卡是把它藏起來讓議事人員找不到這些卡"},{"start":12951.949,"end":12976.898,"text":"所以當天是發生有竊盜的行為而且並沒有交給議事人員才讓院長決定要來用舉手表決更重要的事情是在不管是禮拜二的協商當中還是原本今天下午要的協商當中就希望這個柯建民柯總召"},{"start":12978.359,"end":12994.535,"text":"本朱國會議事和諧遵守議事規則立法委員的行為要可受公平希望大家能夠支持接受民進黨"},{"start":12996.175,"end":13023.204,"text":"所提出的要求用表有決器表決就是大家都坐在位置上表決本席也欣然同意但是要請柯建民、柯總召堅持拒絕大家一致同意坐在位置上表決不責不得欽贊主席台不讓韓國瑜院長主持會議但是很抱歉柯建民、柯總召悍然拒絕簽署"},{"start":13025.863,"end":13042.799,"text":"這樣的一個這個抄以現場的決議讓大家沒有辦法坐在位子上表決也沒有辦法用X卡表決我們把事實還原真相但是我還是很謝謝鍾嘉賓這個鍾昭偉可能未來是民進黨的鍾總昭"},{"start":13046.183,"end":13061.761,"text":"這個最近表現表現得非常大今天也提出這個臨時提案本行政很高興啊因為畢竟這個提案今天在這裡還是要做舉手表決然後做一個決定那未來如果在委員會提的臨時提案可以改變議事規則的話"},{"start":13063.863,"end":13084.81,"text":"本席也欣然接受啦那以後我們都在委員會來做決定也可以少數服從多數好謝謝謝謝副總召因為說明一下那麼在委員會的會議我們還是依照立法院議事規則第35條第36條依照這5種的表決方式行之再次的說明那接下來呢是由莊委員瑞雄要進行發言請時間3分鐘"},{"start":13104.514,"end":13124.241,"text":"響鐘響鐘響鐘"},{"start":13124.361,"end":13150.754,"text":"看看大家說的都參考用的,也很難去遵循有時候真的是議題還沒有講完,剛才比較久的一直說的,也都合理我剛剛國民黨委員的幾個說明以後上來的講法我是有點感慨立法院只要早上你看還沒有進到議場的時候每一個人都是正常的人"},{"start":13152.496,"end":13180.275,"text":"進到議場在簽到以後立法院呢小人一堆委員都亂講你像比如說剛我們羅志強委員我看他就語意裡面他就贊成了鍾佳斌這個提案只是說他多想加入他幾個提案這個都是好事但是聽完以後啊今天其實大家幾乎都是在講口水啦你像比如說大家談到說到底誰是偷"},{"start":13181.095,"end":13196.685,"text":"立法院的表決卡不管哪一個政黨的委員去拿到那個表決卡我也不認為是偷啦在場有吳宗憲委員有這麼多法制人員竊盜啊你就看竊盜這320條的規定啊這竊取他人之物啊他人之動產啊那個都不是竊取"},{"start":13204.97,"end":13231.081,"text":"這樣我看來啊其實吳宗憲委員很清楚啊那個都是議事攻防啊只是說到底要不要約束做的有沒有超過黃捷委員拿了那個表決卡以後是交給議事人員啦有啦你去看一下影片啦那個影片都有看的不要每一個人去擷取片段到這個地方你找謝榮傑我也覺得他的提案很好啊雖然謝榮傑來到禮拜年以後都胡說八道但是我覺得聽起來很爽啊我也覺得聽起來很爽啊"},{"start":13234.82,"end":13245.969,"text":"啊剛剛 給我轉動一下 給我轉動一下 來你來給我轉動一下 這個畫面如果齁一般人都認為說他是不是具有攻擊性不會啊 我說他是臉臭臭的 不然你也笑一下 我在講話你也笑一下"},{"start":13260.64,"end":13286.586,"text":"我現在就是要幫你捧場他剛剛有一個提案我倒是非常覺得非常好大家考慮一下他說喔台灣是一個高科技之島掛一個手鍊就好以後喔那個只要感受到的就可以代表你是只有說表決而已你說不夠不不不你這樣不夠你在台南總是稍微是腦袋瓜有點不清楚屏東的就很清楚因為我比較遠"},{"start":13288.769,"end":13314.627,"text":"你聽我說,你說你這個提案不夠清楚啦我這個屏東的就會覺得那個距離要再拉長齁你過去齁你都說你剛提案高科技要就創一個可以這樣感受的就算可以表決了嘛齁你就整天簽名欸可以只要感受到就算簽名了就不用每天在那邊搭高鐵可以做得到啦啊你這樣你有給我贊成就對了要在院區裡面才感應得到啦我告訴你我們兩個都校尉啊你知道嗎"},{"start":13316.628,"end":13343.566,"text":"我要講的就是說你幫你整個樣子臉這麼瘋狂啦都一口水啦中委員的那個我是倒覺得重要的意義在什麼地方呢?立法院議事規則第35條第一項裡面其實我們的表決有兩種你抽象來看真的是只有兩種一種叫做記名一種叫做不記名那你不記名的話你口頭表決當然是不記名不記名當然也是不記名那你表決器就是一種記名"},{"start":13344.686,"end":13360.461,"text":"點名表決也是一種記名記名投票也是一種記名那就怪了就是說你舉手表決你怎麼去定義他的問題各位偉大的政治家其實都可以討論但是相互攻防輸的比較賣"},{"start":13363.578,"end":13366.282,"text":"人們在說你們成絕身份時,我也覺得比較有可能啦。眾目睽睽之下,我也覺得比較不會說的那個是蘇林的。鍾嘉斌委員那一天那個議事公報裡面,國民黨已經跟他講了幾次什麼他性騷。"},{"start":13376.786,"end":13382.531,"text":"我們議場全部的媒體都在那裡。你們就不可以看他是要被起立、被人殺下來、有鑽在那裡倒下去。他衝他那人報到那個,不是翁小玲那個是陳委員嘛。那個怎麼會是姓邵嘛。這個就是睜著眼睛說瞎話嘛。當事人當然會不舒服。不舒服總裁品委員也去道歉了。你們糾結在這裡。"},{"start":13402.07,"end":13413.952,"text":"這個就是離開議場以後那個要放下,這樣不好啦,亂到這樣。你們在課堂裡面大家是當老師的,難道這個議事工坊學生看到以後會跟你說老師這樣好棒棒嗎?"},{"start":13415.916,"end":13438.821,"text":"都必須 都必須 大家來搞禮拜年 大家說刺激激啊 那是上臂上比較壞 不用這樣嘛 還有上面人比上面人比較壞 有啊 你每一個人都背負著民意到這邊來啊 可是問題是進來以後都走路一樣了 立法院真正我覺得有必要修的大家可以建議一下 憲法規定的立法院言論免責權喔 時代不一樣啦 這條把它修掉啦 這條修掉就好玩啦 立法院就不要這樣胡說八道啦 你看 副本局也給他按贊"},{"start":13446.516,"end":13449.198,"text":"他有沒有人要表示意見?"},{"start":13469.848,"end":13496.077,"text":"這樣子啦齁那個在場委員在場委員因為我大概說明一下齁因為這個提案齁我聽了各位委員的心因為我身為提案人我跟大家說明齁這裡面還是有一些要補充的齁就是為確保立法院的意識的公正啦我想意識公正還是要寫上去啦立法院公正在各種會議議決啦齁因為齁我們是委員會啦我再講一次齁為確保立法院"},{"start":13496.957,"end":13519.056,"text":"之議事公正啦齁議事公正放在立法院的之議事公正在各種委員會議決法律案預算案等據法律未接法規範之議案時啦那我想齁這裡說明齁因為我們是委員會那委員會做的決議我們只是各種會議之中的一種那所以呢這樣的一個"},{"start":13520.596,"end":13535.093,"text":"決定一個臨時提案如果通過了他是為了確保立法院之意識公正那麼在議決有限定喔法律案預算案這些具有法律未接的法規範只有在這些"},{"start":13536.257,"end":13555.879,"text":"案子在議決的時候那我們才是根據立法院職員刑事法制第6條完全沒有去超越還是那第6條就是以過半數同意為之那議事規則第35、36條它分別的規定了可決的額數和表決的方式那表決的方式陳如各位委員所指教的就一共有5種"},{"start":13556.9,"end":13584.118,"text":"那這五種呢根據第三層的規定就是第一口頭表決第二舉手表決第三表決器表決第四投票表決第五點名表決那本委員會過去呢向來因為我們沒有表決器所以呢我們也沒有用口頭表決我們都是用舉手表決的方式那有在吳釗偉的時候呢也有曾經通過用點名表決那舉手表決跟點名表決的差別在於說點名表決可以確認"},{"start":13585.259,"end":13607.372,"text":"啊具有濟民的效果那因為呢這些預算案法律案或者條約案在未來啊如果有合憲爭議的時候根據憲法輸送法我們必須要能夠確定是誰投了贊成還是反對所以呢我這邊再強調一次我們只是一啊為了確保立法院意識之公正啊之意識公正"},{"start":13608.432,"end":13618.878,"text":"我們在各種委員會包括就本委員會那我們當然這裡只能就本委員會在議決法律案預算等這些議案的時候要依據這6條36條以具記名表決效力的表決方式為之啦"},{"start":13624.298,"end":13645.888,"text":"那這個是確保我們議事人員在登記這次的議決的過程每一位行使表決權的委員他是贊成反對以記名的方式能夠被呈現出來那這才能未來萬一有需要的一個合憲爭議的時候我們才能確保在"},{"start":13647.774,"end":13654.559,"text":"處理的時候能確保沒有委員的這個情況。好那以上說明。好那是不是委員我們要不要進行就也還發言了嗎?好來請黃委員請。"},{"start":13660.424,"end":13679.999,"text":"沒有我不是要發言我只是要進行一個簡單的那個會議詢問這個會議詢問的內容是針對目前所提出來的臨時提案我們是不是能夠按照以前處理臨時提案的方式針對臨時提案內容的變更提出修正的建議"},{"start":13682.117,"end":13710.649,"text":"我們剛剛發言是要請大家來表示意見。那我現在是可以正式的針對這個臨時提案內容文字的變更提出文字修正建議嗎?請提出,那我們等你提。那委員在這段時間在這段時間有沒有文字上啦,謝謝。那是不是印給大家?"},{"start":13711.991,"end":13713.552,"text":"為確保立法院之議事公正"},{"start":13734.659,"end":13744.685,"text":"在各種會議、議決法律案、預算案等據法律會接法規範制議案時必須依立法院職權新司法第6條、立法院議事規則第3屬條第3條及其他相關規定以據記名表決"},{"start":13752.27,"end":13768.092,"text":"效力之表決方式進行表決必維護未來若有合憲性爭議時本院委員依憲法訴訟法提出釋憲之申請要件以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑"},{"start":13769.073,"end":13793.45,"text":"且未確保會議進行之合法性之合憲性各黨團應切結不得已攻佔主席台阻礙院長副院長或副院長主持會議或強行抽走表決卡之方式破壞會議之合法合憲進行"},{"start":13795.373,"end":13822.494,"text":"那個我們請印給大家啦齁我念過請印給大家那在印給大家的過程我說明一下齁因為我強調一次齁因為呢這個內容啊請各位委員瞭解齁因為我們只是司法委員會的一份子那我們所做的雖然上面講到了各種會議但是因為呢在我們本委員會啊我們是屬於院會授權"},{"start":13823.655,"end":13844.347,"text":"做審查的一個部門一個單單元所以呢我們基本上的我們的決定是以我們委員會來遵循吶所以我覺得有點跟黃委員說明因為我們做的決定是跟委員會因為我們不可能那如果說我們要做成決議跟院會建議那我是建請黃委員吼是不是另外寫一個跟院會的建議案"},{"start":13845.647,"end":13860.857,"text":"那我們再來處理那因為我剛剛所講的純粹是就各種會議當中為了確保我們的意識公正性在處理相關具有法律案或預算的時候我們要有一個記名表決效力的表決方式大概這樣的說明那請換委員檢查那請"},{"start":13863.968,"end":13881.789,"text":"我同意要確保整個會議的合法性跟合憲性以及事後的司法審查因為司法審查的範圍包括會議進行當中是不是有符合相關的規範"},{"start":13883.27,"end":13898.788,"text":"會不會破壞憲政民主的秩序這個是憲法法庭在針對國會自立事項在進行核限性審查的時候所必要審查的要素那也正是因為這個樣子啊"},{"start":13900.349,"end":13923.366,"text":"為了要確保本院在議事進行當中所為的表決具有合法性也可以通過憲法法庭未來合憲性的審查那顯然我們要關注的事項就不僅僅是到底是不是用字名還是哪一種特定的表決方式"},{"start":13924.207,"end":13946.784,"text":"我們必須要關注的事項還有這個會議是不是合法合憲的進行如果會議要能夠合法合憲的進行的話不要攻佔主席台阻礙院長或副院長主持議事程序不要去偷抽其他立法委員的表決卡"},{"start":13948.113,"end":13964.221,"text":"導致其他立法委員在行使憲法所賦予的職權的時候遭到外力不當的阻礙這個都攸關於立法院所為的立法行為在憲法法庭"},{"start":13964.941,"end":13982.023,"text":"是不是能夠判定這一個會議通過核限性審查的必要要件因此我們針對剛剛鍾嘉賓委員所提出來的那樣子的一個臨時提案在後面更完整的"},{"start":13982.523,"end":14002.791,"text":"就要確保合法合憲性提出修正的文字我們認為並無不妥那至於說到底是妥還是不妥這件事情我覺得應該是交由司法法制委員會現在已經出席的委員來共同決定而不是主席一個才是以上"},{"start":14003.431,"end":14003.912,"text":"因為臨時提案一﹖"},{"start":14028.339,"end":14055.717,"text":"好的提案是在講這個記名表決的方式但是剛剛黃國昌委員他試圖要用修正的文字但是去處理了一個另外兩個前提不一樣的東西如果黃國昌委員要再提下面這個部分他應該是另外再提一個臨時提案的而且要許你你你你剛剛宣誓的那個宣告的那個提案時間因為黃委員後面加的這一大段跟你前面在講記名表決有什麼有什麼直接的關聯啊"},{"start":14058.447,"end":14070.152,"text":"所以現在他們用不同的修正文字其實就是在那就另外提一個新的臨時提案啊阿詢臨時提案的程序啊不然這樣沒完沒了啊"},{"start":14072.043,"end":14094.811,"text":"所以我一看就覺得這根本基本把你的原始提案的後面那麼加一大堆而且跟你原本的提議你很簡單嘛你就講說就是表決方式而已嘛後面扯到要不要公佔主席台要不要怎樣有沒有人抽走表決卡我都同意不公佔表決那個主席台啊我絕對同意啊但是是誰去公佔主席台誰昨天半夜又開始去那邊排隊了"},{"start":14095.911,"end":14096.451,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":14096.451,"end":14124.345,"text":"然後黃委員說不可以去抽走表決卡我也絕對同意啊我們就是討厭別人抽走表決卡現在是國民黨抽走別人的表決卡我都同意這兩個啊那你就去弄另外的臨時提案啊它是一個案或兩個案啊因為完全把你的本質都改掉了欸你的提案很簡單是在講表決方式後面又居然什麼公站主席台全部要貨在同一個提案另外循程去提新的臨時提案這樣才對"},{"start":14125.265,"end":14154.324,"text":"好,謝謝委員我這樣正要說明因為呢後面的文字內容有跟本委員會有些有見的部分第一個是那個公站主席台其實我們過去在委員會有發生的是站聚主席台就是這個地方然後呢防礙院長副院長因為我們在委員會這個院長副院長大概不是指本委員會的會議那表決卡也不在本委員會的使用範疇所以是不是黃委員考慮一下這個內容文字上我們現在講的是"},{"start":14156.046,"end":14169.935,"text":"各種會議就當然以本委員會來談我們的處理重要議案的表決的方式那還是依照我們現有的議事規則跟職權刑事法的方式為之還是"},{"start":14172.057,"end":14194.396,"text":"剛剛這是一點意見啦您可以參考因為我們這裡沒有表決卡我們這裡也沒有院長副院長我們也沒有什麼公站主席台過去只有主席主持的時候大家在主席台前情況比較混亂而已那是不是委員還要針對剛剛的文字修正部分提出意見來先請羅委員再來翁委員我也要提文字修正"},{"start":14196.192,"end":14218.03,"text":"我覺得我們眾嘉賓委員很認真用心他說要用據名表決我覺得非常好但是為了考量我們議事順暢我覺得應該要有一個前提設定所以我建議在第二段的就第二行的據法律未接規範之議案10這個10前面加上一段文字"},{"start":14219.051,"end":14243.248,"text":"在沒有立法委員或任何人為干擾癱瘓意識欲佔據主席台以及偷竊強盜其他立委表決卡以致無法進行投票器表決主席必須以舉手投票的維持意識情況時那你就可以介紹後面的居民表決因為事實上我們必須考量所有的情況嘛"},{"start":14244.189,"end":14246.371,"text":"舉名表決很好阿 非常棒阿但只要說沒有什麼一個那種無賴政黨想要去攻主席台癱瘓議事或者是無賴政黨去搶人家的表決卡在我情況之下當然大大方方任何表決方式我都同意阿"},{"start":14260.302,"end":14276.056,"text":"可是如果這兩件事情發生你已經沒有辦法進行表決了那當然按照議事規矩用舉手表決我覺得是很好的方式所以為周延起見這個提案要讓他更具憲政跟立法高度的意義我建議把以上的文字加上去謝謝"},{"start":14278.188,"end":14299.626,"text":"好不好,因為齁,剛剛有人遞了一個文字修正。是不是我們休息幾分鐘,議事人員把他篡寫清楚,我們才有辦法處理,好不好。我們先休息兩分鐘,那之後我們再問委員。那我們把那個文字齁,騰清楚,大家才有辦法處理。因為這樣文字不清楚齁,接下來要不要怎麼討論。先讓大家休息一下,休息兩分鐘,去上個洗手間。"},{"start":14302.81,"end":14312.71,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共4案。 Minne（一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne（一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne（一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":14314.193,"end":14326.684,"text":"一、處理1、處理2、處理3、處理4、處理5、處理6、處理7、處理8、處理9、處理10、處理11、處理12、處理13、處理13、處理14、處理14、處理15、處理16、處理17、處理18、處理19、處理20、處理21、處理22、處理23、處理23、處理24、處理24、處理25、處理26、處理27、處理28、處理29、處理30、處理31、處理31、處理32、處理32、處理33、處理33、處理33、處理34、處理34、處理34、處理35、處理35、處理36、處理36、處理36、處理37、處理38、處理39、處理40、處理40、處理40、處理"},{"start":14333.73,"end":14353.731,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹗一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目"},{"start":14360.896,"end":14377.985,"text":"我看如果大家爭議這麼多就讓後面的那個議員請說他說要先走了先趕快表決一下就結束了都已經這樣就表決一下就結束了就表決啦"},{"start":14382.167,"end":14386.93,"text":"都已經開始了為什麼不表決?沒關係我們先提修正公義以後就表決"},{"start":14398.581,"end":14422.719,"text":"我覺得他會故意脫起來沒有關係阿他要脫你沒辦法我覺得故意阿是阿因為表決一定會出網就故意脫他也人也可以跑掉阿再去休息三小時幹嘛對不對你也拿他沒辦法他也可以人跑掉三小時再回來對啊不是阿你自己提案他他表決吧"},{"start":14425.339,"end":14453.852,"text":"好我們繼續開會由於我們的登記發言委員還有包括黃委員跟葉委員還有報告事項的解凍案還有我們的法案條件宣讀那我們這案就暫不處理那我們接下來就有請黃國昌委員發言這樣不對吧你提了臨時提案自己又不處理自己的提案不好啦表決一下馬上就結束不用3分鐘好啊這樣就收回去不好啦可以可以我們事前你當時也這樣子不好不好看啊你的提案啊今天不再處理"},{"start":14455.114,"end":14466.209,"text":"為了讓確認今天不再處理今天不再處理來那個黃委員你要發言勒現在接下來請黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":14468.424,"end":14483.979,"text":"哎,我們大家在那邊要等表決不給我們表決。這麼好的提案我都支持了。欸,每次都反對自己的提案。對啊,每次都反對自己的提案我不能理解啊。"},{"start":14494.415,"end":14495.936,"text":"確保Tag沒有問題吧?蛤?"},{"start":14522.765,"end":14537.557,"text":"下面拍不到。不好意思。再給我30秒就好了。我稍微調整一下。你要請哪一位上來。我先請他上來。再開始時間。不好意思。要請哪一位?上來我們時間再說。我不好意思讓部長在這邊。要請部長嗎?對。是。請那個部長。有請部長。正部長。還有沒有?就部長。就部長。可以了嗎?委員好。請。"},{"start":14554.844,"end":14575.229,"text":"部長好今天我們要審議洗錢防制法我相信最主要的理由就是因為幫詐騙洗錢太嚴重了我們要強化整個有關於不罰洗錢行為的規範密度跟廣度對不對是好在整個詐騙之所以會這麼猖獗"},{"start":14578.925,"end":14605.294,"text":"不法的所得之所以難以追回是不是就是因為洗錢所導致的我們是希望能夠犯罪的不法所得能夠查出來查扣然後花還給被害人那不然的話就是要宣告沒收除了把不法所得追回來之外我們應不應該嚴懲幫助不法所得洗錢的人"},{"start":14607.612,"end":14631.303,"text":"這是我們的目標,立法目標這是立法目標嘛,好那這個立法的目標啊有沒有獲得實踐啊我們就要具體的看因為今天洗錢防制法的修正關於洗錢行為的定義在第二條裡面在第二條裡面重新的做文字的修正嘛有哪三種洗錢的樣態可不可以請部長稍微說明一下"},{"start":14637.677,"end":14663.937,"text":"在第二條的部分我們是參考德國的一個立法例齁那在我想這個部分可以讓我們在洗錢的這個定義更加的一個明確齁因為我們是那所以是哪三種樣態看我PPT就可以了啦部長我PPT寫的絕對不會錯啦就是一個隱害演示型齁就是PPT想的演示型的"},{"start":14664.588,"end":14692.785,"text":"也是行第一種嘛還有勒還有就是阻礙型的跟隔絕型的跟危害型最後才隔絕型嘛好來我們來看一下具體的例子喔被害人被詐騙了以後把金錢交付給這個洗錢犯的首腦詐騙集團的首腦這個詐騙集團的首腦拿了這個錢去跟酒商買了昂貴的酒然後呢"},{"start":14694.239,"end":14716.261,"text":"這個首腦跟A共謀把這批酒給藏起來這個是不是洗錢的行為這是一個洗錢的行為這是一個洗錢的行為嗎非常好講得很明確所以我們這一次在洗錢防制法當中針對隱匿特定犯罪所得或掩飾其來源"},{"start":14717.162,"end":14733.63,"text":"所謂隱匿型的部分來請部長看一下喔就你剛剛所講的參考德國刑法261條第一項第一句的演示型洗錢犯罪我們過去在主觀要件上把它定位成是意圖犯嘛"},{"start":14736.405,"end":14755.414,"text":"現在我們不用意圖犯按照你們修法理由除了客觀上有隱匿或掩飾的行為而且主觀上只要知悉或可得知悉財務或財產上的利益是特定犯罪所得就構成了洗錢是不是"},{"start":14755.894,"end":14778.49,"text":"好 所以你這裡知悉或可得知悉你是把主觀要件降到未必故意還是把主觀要件降到過失我們認為這是一個抽象危險犯只要這個行為的話我們就認為有洗錢的意思抽象危險犯我了解現在我在問你的是主觀要件的部分這是故意犯嘛這是故意犯那可得而可得知悉是什麼意思然後你看一下"},{"start":14779.551,"end":14807.953,"text":"你們的修法理由可得自信就是未必故意可得自信是未必故意嘛好非常好那我今天啊就要公開跟部長我公開檢舉啊一個幫詐欺犯的首腦啊洗錢的行為這批酒是當初我在擔任台灣公益階壁及吹哨者保護協會的時候我在幫IMB的被害人去追出來的酒因為"},{"start":14810.151,"end":14834.744,"text":"詐騙集團的首腦曾耀峰用詐騙的所得去買了一拖拉鼓的酒藏在一個地方當初有被害人跟我講說有這批酒但他們不知道在哪裡那個時候被害人劇狀請北檢的檢察官去追查北檢的檢察官查不出來"},{"start":14836.226,"end":14845.602,"text":"我後來我自己請我協會的同仁去查這批酒在哪裡查到這批酒以後我拍了照"},{"start":14847.876,"end":14870.601,"text":"舉狀跟台北地檢署的檢察官呈報因為我沒有公權力嘛我不能搜索扣押嘛我能夠做的就是告訴北檢的檢察官酒在這裡請你們去扣押收到我這個呈報狀以後過了幾天北檢的檢察官也真的去扣了這批酒現在這批酒已經被變賣掉了"},{"start":14872.394,"end":14892.567,"text":"變賣所得的金錢也發還給被害人了重點是我們追回了不答我們追回了不法所得但協助隱匿這個不法犯罪所得的所有參與人是不是有被訴追刑事責任這件事情部長你覺得重不重要"},{"start":14897.725,"end":14923.112,"text":"所以我才要公開檢舉嘛因為當初這個酒藏匿的地點是前行政院政務顧問陳振坤他實際所掌控的旅館的地下室那因此陳振坤在台北地檢署IMB起訴書裡面他依照洗錢防制法被起訴了"},{"start":14924.66,"end":14943.205,"text":"這個是台北地檢署給所有被害人的起訴書我相信北檢的檢察官在您當初的領導下面一定是很認真的在追究這些詐騙洗錢的犯罪行為來請部長看一下我紅字寫的部分"},{"start":14943.985,"end":14969.54,"text":"他說陳正坤為了協助曾耀峰隱匿悉心的犯罪所得提供他小孩位於宜蘭縣宜蘭市木下精品旅館有限公司地下室供曾耀峰藏以犯罪所得購得的葛馬蘭威士忌酒現在這個案子臺北地檢署起訴了在臺北地方法院的刑事庭"},{"start":14970.936,"end":14998.42,"text":"正在進行審理程序在那個審理程序當中啊我要跟法務部部長報告的是這要那個陳正坤啊幫助洗錢的陳正坤啊他認罪了他認罪了他已經清楚的認罪了因為刑事審判程序是公開的嘛對不對部長是是嘛他在刑事審判程序當中公開的法庭認罪了這個沒有涉及到偵查秘密嘛"},{"start":15001.241,"end":15020.252,"text":"這個沒有對嘛齁好他在認罪的同時他同時講什麼他同時講說這批酒我當初會會放啊是立法委員陳歐破啊把酒交給我的也就是來請部長回去看一下我們剛剛這一個犯罪結構圖啊"},{"start":15023.134,"end":15049.643,"text":"這個詐騙的首腦加上A代為隱匿他詐騙的犯罪所得啊那顯然這個A啊不是只有陳正坤啊因為陳正坤現在已經起訴了嘛他也認罪了嘛那這個A不是只有陳正坤啊這個A還有陳歐珀啊這個犯罪事實公訴的檢察官在公訴立庭的時候應該都知道嘛"},{"start":15051.394,"end":15055.826,"text":"公務員知道有不法的犯罪事實是不是應該要依職權告發?"},{"start":15057.298,"end":15086.599,"text":"那個陳厚破的部分已經立案偵辦了所以現在在偵辦當中嗎不是啊因為我怕啦公訴的檢察官啊當庭知道這樣子的一個犯罪事實的時候他有沒有依照職權告發我不是很確定嗎我現在直接依照我現在直接公開檢舉這件事這沒有什麼偵辦秘密啊這個是在公開法庭當中啊陳正坤他認罪的時候所表示的內容好現在"},{"start":15088.26,"end":15107.589,"text":"法務部部長您現在當法務部部長了嘛法務部部長可不可以在上班的時間去幫財團的老闆喬斯仁的訴訟以後你如果當部長你現在當部長你會不會這樣做這個不可能嘛應不應該這樣做"},{"start":15112.863,"end":15140.245,"text":"這個應該大家都知道應該怎麼做才對大家都知道應該還是不應該這個不應該在絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛您當任法務部部長的時候我希望不要發生部長利用上班的時間幫自己好朋友有錢的大老闆去喬他私人的訴訟談和解法務部部長做這件事情不妥嘛對不對這個是第三件事情"},{"start":15141.297,"end":15168.415,"text":"去年去年有監聽的名單外洩出來那個時候調查局、廉政署、最高檢察署三個偵辦犯罪的非常重要的機關聯合發了新聞稿說這是典型的認知作戰說這是典型的認知作戰如果說今天外洩的監聽名單全部都是假的"},{"start":15170.097,"end":15187.723,"text":"然後竟然有人在散播這個假名單當然是認知作戰嘛但問題是裡面散播的裡面有非常多全部都是真的那個時候這個有洩密這個也是在台北地監署在政辦中"},{"start":15191.005,"end":15203.721,"text":"針對目前這個案子台北地檢署的偵辦我要拜託部長齁我不會介入個案的偵辦我只要求一件事情積極查辦因為這件事情很嚴重喔你如果把監聽的名單給外洩的話"},{"start":15205.603,"end":15209.406,"text":"你會嚴重的阻礙到整個犯罪的偵查嗎?所以台北地檢署會不會公開清楚的跟社會大眾知道裡面是全部都假的還是有很多是真的?"},{"start":15228.328,"end":15244.226,"text":"要還是會偵查不公開的一個作為辦法規定現在偵查不公開嘛但偵查總會終結嘛我希望偵查終結的時候要負責任的跟社會大眾講這到底是真的還是假的如果是真的誰洩漏出去的該不該追查"},{"start":15245.265,"end":15271.576,"text":"好請那個部長說明齁一句話因為時間我想這部分如果偵查結果的話我想台北地監署應該會在一個以新聞稿或者以對外的一個一個說明好謝謝部長謝謝總召接下來有請葉委員元之質詢葉委員元之葉委員之委員不在好所有發言登記委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時黃委員我們現在人數可能還要馬上處理"},{"start":15274.868,"end":15301.927,"text":"還有一位來就可以了。謝謝。好。那尊重您的意見。那委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員翁曉琳、吳宗憲所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆。現在進行報告事項處理前先請議事人員宣讀報告事項之預算解凍書面報告宣讀後即行處理。"},{"start":15303.407,"end":15321.287,"text":"那麼有關討論事項並按審查洗錢防制法修正草案令定期繼續審查報告事項宣讀過程中與解凍案無關之列席機關代表可先行離席現在請宣讀報告事項第二至六案之預算解凍書面報告案"},{"start":15323.366,"end":15342.572,"text":"報告事項第二案至第五案立法院秘書長函為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送本院單位預算決議一至決議三預算凍結書面報告及決議三十七第六目向下公報行政預算凍結五百萬元書面報告請查抄案等四案"},{"start":15343.252,"end":15352.335,"text":"第六案,行政院人事行政總處函委113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議二,人事行政制政策規劃執行及發展預算凍結350萬元書面報告請查詔案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":15373.616,"end":15380.941,"text":"因為時間的關係我們先休息3分鐘讓現場的會場人員可以做一些調整因為有些要先行離席3分鐘後我們繼續處理"},{"start":15402.635,"end":15404.636,"text":"法定人數不足法定人數不足"},{"start":15432.587,"end":15433.29,"text":"二（拒禁"},{"start":15438.746,"end":15462.113,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1、處理"},{"start":15463.473,"end":15479.258,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15479.698,"end":15492.166,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15498.05,"end":15514.13,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15517.902,"end":15541.901,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15544.423,"end":15554.607,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。�一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15579.837,"end":15604.003,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 Minne二、處理113年度中央政府總預算�"},{"start":15649.377,"end":15677.136,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15678.353,"end":15701.467,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15714.019,"end":15741.127,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15750.794,"end":15753.979,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。adequate Procedure 1、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15802.135,"end":15804.796,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。netesle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。arnessle一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15806.425,"end":15827.692,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15840.998,"end":15843.899,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":15875.128,"end":15893.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15895.15,"end":15920.754,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。"},{"start":15952.568,"end":15959.889,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會第2、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。namon"},{"start":15963.854,"end":15985.317,"text":"好主席在此先做宣告今日臨時提案一撤回現在進行處理先處理報告事項第二至五案有關立法院113年度預算解凍書面報告案即已列入議程報告並經宣讀做如下決定報告事項第二至五案均准予被查提報院會請問有無異議沒有通過"},{"start":15986.91,"end":16009.641,"text":"接下來我們接續處理報告事項第6案有關行政院人事行政總處113年度預算解凍書面報告案既已列入議程報告並經宣讀做如下決定報告事項第6案准予被查提報院會請問有異議沒有通過本次會議進行到此議程所列事項未及處理部分令定期繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":16014.664,"end":16028.517,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結項目共1案。 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E的母公司提出要跟Fupenda結合的一個申報案件現在正在審查這些文件申報資料是不是齊備等到所有的這個申報資料完整了之後呢我們就會開始"},{"start":2298.473,"end":2298.733,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2316.209,"end":2316.329,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":2332.18,"end":2333.801,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2348.37,"end":2348.61,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2370.649,"end":2371.83,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2400.091,"end":2400.251,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2417.469,"end":2430.905,"text":"二、審商的做出決定來確保維護自由跟公平的競爭這是關於這個外送平台的結合案所做的報告那接下來呢我來報告就是秋"},{"start":2432.546,"end":2452.763,"text":"市委委員等16位委員以及楊瓊英委員等24位委員所提的《多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正案》我來說明如下首先就是邱委員等16人以及楊委員等24人所提的修正案都是針對《多層次傳銷管理法》"},{"start":2453.163,"end":2470.376,"text":"第三條修正意見而且修正的內容是相同的主要都是要增加這個多層次傳銷事業他跟傳銷商參加締結參加契約的時候可以用電子文件為之那我先說明一下現行條文的規定是什麼"},{"start":2471.216,"end":2484.026,"text":"現行條文的規定是說這個傳銷事業跟傳銷商在簽訂這個參加契約的時候呢要用書面不可以用電子為方式為之當時為什麼要這麼定呢因為傳銷商跟傳銷事業之間的這個權利義務關係啊用書面來締結白紙黑字寫清楚這樣子可以使雙方對權利義務關係很清楚"},{"start":2495.555,"end":2495.675,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2525.531,"end":2549.542,"text":"傳銷事業跟傳銷商的參加企業可以用電子文件為之本會競表支持。以上簡單報告,敬請指教。好,謝謝公平會主委的報告。那行政院消費者保護處以及速發部的書面報告請委員自行參酌並刊登公報。那因為我們現場委員的人數已足,是不是請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?"},{"start":2553.364,"end":2570.774,"text":"接下來我們要開始進行詢答委員質詢前原例做幾下的極點宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員五分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘非本會委員四分鐘上午十點鐘截止發言登記我是不是請一下那個楊卓英委員謝謝"},{"start":2583.1,"end":2597.196,"text":"好,那我們請登記第一位邱益穎委員召委,請發言。好,謝謝主席,我是不是請一下主委。我們請主委。委員長。"},{"start":2604.688,"end":2631.766,"text":"主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda"},{"start":2635.008,"end":2659.057,"text":"那剛剛我特別聽了一下您的報告裡頭去談到你們要考量的這個部分有包含所謂的市佔率對不對這整個公平性上面有包含了市佔率那其實這個案子應該是在台灣除了這個非科技業的這種交易案裡頭其實也算是一個受矚目的交易案請教一下這個主委啊"},{"start":2664.485,"end":2685.627,"text":"您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的試占率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來Uber Eats是占32%Fu Panda占43%兩個加起來就已經接近八成"},{"start":2687.142,"end":2705.742,"text":"但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎?你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率?我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額"},{"start":2706.783,"end":2707.383,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2737.978,"end":2759.421,"text":"會不會不是計算餐飲店家就是主要我剛提到的營業額信用卡簽單訂單數這一些來看他的這個市佔率好第二個我要請教一下對於員工的保障或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭這個會在裡面的考量因素"},{"start":2760.282,"end":2780.467,"text":"你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項,你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明。那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來看這個結合案件,包括這個集中程度。對。那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力。是。同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險。"},{"start":2781.067,"end":2781.187,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2806.235,"end":2824.799,"text":"等等,餐廳的抽成的權益等等,這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭。我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候,其實大家也會有一些擔憂、疑慮。那後來這個併購案是成功的,但是你們有幾項的附帶條件,把它加總進去。"},{"start":2829.72,"end":2855.668,"text":"那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的"},{"start":2858.029,"end":2859.11,"text":"我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是"},{"start":2875.845,"end":2876.105,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":2893.853,"end":2916.779,"text":"當然不是在這裡下指導旗啦只是說對於外送平台對於這些外送員的權益對於商家被抽成的比例過高等等所有的勞動權甚至在市佔率上以後消費者的權益這些未來假如你們是通過這樣的一個重大的併購案的時候"},{"start":2918.439,"end":2947.628,"text":"那我們是也希望這樣的一些照顧照顧消費者保護消費者保護商家甚至保護外送員的這些相對的權利的部分都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來"},{"start":2948.448,"end":2967.074,"text":"甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嗎?是不是這樣?是 這個我們都會做通盤的考量那尤其社會關切的這些消費者、外送員、餐廳等等還有整個市場競爭的影響這個我們都會一起來考量好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢答"},{"start":2983.722,"end":3003.135,"text":"好,休息一分鐘。好,我們現在請陳婷菲委員發言。"},{"start":3007.711,"end":3008.952,"text":"李主委主委"},{"start":3020.481,"end":3039.804,"text":"其實我們需要的是公平會的態度我們沒有辦法去對於你們未來的審查結果如何去做任何的定調但是現在已經變成大家所擔心的一個焦點你也知道這個市場之大對不對"},{"start":3041.766,"end":3065.326,"text":"當這兩家平台業者做結合的時候他變成是一個超級大怪獸了這個超級大怪獸到底他要去捍衛到誰的權利然後會影響到誰的權利這個部分我們公平會如果沒有態度出來大家現在非常擔心"},{"start":3066.55,"end":3093.081,"text":"你知道公平會的態度應該做到什麼你要保障到三方的權益哪三方的權益第一餐飲業者為什麼要保障餐飲業者他有可能啊選擇犧牲原有的客群然後外送平台然後解約然後加成本轉嫁給消費者然後去調漲價格"},{"start":3096.394,"end":3096.594,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":3127.449,"end":3127.649,"text":"二、審查：一）"},{"start":3146.018,"end":3166.307,"text":"那我想請教一下現在針對這三方當你在審這個併購案的時候我們的態度在哪裡未來我們針對餐飲業者針對消費者針對外送員他們的權益我們要怎麼在這個審併購案之前應該有態度主委"},{"start":3171.379,"end":3192.07,"text":"謝謝委員提問我剛才也提到說這個案子我們在審查的面向剛才委員所關切的這個意義都會在我們這個審查裡面可是你們沒有態度出來啊你們只有說這些面向會在你們裡面可是你們的態度在哪裡看不到態度看不到態度大家就會擔心"},{"start":3193.988,"end":3218.686,"text":"你說會啊委員你講的我們會審審哪一個標準審哪一個部分然後我們的一個基底要抓在哪裡看不到態度看不到公平會的態度你們現在的方向呢我一樣一樣來如果參與業者的權益呢"},{"start":3220.495,"end":3221.236,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3248.015,"end":3249.896,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3277.113,"end":3301.546,"text":"那如果這樣子的話我們公平會的態度又在哪裡跟委員說明因為現在是第一大跟第二大併在一起這整個市場結構很明顯是改變了那國際上包括本會向來對於這樣的一種結合案一定是嚴格審查嚴格把關對啊主委你一直都講很空洞嚴格審查嚴格把關那到底要怎麼嚴格"},{"start":3303.516,"end":3325.461,"text":"你的嚴格的標準在哪裡看不出來聽不到你的嚴格在哪裡主委你跟我講嚴格在哪裡你的標準在哪裡針對這三方餐飲業者消費者外送員未來要怎麼保障他們對於第一跟第二大平台的併購"},{"start":3327.608,"end":3349.677,"text":"你的嚴格要在哪裡?你的嚴格審查要在標準制定抓在哪裡?我想這個審查我們有一個這個審查原則跟準則那將來在審查就是照這樣的一個好,原則跟準則在哪裡?誰定?原則跟準則誰定?"},{"start":3351.92,"end":3354.403,"text":"誰定?你們自己定嗎?對啊,原則跟審查的標準是你們定嘛,對不對?"},{"start":3362.586,"end":3386.219,"text":"是啊那你要不要把這個原則跟標準跟大家報告一下你會多嚴格你會多麼的站在這三方餐飲業者消費者外送員的這樣的一個權益你們會非常非常非常嚴格的把關請問你們的標準在哪裡你現在講不出來完全都這麼的空洞"},{"start":3387.179,"end":3400.56,"text":"我們今天已經做了這樣的所謂希望你來做這樣的一個報告結果是如此的空洞難怪現在大家很擔心欸"},{"start":3402.52,"end":3418.356,"text":"我連在這裡我都聽不到我想要聽的我都沒有辦法安心去認為我們公平會會好好的審嚴格的審這所謂第一大跟第二大平台的併購案你知道這多嚴重嗎這影響著這三方會變成任人宰割欸"},{"start":3426.872,"end":3446.628,"text":"我只要要進到這個行業我就必須要符合他們的需要跟他們的要求你如果讓他併購完之後你要求不了他所以你自己的標準在哪裡嗎?你講不出來嗎?而且這個標準又是你們公民會自己定的啊你還講不出來"},{"start":3449.253,"end":3477.358,"text":"難怪大家會擔心啊。我們甚至會放水。剛才我已經在報告裡面說,有幾個面向都會一起來綜合判斷,最後會去評估整個整體經濟利益是不是大於限制競爭的不利益。主委。這個都會逐項去審查。我真的不好意思說啦。看了你的報告,我只有覺得擔心、擔憂,因為怎麼把關看不到。"},{"start":3478.686,"end":3500.973,"text":"就是空洞而且不要忘了這是我們的第一大平台跟第二大平台他如果併購之後等於是一個超級大怪獸他要怎麼做你如果沒有事先去做好一個審慎的要求"},{"start":3502.622,"end":3525.431,"text":"我相信過了之後誰都奈何不了他最後就是餐飲業者受害消費者受害外送員受害這絕對不是我們要看到的而且也應該不是你們公平會在這個把關當中最後給大家失望的感覺謝謝"},{"start":3531.717,"end":3545.189,"text":"謝謝陳庭菲委員接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言謝謝主席我想請一下國民會主委來請李主委"},{"start":3551.243,"end":3579.383,"text":"委員早昨天早今天我們特別針對外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響的配套措施那這個議題很大及對消費者影響很大可是我發現這是我收過最少的一個報告就是兩頁一張都寫不滿第二頁都寫不滿那這個也表示這個問題確實非常的棘手我先請教一下主委"},{"start":3580.103,"end":3604.293,"text":"那個Pupenda是哪一國的公司?母公司?不知道?德國的公司嗎?所以UberEats母公司是美國的嗎?所以其實是兩家外資的公司那競爭的市場在台灣他讓我想到另外一個很類似的個案就是陳貴跟郝樂迪的案子"},{"start":3606.034,"end":3622.673,"text":"兩家公司都是台灣的公司,而且都是公開發行的公司。請問他們這兩家公司當時公平會的決議後來有沒有被follow?我們當時並沒有核准他們的結合。那他們現在的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3625.118,"end":3635.53,"text":"對,兩站在經營可是他們後面的股東結構其實幾乎是完全整合的一個情況那我想說這個部分因為他就是一個市場經濟的狀態那我們現在來看這個"},{"start":3639.915,"end":3641.457,"text":"二、審查．一）二、審查．一）"},{"start":3658.118,"end":3658.338,"text":"OK（"},{"start":3681.383,"end":3706.754,"text":"這是消保處這邊的一個資料那我這邊想特別提到的一個狀態就是因為在跟外送平台有關的已經變成第二類在運輸類當中非常的多創始年的一個新高創始年的新高那在這麼多的一個消費糾紛當中的時候其實我發現我們消保處行政院消保處今天有來"},{"start":3709.363,"end":3709.623,"text":"二、審查．一．二．"},{"start":3729.335,"end":3753.685,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關研商及協調會議那麼介於外送平台是以多面向、多元且營業形態法律觀就較為複雜然後點點點之後然後也請外交部去瞭解其他國家的狀態從112年6月到現在我不知道這個報告已經出來了沒有因為它這裡面的一個報告基本上是一個沒有結果的報告蕭保處"},{"start":3764.404,"end":3764.544,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":3784.418,"end":3784.538,"text":"二、審查８一）"},{"start":3814.418,"end":3815.139,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3833.934,"end":3857.195,"text":"之後公平會在審這個合併案的時候請務必一定要確保就是外送員的一個勞動條件所以我們希望說在審的過程當中的時候能夠把勞動部拉進來然後能夠把整個外送員他們的勞務契約變成附帶條件重要的部分主委這個部分可不可以先承諾"},{"start":3857.836,"end":3871.489,"text":"我想我們在整個審查的過程會跟相關機關包括消保會、勞動部一起來徵詢他們的意見、交換意見。那除了這個部分之外的時候還有另外一個地方就是針對整個"},{"start":3874.071,"end":3874.492,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3892.409,"end":3892.589,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3915.094,"end":3915.174,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3930.52,"end":3930.8,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3950.51,"end":3969.073,"text":"我想我們在審查過程中對於併購方以後的交易相對人包括餐廳、消費者以及外送員將來彼此之間的這個談判能力都會通盤去考量所以我再提一個狀態因為目前這兩家公司都是國外的公司"},{"start":3970.114,"end":3995.647,"text":"那目前富盛達在東南亞也已經被Grab把它給買掉了那我想問一個情況就是說如果公平會不允許他們併購可是富盛達到最後他自己退出市場當富盛達他自動退出市場的時候也許他們在私底下跟Uber Eats他們也許有一個私底下的一個什麼樣的交易他也不是公開發行公司他直接退出市場這個市場就拱手讓給了Uber Eats"},{"start":3998.708,"end":4012.453,"text":"在這種狀態之下的時候我們公平會有沒有其他的做法我們會將來會看整個市場的競爭狀況才能夠這個依事實來判斷OK那我覺得要特別提到因為我看到那個我們的相關的"},{"start":4014.892,"end":4032.857,"text":"就是相關法令我們的第七條第八條第九條當中的時候寫的感覺是很感覺好像有一個限制對於獨佔的定義然後對於獨佔的行為不能夠做的可是我發現其實它都很空而且整個其實是模糊的"},{"start":4033.637,"end":4061.441,"text":"所以我對於公平會對於這個兩家大的外送平台他們後續的發展能夠有怎麼樣的影響其實本席是非常的擔心可是也希望公平會還是能夠在不可為的情況之下盡最大的努力去保障台灣的消費者還有就是外送員跟業者這三者的一個權益的一個平衡好不好是的"},{"start":4077.177,"end":4092.182,"text":"主席,我想請李主委。李主委,首先我想問你,有使用過Fu Panda或是UberEats嗎?FuPanda有用過。有用過,你覺得好用嗎?"},{"start":4093.789,"end":4094.011,"text":"方便嗎?"},{"start":4096.544,"end":4124.974,"text":"還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還"},{"start":4125.114,"end":4145.207,"text":"三千萬人的消費市場十五萬人左右的勞動市場以及全台超過六成的餐飲業者都會受到影響那這個和平和平案請問你們的裁決就是攸關上千萬人權益的裁決請問主委你會不會覺得有壓力的這個案子會明顯的改變市場結構我們在審慎在評估這個案件的時候會審慎評估"},{"start":4155.578,"end":4182.935,"text":"那本席要問公平會自串會至今有禁止過哪些案件結合我們禁止過譬如說統一要跟維利結合還有錢貴好樂迪還有一些有限電視系統的結合那之前為什麼會禁止這些事業結合呢我想當時的這個禁止的結合的理由應該有他根據法令的規定做出的一個判斷"},{"start":4184.298,"end":4199.249,"text":"就是說對於這一次跟之前的這幾個這個和平案本席認為其關鍵是在於市佔率的界定這也是過去公平會禁止結合的主要原因主委認同嗎?"},{"start":4203.006,"end":4223.934,"text":"我們在這個審查的時候先界定市場所以當時這些案子的這個審查應該是根據當時的內容但是公平會在這個月的14號的時候表示兩大外送平台合併會有八成的市佔率本席想請教這八成是如何推估而來"},{"start":4224.735,"end":4225.175,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":4242.185,"end":4243.146,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4271.707,"end":4271.847,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4299.722,"end":4327.334,"text":"先為您說明一下當時的您提到那個八層是我們在109年的時候有一個那也是四年前的那也是四年前的現在在審訊的結合案我們會重新做調查在這個疫情之前在這個疫情之前的市戰率就有八層那疫情之後那可不得了了所以四年前的數據你拿出來用就是第一個錯誤那公平會本席在這裡要求公平會的裁決必須保障餐飲"},{"start":4328.254,"end":4331.677,"text":"但我們都知道獨佔本身並非構成禁止結合的要件對吧?"},{"start":4346.581,"end":4361.809,"text":"獨佔本身是一個事實那我們再進一步判說獨佔事業有什麼樣的行為是不是違反公平交易法的一個規定我們都知道說Uber Eats跟Full Panda彼此就是最大的競爭者那目前呢假設他們結合的話餐飲業者會擔心被漲價外送員會擔心被砍薪而且結合之後消費者是毫無溢價能力那這兩大平台的結合將會造成"},{"start":4375.816,"end":4405.029,"text":"台灣餐飲業上下游的浩劫以前有一個這個廣告台詞是一家烤肉萬家香現在這兩大平台的結合可能會變成一家烤肉萬家哭因此本席認為公平會的裁決必須審慎考慮幾個面向第一就是要保障餐飲業者不會因為結合而必須付出更高的經營成本那兩個外送平台現在的抽成大概是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":4406.349,"end":4435.569,"text":"三十到四十不等了那不沒錯差不多三十二到三十八趴之間那一般的餐飲業者扣除掉食材成本人事成本電租等等中間店家的獲利大概是二十五趴但是被外送平台抽了三十二至三十八趴之後店家幾乎是毫無利潤那其實我們餐飲業者也都是經營的非常辛苦尤其現在又這個漲店價不得已的話他也只好"},{"start":4436.049,"end":4436.949,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4451.254,"end":4451.394,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4466.701,"end":4466.941,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":4483.697,"end":4484.277,"text":"二、審查．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4511.215,"end":4531.983,"text":"九金山、芝加哥等城市都已經限定每筆上限15%,那並將之法制化。台灣是不是也可以思考幫將之法制化的?主委你認同嗎?我想是不是專案立法這個要很多面向去考量。我問你個人,我問你公平會的立場。你覺得這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":4536.781,"end":4561.118,"text":"或許這不是公平會的主管業務但藉這個機會也呼籲相關單位應該著手去研究國際案例並思考未來如何更有效的保障消費者我們期許公平會的裁決會達到多贏的結果就是店家有生意消費者的權益有保護外送員的薪水有保障那平台能夠維持營運"},{"start":4562.879,"end":4575.87,"text":"那本案的這個審議進度請公平會需定時公告而且並以書面回覆本席。謝謝。好,謝謝張家俊委員。接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言。謝謝主席。請他出位。來,請你出位。"},{"start":4598.694,"end":4624.643,"text":"委員長主委長這次兩大外送平台這個合併會不會變成是一個外送合成獸甚至是一個失控的台灣外送產業呢我相信剛剛委員已經提到了您壓力應該是很大的雖然還沒開始政治審對不對可是我相信已經有很多很多的人跟你講這個對台灣影響太大了我看你提到的這個報告裡面講到"},{"start":4626.324,"end":4651.51,"text":"會有四個面向去檢討嘛 對不對是你報告還沒出來那叫這四項市場的集中度結合或併購的這個定價能力這兩項看起來都不會過嘛對不對我想要看整個資料才判斷他們兩家家你看UberEats現在是9.5億美元對不對新台幣309億要去併購普遍打"},{"start":4657.11,"end":4683.377,"text":"這是施策會公布的嘛,超過八層嘛。被審的東西是市場集中度很高吧?被審是不是很高?是。所以不用審啊,大家一看就知道第一個面向一定是超過嘛,對不對?第二個結合以後併購的這個定價能力,本錢兩斤的最大啊,那加起來併購能力變一斤。這個第二個應該也答案你很清楚了吧?是不是?"},{"start":4684.724,"end":4710.239,"text":"我看還是要還是要看整個資料齁整個還要進一步詳細的分析OK不過現在看起來第一項你是認同的啦市場集中度看起來有問題嘛那結合後的併購這個定價能力那現在來看齁其實民眾會很關心是因為它影響實在是太大了第一個外送員屬於你知道外送員現在前陣子有被這兩個平台"},{"start":4712.388,"end":4740.636,"text":"他們這個薪資有被降低對不對?是有被降低你知道嗎?有看到這個消息一個單一個基本基本基本的這個單的費用現在是多少錢你知道嗎?我先跟你講一下他進行一張單喔基本基本費可以拿到60到70塊錢現在已經降到多少你知道嗎?本來是60到70這兩家他們聯合去把它降下來現在重大了你知道嗎?"},{"start":4742.984,"end":4743.605,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":4762.982,"end":4789.95,"text":"應該是差不多三十到四十吧,再縮小一點,32到38%啦。對啊,這個高不高?你如果開一間店,這個抽層很高耶。那現在是有兩大家,現在如果合起來,那這個抽層不是就更高了。所以對外送員有很大的影響,對合作的店家有很大的影響。其實衝擊更大就是我們,一般的消費者嘛。"},{"start":4791.448,"end":4791.528,"text":"二（二（"},{"start":4818.444,"end":4844.141,"text":"那根本的解決方案是什麼我覺得除了要依靠公平委之外他應該訂一個專法台灣民眾黨在上個會期就提出一個專法了他要對外送平台的管理還有外送這個從業人員這個權利是要有一個保障的那這個最近我們台灣民眾黨會在提案我們請主委要提供你的專業意見好不好要保障到"},{"start":4845.1,"end":4845.82,"text":"二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．"},{"start":4877.038,"end":4902.821,"text":"那個委員談的是說Full Panda跟UberEats降低外送員報酬這我們有調查那根據我們調查的結果其實是分別定價並不是聯合共同合並沒有市政﹖他們沒有範例的聯繞合就是沒有你平常講的那個範例跟那個聯合就對了那他計費的項目等等我們有做這個瞭解"},{"start":4903.582,"end":4928.184,"text":"所以後來是沒有問題嗎?那可是就是一下降那麼多啊,而且兩家幾乎是同時降啊。就是說個別降,這個在公平專法是沒有非難的。是個別降,所以還是拿它沒辦法。因為它不是共同合嘛。不是共同,你把那個報告也給我一份好不好。這個已經提出來過對不對?是,我們已經有做過實力了。好,我們來看一下這個報告的這個裡面的,我們把它詳細來談好不好。那另外之一我們剛剛本期提到的,怎麼去保障到"},{"start":4928.965,"end":4940.32,"text":"外送員保障到合作這個店家保障到消費者這個權益在整個溢價過程裡面這是你們責任嗎這是我們會審慎評估你一方面等他送這個申請過來一方面你在一個禮拜能不能先有一個評估報告給我們"},{"start":4941.616,"end":4968.251,"text":"我們會把這個整個案情的過程再跟會後跟委員評估好不好你已經有做了還是目前可以去趕快去做?這兩個齁那個我以為你說的是這個結合案還是說那個降低報酬那一部分沒有沒有現在合併這個這個合併案我們是5月14號收到收到這個申報的案件目前針對這個我會再試所以現在是針對這個資料在做評好那你大概多久你拿到以後多久你應該先會有一個評估嘛對不對"},{"start":4968.891,"end":4989.893,"text":"我們會看他資料齊不齊備．如果齊備以後就受理．受理以後30天的審查．30天審查之前你們內部會有一個評估嗎?再延六十天．如果有評估報告能不能一個禮拜先給我?我想我們最後．我們是會照我們的程序是會．第一個就是說看資料．第二個徵詢各界的意見．那再來就是委員會去討論．最後會做出一個決定．"},{"start":4990.813,"end":5018.066,"text":"好。因為他們照你們的法律程序來走。那如果之前先做一個評估報告可以的話,就先一個禮拜內先給。如果有進一步消息可提供的話,我會再跟你們。好。注意。謝謝。李主委,你要不要想清楚?兩個外送平台合併的評估報告,你們可以先送立法院?可以這樣嗎?剛剛張委員剛剛講的不是要你提...你們內部一定會先送評估法,對不對?"},{"start":5019.413,"end":5038.48,"text":"對,鄭委員剛剛講的是請你提供你們內部的評估報告,你們那個可以先送立法院：我説明一下我們的成：你要講清楚喔,你不要亂回答喔因為現在那個應該不是評估報告而是說我們的這個進度,譬如說現在是在這個補件當中,這個我們可以對外來說明,那不是說"},{"start":5039.46,"end":5042.761,"text":"對,這是案件的審查進度報告。審查進度報告。那我現在說除了這個,當然這個到時候都是公開的啦。我說你之前內部一定有回送某些評估嗎?你方不方便把這個內部評估報告?沒有評估,就是都資料都齊全,徵詢意見以後就到委員會去審查。審查結果。那OK。我只是要確認一下不然"},{"start":5064.885,"end":5065.305,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員發言。"},{"start":5100.419,"end":5126.365,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請主委。來,請你主委。委員長。主委好。那今天這個多層次傳銷管理法的修正。這個多層次傳銷管理法103年1月29號公布施行。"},{"start":5129.434,"end":5140.381,"text":"當時這個現在就是現在條文了哈第十三條多層次傳銷事業與傳銷商參加其傳銷計劃或組織時應與傳銷商締結書面參加企業並交付企業正本前項之書面不得以電子文件為之電子簽章法"},{"start":5152.267,"end":5176.039,"text":"比這個多層次傳銷管理法更早公布施行。民國九十年了,十一月十四號就制定了電子簽章法。那一百零三年制定這個多層次傳銷管理法,為什麼"},{"start":5177.682,"end":5186.182,"text":"會明定不得以電子文件為之,一定有他的一個用意,立法的目的,知道嗎?"},{"start":5188.332,"end":5188.592,"text":"往前正確。"},{"start":5217.099,"end":5245.642,"text":"那因為這個現在要修正我們有委員提案修正得以電子文件為之那因為這個多層次傳銷他是透過傳銷商介紹他人參加建立多層級的組織介紹再介紹再介紹沒有限次數嘛"},{"start":5247.685,"end":5274.784,"text":"所以這樣的一個情形之下這個第五條寫得很清楚在這樣的情形之下你剛才主委提的沒有錯這個當時受害的都是基層最基層的而這些最基層的通常都是很少用那個以現在的說法就是連賴都很少用"},{"start":5276.385,"end":5299.483,"text":"現在是不是還是這樣所以這個是當初一百零三年已經是一個電子化時代了對不對一百零三年了而且電子簽署法民國九十年就公布了所以他之所以會這樣這樣子明定就是剛剛主委所講的那現在經過了十年"},{"start":5301.067,"end":5301.367,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5332.506,"end":5358.831,"text":"因為我剛講過電子前章法90年11月14號公布施行今年有在做修正今年有在做5月15號這個又修正修得更更開放啦我簡單用詞叫更開放更好但是就基層而言是不是就能夠"},{"start":5361.186,"end":5363.287,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5380.214,"end":5406.381,"text":"前三項文件或簽章之使用．有相對人者．除相對人已同意採用電子形式外．應於採用電子形式之前．以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會．並告知相對人未反對者推定同意採用電子形式．"},{"start":5408.626,"end":5409.406,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5439.793,"end":5452.8,"text":"不然的話又是成為一個詐騙事件的最基層的成為被詐騙者有沒有可能發生這種事情"},{"start":5453.813,"end":5478.292,"text":"謝謝委員。雖然用電子方式為之,它還是要有一個契約,還是有一些權利義務的條款法令的規定的一些事項。那因為現在這個我們的數位經濟發展很快,我們的傳銷商還是可以下載的,這個契約是可以下載的。那另外您談到的配套措施,在公平會我們對於我們的傳銷事業會有一些業務檢查,這一部分我們將來也會特別去觀察。"},{"start":5479.045,"end":5500.395,"text":"因為每個部會的關心的不一樣啊。數位發展部他要去推動這個電子化的時代AI什麼什麼他要去推動不能怪他。但是就不同的部會就自己所主管的業務"},{"start":5501.837,"end":5528.225,"text":"啊,怎麼樣去因應這個,怎麼樣去加強保護最基層的,啊,最基層的人員,這恐怕是每一個,不是,不只是公平會了,包括別的部會也是一樣啊,啊,這個因為當初所以會發生,現在可能又會發生新的,啊,新的一個受騙,啊,"},{"start":5531.351,"end":5531.931,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5549.349,"end":5549.529,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5578.83,"end":5603.528,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天才委員。接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言。謝謝主席,請李主委。來,請李主委。委員長。主委。"},{"start":5604.773,"end":5624.99,"text":"公平會最重要要對於我們這個獨佔行為或聯合行為的限制競爭或者是不公平的這個競爭行為我們公平會都要發揮最積極的一個作用對不對那如果說有違反了這個禁止我們這個事業體制合併有違法的罪證確鑿我們就要開重罰是不是"},{"start":5628.833,"end":5629.474,"text":"二、審查．一．二、審查．一．"},{"start":5643.769,"end":5643.949,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5661.186,"end":5661.266,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":5691.606,"end":5691.766,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":5710.655,"end":5711.095,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5735.436,"end":5735.596,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5764.906,"end":5765.046,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5784.347,"end":5800.558,"text":"主委你可以保證做得到嗎我跟委員說明我們審查的結果如果禁止結合那就是禁止不可以結合就不會再附加條件如果同意結合我們是擔心同意結合之後所有的人都會影響他的權益會受損"},{"start":5801.559,"end":5803.161,"text":"所以才要你有附加條件對於外送員餐廳甚至消費者這一些可能受到的影響我們都會一起評估一定要評估喔因為這個之前統一跟維利還有好樂迪跟這個錢貴啊"},{"start":5817.915,"end":5818.055,"text":"二、審查（"},{"start":5836.607,"end":5858.7,"text":"我們會評估整個經濟利益有沒有大於這個限制競爭的不利益。所以本席也想請問一下,你們會開公聽會嗎?會,會開公聽會。會廣納各方的意見。會,會,會開公聽會。會開公聽會,是。因為要廣納各方的意見,那尤其是我想問一下勞動部這個專員這部分,因為有外送人員的權益的問題。是。"},{"start":5864.487,"end":5872.972,"text":"許專員,請問一下,如果合併的話,外送人員會不會全數流到,順利流到這個轉換的平台?你沒有保障這個權益嗎?包括他們的計費的方式啊,他們會全數轉換過另外一個平台嗎?他們的收入才不會減少?"},{"start":5887.295,"end":5888.756,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5906.465,"end":5921.512,"text":"因為他們這個是屬於接單的沒有辦法保障工作的持久性所以這個你們勞動部一定要注意跟我們的公平會一起共同的來關心這個問題一定要有個合作的機制嘛是不是好不好"},{"start":5923.063,"end":5923.784,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5946.562,"end":5946.882,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":5968.365,"end":5968.585,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5994.997,"end":6023.017,"text":"因為目前還在收集資料我們會做什麼樣的一個決議其實還沒有還沒有那將來在評估的時候剛才委員提到的這些包括他的這個餐廳、外送員、消費者等等以及最重要的對整個市場競爭秩序的影響這個我們都會來一起考量需要諸位你們執掌的責任積極的發揮功能來保障大家的權益好不好"},{"start":6027.951,"end":6043.716,"text":"謝謝李玉琳委員接下來我們請謝依鳳委員發言謝謝主席我想要請李美主委主委"},{"start":6049.833,"end":6059.691,"text":"主委早安其實大家非常擔心就是Uber Eats跟Fupanda如果他們這個外送平台併購以後"},{"start":6062.213,"end":6079.679,"text":"到底他們兩個合併以後到底會不會影響到目前小吃店還要支付的就是每一單的這個比例是多少那以及未來外送員的權益是多少"},{"start":6080.219,"end":6088.304,"text":"那如果兩個人合併以後．不是兩個人啊．會不會影響到現在已經是博麗多銷的這樣子的平價小吃．未來會變成絕響．請諸位回答"},{"start":6101.478,"end":6114.368,"text":"謝委員就是這個併購案我們在審查的過程也會把是不是因為競爭對手減少了那併購方有提高台價的能力您剛提到問題我們會一起綜合評估"},{"start":6117.483,"end":6143.718,"text":"他們兩個合幣以後超過市佔率是不是超過五成?你們現在預計他是超過他是怎麼樣子的一個比率?一個是第一大跟第二大那結合以後市佔率是很高。多少?多少?超過五成以上一定是有的。那那是多少?這個市場界定市場界定還要再精細我們在109年的時候曾經做過做過分析有七八成以上"},{"start":6144.418,"end":6158.827,"text":"所以是七八成之多這是109年那現在呢因為時間也過了幾年要再重新做市場的界定要重新評估所以如果市佔率這麼高的情況下"},{"start":6160.027,"end":6187.523,"text":"會不會他們兩個合併以後就造成所有店家支付給外送平台的這樣子的一個比例售價比例會提高那如果提高的時候所有的這些平價的業者都沒有辦法有跟他們議價的能力以及現在已經有非常多的外送員"},{"start":6189.084,"end":6201.754,"text":"講到的勞動權利的問題我想請問李主委如果他們到時候一定會提出說明的時候你們會用什麼樣子的點來要求他們"},{"start":6202.864,"end":6227.71,"text":"我想剛才委員提到的包括外送員包括餐廳以及消費者這一些將來跟併購方的議價能力談判能力這一部分我們在審查的過程都會去評估那當然也要看併購方他提出的這個結合計畫相關的內容那因為現在呢5月14號才送件我們現在還在彙整這些資料那怎麼樣的確保勞動權利我想這將來委員會會去充分討論"},{"start":6232.922,"end":6256.052,"text":"勞動部的那個專委你剛才聽到主委說了如果是超過五成可能有達到七八成之多的這樣子的一個合併案怎麼樣子確保所有外送就是目前Uber Eats跟所有Foodpanda外送人員的勞動權利勞動部怎麼確保"},{"start":6259.667,"end":6259.887,"text":"我們這個平台會議還是會繼續進行。"},{"start":6278.787,"end":6293.615,"text":"對可是未來他們就沒有辦法當有兩家的時候他們不走這一家還可以選擇另外一家可是未來的情況是兩家變成一家的情況下你就變成沒有選擇性的那沒有選擇性的時候勞動部針對這樣子相關的勞動權利是應該要另外的計畫"},{"start":6299.659,"end":6308.695,"text":"我希望勞動你帶回去讓勞動部如果針對這個案子應該要在未來的公聽會以及相關的會議表達勞動部的意見好不好"},{"start":6313.149,"end":6339.803,"text":"還有李主委我還要請問一下就是當初你們同意了全聯跟大潤發的併購案可是你們希望說不要用這樣子造成就是說用最低禁止最惠客戶的政策就是不要用低價的方式來來消價競爭可是你們也罰了全聯對不對代表了這麼大的大型市佔率的併購裡面"},{"start":6341.738,"end":6361.429,"text":"公平會過去的審查並沒有辦法確保我們消費者的權利因為如果他們提高了就是每一單的就是每一單商品價格的比例的時候有可能最後還是會轉嫁到消費者身上是不是"},{"start":6363.101,"end":6385.354,"text":"我想這個全年我們罰他兩千萬是因為他當時跟大論法結合的時候我們給他一些負擔跟條件他沒有履行這些負擔跟條件而受處罰我知道 我是說你當初給他們了可是他們也沒有辦法就是說完全的按照那這只是其中的一件而已"},{"start":6385.814,"end":6385.954,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6405.009,"end":6405.549,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":6420.874,"end":6421.094,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":6440.393,"end":6461.421,"text":"委員問的這個問題就是涉及到說結合以後並購方是不是因為競爭對手減少而有台價的能力這一部分我們在整個審查過程也會去注意到對那我是說我知道你會注意到我說你怎麼確保我想這將來在這個委員會討論的時候我們審查的過程會一起去討論會討論那你會不會確保"},{"start":6469.218,"end":6469.878,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6499.818,"end":6504.379,"text":"賴銳榮委員發言賴銳榮委員發言賴銳榮委員發言賴銳榮委員發言"},{"start":6523.348,"end":6543.099,"text":"主委我想大家都高度關注這個Uber Eats跟Fupenda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的"},{"start":6544.119,"end":6544.239,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":6563.103,"end":6563.263,"text":"二、審查：一）"},{"start":6582.352,"end":6597.189,"text":"如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢,必要的時候可以延長60天。延長到60天是不是?也就是30天加60天。90天,所以最快在三個月後會做出決定。"},{"start":6597.509,"end":6623.281,"text":"要看他文件什麼時候齊備。我們通知副委員他還要準備。我還是希望公平交易這件事情要非常審慎嚴謹在處理。那我要講一下就是說以現在來看Fupenda跟UberEats的Fupenda市佔率是43、UberEats是32反倒是小的並掉大的。那你看所有的抽層幾乎都是三層多。那另外一家比較小家的反倒只有兩層多的一個抽層。所以"},{"start":6624.501,"end":6646.053,"text":"這也是大家所擔憂的啦一旦說兩大病的他們現在兩個在競爭所以他還有可能維持一個比較這樣即使在這樣狀況下都抽成三成多坦白講對商家的負擔其實是頗重的那如果將來整併的話或者是講收購完畢的話有沒有可能就變成了更高的一個這個抽成的一個價格主委有沒有這樣的擔憂"},{"start":6647.901,"end":6649.742,"text":"兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高"},{"start":6675.905,"end":6676.405,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6704.735,"end":6704.855,"text":"二（二（"},{"start":6728.763,"end":6750.292,"text":"那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以後來那我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利、包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分"},{"start":6754.634,"end":6768.539,"text":"你們談的最後,你們的結論是怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍屬短期承諾無法解決長期而言市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?"},{"start":6769.603,"end":6792.939,"text":"對,在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,他當時這個好得底,所以他是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著競爭,限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?"},{"start":6796.825,"end":6813.785,"text":"對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂敵。"},{"start":6814.306,"end":6814.586,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6843.26,"end":6844.56,"text":"兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明。說明的結果呢?"},{"start":6874.377,"end":6897.809,"text":"這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成3到4成未來可能會更高"},{"start":6899.366,"end":6904.571,"text":"當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開工地會而且會徵刑相關機關、勞動部、消保會等等"},{"start":6915.561,"end":6931.991,"text":"主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差再來我請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一件重要的事情"},{"start":6932.571,"end":6932.671,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":6957.034,"end":6957.154,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":6976.185,"end":6976.405,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":7000.633,"end":7026.072,"text":"委員您的提案我們非常重視我也認為廣告組應該是處於可以被找得到這是很重要我們針對這個議題我們也去拜訪很多相關的業者第一個就是說如果這個廣告組有委託廣告代理業通常找得到這個廣告組現在問題就是這些廣告組自己在平台上刊登廣告沒有透過"},{"start":7026.852,"end":7028.953,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7058.1,"end":7084.595,"text":"好不好,謝謝主委,這整個案件請再幫我整個瞭解一下,我們來努力,減少詐騙的發生,好,謝謝。好,謝謝賴瑞榮委員。接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言。來,謝謝主席,有請公民會李主委。來,請李主委。"},{"start":7092.453,"end":7113.533,"text":"主委,有關這兩家外送平台還要結合案,在其他國家有沒有相關的案例?就這兩家在其他國家有沒有相關的情況?這兩家在其他國家有沒有相關的情況?"},{"start":7114.782,"end":7140.92,"text":"這個可能要再進一步瞭解一下你們瞭解說不可能只在台灣發生嘛有可能在其他國家日本、韓國是不是也有相關或者歐洲其他國家是不是有跟台灣類似的狀況?如果是指Fu Panda跟WoodenEats我的瞭解在國外我是沒有看到台灣是第一件?全球第一件?是嗎?你要掌握狀況,主委"},{"start":7143.174,"end":7171.006,"text":"其他國家是不是有相關例子那其他國家怎麼處理沒有嗎就是這兩家的結合我們沒有看到這個案例這兩家的結合只有在台灣出現其他國家還沒有出現目前看到的是這樣所以這個你就非常重要我想問一下這個過去前年過病大論法你們是有條件通過對不對是那有七大負擔"},{"start":7172.52,"end":7201.137,"text":"那你這個未來如果結合之後他可能有寡戰變成獨佔這部分非常嚴重那你沒有競爭對手他就會把這個市場競爭把它弱化不管對合作餐廳對消費者對外送員都是相對是不利所以你要怎麼樣合併才能達到防止限制競爭的目的"},{"start":7202.148,"end":7212.701,"text":"您們有沒有相關的做法?您們怎麼不能說你提出這個四項審查原則但是你要如何進行讓他們進行合併你說哪些負擔或哪些條件"},{"start":7215.014,"end":7234.584,"text":"能夠達到防止限制競爭的目的?跟委員報告,就是說這個結合案,第一個,兩大結合,整個市場結構改變,我們一定會嚴格審查,要嚴格把關。那至於這個審查的結果準或不準,假設是不準,那就沒有負條件或負負擔的問題。假設準了,在談要賦予什麼樣的負擔。那你那個審查的標準在哪裡?"},{"start":7239.775,"end":7240.356,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":7260.902,"end":7261.282,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7284.735,"end":7284.815,"text":"二、審查（"},{"start":7307.028,"end":7322.662,"text":"我們如果這個申請人的文件齊備以後我們開始受理審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再增加60天也就是30天加60天最長。三十天之內你就要做出決定?三十天要做出決定必要的時候可以延長"},{"start":7326.005,"end":7332.791,"text":"五月十四日申請,現在在審查這些文件。五月十四日提出申請。我們就是要等他文件齊備以後,我們就開始授禮這個文件。應該是說授禮申請的。"},{"start":7346.803,"end":7373.84,"text":"等到文件齊備才受理申請（法院規定是說受理立案後30工作天你要做出決定嘛 對不對受理申請是受理申請那你這開始了沒這期間開始了沒文件還沒有齊備的話還沒有開始算所以還沒開始算對還沒開始算好那30天之內還可以再延長一次60工作天是你如果在60天之內最少你沒有做出決定對不對他就可以進行結合嗎是的沒有錯吧是所以你60天之內只要文件齊備你60天之內"},{"start":7376.227,"end":7404.322,"text":"會不會有時間壓力（九十天（有沒有時間壓力（你要辦公廳會（你要收集很多資料（這個我們時間是相當緊湊（所以也會很審慎處理這個案件（所以兩個月（你要針對那麼大的一個結合案（你要做出決定（時間壓力很大（我希望你們那個要方方面面都要考量（你要讓社會能夠接受你們的決定（雖然時間短（我們還是會很嚴格的（很審慎的處理這個案件（"},{"start":7404.844,"end":7404.944,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":7426.035,"end":7426.815,"text":"二、審查．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":7453.7,"end":7482.381,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣?主委我想要不要訂專法還有譬如說主管機關等等這個都要多面向去考量所以我是覺得這樣子沒有明確的法規跟主管機關的規範我是覺得這個外送平台市場是深入每一個家庭幾乎每一個生活都會用到這個外送平台對不對?包括你我都會使用這個外送平台所以一直沒有一個主管機關沒有一個這主管機關到底是誰?"},{"start":7486.787,"end":7503.614,"text":"要看目的業事業主管機關其實就是說整個外送平台他牽涉的面項很多包括那總要有一個這個行業總要有一個主管機關啊那這個主管到底是誰連你們搞不清楚那你要怎麼去做規範你要怎麼去做在公平會我們處理的是這個競爭秩序的影響所以"},{"start":7512.85,"end":7514.931,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7543.851,"end":7544.091,"text":"您要補充?"},{"start":7572.502,"end":7586.176,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員接下來我們請楊瓊英召委發言謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請主委來請主委"},{"start":7592.847,"end":7610.285,"text":"委員長主委好,針對於今天本席的提案在提案說明的時候我說明得非常的清楚也就是我們科技發展日新月異生活的形態也一直在改變那全球也大力的在推動"},{"start":7611.266,"end":7611.486,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":7626.52,"end":7626.7,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7651.519,"end":7651.719,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7674.198,"end":7674.999,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7697.361,"end":7718.852,"text":"五指化的一個環保趨勢那這個如果三讀通過之後也敬請行政部門來執行之好謝謝那你這個點頭讓我這信心十足接下來我們要討論外送平台大家非常的關心現在兩家那這個金額據我們媒體看的是307億是嗎"},{"start":7721.894,"end":7723.115,"text":"二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．"},{"start":7736.804,"end":7758.863,"text":"會不會啊?我們要再進一步去精算他的這個市佔率但是是很高一定是很高很高那所以本席要請教這個你也說了你在5月15號那個副主委也表示對外表示這個案子送來之後公平會從市場的集中度"},{"start":7760.369,"end":7780.544,"text":"結合後併購方的定價能力和併案協同效果和併案的協同效果有一個重點叫做聯合行為是不是聯合行為重點在這裡那市場的效應市場的效益這四大原則你們來做審查"},{"start":7781.184,"end":7805.438,"text":"照您剛才說的．他的成分是目前國內兩大家．那占比是非常高幾乎cover的全部那同時在這個聯合行為的這個情況也是在你們四大開會考量的向下非常重要的一點所以本期要請教從我們公平會創會以來"},{"start":7808.519,"end":7808.699,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":7827.142,"end":7828.684,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7844.125,"end":7869.953,"text":"如果併起來他是一個什麼呢?他是一個獨佔市場的合併案。我可以這麼解讀嗎?應該是說如果我們評估的結果整個經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益相比那個經濟利益沒有比較大那這個我們就會禁止。就本次再次強調再次請問公平委員你們自己都承認喔他是一個獨佔市場的合併案"},{"start":7871.394,"end":7872.175,"text":"二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．"},{"start":7893.872,"end":7909.017,"text":"如果在併購後當然這個解讀獨證市場的合併案這個解讀應該是會成立接下來我們再討論本期希望公平會你有沒有牙齒你這隻老虎有沒有牙齒你會不會做一個沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":7915.171,"end":7944.16,"text":"會不會如此?不會國家賦予我們執法的權利我們一定會做法執行我很高興聽到這一句話國家賦予你這個職責獨立機關單位你要做一個有牙齒的老虎以民、以經濟為基準以我們整個經濟的秩序為安全考量因為觀光外送人員他們的權益要怎麼做也是你們非常重要的考量之一對不對"},{"start":7945.347,"end":7971.28,"text":"是不是是不是外送員餐廳這些消費者都是我們考量的因素都是考量嗎好我也歡喜聽到整個必要的條件都納入在你們未來審議當中未來審議當中我們也希望能夠讓外送平台的外送人員都能夠有他們應當有的一個權益那整個消費市場的秩序能夠安全"},{"start":7971.84,"end":7972.38,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7998.945,"end":8023.371,"text":"兩千五百萬的這個划環 對不對．好 那請教．因為現在隨便 IG短影音這個長篇圖文平台直播都非常的多大家為了業績一直吹捧一直吹捧不實的內容我們不斷看到所以本次要請教到目前為止你們罰了幾個案子啊罰了幾個案子"},{"start":8026.209,"end":8030.614,"text":"我們對於網路上的不實廣告有相當多的處罰的案例。對於網紅不實的這個廣告,你們罰了幾個案子?"},{"start":8036.994,"end":8061.869,"text":"網紅如果它本身是一個廣告組那它也受我們21條不實廣告的規範對當然那目前我們所以依照這一條你們罰了幾個案子我們就是網紅本身又是廣告組被我們處罰的案例目前沒有這個目前怎樣目前沒有目前沒有嘛但是社會民眾告訴我欸我很害怕欸我點下去我看了到底真的假的"},{"start":8062.95,"end":8082.478,"text":"民眾有這個疑慮到目前為止我們設立了這個法到目前為止沒有辦件的處分但是主委社會上的民眾已經有這樣疑慮所以本期要請教你們針對於網路廣告案件處理方法處理原則到現在是零是零沒有"},{"start":8082.978,"end":8083.138,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8101.133,"end":8123.085,"text":"我們針對這個網路上的廣告我們有監控如果有這個疑慮是不實廣告我們會主動去查所以主委我再給你民眾的心聲目前大家很疑慮但是你現在依據你的法律目前為止你的處分是零你的處分是零你又有監控代表著代表什麼代表你認為沒有不實廣告嗎"},{"start":8124.787,"end":8126.067,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8157.746,"end":8166.414,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請公平會李主委還有鍾處長。李主委還有蕭保處鍾處長。請問一下主委。對於這個勿不依次要併購這個Foodpanda這件事情,大概最晚會有結果。"},{"start":8183.666,"end":8183.966,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":8208.618,"end":8226.673,"text":"那這個齁我看你們的報告啦齁那當然就是說你有這個四個審查的重點然後最後再就看他的這一個整體的經濟利益是否大於限制競爭之不利益再做出準博的決定嘛這個整體經濟利益是否大於限制競爭之不利益可不可以再做說明一下"},{"start":8227.253,"end":8253.564,"text":"我想簡單的說明我們觀察結合以後的市場集中程度那再來就是說結合以後併購方他是不是因為競爭對手減少了有提高價格的這個情形再來就是說競爭者變少了那是不是同業間聯合行為的風險會比較高這也是考量那再來就是說他的交易相對的也就是今天大家非常關切的外送員"},{"start":8256.165,"end":8268.709,"text":"我聽你這樣講齁那如果這個真的被變了之後那真的是這一個整體經濟力會縮小啊因為你所講的嘛他市場集中度變大了嘛他現在變成是一個寡占的市場對不對他是不是變成一個寡占的市場"},{"start":8274.305,"end":8288.759,"text":"整個市場因為它施戰率會（對它是一個寡戰市場吧是不是（寡戰或者是獨佔的市場沒有這樣你們公平會對於寡戰跟獨佔有一個精準的定義它是不是一個寡戰的市場目前是寡戰將來結合以後"},{"start":8291.26,"end":8303.295,"text":"就是寡占市場,我們公平會副主委都講說這是一個寡占市場了嘛,對不對?所以你講嘛,它是一個寡占市場,然後定價能力,定價能力因為現在只剩下一家要超過八成,定價能力是不是都是由他來操控來決定?對不對?"},{"start":8309.469,"end":8334.908,"text":"將來結合以後他是不是會有提高提高提價的情形這個是要再觀察那你他合併之後價格由他來決定嘛對不對我們先不管說他是調漲調降他來決定嘛對不對價格因為合併之後價格他自己決定而且他照顧八成的市佔率嘛他就有操控市場價格能力嘛對不對"},{"start":8337.521,"end":8360.81,"text":"就是他的市場力很大對啊那所以呢我按照你們這個四個審查的重點你說他協同的效果聯合行為他已經不只是一個聯合行為因為他就是一個獨佔市場他已經是佔八成的市場了嘛對不對那所以就這個你的四個審查重點來講我自己判斷啦他的這一個整體經濟利益齁"},{"start":8362.773,"end":8363.433,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8392.13,"end":8401.986,"text":"然後呢合作店家的成本提高會轉嫁給消費者嗎對不對對這是我們的擔憂對那所以主委你要聽一下"},{"start":8403.029,"end":8403.189,"text":"二、審查：一）"},{"start":8425.88,"end":8451.383,"text":"我們的影響就是如同剛剛委員在我們的報告裡面看到的這些那所以我們未來就是因為公平會在審查過程當中依照以往他們都會開座談會或公聽會那我們會到時候會看資料因為我們現在手上也沒有所以我們會看報告上的資料或者開會的資料然後針對這個站在消費者的立場除了剛剛三點以外如果在資料上面有什麼顯示我們認為對消費者不利的部分我們也會在那個會上提供意見給公平會"},{"start":8452.304,"end":8452.784,"text":"接下來我們請羅志強委員發言。"},{"start":8485.498,"end":8510.254,"text":"主席有請主委。來請李主委。委員長。主委好。Fubenda跟UberEats的合併會大幅改變臺灣外送服務市場的格局,對不對?是。這兩家公司在國外都很多龐大的市場份額,在臺灣更高達八成,對不對?"},{"start":8512.73,"end":8512.81,"text":"會產生影響?"},{"start":8531.597,"end":8552.443,"text":"我認為是會產生很多不利的影響那這個希望公平會都能夠去審酌所以要確保的是什麼就是說怎麼樣公平會在處理這個案子外送員消費者跟商家的權益不受侵犯不受侵害這樣的一個基本原則主委認同嗎"},{"start":8553.444,"end":8577.909,"text":"我想在審查這個結合我們最主要一個考慮對競爭的影響那當然整個交易相對人就是併購方的交易相對人餐廳外送員消費者這一些可能的影響都會在評估裡面目前這個已經收到兩家公司的合併申請了嗎收到了我們在5月14號收到申請"},{"start":8578.789,"end":8596.938,"text":"所以基本上是受以申報的起算30工作天內不得進行結合必要時公平會可以審查期間延長60個工作天嘛對不對那我們這個30天的起算期間是從他文件齊備開始算不是從他送件的時候開始算對"},{"start":8598.138,"end":8613.143,"text":"那我想請問就是說未來的審查重點可能我看了一下包括市場集中度、結合後併購方定價能力和併案協同效果就聯合行為然後市場效益"},{"start":8613.863,"end":8640.803,"text":"那麼對於外送服務來說有別於其他產業的結合外送特別的地方在於說有外送員的權益的問題是比較要注意的所以我想問一下主委你有在使用這兩家的外送服務嗎有你有沒有發現兩家外送員經常都看著平台之間的價格在做他的決定調整對不對因為他們的價格是不太一樣的對不對"},{"start":8642.622,"end":8661.202,"text":"我舉個例子啦齁外送員齁我看過他們的攻略分享齁那個熊貓每單最低是44元加單每單最低是加34元然後Uber Eats每單最低40元加單每單最低加24元齁"},{"start":8662.583,"end":8680.771,"text":"那含不定時加碼．不含燙刺獎勵．UberEats的平均美單65元．那熊貓平均美單75元．基本操勞上面．那麼熊貓對外送員工的待遇．看起來在我看到那個分享說是贏過UberEats"},{"start":8681.351,"end":8696.242,"text":"可是當熊貓變成診病的一方的時候請問外送員的這個所謂的他的去取得更好的一個所謂的那個定價的一個籌勞的這個能力也就下降了嗎 對不對這個要再觀察"},{"start":8700.56,"end":8717.909,"text":"另外外送員在這個兩家平台上提供了很重要的服務．他們是整個外送體系的支柱可是所以兩家公司合併的話我剛剛就前面講他們外送員的工作條件會不會受到影響本來我有兩家可以選變一家"},{"start":8719.059,"end":8736.794,"text":"公平會反對壟斷不就是這個意味嗎 對不對基本上這個外送員的選擇變少這會是一個事實那至於將來他們的之間的這個交易條件等等會有什麼變化這個需要再進一步觀察幾乎不用觀察啦他競價能力就變低了"},{"start":8737.575,"end":8756.73,"text":"所以我覺得公平會你如果真的在審查此案的過程當中外送員的權益保障這個部分一定要考量進去請你們一定要考量進去以上謝謝好謝謝羅志強委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":8766.381,"end":8766.522,"text":"主席"},{"start":8775.118,"end":8800.445,"text":"主委長,我想我們大家都非常關心UberEats跟Foodpanda的合併案那合併案當然要經過公平會的審查但我今天要想問的是在去年的九月份其實有委員針對相關的平台業者對於他們外送員的薪資報酬有一些爭議他有幾個問題當時的就是說他可能會片面改變他們的"},{"start":8801.631,"end":8802.992,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8827.094,"end":8829.016,"text":"所以他們才不在乎公平會的調查"},{"start":8846.843,"end":8852.726,"text":"我的意思是說外送人在去年陳情的時候就是外送平台聯合在砍價第二個全台統一黑箱價不公開不透明現在他們要合併了他們的時間點同時降低外送人的報酬現在那個時候已經形同聯合行為現在進行合併他事實上就是將來合併之後就不用再聯合砍價他就自己砍價就好了"},{"start":8875.077,"end":8895.236,"text":"所以我想問的是八個月你的調查有報告有相關的內容可以提供給我們嗎?所以就算你調查了但是你也沒有做任何處分你有找這些外送產業工會的人溝通過嗎?有瞭解他們的狀況嗎?有瞭解他們個案的情形嗎?有調查他們嗎?"},{"start":8899.281,"end":8918.088,"text":"因為他們告訴我他們什麼都不知道也沒有或許的相關的追蹤我們對於就是這個調查有找這個就是兩個平台主委他們來澄清委員來反映然後你們調查不找他們來不找工會來找跟相關的平台業者來有什麼用嗎如果今天公平會是這樣的方式我現在就很懷疑你們對於將來這個合併案的態度"},{"start":8927.932,"end":8938.877,"text":"有很多人已經說了．如果台灣的公平會不能站在消費者的立場保障消費者的權益保障這些從業人員的權益這個公平會可以廢掉算了八個月前的調查你說沒有證據也沒有找公會的人討論這件事情我們怎麼能夠相信你接下來會公允的討論"},{"start":8949.929,"end":8962.4,"text":"到底有沒有找公會的人過．有沒有討論過．有沒有調查過．主委知道嗎．時間暫停．他有同仁可以幫他補充嗎．有報告嗎．有內容嗎．"},{"start":8966.567,"end":8991.466,"text":"那個我們除了兩家平台業者以外那我們也有找那個我記得我們有找那個外送聯盟的那個請他們提供意見提供意見之後有調查嗎?有結果嗎?有相關的內容回覆給委員嗎?都沒有啊這是怎麼回事啊公平會的調查是自己調查完並高興然後就結案結束誒陳琦那你要回報人家一下啊"},{"start":8993.598,"end":9012.049,"text":"我希望一個禮拜之內把相關的報告拿過來。第二個,如果這個部分當時有這種相關的誠信案件,你們如果沒有調查事實的話,我希望你們重啟調查。第二個部分就是現在的病案。合併案。合併案,你剛剛說有很多的因素要考慮。沒有錯。但是,我們只有幾個要求。"},{"start":9012.509,"end":9037.963,"text":"第一個合作的店家權益要保障消費者的權益羊毛出在羊身上他只要統一調帳消費者一定要付出更高的代價第三個外送員的權益就剛剛講有工會在把他們當成正常人14萬的從業人員他是你必須要考慮而且必須要保護的對象最重要的是美國跟韓國都有制定沖繩的上限"},{"start":9038.763,"end":9067.405,"text":"如果我們的公平會不能在合併案裡面對於他們將來對於商家抽成有相關的規範的話這個公平會也可以廢掉了主委以上是我的意見我希望你一個禮拜把剛剛那個報告交過來那對本案我們會開公聽會會邀請相關的我再說一次如果我們在合併案裡面不能訂定制定抽成的上限比照韓國跟美國公平會也可以廢掉了"},{"start":9068.783,"end":9091.854,"text":"一個禮拜,謝謝。好,謝謝黃珊珊委員。那剛剛黃委員提到的那個調查的報告,我希望﹖對對對,我想也一併送經濟委員會。好,謝謝。來,接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言。主席,謝謝。好,主席再麻煩請李主委。來,請李主委。"},{"start":9098.82,"end":9108.527,"text":"好 主委 所以現在到目前為止很多委員都質詢跟關心這個Fupenda跟Uber E這個合併我們目前有沒有既定的態度跟立場"},{"start":9110.694,"end":9127.244,"text":"我想這個結合案我們有我們的處理原則那我們會根據申請人所提供的資料以及我們的沒有既定的立場跟態度嗎是不是我們要依據這個資料來審慎來評估是所以沒有說一定讓他併購或是不讓他併購"},{"start":9129.125,"end":9148.775,"text":"議員目前才在檢視這些文件,還沒有說是,所以我想要接下來的問題,因為你們提出來是說即將四大面向審查重點啊。我覺得現在就已經可以告訴你啦,市場集中度一定是高度集中嘛,併購的定價能力一定都是賣方市場嘛。"},{"start":9149.622,"end":9149.782,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":9169.861,"end":9190.529,"text":"十四萬的外送員以及消費者因為消費者他已經只有這樣的一個外送平台可以選擇當然你說有沒有後來的競爭者有可能有但是他的市場規模跟市場機制完全會跟這樣一個如果說合併完之後的一個平台不符合正比啊所以如果說你只講是說要看到這審查重點這事項的話那是不是就會有一個偏撥的一個部分"},{"start":9197.642,"end":9227.185,"text":"有沒有可能?我們要針對申請人所提供的資料那根據這幾個審查面向會審慎去評估那另外我再請教如果要開公聽會預計要開幾場?座談會公聽會預計要開幾場?會看情形會看情形就是公聽會我們沒有說一定是開幾場但是一定會開一定會開那利害關係人也都會找到但因為利害關係人現在可能遍佈全台餐廳遍佈全台外送員遍佈全台消費者遍佈全台"},{"start":9229.084,"end":9254.33,"text":"應該會有一些團體公會,我們會邀請,還有跨機關。但既然是公聽會,當然就要傾聽各界的意見跟聲音嘛。是不是?我想公聽會或座談會絕對不會是淪為一個過水、過場的機制。我想你也不認同嘛。不會。所以既然如此的話,台灣各縣市,不敢講說各縣市都要開,但是不是至少北中南?"},{"start":9255.7,"end":9281.555,"text":"至少都要開這個公聽會怎麼進行我們會再做一個判斷因為我們的審查期間就是30天再加60天90天所以如何有效處理如何有效處理效率很重要但是我們請聽民意很重要瞭解地方行政也很重要是不是來在者我想請教其實這一個也是本席現在到目前為止"},{"start":9282.555,"end":9310.587,"text":"我請同仁去找資料還沒有找到我們公平會因應這樣的一個非常大的一個併購案有人講是說這可能是臺灣除了半逃避產業以外最大比的一個金額併購到目前我們有沒有去找世界各國有沒有其他的案例這兩家的結合就是富編達跟烏貝易我們沒有看到其他沒有嘛 對不對所以臺灣可能會變成首例那其他世界各國有沒有多家外送平台他們併購"},{"start":9312.284,"end":9338.858,"text":"或者是說有沒有世界各國現在已經存在一家獨大外送平台獨大的一個狀況。我可以了解其他國家有外送平台結合的例子但不是這兩家。是那結合的例子?也跟委員說明我們就是說這個案子第一大跟第二大結合是非常少見市場結構會一定會影響完全會影響所以在不管是國際上或是"},{"start":9340.165,"end":9340.465,"text":"二、審查８一）"},{"start":9352.196,"end":9352.456,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":9370.518,"end":9396.448,"text":"是本時要提出來的重點就在於是因為接下來你們30天再加60天總共90天一個審理一定因為既然是遇到首例然後既然是外送平台是這幾年我們甚至講說成熟了可能是這6年這7年之間的一個狀況所以案例的部分我覺得公平會應該有事先做瞭解其他國家的一個狀況那還有最重要其實大家都一樣"},{"start":9397.188,"end":9413.8,"text":"我們之前一直念茲在茲就是外送員以及外送平台的保障法、基本法、專法到目前為止還沒有辦法定立而勞動部或是相關的部落等下也會去衛生委員會請教我們的新任勞動部長他對於外送平台跟外送員的專法他的立場跟態度"},{"start":9414.781,"end":9438.699,"text":"但最重要的是我們看到很多世界各國他們也因應這樣子的一個專法能夠訂出不管是抽成的上限不管是每一個接單外送員的基本的接單的工資還有包括說消費者的一個這個付出的一些代價等等的部分都有一些明確的保障用意就是不要讓不管是兩家龍頭或是一家獨大"},{"start":9439.58,"end":9464.952,"text":"因為市場的寡占或是壟斷而造成消費者、餐廳跟外送員的一個權益受損。但在還沒有辦法有專法之前,公平會一定要審慎評估這一次兩大龍頭的一個併購案。是的。謝謝。好。謝謝黃孟楷委員。接下來請莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在,我們請黃婕委員。"},{"start":9479.056,"end":9495.065,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請公平會主委。來,請你主委。主委好,請教一下我手上的這個袋子接下來還有機會用到嗎?"},{"start":9500.066,"end":9506.347,"text":"請回答這個要看結合事業將來的營業模式這就是今天大家想問你的Uber Eats跟熊貓接下來非常有機會併購嗎那接下來公平會的審查到底目前你們的判斷是什麼我手上的這個袋子會不會變成絕版品啊"},{"start":9525.134,"end":9550.47,"text":"我講一下現在這個併購的案子因為其實公平會確實第一時間有出來講但是過去你們也調查八個月了你們第一時間就出來說如果這兩間合併的話市佔率會超過八成也就是說剩下目前還有其他的三間包括福多摩然後蝦皮外送、街口外送這三間的規模跟市佔率絕對沒有辦法跟Uber Eats併購熊貓之後來相抗衡是這樣對嗎?"},{"start":9560.221,"end":9587.712,"text":"結合之後,併購方在市場上會有相當大的一個市場力量,這個是事實。是八成以上嗎?到底多少比例,這個要看市場界定,還會再清楚算。所以到現在還算不出來,市佔率是多少?不是,我們委員上提到那個八成,我們在109年的時候有算過,但是因為現在時空背景不一樣,必須要重新來評估。"},{"start":9588.832,"end":9614.68,"text":"那什麼時候算得出來大家很關心嘛現在小店家很關心消費者很關心外送員也很擔心全台灣14萬的外送員很擔心說接下來他們的權益會不會更被剝奪很多小店家也很擔心抽成的比例會不會變更高很多外送的使用者在我相信在場很多人平常都會叫外送啦"},{"start":9615.862,"end":9640.169,"text":"大家也很擔心會不會到時候變相的不斷漲價沒有人能夠去跟這樣的非常龐大規模的消費模式來做抗衡這是公平會現在應該要做的啊所以我到目前為止還聽不出來你們到底在審查程序進行到如何了你們有沒有趕快先算一下說他們合併上造成的限制競爭的效果到哪裡了"},{"start":9641.564,"end":9664.886,"text":"你可不可以告訴我?我跟委員說明一下我們的結合審查程序是這樣就是他送件以後文件必須要齊備文件齊備以後我們受理了審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再延長60天那所以您剛才所審查的期限是幾月幾號?因為現在文件還在審理當中我們必須要文件都齊備才開始起算這30天"},{"start":9666.047,"end":9686.446,"text":"所以你們有預先做任何準備了嗎?請問就你們的判斷現在如果UberEats併購熊貓之後會不會被認定是限制競爭?應該是說我們會評斷很多面向那您剛才提到的就是包括他的交易相對人、外送員、餐廳甚至是消費者這些戀愛關係人跟併購方將來的溢價能力"},{"start":9690.669,"end":9714.66,"text":"這就是我們最擔心的因為我已經可以想像UberEats接下來會說什麼他會說合併之後我們就產生規模經濟啊成本價格下降啊服務會變更好啊經營效率變更高啊他們的說辭大家都已經知道了所以我想知道的是公平會的態度能不能在接下來對消費者對店家對外送員進行保障嗎尤其是外送員現在非常擔心因為其實在這個過程當中外送費一直在調漲"},{"start":9719.562,"end":9719.722,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":9738.354,"end":9738.514,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":9765.08,"end":9787.53,"text":"我們對這個結合案會去評估對競爭秩序的影響那剛才您談到的這些面向都會在考慮裡面拜託如果你們至少要告訴大家接下來的併購案會不會造成限制競爭接下來Uber Eats的說辭你們有沒有辦法做最嚴格的把關嗎好不好要在委員會裡面討論以後"},{"start":9791.945,"end":9819.113,"text":"主委我希望接下來還有機會看到這個袋子上面的logo可以繼續使用可以讓大家知道說這個市場上還是有多元的選擇消費者不會被欺壓啦謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在羅廷偉羅廷偉羅廷偉我們不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉我們不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我們不在我們請蔡易宇委員發言"},{"start":9835.741,"end":9849.612,"text":"主席,那我們是不是請我們李主委。李主委好。"},{"start":9850.64,"end":9877.643,"text":"主委這個還是先從關鍵的問題來請教一下啦就是說公平交易法事實上有一些名詞的定義但是這些名詞的定義並沒有一個清楚的一個分成號的一個數字的一個展現所以我想要請教主委就完全競爭跟所謂的寡戰市場跟獨佔市場這三個要怎麼區分"},{"start":9880.72,"end":9902.294,"text":"有定義嗎?處於一個沒有競爭的狀態是一個獨占嗎?沒有競爭所以就是他占有市場是100%就是獨占不一定是100%就是看在市場上處於沒有競爭沒有競爭那如果對手太弱對手可能只占著5%他占了95%或者是他占了90%這樣算獨占嗎?那個95%應該一般來看應該已經是獨占95%啊90算嗎?"},{"start":9910.034,"end":9916.451,"text":"我們是用這個50啦,用50來看就很可能是獨占了。喔,超過50就獨占了?"},{"start":9917.698,"end":9944.745,"text":"那定義上獨佔超過50就算了喔那寡佔呢?就是它是幾個面向的齁這是幾個面向好沒關係我們先不要管太多面向啦最主要就是沒有競爭狀態就是獨佔對我們先用直白的競爭的這個角度來思考來看這個法條的所謂定義好不好所以獨佔是指你的主委意思說可能在50%以上那可能就是沒有競爭就會變獨佔有可能有可能那寡佔呢?"},{"start":9947.932,"end":9948.372,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":9967.927,"end":9968.968,"text":"二（二年前也有很"},{"start":9996.99,"end":9997.411,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":10017.626,"end":10037.717,"text":"一哥跟二哥分別吃下了一些小老弟那他們把小老弟排除掉了有可能會變成寡占嗎?因為前年跟大陸發病我們當時的算他的市占率其實才30幾那臺灣的零售從事零售行業的業者是相當多當然啦我知道很多嘛可是畢竟他是大哥啊他當時算出來是"},{"start":10040.778,"end":10044.563,"text":"二哥也是要再吃掉一哥。Uber Eats要吃掉Fu Panda。"},{"start":10061.417,"end":10075.913,"text":"那以剛剛主委你講的可能到了50%的一個市場他可能就已經是到獨占了那寡占可能就是像聽起來你認為在三十幾%的時候還不構成寡占因為你說全年吃掉"},{"start":10077.354,"end":10078.255,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10097.932,"end":10125.119,"text":"不同的產業有不同的情況其實很難用加數或者是比例要看它整個市場競爭的狀況總是有一些比較直白的認定因為大家消費者都是這樣去看說到底我們這一個我們生活的環境裡面遇到這個產業這個產業它有沒有處在一個壟斷或者是一個寡占的一個規模這個我想大家心裡都有數"},{"start":10126.119,"end":10155.029,"text":"那主委你這樣來看的話那這樣的一個外送平台他們到底是兩個加起來會變獨佔還是寡佔?兩個加起來市占率那麼高應該可以到獨佔的情況兩個加起來就獨佔了好啊如果既然這樣的話就是說這兩個一哥二哥並一哥會變成獨佔的一個市場那是不是未來所有的交易的一個條件都是由這個新的"},{"start":10156.243,"end":10161.687,"text":"二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．"},{"start":10185.282,"end":10185.522,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":10204.378,"end":10229.105,"text":"對兩家公司結合不管是在公司法或是這個其他的這個法律都會有一些權利義務如何交接的問題那就公平會來講我們審查的是對競爭秩序的影響所以這個面向會包括將來的市場集中度還有這個併購方將來這個台價的能力還有交易相對的我們剛剛提到這個外送員餐廳或者是消費者我舉例我舉例"},{"start":10230.925,"end":10232.426,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10260.25,"end":10269.302,"text":"那復編大以前禁止僱用的會回來嗎?這是也涉及到一些勞動條件就是他們自己條件所以這部分都不在你們的"},{"start":10270.458,"end":10295.658,"text":"你們的考量範圍．我們會考慮到這一些外送員過去．他們不用把這些狀況跟你們報告嗎就是說我們這兩家併購了那麼未來要怎麼運作這件事也要讓你們知道吧我們會需要了解我們都會去了解啊這需要了解嗎我們將來跟外送員的部分除了我們會徵詢利害關係人外送員的意見也會跟勞動部跨機關來做交換意見"},{"start":10297.379,"end":10313.039,"text":"對你除了遵循外送人意見我覺得你最主要要先問清楚這兩家到底他們過去他們所有的權益關係包括跟商家包括跟外送人他們的權益關係在於他們如果併購"},{"start":10314.605,"end":10314.785,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10332.793,"end":10332.933,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":10363.896,"end":10365.339,"text":"陳超明 陳超明 陳超明委員不在"},{"start":10375.08,"end":10397.256,"text":"好,登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束另外有林黛樺委員、陳冠廷委員、陳昌明委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會我們現在開始進行審查多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論"},{"start":10399.177,"end":10411.746,"text":"廣泛討論沒有人登記發言請議事人員宣讀條文宣讀完畢以後我們再進行協商請宣讀多層次傳銷管理法委員邱志偉等人提案第十三條多層次傳銷事業與傳銷商參加其傳銷計劃或組織時"},{"start":10415.949,"end":10442.88,"text":"因與傳銷商締結書面參加契約．並交付契約正本．前項之書面得以電子文件為之。委員楊瓊英等人提案第十三條．同委員邱志偉等人提案。宣讀完畢。好,我們現在開始進行協商。來,我們差一位齁。走入中嗎?"},{"start":10446.782,"end":10448.783,"text":"來,那個蔡議委員對條文有沒有意見?"},{"start":10474.117,"end":10492.569,"text":"我想要請教一下這個主委以電子文件這個書面用電子文件它的差距主要在哪邊?如果現在電子文件的話對於這個參加多層次傳銷的人他的權利的一個保障會不會不夠?"},{"start":10497.537,"end":10521.935,"text":"好,薛委現在是一定要書面白紙黑字有一個紙本那今天的這個草案是說除了書面以外也可以選擇用電子方式那因為電子方式其實還是可以下載看到內容所以我們認為對在這個數位經濟時代大家對這個電子文件接受度也高那權利義務不會受影響但是如果用電子的文件很多常常就是"},{"start":10524.178,"end":10549.769,"text":"就是說我在閱讀,閱讀它的文字的習慣很容易就是會直接把它刷掉、滑過去。雖然紙本很多人也是…也是…但是如果用電子的話會不會比例又提高,那這個會不會造成我們這樣的一些文件他們的閱讀不夠,所以他們不清楚它的權利與關係。"},{"start":10552.005,"end":10552.185,"text":"好,來請邱志偉委員。"},{"start":10576.817,"end":10576.897,"text":"二、審查（"},{"start":10595.525,"end":10624.101,"text":"所以第一個你節省很多這個文書作業也節省減碳、無紙化那這個當然要趕上時代的趨勢所以我們有電子簽商法對不對那很多的公部門這些公文書很多是用電子來所以它契約當然是固然重要但是基本上它的這個真實性、安全性跟資訊的揭露這完整性都沒有問題只要三點沒有問題"},{"start":10624.941,"end":10651.751,"text":"我想這個我們就可以打到這個電子化用電子文件我想這個主委那個公平會議應該是樂觀其成吧好好謝謝好來呃單仁委員好那我可不可以再補問一下了那既然如此的話為什麼之前公平會沒有主動來提出這樣的一個修法的建議如果你們認為這個其實可以做得到為什麼當時並沒有主委要不要說明一下好不好"},{"start":10653.215,"end":10676.891,"text":"在上會期,我們有多位委員,好幾個版本都有提到這個議題。那我們認為說,這個委員的版本裡面都有這個十三條的修正案。那在那邊審查已經...所以你們在上一屆期就同意了是不是?是。好,就第十三條。第十三條不...就是以電子方式維持...所以你們上一屆...那為什麼上一屆沒有來通過?因為上一屆它有很多個條文,有一些條文意見..."},{"start":10678.809,"end":10680.289,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10706.016,"end":10730.79,"text":"原則上可以支持啦但是我想要呼籲公平會的就是說他們是不是在於電子文件的一些主要內容就是涉及到他們權利這個多層次傳銷的參加人他的權利義務涉及到比較重要的比方說會不會被片面解約或者是他們涉及到裡面的一些"},{"start":10732.851,"end":10756.91,"text":"有一些分紅啊一些重要的條文是不是應該要請他們設計不能藏匿在我這一篇這個電子文件就寫了一大堆然後就藏匿在裡面是不是可以把他們重要認為是屬於重要的交易事項是要在電子文件裡面比較清楚的讓他展明出來"},{"start":10758.041,"end":10781.259,"text":"在這個參加契約應該記載哪些事項現在我們採報備是我們都會去看這些契約的內容要讓他很清楚所以這部分我們有在這個我意思就是說因為你現在電子文件嘛所以那個問題很多熱熱的就沒人要看是是是你要怎麼保障他們就是說他們可不可以做分頁的方式因為電子頁可以第一頁第二頁嘛"},{"start":10782.06,"end":10785.381,"text":"好,謝謝各位委員的意見表達,那請問各位委員對於這兩個委員的提案有沒有意見?"},{"start":10803.288,"end":10820.198,"text":"好,沒有的話,我們是不是就依照邱志偉委員、楊卓英委員的提案條文通過,好嗎?好,謝謝。好,討論事項所列多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案,並案審訊完畢。擬具審查報告提報院會討論,請問需不需要交由黨團協商?"},{"start":10823.536,"end":10834.556,"text":"不須交黨團協商．約會討論時由本席代表說明．通過之條文相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理．本日議程處理完略．現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15941","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d6cf3c1b5b9bab9d4a74692de86cf8f7f3be8d109af184be4f27e357327e0c02f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-23","start_time":"2024-05-23T08:30:39+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:58:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16041,"委員發言時間":"08:30:39 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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":1839.773,"end":1845.358,"text":"那我們首先就先請吳主委來進行口頭的報告時間10分鐘主席各位委員先進大家好感謝各位委員對國家科技政策的重視很榮幸出席大院教育及文化委員會就國科會業務進行報告"},{"start":1870.851,"end":1899.621,"text":"全球面臨氣候變遷激烈人口結構失衡地緣政治變化的多重挑戰臺灣天然資源有限應以無限之科技潛力化挑戰為契機打造智慧科技島國科會與薄化科技政策資源基礎研究推動創新創業完善科學園區等四大任務之下秉持專業穩健前瞻的傳承信念"},{"start":1900.481,"end":1915.081,"text":"配合總統五大信賴產業持續引領台灣邁向2035前瞻創新、民主包容、韌性永續的科技願景。緊就未來施政重點說明如何首先"},{"start":1916.092,"end":1931.275,"text":"接棒雙軸轉型領跑科技新舉2023年底科技顧問會議對我國半導體及AI和近鄰科技這兩項重大議題發展提出高端原組的建言"},{"start":1932.353,"end":1953.886,"text":"國科會與此兩大領域已有穩健務實的前瞻佈局後續將以行動創新精神推展今年啟動之精創台灣方案強化先進及成熟製程晶片在各類產業的多元應用期望透過AI的發展"},{"start":1955.715,"end":1957.558,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":1972.115,"end":1991.176,"text":"將相關科技應用於太空、量子、6G、次世代通信等未來潛力領域讓不同產業互相加值向上進進。相得益彰。於淨零領域持續協同相關部會落實淨零科技方案透過能源低碳"},{"start":1993.164,"end":2018.845,"text":"負擔、循環、人設等面向協助產業近鄰轉型同時發揮海洋國家優勢探索海洋科研全方位邁向永續台灣此外今年底將召開12次全國科學技術會議廣納產官學院各界意見破壞未來4年具體可行的國家科學技術發展計畫"},{"start":2021.001,"end":2047.832,"text":"第二、扶植基礎研究培育多元人才尖端技術奠基於基礎科學的長期成果國科會核心使命是鞏固基礎科研透過穩定且適度成長的預算支持學研界持續深化前瞻科研也藉由鼓勵基礎科研的各項獎補助措施吸引更多學生投入研究"},{"start":2048.812,"end":2070.667,"text":"後指未來科研人才同時兼顧援助民主性別平衡生育支持等多元需求營造友善的科研環境藉由有形及無形質量兼具的全面支持策略起始學研界無後顧之憂的深耕基礎科研進而開發結果高階人才是國家創新的資本國科會也將透過"},{"start":2083.892,"end":2096.659,"text":"科研國際合作的推動因地制宜策略性的引進國際人才鼓勵海外科研人才回流逐步培養我國系統城市的人才"},{"start":2098.164,"end":2120.279,"text":"進而吸引國際投資臺灣提升科技與產業的競爭力讓我國人才及技術比肩全球科技來自人性科技亦需結合人文方能大放異彩近來AI大舉影響各行各業轉型的浪潮下也是人文社會導入科研"},{"start":2121.841,"end":2139.866,"text":"擴展跨域的契機人工智慧以人為首國科會將力推跨領域研究引導科技資源投入創新解決方案並鼓勵人文及科技對話交流萌生創新研發的文化"},{"start":2140.919,"end":2151.655,"text":"以蘊含人文精神的科技協助改善社會議題進一步培養出兼具洞察社會需求能力的創新人才塑造多元包容的社會文化"},{"start":2153.254,"end":2177.588,"text":"第三催生健康台灣共創全民幸福國人運動風氣日盛國科會將發展適合全民的運動科技除了藉助創新技術協助選手量身精進訓練期待能在巴黎奧運再創佳績同時普及全民運動鼓勵產學界開發AI相關產品協助民眾強健身心體魄"},{"start":2178.889,"end":2199.592,"text":"國科會將藉助台灣半導體優勢、跨部會合作、深耕精準醫療、藉助前瞻學術研究並善用大數據與AI運算能量致力於早期篩檢重大疾病之技術研發、發展預防醫學、開發新穎生物標記及疾病風險評估模式。"},{"start":2200.473,"end":2214.621,"text":"持續整合生醫等跨領域研發能量投入精準健康智慧醫療運動科技高齡產業等領域增進國人健康共創全民幸福"},{"start":2215.501,"end":2234.579,"text":"第四、致力創新轉型、構築永續園區推動科研創業為國科會政策重點之一將透過強化引進國際創投資金、吸引各國創業精英等途徑策略性鏈結全球資源、壯大台灣創新創業生態系"},{"start":2236.821,"end":2245.884,"text":"此外規劃提供先進運算能力磨合市場法務財快等專業領域發展異業AI新創提升產業競爭力國科會以全國高度規劃發展科學園區3個園區目前"},{"start":2256.548,"end":2276.919,"text":"共進駐1100余家廠商,帶動超過32萬高階人才就業,創造3.9兆元的產值,將兼顧區域及生態均衡發展,全力推動各案新設及擴建計劃如期如止完成。"},{"start":2277.879,"end":2295.411,"text":"除了全力鞏固我國半導體全球領先地位更要全心協助產業升值轉型展現台灣整體產業群聚價值強化全球競爭力朝向精緻多元節能永續的典範科學園區邁進"},{"start":2297.967,"end":2321.243,"text":"最後有關113年度主管公務預算的解凍案包括採團法人國家實驗研究院國家同步輻射研究中心及非營業特種基金等共凍結7案約3900萬元針對委員關心的議題國會已督促國研院等法人強化推廣研發成果專利應用"},{"start":2322.183,"end":2342.245,"text":"並均衡支援各地區大學院校的服務能量持續完善核心設施並積極落實科發基金預算案推動整體科技發展的相關工作國家的科技政策應長期累積且延續國科會將持續推動各項前瞻政策"},{"start":2343.697,"end":2368.147,"text":"在規劃層面強調跨部會協作整合國家科技資源跨領域融合人文與科技跨產業協助創新轉型發揮跨界縱向資源層面與創新突破與普惠共享間宏觀且前瞻的配置科技預算將科技運用在社會民生福祉有關的領域與議題"},{"start":2371.789,"end":2382.703,"text":"穩步引領台灣共創包容永續的智慧科技島以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持並敬祝各位身體健康順心如意謝謝好謝謝謝謝我們吳主委的口頭報告"},{"start":2394.731,"end":2404.397,"text":"我們現在進行綜合詢答每位初期委員質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘立期委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員落臨時提案僅於10點30分前提出"},{"start":2415.243,"end":2433.496,"text":"並於本會委員羅廷偉委員質詢結束後進行解凍案及臨時提案的處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理我們首先就請發言登記第一位我們的柯之恩昭委質詢謝謝昭委我們請我們的吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":2446.431,"end":2453.797,"text":"主委好你今天站在立法院備詢跟你過去當少棒國手站在投手球上面的感覺是如何?雖然是不同的不同的場合但是身為先發投手我一定投好球但是你今天不是先發投手今天是我當投手你來接球好不好"},{"start":2472.031,"end":2477.334,"text":"而且你過去當過投手當過二壘手你當過游擊手都是一個非常所以今天給你當一個你從來沒有當過的捕手的角色看你有沒有辦法接到我所發出的球好不好好我們先來看一下這個賴總統呢他認為這自詡他的團隊是AI內閣所以我想他對於這個半導體的科技計畫是非常的重視你也是這方面的一個專家我們就一一來檢視雖然你剛剛上任但是你應該看過國科會過去一些補助大專院校的這些的計畫"},{"start":2501.545,"end":2507.752,"text":"你對於他們推動相關的半導體科技的計畫的成效你有掌握還是你會不會滿意到目前為止我其實有相當程度的掌握因為我也是其中一位你滿意嗎?國科會過去補助的計畫的成效"},{"start":2521.04,"end":2539.188,"text":"算是滿意啦算是滿意那我們來看看數據來說話一下好不好你們過去花了非常多的時間在不同的計劃方案上面可是呢我不用一一條列這個數字不同的方案但是你會發現一個共同的公約數就是呢逐年年次的申請的人數是逐年下降的那這樣一個逐年下降來說的話主委為什麼會造成這樣一個結果"},{"start":2545.47,"end":2565.163,"text":"你們說經費變多了但是申請的人數案件反而變少了你覺得這最大的原因是什麼?不瞞主委說其實我們整個高等教育的人力包含教授人數跟學生人數其實是在下降當中這一點其實是"},{"start":2566.218,"end":2578.207,"text":"所以你認為可能是因為人數下降的關係所以他們投注在你們所花費最多的半導體的人才上面可能因為這樣就讓人才的申請案就會慢慢下降嗎?這是一個原因是?人數下降?好啦那就是人才的問題了我們再看往下來看一下啊主委員你不要緊張啊這個絕對比你這個還要那個"},{"start":2587.173,"end":2587.313,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":2606.883,"end":2622.544,"text":"而且呢你跟其他國家是完全不能比而且呢跟過去10年前動輒打到9.8經費的占比來說我們的基礎研究你也知道基礎研究是非常重要的到目前為止我們的比例是非常低的你有沒有什麼其他有用的一個做法"},{"start":2624.976,"end":2638.585,"text":"謝謝委員指教這一點我是認同就是過去我們的科研的投入的這個經費其實跟先進國家比起來是那你有沒有其他積極性的一個做法我們現在"},{"start":2640.68,"end":2653.893,"text":"其實在前政委吳正宗的支持已經有擴充了我們的科技預算未來會持續再增加對你就提到了你們擴大的科技預算但是還是一句話你們申請的建樹"},{"start":2660.439,"end":2665.063,"text":"還有包括的這個人數我來給你看一個數據啊競參連的申請的這個件數啊少了1333件你合定少了625件所以你們不斷的告訴我們你們的確是非常的重視這樣的一個產業啊但是呢也給了一些的錢但是呢從數據來看的話顯然沒有達到很大的一個效果而且我特別的強調如果你沒有基礎研究這個半導體的話啊"},{"start":2686.4,"end":2691.824,"text":"我覺得賴總統所謂的要信賴這個產業我個人覺得是畫上一個非常大的一個問號的我們再來看一下我們來看一下下一頁這就是為什麼我特別提到的因為呢上一次我們在這裡的時候你們李敏崇副主委他特別坦誠因為國家投入基礎研究的預算太低"},{"start":2706.275,"end":2719.439,"text":"但8年過去了到底有什麼方法可以來做這樣的一個處理而且呢我告訴各位因為你們認為說希望民間能夠鼓勵更多的投入基礎的研究但稀累全國的基礎研究大概685億企業部門只佔9.4%一成都不到所以你們雖然喊出一個很大的一個口號希望企業界能夠投入可是目前為止成效是非常糟糕的還有呢"},{"start":2734.224,"end":2752.476,"text":"主委你也在學校待過嘛每個人都說你只要學校框上一個AI的名號就有辦法申請比較多的一個經費你看看嘛加了一個人工智慧加上一個電腦科學跟人工智慧加上什麼連包了一個智能應用組名字都取得非常的好聽但是主委你也知道老師如果不再出去進修老師如果不會跟業界再繼續做結合光是同學老師用20年前的教材怎麼有辦法改個名字就有辦法讓我們的AI的人才的進步就可以存在這點你同意吧"},{"start":2763.433,"end":2779.406,"text":"同意這個球就是直接接到了他們說三振或者是好球很straight非常好但是我還是要告訴你做了哪些很不好的地方你看我們歷年申請的件數我一直覺得這個申請的件數雖然是一個量化可是它是一個參考值來說那你會看到這個申請的一個件數包括你們過去非常強調的新秀學者、年輕學者、優秀年輕學者你看看"},{"start":2790.235,"end":2797.319,"text":"整個的件數來說的話足足少了目前只剩下1158主委數學算一下足足少了635個人這是比率是非常高幾乎像是腰斬一樣我們再看下面一個我現在只呈現這些數據給主委回去做一個參考你看我們今天人次的表講座教授、課座教授、國會會的講座人數也逐次的降低我覺得讓我最擔心的一件事情是什麼你看"},{"start":2816.428,"end":2822.969,"text":"你十年來的計劃補助在台灣參與你花了這麼多的錢即使我認為人才是應該流通事業性流通的但是我們資助的這些本國籍的博士後你看一城市是提早離開的在簽約完一城市提早離開的那外國籍的這個人更不要講他根本有四成的人是返回他母國任教的雖然人才是流通但是我們花這些錢把這些培養好每個人都走掉了那怎麼辦"},{"start":2844.295,"end":2861.203,"text":"的確這是一個問題但是也是值得我們高興的就是說這些人才其實都提早進到產業界了那我們的計畫的件數下降還有一個原因就是因為我們有多年期的計畫在鼓勵所以計畫的件數是下降但是他們的經費是大幅的提升"},{"start":2861.323,"end":2861.343,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":2882.625,"end":2882.645,"text":"議員吳誠文"},{"start":2904.978,"end":2916.87,"text":"打倒你當初的預期目標在你回應這個問題之前我先告訴你一下因為我們目前為止有關於化合物半導體的發展在國外我們晚了非常的多中國大陸他大概是花了44兆來全力發展第三代的半導體而且我們現在目前來說歐美已經掌握了90%的關鍵"},{"start":2924.497,"end":2941.015,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2943.473,"end":2965.759,"text":"所以你看他通常都會投一個直球對不對都不會有曲、彎曲你會達到喔那你到底認為有這麼大的一個信心喔我還是要提醒喔因為我們目前為止在這一塊很多原料會因為地緣政治非常多因素的一些的影響所以呢他會做到這樣的一個程度喔不管你是政法專家我還是給你賦予你比較大的一個鼓勵啦但是呢我還是要特別提到除了你剛剛說的這個層面來之外下面一個我覺得這是非常重要的"},{"start":2971.36,"end":2976.481,"text":"因為這也是你剛報告當中你也認為近鄰轉型也是你們國科會裡面非常重要的但是你看看這個數據你覺得這會是賴總統舊時候跳到第一張票嗎為什麼你看看看我們設定的所有的近鄰排碳的這個目標我問過中研院的廖院長他認為要達到這樣的目標是非常非常困難的我肯定他講出一個實話"},{"start":2993.186,"end":3014.984,"text":"同樣是學者出身這沒有藐視國會這個問題完全沒有好不好這反案還沒有通過我們也不會問這些無聊的問題但是呢你看各國所設定的這些的目標裡面來看的話我們距離賴總統告訴我們要達到淨零排碳的這樣的目標以我們現在的發展的方式來說是遠遠遠遠落後非常多你自己認為呢這也是你們主軸的一個計畫方案嗎這個任務非常艱難我們會努力"},{"start":3021.826,"end":3025.108,"text":"所以各位這個學者專家講的還是比較客觀一個說非常的困難一個說非常的艱難所以呢你們都不願意講其實很困難根本不可能達到因為呢國會已經提到了這個2023到2026你們會每年投入150億的這個經費150億的經費你覺得你的效果可以達到什麼樣的一個程度這是我們很可以"},{"start":3041.977,"end":3063.371,"text":"因為這是賴總統特別承諾大家的往後要這個部分中研院跟國科會這兩個我們號稱全國最聰明的腦袋的人才都在這個地方所以我只問你嘛五大精靈科技到底能夠有沒有辦法提前落實有沒有辦法在2030達到24%減碳的目標主委一句話只求行或不行沒有需求行或不行"},{"start":3069.545,"end":3070.545,"text":"接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":3104.594,"end":3107.678,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請吳誠文主委好有請吳主委好"},{"start":3114.608,"end":3141.398,"text":"主委好,主委非常有拼勁喔昨天帶著新任團隊一致排開跟媒體見面會喔那也誇出海口說三個月要做出有感的成績阿不是規劃,會宣布規劃,不是成績喔,不是做出阿,是規劃要做有感的政策是不是那有感的政策,我還正想要稱讚您說現在敢誇出海口的政務官不多了沒想到你連讓我稱讚的機會都不給我"},{"start":3143.399,"end":3150.945,"text":"我們會把方案推出來好方案推出來那方案推出來什麼樣的一個部分是認為說之前是沒有做好或沒有做主的"},{"start":3152.202,"end":3181.009,"text":"之前比較照顧大型的企業我們將來依照賴總統的指示一定要均衡所有的產業我們希望都能夠受惠於臺灣高科技的實力所以說之前有一些中小企業是比較沒有受惠到嘛所以你要講是說要用數位轉型的計畫對不對有數位轉型的計畫也有跨部會的方案就代表說過去在數位的科技運用在中小企業上是比較薄弱的是不是過去比較比較小但是這是市場機制"},{"start":3182.83,"end":3210.532,"text":"我們現在就是藉助政府的力量來協助來彌補市場機制的不足所以你的方向是會以補助的方式還是引導的方式還是政策導向的方式兩個都有會以什麼樣的方式兩個都有我們希望在學界由國科會來補助在業界由經濟部來補助我們配合教育部來修正我們在學制的發展上面鼓勵教授帶著學生也可以做這些事情"},{"start":3211.252,"end":3212.473,"text":"國科會學界國科會產業界經濟部協調經濟部共同執行本席要問的另外一個問題"},{"start":3230.452,"end":3249.242,"text":"因為你自己有透露說這個整個團隊裡面來講現在外交部林佳龍部長也問說何時可以一起喝咖啡說要討論說如何用科技來協助友邦那另外經濟部長也提出說台灣要到海外設晶片園區的想法是不是"},{"start":3250.626,"end":3271.281,"text":"這一點還在構想還在討論當中還在構想但是因為這個是從媒體這邊看到是您這邊講出來嘛那請教經濟部長既然你現在有跟他有這個talk說海外設晶片園區那請教是到友邦還是非友邦我們沒有講晶片園區其實產業非常多元當然很多的"},{"start":3272.422,"end":3272.762,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":3296.989,"end":3299.833,"text":"我們心心念念認為說AI人工智慧基本法在今年可以推出"},{"start":3314.366,"end":3332.698,"text":"我們規劃中是今年會推出我們是希望說在年底之前一定會做到一定會做到是指送到行政院還是行政院可以推出版本來給立法院審議國會負責就是要送到行政院那目前的方向勒"},{"start":3334.329,"end":3349.567,"text":"目前的方向因為本席心心念念本席我們幾位委員在立法院也已經有AI人工智慧基本法的草案已經出來那當然大家也是希望輸出能夠排審就是最主要要院板這邊要出來大家可以針對這個議題來去做討論嘛"},{"start":3352.33,"end":3367.141,"text":"我們現在正在廣泛的諮詢各界的意見包括學界、業界、民間在國科會在出來之前我相信應該也會有諮詢其他這個公聽會或說相關的一個意見那什麼時候能夠讓大家可以看到一個雛形"},{"start":3368.702,"end":3392.859,"text":"既然你有講是說年底一定會出來那什麼時候能夠有個雛形至少讓大家知道說你的方向以及之前本席也問過其他之前的主委我們到底我們的方向是什麼是要比較走向的是美日兩國這種相對比較開放的地方還是說我們要對於歐盟這邊是相對比較保守或說比較謹慎的地方您的想法"},{"start":3393.598,"end":3419.1,"text":"我認為兩者要兼顧也就是說保護保護民眾這是非常重要的但是我們不能夠忽略掉產業的發展所以我們會兩者兼顧我們在在這個以前少胖的時候沒有二刀流喔不然我覺得你很像大谷祥平喔又投又打講的面面俱到一拼八拼雙拼根啊但是有講好像沒講"},{"start":3420.95,"end":3440.667,"text":"您比較衝著本席第一次見面我覺得大家都是以禮相待而且只要是專業我們以專業論專業這沒有問題但說實在話你一定有你的方向之前主委講是說我們應該會比較朝向美日就是以開放但是我們希望能夠借重AI但是我認為兩者要兼顧"},{"start":3442.376,"end":3468.647,"text":"兩者兼顧我們期待看你的這個版本出來之後到底是怎麼樣的兩者兼顧希望您說到做到再來有提到是說台積電二奈米廠要進駐希望台積電能夠跟流台灣當然我相信台積電也一定全國國人沒有人不相信台積電會跟流台灣因為台積電也是我們中華民國的驕傲但是過去很多台積電的設廠"},{"start":3470.629,"end":3490.37,"text":"應該是由台積電本身來發布但沒有很多時候都是被政府部門被這一些有心人士刻意的發布到最後也是被破取那我們現在想請教您之前有提到是說南部有可能也會有設廠請教現在的進度跟規劃現在沒有具體只是"},{"start":3494.673,"end":3523.191,"text":"只是還在進程當中那當然確確的這個時程應該是由廠商來宣布是,但是您有提到說相信台積電跟流台灣嘛但也有提到南部會有二奈米廠應該會有應該會有我們當然不希望有什麼樣的變數啦大家都不希望有變數但這樣已經有提到嘛所以這個南部會是之前提過的縣市還是有其他的縣市"},{"start":3525.732,"end":3536.441,"text":"在高雄所以預計什麼時程?已經進到建廠的階段了建廠階段"},{"start":3539.056,"end":3563.786,"text":"最後啦本席還是想要請教一下能源的議題啦我看到就是今天我們相關大家也都有顧慮到能源的議題那國科會這邊也有委員委員有包括說我們的童子賢董事長他也是我們現在國科會委員之一那最近童子賢董事長他有提過就說能源的議題他認為能源供應到轉型的時刻而且"},{"start":3565.47,"end":3579.611,"text":"過去他是反核但他現在認為說核能會是一個能夠協助淨零碳排也能夠加速綠能再生的一個過渡的一個階段的取代能源您自己怎麼看有沒有跟這個委員這邊有開過會"},{"start":3581.835,"end":3610.123,"text":"還沒有,目前還沒有那有沒有跟委員這邊有交換過意見我也是從媒體看到這個訊息我認為賴總統他已經宣示我們的施政一定要傾聽民意所以如果說我們的這個社會傾向在能源的發展能夠多元多元的去探討將來我們政府的施政當然還是會以民意為依歸所以沒有所謂的反核生主牌"},{"start":3611.564,"end":3612.844,"text":"我認同反核的意見裡面對於民眾、對於社會"},{"start":3638.462,"end":3638.482,"text":"議員吳誠文"},{"start":3654.748,"end":3683.134,"text":"當然沒有一個人希望我們使用的能源是不安全的但現在包括說不管是火力發電風力發電太陽能發電或是核能發電其實每一項發電也都有它的優點跟缺點我一直強調能源是選擇選擇的部分在於是說你怎麼樣來就取捨因為大家都要用能源嘛所以不應該是汙名化任何一種能源再加上最近七大工業國也有發表聲明他們不再反對核能不再發表反核的立場"},{"start":3684.315,"end":3685.756,"text":"國科會會以科學研究的基礎"},{"start":3699.211,"end":3720.98,"text":"來探討這個議題那我們也會兼顧在人文社會領域對這個議題的關注達到如果有全民的共識那我們當然政府就會依循全民的共識來執行什麼樣的全民共識是你認為的全民共識當然就是在貴院立法院能夠同意政府的施政方向所以如果說不是"},{"start":3722.501,"end":3731.479,"text":"本席這邊講現在我們有一些委員在提到是說我們要延長使用核能的部分所以立法院這邊沒有延長使用核能的議題我們這邊都不會推動是這樣子嗎"},{"start":3735.726,"end":3745.993,"text":"如果在民間討論的結果民意為基礎,我們當然會傾聽民意。我相信立法院是代表民意的。"},{"start":3755.82,"end":3775.605,"text":"之前啊,各位我說實在話啦,這這樣子就有點便宜心事啊,之前啊,一直講是說這個政府就是抱著反核的一個神主牌啊,尤其這是民進黨政府的神主牌啊,那只要這個立法院這邊有提到或說這個藍營這邊有提到是說要使用核能就把"},{"start":3776.604,"end":3799.673,"text":"摸黑徹役攻擊講說這個是危害那現在當然我是尊重您以一個專業的立場可是如果說什麼事情都是在推給立法院現在在做這個研議的時候又要講是說你看這是不是又要再傷害民眾甚至講到那種不實的言論講到說那這樣核廢料怎麼處理核廢料放你家好不好這種"},{"start":3801.328,"end":3823.958,"text":"刻意的扭曲的話術我覺得這都不是一個專業的話術所以其實還是拉過頭來最後我只請教你一個問題2050淨零碳排是現在政府目標方向也是立法院通過的氣候變遷因應法裡面立法的一個明確的一個目標2050淨零碳排能源配比有講到再生能源要佔幾%"},{"start":3829.477,"end":3838.142,"text":"當然這個目標現在是蠻困難的但是我們會努力那至於這個核能的議題本席現在在請教說再生能源要佔幾%"},{"start":3843.537,"end":3869.315,"text":"60到70%啦 來啦主委本席不是要跟你在這種蜘蛛壁教這種地方來考你我只是說再生能源之前提出來的方向2050精靈碳排以現在民進黨政府規劃是要60%到70%是要全再生能源那以現在的技術跟科技你認為可以做得到嗎不要再講說要努力大家都要努力啦你覺得能做到嗎"},{"start":3870.888,"end":3897.893,"text":"相當困難相當困難嘛所以我們要比較務實的來看待有什麼樣的能源是可以我還是強調能源是選擇火力發電是一種能源核能發電是一種能源再生能源是一種能源但是怎麼樣務實的滿足國人的需求滿足產業的需求能夠供電無虞又電價相對大家能夠負擔的情況下我們找出最好的能源配比我想這才是一個做科學的精神也才是一個務實的精神"},{"start":3898.453,"end":3905.135,"text":"所以既然再生能源60到70%非常困難是不是應該真的要進入到能源轉型的轉型時刻我們會在國科會我們會請專家群來研討這個議題過去並沒有很未來有機會賴總統要"},{"start":3918.116,"end":3928.202,"text":"請教國科會專業意見的時候請一定要本於專業的提出正確的方向來讓總統跟上位者來做決策 可以嗎?同意 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝洪孟楷委員好 我們接下來請葛如君委員"},{"start":3950.925,"end":3952.428,"text":"謝謝主席,有請吳誠文主委備詢。"},{"start":3964.68,"end":3969.443,"text":"主委好,我們都是科技人2019 2019年的時候我去參加ACM Mob研討會的時候就了解到災防簡訊是有可能也可以被駭客劫持並且偽造發送的我們這邊做一個情境我們收到了一個簡訊而且是總統級的警報"},{"start":3983.89,"end":3989.477,"text":"說這個北部沿海地區發生地震引發了海嘯預計著請大家趕快疏散然後英文說destructive force caused by typhoon in this area take shelter as soon as possible而且還連續發了兩則看起來煞有其事"},{"start":4001.972,"end":4025.633,"text":"如果駭客透過政府的平台發出了這個訊息給全國的民眾大家趕快移動結果發現並沒有海嘯一開始還有點猶豫到底是颱風還是海嘯主委覺得這樣的情況對民眾來說算不算一種犯罪算不算一種詐欺故意傳送錯誤訊息而且還透過國科會底下的災防告檢系統來散布政府該不該將這個駭客繩之以法"},{"start":4028.284,"end":4045.013,"text":"應該的應該的應該嗎?真的什麼不好意思我也覺得應該民眾散佈假訊息可能被查辦但今天如果散佈假訊息的是政府呢?政委是不是也覺得應該要主委同時也是政委是不是應該比照辦理主委還記不記得今年總統大選是哪一天我直接回答1月13號選舉前4天1月9號我們國家發生了一件很轟動的事主委記得是什麼嗎?1月9號我們其實有提示"},{"start":4057.797,"end":4064.94,"text":"那個飛彈的信息3點16分1月9號國家級飛彈警報您對這個警報有印象嗎我是從媒體看到看起來您有沒有收到應該有2300人都有收到如果您手機沒收到你可能要檢查一下應該都要有否則就是你們的系統可能有點問題或者你主動關掉希望您打開因為您的身份現在很重要好不好我們希望您可以很安全好"},{"start":4083.409,"end":4110.242,"text":"這個警報看起來很像真的還連發兩則英文寫的MISO當時的陳建仁院長說看錯了是衛星但他一開始說是飛彈我們現場在座有記者就是外國朋友許多的國人還有外國的單位都收到這個警報的時候都嚇壞了以為真的軍事攻擊好在後來國防部在一個小時以後也就是4點15分開了記者會澄清但是一個小時民眾已經可以從台北逃難搭高鐵到台中"},{"start":4112.583,"end":4138.52,"text":"但是災防細胞的這個簡訊廣播的系統在你們CBS的網站上有公告各部會的訊息範本這些範本有很大的重要性應該要照範本來我們才能知道哪些訊息是真的政府發出來而不是駭客發出來的那本席曾經詢問過國會說這個訊息我們是不是要查核有沒有符合範本你們說災防中心建立的廣播系統只是平台"},{"start":4138.88,"end":4157.933,"text":"你們沒有權力檢核各部會發出的訊息內容對嗎我們幫你看一下國防部到昨天5月22日為止的CBS網站訊息範本可以看到只有飛彈相關的範本沒有衛星但是國防部1月9號的警報首先發出了中文衛星的訊息明顯不是訊息範本內容"},{"start":4160.835,"end":4183.67,"text":"而且還連發兩次後來雖然英文改正為launch vehicle但是現在launch vehicle這個詞也還沒有更新到這個訊息上飛彈的訊息不夠而且衛星的內容也沒有launch vehicle也沒有更新再次凸顯依然不是訊息範本的內容國科會到底有沒有要來確認我先確認國科會的邏輯來說發出警報的單位是不是應該要負責確認發出警報訊息的內容"},{"start":4193.176,"end":4219.756,"text":"信息的內容是由主責單位負責我們只是建立平台而已很好很好所以後續的更正是不是也是由發出警報的單位來處理CBS網站上的記錄這邊除了說改正後的訊息外備注國防部更正我想請教這裡的國防部更正是誰要求更正誰要求備注還是國科會自主發起還是國防部提出是國防部"},{"start":4220.416,"end":4238.746,"text":"國防部提出嘛那請國科學簡單說明一下3點16分發出飛彈警報17分第二則到CBS網站上注記國防部更正4點50分中間這段時間發生了什麼事情誰聯繫災防中心破獲什麼方式聯絡歷史記錄在哪裡有沒有公務預算的記錄我請不然我們怎麼知道是不是駭客打電話去跟你們說我是國防部請你們更正啊"},{"start":4246.903,"end":4249.964,"text":"這個細節是不是請我們在防中心主任回答委員好從3點16分以後到他更正的4點50分的左右我們有確認就是說發布的這個要更改的那一位國防部的承辦人還有國防部的窗口兩方面都確認好有訊息嗎有沒有公文"},{"start":4272.671,"end":4285.696,"text":"有,我們...雙方有沒有公文?雙方有email有來往好,我們未來後續來了解一下但是我們來看事情發生啦相關的後續因應的程序有沒有明確留下聯絡的資訊事後應該要做什麼樣的程序補正這個呢我們都接下來要來關注啦"},{"start":4289.798,"end":4318.978,"text":"但是我們現在再來繼續追問1月30日行政院發布了優化災防警報的系統然後是說什麼呢剛剛我們已經經歷了這個很驚險很緊張因為這個範本對比不起來結果行政院1月30日發文的是什麼呢可以更加彈性必要的時候可以手動輸入訊息也就是現在這個moment幾分鐘之後你可能會收到總統及警報說我愛Hello Kitty因為這是任何一個單位都可以發出"},{"start":4320.959,"end":4327.311,"text":"國會也不用檢查是嗎?照我們剛剛邏輯錄下來是這樣對嗎?政委您可以回答這個是政委的職責因為是行政院的"},{"start":4332.193,"end":4348.828,"text":"我們會做資安檢查因為內容不是我們主責所以內容還是必須要有主責單位來修正這一點我是不是很理解但未來我們希望可以再多一點互動0109的事件曝落就是人工手動修改有高度的風險因為會有錯誤"},{"start":4350.269,"end":4353.431,"text":"但是行政院討論完的結論卻是再擴大彈性這樣合理嗎?我想透過這樣的烏龍到底是在發送芒果乾還是用國家為名再傳遞訊息給2300萬大眾而且時機又這麼的特別剛剛我們又看到了如果是一般人"},{"start":4369.943,"end":4387.039,"text":"通過這樣的訊息來發送這種錯假的訊息會被移送法辦您也同意但是現在呢我們民進黨政府發出來的訊息呢我們目前還不知道真相之間很多細節也都沒有公開而且這件事情發生以後相關的網站上甚至找不到我們本來收到的這一則訊息的資料"},{"start":4388.78,"end":4389.04,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":4408.978,"end":4432.106,"text":"包括突發應變處理程序並且包含突發事件後相關公文的補正程序而且希望能夠溯及記網針對CPS網站上的災防訊息希望能夠有資料下載的專區你們的API檢索竟然只能回溯7天而不是全部應該要可以回溯全部而且應該要演繹未來要上鏈這是我們的歷史以上兩點能不能有機會在一個月內完成"},{"start":4433.274,"end":4453.057,"text":"我們尊重委員的意見我們檢討修正一個月謝謝喔那我想這個這次還是很感動啦我們相關的部會呢真的是非常肯認責那第二個部分我想今天是AI你們是AI內閣我也一直被說是AI阿宅所以我一定要來關心一下這個科技領域關於AI的想法您對半導體AI也都非常了解"},{"start":4454.238,"end":4457.942,"text":"從今年開始行政院推動的晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案10年計劃就要開始預計要預入3000億的經費我再講一次3000億的經費多次詢問沒有人能夠好好的講清楚這10年3000億預算到底怎麼來要怎麼用"},{"start":4476.142,"end":4501.778,"text":"難道只是一個口號嗎?透過晶片與生成式AI的結合大家真的都很期待啦我認為如果有好的計劃花更多的錢都可以考慮但如果沒有計劃這些錢我們就應該好好檢討韓國維利今年度投入了218億台幣預期要讓各式各樣的AI功能在南韓成為日常那台灣呢我想請教一下主委我們的目標是什麼優勢是什麼主委你也是科技政委你覺得我們的願景是怎麼樣?"},{"start":4503.444,"end":4527.16,"text":" AI是一個人類很重要的工具我們當然是希望說透過AI可以協助我們各行各業的發展這是我們重要的方向我想您也同意這樣的論點的話我下一個問題就很合理了主委怎麼看待AI的法治規範現在全球都在討論AI的法治框架還有我們的社會發展的框架吳振中主委"},{"start":4528.169,"end":4544.915,"text":"前主委兩個多月前說行政院今年年底會推出AI基本法草案您上任以後還是朝著這個方向規劃進行嗎?這個速度夠嗎?還是有沒有不同的想法?目前朝著原來的規劃方向在進行有沒有考慮更快一點?"},{"start":4546.001,"end":4562.809,"text":"好這個AI發展真的我看到一顆直球來了我接觸了主委我接觸了真的很感謝如果你有看我過去的質詢你可以理解到我們真的是非常憂心也非常希望台灣的AI要加速我都幫台德講話我都幫台灣LLM講話"},{"start":4566.531,"end":4568.914,"text":"我們認為這些平台這些技術的訓練應用還有跨部會資料的開源是我上任以來持續高度關注的議題我想提醒一下主委我們有許多部會都有跟AI相關的政策您是政委所以我跟您說一下"},{"start":4581.852,"end":4610.483,"text":"行政院有國家AI推動小組台灣有AI行動計畫2.0要走到3.0了行政院所屬機關有使用深層式AI的參考指引速發部有AI產品系統評測參考指引金管會也即將公告金融業運用AI的指引教育部也即將嚴定AI教學指引可能還有更多的單位相關的單位還會陸續推出更多AI相關的指引希望主委同時升為科技政委能夠更全面的瞭解各部會對於AI相關政策的內容"},{"start":4611.323,"end":4625.318,"text":"拜託拜託統整性的來思考資源的分配政策的發展我們能不能軟硬兼施而不要只偏重硬我們可不可以棍子跟蘿蔔都要有而不是只有棍子盡量避免多頭馬車的狀況不要汙名化AI"},{"start":4627.52,"end":4656.525,"text":"不要去這種避鎖我們的資源讓我們的學生在跟AI對話的時候看到的都是對岸的用語這是我們要一起來努力的最後我還是非常期待主委帶領之下臺下也有我的老師老師好那我想我們一起透過產官學研界努力共同塑造臺灣成為全球半導體以及AI科技應用創新的領頭羊部長 主委我們那個好球來一發"},{"start":4657.642,"end":4667.029,"text":"我們同意,那個委員的老師也同意。好,兩根好球,謝謝,謝謝主席,謝謝主委。謝謝,謝謝耿如君委員。好,主委請回。我們接下來請郭育晴委員。謝謝主席,有請主委。好,有請吳主委。"},{"start":4688.689,"end":4711.615,"text":"主委早安我想今天其實我們都聚焦在AI啦那我想人工智慧近年來其實是越來越成熟了那但是其實在使用上或者是在規範上其實還是需要有一些指引啦包含就是它的名詞的定義啦法律的名詞定義啦那隱私的部分啦還有就是使用的一些"},{"start":4712.535,"end":4712.735,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":4727.492,"end":4755.042,"text":"但是目前為止好像還沒有有一個比較具體的一個共識我想這個歐盟在今年的3月其實他們也通過了所謂的人工的智慧法另外在韓國的部分他們也有智慧資訊化的一個基本法在世界各國其實紛紛在就這個部分來開始立法的時候您覺得台灣應該要站在什麼樣的一個立場將來有可能在這個立法的草案的推動的進程大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":4756.638,"end":4782.336,"text":"我們的規劃小組現在當然也在參考歐盟已經公布的這個AI的法案那台灣的過去在制定相關的法案的時候其實非常注重我們經濟的發展但是現在身為一個已經比較進步的一個國家我覺得在保護人權的部分"},{"start":4783.291,"end":4809.952,"text":"也要關注所以目前的討論我們會兩者兼具就是說對於人權對於隱私的保護以及產業的發展我們希望兩者可以相輔相成所以主委的意思是說我們要先有一個指引然後再比較統合一些意見跟共識然後再來做立法那今年年底有可能這個草案會出來嗎?"},{"start":4810.981,"end":4840.981,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4841.061,"end":4841.802,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":4871.141,"end":4877.923,"text":"也希望能夠協助大學還有一些相關的產業的轉型然後AI化但是其實我們比較擔心的一個部分是當大家一窩蜂的把它設為所謂的熱門的相關的科系的時候反而會讓有一些包含人文或者是一些像商學院文學院的這個相關的科系變減少了我舉一個例子來講像是敏時科大他們後來其實當然"},{"start":4900.888,"end":4901.088,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":4923.575,"end":4945.316,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4945.336,"end":4964.031,"text":"我非常同意委員的看法其實我個人也是很關注這個議題我希望說利用台灣科技的優勢可以來協助傳統的甚至11住行、育樂各行各業都能夠善用AI的工具來協助他們轉型而且也可以留住人才"},{"start":4965.495,"end":4987.813,"text":"除了要流出人才其實這些科系還是有必要性的一個存在啦那只是說在這樣子的一個轉型的部分比方說我們剛剛看到一些像電視啦網路行銷啦或者是商務啦觀光英語啦或者是餐飲啦像類似這樣子或者是一般的所謂的文學院或商學院它怎麼樣跟AI這個部分來做結合或者是怎麼樣來做"},{"start":4989.554,"end":4989.754,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":5010.956,"end":5011.216,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":5036.357,"end":5059.933,"text":"其實我們比較擔心的是因為這個一窩蜂的AI啦反而會讓原本他們比方說我剛剛講的那些人文科系的一些學校因為招不到學生反而會停招這個也是將來有可能會碰到的面臨的一個問題這是真的就是活生生的會出現在這個教育界當中那這個部分可能我們也是要要再來再來做更進一步的一個研究"},{"start":5061.674,"end":5080.003,"text":"第三個問題其實我想要問到的是當然這個其實我們必須說也非常的肯定啦這個國科會對於所謂的這個女性朋友的一個福利啦那其實世界上有許多國家正在面臨所謂的這個性別比較比例不均的一個狀況啦"},{"start":5082.324,"end":5094.434,"text":"國科會2023年公布了111年度性別分析的報告投入所謂的科技產業的男女比例上其實還是3比1"},{"start":5096.115,"end":5096.536,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":5111.451,"end":5123.201,"text":"就是讓女性能夠進入到高科技產業的一個職場那當然也要幫助她們比方說在育兒的一個部分那我們知道國科會其實在2021年的時候在職場互助教保服務中心這個部分其實也服務了蠻多就是在職的女性那她們的小朋友這兩歲到這個學齡前有這樣子的一個等於是招收在"},{"start":5139.595,"end":5139.795,"text":"請相關人員來回答這個問題是"},{"start":5155.358,"end":5174.916,"text":"委員跟您報告一下就是我們國科會教保中心目前是收50個那是依照教育部國教署他訂了一些職域那按照我們的那個規定所以我們現在是50個是因為師生比的關係是訂50個因為最多其實本來應該是可以到60個對不對"},{"start":5177.398,"end":5177.558,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":5195.023,"end":5214.441,"text":"有在繼續調教但是我相信應該需求會更多啦因為我們知道其實在國科會不管是資策會啦公研院啦或者是國研院等等相關的這樣子的一個部門啦我是說應該需求的人其實應該會比較多那你們沒有想要再增設這樣子的一個"},{"start":5215.982,"end":5216.162,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":5238.838,"end":5254.717,"text":"獲得的資料是從40個變成48個因為這個數字也是教育部國教所核定給我們的那有沒有可能再往更多的部分來做努力就不管在空間或其他的部分這個部分我們會努力再跟"},{"start":5255.518,"end":5255.718,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":5272.056,"end":5288.012,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5288.112,"end":5315.384,"text":"主委這邊我認同委員的看法再來演你我們會跟教育部來協調看有沒有機會我們來增加一些名額然後增加照顧的人員然後把那個師生筆的部分能夠再符合條件然後讓更多的女性朋友能夠安心的投入我們必須符合法規但是我看看有沒有這個機會有空間可以做好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝郭育晴委員主委請回我們接下來請萬美玲委員"},{"start":5324.867,"end":5325.148,"text":"吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":5334.409,"end":5362.695,"text":"委員長好主委好主委我想這個在這個賴總統的就職演說當中我們看到他特別提到要發展AI產業推動台灣成為AI之島那您先前在受訪當中本期有注意到您也說願意接任國科會主委這個位置是因為認同了賴總統的一個政見那您也說到人工智慧是未來台灣產業轉型社會跟教育發展的一個重要關鍵那可見您的心中是不是對於台灣AI發展已經有個明確的想法了"},{"start":5365.005,"end":5391.823,"text":"我們的看法就是AI的技術本身的基礎研究會持續進行我們一直在資助同時AI的應用不能夠只去應用到科技的領域還要應用到其他各行各業當然所以主委我想要打造成為AI之島主委您應該要非常清楚要掌握目前台灣產業AI化的狀況現況您是必須要清楚的所以就您目前所知台灣目前產業AI化的程度是怎麼樣"},{"start":5394.597,"end":5404.234,"text":"還有相當的距離跟什麼還有相當的距離跟在高科技上面的應用還是跟賴總統口中的AI指導還有相當的距離"},{"start":5406.058,"end":5425.267,"text":"是,這是我們努力的方式。也是嘛。好,那我想這個根據財團法人人工智慧科技基金會他所公布的一份資料我們看到2023台灣產業AI化大調查顯示在個人或者部門內使用生成式AI工具約有38.2%但是導入公司營運流程的只有16%"},{"start":5426.408,"end":5447.875,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5448.295,"end":5473.486,"text":"僅僅就在半導體先進製程上這個利基上面我們就說我們要來做AI指導了好像有點不切實際了所以呢陳柔宁今天的這個答詢除了硬體軟體的開發之外我們要導入企業或者是民眾生活上面的應用其實非常的重要那我相信您對於這個智慧教育啦智慧家電醫療或交通等等那應該都有一個藍圖在心中才有可能去成為這個AI指導這是您心中的想法嗎"},{"start":5475.131,"end":5478.252,"text":"您剛才說距離我們整個台灣產業要AI化的這個程度以及距離賴總統所謂的AI指導還有一個這個好像聽起來蠻遠的距離在那國科會您上任的你有沒有心理去打算要用多少的時間來規劃打造這個AI指導"},{"start":5499.412,"end":5517.323,"text":"AI其實在不同的產業的應用它有不同的難度那我們會循序漸進那您的循序漸進如果以短中長程來說的話不要問你太遠短程你的目標是什麼短程在未來4年內希望能夠改善特定的一些傳統產業"},{"start":5518.584,"end":5537.614,"text":"哪一些特定的傳統產業包含在IC設計領域跟我們的製造業的結合再來就是說在其他的服務業的部分我們特別重視的是國民健康所以在健康照護的領域我們也會先去推動"},{"start":5538.394,"end":5545.397,"text":"在上個月我們看到風傳媒在專訪我們臺大施工系的一個副教授那也指出來台灣的AI現在處於落後的階段這學者專家講的而且面臨了四個挑戰這四個挑戰我不曉得主委您知不知道那我在這裡跟您說一下第一個監管法規的一個制定這您一定知道第二個"},{"start":5560.723,"end":5577.857,"text":"我們缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫這過去我想我們在委員會提過很多次再來呢我們只重硬體輕軟體的產業界的一個狀況這您一定也有掌握那麼第四個也就是說AI時代教育我們到底要怎麼因應那這四個問題你有去思考過嗎有思考過嗯 覺得哪一個問題最嚴重都嚴重都嚴重可解決嗎"},{"start":5585.336,"end":5600.358,"text":"可以解決誰可以來解決我們全部的人都要一起努力都要一起努力是不是有把握嗎有把握很好第一天來備訓這麼有信心為你的信心我們真的覺得很振奮但是我想主委AI快速的發展"},{"start":5600.538,"end":5622.824,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5622.824,"end":5639.855,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5640.135,"end":5665.672,"text":"但是它的內容其實對AI是採用高度嚴格的監管然後依照風險的劃分也有高額的罰款甚至禁用的規定都在裡面看起來就是整部是比較嚴厲的之前吳政中主委有說他說他自己講說台灣他說不會去走歐盟的路他會朝向日本、美國、英國的方向去走早上我也聽到您在說您會延續吳政中部長的做法是這樣嗎?"},{"start":5670.595,"end":5673.797,"text":"我們會兩者兼顧,就是說 哪兩者兼顧?"},{"start":5673.797,"end":5686.745,"text":"監管跟發展,兩個都要兼顧。我們要照顧到,我們要照顧到人權。 很厲害,這樣聽起來就是說又可以有這個歐盟很嚴格的監管,又可以有日本美國現在這個的方向去做,那如何做到兩者兼顧?"},{"start":5687.928,"end":5702.757,"text":"我舉個簡單的例子啦因為AI是工具人類的工具就好像你去買一把菜刀這個菜刀就是做菜的用途你要把它控制在那個範圍不能拿它來做壞事啊所以一定是兩者要兼顧啊"},{"start":5703.7,"end":5709.462,"text":"各位,我想兩者兼顧這一句話說得非常好但絕對沒有你想得這麼簡單如果有這麼簡單其實就不會有歐盟採取某一項那可能日本、美國、英國又採取某一項那如何做到兩者兼顧其實我想我們拭目以待如果能夠兩者兼顧當然是最好啦不過我想國科會其實在去年9月就提出了這個AI基本法的草案"},{"start":5726.408,"end":5744.121,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5744.673,"end":5745.915,"text":"我們希望10月能夠具體看到好不好"},{"start":5761.976,"end":5790.666,"text":"最後我想本席在這邊提醒一下我想我們在AI的發展上面其實已經落後了所以AI專法的草案在研擬的時候除了您心中有已經思考到的面向之外對於現在在開發訓練本土AI模型我想對於AI要去收集還有學習這大量的資料尤其是凡文中文的資料的缺乏還有著作權相關的問題我希望我們在考慮保護人權產業發展之餘以上本席所提醒的希望主委也要能夠注意"},{"start":5791.406,"end":5806.596,"text":"另外再來關於我們也是一樣賴總統在就職演說當中也有提到要發展通訊低軌衛星然後帶領台灣要進軍全球的太空產業事實上過去幾年國科會編列了69.4億推動B5G低軌通訊衛星的計畫要自行研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星而當中的通訊籌載的製作研發是委由工研院進行兩顆製作"},{"start":5821.326,"end":5841.941,"text":"您知道嗎?我瞭解你瞭解很好那總經費8億多那當初去選擇我們國內自行研發而沒有向國外購買其實我們非常支持也肯定因為一方面我們可以增加這個關鍵技術的自主能力二方面我們可以帶動我們自己盆土衛星相關產業鏈的發展這一點主委認同嗎?認同認同很好"},{"start":5844.543,"end":5848.987,"text":"我這個據本期了解原本這兩顆都是要由工研院來研發的通訊籌載其中一顆我們變成要向國外來做採購那上個月我還質詢我們這個林明聰前副主委的時候他回答說原本這兩顆"},{"start":5860.578,"end":5875.178,"text":"就是我們都是給工研院做然後去年年底要完成的工程體變成今年才能完成喔那原因是因為你聽喔原因是因為工研院積怨不足遇到技術瓶頸導致時程延誤所以改弦易撤然後來一顆向國外購買是這樣嗎"},{"start":5878.524,"end":5900.818,"text":"這個細節我還不知道我可以請太空中心主委來我跟你講完這正是上個月在這裡我們這個林明聰副主委回答的但是經過本席詳細去了解以後發現公研院根本就沒有遇到瓶頸也不是經驗不足做不出來而是他已經做好了這個工程體然後只是因為他要送到外國實驗室去測試跟驗證然後因為疫情的關係這外國的實驗室因為關閉後來疫情過了以後這個實驗室打開"},{"start":5907.182,"end":5932.108,"text":"但時間性打開以後案量太大所以大家在排隊因為這個排隊受測所以才延誤了所以根本不是國科會之前副主委在這裡所說的這樣那我想請教一下事實到底是什麼我們到底為什麼工研院做得好好的那我們講出一個根本不是事實的理由去誣陷工研院然後呢我們就把其中一顆向國外去購買原因是什麼"},{"start":5933.012,"end":5949.893,"text":"可不可以允許臺灣中心主任來回答?委員好,我是臺灣中心主任吳宗鑫我想這個我們原來的計畫是B5G是兩顆然後確定是第一顆是由委有公園發展這個通訊所在"},{"start":5951.255,"end":5975.834,"text":"然後照我們原來規劃是在2025第一顆要發射那個我只想請教一下啦你後來一顆改向國外來購買是因為工研院的這個經驗不足技術遇到瓶頸導致是很延誤是這樣嗎?他們現在的根據跟我們那個對不起喔我想您這邊說的話要負責任喔之前那個副主委已經不在了他已經不在這個位置上了一定不在這個位置上了所以您今天所說法我覺得要符合事實喔好不好"},{"start":5978.556,"end":5984.919,"text":"因為他們現在只能就原來是2025、26然後第一顆我們是答應給他們做第二顆那時候沒有決定然後他們現在2025要發射那一顆現在已經確定延遲到2028根據他們跟我們的報告就是公務預算所以已經延遲會3年然後在因為我們除了這個我們發展上面衛星籌載的技術以外我們同時上去要提供國內的因為國內有非常大的IT網通產業在做地面的設備"},{"start":6007.21,"end":6023.836,"text":"要做end-to-end的測試所以我們為了不要讓這個整個騎乘延宕太久所以我們第二個是我們是希望可以引進好主委我想喔其實並沒有回答本席剛才所提出來的一個疑慮喔因為呢上一次林明聰副主委在這邊提的喔"},{"start":6024.716,"end":6029.358,"text":"很清楚是因為工研院的經驗不足嘛然後呢他延宕但是呢得到的訊息其實不是這樣而是他們已經完成了工程體但是因為在授冊這個驗證的過程當中那這個在國外的實驗室去延誤了所以我想這一點"},{"start":6042.825,"end":6061.038,"text":"一周之內必須給我一個真相如果這個真相不是像今天所回答的那我想今天國科會必須要負責任那我們當然希望說我們所有的計畫都能夠按照期程來做中間有了一些變化不是不能夠調整但是事實真相是什麼我們是覺得應該要說清楚講明白這個部分主委你認同嗎好我們一周之內給委員書面報告"},{"start":6069.304,"end":6071.025,"text":"最後一分鐘非常重要我想我們在海外成立的第一個基地海外基地在捷克在布拉格這個部分"},{"start":6084.439,"end":6084.579,"text":" ﹝無言﹞"},{"start":6114.259,"end":6114.279,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":6131.141,"end":6157.375,"text":"委員可以允許我請同仁科技...我想這樣因為今天我時間也到了雖然這個召委人很好沒有心理我時間但是我想這個部分是不是會後一樣一週內我請主委要來做說明因為您剛上任我就不太為難您但是呢我們第一個海外科技基地非常的重要我們這個過程要怎麼走那我們預計達到的目標要怎麼做那我希望主委了解以後到我辦公室來詳細說明好不好好謝謝"},{"start":6163.054,"end":6168.018,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝萬美玲委員。主委請回。我們接下來請林倩琦委員。好,有請吳主委。"},{"start":6188.241,"end":6202.428,"text":"主委好,我們知道你才上任4天可是非常有效度的昨天我們就見了面那在見面的時候我們也聊了一下那當然你有一些行程所以同任也是很有效度的來安排這整個行程"},{"start":6203.248,"end":6218.697,"text":"那因為昨天本席在這個昨天的質詢就現場碰到一些小狀況所以我今天的質詢不是針對您個人但是提醒您過去在國科會裡面有一些事情"},{"start":6220.538,"end":6220.838,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":6241.782,"end":6258.887,"text":"獲定近億元預算只為幾個月的臨時計劃。此部分可不可以請主委再做個瞭解因為在前三處的科技辦公室要求國研院提了一個113年台灣的可信任生存式AI語言"},{"start":6259.867,"end":6265.669,"text":"大語言模型精進與素養能力的推動計劃短期計劃早就安排審議會議為什麽要趕在上班日前將預算全部用完有什麽理由要這麽趕嗎?經議員補助不能留待您上任再決定嗎?所以是不是"},{"start":6281.676,"end":6286.718,"text":"我相信許多部會首長讓我們有耳目一新的感覺但是我想每一些單位可能都有一些東西需要你們做一個整理"},{"start":6309.486,"end":6336.343,"text":"今天一整天大家都在談AI就像您昨天講的我們國家的政策如果是對人民有益我們通通都支持但是今天也有很多人討論我們不能以AI為名去影響到跟跨越到很多的不應該的界限所以我想了解這個事情的來龍去脈這個流程到底出了什麼問題所以我想這個部分是不是待會大家再一起回答如果有時間的話"},{"start":6337.404,"end":6363.511,"text":"所以我這邊要求如果這個案子本身有一些問題在您的檢視下那應該要送到法務部檢查局還有調查局跟那個緣證署要一起來檢視這件事情我會了解一下是的那不知道是圖利的程度還是賭值好那第二個部分呢國研院這個科技中心感覺好像"},{"start":6364.551,"end":6365.092,"text":"公務委員會主管預算"},{"start":6387.231,"end":6388.211,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":6410.339,"end":6434.394,"text":"推動中芯專案計劃我們一聽到什麼中芯專案計劃這都很容易讓人家聯想到一些某一些平台那這個平台裡面有太多的可能性所以這個部分這個計劃也請主委這邊瞭解那麼113年台灣可信任生成式的AI大員模型精進與素養能力這是我剛才講的都是很大的案子那另外"},{"start":6435.134,"end":6454.911,"text":"在民生公共物聯網的數據應用及產業開展計畫和邁向智慧國家決策支援暨科技計畫推動諮詢這些感覺很像軟性的東西這兩個計畫裡面分包的情形有沒有如所規定的"},{"start":6456.243,"end":6481.042,"text":"一樣也是請主委檢視然後給我一個專案報告或者是主委到我辦公室來好好的我們再溝通一下當然昨天我們的共通性我相信這一次的內閣大概把所有的相關的委員的資料都讀得很好所以也都投其所好的來做相關的一個溝通"},{"start":6482.583,"end":6496.28,"text":"我想主委這邊也知道一些問題不是說只有在這個你的單位組織裡面所以我相信主委應該是有這個能力而且還有這樣子的一個公平性能夠去處理本席這邊所提出來的疑慮"},{"start":6500.144,"end":6514.538,"text":"學術倫理這幾年大家都在談有別的學術倫理在公部門的部分常常是公家的一些研究的成果會成為個人的發表"},{"start":6516.656,"end":6536.673,"text":"這個部分我想可以再更審慎地做一個檢討基本上也給學界樹立一個比較好的風範當然我們知道這個國研院也擔任了很多國科會的一個相關的連結支撐跟計畫的一些補助執行所以這個部分你們怎麼做"},{"start":6538.093,"end":6552.738,"text":"獲得更好的分析．或是讓事情有效度但是也是要注意裡面這個整合的平台當中有沒有超乎你們的規範的好那第三大家常會講的就是出國旅費的一個編列那這邊有一個產業創新人才海外培訓計畫那我還是請主委去檢視有沒有沒有編列在計畫裡面的人但是一起跟著出去那"},{"start":6565.72,"end":6586.093,"text":"你們可以同問同答那補助跟執行單位有沒有把關因為其他的部會可能會出現一些可能不是內容性上的問題但是在發包出去的過程當中或者是執行的過程當中出現了一些不太嚴謹的行政作業"},{"start":6586.693,"end":6613.232,"text":"及行政執行,請主委這會比較細當然您管的是很多的大政策跟策略可是很多的細節裡面藏了魔鬼但是這中間的細節會讓整個計畫執行變得掉所以我們都期待您的大政策大方向能夠在一些細節上的處理更為精細所以能夠符合整個大方向的"},{"start":6613.932,"end":6640.569,"text":"推動所以這件事情本期也希望能夠了解整個的來龍去脈那知道國科會在這個部分的把關如何好那有一個部分就是我們研究單位比較相對比較專業但是我們也不希望有這個左手補助然後右手領錢的狀況所以呢您是不是也檢視一下110年的這個科技創新政策研議與資源促進計畫"},{"start":6643.511,"end":6652.755,"text":"到112年的邁向智慧國家決策支援及科技計劃推動諮詢請您親自查詢掛名的人員裡面有沒有在國科會工作但是在其他單位領津貼的狀況以上有幾點"},{"start":6669.178,"end":6672.143,"text":"主委這邊檢視了那覺得有這個必要"},{"start":6674.554,"end":6703.059,"text":"檢察官、調查局、廉政署我希望來共同了解到底這是在什麼樣一個層次彈弧、圖利、賭值這個部分今天絕對不是針對主委但是您剛接了有一些讓外界感覺打假球的狀況我一直對研究的單位抱有很大的一個寄望我期待研究單位可以做我們的一個典範"},{"start":6704.643,"end":6724.395,"text":"但是這些細節在行政的處理上有的時候可能就會導引整個的計畫跟成果或者是推動的方向會失去了它的整體的動能是同意委員委員剛剛提到幾個包含大型計畫的核電還有我們的"},{"start":6728.558,"end":6742.22,"text":"國研院科證中心在處理外包案還有學術倫理等等這幾個議題我們會再整理我了解一下然後再整理然後專門到委員辦公室跟您報告"},{"start":6744.336,"end":6767.617,"text":"謝謝主委在我的辦公室其實我們還可以繼續就昨天講的議題做進一步的討論以本席跟您的交流的結果我相信有很多的細節我們都知道它是導致最後成果很重要的環節所以我們希望您能夠好好的徹查這些事情"},{"start":6769.938,"end":6789.269,"text":"謝謝您剛到昨天也感謝這個會議院同仁讓我們有機會做一個交流那未來我們會就交流部分跟專業的一個討論那我們也希望透過您讓國科會的招牌再重新打亮好謝謝謝謝好那您也知道是原住民所以最後還是對您講一句謝謝"},{"start":6796.069,"end":6802.091,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝林倩琦委員。來,主委請回。接下來請陳秀巴委員。謝謝主席。有請吳誠文主委。有請吳主委。委員好。"},{"start":6819.197,"end":6844.485,"text":"歡迎吳主委上任也期待吳主委帶領我們國家的科技發展能夠持續的領先在世界的前段班昨天呢國科會這邊有舉辦媒體見面會那主委有提到說一些未來的展望包括推動產業數位轉型淨零排放AI研發等等的這些應用那都是現在台灣科技發展的重中之重"},{"start":6845.245,"end":6847.726,"text":"今年科技預算編列1570億,明年國科會預計在科技預算要擴大編列到1800億但是國科會在科技佈局投入最多的部分是金狀台灣接近有60億第二個是太空科技的部分也有47億多"},{"start":6864.71,"end":6890.599,"text":"但是近年科技與AI的發展這個合起來只有十億億多請問主委重點布局的預算投入我們在接下來會不會調整例如主委您昨天提到的就是產業的數位轉型近年排放或是AI這個部分您都非常的關心還有就是像您關心的運動科技預算的部分會不會調整這個不到1%的預算"},{"start":6895.872,"end":6923.251,"text":"報告委員近年科技其實現在我們有部分其實相當的這個能量是在中央研究院是在有關這個科技的研究的部分那產業的發展的部分其實不一定是在科技預算在我們的那個經濟部其實有相當的能量那我們是通力合作希望能夠朝這個目標前進但是如果民間的"},{"start":6923.991,"end":6928.236,"text":"所以說主管的意思是說對於這個預算的這個占比的調整還是會做一些相關的因應將來可以做一些調整"},{"start":6940.269,"end":6957.192,"text":"這邊其實要提醒國科會我們2050年進行排放在即目前的技術都還在基礎研究的階段還沒有辦法跟產業來互相運用所以說再加上說AI的發展是科技的趨勢但是畢竟我們的預算還是有限的"},{"start":6957.532,"end":6976.682,"text":"所以在整個的預算的占比的調整也希望國科會這邊要妥善的來做一個分布那這邊請教主委賴清德總統在5月20的時候宣示台灣將進入太空以及發展低軌衛星那國科會這邊也說會加速推動太空科技"},{"start":6977.122,"end":6987.809,"text":"包括低軌通訊衛星、入軌火箭、太空產業鏈以及人才的培育。國會從2019年開始推動為期10年的國家太空科技發展長程計劃總經費有250億元預計要發展共10枚的衛星到現在是執行的到第6年了這邊要請教主委"},{"start":6998.797,"end":7010.998,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7011.363,"end":7034.756,"text":"委員可以允許我們太空中心主任來回答報告委員我們大概衛星有三個大面向一個是光學的遙測一個是合成孔徑雷達一個是低軌道通訊衛星然後第一個大概光學就浮會8號大概明年明年大概就會第一顆上去的總共會有8顆是完全還是上去打上去打上去"},{"start":7035.816,"end":7058.615,"text":"發射到軌道明年就會發射是明年就可以發射對然後是每一年至少會一顆所以我們預定到2031把8顆全部打上去然後在2728的時候是合成孔徑雷達合成孔徑雷達就是它可以穿透雲層半夜可以拍的那種衛星然後低軌道通訊衛星還是現在逐步在建置當中以上那我們的發射場址的選址的進度呢報告委員那個發射場址是"},{"start":7064.339,"end":7091.164,"text":"二階二省的三階三省的方式現在進入第二個階段所以我們現在跟各個地方政府像花蓮像台東像屏東這個縣政府昨天才到台東縣政府跟他們副縣長來說明然後我們的相關長職我們自己預計的時程呢預計在三階段是到年底的時候今年年底今年年底那選址如果確認了之後呢我們建制的作業大概要多久"},{"start":7091.854,"end":7115.111,"text":"我們建置的作業那就是工電計劃要預算我們大概是兩到三年的時間要建置這個場域將它設置完成因為我們今年已經是計劃執行的第六年了所以在後續我們的時間其實也非常的緊迫在這個部分也希望說你們加快你們的腳步該去進行的該去做溝通的還是我們該去推動的這個部分也希望說你們這邊可以盡快的來完成這個進度"},{"start":7118.453,"end":7136.772,"text":"那再請教喔在火箭的研發方面呢去年逢甲大學有成功發射了單節混合式的小型的科研火箭那請問今年我們有沒有火箭試射的計畫喔逢甲大學理論上今年要發射今年對我想逢甲大學淡江大學他們大概今年都會"},{"start":7137.913,"end":7161.05,"text":"都會發生都有這樣的計畫那請問關於入軌火箭的計畫目前執行的進度是什麼樣因為是去年才啟動現在很多持續在進行進行一些引擎測試還有相關的東西的建置大概我們預定是2028開始會做次軌道的飛試希望在2030年可以大概一支到兩支的入軌火箭的展示以上"},{"start":7162.503,"end":7187.071,"text":"好謝謝你的回答其實國科會在太空科技投入預算是在重點布局的第二高民眾也都非常關心我們國家在太空科技的技術的發展所以這邊本席希望說國科會跟太空中心要落實社會溝通我們定期的公布相關計劃的進度半年或是三個月我們就是定期的來公布讓民眾很關心的民眾可以了解說相關的資訊這個部分請國科會這邊來努力好謝謝委員"},{"start":7190.512,"end":7200.415,"text":"接下來要請教主委關於AI的應用因應我們世界AI技術的趨勢國科會這邊也啟動TIDE計劃要堅持可以應用在繁體中文適合台灣使用的生成式AI那今日國科會也公布了就是TIDE經過一年的訓練是可以用台語跟英語來對話甚至還可以快速生成立委諮詢稿"},{"start":7216.62,"end":7222.844,"text":"本席就按電腦規格試用了兩個版本的TED跟CHATGTP來做比較有發現一些問題首先我們看頭影片這個是像CHATGTP的提問2024年5月20日之後台灣總統是誰他的回答是賴清德總統大概有回答出去年選舉的狀況還有賴總統的立場"},{"start":7238.672,"end":7248.083,"text":"只是呢在語句上不是很通順因為在確GDP它的語言模型在我們使用的時候是需要轉譯的所以說它轉譯出來的這個文句不通順的話我們是沒有辦法直接使用可能還在調整過那這也是我們國科會為什麼要發展Tide的原因我們要建置自己使用的這個AI那接下來就是"},{"start":7257.714,"end":7271.748,"text":"我這邊向泰德提問的版本第一個部分我們先找科普頻道上面推薦的一個版本來使用同樣的問題同樣的問法泰德回答的是說目前所掌握到的資訊是2023年9月所以只能告訴本席蔡英文的總統任期到2024年5月那2023年9月以後發生的事情呢要自行去找最新的資料"},{"start":7280.757,"end":7284.2,"text":"也就是說這個版本的態度在沒有辦法回答2023年9月以後的事情那第二個版本是本席向國科會這邊詢問說可以生成立委執行稿的這個版本但是主委你也看到這個版本的回覆比剛剛的有更大的問題"},{"start":7297.89,"end":7323.15,"text":"因為他回答說2024年5月20日以後的台灣總統是現任總統蔡英文這是非常大的錯誤喔那本席接著問他說那最新一次你們更新資料庫的時間呢他沒有辦法回答說具體的時間但是他有說啦他有回答涵蓋截至2021年9月為止的廣泛主題就是說在這之後的事情他是沒有辦法回答的也沒辦法問如果你覺得泰德這樣的表現你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":7330.577,"end":7338.035,"text":"報告委員因為這個態度是人工智慧人工智慧絕對不可能有委員的智慧所以他只是一個工具"},{"start":7340.322,"end":7355.999,"text":"其實這樣子的一個這個能工智慧說是這個AI的這個應用是你給他越多資料你越使用他他會越正確所以表示說你們資料沒有更新從2023年9月到現在超過半年了你們沒有資訊更新進去他當然就沒有辦法給正確的答案是我們會檢討我們會改善"},{"start":7359.983,"end":7362.826,"text":"提供的都沒有所以這個資料庫你們有沒有制定一個定期的更新的目標目標"},{"start":7380.862,"end":7399.867,"text":"報告委員我們這個TED其實它不是一個通用型的對話引擎我們那時候在公布的時候我們是這個TED發展是五大目標寫文章寫信摘要英翻中跟中翻英它最主要用途目前公布的是五大用途這樣子那未來我們怎麼樣來會參考委員的意見怎麼樣來精進這樣子"},{"start":7401.067,"end":7421.067,"text":" ﹏︎"},{"start":7421.207,"end":7433.832,"text":"我們就要把它做到好做到完備而且陸陸續續該去更新的因為AI的發展是未來的趨勢所以說既然我們已經有建制的民眾也都知道了也會像我一樣去試試看了你們給他這樣的訊息這樣的使用的體驗我覺得民眾會非常的失望我覺得你們剛剛那樣子解釋我其實我不能接受報告委員我也有點失望我們一定要改善"},{"start":7443.815,"end":7467.303,"text":"好那主委您承諾了這個部分的你們盡快的來做就是相關資料的更新我們要越多的資料更新進去給他越多越龐大的訊息他才能提供正確的資訊給這個使用者那因為我時間也到了其實後面還蠻多要問的那我在你們有時間的話我請你盡快排到我辦公室我們來討論後續的這些謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":7473.321,"end":7483.945,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員主委請回那我們等一下在吳佩奕委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘那我們現在請張雅玲委員有請主委但宣科完沒關係有請主委請主委"},{"start":7503.456,"end":7525.746,"text":"主委,還要再喝一口嗎?沒關係沒關係,真的可以有點時間,還需要嗎?好好好,那我們就繼續,就是說首先非常恭喜這個主委就任,您的經歷非常的豐富,也備受肯定在清大跟成大服務的期間,大家都是戰略有價。當然所以我們對你的期待也是非常非常深,希望可以為我國的科學跟學術發展帶來一個嶄新的氣象。"},{"start":7527.467,"end":7550.912,"text":"首先我想要請教主委的是說未來是AI的世代新的內閣也不停的提到說像是左院長也有說主行中內閣賴總統就職演說你有提到現在的台灣掌握半導體先進製程技術站在AI革命的中心是全球民主供應鏈的關鍵也影響世界的經濟發展以及人類的幸福"},{"start":7553.233,"end":7573.541,"text":"昨天主委在受訪的時候也有提到說AI導入全產業除了學界開發技術之外關鍵在於應用落地那陳秉宇副主委就是AI的專家那因為其實像我自己從2022年CheckGPT剛上線的時候我就開始使用我自己是非常的樂中的在使用這個CheckGPT"},{"start":7574.815,"end":7590.261,"text":"那包括像最近的這個Copilot啦或是我之前也常常用這個Gamma去做的簡報那但是呢我就丟了這個問題為了checkGPT就是說欸AI可以做什麼那它會帶來危害又是什麼"},{"start":7591.929,"end":7618.555,"text":"那AI告訴：這ChairGP告訴我說他可以做很多事情他可以做自然的語言學習還有學習機器的學習和深度學習數據的分析和運測等等非常非常多我想大家對他現在應用已經非常熟悉了但是他也告訴我他可以帶來的危害可能是失業職業的轉變隱私問題甚至安全威脅二一使用AI技術可能導致的問題包含了駭客攻擊假新聞虛假信息和網路攻擊"},{"start":7619.955,"end":7642.636,"text":"所以就是說AI可能會帶來好處也有壞處所以AI要發展但也需要控管像例如剛剛我問了這些AI可以做什麼它就可以有得到我們有很多不同的一些好處的回答那例如我們現在也知道說這個其實已經應用在許多的教學場域包含剛剛大家也都有提到這個台語學習的機器人"},{"start":7643.857,"end":7665.211,"text":"但是如果錯誤的使用AI有可能會有負面的問題有譬如說可能會造成詐騙更難的防範或是這個包括它直接像偽造影像啊偽造聲音等等的所以我想請教主委就是說你對於AI可能帶來的影響你的看法是什麼那我們是樂觀呢那還是持平還是我們需要擔憂什麼"},{"start":7667.966,"end":7687.359,"text":"我們其實同意委員的看法就是他是一個非常重要非常有用的工具但是這個工具可以做好的事情也可以做壞的事情所以一定要有所規範所以我們現在在制定AIG本法的時候我們會兩者兼顧也就是說在保障人權維護我們的安全的狀態之下"},{"start":7692.022,"end":7692.322,"text":"解凍案8案。"},{"start":7722.342,"end":7739.092,"text":"我國先是參考了因每日的做法先有指引才去立法那目前也都已經有做這個今年年主委副主委昨天也有說基本法會在今年底就會出爐了那所以我想確認一下這個時程上面是還是在今年底呢還是你們預計規劃我們再把這時程往前提"},{"start":7742.809,"end":7767.851,"text":"翻台也有幾位委員也關心這個事情那我們會努力的來提前希望在10月底可以送到行政院10月底齁那這邊我想要插一個題目就是我剛好聽到秀寶委員在網講那個台德GPT這件事情那我也想要再請教一下主委就是說你認為台德的中文版跟切爾GPT因為現在大家都在做中文版喔我們台德的競爭優勢到底在哪裡"},{"start":7771.665,"end":7795.051,"text":"這個好問題當然我們訓練的這個資料很重要但是即使我們建了這個平台它本身是一個平台我們當然鼓勵各行各業來應用它但是應用的時候其實在應用的範圍裡面的資料也很重要需要是一個把它客製化就像人在學習一樣人可以學習不同的專長你要讓他全能很快"},{"start":7795.111,"end":7819.936,"text":"我了解我了解但是我只是很好奇也就是說我們做的台德GPT這個台德的版本跟CHAT GPT跟這麼多的到底競爭力在哪裡我覺得這是非常重要因為我們如果還要持續投資這件事情上我們的獨特性跟差異性這就非常重要像我們在半導體的製程上也許醫學或是等等的領域可能還是我們應該要發展的重點那這個部分我想我們可以會後再繼續的跟邀請主委來繼續討論"},{"start":7820.896,"end":7820.916,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":7839.423,"end":7840.003,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":7870.284,"end":7872.385,"text":"議員可不可以允許我請國防中心主任 可以"},{"start":7899.827,"end":7925.203,"text":"報告委員今年16這只是第一期先期的建制明年會投入另外40億會建一個大概120配搭符號所以今年是完成16還是在今年底的時候完成今年年底的時候年底16然後明年是今年會有一個對會大概120左右100到120左右100到120對那總共5年的期程希望能建到200到300配搭符號之間"},{"start":7925.851,"end":7946.708,"text":"但是我想要因為這個的部分因為其實日本跟韓國都已經達到非常非常高的一個算力了那我們現在這樣子的速度是不是有點太慢了我們是不是要再來檢討一下因為這真的是攸關到像賴總統一直非常強調這件事情引導了整個國家的發展所以這件事情我希望主委"},{"start":7947.389,"end":7975.574,"text":"一定要來看看我們是不是可以怎麼樣再加強部署如果有經費不足的地方盡量的去爭取這個預算一定要去持續的支持超級電腦的開發謝謝謝謝委員好那在下一題就是說我想要請教一下有關於一個延續性的政策問題就是太空中心那因為太空計畫也是在這一次賴總統的在就職演說也有講到我們這個是我們非常重中之重的一個重點"},{"start":7977.256,"end":7997.011,"text":"那太空中心在2005年成立的時候呢當時是設立這個國家實驗研究院在2022年的時候三讀通過這個國家太空中心設置條例所以現在已經變成一個行政法人那依照我們現在中心的規劃呢2023年是要招募300人擴充人力到600人的規模"},{"start":7999.465,"end":8027.371,"text":"預估希望可以在2025年達到600人但是我想問因為現在行政院其實已經核定了第三期國家太空科技的發展長程計畫主要投入了經費有251億元要發展高解析度光學遙測衛星超高解析度光學衛星以及合成孔徑雷達衛星組成完整的衛星星系來守護台灣保障國人的生命安全"},{"start":8028.451,"end":8056.366,"text":"然後在去年的時候蔡總統參加國際太空年會的時候又再加碼了這400億那我想問國主委就是說預算增加了任務增加了牽扯到第三期的太空計畫修正但是目前我想了解的是目前的修正計畫到了哪邊然後呢任務增加這些人是不是也需要增加呢那這部分規劃又是什麼是那我請太空中心主任"},{"start":8058.247,"end":8084.23,"text":"謝謝委員,跟委員報告一下這個第三期的太空的修正期我們現在正在緊密的討論當中我們希望是今年可以投到今年大概是什麼時候呢?因為這個好像也蠻長一段時間的去年10月到現在都已經加碼要那現在來講的話就是在裡面內容細節的一些嚴明那大概是今年年底的時候呢我們希望能夠提出來"},{"start":8084.83,"end":8109.3,"text":"今年年底提出來是嗎那我們目前人數上面招募的工作人力我們真的招募是預定到2028的時候有670個根據我們原來這樣的擴展的計畫今年是應該107明年大概是我印象是五十幾個不是八十個我們是逐步這樣增加所以我們在增加人數的計畫是根據我們想要做的擴展計畫"},{"start":8110.26,"end":8124.654,"text":"對可是因為我但是主任報告師想請教一下喔報告師再給我一點時間齁讓我問完這一題就是說因為我們其實原本的計畫齁但是我們加碼超過400億了欸那我們的人數還是在跟之前的600人的規模是不是那這些錢"},{"start":8126.675,"end":8147.426,"text":"計劃的人力在哪裡?其實原來是有一個太空三期250億但是在2021開始就有一個比較搭檔像B5G低軌道通訊衛星但是它沒有掛在裡面其實那時候已經有政策預算一直在進行所以我們有根據這一個兩個加總期的人數的鋪排就是你聽到了670個就是這樣所以那次已經250億加410億之後你的編制就是671嗎?基本上是往這個方向"},{"start":8153.129,"end":8155.61,"text":"主委請回接下來請吳佩奕委員謝謝主席我請博客會吳承文主委好有請吳主委委員好"},{"start":8183.502,"end":8199.264,"text":"主委好首先要歡迎主委來到國科會加入我們行政院團隊的議員那因為我也是清大的校友那我看了一下我2013年從清大社研所畢業然後後來"},{"start":8200.726,"end":8204.149,"text":"主委你當時就2014年來擔任副校長所以首先歡迎你但是人在公門也好修行啦所以這一屆的這個行政的團隊我想是有很大的使命因為我們賴清德總統其實在就職的時候也告訴大家未來我們有五大六大的產業台灣其實正在一個轉型的這個轉捩點我們正在要去步入國際的舞台"},{"start":8225.527,"end":8226.047,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":8255.504,"end":8259.147,"text":"是已經有在跟經濟部討論海灣科學園區的計劃嗎?它目前是一個已經討論好的計劃還是一個初步的構想?初步的構想所以是我們經濟部主動來跟國科會討論還是我們國科會提出來的?"},{"start":8273.996,"end":8280.382,"text":"我跟郭部長見面的時候有聊到這個議題所以目前還沒有開始規劃還沒有開始規劃但是我們已經有一些構想那這個海外科學園區的構想主要我們是希望要達成什麼樣的目標每個政策都要有目標目標是什麼"},{"start":8294.192,"end":8320.621,"text":"我們的目標包含協助我們的產業的發展要擴散到國際因為台灣現在本身有一些資源已經不足的狀況包含人力的資源包含土地包含這個水電等等這些資源不足的狀況之下我們的產業要再發展能夠影響國際不能夠把所有的製造都放在台灣所以我們往國際發展但往國際發展當然要搭配我們的外交"},{"start":8322.102,"end":8344.02,"text":"到這個友善的國家也能夠協助友善國家他們當地的發展同時也彌補我們的資源不足讓雙方各盟齊力在這種狀況之下我們是很認同對台灣也好對整個賴總統提到的協助全球和平繁榮穩定的這個任務台灣也可以扮演這樣"},{"start":8344.961,"end":8347.764,"text":"對這個目標我也很認同但是主委你知道一件事情他很可能被詮釋成不同的觀點例如說我們產業的海外擴散換一個說法也有人可能會說這叫做產業的外移"},{"start":8360.234,"end":8379.63,"text":"所以我看你在報道裡面你有提到說有幾個要件一定要達成第一個是必須要達到互惠互利然後必須要有誘因再來必須要符合國家利益所以我還是想要請教我們由政府的力量來設置海外科學園區協助台灣的產業到海外擴散對我們來說我們什麼樣叫做互惠互利"},{"start":8386.959,"end":8401.998,"text":"我們其實是在因應我們本身產業的需求的狀況之下才會去做對我們台灣我們本地的產業要有利對我們本地產業有利那我們必須要擴展我們的市場擴展我們的製造基地"},{"start":8402.819,"end":8411.301,"text":"這是我們自己產業的需求但是在我們的資源不足的狀況之下國內資源已經產業發展到這個程度我想國內一定都支持我們台灣本地產業的提升但是產業的利益如何來分享到成為國民的利益也就是主委你說的嘛國家利益這一點我希望你們先初步的構想我相信相關都有在討論當中未來我們這個計畫整體來說我覺得非常的重要"},{"start":8431.766,"end":8450.657,"text":"從計劃的擬定到計劃的溝通我相信這一個海外的科學園區倘若是對我們台灣來說我們跟其他國家也可以達到互惠互利甚至未來經濟部外交部通通都要一起加入這個會是我們需要好好的跟社會來提出說明的有沒有預計在什麼時間我們要來提出這樣的計劃"},{"start":8454.039,"end":8482.077,"text":"如果明年的預算應該都已經報編了所以明年都報了沒有錯所以預計是在什麼時候我們這個會搭配民間的發展所以將來的這個投資不會全部是政府一定是民間會搭配進來至於園區是當地的政府一定要搭配所以我希望用我們自己國家最少的資源能夠達成最高的這個效益那這個詳細的這個做法等我跟這個郭部長"},{"start":8482.918,"end":8483.158,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":8507.248,"end":8517.291,"text":"中心的董事長所以我還是先必須問你一個行政上面的問題我們運科中心的董事長你辭了沒有啊已經辭了送出辭呈了董事會開了沒有我不知道他們開了已經辭了啦我已經辭了已經好這一個是要處理得清楚那因為我在我的選區在台北市的中正萬華我們萬華有一支也是世界知名的球隊東原國小的少棒隊"},{"start":8535.397,"end":8542.58,"text":"我長期就跟我們在地的家長也在推廣全國的燒棒錦標賽所以我可以看見像我們的賴總教練他已經三十幾年的教練非常努力的投入在我們基層的選手的培訓因為我們國科會今天的報告當中也有運科"},{"start":8553.365,"end":8574.335,"text":"我想這非常重要我們這個計畫已經來到第二期了嘛擴大運科研究量的這個計畫是我們國科會經濟部教育部衛福部跟速發部五個部會一起來合作的我們現在進入到第二期主要目標是什麼因為我看到你們說還需要來做這個科學成果的轉譯跟推廣所謂的轉譯跟推廣是什麼"},{"start":8577.338,"end":8599.777,"text":"我們除了在學界去鼓勵教授去做運動科技不是只有科學的研究科技也就是說結合科技的產業將來能夠提出來很多的方法、工具、系統甚至器材能夠協助我們的運動水準提升所以委員提到的這個哨棒我們其實在軍機部也有計畫在協助這個哨棒"},{"start":8602.279,"end":8602.5,"text":"獲得公務預算。"},{"start":8610.162,"end":8612.883,"text":"我們目前已經有相當多的研究成果所以你們提到轉移我就覺得特別重要因為在今天的報告裡我們看到你們執行的成果有我們的杭州亞運游泳銀牌選手王冠宏拳擊手選手陳彥琴這國人都非常熟悉但這都已經是世界級的頂尖選手所以我想如何把我們政府國家投入資源研究的成果能夠推廣到基層"},{"start":8638.174,"end":8648.281,"text":"能夠應用到國民體育我覺得也相當重要但目前我沒有看到比較具體的計畫跟規劃跟成果也許已經有在做所以我希望未來能夠提供相關的報告給我們那我給一個參考因為過去我在台北市擔任議員我們體育署有一個基層運動訓練站的計畫過去它都是在學校裡面各個學校裡面來設立運動站所以在既有學校裡面的資源以外我們另外投入了一個資源給在地基層的選手"},{"start":8667.313,"end":8678.34,"text":"但是我們也有一個條款是不一定要設在學校裡面例如說我一直在協助的霹靂舞它是一個新興運動我們也有選手正在要拼奧運的門票但是學校裡面還沒有霹靂舞校隊所以假設訓練站只在學校裡面那我們基層的選手永遠沒有辦法從基層開始訓練所以呢基層訓練站也可以由民間的團隊來成立這個我希望國科會能夠運用你們的專業"},{"start":8695.331,"end":8720.724,"text":"來跟我們其他像體育署、教育部等等相關的部會一起來合作。是同意。除了運科以外呢國科會研究成果的運用還有一個我覺得也很重要因為國科會的副主委同時也是我們文策院的當然董事所以呢在我們國家的文化政策推廣裡面國科會也是一個重要的角色例如我們講到的科技數位的運用比方說像我們國立歷史博物館就有這個"},{"start":8724.426,"end":8729.349,"text":"相關的數位展覽的計畫那這個計畫有什麼重要性有很多的偏鄉學校的小朋友他們比較沒有那麼多的機會來故宮參觀來國立歷史博物館參觀所以倘若我們可以運用我們的科技把這些展覽的內容把它數位化也是達到一個文化的平權所以我們目前國科會還有沒有相關的計畫"},{"start":8750.515,"end":8755.177,"text":"推動國家文化記憶庫及數位博物館計畫那我特別就要提醒諸位因為我想你的專長比較是科技那還有運科也是您過去的專長那文化的科技也是非常的重要那我們看到這個推動國家文化記憶庫"},{"start":8779.187,"end":8780.007,"text":"議員吳佩儀委員主委請回那我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8821.774,"end":8822.835,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8857.421,"end":8860.927,"text":"公務委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8874.375,"end":8888.682,"text":"公務委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8898.776,"end":8917.931,"text":"公務委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8927.759,"end":8931.481,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員"},{"start":8955.759,"end":8977.227,"text":"公務委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8986.425,"end":8998.061,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9001.613,"end":9024.271,"text":"二、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9031.425,"end":9038.219,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主"},{"start":9097.142,"end":9103.727,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":9114.003,"end":9114.683,"text":"好,我們會議繼續進行接下來請林益錦委員進行諮詢好,謝謝,謝謝主席有請吳主委好,請國發會吳誠文主委"},{"start":9141.949,"end":9142.97,"text":"國科會吳誠文主委"},{"start":9147.511,"end":9172.309,"text":"剛就職上任的賴清德總統在就職演說的時候他有提到說我們要進軍全球的太空產業那並從積極發展這個通訊相關的中低軌道衛星來開始那太空中心的吳宗信主任也有在近期受訪有進一步指出說希望台灣能發展"},{"start":9174.17,"end":9175.41,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9195.777,"end":9212.847,"text":"相信指日可待那國科會的業務報告裡頭有寫說我們會逐年來編列預算投入太空的相關計畫那到2031年加碼到400億以上那本席想了解說"},{"start":9214.628,"end":9234.575,"text":"到底要提出什麼時候要提出具體的這個工作計畫那工作計畫的內容方向又是什麼那是不是在下個會期審預算的時候我們就可以優先看到這個比較細部的工作計畫或者優先的工作計畫諸位"},{"start":9238.194,"end":9258.142,"text":"謝謝委員的確太空科技的發展對我們國家非常重要那我們要利用這樣的這個機會建立我們自己的產業太空科技跟這個產業那這個是對我們國防以及這個民間的發展都很重要所以我們未來經費會逐年增加那這個逐年增加"},{"start":9258.942,"end":9278.271,"text":"獲得金費的來源也是要基於我們對現有的優勢產業的發展能夠增加我們的這個經濟的實力獲得稅收提升我們的這個預算才有辦法支持太空科技的發展這個我們會同步進行那確確的這個第二期未來期程的發展"},{"start":9279.171,"end":9296,"text":"我會跟這個太空中心主任在討論因為我今天下午其實排定就要到太空中心去他們會跟我做業務報告我們會詳細來討論這個時程那所以下個會期審預算的時候就會看到這個太空優先的太空計畫嗎我們希望可以"},{"start":9299.439,"end":9313.497,"text":"另外就是說本席在去年11月我們審國科會預算的時候在像那個時候吳政中主委就提出說研議設置太空發展基金的可能"},{"start":9314.298,"end":9340.943,"text":"那去年國科會那當然主委那他也有那個說他可以來好好的這個研議那所以我們也要求說要6個月給他提出可行性研議的計畫那6個月到現在其實也到了所以請問主委有關這個太空發展基金的設置可行性研議的這個報告我們什麼時候可以收到"},{"start":9342.386,"end":9347.027,"text":"很抱歉我不知道有這件事是不是太空阿伯會比較清楚"},{"start":9347.725,"end":9377.065,"text":"跟委員報告一下那現在太空中心的內部有在做這一方面的研議但是跟委員報告太空基金畢竟是基金它屬於特種基金特種基金它要符合我們相關的基金的法規那在行政院有這種規定所以一般來講的話還要經過行政院的同意之後這基金才有辦法設立對因為當初審預算的時候就要求說6個月要提書面報告那個時候主委也有答應"},{"start":9377.87,"end":9377.891,"text":"好"},{"start":9378.302,"end":9408.302,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":9410.864,"end":9419.851,"text":"宇宙戰略基金因為我們要有這種宏大的想法發展這個太空產業就是要這樣"},{"start":9422.073,"end":9425.634,"text":"我們看到國科會最近幾個月陸續有去澳洲、法國進行交流跟簽署一些合作的協議展現我們跟外國進行科技交流的積極"},{"start":9449.483,"end":9463.043,"text":"那我們太空中心吳主任也跟公研院有共同率團去美國那參加這個國際太空衛星展會有策展那增加這個台灣太空技術的國際能見度"},{"start":9465.686,"end":9488.359,"text":"那目前日前這個印度的智庫觀察家研究基金會有指出印度因與台灣提升太空領域的合作因為台灣展現出這個技術合作夥伴這個多元化的意願那想要請問主委就是說除了印度的智庫肯定"},{"start":9490.02,"end":9496.918,"text":"台灣也願意就是說說我們跟印度有所謂的太空技術交流可能以外我們還"},{"start":9498.806,"end":9519.688,"text":"可以跟哪些國家有這個太空技術交流的合作那在具體內容上例如說這個衛星的製造啊火箭的發射啊等等這些主委你怎麼看我們除了跟印度就印度現在說要跟我們有交流合作嘛那我們還可以跟哪些國家積極做一些太空的交流"},{"start":9521.48,"end":9542.321,"text":"因為太空科技其實牽涉到非常敏感的技術在各個國家應該都是屬於保護的一些科技的項目所以我們可以合作的國家因為台灣是起步當中所以可以合作的國家我們當然希望越多越好只要是對台灣友善的國家有機會"},{"start":9543.442,"end":9543.842,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":9562.797,"end":9568.16,"text":"南科今年一到二月的營業額已經超車足科已經有2700多億那想必南科三期的擴建會帶來更高產值並在半導體也好智慧機械精準健康還有新興科技這產業的引進之下會提升台灣"},{"start":9586.89,"end":9588.291,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員"},{"start":9609.925,"end":9629.59,"text":"應該沒有問題。我們南科管理局書籍長是非常能幹的。是。好。那就如期如止的完工了。OK。那就永續發展的部分我還是想請教一下說提升南科這個事業廢棄物的再利用率到底有什麼樣的方式?"},{"start":9630.976,"end":9654.472,"text":"我看報告書是有要興建掩埋場那除了這個以外有沒有其他的對於失業廢棄物的處理方式我們在南科現在最重要的廠商就是台積電他的廠子在南科已經超過八成了他現在正在我們在南科的園區裡面正在建造零廢製造的這個設備邀請相關的這個廠商進駐"},{"start":9660.116,"end":9674.205,"text":"協助跟台積電一起協助在這個4月廢棄物的這個債利用率可以達到百分之百就是零費往這個目標再前進那目前我們三期擴建這個我們現在4月廢棄物的債利用率已經超過9成了"},{"start":9674.693,"end":9674.813,"text":"解凍案7案"},{"start":9690.013,"end":9711.32,"text":"最後想跟主委聊聊就是說在您跟昨天在跟國科會的媒體見面會中你充滿自信說要三個月內以產業數位化為內容要提出跨部會的這個方案剛剛也有很多委員在垂詢拼三個月有感的政績我想以你的專長是電機資訊工程我想當然"},{"start":9715.241,"end":9737.137,"text":"會致力於台灣的這個半導體跟AI的技術所以想請教我們數位治理跟AI的應用涉及那麼多的面向那在你的規劃中在你的腦袋中你想你會優先在這三個月提出哪些有感的這個政策我知道你說三個月後啦可是你是不是現在可以提供一些方向"},{"start":9737.779,"end":9758.944,"text":"我們的目標是先協助我們台灣很重要的社會需求面很重要的這個產業的發展因為現在大家關注就是我們的高科技的產業發展很好但是怎麼樣利用我們高科技的優勢來協助其他的產業包含我在媒體前面也舉了一個例子就是我們的工具機的業者"},{"start":9764.548,"end":9779.341,"text":"我們希望能夠逐漸轉成真正的智慧設備,智慧設備也協助其他的製造業可以同步的發展,那這個就是利用我們科技的實力,這個實力包含半導體很重要一定要進來,還有我們的資通訊,還有這個AI的技術都要進來。"},{"start":9782.564,"end":9797.17,"text":"這是一個我們立即有產業的需求也民間的需求我們會先去推動另外一個就是我們在健康台灣的願景之下我們在醫療照護健康大健康產業的發展也很需要我們的高科技產業來協助這兩個方向我們會先去規劃"},{"start":9800.151,"end":9810.936,"text":"哇!非常好!因為其實我們的傳統產業其實還是我們台灣的基底啦!所以你如果能引用高科技數位AI這種高科技來協助傳統產業的升級讓傳統產業可以跟高科技這個無縫接軌我覺得這是一個非常好的不然未來高科技一直在發展"},{"start":9821.34,"end":9851.323,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":9854.706,"end":9873.964,"text":"議員的見解非常好我們正好就是想要發展我們從這個醫療院所照顧傷病患者將來其實是要減低他的負擔希望能夠在居家不但可以做照護還可以做簡單的醫療這個就需要AI來協助那個把智慧化的這個醫療能夠推廣到居家到社區"},{"start":9874.625,"end":9875.226,"text":"謝謝林一金委員,請主委回座。"},{"start":9903.619,"end":9905.64,"text":"有請吳主委有請吳主委主委好我有看到你3月份在"},{"start":9928.777,"end":9950.591,"text":"自由共和國發表的頭文健康台灣在科技與人文的共融並進的文章可以看得出來主委是一個有人文思維的科學家我覺得我們"},{"start":9953.912,"end":9968.899,"text":"這幾年啊 有一點科技萬能啊 什麼事情都要找科技 什麼事情都AI 好像AI萬能然後所有事情包括我們政府都要AI政府 什麼事情只要掛上一個科技 好像事情就解決了 諸位你認可嗎"},{"start":9971.636,"end":9997.953,"text":"認可科技萬人可以解決所有問題我不認可對不起嚇我一跳我是認可委員提出來的批評提出來的批評對所以可以看得出來因為科技需要整合那我看到這一篇文章也談健康台灣提出三個面向要有健康的國民健康的文化不僅是文化應該是政策"},{"start":9999.98,"end":10015.589,"text":"關於健康產業因為這三個面向才是邁向健康台灣的重要元素也要連結不同年齡層的國民這個議題用科技的實力來幫助台灣逐步達成目標我想"},{"start":10016.69,"end":10026.561,"text":"這一個事實上是跟我在推動的壯世代不某而合。這一個主委是大學校長過來。我們有大學制道。大學制道三個是什麼?"},{"start":10035.376,"end":10041.938,"text":"這就是你剛才講的那三個目標在明明的就是健康的國民明明的就是明白做人的道理"},{"start":10055.664,"end":10074.679,"text":"明白現在國民,我們現在處境裡是特別是對一個高齡者他怎麼自我認知他是一個無用的人還是一個有貢獻的人這叫明明的在親民就是政府的角色政府不是在發展經濟不是在發展科技是在怎麼樣在親民"},{"start":10075.776,"end":10075.836,"text":"解凍案7案"},{"start":10095.058,"end":10117.319,"text":"這是國科會幫我們行政院打造的高齡產業高齡科技產業會議去年提出來的那個主委你看一下不要先看內容你看那個圖像想像的就是這兩個人偶是國科會所想像的高齡社會的樣態嗎?你認同嗎?"},{"start":10121.602,"end":10149.423,"text":"還可以再改善還可以再改善有改善空間啦好所有的就是安養晚年嘛安心舒適成就富足OK再看一下那現在的普惠科技現在談的大概就是什麼醫院、養老院、藥局、公園、樂齡宅、社區、文藝中心反正呢高齡者就是在這一些地方不是在要去醫院就是在醫院的路上然後科技就協助他們在這邊繞來繞去的時候更方便是不是"},{"start":10150.663,"end":10178.695,"text":"不應該是這樣不應該是這樣但是現國科會的想像是不是這樣子好OK這個是以前的事情跟你無關但是呢OK就是講說我國科會是一個整合的單位整合最重要是策略嘛策略是什麼策略最重要是方向嘛方向搞錯了後面所弄的都白搞了啦是嗎這個同意認同好"},{"start":10180.39,"end":10184.576,"text":"跟著我講說我這個來立法院三四個月"},{"start":10186.087,"end":10214.045,"text":"你是新科主委我也是新科立委我們一起努力我也來在學習但是我非常驚訝到每一個部會台灣明年進入超高齡社會2025年接下來是以全世界最快的速度邁向人口老化少子化是像斷崖式的一種墜落但是我發現所有的部會都沒有警覺都沒有覺悟"},{"start":10215.446,"end":10218.449,"text":"這兩個數字1970年我們台灣的年齡中位數這是國發會的資料19.3歲2011年年齡中位數52.4歲1970年65歲上的高齡者人口2.9%"},{"start":10237.041,"end":10260.423,"text":"2014年是30.1% 這什麼意思翻天覆地翻天覆地的改變但是呢我發現我們各部會有關高齡政策的制定都活在1970年用1970年這個金字塔的人口圖在想像我們的高齡政策說的部會對高齡的幾乎都是方會"},{"start":10262.14,"end":10290.251,"text":"幾乎所有的經費都是在衛福部80%的經費在衛福部各部會有的也是配合衛福部差花一下而已沒有在重視在這一個方向我期待這個國科會來接下來所以行政院提出的版本就會產生這個樣子我也問陳建仁院長他說院長這個是要給你用的你哪一些地方會讓你有需要他說通通都不需要"},{"start":10292.011,"end":10302.198,"text":"我說那你做這個東西給誰用啊?是啊,我們政府在做的,沒有了解這一個高齡這個世代,現在台灣60歲以上的,我們談壯世代是55歲以上,55歲以上現在台灣800萬人。"},{"start":10307.622,"end":10335.418,"text":"八百萬人竟然沒有政策沒有方向沒有產業所以整個未來年輕人也被壓垮了因為所有的財富在這些人在壯世代的手中三分之二財富在壯世代手中竟然沒有壯世代產業沒有這些人的產業全部的人要去賺年輕人的錢扭曲的社會扭曲的政策嘛再有什麼樣的科技有什麼用"},{"start":10336.909,"end":10351.248,"text":"方向都錯誤所以在這裡我們現在為什麼這樣因為大家都用引法族思維我要把它翻轉成為壯世代思維這以後有機會再跟族委好好的來請教"},{"start":10354.604,"end":10381.879,"text":"但是這個可以講的我們現在這個Maslow的這個人的需求我們現在都在生理系的安全需求這個最低層次啦就剛才這個朱偉祥健康台灣那三個層次完全都沒有啦完全沒有就是未來我們應該朝向這個層面你原來這個普惠的那一個都是低層次的最低層次的應該要努力的這種科技會讓人沒有距離讓人更幸福"},{"start":10383.092,"end":10397.364,"text":"所以這裡對整個國會在引導我們的產業引導我們關於高齡產業的想像空間那這個現在想像的空間太局限了啦就是高齡者只有800萬人只有養老養生養老養病啦"},{"start":10404.309,"end":10424.828,"text":"只要往這個方向事實上他是美好的第三人生台灣最大的動力最大的財富在這一塊所以呢在這一塊當中的國科會應該要落實高齡科技產業的全面市場的需求調查現在相相都把它想像只有那一個啦整個市場的缺乏"},{"start":10426.84,"end":10447.946,"text":"最後呢這個6月44號國科會要回覆本席在這裡對國科會提出的這個提案我跟萬美玲跟黃孟楷委員在這裡的提案也就國科會應該規劃高齡科技產業的市場需求調查我到現在沒有收到那第二條就是"},{"start":10449.206,"end":10470.084,"text":"就是精進高齡科技產業相關計畫及提出專者市場需求系統性的研究方案要在三個月之內來提到教育委員會這個6月14日到期因為你剛來所以我提醒一下因為現在還沒有交過來所以就拜託主委謝謝"},{"start":10476.028,"end":10480.793,"text":"好,謝謝吳淳澄委員。主委請回接下來請葉元之委員麻煩請主委,謝謝有請吳主委"},{"start":10502.032,"end":10518.216,"text":"主委好第一次見面但是我從媒體有看到一些關於你的報導個人非常的敬佩像今天有媒體報導說你說無意讓大陸科技持續落後然後也不會介入中美的禁足然後呼籲對方放棄敵意這是報紙報導應該是沒有錯"},{"start":10521.857,"end":10547.047,"text":"我覺得你非常好就是我們沒有意識形態完全站在產業跟科技但是我非常擔心你這樣發言在民進黨政府我不知道說能不能被接受因為我印象當中在2019年的時候民進黨的立委也在我們的委員會范雲女士她就曾經公開抹紅你就是說你在清大當時好像曾經有參加過一些兩岸交流的學術活動"},{"start":10547.887,"end":10562.979,"text":"就說你們清代已經已經被這個中共控制了然後當時我們有國民黨委員質詢蘇貞昌院長結果說怎麼可以這樣抹紅呢那結果蘇貞昌院長說沒有抹紅他就是紅然後甚至於講說"},{"start":10563.66,"end":10565.461,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":10587.423,"end":10597.392,"text":"當時我是擔任清華大學副校長當時是馬英九總統任內鼓勵兩岸的交流2015年嘛"},{"start":10600.91,"end":10625.112,"text":"2015﹚還是2015、2016嘛你們有兩件事情被罵啦一件事情是2015啦你去參加一個街牌啦就是一個清華的一個學術中心的街牌還有一個是2019年當時是清華大他們對岸的清華大學副校長來訪嘛所以清大校長去接待嘛然後就說清大被滲透了啦當時有沒有在學校看到很多匪諜有沒有舉報"},{"start":10628.522,"end":10644.12,"text":"這個跟我無關啦。我不知道有沒有。民進黨講有就有啊。黨說有就有啦。我當時當副校長是奉命接待啦。那時候校長令有其他的事情不在。那時候心路歷程是怎樣?就是被抹紅的心路歷程是怎樣?"},{"start":10644.8,"end":10671.105,"text":"當然是非常委屈嘛我本人是一切是以台灣為優先我關心我們的社會關心我們的國家的發展所以我的生涯裡面所有的工作不管是在學術界還是在公務員服務擔任校長等等我從來就是不會以政治意識為考量"},{"start":10672.505,"end":10694.212,"text":"我會以國家本土的發展為優先的考量其實大家都是了但是有些人就很喜歡抹紅別人扣人家帽子那當時罵你最兇的是范雲女士也是我們教育文化委員會我是不知道她質詢過了沒還沒你有沒有什麼話要跟她講嗎說委員你誤會我了我是一生以台灣為優先不要動不動扣帽子你會這樣子跟她講嗎"},{"start":10697.333,"end":10715.438,"text":"我想委員應該最後還是會明瞭我的心意啦我是為台灣他很難瞭解別人心意啊真的一個有色眼鏡戴酒的人啊很難瞭解別人心意啦很會吃自助餐啦女權自助餐就是要攻擊別人的時候就搬女權然後呢要袒護自己人的時候就看不到"},{"start":10716.158,"end":10739.976,"text":"所以當時你就是他攻擊的目標啦他很難看到啦我建議你還是要跟他講一下因為現在你的位置特別重要到時候不要國科會推動一些兩岸交流相關事務因為尤其是你在報紙上也講了嘛你說這個不會無意讓大陸科技持續落後啊然後不會介入中美進逐哦等一下可能又被罵了我認為你在第一時間要講清楚好不好我們都是為了台灣"},{"start":10743.118,"end":10754.346,"text":"為台灣為台灣正常的交流不要抹紅對吧我尊照身為政府官我尊照賴總統的指示我們要建造一個"},{"start":10755.563,"end":10757.404,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":10776.556,"end":10776.716,"text":"解凍案7案"},{"start":10792.012,"end":10817.244,"text":"因為大家當然延續兩岸的話題大家擔心說兩岸未來會不會有一些國安的問題開戰美國路透社有個報導說荷蘭的ASSML就是一個光刻機的廠商他說他可以跟我們台積電在遠端只要台灣遇到一些國安問題可以在遠端關閉台積電的一些設備這個不知道你有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":10818.405,"end":10843.001,"text":"有 有看到新聞那 那 因為當時 這個新聞出來之後大家覺得說 欸 那麼厲害喔原來可以做到這樣的技術 那到時候 就算開戰好像台積電也不太容易就淪落到他人之手嘛那 所以大家很關注啦 那 因為 很多專家後來媒體報導之後出來就進口了 就不講了這個事情 我想請教一下主委你對這個事情的了解是怎樣 有可能在技術上做得到嗎"},{"start":10844.298,"end":10867.43,"text":"以現在在半導體產業的智慧製造的技術是可以做得到是可以做得到所以他們是有能力遠端關閉全球最先進的晶片製造設備EUV是不是 是可以的技術上是可以的那所以這個新聞就是沒有錯嘛你有證實有這樣的一個技術嘛"},{"start":10870.563,"end":10896.903,"text":"到底國家科學會針對這方面的技術有任何的比如說鼓勵研發嗎或增加相關的能量有嗎這個本身是智慧製造的技術我們各行各業各種設備只要能夠連上網路就可以利用這個智慧製造的這種技術可以來監控遠方的設備包含停機這個事情"},{"start":10897.843,"end":10920.881,"text":"好,再來這是我個人接受的一個陳情因為主委剛上任其實這個議題我關心很久了上任主委本來在我執行的時候有答應我說要提出一個解決方案不過每次都是這樣在委員會講的官員的承諾到最後都沒有然後要求給報告給個報告就是講一些無關痛癢的背景從來不針對問題"},{"start":10922.742,"end":10943.322,"text":"所以我利用這個機會也跟主委再講一下希望說主委真的能夠解決這個問題這個問題是因為國科會有一個博士生的研究獎學金的試辦方案去年開始的那去年9月的時候開了一個記者會然後隨即隔一個月立刻就收件那就收件一個月的時間"},{"start":10945.263,"end":10969.314,"text":"獎學金主要是要補助新入學的博士生大概是這樣但它裡面有幾個問題會發生第一個問題就是因為它是在一月多的時候就公布得到獎學金的名單九月收件、一個月收件、隔年一月公布導致於說很多是一月之後才決定要讀博士班的學生他是沒有辦法去申請這個獎學金的"},{"start":10971.956,"end":10997.078,"text":"他們就成為漏網之魚啦然後第二個是我覺得這個宣傳是完全不足因為當時我問了很多學校的學生跟學校的老師還有一些本來想要讀博士班的學生他們通通都不知道這個訊息所以我們就質疑說是不是只有巷子內的人才知道有這個東西宣傳不足收件時間又很短"},{"start":10998.175,"end":11017.444,"text":"只有跟國科會比較熟的人或者是跟國科會裡面官員比較熟的人才有可能得到這個訊息才能夠來申請這也是一個非常大的問題後來就在博士班裡面造成一個話題很多在學的博士班學生不能接受就認為說這個獎金到底在幹嘛"},{"start":11019.545,"end":11039.833,"text":"那很多人是已經一年級了嘛,已經一年級他就不能夠去申請這個補習班嘛,獎學金嘛,因為這個獎學金是針對還沒入學的。所以很多一年級的學生他變成說那他再去重新去先爭取到資格然後再去考一個博士班,然後想要取得這個獎學金的資格。"},{"start":11040.773,"end":11069.192,"text":"我上次已經針對相關的問題有質詢過原來的國會主委那時候國會主委也覺得說這有點怪怪的說要提供一個解決方案那那個影片在網路上我也都有公開我也有把這影片傳給我們的民眾說我們會願意解決可是後來就沒有了就不了了之啊然後給的報告就是那種敷衍的啊那這個東西已經隔了兩個月了啊我們又得到一個答案我們對於我們的民眾也沒辦法交代啊"},{"start":11069.992,"end":11076.877,"text":"那既然國會會要編這個預算為什麼不能把它做到好呢?我可以請我們科國處來?可以可以可以因為"},{"start":11079.176,"end":11099.234,"text":"報告啊那其實我們在辦理這個獎學金的時候我們其實有找各個大學的主要大學叫學員長或是國際長有來做個說明那我們也有發過新聞稿對你現在就是不夠我剛剛講的是11發生的問題你現在講的是說你做了什麼你做比如說你考試啊你考5分啊我現在跟你講說你沒有到100分結果你說有啊我對了數學一題"},{"start":11102.156,"end":11129.074,"text":"那你還差95分嘛所以你不要告訴我這5分的事情我現在是告訴你說你沒有做到100分甚至80分都沒有到你要怎麼解決那我們今年你要怎麼解決因為已經講很久了解決方案解決方案是什麼針對已經發生的因為現在很多博士班一年級二年級的在學生他們也沒有辦法申請嘛那為什麼你只圖利一些就知道這訊息的人呢你為什麼不能夠擴大讓大多數人都可以得到這個獎學金呢"},{"start":11129.855,"end":11155.414,"text":"那我們回去會再...不要回去了啦!又要回去,回去就沒有啦!欸!主委!主委!那個...我前面都對你很客氣我都...我對你都非常客氣那...可是我不喜歡人家呼嚨我但是我已經被國科會呼嚨了兩個月了已經呼嚨兩個月那以後大家也不是沒有見面的機會如果說國會以後來這邊備學的態度都是我在這邊反正我有時間限制嘛"},{"start":11156.855,"end":11183.802,"text":"先騙一下或者是每次回答問題都從女娲補天開始講然後講到把我時間拖完然後剩下就說回去回去然後最後又沒有補那我覺得這種態度我沒辦法接受所以卓偉我現在就嚴厲的要求就是說我因為已經兩個月了什麼時候可以給我一個真正解決的方案下個禮拜下個禮拜卓偉你講的喔卓偉他那個卓偉講的卓偉他不理我"},{"start":11185.68,"end":11210.271,"text":"那你幫我跟主委講一下因為我們國民黨的國科會比較不理我們民進黨幫我講一下因為我在這邊質詢也是委員會的委員嘛好不好你跟委員會講一下說上次已經呼嚨一次了希望他們尊重我們教文委員會可以嗎?不會再呼嚨啦解決方案喔不是說給我一個說從米挖普天開始講這種東西喔考100分然後說我考了5分很棒了這種東西喔"},{"start":11211.491,"end":11221.902,"text":"我們只要補救就好了補救解決嘛上次問題你講很清楚了好不好大家維持一個互相尊重的良善的互動方式好嗎沒問題好謝謝好謝謝葉淵芝委員也請吳主委務必拿出解決的具體的方法速速速度快"},{"start":11236.152,"end":11246.246,"text":"好,我再來請羅廷瑋委員那我再宣告一下等陳佩玉委員諮詢完之後我們來處理臨時提案跟解凍案好謝謝主席有請吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":11257.796,"end":11284.244,"text":"委員好吳主委好恭喜上任歡迎加入我們教文的大家庭叫你吳主委感覺很親切因為上一個也是吳主委我今年年初才來立法院就職跟吳正宗主委相處時間比較短相信接下來時間我們有很長的一段時間會合作本期感到非常的期待為什麼開頭要聊到這個正宗主委因為今年3月的時候吳主委進行了業務報告兩個月後"},{"start":11285.985,"end":11309.094,"text":"您新上任也做了業務報告當然我們有共同關注到幾個重要的科學議題但是我想民眾會想更知道的一件事情是您接任國科會主委您跟吳政宗主委有什麼差別在業務上的執行上有什麼風格不同未來有什麼特別要處理的政策可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":11310.117,"end":11336.96,"text":"我想我們過去非常注重經濟的發展因為經濟發展好的話我們才有足夠的能力來協助我們整個社會文化的提升所以我想在我的任內除了延續我們原來在科技產業很努力的做研發做產業的推動之外我們也會努力的來協助整個社會文化提升各行各業利用我們科技的優勢來協助他們"},{"start":11338.001,"end":11355.956,"text":"好,我們一起努力各行各業我希望不管是從上到下基層的很多行業也需要幫忙不要讓他們覺得國科會很遠不要讓他們不知道有國科會的存在本期想要向主委詢問一下精創方案回到我們施政的主軸上"},{"start":11356.796,"end":11368.701,"text":"這個方案目前加速推動了四大佈局也就是所謂推動深層式AI幫助百工百業強化國內培育環境吸納全球頂尖人才那你本身自己有在用深層式AI嗎?"},{"start":11371.489,"end":11393.359,"text":"坦白講我個人有用過但是還不是很滿意有用過是對生成式AI不是很滿意還是你使用的過程不是很滿意對生成式AI來講我們要知道他的能力然後他的限制是因為他使用了這個AI統計式的方法他是不可能達到100%準確你要的答案"},{"start":11395.54,"end":11421.106,"text":"但是你有研究我們所謂年輕人說的深圳市AI有所謂的這個魔咒咒語你會使用相關的咒語嗎我目前沒有所謂的咒語就是他的指令我想這個是要去了解深圳市AI可能需要掀起的一個先前目的那我想經濟部合作推動加速一直整合以及先進的技術開發最後就是要推動系導的一個實力我想"},{"start":11421.846,"end":11444.122,"text":"我們更希望能夠在國內外新創的同時吸引投資來台這個計畫預計10年內要投資3000億今年第一年就投入120億之前國科會期許5年會有多家IC的新創國內誕生那我想半年過去的具體執行狀況如何有沒有進展我可以請我們負責同仁"},{"start":11450.146,"end":11470.595,"text":"請說關於IC新創其實我們因為開始執行我們已經正式那個開始弄取一個那個全球公安的一個競賽的規劃那因為剛開始嘛所以我們在未來幾個月在年底之前會再跟委員報告整個的狀態因為已經半年了那所以就只是目前這樣子主委你覺得呢聽完他剛剛說的"},{"start":11476.481,"end":11480.383,"text":"聽起來就是好像有做事但是"},{"start":11497.85,"end":11526.157,"text":"主軸具體好像也看不出來是半年了大概做些什麼但沒關係我會關注一下這過程我相信有努力啦剛剛你講了很多的這個算是日程嗎或者是你們的一些會議OK但是我們希望的是半年了有沒有具體有沒有準備要做什麼那有沒有進展的一個具體方向讓我們能夠更確定的知道我想想問問主委在CHAP GPT剛問事的時候你有沒有試問過"},{"start":11527.748,"end":11550.753,"text":"剛剛有說有沒有什麼使用過對有啊有使用過那現在可以說是LAN一個世代為什麼這樣說因為目前國歌會的泰的模型聯發科有自己的模型台智雲有福爾摩沙大模型群創光電有白龍模型大家都致力於在打造繁體中文模組的一個AI模型那因為上個月"},{"start":11551.693,"end":11577.492,"text":"四月十五國科會才釋出了Tide 7B的模型說是結合台灣文化擁有七十億參數的大型語言模組我想緊接著呢Meta又釋出了自己的一個相關的模組國科會立馬又在四月二十九號又發表了Lama3 Alpha的一個模組模型"},{"start":11579.231,"end":11594.092,"text":"請問這個研發速度可以說是AI的軍備競賽感受到你們的積極度但我想詢問一下包括關你們的這個資料庫的來源目前可以提供說大概來源資料庫來源大概都來自哪一國嗎"},{"start":11595.649,"end":11611.692,"text":"我們資料庫的來源應該都是台灣的都是台灣自己是在台灣本土收集的所以70億全數都來自台灣我想我不敢說自己是專家我也不敢在你們面前說我多了解"},{"start":11612.253,"end":11637.28,"text":"但我想有自己去稍微了解一下我們目前發展的基礎以META開發的一個LM2的一個模組模型也就是我們現在使用試用開源的一個資料他在pressuring的過程中就已經有簡體資料的一個簡體中文的資料我們頂多可以給他看繁體資料但不能避免這個開源模型已經有簡體資料對吧"},{"start":11640.628,"end":11665.923,"text":"這個可能會存在的對如果我們想要完全避免檢體資料進而開發一個全面的繁體資料應該會遇到兩個問題第一個問題就是本體的資料不足數據量遠遠不足我想跟全世界來比第二個更大的問題就是如果是只有繁體的資料就需要重新訓練是對吧是就本期"},{"start":11666.903,"end":11686.873,"text":"自己查的資料去了解重新訓練沒有幾萬片H100的GPU辦不到目前台灣國家隊大概只有72片遠遠低於國外的新創團隊與大企業請問要如何重新訓練我們正在努力在加速建置我們的運算的資源我剛說GPU數量有錯嗎那個國王我請國王中心主任來回答"},{"start":11695.711,"end":11714.561,"text":"不好意思因為我看到您不是很肯定的我想說給你回答都沒關係我們可以互相的報告委員那個去年台德計劃展開的時候我們構置了72片的H100的GPU對嘛72片這是你剛剛提的但是我們台灣32號本來就有2000片的V100在國王掌控裡面有1000片"},{"start":11715.825,"end":11739.867,"text":"所以我剛說的重新訓練我們估計要幾萬片的一個GPU那目前我們只有72片如果我們只能基於還是有簡體資料的前提下多加入了繁體資料只能做到繁體中文的微調本席想了解那麼就這樣的基礎所開發的AI模型與OpenAI、ChapGPT也好Google的具體落差在哪裡"},{"start":11740.327,"end":11748.757,"text":"目前繁體中文與所謂的簡體中文資料在訓練數據中比例各佔多少?是否具體的數據可以提供一下?"},{"start":11751.222,"end":11777.723,"text":"這個簡體跟繁體的比率其實沒有一個精確的統計但是Lama事出的時候他有提到他的中文的比率是多少那可以拿來做參考但是並不是說本來是簡體他就一定會你如果為很多的繁體中文他事實上說會改變他的參數繁體中文的表現會越來越好好所以我說剛剛以我們的AI模型跟OpenAI、ChapGPT、Google的具體落差在哪?"},{"start":11779.636,"end":11807.348,"text":"他們的模型是非常大的模型是從頭訓練起我們是fine tuning和continuous retraining所以當然是有他的差距在我想那聽出來我們的差距不是微幅是非常的巨大因為畢竟我們要跟國外相比我們也要看使用者到底未來想使用的他的具體希望得到的成效是什麼他當然會希望不管是語言模組或者是後續的資料庫"},{"start":11809.109,"end":11836.189,"text":"獲得大量資料支撐生成式AI或生成式的東西才可以加大它的生成式出來的資料是有確定性或者是穩定性甚至是我們說的準確性能夠提高這是一個使用者他希望能夠追求的那本席目前有看到國科會定調希望作為一個資助開源模型的資助產業例如工研院電光所可以運用的"},{"start":11837.43,"end":11845.441,"text":"結合相關的技術或是針對鋼鐵的產業知識提供智慧化的問答檢索詢問高爐或電弧爐的相關產業知識除了這些我們還計畫將泰的7B運用在哪些具體的產業上"},{"start":11855.58,"end":11869.677,"text":"委員報告吼,我們現在那個是對於產業的協助吼,其實我們是以那個公開釋出,那麼他們可以去來使用的吼,那目前表達興趣的像醫療體系他們有表達興趣來使用這個type這樣子。"},{"start":11870.675,"end":11893.98,"text":"我想就是公開大家各自使用啦是因為不同的專業要用不同的資格來訓練主委討論到這樣子我們不覺得很奇怪嗎國科會的會真的有具體了解到台灣產業的需求嗎我們到底要提供百工百業在生成式AI未來能夠使用上有什麼樣的具體幫助我認為發展本土化翻體中文LM"},{"start":11895.04,"end":11913.832,"text":"模型我們支持我們也不希望看到簡體中文但是在本土化的過程中到底我們的資料能不能期待他能夠有更多元能夠納到跟國外的相關的我們說的GPT OpenAI的資料庫"},{"start":11914.913,"end":11943.402,"text":"來做一個比擬我想台灣如果發展了一個只能搜尋少量英文、繁體中文、本土資訊的搜尋引擎這個其價值、商業價值我相信是比較低的為什麼?因為我認為還是要回歸到AI工具實不實用所以我想講白了OpenAI、ChapGVT如果沒有大量全球的知識去擴充只有台灣本土的知識主委你個人覺得它實用嗎?"},{"start":11944.322,"end":11962.356,"text":"通用型AI跟比較專業的AI是不一樣的這是訓練資料的差異所以我們在台灣我們要發展各行各業用的AI它的訓練資料就要用各行各業的資料那甚至是AI的好處就是說你的資料量不足但是廣度夠的話它可以產生非常多的訓練資料幫它做得很好"},{"start":11963.038,"end":11990.913,"text":"我想國科會應該要實事求是我們應該要去擴充發展自己的LLM的一個工具讓企業廣泛來使用本席具體的要求國科會研議企業LLM訓練方案台灣需要的不是那種很簡單的手續引擎我想台灣需要的是發展適合中小企業可以訓練LLM的一個簡易工具主委能夠答應我們來研議嗎我們會鼓勵學界努力做這個事情我們大家一起來努力好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11993.748,"end":11995.449,"text":"主委請問主委一個問題"},{"start":12021.424,"end":12036.336,"text":"剛剛國民黨葉元之委員在跟您質詢的時候他提了那五個字我實在是不想再念一次喔對於長年從事性別平等教育的我來說我不想再念剛剛葉元之委員講的那五個字我想主委應該也不想重複齁"},{"start":12037.737,"end":12058.089,"text":"但是我要強調從剛剛葉元芝的委員發言主委你認不認同性別平權教育不能再等待他應該也要是國科會從之前很多位主委一直流傳下來到未來應該也會是您非常重要的施政方向請您做回應是是你要不要再多說一點"},{"start":12059.278,"end":12084.347,"text":"同意同意同意好同意那我們就不要再講那五個字了啦我也希望所有的不管是哪一黨的委員自己的性別平權相關概念如果不足是不是應該要更加強應該加強這也是國科會不管是在做相關政策的推動或者是相關研究的關懷甚至是你們我們等一下會提到的科普列車我也期許主委您在相關的性別平權這件事情上絕對絕對要再持續好嗎"},{"start":12087.428,"end":12102.998,"text":"免得又發生像剛剛那樣的發言好 謝謝主委昨天您跟舊的主委交接了 前吳主委我很好奇他有沒有跟您說到什麼是他任內還來不及做完的他還有一些關懷跟熱情的希望您可以持續推動的他其實有很多的想法"},{"start":12110.072,"end":12117.803,"text":"一、國際的拓展我們跟很多國家簽訂了雙邊的科技協議再來就是說我們在促進台灣的產業發展雖然國科會"},{"start":12125.174,"end":12150.533,"text":"以這個學界的力量做研發的工作但是最後還是要落地到能夠協助產業發展這一部分他也很努力那我也希望能夠持續那這個產業的發展不但是我們的科技業我剛剛有提到我們將來也是想要協助比較傳統的產業也可以利用我們的科技的優勢來互相的這個合作能夠把我們的傳統產業也能夠把它拉升上來"},{"start":12150.973,"end":12155.134,"text":"好 謝謝主委您剛提到了現有的科技產業或是正在發展的科技產業還有傳統產業都希望有學界研究的力量加以支持我們當然也非常認同可是除此之外我也要拜託主委跟您分享"},{"start":12166.318,"end":12191.457,"text":"從我去年上任到現在我們一直在跟前主委談的事情就是關於對於台灣兒童跟青少年的研究其中我們一直標榜我們一直在意拜託國科會開啟相關兒少身心健康的研究我想要先給主委看一下這張報表15歲到24歲自殺死亡率近10年持續上升我想您身為科學家你看到這個數字就不用我再多說"},{"start":12192.918,"end":12219.334,"text":"這張數字、這張表格我想更清楚它告訴我們15歲到24歲自殺通報最多但更令人擔心害怕的是0到14歲持續上升之前在賴總統跟青少年座談當中其實也有很多小學生也提出來他們確實也因為功課壓力家庭或是社區文化或是整個網路環境的變遷確實有越來越多的孩子們感覺到自己身心健康而且是需要大人幫忙的"},{"start":12219.814,"end":12234.531,"text":"之前在跟國科會的討論當中國科會也告訴我們確實有很多專家學者表示對於數位時代青少年身心健康的狀態其實大家是不熟悉的那我們來看一下我們之前一直在跟國科會講"},{"start":12235.472,"end":12262.791,"text":"其實在國外已經有非常非常多的相關研究已經在開展甚至已經有很多研究成果在分享出來但是回到台灣本地對於台灣自己的社區議題家庭議題、教育議題其實跟國外非常多國家非常多的不同那我們有沒有機會在這個不同點上促使台灣更多專家學者願意在國科會的支持下投入相關研究不知道主委您聽到目前為止你有什麼看法不知道主委您認不認同"},{"start":12263.812,"end":12270.5,"text":"用國科會的力量來支持台灣的專家學者教授進行兒少身心健康的相關研究。"},{"start":12271.192,"end":12287.585,"text":"我認同希望能夠增加所以主委在您的認知底下我們到底還能夠做哪些事情在去年的10月18號我們拜託前主委在相關的研究可以開啟我們也非常感謝國科會確實當時也協同教育部還有衛福部開啟相關會議的討論可是看起來大家認為有跨部會的問題或者是如何取得這些學生資料的問題或者是一旦有很多研究他必須要進入校園當中他可能會有很多實務上的困境"},{"start":12301.115,"end":12328.342,"text":"所以我要再次強調這件事情在新主委您上任之後您剛剛也說你非常認同那您覺得在實際的做法上您可以怎麼樣鼓勵相關專案研究的開啟或者是一個更大的計畫來主動積極的邀請台灣不同領域但是跟身心健康有關跟認識兒少有關甚至是跟家庭教育學校學習環境有關共同開啟一個跨部會的研究或是跨科別的研究主委這邊可以簡單表示一下意見嗎"},{"start":12331.42,"end":12335.362,"text":"據同仁跟我講我們已經在啟動了這是委員關心這個事情已經在啟動我會關注這個事我會持續來協助來連結我們其他的部會"},{"start":12345.147,"end":12347.248,"text":"接下來我們要談一下主委您自己的LINE裡面有沒有加入災防中心的這個社群?"},{"start":12362.857,"end":12377.726,"text":"你這樣微笑看就是沒有啦我跟你分享一下這個也是去年我們在跟國科會開會的時候國科會建議我說委員你可以加入我們就真的有加入囉然後在地震之後呢果然是很有幫助的齁那主委你知不知道我們這個災防中心的LINE帳號"},{"start":12378.727,"end":12403.996,"text":"他不僅可以闢謠,重點是他可以第一時間提供正確資訊。0403大地震的時候當天除了很多各地的災情回報之外,第一個我的手機所收到的謠言就是龜山島的那個頭啊,掉了。大家就很緊張瘋傳,但是呢當時就有正確資訊出來闢謠。那主委你知道嗎目前台灣有多少人加入這個災防中心的LINE帳號?"},{"start":12405.436,"end":12425.356,"text":"一百六十三萬有有你的同仁很近者一百六十三萬可是少你一個主委拜託要加入這樣那我們去年呢這個災防中心的LINE帳號發出了三億七千萬則訊息主委你眉毛抬了一下你很驚訝對不對這個數字而且這些訊息非常非常重要好我們來往下看"},{"start":12428.292,"end":12429.853,"text":"我請主任來回答"},{"start":12451.81,"end":12458.112,"text":"委員你好也就是4月22號啊他因為超過了一個月是超過了8000萬折對那現在我們跟那公司啊這個談妥了他要給我們吳上線也就是吃到飽啊那後續這個合作會持續下去嗎會持續下去好我們希望這個要持續"},{"start":12468.655,"end":12469.135,"text":"主委您是來自運客中心"},{"start":12489.207,"end":12489.307,"text":"您認同嗎?認同"},{"start":12507.862,"end":12521.223,"text":"你認為在運動科學是這樣那一般的科學或是更廣泛包含剛剛有非常多委員問到AI你覺得這些科學知識需不需要更花力氣更花很多的方法跟新時代的公民溝通是好"},{"start":12523.206,"end":12543.288,"text":"除了這個溝通之外您認為我們其實照國科會在過往在科普活動上你們做了列車然後也做了這個競效員的活動那甚至呢在去年吧今年新增了這所謂小孩的角度的視角Kids Science你們有人文沙龍有TTA Talk活動但是我們要再次提醒國科會"},{"start":12544.682,"end":12564.161,"text":"其實在科學技術基本法入法之後相關會與所謂科學普及這件事情在立法說明裡面有一段我想要再次拜託國科會也許過往不在國科會的視野當中但是未來我希望國科會可以努力提升這件事情就是所有的科學技術研究發展預算的研究計畫制定的時候應納入科普推廣的考量要讓國人可以進一步了解"},{"start":12570.406,"end":12584.258,"text":"國內科研預算的使用成果提高一般民眾對於科學知識瞭解跟興趣還可以成為知識經濟產業升級的動力主委您怎麼看這件事情不管是知識的傳播或是知識經濟產業升級"},{"start":12587.578,"end":12606.842,"text":"或是你可以請你的幕僚回答好,我個人認為這是很正面的,我們應該做,是好需要我們,處長來好,謝謝能問出跟委員報告就是其實這個概念是非常正確的因為各行各業包括我們的所有的專業領域裡面最後其實這幾年已經真的在調整了"},{"start":12607.482,"end":12629.843,"text":"過去我們都認為說應該是作為專注在基礎研究但是我相信我們已經都開始在拍影片不只是科國處而已連各處都已經在做這些事情所以請委員放心好那這個部分我辦公室當然會持續的追蹤我時間到了好沒關係那就我準時把握時間那我要最後再一次拜託主委最後主席再給我30秒就好了"},{"start":12631.733,"end":12653.255,"text":"這件事情很重要性別平權教育不能等相關的國科會推廣研究或是相關政策推進拜託主委在您的任內一定要持續關注這件事情當然我們剛剛說青少年身經營康科普推廣或是知識經濟產業升級這件事情也非常重要但我覺得這個基本公民常識也要拜託主委跟國科會拜託更多學者專家一起努力謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":12660.285,"end":12663.551,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝陳培宇委員主委請回那我們現在就先來處理解凍案7案請議事委員員宣讀"},{"start":12671.258,"end":12690.105,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會行為103年度中央政府總預算決議解凍財團法人國家實驗研究院發展計劃預算凍結1000萬元書面報告警察詔案國家科學及技術委員會行為113年度中央政府總預算決議解凍財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心發展計劃預算凍結500萬元書面報告警察詔案"},{"start":12692.226,"end":12706.535,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會行為113年度中央政府總預算決議解凍非營業特種基金預算凍結2000萬元順便報告警察照案國家科學及技術委員會行為113年度中央政府總預算決議解凍資訊服務費預算凍結5%順便報告警察照案"},{"start":12711.338,"end":12733.107,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會含為103年度中央政府總預算決議解凍新竹科學園區管理局決議園區業務推展預算動機二十萬元數密報告警察詐案國家科學及技術委員會含為103年度中央政府總預算決議解凍中部科學園區管理局決議園區業務推展預算動機二十萬元數密報告警察詐案"},{"start":12733.808,"end":12745.49,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會行為113年度中央政府總預算決議解送南部科學園區管理局決議園區業務推展預算動機二十萬元數願包含警察詐案宣讀案"},{"start":12749.841,"end":12765.193,"text":"總共有7案喔那我們先來處理第一案第一案是國歌會的第4幕財團法人國家實驗與研究院發展計畫預算編列72億4500億3萬1千元凍結1000萬元那這個案子要解凍有沒有意見那如果沒有意見那我們就"},{"start":12780.413,"end":12797.469,"text":"我們就準以動之提報院會第二案第二案是有關於第五幕國家同步輻射研究中心發展計劃的預算編列有21億3435萬3千元凍結500萬元這個案子有沒有其他的意見解凍"},{"start":12807.23,"end":12813.533,"text":"好那如果沒有意見那我們就准予動之提報院會那第三案第三案是第6目非營業特種基金預算編列430億3187萬6千元凍結2000萬元有沒有委員有任何的意見"},{"start":12833.37,"end":12862.333,"text":"好,我們請陳佩玉委員我先說啦,我們沒有人要堅持但是還是要再次提醒國科會關於科普列車的擴大辦理啊、特色車廂之前其實也有很多委員提醒過我記得已經委員有提醒過就是不是花很多錢在行銷上然後把那個列車畫得漂漂亮亮可是關於實質的內容或者是如何更把這個科普教育這件事情深入校園或者是做更多的社會溝通這件事情我覺得要請新的主委上任之後相關的政策必須要有一些調整跟改進"},{"start":12862.933,"end":12868.748,"text":"但是在預算的部分我們沒有堅持。謝謝。好,那主委要回應嗎?"},{"start":12870.74,"end":12895.71,"text":"謝謝委員我們會檢討改建好那這個案子我也有一些提醒跟意見就是有關於這個AI我想這個AI現在未來要大家一起是不可忽略的趨勢可是我覺得不只這個所謂的倫理的使用規範我們要來好好的這個研究處理法制面也應該要來做一些規範"},{"start":12897.13,"end":12922.801,"text":"關注AI的合理使用那我想這個也是很大的重點所以我想要敦請國科會應該要制定這個相關的這個法制就是說來不只是發展指引而已應該是說這個整個的法制相關的法制這樣才能讓這個AI的使用未來越法制化我想這點是一個提醒"},{"start":12923.541,"end":12923.561,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":12940.37,"end":12940.55,"text":"解凍案7案"},{"start":12960.925,"end":12965.806,"text":"第4案第4案是第一幕一般行政向下的資訊管理中的資訊服務費預算編列5888萬4千元當初是凍結5%那解凍大家有沒有意見"},{"start":12988.973,"end":13006.979,"text":"那沒有意見我們就足以動之提報院會第5案第5案是有關於新竹科學管理局第4幕原區業務發展編列預算15143萬4千元凍結20萬元大家對於竹科的解凍案有沒有意見"},{"start":13015.12,"end":13043.32,"text":"那如果沒有意見的話那我們就準予動之提報院會第6案有關於中科中科的園區業務發展也是編列一億一千零二十六萬七千元凍結二十萬元對於中科的解凍案有沒有意見那如果沒有意見我們就準予動之提報院會第7案是關於南科"},{"start":13044.341,"end":13047.644,"text":"南科當初的編列預算是1億3430萬8千元,凍結20萬元。對南科的解凍有沒有意見?"},{"start":13056.755,"end":13073.966,"text":"好,沒有意見那本席有一點小小的提醒因為當初會凍結其實就是因為我們有一些租金預期租金沒有收回那我知道你們現在有努力也有收回部分可是好像還是沒有完全所以這個執行的力道再加強再積極一些OK,好"},{"start":13077.602,"end":13092.897,"text":"好,那我們第7案那我們就也諸與眾之提報院會好,那我們7個案子的案子解凍案都處理完畢那我們接著處理臨時提案那處理臨時提案有林建啟的提案林建啟委員在場齁好,那我們請宣讀"},{"start":13103.038,"end":13125.539,"text":"有鑑於前專處跟科技辦公室緊急要求國研院技術提出113年台灣可信任生存式AI大語言模型精進與素養能力推動計畫並安排審查會議該計畫執行期間僅數月編入進議員並趕在主委交接前衝突分配定案完成"},{"start":13126.199,"end":13139.413,"text":"請國家科學對於該計劃始末流程進行解釋是否有突圍堵值之嫌並盡速回覆立法院教育文化委員會提案人林倩琦克之恩、洪孟凱宣讀完畢請國家科學來回答"},{"start":13151.35,"end":13166.975,"text":"這件事情我們同意要來檢討但是是不是我們在用字上面是否有圖例獨持之前我想可不可以刪除這一段那我們答應會在一個月內來回覆"},{"start":13168.479,"end":13183.227,"text":"好,那就是等於是把最後一行字的是否有圖例、獨職之嫌刪掉那並盡速,主委有答應說就是並於一個月內回復立法院、教育及文化委員會好,那我們這個案子就修正通過"},{"start":13191.531,"end":13201.996,"text":"那各提案若委員補簽,那我們請議事委員詳細登載在議事錄,那補簽在我的左手邊好那我們再來接著請賴氏寶委員謝謝主席有請國科會的吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":13224.997,"end":13244.314,"text":"委員好各位好那麼我相信你知道國科會有開發一個這個叫Tide就是AI的OpenAI的台灣版你知不知道現在平均在線上使用的多少人用你們國科會開發的這個相對較的就是ChatGPT"},{"start":13253.431,"end":13274.14,"text":"簽了GPTU你有利用嗎?有有有有用過啦 不常常在用你給個名啦齁 阿你 咱台灣給你開發的TAIDA你有利用嗎?要不會要不會都不知道 你知道沒有啦 我知道你知道TAIDA T-A-I-D-E 我來國家科學才知道阿你國家科學才知道啦齁 阿你知道有幾個人幾個人 幾個人利用 你知道嗎"},{"start":13278.382,"end":13281.064,"text":"多少人?多少人?多少人?多少人?多少人?多少人?"},{"start":13308.178,"end":13309.759,"text":"現下現下現下在在現下我們沒辦法統計但是我們放在那個那個github上面讓大家當現下1萬人啦現上600現下1萬啦"},{"start":13324.406,"end":13345.881,"text":"主委你聽一下 主委啊 這你的業務哩 台獨你的業務哩 人家很普遍地說 全世界有open AI 台灣有台獨 喔 講五大聲而已 你看讚不讚 但是呢 你看喔 我們做學倫的測驗 仔細看我的那個powerpoint 主委啊你看一下 你看一下 你看我"},{"start":13347.279,"end":13376.121,"text":"報告委員我補充一下下載的數目您剛剛提的是下載的數目對啦下載就1萬啦8B的模型現在有3萬多個下載你知不知道台灣有多少人用checked GPT來來來去你處長繼續講我不知道你不知道就讓我告訴你另外一個人講checked GPT有多少人用你知道嗎台灣喔台灣有多少人用你知道嗎你不知道喔"},{"start":13377.864,"end":13386.453,"text":"有四分之一的台灣人口用checkGPT了,四分之一,五百九十一萬左右啦啊人家齁,都沒門檻捏,啊你這支機票貸的都台灣外賺捏,用這個門檻捏"},{"start":13398.039,"end":13421.753,"text":"請問你啊,什麼時候可以變成全民版的,這樣不用去專業教育給別人,路人甲路人椅,只要有手機就可以用,什麼時候?你告訴我,你都不知道耶,你也稍微準備一下,你還沒準備一下?什麼時候可以用啊?什麼時候全民可以用?什麼時候全民可以用啦?不要工程師版,什麼時候啦?講一下。"},{"start":13425.83,"end":13437.342,"text":"我們初期開發的階段是放在下載是希望人家拿去以後可以放在他的APP裡面直接用所以這個數字我們沒辦法統計"},{"start":13438.423,"end":13458.977,"text":"什麼時間可以讓ChatGPT這麼方便變App很簡單的報告委員那他這樣回答我了解就是說現在發展這個Tide他其實是要讓各界專業領域再去訓練他自己專業的模型並不是那種我們叫general AI是讓一般人可以主動使用"},{"start":13460.718,"end":13460.918,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":13481.39,"end":13481.711,"text":"有什麼?衛星"},{"start":13509.229,"end":13513.734,"text":"你沒有一個太空中心你知道嗎?有嗎?我們總共打上去幾顆衛星?16顆幾顆?16顆16在那裡打在那裡發射了在那裡發射大部分都美國"},{"start":13528.291,"end":13530.872,"text":"總共15顆是在美國發射,一顆在法屬圭亞納在赤道附近。"},{"start":13545.959,"end":13548.76,"text":"我所知到的是因為當地居民都不願意啦欸我要插到然後也是扁扁腳這樣噪音什麼之類的"},{"start":13574.243,"end":13597.501,"text":"來跟委員說明一下那個屏東那個蓄海他是學研用的就是做研究用的只有0.9公頃但是現在來講的話無論這個在相公所或是地方的居民我們是說使用的時候都經過他們的一些投票同意的百分之八十以上是同意的小問題我就可以這個要結束了"},{"start":13598.359,"end":13600.869,"text":"我們國艦國造、國機國造、潛艦國造、火箭衛星要不要國造"},{"start":13606.992,"end":13610.135,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":13630.215,"end":13648.664,"text":"你沒有回答我什麼時候可以我們在臺灣自己發射根據我們現在的規劃這是很重要的航太技術全世界很重要的一個指標根據我們現在的規劃是在20302030可以自己在臺灣發包括火箭因為你衛星是火箭設計的衛星我們自己設計製造在臺灣現在沒有問題火箭呢火箭就是到20302030好謝謝"},{"start":13661.061,"end":13674.614,"text":"謝謝賴世保委員我們再來請謝依鳳委員主委請回謝依鳳委員不在請鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在我們再來請范雲委員謝謝召委有請主委有請吳主委"},{"start":13687.661,"end":13689.842,"text":"主委早安先跟您借一兩分鐘因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候居然赫然發現一元之委員他剛還在我想說他最好不要走"},{"start":13702.619,"end":13727.299,"text":"他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次開會零次上政論節目枉顧議員的職責之外來我們立法院剛新任委員我是上一任全勤委員新任委員翹班放棄質詢權被大家指責現在比較收斂一點可是呢"},{"start":13728.379,"end":13746.867,"text":"他居然在我們的立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目我也上過政論節目政論節目也可以嚴謹發言但是他未經查證信口開河栽贓同事言論行為如同網軍這難道不是"},{"start":13748.067,"end":13766.914,"text":"瞄視國會嗎?這種行為才是瞄視國會。好,我今天的主題不是性騷,我講范雲人生沒有任意抹紅過任何人,抹紅,也沒有任意說誰性騷。我人生只有指稱過一位立委性騷,後來就被法院認證,人證、物證齊全,法院認證性騷犯。"},{"start":13771.596,"end":13775.797,"text":"他剛剛說我女權雙標我不敢說我對他黨本黨的做法完全一致我們移警委員可以作證本黨的委員會主委被報導性騷性別歧視的時候我們經過嚴整瞭解發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞我們公開主動要求行政院要調查而且我們說的是調查說的是嫌疑我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯"},{"start":13800.603,"end":13821.969,"text":"後來果然他被刑罪人調查他的確有性別歧視相關的部分就下台了其他的政務委員有相關的事情如果找我我也協助他們該道歉就道歉民進黨的me too事件發生我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度我一直覺得制度比較好可是我們國會的"},{"start":13823.729,"end":13839.876,"text":"憲憑改革民進黨接受的版本葉元芝你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯我非常尊重他因為他們總召的傅昆奇的案子未經調查敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院就是說就是不分黨"},{"start":13840.316,"end":13840.456,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":13860.703,"end":13870.448,"text":"不要罵人家雙標了連標準都沒有連性騷定義都沒有我們回到今天主題我一定要嚴正駁斥剛剛主委我覺得您話沒有講清楚2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學您任教的地方我是跟經濟民主聯合他是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體也是最近非常的擔心我們國會亂象團體那他們發現"},{"start":13889.577,"end":13917.871,"text":"我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題清華海峽研究院他是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府北京清華大學成立的未經政府申報就在清華大學校內的裕城大樓內成立一個辦公室攬財投資引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才竊取技術疑慮"},{"start":13919.852,"end":13943.264,"text":"當今明年開記者會的時候親大校方說未曾知悉您剛剛有回應您當時是校長指派你去的我當年也知道說你不是路人甲您是副校長校長指派你去表示校方知悉所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊我是以副校長不是路人甲"},{"start":13944.404,"end":13960.584,"text":"這件事情我想請問主委我們當時有亂指控嗎請問您這個被指控背後有中國資金中方勢力的這個單位海峽清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運請問主委"},{"start":13962.486,"end":13977.79,"text":"我目前不知道因為...您真的不知道那您真的不關心跟您有關的事目前沒有在營運因為當時也不是我的業務我知道因為那是2016年的事情您當時也...我也收到好幾方人有幫您澄清我說我們針對的是清華您是"},{"start":13980.251,"end":13993.742,"text":"新聞報道就是您是代表校長請你去揭幕那是2016年事情了那您知不知道後來這個自強基金會清大校友會就是這背後的這個台灣的民營團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰"},{"start":13995.916,"end":14010.224,"text":"您也不知道齁?那我告訴你他們有被裁罰齁那您知不知道清華這個齁目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部齁裁罰您也不知道齁?"},{"start":14011.484,"end":14026.637,"text":"根據我跟教育部的確認那教育部的網站也有公告2021年11月8號教育部公告這個清華海峽研究院違反法令請示立即停止其使用並立即撤離為什麼?"},{"start":14028.378,"end":14042.492,"text":"他違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例大陸地區40支二條大陸地區之非營利法人團體或其他機構非經各該主管機關許可不得在台灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構從事業務活動"},{"start":14045.194,"end":14064.903,"text":"這是違法的事我們針對違法的事情我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕參加相關活動說自己不知悉我當天最重的話也只有說清大這樣子校方是不是有說謊公然說謊的嫌疑後來的確證明這個案子他就是違反法令"},{"start":14065.763,"end":14082.048,"text":"就是那他已經沒有在運作經濟部已經裁罰自強基金會教育部也裁罰了清華海峽研究院的執行長我們就不用說他是誰了所以我想這是民間團體跟我做一個教育文化委員會我們有證據說到哪裡然後剛才業員之委員可以"},{"start":14086.049,"end":14106.203,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":14107.031,"end":14132.599,"text":"如何防範國家科學及技術成為中國滲透的工具大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少財閥學術相關的交流對不對因為我們一向尊重大學自主這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情我會去參加那個記者會而且當時主要的證據就是金明聯的研究員講的那我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知曦"},{"start":14133.319,"end":14134.8,"text":"這件事情難道不嚴重嗎?我們看一下美國說要採取小院高牆那他的晶片法案就是都必須要不准在中國擴展然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查外資交易都要有國安審查"},{"start":14152.054,"end":14180.103,"text":"美國最興奉自由市場了連美國都擔心半導體AI生技這些的外資交易要國安審查你就知道台灣是不是在最前線那我們也給大家一點例子就是加拿大今年公佈的敏感技術研究領域點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢所以呢要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織"},{"start":14181.463,"end":14196.831,"text":"離開這些研究組織我們剛講到的清華的例子大家可以看到我們的國立大學都有這樣子的一個我講的是危機了跟不夠敏感了我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做否則就無法獲得聯邦資金您是國科會"},{"start":14198.272,"end":14206.478,"text":"過去的事情我知道您有澄清過了所以我也沒有任何的發言可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種方向風向我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域的研究防中滲透策略那之前我們的前主委"},{"start":14217.105,"end":14222.872,"text":"他非常關心這個議題那也有做出相關的一些機制那他也跟我們報告我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法持續滾動檢討評估"},{"start":14232.262,"end":14253.489,"text":"今天剛好發生業援制就是信口開河的事情是不是主委您可以再談一下您在國家核心關鍵的技術的防中滲透策略在我們前主委的努力下您的看法跟立場是什麼有沒有什麼要積極未來處理的部分"},{"start":14254.629,"end":14267.262,"text":"我們沒有改變態度我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展安全為優先所以在我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循"},{"start":14272.228,"end":14292.146,"text":"政府的政策法令我們都會遵循剛剛范委員所提到的協助我們國內的學術界大學去遵循這些法令限制我們也會努力去做我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸"},{"start":14292.586,"end":14316.025,"text":"但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務"},{"start":14316.926,"end":14336.214,"text":"是,會承諾那也請主委您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中那您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝好,那謝謝主委謝謝委員好,謝謝范雲委員范雲委員加油好,主委請回那我們現在請蔡易餘委員"},{"start":14362.577,"end":14367.445,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請我們國科會吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":14372.731,"end":14401.004,"text":"委員好主委首先先跟你恭喜就任我想這是一個責任我們也希望你可以帶領台灣未來包括我們要推動的所有的國際的信賴產業讓台灣的所有的產業科技面都可以帶走向邁向國際我想要首先就第一個先跟主委來分享日本政府"},{"start":14401.764,"end":14424.984,"text":"為了這一次熊本台積電的設廠他們可以說是役注了很多預算甚至協助台積電在熊本設廠設廠的錢也補助包括周邊的交通周邊的相關的一些產業所需要的大大小小市日本可以說為了台積電設廠"},{"start":14427.966,"end":14435.152,"text":"這個設想的無微不至,用得真好。那所以主委你看到了日本這樣做,那你會有怎樣的想法嗎?"},{"start":14436.584,"end":14460.919,"text":"我感覺非常的高興就是說台灣的科技的實力現在被全球能夠看得到在友善國家的邀請之下我們也鼓勵我們的廠商可以去拓展我們的國際的這個業務能夠把建廠能夠擴散到友好國家也可以協助當地的發展"},{"start":14461.86,"end":14462.5,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":14488.346,"end":14497.478,"text":"議員的一個新台幣那甚至有新聞說如果台積電要在熊本設立二廠的話日本也排版要補助7320億的日元"},{"start":14501.116,"end":14524.081,"text":"來建二廠所以他總計他投入的會高達1.2兆的日元就新台幣2500億所以日本投入了這樣的資源就為了他知道未來半導體加上AI是整個掌握未來的時代的一個脈動跟趨勢那我們台灣呢"},{"start":14526.046,"end":14540.336,"text":"我們要台灣呢?那我們為了台積電他們事實上他們會要跟流台灣那我們要協助台積電在台灣落實好設廠的每一件事情我們有這樣的協助嗎?"},{"start":14541.161,"end":14562.405,"text":"有,我們協助台積電在台灣繼續擴散它的製造基地應該有的協助政府一定都會幫政府都一定會協助嘛一定會協助我現在跟主委分享一件事啦事實上以台積電來說齁他們不用說台積電如果以半導體來說整個半導體我們知道它的原料都是進口的"},{"start":14563.325,"end":14584.59,"text":"那我們台積電或者是所有的半導體廠商他們所生產出來的不管是成熟製程或者是先進製程我們目的就是要出口我們準備看出口的錢那我們現在所有的出口不管是我們的設備原料的進口那跟他們產品的出口我們是靠什麼靠靠哪一種運輸"},{"start":14589.662,"end":14607.43,"text":"出口當然海運空運都有吧應該都是空運吧你如果是晶片當然是空運晶片是空運嗎那原料都不一定原料是不一定那所以咧那如果以現在空運如果我們出口好出口是走空運的話那我們現在空運的機場夠嗎機場要走到空運的空運是OK啦是夠嗎是夠的嗎"},{"start":14619.056,"end":14623.509,"text":"就我所知啦,台灣的空運超過百分之九十都是怕脫穿國際基礎"},{"start":14626.81,"end":14655.345,"text":"是吧?你說既定的數量就對了?對啊,既定的數量,都是怕通風啦。這樣我們南部應該要有就對了,你意思是什麼?啊對啦,好啦好,啊南部,我現在要跟主委說啦,你現在都知道通風啦,我們現在也南部從高雄、台南甚至未來嘉義的封莊,它已經變成一個半導體的聚落基地了。"},{"start":14655.965,"end":14667.806,"text":"那是這些半導體勒他要出口他又要通透過一個很長途的陸運運到了桃園的國際機場然後再轉空運然後運到全世界去"},{"start":14669.487,"end":14692.786,"text":"現在的生態就是這樣那如果日本你看他對他為了要雄本台積電設廠他們可以願意花了這麼多錢只是為了台積電設廠那我們台灣很幸福我們已經有台積電而且台積電持續在我們台灣在佈局那為什麼我們的基礎設施不能因應半導體產業那再來做這個強化勒"},{"start":14695.292,"end":14707.745,"text":"欸這個很好的見解喔我也很希望有啊好啊那主委我學了這件事就麻煩國科會跳進來主導那南部有一個巨規模的喀國機場"},{"start":14709.841,"end":14724.731,"text":"好不管是落腳在哪裡總是要走出這一步對不對那未來我們的不管是原料的進口我們半導體我們所有封測後封裝後的產品要出口是不是我們就需要這樣的"},{"start":14726.276,"end":14749.612,"text":"委員很好的建議我會來報告行政院因為這個國土規劃對我覺得你們真的是好好的去跟行政院去盤整然後甚至可以去詢問所有半導體的這些設備商他們目前他們的運輸的成本最重的是站在哪一塊我相信不是在空運那一端是在入運那一端那為什麼在入運那一端呢就是因為入運距離太長"},{"start":14751.653,"end":14751.933,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":14782.272,"end":14785.676,"text":"主席本席想邀請吳主委好,有請吳主委委員好主委好總統先生宣誓台灣將進駐太空以及發展低軌衛星國會也表示政府會運用台灣的半導體"},{"start":14806.215,"end":14825.585,"text":"以及ICT的產業的優勢來加速推動太空相關的科技那其中包括了低軌的通訊衛星那入軌的這個火箭產業推動與人才培訓國家設廠建置等等"},{"start":14826.785,"end":14850.706,"text":"因此本席要請教主委您可以說是半導體產業的推手那您要怎麼樣帶領著現在您的角色是國科會的主委您要怎麼樣帶領著這個國科會來進軍全球的太空產業尤其我們知道我們在2022年我們制定了太空發展法"},{"start":14853.17,"end":14858.82,"text":"提案2023年國家太空中心改制為行政法人"},{"start":14861.94,"end":14884.31,"text":"在之前我們一直在努力那你對於臺灣呢你認為臺灣在太空這個發展呢會有什麼樣的進展因為本期也看到您曾經主持了全國第一個經濟部學界的科專計劃那你也推動了產學合作這個非常重要"},{"start":14884.93,"end":14900.511,"text":"各項的計轉成果也有豐碩我們也看到這個成果那你未來要怎麼樣繼續的來發揮你的專長尤其在產學合作這一塊是非常重要將經驗跟國科會來相吻合作"},{"start":14901.687,"end":14921.987,"text":"可以怎麼進行呢?好 謝謝委員這個提問很好我正好利用這個機會跟委員報告我們在太空科技的研究除了我們現在的太空中心結合我們學界的力量之外委員提到關心這個議題就是說我們產業的發展如果沒有同步"},{"start":14922.848,"end":14938.485,"text":"您沒有記載沒有用啊沒有同步建立起來的話這個未來要發展光靠政府資源一直不斷投入是不夠的所以我的確會將來會希望我們的太空中心不但是只有結合學術界也一定要結合產業界發展相關的產業謝謝"},{"start":14941.808,"end":14958.395,"text":"這也是你的專業啦,因為你以往在技轉或者是在這個科專的這個部分產學合作跟民間的相關的產業都有密切,所以本身也希望這個國家是大家的。"},{"start":14959.585,"end":14975.673,"text":"民間非常的努力政府的政策如果是方向正確大家這個合作起來引介起來國科會佔了一個非常重要的這個角色所以本期也希望樂觀其成的看到這個我們方向是一致的嘛"},{"start":14976.033,"end":14991.659,"text":"也就是政府部門、國科會跟我們的產業界、跟我們的技術、跟我們的學界大家一起來合作。接下來本席要請教也就是人才的問題因為我們看到四年花了4.1億"},{"start":14993.38,"end":15014.342,"text":"四年花了4.11我們看到半導體創新暨產業新創的高峰論壇像全球的科技人才我們發出了英雄帖一定要摘兵買馬歡迎全球的科技人你可以提出創新的發想來台灣築夢"},{"start":15015.763,"end":15033.195,"text":"但是我們看到我們在留財、攬財、預財方面這個政策4年4.1億我們總共參與者131人留住了多少?留住了多少吳助委你知道嗎?留住了多少人你知道嗎?"},{"start":15035.362,"end":15039.184,"text":"留住了多少人?97人了對啊 我已經open book給你了97人 這個成效你滿意嗎?"},{"start":15039.184,"end":15044.666,"text":"不滿意4.11 4年的時間我們總共參與攬道的只有131人好不容易攬道的131人也只有97人願意留下這個問題該當怎麼辦?部長你有什麼誘因?你有什麼誘因?"},{"start":15065.349,"end":15082.561,"text":"很有可能這些人才來到台灣以後學了更好的技能以後被產業界挖角這個其實也是我們的成果你這樣樂觀其成的看待本行不滿意你的回覆因為這個是嚴肅的議題四年你只有參與的4.1億只有131人"},{"start":15090.606,"end":15113.6,"text":"你還可以開玩笑的說如果他跑到企業你樂觀其成本席跟你討論的是4年4.1億你剛剛回答的是你不滿意這樣的結果所以本席接著問你有什麼方案可以將這個政策可以更精進你今天留不住人才你今天攬不到參與的人"},{"start":15116.089,"end":15125.637,"text":"那我們是不是方向方法要去做調整未來我們的調整應該是要搭配著產業的發展"},{"start":15127.549,"end":15154.003,"text":"學界一直留住人才當然是一個好的事情但是其實現在我們的學生人數在減少那學界是要精英但是我們培育的人才訓練完以後其實是要服務社會要服務產業的所以我是很認真的回答這個問題所以本席給你時間就這個議題你很認真在回答我也希望可以看到你的方向你的"},{"start":15156.264,"end":15177.643,"text":"懶財補助機制你的友善措施要怎麼去結盟請你去盤點然後順便資料給本席好不好這個非常的重要我最後給你一個議題2050年的淨零碳排的這個政策方向是全球也是我們國家的政策我想你也朝這個方向來努力嘛對不對"},{"start":15178.404,"end":15179.065,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":15202.646,"end":15202.886,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":15225.117,"end":15237.821,"text":"可以瞭解我們國科會您的立場到底是什麼?您也順便資料給本席針對於2050年的淨零碳排我們要做的政策方向好不好?您順便資料給本席我們再繼續來討論好謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員主委請回好我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請何欣淳委員"},{"start":15252.032,"end":15254.054,"text":"其實我今天關心一點點時間我關心的是還是人才的問題我們國科會就是為國舉財培養人才是我們國科會不管在各個專業領域科學領域都必須要做的事情"},{"start":15278.172,"end":15281.274,"text":"但是如同剛剛楊委員提到的我們在流財攬財的部分這個400多人為什麼4年裡面只有97人留下我覺得不是楊委員的這樣子的一個想法我覺得吳助委你的回答我覺得也不夠完整"},{"start":15298.806,"end":15314.687,"text":"因為在過去這幾年來我過去有6年在這個12個會期在教育委員會那時候我們關係從這個國科會到科技部到國科會那我們都在講說我們的基礎科學人才的培育到底足不足夠"},{"start":15316.289,"end":15326.556,"text":"我們從內部台灣內部我們自己要培育我們自己的基礎科學人才那我們現在碰到的是少子化的關係所以呢我們的基礎科學人才呢在這幾年來是不夠的是不夠的而這個不夠會影響到什麼影響到未來各個專業領域各個科學領域他們的在從進階的一個研究或者是發展他都會受到影響"},{"start":15341.887,"end":15364.746,"text":"這是台灣未來我們必須要認真嚴肅去面對的一個問題第二個問題我們才會說除了我們自己國內的這個基礎科學人才從小到大我們如何在這個教育正規教育體系裡面或者是在高階的研究領域裡面我們如何培訓怎麼去盤點怎麼去檢討那第二個我們如何引進國外的人才"},{"start":15365.97,"end":15367.651,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":15386.585,"end":15409.838,"text":"給了這樣的政策方向所以呢才會有這個所謂的國外學人呢或是國外的科學家可以來到台灣我們希望留下他但是目前為止我認為為什麼只有97人留下第一個新知福祉我們是不是可以比得上國外的學術單位研究單位這第一個主委你自己應該也知道啦為什麼會留不住"},{"start":15412.265,"end":15433.107,"text":"第二、我們國內的研究環境是否足以提供這些國外的學者或者是呢甚至我們當時候認為說全世界如果有華人學者是願意選擇台灣來做他的研究基礎我們都展開雙臂來歡迎他但是為什麼他留不下來"},{"start":15434.799,"end":15463.505,"text":"二、除了薪資扶植之外在於他的生活他的家庭能不能在台灣落地生根而這些都必須要由國科會我們自己主動跨部會的去盤點去爬輸出問題要怎麼去解決要去爭取讓這個機制能夠更好讓更多的國外的人才願意選擇台灣作為他們研究基礎的安心安身立命的地方主委"},{"start":15465.236,"end":15487.437,"text":"我希望你能夠承諾我們好好地去盤點而不是說這是為產業所用如果我們留下的人才可以為國內的產業界所用我也很高興啊可是我們到目前為止這個97人留下是不夠好的這是不真的事實嘛就表示這個有出了一些問題嘛那問題在哪裡我們能不能解決嘛來 諸位"},{"start":15489.245,"end":15505.906,"text":"我們會檢視一下看看問題是在哪裡當然我們留在學術界的人力不一定要太多啦因為我們產業需求非常的高而且在產業發展的話它的待遇比在學術界高很多這是不爭的事實我知道啊"},{"start":15507.808,"end":15522.324,"text":"但是如何以國科會為國舉財為國培育人才的這個角色裡面欸你想一下有那麼多那麼多的這個高端專業非常高科技的這些研究各單位欸你認為你們的人才就夠了嗎"},{"start":15525.477,"end":15547.372,"text":"當然不夠啦但是我們的預算還是有限我們預算有限實在也很難靠政府的力量一直擴充我當然知道預算有限啦我現在是說我們要為國家培育這些基礎科學的人才或者是其他各領域的高端的高科技的這些科學人才而我們國科會是有這個責任因為國科會必須為我們政府"},{"start":15551.455,"end":15566.681,"text":"第11個有現在有未來甚至有潛在性有遠見的一個科技政策這個科技政策呢不是只有科技計畫而已他還包括科技人才的培育"},{"start":15567.541,"end":15588.261,"text":"是這個是台灣國立之所在啊那尤其在面臨現在的少子化的現在我們如何去做一個精進調整我覺得我事實上剛剛楊委員在問的時候我期待吳主委能夠提供一個更紅光更有一個時程性的或者是有階段性的有"},{"start":15589.022,"end":15593.466,"text":"我期待的是這個當然呢我希望國科會在做這些事的時候不僅僅是為了我們自己國內的科學學界在做不是為了國科會自己在做當然也是為了產業界在做啊是不是主委我期待啦好不好"},{"start":15615.025,"end":15631.515,"text":"希望會後我可以提到一個比較完整的吳主委你的想法在你主政之下的國科會可以對我們各個領域的基礎科學也好各個不同階段的科學的研究的一個人才的培育我希望能夠有一個藍圖好不好謝謝謝謝何欣淳委員主委請回我們接下來請邱志偉委員"},{"start":15647.196,"end":15674.199,"text":"首先感謝跟肯定主席在這邊發言還有4分鐘比在院會發言還長院會發言只有3分鐘本席得票有12萬多只給我3分鐘針對立法院執行刑事法那今天在這邊4分鐘還是比院會發言時間還長但是我知道這個主席會給我4加N分鐘"},{"start":15675.922,"end":15679.725,"text":"有請國科會吳主委南科管理局書局長有請吳主委還有書局長三個園區管理局"},{"start":15689.203,"end":15708.728,"text":"目前營業額最高是哪一個園區?南科大概一兆五千多億超越竹科、超越松科目前三個園區管理局的預算跟人力配置是哪一個局最少?南科很奇怪產值最高、轄區最廣"},{"start":15711.909,"end":15735.637,"text":"南科之外還有高雄科學園區高雄科學園區包括路竹包括橋頭未來還有嘉義再來屏東我會來檢測我來檢測啦人不夠人吳誠又不夠要產生他管是啦不是要台灣要均衡嗎是是是總統說台灣要均衡均衡台灣總統有交代了總統有交代所以我會來爭取你從人力從預算就要增加"},{"start":15737.721,"end":15763.522,"text":"從夏威夷要審預算,我希望夏威夷就可以立竿見影,可以嗎?好,謝謝委員支持。你平平點頭啊。好,謝謝委員支持。一定要預算反映出來喔。那個,市長,你們有話要說?他一定同意的,他一定同意的。你們有苦呢?你們要訴苦一下呢?沒有啊?辛苦啦齁,人家管那麼多圓曲圓曲真的是不簡單啦。還是要努力啊。"},{"start":15765.884,"end":15785.243,"text":"海外設置科學園區把科學園區的這個我們成功的經驗這個模式來到海外那當然郭志輝這個部長也有這個概念對不對最有可能成型的是哪一個區域東北亞的日本韓國還是東南亞的越南還是哪些國家"},{"start":15786.448,"end":15805.331,"text":"我想日本他們自己在經營園區已經很有經驗了大概不需要我們協助啦日本反而需要耶日本需要我們的廠商進駐是啊那我們去把這個海外台灣的這個科學園區啦科學園區的海外版啦"},{"start":15806.201,"end":15806.221,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":15829.54,"end":15847.076,"text":"日本政府願意學習台灣經驗,我們當然很樂意。據我瞭解,郭部長也跟他們接觸過,他們是很有意願。也不是相對於本州或者是四國。九州的條件,第一個離台灣近。"},{"start":15850.034,"end":15857.59,"text":"二、販毒體的產業鏈慢慢逐漸在形成因為台積電的效應嘛除了日本之外東南亞"},{"start":15858.697,"end":15884.302,"text":"哪一個國家比較可能複製台灣的海外版的科學園區?其實我們目前已經有協助民間業者到印度去經營這個...印度,印度的勞動力充沛,而且相關的半導體相關能財也多。除了印度之外,越南有沒有可能?越南其實也是一個我們設想中有可能的國家。所以這個概念很好,那怎麼要具體落實?"},{"start":15885.582,"end":15908.263,"text":"僅要有一個詳細的計畫然後執行的時程然後別人相關的預算所以我會跟經濟部這邊來合作那另外就是喬科正在如火如荼在興建那招商都非常好現在已經規劃第2期了那個部長主委有沒有去過喬科"},{"start":15909.582,"end":15913.104,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":15929.492,"end":15954.266,"text":"所以也是世界半導體的重鎮所以未來發展是非常重要所以我希望說主委能夠有時間去看一下也給我們這個南科的相關同仁加油鼓勵打氣一下好 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白麗珍局長勞動基金運用局 蘇玉清局長職業安全衛生署 周子蓮署長勞動及職業安全衛生研究所 李伯昌所長綜合規劃司 王厚誠司長勞動關係司 王厚維司長勞動保險司 陳美女司長勞動福祉退休司 謝倩倩司長"},{"start":1804.826,"end":1819.651,"text":"勞動條件及就業平等司黃惟琛司長勞動法務副惠之司長秘書處丁玉珍處長人事處江碧玲處長政風處邱鴻達處長會計處林美信處長統計處梅嘉源處長資訊處劉淳坤"},{"start":1832.639,"end":1840.545,"text":"處長財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心何俊傑執行長好那接下來請勞動部何部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":1853.519,"end":1877.077,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場的各位女士先生以及我們直播線上的朋友很高興今天有這個機會能接受我們衛華委員會的邀請來向大院來做報告那麼今天是我的首度的備詢我也要在這裡首先我要感謝我的前任許民春部長"},{"start":1877.877,"end":1895.33,"text":"給我留下了一個非常好的基礎那麼在我們在座的各位同仁的努力下他們讓我很安心的上路那麼我接下來要向各位委員報告我未來的這個工作的重點首先呢在我們0403的這個地震的這個造成的傷害是我們所有台灣人民的痛那麼我們為了協助花蓮災區的勞工朋友"},{"start":1907.838,"end":1917.245,"text":"勞動部有提出了包括勞保保費減免跟傷病給付災區就業補助、僱用獎助以及訓練獎勵跟保費補貼這樣的措施協助花蓮地區的勞工朋友度過難關裡面我要特別強調的是關於僱用獎助以及保費補貼這兩樣都是特別的為我們震災的花蓮朋友而提出的"},{"start":1932.877,"end":1934.359,"text":"那麼我們動用的就業安定基金大概4.6億然後給這一個雇用獎助希望能夠協助業者以及這一個勞動者一起度過難關"},{"start":1945.069,"end":1966.922,"text":"那麼再來我想要跟各位委員強調各位關切這個勞保財務改革的問題那剛剛我也已經有回答媒體的提問那總統在520的就職演說有明白的揭示只要政府在勞保絕對不可能倒"},{"start":1968.623,"end":1976.132,"text":"他的內涵就是說政府執政,我們會發展經濟,致力於發展經濟,確保足夠的財政能力,然後對勞保進行挹注跟撥補。"},{"start":1984.011,"end":1997.733,"text":"那麼這個就是所謂我們有很多朋友在關切那這樣要不要修法呢?要不要把撥補入法呢?事實上這就是撥補入法裡面的政府負最終支付責任的實踐"},{"start":1999.555,"end":2004.042,"text":"所以這個其實已經做4年了那麼在這從2020到2024這4年來我們撥補了2670億基金水位來到9941億的創新高"},{"start":2014.819,"end":2020.245,"text":"所以我們所有的勞工朋友真的不要擔心,勞保絕對不會破產,而且勞保現在財務相對穩健所以請各位勞工朋友能夠千萬的放心,總統所承諾的只要政府在,勞保絕對不可能倒"},{"start":2036.801,"end":2044.868,"text":"那麼其實我要跟各位強調我們在第三季會召開最低工資審議委員會因為今年是最低工資法通過的元年我們也會很快的來召開諮詢會議然後會呈報決定最低工資的條幅那麼來報請行政院核定以後實施"},{"start":2059.039,"end":2065.844,"text":"然後呢我們也會落實賴總統的雙就業雙照顧的生養環境友善生養環境的政策那麼這個就是指我們所謂的育嬰留庭或者以及研議未來可能的照顧留庭我們進一步來把它做一個更有效的結合然後可以讓我們的這個雙新家庭還有包括我們想要生養小孩的這個年輕人都可以獲得更有效的照顧"},{"start":2090.12,"end":2100.569,"text":"其實我們為了回應全球永續發展跟國際淨零排放的目標,我們會跟金管會合作,把一系列的勞權指標納入金管會的"},{"start":2105.373,"end":2129.132,"text":"把企業併購對員工權益的保障除了透過跨部會合作也會列入併購審查的項目那麼這個部分我們會來跟金管會來積極的一起討論再次我們面對缺工的問題我們這也會建立這個跨部會的合作機制我要強調缺工不等於低薪我希望能夠先充斥我們國內的這一個本土的婦女"},{"start":2134.076,"end":2159.232,"text":"以及中高齡還有我們青年的這個就業率那麼在這個在這個前提下呢我們會檢討法規鬆綁雇主聘雇移工資格的條件及人數比例也會推動移工留才久用方案把移工轉化為中階技術人力進一步擴大同時規劃修法讓橋外生跟個人工作許可留台工作"},{"start":2159.992,"end":2174.895,"text":"那麼以上呢我還有很多其他的需要報告的地方那麼可以請委員來參考我們的業務的書面報告那麼也很謝謝還有包括我最後給給我一點時間強調我要推動這個勞政友善化措施這個就是我們希望能夠讓行動AI內閣他能夠落實在我們每一個施政項目裡面然後讓我們廣大的勞工朋友有感那麼以上我們會建立"},{"start":2188.519,"end":2198.879,"text":"公共平臺、廣大民意、也擴大民眾的參與。行速行動創新的AI團隊為提升勞工的福祉而努力。以上的報告藉請各位委員指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2204.979,"end":2232.492,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案"},{"start":2232.972,"end":2236.734,"text":"那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言及有請部長請何部長"},{"start":2248.575,"end":2249.236,"text":"平均值和中位數"},{"start":2265.536,"end":2265.576,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":2288.514,"end":2299.873,"text":"那我們就算不算口試委員然後想請教部長您的論文題目想好了嗎?就是您就任這個部長之後您覺得自己最重要的任務是什麼?"},{"start":2301.612,"end":2328.943,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛我的業務報告有一定程度的呈現了我的這一個施政的項目施政的這個重點那麼對時間不夠讓部長來做充分報告那之前有一個民調有調查那個賴清德總統就是人民期待賴清德政府能夠做的優先做的解決的一些問題其中有三件跟勞動議題是相關的第一個就是解決長期的薪資停滯"},{"start":2330.964,"end":2351.613,"text":"議員．"},{"start":2353.332,"end":2354.293,"text":"強化低薪的部分"},{"start":2383.512,"end":2399.201,"text":"我們希望能夠呼籲企業能夠在這方面落實所以在跟金管會我剛剛有提到您講的那個金管會那部分就是說我們可以會跟金管會合作然後要求上市櫃公司揭露這些薪資的標準跟報酬"},{"start":2401.623,"end":2427.365,"text":"我們本黨可能近期也會提出所謂七月三法就是有獲利的上市公使可能要做這個部分那部長5月初我們剛結束那個臺美貿易協定的這個第二階段的談判那我想您了解其中有關勞動議題的部分很受重視那美國是希望臺灣要能夠禁止輸入有強迫勞動所製造的這個產品那如果在國內發現的話就必須下架那請問勞動部有沒有開始去盤點"},{"start":2429.066,"end":2433.789,"text":"我們進口品當中有哪些是屬於這個所謂強迫勞動產出的產品是委員報告喔勞動部本身有在做跟移民所合作研究計畫正在研究什麼是強迫勞動產品事實上根據我的瞭解喔這個強迫勞動產品的清單應該是可能是必須美方提供啦而不是我方所以這個"},{"start":2456.864,"end":2477.677,"text":"對,所以這個部分未來因為台美這個談判還在持續中事實上他們6月才剛離開那當然等一下我會提到國內部分因為我覺得這個緊張的瞭解不只是說為了幫助這個台美貿易協定的進行另外一方面也讓我們國人能夠有預先準備到底哪一些產品是屬於這個部分我們要準備替代品嘛"},{"start":2479.058,"end":2496.199,"text":"我們也要避免在這個執行所謂強迫勞動產品認定的過程裡面去引發不必要的民怨你知道台灣本身也有強迫勞動的問題因為美國國務院人權報告就指出台灣仲介向移工收取費用"},{"start":2497.201,"end":2499.543,"text":"這就是用強迫勞動的他們的定義強迫勞動那因為美國勞動部的這個同工跟所謂的這個強迫勞動製品名單臺灣的漁獲漁獲的這個部分也被列為強迫勞動所得的這個產品那我知道這個遠洋漁工是屬於農業部來管理的"},{"start":2515.103,"end":2535.639,"text":"但是監察院也提出過報告那行政院也有指示就是說是不是要做跨部會勞動部也要參與這個部分因為這些遠洋漁工他們的權益跟勞基法有相當的這個距離那所以勞動部可能也是責無旁貸啦那對於漁工重借費收取重借費不曉得部長您的想法是什麼"},{"start":2536.5,"end":2550.794,"text":"是我們很努力的在因為這是來源國的問題因為漁工收取仲介費基本上是在我講的是臺灣的仲介收取的部分因為他們據說我們是唯一的一個國家有收取這樣的費用"},{"start":2552.116,"end":2561.005,"text":"我們的定義是你有服務才能收費啦所以那不是那並不是必要而且是他們雙方合意的所以我本本我們是強烈的建議齁是不是應該這個修法禁止仲介"},{"start":2569.694,"end":2594.135,"text":"像移工收取服務費這是美國國務院的建議啦那如果我們繼續這樣做還是可能影響臺美貿易協定的一個繼續的那個進度嘛所以部長至少是不是能夠承諾一下回去研究一下其他國家其他國家哪些會跟臺灣一樣重借會跟移工收取服務費那另外一個就取消如果取消這個服務費會有什麼影響我們可以就取消會有什麼影響那是不是請勞動部可以做個書面報告"},{"start":2595.276,"end":2600.76,"text":"好提供我們好謝謝那部長您接任這個勞動部部長消息傳來當然某一些勞動團體他們有反彈因為他們當時認為就是說所謂的在他們眼中是個惡法勞基法是惡法但他們認為您是幕後推手但是很多人也不知道其實"},{"start":2615.071,"end":2636.153,"text":"您當年曾經積極參加勞工運動帶著工人前往勞委會衝撞然後跟警方發生衝突還因此被判刑您是創下學生參與社會運動第一個被判刑的這個例子雖然最後是緩刑所以我相信勞工仍然是你心中最軟的一塊那也有人說"},{"start":2637.494,"end":2660.788,"text":"就是這個勞工是你血液中的DNA啦那我希望部長就是在您的任期當中能夠努力的推動對勞工權益有幫助的一個法案我覺得您這個表現如果你有好的表現的話那未來就是說這些所謂的質疑它是一個平反的這個機會不曉得部長您對這個部分的想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":2662.308,"end":2669.571,"text":"謝謝委員您很了解我對那就是說因為我確實35年前曾經有這樣子的一個經驗那麼不過因為當時是年輕那麼有這個當時的人道關懷那麼現在我一樣會秉持我的人道關懷對我們勞工朋友做最大的施政努力這一點請您放100個心我覺得對"},{"start":2686.716,"end":2693.681,"text":"那關於那個勞基法二修那一件事情呢事實上我想當時的勞動朋友們可能有些誤解那因為我們在修法的過程裡面其實並沒有修惡我們只是讓他有彈性那事實上這部法律經過修法後但現在已經運作6年了事實上也運作得很好那麼我們的經濟到現在才可以這麼創新高那麼勞工的朋友的薪資跟工時其實都是相對更好"},{"start":2716.497,"end":2717.518,"text":"接下來請林岳晴委員發言"},{"start":2751.476,"end":2754.497,"text":"有請我們的何部長請何部長委員好何部長好恭喜你進入到我們的中央行政部門我自己來自民間團體那也一直在關心兒少那也想先對部長有些期許因為少子化本來就是一個國安問題的"},{"start":2777.068,"end":2806.03,"text":"那過去我們在民間一直在倡導說少子化的對應政策裡邊年輕人碰到高工時低薪高房價那剛剛部長有講說未來還是會持續延續著我們過去的蔡總統的政策裡邊會把那個基本工資再往上調可是但也期許除了薪資以外年輕人要生養小孩很重要的可能還要考慮的會是你的配套措施因為過去一直在講給育兒津貼嗎"},{"start":2806.97,"end":2836.2,"text":"還有很大的部分是在於我剛剛提的像高工時這一塊你剛剛解決低薪格高工時甚至搭配的措施像育嬰價甚至有的國家事實上對產價因為他一次不同而有不同的產價那還有彈性工時跟企圖這都是期待部長未來在你的任內是不是應該讓我們進一步少子化的一些課題事實上透過這些的"},{"start":2837.391,"end":2845.799,"text":"一切相關的制度來讓他真的事實上更能夠有心力來生養小孩今天就要向來問因為移工"},{"start":2849.048,"end":2872.634,"text":"的一些問題就是二月十六號事實上簽了那個台英的MOU那這之後呢就受到了非常多的不同的聲音十一月就去年十一月大家就有人在公共政策平台裏邊提出反對的反對那四月份呢又移工團體呢事實上他不反對可是呢希望能夠執聘"},{"start":2874.431,"end":2880.521,"text":"後來也有僱主團體明確表示說希望我們的看護工可以作為引進的事辦對象"},{"start":2884.504,"end":2911.754,"text":"在台印的那個MOU裡邊總共簽訂的協議面容大13條那其中有兩個事實上就是在簡化勞工的聘僱程序跟推動直接聘僱這兩項可是我們看到職聘從96年開辦一路以來一直往下因為它只剩下收件的功能所以從105年之後下滑到去年只剩下5700件只剩下收件的"},{"start":2912.194,"end":2940.14,"text":"一個功能所在下一頁所以想先問部長就是說這個執聘政策看起來事實上是一個很失敗的政策可是勞動部在台印的MOU裡面還是把它列入所以想問政府是不是有沒有要在這個台英合作上去振興執聘的好方法有沒有想到"},{"start":2941.643,"end":2955.181,"text":"對,是,委員我了解這個我也把這個列為是我上任以後最重要的工作執聘的這個有效率化跟友善化將是我最重要的施政重點之一因為太多的僱主他們想要自己聘"},{"start":2959.286,"end":2977.907,"text":"可是反鎖的文書作業確實讓大家都覺得很無力喔那麼尤其害我們讓應該要推動的移工朋友也可以自己申請喔這都可以減緩不必要的這種移工的這樣子的一個對他的在勞動環境條件上的改善喔那"},{"start":2979.128,"end":3006.297,"text":"我想在這個部分我們你們前陣子有去親身看過職聘中心我們的署長他也有規劃了未來可以線上申辦5天之內就可以拿到件就可以拿到件他有已經有做出這樣子的因為正在使用者的角度上來看的話那你像這樣子的一個要跟這麼多的齁"},{"start":3007.808,"end":3036.142,"text":"中央部會然後呢地方那所涉及單位大家至少就5個而且拼護過程當中要使用要簽的相關的文件大家就41件相較下我們其他的各種的拼護關係都沒有這麼樣的一個繁瑣所以想問部長就是在93年公布這個顧主拼護外國人許可及管理辦法到20年了"},{"start":3036.542,"end":3056.3,"text":"那這些的程序簡化了嗎?是。這就是現在要去努力的目標。那我們就期待。謝謝委員這一個提供。是是是,真的非常重要。為什麼?因為很麻煩呢,大家就是找仲介啦。可是我覺得仲介的費用這看起來事實上是政府的一些收費標準。"},{"start":3059.682,"end":3075.791,"text":"可是到底他們真的只有這些費用嗎?家庭內的僱主抱著手上的一個名額常常受制於我們的仲介提出來的條件像買工費又稱為挑工費"},{"start":3076.687,"end":3076.707,"text":"委員．"},{"start":3102.492,"end":3128.81,"text":"具備足夠的代表性所以本期要求在評鑑委員的邀請上應該要同時兼顧我剛剛講的這挑工費一般的如果沒有碰到的你根本大家也不太知道那現在有很多的相關的民間團體是不是他們有使用的經驗成了一個民間團體的時候他們有相對的很多的資訊因為都是他們自己親身碰到的是不是"},{"start":3129.631,"end":3154.837,"text":"才有辦法有能力把我們不良的那個仲介把它汰換掉我不知道部長是不是同意針對你的平健委員應該要考慮到多元性可以可以這個謝謝委員其實現在已經有邀請可是我認為應該還可以再更強化外部委員的監督讓他們來加入這樣子這個我們會跟署長一起來研究然後我們來盡快來處理這樣子"},{"start":3157.177,"end":3180.626,"text":"對,我不是讓政府一些公佈的收費標準以外還要去增加僱主的負擔我覺得這是政府要去做把關的事實上這是違法的可是當然在查緝上是不是很有利呢這個確實我們必須要來深刻檢討就是希望你們趕快內部針對這個還要評鑑制度也要去做"},{"start":3181.912,"end":3182.553,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3203.497,"end":3222.891,"text":"我完全沒有看過這個人而且完全依賴仲介給我的這樣的一個第三方來做這樣的一個撮合所以本期要求勞動部是不是可以架設一個提供給雇主"},{"start":3223.391,"end":3232.26,"text":"一共在求才求職時得以免費使用的公共面試平台而且能夠附同步的翻譯功能"},{"start":3232.83,"end":3258.832,"text":"跟履歷、徵材、資訊相互傳遞功能不管是境外或境外的一個聘僱跟境內的承接都要開放使用那讓有助於兩邊的合作關係因為畢竟他們是要長時間相處的我不知道部長這個訴求你可以可以而且現在正在研究要做了但什麼時間會是在什麼時候"},{"start":3259.833,"end":3269.595,"text":"市長你覺得呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在已經要提出一個經濟問題,這個部分已經納入我們大概希望因為透過系統的開發或許在下半年我們盡早來對抗"},{"start":3271.28,"end":3296.426,"text":"下半年大概年底有機會嗎還是要這個我們會越快越好因為它涉及到這個系統的開發我們最慢年底前一定可以完成下個會期的時候是不是可以提出初步的一些相關的對應的一些方向這沒有問題這我們會提出好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝林月琴委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3306.795,"end":3310.399,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員大家早安大家好我也請何部長請何部長"},{"start":3315.114,"end":3337.763,"text":"何部長首先恭喜你也很謝謝昨天你有到我辦公室我們一起交流了很多議題謝謝那昨天非常非常多委員會也有稍微提到一點國會改革啊藐視國會啊也有人問了吃早餐等等這都不是本席要問的本席其實要為您表達是很敬佩因為這是您12年前曾經說過的可以幫我播一下"},{"start":3343.858,"end":3344.939,"text":"所以部長12年前參與一個改造國會終結亂象的研討會"},{"start":3364.321,"end":3379.307,"text":"曾經說過現在國會最大的問題是被壓抑弱化的跟行政院立法局一樣可是我們今天看到的是執政黨不斷想盡方法的阻撓議事進行所以我也很想知道部長您當時因為剛剛"},{"start":3380.948,"end":3399.251,"text":"林月琴委員、陳昭志委員也很關心您是公寓人士出身可是後來可能有一些爭議因此現在很多民團也對您就任有一些不同的看法本席也很想知道說您是不是還令我欽佩支持12年前您對於國會改革的支持呢?"},{"start":3402.332,"end":3425.468,"text":"委員跟您報告12年前那個時候我還是立法院的助理那時候我對就是還在總召的辦公室擔任助理那麼我受邀這個民間的智庫基金會然後來講這個國會改革的議題所以您的意思是說這可能也不是您心中真正的想法是因為當時助理的角色必須如此"},{"start":3425.868,"end":3426.008,"text":"我們看下一張"},{"start":3452.597,"end":3468.165,"text":"昨天有非常多委員會有跟互相官員們交流有關於未來假使有藐視國會罪這件事情我們應該要怎麼樣去定義它但本席絕對不會去質詢比如說吃早餐這樣子的議題不過這是"},{"start":3470.166,"end":3491.369,"text":"之前呢李淑芬委員在第9屆的時候跟您在這個委員會這個場地所進行的爭執當時李淑芬委員說您藐視國會那現在他是11屆的委員所以本席很希望說我們這個委員會在這個會期還有您在上任的時間都還是可以維持平靜我們也是看一下當時的影片"},{"start":3500.436,"end":3505.296,"text":"那個時候我也會是勞工階級哇這個話講得很好那到底他怎麼回事我們看一下"},{"start":3507.097,"end":3523.143,"text":"勞基法修法,民進黨內部很火爆這兩個哪一個先出?這邊知恩其身,不見其人一度還讓宣讀議事的趙偉停下來看看發生什麼事原來吵架的是民進黨"},{"start":3534.093,"end":3557.548,"text":"當天因為主席、官員、委員全部都是同黨所以就不便處理啦否則當時林委員是很堅持您是藐視國會所以我想承諾說請部長承諾我們是不是在這一個上任的期間都可以保持理性面對不要再發生類似這樣第9屆的對嗆事件了"},{"start":3558.429,"end":3567.526,"text":"您放心當然一定是這樣謝謝對因為林淑芬委員還在啊我跟她也非常好啦沒有問題謝謝謝謝好下一張"},{"start":3570.812,"end":3587.432,"text":"這次賴總統在宣誓就職的時候呢很大一個重點是我們全國勞工關心的他說只要政府在勞保絕對不會倒結果呢隔天勞保局經過一次的精算報告指出呢2023年底勞保基金精算負債13兆"},{"start":3588.914,"end":3590.755,"text":"一千五百億元已經是極限了"},{"start":3615.231,"end":3627.665,"text":"再來撥補的方式只是治標不治本這個你也同意嗎昨天我們有交流了一下所以我想請問說民進黨勞保改革喊了8年年金改革也已經砍完了可是攸關千萬勞工的勞保改革我們什麼時候會啟動你在這邊可以給人民一個答案嗎"},{"start":3637.515,"end":3663.749,"text":"跟我演報告,我剛剛在業務報告還有那個媒體回答的時候已經講得很清楚,就是說波普就是改革,我們已經進行改革4年了而且改革到現在基金水位創新高目前老闆財務相對穩健,絕對沒有破產的問題你昨天交流的時候有講到一個狀況,就是只要不要所有的人一起去提領"},{"start":3664.489,"end":3678.117,"text":"是 這就是所謂的潛藏負債的定義啦 我想一般社會大眾不是很了解潛藏負債的意思喔 潛藏負債不是負債 它是可能發生的幾負責任而已我們很難去保證 您也不可能去保證說 不會有全部的人同時去提領的狀況嗎 是吧"},{"start":3691.002,"end":3712.774,"text":"這是實務上真的是不可能這樣發生的,這是真的,你絕對不可能,因為這是我們寶寶寶有一千零五十萬人,不可能一千零五十萬人全部都在同一個時間去領所以我們現在你的意思是說撥補也是改革的一環,但你還會有除了撥補以外的其他改革做法嗎?我們努力來開源啦"},{"start":3714.315,"end":3714.475,"text":"好,我們下一張"},{"start":3725.081,"end":3752.793,"text":"這個小子女話昨天您來交流的時候說很多的業務其實是衛福部的業務但其實啦這邊要告訴您光是13項的主要工作中勞動部就佔了7項包括準公共機制兩歲以上月的津貼彈性工時推廣新型態的職場托育提升雇主辦理托兒措施加強產業聚落提供托兒服務還有促進這個補給入室啊等等的"},{"start":3754.093,"end":3782.104,"text":"我想要請教一下部長因為小子女化這個已經是刻不容緩的問題我明年度我們可能會推出我國小子女化對策計畫2.0勞動部可以有哪些新的多出來的政策紅利嗎因為您在講這些希望民間機構也可以一起參與開辦彈性育兒育兒工時等等的這些真的是要給人家誘因啊你沒有給人家誘因的話誰要做這件事情"},{"start":3783.084,"end":3811.602,"text":"是委員就是目前我們正在事辦御殷留庭彈性化對那麼這個是一個很重要的概念就是未來你可能可以用一用小時去請或是一天去請這樣子而不是一個快狀一定要請那麼久也可以方便他回到職場我們需要能夠把它進一步落實不是只有事辦而已那麼需要倡導更多企業這個是您的主要那其他的你有沒有多出來的政策紅利要再"},{"start":3812.563,"end":3813.023,"text":"下一張下一張"},{"start":3831.876,"end":3857.154,"text":"2012年發生的這個勞動基金弊案經過10年後2022年勞動部發出了官方訊息說追回7157萬元不罰所得但是至今還有陳姓經理人還有前所屬的頭姓3.9億餘人目前尚未追回請問你就任之後對於這個3.9億元我們全國人民的錢就任以後追討的規劃為何呢"},{"start":3859.197,"end":3860.341,"text":"我讓基金局的數據長來答覆"},{"start":3861.943,"end":3889.389,"text":"委員好就有關您剛剛所提到的個案我們已經上訴到最高法院最高法院也有判已經有退回到高等法院再重新來審查目前我們正在高院審查中那我們這個案子其他的部分我們都已經追回了希望這4年的任期我們可以把這3.9億人追回是是是好但是呢我們看一下下一頁行政院有修正了中央廉政委員會設置要點"},{"start":3891.229,"end":3906.649,"text":"好這個是行政院長親自主持的比如經濟部長、內政部長、交通部長、NCC、教育部長幾乎都是構成機關之一為什麼勞動部會被排除在外?經過我們剛剛的弊案不是很應該勞動部也要參加中央廉政委員會的組織架構當中嗎?"},{"start":3910.943,"end":3922.388,"text":"謝謝委員提醒了我我倒真的還不大瞭解我可以容我向行政院瞭解一下狀況再回答您可以在原則上同意我應該您會申請勞動部也一起加入吧好我來研究處理然後跟您報告好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":3933.086,"end":3953.933,"text":"最後我們來講到您是供應人士出身的但是這個後來都有一些勞團認為您是站在資方的立場我也想請教您除了五缺缺地缺電缺水缺工缺財請問勞動部對於企業五缺未來的政策走向最重要的是什麼"},{"start":3955.789,"end":3973.577,"text":"我想比較重要的是我們先開發本土的勞動力尤其我們婦女的勞參率還偏低還有中高齡這個部分我們優先來處理最後一張我們給您一個建議其實剛剛很多委員也已經提到了勞工最在乎的是缺錢"},{"start":3975.023,"end":3983.75,"text":"所以這絕對的低薪普遍化如果繼續下去會習慣成自然根據112年組計總數統計有408萬人月薪是不超過4.3萬元令人無法理解的是"},{"start":3992.157,"end":4020.188,"text":"世界最有錢的排名台灣居然人均所得是230萬元是世界第12名所以勞動部最大的任務也希望可以納入幫我們的貧富差距縮短因為他目前正在持續的擴大中所以除了性別還有低薪的這個窘境我都希望勞動部可不可以針對就業服務法進行大修把一個月內將修法的方向提供給我們參考呢"},{"start":4021.888,"end":4036.152,"text":"委員就業服務法確實應該要來全盤檢視不過要跟您報告就業服務法也是一個大工程容我有時間好好跟您報告好嗎謝謝好我們會未來繼續追這個議題謝謝謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請盧憲一委員發言"},{"start":4050.684,"end":4051.305,"text":"勞工 勞工 勞工 勞工"},{"start":4076.415,"end":4104.381,"text":"是請委員開示也是生孩子的生生產的意思也就是費盡千辛萬苦的人叫labor所以你時時刻刻都要想到勞工是費盡千辛萬苦的人當然當然我們先看到第8頁的那個報告裡面齁那兩那個我們的勞動參與率那我們國人是這樣那我們原住民你知道嗎是原住民的男性是參與率是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":4106.121,"end":4134.888,"text":"第8月,原住民是將近70男性那平均的話是將近62、63那邊也就是說都高於國人那我們再看到第6月我剛剛早上仔細看了你的報告了所以大概我看一下還有第5月那我們的失業率是多少你知道嗎現在大概3%上下沒有我們的你看到我就要想到原住民是不好意思"},{"start":4138.051,"end":4147.962,"text":"實質上現在原住民現在的失業率已經降到跟一般國民差不多同等水準了因為災後我們花蓮地震請問你有去過花蓮嗎最近"},{"start":4151.145,"end":4173.807,"text":"對不起我個人因為也沒有這個因為目前的災害地震受災害的情況不太一樣那有些是花蓮市有些秀林鄉秀林鄉比較嚴重那他們很多人主委跟我說他們兩個月過完那個所謂的這邊有寫嘛臨時工作機會大概是提供兩個月必要時可再延長那現在"},{"start":4174.997,"end":4184.749,"text":"那兩個月如果快到了,那你要怎麼來延長它?已經要延到六個月了。對,您放心,您放心。我剛剛在口頭報告一開始就報告了對於震災,海花蓮震災的這個處理,勞動部的這部分措施。"},{"start":4195.202,"end":4222.808,"text":"因為我們常常我當然還是要說我們常常在分類的時候我們是跟弱勢族群在一起可是你在看第17月的報告你會說身心障礙者、原住民、二度就業婦女我們都是放在這邊沒有關係可是你的比如說你協助弱勢失業11萬2243人你只有總數你沒有把它分類我不知道我們原住民的這個在哪裡懂意思嗎所以還是要把我們原住民把它表列化特別標出來還有25頁"},{"start":4228.672,"end":4248.191,"text":"因為我們常常會發生一些牢災比如說墜落的這些事情常常發生在我們原住民身上我特別看了一下你說營造業的監督執行率是10328次今年到4月為止也就是說120天裡面你執行了1萬多次也就是每天110次你如何達成的"},{"start":4249.556,"end":4277.667,"text":"這邊我請署長來回答好嗎?委員法我們各有各地勞動檢查機構根據風險做監督檢查是由各檢查機構來做實時檢查所以是每天幾乎有121次然後可是我們的罰款還是有1億多那可是1億多的這個件數是多少件違法然後它的平均的受罰的沒件數的受罰的金額是多少應該也要知道啊你雖然知道是1億多可是我不知道你罰了誰也不知道你罰了多少人我們後續再給委員進一步的資料這個我們都有謝謝委員"},{"start":4277.927,"end":4277.967,"text":"好,好,謝謝"},{"start":4299.514,"end":4299.654,"text":"下一頁下一頁"},{"start":4325.25,"end":4350.814,"text":"大部分都是在墜落這邊齁就是我們剛剛講的那個職業的災害的那個所謂的盤點或是說監測啊或是去稽查應該都要知道還有不好意思在上岳還有最多跟我講的是說他們去做工作的時候很多僱主都沒有投保所以他們在上班的時候都沒有安全感你要怎麼去杜絕或者去預防這樣的事情"},{"start":4353.603,"end":4374.956,"text":"職災保險現在是一律都可以投喔可是還是很多勞工我們原住民勞工並不知道他有這樣的一個他可以去哪裡去申辦還是怎麼樣好我們來加強這個宣導然後因為事實上職災保險現在到了7就可以投保了只要到ibon他掉下去了然後就去考的時候就顧主沒有幫他保"},{"start":4375.376,"end":4377.14,"text":"而且資災保險是相對便宜,所以這個我們來加強對營造業工地的宣導,好嗎?"},{"start":4387.669,"end":4414.13,"text":"我們目前我們就講移工的部分我們知道要開放一萬五千名那我們怕就是說我們未來會不會擠壓到我們原住民的就業因為我們大部分也從事勞動這些重工業的工作比如說營建或工程你營建這麼多我們的移工的時候會不會相對的就壓縮了我們的工作的權利要怎麼來預防怎麼來跟我們原住民的勞工來解釋"},{"start":4415.74,"end":4428.419,"text":"是跟我們報告我們對原住民勞工的就業保障一定放在最優先所以其實在這個引進移工前我們會確保他招募這個國內的招募到一定比例"},{"start":4430.271,"end":4452.492,"text":"我請署長可你回覆一下好嗎跟委員報告這個我們在開放但是我們跟內政部會在整個程序當中一定會落實對國內的招募的一個部分要優先來試驗對沒有錯可是我還聽到很多老公朋友說外老朋友把我的工作權拿走了所以我想說這個部分你一定要去想辦法杜絕或者說避免可以嗎"},{"start":4453.132,"end":4453.893,"text":"謝謝盧憲一委員的發言接下來請舒清泉委員發言"},{"start":4484.935,"end":4486.585,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長請何部長"},{"start":4491.857,"end":4491.877,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4520.005,"end":4539.593,"text":"新任勞動部長何佩珊,勞團金夫,勞保年金大刀要砍了,有這個事嗎?委員,絕對不會,絕對沒有,我剛剛已經講得很清楚了是你剛剛在報告的時候我在那個辦公室有看喔,你說政府會撥補嗎?是下一頁"},{"start":4543.806,"end":4567.226,"text":"政策是多領、少領、延後退,這就消耗了嘛。搞到多的、扭到少的、扭到少的,這就歐巴桑就要了,踏到你。我們那個機構的清潔勞務公司的經理跟我講說,欸現在這個部長是特寫的,我說我不知道耶,我不知道,查看看。他說這就政策這樣,那踏到他。"},{"start":4578.146,"end":4602.395,"text":"委員這個是年改過去年改的在討論的方案基本上這個是蔡總統講出來的他在演講的時候這樣講的蔡總統沒有講過這樣子的方案這是過去8年蔡總統執政的時候曾經討論過的年改方案不過基本上這是在勞保年改是不適用的"},{"start":4603.695,"end":4614.789,"text":"好,華國只有把退休年齡延長兩年,暴動持續將近兩年,到現在還在亂,你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":4616.165,"end":4639.295,"text":"這就是我們要如果要進行所謂的這一種多腳少領、延後退縱這個東西事實上它付出的社會代價跟成本是非常高的而且恐怕我們整體社會都承擔不起因為就是老闆是1050萬人的保險那麼他幾乎已經是等於是國民的基礎年金的角色了"},{"start":4639.815,"end":4656.889,"text":"政府的角色在哪裡啦?你搞這個就是把問題丟給勞工,叫他比較慢才拿的,叫他要比較早的,要有心理準備,然後叫僱主說你要搞比較早的,然後政府的角色是什麼?"},{"start":4657.694,"end":4678.391,"text":"政府公共投資與政策投資要夠嘛這個跟我們醫療是一模一樣的嘛現在醫療搞一個總額預算全部把財務的壓力丟給醫界然後這十幾年來政府很好幹啊他們就沒有壓力啊到年底就是總額預算就是浮動嘛浮動就是一點變成0.8、0.6、0.7都你知道的事情"},{"start":4682.703,"end":4703.519,"text":"現在我們的勞動部不錯,還有博普知道政府的角色在哪裡現在的衛福部就是白爛嘛這樣我看起來這兩個問題是一模一樣就政府你的公共政府你的角色政府你的投入要過多才能穩定這兩個"},{"start":4706.056,"end":4715.627,"text":"醫療是台灣最大的穩定力量醫療的幫全都幫勞工更是我們心中的一塊肉所以我要跟你講下一張"},{"start":4717.908,"end":4737.128,"text":"這個你剛剛有講了嘛,會破產或什麼的。好,我問一個問題。現在他們宣布而已。對,這個合併的過程會走很長的。那這個我比較擔心的,因為我很少再叫外送了。"},{"start":4739.819,"end":4765.055,"text":"我覺得我們做這家人,做吃的人,我這裡要跟他們肯定我去餐廳吃,不管哪一個餐廳吃,我坐下來都很感恩人家要煮飯給我們吃,我就很感恩的好吃壞吃,我從來沒在想的,再來就吃,吃吃的感謝父親欠官欠家的,我坐在這邊,因為煮這吃有夠辛苦好啦,那現在Uber跟Panda如何變成一家?"},{"start":4766.246,"end":4788.641,"text":"那現在不用他自己定然後這個接送員的薪水他的權益由他定他說了算會不會這樣部長有可能啊因為他是第一名跟第二名的合併這知識體大對消費者跟對外送員的權益都是很可能會產生嚴重的傷害所以你的看法是不好嗎"},{"start":4789.622,"end":4807.785,"text":"我們醫界齁兩個國家醫院一個是臺大醫院一個是農民總醫院臺北齁那為什麼以前會扶持兩家醫院都當國家醫院這就競爭嘛具競爭又聯合醫療水準才會提高對齁如果只要醫界派大督大要的老大我想搞的全世界都要想搞齁"},{"start":4810.71,"end":4834.947,"text":"兩家在評比,你看這一次在國外評比榮總的分數竟然贏過台大,雖然贏不多啦台大的院長很不無氣啊不無氣就拚嘛所以這個Uber跟富邦塔要合併我們是省慎喔,要很省慎部長那再來我要問你一個問題喔,這個剛剛你要講這高峰安的事情"},{"start":4837.926,"end":4850.993,"text":"國會助理的事情你在老柯那邊當過主任啊什麼什麼回間回扣什麼亂七八糟你的幹話是什麼這個很重要因為你是勞動部長所以我問你這個問題拍回答"},{"start":4858.703,"end":4870.462,"text":"這一題我沒有很了解耶真的抱歉因為這個也是一個大問題啦好下一張那你就準備好再來說吧謝謝"},{"start":4873.393,"end":4899.468,"text":"那剛剛震災的措施我看你也講的非常多昨天我在屏東縣在小悠球做交通的考察那次長去那部長就親自打電話給交通部長說他陪行政院長在花蓮看災我就給他拍拍手我說去講什麼我不知道但是至少你馬上去所以你這些勞工這邊的措施有什麼亮點"},{"start":4901.965,"end":4922.609,"text":"我剛剛有跟特別在剛剛業務報告有提到訓練補助跟雇用獎勵這個是我們第一次救安基金使用在對企業來補助他能夠不解雇勞工這個是第一次使用當然要花4.6億所以這就是所謂的雇用獎助所以這一點請委員務必要支持這樣子對"},{"start":4928.67,"end":4941.958,"text":"這一點我們一定支持那還有幾十秒問一個現在這個立法院在表決這個事情十幾年前你是同意的那十幾年後好像你是保留還是反對"},{"start":4944.319,"end":4949.561,"text":"美國參眾議員很多都說 這個本來就應該要通過的我們也有注意外面的報導阿你講那一面"},{"start":4972.729,"end":4973.23,"text":"謝謝蘇委員的發言接下來我們請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":5003.434,"end":5006.135,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請何部長。請何部長。黃委員好。謝謝。何部長今天算是你第一次到委員會來備詢。當然很多委員針對勞動部的一些業務對你有很大的一個期許。尤其是年改的議題還有缺工這個議題。"},{"start":5025.763,"end":5043.336,"text":"其實勞動部的這個所有的業務都跟所有勞工息息相關而且勞工你們的一舉一動所有的政策其實所有勞工都看在眼裡所以我今天先就叫我們這個何部長有關這個缺工的這個議題"},{"start":5046.299,"end":5065.835,"text":"當然就是現在我們整個社會高齡化少子化這個問題真的是還蠻嚴重的所以我們勞動部在幾年前就有針對這個缺工的這個議題有提出一個流採酒用的這個方案那我看到這個實施了幾年之後我看到有這個流採酒"},{"start":5066.235,"end":5081.82,"text":"全部全臺灣的移工70多萬人有企業或者是看護工有申請留財久用目前是2萬多人從2萬多人其實我又看到一個問題就是留財久用產業工差不多52萬有申請是1.6萬家庭看護工24萬申請是1.7萬"},{"start":5095.484,"end":5119.434,"text":"那你就發現到一個問題就是說我們來自基層很多的這個中小企業他一直在講缺工那有很多這個傳統產業他原本的這個外籍移工他的技術非常純熟之後這個僱主希望他能夠繼續留下來才會有這個移工留才久用這個方案嘛對不對那我看到這個議題這個問題就很嚴重就是說產業"},{"start":5123.035,"end":5123.795,"text":"我覺得有可能是齁"},{"start":5145.1,"end":5171.861,"text":"因為家庭看護工喔他的這個是一對一嘛然後他的這個替代性比較少其實他會留下來大家都把他相當像家人了所以會有更多的家庭看護工會希望留下來他本身希望留下來變台灣人然後他的家庭也希望能夠把他留下來繼續照顧這個應該是比較基本的因素啦第二個可能是這個您講的"},{"start":5172.762,"end":5172.822,"text":"中小企業"},{"start":5193.032,"end":5221.96,"text":"前年到現在而已其實才兩年我覺得宣傳不夠啦要擴大到各工業區去宣傳對然後甚至下到這一個我們委員的各選區的這個基層的尤其是中小企業這個層次去宣傳這樣子我記得你們要開始推動這個移工留財久用的這個方案當時我有跟許部長講就是說要到這個基層不論是工會或者是這個工業區甚至"},{"start":5222.5,"end":5239.019,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5239.379,"end":5265.565,"text":"在反映說這個移工他技術很純熟我們希望把他留下來好避免他離開之後又到另外其他國家或者是回到他自己的母國又自己開一間公司來跟原本臺灣的這家公司來競爭所以我是覺得說如果有這樣的一個方案看到產業移工他申請的人數反而是比家庭移工還少我覺得這應該是有一些問題"},{"start":5267.406,"end":5287.226,"text":"所以你們後面後續要怎麼去處理?現在已經在各地要成立服務中心 對不對我們請署長來講或者是說你們的申請的流程是非常繁瑣非常不容易所以變成說雇主他也不願意去申請"},{"start":5288.387,"end":5311.07,"text":"對,我跟委員報告因為我們現在移工流財久用在產業這個部分我們現在加強推動從幾個面向第一個就是剛剛委員提到我們直接深入到工業區跟一些相關的一些地方的一些產業園區那這一部分我們現在像類似跟廠協會現在在合作我們會加強在整個在地的那第二個就是說整個流程跟窗口我們現在已經成立了移工流財久用中心單一窗口"},{"start":5311.57,"end":5332.458,"text":"也就是一站式服務啦 所有的需求只要透過我們這個中心 我們就全程來協助 那這個目前看起來效果已經慢慢出來 那我們會持續來推動 那整個程序跟流程跟表現的簡化 我們現在都在持續在檢討當中 我們跟相關部位我們未來會照樣這個部分 所以你們有預計就是說要達到什麼樣的目標嗎"},{"start":5334.319,"end":5357.814,"text":"其實本來我們在移工流財久用大概就是說以8年來看我們包含資深移工跟就是這個比較年輕移工我們希望能夠達到14萬個流財那目前其實我們都超標了我們大概以目前一年都將近2萬個也就是我們預期大概未來我們絕對可以達到我們原來的這個目標值我們會加強來努力其實這個政策是因為"},{"start":5359.415,"end":5378.307,"text":"之前很多的中小企業一直在反映所以才會有這個移工留才久用這樣的一個方案那既然有這樣的一個方案我也希望你們針對這些中小企業應該要多加的去宣傳讓這些技術純熟的移工真正的能夠留在台灣因為確實這個對中小企業來講是有一些幫助的"},{"start":5382.99,"end":5409.66,"text":"另外剛剛有很多的委員也很關心就是譬如說我們這個婦女就業或者是中高齡就業的這個議題當然我們希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分確實還有需要再加強就是說婦女她的這個勞參率是偏低的尤其是結婚之後生小孩之後勞參率是偏低的那怎麼樣讓她"},{"start":5410.52,"end":5428.063,"text":"﹗"},{"start":5428.603,"end":5449.755,"text":"確實真的還要再加強因為我覺得看了這個一些數據確實是不滿意那在何部長上來之後我相信很多人對你寄予厚望總是新的部長上來有一些新的作為那是不是可以再請部長針對我剛剛講的這個婦女這個就業還有中高齡的這一部分你未來要怎麼加強"},{"start":5451.576,"end":5467.817,"text":"我用我自身的經歷我覺得到我這個年紀大概也差不多就是如果我有生小孩的話現在大概也是應該要之前有在家庭的話大概應該要回歸那事實上因為我覺得婦女大概在中年以後"},{"start":5468.377,"end":5470.019,"text":"我一個就是說我想要推動這個育嬰留庭跟照顧留庭啦"},{"start":5487.618,"end":5504.591,"text":"我們照顧留庭包括大家委員關切的照顧假這些事情我們大家未來再研議另外就是說未來移工是不是可以進入長照體系來做一個補充式的服務然後幫助婦女能夠把更多的照顧責任能夠把它做一點緩解這樣子"},{"start":5511.296,"end":5526.287,"text":"今天確實有很多問題想要問我們希望說部長可以針對缺工的這個議題各產業都有這個缺工的聲音所以你要怎麼樣再去聽到各產業缺工那你們要怎麼去解決"},{"start":5527.348,"end":5545.116,"text":"當然就是說很多人在跟我反映這個傳統產業缺工旅宿業餐飲業缺工好像聽到好像到處都在缺工所以怎麼樣去解決這個議題那我覺得說其實這個也不是勞動部一個人可以去解決應該也要去跨部會很多"},{"start":5546.256,"end":5563.565,"text":"很多可能從有的我們講說很多這個年輕人也許可以從國中甚至高中可以就有建教合作的方式好這個缺工也許可以這樣子慢慢來解決我覺得這個應該也是要一個跨部會的去合作"},{"start":5565.086,"end":5592.298,"text":"我舉個例,像旅宿業缺工喊得很大聲啦那其實是跟交通部我們必須一起解決可是我也要在這裡強調缺工不能等於低薪啦所以我覺得就是說你這個缺工要先從提升本土勞產率、勞動就業開始然後是在不足的情況下我們才去引進移工那麼引進移工的時候我們也要同時重視你的薪水到底是多少"},{"start":5593.498,"end":5618.166,"text":"對,因為這個東西是我們跟交通部現在目前在討論的重點我們希望他能夠把薪水能夠提高一些啦不要一直用低薪,因為你去低薪的話你無論是本土或是移工其實都很難請啦其實前禮拜一的時候國宴那我們在那個餐廳裡面我們就看到很多是這個大學餐飲科的學生"},{"start":5619.266,"end":5645.137,"text":"那他有這個機會來服務其實他也覺得說是很難得的一個經驗那其實我也看到很多比如說高職學生他要升到大學他有的是用這種產學合作的方式那這方面其實也可以減少一些這個增加就業機會然後又可以減少這個缺工的這個問題啦所以我希望說勞動部應該也要主動然後跨部會的來協調"},{"start":5646.677,"end":5647.478,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是請部長?請何部長"},{"start":5678.851,"end":5707.877,"text":"王昭薇好部長好部長先恭喜你喔謝謝這個長期擔任幕僚然後從幕後走向台前喔謝謝站上舞台的滋味如何美光燈聚焦滋味如何這個謝謝委員的疼惜然後對給我很多信心那麼對這個也請委員多多這個照顧支持目前還適應嗎就是說這麼多媒體會開始追著你跑然後站在背心上"},{"start":5708.257,"end":5713.34,"text":"接下來進入到今天的主題我想全國勞工最關注的就是勞保到底會不會破產的議題而這個議題從蔡英文政府8年當時說軍、工、教、勞、義、齊、改結果"},{"start":5737.608,"end":5766.762,"text":"蔡總統已經卸任了但是勞保改革的列車完全沒有啟動那這個部分我們看到賴總統520就職演說他說有政府在這個勞保就不會倒當大家的靠山那這是不是意味著賴清德沒有要走蔡英文的路線在賴清德任內不會啟動勞保的任何年金改革"},{"start":5768.058,"end":5796.103,"text":"委員是這樣子我想施政是延續的那施政過去如果有這個值得檢討的地方那也是必須要面對的我想我也有跟您報告過勞保年改跟這一個軍公教改革是不一樣的問題所以當時蔡總統所說的軍公教勞一起改他其實是在騙軍公教就是其實勞本來就沒有要改還是說他改不了"},{"start":5797.29,"end":5825.732,"text":"其實是嘗試改過的20177年就把勞保年改條例送到立院來可是在立院是完全沒有辦法推動的我們朝野都無法支持所以這我們就是有這樣子失敗的經驗所以也進行了檢討好我只要確認一件事情是不是賴總統任內不會啟動勞保年金改革並沒有這樣的方案說服是唯一的選項"},{"start":5826.963,"end":5854.343,"text":"公務委員報告就是撥補就是改革因為對跟大家的認知差有點有部長我必須糾正你一下撥補不是改革好如果撥補是改革的話我覺得軍公教就用撥補就好了就是撥補是改革然後有政府在其實就不會到如果這個邏輯是通的話我相信軍公教他的這個整個基金的規模比勞保小的更多所以其實我要提醒的是當"},{"start":5855.751,"end":5878.668,"text":"政府就是有責任就是要承擔而面對問題當然你們現在可以提出來說撥補但是我要講一句話撥補叫做治標不治本如果撥補這麼的簡單就像我剛剛講的軍公教根本不用改啊對不對就是有政府在就不會倒啊大家都一致啊當時其實不用啟動任何的改革"},{"start":5879.093,"end":5897.783,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們現在對軍公家也有進行撥補現在即便是現在但你還是改了對不對你減少了他的你減少了他的這個他的所得的部分所以這個部分我還是要提醒這個我們尊重賴總統就是他不啟動這個勞保年金改革但是撥補他就是一個治療的方案你如果看到這一個圖你就可以知道當時間走在拉長的時候"},{"start":5909.73,"end":5912.732,"text":"撥補真的可以讓勞保基金不倒嗎?"},{"start":5912.732,"end":5920.698,"text":"這個就只是一個短暫的治標。這個是我要告訴部長的。接下來另外一個就是有關於勞工工時的問題。這個部長你應該知道,這個勞工工時在你們今天的報告裡面也有提到。"},{"start":5928.564,"end":5949.189,"text":"每月工時你們提到現在是162.2換算起來年大概就是我們現在看到這個數字我們勞工全年的正常工時1923.6排名全球第6那這個不是一個好的排名我們比臨近的日本、韓國其實還要多部長你知道嗎當然越高吧日本的話它是日韓的部分工時"},{"start":5958.495,"end":5959.836,"text":"所以部長我請教你你認為臺灣的勞工有過勞的問題嗎公使有菜廠的問題嗎"},{"start":5988.88,"end":6003.298,"text":"這個部分當然我想勞工的感受我可以體會就是說這種疲倦在職場上的這樣子的一個感受那我想我們都必須要去面對勞工這種心理感受"},{"start":6004.779,"end":6023.167,"text":"你覺得只是心理感受但是每個月的加班工時這邊是96小時就是年加班工時96小時這樣不高嗎全球排名第6不高嗎所以這個部分我希望這個部長你還是要注意是勞動部部長所以你的角色"},{"start":6024.088,"end":6041.126,"text":"應該是要跟勞工站在一起的跟過去你是行政院秘書長必須幫行政院幫院長就是在做一些政策的辯護我覺得角色上是不一樣的因為勞工部對你是有期待的以前許民村部長都會說我是勞工的大家長"},{"start":6042.387,"end":6068.938,"text":"你要不要講一遍你是勞工的大家長當然你是當然當然對那勞工的大家長我就希望你把勞工的權益一定是永遠擺在優先而不是企業當然我想這個角色要非常清楚好不好是是是另外一個既然是勞工的權益最近有一個最關注的是外送平台這個Uber Eats跟那個Foodpanda整個要整併那所以未來台灣就只有一家外送"},{"start":6069.858,"end":6072.32,"text":"那獨大的時候其實他衍生的問題這個獨大某種程度就是壟斷那當獨大又壟斷的時候請問這一些外送人員的權益應該要怎麼樣去照顧我這邊提出三個問題"},{"start":6085.908,"end":6105.942,"text":"第一個就是說平台合併變成單一平台之後外送員的溢價能力即使他們有公會在相對上來講這個是不是會更弱勢會不會會喔會當然會那這個部分我們勞動部也會想到所以必須勞動部做他們的後盾是支撐他們一起跟職場談判是"},{"start":6108.746,"end":6120.214,"text":"我們會來這樣處理除了是口頭的支撐之外在法令上面不是口頭喔我們是實質作為比如說講具體一點好不好像我們5月29號已經要進行他們雙邊的對話的討論我們資方也會參與是你們召開的對對是我們召開的資方也答應參與了好那主要的內容要談及什麼具體的事項來那個市長要報告"},{"start":6137.307,"end":6153.335,"text":"跟委員報告我們談了好幾個題目但是第一個題目就是賓購後在衛生員工很關心的相關缺因的問題那我們也把他們的訴求提供給兩家主要的業者特別是Uber那也希望他當天能夠提出比較明確的一些說法"},{"start":6153.795,"end":6176.674,"text":"那如果這個外送員的訴求其實平台並不接受請問勞動部有任何的其他的方法跟工具我們正在想辦法這是委員您點到重點確實這平台是相當強勢的因為他們都是跨國企業跨國企業也要適用台灣的法律如果我們有一部中央的法律"},{"start":6178.956,"end":6200.811,"text":"來規範來要求我覺得這個才會是強而有力的後盾目前的情況是地方政府去訂定自治條例但坦白講我覺得那個要求其實是很有限但今天如果是由中央政府機關針對這個部分如何去保障外送員的相關權益事項包括他們的訴求一些關鍵的"},{"start":6202.332,"end":6230.358,"text":"讓他入法讓他有法令依據管他是多大的外商平台來到台灣你就得適用台灣的法令來到台灣你就必須把台灣的外送員他們的權益視為是你營運裡面最重要的部分不准有剝削而且不准他去任意的去抬高價格這個不只是外送員的權益他將來他如果任意轟台我們每一個人可能都遭殃"},{"start":6231.218,"end":6251.512,"text":"沒人可能都有點外送的這個經驗愛他怎麼抬高就抬高因為你今天要點外送只剩這一家這個問題我希望勞動部其實是要去好好關切的而過去我們中央並沒有立法現在有委員的版本已經開始進來了我覺得這個部分我們必須展現台灣我們的公權力"},{"start":6254.354,"end":6274.192,"text":"讓這一些外商你要來這邊賺錢沒有關係但請遵守台灣的法令這個部分勞動部可以去研議嗎?是當然這個委員我知道這邊外商平台的專法已經都在委員會裡面了對這東西這部分我們會審慎來研議討論對那其次我們會強化各部會的合作包括對公平會這個併購的過程"},{"start":6276.133,"end":6276.153,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":6304.885,"end":6312.068,"text":"謝謝王育明委員發言接下來在這邊先做以下宣告等一下在林淑芬委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請圖全級委員發言好謝謝主席那請我們何部長"},{"start":6335.476,"end":6364.038,"text":"委員好好 何部長恭喜你來兼任我們的勞動部長謝謝那我想請問一下我們何部長那針對過去8年我們蔡政府他有針對我們基本工資這8年來他有不斷的調漲那我想請問一下尤其這近5年的調漲那我們基本工資調漲的目的是什麼那我想請問一下何部長你覺得這基本工資調漲的目的是什麼"},{"start":6364.458,"end":6387.411,"text":"當然是為了保障勞工的權益對那是不是也有一部分他是不是也希望能夠帶動我們勞工整體的薪資當然他會有定貌的效果會有對指標作用對那我們也看一下那因為我們基本工資年年上漲可是據我們看到我們這5年來我們的實質的薪資"},{"start":6389.412,"end":6415.312,"text":"沒有成長停滯不前甚至有些還是倒退的你看我們這個近5年從108年到112年我們這5年基本工資的調漲但是這近5年我們實質經常性薪資尤其從110年到112年他是倒退路的也就是說這3年我們物價的上漲通貨的膨脹大於薪資的調漲"},{"start":6418.735,"end":6436.229,"text":"那針對這一部分我們之前我們的許明春部長他有講他說基本薪資的調漲就是希望能夠帶動我們基本上我們邊際勞工的收入但是有很多的勞工朋友有跟我們講這個基本工資的調漲其實都沒有漲到他們他說因為這基本工資調漲都是"},{"start":6441.733,"end":6441.793,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6466.336,"end":6483.991,"text":"公務員報告這有兩點第一點就是說確實漲基本工資未必能漲到基本工資以上的那一群人這是事實那麼那個部分我們要動用其他的政策工具我們現在有進行中小企業加薪抵稅的條例的修法"},{"start":6484.491,"end":6502.996,"text":"把那個抵稅的門檻放高放寬這樣子啟動的門檻也放寬這樣相信可以帶動企業願意再替那個基本工資以上的員工加薪這是第一點第二點就是說這有通膨的因素啦所謂的實質經常性薪資這個通膨的因素是因為它是跨部會的問題啦"},{"start":6504.136,"end":6519.294,"text":"那當然主要還有包括新台幣可能有貶值的問題等等各方面對還有包括國際的因素等等這部分勞動部會比較沒有辦法用單一部會來解決可是我會想辦法來向行政院反映好嗎"},{"start":6520.075,"end":6542.877,"text":"因為今天會提出這部分就是有很多的勞工朋友他說其實這個最低基本工資怎麼調帳尤其我們蔡政府這8年來的調帳他說其實他們是毫無感受因為都是調最低的他們不要說8年這10年來10幾年來他們都沒有調到薪水所以我們從這個實質薪資我們就看得到因為他們沒有調帳"},{"start":6544.378,"end":6566.209,"text":"所以這個通貨的膨脹造成他實質的薪資不但沒有提升反而是後退所以我們看到這8年來好像蔡政府好像對於這基本工資一直調漲好像薪水一直在調但是都是調最低的反而這大部分的沒有領基本工資的他們都沒有調漲所以這個每年每年的物價上漲通貨膨脹"},{"start":6567.97,"end":6586.101,"text":"就變成說看得到實質薪資是倒退的所以這部分會提出也希望何部長能夠重視這十幾年來他們很多人薪水都沒有調漲的問題希望何部長能夠以勞動部的大家長立場來幫我們來了解希望有機會能夠幫他們研議怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":6588.268,"end":6607.644,"text":"好那針對第二項那我也知道我們何部長是野百合世代社會運動公運農運出身所以我相信說對於工會這些組織的部分我認為何部長應該也都是非常關心那我想請問一下我們跳下一頁那針對我們"},{"start":6609.085,"end":6622.983,"text":"公會的組織門檻有很多的勞工跟我們來反映因為台灣是以中小企業為主有98%的企業他僱用的人數不到30人所以算起來有343萬"},{"start":6625.386,"end":6646.416,"text":"這受雇的勞工並沒有機會來組織這個工會甚至連我們中央銀行他都贊成降低門檻連我們立法院的法治局也認為30人的門檻對於我們中小企業組織工會的權利是受限制的不知道針對我們何部長針對這一部分你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":6648.768,"end":6668.503,"text":"跟委員報告其實許部長他的這個談話是反映台灣社會的現實我們的中小企業真的占了台灣的產業的98%是非常龐大的一個部門到底工會的門檻下修有沒有幫助勞工的團結權其實這是一個問號"},{"start":6671.705,"end":6700.985,"text":"這真的是我們必須很仔細的去分析到底有沒有用因為事實上他並不見得真正能夠提升勞工的團結權那因為事實上在30人以下的單位他本身在團結上面他會有一定程度的難度因為他跟資方之間就是一個家庭的關係類家庭的關係所以你說叫他去跟資方之間用這種公會抗爭的方式事實上也做不到所以事實上"},{"start":6701.745,"end":6721.828,"text":"所謂下修30人以下是不是多數勞工的中小企業內部勞工的想法這我們說真的要去確認因為針對這一部分我們之前詢問過我們許部長當然他說這個降低工會門檻容易影響企業的營運但是我們一直還是不斷接受到很多中小企業很多勞工他說認為"},{"start":6723.029,"end":6723.109,"text":"我們會來研究討論"},{"start":6750.014,"end":6772.455,"text":"好這一部分也請我們何部長來重視一下那還有我們最近尤其我們去年民洋大火之後有造成我們市民消防人員的殉職其實這幾年來陸陸續續都有很多很年輕很優秀的消防員因為救火保護我們人民生命財產而讓他自己"},{"start":6773.175,"end":6794.686,"text":"的生命受到損失而罹難那針對我們消防員組織工會的這一部分我請問一下我們何部長請問你對消防員組織工會的這個態度你是否支持我認為這個消防員還是要回歸公務人員協會法可是他們一直認為說這個"},{"start":6796.852,"end":6820.507,"text":"考試院的公務人員協會法這個門檻過高而且對於他們的協商權他們感覺都是被架空的委員跟您報告我們已經請考試院趕快把這個公務人員協會法關於協商的部分做一些放寬這個是比較實際的處理有效解決消防員的那種問題那如果要用公務人員協會法我們希望"},{"start":6821.728,"end":6844.165,"text":"這個門檻的部分要去做個調整還有他們所重視的協商權不應該被架空如果真的沒有辦法改善我們倒認為他組織工會的方式可以比照教師那大家一直都很擔心會有勞資爭議處理的問題我們可以像教師組工會一樣明定就是他們也禁止罷工我認為就應該可以解決這個問題"},{"start":6845.946,"end":6865.195,"text":"當然這部分我們今天來講就是因為何部長新上來我們都把一些我們地方民眾的聲音勞工的聲音也希望能夠反映給我們部長知道還有我們從111年的時候我們有正式來統計也希望何部長來重視這個問題我們這個逃逸外勞逃逸外勞的部分已經超過8萬多人了已經超過8萬人那針對這部分而且"},{"start":6874.98,"end":6883.674,"text":"這個比例我們看起來是年年增加不知道我們勞動部有沒有什麼方法那何部長針對這部分你有沒有自己的看法跟解決方法"},{"start":6884.793,"end":6905.339,"text":"因為移工的失聯原因真的是很多啦 有勞動條件的問題啦 這個有一般缺工的問題這樣 可是就是說第一個我們可能要強化那個尤其是家庭看護工這一塊啦 他的薪資啦 有可以再提升的空間啦 然後讓他減少他逃跑的誘因啦"},{"start":6906.4,"end":6928.381,"text":"這個是我們目前也許可以努力的方向那其次是強化那個職聘的服務讓他能夠可以依自己的意願這樣子來進行各種的這樣子的所以我一直希望勞動部針對這一部分一定要來重視因為這個逃逸外勞不但沒有減少還一直在增加所以我們擔心這以後衍生一些治安的問題"},{"start":6929.142,"end":6942.197,"text":"而且現在我們覺得臺灣缺工已經非常的嚴重像我們內政部移民署他在112年有推這個自首的專案讓一些逃逸的外勞怎麼樣子去解決他們的問題讓他們去自首"},{"start":6944.019,"end":6958.438,"text":"那我想說這個台灣這個缺工問題也都非常嚴重也有人建議說因為他是自首專案移工他自首之後他就不能再返台來工作那我們想說是不是也勞動部跟內政部是不是有一個機會來研議是不是針對這個自首專案"},{"start":6961.903,"end":6977.108,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":6977.788,"end":6987.995,"text":"這個一方面解決逃逸外遙的問題也一方面希望能夠解決我們臺灣缺工嚴重的問題我來跟移民署來討論好嗎對希望這個部長針對這幾個議題先上任我們後面有無限揮灑的空間我們也對何部長有很大的期待希望以上幾個問題部長能夠為我們這些勞工朋友消防員能夠爭取他們合法的權益謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":7005.905,"end":7007.326,"text":"委員．接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"},{"start":7028.937,"end":7043.662,"text":"林委員好部長這個保障企業併購勞工權益這個是我們賴總統的勞工政見之一他之前選舉的時候在去年出席工會舉辦的勞動政見發表會主動有談到了企業併購的問題賴總統說"},{"start":7052.266,"end":7071.46,"text":"新的時代已經來臨,未來國內勢必有企業會與國際競爭,可能跟國內甚至跟國際企業合併,但是他反對惡意併購他說如果合併後,勞權無法比之前更好,至少不能比原本更差"},{"start":7073.402,"end":7077.867,"text":"大家本來都很高度期待這個說法 這個政見我們要講這個是因為你知道依據這個資誠2023年企業併購白皮書他們去統計了2022年的總計的企業併購有117件"},{"start":7094.11,"end":7111.61,"text":"其中61%是外資來台併購23%是國內併購然後前十大的併購案件中只有一件是金融併購那為什麼我們特別要指出金融併購這個問題是等一下再來談"},{"start":7114.392,"end":7137.778,"text":"那你們今天的業務報告其實你們也有談到說要落實賴總統的政見的規劃你們沒有提出修法的規劃而是在既有的併購的時候而在既有的商定流用的原則之下提出了行政指導要供勞工或工會作為協商參考"},{"start":7138.678,"end":7148.095,"text":"那因為這樣子的話其實是背離了我之前說本來賴總統這樣說的時候大家社會還有勞工團體都相當高度的期待"},{"start":7150.373,"end":7178.938,"text":"但你今天的業務報告蠻令人失望的那為什麼這個呢因為現在的企業併購法涉及到勞工權益的部分就在企業併購法的15到17條那企業併購法裡面只規定金融併購金融機構的併購要改組或轉讓的時候員工享有的權利要用勞基法去辦理"},{"start":7179.858,"end":7181.263,"text":"那所以在這樣子會變成說 抱歉"},{"start":7186.516,"end":7212.037,"text":"金融機構他讓你回到勞基法第20條去檢視勞工的權益保障那金融機構以外的呢我們一般的企業併購勞工的權益如果回到企業併購法裡面其實幾乎是沒有保障的那金融機構的併購是多一層大概回到受勞基法第20條的保障所以在這個裡面"},{"start":7216.946,"end":7241.104,"text":"我剛剛一開始就講了企業併購裡面前十大裡面只有一件是金融併購受到勞基法保障的前十大只有一件那其他都要回到這個企業併購法但企業併購法或是勞基法第20條其實對當事人保障都非常非常的少"},{"start":7242.549,"end":7258.814,"text":"所以呢,都是採...大家企業併購的時候大家會談說勞動條件可是勞動條件幾乎都沒有什麼保障啊就勞動契約都可以重來但唯一的就是商定流用到底我能不能確保企業併購的時候我的工作還繼續保有不論是企業併購法"},{"start":7263.82,"end":7285.827,"text":"或是勞基法其實也都說你們兩照雙方自行去商定流用所以商定流用原則幾乎就是台灣的原則可是這個不符合賴總統說的賴總統說病過後的權益如果沒有比以前好至少不能比原本差"},{"start":7287.349,"end":7294.175,"text":"那顯然要做什麼?第一個要確定要有工作啊第二個勞動權益至少也不能改啊那為什麼講這個呢?你知道在歐盟啊2001年啊20幾年前他們的2001、231G指令還有德國的民法的613A條他們不是用商定流用欸"},{"start":7314.193,"end":7318.801,"text":"他們處理企業併購不是用商定流用原則而是秉持著買賣不破雇佣原則"},{"start":7323.217,"end":7336.166,"text":"他規定勞工的勞動契約關係在企業跟事業單位之全部或一部分轉讓給在轉讓的時候自動隨同這個契約要自動隨同移轉給受讓人保護勞工免於單純因企業轉讓而喪失工作而且不只如此還要給勞工資訊權、諮商權"},{"start":7353.699,"end":7355.286,"text":"還要給勞工工人異議權"},{"start":7357.31,"end":7377.502,"text":"所以在這個裡面在企業併購的時候勞工有資訊權資訊權在歐盟或是德國的民法的條文裡面都講到讓與人即受讓人應通知轉讓所涉及的勞工及其代表下列的事項轉讓或預期的轉讓日轉讓的原因轉讓對勞工所產生的法律、經濟跟社會上的影響"},{"start":7386.187,"end":7391.974,"text":"然後預期對勞工所採取的措施所以這樣的資訊權還有諮商權還有意義權去到確保在企業併購裡面的最弱勢的人就是勞工"},{"start":7403.451,"end":7418.565,"text":"這個勞工工作還到照他們的買賣不破的僱傭的這個精神裡面這個條文裡面第一個一定確保還有工作不但確保還有工作勞動條件都一併要轉讓勞動契約都要一併轉讓所以我們在期待的是說"},{"start":7428.427,"end":7443.262,"text":"我們目前這種商定留用還不一定有工作那有工作的勞動條件勞動契約也會被改變你留了工作保留了我給你薪資減少降低年資不採集等等"},{"start":7448.627,"end":7470.007,"text":"所以他當然是非常的有利於雇主去基於重新整合人力資源經營效率的目的但是呢你要想想看這樣子受衝擊的就是勞工勞工失去就業然後在這個裡面大量的解雇或者是解雇"},{"start":7471.028,"end":7495.613,"text":"所以在歐盟的這個指令裡面他本來程序當中的勞動契約或勞動關係所產生的權利義務都要一併轉讓我們跟人家差太多了勞工他不會因為你企業併購而失去了你的工作安全益部長我們真的是你看一年這樣子企業併購多少件我剛剛講的"},{"start":7497.998,"end":7505.706,"text":"一百多件那這樣的受衝擊的勞工有多少人對這我必須要再來瞭解是署長你知道嗎一年喔每年都有喔是"},{"start":7512.899,"end":7539.796,"text":"你們沒有統計數字不過委員這個您講的很對因為我們企業併購其實在台灣才剛剛比較大可能比較多啦才現在這幾年才開始比較多所以那個其實包括企業是不是惡意併購那本身的這些問題的法律釐清都還要再進一步去處理然後您講的我們不管惡意併購或善意併購或是協商好併購我們通通不管"},{"start":7540.356,"end":7545.781,"text":"我們就是不能接受商定流用原則我們想要的是買賣不破雇佣我會往這個方向來研議處理勞基法第20條它裡面就是僅限於事業單位的改組轉讓它只談到說我保障年資水桶移轉年資可是我都沒工作我直接fire你就好了我幹嘛留住你的年資呢那勞動條件它都可以隨時改的年資"},{"start":7568.86,"end":7568.88,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":7585.204,"end":7606.201,"text":"這個勞基法20條只規定新僱主應繼續予以承認年資以外其餘不保證原有的勞動條件也沒有類似大量解僱的時候的強制協商我們的強制協商是只有大量解僱才有換言之除非涉及到大量解僱的人數的門檻沒有任何協商的機制那併購的時候"},{"start":7608.723,"end":7616.689,"text":"只要前30天通知主管機關也不用資訊公開更沒有工會的協商的權利更不要講資訊權那部長你現在說你要訂一個行政指導"},{"start":7622.825,"end":7638.471,"text":"現在大家都知道沒有任何法律效力不能說沒有法律效力就是說我們會衝進我們的行政的能力來對這個企業的併購行為做一些跨部會的這種指引跟討論因為事實上"},{"start":7641.592,"end":7662.318,"text":"賴總統說你沒有比之前更好至少不能比原本差那所謂的不能比原本差大概有兩個狀況嘛第一個當然就是說工作要一定有第二個你的勞動契約你的年資你的勞動條件要維持原狀就是這兩個而已那你現在的指導原則是沒有法律效力的"},{"start":7663.581,"end":7680.956,"text":"你有沒有修法計畫修法的計畫也是要跟跨部會討論的也不是勞動部一個部會可以決定那你會提出嗎我們來努力好嗎買賣不破雇傭我們來努力看看然後請委員支持你的努力是什麼時候我們可以看到你至少有提出去討論"},{"start":7682.557,"end":7689.627,"text":"你提出去討論,我們就可以看到你有努力。好的,我們會來討論。提到部會裡面去討論。是是是。再跟您報告。好,我們就等著看囉。抱歉,我再講。"},{"start":7697.759,"end":7698.64,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8344.721,"end":8364.501,"text":"好現在繼續開會請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席有請部長請何部長"},{"start":8370.253,"end":8398.189,"text":"委員好部長好是謝謝委員謝謝而且真的是任重道遠謝謝因為關心這麼廣大的勞工朋友如何能夠持續提升他們的工作環境是同時能夠讓他們更願意來幫助社會提升整體的安全的同時也讓國家的經濟競爭力能夠得以持續的維持是非常的要麻煩部長"},{"start":8398.989,"end":8420.335,"text":"那其實在賴總統的就職演說裡面就告訴我們說我們希望來持續的提升整體優質的勞動環境包括我們要創造更好的薪資環境同時只要政府在 勞保絕對不會倒同時要改善這個"},{"start":8422.316,"end":8425.899,"text":"請問部長您準備好的嗎?您準備了幾支箭來改善這些問題?"},{"start":8440.65,"end":8456.138,"text":"謝謝委員 其實這都是總統他在就職演說最重要的宣示 那我們在剛剛的業務報告裡面其實也已經有所呈現 那麼就是說我們大概盡我們潔淨所能 然後來進行總統的指示"},{"start":8461.04,"end":8477.085,"text":"我們期待在很快的時間裡面能夠在一白天裡面就看到相關的政策可以逐步的來開展來落實其實本席也非常關心有關於工時的問題因為我們知道其實勞工朋友們"},{"start":8478.045,"end":8504.765,"text":"對於他的工作環境還有在一天裡面或者是一週裡面真的工時的問題如何能夠有機會去優化他改善他那依據貴部就是勞動部在2022年國際勞動統計的資料裡面告訴我們說我國的受僱者平均每天每年的工時還是高居OECD國家的第6名這個意思就是說我們的勞動朋友們"},{"start":8507.187,"end":8521.476,"text":"每一個年度的工作時間相較之下還算是相對的付出時間非常的多那我國從2015年到2022年當中年度的總工時其實已經進步了就是減少96個小時不過相較於韓國這段時間的總工時其實他們減少更多他們減少154個小時"},{"start":8530.442,"end":8550.151,"text":"所以這個降服真的是還有一些進步的空間就是說過去我們減少96個小時我們覺得是進步很多可是香港韓國之下似乎還是可以有更多的進步的空間那我們目前不知道部長知不知道我們那個勞工所訂的這個國定假日一年會有幾天"},{"start":8552.412,"end":8567.077,"text":"因為日本有16天南韓有15天我們是12天當然我們有時候會把它做一些彈性的調整變成一個連續休假讓勞工朋友在這個過程裡面可以安排更好的一些活動的部分"},{"start":8568.777,"end":8590.603,"text":"請問部長是否支持能夠讓總工時能夠持續的來做一些調整讓他有機會在OECD國家的這個排行裡面可以有更好一些改善的同時那能夠這個國定的假日的安排不知道部長這邊有沒有未來在希望有可以有哪一方面的這些處理的模式"},{"start":8591.998,"end":8617.949,"text":"跟委員報告其實週休二日他就有助於縮短工時所以我們才會看到從2016年我們一例一休落實以後其實我們年總工時都已經下降了當然可是如果要跟其他國際比較的話我們必須要看那個內涵因為日本跟韓國部分工時的勞工太多"},{"start":8618.669,"end":8646.611,"text":"他們韓國16%日本25%新加坡10%我們才3%而已部分工時就是做part-time的啦對那事實上如果就我們的全時工時其實是占多數比較於日韓新加坡這個東西其實還蠻重要就是說那勞工的幸福感跟安全感其實全時勞工一定比部分工時勞工好"},{"start":8648.312,"end":8669.152,"text":"這是很重要的喔你只要去看日本韓國你去看那種街頭流浪還有包括那下流老人的問題啊等等他那個整個社會的那一個整個因為部分公使他包括貧窮化其實是相當比例是相當相當高的對所以如果就我們可能不能單從公使本身去看這個問題這要從內涵去看這樣子我比較建議這樣"},{"start":8673.476,"end":8701.767,"text":"是,所以未來麻煩部長在公佈這些資料的同時也可以做一些強調加說明或讓我們的這個國人可以同時感受到我們在強調希望讓這個勞動朋友的工時有效的或者是得到適當的這個處理的同時也能夠去把內涵同時讓國人都能夠了解也讓我們這些勞動朋友也知道原來這個比較不是只看數字而已還要看相對的狀況"},{"start":8702.907,"end":8724.883,"text":"好那謝謝部長這部分就麻煩部長繼續來協助那有關於促進中高齡就業的部分其實本市一直很關心中高齡的這個就業那這個過程必須要兼顧這個勞資的對等還有世代的正義因為我們知道人口結構的改變的同時真的我們希望能夠讓這些中高齡者有機會在"},{"start":8726.644,"end":8744.228,"text":"不管是對社會的付出也好或充還職場也好都有它更彈性的一個作業的方式那我們在前幾個禮拜已經完成了相關的一些延後退休的一些修法那委員會已經通過了委員提案了"},{"start":8744.788,"end":8747.11,"text":"對於勞資協商或者是這些舊制新制的部分都已經有初步的規劃也入法了"},{"start":8763.959,"end":8778.386,"text":"那針對於那個時候許部長也也知道說要要求資方提供更高的不管是健康檢查或者是身心情況的這些因應持續就業帶來的是需要有一些配套的部分那也麻煩許部長"},{"start":8780.286,"end":8792.751,"text":"在這個當初的能夠有相關的配套的同時我們也希望何部長能夠多關注一下未來在做相關的這些處理的時候能夠持續的來關注這一部分"},{"start":8795.612,"end":8822.445,"text":"有關於這個中高齡勞動率的相對比較低我們還是希望有機會來多了解尤其我們看這個2022年主要國家勞動率的參與率的部分我們看到的就是到了54歲好像還沒有那麼不好可是一旦過了55歲以後就非常明顯的遠低於南韓跟日本"},{"start":8823.785,"end":8844.111,"text":"這一部分我們很期待就是勞動部這一邊能不能夠有更多對這個數據的掌握跟理解為什麼這樣的落差會明顯的有這麼大的變化因為其實在108年所公布的中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法裡面"},{"start":8845.171,"end":8868.745,"text":"就已經在第6條我們往下看就可以看到往下看的第6條事實上就需要政府根據這部法律要針對於相關的調查跟研究要定期的公布那這部分我們有上去瞭解似乎還有待希望能夠"},{"start":8869.906,"end":8896.22,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8897.196,"end":8922.589,"text":"好謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請鄭天才委員發言主席各位委員有請部長請何部長"},{"start":8926.087,"end":8933.133,"text":"委員好部長恭喜你謝謝好我們看這個今天勞動部的報告這個"},{"start":8937.448,"end":8954.794,"text":"因為04、03正災﹖提供災期民眾臨時工作機會提供2000個工作機會但是到5月20日用人單位提出需求以全數核定只有527名527名裡面上工的只有356人"},{"start":8962.236,"end":8991.061,"text":"就以花蓮這麼大的震災然後你的報告裡面前面也提到這個很多有兩個飯店大飯店他提出這個顧獎那個名稱叫什麼顧獎措施前面解雇那個大量解雇你的報告裡面提到大量解雇所以這樣的人數就必須要去了解"},{"start":8992.079,"end":9013.38,"text":"提出臨時工的一個機會臨時工結果只有356人所以這個到底原因是什麼所以這個部分是不是那個事後去瞭解我就跟委員解釋這有時候都靠花蓮縣政府提供所以我們可能要用我們自己分屬的力量"},{"start":9014.1,"end":9036.314,"text":"下去自己瞭解這樣子。兩個單位都在,其實都有合作。這個勞動部在花蓮也都有相關的機構。都有都有。所以這個部分我們要瞭解原因。並不是說這個宣傳不足,可能不是。我們最起碼看"},{"start":9037.776,"end":9052.895,"text":"他已經提出需求527啊,實際上工只有356,他覺得說不符合他的需求還怎麼樣,所以這個部分是了解原因,好不好?好,這個回到這個老問題"},{"start":9054.898,"end":9070.847,"text":"原住民勞工這個無一定僱主的非常多這個是105年的資料當時沒有勞保沒有納入勞保的擴除軍工教農3萬2000多勞工為加入勞保我們看這個111年剛才是3萬多現在是已經4萬553了"},{"start":9084.795,"end":9098.238,"text":"原住民沒有參加勞保的,擴除中工教農,所以沒有勞保的40,553人,這是111年。112年,原住民就業者參加勞保的狀況,原住民無勞保之勞工,"},{"start":9112.638,"end":9135.831,"text":"又增加到五萬兩千零二人一直在成長根據原住民族基本法第26條第二項政府對原住民參加社會保險無力負擔者得以補助法令明定"},{"start":9139.668,"end":9155.639,"text":"為了要解決這些本席之前在就質詢然後非常謝謝已經退休的施法基師長後來他從勞保級級長退休106年4月13號他開了第一次的會議針對"},{"start":9164.922,"end":9174.846,"text":"補助原住民勞工參加勞工保險費的可行性然後106年5月11號他真的是很積極聯繫開一個月就開了106年5月11號再開邀請相關的部會來開這個就可行性後來"},{"start":9193.671,"end":9216.897,"text":"106年7月10日又召開。會議結論綜合相關的這些資料之後包括相關的這些數據以及需求特別在會議結論第二點有關勞保費補助經費部分由勞動部配合編列預算之應並協調主計單位納入108年度的預算辦理"},{"start":9224.426,"end":9242.248,"text":"非常明確但是很遺憾的很可惜的沒有促成沒有完成到現在所以這個部分呢是要去解決的部長這個你從過去在立法院"},{"start":9243.752,"end":9266.763,"text":"到行政院我們也認識很多年了所以這個部分是不是能夠重新檢討就是這麼多人而且一直是一個問題尤其是常常過去前任部長會提到說反正已經有職災了那是發生災害的時候那是發生職災的時候"},{"start":9271.357,"end":9288.673,"text":"這個沒辦法用變成用頂多用最最低的最低的勞保的那個去計算跟實際上又不一樣所以事實上當然很多都需要去去探討的部分是不是重新啟動這個之前已經開過的會議可以嗎"},{"start":9291.417,"end":9305.073,"text":"委員,我們來努力好嗎?我們來努力看看。這個沒有多少錢啊。其實,委員喔,這個也不是錢我補助,我們可以怎麼樣去協助。主要是原民會要發動啦。其實是,對。"},{"start":9309.317,"end":9329.111,"text":"當然當然當然當然我會來找原民會一起討論不過我也因為牽涉到那個原住民勞工的勞動跟僱傭型態啦這樣子有沒有幫助原住民就業沒有勞保跟無勞保到底我們就要針對解決他實際上是勞工"},{"start":9332.293,"end":9344.676,"text":"我來找移民會研究我來找移民會瞭解是是是是是是好好好謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員發言接下來請何新淳委員發言謝謝主席黃昭偉我們是不是請何佩珊部長請何部長"},{"start":9358.339,"end":9370.453,"text":"委員好部長先恭喜啦但是也是期許啦因為還有很多的挑戰在我們的面前那第一個就是最近紛紛擾擾的有關這個兩大外送平臺Obereats and Foodpanda這個"},{"start":9375.512,"end":9400.08,"text":"合併了之後會變成是一個獨佔市場的一個局面那我等一下也要去經濟委員會問一下公平會但是呢今天在我們胃環就是要就叫我們何部長在勞動權益上這些外送平台的外送人員我知道呢從過去的許部長到現在我們已經喝咖啡然後開了一些座談會議開了好幾次好像五次還六次對不對對那"},{"start":9402.261,"end":9421.129,"text":"開會開到現在呢,何部長就交給你那您對這些外送人員的權益我們勞動部要如何的來堅守立場保障勞工的權益是,委員現在發生的一個新的形式就是他們提出合併那麼其實他們提出合併的過程必須政府機關審查"},{"start":9422.609,"end":9430.621,"text":"那剛好借這個機會啦我們可以向公平會強烈的表示意見要求公平會在這個合併的審查過程必須會勞動部那麼我也會自己帶頭我們來關切這件事情這樣子一定要的是是是"},{"start":9438.431,"end":9455.688,"text":"現在正在經濟委員會我看到公平會主委他的態度推脫了那呢也沒有堅定的一個立場而且呢都推給呢目前的真的收件要求兩大平台來補件那未來的都推給這個審議委員會那我認為我們作為這個政府機關的第一個公權力要拿出來第二個呢"},{"start":9461.754,"end":9468.08,"text":"對於各方的一個利益權益意見我們都要做一個強烈的主張主張什麼第一個維護勞權外送人員的勞動權益跟他的安全第二個我們對於這個兩大平台的合併之後的一個市場變成獨佔"},{"start":9480.871,"end":9491.843,"text":"這樣子一個經濟模式對於消費者的權益對於餐飲業、小吃店、小店家的一個權益我覺得這個都是政府該跨部會去做的事情絕對不是說那是審議委員會的事所以部長要硬起來"},{"start":9496.488,"end":9525.118,"text":"要主張要主動去要求公平會在審議的過程裡面我們勞動部對於外送平台的一個外送人員的一個權益一定要保障一定要發出聲音拜託部長第二個我發現了一個對你的期許就是我們法規的運用要確保勞工的最佳利益這樣子部長你應該認同吧當然我最近發現一個這個不是個案2月29號出生的勞工他衰嗎"},{"start":9526.448,"end":9542.252,"text":"部長你可能看到這句話你會覺得很納悶為什麼跟勞動部有關係來接下來我們現在所有2月29日出生的勞工他的權益受損這一件事情我從基層的承辦人員問到你們的課長問到你們的組長問到你們的市長問到你們的這個局長沒有人敢"},{"start":9550.202,"end":9573.698,"text":"做決定而且他們也承認我告訴你這個邏輯在哪裡好不好我們台中市這個是個案但是你可以去談通案這個是你要政策來判定案2月29日4年才過一次生日結果當他借齡滿的時候要申請勞保的一個退休的時候連他的退休金都要被吃虧都要吃虧為什麼你知道嗎有兩個模式一個呢我呢"},{"start":9579.021,"end":9603.563,"text":"這個個案他的年紀已經42年多了那呢他申請提早退休所以他滿60歲按照規定滿60歲他都可以申請提早退休結果呢因為他是2月29號出生也就是在這個個案裡面他明明已經屆年滿60歲了但是呢你們勞保局不給他提出申請你說呢要3月1號才能申請"},{"start":9604.944,"end":9622.686,"text":"部長你有講說3月1號申請有什麼不對有為什麼因為呢如果在你們認定裡面他只能3月1號提出申請很抱歉他的申請的退休金少了一個基數他3月提出申請4月才能領所以呢他少領了一個月"},{"start":9624.807,"end":9651.656,"text":"在你們現在的勞保制度裡面是這樣子那不是只有在提早申請退休的這個2月29日出生的勞工才這樣子喔是包括介林滿65歲我要申請退休的2月29日出生的勞工也一樣也一樣你們呢讓滿65歲以上可以申請退休的勞工他2月29日出生你說對不起喔我呢還是讓你3月1日才能夠申請"},{"start":9652.936,"end":9659.84,"text":"那3月1號申請他影響他又是什麼也是一樣他的退休金的權益他掃領了他掃領了是那我們"},{"start":9664.673,"end":9682.815,"text":"明明行政程序法裡面所有政府的施政所有制度法規都應該從人民的權益要從優從利從寬來認定為什麼我們在勞保的這個退休的勤領的年齡的認定上我們要這麼的嚴苛這第一點第二點你們的承辦"},{"start":9683.416,"end":9709.381,"text":"告訴我我們是依據民法來推斷那我就要說你們引用的是民法的第121條是對你們有利對政府機關有利最便宜形式的推斷方式你為什麼不從民法第124條裡面他對於年齡的認定年齡至出生之日期算這一條124條是對勞工對人民有利的你們為什麼不採用為什麼不採記為什麼不認定"},{"start":9713.12,"end":9728.037,"text":"而是從對行政單位最便宜行事的民法121條而且還不是你們自己勞動部的一個行政命令的解釋而且是用其他部會其他部制度的一個解釋行政命令來"},{"start":9731.331,"end":9731.531,"text":"拜託部長"},{"start":9747.447,"end":9748.047,"text":"接下來請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":9782.476,"end":9804.306,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長。請何部長。部長早。我想今天大家都很關心那個外送平台的問題。是。我想問一下部長,你認為外送員是不是勞工?他當然是勞工。他當然是勞工。對。但是他是非典型的勞工,對吧?"},{"start":9805.154,"end":9831.07,"text":"可以這麼說 對非典型的勞工現在會越來越多而且我們但是我們一直都只有一套法律叫做勞動基準法所以常常會有假、承攬、真、雇傭的事實那同樣的外送員不用朝九晚五打卡但是他們是被APP24小時監控著甚至顧客的評價比一般的雇傭更嚴格也就是說"},{"start":9831.957,"end":9832.217,"text":"﹚老公"},{"start":9852.771,"end":9872.396,"text":"委員會有加入職業工會嗎?他會加入我們的職災保護嗎?他們就沒有無固定雇主的意思嗎?也就是他用工會的方式我現在的問題是其實在這麼多年尤其現在已經將近14萬個外送員他們各自不同的權利義務都是用契約關係但是"},{"start":9874.758,"end":9889.425,"text":"在因為我們來自臺北市我們臺北市很早就訂了外送員管理資質條例那全省各縣市全國各縣市也都有訂各自的相關的條例部長我只想問你為什麼中央不肯訂專法"},{"start":9891.272,"end":9908.493,"text":"不是說應該不是不肯定專法為什麼一直沒有定專法專法在上一個上一屆的臺灣民眾黨賴香林委員很早就提了因為他也是臺北市的勞動局長對專法裡面其實非常重要他有幾個面向第一個要有傷害保險"},{"start":9909.694,"end":9931.428,"text":"顧主要用不管是顧主平台業者要出傷害保險的錢第二個要有職災的通報第三個要有教育的訓練最重要的是要揭露所有跟勞動有關的條件包括他們的抽成他們的酬金不可以片面的變動這些在地方政府相關的自治條裡面都規定了"},{"start":9932.309,"end":9943.427,"text":"這些東西並不困難中央定專法也不困難因為你既然不能用勞動基準法規範外送員成立一個專法可能是唯一的方法"},{"start":9944.266,"end":9962.638,"text":"我要說的是如果我們全部都在糾結在我們只能有一套勞動基準法我們是沒有辦法面對未來多元新興的社會形態更何況將來的工作永遠都有所謂的非典現在的人不上班在家工作不打卡"},{"start":9963.559,"end":9986.752,"text":"不進辦公室他一樣是僱傭以後很多類型的工作都會碰到這樣的狀況所以外送員我希望他會成為臺灣第一個認知他是勞工也給他相對保障給他一個專法更何況各地方政府都已經訂了專法這個專法只是要求更公開更透明更有保障部長你同意嗎"},{"start":9987.792,"end":10014.271,"text":"我當然這個非常同意委員這個用一個必須要一個法律的形式來保護外送員但是這個我覺得之前所有的人在這些所謂的公開的相關的平台上面公共政策網路參與平台上面爭取然後我們的行政院回覆是因為涉及不同部門主管者要審慎研議一審慎研議又過了四年"},{"start":10015.151,"end":10040.702,"text":"所以我希望新的部長有新的想法是我來努力可是重點就是說要對外送員這個有幫助啦主要是他們彼此之間的共識甚至都還沒有辦法完全離聚所以為什麼地方政府已經離了表示我們只規定最基本平台業者的責任而不是外送員個人的意見我們給他最基本的保障就比照勞動基準法一樣"},{"start":10042.702,"end":10058.749,"text":"給他傷害保險吧給他職災通報吧給他教育訓練吧給他平台揭露資訊公開透明吧最重要的是他的薪酬不可以片面變更或降低而不經過相關的程序對吧"},{"start":10059.709,"end":10081.143,"text":"對當然委員其實前三頁都有從勞基法的角度我們去面對不要只是糾結在我們只有一部勞動基準法而是我們將來非典工作有各種不同的面向全世界都在面對新的狀態我跟委員解釋齁您這個關係我非常肯定是這樣"},{"start":10083.084,"end":10110.915,"text":"主要是外送員要跟平台談判要有助於他們跟平台談判那麼這個專法到底有沒有幫助這個是真的是他們之間彼此至少目前為止在這個六大都的六都的城市裡面至少外送員不用擔心自己出狀況的時候沒有人求助現在就是變成他們沒有談判能力所以只好靠地方政府去幫忙如果中央政府願意伸出援手他們不會沒有談判能力"},{"start":10111.215,"end":10137.32,"text":"所以我們現在一定要盡全力來幫助他們談判是好不好部長我想捍衛勞工權益跟促進勞資和諧是勞動部最基本的責任所以捍衛勞工權益也是我們對新部長的期許好謝謝好謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言在這邊做以下宣告等一下在陳亭飛委員質詢結束處理臨時提案一案現在請牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":10145.538,"end":10148.905,"text":"好謝謝主席喔這個何部長有請請何部長"},{"start":10155.061,"end":10174.968,"text":"部長早安辛苦了今天第一天來備詢這個我們也做了一些功課您過去年輕的時候其實有在勞工運動裡面應該算是有一定的歷練那這個本席這個第一次的質詢跟您討論一下勞工的一些政策希望您不忘初衷可以幫我們的勞工朋友一起來講話我們就直接單刀直入主題"},{"start":10175.928,"end":10190.663,"text":"第一個是這個今天這個剛剛的新聞今年的第一號颱風即將生成那麼每一次颱風假要不要放假其實都是一個蠻大大家都很多尤其是我們基層的勞工其實都非常期待可以多放一天颱風假"},{"start":10191.664,"end":10213.124,"text":"大家都說台灣的這個過勞狀況其實很嚴重那目前大部分的人都把颱風架有些當成小確幸有些當成喘口氣的這樣的一個機會但北京關心颱風架背後一個政策的一個細節要跟部長來做一下討論齁這個照理來講我們會放颱風架不應該是因為小確幸啦其實是應該是注重勞工的安全嘛"},{"start":10213.404,"end":10230.196,"text":"﹖"},{"start":10230.965,"end":10242.598,"text":"難道現行的這樣子的一個按照這個表格你可以看到勞動部現在的規定這個除了成立的方式由政府來宣布之外其實真正的關鍵是發不發工資按照現行的條件來計算勞動部鼓勵這個企業即便放了颱風架還是要給這個勞工應有的工資但是"},{"start":10250.507,"end":10273.479,"text":"只能做到建議跟建議加發所謂的建議就是說如果颱風假這個勞工沒有出勤那就是希望你這個做做工的發個薪水如果颱風假勞工依然出勤就做做工的多發一點但是只是建議性質那我想問一下以目前勞動部的瞭解全台灣這麼多的企業從大財團到中小企業到微型企業"},{"start":10274.64,"end":10299.513,"text":"真的有按照勞動部的建議去發工資或者是加發工資的企業有哪些?大型企業有喔。各位舉幾個例子。在我們那個跟工商團體他們在討論的時候,那他們有提到說比較大型的企業他們會不扣薪,他們會去替員工來體諒這個事情。"},{"start":10302.284,"end":10328.675,"text":"事業單位名稱就比較不方便去講沒關係我現在今天我們只是做政策討論好不好因為這個我們認真的在思考要不要讓他乾脆入法就既然要保障勞工應該讓他到位這個請勞動部先做一下思考好不好因為我理解啦比如說經濟部的角度對不對我發展經濟是墊高的成本但是政府施政就是這樣嘛我希望部長可以守住勞動部的本位嘛就是我站在勞工立場我當然要這樣子強烈的主張有機會往前進的時候從建議變成應該"},{"start":10330.836,"end":10352.746,"text":"我們應該要做嘗試來做溝通那今天的第一步我希望你先做統整剛剛有講有些大型現在只有最大型的相對優渥的企業有條件可以發這個東西可是台灣其實我想部長應該非常了解啦中小企業為主微型企業其實是最多的那這件事有沒有機會做突破那怎麼來做突破給一點小建議比如說建議加大工資我剛剛為什麼要問舉例"},{"start":10354.207,"end":10377.14,"text":"至少我要從鼓勵願意配合勞動部政策方向的企業我總該標舉一下、獎勵一下吧。對不對?迎賀揚善從揚善開始然後逐步往前推本期是接受用一步一步的方式讓勞權進步的但是至少要看到進步的方向跟進步的成果所以第一個我們希望未來這個颱風降因為我們也講了這個是為了安全的考量"},{"start":10377.7,"end":10389.566,"text":"這不純然只是單純說他今天沒有上班沒有對價這個問題希望勞動部針對這件事情有一個檢討跟推動的方向好不好這第一個第二個這個剛剛有蠻多人今天在質詢的時候跟您討論這個有關薪資的問題那麼其實主計總署的統計其實我們的實質薪資啊實質薪資開始出現負成長的一個狀況當然你可以講說因為是通貨膨脹或怎麼樣"},{"start":10401.092,"end":10415.65,"text":"但是其實大家要生活要面對的當然就是用實質薪資來做計算才是貼近真實狀況的一個狀況的一個比較貼近一個真實的一個狀況那麼5月17雖然大家都關注立法院的這個衝突但是其實勞工團體在5月17有召開記者會的"},{"start":10417.752,"end":10442.679,"text":"他們有提出了一部分的訴求我們今天在這個質詢的過程中跟部長來做個政策對話其實蠻重要的就是大家希望說這個加班費的費率可以做有效的調漲現在講平日的加班費就是延長工作時間1.33再延長之後就1.66如果在一例休息日加班就是2.33跟2.66有沒有機會再往上調?這個部長有沒有接到這樣的訴求?保安部有沒有這樣的規劃?"},{"start":10444.748,"end":10467.364,"text":"委員,這很好,牽涉到勞基法的修法啦。對,對。就勞基法的修法,就修一法動全身。這是大工程。我同意嘛。是,對,我們要顯現言義好不好。好,我們先做政策對話好不好。但是我希望可以,我想很多的勞工團體也希望看到部長的態度啦。勞動部有沒有打算往這個方向來推動,再給勞工朋友多一點的溫暖。"},{"start":10468.024,"end":10485.439,"text":"好不好這部長第一個是加班費費率的提升問題我們希望知道勞動部的態度第二個是加班補修的比例問題啊您可以看到這個表格寫得非常清楚平時加班費1比1.33休息日加班是1比2.33但是加班換補修啊當然就是1比1嘛"},{"start":10485.999,"end":10505.771,"text":"那1比1的時候其實很多實務上這個在做勞資雙方在談判的時候勞方處於弱勢所以就各種實務的操作軟硬兼施就要求變成說加班換補修啊那我本來拿加班費我可以拿1.33拿1.66可是我補修的時候被迫1比1啊那其實是不對的嘛"},{"start":10506.109,"end":10531.519,"text":"既然他是要超時出勤應該連補休也應該比照1.33或1.66對不對比如說這個連續加班3天換4天補休這樣子比較合理嘛要跟加班費的比例要一次嘛這個同樣牽涉到勞基法的修正對不對部長所以這件事情加班費率的提升跟補休比例的這個正義希望勞動部做個政策研討提出具體的方向可以嗎"},{"start":10532.099,"end":10545.142,"text":"好今天時間有限那適用期的部分我們用書面的方式也請勞動部提供修法意見好不好好部長辛苦了謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員的發言接下來請麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席有請部長請何部長"},{"start":10563.544,"end":10576.637,"text":"部長好,想要請教部長一下南向政策產學合作推動很久了就是針對就是國際專班主要就是栽培南向政策產業還有我們"},{"start":10579.18,"end":10603.261,"text":"國人的人力嚴重的缺工所以呢目前我們國家的缺工就是因為希望更多的就是產學合作的學生過來但是勞工就業環境不紮以及低薪的問題讓我們本國的勞工就是有很多相關的工作沒辦法去做請教一下說我們要招攬外"},{"start":10603.982,"end":10615.394,"text":"提升了期望就是填補這些缺口但是呢有助於我國就業的環境優化嗎這樣的部長你同意嗎"},{"start":10617.243,"end":10637.962,"text":"跟委員報告這是教育部跟僑委會啦是但是說因為希望就是用這樣子的合作嘛對但是就是因為產業需求人口的就是市場的需缺很多所以但是我們要如何去做一個連結所以說我們不能說因為這個是僑委會的當然當然當然但是呢因為我們也希望就是產學合作嘛"},{"start":10643.807,"end":10668.233,"text":"對,所以要怎麼樣做一個連結避免就是我們的外僑生就變剝削所以這個部分﹖對啊,也要防止這個部分是啊,所以我們就是針對外僑生我們大量的就是去東南亞就進來我們臺灣的我們越南是最多嘛所以說希望這個部分我們要如何"},{"start":10669.173,"end":10692.18,"text":"要優化就業也要有優質也要有說讓大家就是不被剝削大家才有願意留下來是當然當然對所以說我們是有怎麼樣去做這樣子的一個合作機制跟僑委會我們部長這邊有沒有什麼想法我當然我想他這個"},{"start":10694.241,"end":10713.977,"text":"我覺得我可以來提醒他們就是我們這些跨部會在平台會議的時候我們來提醒他們要注意這一個學校在引進的時候跟企業的合作端的時候是不是有不當剝削的情況發生這些可能要做一些就業保障就是要提醒因為共同合作"},{"start":10717.079,"end":10742.22,"text":"提醒是你的部署,其他人提醒也是,對的,我要怎麼樣是達成共同合作,這個才真正的是保障外國人在臺灣,就是就學跟就業,這個部分就是希望部長你協助。還有針對就是僑生,僑生在臺灣畢業,照現在的規定企業想要"},{"start":10743.041,"end":10750.763,"text":"聘用我們僑生必須達到就是收支基本額新台幣500萬以上還有營業額到1000萬以上進入口的時機總值也要美金100萬以上還有一些或代理用金達到美金40萬以上的門檻"},{"start":10768.308,"end":10784.697,"text":"才能請我們的僑生留下來工作這個造成很多的老闆的困擾因為我們台中很多中小企業他們覺得說我們台灣有這樣的南上政策希望就是更多的人進來我們要留產"},{"start":10785.757,"end":10808.789,"text":"但是門檻太高,大家就是留不住,這樣子的話變成我們大家去用臺灣人民的納稅錢來去補助外朝生來這邊讀書但是都是幫別人來去栽培人才,但是沒辦法留住人才這個門檻是不是說我們的部長這邊可以放寬"},{"start":10810.87,"end":10824.456,"text":"這個我們有在考慮,我們有在研討,研究中。而且我們未來還規劃,我在業務報告有講,就是推動個人工作許可給我們的僑外生個人工作許可,讓他就留在台灣了這樣子。"},{"start":10825.316,"end":10826.437,"text":"我們來跟這個僑委會一起討論,然後我會來push這件事好嗎?"},{"start":10845.592,"end":10850.956,"text":"拜託我們部長因為事實上每一個人來這邊就是要來這邊讀書想要留才也是很多企業他們很缺工也缺人才但是我們門檻要太高了大家又沒辦法留才"},{"start":10862.483,"end":10878.183,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10878.263,"end":10893.247,"text":"所以希望我們勞動部這邊好好就是怎麼樣讓放寬讓我們企業可以找到人才不會把企業就往外流往外變成我們台灣就沒有企業了大家就沒有工作了這個部分就是我們部長好好去協助謝謝,謝謝部長謝謝麥玉珍委員接下來請陳亭飛委員發言"},{"start":10912.287,"end":10915.309,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長,請何部長部長我想在這個4月22號的時候經濟委員會有特地安排部長到我們台南經濟部長跟台南的產業園區還有工業區去做座談然後當時候其實與會的所有傳產"},{"start":10942.622,"end":10963.465,"text":"他們重點就是一個缺工缺工然後再加班的時數的問題我想這個都是他們現在其實非常急需當他們想去拿更多訂單的時候沒有人他們完全動不了"},{"start":10964.721,"end":10975.612,"text":"他說他每一次有辦法去跟人家談到訂單的時候他必須要再返回來去思考一下我有沒有辦法能力否則違約很慘欸"},{"start":10978.715,"end":10994.984,"text":"對所以這個部分是我們到底現在政府應該怎麼去幫忙我們的產業界去處理的我們的部長新官上任有沒有好的方向有沒有好的主張我們該怎麼去做這個委員報告這一個也是總統520就職員說有特別要我們促進幫忙產業協助解決缺工的問題"},{"start":11006.963,"end":11031.154,"text":"那其實就是剛剛我回答那個蔓玉珍委員的時候就是說我們那個橋外生評選其實這個我們在考我們已經在研究要放寬了就是包括他的門檻打開配額的門檻打開然後那個雇主的資格也放寬所以甚至未來進一步規劃個人工作許可就讓他留下來所以這個這一塊的補充會是一個蠻大的一個蠻大的一塊"},{"start":11035.876,"end":11063.887,"text":"那目前部長你有沒有曾經去估算過現在產業界跟經濟部好好的實際盤點需要的人才他的缺工數到底現在是多少現在奇怪的是失業的有可是缺工的也有那到底這當中怎麼把這樣的一個所謂的一個賣取的部分做到最佳"},{"start":11065.246,"end":11091.744,"text":"這到底我們要怎麼做?對,我們這最主要確實是要跨部會解決啦就是我們跟經濟部本來現在已經有平台在對接啦對,那只是說這個沒合上我那一天問了國發會,國發會說我們有一個所謂的人才的一個平台各部會在這裡面,就是重點產業及重大投資跨部會人力供需合作平台,然後"},{"start":11092.364,"end":11113.132,"text":"都會定期開會那我就說你的定期開會就是勞動部、經濟部跟教育部那這三個部門請問教育部如何提供人才勞動部如何提供我們的勞工然後我們的經濟部如何所謂的我的需求"},{"start":11114.392,"end":11128.738,"text":"這三方怎麼做一個比較好的溝通如果說我們從過去到現在開了十幾次會我問了國發會主委他說副主委他說開了十幾次會我說那十幾次會請問你們延商到什麼"},{"start":11133.025,"end":11156.335,"text":"其實委員有一步一步的在解決裝難你看像去年就開了製造業、農業還有營造業的已經放了大概3萬多人進來了那現在就是我要突破的是說我們在這一塊這是移工嘛你說的是移工對啊你說的是移工重點就是說我們也不能都只用移工來解決缺工"},{"start":11156.795,"end":11175.302,"text":"我們這個平台是我們教育部的人才培育到底怎麼跟產業做一個最好的一些狀況對就是說我們除了剛剛說的橋外生、移工第三我們國內的人才還有我們的勞工"},{"start":11177.743,"end":11200.973,"text":"這是不同的喔這是不同的領域喔我們為什麼在這個平台當中要定期去開會是我們要不斷的盤整我們要不斷盤整也就是盤整的部分是我們到底經濟部我們有沒有請他盤整過經濟部你到底缺多少工經濟部你到底缺多少人才這個數字有沒有出來"},{"start":11202.786,"end":11227.463,"text":"這數字有沒有出來就是說經濟部你有沒有盤整這些產業界你缺了多少人才你到底缺了多少的勞工白領跟藍領到底缺了多少當我們沒有這些數字的時候我們怎麼去把所謂的橋外生把這個移工把國內的人才然後能夠在這個平台當中坦開心胸"},{"start":11228.243,"end":11253.024,"text":"要求勞動部、要求經濟部、要求教育部、要求所有各個部門所以我一個建議我覺得我們先要盤整我們要盤整各個產業界的需求你沒有盤整現在其實我們變成說大家都在搶工"},{"start":11255.356,"end":11284.753,"text":"尤其當我們半導體需要人才的時候會有一個磁吸把所有傳產都磁吸到他身上所以到底傳產缺多少工我們半導體缺多少工我們的高科技產業缺多少工我們是不是可以在這個平台當中在第一優先尤其未來我們的賴總統說要AI要發展AI那AI我們有多少人才會不會又再發生磁吸"},{"start":11286.024,"end":11297.926,"text":"所以我們拜託部長就是現在520之後大家都信任了部會首長我們要怎麼在這個平台把這樣的問題很具體的提出來"},{"start":11299.807,"end":11315.403,"text":"我覺得還是重要的我們先盤整我們的缺工我們的白領藍領所缺的人才到底有多少才來做所謂的需求的整合這樣才會有方向謝謝"},{"start":11318.904,"end":11338.484,"text":"謝謝陳廷飛委員的發言現在處理臨時提案總共有一案請宣讀考量勞動部會同人事行政總副及工程會在合作加強針對各機關宣導之時程及成效設定上予以更進一步明確方可將修改政府機關構運用勞務承攬參考原則"},{"start":11340.846,"end":11369.833,"text":"所欲保障公部門承攬勞工勞動權益之用意在真正落實於114年度公務特種基金及所屬營業事業預算之勞務採購預算編列規劃當中原此特決議因素於一個月內辦理完畢針對各機關之有效宣導作業事後並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、盧先一、蘇清泉宣讀完畢"},{"start":11372.054,"end":11395.351,"text":"請問行政單位有沒有意見是主席我們在勞動部來表達一個意見謝謝陳委員等的提案我們這裡可不可以有一個簡單幾個文字幫我們增加一下就是倒數第二行部分決議因素與期限一個月內邀請人事行政總署及工程會嚴厲完成針對各機關之有效宣導作業"},{"start":11396.82,"end":11411.65,"text":"那也跟委員辦公室也溝通過了好,那請問委員,在場委員OK啦,好,那就照文字修正通過那臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請洪孟楷委員發言來,主席謝謝,麻煩請何部長請何部長"},{"start":11426.874,"end":11452.837,"text":"委員好 何部長第一天來立法院備詢但之前你是用其他的身份不過我想以勞動部長身份第一天我必須要說剛剛看了你接受幾個委員的備詢我覺得你還沒有準備好實在話講為什麼陳廷飛委員、民進黨委員剛剛問的那個問題各產業缺工的人數哪一個部會有整理了"},{"start":11457.095,"end":11478.893,"text":"國發會整理了可以問一下國發會Google一下就Google得到國發會就有講經濟部各產業缺工現況國發會每三年會做一次報告就有把重點的產業做出來缺工狀況昨天本席在經濟委員會諮詢國發會副主委的時候也有問到相關的問題"},{"start":11480.074,"end":11508.152,"text":"IC產業或是AI產業現在缺工的狀況差不多兩萬五千人各其他行業也有其他的缺工人才所以這個部分可以跨部會了解當然勞動部重要的工作在於是很多委員都有問到年金改革今天我剛看到一個標題寫說撥補就是改革這是現在我們新任部長所講的"},{"start":11510.826,"end":11537.243,"text":"所以意思是您宣告有可能在您任內不會推動年金改革是這樣嗎這句話撥補就是改革撥補就是改革所以不會有其他的工作我們這四年來不是四年就是未來就是說我們會持續推動撥補的改革持續推動撥補的改革就撥多撥少但不會做其他的部分是不是"},{"start":11538.991,"end":11566.239,"text":"我們會有開源的一些做法啦2024年2月29日前任部長許明春他上專訪的時候講勞保缺口不能只靠撥補解決問題還是要改革結果新任部長第一天到立法院講說缺口就是撥補解決問題"},{"start":11569.366,"end":11598.485,"text":"沒有其他方式了不會要改革了所以我就不禁好奇啊之前一直傳說勞動部長有可能許民春會持續留任但到最後最後一刻變成您是不是因為他講了這句話跟現在新任總統的方向不一致所以就換一個可以貫徹新任總統意志的人所以新任總統的方向就是勞保缺口就是靠撥補就是不用做其他改革是這樣嗎"},{"start":11601.701,"end":11622.691,"text":"對啊,這就是我現在的做法好,非常好,留下記錄但是我們也要看到是說您真的認為說現在的這個年金相關的制度都沒有任何需要再調整或是討論改變的地方嗎?賴清德總統之前在選總統的時候有講過當然他講的有一些話很好聽啦有政府,勞保不會倒"},{"start":11623.331,"end":11635.206,"text":"有政府給大家靠但是他也有提過說要社會共識來尋求解決問題的方式那其中我們有提到是說這個提波率6%的部分到目前為止也都沒有調整"},{"start":11636.742,"end":11661.861,"text":"這是另外一個部分的問題這是勞退勞退條例的部分能不能再提高要修法是這要修進行修法我們會來研議處理會有研議處理是不是所以您認為怎麼樣的一個方向是大家覺得合理有可行的因為今天也在做任何政策對話所以我也要瞭解您新任部長的一個想法你覺得之前大家也都有提過"},{"start":11663.763,"end":11691.379,"text":"勞團也呼籲提高僱主的提撥率那現在6%之前的講法說6%是最低標準啦你們可以用勞資雙方來去協商你們也可以提高提撥率啊但我們現在有沒有掌握本時間想請教另外一個統計掌握的問題有沒有掌握我們目前全國的企業裡面哪一些企業他的提撥率高於6%有多少比例的企業是現在提撥率高於6%的"},{"start":11694.502,"end":11694.987,"text":"多少比例?"},{"start":11697.148,"end":11725.704,"text":"現在的提撥率其實只要是企業的部分其實應該都有提撥吧企業都有啊是嗎6%是最低標準嗎是我們法令規定嘛而且是一定要說一定要嘛但我們之前一直提過勞團一直呼籲說要提高那你們一直強調是說6%只是最低標準你們協商就可以提高那本席現在問題就是那到底有哪個企業是透過協商之後提高提撥率的"},{"start":11726.745,"end":11730.327,"text":"部長,您心目中的目標覺得應該要提高到多少才算是您心中的目標?"},{"start":11748.783,"end":11759.79,"text":"委員這個部分我們還必須跟這個勞資雙方我們要來協商啦所以你覺得現在6%是要提高的但是你目前要提高到多少你還沒有一個定見"},{"start":11761.107,"end":11779.465,"text":"不是沒有訂建是我們還必須討論還是不方便把部長的底牌先出來讓我私下跟您報告好了不要私下我們現在私下很怕都是密會協商我們大家都希望公開透明是是是那部長"},{"start":11780.987,"end":11801.667,"text":"而且我要跟委員報告喔 這個也要考慮整個景氣變動的因素啦就是說我們可能要這個讓 過去蔡英文政府的時候不是講說臺灣景氣史上最好股市兩萬多點 是啊那這樣的話依您講到景氣如果以現在政府大內宣的狀況我覺得"},{"start":11803.933,"end":11809.619,"text":"當然現在我們是準備很積極來推這件事情積極會多久內會有我們盡量不要多用文青式的語言來立法院我想他就不是我們是公開討論政策您能夠推動能夠負責"},{"start":11826.445,"end":11852.463,"text":"不要預期在野黨給你掌聲但是我相信在野黨一定理性的監督當然不會惡意的來阻撓但是既然講出來我們時間點就要做那另外因為時間到但我最後一分鐘本期從第10屆就一直在推動外送平台跟外送員的保障專訪是第10屆的時候我就有送出相關的草案第11屆我現在也已經送出來"},{"start":11853.237,"end":11871.889,"text":"那剛剛有委員提到就是因為現在兩大平台業者龍頭也要做合併購那在不管併購與否有沒有成案可是對於外送員14萬名的外送員勞工的保障餐廳業者的保障以及消費者權益的保障都應該要有一個專法"},{"start":11873.57,"end":11897.14,"text":"那對於各縣市現在也都有訂立安全指引但不管指引再怎麼訂立就是比不上正式立法的約束力我先肯定一下前任部長他至少在我講的時候說一個禮拜內要把過去跟外送平台還有相關開會的記錄上網一個禮拜內確實做到了本席也看到了但是還是不夠在於是"},{"start":11897.64,"end":11926.878,"text":"不能每一次跟外送平台的溝通都要靠部長或是都要靠我們官員約他們來喝咖啡而是應該要真的確立有一個最基本的一個保障跟專法想請教部長您的態度當然能不能支持這是我們要去這個努力的方向努力的方向所以部長是支持如果說我們能夠有一個專法外送平台專法因為現在大家也覺得是說外送員不是"},{"start":11928.24,"end":11947.208,"text":"我們之前所提的這個勞基法保障的勞工他算比較非典型勞工非典型勞工我們就應該要有彈性的保障所以我們才強調是說有外送員及外送平台的相關專法能夠保障外送員、保障餐廳、保障消費者權益"},{"start":11948.107,"end":11963.476,"text":"對,不過我還是要強調一點我們推動專法目的是要幫協助外送委員可以跟強勢的平台談判要對這個有幫助啦那外送委員他們彼此之間是不是有共識這個要考慮你總不可能另一個專法"},{"start":11964.642,"end":11982.083,"text":"本席其實我說實在話我覺得說不是說讓誰哪一方有強勢而是保障最基本大家的合理的權益這兩者不一樣我沒有說一定是站在如果說哪一天外送員的力量大到是說平台受不了"},{"start":11982.603,"end":12006.676,"text":"我也覺得應該要有平衡但重點在於是什麼重點在於是現在很明顯的就是平台的權益大兩個龍頭他們的議價空間他們的制定規則的能力已經大過很多那如果說未來併購之後變成一家龍頭我剛剛也詢問過我們公平會主委公平會主委就是說世界各國到目前為止還沒有哪一家獨大的外送平台"},{"start":12007.642,"end":12029.275,"text":"那你如果說去找其他產業的話就變成是寡占市場、壟斷市場所以部長專法的部分你的態度說會努力本席已經提出來了我相信有其他委員版本我們正式排審的時候我要看到勞動部保障勞工的決心可以嗎?"},{"start":12031.83,"end":12048.158,"text":"最後要回答一下說那個好你沒有錄到音這樣子不行來按個麥克風講一下好真的啦沒有啦我要結束了我要結束了我知道就是最後那個部長說好但是因為你剛剛沒有麥克風這個好都不能留下記錄部長我們加油好不好"},{"start":12057.708,"end":12065.294,"text":"好,因為時間的關係後面還有很多委員要發言好接下來請廖偉祥委員發言主席好,有請我們何部長"},{"start":12083.475,"end":12093.409,"text":"你好部長好,恭喜你喔那我也要這個剛好我今天準備的題目也順著剛剛洪偉仁的來繼續喔那部長我們看一下我們的簡報喔"},{"start":12095.564,"end":12114.014,"text":"這是網路上一名外送員公布他在上一年的冬天霸王級寒流來的時候外出跑外送的收入截圖那我想要請教部長你知道這個收入是怎麼算出來的嗎?左邊這邊你知道這個收入怎麼算出來的嗎?"},{"start":12115.962,"end":12141.827,"text":"這是他們的營業資料吧對 這個應該是他們的演算法計算出來的吧演算法計算出來嘛 對不對好那他這裡大概是從12月21號週四喔跑到12月23號456大概三天的時間喔好您剛剛說演算法算出來的好沒關係這是由於這樣的機制很複雜又不透明憑良心講我也不知道怎麼算出來的所以演算法算出來的確是一個說法喔"},{"start":12142.327,"end":12158.784,"text":"所以部長不能確定內容也很合理那這也是外送員目前面臨的困境之一那依照他該篇文章的所敘述說大概該名外送員大概每天會跑到12個小時總收入是8895元那總單數是132單那平均算起來每單是67元那部長你覺得這樣算多嗎?"},{"start":12171.033,"end":12187.221,"text":"我可以請署長回答一下因為他們的計算就是以送單的是兩家業者不太一樣有的是用像熊貓他就用里程數還有包括他接單費但是uber確實是依據他不同的時段有一個特別的費用"},{"start":12188.081,"end":12201.068,"text":"那他們每個地方都有沒關係我先問你的問題比較簡單我知道他們有一些不同的計算方式那他每單這裡看到每單是67元你們覺得多還是少以熊夢來講他們起跳是40塊"},{"start":12204.385,"end":12230.304,"text":"但是就不知道他每一單的距離跟他的遠近那我告訴你每一單67人還是因為這個霸王級的寒流喔點外送的人暴增然後這個外送員的人數又偏少的情況之下他也算是一年中很少數的高峰所以67人每一單算是少數的高峰喔如果換成一般的時間外送員收入會更少喔更何況還沒有包含這個外送員的油資"},{"start":12231.986,"end":12242.24,"text":"設備攤提、罰單、不慎損毀餐點或是沒收到小費等等對不對好那我想要請問部長你覺得每單外送費用多少錢才比較合理啊"},{"start":12246.326,"end":12262.018,"text":"委員這個齁其實就是他們大概是爭議的核心啦因為他們就是平台他們有他們的掌握的資料所以他們用他們的演算法算出他們自認為合理的數字可是對方上演的感受來講他們覺得這樣不合理"},{"start":12262.358,"end":12279.709,"text":"好沒關係部長我覺得你講話有點繞來繞去的我剛剛問說這一單你覺得一單大概要多少錢你覺得比較合理好那我告訴你部長很明顯目前依照外送員工會的自行估計應該是要參考基本薪資的情況之下"},{"start":12280.729,"end":12299.775,"text":"每單不應低於61元因為他大概一個小時跑三單而且我說的是這個還算是比較巔峰的時期那如果他少一點的時候一個小時可能沒有這麼多單對不對是吧其實我覺得61元都算低了算起來你乘以三單的話183塊對不對"},{"start":12302.782,"end":12324.37,"text":"是不是?所以算是很低喔?所以在現行情況之下而且這180幾塊是不含我剛剛講的他所有的設備攤提油脂等等的狀況但目前的現行情況之下以後外送費可能會越來越低你也認同嗎?因為你有點頭你覺得有可能會越來越低有可能好謝謝部長那原因下一張我來說明一下"},{"start":12327,"end":12349.375,"text":"欸抱歉你再上一張好了我再順便講一下這個你可以看到國外的幾個地區喔這個外送員最低報酬的規定包含這個西雅圖他有說不得低於最低薪資那德國的部分還有扣除勞務成本後這個機車耗損不得低於基本薪資還有使用專法並準用最低薪資這個基本薪資這加拿大喔還有這個紐約州最低時薪2023年的時候5.4美元然後2024年上調至18美元喔"},{"start":12357.32,"end":12370.292,"text":"還有聯合國國際勞工組織報告外送員因為需要自付設備保險稅務因此至少應該為基本薪資的1.5倍這我給你參考一下這個國際上各個地方下一頁"},{"start":12372.694,"end":12399.564,"text":"基本上剛剛講到為什麼未來可能會越來越低因為兩大外送平台有可能要合併他現在是購這個他等於是已經併購了可是現在在公平會嘛對不對那不管他未來合不合併啦但即便喔如果未來有可能合併或不合併的情況之下其實現行雙方實質上能夠透過商業的這個整合做出準聯合行為外送員就會更沒有溢價能力了"},{"start":12400.544,"end":12422.27,"text":"那外送費可能會調得更低那這部分部長打算怎麼因應是就是因為有這個合併的衝擊他都會對消費者跟這一個外送人的權益產生影響所以我們已經要求公平會他在合併的過程一定要會我們勞動部的意見那麼我會親自帶領然後來反映意見是好謝謝部長所以我要講喔"},{"start":12423.789,"end":12447.864,"text":"我就想到你會這樣講但是你沒有說不要說未來有沒有合併的情況你現在要介入阿其實以Uber為例喔去年就已經差點發生平台片面將外送費改為0元的誇張情形未來市場如果獨佔後情況也只有更嚴重那就即便現在還沒有獨佔都已經有這樣的狀況他們是不是也應該要被保障喔這些外送員"},{"start":12448.97,"end":12471.63,"text":"所以無論部長你覺得應該要怎麼因應目前這個中央都沒有統一的專法只能夠靠地方的自治條例來約束可以說是各吹各的調而且其實這個情況還更有可能發生在臺北和新北跨區外送卻受到不同的自治的規則約束的狀況部長覺得這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":12476.302,"end":12503.8,"text":"這確實在各縣市的這樣子的一個狀況我們要有效來統合然後把這一個中央跨部會也不是只有縣市的問題其實還有我們中央跨部會的整合要處理所以這個外送專法能不能規範到我們整個中央相關的主管機關都一致的用這個專法來處理這個也是我們要考慮的因素因為平台的問題就出在它沒有一個主管機關"},{"start":12504.861,"end":12506.623,"text":"所以你說讓這個專法有效,所以代表你會支持要訂定這個專法對不對?"},{"start":12524.916,"end":12541.989,"text":"我覺得我們可以來討論好不好委員 我支持你們關懷外送員的權益的這樣子的努力啦 這個是非常值得肯定的請部長可不可以明白的宣誓立場 然後也告訴我國進15萬的外送員 你知不支持透過訂專法讓全國統一"},{"start":12544.671,"end":12545.592,"text":"這些內容都是我們要努力的方向"},{"start":12567.406,"end":12592.46,"text":"哇你這個部長你這樣子沒有回答問題啊你還是要講你支不支持訂定專法我們支持這樣的討論方向沒有細節你覺得怎麼做更好這個是可以未來一條一條來討論的可是你必須表明的立場你要跟這個所有人講你要表明立場你支不支持我們所有這個推動外送員專法這個部分我們支持這樣的討論方向啊支持討論方向還是支持推動外送員專法"},{"start":12593.16,"end":12617.397,"text":"就是我認為推動外送人專法要能夠有效整合啦 這個這是前提 這還有 這有前提啦那你所謂的整合是哪幾個部分的整合?對 因為一個專法有時候只有一個主管機關啦 你能不能 就是我勞動部管的能不能規範到公平會跟交通部那邊 這是一個大問題所以我們要來討論 如果你有 可以明白宣示你的立場 這件事情就可以往上行 可以跨部會的整合"},{"start":12617.937,"end":12640.176,"text":"因為你這邊我特別勞動部就是外送員專法嘛我剛剛也把所有數據算出來很清楚喔這個外送員現在面臨的狀況是什麼所以也希望部長可以理解還是真的可以理解到他們現在的情況是很需要我們中央可以統一的專法來幫他們其實委員我們跟他們非常密切的保持聯絡5月29號甚至還要推動他們勞資雙方談判呢"},{"start":12643.119,"end":12661,"text":"另外一個問題,我是想要問yes or no,你要不要支持推動外送員專法?我說我支持這樣的討論方向,那我們一起來努力好嗎?哇,部長你不能用這句話一直打太極啊。部長拜託你講一下,那我可不可以定調你並沒有支持要推動外送員專法?"},{"start":12662.281,"end":12663.802,"text":"我們可以再來討論怎麼創造多引好不好?"},{"start":12696.219,"end":12699.483,"text":"謝謝謝謝廖偉祥發言接下來請吳春成委員發言有請何部長請何部長"},{"start":12711.553,"end":12713.635,"text":"整個剛才在提到的下一個缺工的問題只是冰山之一角"},{"start":12739.616,"end":12761.288,"text":"其實深層的是臺灣的人口結構的問題高齡化、少子化但是政府並沒有完善的配套措施所以現在有點爛攤子是勞動部在收爛攤子現在政府對於這個高齡化只有福利"},{"start":12762.428,"end":12787.543,"text":"所以幾乎的費用都到衛福部去了到衛福部80%其他部門就是只要遇到高齡就視而不見與我無關但是我在看整個面對未來這可能會成為人口一半的高齡社會倒三角形勞動部反而是要負擔主責"},{"start":12789.204,"end":12789.224,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":12809.48,"end":12831.765,"text":"有對於這個人口未來要勞動部要扮演的角色你不是配合者你可能要變成主導者要把這個棒子搶回來這個是大家都在擔心的事情撫養比我們現在這個高齡者就是當分子嘛被撫養的然後工作的人口當分母嘛"},{"start":12832.225,"end":12856.667,"text":"因為少子化,所以分母就越來越小。因為高齡化,所以分子就越來越大。目前是4比1,4個撫養一個。到2040年會變成2比1,兩個撫養一個。到2057年會1比1。接下來分子就會大於分母。這叫崩潰的時代。那年輕人都被壓垮了,都沒未來了啦。"},{"start":12858.062,"end":12876.3,"text":"那怎麼解決我現在沒有看到我沒有看到政府針對這樣的大家學者都知道這個是大家都知道的事情我沒有看到有什麼解決那我在提倘的壯時代其實為這個而來怎麼解決就是把分子拉下來當分母把分子壯起來"},{"start":12878.481,"end":12892.612,"text":"因為他繼續成為一個生產者 成為一個勞動者 然後消費者 有活躍的第三人生 因為現在人都很長壽 我們現在搞了臥床八年 人家北歐國家目標是兩週"},{"start":12894.173,"end":12917.484,"text":"也就是說以未來的老人只有兩週當老人其他的時間都叫撞世代啦繼續可以勞動可以生產可以消費那這樣子的分母就很強壯起來這撞台灣嘛台灣才會強壯起來嘛而且世代會共融所以要解決這個問題我們現在最大的問題都是引法思維"},{"start":12918.644,"end":12933.531,"text":"政府這幾年各部門當中包括行政院對高齡什麼科技弄了都把只要你過了60歲以後就沒有政策只剩下一個政策叫長照政策養生養病養老但是這些人會有30年未來"},{"start":12936.693,"end":12965.652,"text":"在沙漠裡面所以我們要把它翻轉成為壯世代那有時間我再跟部長再找時間那壯世代呢我在這個立法院也成立了壯世代政策產業發展促進會那非常深大的有63個立委加入跨黨派的是這個議題是不分黨派的我們都要一起支持所以也請勞動部你們如果要推動這個政策我們可以很多的各部會都來支持你"},{"start":12968.153,"end":12994.821,"text":"然後勞動部目前有推了這項55plus壯士代的就業促進措施還有5050壯士代的就業網絡合作計畫那我看到這個各地的分署都在積極來推動這兩件事情但是除了這兩件事情可能要再更深化一點所以那個巡迴部長很可愛他說他要做壯士代代言人"},{"start":12995.981,"end":12996.061,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":13015.069,"end":13030.369,"text":"那另外一個勞基法的修訂那我也跟那個王振旭委員我們聯合修訂了這個勞基法54條讓65歲以後不是強制退休而是可以透過勞資的協議當中得延長值"},{"start":13034.494,"end":13054.81,"text":"希望部長支持而且勞基法對於退休的規定現在實在是太沒人性了也不敢太早退休然後退休也不行退休以後要回來也很困難導致於這些人龐大的人力我們平均退休60歲60歲現在有600萬人卡在這裡卡在耗損的整個國力"},{"start":13060.115,"end":13061.56,"text":"這個要靠勞基法、靠勞動部來釋放這些勞動力"},{"start":13065.148,"end":13093.365,"text":"好那精進所以不是只有剛才那兩頁那個是究極目前的缺工問題當然更深化的就是要請部長繼續的在勞動部來雇主留用65歲要有獎勵措施要有誘因那同時對勞工也要有誘因要有鼓勵各種的措施要提出來然後這一個"},{"start":13094.566,"end":13113.76,"text":"對於現在缺工的行業當中要積極的來引導這個中高齡的就業協助的各種的措施﹖包括宣傳各種的企業的講座各種的方面那第三個要排除重返職場的困境那事實上這個"},{"start":13115.922,"end":13131.833,"text":"包括個人、很多的這種培訓、個人的生涯的規劃很多人到了50歲以後就抱著代退了代退的、耗損的心力所以像這一方面的"},{"start":13132.894,"end":13156.424,"text":"讓我們的勞動力能夠多方面的開發啦可以多方面的開發那最重要的還是勞基法還有中高齡的這個就業促進法那這個最好能夠改名字叫做壯士代就業促進法既然那個因為中高齡是45歲就叫中高齡這個真的有點太離譜啦出國念書回來都40歲然後45歲就開始輔導代退"},{"start":13159.915,"end":13164.678,"text":"謝謝吳春成委員發言在這邊做一下宣告我們中午不休息直到質詢結束再散會現在請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":13187.365,"end":13189.273,"text":"謝謝主席 每席想邀請何部長"},{"start":13193.683,"end":13221.012,"text":"委員好部長先恭喜你上任上任我最關心的就是我們勞保的基金我們看到2023年勞保基金大概負債13.4兆多比上一年度12.3兆多那是增加了將近7300億換句話說每一個人平均他的背的負債大概是56萬"},{"start":13222.432,"end":13247.946,"text":"那在這種情況之下我沒有看到往前推2020年金算負債是11.5兆那到目前為止因為每一任的部長都會說這個年金會要改革那您新官三任你針對這個議題你要怎麼樣做請教說明委員我剛剛大概已經都有回覆請說明是就是我們會持續進行撥補撥補就是改革"},{"start":13253.479,"end":13255.179,"text":"請你針對議題你現在是勞動部的部長你不是政治的宣傳者"},{"start":13282.587,"end":13285.399,"text":"怎麼說呢?你越撥撥啊!"},{"start":13286.516,"end":13312.989,"text":"你負債越多欸所以你應該要以你勞動部部長的身份去討論我要怎麼樣讓我的勞工能夠安心我的基金能夠增加除了撥補之外還有什麼方法你要宣傳以前沒有以前沒有反而負債沒那麼多你現在負債越來越多你就你現在為什麼要換部長"},{"start":13314.17,"end":13343.015,"text":"就是因為前任的在執行的當中結果論的答案是不佳的所以你應該針對這個議題啊你怎麼來政治宣傳呢對嗎前座說明我跟委員報告我們波普這4年來勞保的基金水位已經創新高了現在是9941億過去而且是還包括了投資收益所以我們其實要進行開源的努力"},{"start":13343.815,"end":13345.416,"text":"這是全國的共識嘛!你不能從勞工的身上去撥皮嘛!"},{"start":13366.111,"end":13366.732,"text":"我們現在用撥部的改革來處理"},{"start":13395.016,"end":13397.698,"text":"接下來本席要請教"},{"start":13419.206,"end":13419.226,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":13433.854,"end":13460.569,"text":"我本期做了一個統計數字會講話平均值我們是只有提高兩趴可是我們的通膨絕對不止這兩趴所以我號稱我們的地心是持續在下降持續在嚴肅的議題所以針對這個部分本期要請教因為我如果以三月份全體受僱的員工的這個部分平均是4.6"},{"start":13461.81,"end":13461.91,"text":"請出說明。"},{"start":13481.497,"end":13493.647,"text":"當然委員 這個所謂這個加薪追不上通膨 這確實是存在的 這個我是很佩服您有觀察到這樣子的現象當然啦 這個通膨的問題是跨部會要去解決的啦 這我會來持續跟行政院反映 因為這牽涉到央行的政策 牽涉到我們整個跨部會的問題"},{"start":13506.718,"end":13513.155,"text":"我也支持你要去跟上聯繫這也是我一直建議這個政府你不要"},{"start":13514.434,"end":13514.734,"text":"第三個議題"},{"start":13544.602,"end":13566.747,"text":"大家都非常關心兩個外送平台要合併今天在我們經濟委員會我們的公交會公平會的這個主委他說了他認定因為目前這兩家平台是佔全國平台最多的他也認為這個是獨佔"},{"start":13570.258,"end":13584.268,"text":"會成立,獨佔會成立那因為這兩家是最大嘛商業我們要讚許他但是問題是他如果兩家併起來的時候他現在送送給公民會那公民會會不會同意有四大項第一個我們整個經濟體系"},{"start":13588.953,"end":13603.14,"text":"第二個會不會達到聯合行為的一個壟斷那現在兩家是最大而且公平會認為他是獨立最大那兩個都是獨立最大兩個加起來當然是巨數啊那所以這個聯合行為哇這個精髓就到了所以這個也是在他們事項在審查的項目之一這是剛剛我們在這個經濟委員會所討論接下來就你的問題了"},{"start":13619.943,"end":13648.019,"text":"公平會的主委他說他會找你因為勞動部我要為我們外送平台外送員要請命外送員要怎麼辦所以這個剛剛我們在經濟委員會我問了公平會公平會主委也說外送平台的這個外送員他們的權益也會納在他們是否同意合併的條件之一我把這個備份告訴你"},{"start":13649.7,"end":13671.075,"text":"所以你必須要站在我們勞工的這個立場他會找你這個是也就是跨部會去討論所以到時候我建請我們部長你一定要堅持在我們勞工的這個立場權力的立場好不好這一點是非常非常的重要所以"},{"start":13671.895,"end":13699.684,"text":"我今天這三項的議題來跟你做討論我們發覺到現在少子化而且勞工這個老闆找不到工我們現在是缺工缺工你應該知道這個原因吧這個社會面向是缺工但是不要搞到無人可用的境界現在是缺工如果持續惡化下去"},{"start":13700.796,"end":13723.846,"text":"不要走到無人可用的這個境界所以中高年齡的勞工對我們來講是我們的寶貝啊這些沒有功勞又苦啦中高年齡的勞工是我們的寶貝我們要怎麼樣穩住他們我們要怎麼樣鼓勵我們的新娘我們的青年勞工他願意要加入這個陣容鞏固我們的中高年齡這個基本法"},{"start":13730.592,"end":13756.359,"text":"的勞工鼓勵我們的青年勞工能夠加入這個社會才不會變成無緣可用的勞工市場啊對不對部長你頻頻的點頭也因為時間的關係我第三個功課我還是要您做功課你把剛才本席第三個議題中高年齡要怎麼穩固它怎麼鼓勵我們青年"},{"start":13757.259,"end":13765.676,"text":"那麼你也想寫書面資料給本席這三個議題我要你的書面資料結論到時候公平會"},{"start":13767.605,"end":13788.131,"text":"這個主委找你的時候你務必一定要站在我們外送平台的外送員的一個權益一定要鞏固住好不好好謝謝委員支持好謝謝楊瓊英委員那也請勞動部、楊委員所需要的資料會後再提供那接下來請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":13795.759,"end":13819.117,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請勞動部長謝謝 請何部長部長無案第一次跟您在質詢台上討論非常的開心那我想要跟部長就直接切入其實我們一直在跟勞動部討論的就是友善的家庭政策如何讓勞工在這個情況下跟部長分享在2023年去年的"},{"start":13819.917,"end":13848.832,"text":"親子天下幾乎是台灣最重要的關於親子議題討論的民間公司的雜誌提到當大家接受問卷調查的時候表示什麼時候你會願意出來工作或是選擇工作的時候友善家庭對您的重要度所謂友善家庭指的是企業的相關勞動措施或是政府的相關勞動補助政策對於勞動的員工非常重要大家認為友善家庭非常重要將近七成"},{"start":13849.352,"end":13868.685,"text":"那所謂的友善家庭到底是什麼意思呢?雜誌上面說了一彈性工時65%企業設置零拖幼兒園47%第三個43%是居家上班確實我們看到來下一頁在勞動部今天的業務報告裡面我們很開心看到部長你有寫到"},{"start":13870.727,"end":13888.708,"text":"將協助勞僱雙方透過居家工作、彈性上下班還有協議調整工時的方式合理安排對勞工有利的最適工時這是在您的業務報告裡面我們非常認同但是我們我想我們彼此都知道另外一個很殘酷的現實臺灣中小企業居多"},{"start":13889.349,"end":13909.184,"text":"那中小企業如何去協助政府或是背負大家的期待那我想要跟部長分享我們目前在第一線看到的狀況目前的五六月其實在所有新聞裡面都有看到長病毒是高峰而一旦班上有長病毒的孩子就要停班停課我想這個部長你是清楚的而且有時候如果你是生了兩個小孩"},{"start":13910.185,"end":13926.18,"text":"或者是A這個小孩剛剛停完7天就過幾天班上又來一個小孩然後於是這樣就一直往後延一直往後延我想這個情況大家都非常清楚所以在目前勞動部相關的所有政策裡面目前或是性供法裡面都只有寫到3歲"},{"start":13927.381,"end":13956.736,"text":"但是我們知道其實小孩在幼兒園階段一直到上小學前甚至其實看到更多的爸媽在告訴我們上小學後6歲到12歲也是很需要非常多所謂臨時的這種工時的調整啦或是居家上班啦或是彈性的工作狀況部長我們當然我剛說在業務報告裡面我們看到勞動部指導這件事情要往這裡走可是往6歲這件事情你覺得我們有沒有可能在未來的工作時日當中我們一起來努力推動這件事情"},{"start":13957.756,"end":13978.626,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13978.706,"end":13984.17,"text":"在前部長這個許民村部長的時候我們就也一直跟部長講這件事情甚至我們拜託許部長跟國營事業討論國營事業先試辦試辦的好處是可以收集企業的相關意見"},{"start":13995.792,"end":14006.275,"text":"當時我們看到目前我們看到勞動部給我們的回覆是說桃機財政部金管會評估可以配合事辦那後續要拜託部長這邊幫我們持續追蹤他們事辦後的狀況因為我再次強調他們的事辦絕對可以給予很多企業作為參考也可以給勞動部作為後續政策調整的參考看到部長點頭謝謝但是我們看到資料裡面呢台糖中油"},{"start":14022.419,"end":14042.095,"text":"臺電臺水回復說如果延長到6歲會增加輪班人力調度增加同仁的負擔會影響業務推動和為民服務的品質我要再次強調就算是國營企業我們當然也認同他們是有困難的這是非常殘酷的現實但是有沒有機會他們也可以再次"},{"start":14042.415,"end":14060.299,"text":"﹗"},{"start":14060.834,"end":14067.82,"text":"我會來跟這一些企業的實施狀況我親自來做一個檢視好嗎跟我們的這個業務單位同仁我們的處長其實他們大概推這個計畫示範已經有一段時間那麼我們當然如何讓企業能夠更願意"},{"start":14080.61,"end":14095.501,"text":"對,這有時候報德勸說啦或各方面的跨部會或跨部會的努力啦那我們之所以說從國營企業就是也許從部長您的角度去跟他們溝通會更為容易然後也可以讓他們的聲音如實的表達給勞動部"},{"start":14097.322,"end":14097.462,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":14123.187,"end":14148.786,"text":"好謝謝陳培宇委員發言接下來請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在接下來請謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員不在接下來請翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員不在接下來請賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請林國成委員發言"},{"start":14156.081,"end":14170.313,"text":"主席請部長請何部長還有另外老保及白局長來有沒有來有有有請白立正局長好部長是"},{"start":14171.84,"end":14196.111,"text":"真的看到你早上在打刑到現在其實立法院一直在藐視國會我看起來一點這個法一點用都沒有為什麼大家立法委員尊重部長部長尊重立法委員基本上都是在談你所以根本藐視國會的問題就沒有不存在的所以我們蠻期待啦我們蠻期待這個真的"},{"start":14199.392,"end":14220.673,"text":"部長跟立法委員彼此之間針對問題要相敬如賓我想沒有任何可以吵的因為部長也為老百姓做事立法委員也是為老百姓在做事所以我第一個還是要恭喜何部長因為我們大家知道你過去"},{"start":14223.036,"end":14241.457,"text":"確確實實你也是在整個勞工多少有參與當然看到你發布我們很高興一個恭喜另外一個就不忍心你跳入火坑來為勞工做事這兩者之間"},{"start":14242.458,"end":14269.788,"text":"我在想都是為勞工都是為勞工所以首先恭喜也有一點不忍但是最後還是要共同為勞工做事謝謝委員我今天要談有兩個問題第一個問題我要請教部長新人有新政那當然過去不管是陳菊也好不管是喜民村也好確確實實對勞工基於第一個尊重跟照顧"},{"start":14270.888,"end":14288.124,"text":"好他照顧那我也要聽聽我們何部長對這個新職你最想推動跟最想做的事能不能用我的時間讓你跟全國的勞工說明你未來最重要要推動的什麼事"},{"start":14289.233,"end":14315.433,"text":"當然委員我其實早上也在業務報告有呈現當然對我來講真的很有榮幸有這個機會然後來為全國廣大的勞工朋友來盡一份心力那這也是我當年從事勞工運動的初衷到現在一如往昔不會變的那跟我委員的討論其實一直有提到我們這個所謂的勞保年改的問題"},{"start":14316.394,"end":14337.076,"text":"那麼我也期待說透過我的努力我能讓全國的勞工朋友放心勞保絕對不會倒,勞保絕對不會破產目前的勞保是相對穩健的那麼這個我是各位委員我想我們都有討論過然後也是我想是全國的勞工朋友最大的期待啦"},{"start":14338.257,"end":14353.982,"text":"其實勞工真的要的不多啦以現在制度來講真的勞工還是體系政府但是我們勞工啊就是一點點保障他就心滿意足以現在的情況來講勞工基本上"},{"start":14357.603,"end":14382.561,"text":"是求個安穩不希望重大的改變這一點我提供給我們何部長做一個政治判斷的一個參考那我現在要來談任何一個政策他要做成決定的時候要把前因後果要很了解這樣才不會誤判才不會誤判所以當然前一段時間一直在講"},{"start":14384.403,"end":14389.586,"text":"這個勞工非常每天工作按時繳錢到最後一天到晚報章雜誌就說勞保什麼時候要倒啊我記得好像十幾年前就要倒到現在還是沒有倒那這個是什麼"},{"start":14400.855,"end":14415.616,"text":"委員聳聽對勞工一點保障都沒有這一點我是覺得那我要請教我要請教到底真正虧損的部分是在臺灣省政府臺民地區的勞保局"},{"start":14416.4,"end":14437.435,"text":"那交給中央政府的時候在84年4月1號健保開始開辦把醫療撥給健保局的時候部長我要提供一個自信根本84年以後勞保是不虧損的希望你回去白警長你們去把這個原因找出來"},{"start":14437.995,"end":14460.792,"text":"真正虧損的地方是臺灣省政府匯率5.5一張保單可以住院可以保障這裡是真正虧損最多那這裡當然因為部長不曉得我要問問白局長到底臺灣省政府交給中央政府的時候你們那個時候有沒有盤點有沒有精算"},{"start":14463.496,"end":14483.448,"text":"委員好 跟委員這邊來做報告 在85年的6月的時候 那時候勞保局改制的時候 當時的勞保基金餘額是1700多億 那當時的確有精算 那因為費率像委員精算 我不是說你們精算 是臺灣省政府交給中央的時候 有沒有精算 有沒有"},{"start":14484.268,"end":14505.193,"text":"跟委員做報告,當時因為勞保財務裡面有針對勞保局的整個資產跟基金都有做報告你也最後再接的啦我坦白跟你講根本沒有精算虧損多少錢你們完全不知道所以那個時候的執政當然現在國民黨也要負責任啦"},{"start":14506.193,"end":14527.473,"text":"你們現在當了政府以後你們當然要概括承受所以這一點當然責任都不能推但是我可以告訴你一個問題根本沒有精算虧多少錢都不知道所以到84年健保播出去以後你們那個時候的虧損的黑洞是非常大的"},{"start":14527.913,"end":14556.776,"text":"所以你們要把這個前因後果把它講清楚所以這個部分我想各黨執政過的都一定要負責任也不能說完全民進黨你現在你是執政黨你要來概括承受但是怎麼樣去交接怎麼樣去做決策勞工的權利是不能去損害的所以這點我要給何部長一個鼓勵也要把真相告訴你把這個查得清清楚楚黑洞"},{"start":14557.376,"end":14581.061,"text":"我坦白講我這個人講話憑良心也不是民進黨造成啦是日月累積勞保照顧勞工而造成可是要把問題找出來不能讓勞工覺得說我每天繳會啊你們又要叫我繳多要領少那過去是領少那個繳少領多所以造成這個問題把它分析出來"},{"start":14581.981,"end":14602.307,"text":"這樣才不會挫折對勞工我有乖乖的繳錢但是你們就不乖乖的給付這一點我希望何部長一定要跟院長講這些事實的真相所以這點我要代替勞工拜託我們何部長這個部分真相一定要把它理清楚好不好好謝謝林國成委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":14611.417,"end":14620.743,"text":"接下來請林黛樺委員、林黛樺委員、林黛樺委員不在。接下來請鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺委員不在。接下來請陳瑩委員發言。好,謝謝趙委員。我們麻煩請何部長。請何部長。"},{"start":14637.577,"end":14656.246,"text":"委員好部長好首先就很高興就是也要誇你一下有這個勇氣跟擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任這個職位那勞動政策呢他攸關全體國民的這個生活水準與健康安全也是我們國家經濟發展與這個國際競爭力"},{"start":14659.648,"end":14660.508,"text":"首先我有八個字要送給部長"},{"start":14675.953,"end":14695.832,"text":"偏聽則廢、兼聽則明所以在過去部長有擔任柯總召的辦公室主任以及八年行政院副秘書長的職務我也見證了這些歲月相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以能出其用"},{"start":14697.253,"end":14700.915,"text":"現在您擔任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考問題應該要如何解決"},{"start":14721.943,"end":14739.813,"text":"那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報"},{"start":14741.094,"end":14761.825,"text":"這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以"},{"start":14762.705,"end":14786.554,"text":"那以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個"},{"start":14790.956,"end":14813.325,"text":"就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為"},{"start":14814.125,"end":14829.087,"text":"你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的"},{"start":14830.984,"end":14857.636,"text":"那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那"},{"start":14858.556,"end":14875.489,"text":"最近事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢"},{"start":14876.85,"end":14903.651,"text":"指安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告"},{"start":14904.512,"end":14921.838,"text":"因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢"},{"start":14924.384,"end":14942.599,"text":"這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼"},{"start":14946.686,"end":14963.877,"text":"為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?"},{"start":14965.258,"end":14973.623,"text":"那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到"},{"start":14982.007,"end":14998.109,"text":"因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛"},{"start":14999.631,"end":15011.896,"text":"甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長你知道嗎在這個"},{"start":15017.179,"end":15043.474,"text":"職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是僱主責任那僱主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守僱主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問"},{"start":15045.035,"end":15073.414,"text":"職安署呢就是檢查完之後結果職安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供所以只藏在他們自己職安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題"},{"start":15074.515,"end":15090.868,"text":"因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員原住民的勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人我們總共大概有50多萬人我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右"},{"start":15091.508,"end":15118.966,"text":"那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高、高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主"},{"start":15119.566,"end":15126.808,"text":"我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副"},{"start":15140.752,"end":15157.927,"text":"我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括"},{"start":15158.447,"end":15187.014,"text":"老保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編輯效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題齁而不支持"},{"start":15187.774,"end":15202.441,"text":"那我要請教囉在這邊,因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?"},{"start":15204.122,"end":15231.721,"text":"那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決"},{"start":15232.621,"end":15253.297,"text":"最後期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的勞動部長謝謝委員我剛剛講那麼多部長簡短回應一下好不好委員你提的那個治安署的問題我回去會馬上要求這個資料是應該要內部至少要能夠互相串接的"},{"start":15254.558,"end":15283.237,"text":"對,然後內部因為治安署跟植栽中心其實那都是一個大家都在做同樣的事情那應該至少資料互相分享對,以後就不要在那邊發文然後還要看你們說同不同意這樣這我回去我們會內部檢討好嗎對,那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進對,然後那個勞保的主要是救援基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說要救保法"},{"start":15284.458,"end":15312.62,"text":"救保法本身也有它的限制啦因為我覺得在前面齁那個救安基金因為部長你剛上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室齁來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也未必是完整或者是正確的那我想這個過程當中還有一些我們需要再溝通的部分沒有關係就是救安基金的這個部分我們再來內部來討論看看好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":15314.602,"end":15316.864,"text":"好,謝謝陳銀委員接下來請劉建國委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請何部長請何部長"},{"start":15339.865,"end":15350.711,"text":"委員好部長好先跟你恭喜你有信心你有信心我就有信心這句話我不曉得怎麼答覆你"},{"start":15353.137,"end":15371.325,"text":"我的信心是你絕對會做得比許前部長更久因為他是在勞動部創下這個在任最久的部長所以我有信心那你有沒有信心?要看質量啦不要說要看我有信心你就有信心我有信心啦謝謝謝謝謝謝委員支持"},{"start":15373.906,"end":15397.555,"text":"我想不是做廠還是要做為勞工更多這個良善的勞動環境提高他們更好的這樣的一個權利我想這是應該部長來最主要的一個目標所以就沒有蜜月期了既然沒有蜜月期我就直接有一些要來做無縫接軌來承接許前部長的慰禁"},{"start":15398.516,"end":15406.725,"text":"相關的一些事情像這我特別來在這個委員會質詢許前部長就是提到台灣的8.5萬的失聯勞工那這個議題許部長可以交接嗎"},{"start":15412.932,"end":15438.49,"text":"其實這是一個長久的問題其實在行政院也有跟他有一起討論過其實應該是行政院要我們整個跨部會要來統合處理這個問題這樣子所以其實他一定是先是到跨部會那之前你又貴為是秘書長所以這個事情應該要落職長八點多萬應該不值了一直在攀升這會有國安的問題所以連國安都要來了"},{"start":15442.273,"end":15443.835,"text":"我簡單舉一個例子還有很多很多"},{"start":15458.129,"end":15485.647,"text":"然後我們針對這8.5萬的失聯移工全部是仰賴移民署的五百多位的這些專精隊的辛苦的同仁這根本實在不符合比例原則然後在2月﹐今年的2月16台灣及印度要來用已經用了視訊來簽署這個勞務合作然後未來就是台灣的移工引進這項業務部長也應該要承接起來嘛"},{"start":15486.247,"end":15503.449,"text":"我們這邊一直要去提到就是說當我們已經有超過8.5萬的這個10年的移工然後現在在印度的印度移工那破口會不會更大然後相對的國安相對的問題會不會要接受更大更嚴峻的挑戰"},{"start":15505.047,"end":15524.96,"text":"對,這一定要列入考慮啦,因為台印的MOU其實現在還要立院審查事實上還沒有往下談呢因為委員因為我們必須經過立院的審查之後我們才能往下走然後才會觸及要多少人然後那個安全機制要怎麼把關等等這些的我們一定會把它列入這個談判的這個"},{"start":15526.821,"end":15545.195,"text":"OK,但是我還是建議的齁,就是一定的比例引進外勞非常重要啦,一定的比例,現在這個你一定要去做一個通訪,要控管啦,對,那不,勞動部在4月26日有特別發布一個新聞稿,那表示要修修復活法嘛"},{"start":15545.675,"end":15571.731,"text":"要加重僱用非法移工的僱主所以我在這邊要特別要求部長針對這次修法徹底去盤點相關的這樣的一個機制不要再讓私人的移工持續擴大不只如此也不能只有在仰賴500多位的移民署的專勤隊的人員所以這個就新部長要接受新挑戰對,其實跟委員報告我們的外勞管理從早年的20幾萬人到現在快100萬人了"},{"start":15574.672,"end":15595.963,"text":"對,那麼我們的勞動力發展署其實也面臨同樣的困境就是它用很少的人然後來管這麼龐大的移工然後而這又不是只有勞動力發展署一個單位能夠承擔的問題因為它已經是一個小社會了對,它有它的方方面面的那個問題所以"},{"start":15597.364,"end":15614.348,"text":"就業服務法說真的他必須全盤檢視而且可能還要大調整這樣子這個我覺得是我上任以後也是非常重要的一個努力的工作所以這個事情就要成為部長剛上任的重中之重的議題是是是有有有對我已經請發言署開始來處理了對我們已經開始往這個方向來看怎麼樣"},{"start":15621.11,"end":15649.62,"text":"能夠是不是機關的調整上面有政治報告跟移民署的整合對等等各方面我們也必須跟行政院報告這樣因為我們去年很多的很多相關的機關都都升級起來而且有過大力上的補充嘛對不對那勞動部如果到現在要面對這個事情然後只有專靠移民署還有我們文化署在做處理的話絕對緩不濟急真的是捉襟見蟲好所以就邀請部長把這個事情列為重中之重來因應嘛"},{"start":15650.6,"end":15674.441,"text":"另外一件事情就是說我們知道去年發生這個卡凱案然後也特別在這個地方去凸顯社工師的嚴重缺工問題嘛衛生部在去年統計全國22個縣市社工需求將近4200人但是監控人數差不多3700左右監控率不到9成啦尤其新北市的需求量最高監控率只有7成1"},{"start":15675.322,"end":15702.784,"text":"那未來5年台灣的社工需要是4185人左右然後現在每年願意投入社工師的能力是685結果5年之後他還是還是不足啦甚至於不到9成了喔這個可以精算一下那因為目前的人力不足所以讓社工師陷入到山高高風險、高案量、高壓力和山缺、缺乏督導合作資源在這種惡劣的工作環境中勞動部有公告"},{"start":15703.504,"end":15723.985,"text":"跟我們勞動部有關係的就是外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第1款至第6款工作資格及審查標準的修正草案昨天在經濟委會3個委員才聯席就外國專業人才的攬柴9流的這計畫我特別跟國會副主委當昨天是副主委來備詢"},{"start":15727.208,"end":15736.261,"text":"我跟他講說我們很多地方必須要去做修正我們看到相關的這樣的一個機制我們這個目標是沒辦法達成那國會主委現在去當秘書長我想這個事情他必須要統籌但是站在勞動部這個地方"},{"start":15743.732,"end":15761.813,"text":"我們在這個條文將施工師納入這個條文這個修正的標準審查標準跟這個工作資格我已經把施工師納入進去然後也在這個本月的2月就已經公告14天了所以已經過了預告期部長應該有掌握嘛OK"},{"start":15764.756,"end":15793.752,"text":"但是國內的社會團體也都非常歡迎有外籍的社工師加入尤其臺灣就學的喬外生他有過去在臺灣讀完相關的社工學系然後也取得社工師資格卻一直到目前為止無法在臺灣的社工領域裡面去就業這是很矛盾也非常可惜一件事情既然現在有這樣突破我就請部長可能要加緊腳步了盡速的完成這個辦法的修正以及公告"},{"start":15794.412,"end":15807.807,"text":"那更多的有呼籲這個資格的僑外生還有外籍人士可以投入到臺灣社公司的行列所以我特別要求部長好沒問題我們一個月內一定做得到好謝謝好謝謝那再請部長看這個看這兩張表這部長還不曉得齁"},{"start":15812.211,"end":15838.289,"text":"司法院不足人數2已進入人數11法庭人數13宜蘭我看我都講中央單位嘛這個全部都是公家單位然後有國家環境研究院不足人數1已進入人數3新竹某個國民小學不足人數1已進入人數4還有我們的少年家事法庭還有這個差到最多的國軍高雄總醫院護生民眾診療服務處"},{"start":15840.53,"end":15868.782,"text":"已見到的是...對不起確實都是一啦二左右那右邊是民間的公司中鋼中鋼往往都排在第一名不足19中頂18還有這個關寶科技12新宇航空10還有偽創資通訊偽創是不是那個AI那一家上市那一家對不對現在通常叫AI嘛他這個不AI了"},{"start":15869.822,"end":15893.717,"text":"不足9還不足9齊機還有高通半導體應該在這邊總共有多少總共有1391家上市上歸一大堆部長你知道我提供這個資料是什麼嗎就是身障勞工未禁用足額的單位"},{"start":15895.356,"end":15915.521,"text":"公佈門一到二月就多達13個單位就左邊這個資料然後在民間的企業就高達1391家我這個後會議點總共35頁然後實際上我已經讓主委這些主委的職缺到目前為止將近2000人"},{"start":15917.301,"end":15930.049,"text":"將近2000人這就很奇怪了莊綱也排第一好像永久他都排第一然後相關的這些上市櫃的公司股票一直漲身上朋友一直不補這沒道理啊我們當然有"},{"start":15934.847,"end":15956.465,"text":"有華哲嘛,但是因為股票漲了,公司賺錢了,會看這個樣子,所以繳錢就免聘了嗎?這真的沒有道理啊,我等一下會把資本資料給部長做參考。你看將近還有2000個這些身障的職缺,這講不過去啦,然後中鋼為什麼一直排第一名?"},{"start":15957.848,"end":15958.629,"text":"總管股票沒有漲嗎?接肉應該是有囉我記得接肉應該是有喔"},{"start":15976.271,"end":16004.179,"text":"他可能沒有揭露在那個永續報告書裡面吧對他沒有列為永續報告書項目啦我們現在就是要求我們現在就是準備把一系列勞權的事項跟金管會協商要求他列入那個勞權就是那個SDGS的那一個報告裡面這樣子這樣就可以造成他們一點社會壓力啦因為其實台灣的上市跟企業長久以來也沒有被很要求的社會企業責任啦對所以這個確實是"},{"start":16005.979,"end":16029.848,"text":"必須要檢討的那也是要跨部會處理我們跨傳署有對外表示說有持續在改善中但是部長可以看厚厚這一疊一千三百多兩千個名額然後我希望部長就新冠散熱三八火如果在你的上任沒多久"},{"start":16030.948,"end":16058.959,"text":"的時間裡面可以讓這些民間還有我們公立單位趕快把這些身障的聯絡把它補足我想這是一個對於台灣社會非常很有交代這件事情然後也是鼓勵身障朋友讓他們有一個這樣的一個工作的機會不只如此其實每次在問這個事情的時候大致上都會講因為某一個公司某一個公立單位就講說就退休了"},{"start":16059.779,"end":16075.153,"text":"退休之後就沒有人來補啊很奇怪啊為什麼都不是退休之前準備要退休之前就開始來做這些動作所以這個交代不過去的齁那另外有些單位你像中鋼他一定會講說我這個單位根本齁就沒有辦法齁"},{"start":16076.654,"end":16087.661,"text":"讓這些身障的朋友來到這個工作環境裡面這個是推託支持我想盡用你看在之前有個企業他想用盡用這個視障按摩師為正式員工然後專門開一個按摩部門"},{"start":16091.684,"end":16114.719,"text":"替工作壓力緊張的員工來按摩紓壓營造良好的職場環境這是一個案例啦不只這個案例應該有很多案例我相信勞動部如果說求一下就可以把相關的這個有良也就是說對願意來照顧這些生產朋友然後也願意符合我們相關的規定的好的企業我覺得我們應該去獎勵嘛對對對我們要表揚願意用的企業也要表揚他們"},{"start":16119.662,"end":16137.731,"text":"讓他們這樣的作為可以散發出去讓各行各業知道人家為什麼可以這樣做你們為什麼做不到為什麼到現在還沒有辦法禁用到主額就交代不過去嗎我相信要用更好的方式來做處理好不好部長 這個是不是一個月內來規劃啦絕對可以來做啦 對不對如果短時間內"},{"start":16143.754,"end":16169.762,"text":"現在就有在表揚金展獎我們邀請委員來一起好嗎不是不是不是你沒有邀請我我是覺得我是覺得不只是表揚應該是對這些到現在不足19人18人13人10人很多對這些單位應該要要怎麼樣來做一個加強的督導加強的要求對2000個員額"},{"start":16174.209,"end":16179.418,"text":"好不好,請部長這一個月可以規劃啦,完成,好謝謝主席,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝劉建國委員的發言陳映委員"},{"start":16193.65,"end":16221.269,"text":"主席是這樣子我在這邊要具體建議跟要求啦因為像我們在質詢有時候像剛剛我正在講一個很重要的概念很認真在解釋的時候結果那個保險司的司長一直在在那個部長的耳朵旁邊一直講講講講很久那我講什麼我不知道部長到底是聽到我的還是聽到你的我只知道我講完之後部長回了一句結果是錯誤的答案"},{"start":16223.049,"end":16246.874,"text":"你這樣沒有讓部長你自己沒有注意聽我的質詢然後你也干擾部長沒有讓他聽我的質詢然後你就沒有辦法理解我們這邊的這個概念基礎是怎麼樣結果還給這個部長錯誤的訊息為什麼這個救安基金就不能用於保費過去也有一些案例啊那難道是因為族群的關係嗎"},{"start":16250.387,"end":16272.52,"text":"我想我現在沒有要部長回答那我也歡迎部長就是我們後續再找時間再來討論這個問題但是我還是要提醒各位你沒有給部長打pass沒有關係但是委員在講的時候你要給答案你要不要遞紙條還是你要不要簡短講重點"},{"start":16273.3,"end":16299.203,"text":"哪有佔據全部的時間都沒有在聽委員的質詢你這樣是干擾部長在聽欸而且根據國民黨現在提出這個國民黨民眾黨提出的版本我們國會質詢行使法第25條47條48條是很有可能會通過的那你這樣不等於也是藐視國會嗎是要被罰款還是要到最後有可能還被抓去關我是在這裡鄭重的提醒謝謝"},{"start":16300.484,"end":16309.05,"text":"好謝謝陳英委員那我在這邊是請未來如果部長在上面備詢的話那所有的那個"},{"start":16310.697,"end":16335.09,"text":"我們所有的同仁就是在旁邊協助那一方面也請這個在旁邊協助的同仁不要干擾到那個委員的這個發言、質詢因為有時候你在旁邊發言的話其實部長他可能也分心了沒辦法聽到委員到底在問什麼問題那這一點再請勞動部這邊再注意一下好不好"},{"start":16335.9,"end":16363.345,"text":"好,那今天本日會議巡打全部結束委員楊耀、邱振鈞、牛許廷、李燕秀、羅志強、翁曉林所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及巡打完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":16368.386,"end":16369.387,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":16392.047,"end":16393.469,"text":"我真的不看都不行去洗個手吧"}]}},{"id":"152933","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152933","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4535d2ad23962900c389f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e832be3067e3bd88ef65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:46:39 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13:01:01","影片長度":"00:14:22","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":862,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T13:01:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:46:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1205,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時46分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，先跟你恭喜，有沒有信心？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。您有信心，我就有信心。"],["劉委員建國：這句話我不曉得怎麼答復你。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：我的信心是你絕對會做得比許前部長更久，因為他是在勞動部創下在任最久的部長，所以我有信心，那你有沒有信心？"],["何部長佩珊：要看質量啦，不要看……"],["劉委員建國：你剛才說要看我有信心，你就有信心，我有信心啊！你要打破他的任期。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員支持。"],["劉委員建國：我想不只是做得長，還是要為勞工營造更多良善的勞動環境，提高他們更好的權利，應該是部長最主要的目標，所以就沒有蜜月期了；既然沒有蜜月期，我就直接無縫接軌來承接許前部長一些未盡的事情。上週我特別在這個委員會質詢許前部長，提到臺灣有8.5萬個失聯勞工，針對這個議題，許部長有跟你交接嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：其實這是一個長久的問題，行政院也有跟他一起討論過。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！OK。"],["何部長佩珊：其實應該是行政院要我們整個跨部會統合處理這個問題。"],["劉委員建國：對，其實它一定是牽涉到跨部會，之前你也貴為副秘書長，對這個事情應該瞭若指掌，應該不只八點多萬人了。"],["何部長佩珊：對，不只。"],["劉委員建國：一直在攀升嘛，這會有國安的問題，所以連國安單位都要來處理，你會看到還有人權、還有安全、還有治安都是一大隱憂。台體大「守護神」赴賽途中被撞死，闖紅燈的是失聯移工，我簡單舉一個例子，還有很多很多事件，針對這8.5萬個失聯移工，全部是仰賴移民署專勤隊五百多位辛苦的同仁，實在根本不符合比例原則。在今年的2月16日，臺灣及印度已經用視訊簽署勞務合作（MOU），未來臺印的移工引進，這項業務部長也應該要承接起來，我這邊一直要提到的，當我們已經有超過8.5萬個失聯移工，現在又引進印度移工，破口會不會更大？相對的國安、治安問題會不會接受更大、更嚴峻的挑戰？"],["何部長佩珊：對，這一定要列入考慮啦！因為臺印MOU現在還要經立院審查，事實上還沒有往下談，因為我們必須經過立院的審查之後，我們才能往下走，然後才會觸及要多少人，然後安全機制要怎麼把關等等這些的，我們一定會把它列入談判的這個……"],["劉委員建國：OK，但是我還是建議啦，就是一定的比例引進外勞非常重要啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：一定的比例，你們一定要全盤去做一個考量。"],["何部長佩珊：是，要控管啦！"],["劉委員建國：勞動部在4月26號有特別發布一個新聞稿表示要修就業服務法，要加重僱用非法移工的雇主，所以我在這邊要特別要求部長，針對這次修法澈底去盤點相關的機制，不要再讓失聯的移工持續擴大，不只如此，也不能再仰賴只有五百多位的移民署專勤隊人員，所以新部長要接受新挑戰。"],["何部長佩珊：對，其實跟委員報告，我們的外勞管理從早年的二十幾萬人到現在快一百萬人了，我們的勞動力發展署其實也面臨同樣的困境，就是它用很少的人來管這麼龐大的移工，而這又不是只有勞動力發展署一個單位能夠承擔的問題，因為它已經是一個小社會了，它有它方方面面的問題，所以就業服務法說真的必須全盤檢視，而且可能還要大調整這樣子，我覺得是我上任以後也是非常重要的一個努力的工作。"],["劉委員建國：所以這個事情就成為部長剛上任的重中之重的議題了？"],["何部長佩珊：是，有。"],["劉委員建國：OK。"],["何部長佩珊：我已經請發展署開始來處理了，我們已經開始往這個方向來看怎麼樣能夠是不是機關的調整上面，甚至包括跟移民署的整合等等各方面，我們也必須跟行政院報告這樣子。"],["劉委員建國：因為去年很多相關的機關都升級起來，而且也有擴大人力上的補充嘛！對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對，牽涉到組改。"],["劉委員建國：勞動部如果到現在要面對這個事情，然後只有專靠移民署還有我們的發展署在做處理的話，絕對緩不濟急、杯水車薪嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：真的是捉襟見肘。"],["劉委員建國：所以就請部長把這個事情列為重中之重來因應。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：另外一件事情，我們知道去年發生剴剴案，也特別在這個地方去凸顯社工師的嚴重缺工問題，衛福部在去年統計全國22個縣市社工需求將近4,200人，但是進用人數差不多3,700左右，進用率不到9成，尤其新北市的需求量最高，進用率只有7成1，未來5年臺灣的社工需要是4,185人左右，然後現在每年願意投入社工師的行列是685，結果5年之後還是不足，甚至於不到9成了喔，這可以精算一下。因為目前的人力不足所以讓社工師陷入到三高：高風險、高案量、高壓力；和三缺：缺乏督導、合作、資源，在這種惡劣的工作環境中。","勞動部有公告，跟我們勞動部有關係的就是外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第一款至第六款，工作資格及審查標準的修正草案，昨天在經濟委員會3個委員會才聯席，就外國專業人才的攬才久留的計畫，我特別跟國發會副主委……昨天是副主委來備詢，我跟他講說我們很多地方必須要去做修正，我們看到相關的機制，真的我們這個目標是沒辦法達成，國發會主委現在去當秘書長，我想這事情他必須要統籌，但是站在勞動部這個地方，我們將社工師納入這個條文、審查標準跟工作資格，我已經把社工師納入進去，然後也在2月就已經公告14天嘛，所以已經過了預告期，部長應該有掌握，OK，但是國內的社福團體也都非常歡迎外籍的社工師加入，尤其臺灣就學的僑外生，他們過去在臺灣讀完相關的社工學系，然後也取得社工師資格，但一直到目前為止仍無法在臺灣的社工領域裡面去就業，這是很矛盾也非常可惜的一件事情，既然現在有這樣的突破，我就請部長可能要加緊腳步了，儘速完成這個辦法的修正以及公告，讓更多符合這個資格的僑外生還有外籍人士可以投入到臺灣社工師的行列，所以要特別要求部長一個月內……"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題，我們一個月內一定做得到。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。再請部長看這兩張表，部長還不曉得，司法院不足人數2、已進用人數11、法定人數13；宜蘭，我看我就講中央單位，全部都是公家單位，然後有國家環境研究院不足人數1、已進用人數3；新竹某個國民小學不足人數1、已進用人數4；還有我們的少年家事法庭，還有差最多的國軍高雄總醫院附設民眾診療服務處，已進用人數……對不起，缺額都是1、2左右。右邊是民間的公司，中鋼往往都排在第一名，不足19，中鼎18，還有光寶科技12，星宇航空10，還有緯創資通，緯創是不是AI那一家？上市那一家對不對？現在通稱叫AI嘛！他這個「黑白哀」，不足9，還不足9，啓碁還有高通半導體噠噠噠，應該在這邊，總共有多少？總共有1,391家，上市上櫃一大堆。部長，你知道我提供這資料是什麼嗎？就是身障勞工未進用足額的單位，公部門1到2月就多達13個單位，就左邊這個資料，然後在民間的企業就高達1,391家，我這個厚厚一疊總共35頁，然後實際上未進用足額，這些不足額的職缺，到目前為止將近2,000人，這就很奇怪了，中鋼也排第一，好像永久它都排第一，然後相關的這些上市櫃的公司股票一直漲，身障朋友一直不補，這沒道理啊！我們當然有罰則嘛！但是因為股票漲了，公司賺錢了，所以就罰得起了，所以繳錢就免聘了嗎？這真的沒有道理，我等一下把這份資料給部長做參考。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：你看將近還有2,000個身障的職缺，這講不過去，然後中鋼為什麼一直排第一名？中鋼股票沒有漲嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們也可以跟金管會要求把它列入上市櫃公司的揭露事項，列入SDGs的那個永續報告……"],["劉委員建國：揭露應該是有囉，我記得揭露應該是有喔！"],["何部長佩珊：可能沒有揭露在那個永續報告書裡面吧！"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["何部長佩珊：它沒有列為永續報告書項目，我們現在就是準備把一系列勞權的事項跟金管會協商，要求它列入SDGs的報告裡面，這樣就可以造成他們一點社會壓力，因為其實臺灣的上市櫃企業長久以來也沒有被很要求社會企業責任，所以這個確實是必須要檢討的，也是要跨部會處理。"],["劉委員建國：我們發展署有對外表示說有持續在改善中，但是部長你可以看厚厚這一疊，一千三百多家。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：2,000個名額嘛！然後我希望……"],["何部長佩珊：我們把這個資料掌握起來。"],["劉委員建國：OK，我希望部長就新官上任三把火，如果在你上任沒多久的時間裡面可以讓這些民間還有我們公立單位趕快把這些身障的員額補足，我想這是一個對臺灣社會很有交代的一件事情，然後也是鼓勵身障朋友，讓他們有這樣的一個工作機會。不只如此啦，其實每次在問這個事情的時候，大家都會講，因為某一個公司、某一個公立單位就講說就退休了，退休之後就沒有人來補，很奇怪，為什麼都不是準備要退休之前就開始來做這些動作？所以這個交代不過去啦！另外有些單位，你像中鋼一定會講說我這個單位根本就沒有辦法讓這些身障的朋友來到這個工作環境裡面，這個是推託之詞啦，你看之前有個企業，它進用視障按摩師為正式員工，然後專門開一個按摩部門替工作壓力緊張的員工來按摩紓壓，營造良好的職場環境，這是一個案例，不只這個案例，應該有很多案例，我相信勞動部如果搜索一下就可以把相關的有良……也就是說願意來照顧這些身障朋友，也願意符合我們相關的這些規定的好企業，我覺得我們應該去獎勵嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：好，對，我們要表揚願意用的企業，也要表揚他們……"],["劉委員建國：讓他們這樣的作為可以散發出去，讓各行各業知道，人家為什麼可以這樣做，你們為什麼做不到，為什麼到現在還沒有辦法進用到足額，就交代不過去嘛！我相信要用更好的這種方式來做處理，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：這個是不是一個月內來規劃？絕對可以來做啦！"],["何部長佩珊：可以。"],["劉委員建國：如果短時間內……"],["何部長佩珊：現在就有金展獎在表揚，我們邀請委員來一起……"],["劉委員建國：不是、不是，你們不用邀請我，我也沒有……我是覺得不只是表揚，應該是對這些，到現在不足19人、18人、13人、10人，很多嘛！這些單位應該要怎麼樣做一個加強的督導、加強的要求嘛！2,000個員額耶！好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：請部長在一個月內規劃完成。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝主席、謝謝部長、謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿",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這個是不是一個月內來規劃啦絕對可以來做啦 對不對如果短時間內"},{"start":823.272,"end":849.68,"text":"現在就有在表揚嗎?金展獎我們邀請委員來一起好嗎?不是不是你別邀請我我是覺得不只是表揚嘛應該是對這些到現在不足19人、18人、13人10人很多嘛對這些單位應該要怎麼樣來做一個加強的督導嘛加強的要求嘛對2000個員額勒"},{"start":853.936,"end":854.256,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152932","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152932","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453f90da0e1227cbb595d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e83eaa168ddc20ba7d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:51:19 - 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主委好事實上我今天關心一點點時間我關心的是還是人才的問題我們國科會就是為國舉財嘛那培養人才是我們國科會不管在各個專業領域科學領域都必須要做的事情"},{"start":29.97,"end":34.453,"text":"但是如同剛剛楊委員提到的我們在流財攬財的部分400多人為什麼4年裡面只有97人留下我覺得不是楊委員的這樣子的一個想法我覺得吳助委你的回答我覺得也不夠完整因為在過去這幾年來我過去有6年在12個會期在教育委員會"},{"start":57.386,"end":80.523,"text":"那時候我們關係從這個國科會到科技部到國科會那我們都在講說我們的基礎科學人才的培育到底足不足夠那我們從內部台灣內部我們自己要培育我們自己的基礎科學人才那我們現在碰到的是少子化的關係所以呢我們的基礎科學人才呢在這幾年來是不夠的"},{"start":81.343,"end":84.585,"text":"是不夠的而這個不夠會影響到什麼影響到未來各個專業領域各個科學領域他們的在從進階的一個研究或者是發展他都會受到影響這個是台灣未來我們必須要認真嚴肅去面對的一個問題"},{"start":98.391,"end":116.522,"text":"二、除了我們自己國內的基礎科學人才從小到大我們如何在這個教育正規教育體系裡面或者是在高階的研究領域裡面我們如何培訓怎麼去盤點怎麼去檢討那第二個我們如何引進國外的人才"},{"start":117.762,"end":137.139,"text":"引進國外的人才讓他能夠為台灣的科學研究甚至未來的一些科學的發展他能夠盡一份心力第一個我們說要留才我們當時候當時候在蔡英文總統主政之下給了國科會給了科技部"},{"start":138.38,"end":161.618,"text":"給了這樣的政策方向所以呢才會有這個所謂的國外學人呢或是國外的科學家可以來到台灣我們希望留下他但是目前為止我認為為什麼只有97人留下第一個新知福祉我們是不是可以比得上國外的學術單位研究單位這第一個主委你自己應該也知道啦為什麼會留不住"},{"start":162.915,"end":184.88,"text":"立即在哪裡是第一個第二個我們國內的研究環境是足以提供這些國外的學者或者是呢甚至我們當時候認為說全世界如果有華人學者是願意選擇台灣來做他的研究基礎我們都展開雙臂來歡迎他但是為什麼他留不下來"},{"start":186.391,"end":215.296,"text":"他第二個除了薪資福祉之外在於他的生活他的家庭能不能在台灣落地生根而這些都必須要由國科會我們自己主動跨部會的去盤點去爬輸出問題要怎麼去解決要去爭取讓這個機制能夠更好讓更多的國外的人才願意選擇台灣作為他們研究基礎的安心安身立命的地方主委"},{"start":217.028,"end":239.226,"text":"我希望你能夠承諾我們好好地去盤點而不是說這是為產業所用如果我們留下的人才可以為國內的產業界所用我也很高興啊可是我們到目前為止這個97人留下是不夠好的這是不真的事實嘛就表示這個有出了一些問題嘛那問題在哪裡我們能不能解決嘛來 諸位"},{"start":240.776,"end":241.697,"text":"這是不爭的事實我知道啊"},{"start":259.597,"end":274.116,"text":"但是如何以國科會為國舉財為國培育人才的這個角色裡面欸你想一下有那麼多那麼多的這個高端專業非常高科技的這些研究各單位欸你認為你們的人才就夠了嗎"},{"start":277.269,"end":299.164,"text":"當然不夠啦但是我們的預算還是有限我們預算有限實在也很難靠政府的力量一直擴充我當然知道預算有限啦我現在是說我們要為國家培育這些基礎科學的人才或者是其他各領域的高端的高科技的這些科學人才而我們國科會是有這個責任因為國科會必須為我們政府"},{"start":303.047,"end":318.472,"text":"指定一個有現在有未來甚至有潛在性有遠見的一個科技政策這個科技政策呢不是只有科技計劃而已他還包括科技人才的培育"},{"start":319.332,"end":340.053,"text":"是這個是台灣國立之所在啊那尤其在面臨現在的少子化的現在我們如何去做一個精進調整我覺得我事實上剛剛楊委員在問的時候我期待吳主委能夠提供一個更紅光更有一個時程性的或者是有階段性的有"},{"start":340.814,"end":345.258,"text":"我期待的是這個當然呢我希望國科會在做這些事的時候不僅僅是為了我們自己國內的科學學界在做不是為了國科會自己在做當然也是為了產業界在做啊是不是主委我期待啦好不好"},{"start":366.818,"end":382.377,"text":"希望會後我可以提到一個比較完整的吳主委你的想法在你主政之下的國科會可以對我們各個領域的基礎科學也好各個不同階段的科學的研究的人才的培育我希望能夠有一個藍圖好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152930","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152930","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4530758d76e68d5212a9f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e837a0ad4916a9baa255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:34:58 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12:46:34","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":696,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:46:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:34:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時35分）謝謝召委，麻煩請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好，首先很高興、也要誇你一下有這個勇氣及擔當來擔任勞動部部長這個重責大任的職位。勞動政策攸關全體國民的生活水準與健康安全，以及我們國家的經濟發展與國際競爭力，如果沒有勞工的支持，任何一個政黨都沒有辦法贏得執政的機會，所以勞工相當重要，我想部長也一定知道這個問題的嚴重性。","首先，我有8個字要送給部長：偏聽則廢，兼聽則明。過去部長擔任柯總召辦公室主任及8年行政院副秘書長的職務，我也見證了這些歲月，相信部長對於整個溝通協調很難有人可以出其右。現在您擔任部長，必須要做政策、決定及辯護，可是問題的專業及複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身，所以除了文官的意見，建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位及工會團體的意見，再加上專家學者的意見，再去思考問題應該要如何解決，特別是涉及勞動條件及職安衛的檢查部分。","我要舉一個例子，就是過去我曾經提醒勞動條件是否具有限期改善的空間，我們看一下簡報，這個部分在勞動檢查法第二十五條裡面明定確實有改善的空間，我也特別請教當過你們政務次長的法學教授，他也認為是可以的，而且勞基法第一條「本法未規定者，適用其他法律之規定」，也沒有說不可以。以前在地方執行的時候，也都是有空間的，但是自從你們的現任主秘、也就是過去的職安署劉傳名前署長搞了一個勞條大軍之後，就變成抓到就要罰，尤其是在一例一休的修法期間，曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了1.33元，沒有辦法除盡，沒有四捨五入，差了幾塊錢，就要被罰2萬，甚至還有官員沾沾自喜地跟我們說：我的紀錄是差0.6元，我也是罰2萬塊錢。而且更可惡的是，在罰鍰之後，並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益，因為你們就只管收罰款，雇主沒有支付勞工加班費的部分，你們實際上沒有真的很關心。部長，就這件事情，你是不是願意去瞭解，看看我講的到底是不是真的？好。","我再舉一個例子，就是職業災害勞工受傷之後，面對雇主不聞不問，請問職安署能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼？最近這幾天我接到的一個案例是來自新竹的一位阿美族原住民，他是板模工，他在工作的時候眼睛受傷，到現在視力還沒有恢復。這個職災發生之後，雇主是沒有通報的，竟然是職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災，然後雇主就被勞檢了，職安署也是跳過勞檢法第二十五條的改善期，直接一共罰了雇主19萬，然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了，還沒完喔，並且是請職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告，如果雇主仍然不補償，就請職災勞工自己上法院去提告。因為雇主已經被你們職安署給罰了，所以雇主認為他本來要付給勞工的原領工資及醫療補償等等就不再給付了。部長，你們職安署原來是在跟這些職災勞工搶錢喔，這很奇怪耶！我覺得完全是很不像話的一件事情，我也很好奇，鄒署長上任已經邁入第8年了，將近8年來，為了權益受損的這些勞工，你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼？為什麼不根據調查報告的結果，主動給予必要的協助？如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案，或者是為了要做裁罰的需要，而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障，這樣的報告到底有什麼意義？調查報告全部都是封在職安署的藏經閣裡面，負責職災給付的勞保局，你們看不到嘛，還有負責照顧職災勞工的法人，他們也看不到，因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代，我覺得調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位連線啊！省得公文往返，因為要發文才能調調查報告，甚至這兩個單位及我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告，都還要看鄒署長的臉色，如果給了，是不是叫施捨？不給，他就講是個資啊！你們都可以這樣講嘛！所以部長，你知道嗎？在職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任，雇主必須要提供安全衛生的環境、教育訓練、提供安全的設備、機具跟個人防護的設備，而勞工有遵守的義務；如果勞工沒有遵守，雇主也必須要做安全衛生的管理，怎麼可以說發生職災之後，就可以不聞不問？職安署在檢查完之後，結果職安署完成調查報告也跟著不聞不問了，連這個檢查報告也都不能提供，只藏在他們職安署裡面。部長，這些都是會產生民怨的，我今天特別再點出來，您新上任，真的這個問題很普遍，常常在發生，你真的可以好好去瞭解一下。","我今天跟部長談的，都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過、有遇到的問題，因為本席是原住民選出的立法委員，原住民勞工實際就業人數其實是超過26萬人，我們總共大概有五十多萬人，實際就業有26萬人，但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右，而且原住民勞工具有三高一低的現象，就是高職災、非典型的就業也高、失業率也高，唯一低的就是我們的薪資，這些資料可以從原住民就業調查報告，以及你們的職災統計數據就可以知道，為了解決這些問題，我的提案是不是可以用就安基金補助聘用原住民的雇主，用勞保保費的一半。我現在要講的這句話大家都沒有想到的，我今天要強調、再強調，我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋，這些錢最後最後都會全部進入勞工口袋的給付，我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚，包括這些審議委員，大家要弄清楚，這些錢最後都是要進入原住民勞工口袋的給付。勞保局有精算過，費用大概要3億，而且能造成的效益，包括勞保投保人數增加、保費收入也增加，這些人變成正式的勞工，所以非典就業的比例就降低了，因為成為正式的員工，所以薪資的資料就更完整了，所得稅的預期也會增加，可以說是邊際效益更好的結果。但是有些人故意去提公平性的問題，而不支持，我在這邊要請教了，因為就安基金不就是要促進國民就業，我們對於高齡、婦女、育嬰留職停薪、職災預防、青少年，不是都有利用就安基金來穩定就業嗎？我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點，就是他們都是弱勢，而原住民勞工就是在最底層、最基層的勞動力，也更是弱勢中的弱勢，他們就很難被協助到，所以希望部長可以好好再重新思考這個問題，就是讓原住民勞工的三高問題可以因此得到解決。最後，期許部長可以成為勞工最有感的勞動部長。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛講那麼多，請部長簡短回應一下，好不好？這是很重要的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你提的職安署問題，我回去會馬上要求，這個資料內部至少要能夠互相串接的。"],["陳委員瑩：對！"],["何部長佩珊：因為職安署跟職災中心大家都在做同樣的事情，至少資料應該互相分享、互相瞭解。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯。以後就不要在那邊發文，還要看你們同不同意。"],["何部長佩珊：是，回去我們會內部檢討，好嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：對，在提案的部分，我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都要進勞工的口袋。"],["何部長佩珊：對，主要是就安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用，因為確實牽涉到就保法，就保法本身也有它的限制啦。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我覺得在前面……"],["何部長佩珊：對不起！是就安基金本身的……"],["陳委員瑩：部長你剛上任，我們還沒有跟辦公室實質討論這個問題，我覺得可能你前面得到的資訊，也未必是完整或者是正確的，我想這個過程當中，還有一些我們需要再溝通的部分，我們再……"],["何部長佩珊：在就安基金的部分，我們內部再來討論看看，好嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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任部長必須要做政策跟決定還有辯護可是問題的專業跟複雜往往都是牽一髮而動全身所以除了文官的意見建議部長未來也可以多聽事業單位跟工會的團體的意見再加上專家學者的意見再去思考"},{"start":100.167,"end":119.238,"text":"問題應該要如何解決那特別是涉及到這個勞動條件還有這個職安位的這個檢查的部分那我要舉一個例子就是在過去我曾經提醒就是說這個勞動條件是否具有這個限期改善的空間我們看一下簡報"},{"start":120.519,"end":141.253,"text":"這個部分在這個勞動檢查法25條裡面法有明定確實有改善的空間那我也特別請教過當過你們政務次長的法學教授他也認為是可以的而且這個勞基法第一條本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定也沒有說不可以"},{"start":142.434,"end":165.973,"text":"以前在地方執行的時候也都是有空間的但是自從你們的現任主密也就是過去的這個執安署的這個劉傳明前署長他搞了一個牢條大軍之後就變成抓到就要罰尤其是在這個一例一休的修法期間曾經有事業單位計算勞工薪資因為差了這個1.33元沒有辦法這個"},{"start":170.376,"end":192.744,"text":"就是除禁那沒有四捨五入差了幾塊錢就要被罰兩萬甚至還有官員沾沾自喜的來跟我們說我的記錄是這個差0.6元我也是跟他罰兩萬塊錢而且更可惡的在罰完之後並不代表勞工就可以領到他們應有的權益因為"},{"start":193.544,"end":208.507,"text":"你們就只管收這個罰款那雇主呢沒有支付給這個勞工加班費的部分喔你們實際上沒有真的很關心啊部長這件事情喔你是不是願意去了解看看看我講的到底是不是真的"},{"start":210.404,"end":237.056,"text":"那我再舉一個例子喔就是職業災害勞工受傷之後呢面對雇主不聞不問那請問職安署呢你們能夠實質幫助到勞工什麼因為我這裡就這幾天我接到的最近接到的一個案例這是來自新竹的一位阿美族的這個原住民喔他是板磨工那他在工作的時候呢他眼睛受傷到現在視力還沒有恢復那"},{"start":238.156,"end":254.914,"text":"這件事情這個職災發生之後僱主是沒有通報的那竟然是這個職災勞工的親友自己去通報職災然後呢就被勞檢了嘛僱主被勞檢"},{"start":256.435,"end":283.055,"text":"職安署也是跳過勞檢法25條的改善期直接一共罰了僱主19萬然後就告訴我們這件事情已經結案了還沒完喔並且是請這個職災勞工自己去申請職災調查報告那如果僱主仍然不補償呢那就請這個職災勞工自己上法院去提告"},{"start":283.935,"end":301.1,"text":"因為僱主已經被你們職安署給罰了所以僱主認為說我本來要付給勞工的員領工資還有醫療補償等等就不再給付了部長你們職安署原來是在跟這些職債勞工搶錢"},{"start":303.803,"end":322.042,"text":"這很奇怪欸就完全我覺得是很不像話的一件事情喔因為我也很好奇周署長你上任已經邁入第8年了齁那這將近8年來到底這些你為了這些就是說權益受損的這些勞工齁你們實質上幫他們討回了什麼"},{"start":326.106,"end":343.3,"text":"為什麼不根據這個調查報告的結果主動給予必要的協助?如果職災調查報告只是為了行政上的結案或者是為了要做裁罰的需要而不是為了職災勞工權益的保障這樣的報告到底有什麼意義?"},{"start":344.681,"end":364.101,"text":"那你們這個調查報告全部都是封在職安署的這個藏金格裡面喔那負責職災己負的這個勞保局你們看不到嘛那還有這個負責這個照顧職災勞工的法人他們也看不到因為你們的系統是停留在恐龍時代"},{"start":365.602,"end":391.844,"text":"那如果要看這個我覺得就是說調查報告起碼要跟這兩個單位要連線啊省得說你公文往返因為要發文才能調查報告嘛那甚至說他們這兩個單位甚至我們辦公室能不能拿到調查報告我們都還要看那個州署長的臉色欸那如果給了是不是叫施捨那不給他就講說是個資啊你們都可以這樣講嘛所以部長"},{"start":393.886,"end":422.885,"text":"你知道嗎?在這個職業安全衛生法裡面的規範都是雇主責任那雇主他必須要提供這個安全衛生的環境還有這個教育訓練那提供安全的設備還有機具跟個人防護的設備那勞工有這個遵守的義務嘛那如果勞工沒有遵守雇主他也就是必須要做這個要這個安全衛生的管理那怎麼可以說發生職貸之後呢就可以不聞不問"},{"start":424.367,"end":438.799,"text":"指安署呢就是檢查完之後結果指安署完成了調查報告也跟著不聞不問了那連這個檢查報告也都不能提供好所以只藏在他們自己指安署裡面部長這些都是會產生民怨的所以"},{"start":439.379,"end":458.227,"text":"我今天特別再點出來您新上任真的這個問題很普遍常常在發生你真的可以好好去了解一下那我今天跟部長談的呢都是過去我在質詢的時候有提過有遇到的問題那因為本期是原住民選出的立法委員那原住民的這個勞工實際就業的人數其實是超過26萬人"},{"start":462.068,"end":482.646,"text":"我們總共大概有50多萬人嘛那我們實際就有26萬人但是實際加入勞保的人數大概只有18萬人左右那而且這個原住民勞工具有這個三高一低的現象就是職災高高職災然後非典型的就業也高然後失業率也高唯一低的就是我們的薪資"},{"start":483.607,"end":501.413,"text":"那這些資料可以從這個原住民就業調查報告還有以及你們的這個職災統計的數據就可以知道那為了解決這些問題我提供我的提案就是是不是可以用這個救安基金的這個補助聘用原住民的雇主那勞保保費一半好這些"},{"start":503.089,"end":519.228,"text":"我現在講的這句話大家都沒有想到的我今天要強調再強調我剛剛講的這些錢不是直接進到雇主的口袋這些錢是最後最後都會全部進入勞工的口袋的幾副"},{"start":520.169,"end":542.476,"text":"我覺得這個觀念大家要弄清楚包括這些審議委員大家要弄清楚這些錢最後都是要進入我們原住民勞工的口袋的脊腹勞保局有精算過那費用大概要3億那而且造成這個效益包括勞保投保人數的增加保費收入也增加那這些人呢"},{"start":542.936,"end":568.365,"text":"他變成了正式的勞工所以呢非典就業的比例他就降低了那因為成為正式的員工所以他的薪資的資料他就更完整了所得稅的預期也會增加所以呢這個可以說是這個編記效益更好的結果那但是呢因為有些人故意去提公平性的問題而不支持那我要請教囉在這邊"},{"start":569.545,"end":599.125,"text":"因為救安基金他不就是要促進這個國民就業嗎?那我們對於這個高齡啊、婦女啊、那育嬰留職、停薪、職災預防、青少年不是都有利用救安基金來穩定就業嗎?那這些族群我剛剛點到這些族群的共通點就是他們都是弱勢而原住民的勞工就是在最底層最基層的這些勞動力也更是弱勢中的弱勢他們就很難被協助到嘛"},{"start":599.605,"end":624.67,"text":"所以希望部長可以好好再重新這個思考這個問題請原住民的勞工就是讓原住民我們勞工這個三高一低的這個三高的問題可以因此得到解決那最後呢期許就是說部長可以成為勞工最有感的這個勞動部長謝謝委員謝謝好那我剛剛講那麼多那個部長簡短回應一下好不好這很重要的問題"},{"start":625.23,"end":626.41,"text":"對那提案的部分我剛剛講的最重要的概念是這個錢最後都是要進"},{"start":653.517,"end":670.971,"text":"對,然後那個勞保的主要是救安基金能不能符合去補助原民勞保費用這確實因為有些人說救保法救保法本身也有它的限制因為我覺得在前面那個救安基金因為部長你當上任我們還沒有實質跟辦公室來實質討論這個問題那我覺得有些資訊可能你前面得到的資訊也"},{"start":680.279,"end":680.299,"text":"陳英偉"}]}},{"id":"152929","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152929","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4533d1375646ad79b22bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e83e4c5fe67f6f01b515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:31:36 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12:44:46","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":790,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:44:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:31:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1328,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時32分）不好意思！再給我30秒就好了。我稍微調整一下。"],["主席：你要請哪位上來？我先請他上來，再開始時間。"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思啦！"],["主席：要請哪位？待會他上來，我們時間再算。"],["黃委員國昌：我不好意思讓部長在那邊等。"],["主席：不會，要請部長嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：對，是。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。還有沒有？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，可以了。"],["主席：就部長。可以了嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好！"],["主席：請。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好！今天我們要審議洗錢防制法，我相信最主要的理由就是因為幫詐騙洗錢太嚴重了，我們要強化整個有關於不法洗錢行為的規範密度及廣度，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在整個詐騙之所以會這麼猖獗、不法的所得之所以難以追回，是不是就是因為洗錢所導致的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是希望能夠把犯罪的不法所得查出來查扣，然後發還給被害人，不然的話，就是要宣告沒收。"],["黃委員國昌：好，除了把不法所得追回來之外，我們應不應該嚴懲幫助不法所得洗錢的人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是我們的立法目標。"],["黃委員國昌：這是立法目標嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個立法的目標有沒有獲得實踐，我們就要具體的看，今天洗錢防制法的修正關於洗錢行為的定義在第二條裡面重新做文字的修正嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：有哪三種洗錢的樣態，可不可以請部長稍微說明一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在第二條的部分，我們是參考德國的立法例，我想這個部分可以讓我們在洗錢的定義更加的明確，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是哪三種樣態？看我的ppt就可以了啦！部長，我ppt寫的絕對不會錯啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：一個就是掩飾型，就是ppt講的掩飾型的……"],["黃委員國昌：掩飾型是第一種嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，第一種。"],["黃委員國昌：還有呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有就是阻礙型的及隔絕型的。"],["黃委員國昌：以及危害型，最後才隔絕型嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下具體的例子，被害人被詐騙了以後，把金錢交付給詐騙集團的首腦，這個詐騙集團的首腦拿了這個錢去跟酒商買了昂貴的酒，然後這個首腦跟A共謀，把這批酒給藏起來，這個是不是洗錢的行為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個洗錢的行為。"],["黃委員國昌：這是一個洗錢的行為，非常好！講得很明確。所以我們這一次在洗錢防制法當中，針對隱匿特定犯罪所得或掩飾其來源，所謂隱匿型的部分，請部長看一下，就你剛剛所講的參考德國刑法第二百六十一條第一項第一句的掩飾型洗錢犯罪，我們過去在主觀要件上把他定位成是意圖犯，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，現在把它刪除。"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在我們不用意圖犯，按照你們修法理由，除了客觀上有隱匿或掩飾的行為，而且主觀上只要知悉或可得知悉財物或財產上的利益是特定犯罪所得，就構成了洗錢，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以這裡的知悉或可得知悉，是把主觀要件降到未必故意，還是把主觀要件降到過失？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為這是一個抽象危險犯，只要這個行為的話，我們就認為有洗錢行為。"],["黃委員國昌：抽象危險犯我瞭解，現在我問你的是主觀要件的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就是一個故意犯嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：這是故意犯，那可得知悉是什麼意思？你看一下你們的修法理由……"],["鄭部長銘謙：可得知悉就是未必故意。"],["黃委員國昌：可得知悉是未必故意，好，非常好，那我今天要跟部長公開檢舉一個幫詐欺犯首腦洗錢的行為。這批酒是當初我在臺灣公益揭弊暨吹哨者保護協會的時候，幫im.B的被害人追出來的酒，因為詐騙集團首腦曾耀鋒用詐騙所得去買了一拖拉庫的酒，藏在一個地方，當初有被害人跟我講說有這批酒，但他們不知道在哪裡，那個時候，被害人具狀請北檢檢察官去追查，北檢檢察官查不出來，後來我自己請協會的同仁去查這批酒在哪裡，查到這批酒以後，我拍了照具狀跟臺北地檢署檢察官陳報，因為我沒有公權力，不能搜索扣押，我能夠做的就是告訴北檢檢察官酒在這裡，請他們去扣押。收到我這個陳報狀以後，過了幾天，北檢檢察官也真的去扣了這批酒，現在這批酒已經被變賣掉了，變賣所得的金錢也發還給被害人。重點是，我們追回了不法所得，但協助隱匿這個不法犯罪所得的所有參與人，是不是有被訴追刑事責任？這件事情，部長覺得重不重要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案部分我們是尊重檢察官的裁定結果。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以我才要公開檢舉。當初這批酒藏匿的地點是在前行政院政務顧問陳振坤實際所掌控的旅館地下室，因此陳振坤在臺北地檢署im.B的起訴書裡面，依照洗錢防制法被起訴了。這個是臺北地檢署給所有被害人的起訴書，我相信北檢檢察官在您當初的領導下，一定是很認真在追究這些詐騙、洗錢的犯罪行為。","來！請部長看一下我紅字寫的部分，他說陳振坤為了協助曾耀鋒隱匿吸金的犯罪所得，提供他小孩位於宜蘭縣宜蘭市慕夏精品旅館有限公司地下室，供曾耀鋒藏以犯罪所得購得的噶瑪蘭威士忌酒，現在這個案子臺北地檢署起訴了，在臺北地方法院的刑事庭正在進行審理程序，在那個審理程序當中，我要跟法務部部長報告的是，那個幫助洗錢的陳振坤認罪了，他認罪了，他已經清楚的認罪了，因為刑事審判程序是公開的，對不對？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！他在刑事審判程序公開的法庭認罪了，這個沒有涉及到偵查秘密嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！好，他在認罪的同時，他講什麼呢？他同時講說這批酒當初會放，是立法委員陳歐珀把酒交給他的。來！請部長看一下剛剛這個犯罪結構圖，這個詐騙的首腦加上A代為隱匿他詐騙的犯罪所得，顯然這個A不是只有陳振坤，因為陳振坤現在已經起訴了，也認罪了，但這個A不是只有陳振坤，這個A還有陳歐珀啊！這個犯罪事實，公訴的檢察官在公訴蒞庭的時候應該都知道，公務員知道有不法的犯罪事實，是不是應該要依職權告發？"],["鄭部長銘謙：陳歐珀的部分已經另案偵辦了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在在偵辦當中嗎？不是啦！因為我怕啦！公訴的檢察官當庭知道這樣一個犯罪事實的時候，他有沒有依照職權告發，我不是很確定，所以我現在直接公開檢舉這件事，這沒有什麼偵辦秘密，這是在公開法庭當中，陳振坤認罪的時候所表示的內容。","好，現在你當法務部部長了，請問法務部部長可不可以在上班的時間去幫財團老闆喬私人的訴訟？你現在當部長，你會不會這樣做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不可能。"],["黃委員國昌：這個不可能嘛！應不應該這樣做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個應該大家都知道應該怎麼做才對。"],["黃委員國昌：大家都知道應該還是不應該？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不應該在……"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你擔任法務部部長的時候，希望不要發生部長利用上班時間，幫自己好朋友、有錢的大老闆喬他私人的訴訟、談和解，法務部長做這件事情不妥嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個、這個是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第三件事情，去年有監聽的名單外洩出來，那個時候調查局、廉政署、最高檢察署三個非常重要的偵辦犯罪機關聯合發了新聞稿，表示這是典型的認知作戰。好，如果今天這個外洩的監聽名單全部都是假的，竟然有人在散播這個假名單，那當然是認知作戰，但問題是裡面散播的有非常多都是真的，那個時候……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有洩密，這個臺北地檢署也正在偵辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以針對這個案子，臺北地檢署的偵辦，我要拜託部長，我不會介入個案偵辦，我只要求一件事情，就是積極查辦，因為這件事情很嚴重，如果把監聽的名單外洩，會嚴重阻礙到整個犯罪的偵查……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個監聽的資料是不是真實的，我想這個也涉及到認知作戰中假訊息的問題，臺北地檢署也在偵辦中、瞭解中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以臺北地檢署會不會公開清楚的讓社會大眾知道，裡面是全部都假的，還是有很多是真的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我想要看偵查不公開的作業辦法規定……"],["黃委員國昌：對吧！現在偵查不公開，但偵查總會終結，我希望偵查終結的時候，要負責任的跟社會大眾講，這到底是真的還是假的？如果是真的，誰洩漏出去的，該不該追查？"],["主席：好，請部長說明，一句話，因為時間關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果偵查有結果的話，我想臺北地檢署應該會以新聞稿或對外的一個說明。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長，謝謝總召。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來有請葉委員元之質詢。葉委員元之、葉委員元之不在。","所有發言登記委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員翁曉玲、吳宗憲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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這個是不是洗錢的行為這是一個洗錢的行為這是一個洗錢的行為嗎 非常好講得很明確 所以我們這一次在洗錢防制法當中針對隱匿特定犯罪所得或掩飾其來源"},{"start":246.716,"end":263.203,"text":"所謂隱匿型的部分來請部長看一下喔就你剛剛所講的參考德國刑法261條第一項第一句的掩飾型洗錢犯罪我們過去在主觀要件上把它定位成是意圖犯嘛"},{"start":263.92,"end":284.967,"text":"對不對對現在把它刪除好現在我們不用意圖犯按照你們修法理由除了客觀上有隱匿或掩飾的行為而且主觀上只要知悉或可得知悉財務或財產上的利益是特定犯罪所得就構成了洗錢是不是是"},{"start":285.447,"end":308.064,"text":"好 所以你這裡知悉或可得知悉你是把主觀要件降到未必故意還是把主觀要件降到過失我們認為這是一個抽象危險犯只要這個行為的話我們就認為有洗錢的意思抽象危險犯我了解現在我在問你的是主觀要件的部分這是故意犯嘛這是故意犯那可得而可得知悉是什麼意思來你看一下"},{"start":309.105,"end":337.509,"text":"你們的修法理由可得知悉就是未必故意可得知悉是未必故意嘛好非常好那我今天啊就要公開跟部長我公開檢舉啊一個幫詐欺犯的首腦啊洗錢的行為這批酒是當初我在擔任台灣公益階壁及吹哨者保護協會的時候我在幫IMB的被害人去追出來的酒因為"},{"start":339.724,"end":364.317,"text":"詐騙集團的首腦曾耀峰用詐騙的所得去買了一拖拉鼓的酒藏在一個地方當初有被害人跟我講說有這批酒但他們不知道在哪裡那個時候被害人劇狀請北檢的檢察官去追查北檢的檢察官查不出來"},{"start":365.779,"end":375.175,"text":"我後來我自己請我協會的同仁去查這批酒在哪裡查到這批酒以後我拍了照"},{"start":377.433,"end":400.193,"text":"據狀跟台北地檢署的檢察官呈報因為我沒有公權力嘛我不能搜索扣押嘛我能夠做的就是告訴北檢的檢察官酒在這裡請你們去扣押收到我這個呈報狀以後過了幾天北檢的檢察官也真的去扣了這一批酒現在這一批酒已經被變賣掉了"},{"start":401.51,"end":402.11,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":427.298,"end":452.668,"text":"所以我才要公開檢舉嘛因為當初這個酒藏匿的地點是前行政院政務顧問陳振坤他實際所掌控的旅館的地下室那因此陳振坤在台北地檢署IMB起訴書裡面他依照洗錢防制法被起訴了"},{"start":454.216,"end":472.778,"text":"這個是台北地檢署給所有被害人的起訴書我相信北檢的檢察官在您當初的領導下面一定是很認真的在追究這些詐騙洗錢的犯罪行為來請部長看一下我紅字寫的部分"},{"start":473.539,"end":499.096,"text":"他說啊陳正坤為了協助曾耀峰隱匿悉心的犯罪所得提供他小孩位於宜蘭縣宜蘭市木下精品旅館有限公司地下室供曾耀峰藏以犯罪所得購得的葛瑪蘭威士忌酒現在這個案子台北地檢署起訴了在台北地方法院的刑事庭"},{"start":500.512,"end":527.973,"text":"正在進行審理程序在那個審理程序當中啊我要跟法務部部長報告的是這要那個陳正坤啊幫助洗錢的陳正坤啊他認罪了他認罪了他已經清楚的認罪了因為刑事審判程序是公開的嘛對不對部長是是嘛他在刑事審判程序當中公開的法庭認罪了這個沒有涉及到偵查秘密嘛"},{"start":530.798,"end":548.946,"text":"這個沒有對嘛好他在認罪的同時他同時講什麼他同時講說這批酒我當初會放啊是立法委員陳歐破把酒交給我的也就是來請部長回去看一下我們剛剛這一個犯罪結構圖啊"},{"start":552.691,"end":579.199,"text":"這個詐騙的首腦加上A代為隱匿他詐騙的犯罪所得啊那顯然這個A啊不是只有陳正坤啊因為陳正坤現在已經起訴了嘛他也認罪了嘛那這個A不是只有陳正坤啊這個A還有陳厚破啊這個犯罪事實公訴的檢察官在公訴立庭的時候應該都知道嘛"},{"start":580.967,"end":585.379,"text":"公務員知道有不法的犯罪事實是不是應該要依職權告發?"},{"start":586.874,"end":616.176,"text":"那個陳厚破的部分已經立案偵辦了所以現在在偵辦當中嘛不是啦因為我怕啦齁公訴的檢察官啊當庭知道這樣子的一個犯罪事實的時候他有沒有依照職權告發我不是很確定嘛我現在直接依照我現在直接公開檢舉這件事這沒有什麼偵辦秘密啊這個是在公開法庭當中啊陳正坤他認罪的時候所表示啊的內容好現在"},{"start":617.813,"end":637.142,"text":"法務部部長您現在當法務部部長了嘛法務部部長可不可以在上班的時間去幫財團的老闆喬斯仁的訴訟以後你如果當部長你現在當部長你會不會這樣做這個不可能嘛應不應該這樣做"},{"start":642.437,"end":669.818,"text":"這個應該大家都知道應該要怎麼做才對大家都知道應該還是不應該這個不應該再...絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛您當任法務部部長的時候我希望不要發生部長利用上班的時間幫自己好朋友有錢的大老闆去喬他私人的訴訟談和解法務部部長做這件事情不妥嘛對不對這個是好第三件事情"},{"start":670.854,"end":697.968,"text":"去年去年有監聽的名單外泄出來那個時候調查局、廉政署、最高檢察署三個偵辦犯罪的非常重要的機關聯合發了新聞稿說這是典型的認知作戰說這是典型的認知作戰如果說今天外泄的監聽名單全部都是假的"},{"start":699.653,"end":718.063,"text":"然後竟然有人在散播這個假名單當然是認知作戰嘛但問題是裡面散播的裡面有非常多全部都是真的那個時候這個有洩密這個也是在台北地監署在申辦所以齁這個"},{"start":720.577,"end":733.262,"text":"針對目前這個案子台北地檢署的偵辦我要拜託部長齁我不會介入個案的偵辦我只要求一件事情積極查辦因為這件事情很嚴重喔你如果把監聽的名單給外洩的話"},{"start":735.163,"end":740.087,"text":"你會嚴重的阻礙到整個犯罪的偵查嗎?所以台北地檢署會不會公開清楚的跟社會大眾知道裡面是全部都假的還是有很多是真的?所以我想這個要看偵查"},{"start":757.884,"end":773.802,"text":"要還是會偵查不公開的一個作為辦法規定?現在偵查不公開嘛但偵查總會終結嘛我希望偵查終結的時候要負責任的跟社會大眾講這到底是真的還是假的如果是真的誰洩漏出去的該不該追查"},{"start":774.838,"end":791.169,"text":"議員員資質詢"}]}},{"id":"152928","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152928","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453e27caac5c89538635d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e8311d3c98b6bcc9b605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:36:54 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book了。97人，這個成效你滿意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不滿意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：4.1億、四年的時間，我們總共攬到的只有131人，好不容易攬到了131人，也只有97人願意留下，這個問題該當怎麼辦？部長，你有什麼誘因？"],["吳主任委員誠文：很有可能這些人才來到臺灣，學了更好的技能以後，被產業界挖角，這個其實也是我們的成果。我們這個計畫其實已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這樣樂觀其成地看待，本席不滿意你的回復，因為這個是嚴肅的議題，4年你花4.1億，參與的只有131人，你還可以開玩笑的說，如果他跑到企業，你樂觀其成……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不是開玩笑，報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席跟你討論的是，4年4.1億，你剛剛回答的是你不滿意這樣子的結果，所以本席接著問你有什麼方案可以將這個政策更精進？你今天留不住人才，你今天攬不到參與的人，我們是不是要將方向、方法去做調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：未來我們的調整應該是要搭配著產業的發展，學界一直留住人才當然是一個好的事情，但是其實現在我們的學生人數在減少，學界是要菁英，我們培育的人才訓練完以後，其實是要服務社會、要服務產業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要技轉，要到產業去嘛！剛剛第一個……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是、是，所以我是很認真在回答這個問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席給你時間就這個議題，你很認真在回答，我也希望可以看到你的方向，你的攬才補助機制、你的友善措施要怎麼去結盟？請你去盤點，然後書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常的重要，我最後給你一個議題，2050年淨零碳排的政策方向是全球、也是我們國家的政策，我想你也朝這個方向來努力，對不對？所以要怎麼樣達到2050年淨零，我們新興的技術占了非常重要的關鍵角色，所以主委，我也給你一個功課，你認同淨零碳排是關鍵的議題，所以在國科會，你要扮演什麼樣的角色？當然，這個也必須要跨部會，前天我在衛環委員會，我也特別跟環境部部長在討論這個議題，所以未來碳費收益要怎樣用於支持我們整個淨零科技創新的比例，我相信國科會你還要跨部會跟環境部討論，所以往這個方向，我也希望可以瞭解國科會您的立場到底是什麼，你也把書面資料給本席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對2050年的淨零碳排我們要做的政策方向。好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把書面資料給本席，我們再繼續來討論，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。主委請回。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.130968750000001,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.344718750000002,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.51409375,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.922843750000006,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.18596875,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.01159375,"end":122.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.37471875000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.92659375000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.98971875,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.10784375,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.12159375000002,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.62346875,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.06971875000002,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.91659375,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.65034375000002,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.70846875,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.26846875,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.36534375000002,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.84159375000002,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.78159375,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.06346875,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.21909375,"end":200.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.15971875000002,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.77971875,"end":204.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.99471875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":206.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.88034375,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.39846875,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.54096875000002,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.30846875,"end":226.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.10096875000002,"end":236.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.85471875000002,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.28034375000001,"end":241.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.20784375000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.45221875000001,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.55971875,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.09534375000004,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.14159375,"end":266.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":267.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.83721875000003,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.25471875,"end":272.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.73971875,"end":271.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.66346875,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.24534375,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我已經open book給你了97人 這個丞相你滿意嗎?不滿意4.11 4年的時間我們總共參與攬道的只有131人好不容易攬道的131人也只有97人願意留下這個問題該當怎麼辦?部長你有什麼誘因?你有什麼誘因?"},{"start":291.305,"end":293.026,"text":"你這樣樂觀其成地看待本席不滿意你的回覆因為這個是嚴肅的議題四年你只有參與的4.1億只有131人"},{"start":316.912,"end":339.911,"text":"你還可以開玩笑的說如果他跑到企業你樂觀其成本席跟你討論的是4年4.1億你剛剛回答的是你不滿意這樣的結果所以本席接著問你有什麼方案可以將這個政策可以更精進你今天留不住人才你今天攬不到參與的人"},{"start":342.366,"end":351.927,"text":"那我們是不是方向、方法要去做調整?未來我們的調整應該是要搭配著產業的發展"},{"start":353.846,"end":380.272,"text":"學界一直留住人才當然是一個好的事情但是其實現在我們的學生人數在減少那學界是要精英但是我們培育的人才訓練完以後其實是要服務社會要服務產業的所以我是很認真的回答這個問題所以本席給你時間就這個議題你很認真在回答我也希望可以看到你的方向你的"},{"start":382.549,"end":403.921,"text":"懶財補助機制你的友善措施要怎麼去結盟請你去盤點然後順便資料給本席好不好這個非常的重要我最後給你一個議題2050年的淨零碳排的這個政策方向是全球也是我們國家的政策我想你也朝這個方向來努力嘛對不對"},{"start":404.701,"end":405.161,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":428.114,"end":450.606,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":451.397,"end":451.858,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告"}]}},{"id":"152927","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152927","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453091c5e0bd1824b555d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e8306ddca98182fb2df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:29:46 - 12:36:40","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:36:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:29:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時30分）謝謝主席，有請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，首先先跟你恭喜就任，我想這是一個責任，我們也希望你可以帶領臺灣，未來包括我們要推動的所有國際的信賴產業，讓臺灣所有的產業科技面都可以邁向國際。我第一個先跟主委分享，日本政府為了這一次熊本台積電的設廠可以說是挹注了很多預算，甚至協助台積電在熊本設廠，設廠的錢也補助，包括周邊的交通、周邊相關一些產業所需要的大大小小的事，日本可以說為了台積電設廠設想得無微不至，處理得很好。主委，你看到日本這樣做，你會有怎樣的想法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我感覺非常高興，臺灣科技的實力現在能夠被全球看得到，在友善國家的邀請之下，我們也鼓勵我們的廠商可以去拓展國際的業務，能夠把建廠擴散到友好國家，也可以協助當地的發展，也可以在我們國內資源不足的狀況之下，擴展我們產業的市場跟實力，對雙方都有好處。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！這個是產業的布局，不過我更想跟主委講的是，這裡我貼了幾則新聞，包括台積電在去年就獲得中國跟日本補助新臺幣475億元，甚至有新聞說，如果台積電要在熊本設立二廠的話，日本也拍板要補助7,320億日圓來建二廠，總計它投入的金額會高達1.2兆日圓，就是新臺幣2,500億。日本之所以投入這樣的資源，就是因為它知道掌握半導體加上AI就會掌握未來時代的脈動跟趨勢，那我們臺灣呢？台積電會根留臺灣，所以我們要協助台積電在臺灣落實好設廠的每一件事情，我們有這樣的協助嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們協助台積電在臺灣繼續擴散它的製造基地，應該有的協助，政府一定都會幫忙。"],["蔡委員易餘：政府都一定會協助嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一定會協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：我現在跟主委分享一件事，以台積電來說，不用說台積電，如果以半導體來說，我們知道半導體的原料都是進口的，台積電或是所有的半導體廠商他們所生產出來的，不管是成熟製程或是先進製程，我們的目的就是要出口，我們就是要賺出口的錢，我們現在所有的出口，不管是我們的設備、原料的進口，或是他們產品的出口，我們是靠什麼？靠哪一種運輸？"],["吳主任委員誠文：出口啊？當然海運、空運都有吧！"],["蔡委員易餘：應該都是空運吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果是晶片當然是空運，原料就不一定。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果我們出口是走空運的話，我們現在空運的機場夠嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：空運是OK啦。"],["蔡委員易餘：是夠的嗎？就我所知，如果要空運的話，臺灣的空運超過百分之九十都是走桃園國際機場，是吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說的是機場的數量嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊，機場的數量，都是走桃園啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們南部應該要有，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：對啦！我要跟主委說，現在都走桃園，現在南部從高雄、臺南甚至未來嘉義的封裝，它已經變成一個半導體的聚落基地了，但是這些半導體要出口，它要透過一個很長途的陸運，運到了桃園的國際機場，然後再轉空運，然後運到全世界去，現在的生態就是這樣。你看日本為了要讓台積電在熊本設廠，他們願意花這麼多錢只是為了讓台積電設廠，我們臺灣很幸福，我們已經有台積電，而且台積電持續在臺灣布局，為什麼我們的基礎設施不能因應半導體產業再來強化呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是很好的見解，我也很希望有。"],["蔡委員易餘：好啊，主委，這件事就麻煩國科會跳進來主導，讓南部有一個具規模的cargo機場，不管是落腳在哪裡，總是要走出這一步，對不對？未來不管是原料的進口、我們半導體、我們所有封測後、封裝後的產品要出口，是不是我們就需要這樣的機場？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員很好的建議，我會來報告行政院，因為這個涉及國土規劃，我們要在行政院……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我覺得你們真的要好好地跟行政院去盤整，甚至可以去詢問所有半導體的設備商，目前他們運輸成本最重的是占在哪一塊？我相信不是在空運那一端，而是在陸運那一端，為什麼在陸運那一端呢？就是因為陸運距離太長。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，就麻煩主委來「發落」，拜託了，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，主委請回。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.22659375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.816593750000003,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.402218750000003,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.465343750000002,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.039093750000003,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.000968750000002,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.88659375,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.25721875,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.50221875000001,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.52596875,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.75346875,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.87034375000002,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.74284375000002,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.51471875000001,"end":148.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.93596875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.58471875,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.49096875,"end":162.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.84096875,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.18659375000001,"end":166.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.78971875000002,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.13784375,"end":195.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.79784375,"end":202.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.73346875000001,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.48846875,"end":217.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.82159375,"end":206.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.95471875,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.31596875000002,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.54346875000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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這個很好的見解喔 我也很希望有啊好啊 那主委我覺得這件事就麻煩國科會跳進來主導那南部有一個巨規模的加國機場"},{"start":364.774,"end":379.432,"text":"不管是落腳在哪裡總是要走出這一步對不對那未來我們的不管是原料的進口我們半導體我們所有封測後封裝後的產品要出口是不是我們就需要這樣的"},{"start":380.986,"end":404.322,"text":"委員很好的建議我會來報告行政院因為這個國土規劃對我覺得你們真的是好好的去跟行政院去盤整然後甚至可以去詢問所有半導體的這些設備商他們目前他們的運輸的成本最重的是站在哪一塊我相信不是在空運那一端是在入運那一端那為什麼在入運那一端呢就是因為入運距離太長"},{"start":406.343,"end":406.483,"text":"蔡易餘"}]}},{"id":"152926","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152926","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45300a47862eaf9ce6f9f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e831200d471be25e1f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:27:07 - 12:34:44","影片長度":"00:07:37","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":457,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:34:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:27:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1151,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（12時27分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["林委員國成：另外還有勞保局白局長。"],["主席：請白麗真局長。"],["林委員國成：部長，看到你從早上答詢到現在，其實立法院一直在藐視國會，看起來這個法一點用都沒有，為什麼？立法委員尊重部長，部長尊重立法委員，基本上都是在談理，所以藐視國會的問題根本就不存在，所以我們蠻期待部長跟立法委員彼此之間針對問題要相敬如賓，我想沒有任何可以吵的，因為部長在為老百姓做事，立法委員也是為老百姓在做事。我第一個還是要恭喜何部長，大家都知道你過去確確實實對於勞工事務多少有參與，當然看到你被發布，我們很高興，一個是恭喜，另外一個就是不忍心看到你跳入火坑來為勞工做事，我在想這兩者之間都是為勞工，所以首先恭喜，雖然也有一點不忍，但是最後還是要共同為勞工做事。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：我今天要談的有兩個問題，第一個問題我要請教部長，新人有新政，過去不管是陳菊也好，不管是許銘春也好，確確實實對勞工都是基於尊重跟照顧，我也要聽聽何部長對於這個新職你最想推動跟最想做的事，能不能用我的發言時間，讓你跟全國的勞工說明未來最重要、要推動的是什麼事？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實我早上在業務報告也有呈現，對我來講，真的很榮幸有這個機會可以為全國廣大勞工朋友盡一分心力，這也是我當年從事勞工運動的初衷，到現在一如往昔不會變的。跟委員的討論其實一直有提到所謂勞保年改的問題，我也期待透過我的努力能讓全國的勞工朋友放心，勞保絕對不會倒，勞保絕對不會破產，目前的勞保是相關穩健的，我們跟委員都有討論過，也是全國的勞工朋友最大的期待。"],["林委員國成：好。其實勞工真的要的不多，以現在的制度來講，真的勞工還是體恤政府，但是我們勞工就是一點點保障就心滿意足，以現在的情況來講，勞工基本上是求個安穩，不希望重大的改變，這一點提供給何部長做政治判斷的參考。","我現在要來談，任何一個政策作成決定的時候，要很瞭解前因後果，這樣才不會誤判。當然，前一段時間一直在講勞工每天工作、按時繳錢，到最後一天到晚報章雜誌就說勞保什麼時候要倒，我記得好像十幾年前就要倒，到現在還是沒有倒，這個是什麼？危言聳聽，對勞工一點保障都沒有，我是這樣覺得。我要請教真正虧損的部分，在臺灣省政府、臺閩地區的勞保局交給中央政府的時候，也就是84年4月1日健保開始開辦，把醫療撥給健保局的時候，部長，我要提供一個資訊，根本84年以後勞保是不虧損的，希望你回去、白局長你們自己去把原因找出來，真正虧損的地方是臺灣省政府費率5.5，一張保單可以住院、可以保障，這裡是真正虧損最多，因為部長不曉得，我要問問白局長，到底臺灣省政府交給中央政府的時候，你們那個時候有沒有盤點、有沒有精算？"],["白局長麗真：委員好。跟委員做報告，在85年6月勞保局改制的時候，勞保基金餘額是一千七百多億，當時的確有精算，因為費率像委員……"],["林委員國成：我不是指你們精算，是臺灣省政府交給中央的時候有沒有精算，有沒有？"],["白局長麗真：跟委員做報告，當時勞保財務裡面針對勞保局本身的資產及基金都有做精算。"],["林委員國成：沒有，局長，你也是最後才接的。我坦白跟你講，根本沒有精算！虧損多少錢，你們完全不知道，所以那個時候的執政，現在國民黨也要負責任，你們現在當了政府以後，你們當然要概括承受，責任都不能推，但是我可以告訴你一個問題，根本沒有精算，虧多少錢都不知道！所以到84年健保撥出去以後，你們那個時候的虧損黑洞是非常大的，你們要把這個前因後果講清楚。所以就這個部分，我想各黨執政過的都一定要負責任，也不能說完全民進黨……現在民進黨是執政黨，你要概括承受，但是無論怎麼樣去交接、怎麼樣去做決策，勞工的權益是不能受到損害的，這一點我要給何部長一個鼓勵……"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：也要把真相告訴你，請你查得清清楚楚。我坦白講，我這個人講話憑良心，黑洞也不是民進黨造成的，是經年累月累積勞保照顧勞工而造成的，可是要把問題找出來，不能讓勞工覺得自己每天繳費，你們又要我們繳多領少，過去是繳少領多，所以造成這個問題，你們要分析出來，這樣才不會讓勞工產生錯覺，覺得自己有乖乖地繳錢，但是你們卻不乖乖地給付，這一點希望何部長一定要跟院長講這些事實的真相。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["林委員國成：我要代替勞工拜託何部長，這個部分的真相一定要釐清，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，這很寶貴。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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很了解這樣才不會誤判才不會誤判所以當然前一段時間一直在講這個勞工非常每天工作按時繳錢到最後一天到晚報章雜誌就說勞保什麼時候要倒了我記得好像十幾年前就要倒到現在還是沒有倒"},{"start":249.358,"end":266.49,"text":"那這個是什麼?違言聳聽對勞工一點保障都沒有這一點我是覺得那我要請教我要請教到底真正虧損的部分是在台灣省政府臺民地區的勞保局"},{"start":267.287,"end":288.323,"text":"那交給中央政府的時候在84年4月1號健保開始開辦把醫療包給健保局的時候部長我要提供一個自信根本84年以後勞保是不虧損的希望你回去白執行你們去把這個原因找出來"},{"start":288.863,"end":311.682,"text":"真正虧損的地方是臺灣省政府匯率5.5一張保單可以住院可以保障這裡是真正虧損最多那這裡當然因為部長不曉得我要問問白局長到底臺灣省政府交給中央政府的時候你們那個時候有沒有盤點有沒有精算"},{"start":314.384,"end":334.344,"text":"委員好,跟委員這邊來做報告在85年的6月的時候那時候勞保局改制的時候當時的勞保基金餘額是1700多億那當時的確有精算那因為費率像我...精算我不是說你們精算是臺灣省政府交給中央的時候有沒有精算有沒有"},{"start":335.164,"end":356.099,"text":"跟委員做報告當時因為勞保財務裡面有針對勞保局的整個資產跟基金都有做精算沒有啦你們局長你也最後再接的啦我坦白跟你講根本沒有精算虧損多少錢你們完全不知道所以那個時候的執政當然現在國民黨也要負責任啦"},{"start":357.08,"end":378.36,"text":"你們現在當了政府以後你們當然要概括承受所以這一點當然責任都不能推但是我可以告訴你一個問題根本沒有精算虧多少錢都不知道所以到84年健保播出去以後你們那個時候的虧損的黑洞是非常大的"},{"start":378.8,"end":407.655,"text":"所以你們要把這個前因後果把它講清楚所以這個部分我想各黨執政過的都一定要負責任也不能說完全民進黨你現在你是執政黨你要來概括承受但是怎麼樣去交接怎麼樣去做決策勞工的權利是不能去損害的所以這點我要給何部長一個鼓勵也要把真相告訴你把這個查得清清楚楚黑洞"},{"start":408.255,"end":431.952,"text":"我坦白講我這個人講話憑良心也不是民進黨造成啦是日月累積勞保照顧勞工而造成可是要把問題找出來不能讓勞工覺得說我每天繳會啊你們又要叫我繳多要領少那過去是領少那個繳少領多所以造成這個問題把它分析出來"},{"start":432.532,"end":432.652,"text":"謝謝林國成委員"}]}},{"id":"152925","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152925","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45373810a4bb29468ed5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e831b1c8797d1715c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:18:40 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12:29:37","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":657,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:29:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:18:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時18分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員早安。"],["范委員雲：先跟您借一、兩分鐘，因為我剛剛在辦公室聽質詢的時候赫然發現，葉元之委員剛剛還在，我想說他最好不要走，他除了在議會被發現定期會議10次會議中簽到10次、開會0次，上政論節目，罔顧議員的職責之外，來我們立法院是新任的委員，我是上一任的全勤委員，新任委員蹺班放棄質詢權，被大家指責，現在比較收斂一點，可是剛剛他居然在我們立委的質詢台把質詢當政論節目。我也上過政論節目，政論節目也可以嚴謹發言，但是他未經查證，信口開河栽贓同事，言論行為如同網軍，這難道不是藐視國會嗎？這種行為才是藐視國會。","今天我的主題不是性騷，范雲人生中沒有任意抹紅過任何人，也沒有任意說誰性騷，我人生中只有指稱過一位立委性騷，後來就被法院認證，人證、物證齊全，法院認證的性騷犯。他剛剛說我女權雙標，我不敢說我對他黨、本黨的作法完全一致，我們林宜瑾委員可以作證，本黨的原能會主委被報導性騷、性別歧視的時候，我們經過嚴縝瞭解，發現他們內部性騷制度的確有漏洞，我們公開主動要求行政院調查，而且我們說的是調查、說的是嫌疑，我們也沒有說他就是性騷犯。後來果然他被行政院調查，他的確有性別歧視相關的部分，就下台了。","其他政務委員有相關的事情，如果找我，我也協助他們，該道歉就道歉，民進黨的#MeToo事件發生，我主動協助內部建立健全的性別制度，我一直覺得制度比較好，我們國會的性平改革，民進黨接受我的版本。葉元之，你敢跟你們的性騷嫌疑犯說嗎？我非常尊重他，因為他們總召傅崐萁的案子未經調查，你敢跟他說不應該阻撓立法院不分黨派的制度保障嗎？有制度保障才不會讓性騷的指控淪為政治攻擊。葉元之，你敢做到這件事情、你敢跟陳雪生委員說「你應該跟范雲委員道歉」？至今從來沒有跟我道歉過。那我就相信你有一個性騷的標準，不要罵人家雙標了，連標準都沒有，連性騷定義都沒有。","我們回到今天的主題，我一定要嚴正駁斥，主委，我覺得剛剛您的話沒有講清楚，2021年我跟誰開記者會質疑清華大學，即您任教的地方？我是跟經濟民主連合，它是一個非常嚴謹的公民團體，也是最近非常擔心我們國會亂象的團體，他們發現，我經過查證之後覺得有這個問題。清華海峽研究院是清大的校友會跟對岸廈門市政府、北京清華大學成立的，未經向政府申報，就在清華大學校內的育成大樓內成立一個辦公室攬才、投資，引發各界擔心挖角我國高科技人才、竊取技術之疑慮。當經民連開記者會的時候，清大校方說未曾知悉。您剛剛有回應，當時是校長指派你去的，我當年也知道你不是路人甲，您是副校長，校長指派你去表示校方知悉，所以我沒有對你做人身攻擊，我是以副校長不是路人甲為由。這件事情我想請問主委，我們當時有亂指控嗎？請問您，這個被指控背後有中國資金、中方勢力的這個單位，清華海峽研究院目前有沒有在營運？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我目前不知道，因為……"],["范委員雲：您真的不知道？那您真的不關心跟您有關的事，目前沒有在營運。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為當時也不是我的業務。"],["范委員雲：我知道，因為那是2016年的事情，我也收到好幾方人有幫您澄清，我說我們針對的是清華，新聞報導您是校長請你去揭幕，那是2016年的事情了，您知不知道後來這個自強基金會，就是清大校友會背後的這個臺灣民間團體有沒有被經濟部裁罰？您也不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也不知道。"],["范委員雲：我告訴你，他們有被裁罰。那您知不知道清華目前已經沒有在營運的清華海峽研究院有沒有被教育部裁罰？您也不知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也不知道。"],["范委員雲：根據我跟教育部的確認，教育部的網站也有公告，2021年11月8號教育部公告，清華海峽研究院違反法令情事，立即停止其使用，並立即撤離。為什麼？它違反我們國家的兩岸人民關係條例第四十條之二，大陸地區之非營利法人、團體或其他機構，非經各該主管機關許可，不得在臺灣地區設立辦事處或分支機構，從事業務活動。這是違法的事，我們針對違法的事情，我們對於清大校方派副校長去揭幕、參加相關活動，說自己不知悉。我當天最重的話也只有說，清大這樣子，校方是不是有公然說謊的嫌疑？後來的確證明，這個案子就是違反法令，它已經沒有在運作，經濟部已經裁罰自強基金會，教育部也裁罰了清華海峽研究院的執行長，我們就不用說他是誰了。所以我想這是民間團體跟我做為一個教育文化委員會的委員，我們有證據就說到哪裡，然後剛才葉元之委員可以只是覺得您當時委屈，就把我變成是一個抹紅的立委，順便口吐髒水，此風不可長。也因為這個主題，我今天也要接著問您我很關心的主題，本來四題，因為他，今天只問一題。","如何防範國家科學技術成為中國滲透的工具？大家知道教育部跟經濟部很少裁罰學術相關的交流對不對？因為我們一向尊重大學自主，這也是為什麼會有這麼多人跟我陳情，我會去參加那個記者會，而且當時主要的證據就是經民連的研究員講的，我就我看到的部分覺得清華大學不可能不知悉。這件事情難道不嚴重嗎？我們看一下，美國說要採取小院高牆政策，他的晶片法案就是都不准在中國擴展，然後怎麼樣的技術必須要有國安審查，外資交易都要有國安審查。美國最信奉自由市場了，連美國都擔心，半導體、AI、生技等領域的外資交易要國安審查，你就知道臺灣是不是在最前線。我們也給大家一點例子，加拿大今年公布的敏感技術研究領域，點名來自中國85個機構試圖竊取加拿大的技術優勢，所以要求加拿大研究人員避開這些研究組織，否則就無法獲得聯邦資金。我們剛剛講到的清華的例子，大家可以看到，我們的國立大學都有這樣的一個危機跟不夠敏感，我並沒有說他主觀想要怎麼做。","您是國科會主委，過去的事情我知道您有澄清過了，所以我也沒有任何的發言，可是這件事情到現在還有人在帶這種風向，我真的覺得我們必須在敏感的科技領域研究防中滲透策略，之前我們的前主委非常關心這個議題，也有作出相關的一些機制，他也跟我們報告，我們有國家核心關鍵技術認定辦法，持續滾動檢討評估。今天剛好發生葉元之信口開河的事情，是不是主委您可以再談一下，您在國家核心關鍵技術的防中滲透策略，在我們前主委的努力下，您的看法跟立場是什麼？有沒有什麼未來要積極處理的部分？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有改變態度，我們政府當然是以我們國家的發展、安全為優先，所以在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關國際規範，我們也會遵循，政府的政策、法令，我們都會遵循。剛剛范委員所提到的，協助我們國內的學術界、大學去遵循這些法令、限制，我們也會努力去做。"],["范委員雲：好，我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流，包含對岸，但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令。什麼是敏感科技，我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務，我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣，再度觸犯法律被裁罰，這是有國家的法律在，主委您可以承諾善盡提醒的義務嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["范委員雲：主委，您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展，因為您被捲入其中，您是副校長，您當時不知道可以理解，由於您被捲入，也希望您瞭解一下後續發展好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：因為這也是您職責相關的事情，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，范雲委員加油。主委請回。","現在請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.03471875,"end":4.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.64159375,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.21096875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.89659375,"end":67.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.35784375,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.89284375,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.98409375,"end":239.23409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.68971875000003,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.79346875000005,"end":281.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.55659375,"end":282.417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我們在自由民主的社會所訂定的相關的這個國際的規範我們也會遵循"},{"start":592.088,"end":594.69,"text":"我相信很多人是希望能夠做國際學術交流包含對岸"},{"start":612.941,"end":636.384,"text":"但是敏感科技的部分不能觸犯國家的法令什麼是敏感科技我覺得國科會有善盡提醒的義務我們不希望任何一個人像清華大學一樣再度觸犯法律被裁罰這是有國家的法令在那主委您可以承諾就是確定這件事情嗎善盡提醒的義務"},{"start":638.907,"end":654.182,"text":"主委,您說您完全不知道那個案子的後續發展因為您被捲入其中您是副校長那您當時不知道可以理解那您捲入其中也希望您了解一下後續發展好嗎?好,謝謝因為這也是您職責相關的事情好不好?謝謝主委謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152924","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45313b12fed711eea189f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e83e05f67e1e01ac9305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:21:06 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每席想邀請何部長"},{"start":13.53,"end":40.859,"text":"委員好部長先恭喜你上任上任我最關心的就是我們勞保的基金我們看到2023年勞保基金大概負債13.4兆多比上一年度12.3兆多那是增加了將近7300億換句話說每一個人平均他的背的負債大概是56萬"},{"start":42.279,"end":67.792,"text":"那在這種情況之下我沒有看到往前推2020年金算負債是11.5兆那到目前為止因為每一任的部長都會說這個年金會要改革那您新官三任你針對這個議題你要怎麼樣做請教說明委員我剛剛大概已經都有回覆請說明是就是我們會持續進行撥補撥補就是改革"},{"start":73.325,"end":75.026,"text":"請你針對議題你現在是勞動部的部長你不是政治的宣傳者"},{"start":102.429,"end":104.82,"text":"怎麼說呢?你越撥撥啊!"},{"start":106.363,"end":132.835,"text":"你負債越多欸所以你應該要以你勞動部部長的身份去討論我要怎麼樣讓我的勞工能夠安心我的基金能夠增加除了撥補之外還有什麼方法你要宣傳以前沒有以前沒有反而負債沒那麼多你現在負債越來越多你就你現在為什麼要換部長"},{"start":134.016,"end":162.861,"text":"就是因為前任的在執行的當中結果論的答案是不佳的所以你應該針對這個議題啊你怎麼來政治宣傳呢?對嗎?請做說明我跟委員報告我們撥補這四年來勞保的基金水位已經創新高了現在是9941億過去而且是還包括了投資收益所以我們其實要進行開源的努力"},{"start":163.661,"end":166.602,"text":"這是全國的共識嘛!你不能從勞工的身上去撥皮嘛!所以我們現在用撥皮"},{"start":185.958,"end":212.92,"text":"我們現在用撥部的改革來處理你現在是勞動部長好不好請你請你將你認為怎麼樣可以幫我們的基金幫我們的勞工他能夠更安心可以更放心那你把那個你準備你擔任部長之後你希望這個步驟要怎麼做請順便這個給本席好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":214.861,"end":218.303,"text":"接下來本席要請教低薪的問題"},{"start":240.785,"end":252.699,"text":"我想你是勞動部長,你一定站在勞工的這一面。通本吃掉我們的薪資。所以如果以通本再吃掉的部分,我們的薪資是往下掉的。"},{"start":253.7,"end":280.395,"text":"我本期做了一個統計數字會講話平均值我們是只有提高兩趴可是我們的通膨絕對不止這兩趴所以我號稱我們的地心是持續在下降持續在嚴肅的議題所以針對這個部分本期要請教因為我如果以三月份全體受僱的員工的這個部分平均是4.6"},{"start":281.616,"end":281.676,"text":"請出說明。"},{"start":301.343,"end":324.767,"text":"當然委員這個所謂這個加薪追不上通膨這確實是存在的這個我是很佩服您有觀察到這樣子的現象所以我們第一個當然啦這個通膨的問題是跨部會要去解決的啦這我會來持續跟行政院反映因為這牽涉到央行的政策牽涉到我們整個跨部會的問題我也支持你"},{"start":327.849,"end":328.29,"text":"是。是。是。"},{"start":334.281,"end":334.301,"text":"第3個議題"},{"start":364.448,"end":386.609,"text":"大家都非常關心兩個外送平台要合併今天在我們經濟委員會我們的公交會公民會的這個主委他說了他認定因為目前這兩家平台是佔全國平台最多的他也認為這個是獨佔"},{"start":389.944,"end":404.091,"text":"一會成立獨佔會成立那因為這兩家是最大嘛商業我們要讚許他但是問題是他如果兩家併起來的時候他現在送送給公民會那公民會會不會同意有四大項第一個我們整個經濟體系"},{"start":408.8,"end":422.985,"text":"第二個會不會達到聯合行為的一個壟斷那現在兩家是最大而且公平會認為他是獨立最大那兩個都是獨立最大兩個加起來當然是巨數啊那所以這個聯合行為哇這個精髓就到了所以這個也是在他們事項在審查的項目之一這是剛剛我們在這個經濟委員會所討論接下來就你的問題了"},{"start":439.79,"end":467.862,"text":"公平會的主委他說他會找你因為勞動部我要為我們外送平台外送員要請命外送員要怎麼辦所以這個剛剛我們在經濟委員會我問了公平會公平會主委也說外送平台的這個外送員他們的權益也會納在他們是否同意合併的條件之一我把這個備份告訴你"},{"start":469.543,"end":490.923,"text":"所以你必須要站在我們勞工的這個立場他會找你這個是也就是跨部會去討論所以到時候我建請我們部長你一定要堅持在我們勞工的這個立場權力的立場好不好這一點是非常非常的重要所以"},{"start":491.724,"end":519.542,"text":"我今天這三項的議題來跟你做討論我們發覺到現在少子化而且勞工這個老闆找不到工我們現在是缺工缺工你應該知道這個原因吧這個社會面向是缺工但是不要搞到無人可用的境界現在是缺工如果持續惡化下去"},{"start":520.643,"end":543.687,"text":"不要走到無人可用的這個境界所以中高年齡的勞工對我們來講是我們的寶貝啊這些沒有功勞又苦啦中高年齡的勞工是我們的寶貝我們要怎麼樣穩住他們我們要怎麼樣鼓勵我們的新娘我們的青年勞工他願意要加入這個陣容鞏固我們的中高年齡這個基本法"},{"start":550.438,"end":576.208,"text":"的勞工鼓勵我們的青年勞工能夠加入這個社會才不會變成無緣可用的勞工市場啊對不對部長你頻頻的點頭也因為時間的關係我第三個功課我還是要你做功課你把剛才本席第三個議題中高年齡要怎麼穩固它怎麼鼓勵我們青年"},{"start":577.108,"end":597.595,"text":"那麼你也想寫書面資料給本席這三個議題我要你的書面資料結論到時候公平會這個主委找你的時候你務必一定要站在我們外送平台的外送員的一個權益一定要鞏固住好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152922","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152922","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45343b183919073cc7f5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e83c983e64055ff8df45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:10:47 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不常常在用你給個名啦齁阿你 咱台灣給你開發的TID你有利用嗎?要不會要不會都不知道 你知道嗎?我知道你知道TID T-A-I-D-E我來國科會才知道阿你改國科會才知道啦齁阿你知道 有幾個人"},{"start":69.073,"end":70.014,"text":"多少人?多少人?多少人?多少人?"},{"start":97.256,"end":100.419,"text":"現下的多少?現下。現下。現下。在offline的啦。我們沒辦法統計,但是我們放在那個Github上面讓大家當日。你主要都沒在準備。現下1萬人啦。線上600,現下1萬啦。"},{"start":118.229,"end":139.706,"text":"主委你聽一下 主委啊 這你的業務哩 泰德你的業務哩 人家很普遍地說 全世界有open AI 台灣有泰德 說五大聲而已 你看讚不讚但是呢 你看喔 我們做學倫的測驗 仔細看我的那個 PowerPoint 主委啊你看一下 你看我"},{"start":142.302,"end":170.084,"text":"拜託委員我補充一下那個下載的數目您剛剛提的是下載的數目對啦下載就1萬啦8B的模型現在有3萬多個下載你知不知道台灣有多少人用CHED GPT來來來去你處長繼續講我不知道你不知道就讓我告訴你另外一個人講CHED GPT多少人用你知道嗎台灣喔台灣有多少人用你知道嗎你不知道喔"},{"start":171.727,"end":180.274,"text":"有四分之一的臺灣人口用CHAT GPT了,四分之一,五百九十一萬左右啦。啊人家齁都沒門檻捏,啊你這次去泰國都大方外站捏,用這個門檻捏。"},{"start":191.862,"end":214.631,"text":"請問你啊,什麼時候可以變成全民版的,這樣不用去說很專業的就給別人,路人甲路人椅,只要有手機就可以用,什麼時候?你開玩笑嗎?你又不知道呢?你也稍稍準備一下,你還沒準備一下?什麼時候可以用啊?什麼時候全民可以用?什麼時候全民可以用啦?不要公共事辦,什麼時候啦?講一下。"},{"start":219.655,"end":231.165,"text":"我們初期開發的階段是放在下載是希望人家拿去以後可以放在他的APP裡面直接用所以這個數字我們沒辦法統計"},{"start":231.926,"end":236.751,"text":"拜託委員,他這樣回答我了解,就是說現在發展這個態度,他其實是要讓各界專業領域再去訓練他自己專業的模型,並不是那種我們叫general AI是讓一般人："},{"start":254.529,"end":254.569,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":275.218,"end":275.518,"text":"有什麼?衛星"},{"start":303.012,"end":304.274,"text":"大部分都美國。大部分都是美國。"},{"start":322.314,"end":337.999,"text":"在美國,從美國發射。還有在澳洲吧?澳洲沒有。一個是在法國的圭雅那。都是美國,還有哪?你講你講。總共15顆是在美國發射。對,一顆在哪裡?一顆在法屬圭雅那在赤道附近。為什麼不在台灣發射勒?"},{"start":339.785,"end":342.727,"text":"我所知道的是因為當地居民都不願意啦欸我要插到然後也是扁扁腳這樣噪音什麼之類的"},{"start":368.047,"end":391.317,"text":"來跟個委員說明一下那個屏東那個蓄海他是學研用的就是做研究用的只有0.9公頃但現在來講話無論這個在相公所或是地方的居民我們是說使用的時候都經過他們的一些投票同意的百分之八十以上是同意的小問題我就可以這個要結束了"},{"start":392.182,"end":393.648,"text":"我們國艦國造、國機國造、潛艦國造、火箭衛星要不要國造?"},{"start":404.181,"end":413.565,"text":"委員報告現在我們的衛星其實我們大概從十幾年前開始就是往完全自主的方向在走 阿火箭是在去年 阿火箭是去年才啟動計畫 阿這火箭的研發非常複雜需要一定的時間"},{"start":424.037,"end":450.471,"text":"你沒有回答我什麼時候可以我們在台灣自己發射啦根據我們現在的規劃這個是很重要的航太技術全世界很重要的一個指標根據我們現在的規劃是在20302030可以自己在台灣發包括火箭包括火箭喔因為你衛星是火箭射起你的衛星我們自己設計製造在台灣現在沒有問題阿火箭勒阿火箭就是到20302030好謝謝"},{"start":453.917,"end":454.219,"text":"賴士葆"}]}},{"id":"152921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531dc4d17317ae42e79f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e833cf91e161b04d6245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:02:59 - 12:10:49","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":470,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:10:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T12:02:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1022,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時3分）有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員好。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：勞動部是最支持壯世代的，部長知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我知道。"],["吳委員春城：所以你會……"],["何部長佩珊：我個人也很支持。"],["吳委員春城：你很支持？會繼續支持？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["吳委員春城：延續許部長的政策？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝你。整個剛才提到缺工的問題，只是冰山之一角，其實深層的是臺灣人口的結構問題，高齡化、少子化，但是政府並沒有完善的配套措施，所以現在有點爛攤子，是勞動部在收爛攤子。現在政府對於高齡化只有福利，所以幾乎費用都到衛福部了，80%到衛福部，其他部門只要遇到高齡就視而不見、與我無關，但是我在看，面對未來，這可能會成為人口一半的高齡社會，倒三角形。勞動部反而是要負擔主責，在對於未來臺灣人口結構當中，因為人人都要工作，在長壽社會，工作也是價值，也是整個社會的連結，產業、經濟包括到個人各方面都是有所需求，所以部長有這個覺悟嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["吳委員春城：有？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["吳委員春城：對於人口，未來勞動部要扮演的角色，你不是配合者，你可能要變成主導者，要把這個棒子搶回來。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["吳委員春城：撫養比，這個是大家都在擔心的事情，我們現在高齡者就是當分子，被撫養的，工作的人口當分母，因為少子化，所以分母就越來越小；因為高齡化，所以分子就越來越大，目前是4比1，四個撫養一個，到2040年會變成2比1，兩個撫養一個，到2057年會1比1，接下來分子就會大於分母，這叫崩潰的世代，年輕人都被壓垮了、都沒未來了。那怎麼解決？這個是學者都知道、大家都知道的事情，我現在也沒有看到政府針對這樣的狀況有什麼解決方式。我在提倡的壯世代其實是為這個而來，怎麼解決？就是把分子拉下來當分母，把分子壯起來，因為他繼續成為一個生產者、成為一個勞動者以及消費者，有活躍的第三人生，因為現在人都很長壽，我們現在搞了臥床8年，人家北歐國家目標是兩週，也就是未來的老人只有兩週當老人，其他的時間都叫壯世代，繼續可以勞動、可以生產、可以消費，這樣子的分母就強壯起來，壯臺灣嘛！臺灣才會強壯起來嘛！而且世代會共融。所以要解決這個問題，我們現在最大的問題都是銀髮思維，政府這幾年在各個部會當中，包括行政院對高齡什麼科技，只要你過了60歲以後就沒有政策，只剩下一個政策叫長照政策─養生、養病、養老，但是這些人會有30年「沐沐泅」，未來好像在沙漠裡面，所以我們要把他翻轉成為壯世代。有時間的話，我跟部長再找時間好好討論。","關於壯世代，我在這個立法院也成立了壯世代政策產業發展促進會，非常盛大的，有63個跨黨派的立委加入，這個議題是不分黨派的，我們都要一起支持，所以也請勞動部，你們如果要推動這個政策，我們各部分很多都可以來支持你。勞動部目前有推了這兩個措施，55Plus壯世代就業促進措施，還有5050壯世代就業網絡合作計畫，我也看到各地的分署都在積極推動這兩件事情，但是除了這兩件事情，可能要再更深化一點。所以許銘春部長很可愛，他說他要做壯世代代言人，我想他是有感而發，的確真正的領悟到對這一個世代，你可能比較年輕，他可能會覺得真的是退休以後，他要繼續來推動這一個。","另外一個是勞基法的修訂，我也跟王正旭委員聯合修訂了勞基法第五十四條，讓65歲以後不是強制退休，而是可以透過勞資協議當中得延長之，也希望部長支持，而且勞基法對於退休的規定，現在實在是太沒人性了，也不敢太早退休，延後退休也不行，退休以後要回來也很困難，導致於這些人龐大的能力，我們平均退休60歲，60歲現在有600萬人卡在這裡，耗損著整個國力，這個要靠勞基法、靠勞動部來釋放這些人的勞動力。所以不是只有剛才那兩樣，那是救急目前的缺工問題，當然更深化的就是要請部長繼續在勞動部推動，雇主留用65歲要有獎勵措施、要有誘因，同時對勞工也要有誘因、要有鼓勵，各種的措施要提出來，對於現在缺工的行業當中，要積極的來引導中高齡就業協助的各種措施，包括宣傳、企業的講座等各種方面。","第三個，要排除重返職場的困境，事實上包括個人很多的培訓、個人生涯的規劃，很多人到了50歲以後就抱著待退、耗損的心理，所以像這一方面要讓我們的勞動力能夠多方面地開發。最重要的還是，勞基法還有中高齡的就業促進法，最好能夠改名字叫做壯世代就業促進法。因為中高齡是45歲就叫做中高齡，這個真的有點太離譜了，出國唸書回來都40歲了，然後45歲就開始輔導待退，很多觀念真的都非常過時了，部長認同吧？所以我們一起來修改這一個。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["吳委員春城：好的，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員發言。","在這邊作以下宣告：我們中午不休息，直到質詢結束再散會。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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化但是政府並沒有完善的配套措施所以現在有點爛攤子是勞動部在說爛攤子現在政府對於這個高齡化只有福利"},{"start":61.765,"end":86.881,"text":"所以幾乎的費用都到衛福部去了到衛福部80%其他部門就是只要遇到高齡就視而不見與我無關但是我在看整個面對未來這可能會成為人口一半的高齡社會倒三角形勞動部反而是要負擔主責"},{"start":88.542,"end":88.562,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":109.958,"end":121.543,"text":"對於這個人口未來要勞動部要扮演的角色你不是配合者你可能要變成主導者要把這個棒子搶回來這個是大家都在擔心的事情撫養筆我們現在這個"},{"start":125.325,"end":142.258,"text":"高齡者就是當分子嘛,被撫養的然後工作的人口當分母嘛因為少子化所以分母就越來越小因為高齡化所以分子就越來越大目前是4比1,4個撫養一個到2040年會變成2比1,兩個撫養一個到2057年會1比1"},{"start":148.402,"end":175.636,"text":"接下來分子就會大於分母這叫崩潰的世代那年輕人都被壓垮了都沒未來的啦那怎麼解決我現在沒有看到我沒有看到政府針對這樣子大家學者都知道這個是大家都知道的事情我沒有看到有什麼解決那我在提倡的壯世代其實是為這個而來怎麼解決就是把分子拉下來當分母把分子壯起來"},{"start":177.798,"end":191.946,"text":"因為他繼續成為一個生產者成為一個勞動者然後消費者有活躍的第三人生因為現在人都很長壽我們現在搞了臥床八年人家北歐國家目標是兩週"},{"start":193.507,"end":216.818,"text":"也就是說以未來的老人只有兩週當老人啦其他的時間都叫撞世代啦繼續可以勞動可以生產可以消費那這樣子的分母就很強壯起來這撞台灣嘛台灣才會強壯起來嘛而且世代會共融所以要解決這個問題我們現在最大的問題都是引法思維"},{"start":217.978,"end":232.87,"text":"政府這幾年各部門當中包括行政院對高齡什麼科技弄了都把只要你過了60歲以後就沒有政策只剩下一個政策叫長照政策養生養病養老但是這些人會有30年未來"},{"start":236.013,"end":236.153,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":267.494,"end":294.175,"text":"然後勞動部目前有推了這項55plus壯世代的就業促進措施還有5050壯世代的就業網絡合作計畫那我看到這個各地的分署都在積極來推動這兩件事情但是除了這兩件事情可能要再更深化一點所以那個徐民部長很可愛他說他要做壯世代代言人"},{"start":295.376,"end":295.516,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":314.383,"end":329.701,"text":"那另外一個勞基法的修訂那我也跟那個王振旭委員我們聯合修訂了這個勞基法54條讓65歲以後不是強制退休而是可以透過勞資的協議當中得延長值"},{"start":333.826,"end":354.144,"text":"希望這個部長支持而且勞基法對於退休的規定現在實在是太沒人性了也不敢太早退休然後退休也不行退休以後要回來也很困難導致於這些人龐大的人力我們平均退休60歲60歲現在有600萬人卡在這裡卡在耗損的整個國力"},{"start":359.45,"end":360.694,"text":"這個要靠勞基法、靠勞動部來釋放這些勞動力"},{"start":364.482,"end":392.699,"text":"好那精進所以不是只有剛才那兩頁那個是究極目前的缺工問題當然更深化的就是要請部長繼續的在勞動部來雇主留用65歲要有獎勵措施要有誘因那同時對勞工也要有誘因要有鼓勵各種的措施要提出來然後這一個"},{"start":393.9,"end":413.092,"text":"對於現在缺工的行業當中要積極的來引導這個中高齡的就業協助的各種的措施﹖包括宣傳各種的企業的講座各種的方面那第三個要排除重返職場的困境那事實上這個"},{"start":415.273,"end":416.614,"text":"吳春城委員吳春城委員"},{"start":432.228,"end":455.743,"text":"讓我們的勞動力能夠多方面的開發啦可以多方面的開發那最重要的還是勞基法還有中高齡的這個就業促進法那這個最好能夠改名字叫做壯士代就業促進法因為中高齡是45歲就叫中高齡這個真的有點太離譜啦出國念書回來都40歲然後45歲就開始輔導代退"},{"start":459.266,"end":459.786,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員"}]}},{"id":"152920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453a70ab0e80a2bc03e9f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e834e6b963910a1f12d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:52:23 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12:02:53","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":630,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:02:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:52:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":964,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時52分）主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，恭喜你。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛好我今天準備的題目也順著剛剛洪委員的議題繼續，部長看一下我們的簡報，這是網路上一名外送員公布的資料，是他在今年冬天霸王級寒流的時候跑外送的收入截圖。我想要請教部長，你知道左邊這個收入是怎麼算出來嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這個應該是他們的演算法計算出來的吧？"],["廖委員偉翔：用演算法計算出來，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，大概是從12月21號（週四）跑到12月23號，週四、五、六大概三天的時間。您剛剛說演算法算出來的，好，沒關係，正是由於這樣的機制很複雜又不透明，憑良心講，我也不知道是怎麼算出來的，所以「演算法算出來的」的確是一個說法，部長不能確定內容也很合理，這也是外送員目前面臨的困境之一。依照該篇文章的敘述，該名外送員大概每天會跑到12個小時，總收入是8,895元，總單數是132單，平均算起來每一單是67元，部長覺得這樣算多嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這個我可以請處長回答一下。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["王司長厚偉：因為他們計算是以送單……兩家業者不太一樣，像熊貓就用里程數，包括接單費。但是Uber確實是依據不同的時段，有特別的費用，每個地方都有……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我問你的問題比較簡單，我知道他們有一些不同的計算方式，這裡看到每一單是67元，你們覺得多還是少？"],["王司長厚偉：以熊貓來講，他們起跳是40塊，就是里程費，但是不知道每一段的距離跟它的遠近。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我告訴你，每一單67元還是在霸王級寒流，使點外送的人爆增，外送員的人數又偏少的情況之下，它也算是一年當中很少數的高峰，每一單67元算是少數的高峰。如果換成一般的時間，外送員的收入會更少，更何況還沒有包含外送員的油資、設備攤提、罰單、不慎損毀餐點或是沒收到小費等等，對不對？我想要請問部長，你覺得每一單外送費用多少錢才比較合理？"],["何部長佩珊：這個其實就是他們爭議的核心，因為平臺有掌握資料，所以用他們的演算法算出自認為合理的數字，可是從外送員的感受來講，覺得這樣不合理，這一直是他們認知的差距……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，部長，我覺得你講話有點繞來繞去。我剛剛問，你覺得一單大概多少錢比較合理？"],["何部長佩珊：說真的，因為我本身不是外送員，我也無法去算……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我告訴你，部長，很明顯，目前依照外送員工會自行估計，應該要參考基本薪資，每單不應低於61元，因為他大概1個小時跑3單，而且這個還算是比較巔峰的時期，如果少一點的時候，1個小時可能沒有這麼多單，對不對？我覺得61元都算低了，算起來你乘以3單的話，183塊，對不對？是不是？所以算是很低。在現行的情況之下，這一百八十幾塊不含我剛剛講的，他所有的設備攤提、油資等等。在目前的情況之下，以後外送費可能會越來越低，你也認同嘛！因為你有點頭，你覺得有可能會越來越低。"],["何部長佩珊：有可能。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。原因我來說明一下……","我再順便講一下，你可以看到國外幾個地區外送員最低報酬的規定，包含西雅圖有說不得低於最低薪資；德國的部分是扣除勞務成本（機車耗損）後不得低於基本薪資；加拿大還有使用專法，並準用最低薪資、基本薪資；還有紐約州，最低時薪2023年的時候是5.4美元，2024年上調至18美元；還有聯合國國際勞工組織報告，說外送員因為需要自負設備、保險、稅務，因此至少應該為基本薪資的1.5倍，我給你參考一下國際上各個地方的例子。","剛剛講到為什麼未來可能會越來越低？因為兩大外送平臺有可能要合併，它現在等於已經併購了，但是現在在公平會，對不對？不管它未來合不合併，即便未來有可能合併或不合併的情況，現在雙方實質上能夠透過商業整合做出準聯合行為，外送員就更沒有議價能力，外送費可能會被調得更低。這部分部長打算怎麼因應？"],["何部長佩珊：是，因為有合併的衝擊，它都會對消費者跟外送員的權益產生影響，所以我們已經要求公平會，在合併的過程一定要會我們勞動部的意見，我也會親自帶領並反映意見。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長，我就想到你會這樣講，但是你沒有說……不要說未來有沒有合併的情況，你現在要介入啊！其實以Uber為例，去年就已經差點發生平臺片面將外送費改為0元的誇張情形，未來市場如果被獨占以後情況只會更嚴重。即便現在還沒有獨占都已經有這樣的狀況，這些外送員是不是應該被保障？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長覺得應該怎麼因應？目前中央都沒有統一的專法，只能夠靠地方的自治條例約束，可以說是各吹各的調，而且情況更有可能發生在臺北和新北，跨區外送卻受到不同的自治條例約束，部長覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：確實面對各縣市這樣的狀況，我們要有效地統合，而且中央要跨部會，不是只有縣市的問題，還有中央跨部會的整合要處理。外送專法能不能規範到整個中央相關的主管機關，都一致的用專法處理，這個也是我們要考慮的因素。平臺的問題就出在它沒有一個主管機關，理論上應該是交通部，可是它的員工──外送員現在是勞動部管，它的合併案是公平會管，所以未來我們也必須做跨部會的整合，讓這個專法有效，這是比較重要的。"],["廖委員偉翔：你說讓這個專法有效，所以代表你會支持要訂定這個專法，對不對？你可以明白地宣示……"],["何部長佩珊：我覺得我們可以來討論，好不好？委員，我支持你們關懷外送員權益這樣子的努力，這個是非常值得肯定的。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席想要在這裡請部長可不可以明白地宣示立場，然後也告訴我國近15萬的外送員，你支不支持透過訂定專法讓全國統一，藉此保障外送人員的基本收入、健全平臺機制，同時保障平臺、商家與外送員，做出三贏的結果。請問您可不可以承諾，或者是表明您的立場，支不支持這個專法的訂定？"],["何部長佩珊：這些內容都是我們要努力的方向。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你這樣子沒有回答問題啊！你還是要講你支不支持訂定專法，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：我們支持這樣的討論方向……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，細節你覺得怎麼做更好，這個是未來可以一條一條來討論的，可是你必須表明立場，你要跟所有人講，你要表明立場，你支不支持我們所有推動外送員專法這個部分。"],["何部長佩珊：我們支持這樣的討論方向啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：支持討論方向，還是支持推動外送員專法？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我認為推動外送員專法要能夠有效整合，這有前提。"],["廖委員偉翔：你所謂的整合是哪幾個部分的整合？"],["何部長佩珊：因為一個專法有時候只有一個主管機關，我勞動部管的能不能規範到公平會跟交通部那邊，這是一個大問題，所以我們要來討論……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我覺得部長如果可以明白宣示你的立場，這件事情就可以往上、可以跨部會的整合，因為你這邊，我特別指勞動部就是外送員專法嘛！我剛剛也把所有數據算出來，很清楚喔！這些外送員現在面臨的狀況是什麼，所以也希望部長可以理解，真的可以理解到他們現在的情況是很需要我們中央可以有統一的專法來幫他們。"],["何部長佩珊：有。委員，其實我們跟他們非常密切的保持聯絡，5月29日甚至還要推動他們勞資雙方談判。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是另外一個問題。我只要問Yes or No，你要不要支持推動外送員專法？"],["何部長佩珊：我支持這樣的討論方向，我們一起來努力好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：哇！部長，你不能用這句話一直打太極啊！部長，拜託你講一下。那麼我可不可以定調，你並沒有支持要推動外送員專法？"],["何部長佩珊：也不能這樣講啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：也不能這樣講？"],["何部長佩珊：我支持這樣的討論方向。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，你支持幫外送員……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，在立院修法的時候也不是一翻兩瞪眼，不是黑或白。"],["廖委員偉翔：不是黑或白，但是你的態度很重要，因為這就關係……"],["何部長佩珊：我態度支持。"],["廖委員偉翔：你態度支持？好，那我就說我們部長願意支持推動外送員專法來保障勞工的權益、外送員的權益，至於細節內容，我們可以再來討論怎麼創造多贏，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：可以、可以！謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員發言。","接下來請吳春城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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這個應該是他們的演算法計算出來的吧演算法計算出來嘛 對不對好那他這裡大概是從12月21號週四喔跑到12月23號456大概三天的時間喔好您剛剛說演算法算出來的好沒關係這是由於這樣的機制很複雜又不透明憑良心講我也不知道怎麼算出來的所以演算法算出來的確是一個說法喔"},{"start":77.293,"end":93.608,"text":"所以部長不能確定內容也很合理那這也是外送員目前面臨的困境之一那依照他該篇文章的所敘述說大概該名外送員大概每天會跑到12個小時總收入是8895元那總單數是132單那平均算起來每單是67元那部長你覺得這樣算多嗎?"},{"start":106.021,"end":122.22,"text":"我可以請署長回答一下因為他們的計算就是以送單的是兩家業者不太一樣有的是用像熊貓他就用里程數還有包括他接單費但是uber確實是依據他不同的時段有一個特別的費用"},{"start":123.061,"end":136.048,"text":"那他們每個地方都有...沒關係我先問你的問題比較簡單我知道他們有一些不同的計算方式那他每單這裡看到每單是67元你們覺得多還是少?以熊貓來講他們起跳是40塊"},{"start":138.53,"end":165.287,"text":"對對對李森費但是就不知道他每一單的距離跟他的遠近好那我告訴你每一單67人還是因為這個霸王級的韓流喔點外送的人暴增然後這個外送員的人數又偏少的情況之下他也算是一年中很少數的高峰所以67人每一單算是少數的高峰喔如果換成一般的時間外送員收入會更少喔更何況還沒有包含這個外送員的油資"},{"start":166.969,"end":177.223,"text":"設備攤提、罰單、不慎損毀餐點或是沒收到小費等等對不對?好那我想要請問部長你覺得每單外送費用多少錢才比較合理啊?"},{"start":181.309,"end":197.001,"text":"委員這個齁其實就是他們大概是爭議的核心因為他們就是平台他們有他們的掌握的資料所以他們用他們的演算法算出他們自認為合理的數字可是對話雙眼的感受來講他們覺得這樣不合理"},{"start":197.341,"end":214.692,"text":"好沒關係部長我覺得你講話有點繞來繞去的我剛剛問說這一單你覺得一單大概要多少錢你覺得比較合理好那我告訴你部長很明顯目前依照外送員工會的自行估計應該是要參考基本薪資的情況之下"},{"start":215.712,"end":234.765,"text":"每單不應低於61元因為他大概一個小時跑三單而且我說的是這個還算是比較巔峰的時期那如果他少一點的時候一個小時可能沒有這麼多單對不對是吧其實我覺得61元都算低了算起來你乘以三單的話183塊對不對"},{"start":237.768,"end":259.355,"text":"是不是?所以算是很低喔?所以在現行情況之下而且這180幾塊是不含我剛剛講的他所有的設備攤提油資等等的狀況但目前的現行情況之下以後外送費可能會越來越低你也認同嗎?因為你有點頭你覺得有可能會越來越低有可能有可能好謝謝部長那原因下一張我來說明一下"},{"start":261.963,"end":284.338,"text":"欸抱歉你再上一張好了我再順便講一下這個你可以看到國外的幾個地區喔這個外送員最低報酬的規定包含這個西雅圖他說不得低於最低薪資那德國的部分還有扣除勞務成本後然後這個機車耗損不得低於基本薪資還有使用專法並準用最低薪資這個基本薪資這加拿大還有這個紐約州最低時薪2023年的時候5.4美元然後2024年上調至18美元喔"},{"start":292.304,"end":306.342,"text":"還有聯合國國際勞工組織報告外送員因為需要自付設備保險稅務因此至少應該為基本薪資的1.5倍這我給你參考一下這個國際上各個地方下一頁"},{"start":307.659,"end":334.587,"text":"基本上剛剛講到為什麼未來可能會越來越低因為兩大外送平台有可能要合併他現在是購這個他等於是已經併購了可是現在在公平會嘛對不對那不管他未來合不合併啦但即便如果未來有可能合併或不合併的情況之下其實現行雙方實質上能夠透過商業的這個整合做出準聯合行為外送員就會更沒有溢價能力了"},{"start":335.527,"end":357.244,"text":"那外送費可能會調得更低,那這部分部長打算怎麼因應?是,就是因為有這個合併的衝擊,它都會對消費者跟這個外送人的權益產生影響,所以我們已經要求公平會,他在合併的過程一定要會我們勞動部的意見,那麼我也會親自帶領,然後來反映意見,是。好,謝謝部長,所以我要講喔,"},{"start":358.772,"end":371.035,"text":"我就想到你會這樣講但是你沒有說不要說未來有沒有合併的情況你現在要介入啊其實以Uber為例喔去年就已經差點發生平台片面將外送費改為0元的誇張情形了"},{"start":371.823,"end":391.596,"text":"未來市場如果獨佔後,情況也只有更嚴重。那就即便現在還沒有獨佔,都已經有這樣的狀況,他們是不是也應該要被保障,這些外送員?是啊,當然。所以無論部長你覺得應該要怎麼因應,目前這個中央都沒有統一的專法。"},{"start":392.737,"end":406.932,"text":"只能夠靠地方的自治條例來約束可以說是各吹各的調而且其實這個情況還更有可能發生在臺北和新北喔跨區外送卻受到不同的自治的規則約束的狀況部長覺得這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":409.684,"end":439.684,"text":"﹖"},{"start":440.104,"end":440.985,"text":"你會支持要訂定這個專法對不對"},{"start":459.899,"end":478.353,"text":"我覺得我們可以來討論好不好委員 我支持你們關懷外送員的權益的這樣子的努力啦 這個是非常值得肯定的請部長可不可以明白的宣示立場 然後也告訴我國進15萬的外送員 你知不支持透過訂定專法讓全國統一"},{"start":479.694,"end":500.868,"text":"藉此保障外送人員的基本收入、健全平台機制,同時保障平台商家與外送員做出三贏的結果。請問您可不可以承諾或者是表明你的立場,支不支持這個專法的訂定?這些內容都是我們要努力的方向。"},{"start":502.389,"end":527.743,"text":"哇你這個部長你這樣子沒有回答問題啊你還是要講你支持不支持訂定專法我們支持這樣的討論方向沒有細節你覺得怎麼做更好這個是可以未來一條一條來討論的可是你必須表明的立場你要跟這個所有人講你要表明立場你支持不支持我們所有這個推動外送員專法這個部分我們支持這樣的討論方向啊支持討論方向還是支持推動外送員專法"},{"start":528.143,"end":552.379,"text":"就是我認為推動外送人專法要能夠有效整合啦 這個這是前提 這還有 這有前提啦那你所謂的整合是哪幾個部分的整合對 因為一個專法有時候只有一個主管機關啦 你能不能 就是我勞動部管的能不能規範到公平會跟交通部那邊 這是一個大問題所以我們要來討論 如果你有 可以明白宣示你的立場 這件事情就可以往上行 可以跨部會的整合"},{"start":552.919,"end":575.259,"text":"因為你這邊我特別勞動部就是外送員專法嘛我剛剛也把所有數據算出來很清楚喔這個外送員現在面臨的狀況是什麼所以也希望部長可以理解還是真的可以理解到他們現在的情況是很需要我們中央可以統一的專法來幫他們其實委員我們跟他們非常密切的保持聯絡5月29號甚至還要推動他們勞資雙方談判呢"},{"start":576.98,"end":595.983,"text":"是。這是另外一個問題,我是想要問yes or no,你要不要支持推動外送員專法?我說我支持這樣的討論方向,那我們一起來努力好嗎?哇,部長你不能用這句話一直打太極啊。部長拜託你講一下,所以那我可不可以定調你並沒有支持要推動外送員專法?"},{"start":597.264,"end":598.785,"text":"我們可以再來討論怎麼創造多引好不好?"},{"start":626.718,"end":627.36,"text":"可以,可以,好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45391afa8e36a5ab8ef5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e8309594e8b99b3c67d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:50:40 - 12:02:11","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":691,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T12:02:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:50:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請新的國科會主委吳主委，謝謝。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安，辛苦了。我想先請問主委一個問題，剛剛國民黨的葉元之委員在質詢您的時候，他提了那五個字，我實在不想再唸一次，對於常年從事性別平等教育的我來說，我不想再唸剛剛葉元之委員講的那五個字，我想主委應該也不想重複。但是我要強調，從剛剛葉元之委員的發言，主委，你認不認同性別平權教育不能再等待，它應該也要是國科會，從之前很多位主委一直流傳下來，到未來應該也會是您非常重要的施政方向？請您做回應。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：你要不要再多說一點？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意、同意。"],["陳委員培瑜：同意，好，同意，那我們就不要再講那五個字了。我也希望所有的不管是哪一黨的委員，自己的性別平權相關概念如果不足，是不是應該要更加強？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：這也是國科會不管是在做相關政策的推動，或者是相關研究的關懷，甚至是我們等一下會提到的科普列車，我也期許主委在相關的性別平權這件事情上絕對、絕對要再持續，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：免得又發生像剛剛那樣的發言，好，謝謝主委。","昨天您跟舊的主委交接了，就是吳前主委，我很好奇他有沒有跟您說到什麼是他任內還來不及做完的，他還有一些關懷跟有一些熱情的，希望您可以持續推動的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：他其實有很多的想法，第一，就是在國際的拓展，我們跟很多國家有簽訂了雙邊的科技協議。再來就是我們在促進臺灣的產業發展方面，雖然國科會以學界的力量做研發的工作，但是最後還是要落地到能夠協助產業發展，這一部分他也很努力，我也希望能夠持續，那產業的發展不但是我們的科技業，我剛剛也有提到，我們將來也想要協助比較傳統的產業可以利用我們科技的優勢來互相合作，能夠把我們的傳統產業也拉升上來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，您剛剛提到現有的科技產業或是正在發展的科技產業還有傳統產業，都希望有學界研究的力量加以支持，我們當然也非常認同，可是除此之外，我也要拜託主委，要跟您分享，從我去年上任到現在，我們一直在跟前主委談的事情就是對於臺灣兒童跟青少年的研究，其中我們一直標榜、我們一直在意並拜託國科會開啟兒少身心健康的相關研究。","我想要先給主委看一下這張報表，15歲到24歲的自殺死亡率近10年持續上升，我想您身為科學家，你看到這個數字就不用我再多說，我想這張圖表的數字更清楚，它告訴我們15歲到24歲的自殺通報最多，但是更令人擔心、害怕的是0到14歲持續上升。之前在賴總統跟青少年的座談當中，其實有很多小學生也提出來，因為功課壓力、家庭或社區文化或是整個網路環境的變遷，確實有越來越多的孩子們感覺到自己身心健康有狀況，而且是需要大人幫忙的，之前在跟國科會的討論當中，國科會也告訴我們，確實有很多專家學者表示，對於數位時代青少年身心健康的狀態，其實大家是不熟悉的。那我們來看一下，我們之前一直在跟國科會講，其實在國外已經有非常非常多的相關研究在開展，甚至已經有很多研究成果在分享出來。但是回到臺灣本地，其實臺灣自己的社區議題、家庭議題、教育議題跟其他非常多的國家有非常多的不同，那我們有沒有機會在這個不同點上促使臺灣更多專家學者願意在國科會的支持下投入相關研究？主委，您聽到目前為止有什麼看法？主委，您認不認同用國科會的力量來支持臺灣的專家學者、教授進行兒少身心健康的相關研究？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同，也希望能夠增加。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，主委，在您的認知底下，我們到底還能夠做哪些事情？在去年10月18號我們拜託前主委對相關的研究可以開啟，我們也非常感謝國科會確實在當時也協同教育部還有衛福部開啟了相關會議的討論，可是看起來大家認為有跨部會的問題，或者是如何取得這些學生資料的問題，或者是一旦有很多研究必須要進入校園當中，可能會有很多實務上的困境。所以我要再次強調，這件事情在新主委上任之後，您剛剛也說您非常認同，那您覺得在實際的作法上您可以怎麼樣鼓勵相關專案研究的開啟？或者是提出一個更大的計畫來主動積極地邀請臺灣不同領域，但是跟身心健康有關、跟認識兒少有關，甚至是跟家庭教育、學校學習環境有關，共同開啟一個跨部會的研究或是跨科別的研究，主委可以簡單表示一下意見嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：據同仁跟我講，我們已經在啟動了，就是委員關心的這個事情已經在啟動，那我會關注這個事情，我會持續來協助，並連結其他的部會。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那這個相關啟動，我想因為時間有限，我就不勞您今天在這邊報告，我們辦公室也會持續對國科會追蹤到底進度到哪裡，或者是實務上可能面臨的困難會是什麼。好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來我們要談一下，主委，您自己的LINE裡面有沒有加入災防中心的社群，就是你手機的LINE，你這樣微笑看著我，就是沒有啦！我跟你分享一下，去年我們在跟國科會開會的時候，國科會建議我說：委員，你可以加入，我們就真的有加入了，然後在地震之後果然是很有幫助的。主委，你知不知道我們這個災防中心的LINE帳號不僅可以闢謠，重點是它可以在第一時間提供正確資訊，在0403大地震當天，除了各地的災情回報之外，我的手機所收到的第一個謠言就是在龜山島的頭掉了，大家就很緊張，很多人瘋傳，但是當時就有正確的資訊出來闢謠，主委，你知道目前臺灣有多少人加入這個災防中心的LINE帳號？"],["吳主任委員誠文：163萬人。"],["陳委員培瑜：你的同仁很盡責，是163萬人，可是少你一個人，主委，拜託你要加入。去年這個災防中心的LINE帳號發出了3億7,000萬則訊息，主委，你眉毛抬了一下，你對這個數字感到很驚訝，對不對？而且這些訊息非常非常重要。好，我們來往下看，這麼多訊息是如何協助國人，這個事情非常非常重要，可是在0403地震後1個月，災防中心因為發送LINE訊息超過1億則導致系統熔斷而無法發出訊息，你們很快地做出回應也做出調整，從此以後這個訊息數標榜是沒有上限，這個部分可不可以請主委或是請您的幕僚說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請主任來回答。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["陳主任宏宇：委員，你好，就是在4月22號因為超過了1個月的上限也就是8,000萬則……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，超過了8,000萬則。"],["陳主任宏宇：現在我們跟LINE公司談妥了，它要給我們無上限，也就是吃到飽。"],["陳委員培瑜：那後續這個合作會持續下去嗎？"],["陳主任宏宇：會持續下去，因為它給我們的是公益帳號。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們希望這個要持續，這個非常重要，如同您今天公開宣示的，這個會持續下去，因為我覺得這個不是只有在災難的時候，其實在發生天災人禍的時候，重要訊息在第一時間傳播出去是非常重要的，也請國科會持續在這件事情上保持關注。"],["陳主任宏宇：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。主委，您是來自運科中心，在運科中心的網頁裡面有一些非常重要的資料，我們認為您到國科會來也許可以持續地讓你的同仁協助往下推動相關政策，就是所有運動科學的相關知識，它必須要作為一種跟社會溝通的方法跟手段，您認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：認同。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你認為在運動科學是這樣，那一般的科學呢？或是更廣泛的，包含剛剛有非常多委員問到AI，你覺得這些科學知識需不需要更花力氣、更用很多的方法跟新時代的公民溝通？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，除了溝通之外，我們知道其實國科會過往在科普活動上你們做了列車，然後也做了進校園的活動，甚至在今年新增了所謂從小孩視角探索的Kids' Science，你們有人文沙龍，有TTA TALK活動，但是我們要再次提醒國科會，其實在科學技術基本法入法之後，關於所謂科學普及這件事情在立法說明裡面有一段文字，我想要再次拜託國科會，也許過往不在國科會的視野當中，但是未來我希望國科會可以努力提升這件事情，這段文字就是所有的科學技術研究發展預算的研究計畫制定的時候，應納入科普推廣的考量，要讓國人可以進一步瞭解國內科研預算的使用成果，提高一般民眾對於科學知識的瞭解跟興趣，還可以成為知識經濟產業升級的動力。主委，不管是知識的傳播或是知識經濟產業升級，你怎麼看這件事情？你可以請你的幕僚回答。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我個人認為這是很正面的，我們應該做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請處長來回答。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["蘇處長碩斌：人文處跟委員報告，其實這個概念是非常正確的，因為各行各業包括我們所有的專業領域裡面，其實這幾年已經真的在調整了，過去我們都認為應該是專注在基礎研究，但是我們已經都開始在拍影片，不只是科國處而已，連各處都已經在做這些事情，所以請委員放心。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，對這個部分我們辦公室當然會持續的追蹤，我的時間到了，那我要把握時間，我最後要再一次拜託主委，這件事情很重要，性別平權教育不能等，相關的國科會推廣研究或是相關政策的推進，拜託主委在您的任內一定要持續關注這件事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然我們剛剛說的青少年身心健康、科普推廣或是知識經濟產業升級這些事情也非常重要，但是我覺得這個基本公民常識也要拜託主委跟國科會，拜託更多的學者專家一起努力，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳培瑜委員，主委請回。","我們現在就先來處理解凍案7案，請議事人員宣讀。","一、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「財團法人國家實驗研究院發展計畫」預算凍結1,000萬元書面報告，請查照案。","二、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(二)「財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心發展計畫」預算凍結500萬元書面報告，請查照案。","三、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(三)「非營業特種基金」預算凍結2,000萬元書面報告，請查照案。","四、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(七十)「資訊服務費」預算凍結百分之五書面報告，請查照案。","五、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送新竹科學園區管理局決議(一)「園區業務推展」預算凍結20萬元書面報告，請查照案。","六、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送中部科學園區管理局決議(一)「園區業務推展」預算凍結20萬元書面報告，請查照案。","七、國家科學及技術委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送南部科學園區管理局決議(一)「園區業務推展」預算凍結20萬元書面報告，請查照案。"],["主席：總共有七案，我們先來處理第一案，第一案是國科會的第4目財團法人國家實驗研究院發展計畫預算編列72億4,513萬1千元，凍結1,000萬元，請問各位對本案解凍有沒有意見？（無）如果沒有意見，准予動支，提報院會。","第二案是有關於第5目國家同步輻射研究中心發展計畫的預算，編列了21億3,435萬3千元，凍結500萬元，請問各位對本案解凍有沒有意見？（無）如果沒有意見，准予動支，提報院會。","第三案是第6目非營業特種基金預算編列430億3,187萬6千元，凍結2,000萬元，有沒有委員有意見？請陳培瑜委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我先說我沒有要堅持，但是還是要再次提醒國科會，關於科普列車的擴大辦理，特色車廂，之前其實有很多委員提醒過，我記得林宜瑾委員也有提醒過，就是不是花很多錢在行銷上，然後把那個列車畫得漂漂亮亮，而是關於實質的內容，或者如何讓科普教育這件事情更深入校園，或者是做更多的社會溝通，我覺得要請新的主委上任之後針對相關政策作一些調整跟改進，但是在預算的部分，我們沒有堅持，謝謝。"],["主席：好，主委要回應嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我們會檢討改進。"],["主席：對於這個案子我有一些提醒跟意見，就是有關於AI是未來不可忽略的趨勢，可是我覺得不只倫理的使用規範要好好研究處理，法制面也應該要做一些規範，框住AI的合理使用，我想這是很大的重點，所以請國科會制定相關的法制，不只是發展指引而已，應該是整個的相關法制，這樣才能讓AI的使用未來能夠法制化，我想這點是一個提醒。","另外在運科方面，因為我們看到補助12個研究團隊，研究10個項目，不過我們知道運動項目太多種了，所以是不是可以再多補助一些新興的、有潛力的、在國際上可以奪牌的運動項目？希望也納入思考跟研究，就是擴大目前補助的項目，希望透過運科來增加運動量能。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，這個案子就解凍，准予動支，提報院會。","第四案是第1目「一般行政」項下「資訊管理」中的「資訊服務費」，預算編列5,888萬4千元，當初是凍結5%，請問各位對解凍有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，就准予動支，提報院會。","第五案是有關於新竹科學管理局第4目「園區業務發展」，編列預算1億5,143萬4千元，凍結20萬元，大家對於竹科的解凍案有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見的話，就准予動支，提報院會。","第六案是有關於中科的「園區業務發展」，編列1億1,026萬7千元，凍結20萬元，請問對於中科解凍案有沒有意見？（無）如果沒有意見，就准予動支，提報院會。","第七案是關於南科，當初編列的預算是1億3,430萬8千元，凍結20萬元，請問對於南科的解凍案有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見。本席有一點小小的提醒，因為當初會凍結其實是因為有一些租金逾期沒有收回，我知道你們有努力，也有收回部分，可是好像還是沒有完全收回，所以執行的力道要再加強，再積極一些。那第七案也准予動支，提報院會。","七個解凍案都處理完畢，接著處理臨時提案，有林委員倩綺的提案，林委員在場，請宣讀。","案由：有鑒於前瞻處跟科技辦公室緊急要求國研院儘速提出「113年臺灣可信任生成式AI大語言模型精進與素養能力推動計畫」，並安排審查會議，該計畫執行期間僅數月、編列近億元，並趕在主委交接前匆促分配定案完成。請國科會對於該計畫始末流程進行檢視，是否有圖利瀆職之嫌，並盡速回覆立法院教育文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　柯志恩　　洪孟楷"],["主席：請問林委員對於提案有沒有要補充說明，或者請國科會來回答的？"],["林委員倩綺：請國科會回答。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這件事情我們同意要來檢討，但是在用字上面是不是可以刪除「是否有圖利瀆職之嫌」？我們答應會在一個月內來回復。"],["主席：好，就是把最後一行的「是否有圖利瀆職之嫌」刪掉，因為主委有答應在一個月內回復，所以將「並盡速回覆立法院教育及文化委會」改成「並於一個月內回覆立法院教育及文化委會」。"],["林委員倩綺：好，同意。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，本案就修正通過。各提案如果有委員補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄。","接著請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.56596875,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14.99909375,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.437843750000003,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.53409375,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.712843750000005,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.19096875,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":59.312843750000006,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.055343750000006,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":60.072218750000005,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.08909375,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":60.12284375,"end":60.375968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":71.58096875000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.88471875,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.62846875000001,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.86284375000001,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":107.35596875,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":109.92096875,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":125.12534375000001,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":129.32721875000001,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.97784375,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.11096875000004,"end":271.144718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那有請新的國科會主委吳主委 謝謝好有請吳主委主委早安辛苦了我想先請問主委一個問題"},{"start":21.476,"end":36.387,"text":"剛剛國民黨葉元之委員在跟您質詢的時候他提了那五個字我實在是不想再念一次喔對於長年從事性別平等教育的我來說我不想再念剛剛葉元之委員講的那五個字我想主委應該也不想重複齁"},{"start":37.788,"end":58.134,"text":"但是我要強調從剛剛葉元芝的委員發言主委你認不認同性別平權教育不能再等待他應該也要是國科會從之前很多位主委一直流傳下來到未來應該也會是您非常重要的施政方向請您做回應是是你要不要再多說一點"},{"start":59.329,"end":84.398,"text":"同意同意同意好同意那我們就不要再講那五個字了啦我也希望所有的不管是哪一黨的委員自己的性別平權相關概念如果不足是不是應該更加強應該加強這也是國科會不管是在做相關政策的推動或者是相關研究的關懷甚至是你們我們等一下會提到的科普列車我也期許主委您在相關的性別平權這件事情上絕對絕對要再持續好嗎"},{"start":87.479,"end":103.045,"text":"免得又發生像剛剛那樣的發言。好,謝謝主委。昨天您跟舊的主委交接了,前吳主委。我很好奇他有沒有跟您說到什麼是他任內還來不及做完的,他還有一些關懷跟有些熱情的,希望您可以持續推動的。他其實有很多的想法。"},{"start":110.126,"end":123.23,"text":"一、國際的拓展我們跟很多的國家簽訂了雙邊的科技協議再來就是說我們在促進台灣的產業發展雖然國科會"},{"start":125.211,"end":150.564,"text":"以這個學界的力量做研發的工作但是最後還是要落地到能夠協助產業發展這一部分他也很努力那我也希望能夠持續那這個產業的發展不但是我們的科技業我剛剛有提到我們將來也是想要協助比較傳統的產業也可以利用我們的科技的優勢來互相的這個合作能夠把我們的傳統產業也能夠把它拉升上來"},{"start":151.024,"end":155.168,"text":"好,謝謝主委,您剛剛提到了現有的科技產業或是正在發展的科技產業還有傳統產業都希望有學界研究的力量加以支持我們當然也非常認同可是除此之外我也要拜託主委跟您分享"},{"start":165.998,"end":171.259,"text":"從我去年上任到現在我們一直在跟前主委談的事情就是關於對於台灣兒童跟青少年的研究其中我們一直標榜我們一直在意拜託國科會開啟相關兒少身心健康的研究我想要先給主委看一下這張報表15歲到24歲自殺死亡率近10年持續上升我想您身為科學家你看到這個數字就不用我再多說"},{"start":193.304,"end":218.88,"text":"這張數字、這張表格我想更清楚它告訴我們15歲到24歲自殺通報最多但更令人擔心害怕的是0到14歲持續上升之前在賴總統跟青少年作談當中其實也有很多小學生也提出來他們確實也因為功課壓力家庭或是社區文化或是整個網路環境的變遷確實有越來越多的孩子們感覺到自己身心健康而且是需要大人幫忙的"},{"start":219.861,"end":234.506,"text":"之前在跟國科會的討論當中國科會也告訴我們確實有很多專家學者表示對於數位時代青少年身心健康的狀態其實大家是不熟悉的那我們來看一下我們之前一直在跟國科會講"},{"start":235.506,"end":262.842,"text":"其實在國外已經有非常非常多的相關研究已經在開展甚至已經有很多研究成果在分享出來但是回到台灣本地對於台灣自己的社區議題家庭議題、教育議題其實跟國外非常多國家非常多的不同那我們有沒有機會在這個不同點上促使台灣更多專家學者願意在國科會的支持下投入相關研究不知道主委您聽到目前為止您有什麼看法不知道主委您認不認同"},{"start":263.863,"end":282.332,"text":"用國科會的力量來支持臺灣的專家學者教授進行兒少身心健康的相關研究我認同希望能夠增加所以主委在您的認知底下我們到底還能夠做哪些事情在去年的10月18號我們拜託前主委在相關的研究可以開啟"},{"start":283.172,"end":300.647,"text":"我們也非常感謝國科會確實當時也協同教育部還有衛福部開啟了相關會議的討論可是看起來大家認為有跨部會的問題或者是如何取得這些學生資料的問題或者是一旦有很多研究他必須要進入校園當中他可能會有很多實務上的困境"},{"start":301.167,"end":328.376,"text":"所以我要再次強調這件事情在新主委您上任之後您剛剛也說你非常認同那您覺得在實際的做法上您可以怎麼樣鼓勵相關專案研究的開啟或者是一個更大的計畫來主動積極的邀請台灣不同領域但是跟身心健康有關跟認識兒少有關甚至是跟家庭教育學校學習環境有關共同開啟一個跨部會的研究或是跨科別的研究主委這邊可以簡單表示一下意見嗎"},{"start":329.69,"end":339.897,"text":"我們據同仁跟我講我們已經在啟動了就是委員關心這個事情已經在啟動那我會關注這個事我會持續來協助來連結我們其他的部會"},{"start":345.201,"end":347.283,"text":"接下來我們要談一下主委您自己的LINE裡面有沒有加入災防中心的這個社群?"},{"start":362.889,"end":377.786,"text":"你這樣微笑看就是沒有啦我跟你分享一下這個也是去年我們在跟國科會開會的時候國科會建議我說委員你可以加入我們就真的有加入囉然後在地震之後呢果然是很有幫助的齁那主委你知不知道我們這個災防中心的LINE帳號"},{"start":378.787,"end":404.187,"text":"他不僅可以闢謠,重點是他可以第一時間提供正確資訊。0403大地震的時候當天除了很多各地的災情回報之外,第一個我的手機所收到的謠言就是龜山島的那個頭啊,掉了。大家就很緊張瘋傳,但是呢當時就有正確資訊出來闢謠。那主委你知道嗎目前台灣有多少人加入這個災防中心的LINE帳號?"},{"start":405.487,"end":425.394,"text":"一百六十三萬有有你的同仁很近者一百六十三萬可是少你一個主委拜託要加入這樣那我們去年呢這個災防中心的LINE帳號發出了三億七千萬則訊息主委你眉毛抬了一下你很驚訝對不對這個數字而且這些訊息非常非常重要我們來往下看"},{"start":428.342,"end":450.66,"text":"好,那這麼多訊息他如何協助國人這個事情非常非常重要可是呢在0403正後一個月災防中心因為發送LINE訊息超過1億則導致系統熔斷無法發出訊息你們很快做出回應也做出調整從此以後呢這個訊息標榜是沒有上線這個部分可不可以請主委或是請您的幕僚說明一下好我請主任來討論好謝謝"},{"start":451.861,"end":458.164,"text":"委員你好也就是4月22號啊他因為超過了一個月是超過了8000萬折對那現在我們跟那公司啊這個談妥了他要給我們吳上線也就是吃到飽啊那後續這個合作會持續下去嗎會持續下去好我們希望這個要持續"},{"start":468.709,"end":469.169,"text":"主委您是來自運客中心"},{"start":489.258,"end":489.338,"text":"您認同嗎?"},{"start":507.754,"end":521.097,"text":"那你認為在運動科學是這樣那一般的科學呢或是更廣泛包含剛剛有非常多委員問到AI你覺得這些科學知識需不需要更花力氣更花很多的方法跟新時代的公民溝通"},{"start":523.241,"end":543.329,"text":"除了這個溝通之外您認為我們其實照國科會在過往在科普活動上你們做了列車然後也做了這個競效員的活動那甚至呢在去年吧今年新增了這所謂小孩的角度的視角Kids Science你們有人文沙龍有TTA Talk活動但是我們要再一次提醒國科會"},{"start":544.733,"end":563.792,"text":"其實在科學技術基本法入法之後相關會與所謂科學普及這件事情在立法說明裡面有一段我想要再次拜託國科會也許過往不在國科會的視野當中但是未來我希望國科會可以努力提升這件事情就是所有的科學技術研究發展預算的研究計畫制定的時候應納入科普推廣的考量"},{"start":568.277,"end":584.309,"text":"要讓國人可以進一步了解國內科研預算的使用成果提高一般民眾對於科學知識了解跟興趣還可以成為知識經濟產業升級的動力主委您怎麼看這件事情不管是知識的傳播或是知識經濟產業升級"},{"start":587.73,"end":594.338,"text":"您可以請您的幕僚回答。我個人認為這是很正面的,我們應該做。好,謝謝。其實這個概念是非常正確的,因為各行各業"},{"start":602.329,"end":603.209,"text":"主委﹗主席再給我30秒就好了。"},{"start":631.784,"end":653.289,"text":"這件事情很重要性別平權教育不能等相關的國科會推廣研究或是相關政策推進拜託主委在您的人內一定要持續關注這件事情當然我們剛剛說青少年身經營康科普推廣或是知識經濟產業升級這件事情也非常重要但我覺得這個基本公民常識也要拜託主委跟國科會拜託更多學者專家一起努力謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":660.436,"end":662.401,"text":"主委請回。那我們現在就先來處理解凍案7案。請議事委員員宣讀。"},{"start":671.312,"end":690.145,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會行為1月23年度中央政府總預算決議解凍財團法人國家實驗研究院發展計劃預算凍結1000萬元書面報告請查照案國家科學及技術委員會行為113年度中央政府總預算決議解凍財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心發展計劃預算凍結500萬元書面報告請查照案"}]}},{"id":"152918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531d63938abb107ed89f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e8343e9052c5e581b275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:41:30 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11:52:17","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":647,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:52:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:41:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時41分）主席謝謝！麻煩請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：何部長，第一天來立法院備詢，但之前你是用其他的身分，不過我想以勞動部長身分第一天，我必須要說，剛剛看了你接受幾個委員的質詢，我覺得你還沒有準備好，實在話講，為什麼？陳亭妃委員、民進黨委員剛剛問的那一個問題──各產業缺工的人數？哪一個部會有整理了？"],["何部長佩珊：其實我們的平臺會議……"],["洪委員孟楷：國發會整理的，可以問一下國發會，google一下，就google得到國發會，國發會就有講經濟部各產業缺工現況，國發會每三年會做一次報告，就有把重點的產業統計出來缺工狀況。昨天本席在經濟委員會質詢國發會副主委的時候，也有問到相關的問題，IC產業或是AI產業現在缺工的狀況差不多兩萬五千人，各其他行業也有其他的缺工人才，所以這個部分可以跨部會瞭解。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，勞動部重要的工作是在於，很多委員都有問到年金改革，我剛剛看到今天一個標題寫說，撥補就是改革，就是現在我們新任部長所講的話、發言，所以意思是，您宣告有可能在你任內不會推動年金改革，是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：就是這句話「撥補就是改革」，我們會延續撥補的……"],["洪委員孟楷：撥補就是改革，所以不會有其他的動作？"],["何部長佩珊：未來我們會持續推動撥補的改革。"],["洪委員孟楷：持續推動撥補的改革，就撥多或撥少，但不會做其他的部分，是不是？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：我們會有開源的一些作法啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：2024年2月29日前任部長許銘春他上專訪的時候講，勞保缺口不能只靠撥補，解決問題還是要改革；結果新任部長第一天到立法院講說缺口就是撥補，解決問題沒有其他方式了，不會要改革了。所以我就不禁好奇啊！之前一直傳說勞動部長有可能許銘春會持續留任，但到最後最後一刻變成您，是不是因為他講了這句話，跟現在新任總統的方向不一致，所以就換一個可以貫徹新任總統意志的人？所以新任總統的方向就是──勞保缺口就是靠撥補、就是不用做其他改革，是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！這就是我現在的作法。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，留下紀錄。但是我們也看到，您真的認為現在的這個年金相關的制度都沒有任何需要再調整或是討論改變的地方嗎？賴清德總統之前在選總統的時候有講過，當然他講的有一些話很好聽──有政府勞保不會倒、有政府給大家靠；但是他也有提過說要社會共識來尋求解決問題的方式，其中我們有提到提撥率6%的部分，到目前為止也都沒有調整。"],["何部長佩珊：這是另外一個部分的問題，這是勞退條例的部分能不能再提高？這要修法。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["何部長佩珊：這要進行修法，我們會來研議處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：會有研議處理？"],["何部長佩珊：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您認為怎麼樣的一個方向是大家覺得合理而可行的？因為今天也在做政策對話，所以我也要瞭解……"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然、當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：您新任部長的一個想法，之前大家也都有提過，勞團也呼籲提高雇主的提撥率，現在是6%，之前的講法說6%是最低標準啦，你們可以用勞資雙方去協商，你們也可以提高提撥率啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我們現在有沒有掌握？本席也想請教另外一個統計掌握的問題，有沒有掌握我們目前全國的企業裡面，哪一些企業的提撥率高於6%？有多少比例的企業現在提撥率是高於6%的？多少比例？"],["何部長佩珊：現在的提撥率，只要是企業的部分其實應該都有提撥……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！6%是最低標準……"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！最低啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是我們法律規定……"],["何部長佩珊：而且是一定要做……"],["洪委員孟楷：一定要嘛！我們之前提過勞團一直呼籲說要提高，那你們一直強調是說6%只是最低標準，你們協商就可以提高。本席現在的問題就是，到底有哪個企業是透過協商之後提高提撥率的？"],["何部長佩珊：不高啦、不多啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：當然不高啊，一定不高啊！"],["何部長佩珊：就不多啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：一定不高啊，如果說高的話，我們就不用用法令訂定一個最低的地板嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以我們現在要研議來推動修法。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，研議修法。"],["何部長佩珊：這個我們會做。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，您覺得應該要提高到多少才算是您心中的目標？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個部分我們還必須跟勞資雙方來協商啦……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你覺得現在6%是要提高的，但是要提高到多少，目前你還沒有一個定見？"],["何部長佩珊：不是沒有定見……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有定見就講出來啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是我們還必須討論，我們還必須討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是不方便把部長的底牌掀出來？"],["何部長佩珊：哈哈哈哈！容我私下跟您報告好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要私下啦！我們在私下很怕都是密會協商，我們大家都希望公開透明。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，今天……"],["何部長佩珊：而且我要跟委員報告，這個也要考慮整個景氣變動的因素啦，也就是說，我們可能要……"],["洪委員孟楷：過去蔡英文政府的時候，不是講說臺灣景氣是史上最好，股市兩萬多點……"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是，當然、當然、當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！這樣的話，因為你講到景氣，如果以現在政府大內宣的狀況，我覺得翻1倍感覺都可以期待囉？是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，現在我們是準備很積極來推這件事情啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：積極是多久內會有？"],["何部長佩珊：我們儘量、我們儘量。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要都用文青式的語言，來立法院我想它就不是……我們是公開討論政策，您能夠推動、能夠負責，不要預期在野黨給你掌聲，但是我相信在野黨一定理性地監督。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會惡意地來阻撓，但是既然講出來，你們時間點就要做。另外，因為時間到，但我最後一分鐘，本席從第10屆就一直在推動外送平臺跟外送員的保障專法。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：第10屆的時候我就有送出相關的草案，第11屆我現在也已經送出來。剛剛有委員提到，就是因為現在兩大平臺業者龍頭也要併購，不管併購與否有沒有成案，可是對於14萬名外送員勞工的保障、餐廳、業者的保障，以及消費者權益的保障，都應該要有一個專法；對於各縣市現在也都有訂定安全指引，但不管指引再怎麼訂定，就是比不上正式立法的約束力。我先肯定一下前任部長，他至少在我講的時候說，一個禮拜內要把過去跟外送平臺還有相關開會的紀錄上網，一個禮拜內確實做到了，本席也看到了。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是還是不夠，在於不能每一次跟外送平臺的溝通都要靠部長，或是都要靠我們官員約他們來喝咖啡，而是應該要真的確立最基本的一個保障跟專法，想請教部長您的態度？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能支持？"],["何部長佩珊：這是我們要去努力的方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：努力的方向？所以部長支持我們能夠有一個外送平臺專法？因為現在大家也覺得，外送員不是之前所提勞基法保障的勞工，他算比較非典型的勞工，非典型勞工就應該有彈性的保障，所以我們才會強調要有外送員及外送平臺的相關專法，它能夠保障外送員、餐廳及消費者的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：對，不過我還是要強調一點，推動專法的目的是要協助外送員可以跟強勢的平臺談判，要對這個有幫助，但是外送員彼此之間是不是有共識，這個要考慮。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，你總不可能訂定一個專法……我說實在話，不是讓哪一方強勢，而是保障最基本的、大家合理的權益，這兩者不一樣。我沒有說一定是站在……如果哪一天外送員的力量大到平臺受不了，我也覺得應該要平衡，但重點在於什麼？重點在於現在很明顯平臺的權力大，兩個龍頭的議價空間、制定規則的能力已經大過很多，如果未來併購之後變成一家龍頭，我剛剛也詢問過公平會主委，世界各國到目前為止還沒有哪一家獨大的外送平臺。"],["主席：洪委員，等一下是不是請勞動部長……"],["洪委員孟楷：你如果去找其他產業的話，就變成是壟斷市場。"],["主席：勞動部長等一下會後再跟你報告，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，專法的部分……"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的態度說會努力，本席已經提出來了，我相信有其他委員的版本，我們正式排審的時候，我要看到勞動部保障勞工的決心，可以嗎？"],["主席：是不是請勞動部會後再跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：最後要回答一下，你說「好」但是沒有錄到音，這樣子不行，按個麥克風講一下。","真的啦！沒有啦！我要結束了。"],["主席：好啦！因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要結束了。"],["主席：洪委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要結束了。"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，我知道，最後部長說好，但是因為你剛剛沒有按麥克風……"],["主席：會後請勞動部再跟洪委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：說這個「好」都不能留下紀錄？"],["何部長佩珊：我們尊重主席的裁示。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們加油，好不好？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，後面還有很多委員要發言。","好，接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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是啊那這樣的話依您講到景氣如果以現在政府大內宣的狀況我覺得"},{"start":391.544,"end":397.227,"text":"當然現在我們是準備很積極來推這件事情的積極會多久內會有我們盡量不要多用文青式的語言來立法院我想他就不是我們是公開討論政策您能夠推動能夠負責"},{"start":414.056,"end":440.074,"text":"不要預期在野黨給你掌聲但是我相信在野黨一定理性的監督當然不會惡意的來阻撓但是既然講出來我們時間點就要做那另外因為時間到但我最後一分鐘本期從第10屆就一直在推動外送平台跟外送員的保障專訪是第10屆的時候我就有送出相關的草案第11屆我現在也已經送出來"},{"start":440.851,"end":459.42,"text":"那剛剛有委員提到就是因為現在兩大平台業者龍頭也要做合併購那在不管併購與否有沒有成案可是對於外送員14萬名的外送員勞工的保障餐廳業者的保障以及消費者權益的保障都應該要有一個專法"},{"start":461.201,"end":484.746,"text":"那對於各縣市現在也都有訂立安全指引但不管指引再怎麼訂立就是比不上正式立法的約束力我先肯定一下前任部長他至少在我講的時候說一個禮拜內要把過去跟外送平台還有相關開會的紀錄上網一個禮拜內確實做到了本席也看到了但是還是不夠在於是"},{"start":485.246,"end":514.486,"text":"不能每一次跟外送平臺的溝通都要靠部長或是都要靠我們官員約他們來喝咖啡而是應該要真的確立有一個最基本的一個保障跟專法想請教部長您的態度當然能不能支持這是我們要去這個努力的方向努力的方向所以部長是支持如果說我們能夠有一個專法外送平臺專法因為現在大家也覺得是說外送員不是"},{"start":515.851,"end":534.819,"text":"我們之前所提的這個勞基法保障的勞工他算比較非典型勞工非典型勞工我們就應該要有彈性的保障所以我們才強調是說有外送員及外送平台的相關專法能夠保障外送員保障餐廳保障消費者權益"},{"start":535.718,"end":551.093,"text":"對,不過我還是要強調一點我們推動專法目的是要幫協助外送委員可以跟強勢的平台談判要對這個有幫助啦那外送委員他們彼此之間是不是有共識這個要考慮你總不可能另一個專法"},{"start":552.25,"end":569.693,"text":"本席其實我說實在話我覺得說不是說讓誰哪一方有強勢而是保障最基本大家的合理的權益這兩者不一樣我沒有說一定是站在如果說哪一天外送員的力量大到是說平台受不了"},{"start":570.214,"end":594.284,"text":"我也覺得應該要有平衡但重點在於是什麼重點在於是現在很明顯的就是平台的權益大兩個龍頭他們的議價空間他們的制定規則的能力已經大過很多那如果說未來併購之後變成一家龍頭我剛剛也詢問過我們公平會主委公平會主委就是說世界各國到目前為止還沒有哪一家獨大的外送平台"},{"start":595.25,"end":616.886,"text":"那你如果說去找其他產業的話就變成是寡占市場、壟斷市場所以部長專法的部分你的態度說會努力本席已經提出來了我相信有其他委員版本我們正式排審的時候我要看到勞動部保障勞工的決心可以嗎?"},{"start":619.141,"end":635.915,"text":"最後要回答一下說那個好你沒有錄到音這樣子不行來按個麥克風講一下好真的啦沒有啦我要結束了我要結束了我知道就是最後那個部長說好但是因為你剛剛沒有麥克風這個好都不能留下記錄部長我們加油好不好好因為時間的關係"}]}},{"id":"152917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453cca13d3657b8058e5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e832418cf11d8ba20085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:37:59 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11:50:39","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":760,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:50:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:37:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：吳主委好，恭喜上任，歡迎加入我們教文的大家庭，叫你吳主委，感覺很親切，因為上一個也是吳主委。我今年年初才來立法院就職，跟吳政忠主委相處時間比較短，相信接下來我們會有一段很長的合作時間，本席感到非常的期待。","為什麼開頭要聊到政忠主委？因為今年3月的時候，吳主委進行了業務報告，2個月後你新上任，也做了業務報告，當然我們有共同關注到幾個重要的科學議題，但是我想民眾會更想知道的一件事情是，您接任國科會主委，您跟吳政忠主委有什麼差別？在業務執行上有什麼風格不同？未來有什麼特別要處理的政策？可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們過去非常注重經濟的發展，因為經濟發展好的話，我們才有足夠的能力協助整個社會文化的提升，所以我想在我的任內除了延續原來在科技產業很努力的研發、產業的推動之外，我們也會努力的協助整個社會文化的提升，利用我們科技的優勢來協助各行各業。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們一起努力，各行各業，我希望不管是從上到下，基層很多行業也需要幫忙，不要讓他們覺得國科會很遠，不要讓他們不知道有國科會的存在。","本席想要向主委詢問一下晶創方案，回到我們施政的主軸上，這個方案目前加速推動四大布局，也就是推動生成式AI、幫助百工百業、強化國內的培育環境、吸納全球頂尖人才，你本身有在用生成式AI嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：坦白講，我個人有用過，但還不是很滿意。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有用過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，個人用。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對生成式AI不是很滿意，還是你使用的過程不是很滿意？"],["吳主任委員誠文：以生成式AI來講，我們要知道它的能力、它的限制，因為它使用了AI統計式的方法，它不可能達到百分之百準確，符合你要的答案……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，但是你有研究我們年輕人說的，生成式AI有所謂的魔咒咒語，你會使用相關的咒語嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我目前沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所謂的咒語就是它的指令，我想這個是瞭解生成式AI可能需要的一個先期目的。經濟部合作推動加速異質整合以及先進的技術開發，最後就是要推動矽島的實力，我們更希望能夠在國內外新創的同時吸引投資來臺，這個計畫預計10年內要投資3,000億，今年第一年就投入120億，之前國科會期許5年會有多家IC的新創在國內誕生，半年過去了，具體執行狀況如何？有沒有進展？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我可以請我們負責的同仁……"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以，請說。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：關於IC新創，因為剛開始執行，我們已經正式開始launch一個全球call案的競賽規劃……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：也因為剛開始，所以我們未來幾個月，在年底之前會再跟委員報告，update整個狀態。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為已經半年了，所以就只是目前這樣子？主委，您覺得呢？聽完他剛剛說的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們加速、加速……"],["涂副處長君怡：我們5月14號有一個Grand Challenge開始啟動，6月30號會結案，目前我們有在跟相關的SEMI還有半導體領域去促案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：聽起來好像有做事，但是主軸具體好像也看不出來半年了大概做了些什麼，但沒關係……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我會關注一下。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個過程我相信有努力，剛剛你講了很多的這個算是日程嗎？或者是你們的一些會議，OK，但是我們希望的是，半年了，有沒有準備要做什麼？有沒有進展的一個具體的方向？讓我們能夠更確定的知道。我想問主委，在ChatGPT剛問世的時候，你有沒有使用過？你剛剛有說。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有沒有什麼？使用過？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，有使用過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在可以說是LLM的世代，為什麼這樣說？因為目前國科會有TAIDE模型；聯發科有自己的模型；台智雲有福爾摩沙大模型；群創光電有白龍模型，大家都致力於在打造繁體中文模組的AI模型。上個月（4月）15日，國科會才釋出了TAIDE-LX-7B的模型，說是結合臺灣文化，擁有70億參數的大型語言模組；緊接著Meta又釋出自己一個相關的模組；國科會立馬在4月29號又發表了Llama 3 Alpha 的模型，這個研發速度可以說是AI的軍備競賽，令人感受到你們的積極度。但我想詢問一下，包括你們的資料庫來源，目前可以提供你們的資料庫來源，大概都來自哪一國嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的資料庫來源應該都是臺灣的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都是臺灣自己的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，在臺灣本土收集的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以70億全數都來自臺灣？好。我想我不敢說自己是專家，我也不敢在你們面前說我多瞭解，但我自己有去稍微瞭解一下，我們目前發展的基礎是以Meta開發的Llama 2模型，也就是我們現在使用的是開源的資料，它在prerational的過程中就已經有簡體中文的資料，我們頂多可以給它看繁體資料，但不能避免這個開源模型已經有簡體資料，對吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個可能會存在的，對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果我們想要完全避免簡體資料，進而開發一個全面的繁體資料，應該會遇到兩個問題。第一個問題就是本土的資料庫不足，跟全世界來比，數據量遠遠不足。第二個更大的問題就是，如果是只有繁體的資料，就需要重新訓練，對吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就本席自己查的資料瞭解到，重新訓練沒有幾萬片H100的GPU辦不到，目前臺灣國家隊大概只有72片，遠遠低於國外的新創團隊與大企業，請問要如何重新訓練？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們正在努力加速建置我們的運算資源。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛說的GPU數量有錯嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請國網中心主任來回答。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK。不好意思，因為我看到您不是很肯定的，我想說給你回答都沒關係，我們可以互相的……"],["張主任朝亮：報告委員，去年TAIDE計畫展開的時候，我們購置了72片H100的GPU……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對嘛，72片。"],["張主任朝亮：就是您剛剛提的，但是我們的臺灣杉二號本來就有2,000片的V100，在國網掌控裡面的有1,000片。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我剛剛說的要重新訓練，我們估計要幾萬片的GPU，目前我們只有72片。如果我們只能基於還是有簡體資料的前提下，多加入了繁體資料，只能做到繁體中文的微調。本席想瞭解，就這樣的基礎所開發的AI模型與OpenAI的ChatGPT也好，或是和Google的具體落差在哪裡？目前繁體中文與所謂簡體中文的資料，在訓練數據中比例各占多少？是否有具體的數據可以提供一下？"],["張主任朝亮：簡體跟繁體的比例其實並沒有精確的統計，但是Llama釋出的時候，有提到它的中文的比例是多少，可以拿來作為參考，但並不是說本來是簡體，它就一定會，你如果餵很多的繁體中文，事實上會改變它的參數，繁體中文的表現會越來越好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。所以我剛剛問說，以我們的AI模型跟OpenAI的ChatGPT以及Google的相較，具體落差在哪？"],["張主任朝亮：他們的模型是非常大的模型，是從頭訓練起，我們是fine-tuning和continuous pretraining，所以當然是有其差距在。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣聽起來，我想我們的差距不是微幅，是非常的巨大，因為畢竟我們要跟國外相比，我們也要看使用者到底未來想使用的，他具體希望得到的成效是什麼。他當然會希望不管是語言模組或者是後續的資料庫，能夠有龐大的資料去支撐生成式AI所生成的東西，才可以加大它生成式出來的資料是有確定性或者是穩定性，甚至是我們說的準確性能夠提高，這是一個使用者希望能夠追求的嘛。本席目前有看到國科會定調，希望作為一個資助開源模型的資助產業，例如工研院電光所可以運用TAIDE結合相關的技術，或是針對鋼鐵的產業知識提供智慧化的問答檢索，詢問高爐或電弧爐的相關產業知識。除了這些，我們還計劃將TAIDE 7B運用在哪些具體的產業上？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：跟委員報告，對於協助產業的部分，現在我們有公開釋出，然後他們可以使用的，目前像醫療體系有表達使用TAIDE的興趣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想就是公開，大家各自使用啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為不同的專業，要用不同的資料來訓練。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，我覺得，主委，討論到這樣子，我們不覺得很奇怪嗎？國科會真的有具體瞭解到臺灣產業的需求嗎？我們對於百工百業未來在使用生成式AI上，到底能夠提供什麼樣的具體幫助？我認為發展本土化繁體中文LLM模型我們支持，我們也不希望看到簡體中文，但是在本土化的過程中，到底能不能期待我們的資料能夠更多元，能夠跟國外相關的，比如說OpenAI的ChatGPT的資料庫相互比擬？我想如果臺灣發展的是一個只能搜尋少量英文、繁體中文本土資訊的搜尋引擎，其商業價值我相信是比較低的，為什麼？因為我認為還是要回歸到AI工具實不實用。所以，講白了，OpenAI的ChatGPT如果沒有大量全球的知識去擴充，只有臺灣本土的知識，主委，你個人覺得它實用嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：通用型的AI跟比較專業的AI是不一樣的，這是訓練資料的差異，所以我們在臺灣要發展各行各業用的AI，它的訓練資料就要用各行各業的資料。生成式AI的好處就是說，你的資料量不足，但是廣度夠的話，它可以產生非常多的訓練資料，幫它做得很好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想國科會應該要實事求是，我們應該要去擴充發展自己的LLM的工具，讓企業廣泛來使用。本席具體要求國科會研議企業LLM訓練方案，臺灣需要的不是那種很簡單的搜尋引擎，我想臺灣需要的是發展適合中小企業，可以訓練LLM的一個簡易工具，主委能夠答應我們來研議嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會鼓勵學界努力做這個事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們大家一起來努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，主委請回。接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.03096875,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.14721875,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.559718750000002,"end":46.234718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.690343750000004,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.85534375,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.26409375,"end":88.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.70909375000001,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.13471875,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.74971875,"end":129.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.28471875,"end":136.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.68471875,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.62971875,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.78159375,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.81534375,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.03471875,"end":143.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.09784375,"end":139.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.46846875,"end":156.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.12909375,"end":155.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.31034375000002,"end":164.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.57471875000002,"end":166.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.33409375000002,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.23596875,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.00784375,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.08784375000002,"end":205.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.89721875,"end":209.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.55096875,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.97284375,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.22034375,"end":219.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.61159375000003,"end":227.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.70409375000003,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.10846875000001,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.12534375,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.24346875,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.26034375,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.49659375000002,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":235.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.93909375,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.37346875000003,"end":238.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":240.11159375000003,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.48909375000002,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.55596875000003,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.10346875,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.96659375,"end":287.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.37409375000004,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.65659375,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.55909375000005,"end":335.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.18096875000003,"end":337.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.91909375,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.25221875,"end":348.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.37721875,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.36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GPT剛問事的時候你有沒有試問過"},{"start":288.373,"end":311.538,"text":"剛才有說有沒有什麼使用過對有使用過那現在可以說是一個世代為什麼這樣說因為目前國科會的泰的模型聯發科有自己的模型台智雲有福爾摩沙大模型群創光電有白龍模型大家都致力於在打造繁體中文模組的一個AI模型那因為上個月"},{"start":312.478,"end":336.931,"text":"四月十五國科會才釋出了Tide 7B的模型說是結合台灣文化擁有70億參數的大型語言模組我想緊接著呢Meta又釋出了自己的一個相關的模組國科會立馬又在四月二十九號又發表了Lama3 Alpha的一個模組"},{"start":340.02,"end":354.874,"text":"請問這個研發速度可以說是AI的軍備競賽感受到你們的積極度但我想請問一下包括你們的這個資料庫的來源目前可以提供說大概來源資料庫來源大概都來自哪一國嗎?"},{"start":356.454,"end":372.477,"text":"我們資料庫的來源應該都是台灣的都是台灣自己是在台灣本土收集的所以70億全數都來自台灣我想我不敢說自己是專家我也不敢在你們面前說我多了解"},{"start":373.038,"end":398.067,"text":"但我想有自己去稍微了解一下我們目前發展的基礎以META開發的一個LM2的一個模組模型也就是我們現在使用是用開源的一個資料他在pressuring的過程中就已經有簡體資料的一個簡體中文的資料我們頂多可以給他看繁體資料但不能避免這個開源模型已經有簡體資料對吧"},{"start":401.433,"end":426.728,"text":"這個可能會存在的對如果我們想要完全避免檢體資料進而開發一個全面的繁體資料應該會遇到兩個問題第一個問題就是本體的資料不足數據量遠遠不足我想跟全世界來比第二個更大的問題就是如果是只有繁體的資料就需要重新訓練是對吧是就本期"},{"start":427.688,"end":447.678,"text":"自己查了資料去了解重新訓練沒有幾萬片H100的GPU辦不到目前台灣國家隊大概只有72片遠遠低於國外的新創團隊與大企業請問要如何重新訓練我們正在努力在加速建置我們的運算的資源我剛說GPU數量有錯嗎那個國王我請國王中心主任來回答"},{"start":456.513,"end":475.363,"text":"不好意思因為我看到您不是很肯定的我想說給你回答都沒關係我們可以互相的報告委員去年台德計劃展開的時候我們構置了72片的H100的GPU但是我們台灣32號本來就有2000片的V100在國王掌控裡面有1000片"},{"start":476.61,"end":500.669,"text":"所以我剛說的重新訓練我們估計要幾萬片的一個GPU那目前我們只有72片如果我們只能基於還是有簡體資料的前提下多加入了繁體資料只能做到繁體中文的微調本席想了解那麼就這樣的基礎所開發的AI模型與OpenAI、ChapGPT也好Google的具體落差在哪裡"},{"start":501.109,"end":509.538,"text":"目前繁體中文與所謂的簡體中文資料在訓練數據中比例各佔多少?是否具體的數據可以提供一下?"},{"start":512.007,"end":538.505,"text":"這個簡體跟繁體的比率其實沒有一個精確的統計但是拉瑪事出的時候他有提到他的中文的比率是多少那可以拿來做參考但是並不是說本來是簡體他就一定會你如果為很多的繁體中文他事實上說會改變他的參數繁體中文的表現會越來越好好所以我說剛剛以我們的AI模型跟openAI、chip、gpt、google的具體落差在哪?"},{"start":540.421,"end":568.15,"text":"他們的模型是非常大的模型是從頭訓練起我們是fine tuning和continuous retraining所以當然是有他的差距在我想那聽出來我們的差距不是微幅是非常的巨大因為畢竟我們要跟國外相比我們也要看使用者到底未來想使用的他的具體希望得到的成效是什麼他當然會希望不管是語言模組或者是後續的資料庫"},{"start":569.15,"end":596.975,"text":"他能夠有龐大的資料去支撐生成式AI所生成式的東西才可以加大他的生成式出來的資料是有確定性或者是穩定性甚至是我們說的準確性能夠提高這是一個使用者他希望能夠追求的那本席目前有看到國科會定調希望作為一個資助開源模型的資助產業例如工研院電光所可以運用的"},{"start":598.215,"end":606.206,"text":"結合相關的技術或是針對鋼鐵的產業知識提供智慧化的問答檢索詢問高爐或電弧爐的相關產業知識除了這些我們還計畫將泰德7B運用在哪些具體的產業上"},{"start":618.325,"end":630.281,"text":"對於產業的協助我們是以公開釋出他們可以去來使用的目前表達興趣的像醫療體系他們有表達興趣來使用這個type"},{"start":631.477,"end":654.782,"text":"我想就是公開大家各自使用啦是因為不同的專業要用不同的車來訓練主委討論到這樣子我們不覺得很奇怪嗎國科會的會真的有具體了解到台灣產業的需求嗎我們到底要提供百工百業在生成式AI未來能夠使用上有什麼樣的具體幫助我認為發展本土化翻體中文LM"},{"start":655.822,"end":674.637,"text":"模型我們支持我們也不希望看到簡體中文但是在本土化的過程中到底我們的資料能不能期待他能夠有更多元能夠納到跟國外的相關的我們說的chip gpt open ai的資料庫"},{"start":675.698,"end":704.187,"text":"來做一個比擬。我想台灣如果發展了一個只能搜尋少量英文、繁體中文、本土資訊的搜尋引擎。這個其價值、商業價值我相信是比較低的。為什麼?因為我認為還是要回歸到AI工具實不實用。所以我想講白了OpenAI、ChapGVT如果沒有大量全球的知識去擴充只有台灣本土的知識。主委你個人覺得它實用嗎?"},{"start":705.127,"end":723.144,"text":"通用型AI跟比較專業的AI是不一樣的這是訓練資料的差異所以我們在台灣我們要發展各行各業用的AI它的訓練資料就要用各行各業的資料甚至是AI的好處就是說你的資料量不足但是廣度夠的話它可以產生非常多的訓練資料幫它做得很好"},{"start":723.84,"end":751.715,"text":"我想國科會應該要實事求是我們應該要去擴充發展自己的LLM的一個工具讓企業廣泛來使用本席具體的要求國科會研議企業LLM訓練方案台灣需要的不是那種很簡單的手續引擎我想台灣需要的是發展適合中小企業可以訓練LLM的一個簡易工具主委能夠答應我們來研議嗎我們會鼓勵學界努力做這個事情我們大家一起來努力好不好 謝謝"},{"start":753.612,"end":753.893,"text":"羅廷瑋主席"}]}},{"id":"152916","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152916","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45391dfe3556a3457679f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e83720e17fc406f2b395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:33:04 - 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- 11:38:46","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":442,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:38:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:31:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1124,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請我們法務部鄭部長以及我們銀行局局長，還有證期局代表。"],["主席：剛剛點到名的請上臺，包括部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。因為本席今天有洗防法的提案，洗防法的問題當中主要是針對打詐的部分，現在詐騙集團的介面，除了電話、網路之外，最關鍵的就是虛擬貨幣，現在虛擬貨幣幾乎是無政府狀態，以至於詐騙集團的洗錢管道都朝向了虛擬貨幣。在上一次劍青改的討論當中，劍青改成員對於現階段金管會的作為非常的不滿，所以我想問你站在法務部部長的角色，就他們不滿的一個很關鍵的原因，就是金管會並沒有全面性的納管，是選擇性的納管，也就是只有採取深度監管，沒有採取廣度監管，這種情況底下會有掛一漏萬，造成了第一線的檢查人員、檢察官的負擔非常之重，你有沒有期待整個行政納管應該把它廣面化？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的關心這個議題，目前初期我們先做一個洗防法的納管，因為這也是經過多方的廣納意見，至於委員所提到的，再更廣面、更深度的納管，我想我們可以再做一個……"],["郭委員國文：我覺得你要強烈地表達意見，部長，到目前為止，整個金管會的內部，從銀行局移撥到證期局，也不過從23家變成25家有法遵聲明而已，到目前為止約略有60家，還有包括個人的幣商，還有其他黑數，很多都沒有納入管理，即便你今天通過所謂的登記制，有限度的限縮方式，也沒有辦法達到一個納管的目的，也沒有達到一個洗錢防制的功能，部長，所以針對這一點，你應該強烈的要求金管會做全面性的納管，部長，有沒有可能？你對這個業務可能還不是非常清楚啦！","另外，他們也期望、強調要有差異化的管理，也就是大規模金控跟小規模的當舖，每一個地方借錢的方式都不太一樣，不可能承擔所有管理成本的規模，部長，這個都是基層檢察官的心聲啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：洗錢法目前還是在一個洗錢的防制上，剛才委員有關心的，要普遍性的納管、更深入的納管，我想這個我們也是有建議過金管會就專法來做……"],["郭委員國文：有建議過金管會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有建議就專法來做處理。"],["郭委員國文：那我接下來請教金管會的組長，部長已經有強烈的建議，你們看法怎麼樣？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，就專法部分我們已經有委外研究，大概在今年9月底之前會有……"],["郭委員國文：可是剛剛委員有講，可能要把洗防法當成母法，這樣以後會有專法嗎？確定？現在不是還在評估而已？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，專法與第六條通過之後的子法，兩個案子都有在做委外研究。"],["郭委員國文：有沒有可能全面性納管？"],["黃組長錫和：我們在受理申請時，不管是現在的法遵聲明或以後……"],["郭委員國文：你們就是個案審查，這樣非常侷限！部長都已經跟你們開口了，金管會要有積極作為，好不好？今天的法條如果通過的話，尤其第六條或第六條之一通過的話，你們應該要有積極的作為，不要讓第一線的檢察官承擔太多，也不要讓詐騙的風氣越來越猖獗，好不好？可以嗎？"],["黃組長錫和：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。主席，有請周萬來周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：那兩本書還有那些會議資料……"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，因為……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有收到？"],["周秘書長萬來：有收到。但因為恰好是總統就職典禮，委員也可能去，所以我沒有……"],["郭委員國文：對，因為當天晚上我去住院，隔天是禮拜六、禮拜天，也不能送過去。你很清楚，我是針對書，不是針對你，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時我想應該……要資料……"],["郭委員國文：針對那些資料、會議資料，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["郭委員國文：我沒有出手攻擊你，我有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為在推擠中，難免會……那個時候因為椅子會滑動……"],["郭委員國文：主要是拿你的書，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我拿著書，而那個椅子會滑動……"],["郭委員國文：那是椅子。"],["周秘書長萬來：還好我的同事壓在後面。"],["郭委員國文：我有看到你跌坐在椅子裡……"],["周秘書長萬來：結果我沒有跌倒。"],["郭委員國文：我問一下，你有嚇到嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時是有一個驚訝而已，不知道突然會有這個動作……"],["郭委員國文：需不需要帶你去收驚？"],["周秘書長萬來：倒沒有……"],["郭委員國文：不用嘛……"],["周秘書長萬來：就有點刮傷。"],["郭委員國文：所以不用帶你去收驚？"],["周秘書長萬來：應該不至於、不至於。"],["郭委員國文：不用？不用？"],["周秘書長萬來：不至於，沒有到那個地步。"],["郭委員國文：我問你一個實質的問題好了。剛剛鍾佳濱委員問說，未來立法院公報是一個很重要的關鍵！也就是說，在沒有採取記名表決，而是採取舉手表決的情況下，依照立法院目前的紀錄，不管照片也好、錄影也好，有沒有辦法判別出哪些委員反對、哪些委員贊成？有沒有辦法判別？"],["周秘書長萬來：舉手表決不大可能，除非去照照片……"],["郭委員國文：對、對，議事人員有沒有可能依照照片來判讀哪一個人贊成或反對，有沒有可能？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果真正去看帶子，是有可能……"],["郭委員國文：可以判別出來嗎？判斷得出來的話，那以後立法院公報在公報的文字記錄上，可不可以記錄哪些人贊成，哪些人反對？依照舉手表決的情況。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["郭委員國文：根據判別、判斷基礎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為在舉手表決的方式裡，一般來講是不會去考量顯示……"],["郭委員國文：所以只會記錄總人數？即哪些人贊成的總人數，還有哪些人反對的總數而已？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["郭委員國文：不會用這種方式？如果將來找你去現場作證，要你提供相關資料的話，有沒有辦法作為判准的依據？"],["周秘書長萬來：以委員人數的贊成、反對當然可能會有……"],["郭委員國文：會有判准的依據？我覺得你要站在議事中立的角色……"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：不要老是在議事規則轉彎，我提醒你。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝你，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：你相助過王金平，也相助過韓國瑜，你要請韓國瑜多學學王金平。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員，謝謝周秘書長。","跟委員會報告，依先前徵得委員會同意於11點半處理臨時提案。剛剛11點半時間屆滿，本席也有宣告不再受理提案，也徵詢大家同意，在郭委員詢答後就進行處理。","現在處理臨時提案，共一案，宣讀後我們再處理。請宣讀。","臨時提案1（修正本）","為確保立法院各種會議在議決法律案、預算案等，具法律位階法規範之議案時，必須依《立法院職權行使法》第6條等、立法院《議事規則》第35條、第36條及其他相關規定，以具「具名表決，效力之表決方式進行表決，俾以維護未來若有合憲性爭議時，本院委員依《憲法訴訟法》提出釋憲之聲請要件，以保障本院解決憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　陳俊宇　　吳思瑤　　"],["主席：因為本席是提案委員，我這裡做一個補充說明。倒數第二行：「以保障本院解決憲政爭議」，把「解決」拿掉，就是「以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑」，多了兩個字，「解決」是多的。","針對臨時提案，請問在場機關有無其他意見或說明？"],["黃委員國昌：你是問機關還是問……"],["主席：問機關有沒有意見。沒有的話，我們就請問現場其他委員有沒有意見？先請羅委員智強、再請謝委員龍介、再請黃委員國昌、翁委員曉玲，時間3分鐘。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得主席很認真提案，這點要肯定他。針對主席的這個提案，我們待會會來討論，但剛剛主席不受理我四個提案，理由是時間因素，沒有關係！我覺得如果主席這提案能夠一同把我的四個提案都送進來、一起討論的話，更能彰顯這次立法院民進黨的偉大！雖然主席說我的提案逾時不受理，不過我可以念給大家聽。","第一個提案，有鑑於日前發生民進黨籍立法委員郭國文在議場內公然以暴力搶奪議事人員之文件，造成議事人員摔倒之情形，爰提案立法院院會未來開會時，不得再攻擊議事人員。這個也很重要！舉手表決要不要做很重要，但這個也很重要，不要隨便亂打議事人員，這樣子不好！壞習慣！","第二個提案，鑑於日前發生民進黨籍立委鍾佳濱爬上主席台對國民黨立委陳菁徽施以兩次衝撞暴行，有不當接觸，造成女性立委身心受創，心生恐懼。爰提案立法院院會未來議事時，不得衝上主席台用暴力行為來延宕議事，並要求民進黨立委鍾佳濱公開向陳菁徽委員道歉。民進黨向來關心女權、向來關心性平、向來關心性騷，如果我們在這邊能表決這件事，我覺得也非常有意義。不只是舉手投票，不要性騷擾也很重要！","第三個，有鑑於日前發生民進黨立委在議場以鎖門、身體擒抱方式限制立法院長人身自由，不僅造成議事延宕，而且有性騷擾之虞。爰提案立法院院會開會之時，不得以任何方式來限制立法院院長的人身自由。所以基本上，我希望大家能夠尊重院長，舉手投票很重要，要不要討論很重要，但是不要一直杯葛、騷擾我們的立法院院長韓國瑜，我想這個也是非常重要。","另外，我們的國民禮儀條款今天最好也討論一下，為什麼？從小到大大家知道，進場要排隊，如果想要第一個進場的話就早點排隊，演唱會什麼的都是這樣做，小時候讀書排圖書館也是這樣做。國民黨排隊排了四十八小時，結果民進黨竟然在開場前十分鐘，好兇！插隊！一路打記者！打議事人員！打警察！打立委！一路打進立法院！這麼雄壯威武的事情，在司法及法制委員會難道不會比舉手投票要不要舉行重要嗎？雖然今天鍾佳濱主席不表決這幾項，但是沒關係，我建議、我口頭告訴大家：不要插隊，民進黨！不要插隊，民進黨！不要插隊，民進黨！這很重要，所以要說三次。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。接下來請謝委員龍介發言。"],["謝委員龍介：自古以來做賊心虛，不要白布硬是要染黑！現場抽表決卡，徐欣瑩搶回來，結果你們說徐欣瑩搶你們的表決卡？所有國民黨的表決卡都被你們拿走！舉手表決，國會要尊重傳統，去看看英國國會是怎樣做的？不用廢除啦，廢除什麼？本來就有很多種表決方式，不要白布硬是要染黑，作賊喊捉賊、打人喊救人，這都無法教導後代子孫。","今天舉手表決，這叫做傳統，傳統跟創新要並顧，臺灣號稱科技之島，AI領先全世界，一個國會表決，秘書長，這個你就要注意聽了，我們有新的工具、新的科技，要表決也好，有哪一條法律規定表決要坐在你的位子上？沒有！只要在議場裡面即可，所以我建議秘書長，趕快請我們臺灣這些AI科技大廠，針對立法院來做一個設計，每一位立委只要簽到之後就發一條手環，這個手環就是我們臺灣的科技，我站在哪裡都可以表決，yes、no我都可以按，我按廢票也可以，而且這條AI是屬於你個人的，你要舉手也好，你要用按的也好，老百姓不管你們這些立法委員挖鼻孔挖到流鼻血也沒關係，誰要管你們？但是表決只要有一個手環，我要站著表決、我要坐著表決，我在哪裡我都可以按，只要沒有離開議場，離開議場的話，你的手環就會感應不到，這麼簡單。就只會在那裡要廢除這一條，也要廢除那一條，「胡蠅舞屎桮」，在那裡舞弄什麼？糞坑越攪越臭，不要這樣啦！有風度一點啦！人多的話，少數尊重多數、少數服從多數，多數會疼惜少數，國會不要再吵下去了，受傷了你有看到了嗎？我只是沒有喊出來而已，鍾佳濱的身體很好，他每天都在練，muscle那麼多，像一頭牛一樣，那是真的有夠有力，改天請高抬貴手啦！主席！"],["主席：謝謝謝委員的建議、構想，接下來請黃委員國昌發言。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。針對民主進步黨立委所提出來的這個臨時提案，要求立法院院會未來討論法律案、預算案和條約案時，應採用記名的方式表決，不得以舉手表決為之。針對這項臨時提案……"],["主席：拿錯版本。"],["黃委員國昌：不是這個版本？請問是哪個版本？可以發給大家嗎？"],["主席：有發了，抱歉。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個版本是什麼時候抽換的？"],["主席：剛剛在同一時間、11點半前……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是11點半的時候？"],["主席：之前。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以你們要依照立法院職權行使法、議事規則，以具「具名表決」效力的表決方式進行表決，然後維護未來有憲政爭議的時候，然後以保障什麼途徑，針對這個提案的內容，等一下是不是可以請立法院秘書長周萬來表示一下意見？因為對於立法院議事規則第三十五條所承認合法表決的方式，可不可以透過臨時提案的方式予以變更？這是法制上的重大作業，如果今天透過臨時提案的方式就可以變更立法院議事規則的話，那以後關於立法院議事規則的審議程序是不是就被空洞化掉了？是不是就被空洞化掉了？我覺得這個是最關鍵的核心問題。","第二個，我必須要說明的是，為什麼會被逼到用舉手表決？今天如果沒有人要攻擊主席臺，妨礙議事的正常運作，如果今天沒有人要破壞表決器，甚至把其他委員的表決卡抽走，破壞整個表決器表決的方式，哪一個立法委員不希望坐在自己的位置上，好好地進行表決器表決？你不能夠說一方面我想要去干擾議事的進行，我要攻占主席臺，我要讓院長、讓主席沒有辦法主持會議，另外一方面要求別人，你如果想投票，你要乖乖的坐在位置上，天底下沒有這種道理！議事規則不是為民主進步黨而創設的，議事規則也不是民主進步黨想幹嘛就幹嘛，以上。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，剛剛黃委員又重新把一些提案內容念一遍，謝謝黃委員提醒，剛剛在宣讀的時候，我先說明一下，第五行「以具記名表決」，「具」應該是別字，「具記名表決效力」不是「具具名表決效力」，這邊做一個修正。因為剛剛有翁委員登記發言，還有吳思瑤委員登記發言，是不是我們請要發言的委員先表示一下？我依序讓大家發言。接下來請翁委員曉玲發言。還有其他委員要發言的話，請舉手，至於黃委員說要請周秘書長的部分，在兩位委員發言後，再請他來表示意見。來，請。"],["翁委員曉玲：我看到今天主席的臨時提案，真的讓我覺得不可思議，會要討論有關於記名表決的這個方式，基本上，我認為它有兩個大問題，第一個，就像剛剛前面黃國昌委員所說的，一個委員會議的決議就可以去推翻立法院議事規則嗎？立法院議事規則第三十五條規定得非常清楚，議案表決的方式總共有5種：口頭表決、舉手表決、表決器表決、投票表決以及點名表決，舉手表決就是一個合法的表決方式，不要以文害意，投票是一定要有那個票嗎？我們舉手，它就是一個最古老、最傳統、最公開、直接、透明的一個表達每個委員個人自己意見、立場的方式，舉手表決，就像我們講的，這是一個最直接、民主的方式，後來因為有現代科技的發展，然後讓大家委員們可以輕鬆一點，坐在委員位置上面按表決器來表決，這有什麼不對？","我要再說，今天之前吳思瑤委員在那裡講什麼拿表決卡的事情，剛剛楊瓊瓔委員播的那段影片，就是我本人用手機當場錄下的，我在第一時間看到民進黨的幾位女立委，直接從我的面前拿走我同伴、我的委員同志的表決卡，簡直是不可思議！他們怎麼可能會有這樣的一個行為？他們有尊重別的委員的職權行使嗎？他們有尊重議事人員已經把所有的卡都插在上面，他們可以這麼做嗎？我必須說，民進黨的立法院黨團，我認為以後可以有另外一個暱名叫做強盜黨團，他們既搶周萬來秘書長的資料文件，也搶我們其他委員的表決卡，嚴重破壞民主程序、議事程序，不要惡人先告狀！","我們在講民主，要看一個國家的民主素養，就看這個國家的立法委員的行為表現，我們一直在說君子動口不動手，可是我們看到立法院民進黨委員的所作所為都是先動手，他們什麼時候變成了拳腳政府、拳腳黨團？我在這裡真的感到非常遺憾，之後我們立法院可能還必須更嚴格的修改我們的立法院議事規則，要嚴禁這種拿別人的、搶奪、強盜別人表決卡的行為。"],["主席：好，在吳思瑤委員發言後，我們請周秘書長答復，再請莊瑞雄委員繼續發言。你先？對不起，在周秘書長答復之後請傅委員，再來是莊委員。","請吳思瑤委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席、各位同仁。我難得非常同意剛剛幾位委員的論述，但是就更好，我們可以好好來看看誰是今天說一套，然後平時又做另外一套。剛剛兩位法學博士──黃國昌跟翁曉玲，都提到依據立法院議事規則，可以用一個委員會的決議來超越議事規則嗎？這個問題很好！那你們先去問一問，可以用修法來超越憲法嗎？你們現在所推動的立法院職權行使法，沒有關係！黃國昌，你繼續你的訕笑，沒有問題，就繼續離場，不要落跑，回來聽我講啊！法學博士只會落跑，翁曉玲也不要跑啊！我會講到你啊！所以，現在國民黨、民眾黨所提的國會擴權法案，就是用法律來超越憲法，不是嗎？剛剛黃國昌說，不要讓法制空洞化，那麼你們的作為不是讓憲法空洞化嗎？","第二個，羅智強委員說，因為他們沒有跟上今天主席宣告多次11點半登記臨時提案的時間，所以他們的4個案子沒有辦法在今天併案審查，我們覺得尊重下一次，還有下一次的委員會，其實羅委員的幾個提案都可以在下一次委員會再透過臨時提案提出，這個程序上是沒有問題的。但如果羅委員這麼重視他的案子沒有被併案的話，那麼羅委員應當將心比心，現在的國會擴權法案，國民黨只審國民黨、民眾黨的版本，民進黨的國會真改革的4個法案完全沒有辦法被併案審查，完全沒有辦法被併案協商。所以就併案論併案，國民黨想要併案的時候就要併案，然後不想讓民進黨的版本一起來審查的時候就拒絕併案，這是什麼樣的邏輯跟道理？","好，講到我們鍾佳濱召委，如果那天在肢體推擠當中，對於其他委員有產生肢體上的衝撞，鍾委員已經親自多次道歉，而且清楚說明，絕非故意！如果國民黨這麼重視國會反性騷，那為什麼不讓民進黨的#MeToo條款，立法院委員行為法能夠併案審查，能夠一起在我們的議事審議程序當中來落實國會的改革，真正的從制度面來反性騷呢？國民黨為什麼不審民進黨的反性騷條款呢？又說到有沒有人偷卡，翁曉玲委員走了，我實在很想說給他聽，剛剛就在今天早上國民黨團的記者會，翁曉玲委員自己說漏嘴，他那天偷了民進黨兩個委員的卡，翁曉玲委員今天早上在國民黨的記者會，所有的發言都被拍下來記錄了，誰偷卡？翁曉玲委員自己說，他偷了民進黨或是抽了民進黨兩位委員的表決卡。","最後回到這個提案的主題，我們反對舉手表決，我們要求記名表決，不是為了議事方便不方便、技術如何如何，而是為了每一個議案，國會議員要對歷史負責，如果不採取表決器表決卡按鈕表決，歷史上誰能夠去記載誰支持了國會的擴權？誰支持了對人民查水表的條款？誰支持了這種無限上綱的藐視國會罪？透過記名表決是對歷史負責。羅智強委員，您回來了喔！你剛剛講到演唱會，我非常喜歡演唱會，你知道嗎？在場外抗議的年輕人，他們拿著海報說，現在連演唱會購票都要實名制了，立法院表決居然不用記名投票，講演唱會，就講演唱會，現在連演唱會都要推實名制了。"],["主席：請發言委員注意時間。"],["吳委員思瑤：為什麼立法院的委員表決不敢記名投票？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我剛剛質詢的時候跟私下時間有問了周萬來秘書長，表決卡有沒有備卡？有沒有空卡？秘書長說是有的，既然有備卡、有空卡……"],["主席：待會兒我們再請秘書長……"],["吳委員思瑤：如果有任何表決卡發生遺失的狀況，難道不能趕快來做處理嗎？"],["主席：我們待會兒請周秘書長回復。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝龍介委員說臺灣是科技之島，對啊！臺灣是科技之島啊！所以立法院的表決卡，難道因為有所遺失就不能夠有備卡跟空卡嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是什麼科技？"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。待會兒請周秘書長答復。","先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行至臨時提案處理完畢，所有登記發言委員詢答結束，並將報告事項所列預算解凍書面報告案處理完畢，及討論事項法案條文宣讀完畢為止。","應委員要求，接著請周秘書長回應，因為好幾位都有提到，時間3分鐘。"],["周秘書長萬來：主席、各位委員。修正版本我是看過了，但一般來講就是議事規則裡面的這五款，第三十五條第一款跟第四款是由主席決定宣告，以現行的規則這是主席的權力，這是以目前來講。至於第五款裡面的點名表決才會由委員提出來，然後再由主席進行表決，目前是這樣啦！修正版本要不要這樣去處理，我個人並沒有表示意見，是由大家委員去合議。","至於剛才郭委員有提到將來的憲法訴訟法裡面四分之一的問題，我想司法院大概會從第四十九條去看，我就不再說明，因為這跟我們沒有很大關聯性。","至於卡的問題，當然我們會有備卡，我們會有備卡，不可能是沒有備卡，不過當時的情況是已經被抽了，有上簽呈給我看過，因為這是內部的公文，我不會說明。當時的情況就以主席本身對這四款有權力自己就決定宣告舉手表決，這是一個補充，請各位瞭解，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來有登記的是傅總召發言，請。"],["傅委員崐萁：今天我想我們討論這個議題非常有意思，周萬來周秘書長，我想比較重要在這裡，未來相關委員所提出來的建議，我想都可以討論。剛剛謝龍介謝委員所提出的，本席覺得，真的立法要與時俱進，因為現在在立法院裡面的各種行為──偷、拐、矇、騙，樣樣都有！但是表決是非常神聖的事情，今天鍾佳濱召委也提出了這個問題，我們在這裡正式討論，我想這也是好事啦！既然要討論的話，未來有什麼樣一次解決的方式？其實早就應該進行了。所以到底進了立法院以後，是不是人人手上就有一份屬於自己各個委員在行使自己職權該有的一些科技裝備？我想早就應該跟上時代了。","不過，在這裡對於表決方式，是不是韓院長可以來主持、來決定，事實上議事規則裡面寫得非常清楚，本來舉手表決就可以由院長直接裁示。","對於外面講到很多各種不同的說法，我們還是要在這裡澄清，在國會有一就一、有二就二，雖然各種謠言滿天，抹黑、各種假消息、假訊息，不斷地在散播，但是我們要清楚的表達，立法院各個委員會到今天為止，甚至待會兒鍾佳濱召委所提出的臨時提案都是大家舉手表決，這裡也沒有辦法插卡表決，也沒有辦法做其他的表決，最常用的就是舉手表決，從有立法院到今天為止都在舉手表決，走到國外有800年民主歷史的英國，英國國會到現在都是舉手表決，更重要的是，全世界共同聯合在一起的聯合國也是舉手表決。","剛剛特別強調一個重點，因為韓院長還是有他的苦衷，本席要在這裡清楚地再次表達，為什麼非要用舉手表決？第一個，禮拜五院會的時候，民進黨立委當場竊取國民黨立委的表決卡，竊取之後又指責翁曉玲委員，說他有去抽兩張民進黨的卡，事實上翁曉玲委員抽的卡有交給議事人員，是交給議事人員！而民進黨抽的卡、幾位委員竊取國民黨的表決卡，是把它藏起來，讓議事人員找不到這些卡，所以當天是有發生竊盜的行為，而且並沒有交給議事人員，才讓院長決定要來用舉手表決。","更重要的事情是，不管是在禮拜二的協商當中，還是原本今天下午要進行的協商當中，希望柯建銘柯總召本諸國會議事和諧、遵守議事規則、立法委員的行為要可受公評，希望大家能夠支持接受民進黨所提出的要求用表決器表決，就是大家都坐在位子上表決，本席也欣然同意，但是要請柯建銘柯總召簽字具結，大家一致同意坐在位子上表決，不得侵占主席台，不讓韓國瑜院長主持會議，但是很抱歉，柯建銘柯總召悍然拒絕簽署這樣的一個朝野協商決議，讓大家沒有辦法坐在位子上表決，也沒有辦法用插卡表決。我們把事實還原真相。","但我還是很謝謝鍾佳濱鍾召委，可能未來是民進黨的鍾總召，最近表現得非常大，今天也提出這個臨時提案，本席是很高興啦！因為畢竟這個提案今天在這裡還是要做舉手表決，然後做一個決定。未來如果在委員會提的臨時提案可以改變議事規則的話，本席也欣然接受啦！這樣以後我們都在委員會來做決定也可以，少數服從多數，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝傅總召。說明一下，在委員會的會議我們還是根據立法院議事規則第三十五條、第三十六條，依照這五種表決方式行之。再次說明。","接下來是由莊委員瑞雄進行發言。請！時間3分鐘。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委。我看傅崐萁坐在那邊，都不想走他那邊，我要過來這邊！","其實在場所有委員，還有在場媒體朋友和這麼多列席官員，雖然主席宣告3分鐘，但是看一下就知道都是參考用的，很難去遵循。有時候真的是議題還沒有講完，遇到話多的人，他就一直說，這也都合理！","聽了剛剛幾個國民黨委員的講法，我有一點感慨，立法院只要早上還沒有進到議場的時候，每一個人都是正常的人，進到議場、簽到以後，立法院就瘋子一堆，話都亂說！比如說剛剛我們羅智強委員，我看他語意裡面就贊成鍾佳濱這個提案，只是說想多加入他幾個提案，這個都是好事。但是聽完以後，其實大家今天幾乎都是在講口水，比如說大家談到到底誰偷立法院的表決卡，不管哪一個政黨的委員去拿到那個表決卡，我也不認為是偷啦！在場有吳宗憲委員，還有這麼多法制人員，竊盜要去看第三百二十條的規定：竊取他人之物、他人之動產。在我看來那個都不是竊取，其實吳宗憲委員很清楚，這個都是議事攻防，只是到底要不要約束、做得有沒有超過？","黃捷委員拿了那個表決卡以後是交給議事人員耶！"],["翁委員曉玲：哪有？沒有！"],["莊委員瑞雄：有啦！你去看一下影片，那個影片都有看到。不要每一個人都去擷取片段到這個地方。像謝龍介，我也覺得他的提案很好啊！雖然謝龍介來到立法院以後都胡說八道，但是我覺得聽得很爽啊！我也覺得聽得很爽啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，他有還給人家嗎？什麼時候還的？"],["莊委員瑞雄：尊重我一下！尊重我一下！"],["主席：時間暫停。委員，我們是不是讓莊委員講完再……","來，莊委員請繼續。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在謝龍介站在我旁邊，你看這個鏡頭多好你知道嗎？這個畫面一般人會認為他是不是具有攻擊性？不會啊！","我看謝委員臉臭臭的，我在講話你也笑一下啊！"],["謝委員龍介：你要給我捧場嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在就是要給你捧場啊！","他剛剛有一個提案我倒是覺得非常好，大家考慮一下。他說臺灣是一個高科技之島，掛個手鍊就好。那個是要感應到的。可是你只說表決而已，我覺得不夠。你這個臺南的，腦袋瓜總是稍微有點不清楚，我屏東的就很清楚，因為我比較遠……"],["謝委員龍介：臺南的民進黨委員有6個喔！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你聽我說，我是說你這個提案不夠清楚啦！我這個屏東的就會覺得那個距離要再拉長，你剛剛提案說高科技，弄個可以感應的就可以表決了，你乾脆就連簽名也可以！只要感應到就算簽名了，就不用每天在那邊搭高鐵。"],["謝委員龍介：可以做得到啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你有贊成我就對了！"],["謝委員龍介：在院區裡面才感應得到啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你講，這樣我們兩個都瘋了，你知道嗎？","我要講的就是，立法院就成天在練這些「痟話」啦！全都是口水啦！","鍾委員的提案我倒是覺得重要的意義在什麼地方──在立法院議事規則第三十五條第一項裡面，其實我們的表決有兩種，以抽象來看真的是只有兩種，一種叫做記名，一種叫做不記名，不記名的話，口頭表決當然是不記名，不記名投票當然也是不記名，用表決器就是一種記名，點名表決也是一種記名，記名投票也是一種記名。那就怪了！就是舉手表決要怎麼去定義它的問題啦！各位偉大的政治家，其實都可以討論啦！","但是相互攻防，輸的那方不要比較好啦！當人家在說你們陳雪生的時候，我也覺得那哪有可能，眾目睽睽之下，我也覺得比較不愛講人家私人的事情。鍾佳濱委員那天那個議事攻防裡面，國民黨已經講他幾次說什麼他性騷。我們議場所有媒體都在那裡耶！你們明明看到他是要爬上去，被推下來，因為有紙在那裡，他往前倒，衝過去抱到陳委員嘛！那個怎麼會是性騷嘛！就是睜著眼睛說瞎話嘛！當事人當然會不舒服，鍾佳濱委員也去道歉了，你們還糾結在這裡！這個就是離開議場以後要放下啦！那樣不好啦！亂成這樣！你們在課堂裡面，大家是當老師的，難道這個議事攻防學生看到以後會跟你說「老師這樣好棒棒」嗎？有必要嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：老師會質疑……"],["莊委員瑞雄：有必要嗎？有必要嗎？","大家來到立法院都張牙舞爪，是誰比誰來得凶？不用這樣嘛！哪有誰比誰凶！有啊！你們每個人都背負著民意到這邊來，問題是進來以後都走了樣啊！","立法院我覺得真正有必要修的大家可以建議一下，憲法規定的立法委員言論免責權，時代不一樣了，這一條把它修掉啦！這一條修掉就好玩了，立法院就不會再這樣胡說八道了。你看，傅崐萁也幫我按讚！"],["傅委員崐萁：請你提案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很好啊！我們共提！","幫我按讚就要共提，可以喔？這樣大家進來以後就不會胡說八道了嘛！對不對？大家都在胡說八道，實在是！這樣延宕了一整天，結果大家薪水照領！感慨啦！"],["主席：謝謝。還有沒有委員要表示意見？這樣子啦！在場委員，我大概說明一下，這個提案我聽了各位委員的意見，因為我身為提案人，我跟大家說明，這裡面還是有一些要補充的，就是為確保立法院的議事公正，我想議事公正還是要寫上去，在各種會議議決，因為我們是委員會，我再講一次，「為確保立法院之議事公正，在各種委員會議決法律案、預算案等具法律位階法規範之議案時」，我想這裡說明，因為我們是委員會，那委員會做的決議，我們只是各種會議之中的一種，所以這樣的一個臨時提案如果通過了，它是為了確保立法院之議事公正，那麼在議決，有限定喔！法律案、預算案，這些具有法律位階的法規範，只有這些案子在議決的時候，我們才是根據立法院職權行使法第六條，完全沒有去超越，還是照第六條，就是以過半數同意為之。","那議事規則第三十五條、第三十六條，它分別規定了可決的額數和表決的方式，那表決的方式誠如各位委員所指教的，一共有五種，那這五種根據第三十五條規定，就是第一、口頭表決；第二、舉手表決；第三、表決器表決；第四、投票表決；第五、點名表決。本委員會過去因為沒有表決器，我們也沒有用口頭表決，我們都是用舉手表決的方式，在吳召委的時候，也曾經通過用點名表決，那舉手表決跟點名表決的差別在於說，點名表決可以確認，具有記名的效果，因為這些預算案、法律案或者條約案在未來如果有合憲爭議的時候，根據憲法訴訟法，我們必須要能夠確定是誰投了贊成還是反對，所以我這邊再強調一次，我們只是為了確保立法院之議事公正，我們在各種委員會包括本委員會，我們當然這裡只能就本委員會在議決法律案和預算案等這些議案的時候，要依據第六條、第三十五條、第三十六條，以具記名表決效力的表決方式為之，這個是確保我們議事人員在登記這次的議決過程，每一位行使表決權的委員，他是贊成、反對，以記名的方式能夠被呈現出來，未來萬一有合憲爭議的時候，我們在處理的時候才能確保每位委員的情況，以上說明。","委員還有要發言的嗎？來，請黃委員，請。"],["黃委員國昌：我不是要發言，我只是要進行一個簡單的會議詢問，這個會議詢問的內容是針對目前所提出來的臨時提案，我們是不是能夠按照以前處理臨時提案的方式，針對臨時提案內容的變更提出修正的建議？"],["主席：目前就在進行啊！我剛剛的發言是要請大家來表示意見。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。那我現在是可以正式的針對這一個臨時提案內容文字的變更提出文字修正建議嗎？"],["主席：請提出，我們等你提。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["主席：委員，在這段時間，有沒有……謝謝，那是不是印給大家？"],["黃委員國昌：我先簽完。"],["主席：變更不用簽名，因為修正給大家看就可以了。我看一下，我再唸一遍「為確保立法院之議事公正，在各種會議議決法律案、預算案等具法律位階法規範之議案時，必須依立法院職權行使法第六條、立法院議事規則第三十五條、第三十六條及其他相關規定，以具記名表決效力之表決方式進行表決，俾維護未來若有合憲性爭議時，本院委員依憲法訴訟法提出釋憲之申請要件，以保障本院憲政爭議的合憲解決途徑。且為確保會議進行之合法性及合憲性，各黨團應切結不得以攻佔主席台，阻礙院長或副院長主持會議，或強行抽走表決卡之方式，破壞會議之合法合憲進行。」"],["吳委員思瑤：修正文字要印給大家。"],["主席：我們請印給大家，我唸過了，請印給大家。那在印給大家的過程我說明一下，我強調一次，這個內容請各位委員瞭解，因為我們只是司法委員會的一分子，那我們所做的，雖然上面講到了各種會議，但是因為本委員會是屬於院會授權做審查的一個單元，所以基本上我們的決定是以我們委員會來遵循，所以這一點我跟黃委員說明，因為我們做成決議是本委員會，我們不可能……如果說我們要做成決議跟院會建議，那我是建請黃委員是不是另外寫一個跟院會的建議案，我們再來處理。因為我剛剛所講的，純粹是就各種會議當中，為了確保我們的議事公正性，在處理相關法律案或預算案的時候，我們要有一個記名表決效力的表決方式，大概這樣的說明，請黃委員鑒察。"],["黃委員國昌：我同意要確保整個會議的合法性跟合憲性，以及事後的司法審查，因為司法審查的範圍，包括會議進行當中是不是有符合相關的規範，會不會破壞憲政民主的秩序，這個是憲法法庭在針對國會自律事項，在進行合憲性審查的時候，所必要審查的要素，那也就是因為這個樣子，為了要確保本院在議事進行當中所為的表決具有合法性，也可以通過憲法法庭未來合憲性的審查，那顯然我們要關注的事項就不僅僅是到底是不是用記名還是哪一種特定的表決方式，我們必須要關注的事項還有這個會議是不是合法合憲的進行，如果會議要能夠合法合憲進行的話，不要攻佔主席台，阻礙院長或副院長主持議事程序，不要去偷抽其他立法委員的表決卡，導致其他立法委員在行使憲法所賦予的職權的時候，遭到外力不當的阻礙，這個都攸關於立法院所為的立法行為，在憲法法庭是不是能夠判定這一個會議通過合憲性審查的必要要件。","因此，我們針對剛剛鍾佳濱委員所提出來那樣子的一個臨時提案，在後面更完整的就要確保合法合憲性提出修正的文字，我們認為並無不妥，至於說到底是妥還是不妥這件事情，我覺得應該是交由司法及法制委員會現在已經出席的委員來共同決定，而不是主席一個人的裁示，以上。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的會議詢問。在吳委員發言之前，我大概做一個建議請各位參考。因為我強調的是我們是在本委員會，是不是後面加的「為確保會議進行之合法性及合憲性……」是不是要各黨團切結，這個尊重大家……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，等一下，我有不同意見耶！"],["主席：我先把……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有、沒有，我針對這個提案這樣……"],["主席：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，因為臨時提案一的提案是在講記名表決的方式，但是剛剛黃國昌委員他試圖要用修正的文字，去處理另外兩個前提不一樣的東西，如果黃國昌委員要再提下面這個部分，他應該是另外再提一個臨時提案，而且要循你剛剛宣告的那個提案時間，因為黃委員後面加的這一大段，跟你前面在講記名表決有什麼直接的關聯？所以現在他們用不同的修正文字，其實就是在……那就另外提一個新的臨時提案啊！循臨時提案的程序啊！不然這樣沒完沒了啊！我一看就覺得這根本是在你原始提案的後面加一大堆，而且跟你原本的提案有什麼直接的關聯，你的很簡單，你就講表決方式而已，後面的卻扯到要不要攻占主席臺、要不要怎樣、有沒有人抽走表決卡，我都同意不攻占主席臺，我絕對同意啊！但是是誰去攻占主席臺？誰昨天半夜又開始去那邊排隊了，對不對？然後黃委員說，不可以去抽走表決卡。我也絕對同意啊！我們就是討厭別人抽走表決卡，現在是國民黨抽走別人的表決卡啊！我都同意這兩個，那你就去弄另外的臨時提案，看是一個案或兩個案啊……"],["主席：謝謝吳委員……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為這完全把你的本質都改掉了耶！你的提案很簡單，是在講表決方式，後面的居然是什麼攻占主席臺，全部要和在同一個提案，另外循程序提新的臨時提案，這樣才對！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。我現在正要說明，因為後面的文字內容有跟本委員會有間的部分，第一個是攻占主席臺，其實我們過去在委員會有發生的是占據主席臺，就是這個地方，然後妨礙院長、副院長的部分，因為我們在委員會，院長、副院長主持的會議大概不是指本委員會的會議，表決卡也不在本委員會的使用範疇，所以是不是黃委員考慮一下這個內容文字上？我們現在講的是各種會議，這當然以本委員會來談處理重要議案的表決方式，還是依照我們現有的議事規則及職權行使法的方式為之。這是一點意見，您可以參考，因為我們這裡沒有表決卡，我們這裡也沒有院長、副院長，我們也沒有什麼攻占主席臺，過去只有主席主持的時候，大家在主席臺前情況比較混亂而已。","委員是不是還要針對剛剛的文字修正部分提出意見？先請羅委員，再來翁委員。"],["羅委員智強：我也要提文字修正，我覺得我們鍾佳濱委員很認真、用心，他說要用具名表決，我覺得非常好，但是考量我們的議事順暢，我覺得應該要有一個前提設定，所以我建議在第2行「具法律位階規範之議案時」的「時」前面加上一段文字，「在沒有立法委員或任何人為干擾癱瘓議事欲占據主席臺，以及偷竊、強盜其他立委表決卡，以致無法進行投票器表決，主席必須以舉手投票維持議事情況時」，你就可以接上後面的「具名表決」，因為事實上我們必須考量所有的情況，具名表決很好，非常棒啊！只要沒有什麼無賴政黨想要去攻占主席臺癱瘓議事，或者是去搶人家的表決卡，這種情況之下，當然大大方方，任何表決方式我都同意啊！可是如果這兩件事情發生，你已經沒有辦法進行表決了，當然按照議事規則，用舉手表決，我覺得是很好的方式，所以為周延起見，要讓這個提案更具憲政與立法高度的意義，我建議把以上的文字加上去，謝謝。"],["主席：這樣好不好？因為剛剛有遞了一個文字修正，是不是我們休息幾分鐘，讓議事人繕寫清楚，我們才有辦法處理，好不好？我們先休息2分鐘，之後再請翁委員發言，我們把文字謄清楚，大家才有辦法處理，因為這樣文字不清楚，接下來不知道怎麼討論？先讓大家休息一下，休息2分鐘。","休息（12時28分）","繼續開會（12時30分）"],["主席：繼續開會。由於登記發言委員還有包括黃委員及葉委員，還有報告事項的解凍案，還有法案條文的宣讀，所以這一案就暫不處理。","接下來有請黃國昌委員發言。"],["羅委員智強：主席，這樣不對吧！你提了臨時提案，自己又不處理自己的臨時提案，不好啦！表決一下，馬上就結束，不用3分鐘。這樣就收回去，不好啦！"],["主席：可以、可以，我們上次也這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：主席，上次收回去不好看，你已經提案啦！"],["黃委員國昌：今天不再處理？"],["主席：今天不再處理。"],["黃委員國昌：今天不再處理。"],["主席：今天不再處理。"],["黃委員國昌：你就確保……"],["主席：不會啦！不會啦！今天不再處理。","黃委員，你要發言。接下來請黃委員國昌發言。"],["羅委員智強：我們大家在這邊要等表決，不給我們表決，真的是，這麼好的提案，我都支持。"],["吳委員宗憲：每次都反對你自己的提案，莫名其妙！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！每次都反對自己的提案，我不能理解啊！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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11:37:44","影片長度":"00:12:19","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":739,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:37:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:25:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時25分）麻煩請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。第一次見面，但是我從媒體有看到一些有關你的報導，個人非常的敬佩，像今天有媒體報導你說無意讓大陸科技持續落後，也不會介入中美的競逐，然後呼籲對方放棄敵意嘛，這是報紙報導，應該沒有錯嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你非常好，我們沒有意識形態，完全站在產業跟科技角度，但是我非常擔心你這樣的發言，在民進黨政府我不知道能不能被接受啦！因為我印象在2019年的時候，民進黨的立委也在我們的委員會，范雲女士就曾經公開的抹紅你，說你當時在清大，好像曾經有參加過一些兩岸交流的學術活動，說你們清大已經被中共控制了，當時我們有國民黨委員質詢蘇貞昌院長怎麼可以這樣抹紅呢？結果蘇貞昌院長說：沒有抹紅，他就是紅！甚至於講陸方的分支就是不能夠在清大設置，當時我看到這個新聞為你抱屈，今天很難得來到這邊可以跟你對話，可不可以幫我們陳述一下，當時你被抹紅的時候，明明是站在產業、站在學術角度，但是動不動被扣帽子，變成中共的在臺代理人，這樣的心情、心路歷程是怎樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當時我是擔任清華大學副校長，是馬英九總統任內鼓勵兩岸的交流……"],["葉委員元之：那時候是2015年嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：2015……"],["葉委員元之：還是2015、2016嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：差不多。"],["葉委員元之：你們有兩件事情被罵啦，一件事情是2015你去參加一個揭牌，一個清華學術中心的揭牌……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：還有一個是2019年，當時是對岸的清華大學副校長來訪，所以清大校長去接待嘛，然後就說清大被滲透了，當時有沒有在學校看到很多匪諜，有沒有舉報？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個跟我無關啦，我不知道有沒有，我其實……"],["葉委員元之：民進黨講有就有啊，黨說有就有啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當時當副校長是奉命接待，那時候校長另有其他的事情不在。"],["葉委員元之：那時候心路歷程是怎樣，被抹紅的心路歷程是怎樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然是非常委屈，我本人一切是以臺灣為優先……"],["葉委員元之：臺灣優先嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我關心我們的社會，關心我們國家的發展，所以我生涯裡面所有的工作，不管是在學術界還是在工研院服務，或擔任校長等等，我從來就不會以政治意識為考量，我會以國家本土的發展為優先的考量。"],["葉委員元之：其實大家都是啦！但是有些人就很喜歡抹紅別人，扣人家帽子啦！當時罵你最兇就是范雲女士，也是我們教育文化委員會的委員，我是不知道他質詢過了沒？還沒。你有沒有什麼話要跟他講嗎？說委員你誤會我了啦，我這一生以臺灣為優先，不要動不動扣帽子，你會這樣子跟他講嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我想委員應該最後還是會明瞭我的心意啦，我是為臺灣。"],["葉委員元之：他很難瞭解別人心意，真的，一個有色眼鏡戴久的人很難瞭解別人心意啦！很會吃女權自助餐，要攻擊別人的時候就搬女權，然後要袒護自己人的時候就看不到，所以當時你就是他攻擊的目標，他很難看到啦，我建議你還是要跟他講一下，因為現在你的位置特別重要，到時候不要國科會推動一些兩岸交流相關事物，尤其是你在報紙上也講了嘛，你說無意讓大陸科技持續落後，不會介入中美競逐，等一下可能又被罵了！我認為你在第一時間要講清楚好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：我們都是為臺灣！"],["吳主任委員誠文：為臺灣！"],["葉委員元之：為臺灣，正常的交流不要抹紅，對吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。身為政務官，我遵照賴總統的指示，我們要建造一個和平、穩定、繁榮的臺灣，健康的臺灣，讓臺灣在全世界，也協助全世界能夠和平、穩定、繁榮。"],["葉委員元之：對，太好了，我絕對是支持你，因為我們都跟你一樣，常常被抹紅。像最近在國會討論國會改革法，也要被講成是幫習近平投票，這種荒謬的、抹紅的句都講得出來，我們跟你一樣都是天涯淪落人，所以全力的支持你。","接下來我想問一下產業的問題，因為最近的一個財經新聞在國際的媒體上面被廣泛的討論，因為大家延續兩岸的話題，大家擔心兩岸未來會不會有一些國安的問題─開戰嘛！美國路透社有個報導，說荷蘭的ASML一個光刻機的廠商，它說可以跟我們台積電在遠端，只要臺灣遇到一些國安問題，可以在遠端關閉台積電的一些設備，不知道你有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，有看到新聞。"],["葉委員元之：因為當時這個新聞出來之後，大家覺得那麼厲害喔！原來可以做到這樣的技術，到時候就算開戰，好像台積電也不太容易就淪落到他人之手嘛，所以大家很關注啦！因為後來媒體報導之後，很多專家就禁口了，就不講這個事情了，我想請教一下主委，你對這個事情的瞭解是怎樣，有可能在技術上做得到嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：以現在在半導體產業智慧製造的技術是可以做得到。"],["葉委員元之：是可以做得到？所以他們是有能力遠端關閉全球最先進的晶片製造設備EUV，是可以的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：技術上是可以的。"],["葉委員元之：技術上可以的，所以這個新聞沒有錯嘛，你證實有這樣的一個技術嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：技術是可以的。"],["葉委員元之：我們國科會針對這方面的技術有任何的，比如說鼓勵研發或增加相關的能量，有嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個本身是智慧製造的技術，我們各行各業、各種設備只要能夠連上網路就可以利用智慧製造的技術監控遠方設備，包含停機這個事情。"],["葉委員元之：再來，這是我個人接受到的一個陳情，因為主委剛上任，其實這個議題我關心很久了，上一任主委本來在我質詢的時候有答應我要提出一個解決方案，不過每次都是這樣，在委員會講的、官員承諾的到最後都沒有，要求給報告，給的報告也就是講一些無關痛癢的背景，從來不針對問題。所以我利用這個機會再跟主委講一下，也希望主委真的能夠解決這個問題。","這個問題是，去年開始國科會有一個博士生研究獎學金試辦方案，去年9月的時候開了一個記者會，隔1個月立刻就收件，就是收件1個月的時間，這個獎學金主要是要補助新入學的博士生，但它裡面有幾個問題發生，第一個問題是，因為它是在1月多的時候公布得到獎學金的名單，9月收件、隔1個月收件，隔年1月公布，導致很多1月之後才決定要讀博士班的學生沒有辦法去申請這個獎學金，他們就成為漏網之魚；第二個，我覺得這個宣傳完全不足，當時我問了很多學校的學生跟學校的老師，還有一些本來想要讀博士班的學生，他們通通都不知道這個訊息，所以我們就質疑，是不是只有「巷子內」的人才知道有這個東西？宣傳不足、收件時間又很短，只有跟國科會比較熟的人，或者是跟國科會裡面官員比較熟的人才有可能得到這個訊息、才能夠申請，這也是一個非常大的問題。這後來在博士班裡面造成一個話題，很多在學的博士班學生不能接受，認為這個獎學金到底在幹麼？很多人已經是一年級了，他已經一年級就不能夠去申請這個獎學金，因為這個獎學金是針對還沒入學的，所以很多一年級的學生變成先爭取到資格，然後再去考一個博士班，想要取得這個獎學金的資格。","我上次已經針對相關的問題質詢過原來的國科會主委，那時候國科會主委也覺得這有點怪怪的，要提供一個解決方案，那個影片在網路上我也都公開，我也有把這個影片傳給民眾，表示國科會願意解決，可是後來就沒有了、不了了之啊！給的報告就是那種敷衍的啊！這個東西已經隔了2個月了，我沒有得到一個答案，對於民眾也沒辦法交代啊！既然國科會要編這個預算，為什麼不能把它做好呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我可以請我們科國處來說明一下。"],["葉委員元之：可以、可以，因為……"],["黃副處長郁禎：跟委員報告，其實我們在辦理這個獎學金的時候有找各個主要大學的學院院長或是國際長來做說明，我們也有發過新聞稿……"],["葉委員元之：現在就是不夠，我剛剛講的是實際發生的問題，你現在講的是你做了什麼，比如說你考試考5分，我現在跟你講你沒有到100分，結果你說有啊！我數學對了1題，那你還差95分嘛！所以你不要告訴我這5分的事情，我現在是告訴你，你沒有做到100分，甚至80分都沒有，你要怎麼解決？"],["黃副處長郁禎：我們今年……"],["葉委員元之：要怎麼解決？因為已經講很久了，你要告訴我解決方案是什麼？"],["黃副處長郁禎：今年公告的時候我們會到各個學校去做大幅的宣傳……"],["葉委員元之：針對已經發生的，因為現在很多博士班一年級、二年級的在學生，他們也沒辦法申請，為什麼你們只圖利一些知道這訊息的人呢？你們為什麼不能夠擴大讓大多數人都可以得到這個獎學金呢？"],["黃副處長郁禎：我們回去會再……"],["葉委員元之：不要回去了啦！又要回去，回去就沒有了啦！"],["黃副處長郁禎：今年因為我們已經……"],["葉委員元之：主委、主委，我前面都對你很客氣，我對你都非常客氣……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們答應修改。"],["葉委員元之：可是我不喜歡人家糊弄我……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們答應修改。"],["葉委員元之：但是我已經被國科會糊弄了2個月，以後大家也不是沒有見面的機會，如果國科會以後來這邊備詢的態度都是認為我在這邊，反正我有時間限制嘛！先騙一下，或者是每次回答問題都從女媧補天開始講，把我時間拖完，剩下就說：回去、回去，最後又沒有補，我覺得這種態度我沒辦法接受。主委，我現在就嚴厲的要求，因為已經2個月了，什麼時候可以給我一個真正解決的方案？"],["吳主任委員誠文：下個禮拜。"],["葉委員元之：下個禮拜，主委你講的喔！召委，主委講的！召委，你幫我跟主委講一下，因為我們國民黨講的，國科會比較不理我們，民進黨幫我講一下。我在這邊質詢也是委員會的委員，你跟國科會講一下，上次已經糊弄一次了，希望他們尊重我們教文委員會，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會糊弄啦！"],["葉委員元之：解決方案喔！不是給我一個從女媧補天開始講的東西喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不用補天……"],["葉委員元之：不是沒考100分，然後說自己考了5分很棒的這種東西喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們只要補救就好了，補救那……"],["葉委員元之：補救、解決嘛！上次問題已經講很清楚了，好不好？大家維持一個互相尊重、良善的互動方式，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，也請吳主委務必拿出解決的具體方法，速速、速度快。","再來請羅廷瑋委員。我再宣告一下，陳培瑜委員質詢完之後，我們來處理臨時提案跟解凍案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.54721875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.46659375,"end":101.50034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.47909375,"end":102.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.49596875,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.86534375000001,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.31659375000001,"end":123.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.36721875,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.94409375000001,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.40784375000001,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.20471875,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.34721875,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.53596875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.13471875000002,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.14284375,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.74096875,"end":155.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.92221875,"end":159.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.10721875000002,"end":170.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.56596875000002,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.61346875,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.96721875,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.03471875000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.40596875,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.61909375000002,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.47534375,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.02346875,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.80346875,"end":217.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.63409375,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.71721875,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.60659375,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.76284375,"end":258.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.33659375,"end":259.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.99471875,"end":262.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.14596875,"end":268.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.49534375,"end":268.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.78221875,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.07721875000004,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.91971875,"end":329.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.52784375000005,"end":331.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.35471875,"end":333.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.93659375000004,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.96596875,"end":338.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.16784375000003,"end":343.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.85909375,"end":346.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.40721875,"end":358.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.82284375,"end":365.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.23096875000005,"end":367.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.90596875,"end":367.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.86784375,"end":371.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.46659375,"end":374.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.52096875,"end":374.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.55471875,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.80784375,"end":375.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.49534375,"end":377.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.70596875,"end":379.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.87034375,"end":380.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.00096875,"end":385.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.04659375,"end":393.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.06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2019年的時候民進黨的立委也在我們的委員會范雲女士她就曾經公開抹紅你啊就說你在清大當時好像曾經有參加過一些兩岸交流的學術活動"},{"start":63.45,"end":86.598,"text":"就說你們清大已經已經被這個中共控制了然後當時我們有國民黨委員質詢蘇貞昌院長結果說怎麼可以這樣抹紅呢那結果蘇貞昌院長說沒有抹紅他就是紅然後甚至於講說陸方的分支就是不能夠在清大設置當時我看那個新聞為你抱屈那今天很難得待到這邊可以跟你對話啦可不可以"},{"start":88.098,"end":113.295,"text":"幫我們陳述一下像當時你在被抹紅的時候明明是站在產業站在學術但是動不動被扣帽子變成中共的在台代理人這樣的心情心路歷程是怎樣當時我是擔任清華大學副校長當時是馬英九總統任內鼓勵兩岸的交流那時候是2015年嘛"},{"start":115.733,"end":140.692,"text":"2015 or 2015 or2016.你們有兩件事情被罵啦一件事情是2015啦你去參加一個街牌啦就是一個清華的一個學術中心的街牌還有一個是2019年當時是清華大他們對岸的清華大學副校長來訪嘛所以清大校長去接待嘛然後就說清大被滲透了啦當時有沒有在學校看到很多匪諜有沒有舉報"},{"start":143.524,"end":148.389,"text":"我當時當副校長是奉命接待啦那時候校長令有其他的事情不在是是那時候心路歷程是怎樣就是被抹紅的心路歷程是怎樣"},{"start":160.38,"end":186.668,"text":"當然是非常委屈嘛我本人是一切是以臺灣為優先我關心我們的社會關心我們的國家的發展所以我的生涯裡面所有的工作不管是在學術界還是在公務員服務擔任校長等等我從來就是不會以政治意識為考量"},{"start":187.697,"end":209.795,"text":"那我會以國家本土的發展為優先的考量其實大家都是啦但是有些人就很喜歡抹紅別人扣人家帽子啦那當時罵你最兇的是范雲女士啦也是我們教育文化委員會我是不知道她質詢過了沒啦還沒啊你有沒有什麼話要跟她講嗎說欸委員你誤會我了啦我是一生以台灣為優先不要動不動扣帽子你會這樣子跟她講嗎"},{"start":212.877,"end":231.017,"text":"我想委員應該最後還是會明瞭我的心意啦我是為台灣他很難瞭解別人心意啊真的一個有色眼鏡戴酒的人啊很難瞭解別人心意啦很會吃自助餐啦女權自助餐就是要攻擊別人的時候就搬女權然後要袒護自己人的時候就看不到"},{"start":231.738,"end":257.833,"text":"所以當時你就是他攻擊的目標啦他很難看到啦我建議你還是要跟他講一下因為現在你的位置特別重要到時候不要國科會推動一些兩岸交流相關事務因為尤其是你在報紙上也講了嘛你說這個不會無意讓大陸科技持續落後啊然後不會介入中美進逐哦等一下可能又被罵了我認為你在第一時間要講清楚好不好我們都是為了台灣"},{"start":258.693,"end":269.909,"text":"為台灣為台灣正常的交流不要抹紅對吧我尊照身為政府官我尊照賴總統的指示我們要建造一個"},{"start":271.127,"end":273.268,"text":"對,太好了,我們絕對是支持你因為我們都跟你一樣常常被抹紅像最近在國會討論國會改革法也要被講成是幫習近平投票這種"},{"start":292.133,"end":294.194,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":308.198,"end":332.805,"text":"當然延續兩岸的話題大家擔心說兩岸未來會不會有一些國安的問題開戰美國路透社有個報導說荷蘭的ASSml就是一個光科機的一個廠商他說他可以跟我們台積電在遠端只要台灣遇到一些國安問題可以在遠端關閉台積電的一些設備這不知道你有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":334.045,"end":358.561,"text":"有有看到新聞那那因為當時這個新聞出來之後大家覺得說欸那麼厲害喔原來可以做到這樣的技術那到時候就算開戰好像台積電也不太容易就淪落到他人之手嘛那所以大家很關注啦那因為很多專家後來媒體報導之後出來就進口了就不講了這個事情我想請教一下主委你對這個事情的了解是怎樣有可能在技術上做得到嗎"},{"start":359.881,"end":381.61,"text":"以現在在半導體產業的智慧製造的技術是可以做得到是可以做得到所以他們是有能力遠端關閉全球最先進的晶片製造設備EUV是不是 是可以的技術上是可以的所以這個新聞就是沒有錯你有證實有這樣的一個技術"},{"start":386.127,"end":412.463,"text":"那我們的博客會針對這方面的技術有任何的比如說鼓勵研發嗎或增加相關的能量有嗎這個本身是智慧製造的技術我們各行各業各種設備只要能夠連上網路就可以利用這個智慧製造的這種技術可以來監控遠方的設備包含停機這個事情"},{"start":413.403,"end":436.462,"text":"好再來這是我個人接受到一個陳情因為主委剛上任其實這個議題我關心很久了上任主委本來在我執行的時候有答應我說要提出一個解決方案不過每次都是這樣在委員會講的官員的承諾到最後都沒有然後要求給報告給個報告就是講一些無關痛癢的背景從來不針對問題"},{"start":438.303,"end":458.869,"text":"所以我利用這個機會也跟主委再講一下希望說主委真的能夠解決這個問題這個問題是因為國科會有一個博士生的研究獎學金的試辦方案去年開始的那去年9月的時候開了一個記者會然後隨即隔一個月立刻就收件那就收件一個月的時間"},{"start":460.829,"end":484.877,"text":"這個獎學金主要是要補助新入學的博士生大概是這樣但它裡面有幾個問題會發生第一個問題就是因為它是在一月多的時候就公布得到獎學金的名單九月收件、一個月收件、隔年一月公布導致於說很多是一月之後才決定要讀博士班的學生他是沒有辦法去申請這個獎學金的"},{"start":487.539,"end":512.641,"text":"他們就成為漏網之魚啦然後第二個是我覺得這個宣傳是完全不足因為當時我問了很多學校的學生跟學校的老師還有一些本來想要讀博士班的學生他們通通都不知道這個訊息所以我們就質疑說是不是只有巷子內的人才知道有這個東西宣傳不足收件時間又很短"},{"start":513.496,"end":532.865,"text":"那只有跟國科會比較熟的人或者是跟國科會裡面官員比較熟的人才有可能得到這個訊息才能夠來申請這也是一個非常大的問題那後來就在博士班裡面造成一個話題很多在學的博士班學生不能接受就認為說這個獎金到底在幹嘛"},{"start":535.106,"end":555.396,"text":"那很多人是已經一年級了嘛一年級他就不能夠去申請這個補習班嘛講學金嘛因為這個講學金是針對還沒入學的所以很多一年級的學生他變得說那他再去重新去先爭取到資格然後再去考一個博士班然後想要取得這個講學金的資格"},{"start":556.336,"end":584.752,"text":"我上次已經針對相關的問題有質詢過原來的國會主委那時候國會主委也覺得說這有點怪怪的說要提供一個解決方案那那個影片在網路上我也都有公開我有把這影片傳給我們的民眾說我們要國會願意解決可是後來就沒有了就不了了之啊然後給的報告就是那種敷衍的啊那這個東西已經隔了兩個月了啊我們又得到一個答案我們對於我們的民眾也沒辦法交代啊"},{"start":585.552,"end":592.457,"text":"那既然國會要編任預算為什麼不能把它做到好呢?我可以請我們柯國促來?可以可以可以因為"},{"start":594.557,"end":614.796,"text":"報告啊那其實我們在辦理這個獎學金的時候我們其實有找各個大學的主要大學叫學員長或是國際長有來做個說明那我們也有發過新聞稿你現在就是不夠我剛剛講的是11發這個問題你現在講的是說你做什麼你做比如說你考試啊你考五分啊我現在跟你講說你沒有到100分結果你說有啊我對的數學一題"},{"start":617.719,"end":644.637,"text":"那你還差95分嘛所以你不要告訴我這5分的事情我現在是告訴你說你沒有做到100分甚至80分都沒有到你要怎麼解決那我們今年要不然你要怎麼解決因為已經講久了解決方案解決方案是什麼?針對已經發生的因為現在很多博士班一年級二年級的在學生他們也沒有辦法申請嘛那為什麼你只圖利一些就知道這訊息的人呢你為什麼不能夠擴大讓大多數人都可以得到這個獎學金呢"},{"start":645.418,"end":670.975,"text":"那我們回去會再﹖ 不要回去了啦又要回去回去就沒有啦 欸主委我前面都對你很客氣我對你都非常客氣那可是我不喜歡人家呼嚨我但是我已經被國科會呼嚨了兩個月了已經呼嚨了兩個月那以後大家也不是沒有見面的機會如果說國會會以後來這邊備許的態度都是我在這邊反正我有時間限制嘛"},{"start":672.416,"end":699.378,"text":"先騙一下或者是每次回答問題都從女娲補天開始講然後講到把我時間拖完然後剩下就說回去回去然後最後又沒有補那我覺得這種態度我沒辦法接受所以主委我現在就是嚴厲的要求就是說我因為已經兩個月了什麼時候可以給我一個真正解決的方案下個禮拜下個禮拜主委你講的喔 趙偉他那個主委講的趙偉他不理我"},{"start":701.24,"end":725.853,"text":"那你幫我跟主委講一下因為我們國民黨的國會比較不理我們民進黨幫我講一下因為我在這邊質詢也是委員會的委員嘛好不好你跟國會講一下說上次已經呼嚨一次了希望他們尊重我們教文委員會可以嗎好不會再呼嚨啦解決方案喔不是說給我一個說從米花普天開始講這種東西喔考100分然後說我考了5分很棒的這種東西喔"},{"start":727.054,"end":736.388,"text":"我們只要補救就好啦補救那補救解決嘛上次問題已經講很清楚了好不好大家維持一個互相尊重的良善的互動方式好嗎沒問題好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152913","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453740bbded40de43be9f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e8356400f31e14007595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:27:07 - 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說讓大家就是不被剝削大家才有願意留下來是不是這樣是當然當然對所以說我們是有怎麼樣去做這樣子的一個合作機制跟僑委會我們部長這邊有沒有什麼想法我當然我想他這個"},{"start":145.72,"end":164.528,"text":"我覺得我可以來提醒他們就是我們這些跨部會在平台會議的時候我們來提醒他們要注意這一個學校在引進的時候跟企業的合作端的時候是不是有不當剝削的情況發生這些可能要做一些就業保障"},{"start":167.13,"end":193.685,"text":"因為共同合作提醒是你的部署其他人提醒你是對的我要怎麼樣是達成共同合作這個才真正的保障外國人在臺灣就是就學跟就業這個部分就是希望部長你協助還有針對就是喬生喬生在臺灣畢業照現在的規定企業想要"},{"start":194.525,"end":202.247,"text":"拼用喬生必須達到收支基本額新台幣500萬以上還有營業額到1000萬以上進入口的實際准拔要美金100萬以上或代理用金達到美金40萬以上的門檻"},{"start":219.79,"end":236.181,"text":"才能請我們的僑生留下來工作 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等一下 等一下 等一下 現在要開外賣嗎?對啊 沒關係 你點了我就請人起來"},{"start":38.526,"end":51.498,"text":"主席楊瓊瓔發言我想今天我們還是回歸今天的主題洗錢防制法跟立法院的解通案所以本席首先要先請周秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":58.058,"end":80.769,"text":"楊瓊瓔好。議長。其實在5月17號我發覺真的你委屈了。當你被推在地上你的文件都被搶走。我們真的都傻眼了。史上頭一招。我也看到我們議事組人員也被嗆聲。我真的蠻難過的。"},{"start":82.557,"end":102.05,"text":"我們是一個理性的國家民主國家不應當有這樣的行為所以我還是呼籲我們藍綠白的委員大家都是為台灣在努力我們應該要好好的來問責不要再有那種暴力連議事組人員都搶這個是不對的一個行為"},{"start":108.815,"end":129.014,"text":"當然我也可以了解在整個氛圍當中大家會有所情緒但是情緒之後我們仍舊希望大家冷靜下來所以針對今天的解凍案包括了資訊設備與入口網平台公報業務公報行政"},{"start":133.477,"end":154.193,"text":"這一些本席認為今天在英明的召集人的主持之下希望能夠好好理性討論該解凍的去解凍為什麼我首先要提出這一點因為公報對我們來講很重要當天很多委員都吶喊我沒有看到資料"},{"start":155.623,"end":157.445,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,"},{"start":173.137,"end":195.892,"text":"我身為立法院的議員我仍舊希望在我剛剛所說的這個向下待會大家實質討論的時候有必要的盡快解凍因為這個對於我們整個議事來講是非常重要的所以首先我要請教秘書長當天那一種情況你心裡作何感想"},{"start":199.753,"end":200.234,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":215.456,"end":216.037,"text":"五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗"},{"start":245.417,"end":245.818,"text":"法寶﹑兩本書本席也說了﹑"},{"start":253.086,"end":269.171,"text":"也就是說在當時的氛圍大家這個情緒似乎我們都可以理解但是我希望不要再有這種暴力的行為那所以呢現在大家說為什麼會提出這個舉手表決在聯合國在德國這些國家都有"},{"start":276.892,"end":284.657,"text":"在這樣的情況之下因為依照議事規則的規範在這個規範當中大家去調整大家去調整我還請問秘書長當時我們休息協商經過了幾次的草野協商對不對開始又到後面協商對不對我似乎聽到三黨當中"},{"start":305.222,"end":308.446,"text":"有人說我們大家都回來做著好好來表決。"},{"start":310.1,"end":336.428,"text":"但是協商不成有人反對對不對是不是我會變在這個會裡面說明啦那因為協商當時是不公開齁所以我不不不不已在這邊做報告所以協商我們結果論嘛你們出去有人提到這樣的意見但是協商不成那到底誰反對大家都回來坐在椅子上好好的來用表決器表決"},{"start":339.882,"end":357.683,"text":"誰張不成就是一定有人反對嘛到底誰反對本期之所以會提出這樣論點就是希望我們不要給社會大眾不正確的訊息接下來我放一段影片我是不忍心放但是我覺得要還原事實我放一分鐘影片"},{"start":361.913,"end":363.514,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":390.452,"end":392.474,"text":"議員無效!影像代表一切這一些都是公開透明的所以我做一個結論立法院是這麼這麼的重要我們代表民意我們希望好好的來討論希望大家藍綠白都不要說不正確的訊息給社會大眾最後一個議題本席要請教"},{"start":418.737,"end":440.628,"text":"因為國會在這邊範圍非常的小上一屆的游錫堃院長他非常的用心這一點我欽佩他他到各地只要有人提議國會可以轉到哪裡可以在哪裡的這個地點他一個一個一個去拜會一個一個去看在台中我建議到台中"},{"start":445.08,"end":465.025,"text":"所以由院長到台中的時候我自己本身親自陪同我親自陪同所以這個目前也列在這一屆的項目之內嗎?進度如何?請教我只跟廖處長跟你比較詳細的說好馬上現在已經有呈報給好了現在的進度怎麼樣呢?處長請做說明"},{"start":469.806,"end":492.076,"text":"報告現在我們總務處已經簽報那等草野協商決定後的地點我們會進行後續的可行性評估好謝謝所以現在進行是當中嘛你已經簽報就等三黨的草野協商嘛我充分建議在我們台中最棒高雄來OK花東來OK北部下去OK大家最公平本席建議"},{"start":496.592,"end":499.745,"text":"總理市長辛苦了。議事人員辛苦了。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453079f9b603f0eabd9bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e838b571ebbc9e398835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:08:07 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11:22:36","影片長度":"00:14:29","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":869,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:22:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:08:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1046,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長早。今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正，我想藉這個機會跟您快速地討論一下，我想這是一個觀念的分享，是一個思維的再精進。我過去長期在教育及文化委員會，我是臺灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人，所以我協助藝術文化界，當香港發生反送中事件，臺灣是一個最好的歷史契機，讓20年前臺灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要舞臺，能夠藉由此時此刻臺灣的經濟發展、臺灣的民主、社會秩序的穩定等等，現在是讓臺灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻。所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報，定下了這一個政策方針，但法務部是有角色的，也許您會覺得很好奇，您跟藝術品有什麼關係？您有沒有去參加過藝博、藝術博覽會，有沒有收藏、購買藝術品的經驗，或是生活上的喜好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我對這個很有興趣，但是我沒有去參加過博覽會。"],["吳委員思瑤：下次我會邀請您來看。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這跟法務部大有關係。就在5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的「台北當代」，今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展，短短3天3.5萬人進場，有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣，國內外都非常蓬勃地在臺灣精進、發生，這幾年的藝博會是非常hot，讓大家非常期待臺灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭。","藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎？我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念，當我在協助很多的拍賣公司、拍賣產業或是藝術創作者，在修法的階段，或者是我現在秀出來的例子，當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力，要IPO，不管是上市、上櫃，各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場，因為不管是證期局、證交所或是櫃買中心，在收受、受理這些拍賣公司要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住，卡在一個藝術品拍賣就是洗錢、很容易洗錢，所以對於這樣子的行業設下了層層的關卡跟不友善，這是我要跟您分享的，這是藝文、藝術產業碰到的問題。這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中，法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於興利，對於藝術拍賣產業污名化。","就本人在推動文化藝術獎助條例的修法，那個過程也是非常地辛苦，我們要擴大讓藝術品交易更進步，讓臺灣更有稅制競爭力，所以採分離課稅，而且稅制定為1.2%，2021年這一次的修法，我實在歷經千辛萬苦，因為財政部很保留，財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見，因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢，甚至它不是問號，幾乎是驚嘆號，讓我們在修法的過程，我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓臺灣取代香港，活化臺灣的藝術品交易市場，在修法的過程也卡在法務部的法律解釋，那是觀念的問題。","所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢？洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說目前沒有適用，因為在所有的交易相關作業裡頭都很清楚，清清楚楚、乾乾淨淨，金流買賣該登載的，所有的法制管控都做得非常完備。甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後，文化部在2020年召開的文化會報再次定調拍賣市場原則上不適用洗錢防制法之後，文化部也進一步訂定了一個子法，很明確地規定藝術品交易的金額超過50萬元就要在拍賣前1個月向文化部提出申請，而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達7年。","所以部長，我分享到這裡，我需要您政策上的宣示，法務部門對於洗錢防制、打詐、防詐都要做，但是對於正向地推動臺灣藝術文化的交易，這個國家軟實力，尤其要重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心這個重要的文化政策，法務部的立場要清楚、要堅定，支持藝文產業，yes or no？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，跟各位委員報告，我們是會支持文化產業，文化的這些藝術品的拍賣，當然是不適用洗防法，這大概……"],["吳委員思瑤：這要很清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：很清楚的。在個案上如果說有這種情況，那當然要有證據，有透過任何這種合法的方式來掩蓋非法，那是我們個案來處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以在個案上，如果真的有涉及洗錢，當然該辦就辦，但是在通案跟制度上，是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分，也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關產業或是藝術團隊，都要用更友善、更進步、更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，您請回。","有請周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長，您在國會這麼多年，但我要說，您輔佐襄贊之下的韓院長上任3個月，就創下了過去立法院30年都沒有的國會惡例！第一個，黑箱喬條文，透明公開在哪裡？第二個，程序不正義，民主審查全都失靈；第三個，議事不中立，議事規則會轉彎，這跟您大有關係；第四個，表決不公平，一路做票做到贏，這也跟您大大相關！很抱歉，這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例，我要提出強烈的批判！立法院不能黑箱喬條文、立法院不能夠程序不正義、立法院不能議事不中立、更不能表決不公平！跟您大有關係！","我看到國民黨的委員說，為什麼要用舉手表決呢？因為表決卡不見了，所以被迫要改成舉手表決，這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論，他甚至說，表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的！我問一下秘書長，我們立法院有這麼落後嗎？委員的表決卡不見了，你沒有其他的卡、空卡可以來做因應防範嗎？秘書長，請回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為卡在當時是被……因為某種因素被抽出、掉了。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後呢，你們都沒有備卡嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：如果這樣，任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事，只要去幹走幾張卡、A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這一個當場立即的處理上……"],["吳委員思瑤：這不通嘛！如果這樣，是不是你要用一個金庫，每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好、層層防護，要有保全保護表決卡，沒有任何的備案嗎？這是什麼理由？更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道、胡扯栽贓！","我們來看影片，誰手上拿著一疊表決卡？誰去搶表決卡？誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡？而且把卡插到表決委員的座位前面，而且沒有一個委員在座位上，是誰？是國民黨的徐欣瑩委員！我們來看一下影片，秘書長，你注意看一下這個影片，大家注意看一下這個影片！有沒有辦法傳？沒有辦法傳，是不是？好，也節省時間。我告訴秘書長，是該查！如果有表決卡不見了，該查是誰偷走、是誰蓄意地破壞議事秩序，但是就我們所搜證的結果，拿走一疊表決卡而且違反韓院長說的，唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡，而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上。國民黨的徐欣瑩委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡？他為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡？查清楚！查清楚！","第二個，表決卡如果不見，表決就不能進行了，就要改舉手表決，這立法院實在太落伍了吧！基本上我覺得是胡說八道啦，不會因為沒有表決卡就不能表決啦，你都有備卡、空卡可以來因應，舉手表決是為了什麼？舉手表決是為了一路做票做到底！這就是鐵證，在場只有108人，是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣告，在場人數108人，贊成60人，否定50人。請問秘書長，60加50是多少？請回答！"],["周秘書長萬來：也可能是……"],["吳委員思瑤：請回答！60加50是？注意，有藐視國會罪喔！我直接問您60加50等於多少，秘書長？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為110裡面……"],["吳委員思瑤：我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔，秘書長就回答我這個問題，60加50是多少？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：簡單的數學問題，請回答。請回答，秘書長。主席，對不起，我要占用一點時間，因為這個數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸！"],["周秘書長萬來：這邊是寫110……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，60加50就是110人，可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人。舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況，這是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部，每一次表決我都要去遞一張重新清點人數、重新清點人數，這就是必要！我不要說是不是有作票的意圖，至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算錯誤，就應當嚴謹地好好把每一次的表決人數算到底！","讓我們看一下楊瓊瓔委員的這個影片，瓊瓔委員您在場，看一下，好嗎？也沒有辦法看影片，是不是？就是當韓院長在宣告某一案表決的時候，民進黨只有51席，可是韓院長的宣告是，贊成民進黨要改記名表決的是53人，然後楊瓊瓔委員在場就說好幾次：民進黨怎麼可能53人、民進黨怎麼可能53人！楊瓊瓔委員是反應快，真的反應快，這要嘉獎，他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題，他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民眾黨……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以舉手表決的重大……","好，楊瓊瓔委員現在改口說民進黨53人，他當天不是問號，他是驚嘆號，好棒喔，誰加入支持民進黨。那誰加入支持民進黨？用舉手表決算得出來、看得出來嗎？必須要記名表決、清清楚楚地對歷史負責，如果就楊瓊瓔委員說的，民進黨這個議案支持的是53票，那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨，唯一的方式就是按鈕表決、記名對歷史負責，不是嗎？","我後面還有很多，我今天時間不夠。秘書長，明天又是一次的院會，這些失序、失靈還要再發生嗎？這些失序、失靈還要再發生嗎？唯一的解方您非常清楚，就是韓院長循正辦在3樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開、回到協商場域，繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法、國會擴權法案逐條協商、逐條討論，這才是正辦，好嗎？"],["主席：時間關係，謝謝……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有討論，不是民主！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有討論，不是民主！秘書長，您是非常重要襄贊院長主持要中立、公平的人！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝！"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。不好意思，佔用時間。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝周秘書長。","接下來請楊委員瓊瓔發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 4案；二、處理113年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案；三、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議\n「洗錢防制法修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.80846875,"end":45.930968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.38659375,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.62659375,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.70096875,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.43909375000001,"end":95.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.49721875,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.24784375,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.77784375,"end":122.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.42096875000001,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.24596875,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.34659375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.42534375,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.87659375,"end":187.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.30971875,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.80534375000002,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.54721875,"end":222.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.96659375000002,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.05096875,"end":228.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.26096875000002,"end":229.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.45909375000002,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.40659375,"end":244.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.86596875,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.80596875,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.51346875,"end":293.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.20034375,"end":314.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.49659375000005,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.33721875000003,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.75471875,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.51659375,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.69784375,"end":350.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.02909375,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.97971875,"end":386.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.97471875,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.41346875000005,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.07534375,"end":392.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.80909375000005,"end":394.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.87221875,"end":396.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.68221875,"end":396.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.49221875,"end":396.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.60596875000005,"end":424.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.97721875,"end":424.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.14596875,"end":430.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.46159375,"end":444.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.33284375000005,"end":455.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.64721875000004,"end":462.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.36784375,"end":465.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.86534375,"end":467.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.56971875000005,"end":485.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.53721875,"end":488.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.95034375000006,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.44784375,"end":492.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.89909375,"end":495.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.92784375,"end":499.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.12596875,"end":499.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.42534375,"end":509.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.70659375,"end":509.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.97659375,"end":511.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.24659375000005,"end":517.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.92471875,"end":518.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.9709687500001,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.03846875,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.9665937500001,"end":520.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.03409375,"end":521.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.44721875,"end":526.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.67034375,"end":526.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.04159375,"end":527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而有請部長 鄭部長"},{"start":12.646,"end":32.899,"text":"部長長,今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正。那我想藉這個機會跟您快速的討論一下,我想這是一個觀念的分享,是一個思維的再精進。我過去長期在教育文化委員會,我是台灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人。"},{"start":33.579,"end":45.527,"text":"所以我協助藝術文化界當香港發生反送中事件台灣是一個最好的歷史契機讓20年前台灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要的"},{"start":46.448,"end":50.711,"text":"此時此刻台灣的經濟發展台灣的民主社會秩序的穩定等等現在是讓台灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報定下了這一個政策方針但法務部是有角色的也許您會覺得很好奇您跟藝術品有什麼關係好下一頁"},{"start":76.751,"end":84.435,"text":"您有沒有去參加過藝博藝術博覽會有沒有收藏購買藝術品的這個經驗或是生活上的喜好按鈕跟委員報告我對這個很有興趣但是我沒有去參加過博覽會下一次我會邀請您來看好謝謝這跟法務部大有關係下一頁就5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的台北當代"},{"start":107.829,"end":116.972,"text":"這個今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展短短三天3.5萬人進場有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣國內外都非常蓬勃的在台灣精進發聲這幾年的藝博會是非常hot非常讓大家能夠期待台灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭好下一頁"},{"start":136.657,"end":160.862,"text":"藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎?我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念當我在協助很多的拍賣公司拍賣產業或是藝術創作者在修法的階段或者是我現在秀出來的例子當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力要IPO不管是上市上櫃各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場"},{"start":162.722,"end":176.259,"text":"因為不管是政期局、政交所或是櫃買中心在收受、受理這些拍賣公司他要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住卡在一個藝術品拍賣"},{"start":177.961,"end":200.946,"text":"就是洗錢很容易洗錢所以這樣子的一個行業設下了很多層層的關卡跟不友善這是我要跟您分享的這是藝文藝術產業碰到的問題這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於行李對於藝術拍賣產業污名化下一頁"},{"start":206.544,"end":206.884,"text":"我實在歷經千辛萬苦。"},{"start":229.315,"end":250.574,"text":"因為財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢甚至他不是問號幾乎是驚嘆號讓我們在修法的過程我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓台灣取代香港"},{"start":251.86,"end":252.401,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":260.563,"end":281.729,"text":"所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢?洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說嘛目前沒有適用嘛因為在所有的交易的相關的作業裡頭都很清楚清清楚楚乾乾淨淨金流買賣該登載的所有的法治管控都做得非常的完備甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後文化部在2020年召開了文化會報"},{"start":287.35,"end":313.81,"text":"再次定調之後拍賣市場原則上不是用洗錢防制法之後文化部也進一步定定了一個執法很明確的將藝術品交易的金額超過五十萬元就要在拍賣前一個月向文化部提出申請而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達七年所以部長我分享到這裡我需要您政策上的宣誓"},{"start":314.611,"end":314.631,"text":"議員吳思瑤"},{"start":337.009,"end":337.029,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":363.132,"end":389.474,"text":"所以在個案上若有真的涉及洗錢當然該辦就辦但是在通案跟制度上是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關的產業或是藝術團隊都要用更友善更進步更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場好嗎是好那謝謝您請回有請周愛蘭秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":395.396,"end":395.718,"text":"吳委員好"},{"start":397.677,"end":421.977,"text":"您在國會這麼多年但我要說您輔佐相戰之下的韓院長上任三個月就創下了過去立法院三十年都沒有的國會惡例第一個黑箱橋條文透明公開在哪裡第二個程序不正義民主審查全都失靈第三個議事不中立議事規則會轉彎這跟您大有關係"},{"start":425.305,"end":443.642,"text":"第四個表決不公平一路做票做到贏這也跟您大大相關很抱歉這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現的國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例我要提出強烈的批判"},{"start":444.443,"end":455.553,"text":"律法院不能黑箱橋條文律法院不能夠程序不正義律法院不能議事不中立更不能表決不公平跟您大有關係下頁"},{"start":457.694,"end":460.736,"text":"我看到國民黨的委員說為什麼要用舉手表決呢因為啊表決卡不見了所以被迫啊要改成舉手表決這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論他甚至說表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的我問一下秘書長我們地方議員有沒有這麼落後"},{"start":486.587,"end":494.76,"text":"委員的表決卡不見了。你沒有其他的空卡可以來做因應防範嗎?對手對友請回答。"},{"start":500.458,"end":515.751,"text":"因為卡在當時是被這個因為某種因素被抽出掉了然後呢你們都沒有被卡嗎?如果這樣任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事只要去幹走幾張卡A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎?因為這個當場的立即的處理上這不通嘛"},{"start":522.489,"end":535.684,"text":"那如果這樣是不是你要用一個金庫每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好殘殘防護要有保全保護表決卡沒有任何的備案嗎?"},{"start":537.817,"end":561.975,"text":"這什麼理由?更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道胡扯栽贓下頁我們來看影片誰手上拿著一疊表決卡誰去搶表決卡誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡而且把卡插到表決的委員的座位前面而且沒有一個委員在座位上"},{"start":563.027,"end":571.723,"text":"是誰?是國民黨的徐欣盈委員。我們來看一下影片。秘書長你注意看一下這個影片。大家注意看一下這個影片。"},{"start":572.998,"end":573.098,"text":"有沒有辦法傳?"},{"start":573.098,"end":573.639,"text":"沒有辦法傳是不是?"},{"start":573.639,"end":574.96,"text":"好也節省時間我告訴秘書長是該查如果有表決卡不見了該查是誰偷走是誰蓄意地破壞議事秩序但是就我們所搜證的結果拿走一疊表決卡"},{"start":593.158,"end":620.648,"text":"而且在違反韓院長說的唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上國民黨的徐欣穎委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡她為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡查清楚查清楚第二個表決卡如果不見了表決就不能進行了就要改舉手表決這立法院實在太落伍了吧"},{"start":621.755,"end":623.637,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":641.932,"end":650.659,"text":"在場只有108人是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣誓宣告在場人數108人贊成60人否定50人請問秘書長60加50是多少請回答"},{"start":662.07,"end":678.178,"text":"請回答60加50是注意喔有藐視國會罪喔我直接問您喔60加50等於多少秘書長我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔秘書長就回答我這個問題60加50是多少簡單的數學問題是請回答"},{"start":687.444,"end":700.879,"text":"請回答秘書長主席對不起我要佔有一點時間因為這個問題數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸這邊是寫110好60加50就是110人可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人"},{"start":703.161,"end":730.562,"text":"舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況就是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部我每一次表決我都要去第一章重新清點人數重新清點人數這就是必要好我不要說是不是有作票的意圖至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算的錯誤就應當嚴謹的來好好把每一次的表決人數算到底下一頁"},{"start":731.603,"end":756.318,"text":"讓我看一下楊瓊英委員的這個影片齁瓊英委員您在場齁看一下好嗎也沒有辦法看影片是不是就是當韓院長在宣告某一案的表決的時候民進黨只有51席啊可是韓院長的宣告是民進黨的贊成方舉手 贊成舉手表決的 贊成要改記名表決的是53人"},{"start":759.281,"end":760.962,"text":"然後楊瓊英委員在場齁（就講幾個字就講明鏡黨怎麼可能有53人啊明鏡黨怎麼可能53人這是楊瓊英委員在這楊瓊英委員是反應快真的反應快這要加獎他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題"},{"start":778.18,"end":793.439,"text":"所以舉手表決的重大好那楊雄一委員現在改口說民進黨53人他當天不是問號他是驚嘆號好棒喔誰加入支持民進黨那誰加入支持民進黨用舉手表決算得出來看得出來嗎"},{"start":794.949,"end":824.128,"text":"必須要記名表決清清楚楚的對歷史負責如果就楊瓊英委員說的民進黨這個議案支持的是53票那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨唯一的方式就是按鈕表決記名對歷史負責不是嗎我後面還有很多今天時間不夠我要請秘書長明天又是一次的院會這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎"},{"start":825.93,"end":842.461,"text":"這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎?唯一的解方您非常清楚就是韓院長循政辦在三樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開回到協商場域繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法國會擴權法案逐條協商逐條討論這才是正辦"},{"start":853.628,"end":853.909,"text":"接下來請楊委員"}]}},{"id":"152910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152910","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453866b5c31bfe14ee49f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e83c103fba9c3d2f6a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:20:15 - 11:27:01","影片長度":"00:06:46","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":406,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:27:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:20:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":754,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時20分）謝謝主席，何部長，有請。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安，辛苦了，今天第一天來備詢喔！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們也做了一些功課，您過去年輕的時候在勞工運動裡面應該算是有一定的歷練，本席第一次的質詢要跟您討論一下勞工的一些政策，希望您不忘初衷，可以幫我們的勞工朋友一起來講話。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們就直接單刀直入主題，第一個是今天剛剛的新聞，今年的第一號颱風即將生成，每一次颱風來襲時要不要放假，都是大家，尤其是基層勞工，其實都非常期待可以多放一天颱風假，因為大家都說臺灣的過勞狀況其實很嚴重。目前大部分的人對於颱風假，有些人是當成小確幸，有些人是當成喘口氣的一個機會，但本席會關心颱風假背後的政策細節，所以要跟部長來做一下討論。照理來講，我們會放颱風假不應該是因為小確幸啦，其實應該是注重勞工的安全嘛，對不對？也就是說，不要因為颱風的天災，在通勤或者是工作的時候有職業安全的一些危險，所以我們要有一個放假的機制，部長同意我這樣的說法嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該沒有錯嘛，對不對？既然是為了勞工生命安全的安全措施，那麼請看螢幕上的這張表格，你可以看到勞動部現在的規定及實務現況，除了颱風假的成立方式都是由政府來宣布之外，其實真正的關鍵是發不發工資，按照現行的條件來計算，勞動部鼓勵企業即便放了颱風假，還是要給勞工應有的工資，但是僅能做到建議跟建議加發，所謂的建議是如果放颱風假且勞工沒有出勤，那就是希望雇主做做功德發個薪水；如果放颱風假而勞工依然出勤，就做做功德多發一點，但是只是建議性質。我想問一下，以目前勞動部的瞭解，全臺灣這麼多的企業，從大財團到中小企業到微型企業，真的有按照勞動部的建議去發工資或者是加發工資的企業有哪些？"],["何部長佩珊：大型企業有喔。"],["牛委員煦庭：可不可以舉幾個例子？"],["何部長佩珊：我請司長來說明。"],["黃司長維琛：我們跟工商團體在討論的時候他們有提到，比較大型的企業是不扣薪，他們會替員工來體諒這個事情。"],["何部長佩珊：比如？"],["黃司長維琛：事業單位名稱就比較不方便去講。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，今天我們只做政策討論，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這個問題我們有認真的在思考要不要乾脆就讓它入法，既然要保障勞工，應該讓它到位，這個請勞動部先做一下思考，好不好？我理解啦，如果以經濟部的角度來說，我們要發展經濟，這樣做會墊高成本，但政府施政就是這樣嘛，我希望部長可以守住勞動部的本位，就是站在勞工立場當然要這樣子強力主張，有機會往前進的時候，從建議變成應該，我們應該要做嘗試，來做溝通。今天的第一步我希望你先做統整，剛剛講到有些大型企業有做，現在只有最大型的、相對優渥的企業有條件可以發這個東西，可是我想部長應該非常瞭解，臺灣是以中小企業為主，微型企其實是最多的，這件事有沒有機會做突破？又怎麼來做突破？給一些小建議，比如說建議加發工資，我剛剛為什麼要請你們舉例，至少我們要鼓勵願意配合勞動部政策方向的企業，總該標舉一下、獎勵一下吧，對不對？隱惡揚善，從揚善開始嘛，然後逐步往前推，本席是接受用一步一步的方式讓勞權進步的，但是至少要看到進步的方向跟進步的成果。所以第一個，我們希望未來有關颱風假的部分，剛剛我們也講了，這個是為了安全的考量，不純然只是單純的說他今天沒有上班、沒有對價這個問題，希望勞動部針對這件事情有一個檢討跟推動方向，好不好？這是第一個。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，剛剛有滿多人在質詢的時候跟您討論有關薪資的問題，其實依據主計總處的統計，我們的實質薪資開始出現負成長的一個狀況。當然你可以講說這是因為是通貨膨脹或怎麼樣，但是大家要生活、要面對的當然就是要用實質薪資來做計算，這樣才比較貼近真實的狀況。5月17號可能大家都在關注立法院的衝突，但是勞工團體在5月17號有召開記者會，他們有提出了一部分的訴求，我們在今天的質詢過程中跟部長來做個政策對話。其實滿重要的，就是大家希望加班費的費率可以做有效的調漲，現在對於平日加班費費率的規定是，如果延長工作時間2小時就是1.33，再延長2小時就是1.66，如果在一例一休的休息日加班，那就分別是2.33跟2.66，這個有沒有機會再往上調？部長，有沒有接到這樣的訴求？勞動部有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個牽涉到勞基法的修法啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：對、對。"],["何部長佩珊：勞基法的修法就是修一法動全身，這是大工程，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：我同意嘛，所以先做……"],["何部長佩珊：我們來審慎研議，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們先做政策的對話，好不好？但是我希望可以，我想很多的勞工團體也希望看到部長的態度啦，勞動部有沒有打算往這個方向來推動，再給勞工朋友多一點的溫暖，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，第一個是加班費費率提升的問題，我們希望知道勞動部的態度。第二個是加班補休的比例問題，您可以看到這個表格寫得非常清楚，平日加班費1比1.33，休息日加班費是1比2.33，但是加班換補休就是1比1嘛，但是1比1的時候，實務上當勞資雙方在談判的時候，勞方處於弱勢，所以就各種實務的操作、軟硬兼施，就會要求變成加班換補休，勞工本來拿加班費可以拿到1.33、1.66，可是換補休的時候就被迫1比1，那其實是不對的嘛！既然是超時出勤，應該連補休也要比照1.33或1.66，對不對？比如說連續加班3天換4天補休，這樣子比較合理嘛，應該要跟加班費的比例一致嘛，這個同樣牽涉到勞基法的修正，對不對？部長？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這件事情，加班費率的提升跟補休比例的正義，希望勞動部做個政策研討，提出具體的方向，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，今天時間有限，有關試用期的部分，我們用書面的方式提出，也請勞動部提供修法意見，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長辛苦了，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言。","接下來請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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課您過去年輕的時候其實有在勞工運動裡面應該算是有一定的歷練那這個本席這個第一次的質詢跟您討論一下勞工的一些政策希望您不忘初衷可以幫我們的勞工朋友一起來講話我們就直接單刀直入主題"},{"start":38.846,"end":53.587,"text":"第一個是這個今天這個剛剛的新聞今年的第一號颱風即將生成那麼每一次颱風假要不要放假其實都是一個滿大大家都很多尤其是我們基層的勞工其實都非常期待可以多放一天颱風假"},{"start":54.568,"end":76.045,"text":"大家都說台灣的這個過勞狀況其實很嚴重那目前大部分的人都把颱風架有些當成小確幸有些當成喘口氣的這樣的一個機會但北京關心颱風架背後的一個政策的一個細節要跟部長來做一下討論這個照理來講我們會放颱風架不應該是因為小確幸啦其實是應該是注重勞工的安全嘛"},{"start":76.826,"end":92.625,"text":"對嗎?也就是說我不要因為颱風的天災在通勤或者是工作的時候有職業安全的一些危險所以我們要有一個放假的機制部長同意我這樣的說法嗎?應該沒有錯嘛對不對那他既然是勞工為了生命安全的安全措施齁那"},{"start":93.866,"end":110.143,"text":"難道現行的這樣子的一個按照這個表格你可以看到勞動部現在的規定這個除了成立的方式由政府來宣布之外其實真正的關鍵是發不發工資按照現行的條件來計算勞動部鼓勵這個企業即便放了颱風架還是要給這個勞工應有的工資但是"},{"start":113.426,"end":136.398,"text":"只能做到建議跟建議加發所謂的建議就是說如果颱風假這個勞工沒有出勤那就是希望你這個做做工的發個薪水如果颱風假勞工依然出勤就做做工的多發一點但是只是建議性質那我想問一下以目前勞動部的瞭解全台灣這麼多的企業從大財團到中小企業到微型企業"},{"start":137.558,"end":162.428,"text":"真的有按照勞動部的建議去發工資或者是加發工資的企業有哪些?大型企業有喔。各位舉幾個例子。在我們那個跟工商團體他們在討論的時候,那他們有提到說比較大型的企業他們會不扣薪,他們會去替員工來體諒這個事情。"},{"start":165.203,"end":178.481,"text":"事業單位名稱就比較不方便去講沒關係今天我們只是做政策討論好不好因為這個我們認真的在思考要不要讓他乾脆入法就既然要保障勞工應該讓他到位這個請勞動部先做一下思考好不好"},{"start":179.462,"end":194.855,"text":"﹚"},{"start":195.495,"end":215.667,"text":"來做溝通那今天的第一步我希望你先做統整剛剛有講有些大型現在只有最大型的相對優渥的企業有條件可以發這個東西可是台灣其實我想部長應該非常了解啦中小企業為主微型企業其實是最多的那這件事有沒有機會做突破那怎麼來做突破給一點小建議比如說建議加大工資我剛剛為什麼要問舉例"},{"start":217.128,"end":240.058,"text":"至少我要從鼓勵願意配合勞動部政策方向的企業我總該標舉一下、獎勵一下吧。對不對?迎賀揚善從揚善開始然後逐步往前推本期是接受用一步一步的方式讓勞權進步的但是至少要看到進步的方向跟進步的成果所以第一個我們希望未來這個颱風降因為我們也講了這個是為了安全的考量"},{"start":240.618,"end":252.342,"text":"這不純然只是單純說他今天沒有上班沒有對價這個問題希望勞動部針對這件事情有一個檢討跟推動的方向好不好這是第一個第二個這個剛剛有蠻多人今天在質詢的時候跟您討論這個有關薪資的問題那麼其實主計總署的統計其實我們的實質薪資啊實質薪資開始出現負成長的一個狀況當然你可以講說因為是通貨膨脹或怎麼樣"},{"start":264.005,"end":278.504,"text":"但是其實大家要生活要面對的其實當然就是用實質薪資來做計算才是貼近真實狀況的一個狀況的一個比較貼近一個真實的一個狀況那麼5月17雖然大家都關注立法院的這個衝突但是其實勞工團體在5月17有召開記者會的"},{"start":280.667,"end":305.597,"text":"他們有提出了一部分的訴求我們今天在這個質詢的過程中跟部長來做個政策對話其實蠻重要的就是大家希望說這個加班費的費率可以做有效的調漲現在講平日的加班費就是延長工作時間1.33再延長之後就1.66如果在一例休息日加班就是2.33跟2.66有沒有機會再往上調?這個部長有沒有接到這樣的訴求?保安部有沒有這樣的規劃?"},{"start":307.669,"end":326.117,"text":"委員這個好牽涉到勞基法的修法就勞基法的修法就修一法動全身這是大工程我同意嘛先做我們先做政策對話好不好但是我希望可以我想很多的勞工團體也希望看到部長的態度啦"},{"start":326.898,"end":348.36,"text":"勞動部有沒有打算往這方向來推動再給勞工朋友多一點的溫暖好不好這部長第一個是加班費費率的提升問題我們希望知道勞動部的態度第二個是加班補休的比例問題啊您可以看到這個表格寫得非常清楚平時加班費1比1.33休息日加班是1比2.33但是加班換補休啊當然就是1比1嘛"},{"start":348.92,"end":368.689,"text":"那1比1的時候其實很多實務上這個在做勞資雙方在談判的時候勞方處於弱勢所以就各種實務的操作軟硬兼施就要求變成說加班換補休啊那我本來拿加班費我可以拿1.33拿1.66可是我補休的時候被迫1比1啊那其實是不對的嘛"},{"start":369.028,"end":394.437,"text":"既然他是要超時出勤應該連補休也應該比照1.33或1.66對不對比如說這個連續加班3天換4天補休這樣子比較合理嘛要跟加班費的比例要一次嘛這個同樣牽涉到勞基法的修正對不對部長所以這件事情加班費率的提升跟補休比例的這個正義希望勞動部做個政策研討提出具體的方向可以嗎"},{"start":396.22,"end":396.5,"text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員"}]}},{"id":"152909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45370f2e8d17d5ec2455d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e835e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:15:50 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11:25:14","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:25:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:15:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時15分）有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳委員好。"],["吳委員春城：主委好。我有看到你3月份在「自由共和國」發表的「健康臺灣──科技與人文共榮並進」文章，可以看得出來主委是一個有人文思維的科學家，我覺得我們這幾年有一點科技萬能，什麼事情都要找科技、什麼事情都AI，好像AI萬能，然後所有事情包括我們的政府都要AI政府，什麼事情只要掛上科技好像事情就解決了，主委，你認可嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：認可。"],["吳委員春城：認可科技萬能，可以解決所有問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不認可，對不起！"],["吳委員春城：嚇我一跳！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是認可委員提出來的批評。"],["吳委員春城：所以可以看得出來，因為科技需要整合嘛！那我看到這一篇文章也在談健康臺灣，提出三個面向，要有健康的國民、健康的文化，不僅是文化，應該是政策，還有健康的產業。因為這三個面向才是邁向健康臺灣的重要元素，也聯結到不同年齡層的國民迫切期待改善的議題，而且以科技實力來幫助臺灣，以逐步達成的目標。這個事實上是跟我所推動的壯世代不謀而合，主委也是大學校長過來，我們有大學之道，部長，大學之道所指的三個是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在明明德。"],["吳委員春城：在明明德，對！考你國文，來。"],["吳主任委員誠文：在親民，在止於至善。"],["吳委員春城：對嘛！果然是大學校長，這個就是你剛才講的那三個目標，在明明德就是健康的國民，明明德就是明白做人的道理，是嗎？明白國民現在的處境，特別是對一個高齡者，他怎麼自我認知，他是一個無用的人，還是一個有貢獻的人，這叫明明德。再來，在親民就是政府的角色，政府不是在發展經濟，不是在發展科技，是在怎麼樣？在親民，你的人民有什麼需要，有沒有體貼人民的需要。再來，產業的目標是什麼？產業目標不是賺錢，除了賺錢之外要怎麼樣？止於至善，打造一個美好的社會，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：認同。"],["吳委員春城：認同嘛！好，所以要來看一下，這個是國科會幫行政院打造的高齡產業，是高齡科技產業會議去年提出來的，主委，你看一下，不要先看內容，你看那個圖像，想像這兩個人偶是國科會所想像的高齡社會的樣態嗎？你認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還可以再改善。"],["吳委員春城：有改善空間啦！好，目標就是安養晚年嘛！安心、舒適、成就、富足。","再看一下現在的普惠科技，談的大概就是什麼醫院、養老院、藥局、公園、樂齡宅、社區、文藝中心，反正高齡者就是在這些地方，不是要去醫院，就是在醫院的路上，那科技就協助他們在這邊繞來繞去的時候更方便，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不應該是這樣。"],["吳委員春城：但是現在國科會的想像是不是這樣子？好，OK，這個是以前的事情，跟你無關，但是也就是講說國科會是一個整合的單位，整合最重要是策略，策略是什麼？策略最重要的是方向，方向搞錯了，後面所弄的都白搞了，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["吳委員春城：主委認同，好。跟主委講，我來立法院三、四個月，你是新科主委，我也是新科立委，我們一起努力，我也還在學習，但是我非常驚訝每一個部會，臺灣明（2025）年進入超高齡社會，接下來是以全世界最快的速度邁向人口老化、少子化，是一種像斷崖式的墜落，但是我發現所有的部會都沒有警覺、都沒有覺悟，這兩個數字是國發會的資料，1970年臺灣的年齡中位數19.3歲，2040年的年齡中位數52.4歲；1970年65歲以上的高齡者人口2.9%，2040年是30.1%，這是什麼意思？翻天覆地的改變，但是我發現各部會有關高齡政策的制定都活在1970年，用1970年的這個金字塔人口圖在想像我們的高齡政策，所有的部會對高齡的部分幾乎都是荒廢，幾乎所有的經費等都是在衛福部，80%的經費在衛福部，各部會有的也只是配合衛福部插花一下而已，沒有在重視，在這個方面我期待國科會，所以行政院提出的版本就會產生這個樣子，我也問陳建仁院長，我說院長這個是要給你用的，哪一些地方會讓你覺得有需要，他說通通都不需要，我問那你做這個東西給誰用？是啊！我們政府在做的，沒有瞭解這一個高齡世代，現在我們談壯世代是55歲以上，55歲以上現在臺灣有多少人？800萬人，800萬人，竟然沒有政策、沒有方向、沒有產業！","所以未來年輕人也被壓垮了，因為所有的財富在壯世代的手中，三分之二財富在壯世代手中，竟然沒有壯世代產業，沒有這些人的產業，全部的人要去賺年輕人的錢，我都覺得我們扭曲了社會、扭曲了政策嘛！再有什麼樣的科技有什麼用？方向都錯誤。為什麼現在會這樣？因為大家都用銀髮族思維，我要把它翻轉成為壯世代思維，這以後有機會再跟主委好好的來請教，OK，以Maslow的人的需求，我們現在都在生理需求、安全需求這個最低層次啦，就剛才主委講的健康臺灣那三個層次完全都沒有啦，完全沒有！未來我們應該朝向這個層面，你原來普惠的那一個都是最低層次的，應該要努力，科技會讓人沒有距離，讓人更幸福。","所以國科會在引導我們的產業，引導我們關於高齡產業的想像空間，這個新的想像空間太侷限了啦！高齡者現在有800萬人，只有養生、養老、養病，只有往這個方向，事實上這階段是美好的第三人生，臺灣最大的動力、最大的財富在這一塊。所以在這一塊當中，國科會應該要落實高齡科技產業的全面市場需求調查，現在都把它想像只有那一個，整個市場的缺乏。","最後，6月14號國科會要回復本席的提案，我跟萬美玲、洪孟楷委員的提案，也就是國科會應該規劃高齡科技產業的市場需求調查，我到現在還沒有收到。第二個，就是精進高齡科技產業相關計畫及提出專責市場需求系統性的研究方案，要在3個月之內提到教文委員會，這個是6月14號到期。"],["吳主任委員誠文：6月14號，好。"],["吳委員春城：因為你剛來，所以我提醒一下，現在還沒有交過來，所以就拜託主委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員，主委請回。我們接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.759718750000001,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.64409375,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.76096875,"end":43.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.55159375,"end":59.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.64596875,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.37471875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.70784375000001,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.96221875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.02534375,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.52784375,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.41221875000001,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.31846875000002,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.05471875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.84471875,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.93034375000002,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.43221875,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18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有一點科技萬能啊 什麼事情都要找科技 什麼事情都要AI 好像AI萬能然後所有事情包括我們政府都要AI政府 什麼事情只要掛上一個科技 好像事情就解決了 諸位你認可嗎"},{"start":60.717,"end":64.818,"text":"提出三個面向要有健康的國民健康的文化不僅是文化應該是政策"},{"start":90.1,"end":105.719,"text":"那健康的產業因為這三個面向才是邁向健康台灣的重要元素也要連結不同年齡層的國民這個議題那用科技的實力來幫助台灣逐步達成目標我想"},{"start":106.8,"end":117.205,"text":"這一個事實上是跟我在推動的壯世代不某而合。這一個主委是大學校長過來。我們有大學之道。大學之道三個是什麼?"},{"start":125.495,"end":132.059,"text":"這就是你剛才講的那三個目標在明明的就是健康的國民明明的就是明白做人的道理"},{"start":145.786,"end":164.795,"text":"明白現在的國民我們現在處境裡是特別是對一個高齡者他怎麼自我認知他是一個無用的人還是一個有貢獻的人這叫明明的在親民就是政府的角色政府不是在發展經濟不是在發展科技是在怎麼樣在親民"},{"start":165.879,"end":166.059,"text":"解凍案7案"},{"start":185.177,"end":207.423,"text":"這是國科會幫我們行政院打造的高齡產業高齡科技產業會議去年提出來的那個主委你看一下不要先看內容你看那個圖像想像的就是這兩個人偶是國科會所想像的高齡社會的樣態嗎?你認同嗎?"},{"start":211.724,"end":239.537,"text":"還可以再改善有改善空間啦好所有的就是安養晚年嘛安心舒適成就富足OK再看一下那現在的普惠科技現在談的大概就是什麼醫院、養老院、藥局、公園、樂齡宅、社區、文藝中心反正呢高齡者就是在這一些地方不是在要去醫院就是在醫院的路上那科技就協助他們在這邊繞來繞去的時候更方便是不是"},{"start":240.742,"end":243.223,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":270.509,"end":274.694,"text":"跟著我講說我這個來立法院三、四個月"},{"start":276.209,"end":302.064,"text":"你是新科主委,我也是新科立委這個我們一起努力我也來在學習但是呢我非常驚訝到每一個部會台灣明年進入超高齡社會2025年接下來是以全世界最快的速度邁向人口老化少子化是像斷崖式的一種墜落但是我發現所有的部會都沒有警覺都沒有覺悟"},{"start":305.545,"end":308.568,"text":"這兩個數字1970年我們台灣的年齡中位數這是國發會的資料19.3歲2011年年齡中位數52.4歲1970年65歲上的高齡者人口2.9%"},{"start":327.161,"end":350.541,"text":"2014年是30.1%這什麼意思翻天覆地翻天覆地的改變但是呢我發現我們各部會有關高齡政策的制定都活在1970年用1970年這個金字塔的人口圖在想像我們的高齡政策說的部會對高齡的幾乎都是方會"},{"start":352.259,"end":380.37,"text":"幾乎所有的經費都是在衛福部80%的經費在衛福部各部位有的也是配合衛福部差花一下而已沒有在重視在這一個方向我期待這個國科會來接下來所以行政院提出的版本就會產生這個樣子我也問陳建仁院長他說院長這個是要給你用的你哪一些地方會讓你有需要他說通通都不需要"},{"start":382.13,"end":382.25,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":397.742,"end":425.658,"text":"八百萬人竟然沒有政策沒有方向沒有產業所以整個未來年輕人也被壓垮了因為所有的財富在這些人在壯世代的手中三分之二財富在壯世代手中竟然沒有壯世代產業沒有這些人的產業全部的人要去賺年輕人的錢扭曲的社會扭曲的政策嘛再有什麼樣的科技有什麼用"},{"start":427.028,"end":429.792,"text":"以後有機會再跟主委好好地來請教。"},{"start":444.727,"end":472.006,"text":"但是這個可以講的我們現在這個馬斯洛的這個人的需求我們現在都在生理系的安全需求這個最低層次啦就剛才這個朱偉祥健康台灣那三個層次完全都沒有啦完全沒有就是未來我們應該朝向這個層面你原來普惠的那一個都是低層次的最低層次的應該要努力的這種科技會讓人沒有距離讓人更幸福"},{"start":473.211,"end":487.483,"text":"所以這裡對整個國會在引導我們的產業引導我們關於高齡產業的想像空間那這個現在想像的空間太侷限了啦就是高齡者只有800萬人只有養老養生養老養病啦"},{"start":494.429,"end":514.945,"text":"只要往這個方向事實上他是美好的第三人生台灣最大的動力最大的財富在這一塊所以呢在這一塊當中的國科會應該要落實高齡科技產業的全面市場的需求調查現在像相都把它想像只有那一個啦整個市場的缺乏"},{"start":516.96,"end":538.065,"text":"最後呢這個6月44號國科會要回覆本席在這裡對國科會提出的這個提案我跟萬美玲跟洪孟楷委員在這裡的提案也就國科會應該規劃高齡科技產業的市場需求調查我到現在沒有收到那第二條就是"},{"start":539.305,"end":560.194,"text":"就是精進高齡科技產業相關計畫及提出專者市場需求系統性的研究方案要在三個月之內來提到教育委員會這個6月14日到期因為你剛來所以我提醒一下因為現在還沒有交過來所以就拜託主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531632c5c5c7566eaaf1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:14:40 - 11:23:48","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":548,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:23:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:14:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時14分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請李主委？"],["主席：請李主委。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。主委，還是先從關鍵的問題來請教一下，公平交易法事實上有一些名詞的定義，但是這些名詞的定義並沒有一個清楚的分層數字的展現，所以我想要請教主委，就完全競爭跟所謂的寡占市場跟獨占市場這3個要怎麼區分？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平交易法有定義嘛！處於一個沒有競爭的狀態是獨占。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有競爭，所以它占有市場是100%就是獨占？"],["李主任委員鎂：不一定是100%，就是看在市場上處於沒人可以跟它競爭……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有競爭，那如果對手太弱，對手可能只占5%，它占了95%或者占了90%，這樣算獨占嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果到95%，一般來看應該已經是獨占。"],["蔡委員易餘：95%，那90%算嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是用50%，用50%來看就很可能是獨占了。"],["蔡委員易餘：超過50%就獨占了？那定義上獨占超過50%就算了喔？那寡占呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：它是幾個面向，這是幾個面向。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，我們先不要管太多面向。"],["李主任委員鎂：最主要就是沒有競爭狀態就是獨占。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們先用直白的競爭的角度來思考、來看這個法條的所謂定義好不好？所以獨占是指，主委意思是說可能在50%以上就是沒有競爭就會變獨占？"],["李主任委員鎂：有可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：有可能，那寡占呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：寡占在公平法對什麼叫做寡占沒有定義，那我就看它市場上有幾家。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，因為沒有定義，所以我就不知道，所以我想要在這個質詢的時候請教主委，到底什麼是寡占？"],["李主任委員鎂：要從每個行業來看，譬如家數，就是一般來講家數不多……"],["蔡委員易餘：哇，我怎麼問這個你們都好緊張喔，這不是公平會最ABC的問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如電信事業，我們把它認定是一個寡占市場，所以……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你們當時對所謂台灣之星跟台灣大哥大的時候……"],["李主任委員鎂：就是在電信事業的結合……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們有認定他們是寡占嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以電信事業就是幾家的龍頭企業，他們可能就變寡占。好，像兩年前也有很精彩的零售市場的併購行為，包括統一吃下家樂福，包括全聯吃下了大潤發，這樣的話，他們在零售市場裡面，他們算是寡占嗎？他們分別吃下了……"],["李主任委員鎂：零售市場……"],["蔡委員易餘：一哥跟二哥分別吃下了一些小老弟，他們把小老弟排除掉了，有可能會變成寡占嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：全聯跟大潤發併，我們當時算它的市占率其實才三十幾，臺灣從事零售行業的業者是相當多……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！我知道很多嘛，可是……"],["李主任委員鎂：應該還不算到寡占。"],["蔡委員易餘：畢竟它是大哥啊，全聯在零售是……"],["李主任委員鎂：當時算出來是三十幾的市占率。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以三十幾嘛！所以你還認為說他們還不到寡占？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個定義就不清楚啦！回到了今天大家關心的，所以現在二哥也是要再吃掉一哥，Uber Eats要吃掉foodpanda，以剛剛主委你講的，可能到了50%的市場，它就已經到獨占了，這樣聽起來，你認為在百分之三十幾的時候還不構成寡占，因為你說全聯吃掉大潤發後占百分之三十幾，所以你認為它還是處在一個完全競爭的市場，還沒有到寡占，所以看起來所謂寡占就是在所謂百分之三十幾到五十這個range囉，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不同的產業有不同的情況，其實很難用家數或者是比例，還要看它整個市場競爭的狀況。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啦！可是總是有一些比較直白的認定嘛！因為大家消費者都是這樣去看到底我們生活的環境裡面遇到這個產業，這個產業有沒有處在壟斷或者是寡占的規模，我想大家心裡都有數。主委，以你這樣來看的話，這樣的外送平台，他們到底是兩個加起來會變獨占還是寡占？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩個加起來市占率那麼高，應該可以到獨占的情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：獨占了嘛，兩個加起來就獨占了。既然這樣的話，這兩個，一哥、二哥合併後會變成獨占的市場，那是不是未來所有的交易條件，都是由這一個新的Uber Eats來訂？因為它吃掉了foodpanda，所以它就可以訂所有的交易條件？"],["李主任委員鎂：不排除有這個可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：不排除嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為它現在就有在定價，結合以後它會怎麼定價，這個要再觀察。"],["蔡委員易餘：再請教，因為他們這兩家公司，外送平臺都已經運作有一些年份了，所以過去他們在經營的時候，自然有各自對商家的承諾，或者是他們對於外送員，也有一些福利。他們併購之後，過去的條件是否會依然存在，這個也是大家想要問的一個問題，這個公平會有在觀察嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩家公司結合，不管是在公司法或是其他的法律，都會有一些權利義務如何交接的問題，就公平會來講，我們審查的是對競爭秩序的影響，所以這個面向會包括將來的市場集中度、併購方將來抬價的能力，還有交易相對人，我們剛剛提到外送員、餐廳或者是消費者，跟它抗衡的力量……"],["蔡委員易餘：我舉例，過去很多外送員如果是品行，或者是服務態度不佳的，可能Uber Eats跟foodpanda都有各自處罰外送員，比方說禁止僱用，他們可能有怎樣的一個狀況會有一些禁止僱用的情形，或者是有一些商家，他們可能是不合作的，如果併購了之後呢？以前被foodpanda禁止僱用的會回來嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：這也涉及到一些勞動條件。"],["蔡委員易餘：這是他們自己的條件，所以這部分都不在你們的考量範圍？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會考慮到這一些外送員過去……"],["蔡委員易餘：他們不用把這些狀況跟你們報告嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說我們這兩家併購了，我們未來要怎麼運作，這件事情也是要讓你們知道吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：需要瞭解的我們都會去瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：這一項需要瞭解嗎？。"],["李主任委員鎂：將來外送員的部分，我們除了會徵詢利害關係人、外送員的意見，也會跟勞動部跨機關來交換意見。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你除了徵詢外送員意見，我覺得你最主要的是要先問清楚，過去這兩家所有的權利義務關係，包括跟商家，包括跟外送員，他們的權利關係在併購後會變得怎樣，他們要跟你們講嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們都會通盤去瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：他們如果沒有跟你們講，你們只說會看他們的比例，只要看他們市場的競爭會不會影響到，這樣聽起來，你只是要看那些，這樣說起來，他們就是獨占啊，像你說的是獨占了，那我覺得我也不用在這裡再多講了，如果它就是獨占，我覺得社會比較不希望像這個跟民生這麼有關的東西，結果後來是獨占市場，我覺得這個社會比較不期待這樣，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，結合以後如果變成獨占市場，我們在這個評估上一定會很審慎來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊，像你說的，這就已經是獨占市場了，我覺得這件事情你們要審慎評估，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，也謝謝李鎂主委。","接下來請陳超明、陳超明、陳超明委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另外，林岱樺委員、陳冠廷委員、陳超明委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","羅智強","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","黃捷","蔡易餘","林岱樺","陳冠廷","陳超明"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及\n對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬\n具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳\n銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.41784375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.15159375,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.24346875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.68159375,"end":22.609718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.33409375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.869718750000004,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.35721875,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.406593750000006,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.34534375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.23971875000001,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.96034375,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.84596875000001,"end":79.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.59659375000001,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.41846875,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.32909375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.18534375,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.18034375,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.42471875000001,"end":103.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.71534375,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.65159375,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.03534375000001,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.19534375,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.68471875,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":110.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.62346875,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.69909375,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.12034375000002,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.70596875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.16846875000002,"end":148.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.06659375,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.96096875,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.73721875,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.27284375000002,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.39096875,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.30159375000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.42784375000002,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.62534375,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.83659375000002,"end":196.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.76346875000002,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.93221875,"end":203.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.86409375000002,"end":207.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.46534375000002,"end":219.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.86159375000003,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.58721875,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.35034375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.82659375,"end":227.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.42096875000001,"end":231.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.18034375000002,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.81659375,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.33096875,"end":242.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.38096875000002,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.65346875000003,"end":258.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.2140937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先用直白的競爭的這個角度來思考來看這個法條的所謂定義好不好所以獨佔是指你的主委意思說可能在50%以上那可能就是沒有競爭就會變獨佔有可能有可能那寡佔呢?"},{"start":130.148,"end":132.869,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易"},{"start":150.148,"end":151.589,"text":"兩年前也有很"},{"start":178.848,"end":179.649,"text":"二）本院委員蔡易餘"},{"start":199.863,"end":219.962,"text":"一哥跟二哥分別吃下了一些小老弟那他們把小老弟排除掉了有可能會變成寡占嗎因為前年跟大陸發病我們當時的算他的市占率其實才30幾那台灣的零售從事零售行業的業者是相當多當然啦我知道很多嘛可是畢竟他是大哥啊那當時算出來是"},{"start":223.005,"end":242.601,"text":"三十幾啦,三十幾的市長。所以三十幾嘛,所以你還認為說他們還不到寡占啦。是。所以這個定義就不清楚啦。那回到了今天大家關心的啦,回到了。那所以現在二哥也是要再吃掉一哥。Uber Eats要吃掉Fu Panda。"},{"start":243.652,"end":258.148,"text":"那以剛剛主委你講的可能到了50%的一個市場他可能就已經是到獨占了那寡占可能就是像聽起來你認為在三十幾%的時候還不構成寡占因為你說全年吃掉"},{"start":259.929,"end":274.854,"text":"大論發大論發在三十幾趴所以你認為說他還是屬在一個競爭完全競爭的市場還沒有到寡占所以看起來所謂寡占就是在所謂三十幾趴到五十趴這個任局囉是嗎這個要"},{"start":280.168,"end":307.354,"text":"不同的產業有不同的情況,其實很難用加數或者是比例,要看它整個市場競爭的狀況。總是有一些比較直白的認定,因為大家消費者都是這樣去看說,到底我們生活的環境裡面遇到這個產業,這個產業它有沒有處在一個壟斷,或者是一個寡占的一個規模,這個我想大家心裡都有數。"},{"start":308.354,"end":337.273,"text":"那主委你這樣來看的話那這樣的一個外送平台他們到底是兩個加起來會變獨佔還是寡佔?兩個加起來市佔率那麼高應該可以到獨佔的情況兩個加起來就獨佔了好啊如果既然這樣的話就是說這兩個一哥二哥並一哥會變成獨佔的一個市場那是不是未來所有的交易的一個條件都是由這個新的"},{"start":338.959,"end":367.18,"text":"這個Uber Eats因為他吃掉了Foodpanda所以他就可以訂所有的交易條件不排除有這個可能不排除因為他現在就有在訂價那結合以後他會怎麼訂價這個要再觀察好那再請教就是說那因為他們這兩家公司外送平台他們都已經運作已經超過有一些年份了所以他們自然有他們各自過去他們在經營的時候有各自的"},{"start":367.98,"end":385.125,"text":"對商家的承諾或者是他們對於外送員也有部分的一些福利那他們併購之後過去的條件是否會依然存在這個也是大家想要問的一個問題那這個是公平會有在觀察的嗎"},{"start":386.614,"end":411.426,"text":"對兩家公司結合不管是在公司法或是這個其他的這個法律都會有一些權利義務如何交接的問題那就公平會來講我們審查的是對競爭秩序的影響所以這個面向會包括將來的市場集中度還有這個併購方將來這個台價的能力還有交易相對的我們剛剛提到這個外送員餐廳或者是消費者我舉例我舉例"},{"start":413.307,"end":441.354,"text":"過去很多外送員如果他外送員是有品性或者是他們服務態度不佳的那可能在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都有各自去處罰外送員去比方說禁止僱用他們可能有怎樣的一個狀況會有一些禁止僱用或者是有一些商家他們可能就可能就合作就是是不合作的好那如果併購了之後勒"},{"start":442.486,"end":451.541,"text":"那普遍大以前禁止僱用的會回來嗎?這是也涉及到一些勞動條件就是他們自己條件所以這部分都不在你們的"},{"start":452.694,"end":477.813,"text":"你們的考量範圍我們會考慮到這一些外送員過去他們不用把這些狀況跟你們報告嗎就是說我們這兩家併購了那麼未來要怎麼運作這件事也要讓你們知道我們會需要了解我們都會去了解這需要了解嗎我們將來跟外送員的部分除了我們會爭取利害關係人外送員的意見也會跟勞動部跨機關來做交換意見"},{"start":479.614,"end":495.274,"text":"對你除了遵循外送人意見我覺得你最主要要先問清楚這兩家到底他們過去他們所有的權益物關係包括跟商家包括跟外送人他們的權益關係在於他們如果併購"},{"start":497.56,"end":509.785,"text":"會變成怎樣?他們要跟你們說嘛!是,這個我們都會通常去瞭解。他們如果沒有跟你們說,你們跟他們說我們要看他們的比例。我們要看他們的市場的競爭會不會影響到,這樣聽起來,你如果要看那裡,"},{"start":515.031,"end":515.692,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":532.614,"end":533.535,"text":"蔡易餘委員、李美竺委員"}]}},{"id":"152907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453174f65221dead6079f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e838c3f6bbd0a8feaf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:14:19 - 11:20:06","影片長度":"00:05:47","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":347,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:20:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:14:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時14分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長早。我想今天大家都很關心外送平臺的問題，我想問一下部長，你認為外送員是不是勞工？"],["何部長佩珊：他當然是勞工啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：但是他是非典型的勞工，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：可以這麼說。"],["黃委員珊珊：非典型的勞工現在會越來越多，但是我們一直都只有一套法律，叫做勞動基準法，所以常常會有假承攬真僱傭的事實。同樣的，外送員不用朝九晚五打卡，但是他們是被app24小時監控著，甚至顧客的評價比一般的僱傭更嚴格，也就是這種非傳統的勞工其實已經存在新興的社會裡面有很多不同的面向，我們只用一套勞動基準法，能不能適用所有的勞工？"],["何部長佩珊：確實有疏漏啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：若他發生職災怎麼辦？"],["何部長佩珊：外送員有加入職業工會，他會加入我們的職災保護法。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，他用職災，但他們就是無固定雇主的意思嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是他用工會的方式。我現在的問題是，其實在這麼多年，尤其現在已經將近14萬個外送員，他們各自不同的權利義務都是用契約關係，因為我們來自臺北市，臺北市很早就訂定了外送平台業者管理自治條例，全國各縣市也都有訂定各自的相關條例。部長，我只想問你，為什麼中央不肯訂定專法？"],["何部長佩珊：應該不是不肯訂定專法，而是……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼一直沒有訂定專法？專法在上一屆的台灣民眾黨賴香伶委員很早就提了，因為他也是臺北市的勞動局長。專法裡面其實非常重要，它有幾個面向，第一個，要有傷害保險，不只是雇主，平臺業者也要出傷害保險的錢；第二個，要有職災的通報；第三個，要有教育的訓練；最重要的是，要揭露所有跟勞動有關的條件，包括他們的抽成、他們的酬金不可以片面的變動。這些在地方政府相關的自治條例裡面都規定了，這些東西並不困難，中央訂定專法也不困難，因為既然不能用勞動基準法規範外送員，所以成立一個專法可能是唯一的方法。","我要說的是，如果我們全部都糾結在我們只能有一套勞動基準法，我們是沒有辦法面對未來多元新興的社會型態，更何況將來的工作永遠都有所謂的非典，現在的人不上班，在家工作，不打卡、不進辦公室，他一樣是僱傭，以後很多類型的工作都會碰到這樣的狀況。所以我希望外送員會成為臺灣第一個認知他是勞工，也給他相對的保障，給他一個專法，更何況各地方政府都已經訂定了專法，這個專法只是要求更公開、更透明、更有保障，部長，你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我當然非常同意委員用一個必須要有法令的形式來保護外送員，這個我絕對認同。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是之前所有的人在這些所謂公開的公共政策網路參與平臺上面爭取，然後行政院的回復是，因為涉及不同部門主管職責，要審慎研議。一審慎研議，又過了4年，所以……"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望新的部長有新的想法。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我來努力，可是重點就是要對外送員有幫助啦！主要是他們彼此之間的共識，甚至都還沒有辦法完全凝聚。"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼地方政府已經擬了？表示我們規定的是最基本平臺業者的責任，而不是外送員個人的意見，我們給他們最基本的保障，就比照勞動基準法一樣……"],["何部長佩珊：好，我來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我剛剛講的，給他傷害保險吧！給他職災通報吧！給他教育訓練吧！"],["何部長佩珊：這些都有。"],["黃委員珊珊：給他平臺揭露資訊公開透明吧！最重要的是，他的薪酬不可以片面變更或降低，而不經過相關的程序，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：對，當然，委員，其實前3樣都有。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們如果從勞基法的角度去面對，不要只是糾結在我們只有一部勞動基準法，而是我們將來非典工作有各種不同的面向，全世界都在面對新的狀態。"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員解釋，您這個關心我非常肯定，是這樣的，主要是外送員要跟平臺談判，要有助於他們跟平臺談判，那麼這個專法到底有沒有幫助，這個真的是他們之間彼此大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：到目前為止，在六都的城市裡面，至少外送員不用擔心自己出狀況的時候沒有人可以求助啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是啦！當然、當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在就是變成他們沒有談判能力，所以只好靠地方政府去幫忙，如果中央政府願意伸出援手，他們不會沒有談判能力。"],["何部長佩珊：對，所以我們現在一定要盡全力來幫助他們談判。"],["黃委員珊珊：好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想捍衛勞工權益跟促進勞資和諧是勞動部最基本的責任，所以捍衛勞工權益也是我們對新部長的期許。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言。在這邊作以下宣告：稍後於陳亭妃委員質詢結束後，處理臨時提案1案。","現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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的勞工現在會越來越多而且我們但是我們一直都只有一套法律叫做勞動基準法所以常常會有假、承攬、徵、雇佣的事實那同樣的外送員不用朝九晚五打卡但是他們是被APP24小時監控著甚至顧客的評價"},{"start":47.415,"end":70.06,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":72.041,"end":91.681,"text":"委員會加入職業工會,會加入我們職災保護法?他們就沒有無固定雇主的意思,也就是用工會的方式我現在的問題是,其實在這麼多年尤其現在已經將近14萬個外送員他們各自不同的權利義務都是用契約關係,但是"},{"start":94.025,"end":108.611,"text":"在因為我們來自臺北市我們臺北市很早就訂了外送員管理資質條例那全省各縣市全國各縣市也都有訂各自的相關的條例部長我只想問你為什麼中央不肯訂專法"},{"start":110.539,"end":127.759,"text":"不是說應該不是不肯定專法為什麼一直沒有定專法專法在上一個上一屆的臺灣民眾黨賴香林委員很早就提了因為他也是臺北市的勞動局長對專法裡面其實非常重要他有幾個面向第一個要有傷害保險"},{"start":128.96,"end":150.691,"text":"顧主要用不管是顧主平台業者要出傷害保險的錢第二個要有職災的通報第三個要有教育的訓練最重要的是要揭露所有跟勞動有關的條件包括他們的抽成他們的酬金不可以片面的變動這些在地方政府相關的自治條裡面都規定了"},{"start":151.571,"end":162.677,"text":"這些東西並不困難中央定專法也不困難因為你既然不能用勞動基準法規範外送員成立一個專法可能是唯一的方法"},{"start":163.53,"end":181.904,"text":"我要說的是如果我們全部都在糾結在我們只能有一套勞動基準法我們是沒有辦法面對未來多元新興的社會形態更何況將來的工作永遠都有所謂的非典現在的人不上班在家工作不打卡"},{"start":182.825,"end":206.018,"text":"不進辦公室他一樣是僱傭以後很多類型的工作都會碰到這樣的狀況所以外送員我希望他會成為臺灣第一個認知他是勞工也給他相對保障給他一個專法更何況各地方政府都已經訂了專法這個專法只是要求更公開更透明更有保障部長你同意嗎"},{"start":207.058,"end":233.555,"text":"我當然這個非常同意委員這個用一個必須要一個法律的形式來保護外送員但是這個我覺得之前所有的人在這些所謂的公開的相關的平台上面公共政策網路參與平台上面爭取然後我們的行政院回覆是因為涉及不同部門主管者要審慎研議一審慎研議又過了四年"},{"start":234.415,"end":259.985,"text":"所以我希望新的部長有新的想法是我來努力可是重點就是說要對外送員這個有幫助啦主要是他們彼此之間的共識甚至都還沒有辦法完全離聚所以為什麼地方政府已經離了表示我們只規定最基本平台業者的責任而不是外送員個人的意見我們給他最基本的保障就比照勞動基準法一樣"},{"start":261.826,"end":284.808,"text":"剛剛講的﹖給他傷害保險吧﹖給他職災通報吧﹖給他教育訓練吧﹖給他平台揭露資訊公開透明吧﹖最重要的是他的薪酬不可以片面變更或降低而不經過相關的程序對吧對當然委員其實前三項都有我們如果從勞基法的角度我們去"},{"start":285.629,"end":287.131,"text":"我跟委員解釋齁您這個關係我非常肯定而是這樣"},{"start":302.347,"end":329.761,"text":"主要是外送員要跟平台談判要有助於他們跟平台談判那麼這個專法到底有沒有幫助這個是真的是他們之間彼此至少目前為止在這個六大都的城市裡面至少外送員不用擔心自己出狀況的時候沒有人求助現在就是變成他們沒有談判能力所以只好靠地方政府去幫忙如果中央政府願意伸出援手他們不會沒有談判能力"},{"start":330.501,"end":330.781,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊"}]}},{"id":"152906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453982b335000b340fd5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e832f620ca07494474b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:02:50 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11:15:30","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":760,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:15:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:02:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。剛上任的賴清德總統在就職演說的時候提到我們要進軍全球的太空產業，並從積極發展通訊相關的中低軌道衛星來開始，太空中心的吳宗信主任在近期受訪有進一步指出，希望臺灣能發展衛星的製造跟火箭的發射等服務，而不只是受限在遙測與氣象方面的領域，從賴總統跟吳主任的決心，我們可以看出臺灣在太空科技躋身世界、航向宇宙，相信指日可待。在國科會的業務報告裡有寫逐年編列預算，投入太空的相關計畫，到2031年加碼到400億以上，本席想瞭解，到底什麼時候要提出具體的工作計畫？工作計畫的內容、方向又是什麼？是不是在下個會期審預算的時候，我們就可以優先看到比較細部的工作計畫或者優先的工作計畫？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，的確太空科技的發展對我們國家非常重要，我們要利用這樣的機會建立自己的太空科技跟產業，這對我們的國防以及民間發展都很重要，所以我們未來的經費會逐年增加，而逐年增加的經費來源也要基於我們現有優勢產業的發展，能夠增加我們的經濟實力，獲得稅收，提升我們的預算，才有辦法支持太空科技的發展，這個我們會同步進行。未來第二期期程的確切發展，我會跟太空中心主任再討論，因為我今天下午就是排定到太空中心，他們會跟我做業務報告，我們會詳細討論時程。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以下個會期審預算的時候就會看到優先的太空計畫嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們希望可以。"],["林委員宜瑾：可以嘛？好。另外，本席在去年11月審國科會預算的時候，那時候吳政忠主委有提出研議設置太空發展基金的可能，因此國科會主委有說可以好好研議，所以我們也要求六個月內提出可行性的研議計畫，六個月到現在其實也到了。請問主委，有關設置太空發展基金的可行性研議報告，我們什麼時候可以收到？"],["吳主任委員誠文：很抱歉，我不知道有這件事……"],["林委員宜瑾：是不是太空阿伯會比較清楚？"],["陳處長國樑：跟委員報告一下，現在太空中心內部有在做這方面的研議，但是跟委員報告，太空基金畢竟是基金，它屬於特種基金，特種基金要符合相關的基金法規，在行政院有這個規定，所以一般來講還要經過行政院的同意之後，這個基金才有辦法設立。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，當初審預算的時候就要求六個月提出書面報告，那時候主委也有答應。"],["吳主任宗信：我們儘速提供一個初步的可行性報告……"],["林委員宜瑾：好不好？至少是可行性的研議，我沒有說你一定要設置，因為還是要院裡頭答應，可是你們可行性的方向、研議的書面報告……"],["吳主任宗信：我們會從法制還有實務上為什麼……"],["林委員宜瑾：沒錯！再來，我們是不是可以像日本一樣有個所謂的宇宙戰略基金？在新政府的新內閣願景下，我們是否也有這樣的可能性？宇宙戰略基金。"],["吳主任委員誠文：宇宙戰略基金……"],["林委員宜瑾：我們要有這種宏大的想法，發展太空產業就是要這樣。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我不敢隨便亂講，我會瞭解一下，看看有沒有這個可能性。對於委員的期許，這是一個很偉大的構想，我們會研議一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。我們看到國科會最近幾個月有陸續去澳洲、法國進行交流跟簽署一些合作協議，展現我們跟外國進行科技交流的積極，太空中心吳主任也跟工研院共同率團去美國，參加國際太空衛星展會，也有策展，增加臺灣太空技術的國際能見度。日前印度的智庫觀察家研究基金會也有指出，印度應與臺灣提升太空領域的合作，因為臺灣展現出技術合作夥伴多元化的意願，請問主委，除了印度的智庫肯定臺灣，也願意讓我們跟印度有太空技術交流的可能以外，我們還可以跟哪些國家有太空技術交流的合作？在具體內容上，例如衛星的製造、火箭的發射等等，主委怎麼看？除了印度現在說要跟我們交流合作，我們還可以跟哪些國家積極做一些太空交流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為太空科技牽涉到非常敏感的技術，在各個國家應該都屬於一些保護的科技項目，而臺灣在起步當中，所以可以合作的國家，我們當然希望愈多愈好，只要是對臺灣友善的國家，有機會能夠跟我們合作互補的，我們可以學習，對方也可以互利，在這種狀態之下，我們都不排除。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以就要積極去爭取。"],["吳主任委員誠文：積極去接觸。"],["林委員宜瑾：接下來想跟主委瞭解我們臺南的南科三期，南科今年1到2月的營業額已經超車竹科，有兩千七百多億，想必南科三期的擴建會帶來更高的產值，並在半導體也好，智慧機械、精準健康還有新興科技產業的引進之下，提升臺灣高科技產業的世界競爭力。在擴建工程上，目前的開發工程在報告書上寫第一期正在施作中，第二期即將決標，請教以現在一、二期的進度來看，有沒有把握在原定的2026年完工？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該沒有問題，我們南科管理局蘇局長非常能幹。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，就會如期如質地完工。就永續發展的部分，我還是想請教一下，提升南科事業廢棄物的再利用率到底有什麼樣的方式？我看報告書是要興建掩埋場，除了這個以外，有沒有其他對於事業廢棄物的處理方式？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們南科現在最重要的廠商就是台積電，它的產值在南科已經超過八成，我們在南科園區裡面正在建造零廢製造的設備，邀請相關的廠商進駐，跟台積電一起協助事業廢棄物的再利用率可以達到百分之百，也就是零廢，在往這個目標前進，目前我們三期擴建的事業廢棄物再利用率已經超過九成了。"],["林委員宜瑾：超過九成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以等於是真正需要掩埋的事業廢棄物……"],["吳主任委員誠文：很少了，已經很低了。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，所以我們在南科三期裡面其實是有一座掩埋場的規劃嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。最後想跟主委聊聊，您昨天在國科會的媒體見面會中，充滿自信說要3個月內以產業數位化為內容提出跨部會方案，剛剛也有很多委員垂詢，拚3個月有感的政績啦！我想以你的專長是電機資訊工程，當然會致力於臺灣的半導體及AI技術，所以想請教數位治理及AI應用涉及那麼多面向，在你的規劃中、在你的腦袋中，你會優先在這3個月提出哪些有感的政策？我知道你是說3個月後，可是你是不是現在可以提供一些方向？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的目標是先協助臺灣社會需求面很重要的產業發展，因為現在大家關注的就是，我們高科技產業發展得很好，但是怎麼樣利用我們高科技的優勢來協助其他產業，包含我在媒體面前也舉了一個例子，就是我們的工具機業者，工具機業者現在面對對岸的競爭，其實生存非常不容易，我們希望能夠逐漸轉成真正的智慧設備，也協助其他製造業可以同步發展，這個就是利用我們的科技實力，包含半導體很重要，一定要進來，還有我們的資通訊、AI技術都要進來，這個是立即有產業需求、有民間需求，我們會先去推動。另外一個就是在健康臺灣的願景之下，在醫療照護、健康、大健康產業的發展，也很需要我們的高科技產業來協助，這兩個方向我們會先去規劃。"],["林委員宜瑾：哇！非常好。因為我們的傳統產業其實還是我們臺灣的基底，所以如果能引用高科技，數位AI這種高科技來協助傳統產業的升級，讓傳統產業可以跟高科技無縫接軌，我覺得這是非常好的，不然未來高科技一直發展，可是傳統產業還是一直用人力為主的方式在製造的話，其實會有落差，所以我覺得主委你這個想法非常好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然剛剛你說的健康也是一樣，因為我覺得未來看能不能發展到不用走到醫院去看病，我們可以透過遠端技術，現在其實就有了，就是怎麼樣把它更高科技化讓很多人對身體的照護更方便。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員的見解非常好，我們正好就是想要發展從醫療院所照顧傷病患者，將來其實是要減低他的負擔，希望居家不但可以做照護，還可以做簡單的醫療，這個就需要AI來協助，把智慧化醫療能夠推廣到居家、到社區……"],["林委員宜瑾：到生活。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以用更少的人力，甚至是我們的家人就可以利用高科技的協助，跟醫院的遠端結合，做很好的醫療及照護行為。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主委"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員，請主委回座。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：我們接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9715937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.30471875,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.793468750000001,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.657843750000001,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.31159375,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.84721875,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":31.789718750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and Foodpanda這個"},{"start":28.191,"end":52.76,"text":"合併了之後會變成是一個獨佔市場的一個局面那我等一下也要去經濟委員會問一下公平會但是呢今天在我們胃環就是要就叫我們何部長在勞動權益上這些外送平台的外送人員我知道呢從過去的許部長到現在我們已經喝咖啡然後開了一些座談會議開了好幾次好像五次還六次對不對對那"},{"start":54.241,"end":57.943,"text":"委員現在發生的一個新的形式就是他們提出合併那麼其實他們提出合併的過程必須政府機關審查"},{"start":75.071,"end":75.632,"text":"一定要的,是是是"},{"start":91.091,"end":108.355,"text":"現在正在經濟委員會我看到公平會主委他的態度推脫了那呢也沒有堅定的一個立場而且呢都推給呢目前的真的收件要求兩大平台來補件那未來的都推給這個審議委員會那我認為我們作為這個政府機關的第一個公權力要拿出來第二個呢"},{"start":114.436,"end":120.901,"text":"對於各方的一個利益權益意見我們都要做一個強烈的主張主張什麼第一個維護勞權外送人員的勞動權益跟他的安全第二個我們對於這個兩大平台的合併之後的一個市場變成獨佔"},{"start":132.91,"end":135.112,"text":"這樣子一個經濟模式對於消費者的權益對於餐飲業小吃店小店家的一個權益我覺得這個都是政府該跨部會去做的事情絕對不是說那是審議委員會的事所以部長要硬起來"},{"start":149.167,"end":177.81,"text":"要主張要主動去要求公平會在審議的過程裡面我們勞動部對於外送平台的一個外送人員的一個權益一定要保障一定要發出聲音拜託部長第二個我發現了一個對你的期許就是我們法規的運用要確保勞工的最佳利益這樣子部長你應該認同吧當然我最近發現一個這個不是個案2月29號出生的勞工他衰嗎"},{"start":179.107,"end":181.61,"text":"部長你可能看到這句話你會覺得很納悶為什麼跟勞動部有關係來接下來我們現在所有2月29日出生的勞工他的權益受損這一件事情我從基層的承辦人員問到你們的課長問到你們的組長問到你們的市長問到你們的這個局長沒有人敢"},{"start":202.884,"end":226.373,"text":"做決定而且他們也承認我告訴你這個邏輯在哪裡好不好我們台中市這個是個案但是你可以去談通案這個是你要政策來判定案2月29日4年才過一次生日結果當他借齡滿的時候要申請勞保的一個退休的時候連他的退休金都要被吃虧都要吃虧為什麼你知道嗎有兩個模式一個呢我呢"},{"start":231.72,"end":256.242,"text":"這個個案他的年紀已經42年多了那呢他申請提早退休所以他滿60歲按照規定滿60歲他都可以申請提早退休結果呢因為他是2月29號出生也就是在這個個案裡面他明明已經屆年滿60歲了但是呢你們勞保局不給他提出申請你說呢要3月1號才能申請"},{"start":257.623,"end":275.365,"text":"部長你有講說3月1號申請有什麼不對有為什麼因為呢如果在你們認定裡面他只能3月1號提出申請很抱歉他的申請的退休金少了一個基數他3月提出申請4月才能領所以呢他少領了一個月"},{"start":277.489,"end":304.352,"text":"在你們現在的勞保制度裡面是這樣子那不是只有在提早申請退休的這個2月29日出生的勞工才這樣子喔是包括介林滿65歲我要申請退休的2月29日出生的勞工也一樣也一樣你們呢讓滿65歲以上可以申請退休的勞工他2月29日出生你說對不起喔我呢還是讓你3月1日才能夠申請"},{"start":306.067,"end":315.74,"text":"三月一號申請他影響他又是什麼也是一樣他的退休金的權益他掃領了他掃領了是那我們"},{"start":317.352,"end":335.494,"text":"明明行政程序法裡面所有政府的施政所有制度法規都應該從人民的權益要從優從利從寬來認定為什麼我們在勞保的這個退休的勤領的年齡的認定上我們要這麼的嚴苛這第一點第二點你們的承辦"},{"start":336.095,"end":356.985,"text":"告訴我我們是依據民法來推斷那我就要說你們引用的是民法的第121條是對你們有利對政府機關有利最便宜形式的推斷方式你為什麼不從民法第124條裡面他對於年齡的認定年齡至出生之日期算這一條124條是對勞工對人民有利的你們為什麼不採用為什麼不採記為什麼不認定"},{"start":365.799,"end":380.705,"text":"而是從對行政單位最便宜行事的民法121條而且還不是你們自己勞動部的一個行政命令的解釋而且是用其他部會其他部制度的一個解釋行政命令來"},{"start":384.011,"end":395.58,"text":"任用?所以部長我覺得這一件事也許對我們公務機關來講這叫小事啦可是對勞工來講這是一件大事啊是當然當然是不是我們來檢討好不好我來檢討看看我覺得"},{"start":400.123,"end":400.723,"text":"接下來請黃珊珊委員發言"}]}},{"id":"152904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152904","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453d4e836ac4c8d01b3f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8311b2de8b317ab69f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:08:47 - 11:14:28","影片長度":"00:05:41","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":341,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:14:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T11:08:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時8分）謝謝主席，我們請公平會主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。請教一下，我手上的這個袋子，接下來還有機會用到嗎？請回答。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要看結合事業將來的營運模式。"],["黃委員捷：這就是今天大家想問你的，Uber Eats跟熊貓接下來非常有機會併購，而公平會的審查，到底目前你們的判斷是什麼？我手上的這個袋子會不會變成絕版品啊？我講一下，現在這個併購的案子，因為公平會確實第一時間有出來講，但是過去你們也調查8個月了，你們第一時間就出來說如果這兩間合併的話，市占率會超過8成，也就是說剩下目前還有其他的3間，包括foodomo然後蝦皮外送、街口外送這3間的規模跟市占率絕對沒有辦法跟Uber Eats併購熊貓之後來相抗衡，是這樣對嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：結合之後，併購方在市場上會有相當大的市場力量，這個是事實。"],["黃委員捷：是8成以上嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：到底多少比例，這個要看市場界定，還會再進一步算……"],["黃委員捷：所以到現在還算不出來市占率是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是，委員提到8成，我們在109年的時候有算過，但是因為現在時空背景不一樣，必須要重新來評估。"],["黃委員捷：那什麼時候算得出來？大家很關心，現在小店家很關心、消費者很關心、外送員也很擔心，全臺灣14萬的外送員很擔心接下來他們的權益會不會更被剝奪，很多小店家也很擔心抽成的比例會不會變更高，很多外送的使用者，我相信在場很多人平常都會叫外送，也很擔心會不會到時候變相地不斷漲價，沒有人能夠去跟這樣非常龐大規模的消費模式來做抗衡，這是公平會現在應該要做的，所以我到目前為止還聽不出來，你們到底在審查程序進行到如何了，你們有沒有趕快先算一下他們合併上造成的限制競爭的效果到哪裡了，你可不可以告訴我？"],["李主任委員鎂：我跟委員說明一下，我們的結合審查程序是這樣，就是它送件以後，文件必須要齊備，文件齊備以後我們受理了，審查期間是30天，必要的時候可以再延長60天，所以您剛才所……"],["黃委員捷：審查的期限是幾月幾號？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為現在文件還在審理當中，我們必須要文件都齊備才開始起算這30天，目前……"],["黃委員捷：所以你們有預先做任何準備了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前還沒有起算。"],["黃委員捷：請問就你們的判斷，現在如果Uber Eats併購熊貓之後，會不會被認定是限制競爭？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說我們會評斷很多面向，你剛才提到的就是包括它的交易相對人、外送員、餐廳甚至是消費者，這些利害關係人跟併購方將來的議價能力如何，這些都是我們會評估……"],["黃委員捷：這就是我們最擔心的，因為我已經可以想像Uber Eats接下來會說什麼？它會說合併之後，我們就產生規模經濟，成本、價格下降，服務會變更好，經營效率變更高。他們的說詞大家都已經知道了，所以我想知道的是公平會的態度能不能在接下來對消費者、對店家、對外送員進行保障嘛！尤其是外送員現在非常擔心，因為其實在這個過程當中，外送費一直在調漲，然後調漲還不夠，他們還加了服務費，但是這個過程當中，外送員的薪資是被砍，然後外送員的權益是沒有保障的，甚至到現在連外送員的勞動條件都非常差嘛！所以這是我們最擔心的，會不會變成一個外送巨獸，外送巨獸會不會吞噬掉所有消費方、店家方甚至是外送員的權益？我覺得公平會到現在還沒有辦法給出大家任何的承諾說你們會給消費者保障、你們會給店家保障、你們會讓外送員有基本勞動條件的保障，甚至連會不會限制抽成的上限都答不出來，這是我覺得公平會現在最重要的任務。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於這個結合案會去評估對競爭秩序的影響，剛才您談到的這些面向都會在考慮裡面。"],["黃委員捷：你們至少要告訴大家接下來的併購案會不會造成限制競爭，接下來Uber Eats的說詞，你們有沒有辦法做最嚴格的把關嘛，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要在委員會裡面討論以後審慎去評估、去討論。"],["黃委員捷：好啦，主委，我希望接下來還有機會看到這個袋子上面的logo可以繼續使用，可以讓大家知道這個市場上還是有多元的選擇，消費者不會被欺壓啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","接下來我們請麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Eats併購熊貓之後來相抗衡是這樣對嗎?"},{"start":94.111,"end":122.305,"text":"結合之後併購方在市場上會有相當大的一個市場力量這個是事實是八成以上嗎到底多少比例這個要看市場界定所以到現在還算不出來市佔率是多少不是我們委員上提到那個八成我們在109年的時候有算過但是因為現在時空背景不一樣必須要重新來評估"},{"start":123.405,"end":149.253,"text":"那什麼時候算得出來大家很關心嘛現在小店家很關心消費者很關心外送員也很擔心全台灣14萬的外送員很擔心說接下來他們的權益會不會更被剝奪很多小店家也很擔心抽成的比例會不會變更高很多外送的使用者我相信在場很多人平常都會叫外送啦"},{"start":150.455,"end":174.743,"text":"大家也很擔心會不會到時候變相的不斷漲價沒有人能夠去跟這樣的非常龐大規模的消費模式來做抗衡這是公平會現在應該要做的啊所以我到目前為止還聽不出來你們到底在審查程序進行到如何了你們有沒有趕快先算一下說他們合併上造成的限制競爭的效果到哪裡了"},{"start":176.138,"end":199.459,"text":"你可不可以告訴我我跟委員說明一下我們的結合審查程序是這樣就是他送件以後文件必須要齊備文件齊備以後我們受理了審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再延長60天那所以您剛才所審查的期限是幾月幾號因為現在文件還在審理當中我們必須要文件都齊備才開始起算這30天"},{"start":201.541,"end":221.014,"text":"請問就你們的判斷現在如果UberEats併購熊貓之後會不會被認定是限制競爭應該是說我們會評斷很多面向那您剛才提到的就是包括他的交易相對人、外送員、餐廳甚至是消費者這些戀愛關係人跟併購方將來的溢價能力"},{"start":225.236,"end":233.361,"text":"這就是我們最擔心的因為我已經可以想像UberEats接下來會說什麼他會說合併之後我們就產生規模經濟啊成本價格下降啊服務會變更好啊經營效率變更高啊他們的說辭大家都已經知道了所以我想知道的是公平會的態度能不能在接下來對消費者、對店家、對外送員進行保障嗎尤其是外送員現在非常擔心因為其實在這個過程當中外送費一直在調漲"},{"start":254.153,"end":254.693,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具"},{"start":272.941,"end":298.554,"text":"外送聚送會不會吞噬掉所有消費方、店家方甚至是外送員的權益那我覺得公平會到現在還沒有辦法給出大家任何的承諾說你們會給消費者保障你們會給店家保障你們會讓外送員有基本的勞動條件的保障甚至連會不會限制抽成的上限都答不出來這是我覺得公平會現在最重要的任務"},{"start":299.654,"end":321.962,"text":"我們對這個結合案會去評估對競爭秩序的影響那剛才您談到的這些面向都會在考慮裡面拜託如果你們至少要告訴大家接下來的併購案會不會造成限制競爭接下來Uber Eats的說辭你們有沒有辦法做最嚴格的把關嗎好不好要在委員會裡面討論以後"},{"start":326.52,"end":337.21,"text":"主委我希望接下來還有機會看到這個袋子上面的logo可以繼續使用可以讓大家知道說這個市場上還是有多元的選擇消費者不會被欺壓啦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453425359b1e41a2851f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83d511c68266aedb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:02:23 - 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Eats，這個合併你們目前有沒有既定的態度跟立場？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個結合案我們有……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個併購。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個結合案有我們的處理原則，我們會根據申請人所提供的資料，以及我們的處理原則……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有既定的立場跟態度，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要依據資料審慎來評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以沒有一定會讓它併購，或是不讓它併購？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前才在檢視這些文件，還沒有說一定准或不准。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，接下來的問題，因為你們提出來四大面向的審查重點，我覺得現在就已經可以告訴你了，市場集中度一定是高度集中，併購的定價能力一定都是賣方市場，合併案協同效果聯合的行為就是一家獨大，現在兩家龍頭變成一家，那就是一家獨大啊！市場效益一定就會變成外送平臺的議價空間跟其定價的能力，一定遠高於個別小商家的餐廳、14萬個外送員以及消費者，因為消費者只有這樣一個外送平臺可以選擇。當然你說有沒有後來的競爭者，有可能有，但是它的市場規模跟市場機制，完全會跟這樣一個合併完的平臺不符合正比，如果你只講要看到這四項審查重點，是不是就會有一些偏頗的部分？有沒有可能？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要針對申請人所提供的資料，根據這幾個審查面向會審慎去評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外我再請教，如果要開公聽會，座談會、公聽會預計要開幾場？"],["李主任委員鎂：會看情形，我們沒有說公聽會一定是開幾場，但是一定會開。"],["洪委員孟楷：一定會開。"],["李主任委員鎂：利害關係人也都會找到。"],["洪委員孟楷：但因為利害關係人現在可能遍布全臺，餐廳遍布全臺、外送員遍布全臺、消費者遍布全臺。"],["李主任委員鎂：應該會有一些團體、工會，我們會邀請，還有跨機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：既然是公聽會，當然就要傾聽各界的意見跟聲音，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想公聽會或座談會絕對不會是淪為一個過水、過場的機制，我想你也不認同嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會！"],["洪委員孟楷：既然如此的話，不敢講臺灣各縣市都要開，但是不是北、中、南至少都要開？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個公聽會怎麼進行，我們會再做一個判斷，因為我們的審查期間就是30天，再加60天，共90天，所以如何有效處理公共意見的徵詢……"],["洪委員孟楷：如何有效處理，效率很重要，但是傾聽民意也很重要、瞭解地方心聲也很重要，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：再者，我想請教，本席請同仁去找資料，到目前為止還沒有找到，公平會因應非常大的一個併購案，有人說這可能是臺灣除了半導體產業以外，最大筆的一個金額併購，目前你們有沒有去找世界各國其他的案例？"],["李主任委員鎂：這兩家的結合，就是foodpanda跟Uber Eats，我們沒有看到其他國家的案例。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有嘛！對不對？所以臺灣可能會變成首例，其他世界各國有沒有多家外送平臺進行併購？或者是有沒有世界各國現在已經存在外送平臺一家獨大的狀況？"],["李主任委員鎂：以我的瞭解，其他國家有外送平臺結合的例子，但不是這兩家。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那結合的例子？"],["李主任委員鎂：也跟委員說明，這個案子第一大跟第二大結合是非常……"],["洪委員孟楷：少見。"],["李主任委員鎂：整個市場結構一定會影響，所以在……"],["洪委員孟楷：完全會影響。"],["李主任委員鎂：不管是國際上或是公平會，我們對於這種情形一定會審慎處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！另外，有沒有看到世界各國現在是一家獨強，市占率高達7成、8成、9成的狀況，可能會造成餐廳、外送員、消費者的權益受損？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果一個企業在這個行業裡面處於獨占的地位，有這樣的事實，我想各個國家的競爭法，包括我們的公平交易法，對獨占事業都另外有規範。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席要提出來的重點就在於，接下來你們30天再加60天，總共90天的審理，既然是遇到首例，外送平臺在這幾年，我們甚至講說成熟了，可能是這6年、這7年之間的狀況，在案例的部分，我覺得公平會應該要事先瞭解其他國家的狀況；還有最重要的其實大家都一樣，我們之前一直念茲在茲，就是外送員以及外送平臺的保障法、基本法、專法，到目前為止還沒有辦法訂立，而勞動部或是相關的部會，我等一下也會到衛環委員會請教新任的勞動部長，對於外送平臺跟外送員的專法他的立場跟態度，但最重要的是我們看到很多世界各國，他們也因應這樣子的專法能夠訂出不管是抽成的上限、不管是每一個外送員基本接單的工資、還有包括消費者付出的代價等等部分，都有一些明確的保障，用意就是不要讓不管是兩家龍頭，或是一家獨大，因為市場的寡占或是壟斷，而造成消費者、餐廳跟外送員的權益受損，在還沒有辦法有專法之前，公平會一定要審慎評估這一次兩大龍頭的併購案。"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在。","請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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E這個合併我們目前有沒有既定的態度跟立場"},{"start":29.653,"end":32.155,"text":"這個結合案我們有我們的處理原則,那我們會根據申請人所提供的資料以及我們的這個結合處理原則,我們要依據這個資料來審慎來評估,所以沒有說一定讓他併購或是不讓他併購"},{"start":48.084,"end":67.519,"text":"目前才在檢視這些文件是 所以我想要接下來的問題因為你們提出來是說即將四大面向審查重點我覺得現在就已經可以告訴你了市場集中度一定是高度集中嘛併購的定價能力一定都是賣方市場嘛"},{"start":68.581,"end":87.599,"text":"和併案協同效果聯合的行為就是一家獨大現在兩家龍頭變成一家那就是一家獨大市場效益一定就會變成是外送平台的一個議價空間跟他的一個定價的能力一定遠高於個別的小商家的餐廳"},{"start":88.84,"end":109.485,"text":"十四萬的外送員以及消費者因為消費者他已經只有這樣的一個外送平台可以選擇當然你說有沒有後來的競爭者有可能有但是他的市場規模跟市場機制完全會跟這樣一個如果說合併完之後的一個平台不符合正比啊所以如果說你只講是說要看到這審查重點這事項的話那是不是就會有一個偏撥的一個部分"},{"start":116.601,"end":146.144,"text":"有沒有可能?我們要針對申請人所提供的資料那根據這幾個審查面向會審慎去評估那另外我再請教如果要開公聽會預計要開幾場?座談會、公聽會會看情形會看情形就是公聽會我們沒有說一定是開幾場但是一定會開那利害關係人也都會找到但因為利害關係人現在可能遍佈全台餐廳遍佈全台外送員遍佈全台消費者遍佈全台"},{"start":148.043,"end":173.289,"text":"應該會有一些團體公會我們會邀請還有跨機關但既然是公聽會當然就要傾聽各界的意見跟聲音嘛是不是我想公聽會或座談會絕對不會是淪為一個過水過場的機制我想你也不認同嘛不會不會所以既然如此的話臺灣各縣市不敢講說各縣市都要開但是至少北中南"},{"start":176.477,"end":200.353,"text":"公聽會怎麼進行我們會再做一個判斷因為我們的審查期間就是30天再加60天、90天所以如何有效處理如何有效處理效率很重要但是我們傾聽民意很重要瞭解地方新生意很重要是不是來在這我想請教其實這一個也是本席現在到目前為止"},{"start":201.514,"end":229.543,"text":"我請同仁去找資料還沒有找到我們公平會因應這樣的一個非常大的一個併購案有人講是說這可能是臺灣除了半逃避產業以外最大比的一個金額併購到目前我們有沒有去找世界各國有沒有其他的案例這兩家的結合就是富編達跟烏貝易我們沒有看到其他沒有嘛 對不對所以臺灣可能會變成首例那其他世界各國有沒有多家外送平台他們併購"},{"start":231.243,"end":257.817,"text":"或者是說有沒有世界各國現在已經存在一家獨大外送平台獨大的一個狀況。我可以了解其他國家有外送平台結合的例子但不是這兩家。是。那結合的例子?也跟委員說明我們就是說這個案子第一大跟第二大結合是非常少見市場結構會一定會影響。完全會影響。所以在不管是國際上或是"},{"start":259.124,"end":270.033,"text":"公平會我們對這種情形一定會審慎是那另外有沒有看到說世界各國現在就一家獨強就獨強市佔率可能高達七成八成九成"},{"start":271.158,"end":286.996,"text":"的一個狀況那可能會造成餐廳外送員消費者的權益受損如果一個企業他在這個行業裡面處於一個獨佔的地位有這樣的事實那我們我想各個國家的競爭法包括我們的公平交易法對獨佔事業都另外有規範"},{"start":289.477,"end":315.409,"text":"是,本時要提出來的重點就在於是因為接下來你們30天再加60天總共90天一個審理一定因為既然是遇到首例然後既然是外送平台是這幾年我們甚至講說成熟了可能是這6年這7年之間的一個狀況所以案例的部分我覺得公平會議應該有事先做了解其他國家的一個狀況那還有最重要其實大家都一樣"},{"start":316.149,"end":332.759,"text":"我們之前一直念茲在茲就是外送員以及外送平台的保障法、基本法、專法到目前為止還沒有辦法定立而勞動部或是相關的部落等下也會去慰問委員會請教我們的新任勞動部長他對於外送平台跟外送員的專法他的立場跟態度"},{"start":333.74,"end":357.658,"text":"但最重要的是我們看到很多世界各國他們也因應這樣子的一個專法能夠訂出不管是抽成的上限不管是每一個接單外送員的基本的接單的工資還有包括說消費者的一個這個付出的一些代價等等的部分都有一些明確的保障用意就是不要讓不管是兩家龍頭或是一家獨大"},{"start":358.539,"end":372.366,"text":"因為市場的寡占或是壟斷而造成消費者餐廳跟外送員的一個權益受損但在還沒有辦法有專法之前公平會一定要審慎評估這一次兩大龍頭的一個併購案是的謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453de58227167c484a99f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e8377988f7de2833a605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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11:01:21","影片長度":"00:13:59","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":839,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:01:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:47:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":949,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時47分）謝謝主席。主席，先請法務部次長及金管會莊局長。"],["主席：請次長及局長。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長好。次長，我先請教您，我們今天排審的洗錢防制法修正草案是這個會期的重點法案之一，我也希望能夠透過修法來回應民眾最關心的詐騙防制相關問題，也是相關部會在打擊詐騙和新興洗錢防制上亟需擁有的武器。我想先就兩個部分請教，有關洗錢防制的跨機關整合應該要如何進行？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個法本身就是整合，在母法定好以後，金管會或者是數發部就根據這些母法制定相關的子法，對於業者的管理、申報的義務及稽核（內稽及內控）機制接著都會出來，相關的罰則也會出來，這都是跨部會的結合，才會有效地打擊……"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們在跨國合作的部分僅透過參與亞太防制組織，是否這樣就足夠了？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是對我們的評鑑、互評的制度，其他的像剛才調查局的同仁也報告過，我們很多資金的資料事實上在國際互惠的原則之下有做交換，這都是屬於跨國的合作。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們目前是由哪一個機關在負責這個工作？"],["徐次長錫祥：你說……"],["陳委員俊宇：就是跨國的合作部分。"],["徐次長錫祥：法務部調查局的洗防處。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。洗防處嗎？"],["吳處長月萍：報告委員，我們現在就是……因為調查局洗錢防制處是我國的金融情報中心，我們有參加艾格蒙聯盟，透過艾格蒙聯盟的安全網路，我們會跟其他的會員國做情資的交換。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，再來我想請教銀行局莊局長，我們除了在法制面上的修正以外，在務實上的執行部分，想請教和第一線的金融機構在修法上的溝通是否順暢？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，這次的修正其實現行金融機構本來就已經固定在執行防制洗錢的義務，所以不用這次的修正以前，現行的條文裡面就賦予金融機構很多的義務，比如說KYC或者是交易監控，這些資訊如果他們覺得有任何可疑的部分，他們會去通報法務部調查局的FIU，FIU其實也會定期跟金融機構做一些教育訓練，我們常常會辦一些法遵論壇，所以彼此之間資訊是會互相互享的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，對於我們修訂的機制和規範，有沒有規劃相關的訓練？"],["莊局長琇媛：這個部分的話，因為這次修正重點主要是虛擬資產業者，如果後續修正完畢之後，我們也會循現有的金融機構的溝通協調，還有論壇的方式來做彼此資訊的分享跟訓練。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，剛剛問的這個部分再請我們相關部會是不是會後可以給我一份比較詳細的書面資料？"],["莊局長琇媛：好、是。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長和局長請回，我們請周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長好。"],["周秘書長萬來：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想就立法院解凍的報告當中國會助理法制化的部分來做一個討論。"],["周秘書長萬來：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想這個問題也不是新的議題了，過去不管是工會還是民團都有在倡議，希望透過法制的修訂，以避免發生爭議，改善工作條件等等，現行有關規定是依據我們立法院組織法第三十二條及第三十三條，包括每位立法委員可以聘用的助理人數以及各黨團公費助理的人數。秘書長，您在立法院已經三十多年了，多年來來來去去也看到很多的案例，想請教秘書長一個問題，就是您認為國會助理在立法院裡面是扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["周秘書長萬來：在協助委員問政，這個是最重要的。"],["主席：請用麥克風。"],["周秘書長萬來：協助委員問政，當然委員的助理有很多類別，但最主要還是要讓委員在問政的時候能夠有相當大的一個問政功能。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，立法委員的職權相當的繁重，秘書長您也認同。"],["周秘書長萬來：我瞭解。"],["陳委員俊宇：需要有專業的幕僚團隊一起來推動相關的工作。"],["周秘書長萬來：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：但是，從我們先前調查的結果，可以看到國會助理的平均年資僅有兩年多，甚至大部分都做不到四年，也就是少於立法委員一屆的任期，想請問秘書長，針對這個部分以您的經驗來看，造成流動率偏高的主因是什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然，因為委員在僱用的時候，每一個助理對他的生涯規劃不完全一樣，因為是由委員來僱用，所以在這個過程當中，一、二十年的委員助理也很多……"],["陳委員俊宇：除了生涯規劃以外，待遇可能是最重要的原因之一，所以現在公費助理的薪水來自立法院每年所編列的預算，我想請問秘書長，如果助理的待遇能夠明文規範、公開、透明，讓有志投入國會工作的助理在待遇上能夠有保障，有可能比較能夠避免投機的行為或是違法的爭議事件發生，我想請教秘書長，您的看法如何？"],["周秘書長萬來：對於委員的助理，因為長期以來從七十幾年我們的互動中，我對於委員的助理是持相當肯定的態度，當然能夠讓它提升……舉個例來講，委員公費助理的費用，原來從三萬、四萬到現在是五萬，如果各位委員認為僱用助理的費用能夠提升，其實也可以經過組織法的修正來讓它提升，讓委員有比較多的僱用助理的費用，也是一條路。"],["陳委員俊宇：國會助理法制化這個部分我希望由秘書長這邊來做一個滾動式的檢討，我們能夠檢討出一套符合所有助理期待的新法的話，我相信這樣子，才能夠把這些比較優質的這些助理一直留存下來，來幫助我們整個立法院推動相關議事的運作。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝、謝謝指導，私下我會再來做研議，讓助理本身對他的工作有一個基本的成就。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，再就我們國會擴建的部分，我想再就教秘書長目前進度為何？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在還沒有，已經都提報，但還沒有……私下希望能夠透過黨團協商，因為陳委員也非常關心那麼多次，所以透過黨團協商就能夠去推動，在這裡大概總務處也上簽，也跟院長有稍微報告過，我知道你很關心這一點。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我還是期待周秘書長您能夠加快這個速度。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝、謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為就我們這個報告資料來看，不論選擇目前規劃的其中六個點之一的其中一個點，它所必須的期程要14到19年左右，這時間算是蠻冗長的，這整個過程，你如果沒有趕快啟動的話，我相信這是遙遙無期，針對這個遙遙無期的情況之下，現況的立法院有沒有可能就現址來做簡單的擴建？包括我們走進來的警衛駐所，還是商店街或康園這一個區塊，有沒有辦法在這個地方先就第一期的擴建？讓我們未來整個立法院所有同仁在使用空間上可以更加符合現在的期待？"],["陳委員俊宇：處長要回答嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我請處長回答，因為有一些規劃……"],["廖處長烱志：報告委員，因為本院在今年度有編列預算，原本是等到朝野協商決定地點後，我們會進行相關的規劃，所以這個是有做準備，但是需要先決定地點，以上，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：處長，會後麻煩您剛剛講的這一個部分，及我剛剛詢問的部分，再包括我們有兩個會館，現在對於整修部分的期程，可不可以給我一份完整的書面資料？"],["廖處長烱志：是，OK！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我再就教秘書長，立法院現在是誰在當家？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然是院長，因為院長綜理院務……"],["陳委員俊宇：所以是韓院長在當家嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：院長，因為從法條規定他是綜理院務。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，為什麼國民黨在近期的院會裡面，全副武裝進入院會裡面，就像鎮暴人員一樣，並且在過程裡面發生肢體衝突，導致民進黨多位委員受傷？"],["周秘書長萬來：這我就沒辦法針對陳委員所說的答復。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長，您都在議場裡面，所以到底是誰在當家鬧事？"],["周秘書長萬來：我未便答復這個……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我想請教517跟521，秘書長，您有聽到外面民眾吶喊的聲音，有看到民眾聚集的現象嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我在議場裡面。"],["陳委員俊宇：你沒有回家嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我回家就直接搭車回家了……"],["陳委員俊宇：搭車出去你沒看到嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：十二點多就回去了。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我想整個過程，所有媒體現在披露出來都是民眾看到立法院裡面這麼混亂的情況，在通過大家所不希望看到的法案，所以自發性地走上街頭，怎麼會剛剛我聽到說什麼是民進黨去動員的，您認為呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不太瞭解。"],["陳委員俊宇：主席，再1分鐘。我想請教議事規則，我們正式會議要進行表決之前，清點人數應該是最基本的吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然有清點人數，在過程當然有清點人數。"],["陳委員俊宇：可是為什麼沒有每一次要表決就要……"],["周秘書長萬來：因為以前曾經有這樣的一個例，當時也做這樣的宣告，所以大概一個案它都會有一個，接續就沒有再做清點。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那會議開始應該也要告知所有的委員說，等一下我們將進行的表決方式是要用什麼方式表決，應該是這樣子吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：有宣告……"],["陳委員俊宇：有宣告？"],["周秘書長萬來：在旁邊有宣告。"],["陳委員俊宇：521有宣告嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：都有宣告，因為大概都……在表決的時候都會宣告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，有宣告嘛，521是宣告要舉手表決嘛，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：每一次在表決的時候都一定有宣告，我在旁邊也是聽到。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。剛剛在講517當天可能是混亂的情況，導致表決卡出了問題，但521並沒有混亂的情況，為什麼會是用舉手表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為它是接續啦……"],["陳委員俊宇：517跟521是接續？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個是主席去裁定、去處理，我沒辦法跟陳委員……"],["陳委員俊宇：那我想請教我們設置記名表決器的用意何在？是要裝飾的嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個……"],["陳委員俊宇：民主國家為什麼會走民主的倒退路？怎麼這麼奇怪？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個表決方式是由主席來決定宣告，我是這樣報告而已。"],["陳委員俊宇：我希望秘書長您應該是要站在歷史的軌道上，未來要為歷史負責。以上。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","因為時間已經11點，我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時7分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","在繼續會議之前，先作如下之宣告，由於主席在會議開始前未及預告今日包括臨時提案的收受及處理時間，在這裡徵詢在場的委員，我們待會臨時提案在11點半後或是郭委員質詢完畢後進行處理，請問在場委員有無異議？（無）沒有，那我們就做這個宣告。","接下來請吳委員思瑤進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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謝主席 委員好 次長好"},{"start":34.488,"end":60.059,"text":"市長我先請教您我們今天排審的這個洗錢防制法修正草案是在這個會期的一個重點法案之一那我也希望說能夠透過修法來回應民眾最關心的這個詐騙防制的相關問題那也是相關部會在打擊詐騙和這個新興洗錢防制上急需擁有的一個武器那這邊我想先就兩個部分來請教"},{"start":61.84,"end":66.207,"text":"有關這個洗錢防制的這個跨機關整合應該要如何來進行?"},{"start":73.482,"end":99.9,"text":"我們這個法就是本身就是整合在我們母法定好以後相關的執法然後相關的經管會或者是訴發部他們就根據這些母法的他們會制定相關的執寫的執法那就對於業者的管理以及申報的義務以及集合內機跟他們的內控的機制跟集合機制都會接著就會出來相關的法則會出來這都是跨"},{"start":100.52,"end":101.141,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":118.237,"end":143.167,"text":"那其他的像剛才調查局的同仁也報告過我們很多的資金的資料他們事實上我們在國際互惠的原則之下是有做交換這都是屬於跨國的合作那我們目前是有哪一個機關在負責這個工作就是跨國的合作部分"},{"start":143.627,"end":151.008,"text":"那個法務部調查局的洗房處。洗房處。好。那那個洗房處嗎?"},{"start":156.259,"end":184.928,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是因為我們那個倒下去洗錢防制處是我國的金融情報中心那我們有參加那個愛格蒙聯盟那透過愛格蒙聯盟的安全網路我們會跟其他的會員國做情資的交換好那我再來我想請教我們銀行局莊局長我們除了在法制面上的這個修正以外在務實上的執行部分想請教和第一線的這個金融機構在修法上溝通是否順暢"},{"start":186.575,"end":212.692,"text":"報告委員其實這次的修正其實現行金融機構他本來就已經固定在執行他防制洗錢的義務所以其實這一次不用這一次的修正以前我們其實現行的條文裡面就賦予金融機構很多的義務比如說KYC啊或者是交易監控那這些資訊如果他們覺得有任何可疑的部分他們會"},{"start":213.473,"end":214.454,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":238.267,"end":245.752,"text":"此次修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者。此次修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者。此次修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者。此次修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者。此次修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者。此次修正的重點主要是虛擬資產業者。"},{"start":254.537,"end":277.165,"text":"好,那剛剛問的這個部分再請我們相關部會是不是可以會後給我一份比較詳細的這個書面資料。好,是。好,那那個局長跟那個次長跟局長請回。好,我們請那個周秘書長。請周秘書長。好,秘書長好。我想"},{"start":278.137,"end":304.529,"text":"就這個立法院解凍的報告當中國會助理法制化的部分來做一個討論我想這個問題也不是新的這個議題了過去不管是公會還是民團都有在倡議那希望透過法制的修訂以避免發生爭議改善工作條件等等那現行有關規定是依據我們立法院組織法第32條及第33條包括每位立法委員可以聘用的這個助理人數"},{"start":305.309,"end":321.425,"text":"以及各黨團公費助理的人數,那秘書長您在這個立法院已經30多年了,多年來來來去去也看到很多的案例,那想請教秘書長一個問題就是您認為國會助理在立法院裡面是扮演什麼樣的角色?"},{"start":328.134,"end":329.615,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":351.704,"end":369.945,"text":"這個我們先前調查的結果可以看到國會助理的平均年資僅有兩年多甚至大部分都做不到四年也就是少於立法委員一屆的這個任期那想請問秘書長說針對這個部分您的經驗來看造成這個流動率偏高的主因是什麼"},{"start":370.776,"end":374.837,"text":"其實除了生涯規劃以外這個待遇可能是最重要的原因之一"},{"start":398.061,"end":423.377,"text":"所以現在公費助理的薪水來自立法院每年所編列的預算那我想請問秘書長如果助理的這個待遇能夠這個明文規範公開透明讓有志投入國會的這個工作的助理在待遇上能夠有保障有可能比較能夠避免投機的行為或是違法的這個爭議事件發生那我想請教秘書長您的看法如何"},{"start":424.161,"end":446.175,"text":"對於委員的助理,因為長期來從七十幾年我們在互動中,我對於委員的助理是有相當是曾肯定的這個態度啦。就當然能夠讓他提升的一個他的職位,比如舉個例來講,委員的這個工會助理的這個費用,原來就是一從三萬四萬到現在是五萬嘛。"},{"start":446.775,"end":448.215,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":464.548,"end":464.868,"text":"謝謝指導,我在在"},{"start":491.849,"end":507.031,"text":"此下我會再來做比較嚴厲的讓他比較讓助理本身對這一個他的工作他有一個成就好那在就我們這個國會擴建的部分我想再就叫我們秘書長目前進度為何"},{"start":508.516,"end":525.273,"text":"現在還沒有已經都提報還沒有是私下的一個希望能夠透過黨團協商因為陳委員也非常關心那麼多次所以能夠透過黨團協商來就能夠去推動啦在這裡就跟大概總務處也上前了也跟院長有稍微就報告過了"},{"start":527.695,"end":553.534,"text":"我還是期待我們周秘書長您能夠加快這個速度因為就我們這個報告資料來看不論選擇目前規劃的這個其中六個點之一的其中一個點他所必須要這個期程要在14到19年左右那這時間算是蠻冗長的那這個整個過程你如果沒有趕快啟動的話我相信這是遙遙無期"},{"start":555.063,"end":580.428,"text":"那針對這個遙遙無期的情況之下我們現況的立法院有沒有可能就限職來做簡單的擴建包括我們走進來這個警衛住所還是這個商店街還是這個康園這個區塊有沒有辦法在這個地方先就第一期的這個擴建讓我們未來整個立法院所有同仁在使用空間上可以更加的這個符合現在的期待"},{"start":581.277,"end":605.253,"text":"您要不要來跟他說明一下?處長要回答嗎?我請處長,因為有一些規劃。因為有一些規劃在...報告委員,因為本院在今年度有編列預算,等...原本是等到朝以後決定地點後,我們會進行這個相關的規劃。那所以這個是有做準備,但是需要先決定地點。好,那處長,會後麻煩您剛剛講的這一個部分,我剛剛詢問的部分,"},{"start":610.35,"end":610.771,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":630.836,"end":654.978,"text":"所以是韓院長在當家嗎?院長因為從法條規定他是總理緣無憾那為什麼國民黨在這近期的這個院會裡面全副武裝進入這個院會裡面就像這個政報人員一樣並且在這個過程裡面發生這個肢體衝突的時候導致民進黨的多位這個委員受傷?"},{"start":662.686,"end":685.46,"text":"應該秘書長您都在議場裡面所以到底是誰在當家鬧事?好 那我想請教517跟521秘書長您有聽到外面民眾吶喊的聲音有看到民眾聚集的現象嗎?你沒有回家嗎?"},{"start":688.45,"end":692.311,"text":"我想整個過程所有媒體現在披露出來都是民眾看到這個立法院裡面這麼混亂的情況"},{"start":709.502,"end":735.436,"text":"在通過大家所不希望看到的法案,所以自發性的走上街頭。啊怎麼會剛剛我聽到說什麼是民進黨去動員的?您認為勒?我不太了解。好,那主席再一分鐘。那我想請教,議事規則。我們正式會議要進行表決之前,清點人數應該是最基本的吧?"},{"start":737.126,"end":764.365,"text":"這一個當然有清點人數阿在過程當然有清點人數可是為什麼沒有每一次要表決就要因為在有一個以前曾經有這樣的一個例過在當時也做這樣宣告所以大概一個大概一個案他都會有一個接續他就沒有再做清點那會議開始應該也要告知所有的委員說等一下我們將進行的這個表決方式是要用什麼方式表決應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":765.788,"end":770.412,"text":"五一七當天可能是混亂的情況導致這個表決卡出了問題五二一並沒有混亂的情況為什麼會是用舉手表決"},{"start":793.387,"end":802.415,"text":"五一七跟五二一接續?那我想請教我們設置記名表決器的用意何在?是要裝飾的嗎?民主國家為什麼會走民主的倒退路?怎麼這麼奇怪?"},{"start":819.554,"end":823.158,"text":"我希望秘書長您應該是要站在這個歷史的軌道上,未來要為歷史負責。好,以上。好,謝謝陳委員。"}]}},{"id":"152900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453fddc341ba183169cf1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83aec69ac5727ffa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:56:59 - 11:02:21","影片長度":"00:05:22","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":322,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T11:02:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:56:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時57分）謝謝主席，我請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委早。我想我們大家都非常關心Uber Eats跟foodpanda的合併案，合併案當然要經過公平會的審查，但我這邊想問的是，在去年的9月份，其實也有委員針對相關的平台業者，對於他們外送員的薪資報酬有一些爭議，它有幾個問題，當時就是它可能會片面改變他們的薪酬條件；第二個，它的計價公式不夠透明。當時主委跟委員的回報，8個月前你說已經在立案調查，我想請問一下，現在立案調查結果怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員回報，這案子我們有進行調查，調查的主要方向……"],["黃委員珊珊：調查有結果跟處分了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是不是有聯合行為，我們調查以後，發現其實他們是個別去，並沒有共同合意……"],["黃委員珊珊：個別調降，但是他們同時間不斷地各自調降，然後現在變成合併案，所以你還認為他們是個別嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：在當時的調降，我們看不出有證據證明他們是共同一起調降。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以他們才不在乎公平會的調查，我的意思是說，外送員在去年陳情的時候，就是外送平台聯合在砍價；第二個，全臺統一黑箱價，不公開、不透明。現在他們要合併了，他們的時間點，同時降低外送員的報酬，那個時候已經形同聯合行為，現在進行合併，事實上就是將來合併之後，就不用再聯合砍價，它就自己砍價就好了，所以我想問的是8個月你的調查有報告、有相關的內容可以提供給我們嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：會後我會再跟委員進一步說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以就算你調查了，但是你也沒有做任何處分，你有找這些外送產業工會的人溝通過嗎？有瞭解他們的狀況嗎？有瞭解他們個案的情形嗎？有調查他們嗎？因為他們告訴我，他們什麼都不知道，也沒有後續相關的追蹤。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於這個調查，有找這兩個平台……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，他們來陳情，委員來反映，然後你們調查不找他們來、不找工會來，找foodpanda跟相關的平台業者來有什麼用嗎？如果今天公平會是這樣的方式，我現在就很懷疑你們對於將來這個合併案的態度，有很多委員已經說了，如果臺灣的公平會不能站在消費者的立場，保障消費者的權益、保障這些從業人員的權益，公平會可以廢掉算了。8個月前的調查，你說沒有證據，也沒有找工會的人討論，這件事情我們怎麼能夠相信你接下來會公允地討論？到底有沒有找過工會的人？有沒有討論過？有沒有調查過？主委知道嗎？時間暫停，有同仁可以幫他補充嗎？有報告嗎？有內容嗎？"],["林處長慶堂：除了兩家平臺業者以外，我記得我們有找外送聯盟，請他們提供意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：提供意見之後有調查嗎？有結果嗎？有相關的內容回復給委員嗎？都沒有啊！這是怎麼回事啊！公平會的調查是自己調查完畢，高興，然後就結案、結束。陳情案你要回報人家一下啊！我希望一個禮拜之內把相關的報告拿過來。第二個，在這個部分，當時有這種相關的陳情案件，你們如果沒有調查事實的話，我希望你們重啟調查。","第二個部分，就是現在的合併案，你剛剛說有很多的因素要考慮，沒有錯，但是我們只有幾個要求：第一個合作的店家權益要保障；第二個消費者的權益，羊毛出在羊身上，它只要統一調漲，消費者一定要付出更高的代價；第三個外送員的權益，就剛剛講的有工會在，把他們當成正常人，14萬的從業人員是你必須要考慮，而且必須要保護的對象，最重要的是美國跟韓國都有制定抽成的上限，如果我們的公平會不能在合併案裡面，對於將來商家抽成有相關的規範，公平會也可以廢掉了。主委，以上是我的意見，我希望你一個禮拜把剛剛那個報告交過來。"],["李主任委員鎂：對本案我們會開公聽會，會邀集相關利害關係人一起來審核。"],["黃委員珊珊：我再說一次，如果你們在合併案裡面不能制定抽成的上限，比照韓國跟美國，公平會也可以廢掉了。一個禮拜，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。剛剛黃委員提到的調查報告，我想也一併送經濟委員會，謝謝。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那跟委員回報 這案子我們有進行調查 那調查的方向是不是有聯合行為 那我們調查以後發現就是說其實他們是個別去 並沒有共同合議 同時間不斷的各自調降 然後現在變成合併案 所以你還認為他們是個別嗎"},{"start":80.52,"end":81.182,"text":"所以他們才不在乎公平會的調查"},{"start":89.13,"end":95.013,"text":"我的意思是說外送人在去年陳情的時候就是外送平台聯合在砍價第二個全台統一黑箱價不公開不透明現在他們要合併了他們的時間點同時降低外送人的報酬現在那個時候已經形同聯合行為現在進行合併他事實上就是將來合併之後就不用再聯合砍價他就自己砍價就好了"},{"start":117.364,"end":140.362,"text":"所以我想問的是八個月你的調查有報告有相關的內容可以提供給我們嗎?所以就算你調查了但是你也沒有做任何處分你有找這些外送產業工會的人溝通過嗎?有瞭解他們的狀況嗎?有瞭解他們個案的情形嗎?有調查他們嗎?"},{"start":141.587,"end":167.634,"text":"因為他們告訴我他們什麼都不知道也沒有或許的相關的追蹤我們對於就是這個調查有找這個就是FuPanda兩個平台主委他們來澄清委員來反映然後你們調查不找他們來不找工會來找FuPanda跟相關的平台業者來有什麼用嗎?如果今天公平會是這樣的方式我現在就很懷疑你們對於將來這個合併案的態度"},{"start":170.219,"end":194.483,"text":"有很多委員已經說了如果台灣的公平會不能站在消費者的立場保障消費者的權益保障這些從業人員的權益這個公平會可以廢掉算了八個月前的調查你說沒有證據也沒有找公會的人討論這件事情我們怎麼能夠相信你接下來會公允的討論到底有沒有找公會的人過有沒有討論過有沒有調查過"},{"start":197.611,"end":204.684,"text":"主委知道嗎?時間暫停,他有同仁可以幫他補充嗎?有報告嗎?有內容嗎?"},{"start":208.874,"end":218.82,"text":"提供意見之後有調查嗎?有結果嗎?有相關的內容回覆給委員嗎?都沒有啊,這是怎麼回事啊?公平會的調查是自己調查完並高興,然後就結案,結束。誒,陳琴,那你要回報人家一下啊。"},{"start":235.885,"end":254.335,"text":"我希望一個禮拜之內把相關的報告拿過來第二個如果這個部分當時有這種相關的誠信案件你們如果沒有調查事實的話我希望你們重啟調查第二部分就是現在的病案合併案合併案你剛剛說有很多的因素要考慮沒有錯但是我們只有幾個要求"},{"start":254.795,"end":280.25,"text":"第一個合作的變價權益要保障消費者的權益羊毛出在羊身上他只要統一調帳消費者一定要付出更高的代價第三個外送員的權益就剛剛講有工會在把他們當成正常人14萬的從業人員他是你必須要考慮而且必須要保護的對象最重要的是美國跟韓國都有制定沖繩的上限"},{"start":281.05,"end":309.706,"text":"如果我們的公平會不能在合併案裡面對於他們將來對於商家抽成有相關的規範的話這個公平會也可以廢掉了主委以上是我的意見我希望你一個禮拜把剛剛那個報告交過來那對於本案我們會開公聽會會邀請相關的我再說一次如果我們在合併案裡面不能訂定制定抽成的上限比照韓國跟美國公平會也可以廢掉了"},{"start":311.069,"end":311.269,"text":"黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"152899","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152899","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453091038f7d09030839f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e83c51d64fd757f76385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:50:26 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10:57:21","影片長度":"00:10:33","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":633,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:57:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:46:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時46分）謝謝主席，請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好，首先要歡迎主委來到國科會，成為行政院團隊的一員。因為我也是清大的校友，我2013年從清大社研所畢業，後來主委在2014年擔任副校長，所以首先歡迎你。所謂人在公門好修行，我想這一屆的行政團隊有很大的使命，其實賴清德總統在就職的時候也告訴大家，未來我們有六大產業，臺灣其實正在一個轉型的轉捩點，我們正要步入國際的舞臺，所以有非常多的工作，我們過去打下良好的基礎，現在我們要再往前躍進一步。","在這兩天的報導裡面，我有關注一件事情，我覺得非常重要，也就是我看到經濟部提到一個構想，希望設置海外的科學園區，但首先我想請問主委，科學園區的主管機關是不是國科會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：國科會已經有在跟經濟部討論海外科學園區的計畫嗎？它目前是一個已經討論好的計畫，還是一個初步的構想？"],["吳主任委員誠文：初步構想。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以是經濟部主動來跟國科會討論，還是國科會提出來的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟郭部長見面的時候有聊到這個議題。"],["吳委員沛憶：你們有聊到這件事？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有聊到這個議題。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以目前還沒有開始規劃？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有開始規劃，但是我們已經有一些構想。"],["吳委員沛憶：關於海外科學園區的構想，主要我們是希望要達成什麼樣的目標？每個政策都要有目標嘛，我們的目標是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的目標包含協助我們產業的發展，要擴散到國際，因為現在臺灣本身已經有一些資源不足的狀況，包含人力的資源，包含土地，包含水電等等，在這些資源不足的狀況之下，我們產業要再發展、能夠影響國際，不能夠把所有的製造都放在臺灣，所以我們往國際發展。如果要往國際發展，當然要搭配我們的外交，到友善的國家，也能夠協助友善國家他們當地的發展，同時也彌補我們的資源不足，讓雙方各蒙其利。在這種狀況之下，我們是很認同，對臺灣也好，對於賴總統提到的協助全球和平、繁榮、穩定的任務，臺灣也可以扮演重要的角色。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，這個目標我也很認同，但主委你知道，一件事情很可能被詮釋成很多不同的觀點，例如我們產業的海外擴散，換一個說法，也可能有人會說這叫產業的外移。我在報導裡看到你說有幾個要件一定要達成，第一個是必須達到互惠互利，然後必須要有誘因，再來必須要符合國家利益，所以我還是想要請教，我們以政府的力量設置海外科學園區，協助臺灣的產業到海外擴散，對我們來說，什麼樣叫做互惠互利？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實是在因應我們產業本身需求的狀況之下才會去做。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，對我們臺灣本地的產業要有利？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對我們本地產業有利，我們必須要擴展我們的市場、擴展我們的製造基地，這是我們自己產業的需求，但是在我們資源不足的狀況之下，國內資源、產業發展已經到這個程度，必須要擴展。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想國人一定都支持我們臺灣本地產業的提升，但是產業的利益如何分享成為國民的利益，也就是主委所說的國家利益，我相信你們現在對於初步構想都在相關的討論當中，未來這個計畫整體來說，我覺得非常重要，從計畫的擬定到計畫的溝通，這個海外科學園區倘若對我們臺灣來說，讓我們跟其他國家可以達到互惠互利，甚至未來經濟部、外交部通通都要一起加入，這會是我們需要好好跟社會提出說明的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我同意。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們有沒有預計在什麼時間提出這樣的計畫？因為明年的預算應該都已經報編了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年都報了。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，所以預計是在什麼時候？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會搭配民間的發展，所以將來的投資不會全都是政府，一定是民間會搭配進來。至於園區則是當地政府也一定要搭配，所以我希望用我們自己國家最少的資源來達成最高的效益，詳細的做法等我跟郭部長討論以後，我們會跟外界宣布。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，我們希望比較完整的規劃擬定之後再來向社會發布，大家會比較清楚我們的新政策到底要完成什麼樣的目標。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來，因為主委您過去的背景是第一代的巨人少棒投手，也拿過威廉波特的世界冠軍，你也擔任過我們運科中心的董事長，所以我還是必須先問你一個行政上的問題，我們運科中心的董事長，你辭了沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經辭了。"],["吳委員沛憶：送出辭呈了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經送了。"],["吳委員沛憶：董事會開了沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不知道他們開了沒。"],["吳委員沛憶：已經辭了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我已經辭了。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這要說明清楚。我的選區在臺北市的中正、萬華，我們萬華也有一支世界知名的球隊──東園國小少棒隊，我長期跟在地的家長推廣全國的少棒錦標賽，所以我可以看到像我們的賴總教練，他已經是三十幾年的教練，非常努力投入在基層的選手培訓。因為國科會今天的報告當中也有運科，我想這非常重要，這個計畫已經來到第二期，擴大運科研究量能計畫是國科會、經濟部、教育部、衛福部跟數發部五個部會一起合作，現在進入到第二期，主要目標是什麼？因為我看到你們說還需要做科學成果的轉譯跟推廣，所謂的轉譯跟推廣是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在學界鼓勵教授做運動科技，不只有科學的研究，也就是結合科技的產業，將來能提出很多的方法、工具、系統，甚至是器材，協助我們的運動水準提升。委員提到少棒，我們其實在經濟部也有計畫，協助做少棒訓練的AI教練這種工具，將來如果發展成熟以後也可以協助東園國小。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前已經有相當多的研究成果，所以你們提到轉譯，我就覺得特別重要。在今天的報告裡面，我們看到你們執行的成果有杭州亞運游泳銀牌選手王冠閎、拳擊選手陳念琴，國人都非常熟悉，但這都已經是世界級的頂尖選手，所以如何把我們政府、國家投入資源的研究成果推廣到基層，應用到國民體育，我覺得也相當重要，但目前我沒有看到比較具體的計畫、規劃跟成果，也許已經有在做，我希望未來能夠提供相關的報告給我們。","我提供一個參考，因為過去我在臺北市擔任議員，體育署有一個基層運動選手訓練站的計畫，過去都是在各個學校裡面設立訓練站，所以在既有的學校資源以外，我們另外投入一個資源給在地基層的選手，但是我們也有一個條款是不一定要設在學校裡面。例如我一直在協助的霹靂舞，它是一個新興運動，我們也有選手正在拼奧運的門票，但是學校裡面還沒有霹靂舞校隊，假設訓練站只在學校裡面，那我們基層的選手永遠沒辦法從基層開始訓練，所以基層訓練站也可以由民間的團隊成立，我希望國科會能夠運用你們的專業跟其他像是體育署、教育部等等相關的部會一起合作。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了運科以外，國科會還有一個研究成果的運用，我覺得也很重要，因為國科會副主委同時也是文策院的當然董事，在我們國家的文化政策推廣裡面，國科會也是一個重要的角色。例如我們講到的科技數位運用，比方像國立歷史博物館就有相關的數位展覽計畫，這個計畫有什麼重要性？有很多偏鄉學校的小朋友，他們比較沒有那麼多的機會參觀故宮、國立歷史博物館，倘若我們可以運用科技把這些展覽內容數位化，也是達到一個文化平權，目前國科會還有沒有相關的計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有科技藝術的計畫在我們的人文處，需不需要說明？"],["吳委員沛憶：你們也有一個計畫是推動國家文化記憶庫及數位博物館計畫，我要特別提醒主委，我想你的專長比較是科技，還有運科也是您過去的專長，但文化的科技也非常重要。我們看到推動國家文化記憶庫過去的應用成果不只在這些重大的館區，也在我們的社區裡面，例如我們在一個街區重建歷史場景，這些相關科技的運用都很重要，所以我希望未來可以把相關的計畫規劃提供給我們知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，同意，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，主委請回。","我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時57分）","繼續開會（11時2分）"],["主席（吳委員沛憶代）：我們會議繼續進行。","接下來請林宜瑾委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.015968750000003,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.29846875,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.11221875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.46034375,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.23659375000001,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker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Eats的合併，會大幅改變臺灣外送服務市場的格局嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["羅委員智強：這兩家公司在國外都有很龐大的市場份額，在臺灣更高達八成嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以它幾乎就是市場的壟斷者，因此它的合併所產生的壟斷效應，對於市場競爭的限制，對於消費者、外送員跟商家權益，很可能產生不利的影響，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：會產生影響。"],["羅委員智強：我認為是會產生很多不利的影響，這個希望公平會都能夠去審酌，所以要確保的是什麼？就是公平會在處理這個案子，怎麼樣讓外送員、消費者跟商家的權益不受侵犯、不受侵害，這樣的一個基本原則，主委認同嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想在審查這個結合案，我們最主要考慮對競爭的影響，當然整個交易相對人，就是併購方的交易相對人──餐廳、外送員、消費者，這些可能的影響都會在評估裡面。"],["羅委員智強：目前已經收到兩家公司的合併申請了嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：收到了，我們在5月14號收到申請。"],["羅委員智強：所以基本上是受理申報起算30個工作天內不得進行結合，必要時公平會可以將審查期間延長60個工作天嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們這個30天的起算期間，是從它文件齊備開始算，不是從它送件的時候開始算。"],["羅委員智強：瞭解，那我想請問未來的審查重點，我看了一下可能就包括市場集中度、結合後併購方訂價能力、合併案協同效果（聯合行為）、然後市場效益。那麼對於外送服務來說，有別於其他產業的結合，外送特別的地方在於外送員權益的問題是比較要注意的，所以我想要問一下主委，你有在使用這兩家的外送服務嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有發現兩家外送員經常都看著平台之間的價格在做他的決定調整嘛！對不對？因為他們的價格是不太一樣的，對不對？我舉個例子，我看過外送員的攻略分享，熊貓每單最低是44元，夾單每單最低是加34元；Uber Eats每單最低40元，夾單每單最低加24元。含不定時加碼，不含趟次獎勵，Uber Eats平均每單65元；熊貓平均每單75元。基本酬勞上面，熊貓對外送員工待遇，在我看到的那個分享說是贏過Uber Eats。可是當熊貓變成整併的一方的時候，請問外送員他去取得更好的所謂訂價、酬勞的能力也就下降了嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要再觀察。"],["羅委員智強：另外，外送員在這兩家平台上提供了很重要的服務，他們是整個外送體系的支柱，所以兩家公司合併的話，我剛剛前面就講，他們外送員的工作條件會不會受到影響？"],["李主任委員鎂：結合……"],["羅委員智強：本來我有兩家可以選，變一家，公平會反對壟斷不就是這個意味嗎？對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上外送員的選擇變少，這會是一個事實，至於將來他們之間的交易條件等等會有什麼變化，這個需要再進一步觀察。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，幾乎不用觀察，它競價能力就變低了，所以我覺得公平會如果真的在審查此案的過程當中，外送員的權益保障這個部分一定要考量進去，請你們一定要考量進去。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["羅委員智強：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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},{"start":99.352,"end":117.501,"text":"所以基本上是受以申報的起算30工作天內不得進行結合必要時公平會可以審查期間延長60個工作天嘛對不對那我們這個30天的起算期間是從他文件齊備開始算不是從他送件的時候開始算對"},{"start":118.701,"end":133.706,"text":"那我想請問就是說未來的審查重點可能我看了一下就包括市場集中度嘛結合後併購方定價能力和併案協同效果就聯合行為啦然後市場效益"},{"start":134.426,"end":161.366,"text":"那麼對於外送服務來說有別於其他產業的結合外送特別的地方在於說有外送員的權益的問題是比較要注意的所以我想要問一下主委你有在使用這兩家的外送服務嗎有你有沒有發現兩家外送員經常都看著平台之間的價格在做他的決定調整對不對因為他們的價格是不太一樣的對不對"},{"start":163.188,"end":181.514,"text":"我舉個例子外送員我看過他們的攻略分享熊貓每單最低是44元夾單每單最低是加34元然後Uber Eats每單最低40元夾單每單最低加24元"},{"start":183.155,"end":197.891,"text":"那含不定時加碼,不含燙刺獎勵,UberEats平均每單65元,那熊貓平均每單75元。基本操勞上面,那麼熊貓對外送員工的待遇看起來在"},{"start":198.351,"end":216.807,"text":"我看到那個分享說是贏過UberEats可是當熊貓變成診病的一方的時候請問外送員的這個所謂的他的去取得更好的一個所謂的那個定價的一個酬勞的這個能力也就下降了對不對這個要再觀察"},{"start":221.124,"end":238.475,"text":"另外外送人員在這個兩家平台上提供很重要的服務他們是整個外送體系的資助可是所以兩家公司合併的話我剛剛就前面講他們外送人員的工作條件會不會受到影響本來我有兩家可以選變一家"},{"start":239.602,"end":257.297,"text":"公平會反對壟斷不就是這個意味嗎對不對基本上這個外送員的選擇變少這會是一個事實那至於將來他們的之間的這個交易條件等等會有什麼變化這個需要再進一步觀察幾乎不用觀察啦他競價能力就變低了"},{"start":258.138,"end":269.908,"text":"所以我覺得公平會你如果真的在審查此案的過程當中外送員的權益保障這個部分一定要考量進去請你們一定要考量進去以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4537cd673e46a757491f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83fe107b1d166675e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:46:58 - 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Eats要併購foodpanda這件事情，大概最晚何時會有結果？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是5月14日收件，目前還在檢視這些文件是不是齊備，如果齊備了，30天的審查期間，必要的時候可以再延60天。"],["李委員坤城：如果這樣子，是到7月底？如果它文件齊備的話。"],["李主任委員鎂：現在文件還在審查當中，如果需要補正，還要再補正，所以要等補正完畢、文件齊備才開始起算這30天。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們的報告，你有四個審查的重點，最後就看它整體的經濟利益是否大於限制競爭之不利益，再做出准駁的決定嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["李委員坤城：這個整體經濟利益是否大於限制競爭之不利益，可不可以再做說明一下？"],["李主任委員鎂：我簡單的說明，我們觀察結合以後的市場集中程度；再來就是結合以後併購方是不是因為競爭對手減少了，有提高價格的情形；再來就是競爭者變少了，那是不是同業間聯合行為的風險會比較高，這也是考量；再來就是它的交易相對人，也就是今天大家非常關切的外送員、餐廳、消費者……"],["李委員坤城：主委，我聽你這樣講，如果真的被併了之後，真的是整體經濟利益會縮小，因為你所講的，它市場集中度變大了，它現在變成是一個寡占的市場，對不對？它是不是變成一個寡占的市場？"],["李主任委員鎂：整個市場因為它市占率會上來……"],["李委員坤城：所以它是一個寡占市場，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：寡占或者是獨占的市場。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，你們公平會對於寡占跟獨占有一個精準的定義，它是不是一個寡占的市場？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前是寡占，將來結合以後……"],["李委員坤城：就是寡占市場，你們公平會副主委都講這是一個寡占市場了，對不對？所以你講嘛！它是一個寡占市場。然後訂價能力，因為現在只剩下一家，又超過八成，訂價能力是不是都是由它來操控、來決定，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：將來結合以後，它是不是會有提高、提價的情形，這個是要再觀察、再評估。"],["李委員坤城：它合併之後，價格由它來決定嘛！對不對？我們先不管之後它是調漲、調降，它來決定嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：它的服務價格它自己決定。"],["李委員坤城：因為合併之後，價格它自己決定，而且它超過八成的市占率，它具有操控市場價格能力嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是它的市場力很大。"],["李委員坤城：所以我按照你們這四個審查的重點，你說要協同效果（聯合行為），它已經不只是一個聯合行為，因為它就是一個獨占市場，它已經是占八成的市場了，對不對？所以就你的四個審查重點來講，我自己判斷啦，它的整體經濟利益是會縮小的，對於我們社會一般的民眾來講，比現在的兩家以上存在的經濟利益會更小，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個部分，我們委員會會去討論。"],["李委員坤城：好，我請鍾處長，因為你就比較站在消費者立場來看啦！"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為我有看到你們提到對於消費者的影響，第一個，選擇權被削弱嘛！對不對？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後會員既有權益是否存續不確定嘛！"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：對。"],["李委員坤城：然後呢？合作店家的成本提高會轉嫁給消費者嘛！對不對？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：對，這是我們的擔憂。"],["李委員坤城：對。所以主委，你要聽一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：有，我在聽。"],["李委員坤城：鍾處長是代表消費者的，這是消費者保護處提供的資料嘛！所以你們未來在審查這兩家合併的時候，這是站在消費者、一般民眾的重要參考意見，對不對？所以我問一下鍾處長，對於這兩家合併，你認為會有什麼樣的影響？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：我們認為的影響就是如同剛剛委員在我們的報告裡面看到的這一些，因為公平會在審查過程當中，依照以往他們都會開座談會或公聽會，我們到時候會看資料，因為我們現在手上也沒有，所以我們會看報紙上的資料或者開會的資料，並且站在消費者的立場，除了剛剛的三點以外，如果在資料上面有什麼顯示我們認為對消費者不利的部分，我們未來也會在那個會上提供意見給公平會委員會議在做決定的時候給他們參考。"],["李委員坤城：所以站在消費者立場，是否認為這兩家未來萬一合併的話，對消費者來講其實是產生比較不利的影響？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：我們擔憂會這樣啦！"],["李委員坤城：這樣子喔！主委，你要聽清楚，這個是代表消費者的心聲，好不好？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主委、謝謝處長，謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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價格由他來決定嘛對不對我們先不管說他是調漲調降他來決定嘛對不對他的服務價格他自己決定價格他因為合併之後價格他自己決定而且他照顧八成的市佔率嘛他就有操控市場價格能力嘛對不對"},{"start":180.632,"end":204.854,"text":"市場就是他的市場力很大對啊那所以呢我按照你們這個四個審查的重點你說他協同的效果聯合行為他已經不只是一個聯合行為因為他就是一個獨佔市場他已經是佔八成的市場了嘛對不對那所以就這個你的四個審查重點來講我自己判斷啦他的這一個整體經濟利益齁"},{"start":208.104,"end":234.709,"text":"對於這個我們社會的一般的民眾來講他比會現在的這一個兩家以上存在的這個經濟力會更小對不對我想這我們委員會會去討論好我請中處長因為你就比較站在這個消費者立場來看啦因為我看到說你們對於這個消費者影響第一個選擇權被削弱嘛對不對是然後呢這個既有會員既有權益是否存續不確定嘛對不對對"},{"start":236.021,"end":237.062,"text":"主委,您要聽一下。"},{"start":247.744,"end":265.857,"text":"這個中處長還代表消費者的這個是消費者保護處的這個提供的資料嘛對於你們未來在審查這兩家合併的時候這是消費者正在消費者正在一般民眾的一個專案的參考的意見嗎對不對那所以我問一下中處長那你對於這兩家合併你認為會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":269.771,"end":295.698,"text":"我們的影響就是如同剛剛委員在我們的報告裡面看到的這些那所以我們未來就是因為公平會在審查過程當中依照以往他們都會開座談會或公聽會那我們會到時候會看資料因為我們現在手上也沒有所以我們會看報告上的資料或者開會的資料然後針對這個站在消費者的立場除了剛剛三點以外如果在資料上面有什麼顯示我們認為對消費者不利的部分我們也會在那個會上提供意見給公平會"},{"start":296.198,"end":320.568,"text":"委員會議在做決定的時候給他們參考所以站在這個消費者立場是否認為說這兩家未來萬一合併的話對消費者其實來講是產生比較不利的影響我們擔憂會這樣啦這樣子喔對啊欸 這個主委你要聽清楚這個是代表消費者的心聲好不好是好 謝謝主委 謝謝處長 謝謝主席好 謝謝李坤城委員接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"}]}},{"id":"152895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453d76050ec91cd2539f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83e2e11a24dcffeb0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:37:17 - 10:46:48","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":571,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:46:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:37:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時37分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委早。針對今天本席的提案，我在提案說明的時候說明得非常清楚，也就是，科技發展日新月異，生活型態也一直在改變，全球也大力推動環保、減碳等各項措施，全世界大家都一起在追求永續發展，從公務機關一直到民間企業都已經以電子文件取代書面、紙本，現在甚至有很多人在開會的時候不提供紙本，連社團有很多都與時俱進地推動永續發展。多層次傳銷管理法第十三條第二項，本席將那個「不」刪除，希望能夠跟世界接軌。我剛剛也特別聽到主委在報告當中談到，你也非常贊成第十三條的修正。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以待會兒主席在處理的時候能夠完成，我真的非常高興，得到行政部門的支持，尤其藍綠白的同仁也都支持，我們希望能夠跟世界接軌。依本席的提案，將多層次傳銷管理法第十三條原先規定的「不」刪除，推動以電子形式締約，更能夠讓我們符合無紙化的環保趨勢，三讀通過之後，敬請行政部門執行。謝謝！你點頭讓我信心十足。","接下來我們要討論外送平台，因為大家非常關心，據媒體報導，這兩家合併的金額是307億，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：三百多億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這兩家目前是最大家，如果合併之後等於是壟斷市場，應該百分之九十幾了吧？會不會？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要再進一步精算它的市占率，但是是很高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很高。本席要請教，5月15號副主委也對外表示，這個案子送來之後，公平會要評估市場集中度、結合後併購方的訂價能力、合併案的協同效果。合併案的協同效果有一個重點叫做「聯合行為」，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：聯合行為，重點在這裡，還有市場的效益，以這四大原則審查。照您剛才說的，它的成分是目前國內兩大家，占比非常高，幾乎cover全部，同時聯合行為的情況是你們開會考量四大項目下非常重要的一點。本席要請教，從公平會創會以來，只有幾個併購的案子被你們禁止結合，主委，你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說錢櫃跟好樂迪……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你知道有幾家嗎？因為這個案子很特殊……"],["李主任委員鎂：有10家。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：10家？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是10個結合案，有10個案件被我們禁止。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是他們要併的時候被你們禁止。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們禁止。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以有這個例子，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有這個例子，公平會自己也都承認，如果併起來它是什麼呢？是獨占市場的合併案，我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說，如果我們評估的結果，整個經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益相比，經濟利益沒有比較大，那麼這個我們就會禁止。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席再一次強調、再一次請問，公平會你們自己都承認，它是一個獨占市場的合併案，這個解讀正確吧？獨占市場的合併案。"],["李主任委員鎂：併購之後、結合之後，有可能變成一個獨占市場，獨占是一個事實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：獨占是一個事實，併購後……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於獨占事業後續會有什麼行為，這個是另外在法律上有規定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以獨占是一個事實，如果在併購後，當然獨占市場的合併案，這個解讀應該是會成立。接下來我們再討論，公平會你有沒有牙齒啊，你這隻老虎有沒有牙齒啊？你會不會做一個沒有牙齒的老虎，會不會如此？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會，國家賦予我們執法的權力，我們一定會依法執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我很高興聽到這一句話，國家賦予你這個職責，獨立機關、單位，你要做一個有牙齒的老虎，以民、以經濟為基準，以我們整個經濟的秩序為安全考量，因為光是外送人員，他們的權利要怎麼做，也是你們非常重要的考量之一，對不對？是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：外送員、餐廳以及這些消費者都是我們考量的因素。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是考量嘛？我也歡喜聽到整個必要的條件都納入在你們未來審議當中，我們也希望讓外送平台的外送人員都能夠有他們應當有的權益，整個消費市場的秩序能夠安全、能夠穩定，這是本席代表民意所做的要求。最後一個議題，本席要請教，公平會在112年2月份修正了公平交易委員會對於網路廣告案件之處理原則，將網紅這些社群網站用戶明確地納入這個規範，如果有廣告不實的時候，會被處以5萬到2,500萬的罰鍰，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請教主委，因為現在隨便IG、短影音、長篇圖文、平臺直播都非常的多，大家為了業績一直吹捧、一直吹捧，不實的內容我們不斷看到。所以本席要請教，到目前為止，你們罰了幾個案子？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於網路上的不實廣告有相當多處罰的案例。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對於網紅不實的廣告，你們罰了幾個案子？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果網紅本身是一個廣告族，他也受我們第二十一條不實廣告的規範。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然。"],["李主任委員鎂：目前我們對於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以依照這一條，你們罰了幾個案子？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是網紅本身又是廣告族，被我們處罰的案例，目前沒有這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前怎樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前沒有嘛！但是社會上的民眾告訴我，他們很害怕，他點下去、看了，到底真的假的？民眾有這個疑慮。我們設立了這個法，到目前為止，沒有半件的處分，但是主委，社會上的民眾已經有這樣疑慮，所以本席要請教，你們的「公平交易委員會對於網路廣告案件之處理原則」，到現在是零、沒有！我也希望他沒有不實廣告，但是不太可能，因為目前民眾都很疑慮，這樣的情況之下，你們要怎麼樣去調整你的腳步、去遏止這些不實的廣告，讓民眾安心，怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們針對網路上的廣告，我們有監控，如果有疑慮是不實廣告，我們會主動去查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我再給主委民眾的心聲，目前大家的疑慮，但是現在依據法律，到目前為止，你的處分是零，你又有監控，代表著什麼？代表你認為沒有不實廣告嘛！但是跟民眾的落差這麼大、跟民意的落差這麼大，所以本席具體建議，請你好好地再去審視你們的監控方式以及社會的面向，要怎麼樣讓民眾安心，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：把你調整腳步的書面資料給本席，OK嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔召委。","接下來我們請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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"},{"start":184.825,"end":204.998,"text":"結合後併購方的定價能力和併案協同效果和併案的協同效果有一個重點叫做聯合行為是不是聯合行為重點在這裡那市場的效應市場的效益這四大原則你們來做審查"},{"start":205.598,"end":229.883,"text":"按照您剛才說的他的成分是目前國內兩大家那占比是非常高幾乎全部那同時在這個聯合行為的這個情況也是在你們四大開會考量的向下非常重要的一點所以本期要請教從我們公平會創會以來"},{"start":232.972,"end":233.332,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓔"},{"start":253.399,"end":256.603,"text":"十個結合案,有十個案件被我們禁止。"},{"start":268.579,"end":294.407,"text":"如果併起來,它是一個什麼呢?它是一個獨佔市場的合併案。我可以這麼解讀嗎?應該是說,如果我們評估的結果,整個經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利相比,那個經濟利益沒有比較大,那這個我們就會禁止。就本次再次強調,再次請問,公平委員你們自己都承認喔,它是一個獨佔市場的合併案。"},{"start":295.828,"end":296.168,"text":"併購之後．獨佔市場的合併案"},{"start":318.104,"end":333.481,"text":"那如果在併購後那當然這個解讀獨證市場的合併案這個解讀應該是會成立來接下來我們再討論那本席希望公平會你有沒有牙齒啊你這隻老虎有沒有牙齒啊你會不會做一個沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":339.625,"end":368.597,"text":"會不會如此?不會,國家賦予我們執法的權利,我們一定會做法執行。我很高興聽到這一句話,國家賦予你這個職責,獨立機關單位你要做一個有牙齒的老虎,以民、以經濟為基準,以我們整個經濟的秩序為安全考量,因為觀光外送人員他們的權益要怎麼做也是你們非常重要的考量之一,對不對?"},{"start":369.798,"end":395.734,"text":"是不是是不是外送員餐廳這些消費者都是我們考量的因素都是考量嗎好我也歡喜聽到整個必要的條件都納入在你們未來審議當中未來審議當中我們也希望能夠讓外送平台的外送人員都能夠有他們應當有的一個權益那整個消費市場的秩序能夠安全"},{"start":396.294,"end":411.42,"text":"能夠穩定這是本席代表民意所做的這個要求最後一個議題本席要請教公平會在112年2月份修正了公平交易委員會對網路廣告案件之處理原則將網紅這些社群網站用戶他明確的納入這個規範如果有廣告不實的時候會必除以5萬"},{"start":422.165,"end":424.667,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．本院委員楊瓊瓔"},{"start":450.663,"end":455.671,"text":"我們對於網路上的不實廣告有相當多的處罰的案例對於網紅不實的這個廣告你們罰了幾個案子"},{"start":461.449,"end":486.329,"text":"網紅如果他本身是一個廣告組那他也受我們21條不實廣告的規範對當然那目前我們所以依照這一條你們罰了幾個案子我們就是網紅本身又是廣告組被我們處罰的案例目前沒有這個目前怎樣目前沒有目前沒有嘛但是社會民眾告訴我欸我很害怕欸我點下去我看了到底真的假的"},{"start":487.403,"end":506.932,"text":"民眾有這個疑慮到目前為止我們設立了這個法到目前為止沒有辦件的處分但是主委社會上的民眾已經有這樣疑慮所以本席要請教你們針對於網路廣告案件處理方法處理原則到現在是零是零沒有"},{"start":507.412,"end":507.572,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":526.711,"end":545.718,"text":"關於網路上的廣告,我們有監控。如果有疑慮是不是廣告,我們會主動去查。所以我再給你民眾的心聲,目前大家很疑慮,但是你現在依據你的法律,目前為止你的處分是零。你的處分是零,你又有監控,代表你認為沒有不實廣告嗎?"},{"start":549.261,"end":549.361,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔召委"}]}},{"id":"152894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453ce6956db6d625da2bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e8354ed8f2ce0dbea445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:40:02 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10:46:57","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":415,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:46:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:40:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":919,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時40分）謝謝主席，我想請法務部、金管會證期局。"],["主席：請法務部、金管會證期局。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長、金管會證期局，今天有洗錢防制法的提案說明，我也講得很清楚，台灣民眾黨的洗錢防制法版本已經提出來，我看到院版相關的版本，我昨天也質詢了部長。臺灣現在的詐騙已經影響到人民的生活，而且政府應該竭盡所能地打詐，但是在民進黨政府執政8年來，我們為了防制詐騙案件，成立了打詐辦公室，成立了相關的打詐政策綱領，但是我們的打詐是越打越詐，案件從兩萬多件、四十多億，現在已經到了三萬多件、八十多億，所以我們現在提出了打詐專法，今天又提出了洗錢防制專法。但是我今天看到你們的洗錢防制法裡面讓我很詫異的一件事情，就是金管會對於虛擬貨幣的業者現在有相關的專法做管理嗎？有嗎？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，現在還沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在沒有，但是在這次的洗錢防制法第六條，是不是把所有你們該立專法的法條，全部都挪到洗錢防制法上面，由法務部幫你們管理？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，第六條如果通過之後，關於授權的子法，這邊規定由中央目的事業主管機關來訂定，就是金管會來訂定。"],["黃委員珊珊：我要跟次長說，你們法務部現在的問題是，我到立法院將近三個多月，從2月1日開始跟金管會不斷地討論虛擬貨幣業者怎麼樣監管，他們從頭到尾就是不想管，也就是說，我們所謂的虛擬貨幣新興業者、這些新興的科技相關的產業，他們其實跟洗錢、詐欺是息息相關的，但是金管會從頭到尾就是不想管！訂了一個指導原則，請他們成立公會，請公會去自律，今天突然間又把所有東西丟在洗錢防制法，交給法務部來管理，看起來洗錢防制法裡面有一大半、尤其是虛擬貨幣業者的部分，全部都在幫它管理，次長，你瞭解我的意思嗎？如果今天洗錢防制法是幫金管會去管理業者，這是很可笑的！"],["徐次長錫祥：我想洗錢防制法不是一個部會單獨的業務，這是跨部會的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是對於業者的監管，應該是由它定專法之後監管，那才是洗錢防制法要處理的行為，不是洗錢防制法來幫它管理業者，這是我個人的意見。而且我也認為我們不應該把管理這些業別的責任丟到洗錢防制法來當母法，這是你們法務部用這個母法來幫它監管，你知道嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我想主責洗錢防制法是我們的義務……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，但是業者的監管是金管會應該去訂出相關的管理規則，而且業者、業別經過政府認可之後，你才來管這些業別的洗錢要怎麼管制。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：對我來說，從法的角度、從體例的角度，都不應該把對於業者的監管放在洗錢防制法讓你來管，今天我的意見是如此，請次長回去重新跟金管會好好地討論。金管會從頭到尾就是不想管，包括他們跟我們溝通的所有過程就是它只要訂規則、業者去自律。自律是什麼樣的狀況？就是不管的意思啦。","第二個，第三方支付也是這一次重中之重，可是第三方支付又是數發部在管，對吧？所以面對我們國家同樣的管理機制、各種不同的主管業務，法務部任重道遠。現在他們都是洗錢的管道之一，而洗錢又跟詐騙息息相關，所以所有的法案裡面都應該由一個主責單位，就是我們民眾黨所提出的，相關辦法裡面很重要的是法務部應該建置一個完整的平臺。你知道現在業者怎麼報嗎？自己跟高檢署聯絡，自己跟調查局聯絡，自己跟警察局聯絡，所有的虛幣業者都是做這樣的事，他想要配合，但他不知道怎麼配合。有的業者是好的，有聯絡好，沒有聯絡的業者想要跟銀行溝通、瞭解他們的帳戶跟銀行的關係，卻沒有聯絡管道，這是我覺得很詭異的地方。如果中華民國政府要打詐，不是這種打法，越打越詐是怎麼回事呢？次長，你對於這個平臺有沒有什麼意見？要不要建立一個完整的平臺，而不是由金管會做一個、法務部做一個，金管會在前面管銀行管得嚴得要命，這些相關的人全部不管；然後這些平臺業者變成要自己聯絡；第三個，你法務部在後面收爛攤子。","次長，今天這個法很清楚，既然要提，我們就提一個完整的版本。第二個，該金管會的責任就丟回去給它，不要幫它承擔監管的責任！你瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：多久之內？既然這個法召委要排審了，下一次我們希望把監管跟責任、洗防的行為切開，這部法律裡面看起來就是……你說我們的版本有問題，我才認為你們的版本問題很大！"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，是不是還是依照我們這個版本，相關管理的子法再由相關的部會來制定，這樣子有法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要說的是，你的洗錢防制法不是在幫金管會管理業者啦。"],["徐次長錫祥：子法的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：你的管理業者的辦法應該是它另外定一個專法，這是它的責任，不是洗錢防制法的責任。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：洗錢防制法在管行為，不是在管業別，對吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：拜託你了，好嗎？我想回到體例上面、回到正常的管道，讓金管會負起它該負的責任，證期局也一樣，我希望你們負起該監管的責任，該立法就立法，不要推到洗錢防制法，謝謝。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝次長。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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10:39:53","影片長度":"00:14:22","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":862,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:39:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:25:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時25分）謝謝召委，請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，針對剛才召委說要把你趕下台，這個我聽了非常shock、非常震驚。其實鍾佳濱委員，過去我們在第10屆大家也是同事，我的感受上對於他這個人，我覺得他還蠻穩健理性的，但是剛才說要把你從主席台趕下來，我覺得蠻震驚的，不像過去讓我感覺的他還是蠻理性、作風蠻溫文儒雅的一位立法委員。在我們委員會質詢時對秘書長有這樣子的言詞，其實我覺得很不恰當。所以召委，我不想說讓我對你的觀感有所改變，我還是希望大家理性問政，而不要涉及到是說：「秘書長，我要把你趕下台。」怎麼趕？暴力嗎？你可以嘴巴上講，很多委員在質詢包括行政官員，我們也會說：「你下台、你下台。」大家言詞交鋒，但如果要用這種暴力的行為，我想這個絕對要受到譴責，很不恰當。","回歸正題，秘書長，星期二院會發生一件事情，我們立法委員在審查國會改革五法的時候，有好幾位立委都被在媒體台上面的某位委員的國會助理詹守忠，用他的不曉得是手機、攝影機還是相機去拍攝，刻意拍攝我們的委員，去窺視委員手機的內容。你看一下照片，有好幾位委員，包含陳永康、賴士葆，還有高金素梅、陳菁徽委員，故意對著委員的手機，窺視委員的手機正在看什麼。請問秘書長，當天委員有跟您提出台上有人正在偷拍他，當時你怎麼處理？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時王委員來台上跟我說，我立即就請他們去處理。可能是某個委員的助理在……"],["林委員思銘：叫詹守忠。"],["周秘書長萬來：我們是有請他……因為他有證件，助理有證件。當然也不可能在場上做攝影的動作，所以我們請他離場。"],["林委員思銘：是。他做這樣的一個動作，而且po到他的臉書上面意圖散布。請問秘書長，這種行為是不是構成刑法上的罪責？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只在行政上對於議場的管理會去加強，就是對於這個的處理，至於有沒有涉及刑責，很抱歉，我也不太瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：那我們請法務部，法務部次長，我也大概讓你看一下，刑法的妨害秘密罪章規定得很清楚，不得窺視、偷拍人家非公開的活動。那您認為這位助理在我們的媒體區上面，從台上拍攝我們委員，他不是拍攝委員整個公開活動，而是針對他的手機內容，拉近距離去偷拍、去窺視他的手機內容，請問這樣符不符合刑法第三百十五條之一的「無故利用工具或設備窺視、竊聽他人非公開之活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位」？構不構成這條罪？"],["徐次長錫祥：關於這個案子，從委員出示的畫面我不太能夠掌握他到底看得到、看不到委員的談話內容。就這樣一個畫面，如果只是一個人坐在那裡看手機，這樣的動作……"],["林委員思銘：其實有好幾張相片，都可以看得出來啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：這樣子看……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個部分……"],["徐次長錫祥：委員，目前我看那個照片是看不太到……"],["林委員思銘：因為它有點比較小。"],["徐次長錫祥：對、對、對。如果看起來只是一個人在那裡滑手機，這個動作……"],["林委員思銘：好，沒關係，既然你看不清楚，我體諒你啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：但是其實從他這個行為舉止裡面，我們看得出來其實他是故意要去窺視我們國民黨籍的立法委員現在手機到底在談論什麼、在看什麼。他的意圖非常清楚，他是無故以照相的方式來竊錄、竊看他人的言論還有談話，這其實是滿清楚的。所以這個部分我就在這邊提告發。這位詹守忠先生，希望你們趕快予以偵辦。因為秘書長很客氣，沒有把他移送法辦，其實這已經涉及相關的犯罪嫌疑，所以我在這邊正式告發這位詹守忠先生涉及違反刑法第三百十五條之一的妨害秘密罪。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，這是一個告訴乃論的罪，就是被拍攝的委員要提出告訴。"],["林委員思銘：好，我們會請被拍攝的委員趕快提告。"],["徐次長錫祥：檢察官就會依法來調查。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。","請問秘書長還有什麼要補充的？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟林委員補充一下，我們當時有依照規定請他離場。"],["林委員思銘：有離場嘛！就是把他趕出場了。","次長，我再請問一下，針對這次行政院版的洗錢防制法修正草案第二條有關洗錢的定義，第一款將原本的「意圖掩飾或隱匿特定犯罪所得來源，或使他人逃避刑事追訴，而移轉或變更特定犯罪所得」中的「意圖」二字刪除，請問次長，刪除的原因是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：因為我們是參照德國立法例，德國刑法第二百六十一條對於掩飾型洗錢犯罪的定性是採所謂的抽象危險犯，我們也是一樣，只要行為人客觀上有隱匿或掩飾行為，且其主觀上知悉或可得知悉財物或財產上利益是特定犯罪所得，就會構成本款之要件，沒有必要把特定的意圖，也就是意圖犯放在條文裡面。我們覺得這樣既方便認定，也不影響法律的構成要件。"],["林委員思銘：我看你們在立法說明裡面提到，意圖隱匿、掩飾好像跟我們刑法體例有所扞格。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：其實我看起來不會啊！我們刑法裡面有很多意圖營利或意圖使自己或第三人不法所有這樣的構成要件都寫在我們的法條裡面。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以原本有「意圖掩飾或隱匿」這樣的構成要件，但是你們現在把這個主觀的要件拿掉，這個我看起來……"],["徐次長錫祥：報告……"],["林委員思銘：剛才你解釋得很多，但我還是覺得把它拿掉在適用上可能會有疑義。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，基本上犯罪我們都會分成客觀要件和主觀要件，不會因為「意圖」這兩個字拿掉以後，就不需要主觀要件。這個主觀要件必須主觀上知悉或可得知悉所接受之財物或財產上利益是他人特定犯罪所得……"],["林委員思銘：次長，這我都瞭解。"],["徐次長錫祥：對、對、對。"],["林委員思銘：次長，其實我是覺得原本的條文把它寫得更明確一點，因為現在把「意圖」兩個字拿掉，感覺上雖然你剛剛說客觀上可能我們的檢察官、法官或是檢調能夠去做一個判斷……"],["徐次長錫祥：是！"],["林委員思銘：但實際上好像比較沒那麼具體。看起來啦！你思考一下啦！這是我的建議啦！我覺得把「意圖」兩個字拿掉滿奇怪的。意圖隱匿、意圖掩飾，這很清楚啊！構成要件非常清楚，把它拿掉說是因為要參照德國的立法例……"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們是參照德國的立法例……"],["林委員思銘：我是請你們再研議啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：我再請教一下，行政院修正草案第十七條是新增的，它的規定是得向相關公務機關或非公務機關調取必要之資料，並得分送國內外相關機關。說明欄說這是參考FATF評鑑方法論所建議的準則而增訂的。所以我要請教次長，在尚未增訂本條條文時，偵查洗錢案件是否有遇到任何調取資料的困難？"],["徐次長錫祥：目前的運作都是根據法務部調查局組織法、法務部調查局處務規程，以及法務部調查局辦理防制洗錢及打擊資恐業務作業要點等行政組織法或內部行政規則來執行調取，我們是把它法制化。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我瞭解，我現在問你的是說，在沒有這一條以前，你們……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有問題！"],["林委員思銘：你們偵查這些案件有遇到任何困難嗎？不會吧！"],["徐次長錫祥：行政機關還是都會配合，但是評鑑的時候就認為我們沒有法制化，這對我們來講……"],["林委員思銘：所以你們想把它明確規定出來？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，有一個法源的依據。"],["林委員思銘：非常好，我贊同。但是我也有個疑問，就是載明調取的資料得分送國內外相關機關，那麼國外也會將他們調查的資料傳送給我們嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個要互惠。"],["林委員思銘：對嘛！要互惠嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對！我們後面也有……"],["林委員思銘：要有互惠的……"],["徐次長錫祥：我們要互惠，要有一定的條件。"],["林委員思銘：現在有哪幾個國家已經跟我們建立這樣的平等互惠的制度？有沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個要調查局才能夠回答。"],["林委員思銘：請調查局洗錢防制處處長簡要回答，有沒有？有幾個國家了？"],["吳處長月萍：報告委員，現在艾格蒙的會員有174個國家，所以我們透過艾格蒙的安全網路，可以跟174個會員國交換情資。"],["林委員思銘：所以已經有174個國家跟我們建立互惠平等的機制，就是我們的資料分享給它，他們也會把他們的資料分享給我們。"],["吳處長月萍：對，基於平等互惠的原則。"],["林委員思銘：我想這個非常重要，否則我們空有這個條文，如果沒有平等互惠的機制，我們把資料分享給他們，結果他們卻沒有……","就是人家把錢洗到國外去，我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料，在查證上面就會非常困難。所以我們訂了這個條文之後，國外一樣會依照您剛剛講的什麼艾……"],["吳處長月萍：艾格蒙聯盟安全網路。"],["林委員思銘：也會提供給我們？"],["吳處長月萍：對。"],["林委員思銘：分享他們的資料給我們？"],["吳處長月萍：對，現行都有在分享。"],["林委員思銘：他們也有相同的洗錢防制條文嗎？跟我們一樣對等的條文嗎？"],["吳處長月萍：因為所有的金融情資，FIU（金融情報中心）的相關法制要符合國際規範，國際規範FATF的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換。"],["林委員思銘：所以我國也已經建立這樣一個制度了。好，謝謝。","請主席再給我1分鐘，我要請問地政司王成機司長。"],["主席：好，1分鐘。"],["林委員思銘：司長。"],["王司長成機：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：我簡單問你，我們新竹科學園區三期還有台知園區在上個月和這個月陸續召開專案小組會議，結論分別是三期要送土徵小組繼續審查，台知園區前天是說要舉辦公聽會，所以請問司長，就你的業管來講，未來地政司就這兩個案子要如何來做相關徵收案件的推動？"],["王司長成機：跟委員簡單報告，目前還在都委會嘛！都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議，未來送到地政司這邊的話，我們是進行整個公益性、必要性的評估報告，我們會按照這個程序來排公益性、必要性的報告。"],["林委員思銘：台知呢？他們現在講到要開公聽會，要開幾場公聽會？"],["王司長成機：開公聽會還是在都委會這個階段。"],["林委員思銘：不是您的業管？"],["王司長成機：不是。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["王司長成機：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請翁委員曉玲質詢。翁委員曉玲，翁委員曉玲不在。","請黃委員珊珊發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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我想這個非常重要否則我們空口這條文如果沒有平等互惠的一個機制那我們把資料分享給他結果他們都沒有都沒有把他們就是人家把錢洗到國外去我們拿不到這些國家分享給我們的資料我們對查證上面就非常困難所以說就是國外他們我們訂了這個條文之後國外一樣會依照你剛才講的什麼愛德蒙"},{"start":737.011,"end":737.352,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":751.971,"end":756.453,"text":"國際規範的規定就是你要跟會員國做情資交換是是是所以我國也已經建立這樣的一個制度了規範好謝謝主席再給我一分鐘我請那個地政司王晨基市長"},{"start":783.03,"end":795.497,"text":"市長,我簡單問你,我想我們新竹園區科學園區三期還有台資園區在上個月及這個月都陸續召開了我們的專案小組會議。結論其中一個那個三期是說送土珍小組繼續來做一個審查。"},{"start":803.982,"end":822.262,"text":"那台資源區就是說昨天講說前天講說要舉辦公聽會所以請問市長未來地政司就這兩個案子的就是從你的業館來講未來您如何來這個做相關的相關這個徵收案件的一個推動"},{"start":823.122,"end":847.679,"text":"跟委員簡單報告目前還在都委會嘛那都委會專案小組有這樣一個建議那未來送到地政司這邊的話那是我們進行那個整個公益性必要性的一個評估報告那我們會按照這個程序來排這個公益性必要性的一個報告台資呢台資現在因為你講要開公聽會嘛"},{"start":849.58,"end":856.725,"text":"大概開幾場公聽會?開公聽會類是在還是在都委會這個階段。是是,不是您的夜館。不是。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531fb5a56f7a54541f5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e835c629a4d2c92ff0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:35:25 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10:46:43","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":678,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:46:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:35:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時35分）有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：非常恭喜主委就任，您的經歷非常的豐富也備受肯定，在清大、成大服務期間，大家都讚譽有加，所以我們對您的期待也非常非常深，希望可以為我國的科學跟學術發展帶來一個嶄新的氣象。","首先我想要請教主委的是，未來是AI的世代，新的內閣也不停的提到，像卓院長說組行動內閣；賴總統的就職演說也提到現在的臺灣掌握半導體先進製程技術，站在AI革命的中心，是全球民主供應鏈的關鍵，也影響世界的經濟發展，以及人類的幸福與繁榮；昨天主委在受訪的時候也提到AI導入全產業，除了學界開發技術之外，關鍵在於應用落地，而陳炳宇副主委就是AI的專家。其實我自己從2022年ChatGPT剛上線的時候就開始使用，我是非常熱衷的在使用ChatGPT，包括最近的Copilot，或是我之前也常常用的Gamma去做簡報，於是我就丟了這個問題問ChatGPT，AI可以做什麼？它帶來的危害又是什麼？ChatGPT告訴我，它可以做很多事情，可以做自然語言學習，還有機器的學習、深度學習、數據的分析和預測等等，非常非常多，我想大家對它現在的應用已經非常熟悉了，但是它也告訴我，它可以帶來的危害可能是失業、職業的轉變、隱私問題甚至安全威脅，惡意使用AI技術可能導致的問題包含了駭客攻擊、假新聞、虛假信息和網路攻擊，所以就是說AI可能帶來好處，也有壞處，所以AI要發展，但也需要控管。例如剛剛我問了AI可以做什麼，就可以得到很多不同的好處的回答，例如我們現在也知道在許多的教學場域，包含剛剛大家也都有提到的臺語學習機器人。但是如果錯誤的使用AI也有可能會有負面的問題，譬如可能造成詐騙更難防範，包括偽造影像、偽造聲音等等。所以我想請教主委，對於AI可能帶來的影響，你的看法是什麼？那我們應該樂觀，還是持平，還是需要擔憂什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意委員的看法，就是它是一個非常重要、非常有用的工具，但是這個工具可以做好的事情，也可以做壞的事情，所以一定要有所規範，我們現在在制定AI基本法的時候會兩者兼顧，也就是在保障人權、維護我們的安全的狀態之下，能夠去兼顧產業的發展，協助社會上的各行各業發展得更好，這是我們現在的態度。"],["張委員雅琳：我想主委應該也有掌握最近OpenAI的團隊Leike說的，AI可以說是一把雙面刃，在建造一個比人類更聰明的機器上，本質是一個危險的工作，所以剛剛提到的AI基本法就是我接下來要問的問題。我國現在是參考了英、美、日的作法，先有指引才去立法，副主委昨天也說基本法會在今年底出爐，所以我想確認一下這個時程還是在今年底呢？還是你們可以再把這個時程往前提？"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛才也有幾位委員關心這個事情，我們會努力的來提前，希望在10月底可以送到行政院。"],["張委員雅琳：在這邊我想要插個題目，就是我剛才聽到陳秀寳委員在講TAIDE這件事情，那我也想再請教一下主委，你認為TAIDE中文版跟ChatGPT……因為現在大家都在做中文版，TAIDE的競爭優勢到底在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是個好問題，當然我們訓練的資料很重要，我們建了這個平臺，它本身是一個平臺，我們當然鼓勵各行各業來應用它，但是在應用的時候，其實在應用範圍裡面的資料也很重要，需要把它客製化，就像人在學習一樣，人可以學習不同的專長，你要讓他全能很困難。"],["張委員雅琳：我瞭解，我只是很好奇我們做的TAIDE版本跟ChatGPT、跟這麼多的版本相較，到底它的競爭力在哪裡？我覺得這非常重要，因為如果我們還要持續投資在這件事情上，我們的獨特性跟差異性就非常重要，像我們在半導體的製程上，也許醫學或是其他等等的領域，可能還是我們應該要發展的重點。針對這個部分，我想我們會後再邀請主委來繼續討論好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：因為AI是趨勢，針對AI除了剛剛講的安全控管，它跟超級電腦的算力大有關係，也就是算力越高，模組的效能就越高，現在我們是用臺灣杉二號在運算，但我們應該都非常清楚我們的算力從全球排名第二十名掉到第八十六名，日本跟韓國都積極在部署，而且現在排名都比我們更前面了。算力不僅影響到經濟發展或半導體等等，它對於我們的地震、氣候資訊，還有我們的災害因應部署都非常重要，所以我非常關心這件事情。我們預計在112年底要完成臺灣杉四號的主機建置，預計取代臺灣杉一號，而現在作為AI運算的主機是臺灣杉二號，算力是9PF，預計今年要完成16PF的超級電腦，目標是要達到200到300PF，我想請問在時程上面今年會完成16PF的超級電腦嗎？如果目標是200到300PF，預計要再投入多少的經費呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，可不可以允許我請國網中心主任來說明？"],["張委員雅琳：可以。"],["張主任朝亮：報告委員，今年16PF只是第一期的先期建置，明年會另外投入40億，會建立大概120PF。"],["張委員雅琳：所以今年是完成16PF，是在今年底的時候完成？"],["張主任朝亮：今年年底的時候。"],["張委員雅琳：年底是完成16PF，然後明年是……"],["張主任朝亮：明年大概會有100PF到120PF左右。"],["張委員雅琳：100PF到120PF？"],["張主任朝亮：對，總共五年的期程，希望能建到200PF到300PF之間。"],["張委員雅琳：針對這部分，其實日本跟韓國都已經達到非常非常高的算力，我們現在這樣子的速度是不是有點太慢了？"],["張主任朝亮：我們會參考他們……"],["張委員雅琳：我們是不是要再來檢討一下？因為這真的是攸關到……像賴總統也一直非常強調，這件事情引導了整個國家的發展，所以我希望主委一定要看看我們可以怎麼樣再加強部署，如果有經費不足的地方，儘量去爭取相關預算，一定要持續支持超級電腦的開發，謝謝。"],["張主任朝亮：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來我想要請教有關於延續性的政策問題，也就是針對太空中心，因為太空計畫在賴總統這一次的就職演說當中也有講到這是我們重中之重的一個重點。太空中心在2005年成立的時候，當時是隸屬於國家實驗研究院，在2022年三讀通過國家太空中心設置條例，所以現在已經變成一個行政法人，按照現在中心的規劃，2023年要招募300人，擴充人力到600人的規模，希望在2025年達到600人。我想要問的是，其實現在行政院已經核定第三期國家太空科技發展長程計畫，主要投入的經費有251億元，要發展高解析度光學遙測衛星、超高解析度光學衛星，以及合成孔徑雷達衛星，組成完整的衛星星系，來守護臺灣、保障國人的生命安全。然後去年蔡總統參加國際太空年會的時候又再加碼400億，我想請問主委，現在預算增加了，任務增加了，牽扯到第三期的太空計畫修正，我想瞭解的是目前的修正計畫到了哪邊？任務增加，人是不是也需要增加呢？這部分的規劃又是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請太空中心主任來說明。"],["吳主任宗信：謝謝委員，我跟委員報告一下，有關第三期的太空修正計畫，我們現在正在緊密的討論當中，我們希望今年可以……"],["張委員雅琳：大概是今年什麼時候呢？其實這個也好像有蠻長一段時間了，從去年10月到現在都已經加碼……"],["陳處長國樑：現在來講的話，就是裡面內容細節的一些研擬，大概是今年年底的時候我們希望能夠提出來。"],["張委員雅琳：今年年底提出來是嗎？目前在人數上面、招募的工作人力，因為……"],["吳主任宗信：我們招募是預定到2028年的時候有670人，根據我們原來的擴展計畫。今年應該是107人，我印象中明年應該是五十幾個，不是80個，我們是這樣逐步增加。我們增加人數的計畫是根據我們想要做的擴展計畫……"],["張委員雅琳：不好意思，再給我一點時間，讓我問完這一題。其實原本的計畫……我們已經加碼超過400億，但人數還是維持之前600人的規模，那這些錢和計畫的人力在哪裡？"],["吳主任宗信：其實原來是有一個太空三期計畫250億，但是從2021開始就有比較top down的B 5G低軌道通訊衛星，但是它沒有掛在裡面，其實那時候已經有政策，預算也一直在進，我們有根據這兩個加總起來人數的鋪排就是你聽到的670個，就是這樣。"],["張委員雅琳：所以就是251億再加400億之後，你的編制就是671人嗎？"],["吳主任宗信：基本上是往這個方向。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，因為我的發言時間已經到了。不好意思，可能我們之後再約時間來詳細討論這個部分。"],["吳主任宗信：好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，主委請回。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.632843750000003,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.184093750000002,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.403468750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.49596875,"end":21.765968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.42971875,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.27846875,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.47659375,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.42346875000001,"end":134.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.38534375,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.34784375,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.73846875,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.83909375000002,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":182.90534375000001,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.61659375000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.97096875000003,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.18721875,"end":215.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.21659375000002,"end":237.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.76596875,"end":248.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.53221875000003,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.01596875,"end":267.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.07346875,"end":283.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.41659375,"end":288.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.06596875,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.46971875,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.82659375000003,"end":337.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.10909375,"end":348.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.71909375,"end":384.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.79346875000005,"end":409.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":410.65034375000005,"end":413.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.27034375000005,"end":412.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.60346875000005,"end":413.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.35846875000004,"end":424.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.47096875000005,"end":427.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.05284375,"end":436.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.45221875000004,"end":441.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.32909375,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.35721875,"end":453.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.98159375,"end":451.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.38221875000005,"end":475.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.65284375000005,"end":476.29409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.37846875,"end":491.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.74721875000006,"end":513.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.56659375,"end":543.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.76034375,"end":558.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.25159375,"end":566.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.32221875,"end":570.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":570.38909375,"end":572.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.02596875,"end":572.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":572.1272187500001,"end":572.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.1440937500001,"end":572.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.35909375,"end":578.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.00034375,"end":574.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":579.09659375,"end":584.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.31096875,"end":589.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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GPT因為現在大家都在做中文版喔我們台德的競爭優勢到底在哪裡"},{"start":287.392,"end":301.828,"text":"這個好問題當然我們訓練的這個資料很重要但是即使我們建了這個平台它本身是一個平台我們當然鼓勵各行各業來應用它但是應用的時候其實在應用的範圍裡面的資料也很重要"},{"start":303.21,"end":324.41,"text":"需要是一個把它客製化就像人在學習一樣人可以學習不同的專長你要讓他全能很困難我了解我了解但是我只是很好奇就是說我們做的台德GPT這個台德的版本跟CHAT GPT跟這麼多的到底競爭力在哪裡我覺得這是非常重要因為我們如果還要持續投資這件事情上我們的獨特性跟差異性"},{"start":325.351,"end":347.542,"text":"這就非常重要,像我們在半導體的製程上也許醫學或是等等的領域可能還是我們應該要發展的重點那這個部分我想我們可以會後再繼續的跟邀請主委來繼續討論好不好那接下來就是回到就是說因為AI是趨勢那AI的這個除了剛剛講的安全控管那它跟超級電腦的算力大有關係就是說"},{"start":348.783,"end":372.003,"text":"我們的算力越高我們的模組的效能就越高現在我們是用台灣32號在運算但是我們應該都非常清楚知道我們的算力從全球排名第20名掉到第86名而且日本跟韓國都積極的在部署而且現在排名都比我們更前面了但是因為這個算力不僅是影響到經濟發展或半導體等等"},{"start":372.583,"end":384.519,"text":"他對於我們的地震、氣候的資訊還有我們的災害因應部署都非常重要所以我非常關心這件事情那我們現在預計在112年底要完成台灣三四號的主機建制"},{"start":386.268,"end":387.95,"text":"可不可以允許我請國防中心主任 可以"},{"start":415.376,"end":440.749,"text":"報告委員今年16這只是第一期先期的建制明年會投入另外40億會建一個大概120配搭符號所以今年是完成16還是在今年底的時候完成今年年底的時候年底16然後明年是今年會有一個對會大概120左右100到120左右100到120對那總共5年的期程希望能建到200到300配搭符號之間"},{"start":441.397,"end":463.288,"text":"但是我想要因為這個的部分因為其實日本跟韓國都已經達到非常非常高的一個算力了那我們現在這樣子的速度是不是有點太慢了我們是不是要再來檢討一下因為這真的是攸關到像賴總統一直非常強調這件事情引導了整個國家的發展所以這件事情我希望主委一定要來"},{"start":463.988,"end":468.351,"text":"關於一個延續性的政策問題就是太空中心因為太空計畫也是在這一次賴總統的在就職演說也有講到這個是我們非常重中之重的一個重點"},{"start":492.799,"end":512.554,"text":"那太空中心在2005年成立的時候呢當時是設立這個國家實驗研究院在2022年的時候三讀通過這個國家太空中心設置條例所以現在已經變成一個行政法人那依照我們現在中心的規劃呢2023年是要招募300人擴充人力到600人的規模"},{"start":515.011,"end":542.917,"text":"預估希望可以在2025年達到600人但是我想問因為現在行政院其實已經核定了第三期國家太空科技的發展長程計畫主要投入了經費有251億元要發展高解析度光學遙測衛星超高解析度光學衛星以及合成孔徑雷達衛星組成完整的衛星星系來守護台灣保障國人的生命安全"},{"start":543.997,"end":571.906,"text":"然後在去年的時候蔡總統參加國際太空年會的時候又再加碼了這400億那我想問國主委就是說預算增加了任務增加了牽扯到第三期的太空計畫修正但是目前我想了解的是目前的修正計畫到了哪邊然後呢任務增加這些人是不是也需要增加呢那這部分規劃又是什麼是那我請太空中心主任"},{"start":573.793,"end":599.776,"text":"謝謝委員,跟委員報告一下這個第三期的太空的修正期我們現在正在緊密的討論當中我們希望是今年可以投到今年大概是什麼時候呢?因為這個好像也蠻長一段時間的去年10月到現在都已經加碼要那現在來講的話就是在裡面內容細節的一些嚴明那大概是今年年底的時候呢我們希望能夠提出來"},{"start":600.376,"end":624.849,"text":"今年年底提出來是嗎那我們目前人數上面招募的工作人力我們真的招募是預定到2028的時候有670個根據我們原來這樣的擴展的計畫今年是應該107明年大概是我印象是五十幾個不是八十個我們是逐步這樣增加所以我們在增加人數的計畫是根據我們想要做的擴展計畫"},{"start":625.789,"end":640.197,"text":"對可是因為我但是主任不好意思想請教一下喔這個有點時間齁讓我問完這一題就是說因為我們其實原本的計畫齁但是我們加碼超過400億了欸那我們的人數還是在跟之前的600人的規模是不是那這些錢"},{"start":642.219,"end":662.996,"text":"計劃的人力在哪裡?其實原來是有一個太空三棋250億但是在2021開始就有一個比較搭檔像B5G低軌道通訊衛星但是它沒有掛在裡面其實那時候已經有政策預算一直在進行所以我們有根據這一個兩個加總起來人數的鋪排就是你聽到了670個就是這樣所以那次已經250億加410之後你的編制就是671嗎?基本上是往這個方向"},{"start":668.681,"end":668.842,"text":"張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"152891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453c85bd9664e8b15e19f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e83913ea9d1078d6b435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:28:11 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這個政見我們要講這個是因為你知道依據這個資誠2023年企業併購白皮書他們去統計了2022年的總計的企業併購有117件"},{"start":81.124,"end":98.625,"text":"其中61%是外資來台併購23%是國內併購然後前十大的併購案件中只有一件是金融併購那為什麼我們特別要指出金融併購這個問題是等一下再來談"},{"start":101.408,"end":124.435,"text":"那你們今天的業務報告其實你們也有談到說要落實賴總統的政見的規劃你們沒有提出修法的規劃而是在既有的併購的時候在既有的商定流用的原則之下提出了行政指導要供勞工或工會作為協商參考"},{"start":125.695,"end":135.096,"text":"那因為這樣子的話其實是背離了我之前說本來賴總統這樣說的時候大家社會還有勞工團體都相當高度的期待"},{"start":137.386,"end":165.952,"text":"但你今天的業務報告蠻令人失望的那為什麼這個呢因為現在的企業併購法涉及到勞工權益的部分就在企業併購法的15到17條那企業併購法裡面只規定金融併購金融機構的併購要改組或轉讓的時候員工享有的權利要用勞基法去辦理"},{"start":166.913,"end":168.277,"text":"那所以在這樣子會變成說 抱歉"},{"start":173.53,"end":199.087,"text":"金融機構他讓你回到勞基法第20條去檢視勞工的權益保障那金融機構以外的呢我們一般的企業併購勞工的權益如果回到企業併購法裡面其實幾乎是沒有保障的那金融機構的併購是多一層他可以回到受勞基法第20條的保障所以在這個裡面"},{"start":203.956,"end":228.112,"text":"我剛剛一開始就講了企業併購裡面前十大裡面只有一件是金融併購受到勞基法保障的前十大只有一件那其他都要回到這個企業併購法但企業併購法或是勞基法第20條其實對當事人保障都非常非常的少"},{"start":229.566,"end":229.746,"text":"稍稍稍"},{"start":250.834,"end":251.274,"text":"﹚林淑芬﹚林淑芬﹚"},{"start":274.363,"end":277.486,"text":"那顯然要做什麼?第一個要確定要有工作啊第二個勞動權益至少也不能改啊那為什麼講這個呢?你知道在歐盟啊2001年啊20幾年前他們的2001、231G指令還有德國的民法的613A條他們不是用商定流用欸"},{"start":301.207,"end":320.6,"text":"他們處理企業併購不是用商定流用原則而是秉持著買賣不破雇佣原則他規定勞工的勞動契約關係在企業跟事業單位之全部或一部分轉讓給這個在轉讓的時候自動隨同這個契約要自動隨同移轉給受讓人"},{"start":331.929,"end":338.58,"text":"保護勞工免於單純因企業轉讓而喪失工作而且不只如此還要給勞工資訊權、諮商權還要給勞工工人意義權"},{"start":344.324,"end":364.515,"text":"所以在這個裡面在企業併購的時候勞工有資訊權資訊權在歐盟或是德國的民法的條文裡面都講到讓與人即受讓人應通知轉讓所涉及的勞工及其代表下列的事項轉讓或預期的轉讓日轉讓的原因轉讓對勞工所產生的法律、經濟跟社會上的影響"},{"start":373.2,"end":378.988,"text":"然後預期對勞工所採取的措施所以這樣的資訊權還有諮商權還有意義權去到確保在企業併購裡面的最弱勢的人就是勞工"},{"start":390.464,"end":406.428,"text":"這個勞工工作還到照他們的買賣不破的僱傭的這個精神裡面這個條文裡面第一個一定確保還有工作不但確保還有工作勞動條件都一併要轉讓勞動契約都要一併轉讓所以我們在期待的是說"},{"start":415.401,"end":435.401,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":435.641,"end":457,"text":"所以他當然是非常的有利於雇主去基於重新整合人力資源經營效率的目的但是呢你要想想看這樣子受衝擊的就是勞工勞工失去就業然後在這個裡面大量的解雇或者是解雇"},{"start":458.061,"end":482.627,"text":"所以在歐盟的這個指令裡面他本來程序當中的勞動契約或勞動關係所產生的權利義務都要一併轉讓我們跟人家差太多了勞工他不會因為你企業併購而失去了你的工作安全益部長我們真的是你看一年這樣子企業併購多少件我剛剛講的"},{"start":485.011,"end":492.776,"text":"一百多件,那這樣的受衝擊的勞工有多少人?對,這我必須要再來瞭解。署長你知道嗎?一年喔!每年都有喔!你們沒有統計數字。不過委員這個您講得很對,因為我們企業併購其實在臺灣才剛剛"},{"start":508.404,"end":527.193,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":527.393,"end":536.975,"text":"我們就是不能接受商定流用原則我們想要的是買賣不破雇佣我會往這個方向來研議處理勞基法第20條它裡面就是僅限於事業單位的改組轉讓它只談到說我保障年資水桶移轉年資可是我都沒工作我直接fire你就好了我幹嘛留住你的年資呢那勞動條件它都可以隨時改的"},{"start":555.038,"end":555.098,"text":"林淑芬．"},{"start":572.218,"end":593.21,"text":"這個勞基法20條只規定新僱主應繼續予以承認年資以外其餘不保證原有的勞動條件也沒有類似大量解僱的時候的強制協商我們的強制協商是只有大量解僱才有換言之除非涉及到大量解僱的人數的門檻沒有任何協商的機制那併購的時候"},{"start":595.751,"end":603.717,"text":"只要前30天通知主管機關也不用資訊公開更沒有工會的協商的權利更不要講資訊權那部長你現在說你要訂一個行政指導"},{"start":609.841,"end":626.426,"text":"現在大家都知道沒有任何法律效力不能說沒有法律效力就是說我們會衝進我們的行政的能力來對這個企業的併購行為做一些跨部會的這種指引跟討論因為事實上部長"},{"start":628.606,"end":649.332,"text":"賴總統說你沒有比之前更好至少不能比原本差那所謂的不能比原本差大概有兩個狀況嘛第一個當然就是說工作要一定有第二個你的勞動契約你的年資你的勞動條件要維持原狀就是這兩個而已那你現在的指導原則是沒有法律效力的"},{"start":650.595,"end":667.967,"text":"您有沒有修法計畫?修法的計畫也是要跟跨部會討論的,也不是勞動部一個部會可以決定的。那你會提出嗎?我們來努力好嗎?買賣不破雇佣。我們來努力看看,然後請委員支持。你的努力是什麼時候我們可以看到?你至少有提出去討論。"},{"start":669.571,"end":676.638,"text":"你提出去討論,我們就可以看到你有努力。好的,我們會來討論。提到部會裡面去討論。是是是。再跟您報告。好,我們就等著看囉。抱歉,我再講。"},{"start":684.765,"end":695.45,"text":"之前我們許民聰部長這個過渡時期看守期間他答應我們很多的這個修法上的這個承諾可不可以麻煩你注意一下我會follow有好幾個那我們會要繼續追是是是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬"}]}},{"id":"152890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4539f72d11f73b66387f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8339ae6d9bb1068f4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:28:51 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Eats……"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！就是這兩家啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：我的瞭解，在國外我是沒有看到。"],["邱委員志偉：臺灣是第一件？全球第一件，是嗎？你要掌握狀況啊！主委，其他國家是不是有相關的例子？其他國家怎麼處理？"],["林處長慶堂：其他國家沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是這兩家的結合，我們沒有看到這個案例。"],["邱委員志偉：這兩家的結合只有在臺灣出現，其他國家都還沒出現？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前看到的是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：這個就非常重要！我想問一下，過去全聯購併大潤發，你們是有條件通過，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：有七大負擔，這個未來如果結合之後，它可能由寡占變成獨占，這部分非常嚴重，一旦沒有競爭對手，就會把市場競爭弱化，不管是對合作的餐廳、對消費者、對外送員，相對都是不利的！所以要怎麼樣合併，才能達到防止限制競爭的目的，你們有沒有相關的作法？總不能說只提出四項審查原則，而是要如何讓它們進行合併，有哪些負擔或哪些條件能夠達到防止限制競爭的目的？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員報告，這個結合案，第一個，兩大業者結合導致整個市場結構改變，我們一定會嚴格審查、嚴格把關。"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：至於審查的結果准或不准，假設是不准，那就沒有附條件或附負擔的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的審查……"],["李主任委員鎂：假設准了再談要賦予什麼樣的負擔。"],["邱委員志偉：你們審查的標準在哪裡？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一個審查的原則，最主要是這幾個面向，包括……"],["邱委員志偉：集中度、訂價能力……"],["李主任委員鎂：集中度，以後的抬價能力等等。"],["邱委員志偉：聯合行為協同效果、市場效益。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個太抽象。"],["李主任委員鎂：我簡單說，第一個，會不會因為併購以後，併購方抬高價格的能力提高，會不會……"],["邱委員志偉：訂價能力到什麼程度、協同效果（聯合行為）到怎麼樣的效果、集中度達到什麼樣的情況、效益達到哪一個水平才能做，你要很明確的量化。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，包括外送員、餐廳、消費者的議價能力是不是受到影響，還有潛在的競爭者能不能容易地進入市場，這個是從很多面向來考量。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你先把這個標準定義清楚之後才能作為審查的依據，我看你們的四項標準、四個面向太抽象，到時候你們委員會討論，經過委員會討論之後再做……時間大概要多久？"],["李主任委員鎂：申請人的文件齊備以後，我們開始受理，審查期間是30天，必要的時候可以再增加60天，就是最長30天加60天。"],["邱委員志偉：30天你們就要做出決定？"],["李主任委員鎂：30天要做出決定，必要的時候可以延長60天。"],["邱委員志偉：已經立案了沒？"],["李主任委員鎂：5月14號申請，現在在審查這些文件。"],["邱委員志偉：5月14號立案，照理說30……"],["李主任委員鎂：它5月14號提出申請。"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候立案？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們等它文件齊備以後就開始受理這個案件。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在還沒有立案？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說受理申請了……"],["邱委員志偉：不是。"],["李主任委員鎂：等到文件齊備才受理申請。"],["邱委員志偉：法令規定受理立案後30個工作天要做出決定，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，受理申請。"],["邱委員志偉：這個期間開始了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：文件還沒有齊備的話，還沒有開始算。"],["邱委員志偉：所以還沒開始算？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，還沒開始算。"],["邱委員志偉：30天之內還可以再延長一次60個工作天？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果你在最長60天之內沒有做出決定，它就可以逕行結合，沒有錯嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：只要文件齊備，你60天之內……會不會有時間壓力？"],["李主任委員鎂：90天。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有時間壓力？你要辦公聽會，你要蒐集很多資料，時間壓力會很大呢！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們時間相當緊湊，也會很謹慎處理這個案件。"],["邱委員志偉：兩個月你要針對那麼大的結合案做出決定，時間壓力很大，我希望你們方方面面都要考量，讓社會能夠接受你們的決定。"],["李主任委員鎂：雖然時間短，但是我們還是會很嚴格、很審慎地處理這個案件。"],["邱委員志偉：有可能60天之後再延長嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：30天之後……"],["邱委員志偉：不是，還可以延長一次我知道了。"],["李主任委員鎂：可以延60天，不能再延了。"],["邱委員志偉：60天你還是沒有……"],["李主任委員鎂：不能再延了。"],["邱委員志偉：所以一定要做出決定？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，除非對方同意，否則不能再延。"],["邱委員志偉：我是覺得這樣子，未來比較治本的方式，整個外送應該比照歐盟的經驗制定專法，把數位科技控制納入從屬性審查。整個平台業者相關的這些權益，你應該按照歐盟的經驗制定專法，你看怎麼樣？主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：要不要訂定專法還有譬如主管機關等等，這個都要多面向去考量。"],["邱委員志偉：我是覺得這樣子，沒有明確的法規跟主管機關的規範……外送平台深入每一個家庭，幾乎生活都會用到外送平台，對不對？包括你我都會使用外送平台，但是一直沒有一個主管機關，主委，現在主管機關到底是誰？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看目的事業主管機關，其實整個外送平台牽涉的面向很多，包括勞動……"],["邱委員志偉：這個行業總要有一個主管機關，這個主管機關到底是誰？連你們都搞不清楚，你要怎麼規範？你要怎麼做相關的審查？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平會處理的是競爭秩序的影響，針對這個結合案或者是任何事業的行為……"],["邱委員志偉：我是覺得這樣子，雖然你們是針對結合案審查，但是未來不管是哪一個部會，要有一個部會去做主管機關，整合其他單位，利用這個機會把外送平台相關的問題、勞動型態、受僱者權益一併討論，包括勞動部、經濟部。到現在我還很納悶那麼大的市場竟然沒有一個主管機關，主委要補充什麼？你要補充？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，這個案子其實大家都非常矚目，就競爭的影響，我們一定會很審慎來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：我是怕你們時間壓力太大，做出不完美的判斷。"],["李主任委員鎂：不會。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你們好好把握這兩個月的時間，還是你一個月就做得出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看案情、當事人補正的程度，還有資料的內容。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Panda跟烏克力對啦就是這兩家啦我的瞭解在國外我是沒有看到台灣是第一件全球第一件是嗎你要掌握狀況 主委"},{"start":74.11,"end":101.962,"text":"其他國家是不是有相關的例子那其他國家怎麼處理沒有嗎?就是這兩家的結合我們沒有看到這個案例這兩家的結合只有在台灣出現其他國家還沒有出現目前看到的是這樣所以這個你就非常重要我想問一下這個過去前年過病大論法你們是有條件通過對不對?是那有七大負擔"},{"start":103.479,"end":132.081,"text":"那你這個未來如果結合之後他可能有寡戰變成獨佔這部分非常嚴重那你沒有競爭對手他就會把這個市場競爭把它弱化不然對合作餐廳對消費者對外送員都是相對是不利所以你要怎麼樣合併才能達到防止限制競爭的目的"},{"start":133.103,"end":143.653,"text":"你們有沒有相關的做法?你們怎麼不能說你提出這個四項審查原則但是你要如何進行讓他們進行合併你說哪些負擔或哪些條件"},{"start":145.97,"end":169.719,"text":"能夠達到防止限制競爭的目的?跟委員報告,就是說這個結合案,第一個,兩大結合,整個市場結構改變,我們一定會嚴格審查,要嚴格把關。那至於這個審查的結果準或不準,假設是不準,那就沒有負條件或負負擔的問題。假設準了,在談要賦予什麼樣的負擔。那你那個審查的標準在哪裡?"},{"start":170.854,"end":189.519,"text":"我們的審查原則最主要是這幾個面向包括說集中度、低價能力、聯合協會協同效果、市場效益這個太抽象了我簡單說啦就是說第一個會不會因為併購以後併購方那個抬高價格的能力提高"},{"start":191.82,"end":192.3,"text":"二）本院委員"},{"start":215.751,"end":237.228,"text":"能不能容易的進入這個市場這個是很多面向來考量對啦所以你先把這個標準定義清楚之後你才能做一個審查的依據嘛那我看你是四項標準四項的面向市場太抽象所以到時候就是你們委員會再討論然後經過委員會討論之後再做大概時間大概要多久"},{"start":237.987,"end":264.692,"text":"我們如果這個申請人的文件齊備以後我們開始受理、審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再增加60天也就是30天加60天最長30天之前你要做出決定?30天要做出決定必要的時候可以延長60天已經立案了沒?5月14號申請現在在審查這些文件所以5月14號立案那你照理說申請他5月14號提出申請"},{"start":265.692,"end":272.776,"text":"那什麼時候立案?我們就是要等他文件齊備以後,我們就開始授予這個文件。我現在還是沒有立案?應該是說授予申請的。"},{"start":277.759,"end":305.897,"text":"等到文件齊備才受理申請。你把這規定是說受理立案或三十工作天你要做出決定嘛對不對?受理申請是。受理申請那你這開始了沒?這期間開始了沒?文件還沒有齊備的話還沒有開始算。所以還沒開始算?對還沒開始算。那三十天之內還可以再延長一次六十工作天?是。你如果在六十天之內最少你沒有做出決定對不對?他就可以進行結合嗎?是的。沒有錯吧?是。所以你六十天之內只要文件齊備你六十天之內"},{"start":307.165,"end":335.26,"text":"會不會有時間壓力?有沒有時間壓力?你要辦公廳會,你要收集很多資料。時間壓力...這個我們時間是相當緊湊,所以也會很審慎處理這個案件。所以,兩個月,你要針對那麼大的一個結合案,你要做出決定。時間壓力很大,我希望你們那個,要方方面面都要考量,你要讓社會能夠接受你們的決定。雖然時間短,我們還是會很嚴格的、很審慎的處理這個案件。"},{"start":335.799,"end":335.919,"text":"邱志偉"},{"start":356.991,"end":382.023,"text":"比較這個製本的方式你這個整個外送的這個應該比照這個歐盟經驗來制定這個專法然後這個把數位科技控制納入從屬性的審查所以這個整個平台業者相關的這些權益你要應該按照歐盟經驗制定一個專法"},{"start":384.656,"end":413.317,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣?主委我想要不要訂專法還有譬如說主管機關等等這個都要多面向去考量所以我是覺得這樣子沒有明確的法規跟主管機關的規範我是覺得這個外送平台市場是深入每一個家庭幾乎每一個生活都會用到這個外送平台對不對包括你我都會使用這個外送平台所以一直沒有一個主管機關沒有一個這主管機關到底是誰?"},{"start":416.004,"end":435.218,"text":"主委要看目的事業主管機關其實就是說整個外送平台牽涉的面向很多包括同樣的行業主要有一個主管機關啊那這個主管到底是誰連你們搞不清楚那你要怎麼去做規範你要怎麼去做在公平會我們處理的是這個競爭秩序的影響所以"},{"start":444.789,"end":472.699,"text":"針對這個結合案或者是任何事業的行為。我是覺得這樣子啊。雖然你們是針對結合案做審查,但是未來不管是哪一個部會,你要有一個部會去做主管機關,然後整合其他單位。然後利用這個機會啊,正把外送平台總統相關的問題,勞動型態啦、受僱者權益一併討論,包括勞動部啦,包括經濟部啦。所以到現在我很納悶這個那麼大的市場竟然沒有一個主管機關。主管你要補充說?"},{"start":474.77,"end":475.03,"text":"您要補充?"}]}},{"id":"152889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453a71403eb23286f7dbde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e83d4a3e208f4f0935e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:11:08 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10:25:27","影片長度":"00:14:19","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":859,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:25:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:11:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時11分）主席，有請周秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：羅委員早。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長，我們的鍾召委非常有氣勢，非常霸氣，要把你從主席台趕下來，你有沒有被嚇到？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不會，我不在乎這個位子，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：要把你從主席台趕下來。我告訴各位，我今天就欣賞我們鍾召委把心裡話說出來，鍾召委說要把大家從主席台趕下來，這就是……"],["主席：我沒有說「大家」喔。"],["羅委員智強：他說要把周萬來從主席台趕下來，要把他從主席台趕下來，好，我就要跟各位講，請問周秘書長，為什麼當天我們必須要採取舉手投票，為什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為有一個因素產生，所以不得不採用舉手表決。"],["羅委員智強：您很中立，我不為難你，但我來講講因素是什麼。當天是不是發生民進黨立委拔掉國民黨的計票卡，有沒有？","抱歉，影片都有喔，鍾召委，影片都有喔，很清楚影片都有喔。","我想請問秘書長，今天民進黨說要把人從主席台拉下來，一直攻上去，主席台被占了以後，有辦法表決嗎？有辦法表決嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：那這樣的話，就大概由主席來看當時的情況再決定……"],["羅委員智強：我說如果民進黨把主席台占下來，把麥克風拔掉，還有辦法表決嗎？癱瘓方式之一啦！所以為什麼今天國民黨必須在上面護住議事尊嚴、護住議事程序。因為民進黨所有的……這個可能民進黨不要再否認了，你們全部在攻主席台。所以第一個情況，民進黨口口喊說你們全部下來按計票器表決，那我就要問第二個問題，秘書長，這個計票器的計票卡，每個委員配的那張計票卡被拔走以後，請問如何行使計票？"],["周秘書長萬來：就沒辦法行使計票。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！今天如果舉手表決有像民進黨說的這麼萬惡不赦，就是你民進黨造成的啦！我們在台下按計票器，你就衝上去主席台癱瘓議事，我們在台上守護議事，你就在台下偷偷拔計票卡。","不要否認，有影片。還在講舉手投票，你有臉講舉手投票，舉手投票就是你民進黨弄出來的，就這麼簡單。","我想要再請教一下我們的秘書長，舉手投票是不是議事規則裡面的投票方式？"],["周秘書長萬來：是第三十五條規定的。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！就是議事規則裡面的投票方式。民進黨你要講說多少年前，我管你多少年前，它就是議事規則裡面的投票方式，沒錯吧！"],["周秘書長萬來：規定是這樣。"],["羅委員智強：委員會也是舉手投票，不是嗎？英國的國會也舉手投票，不是嗎？舉手投票就是因為在當場的議場上民進黨的蠻橫，你逼的，今天我們的議事進行必須採取合乎規定的舉手投票。我接下來想要請教我們的秘書長，我知道鍾召委一直在講所謂的可否依次來表決嘛，對不對？那想請教秘書長，一定要用這種方式嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果從議學上跟我們立法院議事規則第三十六條的規定，表決是兩面俱呈啦！如果從實務上，全面改選以後到第4屆都還有用舉手表決的實例存在。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛講的是「可否」這個問題，他是說贊成要舉一次，反對要舉一次。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為從實例裡面都是正面表決，沒有在做反表決的。"],["羅委員智強：正面表決。我也呼應秘書長，什麼叫正面表決？當場如果明顯我們在做贊成投票的時候，贊成過半數，即為可決，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們現在實務上就只有用單面的正面表決。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，單面正面表決，只要過半數就是可決嘛，對不對？單面正面表決，如果是今天反對過半就是否決嘛，所以也沒有鍾佳濱講的那個問題。當天所有的投票，如果說今天民進黨數學不好，我幫大家算啦！請問秘書長，國民黨這次立法院幾席？"],["周秘書長萬來：用黨團來算是54席。"],["羅委員智強：54席嘛。民眾黨幾席？"],["周秘書長萬來：民眾黨8席。"],["羅委員智強：8席嘛。然後那個民進黨幾席？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在是51席。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！各位，你們直接去看在現場國民黨跟民眾黨，尤其國民黨幾乎是全員到，除了正副院長，因為身分的某些過去的原因，原則上除非特別的狀況參與投票，否則就是52席在那個地方啊，加上民眾黨的8席，請問有沒有過半？秘書長，有沒有過半？"],["周秘書長萬來：有過半。"],["羅委員智強：就過半了嘛！所以民進黨，到現在為止，透過各種方式來去扭曲。我再問一下秘書長，請問你們在協商的時候有沒有談到，希望大家不要攻占主席台，我們就在底下投票，有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為它這不是公開的，所以我未便在這邊說明。"],["羅委員智強：好。那我在這邊鄭重呼籲，真的啊，我覺得下次協商很簡單啦，請所有三黨的立委、黨團三長直接簽切結書，民進黨這麼愛用計票器投票，保證兩件事情，計票器投票就會發生，只要民進黨不占主席台癱瘓議事，保證一，不要講民進黨，所有黨不占主席台癱瘓議事，保證一；以及所有黨不去拔人家……這麼沒水準拔人家的計票卡，保證二。秘書長，我想請問，這兩個保證都落實了，大家有沒有辦法就坐在椅子上，好好的按計票器啊？"],["周秘書長萬來：在實務上是一定會這樣處理。"],["羅委員智強：就可以了嘛！所以民進黨，你這麼心心念念不要舉手投票，你就簽保證書嘛，我來跟國民黨反映，我們就簽這兩點保證書，三黨都簽，明天的投票全部都坐在底下好好的表決，不要偷拔表決卡啊！丟人現眼，偷拔表決卡是不對的行為，就像說今天我們進到議場，大家在那邊好好排隊，不要插隊嘛，國民禮節不插隊，民進黨也做不到啊！國民黨排隊排多少小時，秘書長知道嗎？第一天的那個開會。"],["周秘書長萬來：我看電視上是很長時間。"],["羅委員智強：48小時啊，我在那邊睡兩個晚上啦，我是睡兩個晚上啦，我今天晚上還要再去睡，我們願意嗎？排隊精神啊！民進黨又懶惰，你早點去排隊不就好了，為什麼不早點去排隊？到現場去插隊，懶惰、插隊，然後為了要搶進議場打警察、打記者、打立委，打議事人員、打周萬來啦！厲害啦！還說別人暴力黨，還好意思說別人暴力黨！我再來問秘書長警察權，請問一下秘書長，當天有行使警察權嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，因為韓院長一開始，他就宣告不動用警察權了。"],["羅委員智強：可是民進黨一直咬著你用警察權啊！奇怪了，為什麼民進黨一直咬著你用警察權？秘書長，你又覺得沒有用警察權。為什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為警察權的概念，長期院裡面在研究的時候，警察權的這個概念是在會場裡面。"],["羅委員智強：我幫秘書長歸納一下，警察權的概念是在那個會場裡面，對不對？當議事進行程序受到干擾的時候，如果今天立法院院長要排除這些干擾，在那個會場裡面叫做警察權，是不是這個概念？"],["周秘書長萬來：我的看法是這樣，因為莊委員跟我的看法不太相同。"],["羅委員智強：那我跟各位講，議場以外就是院長的人身安全維護，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：就整個院區的……"],["羅委員智強：對，那我想請問，第一天民進黨在那邊有沒有威脅到院長的人身安全？在門後面，沒有進到會場喔！門後面喔！鏡頭很清楚吧！又拉又扯又拔，成何體統！像樣嗎？那韓院長的安全不重要嗎？秘書長，韓院長的安全重不重要？"],["周秘書長萬來：我在事後才瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！很重要啊！所以如果確保今天韓院長能夠好好地、有尊嚴地、不受傷害地、不受威脅地走進會場，這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎？走進會場而已，不是在會場裡面喔！"],["周秘書長萬來：警察是不能進去會場的。"],["羅委員智強：對，所以在會場以外，那今天就是院長的人身安全維護，不是嗎？我想請問，如果今天院長要進到立法院，外面有民眾打他、攻擊他、攔阻他，不讓他進來，請問警察要不要保護他？當然要！這個就沒身分區別，不管那個民眾是民進黨立委還是一般民眾，只要今天攔阻了韓院長進到立法院裡面，請問警察要不要保護他？要保護他嘛！這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這不是國會警察權。"],["羅委員智強：當然！法律常識。","召委，剛剛莊瑞雄委員講很多，我要繼續一下，稍微再借一點時間。","我再請問秘書長，民進黨一直在講清點人數，可是我看到以前蘇嘉全院長清點人數的方式蠻好的，為什麼今天我們清點人數的方式民進黨不滿意呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不太瞭解，不過有例在前……"],["羅委員智強：原來是誰的例子？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛剛我看公報是蘇院長的時候。"],["羅委員智強：對，就是蘇嘉全留下這麼好的議事範例，民進黨這麼討厭蘇嘉全嗎？不需要一直打臉蘇嘉全啦！真的拜託！就像我們那天提了所謂不再提散會動議的動議，這個創始人是國民黨嗎？是柯建銘，對不對？當時的立法院長是民進黨的，對不對？所以民進黨真的不要一直在那邊用迴力鏢打自己！","最後我要問秘書長，你那麼多年間……警政署代表也可以上來。","主席，最後一題，警政署的代表上來一下。","我想請問，臺灣民主有史以來，由執政黨發起全臺街頭運動對抗國會，以前發生過嗎？執政黨、當家政府發起全臺街頭運動來對抗國會。","秘書長，他現在還要研究一下，你記得曾有哪個執政黨發起全臺街頭運動，號稱要對抗國會，你有沒有聽過？"],["主席：請周秘書長回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：臺灣沒看到。"],["羅委員智強：沒看到。副署長，看過沒有？"],["李副署長西河：印象中沒有。"],["羅委員智強：答對了，就是沒有！當家鬧事，可惡至極，就是民進黨啊！那我再問問看，在全世界，我不知道，我的世界觀不好，有沒有發生過今天執政黨……"],["主席：羅委員，已經多給你時間了。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我告訴你，我再借一下柯總召的星海羅盤的時間。我要跟大家講，我再問最後一題，問一個問題就結束了，沒關係。","我要問秘書長，全世界有執政黨號召街頭運動來攻擊國會、對抗國會，說要藐視國會……我要藐視國會，號召全臺街頭運動，你見過嗎？哪個民主國家曾有這樣的作法？"],["周秘書長萬來：我比較粗淺，不過我只知道美國行政部門跟國會之間曾經發生過一場……"],["羅委員智強：但那個是抗議執政黨，抗議執政黨的活動比比皆是，抗議在野黨我真的是沒見過！歷史第一次，全世界都在看，偉哉民進黨！當家鬧事，想要癱瘓國會！以上。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝周秘書長。接下來請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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天我們必須要採取舉手投票為什麼因為有一個因素產生阿所以不得不採用舉手投票您好很中立我不為難你"},{"start":60.151,"end":69.119,"text":"但我來講講因素是什麼當天是不是發生民進黨立委拔掉國民黨的這個計票卡有沒有我講欸抱歉影片都有中超委影片都有很清楚影片都有我想請問秘書長啊"},{"start":83.444,"end":91.328,"text":"今天民進黨說要把人從主席台拉下來一直攻上去主席台被佔了以後有辦法表決嗎?有辦法表決嗎?我說如果民進黨把主席站下來主席台站下來把麥克風拔掉還有辦法表決嗎?"},{"start":107.951,"end":108.291,"text":"民主黨（"},{"start":138.444,"end":153.893,"text":"這個計票器的這個計票卡每個人委員配的那張計票卡被拔走以後請問如何行使計票啊?對嘛今天如果舉手表決有像民進黨說這麼萬惡不赦就是你民進黨造成的啦我們在台下的計票器你就上去抽主席才癱瘓意思"},{"start":165.563,"end":170.525,"text":"我們在台上守護議事。你就在台上偷拔計票器。不要否認有影片。還在講舉手投票。你有臉講舉手投票。舉手投票就是民進黨弄出來的。就這麼簡單。我再想要請教一下我們的秘書長。舉手投票是不是議事規則裡面的投票方式?對啊!"},{"start":193.123,"end":214.509,"text":"就是議事規則裡面的投票方式啊那民進黨你要講說多少年前我管你多少年前他就是議事規則裡面的投票方式沒錯吧委員會是舉手投票啊不是嗎英國的國會舉手投票嗎不是嗎舉手投票就是因為在當場的議場上民進黨的蠻橫"},{"start":223.257,"end":245.343,"text":"以逼得今天我們的議事進行必須採取合乎規定的舉手投票。我接下來再要請教我們的秘書長。我知道中朝我一直在講所謂的這個可否依次來那個表決嘛。對不對?那想請教秘書長。一定要用這種方式嗎?"},{"start":250.674,"end":253.215,"text":"我剛講的是說可否的這個問題。他是說贊成要舉一次反對要舉一次啊。"},{"start":274.232,"end":294.124,"text":"因為我們從實例裡面都是正面表決的。正面表決嗎?沒有用在做環表決的。我也呼籲秘書長,什麼叫正面表決?當場如果明顯我們在做贊成投票的時候,贊成數過半數就極為可決嘛,對不對?對啊,單面正面表決,只要過半數就是可決嘛。"},{"start":303.908,"end":304.689,"text":"五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗"},{"start":326.021,"end":352.932,"text":"五十四席嘛。啊民眾黨幾席?八席嘛。然後那個民進黨幾席?五十一席。對啊。各位你們直接去看在現場國民黨跟民眾黨尤其國民黨幾乎是全員到除了正副院長因為身份的某些過去的原因原則上除非特別狀況參與投票否則就是五十二席在那個地方啊"},{"start":353.908,"end":357.93,"text":"加上民眾黨八席請問有沒有過半?議長有沒有過半?就過半了嘛所以民進黨到現在為止透過各種方式來去這邊扭曲我再問一下秘書長請問你們在協商的時候有沒有談到希望大家就是不要這個公站主席台我們就在底下去投票有沒有"},{"start":384.864,"end":389.786,"text":"因為他這不是公開的,所以我未必在這邊說明。好,那我在這邊震動呼籲啊。真的啊,我覺得下次協商很簡單啊。請所有的三黨的立委,黨團三長,直接簽切結書。這麼明顯這麼愛計票機投票,保證兩件事情計票機投票就會發生。"},{"start":409.164,"end":438.328,"text":"只要民進黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一不要講民進黨所有黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一以及所有黨不去拔人家這麼沒水準拔人家的計票卡保證二秘書長我想請問這兩個保證都落實大家有沒有辦法就坐在椅子上好好的按計票器了在書上是一定會這樣處理就可以了嘛所以民進黨你這麼心心念念不要舉手投票"},{"start":440.285,"end":467.654,"text":"你就簽保證書嘛我來跟國民黨反映我們就簽這兩點保證書三黨都簽明天的投票全部都做在幾項好好的表決不要偷把表決卡丟人現眼偷把表決卡是不對的行為就像說今天我們進到議場大家在那邊好好排隊不要插隊嘛國民禮節不插隊民進黨也做不到啊"},{"start":468.886,"end":479.372,"text":"國民黨排隊排多少小時?你不想知道嗎?第一天的那個開會。48小時啊。我在那邊睡兩個晚上啊。我是睡兩個晚上啊。我今天晚上還要再去睡。我們願意嗎?排隊精神啊!民進黨又懶惰!你早點去排隊不就好了?為什麼不早點排隊?到現場去插隊?"},{"start":498.724,"end":506.33,"text":"懶惰、插隊來為了要搶金一場打警察、打記者、打立委、打醫師、打草案來阿厲害啦還說別人暴力黨阿還好意思說別人暴力黨我再來問秘書長警察權阿請問一下秘書長當天有行使警察權嗎沒有因為韓院長一開始他就宣告不動用警察權"},{"start":526.772,"end":527.853,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":548.137,"end":573.545,"text":"警察權的概念是在那個會場裡面嘛對不對當議事進行程序受到干擾的時候如果今天立法院院長要排除這些干擾在這個會場裡面叫做警察權嘛是不是這個概念我的看法是這樣因為中委員跟我看法不太相同那我跟各位講議場以外就是院長的人身安全維護是不是就整個一個院區的一個"},{"start":578.001,"end":590.948,"text":"那我想請問第一天民進黨在那邊有沒有威脅到院長的人身安全在門後面沒有進到會場喔門後面喔鏡頭很清楚吧又拉又扯又拔成何體統像樣子嗎但韓院長的安全不重要嗎民主黨韓院長安全重不重要對啊很重要啊"},{"start":602.839,"end":630.952,"text":"所以今天如果說確保今天韓院長能夠好好的有尊嚴的不受傷害的不受威脅的走進會場這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎走進會場而已喔不是在會場裡面喔會場一定警察是不能進去會場對嘛所以在會場以外那就是今天院長的人身安全維護啊不是嗎"},{"start":632.685,"end":657.541,"text":"羅智強請問今天院長如果說今天要進到立法院外面有民眾打他攻擊他攔阻他不讓他進來請問警察要不要保護他當然要嘛這個就沒身份區別了我不管那個民眾是叫做民進黨立委還是叫做一般民眾只要今天去攔阻了韓院長進到立法院裡面請問警察要不要保護他"},{"start":659.263,"end":662.346,"text":"要保護他嘛那這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎當然嘛法律常識啦稍微剛剛我們莊瑞雄講很多我要繼續一下稍微再借一點時間我再來請問一下秘書長民進黨一直在講清點人數"},{"start":682.577,"end":701.702,"text":"可是我看到以前蘇嘉賢院長青年人說的方式蠻好的啊。為什麼今天我們青年人說的方式民進黨不滿意呢?為什麼?不太了解,不過有利在前。所以我們原的是誰的利?剛剛公報有宣告是因為蘇院長的事。對嘛!"},{"start":703.174,"end":730.416,"text":"就蘇嘉全留下這麼好的歷史範例啊民進黨這麼討厭蘇嘉全嗎?不需要一直打臉蘇嘉全啦真的拜託就像說今天我們那天提了所謂的不再提散會動議的動議這個創始人是國民黨嗎?是柯建民嘛對不對?當時的立法院長是民進黨的嘛對不對?所以民進黨啊真的不要一直在那邊回籬標打自己啦"},{"start":731.601,"end":739.466,"text":"最後我要問一下秘書長你那麼多年間警政署那個代表可以上來一下最後一題主席最後一題警政署代表上來一下我想請問台灣民主有史以來由執政黨發起全台街頭運動對抗國會以前發生過嗎"},{"start":759.031,"end":764.956,"text":"律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。"},{"start":787.241,"end":810.28,"text":"答對就是沒有啦當家鬧事可惡自己就是民進黨阿那我再問問看阿全世界我不知道啦我的世界觀不好啦有沒有發聲過說今天執政黨沒關係我告訴你我再借一下我們柯總召的星海羅盤時間阿我要跟大家講我再最後一題問一個問題結束來沒關係我問完來我要問秘書長阿全世界"},{"start":815.56,"end":824.627,"text":"有執政黨號召街頭運動來攻擊國會對抗國會來說要藐視國會喔他主要是我要藐視國會號召全台街頭運動你見過嗎哪個民主國家有這樣做法過"},{"start":831.639,"end":854.445,"text":"我比較粗淺不過我只知道美國那個刑事部門跟那個國會之間曾經發生過但是那個是 抗議 抗議執政黨啊 抗議執政黨活動比比皆是啊 抗議在野黨我真的是沒見過啦歷史第一次 全世界都在看 偽詐民進黨 當家鬧事 想要癱瘓國會以上好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝鍾秘書長接下來請"}]}},{"id":"152888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453119b9fc3b4a5b508bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e839eb79a7adb116a865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:58:03 - 10:10:57","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":774,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:10:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:58:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時58分）主席、在場的委員先進，列席的政府機關首長、官員，會場工作夥伴，媒體記者、女士、先生。有請立法院周秘書長以及司法院代表陳副廳長。"],["主席：請周秘書長及司法院陳副廳長。"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好、副廳長好。先請教司法院代表，當我們立法過程有合憲性爭議的解決途徑是什麼？如果立法有合憲爭議。"],["陳副廳長信旗：有合憲爭議的話，應該就是聲請釋憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，聲請釋憲。我們看一下，過去我們是根據司法院大法官審理案件法第五條，現在是根據憲法訴訟法第四十九條。有個案例，釋字第603號當年有立法委員賴清德等85人聲請，當中依現制規定，立法委員現有總額要有四分之一以上，就其行使職權，認法律位階法規範牴觸憲法者，來聲請憲法法庭宣告違憲之判決，是不是這樣？"],["陳副廳長信旗：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，現在我們看聲請釋憲的要件，請秘書長一起看。根據我們剛剛說的第五條也好，或是後來的憲法訴訟法第四十九條，都是要行使職權，那麼在大法官第1476號會議的決議，不受理的部分，它說必須是行使職權並且投票反對。請問司法院代表，是不是認同這個決議的內容？不受理的決議它所敘明的行使職權要投票反對，你認同嗎？這是大法官的會議決議，你認為有沒有拘束力？"],["陳副廳長信旗：我們尊重大法官的說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請秘書長。行使職權就要出席嘛，投票反對才符合聲請釋憲的資格，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這一個尊重委員的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啊！這不是尊重，這是司法院大法官會議嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我沒辦法對於大法官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是尊重大法官的說明嘛，不是尊重本席的嘛，大法官就這樣決議了嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為他們有做這樣的決議，因為這個不是釋憲裡面的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是決議的內容。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當天是不受理，不受理才再做這個決議的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不受理，如果沒有這兩個要件就不受理嘛，不是，這樣的寫法是太過牽……"],["周秘書長萬來：對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有這兩個要件就不符合，應該這樣寫才對。往下看，這是第1476次會議不受理決議，聲請人有38位立法委員，這是在107年的時候，因為他們認為前瞻條例違憲而聲請大法官解釋，後來有沒有通過？我們來看一下為什麼不同意呢？不受理決議的附件三寫明，大法官根據會議公報判斷哪些委員有出席、贊成或反對，在當天的議事錄當中，聲請委員38個之一的高金素梅委員請假，所以最後結果怎麼樣？駁回啊！大法官說什麼？因為要有38人提出才符合當時三分之一的規定，少了高金委員，他沒有出席，也就未參與表決、未行使職權，就不符合聲請人的資格。秘書長，你知道這個過程嗎？你知道這件事嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時的過程裡面，因為是為了前瞻預算的整體過程……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你直接講是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：我所瞭解是這種狀況，至於大法官針對這一案怎麼去處理，我未便有什麼置評，以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，你不能去評論大法官，大法官就這樣認為嘛！委員38位才符合三分之一的資格，為此，國民黨那時候只有37席，他特別提出，民進黨也支持喔，後來的憲訴法怎麼樣？改成四分之一，從三分之一改成四分之一，三分之一要38席，四分之一就不用了，未來讓少數黨可以聲請釋憲，民進黨支持憲訴法的修正，將聲請釋憲的門檻從三分之一降到四分之一，你知道是這樣的情況嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不太瞭解，不太瞭解為什麼要這樣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：門檻人數降下來之後，是不是37個就可以聲請釋憲了？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個我不太瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在降成四分之一，是不是29個就可以聲請釋憲了？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個用113席去算四分之一，但是至於那個立法理由是不是這樣，我不太瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你這個算數，我就問你嘛，把三分之一降成四分之一，從37個，像現在就是28個、29個，這是數學問題，你數學不好嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只是說用113去乘以四分之一嘛，那就可以提起釋憲……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，司法院代表請回。","5月21號的舉手表決，請看照片，現場有誰投了反對票？有沒有確定誰有在場投票？這樣能夠聲請釋憲嗎？如果有委員要聲請釋憲。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這是議事的過程，我未便表示意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未便表示意見，那你就在這邊現場聽好，我們往下看，立法院有幾種表決方式，這可以講了吧？根據議事規則，有幾種表決方式？有5種嘛，請告訴我有哪幾種？你不用再翻閱條文浪費時間。第一個，是不是口頭表決？第二個是舉手表決，第三個是表決器表決，第四個是投票表決，第五個是點名表決，是不是這樣？查到沒有？要不要告訴你第幾頁？"],["周秘書長萬來：第三十五條，我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯嘛，一、二、三、四、五這5種，是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下第三種的表決器表決，後面我們看到第一種的口頭表決跟第五種的點名表決，口頭表決相當於不記名嘛，因為口頭表決怎麼會知道是誰，但是點名表決就相當於記名嘛，請問舉手表決到底是屬於記名的項目還是不記名的項目？"],["周秘書長萬來：舉手表決是一個方式啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有辦法具名？有沒有達到記名或不記名？口頭表決不曉得是誰啊？你知道什麼叫口頭表決嗎？你要不要示範一下？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果你要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有沒有遇到過口頭表決的情況？在立法院，就你過去所知。"],["周秘書長萬來：我要這樣說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為你是專家，因為口頭表決的概念在臺灣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你告訴我，現場怎麼口頭表決？我告訴你啦，你聽我講啦，贊成請說贊成（贊成）、反對請說反對，我聽聲音，大聲的，贊成多於反對，贊成比較大聲，這叫口頭表決，口頭表決是沒有辦法具名的；舉手表決可以點數，對不對？我們往下看舉手表決，議事人員如何計算？你們點出53人啊，可能有其他政黨的來舉手表決支持民進黨，哪二個我也不清楚。再往下看，立法院職權行使法第六條規定「以出席委員過半數之同意行之」是不是？出席委員過半數嘛，對不對？你如何確定出席委員過半數？要先確有多少人出席，110人出席的過半數就是56人，100人出席的過半數就是51，對不對？是不是這樣子？是就講出來啊！是不是？不要點頭而已，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們議事規則第三十六條規定「表決，應就可否兩方依次行之。」要先問可的、贊成的請舉手；然後是反對的請舉手，本席在主持司法及法制委員會也是一樣，現場除主席之外11人，贊成的請舉手，6人；反對的請舉手，5人，贊成多於反對，是不是這樣子？"],["周秘書長萬來：這是在委員會啦，院會不是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，委員會，很好！委員會……"],["周秘書長萬來：院會不是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在委員會裡面因為沒有表決器，所以我們可以現場判斷。請看下一個，我們院會是不是用表決器？是不是用表決器？你看一下，是不是用表決器？表決器的按鈕有「出席」，黃色是棄權、紅色是反對、綠色是贊成，每位委員必須先簽到，在院會當天有簽到才能領卡，必須人在裡面才能插卡，插了卡才能按出席，你不按出席那個白鈕，不能顯示你是反對還是贊成，一旦你按了出席按鈕，你就被記錄為出席人數了，你按了贊成就顯示綠燈，按了反對就顯示紅燈，所以我們用表決器，按二個鈕，最後出來的結果會顯示出席人數、贊成多少人及反對多少人，一清二楚，還有名字，是不是這樣子？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當天以不同的方式……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以表決器是不是記名表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：當天以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是問你當天，我問你表決器是不是記名表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：為什麼主席……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你嘛！使用表決器是不是屬於一種記名表決？是不是很清楚？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器……"],["鍾委員佳濱：清不清楚？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器也有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你這樣清不清楚嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：你聽我說，表決器有記名表決跟不記名表決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你示範給我看不記名表決，表決器怎麼不記名表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器可以用記名的，也可以不記名，沒錯，我們在場的同事都知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，我現在問你，立法院職權行使法，我們有投票表決，有沒有？有6種投票表決，是不是？你有告訴我，我們立法院投票表決，依照職權行使法有6種，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：6種方式，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：6種情況，有不信任案等6種情況……"],["周秘書長萬來：6種議案的處理方式……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有不信任案、覆議案、緊急命令、彈劾、罷免及人事同意權等共有6種，其中3種要記名、3種不記名，那是投票，記名投票在選票上有你的名字，不記名投票在票上沒有你的名字。","再看下一頁，我們來看看公報記載的贊成、反對跟棄權名單，立法院的法案表決都會出現這個名單，請問一下，上週五跟本週二在最後的立法院公報會出現這個贊成、反對的名單嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我要這樣說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會？你告訴我會不會？"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，我要這樣說明，因為你這樣的，我沒辦法答復你。"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼沒辦法答復？你告訴我會不會嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為舉手表決方式是主席在採用的狀況之下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管嘛，公報會不會有紀錄誰贊成、誰反對？"],["周秘書長萬來：我是跟各位報告，在長期的例裡面都有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼長期？"],["周秘書長萬來：都有舉手表決的方式在，我們可以從……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在問你，舉手表決的結果會不會在公報上有贊成跟反對的兩種名字出現？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為舉手表決跟表決器的記名表決當然會不一樣嘛，這一定不一樣的啊，表決器的表決也有不記名的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦，看啦，這是立法院的秘書長在胡說八道的鏡頭啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：不、不、不，你們可以去看，表決器也可以不記名表決的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在問你舉手表決，可不可以告訴我，大會公報會不會記載誰贊成誰反對？你只要回答這一點。"],["周秘書長萬來：當然啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：舉手表決可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然這裡……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然不行嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我剛才已經跟你報告了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然不行嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為表決器有出問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你如果用舉手表決在立法，不能區別贊成跟反對……"],["周秘書長萬來：……所以才改採舉手表決嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們未來如何去聲請釋憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：可以，你們聲請釋憲，我幕僚，我不會去介入這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你作為幕僚，你沒有讓立法的表決留下贊成跟反對，大法官要如何判斷你是出席而且行使職權、行使反對？"],["周秘書長萬來：那他會去看紀錄。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會議紀錄也沒有寫誰贊成誰反對啊！所以你再看一看，要大法官去看圖說話嗎？要大法官看照片來勘驗證據，看哪一位委員贊成、哪一位委員反對嗎？還是在喊口號？","我今天用這個機會就是要凸顯出立法院秘書長在韓院長大會主席主持院會的時候，沒有辦法、沒有能力來判斷，我要告訴你，你身為立法院的幕僚長，你身為秘書長，又號稱是我們立法院的百科全書、百科字典，你對議事規則嫻熟，請問舉手表決未依可否俱呈，有效嗎？這是立法院職權行使法第六條規定要同意過半數，你沒有先清點人數，不知道在場人數是110人還是100人，舉手的時候怎麼知道？第二是要可否並行啊！都沒有踐行這樣的程序，這樣的表決是無效的！第三，法案的表決涉及到未來合憲性爭議的問題，我們要聲請釋憲，你要採具名的方式，具名有幾種？點名是不是具名？我問你，點名是不是具名？"],["周秘書長萬來：點名……"],["鍾委員佳濱：表決器可不可以用具名？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器我剛才說明，有記名、不記名嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以具名？可以嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：不，有記名、不記名……"],["鍾委員佳濱：投票可不可以記名？"],["周秘書長萬來：但是我剛才……"],["鍾委員佳濱：投票可不可以記名？可以嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：投票沒有，投票就是投票啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：表決器可以記名，點名可以記名……"],["周秘書長萬來：投票沒有用……沒有表決器去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：投票也可以記名，但是舉手表決沒有辦法記名，我們未來的法案表決要確定用具名的方式，確保我們釋憲的聲請可以合乎要件。秘書長，你如果未來不能堅持這兩點，我們保證把你從主席台上趕下來。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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程序這樣的表決是無效的。第二"},{"start":719.005,"end":736.512,"text":"法案的表決涉及到未來合憲性爭議的問題。我要申請釋憲。你要採具名的方式。具名有幾種?點名是不是具名?我問你,點名是不是具名?表決器可不可以用具名?可以具名,可不可以具名?可以嗎?投票可不可以具名?投票可不可以具名?可以嗎?表決器可以具名?"},{"start":744.335,"end":744.675,"text":"眾嘉賓委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"152887","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152887","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45391f69f420fb38eaa5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e8318c6b09aeef045bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:24:03 - 10:35:13","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:35:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:24:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請吳誠文主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：歡迎吳主委上任，也期待吳主委帶領我們國家的科技發展能夠持續地領先在世界的前段班。昨天國科會這邊舉辦媒體見面會，主委有提到一些未來的展望，包括推動產業數位轉型、淨零排放、AI研發等等的這些應用，都是現在臺灣科技發展的重中之重。","今年的科技預算編列是1,570億，明年國科會預計在科技的預算要擴大編列到1,800億，但是國科會在科技布局投入最多的部分是晶創臺灣，接近有60億；第二個是太空科技的部分，也有47億多；但是淨零科技與AI的發展合起來只有11億多。請問主委，重點布局的預算投入接下來會不會調整？例如主委昨天提到的就是產業數位轉型、淨零排放或是AI這個部分，您都非常的關心；還有像您關心運動科技預算的部分會不會調整？這個不到百分之一的預算。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，其實淨零科技現在我們有相當的能量是在中央研究院，是在有關科技研究的部分；產業發展的部分其實不一定是在科技預算，在經濟部其實有相當的能量，我們是通力合作啦！希望能夠朝這個目標前進，但是如果民間的期許增加，我們的步調要快一點的話，我們未來在淨零科技會再加強投資。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以主委的意思是說，對於預算占比的調整還是會做一些相關的因應？"],["吳主任委員誠文：將來可以做一些調整。"],["陳委員秀寳：這邊其實要提醒國科會，我們2050年淨零排放在即，目前的技術都還在基礎研究的階段，還沒有辦法跟產業來互相運用，再加上AI的發展是科技的趨勢，但畢竟我們的預算還是有限的，所以在整個預算占比的調整，也希望國科會這邊要妥善地來做一個分配。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是。"],["陳委員秀寳：請教主委，賴清德總統在5月20日的時候，宣示臺灣將競逐太空以及發展低軌衛星；國科會這邊也說會加速推動太空科技，包括低軌通訊衛星、入軌火箭、太空產業鏈以及人才的培育。國科會從2019年開始推動為期10年的國家太空科技發展長程計畫，總經費有251億元，預計要發展共10枚的衛星，到現在執行到第6年了，我這邊要請教主委，目前我們衛星建置的進度，這10枚的衛星是不是都完成了？還有我們發射場域目前選址的進度，什麼時候發射場可以建置完成來發射衛星？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員可以允許我們太空中心主任來回答？"],["陳委員秀寳：好。"],["吳主任宗信：我們的衛星大概有3個大面向，一個是光學遙測、一個是合成孔徑雷達、一個是低軌道通訊衛星；然後第一顆光學遙測衛星是福衛8號，明年大概就會有第一顆上去了，總共會有8顆。"],["陳委員秀寳：是完成還是上去？"],["吳主任宗信：打上去、打上去，就是發射到軌道明年就會發射，然後幾乎為了……"],["陳委員秀寳：是明年就可以發射？"],["吳主任宗信：對，然後是每一年至少會1顆，所以我們預定到2031年把8顆全部打上去；在2027、2028年的時候是合成孔徑雷達，合成孔徑雷達就是它可以穿透雲層，半夜也可以拍照的那種衛星；低軌道通訊衛星現在還是逐步在建置當中，以上。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們發射場址選址的進度呢？"],["陳處長國樑：報告委員，那個發射場址是三階三審的方式，現在進入第二個階段，所以我們正在向花蓮、臺東、屏東等各個地方政府說明我們的相關場址，昨天才到臺東縣政府跟他們副縣長說明。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們自己預計的時程呢？"],["陳處長國樑：預計在三階段是到年底的時候。"],["陳委員秀寳：今年年底？"],["陳處長國樑：今年年底。"],["陳委員秀寳：選址如果確認了之後，建置的作業大概要多久？"],["陳處長國樑：我們建置的作業就是公建計畫要預算，我們大概是兩到三年的時間建置這一個場域，將它設置完成。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為我們今年已經是計畫執行的第六年了，所以後續我們的時間其實也非常緊迫，在這個部分也希望加快你們的腳步，該去進行的、該去做溝通的、該去推動的部分，也希望你們這邊可以儘快地來完成這個進度。","再請教，在火箭的研發方面，去年逢甲大學有成功發射單節混合式小型的科研火箭，請問今年我們有沒有火箭試射的計畫？"],["吳主任宗信：逢甲大學理論上今年要發射。"],["陳委員秀寳：今年？"],["吳主任宗信：對，我想逢甲大學、淡江大學他們大概今年都會發射。"],["陳委員秀寳：都有這樣的計畫？"],["吳主任宗信：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：請問關於入軌火箭的計畫，目前執行的進度是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任宗信：因為是去年才啟動，現在有很多持續在進行，進行一些引擎測試，還有相關東西的建置，我們預定大概是2028年開始會做次軌道的飛試，希望在2030年可以有大概一支到兩支的入軌火箭展示。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝您的回答。其實，國科會在太空科技投入的預算是重點布局的第二高，民眾也都非常關心我們國家在太空科技技術的發展，所以本席希望國科會跟太空中心要落實社會溝通，半年或是三個月，定期公布相關計畫的進度，讓關心的民眾可以瞭解相關的資訊，這個部分請國科會這邊來努力。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來要請教主委關於AI的應用，因應世界AI技術的趨勢，國科會這邊也啟動TAIDE計畫，要建置可以應用在繁體中文、適合臺灣使用的生成式AI。近日國科會也公布TAIDE經過一年的訓練，可以用臺語跟英語來對話，甚至還可以快速生成立委質詢稿。本席就按電腦的規格試用了TAIDE跟ChatGPT的兩個版本來做比較，發現了一些問題。首先我們看投影片，這個是向ChatGPT提問：2024年5月20日之後，臺灣總統是誰？它的回答是賴清德總統，也大概回答出去年選舉的狀況，還有我們賴總統的立場，只是在語句上不是很通順，因為ChatGPT的語言模型在我們使用的時候是需要轉譯的，如果它轉譯出來的文句不通順的話，我們沒有辦法直接使用，可能還要再調整過，這也是我們國科會為什麼要發展TAIDE的原因，我們要建置自己使用的AI。接下來就是我向TAIDE提問的版本，第一個部分我們先找科普頻道上推薦的一個版本來使用，同樣的問題、同樣的問法，TAIDE回答的是目前所掌握到的資訊是2023年9月，所以只能告訴本席，蔡英文的總統任期到2024年5月，2023年9月以後發生的事情要自行去找最新的資料，也就是說TAIDE這個版本沒有辦法回答2023年9月以後的事情。第二個版本是本席向國科會詢問，就是可以生成立委質詢稿的這個版本，但是主委，你也看到這個版本的回復比剛剛的有更大的問題，因為它回答說2024年5月20日以後的臺灣總統是現任總統蔡英文，這是非常大的錯誤喔！本席又接著問它，那最新一次你們更新資料庫的時間呢？它沒有辦法回答具體的時間，但是它說涵蓋截至2021年9月為止的廣泛主題，就是說在這之後的事情，它是沒有辦法回答的，也沒辦法問，所以你覺得TAIDE這樣的表現，你是滿意的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，因為TAIDE是人工智慧，人工智慧絕對不可能有委員的智慧，所以它只是一個工具。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實這樣的人工智慧，就是AI的應用，是你給它越多資料、越去使用它，它會越正確，所以表示你們資料沒有更新，從2023年9月到現在超過半年了，你們沒有更新資訊，它當然就沒有辦法給出正確的答案。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們會檢討，我們會改善。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們已經公布，經過一年的測試，它可以這樣使用，可以有這樣的進度，但是實際上你們並沒有提供該提供的資料，做該做的更新，所以對於這個資料庫，你們有沒有訂定一個定期更新的目標？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：報告委員，TAIDE其實不是一個通用型的對話引擎，我們那時候在公布的時候，TAIDE的五大目標是寫文章、寫信、摘要、英翻中跟中翻英，最主要用途是目前公布的五大用途。未來我們會參考委員的意見，看怎麼樣來精進。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為其實民眾知道我們有研發一個這樣的應用軟體，大家都很開心，也很想要嘗試去用，但是你們這樣的說法跟民眾的期待有非常大的落差。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：既然我們要建置一個這樣的系統來供我們自己使用，就要把它做到好、做到完備，而且陸陸續續去更新，因為AI的發展是未來的趨勢，所以，既然我們已經建置了，民眾也都知道了，也會像我一樣去試試看，你們給他這樣的訊息、這樣的使用體驗，我覺得民眾會非常的失望。我覺得你們剛剛那樣的解釋，我不能接受。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我也有點失望，我們一定要改善。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，主委，您承諾了，這個部分你們儘快來做相關資料的更新，我們要給它越龐大的訊息，它才能提供正確的資訊給使用者。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為我的時間到了，其實後面還有蠻多要問的，如果你們有時間的話，請儘快安排到我辦公室，我們來討論後續的這些問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：遵照辦理。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員。","等一下在吳沛憶委員質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。","現在請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.75159375,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.661593750000002,"end":15.18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10年的國家太空科技發展長程計劃總經費有250億元預計要發展共10枚的衛星到現在是執行的到第6年了在這邊要請教主委目前我們衛星建置的進度這10枚的衛星是不是都完成了還有我們發射場域目前這個選址的進度什麼時候這個發射場可以建置完成來發射衛星"},{"start":208.598,"end":231.985,"text":"委員可以允許我們太空中心主任來回答報告委員我們大概衛星有三個大面向一個是光學的遙測一個是合成空間雷達一個是低軌道通訊衛星然後第一個大概光學就浮會8號大概明年明年大概就會第一顆上去的總共會有8顆是完全還是上去打上去打上去"},{"start":233.065,"end":255.865,"text":"發射到軌道明年就會發射是明年就可以發射?對,然後是每一年至少會一顆所以我們預定到2031把8顆全部打上去然後在2728的時候是合成孔徑雷達合成孔徑雷達就是它可以穿透雲層半夜可以拍的那種衛星然後低軌道通訊衛星還是現在逐步在建置當中以上那我們的發射場址的選址的進度呢?報告委員那個發射場址是"},{"start":263.31,"end":288.397,"text":"的方式現在進入第二個階段所以我們現在跟各個地方政府像花蓮像台東像屏東這個縣政府昨天才到台東縣政府跟他們副縣長來說明然後我們的相關長職我們自己預計的時程呢預計在三階段是到年底的時候今年年底今年年底那選址如果確認了之後呢我們建制的作業大概要多久"},{"start":289.093,"end":312.347,"text":"我們建置的作業那就是工電計畫要預算我們大概是兩到三年的時間要建置這個場域將它設置完成因為我們今年已經是計畫執行的第六年了所以在後續我們的時間其實也非常的緊迫在這個部分也希望說你們加快你們的腳步該去進行的該去做溝通的還是我們該去推動的這個部分也希望說你們這邊可以盡快的來完成這個進度"},{"start":315.669,"end":334.005,"text":"那再請教喔在火箭的研發方面呢去年逢甲大學有成功發射的單節混合式的小型的科研火箭那請問今年我們有沒有火箭試射的計畫喔逢甲大學理論上今年要發射今年對我想逢甲大學淡江大學他們大概今年都會"},{"start":335.146,"end":358.288,"text":"都會發生。都有這樣的計畫。那請問關於入軌火箭的計畫目前執行的進度是什麼樣?因為是去年才啟動。現在很多持續在進行。進行一些引擎測試還有相關的東西的建置。大概我們預定是2028開始會做次軌道的飛試。希望在2030年可以大概一支到兩支的入軌火箭的展示。以上。"},{"start":359.738,"end":384.309,"text":"好謝謝你的回答其實國科會在太空科技投入預算是在重點布局的第二高民眾也都非常關心我們國家在太空科技技術的發展所以這邊本期希望說國科會跟太空中心要落實社會溝通我們定期的公布相關計畫的進度半年或是三個月我們就是定期的來公布讓民眾很關心的民眾可以了解說相關的資訊這個部分請國科會這邊來努力好謝謝委員"},{"start":387.29,"end":391.811,"text":"接下來要請教主委關於AI的應用因應我們世界AI技術的趨勢國科會這邊也啟動TiDE計劃要堅持可以應用在繁體中文適合台灣使用的生成式AI今日國科會也公布了TiDE經過一年的訓練是可以用台語跟英語來對話甚至還可以快速生成立委諮詢稿"},{"start":413.836,"end":420.561,"text":"本席就按電腦的規格適用了兩個版本的TED跟CHAT-GDP來做比較有發現一些問題首先我們看頭影片這個是像CHAT-GDP的提問2024五月二十之後台灣總統是誰那他的回答是賴清德總統那也大概有回答出去年選舉的狀況還有我們賴總統的立場只是在語句上不是很通順因為在CHAT-GDP它的語言模型在我們使用的時候是需要轉譯的"},{"start":442.435,"end":442.455,"text":" ﹝提問﹞"},{"start":473.936,"end":481.438,"text":" ﹗2023年9月以後發生的事情要自行去找最新的資料。也就是說這個版本的態度在沒有辦法回答2023年9月以後的事情。第二個版本是本席向國科會這邊詢問說可以生成立委質詢稿的這個版本。但是主委你也看到這個版本的回覆比剛剛的有更大的問題。"},{"start":495.103,"end":520.371,"text":"因為他回答說2024五月二十以後的台灣總統是現任總統蔡英文這是非常大的錯誤喔那本席接著問他說那最新一次你們更新資料庫的時間呢他沒有辦法回答說具體的時間但是他有說啦他有回答涵蓋截至2021年九月為止的廣泛主題就是說在這之後的事情他是沒有辦法回答的也沒辦法問那除了你覺得這態的這樣的表現你是滿意的嗎"},{"start":527.808,"end":535.253,"text":"報告委員因為這個態度是人工智慧人工智慧絕對不可能有委員的智慧所以他只是一個工具"},{"start":537.56,"end":553.238,"text":"其實這樣子的一個這個能工智慧說是這個AI的這個應用是你給他越多資料你越使用他他會越正確所以表示說你們資料沒有更新從2023年9月到現在超過半年了你們沒有資訊更新進去他當然就沒有辦法給正確的答案是我們會檢討我們會改善"},{"start":557.202,"end":560.405,"text":"提供的都沒有所以這個資料庫你們有沒有制定一個定期的更新的目標目標"},{"start":578.078,"end":597.098,"text":"報告委員,我們這個TED其實它不是一個通用型的對話引擎我們那時候在公布的時候 這個TED的發展是五大目標寫文章、寫信、摘要、英翻中跟中翻英它最主要用途目前公布的是五大用途這樣子那未來我們怎麼樣來參考委員的意見怎麼樣來精進這樣子"},{"start":598.319,"end":618.285,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":618.385,"end":619.226,"text":"報告委員我也有點失望,我們一定要改善。"},{"start":641.027,"end":664.462,"text":"好那主委您承諾了這個部分的你們盡快的來做就是相關資料的更新我們要越多的更新資料更新進去給他越多越龐大的訊息他才能提供正確的資訊給這個使用者那因為我時間也到了其實後面還蠻多要問的那我在你們有時間的話我請你盡快排到我辦公室我們來討論後續的這些"}]}},{"id":"152886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453f8210e59737f6b83f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83a721eb27b6671d545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:19:27 - 10:28:48","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":561,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:28:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:19:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還有勞動部的許專委。"],["主席：請勞動部許專委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我想大家都高度關注Uber Eats跟foodpanda的收購案，我認為這個其實對臺灣有相當大的影響，因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭，而且兩個差距非常的接近，而且臺灣現在又是一個高度、大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的地方，所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好，確實有可能嚴重影響到包括外送員、包括店家、包括消費者的權益，我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了，目前的進度是到哪邊？"],["李主任委員鎂：他們是5月14號送件，因為資料相當的多，我們現在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。"],["賴委員瑞隆：已經送進來了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：送進來了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有要求他們補件嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前還在看這些文件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果需要補件，會請他們再補件。"],["李主任委員鎂：需要補件會請他們補件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：多久的時間要審查完畢？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果文件齊備，我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢，必要的時候可以延長60天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：延長到60天，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：也就是30天加60天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就有90天，所以最快在3個月後會做出決定？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看它文件什麼時候齊備，我們通知……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們還是希望公平會針對這件事情還是要非常審慎嚴謹的處理。我要講一下，以現在來看，foodpanda市占率43%，Uber Eats是32%，反倒是小的併掉大的，你看所有的抽成幾乎都是三成多，另外一家比較小家的，反倒只有兩成多的抽成，所以這也是大家所擔憂的，因為他們現在兩個在競爭，所以還有可能維持一個比較好的狀況，而且即使在這樣狀況下都要抽成三成多，坦白講對商家的負擔其實是頗重的，如果將來兩大整併的話，或者是收購完畢的話，有沒有可能就變成了更高的抽成價格？主委有沒有這樣的擔憂？"],["李主任委員鎂：這些我們都會考慮，所以我剛才有報告，我們將來審查重點其中一個就包括競爭對手減少了，併購方的抬價能力是不是提高？這個我們也會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個顯然易見的，抬價能力絕對是提高的，因為這是自然而然，有一些個案還是處於虧損的狀態，它自然覺得我虧損了，當然要提高！包括兩者合併後的市占率高達七成五，這樣的比例高不高？"],["李主任委員鎂：相當高！"],["賴委員瑞隆：相當高。過去你們否決掉很多案子，不管是從鋼鐵業，到泡麵，到KTV的，大概都還沒有這麼高的比例吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：過去這些比例也是很高，但是它們到多少比例，可能還要再瞭解一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：泡麵的不可能高啦！統一跟維力兩個整併再怎麼樣，當然是高啦，但是還有很多競爭嘛！因為泡麵也不只有這兩大嘛！鋼鐵的當然也是多啦！KTV……"],["李主任委員鎂：比較高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：錢櫃跟好樂迪是高，但是還是有很多，像中南部就有很多不是這兩個系統的。但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨占，兩家都非常大，如果它們兩個併完之後，我認為它們就獨占掉全部的市場了，議價能力絕對是由他們說了算！所以我認為這件事情，公平會要非常審慎處理，社會都高度關注。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例，我看有十幾件你們都禁止結合，即使商家掛保證、附帶各項決議，你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量。我舉一個例子就好，包括好樂迪、錢櫃，包括統一、維力，包括燁聯、唐榮等等很多家，但是我舉一個就好了，關於當時錢櫃跟好樂迪併購的部分，你們談的最後結論是，相關不調漲價格、不減少服務等均屬短期承諾，無法解決長期而言，市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因，這樣的問題應該也存在著吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：在這裡我們都會一起考量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括結合後將顯著減損，就是當時的好樂迪，減損掉視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能，有提高價格的高度誘因與能力，消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗抑制，具有顯著限制競爭之不利益；這應該也符合吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：整個案子我們全部評估……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我知道你們會討論，我只是再三跟主委提醒，不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差，我認為它們兩個結合整併的限制競爭不利益是高於前面所談到的錢櫃跟好樂迪這些，如果連錢櫃和好樂迪你都可以去限制了，不要在3個月後做出來的決定讓社會感到相當驚訝，這件事情我認為其實是非常明確的。","再來我要請教，有關外送勞動員的爭議已經非常多了，從2019年4萬人，一單70塊；到2020年的時候，到了一單40塊，到後來變成兩單40；甚至繼續往下降。勞動部這邊有沒有進行一些相關的要求？勞動部說明一下。"],["許專門委員根魁：跟委員報告，其實針對外送員薪酬部分提出意見的時候，我們就已經在我們的平台會議上……"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在處理的狀況怎麼樣？"],["許專門委員根魁：這部分我們讓他們有充分溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有來說明了嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：前幾天我們召開平台會議的時候，他們都已經針對這個議題有來……"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩家都有來說明嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩家都來說明，說明的結果呢？"],["許專門委員根魁：這部分是不是之後我們整理了提供給委員？"],["賴委員瑞隆：提供給我們，好不好？我也希望公平會要審慎地思考，之前反映的效果還不是那麼理會，將來他們會議的結果，我講到這個對於外送員權益的影響、對商家的影響，現在商家是抽成三到四成，未來可能更高，當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響，這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為，所以我們希望這塊要請主委那邊嚴格把關。"],["李主任委員鎂：是的，我們會召開公聽會，而且也會徵詢相關機關，包括勞動部、消保會等等，跨機關……"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，請主委一定要嚴格把關，公平會一定要嚴格把關，不要讓社會感到有很大的落差。","再來我請教一下，我們在談網路詐騙，大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙，我認為廣告資訊透明是一件重要的事情，特別是平台業者，你不能只賺廣告費，結果卻不去抑制。我們看到很多商家，甚至很多名人，整天還要在網路澄清說這個不是我，我從來沒有理財投資，我從來沒有什麼，不斷要發這些東西，但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的把關，卻連資訊都不揭露，也不認真把關，然後不斷地賺這些詐騙廣告的收入，我認為就是詐騙共犯啊！當然就是詐騙共犯！你不要等到消費者去告嘛，我認為其實政府要積極作為，至少資訊的揭露一定有把關的能力嘛，整天一堆名嘴說從來沒有投資理財，整天網路上廣告跳出來推薦大家來投資理財，一看就是詐騙，平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力？好，你這邊該處理以外，另外也應該要資訊揭露，就是到底是誰刊登這些廣告，讓大家知道嘛！這是最基本的嘛！如果是一些奇奇怪怪的人，根本就不是當事人刊載的，那當然是假的嘛！我有提出來一個推動廣告全部實名制，揭露委託刊播者與出資者，主委同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，您的這個提案，我們非常重視，我也認為廣告主應該是可以被找得到，這是很重要的。針對這個議題，我們也去拜訪很多相關業者，第一個，如果這個廣告主有委託廣告代理業，通常是找得到這個廣告主，現在問題就是這些廣告主自己在平台上刊登廣告，沒有透過廣告代理……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我說揭露嘛！至少揭露嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：所以平台這部分如何讓它揭露這些廣告主，我會後會跟委員再做說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望朝這個方向來推動，我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退回，我不知道為什麼會被退回，這件事情難道不能進到委員會來討論嗎？我們反詐騙嘛！我們就是要遏阻這樣的行為，為什麼這樣的案子要被退回？有任何意見，就進到委員會來討論嘛！為什麼連討論都不讓討論，這不是黑箱國會，什麼是黑箱國會？好不好？謝謝主委，這整個案件請再幫我整個瞭解一下，我們來努力啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：我會後跟委員做報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：減少詐騙的發生，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","羅智強","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","黃捷","蔡易餘","林岱樺","陳冠廷","陳超明"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及\n對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬\n具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳\n銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.0603437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.64596875,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.037218750000001,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.817218750000002,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.37721875,"end":54.689093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.59159375,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.12596875,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.75034375,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.21409375,"end":76.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.84221875,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.84596875000001,"end":83.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.22034375000001,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.25409375000001,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.36784375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.83159375000001,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.81409375000001,"end":96.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.39596875000001,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.63471875000002,"end":139.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.87409375000001,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.28721875000002,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.63659375,"end":154.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.31909375,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.21159375000002,"end":168.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.67971875,"end":169.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.36721875,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.74596875,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.11659375000002,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.16659375,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.95784375000002,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.39659375000002,"end":198.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.29096875000002,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.53971875000002,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.18409375000002,"end":248.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.10596875000002,"end":263.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.83784375,"end":265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.67721875,"end":287.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.53846875,"end":293.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.01096875,"end":290.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.09534375000004,"end":290.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.13721875000005,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.71659375,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.75034375,"end":350.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.64284375,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.29221875,"end":353.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.69721875000005,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.13971875000004,"end":357.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.23659375,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.01221875000005,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.02909375,"end":363.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.04596875000004,"end":363.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.07971875000004,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.02471875000003,"end":364.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.04159375,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.21034375000005,"end":364.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.39596875,"end":364.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.49721875,"end":364.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.96971875,"end":365.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.96534375000005,"end":366.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.03284375000004,"end":366.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.80909375000005,"end":366.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.92284375,"end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Eats跟Foodpanda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的"},{"start":38.655,"end":54.334,"text":"大量喜歡使用這些外送平台的一個所以這樣兩個案子一旦沒有處理好確實有可能嚴重影響到外送員包括店家包括消費者的權益我知道現在整個案件他們送進來了目前的進度是到哪邊"},{"start":57.685,"end":76.132,"text":"五、四號送件,那因為資料相當的多,我們現在在針對這些文件來檢核是否文件已經齊備。那已經送進來了嗎?送進來了,五月十四號。有交叉要求他們補件嗎?目前還在看這些文件。所以還在看文件,那如果需要補件會請他們補件?需要補件會請他們補件。那多久的時間要審查完畢?"},{"start":76.892,"end":91.714,"text":"如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢必要的時候可以延長60天延長到60天是不是也就是30天加60天90天所以最快在三個月後會做出決定"},{"start":91.974,"end":92.054,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":110.916,"end":111.897,"text":"（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具（"},{"start":132.728,"end":133.489,"text":"主委有沒有這樣的擔憂?"},{"start":142.463,"end":144.264,"text":"兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高"},{"start":170.447,"end":170.587,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":199.478,"end":222.703,"text":"前櫃跟好樂迪相高但是還是有很多像中南部就很多不是這兩個系統的所以我說但是這兩個幾乎是獨大到獨佔兩家都非常的大如果他們兩個併完之後我認為他們就獨佔掉全部的市場了所以溢價能力絕對是由他們說了算啦所以我認為這件事情公平要非常的審慎來做處理社會都高度在關注"},{"start":223.303,"end":244.811,"text":"那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以換我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分"},{"start":249.173,"end":263.082,"text":"你們談的最後,你們的結論怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍俗短期承諾無法解決長期而言,市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?"},{"start":264.142,"end":287.461,"text":"在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,所以它是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?"},{"start":291.367,"end":308.569,"text":"對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂的敵人。"},{"start":308.849,"end":329.326,"text":"那如果連錢貸勞力你都可以去限制了不要在三個月後做出來這樣決定讓大家社會感到相當驚訝我希望這些事情我認為其實是非常的明確的那再來我要請教外送勞動員的爭議已經非常的多了從2019年4萬人一單70塊到2020年的時候到了一單40塊到後來變成兩單40甚至自己往下降勞動部這邊有沒有去進行一些相關的要求"},{"start":337.779,"end":339.099,"text":"兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明,說明的結果呢?"},{"start":368.915,"end":392.34,"text":"這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們了好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成三到四成未來可能會更高"},{"start":393.906,"end":415.178,"text":"當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開公聽會而且會徵詢相關機關勞動部消保會等等請主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差"},{"start":415.738,"end":432.723,"text":"再要請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一定重要的事情特別是平台業者你不能只賺廣告費結果你卻不去益智我們已經看到很多的商家"},{"start":433.303,"end":456.88,"text":"甚至很多的名人整天還要網路陳情說這個不是我我從來沒有理財投資我從來沒有什麼不斷要發這些東西但平台業者明明就有辦法去做很好的一個把關你連資訊都不揭露也不認真把關然後不斷的賺這些的詐騙的廣告的收入我認為就是詐騙共犯啊當然就是詐騙共犯你不要等到消費者去告嘛我認為其實政府要積極的作為對這些的"},{"start":458.221,"end":479.936,"text":"至少資訊的揭露一定有把關能力嘛整天一堆的名嘴然後說我從來就沒有投資理財整天網路上出來廣告跳出來說推薦大家來投資理財一看就是詐騙那平台業者怎麼會沒有判斷能力好那你這邊該處理以外你另外你應該也要資訊來揭露嘛就是讓到底誰刊登這些廣告讓大家知道嘛"},{"start":480.196,"end":480.977,"text":"委員您的提案我們非常重視,我也認為廣告主應該是處於可以被"},{"start":500.931,"end":500.971,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":521.634,"end":547.972,"text":"廣告代理所以我說揭露嘛至少揭露嘛所以平台這部分如何讓他揭露這些廣告主我會後會跟委員再做說好不好我希望朝這個方向來推動啦那我的案子一直被國民黨在程序委員會退出我不知道為什麼要退出啦會被退回這件事情難道不能進到委員會來做討論嗎連這樣的詐騙我們反詐騙嘛我們就是要二合組這樣行為那為什麼這樣的案子要被退回有任何意見進到委員會來做討論嗎為什麼連討論都不可以討論這不是黑箱國會什麼是黑箱國會"},{"start":552.616,"end":552.736,"text":"賴瑞隆"}]}},{"id":"152885","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453878fe1451b41c6dc9f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e839c16ffa9df325e205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:16:33 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10:28:05","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:28:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:16:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時16分）謝謝主席，請我們何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：何部長，恭喜你來接任我們的勞動部長。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：我想請問一下何部長，過去8年來我們蔡政府針對基本工資有不斷的調漲，我想請問一下，尤其近5年的調漲，我們基本工資調漲的目的是什麼？我想請問一下何部長，你覺得基本工資調漲的目的是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：當然是為了保障勞工的權益。"],["涂委員權吉：對，是不是也有一部分是希望能夠帶動我們勞工整體的薪資？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，它會有定錨的效果，會有指標作用。"],["涂委員權吉：我們也看一下，因為我們基本工資年年上漲，可是據我們看到，這5年來我們的實質薪資沒有成長、停滯不前，甚至有些還是倒退的，你看我們近五年，從108年到112年這5年基本工資的調漲，但是近五年我們的實質經常性薪資，尤其從110年到112年是「倒退嚕」的，也就是說，這3年我們物價的上漲、通貨膨脹大於薪資的調漲，針對這部分，之前我們許銘春部長曾說基本薪資的調漲就是希望能夠帶動基本上我們邊際勞工的收入，但是有很多勞工朋友跟我們講，這個基本工資的調漲其實都沒有漲到他們，他說因為基本工資調漲都是漲最低的，像這十幾年來，他們不是領最低的基本薪資，他說其實這個調漲都沒有實質上調漲到他們，所以也難怪我們看得到這個實質經常性薪資不但沒有成長，而是後退的，何部長是新上任，不知道你對這部分有什麼看法？有沒有解決的方法？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，有兩點，第一點，確實漲基本工資未必能漲到基本工資以上的那一群人，這是事實，那麼那個部分我們要動用其他的政策工具，我們現在有進行中小企業加薪抵稅的條例的修法，把那個抵稅的門檻放寬，啟動的門檻也放寬，相信這樣可以帶動企業願意再替基本工資以上的員工加薪，這是第一點。","第二點，這個有通膨的因素啦！所謂的實質經常性薪資，因為這個通膨的因素是跨部會的問題，當然主要還有包括新臺幣可能有貶值的問題等等各方面，還有包括國際的因素等等，這部分勞動部會比較沒有辦法用單一部會來解決，可是我會想辦法來向行政院反映，好嗎？"],["涂委員權吉：好，因為今天會提出這部分，就是有很多的勞工朋友他說最低基本工資怎麼調漲，尤其蔡政府這8年來的調漲，他說其實他們是毫無感受啦！因為都是調最低的，不要說8年，這10幾年來他們都沒有調到薪水，所以我們從實質薪資就看得到，因為他們沒有調漲，所以通貨的膨脹造成他實質的薪資不但沒有提升，反而是後退。我們看到這8年來，好像蔡政府對於基本工資一直調漲，好像薪水一直在調，但是都是調最低的，反而大部分的、沒有領基本工資的，他們都沒有調漲，所以每年、每年的物價上漲、通貨膨脹就變成說看得到實質薪資是倒退的。所以這部分會提出，也希望何部長能夠重視這10幾年來很多人薪水都沒有調漲的問題，希望何部長能夠以勞動部大家長的立場來幫我們來瞭解，希望有機會能夠幫他們研議怎麼去解決這個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["涂委員權吉：針對第二項，我們也知道何部長是野百合世代、社會運動、工運、農運出身，所以我相信說，對於工會這些組織的部分，我認為何部長應該也都是非常關心，那我想請問一下，針對工會的組織門檻，有很多的勞工跟我們來反映，因為臺灣是以中小企業為主，有98%的企業僱用的人數不到30人，所以算起來有343萬受僱的勞工並沒有機會來組織工會，甚至連中央銀行都贊成降低門檻，連我們立法院的法制局也認為30人的門檻對於中小企業組織工會的權利是受限制的，不知道何部長針對這一部分的看法是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，其實許部長他的這個談話是反映臺灣社會的現實，我們的中小企業真的占了臺灣產業的98%，是非常龐大的一個部門，那麼到底工會的門檻下修有沒有幫助勞工的團結權，其實這是一個問號，這真的是我們必須仔細地去分析到底有沒有用，因為事實上，他並不見得真正能夠提升勞工的團結權，事實上在30人以下的單位，他本身在團結上面會有一定程度的難度，因為他跟資方之間就是一個家庭的關係，類家庭的關係，所以你說叫他去跟資方之間用這種工會抗爭的方式，事實上也做不到。所以所謂下修30人以下是不是多數中小企業內部勞工的想法，說真的我們要去確認。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這一部分，我們之前詢問過許部長，他說降低工會門檻容易影響企業的營運，但是我們還是一直不斷接受到很多中小企業、很多勞工的陳情，他們是認為剝奪他們組織工會的權利，所以也希望何部長……我一直認為何部長也是我們社會運動出身，也希望能夠對於人數比較少的中小企業組織工會的部分，希望何部長上來以後，也能夠再重新研議，來重視一下，是不是有機會能夠幫他們爭取一些合法能夠爭取的權益？"],["何部長佩珊：我們會來研究討論。"],["涂委員權吉：好，這一部分也請何部長來重視一下。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：去年明揚大火之後，造成4名消防人員的殉職，其實這幾年來陸陸續續都有很多很年輕、很優秀的消防員，因為救火、保護我們人民生命財產，而讓他自己的生命受到損失而罹難，針對消防員組織工會的這一部分，我請問一下何部長，請問你對消防員組織工會的態度是否支持？"],["何部長佩珊：我認為消防員還是要回歸公務人員協會法。"],["涂委員權吉：可是他們一直認為考試院的公務人員協會法這個門檻過高，而且對於他們的協商權，他們感覺都是被架空的。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，跟您報告，我們已經請考試院趕快把公務人員協會法關於協商的部分做一些放寬，這個是比較實際的處理，能有效解決消防人員的問題。"],["涂委員權吉：如果要用公務人員協會法，我們希望門檻的部分要去做調整……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：還有他們所重視的協商權不應該被架空。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：如果真的沒有辦法改善，我們倒認為他組織工會的方式可以比照教師，大家一直都很擔心會有勞資爭議處理的問題，我們可以像教師組工會一樣，明定他們也禁止罷工，我認為就應該可以解決這個問題。當然這部分，今天因為何部長新上來，能夠把一些我們地方民眾的聲音、勞工的聲音反映給部長知道。","還有從111年的時候，我們有正式來統計，也希望何部長重視這個問題。我們逃逸外勞的部分已經超過八萬多人了，而且這個比例我們看起來是年年增加，不知道勞動部有沒有什麼方法，何部長針對這部分，你有沒有自己的看法跟解決方法？"],["何部長佩珊：因為移工的失聯原因真的是很多啦！有勞動條件的問題，也有一般缺工的問題，可是就是說，第一個我們可能要強化家庭看護工這一塊，他的薪資有可以再提升的空間，減少他逃跑的誘因，這個是我們目前也許可以努力的方向。其次是強化職聘的服務，讓他能夠依自己的意願來進行各種這樣子的……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我一直希望勞動部針對這部分一定要來重視，因為逃逸外勞不但沒有減少，還一直在增加，所以我們擔心這以後會衍生一些治安的問題。而且現在我們覺得臺灣缺工已經非常嚴重，像內政部移民署在112年有推自首的專案，好讓一些逃逸的外勞怎麼樣子去解決他們的問題，讓他們去自首，我想說臺灣的缺工問題也都非常嚴重，也有人建議說，因為他們是專案移工，自首之後就不能再返臺來工作，我們想說勞動部跟內政部是不是有一個機會來研議，針對這個自首專案怎麼樣來推動，是不是讓這些移工也有機會能夠繼續在臺灣工作，因為這個自首專案就是自首之後，回去以後他就不能再返臺了……"],["何部長佩珊：就要遣返回去了，不能再回來。"],["涂委員權吉：因為我覺得一方面解決逃逸外勞的問題，也一方面希望能夠解決我們臺灣缺工嚴重的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我跟移民署來討論好嗎？再跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：對，希望部長針對這幾個議題，因為部長新上任，後面有無限揮灑的空間，我們也對何部長有很大的期待，希望以上幾個問題，部長能夠為我們這些勞工朋友、消防員爭取他們合法的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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d":42.804,"text":"好,何部長恭喜你來兼任我們的勞動部長那我想請問一下我們何部長那針對過去8年我們蔡政府他有針對我們基本工資這8年來他有不斷的調漲那我想請問一下尤其這近5年的調漲那我們基本工資"},{"start":44.585,"end":63.115,"text":"條長的目的是什麼?那我想請問一下何部長你覺得這基本工資條長的目的是什麼?當然是為了保障勞工的權益對那是不是也有一部分他是不是也希望能夠帶動我們勞工整體的薪資當然他會有定貌的效果會有指標作用"},{"start":64.296,"end":78.154,"text":"對,那我們也看一下齁那因為我們基本工資年年上漲可是據我們看到齁我們這5年來我們的實質的薪資沒有成長停滯不前甚至"},{"start":78.635,"end":101.032,"text":"有些還是倒退的你看我們這個近5年從108年到112年我們這5年基本工資的調漲但是這近5年我們實質經常性薪資尤其從110年到112年他是倒退路的也就是說這3年我們物價的上漲通貨的膨脹大於薪資的調漲"},{"start":104.474,"end":126.961,"text":"那針對這一部分我們之前我們的許明春部長他有講他說基本薪資的調漲就是希望能夠帶動我們基本上我們邊際勞工的收入但是有很多的勞工朋友有跟我們講這個基本工資的調漲其實都沒有漲到他們他說因為這基本工資調漲都是"},{"start":127.481,"end":127.801,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":152.054,"end":169.732,"text":"公務員報告這有兩點第一點就是說確實漲基本工資未必能漲到基本工資以上的那一群人這是事實那麼那個部分我們要動用其他的政策工具我們現在有進行中小企業加薪抵稅的條例的修法"},{"start":169.872,"end":189.735,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":190.155,"end":205.011,"text":"當然主要還有包括新台幣可能有貶值的問題等等各方面對還有包括國際的因素等等這部分勞動部會比較沒有辦法用單一部會來解決可是我會想辦法來向行政院反映好嗎好"},{"start":205.792,"end":228.593,"text":"因為今天會提出這一部分就是有很多的勞工朋友他說其實這個最低基本工資怎麼調漲尤其我們蔡政府這8年來的調漲他說其實他們是毫無感受因為都是調最低的他們不要說8年這10年來10幾年來他們都沒有調到薪水所以我們從這個實質薪資我們就看得到因為他們沒有調漲"},{"start":230.114,"end":248.944,"text":"所以這個通貨的膨脹造成他實質的薪資不但沒有提升反而是後退所以我們看到這8年來好像蔡政府好像對於這基本工資一直調漲好像薪水一直在調但是都是調最低的反而這大部分的沒有領基本工資的他們都沒有調漲所以這個每年每年的物價上漲通貨膨脹"},{"start":253.686,"end":271.825,"text":"就變成說看得到實質薪資是倒退的所以這部分會提出也希望何部長能夠重視這十幾年來他們很多人薪水都沒有調漲的問題希望何部長能夠以勞動部的大家長立場來幫我們來了解希望有機會能夠幫他們研議怎麼去解決這個問題"},{"start":274.005,"end":293.372,"text":"好那針對第二項那我也知道我們何部長是野百合世代社會運動公運農運出身所以我相信說對於工會這些組織的部分我認為何部長應該也都是非常關心那我想請問一下我們跳下一頁那針對我們"},{"start":294.813,"end":308.686,"text":"公會的組織門檻有很多的勞工跟我們來反映因為台灣是以中小企業為主有98%的企業他僱用的人數不到30人所以算起來有343萬"},{"start":311.108,"end":332.149,"text":"這受雇的勞工並沒有機會來組織這個工會甚至連我們中央銀行他都贊成降低門檻連我們立法院的法治局也認為30人的門檻對於我們中小企業組織工會的權利是受限制的不知道針對我們何部長針對這一部分你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":334.485,"end":354.42,"text":"跟委員報告,其實許部長他的這個談話是反映台灣社會的現實我們的中小企業真的占了台灣的產業的98%是非常龐大的一個部門到底工會的門檻下修有沒有幫助勞工的團結權其實這是一個問號"},{"start":357.422,"end":386.702,"text":"這真的是我們必須仔細的去分析到底有沒有用因為事實上他並不見得真正能夠提升勞工的團結權那因為事實上在30人以下的單位他本身在團結上面他會有一定程度的難度因為他跟資方之間就是一個家庭的關係類家庭的關係所以你說叫他去跟資方之間用這種公會抗爭的方式事實上也做不到所以事實上"},{"start":387.462,"end":407.545,"text":"所謂下修30人以下是不是多數勞工的中小企業內部勞工的想法這我們說真的要去確認因為針對這一部分我們之前詢問過我們許部長當然他說這個降低工會門檻容易影響企業的營運但是我們一直還是不斷接受到很多中小企業很多勞工他說認為"},{"start":408.806,"end":432.902,"text":"拜託他們組織這個工會的權利所以也希望何部長我一直認為說何部長也是我們社會運動出身也希望能夠對於我們這個人數比較少的中小企業這組織工會的部分希望何部長上來以後也能夠再重新演繹來重視一下是不是有機會能夠幫他們爭取一些他們合法能夠爭取的權益"},{"start":434.332,"end":458.16,"text":"我們會來研究討論好這一部分也請我們何部長來重視一下那還有我們最近尤其我們去年民洋大火之後有造成我們市民消防人員的殉職其實這幾年來陸陸續續都有很多很年輕很優秀的消防員因為救火保護我們人民生命財產而讓他自己"},{"start":458.88,"end":480.407,"text":"的生命受到損失而罹難那針對我們消防員組織工會的這一部分我請問一下我們何部長請問你對消防員組織工會的這個態度你是否支持我認為這個消防員還是要回歸公務人員協會法可是他們一直認為說這個"},{"start":482.568,"end":506.234,"text":"考試院的公務人員協會法這個門檻過高而且對於他們的協商權他們感覺都是被架空的委員跟您報告我們已經請考試院趕快把這個公務人員協會法關於協商的部分做一些放寬這個是比較實際的處理有效解決消防員的那種問題那如果要用公務人員協會法我們希望"},{"start":507.455,"end":529.894,"text":"這個門檻的部分要去做個調整還有他們所重視的協商權不應該被架空如果真的沒有辦法改善我們倒認為他組織工會的方式可以比照教師那大家一直都很擔心會有勞資爭議處理的問題我們可以像教師組工會一樣明定就是他們也禁止罷工我認為就應該可以解決這個問題"},{"start":531.335,"end":542.643,"text":"那當然這部分我們今天來講就是因為何部長新上來我們都把一些我們地方民眾的聲音勞工的聲音也希望能夠反映給我們部長知道還有我們從111年的時候我們有正式來統計也希望何部長來重視這個問題我們這個逃逸外勞逃逸外勞的部分已經超過8萬多人了已經超過8萬人那針對這部分而且"},{"start":560.697,"end":569.414,"text":"這個比例我們看起來是年年增加不知道我們勞動部有沒有什麼方法那何部長針對這部分你有沒有自己的看法跟解決方法"},{"start":570.509,"end":591.073,"text":"因為移工的失聯原因真的是很多啦 有勞動條件的問題啦 這個有一般缺工的問題這樣 可是就是說第一個我們可能要強化那個尤其是家庭看護工這一塊啦 他的薪資啦 有可以再提升的空間啦 然後讓他減少他逃跑的誘因啦"},{"start":591.633,"end":608.184,"text":"那這個是我們目前也許可以努力的方向那其次是強化那個職聘的服務讓他能夠可以自己自己的意願這樣子來進行各種的這樣子的所以我一直希望勞動部針對這一部分一定要來做事因為這個逃逸外勞"},{"start":608.985,"end":629.735,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":629.735,"end":645.574,"text":"那我想說這個台灣這個缺工問題也都非常嚴重也有人建議說因為他是自首專案移工他自首之後他就不能再返台來工作那我們想說是不是也勞動部跟內政部是不是有一個機會來研議是不是針對這個自首專案"},{"start":648.057,"end":667.405,"text":"什麼樣來推動是不是讓這移工也有機會能夠繼續在臺灣來工作因為他這個自首專案就是自首之後回去以後他就不能再返臺對不能再回來因為我覺得這個一方面解決逃逸外遙的問題也一方面希望能夠解決我們臺灣缺工嚴重的問題"},{"start":669.626,"end":674.089,"text":"我來跟移民署來討論好嗎希望這個部長針對這幾個議題先上任我們後面有無限揮灑的空間我們也對何部長有很大的期待希望以上幾個問題部長能夠為我們這些勞工朋友消防員能夠爭取他們合法的權益謝謝好謝謝涂權吉委員"}]}},{"id":"152884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453961cdfcfd7573b215d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e83cd1a1fb20885ccf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:13:28 - 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視下那應該要送到法務部檢查局還有調查局跟那個原證署那要一起來檢視這件事情我不會了解一下是的那不知道是圖利的程度還是賭值好那第二個部分呢國研院這個科技中心感覺好像"},{"start":197.295,"end":219.855,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":219.855,"end":242.483,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":243.203,"end":267.255,"text":"推動中心專案計劃。我們一聽到什麼中心專案計劃這都很容易讓人家聯想到一些某一些平台那這個平台裡面有太多的可能性所以這個部分這個計劃也請主委這邊了解那麼113年台灣可信任生成式的AI大員模型精進與素養能力這是我剛才講的都是很大的案子那另外"},{"start":268.015,"end":287.798,"text":"在民生公共物聯網的數據應用及產業開展計劃和邁向智慧國家決策支援暨科技計劃推動諮詢這些感覺很像軟性的東西這兩個計劃裡面分包的情形有沒有如所規定的"},{"start":289.127,"end":313.923,"text":"一樣也是請主委檢視然後給我一個專案報告或者是主委到我辦公室來好好的我們再溝通一下當然昨天我們的共通性我相信這一次的內閣大概把所有的相關的委員的資料都讀得很好所以也都投其所好的來做相關的一個溝通"},{"start":315.464,"end":329.166,"text":"我想主委這邊也知道一些問題不是說只有在你的單位組織裡面所以我相信主委應該是有這個能力而且還有這樣子的一個公平性能夠去處理本席這邊所提出來的疑慮"},{"start":333.028,"end":347.417,"text":"學術倫理有別的學術倫理在公部門的部分常常是公家的一些研究的成果會成為個人的發表"},{"start":348.459,"end":369.159,"text":"那這個部分我想可以再更省慎的做一個檢討那基本上也給學界樹立一個比較好的風範當然我們知道這個國研院也擔任了很多國科會的一個相關的連結支撐跟計畫的一些補助執行那所以這個部分你們怎麼做"},{"start":370.54,"end":371.201,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員"},{"start":398.587,"end":414.43,"text":"您們可以同問同答那補助跟執行單位有沒有把關因為其他的部會可能會出現一些可能不是內容性上的問題但是在發報出去的過程當中或者是執行的"},{"start":415.551,"end":424.274,"text":"當中那出現了一些不太嚴謹的行政作業流程跟行政的執行那這個請主委是會比較細但是當然您管的是很多的大政策跟策略可是很多的細節裡面藏了魔鬼所以但是這中間的細節會讓整個計劃執行變得掉所以我們都期待您的大政策大方向"},{"start":440.12,"end":440.22,"text":"解凍案7案"},{"start":456.11,"end":458.091,"text":"您是否也檢視一下110年的科技創新政策研議與支援促進計劃?"},{"start":476.398,"end":495.223,"text":"到112年的邁向智慧國家決策支援及科技計劃推動諮詢。我想請您親自查詢掛名的人員裡面有沒有在國科會工作但是在其他單位領津貼的狀況。所以以上的幾點如果"},{"start":502.062,"end":505.029,"text":"主委這邊檢視了那覺得有這個必要"},{"start":507.438,"end":535.936,"text":"檢察官、調查局、廉政署我希望來共同了解到底這是在什麼樣一個層次貪污、圖利、賭職這個部分今天絕對不是針對主委但是您剛接了有一些讓外界感覺打假球的狀況我一直對研究的單位抱有很大的一個寄望我期待研究單位可以做我們的一個典範"},{"start":537.53,"end":557.277,"text":"但這些細節在行政的處理上有的時候可能就會導引整個的計劃跟成果或者是推動的方向會失去了它的整體的動能是同意委員委員剛剛提到幾個包含大型計劃的核電還有我們的"},{"start":561.438,"end":575.085,"text":"國研院科證中心在處理外包案還有學術倫理等等這幾個議題我們會再整理我了解一下然後再整理然後專門到委員辦公室跟您報告"},{"start":577.2,"end":600.501,"text":"謝謝主委,在我的辦公室其實我們還可以繼續就昨天講的議題做進一步的討論以本席跟您的交流的結果我相信有很多的細節我們都知道它是導致最後成果很重要的環節所以我們希望您能夠好好的徹查這些事情"},{"start":602.802,"end":622.153,"text":"謝謝您剛到昨天也感謝這個會議院同仁讓我們有機會做一個交流那未來我們會就交流部分跟專業的一個討論那我們也希望透過您讓國科會的招牌再重新打亮好謝謝謝謝好那您也知道是原住民所以最後還是對您講一句謝謝"},{"start":628.936,"end":629.34,"text":"好謝謝謝謝林倩綺委員"}]}},{"id":"152883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152883","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531c2e5982ee9732daf1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8309b7597af34b2fa75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:11:32 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Eats跟foodpanda合併以後，會不會影響到現在已經是薄利多銷的平價小吃，未來會變成絕響？請主委回答。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，這個併購案我們在審查的過程中，也會把是不是因為競爭對手減少了，併購方有提高抬價的能力，您剛提到的問題，我們會一起綜合評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們兩個合併以後，市占率是不是超過五成？你們現在預計它是怎麼樣子的一個比率？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是第一大跟第二大，結合以後市占率是很高的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：超過五成以上一定是有的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個市場界定還要再精細一點，我們在109年的時候曾經做過分析，應有七、八成以上。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是七、八成之多？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是109年的數字，現在因為時間也過了幾年，所以要重新做市場的界定、要重新評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在市占率這麼高的情況下，會不會他們兩個合併以後，就造成所有店家支付給外送平台這樣一個售價比例會提高？如果提高的話，所有這些平價的業者都沒有辦法有跟他們議價的能力，以及現在已經有非常多的外送員講到的勞動權利問題。我想請問李主委，到時候他們一定會提出說明的時候，你們會用什麼樣子的點來要求他們？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想剛才委員提到的，包括外送員、包括餐廳以及消費者，這些將來跟併購方的議價能力、談判能力，這部分我們在審查的過程都會去評估，當然也要看併購方提出的結合計畫相關的內容，因為是5月14號才送件，我們現在還在彙整這些資料。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那要怎麼樣去確保勞動權利？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想將來委員會會去充分討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：勞動部專委，你剛才聽到主委說了，如果是超過五成，可能有達到七、八成之多，這樣子的一個合併案，怎麼樣確保目前Uber Eats跟foodpanda所有外送人員的勞動權利？勞動部要怎麼確保？"],["主席：請勞動部。"],["許專門委員根魁：跟委員回答，其實目前針對業者跟工會之間，我們有一個平台的會議，我們都會讓他們在這平台會議針對雙方問題進行一些對答，讓他們意見能夠互相……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是現在有兩家的情況下，可是未來合併成為一家……"],["許專門委員根魁：我們這個平台會議還是會繼續進行。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是當有兩家的時候，他們不選這一家，還可以選擇另外一家，可是未來兩家變成一家的情況下，你就變成沒有選擇性，在沒有選擇性的時候，勞動部針對相關的勞動權利應該要有另外的計畫，我希望你把這個意見帶回去，針對這個案子，應該要在未來的公聽會以及相關的會議上表達勞動部的意見，好不好？"],["許專門委員根魁：好，沒問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：李主委，我還要請問一下，當初你們同意了全聯跟大潤發的併購案，可是你們希望說，不要用禁止最惠客戶政策，就是不要用低價的方式來削價競爭，可是你們也罰了全聯，對不對？代表了這麼大的市占率的大型併購裡面，公平會過去的審查並沒有辦法確保我們消費者的權利，因為如果他們提高了每一單商品價格比例的時候，有可能最後還是會轉嫁到消費者身上，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們罰全聯2,000萬，是因為當時跟大潤發結合的時候，我們有給它一些負擔跟條件，所以它是因為沒有履行這些負擔跟條件而受處罰。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，我是說當初你給他們了，可是他們也沒有辦法完全按照這些要求來做，這只是其中的一件而已，未來你怎麼樣確保，就是Uber Eats跟foodpanda合併以後，如果他們提高了每一單商品售價的比例，因為他們都是抽取商品價格每一單的比例，現在是30%到33%，是有這樣子比例，未來如果他們收取的比例更高的情況下，有可能就會轉嫁到餐廳，而一些平價餐廳就會提高在平臺上面的商品售價，甚至會影響到店的商品售價，如果兩相提高的情況下，就會影響到消費者的權益，這怎麼處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員問的這個問題就是涉及到結合以後，併購方是不是因為競爭對手減少而有抬價的能力，這一部分我們在整個審查過程也會去注意到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道你會注意到，但我問你要如何確保？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想將來委員會討論的時候，在我們審查的過程中會一起去討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會討論，那你會不會確保消費者的權益，不會因為這樣而被抬價……"],["李主任委員鎂：消費者的權益對經濟的影響，是不是有限制競爭，這個會一起綜合來評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你會不會把消費者權益也一併納入考量？"],["李主任委員鎂：消費者權益也是我們要一起考慮的面向。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望你們要記得消費者權利，以及不要損及商家的利益，還有平價餐廳、店家的利益，以及這些外送平台外送員的利益，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","羅智強","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","黃捷","蔡易餘","林岱樺","陳冠廷","陳超明"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及\n對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬\n具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳\n銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.31221875,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.277843750000002,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.75784375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.17534375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.79034375,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.17784375,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.461593750000006,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.852843750000005,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.43784375,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.00721875,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.96221875,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.02971875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.97471875000001,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.02534375,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.04221875,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.14346875000001,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.97034375000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.03784375000001,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.30784375,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.42596875000001,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.47659375,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.56096875,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.96596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.28659375000001,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.69159375000001,"end":92.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.97846875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.02909375,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.90221875,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.13846875,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.54284375,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.10346875,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.65596875,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.69221875000001,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.99471875,"end":126.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.66096875000001,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.91409375,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.96471875,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.74909375000001,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.40596875,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.12284375000002,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.05596875,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.02534375000002,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.81409375,"end":172.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.84784375,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.91784375,"end":196.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.40534375000001,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.46409375000002,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.00784375,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.01596875,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.03284375,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.02346875,"end":226.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.20221875000001,"end":228.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.68284375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.01409375000003,"end":246.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.11909375000002,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.34659375,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.57534375,"end":280.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.94909375000003,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.99096875000004,"end":289.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.36971875,"end":291.023468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Eats跟Fupanda如果他們這個外送平台併購以後"},{"start":32.23,"end":49.705,"text":"到底他們兩個合併以後到底會不會影響到目前小吃店還要支付的就是每一單的這個比例是多少那以及未來外送員的權益是多少"},{"start":50.626,"end":55.888,"text":"如果兩個人合併以後,會不會影響到現在已經是博麗多銷的評價小吃,未來會變成絕響?請主委回答。"},{"start":71.499,"end":84.378,"text":"謝委員就是這個併購案我們在審查的過程也會把是不是因為競爭對手減少了那併購方有提高台價的能力您剛提到問題我們會一起綜合評估"},{"start":86.783,"end":113.738,"text":"他們兩個合併以後,超過市佔率,是不是超過五成?你們現在預計他是怎麼樣子的一個比率?一個是第一大跟第二大,那結合以後市佔率是很高。多少?多少?超過五成以上一定是有的。那是多少?市場界定還要再精細。我們在109年的時候曾經做過分析,有七八成以上。"},{"start":114.418,"end":128.824,"text":"所以是七八成之多這是109年那現在呢因為時間也過了幾年要再重新做市場的界定要重新評估所以如果市佔率這麼高的情況下"},{"start":130.024,"end":157.54,"text":"會不會他們兩個合併以後就造成所有店家支付給外送平台的這樣子的一個比例售價比例會提高那如果提高的時候所有的這些平價的業者都沒有辦法有跟他們議價的能力以及現在已經有非常多的外送員"},{"start":159.081,"end":171.749,"text":"講到的勞動權利的問題我想請問李主委如果他們到時候一定會提出說明的時候你們會用什麼樣子的點來要求他們"},{"start":172.864,"end":197.845,"text":"我想剛才委員提到的包括外送員包括餐廳以及消費者這些將來跟併購方的議價能力談判能力這一部分我們在審查的過程都會去評估那當然也要看併購方他提出的這個結合計畫相關的內容那因為現在呢5月14號才送件我們現在還在彙整這些資料那怎麼樣的確保勞動權利我想這將來委員會會去充分討論"},{"start":202.939,"end":226.072,"text":"勞動部的那個專委你剛才聽到主委說了如果是超過五成可能有達到七八成之多的這樣子的一個合併案怎麼樣子確保所有外送就是目前Uber Eats跟所有Foodpanda外送人員的勞動權利勞動部怎麼確保"},{"start":229.687,"end":246.963,"text":"跟委員回報其實我們目前我們都有在針對業者跟工會之間我們有一個平台的會議我們都會讓他們在這平台會議針對雙方問題進行一些對答讓他們意見能夠互相那現在有兩家的情況下可是未來是合併如果成為一家我們這個平台會議還是會繼續進行"},{"start":248.784,"end":263.194,"text":"對可是未來他們就沒有辦法當有兩家的時候他們不走這一家還可以選擇另外一家可是未來的情況是兩家變成一家的情況下你就變成沒有選擇性的那沒有選擇性的時候勞動部針對這樣子相關的勞動權利是應該要另外的計畫"},{"start":269.659,"end":278.67,"text":"我希望勞動你帶回去讓勞動部如果針對這個案子應該要在未來的公聽會以及相關的會議表達勞動部的意見好不好"},{"start":283.169,"end":309.803,"text":"還有李竺蔚我還要請問一下就是當初你們同意了全聯跟大潤發的併購案可是你們希望說不要用這樣子造成就是說用禁止最惠客戶的政策就是不要用低價的方式來消價競爭可是你們也罰了全聯對不對代表了這麼大的大型市佔率的併購裡面"},{"start":311.755,"end":331.426,"text":"公平會過去的審查並沒有辦法確保我們消費者的權利因為如果他們提高了就是每一單的就是每一單商品價格的比例的時候有可能最後還是會轉嫁到消費者身上是不是"},{"start":333.118,"end":355.371,"text":"我想這個全年我們罰他兩千萬是因為他當時跟大論法結合的時候我們給他一些負擔跟條件他沒有履行這些負擔跟條件而受處罰我知道 我是說你當初給他們了可是他們也沒有辦法就是說完全的按照那這只是其中的一件而已"},{"start":355.831,"end":370.823,"text":"二、審查８一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．一）本院委員楊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．二）本院委員楊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．二）本院委員楊瓔等24人擬具"},{"start":375.026,"end":375.426,"text":"二、審查（一）本院委員"},{"start":390.896,"end":391.076,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":410.39,"end":430.167,"text":"委員問的這個問題就是涉及到說結合以後並購方是不是因為競爭對手減少而有抬價的能力這一部分我們在整個審查過程也會去注意到對那我是說我知道你會注意到我說你怎麼確保我想這將來在這個委員會討論的時候我們審查的過程會一起去討論會討論那你會不會確保"},{"start":439.235,"end":439.595,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":469.478,"end":469.498,"text":"謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"152882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152882","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453c7b96b05f38ce8939f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e831e764f71d2506ef45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:05:48 - 10:16:23","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":635,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:16:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:05:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時5分）好，謝謝主席，是不是請部長？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：王召委好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好！部長，先恭喜你。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：你長期擔任幕僚，然後從幕後走向臺前，站上舞臺的滋味如何？被鎂光燈聚焦的滋味如何？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員的疼惜，然後給我很多信心，也請委員多多照顧、支持。"],["王委員育敏：目前還適應嗎？就是有這麼多媒體會開始追著你跑，然後站在備詢臺。"],["何部長佩珊：因為在立院也常常看到媒體追著你們跑……"],["王委員育敏：而且你曾經到司法及法制委員會。"],["何部長佩珊：對，所以可能也不會不習慣。"],["王委員育敏：所以你其實是滿勝任的。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，那接下來就進入到今天的主題，我想全國勞工最關注的就是勞保到底會不會破產的議題，而這個議題從蔡英文政府8年，當時說軍公教勞一起改，結果蔡總統已經卸任了，但是勞保改革的列車完全沒有啟動，關於這個部分，我們看到賴總統520就職演說，他說有政府在，勞保就不會倒，會當大家的靠山。那這是不是意味著賴清德沒有要走蔡英文的路線，在賴清德任內不會啟動勞保的任何年金改革？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，是這樣子，我想施政是延續的，那施政過去如果有值得檢討的地方，那也是必須要面對的，我想我也有跟您報告過，勞保年改跟軍公教改革是不一樣的問題。"],["王委員育敏：所以當時蔡總統所說的軍公教勞一起改，他其實是在騙軍公教，就是其實勞本來就沒有要改，還是說它改不了？"],["何部長佩珊：其實是嘗試改過的，在2017年就把勞保年改條例送到立院來，可是在立院是完全沒有辦法推動的，朝野都無法支持，我們就是有這樣子失敗的經驗，所以也進行了檢討。"],["王委員育敏：好，我只是要確認一件事情，是不是賴總統任內不會啟動勞保年金改革，並沒有這樣的方案，撥補是唯一的選項？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，撥補就是改革……"],["王委員育敏：這個跟大家的認知差了有點遠，部長，我必須糾正你一下，撥補不是改革，如果撥補是改革的話，我覺得軍公教只要用撥補就好了，就是撥補是改革，然後有政府在其實就不會倒，如果這個邏輯是通的話，我相信軍公教整個基金的規模比勞保小更多，所以其實我要提醒的是，當政府就是有責任，就是要承擔，而面對問題，當然你們現在可以提出要撥補，但是我要講一句話，撥補其實是治標不治本，如果撥補這麼的簡單，就像我剛剛講的，軍公教根本不用改啊！對不對？因為有政府在就不會倒，大家都一致啊！當時其實不用啟動任何的改革。"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員報告，其實我們現在對軍公教也有進行撥補，即便是現在。"],["王委員育敏：但是你還是改了，對不對？你減少了他所得的部分嘛！所以這個部分我還是要提醒，我們尊重賴總統不啟動勞保年金改革，但是撥補就只是一個治標的方案，你如果看到這一個圖，你就可以知道，當時間軸再拉長的時候，撥補真的可以讓勞保基金不倒嗎？這個就只是一個短暫的治標，這個是我要告訴部長的。","接下來另外一個就是有關於勞工工時的問題，部長你應該知道，勞工工時在你們今天的報告裡面也有提到，你們提到每月工時現在是162.2小時，換算起來，年的部分大概就是我們現在看到的這個數字，我們勞工全年正常工時是1923.6小時，排名全球第六，這不是一個好的排名，我們比鄰近的日本、韓國其實還要多，部長，你知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，日、韓跟我們的比較有一個結構性差異，日、韓的部分工時者太多，我們是部分工時者低，所以平均下來他們就比較短，我們就會比較高，可是我們的勞工事實上是全時工作比較多，所以相對來講，我們勞工是比較有保障的，憑良心講是這樣子。"],["王委員育敏：部長我請教你，你認為臺灣的勞工有過勞的問題嗎？工時有太長的問題嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這個部分當然我想勞工的感受，我可以體會，就是說這種疲倦、在職場上這樣子的感受，我想我們都必須去面對勞工這種心理感受。"],["王委員育敏：你覺得只是心理感受？但是年加班工時是96小時，這樣不高嗎？全球排名第六，不高嗎？所以這個部分，我希望部長你還是要注意。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員育敏：你是勞動部部長，所以你的角色應該是要跟勞工站在一起。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["王委員育敏：過去你是行政院秘書長，必須幫行政院、幫院長做一些政策的辯護，我覺得角色上是不一樣的，因為勞工朋友對你是有期待的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員育敏：以前許銘春部長都會說「我是勞工的大家長」，你要不要講一遍，你是勞工的大家長？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["王委員育敏：你是？"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["王委員育敏：對，勞工的大家長，我希望你把勞工的權益一定是永遠擺在優先，而不是企業。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["王委員育敏：我想這個角色要非常清楚，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，既然是勞工的權益，最近有一個最關注的是外送平臺Uber Eats跟foodpanda整個要整併，所以未來臺灣就只有一家外送，獨大的時候，它衍生的問題，這個獨大某種程度就是壟斷，當獨大又壟斷的時候，請問這些外送人員的權益應該怎麼樣去照顧？我這邊提出3個問題，第一個，平臺合併變成單一平臺之後，外送員的議價能力，即使他們有工會，相對上來講，這個是不是會更弱勢？會不會？"],["何部長佩珊：會，當然會。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分我們勞動部有沒有想到什麼方案？"],["何部長佩珊：所以勞動部必須做他們的後盾，支撐他們一起跟資方談判，我們會這樣處理。"],["王委員育敏：除了口頭的支撐之外，在法令上面……"],["何部長佩珊：不是口頭、不是口頭喔！我們是實質作為。"],["王委員育敏：比如說？講具體一點好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：像5月29號已經要進行他們雙邊對話的討論，資方會參與。"],["王委員育敏：是你們召開的？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是我們召開的，資方也答應參與了。"],["王委員育敏：好，主要的內容、要談及什麼具體的事項？"],["何部長佩珊：請司長來報告。"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，我們談了好幾個題目，第一個題目就是併購後，外送員工很關心的相關權益的問題，我們也把他們的訴求都提供給2家主要的業者，特別是Uber，也希望它當天能夠提出比較明確的一些說法。"],["王委員育敏：如果外送員的訴求，平臺並不接受，請問勞動部有任何其他的方法跟工具？"],["何部長佩珊：我們正在想辦法，委員您點到重點，確實這個平臺是相當強勢，因為他們都是跨國企業。"],["王委員育敏：跨國企業也要適用臺灣的法令。"],["何部長佩珊：對，當然。"],["王委員育敏：如果我們有一部中央的法令來規範、要求，我覺得這個才會是強而有力的後盾，目前的情況是地方政府去訂定自治條例，但坦白講，我覺得那個要求其實是很有限，今天如果是由中央政府機關針對這個部分如何去保障外送員的相關權益事項，包括他們的訴求、一些關鍵的讓它入法，讓它有法令依據，管它是多大的外商平臺，來到臺灣，你就得適用臺灣的法令，來到臺灣，你就必須把臺灣的外送員他們的權益視為你營運裡面最重要的部分，不准有剝削，而且不准它任意的去抬高價格，這個不只是外送員的權益，將來它如果任意哄抬，我們每一個人可能都遭殃，每一個人可能都有點外送的經驗，它愛怎麼抬高就抬高，因為你今天要點外送，只剩這一家，這個問題我希望勞動部要去好好關切，過去我們中央並沒有立法，現在有委員的版本已經開始進來了，我覺得這個部分我們必須展現臺灣的公權力，這些外商要來這邊賺錢沒有關係，但請遵守臺灣的法令，這個部分勞動部可以去研議嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我知道外送平臺的專法已經都在委員會裡面了，這個部分我們會審慎來研議、討論。其次，我們會強化各部會的合作，包括公平會對這個併購過程的審查，必須會勞動部意見，另外還有跟交通部，因為Uber這些平臺的主管機關其實是相關的部會，我們必須強化跟各部會的聯合處理。"],["王委員育敏：好，這件事我希望勞動部也要有自己的角色，廣大的外送員就是你們必須去服務跟照顧的對象，好不好？不要讓他們變成越來越弱勢。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝王育敏委員發言。在這邊先作以下宣告：等一下在林淑芬委員質詢結束後休息10分鐘。","現在請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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這個是我要告訴部長的那接下來另外一個就是有關於勞工工時的問題 這個部長你應該知道 這個勞工工時在你們今天的報告裡面也有提到"},{"start":258.939,"end":279.564,"text":"每月工時你們提到現在是162.2換算起來年大概就是我們現在看到這個數字我們勞工全年的正常工時1923.6排名全球第6了那這個不是一個好的排名我們比臨近的日本、韓國其實還要多部長你知道嗎當然越高吧日本的話它是越韓的工時比較低"},{"start":288.869,"end":290.21,"text":"所以部長我請教你,你認為臺灣的勞工有過勞的問題嗎?工時有太長的問題嗎?"},{"start":318.915,"end":333.671,"text":"這一個部分當然我想勞工的感受我可以體會就是說這種疲倦在職場上的這樣子的一個感受那我想我們都必須要去面對勞工這種心理感受"},{"start":335.153,"end":353.565,"text":"你覺得只是心理感受但是每個月的加班工時這邊是96小時就是年加班工時96小時這樣不高嗎全球排名第6不高嗎所以這個部分我希望這個部長你還是要注意是勞動部部長所以你的角色"},{"start":354.465,"end":371.498,"text":"應該是要跟勞工站在一起的跟過去你是行政院秘書長必須幫行政院幫院長就是在做一些政策的辯護我覺得角色上是不一樣的因為勞工部對你是有期待的以前許民村部長都會說我是勞工的大家長"},{"start":372.759,"end":399.317,"text":"你要不要講一遍你是勞工的大家長當然你是當然當然對那勞工的大家長我就希望你把勞工的權益一定是永遠擺在優先而不是企業當然我想這個角色要非常清楚好不好是是是另外一個既然是勞工的權益最近有一個最關注的是外送平台這個Uber Eats跟那個Foodpanda整個要整併那所以未來台灣就只有一家外送"},{"start":400.237,"end":402.8,"text":"那獨大的時候其實他衍生的問題這個獨大某種程度就是壟斷那當獨大又壟斷的時候請問這一些外送人員的權益應該要怎麼樣去照顧我這邊提出三個問題第一個"},{"start":417.077,"end":436.317,"text":"就是說平台合併變成單一平台之後外送員的溢價能力即使他們有公會在相對上來講這個是不是會更弱勢會不會會喔會當然會那這個部分我們勞動部也會想到所以必須勞動部做他們的後盾是支撐他們一起跟職場談判是"},{"start":439.122,"end":450.59,"text":"我們會來這樣處理除了是口頭的支撐之外在法令上面不是口頭喔我們是實質作為比如說講具體一點好不好像我們5月29號已經要進行他們雙邊的對話的討論我們資方也會參與是你們召開的對對是我們召開的是資方也答應參與了好那主要的內容要談及什麼具體的事項來那個市長要報告"},{"start":467.682,"end":483.713,"text":"跟委員報告我們談了好幾個題目但是第一個題目就是賓購後在衛生員工很關心的相關缺因的問題那我們也把他們的訴求也提供給兩家主要的業者特別是Uber那也希望他當天能夠提出比較明確的一些說法"},{"start":484.173,"end":507.049,"text":"那如果這個外送員的訴求其實平台並不接受請問勞動部有任何的其他的方法跟工具我們正在想辦法這是委員您點到重點確實這平台是相當強勢的因為他們都是跨國企業跨國企業也要適用台灣的法律如果我們有一部中央的法律"},{"start":509.331,"end":525.903,"text":"來規範來要求我覺得這個才會是強而有力的後盾目前的情況是地方政府去訂定自治條例但坦白講我覺得那個要求其實是很有限但今天如果是由中央政府機關針對這個部分如何去保障外送員的相關權益事項包括他們的訴求一些關鍵的"},{"start":532.708,"end":545.881,"text":"讓他入法讓他有法令依據管他是多大的外商平台來到台灣你就得適用台灣的法令來到台灣你就必須把台灣的外送員他們的權益"},{"start":547.903,"end":569.601,"text":"視為是你營運裡面最重要的部分不准有剝削而且不准他去任意的去抬高價格這個不只是外送員的權益他將來他如果任意烘台我們每一個人可能都遭殃每一個人可能都有點外送的這個經驗愛他怎麼抬高就抬高因為你今天要點外送只剩這一家這個問題我希望"},{"start":571.402,"end":585.507,"text":"勞動部其實是要去好好關切的而過去我們中央並沒有立法現在有委員的版本已經開始進來了我覺得這個部分我們必須展現台灣我們的公權力讓這一些外商要來這邊賺錢沒有關係"},{"start":587.128,"end":593.835,"text":"但請遵守臺灣的法令。這個部分勞動部可以去研議嗎?是當然這個委員我知道這邊外雙平台的專法已經都在委員會裡面了對這東西這部分我們會審慎來研議討論對那其次我們會強化各部會的合作包括對公平會這個併購的過程"},{"start":606.288,"end":635.094,"text":"﹚"}]}},{"id":"152881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453c3784f50fb8024ca5d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e83921d6916cc5d66935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:59:13 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10:13:21","影片長度":"00:14:08","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":848,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:13:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:59:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時59分）謝謝召委，我們有請吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：主委好。主委，在賴總統的就職演說當中，我們看到他特別提到要發展AI產業，推動臺灣成為AI之島，您先前在受訪當中，本席有注意到你也說願意接任國科會主委這個位置是因為認同賴總統的政見，您也說到人工智慧是未來臺灣產業轉型、社會跟教育發展的重要關鍵，可見您心中對於臺灣的AI發展是不是已經有明確的想法了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的看法就是AI技術、本身的基礎研究會持續進行，這個我們一直在資助。同時，AI的應用不能只在科技領域，還要應用到其他各行各業。"],["萬委員美玲：當然。要打造臺灣成為AI之島，那麼主委就應該非常清楚且必須掌握目前臺灣產業AI化的狀況，至少現況是您必須清楚的。就您目前所知，臺灣目前產業AI化程度是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有相當的距離。"],["萬委員美玲：跟什麼還有相當的距離？"],["吳主任委員誠文：與在高科技上的應用。"],["萬委員美玲：還是跟賴總統口中的AI之島有相當的距離？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這是我們努力的方向。"],["萬委員美玲：也是？好。根據財團法人人工智慧科技基金會所公布的2023臺灣產業AI化大調查顯示，在個人或部門內使用生成式AI工具的約有38.2%，但導入公司營運流程的只有16%。換句話說，整體臺灣企業有84%恐怕還處於AI的前期階段！本席認為主委剛剛答得很好，因為我們一定要面對問題，才有辦法把問題解決。現在看起來，如果要馬上成為AI之島，距離其實還滿大的，所以我們應該要更務實一點，也就是如果臺灣僅在半導體先進製程的利基上就要來做AI之島的話，好像有點不切實際！誠如您今天的答詢所說，除了硬體、軟體開發之外，更重要的是導入企業或民眾生活上的應用。我相信您對於智慧教育、智慧家電、醫療或交通等等，心中應該都有一個藍圖，才有可能去打造AI之島，這是您心中的想法嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：往這個方向是沒有錯。"],["萬委員美玲：往這個方向是沒有錯？您剛剛說我們臺灣產業AI化的程度離賴總統所謂的AI之島，還有滿遠的距離，您上任國科會主委後，您心裡有沒有打算用多少時間來規劃、打造AI之島？"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI在不同產業的應用有不同的難度，我們會循序漸進，以臺灣……"],["萬委員美玲：您的循序漸進，如果以短、中、長程來說，我不問您太遠的，請問您短程的目標是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：短程是在未來四年內，希望能夠改善一些特定的傳統產業。"],["萬委員美玲：哪些特定的傳統產業？"],["吳主任委員誠文：包含IC設計領域與製造業的結合。再來，在其他服務業部分，我們特別重視國民健康，所以在健康照護領域上我們會先推動。"],["萬委員美玲：上個月風傳媒專訪一位臺大資工系副教授，指出現在臺灣AI發展處於落後階段，這是學者專家講的，且面臨了四個挑戰，不曉得主委知不知道這四個挑戰？我在這裡跟您說一下：第一，監管法規的制定，這點您一定知道。第二，缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫，這點過去我們在委員會提過很多次。再來，只重硬體、輕軟體，這是產業界的狀況，這點您一定也有掌握。第四，面對AI時代教育，我們到底要怎麼因應？這四個問題您有去思考過嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有思考過。"],["萬委員美玲：覺得哪一個問題最嚴重？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都嚴重。"],["萬委員美玲：都嚴重？可解決嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可解決。"],["萬委員美玲：誰可以來解決？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們全部的人都要一起努力。"],["萬委員美玲：都要一起努力，是不是？有把握嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有把握。"],["萬委員美玲：很好！第一天來備詢就這麼有信心，我為你的信心覺得很振奮。但是主委，面對AI的快速發展，人類除了很興奮之外，同時我相信大家也一定都戒慎恐懼。國際上有許多專家也提出相關警告，一旦AI失控，可能對人類帶來許多威脅。所以現在各國都在研議立法對AI發展進行一些控管，但這就很兩難了。也就是說如果監管得比較嚴，可能發展上就比較沒有競爭力；但如果監管得太鬆，也可能導致失控。今年3月13日歐盟通過全球第一部人工智慧法案，內容對AI採用高度且嚴格的監管，並依照風險劃分有高額罰款，甚至有禁用規定在內，整部法看起來是比較嚴厲的。之前吳政忠主委說，臺灣不會走歐盟的路，而會朝日本、美國、英國的方向走。早上我也聽到您說，會延續吳政忠主委的作法，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會兩者兼顧，就是說……"],["萬委員美玲：哪兩者兼顧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：監管跟發展兩個都要兼顧，我們要照顧到……"],["萬委員美玲：很厲害耶！聽起來就是既可以有歐盟很嚴格的監管，又可以朝現在日本、美國的方向去做，請問如何做到兩者兼顧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我舉簡單的例子說明。AI是工具，人類的工具。這就好像去買一把菜刀，而菜刀就是做菜的用途，要把它控制在範圍內，不能拿來做壞事，所以一定是兩者要兼顧。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，兩者兼顧這句話說得非常好，但絕對沒有你想的這麼簡單。如果這麼簡單，就不會歐盟採取某一項，而日本、美國、英國又另外採取某一項。如何做到兩者兼顧？我想我們拭目以待，能兩者兼顧當然是最好的。國科會在去年9月就提出AI基本法草案，只是後來先推出指引，立法上有些延宕，今天也聽您說要提早到今年10月提出。現在距離10月大概不到半年時間，你有信心可以提出來，而且是很完整，是您口中所謂可兼顧的草案嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的規劃是這個樣子。我們一定要推出，因為AI的變化一直在變，法案推出來以後，將來還是會有新的科技進展……"],["萬委員美玲：當然！"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以一定要持續不斷去改善。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們希望10月能夠具體看到，好不好？最後本席在這邊提醒一下，我們在AI發展上其實已經落後了，因此在研擬AI專法草案時，除了您心中已經思考到的面向之外，對於現在在開發訓練的本土AI模型亦應注意。因為AI要去蒐集，還要學習大量資料，尤其是繁體中文資料缺乏，還有著作權相關問題，我希望在考慮保護人權、產業發展之餘，以上本席所提醒的問題也希望主委能夠注意。","另外，賴總統在就職演說當中提到要發展通訊低軌衛星，帶領臺灣進軍全球的太空產業。在過去幾年，國科會編列了69.4億推動B5G低軌通訊衛星計畫，自行研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星，且其中通訊酬載的製作研發是委由工研院來進行，這個您知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我瞭解。"],["萬委員美玲：瞭解？很好。總經費八億多，對於當初選擇國內自行研發而沒有向國外購買，其實我們非常支持，也非常肯定，因為一方面可以增加關鍵技術的自主能力，二方面可以帶動本土衛星相關產業鏈的發展，這一點主委認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：認同。"],["萬委員美玲：認同？很好。據本席瞭解，原本兩顆都是由工研院來研發的通訊酬載，其中一顆已經變成向國外採購。上個月我質詢林敏聰前副主委，他回答說原本兩顆都給工研院做，但去年年底要完成的工程體變成今年才能完成，原因是因為，主委請聽：工研院經驗不足，遇到技術瓶頸，導致時程延誤，所以改弦易轍，有一顆向國外購買，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：細節我還不知道，我可以請太空中心……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，讓我跟你講完。這是上個月在這裡，林敏聰副主委所回答的，但經過本席詳細瞭解後發現，工研院根本沒有遇到瓶頸，也不是經驗不足做不出來！而是已經做好的工程體要送到外國實驗室去測試跟驗證，卻因為疫情關係，導致外國實驗室關閉了。後來疫情過了以後，實驗室重新打開，卻因案量太大，所以大家都在排隊；因為要排隊受測，以致延誤了。根本不是國科會前副主委在這裡所說的那樣！我想請教一下，事實到底是什麼？工研院做得好好的，為什麼會講出一個根本不是事實的理由去誣陷工研院？還把其中一顆轉向國外購買？原因是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可不可允許由太空中心主任來回答？因為我……"],["萬委員美玲：所以這件事您還不明白？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的確不瞭解，我還不瞭解。"],["萬委員美玲：可以，請說。"],["吳主任宗信：委員好，我是太空中心主任吳宗信。我們原來的計畫是兩顆B5G，第一顆確定委由工研院發展通訊酬載。照我們原來的規劃，在2025年第一顆要發射……"],["萬委員美玲：我想請教一下，你後來有一顆改向國外購買，是因為工研院的經驗不足、技術遇到瓶頸，導致時程延誤，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任宗信：他們現在根據跟我們的……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，我想您在這邊說的話要負責任，之前那個副主委已經不在這個位置上了，所以您今天所有的說法，我覺得要符合事實，好不好？"],["吳主任宗信：對，他們現在只能，就是原來是2025、2026，然後第一顆我們是答應給他們做，第二顆那時候沒有決定，然後現在他們2025要發射的那一顆已經確定延遲到2028。根據他們給我們的報告，就是工研院，所以已經會delay三年，然後再因為我們除了這個，我們發展上面衛星酬載的技術以外，我們同時上去也要提供國內的，因為國內有非常大的IT網通產業在做地面的設備，要做end to end的測試，所以我們為了不要讓這整個期程延宕太久，所以第二個我們是希望可以引進跟學習外國的……"],["萬委員美玲：我想你其實並沒有回答本席剛才所提出來的一個疑慮喔，因為上一次林敏聰副主委在這邊提的很清楚，是因為工研院的經驗不足嘛，然後它延宕，但是本席得到的訊息其實不是這樣，而是他們已經完成了工程體，但是因為在受測、驗證的過程當中，在國外的實驗室延誤了，所以我想這一點，一週之內必須給我一個真相，如果這個真相不是像今天所回答的，我想今天國科會必須要負責任。我們當然希望，我們所有的計畫都能夠按照期程來做，中間有了一些變化，不是不能夠調整，但是事實真相是什麼，我們是覺得應該要說清楚、講明白，這個部分主委您認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們一週之內給委員書面報告。"],["萬委員美玲：最好是能夠來我辦公室跟我說明，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們會到委員辦公室說明。"],["萬委員美玲：剩下最後一分鐘，這個問題非常重要喔，我想我們在海外成立了第一個基地，海外基地在捷克布拉格。這個部分其實本席在委員會已經問過非常多次，現在因為4月18號我們已經確定，就是成立了嘛，但有一個最大的問題，主委不知道有沒有去注意到，也就是說，我們現在在那裡成立，總共是2億的經費，然後我們師資預計要過去10位教授，另外，我們在那邊培養50位，在當地培養50位國際生，來臺交換生50位，我們這樣就花了2億的經費，然後師資10位過去，當時我們就是在擔憂，我們花這麼多的心力，但是這一些人、這些學生，將來真的可以投入到為我們半導體所用，為我們臺灣國家所用嗎？你有沒有把握，可以把這100個學生的人才真的留在臺灣，為臺灣所用？這個目標能達成嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，可以允許我請同仁，請科技辦公室……"],["萬委員美玲：我想這樣啦，因為今天我時間也到了，雖然召委人很好，沒有限定我時間，但是我想這個部分是不是一樣會後一週內，請主委要來做說明，因為您剛上任，我就不太為難您，但是我們第一個海外科技基地非常的重要，我們這個過程要怎麼走，我們預計達到的目標要怎麼做，我希望主委瞭解以後到我辦公室來詳細說明，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，兩個議題我再跟您報告。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，主委請回。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.472843750000001,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.437843750000003,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.90096875,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.94721875,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.71034375,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.275968750000004,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.98284375,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.65534375,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.16971875,"end":84.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.20346875,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.96284375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.03034375,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.82346875,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.87409375,"end":85.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.38034375000001,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.41409375,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.03846875,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.76721875000001,"end":94.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.80721875,"end":162.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.89159375,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.11096875,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.49471875,"end":185.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.00596875000002,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.93721875,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.55659375000002,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.11346875,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.24346875,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.26034375,"end":207.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.15034375000002,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.37659375,"end":225.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.00409375,"end":266.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.84159375,"end":267.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.60096875,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.67659375,"end":270.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.40221875000003,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.48221875,"end":272.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.46096875,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.00096875,"end":273.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.74346875000003,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.96284375,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.03034375000004,"end":274.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.85721875,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.02596875,"end":275.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.21159375,"end":275.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.24534375,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.97096875,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.03846875,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.13971875000004,"end":277.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":136.157,"end":161.182,"text":"在半導體先進製程上的利基上面我們就說我們要來做AI指導了好像有點不切實際了所以陳柔宁今天的答詢除了硬體軟體的開發之外我們要導入企業或者是民眾生活上面的應用其實非常的重要我相信您對於智慧教育、智慧家電、醫療或交通等等應該都有一個藍圖在心中才有可能去成為AI指導這是您心中的想法嗎?"},{"start":164.569,"end":182.486,"text":"您剛是說距離我們整個台灣產業要AI化的這個程度以及距離賴總統所謂的AI之島還有一個這個這個好像聽起來蠻遠的一個距離在那國科會您上任的你有沒有心理去打算要用多少的時間來規劃打造這個AI之島"},{"start":187.025,"end":205.014,"text":" AI其實在不同的產業的應用它有不同的難度那我們會循序漸進那您的循序漸進如果以短中長程來說的話不要問你太遠短程你的目標是什麼短程在未來4年內希望能夠改善特定的一些傳統產業"},{"start":206.297,"end":225.327,"text":"哪一些特定的傳統產業包含在IC設計領域跟我們的製造業的結合再來就是說在其他的服務業的部分我們特別重視的是國民健康所以在健康照護的領域我們也會先去推動"},{"start":226.087,"end":230.75,"text":"上個月我們看到風傳媒在專訪我們臺大施工系的一個副教授也指出來臺灣的AI現在處於落後的階段這學者專家講的而且面臨了四個挑戰這四個挑戰我不曉得主委您知不知道我在這裡跟您說一下第一個"},{"start":245.64,"end":256.026,"text":"第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整的繁體中文資料庫第二、缺乏完整"},{"start":273.029,"end":274.23,"text":"但是我想主委AI快速的發展"},{"start":288.422,"end":310.52,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":310.52,"end":310.66,"text":"議員吳誠文列席"},{"start":327.551,"end":357.551,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":358.311,"end":374.439,"text":"我們會兩者兼顧,就是說 監管跟發展,兩個都要兼顧。我們要照顧到人權。 聽起來就是說,又可以有這個歐盟很嚴格的監管,又可以有日本美國現在這個的方向去做,那如何做到兩者兼顧?"},{"start":375.639,"end":390.851,"text":"我舉個簡單的例子啦因為AI是工具人類的工具就好像你去買一把菜刀這個菜刀就是做菜的用途你要把它控制在那個範圍那不能拿它來做壞事啊所以一定是兩者要兼顧啊"},{"start":391.394,"end":391.614,"text":"兩者兼顧兩者兼顧當然是最好"},{"start":410.197,"end":431.294,"text":"國科會其實在去年9月就提出了這個AI基本法的草案那後來變成指引在立法大家就有一些延宕那今天也聽您在講說您要把它提早到今年的10月就要把它提出來那事實上距離到10月大概半年不到的時間您有信心可以把它提出來而且是一個很完整而且是您口中所謂的可兼顧的草案嗎"},{"start":432.386,"end":433.627,"text":"我們希望這個10月能夠具體看到好不好"},{"start":449.68,"end":478.379,"text":"最後我想本席在這邊提醒一下我想我們在AI的發展上面其實已經落後了所以AI專法的草案在研擬的時候除了您心中有已經思考到的面向之外對於現在在開發訓練本土AI模型我想對於AI要去收集還有學習大量的資料尤其是凡文中文的資料的缺乏還有著作權相關的問題我希望我們在考慮保護人權產業發展之餘以上本席所提醒的希望主委也要能夠注意"},{"start":479.119,"end":490.222,"text":"另外再來關於我們也是一樣賴總統在就職演說當中也有提到要發展通訊低軌衛星然後帶領台灣要進軍全球的太空產業事實上過去幾年國科會編列了69.4億推動B5G低軌通訊衛星的計畫要自行研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星而當中的通訊籌載的製作研發"},{"start":506.167,"end":529.635,"text":"是委由工研院進行兩科製作這個您知道嗎我瞭解你瞭解很好那總經費8億多那當初去選擇我們國內自行研發而沒有向國外購買其實我們非常支持也肯定因為一方面我們可以增加這個關鍵技術的自主能力二方面我們可以帶動我們自己盆土衛星相關產業鏈的發展這一點主委認同嗎認同認同很好"},{"start":532.256,"end":558.478,"text":"我這個劇本其實了解原本這兩顆都是要由工研院來研發的通訊籌載其中一顆我們變成要向國外來做採購那上個月我還質詢我們這個林明聰前副主委的時候他回答說原本這兩顆就是我們都是給工研院做然後去年年底要完成的工程體變成今年才能完成那原因是因為你聽喔原因是因為工研院積怨不足遇到技術瓶頸導致時程延誤"},{"start":560.7,"end":564.601,"text":"所以改弦易撤然後來一棵向國外購買是這樣嗎?這個細節我還不知道我可以請太空中心主委來我跟您講完這正是上個月在這裡我們這個林明聰副主委回答的但是經過本席詳細去了解以後發現公研院根本就沒有遇到瓶頸也不是經驗不足做不出來而是他已經做好這個工程體"},{"start":585.589,"end":605.742,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":605.882,"end":618.099,"text":"我想請教一下事實到底是什麼我們到底為什麼工研院做得好好的那我們講出一個根本不是事實的理由去誣陷工研院然後呢我們就把其中一顆去給向國外去購買原因是什麼"},{"start":620.725,"end":637.847,"text":"可不可以允許臺灣中心主任來回答,因為我的確不瞭解。請說。委員好,我是臺灣中心主任吳宗鑫。我想這個我們原來的計畫是B5G是兩顆,然後確定是第一顆是由委有公園發展這個通訊籌載。"},{"start":638.948,"end":644.933,"text":"然後照我們原來規劃是在2025第一顆要發射那個我想請教一下啦你後來一顆改向國外來購買是因為工研院的這個經驗不足技術遇到瓶頸導致是很延誤是這樣嗎他們現在的根據跟我們那個對不起我想您這邊說的話要負責任喔之前那個副主委已經不在了他已經不在這個位置上了一定不在這個位置上了所以您今天所說法我覺得要符合事實喔好不好對對對"},{"start":666.252,"end":672.637,"text":"因為他們現在只能就原來是2025、25、26然後第一顆我們是答應給他們做第二顆那時候沒有決定然後他們現在2025要發射那一顆現在已經確定延遲到2028根據他們跟我們的報告就是公務員委員所以已經delay會3年然後在因為我們除了這個我們發展上面衛星籌載的技術以外我們同時上去要提供國內的因為國內有非常大的IT網通產業在做地面的設備"},{"start":694.633,"end":695.454,"text":"主委,我想其實並沒有回答本席剛才所提出來的一個疑慮"},{"start":709.71,"end":720.275,"text":"因為上一次林明聰副主委在這邊提的很清楚是因為工研院的經驗不足然後他延宕但是得到的訊息其實不是這樣而是他們已經完成了工程體但是因為在授冊、驗證的過程當中在國外的實驗室去延誤了所以我想這一點一週之內必須給我一個真相如果這個真相不是像今天所回答的那我想今天國科會必須要負責任"},{"start":739.005,"end":739.325,"text":"一周之內給委員書面報告。"},{"start":757.018,"end":758.519,"text":"在海外成立的第一個基地海外基地在捷克在布拉格那這個部分"},{"start":772.132,"end":775.755,"text":"本席在委員會問過非常多次那現在因為4月18號我們已經確定了這是成立了有一個最大的問題主委不知道有沒有去注意到也就是說我們現在在那裡成立這個經費兩億兩億的經費然後我們師資預計要過去十位教授另外我們在那邊培養"},{"start":791.787,"end":815.523,"text":"五十位在當地培養五十位國際生來台交換生五十位那我們這樣花了兩億的經費然後失之十位過去當時我們就是在擔憂我們花這麼多的心力那但是這一些人這一些學生將來真的可以投入到為我們半島體所用為我們台灣國家所用嗎你有沒有把握可以把這100個學生的人才真的留在台灣為台灣所用這個目標能達成嗎"},{"start":818.854,"end":845.285,"text":"委員可以允許我請同仁科技...我想這樣因為今天我時間也到了雖然這個召委人很好沒有心理我時間但是我想這個部分是不是會後一樣一週內我請主委要來做說明因為您剛上任我就不太為難您但是呢我們第一個海外科技基地非常的重要我們這個過程要怎麼走那我們預計達到的目標要怎麼做那我希望主委了解以後到我辦公室來詳細說明好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453daf2563bf4bd26c5f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83832af3c97282b30b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:04:05 - 10:11:29","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":444,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:11:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T10:04:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時4分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，公平會最重要要對於獨占行為及聯合行為的限制競爭，或者是不公平的競爭行為，公平會都要發揮最積極的作用，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果有違反了禁止事業體之合併，有違法、罪證確鑿的就要開重罰，是不是？","上週二，Uber Eats宣布要用9億5,000萬元的美金併購foodpanda，雖然這個併購在5月14號已經送件到公平會，但是所有的消費者開始緊張了，他們的權益會受到損失，尤其是foodpanda跟Uber Eats他們兩家占有外送平台將近八成的市場，在這種情形之下，獨占市場的情形就有可能會發生，但我們看到公平會並沒有禁止這獨占市場的存在，我們擔心這會影響公平競爭的行為，所以如果發生，公平交易法都要重罰。我在這邊再次提醒公平會，你們的職掌、職責一定要積極做到，想請問主委，現在他們送件進去需要多少時間來審查？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要先看他們的文件是不是齊備，有一些規定的文件，文件齊備以後開始受理，那是30天的審查期間，必要的時候可以再延長60天。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在有沒有附加條件避免他們的限制競爭呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：要經過審查以後，如果我們同意的話，要不要附加條件，委員會會去討論，如果不同意這個結合案，就沒有附加條件的問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：會這樣提醒主委，是因為他們只要合併了就會減少競爭對手，在整個獨占市場上，很多人都會擔心市場漲價的風險提高，所以我們希望不要影響到消費者、餐飲業，還有勞動的權益，這是非常重要的，因為我們一定要避免「整碗捧走」的情形發生，所以一定要有附加條件，對所有的消費者跟外送人員，以及經營餐飲業者要如何去保障他們的權益。","特別要提到的是，餐飲業被外送平台抽成將近三成到四成，結果外送平台的外送人員得到的沒有超過10%，這整個市場競爭跟成本問題，公平會一定要非常瞭解，所以才會要求你們一定要有附加條件，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明……"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你可以保證做得到嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們審查的結果，如果禁止結合，那就是禁止、不可以結合，也就不會再有附加條件；如果同意結合……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，我們是擔心同意結合之後，所有人都會被影響權益、權益會受損，所以才要你們有附加條件。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們對於外送員、餐廳甚至消費者可能受到的影響都會一起評估。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要評估喔！因為之前統一跟維力，還有好樂迪跟錢櫃，他們在合併的時候，當時你們禁止他們的原因就是限制競爭的風險太高了，恐怕會影響整個市場消費的秩序，所以你們才會限制他們。這個情形你們也一併要考慮，不要有任何的疏漏，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們會評估整個經濟利益有沒有大於限制競爭的不利益。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席也想請問一下，你們會開公聽會嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：會，會開公聽會……"],["呂委員玉玲：會廣納各方面的意見？"],["李主任委員鎂：會、會。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，應該要廣納各方的意見。","我想問一下勞動部專員，這部分因為有關於外送人員權益的問題。"],["許專門委員根魁：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：許專員喔？"],["許專門委員根魁：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：請問一下，如果合併的話，外送人員會不會全數順利留到這個轉換的平臺？"],["許專門委員根魁：跟委員回答……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們會保障這個權益嗎？"],["許專門委員根魁：這部分的話，因為他們的登錄……"],["呂委員玉玲：包括他們的計費方式，他們會全數轉換到另外一個平臺嗎？他們的收入才不會減少……"],["許專門委員根魁：他們會不會全數過去，其實牽涉到他們目前的登錄方式，他們有的同時在兩家……"],["呂委員玉玲：這就是外送人員的權益，因為在我們桃園，勞資糾紛就有39件，包括他們收入減少跟他們的權益……因為他們是屬於接單的，沒有辦法保障工作的持久性，所以你們勞動部一定要注意，跟公平會一起共同關心這個問題，一定要有一個合作的機制，是不是？"],["許專門委員根魁：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好不好？"],["許專門委員根魁：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我想請勞動部跟公平會一定要確保外送人員的權益，讓外送人員都能夠穩定他們的工作，不會再有更多、更多的勞資糾紛，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：這部分我們也會跟勞動部來交換意見。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為這兩個外送平台如果真的合併了，整個市場的獨占情形就會發生，所以我們希望公平會在審理中一定要從嚴，而且要廣納我們社會的意見，如果說輕易地讓他們合併成真的話，後續限制競爭的情形一定也都會發生，希望這種事情一定要儘量去避免，不要讓消費者跟所有餐飲業的權益受到影響，請勞動部跟公平會對外送人員的工作權益都要好好的來保障，才能夠穩定整個市場的發展，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你在這邊可以做一個保證嗎？我看到你們的態度好像已經有接受他們要合併了？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為目前還在蒐集資料，我們其實還沒有決定做什麼樣的決議，將來在評估的時候，剛才委員提到這些，包括餐廳、外送員、消費者等等，以及最重要對整個市場競爭秩序的影響，我們都會一起考量。"],["呂委員玉玲：希望主委對於你們職掌的責任能積極地發揮功能，來保障大家的權益，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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10:05:42","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":660,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T10:05:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:54:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（9時54分）謝謝主席，請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。何部長，今天算是你第一次到委員會來備詢，當然很多委員針對勞動部的一些業務，對你有很大的一個期許，尤其是年改的議題，還有缺工的議題。其實勞動部所有的業務都跟所有勞工息息相關，而且你們的一舉一動、所有的政策，其實所有勞工都看在眼裡啦！","所以我今天先就教何部長，有關缺工的議題。現在我們整個社會高齡化、少子化，這個問題真的是還蠻嚴重的，勞動部在幾年前就有針對缺工的議題，提出一個留才久用的方案，實施了幾年之後，我看到全臺灣的移工七十多萬人，企業或者是看護工有申請留才久用方案的，目前是兩萬多人。從這兩萬多人，其實我又看到一個問題，就是留才久用產業工差不多52萬，有申請是1.6萬；家庭看護工24萬，申請是1.7萬。你就發現一個問題，就是我們來自基層很多的中小企業一直在講缺工，有很多傳統產業原本的外籍移工，他的技術非常純熟之後，雇主希望他能夠繼續留下來，才會有移工留才久用這個方案嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我看到這個議題，這個問題很嚴重，產業移工總共52萬人，只有申請1.6萬；家庭看護工24萬申請1.7萬，我覺得產業移工申請留才久用應該會更多人才對啊，為什麼反而比家庭看護工還少？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我覺得有可能是家庭看護工是一對一嘛，然後他的替代性比較少，其實他會留下來是大家都覺得他像家人了，所以會有更多的家庭看護工希望留下來，他本身希望留下來變臺灣人，然後他的家庭也希望能夠把他留下來繼續照顧，這應該是比較基本的因素啦！第二個，您講的確實是一個問題，中小企業在工業區裡面到底知不知道這個資訊？有很多委員也在跟我反映這個問題，就是我們很多工業區的中小企業廠商，根本不知道有移工留才久用這個措施……"],["黃委員秀芳：這個實施幾年啦？"],["何部長佩珊：其實也才前年到現在，才兩年而已。"],["黃委員秀芳：兩年嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我覺得宣傳不夠啦，要擴大到各工業區去宣傳，甚至下到我們委員各選區基層的，尤其是中小企業這個層次去宣傳。"],["黃委員秀芳：我記得你們剛要開始推動移工留才久用的方案，當時我有跟許部長講，要到基層，不論是工會或者工業區，甚至一般……可能你們自己本身也要有做這樣的一個宣傳、廣告……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：讓更多的中小企業，或者是讓雇主知道有這樣的一個方案。因為很多人在反映缺工，或者在反映移工技術很純熟，我們希望把他留下來，避免他離開之後又到另外其他國家，或者是回到他自己的母國，又自己開一間公司來跟原本臺灣的這家公司競爭。所以我是覺得如果有這樣的一個方案，但產業移工申請的人數反而是比家庭移工還少，我覺得這應該是有一些問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們後續要怎麼去處理？"],["何部長佩珊：現在已經在各地要成立服務中心，我們請署長來講一下。"],["黃委員秀芳：或者是你們申請的流程是非常繁瑣、非常不容易，所以變成雇主也不願意去申請？"],["蔡署長孟良：我跟委員報告，現在移工留才久用在產業這個部分，我們現在加強推動從幾個面向，第一個，就是剛剛委員提到我們直接深入到工業區，跟相關地方的一些產業園區，譬如現在跟廠協會在合作，我們加強整個在地的部分。第二個，整個流程跟窗口，我們現在已經成立了移工留才久用中心的單一窗口，也就是一站式服務啦！所有的需求只要透過我們這個中心，我們就全程來協助，這個目前看起來效果已經慢慢出來，我們會持續來推動，整個程序、流程跟表件的簡化，我們現在都在持續檢討當中，我們跟相關部會在未來會朝向這個部分，持續來推動。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們有預計要達到什麼樣的目標嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實本來我們在移工留才久用，大概就是說以8年來看，包含資深移工跟比較年輕的移工，我們希望能夠達到14萬個留才，目前其實我們都超標了，我們大概1年都將近2萬個，也就是我們預期未來絕對可以達到這個目標，之後我們會加強努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實這個政策是因為之前有很多中小企業一直在反映，所以才會有移工留才久用這樣的一個方案，那既然有這樣的方案，我也希望你們針對這些中小企業應該要多加宣傳，讓這些技術純熟的移工能夠真正的留在臺灣，因為這個對中小企業來講確實是有一些幫助的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，剛剛有很多的委員也很關心，就是我們婦女就業或者是中高齡就業的這個議題，當然，我們認為勞動部針對這一部分確實還有需要再加強，就是說婦女的勞參率偏低，尤其是在結婚、生小孩之後的勞參率是偏低的，也許在孩子進到小學之後或者是在他中高齡之後，家庭的重擔比較少了，可以又回歸到職場上，所以我也希望勞動部針對這一部分確實還要再加強。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為我有看了一些數據，我確實是不滿意，那在何部長上來之後，我相信很多人對你寄予厚望，總是希望新的部長上來有一些新的作為，是不是可以再請部長針對我剛剛講的婦女就業還有中高齡的這一部分說明你未來要怎麼加強？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我用我自身的經歷為例，我覺得到我這個年紀，如果我有生小孩、之前有在家庭的話，現在大概也應該要回歸。事實上，我覺得婦女大概在中年以後是照顧的責任加重，因為家庭的照顧大概都會落在婦女的身上，所以我們要想辦法幫女性從這個照顧責任的束縛中能夠稍微讓他解脫，那要怎麼做呢？有一個就是我想要推動育嬰留停跟照顧留停，關於照顧留停，包括委員關心的照顧假這些事情，我們大家未來會再研議。另外就是未來移工是不是可以進入長照體系來做一個補充式的服務，然後幫助婦女讓他們的照顧責任能夠做一點緩解。"],["黃委員秀芳：今天我確實有很多問題想要問，我們希望部長可以針對缺工的這個議題，因為各產業都有缺工的聲音，你聽到各產業有缺工，那你們要怎麼去解決？當然，有很多人跟我反映傳統產業缺工，像旅宿業、餐飲業缺工，聽到好像到處都在缺工，所以要怎麼樣去解決這個議題？我覺得其實這個也不是勞動部自己就可以去解決，應該也要跨部會，很多年輕人也許可以從國中甚至高中就有建教合作的方式，這個缺工問題也許可以這樣子慢慢來解決，我覺得這個應該也是要跨部會去合作。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我舉個例子，像旅宿業缺工喊得很大聲，那其實我們必須要跟交通部一起解決，可是我也要在這裡強調，缺工不能等於低薪，所以我覺得對缺工要先從提升本土勞參率、勞動就業開始，然後是在不足的情況下我們才去引進移工，那麼在引進移工的時候，我們也要同時重視薪水到底是多少，這個東西是我們跟交通部目前在討論的重點，我們希望能夠把薪水提高一些，不要一直用低薪，因為如果是低薪的話，無論是本土或是移工，其實都很難請到人。"],["黃委員秀芳：在禮拜一舉行國宴的時候，我們在餐廳裡面就看到很多大學餐飲科的學生，那他有這個機會來服務，其實他也覺得是一個很難得的經驗，其實我也看到很多高職學生，他要升到大學，有的人是用這種產學合作的方式，這方面其實可以增加就業機會，然後又可以減少缺工的問題，所以我希望勞動部應該要主動然後跨部會的來協調，讓更多國人能夠投入這個就業職場，不要讓大家覺得一定要引進移工，引進移工不一定能解決問題，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的發言。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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所有的需求只要透過我們這個中心 我們就全程來協助 那這個目前看起來效果已經慢慢出來 那我們會持續來推動 那整個程序跟流程跟表現的簡化 我們現在都在持續在檢討當中 我們跟相關部位我們未來會照樣這個部分 所以你們有預計就是說要達到什麼樣的目標嗎"},{"start":331.369,"end":354.864,"text":"其實本來我們在移工流財久用大概就是說以8年來看我們包含資深移工跟就是這個比較年輕移工我們希望能夠達到14萬個流財那目前其實我們都超標了我們大概以目前一年都將近2萬個也就我們預期大概未來我們絕對可以達到我們原來的這個目標值我們會加強來努力其實這個政策是因為"},{"start":356.465,"end":375.337,"text":"之前很多的中小企業一直在反應所以才會有這個移工留才久用這樣的一個方案那既然有這樣的一個方案我也希望你們針對這些中小企業應該要多加的去宣傳讓這些技術純熟的移工真正的能夠留在臺灣因為確實這個對中小企業來講是有一些幫助的"},{"start":380.02,"end":406.711,"text":"另外剛剛有很多的委員也很關心就是比如說我們這個婦女就業或者是中高齡就業的這個議題當然我們希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分確實還有需要再加強就是說婦女她的這個勞參率是偏低的尤其是結婚之後生小孩之後勞參率是偏低的那怎麼樣讓她"},{"start":407.871,"end":407.891,"text":"﹝解釋﹞"},{"start":425.651,"end":446.746,"text":"確實真的還要再加強因為我覺得看了這個一些數據確實是不滿意那在何部長上來之後我相信很多人對你寄予厚望總是新的部長上來有一些新的作為那是不是可以再請部長針對我剛剛講的這個婦女這個就業還有中高齡的這一部分你未來要怎麼加強"},{"start":448.607,"end":464.847,"text":"我用我自身的經歷我覺得到我這個年紀大概差不多就是如果我有生小孩的話現在大概也是應該要之前有在家庭的話大概應該要回歸那事實上因為我覺得婦女大概在中年以後"},{"start":465.387,"end":466.929,"text":"我一個就是說我想要推動這個育嬰留庭跟照顧留庭"},{"start":484.646,"end":501.781,"text":"我們照顧留庭包括大家委員關切的照顧假這些事情我們大家未來再研議另外就是說未來移工是不是可以進入長照體系來做一個補充式的服務然後幫助婦女能夠把更多的從照顧責任能夠把它做一點緩解這樣子"},{"start":508.326,"end":523.332,"text":"今天確實有很多問題想要問我們希望說部長可以針對缺工的這個議題各產業都有這個缺工的聲音所以你要怎麼樣再去聽到各產業缺工那你們要怎麼去解決"},{"start":524.392,"end":542.164,"text":"當然就是說很多人在跟我反映這個傳統產業缺工旅宿業餐飲業缺工好像聽到好像到處都在缺工所以怎麼樣去解決這個議題那我覺得說其實這個也不是勞動部一個人可以去解決應該也要去跨部會很多"},{"start":545.346,"end":560.596,"text":"有的我們講說很多這個年輕人也許可以從國中甚至高中可以就有建教合作的方式這個缺工也許可以這樣子慢慢來解決我覺得這個應該也是要一個跨部會的去合作"},{"start":562.137,"end":589.334,"text":"我舉個例,像旅宿業缺工喊得很大聲啦那其實是跟交通部我們必須一起解決可是我也要在這裡強調缺工不能等於低薪啦所以我覺得就是說你這個缺工要先從提升本土勞參率勞動就業開始然後是在不足的情況下我們才去引進移工那麼引進移工的時候我們也要同時重視你的薪水到底是多少"},{"start":590.534,"end":614.876,"text":"對,因為這個東西是我們跟交通部現在目前在討論的重點我們希望他能夠把薪水能夠提高一些啦不要一直用低薪,因為你去低薪的話你無論是本土或是移工其實都很難請啦其實前禮拜一的時候國宴那我們在那個餐廳裡面我們就看到很多是這個大學餐飲科的學生"},{"start":616.297,"end":640.366,"text":"那他有這個機會來服務其實他也覺得說是很難得的一個經驗那其實我也看到很多比如說高職學生他要升到大學他有的是用這種產學合作的方式那這方面其實也可以減少一些這個增加就業機會然後又可以減少這個缺工的這個問題啦所以我希望說勞動部應該也要主動然後跨部會的來協調"},{"start":643.707,"end":643.847,"text":"謝謝我們的黃委員發言"}]}},{"id":"152878","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152878","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4533c5ea7b1a0af7615bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e836d0563d7b3527adf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:44:04 - 09:57:56","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":832,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:57:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:44:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時44分）謝謝召委，有請立法院周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：以及請法務部。"],["主席：請法務部徐次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：以及司法院副廳長。"],["主席：請司法院副廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你剛才在說國會警察權的部分，我希望你能夠再講清楚，如果我沒有誤解的話，我覺得你講的是完全錯的，國會警察權規定在哪一個法律？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個長期在立法院是有兩方面在爭辯啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：不要說爭辯，就你們的認知啦！你認為國會警察權，國會議長可以行使他的警察權，其法律依據是什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：它是家宅權的觀念啊！所以它的意思是，在議場處理的時候，警察權的一個動用，所謂外界所說的警察權動用是會場有影響委員的行使職權……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！我的意思是……"],["周秘書長萬來：其實那個是警察的一個動用，他一定要維護院區的秩序嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是的，但我在跟你講的是總要有一個依據嘛！不是周萬來今天幹了秘書長，或者是韓國瑜幹了院長，那他就說沒有、沒有、沒有，立法院就是我最大，我是院長或秘書長，我最大，所以我不用跟你們講理由，我為了維護秩序。我在跟你講的是哪一部法律給他這樣的授權？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個本來就是院區的議場……"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有本來啦！要行使權力、擁有權力，總要有法律的授權嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：若沒錯，你要跟我說哪一條、哪一部法律啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：整個立法院……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我不要整個，是哪一部法律？"],["周秘書長萬來：法是沒有這樣的規定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：不過要補充一下……"],["莊委員瑞雄：法就是沒有這樣的規定。"],["周秘書長萬來：這個是警察權的概念。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是概念就對了。"],["周秘書長萬來：警察的勤務裡面是有規定整個範圍。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在不講警察勤務，我現在講院長的權力，我在講國會警察權，國會警察權不會是警察的權力，警察是受命，警察只是受命來，我是在講說當他發動國會警察權的時候，你現在一直在跟我說他是為了要維護秩序，我也知道要維護秩序，我是在跟你說，為了維護秩序為什麼是院長下令啦！他的權力來自於哪裡啦？慢慢地講，沒關係，你們不能胡說八道一通啊！講得有道理就算，但不能亂講。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為本來今天不是探討警察權……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是一個common sense。"],["周秘書長萬來：不是在警察權探討的範圍啦！因為這個長期裡面有一個概念在，所謂警察權的動用……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們依據一個……"],["周秘書長萬來：莊委員，我可以講嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：警察權的動用在外界是指影響到委員的職權行使，一定是會場裡面動用警察權的概念。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：整個立法院……"],["莊委員瑞雄：外界，什麼叫做外界？"],["周秘書長萬來：為什麼我以前為了警察權動用跟法制局一直長期有不同的概念在，所以法制局的概念認為家宅權，主席就是為了整個立法院，他會以家宅權的觀念可以動用警察權，我個人不認為……"],["莊委員瑞雄：法律規定在什麼地方？"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人不認為，所以這個也在探討的過程當中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要跟你說的是，秘書長，警察權其實國會議長沒有明文受到法律的授權，他只是在講說國會議長要行政中立，維護整個議事的進行，在立法院組織法裡面有啦！立法院警察勤務的規則，他當然跟你講說國會議長叫你來，連鍾佳濱召委，現在他都可以召喚立法院的駐警啊！如果外面有人抗爭，為維持委員會的議事進行，他也可以啊！國會警察權談的這個不是本席在講或這幾天用到的都不是這一些啦！立法委員跟立法委員之間，國會自主如何來運作，這一塊國會自己處理，外面哪怕是行政院或者是警政署長跟你周萬來多好、跟韓國瑜多好，他們都不能進來，他們是不能進來的喔！哪有什麼警察接受國會議長的指揮，哪一條？也沒有啊！所謂的警察權是維持秩序，維持秩序到底要有哪些種方式，那是剛好國會有駐警，就像你講的，那個只是一個概念。一個法制國家為什麼沒有辦法把它做明文，你知道嗎？就是我們怕被攻擊，任何人執政、任何人在立法院多數都不敢把那個法律明文去授權，如果立法院組織法裡面就把它規定為國會議長可以召喚警察來維持國會的秩序，那我就跟你說，法律有給這樣的授權，都沒話講啦！但我們就沒有這樣的法律啊！所以我才問你說法律的授權呢？趕快給秘書長，沒關係，這個是一個普通的概念嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，這樣的一個概念，委員，我不想再論辯這個概念，但因為莊委員一直要提啦！所謂的警察權的動用，我們外界所理解的是在會場裡面，因為你干預到委員的職權行使，這叫動用警察權的概念。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：所以這個我們在討論、在論辯，為什麼從梁肅戎委員一開始……我沒有反對這個概念，這跟法制局局長的概念完全不一樣，所以我才……"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，你不用這麼緊張。"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，你再讓我講一下。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我不是在跟你說不能動用警察權，我現在講的是動用了警察權會產生爭議，那些爭議要怎麼來處理，這個爭議就是要溯源誰賦予你這樣的一個權限，立法院組織法有沒有授權給院長，有沒有授權給秘書長？我要跟你講的是沒有，所以你才跟我講說：唉唷！那可能是一個家宅權的概念，那是外界的觀念，我是在跟你正本清源，牽扯到委員跟委員之間，秘書長，這人喔，不用互相欺騙啦，在一個位子都不會很久啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：我可以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我會讓你講，公平解釋就好，警察權講的其實都是在談非立法委員去干涉到了整個立法院，比如說群眾或者不相干的人，干涉到立法院整個議事的運作，這個時候才有警察權，發動議事抗爭的時候，我還沒看到有一個終局定論。每一個人都知道，立法院應該更有秩序，民主政治大家更應該有素質，這個大家都知道，臺灣老百姓都知道，但是發動議事抗爭的時候，你要動用警察權，那我就追根究柢來問你了，你的權力來源來自於哪裡？你就說沒有嘛，你只說概念而已，你就說因為過去怎麼樣，實在是……你不覺得那個立法院警察的勤務執行規則……那個哪是法律，那不是法律耶！"],["周秘書長萬來：我可以補充嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以。"],["周秘書長萬來：就是因為這一個警察勤務規則並不代表我們所說的警察權的動用，所以我所說的動用警察權的概念，是在會場裡面動用的警察權，這個是涉及對於委員職權行使的干預，所以我們警察權的動用是這一個概念，在整個議場裡面，立法院當然一定有……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我在跟你講的是，誰可以動用的法律授權來自於哪裡嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為沒有法源，所以這個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我說明一下，因為沒有法源，所以從劉松藩院長一直到現在，包括韓院長在內，都不會動用警察權。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：這個警察權的概念是這樣來的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我今天只是要跟你講兩個字而已，不是要跟你吵架啦！第一個，就是沒有法律的授權啦，沒有一條法令規定授權給院長、國會議長警察權，所以你就要很迂迴地從過去怎麼樣、怎麼樣說起，然後說那個是一個慣例怎麼樣、怎麼樣，甚至你說那個只是一個觀念，整個立法院的這一些警察執行勤務，我們只是弄一個規則，那個規則是在規範這些警察，那不是國會議長有的權限，我是在跟你講這個，所以你解釋完以後，這個其實都有很大的紛爭。"],["周秘書長萬來：我補充一下，可以嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以啊，把它講完整。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我們兩者之間對於警察權的這個概念是不一樣的，不一樣才會產生我們這邊的論辯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不、不、不，本來就會不一樣。"],["周秘書長萬來：為什麼當時在會場裡面，警察權不能動用的理念，就是因為這個警察勤務規則沒有賦予院長在會場裡面可以動用警察權作議事的處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：至於其他的警察勤務，當然院長有這個權力指派外面的這些警察。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛，我現在是跟你講議場嘛，不是議場的，我跟你講這個幹什麼？站在你後面的都是法學專家，他們聽了也想笑啊，對不對？國會自主，在自主裡面，你說警察權的動用，當然是在議場裡面，那議場裡面警察怎麼會去介入呢？每一個政黨有它議事策略的一個攻防啊，所以我們不要牽扯太遠！"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯，議場、會場的概念不一樣啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我要跟你講的就是這個都要小心啦，就像你講的，真的沒有法律授權，但是為了整個國會自主的運作，要排除其他的、維護整個秩序，那個都是在講外部去干擾到這個議場裡面的議事運作，其他其實都叫做國會自律，最後不守規矩的，不就要懲戒，不是這樣說嗎？沒有讓你漏氣啦！是你說的不清楚，我要追問得比較清楚一點，法制上確實就是沒有授予在議場裡面……"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝指導，不過我的想法……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不敢指導，對年紀比我大一點的，我沒有客氣一點不行。佳濱抱歉，我後面再問兩句話就好，我也要針對議題講一下。秘書長請回。"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝你。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個要請金管會、法務部，法務部有上來了嘛？我現在這樣講啦，今天召委安排這個會，我相信其實社會大眾虛擬交易的數量越來越多，我們擔心的就是這些黑錢洗到最後變白錢，我們要溯源嘛。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我很擔心的是，我聽完以後，你們跟金管會以及我們這個虛擬交易所的合作，幾乎說是零。我們今天要審這部法律，你這樣叫召委要怎麼審下去？我如果一問下去，我們跟外部的合作，這個部分我們如何去做一個加強？金管會也是一樣，金管會不能每次都發一些新聞、行政指導以後，叫人家不要受騙就好，推動業界自己去自律啊，這些人都不自律，你只會叫人家自律。"],["徐次長錫祥：現在……"],["莊委員瑞雄：簡單答復就好……"],["徐次長錫祥：好，臺高檢已經跟四大虛擬貨幣交易所建立平臺，也預計再繼續跟8家接洽，所以我們會跟業者充分地合作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我很擔心，你說只是跟我們臺灣內部合作，還是不夠，光這個交易平臺就那麼多，你看，虛假的那麼多，我們現在來看的話，金管會裡面我每一次看到的幾乎就是投資人對自己投資的後果要自行負責，然後對於整個幣安以外的境外投資平臺，要用什麼樣的合作模式。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們……"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席很擔心的就是漏洞。"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們也有把相關的資料提供給國外交易所，請他們來回復。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個部分我們真的是有做得不夠的地方，在我們今天修法之前，我們還沒有看到你們有多大的相關配套有做起來，還有你們運行到現在的成效是怎麼樣，因為金額還是那麼大，這個部分真的要加強，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：OK。"],["主席（陳委員俊宇）：謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢。","接下來我們邀請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 4案；二、處理113年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案；三、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議\n「洗錢防制法修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.177843750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.384093750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.94346875,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.75346875,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.60096875,"end":25.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.59221875,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.90846875,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.13596875,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.44346875,"end":35.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.924093750000004,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.16846875,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.52221875,"end":42.893468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.00721875,"end":50.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.51284375,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.94159375,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.422218750000006,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.02346875,"end":76.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.20471875000001,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.22159375000001,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.23284375,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.33409375000001,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.36784375,"end":112.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.97534375000001,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.34659375000001,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.33784375,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.68784375000001,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.95346875000001,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.42534375000001,"end":123.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.12971875000001,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.44096875,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.11971875,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.34596875,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.01034375,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.70221875000001,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.90471875,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.71846875,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.47784375,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.62909375,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.29909375,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.48034375,"end":182.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.41596875000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.61846875,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.82721875000001,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.89846875,"end":221.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.71034375000002,"end":216.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.70159375,"end":218.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.90346875,"end":223.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.40534375000001,"end":224.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.73409375000003,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.32034375,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.50346875000002,"end":259.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.09159375,"end":270.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.63846875,"end":271.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.61721875,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.97971875,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.81471875,"end":277.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.01284375,"end":278.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.17721875,"end":280.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.01659375,"end":281.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.47221875,"end":282.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.34534375000004,"end":284.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.70784375,"end":286.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.55534375,"end":293.80784375},{"speaker":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剛好你國會有駐警就像你講的那個只是一個概念一個法治國家為什麼沒有辦法把它做明文你知道嗎我們怕被攻擊啦任何人執政任何人在立法院多數都不敢把那個法律明文去授權"},{"start":322.392,"end":332.764,"text":"如果立法院組織法裡面你就把它規定了國會議長他可以召喚警察來維持國會的秩序那我就跟你說法律有給你這樣授權都沒話講了我們就沒有這樣的法律啊所以我在問你說法律的授權啊趕快給秘書長沒關係這個是一個普通的概念嘛"},{"start":347.317,"end":357.971,"text":"委員 我不想再論辯這個概念。因為中文一直要提啦。所謂的警察權的動用是我們外界所理的動用警察權是在樂會場裡面為了"},{"start":361.115,"end":386.39,"text":"你干預到委員的職權行使這叫動用警察權的概念所以這個我們在論辯為什麼從梁世榮委員一起開始我們一直反對這個概念所以這跟法治局的羅局長完全概念的這一個不一樣所以我才你不用這麼緊張嘛我不是在跟你講不能動用警察權"},{"start":387.31,"end":388.311,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":410.009,"end":410.829,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":435.069,"end":449.185,"text":"非立法委員去干涉到的整個立法院,比如說群眾或不相干的人,干涉到立法院的整個議事的一個運作,這個時候才有警察權。發動議事抗爭的時候,"},{"start":450.646,"end":468.436,"text":"我還沒看到有一個終局定論每一個人都知道啊立法院應該更有秩序啊民主政治大家更應該有素質啊這個大家都知道台灣老百姓都知道但是發動議事抗爭的時候你要動用警察權我就追根究柢來問你了"},{"start":469.697,"end":470.377,"text":"那你的權利來源來自於哪裡?"},{"start":470.377,"end":471.358,"text":"你的權利來源來自於哪裡?"},{"start":471.358,"end":478.542,"text":"你就說沒有嘛,你就說概念而已啊。 你就說沒有嘛,你就說概念而已啊。 你就說概念而已啊。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你就說因為過去就這樣,實在是硬的。 你不覺得因為你那個立法院的那個警務,警察的一個情務執行規則裡面,那個哪是法律?"},{"start":478.542,"end":482.464,"text":"那不是法律欸。 你不覺得因為你那個立法院的那個警務,警察的一個情務執行規則裡面,那個哪是法律?"},{"start":482.464,"end":482.864,"text":"那不是法律欸。"},{"start":486.803,"end":513.082,"text":"可以啊,就是因為這一個警察請勿規則並不代表我們所說的警察權的動用所說的動用警察權的概念是在會場裡面的這一個動用警察權所以在這個涉及到對委員的實情的行使的一個干預所以我們警察權的動用是"},{"start":513.402,"end":513.762,"text":"所以我今天要跟你講的"},{"start":536.341,"end":539.043,"text":"我今天要跟你說兩句而已,不是要跟你吵架啦。就是說你那個法律的授權第一個沒有啦。"},{"start":545.356,"end":570.623,"text":"沒有一條法令規定你院長國會議長授權給你說你有這個警察權所以我們就你就很迂迴的從過去怎麼樣怎麼樣然後說那個是一個慣例啊怎麼樣甚至你說那個只是一個觀念立法那個整個立法院的這一些警察知情勤務我們只弄一個規則那規則是在規範這些警察那不是你國會議長許有的權限"},{"start":572.944,"end":573.444,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":595.339,"end":616.773,"text":"警察權不能動用的理念就是因為這個警察勤務規則是沒有呼籲為院長在會場的意思的這個處理可以動用警察權到這一個會場裡面是嗎那其他的警察因為當然院長有這個權害害的這一些外面的警察我現在跟你講異常嘛不是異常的我跟你講這個幹什麼站在你後面的都是法學專家啊他們聽起來也愛笑啊"},{"start":625.596,"end":645.033,"text":"對嗎?你國會自主 你的自主裏面 你說要歸你的警察權的一個動用當然是在議場裏面啊 那議場裏面警察怎麼可以去介入呢每一個政黨有他的預示策略的一個攻防啊 所以我們不要擔心啦議場會場概念不一樣啦 所以我要跟你講的就是說 這個都要小心啦"},{"start":646.124,"end":662.356,"text":"就像你講的真的沒有法律授權啦但是呢又為了要等個國會自治國會自主的運作要排除其他的那個整個秩序維護整個秩序那個都是在講外部去干擾到這個議場裡面的意識運作啦其他其實齁都叫做國會自律啦阿搞不好若不修復議不可以懲戒不然這樣講"},{"start":674.045,"end":678,"text":"則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則"},{"start":680.725,"end":681.945,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":708.696,"end":734.459,"text":"這個其實大家社會大眾去講到的整個那個整個虛擬的一個教育的數量越來越多啦我們就擔心的就是這些黑錢洗到最後變白錢我們要溯源嗎我很擔心的就是說你們我聽完以後啊跟金管會以及我們這個虛擬那個這個交易所的一個合作幾乎是有沒有說是零嗎"},{"start":735.93,"end":755.394,"text":"我們今天要審一部法律理案的叫座會要怎麼審呢?我如果一個人幫忙之後,我們跟外部的合作,那這個部分我們如何去做一個加強?儘管會是一樣啊,儘管你不能給大家都發一些行情文啊,行政指導以後,叫人家不要受騙就好啊,推動業界去自律啊,這些人就不自律了,你給人家要自律?"},{"start":757.174,"end":773.611,"text":"現在台高姐已經跟四大虛擬貨幣交易所已經有建立平台那也預計有再繼續跟八家接洽所以我們是要跟業者要充分的合作這個我很擔心你說只到我們內部我們台灣還是不夠啦"},{"start":778.915,"end":782.039,"text":"這個交易平台就那麼多了。你看,虛假的也那麼多了。我們現在來看的話,我們經管會裡面幾乎我每一次看到的就是投資人對你的投資的後果要自己去負責,然後對於整個幣安以外的境外的投資的一個平台。"},{"start":796.318,"end":796.458,"text":"五﹗五﹗五﹗"},{"start":816.081,"end":817.102,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"}]}},{"id":"152877","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152877","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4536a6995608796e21dbde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e8351d9cde2851d34635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:31:31 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09:43:55","影片長度":"00:12:24","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":744,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:43:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:31:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（9時31分）主席，我請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長辛苦，早安！我請教你，在走廊上都站了一些警察，二、三樓及樓下都有，我看委員、官員進來時，有時候他們都會客氣地請安、問好，如果主席要在這裡開會、主持會議，外面有人阻擋，警察維護主席讓他可以進入會議廳來使會議順利進行，這樣算動用警察權嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，這個大概要這樣說明，以院會來說，第二條規定是會場，會場才有動用警察權的概念，一個議場裡面有議場的管理，是這樣的一個概念。"],["謝委員龍介：所以主席如果要進來開會，警察維護他，讓他安全進入議事廳，這樣不算動用警察權？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，在我的概念上是沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：在立法院院會裡維護院長進入議場，因為我沒有看到警察進來議場裡面，這樣維護院長進入議場，這樣算不算動用警察權？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個外界可能有點誤會啦！那是會場，我們在警察權的動用，就是因為警察權動用是不能影響到委員行使職權，在職權行使法裡面的概念是這樣的情形。"],["謝委員龍介：感謝你，因為就是有人誤解，說韓院長動用警察權，你這樣解釋就很清楚。","第二，有人說為什麼要舉手來進行表決？本席在現場有看到，但我沒有錄影，結果有其他的同仁錄影，就看到有民進黨的委員把表決卡抽掉，這樣會影響到表決的進行嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然會啦！這個我來便在會裡面說明，不過這個會影響到表決的處理。"],["謝委員龍介：譬如說再次開會時，我去把民進黨委員桌上的那張表決卡抽掉，人跑出來，這樣他就沒辦法表決了，我如果抽5張，他們就少5個可以去按表決器，這樣就會造成糾紛，不是嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這會造成這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：好，感謝你。主席，我現在請法務部跟金管會。"],["主席：請法務部、金管會。"],["謝委員龍介：次長，請教你，這次修法的目的，其實在洗錢的過程很多是要防制詐騙。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。是！"],["謝委員龍介：過去所抓到洗錢的案件裡，你知道有多少是透過世界賭場洗錢的？比例是占多少？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有這方面的資料。"],["謝委員龍介：金管會也沒有嗎？"],["黃組長錫和：我們也沒有這方面資料。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣你們修法的過程中，考慮的層面就比較少了，我們看全世界這麼多賭場裡面，包括地下的賭場，很多洗錢行為就是這樣來的。次長，你們都應該有耳聞才對，為什麼不做一份統計？本席認為要做一份統計啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：有所謂的犯罪黑數，可能在民間有很多朋友提供你資訊，但我們是以查到來作為……"],["謝委員龍介：對啊，所以我問你過去查到的洗錢案件裡面，在賭場查到的比例占多少percent？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們只有統計詐欺的數額，沒有對他的手法做分析。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣沒辦法打到要害啦！我跟你說所有的詐騙，本席接受到很多人陳情，你知道嗎？我們有個詐騙專線叫165，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是！"],["謝委員龍介：當錢匯完之後，單我個人接到的就有好幾個個案耶！錢匯完之後，感覺可能被騙了，打去165說我現在匯去這個帳戶，拜託把帳戶凍結起來，165跟他說：「你要先去報警，等報警之後，我才能把它凍結。」次長，是這樣嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個部分作業的手續是內政部主政。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，是不是這樣啦？什麼人主政，這不是權責的問題啦！我是要問事情是不是這樣嘛？現在沒有一個受騙的人打去165就可以凍結帳號，必須要先去完成報案，在報案之後由警方通知，才會把這個帳號凍結，我說的意思你聽得懂嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道，這是明確性的問題啦！"],["謝委員龍介：所以我在說修法的過程，包括金管會，依據你們過去的統計，在幾十萬的案件裡面，包括警示帳戶一年一年一直增加，表示你們有在注意啦！現在已經到達近11、12萬戶了，如果是這樣的話，過去抓到詐騙匯款的金額都是多少錢以上，還是以下？最高的金額是一次匯多少錢？是不是多數都是一次匯款在兩、三百萬以下？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為到底詐騙匯款的金額是多少，其實還是牽涉到最後警調單位的調查，不過一般來說的話，如果你是……"],["謝委員龍介：我要跟你講的意思是你們都聽不到重點耶！因為很多人是錢匯完之後，匯錢是一個衝動，像跟買房子一樣，在簽約簽好之後，回家才覺得我買得對不對、有沒有買貴了，就一瞬間而已，錢匯了，他覺得受到詐騙，他會去報案；有一種是經過冷靜10分鐘、20分鐘之後，他覺得懷疑，他會開始詢問朋友覺得受到詐騙了，如果把匯款的作業，很多人說這樣會影響到金融機制，這筆錢匯了，冷凍期兩小時，我講的意思你有聽懂嗎？這筆錢匯了以後，因為對方都有在巡帳號嘛！有匯錢進來，他就叫車手去領了嘛！所以錢很快就被領走了，就算半小時後你把他擋起來也來不及了，錢已經被領走了。若是有兩小時的冷凍期，我還要顧慮到你的金融秩序，怕影響到人欠錢、商業調用耶！匯款你也要擋人家？所以我問你匯款詐騙的都是多少金額，譬如一次匯錢都差不多300萬、200萬、50萬、30萬、20萬不等，這樣你是不是可以抓一個適當金額以下的匯款去做一個兩小時左右的冷凍期啦！匯款人匯完之後，他覺得反悔還是他覺得受騙就可以快速反映，我跟你說，這樣可以減少很多詐騙的案件讓這個歹徒得手，你對這個說法有什麼建議或看法嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，金額應該多少以及冷凍期問題的部分，金額的多少我會覺得應該還是要跟檢調單位先瞭解啦！"],["謝委員龍介：這樣法務部這個意思你有瞭解嗎？你們都沒考慮這個暫存，因為我們在民間收到很多受害者的陳情，所以一直在想要怎麼樣去突破，立法院協商也有冷凍期，冷凍之後大家會比較冷靜，一小時或兩小時的時間還不會去影響到我們的金融秩序與經濟、商業的行為，這是要去共同思考的，因為詐騙確實氾濫到今天，我跟你說，做賊的狀元才啦！我看你們快要江郎才盡了，所以不管是怎麼修，我們怎麼修，他就怎麼蛻變；我們怎麼修，他就怎麼蛻變，我們腳步若跟不上他們，我跟你說，我們的人民就受害越殘忍、越悲哀，你覺得可以對這個方法來考慮嗎？可以研議嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們可以研議看看，因為凍結的時間也不能太久……"],["謝委員龍介：當然啦！我剛才有說你可能沒聽到，錢匯出去的10分鐘、20分鐘後他才會冷靜，錢還沒匯出去之前他會很緊張，就急著想要匯，等匯出去之後他就開始冷靜了，所以我跟你說，是要兩小時還是一小時，這很有效，你們研議看看，有什麼窒礙難行的地方，希望你可以提供一份說明給本席跟委員會，好不好？"],["莊局長琇媛：好，這部分是不是我們也可以跟檢調單位、法務部一起來研議？"],["謝委員龍介：可以啊！不然主席，我建議可以重新召開，大家……"],["主席：請銀行局依委員的要求，配合法務部將這樣的程序要件納入未來的修正內容，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們對於這個是不是另案報告？"],["主席：另案報告？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["主席：好啦、好啦！另案報告。","謝謝謝委員，也謝謝次長、局長。","接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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老闆我請教你我們這朝龍齁都有騎一些警察啦齁"},{"start":33.803,"end":49.615,"text":"二、三、六、六、七都有那麼我看委員、國務院、立法會有人說他們都會站在清安門口阿卡蘇在這裡如果是主席要來開會、要來主持會議阿在外面有人會阻擋阿我們這警察這樣委託讓他進入這個會議廳輸我們的主席可以進入會議廳來讓會議順利進行"},{"start":62.991,"end":84.81,"text":"這樣有算你們動用檢察權嗎?沒有。這個大概要這樣說明啦。會場跟議場,以院會來說,因為議場裡面有第二條規定是會場。那會場才有動用檢察權的一個概念啦。那一個議場裡面它有議場的管理啦。是這樣的一個概念。"},{"start":85.72,"end":107.08,"text":"所以在主席若要入來開會,警察跟維護給他安全,進入這個議事廳裡面,這樣不算動用警察權?沒有,在我概念上是...如果這樣在立法院議會裡面,維護議長進入議場,我沒看到警察入來議事廳裡面嘛"},{"start":119.892,"end":137.821,"text":"此外這可能有點誤會了那是會場我們對警察的動用就是因為這一個警察人動用是不能影響到委員行使職權那職權的行使裡面的一個概念是這樣呢?好,這樣感謝你齁因為就是有人誤解說韓議長勒"},{"start":143.303,"end":161.797,"text":"動用警察款來這樣解說就很清楚。第二有人說為什麼要走手來做標革本身在現場有看的但我沒有錄影結果有其他的黨人錄影就看到有民眾黨的委員把我們的標革卡丟掉了"},{"start":169.586,"end":196.895,"text":"當然,這樣會影響到表決進行嗎?會啦,但是這個我未必在會裡面說完啦。不過這一個會影響到這一個表決的一個處理。齁,所以若是譬如說在此開會,我如果去跟民進黨的委員的特定那張表決稿我把它抽掉,我人總要照出來,這樣他就沒辦法表決了嘛。"},{"start":197.551,"end":198.892,"text":"主席我現在請法務部跟這個金管會來法務部金管會請"},{"start":218.876,"end":229.985,"text":"保證 出證請教你委員長我們這個修法的目的其實洗錢的過程中是進階是要封地詐騙是過去數年在這個洗錢裡面你知道有多少是透過世界的膠囊洗錢的比率這麼多報告員"},{"start":247.327,"end":271.932,"text":"沒有沒有沒有這方面的資料。金管會阿嗎?包委我們也沒有這方面資料。喔,這樣你們在修法的過程,這顆爐料就比較少了。你們簡單看全世界這麼多casino 裡面,包括地下的,很多洗錢就是這樣來的啊。"},{"start":273.894,"end":300.303,"text":"處長應該你們都有聽到還是有什麼沒要這要做一個統計我本身認為說要有一個統計啦我報委員有有所謂的犯罪黑數齁就是說你可能在民間有很多朋友提供你資訊但是以我們是以查到來做委員我說我問說你過去查到洗錢的這個案件裡面在交通查到的比率降幾%啦這個"},{"start":306.129,"end":322.138,"text":"我們只有統計詐欺的那個數額沒有說對他的手法來做分析這這樣沒辦法打到七成啦我來講所有的詐騙本身齁接觸到很多人認證你覺得怎麼樣就說我們詐騙有一個專項叫165嘛對不對 一集廢了啊我個人接到就久了耶"},{"start":334.861,"end":334.881,"text":"一復議．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":361.254,"end":372.378,"text":"這個部份作業的手續是內政部主政?沒有啦,我...啊是不是這樣啦?什麼人煮飯這不是看...這個人的問題啦,我想問是不是這樣嘛?現在沒有一個說受騙的人打去165他就可以動帳號啦,就是你要去完成報案報案了喔"},{"start":386.584,"end":399.552,"text":"有經法通知他才會把這個帳號凍結,我講的意思你聽得到嗎?我知道,這是明確性的問題啦。好來,所以我要說修法的規定,要報金管會來,卡蘇啦,您過去的統計。"},{"start":406.921,"end":418.21,"text":"這麼多幾十萬件案件之中．．包括警示帳號一張一張一直寫著．．表示你們有在注意．．現在已經到十幾萬 十一萬幾千 十二萬幾千了嘛．．若是這樣的話．．所有的費款．．債券過去抓到的債券．．費款的金額 都是多少錢 以上還是以下．．"},{"start":436.348,"end":437.91,"text":"相關的金價一百費多少錢呢?是不是到手都是在三兩百萬以下一齣一齣費款啦!到手!"},{"start":449.442,"end":472.298,"text":"報告委員因為這個匯款到底詐騙的金額是多少其實還是牽涉到最後警教單位的調查啦那不過一般來說的話那個金融機構如果你是我要跟你講的意思是你這樣聽下去就重點了咳嗽我們今天日因為很多人是錢花了啊花錢是一個衝動會不會買出一樣啊"},{"start":478.993,"end":481.776,"text":"簽約簽了啊,我回去還是覺得我買了對了不對有比較貴嗎?一瞬間而已。一回去,他覺得是有詐騙。"},{"start":490.002,"end":493.964,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":519.079,"end":530.862,"text":"這條錢回去之後．．對方因為什麼．．他都在選對方．．有錢進來．．他就叫車手去捏．．．所以錢很快就捏掉了．．趁這我八點鐘後你把它動起來．．還不會浮啊．．他錢已經捏掉了．．若是有兩點鐘的冷凍期．．我還要保留你的金融特殊．．"},{"start":546.678,"end":557.485,"text":"怕說影響到人們欠錢．．．太弱調用．．．阿你肥款還要人家動．．．所以我問你說．．．肥款詐騴的都是在多少金額．．譬如說一百肥錢都差不多三百萬．．兩百萬．．．五十萬．．．三十萬．．二十萬．．不定．．．這樣你是不是可以抓一個適當的金額．．．以下的肥款．．去做一個兩小時遭遇的冷凍期啦．．．"},{"start":572.742,"end":575.264,"text":"發言人發了他感覺歡悔還是他感覺受騙．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．�"},{"start":592.606,"end":620.826,"text":"報告委員那個金額應該是多少?還有這個冷凍期的問題的話。金額的多少?我會覺得應該是還是要跟檢調單位去先瞭解啦。這樣我沒有這個意思你有了解嗎?你都沒有考慮這個戰促,因為我們在民間收到很多受害者的金錢嘛。所以一直在想要怎麼去突破嘛。"},{"start":623.083,"end":634.553,"text":"立法院協商也有聆討期,聆討後大家會比較冷靜。一小時或兩小時這個時間,還不去應用到我們的金融的特殊及經濟最弱的行為。這是要去共同思考的,因為詐騙比較是氾濫到今天。"},{"start":644.261,"end":662.037,"text":"我告訴你,這才是最完善的。我看你們強強要降農財金了。所以不管是怎麼修,我們怎麼修它怎麼退變。我們怎麼修它怎麼退變。我們腳步如果對應不對,我告訴你,我們的人民的小孩越來越殘忍、越悲哀。你覺得可以對這個方法來考慮嗎?可以延期嗎?"},{"start":672.308,"end":690.556,"text":"報委員,我們可以演繹看看啦,因為時間,凍結的時間也不能太久。當然啊,所以我告訴你,我告訴你,你沒聽到嗎?一十分鐘、二十分鐘,錢被廢了處理,它才會冷靜啦。錢還沒被廢之前,它會很緊張的,就說說想被廢啦。但被廢處理之後,它就開始冷靜啦。我告訴你,是兩小時還是一小時,我告訴你,這錢有效的。"},{"start":700.339,"end":710.786,"text":"真有好辣。您願意看那樣（（阿有什麼地改燃燒的所在（（你希望你能一份索命（（來給本縣委員會好不好（（"},{"start":713.727,"end":722.756,"text":"請銀行局一一委員的要求配合法務部將這樣的程序要件納入未來的一個修正內容好不好?"},{"start":737.645,"end":742.101,"text":"我們這個是不是另案報告?另案報告?好啦好啦好啦,另案報告,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152876","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4536c6f9cc30f1e1594f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8349d2664fa287e6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：主委好。有關今天這個多層次傳銷管理法的修正，多層次傳銷管理法在103年1月29號公布施行，條文第十三條規定，多層次傳銷事業於傳銷商參加其傳銷計畫或組織時，應與傳銷商締結書面參加契約，並交付契約正本。前項之書面，不得以電子文件為之。電子簽章法比多層次傳銷管理法更早公布施行，民國90年11月14號就制定了電子簽章法，而103年制定多層次傳銷管理法，為什麼會明定不得以電子文件為之？一定有它的用意、立法的目的，你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我知道，我跟委員說明一下，因為當時的時空背景，傳銷商跟傳銷事業產生的糾紛比較多，當時的立法目的就是要白紙黑字寫清楚，所以要用書面來寫，這樣大家看會比較清楚，而且要交付正本。特別為了讓大家以後能夠對這個契約有所瞭解，所以才規定不可以用電子文件為之。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：完全正確。因為現在又要修正，我們有委員提案修正「得以電子文件為之」，因為這個多層次傳銷是透過傳銷商介紹他人參加，建立多層級的組織，介紹、再介紹、再介紹，沒有限次數嘛，所以在這樣的情形之下，第五條寫得很清楚，在這樣的情形之下，剛才主委提的沒有錯，當時受害的都是基層、最基層的，而這些最基層的通常都是很少用那個了，以現在的說法就是連LINE都很少用了，現在是不是還是這樣？所以當初103年已經是一個電子化時代了，對不對？103年了，而且電子簽章法民國90年就公布了，所以它之所以會這樣明定，就是因為剛才主委所講的。現在經過了10年，是不是就可以？我沒有說不可以，但是不是要有什麼配套？準備好了沒有？公平交易委員會能不能去保護這些最基層的人，讓他們知道？所以這個部分，以公平會今天的報告，敬表支持。","因為我剛剛講過電子簽章法90年11月14號公布施行，今年有再做修正，今年5月15號又修正，修得更開放了，簡單用詞就是更開放、更好。但是就基層而言是不是就能夠不受當時的影響，或是當時的問題會不會再重新發生？尤其是你看修正後的電子簽章法第五條第三項，「前三項文件或簽章之使用有相對人者，除相對人已同意採用電子形式外，應於採用電子形式之前，以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會」，最重要是下一句話，「並告知相對人未反對者，推定同意採用電子形式」，這個對最基層的這些傳銷人員，他是不是能夠完全掌握？他說我們加LINE，好，就加LINE，他說我現在傳給你，就傳了，你沒有回反對，甚至他就幫你按同意，幫你代按同意，也是用你的手機。所以這個部分要有配套，不然的話又是成為一個詐騙事件，都是最基層的成為被詐騙者，有沒有可能發生這種事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，雖然用電子方式為之，它還是要有一個契約，還是有一些權利義務的條款、法令規定的一些事項，因為現在我們的數位經濟發展很快，傳銷商還是可以下載的，這個契約是可以下載的。另外，您談到的配套措施，公平會對於傳銷事業會有一些業務檢查，這一部分我們將來也會特別去觀察。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為每個部會關心的不一樣，數位發展部要推動電子化的時代、AI等等，他們要去推動，不能怪他，但是不同的部會就自己所主管的業務，怎麼樣去因應、怎麼樣加強保護最基層的人員，這恐怕不只是公平會，包括別的部會也是一樣，當初之所以會發生，現在可能又會發生新的受騙情形，這部分有什麼因應的作法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：將來我們會特別注意，我們對傳銷事業做業務檢查時，對於電子契約或者是當事人之間的契約會特別觀察。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不只是這樣而已，你剛剛講的，因為之前發生那麼多，所以你們常常到地方去做說明嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這部分恐怕要更……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在宣導和業務檢查方面會注意。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要更加強，尤其是這種新的東西，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為大家習慣用書面，現在要用這個好好的宣導，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來請呂玉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我跟委員說明一下因為當時的時空背景傳銷商跟傳銷事業產生的這個糾紛比較多所以當時的立法目的就是白紙黑字寫清楚所以要用書面來寫這樣大家看這個比較清楚而且要交付正本那特別為了讓大家以後能夠對這個契約有所瞭解那所以才規定不可以用電子文件為之往前正確"},{"start":133.018,"end":161.567,"text":"那因為這個現在要修正我們有委員提案修正得以電子文件為之那因為這個多層次傳銷它是透過傳銷商介紹他人參加建立多層級的組織介紹再介紹再介紹沒有限次數嘛"},{"start":163.604,"end":190.71,"text":"所以這樣的一個情形之下這個第五條寫得很清楚在這樣的情形之下你剛才主委提的沒有錯這個當時受害的都是基層最基層的而這些最基層的通常都是很少用那個以現在的說法就是連賴都很少用"},{"start":192.303,"end":218.099,"text":"現在是不是還是這樣所以這個是當初103年已經是一個電子化時代了對不對103年了而且電子簽署法民國90年就公布了所以他之所以會這樣這樣子明定就是剛剛主委所講的那現在經過了10年是不是就可以"},{"start":219.147,"end":245.709,"text":"我沒有說不可以但是就是是不是要有什麼配套準備好了沒有這個公平交易委員會能不能去保護這些最基層的讓他們知道所以這個部分以公平會今天的報告就這個競表支持了"},{"start":248.427,"end":274.768,"text":"因為我剛講過電子前章法90年11月14號公布施行今年有在做修正今年有在做5月15號這個又修正修得更更開放啦我簡單用詞叫更開放更好但是就基層而言是不是就能夠"},{"start":277.128,"end":288.151,"text":"二、審查．一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．"},{"start":296.133,"end":322.3,"text":"前三項文件或簽章之使用．有相對人者．除相對人已同意採用電子形式外．應於採用電子形式之前．以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會．並告知相對人未反對者推定同意採用電子形式．"},{"start":325.808,"end":353.619,"text":"這個對電最基層的這些傳銷人員他是不是能夠完全掌握我們加Line加Line加Line我現在傳給你就傳了你沒有回反對甚至他就跟你按同意我幫你代案同意你是你的手機所以這個部分的這個配套"},{"start":355.711,"end":368.719,"text":"不能的話又是成為一個詐騙事件的最基層的成為被詐騙者有沒有可能發生這種事情"},{"start":369.754,"end":390.008,"text":"謝謝委員,雖然用電子方式為之,它還是要有一個契約還是有一些權利義務的條款法令的規定的一些事項那因為現在這個我們的數位經濟發展很快我們的傳銷商還是可以下載的,這個契約是可以下載的那另外您談到的配套措施在公平會我們對於我們的傳銷事業會有一些業務檢查這一部分我們將來也會特別去觀察"},{"start":394.984,"end":416.334,"text":"因為每個部會的關心的不一樣。數位發展部他要去推動這個電子化的時代AI什麼什麼他要去推動,不能怪他。但是就不同的部會就自己所主管的業務"},{"start":418.459,"end":443.965,"text":"怎樣去因應這個怎樣去加強保護最基層的最基層的人員這恐怕是每一個不是不只是公平會了包括別的部會也是一樣這個因為當初所以會發生現在可能又會發生新的新的一個受騙"},{"start":447.83,"end":464.159,"text":"關於這個有什麼樣應應的做法嗎?將來我們會特別注意我們在對傳銷事業做業務檢查的部分的時候對這個電子契約或者是就是當事人之間的契約我們會特別去"},{"start":465.767,"end":493.033,"text":"這個部分不是這樣而已啦我看之前因為發生你剛剛講的發生那麼多所以你們常常去到地方去做說明嘛是所以這個部分恐怕要更的我想在宣導方面在業務檢查方面我們更要加強尤其這種新的東西好不好因為大家習慣用書面了嘛現在用這個所以好好好地宣導好不好是的"},{"start":494.772,"end":494.973,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"152875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4539a8cc65442b825f45d1368e7b3a1940ed34e896d657c5e83f522f85420393ee15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:48:33 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09:59:08","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":635,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:59:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:48:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（9時48分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委早安。今天我們都聚焦在AI，我想人工智慧近年來越來越成熟了，但是在使用上或者是在規範上，其實還是需要有一些指引，包含法律的名詞定義、隱私的部分，還有就是一些使用倫理的部分，其實還是需要更進一步的規範。","我們知道行政院跟國科會之前都有表示，在今年年底之前會推出所謂的人工智慧法草案，但是目前為止，好像還沒有一個比較具體的共識。歐盟在今年3月也通過了所謂的人工智慧法，另外在韓國的部分，他們也有智慧資訊化基本法，在世界各國紛紛在就這個部分開始立法的時候，您覺得臺灣應該要站在什麼樣的立場？將來這個立法草案的推動進程大概是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的規劃小組現在當然也在參考歐盟已經公布的這個AI法案。臺灣過去在制定相關法案的時候，其實非常注重我們經濟的發展，現在身為一個已經比較進步的國家，我覺得也要關注保護人權的部分，所以目前的討論是我們會兩者兼具，就是對於人權、對於隱私的保護以及產業的發展，我們希望兩者可以相輔相成。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以主委的意思是我們要先有一個指引，然後再比較、統合一些意見跟共識，然後再來做立法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：那今年年底這個草案有可能會出來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們原來目標是在年底要送行政院，剛剛其他委員也有建議，所以我希望加速，能夠在10月底之前。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外，我們知道AI這個話題，各大學一些相關科系也做了很多調整，在教育部111年學年度做的217個一般大學的系所和學位學程的一個調查表當中，我們看到跟AI相關的科系就高達22個，已經超過10%了，比方說華夏科技大學在109學年度也特別增設了所謂的智慧車輛系，這是滿特別的部分。主委本身也來自教育界，之前您在受訪的時候有說希望能夠協助大學還有一些相關產業的轉型然後AI化，但是其實我們比較擔心的一個部分是，當大家一窩蜂的把它設為熱門相關科系的時候，反而會讓有一些包含人文或者是一些像商學院、文學院的相關科系變少，我舉一個例子來講，像敏實科大，因為AI這樣子的風潮，所以他們也新增了智慧車輛與能源系、人工智慧應用工程學系等等，反而讓他們原本有的一些相關人文部分的科系後來就沒了，包含商務暨觀光英語以及運動與健康促進等等這些學系，關於這個部分，在學系方面會不會因為AI的風潮，反而讓跟人文相關的一些科系的資源變得比較沒有那麼平均，這個部分其實我們有一點擔心，這個您怎麼看呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我非常同意委員的看法，其實我個人也是很關注這個議題，我希望利用臺灣科技的優勢，可以來協助傳統的，甚至食、衣、住、行、育、樂各行各業都能夠善用AI工具來協助他們轉型，而且也可以留住人才。"],["郭委員昱晴：除了要留住人才，其實這些科技還是有必要性的存在，只是在這樣子的轉型中，比方說我們剛剛看到一些像電視、網路行銷或者是商務、觀光英語或者是餐飲，類似這樣子或者是一般的文學院或商學院，它要怎麼樣跟AI結合，或者是怎麼樣來做互相結合的規劃，這個部分主委怎麼看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為這個關係到產業，所以我其實也有跟媒體提過這個事情，希望將來鼓勵我們異業可以去結合，也就是我們的科技業要善用AI這個工具，但是它的發展不要只協助國外的那些大廠，而是也要能夠跟我們傳統產業結合，讓傳統產業升級，升級以後，我們可以用更少的人做更多的事情，利用機器來協助人類，這樣子的話，我們不僅可以減少人事支出，甚至可以提高我們從業人員的薪資。然後這個產業轉型以後，它的價值提升了，這個行業人才流失的狀況就會減少。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我們比較擔心的是，因為一窩蜂的AI反而會讓他們原本的……比方說我剛剛講的那些人文科系的一些學校招不到學生，反而會停招，這個也是將來有可能會面臨的一個問題，這是真的會活生生的出現在教育界當中，這個部分我們可能也要再來做更進一步的研究。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，第三個問題我想要問的是，當然我們必須也非常肯定國科會對於女性朋友的福利，其實世界上有許多國家正在面臨性別比例比較不均的狀況，其實國科會在2023年也公布了111年度性別分析的報告，在投入科技產業的男女比例上，其實還是3比1，重點是男性朋友還是比較多一點，但是其實我們也鼓勵很多優秀的、專業的女性的人才能夠進入到不管是國科會也好，或是相關的一些科技產業也好，為了要改善，就是讓女性能夠進入到高科技產業的職場，當然也要幫助他們，比方說在育兒的部分，我們知道國科會2021年的時候在職場互助教保服務中心其實也服務了滿多在職的女性，讓他們2歲到學齡前的小朋友能夠優先入園，但是這個名額的部分是怎麼樣訂立出來的？","沒關係，您可以邀請相關人員來回答這個問題。"],["呂處長世壹：委員，跟您報告一下，國科會教保中心目前是收50個，那是依照教育部國教署所訂的一些指引，按照我們的規定，所以我們現在是50個。"],["郭委員昱晴：是因為師生比的關係是訂50個？"],["呂處長世壹：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為最多本來應該是可以到60個，對不對？"],["呂處長世壹：對，因為我們考慮到我們場地的關係，所以我們那時候一開始規劃就是50個，113年的話就按照教育部的規定，為了讓幼兒可以得到更好的教育，所以那個師生比就有調降。"],["郭委員昱晴：又再繼續調降？"],["呂處長世壹：對，往下降。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我相信需求應該會更多，因為我們知道其實在國科會，不管是資策會、工研院或者是國研院等等相關的部門，有需求的人應該會比較多，那你們沒有想要再增設這樣子的教保中心嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：跟委員說明一下，因為所有的……比如說環境的配置都有一定的規範，我們考慮到國科會只有科技大樓那一棟而已，我們有評估過，所以我們目前可能沒有多餘的空間。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以等於113年人數可能還會再下降？"],["呂處長世壹：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們收到的資料是從50個變成48個。"],["呂處長世壹：對，這個數字也是教育部國教署核定給我們的。"],["郭委員昱晴：那有沒有可能再往更多的部分來做努力？不管是在空間或其他的部分是不是可以再……"],["呂處長世壹：這個部分我們會努力再跟教育部國教署詢問一下、協助一下，看未來可不可以讓更多的人進來國科會的教保中心。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，因為是以女性員工的子女為主，要符合這樣的條件，我相信也有很多人在申請，這個需求應該還是存在的，為了要讓更多優秀的女性朋友能夠加入我們的國科會、加入這個高科技產業的職場，我想也要讓他們無後顧之憂，這個部分主委這邊是不是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同委員的看法。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，再來研擬……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會再來跟教育部協調看有沒有機會。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們來增加一些名額、增加照顧的人員，然後把師生比的部分能夠再符合條件，然後讓更多的女性朋友能夠安心的投入職場，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們必須符合法規，但是我看看有沒有這個機會、有這個空間可以做，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，主委請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.894718750000001,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.50909375,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.74534375,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.812843750000003,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.84659375,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.822218750000005,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.96721875,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.86471875000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.06284375,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.59596875000001,"end":111.97971875},{"speaker":"SP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有請主委好 有請吳主委主委早安"},{"start":18.547,"end":38.983,"text":"我想今天其實我們都聚焦在AI啦那我想人工智慧近年來其實是越來越成熟了那但是其實在使用上或者是在各規範上其實還是需要有一些指引啦包含就是他的名詞的定義啦法律的名詞定義啦那隱私的部分啦還有就是使用的一些"},{"start":39.904,"end":40.104,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":54.861,"end":82.514,"text":"但是目前為止好像還沒有有一個比較具體的一個共識我想這個歐盟在今年的3月其實他們也通過了所謂的人工的智慧法另外在韓國的部分他們也有智慧資訊化的一個基本法在世界各國其實紛紛在就這個部分來開始立法的時候您覺得台灣應該要站在什麼樣的一個立場將來有可能在這個立法的草案的推動的進程大概是怎麼樣呢?"},{"start":84.011,"end":109.708,"text":"我們的規劃小組現在當然也在參考歐盟已經公布的這個AI的法案那台灣的過去在制定相關的法案的時候其實非常注重我們經濟的發展但是現在身為一個已經比較進步的一個國家我覺得在保護人權的部分"},{"start":110.663,"end":137.304,"text":"也要關注所以目前的討論我們會兩者兼具就是說對於人權對於隱私的這個保護以及產業的發展我們希望兩者可以相輔相成所以主委的意思是說我們要先有一個指引然後再比較統合一些意見跟共識然後再來做立法那今年年底有可能這個草案會出來嗎"},{"start":138.376,"end":138.396,"text":"兼職"},{"start":168.436,"end":170.678,"text":"主委您自己本身也來自我們的教育界之前其實在受訪的時候您有說"},{"start":198.477,"end":199.198,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告議員"},{"start":228.237,"end":229.278,"text":"議員吳誠文列席報告議員吳誠文列席報告"},{"start":251.007,"end":272.645,"text":"後來就沒了那這個部分是不是在科技上就是在學系上面會不會因為AI的風潮然後反而讓一些所謂的跟人文相關的一些科系這個資源上的這個變成變成比較沒有那麼的平均啊那這個部分其實是我們有一點擔心的這個您怎麼看呢"},{"start":272.705,"end":291.403,"text":"我非常同意委員的看法其實我個人也是很關注這個議題我希望說利用台灣科技的優勢可以來協助傳統的甚至11住行、娛樂各行各業都能夠善用AI的工具來協助他們轉型而且也可以留住人才"},{"start":292.867,"end":315.188,"text":"除了要流出人才其實這些科系還是有必要性的一個存在啦那只是說在這樣子的一個轉型的部分比方說我們剛剛看到一些像電視啦網路行銷啦或者是商務啦觀光英語啦或者是餐飲啦像類似這樣子或者是一般的所謂的文學院或商學院它怎麼樣跟AI這個部分來做結合或者是怎麼樣來做"},{"start":316.809,"end":317.289,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":338.328,"end":339.189,"text":"公務委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":363.712,"end":387.285,"text":"其實我們比較擔心的是因為這個一窩蜂的AI啦反而會讓原本他們比方說我剛剛講的那些人文科系的一些學校因為招不到學生反而會停招這個也是將來有可能會碰到的面臨的一個問題這是真的就是活生生的會出現在這個教育界當中那這個部分可能我們也是要再來做更進一步的一個研究"},{"start":389.046,"end":407.355,"text":"第三個問題其實我想要問到的是當然這個其實我們必須說也非常的肯定啦這個國科會對於所謂的這個女性朋友的一個福利啦其實世界上有許多國家正在面臨所謂的這個性別比較比例不均的一個狀況啦"},{"start":411.158,"end":421.808,"text":"公布了111年度性別分析的報告投入所謂的科技產業的男女的比例上其實還是3比1"},{"start":423.47,"end":423.63,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":438.826,"end":466.175,"text":"就是讓女性能夠進入到高科技產業的一個職場那當然也要幫助他們比方說在育兒的一個部分那我們知道國科會其實在2021年的時候在職場互助教保服務中心這個部分其實也服務了蠻多就是在職的女性那他們的小朋友這兩歲到這個學齡前有這樣子的一個等於是招收在"},{"start":466.955,"end":467.296,"text":"請相關人員來回答這個問題。"},{"start":481.972,"end":502.798,"text":"是,委員跟您報告一下就是我們國科會教保中心目前是收50個那是依照教育部國教署他訂了一些職域那按照我們的那個規定所以我們現在是50個是因為師生比的關係是訂50個因為最多其實本來應該是可以到60個對不對對,因為我們考慮到我們場地的關係對"},{"start":508.16,"end":522.8,"text":"對,所以我們那時候就是一開始規劃的話就是50個那113年的話就按照教育部他有規定為了讓就是幼兒可以得到更好的一個教育所以那個師生比就有調降又再繼續調降"},{"start":523.821,"end":541.817,"text":"但是我相信應該需求會更多啦因為我們知道其實在國科會不管是資策會啦公研院啦或者是國研院等等相關的這樣子的一個部門啦我是說應該需求的人其實應該會比較多那你們沒有想要再增設這樣子的一個"},{"start":543.518,"end":543.818,"text":"議員提供解釋"},{"start":566.207,"end":569.432,"text":"獲得的資料是從50個變48個。因為這個數字也是教育部、國教署合訂給我們的。這個部分我們會努力再跟"},{"start":583.03,"end":586.874,"text":"對,因為雖然是以女性員工的子女為主啦那要符合這樣的條件我相信也有很多人在申請啦是"},{"start":599.528,"end":599.668,"text":"稍後顧之憂"},{"start":615.467,"end":631.384,"text":"主委這邊我認同委員的看法我們會跟教育部來協調看有沒有機會我們來增加一些名額然後增加照顧的人員然後把那個師生筆的部分能夠再符合條件然後讓更多的女性朋友能夠安心的投入我們必須符合法規但是我看看有沒有這個機會有空間可以做好謝謝謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"152874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152874","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45386d7c795984acb509f2fcaa3dc194f7380469f81d00442834a6488c8a1a4c8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:45:52 - 09:54:33","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":521,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:54:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:45:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦了。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在人家都拿你以前的話來頂你現在怎麼回答，你剛才講的也很誠懇，就是角色不同、位置不同，這個也很實在，就跟我們在國會要講實話一樣，這樣講我反而很欣賞。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：「新任勞動部長何佩珊，勞團驚呼：勞保年金大刀要砍了」，有這個事情嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，絕對不會，絕對沒有，我剛剛已經講得很清楚。"],["蘇委員清泉：你剛剛在報告的時候，我在辦公室有看，你說政府會撥補嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：政策是「多繳、少領、延後退」，這就是瘋話嘛！繳多一點、領少一點、比較慢領，這個歐巴桑就會了，還需要你嗎？我們機構的清潔勞務公司的經理跟我說：「現在這個部長是讀什麼的？」我說：「我不知道耶！查看看。」他說：「這種政策，還需要他嗎？」繳多一點、慢一點領，最好做到死都不要領，是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這是過去年改在討論的方案，基本上不可能……"],["蘇委員清泉：這個是賴總統講出來的，他在演講的時候這樣講耶！"],["何部長佩珊：賴總統沒有講過這樣子的方案，這是過去8年蔡總統執政的時候，曾經討論過的年改方案，不過基本上這在勞保年改是不適用的。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。法國只有把退休年齡延長兩年，暴動差不多持續將近兩年，到現在還在亂，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：這就是我們如果要進行所謂的「多繳、少領、延後退」這個東西，事實上它付出的社會代價跟成本是非常高的，而且恐怕我們整體社會都承擔不起，因為勞保是1,050萬人的保險，那麼它幾乎已經等於是國民基礎年金的角色了。"],["蘇委員清泉：政府的角色在哪裡？你搞這個就是把問題丟給勞工，叫他慢一點退、以後領少一點，要有心理準備，叫雇主要繳多一點。然後政府的角色是什麼？政府的公共投資要夠，這個跟我們醫療是一模一樣的嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在醫療搞一個總額預算，全部把財務的壓力丟給醫界，然後這十幾年來，政府很好幹啊！他們沒有壓力，到年底就是總額預算，就是浮動嘛！浮動就是1點變成0.8、0.6、0.7，都你家的事！還好我們勞動部不錯，還會撥補，知道政府的角色在哪裡。現在的衛福部就是擺爛嘛！我看起來這兩個問題是一模一樣，就是政府的公共角色、政府的投入要夠多，才能穩定這兩個，醫療是臺灣最大的穩定力量，醫療如果崩塌，整個就崩塌了，勞工更是我們心中的一塊肉。所以我要跟你講，你剛剛有講了會破產或什麼的，我問一個問題Uber Eats跟foodpanda要合併，併了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：現在他們宣布而已。"],["蘇委員清泉：宣布而已。"],["何部長佩珊：對，合併的過程會走很長的。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個我比較擔心……因為我很少在叫外送，但我覺得做吃的人，我這裡要給他們肯定，我去餐廳，不管哪一個餐廳吃飯，坐下來都很感恩，人家要煮一頓飯給我們吃，我就很感恩了，好吃、不好吃，我從來不會嫌棄。來了就吃，吃一吃就感謝付錢，嫌高嫌低……因為做吃的實在很辛苦。好啦，現在Uber Eats跟foodpanda如果合併變成一家，費用它自己訂，外送員的薪水、權益就它訂，它說了算，會不會這樣？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：有可能啊，因為是第一名跟第二名的合併，這茲事體大，對消費者跟對外送員的權益，都可能會產生嚴重的傷害。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你的看法是不好嘛？我們醫界有兩個國家醫院，一個是臺大醫院，一個是臺北榮民總醫院，為什麼以前會扶植兩家都當國家醫院？就是競爭嘛！既競爭又聯合，醫療水準才會提高……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果只有一家太大、獨大，這樣它就自以為老大最厲害，全世界我最厲害，如果是榮總也是危險耶！所以兩家在評比，你看這次在國外評比，榮總的分數竟然贏過臺大，雖然贏不多，臺大的院長很不服氣，但不服氣就拼嘛！所以Uber Eats跟foodpanda要合併，我們是審慎，要很審慎。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，再來我要問你一個問題，剛剛你有講，高虹安的事情、國會助理的事情，你在老柯那邊當過主任，什麼回捐、回扣亂七八糟，你的看法是什麼？這個很重要，因為你是勞動部長，所以我要問你這個問題，很難回答對嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員這一題，我沒有很瞭解耶，真的抱歉！"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這也是一個大問題啦，那你就準備好再來說吧！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛震災的措施，我看你也講的非常多，昨天我在屏東縣小琉球做交通的考察，次長有去，而交通部長就親自打電話給我說他陪行政院長在花蓮勘災，我就給他拍拍手，他去講什麼我不知道啦，但是至少馬上去啦！所以在勞工這邊的措施，你有什麼亮點？"],["何部長佩珊：我剛剛特別在業務報告有提到，訓練補助跟僱用獎勵，這個是第一次我們就安基金使用在對企業補助，讓它能夠不解僱勞工，這個是第一次使用，大概要花4.6億，就是所謂的僱用獎助啦！所以這一點請委員務必要支持。"],["蘇委員清泉：這一點我們一定支持。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有幾十秒，我問一個，現在立法院在表決這個事情，十幾年前你是同意的；十幾年後，你像是保留？還是反對？沒辦法回答？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，容我講一點心裡話喔，這個條文進行二讀，我十分震驚悲傷啊，我期待我們大院的委員能夠看到我們國際友人的呼籲，包括像司徒文教授他們的看法……"],["蘇委員清泉：美國的參眾議員，很多都說這個本來就應該要通過的，我們要注意外電的報導，你講的是那一面，你以前的行事作風非常的強悍，我們也非常的佩服，但是你當勞動部長，不一樣了喔！如果你在這邊隨便嗆會出問題喔！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：大家要圓融啦，不然我們會走得很辛苦，這是對你的期許啦，以上，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：謝謝蘇委員的發言。接下來我們請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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高到多的、娘到少的、客人娘,這就歐巴桑就要,踏到你。 我們那個機構的清潔勞務公司的經理跟我講說,現在這個部長是特性的。 我說我不知道耶,我不知道差什麼。 他說這就政策這樣,那踏到他。"},{"start":99.471,"end":101.292,"text":"9月22日、23日二天一次會議員：蘇清泉"},{"start":129.244,"end":140.333,"text":"好,華國只有把退休年齡延長兩年,暴動持續將近兩年,到現在還在亂,你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":141.711,"end":164.842,"text":"這就是我們要如果要進行所謂的這一種多腳少領、延後退中這個東西事實上它付出的社會代價跟成本是非常高的而且恐怕我們整體社會都承擔不起因為這勞保是1050萬人的保險那麼它幾乎已經是等於是國民的基礎年金的角色了"},{"start":165.362,"end":182.438,"text":"政府的角色在哪裡啦?你搞這個就是把問題丟給勞工,叫人家看盤才拿,要有心理準備,然後叫僱主說你要搞多一點,然後政府的角色是什麼?"},{"start":183.238,"end":203.915,"text":"政府公共投資與政策投資要夠嘛這個跟我們醫療是一模一樣的嘛現在醫療搞一個總額預算全部把財務的壓力丟給醫界然後這十幾年來政府很好幹啊他們就沒有壓力啊到年底就是總額預算就是浮動嘛浮動就是一點變成0.8、0.6、0.7都你知道的事情"},{"start":208.249,"end":233.049,"text":"現在我們的勞動部不錯,還有多普 知道政府的角色在哪裡現在的衛福部就是擺爛嘛這樣我看起來這兩個問題是一模一樣就政府你的公共政府你的角色政府你的投入要過多才能穩定這兩個醫療是台灣最大的穩定力量"},{"start":234.597,"end":241.172,"text":"醫療幫全都幫勞工更是我們心中的一塊肉所以我要跟你講下一張"},{"start":243.451,"end":262.66,"text":"這個你剛剛有講了嘛,吧啦吧啦吧啦,會破產會什麼的。好,我問一個問題。Uber跟Fupanda要合併,變了嗎?現在他們宣布而已。宣布而已。對,這個合併的過程會走很長的。那這個我比較擔心的,因為我很少再叫外送了。"},{"start":265.385,"end":290.62,"text":"我覺得我們做這家人,做吃的人,我這裡要跟他們肯定我去餐廳吃,不管哪一個餐廳吃,我坐下來都很感恩人家要煮飯給我們吃,我就很感恩,好這裡壞這裡,我從來沒在想的再來就吃,吃了吃了就感謝父親,欠官欠家,我坐在這邊,因為煮這家實在有夠辛苦好啦,那現在Uber跟副胖達如何變成一家?"},{"start":291.789,"end":314.19,"text":"那現在不用他自己定然後這個接送員的薪水他的權益由他定他說了算會不會這樣部長有可能啊因為他是第一名跟第二名的合併這知識體大對消費者跟對外送員的權益都是很可能會產生嚴重的傷害所以你的看法是不好嗎"},{"start":315.191,"end":333.345,"text":"我們一屆齁兩個國家醫院一個是臺大醫院一個是農民總醫院臺北齁那為什麼以前會扶持兩家醫院都當國家醫院這就競爭嘛具競爭又聯合醫療水準才會提高對齁如果只要一家泰大獨大愛的老大我想搞的全世界都要想搞齁"},{"start":334.326,"end":334.546,"text":"阿那榮總?"},{"start":334.546,"end":360.493,"text":"也是危險的所以兩家在評比你看這一次在國外評比榮總的分數竟然贏過台大雖然贏不多啦台大的院長都很不無氣阿不無氣就拚嘛所以這個Uber跟富邦達要合併我們是省慎喔要很省慎是是是部長那再來我要問你一個問題喔這個剛剛你要講這高峰安的事情"},{"start":363.032,"end":363.493,"text":"呃...拍回答齁"},{"start":383.087,"end":395.993,"text":"我覺得這題我沒有很了解耶真的抱歉因為這個也是一個大問題啦好下一張那你就準備好再來說吧謝謝"},{"start":398.939,"end":425.034,"text":"那剛剛震災的措施我看你也講的非常多昨天我在屏東縣在小陽橋做交通的考察那次長去那部長就親自打電話給交通部長說他陪行政院長在花蓮看災我就給他拍拍手我說去講什麼我不知道但是至少你馬上去所以你這些勞工這邊的措施有什麼亮點"},{"start":427.511,"end":450.118,"text":"我剛剛有跟特別在剛剛業務報告有提到訓練補助跟雇用獎勵這個是我們第一次救安基金使用在對企業來補助他能夠不解雇勞工這個是第一次使用當然要花4.6億所以這就是所謂的雇用獎助"},{"start":450.898,"end":467.511,"text":"所以這一點請委員務必要支持這樣子對這個這一點我們一定支持謝謝謝謝好那還有幾十秒問一個現在這個立法院在表決這個事情十幾年前你是同意的那十幾年後好像你是保留還是反對"},{"start":469.871,"end":471.992,"text":"美國的參眾議員很多都說這個本來就應該要通過的我們也有對於外面的報導你講的那一面"},{"start":498.298,"end":498.759,"text":"謝謝蘇委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45335edc9f0ab618e5ef1f99622ceb699a780469f81d004428335370ae7c0b599e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:47:16 - 09:54:24","影片長度":"00:07:08","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":428,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:54:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:47:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時47分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。這次兩大外送平台合併會不會變成是一個外送合成獸？甚至是一個失控的臺灣外送產業呢？我相信剛剛委員已經提到了，您壓力應該是很大的，雖然還沒開始正式審，可是我相信已經有很多很多的人跟你講，這個對臺灣影響太大了，我看你提的報告裡面講到，會有4個面向去檢討嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你報告還沒出來，如果就這四項，市場集中度、結合後併購方訂價能力這兩項看起來都不會過吧，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想要看整個資料來判斷。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，他們兩個加一加，你看Uber Eats現在是9.5億美元，新臺幣309億要去併購foodpanda，這個加起來就像你剛才說的，這是資策會公布的，超過八成嘛！八成當然是市場集中度很高吧？八成是不是很高？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以不用審啊！大家一看就知道第一個面向一定是超過嘛！對不對？第二個，結合以後併購方訂價能力，本來兩間就是最大的，加起來併購能力變一間，這個第二個應該答案也很清楚了吧，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我看還是要……"],["張委員啓楷：點個頭還是……"],["李主任委員鎂：還是要看整個資料後再進一步詳細的分析。"],["張委員啓楷：ok，不過現在看起來，第一項你是認同的，市場集中度看起來有問題嘛！那結合後併購方訂價能力現在來看，其實民眾會很關心是因為它影響的實在是太大了。第一個，外送員，主委，你知道外送員的薪資前陣子有被這兩個平台降低，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：有被降低？你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有看到這個消息。"],["張委員啓楷：一個基本單的費用現在是多少錢，你知道嗎？我先跟你說一下，他之前一張單基本費可以拿到60到70塊錢，現在已經降到多少，你知道嗎？本來是60到70元，這兩家他們聯合去把他降下來，現在是多少，你知道嗎？砍到只剩下40塊，本來一張單60到70元，兩家一起把他降到40塊錢了。那我再問你，對合作店家會不會很大影響？一定會嘛！對不對？你知道現在店家抽成差不多多少？100塊會抽多少？抽百分之多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：店家的部分應該是差不多30%到40%啦！再縮小的話是32%到38%啦！"],["張委員啓楷：對，這個高不高？你若開一間店，這個抽成很高，那現在是有兩大家，現在合起來這個抽成不是就更高了？所以對外送員有很大的影響，對合作的店家很大影響，其實衝擊更大的就是我們一般消費者，羊毛出在羊身上，對不對？所以這個案子來老實講，真的是影響非常的大，一方面現在外送員平台上面，我去看他們，他們已經在集結，或者他們有些討論了，有的人說如果這樣做，如果這次合併成功之後，這行業對他們來講，搞不好都必須要轉行了，所以外送員的權益怎麼去照顧到，請公平會一定要納入考量，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：根本的解決方案是什麼？我覺得除了要依靠公平會之外，它應該定一個專法，台灣民眾黨在上個會期就有提出一個專法了，它要對外送平台的管理，還有外送從業人員的權益是要有一個保障的，最近我們臺灣民眾會再提案，我們請主委要提供你的專業意見，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：要保障到外送人員，然後店家的一些議價能力，你們都要提供你們的專業意見，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那我再問一個比較重要的、更具體的，我們剛才說了，去年9月這兩家大的平台談好了，結果把他們的外送員薪資往下降，壓低他們的報酬，那時候你們有宣布要對這兩家平台做立案調查，這是去年9月的事，到現在為什麼都沒有看到你們的調查報告？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員談的是foodpanda跟Uber Eats降低外送員報酬，這部分我們有調查，根據我們調查的結果，其實是分別定價，並不是聯合、先講好的，並沒有事證證明他們兩個是先講好的。"],["張委員啓楷：他們沒有犯意的聯絡？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有這個合同的行為。"],["張委員啓楷：就是沒有你平常講的犯意跟聯合就對了？"],["李主任委員鎂：它計費的項目等等，我們有做瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以後來是沒有問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，認為……"],["張委員啓楷：可是就是一下降那麼多，而且兩家幾乎是同時降啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：就是說個別降，這個在公平專法是沒有非難的可能性。"],["張委員啓楷：是個別降，所以還是拿它沒辦法？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為他們不是先講好的嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：不是共同的，你把那個報告給我一份，好不好？這個報告已經提出來過，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們已經有做過……"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們來看一下這個報告，我們再詳細來談，好不好？","另外，至於剛剛本席提到的，怎麼去保障到外送員、保障到合作的店家、保障到消費者的權利？在整個議價過程裡面，這是你們的責任嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們會審慎評估。"],["張委員啓楷：你一方面等它送這個申請過來，一方面在一個禮拜能不能先有一個評估報告給我們？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會把整個案情的過程會後再跟委員做說明。"],["張委員啓楷：做評估，好不好？你已經有做了，還是目前可以趕快去做？"],["李主任委員鎂：這兩個，委員，你說的是這個結合案，還是降低報酬的部分？"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，就是現在要合併的這個。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個合併案我們是5月14號收到這個申報的案件……"],["張委員啓楷：5月14號收到？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，5月14號，所以現在是針對這個資料來做評估。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那你大概需要多久，你拿到以後需要多久？你應該會先有一個評估嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看它資料齊不齊備，如果齊備就受理，受理之後30天的審查期間，必要的時候可以再延60天。"],["張委員啓楷：30天審查之前，你們內部會有一個評估嗎？如果有評估報告能不能一個禮拜先給我？"],["李主任委員鎂：照我們的程序，第一個就是看資料；第二個是徵詢各界的意見；再來就是委員會去討論；最後會做出一個決定。"],["張委員啓楷：好，一方面照你們的法律程序來走，另一方面，如果之前先做一個評估報告，可以的話，就一個禮拜內先給我。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果有進一步消息可提供的話，我會再跟委員聯絡。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：李主委，你要不要想清楚啊，兩個外送平台合併的評估報告，你們可以先送立法院？可以這樣嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：評估報告不行吧？"],["主席：對啊，張委員剛剛講的不是……"],["張委員啓楷：我講的是，你們內部一定會先送評估嘛，對不對？"],["主席：對啊，張委員剛剛講的是請你提供你們內部的評估報告，你們那個可以先送立法院？"],["李主任委員鎂：我說明一下，我們的……"],["主席：你要想清楚喔，不要亂回答喔！"],["李主任委員鎂：因為現在那個應該不是評估報告，而是我們的進度，譬如說現在是在補件當中，這個我們可以對外來說明，不是說對這個案件實情的評估報告。"],["主席：這個是你們的審查進度報告。"],["張委員啓楷：主席在問的是，如果它都齊全，你當然有一個法律程序，30天內你要審嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在就是說除了這個，當然這個到時候都是公開的啦，我是說在這個之前你們內部一定也會做某些評估嘛，你方不方便把這個內部評估報告給我？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有評估……"],["張委員啓楷：不會評估是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是資料都齊全，徵詢意見以後就到委員會去審查，審查結果……"],["張委員啓楷：所以就是要等你們整個開始審查就對了，好，OK。"],["主席：對，我只是要確認一下，不然不小心又害他被告藐視國會，這個很重要。"],["張委員啓楷：不會啦，不會那麼嚴重啦！你看，我們大家都是為人民做事嘛，對不對？"],["主席：是啊。"],["張委員啓楷：你看外送員的權益顧到了，店家的權益也顧到了，民眾的權益也顧到了。你們不要有任何壓力，這都是很平和的，為了國家好。謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","羅智強","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","黃捷","蔡易餘","林岱樺","陳冠廷","陳超明"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及\n對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬\n具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳\n銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.46721875,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.09909375,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.11159375,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.92159375,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.17034375,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.06409375,"end":31.840343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.59971875,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.80159375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.43784375,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.56721875,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.524093750000006,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":61.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.15221875,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.63721875,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.96596875,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.49721875,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.40846875,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.10846875,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.89721875000001,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.22596875,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.37346875,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.67659375000001,"end":84.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.06409375000001,"end":86.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.00471875000001,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.02971875,"end":89.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.32909375,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.40909375000001,"end":91.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.42096875,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.34034375,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.14596875000001,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.45346875000001,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.93409375,"end":107.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.60471875,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.10659375,"end":116.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.56221875000001,"end":111.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.27471875,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.92284375000001,"end":126.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.40721875,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.76096875000002,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.42721875,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.78971875000002,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.12721875,"end":140.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.31284375,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.32971875,"end":141.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.34659375,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.76409375,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.78096875,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.84846875,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.30346875,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.99471875,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.34846875000002,"end":157.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.66034375,"end":158.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.56284375,"end":162.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.16596875000002,"end":163.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.24596875,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.22034375,"end":166.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.39284375,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.98284375,"end":173.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.40034375000002,"end":175.46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對不對是你報告還沒出來那交去四行市場的集中度結合或併購的這個定價能力這兩項看起來都不會過嘛對不對我想要看整個資料才來判斷他們兩家家你看UberEats現在是9.5億美元對不對新台幣309億要去併購普遍打"},{"start":82.452,"end":108.841,"text":"這是施策會公布的嘛,超過八成嘛。被審的中間市場集中度很高吧?被審是不是很高?是。所以不用審啊,大家一看就知道第一個面向一定是超過嘛,對不對?第二個結合以後併購的這個定價能力,本錢兩斤的最大啊,那加起來併購能力變一斤,這個第二個應該也,答案你很清楚了吧?是不是?"},{"start":110.165,"end":136.183,"text":"我看還是要還是要看整個資料齁整個還要進一步詳細的分析OK不過現在看起來第一項你是認同的啦市場集中度看起來有問題嘛那結合後的併購這個定價能力那現在來看齁其實民眾會很關心是因為它影響實在是太大了第一個外送員屬於你知道外送員現在前陣子有被這兩個平台"},{"start":137.849,"end":166.094,"text":"他們這個薪資有被降低對不對?是有被降低你知道嗎?有看到這個消息一個單一個基本基本基本的這個單的費用現在是多少錢你知道嗎?我先跟你講一下他進行一張單喔基本基本費可以拿到60到70塊錢現在已經降到多少你知道嗎?本來是60到70這兩家他們聯合去把它降下來現在重多了你知道嗎?"},{"start":168.424,"end":186.96,"text":"刊到只剩下40塊本來一張單60到70兩家一起把它降降到40塊錢了好那我再問你對合作店家會不會有很大影響一定會嘛對不對你怎麼叫店家"},{"start":188.243,"end":215.414,"text":"應該是差不多三十到四十吧?再縮小一點,32到38%啦。對啊,這個高不高?你如果開一間店,這個抽層很高耶。那現在是有兩大家,現在合起來,那這個抽層不是就更高了?所以對外送員有很大的影響,對合作的店家有很大的影響。其實衝擊更大就是我們,一般的消費者嘛。"},{"start":216.909,"end":220.65,"text":"所以外送員的潛力怎麼去照顧到?請公平委員一定要納入考量好不好?"},{"start":243.888,"end":269.585,"text":"那根本的解決方案是什麼我覺得除了要依靠公平委之外他應該訂一個專法台灣民眾黨在上個會期就提出一個專法了他要對外送平台的管理還有外送這個從業人員這個權利是要有一個保障的那這個最近我們台灣民眾黨會在提案我們請主委要提供你的專業意見好不好要保障到"},{"start":270.98,"end":299.531,"text":"外送人員、店家的一些議價能力,提供專業意見,好不好?問一個比較重要的,更具體的,那怎麼說啊?久年到尾啊,這兩家大的平台,他們說好啊,結果把他們外送人員的薪資往下降了,壓低他們的報酬,那時候你有選擇嗎?你們宣布說你們要對這兩家平台做立案的調查,久年到尾的事到現在,是我們無法理解的調查報告?"},{"start":303.3,"end":328.281,"text":"委員談的是說Full Panda跟UberEats降低外送員報酬這我們有調查根據我們調查的結果其實是分別定價並不是聯合公同貨並沒有市政﹐他們沒有範例的聯繫就是沒有你平常講的那個範例跟那個聯合就對了那它計費的項目等等我們有做這個瞭解"},{"start":329.042,"end":353.625,"text":"所以後來是沒有問題嗎?那可是就是一下降那麼多啊,而且兩家幾乎是同時降啊。就是說個別降,這個在公平交易法是沒有非難的。是個別降,所以還是拿它沒辦法。因為它不是共同合嘛。不是共同,你把那個報告給我一份好不好。這個已經提出來過對不對?是,我們已經有做過實力了。好,我們來看一下這個報告的這個,裡面的,我們把它詳細來談好不好。那另外之一我們剛剛本席提到的,怎麼去保障到"},{"start":354.406,"end":365.781,"text":"外送員保障到合作這個店家保障到消費者這個權利在整個溢價過程裡面這是你們責任嗎這是我們會審慎評估你一方面等他送這個申請過來一方面你在一個禮拜能不能先有一個評估報告給我們"},{"start":367.08,"end":393.695,"text":"我們會把這個整個案情的過程再跟會後跟委員評估好不好?你已經有做了還是目前可以趕快去做?這兩個齁,那個我以為你說的是這個結合啊還是說那個降低報酬那一部分?喔沒有沒有,現在合併這個?這個合併案我們是5月14號收到這個申報的案件齁,我們目前針對這個 五月十四十二?對,五月十四齁,所以現在是針對這個資料在做評估好,那你大概多久?你拿到以後多久?你應該先會有一個評估嘛對不對?"},{"start":394.355,"end":403.264,"text":"我們會看他資料齊不齊備,如果齊備以後就受理,受理以後30天的審查期間。需要時候可以延到再延60天。我想我們最後,我們是會照我們的程序是會第一個就是說看資料,第二個徵詢各界的意見,那再來就是委員會去討論,最後會做出一個決定。"},{"start":416.496,"end":424.141,"text":"一方面照你們的法律程序來走,那一方面如果之前先做一個評估報告,可以的話就先一個禮拜內先給。如果有進一步消息可提供的話,我會再跟你們。"}]}},{"id":"152872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4532c92e2e3c3adf66b5d1368e7b3a1940e80469f81d0044283e4aeba2417dfd2865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:36:20 - 09:48:26","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":726,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:48:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:36:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時36分）謝謝主席。有請吳誠文主委備詢。"],["主席：好，有請吳誠文主委。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好，我們都是科技人，2019年我去參加ACM MobiSys研討會的時候，就瞭解到災防簡訊是有可能、也可以被駭客劫持並且偽造發送的，我們在這邊做一個情境：我們收到了一個簡訊，而且是總統級的警報，說北部沿海地區發生地震引發了海嘯，預計會怎樣怎樣，請大家趕快疏散啦！然後英文說「……destructive force caused by typhoon in this area. Take shelter ASAP.」而且還連續發了兩則，看起來煞有其事。如果駭客透過政府的平臺發出這個訊息給全國民眾，請大家趕快移動，結果發現並沒有海嘯，一開始還有點猶豫，到底是颱風還是海嘯？主委覺得這樣的情況，對民眾來說算不算一種犯罪？算不算一種詐欺？故意傳送錯誤訊息，而且還透過國科會底下的災防告警系統來散布，政府該不該將這個駭客繩之以法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該的、應該的。"],["葛委員如鈞：應該嘛！但是真的很不好意思啦，我也覺得應該，民眾散布假訊息可能被查辦，但今天如果散布假訊息的是政府呢？主委，同時也是政委，是不是應該要比照辦理？主委，還記不記得今年總統大選是哪一天？我直接回答是1月13號，選舉前四天1月9號我們國家發生了一件很轟動的事，主委記得是什麼嗎？1月9號，我們其實有提示啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個飛彈的訊息。"],["葛委員如鈞：1月9號3點16分國家級飛彈警報，您對這個警報有印象嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是從媒體看到。"],["葛委員如鈞：您有沒有收到啊？應該有，兩千三百萬人都有收到，如果你手機沒收到，你可能要檢查一下，應該都要有喔，否則就是你們的系統可能有點問題，或者你主動關掉了，希望您打開，因為您的身分現在很重要，好不好？我們希望您可以很安全。","好，這個警報看起來很像真的，還連發兩則，英文寫Missile，當時的陳建仁院長說看錯了，是衛星，但他一開始說：喔！是飛彈。我們現場在座有外國記者朋友，許多的國人還有外國的單位收到這個警報都嚇壞了，以為真的是軍事攻擊，好在後來國防部在一個小時以後，也就是4點15分開了記者會澄清，但是一個小時，民眾已經可以從臺北逃難搭高鐵到臺中。","然而災防細胞簡訊廣播系統在你們CBS的網站上，有公告各部會的訊息範本，這些範本有很大的重要性，應該要照範本來，我們才能知道哪些訊息真的是政府發出來，而不是駭客發出來的。本席曾經詢問過國科會說這個訊息，你們是不是要查核有沒有符合範本呢？你們說災防中心建立的廣播系統只是平臺，你們沒有權力檢核各部會發出的訊息內容，對嗎？","我們幫你看一下，國防部到昨天5月20號為止的CBS網站訊息範本，可以看到只有飛彈相關的範本，沒有衛星！但是國防部1月9號的警報首先發出了中文衛星的訊息，明顯不是訊息範本內容，而且還連發2次，後來雖然英文改正為Launch vehicle，但現在Launch vehicle這個詞也還沒有更新到這個訊息上。飛彈的訊息不夠、而且衛星的內容也沒有、Launch vehicle也沒有更新，再一次凸顯依然不是訊息範本的內容！國科會到底有沒有要來確認？我先確認以國科會的邏輯來說，發出警報的單位是不是應該要負責確認發出警報訊息的內容？"],["吳主任委員誠文：訊息的內容是由主責單位負責，我們只是建立平臺而已。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好、很好！所以後續的更正是不是也是由發出警報的單位來處理？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該是。"],["葛委員如鈞：依CBS網站上的紀錄，這邊除了改正後的訊息外，備註：國防部更正。我想請教，這裡的「國防部更正」是誰要求更正？誰要求備註？還是國科會自主發起？還是國防部提出？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是國防部。"],["葛委員如鈞：國防部提出嘛。那請國科會簡單說明一下，3點16分發出飛彈警報、17分第2則，到CBS網站上註記「國防部更正」是4點50分，中間這段時間發生了什麼事情？誰聯繫災防中心？透過什麼方式聯絡？歷史紀錄在哪裡？有沒有公文往返的紀錄？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請……"],["葛委員如鈞：不然我們怎麼知道是不是駭客打電話跟你們說：我是國防部，請你們更正啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個細節我請災防中心主任回答。"],["陳主任宏宇：委員好。從3點16分以後到他更正的4點50分左右，我們有確認要更改的那一位國防部的承辦人還有國防部的窗口，兩方面都確認。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，有訊息嘛，有沒有公文？雙方有沒有公文？"],["陳主任宏宇：雙方有email的來往。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們後續來瞭解一下，我們來看看事情發生之後的相關後續因應程序，有沒有明確留下聯絡的資訊？事後應該要做什麼樣的程序補正？這部分我們接下來都要來關注。","我們現在再來繼續追問，1月30號行政院發布了優化災防警報系統，是說什麼呢？我們之前已經經歷了很驚險、很緊張，因為這個範本對比不起來，結果行政院1月30號發文的是什麼呢？可以更加彈性，必要的時候可以手動輸入訊息，也就是現在這個moment，幾分鐘之後你可能會收到總統級警報說：我愛Hello Kitty！因為這是任何一個單位都可以發出啊，國科會也不用檢查，是嘛？照我們剛剛邏輯一路下來是這樣，對嗎？政委，您可以回答，這個是政委的職責，因為這是行政院的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：資安檢查我們會做啦，因為內容不是我們主責，所以內容還是必須要由主責單位來修正。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，這一點我不是很理解，但未來我們希望可以再多一點互動。0109的事件暴露的就是人工手動修改有高度的風險，因為會有錯誤，但是行政院討論完的結論卻是再擴大彈性，這樣合理嗎？透過這樣的烏龍，到底是在發送芒果乾呢？還是用國家安全為名傳遞訊息給2,300萬大眾？而且時機又這麼的特別！","剛剛我們又看到了，如果是一般人透過這樣的訊息來發送錯假的訊息會被移送法辦，您也同意，但是現在民進黨政府發出來的訊息，我們目前還不知道真相，其實很多細節也都沒有公開，而且這件事情發生以後，相關的網站上甚至找不到我們本來收到這一則訊息的資料，你們的平臺上面ATOM feed竟然只能下載到7天以內的資料，真的是不知道為什麼！","所以我本席善意地建議，針對CBS網站的歷史資料查詢，這是文字紀錄，這並不是什麼圖像、影片，檔案格式都很小啦！所以我建議：第一，請國科會建立災防告警系統的突發應變處理程序，並且包含突發事件後相關公文的補正程序，而且希望能夠溯及既往；針對CBS網站上的災防訊息，希望能夠有資料下載的專區，你們的API檢索竟然只能回溯7天而不是全部，應該要可以回溯全部，而且應該要研議未來要上鏈，這是我們的歷史！","以上兩點，能不能有機會在1個月內完成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們尊重委員的意見，我們檢討修正，1個月。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝！這次還是很感動，我們相關的部會真的非常肯任責。","第二個部分，我想今天重點是AI，你們是AI內閣，我也一直被說是AI阿宅，所以我一定要來關心一下科技領域關於AI的想法。您對半導體、AI也都非常瞭解，從今年開始，行政院推動的晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案10年計畫就要開始，預計要挹注3,000億的經費，我再講一次，3,000億的經費！本席多次詢問，沒有人能夠好好講清楚這10年3,000億預算到底怎麼來、要怎麼用？難道只是一個口號嗎？透過晶片與生成式AI的結合，大家真的都很期待，我認為如果有好的計畫，花更多的錢都可以考慮，但如果沒有計畫，這些錢我們就應該好好檢討。","以韓國為例，今年度投入218億臺幣，預期要讓各式各樣的AI功能在南韓成為日常，那臺灣呢？我想請教一下主委，我們的目標是什麼？優勢是什麼？主委，你也是科技政委，你覺得我們的願景是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI是一個人類很重要的工具，我們當然希望透過AI可以協助我們各行各業的發展，這是我們重要的方向。"],["葛委員如鈞：您也同意這樣論點的話，我下一個問題就很合理了。主委怎麼看待AI的法制規範？現在全球都在討論AI的法制框架，還有我們社會發展的框架。吳政忠前主委兩個多月前說，行政院今年年底會推出AI基本法草案，您上任以後還是朝著這個方向規劃進行嗎？這個速度夠嗎？還是有沒有不同的想法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前朝著原來的規劃方向在進行。"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有考慮更快一點？這個AI發展真的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，快一點！"],["葛委員如鈞：唉喲，我看到一顆直球來了，我接住了，主委，我接住了，真的很感謝啦！如果你有看我過去的質詢，你可以理解到我們真的是非常憂心，也非常希望臺灣的AI要加速，我都幫TAIDE講話、我都幫臺灣LLM講話，我們認為這些平臺、這些技術的訓練應用，還有跨部會資料的開源是我上任以來持續高度關注的議題。","我想提醒一下主委，我們有許多部會都有跟AI相關的政策，您是政委，所以我跟您說一下，行政院有國家AI推動小組，臺灣有AI行動計畫2.0，要走到3.0了，行政院所屬機關有使用生成式AI的參考指引，數發部有AI產品與系統評測參考指引，金管會也即將公告金融業運用AI的指引，教育部也即將研訂AI教學指引，可能還有更多的單位，相關的單位還會陸續推出更多AI相關的指引。希望主委同時身為科技政委，能夠更全面地瞭解各部會對於AI相關政策的內容，拜託、拜託！統整性地來思考資源的分配、政策的發展，我們能不能軟硬兼施？而不要只偏重硬；我們可不可以棍子跟蘿蔔都要有？而不是只有棍子！儘量避免多頭馬車的狀況，不要污名化AI，不要閉鎖我們的資源，讓我們的學生在跟AI對話的時候，看到的都是對岸的用語，這是我們要一起來努力的！","最後，我還是非常期待在主委帶領之下，臺下也有我的老師。老師好！我們一起透過產官學研界努力，共同塑造臺灣成為全球半導體以及AI科技應用創新的領頭羊！主委，好球來一發！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們同意、委員的老師也同意。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，兩顆好球！謝謝，謝謝主席、謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。主委請回。","我們接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.51034375,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.121593750000002,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.137843750000002,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.94784375,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.516593750000002,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.03409375000001,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.79346875,"end":105.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.82846875000001,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.62909375000001,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.70034375,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.98159375,"end":127.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.99409375000002,"end":250.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.39659375000002,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.03659375,"end":278.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.72159375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.97471875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.02534375,"end":299.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.96284375000005,"end":303.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.96659375,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.21971875,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.23659375,"end":304.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.32096875,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.33784375000005,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.38846875,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.96221875000003,"end":306.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.97034375000004,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.77096875,"end":332.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.26596875,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.65409375,"end":335.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.10971875,"end":334.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.50596875,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.17034375000003,"end":379.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.02221875000004,"end":388.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.08409375,"end":390.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.27346875,"end":400.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.60971875,"end":492.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.32096875,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.02909375,"end":562.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.48721875,"end":573.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.3715937500001,"end":599.9709687500001},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possible而且還連續發了兩則看起來煞有其事"},{"start":62.057,"end":86.961,"text":"如果駭客透過政府的平台發出了這個訊息給全國的民眾大家趕快移動結果發現並沒有海嘯一開始還有點猶豫到底是颱風還是海嘯所以覺得這樣的情況對民眾來說算不算一種犯罪算不算一種詐欺故意傳送錯誤訊息而且還透過國科會底下的災防告警系統來散佈政府該不該將這個駭客繩之以法"},{"start":88.349,"end":105.098,"text":"應該的應該的應該嗎?真的不好意思我也覺得應該民眾散佈假訊息可能被查辦但今天如果散佈假訊息的是政府呢?政委是不是也覺得應該要主委同時也是政委是不是應該比照辦理主委還記不記得今年總統大選是哪一天?我直接回答1月13號選舉前4天1月9號我們國家發生了一件很轟動的事主委記得是什麼嗎?1月9號我們其實有提示"},{"start":117.882,"end":125.029,"text":"那個飛彈的訊息3點16分1月9號國家級飛彈警報您對這個警報有印象嗎我是從媒體看到看起來您有沒有收到應該有2300人都有收到如果您手機沒收到你可能要檢查一下應該都要有否則就是你們的系統可能有點問題或者你主動關掉希望您打開因為您的身份現在很重要好不好我們希望您可以很安全好"},{"start":143.486,"end":170.346,"text":"這個警報看起來很像真的還連發兩則英文寫的MISO當時的陳建仁院長說看錯了是衛星但他一開始說是飛彈我們現場在座有記者就是外國朋友許多的國人還有外國的單位都收到這個警報的時候都嚇壞了以為真的軍事攻擊好在後來國防部在一個小時以後也就是4點15分開了記者會澄清但是一個小時民眾已經可以從台北逃難搭高鐵到台中"},{"start":172.668,"end":191.918,"text":"但是災防細胞的這個簡訊廣播的系統在你們CBS的網站上有公告各部會的訊息範本這些範本有很大的重要性應該要照範本來我們才能知道哪些訊息是真的政府發出來而不是駭客發出來的那本席曾經詢問過國歌會說這個訊息我們是不是要查核有沒有符合範本你們說災防中心建立的廣播系統只是平台"},{"start":198.962,"end":218.018,"text":"你們沒有權利檢核各部會發出的訊息內容對嗎我們幫你看一下國防部到昨天5月22日為止的CBS網站訊息範本可以看到只有飛彈相關的範本沒有衛星但是呢國防部1月9號的警報首先發出了中文衛星的訊息明顯不是訊息範本內容"},{"start":220.92,"end":243.978,"text":"而且還連發兩次後來雖然英文改正為launch vehicle但是現在launch vehicle這個詞也還沒有更新到這個訊息上飛彈的訊息不夠而且衛星的內容也沒有launch vehicle也沒有更新再次凸顯依然不是訊息範本的內容國科會到底有沒有要來確認我先確認國科會的邏輯來說發出警報的單位是不是應該要負責確認發出警報訊息的內容"},{"start":253.242,"end":279.842,"text":"信息的內容是由主責單位負責我們只是建立平台而已很好很好所以後續的更正是不是也是由發出警報的單位來處理CBS網站上的記錄這邊除了說改正後的訊息外備注國防部更正我想請教這裡的國防部更正是誰要求更正誰要求備注還是國科會自主發起還是國防部提出是國防部"},{"start":280.502,"end":295.409,"text":"國防部提出嘛那請國哥哥簡單說明一下3點16分發出飛彈警報17分第二則到CBS網站上注記國防部更正4點50分中間這段時間發生了什麼事情誰聯繫災防中心透過什麼方式聯絡歷史記錄在哪裡有沒有公務往返的記錄我請不然我們怎麼知道是不是駭客打電話去跟你們說我是國防部請你們更正啊"},{"start":306.988,"end":310.029,"text":"這個細節是不是請我們在網中心主任回答委員好從3點16分以後到他更正的4點50分的左右我們有確認就是說發布的這個要更改的那一位國防部的承辦人還有國防部的窗口兩方面都確認好有訊息嗎有沒有公文"},{"start":333.119,"end":338.122,"text":"我們未來後續來瞭解一下,但是我們來看事情發生啦相關的後續因應的程序有沒有明確留下聯絡的資訊事後應該要做什麼樣的程序補正這個呢我們都接下來要來關注啦"},{"start":349.867,"end":376.225,"text":"但是我們現在再來繼續追問1月30日行政院發布了優化災防警報的系統然後是說什麼呢剛剛我們已經經歷了這個很驚險很緊張因為這個範本對比不起來結果行政院1月30日發文的是什麼呢可以更加彈性必要的時候可以手動輸入訊息也就是現在這個moment幾分鐘之後你可能會收到總統及警報說我愛Hello Kitty因為這是任何一個單位都可以發出"},{"start":380.867,"end":386.917,"text":"國共會也不用檢查是嗎?照我們剛剛邏輯錄下來是這樣對嗎?政委您可以回答這個是政委的職責因為是行政院的"},{"start":392.979,"end":408.913,"text":"我們會做資安檢查因為內容不是我們主責所以內容還是必須要有主責單位來修正這一點我是不是很理解但未來我們希望可以再多一點互動0109的事件曝落就是人工手動修改有高度的風險因為會有錯誤"},{"start":410.334,"end":413.276,"text":"但是行政院討論完的結論卻是再擴大彈性這樣合理嗎?我想透過這樣的烏龍到底是在發送芒果乾還是用國家為名再傳遞訊息給2300萬大眾而且時機又這麼的特別剛剛我們又看到了如果是一般人"},{"start":430.026,"end":447.127,"text":"通過這樣的訊息來發送這種錯假的訊息會被移送法辦您也同意但是現在呢我們民進黨政府發出來的訊息呢我們目前還不知道真相之間很多細節也都沒有公開而且這件事情發生以後相關的網站上甚至找不到我們本來收到的這一則訊息的資料"},{"start":448.729,"end":449.129,"text":"請國家建立災防告警系統的"},{"start":468.686,"end":492.171,"text":"突發應變處理程序並且包含突發事件後相關公文的補正程序而且希望能夠溯及記網針對CPS網站上的災防訊息希望能夠有資料下載的專區你們的API檢索竟然只能回溯7天而不是全部應該要可以回溯全部而且應該要演繹未來要上鏈這是我們的歷史以上兩點能不能有機會在一個月內完成"},{"start":493.359,"end":513.136,"text":"我們尊重委員的意見我們檢討修正一個月謝謝我想這次還是很感動我們相關的部會真的是非常肯認責第二個部分我想今天是AI你們是AI內閣我也一直被說是AI阿宅所以我一定要來關心一下科技領域關於AI的想法您對半導體AI也都非常了解"},{"start":514.737,"end":521.841,"text":"從今年開始行政院推動的晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案10年計劃就要開始預計要預入3000億的經費我再講一次3000億的經費多次詢問沒有人能夠好好的講清楚這10年3000億預算到底怎麼來要怎麼用"},{"start":536.227,"end":561.863,"text":"難道只是一個口號嗎?透過晶片與生成式AI的結合大家真的都很期待啦我認為如果有好的計畫花更多的錢都可以考慮但如果沒有計畫這些錢我們就應該好好檢討韓國維利今年度投入了218億台幣預期要讓各式各樣的AI功能在南韓成為日常那台灣呢?我想請教一下主委我們的目標是什麼?優勢是什麼?主委您也是科技政委你覺得我們的願景是怎麼樣?"},{"start":563.513,"end":587.206,"text":"AI是一個人類很重要的工具我們當然是希望說透過AI可以協助我們各行各業的發展這是我們重要的方向我想您也同意這樣的論點的話我下一個問題就很合理了主委怎麼看待AI的法治規範現在全球都在討論AI的法治框架還有我們的社會發展的框架吳振中主委"},{"start":588.246,"end":605.008,"text":"前主委兩個多月前說行政院今年年底會推出AI基本法草案您上任以後還是朝著這個方向規劃進行嗎?這個速度夠嗎?還是有沒有不同的想法目前朝著原來的規劃方向在進行有沒有考慮更快一點?"},{"start":606.269,"end":621.898,"text":"這個AI發展真的我看到一顆直球來了我接觸了我接觸了真的很感謝如果你有看我過去的質詢你可以理解到我們真的是非常憂心也非常希望台灣的AI要加速"},{"start":622.518,"end":625.221,"text":"我都幫台德講話我都幫台灣LLM講話我們認為這些平台這些技術的訓練應用還有跨部會資料的開源是我上任以來持續高度關注的議題我想提醒一下主委我們有許多部會都有跟AI相關的政策您是政委所以我跟您說一下"},{"start":641.937,"end":670.025,"text":"行政院有國家AI推動小組台灣有AI行動計畫2.0要走到3.0了行政院所屬機關有使用深層式AI的參考指引速發部有AI產品系統評測參考指引金管會也即將公告金融業運用AI的指引教育部也即將嚴定AI教學指引可能還有更多的單位相關的單位還會陸續推出更多AI相關的指引希望主委同時身為科技政委能夠更全面的瞭解各部會對於AI相關政策的內容"},{"start":671.405,"end":685.325,"text":"拜託拜託統整性的來思考資源的分配政策的發展我們能不能軟硬兼施而不要只偏重硬我們可不可以棍子跟蘿蔔都要有而不是只有棍子盡量避免多頭馬車的狀況不要汙名化AI"},{"start":687.588,"end":687.988,"text":"主委﹐好球來一發"},{"start":717.731,"end":720.554,"text":"我們同意,那個委員的老師也同意。"}]}},{"id":"152871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152871","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453305b13e14f3d1e89f1f99622ceb699a780469f81d0044283e3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:38:49 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Eats、foodpanda的合併案是會影響全臺上千萬人的案件，其中包括上千萬人的消費市場，十五萬人左右的勞動市場，以及全臺超過六成的餐飲業者都會受到影響。針對這個合併案，你們的裁決就是攸關上千萬人權益的裁決，請問主委，你會不會覺得有壓力呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個案子會明顯的改變市場結構，我們在評估這個案件的時候會審慎評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席要問公平會自創會至今，有禁止過哪些案件結合？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說我們禁止過統一跟維力的結合，還有錢櫃、好樂迪，還有一些有線電視系統的結合。"],["張委員嘉郡：之前為什麼會禁止這些事業的結合呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想當時禁止結合的理由應該有它根據法令的規定做出的判斷。"],["張委員嘉郡：對於這次跟之前這幾個合併案，本席認為其關鍵在於市占率的界定，這也是過去公平會禁止結合的主要原因，主委認同嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在審查的時候先界定市場，所以當時這些案子的審查應該是根據當時的內容……"],["張委員嘉郡：重點就是界定市場，但是公平會在這個月14號表示兩大外送平台合併會有八成的市占率，本席想請教這八成是如何推估而來？"],["李主任委員鎂：八成是我們在之前有一個前案當時所做的分析。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果公平會沒有實質調查就對外宣布其市占率有八成，我覺得這就是公平會做錯的第一步，你們可能根本錯估了市占率，這樣的錯誤會影響到你們後續審查的依據。據本席推估，公平會應該也是依據現在市面上唯一較有公信力的資策會MIC的調查報告，但是請注意，這份民調並非調查市占率，而是調查消費者使用率，而且它的選項是複選，並且摻雜熟食跟生食市場。因此，如果單看議價能力最弱的熟食市場，foodpanda跟Uber Eats其市占率絕對不只八成，甚至有可能超過九成以上，所以本席的第一個建議就是請公平會要注意，日後調查必須區分熟食市場跟生鮮市場，甚至南北各區的市占率也必須納入考量，請問主委認同嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明一下，您提到的八成是當時我們在109年的時候有一個個案所做的……"],["張委員嘉郡：那也是4年前了……"],["李主任委員鎂：所以現在在審核的結合案……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得4年前，在疫情之前……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會重新做調查。"],["張委員嘉郡：在疫情之前的市占率就有八成，那疫情之後可不得了了，所以4年前的數據你拿出來用就是第一個錯誤，本席在這裡要求公平會的裁決必須保障餐飲業者、勞工及消費者，根據公交法規定，兩大平台結合之後絕對是獨占事業，但我們都知道，獨占本身並非構成禁止結合的要件，對吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：獨占本身是一個事實，我們再進一步判斷該獨占事業有什麼樣的行為、是不是違反公平交易法的規定。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們都知道說Uber Eats跟foodpanda彼此就是最大的競爭者，目前假設它們結合的話，餐飲業者會擔心被漲價，外送員會擔心被砍薪，而且結合之後，消費者是毫無議價能力，那這兩大平台的結合將會造成臺灣餐飲業上下游的浩劫。以前有一個廣告臺詞是「一家烤肉萬家香」，現在這兩大平台的結合，可能會變成「一家烤肉萬家哭」，因此本席認為公平會的裁決必須審慎考慮幾個面向，第一，要保障餐飲業者不會因為結合而必須付出更高的經營成本，兩個外送平台現在的抽成大概是多少，你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：30%到40%不等。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，差不多32%到38%之間，一般的餐飲業者扣除食材成本、人事成本、店租等等，中間店家的獲利大概是25%，但是被外送平台抽了32%至38%之後，店家幾乎是毫無利潤，其實餐飲業者也都是經營得非常辛苦，尤其現在又漲電價，不得已的話，他也只好漲價，吃虧的終歸是消費者。所以第二，本席也希望要要求保障這15萬名外送員的勞工所得，過去外送員假設foodpanda的薪資比較差，他就去Uber Eats；Uber Eats薪資比較差，他就去foodpanda，可以轉換到另外一家，但是合併之後，他就失去了選擇，如何保障外送員的權益，這也是公平會需要考量的，主委同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我同意，就是說將來併購方的交易相對人，您提到的外送員、餐廳或是消費者他們的議價能力，這些我們都會考量在裡面。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，這一點要拜託主委一定要審慎地來協助這些餐飲業者，還有外送員的權益。","那保障消費者的權益，包括現在兩大平台是處於競爭關係，但是消費者有選擇權，如果合併之後，消費者幾乎沒有選擇權，這一點如何保障消費者權益，可能也要請公平會好好想一想。","我對未來的建議，應該要明定外送平台的抽成上限，目前國際上有很多先例，包括紐約、舊金山、芝加哥等城市，都已經限定每筆上限15%，並將之法制化，臺灣是不是也可以思考將之法制化呢？主委，你認同嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想是不是專案立法這個要很多面向去考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：我不是問你個人，我是問你公平會的立場，你覺得這樣適合嗎？好，或許這不是公平會的主管業務，但藉這個機會也呼籲相關單位應該著手去研究國際案例，並思考未來如何更有效地保障消費者。我們期許公平會的裁決會達到多贏的結果，就是店家有生意、消費者權益有保護、外送員薪水有保障，平台能夠維持營運，本案的審議進度請公平會須定時公告，並以書面回復本席，謝謝。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Panda的這個合併案呢是會影響全臺上千萬人的案件其中包括上千萬的"},{"start":57.069,"end":77.606,"text":"上千萬人的消費市場15萬人左右的勞動市場以及全台超過六成的餐飲業者都會受到影響那這個和平和平案請問你們的裁決就是攸關上千萬人權益的裁決請問主委你會不會覺得有壓力的"},{"start":79.815,"end":107.065,"text":"這個案子會明顯的改變市場結構我們在審慎在評估這個案件的時候會審慎評估那本席要問公平會自創會至今有禁止過哪些案件結合我們禁止過譬如說統一要跟唯利結合還有錢貴好樂迪還有一些有限電視系統的結合那之前為什麼會禁止這些事業結合呢"},{"start":108.168,"end":131.836,"text":"我想當時的這個禁止結合的理由應該有他根據法令的規定做出的一個判斷就是說對於這一次跟之前的這幾個這個和平案本席認為其關鍵是在於市佔率的界定這也是過去公平會禁止結合的主要原因主委認同嗎?"},{"start":134.972,"end":155.912,"text":"我們在這個審查的時候先界定市場,所以當時這些案子的這個審查應該是根據當時的內容。重點就是界定市場,但是公平會在這個月的14號的時候表示兩大外送平台合併會有八成的市佔率,本席想請教這八成是如何推估而來?"},{"start":157.021,"end":157.181,"text":"張嘉郡"},{"start":174.11,"end":182.877,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）並備質詢．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）並備質詢．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）並備質詢．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":203.772,"end":204.052,"text":"主委認同嗎?"},{"start":231.904,"end":233.845,"text":"公平會本席在這裡要求公平會的裁決必須保障餐飲"},{"start":260.239,"end":264.443,"text":"但我們都知道獨佔本身並非構成禁止結合的要件對吧?"},{"start":278.526,"end":293.754,"text":"獨佔本身是一個事實那我們再進一步判說獨佔事業有什麼樣的行為是不是違反公平交易法的一個規定我們都知道說Uber Eats跟Full Panda彼此就是最大的競爭者那目前呢假設他們結合的話餐飲業者會擔心被漲價外送員會擔心被砍薪而且結合之後消費者是毫無溢價能力那這兩大平台的結合將會造成"},{"start":307.782,"end":336.988,"text":"台灣餐飲業上下游的浩劫以前有一個這個廣告台詞是一家烤肉萬家香現在這兩大平台的結合可能會變成一家烤肉萬家哭因此本席認為公平會的裁決必須審慎考慮幾個面向第一就是要保障餐飲業者不會因為結合而必須付出更高的經營成本那兩個外送平台現在的抽成大概是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":338.292,"end":367.515,"text":"三十到四十不等了。沒錯。差不多三十二到三十八趴之間。那一般的餐飲業者扣除掉食材成本、人事成本、電租等等。中間店家的貨率大概是二十五趴。但是被外送平台抽了三十二至三十八趴之後,店家幾乎是毫無利潤。那其實我們餐飲業者也都是經營得非常辛苦,尤其現在又這個漲店價。不得已的話,他也只好漲價。"},{"start":367.995,"end":370.938,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）"},{"start":383.012,"end":383.352,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具"},{"start":398.869,"end":410.199,"text":"我同意就是說將來併購方的交易相對人您提到的外送員餐廳或是消費者他們的這個溢價能力這些我們都會考量在裡面好這一點要拜託主委一定要審慎的來協助這些採引業者還有這個"},{"start":415.643,"end":416.203,"text":"二、審查．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":443.377,"end":463.942,"text":"舊金山、芝加哥等城市都已經限定每筆上限15%,並將之法制化。台灣是不是也可以思考將之法制化的?主委你認同嗎?我想是不是專案立法這個要很多面向去考量。我問你個人,我問你公平會的立場。你覺得這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":468.724,"end":493.063,"text":"或許這不是公平會的主管業務但藉這個機會也呼籲相關單位應該著手去研究國際案例並思考未來如何更有效的保障消費者我們期許公平會的裁決會達到多贏的結果就是店家有生意消費者的權益有保護外送員的薪水有保障那平台能夠維持營運"},{"start":495.827,"end":501.259,"text":"本案的審議進度請公平會須定時公告並以書面回覆本席。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453aae24a123722cc1c9f2fcaa3dc194f7380469f81d004428392bee04615099ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:38:42 - 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後因為事實上職災保險現在到了7就可以投保了,只要到iBON他掉下去了,然後就去找的時候就顧主面幫他保。"},{"start":331.345,"end":331.726,"text":"我們再下一項"},{"start":343.642,"end":370.103,"text":"我們目前我們就講移工的部分我們知道要開放一萬五千名那我們怕就是說我們未來會不會擠壓到我們原住民的就業因為我們大部分也從事勞動這些重工業的工作比如說營建或工程你營建這麼多我們的移工的時候會不會相對的就壓縮了我們的工作的權利要怎麼來預防怎麼來跟我們原住民的勞工來解釋"},{"start":371.713,"end":384.387,"text":"是,各位報告我們對原住民勞工的就業保障一定放在最優先所以其實在這個引進移工前我們會確保他招募這個國內的招募到一定比例"},{"start":386.244,"end":410.2,"text":"我請署長可你回覆一下好嗎跟委員報告這個我們在開放但是我們跟內政部會在整個程序當中一定會落實對國內的招募的一個部分要優先來試驗對沒有錯可是我還是會聽到很多老公朋友說外老朋友把我的工作權拿走了所以我想說這個部分你一定要去想辦法杜絕或者說避免可以嗎好這位委員這我們會特別來點"},{"start":410.52,"end":410.76,"text":"月二天一次會議"}]}},{"id":"152869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453d73c8a7c30988b1abde51848baade82980469f81d004428334d5112c71ed9d465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:17:28 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09:31:26","影片長度":"00:13:58","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":838,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:31:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:17:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時17分）主席，我們是不是請法務部次長。"],["主席：請法務部次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝主席，委員早！"],["沈委員發惠：徐次長早！今天我們委員會以很快的速度來排審目前民間大家最關心的，有關於行政院所推出打詐四法其中最重要清源的一個防制機制，就是洗錢防制法。行政院通過打詐四法，我們是要讓民眾知道，在目前的法制基礎之下，我們對於打擊詐騙的決心，因此我們這四法裡面除了詐欺犯罪防制條例這樣一個清源的防制之外，另外，就資通的部分，有通訊保障及監察法，還有科技偵查及保障法，接下來最重要的，剛剛講的是下游的溯源，真正清源的是洗錢防制法。就洗錢防制法，目前這些相關的漏洞，我們必須要補足，沒有補足的話，我們現在所進行的這些打擊詐騙事實上都在這個部分會有問題。","剛才我也聽次長報告我們這次洗錢防制法的整個修正重點，我看一個是第六條的修正，就是相關的這些入刑化，就是提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務的如果未完成法遵登記或者是沒有完成服務能量登錄的話，還有境外公司必須要落地登記，否則，如果沒有完成這個，而執行相關業務，就入刑化，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：再來是第二十條新增特殊洗錢犯罪態樣，有關虛擬資產帳號、第三方支付這些犯罪工具，我們也訂定洗錢態樣的相關規範。雖然洗錢防制法是由法務部主管，但是我們發現在這次的修正上面，事實上，業務重點一個在金管會、一個在數發部，他們是真正執行的單位，對不對？次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：目前有關虛擬資產的部分是由金管會主管，第三方支付是由數發部主管，基本上整個修法的大方向，我是非常支持的，因為這目前確實是洗錢防制的一個大漏洞。但是我們來看看目前的修法，我覺得還有一些問題，除了今天所要修正的法條之外，還有幾個問題，包括業界現況，雖然這不是你們主管，但是要訂定的相關辦法，這部分可能要責成法務部請這些相關主管單位儘速訂定，因為這部法裡面有很多都要授權各相關主管機關訂定子法，這些子法完成，整個洗錢防制的法律架構才會完善。","就目前的修法方向，有關第六條第一項後段境外公司的落地問題，我個人對於目前的法條有一些不太明瞭的地方要就教次長，目前按照第六條第一項後段的規定，境外設立之提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務之事業或人員非依公司法辦理公司或分公司設立登記，並完成洗錢防制法遵聲明或第三方支付服務能量登錄，否則不得在國內提供虛擬資產服務，這是我們的要件。其法律效果規定在第四項，違反第一項之規定處二年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新臺幣五百萬以下之罰金。次長，如果這些境外設立的公司在臺灣沒有登記、登錄卻執行相關業務，它的公司或分公司都沒有落地，我們要怎麼樣對它執行第六條第四款之規定呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是會處罰行為人，因為它還沒有做公司登記，如果它在中華民國境內有這些違法行為，不至於沒有人在這裡卻有這些行為，所以行為人責任還是會……"],["沈委員發惠：如果在網路上面呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：網路上的話，目前……"],["沈委員發惠：因為你一定要在臺灣落地才能夠執行，但是它就是沒有登記、沒有落地，我們對這個公司有管轄權嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：現在金管會對於特許行業相關法令規定並沒有針對未經金管會許可的境外業者，在我國境內提供相關活動的定義和禁止規定。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我現在就是針對要修正的第六條後段，境外設立公司沒有辦理落地的情況，我們要怎麼處罰它？要處罰誰？怎麼處罰？第六條第四項的法律效果要怎麼執行？"],["徐次長錫祥：我剛才有特別提到，如果他人有來境內……"],["沈委員發惠：如果沒有呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個就變成是一個事實的問題，我們……"],["沈委員發惠：這就是一個漏洞，所以在相關的法律效果上面，我們應該在網路上能夠遮蔽或禁止……"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這個是另外一個法律的問題，我們採取遮蔽或把它下架，是為了防止它犯罪所做的，跟這個又不太一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：因為我看這一條就是有這個疑慮、疑問，你要怎麼對這個境外公司執行法律效果？這個部分請法務部研議。我現在要請金管會和數發部，次長先請回。"],["主席：請金管會、數發部。"],["沈委員發惠：動作快一點！"],["主席：沒關係，再加1分鐘。"],["黃組長錫和：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：我先請教金管會，有關虛擬資產交易平臺、VASP交易平臺，目前通貨平臺業者有幾家？"],["黃組長錫和：目前完成法遵聲明的業者一共有25家。"],["沈委員發惠：25家都已經完成法遵聲明，還沒有完成法遵聲明的有多少？"],["黃組長錫和：這部分我們沒有詳細的統計，但是跟我們申請的境外業者有六十幾家。"],["沈委員發惠：目前境外業者在臺灣有執行業務的有幾家？"],["黃組長錫和：目前我們查獲7家有廣告招攬行為。"],["沈委員發惠：7家有廣告招攬行為。"],["黃組長錫和：我們都已經移送給法務部。"],["沈委員發惠：個人幣商的部分呢？你們目前怎麼樣管制？"],["黃組長錫和：個人幣商的部分如果按照現有的法制，他們還是必須要按照營業登記法和稅籍登記的部分去做登記。"],["沈委員發惠：目前針對虛擬資產管理的部分，我們還沒有虛擬資產管理專法，這部分目前是依照10大原則，對不對？"],["黃組長錫和：對，我們有訂定一個指導原則。"],["沈委員發惠：你們有訂定一個10大指導原則。再請問數發部，剛才是關於虛擬資產的部分，第三方支付的部分是由數發部主管，對不對？"],["林副署長俊秀：是。"],["沈委員發惠：就數發部的瞭解，目前在經濟部辦理公司登記業務當中包括第三方支付的有幾家？"],["林副署長俊秀：一萬四千多家。"],["沈委員發惠：這一萬四千多家裡面實收資本額是零的有幾家？你們有沒有瞭解？"],["林副署長俊秀：這我們要查一下。"],["沈委員發惠：有八千多家，公司登記都有第三方支付業務，但是根本就沒有在執行第三方支付業務有八千多家，目前實際上經營第三方支付服務的公司行號其實不到100家，到目前為止，這不到100家業者中有申請能量登錄的有幾家？"],["林副署長俊秀：有81家。"],["沈委員發惠：現在每天付款的日平均額超過10億元的有幾家？"],["林副署長俊秀：7家。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上，這7家就納入由金管會納管？"],["林副署長俊秀：不是，20億以上才會由金管會。"],["沈委員發惠：20億以上必須要納入由金管會納管。有關虛擬資產和第三方支付的部分，請問金管會，今天修正草案第六條第二項規定，提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員辦理前項洗錢防制登記之申請條件、程序、撤銷或廢止，有關的相關辦法包括洗錢防制登記之申請條件、程序、撤銷或廢止、虛擬資產上下架，應遵行之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之，中央目的事業主管機關是誰？"],["黃組長錫和：就是金管會。"],["沈委員發惠：依照第六條第二項規定，我們必須要訂定相關辦法，目前有沒有相關辦法？"],["黃組長錫和：我們已經做委外研究，在授權條文通過之後，我們可以在6個月之內按照法制作業完成。"],["沈委員發惠：我現在看到的是剛剛講的十大原則，目前是用行政指導在做，這個位階實在是太低，你們儘快按照第六條第二項規定，相關的辦法應該要儘快來擬定，你們預計什麼時候會送虛擬資產專法？剛剛我們講的相關辦法，現在是行政指導原則的辦法，真正最終的處理方式還是必須應該要有相關的專法，你們大概什麼時候會完成？"],["黃組長錫和：專法我們也已經委外研究。"],["沈委員發惠：還在委外研究？"],["黃組長錫和：我們在9月底之前會提出行政報告的初稿。"],["沈委員發惠：9月底會提出初稿，你們預計什麼時候要送出草案？"],["黃組長錫和：我們在年底會完成委外的正式報告，至於那個……"],["沈委員發惠：年底完成的還是報告？"],["黃組長錫和：對。如果是專法的部分，昨天我們彭主委在財委會有答詢，會在明年提出來。"],["沈委員發惠：明年提出來啦？"],["黃組長錫和：對。"],["沈委員發惠：整個打詐系統，包括洗錢防制、包括虛擬資產的管理，整個都是配套的啦！絕對不是只有法務部的責任，好不好？以上。"],["黃組長錫和：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","接下來請謝委員龍介發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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告我們這次整個洗錢防制法整個修正的重點"},{"start":121.089,"end":139.148,"text":"我看大概就是一個是第六條的修正就是有關相關的這些入刑化就是把這個虛擬資產服務跟第三方支付的服務如果這個未完成法尊登記或者是這個第三方支付沒有完成能量登錄的話"},{"start":140.209,"end":166.627,"text":"還有近外公司必須要落地登記否則的話如果沒有完成執行相關業務我們就入刑化對不對再來大概就是第二十條新增特殊的洗錢犯罪的太陽有關虛擬資產帳號第三方支付這些犯罪工具我們也訂定相關的洗錢太陽的規範"},{"start":170.899,"end":194.667,"text":"那這個我大概但是因為齁雖然這個這個法規洗錢防制是由法務部主管但是事實上我們我們發現說在這一次的修訂修正上面事實上業務的重點事實上一個在經管會一個在訴法部了真正真正要執行這個對不對市長我目前目前這個這個大概大概一個一個有關這個這個"},{"start":197.932,"end":199.173,"text":"四）如經院會復議．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":218.171,"end":235.319,"text":"但是實際上在我們來看目前的這個修法我覺得還有幾個問題還有一些問題齁除了這個法條的我們今天所修正的之外齁還有幾個有關於這個包括現況業界的現況這不是你們主管但是有關的相關的要定定的有一些相關辦法齁"},{"start":236.58,"end":238.261,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":259.5,"end":274.421,"text":"我現在就目前的這個修法第六條的這個第一項後段的部分有關境外公司的這個落地問題這部分我個人是對於現在目前這個我們的法條上面有一些不太明瞭的地方來就交次長"},{"start":275.868,"end":296.866,"text":"目前我們這個規定按照這個第六條第一項的這個後段近外設立的這個提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務事業人員非依公司法辦理公司或者分公司的登記然後完成洗錢防制的這個法遵聲明或者是這個這個第三方支付的服務能量登錄要完成這個否則不得在國內提供虛擬資產服務"},{"start":304.242,"end":327.504,"text":"這是我們的要件。但是我們法律效果定在這個第四項。所以說違反第一項是規定除兩年以下有歧途刑、拘役或科或病科新台幣500萬以下的罰金。市長那他如果這些外國這些在境外設立的這些公司他在台灣如果沒有登記沒有登錄"},{"start":328.871,"end":356.472,"text":"然後他執行相關的業務他公司跟公司都沒有落地那我們要怎麼樣對他來執行這個第六條第四款之規定呢?我們還是會處罰行為人因為他還沒有做公司登記那今天他在我們中華民國境內有這些違法的行為不至於說沒有人在這裡有所以我們行為人責任...不過在網路上面呢"},{"start":358.895,"end":360.496,"text":"網路上的話目前我們說你一定要在台灣落地才能夠執行但是他就是沒有登記沒有落地啊"},{"start":371.551,"end":398.601,"text":"那我們對這個公司我們有管轄權嗎?現在經管會對於特許行業相關法令規定並沒有針對未經經管會許可的境外業者在我國境內提供相關活動的定義跟禁止規定所以我現在就針對這個我們現在要修正的第六條的後段這個境外設立公司沒有辦理落地的我們要怎麼處罰他?"},{"start":401.164,"end":422.21,"text":"如果...呃...處罰誰?怎麼處罰?我們這個第六條第四項的這個法律效果要怎麼樣...我剛才有特別聽到說如果他人是有來境內阿如果沒有呢?這個...這個就變成一個是一個事實的問題我們...對所以這就是一個漏洞啊?呃..."},{"start":424.795,"end":449.155,"text":"所以例如說例如說我們在相關的法律效果上面我們應該在網路上我們能夠去遮蔽或者去禁止禁止報告委員這個是另外一個法律的問題就是我們是用遮蔽的或把它下架的那是防止他犯罪所做的跟這一個又不太一樣因為我看這一條我就是有這個疑問就是說你要怎麼樣來"},{"start":453.678,"end":462.984,"text":"來對這個境外公司進行考慮效果是是好這部分請法務部這邊研議啦那我現在要請這個這個經管會經管會跟這個蘇發部來請經管會蘇發部好這個次長你先請回來動作快一點委員好沒關係再加一分鐘好"},{"start":484.552,"end":506.21,"text":"目前我先請教經管會有關目前虛擬資產的部分我們這個交易平台目前通貨平台業者有幾家目前就是完成法專聲明的業者一共有25家25家都已經完成法專聲明"},{"start":513.417,"end":534.811,"text":"這個沒有完成還沒有完成法證聲明的有多少這部分我們沒有詳細的統計但是跟我們申請的境外業者目前境外業者在台灣有在執行業務的幾家目前我們查獲是有7家有廣告招攬的行為有7家有廣告招攬的行為個人避傷的部分呢我們目前怎麼樣管制"},{"start":535.97,"end":536.951,"text":"我看是我們是依照這個十大原則對不對"},{"start":564.893,"end":580.587,"text":"對我們有定一個指導原則我們定一個這個指導原則啦十大指導原則啦齁好那我現在請問蘇發部剛才是這個虛擬資產的部分啦齁那第三方支付的部分是蘇發部管嘛對不對第三方支付目前"},{"start":581.889,"end":606.06,"text":"以你們蘇發部的了解經濟部目前有辦理這個公司登記他們公司登記的業務有包括第三方支付的有幾家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家這一萬四千多家裡面這個這個實收資本額是零的有幾家你們會不會了解這我們要查一下但是有八千多家啦"},{"start":607.489,"end":608.149,"text":"四）如經院會復議．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":622.745,"end":648.576,"text":"到目前為止這不到一百家已經業者有申請要能量登錄的有幾家?有八十一家有八十一家是不是?八十一家現在每天的付款年日平均額超過十億元的有幾家?"},{"start":652.977,"end":671.882,"text":"七家有七家七家這個這個七家他就事實上就就有金就納入有金管會來不是二十億以上才會有金管會二十億以上對二十億以上必須要納入這個有金管會金管會來來來來這個納管吼那這個好這個有"},{"start":678.12,"end":703.052,"text":"有關這個虛擬資產齁跟我們這個第三方支付的這個部分齁我看到我們這個目前這個提這個有關這個齁我先再請金管會啦齁這我們現在目前今天修法的齁第六條第二項我們提有有規定說提供虛擬資產服務之事業事業或人員齁辦理前項的前剛講前項的洗錢防制"},{"start":704.172,"end":705.233,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":725.891,"end":751.614,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關定資。中央目的主管機關是誰?就金管會。就金管會。我們目前這個進度我們依照這第六條第二項我們就是要必定相關辦法嗎?對。目前有沒有相關辦法?我們已經做偶爾研究。那我們可以在這個我們這個授權的這個條文通過之後我們可以在六個月之內按照法制作業完成。"},{"start":754.404,"end":770.068,"text":"我現在看到的是剛剛講的十大原則目前是用行政指導在做這個位階實在是太低你們盡快按照這個第六條第二項你們這個相關的辦法應該要盡快來擬定盡快來擬定然後這個虛擬資產的專法你們預計什麼時候"},{"start":776.824,"end":791.33,"text":"預計什麼時候會有專法?我們從剛剛講的這些相關的辦法現在從行政指導原則相關的辦法到真正的最終的處理方式還是必須應該要有相關的專法你們大概什麼時候會完成?"},{"start":792.026,"end":811.648,"text":"報告委員專訪我們也已經委外研究我們在9月份的9月底之前會提出我們的這個9月底會提出的初稿初稿那什麼時候你們預計什麼時候要要要這個這個這個送出草案我們在年底會完成那個就是正式委外的正式報告那至於那個年底完成了還是報告"},{"start":812.749,"end":835.193,"text":"對,但是如果說是專法的部分,昨天我們彭主委有在會有答詢是在會在明年提出來明年提出來啦對因為我們相關的我們這些有關的這個這個這個我們整個打詐的系統包括洗錢防制包括虛擬資產的管理這個整個都是配套的啦這絕對不是只有法務部的責任啦好不好好以上謝謝委員謝謝沈委員"}]}},{"id":"152868","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152868","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4537c545fd73dece601f1f99622ceb699a780469f81d004428328bce2618ac0fdaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:29:55 - 09:38:48","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":533,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:38:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:29:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時30分）謝謝主席。我想請公平會主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委早，今天我們特別針對「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告及質詢，這個議題很大，對消費者的影響也很大，可是我發現這是我收過最少的一個報告，就只有2頁，連1張都寫不滿，第2頁都寫不滿，這也表示這個問題確實非常棘手。我先請教主委，foodpanda是哪一國的公司？母公司，不知道？"],["李主任委員鎂：德國。"],["鄭委員正鈐：德國的公司嘛！那Uber Eats的母公司是？"],["李主任委員鎂：美國。"],["鄭委員正鈐：美國的嘛！所以其實這是兩家外資公司，競爭的市場在臺灣，這讓我想到另外一個很類似的個案，就是錢櫃跟好樂迪的案子，錢櫃跟好樂迪兩家都是臺灣的公司，而且都是公開發行的公司，請問這兩家公司當時公平會的決議後來有沒有被follow？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們當時並沒有核准他們的結合。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，那他們現在的情況怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在兩家分別在經營。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，兩家在經營，可是他們後面的股東結構其實幾乎是完全整合的情況，針對這個部分，我想沒關係，因為它就是一個市場經濟的狀態。那我們現在來看foodpanda跟Uber Eats的狀態，因為他們其實是兩家外國的公司，雖然之前很多人都以為foodpanda是大陸公司，可是其實它不是，它是德國公司，這我剛剛也特別提到。","針對這個部分我們就來思考幾個問題，根據行政院消保處的統計，去年消費者糾紛有七萬八千多件，比前一年多了八千多件，其中有多少是跟外送平台有關？主委知不知道？根據消保處這邊的資料，我想特別提到的狀態就是，因為跟外送平台有關的已經變成第二類，在運輸類當中非常的多，創十年的新高。在這麼多的消費糾紛當中，行政院消保處今天有來嘛，我發現消保處對這部分其實也沒有辦法有很好的回應。我們看到在消保處針對外送平台的回應報告當中，就直接寫到有關外送平台，消保處在111年、112年多次召開指定中央目的事業主管機關之研商及協調會議，鑑於外送平台涉及面向多元且營運型態與法律關係又較為複雜……然後也請外交部去瞭解其他國家的狀態。從112年6月到現在，我不知道這個報告已經出來了沒有？因為它這裡面的報告基本上是一個沒有結果的報告，是不是可以請消保處說明？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：委員好。跟委員報告，我們透過外交部大概蒐集了十一個國家的資料，我們的確是整理好了這些國家的資料，但是資料非常眾多，其實我們內部處裡面也開會了，大概……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們已經完善了消費者保護機制了嗎？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：還沒有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還沒有嘛！"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為這個東西要往下講很長，這個時間我先空下來，到時候請給本席一個完整的報告，然後也儘快提供給公平會。我在想消保處如果這麼久都還在處理資料蒐集的話，我也不知道公平會接下來怎麼去審foodpanda和Uber Eats這邊的狀態。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來我想針對這次的併購案當中，很清楚的是其實它會跟業者有關、跟外送員有關，同時也跟消費者有關，在這麼多的關聯當中，剛剛委員也都有提到相關的問題，可是我在這邊要特別提到，針對外送員的部分，之前雙北都已經提到了勞務契約，我在想之後公平會在審這個合併案的時候，請務必一定要確保外送員的勞動條件，所以我們希望在審查的過程當中，能夠把勞動部拉進來，然後能夠把整個外送員的勞務契約變成附帶條件重要的部分，主委，這個部分可不可以先承諾？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們在整個審查過程會跟相關機關，包括消保會、勞動部一起來徵詢他們的意見並交換意見。"],["鄭委員正鈐：除了這個部分之外，還有另外一個地方就是針對整個業者的部分，我們來看一下這個部分，在目前含廣告曝光的外送服務當中，基本上目前這兩家都在32%到38%之間，他們的訂單交易抽成都在百分之三十幾，坦白說已經很高了，我在想這個部分對於目前的物價肯定是有推波助瀾的效果，所以當他們合併之後，我覺得很容易造成獨占市場的情況，也很容易造成相關物價的持續推動，所以本席希望在這樣子的審議過程當中，也能夠把他們的抽成比例當作附帶條件之一。到時候在整個合併過程當中，能夠儘可能確保消費者最後的狀態，還有就是業者最後的成本考量，這部分可不可以先承諾一下？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們在審查過程中，對於併購方以後的交易相對人，包括餐廳、消費者以及外送員，將來彼此之間的談判能力都會通盤去考量。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我再提一個狀態，因為這兩家公司都是國外的公司，目前foodpanda在東南亞也已經被GRAB給買掉了。我想問一個情況，如果公平會不允許他們併購，可是到最後foodpanda它自己退出市場，當foodpanda自動退出市場的時候，也許他們在私底下跟Uber Eats有什麼樣的交易，它也不是公開發行公司，它直接退出市場，這個市場就拱手讓給了Uber Eats，在這種狀態之下，公平會有沒有其他的作法？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看將來整個市場的競爭狀況，才能夠依事實來判斷。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我最後要特別提到，因為我看到在相關法令第七條、第八條、第九條當中，感覺好像有一個限制，包括對於獨占的定義，對於獨占的行為以及不能夠做的，可是我發現它都很空，其實整個都是模糊的，所以針對公平會對於這兩家大的外送平台他們後續的發展能夠有怎麼樣的影響，其實本席是非常的擔心，可是也希望公平會還是能夠在不可為的情況之下，盡最大的努力去保障臺灣的消費者，還有外送員跟業者這三者權益的平衡，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來請張嘉郡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Eats母公司是美國的嗎?所以其實是兩家外資的公司那競爭的市場在台灣他讓我想到另外一個很類似的個案就是錢櫃跟好樂迪的案子"},{"start":71.357,"end":74.721,"text":"請問他們這兩家公司當時公平會的決議後來有沒有被follow?我們當時並沒有核准他們的結合。那他們現在的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":93.227,"end":102.014,"text":"兩邊在經營可是他們後面的股東結構其實幾乎是完全整合的一個情況那我想說這個部分因為他就是一個市場經濟的狀態那我們現在來看這個"},{"start":106.277,"end":108.098,"text":"二、審查．一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具"},{"start":124.585,"end":124.966,"text":"主委,知不知道?"},{"start":148.03,"end":170.877,"text":"OK這蕭寶處這邊的一個資料啦齁那我這邊想特別提到的一個狀態就是齁因為在跟外送平台有關的已經變成第二類齁在運輸類當中非常的多創十年的一個新高創十年的新高那在這麼多的一個那個消費糾紛當中的時候其實我發現我們蕭寶處行政院蕭寶處今天有來嘛齁"},{"start":175.831,"end":194.441,"text":"我們消保處對於這部分的時候其實也沒有辦法有一個很好的一個回應我們看到了整個消保處針對外送平台的一個回應報告當中的時候就直接寫到有關外送平台就是消保處在111年、112年多次召開"},{"start":195.822,"end":219.872,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關研商及協調會議那麼介於外送平台是以多面向、多元且營業形態法律關係都較為複雜然後點點點之後然後也請外交部去瞭解其他國家的狀態從112年6月到現在我不知道這個報告已經出來了沒有因為它這裡面的一個報告基本上是一個沒有結果的報告蕭保處"},{"start":230.649,"end":231.87,"text":"您們已經完善了消費者保護機制了嗎?還沒有"},{"start":250.902,"end":251.002,"text":"主席"},{"start":280.902,"end":283.385,"text":"二）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）"},{"start":300.402,"end":323.681,"text":"之後公平會在審這個合併案的時候請務必一定要確保就是外送員的一個勞動條件所以我們希望說在審的過程當中的時候能夠把勞動部拉進來然後能夠把整個外送員他們的勞務契約變成附帶條件重要的部分主委這個部分可不可以先承諾"},{"start":324.321,"end":337.975,"text":"我想我們在整個審查的過程會跟相關機關包括消保會、勞動部一起來徵詢他們的意見、交換意見除了這個部分之外的時候還有另外一個地方就是針對整個"},{"start":340.558,"end":353.914,"text":"整個業者的一個部分我們來看一下部分目前整個含廣告曝光的外送服務當中的時候基本上目前這兩家都在32到38%之間"},{"start":356.397,"end":358.399,"text":"二（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":381.658,"end":383.699,"text":"本院委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具"},{"start":396.988,"end":397.868,"text":"二、審查（一（本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具"},{"start":416.997,"end":435.558,"text":"我想我們在審查過程中對於併購方以後的交易相對人包括餐廳、消費者以及外送員將來彼此之間的談判能力都會通盤去考量主委我再提一個狀態因為目前這兩家公司都是國外的公司"},{"start":436.779,"end":450.235,"text":"目前富盆塔在東南亞也已經被Grabber把它給買掉了。我想問一個情況,就是說如果公平會不允許他們併購,可是富盆塔到最後他自己退出市場,"},{"start":451.476,"end":452.757,"text":"一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":481.36,"end":499.341,"text":"就是相關法令我們的第七條第八條第九條當中的時候寫的感覺是很感覺好像有一個限制對於獨佔的定義然後對於獨佔的行為不能夠做的可是我發現其實它都很空而且整個其實是模糊的"},{"start":500.121,"end":527.909,"text":"所以我對於公平會對於這個兩家大的外送平台他們後續的發展能夠有怎麼樣的影響其實本席是非常的擔心可是也希望公平會還是能夠在不可為的情況之下盡最大的努力去保障台灣的消費者還有就是外送員跟業者這三者的一個權益的一個平衡好不好是的"},{"start":530.583,"end":530.986,"text":"謝謝鄭正鈴前委員"}]}},{"id":"152867","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152867","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4539c558370595cf14a9f2fcaa3dc194f7380469f81d00442832d6590a054ec0c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:26:18 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09:38:36","影片長度":"00:12:18","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":738,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:38:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:26:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":282,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時26分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家早安、大家好。我也請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：何部長，首先恭喜您，也很謝謝昨天你有到我辦公室，我們一起交流了很多議題，昨天非常非常多委員會也有稍微提到一點國會改革、藐視國會，也有人問了吃早餐等等，這都不是本席要問的，本席其實要為您表達是很敬佩，因為這是您12年前曾經說過的。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：所以部長12年前參與一個改造國會終結亂象的研討會，曾經說過現在國會最大的問題是被壓抑，弱化得跟行政院立法局一樣，可是我們今天看到的是執政黨不斷想盡方法地阻撓議事進行，所以我也很想知道部長您當時……因為剛剛林月琴委員、陳昭姿委員也很關心您是工運人士出身，可是後來可能有一些爭議，因此現在很多民團也對您就任有一些不同的看法，本席也很想知道您是不是還令我欽佩，支持12年前你對於國會改革的支持呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，跟您報告，12年前那個時候我還是立法院的助理，那時候我就是還在總召的辦公室擔任助理，我受邀民間的智庫基金會來講國會改革的議題……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您的意思是說這可能也不是您心中真正的想法，是因為當時助理的角色必須如此？"],["何部長佩珊：喔，不，是我當時的想法沒有錯，可是……"],["陳委員菁徽：現在已經……"],["何部長佩珊：可是我想當然我們時代變遷，我們在不同的位置上我們必須有不同的思考啦！所以這一點，我不會去否認我過去的想法，可是現在的……我想您也應該能夠體諒……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看下一張，昨天也有非常多委員會有跟官員們互相交流有關於未來假使有藐視國會罪這件事情，我們應該要怎麼樣去定義它，但本席絕對不會去質詢比如說吃早餐這樣子的議題，不過這是之前林淑芬委員在第9屆的時候，跟您在這個委員會、這個場地所進行的爭執，當時林淑芬委員說你藐視國會，現在他是11屆的委員，所以本席很希望我們這個委員會在這個會期，還有您在上任的時間都還是可以維持平靜，我們也是看一下當時的影片。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：好，當天因為主席、官員、委員全部都是同黨，所以就不便處理，否則當時林委員很堅持您是藐視國會，我想請部長承諾是不是在上任期間都可以保持理性面對，不要再發生類似第9屆的對嗆事件了？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，您放心，當然一定是這樣，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為林淑芬委員還在。"],["何部長佩珊：我跟他也非常好，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：這次賴總統在宣誓就職的時候，一個很大的重點是我們全國勞工關心的，他說只要政府在，勞保絕對不會倒，結果隔天勞保局經過一次的精算報告指出，2023年底勞保基金精算負債13兆465億元，潛藏負債也高達12兆872億元，報告更指出若不改革，勞保基金2028年將會破產。我們2024年編列1,200億公務預算挹注基金，統計累積到2024年已經編列2,670億元，可是依照目前的財政情況，1,500億元已經是極限了。再來，撥補的方式只是治標不治本，這個你也同意嘛？昨天我們有交流一下，所以我想請問民進黨勞保改革喊了八年，年金改革也已經砍完了，可是攸關千萬勞工的勞保改革，我們什麼時候會啟動？你在這邊可以給人民一個答案嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我剛剛在業務報告還有媒體回答的時候已經講得很清楚，撥補就是改革，我們已經進行改革四年了，而且改革到現在，基金水位創新高，目前勞保財務相對穩健，絕對沒有破產的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：你在昨天交流的時候有講到一個狀況，只要不要所有的人一起去提領……"],["何部長佩珊：是，這就是所謂的潛藏負債的定義，我想一般社會大眾不是很瞭解潛藏負債的意思，潛藏負債不是負債，它是可能發生的給付責任而已。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們很難預期，因為可能有新興的疫情，可能也會有突發狀況，我們很難去保證，您也不可能保證不會有全部的人同時去提領的狀況，是吧？"],["何部長佩珊：實務上真的不可能這樣發生，這是真的，絕對不可能，因為我們保勞保有1,050萬人，不可能1,050萬人全部都在同一個時間去領。"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂，只要不要大家同時提領就絕對不會破產，所以你現在的意思是撥補也是改革的一環？"],["何部長佩珊：是、是。"],["陳委員菁徽：你還會有除了撥補以外的其他改革作法嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們努力來開源，比如增加投資的績效，我們提高費率，我們依法其實還有費率上的空間。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於少子女化，昨天您來交流的時候說很多業務其實是衛福部的業務，但本席要告訴你，光是13項的主要工作中，勞動部就占7項，包括準公共機制、2歲以上育兒津貼、彈性工時、推廣新型態職場托育、提升雇主辦理托兒措施、加強產業聚落提供托兒服務還有促進哺（集）乳室等等。我想請教一下部長，因為少子女化已經是刻不容緩的問題，明年度我們可能會推出我國少子女化對策計畫2.0，勞動部可以有哪些多出來的新政策紅利嗎？因為您希望民間機構也可以一起參與開辦彈性育兒、育兒工時等等，這些真的要給人家誘因，你沒有給人家誘因的話，誰要做這件事情？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，目前我們正在試辦育嬰留停彈性化，這是一個很重要的概念，未來你可能可以用小時或是一天去請，而不是一個塊狀一定要請那麼久，也可以方便他回到職場，我們希望能把它進一步落實，不是只有試辦而已，希望倡導更多企業來參與。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這是主要的，你有沒有其他多出來的政策紅利要再透露一下呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我想少子女化的問題很複雜，真的不是勞動部一個部會能夠解決，其實它是跨部會要處理的，所以未來我會努力跟衛福部一起來研議。"],["陳委員菁徽：還有教育部。"],["何部長佩珊：對，還有教育部。"],["陳委員菁徽：2012年發生勞動基金弊案，經過十年後，2022年勞動部發出官方訊息說追回7,157萬元不法所得，但是至今還有陳姓經理人及其前所屬投信的三點九億餘元尚未追回，請問你對於這個3.9億元、我們全國人民的錢，就任以後追討的規劃為何呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這讓基金局的蘇局長答復。"],["蘇局長郁卿：委員好。有關您剛所提到的個案，我們已經上訴到最高法院，最高法院也已經判決退回到高等法院再重新審查，目前我們正在高院審查中，這個案子的其他部分，我們都已經追回了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，希望在這四年的任期，我們可以把這3.9億元追回。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是。"],["陳委員菁徽：行政院有修正中央廉政委員會設置要點，這是行政院長親自主持的，比如經濟部長、內政部長、交通部長、NCC、教育部長幾乎都是構成機關之一，為什麼勞動部被排除在外？經過我們剛剛談的弊案，勞動部不是應該也要參加中央廉政委員會的組織架構當中嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這點我倒真的謝謝委員提醒我，我還不大瞭解，可以容我向行政院瞭解一下狀況再來回答您嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：您可以在原則上同意我，您應該會申請勞動部也一起加入吧？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我來研究處理，然後跟您報告，好嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。最後，我們講到您是工運人士出身，但後來有一些勞團認為您是站在資方的立場，我也想請教你，除了「五缺」缺地、缺電、缺水、缺工、缺才，請問勞動部對於企業五缺，未來最重要的政策走向是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我想比較重要的是我們先開發本土的勞動力，尤其我們婦女的勞參率偏低，還有中高齡，這部分我們優先來處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們給您一個建議，其實剛剛很多委員也已經提到了，勞工最在乎的是缺錢，所以絕對的低薪普遍化如果繼續下去會習慣成自然。根據112年主計總處統計，有408萬人的月薪不超過4.3萬元，令人無法理解的是世界最有錢的排名，臺灣居然人均所得是230萬元，是世界第12名，所以勞動部最大的任務希望可以納入幫我們的貧富差距縮短，因為目前正在持續擴大中。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：除了性別還有低薪的窘境，我希望勞動部可不可以針對就業服務法進行大修，在一個月內將修法的方向提供給我們參考呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，就業服務法確實應該要全盤檢視，不過跟您報告，就業服務法也是一個大工程，容我有時間好好跟您報告，好嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們未來會繼續追這個議題，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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art":338.251,"end":357.241,"text":"跟我演報告,我剛剛在業務報告還有那個媒體回答的時候已經講得很清楚,就是說波普也就是改革,我們已經進行改革4年了而且改革到現在基金水位創新高目前老闆財務相對穩健"},{"start":359.102,"end":366.291,"text":"你昨天交流的時候有講到一個狀況,就是只要不要所有的人一起去提領是,這就是所謂的潛藏負債的定義啦我想一般社會大眾不是很了解潛藏負債的意思潛藏負債不是負債"},{"start":377.744,"end":389.777,"text":"我們很難預期因為可能也有新興的疫情可能也會有突發狀況我們很難去保證您也不可能去保證說不會有全部的人同時去提領的狀況是吧"},{"start":391.559,"end":413.511,"text":"就是實務上真的是不可能這樣發生的,這是真的,你絕對不可能因為這是我們寶寶寶有1050萬人,不可能1050萬人全部都在同一個時間距離所以我們現在你的意思是說波普也是改革的一環是是是是是但你還會有除了波普以外的其他改革做法嗎我們努力來開源啦"},{"start":415.012,"end":415.192,"text":"好,我們下一張"},{"start":425.798,"end":453.784,"text":"這個小子女話昨天您來交流的時候說很多的業務其實是衛福部的業務但其實啦這邊要告訴您光是13項的主要工作中勞動部就佔了7項包括準公共機制兩歲以上月的津貼彈性工時推廣新型態的職場托育提升雇主辦理托兒措施加強產業聚落提供托兒服務還有促進這個補給入室啊等等的"},{"start":454.824,"end":482.818,"text":"我想要請教一下部長因為小子女化這個已經是刻不容緩的問題我明年度我們可能會推出我國小子女化對策計畫2.0勞動部可以有哪些新的多出來的政策紅利嗎因為您在講這些希望民間機構也可以一起參與開辦彈性育兒育兒工時等等的這些真的是要給人家誘因啊你沒有給人家誘因的話誰要做這件事情"},{"start":483.798,"end":512.328,"text":"是委員就是目前我們正在事辦御殷留庭彈性話對那麼這個是一個很重要的概念就是未來你可能可以用一用小時去請或是一天去請這樣子而不是一個快狀一定要請那麼久也可以方便他回到職場我們希望能夠把它進一步落實不是只有事辦而已那麼希望可以倡導更多企業的待遇這個是您的主要那其他的你有沒有多出來的政策紅利要再"},{"start":513.448,"end":513.749,"text":"下一張下一張"},{"start":532.59,"end":557.871,"text":"2012年發生的這個勞動基金弊案經過10年後2022年勞動部發出了官方訊息說追回7157萬元不罰所得但是至今還有陳姓經理人還有前所屬的頭姓3.9億餘元目前尚未追回請問你就任之後對於這個3.9億元我們全國人民的錢就任以後追討的規劃為何呢"},{"start":559.914,"end":561.058,"text":"我讓基金局的數據長來答覆"},{"start":562.659,"end":590.106,"text":"委員好就有關您剛剛所提到的個案我們已經上訴到最高法院最高法院也有判已經有退回到高等法院再重新來審查目前我們正在高院審查中那我們這個案子其他的部分我們都已經追回了希望這4年的任期我們可以把這3.9億人追回是是是好但是呢我們看一下下一頁行政院有修正了中央廉政委員會設置要點"},{"start":591.946,"end":607.364,"text":"好這個是行政院長親自主持的比如經濟部長、內政部長、交通部長、NCC、教育部長幾乎都是構成機關之一為什麼勞動部會被排除在外經過我們剛剛的弊案不是很應該勞動部也要參加中央廉政委員會的組織架構當中嗎"},{"start":610.582,"end":611.482,"text":"好,我來研究處理,然後跟您報告好嗎?好,謝謝,下一張"},{"start":633.803,"end":654.65,"text":"最後我們來講到您是供應人士出身的但是這個後來都有一些勞團認為您是站在資方的立場我也想請教您除了五缺缺地缺電缺水缺工缺財請問勞動部對於企業五缺未來的政策走向最重要的是什麼"},{"start":656.506,"end":674.328,"text":"我會想比較重要的是我們先開發本土的勞動力尤其我們婦女的勞參率還偏低還有中高齡這個部分我們先優先來處理最後一張我們給您一個建議其實剛剛很多委員也已經提到了勞工最在乎的是缺錢"},{"start":675.74,"end":684.489,"text":"所以這絕對的低薪普遍化如果繼續下去會習慣陳自然根據112年組計總數統計有408萬人月薪是不超過4.3萬元令人無法理解的是"},{"start":692.877,"end":720.913,"text":"世界最有錢的排名台灣居然人均所得是230萬元是世界第12名所以勞動部最大的任務也希望可以納入幫我們的貧富差距縮短因為他目前正在持續的擴大中所以除了性別還有低薪的這個窘境我都希望勞動部可不可以針對就業服務法進行大修把一個月內將修法的方向提供給我們參考呢"},{"start":722.706,"end":722.726,"text":"謝謝陳菁"}]}},{"id":"152866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152866","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45386f3ba71591793d15d1368e7b3a1940e80469f81d00442830d1fb675c659de675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:22:20 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09:36:11","影片長度":"00:13:51","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":831,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:36:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:22:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":94,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時22分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請吳誠文主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委非常有拼勁，昨天帶著新任團隊一字排開跟媒體見面會，也誇下海口，說3個月要做出有感的成績……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，是規劃，會宣布規劃，不是成績。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是做出，是規劃要做有感的政策，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還正想要稱讚您，因為現在敢誇下海口的政務官不多了，沒想到你連讓人稱讚的機會都不給我。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會把方案推出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，把方案推出來。什麼樣的部分是認為之前沒有做好或沒有做足的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：之前比較照顧大型的企業，我們將來會依照賴總統的指示，一定要均衡，所有的產業我們希望都能夠受惠於臺灣高科技的實力。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以之前有一些中小企業比較沒有受惠到，你講說要用數位轉型的計畫，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：嗯。"],["洪委員孟楷：有數位轉型的計畫，也有跨部會的方案，就代表過去數位科技運用在中小企業上是比較薄弱的，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：過去比較小，但這是市場機制，我們現在就是借助政府的力量來協助、彌補市場機制的不足。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以你的方向是會以補助的方式、引導的方式，還是政策導向的方式？"],["吳主任委員誠文：兩個都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：會以怎麼樣的方式？"],["吳主任委員誠文：兩個都有。我們希望在學界由國科會來補助，在業界由經濟部來補助，我們也會配合教育部來修正，在學制的發展上面鼓勵教授帶著學生也可以做這些事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，剛剛你有講到一個是國科會，是學界的部分？"],["吳主任委員誠文：學界的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：學界的部分是國科會，那產業界的部分由經濟部，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：由經濟部，我們會協調經濟部共同來執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，協調經濟部共同執行，這又涉及本席馬上要問的另外一個問題。你自己也有透露，整個團隊裡面，現在外交部林佳龍部長也問何時可以一起喝咖啡，要討論如何用科技協助友邦；經濟部長也提出臺灣要到海外設晶片園區的想法，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一點還在構想，還在討論當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：還在構想，因為從媒體看到是您講出來的。既然你現在跟經濟部長有這個talk，說海外設晶片園區，請教到底是到友邦，還是非友邦？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有講晶片園區。其實產業非常多元，當然，也不一定是友邦，只要跟臺灣有比較友好的關係存在，不會對我們有敵對的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不限於友邦，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，不限有邦交。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。另外，大家現在在討論AI，賴清德政府上任的時候就已經講AI內閣團隊，剛剛柯志恩委員也講現在言必稱AI，所有的事情、所有的計畫、所有的方案沒有在前面掛AI兩個字，好像就落後了，請教，我們心心念念的AI人工智慧基本法在今年可以推出嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們規劃中是今年會推出，我們希望在年底之前一定會做到。"],["洪委員孟楷：「一定會做到」是指送到行政院……"],["吳主任委員誠文：送到行政院。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是行政院可以推出版本給立法院審議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會負責的就是要送到行政院。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前的方向呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前的方向……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為本席心心念念……我們幾位委員在立法院已經有AI人工智慧基本法草案出來，當然，大家也是希望能夠排審，最主要就是院版要出來，大家可以針對這個議題去做討論。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在廣泛地諮詢各界的意見，包含學界、業界、民間。"],["洪委員孟楷：在國科會的版本出來之前，我相信應該也會有諮詢公聽會或相關的意見……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠讓大家看到一個雛型？既然你講說年底一定會出來，什麼時候能夠有一個雛型，至少讓大家知道你的方向？以及之前本席也問過前任主委，到底我們的方向是什麼？是要比較走向美、日兩國這種相對比較開放的地方，還是要走向歐盟相對比較保守或謹慎的地方？你的想法是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認為兩者要兼顧，也就是說，保護民眾是非常重要的，但是我們不能夠忽略掉產業的發展，所以我們會兩者兼顧。我們在……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，以前少棒的時候沒有二刀流，我覺得你很像大谷翔平又投又打，講得面面俱到，「一面抹壁雙面光」，但是有講好像沒講。我們第一次見面，我覺得大家都是以禮相待，只要是專業，我們以專業論專業，這沒有問題，但說實在話，你一定有你的方向。之前的主委講我們應該會比較朝向美、日，就是以開放、但希望能夠借重AI……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但是我認為兩者要兼顧。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩者兼顧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們期待你的版本出來之後，看看到底是怎麼樣的兩者兼顧，希望您說到做到。","再來，有提到台積電2奈米廠要進駐，希望台積電能夠根留臺灣，當然，我相信台積電也一定……全國國人沒有人不相信台積電會根留臺灣，因為台積電也是我們中華民國的驕傲。過去很多台積電的設廠應該是由台積電本身來發布，但卻沒有，很多時候都是被政府部門、被有心人士刻意地發布，到最後也是被迫去。我們現在想請教，您之前有提到南部有可能也會有設廠，現在的進度及規劃如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在沒有具體，只是還在進程當中。當然，確切的時程應該是由廠商來宣布。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，您有提到相信台積電會根留臺灣，也有提到南部會有2奈米廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該會有。"],["洪委員孟楷：應該會有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們當然不希望有什麼樣的變數。"],["洪委員孟楷：大家都不希望有變數，但是既然已經有提到了，所以「南部」會是之前提過的縣市，還是有其他的縣市？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那就是在高雄。"],["洪委員孟楷：高雄，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以預計什麼時程？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經進到建廠的階段了。"],["洪委員孟楷：建廠階段？"],["吳主任委員誠文：嗯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。主委，最後本席還是想要請教一下能源的議題，我看到今天大家也都有顧慮到能源的議題，國科會這邊也有委員，包括童子賢董事長，他也是現在國科會的委員之一，最近童子賢董事長他有提過能源的議題，他認為能源供應到了轉型的時刻，而且過去他是反核，但他現在認為核能會是一個能夠協助淨零碳排，也能夠加速綠能再生的一個過渡階段的替代能源，您自己怎麼看？有沒有跟委員這邊開過會？還沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前還沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有跟委員這邊交換過意見？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也是從媒體看到這個訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認為賴總統他已經宣示，我們的施政一定要傾聽民意，所以如果我們的社會傾向在能源的發展能夠多元的去探討，將來我們政府的施政當然還是會以民意為依歸。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK！所以沒有所謂的反核神主牌？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我個人沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：你個人沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果十年前有這樣一個理性的聲音，我想就不會有那種民粹的思維，所以十年前大家在講：「我是人，我反核」這樣子一個民粹的思維，民粹的一個口號，你個人是不認同的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同反核的意見裡面，對於民眾、對於社會各種可能的傷害，這個是一定要避免掉的，我是認同這一點，但是能源的探討，將來也有可能會發展出潔淨的核能、安全的核能，在這個前提之下，我會是認同的。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然沒有一個人希望我們使用的能源是不安全的，但是現在包括不管是火力發電、風力發電、太陽能發電或是核能發電，其實每一項發電也都有它的優點跟缺點，我一直強調能源是選擇，選擇的部分在於是說你怎麼樣來做取捨，因為大家都要用能源，所以不應該是污名化任何一種能源，再加上最近七大工業國也有發表聲明，他們不再反對核能、不再發表反核的立場、不再發表反核的宣言，並且他們有宣示2035年以前要淘汰燃煤發電，這點你有看到嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會會以科學研究的基礎來探討這個議題，我們也會兼顧在人文社會領域對這個議題的關注，如果有全民的共識，當然我們政府就會依循全民的共識來執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的全民共識是你認為的全民共識？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然就是在貴院立法院能夠同意政府的施政方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是！本席在這邊講，現在有一些委員在提到我們要延長使用核能的部分，所以立法院這邊沒有延長使用核能的議題，你們這邊都不會推動，是這樣子嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果在民間討論的結果，民意為基礎，我們當然會傾聽民意。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在一下子又說立法院、一下子又民意，本席現在再請教您，您的民意指的是哪裡的民意？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我相信立法院是代表民意的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，主委，我說實在話啦，這樣子就有點便宜行事，之前一直講說政府就是抱著一個反核神主牌，尤其這是民進黨政府的神主牌，只要立法院這邊有提到或藍營這邊有提到說要使用核能，就會用抹黑、側翼攻擊講說這個是危害，現在當然我是尊重您以一個專業的立場，可是如果說什麼事情都是推給立法院，現在在做研議的時候又要講說你看這是不是又要再傷害民眾，甚至還有那種不實的言論，講到說「這樣核廢料怎麼處理？核廢料放你家，好不好？」這種刻意的、扭曲的話術，我覺得都不是一個專業的話術，所以其實還是回過頭來，最後我只請教你一個問題，2050淨零碳排是現在政府目標、方向，也是立法院通過的氣候變遷因應法裡面立法的一個明確目標，2050淨零碳排能源配比，有講到再生能源要占幾趴？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然這個目標現在是蠻困難的，但是我們會努力，至於這個核能的議題……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，本席現在在請教再生能源要占幾趴？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：60%到70%啦。主委，本席不是要跟你錙銖必較在這種地方來考你，我只是說之前提出的再生能源的方向，2050淨零碳排以現在民進黨政府的規劃，是60%到70%要全再生能源，以現在的技術跟科技，你認為可以做到嗎？不要再講說要努力，大家都要努力啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：你覺得能做到嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：相當困難。"],["洪委員孟楷：相當困難嘛！所以，我們要比較務實地來看待，有什麼樣的能源可以，我還是強調能源是選擇，火力發電是一種能源，核能發電是一種能源，再生能源是一種能源，但是怎麼樣務實地滿足國人的需求、滿足產業的需求，能夠供電無虞，電價又相對是大家能夠負擔？在這樣的情況下，我們找出最好的能源配比，我想這才是一個做科學的精神，也才是一個務實的精神，所以既然再生能源60%到70%非常困難，是不是應該真的要進入到能源轉型的時刻？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在國科會，我們會請專家群來研討這個議題，過去並沒有很……"],["洪委員孟楷：未來有機會賴總統要請教國科會專業意見的時候，請一定要本於專業，提出正確的方向讓總統跟上位者來做決策，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.464718750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.454718750000001,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.68221875,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.94659375,"end":27.402218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":27.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.50346875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.05221875,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.330343750000004,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.58346875,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.650968750000004,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":79.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.51221875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.52846875,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":114.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.25346875000001,"end":115.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.33346875000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.35846875000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.57784375000001,"end":118.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.61159375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.96596875,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.13846875,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.28971875,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.42284375,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.73471875,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.35909375,"end":170.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.89034375,"end":172.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.06721875000002,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.48346875000001,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.52534375000002,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.31409375,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.95534375000003,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.68221875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.22096875000003,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.97471875000002,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.56534375,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.02471875,"end":229.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.21034375000002,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.75034375,"end":229.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.81784375,"end":232.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.01159375,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.51784375000003,"end":233.74971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.74971875000003,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.20096875000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.97721875000002,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.78471875000002,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.13909375000003,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.34096875,"end":257.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.97784375000003,"end":268.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.27159375,"end":281.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.30534375,"end":269.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26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有你的方向之前主委講是說我們應該會比較朝向美日就是以開放但是我們希望能夠借重AI但是我認為兩者要兼顧"},{"start":343.297,"end":364.072,"text":"兩者兼顧我們期待看你的版本出來之後到底是怎麼樣的兩者兼顧希望您說到做到再來有提到是說台積電二奈米廠要進駐希望台積電能夠跟流台灣當然我相信台積電也一定全國國人沒有人不相信台積電會跟流台灣"},{"start":364.993,"end":366.214,"text":"現在沒有具體只是﹗"},{"start":395.578,"end":424.095,"text":"只是還在進程當中。那當然確確的這個時程應該是由廠商來宣布。是。但是您有提到說相信台積電更有台灣嘛。但也有提到南部會有二奈米廠。應該會有。應該會有。是。我們當然不希望有什麼樣的變數啦。大家都不希望有變數。但這樣已經有提到嘛。所以說這個南部會是之前提過的縣市還是有其他的縣市?"},{"start":426.656,"end":436.262,"text":"在高雄?所以預計什麼時程?已經進到建廠的階段了。"},{"start":439.96,"end":464.708,"text":"最後啦本席還是想請教一下能源的議題啦我看到今天我們相關大家也都有顧慮到能源的議題那國科會這邊也有委員委員有包括說我們的童子賢董事長他也是我們現在國科會委員之一那最近童子賢董事長他有提過就說能源的議題他認為能源供應到轉型的時刻而且"},{"start":466.392,"end":480.532,"text":"過去他是反核但他現在認為說核能會是一個能夠協助淨零碳排也能夠加速綠能再生的一個過渡的一個階段的取代能源您自己怎麼看有沒有跟這個委員這邊有開過會"},{"start":483.079,"end":511.047,"text":"還沒有,目前還沒有那有沒有跟委員交換過意見我也是從媒體看到這個訊息我認為賴總統他已經宣示我們的施政一定要傾聽民意所以如果說我們的這個社會傾向在能源的發展能夠多元多元的去探討將來我們政府的施政當然還是會以民意為依歸所以沒有所謂的反核生主牌"},{"start":512.466,"end":513.766,"text":"我認同反核的意見裡面對於民眾對於社會"},{"start":539.383,"end":539.403,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":555.673,"end":584.038,"text":"當然沒有一個人希望我們使用的能源是不安全的但現在包括說不管是火力發電風力發電太陽能發電或是核能發電其實每一項發電也都有它的優點跟缺點我一直強調能源是選擇選擇的部分在於是說你怎麼樣來做取捨因為大家都要用能源嘛所以不應該是汙名化任何一種能源再加上最近七大工業國也有發表聲明他們不再反對核能不再發表反核的立場"},{"start":585.339,"end":598.619,"text":"在發表反核的宣言並且他們有宣誓2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電這點你有看到嗎?國科會會以科學研究的基礎"},{"start":600.135,"end":622.343,"text":"來探討這個議題那我們也會兼顧在人文社會領域對這個議題的關注達到如果有全民的共識那我們當然政府就會依行全民的共識來執行什麼樣的全民共識是你認為的全民共識當然就是在貴院立法院能夠同意政府的施政方向所以如果說不是"},{"start":623.403,"end":632.381,"text":"本席這邊講現在我們有一些委員在提到是說我們要延長使用核能的部分所以立法院這邊沒有延長使用核能的議題我們這邊都不會推動是這樣子嗎"},{"start":637.192,"end":646.9,"text":"如果在民間討論的結果民意為基礎我們當然會傾聽民意。我相信立法院是代表民意的。"},{"start":656.728,"end":658.469,"text":"提到是說要使用核能就把"},{"start":677.509,"end":700.579,"text":"摸黑徹役攻擊講說這個是危害那現在當然我是尊重您以一個專業的立場可是如果說什麼事情都是在推給立法院現在在做這個研議的時候又要講是說你看這是不是又要再傷害民眾甚至講到那種不實的言論講到說那這樣核廢料怎麼處理核廢料放你家好不好這種"},{"start":702.25,"end":724.862,"text":"刻意的扭曲的話術我覺得這都不是一個專業的話術所以其實還是拉過頭來最後我只請教你一個問題2050淨零碳排是現在政府目標方向也是立法院通過的氣候變遷因應法裡面立法的一個明確的一個目標2050淨零碳排能源配比有講到再生能源要佔幾%"},{"start":730.398,"end":739.064,"text":"當然這個目標現在是蠻困難的但是我們會努力那至於這個核能的議題本席現在在請教說再生能源要佔幾%"},{"start":744.461,"end":770.219,"text":"60到70%啦 來啦 主委本席不是要跟你在這種蜘蛛壁教這種地方來考你我只是說在生能源之前提出來的方向2050精靈碳排以現在民進黨政府規劃是要60%到70%是要存在生能源那以現在的技術跟科技你認為可以做得到嗎不要再講說要努力大家都要努力啦你覺得能做到嗎"},{"start":771.792,"end":798.835,"text":"相當困難相當困難嘛所以我們要比較務實的來看待有什麼樣的能源是可以我還是強調能源是選擇火力發電是一種能源核能發電是一種能源再生能源是一種能源但是怎麼樣務實的滿足國人的需求滿足產業的需求能夠供電無虞又電價相對大家能夠負擔的情況下我們找出最好的能源配比我想這才是一個做科學的精神也才是一個務實的精神"},{"start":799.375,"end":806.057,"text":"所以既然再生能源60到70%非常困難是不是應該真的要進入到能源轉型的轉型時刻我們會在國科會我們會請專家群來研討這個議題過去並沒有很未來有機會賴總統要"},{"start":819.02,"end":828.453,"text":"請教國科會專業意見的時候請一定要本於專業的提出正確的方向來讓總統跟上位者來做決策可以嗎同意謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4532ba5c4950be88b6cf1f99622ceb699a780469f81d0044283274b52413cc438d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:21:03 - 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謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4536c6b03c089d976d49f2fcaa3dc194f7380469f81d0044283d9771c6b83d88dd95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:17:01 - 09:26:12","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":551,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-17"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:26:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:17:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":250,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時17分）有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：何部長好，恭喜你進入到中央行政部門。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：我自己來自民間團體，也一直在關心兒少，所以對部長有些期許，因為少子化本來就是一個國安問題，過去我們在民間一直在倡導少子化的對應政策裡面，年輕人碰到高工時、低薪、高房價，剛剛部長有說，未來還是會持續延續著過去蔡總統的政策，會把基本工資再往上調。可是除了薪資以外，年輕人要生養小孩很重要的可能還要考慮到你的配套措施，因為過去一直在講要給育兒津貼，但事實上還有很大的部分是在於我剛剛提的像高工時這一塊，你們要解決低薪，可是高工時，甚至搭配像育嬰假等措施，甚至有的國家會因為胎次不同而有不同的產假，還有彈性工時跟企托，這些都期待部長未來在你的任內，是不是讓我們少子化的課題能夠透過這些相關的制度，來讓年輕人更有心力來生養小孩？","今天就要來問移工的一些問題。2月16日我們簽了臺印MOU，這之後就收到非常多不同的聲音，去年11月就有人在公共政策平臺裡面提出反對；4月份又有移工團體不反對，可是希望能夠直聘；後來當然也有雇主團體明確表示，希望我們的看護工可以作為引進的試辦對象。在臺印MOU裡面，總共簽訂的協議內容大概十三條，其中有兩個，就是簡化勞工聘僱程序跟推動直接聘僱這兩項，可是我們看到直聘從96年開辦後，一路以來一直往下，因為它只剩下收件的功能，所以從105年之後下滑到去年只剩下5,700件，只剩下收件的功能。所以想先問部長，這個直聘政策看起來事實上是一個很失敗的政策，可是勞動部在臺印的MOU裡面還是把它列入，所以想問政府有沒有在臺印合作上去振興直聘的好方法，有沒有想到？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員我瞭解，我也把這個列為是我上任以後最重要的工作，直聘的有效率化跟友善化將是我最重要的施政重點之一，因為太多的雇主他們想要自己聘，可是那繁瑣的文書作業確實讓大家都覺得很無力，尤其應該要推動讓移工朋友也可以自己申請，這都可以減緩不必要的這種移工的……在勞動環境條件上的改善，我想在這個部分，你們前陣子有去親身看過直聘中心，我們的署長也有規劃了未來可以線上申辦，5天之內就可以拿到件，已經有做出這樣子的規劃。"],["林委員月琴：是，因為站在使用者的角度上來看的話，像這樣子要跟這麼多的中央部會然後地方，所涉及的單位大概至少就5個，而且聘僱過程當中要使用、要簽的相關文件大概就41件，相較下，我們其他的各種聘僱關係都沒有這麼繁瑣，所以想問部長，在93年公布的雇主聘僱外國人許可及管理辦法20年了，這些程序簡化了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，這就是現在要去努力的目標。"],["林委員月琴：好，那我們就期待部長能夠……"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員提醒，真的非常重要。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼？因為很麻煩，大家就是找仲介，可是我覺得仲介的費用，這看起來事實上是政府的一些收費標準，可是到底他們真的只有這些費用嗎？家庭類的雇主抱著手上的一個名額，常常受制於我們的仲介提出來的條件，像買工費，又稱為挑工費，8,000到2萬元，這種非法的收費、這樣金錢的代價可能可以聘到一些……或者是有得到視訊面試的一些機會，所以想問的是，像仲介本來就有一個評鑑制度，事實上是可以去約束不法的仲介，可是重點是評鑑委員是不是能夠具備足夠的代表性，所以本席要求在評鑑委員的邀請上，應該要同時兼顧……否則我剛剛講的挑工費，一般如果沒有碰到的，大家根本也不太知道，現在有很多相關的民間團體，是不是他們有使用的經驗，成了一個民間團體的時候，他們有相對很多的資訊，因為都是他們自己親身碰到的，是不是才有辦法、有能力把不良的仲介把汰換掉？我不知道部長是不是同意針對你的評鑑委員應該要考慮到多元性？"],["何部長佩珊：可以、可以，謝謝委員，其實現在已經有邀請，可是我認為應該還可以再更強化外部委員的監督，讓他們來加入這樣子，我們會跟署長一起來研究，然後我們來儘快處理這樣子。"],["林委員月琴：對，不是讓政府一些公布的收費標準以外，還要去增加雇主的負擔……"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得這事實上是政府要去做把關的。"],["何部長佩珊：事實上這是違法的，可是當然在查緝上是不是很有力呢？確實我們必須要來深刻檢討。"],["林委員月琴：就是希望你們趕快內部針對這個，還有評鑑制度也要去做調整。最後當然就是本席要提出一個訴求，是不是可以建置雇主跟移工線上面試的公共系統，為什麼要這樣子做？我們今天任何一個雇主要聘用一個人，我不知道他的長相，我也不知道他的狀態，然後他馬上可能就進來這邊到我的家裡來，所以臺灣大概沒有這樣子的一個行業是我在聘僱之前，我完全沒有看過這個人，而且完全倚賴仲介給我的資訊，由這樣的第三方來做這樣的撮合，所以本席要求勞動部是不是可以架設一個提供給雇主、移工在求才、求職時得以免費使用的公共面試平台，而且能夠附同步的翻譯功能跟履歷徵才資訊相互傳遞功能，不管是境外的聘僱跟境內的承接都要開放使用，有助於兩邊的合作關係，因為畢竟他們是要長時間相處的，我不知道部長，這個訴求你可以……"],["何部長佩珊：可以……"],["林委員月琴：什麼時候……"],["何部長佩珊：而且現在正在研究要做了。"],["林委員月琴：大概在什麼時間或是在什麼時候？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，確實我們現在已經要提出一個精進方案，這個部分已經納入，我們大概希望，因為透過系統的開發，或許在下半年我們儘早來推動。"],["林委員月琴：下半年，大概年底有機會嗎？還是要……"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這個我們會越快越好，因為它涉及到系統的開發，我們最慢年底前一定可以完成。"],["林委員月琴：下個會期的時候是不是可以提出初步的一些相關對應的方向？"],["蔡署長孟良：這沒問題，這我們會提出。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林月琴委員發言。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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那也想先對部長有些期許,因為少子化本來就是一個國安問題的"},{"start":34.372,"end":63.334,"text":"那過去我們在民間一直在倡導說少子化的對應政策裡邊年輕人碰到高工時低薪高房價那剛剛部長有講說未來還是會持續延續著我們過去的蔡總統的政策裡邊會把那個基本工資再往上調可是但也期許除了薪資以外年輕人要生養小孩很重要的可能還要考慮的會是你的配套措施因為過去一直在講給育兒津貼嗎"},{"start":64.014,"end":64.194,"text":"﹚林月琴"},{"start":93.951,"end":105.742,"text":"﹚"},{"start":106.351,"end":129.954,"text":"的一些問題就是二月十六號事實上我們簽了那個台英的MOU那這之後呢就受到了非常多的不同的聲音十一月就去年十一月大家就有人在公共政策平台裏邊提出反對的反對那四月份呢又移工團體呢事實上他不反對可是呢希望能夠執聘"},{"start":131.715,"end":137.831,"text":"後來也有僱主團體明確表示說希望我們的看護工可以作為引進的事辦對象"},{"start":141.83,"end":163.028,"text":"在台印的那個MOU裡邊總共簽訂的協議面容大13條那其中有兩個事實上就是在簡化勞工的聘僱程序跟推動直接聘僱這兩項可是我們看到職聘從96年開辦一路以來一直往下因為它只剩下收件的功能"},{"start":163.608,"end":182.322,"text":"所以從105年之後下滑到去年只剩下5700件只剩下收件的一個功能所在所以想先問部長就是說這個職聘政策看起來事實上是一個"},{"start":183.37,"end":197.858,"text":"﹚"},{"start":198.949,"end":215.984,"text":"對,事業委員我了解。我也把這個列為是我上任以後最重要的工作。執聘的這個有效率化跟友善化將是我最重要的施政重點之一。因為太多的僱主他們想要自己聘。"},{"start":216.604,"end":235.211,"text":"可是反鎖的文書作業確實讓大家都覺得很無力喔那麼尤其害我們讓應該要推動那移工朋友也可以自己申請喔這都可以減緩不必要的這種移工的這樣子的一個對他的在勞動環境條件上的改善喔那"},{"start":236.431,"end":261.395,"text":"我想在這個部分我們你們前陣子有去親身看過執聘中心我們的署長他也有規劃了未來可以線上申辦五天之內就可以拿到件就可以拿到件他有已經有做出這樣子的因為正在使用者的角度上來看的話那你像這樣子的一個"},{"start":262.039,"end":286.749,"text":"﹗"},{"start":286.909,"end":313.596,"text":"在9393公布這個顧主聘僱外國人許可及管理辦法到20年了那這些的程序簡化了嗎是這就是現在要去努力的目標那我們就期待謝謝委員這一個提供為什麼因為很麻煩大家就是找仲介可是我覺得仲介的費用這看起來事實上是政府的一些收費標準"},{"start":316.995,"end":330.314,"text":"可是到底他們真的只有這些費用嗎?家庭內的僱主抱著手上的一個名額常常受制於我們的仲介提出來的條件像買工費"},{"start":332.045,"end":358.265,"text":"有稱為挑工費8000到2萬元這種非法的收費這樣金錢的代價可能可以拼到一些或者是有得到視訊面試的一些機會所以想問的是像仲介本來就有一個平間制度實際上是可以去約束不法的仲介可是重點是平間委員是不是能夠"},{"start":359.795,"end":386.113,"text":"具備足夠的代表性所以本期要求在評鑑委員的邀請上應該要同時兼顧我剛剛講的這挑工費一般的如果沒有碰到的你根本大家也不太知道那現在有很多的相關的民間團體是不是他們有使用的經驗成了一個民間團體的時候他們有相對的很多的資訊因為都是他們自己親身碰到的是不是"},{"start":386.934,"end":412.156,"text":"才有辦法有能力把我們不良的那個仲介把它汰換掉我不知道部長是不是同意針對你的平健委員應該要考慮到多元性可以可以這個謝謝委員其實現在已經有邀請可是我認為應該還可以再更強化外部委員的監督讓他們來加入這樣子這個我們會跟署長一起來研究然後我們來盡快來處理這樣子"},{"start":414.478,"end":437.956,"text":"對,我不是讓政府一些公佈的收費標準以外還要去增加僱主的負擔我覺得這是政府要去做把關的事實上這是違法的可是當然在查緝上是不是很有利呢這個確實我們必須要來深刻檢討就是希望你們趕快內部針對這個還要評鑑制度也要去做"},{"start":439.215,"end":439.455,"text":"﹚提出訴求﹚"},{"start":460.584,"end":479.589,"text":"臺灣大概沒有這樣子的一個行業是說我在聘僱之前我完全沒有看過這個人而且完全依賴仲介給我的這樣的一個第三方來做這樣的一個撮合所以本期要求勞動部是不是可以架設一個提供給僱主"},{"start":480.689,"end":489.584,"text":"一共在求才求職時得以免費使用的公共面試平台而且能夠附同步的翻譯功能"},{"start":490.477,"end":490.997,"text":"﹚林月琴﹚"},{"start":517.143,"end":526.819,"text":"市長,您覺得呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在已經要提出一個經濟問題,這個部分已經納入我們大概希望因為透過系統的開發或許在下半年,我們盡早來對抗"},{"start":528.524,"end":528.544,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453bcd5ffdeb8c92fbd5d1368e7b3a1940e80469f81d0044283b023b394b616a6ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:11:11 - 09:22:08","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案7案。\n【5月22日及23日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":657,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:22:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:11:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":49,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時11分）謝謝召委，我們請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。今天站在立法院備詢，跟你過去當少棒國手站在投手丘上面，感覺是如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：雖然是不同的場合，但身為先發投手，我一定投好球。"],["柯委員志恩：好。但你今天不是先發投手，今天是我當投手，你來接球，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我是打擊手。"],["柯委員志恩：你過去當過投手、二壘手、游擊手，所以今天讓你當一個你從來沒有當過的捕手角色，看你有沒有辦法接到我所發出的球，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["柯委員志恩：我們先來看，賴總統自詡他的團隊是AI內閣，所以我想他對於半導體科技計畫非常重視，你也是這方面的專家，我們就一一檢視。雖然剛剛上任，但是你應該看過國科會過去補助大專院校的這些計畫，對於他們推動相關半導體科技計畫的成效，到目前為止你的掌握，或者會不會滿意？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我其實有相當程度的掌握，因為我也是其中一位……"],["柯委員志恩：你滿意嗎？國科會過去補助計畫的成效。"],["吳主任委員誠文：算是滿意。"],["柯委員志恩：所以是滿意。那我們來看看，讓數據說話，你們過去花了非常多時間在不同的計畫方案上面，我不一一條列數字，不同的方案，但你會發現一個共同的公約數就是申請的人數逐年下降，為什麼會造成這樣的結果？你們說經費變多了，但是申請的人數、案件反而變少，你覺得最大的原因是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不瞞委員說，我們整個高等教育的人力，包含教授人數和學生人數是在下降當中，這一點其實……"],["柯委員志恩：你認為可能是因為人數下降的關係，所以他們投注在你們所花費最多的半導體部分人才上面，可能因為這樣讓人才的申請案就慢慢下降，這是一個原因……"],["吳主任委員誠文：主要原因……"],["柯委員志恩：人數下降。好啦！那就是人才的問題了。","我們再往下看，主委不要緊張，同樣身為大學老師，我會對你客氣一點，特別是你第一個面對的是我投的球。歷年國家的申請經費，還是請主委看一下，我們的基礎研究，說實在的跟其他國家比較起來是非常低落，我們大概就只比中國大陸多一點點，跟其他國家完全不能比，甚至不如十年前動輒達到9.8%的經費占比。你也知道基礎研究非常重要，到目前為止我們的比例非常低，你有沒有其他有用的作法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員指教，這一點我是認同，過去我們投入科研的經費，其實跟先進國家比起來是……"],["柯委員志恩：那你有沒有其他積極性的作法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實在前政委吳政忠的支持下，已經擴充了我們的科技預算，未來會持續再增加。"],["柯委員志恩：對，你提到了擴大科技預算，但還是一句話，你們申請的件數，包括人數，我讓你看一項數據，近3年的申請件數少了1,344件、核定少了625件。你們不斷地告訴我們，你們的確是非常重視這樣的產業，也給了一些錢，但是從數據看起來顯然沒有達到很大的效果。而且我特別強調，如果你沒有基礎研究，對於半導體，賴總統所謂的要信賴這個產業，我個人覺得是要打一個非常大的問號。","上一次我們在這裡，你們的林敏聰副主委特別坦承是因為國家投入基礎研究的預算太低，但8年過去了，到底有什麼方法可以處理？而且我告訴各位，你們希望鼓勵民間更多地投入基礎研究，但是全國基礎研究經費大概685億，企業部門只占9.4%，一成都不到，雖然你們喊出很大的口號，希望企業界能夠投入，可是到目前為止的成效非常糟糕。主委也在學校待過，每個人都說只需要框上一個AI的名號，就有辦法申請比較多的經費。你看看，加了「人工智慧」、「電腦科學與人工智慧」什麼的，包括「智能應用組」，名字都取得非常好聽，但是主委也知道，老師如果不再出去進修、不繼續跟業界結合，光是同樣的老師用二十年前的教材，怎麼有辦法改個名字就能讓我們的AI人才進步，這點你同意吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["柯委員志恩：好，這個球就是直接……"],["吳主任委員誠文：接到了。"],["柯委員志恩：他們說三振或者好球、Strike，非常好！但我還是要告訴你哪些地方做得很不好，歷年申請件數，我一直覺得這個申請件數雖然是量化，但它是一個參考值。你看到申請件數，包括你們過去非常強調的新秀學者、國際年輕傑出學者、優秀年輕學者，整體件數目前只剩下1,158件。主委，用數學算一下，足足少了635人！比率非常高，幾乎是腰斬。","我現在只呈現這些數據給主委回去做參考，你看這些人次統計表，講座教授、客座教授、國科會講座的人數也逐年降低。讓我最擔心的一件事情是什麼？十年來計畫補助，在臺灣參與研究計畫，你花了這麼多的錢，即使我認為人才應該流通、事業上的流通，但是我們資助的這些本國籍博士後（Postdoc），簽約完有一成四是提早離開的；外國籍的這些人更不要講，根本有四成的人返回母國任教。雖然人才是流通，但我們花了錢把這些人培養好，每個人都走掉了，那怎麼辦？"],["吳主任委員誠文：的確這是一個問題，但也值得我們高興的就是，這些人才其實都提早進到產業界了。而我們計畫的件數下降還有一個原因，因為我們有多年期的計畫在鼓勵，所以計畫的件數是下降，但他們的經費是大幅提升。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，經費大幅提升，計畫下降，所以這部分你們審查的標準，需要更細緻地告訴我，你把經費投注在比較少的部分，沒辦法廣被，我同意這是一個趨勢，但是那裡面你們審核標準到底如何？對於外國籍的博士後研究人員，為什麼在臺灣留不住？我覺得這個部分主委也要特別去看一下，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：接下來問一個問題，你應該很放心，已經最後一次揮棒了，「南方雨林計畫」，因為這是你擅長的，而且很多人都認為你是南方雨林計畫的一個推手。但是我只請問，你當初所設定的目標，兩年帶動產業投資28.5億，你認為是否達到當初的預期目標？在你回應這個問題之前，我先告訴你，因為目前為止我們有關於化合物半導體的發展，相較於國外我們晚了非常久，中國大陸大概花了44兆全力發展第三代半導體，而且目前歐美日已經掌握90%關鍵原料，這是我們比較無力的，已經全部掌握在他們手上。面對這樣的狀況，對於2030年臺灣的化合物半導體發展，你覺得有沒有辦法達到目標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我覺得有，我們會加強力道，過去的……"],["柯委員志恩：因為你當了主委，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是！"],["柯委員志恩：所以大家看到，他通常都會投一個直球，對不對？都不會彎曲。","你會達到喔！有這麼大的信心。我還是要提醒，因為我們目前為止在這一塊很多原料會因為地緣政治非常多因素的影響，所以會做到這樣的程度，不過你是這方面專家，我還是賦予你比較大的鼓勵。","但我還是要特別提到，除了你剛剛說的層面之外，我覺得非常重要的是，你剛剛在報告當中認為淨零轉型也是你們國科會非常重要的，但是你看看這個數據，你覺得這會是賴總統就職後跳票的第一張票嗎？為什麼？你可以看看我們設定所有淨零排碳的目標，我問過中研院廖院長，他認為要達到這樣的目標是非常、非常困難的，我肯定他講出實話。同樣是學者出身，這沒有藐視國會的問題，完全沒有，好不好？這個法案還沒有通過，我們也不會問這些無聊的問題，但是你看各國所設定的目標，我們距離賴總統告訴我們要達到的淨零排碳目標，以我們現在的發展方式來說，是遠遠、遠遠落後非常多，你自己認為呢？這也是你們主軸的計畫方案。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個任務非常艱難，我們會努力。"],["柯委員志恩：各位，學者專家講的還是比較客觀，一個說非常地困難，一個說非常地艱難，所以你們都不願意講其實很困難，根本不可能達到！因為國科會已經提到2023年到2026年你們會每年投入150億的經費，你覺得效果可以達到什麼樣的程度？這是我們很care的，因為這是賴總統特別承諾大家往後要朝這個目標，中研院及國科會這兩個號稱全國最聰明腦袋的人才都在這個地方，所以我只問你，五大淨零科技到底有沒有辦法提前落實？有沒有辦法在2030年達到24%的減碳目標？主委，一句話，直球，行或不行？沒有曲球，行或不行？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還要努力。"],["柯委員志恩：好，他的答案翻譯來說就是很困難。所以我認為不管怎樣，你講了實話，2030年要達到24%的減碳目標，這一點是賴總統的選票當中、所開出的政見當中第一個絕對會跳票的。謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委。主委，請回。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":216,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-13","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","萬美玲","林倩綺","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","賴士葆","范雲","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1135001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.56221875,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.66659375,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.558468750000003,"end":35.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.181593750000005,"end":77.62221875},{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Eats是占32%，foodpanda占43%，兩個加起來已經接近八成，但是也有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用，所以它的市占率可能沒那麼高，市占率真的沒那麼高嗎？你們要怎麼計算那個市占率？我首先問這一個。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員提問，衡量市占率的面向非常多，譬如說他們的營業額、信用卡簽單或者訂單數等等。我們會很審慎的評估，最主要是從這幾個面向來看。"],["邱委員議瑩：你從營業額還是……"],["李主任委員鎂：信用卡簽單。"],["邱委員議瑩：用信用卡簽單計算……"],["李主任委員鎂：還有訂單，還有營業額。"],["邱委員議瑩：用訂單數計算它的市占率。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一個界定的原則，會根據這個SOP來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：你未來會不會把所有的餐飲店家通通合併計算進去？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是計算餐飲店家，主要是我剛剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數，從這一些看它的市占率。"],["邱委員議瑩：第二個我要請教一下，對於員工的保障或者是參與店家的保障，這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個會是裡面的考量因素。"],["邱委員議瑩：你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項，可不可以一項一項跟委員會說明？"],["李主任委員鎂：剛才我有提到以幾個面向看這個結合案件，包括集中程度、競爭者減少是不是有抬高價格的能力、同業間會不會有提高聯合行為的風險，還有一個是交易相對人的議價能力。所謂交易相對人就包括餐廳、外送員、消費者，這一些交易相對人會不會因為結合的結果，讓他在談判過程當中的議價能力受到影響，這個都會一起考量。"],["邱委員議瑩：你所謂的議價能力有沒有包括比如說這些消費者的權益或者是外送員的權益、餐廳抽成的權益等等？這些有沒有包括在你剛才談的這些……"],["李主任委員鎂：都會通盤考量。"],["邱委員議瑩：都在這些考量裡頭？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候，大家也會有一些擔憂跟疑慮，後來這個併購案是成功的，但是你們有幾項附帶條件，把它加總進去。像這麼重大的併購案，你們會不會相對的把這些條件加進去？大家長期一直在討論，比如說餐廳的抽成被抽30%到35%，未來只有一家外送業者，有可能它的抽成還會更高，小吃業者的負擔其實會加重。對於外送員的權益、薪資、勞動條件的保障等等，會不會順帶在你們的附加決議裡頭一併考量，或者是把它附在決議裡頭，把它講得很清楚？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於這個結合案，最後委員會的結果是同意還是不同意還要討論，假設不同意就沒有附加條件；假設同意……"],["邱委員議瑩：當然，假如不同意就沒有這些東西了。"],["李主任委員鎂：假設同意的話……"],["邱委員議瑩：假設同意的話呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：怎麼做條件、怎麼做負擔，這個要經過委員會討論，才能看看怎麼樣是最適切的……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，當然不是在這裡下指導棋，只是外送平台對於這些外送員的權益、商家被抽成的比例過高等等，所有的勞動權甚至市占率，以後消費者的權益，未來假如你們通過這樣重大的併購案時，我們希望照顧消費者、保護消費者、保護商家，甚至保護外送員相對權利的部分，也都能夠列入你們附加的條件裡頭，因為這個大家已經談太多了。過去你們都沒有辦法管制他們，是不是建議利用這樣的一個審查機會，把這些相對的東西提出來？甚至你們在審查的時候，應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的作法，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們都會通盤考量，尤其社會關切這一些消費者、外送員、餐廳等等，還有整個市場競爭的影響，這個我們都會一起考量。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，休息1分鐘。","休息（9時20分）","繼續開會（9時21分）"],["主席（邱委員議瑩）：好，我們現在請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda"},{"start":50.575,"end":50.875,"text":"主委（"},{"start":79.909,"end":101.061,"text":"您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的市佔率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來,Uber Eats是佔32%,Foodpanda佔43%,兩個加起來就已經接近八成。"},{"start":102.569,"end":121.169,"text":"但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是他市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額"},{"start":122.27,"end":125.853,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":153.425,"end":174.848,"text":"會不會?不是計算餐飲店家,就是主要我剛提到的營業額、信用卡簽單、訂單數,這一些來看它的這個市佔率。好,第二個我要請教一下,對於員工的保障,或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障,這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭?這個會在裡面的考量因素?"},{"start":175.709,"end":195.909,"text":"你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來來看這個結合案件包括這個集中程度那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險"},{"start":196.51,"end":199.951,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具〈多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":221.658,"end":240.224,"text":"等等餐廳的抽成的權益等等這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候其實大家也會有一些擔憂疑慮那後來這個併購案是成功的但是你們有幾項的附帶條件把它加總進去"},{"start":245.146,"end":271.097,"text":"那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的"},{"start":273.558,"end":274.538,"text":"我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是"},{"start":291.311,"end":307.806,"text":"同意還是不同意這個還要討論假設是不同意就沒有附加條件當然啦當然啦我現在問就是說假如不同意就沒有這些東西了嗎假設同意的話假設是同意的話呢怎麼做條件怎麼做負擔我想這個要經過委員會討論才能去"},{"start":308.84,"end":311.682,"text":"二、審查（一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。）"},{"start":330.678,"end":330.698,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":347.822,"end":370.409,"text":"都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嘛是不是"},{"start":370.589,"end":382.671,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"152861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45366de6a0a7c78e4159f2fcaa3dc194f7380469f81d0044283b4341338a79802995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:08:34 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部長參考那"},{"start":40.407,"end":63.66,"text":"部長就是前幾天內閣總辭的在席別會上陳建源前院長有談到說您還沒畢業因為要去研究所那我知道所謂的研究所就是這個勞動部那我們就算不算口試委員然後想請教部長您的論文題目想好了嗎就是您就任這個部長之後您覺得自己最重要的任務是什麼"},{"start":65.417,"end":93.609,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛我的業務報告有一定程度的呈現了我的這一個施政的項目施政的這個重點那麼對時間不夠讓部長來做充分報告那之前有一個民調有調查那個賴清德總統就是人民期待賴清德政府能夠做的優先做的解決的一些問題其中有三件跟勞動議題是相關的第一個就是解決長期的薪資停滯"},{"start":95.251,"end":95.431,"text":"國務委員報告"},{"start":117.141,"end":133.306,"text":"強化低薪的部分事實上不是只有勞動部他還必須會同經濟部、金管會等那麼其實經濟部在最近通過的中小企業加薪抵稅條例就是我們行政院提出的中小企業加薪抵稅條例其實這一定程度的可以讓企業有對員工加薪的誘因要開抵稅那當然這個是經濟部的工具那麼我們希望能夠在這個基礎上"},{"start":144.309,"end":164.531,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":165.432,"end":191.167,"text":"我們本黨可能近期也會提出所謂七月三法就是有獲利的上市公使可能要做這個部分那部長5月初我們剛結束那個臺美貿易協定的這個第二階段的談判那我想您了解其中有關勞動議題的部分很受重視那美國是希望臺灣要能夠禁止輸入有強迫勞動所製造的這個產品那如果在國內發現的話就必須下架那請問勞動部有沒有開始去盤點"},{"start":192.868,"end":197.591,"text":"我們進口品當中有哪些是屬於這個所謂強迫勞動產出的產品是委員報告喔勞動部本身有在做跟移民所合作研究計畫正在研究什麼是強迫勞動產品事實上根據我的瞭解喔這個強迫勞動產品的清單應該是可能是必須美方提供啦而不是我方所以這個"},{"start":220.666,"end":241.487,"text":"對,所以這個部分未來因為台美這個談判還在持續中事實上他們6月才剛離開那當然等一下我會提到國內部分因為我覺得這個緊張的瞭解不只是說為了幫助這個台美貿易協定的進行另外一方面也讓我們國人能夠有預先準備到底哪一些產品是屬於這個部分我們要準備替代品嘛"},{"start":243.029,"end":259.985,"text":"我們也要避免在這個執行所謂強迫勞動產品認定的過程裡面去引發不必要的民怨你知道台灣本身也有強迫勞動的問題因為美國國務院人權報告就指出台灣仲介向移工收取費用"},{"start":260.986,"end":263.348,"text":"這就是用強迫勞動的他們的定義強迫勞動那因為美國勞動部的這個同工跟所謂的這個強迫勞動製品名單臺灣的漁獲漁獲的這個部分也被列為強迫勞動所得的這個產品那我知道這個遠洋漁工是屬於農業部來管理的"},{"start":278.922,"end":299.428,"text":"但是監察院也提出過報告那行政院也有指示就是說是不是要做跨部委勞動部也要參與這個部分因為這些遠洋漁工他們的權益跟勞基法有相當的這個距離那所以勞動部可能也是責無旁貸啦那對於漁工重借費收取重借費不曉得部長您的想法是什麼"},{"start":300.308,"end":314.585,"text":"是我們很努力的在因為這是來源國的問題因為漁工收取仲介費基本上是在我講的是臺灣的仲介收取的部分因為他們據說我們是唯一的一個國家有收取這樣的費用"},{"start":315.922,"end":323.167,"text":"我們的定義是你有服務才能收費啦所以那不是那那並不是必要而且是他們雙方合意的"},{"start":346.202,"end":358.532,"text":"是的我們正在研究重借會跟移工收取服務費那另外一個就取消如果取消這個服務費會有什麼影響我們可以就取消會有什麼影響那是不是請勞動部可以做個書面報告提供我們好謝謝那部長您接任這個勞動部部長有個消息傳來當然某一些勞動團體他們有反彈因為他們當時認為就是說所謂的在他們眼中是個惡法勞基法是個惡法"},{"start":378.866,"end":398.62,"text":"您當年曾經積極參加勞工運動帶著工人前往勞委會衝撞然後跟警方發生衝突還因此被判刑您是創下學生參與社會運動第一個被判刑的例子雖然最後是緩刑所以我相信勞工仍然是你心中最軟的一塊"},{"start":399.48,"end":424.573,"text":"那也有人說勞工是你血液中的DNA那我希望部長在您的任期當中能夠努力的推動對勞工權益有幫助的一個法案我覺得您這個表現如果您有好的表現的話那未來就是說這些所謂的質疑它是一個平反的機會不曉得部長您對這個部分的想法是怎麼樣"},{"start":425.913,"end":433.376,"text":"是,謝謝委員,您很了解我對,那就是說因為我確實35年前曾經有這樣子的一個經驗那麼不過因為當時是年輕那麼有這個當時的人道關懷那麼現在我一樣會秉持我的人道關懷對我們勞工朋友做最大的施政努力這一點請您放100個心我覺得對"},{"start":450.521,"end":457.486,"text":"關於勞基法二修那件事情事實上我想當時的勞動朋友們可能有些誤解因為我們在修法的過程裡面其實並沒有修惡我們只是讓它有彈性事實上這部法律經過修法後它現在已經運作6年了事實上也運作得很好那麼我們的經濟到現在才可以這麼創新高那麼勞工的朋友的薪資跟工時其實都是相對更好"},{"start":480.402,"end":480.862,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"152860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453b303237e68e01c9abde51848baade82980469f81d00442831b55de518f4f2cb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:03:32 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09:06:13","影片長度":"00:02:41","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":161,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-25"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:06:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:03:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":72,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時3分）謝謝主席還有各位同仁，以及在場的所有官員。我想洗錢防制法的立法在大家都非常關心所謂詐騙案猖獗的現代，所以台灣民眾黨提出的洗錢防制法有以下三個特色：第一個，我們應該擴大滿足洗錢防制制度的業別，強化虛擬資產業還有第三方支付業的登記制度，因為他們現在幾乎叫做無人可管。要授權主管機關建立洗錢防制的資訊交換平台，並且加強洗錢防制的資訊交換。","首先在這個版本裡面，我們希望能夠強化對於虛擬資產業者，還有第三方支付業者目前的登記制度。在設計上面我們完善洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記制度，目前我們將業者針對境內跟境外都作了區分，對於境內的業者如果沒有進行洗錢防制登記就進行廣告或相關業務招攬，就必須要給它一定的行政罰，連續違規3次以上就有刑罰，沒有完成登記就在我們境內營業的業者，我們第一次就給它罰鍰，第二次開始就有刑罰；境外的業者同樣須要辦理登記才可以在國內進行廣告或營業，同樣地，第一次被主管機關查獲，主管機關必須公告名單，並要求辦理登記，第二次開始我們就要讓主管機關可以限制它的瀏覽。","同時為了加強洗錢防制資訊的交換，讓前端的金融業者跟後端的檢警調能夠有最快速的資訊交換平台，我們希望在法條裡面要求法務部建立一個統一的平台，讓洗防法所有對於客戶有確認身分、管制帳戶要求的機構都可以有一個統一的平台，以及跟其他機構跟檢警交換資訊的機會，希望這個平台是由政府來建置，讓資訊不再繼續適用傳真或者是業者跟機關窗口之間的email或LINE來傳達，而是有一個國家級的平台可以用來交換資訊，不管是凍結或者是管制帳戶，都能更快、更準確，所以希望透過此次洗錢防制法的修正，強化國內金融機構對於洗錢防制制度的建立，還要對於虛擬資產、第三方支付有登記監管制度，確保我國在打擊詐欺政策上面能夠更有效地執行。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，現在請機關代表報告，時間3分鐘。","首先進行預算解凍書面報告案，請口頭報告。","請立法院周秘書長報告。"],["周秘書長萬來：主席、各位委員。今天應邀至貴委員會就本院主管113年度預算凍結項目提出報告，深感榮幸。有關本院主管113年度預算凍結項目之書面報告均於本（113）年3月底前函送立法院在案，各預算凍結項目之辦理情形，詳如附件。","本院歲出預算之編列，均係為建立優質立委問政環境，提升委員問政與服務效能及有效推動本院各項院務所需，尚請各位委員仍秉一貫愛護之初衷，鼎力支持，謝謝！"],["主席：接下來請行政院人事行政總處懷副人事長口頭報告。"],["懷副人事長敍：主席、各位委員女士、先生，大家早安。感謝大院委員會今天安排本總處的預算解凍報告，我們在113年度審議中央政府總預算的時候，曾經對我們總處的人事行政政策規劃跟發展凍結350萬，相關報告都在1月23號已經函送大院在案，簡單報告如下：","第一個，關於勤休辦法的宣導精進作為。我們在去年有做多次的通函，並且也做實地的參與，在今年也採取勤休制度的數位化課程，已經在今年3月底上線了，我們希望未來閱讀率的目標能夠在95%以上，另外也辦理了相關的分區座談會。","對於特殊輪休制度的管理精進作為，我們在去年9月就安排對於勤休制度工時較長的機關進行實地訪視，跟基層同仁相關座談，也就他們提出的問題提出解決的方式。另外，也把勤休制度的精進納入我們人事機構的人事主管考核作業中。","關於公務人員個人資料網精進作為的部分，公務人員個人資料網是公職人員資料的一站式服務，去年總共服務達260萬人次，公務人員的資料校對達57萬人次，獎勵令無紙化部分達到140萬件。公務人員職涯生涯查詢資料達110萬人次，未來我們會持續推動相關機關跨機關的整合，擴大公務員在這方面的服務。","另外，健全公教人員調薪制度法制化或法律依據的部分，我們人事長今年3月在大院委員會已經承諾，未來會朝法制化的方向規劃，目前總處已經依照中央行政機關的法制作業規定，研擬相關的草案，後續會徵詢中央跟地方主管機關跟相關團體意見辦理草案的公告，評估後再根據各界的意見來調整內容報行政院審議，我們預計最遲會在今年年底送到大院審議。","另外關於公務人員居家辦公的申請標準，我們在COVID-19的時候已有推動居家辦公，另外在112年6月已經訂定行政院跟所屬中央各機關居家辦公的相關規範，這個計畫會繼續推動到明年底。","另外評估中央政府總員額法是否需要調整，這部分我們在過去已經有做適當地調整，未來如果各員額上限有需要調整的話，我們會依照中央政府總員額法的相關規定來進行員額上的調整。","另外，比照護理師模式研議警消勤務加給的部分，因為這兩者之間，事實上不管它的目的跟本質有什麼不同，但是我們考慮到警消的工作特殊性，我們自去年7月1日開始就已經對於警消勤務加給調增15%，每月加發7,000到9,700元左右。這個部分因為涉及到不只是警消人員有輪班輪休，還有其他公務員，所涉及的預算相當的規模，因此未來在處理這件事情，我們會再審慎評估，與財主單位一起來審慎評估。","本總處各項施政計畫都有相關的規定在推動，也請各位委員能夠支持解凍案，以上報告，報告完畢，謝謝，敬請指教！"],["主席：謝謝。法案部分的口頭報告，請法務部徐次長報告。"],["徐次長錫祥：主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生。今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會，就行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案一案，提出報告並備質詢，僅提供本部意見如下，敬請指教。","壹、前言及行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案","針對亞太防制洗錢組織（APG）第三輪互相評鑑就我國洗錢防制法面指出缺點及建議，為落實以我國風險為基礎之洗錢防制措施，本部就我國常見洗錢犯罪類型及新興洗錢犯罪手法，因應現行實務對洗錢犯罪構成要件之適用爭議，擬具洗錢防制法修正草案，修正洗錢定義、洗錢犯罪之構成要件及刑度，並增訂提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務等事業或人員未登記卻在境內提供服務之刑責、利用此類帳戶犯洗錢法之處罰，以及在刑事政策面以洗錢規模區分不同刑度、提高法人的罰金刑度、沒收擴大範圍，也增訂偵辦洗錢犯罪控制下交付機制，及為鼓勵自新及自首，減輕或免除其刑，促使洗錢防制法符合國際規範，並有效提升我國執法的效能。","貳、本部對於各法案之意見：","一、有關台灣民眾黨黨團及黃珊珊、黃國昌委員所擬具洗錢防制法第十條之一意定信託規定，與行政院函請審議版大致相同，第十二條及第十二條之一有關海關部分、第二十一條互惠原則、第二十一條之一控制下交付等規定，均與行政院函請審議版本相同，本部敬表贊成。","二、有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊等委員3人及郭國文等委員16人所提草案第五條修正用語高風險業進行洗錢防制登記等部分，行政院版本草案已修正虛擬資產業者用語與FATF建議一致，增訂指定範圍包含達一定金額以上交易應使用現金以外之支付工具，又第三方支付行業已於110年經行政院指定為本條第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員。","三、有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊等委員3人所提草案第五條之一、第五條之二及郭國文等委員16人所提草案第六條之一對虛擬資產、第三方支付等服務業、線上遊戲或遊戲點數等高洗錢風險業者之規範部分，本部意見為，若要採登記制納管，因涉及登記申請及相關流程，宜由該業別之主管機關先建立制度，而高洗錢風險業別之業者於境內提供有關本業服務固應受規範，然若涉及本業以外之業務內容，例如廣告、業務招攬，並非國際規範要求防制洗錢納管範圍，且法制面宜循其他法規處理。","四、有關台灣民眾黨及黃珊珊、黃國昌委員所提草案及其他條文，本部意見如下：","(一)第二條，洗錢定義，掩護型洗錢犯罪係參考德國刑法第二百六十一條規定，宜定性為抽象危險犯。","(二)第三條，特定犯罪，具高洗錢風險之犯罪類型均已納入。","(三)第七條之一，本部建置平台部分，本部目前已有機制可以完全辦理，且均有在進行。","(四)第十一條，洗錢或資恐高風險國家或地區定義，現行條文更具彈性。","(五)第十四條，一般洗錢罪部分，貴黨團及委員提案是否符合罪責級距，建請再酌。","(六)第十五條，特殊洗錢法部分，將與收入顯不相當列為犯罪構成要件之一，恐造成富人自始排除成立犯罪可能性的不公平現象。","(七)第十五條之一，人頭帳戶（號）之規定，貴黨團及委員提案恐混淆該規範與幫助詐欺、幫助洗錢罪嫌的區別。","(八)第十六條，提高法人罰金之倍數及自首減免刑責部分，所適用的條文範圍，均請再酌。","(九)第十七條，免除保密義務部分，現行法第九條第二項、第十條第二項已有明文，又金融機構或指定非金融機構應確實落實客戶盡職調查。","(十)第十八條，沒收範圍擴大部分，所適用法條的範圍，建請再酌。","參、結語","行政院已於113年5月9日通過洗錢防制法修正草案，該法案兼顧我國國情及國際規範，為我國打擊新興詐欺、洗錢等犯罪，及面對APG第四輪相互評鑑時，可再創佳績的重要武器，期能於本會期完成修法，以展現政府遏制不法及促使金流透明，以接軌國際之決心。以上報告，敬請主席及各位委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：其餘機關報告請參閱書面。機關代表報告完畢，相關書面報告內容列入公報紀錄。"],["立法院書面資料：","立法院主管113年度預算凍結項目報告","主席、各位委員：","今天應邀至貴委員會就本院主管113年度預算凍結項目提出報告，深感榮幸。有關本院主管113年度預算凍結項目之書面報告均於本（113）年3月底前函送立法院在案，各預算凍結項目之辦理情形，詳如附件。","本院歲出預算之編列，均係為建立優質立法問政環境，提升委員問政與服務效能及有效推動本院各項院務所需，尚請各位委員仍秉一貫愛護之初衷，鼎力支持，謝謝！","附件","一、歲出部分決議事項(一)「一般行政」凍結74萬元，說明如下：","(一)改進空調系統及電梯維修等老舊設備問題：","委員研究大樓係87年.用至今，已逾25餘年，其空調系統（含管線）及電梯系統性能老舊。經評估改善策略如下：","1.112年度更新7、9及11樓空調系統，改善相關委員研究室及會議空間之辦公環境需求，並將依經費許可逐步改善。","2.空調系統管線為ABS材質，近年常因人為（更新空調設備零件等）或非人為（冰水主機運轉）擾動造成破裂漏水，經技師評估後需編列預算辦理分期分層管線汰換工程（更新不鏽鋼材質）；短程計畫先以緊急修繕標準作業程序處理。","3.本案電梯改善工程發生故障情事，經施工廠商無償採用優規電梯產品進行汰換，3部電梯業於112年度已全數換裝且經試車完成，並於112年12月6日驗收。後續將再洽第三方公正單位辦理安全鑑定，以確保搭乘安全。","(二)遷建計畫期程（含預算編列）之規劃書：","1.本院成立「立法院未來國會願景規劃諮詢委員會」評選出6處優先考慮的擴建基地，分別為中正紀念堂園區、空軍總部舊址、土城看守所現址、成功嶺營區、高鐵彰化車站特定區、中興文化創意產業園區。","2.本院於111年度委託專業廠商辦理可行性研究，已進行初步優劣勢分析、預算及分年分期開發計畫期程，並提供112年5月18日各黨團推派委員成立之「國會擴建規劃暨監督委員會」，做為審查擴建基地之基礎資訊。","(三)立法院擴建事宜，將成本與效益因素納入決策考量，並注重長期性（整體性）之規劃，將目標之設計、計畫之擬訂與預算之籌編及資源之配置適度結合，俾期立法院預算決策更具前瞻性，政策規劃更具延續性：","1.本院於111年度委託專業廠商辦理可行性研究，已進行初步優劣勢分析、預算及分年分期開發計畫期程，並提供112年5月18日各黨團推派委員成立之「國會擴建規劃暨監督委員會」，做為審查擴建基地之基礎資訊。","2.113年度編列之立法院擴建基地等規劃與評估相關技術服務費用，擬俟未來新院址地點選定後，委託廠商針對該址基地基本資料加強環境背景資料蒐集，進行詳盡之設施需求、法令可行性、環境影響分析，並能明確提出園區願景表現意義、量體規劃構想、開發費用分析（含效益評估）、開發時程方案、政府各類法規遵循及成本效益分析等。","(四)改善相關資訊設備與入口網平台：","為提供委員國會辦公室穩健之資訊設備，以符合業務需求，本(11)屆委員研究室及服務處之個人電腦及筆記型電腦，均採用新世代CPU、固態混合硬碟，並增加記憶體容量，以提升電腦存取效能。另提供每位委員研究室個人電腦1台可擴充記憶體及繪圖卡1套，輔助委員國會辦公室辦理社交媒體事務及多媒體影音、圖片編輯所需。","本院院內資源入口網等相關資訊應用系統效能經檢測尚屬正常，因系統回應時間常受到當下個人電腦是否執行其他程式或其他因素等影響，本院若接獲使用者反應，即到現場進行系統效能原因分析，並適時調校系統，以符合使用者作業需求。","(五)於Ivod系統取得院會與委員會之相關影片檢討報告並附改善辦法：","本院議事轉播網際網路多媒體隨選視訊系統（IVOD系統）配合「立法院會議錄影錄音管理規則」第4條第2項規定：「他人發言之錄影、錄音不得要求複製，但經當事人書面同意者，不在此限。」之規範，目前系統僅提供委員本人自行下載發言影片。","二、歲出部分決議事項(二)「立法諮詢業務」凍結10萬元，說明如下：","由我國與美國、日本、韓國、德國及英國等5個國際上主要國家國會助理之聘用制度及權利義務情形之比較，獲致我國國會助理法制化之評估與可行方案如下：","(一)參考各國法例，委員多視為國會助理雇主：","我國或德美英日等國，基本上係將委員（議員）視為助理之雇主，國會助理之權利義務原則上係依委員（議員）與助理間簽訂之契約所規範，立法例上似無針對國會助理系統性或全面性之規範存在。","(二)為保用人彈性，目前作法尚合制度及可行","各國國會公費助理多由國會編列預算，再由國會議員自行聘用，係為保持其用人彈性，倘將上開事項法制化，相關薪資權責等勢必須如公務員等規定，規範密度較高，即薪資固定不得任意調整、嚴格限制不得兼職兼差、人數受員額總量限制、受贈財物、宴飲內容及參與政治或選舉活動均有限制等，明顯未符現況所需。","(三)配合需求運作，累積經驗俾研議相關方案","考量我國憲政體制仍在發展階段，現階段爰採取低密度立法以保留制度上彈性，未來待累積更多實務經驗，並配合委員需求及國會實務運作，以及參酌各國制度，持續進行通盤檢討滾動修正，並與時俱進地加強國會助理之工作環境及福利後，擬定符合我國國情之方案。","三、歲出部分決議事項(三)「一般建築及設備」凍結50萬元，說明如下：","(一)建置預算提案軟體：","為輔助本院審查中央政府總預算單位預算相關作業，本院業於112年5月建置「預算提案管理系統」（以下簡稱本系統），提供委員預算提案管理、支援委員會議事人員提案受理及審查作業，並將資料開放予民間團體加值應用。","本系統原訂於第10屆第8會期上線試辦，惟為配合行政院主計總處GBA新版預算編製系統試辦時程之規劃，爰本系統上線試辦時程調整至第11屆第2會期（113年8月）辦理。本系統功能包含中央政府總預算案單位預算資料匯入、委員與黨團預算提案管理、議事人員收案管理、委員會審查與黨團協商作業管理與提供開放資料等，本院預計於113年7月至8月向各黨團與各委員研究室辦理系統操作教育訓練。","(二)數位電話系統暨通訊設備汰換規劃：","本院「數位電話系統暨通訊設備汰換案」為賡續提供本院優質穩定之通信服務，規劃以通訊安全、提升電話交換機系統效能及供電穩定性為主要目的。本案將汰換電話交換機系統、不斷電系統、封閉網路設備、電話機（含數位話機、類比話機及網路話機）、院區行動分機系統（含行動分機、基地台及其線路）等設備。另在電話監聽防制方面，本系統利用數位訊號傳輸語音，確保內線通訊安全不被監聽；在安全監控管理方面，針對防止外部網路入侵、機房門禁、維護人員管理及電話交換機資料存取，均備有相應措施，以確保通訊安全及提升通話品質。","四、歲出部分決議事項(三十七)「公報業務」項下「公報行政」凍結500萬元，說明如下：","經查目前台灣原住民族語言具16族42種語言別，本院要聘用足額之原住民族語言通譯人員確有事實上之困難，且合格語言認證證照制度仍有待建立，以確保通譯品質。於制度建立前，本院遇有個案會議需要，可權宜試辦由委員自行推薦或另請原住民族委員會協助推薦適當人選方式辦理。就此，本院曾試辦定之原住民族語言同步翻譯服務機制，設備部分以租賃方式辦理，並完成相關測試，未來若有實際需要，可援例辦理。","本院於甄選職員時，皆於公告資格條件中載明「具原住者得優先考量」，積極招募通曉原住民族語言之人員，以擴大本院人才資源。本院為營造國議事轉播之友善收視環境，自第10屆第4會期起，於院會「國是論壇」及「行政院院長施政方針及施政報告、專案報告」，開始試辦透過同步聽打方式提供即時字幕，並自第5會期起將服務擴大至院會總質詢。目前同步聽打之專業人員均需具備乙級證照資格，且要求合約廠商優先僱用熟悉原住民族語之人才；若使用原住民族語言發言之委員質詢有進行同步口譯必要時，規劃藉由口譯方式，由同步聽打人員即時輸入字幕，提供全民收視。為落實以原住民族語言陳述意見之權利，本院將持續評估提供同步口譯服務所需之人力資源及軟硬體設備，隨時調整相應之配套，賡續規劃推動以原住民族語言問政發言之相關服務。"],["行政院人事行政總處書面資料：","行政院人事行政總處113年度單位預算解凍案報告","主席、各位委員：","大院審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院人事行政總處（以下簡稱本總處）歲出部分通過決議(二)第2目「人事行政之政策規劃執行及發展」凍結350萬元，俟向貴委員會提出書面報告後，始得動支。本總處業於本（113）年1月23日以總處主字第11380000192號函送大院書面報告在案。以下謹就辦理情形簡要說明，敬請指教。","一、服勤辦法宣導辦理情形及精進作為","本總處已於112年多次通函各主管機關落實服勤制度、分區舉辦服勤辦法宣導說明會、製作並持續更新服勤辦法相關事項Q&A供各機關實務運作之參考。","為精進宣導媒介，本總處本年自製勤休制度數位課程，已於本年3月28日上線並同日通函責成各主管機關要求所屬公務同仁參訓率至少達95%。另本年3至4月間於高雄、臺北及臺中辦理3場次宣導說明會，並赴新北市政府交通局進行實地訪視，亦透過人事主管會報、本總處參與各項訓練活動中納入服勤辦法相關課程（註：目前已辦理7班期，預計本年9月底前再增加辦理12班期）等多元管道宣導勤休制度之內涵，並提醒各機關勤休管理應注意事項。","二、特殊輪班輪休人員勤休新制管理之精進作為","本總處自112年起多次函請各輪班輪休人員主管機關落實勤休管理，及建置公務員勤休新制專區網頁，並已於112年9月間擇定工時較高之4個特殊輪班輪休機關（苗栗縣警察局、交通部民用航空局澎湖航空站、澎湖縣政府警察局、海洋委員會海巡署艦隊分署），會同各該主管機關就渠等機關勤休狀況進行實地訪視，透過與基層同仁座談，瞭解機關實務運作所遭遇問題，及時給予回應。","另本總處已於本年人事業務績效考核將「特殊輪班輪休人員服勤實施情形之檢討、創新作為與成效」列為考核項目，並預計於本年下半年度起賡續辦理實地訪視，以期各機關積極應對推動勤休制度所產生之問題，兼顧同仁健康及機關業務推展。","三、「公務人員個人資料服務網」服務績效","「公務人員個人資料服務網」係人事人員與公務人員之溝通資訊平臺，服務內容包含個人公務職涯資料查詢及維護、人事資料下載、個人權益查詢、人事業務線上申辦等。","112年服務達260萬人次、公務人員資料校對達57萬人次、獎勵令無紙化達140萬件、服務與在（離）職證明書申請達2萬3千件、生活津貼線上申請達2萬3千件、公務人員職涯資料查詢達110萬人次，已達到公務人員一站式服務之預設目標。","未來將持續推動機關人事作業電子化及文件無紙化、跨機關資訊整合、擴大公務人員權益相關服務等，以提供更優質之一站式公務（退休）人員服務。","四、健全軍公教調薪制度宜有法律或法律明確授權規定","軍人待遇條例第4條及第5條、公務人員俸給法第18條及教師待遇條例第15條，均已明訂軍公教人員俸（薪）給數額由行政院定之。軍公教員工通案待遇調整，本總處業建立制度化運作機制及評估程序，每年均蒐整經濟成長率、平均每人國民所得、消費者物價指數變動情形、民間企業薪資水準及政府財政狀況等相關指標之數據進行綜合評估，配合中央政府總預算案編列時程，擬具研析方案提軍公教員工待遇審議委員會審議後提出建議，再送請行政院做政策決定，並依中央政府總預算案審議程序，送請大院審查通過，且經總統公布後始生效力。","另本總處於本年3月列席大院業務報告已回應，軍公教員工待遇調整未來將朝向法制化方向規劃，刻正依中央行政機關法制作業規定，就政府機關人員年度通案待遇調整機制，研擬相關草案條文，俟完成草案研擬將徵詢中央及地方各主管機關、相關團體之意見，並辦理法律草案預告後，評估各界意見調整草案內容，報請行政院審查，期於113年底前送請大院審議。","五、積極研謀公務員居家辦公申請標準","為維繫機關的正常運作，本總處於嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎COVID-19期間，即積極推動居家辦公，嗣為兼顧機關人員工作與家庭平衡，於112年6月1日函頒「行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關（構）試辦居家辦公參考原則」，並於112年12月28日函知行政院與所屬中央及地方主管機關賡續試辦至114年12月31日止，提供各機關參考並研訂相關申請標準俾供遵循。本總處將持續運用多元管道宣導方式鼓勵各主管機關積極推動居家辦公。","六、評估修正中央政府機關總員額法","「中央政府機關總員額法」之制定，係為建立兼顧合理用人規模與彈性運用員額之總量管理機制，本總處已滾動檢討重新匡列各類員額合理規模，並於108年12月31日修正公布。又為應政府重點任務轉變並兼顧財政狀況，行政院（本總處）及二級主管機關近10年已陸續調整挹注機關員額，就業務運作及人力運用提供改善建議，未來將持續協助機關以多面向指標審視業務與組設及人力契合度，並優先於法定高限內總量調移員額，落實資源重分配及促使機關合理用人，如各該類員額高限確有不足，尚得依該法第4條第5項規定，在員額總數最高限之下彈性調整各類人員員額最高限。","七、比照護理師模式，研議警消（深）夜勤應有加成","公務人員（含警消人員）之加班費，依各機關加班費支給辦法規定，按月支薪俸、專業加給2項（主管人員另加計主管職務加給）之總和，除以240計算，均未有加成規定。另行政院業考量警消勤務特性另核給相關職（勤）務加給，並自112年7月1日起調增支給數額15%，每月支給7,760元至9,700元。又現行公立醫療機構護理（助產）人員夜班費及護理人員夜班費獎勵機制與超勤加班費夜間加成之性質與目的均不相同。審酌政府機關工作時間採輪班輪休性質之公務人員，尚有移民事務、空勤及監所人員等諸多類別，超勤加班費夜間加成仍需考量中央地方財政負擔及預算排擠效應，本總處會審慎評估。","本總處各項施政計畫係配合國家發展循序推動，均為業務實需，懇請各位委員支持並同意解凍，俾利各項業務之推動。謝謝！"],["法務部書面資料：","併案審查","(一)行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。","(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。","(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。","(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。書面報告","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","今天奉邀列席　大院貴委員會，就併案審查行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等案，代本部列席報告並備質詢，謹提供本部意見如下，敬請指教。","壹、前言","我國為亞太防制洗錢組織（Asia/Pacific Group on Money  Laundering，APG）之創始會員國，且本部身為行政院打詐綱領懲詐面向之主責機關，為因應我國洗錢犯罪國際洗錢防制標準之持續演進及我國洗錢犯罪型態之變化，並就我國於第三輪相互評鑑被指出之缺失進行改進，以期我國洗錢防制法除符合國際規範要求，亦契合本土需求，於面對新興洗錢犯罪時，具有監理面向以外之新利器，本部擬具《洗錢防制法》修正草案陳報行政院審查，經行政院於113年5月9日院會討論通過，並於同日以院臺打詐字第1135009570號函請大院審議。本次《洗錢防制法》修正草案一大重點係將新興洗錢犯罪手法入刑化，並新增特殊洗錢罪態樣，此既符合國際規範要求，亦為打擊詐騙之必要手段。","感謝各位委員長期關心我國於洗錢防制面向之努力及打擊詐欺犯罪議題，本部由衷表示敬佩之意，對於委員提案修法之目的均表贊同，以下謹就行政院函請審議之草案說明修正重點，並就委員所提法案之條文構成要件、立法體例之妥適性表示意見。","貳、行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案","本部本次參考防制洗錢金融行動工作組織（Financial  Action Task Force on Money Laundering，下稱FATF）建議、德國刑法、美國、英國及澳洲之洗錢防制法、南韓之「特定財務資訊之報告與使用法案」、香港之「打擊洗錢及恐怖分子資金籌集條例」，日本「犯罪收益移轉防止法」、英國之「犯罪所得法」等立法例，及參酌「聯合國打擊跨國有組織犯罪公約」與已具國內法性質之「聯合國反貪腐公約」，並綜合考量各機關之意見以契合實際業務及打擊本土新興犯罪之需求，進行洗錢防制法全文修正，重點如下：","一、修正洗錢行為定義，更全面及具體地涵蓋各種可能之洗錢手法。（修正條文第二條）","二、擴大特定犯罪範圍，以更有效因應不斷演變之洗錢犯罪型態。（修正條文第三條）","三、配合FATF詞彙表新增用語，修正本法「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」（修正條文第五條、第二十一條及第二十二條）；就從事交易受現金使用限制者之範圍授權法務部會同中央目的事業主管機關指定達「一定金額」者，並新增違反現金使用限制規定之法律效果。（修正條文第五條）","四、考量提供虛擬資產及第三方支付服務之事業或人員在洗錢活動中之高風險，以登記制、登錄制強化對該二類服務提供者之監管，並對違反而提供服務者課以刑事處罰。（修正條文第六條）","五、修正指定之非金融事業或人員違反規定之罰鍰上限，並增訂「得按次處罰」之規定。（修正條文第七條、第八條、第十條、第十二條及第十三條）","六、非信託業之信託受託人應向主管機關申報、更新申報信託基本資訊，及揭露在信託中之地位，違者處以罰鍰。（修正條文第十一條）","七、因應海關實務需求，增訂旅客或隨交通工具服務之人員出入境時攜帶或運送之標的未依規定申報之裁罰範圍。（修正條文第十四條）","八、增訂海關查獲未依規定申報或申報不實之物品之扣留，及得提供擔保申請撤銷扣留之規定。（修正條文第十五條）","九、增訂海關依修正條文第十四條規定之罰鍰處分，為防止受處分人逃避執行，得免提供擔保向法院聲請假扣押或假處分。（修正條文第十六條）","十、增訂我國受理大額及可疑交易申報、海關受理申報後通報之機關，執行資料分析、調取資料及分送分析結果之依據。（修正條文第十七條）","十一、為符罪刑相當原則，一般洗錢罪之刑度修正為以洗錢之財物或財產上利益是否達新臺幣（下同）1億元，區分不同刑度（1年以上7年以下有期徒刑、6月以上5年以下有期徒刑），並使洗錢罪之刑度與前置犯罪脫鉤，刪除現行不得科以超過其特定犯罪所定最重本刑之刑之規定。（修正條文第十九條）","十二、於特殊洗錢罪提高罰金刑上限（5千萬元），並增訂利用虛擬資產帳號或第三方支付帳號犯洗錢罪之刑事處罰（最重可處5年有期徒刑，得併科5千萬罰金）。（修正條文第二十條）","十三、提高法人罰金刑度，為鼓勵法人預防犯罪之發生，增訂免責規定。另增訂自首、自動繳回全部犯罪所得，及配合偵查使執法機關得以扣押全部洗錢之財物或財產上利益，或查獲其他正犯或共犯之減輕及免除其刑規定。（修正條文第二十三條）","十四、沒收範圍擴大，洗錢之財物或財產上利益，不問屬於犯罪行為人所有與否均沒收之，並刪除擴大利得沒收「以集團性或常習性方式」而犯之要件，澈底剝奪犯罪所得。（修正條文第二十五條）","十五、增訂簽署防制洗錢以外之條約或協定，得基於互惠原則，於締約雙方法律許可並經提供資訊方授權時，利用取得之資訊防制洗錢或打擊資恐。（修正條文第二十八條）","十六、增訂為偵辦洗錢犯罪，執法機關得執行控制下交付。（修正條文第二十九條）","參、本部對各法案之意見","一、有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","修正「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業」之文字與FATF之用語及範圍一致；第三方支付服務業者應滿足金融機構洗錢防制相關義務；明定融資性租賃業者、虛擬資產服務提供者、第三方支付服務業者以及線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者應建立洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記監理制度。","(二)本部意見","1.提案草案第5條部分：","(1)FATF於107年10月間將虛擬資產（Virtual Asset）相關活動納入洗錢防制規範，FATF修正40項建議之第15項建議及評鑑方法論，並於詞彙表新增「Virtual Asset（虛擬資產）」及「Virtual asset service provider, VASPs（虛擬資產服務提供者）」之定義。為使本法用語及規範範圍與FATF一致，本部所提本條草案已將第2項、第4項之「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」文字修正為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」。","(2)第三方支付服務業經本部會同經濟部以110年4月16日法檢字第11004510350號暨經商字第11002408730號函會銜報請行政院指定，經行政院以110年8月18日院臺法字第1100181600號令，依本條第4項規定，指定第三方支付服務業為本條第3項第5款規定之非金融事業或人員，並自即日生效。故本條草案第2項擬將第三方支付服務業者訂定為適用關於金融機構之規定，似有未妥。","(3)本部所提本條草案第5項，亦已配合「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」文字修正為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」，酌為文字修正。另有關「其他依業務特性、交易型態易為現金洗錢犯罪利用之事業或人員」，已為本條第3項第5款之範圍所包含，第三方支付服務業者則亦為本條第3項第5款所規範，而本條草案第5項亦已包含第3項，故毋庸再次贅述該等文字。又本部所提本條草案第5項已增訂授權法務部會同中央目的事業主管機關為本項指定之範圍，應包含「達一定金額以上」交易應使用現金以外之支付工具之指定。","(4)綜上，有關本條提案內容建請再酌。","2.提案草案第5條之1部分：","(1)有關辦理融資性租賃之事業或人員，現行洗錢防制法第5條第2項規定適用洗錢防制法關於金融機構之規定，又金融監督管理委員會（下稱金管會）於107年6月20日訂定有《辦理融資性租賃業務事業防制洗錢辦法》，該辦法第2條第2項規定辦理融資性租賃業務事業進行融資性租賃交易時，應執行確認客戶身分、加強確認客戶身分、持續監控交易及留存相關紀錄，且進行融資性租賃交易有大額交易、發現疑似洗錢或資恐交易之情形者，應向本部調查局申報，故該業別現行洗錢防制機制並非進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之登記。而線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者之中央目的事業主管機關數位發展部亦尚未就開業別研擬洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記制度。本條草案第1項、第2項、第3項研擬之內容就該二部分與現行法規不合，欠缺法律依據。","(2)有關虛擬資產服務提供者之洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記、第三方支付服務業之洗錢防制暨服務能量登錄，分別於《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第17條、《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第5條之1定有明文，毋庸於本條草案第2項重複規定。","(3)「廣告、業務招攬」並非《辦理融資性租賃業務事業防制洗錢辦法》第2條第1項第1款、《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1項第1款及《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1款所規定融資性租賃業務事業、虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業者所提供服務之範圍，亦非線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者所營業務，而係其他網際網路應用服務者、網際網路接取服務提供者、網際網路平台提供者、網際網路內容服務提供者或其他傳播媒體業者所提供之服務，本條草案第4項卻對融資性租賃業務事業、虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業、線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者從事廣告、業務招攬進行規範，似有未妥。","(4)綜上，有關本條提案內容建請再酌。","二、有關委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","修正「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業」之文字與FATF之用語及範圍一致；明定虛擬資產服務提供者與第三方支付服務提供者應完成洗錢防制法遵聲明，進行登記監理制度；增訂黑名單機制，要求主管機關公開違反者名單，並授權金融機構得以凍結違反本法規範之虛擬資產服務提供者之帳戶。","(二)本部意見","1.提案草案第5條部分：","(1)FATF於107年10月間將虛擬資產（Virtual Asset）相關活動納入洗錢防制規範，FATF修正40項建議之第15項建議及評鑑方法論，並於詞彙表新增「Virtual Asset（虛擬資產）」及「Virtual asset service provider, VASPs（虛擬資產服務提供者）」之定義。為使本法用語及規範範圍與FATF一致，本部所提本條草案已將本條第2項、第4項之「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」文字修正為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」。","(2)金管會依據本條第1項第18款規定，以104年6月5日金管銀票字第10440002670號函，指定電子票證發行機構及電子支付機構為本條第1項所稱之金融機構，並自即日生效。又金融機構防制洗錢辦法第2條第1款第4目亦規定，其他經金管會指定之金融機構，包括電子支付機構。","(3)又第三方支付服務業經法務部會同經濟部以110年4月16日法檢字第11004510350號暨經商字第11002408730號函會銜報請行政院指定，經行政院以110年8月18日院臺法字第1100181600號令，依本條第4項規定，指定第三方支付服務業為本條第3項第5款規定之非金融事業或人員，並自即日生效。","(4)本部所提本條草案第5項，亦已配合「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」文字修正為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」，酌為文字修正。另有關「其他依業務特性、交易型態易為現金洗錢犯罪利用之事業或人員」，已為本條第3項第5款之範圍所包含，而本條草案第5項亦已包含第3項，故毋庸再次贅述該等文字。又本部所提本條草案第5項已增訂授權本部會同中央目的事業主管機關為本項指定之範圍，應包含「達一定金額以上」交易應使用現金以外之支付工具之指定。","(5)綜上，有關本條提案內容建請再酌。","2.提案草案第6條之1部分：","(1)本條草案第1項規定虛擬資產服務提供者及第三方支付服務提供者未完成洗錢防制登記，或境外設立者未依我國公司法完成公司或分公司設立登記，不得在我國境內進行「虛擬資產與第三方支付服務、廣告、業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務」，然「廣告、業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務」並非《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1項第1款及《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1款所規定虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業者所提供服務之範圍，而係其他網際網路應用服務者、網際網路接取服務提供者、網際網路平台提供者、網際網路內容服務提供者或其他傳播媒體業者所提供之服務，是否宜列為虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業者所從事活動之範疇，似屬有疑。況若虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業者未完成前述登記而進行廣告、業務招攬及擔任投資顧問與委託投資業務，本條草案後面項次亦未規範有何法律效果，故本條草案第1項有關「廣告、業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務」等規定，是否有規範必要，容請再酌。","(2)有關虛擬資產服務提供者之洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記、第三方支付服務業之洗錢防制暨服務能量登錄，分別於《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第17條、《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第5條之1定有明文，毋庸於本條草案第2項重複規定。未為洗錢防制登記、服務能量登錄，中央目的事業主管機關可依洗錢防制法第6條第4項科以裁罰。","(3)本條草案第1項及第3項均有「虛擬資產平台及交易服務」、「虛擬資產場外交易服務」之區分，有關「虛擬資產場外交易服務」之納管，應係欲使個人幣商亦受規範，然第4項科以刑責之部分，係基於違反第1項之違反而處罰，第4項卻又無「虛擬資產平台及交易服務」、「虛擬資產場外交易服務」之區分。又若對照本條草案第6項規定「法人犯第四項之罪者」之處罰，既謂係法人亦可犯之，即非發生於個人幣商之情形。故本條草案第1項、第3項、第4項、第6項似缺乏體系一致性，建請再酌。","(4)本條草案第5項亦有前述未如同第1項區分「虛擬資產場外交易服務」之情形。又所謂金融機構對於違反前項（應係指違反第1項）之虛擬資產服務提供者，「得以暫停或限制違反者帳戶、帳號之全部或部分功能，或逕予關閉」，由本項文字內容，尚難理解虛擬資產服務提供者與金融機構限制帳戶、帳號功能間之關聯性為何。","(5)綜上，有關本條提案內容建請再酌。","三、有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","修正洗錢行為態樣定義；建立特定業別之洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記之洗錢防制監管制度。","(二)本部意見","1.提案草案第2條部分：","本條草案第1款內容既同德國刑法261條第1項為「掩飾型」洗錢犯罪之規定，而德國刑法將之定性為「抽象危險犯」，亦即行為只要符合構成要件所描述之事實，即可認定具有該抽象危險，則是否仍宜以特定意圖為犯罪主觀構成要件，建請再酌。","2.提案草案第3條部分：","為增強對洗錢風險之防制，具高洗錢風險之犯罪類型，均宜考慮列為本法所稱之「特定犯罪」，故建請就本條草案之規範範圍是否足夠，再予斟酌。","3.提案草案第5條部分：","(1)FATF於107年10月間將虛擬資產（Virtual Asset）相關活動納入洗錢防制規範，FATF修正40項建議之第15項建議及評鑑方法論，並於詞彙表新增「Virtual Asset（虛擬資產）」及「Virtual asset service provider,VASPs（虛擬資產服務提供者）」之定義。為使本法用語及規範範圍與FATF一致，本部所提本條草案已將本條第2項、第4項之「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」文字修正為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」。","(2)第三方支付服務業經本部會同經濟部以110年4月16日法檢字第11004510350號暨經商字第11002408730號函會銜報請行政院指定，經行政院以110年8月18日院臺法字第1100181600號令，依本條第4項規定，指定第三方支付服務業為本條第3項第5款規定之非金融事業或人員，並自即日生效。故本條草案第2項擬將第三方支付服務業者訂定為適用關於金融機構之規定，似有未妥。","(3)本部所提本條草案第5項，亦已配合「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業」文字修正為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」，酌為文字修正。另有關「其他依業務特性、交易型態易為現金洗錢犯罪利用之事業或人員」，已為本條第3項第5款之範圍所包含，第三方支付服務業者則亦為本條第3項第5款所規範，而本條草案第5項亦已包含第3項，故毋庸再次贅述該等文字。又本部所提本條草案第5項已增訂授權本部會同中央目的事業主管機關為本項指定之範圍，應包含「達一定金額以上」交易應使用現金以外之支付工具之指定。","(4)綜上，有關本條提案內容建請再酌。","4.提案草案第5條之1部分：","(1)有關辦理融資性租賃之事業或人員，現行洗錢防制法第5條第2項規定適用洗錢防制法關於金融機構之規定，又金管會於107年6月20日訂定有《辦理融資性租賃業務事業防制洗錢辦法》，該辦法第2條第2項規定辦理融資性租賃業務事業進行融資性租賃交易時，應執行確認客戶身分、加強確認客戶身分、持續監控交易及留存相關紀錄，且進行融資性租賃交易有大額交易、發現疑似洗錢或資恐交易之情形者，應向本部調查局申報，故該業別現行洗錢防制機制並非進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之登記。而線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者之中央目的事業主管機關數位發展部亦尚未就開業別研擬洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記制度。本條草案第1項、第2項研擬之內容就該二部分與現行法規不合，欠缺法律依據。","(2)有關虛擬資產服務提供者之洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記、第三方支付服務業之洗錢防制暨服務能量登錄，分別於《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第17條、《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第5條之1定有明文，毋庸於本條草案第2項重複規定。","(3)「廣告、業務招攬」並非《辦理融資性租賃業務事業防制洗錢辦法》第2條第1項第1款、《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1項第1款及《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1款所規定融資性租賃業務事業、虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業者所提供服務之範圍，亦非線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者所營業務，而係其他網際網路應用服務者、網際網路接取服務提供者、網際網路平台提供者、網際網路內容服務提供者或其他傳播媒體業者所提供之服務，本條草案第3項至第5項卻對融資性租賃業務事業、虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業、線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者從事廣告、業務招攬進行規範，是否妥適，建請再酌。","(4)綜上，有關本條提案內容建請再酌。","5.提案草案第5條之2部分：","「廣告、業務招攬」並非《辦理融資性租賃業務事業防制洗錢辦法》第2條第1項第1款、《虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1項第1款及《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第2條第1款所規定融資性租賃業務事業、虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業者所提供服務之範圍，亦非線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者所營業務，而係其他網際網路應用服務者、網際網路接取服務提供者、網際網路平台提供者、網際網路內容服務提供者或其他傳播媒體業者所提供之服務，本條草案卻對境外之融資性租賃業務事業、虛擬資產業者、第三方支付服務業、線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者於我國境內從事廣告、業務招攬進行規範，是否妥適，建請再酌。","6.提案草案7條之1部分：","金融機構及指定非金融機構事業或人員各有中央目的事業主管機關，且有關各國資恐防制制裁名單均公告且更新於本部網站之「公告制裁名單專區」，而指定之非金融機構人員有無洗錢犯罪前科等適格性審查，係由主管機關函請法務部查詢，則是否適宜及有必要為確認是否名列各國制裁名單、是否有洗錢相關犯罪前科而由本部建置平台，建請再酌。","7.提案草案第10條之1部分：","本條草案與本部日前經行政院院會通過送請大院審議之洗錢防制法修正草案第11條內容大致相符。","8.提案草案第11條部分：","現行條文第2項第3款「其他有具體事證任有洗錢及資恐高風險之國家或地區」之彈性規定，使我國可依具體事證認定何謂「洗錢或資恐高風險國家或地區」，且現行條文內容亦已包含「依國際防制洗錢組織公告定之」之範圍，是以就本條草案建請再酌。","9.提案草案第12條部分：","本條草案與本部日前經行政院院會通過送請大院審議之洗錢防制法修正草案第14條內容相符。","10.提案草案第12條之1部分：","本條草案與本部日前經行政院院會通過送請大院審議之洗錢防制法修正草案第15條內容相符。","11.提案草案第14條部分：","本條草案規定特定犯罪所得達1億元以上者，科以較長有期徒刑，固較符合罪刑相當原則，然刑度由6月以上5年以下提高至3年以上10年以下，罰金部分則由500萬元以下提高至5000萬元以下，是否符合罪責相當性？建請再酌。況「特定犯罪所得」與「洗錢規模」乃不同概念，本條草案立法說明第2點卻等同視之，建請再酌。","12.提案草案第15條部分：","相較於此提案版本其他草案條文有修正罰金刑度，本條草案卻未修正，則是否具嚇阻性，建請再酌。又本條草案第1項第1款將與收入顯不相當列為犯罪構成要件之一，恐造成富人自始排除成立本罪可能性之不公平現象。","13.提案草案第15條之2部分：","刑事不起訴處分之認定，與無正當理由交付、提供帳戶（號）而被裁處性質為行政處分之告誡，二者所要處理之事實類型不同，前者主要個案事實為「主觀上具有幫助詐欺、幫助洗錢之犯意」而構成幫助詐欺、幫助洗錢等罪嫌或本條第3項之刑事責任，而裁處告誡之個案事實係要處理「主觀上明知自己交付、提供帳戶或帳號」，然其交付、提供不具正當理由之情形。因此二者構成要件亦不相同，並非刑事不起訴處分確定，即代表行為人交付、提供帳戶、帳號有正當理由。本條草案建請再酌。","14.提案草案第16條部分：","(1)本條草案立法說明第一點表示加重法人責任係參考食品安全衛生管理法、水污染防治法、空氣污染防制法等規定，然該等法律係對法人科以各相關刑責之10倍以下罰金，並非本條草案所擬具之20倍以下罰金。","(2)本條草案於犯罪行為人自首或自白之情形，減輕或免除其刑之標準似不明確，且於自首部分，未區別犯罪行為態樣，規定犯第14條至第15條之2之罪而自首者，一律於符合繳回全部犯罪所得，使執法機關得以查扣財物或財產上利益，或查獲其他正犯或共犯時，均有減輕或免除其刑之適用，是否妥適，建請再酌。","15.提案草案第17條部分：","金融機構及指定之非金融事業或人員對於可疑交易申報之免除業務上應保守秘密義務，於本法第10條已有規定。又各金融機構或DNFBP有自行落實客戶盡職調查之義務，不應仰賴機構間或從業人員彼此間對客戶之資訊分享。因此本條草案內容建請再酌。","16.提案草案第18條部分：","本條草案第1項將沒收範圍擴大為洗錢所涉之財物或財產上利益「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」均沒收，然卻僅適用於犯第14條之罪，而未包含第15條，恐有規範不足之處，建請再酌。","17.提案草案第21條部分：","本條草案與本部日前經行政院院會通過送請大院審議之洗錢防制法修正草案第28條內容相符。","18.提案草案第21條之1部分：","本條草案與本部日前經行政院院會通過送請大院審議之洗錢防制法修正草案第29條內容相符。","肆、結語","行政院已於113年5月9日通過《洗錢防制法》修正草案，該法案兼顧我國國情及國際規範，為我國打擊新興詐欺、洗錢等犯罪，及面對APG第四輪相互評鑑時可再創佳績之重要武器，因此期能於本會期完成修法，以展現政府遏制不法及促使金流透明以接軌國際之決心。","以上報告，敬請","主席及各位委員指教。"],["司法院書面資料：","併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案書面報告。","主席、各位委員、各位先進：","今天　貴院司法及法制委員會會議併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案，本院奉邀前來列席，深感榮幸，茲就本次會議，與本院業務有關部分，提出意見說明如下，敬請指教：","壹、行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」部分：","一、本次行政院函請審議之洗錢防制法草案，為全面性的修正，包括洗錢行為定義及特定犯罪範圍等有關洗錢防制法之基礎，增訂提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付之洗錢防制登記、洗錢防制及服務能量登錄制度，提高違法行為之行政或刑事處罰，修正沒收要件，增訂打擊洗錢犯罪之偵查手段等，有完善洗錢防制之效。","二、於主責機關法務部研議及行政院審議洗錢防制法草案期間，本院均有參與，並就與本院業務相關且易生爭議部分提出意見，所提意見已獲採納。行政院函請貴院審議之洗錢防制法草案，為提案機關政策方向，本院尊重提案機關及貴院之決定。","貳、針對委員提案重新定義洗錢行為之定義及特定犯罪範圍，將虛擬資產相關活動納入洗錢防制範圍，明定融資性租賃業者、虛擬資產服務提供者、第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者應建立洗錢防制制度，並以登記方式加以管理等部分","何種事業機構應納入洗錢防制法之範圍？所處位階為何？宜考量立法目的、執法量能、實際效果及對公私部門的影響。本院尊重貴院之決定。","參、針對委員提案修正洗錢罪、特殊洗錢罪及增訂非法提供洗錢高風險服務罪等刑事處罰部分","關於現行法第14條洗錢罪修正部分，如以「特定犯罪所得」為3年以上10年以下有期徒刑之加重要件，恐與現行法第4條第1項所稱之特定犯罪所得混淆，亦即究竟第14條之加重要件，究係指前置犯罪之所得抑或洗錢罪本身之犯罪規模，恐生爭議。又洗錢犯罪侵害之法益固然獨立於前置犯罪之外，然我國所列前置犯罪範圍非狹，法定刑幅度寬廣（例如刑法第339條第1項可以量處罰金、拘役、有期徒刑2月至5年），若洗錢罪加重後之最低法定刑為3年以上，是否符合罪刑相當原則，宜請再酌。再者，法定刑3年以上之罪，一旦起訴即為強制辯護案件，且可能需以合議庭為審判組織，訴訟程序繁瑣，司法資源耗費，對於當事人及司法機關均構成壓力，是否適當，敬請斟酌。","關於修正特殊洗錢罪部分，坊間有非公務員之財產來源不明罪之稱，此等立法宜考量立法目的、執法量能、實際效果及對公私部門的影響，法務部在研議後，已限縮修正內容如行政院函請審議之草案。本院尊重貴院之決定。","肆、就台灣民眾黨黨團擬具之院總字第20號委員提案11004478號關係文書部分：","一、草案第10條之1第5項規定：「違反第一項至第三項規定及『前項所訂辦法者』，由……，處……以下罰鍰」。而同條第4項則規定：「第一項所定……及第三項應揭露之資訊範圍、程序、方式及『其他應遵循事項』之辦法，由……定之……。」是以，得依第10條之1第5項規定裁處行政罰者，包括違反同條第4項所稱「其他應遵循事項」，惟其內容尚非明確。為符合明確性原則之要求，建請明白列舉具體事由及項目，俾使受規範者得充分預見。","二、草案第10條之1第3項規定：「受託人以信託財產『逾』金融機構及指定之非金融事業或人員建立業務關係時……」其中『逾』是否為『與』之誤繕，建請併予釐清。","最後，本院再次對　貴院費心修法，表達感佩之意。以上報告，敬請各位委員、先進指教，謝謝各位。"],["財政部書面資料：","併案審查行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」等4案之說明","主席、各位委員先進，大家好：","今日貴委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」等4案，謹就涉本部（關務）業務部分簡要說明，敬請指教。","行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」第14條至第16條涉關務業務，修正重點包括：","一、增訂旅客或隨交通工具服務之人員出入境攜帶或以運送方式寄送外幣、香港或澳門發行之貨幣及新臺幣、有價證券、黃金或其他物品，未依規定申報之裁罰範圍，限於超過規定金額部分。","二、增訂海關查獲未依規定申報或申報不實物品之扣留，及得提供擔保申請撤銷扣留之法據。","三、增訂海關對於有價證券、黃金、物品未依規定申報或申報不實者所為之罰鍰處分，為防止受處分人逃避執行，得免提供擔保向法院聲請假扣押或假處分，以利實務執行。","近3年海關對旅客入出國境超額攜帶洗錢防制物品之查緝成效為184件（其中現鈔計新臺幣9,764萬元、黃金計28公斤、珍珠鑽石飾品計3個）。本次修法使相關裁罰範圍、扣留及保全處分之法令依據更臻明確，本部將賡續積極配合執行洗錢防制業務。","以上報告，敬請各位委員指教並予支持，謝謝！"],["衛生福利部書面資料：","「洗錢防制法修正草案」等案書面報告","主席、各位委員女士、先生：","今天　大院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會召開全體委員會議，本部承邀列席報告，深感榮幸。茲就洗錢防制法修正草案，提出專案報告。敬請各位委員不吝惠予指教：","壹、為防範金融犯罪及其他重大犯罪，洗錢防制法於85年10月23日制定公布後6個月正式施行，惟近年來社會經濟環境快速變遷，洗錢防制法雖經歷年來數次修正仍有未盡之處，爰本次就該法修正草案提供本部建議。","貳、對於各委員提案版本，本部意見如下：","有關本次洗錢防制法修正草案中屬本部權管法規部分，食品安全衛生管理法中針對有害之食品或食品添加物；兒童及少年性剝削防制條例中針對有對價之性交或猥褻行為者、無正當理由持有、散布兒童或少年之性影像等，加入洗錢防制法所稱特定犯罪，本部尊重各委員提案版本。","另有關警政主管機關應會同社會福利主管機關，建立個案通報機制部分，本部亦配合辦理。","參、本部目前積極配合推動洗錢防制法：有關洗錢防制業務，本部均配合行政院洗錢防制辦公室之規劃與行政作為，提供醫療財團法人及社福法人依據財團法人法辦理之相關資訊。","本部承　大院各委員之指教及監督，在此敬致謝忱，並祈各位委員繼續予以支持。"],["數位發展部書面資料：","行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案書面報告","主席、各位委員及與會嘉賓：","今天應邀列席委員會，數位發展部（以下簡稱數發部）針對行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案，謹就涉及本部業務部分向各位報告：","數發部於112年7月啟動第三方支付服務業能量登錄制度，要求申請業者提出洗錢防制及法遵聲明書始能登錄，並審查其人力配置與素質、實績、執行管理能力、財務狀況等項目。與金管會達成部會聯防共識，未先完成能量登錄之第三方支付業者，銀行在其開戶時就不會受理；若是銀行現有客戶，未申請能量登錄之業者，銀行將會視為高風險不再提供虛擬帳戶服務。並已完成修訂《第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法》第5之1條，第三方支付服務業應依本部指定之程序及方式，申請辦理洗錢防制暨服務能量登錄；其經審查通過者，由本部通知並予公告。","截至113年5月23日止，送件申請登錄業者總計81家，通過審查業者計53家，廢止登錄1家，審查後尚待補件業者計15家，未通過業者計10家；尚在資格審查中業者計2家。","鑒於目前檢警調單位對於受詐民眾第一時間提供之虛擬帳號，無法逕行得知所屬之第三方支付服務業業者，仍須先請銀行查詢，再由銀行回報所屬業者後，檢警單位再行通知第三方支付業者，對於受詐款項進行流向回報及圈存，在查詢期間可能受詐款項已遭犯罪集團提領，款項無法追回。數發部已建置「第三方支付服務業虛擬帳號查詢平臺」，彙整能量登錄公告業者虛擬帳號銀行代碼、識別碼、主要聯絡人、電話、傳真及Email等，建立第三方支付業者與檢警調快速溝通管道，可協助檢警調單位更快速查找虛擬帳號所屬第三方支付業者，今年3月上線測試至今高檢署、刑事局及調查局等檢警調機關已查詢百餘筆涉詐案件之虛擬帳號。","雖然第三方支付的登錄制度已屬類特許制度，基於洗錢防制目的之管理，更進一步於行政院版洗錢防制法修正草案第6條增訂：第三方支付服務之事業或人員未向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防制及服務能量登錄，不得提供第三方支付服務。境外設立之提第三方支付服務之事業或人員非依公司法辦理公司或分公司設立登記，並完成洗錢防制及服務能量登錄者，不得在我國境內提供第三方支付服務。違反規定者將處二年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新臺幣五百萬元以下罰金。","至於台灣民眾黨提案，於洗錢防制法第五條之一納入線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者洗錢防制登記；目前數位發展部數位產業署針對遊戲點數之產業管理，定期邀集行政院洗防辦、檢警與5大遊戲點數業者召開阻詐執行成效會議，建立四大管理措施，分別有「遊戲點卡業者端導入儲值OTP驗證」、「遊戲端針對高風險帳號進行儲值監控」、「超商端單店單日限額」與「增加客服人力配合165聯防通報」；另外，遊戲點數業者提出「遊戲點數延遲入點機制」與「自動鎖卡平台」讓遊戲點數正式入點前，若即時發現遭受詐騙，得透過自動鎖卡平台輸入鎖定該遊戲點數序號並至原通路進行退費，目前主要遊戲點數業者均配合執行相關阻詐措施，遊戲點數詐騙案件量已自112年單月最高1,600件，下降至113年4月份100餘件，遊戲點數詐騙案件量已有相當控制，具階段性成效。另行政院所擬詐欺犯罪防制條例草案，已納入網路連線遊戲及遊戲點數等業者，課予業者防詐義務。","考量遊戲點數詐騙之成因並非源自遊戲玩家利用遊戲點數進行詐騙，於遊戲玩家進行KYC並無法阻斷詐騙案件之發生，且遊戲KYC對整體遊戲產業及我國1,500萬遊戲人口影響甚廣，需依消費習慣及產業特性進行溝通以取得社會共識；考量目前遊戲點數詐騙案件量已大幅下降，數位發展部數位產業署將持續致力於防詐作為，以後續評估是否納入洗錢防制法。","綜上，敬請委員支持行政院版本，數發部為因應第三方支付服務業的新興商業模式，將定期檢視相關法規政策，必要時將進行滾動式修正及調整，更將持續與第三方支付服務產業攜手合作，共同打擊詐騙、促進產業發展，建立安全、可信賴的第三方支付服務產業生態。","以上報告，敬請　指教。","謝謝各位委員聆聽與指教。"],["金融監督管理委員會書面資料：","行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」、郭委員國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」等案書面報告","主席、各位委員先進，大家好：","今天貴委員會審查行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」、郭委員國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」等案，承貴委員會邀請提出報告，至感榮幸。以下謹就本會對於各委員所提版本之意見，向各位委員報告，敬請各位委員指教。","壹、有關行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」","本會已參與歷次法務部洗錢防制法修正草案研商會議及行政院審查會議，爰對行政院提案版本無意見。","貳、有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」一案","一、本案黨團建議之修正草案第五條及第五條之一版本，與行政院提案版本第五條及第六條相較，主要差異包括：","(一)增訂融資性租賃事業（含境外業者）洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記制度（下稱洗防登記制度）（草案第五條之一）。","(二)增列主管機關就洗防登記申請之審查期間規定（草案第五條之一第一項）。","(三)增列未完成登記卻進行廣告、業務招攬者將有刑事責任之規定（草案第五條之一第四項）。","二、有關比照第三方支付服務業及虛擬資產業，於第五條之一增訂融資性租賃事業（含境外業者）洗防登記制度一節，建議採行政院提案版本，理由如下：","(一)依110年國家洗錢資恐及資武擴風險評估報告，融資性租賃事業列為中風險產業，與第三方支付服務業、虛擬資產業等屬高風險或非常高風險，須建立洗防登記制度，以有效控管風險之情形不同。立法強制規定融資租賃事業非經登記不得提供服務，並課以刑事責任，對比較彈性化之民間融資借貸雙方之供需有衝擊性影響。","(二)本會已就從事融資性租賃交易之業者進行相關防制洗錢監理措施。依「洗錢防制法」及「辦理融資性租賃業務事業防制洗錢辦法」（下稱融資租賃洗防辦法）相關規定，融資性租賃業務事業於進行融資性租賃交易時，應執行確認客戶身分、加強確認客戶身分、持續監控交易及留存相關紀錄等防制洗錢措施。且其每二年應製作風險評估報告，並應於完成或更新風險評估報告時，將該報告函報本會備查，本會均逐案審核檢視該等業者所報風險評估報告，並給予改善建議。","(三)目前外界關切之先買後付（BNPL）及中古車融資等業務，均非屬於融資租賃洗防辦法所納管之融資性租賃交易，尚無法藉由增訂融資性租賃事業之洗防登記制度，以強化該等消費性融資業務管理。就融資租賃公司辦理消費性融資業務可能衍生之問題，目前各部會依權責均有相關管理機制，台北市租賃商業同業公會亦已訂定BNPL及中古車融資之自律規範，本會將持續與經濟部、財政部、行政院消費者保護處等相關單位合作，賡續策進保障消費者權益相關作為。","(四)綜上，建議採行行政院提案版本，無須增訂融資性租賃事業洗防登記制度。","三、另有關第五條之一涉及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員（以下稱VASP）部分，考量委員建議版本與行政院提案版本之前開差異涉及防制洗錢金融行動工作組織（以下稱FATF）相關規範之遵循及實務作業需要，爰建議採行政院提案版本，理由如下：","(一)有關增列主管機關就洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之審查期間規定一節：現行「虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法」第十七條已明文規定從事虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業應向本會完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明，似無須重複訂定相關規範。另考量申請人之資格條件及檢附文件之完整度不相同，本會需個案就申請人及其負責人、實質受益人之適格性，業務章程、作業辦法及內部控制制度文件之妥適性及配置適足之洗錢防制人員等項目進行審查，所需期日宜視個案狀況決定之。","(二)有關增列未完成登記卻進行廣告、業務招攬者將有刑事責任之規定一節：考量FATF已明定VASP係為他人從事下列五種虛擬通貨相關活動：(一)虛擬通貨與法定貨幣間之交換；(二)虛擬通貨間之交換；(三)虛擬通貨之移轉；(四)虛擬通貨之保管、管理或提供相關管理工具；(五)虛擬通貨發行或銷售之相關金融服務，爰如將FATF定義之VASP以外之事項納入洗錢防制登記制之範疇，恐與FATF定義不一致。","(三)綜上，考量委員建議版本與行政院提案版本之前開差異涉及FATF相關規範之遵循及實務作業考量，行政院提案版本已考量上開因素，本案建議仍以行政院送立法院修正草案辦理。","參、有關郭委員國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」一案","一、本案委員建議之修正草案第五條及第六條之一版本，與行政院提案版本第五條及第六條相較，主要差異包括：","(一)將「電子支付業」納入所列舉之金融機構（草案第五條）。","(二)依業務內容將VASP定義為「虛擬資產平台及交易服務、虛擬資產場外交易服務提供者」（草案第六條之一第一項）。","(三)增列辦理登記後始得進行廣告、業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務之規定（草案第六條之一第一項）。","(四)明定主管機關就洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之審查期間規定（草案第六條之一第二項）。","(五)增訂「黑名單」機制，要求主管機關公開違反者名單，並授權金融機構得以凍結違反本法規範之虛擬資產服務提供者之帳戶之規定（草案第六條之一第五項）。","二、有關第五條第一項增訂第十八款「電子支付業」一節：","(一)查電子支付機構管理條例自104年5月3日施行，本會發布104年6月5日金管銀票字第10440002670號令，指定電子支付機構為洗錢防制法第五條第一項第十八款所定之其他經目的事業主管機關指定之金融機構。","(二)另依112年12月6日修正之金融消費者保護法第三條規定，金融服務業包括電子支付業，電子支付業係指電子支付機構管理條例第三條第一款之電子支付機構。","(三)承上，本次將電子支付業納入本條所列舉之金融機構後，本會將配合辦理廢止上開104年6月5日令。","三、有關第六條之一涉及VASP部分，考量委員建議版本與行政院提案版本之前開差異涉及FATF相關規範之遵循、實務作業需要及是否能達成立法目的，爰建議採行政院提案版本，理由如下：","(一)有關將VASP定義為「虛擬資產平台及交易服務、虛擬資產場外交易服務提供者」一節：考量FATF已明確將VASP定義為「提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」，為使本法用語及規範範圍與FATF一致，行政院提案版本已參考FATF用語給予VASP明確之定義。","(二)增列辦理登記後始得進行廣告、業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務之規定一節，理由參見「貳、三、(二)」。","(三)明定主管機關就洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之審查期間規定一節，理由參見「貳、三、(一)」。","(四)增訂「黑名單」機制一節：本會目前已將完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之業者名單公布於證券期貨局網站上，外界已有管道知悉合法業者之資訊，另考量違反第一項登記制規定者將有第四項之刑事責任，係由司法機關進行審判，爰主管機關如俟司法判決有罪確定後，再行公布相關犯罪者名單，於時效上似已無達成立法目的。","(五)綜上，考量委員建議版本與行政院提案版本之前開差異涉及FATF相關規範之遵循、實務作業需要及是否能達成立法目的，行政院提案版本已考量上開因素，本案建議仍以行政院送立法院修正草案辦理。","肆、有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」一案","一、本案黨團建議之修正草案第五條之一、第五條之二及第十條之一版本，與行政院提案版本第六條及第十一條相較，主要差異包括：","(一)增訂融資性租賃事業（含境外）洗防登記制度（草案第五條之一、第五條之二）。","(二)增列主管機關就洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之審查期間規定（草案第五條之一第一項）。","(三)增列未完成登記卻進行廣告、業務招攬者之處罰及刑事責任規定（草案第五條之一第三項）。","(四)增訂金融機構擔任信託受託人之相關義務（草案第十條之一）。","二、有關比照第三方支付服務業及虛擬資產業，於第五條之一及第五條之二增訂融資性租賃事業（含境外業者）洗防登記制度等節，建議採行政院提案版本，理由參見「貳、二、」。","三、有關第五條之一涉及VASP部分，考量黨團建議版本與行政院提案版本之前開差異涉及FATF相關規範之遵循及實務作業需要，爰建議採行政院提案版本，理由如下：","(一)有關增列主管機關就洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之審查期間規定一節，理由參見「貳、三、(一)」。","(二)有關增列未完成登記卻進行廣告、業務招攬者之處罰及刑事責任規定一節，理由參見「貳、二、(二)」。","(三)綜上，考量委員建議版本與行政院提案版本之前開差異涉及FATF相關規範之遵循及實務作業考量，行政院提案版本已考量上開因素，本案建議仍以行政院送立法院修正草案辦理。","四、有關第十條之一增訂金融機構擔任信託受託人之相關義務一節：","(一)查「洗錢防制法」第七條、第八條規定已要求金融機構（含辦理營業信託之信託業）應進行確認客戶身分程序（包括實質受益人之審查）及紀錄保存，並就違反前揭規定者，訂有相關罰則。爰無須再課予本條第一項之義務。","(二)再者，以營業信託為例，係由銀行或證券商兼營，且證券商擔任受託人時，其信託財產為金錢者，應依「證券投資信託事業證券投資顧問事業證券商兼營信託業務管理辦法」第九條規定，以專戶存放於銀行並應以信託財產名義表彰，無須再課予本條第三項之義務。","(三)綜上，建議採行行政院提案版本，無須將金融機構（含信託業）納入本條予以重複規範。","伍、結語","本次行政院函請審議之「洗錢防制法修正草案」，其中第六條增訂VASP洗錢防制登記制度，將可強化對VASP洗錢防制之管理。","以上報告，敬請各位委員惠予指教與支持，並祝各位委員身體健康，萬事如意。謝謝！"],["國家通訊傳播委員會書面資料：","行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案書面報告","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","本會奉邀列席貴委員會就行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案之審查會議，並提出書面報告如下，敬請指教：","為解決近年來國內詐騙案件叢生並大量運用各類洗錢手段之問題，並落實以我國風險為基礎之洗錢防制措施，針對我國實務常見之洗錢犯罪類型於本次修正提案予以規範，提升執法效能。本次「洗錢防制法修正草案」等4案，主要增訂虛擬資產服務提供者及第三方支付服務提供者之洗錢防制登記、洗錢防制及服務能量登錄制度，明定其法令遵循義務；部分提案復修正洗錢定義、洗錢犯罪之構成要件及提高刑度，中央目的事業主管機關並得命網際網路平臺提供者等業者移除未落實洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之境外業者之相關網頁資料。期藉由本次修法，有效打擊洗錢犯罪。","為因應我國實務常見之洗錢犯罪類型，本次修法杜絕以新興手法包裝進行詐騙及洗錢之管道，科以刑責強化監管，有效瓦解詐欺犯罪集團。本會支持行政院版本修正草案，使政府打詐作為更具成效，共同建立完善之洗錢防制制度。","以上報告，敬請","主席及各位委員指教，謝謝！"],["內政部警政署書面資料：","「洗錢防制法修正草案」書面資料","主席、各位委員、先進，大家好：","首先，感謝各位委員對於洗錢防制作為之重視與關心，本署敬呈以下報告，敬請各位委員惠予指導。","壹、修正草案與警政相關部分","本次洗錢防制法修正草案內容，所擬條文大多為符合亞太防制洗錢組織建議事項，以應國家接受國際防制洗錢評鑑工作所需，其中增訂第6條「對提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務之事業或人員未完成洗錢防制登記、服務能量登錄而提供服務者之刑事罰則」部分與警政相關，將有助於提升警察機關打擊洗錢犯罪之效能。","貳、現況說明","一、虛擬資產因具有匿名及快速移轉特性，廣為犯罪集團所用，常見涉及虛擬資產之詐騙案件手法如下：先介紹被害人至假投資網站，要求被害人向扮演幣商犯嫌洽購泰達幣，為取信被害人，犯嫌悉採面交方式且告知被害人自己僅是買賣虛擬資產之合法商人、提醒其投資應謹慎小心等話語，營造善意第三人形象，實則真正身分為詐騙集團水房人員，形式上雖依約將泰達幣移轉至被害人指定電子錢包，惟被害人亦持續遭話術欺騙而交付電子錢包，即該電子錢包實質上仍為詐騙集團所掌控；扮演幣商犯嫌則藉由轉介被害人賺取高於市場行情之買賣差價，兼以個人幣商身分作為掩護，製造金流斷點，隱匿犯罪所得去向。","二、實務上，雖不斷查獲涉及犯罪之虛擬資產現金交易車手，但遭逮捕者大多辯稱本身只是個人幣商，且有虛擬資產買賣交易紀錄為證，對其他概不知情；倘警方無法查明該個人幣商與犯罪集團勾串之證據，形式上以觀，其與被害人間互動似無異於一般虛擬資產買賣行為，甚者主張本身也是被利用犯罪之受害角色，使整體交易行為更顯合情合理；另外，若個人幣商將虛擬資產轉入詐騙集團掌控的電子錢包，俟其獲不起訴處分，亦可主張已交付虛擬資產之事實，據此請求被害人給付買賣價金，無異於利用司法程序取回未成功得手之詐款。目前偵審上亦不乏據此抗辯而獲判無罪之情形，實乃因現行個人幣商未予明確登記納管所致。","參、因應作為","一、我國為防範虛擬資產交易成為洗錢工具，於2018年底修正洗錢防制法第5條將虛擬資產納入執行洗防義務主體，於2021年6月30日訂定「虛擬通貨平臺及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法」，惟該辦法規範對象僅限於國內登記所成立公司，且針對未完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明而以仍從事營業行為者，僅以行政處分裁處罰鍰。","二、為遏阻前述犯罪現況，本次洗錢防制法修正草案增訂第6條條文，該規定略以：提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務之事業或人員未向中央目的事業主管機關（金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部）完成洗錢防制登記、服務能量登錄者，不得提供是類服務；針對未完成洗錢防制登記、服務能量登錄，或該登記、登錄經撤銷或廢止而仍提供服務者，處二年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新臺幣五百萬元以下罰金。其中增訂「人員」文字，即包括自然人在內，效力當及於所謂個人幣商。","肆、對於洗錢防制法修正草案增訂第6條條文意見","該增訂第6條條文，係以洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記制度介入協助規範從業行為，由經營源頭輔以刑事罰進行約束，具嚇阻效果；未來針對意圖從事不法而未完成洗防登記仍經營個人幣商之行為，將不再無法可罰，俟該修正條文通過，警察機關對於涉案之個人幣商即有執法依據。本署對本次洗錢防制法修正草案表示支持。","伍、結語","協力強化打擊洗錢犯罪向為本署重點工作，將透過與相關公私部門共同合作，達成溯源查緝幕後犯罪集團之目標，藉此除落實犯罪零容忍政策外，並有效阻絕不法資金流竄，確保個人財產安全與國家金融秩序運作。","以上報告，懇請委員惠予指教，並敬祝身體健康，萬事如意。謝謝！"],["內政部移民署書面資料：","審查行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」報告","主席、各位委員、先進，大家好：","今天大院司法及法制委員會審查「洗錢防制法修正草案」等案，本部移民署（下稱移民署）應邀列席深感榮幸，以下茲就本次會議與移民署業務有關部分提出報告，敬請委員及各位先進指教：","一、持續把關入出國管理，嚴懲販運行為及人蛇集團","為防制人口販運行為及保護被害人權益，112年6月14日修正公布之人口販運防制法增訂第30條強迫勞動及第33條販運行為之罪則，以及提高第31條使人從事勞動與報酬不相當之工作等行為之罰則，以源頭嚇阻跨境犯罪及完善被害人保護服務，業於113年1月1日施行。","為重罰人蛇集團及防杜非法入出境情事，112年6月28日修正公布之入出國及移民法第72條之1增訂「使」外國人非法入國及未遂犯之罪則，並提高第74條外國人未經許可入國之罰則，以嚇阻集團犯罪及維護我國邊境安全，業於113年3月1日施行。","二、有關修正洗錢防制法一節，涉及非法入出境及人口販運罪責納入「特定犯罪」","鑑於行政院洗錢防制辦公室於108年12月召開「亞太防制洗錢組織第三輪相互評鑑缺失改善會議」，認應將移民走私類型犯罪列為洗錢防制之前置或上游犯罪，以防制跨國犯罪行為。","爰洗錢防制法修正將入出國及移民法第73條、第74條規定，以及人口販運防制法第30條、第31條及第33條規定，納入洗錢防制法修正條文第3條「特定犯罪」之罪，對移民署統籌入出國管理及防制人口販運行為之執行尚無窒礙，尊重大院後續法制作業之審議程序。","以上報告，懇請委員惠予指教，並持續支持移民署各項施政工作。謝謝！"],["主席：機關報告已進行完畢。現在開始詢答，本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘，必要時，得延長2分鐘；非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘，並不再延長；上午10時30分截止發言登記。","請登記第一位沈委員發惠發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 4案；二、處理113年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案；三、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議\n「洗錢防制法修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.45221875,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.65971875,"end":42.049718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.44471875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.882843750000006,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.93721875000001,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.96034375,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.74471875,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.60034375000001,"end":87.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.59534375000001,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.24346875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.88909375,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.83284375000002,"end":161.65971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.832,"end":10.144,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位同仁以及在場的所有官員我想洗錢防制法的立法"},{"start":12.932,"end":37.824,"text":"大家都非常關心所謂的詐騙案猖獗的現代所以台灣民眾黨提出的洗錢防制法有以下三個特色第一個我們應該擴大滿足洗錢防制制度的業別強化虛擬資產業還有第三方支付業的登記制度因為他們現在幾乎叫做無人可管要授權主管機關建立洗錢防制的資訊交換平臺並且加強洗錢防制的資訊交換"},{"start":42.346,"end":43.066,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":59.952,"end":60.853,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":82.671,"end":97.027,"text":"此外的業者同樣需要辦理登記才可以在國內進行廣告或營業同樣的第一次被主管機關查獲主管機關必須公告名單並要求辦理登記第二次開始我們就要讓主管機關可以限制他的瀏覽"},{"start":98.288,"end":121.262,"text":"同時為了加強洗錢防制資訊的交換讓前端的金融業者跟後端的減緊掉能夠有最快速的資訊交換平台我們希望在法條裡面要求法務部建立一個統一的平台讓洗錢防法所有對於客戶有確認身份管制賬戶要求的機構可以都有一個統一的平台以及跟其他機構跟減緊交換資訊的機會"},{"start":124.924,"end":141.437,"text":"五）希望這個平台是由政府來建置,讓資訊不再繼續是用傳真或者是業者跟機關的窗口之間的E-mail或Line來傳達,而是有一個國家級的平台可以用來交換資訊,不管是凍結或者管制帳戶都能更快更準確。"},{"start":142.458,"end":157.934,"text":"所以希望透過此次洗錢防制法修正強化國內金融機構對於洗錢防制制度的建立還要對於虛擬資產第三方支付有登記監管制度確保我國在打擊詐欺政策上面能夠更有效的執行以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4536642a646950c351bf1f99622ceb699a780469f81d0044283aaab6b1aed7c96905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:04:49 - 09:07:08","影片長度":"00:02:19","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-23","duration":139,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-13"},"end_time":"2024-05-23T09:07:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-23T09:04:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":84,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時4分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人，為因應現代社會潮流與民眾便利性，修正增設多層次傳銷管理法第十三條之電子參加契約，現行「多層次傳銷管理法」已就契約應記載事項、退出退貨等事項有明確規範，給予傳銷商權利完整的保護，該等法定要求既然同樣適用於電子參加契約，則開放線上加入並不會衝擊任何傳銷商權益。現代電子文書之使用與儲存已十分普及，相較紙本契約之保存不易，以電子形式締約反使傳銷商及業者更加能夠達到目前環境保護無紙化之環保趨勢，基於上述各項修法主張，爰擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」。其中就是在第十三條的第二項，將現行「前項之書面，不得以電子文件為之」的「不」刪掉，讓電子文件可以直接加入，敬請各位同仁以及行政部門支持。我們為了也因應排碳以及環境保護無紙化，而且讓保存更加的完整，敬請大家來支持。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來請公平會主委李鎂就報告事項及委員討論的版本進行報告，請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位媒體朋友，大家早安。以下我謹代表公平會針對今天的兩個議題，「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」，另外還有經濟委員會邱志偉委員等16位委員，以及楊瓊瓔委員等24位委員所提出的「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」向各位提出報告，敬請各位指教。","首先在外送平台併購案這裡，因為外送平台的出現結合了「平台經濟」跟「零工經濟」兩種新興商業型態，改變我們社會大眾的消費習慣以及餐飲商業經營模式，創造了新的工作機會。公平會是競爭主管機關，我們向來對於外送平台在市場的競爭狀況非常的重視，之前我們也曾經有針對外送平台要求餐廳要接受店內價條款，以及顧客自取等等限制行為作成處分，因此對於外送平台的營運模式，我們會關切有無對市場的競爭產生影響。","公平交易法除了對競爭行為有規範以外，也包括對於市場結構的管制，依照公平交易法相關規定，事業之間如果有合併跟購併的情形，符合法定的結合定義，而且參與結合事業的市占率或者是銷售率達到結合的申報門檻，應該要事前向公平會提出申報。我們已經在5月14號收到Uber Eats母公司提出要跟foodpanda結合的申報案件，現在正在審查這些文件申報資料是不是齊備，等到所有申報資料完整之後，我們就會開始受理這個結合案進行審查。","我們對於結合申報的案件，根據公平交易法的規定，參與結合事業在我們受理申報後30個工作天之內不得進行結合，這個30天的審查期間，必要時我們可以再延長到60個工作天。","Uber Eats跟foodpanda的結合，顯著地將會改變市場的結構，因此我們審查的重點會從市場集中度、結合後併購方訂價能力、合併案協同效果、市場效益等四大面向來審查。簡單說，我們會去觀察結合以後的市場集中度，因為競爭對手減少了，併購方是不是因此有提高價格的能力；第二個就是市場上因為競爭對手變少了，是不是有可能產生聯合行為發生的風險；再來是交易相對人，譬如說餐廳、外送員或者是消費者，議價能力是不是受到影響？以及潛在的競爭者是不是容易參進這個市場？這都是我們考慮的面向。我們在審查的過程當中會徵詢利害關係人的意見，包括餐廳、外送員、消費者以及相關主管機關，包括消保會、勞動部等等，我們也會召開公聽會或座談會徵詢各界的意見，最後我們再綜合評估整個結合案的整體經濟利益是否大於限制競爭的不利益，再做出准駁的決定。","外送經濟已經深入我們全民的生活，這個結合案影響深遠，我們會審慎地做出決定，確保維護自由與公平的競爭，這是關於外送平台結合案所做的報告。","接下來報告邱志偉委員等16位委員，以及楊瓊瓔委員等24位委員所提的「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正案」，說明如下：","首先是邱委員等16人，以及楊委員等24人所提的修正案都是針對多層次傳銷管理法第十三條的修正意見，而且修正的內容是相同的，主要都是要增加多層次傳銷事業跟傳銷商締結參加契約的時候可以用電子文件為之。我先說明一下現行條文的規定，現行條文的規定是，傳銷事業跟傳銷商在簽訂參加契約的時候要用書面，不可以用電子方式為之。當時為什麼要這麼規定？因為傳銷商跟傳銷事業之間的權利義務關係用書面締結，以白紙黑字寫清楚，可以讓雙方對權利義務關係很清楚，而且能夠讓傳銷商確實地瞭解，因此現行規定是說要有書面契約，而且要交付契約的正本，不可以用電子方式進行。但是現在科技發展，民眾已經能夠接受電子契約，而且相當普及，加上電子化符合無紙化的趨勢，所以委員等所提的草案版本，規定傳銷事業跟傳銷商的參加契約可以用電子文件為之，本會敬表支持。以上簡單報告，敬請指教！"],["主席：謝謝公平會主委的報告。行政院消費者保護處以及數發部的書面報告請委員自行參酌，並刊登公報。"],["行政院消費者保護處書面資料：","「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」專題報告","主席、各位委員大家好：","今天承貴委員會邀請就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」提出專題報告，謹報告如下。敬請各位委員不吝指教。","壹、外送平台業者合併對消費者權益之影響","據113年5月14日媒體報載，業者Uber宣布將以9.5億美元併購Delivery Hero旗下foodpanda台灣外送事業，預計在明年上半年完成交易，引起各界關注。另依財團法人資訊工業策進會於113年2月所發布之「2023年外送服務使用調查報告」顯示，112年有71%網友使用外送平台，其中有73.6%使用foodpanda，57.6%使用Uber Eats；未來如併購成功，預期業者市占率極高，且一般餐飲業者雖亦可提供外送服務，惟外送平台可提供之餐飲及商品，因其具有多樣性及便利性之特質，恐非一般餐飲業者可予替代，在此情形下，合併後，業者市場掌控能力極高，主導性強，對消費者權益可能產生下列影響：","一、消費者選擇權被削弱：","合併後，業者對於市場價格定價具有主導權，在定價權被業者掌控之情形下，消費者選擇權下降，可能被迫接受不利條件，例如外送服務費調漲、服務品質下降等問題，恐衍生更多消費爭議。","二、會員既有權益是否存續：","Uber Eats的Uber One會員優惠權益與foodpanda的pandapro會員優惠權益有所不同，例如：","(一)訂閱制費用：pandapro會員年度訂閱費提供75折優惠，1,079元/年；Uber One會員提供83折優惠1,200元/年。","(二)免外送服務費門檻：pandapro會員，美食及生鮮雜貨之外送訂單需滿179元，享有無限次免外送服務費；Uber One會員，美食外送訂單需達199元或生鮮雜貨訂單需滿299元，免外送服務費。","(三)訂閱制退訂權益：pandapro會員享有訂閱後7日內如無使用優惠，可申請退訂之機制，Uber One則無。","未來如果合併，原先兩家會員所享之權益可否存續，對消費者權益影響重大。","三、合作店家成本提高恐將轉嫁消費者：","合併後，業者對於合作店家所收取之上架費、交易抽成、平台使用費等費用如上漲，如此一來，店家支出成本提高，亦可能會將商品價格轉嫁至消費者。","貳、本處採取保護消費者之措施：","鑒於前述對消費者權益可能產生之影響，本處採取以下措施：","一、參與公平交易委員會（下稱公平會）就結合案召開之相關會議，並提出意見：","依「公平交易法」第11條第10項規定，主管機關就事業結合之申報，得徵詢外界意見。另依「公平交易委員會對於結合申報案件之處理原則」第13點，具有顯著限制競爭疑慮之結合申報案件，申報事業得提出經濟效率、消費者利益、其他有關整體經濟利益之具體成效等整體經濟利益之考量因素供公平會審酌。基此，本處將於公平會召開結合案相關會議時，就保障消費者權益之立場提出相關意見。","二、持續關注外送平台衍生之消費爭議並協助處理：","觀察113年1月至4月外送平台業者Uber Eats及foodpanda主要消費爭議態樣，以餐點或商品問題為主（32%），另有平台退費（24%）、平台系統（16%）、會員權益（10%）等問題。本處除於結合案審查期間密切注意是否有因本案而生之消費爭議外，亦會持續關注外送平台相關消費爭議，並請地方政府消費者保護官依消費者保護法第43條積極協處，保障消費者權益。","參、結語","本案因涉及結合申報案件之審查，本處尊重公平會委員會議之決定，惟將本於消費者權益保障之立場提出相關意見，及持續關注消費爭議情形，並協助處理，以維護消費者權益。以上報告，敬祈各位委員指教，謝謝！"],["數位發展部書面資料：","審查「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」書面報告","主席、各位委員及與會嘉賓：","今天應邀列席委員會，數位發展部（以下簡稱數發部）針對審查「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」，謹就涉及本部業務部分向各位報告：","近期本部推動電子簽章法修法，該草案業於本（113）年2月29日經行政院會通過，並函請立法院審議，業於4月15日經交通委員會審議完竣，續於4月30日經立法院三讀通過，並於5月15日由總統公告施行，期透過完備電子簽章相關規範打造數位信任的重要基礎。","電子簽章法修法明定電子文件、電子簽章與實體文件、實體簽章具同等功能，不得僅因其電子形式而否認其法律效力；又明定數位簽章為電子簽章的一種類型，使電子簽章與數位簽章關係明確化；再明定數位簽章需具備政府許可憑證機構所簽發的憑證，在法律上具有「推定」為本人親自簽名或蓋章的效力。","針對本次審查「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」，其中委員邱志偉、伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人及委員楊瓊瓔等24人所提案版本均有關書面契約涉及電子文件之議題，本部說明如下：","一、多層次傳銷管理法第13條條文第1項規定多層次傳銷事業於傳銷商參加其傳銷計畫或組織時，應與傳銷商締結「書面」參加契約，並交付契約正本。並於第13條條文第2項規定前項之「書面」，得以電子文件為之。","二、多層次傳銷管理法已明文與傳銷商締結書面參加契約，得以電子文件為之，故可適用我國「電子簽章法」之電子文件與電子簽章相關規範。適用上需從電子文件及電子簽章二部分討論：","(一)電子文件：法定「書面」之概念，從電子簽章法施行以來，已不限於紙本，且多層次傳銷管理法已明文與傳銷商締結書面參加契約，得以電子文件為之，故依電子簽章法，在符合下列要件下，得以電子文件為之：","1.給予相對人反對之機會：依修正電子簽章法第5條第4項規定，應於採用電子形式之前，以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會，並告知相對人未反對者，推定同意採用電子形式。","2.內容可完整呈現，並可於日後取出供查驗：依修正電子簽章法第5條第2項，契約內容須能完整呈現在電子文件上，並可供日後調閱查驗用。","3.無其他法律排除電子文件之適用：依修正電子簽章法第11條規定，得依「法律」排除電子文件之適用，多層次傳銷管理法已明文與傳銷商締結書面參加契約，得以電子文件為之，並未排除電子文件之適用。","(二)電子簽章：與傳銷商締結書面參加契約上的簽名或蓋章是否得以電子簽章為之？","依電子簽章法，簽名或蓋章在符合下列要件下，得以電子簽章為之：","1.符合電子簽章要件：所謂電子簽章依修正電子簽章法第2條第2款是指「依附於電子文件並與其相關連，用以辨識及確認電子文件簽署人身分、資格及電子文件真偽者」。與傳銷商締結書面參加契約上的簽章，若需採用電子簽章，技術上需能符合電子簽章定義中的依附性、關連性、辨識簽署人身分及文件真偽等要件。","2.給予相對人反對之機會：依修正電子簽章法第5條第4項規定，需於採用電子簽章之前，給相對人表示反對之機會，並告知相對人若未反對，則推定同意採用電子簽章。","3.無其他法律排除電子簽章之適用：依修正電子簽章法第11條規定，得依「法律」排除電子簽章之適用，多層次傳銷管理法並未明文排除使用電子簽章，故得以電子簽章為之。","以上報告，敬請　指教。","謝謝各位委員聆聽與指教，報告完畢。"],["主席：現場委員的人數已足，請問各位委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定。","接下來我們要開始進行詢答，委員質詢前援例做以下幾點宣告：每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘，必要時得延長2分鐘，非本會委員4分鐘；上午10點鐘截止發言登記。","我是不是請一下楊瓊瓔委員？謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔代）：請登記第一位邱議瑩召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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