{"total":{"value":91,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-05-27"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"15954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15954","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4197e6bbfb965dc7ad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be451be27c5b53ce92f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-27","start_time":"2024-05-27T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:27:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10605,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 11:27:00","影片長度":"02:56:45","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1924.9453437500001,"end":1926.1265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1926.3122187500003,"end":1926.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1927.6790937500002,"end":1932.5728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1932.9609687500001,"end":1935.1378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1936.4878437500001,"end":1937.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1937.9390937500002,"end":1938.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1939.3059687500001,"end":1941.0103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1941.8709687500002,"end":1947.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1947.6253437500002,"end":1955.5059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1952.63721875,"end":1953.2447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1955.6915937500003,"end":1960.7372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1960.9565937500001,"end":1963.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1964.0953437500002,"end":1965.9009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1966.3059687500001,"end":1969.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1969.7315937500002,"end":1970.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1970.8284687500002,"end":1981.5440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1982.03346875,"end":1986.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1986.3365937500002,"end":1993.6265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1993.8797187500002,"end":1998.8072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1999.0097187500003,"end":2001.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2002.1990937500002,"end":2004.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2005.1015937500001,"end":2006.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2006.9409687500001,"end":2009.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2009.3540937500002,"end":2016.2559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2019.71534375,"end":2022.6009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2022.95534375,"end":2025.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2026.9378437500002,"end":2030.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2031.3253437500002,"end":2031.9328437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2032.65846875,"end":2033.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2035.0884687500002,"end":2037.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2038.0922187500003,"end":2041.2984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2041.78784375,"end":2044.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2045.9053437500002,"end":2048.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2049.43221875,"end":2052.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2053.04346875,"end":2054.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2055.0009687500005,"end":2055.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2058.29159375,"end":2060.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2061.88596875,"end":2063.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2065.15971875,"end":2066.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2067.48846875,"end":2070.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2072.44971875,"end":2075.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2075.4872187500005,"end":2076.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2077.68096875,"end":2078.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2078.57534375,"end":2080.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2080.5497187500005,"end":2082.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2083.8572187500004,"end":2086.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2087.56971875,"end":2088.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2090.1853437500004,"end":2090.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2094.01596875,"end":2094.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2094.7584687500002,"end":2096.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2098.0997187500006,"end":2098.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2098.7409687500003,"end":2100.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2100.83346875,"end":2101.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2101.55909375,"end":2103.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2104.81596875,"end":2105.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2107.3640937500004,"end":2112.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2112.59534375,"end":2116.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2116.7128437500005,"end":2118.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2118.61971875,"end":2121.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2121.0497187500005,"end":2128.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2129.0147187500006,"end":2131.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2132.2715937500006,"end":2139.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2140.65846875,"end":2144.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2146.69971875,"end":2152.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2152.82534375,"end":2156.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2162.8659687500003,"end":2196.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2196.6834687500004,"end":2209.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2210.58846875,"end":2255.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2256.7078437500004,"end":2323.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2323.9209687500006,"end":2343.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2343.7322187500004,"end":2344.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2344.98096875,"end":2345.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2346.12846875,"end":2369.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2369.97284375,"end":2373.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2373.9384687500005,"end":2386.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2386.93221875,"end":2399.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2399.9765937500006,"end":2406.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2408.4647187500004,"end":2412.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2419.0622187500003,"end":2440.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2440.5272187500004,"end":2442.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2443.09221875,"end":2546.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2547.0253437500005,"end":2562.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2562.60096875,"end":2588.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2589.41534375,"end":2636.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2637.99846875,"end":2641.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2642.16659375,"end":2649.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2650.2159687500007,"end":2652.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2653.3209687500002,"end":2660.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2665.5722187500005,"end":2668.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2668.3397187500004,"end":2679.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2679.9665937500004,"end":2687.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2687.6784687500003,"end":2693.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2694.36096875,"end":2743.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2745.3065937500005,"end":2751.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2752.5459687500006,"end":2753.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2753.9297187500006,"end":2758.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2759.2790937500004,"end":2760.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2761.0340937500005,"end":2775.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2776.1034687500005,"end":2791.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2792.16846875,"end":2818.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2818.4765937500006,"end":2823.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2823.6403437500003,"end":2830.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2830.74471875,"end":2833.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2833.2422187500006,"end":2843.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2843.7890937500006,"end":2886.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2890.0772187500006,"end":2891.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2893.28346875,"end":2900.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2903.6278437500005,"end":2912.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2912.58846875,"end":2913.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2914.2253437500003,"end":2919.3722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2920.04721875,"end":2921.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2937.7997187500005,"end":2940.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2940.97221875,"end":2943.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2945.66346875,"end":2945.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2945.6803437500002,"end":2946.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2946.03471875,"end":2946.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2946.9628437500005,"end":2947.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2947.0303437500006,"end":2947.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2947.1315937500003,"end":2947.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2947.1484687500006,"end":2947.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2950.11846875,"end":2956.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2957.3240937500004,"end":2971.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2971.81971875,"end":2972.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2973.99659375,"end":2974.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2974.48596875,"end":2979.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2980.2740937500002,"end":2984.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2984.77971875,"end":2985.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2986.1972187500005,"end":2987.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2987.2097187500003,"end":2991.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2991.83346875,"end":2993.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2993.38596875,"end":3000.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3001.16534375,"end":3004.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3001.2497187500003,"end":3001.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3004.65846875,"end":3012.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3013.51784375,"end":3016.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3016.77471875,"end":3017.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3019.00221875,"end":3021.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3022.1240937500006,"end":3025.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3025.4822187500004,"end":3027.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3028.0303437500006,"end":3036.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3036.50159375,"end":3040.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3041.85096875,"end":3049.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3049.98471875,"end":3051.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3051.30096875,"end":3057.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3057.5615937500006,"end":3057.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3058.37159375,"end":3063.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3064.4297187500006,"end":3088.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3088.7634687500004,"end":3094.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3094.8047187500006,"end":3101.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3096.6778437500006,"end":3096.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3103.1072187500004,"end":3103.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3104.11971875,"end":3132.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3134.17409375,"end":3134.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3135.27096875,"end":3147.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3148.0622187500003,"end":3149.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3149.42909375,"end":3150.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3150.2897187500002,"end":3156.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3157.5290937500004,"end":3164.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3164.7009687500004,"end":3169.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3170.3709687500004,"end":3171.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3172.98659375,"end":3176.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3176.7497187500003,"end":3178.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3178.6228437500004,"end":3179.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3180.29346875,"end":3180.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3181.0359687500004,"end":3185.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3182.9259687500007,"end":3183.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3185.65971875,"end":3205.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3192.27471875,"end":3192.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3203.1084687500006,"end":3209.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3208.42409375,"end":3209.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3209.14971875,"end":3210.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3209.70659375,"end":3214.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3214.4147187500002,"end":3218.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3219.0047187500004,"end":3220.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3221.2322187500004,"end":3226.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3223.13909375,"end":3223.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3225.4509687500004,"end":3229.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3229.9734687500004,"end":3236.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3236.6222187500007,"end":3241.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3238.09034375,"end":3238.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3238.14096875,"end":3238.1915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3239.2547187500004,"end":3239.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3239.28846875,"end":3239.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3242.2078437500004,"end":3263.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3246.7978437500005,"end":3247.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3247.2197187500005,"end":3247.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3254.4928437500002,"end":3254.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3256.04534375,"end":3256.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3261.29346875,"end":3269.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3269.17409375,"end":3270.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3270.1022187500002,"end":3272.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3273.2072187500007,"end":3277.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3278.05034375,"end":3291.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3291.4997187500003,"end":3294.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3294.9928437500002,"end":3299.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3299.9034687500007,"end":3301.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3301.8947187500007,"end":3302.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3304.1559687500003,"end":3308.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3309.4715937500005,"end":3319.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3319.14096875,"end":3319.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3319.63034375,"end":3319.6640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3319.6640937500006,"end":3319.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3319.91721875,"end":3319.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3319.9678437500006,"end":3327.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3327.40971875,"end":3334.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3334.02471875,"end":3334.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3334.81784375,"end":3334.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3334.8347187500003,"end":3336.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3336.3028437500006,"end":3342.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3342.83346875,"end":3350.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3347.7440937500005,"end":3348.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3350.7647187500006,"end":3352.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3353.75159375,"end":3354.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3355.7597187500005,"end":3359.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3360.07971875,"end":3379.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3380.1103437500005,"end":3382.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3382.3884687500004,"end":3386.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3387.4509687500004,"end":3389.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3389.96534375,"end":3390.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3390.03284375,"end":3395.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3391.11284375,"end":3391.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3392.8172187500004,"end":3393.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3394.9434687500006,"end":3405.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3405.8278437500003,"end":3409.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3410.09721875,"end":3423.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3421.9940937500005,"end":3427.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3423.90096875,"end":3424.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3427.86659375,"end":3433.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3434.02596875,"end":3435.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3435.4940937500005,"end":3438.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3438.2784687500007,"end":3441.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3442.3115937500006,"end":3463.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3456.6384687500004,"end":3456.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3456.79034375,"end":3456.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3463.67534375,"end":3469.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3469.51409375,"end":3472.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3473.1759687500007,"end":3485.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3486.27096875,"end":3491.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3491.50221875,"end":3492.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3493.37534375,"end":3526.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3527.0240937500002,"end":3527.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3529.0828437500004,"end":3530.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3532.3565937500007,"end":3534.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3552.1847187500007,"end":3555.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3555.34034375,"end":3555.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3555.3740937500006,"end":3555.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3555.4753437500003,"end":3556.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3557.6522187500004,"end":3558.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3559.20471875,"end":3559.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3560.2003437500007,"end":3581.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3566.4440937500003,"end":3566.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3581.6315937500003,"end":3582.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3582.1378437500007,"end":3582.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3582.4415937500007,"end":3608.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3608.56409375,"end":3622.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3622.8572187500004,"end":3627.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3628.5947187500005,"end":3628.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3628.9659687500007,"end":3629.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3630.0965937500005,"end":3670.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3669.65159375,"end":3669.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3670.02284375,"end":3694.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3695.2509687500005,"end":3725.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3725.84534375,"end":3725.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3726.55409375,"end":3726.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3726.5709687500002,"end":3726.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3726.97596875,"end":3739.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3740.17221875,"end":3769.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3769.8553437500004,"end":3774.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3775.00221875,"end":3775.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3776.14971875,"end":3818.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3818.82659375,"end":3830.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3830.5547187500006,"end":3831.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3831.5840937500006,"end":3831.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3832.1747187500005,"end":3834.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3834.97596875,"end":3835.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3835.34721875,"end":3840.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3841.0340937500005,"end":3910.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3910.0359687500004,"end":3919.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3919.4353437500004,"end":3945.3722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3946.70534375,"end":3953.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3954.1472187500003,"end":3954.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3954.85596875,"end":3972.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3972.87846875,"end":3983.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3984.4715937500005,"end":3990.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3990.8503437500003,"end":3990.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3990.88409375,"end":3993.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3994.3603437500005,"end":3997.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3997.76909375,"end":4025.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4026.92909375,"end":4027.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4027.23284375,"end":4027.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4028.2453437500008,"end":4028.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4028.2790937500004,"end":4031.1984687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4031.6709687500006,"end":4032.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4033.51034375,"end":4036.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4038.20159375,"end":4038.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4038.6403437500003,"end":4041.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4038.7078437500004,"end":4040.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4043.4328437500008,"end":4062.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4062.7547187500004,"end":4066.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4066.4334687500004,"end":4073.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4073.8078437500008,"end":4076.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4077.0984687500004,"end":4077.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4078.1447187500007,"end":4079.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4080.15284375,"end":4090.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4090.6153437500006,"end":4122.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4122.76221875,"end":4128.128468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4128.600968750001,"end":4130.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4131.081593749999,"end":4135.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4136.144093749999,"end":4139.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4152.833468750001,"end":4162.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4163.21159375,"end":4164.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4164.76409375,"end":4166.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4167.362843749999,"end":4170.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4170.72096875,"end":4171.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4172.27346875,"end":4173.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4175.243468750001,"end":4177.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4178.145968750001,"end":4183.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4184.54159375,"end":4185.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4186.78596875,"end":4206.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4207.019093749999,"end":4210.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4210.93409375,"end":4222.206593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4222.679093750001,"end":4226.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4226.93159375,"end":4236.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4237.32659375,"end":4238.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4238.91284375,"end":4240.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4241.54534375,"end":4245.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4246.42221875,"end":4248.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4248.734093749999,"end":4259.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4259.804093750001,"end":4273.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4274.40096875,"end":4275.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4276.206593749999,"end":4279.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4280.08784375,"end":4285.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4286.280968749999,"end":4289.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4289.284718749999,"end":4292.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4292.87909375,"end":4293.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4294.583468750001,"end":4297.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4297.80659375,"end":4300.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4301.82284375,"end":4305.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4306.817843750001,"end":4307.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4308.96096875,"end":4323.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4324.73909375,"end":4328.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4329.227843750001,"end":4332.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4333.69971875,"end":4334.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4334.83034375,"end":4336.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4336.7372187500005,"end":4338.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4338.94784375,"end":4340.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4340.280968749999,"end":4348.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4348.17846875,"end":4355.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4356.05909375,"end":4385.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4385.82659375,"end":4406.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4407.173468749999,"end":4411.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4411.89846875,"end":4436.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4437.278468750001,"end":4438.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4439.91096875,"end":4465.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4465.08846875,"end":4465.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4466.185343749999,"end":4466.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4466.21909375,"end":4495.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4493.53971875,"end":4493.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4493.573468750001,"end":4493.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4496.50971875,"end":4496.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4497.70784375,"end":4498.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4498.872218750001,"end":4500.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4501.60596875,"end":4504.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4505.200343750001,"end":4510.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4510.98846875,"end":4513.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4513.6884687500005,"end":4514.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4515.24096875,"end":4516.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4516.84409375,"end":4517.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4518.21096875,"end":4519.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4519.47659375,"end":4520.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4520.96159375,"end":4522.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4522.159718749999,"end":4523.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4524.77534375,"end":4526.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4526.985968749999,"end":4529.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4529.905343750001,"end":4530.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4531.50846875,"end":4534.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4534.967843750001,"end":4537.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4538.25846875,"end":4544.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4544.654093749999,"end":4552.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4552.821593750001,"end":4553.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4554.509093750001,"end":4555.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4555.89284375,"end":4556.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4557.95159375,"end":4583.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4584.090968750001,"end":4584.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4585.255343750001,"end":4611.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4611.61409375,"end":4616.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4616.64284375,"end":4618.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4618.09409375,"end":4618.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4618.98846875,"end":4633.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4635.509093750001,"end":4638.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4638.02346875,"end":4638.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4638.124718749999,"end":4638.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4638.20909375,"end":4638.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4638.310343749999,"end":4639.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4638.360968749999,"end":4638.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4639.37346875,"end":4661.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4639.390343749999,"end":4639.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4639.94721875,"end":4640.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4641.19596875,"end":4641.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4653.71721875,"end":4653.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4662.0028437500005,"end":4671.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4672.1278437500005,"end":4673.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4674.827843749999,"end":4675.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4675.671593749999,"end":4679.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4680.362843749999,"end":4687.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4688.327843749999,"end":4694.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4694.6728437500005,"end":4696.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4697.06909375,"end":4699.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4700.714093750001,"end":4705.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4705.5740937499995,"end":4710.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4711.075343750001,"end":4713.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4715.31096875,"end":4715.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4716.67784375,"end":4724.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4724.74409375,"end":4753.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4753.41471875,"end":4787.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4768.534718750001,"end":4768.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4787.40096875,"end":4793.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4794.690968750001,"end":4795.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4795.7372187500005,"end":4807.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4807.85346875,"end":4873.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4873.69971875,"end":4875.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4875.269093750001,"end":4875.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4875.43784375,"end":4876.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4876.93971875,"end":4882.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4883.26784375,"end":4893.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4893.62909375,"end":4894.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4894.067843750001,"end":4903.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4903.9228437500005,"end":4905.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4905.62721875,"end":4913.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4914.01409375,"end":4938.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4938.95534375,"end":4939.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4940.22096875,"end":4950.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4950.734093749999,"end":4955.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4955.67846875,"end":4958.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4958.91846875,"end":4960.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4959.25596875,"end":4960.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4960.6903437500005,"end":4964.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4965.66846875,"end":4966.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4966.967843750001,"end":4967.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4967.9803437499995,"end":4968.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4969.60034375,"end":4970.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5081.73471875,"end":5087.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5097.225968750001,"end":5103.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5105.612843750001,"end":5106.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5107.41846875,"end":5133.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5134.2665937500005,"end":5144.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5144.239718750001,"end":5144.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5144.96534375,"end":5145.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5145.62346875,"end":5146.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5146.41659375,"end":5181.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5170.919093750001,"end":5170.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5170.93596875,"end":5171.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5171.44221875,"end":5171.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5183.760968750001,"end":5188.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5190.173468749999,"end":5191.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5191.624718749999,"end":5198.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5194.29096875,"end":5194.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5194.307843750001,"end":5195.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5198.91471875,"end":5221.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5222.50596875,"end":5225.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5226.01596875,"end":5226.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5226.0497187500005,"end":5228.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5227.55159375,"end":5231.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5232.39471875,"end":5233.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5233.13721875,"end":5233.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5233.66034375,"end":5236.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5233.84596875,"end":5234.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5234.706593750001,"end":5234.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5236.51221875,"end":5239.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5237.609093749999,"end":5238.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5239.920968750001,"end":5251.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5252.577218750001,"end":5254.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5254.3153437500005,"end":5255.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5255.46284375,"end":5269.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5255.479718750001,"end":5256.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5270.73471875,"end":5272.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5272.79346875,"end":5273.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5275.628468750001,"end":5277.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5278.868468750001,"end":5282.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5281.7372187500005,"end":5282.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5283.880343750001,"end":5303.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5304.16409375,"end":5305.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5306.577218750001,"end":5307.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5309.715968750001,"end":5317.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5318.69346875,"end":5327.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5328.10971875,"end":5334.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5335.214093750001,"end":5336.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5336.22659375,"end":5351.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5352.25784375,"end":5377.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5377.249718749999,"end":5380.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5381.046593749999,"end":5383.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5383.93221875,"end":5384.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5384.03346875,"end":5384.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5384.185343749999,"end":5384.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5384.202218750001,"end":5387.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5385.653468750001,"end":5387.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5387.59409375,"end":5392.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5387.661593750001,"end":5390.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5392.200968749999,"end":5393.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5393.567843750001,"end":5396.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5397.56721875,"end":5400.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5400.655343750001,"end":5406.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5406.966593749999,"end":5410.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5410.98284375,"end":5436.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5436.413468750001,"end":5443.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5445.8465937500005,"end":5446.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5446.639718750001,"end":5446.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5448.20909375,"end":5448.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5448.24284375,"end":5455.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5453.32221875,"end":5458.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5458.300343750001,"end":5461.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5461.89471875,"end":5462.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5463.76784375,"end":5464.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5466.180968750001,"end":5466.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5472.20534375,"end":5476.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5477.520968750001,"end":5480.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5480.03534375,"end":5481.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5481.8240937499995,"end":5485.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5485.57034375,"end":5491.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5492.08409375,"end":5508.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5511.608468750001,"end":5512.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5512.41846875,"end":5512.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5512.6209687499995,"end":5512.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5512.823468750001,"end":5512.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5512.97534375,"end":5515.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5516.4178437499995,"end":5523.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5523.15096875,"end":5523.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5523.30284375,"end":5524.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5524.028468750001,"end":5525.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5526.15471875,"end":5527.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5527.92659375,"end":5535.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5535.99284375,"end":5554.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5554.859093749999,"end":5555.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5555.07846875,"end":5578.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5579.091593749999,"end":5579.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5579.96909375,"end":5580.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5580.4247187500005,"end":5580.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5580.44159375,"end":5591.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5590.060343749999,"end":5590.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5591.03909375,"end":5615.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5616.53721875,"end":5629.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5617.110968749999,"end":5617.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5617.19534375,"end":5617.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5617.43159375,"end":5617.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5629.716593749999,"end":5635.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5635.673468749999,"end":5636.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5635.94346875,"end":5646.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5648.12721875,"end":5649.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5650.2197187500005,"end":5651.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5651.97471875,"end":5653.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5653.93221875,"end":5659.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5659.956593750001,"end":5661.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5662.487843750001,"end":5665.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5666.53784375,"end":5675.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5675.63346875,"end":5676.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5678.8397187499995,"end":5686.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5687.327843749999,"end":5688.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5688.76221875,"end":5690.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5690.382218750001,"end":5693.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5692.47471875,"end":5693.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5693.08221875,"end":5693.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5693.11596875,"end":5700.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5693.92596875,"end":5694.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5700.89534375,"end":5701.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5701.958468750001,"end":5715.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5715.62721875,"end":5719.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5719.255343750001,"end":5721.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5722.967843750001,"end":5724.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5724.790343750001,"end":5731.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5733.00846875,"end":5739.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5739.62346875,"end":5773.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5776.93409375,"end":5779.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5788.729718750001,"end":5790.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5791.345343749999,"end":5792.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5791.919093750001,"end":5792.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5795.513468749999,"end":5795.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5795.73284375,"end":5795.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5795.96909375,"end":5802.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5803.24221875,"end":5804.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5805.267218749999,"end":5810.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5810.31284375,"end":5819.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5819.425343750001,"end":5825.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5825.82096875,"end":5838.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5838.932843750001,"end":5858.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5859.14909375,"end":5863.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5863.587218750001,"end":5866.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5867.282843750001,"end":5869.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5869.89846875,"end":5892.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5892.831593750001,"end":5901.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5901.57284375,"end":5904.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5904.47534375,"end":5905.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5905.57221875,"end":5924.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5924.944718750001,"end":5931.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5932.437218749999,"end":5934.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5934.85034375,"end":5944.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5944.587218750001,"end":5946.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5946.409718750001,"end":5950.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5950.628468750001,"end":5954.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5954.847218750001,"end":5972.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5973.224093750001,"end":5999.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6000.07221875,"end":6002.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6003.2615937499995,"end":6003.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6004.69596875,"end":6022.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6023.83221875,"end":6025.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6025.772843750001,"end":6034.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6034.716593749999,"end":6037.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6037.97346875,"end":6043.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6040.4540937500005,"end":6040.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6044.234093749999,"end":6046.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6044.53784375,"end":6045.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6045.921593749999,"end":6055.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6055.37159375,"end":6071.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6071.993468750001,"end":6093.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6084.53159375,"end":6084.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6084.970343750001,"end":6085.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6092.142218750001,"end":6113.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6095.196593750001,"end":6095.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6113.35409375,"end":6119.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6119.901593750001,"end":6123.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6123.9178437499995,"end":6132.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6134.009093750001,"end":6135.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6136.55721875,"end":6141.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6142.27784375,"end":6142.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6144.083468750001,"end":6148.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6148.94346875,"end":6157.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6157.819718750001,"end":6160.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6161.12721875,"end":6163.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6163.6415937500005,"end":6180.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6180.7528437500005,"end":6183.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6184.347218750001,"end":6195.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6194.30346875,"end":6213.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6214.064093750001,"end":6237.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6238.33034375,"end":6257.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6244.50659375,"end":6244.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6245.991593750001,"end":6246.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6257.55096875,"end":6276.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6277.260968750001,"end":6282.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6283.09971875,"end":6284.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6285.24284375,"end":6293.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6293.663468750001,"end":6297.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6294.94596875,"end":6297.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6297.645968750001,"end":6297.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6297.696593750001,"end":6297.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6297.89909375,"end":6307.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6297.94971875,"end":6298.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6307.97346875,"end":6308.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6308.192843750001,"end":6310.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6309.67784375,"end":6309.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6310.74096875,"end":6315.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6315.76971875,"end":6317.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6318.33471875,"end":6328.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6329.6747187500005,"end":6333.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6331.80096875,"end":6332.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6333.10034375,"end":6353.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6353.8397187499995,"end":6356.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6356.74221875,"end":6358.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6358.88534375,"end":6360.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6360.555968750001,"end":6362.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6363.981593750001,"end":6365.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6365.78721875,"end":6388.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6388.78784375,"end":6401.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6402.01784375,"end":6406.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6406.84409375,"end":6408.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6408.53159375,"end":6409.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6409.71284375,"end":6409.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6409.729718750001,"end":6417.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6417.76221875,"end":6434.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6435.29534375,"end":6447.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6437.151593750001,"end":6437.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6437.97846875,"end":6438.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6446.888468749999,"end":6457.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6455.055968750001,"end":6455.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6456.10221875,"end":6456.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6457.6209687499995,"end":6502.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6460.9959687499995,"end":6462.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6470.31096875,"end":6470.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6471.5428437499995,"end":6473.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6502.55909375,"end":6511.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6512.144093750001,"end":6523.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6521.897843750001,"end":6530.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6523.720343750001,"end":6523.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6531.077843749999,"end":6532.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6532.47846875,"end":6534.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6534.25034375,"end":6543.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6543.734093749999,"end":6553.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6553.92659375,"end":6554.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6556.05284375,"end":6608.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6609.546593749999,"end":6613.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6613.866593750001,"end":6613.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6613.88346875,"end":6631.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6625.32471875,"end":6625.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6631.484093749999,"end":6634.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6634.09971875,"end":6647.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6636.02346875,"end":6636.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6638.470343750001,"end":6638.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6648.595343750001,"end":6654.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6648.932843750001,"end":6649.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6649.776593750001,"end":6649.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6655.19346875,"end":6659.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6660.71159375,"end":6663.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6660.829718750001,"end":6660.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6664.71096875,"end":6692.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6681.974093750001,"end":6682.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6684.134093750001,"end":6684.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6684.15096875,"end":6684.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6692.571593750001,"end":6703.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6704.36721875,"end":6707.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6708.417218750001,"end":6711.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6711.52221875,"end":6731.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6732.61596875,"end":6740.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6741.1209687499995,"end":6745.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6745.47471875,"end":6760.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6760.88159375,"end":6761.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6761.03346875,"end":6761.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6761.53971875,"end":6761.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6761.55659375,"end":6761.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6762.029093749999,"end":6762.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6763.27784375,"end":6764.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6766.112843750001,"end":6770.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6770.618468750001,"end":6773.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6774.19596875,"end":6774.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6777.16596875,"end":6777.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6777.4697187500005,"end":6779.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6784.52346875,"end":6785.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6786.885968750001,"end":6787.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6789.61971875,"end":6790.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6790.14284375,"end":6797.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6798.10784375,"end":6801.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6802.529093749999,"end":6824.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6824.432843750001,"end":6835.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6835.33409375,"end":6835.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6836.059718750001,"end":6847.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6848.429093750001,"end":6849.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6849.374093750001,"end":6852.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6852.86721875,"end":6854.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6855.21284375,"end":6878.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6878.382218750001,"end":6888.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6888.794093750001,"end":6889.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6889.722218750001,"end":6925.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6926.340968750001,"end":6930.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6930.880343750001,"end":6936.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6937.09034375,"end":6968.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6968.798468750001,"end":6976.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6977.64096875,"end":6993.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6994.75221875,"end":7000.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7000.70909375,"end":7001.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7001.35034375,"end":7003.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7003.61159375,"end":7004.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7005.180968750001,"end":7006.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7006.311593750001,"end":7006.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7006.32846875,"end":7018.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7006.733468750001,"end":7008.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7018.88346875,"end":7027.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7027.70909375,"end":7094.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7095.19221875,"end":7120.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7121.2303437499995,"end":7126.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7128.67221875,"end":7130.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7129.920968750001,"end":7136.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7136.468468750001,"end":7168.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7169.30721875,"end":7171.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7172.22659375,"end":7185.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7185.321593750001,"end":7191.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7190.78909375,"end":7193.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7193.97846875,"end":7194.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7194.40034375,"end":7210.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7196.239718750001,"end":7196.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7211.984093750001,"end":7213.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7213.958468750001,"end":7219.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7219.66221875,"end":7226.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7226.378468750001,"end":7250.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7251.741593750001,"end":7254.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7254.137843750001,"end":7270.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7256.63534375,"end":7258.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7259.807843750001,"end":7260.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7265.64659375,"end":7267.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7270.304093750001,"end":7276.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7277.64471875,"end":7287.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7287.98909375,"end":7289.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7289.659718750001,"end":7290.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7291.22909375,"end":7291.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7292.44409375,"end":7298.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7300.341593749999,"end":7314.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7306.75409375,"end":7306.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7306.821593750001,"end":7306.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7306.83846875,"end":7306.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7315.19159375,"end":7316.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7315.41096875,"end":7315.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7315.47846875,"end":7315.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7315.51221875,"end":7315.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7315.79909375,"end":7315.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7315.815968750001,"end":7315.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7316.0184687500005,"end":7316.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7319.950343750001,"end":7320.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7321.215968750001,"end":7324.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7332.184718750001,"end":7335.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7339.08659375,"end":7339.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7339.10346875,"end":7339.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7339.154093749999,"end":7339.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7339.60971875,"end":7339.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7340.1834687499995,"end":7352.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7352.31659375,"end":7353.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7353.548468750001,"end":7357.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7358.49284375,"end":7359.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7360.4334687499995,"end":7361.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7362.374093750001,"end":7368.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7369.343468750001,"end":7372.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7376.22846875,"end":7383.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7384.109093750001,"end":7393.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7394.63909375,"end":7400.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7400.5115937499995,"end":7403.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7404.325343750001,"end":7406.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7407.61596875,"end":7408.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7409.2528437500005,"end":7419.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7420.84596875,"end":7429.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7430.616593750001,"end":7441.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7441.99034375,"end":7456.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7456.6209687499995,"end":7457.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7457.63346875,"end":7458.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7459.42221875,"end":7459.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7460.78909375,"end":7470.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7470.323468750001,"end":7471.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7471.3865937499995,"end":7471.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7471.437218750001,"end":7477.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7480.7353437500005,"end":7484.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7482.827843750001,"end":7484.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7484.39721875,"end":7484.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7485.932843750001,"end":7489.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7490.624093750001,"end":7494.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7494.67409375,"end":7515.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7515.919718749999,"end":7519.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7519.27784375,"end":7520.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7520.93159375,"end":7530.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7530.735968750001,"end":7541.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7541.856593750001,"end":7551.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7551.559718750001,"end":7563.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7563.405968750001,"end":7579.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7580.247218750001,"end":7583.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7584.314093750001,"end":7584.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7584.95534375,"end":7596.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7597.42596875,"end":7603.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7603.80471875,"end":7607.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7605.44159375,"end":7605.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7606.6903437500005,"end":7608.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7608.63096875,"end":7615.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7613.710343750001,"end":7627.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7628.02034375,"end":7636.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7636.74471875,"end":7664.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7636.79534375,"end":7638.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7664.655968750001,"end":7682.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7683.53909375,"end":7706.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7706.97846875,"end":7714.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7714.84221875,"end":7714.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7714.960343750001,"end":7715.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7716.462218750001,"end":7719.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7720.529093749999,"end":7723.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7723.110968750001,"end":7724.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7724.984093750001,"end":7727.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7727.9540937500005,"end":7729.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7729.60784375,"end":7730.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7731.075968749999,"end":7732.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7732.577843750001,"end":7733.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7734.974093750001,"end":7738.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7739.850968750001,"end":7739.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7759.493468750001,"end":7759.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7759.5272187499995,"end":7764.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7762.85159375,"end":7763.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7764.640343750001,"end":7765.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7767.47534375,"end":7767.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7771.79534375,"end":7772.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7773.0947187500005,"end":7773.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7774.69784375,"end":7776.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7776.4022187499995,"end":7778.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7778.30909375,"end":7778.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7779.20346875,"end":7779.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7779.8447187500005,"end":7779.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7780.33409375,"end":7783.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7784.012843750001,"end":7787.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7788.130343750001,"end":7790.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7791.0497187500005,"end":7794.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7794.86346875,"end":7798.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7798.491593750001,"end":7801.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7802.69346875,"end":7803.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7804.110968750001,"end":7805.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7806.692843750001,"end":7808.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7808.937218750001,"end":7810.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7811.384093750001,"end":7813.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7814.26971875,"end":7816.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7816.09221875,"end":7816.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7816.93596875,"end":7818.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7819.60221875,"end":7819.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7819.61909375,"end":7822.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7823.17971875,"end":7826.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7827.53346875,"end":7830.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7831.04346875,"end":7833.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7833.47346875,"end":7836.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7837.50659375,"end":7844.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7845.454718750001,"end":7846.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7847.007218750001,"end":7848.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7848.9647187499995,"end":7850.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7850.9559687500005,"end":7852.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7854.5165937500005,"end":7856.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7857.452843750001,"end":7865.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7866.02534375,"end":7867.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7869.450968749999,"end":7870.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7871.54346875,"end":7872.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7873.36596875,"end":7874.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7874.935343749999,"end":7876.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7877.31471875,"end":7885.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7885.43159375,"end":7888.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7889.9540937500005,"end":7894.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7894.679093750001,"end":7895.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7896.079718750001,"end":7905.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7905.42846875,"end":7909.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7909.630343750001,"end":7910.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7910.811593750001,"end":7914.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7914.591593749999,"end":7915.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7916.65034375,"end":7919.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7919.232218749999,"end":7925.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7925.796593750001,"end":7926.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7927.46721875,"end":7928.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7928.73284375,"end":7937.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7937.40659375,"end":7938.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7938.90846875,"end":7944.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7944.966593749999,"end":7947.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7950.501593750001,"end":7951.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7952.712218750001,"end":7959.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7959.968468750001,"end":7963.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7964.45721875,"end":7965.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7965.604718750001,"end":7966.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7967.62971875,"end":7968.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7968.81096875,"end":7970.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7971.139718750001,"end":7972.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7972.89471875,"end":7974.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7975.155968750001,"end":8001.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8001.53159375,"end":8004.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8009.44596875,"end":8009.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8010.4247187500005,"end":8012.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8014.3397187499995,"end":8015.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8015.97659375,"end":8016.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8017.09034375,"end":8019.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8020.41471875,"end":8022.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8023.013468750001,"end":8025.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8025.747218750001,"end":8029.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8029.66221875,"end":8030.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8030.286593750001,"end":8030.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8031.06284375,"end":8035.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8035.484093750001,"end":8040.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8040.9853437500005,"end":8048.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8049.220343750001,"end":8050.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8051.751593750001,"end":8053.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8053.304093750001,"end":8054.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8055.71721875,"end":8057.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8058.602843750001,"end":8062.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8063.12534375,"end":8064.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8064.72846875,"end":8068.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8070.077843750001,"end":8073.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8074.212218750001,"end":8079.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8079.966593750001,"end":8081.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8081.9072187500005,"end":8082.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8087.189093750001,"end":8087.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8089.0115937499995,"end":8103.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8103.06846875,"end":8104.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8104.84034375,"end":8105.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8105.700968750001,"end":8107.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8107.6415937500005,"end":8108.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8108.02971875,"end":8109.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8109.700343750001,"end":8111.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8112.0965937500005,"end":8112.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8112.16409375,"end":8112.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8112.34971875,"end":8112.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8112.366593750001,"end":8112.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8112.43409375,"end":8112.450968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8112.85596875,"end":8115.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8113.530968750001,"end":8113.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8115.30284375,"end":8115.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8116.028468750001,"end":8124.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8125.42784375,"end":8126.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8128.83659375,"end":8128.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8128.870343750001,"end":8128.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8128.920968750001,"end":8129.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8129.984093750001,"end":8130.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8130.49034375,"end":8140.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8139.737843750001,"end":8144.091593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8144.63159375,"end":8146.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8147.061593750001,"end":8150.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8150.30159375,"end":8151.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8152.495343750001,"end":8153.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8154.503468750001,"end":8155.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8156.49471875,"end":8157.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8158.1990937499995,"end":8159.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8159.7684687500005,"end":8162.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8164.442843750001,"end":8167.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8167.919093750001,"end":8170.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8171.07471875,"end":8172.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8172.86346875,"end":8173.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8174.44971875,"end":8178.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8179.157843750001,"end":8182.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8183.59596875,"end":8184.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8185.04721875,"end":8193.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8193.855968750002,"end":8195.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8195.57721875,"end":8197.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8197.754093750002,"end":8203.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8204.33534375,"end":8206.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8206.79909375,"end":8210.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8211.54096875,"end":8212.165343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8212.95846875,"end":8214.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8215.152218750001,"end":8215.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8216.33346875,"end":8216.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8217.649718749999,"end":8218.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8219.016593750002,"end":8220.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8220.805343750002,"end":8221.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8222.45909375,"end":8224.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8225.344718750002,"end":8226.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8227.53846875,"end":8229.462218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8229.968468750001,"end":8232.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8232.347843750002,"end":8234.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8234.28846875,"end":8237.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8238.372218750003,"end":8240.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8241.22409375,"end":8243.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8244.12659375,"end":8244.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8245.493468749999,"end":8247.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8248.176593750002,"end":8252.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8253.492218750001,"end":8255.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8255.669093750003,"end":8259.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8261.69346875,"end":8263.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8264.207843750002,"end":8265.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8266.11471875,"end":8267.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8268.64596875,"end":8270.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8270.384093749999,"end":8271.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8272.02096875,"end":8272.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8273.168468750002,"end":8274.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8274.062843750002,"end":8275.024718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8275.46346875,"end":8276.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8277.74159375,"end":8279.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8279.294093750003,"end":8280.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8281.065968750001,"end":8281.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8282.196593749999,"end":8283.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8284.727843749999,"end":8285.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8285.89221875,"end":8289.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8289.891593750002,"end":8293.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8293.77284375,"end":8295.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8296.101593750001,"end":8301.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8302.78409375,"end":8306.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8307.171593750001,"end":8308.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8308.707218750002,"end":8311.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8312.571593750003,"end":8313.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8314.17471875,"end":8315.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8315.946593750003,"end":8316.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8316.97596875,"end":8319.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8319.69284375,"end":8321.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8323.75971875,"end":8324.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8326.645343750002,"end":8327.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8328.265343750001,"end":8329.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8330.762843750003,"end":8333.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8333.56409375,"end":8335.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8337.74909375,"end":8339.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8341.309718750003,"end":8343.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8343.874718750001,"end":8344.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8345.933468750001,"end":8349.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8350.742843750002,"end":8352.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8352.700343750003,"end":8354.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8354.62409375,"end":8355.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8356.699718750002,"end":8357.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8359.19721875,"end":8360.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8361.188468750002,"end":8362.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8363.820968750002,"end":8366.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8369.00159375,"end":8370.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8371.617218750001,"end":8374.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8375.835968750001,"end":8379.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8380.61159375,"end":8385.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8385.707843750002,"end":8388.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8389.42034375,"end":8390.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8392.25534375,"end":8396.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8396.727218750002,"end":8398.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8399.02221875,"end":8409.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8408.70846875,"end":8412.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8412.15096875,"end":8415.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8413.77096875,"end":8416.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8417.601593750001,"end":8419.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8419.710968750001,"end":8423.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8426.511593750001,"end":8431.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8430.54471875,"end":8431.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8431.169093750003,"end":8431.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8431.30409375,"end":8432.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8432.29971875,"end":8441.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8442.69471875,"end":8445.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8445.95159375,"end":8447.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8447.875343750002,"end":8449.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8449.680968750003,"end":8459.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8460.278468750003,"end":8463.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8464.31159375,"end":8470.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8472.512843750003,"end":8475.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8475.668468750002,"end":8477.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8477.69346875,"end":8483.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8484.747218750003,"end":8485.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8486.13096875,"end":8487.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8488.223468750002,"end":8488.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8488.965968750003,"end":8496.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8496.239093750002,"end":8502.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8502.48284375,"end":8503.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8504.27159375,"end":8504.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8505.621593750002,"end":8507.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8507.781593750002,"end":8522.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8523.981593750003,"end":8525.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8525.702843750001,"end":8533.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8533.195343750001,"end":8534.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8534.71409375,"end":8536.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8536.637843750003,"end":8540.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8541.29534375,"end":8542.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8543.320343750001,"end":8544.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8545.480343750001,"end":8547.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8548.062218750001,"end":8552.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8553.074093750001,"end":8555.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8555.655968750001,"end":8557.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8558.558468750001,"end":8559.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8559.73971875,"end":8563.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8564.29596875,"end":8574.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8576.10846875,"end":8576.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8577.77909375,"end":8578.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8578.032218750002,"end":8579.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8581.035968750002,"end":8582.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8583.22971875,"end":8583.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8584.95096875,"end":8585.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8585.96346875,"end":8587.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8587.38096875,"end":8588.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8588.76471875,"end":8591.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8591.515343750001,"end":8597.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8598.180968750003,"end":8599.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8599.41284375,"end":8599.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8600.796593750001,"end":8612.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8614.634093750003,"end":8623.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8624.370968750001,"end":8629.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8630.766593750002,"end":8631.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8632.808468750001,"end":8633.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8635.74471875,"end":8637.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8637.75284375,"end":8639.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8639.69346875,"end":8658.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8659.09971875,"end":8660.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8661.58034375,"end":8666.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8666.79471875,"end":8673.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8674.13534375,"end":8676.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8677.08846875,"end":8678.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8678.15159375,"end":8679.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8680.109093750001,"end":8680.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8680.26096875,"end":8680.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8681.003468750001,"end":8682.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8682.42096875,"end":8685.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8687.027843750002,"end":8692.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8693.659718750001,"end":8695.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8695.414718750002,"end":8696.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8697.65909375,"end":8699.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8699.59971875,"end":8700.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8701.03409375,"end":8704.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8705.691593750002,"end":8706.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8708.847218750001,"end":8709.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8710.66971875,"end":8720.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8720.59221875,"end":8721.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8722.22909375,"end":8722.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8723.91659375,"end":8724.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8725.28346875,"end":8725.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8725.992218750001,"end":8728.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8728.253468750001,"end":8730.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8730.683468750001,"end":8731.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8731.965968750003,"end":8732.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8732.050343750001,"end":8733.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8734.530968750001,"end":8737.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8737.93971875,"end":8743.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8744.38596875,"end":8745.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8746.765343750001,"end":8750.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8750.84909375,"end":8753.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8754.207218750002,"end":8754.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8754.257843750001,"end":8754.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8754.88221875,"end":8754.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8755.995968750001,"end":8757.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8757.379718750002,"end":8761.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8761.56471875,"end":8766.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8770.64346875,"end":8770.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8771.68971875,"end":8774.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8774.609093750001,"end":8775.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8775.63846875,"end":8778.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8778.91221875,"end":8779.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8780.633468750002,"end":8784.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8895.77159375,"end":8899.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8900.277218750001,"end":8902.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8903.280968750001,"end":8910.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8909.879093750002,"end":8913.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8911.887218750002,"end":8914.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8913.895343750002,"end":8917.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8916.156593750002,"end":8916.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8917.13534375,"end":8917.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8917.422218750002,"end":8917.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8917.692218750002,"end":8918.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8919.227843750003,"end":8924.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8923.04159375,"end":8926.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8926.872218750003,"end":8929.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8929.977218750002,"end":8932.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8930.972843750002,"end":8936.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8933.06534375,"end":8933.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8936.609093750001,"end":8945.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8945.82284375,"end":8946.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8948.13471875,"end":8952.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8953.68659375,"end":8956.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8957.230343750001,"end":8960.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8959.660343750002,"end":8960.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8960.723468750002,"end":8960.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8960.75721875,"end":8960.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8960.774093750002,"end":8966.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8971.72596875,"end":8972.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8975.691593750002,"end":8978.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8978.35784375,"end":8989.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8989.32659375,"end":8994.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8994.878468750001,"end":9001.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8999.485343750002,"end":8999.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9001.746593750002,"end":9002.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9002.792843750001,"end":9003.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9003.214718750001,"end":9017.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9011.98971875,"end":9013.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9018.030968750001,"end":9023.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9021.675968750002,"end":9025.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9026.485343750002,"end":9028.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9028.915343750003,"end":9032.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9032.492843750002,"end":9033.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9034.77096875,"end":9037.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9037.032218750002,"end":9040.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9037.69034375,"end":9038.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9040.812218750001,"end":9041.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9041.48721875,"end":9042.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9041.622218750003,"end":9041.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9042.027218750001,"end":9042.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9042.73596875,"end":9042.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9043.42784375,"end":9043.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9043.96784375,"end":9044.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9044.085968750001,"end":9044.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9044.96346875,"end":9045.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9122.85846875,"end":9126.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9126.925343750001,"end":9127.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9128.17409375,"end":9128.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9131.66721875,"end":9134.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9135.66659375,"end":9135.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9136.39221875,"end":9140.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9140.62784375,"end":9143.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9144.981593750003,"end":9145.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9145.57221875,"end":9147.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9147.74909375,"end":9151.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9153.722843750002,"end":9154.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9154.769093750001,"end":9159.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9161.839718750001,"end":9162.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9163.898468750001,"end":9164.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9164.92784375,"end":9165.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9165.97409375,"end":9166.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9166.81784375,"end":9187.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9188.417843750001,"end":9191.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9192.02909375,"end":9192.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9192.94034375,"end":9198.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9198.03659375,"end":9211.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9198.644093750001,"end":9200.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9212.86971875,"end":9222.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9222.99471875,"end":9230.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9223.180343750002,"end":9223.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9223.19721875,"end":9223.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9225.94784375,"end":9226.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9228.27659375,"end":9229.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9230.79096875,"end":9236.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9237.86159375,"end":9238.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9238.97534375,"end":9244.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9244.594718750002,"end":9249.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9250.21409375,"end":9251.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9251.10846875,"end":9254.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9255.884093750003,"end":9260.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9260.153468750003,"end":9260.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9260.355968750002,"end":9262.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9263.106593750003,"end":9268.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9269.839718750001,"end":9282.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9271.004093750002,"end":9272.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9272.97846875,"end":9272.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9284.38596875,"end":9290.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9285.297218750002,"end":9285.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9285.33096875,"end":9285.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9290.882843750001,"end":9295.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9295.692218750002,"end":9299.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9299.640968750002,"end":9302.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9302.72909375,"end":9312.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9312.60096875,"end":9320.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9320.39721875,"end":9326.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9326.77596875,"end":9326.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9327.602843750003,"end":9327.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9327.97409375,"end":9328.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9328.63221875,"end":9332.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9333.10409375,"end":9341.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9335.95596875,"end":9336.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9336.968468750001,"end":9337.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9337.035968750002,"end":9337.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9337.407218750002,"end":9337.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9340.984718750002,"end":9341.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9341.00159375,"end":9341.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9341.81159375,"end":9341.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9342.081593750001,"end":9355.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9342.13221875,"end":9342.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9355.024718750003,"end":9356.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9356.847218750001,"end":9361.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9361.96034375,"end":9363.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9363.968468750001,"end":9365.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9365.74034375,"end":9367.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9368.28846875,"end":9382.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9382.699718750002,"end":9384.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9384.30284375,"end":9396.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9396.790343750003,"end":9401.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9401.886593750001,"end":9407.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9407.35409375,"end":9408.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9408.97409375,"end":9416.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9415.62284375,"end":9416.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9416.58471875,"end":9418.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9417.47909375,"end":9417.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9418.91346875,"end":9422.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9422.64284375,"end":9436.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9422.659718750001,"end":9423.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9434.640968750002,"end":9435.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9436.024718750003,"end":9445.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9445.829093750002,"end":9460.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9461.03346875,"end":9462.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9462.56909375,"end":9469.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9469.875968750002,"end":9471.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9471.985343750002,"end":9485.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9472.019093750001,"end":9472.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9485.434718750003,"end":9496.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9487.577843750001,"end":9487.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9490.379093750002,"end":9490.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9496.555343750002,"end":9499.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9499.84596875,"end":9502.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9503.00159375,"end":9509.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9509.886593750001,"end":9514.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9514.594718750002,"end":9515.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9515.82659375,"end":9519.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9520.382843750001,"end":9521.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9522.00284375,"end":9522.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9522.390968750002,"end":9540.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9522.441593750002,"end":9522.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9540.278468750003,"end":9554.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9554.06534375,"end":9554.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9555.21284375,"end":9560.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9560.511593750001,"end":9560.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9561.49034375,"end":9561.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9561.96284375,"end":9562.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9562.992218750001,"end":9568.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9567.17721875,"end":9567.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9568.03784375,"end":9568.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9568.08846875,"end":9569.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9568.223468750002,"end":9572.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9571.61534375,"end":9572.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9573.45471875,"end":9607.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9609.28034375,"end":9612.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9615.034718750001,"end":9616.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9616.38471875,"end":9622.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9623.94471875,"end":9624.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9624.97409375,"end":9635.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9626.89784375,"end":9629.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9634.27221875,"end":9634.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9635.031593750002,"end":9645.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9646.169093750003,"end":9665.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9665.254718750002,"end":9666.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9667.144718750002,"end":9668.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9669.16971875,"end":9669.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9669.794093750003,"end":9673.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9673.30409375,"end":9673.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9674.535968750002,"end":9675.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9675.480968750002,"end":9676.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9677.050343750001,"end":9678.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9678.50159375,"end":9679.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9679.902218750001,"end":9681.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9681.437843750002,"end":9695.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9695.74784375,"end":9697.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9697.53659375,"end":9710.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9711.27284375,"end":9712.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9717.21284375,"end":9718.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9718.64721875,"end":9722.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9722.44409375,"end":9726.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9726.848468750002,"end":9775.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9779.07659375,"end":9780.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9782.70471875,"end":9783.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9785.640968750002,"end":9786.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9785.70846875,"end":9786.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9786.87284375,"end":9787.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9787.024718750003,"end":9788.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9788.965343750002,"end":9789.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9789.03284375,"end":9910.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9910.735343750002,"end":9911.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9911.17409375,"end":9932.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9933.769718750002,"end":9950.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9949.36221875,"end":9950.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9950.644718750002,"end":9956.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9957.36096875,"end":9959.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9959.031593750002,"end":9959.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9959.723468750002,"end":9988.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9988.832843750002,"end":10011.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10012.00221875,"end":10062.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10062.77909375,"end":10066.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10067.453468750002,"end":10099.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10100.140343750001,"end":10103.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10103.76846875,"end":10124.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10124.81159375,"end":10150.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10151.625968750002,"end":10205.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10208.07284375,"end":10211.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10211.12721875,"end":10217.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10218.164093750001,"end":10218.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10219.31159375,"end":10221.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10222.011593750001,"end":10223.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10224.087218750003,"end":10267.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10267.91159375,"end":10320.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10321.28721875,"end":10362.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10362.90096875,"end":10366.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10366.714718750001,"end":10379.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10378.544093750003,"end":10383.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10384.079093750002,"end":10388.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10388.41596875,"end":10390.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10390.52534375,"end":10405.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10405.30784375,"end":10413.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10413.644093750001,"end":10415.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10415.80409375,"end":10416.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10416.985343750002,"end":10423.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10423.81971875,"end":10427.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10428.17346875,"end":10436.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10436.762843750003,"end":10448.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10449.199718750002,"end":10461.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10461.535343750002,"end":10464.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10464.62346875,"end":10465.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10465.855343750001,"end":10483.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10484.14784375,"end":10492.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10492.230968750002,"end":10500.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10501.242218750001,"end":10503.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10503.68909375,"end":10520.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10520.98596875,"end":10531.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10531.718468750001,"end":10535.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10535.937218750001,"end":10537.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10538.18159375,"end":10539.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10539.734093750001,"end":10544.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10544.88096875,"end":10549.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10549.52159375,"end":10551.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10552.356593750003,"end":10563.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10563.257843750001,"end":10568.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10569.282218750002,"end":10584.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10584.672218750002,"end":10586.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10586.427218750003,"end":10590.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10591.01721875,"end":10592.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10593.04221875,"end":10593.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10597.41284375,"end":10598.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10598.77971875,"end":10599.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10599.977843750003,"end":10613.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10614.574718750002,"end":10614.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10616.009093750003,"end":10640.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10642.03034375,"end":10642.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10646.40096875,"end":10646.755343750003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1927.861,"end":1933.648,"text":"報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們先進行報告事項宣讀上次的會議事錄"},{"start":1941.929,"end":1962.738,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由（實現中華民國113年5月23日星期四上午9時至12時57分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員省委員發會等13人列席委員政委員天才等7人列席官員立法院秘書長周萬來等人"},{"start":1964.159,"end":1985.992,"text":"主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項一宣讀上司會議事錄決定確定第二至第五立法院秘書長韓維一百十三年度中央政府總預算決議檢送本院單位預算決議一至三及三十七預算凍結書面報告請查照案等四案。六、行政院人事行政總署韓維一百十三年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議二預算凍結書面報告請查照案。"},{"start":1990.234,"end":2015.855,"text":"決定第二案至第六案均准於被查提報院會（討論事項（併案審查行政院含情審議洗錢防治法修正草案等四案本次會委員審法會等12人提出質詢委員翁曉林等3人提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二本案令定期繼續審查三委員質詢時要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請訴送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2019.724,"end":2044.206,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在先介紹那個在場委員那先介紹審法會委員王育敏委員黃孟楷委員好謝謝各位那我們接下來介紹應邀列席的官員法務部的政務次長徐錫翔次長"},{"start":2046.646,"end":2069.275,"text":"檢察司副司長檢美惠副司長檢察司主任檢察官劉怡婷主任司法院刑事廳廳長李踏任刑事廳法官朱家川衛福部保護司科長潘英美訴法部法制處副處長吳一倫"},{"start":2072.606,"end":2095.76,"text":"金管會法規制度組組長劉萬基國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處處長劉蔡志魯內政部警政署防治副組長施怡仙李庭長那個"},{"start":2098.097,"end":2102.2,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條"},{"start":2107.461,"end":2109.082,"text":"三九條之四條文修正草案等17案。」"},{"start":2129.156,"end":2156.094,"text":"因為開會通知載明第二案併案中之關號17委員魯明哲等16人提案各黨團若未提出不附議同意書則不予審查該案因為提出不附議同意書故今日不予併案審查好那我們現在先進行提案說明及報告進行提案說明發言時間3分鐘第一請提案人洪孟楷委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2162.904,"end":2165.766,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":2178.274,"end":2195.293,"text":"很可惜其中關於延長兒少性侵追溯時效的修法並未及時充分的被討論以及修正。因此本會期再次提出延長兒少性侵追溯時效的憲法修正草案。最重要就是要將追溯期從"},{"start":2196.835,"end":2226.027,"text":"一開始起算到變成被害人成年之後或是有意願有能力可以參與偵查及審判程序時才開始起算以充分保障被害人的權利首先有見兒童跟青少年在歷經性侵害後往往不容易在短時間內揭發性侵害的經歷我們也看到非常多的案例包括說有國小學童可能他在相關的求學過程當中"},{"start":2226.667,"end":2231.43,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":2256.761,"end":2282.222,"text":"基於額紹的性侵跟猥褻案件的特殊性,額紹遭遇性侵及猥褻的當下,往往不知道自己正遭受到侵害,或是在當下不知道怎麼樣行使權利,或是迫使與加害人巨大權利的不對等,當下難以求助。而過了日後跟成年,有可能已經超過了刑事追溯期,也因此我們當然要予以修正。"},{"start":2282.722,"end":2307.379,"text":"因此本席特別提出來修正刑法八十三條第一項第二項的規定乃明定追溯其權其效至成年前停止進行明定當被害者已成年或是當被害者雖然未成年但是對於自身被害的事實充分認識有意願及能力能夠參與偵查及審判的程序時追溯權才繼續進行"},{"start":2309.8,"end":2311.482,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法"},{"start":2326.698,"end":2327.418,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":2346.55,"end":2361.617,"text":"規權的方式來去看待而是當我們要給予最基本的保障如果說有任何的犯罪者利用自己的權勢身份地位意圖對於未成年的不管是少男少女來進行性侵害的話"},{"start":2362.179,"end":2364.48,"text":"刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條條文"},{"start":2386.989,"end":2412.615,"text":"中華民國我們台灣應該與時俱進因此請各位委員及行政部門能夠支持本席的修法刑法八十三條我們一起努力為青少年為未成年的兒童來築起一道可以保護他們的最基本的保護牆謝謝好謝謝洪委員那接下來我們請王育敏委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2420.074,"end":2439.912,"text":"謝謝今天吳宗憲召委排案審查本席所提案的有關於增訂刑法第八十條之一針對未成年兒少施行性犯罪要取消刑事追訴的時效那本席會這樣子提出這樣的一個提案"},{"start":2440.532,"end":2441.632,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2461.219,"end":2462.6,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2482.288,"end":2483.871,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2498.211,"end":2518.936,"text":"到現在他才敢把這件事情透露給他很信任的朋友而這樣的痛苦也導致他的憂鬱他的折磨甚至讓他有自殺的想法所以我認為這樣的一個性侵案件特別是發生在孩子年幼時期的這些案件對他們來講對當事人來講都是很難抹滅的傷害而司法正義不應該行事追溯期只有20年"},{"start":2527.658,"end":2550.879,"text":"對於這些事隔幾十年之後他想要去起訴這些傷害他的人我覺得我們的司法應該要賦予他有這樣的一個權利那包括我們看到在2022年未滿18歲被性侵的這一些兒少的人數也都高達將近五千件那更不用去講這當中"},{"start":2551.92,"end":2553.161,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":2568.053,"end":2569.854,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八"},{"start":2589.468,"end":2615.571,"text":"有關於增訂刑法第八十條之一針對未成年兒少施行性犯罪應該要取消刑事追溯的時效。那我認為這個法案如果我們想要給兒少更好的保護我們要給女性朋友就是他們的權益更多的保障那還給他們在司法上面的正義取消這樣的刑事追溯期"},{"start":2616.031,"end":2618.092,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":2642.216,"end":2659.728,"text":"事件已經宣讀完畢,尚未確定,現在先確定議事錄。請問各位就上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有的話會議議事錄確定。接著我們請機關代表報告。發言時間是3分鐘。我們首先請法務部徐次長報告。"},{"start":2665.598,"end":2692.825,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就並案審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具中華民國刑法八十三條條文修正草案委員王育敏等21人擬具中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案案代表本部列席報告並備質詢那分數如下敬請指教"},{"start":2694.674,"end":2718.849,"text":"一、前言追溯時效系國家舊犯罪行為經過一段時間未予追溯後,既不得再對該犯罪行為進行追溯。此等制度之目的,除考量法制序之安定性外,同時也在督促執法機關擅禁追溯義務。有關追溯權時效及停止之規定,歷經94年2月2日、108年5月29日兩度修法,兼衡實現"},{"start":2724.832,"end":2743.122,"text":"訴追犯罪之目的及法安定性及社會秩序之考量。感謝各位委員長期對兒少權益保障之關心。本部表示敬佩之意。對於委員提案修法目的均表贊同。以下僅就委員所提出法案表示法制面之意見。"},{"start":2750.95,"end":2758.44,"text":"條條文修正草案．提案重點．修正刑法第八十三條第一項及第二項規定明定未成年為"},{"start":2761.104,"end":2775.3,"text":"犯罪被害人時追訴時效致其陳年前停止進行本部意見。草案將此三種停止原因分列第一款到第三款本部競表尊重。"},{"start":2776.498,"end":2791.571,"text":"二、若欲就個別罪名增列特別追訴權時效停止之原因,依舊各法役刑度罪名審慎通盤考量為妥。第三、現行刑法八十條規定性侵害"},{"start":2792.532,"end":2817.87,"text":"犯罪不含特別法追溯權時效已有二十到三十年,不致造成此類案件於被害人成年後尋求刑事程序,卻擬於追溯權時效而無法訴追之情形。故八十三條是否有修正必要,見請再酌。第四,草案有關其特別法之罪,所指為何?"},{"start":2818.61,"end":2842.551,"text":"比較沒有具體的規定（恐怕有違明確性的原則。第二（有關委員王育敏等21人擬具《中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案》案。提案重點（增訂第八十條之一使對未成年刑妨礙性自主或強制性交等不受第八十條追訴實效之適用。本部意見"},{"start":2844.112,"end":2871.543,"text":"欲就個別罪名排除罪訴權時效之適用．依舊各法役刑度．罪名審慎通盤考量為妥。第二．依照憲刑法第八十條規定．性侵害犯罪．不含特別法．罪訴權時效已有二十到三十年期間．不致造成此類案件於被害人成年後．欲尋求刑事程序．卻因以罪訴權時效而無法訴罪之情形．"},{"start":2872.003,"end":2895.36,"text":"故八十條是否有修正必要,敬請在座。第三,草案有關於其特別法之罪,所指為何有違明確性原則。以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教。好,謝謝次長。其餘機關報告請參閱書面。那機關代表報告完畢。相關書面報告列入公報記錄。"},{"start":2904.646,"end":2921.135,"text":"提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢。現在我們開始進行詢答。本會委員時間為8分鐘,非本會委員為4分鐘。均不再延長。上午10點30分截止發言登記。現在請登記第一位審法會委員發言。"},{"start":2938.09,"end":2946.642,"text":"主席有請法務部次長。請次長。不好意思。次長。謝謝主席、委員長。"},{"start":2950.528,"end":2970.883,"text":"市長早安今天非常感謝我們主席今天安排有關刑法第八十條或者是八十三條的修正大致上就是有關刑法追溯權檢討對兒少的性侵害案件的追溯權的這些檢討"},{"start":2981.34,"end":3006.281,"text":"這裡我們看到的幾個目前的委員的提案大概一個是希望能夠完全排除時效的規定另外一個是希望時效的起算從成年期開始我想今天之所以這個案子我們今天主席會排審"},{"start":3007.455,"end":3010.477,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":3028.171,"end":3031.672,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":3058.479,"end":3062.802,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":3083.917,"end":3086.32,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3104.198,"end":3132.348,"text":"另外呢我想這個因為因為進行這個之前一段時間發生的這些咪吐以及相關的這些對於兒少的這些這些性犯罪激起了社會的公憤那當然這個對國民來講這個國民的法感情來講這個逍遙法外讓這些犯罪因為時間的關係逍遙法外目前可能造成這個國人國民的法感情的沒有辦法接受"},{"start":3135.389,"end":3156.234,"text":"所以我在這裡就是要但是我剛剛聽了我們這個法務部的報告大致上對於這樣子的修法基本上是覺得應該要在審慎在通盤的考量這部分我同意但是就是因為有這樣子的提案就是希望我們法務部就針對這些相關的時效規定能夠進行通盤的考量"},{"start":3157.588,"end":3185.036,"text":"那我想先救教這個市長目前目前我們我國的這個刑法有沒有其他的其他的這個犯罪樣態他完全排除時效之規定目前現行法完全排除時效的規定不是那個暫時停止原因就是說他的因為因為犯罪構成要件形態而這個這個排除完全排除時效之的的適用"},{"start":3185.714,"end":3213.695,"text":"目前的規定目前的規定就是在八十條的第一項第一款裡面那個是停止對就如果有發生就是犯罪重視為本行死刑無期徒刑十年以上有期徒刑是三十年但是如果發生死亡結果的話對發生死亡結果我是說他就不再執憲就這個都是跟這個後面的這個停止要件是一樣的還有國家情報的我現在是說有沒有針對犯罪的太陽"},{"start":3215.071,"end":3224.016,"text":"對於這個構成要件而排除這個追溯時效的。國家情報工作法裡面也有規定。國家情報工作法有一條有規定完全排除時效嗎?來來來,要不要說明一下。我們請副市長。副市長。"},{"start":3242.21,"end":3246.835,"text":"國際情報工作法的規定就是他特別排除了刑法八十條追訴權失效的適用所以目前就我們所知有排除適用的這一條加上刑法剛才次長有提到的八十條第一項第一款發生死亡這個死亡情況這不一樣了他是他是他"},{"start":3265.374,"end":3266.355,"text":"國際情報工作法 國際情報工作法"},{"start":3278.206,"end":3299.065,"text":"當然我講到說國民的法感情對於對於這個犯罪的逍遙法外齁基本上沒有辦法接受尤其是每當發生大家認為人神共憤齁認為說應該言語懲治的案件的時候大家就會認為說這個時效的規定齁因為時間而讓犯罪逍遙法外認為不妥但是這個這個市長這個"},{"start":3304.212,"end":3319.093,"text":"全世界的這些成文法的規定相關規定他都有這個追溯時效的規定有這個追溯權時效的規定他一定有他的道理為什麼會規定一個時間來讓這個犯罪犯罪者消耗法外呢"},{"start":3319.847,"end":3342.079,"text":"報告委員這是一個法的安定性的考量就是在限制執法機關要擅進追溯的義務在一定時間之後如果沒有擅進這個義務應該這個追溯權的實效就要完成所以假設就是說當然對國民法感情來講逍遙法外這件事大家是無法接受的"},{"start":3342.915,"end":3357.09,"text":"但是他實效規定有實效規定他本身在法制序的安定他有他的必要所以所以這個部分我個人認為說這個部分應該要檢討如果法務部覺得說應該通盤檢討那就趕快通盤檢討"},{"start":3360.131,"end":3366.115,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．"},{"start":3387.572,"end":3405.078,"text":"市長你直接那個那個這是副市長副市長我們剪副市長剪副市長你你直接回答好了省掉這個你在在搖耳朵的時間是方法委員那個我們在刑法研究修正小組的時候有針對關於這個性侵害犯罪是不是要有派出時效或者是要另訂那個停止時效的規定過之前有經過討論那多數的委員會認為說我們呃刑法關於性侵害犯罪的法定刑已經比這個德國奧地利瑞士等其他國家要來的重時效也比較長"},{"start":3415.282,"end":3415.843,"text":"條文刑法第八十條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":3427.932,"end":3428.532,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":3448.3,"end":3449.141,"text":"二、繼續併案．一）委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":3473.784,"end":3476.329,"text":"在你們剛剛法務部的書面說明裡面我個人認為說這個沒有辦法對社會交代就是說你們認為說應該通盤檢討但你們沒有拿出你們真正的有通盤檢討"},{"start":3486.325,"end":3488.968,"text":"三條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法"},{"start":3506.087,"end":3526.294,"text":"形態犯罪的追溯損失,要整個就拿掉。確實是有,不是沒有。只是說,因此我是希望說我們法務部還是要針對這個來進行整個的通盤檢討啦。不能每一次委員提案之後,只是說啊這個有這個會有可能上市橫平性,這個我都知道。問題是你們就真的要進行通盤檢討,不是說說而已啦。好不好?次長。是。好,謝謝沈委員。好,接下來為我們請陳俊宇委員發言。"},{"start":3552.213,"end":3555.621,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3559.264,"end":3581.125,"text":"委員長今天我們要審查的是刑法第83條修正和增訂的第八十條之一的條文的草案那內容是有關兒少遭受性侵和猥褻成年後可能超過追溯期限的問題那兒少因為身心尚未發展成熟之前是國家最應該要積極保護的對象您認同嗎認同"},{"start":3582.566,"end":3607.901,"text":"那在憲法第16條也明定人民有請願、訴願及訴訟的權利,但是在幼年的時期遭受到信心的孩子可能當下並不曉得自己遭受到侵害,而是在成長的過程當中對於事情的認知有進一步的了解之後,逐漸形成法律所賦予自身權利的概念,在成年後才有機會去追究加害人。"},{"start":3608.641,"end":3631.269,"text":"但是卻可能因為追溯權的實效問題沒有辦法為自己伸張爭議那我想請教次長目前刑法第八十條針對這個追溯權的概念基礎是什麼那他主要的來來自於行他主要是來自於刑度嗎是的我們八十條"},{"start":3632.51,"end":3661.483,"text":"刑法八十條所列的這些都是以刑度來決定說追訴權的實效。那這個概念大概就是當然我們追訴不法這是我們的義務但是有時候會考慮到法的安定性的問題法制序的安定性的問題那就是在督促執法機關要善盡追訴的義務這是科與執法機關的一個義務所以在執法機關待於行使一段期間之後"},{"start":3661.963,"end":3669.627,"text":"二）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":3681.915,"end":3694.593,"text":"法定性及社會秩序問題以及在舉證上的困難等等。但我認為這些考量也應該要建立在正義和人民對司法的信任之上。」"},{"start":3697.316,"end":3725.612,"text":"這個今天一個成年人對一個毫無抵抗能力的幼童性侵猥褻卻只要等20年之後就可以不用負任何的法律責任受害人卻要承受這份傷痛一輩子那看著加害人逍遙法外我自己都不太能夠接受那相信社會大眾也應該很難接受那我想請問是不是追溯期所設定的時效反而成了加害者脫罪的一個救命符"},{"start":3726.621,"end":3750.667,"text":"最速報演追溯權的時效你從另外一個角度來看執法機關上市的這個追溯權其實對被害人對被告來講他就是在訴訟上得到一個利益那如果用這個角度來看幾乎所有的案子好像都不應該有追溯權時效的問題這我我如果是這真的一個一個被告他做錯壞事情本來就應該被懲罰"},{"start":3751.887,"end":3753.628,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":3776.246,"end":3793.325,"text":"我們從這個2023年的這個衛福部的統計資料來看未成年受害者佔了整體的55%那我想法律應該是要保護弱勢的一方受到這個性侵的兒少應該有更極端的這個弱勢從過去的這個調查結果來看"},{"start":3795.367,"end":3798.588,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等18人擬具 «中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":3818.888,"end":3829.525,"text":"多多的和這個衛福部來溝通看看翔家考慮性犯罪的特殊性也多站在受害者的立場讓這個法律能夠更貼近現實的狀況市長您認為"},{"start":3832.593,"end":3848.427,"text":"我先在這裡跟委員報告保護兒少的權利絕對是法務部一直以來沒有改變過的政策我個人也是副右專主擔任過兩年的副右專主檢察官我對這個狀況其實我是很清楚的"},{"start":3849.548,"end":3853.691,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":3871.502,"end":3877.584,"text":"二）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":3897.31,"end":3900.791,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第三"},{"start":3919.696,"end":3941.307,"text":"蔡清祥前部長就曾經到立法院來進行專案報告當時就有委員提出部分的這個歐美國家對於性犯罪完全沒有追溯實效蔡部長也回應而稍的部分可以討論會收集各國這個狀況來進行綜合的研究那我想請問我們法務部這邊是否已經有研擬各國的這個實施的情況還有相關的辦法"},{"start":3946.755,"end":3947.736,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":3968.038,"end":3985.064,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21"},{"start":3997.85,"end":4011.7,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第16屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19屆第18條文修正草案．一"},{"start":4026.957,"end":4028.74,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":4043.962,"end":4065.914,"text":"報告委員就是說有關於那個取消追溯權時效會不會造成問題的這個部分那就誠如剛才我們書面報告所講的基本上我們就是要考慮一下各罪之間法醫的平衡因為目前我們現在大概就只有國家情報工作法的30條之一是特別排除時效的規定還有80條第一項第一款有造成死亡結果的部分那要不要再納入其他的犯罪或者說有沒有其他犯罪其實跟兒少"},{"start":4066.374,"end":4068.815,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":4095.726,"end":4120.664,"text":"只是到成年之後他才會去了解所以我希望說我們國家要保護我們的這個兒童保護我們的這個幼兒應該是從這個法律面應該去制定比較符合大家所期待的一個這個制度讓未來可以遵循以外也能夠讓這個加害者能夠這個有警惕之心不要說因為我們訂的法如果不夠重的話反而這個變成他們這個"},{"start":4122.705,"end":4123.606,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4152.924,"end":4155.987,"text":"二、繼續併案《中華民國刑法第八十三條》案。"},{"start":4175.302,"end":4185.098,"text":"我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼可以斷得出來但問題就是說你看各個政黨裡面每一個政黨"},{"start":4187.537,"end":4209.046,"text":"這條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同不要說跟國民黨的不同我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法時效本席最擔心的就是什麼大家現在在講說"},{"start":4211.001,"end":4215.484,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法"},{"start":4241.581,"end":4244.508,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等21人擬具"},{"start":4246.519,"end":4272.726,"text":"立法院立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本期要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討"},{"start":4274.511,"end":4300.235,"text":"司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們房屋跟我說明年跟我說破案了"},{"start":4301.874,"end":4323.657,"text":"或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案了我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕"},{"start":4324.77,"end":4326.453,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":4333.752,"end":4337.074,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":4356.144,"end":4377.609,"text":"追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裏面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王育敏王委員是增訂80條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到80條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權10年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是20年"},{"start":4379.189,"end":4405.752,"text":"這對未成年施以這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦我孟楷委員的是83條針對未成年施以妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有"},{"start":4407.374,"end":4409.503,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4412.003,"end":4432.668,"text":"司法及法制委員會裡,我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長。當初蔡部長的答覆說:「追溯權時效是為了法的安定性,有講等於沒講,這大家都知道的。但追溯或通緝時候,就會停止進行。目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效。兒少性犯罪部分可以討論,但時效問題必須整體考量。」我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦。市長您的看法是什麼?"},{"start":4439.926,"end":4464.908,"text":"因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準"},{"start":4466.246,"end":4469.148,"text":"三條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":4496.533,"end":4523.431,"text":"你從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝"},{"start":4524.827,"end":4542.984,"text":"我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效"},{"start":4544.725,"end":4546.706,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":4558.024,"end":4562.267,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4585.302,"end":4610.86,"text":"那另外你去看監察院在2021年所做的報告當中啊就2014到2021這八年裡面教師對學生2949件職員工對學生473件這種通報性平案件就高達3422件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面被害人8401啊高達一半以上被害人都是未成年人"},{"start":4612.281,"end":4633.616,"text":"確實這個部分這些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理報告委員我們補充一點好不好來來來剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年就會跨過他的成年"},{"start":4635.798,"end":4660.967,"text":"所以不是說只有10年,最少都20年所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方針對這些法律的一個修訂你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮我相信在司法法制委員會他本來就是可以只要是涉及到專業都是可以討論的地方你們也不要被民粹給綁死這本來就會有正反"},{"start":4662.048,"end":4670.754,"text":"本來就會有正反。」如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職啊"},{"start":4674.838,"end":4678.32,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":4700.782,"end":4713.753,"text":"在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有他們大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心這個法律"},{"start":4724.83,"end":4732.696,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4753.61,"end":4756.152,"text":"三條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":4771.423,"end":4776.946,"text":"二）立法院第八十三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":4794.736,"end":4795.176,"text":"三條之四條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4816.664,"end":4817.665,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":4833.846,"end":4862.002,"text":"所以說你按照你政院版43條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲取高達一千萬以上的你就增加了339之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外棲房跟三年以上共犯加重棲刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下也擴大了去沒收的一個部分"},{"start":4862.442,"end":4871.148,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":4883.357,"end":4893.343,"text":"草案你5月9號才提出啦這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看你至少我沒有我後面已經提出來了你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備"},{"start":4903.933,"end":4904.834,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會提出的版本是5月9日以前。"},{"start":4914.68,"end":4916.321,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":4939.025,"end":4946.75,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":5081.895,"end":5083.337,"text":"現在開始開會我們接下來請羅志強委員發言有請徐次長還有司法院的李廳長"},{"start":5105.889,"end":5132.91,"text":"議員好在問到今天俄哨的問題之前我還是想就最近國人最關注的國會改革議題來就教兩位我想請問次長你會在國會說謊嗎不會不會嘛 對不對那你知道在國會說謊在美國會被處以多久的刑法最高包委員我不知道"},{"start":5134.315,"end":5163.715,"text":"一年以上一月以上十二月以下那你知道在英國說謊的官員會被最高處多少的刑法?多重的刑法?其實法務部作為一個法治研究單位的話如果說連立法院都已經做出這個分析研究的話就法務部還是要做一點研究啦好不好?因為這是涉及全世界法治這也是法務部應該要關切的事法務部事實上是這個政府的法律守門人"},{"start":5164.755,"end":5188.194,"text":"所以基本上對於各國的法制還是要有所瞭解這個請這個次長傳達部裡面針對各國法制還是要做點功夫研究那我告訴你英國是說謊官員是關兩年啦最高關兩年你知道法國是最高關幾年嗎法國也是最高是關兩年然後你知道日本是關幾年"},{"start":5190.236,"end":5198.058,"text":"日本最重,如果說只是無正當理由拒絕出席宣誓作證是一年以下,但說謊是什麼?"},{"start":5200.113,"end":5221.138,"text":"三個月以上十年以下。」非常好今天法務部就有進入狀況十年最高關十年那在我們新目前已經準備要來審準備要通過的這個關於說謊官員的處罰新的國會改革版本在我們國家你知道最高是說謊官員是處多重的刑罰嗎"},{"start":5222.557,"end":5248.895,"text":"一年一年嘛那你覺得一年中還是十年中我尊重尊重這是數學問題我不是問你價值判斷一年中還是十年中當然是十年中一年中還是三年中當然三年中一年中還是兩年中兩年中啊那我跟你講那你比下去我剛剛講的美國、英國、法國、日本目前台灣最新要通過的哪一個版本對說謊官員刑責是最輕的"},{"start":5253.385,"end":5276.78,"text":"這幾個國家對這五個那當台灣嗎對非常謝謝部長所以我要跟大家釐清的第一件事那另外部長次長你知道嗎我剛剛講這幾個國家他們的所謂的違反聽證調查只處罰官員嗎這些刑法只處罰官員嗎人民有沒有處罰你可以請教幕僚有沒有處罰"},{"start":5278.942,"end":5294.153,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．"},{"start":5309.858,"end":5316.285,"text":"對人民有處刑事法跟沒處刑事法誰比較重?所以我跟各位講第一個為什麼要藉由這個機會透過專業的法務部來釐清一些概念"},{"start":5328.134,"end":5351.369,"text":"台灣我們現在正在審的國會改革版本裡面對說謊官員處罰是這些國家裡面最低的第二個對於人民的部分的話其他國家連刑法都有但是台灣我們現在最新的部分是只有行政法是沒有刑法的那我想再請教一下你知道1993年民進黨其實也推出過國會改革版本"},{"start":5352.49,"end":5379.955,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條的規定是對於人民最高可以處七年以下有期徒刑人民喔!不只官員喔!人民喔!那我想請問處七年以下有期徒刑的這樣的一個版本它的罰則對人民比較重還是今天國民黨的版本國民眾黨的版本人民沒有刑事處罰哪一個比較重?七年以下比較重還是沒有刑事處罰比較重?"},{"start":5381.087,"end":5383.169,"text":"二、繼續併案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":5397.625,"end":5418.43,"text":"第一、刑法沒有到人民而在其他幾個主要民進黨非常想學的民主國家裡面說謊官員處罰也是最輕的民進黨過去的版本甚至罰人民要罰到七年結果今天可以在這邊謠言指控國民黨所以非常謝謝今天部長當然不為難你 次長不為難你"},{"start":5419.29,"end":5442.776,"text":"接下來我們要問到今天關切的問題你知道今年三月媒體才報導一位陽性男子性侵女網友警方採集DNA時發現他涉及三起二十年以前的強盜性侵案請問這時候發現他涉及二十年以前的強盜性侵案請問怎麼處理"},{"start":5445.888,"end":5466.588,"text":"市長怎麼處理這個我們那個司法警察會針對這些證據你直接告訴我以你的法律來講這個案子會怎麼處理最後會怎麼處理會分案調查分案調查告訴你檢方不起訴啦為什麼為什麼不起訴市長為什麼不起訴"},{"start":5472.41,"end":5476.255,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5492.185,"end":5508.628,"text":"事實上到目前為止針對誰的刑事的追溯期裡面你也知道基本上性侵被告他平均所他性侵案被告其實他們跟一般的刑事案被告有一個很大差別是什麼你知道什麼差別嗎被告是不是對性侵案的受害者受害者"},{"start":5516.482,"end":5518.963,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":5536.067,"end":5542.772,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":5561.187,"end":5564.671,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":5580.495,"end":5583.157,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":5602.754,"end":5606.22,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":5616.564,"end":5620.325,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":5639.793,"end":5661.077,"text":"事實上我們知道現在台灣這個所謂的性交猥褻被害人人數怎麼樣不斷的上升嘛對不對我舉個例子你知道我們去年這個6歲到11歲性交猥褻的被害人有多少人2023年6到11歲我告訴你390人12到17歲多少人"},{"start":5666.601,"end":5675.952,"text":"我告訴你2037人你知道從警政署什麼時候開始統計所謂的性交猥褻被害人哪一年開始統計的2002年那我再考你2002年統計到現在你知道哪一年是最高的有史以來最高紀錄是哪一年"},{"start":5687.372,"end":5691.157,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":5702.025,"end":5730.838,"text":"另外以所謂未成年數來看的話在2015年這個未成年性交猥褻被害人數2015年每萬位未成年是有多少人是有5.02人你知道2023年提高到多少嗎每萬位有多少未成年性交猥褻的被害人是7.44成長是1.48倍這跟當時的世界運動是有關係我要跟各位說我要跟那個次長說"},{"start":5733.012,"end":5737.195,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":5758.092,"end":5759.132,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5788.735,"end":5790.037,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5795.523,"end":5797.064,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5825.903,"end":5846.764,"text":"他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲一役,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國94年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。"},{"start":5848.626,"end":5850.528,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5867.367,"end":5880.337,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":5892.807,"end":5893.427,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":5908.217,"end":5909.057,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5932.549,"end":5946.697,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全"},{"start":5956.783,"end":5964.411,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":5973.348,"end":5984.512,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．"},{"start":6000.517,"end":6007.381,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":6023.871,"end":6042.994,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第13屆立法院第14屆立法院第15屆立法院第16屆立法院第17屆立法院第18屆立法院第18屆立法院第19屆立法院第19屆立法院第20屆立法院第21屆立法院第21屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第23屆立法院第23屆立法院第24屆立法院第24屆"},{"start":6044.484,"end":6060.53,"text":"一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑"},{"start":6071.954,"end":6087.752,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21"},{"start":6090.976,"end":6112.67,"text":"二十年的案子如果再不提起的話（法制序安定的部分就是說追訴權時效制度的設計我們是瞭解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守"},{"start":6113.47,"end":6121.433,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":6144.23,"end":6150.698,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":6161.172,"end":6173.299,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":6184.383,"end":6189.865,"text":"法制委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三法制委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":6214.116,"end":6216.938,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6239.212,"end":6255.189,"text":"法務部應有更積極的立法建議。我是這樣做建議。希望到時候在主條審查的時候能夠看到你們有更積極明確的態度來對我們來對修法做出一個很明確的建議。第二個問題我再請問次長。"},{"start":6257.551,"end":6265.834,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":6285.29,"end":6288.331,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":6311.157,"end":6316.641,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八"},{"start":6329.758,"end":6355.977,"text":"比較沒有爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意"},{"start":6356.778,"end":6358.182,"text":"條文刑法第八十條之一條文草案案 案。"},{"start":6364.408,"end":6387.335,"text":"事實上我剛才已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人"},{"start":6389.235,"end":6408.792,"text":"法律明定說可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭所以只有限於這幾種情況如果是證人,證人可以請律師嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":6409.773,"end":6414.716,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":6435.639,"end":6437.981,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":6457.278,"end":6467.607,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．"},{"start":6485.862,"end":6486.322,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6512.33,"end":6517.014,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":6532.528,"end":6552.04,"text":"對在設計上沒有這樣的設計是啊就沒有嘛OK好那我最後請主席再給我一分鐘我想對於針對這一次我們的大法官做出解釋認為說侮辱公然侮辱罪是合憲但是訂出了非常嚴格的標準那個上前請回這個可能請司法院廳長"},{"start":6556.069,"end":6562.137,"text":"三條文刑法第八十三條文刑法第八十三條文刑法第八十三條文刑法第八十三條文刑法第八十三條文刑法第八十三條文刑法"},{"start":6571.049,"end":6587.211,"text":"條文修正草案（事由（立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第21會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":6588.453,"end":6589.734,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6616.203,"end":6641.112,"text":"大法官的解釋在第43段裏面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形下才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路對公務員公難無路我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由"},{"start":6641.972,"end":6650.88,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":6660.674,"end":6662.597,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具〈中華民國刑法第八十三條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6676.456,"end":6702.351,"text":"大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的"},{"start":6704.377,"end":6706.378,"text":"三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":6732.635,"end":6734.158,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":6741.178,"end":6747.34,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":6766.438,"end":6767.798,"text":"合心存委員翁曉琳委員請次長"},{"start":6789.659,"end":6806.351,"text":"委員好是次長好是這樣的我們剛剛看聽到很多的委員都有提到在這次的修法其實早在蔡部長這個在任的時候當時就已經有承諾說"},{"start":6807.552,"end":6834.064,"text":"條文修正草案案 要針對相關兒少的性侵害犯罪等等的追溯時效的問題要進行研議。可是看起來法務部好像動作很慢,到現在都還沒有研議出來一個成果是嗎?報委,我們去年有召開刑修小組討論過,他們認為說這個現有的制度應該足以保障被害人。"},{"start":6836.614,"end":6838.416,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":6853.321,"end":6877.576,"text":"在民間團體還有立法院這裡呼籲希望能夠要強化刑法相關良形的標準的罪行。那麼可以知道其實司法不管是司法院或法務部似乎都背離國民的法情感,好像不了解現在社會的期待、社會的需求是什麼。"},{"start":6878.716,"end":6887.078,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,而這部分的話是我希望新內閣法務部這個部長還有次長您應該也是新任的就是可以多瞭解我們現在民間民意在想什麼我們的期待我們的訴求是什麼而不要每一次就是大家都很積極的在討論某一些法律的議題可是呢你們好像就是作弊上官或是冷冷的看待就是大家現在"},{"start":6908.263,"end":6911.725,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6937.133,"end":6938.654,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":6967.622,"end":6971.205,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":6995.21,"end":7013.105,"text":"判處追溯時效,其實有一個很重要的目的,其實我覺得也是要保障人民的訴訟權利,是不是?報告委員,是。是,憲法上,對,因為憲法第16條裡面就講得很清楚人民有請願、訴願及訴訟的權利。在我們憲法其實是並沒有這個"},{"start":7018.933,"end":7020.516,"text":"刑法第八十條之一條文刑法第八十條之一條文"},{"start":7027.739,"end":7029.24,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":7056.102,"end":7057.003,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":7073.411,"end":7076.992,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":7095.49,"end":7096.13,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7121.274,"end":7125.276,"text":"二）委員王育敏等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":7136.527,"end":7139.388,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":7160.418,"end":7163,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":7185.382,"end":7210.507,"text":"法委員我們目前推到大院的就是打詐司法這個就是我們除了打詐司法之外我們有非常多的法案社會上現在已經有非常多重要的議題希望說法務部這邊可以趕快的研擬譬如說針對這個未成年人犯罪的問題這也是大家民間很關心的議題可是我看你們也沒有什麼作為啊你們這個部分有在研擬了嗎"},{"start":7214.731,"end":7239.441,"text":"法務委員你剛講青少年犯罪的問題是司法院的夜館是好那還有針對像是這個受刑人保外就醫的問題對不對這個我回到我剛剛所提到的就是看到法務部還有司法院你們一些措施你們一些作為其實距離現在人民的法感情很遠的"},{"start":7240.963,"end":7242.546,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":7251.749,"end":7255.331,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員"},{"start":7278.194,"end":7298.43,"text":"我希望就是從現在開始你們可以每一次將這個陳水扁他每一次的延長報告都要送立法院這可以做得到嗎你們同意的這個可能要問請否則我們沒有辦法知道你們所做的核准的理由是什麼"},{"start":7300.41,"end":7304.431,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":7332.493,"end":7347.157,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 判決中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案件 判決中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案件 判決中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案件 判決中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案件 判決中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案件 判決中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案件"},{"start":7360.472,"end":7383.107,"text":"每一次都像死了四個女學生控訴長期性侵體操教練判刑六年十個月為什麼判那麼輕因為有一些是追溯期已經過了女子揭發13歲陳昭高雄補習班王姓老師性侵持續三年"},{"start":7384.178,"end":7406.509,"text":"我們去年上一屆的委員王婉玉委員也一起大聲疾呼而少性侵案法律追溯期應從成年開始算其實這些都是社會上的案例我相信這些不是第一例也不會是最後一例那本席在今天的立法過程裡面我就特別有提到"},{"start":7407.619,"end":7413.003,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":7420.862,"end":7436.467,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第16屆第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條文修正草案．一）立法院第20條文修正草案．一）立法院第21條文修正草案．一）立法院第22條文修正草案．一）立法院第23條文修正草案．一）立法院第24條文修正草案．一）立法院第27"},{"start":7442.042,"end":7444.865,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":7460.874,"end":7476.747,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21"},{"start":7490.66,"end":7520.153,"text":"一百一十一年二零二二年二十八件。」在往前回推每年都有十幾二十幾件不等當然這一些件數是不是他全都是未成年性侵不一定但是本席要強調的是什麼是性侵害案件不起訴的人數因為時效已經過期每年都還是有二三十人不等甚至二零二三年高達四十五人換言之他就是一種相關的漏洞他逃過了"},{"start":7521.444,"end":7524.367,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":7542.02,"end":7544.362,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":7563.439,"end":7567.322,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":7584.974,"end":7586.335,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":7609.003,"end":7635.915,"text":"對,要不然這特定的犯罪只是說要提醒在法制面希望能夠審慎的處理是,那次長我最後一個問題只問為什麼特別拉出來未成年性侵就是因為他相對來講是有特殊性他相對來講是有我們剛剛所提到的有他不敢說出來不願意說出口或是難以去描述那個還原的一個狀況也因此才會特別針對這樣的一個部分"},{"start":7636.895,"end":7641.419,"text":"刑法第八十條之一條文刑法第八十條之一條文刑法第八十條之一條"},{"start":7664.716,"end":7681.896,"text":"不敢說出來的一個狀況所以我們才會特別拉出來所以本席希望我們在進入既然我們都有一個共識也認為說法務部沒有一定堅持相關的立場這一條不是說不能修那我們也希望是展現一個態度告訴我們中華民國"},{"start":7683.601,"end":7685.723,"text":"二）委員王育敏等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案"},{"start":7707.12,"end":7708.481,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7735.011,"end":7737.019,"text":"好那現在我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":7759.68,"end":7761.042,"text":"委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":7772.223,"end":7801.443,"text":"兩位好今天除了有關於追溯權時效的問題以外其實我相信兩位應該很清楚對於整個詐騙猖獗的狀況在我們目前刑法339條或者是更具體的講339條之四條文的法定刑我們已經規定到一年以上七年以下了"},{"start":7802.744,"end":7825.896,"text":"但大家真的在關心的是具體的實踐上到底發生什麼事情我請兩位看一下我在之前公聽會的時候我就很清楚的點出來台版柬埔寨的主賢藍道他是怎麼樣從小弟到首腦"},{"start":7827.717,"end":7851.905,"text":"三十一個加重詐欺罪分成兩個審判程序來先看一下A案的審判程序2020年5月到6月的時候犯案總共有12位被害人12個加重詐欺罪最後並執行刑出來只有10個月還給他一幅勞動"},{"start":7854.571,"end":7858.793,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7878.209,"end":7887.834,"text":"針對這樣子刑事司法在個案當中實踐出來的結果請教次長站在法務部的立場能不能夠接受"},{"start":7889.997,"end":7915.515,"text":"第一,我們還是尊重法院的判決第二,我們為了要打擊這些詐騙集團我們當然期待要良心上能夠符合我們被害人以及社會大眾的期待第一個,我們當然每一個人都尊重法院的判決但作為法律人"},{"start":7916.724,"end":7936.412,"text":"法院最後判決出來乃至於執行的結果都是我們刑事司法體系當中的一環。我說的沒有錯吧?在面對這個刑事司法體系實際運作的結果我剛剛的問題是請教法務部站在法務部的立場"},{"start":7937.472,"end":7966.337,"text":"我們國家要嚴肅的去追溯詐欺犯罪的這一件事情這樣的結果對法務部而言能不能夠接受我們還是尊重法院的判決了不過我們的立場還是希望能夠更具體現在有兩個層次嘛第一個我為什麼問你能不能夠接受如果這樣的結果"},{"start":7968.965,"end":7969.989,"text":"從社會大眾的期待"},{"start":7971.538,"end":7998.695,"text":"從刑事法律不管從應報的功能一般預防的功能特別預防的功能都沒有達到刑法所應該發揮的效果的時候這個時候就是我們應該去誠實的面對檢討為什麼出來判決的結果會變成這個樣子市長您讚不讚同這個我們讚同那現在如果你讚同的話請你仔細看齁"},{"start":7999.716,"end":8021.898,"text":"在這個案子裡面你覺得發生最嚴重的環節在什麼地方?應該是定執行刑現在定執行刑是每一個詐欺犯罪他每一罪的宣告"},{"start":8023.332,"end":8050.182,"text":"從一年到一年八個月最後總宣告刑是21年兩個月嘛 對不對在我們目前訴罪併罰的法規當中也就是我們要以每一個宣告刑最高的當作底線總宣告刑21年兩個月當作上限在這個空間當中給法官來裁量我的說明有沒有錯誤"},{"start":8052.312,"end":8070.699,"text":"法務委員沒有錯沒有錯吧作為一個立法者當我們看到給法官這麼大裁量權限的時候結果竟然他裁量出來的結果是定執行刑兩年這個會讓我們很嚴肅的必須要面對一個問題"},{"start":8074.264,"end":8082.628,"text":"我們針對訴罪併法的部分是不是給法官太多的裁量權有沒有必要修正請教一下次長這個"},{"start":8089.065,"end":8091.967,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案"},{"start":8109.921,"end":8126.294,"text":"檢察官可不可以具體酋刑可以可以嘛對那所以就不要講空的嘛是現在我在問的是針對訴罪併法這麼大的裁量權交給法官導致最後出來的結果是這個樣子從法務部的立場喔從法務部的立場"},{"start":8128.831,"end":8131.232,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具〈中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案〉案。"},{"start":8156.753,"end":8182.036,"text":"這位難道他還是小弟喔他只是這個犯罪組織其中的參與者喔他還沒有真正的成為什麼上面的領導人但我們接下來再往下看剛剛的那一個判決來請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長看一下2022年4月的時候全部判刑確定"},{"start":8183.649,"end":8208.997,"text":"犯罪時間在檢察官所追溯的犯罪事實是在2020年到2022年4月判刑確定判刑確定了以後一個緩刑不用關一個給他一服勞動結果他在一服勞動的時候去做了什麼事發生了台版的柬埔寨從2022年8月到2022年11月拘禁"},{"start":8213.001,"end":8223.805,"text":"提供帳戶的人、凌虐他們繼續進行詐騙。這個案件檢察官什麼時候收網的?市長你熟不熟?收網的時間我不清楚。收網的時間我跟市長講。這士林地檢署偵辦的。是。收網的時間是2022年11月。11月收網的時候"},{"start":8241.22,"end":8244.422,"text":"二）委員杜成哲等21人擬具、「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":8272.062,"end":8300.322,"text":"一年一天的勞動沒有做一天的勞動沒有做他在外面役服勞動的時候在台北山叢淡水拘禁提供人頭賬戶的人凌虐他們2022年11月檢警收網其他的人都被抓了這位杜先生還沒有被抓到來再繼續往下看2023年的3月"},{"start":8302.81,"end":8321.144,"text":"他繼續在台中做什麼他繼續在台中從事詐騙而且拘禁什麼人頭賬戶的提供者用手銬用腳鐐的方式來控制他們的行動自由繼續的從事詐騙我們的刑事體系我們的刑法體系"},{"start":8330.959,"end":8355.047,"text":"為什麼會讓整個社會大眾看到的是我們對於不僅僅是詐騙犯還是組織犯罪裡面的成員還用凌虐的方式去剝奪人的行動自由讓他們可以一而再再而三的犯案毫無畏懼毫無畏懼"},{"start":8359.246,"end":8388.518,"text":"這就是我們現在所在面臨的狀況我想要跟次長交換意見的事情是說法律人在修法的時候不是只有單純的在看那個法定型怎麼調你要看最後刑事司法實踐的結果到底是什麼以及最後這個刑事司法實踐的結果對於我們刑法所要達成的目的不管"},{"start":8389.485,"end":8390.826,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具〈中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8419.761,"end":8422.582,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":8443.348,"end":8470.473,"text":"我們尊重法官的判決我們只能努力了真的這樣真的太消極了啦如果到今天你站在這邊還是尊重法官的因為對於立法者來講我們要解決我們要處理的問題非常的critical現在一年以上七年以下搞出來是這個樣子嗎這樣的實踐的結果我老實跟次長報告社會大眾沒有辦法接受我也沒有辦法接受"},{"start":8472.957,"end":8477.939,"text":"二）立法委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":8502.574,"end":8506.676,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":8524.288,"end":8544.427,"text":"絕對不是在這邊說空話嗎?對,對,邦委員我想這個檢察官要努力法官這邊也應該有機會來做調整吧來我最後齁時間的關係這個案子我說齁到2022年收網的時候第一波被抓了嘛但他完全沒有在怕"},{"start":8545.526,"end":8571.886,"text":"沒有抓到他他在台中繼續幹結果私刑拘禁給人家上手銬給人家上腳鐐來看一下這個是法院最後判刑的結果杜成哲宣告刑7個月其他的6個月6個月4個月全部一顆罰金那等於是什麼我把提供人頭暢戶的人用手銬腳鐐關起來我所會付出的刑事處罰的代價是多少錢18萬到12萬"},{"start":8576.161,"end":8596.637,"text":"市長這樣的結果你可以接受嗎我們尊重法官的判決我們當然尊重法官的判決嘛我的意思是從法務部執掌法務部我們在訴追不法犯罪的時候這樣的結果你認為妥適嗎我們會繼續努力"},{"start":8600.811,"end":8613.016,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具、「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具、「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具、「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具、「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具、「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具、「中華民國刑"},{"start":8630.814,"end":8633.278,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":8644.488,"end":8672.622,"text":"詐欺金額超過兩千兩百萬三十二個加重詐欺罪又多了三十二個被害人每一個宣告刑一年四個月到一年一個月宣告刑合計四十七年九個月這個還沒有定執行刑但我有一點沒有辦法想像這個定執行刑以後定出來會多少因為按照我們目前給法官的裁量權法官只要判定的執行刑"},{"start":8674.198,"end":8691.666,"text":"只要在一年十一個月以上就合法了嗎我說的對不對是會不會發生跟之前把他養大的那個案子一樣要定兩年的執行刑雖然他總宣告刑加起來已經47年了面對這樣的狀況我們當然都尊重"},{"start":8697.737,"end":8724.338,"text":"司法個案的判決。但問題是當給法官這麼大的裁量權最後裁量出來的結果從刑罰的目的從最後要抑制詐騙犯罪全部都沒有辦法達成效果的話我們是不是應該要深切的檢討反省我們接下來該怎麼辦市長贊不贊成我贊成司法院"},{"start":8725.325,"end":8742.117,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21"},{"start":8746.803,"end":8762.458,"text":"台灣社會關心詐騙痛恨詐騙的人將法務部也好司法院也好要如何努力好謝謝謝謝黃委員接下來我們請謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳、謝一鳳楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英、楊瓊英下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":8771.698,"end":8775.806,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":8896.059,"end":8902.403,"text":"我跟你說因為我知道你們在想什麼那我覺得要我們就依照會議的順序來其實我是真的給他我真的反而我想說他因為我發現他在做檔案我真的剛剛在修好"},{"start":8910.028,"end":8914.01,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":8926.917,"end":8952.588,"text":"不是,那可以麻煩你們現在就...就...不是,因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛。對不對。不不不,不要,我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了齁。那不然你跟吳思堯對調,你現在跟他聯絡一下,你跟吳思堯對調。你現在跟他對調,對對對。不是,因為我跟你講,我都怎麼會不知道大家在心裡在想什麼。"},{"start":8953.752,"end":8959.474,"text":"我我我這個人我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦我比較喜歡大家就直球對決該怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":8994.947,"end":9000.27,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":9002.152,"end":9008.399,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":9021.793,"end":9024.954,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":9041.547,"end":9042.049,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9123.398,"end":9151.2,"text":"綜委員你現在要開始了不然我開始計時了真的綜委員你自己準備錯檔案的話這個不能不是我跟你講這已經差不多而且我跟你說我真的知道你們在想什麼啦我真的知道你們在想什麼所以可不可以麻煩你開始好不好那你們每次都玩這一套好啦那那個好謝謝好謝謝那接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":9153.752,"end":9156.494,"text":"法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律"},{"start":9165,"end":9191.114,"text":"市長好,很遺憾,因為當然我的疏失,所以我代出了檔案,所以現在泡泡你沒辦法呈現。待會他準備好了,我馬上來。首先原請請教一下,今天的詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題,是不是這樣?是。所以我們把它加重,從一年以上七年以下加重為三年以上十年以下,是不是這樣?是。那你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎?"},{"start":9192.256,"end":9211.053,"text":"法務委員因為有些如果是就加重這個應該是符合人民的期待但是我要跟你說的說其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候他們希望的不是關得久而是希望抓得到是不是這樣子所以我們希望未來我們的檢警調的"},{"start":9212.912,"end":9224.601,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文"},{"start":9237.895,"end":9241.216,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":9255.936,"end":9257.837,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法"},{"start":9284.431,"end":9310.467,"text":"刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第四條之一條文刑法第"},{"start":9313.108,"end":9317.09,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":9327.642,"end":9356.061,"text":"法務委員照法律上來講非告訴哪論之罪當然檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑要主動偵辦所謂的犯罪嫌疑那是必須要集合很多的證據比如說光是這一個虛偽這個虛偽的部分檢察官不是當事人他不曉得當事人講的內容是不是真實那很多是不是構成犯罪嫌疑那還要再進一步去調取相關的資料"},{"start":9356.901,"end":9359.224,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":9368.362,"end":9395.891,"text":"我們未來民國眾兩黨他們說欸你看到內容喔公務員於立法院聽證或受諮詢時就其所知之重要關係事項請問我們在立法院的諮詢我們會諮詢不重要的嗎我們會諮詢沒有關係的嗎你覺得這裡面所設計的一個條件限制就其所知第一個就其所知他要知道第二個要有重要第三要有關係你認為就這樣的條文規定你有辦法看"},{"start":9396.854,"end":9399.716,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":9419.073,"end":9419.714,"text":"三條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9436.016,"end":9460.238,"text":"所以我是覺得我們明顯看到目前此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的就是由我們目前的主席昭偉在委員會裡面不經討論不經審查就直接送到院會去還送過了修正動議再修正動議現在所僅存的一是一條之一他裡面對於所謂的刑法上的一些要件我們都沒有辦法明確判斷往下看"},{"start":9461.089,"end":9464.378,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條條文刑法第八十三條條"},{"start":9470.015,"end":9499.142,"text":"那是應該是國家是國家法律那立法院可不可以主張我自己的質詢權我質詢你我發現你藐視國會犯了刑法第11之1那我要求提起告訴可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎應該是告發可以可以告發任何人只要違反罪那個所以質詢的國會議員可以告發看影片的民眾可以告發看新聞的觀眾可以告發是這樣的意思嗎是的你確定齁好我想就很清楚了嘛好我們現在看"},{"start":9499.929,"end":9502.191,"text":"二）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":9523.652,"end":9539.166,"text":"只要去按鈴聲告發我們一定會分案處理。今天社會大眾因應其判的是集中我們減掉的力量透過我們修法加重詐欺的行則後你們去幫人民去除這個大害"},{"start":9540.547,"end":9560.37,"text":"結果如果今天因為政治上的立場不同意見不同多元言論我只要看立法院的質詢我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的官員的質詢有問題我就去按鈴告發你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官員檢察官的疲於奔命"},{"start":9563.033,"end":9565.094,"text":"條文宗理告發依法偵辦,這是我們的義務。」"},{"start":9573.53,"end":9592.123,"text":"目前藐視國會罪有幾個版本,有翁曉蓮的版本處罰對象是官員,如果是一事一條之一跟之二是復刑的版本,它的處罰對象是官員加人民,如果是目前國重的在刑事中心是官員,行為的樣態包括了翁版包括其他藐視國會的行為,在復刑版包括了反質詢,"},{"start":9593.064,"end":9622.098,"text":"到了國眾版的再修正動議僅剩聽證跟質詢則虛偽陳述行者從三年降到現在主席說的一年其實沒有很輕的行為你覺得這是不是一個處罰對象跟行為的限縮就這樣的一個嚴格來講從翁版、副版到再修正版是不是一個限縮這個裡面的內容不是我只是說從官員處罰對象有沒有限縮了行者有沒有行為上有沒有限縮了"},{"start":9623.882,"end":9625.803,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":9646.292,"end":9672.427,"text":"所以說我們目前看到的中華民國刑法第五章五至一章五章之一一是一之條之一一是一之條之二的在修正動議呢所謂的說所以就其所知之重要關係事項為序位之陳述重要關係事項就是影響諮詢的結論那有沒有不重要的剛我所詢問你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎沒有沒有好所以我們就看清楚今天我藉這個機會因為"},{"start":9674.691,"end":9696.657,"text":"國民黨主控的司法法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見不同的討論所以我們被迫要用這個質詢的方式來就明天即將做二讀審議已經說回到因為民眾抗議說回到只剩一是一條之一的再修正動議的內容我們來給大家看一個訴求所以我們希望未來"},{"start":9697.517,"end":9712.285,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治委員會及法治"},{"start":9717.791,"end":9720.333,"text":"中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":9735.549,"end":9761.176,"text":"一條文刑法第八十三條文修正草案案 案。另外對於我覺得大家都是國會議員那對於記者的下標叫做一年關叫做不中這句話我認為如果說中委員有對這句話有興趣的話那要批評本席那應該先去聽一下當時記者會的完整發言而不是看記者下標因為我覺得現在媒體有時候下標跟事實差距都蠻大"},{"start":9762.236,"end":9767.801,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":9788.933,"end":9792.934,"text":"其實也借一點點時間因為剛剛有聆聽到主席的補充意見本席也是司法法制的委員在審查所謂的立法院職權行使法目前確實只有藍白的版本被直接交付可以在院會表決現在有超過十多萬的公民朋友站上街頭他們反對的就是這樣一個擴權的黑箱的沒有程序正義的法案"},{"start":9817.739,"end":9824.426,"text":"而事上我以司法法制委員會的參與者見證人。我想眾嘉賓委員所說是事實沒有錯誤。在我們這一個會場所討論的國民黨版民眾黨版的立法院職權行使法確實在吳宗炫委員的主持之下呢"},{"start":9836.738,"end":9839.879,"text":"是企圖直接將條文保留沒有經過實質條文的審查。這就是民主進步黨在場一直強調要求實質進入每一個條文的討論這樣才是民主的審議也因此民進黨為了阻撓這種包裹"},{"start":9857.205,"end":9868.098,"text":"要直接打包交付協商的這種濫權跟暴力行為,多數暴力的行為,我們才不得已的提出高達40餘次的修繪動議、散繪動議。這是一個事實我也以一個見證人在此清楚的再一次的說明。"},{"start":9877.448,"end":9882.071,"text":"確實在吳宗憲昭偉的主持下企圖要打包快速協商沒有任何一個條文進入實質的討論甚至在昭偉主持的黨團協商上68個條文只進行了4個條文那因為在野黨的黨鞭離席因此主席也宣告了那就全案包裹交付朝野協商我在此用了4分鐘的時間因為事實不容抹滅"},{"start":9904.545,"end":9932.511,"text":"事實不容扭曲,真相就是如此。」我再一次做補充。好,徐司長好。您的經歷非常的有趣。我覺得這是非常豐富的職場訓練。您過去擔任國小教師嗎?是。那您認為在您國小教師的整個教育的歷程上,到您後來來擔任檢查體系,現在服務於我們的公職。教育對於我們所有的正向意義在哪裡?"},{"start":9933.783,"end":9955.809,"text":"我想任何一個制度或者是任何一個重要的一個決策從小訓練我們的新一代是最有希望的作為因為從小培養好守法的觀念法治觀念長大以後這些都是我們國家的棟樑那您認為人性本善或是人性本惡就您的教育理念"},{"start":9957.386,"end":9984.306,"text":"人性沒有辦法用三的直接劃定。」很好這是一個好的回答我也認為每一個人有不同的養成有不同的社會所給予的能量但是教育就是一個非常重要的媒介那我今天要破題的就是我曾經跟蔡欣祥部長所質詢過的那因為是新任的部長、次長我有機會再一次來表達我的關切就是吳思堯本席我"},{"start":9985.006,"end":9987.328,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":10012.208,"end":10041.227,"text":"我想我一直在倡議包括剛剛質詢的中嘉賓昭偉我們兩個一直在推動監獄友善犬貓因為矯正教化獸型人犬貓can help協助復歸社會生活在跟犬貓的共同生活以及訓練相關職能上也是有很正向的幫助當然能夠喚醒改悔向上的意念這都是在各國的案例包括台灣的案例我們觀察到的正面結果下一頁"},{"start":10041.988,"end":10044.429,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":10067.52,"end":10070.522,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文修正草案．一．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":10092.377,"end":10121.036,"text":"當然美國的這個四爪監獄計畫我也再次提供給您大家可以持續再去做研究好下一頁台灣也有這樣的計畫喔好下一頁在我們桃園的太原監獄曾經呢由獸行人來照顧在太原監獄四周的流浪貓那藉由照顧流浪貓收留流浪貓到最後全數的送養成功而很多是跟著獸行人回家的"},{"start":10121.596,"end":10122.797,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":10151.73,"end":10155.593,"text":"所以上一次我跟鍾嘉斌委員非常的湊巧我們在同一天都拋出同樣的質詢很快的我們法務部呢就直接跟嘉斌委員的選區評科大開始攜手合作了監獄關懷犬的訓練課程那矯正署也一起來納入了很多可以來做的雙方應當是簽了一個MOU"},{"start":10178.749,"end":10184.973,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三"},{"start":10208.484,"end":10216.982,"text":"我剛接業務那這個部分我個人我是當然樂觀其成但是部裡面目前的規劃可能"},{"start":10219.472,"end":10221.494,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文草案》案。"},{"start":10239.386,"end":10247.471,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文修正草案．一）委員王育敏等21人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三條文"},{"start":10267.924,"end":10269.486,"text":"二）委員王育敏等21人擬具 «中華民國刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條"},{"start":10286.101,"end":10287.542,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八"},{"start":10312.483,"end":10315.425,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":10340.76,"end":10341.541,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":10362.972,"end":10389.812,"text":"是我們會仔細的評估好那我們後續因為今天不好意思剛剛前面我佔用了四五分鐘在回應其他的issue我跟鍾嘉斌委員會持續推動這個正向能量的監獄關懷犬貓的計劃我們一起一起來做好嗎好是謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員好謝謝次長那下一位我們請林月琴委員林月琴委員林月琴委員好"},{"start":10390.592,"end":10397.514,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":10415.879,"end":10436.096,"text":"有關兩位委員指教主席不經討論不經審查的部分我想相關的相關的會議過程都有直播上網那至於說法怎麼樣我覺得我就尊重各位委員的說法但是我也比較希望說各位委員我們在進行"},{"start":10436.857,"end":10440.278,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條"},{"start":10466.388,"end":10482.413,"text":"回憲亂證 都在講這些跟條文沒有關係的事情。我也在這邊呼籲說各個委員如果我們在審查法條的時候我們都有開放時間讓大家做程序發言大體討論那是否我們在討論的時候應該是聚焦在法條的內容"},{"start":10484.453,"end":10502.556,"text":"這個才是叫做討論而不是每一次每位委員發言都是在講毀憲亂政什麼出賣台灣反民主黑箱都在講這些虛無縹緲的東西我很在意的是是不是就條文的內容去討論所以當有人說受詢問人到場"},{"start":10503.757,"end":10504.678,"text":"三條條文修正草案案案件 。"},{"start":10521.889,"end":10533.311,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項目,並非在講那些虛無縹緲的互民主抗中保台什麼這些這些話因為這個跟條文的審查無關然後不能說因為你給你發言的時候你都在講這些後來又回過頭來說為什麼不給我時間討論這個我沒有辦法理解這個的出發點邏輯到底是什麼"},{"start":10550.955,"end":10566.7,"text":"法律審查法條,應該就是就法律法條去審查。那至於是不是違憲是不是毀憲亂證,那你要告訴我是違哪一條憲法。但我到目前為止千拜託萬拜託大家提出來告訴我違憲亂證是毀哪一條憲,我到現在還是聽不到。"},{"start":10569.241,"end":10571.942,"text":"刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"},{"start":10598.929,"end":10601.872,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":10616.455,"end":10639.987,"text":"覆昆旗委員跟楊瓊瑛委員所提的書面質詢都列入紀錄、刊登公報並且相關機關以書面答覆。本次會議進行到此,議程討論四項所列議案,定期繼續審查。大家辛苦了,吳孝偉辛苦了,各位在場官員辛苦了,謝謝大家,現在散會。"},{"start":10646.425,"end":10646.762,"text":"條文刑法第八十三條之一條文"}]}},{"id":"15953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15953","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d4197e6bbfb965dc79e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be49725de4cbfec4d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-27","start_time":"2024-05-27T08:30:31+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:55:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":19469,"委員發言時間":"08:30:31 - 13:55:00","影片長度":"05:24:29","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":150.31971875000002,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":151.97346875000002,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":152.86784375000002,"end":153.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":154.99409375000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":155.06159375000001,"end":155.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":189.41909375,"end":189.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.10721875000002,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.58346875,"end":248.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":248.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.33784375000002,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":250.38846875000002,"end":251.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":252.83534375000002,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":256.00784375,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":256.04159375,"end":256.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.41034375000004,"end":407.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":407.44409375000004,"end":407.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.29096875000005,"end":416.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.10659375,"end":461.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":724.9640937500001,"end":725.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":725.45346875,"end":727.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":761.65034375,"end":764.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.2609687500001,"end":772.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":847.98284375,"end":858.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":849.4509687500001,"end":851.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":851.9484687500001,"end":851.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":855.9309687500001,"end":856.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":858.9853437500001,"end":860.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":860.9934687500001,"end":863.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.15784375,"end":863.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":863.0859687500001,"end":864.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":876.77159375,"end":879.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.03284375,"end":880.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":880.88909375,"end":882.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":881.00721875,"end":882.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":882.0365937500001,"end":886.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.99846875,"end":883.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":883.09971875,"end":883.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1211.9765937500001,"end":1212.3140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1253.4722187500001,"end":1254.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1448.5809687500002,"end":1448.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1448.6822187500002,"end":1451.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1636.9734687500002,"end":1637.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1637.9690937500002,"end":1638.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1639.3865937500002,"end":1640.6353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1641.9515937500003,"end":1642.3565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1643.3690937500003,"end":1644.0609687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1652.1440937500001,"end":1653.5953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1658.86034375,"end":1659.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1661.1384687500001,"end":1681.9790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1682.8228437500002,"end":1683.6665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1692.1209687500002,"end":1692.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1693.2009687500001,"end":1694.0784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1776.9009687500002,"end":1788.4434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1788.8990937500002,"end":1813.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1813.53659375,"end":1823.1722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1823.39159375,"end":1827.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1827.4078437500002,"end":1827.4415937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1827.45846875,"end":1831.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1831.3059687500001,"end":1831.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1831.55909375,"end":1901.6578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1902.6703437500003,"end":1906.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1907.9690937500002,"end":1923.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1925.0297187500003,"end":1926.4134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1928.15159375,"end":1934.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1936.3359687500001,"end":1939.6265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1941.5840937500002,"end":1943.8622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1943.8622187500002,"end":1944.4359687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1944.6890937500002,"end":1944.7059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1944.7397187500003,"end":1947.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1948.82346875,"end":1951.4897187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1952.1815937500003,"end":1959.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1971.19971875,"end":1971.8240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1972.7690937500001,"end":1974.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1974.6084687500002,"end":1975.2159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1976.3803437500003,"end":1980.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1980.3797187500002,"end":1984.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1984.8178437500003,"end":1985.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1986.2184687500003,"end":1988.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1989.6609687500002,"end":1991.9222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1992.14159375,"end":1995.1790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1995.9722187500001,"end":1999.5497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2000.1403437500003,"end":2003.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2004.94971875,"end":2012.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2012.7459687500002,"end":2014.8553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2015.07471875,"end":2016.0365937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2016.7284687500003,"end":2017.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2017.9772187500002,"end":2018.9728437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2019.3272187500002,"end":2020.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2020.4578437500002,"end":2031.3422187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2031.4940937500003,"end":2032.8778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2033.1984687500003,"end":2039.6278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2040.2690937500001,"end":2040.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2041.1128437500001,"end":2044.5890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2044.7747187500001,"end":2047.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2047.9978437500001,"end":2052.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2053.27971875,"end":2054.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2054.9334687500004,"end":2056.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2056.63784375,"end":2075.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2075.63909375,"end":2078.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2078.87909375,"end":2080.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2081.2247187500006,"end":2083.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2084.14409375,"end":2085.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2085.6122187500005,"end":2086.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2087.02971875,"end":2099.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2099.80409375,"end":2100.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2101.44096875,"end":2105.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2106.2165937500004,"end":2110.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2110.6884687500005,"end":2112.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2113.30409375,"end":2125.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2127.58034375,"end":2136.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2137.09784375,"end":2139.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2139.20721875,"end":2139.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2139.27471875,"end":2144.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2144.6240937500006,"end":2145.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2145.8728437500004,"end":2152.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2152.96034375,"end":2174.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2175.06659375,"end":2176.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2176.9734687500004,"end":2179.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2179.72409375,"end":2183.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2184.1959687500002,"end":2186.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2187.0478437500005,"end":2191.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2192.0934687500003,"end":2194.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2195.08034375,"end":2211.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2211.60096875,"end":2216.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2217.79409375,"end":2220.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2221.13534375,"end":2250.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2251.2740937500002,"end":2273.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2273.86971875,"end":2277.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2278.4597187500003,"end":2279.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2280.1472187500003,"end":2292.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2292.78659375,"end":2293.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2293.93409375,"end":2296.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2296.21221875,"end":2304.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2305.81409375,"end":2312.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2312.59784375,"end":2313.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2313.74534375,"end":2321.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2322.0984687500004,"end":2326.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2327.6503437500005,"end":2329.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2329.9284687500003,"end":2330.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2331.22784375,"end":2334.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2335.58159375,"end":2340.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2341.36971875,"end":2342.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2343.2090937500006,"end":2345.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2347.86659375,"end":2350.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2350.53284375,"end":2351.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2351.6803437500002,"end":2352.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2353.4353437500004,"end":2365.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2366.4628437500005,"end":2374.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2375.64284375,"end":2379.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2379.9122187500006,"end":2380.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2381.5828437500004,"end":2386.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2387.28659375,"end":2391.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2391.92721875,"end":2395.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2395.9940937500005,"end":2397.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2398.1540937500004,"end":2400.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2400.4997187500003,"end":2401.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2402.40659375,"end":2405.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2405.61284375,"end":2416.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2416.5984687500004,"end":2419.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2420.56409375,"end":2422.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2422.89284375,"end":2436.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2436.52784375,"end":2438.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2439.48096875,"end":2445.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2446.3153437500005,"end":2448.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2449.3359687500006,"end":2456.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2457.0984687500004,"end":2458.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2458.8028437500006,"end":2461.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2462.6503437500005,"end":2464.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2465.6540937500004,"end":2466.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2467.18971875,"end":2472.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2472.9609687500006,"end":2473.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2474.05784375,"end":2489.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2489.9540937500005,"end":2490.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2491.3209687500002,"end":2495.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2496.60284375,"end":2498.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2498.66159375,"end":2506.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2506.79534375,"end":2508.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2509.2928437500004,"end":2509.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2509.93409375,"end":2511.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2511.9422187500004,"end":2514.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2514.7097187500003,"end":2515.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2515.65471875,"end":2524.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2525.34096875,"end":2528.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2528.8340937500006,"end":2531.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2531.85471875,"end":2532.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2533.74471875,"end":2537.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2538.31784375,"end":2541.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2541.9628437500005,"end":2563.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2564.0184687500005,"end":2570.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2571.27471875,"end":2576.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2576.9109687500004,"end":2583.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2583.74534375,"end":2587.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2587.6434687500005,"end":2593.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2594.30909375,"end":2596.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2597.4647187500004,"end":2619.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2619.7734687500006,"end":2620.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2620.7184687500003,"end":2623.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2624.49846875,"end":2629.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2630.3709687500004,"end":2630.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2630.69159375,"end":2631.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2633.64471875,"end":2669.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2676.0684687500006,"end":2678.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2678.24534375,"end":2678.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2678.26221875,"end":2678.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2678.7178437500006,"end":2679.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2691.81284375,"end":2692.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2694.6647187500002,"end":2695.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2695.1540937500004,"end":2696.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2696.6728437500005,"end":2697.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2698.1240937500006,"end":2725.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2725.9678437500006,"end":2729.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2731.40159375,"end":2732.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2732.9034687500007,"end":2746.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2745.32346875,"end":2745.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2746.6397187500006,"end":2766.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2766.2315937500007,"end":2771.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2771.7159687500007,"end":2837.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2837.2247187500006,"end":2849.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2849.3915937500005,"end":2851.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2852.00721875,"end":2871.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2869.67534375,"end":2978.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2978.56971875,"end":2979.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":2979.12659375,"end":2979.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":2979.5147187500006,"end":2980.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2980.0547187500006,"end":2980.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":2980.07159375,"end":2980.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":2980.20659375,"end":2980.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2980.2740937500002,"end":2991.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2993.3522187500002,"end":2993.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2994.83721875,"end":3007.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3008.23596875,"end":3009.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3008.9109687500004,"end":3034.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3034.1728437500005,"end":3053.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3053.78159375,"end":3103.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3053.84909375,"end":3053.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3104.1872187500003,"end":3104.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3104.5584687500004,"end":3152.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3154.30596875,"end":3164.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3165.4265937500004,"end":3171.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3171.3834687500002,"end":3225.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3226.09221875,"end":3229.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3229.7372187500005,"end":3243.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3243.03471875,"end":3297.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3298.46909375,"end":3322.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3308.5097187500005,"end":3310.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3321.7228437500007,"end":3351.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3323.05596875,"end":3323.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3352.7897187500002,"end":3360.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3360.73784375,"end":3366.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3366.81284375,"end":3438.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3438.48096875,"end":3438.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3438.97034375,"end":3439.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3439.25721875,"end":3440.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3441.18096875,"end":3446.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3446.2772187500004,"end":3449.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3454.79909375,"end":3463.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3463.5065937500003,"end":3466.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3471.5390937500006,"end":3472.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3472.6190937500005,"end":3485.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3485.37659375,"end":3487.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3488.1778437500006,"end":3488.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3490.00034375,"end":3490.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3490.7090937500006,"end":3491.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3492.22784375,"end":3495.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3495.67034375,"end":3503.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3504.47909375,"end":3511.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3512.5790937500005,"end":3531.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3532.9303437500002,"end":3534.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3535.20846875,"end":3546.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3547.13909375,"end":3587.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3587.2003437500007,"end":3593.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3593.4609687500006,"end":3611.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3605.9990937500006,"end":3606.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3611.87159375,"end":3656.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3656.1178437500002,"end":3736.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3656.15159375,"end":3656.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3738.1134687500007,"end":3799.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3799.65659375,"end":3820.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3819.6534687500007,"end":3944.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3944.4440937500003,"end":4035.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4036.8009687500007,"end":4043.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4042.8590937500003,"end":4043.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4043.1628437500003,"end":4045.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4045.0528437500006,"end":4090.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4090.75034375,"end":4107.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4107.94596875,"end":4150.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4151.12909375,"end":4167.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4166.940968749999,"end":4199.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4200.032843749999,"end":4203.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4203.71159375,"end":4204.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4204.50471875,"end":4204.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4204.639718750001,"end":4204.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4205.63534375,"end":4219.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4219.776593750001,"end":4273.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4273.18596875,"end":4336.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4286.095343749999,"end":4286.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4336.264718750001,"end":4354.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4350.54096875,"end":4350.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4350.557843750001,"end":4353.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4353.038468750001,"end":4353.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4354.169093750001,"end":4354.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4354.202843749999,"end":4354.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4354.70909375,"end":4355.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4356.81846875,"end":4359.315968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4364.952218750001,"end":4366.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4366.8084687499995,"end":4367.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4374.52034375,"end":4375.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4375.60034375,"end":4376.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4376.62971875,"end":4397.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4398.11159375,"end":4412.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4412.55659375,"end":4414.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4416.640343749999,"end":4437.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4438.577843749999,"end":4440.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4440.34971875,"end":4440.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4441.42971875,"end":4441.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.682843750001,"end":4441.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4441.69971875,"end":4441.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.767218749999,"end":4441.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4441.7840937500005,"end":4441.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.80096875,"end":4441.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4441.85159375,"end":4442.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4444.0115937499995,"end":4444.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4446.89721875,"end":4451.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4452.0947187500005,"end":4459.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4459.23284375,"end":4462.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4462.79346875,"end":4472.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4472.6990937499995,"end":4472.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4472.86784375,"end":4472.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4472.91846875,"end":4472.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4472.952218750001,"end":4472.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4472.96909375,"end":4474.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4474.74096875,"end":4474.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4475.07846875,"end":4475.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4475.095343749999,"end":4509.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4510.19534375,"end":4526.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4526.479718750001,"end":4527.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4527.9647187499995,"end":4529.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4529.905343750001,"end":4533.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4534.00596875,"end":4544.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4544.92409375,"end":4547.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4550.02034375,"end":4551.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4551.67409375,"end":4551.690968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4552.062218749999,"end":4552.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4553.02409375,"end":4555.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4556.87159375,"end":4558.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4558.964093750001,"end":4562.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4563.75659375,"end":4570.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4571.012843750001,"end":4580.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4581.30659375,"end":4591.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4591.954718749999,"end":4591.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4592.46096875,"end":4592.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4593.405968749999,"end":4593.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4593.43971875,"end":4593.456593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4593.456593749999,"end":4593.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4593.47346875,"end":4594.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4593.642218749999,"end":4602.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4602.974093750001,"end":4613.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4607.513468749999,"end":4607.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4614.14534375,"end":4619.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4619.5790937500005,"end":4656.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4656.974093750001,"end":4668.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4668.702218750001,"end":4674.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4674.28784375,"end":4674.456593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4674.456593749999,"end":4674.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4674.96284375,"end":4675.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4676.26221875,"end":4678.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4679.012843750001,"end":4682.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4682.522843750001,"end":4688.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4689.087218750001,"end":4689.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4689.779093749999,"end":4689.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4690.47096875,"end":4702.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4702.60409375,"end":4702.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4702.722218750001,"end":4702.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4702.75596875,"end":4702.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4702.857218749999,"end":4702.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4702.89096875,"end":4703.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4702.907843749999,"end":4709.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4710.16409375,"end":4738.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4737.58596875,"end":4737.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4738.27784375,"end":4745.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4745.97284375,"end":4749.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4748.048468749999,"end":4748.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4750.1747187500005,"end":4769.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4764.95721875,"end":4765.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4769.96909375,"end":4772.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4773.327218750001,"end":4784.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4784.481593750001,"end":4788.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4789.32471875,"end":4790.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4791.43409375,"end":4792.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4793.189093749999,"end":4795.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4796.327843749999,"end":4796.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4797.72846875,"end":4810.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4810.401593750001,"end":4814.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4814.7215937500005,"end":4822.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4821.99471875,"end":4822.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4822.163468750001,"end":4828.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4829.436593750001,"end":4833.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4834.60034375,"end":4834.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4834.61721875,"end":4834.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4834.634093750001,"end":4834.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4834.9715937500005,"end":4835.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4835.03909375,"end":4835.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4835.20784375,"end":4836.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4836.38909375,"end":4836.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4837.84034375,"end":4846.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4847.526593750001,"end":4850.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4850.59784375,"end":4863.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4863.794093750001,"end":4868.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4869.43034375,"end":4874.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4875.5897187499995,"end":4875.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4875.606593750001,"end":4880.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4880.567843750001,"end":4880.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4882.491593750001,"end":4883.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4884.280343750001,"end":4890.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4890.034718750001,"end":4898.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4890.186593750001,"end":4890.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4898.77596875,"end":4899.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4899.0965937500005,"end":4922.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4922.991593750001,"end":4925.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4926.265343749999,"end":4931.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4932.407843749999,"end":4937.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4938.85409375,"end":4938.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4938.887843750001,"end":4939.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4939.157843749999,"end":4939.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4939.24221875,"end":4939.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4939.27596875,"end":4940.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4940.946593750001,"end":4941.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4941.554093750001,"end":4941.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4942.077218750001,"end":4942.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4942.9715937500005,"end":4955.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4955.03721875,"end":4955.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4955.560343749999,"end":4955.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4955.7459687499995,"end":4955.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4955.796593749999,"end":4955.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4955.8134687500005,"end":4955.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4955.847218750001,"end":4955.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4957.062218749999,"end":4968.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4968.67221875,"end":4968.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4969.161593750001,"end":4969.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4970.30909375,"end":4970.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4970.35971875,"end":4970.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4970.376593749999,"end":4970.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4970.41034375,"end":4970.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4970.46096875,"end":4972.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4970.62971875,"end":4970.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4972.78971875,"end":4973.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4974.224093750001,"end":4981.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4982.712218750001,"end":4994.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4994.82846875,"end":4998.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5000.26221875,"end":5002.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5002.2197187500005,"end":5010.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5010.62346875,"end":5012.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5011.0790937500005,"end":5011.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5012.715968750001,"end":5013.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5013.829718749999,"end":5023.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5023.819718750001,"end":5027.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5027.751593749999,"end":5046.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5047.950968749999,"end":5049.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5049.95909375,"end":5058.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5059.679093750001,"end":5066.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5066.83409375,"end":5069.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5070.276593750001,"end":5078.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5079.72659375,"end":5101.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5101.90034375,"end":5107.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5107.5028437500005,"end":5107.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5108.144093750001,"end":5113.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5114.4384687500005,"end":5118.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5118.977843750001,"end":5127.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5127.11159375,"end":5127.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5127.128468750001,"end":5134.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5135.16096875,"end":5140.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5140.03784375,"end":5147.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5140.32471875,"end":5140.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5147.091593749999,"end":5153.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5154.76971875,"end":5160.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5162.44784375,"end":5171.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5171.96534375,"end":5203.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5203.825343750001,"end":5204.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5204.02784375,"end":5204.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5205.19221875,"end":5211.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5211.925343750001,"end":5212.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5212.60034375,"end":5212.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5212.904093749999,"end":5213.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5213.950343750001,"end":5214.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5214.591593749999,"end":5214.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5214.91221875,"end":5216.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5216.515343749999,"end":5217.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5217.089093750001,"end":5217.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5217.44346875,"end":5217.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5217.460343750001,"end":5224.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5224.7840937500005,"end":5225.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5225.6278437500005,"end":5226.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5236.579718749999,"end":5237.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5237.4403437500005,"end":5238.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5238.874718749999,"end":5240.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5245.27034375,"end":5246.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5246.468468749999,"end":5247.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5249.72534375,"end":5250.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5250.974093750001,"end":5251.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5254.399718750001,"end":5255.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5254.669718749999,"end":5254.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5254.70346875,"end":5254.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5255.749718749999,"end":5297.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5256.05346875,"end":5256.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5256.34034375,"end":5256.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5297.802218750001,"end":5302.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5304.2822187500005,"end":5309.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5310.1209687499995,"end":5316.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5316.972218750001,"end":5330.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5329.93221875,"end":5348.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5349.33846875,"end":5391.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5393.854718750001,"end":5400.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5399.8622187500005,"end":5415.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5410.88159375,"end":5410.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5416.0115937499995,"end":5417.142218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5417.1590937500005,"end":5448.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5449.94721875,"end":5473.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5472.05346875,"end":5473.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5473.639718750001,"end":5487.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5473.70721875,"end":5474.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5488.202843749999,"end":5492.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5491.1728437500005,"end":5494.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5493.366593750001,"end":5540.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5541.173468749999,"end":5554.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5554.015343749999,"end":5555.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5555.68596875,"end":5555.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5555.78721875,"end":5602.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5603.07096875,"end":5624.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5624.36721875,"end":5712.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5713.4334687499995,"end":5715.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5717.26409375,"end":5718.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5719.778468750001,"end":5754.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5755.36784375,"end":5767.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5767.450343750001,"end":5870.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5870.708468750001,"end":5877.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5877.66096875,"end":5878.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5878.92659375,"end":5885.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5885.0184687500005,"end":5889.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5887.65096875,"end":5890.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5890.18221875,"end":5910.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5910.651593750001,"end":5919.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5919.983468750001,"end":5946.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5947.9959687499995,"end":5953.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5953.66596875,"end":5960.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5959.94346875,"end":5993.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5994.43596875,"end":5999.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5999.279093749999,"end":6000.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6017.40284375,"end":6020.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6027.831593750001,"end":6030.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6031.206593750001,"end":6031.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6031.98284375,"end":6032.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6039.05346875,"end":6039.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6039.087218750001,"end":6039.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6039.34034375,"end":6048.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6049.060343749999,"end":6065.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6065.935343749999,"end":6076.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6076.583468750001,"end":6086.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6086.97846875,"end":6179.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6180.01034375,"end":6197.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6198.38721875,"end":6199.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6200.985968750001,"end":6211.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6212.17409375,"end":6216.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6216.44346875,"end":6217.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6217.65846875,"end":6248.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6250.98659375,"end":6260.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6260.40284375,"end":6269.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6269.700968749999,"end":6276.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6276.53534375,"end":6281.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6282.323468750001,"end":6282.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6283.403468750001,"end":6293.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6294.169718749999,"end":6297.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6297.94971875,"end":6302.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6302.4384687500005,"end":6304.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6304.0584687499995,"end":6304.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6306.420968750001,"end":6311.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6312.63096875,"end":6313.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6314.2509687500005,"end":6318.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6319.7353437500005,"end":6320.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6321.38909375,"end":6328.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6329.4384687500005,"end":6333.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6334.5009687500005,"end":6334.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6335.715968750001,"end":6337.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6337.18409375,"end":6340.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6340.727843750001,"end":6371.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6372.233468750001,"end":6378.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6378.42659375,"end":6389.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6390.47534375,"end":6396.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6396.71909375,"end":6398.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6399.081593750001,"end":6399.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6400.41471875,"end":6408.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6409.206593750001,"end":6414.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6414.99471875,"end":6427.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6428.292218750001,"end":6448.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6449.36909375,"end":6450.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6450.972218750001,"end":6460.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6461.384093750001,"end":6464.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6465.01221875,"end":6492.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6492.889718750001,"end":6496.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6496.60221875,"end":6503.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6504.06096875,"end":6504.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6504.972218750001,"end":6508.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6508.7353437500005,"end":6509.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6511.0809687500005,"end":6513.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6513.57846875,"end":6532.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6532.41096875,"end":6550.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6551.007218750001,"end":6561.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6561.94221875,"end":6563.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6563.140343749999,"end":6597.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6597.092843750001,"end":6599.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6600.82221875,"end":6601.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6602.3240937499995,"end":6604.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6604.534718750001,"end":6605.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6605.81721875,"end":6607.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6607.774718750001,"end":6615.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6615.4697187500005,"end":6626.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6626.607218749999,"end":6629.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6629.83034375,"end":6651.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6652.5947187500005,"end":6656.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6657.1678437499995,"end":6681.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6681.839093750001,"end":6682.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6682.88534375,"end":6686.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6687.509093750001,"end":6689.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6690.310343749999,"end":6705.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6706.915343750001,"end":6714.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6714.67784375,"end":6716.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6717.20909375,"end":6727.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6728.16096875,"end":6729.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6729.966593749999,"end":6748.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6749.03534375,"end":6752.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6752.88284375,"end":6754.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6755.68409375,"end":6757.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6757.79346875,"end":6758.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6759.6834687499995,"end":6772.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6776.187218749999,"end":6777.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6777.94221875,"end":6778.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6784.118468750001,"end":6786.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6797.010968750001,"end":6798.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6798.7997187500005,"end":6799.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6799.94721875,"end":6800.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6806.0897187499995,"end":6806.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6807.034718750001,"end":6842.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6843.90659375,"end":6849.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6847.93971875,"end":6848.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6849.5428437499995,"end":6853.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6851.753468750001,"end":6855.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6853.390343749999,"end":6854.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6855.179093750001,"end":6857.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6860.325968749999,"end":6883.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6869.6747187500005,"end":6871.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6882.077843749999,"end":6887.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6885.4697187500005,"end":6902.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6893.8397187499995,"end":6893.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6893.856593750001,"end":6894.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6894.700343750001,"end":6895.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6896.573468750001,"end":6896.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6897.01221875,"end":6897.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6897.06284375,"end":6897.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6901.75409375,"end":6924.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6924.95721875,"end":6940.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6938.389718750001,"end":6959.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6960.411593750001,"end":6960.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6960.85034375,"end":6960.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6962.95971875,"end":6967.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6968.714093750001,"end":6969.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6969.38909375,"end":6969.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6969.692843750001,"end":6970.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6970.6884687500005,"end":6970.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6970.722218750001,"end":6970.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6970.772843750001,"end":6974.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6974.68784375,"end":6984.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6985.3865937499995,"end":6988.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6987.61409375,"end":6988.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6988.592843750001,"end":6997.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6989.53784375,"end":6989.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6996.456593750001,"end":7028.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7000.42221875,"end":7000.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7001.53596875,"end":7001.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7029.61596875,"end":7031.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7031.97846875,"end":7036.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7037.12534375,"end":7040.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7040.78721875,"end":7065.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7067.483468750001,"end":7071.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7070.92596875,"end":7076.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7076.46096875,"end":7078.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7078.97534375,"end":7081.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7086.653468750001,"end":7087.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7101.4022187499995,"end":7120.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7120.36971875,"end":7125.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7126.66409375,"end":7129.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7129.46534375,"end":7145.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7145.96909375,"end":7190.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7191.042218750001,"end":7231.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7231.89659375,"end":7236.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7237.14471875,"end":7251.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7251.876593750001,"end":7255.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7256.989718750001,"end":7263.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7263.8915937500005,"end":7265.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7265.5790937500005,"end":7272.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7273.442843750001,"end":7276.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7276.446593750001,"end":7281.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7282.6903437500005,"end":7289.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7292.88284375,"end":7299.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7293.878468750001,"end":7293.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7298.4178437499995,"end":7301.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7300.679093750001,"end":7312.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7309.639718750001,"end":7312.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7312.94721875,"end":7320.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7319.35971875,"end":7329.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7329.231593750001,"end":7334.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7334.04096875,"end":7341.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7340.1834687499995,"end":7345.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7345.448468750001,"end":7346.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7346.22471875,"end":7346.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7346.849093750001,"end":7347.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7347.28784375,"end":7349.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7347.33846875,"end":7347.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7350.561593750001,"end":7354.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7354.864718750001,"end":7358.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7364.466593749999,"end":7367.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7371.452843750001,"end":7379.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7380.39659375,"end":7380.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7380.43034375,"end":7389.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7389.779093749999,"end":7409.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7410.231593750001,"end":7414.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7415.243468750001,"end":7432.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7432.47284375,"end":7435.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7435.1728437500005,"end":7458.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7458.76409375,"end":7459.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7461.2615937499995,"end":7461.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7465.9697187500005,"end":7467.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7469.530343750001,"end":7478.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7484.903468750001,"end":7485.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7485.983468750001,"end":7487.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7487.58659375,"end":7488.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7495.062218750001,"end":7495.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7495.38284375,"end":7500.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7501.13721875,"end":7507.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7507.583468750001,"end":7510.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7510.2665937500005,"end":7511.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7511.430968750001,"end":7512.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7512.42659375,"end":7519.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7519.98659375,"end":7538.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7538.58284375,"end":7542.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7543.79721875,"end":7544.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7544.97846875,"end":7546.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7546.632218750001,"end":7549.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7550.54721875,"end":7560.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7560.925343750001,"end":7563.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7563.372218750001,"end":7565.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7565.430968750001,"end":7570.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7570.679093750001,"end":7572.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7572.33284375,"end":7573.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7573.817843750001,"end":7581.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7581.782843750001,"end":7587.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7588.09409375,"end":7590.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7590.270968750001,"end":7598.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7599.2822187500005,"end":7604.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7604.6990937499995,"end":7607.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7607.905343750001,"end":7610.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7610.858468750001,"end":7614.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7615.04346875,"end":7618.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7619.31284375,"end":7623.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7623.7509687500005,"end":7633.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7634.247218750001,"end":7638.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7638.651593750001,"end":7641.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7641.72284375,"end":7646.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7647.595343750001,"end":7658.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7658.2772187499995,"end":7659.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7660.2684687500005,"end":7664.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7665.43221875,"end":7667.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7667.102843750001,"end":7669.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7669.482218749999,"end":7672.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7673.02596875,"end":7675.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7675.827218750001,"end":7677.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7680.16409375,"end":7685.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7686.374093750001,"end":7701.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7701.76409375,"end":7707.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7707.38346875,"end":7713.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7714.18409375,"end":7726.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7726.722218750001,"end":7729.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7729.84409375,"end":7733.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7734.53534375,"end":7738.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7738.399718750001,"end":7740.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7740.89721875,"end":7759.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7760.30346875,"end":7767.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7768.403468750001,"end":7778.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7778.9334687499995,"end":7780.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7781.0428437499995,"end":7781.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7781.92034375,"end":7787.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7789.88534375,"end":7811.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7811.31659375,"end":7832.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7812.29534375,"end":7812.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7814.8603437500005,"end":7814.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7814.96159375,"end":7814.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7821.559718750001,"end":7822.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7833.99659375,"end":7855.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7855.343468750001,"end":7860.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7861.80659375,"end":7878.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7877.55096875,"end":7880.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7880.6728437500005,"end":7880.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7880.97659375,"end":7881.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7881.229718750001,"end":7881.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7882.19159375,"end":7882.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7882.64721875,"end":7891.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7882.88346875,"end":7883.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7888.6884687500005,"end":7917.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7918.118468750001,"end":7925.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7926.94409375,"end":7927.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7927.60221875,"end":7992.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7993.00971875,"end":8065.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8067.411593750001,"end":8073.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8074.077218750001,"end":8083.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8083.9490937499995,"end":8103.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8089.93971875,"end":8089.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8089.97346875,"end":8090.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8090.192843750001,"end":8090.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8093.6522187499995,"end":8094.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8094.95159375,"end":8095.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8097.43221875,"end":8097.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8097.4490937499995,"end":8097.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8097.7528437500005,"end":8097.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8104.064093750001,"end":8143.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8141.83034375,"end":8143.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8143.60221875,"end":8173.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8174.145968750001,"end":8210.055968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8210.84909375,"end":8239.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8240.481593750003,"end":8247.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8247.41721875,"end":8260.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8260.96784375,"end":8278.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8278.78784375,"end":8281.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8279.42909375,"end":8280.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8280.593468750001,"end":8280.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8281.707218750002,"end":8282.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8283.462218749999,"end":8286.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8294.903468750003,"end":8298.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8311.42409375,"end":8314.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8314.562843750002,"end":8315.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8326.155968750001,"end":8326.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8327.08409375,"end":8378.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8381.15159375,"end":8381.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8381.23596875,"end":8396.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8397.18284375,"end":8398.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8406.24471875,"end":8411.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8411.67846875,"end":8413.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8413.14659375,"end":8416.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8416.79159375,"end":8473.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8474.41971875,"end":8486.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8486.805968750003,"end":8486.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8486.97471875,"end":8585.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8586.570968750002,"end":8606.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8606.85471875,"end":8666.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8667.520343750002,"end":8676.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8676.210968750001,"end":8677.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8677.527218750001,"end":8678.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8679.41721875,"end":8679.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8679.434093750002,"end":8679.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8679.97409375,"end":8681.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8681.324093750001,"end":8681.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8681.695343750001,"end":8682.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":8681.965343750002,"end":8682.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8683.551593750002,"end":8685.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":8685.35721875,"end":8685.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8685.644093750001,"end":8686.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8686.58909375,"end":8686.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":8686.62284375,"end":8694.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8693.946593750003,"end":8736.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8739.390968750002,"end":8740.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":8740.808468750001,"end":8740.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8740.977218750002,"end":8751.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8741.21346875,"end":8743.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8747.91284375,"end":8749.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8750.157218750002,"end":8751.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8751.456593750001,"end":8751.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8751.55784375,"end":8751.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8751.59159375,"end":8751.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8751.794093750003,"end":8751.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8751.86159375,"end":8752.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8752.03034375,"end":8767.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8767.487843750001,"end":8767.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8767.707218750002,"end":8769.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8769.20909375,"end":8771.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8770.20471875,"end":8779.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8771.824718750002,"end":8771.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8771.925968750002,"end":8771.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8779.97534375,"end":8782.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8783.114093750002,"end":8786.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8786.97846875,"end":8833.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8833.82346875,"end":8839.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8839.274093750002,"end":8902.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8903.21346875,"end":8913.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8913.878468750001,"end":9005.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9006.25221875,"end":9007.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9008.715968750003,"end":9010.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9010.757843750001,"end":9023.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9024.004718750002,"end":9029.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9029.910968750002,"end":9082.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9083.60721875,"end":9084.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9084.72096875,"end":9104.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9103.65471875,"end":9104.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9104.86971875,"end":9108.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9105.44346875,"end":9107.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9108.98721875,"end":9109.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9109.29096875,"end":9109.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9109.51034375,"end":9112.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9112.480343750001,"end":9120.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9120.917843750001,"end":9121.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9121.69409375,"end":9130.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9130.77284375,"end":9132.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9132.59534375,"end":9132.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9132.629093750002,"end":9132.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9132.679718750001,"end":9132.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9132.696593750003,"end":9208.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9209.899718750003,"end":9232.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9233.38971875,"end":9240.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9248.222843750002,"end":9251.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9251.95221875,"end":9254.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9260.47409375,"end":9261.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9261.840968750003,"end":9328.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9329.965343750002,"end":9354.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9354.88971875,"end":9354.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9355.04159375,"end":9360.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9360.74534375,"end":9422.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9423.891593750002,"end":9441.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9441.863468750002,"end":9445.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9445.05284375,"end":9445.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9445.17096875,"end":9445.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9445.238468750002,"end":9451.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9452.54534375,"end":9481.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9481.992218750001,"end":9514.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9515.97846875,"end":9517.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9517.56471875,"end":9573.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9573.50534375,"end":9752.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9754.48971875,"end":9792.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9777.574718750002,"end":9778.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9791.243468750003,"end":9843.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9823.305968750003,"end":9823.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9833.92034375,"end":9834.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9834.03846875,"end":9835.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9844.450343750003,"end":9855.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9854.69346875,"end":9873.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9873.25596875,"end":9873.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9873.40784375,"end":9876.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9873.542843750001,"end":9873.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9877.37346875,"end":9897.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9897.08346875,"end":9903.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9898.922843750002,"end":9900.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9903.05721875,"end":9918.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9903.95159375,"end":9904.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9904.390343750001,"end":9904.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9918.17721875,"end":9951.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9952.602218750002,"end":10064.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10064.56784375,"end":10096.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10098.520343750002,"end":10107.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10099.718468750001,"end":10100.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10100.781593750002,"end":10101.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10101.16971875,"end":10101.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10412.327843750001,"end":10416.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10422.80721875,"end":10424.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10425.254093750002,"end":10426.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10433.910968750002,"end":10434.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10434.805343750002,"end":10483.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10484.62034375,"end":10498.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10500.398468750001,"end":10506.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10506.64221875,"end":10512.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10512.07596875,"end":10516.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10517.121593750002,"end":10552.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10552.62659375,"end":10566.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10567.425968750002,"end":10595.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10596.56909375,"end":10625.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10625.72909375,"end":10654.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10656.019718750002,"end":10658.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10658.331593750001,"end":10659.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10660.238468750002,"end":10695.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10680.15096875,"end":10680.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10680.285968750002,"end":10680.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10681.129718750002,"end":10681.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10684.875968750002,"end":10684.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10694.309093750002,"end":10695.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10695.08534375,"end":10696.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10696.03034375,"end":10725.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10696.06409375,"end":10698.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10726.33784375,"end":10739.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10739.145968750003,"end":10752.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10752.86534375,"end":10761.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10762.079093750002,"end":10767.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10765.724093750003,"end":10799.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10767.68159375,"end":10768.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10799.54159375,"end":10802.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10802.24159375,"end":10826.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10829.54534375,"end":10841.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10840.83471875,"end":10844.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10844.68221875,"end":10858.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10858.739093750002,"end":10894.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10894.125968750002,"end":10897.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10897.028468750003,"end":10897.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10898.15909375,"end":10963.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10965.06846875,"end":10990.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10990.12784375,"end":11010.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10994.22846875,"end":10995.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11010.27659375,"end":11027.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11026.425968750002,"end":11039.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11034.89721875,"end":11036.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11038.727843750003,"end":11043.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11041.309718750003,"end":11059.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11060.14221875,"end":11069.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11069.84534375,"end":11071.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11071.144718750002,"end":11075.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11075.59971875,"end":11078.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11078.586593750002,"end":11082.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11080.999718750001,"end":11081.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11082.19784375,"end":11082.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11083.63221875,"end":11123.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11131.45596875,"end":11139.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11138.239718750003,"end":11141.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11141.800343750001,"end":11165.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11167.29846875,"end":11179.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11179.27971875,"end":11186.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11182.148468750001,"end":11182.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11182.18221875,"end":11182.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11182.28346875,"end":11182.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11186.40096875,"end":11186.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11186.67096875,"end":11269.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11270.87721875,"end":11301.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11300.56034375,"end":11315.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11311.02284375,"end":11311.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11315.96721875,"end":11316.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11320.30409375,"end":11323.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11329.14659375,"end":11332.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11338.05659375,"end":11338.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11339.76096875,"end":11402.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11402.55284375,"end":11510.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11510.67096875,"end":11529.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11531.39346875,"end":11553.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11553.195968750002,"end":11556.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11555.74409375,"end":11556.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11556.824093750001,"end":11559.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11559.321593750003,"end":11564.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11560.38471875,"end":11561.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11563.72596875,"end":11570.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11570.425343750001,"end":11571.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11571.488468750002,"end":11580.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11573.277218750001,"end":11573.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11579.75721875,"end":11586.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11586.372218750003,"end":11589.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11589.12284375,"end":11591.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11591.40096875,"end":11604.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11597.83034375,"end":11597.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11597.864093750002,"end":11598.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11598.20159375,"end":11598.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11604.37784375,"end":11608.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11607.75284375,"end":11612.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11611.988468750002,"end":11613.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11612.29221875,"end":11612.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11612.49471875,"end":11614.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11614.35096875,"end":11628.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11629.133468750002,"end":11719.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11719.465343750002,"end":11760.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11760.927218750003,"end":11789.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11790.880343750003,"end":11797.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11798.59221875,"end":11825.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11825.33909375,"end":11831.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11831.954093750002,"end":11846.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11846.601593750001,"end":11852.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11852.74409375,"end":11869.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11862.312218750001,"end":11862.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11869.56846875,"end":11910.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11910.372218750003,"end":11979.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11981.027843750002,"end":12019.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12013.00596875,"end":12013.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12019.55346875,"end":12020.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12020.380343750003,"end":12081.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12082.024718750003,"end":12096.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12096.55409375,"end":12126.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12126.152843750002,"end":12134.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12135.02909375,"end":12143.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12143.21346875,"end":12144.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12143.58471875,"end":12145.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12151.06034375,"end":12153.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12162.07971875,"end":12163.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12164.15534375,"end":12165.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12171.90096875,"end":12172.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12172.778468750003,"end":12219.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12219.99471875,"end":12234.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12235.23284375,"end":12257.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12260.34284375,"end":12268.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12268.577843750001,"end":12272.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12273.47159375,"end":12274.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12275.175968750002,"end":12278.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12278.972843750002,"end":12282.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12283.07346875,"end":12284.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12284.76096875,"end":12286.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12286.48221875,"end":12334.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12335.16659375,"end":12359.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12359.618468750003,"end":12390.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12391.140968750002,"end":12415.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12417.31409375,"end":12417.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12418.07346875,"end":12418.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12418.512218750002,"end":12419.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12419.32221875,"end":12474.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12432.636593750001,"end":12432.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12432.974093750003,"end":12433.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12474.199718750002,"end":12478.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12476.477843750003,"end":12477.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12478.199093750001,"end":12532.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12533.32971875,"end":12546.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12546.070343750001,"end":12547.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12548.078468750002,"end":12610.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12548.297843750002,"end":12549.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12553.394093750001,"end":12553.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12574.656593750002,"end":12575.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12575.753468750001,"end":12575.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12611.17409375,"end":12647.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12648.07971875,"end":12650.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12651.15096875,"end":12672.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12673.476593750001,"end":12673.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12673.965968750003,"end":12678.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12678.606593750003,"end":12685.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12685.778468750003,"end":12712.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12713.554718750001,"end":12728.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12729.585968750001,"end":12774.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12741.719093750002,"end":12742.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12774.405968750001,"end":12793.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12794.80784375,"end":12813.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12813.79221875,"end":12826.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12827.81534375,"end":12841.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12842.665343750003,"end":12894.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12896.327843750001,"end":12897.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12898.487843750001,"end":12904.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12904.208468750003,"end":12911.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12912.105968750002,"end":12917.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12918.079718750003,"end":12923.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12923.42909375,"end":12928.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12930.06096875,"end":12936.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12933.43596875,"end":12933.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12934.532843750003,"end":12934.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12936.43971875,"end":12940.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12940.18596875,"end":12940.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12940.489718750003,"end":12941.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12941.940968750001,"end":12942.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12942.04221875,"end":12942.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12942.24471875,"end":12942.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12942.56534375,"end":12942.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12942.801593750002,"end":12942.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12942.81846875,"end":12942.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12943.999718750001,"end":12953.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12961.33034375,"end":12963.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12963.675968750002,"end":12964.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12969.56534375,"end":12971.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12972.214718750001,"end":12975.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12975.74159375,"end":12980.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12980.922218750002,"end":12983.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12983.470343750003,"end":12985.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12986.237843750001,"end":12991.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12991.65471875,"end":12992.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12993.375968750002,"end":12996.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12996.902843750002,"end":12997.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12998.08409375,"end":12999.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13001.189093750003,"end":13004.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13004.327843750001,"end":13008.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13008.74909375,"end":13015.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13015.92096875,"end":13019.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13019.24534375,"end":13034.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13035.64784375,"end":13043.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13044.203468750002,"end":13045.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13046.009093750003,"end":13048.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13048.72596875,"end":13050.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13051.206593750001,"end":13054.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13055.05409375,"end":13076.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13077.86909375,"end":13079.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13080.501593750003,"end":13081.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13081.56471875,"end":13082.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13082.864093750002,"end":13096.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13097.44409375,"end":13102.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13103.097218750001,"end":13107.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13108.04159375,"end":13142.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13142.58471875,"end":13143.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13143.63096875,"end":13144.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13145.082218750002,"end":13146.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13146.70221875,"end":13155.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13156.152218750001,"end":13161.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13162.395968750003,"end":13163.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13164.117218750001,"end":13174.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13175.22096875,"end":13177.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13178.950343750003,"end":13182.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13183.18596875,"end":13188.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13188.78846875,"end":13189.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13190.83034375,"end":13197.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13198.727843750003,"end":13208.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13208.751593750003,"end":13212.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13213.206593750001,"end":13229.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13229.86221875,"end":13230.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13230.97596875,"end":13246.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13248.10409375,"end":13253.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13255.714718750001,"end":13259.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13259.12346875,"end":13270.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13259.140343750001,"end":13259.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13271.52659375,"end":13276.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13277.145968750003,"end":13282.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13283.11971875,"end":13292.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13292.468468750001,"end":13296.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13297.649093750002,"end":13308.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13309.309718750003,"end":13312.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13313.12346875,"end":13315.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13315.317218750002,"end":13316.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13318.50659375,"end":13332.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13334.183468750001,"end":13337.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13338.098468750002,"end":13339.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13339.583468750003,"end":13343.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13343.71784375,"end":13346.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13347.970343750003,"end":13351.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13351.767218750003,"end":13365.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13366.02659375,"end":13366.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13367.22471875,"end":13370.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13371.105968750002,"end":13375.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13375.645343750002,"end":13383.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13384.69034375,"end":13405.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13405.88534375,"end":13412.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13412.669093750003,"end":13412.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13413.394718750002,"end":13429.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13429.375343750002,"end":13429.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13431.14721875,"end":13438.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13438.909718750001,"end":13455.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13456.274093750002,"end":13474.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13474.85346875,"end":13482.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13482.76784375,"end":13498.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13499.69346875,"end":13501.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13501.54971875,"end":13520.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13521.85034375,"end":13547.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13547.43284375,"end":13556.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13556.190968750001,"end":13560.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13560.949718750002,"end":13562.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13564.392218750003,"end":13577.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13577.90909375,"end":13579.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13577.976593750001,"end":13581.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13580.01846875,"end":13580.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13581.773468750001,"end":13587.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13589.114093750002,"end":13591.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13591.004093750002,"end":13593.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13592.45534375,"end":13637.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13596.79221875,"end":13596.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13637.460968750001,"end":13637.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13638.254093750002,"end":13638.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13638.81096875,"end":13638.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13638.96284375,"end":13638.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13638.996593750002,"end":13639.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13639.03034375,"end":13644.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13639.82346875,"end":13640.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13644.902843750002,"end":13669.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13648.21034375,"end":13648.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13653.89721875,"end":13653.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13653.914093750001,"end":13654.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13654.26846875,"end":13654.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13659.85409375,"end":13660.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13660.02284375,"end":13660.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13660.191593750002,"end":13660.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13669.77659375,"end":13672.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13673.489093750002,"end":13677.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13678.011593750001,"end":13679.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13679.867843750002,"end":13680.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13680.930968750003,"end":13691.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13689.13221875,"end":13689.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":13691.07284375,"end":13711.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13708.11659375,"end":13708.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13708.454093750002,"end":13710.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13710.124718750001,"end":13710.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13711.727843750003,"end":13721.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13724.82284375,"end":13726.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13726.594718750002,"end":13726.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13731.690968750001,"end":13732.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13736.73659375,"end":13745.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13748.92034375,"end":13750.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13751.23221875,"end":13751.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13754.438468750002,"end":13755.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13758.032843750003,"end":13758.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13759.079093750002,"end":13770.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13771.245968750001,"end":13771.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13771.262843750003,"end":13771.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13771.81971875,"end":13772.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13772.039093750001,"end":13772.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13772.12346875,"end":13772.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13772.140343750001,"end":13772.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13773.878468750001,"end":13802.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13786.872218750003,"end":13787.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13788.644093750001,"end":13788.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13802.34659375,"end":13805.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13802.39721875,"end":13803.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13805.704718750003,"end":13817.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13812.134093750003,"end":13812.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13817.11221875,"end":13839.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13845.124718750001,"end":13845.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13845.90096875,"end":13846.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13847.250968750002,"end":13848.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13848.972218750001,"end":13868.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13868.445968750002,"end":13873.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13873.96409375,"end":13874.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13874.048468750003,"end":13874.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13874.976593750001,"end":13891.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13892.492843750002,"end":13895.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13895.969093750002,"end":13938.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13940.50221875,"end":13944.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13944.83909375,"end":13962.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13962.76034375,"end":13963.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13963.097843750002,"end":13983.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13981.69409375,"end":14074.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13987.617218750001,"end":13987.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14075.19846875,"end":14075.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14076.29534375,"end":14076.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14077.08846875,"end":14077.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14078.489093750002,"end":14082.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14083.09596875,"end":14083.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14084.226593750001,"end":14103.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14105.117843750002,"end":14132.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14132.97846875,"end":14193.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14194.285343750002,"end":14227.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14228.17034375,"end":14228.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14228.204093750002,"end":14264.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14236.253468750001,"end":14236.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14263.81034375,"end":14273.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14274.441593750002,"end":14274.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14274.458468750003,"end":14282.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14282.96346875,"end":14289.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14283.520343750002,"end":14284.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14288.532218750002,"end":14289.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14289.848468750002,"end":14319.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14289.88221875,"end":14290.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14318.08034375,"end":14318.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14319.160343750002,"end":14320.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14320.66221875,"end":14361.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14361.68534375,"end":14361.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14362.714718750001,"end":14369.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14369.110343750002,"end":14369.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14370.173468750003,"end":14398.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14402.438468750002,"end":14403.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14405.003468750001,"end":14417.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14405.15534375,"end":14405.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14417.609093750001,"end":14420.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14419.836593750002,"end":14443.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14444.64284375,"end":14445.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14447.207843750002,"end":14461.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14461.09596875,"end":14478.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14479.169093750003,"end":14537.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14537.269718750002,"end":14537.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14538.332843750002,"end":14547.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14547.563468750002,"end":14549.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14549.84159375,"end":14555.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14555.96721875,"end":14562.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14563.375343750002,"end":14593.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14563.45971875,"end":14564.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14566.46346875,"end":14568.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14568.30284375,"end":14568.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14569.36596875,"end":14569.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14570.46284375,"end":14570.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14590.155968750001,"end":14592.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14593.14284375,"end":14593.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14593.328468750002,"end":14593.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14593.345343750003,"end":14593.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14593.379093750002,"end":14593.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14594.30721875,"end":14611.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14611.840343750002,"end":14612.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14612.481593750003,"end":14700.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14702.070968750002,"end":14704.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14704.433468750001,"end":14720.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14721.13971875,"end":14744.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14744.91659375,"end":14765.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14765.875343750002,"end":14793.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14794.309718750003,"end":14842.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14843.04471875,"end":14845.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14845.879718750002,"end":14855.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14855.481593750003,"end":14924.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14925.968468750001,"end":14931.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14931.689093750003,"end":14933.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14934.86159375,"end":14938.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14938.860968750003,"end":14943.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14943.450968750003,"end":14946.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14947.011593750001,"end":14947.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14949.036593750003,"end":14951.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14952.63096875,"end":14954.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14955.449093750001,"end":14956.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14956.12409375,"end":14956.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14956.32659375,"end":14956.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14956.42784375,"end":14956.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14956.54596875,"end":14956.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14956.96784375,"end":14961.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14963.92034375,"end":14966.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14967.19409375,"end":14967.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14967.261593750001,"end":14968.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14968.98284375,"end":14973.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14975.142218750003,"end":14978.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14980.778468750003,"end":14988.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14988.81096875,"end":14995.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14995.797218750002,"end":15001.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15002.243468750003,"end":15003.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15004.082843750002,"end":15006.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15006.74909375,"end":15007.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15007.255343750003,"end":15021.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15021.160343750002,"end":15021.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15022.206593750001,"end":15034.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15035.21721875,"end":15038.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15037.00596875,"end":15090.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15090.685343750003,"end":15103.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15103.965968750003,"end":15138.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15138.458468750003,"end":15156.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15156.02534375,"end":15162.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15161.189093750003,"end":15199.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15163.230968750002,"end":15163.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15184.071593750003,"end":15184.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15188.72909375,"end":15189.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15199.32659375,"end":15220.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15220.79159375,"end":15235.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15233.76846875,"end":15234.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15235.35471875,"end":15260.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15260.903468750003,"end":15263.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15261.105968750002,"end":15262.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15263.417843750001,"end":15263.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15263.586593750002,"end":15263.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15263.67096875,"end":15263.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15263.704718750003,"end":15263.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15263.97471875,"end":15265.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15264.548468750003,"end":15265.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15265.78034375,"end":15273.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15273.880343750003,"end":15275.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15277.06971875,"end":15280.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15280.140968750002,"end":15280.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15280.17471875,"end":15281.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15281.777843750002,"end":15304.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15304.930343750002,"end":15307.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15307.86659375,"end":15309.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15309.95909375,"end":15311.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15311.562218750001,"end":15330.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15333.989093750002,"end":15348.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":15347.067218750002,"end":15349.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15349.024718750003,"end":15389.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15388.74846875,"end":15394.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15394.45221875,"end":15398.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15398.232218750003,"end":15403.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15399.008468750002,"end":15400.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15401.45534375,"end":15405.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15404.391593750002,"end":15407.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15406.382843750001,"end":15407.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15408.762218750002,"end":15413.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15408.79596875,"end":15409.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15409.26846875,"end":15409.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15409.42034375,"end":15409.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15409.47096875,"end":15409.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15409.504718750002,"end":15410.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15410.027843750002,"end":15411.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15413.95971875,"end":15415.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15414.465968750003,"end":15422.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15415.05659375,"end":15415.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15423.156593750002,"end":15424.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15424.55721875,"end":15426.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15426.970343750003,"end":15427.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15429.164093750001,"end":15429.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15431.391593750002,"end":15431.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15432.269093750001,"end":15432.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15433.720343750003,"end":15434.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15433.754093750002,"end":15435.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15435.762218750002,"end":15436.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15435.79596875,"end":15438.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15438.968468750001,"end":15439.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15439.035968750002,"end":15439.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15439.96409375,"end":15440.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15440.031593750002,"end":15442.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15443.102843750003,"end":15443.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15443.96346875,"end":15451.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15452.704718750003,"end":15457.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15464.652218750001,"end":15466.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15467.183468750001,"end":15468.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15474.01784375,"end":15483.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15475.013468750003,"end":15475.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15483.974093750003,"end":15523.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15523.630343750003,"end":15591.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15592.649093750002,"end":15620.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15621.066593750002,"end":15637.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15639.02159375,"end":15640.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15640.23659375,"end":15647.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15648.20159375,"end":15648.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15648.927218750003,"end":15650.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15651.171593750001,"end":15651.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15651.407843750003,"end":15664.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15665.24534375,"end":15669.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15669.278468750003,"end":15725.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15726.83909375,"end":15758.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15758.766593750002,"end":15832.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15832.324718750002,"end":15833.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15834.535343750002,"end":15867.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15867.57659375,"end":15868.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15868.605968750002,"end":15874.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15874.157843750003,"end":15875.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15880.82346875,"end":15884.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15891.539093750001,"end":15893.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15894.00284375,"end":15894.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15894.930968750003,"end":15895.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15900.90471875,"end":15901.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15902.946593750003,"end":15906.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15906.642218750003,"end":15910.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15911.08034375,"end":15915.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15915.450968750003,"end":15916.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15917.965343750002,"end":15918.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15918.977843750003,"end":15919.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15919.079093750002,"end":15922.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15924.023468750001,"end":15927.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15928.765343750001,"end":15929.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15929.997218750003,"end":15933.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15934.317218750002,"end":15936.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15937.742843750002,"end":15938.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15938.56971875,"end":15952.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15953.841593750003,"end":15959.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15959.612843750001,"end":15965.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15966.784718750001,"end":15968.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15968.97846875,"end":15972.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15972.809093750002,"end":15984.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15985.27971875,"end":15987.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15988.33409375,"end":16002.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16004.399093750002,"end":16006.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16007.33534375,"end":16008.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16009.191593750002,"end":16010.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16010.997218750003,"end":16032.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16032.394718750002,"end":16037.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16037.980343750001,"end":16039.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16040.140343750001,"end":16040.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16041.92909375,"end":16042.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16043.71784375,"end":16059.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16060.64346875,"end":16077.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16078.767218750003,"end":16080.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16080.74159375,"end":16084.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16085.31471875,"end":16087.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16088.099093750003,"end":16092.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16093.12784375,"end":16093.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16094.528468750003,"end":16099.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16101.04221875,"end":16104.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16104.88971875,"end":16107.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16107.859718750002,"end":16113.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16114.997843750003,"end":16116.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16117.22534375,"end":16120.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16120.97159375,"end":16123.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16124.380343750003,"end":16126.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16127.097218750001,"end":16129.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16130.860343750002,"end":16131.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16132.581593750001,"end":16134.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16135.26471875,"end":16138.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16139.80409375,"end":16140.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16140.85034375,"end":16144.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16145.76096875,"end":16148.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16149.65909375,"end":16154.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16155.71721875,"end":16165.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16165.825343750003,"end":16179.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16179.19034375,"end":16180.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16180.60784375,"end":16180.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16181.434718750003,"end":16186.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16187.40846875,"end":16188.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16187.442218750002,"end":16188.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16189.31534375,"end":16194.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16189.36596875,"end":16191.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16192.234718750002,"end":16192.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16193.567843750003,"end":16193.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16194.023468750001,"end":16231.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16194.42846875,"end":16194.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16229.81534375,"end":16230.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16230.996593750002,"end":16241.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16239.737843750001,"end":16240.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16241.94846875,"end":16246.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16242.505343750003,"end":16244.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16244.42909375,"end":16246.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16246.673468750003,"end":16247.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16247.85471875,"end":16248.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16250.504093750002,"end":16251.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16252.613468750002,"end":16254.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16265.910968750002,"end":16275.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16275.95159375,"end":16278.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16282.75221875,"end":16282.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16283.376593750003,"end":16314.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16314.56159375,"end":16315.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16315.574093750001,"end":16320.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16321.41284375,"end":16363.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16364.579093750002,"end":16374.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16374.09659375,"end":16374.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16374.501593750003,"end":16374.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16374.974093750003,"end":16394.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16395.359093749998,"end":16396.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16396.74284375,"end":16403.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16403.94846875,"end":16419.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16419.473468750002,"end":16439.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16439.723468750002,"end":16450.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16450.33784375,"end":16467.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16468.17471875,"end":16478.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16479.46409375,"end":16480.155968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16480.577843749998,"end":16484.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16484.84721875,"end":16486.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16486.63596875,"end":16489.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16490.061593749997,"end":16502.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16503.62909375,"end":16512.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16512.25221875,"end":16524.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16524.90846875,"end":16534.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16534.577843749998,"end":16541.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16541.209718750004,"end":16558.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16559.772218750004,"end":16565.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16565.965343750002,"end":16569.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16569.914093749998,"end":16574.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16574.976593749998,"end":16615.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16615.49346875,"end":16618.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16618.44659375,"end":16621.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16621.60221875,"end":16624.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16624.960343749997,"end":16625.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16625.044718750003,"end":16640.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16641.02534375,"end":16642.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16642.459718750004,"end":16647.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16647.944093750004,"end":16648.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16649.17596875,"end":16651.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16652.669093750003,"end":16667.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16668.43034375,"end":16670.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16673.08784375,"end":16673.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16675.11284375,"end":16676.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16676.02409375,"end":16682.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16683.786593750003,"end":16684.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16684.309718750003,"end":16684.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16684.46159375,"end":16684.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16684.630343750003,"end":16684.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16684.984718749998,"end":16685.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16687.785968750002,"end":16688.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16688.730968750002,"end":16705.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16707.867218749998,"end":16734.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16735.289093749998,"end":16737.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16735.93034375,"end":16735.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16736.80784375,"end":16736.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16737.567218750002,"end":16744.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16745.21159375,"end":16748.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16747.35471875,"end":16751.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16750.476593749998,"end":16752.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16751.607218750003,"end":16754.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16755.77534375,"end":16756.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16756.686593749997,"end":16759.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16757.27721875,"end":16760.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16760.41596875,"end":16767.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16767.554093749997,"end":16767.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16767.58784375,"end":16775.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16767.70596875,"end":16768.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16775.215343750002,"end":16840.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16841.41596875,"end":16858.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16852.215968750003,"end":16852.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16858.83096875,"end":16955.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16955.895968750003,"end":16979.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16978.997843750003,"end":17002.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17002.13346875,"end":17011.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17002.740968750004,"end":17003.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17007.263468750003,"end":17007.499718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17011.380968750003,"end":17025.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17018.80596875,"end":17019.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17025.23534375,"end":17103.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17104.210343749997,"end":17106.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17106.522218750004,"end":17153.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17154.22784375,"end":17155.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17155.341593750003,"end":17159.054093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17159.50971875,"end":17293.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17294.00346875,"end":17367.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17367.443468750003,"end":17390.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17392.36784375,"end":17395.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17396.029718750004,"end":17396.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17396.046593749998,"end":17396.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17396.31659375,"end":17421.156593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17400.31596875,"end":17400.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17418.52409375,"end":17418.827843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17420.616593749997,"end":17420.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17421.30846875,"end":17450.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17421.37596875,"end":17422.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17434.80846875,"end":17434.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17438.554718749998,"end":17438.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17449.89471875,"end":17451.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17450.333468750003,"end":17451.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17451.02534375,"end":17466.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17451.717218750004,"end":17451.835343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17469.08159375,"end":17477.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17483.357843750004,"end":17486.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17483.982218750003,"end":17484.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17484.809093750002,"end":17484.842843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17487.036593750003,"end":17490.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17490.293468750002,"end":17507.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17508.147218750004,"end":17524.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17524.094093749998,"end":17525.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17525.663468749997,"end":17526.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17526.25409375,"end":17527.452218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17527.452218749997,"end":17527.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17527.48596875,"end":17547.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17535.855968750002,"end":17535.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17535.906593749998,"end":17538.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17538.03284375,"end":17538.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17538.960968749998,"end":17538.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17544.732218750003,"end":17544.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17544.765968749998,"end":17544.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17544.78284375,"end":17545.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17545.035968750002,"end":17545.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17545.08659375,"end":17545.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17545.20471875,"end":17545.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17548.03971875,"end":17550.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17550.435968750004,"end":17557.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17556.848468750002,"end":17564.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17564.374718749998,"end":17565.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17565.37034375,"end":17570.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17570.449718750002,"end":17575.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17574.567218750002,"end":17631.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17631.99284375,"end":17644.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17643.40034375,"end":17647.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17647.973468750002,"end":17649.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17648.547218749998,"end":17662.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17662.030343749997,"end":17724.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17664.105968750002,"end":17664.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17725.328468749998,"end":17729.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":17728.18034375,"end":17728.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17730.053468750004,"end":17734.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17735.436593749997,"end":17736.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17736.93846875,"end":17737.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17737.25909375,"end":17750.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17750.489093750002,"end":17764.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17764.17471875,"end":17781.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17781.65721875,"end":17781.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17781.707843750002,"end":17781.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17781.741593749997,"end":17782.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17782.63596875,"end":17782.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17782.652843750002,"end":17787.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17788.30596875,"end":17788.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17789.80784375,"end":17802.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17805.95721875,"end":17807.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17807.796593749998,"end":17808.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17814.39471875,"end":17855.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17856.396593750003,"end":17887.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17886.28221875,"end":17890.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17890.07909375,"end":17902.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17902.465343750002,"end":17922.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17922.36096875,"end":17926.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17926.967843749997,"end":17929.077218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17929.077218749997,"end":17929.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17931.068468750003,"end":17931.085343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17931.085343749997,"end":17932.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17932.60409375,"end":17956.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":17956.97159375,"end":18062.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18062.32221875,"end":18065.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18062.52471875,"end":18063.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18064.76909375,"end":18071.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18078.944093750004,"end":18080.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18081.93096875,"end":18082.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18083.01096875,"end":18083.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18087.600968749997,"end":18195.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":18088.005968750003,"end":18088.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18196.17471875,"end":18199.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18199.97159375,"end":18201.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18202.840343750002,"end":18204.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18204.93284375,"end":18209.100968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18209.505968750003,"end":18215.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18215.86784375,"end":18217.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18217.015343749998,"end":18350.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18351.694718749997,"end":18353.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18352.69034375,"end":18352.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18352.70721875,"end":18352.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18352.740968750004,"end":18352.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18352.97721875,"end":18355.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18355.94721875,"end":18359.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18367.01721875,"end":18369.936593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18369.936593749997,"end":18369.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18369.953468749998,"end":18370.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18372.653468750003,"end":18417.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18418.114718750003,"end":18448.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18430.93971875,"end":18431.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18448.928468750004,"end":18457.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18457.669718750003,"end":18462.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18462.47909375,"end":18468.132218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18468.520343750002,"end":18480.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18479.590343750002,"end":18581.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18582.51096875,"end":18603.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18599.47034375,"end":18600.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18600.702218749997,"end":18605.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18605.15721875,"end":18609.443468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18606.97971875,"end":18607.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18608.02596875,"end":18619.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18619.92284375,"end":18637.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18637.01721875,"end":18637.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18637.202843749998,"end":18637.725968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18637.725968749997,"end":18637.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18637.928468750004,"end":18638.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18638.92409375,"end":18649.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18649.28534375,"end":18651.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18656.84534375,"end":18658.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18667.139093750004,"end":18667.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18667.93221875,"end":18668.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18669.09659375,"end":18669.467843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18670.14284375,"end":18672.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18672.809093750002,"end":18674.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18675.08721875,"end":18677.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18678.090968750003,"end":18680.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18680.92596875,"end":18686.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18688.19909375,"end":18693.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18694.577843749998,"end":18697.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18698.22284375,"end":18699.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18700.43346875,"end":18702.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18702.981593750003,"end":18705.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18705.850343750004,"end":18707.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18707.757218749997,"end":18708.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18708.719093749998,"end":18709.124093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18709.61346875,"end":18711.014093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18711.621593750002,"end":18712.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18712.684718750003,"end":18715.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18715.36784375,"end":18722.522843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18723.18096875,"end":18729.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18731.365343750003,"end":18747.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18746.82284375,"end":18748.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18748.999718749998,"end":18751.092218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18751.395968750003,"end":18753.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18754.129718750002,"end":18756.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18754.18034375,"end":18754.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18756.694718749997,"end":18756.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18756.71159375,"end":18759.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18760.137218750002,"end":18769.350968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18769.739093750002,"end":18770.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18769.958468750003,"end":18772.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18772.692218750002,"end":18774.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18775.476593749998,"end":18777.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18777.83909375,"end":18779.475968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18779.779718750004,"end":18786.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18786.546593749998,"end":18787.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18786.98534375,"end":18788.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18788.67284375,"end":18790.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18791.45721875,"end":18801.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18801.12659375,"end":18801.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":18801.44721875,"end":18801.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18801.801593750002,"end":18801.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18801.97034375,"end":18806.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18801.98721875,"end":18802.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18807.437843749998,"end":18814.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18815.099093750003,"end":18824.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18824.717843750004,"end":18827.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18828.396593750003,"end":18829.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18829.94909375,"end":18831.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18831.889718750004,"end":18833.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18833.678468750004,"end":18837.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18838.740968750004,"end":18844.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18845.64284375,"end":18854.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18855.278468750003,"end":18857.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18857.387843750003,"end":18858.467843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18859.24409375,"end":18859.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18860.256593750004,"end":18862.264718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18862.467218750004,"end":18870.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18871.27596875,"end":18873.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18873.72284375,"end":18876.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18878.414093749998,"end":18882.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18882.902843750002,"end":18883.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18883.122218750003,"end":18884.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18884.505968750003,"end":18894.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18895.170968750004,"end":18898.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18898.57971875,"end":18902.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18902.005343750003,"end":18905.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18906.37596875,"end":18906.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18907.371593750002,"end":18914.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18914.93159375,"end":18926.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18926.372843750003,"end":18927.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18928.296593749998,"end":18930.827843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18931.334093750003,"end":18932.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18932.88659375,"end":18934.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18935.130968750003,"end":18939.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18939.889718750004,"end":18940.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18941.121593750002,"end":18942.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18942.809093750002,"end":18944.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18944.952218750004,"end":18946.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18947.044718750003,"end":18947.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18947.905343750004,"end":18951.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18952.15784375,"end":18957.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18957.794093750003,"end":18959.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18960.30846875,"end":18962.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18962.687843749998,"end":18964.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18964.645343750002,"end":18966.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18968.10471875,"end":18972.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18972.762218750002,"end":18975.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18975.88409375,"end":18985.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18986.04284375,"end":19001.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19001.162843750004,"end":19003.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19003.592843750004,"end":19004.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19005.263468750003,"end":19007.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":19006.03971875,"end":19006.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19006.090343750002,"end":19007.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":19007.03534375,"end":19007.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19008.030968749998,"end":19008.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":19008.250343749998,"end":19009.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19008.250343749998,"end":19018.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19018.61159375,"end":19020.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19018.62846875,"end":19018.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19019.45534375,"end":19019.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19019.57346875,"end":19019.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19019.89409375,"end":19020.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19020.19784375,"end":19028.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19020.53534375,"end":19020.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19036.41471875,"end":19037.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19038.085343749997,"end":19039.350968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19047.07971875,"end":19048.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19048.007843749998,"end":19048.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19048.24409375,"end":19048.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19048.58159375,"end":19056.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19056.715343750002,"end":19062.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19062.08159375,"end":19062.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19062.520343750002,"end":19062.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19062.90846875,"end":19075.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19075.96971875,"end":19076.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19076.880968750003,"end":19085.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19084.76159375,"end":19084.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19085.80784375,"end":19090.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19090.53284375,"end":19100.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19100.809718750003,"end":19100.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19100.86034375,"end":19101.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19101.029093750003,"end":19124.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":19106.37846875,"end":19106.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19106.86784375,"end":19106.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19125.413468749997,"end":19125.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19125.801593750002,"end":19134.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19134.694718749997,"end":19135.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19137.98534375,"end":19159.163468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19161.40784375,"end":19167.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19166.858468750004,"end":19177.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19170.351593749998,"end":19171.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":19171.094093749998,"end":19171.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19171.12784375,"end":19171.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19178.569718749997,"end":19190.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19190.922218749998,"end":19209.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19211.560343750003,"end":19212.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19212.06659375,"end":19215.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19216.521593750003,"end":19220.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19220.16659375,"end":19227.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19228.350968749997,"end":19231.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19232.046593749998,"end":19236.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19236.585968749998,"end":19242.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19244.39909375,"end":19256.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19257.19034375,"end":19258.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19258.96221875,"end":19264.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19265.10471875,"end":19294.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19297.015343749998,"end":19301.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19302.11159375,"end":19302.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19302.93846875,"end":19311.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19311.91596875,"end":19353.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19311.93284375,"end":19312.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19354.10346875,"end":19377.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19378.06596875,"end":19378.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19378.099718750003,"end":19378.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19378.57221875,"end":19378.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19378.70721875,"end":19378.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19378.97721875,"end":19398.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19398.95721875,"end":19418.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19428.218468749998,"end":19428.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19428.404093750003,"end":19428.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19428.48846875,"end":19429.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19429.905968749998,"end":19431.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19431.96471875,"end":19432.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19432.184093750002,"end":19433.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19482.69096875,"end":19482.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19483.92284375,"end":19484.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19483.93971875,"end":19484.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19484.04096875,"end":19484.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":19484.66534375,"end":19485.08721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":55.065,"end":58.889,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":82.944,"end":85.657,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":143.66,"end":150.866,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":183.313,"end":192.04,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":235.547,"end":235.767,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":327.022,"end":349.036,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":359.616,"end":375.971,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":415.332,"end":415.673,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":422.118,"end":439.742,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":475.049,"end":479.173,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":490.374,"end":497.56,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":519.263,"end":526.148,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":538.131,"end":540.316,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":553.317,"end":553.758,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":571.681,"end":586.681,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":597.949,"end":598.89,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":607.756,"end":635.435,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":657.922,"end":660.123,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":672.278,"end":672.338,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":691.186,"end":721.169,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":722.751,"end":735.285,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":748.933,"end":772.346,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":777.398,"end":803.712,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":825.63,"end":825.91,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":834.002,"end":858.575,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":861.295,"end":862.335,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":894.155,"end":901.126,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":933.619,"end":943.082,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":959.033,"end":961.681,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":993.131,"end":1000.259,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1023.78,"end":1040.879,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1055.641,"end":1057.904,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1106.325,"end":1107.066,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1113.131,"end":1136.971,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1143.395,"end":1153.407,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1162.983,"end":1164.985,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1209.636,"end":1223.501,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1247.862,"end":1255.567,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1299.667,"end":1300.804,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1356.424,"end":1361.506,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1411.067,"end":1427.387,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1448.819,"end":1449.239,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1480.469,"end":1504.923,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1517.1,"end":1537.14,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1542.619,"end":1548.743,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1565.299,"end":1591.698,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1602.887,"end":1608.01,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1631.357,"end":1651.596,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1664.985,"end":1666.786,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1687.303,"end":1698.136,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1777.083,"end":1787.568,"text":"報告委員會初期的委員15人以足法定人數我們現在開會本週一三為一次會我們首先進行報告事項我們請議事演員宣讀上一次的會議議事錄"},{"start":1788.908,"end":1812.887,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議．事由．中華民國113年5月22日上午9時12分．下午1時35分．中華民國113年5月23日上午9時至12時57分．本院全協樓101會議室．出席委員萬美林委員等15人．列席委員顏寬衡委員等15人．列席人員5月22日．文化部部長李遠算同有關人員．"},{"start":1813.827,"end":1838.207,"text":"5月23日國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文率同有關人員行政院主席總促公共預算處專門委員黃子涵主席林昭吉委員一經5月22日報道是想依宣讀上次會議事務決定．事務確定為文化部部長李源列席報告業務概況．並備質詢本日已曾由委員萬美玲等21人提出質詢均經文化部部長李源及相關人員及其答覆說明"},{"start":1838.667,"end":1859.838,"text":"六委員陳冠廷等二委員提出書面質詢決定一報告及詢問完畢二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀律部刊登公報三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關技術以書面答覆通過臨時提案四下五月二三日報告四下國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文列席報告業務概況．並備質詢"},{"start":1861.919,"end":1877.868,"text":"討論事項,審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算公務預算解凍案期案本日議程採綜合詢討,由委員柯志恩等20人提出質詢,均經國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承威及相關人員及其答覆說明"},{"start":1878.628,"end":1881.971,"text":"好請問各位委員上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或是遺漏之錯"},{"start":1908.032,"end":1934.068,"text":"好沒有的話我們就議事錄確定我們今天的議程是邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務狀況並且並備質詢我們首先介紹在場的委員其次再來介紹與會的官員那在場委員有萬美玲委員林倩琦委員好那我們目前我們來介紹一下教育部的官員我們歡迎我們的部長鄭英耀鄭部長"},{"start":1936.537,"end":1957.592,"text":"還有我們的政務次長張廖萬堅看到你坐在這裏真是非常不習慣還有我們的政務次長葉秉成還有我們的常務次長林藤角那其他都是大家非常的熟悉的我就不一一介紹了那我們現在就請我們的教育部政部長來進行報告報告時間是12分鐘"},{"start":1971.229,"end":1999.294,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家好應邀今日應邀列席貴委員會就本部主管全國教育體育及青年發展等業務提出報告甚感榮幸進行各位委員會議指導教育工作是一棒接一棒的工作本部在歷任部長與同仁長期以來的努力讓台灣教育續續以更多能量"},{"start":2000.202,"end":2024.664,"text":"未來將在既有基礎上持續穩健推動與發展個人也深感各界對於教育發展關心期待將秉持所有的教育的改變與創新都要讓教育品質更好的核心價值從本土團隊創新國際著眼讓教育政策得以日益精進讓世界看到台灣人才的貢獻"},{"start":2025.825,"end":2039.471,"text":"也誠摯感謝各位委員長期以來的支持並感謝許多教育夥伴工作者的投入讓年輕世代因受教育而能擁有更美好的人生更豐富的生命發展"},{"start":2040.305,"end":2055.93,"text":"以下請則要報告12項教育施政及未來規劃重點．並將持續深化相關內容備有詳細的書面資料．敬請各務委員先進指教首先在學前教育方面"},{"start":2056.73,"end":2085.877,"text":"我們會持續健全友善成長環境協助育兒家庭建立平價優質普及幼兒教育環境延續0到6歲國家一起養的政策推動2.0升級措施未來將積極盤點學校空一空間鼓勵及協助各地方政府及企業合作增設兩歲專班滿足家長托育的需求在國教方面"},{"start":2087.076,"end":2098.566,"text":"回應各界對於國民教育其品質取喜除完善法令配套措施外積極倡議活化學校創新空間使用提升校園閒置空間"},{"start":2100.144,"end":2125.049,"text":"場域多樣性：落實偏遠地區學校教師專長授課：推動施培與大學社會責任及死懷者計畫支援偏遠學校教學此外本部也將積極致力未來人才培育準備因應產業人才的需求及科學園區的發展協助及配合地方實驗中小學的設置"},{"start":2127.645,"end":2151.137,"text":"完善區域教學資源．持續朝均衡教育品質．落實教育專業化．縮短城鄉差距第三．在技職教育方面．因應基礎工業需求．強化民生產業必要技術人才的培育．持續推動建置區域產業人才及技術培育基地計劃"},{"start":2153.078,"end":2175.65,"text":"產學攜手合作計畫2.0產學學院計畫減少學用落差讓產學公益人才更彰顯聚職教育的價值此外福運前瞻產業的脈動擴大產業需求實作環境以精進學士後多元專長培育課程培力課程日後也將"},{"start":2177.011,"end":2184.359,"text":"在確保教學品質前提下,賦予計時校園辦學彈性,結合產業辦理專業學校,更接軌產業需求,應益專業技術人才。"},{"start":2192.168,"end":2215.294,"text":"第四在高等教育方面確保學生安心就學促進教育平權前提下秉持為國家培育人才協助產業發展的信念拓展學生對於產業認識加強學生對於個人能力的理解及產業間的適配度台灣掌握半導體先進製程技術更是全球產業供應鏈的關鍵"},{"start":2217.89,"end":2240.289,"text":"身為半導體科技王國的我們未來將持續攜手各大專業校共同針對國家重點領域量子電腦無人機精準醫療機械人元宇宙AI太空科技海洋科技等等培育前瞻科技所需人才帶動產業發展以打造台灣在未來世界的領先地位"},{"start":2240.99,"end":2248.648,"text":"第5在數位科技教育方面面對全球化前面性競爭的時代除完備數位學習輔導支持系統"},{"start":2251.608,"end":2272.682,"text":"達成數位平權目標將持續規劃下世代AI人才培育將人才數位學習作為學生基本能力以中小學扎根基礎大學跨域學習及全民AI素養提升為階段執行策略結合產業公司學歷整合辦理科技教育AI"},{"start":2273.939,"end":2291.846,"text":"各項應用競賽全面普及AI素養與能力在語言教育方面落實國家語言整體發展方案深化本土語言教育未來將建置本土語言AI學習資源發展手機語音輸入APP"},{"start":2292.964,"end":2303.689,"text":"語音工具,優化社教機構本土語言學習資源及導覽服務,促進本土各族群語言傳承、附贈與發展"},{"start":2305.868,"end":2333.995,"text":"在既有成果上持續推動國中小沉浸式本土語言實驗班級讓本土語言融入學生課程與生活此外結合大學社會責任特別是偏鄉離島原民部落等辦理假期兒童英語應對第7在國際教育方面持續尋求高等教育議題上的合作機會外"},{"start":2336.267,"end":2351.105,"text":"將積極努力為台灣培育具宏觀視野國際人才倍增工會留學獎學金並協助經濟文化弱勢增加出國留學深造機會拓展國際視野"},{"start":2353.516,"end":2380.369,"text":"借此翻轉其生命日後更可回國貢獻所學另外未來也將持續深化國際姐妹學校的一個學習交流顯送教師出國入班觀客更善用全球半導體產業領先地位推出半導體華語教材接軌世界國際教育其次在安心校園方面有效營造安心"},{"start":2381.636,"end":2386.202,"text":"友善校園環境未來加強與警政系統跨部會合作"},{"start":2387.595,"end":2415.821,"text":"強化學校與家庭、社政及衛政單位的一個連結建構校園與社區安全防護網確保學生安全學習為促進性別地位實質平等維護人格尊嚴消除性別歧視並積極預防校園霸凌此外也加強學校心理諮商資源尊設身心調適架協助學生"},{"start":2416.901,"end":2438.684,"text":"決察自己心理狀態調適身心。第9在中生學習方面面對全球化競爭與中生學習歧視我們積極規劃學習型城市認證打造全民愛學習的臺灣推動跨世代親民共學朝數位創新全民學習永續發展方向"},{"start":2439.545,"end":2464.642,"text":"往前邁進應用AI科技將國立社教機構轉型為創新學習的實驗場域也成為認識世界文化的窗口成為區域大手西小手同遊的全民學習中心未來將事辦第三人生大學擴增中高齡人口學習機會第10在嚴明教育方面"},{"start":2465.857,"end":2489.112,"text":"為建構原住民學生安心學習環境在原住民族教育師資質量精進原住民族實驗教育發展原住民族語言教育生根及培育原住民族多元人才具有的成果基礎上將更精進原住民民族教育資源中心的功能促進學生瞭解"},{"start":2490.214,"end":2512.179,"text":"顏住民族文化意涵以多元管道培育顏住民族族語及文化師資深化推動顏住民族語言教育拓展中小學顏住民族文化學習場域完備顏住民族文化學習空間11在體育運動方面面對國際體育運動發展"},{"start":2514.764,"end":2522.771,"text":"朝流及人民健康福祉發展將推出防經計畫3.0及優秀運動選手輔導方案2.0升級措施輔導地方政府設置區域特設運動種類基層訓練站建置學校教育三級銜接培訓的體"},{"start":2538.359,"end":2565.324,"text":"提示深化體育人才的培育機制積極鼓勵地方開放校園提供場域設備推動社區為焦點的全民運動此外華為四面黃海優勢鼓勵學生親近海洋辦理海域運動體驗活動豐富海洋生活更整體帶動全民運動不久的將來配合行政院積極規劃成立體育暨運動發展部"},{"start":2568.405,"end":2590.492,"text":"透過體育運動強化國際能見度事實發揮國際運動社群成員的義務和貢獻最後在青年發展方面為契合社會的需求實際傾聽青年的需要促進青年交流及地方創生政策持續推動You Start創新創業計畫未來將擴大職場體驗機會協助青年職涯發展"},{"start":2597.503,"end":2622.479,"text":"更為積極鼓勵大專校院學生開拓國際視野培養全球化相關技能帶動教育國際化沿意設立百億青年圓夢基金當臺灣走進世界我們也歡迎世界走進臺灣以上報告敬請各位委員持續給予本部支持與指教敬祝各位委員健康平安謝謝"},{"start":2624.534,"end":2650.874,"text":"好謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告我們現在就來進行詢答謝謝每位委員每位初期的委員質詢時間是10分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢時間是4分鐘本席再次的提醒因為今天時間是相當的充足所以請各位委員把握時間發言登記的截止時間是上午10點30分"},{"start":2652.975,"end":2669.684,"text":"委員若有臨時提案請在10點30分前提出並於本會委員范雲質詢結束後我們就另行處理處理提案的時候若提案的委員及聯署委員均不在場我們原例不予處理我們首先就請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員質詢好謝謝召會我們有請鄭部長好鄭部長"},{"start":2691.86,"end":2693.065,"text":"部長準備好了嗎?好 那我們就開始囉"},{"start":2698.137,"end":2724.507,"text":"部長,我想教育是百年大計也是國家的根本那您現在在這個時刻接下教育部長一職我相信接下的不是只有一個職位而是一個非常神聖的使命那您也說到上任要落實的第一件事情就是要在兩岸尊嚴對等的條件之下讓入生的學衛生來台那麼兩岸的青年恢復交流有助於了解彼此往好的方向發展,對嗎?"},{"start":2726.168,"end":2729.732,"text":"但是怎麼在今天的報告上面沒有看到你第一件想要落實的事情?根據我們看到媒體的報導"},{"start":2749.911,"end":2771.184,"text":"也就是說在明年的2月份我們對於陸生的碩博士就要來這個簡章公佈然後5月份就會放榜那對於這個陸生的學士班在5月份呢我們會簡章公佈7月份會放榜甚至於最快可能會7月份就來入學這是真的嗎是的我目前是朝跟委員報告我目前是朝這個方向在努力"},{"start":2771.789,"end":2772.209,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀列席"},{"start":2787.543,"end":2803.192,"text":"呼應賴慶德總統在就職演說來做一個政治性的演出為什麼本席這樣說呢因為其實在109年的時候呢其實陸方就已經公告暫停陸生來台那這個我相信部長您一定知道那在這段時間當中"},{"start":2804.513,"end":2814.083,"text":"過去我們蔡英文政府時代我們的部長不是沒有努力過他們也曾經多次的呼籲想進各種的管道那麼希望對岸能夠重新來開放陸生來台但是都是溝通無效同時對岸已讀不回"},{"start":2819.588,"end":2836.779,"text":"那所以呢現在您這麼有把握而且呢連時程點做法都出來了那是不是現在我們已經開始進行溝通了對岸有開始回了嗎而這件事情應該是一個雙向的事情它不是一個單一的意願所以呢部長您現在是怎麼看待這樣的事情"},{"start":2837.579,"end":2858.376,"text":"是的謝謝委員的一個關心我想我們在跟陸委會在這個部分我們事實上在合作的那我也同意委員過去確實不管基於什麼樣的一個原因但是能夠讓兩岸有更和平和協的一些發展互動我想"},{"start":2859.036,"end":2872.705,"text":"特別是在教育這一個區塊我們還是希望讓年輕人有更多的彼此透過學習、交流往好的那一個方面來發展我想這個訊息出來我們很多大學端的這個校長啊教授啊其實都非常樂見喔那但是呢他們也都是保持這個審慎樂觀的態度在看待因為還是那一句老話這個是雙向的喔這不是單向哪一方可以一廂情願就可以達成的喔"},{"start":2888.175,"end":2914.486,"text":"所以其實連本席我們都是非常支持也非常樂見那當然因為就像部長剛剛講的我們希望兩岸的年輕人恢復交流那兩岸之間可以從教育開始有一個好的一個發展那這個是我們有的共識那當然另外一個也是因為這幾年我們看到台灣少子化那所以呢教育部其實也推動一個國際產業人才教育專班也就是心情專班那部長剛剛上任我想應該也知道啦因為這個是非常重要的一個政策"},{"start":2915.026,"end":2918.108,"text":"這是希望我們在113年到116年能夠招到18568名外籍生啦18000名左右但是我們看到其實過去我們兩岸其實在非常和諧的交流跟發展的時候陸生在台灣累積在台灣的人數就高達了41975人而現在大概剩下一成左右所以我們看到這個數字本是要講其實如果能夠真的"},{"start":2943.422,"end":2971.976,"text":"大家好好溝通能夠開放陸生來台你看我們那麼辛苦做一個心情專班也不會要招一萬八千多個這個學生而陸生在我們這個狀況最好的時候我們看到在巔峰四萬一千多個人我相信這個數字要給這個部長做一個參考那另外當然同時提醒部長我想從2011年開始事實上我們也持續做了很多檢討放寬陸生來台各項很有善很便利的措施非常多項十幾項"},{"start":2973.297,"end":2991.207,"text":"那這些友善的措施部長你都知道是哪些嗎?你只要回答我知不知道就好知道嗎?好那既然我們開放這麼多這個友善便利的措施那為什麼這四五年以來始終啊陸方還是沒有辦法去開放陸生來台那真正的原因您認為是什麼?"},{"start":2993.336,"end":3008.336,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3009.056,"end":3031.768,"text":"但部長彭希要提醒您啊如果你不方便或是不宜或是甚至於不知道為什麼這問題很嚴重欸那你怎麼對症效要你怎麼說你怎麼能夠說我現在什麼明年的五月明年五月學士班就要這個招生呀什麼七月他們就要來啊你怎麼有辦法那麼肯定去對外公布這樣的事情你甚至於不知道為什麼我們有這麼多便利的措施給他們都不來"},{"start":3032.768,"end":3056.105,"text":"我不知道問題如何去解決問題我想跟委員報告事實上這些年來他會有比較明顯的一個這個停止雙方的一些這個學術或者這個學習上的交流主要我們知道在這幾年這幾年來事實上因為COVID的一個關係使得我們我剛才有看到您後面這一位不知道哪一位了"},{"start":3056.365,"end":3078.88,"text":"他的那個嘴形我有看到他提供給你這個答案這樣不好部長我想喔這個嘴形太明顯了啦那部長要有自己的想法跟思考但是呢看起來喔部長剛剛也其實有稍微脫口說了其實不方便我相信你有很多不方便可以去說明或者是猜想的一個地方喔但是本期要提醒你喔這個開放陸上來台既然啊賴清德總統在就職演說這麼重要的這個場所都在呼籲了喔"},{"start":3084.864,"end":3103.283,"text":"那過去蔡英文總統也呼籲賴清德總統也呼籲陸委會也呼籲過去的教育部也呼籲您又說這個是您上任最重要落實的但是啊本席要提醒不能只靠呼籲啊如果靠呼籲怎麼會過去這四五年來對方已讀不回啊所以呢您必須要知道真正問題點在哪裡好嗎"},{"start":3104.104,"end":3105.505,"text":"這樣才能夠明年我們可以看到真的這樣子一個這個宣誓是會有進展的那當然我們再來討論我想這20年來我們在談的就是教改我們的孩子不斷的被教改我們的老師不斷的被迫"},{"start":3120.773,"end":3131.582,"text":"調適一次又一次適應教改的新的制度我們要知道老師孩子跟家長真的非常的辛苦在這20年當中那部長您曾經參與過審議108課綱那所以呢我們來稍微討論一下108課綱眾多面向問題當中的一兩項那在過去的5年當中"},{"start":3138.288,"end":3151.016,"text":"您認為這個學習歷程檔案這個制度有沒有達成我們原本希望幫孩子進行生涯探索還有減輕孩子升學壓力準備這些資料的目標您認為有達到嗎"},{"start":3154.329,"end":3170.97,"text":"我想那個方向是有價值的但是在執行的過程難免會有一些考慮不周延的我想我們應該肯定就一個年輕學子他們的學習過程裡邊那個學習歷程檔案他的一個價值性"},{"start":3171.811,"end":3176.455,"text":"我相信任何一個制度提出來一定他利益良善也有價值性但是我們來看根據我們學生團體提出來2024年108課綱的觀察報告經過調查竟然有高達56.7%的學生"},{"start":3186.522,"end":3199.425,"text":"他希望這個學習歷程檔案是能夠符合他申請的科系所以他一直朝著這個特定方向去做一個準備所以另外還有55.41%的學生認為製作學習歷程檔案是無助於生涯探索的所以剛剛這個數據顯現一個什麼樣的結果呢就是我們學習歷程檔案再度成為新的升學工具了"},{"start":3211.028,"end":3211.429,"text":"陳.我剛才跟委員報告的"},{"start":3229.93,"end":3257.219,"text":"這一個學習歷程檔案它確實是有價值的但是怎麼樣去讓高中生更清楚然後減少他們不必要的一些擔憂這是我們要來努力的好 要努力的地方真的還蠻多的那我想過去我們在學習歷程檔案之前叫備審資料那我們都知道備審資料每次到高三的時候大家一窩蜂的才來擠來做把過去的資料把它找出來"},{"start":3257.979,"end":3282.095,"text":"甚至於發生了很多代寫甚至於作為商品買賣在備審資料的時候那現在呢我們希望來分散這個壓力所以在高一高二高三然後陸陸續續來做可是我們看到高一高二的學生四個學期他有沒有能力可以把這個學期立正答案做得很好再來他的志向跟志趣在高一高二就一定能夠定下而不改變嗎"},{"start":3283.456,"end":3297.193,"text":"我相信部長你來自這個大學端喔你一定知道其實到了高三也許有些孩子他的志趣改變了他發現他的這個興趣在另外的地方了這時候不能更改啊這時候不能更改那有沒有辦法可以解套這樣的一件事情"},{"start":3298.81,"end":3309.695,"text":"我想我非常同意委員剛才所提的學生在生涯的一個發展裡邊任何一個時刻都有可能因為學習的一個經驗對那所以我們可以調整嗎他的興趣可能會改變我想這個細部我這個會後我來更進一步瞭解我看怎麼樣來做一些可以微調或者怎麼樣來好謝謝部長"},{"start":3323.321,"end":3344.779,"text":"最後另外還有一個我想108課剛我們還在講多元選修的課程這件事情但我們卻發現根據立法院112年中央政府總預算案整體的評估報告當中指出我們普通高中多元學習選修的課程實際的開課數竟然不到計劃開課數的七成也就是說有三成多是沒有依照計劃開課這個現象部長應該也曉得那麼為什麼會這樣原因您知道嗎"},{"start":3352.773,"end":3353.013,"text":"好部長我想喔"},{"start":3367.853,"end":3385.946,"text":"您有答對我想失之不足這件事情很嚴重所以我們希望會後部長能不能夠去了解一下我們目前開課數是持續下降失之不足的地方大小不平均的資源到什麼程度我希望能夠部長了解以後能夠跟本席做一個說明那最後我們談108課綱的問題是非常多上路五年了我們必須要講在準備上面"},{"start":3392.771,"end":3397.412,"text":"對於像這個秩序未定的孩子們你一次要他定下來我覺得那個壓力很大第二個到了以前說這個學期定成檔案是高山才做可是事實上現在是軍備競賽的延長賽那再來呢我們採用現在還是以分數為導向"},{"start":3409.176,"end":3429.472,"text":"因為我們要知道第一階段沒有達到一個標準第二階段教授根本不可能看到我們學習歷程檔案做了他的目的在哪裡最後我想你有沒有發現一件事情我們現在學用落差一樣非常嚴重如果學習歷程檔案是有辦法探索我們這個學生的這個秩序的話學用落差就不會那麼嚴重了我期許部長在118課綱我們馬上114年就要檢討了我們可以把這些問題都帶進去然後在118課綱的時候我們來審慎的評估思考好不好"},{"start":3438.679,"end":3447.523,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員的關心謝謝,好謝謝萬美玲委員時間很準時接下來我們請登記發言第二位的陳佩玉委員好謝謝主席我們一定會準時那有請部長還有張亮次長還有葉次長謝謝好我們請鄭部長還有兩位次長謝謝"},{"start":3471.976,"end":3472.116,"text":"一人30秒"},{"start":3491.244,"end":3510.959,"text":"謝謝委員 事實上我上來 我想我本身學教育 我一直看到了我們事實上大家共同在努力為台灣培養人才 有一個更具有競爭力的一個人才 不管是產業或者他生涯的發展能夠在國際上能夠發光發射 但是我"},{"start":3512.619,"end":3531.749,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3535.489,"end":3544.158,"text":"聽起來我聽到部長有滿滿的人文關懷而且你把其中非常重要的三個角色老師家長學生都提到了所以謝謝部長那可不可以先把時間給兩位次長謝謝各30秒謝謝"},{"start":3547.636,"end":3573.764,"text":"好謝謝委員我想我來到這邊我過去大家都知道我在教育文化委員會那我負責督導國教跟體育的方面那四肢培育也是那我希望將來有機會進入到教育部之後把過去我所了解的理念能夠逐步的落實配合教育部的政策剛才部長講了非常多那委員也有很多指教那我也希望教育部能夠我能夠"},{"start":3576.185,"end":3591.925,"text":"聽到更多的反應然後來協助部長來推動整個這個包括國教方面我們講到108課綱的落實素養教育等等然後體育屬這個升格為體育部的事情我也會特別特別的來加速協調跟推動謝謝"},{"start":3593.467,"end":3610.645,"text":"好 謝謝張亮次長你剛剛講到說你希望聽到更多的聲音我相信這也是所有人對您的期待還有你剛剛講到體育署要升級這件事情這個部分我覺得大家更期待也許是您有機會直接擔任部長我覺得是更多人的想望接下來歡迎麻煩次長謝謝葉次長"},{"start":3612.546,"end":3634.863,"text":"謝謝委員我想就是說在這個少子化的臺灣我們覺得現在的臺灣其實我們特別在產業的發展上面其實是蠻欠缺人才的那怎樣在少子化的臺灣可以讓臺灣有更多的人才這是我覺得是我這一次會想要加入教育部的一個大原因特別是過去因為我自己在大學然後自己又出來創業我發現就是說因為有這兩邊的"},{"start":3636.124,"end":3655.483,"text":"我發現在大學裡面對產業真的瞭解的這個學校的老師或是學生這方面其實並不是很多所以我未來我希望說我們能夠怎麼樣來做好這個橋接大學跟企業解決學用落差這件事情讓少子化台灣未來的發展不會欠缺人才我想這是我未來會很努力的目標"},{"start":3656.704,"end":3680.609,"text":"謝謝葉副部長我剛剛聽到您說的重點就產業跟學界之間的合作這件事情我想大家都非常期待好那有先先請兩位次長請回謝謝也謝謝你們的回覆我相信大家都非常期待兩位次長還有新部長那第一個想跟部長您談一下關於行政減量這件事情其實我們教育部已經喊了很多年那可是現場的困境是這樣的跟著跟部長您分享這個是新北市的某一所國小"},{"start":3681.089,"end":3699.376,"text":"他們的日常的委員會就有這麼多而且這個編制是因為所有的新課綱或是所有的行政的督導導致於每一個學校必須有這麼多委員會而這些委員會當然所組成的委員裡面就必然有老師可是我要講這些都不含老師日常的教學"},{"start":3700.396,"end":3724.748,"text":"拜課還有跟家長之間的互動甚至還要處理班級經營或者是學生的很多日常的突發狀況只光是國小的部分就這樣我們來看一下國中更慘43個為什麼我說更慘呢因為很多國中生的教學還有跟家長的互動其實那個日常的負荷量其實是非常非常大的那光是把委員會列出來就這麼多而且這個是學校老師整理給我們作為參考我想要問部長"},{"start":3727.009,"end":3736.527,"text":"我們到底該怎麼做到行政減量這件事情甚至到最近都還有投書現場老師對於行政減量是非常非常非常無感的到底我們可以怎麼做這件事情"},{"start":3738.808,"end":3759.224,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,確實我在上個禮拜在聽各部會的各司處的一些工作報告我也非常理解來自於基層第一線上國中小老師跟甚至行政這些主任校長他們也深感到這個行政"},{"start":3759.684,"end":3760.265,"text":"議員提供的報告"},{"start":3774.721,"end":3774.821,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3799.855,"end":3818.971,"text":"教學的一個專業裡邊盡量能夠從專業的一個教學去協助我們新世代這個不管小學生或者年輕人的一些學習回到一個教育的一個更好的一個教學的一個品質"},{"start":3819.591,"end":3837.32,"text":"好,因為我時間有限但是我已經聽到部長您是第一時間就有關心這件事情而且您也做了相關的指示那我們非常期待後續的調整我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是我就快速再跟部長分享另外一個狀況除了教育部可以有非常多的公文跟非常多的行政指導給學校之外"},{"start":3837.74,"end":3857.772,"text":"甚至很多跨部會的公文認為有些議題必須要學校配合辦理的例如說國防教育、食農教育很多跨部會的他們就直接把公文呢就透過教育部直接再轉給學校單位對學校來說他就必須要把那個成績的量能做出來或者是那個業務執行的成果做出來對很多老師來說這真的是"},{"start":3858.172,"end":3858.192,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":3877.642,"end":3904.451,"text":"好,那下一個部分我想要談關於閱讀作為一種方法的可能我們可以看一下這張投影片在告訴我們有文化資本跟兒童智慧量的研究也就是說到了3這相關的數字是家裡的文化資本越高的小孩相關的智慧量在3歲以前的累積相關的差距不會太大可是年紀越大或者是跟著孩子走進學校之後相關的學術科目的學習成績會落差越來越大"},{"start":3905.131,"end":3926.186,"text":"我相信部長您來自第一線教育現場你一定知道這個狀況所以我非常感謝教育部過往推出的所謂閱推計劃還有明日閱讀這是教育部裡面唯二兩個特殊的專案關於閱讀可是過往我自己要說很多對於閱讀的想像都認為它只是學術科目以外的外加但是部長我要告訴你根據108課綱底下素養的出題方法"},{"start":3928.968,"end":3944.377,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3944.497,"end":3944.537,"text":"拜託部長："},{"start":3967.654,"end":3990.592,"text":"去學習這些學習科目而不是回到我們以前小時候不會就一直練不會就一直寫不會就一直讀其實是沒有用的甚至要透過AI家教我也都沒有意見可是我要問的是從來沒有人好好教這些小孩所謂學習方法這件事情真的只會讓文化資源的落差表現在學術科目學習上是越差越大"},{"start":3991.152,"end":3996.218,"text":"我相信部長你一定深有同感那我也想要在這邊拜託部長那我就不再談這麼多閱讀教育老師的困境可是我們確實感謝教育部從去年修了國教法有相關的預算每年可以有買書相關的調整可是我要說更多還有在閱讀教育現場這件事情"},{"start":4008.232,"end":4035.246,"text":"還有很多沒有做到的但我時間有限我們之後會再跟國教署討論但是我要再次強調閱讀作為一種學習方法它真的已經是這個世代的小孩必然需要的工具它不能再只是把它認為是一種主要學習科目以外的風華學院我要再次強調這件事情也已經很多學者專家告訴我們這件事情我相信國教院一定有相關的研究也請部長積極跟國教院保持討論好嗎"},{"start":4036.898,"end":4040.722,"text":"關於特教的部分也是很多委員一直關心那我辦公室呢過去一整年跟很多特教老師特教現場的"},{"start":4054.195,"end":4054.215,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":4073.985,"end":4090.469,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4090.776,"end":4107.944,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4108.104,"end":4123.461,"text":"所以空間的不足人力的不足經費的不足造成普特融合現場的困境越來越多我我絕對要說我絕對贊成普特融合可是在普特融合大理念之下現場老師的困境必須要被教育部看見必須要被國教署聽見"},{"start":4124.482,"end":4150.152,"text":"這個部分我覺得還有很多可以討論的部分也想要拜託部長後續持續在特教的議題上非常多千頭萬緒請拜託一起關心所以我們關於這個分散式資源班我們現在這邊提出有沒有可能朝一班一師一教室甚至充實相關教育經費還有五年內朝向當時修法最後說一比八邁進我覺得這是一個困難的事情但是我們必須要積極放在心上這可不可以請部長快速回應一下"},{"start":4151.272,"end":4165.391,"text":"我想這一個部分普特的融合這是我們希望這個也是有價值的必然要走的那怎麼樣讓老師在同一個空間裡邊透過這個分組的教學能不會"},{"start":4166.932,"end":4187.101,"text":"部長可是就在同一個空間有困難啦部長你自己在現場教過如果我今天教國文然後這個小孩過動這樣我教他國文可是隔壁同一個空間裡面而且學校教室就這麼小不像我們這邊這麼大欸我覺得關於空間這件事情其實少子化除了很多明星學校之外很擠的學校之外其實很多學校都開始有相關空間釋出了"},{"start":4188.562,"end":4199.044,"text":"但是可能在學校的行政端他們沒有意識到這些特教老師在現場教學的困難所以我想部長我們絕對不要說我們認同同一個空間我覺得這個有很大的教學上的問題"},{"start":4200.117,"end":4203.081,"text":"我們來進一步來瞭解看怎麼樣來做一些調整。"},{"start":4220.101,"end":4241.298,"text":"次長您過去在擔任立委的時候您非常關心相關臺中的教育發展文化體育發展非常謝謝次長我想要先談一下關於臺中中心堂的部分那一直到最近我們聽到有可能有一些調整跟改變可是困境是其實臺體大接手之後關閉中心堂限制到目前為止其實很多地方人士我相信還有黃國書委員也都做過勘查"},{"start":4243.339,"end":4267.792,"text":"現在目前為止你覺得在這個題目上有沒有什麼可能性因為我自己觀察有台中歌劇院之後其實新的場地排擠了舊的場地或者是很多小型的民間表演藝術團體他們認為他們可以申請像這樣小型的場地像是大家一直想要學的韓國韓國確實有很多中小型的場地被活絡使用大家不用都去舉歌劇院所以我也想要問一下次長您身為台中出生的立委"},{"start":4268.092,"end":4280.851,"text":"你對於這一題目前你們有沒有什麼規劃有沒有機會邀請跨部會做一些討論跟協調對謝謝委員的關心我想有關中興堂因為他在他的這個土地所有權他是市政府那後來輾轉的這個使用"},{"start":4283.695,"end":4300.584,"text":"其實很多單位都使用過我想委員很了解包括我們國台教也用過那2012年之後呢又回歸給這個台體大那台體大它畢竟是一個學校它對這個文化場館的運用事實上也沒有多餘的經費跟人力跟人才所以後來呢"},{"start":4302.125,"end":4325.931,"text":"在初屆的過程裡面發生了一些狀況那也因為安全的因素所以後來呢他就是換會那當然在地方的民意代表跟市政府的關心下那目前也在做一些這個研究那初步當然也有委員說可以來做電競使用不過我想他中心堂要怎麼使用我想我們還是尊重地方的市政府的所有權"},{"start":4326.431,"end":4326.551,"text":"謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":4356.857,"end":4359.821,"text":"我們接下來請侯孟楷委員主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好請部長"},{"start":4374.537,"end":4396.657,"text":"好部長早齁您剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經"},{"start":4398.208,"end":4413.245,"text":"有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎"},{"start":4416.687,"end":4417.567,"text":"所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話"},{"start":4446.903,"end":4447.904,"text":"政治黑手或是任何政治意義都應該介入"},{"start":4463.022,"end":4473.189,"text":"基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術既有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理"},{"start":4486.897,"end":4508.998,"text":"也因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好"},{"start":4510.279,"end":4525.771,"text":"那部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱"},{"start":4528.498,"end":4555.452,"text":"學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過"},{"start":4556.963,"end":4567.58,"text":"如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬"},{"start":4571.049,"end":4571.069,"text":"部長"},{"start":4593.499,"end":4613.105,"text":"要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多"},{"start":4614.205,"end":4628.038,"text":"我們要不要查一下現在打學習天人檔案google一下有沒有這種行情架確實的行情我並不清楚因為我來自大學我們當然也在大學裡面聽到一些系所教授他們事實上有講過"},{"start":4629.039,"end":4629.779,"text":"部長你講的都非常好"},{"start":4657.692,"end":4677.722,"text":"這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括...宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買"},{"start":4679.056,"end":4687.922,"text":"多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎部長比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及但是既然您上任是不是能夠在"},{"start":4710.759,"end":4737.936,"text":"這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案本席沒有說這樣的政策一定要廢除或怎麼樣但是當利大於弊或弊大於利的時候代表有相關的弊端而我們要做的就是怎麼樣讓它精進更檢討更好這能夠做到嗎"},{"start":4739.337,"end":4763.553,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員的一個關心這個方向確實也是我們在努力的好三個月內是不是能夠針對學習生檔案來做一個檢討我想我們來努力好謝謝部長部長拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸森來台對不對恢復陸森來台確實這一點我必須要"},{"start":4768.536,"end":4796.693,"text":"就責一下整部教育部業務報告那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼"},{"start":4797.782,"end":4813.894,"text":"如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告"},{"start":4814.835,"end":4835.964,"text":"您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我會想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了"},{"start":4838.783,"end":4842.792,"text":"應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個"},{"start":4850.678,"end":4874.406,"text":"本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎?能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎?"},{"start":4875.666,"end":4901.596,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年"},{"start":4903.217,"end":4931.256,"text":"有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧"},{"start":4932.492,"end":4939.776,"text":"所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰?我想我們會努力我們會努力"},{"start":4957.11,"end":4960.151,"text":"部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費"},{"start":4982.742,"end":4998.07,"text":"但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位"},{"start":5000.307,"end":5022.865,"text":"一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中執免學費一視同仁嗎"},{"start":5023.886,"end":5046.121,"text":"台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金德總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職"},{"start":5047.995,"end":5068.663,"text":"部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本學資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間"},{"start":5070.305,"end":5076.977,"text":"要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定那"},{"start":5079.818,"end":5082.921,"text":"本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼"},{"start":5108.174,"end":5134.36,"text":"我想只要這個就政策的大方向我們是樂觀其成樂觀其成怎麼樣就是說在未來在能夠兼顧這一個這個社會公共性我們希望能夠朝那一個一體適用免學雜費的一個方向來努力就是高中職既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了"},{"start":5135.236,"end":5160.564,"text":"那您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我是不是我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼"},{"start":5162.486,"end":5176.876,"text":"因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦當然就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說"},{"start":5178.277,"end":5202.643,"text":"這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎"},{"start":5204.071,"end":5204.211,"text":"能夠做檢討"},{"start":5238.902,"end":5239.102,"text":"政務部長"},{"start":5254.651,"end":5261.734,"text":"好部長好來部長我想在你之前歷任教育部長當中杜政聖可以說是我們認為政治性格是最強烈的而且他爭議的非常的大我們回想過去他所對於教育做的政策當中大概就是他把台灣的地圖倒過來看監除非常大的一個本土化那我必須要說你過去對我們的印象來說也是政治立場非常鮮明的那我覺得這是你個人的政治理念"},{"start":5281.641,"end":5282.001,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀"},{"start":5304.309,"end":5328.874,"text":"我想身為一個教育人跟委員報告我只關心台灣的教育怎麼更好然後怎麼樣從專業我一直從過去一路以來在談教育的時候在談人才培育只有從專業我也特別在這一次在上個禮拜在跟我們師處聽這個業務簡報的時候所有的東西一定要找對的人然後回到專業"},{"start":5330.535,"end":5348.295,"text":"我希望部長就是能夠是如此的就是以教育為一個本業不要有太多政治的一個立場為什麼呢因為就誠如剛剛侯孟凱委員提到的當初的卡管案真的是讓我們的高教受到非常嚴重的傷害那部長你是有百分之百願意捍衛大學的自主"},{"start":5349.397,"end":5367.966,"text":"你絕對是捍衛大學的自主因為非常的簡單因為我們在2018年7月的時候曾經有14個那時候是現任的公立大學成立了全國大學自主聯盟他們願意站出來痛批教育部來破壞大學自主所以很多人願意站出來聲援管中你"},{"start":5368.826,"end":5382.332,"text":"所以這件事情呢其實我必須要說剛剛洪孟凱特別提到的周竺英他也是我政大的學姐所以你也是我政大的學長他是在幫你他在幫你你雖然說你不負記憶但是他只是告訴你說你當年沒有站出來但是你私下還是認為這個教育部這樣的一個涉入大學是不對的所以你應該謝謝他嘛對不對部長"},{"start":5393.925,"end":5415.09,"text":"大學很重要的就是大家能夠自由的分享許多對於教育的理念我不會問你如果你當年是教育部長會不會比較好我還是強調一貫的做法教育不應該涉入人格政治大學要絕對的制住你來自大學你應該很清楚這樣的概念我們會希望你能夠一柄出眾這樣可以做得到吧"},{"start":5416.335,"end":5442.787,"text":"這是我的承諾這是你的承諾很好我們接下來開始討論一下大家非常關切的一個雙語教育因為我們的賴總統他是目標是在2030年時候呢他要讓台灣變成雙語的國家那他也花了100億但是呢部長你也知道嘛雙語的是亂象重生越生再到但是賴總統還是質疑這個他的個性是非常的關心非常的new那你在中山大學是非常配合政府的雙語的政策"},{"start":5444.028,"end":5444.77,"text":"那你真的認為2030台灣可以變成雙語國家嗎?"},{"start":5449.96,"end":5478.805,"text":"我覺得議員的一個學習特別要成為一個官方的議員他不是那麼容易所以2030年我覺得在整個政策就是說如何讓我們的新世代年輕人能夠有國際這個直接能夠跟國際接軌的這些不管從產業或者移動的能力我想那個方向是是正確的但是他變成2030年我也同意主席所講你我我們都很清楚他可能要有"},{"start":5479.505,"end":5491.91,"text":"而更長的一個時間但是從現在開始做如果他要走30年那現在不做你未來還是得要30年2030年到距離現在只有五六年的時間所以不要把這個時間掐在2030年因為目前來說的話"},{"start":5498.212,"end":5514.966,"text":"真的是部長你應該很清楚太多學者專家包括高教包括去外語學院包括英文系的這樣的一個背景出身的人他說真的是這麼樣的一個政策啊政策完全沒有經過思考完全是做出非常到著火入魔而且雙語教育真的會成為國王的新衣啊"},{"start":5518.109,"end":5522.011,"text":"然後呢我也很驚訝的目前為止我們去年9月這個賴總統特別表示他是執行出了問題要形成國家團隊用更包容的方式來推動雙語教育我真的是聽不太懂請問部長你是未來的執行單位什麼叫做更包容的方法來推廣雙語教育你可不可以幫我解釋一下"},{"start":5541.186,"end":5541.226,"text":"副部長"},{"start":5556.346,"end":5556.366,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":5576.98,"end":5601.231,"text":"本土語言之三項課程之外的其他的領域你還告訴我們要落實中小學才全英語的教課你這個16月所講的要用英語教藝術英語教體育英語教數學有可能嗎部長我們現在距離2030年只剩下6年的時間你認為我們現在有辦法做到這一些事情嗎如果沒有辦法你是執行者你要給賴總統什麼樣的建議啊"},{"start":5603.103,"end":5615.214,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心大家都肯定雙贏的一個教育在人才培育是重要的但是我也同意我們怎麼樣針對過去的一個政策做滾動式的修正這個2030年看起來以現在來看它確實包含失資或者偏城鄉的一個它是有落差的它是有問題的它根本做不到而且部長你剛點出來的失資"},{"start":5629.687,"end":5634.652,"text":"77%的縣市根本就是本國的獅子不一樣嘛然後呢你知道最大的一個問題是什麼因為我們雙語政策在108課綱上路之後才中間跳出來了配合那時候行政院長特別提到的他根本不在我們的課綱的規劃的表定的規劃上面嘛你突然冒出來你卻以既有的十年大計的這個課綱當中你怎麼樣來落實你怎麼跟課綱來做一個並存"},{"start":5654.13,"end":5669.201,"text":"我覺得這是個很大的問題而且我想在場的人都知道永遠要教育部比補貼人力私自部主英語教育是你師父領進門學生要有十足的動機不要動不動有老師教有課程牌你再去學英文這是永遠不夠部長你同意吧"},{"start":5670.922,"end":5695.731,"text":"那目前我們整個教育的一個現場裏面根本沒有讓孩子可以有自主學習目前有那麼多的平台他可以自主去學習這點還是沒有辦法做到我們有很多輔助的工具就是整個課程的一個教法完全沒有辦法而且呢你看你現在把這個政大我還特別給你提到政大中正很多頂大的他的英英檢的畢業門檻都取消這是大學裏面自己做決定的但是他們一向的認為說終極檢定完全不妨礙成為頂大學生該具備的"},{"start":5700.733,"end":5700.893,"text":"部長,我說得對嗎?"},{"start":5719.81,"end":5719.99,"text":"永遠怎麼補永遠怎麼貼是不夠的"},{"start":5747.805,"end":5754.287,"text":"孩子學習的動機給他一個東西他就有辦法好好的發展現在我們的教育系統完全沒有這一套你同意嗎"},{"start":5755.947,"end":5784.767,"text":"應該說我們來努力我們也看到地方政府確實在教師徵是出現了一些我們不希望的一個這個教師徵選的一個方式本來就是部長我跟你說了為了各大學裡面也常常都是這樣的連像教職人員為了配合教育部的這種什麼雙語然後要讓他們的卓越計畫可以寫得很好深耕計畫寫得好還跟你報告所有的這個教職員工說實在的英語畢業都比一般人來得更容易進去為什麼因為他都有英文門檻"},{"start":5785.487,"end":5785.507,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":5806.776,"end":5825.418,"text":"這個是你最快時間能夠了解目前英語雙語教育政策最好我還特別給你打包票2030年賴總統的雙語教育絕對沒有辦法達到因為只有6年的時間你有太多事情要補足了最後我想我要就較於你剛剛所提到的大家都會關心陸生來台因為我自己在大學教書我很清楚"},{"start":5826.679,"end":5831.522,"text":"這個也的確是你在書面報告當中你沒有提到有關陸生的這個部分你剛才已經承認這可能是你們太忙疏失了但我要告訴部長一個數據112年這個陸生學士班已經快接近清零的階段了我們現在從頭到尾加在一起說實在的"},{"start":5847.01,"end":5869.116,"text":"這個連續四年停招你如果要在明年開放的話我覺得還有一大段路的要走因為整個學士班而且目前為止研修生大概只剩下2500人520之後可能會更加的慘烈這可能要拿出非常多的一個策略跟一個方法而且我自己在大學裡面我說實在我看到我的研究生其實來自一些大陸的我根本不管他是來自哪裡可是成果相當的不錯"},{"start":5870.896,"end":5875.17,"text":"但是我要找他當研究助理想要付獎學金都沒有機會那是因為我們的政策部長你覺得這樣公平嗎"},{"start":5878.998,"end":5906.859,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們現在是可以擔任學校的也可以領獎學金也可以擔任我是覺得像學校的公讀這些東西我覺得是不要去管目前是被允許的我們有很多地方是跟一般的港澳學生比起來其實陸生他們一些條件上還是會被限縮的這還是有被限縮的我沒有特別幫他們講但是我覺得用人為財學生有意願到台灣來做一個學習應該給他更公平的機會因為我自己說要準時所以我一定要"},{"start":5907.259,"end":5919.034,"text":"問快一點喔然後呢最重要是兩岸高教部長你也知道高教的交流是非常的重要的但是呢2021年清大的清華海峽研究院的被嚴查那個時候呢"},{"start":5920.049,"end":5923.611,"text":"現在的這個國客會的主委吳承文就是當年清大的副校長他那個時候就完全覺得目前講起來還是覺得委屈啊因為被抹紅嘛被認為到現在這個寒蟬相應目前為止還是有那目前為止呢一個月來根本不到一個學者他們認為官方卡得很兇我只問最後一句話目前來說的話鄭部長你的態度你會用滲透跟統戰的觀點來看待兩岸的學術交流嗎"},{"start":5948.015,"end":5950.938,"text":"我們都很清楚學術就在專業上來做一個討論可是現在完完全全變一個非常單純的一個事件只要跟對岸有任何的一個關聯度的話大家就用非常多的不同的方法"},{"start":5972.819,"end":5974.06,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教我想這個是方向是不用質疑的好 謝謝"},{"start":6017.418,"end":6019.961,"text":"好,接下來我們請丁倩琦委員好,謝謝張偉,我們有請鄭部長好,我們請鄭部長"},{"start":6039.416,"end":6065.267,"text":"部長您好首先恭喜您今天是您第一次到立法院來備詢我是國民黨的立法委員林倩琦首先歡迎你也希望你能夠在未來的日子裡面來幫助我們來協助我們解決目前整個教育界所面臨的困境並加以檢視調整然後將一些東西拉回正軌"},{"start":6067.228,"end":6084.909,"text":"接下來我有五點的看法與建議這個是我今天的主軸也是未來在其中有四點都是賴總統的政見第一點是我這邊所提出來的很重要的一點這個是我這邊本席這邊提出來的"},{"start":6087.062,"end":6104.93,"text":"您上回來拜會的時候我們其實也討論過一些教育相關的這個問題所以目前在這個即職教育這個部分我這邊提出一個創造並推動16年即職國民教育的這樣一個概念那這個概念是來自於"},{"start":6105.41,"end":6121.961,"text":"我們在最近的這個私校的倒閉喔那像骨牌效應一樣的這個發生那裡面當然有很多問題啦我們被告知都是少子化的一個衝擊然後在地就學其實也產生一些危機那很重要一點就是在"},{"start":6122.862,"end":6149.482,"text":"很多計職院校或者是某一些學校在基本上從一進入這個學校就背負了就學貸款的起點那我這個部分想要透過政策來引導學生的一個適性發展跟為產業的人才來做培育所以這邊目前我們的氛圍就是失教的這個倒閉潮很像骨牌效應但是我們現在看到的就是該倒的就讓他倒"},{"start":6150.222,"end":6179.014,"text":"然後還有一個輔導這個輔導機制啊那個這輔了就導所以那個我們知道這個專案輔導學校啊輔導就導啊該導就讓他導那這種氛圍變成善心人士想要給予跟投入跟救某一些學校那會變成被禿鷹式的看待那感覺上好像其他人都很無能那只有我們制定政策就必須一直往前衝一直往前走"},{"start":6180.647,"end":6196.985,"text":"這個部分我覺得對許多學校來講是有點不太恰當而且不太公平所以我這邊提出幾點就是少子化的衝擊其實我們已經看到很久了那到底怎麼處理這個部分怎麼處理少子化的衝擊"},{"start":6201.038,"end":6215.479,"text":"我們在過去的政策裡面把這個武專的消除結果變成是優質的武專被迫減班然後劣質的高職被升格成武專那很多的這個武專就變成某一些"},{"start":6216.536,"end":6235.845,"text":"議席大專院校感覺上劣幣驅逐良幣那這個部分其實有很多的不公義那接下來呢如果繼續少子化下去再不用20年那我想您這邊也知道每個人都可以念國立大學那我們全面的崩壞大概也是值日可待的"},{"start":6236.445,"end":6248.356,"text":"所以這個部分我們可不可以更積極一點那我這邊提出來就是讓我們的計職院校能夠以國民教育的方式做延伸那過去是怎麼回事呢就是計職院校原本的12年的國民基本教育是兩個階段那前九年呢是強迫入學那後三年是"},{"start":6260.729,"end":6275.749,"text":"的中等高等中學教育志願非強迫式的入學那高中職畢業之後能再增加第三階段就是這個是我的方法我們就增加四年計職教育用鼓勵入學的方式"},{"start":6276.63,"end":6303.017,"text":"然後也可以減少學生的負擔透過價格來引導學生然後讓學生透過技職教育真的能夠為台灣的產業儲備一些人才所以舊技職就等於舊產業舊產業就救了台灣所以透過技職的國民義務教育讓價格引導學生的分流讓人才為產業"},{"start":6307.062,"end":6331.648,"text":"來做累積在教育的這個部分那私校也可以藉由這個潮流來用順勢的方式得以留存那倒閉潮可以停止一些那這是我想我在先前就已經跟這個部長有提到的那今天提出一些具體的方法那接下來呢幾個就是賴總統的這個政見"},{"start":6342.446,"end":6353.893,"text":"您這邊提到開放學位陸生來台而且非常的精準談到了學位生那這邊學位生的部分我這邊也提出了一些說明跟建議"},{"start":6355.694,"end":6370.824,"text":"我們知道2020年其實因為疫情的關係那台灣五年來在陸生這個部分大概就不太就沒有再有連結所以我這邊談的其實很簡單我們要跨出這一步做就對了那我提出了五個具體的步驟"},{"start":6372.264,"end":6399.306,"text":"第一個就是請教育部先核定各大學的入生招生名額這是教育部可以做的第二個部分就對入生公告招生簡章這很具體第三個讓入生向學校提出入學申請那第四步這個部分如果能夠做成呢接下來我們就通過學校的篩選公告入取的名額跟名單"},{"start":6400.458,"end":6423.151,"text":"好那這四部結束之後呢就輪到陸委會來接手了那陸委會我們的這個邱淳正主委在金門大學那他應該有很多的經驗跟金大金門大學還有廈門大學廈大合作的經驗那這些是邱委員對不起邱主委的專業"},{"start":6424.632,"end":6448.023,"text":"我相信那在教育部跟陸委會的這個聯合之下那陸生來台而且學衛生來台應該是非常具體而且可以在您任內完成的這邊我替您把這個部分爬梳跟整理出來好那這個是陸生來台的部分那我們期待教育部能夠做到這一點那其實這個部分也可以解決很多現在"},{"start":6449.417,"end":6463.892,"text":"台灣學校的高校的一個困境所以當我們開放對岸的學業班的招生那其實學士生可以救私校博碩士生可以救公立學校"},{"start":6465.549,"end":6482.176,"text":"公立學校的研究能量是非常重要的如同剛才有幾位委員談到所以如果我們能夠善用陸生那麼就如同部長所講的讓兩岸的年輕人有更多健康互動的機會那我們善用陸生也對他們公平以待"},{"start":6483.081,"end":6505.946,"text":"我相信大家在一個尊重的原則之下都會有這個誠意讓我們彼此的學生能夠在我們所創造的平台有健康的交流所以這是一個多贏的局面這個是開放學衛生尤其是陸生這個部分我給教育部的具體建議接下來是體育運動發展部這個也是"},{"start":6511.645,"end":6530.702,"text":"內總統的政見而且兩個黨都已經有共識那我相信這一點如果在我們在更進一步而且很誠意的推動下我想這是一個共識極高的一個政策那我期待在您的任內能夠幫內總統把這個政策能夠創造跟完成"},{"start":6535.686,"end":6539.968,"text":"接下來有幾位委員做個提議可不可以請教育部也是您這邊所講的我們可不可以召開第9屆的全國教育會議從2010年上一屆"},{"start":6551.133,"end":6569.251,"text":"的這個全國教育會議舉辦完了之後呢到現在已經有14年沒有開了那在您這個賴總統上任就是已經成為準總統然後到真正就職之間那好多的教團都期待"},{"start":6569.872,"end":6599.872,"text":"﹚"},{"start":6602.413,"end":6625.446,"text":"最後一點您這邊其實提到培養前瞻的技術以及國際移動的人才我非常認同這一點前瞻技術的一個重點您這邊談到AI當然台灣本身就已經有這樣子的一個條件再加上如果您在這個技術層面在語言的技術層面能夠"},{"start":6626.667,"end":6627.568,"text":"在幾個階層怎麼的做法所以AI"},{"start":6652.906,"end":6674.6,"text":"進來您這邊說是我們全球民主的一個供應鏈那在這個平台上AI應該可以透過我們來推到全世界但是很重要的是那麼您要怎麼樣培養量子電腦機器人精準醫療方面的前瞻性人才然後如何培養國內的人才這點是非常重要的"},{"start":6675.12,"end":6686.591,"text":"因為我們知道很多人對於這個國際人才的這個部分有很多的想法那我們如何透過這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":6687.577,"end":6687.977,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6717.71,"end":6738.771,"text":"實驗的過程當中有很多需要處理跟解決的問題所以請把視野拉回來積極專業並利用專案來全力培育國內的人才那以上幾點是我對鄭部長所領導的教育部未來的一些建議跟看法"},{"start":6739.492,"end":6757.952,"text":"我期待在您的任內尤其是高教出身的您能夠從很高的視野而且還當過校長我相信您一定能夠從你的視野把我們各階層的教育帶到一個正軌讓我們對教育再次充滿希望跟期待謝謝部長"},{"start":6759.687,"end":6760.488,"text":"好,接下來我們請葉元芝委員"},{"start":6797.29,"end":6797.994,"text":"麻煩請教育部長謝謝好請鄭部長"},{"start":6806.124,"end":6831.955,"text":"委員好部長好第一次見面因為教育部的業務非常龐雜千頭萬緒每一項都非常重要所以今天只有12分鐘可能也沒辦法問太細那就針對部長您自己提到的幾個優先順序要做來跟您請教第一個放在你的首位的就是您希望在兩岸平等尊嚴情況之下讓大陸學會生來台但是非常遺憾在你們的業務報告裡面完全沒有看到這個部分"},{"start":6832.515,"end":6841.423,"text":"不知道是故意的是不是最近有變化還是有受到賴總統壓力還是怎麼樣否則為什麼之前受訪提到這個是第一件事情但是現在業務報告卻沒有提到謝謝委員的一個關心我想這是我個人的一個疏忽所以是疏忽不是說受到壓力所以不能講所以還是要推就對了那現在具體來說要怎麼開訪"},{"start":6860.373,"end":6881.479,"text":"我們現在事實上以目前的辦法因為我們也知道在COVID之前連續有三四年確實是兩岸就變成這個學衛生就騎乘上是怎樣騎乘上騎乘我們希望說學衛生做博士班大概在明年二月的這一個檢張出來五月就可以決定然後"},{"start":6882.299,"end":6910.605,"text":"五月決定所以你現在是會有名額限制嗎還是讓各大學自己開名額我們現在目前法令都有的各校的一個招生年度的一個招生額度的2%就是用原來的額度的規定而且兩邊也都有一個招生的一個這個合作的一個那就是說明年就要開始開放招生嘛其人上是這樣然後第二個大家非常關心的是說因為我們現在對陸生有一個三線六部嘛"},{"start":6911.045,"end":6939.097,"text":"比如說不能夠有獎權金不能打工等等那如果在尊嚴平等情況之下因為我們對一般的外籍紳士沒有這樣的規定有考慮要開放這三線六部其中的部分的一些限制嗎謝謝委員的關心事實上我們目前已經都在這個部分獎學金鼓勵學校或者地方政府去募款然後提供獎學金甚至這一個他也可以當TARA沒有我知道我現在是講"},{"start":6940.337,"end":6941.077,"text":"打工打工打工"},{"start":6968.752,"end":6984.112,"text":"獎學金獎學金是有的所以獎學金現在三線六部裏面有一個沒獎學金這個要開放是我們是鼓勵學校是這一個學生的一個學習他的一個表現提供獎學金這個我們是支持的所以三線六部"},{"start":6985.458,"end":7002.453,"text":"我們事實上是有一些在調整報告在調整哪一個要調整?跟委員報告從今年2月1號開始陸森也全面這個納入這個健保我想這個部分都是展現我們希望我剛跟你講了啦就是說我們不要一直回圈好不好部長第一次見面不要這樣子不要一直回圈我講的是說他們不見得要打工也不見得要現在是一個平等問題嘛陸森來這邊"},{"start":7010.64,"end":7027.292,"text":"那他跟比如說越南籍的或其他的新南向的學生就感覺不一樣嘛你有這個限制我沒有這個或我有這個限制你沒這個限制感覺好像我在這邊就是被當作異類對待嘛我現在講的是這件事情啦那有沒有考慮到說針對剛剛講的問題有有要去調整有沒有我想這一個部分我再來進一步了解然後你再進一步了解好不好所以現在沒有沒有想法就對了"},{"start":7037.96,"end":7055.934,"text":"對不起我還確實有一些業務還沒有還沒有很了解第二個那既然部長到這邊來就是沒有很了解業務但我就針對我們之前有關心的還有一些家長老師的反應的意見來跟你請教了因為我在你的報告裡面有提到有看到你準備要著手118課綱的研擬了那108課綱已經實施到現在已經五六年的時間不知道部長您滿意這個執行結果嗎"},{"start":7068.294,"end":7080.982,"text":"應該是這麼講 那個大方向是沒有問題的大方向沒問題啦 我現在問的是執行結果因為108課綱我幾個字來形容啦理想很豐滿 現實很骨感啦所以我現在問你的執行 你滿意嗎應該說我們部落是需要微調哪一部分需要微調就是說我們在98課綱的時候在科技數量這部分到108往事用融入造型的"},{"start":7101.448,"end":7125.36,"text":"你講的是要增加AI我講的是執行狀況啦執行狀況這樣好不好不然部長我來直接講好不好我來反映一下家長跟學生心聲好嗎第一個因為108課剛剛是把必修少四分之一增加學科嘛學科沒有考試學科很多都是用報告田野調查寫一個學術論文那你現在是用碩士學生的標準去看待這些國中高中學生啊"},{"start":7126.741,"end":7149.961,"text":"所以這個給他們帶來非常大的壓力那很多學生報告有時候也寫不太出來所以用CHAP GPT不然就是用其他方式來處理這沒有辦法達到你原本想要的目標第二個就是說因為我們的很多學科的時數變少所以我們現在知識變得很破碎然後我們的基礎知識也不夠現在很多大學的老師跟我們反映"},{"start":7150.441,"end":7168.154,"text":"比如說他可能是我看到你有一個目標是希望能夠增加我們前瞻技術人才嘛增加前瞻技術人才當然需要很扎實的基礎的知識來做支撐可是這些學生108課高學生到大學之後大學必須要重新教比如說普通物理或微積分為什麼"},{"start":7169.375,"end":7174.377,"text":"因為高中你把人家學科的時數減少了嘛所以這個都是一個非常大的問題啊然後對於老師而言老師的壓力也變大因為你現在要他們自己要開選修課那這家選修課選修課他要花更多的時間來備課然後他要改很多這個所謂碩士論文級的這些高中生的報告"},{"start":7191.124,"end":7205.63,"text":"可是他時數沒有減少但他壓力增加所以老師的壓力也非常大所以我們當然是可以認同說108課綱他所謂的我們要多元我們要增加選修讓學生探索可是實際的執行狀況就出現很大的落差"},{"start":7208.391,"end":7230.156,"text":"這就是說給部長參考嘛你現在要做118課綱的時候這個問題是必須要面臨要解決的然後再來就是大家比如說舉很多課程比如歷史課歷史現在很多學生讀歷史覺得很無聊啊因為歷史現在因為他的那個時數變得很少所以變得非常破碎他在讀歷史的時候他只記年份跟發生什麼事情但整體來說沒有脈絡"},{"start":7231.98,"end":7251.099,"text":"所以這個都會讓他他產生對歷史的興趣的減少好不好這個108課剛我剛講那幾件問題幾件事情我希望部長你之後可以瞭解一下那你也可以看之前那個三一週刊有做一個調查現在我們要讀私立高中私立國中的學生暴增現在已經到15%要讀私立國中的這個是不是一個"},{"start":7257.065,"end":7280.818,"text":"往上的趨勢那不然你要了解一下為什麼會出現這個情形嗎除了108課綱的問題之外校園安全啊你現在在公立國中公立國中有的學生被記十字大過都無所謂啊你現在校規對學生沒有辦法帶來任何的規範啊學生覺得說被記大過好給你記啊那老師覺得說對啊我記你十字大過二十字大過你也不關痛癢我記我也懶得記啦"},{"start":7282.762,"end":7289.549,"text":"所以校園安全本身也出現問題啊不然我不知道說你最近剛上任有沒有瞭解這些情形有嗎"},{"start":7293.45,"end":7319.174,"text":"謝謝委員的關心 我想校園的一個安全確實不是不只校園安全啦 印巴克綱整個整體的問題印巴克綱事實上我從過去的一個工作的一個經驗當然我有一定程度的理解 譬如說剛才委員所提到的這個在數學物理對 你有沒有發現說我們到了大學我們要重新把高中應該教的物理 化學為積分再繳一遍有沒有"},{"start":7319.494,"end":7339.821,"text":"我們看到有一些單元確實我們看到這個大學利用這個暑假的之前有一些補救的這些大學的一些對嘛就是108課剛實施之後我們大學還要補救嘛這就是問題所在的嘛不過我想108課剛基本上他就強調自主協議對人探索剛剛委員也提到現在理想很豐滿"},{"start":7343.062,"end":7356.765,"text":"現實很骨感所以我現在問的是執行的狀況我想我們會問再來就是雙語教育啦現在那個我們現在政府要推2030雙語教育嘛2024年說雙語的師資到6000名現在幾名了2024說要到6000位雙語教師現在幾位了"},{"start":7371.462,"end":7388.792,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前是有這個四千四千多位將近五千有辦法到六千位嗎一直在努力繼續努力啦我跟部長報告很多國小的家長跟我反映啊國小的英文不知道在上什麼"},{"start":7390.358,"end":7413.668,"text":"說在某一個國小五年級找一個英語老師找一個老師用全英文方式上自然課上的時候所有的學生都聽不懂完全對自然失去興趣一個月後老師先用英文教一遍之後用中文再教一遍大家中文的時候就聽了再一個月放棄英文教學直接用中文現在雙語教育在國小的實施也遇到了非常多的問題"},{"start":7415.605,"end":7431.59,"text":"然後像譬如說他因為他們也沒有其他的教材他們就背課文背課文在國小的時候課文背得很厲害所以有95分可是以這樣的英文能力呢他連英文過去式都不知道到了國中才發現原來有英文過去式"},{"start":7432.597,"end":7458.267,"text":"所以國小的雙語教育推動也面臨到一樣的狀況我們當然都希望大家英文可以好啊可是在推動過程當中不了解現實就出現了很大的落差那我剛剛講的幾件事情都是很多家長跟老師的反應啊因為我們知道部長你才剛上來而且你高教的嘛你也不是國民教育這些希望說部長可以了解一下針對未來這些政策看看是要修正因為新的部長上任總是有新的想法嘛好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":7466.001,"end":7478.547,"text":"好謝謝部長請回座好本席現在先宣布我們在吳佩儀委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘好那接下來我們請登記第7號的郭育晴委員謝謝主席有請部長來我們請部長"},{"start":7495.066,"end":7506.895,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了上個禮拜五其實我們就已經拿到教育部給我們的這個報告了那裡頭我大概也看了一下其實我們涵蓋的這個討論的部分其實非常非常的廣"},{"start":7507.691,"end":7528.016,"text":"不管是從學齡前一直到國高中大學甚至還有原民教育然後還有這個首領的教育就是針對這個長者的部分那還包含我們這個學生輔導還有很多的一個校園安全的一些問題其實我們都寫在報告當中在這裡要給教育部一個肯定"},{"start":7531.977,"end":7542.86,"text":"拜託教育部將來可以在我們的這個整體的台灣的教育部分我們能夠達到一定的目標好那我先來看一下第一張我想開開案這是我第8次站在這個地方那可能部長"},{"start":7551.103,"end":7579.458,"text":"回顧一下就是過去到現在我總共質詢了7次針對凱凱案的部分從3月11日媒體報導的凱凱案全國嘩然那也震驚了全台灣這是一個全台灣人的痛那一直到3月18日在我們的這個衛福部的部分我也去質詢了那在3月21日當很多人都以為是要針對衛福部的時候其實我們發現教育部也是我們俄福聯盟的主管機關之一"},{"start":7579.958,"end":7607.482,"text":"所以我也提出了一些質詢那包含林騰角次長他也特別說到如果最重他其實是可以廢止這個聯盟的設立好到3月28號我們的這個林次長他也說應該要強化財團法人法的一個管理那另外在4月10號林明裕次長因為在3月29號的時候而福聯盟提出了一個書面報告但這份報告從頭到尾看了之後"},{"start":7608.522,"end":7632.527,"text":"發現有報告跟沒報告是一樣的他還在預告2024年他們今年的支出會短缺還短缺了九千七百多萬二月份的時候他們用九千八百萬去買了臺中的不動產然後這份報告裡面就說他缺錢了好那當時的次長呢看到我們這份報告的時候他也說他看不出來F聯盟他有檢討的決心"},{"start":7634.507,"end":7646.033,"text":"4月18日我再次的質詢這是劉司長他說基本上他們的所有的包含大眾的一個捐款應該要用於處理以及照顧"},{"start":7647.645,"end":7664.024,"text":"而服聯盟應該要有的這個業務範圍之內到了5月2號我質詢了潘部長那5月13號潘部長有說不動產的購置來自捐款的餘額那這個餘額的部分"},{"start":7665.481,"end":7677.36,"text":"我今天就針對5月13日的這個質詢我來提出我個人的一些疑問也想請教一下我們的部長的部分好 我們看到往下一張"},{"start":7680.562,"end":7699.896,"text":"當兒福聯盟給教育部的一個報告也就是在109年的報告是在看他們108年的所有的支出的這個現金的流量表的部分其實已經看到他們用的節約款項當中的3.7億購置完成但是他只提列了2.24億"},{"start":7701.917,"end":7726.194,"text":"他另外的1.55億他放在109年當中那我想這個部分其實有一些些很大的疑慮我不曉得教育部為什麼沒有看出來我不是學會計出身但是我跟我的辦公室討論之後發現他們有兩個目的第一個目的是他要讓他的業務支出達到所謂的"},{"start":7726.934,"end":7755.885,"text":"所得稅法當中針對非盈利財團法人他的章程目的要達到六成他可以免稅所以他把3.7億拆成兩年但是他給教育部的報告當中他說他在108年購置3.7億的不動產就已經3.7億全部完成但為什麼在109年也就是說教育部會在110年的時候才看到他在109年的時候他又"},{"start":7756.505,"end":7780.332,"text":"提列了一個叫做1.55億那他還可以除了免稅以外達到六成的業務支出他還可以再提列準備金這個是他們的目的在這個部分我其實有非常大的一個質疑而當時在109年蓋章的董事長就叫做林志佳他要不要為這份"},{"start":7781.132,"end":7786.973,"text":"很讓人匪夷所思的財報做出一個說明在這裡我想請教一下部長"},{"start":7789.926,"end":7810.399,"text":"我想剛才委員所關心的這個兒福包括許多的一些本來這個單位的一個成立這個基金會成立就是希望能夠關照我們體制內透過民間的一個捐贈然後整個社區的社會的一個支援能夠關照我們這個兒童更多的一些"},{"start":7811.7,"end":7826.846,"text":"但顯然他們在財務金流的部分其實是不清楚的甚至是他是為了作帳而作帳要達到60%的業務支出才能夠得到所謂的免稅的一個條件在這個部分我非常的質疑因為2.24億再加上109年列出來的1.55億兩個加起來剛剛好就是3.7億多"},{"start":7834.062,"end":7857.578,"text":"所以他已經把3.7億多分成兩年去墊高他達到六成的業務支出這個部分就財團法人法其實這個財報是非常有問題我是一個不是學經濟不是學財務不是學會計出身的我都已經看到這個問題為什麼我們的教育部看不到呢這個跟委員報告是不是能夠請這個理事長來補充說明好"},{"start":7861.873,"end":7864.995,"text":"所以只要他們說他們專業你們就給過是這樣嗎?"},{"start":7883.06,"end":7909.619,"text":"這個是會計專業我們本身是做行政面還有依照財團法人法相關的規定在財團法人法當中就包含這一部分所以我們是不是要更嚴格的來監督他們所提供的財報這個事後因為今天時間有限這個事後麻煩給我們一個說法因為我不想要再一直質詢凱凱案的部分我們希望教育部成為他的財團法人法當中的主管機關"},{"start":7910.72,"end":7925.58,"text":"沒有針對他們的高層董事的部分做出懲處也就算了開開案成了嗎不可以成這是對全民的一個交代不是只有給我們辦公室一個交代我希望教育部硬起來可以嗎"},{"start":7926.94,"end":7948.204,"text":"好那今天時間的關係第二個部分我想剛剛其實有很多位委員特別有提到所謂的現在108課綱的一些問題喔那我想我是第一個在108課綱當中提到學習歷程檔案是不是可以在將來他們升學的比例上的調整這個比例是不是可以往下降"},{"start":7948.524,"end":7951.527,"text":"學生和學生家長們可以稍微喘口氣。我們來看一下這個報告的部分。學習歷程檔案我們發現了很多學生他們在學習歷程檔案的製作上面"},{"start":7964.238,"end":7969.779,"text":"由15.6%他會去有問題請教班級導師9.1%他會請教科任老師3.5%會請教輔導老師而整個整體他們因為108課綱當中的學習歷程檔案會去求助於校方的只佔了28.2%其他71.8%的孩子在不知道怎麼寫學習歷程檔案的時候"},{"start":7993.924,"end":8021.778,"text":"包括補習班也是他們要求助的管道我想這針對所謂的我們利益良好的學習歷程檔案來講這的確在中間在實施上也出現了很多很多的問題那我想在這個部分我們是不是可以請教育部來好好的演繹一下在學習歷程檔案當中我們讓孩子能夠真正的寫下"},{"start":8022.418,"end":8041.309,"text":"他們心目當中他們將來進了大學將來可能大學畢業之後他們想要的一個志向這個比任何事情都還要來的更重要因為我們發現有很多的孩子就算他從高一上下學期每一個學期都在寫學期歷程檔案的時候其實到了高三他們會發現他們還是很焦慮"},{"start":8043.991,"end":8064.726,"text":"因為我們很多的學系跟他想要的學習歷程檔案當中他將來對於職業或將來對於他的興趣其實他是會有一些背離的一個狀況這個部分我們是不是可以在比例上來做調整我不是說不要學習歷程檔案而是在比例上我們來做調整可以嗎我想謝謝委員的指正我們學習歷程檔案基本上就是一個"},{"start":8074.121,"end":8078.664,"text":"但他占了升學的比例也就是說他的學測成績要到某一個程度"},{"start":8104.301,"end":8117.525,"text":"之前就有很多的教授他們也說60%的教授說我不知道這個學習歷程檔案到底是這個學生寫的還是學生家長寫的還是他是外面補習班寫的我不認識這個孩子啊"},{"start":8120.006,"end":8120.286,"text":"謝謝我們會來努力"},{"start":8144.986,"end":8170.075,"text":"最後一點時間我們來看一下我們的公立幼兒園在今年也就是上個禮拜其實5月除了是報稅以外當然也有很多的士林的孩子的家長們他們要開始抽公立的幼兒園但是他們就說了明明就是少子化但是公立的我永遠都抽不到怎麼這麼難抽我到底該怎麼辦"},{"start":8174.475,"end":8192.183,"text":"這個部分是不是在整個所有我們要面對所謂的資源配置上的一個問題我舉個例子來講可能教育部這邊可能會說不會啊我們有很多的小學有閒置的教室閒置的教室空出來就可以當成這個公立幼兒園他們的一個空間了這不會有什麼配置上的問題"},{"start":8193.243,"end":8197.325,"text":"回過頭去想當有小學閒置的教室也就是說連小學都抽不滿連小學都招不滿了怎麼可能會期待還有幼兒園要來這邊抽公立的幼兒園呢我想這是"},{"start":8211.191,"end":8238.77,"text":"對的政策放在不對的地方這是資源上分配的一個不夠不夠妥善所以這個部分是不是我們的教育部這個地方可能也要在所謂的公立幼兒園跟準公幼的部分現在很多人一窩蜂的想要往準公幼去但是問題是公立幼兒園還是有人有需要但問題是還是進不去這個部分我們是不是也要往這個部分要來再好好的來想一想"},{"start":8241.043,"end":8254.215,"text":"議員的提醒,我想我們會來積極了解第一線上的一些這些問題來謀求改善還有另外就是學前的這個身上孩子他們的一個學就是學習的權益的一個問題然後我想現在的這個巡迴輔導師當中一個人要負擔24個孩子"},{"start":8260.981,"end":8261.441,"text":"謝謝兩位,那部長先請回座"},{"start":8294.926,"end":8298.808,"text":"好 我們接下來我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席 有請教育部鄭英耀部長好 請鄭部長"},{"start":8329.435,"end":8346.132,"text":"上週質詢文化部的時候我有提到有民眾向我們澄清巴黎文化奧運台灣館的主視覺跟Apple這家公司的emoji表情符號高度相似的當時文化部回答這個案子是沒有向Apple的法律部門申請使用權"},{"start":8347.733,"end":8362.199,"text":"結果前幾天我再度又接獲了設計學院的教師陳琴說這個主視覺疑似在未取得國際奧委會授權的情況之下使用了奧運五環的標誌而且可能做了一些有可能違反規定的一些修改"},{"start":8363.019,"end":8378.235,"text":"據瞭解這位教師寫信向總統府陳情陳情案件後來被轉到行政院又因為體育是教育部的主管事項所以又被轉到教育部來處理部長想請教一下你知不知道這件事奧運五環有沒有版權"},{"start":8381.335,"end":8397.576,"text":"跟委員報告這當然是有的是喔很好我們這個版權是非常重要智慧財產也是非常重要那這個案子呢我們有沒有向國際奧會申請授權使用奧運五環的標誌包含使用以及二創以及再設計有沒有申請"},{"start":8406.28,"end":8428.83,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們會請奧委會這一個來跟這一個大會裡面來接觸來接洽這一個版權的一些相關的問題我想我們台灣已經脫離這個制裁地域已經很長的時間了我們現在都非常重視這個設計原創根據現行奧林匹克憲章第一章跟第五章的規定奧林匹克五環是奧林匹克運動會的象徵國際奧會的專用標誌"},{"start":8431.411,"end":8450.793,"text":"未經國際奧委會特別許可任何團體或個人都不得將它用於廣告或者其他商業性的活動如果不是商業目的則必須是奧運會的主辦城市官方贊助商或授權商使用麻煩進一步了解我們目前使用這樣的一個設計或再設計或再修改"},{"start":8451.474,"end":8470.284,"text":"有沒有符合規定有沒有符合授權的機制否則呢這個案子對我們的國際形象會有重大的影響也會關乎未來中華奧會跟國際奧會之間未來的合作關係那我想接下來是不是能夠請這個部長還有這個跟文化部一起共同釐清這個授權使用的問題那後續的處理能不能將一週內將書面報告提供為本席"},{"start":8474.531,"end":8485.109,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒,確實只有奧委會,台灣的奧委會可以使用這一個五個圈環,那我們會跟文化部來進一步來瞭解"},{"start":8487.034,"end":8515.542,"text":"我想好的設計大家都歡迎但是在使用上面要符合文化以及符合制裁權的規範否則的話很可能會給大家帶來一些麻煩這都不是我們想看到接下來想請教一下部長有關數位教育的問題這幾天引起的話題蔡前總統在任期倒數的期間在臉書細數了8年內執政的成果結果在教育面向卻只提到了兩個大重點斑斑有冷氣深深用平板當然這是很好的政策但是這些主要都是花錢"},{"start":8516.502,"end":8531.898,"text":"花錢可能就有當然執行過程也很耗心力但是我想應該不會只有這個吧那引發了各界熱議對於數位教育的政策硬體資源的部件還有我們的軟體的增進或者甚至AI的導入到底是什麼"},{"start":8532.338,"end":8553.838,"text":"我們其實應該要有更宏觀更前瞻的思維那翻開我們的就今天的業務報告啦我當然要肯定教育部對於數學教育已經有明確的短期規劃包含我先前質詢的時候一再提到的AI使用指引在報告當中有明確的提到數學教學指引3.0預計將納入人工智慧使用風險生成是AI輔助教學的原則等等預計在10月"},{"start":8555.399,"end":8560.222,"text":"這是提出我也非常期待那我想接下來其實還不只是這些"},{"start":8585.319,"end":8585.399,"text":"主席"},{"start":8607.254,"end":8621.813,"text":"我想這個部分也是希望未來了解一下就是自研跟使用成熟的這些技術或者廠商的這些服務去finetune或再修改或再設計或再製作到底哪個好哪個不好我們之後未來再一起來研議那當然我想有這樣的精神還是很好的事"},{"start":8624.796,"end":8651.966,"text":"另外也提醒教育部教學現場的教跟學也是密不可分AI的使用指引目前比較是以老師來做教學的規範但是學生到底要怎麼樣做AI的使用原則其實目前是相對比較不清楚的請教一下部長教育部是否研議推出高中以下學生版的AI使用指引讓學生未來無論是在學習或者競賽我們之前有學生很會用AI結果參加比賽被記的小過"},{"start":8653.166,"end":8666.656,"text":"那甚至是未來入學考試上到底能不能用AI來重新修整他的文字內容能不能提出用AI化的話他提出了以後有沒有要做標注有沒有明確的AI使用原則可以運行教育部會不會提出呢在哪裡指引在哪裡學生用的喔"},{"start":8683.612,"end":8712.245,"text":"我們現在是國會殿堂最近我們拜託跟委員報告就是我們的學生的部分我們在3.0的地方會特別在所以就是10月還沒推出所以未來麻煩注意一下謝謝這真的是要快一點因為馬上升學季本席再次強調不光是給老師的教學指引學生真的也需要使用指引請教育部對此進行研議現在是5月份我是希望能夠快一點能不能3月至少有一個初步的結果"},{"start":8712.625,"end":8715.727,"text":"教育部長 目前大學入學的備審資料及學位論文的撰寫有沒有規範 有沒有明確的規範到底能不能用生成式的AI規範如何"},{"start":8739.377,"end":8744.64,"text":"這題應該很簡單阿馬上要那個學位考試了嘛大家能不能用AI寫論文阿這個當然是不行的確定嗎目前沒有規範但是有一些部長要確認喔這個這個講出來很嚴重喔跟委員報告大概用CHAT GPT去協助去許多資料的收集或者有一些這一個我請他幫我優化我的論文段落可不可以阿這當然是可以的"},{"start":8768.072,"end":8768.432,"text":"跟委員報告這個我會後"},{"start":8783.297,"end":8802.499,"text":"我都有一個AI的工作圈我們會把...盡快研議一下為什麼現在國際已經非常多在討論這個事情昨天出來的新聞Computer Science裡面的論文大概有17.5%都有AI參與的這個痕跡而且他未必有標注那到底我們的規範是什麼"},{"start":8804.12,"end":8832.768,"text":"到底是一個論文的合理使用生成式的AI比例是多少到底是30% 50% 60%還是90%教育部應該要來明確規範而且到底有沒有要標示像以前我們在網路上查資料以後都要放到reference最早期的時候沒有規定大家不一定放但是現在有了規定大家都要放可是AI的指引是完全沒有的我們沒有任何的規範還是APA格式有修正這個教育部能不能把這個相關的細節呢早一點公開讓大家知道"},{"start":8834.094,"end":8859.875,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想涉及到這一個學術倫理的東西我們要這個加速來做我們真的不希望過了幾十年之後大家又忽然回來找說誰誰誰的論文是AI寫的那結果影響到這些人的這個選舉或被選舉權這都不是我們想要看到的那也提醒一下部長目前教育部沒有給予這個各大學官方認定的AI生成比對的工具這造成什麼問題呢第一線教室要用肉眼去審查"},{"start":8861.016,"end":8876.414,"text":"學生是不是有使用生成式AI的痕跡同時學生很可能也沒有相關的規範來告訴他能用不能用使得可能會違背了所謂的平權的精神家境比較好的學生用了付費版的GPT或者付費版的AI"},{"start":8876.874,"end":8902.251,"text":"他的東西做出來特別漂亮特別好看特別閱讀起來特別流暢結果呢免費版的東西做的就比較爛甚至現在開始有這種GPT的apps結果呢只有付費版的學生可以使用請教一下部長教育部有沒有可能迅速的提出AI生成比對工具的認證清單來供各大專院校參考使用讓教師擺脫用肉眼來看到底誰是人誰是AI能不能做到這件事"},{"start":8903.377,"end":8925.752,"text":"我們會透過這個工作群裡邊來請大專業校裡邊我們這個委員來看怎麼樣從專業裡邊更清楚來做一些規範我想AI真的是一直在變我想希望真的是希望教育部接下來有一個整個非常棒的團隊都希望能夠又是AI內閣我們趕快來做一些指引讓大家有跡可循"},{"start":8926.633,"end":8934.535,"text":"那再來呢我也要來談這個高教教學品質的擔憂因為我過去也在學校裡面根據監察院110年的調查109年全國大專院校的兼任教師超過4萬人近20年的漲幅高達56%有一個超級可怕的數據目前兼任跟專人的教師逼近1比1"},{"start":8947.279,"end":8972.588,"text":"而且過半以上的私立大專業院校兼任教師比重高達五成以上甚至有私立大專業院校有高達八成以上當然你從好處看你說我們有很多這個海納百川有很多的人才但是現在的招生人數逐年下降光112年度就有9800多位教師未獲續聘其中本來沒有本職沒有其他的工作只靠終點費維生的人就高達20%"},{"start":8974.108,"end":8984.676,"text":"教育部號稱今年幫公立大學兼任師資調漲終點費30年來第一次調整我們來看一下日間從每小時教授等級995變1035我們來看最多的講師其實就是兼任講師725塊調到755塊增加30塊錢"},{"start":8993.542,"end":9005.491,"text":"我們的茶葉蛋已經漲了200%結果這些人的時薪竟然只調3%不到部長您認為這樣的薪資調服三顆茶葉蛋有助於提升大學的教學品質嗎?您知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":9009.433,"end":9029.589,"text":"您覺得這樣合理嗎?我想跟委員坦白充寬在這個部分裡邊我並還沒有那麼熟悉但是怎麼樣確保這些堅韌的老師他的一個授課而不要疲於奔命而能夠提升這個確保這個學生的這個學習品質我想這是我們在努力的"},{"start":9029.989,"end":9043.797,"text":"好我想跟您分享這個51所啦63所的私立技專院校裡面63所當中有51所落後於當年度公立學校的知己標準占比高達81%我再講一次這30年間茶葉蛋從一顆五塊漲到15塊漲幅高達200%結果我們現在竟然只給他們調薪3%那我想這可能不是我們想要看到的尤其私校目前又遇到很多財政的這個問題"},{"start":9056.064,"end":9081.597,"text":"我想這個教育部有說要補助7成私校調整的兼任教師的終點費但是呢體察教育現場的狀況仍有高達6成5以上的私校兼任教師薪資水準低於公校兼任教師顯見目前的補助機制是利有未待想請教一下部長教育部能不能權衡私校財務的情形演繹私校兼任終點費由教育部全額補助至當年度公立大專院校兼任教師終點費的資金標準"},{"start":9085.273,"end":9108.152,"text":"委員報告我想我們鼓勵這個民間新學那怎麼樣去確保他的這個受教學生的受教品質這是一直我們努力的但是就獎勵民間新學他相當程度他也應該有一定的承諾那政府在這個財政上來看我想我們我們有退稅喔財政上不一定如你想像中的困難喔"},{"start":9111.564,"end":9120.395,"text":"您可以講完我想這一個部分確實要全額補助就財政來講事實上是我們也許可以來評估看他的"},{"start":9121.915,"end":9138.449,"text":"至少拉起跟鼓勵這個私校然後能夠拉起這一個終點會我想這是我們努力的目標好 謝謝我想不只拉起我認為這個調薪的幅度真的太低了我們的這個能不能也拉起現代產業單的價格"},{"start":9139.79,"end":9161.106,"text":"今天我特地帶來的三粒茶葉蛋要來送給部長和兩位新上任的次長有次長也是我的偶像我想提醒三位教育政策一定要接地氣苦學生所苦苦家長所苦接下來我們還要面對來自AI全球的挑戰教育部雖然以補助方式去鼓勵私立大專院校提升終點費但現況卻還是有很多的落後而且有一個非常重要的點真的是要依法"},{"start":9167.711,"end":9187.04,"text":"以學校的財務發展情形來同步調升我們剛剛提到了這個兼任教師的薪資被壓抑的這個狀況已經有監察院提出了不符合憲法而且也不符合教師待遇條例及專科以上學校兼任教師的聘任辦法等等應該保障教育工作者的生活意志接下來學校又要收場"},{"start":9187.58,"end":9187.7,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9211.548,"end":9231.949,"text":"謝謝格魯賓委員謝謝部長可以請回座不過我忍不住還是要說身為在私立大學裏面四個兼任老師可以等於一個專職老師這也是促成目前為止一比一個非常重要的緣故所以在幫私校的兼任老師提升的時候專任老師的名額我覺得這也是高教非常重要的問題好不好謝謝"},{"start":9233.427,"end":9240.674,"text":"好,我們在吳佩儀委員質詢完畢之後我們就會休息5分鐘那現在我們請登記第9號的吳佩儀委員好,我們請部長及兩位次長"},{"start":9260.689,"end":9277.922,"text":"部長好上個禮拜五我們看到很多的民眾來到立法院外面關心我們國會正在審查的國會擴權法案的修法那其中呢很多媒體在關注的是現場看到了很多是高中生"},{"start":9278.843,"end":9299.962,"text":"那這些高中生的發言我坦白說我自己看到是非常的驚豔我認為我們的高中生是論述能力非常的強因為他們所提出來的觀點跟他的論述以及他事實查核的能力其實很多都超越我們不同政黨提出來的說明版本你可以看得出來他們是自己做功課"},{"start":9300.703,"end":9327.612,"text":"自己去思考的不只是臺北的議場外我們看到高中生包括了彰化嘉義火車站都有高中生主動出來發起集會熊中的學生在學校發起了肥皂箱裡面是各種不同的觀點所以對我來說這絕對不會是單一政黨的行動我想請問部長你有沒有看到我們的高中生在街頭上在學校上為了我們國家的公共政策站出來論述"},{"start":9330,"end":9353.85,"text":"我想確實很多的時候我們看到我們現在年輕人對國家發展的一個關心公共政策的一些關心事實上真的是比以前有更多的一些關懷的心這某種相當程度我們是應該要給肯定表示我們教育在鼓勵獨立思考在追求這個民主"},{"start":9355.111,"end":9375.776,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":9375.796,"end":9377.037,"text":"我希望教育部持續努力提升學生的自主能力"},{"start":9391.684,"end":9410.778,"text":"那所以呢今天也必須要跟部長討論的也就是我們的青年基本法青年基本法近期教育部才召開了公聽會其中兩項是我們收集到民間的意見第一點就是我們希望在法治裡面青年基本法來明定是支持青年政策的參與另外也希望"},{"start":9411.198,"end":9421.067,"text":"要有更多的跟學生直接對話的平台所以首先我想要請問部長的是我們青年基本法來明定鼓勵青年政策參與這個方向你是認同的嗎"},{"start":9423.882,"end":9450.809,"text":"我想身為一個民主的國家的任何一個分子我相信那個關心國家的一個政策的發展這個應該是被鼓勵的所以青年這個對公共事務的一個參與或者這個我想我們應該要來給予肯定那關於我們跟青年直接來對話的這個平台教育部目前有沒有在規劃當中"},{"start":9452.831,"end":9481.325,"text":"我想我們現在事實上這個跟委員報告我們現在的網路很多的這個管道事實上都是可以來納入這個聽這個年輕人的聲音我也建立了青年參與政策的一些機制從中央到地方事實上都是有的甚至我們看到地方還有一些青年發展局這些正式的組織的成立都是希望能夠有更多的鼓勵年輕人共同關心這一塊土地"},{"start":9482.025,"end":9482.185,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":9497.606,"end":9505.353,"text":"例如我今天要直接具體提三點的建議第一個目前我們教育部的主張關於青年的年齡定義是在18歲到45歲我的建議是我們應該要參考聯合國的標準把它放寬下修到15歲尤其是我們現在看到"},{"start":9516.018,"end":9543.525,"text":"高中生對於公共的參與有絕對的熱切也有絕對的能力所以我希望既然我們要去打開政府跟青年對話的平台不要把高中生排除在之外第二點是我們的政治參與其實當然有很多的形式過去親府會時期當時的主委是我們現在的副院長聖立軍他當時力推的是審議民主那這幾年我自己在地方議會都看到了很多是參與是預算"},{"start":9545.605,"end":9554.35,"text":"實的實作行政院有推動了VTaiwan的現象政策等等討論的經驗所以我要說的是我們當然有非常多的平台可以讓青年來參與但是千萬不要讓青年淪為我們政府的樣板也就是說青年的參與青年的意見我們必須實質的讓他去可以導入我們決策的過程這才叫做父權不是說開會的時候找個青年代表來簽個名"},{"start":9573.601,"end":9575.802,"text":"會議結束的結論還是都是依照我們部理依照我們政府的版本來去做那這個就叫做青年樣板不叫做青年政策參與所以我希望教育部未來再訂定不管是青年國師會議還是相關的機制務必要把父權"},{"start":9588.851,"end":9613.465,"text":"青年參與決策這一項非常重要的要件要把它納入第三點就是我們看到了不管是大學的學生社團還是高中生的學生社團其實發展都越來越蓬勃但我希望我們把社團也要當作我們正式教育的一環但目前我看到我們教育部在政策上面支持學生社團的政策工具是少之又少我自己在高中參加"},{"start":9615.106,"end":9615.126,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":9630.538,"end":9632.3,"text":"我們的體育署是要升格為體育部那這個呢不只是我們賴清德總統競選期間的證件也是我個人參選立委的時候提出來的證件尤其是我在台北市擔任市議員的時候就注意到"},{"start":9645.615,"end":9648.938,"text":"我們臺北市的運動產業規模是快速的增加以健身房為例2013年的時候只有149間到2023年已經是幾倍數的成長來到超過900間這個會有什麼問題在疫情的時候當時大量的場館都有紓困的需求甚至發生很多消費的爭議但是因為我們過去我們地方政府的自治條例裡面對於運動場館其實沒有一個具體的納管"},{"start":9671.576,"end":9679.382,"text":"所以產生了非常多有爭議但是政府找不到權責單位去介入協助調解的問題所以我想我們看到的是運動產業在臺灣是蓬勃並且快速的發展已經到了我們政府的組織改造刻不容緩的時刻那除了我剛剛講到的場館像是職棒工會職籃工會女足工會也都是先後成立我想現在"},{"start":9696.894,"end":9701.836,"text":"台灣人可能10年前都很難可以想像現在我們直男聯盟甚至有兩個直男聯盟是這麼樣的蓬勃發展那工會呢他參與了工會跟球團之間的權力保障也涉及到了選手當他擔任國手的時候他跟我們政府之間的權力保障所以之前我也跟署長常常在關心是我們直男工會相關的議題所以我希望我們現在在"},{"start":9723.985,"end":9729.049,"text":"終於來到了要去升格討論的時刻我們體育署2011年才成立了運動產業組他是從我們原來的中規組來改組的但是我們必須要去因應我們運動產業的這個蓬勃的變化所以我希望我們在做這個組織改造的時候必須要把運動產業要把它很仔細的去考量進去所以說我想請問部長目前對於體育署升格為體育部我們有沒有一個時間表"},{"start":9754.734,"end":9777.721,"text":"跟委員報告首先有關運動產業這個部分確實我們現在這個體育署確實有把這個規劃他不排斥在未來的一個規劃可能會變成一個署或者研究院的這樣的一個層級所以我們目前在整個體育署這個部分他確實也已經有一些初步的規劃"},{"start":9780.042,"end":9788.348,"text":"7月7月會大概在北中南東分區去座談然後也許8月就開始針對這些座談的社會廣廳社會好所以我們預計7月份會來舉辦座談是"},{"start":9794.352,"end":9797.315,"text":"這座談是跟民間團體相關的實務界的來座談這非常重要我認為過去我們文化部我們法定是要求要舉辦全國文化會議我認為我們也應該要舉辦全國體育會議那如果部長我就是要提醒你這一點"},{"start":9811.509,"end":9814.99,"text":"這個體育部升格固然是我個人認為非常重要但是我認為充分的跟我們實務界來討論再來去擬定我們的這個升格相關的規劃更加為重要如果現在有人跟你說你立刻馬上給我提出這個修法立刻要升格都不用討論的話那個人就是在害你因為沒有討論不是民主啊部長"},{"start":9834.335,"end":9837.438,"text":"所以切記我們一定要充分的跟民間溝通討論看見產業需求看見選手需求再來做我們綜合相關的規劃可不可以做得到"},{"start":9845.12,"end":9861.993,"text":"當然這個廣聽民意然後做出一個更好的一個這個升格的一個規劃那是我們努力的目標再來是我們的體育預算因為我們副院長昨天也說體育預算應該要來增加我就想要請問我們張亮次長因為我知道過去你一直在關心我們的這個運動發展基金的編列過去我們的執行率已經好不容易有達到來九成"},{"start":9871.039,"end":9887.602,"text":"但是我們的收入的決算每次都是低估能不能請問為什麼會這樣子呢我其實在擔任委員的時候我也對這個預算尤其是基金的預算公務的預算的比例也曾經建議過當然現在我在部裡面我們會盡量來爭取這個除了我們那個基金預算以外我們的公務預算也能夠年年成長"},{"start":9896.724,"end":9916.834,"text":"是因為預算就是要何時編列已經連年都是低估了所以我希望我們未來要來精確的去評估從2016到2024年應該是從大概七八十億的規模已經成長到一百三十幾億那明年因為現在開始在編明年的預算那明年預算預計也會繼續成長"},{"start":9919.895,"end":9934.261,"text":"最後我想要請教我們葉市長因為我自己個人國小參與的是410當時教改一個實驗班我在台北市議會的時候也是來推動臺北市實驗教訓中心的成立我知道"},{"start":9935.081,"end":9949.794,"text":"業次長你說你所辦的這第一批的非學校實驗教育機構已經有學生是大學生了他們也回來跟你聊天所以過去我們這些年來的經驗實驗教育三法修法之後這些經驗你認為未來我們教育部要怎麼樣來支持實驗教育"},{"start":9952.842,"end":9971.671,"text":"我想實驗教育是臺灣的教育我覺得一個蠻難得的一個果實那我想比如以去年來講的話之前這個東京都政府他們其實派了一群官員來臺灣參訪就是特別想要來看實驗教育我想臺灣實驗教育其實做到已經連日本一些我覺得他們都在這件事情"},{"start":9972.771,"end":10000.831,"text":"但回過頭來我覺得這10年下來確實有一些我覺得我們未來可以一起再努力的目標比如說舉例來講像實驗教育有很多時候最大的一個挑戰就是包括一些空間這些很多的問題事實上比如說像在學校裡面這些簽約租約都是要一年一簽這對實驗教育都有非常大的壓力那再包括比如說像這個數位資訊的這些的support這些其實它如果不是一個正常的學校的話它要申請這些其實有時候也都會受到"},{"start":10006.014,"end":10017.863,"text":"實現教育最重要一件事情是體制外的教育不是要為了要跟體制內打對台事實上在108課綱的很多的精神包括以素養為主的這些教育其實很多的理念跟實現教育在做的事情是很相通的"},{"start":10018.323,"end":10018.423,"text":"實驗教育"},{"start":10038.368,"end":10063.724,"text":"要避免就是裡面有一些其實坦白講也有我們看到一些他可能就是掛羊頭賣狗肉他其實假時間教育知名但是他可能行更填鴨之食的可以拿掉很多我們在課綱覺得很重要的一些課反而可以更著重在升學的填鴨那怎麼樣讓這些不會變成時間教育汙名化這也是我覺得未來是一個我們可以要努力的目標來確保時間教育的教育的品質謝謝"},{"start":10064.625,"end":10077.196,"text":"好部長我必須要說我今天相當失望的是在我們教育部整本報告裡面我沒有看到我們對實驗教育政策方向的說明那過去為什麼我們在台北市地方政府要推動一個中心就是我們發現這個主責承辦的單位他是分成國小國中高中但可能實驗教育機構有一所他就是國小國中高中是貫穿的所以我希望在我們的部門當中其實有一個整體的大腦"},{"start":10089.727,"end":10096.353,"text":"是可以整體的來去思考我們實驗教育推廣的方向這部分我希望教育部可能能夠繼續來精進好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝各位 謝謝好 那我們接下來 謝謝配議委員然後謝謝部長次長我們接下來休息5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10412.349,"end":10414.752,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請陳秀寶委員謝主席,請鄭部長好,我們請部長"},{"start":10433.936,"end":10442.663,"text":"委員好部長早安首先先歡迎鄭英耀部長您來接掌部長這個職務啦也期待說鄭部長您的帶領能夠將您在教育現場的這些實務的經驗呢融入後續的我們相關的教育政策的擬定讓我們國的國內的這個教育政策可以更加順利的推動那首先在這邊我先要向部長您拜託這個我在總質詢的時候有向當時時任部長的潘部長有提出要求"},{"start":10463.2,"end":10463.3,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10484.682,"end":10498.096,"text":"要整修的經費都比較龐大很需要教育部這邊來協助那時候我有請教育部盡快來盤點相關各需要的協助趕快來統整資料來提供必要的這些協助不知道說我們教育部現在有什麼進度"},{"start":10500.661,"end":10516.328,"text":"我想這一個我目前在盤點這一個需要修繕有1800多的場館那我們會逐年依照他的一個安全跟他的一個急迫性所以你們盤點的資料已經有出來了可是會有一份資料給我辦公室"},{"start":10517.368,"end":10533.542,"text":"後續我再跟部長您這邊來討論怎麼來協助這些相關的這些學校所需要的協助那這邊來請教我們部長國中的會考在5月19日是已經落幕但是在考試的過程還是又出狀況而且這次出狀況是在本席的選區本席有接到考生跟家長的陳情在鹿港的這個市場考生有反映說這個市場的監視人員將考試規則重複播放了兩次"},{"start":10544.991,"end":10545.051,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":10567.481,"end":10593.87,"text":"在試題播放結束再用剩下的5分鐘把答案畫在答案卡上那所以說這5分鐘對他們講非常的珍貴被浪費掉1分鐘他們只剩下4分鐘的時間可以來這個檢討檢查答案來把答案畫上去所以這些考生非常非常的焦慮也造成了他們有出錯那這個部分我想請教部長說目前你們有沒有掌握到這個狀況那後續你們怎麼處理"},{"start":10596.616,"end":10596.636,"text":"好!"},{"start":10625.896,"end":10640.225,"text":"好那這個部分呢再來你們掌握到的狀況跟怎麼處理呢你也要一份報告給我辦公室這邊知道那本席在不久之前也詢問過關於統測的題目抄襲的問題那現在統測成績單都已經在5月16號開始激發了離這個考試也已經過了將近一個月了官網上面還是沒有看到調查的這個結果那請問說現在我們對這個統測題目涉嫌有抄襲的調查結果是什麼你們預計要如何來改善"},{"start":10656.192,"end":10677.632,"text":"這個是不是能夠請我們這個市長來好那請您回答好跟委員報告那我們統策中心針對這一個議題已經調查出來了是沒有這樣的一個問題他題目也都改寫命庭的方式是有做調整的那這一份報告在統策中心的網頁裡面有"},{"start":10679.494,"end":10685.117,"text":"所以以教育部這邊來了解的結果你們的認定是說不是我們的認定跟委員報告他們有透過三次的邀請學者專家不管是大學的老師或是技高的老師共同來討論這個部分本期尊重你們有你的專業但是說對考生權益的維護呢其實本期一直都很關系長期在追蹤我們全國性考試的狀況"},{"start":10704.969,"end":10715.974,"text":"但是不論是哪一種考試都是學生他們辛苦了好幾年所準備的對他們來講每一場考試都非常的重要結果從去年到今年陸陸續續都發生狀況尤其是今年學測統測到會考只要是全國性的考試都出包出包率都已經要變成是常態了部長您覺得這樣的頻率出包的頻率你可以接受嗎"},{"start":10726.503,"end":10748.081,"text":"我想這個重大的考試不要說重大考試就平常一般學校考試也不應該出包所以我們有事實上都任何特別全國性的一些大型考試都有一些標準每一場考試都很重要都不應該出包但是這麼這麼高的出包的頻率我們教育部難道沒有更有效的監督辦法讓這些考試的事務中心更正常一點的運作來維護這些考生的權益嗎"},{"start":10752.895,"end":10759.982,"text":"我想我們會跟委員報告我們會持續精進在整個監視人員包括整個流程裡邊我相信我們會"},{"start":10762.165,"end":10768.71,"text":"可以透過更努力的來精進一定可以降低這樣的一個部長本席這邊要求就是教育部你們在3個月內提供關於協策統策會考等全國性考試的這個事務流程檢討以及後續你們改善的措施的檢討報告給本席那也希望說我們教育部呢也可以"},{"start":10783.28,"end":10787.565,"text":"未來在部長您的領導之下可以有效的讓事務中心更嚴謹的辦理以後的考試尤其分科考試測驗即將來臨本期希望不要再有任何影響考生權益的狀況發生"},{"start":10799.62,"end":10814.885,"text":"是,這也是我們努力,我們應該要做的好,部長,近期針對中國大陸學衛生的討論也很多大家都很關心那賴清德總統也說在就職演說時有提到說將重啟學衛生來台那在5月21日的時候部長您也說全面恢復陸生來台那這邊要請教部長我們針對大陸學生學衛生的部分呢是要比照過去的人數開放還是會先一部分的開放"},{"start":10829.671,"end":10839.883,"text":"目前我們事實上合定的既有的一個辦法是招生的各校招生的一個百分之二這個額度裡邊來先進行這個協會所以會先部分開放陸陸續續的再增加名額是嗎?"},{"start":10844.724,"end":10850.529,"text":"本席這邊也可認教育部你們這邊先釋出善意的做法其實我們要廣納各國各界的學生來台不僅是培養人才也是向外展示台灣的方法"},{"start":10868.924,"end":10884.387,"text":"根據過去我們看一下中國慣行的方式其實陸生不來也是很大的變因是因為說中國單方面他有在控制本席這邊也建議說除了開放中國大陸的學位生之外是不是針對其他國際生我們也可以把這些名額適度的去調整給其他國家來向這些國家優秀的學生招手這個部分我覺得你們可以做這樣的調整"},{"start":10894.309,"end":10916.276,"text":"我們事實上是從那個方向在努力另一個部分要請教我們賴清德總統對AI發展也都有著墨AI是國際趨勢未來台灣而且我們台灣是高科技及半導體的重鎮針對這個注重AI的發展本席這邊要強調的就是語言程式教育向下延伸的重要性"},{"start":10916.836,"end":10934.574,"text":"過去不管是在本席的委員會在質詢的時候還是在院會質詢我都有提過都有關心過那本席在總質詢的時候有指出我國的語言程式教育缺乏同意的師資同意的教材及一致的目標那甚至說許多的規劃跟計劃都直接丟給地方政府"},{"start":10935.234,"end":10943.759,"text":"這樣恐怕也會造成語言程式教育存在的城鄉差距的隱憂而且會讓教學現場的老師針對因為不同教材的規劃會有很大顯著的不同根據媒體的報導教育部這邊相關小組有到韓國觀摩針對韓國的經驗他們在2025年韓國的AI數位教科書就會上線這就是本席所提的統一的教材請問我們教育部現在對於統一的教材統一的私資培訓你們有怎樣的規劃"},{"start":10965.2,"end":10965.48,"text":"公務委員報告"},{"start":10995.14,"end":10998.762,"text":"那這樣子就變成說你們是沒有一個統一的目標你也沒有統一的一個一個讓學生跟老師在學習過後做一個做一個有標準的一個來評斷判斷說學生是不是真的有完成這個課程跟委員報告大概我們課綱事實上是有目標的那當然因為小學在98課綱改為這個調整到108課綱的時候我們事實上是用融入學科"},{"start":11023.493,"end":11032.019,"text":"融入學科在社會在小學這個階段真的我很建議教育部你們不要把這樣子的城市語言教育當成類似像一個通識課程這樣子說我有上就好我們既然有這樣的課程規劃我們就要讓學生真正有學習到那是我們產業人才的競爭的優勢"},{"start":11042.185,"end":11069.343,"text":"所以說本席非常的重視在這邊其實我要建議我是希望說我國的城市語言教育推發統一的目標及教材一定要研議改進然後針對各校資訊的教材補充之後我們要做後續的規劃還有要請教育部這邊的規劃各階段統一的教材然後進行私資培訓來供教育現場的教師才能夠試用這個部分我希望你們可以盡速的研議"},{"start":11070.672,"end":11081.684,"text":"謝謝是真的要落實它而不是說這樣的課程有商就好我有安排就好我肯定不是的那我剛剛提的這三個建議請你們教育部這邊盡快來研議喔"},{"start":11083.697,"end":11083.857,"text":"學生輔導法"},{"start":11103.081,"end":11118.472,"text":"在上個屆期本席有提出修正案但是因為屆期不連續也沒有辦法刪讀但是這個會期本席也會再提出關於學生輔導法部分的這個條文的修正草案但是這邊也希望說教育部這邊你們應該要盡快的研議學生輔導法的這個進度不知道你們什麼時候會提出"},{"start":11131.602,"end":11145.714,"text":"目前在行政院審查中那因為新內閣已經就任了後續我們會就何時提送所以每天送行政院囉那先前教育部在評估現場狀況之後有決議說從今年開始大專院校的這個專輔人力是從1比1200有調到1比900這個部分本席也肯定說教育部這邊的努力啦"},{"start":11154.622,"end":11165.463,"text":"那是不是說在高中以下的學校還沒有在HFR還沒有修訂完成之前可不可以先編列預算來補足這個政府人力的規劃可以先這樣子做嗎"},{"start":11167.492,"end":11185.961,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上在就朝委員剛才所建議的我們在國小跟國中事實上也都有這個規劃增加這一個逐年增加這一個專任的這個新府就是在選法還沒有完成修訂之前也會先編約預算來提高我們的這些專府的能力學府的能力是嗎是"},{"start":11186.741,"end":11190.744,"text":"好謝謝主席再給我一點點時間我盡快5月3號我們立法院有個兒童日在這邊先感謝陳培宇委員是他提議的這個立法院的兒童日那本期選區的河東國小有到立院來參訪其中有一組學生有一個概念本期覺得非常值得提出來跟我們教育部這邊來討論那這個小學生的提案內容就是說鑒於霸凌等問題頻傳顯見家庭教育的失能"},{"start":11214.56,"end":11221.446,"text":"為補足並建立家庭關係之正向認知的未來孩子在進入義務教育之前家長應強制休息一定時日之輕職教育這個是孩子們提出來的孩子們他們自己本身在這個教育學習的過程裡面他有感受到也許是同儕也許是看到新聞媒體的報導"},{"start":11235.239,"end":11255.852,"text":"也許是同校的學生他覺得說家庭教育跟學校教育都是不可或缺的所以呢他提出了一個這樣子的建議那是不是我們教育部也可以來演繹說這個孩子提出的這樣子的一個建議就是說其實很多教學現場的教師對家庭功能比較缺失的孩子他們在教導上是會有一定難行之處"},{"start":11257.893,"end":11265.938,"text":"那所以說除了家庭學校教育之外呢這個家庭教育的這一塊我們如何來補足是不是說可以來研議讓家長來上這個輕職教育"},{"start":11270.899,"end":11294.89,"text":"感謝委員寶貴的意見,事實上我們目前就有這一個相關的一些家長要接受這一個家庭教育的這個相關的資能是有的那未來要怎麼精進我想我們也會跟地方政府積極的來這一個研議看怎麼樣的精進我們知道這一個家長跟小孩子我常常因為大家很忙那怎麼樣提升他的互動的品質"},{"start":11296.551,"end":11315.707,"text":"我相信這對家庭的功能包括親子的教養都是一個正面的因為真的生教終於原教其實對學生來講我們不管在討論學生輔導或是管教的準則的時候我們還是不能忽略的家庭教育的重要性是是好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝部長請回座好謝謝我們接下來請林一景召委"},{"start":11329.998,"end":11330.982,"text":"謝謝主席 有請鄭部長"},{"start":11338.106,"end":11340.147,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀列席"},{"start":11360.762,"end":11376.032,"text":"不管是委員會的質詢或在總質詢我都一直在唱也就是要設立一個運動的專責部會那麼賴清德在競選的期間就有說他的政見是要成立體育暨運動發展部"},{"start":11378.073,"end":11399.622,"text":"在就職演說的時候他也再次的宣誓所以我本席還是要不厭其妨的再論述一次就為什麼我們要一個專責的部會來處理體育的項目就是因為運動的業務它包含的太多了不管是教育或培養優秀的運動人員以外運動產業的建設跟發展"},{"start":11402.643,"end":11402.923,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11418.877,"end":11418.897,"text":"委員會議員會議員"},{"start":11440.703,"end":11440.843,"text":"委員會曾經跟我答詢說他"},{"start":11458.297,"end":11459.779,"text":"攸前部長也有說教育部辦理體育的相關事務確實有所限制"},{"start":11478.478,"end":11492.871,"text":"因為體育的事務也相當特別那我們要跟國外窗口的那個接口的時候其實會有一些難處喔 如果光是教育部的話那所以賴總統既然已經宣誓喔 所以我想來設立這種體育暨發展 運動發展部就變得是勢在必行 好"},{"start":11500.037,"end":11528.816,"text":"那現在就是說要請教部長的是因為我們了解現在我們的中央行政二級機關已經到頂那要成立這個體育部不曉得您現在有什麼樣的做法是要來修改所謂的這個行政院的這個組織設置條例呢或者是說要另外跟其他的部門合成為部呢這個部分不曉得部長你怎麼想"},{"start":11531.418,"end":11556.11,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們目前在體育署有規劃有多好幾個版本當然也把這樣的一個構想讓行政院到最後去到底要從組織法來修改還是有其他的一些部會之間的一些這個合作我想這我們是有一些規劃的有些規劃然後到時候再送院去裁決所以我剛講的兩種"},{"start":11559.472,"end":11559.852,"text":"7月要在北中南辦座談會"},{"start":11586.537,"end":11601.623,"text":"是我們目前是有這樣的一個規劃是跟體育界辦座談會除了體育界還有來自於社會大眾因為我們希望就陳委員所說的全民運動是讓全民都健康那甚至所帶來的這個運動產業的一個蓬勃發展"},{"start":11604.824,"end":11608.987,"text":"接下來本期想要跟您討論私校小聯考的議題我主要想要跟部長確認一下基本的價值方向"},{"start":11629.239,"end":11652.052,"text":"一部分的私立學校透過入學考試或者是什麼科學營隊啊數理語文這個精英競賽等等透過各種的名目來招生來篩選學生那所以可以說把升學壓力下降到小學生那2021年本席就曾提出要修訂私校法的這個"},{"start":11653.413,"end":11677.528,"text":"的提案想要改善這個亂象那當時潘部長的態度是相當的肯定相當的支持因為他認為國民教育是基礎教育如果私校小聯考的方式還存在那就表示說跟12年國教五大施政理念是有所漢格那到了2023年修改國民教育法的時候我們"},{"start":11678.348,"end":11704.602,"text":"本席再次提出這樣的一個提議那時候有通過國教法有一個附帶決議就是教育部要嚴密修正私校法和執法規範私校不得以測驗、口試、審查成績或任何類似考試的方式來招生可是我們可以看到時至今日還是很多私校持續用考試的方式來招生那甚至"},{"start":11705.522,"end":11705.542,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":11720.899,"end":11746.016,"text":"是一種健康的國民教育升學方式嗎你是否也支持禁止私校小聯考那之前的附帶決議教育部說要規範私校不得已測驗、口試、審查成績等等的類似方式來招生可是我詢問了之前教育部教育部目前的做法得到的答案是提醒"},{"start":11746.676,"end":11763.102,"text":"地方政府應落實督導私校招生用提醒的方式所以看起來你們目前是很消極的在做這件事情那我要詢問就是說我之前提出要修改私校法第39條"},{"start":11764.802,"end":11769.846,"text":"我並且那時候還要求要從審查制改成核定制那不曉得部長您現在的態度怎麼樣是支持這樣的方式嗎"},{"start":11791.721,"end":11797.195,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,我想委員剛才所提的是非常好的一個"},{"start":11798.909,"end":11824.73,"text":"對施校我們感謝施校這個結合民間力量來共同來這個進行這個人才培育可是國民教育特別是小學他絕對不應該用年考用什麼來成為一個入學的一個選擇標準我想這個基本上是違反我們對國民教育的一個在人才培育裡面的方向我們一定要"},{"start":11825.45,"end":11846.076,"text":"在未來我想我們跟地方政府因為國民教育主要還是在地方政府在實施的一些因為我們現在私校法裡面對於私校招生如果超過原額那怎麼樣這個入學方式我們沒有任何的規定所以我想說是不是私校法教育部也可以開始啟動來修私校法"},{"start":11846.838,"end":11847.78,"text":"我相信公權力在"},{"start":11865.522,"end":11892.973,"text":"相對的在這個教育的一個本質裡面我們還是要堅持好謝謝部長的回答最後本期想要跟您討論學校交通車的議題因為今年3月底到4月底新竹跟台北分別都有發生各一起校車交通的事故那造成數十名的學生跟車輛的駕駛受傷那上週台北同一所學校又在同一個地點"},{"start":11893.473,"end":11910.538,"text":"．"},{"start":11911.999,"end":11928.633,"text":"確實進到所謂的管理責任因為根據報導臺北的那一場就是這所學校連續發生兩場同個地點的事故這所學校他甚至沒有依照學生交通車管理辦法把租賃的契約副本"},{"start":11929.454,"end":11932.177,"text":"臺北市交一句備查沒有那各縣市政府照理應該要定期稽查交通車那以臺東市為例他們今年至少稽查了94次可是不合格率有32%"},{"start":11946.135,"end":11976.135,"text":"﹚"},{"start":11976.335,"end":11977.979,"text":"那你們對於各縣市的督導的狀況又是如何?部長"},{"start":11981.492,"end":12006.861,"text":"謝謝委員關心學童的一個安全包括在一個特別關係到生命的這一個安全這沒有絕對不容挑戰所以我相信我們除了繼續喊請地方政府跟學校來按照這個學生交通這個管理的辦法嚴格來執行必要的時候就我的一個想像"},{"start":12007.481,"end":12013.265,"text":"假設地方政府在這個部分沒有真正落實這個許多租賃上的一些辦法的標準的我們不排斥這個對地方的獎補助我們會祭出一些罰則因為我覺得現在是這樣學校端也很有問題"},{"start":12025.072,"end":12040.08,"text":"當然交通車業者也有問題可是因為教育部我們直接對學校端所以我們要督促學校端去要求交通車業者所以我想這部分要請教育部多出力一點就像陳獨民剛所說的就是說你如果"},{"start":12040.78,"end":12046.882,"text":"他們如果確實沒有改善或者說地方的教育局對這些學校端沒有做好好的這個督導那可能您可能會祭出一些公權力做出一些獎補助減少或者我覺得這是好事可是還是請你們要提出具體的辦法好不好"},{"start":12059.006,"end":12078.361,"text":"才會讓這種事情越少減少那最後就是20秒您剛有提到三大對媒體有三大優先推動的政策除了這三大以外像擴大幼兒教保公共化或者健全特殊教育資源等等這兩個問題不曉得您怎麼看"},{"start":12082.062,"end":12082.082,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":12097.142,"end":12097.402,"text":"提供的會議"},{"start":12126.651,"end":12127.832,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲委員"},{"start":12162.317,"end":12164.622,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長好 我們請鄭部長"},{"start":12172.97,"end":12195.781,"text":"部長好,首先想要跟,我想我們這個上禮拜有這個青鳥行動,那這個街道上面各式各樣年輕人的創意,學生們自主地在全台灣發起了這樣子的一個表達自己意見的這個聲量,創意無限,我想這應該都代表說我們過去這幾年在做兒童表意權這件事情其實是有得到一個不錯的一個成果,對不對?"},{"start":12196.941,"end":12216.355,"text":"那我想就是說那我就會針對這個兒童表意權這件事情持續的來做一些討論就是說因為其實在聯合國有規定說兒童是有權利去參與公共事務那在2022年的兒童權利公約國際審查結論性意見其實也有提到說我們中央應該也要提供這樣子的機會給年紀較小的兒童參與"},{"start":12220.038,"end":12233.517,"text":"那這個兒童權利公約裡面保障的兒童其實是未滿18歲以下的兒童跟少年因為我們希望可以更早的讓他們參與這樣子他們長大的時候才會有更好的一個政策討論的一個表現"},{"start":12235.51,"end":12256.495,"text":"但是我看了一下其實當時也有建議說教育部應該要有一個人權工作小組應該來增加兒少代表但我看了一下這個名單是18歲以上都沒有12歲以下所以我想要了解就是在這一端我們從2022年國際審查到現在也將近快要一年半的時間那這個進度現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":12260.84,"end":12278.377,"text":"我們已經完成了這個設置要點的修改將來會加入兒少代表不過就在新聘委員的部分目前還在作業中那大概是什麼時候會這個作業會什麼時候完成呢應該在完成改組之後就會有兒少代表"},{"start":12288.268,"end":12301.476,"text":"我希望就是說我們可以在8月份之後我就會看到18歲以下的兒童一起來參與這些政策的討論那在下一題就是還是回到我自己過去在民間所關心的就是兒童遊戲權這件事情"},{"start":12302.476,"end":12321.846,"text":"這是我們2023年特工盟這個民間組織他其實採訪了北高兩地的兒童那他們就小孩自己說的話就是說他下課跟放學後或是假日都沒有時間遊戲因為他下課的時候呢可能要補血或發血或者是老師會要求他完成體能作業這個體能作業其實跟SH150非常有關係因為SH150希望孩子培養一個運動的習慣嘛"},{"start":12327.108,"end":12334.135,"text":"但是學校通常就叫他們跑操場跟跳繩所以他的大下課時間就要去完成這一項作業他就沒有時間去玩耍"},{"start":12336.263,"end":12358.674,"text":"他自己說他的上學時間比大人的上班時間還要長他放學之後可能要去安親班或者是留在學校的課後班所以他其實不太有時間遊戲在不太有時間遊戲其實是非常影響到孩子的身心健康發展其實在2013年吳沛昌醫師他也做了一個研究"},{"start":12359.674,"end":12388.241,"text":"他說每天增加80分鐘的護腕活動其實是可以將近視力減半這是有顯著的差異他也在世界衛生組織都去發表這些研究的報告所以我就想要了解說我們到底在這件事情上面我們可不可以第一個先檢討SH150它的執行方式到學校落實的面向是不是可以有些調整第二個就是說在新竹其實有一個叫做課後運動班我們是不是可以來規劃一個課後遊戲班讓學校可以來參考來增加遊戲的時間"},{"start":12389.361,"end":12415.668,"text":"第三個,其實在這個國家結論性意見裡面也有講到我們其實應該要去強化家庭教育中心的一個功能性讓家長了解休息、遊戲和休閒對孩子的身心發展的重要性每年要辦理120場次所以針對這三點,不曉得說部長可不可以給我一些回覆"},{"start":12417.288,"end":12438.77,"text":"我非常同意委員所提的尤其事實上對學生創意的想像跟創意的培養是一個非常重要的那我也不容否認我們過去大概月經一晴芳一夕所以很擔心尤其少子化家長們都很擔心他的小孩輸在起跑點上"},{"start":12439.411,"end":12467.602,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":12467.742,"end":12488.802,"text":"身體的健康更重要而且能夠保持一個更長人生的發展是這一個馬拉松他不是只是一個短暫的時分我想部長跟葉次長應該都非常了解就是世界經濟論壇他一直在講未來20年未來30年會消失的工作但是有哪些工作是無法取代的"},{"start":12489.202,"end":12503.616,"text":"但其實跟遊戲非常有關係訓練出來的能力創意這件事情是非常有關係的所以我想請那個部長給我具體的一些回應就是說如果現在沒有辦法也沒有關係但是我們至少認同這個方向但我們可不可以先檢討SH150落實在學校裡的一個狀況因為其實在結論信件也有說我們要去抽查"},{"start":12508.601,"end":12513.502,"text":"第3個現在我們在120場次的一個家庭教育中心規劃的進度跟執行的成效又是什麼那這個部分可以會後給我資料就好了那大概什麼時候這是現在就有資料嗎還是會後要待多久會有這個家庭教育的資料"},{"start":12533.373,"end":12547.151,"text":"委員這個報告我們事實上現在課後的一個照顧安親事實上也不見只是學科他事實上有運動有藝術表演各方面的他相對是活潑的我想部長那個是社團"},{"start":12548.353,"end":12568.831,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":12569.231,"end":12592.025,"text":"部長可以再回去跟可能是署長這邊再做一些討論我們看看實際面上我們可以怎麼樣來處理這個部分那因為時間有限我想我們會後再約個時間來詳細討論好了好謝謝那下一個問題就是說還是回到這個問題就是說因為其實孩子在戶外的空間遊戲時間不足那其實你都在室內你最常會使用的東西就是手機網路成癮這個問題應該大家都非常的清楚了而且學生成癮的這個程度"},{"start":12597.928,"end":12618.349,"text":"是比一般上班族還要來得高而且是逐年加深也有非常多的報告都在說這個網路成癮帶來的一些身心疾患例如像是美國科醫學會就講他會影響到學生的睡眠品質如果減少運動會造成肥胖那也有可能會增加這個語言發展遲緩然後注意力缺失症的這個問題但是我在這個"},{"start":12621.912,"end":12647.508,"text":"之前的院會其實也有講到說我們其實應該要來積極的去做一些相關的建設那像這個奧運他就有講我們現在以前我們可能傳統的奧運跟我們現在奧運的比賽項目其實都越來越有很大的差異像是霹靂舞都進來了衝浪或是2028年洛杉磯奧運還有邀請美式足球其實是越來日新月異活動也越來越有趣那所以"},{"start":12648.248,"end":12671.085,"text":"我是希望我們可以做這件事情但是在2014月16號的時候那時候給我的回文是這樣說就是說根據112年運動現況調查青少年13到17歲運動人口比例達到93.8%對於住家附近運動場所之充足度比率達到69.3%那大部分的人好像都也有一些這些運動的項目"},{"start":12674.08,"end":12684.151,"text":"那這樣看起來就是說好像我們並不需要做這件事情欸但真的是這樣子嗎今年一樣在同樣在今年喔台灣兒校不愛動如果我們前面講都有在動那這一個不就剛剛好打臉我們剛剛講的嗎我們就是不愛動啊我們還"},{"start":12693.642,"end":12711.513,"text":"從2018年到現在我們身體活動量都是F等級根據世界衛生組織的建議量我們根本只有22%的國中生達標高中生甚至只有13.6%我覺得我們缺乏運動的這些場域的規劃而且還有這些特殊性有趣性其實是相對不夠的"},{"start":12713.584,"end":12728.04,"text":"所以我想請教部長或署長來回答都可以就是說我們現在是不是應該真的要認真的回去研擬相關的可行性方案因為這件事情上面就是不及格啦"},{"start":12730.3,"end":12757.843,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒跟指導我想我非常同意我們怎麼樣透過這一個喜多年輕人更喜歡的這些比如說極限運動對沒錯比如說台灣是一個海洋國家我們有更多的水域活動的一個運動的推展我想這都是我們來努力而不會讓年輕人或者學生他覺得有一些只是打球或者停留在陸地上的"},{"start":12758.303,"end":12773.336,"text":"這些東西我們會來努力來跟地方政府看許多的公共空間他能夠release能夠釋放出來然後大家來合作看怎麼樣自己提供青少年或者我們小學生有更有趣的一些運動空間"},{"start":12774.477,"end":12792.157,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長因為其實我前面講的就是時間嘛時間不夠所以我們必須要清出一些時間出來包括跟家長去溝通讓他們有些時間讓小孩去運動但是時間有了場地就要準備好所以這部分就是在麻煩這個部長跟署長因為署長你知道我都一直非常關心這個題目那再來就是說在這個"},{"start":12794.844,"end":12812.812,"text":"自殺率的問題回到青少年自殺率根據這個臺大公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授所發表的一篇研究報告他說校園學生自我傷害的一個常見因素常見的相關因素"},{"start":12813.872,"end":12840.832,"text":"精神疾病都是排名第一的第二個是家庭關係問題不管是在自殺或自傷它都超過了六成所以這個數字其實是非常需要被關注的但是根據我們教育部的一個研究我們自己的統計數字就是說我們的學生自殺跟自傷的整體趨勢是上升的可以看到這條線是持續上升的"},{"start":12842.782,"end":12863.724,"text":"尤其我們來看10歲到19歲蓄意自殺的死亡率也是上升的過去我們可能想的是大學生但是我們忽略了其實國高中生的這一條線也都是在增加的那這一點我覺得現在孩子已經生得很少了每一個孩子我們真的都要好好請全力來照顧"},{"start":12864.765,"end":12877.9,"text":"所以我知道為服務有針對15到30歲有心理智商需求的年輕朋友他們會提供年輕族群的心理健康支持方案讓每個人有三次免費的心理智商那我想從這張數字我們可以看"},{"start":12879.682,"end":12880.202,"text":"請部長回答"},{"start":12898.51,"end":12927.167,"text":"我想我們會來跟衛福部來合作看怎麼樣來也在適時的對我們這些小學生也可以提供一定的程度的心理的一個支持的力量那不曉得這個份的研擬大概是需要多久的時間我們可以再做進一步的討論呢我想我們內部這個盡快來因為這是有價值的一件事情那盡快我們是可以抓一個月嗎還是大概什麼時間您說個時間好了"},{"start":12930.1,"end":12930.5,"text":"請吳村成委員"},{"start":12961.707,"end":12961.848,"text":"有請鄭部長"},{"start":12969.608,"end":12996.129,"text":"委員好部長好我是你的校友中山大學我是第5屆畢業的所以我們算自己人那所以呢當然對你來接任部長我們中山校友會都歡心鼓舞那也期待你有大刀闊斧有所作為"},{"start":12998.17,"end":13023.622,"text":"那這個那個我到立法院來我談了這樣應該快了4個月的時間都在談壯世代那這個為什麼我選擇在教文委員會因為壯世代的核心就是一個文化就是一個教育的問題那當然擴擠到不是未還不是去長照"},{"start":13025.183,"end":13041.619,"text":"所以在這裡重中之重我講了四個月我想在座的這些司長應該耳朵都聽到深淺了對不對但是我看了今天教育部所做的業務報告書是部長上任的報告書裡面"},{"start":13044.266,"end":13069.461,"text":"只有一句話一句帶過第27月樂齡長者學習還是停留在樂齡上我不曉得是下情不能上達沒有跟還是潘部長答應我說要把這個東西答應我很多的事情要移交沒有移交還是說所做的事情部長沒有認同"},{"start":13070.842,"end":13081.936,"text":"那所以這一部分看起來我們需要溝通一下後續的溝通因為現在看起來這個教育部"},{"start":13082.898,"end":13106.185,"text":"對於未來整個社會的樣貌教育部應該扮演的角色是什麼似乎沒有很深刻的去思考我看了這份的報告還是一樣跟過去一樣的做了很多瑣碎的事項但我也跟部長報告就是教育部的事情做不完核心的問題沒有掌握的話這些事情"},{"start":13108.143,"end":13129.617,"text":"只是自私一分了,就是沒有辦法...不過我想有這一次因為包括我們的次長也都更新了所以很多政策沒有延續了不過也不需要延續啦因為展開新局啦對於過去的教育的政策你也不用負責任啦"},{"start":13130.577,"end":13154.783,"text":"你應該要展開新局看到新的東西我們兩位正式張耀萬先生次長還有葉秉成次長都非常的優秀也希望未來能夠有那個首先這個是我不曉得我們教育部有沒有看到這個問題未來往前30年台灣最重要的我一直在講最重要的是民主化"},{"start":13156.269,"end":13168.514,"text":"往後30年台灣最重要的問題是人口學的問題高齡化跟少子化這個表我這四個月也在談這個表1970年代台灣年齡中位數19.3歲2040年是52.4歲"},{"start":13176.251,"end":13181.655,"text":"這國發會做的資料 這不是我做的1970年65歲占人口2.9%2040年65歲占人口30倍"},{"start":13191.403,"end":13206.962,"text":"14歲以下1970年占3939.72040年是10.2翻天覆地教育政策有沒有把這個我整個的看到溝通的四個月我發現所有的部會都停有在1970年代"},{"start":13208.82,"end":13228.661,"text":"用這樣子的一個想像圖在規劃所有的政策如果說是這樣子的話那所有的白做來我們看一下現在我談的不是老人的問題這是年輕的問題我問了很多的大學校長你知道你的學生明年一腳踏出校園一腳就踏進超高齡社會"},{"start":13231.058,"end":13252.837,"text":"五個人就一個65歲當這個孩子30歲的時候2034年台灣一半人口超過50歲當這個孩子40歲的時候一半的人口超過60歲請問這個孩子未來是活在什麼社會部長請問這個孩子未來是活在我們現在教育的大學生未來是活在什麼社會裡面"},{"start":13256.162,"end":13282.087,"text":"陳主委所提的當然是一個高齡的社會我們有在告訴我們的孩子這樣子嗎我問了很多大學校長甚至會說我們都告訴孩子未來是在一個青春無敵的社會如果你的教育方向是這樣子我們培養孩子未來就是要看他到什麼戰場30歲40歲是他的創業不管他要做什麼最重要的如果方向"},{"start":13283.151,"end":13291.626,"text":"都搞錯了你培養的培育的東西你現在所做的這本教育教育白皮書整個政策都方向錯誤你能解決這個社會的問題嗎你能解決這年輕人的問題嗎好好的思考這個問題好不好"},{"start":13297.734,"end":13315.991,"text":"所以整個的社會未來可以預見的如果我們不改選預測的話未來高齡化造成臥床族我們現在平均臥床已經超過8年未來少子化年輕人成為躺平族整個全台灣躺成一片這個責任在教育部重中之重"},{"start":13318.527,"end":13342.521,"text":"但是我們教育部如何的漠視高齡教育這個表你們自己看的就是我們現在就終身教育師預算一年3.4億占教育部預算的0.2%這些人有多少壯世代有800萬人用3.4億平均每一個人一年教育預算40塊40元"},{"start":13348.018,"end":13374.426,"text":"大家都在問這800萬人大家都退休退休做什麼退休以後就沒事做了我們現在想像了你們對一個人的退休有想像嗎像這個校長現在就當部長當然各位但是你有想像現在800萬人沒收不知道往哪裡去政府對這一部分沒有責任嗎我們現在給他們的教育場域就是這個樣子"},{"start":13376.267,"end":13383.395,"text":"所以大家說反正高齡者不想學習啦 進菜就好啦 那有的話就教學習 好好想一下這件事情"},{"start":13384.741,"end":13411.324,"text":"那,所有的課程當中,現在就是六零大學嘛,就是養生養病養老啦基本上是以這個為主啦所以大家難怪這個沒什麼興趣事實上我在推壯世代的運動就是要把引法族翻轉為壯世代我們現在整個政府都停留在引法族思維整個所有的部會我已經溝通過四個月我深深的可以肯定的這樣子說"},{"start":13413.966,"end":13426.773,"text":"連行政院也是這樣子要翻轉成為壯世代不然這些人未來會佔人口的一半壓垮下一代下一代沒有未來你辦的教育沒有未來這是一個整個生態的問題非常簡單的數學問題"},{"start":13431.229,"end":13454.877,"text":"所以我也跟部長講壯世代在我推動四個月當中已經在立法院成立了一個最大的次團 跨黨派的我們有63個立委加入這個次團 200位學者加入這個次團 一致的重視到這個問題要來推動那教育部在這裡面扮演了非常樞紐核心的地方"},{"start":13456.351,"end":13473.963,"text":"那我在跟潘部長的時候提出一個 因為教育部現在最傷腦筋的就是少子化 很多大學要關門 估計要六十所 那大學只有 教育部只有退場機制 我告訴教育部一個 我跟潘部長講一個 說我教你一個大學不用關門的方法"},{"start":13475.212,"end":13497.674,"text":"為什麼大學只有18歲來唸呢?為什麼不是60歲來唸呢?你知道我們現在60歲有600萬人耶,這叫壯世代。壯世代最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學,因為那時候入學率很低。你知道這些人,你如果規劃出一個第三人生大學出來,有多少人要來報名嗎?"},{"start":13499.741,"end":13519.007,"text":"至少300萬人要來報名我講過到處去講的時候每一個人聽了都很興奮還問我說可不可以住校因為他不想回家禮拜六禮拜天再回家所以呢而且這些人掌握台灣三分之的財富也不用教育部補助你就好好的貴大制度出來說我大學不用關門了"},{"start":13522.292,"end":13545.665,"text":"全世界事實上也在走這樣子的路線教育部不要被那些法規綁得死死的就是一定要18歲然後很多的體制所以現在其實包括空中大學聽了以後也出來響應他希望自己成為國民的第三人生大學其實所有在包括很多現在要退場的這些大學是不是可以好好的去輔導"},{"start":13547.526,"end":13562.443,"text":"可以去好好的輔導那潘文忠部長非常現在也告訴我有交代是由次長來成立一個第三人生大學的推動小組我不曉得現在還有沒有存在部長有沒有你知道這事情嗎"},{"start":13564.448,"end":13587.486,"text":"我想第三這個人生大學這個部分我們會積極推動因為陳如委員講的終身學習是一個很重要而且我們不能認為60歲以後他只能等於說學習是什麼但是這個教育部現在這件事情還存在嗎?不是政策有沒有延續啊?因為我跟他談了4個月然後也有很多小組的成立"},{"start":13589.158,"end":13590.919,"text":"所以不要換了改朝換到以後所有事情就是當作"},{"start":13616.533,"end":13643.681,"text":"當作過言一言就不認賬因為這樣子我們前面四個月真的就是對著稻草人空轉了在場在座的很多的市長都知道這事情我們非常認真地推動了四個月那我也緊盯著所以拜託部長你的部署都完全知道這件事情所以要跟部長報告可以嗎可以跟委員報告事實上剛才聽委員的一席話"},{"start":13645.343,"end":13671.657,"text":"讓我這一個事實上振奮人心我簡單的來講大學他不應該大學基本上當然一般來講18歲但是我們現在有一些學校我是鼓勵在未來我們應該要更鬆綁簡單來講在30歲以上超過30幾萬的人口那如果我們能夠重新定位大學他到底要有一些甚至我們會慢慢"},{"start":13673.49,"end":13674.01,"text":"所以現在包括勢力大學的轉型"},{"start":13695.535,"end":13698.297,"text":"謝謝兩位,謝謝吳委員,謝謝部長。不過剛剛吳委員你所提到的退休之後的快樂睡安心吃很好"},{"start":13725.118,"end":13744.963,"text":"來我們節省時間來好謝謝吳委員你的快樂是安心吃你相信我不用等他退休在場所有人都覺得現在就可以希望做這件事好不好來我們現在我們請羅廷偉委員好謝謝主席有請部長不好意思部長"},{"start":13754.448,"end":13755.81,"text":"部長可以喝水沒關係我等你謝謝委員還會有變動嗎"},{"start":13773.919,"end":13775.92,"text":"所以大致抵定了嗎?"},{"start":13802.412,"end":13804.234,"text":"我想這幾個月我們不敢說多厲害啦因為我們畢竟才幾個月齁"},{"start":13821.653,"end":13822.173,"text":"部長你知道夜光天使計劃嗎?"},{"start":13845.111,"end":13867.544,"text":"不好意思時間正在走這個主要是客戶客戶照顧服務對象為低收入單親私親以及隔代教養的經濟弱勢國小學童我想潘文忠部長在任內有承諾我會來推動台中事辦那我想不只你會繼續推動並且如期在下一個學年度在台中事辦嗎"},{"start":13868.624,"end":13890.686,"text":"我想跟委員報告這是潘部長承諾的我們這邊會繼續來 延續來討論好謝謝您那我想葉光天使談完跟部長談一下技職教育公園院科學園區多半不會請高職畢業的人而希望要大學畢業有一般通識教育水準的人部長你認為高職有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":13892.6,"end":13921.562,"text":"我想跟委員報告高職當然還是有存在的必要好 謝謝你剛剛那句話是李遠哲講的所以他主張廢高職前教育部部長黃榮春也證實李遠哲有說過這句話我想當時這句話呢很多包括我們李遠哲談論在這樣子我想教改的一個數位委員都有提到認為高職有其代表性必要性所以不應輕言的廢職"},{"start":13922.563,"end":13933.132,"text":"所以呢費高職沒有寫入總之一報告書也從未形成政策至今高職仍然還存在著其必要的認為那你個人認為李遠哲的論述對照與現在紛紛退場的費高職是誰對誰錯"},{"start":13940.96,"end":13961.68,"text":"習多這個政策當然他有當時的時空因素在李院長當時回國的時候事實上我們那時候的學生每年超過40萬所以習多家長他們認為他們有納稅他希望他的小孩也能夠有機會去讀大學"},{"start":13963.161,"end":13988.328,"text":"那在那個思潮裡邊我們也看到了怎麼樣去讓這些青少年有更多的這些通識的一些基本素養然後產業也在升級怎麼樣去做一個適度的人才培育上的一些調整我想他有他的時空因素我想我知道時空背景不同但是我們希望聽到的是部長對於高職的重視能夠有所表態"},{"start":13989.168,"end":14015.173,"text":"我想瑞士這個國家會強盛靠的是技職教育那台灣呢退場的都是高職部長在教改的30年到現在我們到今天高職沒人要念為什麼沒人要念到底有什麼問題什麼狀況因為念了讀完了無法符合企業界或社會上的一個需求也不保證未來會有工作台灣的技職教育到底何去何從這是我們要探討的我是來自於高職"},{"start":14015.993,"end":14031.23,"text":"我自己也是高職生啊所以我要跟部長說的現階段教育部投入技職的教育在教改30年的今天有哪些成效相關的經費為何有無媒合企業界跟學校建教合作的關係其狀況為何有沒有日益增加部長"},{"start":14031.73,"end":14052.058,"text":"不用現在回答我請在會後我能夠提供更多的資料給我但是部長為何本席關心我們現在的高職技職教育因為這就是夜光天使點燈計畫的一個延伸版在實施教改前對一些經濟弱勢家庭的一個學童我們想要求知上進擺脫貧窮為了減輕家中的一個負擔"},{"start":14056.74,"end":14075.578,"text":"選擇了半工半讀的高職畢業後直接進入職場來奮鬥由黑手成為企業老闆比比皆是也有從實書本並且在讀書讀大學博士也有很多人我比如嘛我們的前立委蔡正元他念機械科然後呢"},{"start":14077.159,"end":14102.705,"text":"念高職考教育部公費留美去哈佛大學甘迺迪學院美國哥倫比亞大學念書所以部長我要講的是我們的態度我想要知道你的態度我們不應該放棄這些人我們的教育政策錯誤忽略了這一群我們希望能夠給予世才世所的教育環境這部分能夠看到您在未來的態度以及有實際的作為嗎"},{"start":14105.388,"end":14132.922,"text":"是的跟委員報告我們確實覺得台灣現在在民生很多的這個第一線上有許多的這些基礎的這個科技人才的培育我們事實上高職在這個部分是扮演很重要的一個角色我們會持續來支持甚至在未來有一些專門的學校而不是剛才委員所提的怎麼樣跟產業能夠連結我相信這個部分是我們未來會持續來努力的"},{"start":14133.622,"end":14159.87,"text":"剛剛我說提供會後的資料再麻煩你要請這個相關單位跟我瞭解一下另外我想跟你請問這個情緒管理課程相關的這些我就不用再多說了就最近的一個案例我們終結有這個隨機傷人殺人的一個事件那校方有稍微提到關於這個學生在123年級表現正常也有達到醫院實習的表現標準"},{"start":14161.05,"end":14186.231,"text":"未料在四年級呢醫院實習的狀況出現狀況我想而停止了實習這個是他個人的一個狀況我們不便多談但是我想要了解的是我們近年來隨著社會壓力增加心理健康問題的一個普遍開始產生了一些問題包括智商自殺以及相關的案件越來越多我想對於情緒管理對於學生的一個整體發展"},{"start":14186.972,"end":14213.904,"text":"健康至關重要根據世界衛生組織所提供的相關資料我們可以看到全球每年約有20%的青少年面臨心理健康的問題其中很大一部分就是由於缺乏有效的情緒管理技能所致所以本席認為這個情緒管理的課程不僅對於我們學校的學生應對日常生活的壓力還能顯著的減少暴力行為心理問題可以有"},{"start":14215.325,"end":14225.809,"text":"很著作的一個幫助我想情緒管理課程設置以重視的一個程度不曉得在這個部分您可以表態嗎可以給予我們具體的一個相關實際的政策嗎"},{"start":14228.537,"end":14248.951,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個指教本來這個推動校園的心理健康我們就有許多的一些促進計畫包括社會情緒的這些的管理的許多的小團體也好或者班級的一些經營怎麼樣去融入我相信那都是我們目前在做一個非常重要的也希望能夠讓"},{"start":14250.652,"end":14255.016,"text":"所以我說部長請問未來有計劃在這個中小學情緒管理課程來做設置嗎是否考慮將情緒管理課程納入學校的必修課程的一個考慮"},{"start":14274.511,"end":14276.892,"text":"我想教師的部份教育部是否可以引入更多的培訓項目幫助老師做情緒管理的教案"},{"start":14290.96,"end":14311.929,"text":"我想108課綱注重了一個全能教育包括社會情緒的學習已經被放在裡面其中裡面還包括自我察覺自我管理以及社會察覺人際技巧以及承擔決定我想自我察覺正好就是契合了108課綱對學生全面的一個追求進而去培養我們學生的核心素養"},{"start":14312.529,"end":14331.548,"text":"我想本席希望教育部要重視這個部分讓情緒管理能夠儘速的全面普及我們一起加油這個部分可以嗎當然我也要檢討這個潘部長的一些教育政策的一個落實進度我想跟你能夠做一個探討我想在聊未來的一個施政願景我們也要先從過去的一個政策來做一個相關的檢討"},{"start":14332.349,"end":14361.294,"text":"因為還是有一些事情還沒有要做到以及準備要做的我們應該還是要看看包括之前有說的要補助公立國中小的一個冷氣電費但是後來呢4月漲了電價有媒體報導說班班有冷氣機但是班班不敢開冷氣還有一些某些國小的老師拒絕開冷氣電扇僅能開10分鐘這是媒體報導我不知道但是請問部長有實際達成補助的初衷嗎"},{"start":14362.785,"end":14389.696,"text":"我們現在在跟委員報告一般性的這個電費的補助我們一年有12億好這一次動長這個校園電價我想教育部也有幫忙但是我要說的斑斑有冷氣以及深深有平板後面牽扯到就是電費電價到底會不會變成是家長要買單以及我們當初補助的初衷我們要持續的來關注再來就是我們的營養午餐法制化"},{"start":14390.436,"end":14397.749,"text":"我想這個部分已經有立法院已經有17個草案待排審就是吃等不到教育部的草案請問什麼時候"},{"start":14405.149,"end":14407.09,"text":"請問有沒有大概一個時間表?這個會期 初步已經完成兩次審查了"},{"start":14422.614,"end":14445.592,"text":"好 我們希望能夠加速那接下來是教育部承諾的要在3年內逐年調整幼兒園師生比1到121比12的一個目標並且提前達成的話會給予獎勵本席想請問一下教育部部長是目前的進度為何是超前還是落後現在獎勵是否足以鼓勵幼兒園改善師生比您這部分有掌握嗎"},{"start":14447.227,"end":14466.478,"text":"我們目前大概這個希望能夠在114年公共化幼兒園在114學年度能夠達到可以達成師生比試到1比12當然我知道這個是我們的逐年在做的一個目標但是我講實際的啦您聽聽看部長"},{"start":14468.379,"end":14494.58,"text":"我認真跟你希望降低師生比1比12其實乾脆一點我們是逐年要給予更高額的一個補助讓他們想要在今年就做那這就是我們先加強補助嘛所以我講的只要能在114年達到師生比可調整到位1比12的就給予調整收費數額或者是給予更高額的一個補助讓我們的家長"},{"start":14495.481,"end":14511.127,"text":"原所以及教育部的政策能夠三贏我想如果調整數額會讓我們感受到會不會讓家長有損失我們可以給予更高額的補助讓他們願意提前嘛如果在114年達不到的"},{"start":14511.847,"end":14537.109,"text":"我想這個部分我們就要給予部分的檢討甚至115年達到才達到的我們甚至就是遞減持續的遞減持續的補助遞減收費數額檢討我想這才是一場公平的競爭公平的法則現在搞得亂七八糟我想這個部分能不能給予更高的一個補助更高的一個協助這部分您覺得呢"},{"start":14538.39,"end":14562.412,"text":"我想我們目前確實是公幼跟准公幼還有一般私立學校他有一些不同的一些期程那我想我們在我們這個會後我們的這個委員會裡邊再來細部的因為目前我們還是有看到有降低師生比1比12的原所已經達成的喔那人家先達成的都笨蛋"},{"start":14563.442,"end":14564.323,"text":"我同意委員應該給予支持和獎勵"},{"start":14594.363,"end":14610.345,"text":"因為今天是10分鐘加2分鐘我想給每個委員20分鐘都應該是一樣的好來謝謝羅廷萬委員謝謝部長那我們接下來先來處理臨時提案那我想我們目前為止有委員提出臨時提案共6案我們請宣讀"},{"start":14612.557,"end":14636.263,"text":"有鑑於體育署升格成立體育運動發展部為各政黨共事主張拜卿的總統就職演說提及將成立體育及運動發展部為落實該政策主張教育部與體育署應定定推動時間表與各項進程細節並於兩個月內回復立法院教育文化委員會提案人林倩琦克之和洪孟凱第二案有鑑於巴黎奧運將於7月26日結幕"},{"start":14638.343,"end":14654.51,"text":"選手順利於7月18日開放選手入主為能讓我國代表隊伍及選手無後顧之憂先全力參賽請外交部交通部教育部及體育署從航空機位交通運輸到行李服裝裝備等需求應做好安全準備並隨時檢視與主動追蹤"},{"start":14658.212,"end":14679.172,"text":"對於各屆遊戲有關因戰事需提防恐攻事件：也因爲與籌謀防範未然進行假設性的各種沙盤推演以上各項進度與資訊請於兩週內回復立法院教育文化委員會提案人林倩琦克之恩洪孟凱第三案有鑑於開放陸生來台確實能對於大學退場倒閉潮有所注意"},{"start":14680.073,"end":14700.41,"text":"賴清澤總統就職演說提及恢復中國學位生來台教育部鄭部長也強調未來將落實賴總統政策讓兩岸的年輕人有更健康互用機會以及更多學習認識有助於瞭解彼此這將是一個好的發展為避免恐慌不實建起教育部開誠布公積極推進四步驟"},{"start":14702.353,"end":14717.737,"text":"請教育部因經濟核定而啟動．落實學衛生來台政策．並於一個月內回復立法院教育文化委員會第二月年限及各職公盲改．第4案建議足球青年聯賽之推動發展部分．雖為國內家長與基層球員所期盼．"},{"start":14721.278,"end":14744.034,"text":"然回顧本案由體育署指定補助中華足協辦理之歷程．可發現中華足協在賽程賽務與社會溝通上．均呈現消極被動狀態．仿若本案為體育署強迫執行之業務．同時體育署亦無認可約束監督之能力．致使家長失望喪失正補．原先補助美育"},{"start":14744.975,"end":14768.143,"text":"原因要求教育部針對而後有關青年足球聯賽之補助或委辦均因採公開說明方式以競爭行經費執行相關預算補助提供賽務辦理單位自我精進與強化溝通改善問題之動力落實政府協助美意提案人曾配慾郭益勤承受保固配意第5萬"},{"start":14769.343,"end":14793.057,"text":"針對我國運動禁藥防治基金會建議傳出因利益衝突迴避問題致使世界反禁藥組織來含爭議查體育署近年年度均編列超過3000萬元委辦費用然在相關問題之掌握與監督卻付之確如導致該組織內控風險在本次事件後更為提高"},{"start":14794.372,"end":14818.184,"text":"原請教育部一個院內針對下列事項啟動調查：並向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告因現行禁藥防止基金會所有人員與社址之可能利益衝突風險二如我國因基金會違規遭瓦解處罰而導致我國所有協會與選手受到不利處分時體育署研擬的作為及SOP"},{"start":14819.384,"end":14844.896,"text":"3、本次事件禁藥防治基金會與WADA所有往來的信件及事件處理時間軸4、體育署就運動禁藥防治基金會之監督機制委辦經費用途與測競作為5、5月3日禁藥防治基金會董事長、體育署派員名單與召請出會議理由6、巡迴就職行長辭職聲明下架原因"},{"start":14846.096,"end":14860.924,"text":"復建一期評估成立行政法人國家運動禁藥管制中心可行性提案人陳培玉郭益勤吳培益陳秀寶第6案教育部體育署成立11年未辦理全國體育業務而面對國際體育運動發展潮流發展運動產業有其必要"},{"start":14866.727,"end":14889.962,"text":"亦為賴清德總統體育政見中成立體育界運動發展部原因之一．並提出體育預算突破新台幣200億元等政見．原建請教育部體育署可參佐強化社會甲組棒球隊組訓實施計畫．鼓勵各縣市投入其他單項運動之社會甲組球隊．"},{"start":14893.243,"end":14916.695,"text":"後時該單項運動競技人才．並具體提出能讓更多企業參加之誘因．讓企業能從民間創業器材研發教練增能．外籍教練協助用而運動體驗等加以投入．使企業能做相關意願．結合扶持運動產業來協助其選手及運動有更多元素．"},{"start":14917.475,"end":14937.668,"text":"是信之發展提案委員陳培宇 郭益勤 張雅琳 吳佩奕 蘇喬蔚宣的完畢好我們先來處理喔然後我們看第一案提案委員有沒有提出說明的您簽字委員要不要提出說明我們就這樣子OK然後教育部這邊"},{"start":14940.286,"end":14961.395,"text":"謝謝主席這個第一案我們就配合辦理好那我們就是照案通過那第二案提案委員第二案林倩琦委員有沒有提出說明沒有好那教育部這邊我們也配合辦理好那我們就照案通過那第三部分林倩琦委員沒有好沒有要說多多說明教育部"},{"start":14967.475,"end":14972.941,"text":"根據報告我們也配合辦理好配合辦理那我們就照案通過那第4案陳培宇委員我想先勸一下部長這邊的回應"},{"start":14982.54,"end":14999.691,"text":"這裡邊跟委員報告我們是不是能夠在第三行的後半段仿若本案到第四行的同時這能夠把它刪除然後修正這個體育署因強化把這個義無認可這幾個字刪除"},{"start":15002.313,"end":15002.573,"text":"主席"},{"start":15022.265,"end":15037.252,"text":"不好意思部長剛剛您的幕僚來溝通的時候前面那一段要修正了我沒有意見但是現在說要把以競爭型經費執行相關預算補助刪掉的原因可不可以請相關還是署長說的沒問題"},{"start":15038.573,"end":15066.333,"text":"我想因為青年聯賽從上個會期有不少的委員希望能夠我們去協助足球協會在辦理青年聯賽這件事情去做補助那我們也的確蠻強化這部分但是的確他們在去年舉辦的情況的確沒有很多地方沒有達到家長的這個期待那但是畢竟青年賽他還是屬於足球協會自己的賽事而且他也是一個特定體育團體那是不是容許委員這邊我們去組成一個任務小組去加強他的輔導事實上我們也在將在這幾天會"},{"start":15067.894,"end":15090.434,"text":"召開一個會議由您教授幫我們一起來整個檢視他整個的賽制以及他的執行的方式我們是不是可以在今年還是用輔導的角度來去強力的去介入去他的賽制符合我們家長的這個期待因為畢竟這個賽制還是屬於足協自己的那當然我們也可以說不要補助但是我覺得這樣也不好啦我們是不是能更正面一點來處理這件事情"},{"start":15091.455,"end":15113.217,"text":"剛剛我有看到張亮次長有點頭我想說署長你自己剛剛也有公開說明確實竹協在去年從本來應該去年半相關的很多爭議我覺得他不只是家長滿不滿意而是我想署長你一定也非常清楚然後我相信司要委員應該也很清楚因為在司要委員的選區也有相關的社區的隊伍"},{"start":15113.757,"end":15137.202,"text":"那大家都知道小孩不要只送進體育班其實在社區聯賽裡面其實也比較呼應後續賴總統希望體育署升級對於體育發展運動部的想像關於社區聯賽或者是俱樂部或者是產業的部分我覺得必須要把這個觀念再放進來所以我們才會希望不要只有在讀後足協那當然我也認同因為它確實是一個"},{"start":15138.602,"end":15138.742,"text":"報告員：我們"},{"start":15157.208,"end":15183.813,"text":"也有補助其他的團體跟政府在聯賽的部分都有但是我指的是青年聯賽這個部分我好對不起我重說如果還是要在青年聯賽這個部分你們還是希望有足協來主辦然後你們是補助經費的角色但是你願意強化監督的功能還有輔助他們把相關的行政業務還有跟家長溝通甚至賽程的安排我想署長您非常清楚"},{"start":15184.473,"end":15207.521,"text":"賽程的安排他到底是盃賽的心情在排聯賽還是他真的是聯賽的心情在排聯賽那個差別很大我想署長你的專業一定可以理解我今天要再次在公開錄影強調這件事情所以我目前今天的版本我願意接受調整我看到體育署的善意可是我要再次強調也要真的拜託次長這件事情他真的已經有很大很大的民怨了那"},{"start":15207.901,"end":15234.974,"text":"在所有的社區聯賽的粉專或者是家長社團當中大家看不見那個體育署更好的想像跟可能性所以我們才會提出這個臨時提案好嗎包委員我也增加一點就是說基本上除了主席的這個前年聯賽當然其他的單位如果願意舉辦類似同年齡層的我們也都會去盡可能去支持當然還要考慮到他們會不會太多比賽之類的但是這部分我們不排除"},{"start":15236.134,"end":15258.564,"text":"就像剛剛次長提醒的其實很多民間的單位自己已經出錢出力做了其實去年非常多非常多精彩的比賽自己出錢出力了所以如果你們真的也願意站在支持社區聯賽然後支持社區運動俱樂部的概念我們當然都支持我相信立法院在預算上絕對支持那是不是就再確定一次文字的修正就是那一段拿掉可是你們會加強相關的輔導跟監督"},{"start":15260.976,"end":15261.036,"text":"第5案"},{"start":15277.31,"end":15303.918,"text":"是不是也請我們鄭署長先說明一下第5案有需要改變嗎?對 包委員就是針對委員北議委員提的第7條評估成立行政法人的運動禁藥管制中心的可行性我很清楚這目前只是委員只是要求我們評估啦但是我還是跟委員這邊對已經報告也就是說基本上我們現在還是很擔心說有國家介入的情況因為在要檢這件事情這一次的"},{"start":15305.278,"end":15330.609,"text":"要檢組織他們對外界產生的這個疑慮就是因為這件事情他們有懂事有去兼很多一些政府相關的職務或是訓練相關的職務那我今天如果用行政法人在一個類公務體系的方式來成立那豈不是更令人擔心所以這件事情是不是能請委員能夠考慮這部分我們是不是可以刪除"},{"start":15334.059,"end":15340.462,"text":"好但是我先說那其他我們之前因為在質詢的時候也討論過然後我們辦公室助理也很認真跟體育署討論過目前我們所有擔心可能會影響選手出賽權益的風險是不是署長這邊也都有在積極的進行相關監督是沒有錯"},{"start":15349.386,"end":15372.127,"text":"那所以我們裡面包含提的下架聲明的原因然後相關招請出會議的理由或者是更強烈的監督機制確保選手權益這件事情因為我想署長你自己也非常清楚我們台灣當年之所以要自己成立這個這個相關的機構法人就是因為中國在挖打的影響力很大那我們自己有自己的機制來處理這件事情那我覺得"},{"start":15372.808,"end":15372.828,"text":"報告員．"},{"start":15390.001,"end":15406.7,"text":"1到6基本上我們都同意 我們也的確會有順便報告只是說第7點因為還是有利益衝突的可能性啦所以這部分請 評估啊 可以沒有問題 評估啊 不可行就不可行啊我剛剛說我沒有堅持 只是說我先跟委員報告有這樣子的疑慮 我也沒有正面要求你一定要只是評估啊 是是是"},{"start":15408.815,"end":15427.872,"text":"好,所以怎麼樣,趙委員的意見7條都保留,照案通過嗎?可以嗎?配合辦理,好,那你們剛剛講了3分50秒,OK,好,來,我們就照案通過,來,我們第6案,來,培育委員,對不起,這是,對,提案人,誰要說明一下?都可以嗎?欸,哈囉,第6案"},{"start":15433.926,"end":15434.407,"text":"我們請吳思瑤委員時間4分鐘"},{"start":15464.67,"end":15465.892,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請部長來,謝謝部長"},{"start":15474.882,"end":15496.629,"text":"這個是我過去9年關心的事情我只有4分鐘新任的部長我想我們過去也都有很多對話那我聚焦在高教的部分未來國教會在受教育您高教部分四大重點我會提出重點未來逐一希望您列入重要的施政方針我會逐一在後續繼續來跟您來討論推進第一個就是國際教育專法的立法"},{"start":15501.75,"end":15522.781,"text":"第2個是思瑤倡議很久那謝謝大家現在都跟上來了校園新府制度的全面提升第3個也是吳思瑤發起的新宿舍運動2.0好還要更好第4個就是催生青年基本法的立法思瑤也是立法院第1個來推出專法的立委我會持續來跟大家合作下一頁"},{"start":15523.701,"end":15542.82,"text":"所以我看到您長期觀察您您有很多的理念跟我長期的倡議很一致比如說我一直在說大學退場之外整病三種方式公私病不要放棄這樣子的可行性第二個我一直在說台灣要作為國際教育的一個很重要的國家所以您今年也有"},{"start":15543.26,"end":15561.502,"text":"再往美國區域由中山大學跟美國四校來簽訂MOU您作為大學校長的鄭英耀都做得很到位現在您的身份轉變為部長下一頁有更大的能量所以我再次提出不好意思我今天只能夠講述我的重點可能您再回去會後做研議"},{"start":15562.623,"end":15589.195,"text":"三件齊發高教的轉型第一端當然是退場跟整病所以退場我們已經立法在進行整病的部分公病公私病私都有一些案例公病私我希望鄭英耀部長可以依您過去鄭英耀校長的一些倡議持續不放棄去研議所有的可行性他畢竟是一個solution一種可行性第二請看我右下角來回來也就是"},{"start":15592.708,"end":15619.243,"text":"回流教育跟終生學習是我們開放式大學雙軌推動很重要的一個方向也要持續去做我認為過去只做了一半沒有持續的大破大立第三軌就是發揮臺灣國際教育以及海外學習不管input或output我們都有很大的能量所以催生國際教育的專法這是對於高教轉型的三件啟發缺一不可請您記錄下來好下頁"},{"start":15621.264,"end":15636.297,"text":"所以台灣可以利用教育來成為在世界國家軟實力輸出的以教育成為一個國家新品牌有很多的理由我會後都會提供給您我想這請您過去的國際教育專法推了4年多沒頂沒擋連一個嘗試推出的立法都沒有您個人覺得有沒有這個必要有沒有這個可行性下一頁部長國際教育專法"},{"start":15651.152,"end":15668.418,"text":"我想跟委員報告國際專法是不是要這個設置在我的看法就是怎麼樣去支持我們大學在國際教育上國際學術交流上能夠達到一個正向的一個我想我們會全力來支持"},{"start":15669.318,"end":15677.104,"text":"部長我先點出來我這裡總整出我認為臺灣需要一部國際教育專法的很多理由我希望後續也能夠有專案報告我們再進一步來論述請您記錄下來好嗎好下一頁再來謝謝您我在2022年10月20率先質詢所有的公立大學校長首先倡議要來進行大學的心理駕而中山大學就是第一個司要還沒質詢先就先做了你們跟實踐好下一頁"},{"start":15697.76,"end":15724.397,"text":"所以這幾年來學生踴躍的來倡議發聲下一頁所以呢從當初我質詢前的兩校現在有43校非常好持續來支持各大學推進好下一頁那高中已經向下延伸了目前42個學校來試辦那高中端叫做身心調適下也請部長持續來協助好嗎這時間很急迫啊這個我壓力好大我需要身心調適這樣好下一頁"},{"start":15726.909,"end":15734.052,"text":"提醒您學生輔導法未修之前我們用預算來補貼目前國立學校21校私立大學51校已經能夠做到1比900的緣額未修法前有國立大學13校私立大學28校做到1比1000換言之還有三兩成多的學校沒有跟上來繼續去follow他好嗎ok好下一頁"},{"start":15750.18,"end":15762.656,"text":"這是我整體對於大學新府制度的一個完整論述我也會一併提供給新任部長好持續來推動好下一頁那新宿舍運動目前加入的大學是65%我們4件起發從1.0到2.0下一頁"},{"start":15768.283,"end":15784.096,"text":"我請部長持續支持新宿舍運動的2.0持續擴大學生的參與讓使用者的需求可以被實踐好下一頁那麼要提點給您的就是我爭取了第一次的五年五十億是1.02.0陳建仁院長同意編列五年33億我希望您有幾個精進的做法請看最下方就是從一校一案要延伸到一校多案有些學校不是只有一棟宿舍嗎"},{"start":15795.845,"end":15821.683,"text":"第2個經費的加碼從本每床4.2萬提升到5.2萬第3個那是因為公共工程的這個經費提升第3個從改善公共空間到進入寢室空間的改善最後一個多元功能的置入包括心腹諮商的功能可不可以在宿舍實踐性別友善跟育兒友善要在各校實踐這些等於都是加分題只要各校提出這樣的方案他就可以通過審查小組願意"},{"start":15823.965,"end":15823.985,"text":"拍攝﹚"},{"start":15839.878,"end":15839.898,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":15868.675,"end":15883.044,"text":"我也讓你充分表達所以我很民主好不好謝謝謝謝部長好接下來我們請鄭天才委員同樣時間4分鐘主席各位委員有請部長部長"},{"start":15901.136,"end":15927.21,"text":"來部長好今天的這個教育部的報告特別提到這個族群共榮的原民教育提了這個六大項都非常非常的重要但是很可惜原住民教育的向上提升這裡面都沒有提到讓部長來了解這個我已經提了很多次"},{"start":15928.82,"end":15945.812,"text":"近五年,原住民大專校院學生的出在學歷,這個差距越來越大。部長你看一下,107學年度,差距,原住民跟全國的差距是31.9,現在111學年度,差距是32.4,還拉大,拉大。"},{"start":15953.888,"end":15972.23,"text":"中華民國憲法徵修條文第10條第12項規定國家對原住民的教育應該要保障輔助及發展原住民族教育法民國87年就制定了原住民族教育法"},{"start":15973.135,"end":16002.236,"text":"這裡面特別提到政府應依原住民組織民族意願保障原住民教育之潛力便宜原住民首席的人才以利原住民族發展原住民族教育法第23條規定高級中等以上學校應保障原住民學生入學及就學的機會剛看了那個差距32%點多這個差距真的是非常大"},{"start":16004.689,"end":16009.906,"text":"這個原住民生血保障辦法95年的時候修正了"},{"start":16011.055,"end":16039.155,"text":"跟部長說明原住民的身血保障本來沒有所謂的外加只要加分之後就可以進去那因為後來95年改為外加之後外加2%所以我們很多的學生就去念私立的大學私立的大專校院去念的話就很貴我們的經濟又沒有辦法負擔這是一個很大的因素之一那我們看所以我在這個"},{"start":16042.157,"end":16059.24,"text":"當立委之後特別協調教育部當初修正了這個保障辦法特別提高特別增加了條文可以專案調高比例可以專案調高比例這法律法規已經明定了"},{"start":16060.68,"end":16066.542,"text":"當初質詢葉俊隆部長特別開始規劃專案調高5%所以從108年協年度開始就有專案調高5%經過幾年之後不斷不斷的要求一個一個增加科系但是這個科系還是很少"},{"start":16088.154,"end":16112.114,"text":"啊,專案調高5%的科系還是很少所以為辦理專案調高的科系有整個學校有67所總共1102個系所現在很多的學校啊都招不招不足學生呢為什麼不專案調高5%呢讓我們整個"},{"start":16117.307,"end":16144.437,"text":"原住民大專學生的出債協力的差距反而越來越大這個是部長你上任之後應該第一個要去解決的是這個問題對不對大學不是現在找子女化嗎為什麼不讓我們我們何況也不占一般的學生的名額啊對不對現在就外加都全部改外加嘛所有的建議"},{"start":16145.836,"end":16145.856,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":16165.885,"end":16166.165,"text":"五十六點五"},{"start":16181.499,"end":16181.959,"text":"那另外﹖"},{"start":16198.384,"end":16212.856,"text":"這個5%這個部分我想那是沒有問題目前我們在大學院校有8.38%然後基礎院校提供6.62%但是我們原住民學生看起來報考演第一"},{"start":16213.556,"end":16240.345,"text":"我們這個提供的名額所以這個部分我想怎麼樣去協助嚴明的同學能夠更順利的在這個大學裡邊他選擇他喜歡的相關科系我想這比較更細節的部分我想我們可以來我的最好的處理方式就是把升學保障辦法外加百分之二全部改為外加百分之五就可以解決這個問題好不好"},{"start":16242.587,"end":16243.289,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":16265.919,"end":16277.695,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關省官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生而有請鄭部長和我們彭署長好鄭部長跟彭署長謝謝"},{"start":16283.466,"end":16295.595,"text":"部長好 署長好 很開心在這裡見到鄭部長但是我看到您的業務報告我真的更開心了我在這第5頁裡面看到幾個題目活化校園 把閒置空間變成實作空間統一金融專長師資 集中聘用 然後巡迴資源"},{"start":16301.479,"end":16319.885,"text":"實驗中學提供員工子女及鄰里學區和實驗中學的雙語部提升學生運能力以師培大學來協助教師提升雙語教學能力部長短短一夜把我過去在教委會跟過去在當屏東縣副縣長"},{"start":16321.765,"end":16339.002,"text":"這些非都地區的地方國民教育需求都一網打盡了謝謝但是我還是要強調幾個地方就是我在4月11號的時候呢針對評科時鐘謝謝我們教育部的支持我出來引進太空課程之後我希望能夠融入一個思維就線上課程有遠距生"},{"start":16340.023,"end":16363.234,"text":"我們的學籍生是以在學區裡面入學的學籍生我希望創設一個遠距生他的學籍還在原校但他可以用遠距的方式來參與學習第二個海外師資的遠距教學我們不要只限定在國內或偏鄉的老師用遠距教學讓其他縣市甚至國外的師資也可以來擔任偏鄉的老師您覺得這個方向可以研究嗎"},{"start":16364.739,"end":16373.465,"text":"我想怎麼樣去統合這一個資源來提升我們的人才培育的品質跟機會這個當然都是值得努力的"},{"start":16395.839,"end":16400.6,"text":"但是我仔細算了一下嚴格來講這個策略在六都或是在新竹市是有效但是呢如果把這個錢換算成給非都地區的"},{"start":16419.685,"end":16434.349,"text":"其實你會發現如果你去補足我們非都地區的幼兒園教師他所需要的差額下一頁他的人事費反而比他們所得到的家長的幼兒金補助要來得更有效益這邊要花120億這邊只要花40億再下來其實什麼原因因為公"},{"start":16439.793,"end":16467.356,"text":"民間業者他因為市場規模他集中在都會地區反而偏鄉地區非山非市他不會去因此你們發現大部分的民間業集中在六都往下看所以非山非市他們沒有要去所以這個地區的學家長的需求他需要公立的學校來提供再往下看但是因為我們目前有一個情況我們在非都地區非山非市的國小婦幼我們沒有提供課後照顧"},{"start":16468.337,"end":16489.13,"text":"所以他不像有安親班都會有安親班所以家長要兩段式而且找不到業者所以乾脆把孩子哪裡從偏鄉送到都會地區結果是什麼原因往下看結果政府給他教育補助他反而拿到更高的都會地區去消費而且在國小的幼教沒辦法維持再往下看"},{"start":16490.134,"end":16501.951,"text":"所以幼兒園的園區他考量到這是私幼的私幼的家長的補貼之後他去分更高的資金租金再往下看所以另外我們幼教的從業人員"},{"start":16503.683,"end":16522.588,"text":"民間的非公幼的幼兒園雖然業者得到了大量透過家長的補貼的這些收入但是呢錢都花在哪裡發在房租上他們的薪資普遍不高再往下看所以我們偏鄉或非山非市的地方真的很難找到私資再往下看所以我建議一個關鍵點"},{"start":16524.969,"end":16553.075,"text":"我們用專案10年契約禁用這個概念是來自於國防部我們的基層職職軍官我們基本上就是不要讓他用那個軍校出來的終身職的那個志願軍官我們用一個契約的方式來禁用是否可以考慮根據我們幼教法第22條他可以根據勞基法來禁用禁用之後他也可以做課後的照顧可以延長課後的托育那這種情況下你只要給他足夠的薪水"},{"start":16553.675,"end":16557.46,"text":"他願意到偏鄉去服務先講到這裡部長你覺得這個方案可以考慮嗎我想我們來看跟地方怎麼樣來合作其實不是地方的需求你要溝通的其實兩個單位一個是主計總處"},{"start":16569.926,"end":16573.127,"text":"主席總署同不同意用10年的預算規模方式去用勞基法經用一個10年的契約,那有什麼好處呢?我很簡短的說一下,因為主席在看,往下看。我們各地偏鄉,我們屏東陸續在廢校。"},{"start":16589.753,"end":16605.981,"text":"﹗"},{"start":16606.101,"end":16620.369,"text":"因為你如果沒有留住這些偏鄉的學齡前孩子國小一定要廢校因為如果他在學齡前跟著父母阿公阿嬤顧不了跟著父母的工作地到都會地區去寄那他就不會再回到偏鄉來念國小了"},{"start":16621.73,"end":16647.128,"text":"反而偏鄉其實還能提供教育品質是很好的最後一頁所以我希望說另外呢我們也讓這些專案教保人員可以培養二項專長未來可以作為我們國小教師的儲備軍因為現在我們未來的國小教師會面臨到很嚴重的人才斷層現在平均年齡每年在升高為什麼欲缺不補所以呢會老化會造成我們四培大學造不到生也會造成流浪教師找不到工作最後一個結論下一頁就沒有了就拜託你好好做謝謝"},{"start":16652.725,"end":16667.159,"text":"好,謝謝部長,謝謝中央兵委員各位,我們現在這一次是我們立法院是研會所以我們會常常請教育部來我們這邊好不好所以各位還是有很多機會的現在是1點08分的各位把握時間好,接下來部長,好吧那你就喝口水"},{"start":16676.446,"end":16677.007,"text":"范芸委員"},{"start":16688.353,"end":16704.378,"text":"謝謝委員部長午安今天算是您第一次來我們教文委員會備詢我想剛剛很多委員問了您很多議題我今天比較是想要針對大方向上跟您交換意見所以沒有什麼可怕的問題要問您"},{"start":16707.93,"end":16732.47,"text":"那第一個我想您應該有看到新聞我有看到剛剛委員也問過您要做的三件事那我想您要做的三件事都蠻好的那我在潘部長最後一次備詢的時候我有問他說潘部長有哪三大修法是您想完成卻未完成的就是未盡之業那不知道您有沒有看到這個新聞鄭部長"},{"start":16735.447,"end":16753.528,"text":"是跟委員報告有那您知道他講的那個三大他想要修但是來不及完成的法是哪三法嗎答錯沒關係我只是想說不曉得您知不知道一個是應該是學生心理對學夫法那一個是青年"},{"start":16757.34,"end":16760.721,"text":"我主要印象比較深刻的是在心理輔導法沒有應該跟委員報告我基本上是有一些訊息我並沒有充分掌握是"},{"start":16775.267,"end":16775.847,"text":"學生輔導法 營養午餐條例 大學法"},{"start":16793.514,"end":16805.302,"text":"判補長當時的這三大未完成的重要法案跟我的看法完全一樣我之前沒有跟判部長套過招他就是在最後一次回應的我想因為您剛上任也蠻需要時間了解的我認為就是判部長講的這三大法案"},{"start":16813.388,"end":16839.255,"text":"真的蠻重要的也是目前就是還蠻需要的那教育部也需要準備那所以部長您是不是可以承諾就是會展開布板的工程我知道有些你們已經有準備了有些還沒有準備了因為對我們來講我們委員都有版本在立法院裡面一讀通過但是蠻需要教育部全盤的考量到時候一起討論的話我想那個修法可行性才會最高"},{"start":16841.442,"end":16857.459,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心那潘部長當時所提到的這個學生輔導法營養午餐條例以及大學法我想他確實都是我們現在對教育學校教育裡邊從不同面向共同關心的一些議題我們會來努力"},{"start":16858.86,"end":16877.81,"text":"好那就請那個教育部積極努力那能夠及早在準備好的情況下提出來那今天我另外想就三大主軸跟三大教育階段跟您交換意見那對我來講我一直看待教育的話第一個教師權益教師權益沒有顧好的話教育就很難做好"},{"start":16881.732,"end":16907.25,"text":"學生的受教權如何讓學生安心學習第三個就是我們的制度環境教育階段我想您也非常了解我們有高教就是我們新來的次長還有國教兩位都會協助您高教國教另外還有教育部還有一個右教所以我想就這三大主軸跟三大教育跟您交換意見首先當然就是高教那高教"},{"start":16908.13,"end":16932.64,"text":"剛剛已經提到了就是大學這個治理的法制目前不只是學生不滿意教育團體教師也不滿意甚至校長也其實都有一些也許跟教師跟學生方向不一樣可是也都覺得有蠻多議題需要就大學治理的方式能夠有討論那之前潘部長跟劉次長最後一次被選的時候有答應說會去規劃高教國式會議"},{"start":16936.862,"end":16954.33,"text":"還答應要納入交接清單要請新部長來研議不知道那個交接清單你有收到嗎藉由高教國式會議廣邀教育團體大學教師然後校長和學生一起來討論看看能不能達成共識"},{"start":16955.916,"end":16978.157,"text":"我想高等教育從我當時在擔任中山大學校長的時候大概大家都有一些想像怎麼讓老師能夠更專業然後讓學生也能夠擴大這一個學生的一些對校務發展的一個參與我想那都是大家都那個方向基本上大家都有一些共識也有一些想法"},{"start":16979.318,"end":16980.118,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀列席報告"},{"start":17002.507,"end":17024.927,"text":"謝謝委員我想那個方向是我們怎麼樣去理解利害關係人相關的一些權益我想那都是用什麼樣的一個形式能夠展現重點是能夠真正聽到第一線上不管老師學生或者在大學治理裡面的實質的經營者的一些聲音我想我們來努力"},{"start":17026.607,"end":17051.992,"text":"謝謝部長願意努力另外我也想提醒部長的是這個私校退場條例24條版本最近在我們大院被禁服惡毒那外界非常的憂慮除了程序上完全跳過我們過去這個常常都有跨黨派共識的教育文化委員會之外外界憂慮的是這個版本裡面在私校列專府後"},{"start":17052.432,"end":17074.178,"text":"增加了一年徵求財團接續辦學的期間那這會不會讓財團透過各種租稅土地優惠然後累積起來的效產就是變成就是好像沒有經過很好的評估被奪取那當然這個有可能是過濾可是因為沒有在教育文化委員會裡面討論那我們擔心專業度會有問題那這部分也請那個部長要關切"},{"start":17080.82,"end":17103.157,"text":"另外一個相關的問題是不知道部長知不知道上個月楊交大跟群聯電子以產學合作的名義在他們的客家學院沒有需求的情況下破壞了六家聚落說要興建大樓後來是因為師生強烈抗議之後才作罷部長您知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":17104.429,"end":17118.781,"text":"我知道你知道齁那我想這件事情讓我們去反思我們過去推動過的產創條例或者是相關的規定是不是也應該要仔細檢視因為這個不是單一的個案還有蠻多其他的相關爭議的那當時是一個非常就是用意良好的一個產創條例可是如果變成就是變相的搶奪資源"},{"start":17132.873,"end":17153.312,"text":"那卻沒有產學合作支持的話我想就會失去了當時的這個良好的用意那是不是也請部長注意這件事情把幾個個案請我們高教司讓我們也有高教出身的次長一起協僱好好的檢視看相關的條例或者是規定有沒有檢討的必要好不好"},{"start":17154.584,"end":17163.09,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這樣才講完高教就只剩兩分鐘了我想國教的部分剛剛很多委員都提到了108課綱我個人覺得執行上他理念初中很好剛剛大家都講到執行上學生有很多壓力多元選修的城鄉差距也需要解決"},{"start":17177.979,"end":17192.943,"text":"畢竟我們是鼓勵學生自我探索可是如何在壓力不要增加那麼多的情況下自我探索我覺得這是相關要去努力的另外我也接受到教師們的陳情以全教種來講他們看到的是其實他們不少人是已經感受到108課綱的正面的空間只是教師覺得負擔過重"},{"start":17204.826,"end":17222.613,"text":"獲得足夠的資源那多元選修目前的規劃並沒有給老師鼓勵因為我們自己都教過說一個新的課程需要備課那需要花更多的力氣所以如何就教師的部分給予支持我也是覺得在國教上應該要努力"},{"start":17224.013,"end":17224.253,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17249.903,"end":17277.432,"text":"還有最近補教界出現的狼獅那未來如何跟校園系統連結這件事情過去我們有努力過也要請教育部進一步關切那最後國教的部分我也特別想講校園霸凌那這個部分潘部長的未經之夜學生輔導法本身那可能會對這個霸凌的事情我相信能夠幫忙來協助那這部分我們也是為什麼會希望"},{"start":17278.232,"end":17287.36,"text":"學生輔導法能夠盡早出來的原因之一好嗎好那這部分我講我的關節那最後剩一點時間講幼教其實剛剛鍾嘉賓委員講的幼教也就是講第一線現場的問題那本來想問"},{"start":17294.145,"end":17295.385,"text":"政府的0到6歲國家養的政策很好但是撒了錢卻治標不治本又托工作者還是面臨三高"},{"start":17320.433,"end":17328.343,"text":"高工時、高情緒、高壓力、3D、薪資低、福利低、保障低剛剛鍾嘉賓委員的屏東的資料我們剛好看到我們補貼了家長的錢然後給了私立的誘託可是老師的薪水沒有漲錢拿去付房租了"},{"start":17339.976,"end":17365.49,"text":"這是一個蠻大的問題回到剛講的如果老師的勞動環境不好影響教師那也會造成不當對待所以虐童案頻傳我們如果仔細去看的話其實都是以私立的誘託為主所以這部分是不是可以請部長一起關心目前我們的政策的方向其實對公司比沒有實質的提升那5年內"},{"start":17367.551,"end":17368.191,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個指導"},{"start":17396.395,"end":17420.413,"text":"又託這一個部分功利的只有三成確實我想有很多的時候我們當然也希望能夠引進民間的一個對教育的一個關心的一個投注但是在偏鄉一些離島這些我相信我們應該用公部門的力量來協助這個學校來成立這個"},{"start":17421.254,"end":17421.894,"text":"總之就是三主軸三階段期待部長的亮麗表現"},{"start":17451.414,"end":17454.877,"text":"謝謝主席,4分鐘有點短但是為了大家的健康我會盡量準時請鄭部長"},{"start":17483.373,"end":17486.175,"text":"部長辛苦了謝謝委員因為我只有4分鐘我就專注再跟您討教一下就是國教部分剛剛其實范雲委員有點到國教裡面對108課綱我們現在實行到現在第5年那我就想請教部長一下你個人對108課綱到現在第5年你的看法如何"},{"start":17508.326,"end":17524.922,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我認為我們從每一次課綱研修事實上都充滿有理想性而且那個時空裡邊我認為到現在我們事實上都還是非常有價值的當然有理想有價值"},{"start":17526.603,"end":17547.04,"text":"我肯定這是108課綱我們認為應該給我們新世代的孩子未來的台灣的學子要有一個學習自主獨立甚至他的是讓他的這個理想價值夢想可以透過108課綱一步一步的自我實現但是呢理想價值跟"},{"start":17548.481,"end":17561.489,"text":"實際的狀況有沒有落差?部長我同意有部分的在人才培育裡面﹖他確實有需要去與時俱進去做一些調整所以我現在就是要建議部長是不是我們108課綱裡面的滾動式的一個與時俱進的一個檢討是不是應該我們把它列為是部裡面應該最要緊的事情"},{"start":17570.515,"end":17595.635,"text":"我想我們內部事實上整個團隊都已經有把這個因為剛剛就我在第一線上的觀察那還有剛剛范議員的質詢內容裡面有提到全教總也有發布一個消息是七成的老師喊負擔重那以這個我在第一線上觀察到很多家長高中生的家長或者是國教的這些孩子的家長事實上他們也認為說"},{"start":17599.098,"end":17622.979,"text":"108課綱當時我們認為要教育改革就要解除所謂的軍備競賽可是到目前我們在實務面上看我不知道臺北如何啦起碼我們在中南部看到的這個軍備競賽的一個狀況沒有解除甚至更加重那不僅僅是孩子累家長也跟著累那如果按照全教總說七成的老師也認為負擔重那孩子也認為他加重了"},{"start":17623.8,"end":17630.546,"text":"家長也認為他累了那請問一下我們與時俱進的一個滾動要如何來面對因應這樣的狀況部長其實我們也聽到第一線上的一些老師的聲音包括家長所以也跟委員報告這一次為什麼我後來這個決定挺身而出決定挺身而出來但是部長這是你一個重責大任之一對不對"},{"start":17648.041,"end":17663.901,"text":"我希望我們有很多有理想的人他能夠大家一起來這個守護這個台灣的教育讓他家長少一點擔心老師能夠少一點壓力學生也能夠更安心的學習要做到這三者真的不容易"},{"start":17664.522,"end":17666.943,"text":"以剛剛很多委員都討論過的這個學習歷程來看的話事實上我們在講的教育平權軍備競賽這兩大這個我們認為的目標第一個要讓教育平權要減輕軍備競賽但是以學習歷程的這個議題來講的話事實上要做到不容易部長"},{"start":17685.751,"end":17707.652,"text":"尤其在,對不起我不能幫南部發言,我身在中部,那在中部我們看到的學習歷程的這個不管是準備,從高中端的準備到家長為孩子的準備到可能還要到正規教育以外的民間教育產業裡面的準備,這方方面面都是軍備競賽。"},{"start":17709.173,"end":17709.533,"text":"我想有"},{"start":17737.403,"end":17754.041,"text":"部份的包括從課程或者從剛才委員所提的這個學習歷程我相信有一些東西我們確實是可以調整的比如剛才也有許多委員關心這個你高一高二他可能會興趣上會有一些改變"},{"start":17754.722,"end":17779.093,"text":"那我們怎麼樣讓整個這個機制能夠考慮到學生的一些更多的一些發展跟興趣上的一個改變我想這都是我們可以來的這個就牽涉到我講的城鄉差距裡面學校高中端的資源夠不夠這個我們是不是還有機會再來討論好不好四分鐘到了我知道主席站起來了這很重要部長你挺身而出來擔任部長就是要解決剛剛講的這些問題我們期待謝謝"},{"start":17782.714,"end":17801.999,"text":"好 謝謝部長那部長我們就繼續了我們中間不休息的我們就繼續了可以哈好我們接下來我還是告知所有在場的委員4分鐘因為我們現在已經1點30分了好不好各位請嚴守時間的限制謝謝各位來我們接下來我們請牛許廷委員謝謝主席啊部長有請好請部長"},{"start":17814.74,"end":17829.229,"text":"謝謝委員部長辛苦了午安因為時間只有4分鐘教育題目暴露萬象我們今天聚焦一個題目本期非常關心台灣技職教育的未來所以今天花這4分鐘的時間我們就討論技職教育就好了這個"},{"start":17831.01,"end":17854.5,"text":"我看你們的報告內容大體上來講談技職教育大部分都還是在寫這個私立技職大專院校等等的轉型跟退場的機制這看起來是新政府的一個施政重點但是我想請問一下部長我們開放式給你一分鐘的時間來回答如果讓你點出台灣技職教育現在面對的三個最重大的問題的話你會把哪三件事情視為最重大的問題來請部長回答"},{"start":17856.482,"end":17871.209,"text":"我覺得我們即使因為現在確實面臨到少子化的挑戰那我們過去所定的還是學校的一個形態是在招18歲的這一個高中畢業生高中子的畢業生我覺得也許我們在未來"},{"start":17872.85,"end":17873.691,"text":"對第一個問題是少子化對不對學生人數可能不夠的問題對不對"},{"start":17890.063,"end":17911.473,"text":"第二個我想另外一個就是說我們整個在課程裡面當然隨著產業的一個快速的一個發展我們怎麼樣在人才培育雖然大學不管基專院校或者普通大學它的一個人才培育不是只是為這個就業做準備但是相當程度我們怎麼樣讓"},{"start":17912.674,"end":17912.734,"text":"第三個問題勒?"},{"start":17931.104,"end":17960.23,"text":"第三個問題我覺得我們也許可以更積極來思考讓私校鼓勵私校不要再有太多的這些堅韌的老師應該要有更多的一些專業老師讓他能夠在整個教育品質上在學生的一個受效權上能夠更多的不僅只是上課他還能夠有一些許多非課堂上的一些互動跟學習好所以第三個是私校的轉型跟教育品質提升的問題"},{"start":17961.03,"end":17986.888,"text":"不錯我覺得部長這樣回答算有準備但沒關係我們今天第一次質詢我們做政策對話本席的了解我們也自己做了一些功課我提了三個問題其實有些一樣有一些小落差第一個叫學生逐年遞減的問題那加上產業基層缺工的問題這個從數字上可以來看基本上現在高中生的比重已經超過高職生的比重雖然兩者都因為少子化正在下滑這是第一個問題也就是說大家現在都是慢慢慢慢往升學的方向去走這個願意"},{"start":17988.749,"end":18009.699,"text":"好好的在技職體系裡面蹲點的其實數量是變少的我想這是臺灣技職教育面對的第一個大的挑戰大的問題那麼第二個問題這個本期發現叫做政府投入在高等技職教育的資源其實跟投入在一般大學裡面它其實是有蠻大的落差它有蠻大的落差這些數字的資料會我們用書面的方式提供給教育部做參考"},{"start":18010.359,"end":18034.222,"text":"這是我認為的第二個問題施衡的問題重視大學但相對來講比較不重視技職的教育第三個問題是技職體系的學術化的問題導致技職教育的定位走向模糊的問題也就是說其實很多的技職生大概接近八成左右基本上進了高職體系他還是想我怎麼樣考上一個科技大學或怎麼樣他還是走向升學的方向但相對來講定位就很模糊"},{"start":18034.602,"end":18036.723,"text":"希望教育部長做好準備我們後續做深入的研討好不好"},{"start":18062.595,"end":18071.318,"text":"好謝謝我們4分鐘應該沒有差太久了謝謝牛委員的準時很好來接下來林月群委員麻煩我們的部長好謝謝部長"},{"start":18088.105,"end":18111.36,"text":"部長辛苦了 午安那很重要的上次大概也有提醒過就是因為台灣事實上越生孩子越來越少那近5年孩子出生率少掉3萬可是我們的交通史上是多增加3000而且交通史上事實上現在是目前占比最高在兒少這一塊所以"},{"start":18112.561,"end":18141.012,"text":"保護每個孩子事實上不會是只有交通部的責任因為教育這一塊是在我們的教育部這邊那想問的就是說現在大家就只是鼓勵學校把那個安全教育融入到我們的校定課程沒有明確的去講時數以外的確現在有推所謂的交通安全參考指引可是沒有要求學校一定要去提供適切的整個的教學內容那當然目前也有所謂的"},{"start":18142.153,"end":18163.753,"text":"學習階段的安全教育課程模組那我知道現在實施狀況呢有時候是要求這個學校呢他就是執行三年級那個學校執行四年級我有點不太懂的是為什麼只有三年級要做難道學校一到六年級一二年級不重要嗎然後呢四到六年級不重要嗎只獨獨執行三年級或有的學校執行四年級因為你的重點學校"},{"start":18164.594,"end":18181.083,"text":"要求的就是說學校要執行就好可是執行一個年級也很難說服我們說那為什麼三年級比較重要或者為什麼那個學校六年級比較重要為什麼那個學校一年級比較重要反而其他年級不執行這件事情也讓我們覺得匪夷所思所以我不知道說今天這個法治化這個因為108課綱在111年要第二階段那現在113年就已經開始在討論課綱我不知道說部長有沒有預作準備因為的確"},{"start":18193.911,"end":18201.13,"text":"034的教育宣導,如果要取代,真的要取代系統化的教學,這樣子不太好。不知道你這邊有沒有什麼樣的規劃?"},{"start":18203.061,"end":18225.23,"text":"我想誠如委員剛才所提的他不應該只是某一個特定年級學生的這些同學包括他的行的一些安全他應該是全面的被考量他不應該只是因為重點學校執行的學校已經校數不多的時候又再加上是沒有全面性這個學校去要求"},{"start":18227.471,"end":18242.237,"text":"韓國呢事實上是過去跟我們一樣齁在死傷非常的高可是他花28年的時間在鵝哨的交通傷死亡下降了96%那受傷下降63%我們先不講交通道路環境齁那個是交通部的責任"},{"start":18242.617,"end":18258.152,"text":"可是1997年他宣誓要道路交通安全教育然後到1998年定一些課程的相關的到2008年的時候直接把時數定下來而且是執行10小時讓他的傷亡從死亡是下降96受傷下降63那"},{"start":18259.833,"end":18274.309,"text":"台灣呢現在交通傷亡事實上一直是是我們心中是痛啊因為為什麼它造成死傷事實上是非常非常的高所以本來就是期待是不是可以去併進除了我們剛剛講的是不是可以"},{"start":18274.77,"end":18292.824,"text":"﹚"},{"start":18292.824,"end":18308.131,"text":"﹗"},{"start":18308.251,"end":18333.74,"text":"學校大部分都在做演講兩小時的演講講完警察講完有時候警察講的酒駕跟他們的關聯性並也不是這麼的高甚至招會的10分鐘的宣導如果你講要4小時的話他一個月招會每一次10分鐘就達到了那如果用時數安排的話基本上有沒有解決問題我們比較側重的是期待能夠去真正的解決問題那當然我們希望學校的"},{"start":18334.56,"end":18350.646,"text":"老師應該也要實施培育當然最後大家期待就是是不是能夠進行法治化以外還有老師的培養還有希望能夠有系統性的能夠去進行教學以上謝謝謝謝委員的執政話好謝謝謝謝林月群委員接下來我們請張家俊委員"},{"start":18367.062,"end":18369.904,"text":"主席我想請部長好請部長部長我不曉得說您最近有沒有看到就由大學生跟高中生組成的EDU教育協會在上週發表了第三屆的108課綱觀察報告訪問的對象全部都是在學的學生"},{"start":18391.955,"end":18416.998,"text":"根據這份報告可以發現雙語國家政策落實的效果不佳那賴清德總統在參選總統的期間曾經坦承說目前雙語國家政策的執行現場有出問題請問部長您對目前雙語教育現行的成效為何您個人的看法"},{"start":18418.754,"end":18419.055,"text":"謝謝委員的質詢"},{"start":18448.474,"end":18474.932,"text":"改善那到目前為止部長有沒有計畫2030的這個雙語政策規劃會不會有什麼樣子的改變呢謝謝委員我想這個當時當然賴總統當時整個中央政府這個希望2030年是設定一個目標可是我們知道在整個國家政策的一個教育政策的推動我們也與時俱進也做了一些"},{"start":18475.572,"end":18492.278,"text":"議員．"},{"start":18492.478,"end":18492.598,"text":"有幾個受訪者就說"},{"start":18508.709,"end":18508.849,"text":"通訊網站"},{"start":18525.66,"end":18547.227,"text":"有些科目的專有名詞比較多光是中文解釋就已經很難了假設在用不熟悉的語言會增加它的困難度所以目前種種數據調查皆表明雙語政策在政策目標與教學現場有很大的差距有38.4%的學生不認同雙語教育會提升它的語言水平"},{"start":18552.028,"end":18581.554,"text":"更多數的學生反映雙語教學增加了學習壓力那教育部有沒有什麼具體的措施來為這些學生減輕壓力因為有相當多的學生其實是家境並沒有那麼好他沒有辦法參與補習所以他就是跟不上腳步針對可能家庭環境經濟水平比較差的學生教育部這邊有什麼樣子的加強措施呢"},{"start":18583.02,"end":18598.344,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指正確實我們也看到這些高中生他們的一些意見其實是非常寶貴對我們未來政策的一個推動他事實上有提供了一個相當好的一個我們可以修正努力的一個方向"},{"start":18600.885,"end":18600.905,"text":"委員會員"},{"start":18620.41,"end":18636.227,"text":"報告我們確實也看到了這一項所以我們希望利用這個暑假的營隊把這一個大學生或者許多失陪的能夠帶到這個偏鄉離島優先在許多的日常英文的能力口說比較生活化的我們逐步來做"},{"start":18637.408,"end":18650.817,"text":"謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝兩位來部長先請回座接下來蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員好楊瓊英委員謝謝主席本席想邀請部長"},{"start":18667.162,"end":18693.371,"text":"委員好部長好部長大家歡喜你來自教育界教育的這個場域所以我們希望能夠有一個新的氣象但是目前為止我們面臨到的確很大的一個教育困境我們首先從兩岸的這個學生來看那聽著總統在就職的時候他主動的呼籲陸方要開放陸生學生來台"},{"start":18694.605,"end":18698.997,"text":"那部長你也表示要秉持的一個平等尊嚴的原則"},{"start":18700.495,"end":18726.253,"text":"而且讓兩岸的青年恢復交流所以我們看到從2020年開始陸方宣布了停止暫停陸生來台但是在台灣學生陸續要畢業所以陸生在前10年境外最大的來源國之外我們現在是落到第7名所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教總統先生這麼說那你預計你會怎麼做"},{"start":18731.391,"end":18733.332,"text":"這是目前我們教育部的方向希望積極來開放學衛生來台交流來台灣學習"},{"start":18756.958,"end":18771.893,"text":"來台灣學習是目前教育部您的方向我們目前也都有各校都有既定的辦法這個在每年的招生各校的招生的2%裡邊我們事實上就事實上但是您是新任的部長"},{"start":18772.734,"end":18790.433,"text":"部長你要去看看真實的情況因為到目前我們本來是第一現在是落到第七這樣子的一個落差問題在哪裡它的實現度有多少這是你擔任部長我們所期待的不是只有美化不是只有政策而沒有去落實"},{"start":18791.454,"end":18813.005,"text":"因為確實過去因為COVID的關係也讓得大家事實上都是很緊張也阻缺了一些交流的一些機會跟信息的一些機會所以我歡迎聽到部長您的回答沒有政治的話術我們的方向是希望能夠促進兩岸青年的交流也希望能夠積極的讓"},{"start":18815.186,"end":18815.426,"text":"學生來臺學習"},{"start":18845.727,"end":18849.13,"text":"但是我們看到110年他是1183屆跟4204屆部長光這五年當中增加了十倍部長"},{"start":18860.339,"end":18869.351,"text":"在潘部長卸任的時候他也非常的憂心他說校園霸凌跟智商的問題要繼續的積極努力來解決請教我們現任的部長針對這個數字你看了心難過不難過"},{"start":18878.462,"end":18894.381,"text":"我想每一個年輕人都是我們國家未來的一個希望我們不希望一個年紀輕輕他們有這種自傷或者自殺的行為所以怎麼樣去落實身心健康讓校園有一個更"},{"start":18895.422,"end":18914.325,"text":"這一個友善安全的一個學習環境我相信那都是我們大家共同在努力的所以本席歡喜聽到你這個論點大家就同一個目標方法我給你功課把方法拿出來給我們這個數字是不能看的數字五年增長十倍心痛啊"},{"start":18915.026,"end":18932.386,"text":"最後一個議題給你 我要遵守再給我一分鐘少子化的問題 我們看到1990年到2001年我們大中院校130所暴增到163所那2023年我看退潮大概只有剩下145所我們又看到學生數 學生數呢20萬"},{"start":18935.189,"end":18957.03,"text":"那個工到了170學年度應該只剩下15.7萬我要兩個問題少子化的問題對大學的退場機制新政府你有什麼作為第二個我們在退場的學校裡面的教師早期我們將2020年開始他轉職公立轉職到私立"},{"start":18958.047,"end":18965.992,"text":"但是連司令現在都危急了那我們這一些教室要怎麼辦這是第二個課題給部長部長你看到這兩個問題了嗎確實我看到了這個少子化對大學的一個治理這個永續的發展它確實是一個挑戰但是我剛才也在跟其他委員也特別的分享也許我們開始要有一些新的一個想法也就是說有部分的學校"},{"start":18986.184,"end":19005.719,"text":"他事實上是優質的但是因為少子化的關係使得他面臨了更大的挑戰也許這個整個學校的治理他不一定要招18歲他可能有一些更多的我特別跟委員報告30歲以後有30歲以後你這個想法很好但是要怎麼去落實聽你講將你水淹玉的"},{"start":19008.301,"end":19008.882,"text":"接下來我們請羅智強委員時間4分鐘謝謝"},{"start":19036.451,"end":19036.873,"text":"主席有請鄭部長"},{"start":19047.133,"end":19075.16,"text":"部長好賴清德總統就職說兩岸合作可以先從學位生來台就學開始嘛對不對我也看到你說在兩岸平等尊嚴下讓大陸學位生來台嘛對不對我有點好奇兩岸現在這麼的關係這麼的惡劣緊張為什麼我們賴總統以及包括我們的鄭部長你第一個想要做的是讓大陸的學位生來台為什麼"},{"start":19076.92,"end":19089.874,"text":"我想過去因為COVID的關係對也許阻斷了一些兩岸的一些我這樣問好了部長那代表學生來台對台灣來講還是有正面的意義嘛對不對"},{"start":19092.116,"end":19106.384,"text":"對年輕人的認識從文化兩岸的一個交流更健康的一些學習的一個互動我想那當然是正面學習互動健康的那個兩岸的交流嘛對不對可以增加一些相互的瞭解"},{"start":19107.944,"end":19135.351,"text":"事實上我們現在很多的一些學校的量能包括私校退場的問題那如果說這個陸生來台也可以做這些上面的一些等於是多一些我們教學量能的擴充使用嘛對不對減緩一些私校的一些招生的壓力嘛對不對是是謝謝我們部長那可是我就要問部長幾個問題我們事實上陸生來台最多的時候是多少人每年多少人"},{"start":19139.196,"end":19158.992,"text":"學士生加研修生每年四萬兩千人學士生將近九千五百人可是陸生的學衛生在去年就歸零了請問教育部要恢復陸生來台具體目標數字是什麼有沒有具體目標數字希望啦"},{"start":19161.428,"end":19167.715,"text":"這個部分我們當然希望能夠恢復到在未來所以希望能夠恢復到四萬兩千人或九千五百人之類的嘛 對不對很好 有這個宏觀的目標很好 那具體的時程有沒有大概的希望多快 越快越好"},{"start":19178.769,"end":19203.768,"text":"當然我們期待就是說兩岸的一個在讓年輕人一個學習或是交流的機會能夠越快越好那我們釋出一個相對的一些主動的一個善意的事實上在這邊我很肯定部長因為是要陸生來台是馬英九前總統他那時候的一個很重要的政績所以看起來我們新政府也想延續可是下一個部長我要請教你一下你知道"},{"start":19204.528,"end":19230.659,"text":"入生來台是教育史上最黑暗的一天你知道這句話誰說的嗎?你認同這句話嗎?入生來台是教育史上最黑暗的一天?對,非常好,我也不認同這句話是賴清德總統在當立委的時候說的啦所以那我現在請教您你知道這個入生來台"},{"start":19233.46,"end":19241.608,"text":"將使得我們成為教育的一中市場台灣由親美將轉為親中影響台灣人的價值觀這又要誰說的你知道嗎是現在的海委會主委以前的管碧玲立委說的然後陸森來台將接班的政治精英滲透到台灣來很嚴重啊這又要誰說的"},{"start":19257.453,"end":19263.783,"text":"陳庭菲說的我再不要再念下去了啦我就要說一件事情我想請教一下部長"},{"start":19265.288,"end":19293.747,"text":"為什麼入生來台從所謂的過去民進黨在野的時候的十惡不赦的政策現在變成部長你口中甚至賴清德總統口中的優先兩岸需要能夠開通的政策還變成一個可以促進兩岸相互了解甚至來能夠讓我們的這個教育的那個能量可以就是得到延伸為什麼變成是正面的事情呢到底轉變了什麼東西"},{"start":19297.049,"end":19314.474,"text":"我想從我一個學教育的觀點我總覺得很多的這個不同的一些文化或者一些觀念能夠透過一些互動他能夠減少縮短彼此的差異及理解差異我想他是有的謝謝部長一路很正常我最後做一點簡短的結論"},{"start":19316.215,"end":19328.402,"text":"事實上我跟各位回味一下以前在審入生法案的時候我看這是似曾相識所以我們在審國會法案一模一樣民進黨公主席台要掐麥克風要掐會議主席的脖子扯法汙嘴掐桌各種暴力手段也是樣樣來跟這兩天相比毫不遜色當時賴清德還跳到桌上跟洪秀柱對嗆"},{"start":19341.65,"end":19352.911,"text":"才會有出現這個歷史名言入生來台是教育史上最黑暗的一天我在這邊真的是奉勸民進黨的人最近國會改個一模一樣的嘴臉我不希望10年後"},{"start":19354.378,"end":19376.888,"text":"結果又變成說是今天這個國會改革是非常陽光正面就像說10年前你把陸森來台打成所謂教育史上最黑暗的一天但是現在卻成為賴清德當總統第一個想要重新開放的兩岸政見不要著是心非學學我們的部長能夠正面看待該正面看待的事情謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":19379.178,"end":19397.712,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員謝謝部長黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員翁曉林委員翁曉林委員翁曉林委員"},{"start":19399.073,"end":19418.01,"text":"今天的質詢登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢那關於今天的會議我們做如下的決定報告和詢答完畢我們委員所提供的書面或相關的資料我們就列入記錄好那我們報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢我們現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":19426.327,"end":19427.988,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19459.229,"end":19484.019,"text":"謝謝各位不懷意思"}]}},{"id":"15952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15952","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854197e6bbfb965dc71fc48310b441d33d3be8d109af184be47411e51a222cc80e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-27","start_time":"2024-05-27T08:31:20+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:55:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15820,"委員發言時間":"08:31:20 - 12:55:00","影片長度":"04:23:40","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":196.25346875000002,"end":197.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":198.53159375,"end":199.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1724.7572187500002,"end":1727.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":1725.24659375,"end":1727.1703437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1780.4784687500003,"end":1781.2547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1782.6890937500002,"end":1783.2797187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1784.1403437500003,"end":1784.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1787.0597187500002,"end":1787.7515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1789.2534687500001,"end":1791.8015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1791.9703437500002,"end":1792.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1792.9659687500002,"end":1793.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1810.2797187500003,"end":1810.6847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1810.9715937500002,"end":1814.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1815.6122187500002,"end":1818.7172187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1819.02096875,"end":1914.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1916.76096875,"end":1921.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1923.3253437500002,"end":1925.8565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1926.76784375,"end":1929.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1930.4634687500002,"end":1932.3028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1933.0284687500002,"end":1950.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1951.2872187500002,"end":1957.6659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1958.2228437500003,"end":1959.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1961.36159375,"end":1962.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1962.2897187500002,"end":1963.6565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1964.1459687500003,"end":1971.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1971.6384687500001,"end":1978.8947187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1979.08034375,"end":1979.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1981.0040937500003,"end":1983.5353437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1985.9822187500001,"end":1990.2515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1992.6309687500002,"end":1994.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1997.0522187500003,"end":1998.3853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2000.8490937500003,"end":2002.1990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2004.5447187500001,"end":2005.8609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2008.1053437500002,"end":2009.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2011.56471875,"end":2012.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2019.1753437500001,"end":2025.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2028.2709687500003,"end":2031.0384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2034.0253437500003,"end":2037.0628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2039.8640937500002,"end":2040.0497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2040.8597187500002,"end":2041.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2042.0915937500001,"end":2044.6903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2046.9178437500002,"end":2049.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2053.2459687500004,"end":2055.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2058.39284375,"end":2060.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2061.1940937500003,"end":2062.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2065.1090937500003,"end":2069.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2072.3990937500002,"end":2075.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2077.7653437500003,"end":2082.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2084.85284375,"end":2089.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2091.72096875,"end":2092.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2092.49721875,"end":2094.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2096.29409375,"end":2097.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2096.3953437500004,"end":2097.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2099.7028437500003,"end":2103.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2106.3347187500003,"end":2108.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2108.95034375,"end":2109.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2112.76409375,"end":2117.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2120.30721875,"end":2123.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2123.6990937500004,"end":2124.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2127.46221875,"end":2131.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2133.80721875,"end":2137.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2139.74721875,"end":2143.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2148.26909375,"end":2153.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2155.54221875,"end":2160.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2163.7265937500006,"end":2169.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2171.47221875,"end":2176.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2178.3572187500004,"end":2183.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2185.9509687500004,"end":2191.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2193.76409375,"end":2196.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2196.34596875,"end":2197.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2199.6872187500003,"end":2203.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2205.08721875,"end":2208.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2210.52096875,"end":2216.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2223.66659375,"end":2227.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2227.5984687500004,"end":2228.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2228.9990937500006,"end":2229.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2229.0497187500005,"end":2230.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2231.71596875,"end":2235.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2243.17409375,"end":2243.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2246.5153437500003,"end":2272.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2273.07659375,"end":2275.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2275.13534375,"end":2276.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2276.9747187500006,"end":2278.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2279.1853437500004,"end":2280.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2281.1090937500003,"end":2294.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2294.54159375,"end":2296.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2297.9334687500004,"end":2301.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2301.59534375,"end":2301.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2302.2872187500006,"end":2320.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2320.8497187500006,"end":2326.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2326.89096875,"end":2358.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2358.3290937500005,"end":2369.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2369.51721875,"end":2371.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2371.98096875,"end":2388.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2389.1765937500004,"end":2420.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2427.83721875,"end":2431.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2431.53284375,"end":2432.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2433.74346875,"end":2434.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2435.2284687500005,"end":2436.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2437.4559687500005,"end":2437.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2438.92409375,"end":2440.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2441.1853437500004,"end":2441.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2442.48471875,"end":2445.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2455.1747187500005,"end":2456.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2456.3897187500006,"end":2458.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2458.68471875,"end":2459.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2460.22034375,"end":2465.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2466.59909375,"end":2472.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2473.1803437500002,"end":2496.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2500.3153437500005,"end":2500.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2500.9734687500004,"end":2503.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2511.43596875,"end":2670.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2673.0478437500005,"end":2673.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2673.9422187500004,"end":2675.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2676.3047187500006,"end":2676.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2677.53659375,"end":2679.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2691.08721875,"end":2822.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2827.7578437500006,"end":2831.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2842.35471875,"end":2843.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2843.6709687500006,"end":2849.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2850.2353437500005,"end":2877.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2878.16346875,"end":2897.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2897.87346875,"end":2922.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2922.69659375,"end":2931.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2931.2859687500004,"end":2961.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2961.45846875,"end":2962.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2963.02784375,"end":2966.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2967.0947187500005,"end":2974.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2975.1778437500006,"end":2991.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2992.98096875,"end":2995.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2997.08159375,"end":2998.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2998.81971875,"end":3003.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3008.16846875,"end":3059.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3060.4978437500004,"end":3069.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3069.52596875,"end":3074.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3074.5378437500003,"end":3081.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3081.0684687500006,"end":3083.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3084.17346875,"end":3093.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3093.15096875,"end":3100.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3100.1034687500005,"end":3133.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3133.4315937500005,"end":3137.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3137.9540937500005,"end":3143.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3144.07971875,"end":3159.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3159.9590937500006,"end":3161.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3161.30909375,"end":3163.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3164.3972187500003,"end":3188.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3188.3934687500005,"end":3197.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3197.70846875,"end":3203.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3203.2772187500004,"end":3205.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3206.3653437500006,"end":3223.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3223.56096875,"end":3228.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3228.20159375,"end":3231.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3231.6778437500006,"end":3245.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3245.3465937500005,"end":3248.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3248.7215937500005,"end":3282.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3282.6572187500005,"end":3332.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3333.6534687500007,"end":3356.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3356.6034687500005,"end":3365.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3370.62659375,"end":3382.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3383.1140937500004,"end":3385.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3385.93221875,"end":3389.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3390.1847187500007,"end":3392.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3393.39096875,"end":3399.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3405.33846875,"end":3407.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3407.6334687500002,"end":3408.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3411.41346875,"end":3441.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3413.16846875,"end":3413.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3441.97409375,"end":3462.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3461.5828437500004,"end":3461.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3461.7684687500005,"end":3461.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3462.03846875,"end":3482.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3468.3328437500004,"end":3468.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3482.6765937500004,"end":3493.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3494.15159375,"end":3503.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3504.64784375,"end":3520.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3513.45659375,"end":3514.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3520.62846875,"end":3522.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3522.4509687500004,"end":3524.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3524.7965937500003,"end":3538.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3534.71909375,"end":3588.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3538.65096875,"end":3539.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3543.4772187500002,"end":3543.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3543.4940937500005,"end":3543.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3543.8653437500006,"end":3543.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3543.9159687500005,"end":3543.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3549.8728437500004,"end":3550.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3550.02471875,"end":3551.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3551.29034375,"end":3551.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3556.23471875,"end":3556.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3589.2253437500003,"end":3631.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3632.0372187500006,"end":3662.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3653.94096875,"end":3653.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3653.9578437500004,"end":3655.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3661.9734687500004,"end":3664.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3664.11659375,"end":3670.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3670.20846875,"end":3676.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3675.3553437500004,"end":3691.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3677.31284375,"end":3677.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3681.48096875,"end":3682.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3682.2403437500006,"end":3682.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3682.30784375,"end":3682.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3683.2697187500007,"end":3683.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3684.61971875,"end":3684.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3684.67034375,"end":3685.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3685.02471875,"end":3685.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3685.09221875,"end":3685.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3693.5128437500007,"end":3695.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3695.87534375,"end":3696.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3698.3053437500002,"end":3698.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3698.3222187500005,"end":3699.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3700.2628437500007,"end":3700.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3701.17409375,"end":3702.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3702.7940937500007,"end":3722.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3722.9090937500005,"end":3766.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3753.1659687500005,"end":3753.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3753.97596875,"end":3754.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3765.5859687500006,"end":3766.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3766.9022187500004,"end":3768.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3768.15096875,"end":3773.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3768.1847187500007,"end":3768.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3772.7409687500003,"end":3778.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3778.9003437500005,"end":3778.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3778.9509687500004,"end":3779.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3779.11971875,"end":3839.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3839.6334687500002,"end":3927.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3927.31596875,"end":4018.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4018.6603437500007,"end":4027.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4027.89096875,"end":4073.3859687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4072.84596875,"end":4074.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4073.8584687500006,"end":4121.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4111.1522187499995,"end":4114.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4115.472218749999,"end":4115.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4116.24846875,"end":4117.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4118.64471875,"end":4129.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4123.2684687500005,"end":4123.909718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4124.989718750001,"end":4126.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4127.72346875,"end":4127.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4128.702218750001,"end":4130.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4132.077218750001,"end":4133.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4134.135968750001,"end":4136.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4144.75034375,"end":4146.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4146.85971875,"end":4147.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4150.639718750001,"end":4151.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4151.97284375,"end":4162.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4162.70534375,"end":4187.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4187.528468750001,"end":4189.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4189.350968750001,"end":4196.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4197.29909375,"end":4202.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4202.91846875,"end":4238.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4238.54159375,"end":4246.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4246.725968750001,"end":4250.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4250.235968749999,"end":4255.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4255.60221875,"end":4259.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4259.92221875,"end":4262.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4262.55471875,"end":4263.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4263.600968750001,"end":4269.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4269.743468750001,"end":4273.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4274.097218749999,"end":4281.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4282.163468750001,"end":4286.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4286.17971875,"end":4289.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4286.31471875,"end":4286.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4286.34846875,"end":4286.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4289.099093750001,"end":4291.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4291.2928437499995,"end":4294.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4294.296593749999,"end":4296.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4296.321593750001,"end":4301.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4301.36721875,"end":4352.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4301.40096875,"end":4301.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4301.9072187500005,"end":4302.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4353.39284375,"end":4359.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4360.024718750001,"end":4361.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4362.30284375,"end":4362.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4363.04534375,"end":4367.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4368.39471875,"end":4412.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4412.03346875,"end":4412.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4414.22721875,"end":4426.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4425.01034375,"end":4428.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4427.08596875,"end":4427.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4428.0478437500005,"end":4428.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4429.3134687500005,"end":4432.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4432.57034375,"end":4433.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4432.637843750001,"end":4438.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4438.577843749999,"end":4438.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4439.45534375,"end":4442.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4440.01221875,"end":4440.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4440.19784375,"end":4440.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4442.03721875,"end":4446.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4446.81284375,"end":4446.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4446.8465937500005,"end":4446.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4447.50471875,"end":4475.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4447.75784375,"end":4449.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4449.9853437500005,"end":4450.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4475.6522187499995,"end":4480.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4481.237843749999,"end":4492.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4492.79721875,"end":4493.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4493.77596875,"end":4499.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4498.821593750001,"end":4500.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4500.15471875,"end":4519.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4509.267218749999,"end":4509.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4519.03784375,"end":4525.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4527.23909375,"end":4527.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4528.04909375,"end":4529.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4530.24284375,"end":4564.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4564.954718749999,"end":4569.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4571.18159375,"end":4578.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4578.505343750001,"end":4596.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4596.038468750001,"end":4617.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4596.932843750001,"end":4597.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4617.132218750001,"end":4623.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4624.55721875,"end":4625.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4625.55284375,"end":4643.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4643.03534375,"end":4651.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4651.18596875,"end":4656.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4656.61971875,"end":4664.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4665.66471875,"end":4729.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4718.44971875,"end":4720.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4729.958468750001,"end":4737.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4736.7928437499995,"end":4754.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4754.899718750001,"end":4758.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4758.966593749999,"end":4760.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4760.77221875,"end":4763.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4768.61909375,"end":4772.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4779.655343750001,"end":4781.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4782.49034375,"end":4782.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4783.637843750001,"end":4784.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4783.84034375,"end":4785.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4786.169093750001,"end":4786.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4789.47659375,"end":4789.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4790.21909375,"end":4791.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4790.894093750001,"end":4791.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4791.19784375,"end":4791.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4792.159718750001,"end":4795.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4795.5009687500005,"end":4795.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4795.770968750001,"end":4803.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4795.78784375,"end":4795.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4803.651593750001,"end":4805.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4806.90846875,"end":4807.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4807.56659375,"end":4809.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4810.55346875,"end":4813.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4813.94534375,"end":4818.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4817.82659375,"end":4818.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4818.67034375,"end":4819.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4818.82221875,"end":4824.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4824.76221875,"end":4831.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4832.64284375,"end":4844.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4843.22346875,"end":4860.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4853.55096875,"end":4853.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4853.58471875,"end":4853.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4860.975968750001,"end":4861.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4861.161593750001,"end":4861.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4861.33034375,"end":4861.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4861.347218750001,"end":4861.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4861.347218750001,"end":4863.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4861.36409375,"end":4861.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4864.60409375,"end":4865.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4864.80659375,"end":4865.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4865.481593750001,"end":4869.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4870.08846875,"end":4889.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4889.68034375,"end":4897.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4897.729718750001,"end":4904.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4904.614718750001,"end":4915.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4904.850968750001,"end":4906.251593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4914.95909375,"end":4916.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4915.870343750001,"end":4916.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4917.05159375,"end":4922.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4918.587218750001,"end":4919.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4920.07221875,"end":4921.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4922.36721875,"end":4933.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4925.894093750001,"end":4926.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4933.31909375,"end":4939.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4939.64721875,"end":4940.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4940.659718750001,"end":4944.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4942.27971875,"end":4947.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4945.300343750001,"end":4946.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4946.81909375,"end":4968.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4949.82284375,"end":4950.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4967.32221875,"end":4981.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4969.870343750001,"end":4970.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4981.9697187500005,"end":4985.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4983.741593750001,"end":4989.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4989.42846875,"end":4990.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4991.63909375,"end":4994.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4995.452843749999,"end":4996.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4997.83221875,"end":4998.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4999.536593750001,"end":5001.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5001.831593750001,"end":5003.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5006.151593750001,"end":5010.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5006.185343749999,"end":5007.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5009.7459687499995,"end":5010.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5010.741593750001,"end":5011.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5011.61909375,"end":5011.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5012.850968750001,"end":5026.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5013.374093750001,"end":5017.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5020.3603437500005,"end":5021.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5023.46534375,"end":5023.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5024.41034375,"end":5026.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5026.78971875,"end":5027.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5027.4647187499995,"end":5028.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5028.86534375,"end":5055.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5033.03346875,"end":5033.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5055.966593749999,"end":5056.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5057.097218750001,"end":5068.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5068.60596875,"end":5070.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5069.432843750001,"end":5081.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5074.259093750001,"end":5075.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5076.35159375,"end":5076.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5077.43159375,"end":5078.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5081.4647187499995,"end":5093.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5093.1590937500005,"end":5107.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5108.12721875,"end":5122.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5122.84221875,"end":5153.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5153.014718750001,"end":5153.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5153.0653437500005,"end":5155.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5155.7147187499995,"end":5164.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5164.810343749999,"end":5169.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5169.265343749999,"end":5169.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5169.467843750001,"end":5184.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5184.80721875,"end":5192.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5187.4228437500005,"end":5187.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5187.49034375,"end":5187.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5190.122843749999,"end":5190.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5191.13534375,"end":5191.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5193.37971875,"end":5196.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5197.75034375,"end":5198.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5198.22284375,"end":5199.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5199.91034375,"end":5200.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5200.97346875,"end":5201.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5201.39534375,"end":5201.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5201.73284375,"end":5201.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5201.81721875,"end":5202.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5202.05346875,"end":5203.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5202.66096875,"end":5204.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5204.2978437500005,"end":5205.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5206.204718749999,"end":5207.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5208.21284375,"end":5210.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5208.34784375,"end":5208.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5208.58409375,"end":5208.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5210.06909375,"end":5211.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5210.946593750001,"end":5212.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5211.233468750001,"end":5211.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5211.317843750001,"end":5211.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5212.51596875,"end":5212.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5212.85346875,"end":5215.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5216.22846875,"end":5216.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5217.29159375,"end":5247.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5228.12534375,"end":5228.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5228.96909375,"end":5229.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5247.784718750001,"end":5258.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5250.130343750001,"end":5250.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5251.17659375,"end":5251.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5251.581593750001,"end":5252.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5257.97721875,"end":5259.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5263.74846875,"end":5264.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5265.58784375,"end":5267.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5267.899718750001,"end":5270.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5278.80096875,"end":5281.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5281.5009687500005,"end":5282.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5285.939093749999,"end":5286.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5286.9853437500005,"end":5291.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5291.5584687499995,"end":5295.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5296.18221875,"end":5297.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5298.089093750001,"end":5298.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5299.067843750001,"end":5301.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5301.227843750001,"end":5302.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5303.2528437500005,"end":5305.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5305.530968749999,"end":5309.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5310.05346875,"end":5312.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5313.1415937500005,"end":5314.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5314.23846875,"end":5317.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5317.69784375,"end":5318.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5318.91284375,"end":5321.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5321.764718750001,"end":5324.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5325.224093750001,"end":5340.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5341.37346875,"end":5342.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5342.31846875,"end":5349.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5349.10221875,"end":5351.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5351.717843750001,"end":5352.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5352.3084687499995,"end":5370.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5371.22534375,"end":5381.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5381.046593749999,"end":5385.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5385.40034375,"end":5421.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5421.934718750001,"end":5423.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5423.68971875,"end":5433.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5433.62909375,"end":5437.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5438.421593749999,"end":5459.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5443.214093750001,"end":5443.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5443.247843749999,"end":5443.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5443.686593750001,"end":5443.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5460.42659375,"end":5467.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5467.80096875,"end":5483.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5484.05159375,"end":5488.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5489.2997187500005,"end":5501.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5501.804093750001,"end":5504.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5504.385968750001,"end":5512.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5510.78159375,"end":5511.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5511.608468750001,"end":5511.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5513.81909375,"end":5516.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5513.852843750001,"end":5588.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5516.468468749999,"end":5516.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5520.839093750001,"end":5521.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5521.024718750001,"end":5521.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5521.294718749999,"end":5521.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5553.5428437499995,"end":5554.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5562.99284375,"end":5563.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5565.06846875,"end":5565.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5565.085343750001,"end":5565.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5565.507218750001,"end":5565.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5565.96284375,"end":5566.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5588.96346875,"end":5595.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5592.794093750001,"end":5593.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5595.966593749999,"end":5607.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5596.32096875,"end":5596.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5602.19346875,"end":5603.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5604.606593750001,"end":5606.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5606.530343750001,"end":5612.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5610.29346875,"end":5610.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5612.72346875,"end":5615.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5613.3309687500005,"end":5614.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5614.2928437499995,"end":5632.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5618.005343750001,"end":5618.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5618.03909375,"end":5620.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5632.38284375,"end":5655.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5656.260968750001,"end":5656.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5657.25659375,"end":5664.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5664.732218749999,"end":5669.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5669.1365937499995,"end":5682.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5682.77159375,"end":5687.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5688.137843750001,"end":5689.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5689.52159375,"end":5690.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5691.20909375,"end":5692.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5693.30159375,"end":5703.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5695.47846875,"end":5695.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5697.95909375,"end":5698.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5703.52784375,"end":5709.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5710.09221875,"end":5719.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5719.390343749999,"end":5729.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5729.81909375,"end":5732.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5733.19409375,"end":5733.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5734.69596875,"end":5736.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5736.315968750001,"end":5737.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5738.897843750001,"end":5744.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5744.92221875,"end":5746.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5746.89659375,"end":5749.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5750.052218750001,"end":5750.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5751.25034375,"end":5752.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5752.19534375,"end":5753.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5753.96721875,"end":5755.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5755.78971875,"end":5756.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5756.9540937500005,"end":5759.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5759.53596875,"end":5760.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5760.53159375,"end":5761.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5761.341593749999,"end":5763.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5764.210343750001,"end":5765.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5766.30284375,"end":5767.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5767.635968750001,"end":5769.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5770.52159375,"end":5772.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5773.45784375,"end":5781.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5781.557843750001,"end":5797.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5797.589093750001,"end":5806.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5798.16284375,"end":5799.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5800.47471875,"end":5800.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5805.216593749999,"end":5805.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5805.8240937499995,"end":5805.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5805.840968750001,"end":5805.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5807.49471875,"end":5811.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5811.983468750001,"end":5813.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5813.4853437500005,"end":5814.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5814.29534375,"end":5817.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5818.17659375,"end":5826.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5826.327218750001,"end":5835.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5836.671593749999,"end":5838.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5850.323468750001,"end":5853.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5857.545968750001,"end":5858.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5859.52034375,"end":5859.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5859.975968750001,"end":5860.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5862.405968749999,"end":5863.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5862.557843750001,"end":5863.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5863.536593750001,"end":5863.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5863.75596875,"end":5867.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5867.046593749999,"end":5867.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5867.63721875,"end":5867.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5868.19409375,"end":5880.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5880.327218750001,"end":5881.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5880.34409375,"end":5880.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5882.53784375,"end":5882.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5882.55471875,"end":5883.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5883.39846875,"end":5886.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5884.765343749999,"end":5885.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5886.80721875,"end":5887.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5887.077218750001,"end":5888.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5888.49471875,"end":5895.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5895.39659375,"end":5900.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5896.999718749999,"end":5897.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5899.109093749999,"end":5901.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5901.420968750001,"end":5903.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5903.41221875,"end":5909.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5903.952218750001,"end":5904.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5904.81284375,"end":5905.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5909.841593749999,"end":5915.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5915.59596875,"end":5916.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5916.89534375,"end":5929.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5929.78784375,"end":5956.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5940.01409375,"end":5940.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5957.294093750001,"end":5968.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5968.80284375,"end":5981.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5982.20159375,"end":5989.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5990.16659375,"end":5995.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5996.0897187499995,"end":5999.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6000.76409375,"end":6002.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6002.333468750001,"end":6004.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6003.514718750001,"end":6006.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6007.14284375,"end":6009.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6007.69971875,"end":6008.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6009.0497187500005,"end":6012.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6009.99471875,"end":6011.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6011.78346875,"end":6012.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6012.81284375,"end":6021.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6017.655968749999,"end":6023.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6024.05159375,"end":6028.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6025.874093750001,"end":6030.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6029.012843750001,"end":6033.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6033.2147187499995,"end":6033.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6033.48471875,"end":6036.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6035.526593750001,"end":6049.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6037.36596875,"end":6038.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6049.75221875,"end":6052.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6053.07659375,"end":6056.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6056.73846875,"end":6078.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6078.557843750001,"end":6102.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6103.00971875,"end":6116.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6103.04346875,"end":6104.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6104.3934687500005,"end":6104.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6105.692843750001,"end":6105.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6105.96284375,"end":6106.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6116.796593749999,"end":6122.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6122.517218750001,"end":6127.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6127.545968750001,"end":6139.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6134.987843750001,"end":6137.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6139.915343750001,"end":6142.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6142.7840937500005,"end":6149.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6143.64471875,"end":6144.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6149.1122187500005,"end":6153.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6151.8290937500005,"end":6161.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6159.30471875,"end":6160.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6161.97096875,"end":6162.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6162.645968750001,"end":6172.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6168.417218750001,"end":6168.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6171.94409375,"end":6178.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6178.491593750001,"end":6182.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6181.47846875,"end":6183.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6183.58784375,"end":6184.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6183.604718750001,"end":6185.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6184.43159375,"end":6203.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6185.03909375,"end":6185.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6188.295968750001,"end":6188.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6188.31284375,"end":6189.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6190.405343750001,"end":6190.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6203.010968750001,"end":6204.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6203.83784375,"end":6222.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6211.22909375,"end":6212.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6212.140343749999,"end":6212.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6218.50221875,"end":6220.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6221.8603437500005,"end":6223.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6223.530968749999,"end":6225.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6225.420968750001,"end":6225.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6225.43784375,"end":6225.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6225.505343750001,"end":6226.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6226.298468750001,"end":6226.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6226.720343750001,"end":6227.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6241.51971875,"end":6242.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6243.42659375,"end":6245.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6245.7215937500005,"end":6257.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6258.34409375,"end":6259.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6259.66034375,"end":6265.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6265.920968750001,"end":6266.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6267.6590937500005,"end":6281.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6280.720343750001,"end":6283.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6283.74096875,"end":6289.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6287.74034375,"end":6289.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6289.073468750001,"end":6289.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6289.917218750001,"end":6291.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6291.72284375,"end":6291.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6291.90846875,"end":6295.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6294.979718750001,"end":6297.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6297.089093750001,"end":6300.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6302.759093750001,"end":6304.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6303.67034375,"end":6303.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6304.632218750001,"end":6309.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6309.357218749999,"end":6320.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6320.49471875,"end":6327.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6327.90284375,"end":6340.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6327.919718749999,"end":6329.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6340.98096875,"end":6342.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6341.40284375,"end":6347.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6347.055968750001,"end":6347.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6352.28721875,"end":6359.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6371.06909375,"end":6372.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6372.267218750001,"end":6374.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6376.907843750001,"end":6378.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6386.44221875,"end":6387.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6387.370343750001,"end":6390.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6391.167218750001,"end":6395.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6396.0272187499995,"end":6399.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6399.30096875,"end":6399.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6400.077218750001,"end":6402.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6403.0809687500005,"end":6404.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6404.329718750001,"end":6407.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6407.77221875,"end":6412.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6413.3240937499995,"end":6414.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6415.33221875,"end":6417.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6418.31909375,"end":6432.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6431.86971875,"end":6431.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6431.903468750001,"end":6432.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6432.25784375,"end":6432.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6432.89909375,"end":6440.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6441.01596875,"end":6443.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6443.564093750001,"end":6445.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6445.724093750001,"end":6458.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6458.81909375,"end":6465.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6466.497218750001,"end":6481.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6482.055968750001,"end":6486.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6486.89909375,"end":6491.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6491.87721875,"end":6493.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6493.9022187499995,"end":6496.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6496.534718750001,"end":6497.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6497.530343750001,"end":6498.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6499.15034375,"end":6500.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6500.82096875,"end":6508.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6508.65096875,"end":6565.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6561.419093750001,"end":6561.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6563.764718750001,"end":6576.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6567.89909375,"end":6568.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6576.99471875,"end":6585.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6585.19596875,"end":6585.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6585.786593750001,"end":6620.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6619.722218750001,"end":6645.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6645.89534375,"end":6650.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6649.725968750001,"end":6654.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6654.01221875,"end":6698.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6655.85159375,"end":6655.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6698.849093750001,"end":6699.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6700.215968750001,"end":6722.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6721.1747187500005,"end":6758.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6758.18159375,"end":6786.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6787.29096875,"end":6812.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6812.198468750001,"end":6850.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6850.42034375,"end":6867.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6868.13909375,"end":6874.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6874.534718750001,"end":6886.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6882.786593750001,"end":6882.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6887.005343750001,"end":6889.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6890.73471875,"end":6892.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6893.55284375,"end":6894.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6895.00409375,"end":6901.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6901.349093750001,"end":6933.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6934.204718750001,"end":6936.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6934.87971875,"end":6959.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6937.1747187500005,"end":6937.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6948.042218750001,"end":6949.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6958.065968750001,"end":6988.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6988.019093750001,"end":6993.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6994.1278437500005,"end":6999.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6999.409718750001,"end":7000.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7001.16471875,"end":7009.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7007.475968750001,"end":7041.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7042.13721875,"end":7091.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7091.749718750001,"end":7091.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7091.7665937500005,"end":7091.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7091.985968750001,"end":7092.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7092.20534375,"end":7096.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7092.779093749999,"end":7092.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7092.86346875,"end":7092.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7092.930968750001,"end":7092.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7095.58034375,"end":7095.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7098.82034375,"end":7102.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7110.835343750001,"end":7114.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7115.560343749999,"end":7116.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7119.30659375,"end":7119.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7120.23471875,"end":7175.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7175.92221875,"end":7180.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7181.1365937499995,"end":7184.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7185.28784375,"end":7190.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7190.7215937500005,"end":7195.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7195.80096875,"end":7221.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7221.80534375,"end":7233.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7234.46159375,"end":7235.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7235.45721875,"end":7236.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7237.212218750001,"end":7263.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7263.739718750001,"end":7266.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7267.215968750001,"end":7268.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7269.34221875,"end":7273.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7273.71284375,"end":7279.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7279.65284375,"end":7288.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7288.630343750001,"end":7300.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7301.050343750001,"end":7302.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7302.6365937499995,"end":7303.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7303.59846875,"end":7312.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7313.942843750001,"end":7316.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7316.710343750001,"end":7320.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7320.67596875,"end":7324.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7325.53596875,"end":7325.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7325.97471875,"end":7325.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7326.464093750001,"end":7326.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7326.48096875,"end":7326.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7326.90284375,"end":7326.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7327.69596875,"end":7353.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7353.548468750001,"end":7363.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7361.12534375,"end":7361.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7363.0322187500005,"end":7368.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7369.107218749999,"end":7370.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7370.372843749999,"end":7370.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7370.389718750001,"end":7370.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7370.40659375,"end":7374.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7370.4403437500005,"end":7374.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7374.33846875,"end":7383.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7374.4228437500005,"end":7377.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7380.48096875,"end":7383.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7383.33284375,"end":7401.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7401.608468750001,"end":7407.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7407.86909375,"end":7409.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7410.24846875,"end":7413.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7415.192843750001,"end":7418.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7418.02784375,"end":7430.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7418.21346875,"end":7418.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7418.73659375,"end":7419.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7431.89909375,"end":7435.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7435.679093750001,"end":7436.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7437.417218750001,"end":7438.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7439.577218750001,"end":7443.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7441.0790937500005,"end":7442.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7443.91409375,"end":7451.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7445.145968750001,"end":7446.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7447.03596875,"end":7447.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7451.92971875,"end":7453.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7452.48659375,"end":7455.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7455.70971875,"end":7457.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7458.02159375,"end":7458.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7459.60784375,"end":7486.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7487.16471875,"end":7493.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7493.83034375,"end":7505.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7506.267218750001,"end":7509.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7509.43971875,"end":7511.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7511.852843750001,"end":7513.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7513.27034375,"end":7514.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7514.16471875,"end":7514.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7514.434718750001,"end":7516.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7517.151593750001,"end":7517.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7518.06284375,"end":7522.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7522.19721875,"end":7535.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7536.15284375,"end":7539.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7540.388468749999,"end":7543.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7543.1728437500005,"end":7545.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7546.41284375,"end":7560.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7561.482218749999,"end":7604.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7604.665343750001,"end":7610.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7611.14534375,"end":7619.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7620.224093750001,"end":7621.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7622.55284375,"end":7637.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7637.40284375,"end":7640.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7641.58784375,"end":7645.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7645.73909375,"end":7653.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7653.67034375,"end":7674.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7674.932843750001,"end":7675.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7675.6415937500005,"end":7679.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7682.7459687499995,"end":7684.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7685.952218750001,"end":7700.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7701.07221875,"end":7718.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7719.0272187499995,"end":7721.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7722.182843750001,"end":7743.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7736.7459687499995,"end":7736.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7743.47909375,"end":7775.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7776.8240937499995,"end":7776.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7776.975968750001,"end":7789.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7787.32034375,"end":7789.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7789.88534375,"end":7789.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7789.98659375,"end":7795.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7790.003468750001,"end":7790.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7796.010968750001,"end":7811.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7812.02534375,"end":7812.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7812.43034375,"end":7812.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7812.44721875,"end":7812.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7812.464093750001,"end":7812.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7812.700343750001,"end":7812.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7812.80159375,"end":7812.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7812.835343750001,"end":7832.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7829.50784375,"end":7832.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7832.1572187500005,"end":7832.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7832.20784375,"end":7832.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7832.292218750001,"end":7832.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7832.35971875,"end":7832.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7832.3934687500005,"end":7832.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7832.64659375,"end":7839.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7833.11909375,"end":7833.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7837.304093750001,"end":7837.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7839.970343750001,"end":7851.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7851.0740937499995,"end":7867.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7867.45971875,"end":7867.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7867.999718750001,"end":7874.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7868.100968750001,"end":7868.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7874.614718750001,"end":7885.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7875.795968750001,"end":7876.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7882.47846875,"end":7884.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7885.296593750001,"end":7885.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7885.33034375,"end":7887.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7887.96284375,"end":7897.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7892.333468750001,"end":7893.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7898.35784375,"end":7908.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7909.3603437500005,"end":7919.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7919.63721875,"end":7923.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7924.4803437499995,"end":7935.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7936.19159375,"end":7939.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7940.562218750001,"end":7943.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7944.47721875,"end":7950.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7950.9403437500005,"end":7952.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7952.67846875,"end":7955.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7955.749718750001,"end":7957.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7957.960343750001,"end":7961.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7962.8709687499995,"end":7966.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7966.00971875,"end":7966.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7967.714093750001,"end":7970.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7970.54909375,"end":7972.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7971.224093750001,"end":7975.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7975.9490937499995,"end":7976.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7976.30346875,"end":7976.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7976.48909375,"end":7993.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7976.607218749999,"end":7977.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7993.88721875,"end":8005.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8006.17221875,"end":8011.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8014.79534375,"end":8019.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8019.368468750001,"end":8032.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8032.80096875,"end":8038.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8038.55534375,"end":8045.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8046.368468750001,"end":8046.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8047.22909375,"end":8052.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8053.84409375,"end":8068.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8069.385968750001,"end":8070.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8070.82034375,"end":8077.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8077.84034375,"end":8084.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8084.337218750001,"end":8087.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8088.62346875,"end":8091.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8091.66096875,"end":8095.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8096.68971875,"end":8098.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8099.87909375,"end":8104.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8105.41409375,"end":8107.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8107.860968750001,"end":8111.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8111.421593750001,"end":8114.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8115.134093750001,"end":8122.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8123.31846875,"end":8126.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8126.760968750001,"end":8132.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8132.68409375,"end":8144.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8144.479718750001,"end":8151.263468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8152.05659375,"end":8158.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8158.84034375,"end":8159.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8159.194718750001,"end":8159.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8159.22846875,"end":8159.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8160.089093750001,"end":8161.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8161.65846875,"end":8163.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8555.04846875,"end":8559.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8568.49784375,"end":8571.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8572.83471875,"end":8573.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8576.766593750002,"end":8578.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8579.01096875,"end":8635.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8636.68971875,"end":8636.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8636.925968750002,"end":8641.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8642.055968750003,"end":8678.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8643.76034375,"end":8644.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8679.45096875,"end":8679.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8679.585968750001,"end":8679.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8679.602843750003,"end":8679.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8679.77159375,"end":8679.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8680.14284375,"end":8683.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8682.117218750001,"end":8682.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8683.230968750002,"end":8683.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8683.973468750002,"end":8686.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8686.84221875,"end":8691.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8692.05659375,"end":8748.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8749.58346875,"end":8784.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8784.312218750001,"end":8790.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8790.539093750001,"end":8790.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8790.62346875,"end":8790.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8790.82596875,"end":8790.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8791.230968750002,"end":8791.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8791.31534375,"end":8793.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8793.47534375,"end":8802.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8797.761593750001,"end":8798.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8803.27971875,"end":8812.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8812.071593750003,"end":8816.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8812.375343750002,"end":8815.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8815.969718750002,"end":8816.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8817.08346875,"end":8830.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8828.84534375,"end":8833.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8833.43534375,"end":8845.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8845.72034375,"end":8847.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8847.47534375,"end":8849.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8849.753468750001,"end":8869.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8869.56471875,"end":8869.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8869.581593750001,"end":8872.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8873.00721875,"end":8876.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8877.64784375,"end":8890.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8879.352218750002,"end":8879.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8879.925968750002,"end":8880.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8890.55721875,"end":8892.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8890.60784375,"end":8893.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8892.312218750001,"end":8901.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8901.222218750001,"end":8909.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8909.54159375,"end":8920.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8915.059718750003,"end":8917.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8917.793468750002,"end":8917.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8917.945343750001,"end":8917.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8921.539718750002,"end":8928.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8928.171593750001,"end":8928.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8928.289718750002,"end":8928.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8928.42471875,"end":8933.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8928.45846875,"end":8928.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8928.509093750003,"end":8929.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8929.032218750002,"end":8936.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8936.96346875,"end":8973.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8940.86159375,"end":8941.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8941.03034375,"end":8941.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8941.40159375,"end":8941.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8950.21034375,"end":8950.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8966.84909375,"end":8967.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8973.41346875,"end":8982.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8982.45846875,"end":9019.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9003.09659375,"end":9003.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9003.957218750002,"end":9003.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9005.23971875,"end":9005.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9014.976593750001,"end":9015.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9019.49909375,"end":9019.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9020.680343750002,"end":9029.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9029.97846875,"end":9042.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9043.27596875,"end":9043.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9043.309718750003,"end":9043.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9044.609093750001,"end":9044.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9044.625968750002,"end":9046.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9046.212218750003,"end":9050.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9048.625343750002,"end":9052.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9051.34221875,"end":9051.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9053.14784375,"end":9066.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9059.03721875,"end":9059.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9067.06971875,"end":9069.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9071.254718750002,"end":9071.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9071.27159375,"end":9071.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9071.305343750002,"end":9071.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9071.37284375,"end":9071.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9071.47409375,"end":9072.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9072.621593750002,"end":9072.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9072.70596875,"end":9072.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9072.773468750001,"end":9074.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9074.089718750001,"end":9074.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9074.17409375,"end":9086.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9087.08346875,"end":9097.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9097.47846875,"end":9100.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9100.515968750002,"end":9103.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9102.895343750002,"end":9104.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9103.82346875,"end":9105.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9104.75159375,"end":9106.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9106.77659375,"end":9110.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9107.65409375,"end":9108.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9110.387843750003,"end":9111.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9111.34971875,"end":9119.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9120.42846875,"end":9121.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9120.85034375,"end":9126.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9125.05221875,"end":9125.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9125.997218750003,"end":9150.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9150.80346875,"end":9176.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9177.044093750003,"end":9204.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9204.58409375,"end":9204.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9205.680968750003,"end":9223.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9224.344718750002,"end":9228.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9228.68159375,"end":9231.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9228.715343750002,"end":9230.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9230.53784375,"end":9281.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9234.469718750002,"end":9234.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9234.48659375,"end":9234.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9234.520343750002,"end":9235.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9235.212218750003,"end":9235.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9259.20846875,"end":9259.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9282.124718750001,"end":9291.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9291.60846875,"end":9293.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9294.71346875,"end":9294.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9294.730343750001,"end":9295.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9296.215343750002,"end":9297.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9297.61596875,"end":9299.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9302.18909375,"end":9302.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9323.890343750001,"end":9326.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9327.214718750001,"end":9328.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9330.269093750001,"end":9330.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9330.74159375,"end":9331.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9332.83409375,"end":9337.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9337.559093750002,"end":9340.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9340.680968750003,"end":9341.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9342.199718750002,"end":9345.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9346.18221875,"end":9349.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9349.945343750001,"end":9359.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9358.872218750003,"end":9359.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9359.14221875,"end":9359.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9360.30659375,"end":9361.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9362.550968750002,"end":9367.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9367.59659375,"end":9374.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9374.954093750002,"end":9376.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9376.945343750001,"end":9384.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9385.028468750003,"end":9385.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9386.14221875,"end":9390.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9390.83346875,"end":9392.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9392.571593750003,"end":9405.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9405.56534375,"end":9408.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9408.77159375,"end":9410.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9411.387218750002,"end":9413.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9414.35721875,"end":9416.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9417.79971875,"end":9421.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9421.883468750002,"end":9421.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9421.96784375,"end":9430.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9431.28284375,"end":9432.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9433.172843750002,"end":9435.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9436.125968750002,"end":9437.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9437.47596875,"end":9440.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9440.68221875,"end":9446.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9447.195968750002,"end":9451.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9452.66346875,"end":9454.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9454.77284375,"end":9462.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9463.71659375,"end":9465.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9466.433468750001,"end":9467.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9468.40784375,"end":9472.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9472.727843750003,"end":9474.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9474.769718750002,"end":9475.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9475.765343750001,"end":9481.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9481.941593750002,"end":9484.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9485.046593750001,"end":9486.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9487.34159375,"end":9498.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9498.95159375,"end":9502.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9502.090343750002,"end":9502.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9502.20846875,"end":9502.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9502.44471875,"end":9502.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9503.237843750001,"end":9505.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9505.02659375,"end":9505.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9505.49909375,"end":9510.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9510.899093750002,"end":9511.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9512.24909375,"end":9513.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9513.582218750002,"end":9514.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9514.965968750003,"end":9521.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9521.15909375,"end":9521.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9522.52596875,"end":9523.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9523.656593750002,"end":9526.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9527.43659375,"end":9529.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9529.95096875,"end":9532.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9533.59596875,"end":9542.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9543.07971875,"end":9545.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9546.640343750001,"end":9548.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9548.749718750001,"end":9549.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9550.909718750001,"end":9552.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9553.12034375,"end":9554.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9554.79096875,"end":9559.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9560.950343750003,"end":9563.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9563.734718750002,"end":9565.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9566.012843750003,"end":9568.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9569.97846875,"end":9579.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9580.508468750002,"end":9583.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9584.69346875,"end":9584.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9585.351593750001,"end":9586.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9587.71409375,"end":9589.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9589.97534375,"end":9590.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9592.91159375,"end":9594.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9596.57346875,"end":9598.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9599.13846875,"end":9603.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9604.285343750002,"end":9610.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9611.879093750002,"end":9612.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9614.22471875,"end":9616.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9617.312843750002,"end":9618.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9619.48971875,"end":9621.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9621.93659375,"end":9623.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9623.65784375,"end":9640.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9625.14284375,"end":9626.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9626.03721875,"end":9626.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9626.10471875,"end":9626.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9641.781593750002,"end":9642.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9643.65471875,"end":9644.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9645.07221875,"end":9646.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9647.957843750002,"end":9650.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9650.539718750002,"end":9651.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9651.214718750001,"end":9657.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9655.500968750002,"end":9658.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9657.72846875,"end":9667.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9667.785968750002,"end":9673.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9674.28284375,"end":9676.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9676.88159375,"end":9681.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9681.04971875,"end":9681.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9681.72471875,"end":9690.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9691.512218750002,"end":9701.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9700.422218750002,"end":9703.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9705.19784375,"end":9705.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9705.46784375,"end":9706.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9705.99096875,"end":9706.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9706.851593750001,"end":9708.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9710.749718750001,"end":9713.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9719.558468750001,"end":9721.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9721.92096875,"end":9722.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9725.81909375,"end":9726.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9726.848468750002,"end":9727.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9729.278468750003,"end":9735.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9736.63596875,"end":9750.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9751.620968750001,"end":9761.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9761.56034375,"end":9772.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9772.64721875,"end":9795.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9795.715343750002,"end":9804.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9805.90784375,"end":9806.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9807.679718750001,"end":9809.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9810.632843750001,"end":9813.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9812.910968750002,"end":9813.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9814.379093750002,"end":9824.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9824.250968750002,"end":9833.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9831.254093750002,"end":9843.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9834.07221875,"end":9836.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9843.859718750002,"end":9854.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9854.659718750001,"end":9857.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9856.00971875,"end":9865.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9865.44284375,"end":9880.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9877.559093750002,"end":9878.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9879.95534375,"end":9884.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9884.528468750003,"end":9890.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9890.468468750001,"end":9898.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9897.52221875,"end":9922.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9900.340343750002,"end":9903.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9903.023468750001,"end":9904.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9905.75721875,"end":9906.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9909.773468750001,"end":9909.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9909.97596875,"end":9911.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9911.190968750001,"end":9911.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9913.77284375,"end":9914.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9922.26096875,"end":9927.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9927.930968750003,"end":9937.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9927.94784375,"end":9928.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9928.79159375,"end":9928.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9937.988468750002,"end":9942.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9942.59534375,"end":9944.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9943.101593750001,"end":9958.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9947.894093750001,"end":9949.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9959.082218750002,"end":9968.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9959.16659375,"end":9959.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9967.637843750003,"end":9971.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9971.789093750001,"end":9983.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9983.702843750001,"end":10010.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9983.719718750002,"end":9984.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9989.777843750002,"end":9989.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9989.89596875,"end":9990.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9990.53721875,"end":9990.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10010.500343750002,"end":10010.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10010.51721875,"end":10010.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10010.68596875,"end":10010.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10010.820968750002,"end":10010.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10010.95596875,"end":10012.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10010.972843750002,"end":10011.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10014.16221875,"end":10015.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10017.23346875,"end":10019.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10026.430343750002,"end":10028.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10029.55221875,"end":10030.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10030.902218750001,"end":10065.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10031.712218750003,"end":10031.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10065.344093750002,"end":10078.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10078.91159375,"end":10092.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10082.370968750001,"end":10082.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10092.074093750001,"end":10093.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10092.69846875,"end":10119.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10119.394718750002,"end":10130.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10125.63846875,"end":10127.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10129.637843750003,"end":10135.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10134.76784375,"end":10138.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10136.421593750001,"end":10137.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10138.41284375,"end":10142.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10141.58534375,"end":10151.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10149.53346875,"end":10156.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10155.49034375,"end":10156.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10156.266593750002,"end":10156.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10156.65471875,"end":10164.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10156.85721875,"end":10157.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10161.97034375,"end":10199.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10199.36534375,"end":10200.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10200.124718750001,"end":10228.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10228.829093750002,"end":10232.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10233.503468750001,"end":10260.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10260.570968750002,"end":10311.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10312.54596875,"end":10320.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10321.253468750001,"end":10340.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10341.26721875,"end":10368.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10369.347218750001,"end":10377.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10378.054718750001,"end":10398.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10385.547218750002,"end":10387.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10398.574718750002,"end":10407.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10405.24034375,"end":10412.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10407.87284375,"end":10408.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10410.707843750002,"end":10411.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10411.72034375,"end":10411.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10412.800343750001,"end":10417.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10418.01471875,"end":10418.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10420.02284375,"end":10422.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10422.402218750001,"end":10432.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10423.53284375,"end":10427.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10427.312843750002,"end":10427.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10431.02534375,"end":10431.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10431.059093750002,"end":10432.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10434.56909375,"end":10436.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10437.167843750001,"end":10439.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10448.153468750003,"end":10449.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10450.06034375,"end":10450.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10453.165343750003,"end":10453.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10454.211593750002,"end":10454.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10455.004718750002,"end":10455.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10455.07221875,"end":10455.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10455.527843750002,"end":10456.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10456.23659375,"end":10457.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10458.312218750001,"end":10459.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10459.645343750002,"end":10466.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10467.40784375,"end":10469.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10469.601593750001,"end":10470.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10470.175343750001,"end":10473.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10474.57971875,"end":10476.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10476.80721875,"end":10485.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10485.98721875,"end":10486.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10487.87721875,"end":10489.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10489.750343750002,"end":10492.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10493.867843750002,"end":10498.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10498.12034375,"end":10499.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10502.102843750003,"end":10505.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10505.76471875,"end":10506.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10506.726593750001,"end":10507.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10509.375968750002,"end":10510.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10511.046593750001,"end":10511.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10512.19409375,"end":10512.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10513.442843750003,"end":10514.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10515.87284375,"end":10516.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10518.25221875,"end":10519.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10520.614718750003,"end":10522.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10522.875968750002,"end":10523.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10523.06159375,"end":10523.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10524.512843750003,"end":10530.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10527.95534375,"end":10528.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10530.95909375,"end":10531.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10531.684718750003,"end":10537.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10532.039093750001,"end":10532.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10533.355343750001,"end":10534.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10536.899093750002,"end":10541.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10542.737843750001,"end":10543.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10544.47596875,"end":10546.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10546.88909375,"end":10547.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10547.83409375,"end":10556.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10548.492218750001,"end":10548.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10556.96346875,"end":10562.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10562.27909375,"end":10564.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10565.40096875,"end":10566.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10565.485343750002,"end":10568.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10568.117843750002,"end":10569.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10569.92346875,"end":10572.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10572.52221875,"end":10574.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10575.036593750003,"end":10576.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10577.145968750003,"end":10580.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10578.614093750002,"end":10578.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10578.64784375,"end":10578.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10578.69846875,"end":10579.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10579.508468750002,"end":10579.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10580.16659375,"end":10580.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10580.63909375,"end":10580.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10582.039718750002,"end":10582.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10582.292843750001,"end":10582.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10582.309718750003,"end":10582.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10582.815968750001,"end":10584.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10584.824093750001,"end":10588.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10588.33409375,"end":10591.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10592.333468750003,"end":10593.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10594.122218750003,"end":10595.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10596.704093750002,"end":10597.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10597.075343750003,"end":10598.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10598.695343750001,"end":10599.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10600.14659375,"end":10600.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10600.500968750002,"end":10601.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10600.922843750002,"end":10602.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10602.340343750002,"end":10606.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10604.88846875,"end":10609.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10609.12409375,"end":10610.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10610.929718750001,"end":10611.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10611.38534375,"end":10611.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10613.190968750001,"end":10614.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10614.16971875,"end":10615.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10616.54909375,"end":10617.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10617.91596875,"end":10619.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10619.60346875,"end":10619.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10620.19409375,"end":10624.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10625.712218750003,"end":10625.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10625.745968750001,"end":10626.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10625.88096875,"end":10628.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10629.390968750002,"end":10636.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10635.90471875,"end":10642.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10637.507843750001,"end":10637.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10642.722218750001,"end":10643.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10644.51096875,"end":10654.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10647.46409375,"end":10647.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10647.953468750002,"end":10647.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10647.97034375,"end":10648.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10648.645343750002,"end":10649.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10649.15159375,"end":10649.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10655.56409375,"end":10660.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10661.26784375,"end":10668.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10668.203468750002,"end":10671.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10671.747218750003,"end":10674.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10674.61596875,"end":10677.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10676.52284375,"end":10676.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10676.57346875,"end":10676.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10676.843468750001,"end":10678.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10679.239718750003,"end":10680.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10681.73721875,"end":10682.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10682.969093750002,"end":10682.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10682.98596875,"end":10683.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10683.25596875,"end":10683.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10683.27284375,"end":10683.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10684.15034375,"end":10684.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10685.09534375,"end":10686.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10686.47909375,"end":10687.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10688.942843750003,"end":10690.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10691.777843750002,"end":10700.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10694.005343750003,"end":10694.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10696.43534375,"end":10696.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10700.485343750002,"end":10702.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10702.274093750002,"end":10702.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10704.602843750003,"end":10704.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10704.653468750003,"end":10704.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10705.31159375,"end":10706.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10708.16346875,"end":10713.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10710.036593750003,"end":10725.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10719.942218750002,"end":10720.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10724.937218750001,"end":10725.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10725.44346875,"end":10733.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10733.83034375,"end":10746.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10738.065968750001,"end":10738.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10738.285343750002,"end":10738.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10743.58409375,"end":10744.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10746.520343750002,"end":10746.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10747.60034375,"end":10748.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10749.92909375,"end":10750.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10750.75596875,"end":10751.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10752.797843750002,"end":10754.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10754.62034375,"end":10755.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10755.953468750002,"end":10763.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10763.699093750001,"end":10764.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10764.812843750002,"end":10765.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10766.449718750002,"end":10768.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10769.149718750003,"end":10774.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10774.60034375,"end":10779.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10776.60846875,"end":10777.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10779.257843750001,"end":10781.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10780.000343750002,"end":10780.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10780.03409375,"end":10780.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10780.422218750002,"end":10780.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10781.805968750003,"end":10791.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10781.839718750001,"end":10781.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10781.97471875,"end":10782.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10782.02534375,"end":10782.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10782.227843750003,"end":10782.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10790.88471875,"end":10792.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10793.027843750002,"end":10797.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10793.230343750001,"end":10794.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10794.15846875,"end":10794.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10794.20909375,"end":10796.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10797.550343750001,"end":10798.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10798.22534375,"end":10804.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10799.777843750002,"end":10800.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10801.06034375,"end":10802.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10802.730968750002,"end":10803.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10803.50721875,"end":10809.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10809.750968750002,"end":10813.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10809.76784375,"end":10809.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10810.054718750001,"end":10812.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10813.581593750001,"end":10815.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10814.425343750001,"end":10819.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10817.85096875,"end":10818.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10819.57221875,"end":10835.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10835.23221875,"end":10836.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10836.07596875,"end":10837.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10837.645343750002,"end":10838.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10838.843468750001,"end":10844.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10845.087218750003,"end":10855.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10856.005343750003,"end":10857.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10858.215968750003,"end":10861.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10861.60784375,"end":10862.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10863.98721875,"end":10865.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10866.113468750002,"end":10875.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10876.778468750003,"end":10877.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10878.75284375,"end":10880.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10880.81159375,"end":10882.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10883.477843750003,"end":10883.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10884.59159375,"end":10888.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10888.92846875,"end":10894.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10894.51409375,"end":10894.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10895.13846875,"end":10896.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10896.82596875,"end":10906.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10906.69784375,"end":10908.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10910.055968750003,"end":10910.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10912.114718750003,"end":10914.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10914.696593750003,"end":10915.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10916.18159375,"end":10917.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10919.08409375,"end":10920.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10921.176593750002,"end":10926.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10926.981593750003,"end":10930.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10931.183468750001,"end":10931.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10931.453468750002,"end":10939.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10937.528468750003,"end":10942.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10943.164718750002,"end":10950.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10948.46346875,"end":10948.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10950.117218750001,"end":10955.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10955.719718750002,"end":10970.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10970.23221875,"end":10974.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10974.09659375,"end":10974.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10975.480343750001,"end":10978.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10975.61534375,"end":10975.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10979.074718750002,"end":10980.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10979.800343750001,"end":10980.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10981.605968750002,"end":10981.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10981.909718750001,"end":10982.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10982.63534375,"end":10983.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10983.47909375,"end":10985.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10986.094718750002,"end":10991.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10992.304718750001,"end":10995.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10995.696593750003,"end":10996.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10995.98346875,"end":11000.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11000.92784375,"end":11004.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11003.864093750002,"end":11004.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11004.167843750001,"end":11004.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11004.657218750002,"end":11005.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11006.277218750001,"end":11007.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11008.94346875,"end":11010.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11011.238468750002,"end":11012.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11013.465968750003,"end":11013.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11014.49534375,"end":11015.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11015.204093750002,"end":11016.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11017.043468750002,"end":11017.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11018.207843750002,"end":11019.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11019.574718750002,"end":11019.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11020.418468750002,"end":11020.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11021.886593750001,"end":11022.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11023.590968750003,"end":11024.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11024.82284375,"end":11025.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11027.640968750002,"end":11029.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11029.31159375,"end":11029.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11029.78409375,"end":11030.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11030.340968750003,"end":11030.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11030.40846875,"end":11030.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11030.644718750002,"end":11030.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11030.661593750003,"end":11032.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11032.922843750002,"end":11033.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11035.926593750002,"end":11037.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11037.90096875,"end":11040.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11040.70221875,"end":11042.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11043.030968750001,"end":11043.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11043.874718750001,"end":11045.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11046.794093750003,"end":11047.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11048.29596875,"end":11049.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11050.000343750002,"end":11050.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11051.19846875,"end":11053.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11053.98284375,"end":11061.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11062.09971875,"end":11066.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11065.019093750001,"end":11067.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11067.415343750003,"end":11069.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11069.204093750002,"end":11073.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11073.878468750001,"end":11098.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11098.515968750002,"end":11107.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11105.99159375,"end":11107.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11108.55659375,"end":11109.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11110.41284375,"end":11113.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11115.239093750002,"end":11115.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11119.980968750002,"end":11124.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11124.722843750002,"end":11125.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11128.13159375,"end":11128.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11128.60409375,"end":11146.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11130.49409375,"end":11130.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11131.169093750003,"end":11132.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11132.77221875,"end":11133.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11146.609718750002,"end":11152.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11152.566593750002,"end":11153.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11153.140343750001,"end":11205.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11206.144718750002,"end":11207.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11207.427218750003,"end":11209.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11209.43534375,"end":11216.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11216.894093750001,"end":11243.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11238.679718750001,"end":11238.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11243.640968750002,"end":11244.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11245.19346875,"end":11249.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11249.277218750001,"end":11252.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11251.21784375,"end":11297.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11256.22971875,"end":11256.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11282.06534375,"end":11282.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11283.65159375,"end":11283.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11298.552218750003,"end":11311.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11311.664093750001,"end":11315.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11315.933468750001,"end":11323.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11324.20221875,"end":11346.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11347.202843750001,"end":11352.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11353.649093750002,"end":11363.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11362.94721875,"end":11368.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11369.07284375,"end":11369.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11369.089718750001,"end":11369.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11370.18659375,"end":11386.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11374.202843750001,"end":11374.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11387.129093750002,"end":11424.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11425.01346875,"end":11430.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11430.39659375,"end":11433.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11431.577843750001,"end":11431.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11431.78034375,"end":11432.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11432.03346875,"end":11432.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11432.640968750002,"end":11432.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11432.843468750001,"end":11432.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11433.754718750002,"end":11434.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11433.77159375,"end":11433.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11434.14284375,"end":11442.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11439.019718750002,"end":11439.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11439.036593750003,"end":11439.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11439.492218750001,"end":11439.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11443.20471875,"end":11446.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11447.254718750002,"end":11449.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11450.950343750003,"end":11451.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11452.587218750003,"end":11454.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11456.45159375,"end":11456.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11457.24471875,"end":11465.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11465.51346875,"end":11476.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11476.617218750001,"end":11497.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11497.57596875,"end":11500.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11500.765343750001,"end":11502.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11502.469718750002,"end":11503.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11503.54971875,"end":11515.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11515.598468750002,"end":11520.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11518.534718750001,"end":11553.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11538.54846875,"end":11538.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11538.56534375,"end":11538.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11538.97034375,"end":11539.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11542.395968750003,"end":11543.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11543.03721875,"end":11543.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11543.56034375,"end":11543.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11547.458468750003,"end":11547.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11547.74534375,"end":11547.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11547.812843750002,"end":11547.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11551.879718750002,"end":11553.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11553.887843750003,"end":11553.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11554.84971875,"end":11555.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11556.570968750002,"end":11559.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11572.09596875,"end":11575.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11575.16721875,"end":11575.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11575.184093750002,"end":11576.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11578.305968750003,"end":11578.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11578.32284375,"end":11578.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11578.761593750001,"end":11580.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11580.449093750001,"end":11580.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11580.972218750001,"end":11582.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11583.452843750001,"end":11584.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11585.477843750003,"end":11586.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11586.59159375,"end":11588.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11588.54909375,"end":11591.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11592.07596875,"end":11592.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11593.324718750002,"end":11596.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11597.070968750002,"end":11597.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11598.67409375,"end":11599.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11599.230968750002,"end":11599.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11599.88909375,"end":11604.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11604.05721875,"end":11604.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11604.20909375,"end":11604.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11604.68159375,"end":11604.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11605.356593750003,"end":11608.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11609.085968750001,"end":11610.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11610.790343750003,"end":11612.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11612.933468750001,"end":11616.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11616.24096875,"end":11619.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11618.434718750003,"end":11619.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11619.582218750002,"end":11628.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11628.964718750001,"end":11630.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11630.618468750003,"end":11631.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11632.710968750001,"end":11634.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11635.259093750003,"end":11644.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11640.034718750001,"end":11641.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11643.12284375,"end":11644.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11645.29971875,"end":11646.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11647.054718750001,"end":11650.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11650.581593750001,"end":11653.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11653.652843750002,"end":11655.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11655.52596875,"end":11656.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11657.36534375,"end":11670.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11671.202843750001,"end":11671.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11671.43909375,"end":11672.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11672.063468750002,"end":11684.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11684.58471875,"end":11686.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11686.47471875,"end":11699.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11699.063468750002,"end":11724.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11724.730343750001,"end":11751.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11750.532218750002,"end":11754.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11754.44721875,"end":11763.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11762.53034375,"end":11762.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11763.559718750003,"end":11796.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11798.609093750001,"end":11799.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11798.64284375,"end":11799.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11799.098468750002,"end":11799.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11799.351593750001,"end":11799.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11799.38534375,"end":11799.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11800.17846875,"end":11812.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11811.77159375,"end":11818.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11818.67346875,"end":11827.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11825.676593750002,"end":11832.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11832.46034375,"end":11832.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11832.96659375,"end":11833.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11833.641593750002,"end":11834.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11833.70909375,"end":11834.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11835.059093750002,"end":11835.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11835.734093750001,"end":11843.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11843.73284375,"end":11863.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11863.493468750003,"end":11867.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11868.134093750003,"end":11879.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11878.07346875,"end":11878.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11880.13221875,"end":11880.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11880.739718750003,"end":11889.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11885.785343750002,"end":11886.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11886.44346875,"end":11887.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11888.55284375,"end":11901.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11890.594718750002,"end":11890.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11901.462218750003,"end":11904.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11904.43221875,"end":11904.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11904.449093750001,"end":11904.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11904.887843750003,"end":11911.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11911.215968750003,"end":11926.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11916.39659375,"end":11917.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11927.04471875,"end":11940.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11940.44346875,"end":11940.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11940.86534375,"end":11940.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11940.96659375,"end":11940.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11940.98346875,"end":11941.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11944.155968750001,"end":11945.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11946.36659375,"end":11948.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11958.80346875,"end":11959.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11961.01409375,"end":11961.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11964.304718750001,"end":11964.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11964.60846875,"end":11965.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11966.65034375,"end":11970.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11971.594718750002,"end":11972.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11972.742218750001,"end":11984.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11985.80346875,"end":11988.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11989.195343750001,"end":11992.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11993.24534375,"end":11994.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11995.523468750001,"end":11996.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11996.97471875,"end":12000.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12001.750343750002,"end":12002.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12002.712218750003,"end":12023.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12020.02596875,"end":12020.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12023.24909375,"end":12033.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12033.644093750001,"end":12042.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12042.621593750002,"end":12051.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12052.30784375,"end":12052.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12053.910968750002,"end":12058.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12058.24784375,"end":12058.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12059.648468750001,"end":12060.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12061.504718750002,"end":12063.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12064.06971875,"end":12064.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12065.68971875,"end":12074.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12074.29596875,"end":12082.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12083.020343750002,"end":12084.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12085.51784375,"end":12092.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12090.42846875,"end":12092.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12092.200343750003,"end":12092.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12092.571593750003,"end":12099.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12100.148468750001,"end":12107.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12108.45096875,"end":12110.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12111.30284375,"end":12111.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12112.281593750002,"end":12117.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12117.68159375,"end":12127.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12127.90784375,"end":12139.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12139.399718750003,"end":12141.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12140.699093750001,"end":12145.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12144.985343750002,"end":12145.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12145.035968750002,"end":12146.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12146.031593750002,"end":12160.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12156.578468750002,"end":12157.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12160.645343750002,"end":12161.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12161.168468750002,"end":12167.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12167.98596875,"end":12168.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12168.340343750002,"end":12192.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12177.317843750003,"end":12177.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12193.56846875,"end":12194.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12195.10409375,"end":12196.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12196.53846875,"end":12222.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12222.593468750001,"end":12222.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12222.62721875,"end":12222.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12222.72846875,"end":12222.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12223.11659375,"end":12224.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12225.22596875,"end":12226.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12227.402843750002,"end":12230.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12231.33471875,"end":12244.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12245.52659375,"end":12251.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12251.90534375,"end":12252.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12252.42846875,"end":12257.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12252.512843750003,"end":12252.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12252.52971875,"end":12252.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12257.91284375,"end":12296.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12294.98721875,"end":12295.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12296.94471875,"end":12297.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12297.974093750003,"end":12303.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12303.67784375,"end":12308.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12308.301593750002,"end":12316.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12316.367843750002,"end":12322.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12322.206593750001,"end":12322.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12322.645343750002,"end":12338.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12338.777843750002,"end":12339.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12339.452843750001,"end":12371.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12342.524093750002,"end":12343.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12350.269718750002,"end":12351.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12371.71784375,"end":12374.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12371.92034375,"end":12373.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12374.805968750003,"end":12387.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12386.129093750002,"end":12387.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12388.05284375,"end":12390.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12399.645968750003,"end":12399.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12399.96659375,"end":12400.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12400.03409375,"end":12401.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12401.35034375,"end":12402.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12405.231593750003,"end":12437.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12438.20534375,"end":12449.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12449.59596875,"end":12449.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12449.612843750001,"end":12451.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12451.570343750001,"end":12456.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12456.66659375,"end":12456.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12456.683468750001,"end":12457.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12457.071593750003,"end":12474.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12460.24409375,"end":12461.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12466.11659375,"end":12466.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12466.133468750002,"end":12467.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12468.462218750003,"end":12469.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12471.85409375,"end":12472.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12473.59221875,"end":12474.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12474.570968750002,"end":12487.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12481.43909375,"end":12482.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12483.750968750002,"end":12483.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12483.76784375,"end":12484.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12484.03784375,"end":12484.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12484.965968750003,"end":12485.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12485.03346875,"end":12487.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12487.88534375,"end":12488.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12488.762843750003,"end":12502.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12498.786593750003,"end":12499.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12500.59221875,"end":12501.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12501.891593750002,"end":12530.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12503.629718750002,"end":12504.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12504.43971875,"end":12504.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12508.472843750002,"end":12509.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12510.09284375,"end":12514.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12524.352218750002,"end":12524.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12531.692843750003,"end":12560.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12560.144093750001,"end":12562.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12562.692218750002,"end":12591.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12591.44721875,"end":12591.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12591.46409375,"end":12601.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12602.280968750001,"end":12607.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12602.972843750002,"end":12603.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12604.727843750003,"end":12606.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12608.44034375,"end":12608.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12610.27971875,"end":12612.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12612.456593750001,"end":12617.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12615.274718750003,"end":12615.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12618.97034375,"end":12622.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12621.737843750001,"end":12622.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12622.125968750002,"end":12622.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12622.41284375,"end":12623.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12623.391593750002,"end":12631.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12626.648468750001,"end":12627.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12627.30659375,"end":12627.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12632.31846875,"end":12655.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12652.349093750003,"end":12652.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12656.04471875,"end":12660.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12659.099093750003,"end":12664.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12664.887218750002,"end":12664.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12664.92096875,"end":12665.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12665.005343750003,"end":12667.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12665.02221875,"end":12667.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12667.70534375,"end":12681.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12674.489093750002,"end":12674.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12674.50596875,"end":12675.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12676.969718750002,"end":12677.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12680.04096875,"end":12694.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12685.930343750002,"end":12686.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12691.95471875,"end":12694.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12694.03034375,"end":12694.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12694.722218750001,"end":12699.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12694.97534375,"end":12695.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12695.02596875,"end":12695.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12695.515343750001,"end":12696.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12699.19409375,"end":12710.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12706.770968750003,"end":12708.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12709.656593750002,"end":12715.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12715.52909375,"end":12717.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12717.80721875,"end":12717.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12717.85784375,"end":12745.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12718.296593750001,"end":12718.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12743.153468750003,"end":12744.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12744.48659375,"end":12763.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12750.03846875,"end":12750.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12750.679718750001,"end":12750.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12754.847843750002,"end":12756.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12756.02909375,"end":12756.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12756.45096875,"end":12756.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12762.829718750003,"end":12763.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12764.179718750001,"end":12765.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12766.10346875,"end":12806.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12766.137218750002,"end":12766.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12767.31846875,"end":12768.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12771.824093750001,"end":12771.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12771.840968750003,"end":12772.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12779.50221875,"end":12779.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12785.62784375,"end":12786.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12787.83846875,"end":12788.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12805.28721875,"end":12805.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12805.30409375,"end":12805.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12805.60784375,"end":12805.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12807.379718750002,"end":12816.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12815.90159375,"end":12815.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12815.918468750002,"end":12816.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12816.036593750003,"end":12816.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12816.964718750001,"end":12817.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12817.63971875,"end":12817.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12817.656593750002,"end":12817.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12817.808468750001,"end":12818.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12818.01096875,"end":12819.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12819.64784375,"end":12841.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12821.53784375,"end":12821.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12824.136593750001,"end":12825.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12842.344718750002,"end":12842.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12842.395343750002,"end":12850.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12849.921593750001,"end":12853.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12853.364093750002,"end":12860.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12854.27534375,"end":12854.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12855.23721875,"end":12856.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12859.40534375,"end":12860.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12860.907218750002,"end":12876.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12876.820343750001,"end":12882.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12880.92096875,"end":12883.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12883.82346875,"end":12883.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12883.890968750002,"end":12888.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12888.362843750001,"end":12896.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12893.594093750002,"end":12894.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12894.859718750002,"end":12900.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12901.019093750001,"end":12907.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12906.317843750003,"end":12919.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12912.98346875,"end":12913.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12919.78409375,"end":12921.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12921.79221875,"end":12939.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12929.200343750003,"end":12929.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12938.39721875,"end":12938.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12939.07221875,"end":12960.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12949.56846875,"end":12949.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12959.423468750003,"end":12971.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12965.481593750003,"end":12967.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12970.375343750002,"end":12971.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12971.40471875,"end":12973.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12973.969718750002,"end":12973.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12973.98659375,"end":12974.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12974.003468750001,"end":12976.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12974.020343750002,"end":12975.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12975.015968750002,"end":12977.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12977.00721875,"end":12977.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12978.79596875,"end":12979.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12980.669093750003,"end":12982.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12989.629718750002,"end":12992.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12992.414093750001,"end":12993.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12995.687843750002,"end":13009.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12997.03784375,"end":12997.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13009.96409375,"end":13028.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13028.965343750002,"end":13029.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13029.04971875,"end":13031.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13029.066593750002,"end":13029.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13031.41221875,"end":13031.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13031.42909375,"end":13048.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13032.711593750002,"end":13032.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13037.571593750003,"end":13038.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13038.820343750001,"end":13039.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13039.12409375,"end":13039.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13040.457218750002,"end":13040.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13040.69346875,"end":13040.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13040.81159375,"end":13040.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13049.23221875,"end":13054.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13054.24409375,"end":13067.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13067.44034375,"end":13067.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13067.54159375,"end":13116.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13092.33096875,"end":13092.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13116.192218750002,"end":13149.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13149.520343750002,"end":13169.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13169.41596875,"end":13189.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13189.78409375,"end":13211.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13211.687843750002,"end":13219.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13220.142218750003,"end":13229.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13229.71034375,"end":13232.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13233.220343750003,"end":13234.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13235.29596875,"end":13242.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13243.328468750002,"end":13243.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13244.47596875,"end":13248.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13248.542843750001,"end":13251.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13250.027843750002,"end":13250.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13251.715343750002,"end":13254.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13255.360343750002,"end":13257.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13255.394093750001,"end":13255.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13256.64284375,"end":13257.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13257.33471875,"end":13257.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13258.212218750003,"end":13264.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13264.60784375,"end":13273.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13271.94846875,"end":13274.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13274.969093750002,"end":13277.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13278.64784375,"end":13284.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13281.11159375,"end":13281.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13281.769718750002,"end":13281.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13285.12784375,"end":13308.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13287.675968750002,"end":13288.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13289.262218750002,"end":13289.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13289.886593750001,"end":13290.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13293.430343750002,"end":13294.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13294.375343750002,"end":13294.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13295.387843750003,"end":13295.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13295.40471875,"end":13295.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13295.657843750003,"end":13295.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13299.99471875,"end":13300.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13309.461593750002,"end":13311.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13312.81971875,"end":13313.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13314.524093750002,"end":13316.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13317.07221875,"end":13318.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13318.18596875,"end":13319.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13319.55284375,"end":13324.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13325.121593750002,"end":13365.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13365.824093750001,"end":13368.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13367.984093750001,"end":13373.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13370.903468750003,"end":13371.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13373.23221875,"end":13374.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13374.261593750001,"end":13374.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13374.34596875,"end":13374.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13374.599093750003,"end":13374.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13374.784718750001,"end":13379.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13376.94471875,"end":13379.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13379.93159375,"end":13384.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13379.98221875,"end":13380.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13385.095343750003,"end":13393.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13388.149718750003,"end":13388.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13392.722843750002,"end":13393.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13394.32596875,"end":13404.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13405.227218750002,"end":13407.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13405.868468750003,"end":13405.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13405.88534375,"end":13406.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13407.62346875,"end":13411.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13409.749718750001,"end":13412.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13412.06159375,"end":13413.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13412.63534375,"end":13412.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13413.023468750001,"end":13414.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13413.22596875,"end":13413.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13413.64784375,"end":13413.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13413.74909375,"end":13413.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13417.00596875,"end":13419.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13419.28409375,"end":13421.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13430.67471875,"end":13433.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13433.644718750002,"end":13434.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13436.53034375,"end":13436.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13436.88471875,"end":13439.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13442.571593750003,"end":13443.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13443.719093750002,"end":13447.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13447.33034375,"end":13449.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13451.110343750002,"end":13452.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13452.54471875,"end":13455.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13456.122218750003,"end":13456.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13457.421593750001,"end":13458.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13457.72534375,"end":13459.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13460.72909375,"end":13464.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13465.774718750003,"end":13465.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13465.79159375,"end":13466.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13467.394718750002,"end":13467.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13467.782843750003,"end":13472.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13468.54221875,"end":13469.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13473.53721875,"end":13483.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13483.695968750002,"end":13487.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13487.661593750003,"end":13491.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13494.884093750003,"end":13495.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13501.81971875,"end":13502.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13503.54096875,"end":13504.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13507.067843750003,"end":13507.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13507.101593750001,"end":13507.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13507.13534375,"end":13507.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13507.962218750003,"end":13508.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13508.56971875,"end":13509.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13509.700343750003,"end":13514.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13514.965343750002,"end":13514.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13514.99909375,"end":13516.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13516.028468750003,"end":13516.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13517.31096875,"end":13517.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13517.327843750001,"end":13517.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13517.445968750002,"end":13517.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13518.42471875,"end":13519.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13519.89284375,"end":13520.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13522.15409375,"end":13526.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13526.81159375,"end":13527.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13528.094093750002,"end":13544.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13545.458468750003,"end":13558.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13558.70534375,"end":13560.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13560.257843750001,"end":13565.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13565.742218750001,"end":13572.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13569.04971875,"end":13569.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13569.066593750002,"end":13570.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13571.648468750001,"end":13574.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13574.85471875,"end":13579.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13580.49096875,"end":13586.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13580.727218750002,"end":13580.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13587.19034375,"end":13590.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13587.224093750003,"end":13587.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13587.409718750001,"end":13587.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13587.46034375,"end":13587.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13590.278468750003,"end":13594.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13592.438468750002,"end":13602.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13597.382843750001,"end":13597.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13602.52971875,"end":13606.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13606.562843750002,"end":13610.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13610.81534375,"end":13611.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13611.16971875,"end":13615.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13616.114093750002,"end":13620.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13620.957218750002,"end":13628.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13626.99846875,"end":13627.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13627.673468750003,"end":13635.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13630.74471875,"end":13631.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13631.33534375,"end":13632.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13635.250343750002,"end":13652.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13653.137843750003,"end":13667.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13666.35096875,"end":13666.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13666.941593750002,"end":13667.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13667.02596875,"end":13667.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13667.363468750002,"end":13667.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13668.055343750002,"end":13672.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13672.88159375,"end":13686.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13686.938468750002,"end":13688.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13688.86221875,"end":13691.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13691.86596875,"end":13698.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13698.86909375,"end":13700.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13701.113468750002,"end":13705.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13705.56846875,"end":13712.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13713.128468750001,"end":13720.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13721.093468750001,"end":13722.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13722.679718750001,"end":13729.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13730.020343750002,"end":13733.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13734.019718750002,"end":13736.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13737.917843750001,"end":13741.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13741.79909375,"end":13745.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13744.347218750001,"end":13745.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13745.477843750003,"end":13750.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13748.009093750003,"end":13760.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13752.126593750003,"end":13753.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13753.915343750003,"end":13753.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13755.079718750003,"end":13755.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13760.05784375,"end":13760.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13760.277218750001,"end":13773.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13760.47971875,"end":13760.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13760.496593750002,"end":13760.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13766.31846875,"end":13766.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13766.976593750001,"end":13767.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13767.027218750001,"end":13767.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13767.28034375,"end":13767.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13773.23721875,"end":13783.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13782.87284375,"end":13788.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13783.328468750002,"end":13783.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13787.78346875,"end":13791.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13789.335968750001,"end":13789.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13790.399093750002,"end":13804.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13791.63096875,"end":13791.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13793.352218750002,"end":13793.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13805.316593750002,"end":13805.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13805.62034375,"end":13805.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13805.65409375,"end":13806.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13807.544093750003,"end":13808.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13809.231593750003,"end":13814.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13812.066593750002,"end":13812.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13814.969093750002,"end":13827.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13828.620968750001,"end":13830.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13831.439093750003,"end":13837.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13839.589718750001,"end":13847.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13847.942843750003,"end":13849.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13849.86659375,"end":13860.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13852.718468750001,"end":13853.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13860.278468750003,"end":13876.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13874.925968750002,"end":13882.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13882.469093750002,"end":13882.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13882.907843750003,"end":13883.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13883.54909375,"end":13883.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13884.527843750002,"end":13885.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13885.33784375,"end":13889.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13889.168468750002,"end":13889.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13889.286593750003,"end":13897.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13897.825343750003,"end":13900.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13897.859093750001,"end":13901.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13901.571593750003,"end":13901.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13901.993468750003,"end":13903.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13903.27596875,"end":13920.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13903.59659375,"end":13904.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13906.97159375,"end":13907.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13921.112843750001,"end":13924.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13923.981593750003,"end":13928.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13925.04471875,"end":13925.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13927.47471875,"end":13927.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13928.38596875,"end":13942.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13942.61159375,"end":13957.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13957.410968750002,"end":13959.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13960.22909375,"end":13963.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13963.570343750001,"end":13968.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13968.970343750003,"end":14000.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14000.847218750001,"end":14002.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14003.88471875,"end":14006.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14005.04909375,"end":14010.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14010.43221875,"end":14017.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14010.769718750002,"end":14012.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14017.82346875,"end":14019.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14019.96659375,"end":14020.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14020.793468750002,"end":14020.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14021.535968750002,"end":14021.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14021.55284375,"end":14023.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14023.93221875,"end":14030.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14030.378468750001,"end":14044.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14044.60409375,"end":14052.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14049.34596875,"end":14049.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14050.30784375,"end":14050.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14052.754718750002,"end":14054.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14052.83909375,"end":14056.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14059.52159375,"end":14061.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14062.47471875,"end":14065.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14066.28846875,"end":14068.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14068.684718750003,"end":14068.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14069.477843750003,"end":14069.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14070.304718750001,"end":14070.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14071.97534375,"end":14072.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14072.802218750003,"end":14074.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14072.835968750001,"end":14072.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14084.699093750001,"end":14085.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14395.165343750003,"end":14397.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14398.101593750001,"end":14400.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14402.10096875,"end":14402.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14404.649093750002,"end":14404.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14405.62784375,"end":14406.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14406.72471875,"end":14409.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14410.065968750001,"end":14410.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14412.563468750002,"end":14414.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14414.504093750002,"end":14415.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14415.567218750002,"end":14417.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14418.503468750001,"end":14419.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14422.08096875,"end":14422.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14425.23659375,"end":14429.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14429.894093750001,"end":14431.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14434.484093750001,"end":14435.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14436.15471875,"end":14436.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14437.36971875,"end":14437.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14439.040343750003,"end":14439.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14441.21721875,"end":14442.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14443.05659375,"end":14445.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14453.55284375,"end":14454.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14455.004093750002,"end":14462.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14463.289718750002,"end":14463.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14464.36971875,"end":14476.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14477.29596875,"end":14478.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14479.253468750001,"end":14481.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14482.442843750003,"end":14483.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14484.434093750002,"end":14485.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14485.649093750002,"end":14486.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14486.712218750003,"end":14488.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14488.551593750002,"end":14489.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14489.648468750001,"end":14490.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14492.01096875,"end":14492.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14493.37784375,"end":14494.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14494.677218750003,"end":14508.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14508.44721875,"end":14513.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14510.489093750002,"end":14510.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14513.796593750001,"end":14514.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14514.82596875,"end":14515.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14515.36596875,"end":14517.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14518.454093750002,"end":14518.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14519.179718750001,"end":14519.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14519.90534375,"end":14541.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14542.14659375,"end":14543.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14544.542843750001,"end":14546.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14547.52971875,"end":14548.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14549.53784375,"end":14550.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14551.259093750003,"end":14554.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14553.570968750002,"end":14553.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14553.65534375,"end":14553.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14554.110968750003,"end":14556.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14560.540343750003,"end":14583.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14561.805968750003,"end":14561.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14561.92409375,"end":14561.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14562.008468750002,"end":14562.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14583.945968750002,"end":14585.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14585.684093750002,"end":14587.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14588.164718750002,"end":14611.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14612.312843750002,"end":14620.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14620.56471875,"end":14623.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14623.332218750002,"end":14629.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14629.390343750001,"end":14637.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14637.456593750001,"end":14640.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14641.017218750003,"end":14651.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14652.036593750003,"end":14662.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14662.75221875,"end":14691.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14692.469093750002,"end":14697.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14696.50221875,"end":14715.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14698.105343750001,"end":14699.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14714.237843750001,"end":14715.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14715.267218750003,"end":14716.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14715.773468750001,"end":14719.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14718.692843750003,"end":14718.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14719.536593750003,"end":14723.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14724.14346875,"end":14728.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14728.480343750001,"end":14730.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14729.290343750003,"end":14731.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14730.454718750003,"end":14734.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14732.800343750001,"end":14732.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14734.335968750001,"end":14735.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14734.656593750002,"end":14736.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14736.090968750003,"end":14742.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14743.515968750002,"end":14744.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14745.13596875,"end":14747.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14748.173468750003,"end":14749.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14750.384093750003,"end":14754.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14754.231593750003,"end":14755.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14756.05409375,"end":14757.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14757.218468750001,"end":14761.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14761.757843750001,"end":14763.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14765.031593750002,"end":14766.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14766.195968750002,"end":14766.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14766.22971875,"end":14777.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14777.65409375,"end":14782.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14782.29471875,"end":14792.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14792.301593750002,"end":14796.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14796.13221875,"end":14803.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14803.82721875,"end":14805.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14805.71721875,"end":14827.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14828.312843750002,"end":14828.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14828.49846875,"end":14828.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14828.802218750003,"end":14829.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14829.39284375,"end":14831.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14832.582218750002,"end":14844.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14840.05784375,"end":14840.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14840.175968750002,"end":14840.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14840.26034375,"end":14840.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14840.36159375,"end":14840.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14845.10346875,"end":14851.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14851.38096875,"end":14851.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14851.836593750002,"end":14852.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14852.207843750002,"end":14852.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14852.69721875,"end":14862.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14852.781593750002,"end":14853.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14862.56909375,"end":14862.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14862.737843750001,"end":14865.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14866.26471875,"end":14868.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14868.610343750002,"end":14874.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14875.02284375,"end":14878.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14879.29221875,"end":14880.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14879.59596875,"end":14882.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14883.207218750002,"end":14883.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14883.224093750003,"end":14886.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14887.864718750003,"end":14894.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14894.564093750003,"end":14904.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14904.267218750003,"end":14906.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14906.477843750003,"end":14908.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14908.60409375,"end":14909.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14909.92034375,"end":14913.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14913.126593750003,"end":14915.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14915.792843750001,"end":14919.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14919.437843750002,"end":14921.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14922.74534375,"end":14923.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14924.399093750002,"end":14925.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14925.563468750002,"end":14926.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14926.255343750003,"end":14934.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14934.91221875,"end":14941.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14942.03346875,"end":14946.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14947.129718750002,"end":14949.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14950.757843750001,"end":14955.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14957.085968750001,"end":14959.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14959.836593750002,"end":14960.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14960.477843750003,"end":14961.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14961.97971875,"end":14964.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14964.51096875,"end":14966.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14966.586593750002,"end":14966.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14967.14346875,"end":14968.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14969.30346875,"end":14971.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14972.560343750003,"end":14973.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14973.94409375,"end":14974.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14975.715968750003,"end":14976.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14978.95596875,"end":14980.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14981.099093750003,"end":14981.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14981.504093750002,"end":14983.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14983.44471875,"end":14985.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14985.53721875,"end":14986.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14986.97159375,"end":14987.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14987.950343750003,"end":14988.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14989.097843750002,"end":14989.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14989.992218750001,"end":14991.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14992.33784375,"end":14992.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14992.82721875,"end":14994.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14995.797218750002,"end":14996.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14996.77596875,"end":14998.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14999.796593750001,"end":15000.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15000.825968750003,"end":15004.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15005.53409375,"end":15008.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15009.769718750002,"end":15021.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15022.40909375,"end":15026.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15027.117218750001,"end":15029.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15030.070343750001,"end":15031.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15031.94346875,"end":15034.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15035.234093750001,"end":15048.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15049.004093750002,"end":15050.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15050.77596875,"end":15053.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15055.062218750001,"end":15056.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15057.94784375,"end":15059.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15059.80409375,"end":15062.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15062.520968750003,"end":15064.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15064.22534375,"end":15064.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15066.520343750002,"end":15069.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15069.895343750002,"end":15071.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15073.320968750002,"end":15075.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15075.98721875,"end":15076.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15076.628468750001,"end":15079.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15079.09221875,"end":15080.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15081.94409375,"end":15083.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15084.222218750001,"end":15085.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15086.297843750002,"end":15094.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15095.49471875,"end":15095.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15096.65909375,"end":15098.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15098.684093750002,"end":15099.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15100.641593750002,"end":15102.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15102.497843750003,"end":15103.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15104.657843750003,"end":15105.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15106.328468750002,"end":15107.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15108.032843750003,"end":15109.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15109.14659375,"end":15111.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15111.72846875,"end":15122.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15122.54534375,"end":15122.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15123.304718750001,"end":15130.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15130.695968750002,"end":15133.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15134.847218750001,"end":15135.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15135.79221875,"end":15137.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15138.171593750001,"end":15139.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15139.94346875,"end":15144.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15144.837218750003,"end":15154.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15155.333468750003,"end":15161.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15162.285968750002,"end":15165.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15166.065968750001,"end":15167.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15167.48346875,"end":15168.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15169.305968750003,"end":15170.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15171.719093750002,"end":15174.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15175.043468750002,"end":15176.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15177.06846875,"end":15178.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15180.730343750001,"end":15181.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15182.02971875,"end":15182.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15183.683468750001,"end":15184.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15184.746593750002,"end":15185.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15185.94471875,"end":15187.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15188.94846875,"end":15190.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15191.125343750002,"end":15192.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15192.930968750003,"end":15195.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15195.37784375,"end":15196.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15196.10346875,"end":15196.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15199.832843750002,"end":15200.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15200.74409375,"end":15201.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15202.17846875,"end":15203.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15204.81096875,"end":15206.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15209.35034375,"end":15219.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15220.84221875,"end":15224.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15224.74034375,"end":15229.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15230.07284375,"end":15233.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15233.17784375,"end":15234.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15234.831593750001,"end":15243.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15243.066593750002,"end":15247.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15247.74096875,"end":15248.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15248.753468750001,"end":15250.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15251.01471875,"end":15252.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15253.47846875,"end":15254.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15254.659718750001,"end":15255.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15255.149093750002,"end":15263.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15264.278468750003,"end":15265.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15266.50596875,"end":15267.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15268.09221875,"end":15269.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15270.235343750002,"end":15271.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15271.703468750002,"end":15273.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15273.84659375,"end":15274.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15274.89284375,"end":15278.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15278.824718750002,"end":15281.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15281.457218750002,"end":15288.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15290.417843750001,"end":15294.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15294.974093750003,"end":15295.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15296.610968750003,"end":15300.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15302.26409375,"end":15303.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15303.37784375,"end":15304.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15305.200343750003,"end":15305.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15306.70221875,"end":15308.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15308.676593750002,"end":15311.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15313.199093750001,"end":15314.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15314.363468750002,"end":15316.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15317.14784375,"end":15317.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15318.09284375,"end":15318.919718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15320.809718750003,"end":15322.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15322.61534375,"end":15322.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15323.52659375,"end":15323.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15324.539093750001,"end":15325.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15326.175968750002,"end":15331.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15337.97159375,"end":15339.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15340.485968750003,"end":15341.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15343.489718750003,"end":15343.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15343.50659375,"end":15344.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15344.637218750002,"end":15344.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15344.654093750003,"end":15433.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15348.36659375,"end":15348.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15433.58534375,"end":15439.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15439.64346875,"end":15448.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15449.17784375,"end":15471.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15471.942218750002,"end":15478.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15477.747218750003,"end":15478.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15478.13534375,"end":15478.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15478.253468750001,"end":15478.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15478.422218750002,"end":15478.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15478.574093750001,"end":15479.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15479.02971875,"end":15479.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15480.29534375,"end":15489.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15481.274093750002,"end":15481.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15481.29096875,"end":15482.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15482.421593750001,"end":15482.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15489.72846875,"end":15489.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15489.981593750003,"end":15490.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15490.015343750001,"end":15490.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15490.032218750002,"end":15490.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15490.082843750002,"end":15490.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15490.52159375,"end":15491.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15491.044718750003,"end":15503.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15503.110343750002,"end":15503.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15503.380343750003,"end":15523.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15523.765343750001,"end":15526.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15526.81971875,"end":15543.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15544.487843750001,"end":15545.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15545.618468750003,"end":15547.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15548.841593750003,"end":15549.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15549.972218750001,"end":15551.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15551.59221875,"end":15556.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15556.722218750001,"end":15557.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15558.055343750002,"end":15572.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15572.73659375,"end":15594.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15573.05721875,"end":15573.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15583.148468750001,"end":15584.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15595.09596875,"end":15600.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15601.47471875,"end":15601.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15601.980968750002,"end":15616.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15610.266593750002,"end":15610.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15610.55346875,"end":15634.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15635.562218750001,"end":15655.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15639.899093750002,"end":15640.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15653.58471875,"end":15653.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15653.601593750001,"end":15653.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15653.669093750003,"end":15653.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15655.761593750001,"end":15658.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15659.035343750002,"end":15665.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15664.87409375,"end":15665.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15665.39721875,"end":15671.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15672.36659375,"end":15676.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15676.399718750003,"end":15679.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15679.52159375,"end":15726.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15719.954093750002,"end":15720.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15720.56159375,"end":15721.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15723.24471875,"end":15723.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15723.278468750003,"end":15723.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15726.012218750002,"end":15726.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15726.04596875,"end":15727.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15726.99096875,"end":15727.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15729.758468750002,"end":15737.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15737.75721875,"end":15749.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15749.77221875,"end":15756.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15756.876593750003,"end":15760.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15760.285343750002,"end":15764.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15764.706593750001,"end":15766.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15766.86659375,"end":15770.089718750001}],"whisperx":[{"start":196.635,"end":196.655,"text":"案。"},{"start":1725.42,"end":1725.883,"text":"府長還沒到耶。"},{"start":1811.306,"end":1813.547,"text":"現在初期委員已足法定人數現在開會"},{"start":1815.663,"end":1825.365,"text":"好請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年5月22日星期三9時至12時53分5月23日星期四9時至13時4分地點群閑樓801會議室出席委員林月琴等15人列席委員顏寬恒等29人列席官員5月22日環境部部長彭啟明"},{"start":1842.808,"end":1853.418,"text":"五月二十三日勞動部部長何佩珊主席黃兆吉委員秀芳五月二十二日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢本日會議由環境部部長報告後委員蘇清泉等21人提出質詢"},{"start":1861.145,"end":1881.246,"text":"軍經環境部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆。委員陳昭芝、邱振鈞及盧憲伊所提書面質詢,列入紀錄刊登公報。決定一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。5月23日,邀請勞動部部長"},{"start":1883.408,"end":1903.861,"text":"列席報告業務概況並被質詢本日會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等24人提出質詢軍警勞動部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆委員楊耀、邱振鈞、牛許廷、李燕秀、羅志強及翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1904.461,"end":1914.343,"text":"二、委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢好請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好沒有的話我們議事錄確定好接下來本次會議程四之一第一案審查"},{"start":1933.083,"end":1957.481,"text":"委員林德福等19人委員楊瓊瓔等16人委員馬文君等25人委員圖全吉等17人委員黃建斌等20人委員呂玉琳等16人委員盧憲一等17人委員鄭振淺等17人分別擬具《就業服務法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":1961.474,"end":1983.212,"text":"事之二第二案審查委員萬美玲等36人委員徐宇珍等18人委員馬文君等20人委員邱若驊等16人分別擬具勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案即四案以上議程採綜合詢答好現在介紹我們在場的委員及列席的官員"},{"start":1993.291,"end":2001.616,"text":"陳昭芝委員林月琴委員盧憲毅委員林德福委員鄭振淺委員徐宇峥委員"},{"start":2019.226,"end":2044.369,"text":"好現在介紹今天出席的我們的官員我們勞動部部長何佩珊勞動力發展署署長蔡孟良職業安全衛生署署長周子蓮勞工保險局局長白立珍"},{"start":2046.96,"end":2049.342,"text":"勞動關係司司長王厚偉勞動保險司司長陳美女勞動福祉退休司司長謝倩倩勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃維琛勞動法務司司長傅惠芝"},{"start":2078.073,"end":2089.219,"text":"衛生福利部長期照顧師師長祝建方護理及健康照護師專門委員曾淑芬社會及家庭署組長游怡君"},{"start":2106.597,"end":2109.618,"text":"國民健康署檢任計政謝佩君內政部移民署移民事務署副署長曹固林國土管理署營建管理署科長曾勝峰經濟部產業發展署主任秘書林德森"},{"start":2134.432,"end":2158.332,"text":"鐘曉吉新創企業署主長黃欣怡經濟部人事處專門委員王煥炎行政院公共工程委員會技術處檢任技政陳奕昌農業部漁業署漁業人力組科長謝慎雄"},{"start":2163.769,"end":2169.392,"text":"原住民族委員會社會福利處副處長董敬芬財政部國庫署公股管理組副處長李信芬行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員廖玉琳國防部人事參謀次長是人事勤務處處長徐永祥"},{"start":2193.82,"end":2197.022,"text":"教育部人事處專門委員陳佩君國民及學權教育署主任古明哲權序部法規司副司長藍夏瑩行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處副處長林妍珍"},{"start":2223.937,"end":2235.069,"text":"現在請提案委員說明提案要址每位委員每按兩分鐘。現在先請我們一號我們林德福委員說明。"},{"start":2247.247,"end":2271.123,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天針對本院的委員包括個人包括楊瓊瓔、馬文君、圖全吉、李玉玲還有鄭振銓包括張家俊、王育敏、王宏威等我想針對就業服務法第四十六條條文的修正草案"},{"start":2272.283,"end":2296.511,"text":"顧足聘外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者之資格條件若年齡超過80歲以上得免經醫療機構之專業評估。我想為什麼本院有這麼多委員同時提出這樣的一個法案主要就是"},{"start":2297.981,"end":2321.352,"text":"因為已經步入高齡化的社會而且我們也看到很多過去為了聘僱這些外籍的康護工但是因為他確實是有那個需要結果最後就是透過仲介仲介就用各種的方式來做處理我認為這個對這些高齡者的家庭來講"},{"start":2327.274,"end":2350.877,"text":"講實在話是另外一種很嚴重的一個負擔那我們希望說透過修法讓這些高齡化社會我們很多長者能夠得到真正他要是需要外籍看護工來照顧的話能夠真正落實來這個彌補我們現在已經不如高齡化社會的一個時代"},{"start":2352.157,"end":2374.529,"text":"因為其實一個長者你要給他拚外籍康復工他不一定會接受為什麼?像我一個丈母娘90歲我說我老丈人走了要不要留他來幫你忙他說不要他留著我自己要全都自己來動動了以後他腦筋不會頓化不一定說你給他聘請他就會要"},{"start":2375.93,"end":2395.998,"text":"獎項獎項"},{"start":2396.138,"end":2398.159,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":2427.861,"end":2431.623,"text":"楊瓊瓔等25人擬具 «就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":2455.182,"end":2471.449,"text":"主席好本席完全同意剛才林德福委員的提案不過巴士量表裡面如果只有80歲以上的話原住民族的話就沒有被滾動式的修正現在的政府很喜歡講滾動式的修正無論是預算無論是所謂的"},{"start":2473.234,"end":2475.215,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":2500.37,"end":2503.054,"text":"好 請鄭正前委員說明"},{"start":2511.908,"end":2525.015,"text":"謝主席針對舊法第四十六條提案發言2018年台灣已經成為高齡社會到今年4月我國高齡人口達到436萬5984人佔18.65%預計明年就會超過20%邁向超高齡的社會其中80歲以上會有91萬2976人這是預計的統計數字"},{"start":2536.841,"end":2563.489,"text":"但因為我國勞動力短缺就是本國籍的看護能量有限而且費用高或者家庭主要照顧者負擔非常的沉重那嚴重影響生活品質那麼對於現行申請看護的門檻巴斯亮表示必須低於對應的標準獲得到醫師團隊的專業評量同意否則即使高齡到百歲也沒有辦法請看護那大部分的醫師的評量都比較嚴格那通過難度很高那麼社會其實對於"},{"start":2565.049,"end":2573.774,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件, 其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件, 其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件, 其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":2588.963,"end":2590.004,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具〈就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2614.938,"end":2632.09,"text":"那產業的部分有產業部分的一個聲音大家在去考量或在考量的時候我覺得這樣子說法其實可接受那對於說因為有刻板印象所以就是說就是去反對這樣一個狀態我覺得也不太妥適因為現在之所以會有這樣子覺得有外勞就會覺得這個"},{"start":2633.491,"end":2633.711,"text":"議員林德福"},{"start":2648.96,"end":2649.26,"text":"萬美玲委員不在"},{"start":2677.793,"end":2678.839,"text":"好請我們徐宇貞委員說明"},{"start":2691.584,"end":2715.491,"text":"謝謝主席本期針對勞動基準法第五十條的條文修正草案提案說明台灣的生育率長期偏低近年來出生的人數也持續低於死亡的人數人口總數從108年達到2360萬人之後就開始下降到去年台灣的生育率已經是全球倒數第一可以說近年來都是生不如死的狀態"},{"start":2716.591,"end":2735.258,"text":"這不僅反映人口結構的挑戰也是對國家未來的發展構成威脅因此本席在這一次的修法提出了為了順應國際的趨勢並真正的保護母嬰的身心的健康我們應該延長我國女性的勞工的產假日數具體來說我修訂勞動基準法第50條將女性的產假由現行的8週延長至12週"},{"start":2745.502,"end":2761.614,"text":"這不僅有助於女性在生育後有充足的時間恢復身心也能更好的照顧心神而減少產後抑鬱的健康問題此外為了配合性別平等工作平等法第15條已經規定未滿三個月流產產假的部分"},{"start":2762.194,"end":2786.311,"text":"故在本法明文規定未滿三個月留產假的工資給付這也體現了對女性在特殊情況下的關懷也能進一步的保障其基本的權益減輕這個經濟的壓力延長產假和明文規定留產假的工資給付將帶來多方面的積極影響首先這將提高女性的就業穩定性和工作的積極性"},{"start":2787.472,"end":2805.591,"text":"檢少因生育或流產而造成的職場歧視其次延長產價有助於新生兒的健康狀況促進母嬰親密的關係為新生兒的健康成長奠定良好的基礎最後這樣的政策調整也能夠提升家庭的生活質量"},{"start":2806.392,"end":2822.4,"text":"促進社會的和諧發展總結來說修正勞動基準法第五十條延長女性產假至十二週並明文規定未滿三個月留產假的公知己夫是保障勞動婦女的權益維護母嬰身心健康的必要措施謝謝接下來我們請璞全級委員說明"},{"start":2842.401,"end":2849.53,"text":"好大家好本席就提出之就業服務法部分條文修正草案進行提案說明"},{"start":2850.319,"end":2877.113,"text":"根據國發會的推估很快明年我們國內老年人口就要超過20%臺灣正式邁入超高齡社會階段超過80歲以上的老人也很快突破百萬人照顧服務需求恐急為現行就業服務法第46條申請外籍家庭看護需要通過巴士量表而民眾苦等巴士量表久矣"},{"start":2878.254,"end":2896.771,"text":"有位身患阿茲海默症的80歲老奶奶申請巴氏量表曠日費時而阿茲海默症當下明明就有不可逆之疾病還要被要求需要三年回到指定醫療場所再次進行鑑定以及重新評估狀況"},{"start":2898.012,"end":2919.813,"text":"此外申請巴士量表也經常成為醫病衝突的導火線民眾因申請巴士量表不成毆打醫護人員等情勢也層出不窮因此本席提案修法放寬年滿80歲之被看護者聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作得免經醫療機構之專業評估"},{"start":2923.076,"end":2940.115,"text":"雖然相關部會及民間團體指出53.1萬沒有失能的80歲以上老人免評估申請外籍看護將使移工淪為家庭幫傭此外本席要指出現代家庭社會"},{"start":2940.936,"end":2960.782,"text":"負擔家計者往往無力照顧家中長者此外本席的選區沿海偏鄉社區照顧醫療資源匱乏八十歲以上的老人在家無人照顧在家萬一跌倒受傷患病都是家庭不可承受之重"},{"start":2961.542,"end":2988.72,"text":"如果我們不在老人跌倒之前為他找到外籍看護難道要等到他跌倒致殘了才符合評估的標準才能找這個外籍看護嗎?請各部會的官員、社會各界有事者互以台北看天下的角度看待本次修法請回到被照顧者的立場來思考請把申請外籍看護的權利還給民眾謝謝"},{"start":2993.363,"end":2995.785,"text":"接下來我們請勞動部何部長就以上兩案並案說明時間10分鐘"},{"start":3008.468,"end":3034.886,"text":"各位委員以及我們在場的記者女士先生朋友就這一個今天委員提出來的修法我們很感謝我們衛華人委員會再度邀請我由我來跟委員們所提出來的修法案來進行一個報告我先前已經有提供了書面的這樣子的一個報告"},{"start":3035.566,"end":3038.287,"text":"那麼我想在這邊再進行一些口頭的補充我們第一個我相當肯定委員們為這一個我們整個長照的這一個包括長者他的這個長照服務然後更一步精進來提出這樣一個修法案那麼我也在這裡要向各位委員報告"},{"start":3061.272,"end":3083.088,"text":"現行在去年10月之後行政院就已經推出了兩個做法第一個就是我們推出了除了巴士量表以外的多元認定方式那麼這個多元認定方式有三個方式第一個是你只要長照服務超過6個月"},{"start":3084.229,"end":3106.869,"text":"第二個你只要是輕度失智症者第三個你是中重度的身心障礙者那麼你都可以不用巴斯量表這個其實很多人現在已經開始這麼採用那麼我跟各位委員報告經過這半年來的實施目前使用多元認定的人數已經高達3.2萬人"},{"start":3108.61,"end":3136.355,"text":"那麼他跟這個巴士量表的服務兩個比起來已經超越了用使用巴士量表來申請的數字了大概是使用巴士量表大概48%那麼使用多元認定方式的有高達52%那麼然後在這52%裡面還有80歲以上的長者他幾乎都是使用多元認定方式高達70%"},{"start":3138.035,"end":3158.613,"text":"所以這個多元認定方式幾乎是已經相當有效的去某種程度我們不敢說全部克服了這個所謂巴士量表這一個申請的問題這樣子不過當然我們還是可以有跟委員再討論可以有更精進的空間那第二個就是說"},{"start":3160.254,"end":3188.03,"text":"在這個多元認定之外還有我們也評估了開始擬定了一個叫做所謂多元照顧陪伴服務施辦方案那這個是什麼東西就是我先前在備選的時候我有提過所謂的移工進入長照體系我精確來講這個是應該是叫做移工進入退化長者的家庭照顧服務那麼我這裡指的退化就是指他不是失能的"},{"start":3188.53,"end":3201.548,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":3206.434,"end":3211.599,"text":"那麼第一個好處就是說他這個是自費市場啦他也不會影響目前我們長照體系的本土就業的問題包括我們照服員就業的問題第二個就是說他是一個彈性化的服務因為有的時候我們健康的長者也不需要說24小時都綁在家裡這樣子的移工可能比如說給他4個鐘頭比如說一個半天或一個白天"},{"start":3231.778,"end":3239.803,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件 及公務員擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件 及公務員擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件 及公務員擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件 及公務員擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件 及公務員擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件 及公務員擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條條文修正草案案件 及公務員擬"},{"start":3249.049,"end":3252.711,"text":"那這是一個針對委員所關切的健康或亞健康的長者的陪伴服務發展出來的一個比較創新的模式那麼也在這裡跟委員報告我們會也非常願意向貴委員會來就這個方案來過做進行更深刻的我們來更詳細的報告這樣子讓委員來更瞭解那以上是目前我們準備的"},{"start":3271.98,"end":3293.127,"text":"因應這一個所謂80歲以上那個免保釋量表的這樣子的一個問題來跟委員所進行的目前現行方案的處理的報告那第二個就是這個關於勞基法的關於李玉琳委員這個55條救福法修正案的問題這個部分是免繳安定費啦那衝擊是會相當大啦"},{"start":3297.048,"end":3303.754,"text":"因為含家庭幫庸跟家庭照顧這個看護工都要免救安費的話那基本上這個數字相當龐大的那可能也會有比較不公平的問題那我們也是請委員會能夠慎思那第三個是勞基法第五十條修正案那麼當然我們也肯定委員們對這一個女性勞工他的這一個產後就的這一個照顧的問題"},{"start":3324.252,"end":3341.863,"text":"不過我要跟委員們報告強調我們跟OECD所有的亞洲國家相比我們幾乎是都已經跟他們一致了所以我們的產價各種產價包括安胎價等等各方面的總和起來我們其實都已經接近這個國際水準"},{"start":3343.504,"end":3361.163,"text":"不過當然而且另外一個要提醒委員注意就是說這是由雇主付費啦那也要考量這種小微企業的承擔能力啦相對的這種小微企業它又是女性就業的大中市場那麼也很怕這樣子會造成對女性隱形的就業歧視障礙所以這一點也要拜託委員會能夠深思以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3370.643,"end":3398.956,"text":"好謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":3405.794,"end":3406.915,"text":"謝謝主席 有請何部長"},{"start":3412.468,"end":3440.474,"text":"部長早有關印度移工MOU的事情我在3月的時候有跟前部長許部長有做過相關的討論當時我認為說我們好不容易有個新的來源國我希望能夠是不是有機會來做G2G就是政府對政府的一個國家國對國的執聘制度那當時許部長是有承諾會做這件事情那我不曉得何部長您對於這件事情您的看法您的態度是如何"},{"start":3441.435,"end":3461.414,"text":"公務員報告,我們在台印的MOU裡面其實是雙軌,一個就是居土居,沒問題,我們會來努力發展,第二個當然還是因為你要考慮現行啦,現行這一個就是來源國,尤其印度本身他願不願意居土居,所以我們還是保留一個仲介的這樣的承接的模式這樣子。"},{"start":3462.415,"end":3473.699,"text":"我麻煩部長看一下我這張投影片的右邊這個目前簽訂的是雙軌制但是仲介制仍然存在我們可以看一下過去十年的雙軌制下執聘不到1%0.28、0.4%簡直就是雙軌制下就是仲介制獨大"},{"start":3482.762,"end":3496.206,"text":"等於就是仲介制那相比其他國家韓國做了很久日本也都開始跟進那現在因為各國的這個爭搶的移工還是存在嘛那這樣的話我們如果這樣來做我們為了開放這個印度勞工我們會有競爭力嗎那您認為職聘您如果預估雙軌制您的職聘的比例會是什麼呢部長"},{"start":3504.69,"end":3519.006,"text":"嗯 就是我要強調第一個當然我們國內的職聘要有檢討的空間啊就像委員們關心的我們職聘中心的那個效率對等等這些我們都應該要更精進不過第二個我就是在強調你要考慮來源國因為這個是相對的問題因為印度平安心講"},{"start":3525.413,"end":3538.241,"text":"他們在這方面他發展沒有比我們更先進所以他的那個職聘我們對他要他願意職聘我們才能職聘是這樣子國對國我是覺得我們還是要積極一點因為未來這個我想臺美貿易協定的那個障礙也是會存在的就想如果能夠做職聘就是第一個當然減少這個這個仲介對於"},{"start":3548.927,"end":3550.148,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具 «就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":3565.336,"end":3590.866,"text":"那我們回到今天的這個主題有關這個巴士量表的這個部分那一定年齡以上這個我們本席就是完全的支持那我們本黨的這個主席在競選總統的時候也有提出這樣的一個政見那我要提的是另外一個狀況剛剛其實有一位委員也提到有很多家庭他家裡是有體力比較衰弱的這個長者他不一定有一個特定的診斷但是這些人他需要照顧"},{"start":3591.826,"end":3605.078,"text":"因為他如果發生一些小意外我們都知道很多老人家都是就是一個小意外譬如受傷跌倒之後後來整個情況是這個每下愈況就是整個這個身體都走下坡了那與其到這樣的狀況其實在這個階段他是需要有人照顧的所謂的預防重於治療"},{"start":3610.623,"end":3631.033,"text":"那不但就是說讓這個不要發生這些小意外那或是造成後來的後遺症那老實說對於後續的這個健保醫療的支出也是有幫助的這個部分部長您的想法如何呢就是希望能夠有家庭幫庸開放給這些有需求的老弱家庭的這個部分"},{"start":3632.062,"end":3647.198,"text":"嗯,就是家庭包容的開放齁,因為他的那個體系喔,跟那個看護工也不太一樣。家庭包容是完全符合家庭裡面的服務啦齁。那他的就業安費也比較高,目前是五千塊啦。那所以他的門檻是比較高的。那"},{"start":3649.58,"end":3656.004,"text":"我剛剛提的齁所謂的這一個對亞健康與健康長子的多元陪伴服務其實就是為了解決這個問題因為其實這樣的話齁他可以這樣對那是自費市場自費市場可是這樣只可以讓他的價格親民啦他價格是會比較親民的啦那因為那比起家庭包容"},{"start":3674.835,"end":3689.478,"text":"其實他所付出的成本 我知道我們現在很多就是在源頭先做預防嘛後續其實那個支出其實有時候是更大的我還是請部長能夠來好好研議這個部分好那謝謝部長我現在現在是不是請這個長照司的司長謝謝部長請回座好請祝司長謝謝"},{"start":3701.267,"end":3722.361,"text":"市長,麻煩你先記一下這張標題,這個刊在《天下》雜誌,列揚下長者想提早回家,卻算違規。長照2.0碼別制的一個防弊的困境。我想先請問,市長你知道現在有遇到就是所謂長照2.0實務上有遇到哪些困境嗎?您有沒有掌握?"},{"start":3724.121,"end":3750.308,"text":"我不曉得,因為看這樣的一個標題我不是那麼清楚,不過我猜測因為我們之前曾經有針對我們長照的日照中心有去規範一個日照中心必須要服務的時段要半日達到4小時那全日達到8小時的這個規定可是事實上那個是在規範這個服務提供單位你的服務不能壓縮到時間很短"},{"start":3752.389,"end":3767.062,"text":"那對於這個家裡面有這個子女要上班的來不及這個回家接長輩就是說等日照中醫有可能縮短服務時間那可能很早早的就把長輩送回家是為了這個我接下來有四種形態的這個困境讓市長 那就市長可以一併再來做一下"},{"start":3773.547,"end":3800.909,"text":"背景是這樣那其實長輩如果提前回家是沒有問題的沒有所謂的違規跟市長報告這是第一個我想我有四種困境讓市長第一個困境就是說這是真實發生的事情就是說無法當下回應被照顧者的需求譬如說有一個這個居婦人他遇過服務的長輩他本來核准的是A07就是說要協助洗澡但是因為天氣冷長輩不想下床那他進行在這個床上這個擦澡"},{"start":3803.211,"end":3808.595,"text":"但是他如果聽從長輩的這個要求的話他會就很兩難因為這個價格不一樣核准的碼別不一樣那他會被祭奠但是長輩如果他不下床其實他也無法勉強他這是就是說我知道當初是為了防避或是方式甚至有些在聯會居福源做更多的事情但是事實上就會遇到這種沒有辦法回應當下的需求"},{"start":3828.251,"end":3829.913,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件中的負責人員並沒有被核准這個項目。」"},{"start":3849.474,"end":3856.621,"text":"那為了修改一個馬別我想市長也了解居服員要通知督導員督導員要通知各管事各管事都很忙的要當下有時間回應那他要在兩個小時內這個服務執行時間如果錯過了那就沒有辦法所以後來這個居服員他就還是說要幫這個案主他們來備餐"},{"start":3869.933,"end":3891.821,"text":"最糟糕的是因為他沒有取得核可證所以第一個他無法申報第二個如果他改他選購其他的項目他等於是偽造文書啦所以修改馬別的行政程序老實說是複雜冗長這是第二種形態的困境讓市長瞭解第三種困境就是說馬別的認定標準不一舉例來說VA13叫陪同外出"},{"start":3892.421,"end":3896.463,"text":"那現在各個縣市各個這個主管就認定不一樣那各層級又有不同的行政裁量權導致第一線的人他完全沒有辦法適從請問市長你覺得什麼叫陪同外出如果我在這邊舉例請問陪同外出是從現在我們在群選樓八樓那是到群選樓一樓呢還是在立法院大門口呢還是要走到對面的這個兒童醫院的這個門口才算呢那對個案來說從家裡到大門口這是一樓中庭呢還是要走到社區大門呢還是要對面巷口"},{"start":3921.396,"end":3949.737,"text":"這個認定這個督導員跟這個各管事他們認定都不一樣這樣對第一線的工作人員真的是無所適從那次我還有第四種困境第四種困境就是軍賜軍實化的這個制度非常的僵硬忽略不同的需求當然當時是為了管理方便或是為了防弊所以用軍賜軍實也就是每週平均是用平均時間來分配但是我要告訴司長第一個個案剛出院的時候是非常的黃金期"},{"start":3950.577,"end":3971.686,"text":"從初月的時候那個時候需要密集的照顧因為才能夠好好的就恢復但是在目前的制度下他是不允許後面的這個額度他必須平均的分攤在每一週但事實上他在前幾週可能最需要的就是照顧這是第一種狀況那第二個家務的服務是規定半小時或一小時但是很多案主家庭他們其實很髒亂"},{"start":3973.527,"end":3997.322,"text":"然後甚至有義臭味等等我想很多人都了解那如果可以一開始先用團體的人數就是說先把這個居家環境做一個改善那我想不論是對這個長者本身他感覺被關懷被尊重然後覺得舒適對後來的居扶員他其實也有比較理想的這個工作環境也不用說讓大家都在一個老實說甚至有尿砂味的環境工作這樣也比較友善"},{"start":3999.343,"end":4017.989,"text":"那再回到剛剛我看的第一張那個地方就是說阿嬤外出啦那長照2.0的陪伴項目是以30分鐘為單位但是那天是很熱的所以天下雜誌照了那張照片阿嬤不到30分鐘想回家那照專呢就是照顧管理專員他說時間沒到啊他懷疑這個居服員想要偷懶啊所以現在怎麼辦呢所以市長我剛剛提出了四種困境那是不是能夠市長就簡單的回應一下謝謝"},{"start":4027.912,"end":4049.703,"text":"好 謝謝委員提出了我們長照第一線確實有一些狀況不是制度使然而有可能是因為相關的一些人為的關係那我在這邊也特別說明像你覺得第一種案例這種樣態本來核定是屬於要要沐浴要到浴室去沐浴後來改成用插藻"},{"start":4050.123,"end":4069.781,"text":"那這個部分本來就是在A個管他在跟案家討論的時候其實也要因應個案的一個需求他核定的時候不應該完全只核定到浴室洗澡這個碼別那事實上只要在一剛開始照顧計畫在核定的時候把這些可能考量到需要的碼別都能夠考量進去的話就不會有發生剛剛您提到的這個問題"},{"start":4074.665,"end":4083.169,"text":"對包括說沒有核定備餐所以家裡突然發生需要備餐就不被允許這個都是剛剛提的在這一樣態裡面所以在照顧計劃擬定的過程其實案家要充分的把他們家的一個狀況一定要說出來"},{"start":4091.112,"end":4116.349,"text":"那A個館才有辦法跟案家討論到底哪些碼別是你有可能會用到的那剛剛前面提到有一些樣態比如說他真的後來他就是沒有核定然後他只是在床上擦澡那申報的時候他就不能申報沐浴服務他申報擦澡是沒有問題的也不會被記點那個是一個狀況是是是所以這個概念上大概就是服務提供單位也必須了解"},{"start":4117.41,"end":4130.273,"text":"他沒有做這件事情是不能申報,否則會被記點。謝謝市長,不過我還在提醒這個碼別的更動要四個層級,那大家認定不一,這還是很大的問題,請市長回去看怎麼整理一下。好,謝謝。好,謝謝陳昭志委員。接下來我們請林月琴委員發言。"},{"start":4145.033,"end":4147.536,"text":"麻煩請我們的何部長。請何部長。因為我來自兒少團體,在過往的服務經驗裡邊,如果有照顧需求的話,這樣對家庭造成非常大的壓力,然後也是比較是年輕人對於他在支應家庭的時候是一大負擔。"},{"start":4167.335,"end":4188.926,"text":"那可是現在是全球缺工的狀況都在搶工那大家直接比較衝擊的是移工來台的人數本來就否則不會再去跟印度簽那個MOU所以國內的產業一直都是要求僱主要放寬我們的聘僱的標準那家庭看護工的需求也是這樣不過在這種現實底下"},{"start":4189.537,"end":4215.515,"text":"我們國內的移工的政策常涉及到你如果要放寬資格的話真的要格外的小心為什麼因為避免會擠壓到更多更需要移工的產業跟家庭所以就想問部長因為重度需求家庭也一直在來拜會本席這邊一直在申訴說他們對於移工比較喜歡去照顧輕度有自主能力的人所以就會一直沒有辦法"},{"start":4216.428,"end":4231.582,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條"},{"start":4242.319,"end":4247.485,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會議及其中一項委員會議及其中一項委員會議及其中一項"},{"start":4262.603,"end":4277.423,"text":"目前用一個所謂80歲就來放的話,而不做任何的這樣子的一個區別的話,他確實很可能會造成重度失能者被排擠,然後當然就是轉到輕度失能這邊子比較好顧嘛,比較好賺這樣子。"},{"start":4279.75,"end":4294.017,"text":"所以我剛剛才強調我們現在的做法是希望能夠把它進行一個區別化就剛剛一塊是用多元認定另外一塊是用陪伴照顧服務然後希望這兩邊都能夠更精進這樣子那多元認定的方式當然貴委員會所提出來的修正動議不 提出來的修正案我們也都很重視是 因為為什麼因為80歲以上像去看資料"},{"start":4305.303,"end":4308.124,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件 及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件"},{"start":4326.203,"end":4352.501,"text":"他本來事實上是獨立性很強可是相對的這樣子照顧會不會造成依賴跟獨立性被剝奪甚至從數據來看80歲以上的老人68%也是自認健康甚至80歲以上的老人那無衰弱的大概34.25%那輕度衰弱的35.33%那表示大概有70%所以對健康的老人除了陪伴之外不需要移工照顧"},{"start":4353.73,"end":4367.536,"text":"會不會是造成只派去做額外的工作就像我婆婆的看護工來之前她事實上是在被聘用的時候她是在小吃店為什麼她基本上事實上是說被"},{"start":4368.37,"end":4370.251,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件"},{"start":4384.497,"end":4384.977,"text":"議員林德福"},{"start":4416.007,"end":4426.101,"text":"當然這個所謂的假看護然後真的打工這確實在民間是有耳聞可是這個覺得是違法的因為我說連我婆婆的耳"},{"start":4429.446,"end":4446.665,"text":"那個外傭他在他之前的工作就是……是,這是違法的。我要明確指出這是違法的。當然去年我們常獲得23件。對。算很低耶。可是你看報紙上寫的都還算是……它常常可能是合併性的。"},{"start":4447.581,"end":4462.854,"text":"所以他又有照顧 也要聲帶一提啦齁因為目前所有的移工類別當中只有家庭看護工跟幫傭不適用勞基法齁那而勞動部一直也沒有針對我們的移工跟僱主落落相殘的問題提出解方齁"},{"start":4463.581,"end":4490.995,"text":"那所以民間團體他們的表示也是說家庭看護工開放的門檻越放寬好像對於移工越不利那勞動部你對這個質疑你怎麼回應是就是因為這樣所以我們比較謹慎那麼我剛剛提的這個移工這個進入這個家庭照顧服務多元陪伴施辦方案其實就是為了這個就是因為我們希望能夠發展一個"},{"start":4494.137,"end":4518.937,"text":"並不是完全的政府聘僱啦,而是由NGO監管下的。至少他就會有勞保對不對?對,然後他由仲介來聘,然後仲介來派。事實上僱主是仲介啦,不是那個案家。這樣案家也比較輕鬆,不必負僱主責任。然後他也可以給這個移工勞基法跟勞保的保障這樣,而有彈性化的服務,甚至一對多的服務這樣子。"},{"start":4519.537,"end":4547.298,"text":"好 謝謝部長接下來是不是請我們的長照師的助師長目前我們去年10月13號我們開始用CNS在做評估所以請問一下目前長照照專的人力只有2000多位相當吃緊可是這個問題關係到長照人力是否會遭到新制度的排擠所以請衛福部"},{"start":4548.14,"end":4549.1,"text":"aigns."},{"start":4549.1,"end":4568.749,"text":"使用長照服務六個月以後,我們的聘僱移工是否需要重新做CNS評估?這一直搭,連我民間團體都不太清楚這種狀況,因為2000個照專,那目前有400萬的老人,所以想問一下,目前是不是還要去做重新做評估,如果使用到六個月以後?"},{"start":4571.249,"end":4599.034,"text":"使用6個月以後就是他本來就已經在長照體系的服務對象所以他的CMS的等級這個資料是清楚的那我們目前的CMS的評估基本上是一年負評一次所以要申請如果要走這個多元評估免評的這一塊他基本上是只要把他的那個相關有服務紀錄因為連續要6個月使用照顧服務類的服務那我再問一個就是說"},{"start":4599.494,"end":4624.814,"text":"家庭看護工聘僱方式一直都有調整一定會牽動到長照所以除了人力資源的排擠甚至對於長照的使用量也會造成影響所以現在長照的需求等級是二到八級新制度是不是會腐爛到無論需求等級只要使用長照服務達六個月以上就可以銜接移工的聘僱"},{"start":4625.92,"end":4650.492,"text":"我們去年推出跟勞動部一起合作推出了多元免貧那個概念是長照服務他必須要使用所謂的B碼照顧服務類的那這個部分持續六個月每個月都有用這樣才可以符合多元免貧的機制長照服務事實上是國家提供的應對政策也要針對於我們因為高齡化的來臨"},{"start":4651.432,"end":4664.538,"text":"可是現在如果提80歲以上都去聘僱所謂的移工對於我們長照會不會影響崩盤接下使用量就反而會變低了?你的評估是什麼?"},{"start":4666.592,"end":4691.412,"text":"這塊確實我們在我們今天的書面報告其實有提到如果以80歲以上我們目前國家是91萬多人那我們手上確實有掌握他是屬於失能的這部分目前只佔41%所以換句話說大概53萬多人其實並不進入到我們所謂的失能的這樣的一個領域裡面那所以他基本是生活可以治理的"},{"start":4692.073,"end":4719.346,"text":"那剛剛也不同的委員都有提到就是說其實我們我們即使是這個我們國家或者是世界的這些相關的國家都強調的是希望要長輩能夠減少依賴能夠訓練自我照顧那我們其實也擔心我們國人過往引進移工有時候會變成就是比較茶來伸手飯來張口那其實有可能靠著這樣的依賴"},{"start":4720.046,"end":4748.34,"text":"所以也擔心說這樣子的能力會退化得更快所以我們的想法還是期待是說如果真的是用家庭看護工這個名義要引進的還是要否這個真的有照顧需求的大概是我們的想法是這樣好 謝謝市長所以本席提出來希望能夠事實上是85歲以上而且是獨居無家人者那這個事實上是我們問民間團體尤其是老人福利團體們他們認為"},{"start":4750.394,"end":4771.015,"text":"這個可能是在照顧上的一個破口。是不是有這個85歲以上有限定獨居家人者來作為一個聘僱的需求。以上謝謝。接下來我們請邱振鈞委員質詢。"},{"start":4779.813,"end":4805.25,"text":"主席好,我們還是要請我們的何部長好,請何部長委員好部長你好今天進入這個主題之前我想請教您您說勞保其實沒有危機只有政府處理不當才會產生危機那您的意思是要怎麼樣是用撥補到不會破產"},{"start":4806.926,"end":4831.8,"text":"才用這種方式就是沒有危機是嗎我是指的就是說我有解釋過這個撥補它本身就是一個改革啦就是改革的一環那麼因為這個撥補它本身就是所謂我們過去在勞保條例在2017年的時候我們曾經勞保條例修正案進來立院雖然沒有被三讀通甚至連一讀都沒有"},{"start":4832.94,"end":4860.235,"text":"對那可是裡面有一條政府付最終支付責任入法這是一個國家負擔最終的勞保支付責任就是撥補就是他的實踐所以他就是改革部長現在就是說上台之後您的責任就是撥補讓他不破產就是您的目的這是我的任務之一任務嘛所以在也就是說在我們賴清德總統任內不會引爆推到下面去就算了就過了"},{"start":4861.435,"end":4880.308,"text":"我說把這個責任往後推就對了嗎?是吧?我們任內一定竭盡所能的來讓勞保財務穩定。因為我看到啦,就是說我們每年這樣撥補1200億根本就是杯水車薪。我們勞保財務精算的報告在"},{"start":4881.409,"end":4897.026,"text":"勞保將在2028年破產,2039年以後將達到給付的高峰,那每年超過一兆,並且連續30年,所以你每年撥一千兩百億根本就是不夠的,那部長這邊有沒有什麼好的辦法呢?"},{"start":4897.745,"end":4916.194,"text":"跟委員報告其實每年撥補一千兩百億在我們的評估裡面是相當足夠喔因為喔就是我要跟您報告整個撥補的歷史從2020年開始本來只有兩百億在很多委員的提案在我們當年勞保年改條例的修正所以你是從幾年開始撥的?"},{"start":4917.154,"end":4921.998,"text":"2020我們從到去年高達1200億馬英九任內他的負債是7.3兆那蔡英文政府執政了8年現在負債13兆也就是說你從2020年開始補這4年來他的負債並沒有減少還是持續的成長不是嗎?"},{"start":4939.724,"end":4957.62,"text":"那是...委員其實那個負債...我們現在用數字說話嘛,好不好?是是是是...委員我們是看政府的實際作為啦我指的就是說在...當然我們2013年嘛政府時代他並沒有拿出撥補的行為啦而2020年我們有拿出來啦"},{"start":4961.263,"end":4990.607,"text":"我的意思當時是指的就是說當然這個政府處理的態度不一樣會導致勞工的信心不一樣我有看到你的幾個方式就是說您說勞保多元的改革包括延後的退休增加中高齡的就業讓家庭看護工納保等等這些都是您的想法嘛是吧那只是開源的方式而已那你有預計過這些能夠增加多少人多少的收入嗎讓多少人用納保"},{"start":4991.83,"end":5002.69,"text":"委員,這些開源的方式目前都還在評估中。好,那你評估要多久?目前我盡量來評估,好嗎?那一個禮拜可以給我嗎?"},{"start":5006.221,"end":5007.843,"text":"老闆現在的水位是創新高,真的不要擔心,沒有那麼嚴重。"},{"start":5029.102,"end":5055.309,"text":"我們在想這個我們就業服務法第46條修正案那11個排審案中也有兩件共同提案的四個連署案本系列主張在46條中應定增訂80歲以上長者或70至79歲患有癌症第二期以上的僱主聘僱外籍外國的看護工免得醫療機構的得免經過醫療機構的評估就是免八十兩表的意思"},{"start":5057.145,"end":5080.221,"text":"部長剛剛我有聽到林委員在講就是說你們怕因為他80歲以後如果免80量表會排擠到我們移工的這個醫院是嗎?剛剛林委員的意思是說會排擠重度失能者就是說因為移工也會選他就是說選比較好照顧的人他的意思是這樣子對"},{"start":5081.582,"end":5107.334,"text":"但是我個人這樣講就是當初提到這個案子的時候我發現這個我們台灣的老百姓幾乎都是非常贊成的我要講的一個重點就是說我們台灣現在是少子化的社會雖然他的長輩他因為可能他可能還是可以照顧自己但是可能因為他就一個人在家那小孩子呢他要為了工作到出外那誰照顧他"},{"start":5108.294,"end":5127.726,"text":"對不對?誰照顧他?所以這個部分我當然認為說你要讓年輕人好好的在外面打拼那老人家我們政府有責任把他照顧好這是我們的初衷啦這是我們的初衷所以部長你怎麼看這樣的事情?對,委員我開頭就講了我還是非常肯定委員們這一次的提案"},{"start":5128.607,"end":5136.434,"text":"這真的是苦民所苦的精神所以我們也在委員的這樣的指示底下所以我就是強調說我們盡量來做那麼我們也發展出兩種模式一個就多元認定免貧另外一個就是移工來進入這個家庭照顧服務這樣的兩種方式來處理"},{"start":5153.389,"end":5171.695,"text":"對阿因為我看你們的如果說像你們評估老人家可能就是下肢衰弱的狀況然後比較可能自己可以照顧自己但是呢他又還沒有達到申請外勞的那個標準那我們現在因為我們講說80歲以上為什麼我會這樣講呢如果我們現在不讓他就是還沒有達到申請外勞看護那個等級的時候"},{"start":5181.998,"end":5198.407,"text":"那會造成說他就要請這個陪伴嘛 對不對家庭幫庸這種狀況就是一般的陪伴需求用這種方式嘛但是80歲以上你認為80歲以上我們的幫庸的我們是用點數申請的嗎點數你是講家庭幫庸吧對那是點數但是你80歲以上就有16點嗎"},{"start":5208.403,"end":5230.426,"text":"沒有,好像我記得只有6個人,所以他根本就沒辦法請。我想部長是不是可以針對這個部分,如果你們認為說這個免巴士量表這邊有困難還是怎麼樣,是不是可以大家來做一個平衡,然後調整,解決我們現在真的需要的人,真的他真的是非常需要,不要因為這樣的一個政策,"},{"start":5231.087,"end":5255.418,"text":"打到他們因為你如果讓他去請一般的家庭幫傭就是臺灣的看護我記得一天是2800塊那時候我有調查過2800塊一個月就要七八萬塊一般人根本是受不了的那他只好年輕的只好乾脆放棄工作來照顧老人家那這樣對我們整個社會是真的是沒有幫助好不好好希望部長針對這個事情大家都用心一點幫我們的年輕人這個減輕他們的負擔好不好謝謝"},{"start":5263.766,"end":5270.051,"text":"委員謝謝邱正晶委員的發言接下來我們請我們召委王育明委員謝謝主席我們是不是有請何部長有請部長委員好部長好部長今天本席安排"},{"start":5291.618,"end":5305.842,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 議員楊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 議員楊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案 議員楊瓔等26人擬"},{"start":5318.971,"end":5339.94,"text":"都有提出自己的政見跟看法。包括賴清德總統,他說:「臺灣社會的確有照顧服務的需求,巴士量表已經產生問題,到了不得不改的情況。」這句話,何部長,你之前有接收到這樣的訊息嗎?"},{"start":5342.535,"end":5368.096,"text":"是我想當時確實那總統他曾經非常重視這個問題沒有錯對那當選之後應該更重視吧當然當然他現在握有權力了那過去巴士量表所引發這一些不必要的爭議甚至讓這個醫師遭受到暴力攻擊我覺得這些家屬應該也不是蓄意的但是是在情急之下"},{"start":5368.7,"end":5370.721,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一項委員會議及其中一項委員會議及其中一項委員會議及其中一項委員會議及其中一項"},{"start":5398.962,"end":5401.963,"text":"而這樣的一個當時由侯友宜總統候選人所提出來的政見其實真的是廣闊好評在基省裡面很多民眾"},{"start":5425.017,"end":5432.856,"text":"是非常支持的那這個就代表說這樣的需求其實是非常的迫切所以我們才排了這樣的一個議案"},{"start":5433.683,"end":5459.762,"text":"那這個我請問部長你是贊成還是是反對?委員我非常肯定你們提案的這樣子的一個精神這我這完全當然是肯定的那只是當然我就是剛剛跟你們跟貴會有報告過就是所以在去年之後馬上就發展出兩個模式一個就是多元認定另外一個就移工"},{"start":5460.982,"end":5482.51,"text":"進入這個家庭照顧的這樣子的一個示範方案。那麼我們希望當然今天委員的提案也可以讓我們有更精進的思考啦。那我們如何一起看是不是能夠在您的提案的這樣子的一個能夠去照顧去能夠支持您的提案然後也也能夠這個兼顧不過你還是不容諱言啦因為他會衝擊到整個長照體系"},{"start":5489.812,"end":5512.542,"text":"因為然後還有包括就現行的這樣的一個管制讓一個私能或非私能的這樣的一個認定界限他會是一個還是一個衝擊因為你把用80歲去放他裡面私能跟非私能的人他這個不容易區分幾乎是那你私能的優先不行嗎所以說他現在只是廢除80兩表這個提案"},{"start":5519.281,"end":5535.843,"text":"的精神是廢除八十兩票,但回到申請需求的時候,如果你的外籍看護工有限的話,他可以有優先順序啊,從重度到這個輕度,到他有一般這個他只是滿八十歲,他的健康狀況可能還好的,"},{"start":5538.345,"end":5544.289,"text":"當你來源是不夠的時候,你政策上你可以去調整這個重點。這個議案並沒有要處理你那個優先選舉的問題,它只是讓80歲以上不要再舟車勞頓,不用再讓那麼老的老人家還要奔波醫院,只是為了取得這樣的一個證明。所以我覺得有時候是不能混為一談,包括其實你提到的你的多元方式我也很贊成。"},{"start":5561.8,"end":5567.047,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一�"},{"start":5575.306,"end":5592.094,"text":"也是有這樣子的人所以當你去採取一個放寬的時候不代表會嚴重衝擊到你的長照體系我覺得不是這樣子混為一談在政府的政策工具上面你還是可以去設計我瞭解當然我們多元認定的方式是不是能夠再更精進"},{"start":5592.814,"end":5611.796,"text":"是啊 是是是 這個我想我們可以一起來討論好不好對啊 你既然可以多元認定 那取消80歲以上的巴士量表 這也不是什麼問題啊這是符合你多元認定上的精神不是嗎 你多元認定不是就是不要用唯一的標準來看嗎其實巴士量表是一個醫學認定的標準啊 我們也必須跟衛福部一起討論"},{"start":5612.857,"end":5623.067,"text":"是 那就趕快討論吧因為禮拜三我們會就進入主條就是要來討論這樣的一個議案我覺得有時候我們的政策也要與時俱進"},{"start":5624.295,"end":5643.121,"text":"就是要去考量到真正的需求那這個不只是對於80歲以上老人我們就是免這個巴士量表的評估就不用讓他週車勞頓再跑到醫院去那一方面其實讓家裡的這些照顧者特別是年輕人知道說如果當他家裡"},{"start":5643.961,"end":5645.162,"text":"關於這些年輕人來講,他得到了一線升級。"},{"start":5665.051,"end":5690.192,"text":"有的人不用辭職只是為了照顧家裡的老人因為他會擔心那他可以有一個選擇是我可以花錢去請外籍看護工讓他的爸爸媽媽可以得到一個比較好的照顧他上班的時候可以比較安心我覺得這個為什麼是80歲以上因為現行的我們的平均餘命你知道男生是多少嗎男性不到80歲79的樣子"},{"start":5693.342,"end":5703.028,"text":"大概是77.7欸女性才是84.3所以你說這個是一個很寬鬆的標準嗎?不是喔其實很多的男性"},{"start":5703.683,"end":5730.964,"text":"平均餘命在不到80歲的他其實也使用不到這個政策所以我認為這樣的一個政策我真的希望這個新政府剛上任正當好好思考你的思考角度你必須是多元的你必須從這個一般民眾他現在生活當中的壓力跟痛苦來思考然後讓他們有一個機會可以來做這件事好不好那另外一個除了這個女性"},{"start":5733.24,"end":5762.569,"text":"的這個產價的問題我們來看一下女性產價的問題坦白講我擔任立委到現在很多委員一提再提都沒有辦法突破但是我們看看為什麼我們鄰近的國家日本南韓中國大陸甚至印度印尼他們都可以做到這樣子但是我們就是產價要延長"},{"start":5764.369,"end":5772.581,"text":"這件事情其實已經提了很久那勞動部也一直是反對可不可以講反對真正的理由是什麼"},{"start":5773.513,"end":5796.062,"text":"公主反對就是怕對女性在就就是這個產後女性齁就業其實會有隱性的歧視啦其實真的就怕這個啦那我要跟委員報告我們那個產價當然現在目前表面看是8週嘛可是包括安胎價包括產檢價合併起來有心部分喔這個部分合併就已經都15週了"},{"start":5798.243,"end":5817.43,"text":"對,所以導動部是覺得已經太多了嗎?不是太多,是絕對不輸這個其他啞鈴國家啦。所以你們還是很堅持?不能改?我們就要謹慎評估,我們願意來評估好不好?我們願意來評估。好啊,我覺得本席擔任第八屆立委的時候,"},{"start":5818.27,"end":5819.33,"text":"王一鳴委員的發言"},{"start":5850.404,"end":5850.584,"text":"盧憲伊委員"},{"start":5862.455,"end":5862.735,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5883.635,"end":5903.229,"text":"大概是200塊日本大概是210塊我是希望說有沒有一個機制可以比照軍公教如果是逐年調的話是不是有這個機會您講的是時薪嗎?當然我們基本工資已經調8年了那今年最低工資元年對183塊嘛"},{"start":5905.811,"end":5920.883,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會"},{"start":5929.79,"end":5938.693,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事"},{"start":5957.398,"end":5962.52,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件及其中一項擬具:「"},{"start":5982.416,"end":5999.55,"text":"對 我也完全這個非常敬佩你們提案的精神那您剛剛講的那個週車勞頓其實這個我們也透過各種行政措施來改良比如現在其實已經發展到居家醫療可以到家裡到宅評估"},{"start":6002.412,"end":6018.737,"text":"那第二個我們準備...我想知道現在的申請比例,成功的居家醫療嗎?這恐怕...我是覺得他的困難度還是很高所以我是希望能夠減變當然是如果是居家醫療的醫生可以開也OK可是你要廣為推行還有包括說像未來可不可能"},{"start":6024.119,"end":6039.422,"text":"我們就到鄰居的社區診所讓他開我覺得可能用這種行政措施的改良會比我們用整個大地區的衛生所如果可以開就好了"},{"start":6039.622,"end":6039.642,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":6056.875,"end":6080.514,"text":"限制嘛。比如說我們現在是爭取重度、中度而已。那輕度跟陪伴的話就給我們國人的看護工。這樣會不會就可以避免他們的一個逃跑。比如說我怎麼說呢?如果現在的他們的薪資是兩萬多塊。那如果現在按照一般薪資是一百八十三塊。如果這樣算的話,他們應該要拿十三萬的。對啊。那如果說你可以把它"},{"start":6080.919,"end":6092.891,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十"},{"start":6103.106,"end":6121.722,"text":"因為我常常看到逃跑率很高的是怎麼樣?因為我在訪寮地區服務,有的時候一個移工來,他連一句國語都不會聽,更何況是台語。來了以後,他到了那個家裡才發現他要照顧兩個人,就是照顧一個比較輕度做輪椅的阿公,然後臥床的阿嬤。"},{"start":6122.534,"end":6122.734,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具"},{"start":6140.163,"end":6154.934,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一項委員會計劃及其中一�"},{"start":6165.86,"end":6180.536,"text":"因此這樣開會排擠重度失能者的被照顧的需求你知道照顧民營住民的外籍移工的逃跑率很低嗎?我幾乎沒有看過逃跑的移工"},{"start":6181.237,"end":6181.797,"text":"請問委員您覺得這個原因是什麼?"},{"start":6211.637,"end":6223.726,"text":"我認為如果就這個方面來講,你們也可以去研究為什麼在照顧原住民的移工他們就比較不容易逃跑。可以把它引用在我們照顧一般家庭這樣好不好?最後我要請園民會。"},{"start":6241.63,"end":6266.423,"text":"護士長,我想問的就是說我們那個草案有跟我反映就是說他們要去職業訓練比如說大客車駕駛或者是大貨車駕駛的時候沒有班別,那如果有班別的時候會覺得說很像那個他會考量叫做什麼媒合的就業率來審核是不是?你大概可以說明一下嗎?"},{"start":6268.375,"end":6282.486,"text":"我們每年的那個職業訓練的班別都會在我們的網站上公告。然後如果我們族人有需要的話就可以來報名。我知道他的經費來源是哪裡。"},{"start":6283.947,"end":6300.134,"text":"我們的經衛來源有的是從我們的公益彩券回饋金那為什麼不是從勞動部勞動部也有我們也有跟勞動部合作就是說相關的他們說常常是因為他們被評比的時候不及格所以會被扣錢"},{"start":6302.819,"end":6325.666,"text":"老公部的部分嗎?那這個部分我們再了解一下。那我們本身也是都有開。我說承載單位可能因為他的每合的一個就業的機率,如果說沒有到達一定的百分比的話,他會把他原本應該給的那個費用是會打折扣的,是有這個情形?對,就是如果說我們本來是補助40萬,然後他整個人數啊,"},{"start":6327.987,"end":6328.448,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":6352.312,"end":6377.788,"text":"好等一下林淑芬委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請圖全級委員發言好謝謝主席那先請我們長照司司長好不好好請祝司長"},{"start":6386.482,"end":6412.568,"text":"委員好 市長 因為今天也是剛好討論我們《就業服務法第四十六條條款》那有剛好我們長照師 市長也在這邊我請問一下 那我們因為為了強化我們長照的業務我們有針對長期照顧服務人員繼續教育課程統計 也是你們俗稱的長照小卡"},{"start":6413.368,"end":6438.833,"text":"那這個長照小卡在106年我們有公佈長照服務人員訓練認證繼續教育及登錄辦法那他這個長照小卡你們有規定6年要更新一次然後6年內要完成120個積分對不對是那長照小卡的更新請問他包括我們長期照顧機構內的外籍照護人員嗎"},{"start":6441.432,"end":6464.261,"text":"當然包括包括嘛那我這邊有一個資料來顯示根據我們衛福部長照師機構外及照護人員他們長照小卡的更新率因為有很多機構來跟我們反映就是到今年的6月30號我們看一下到今年的6月30號我們"},{"start":6466.582,"end":6486.35,"text":"更新認證率這個人數到今年六月底大概只有40個人大概是11%多那可是未完成的有88%有307人然後再到今年年底如果今年年底到期的有25個人更新認證有2433人"},{"start":6491.952,"end":6507.25,"text":"沒有更新認證那如果以我們這樣子來看喔那整個認證更新率不到3%那我想了解一下那如果這些他沒有更新的話到時候會面臨什麼樣的問題"},{"start":6509.052,"end":6523.378,"text":"跟委員報告其實本來在機構裡面的外籍看護這邊的長照人依法它其實是要每年20小時那這個也是延續之前老人福利法的一個規範一路下來的"},{"start":6525.359,"end":6547.889,"text":"那依據常服法這邊一樣延續就是每年20小時可是因為過去的109年的COVID的關係所以我們也知道說機構裡面的這些外籍這個照顧的人力每年20小時對他們來講因為COVID的關係所以他沒有辦法完成所以其實我們是在110年有在跟這些機構的業者這邊討論"},{"start":6549.89,"end":6574.885,"text":"那特別放寬放寬到今年年底之前等於是去年年底之前112年年底之前我們可以讓他6年比照其他的長照人員6年120那現在最主要就是我們現在面臨到這個問題我們看一下你到今年年底你看目前都不到3%那如果到真的年底有這麼多人2000多人"},{"start":6577.066,"end":6588.629,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":6598.172,"end":6599.893,"text":"那現階段我們其實在委員之前有協商的會議的時候其實我們也是已經請這個就像我們過往希望他們來辦課的他們目前一直沒有辦所以我們現在會處理讓他們"},{"start":6614.02,"end":6616.202,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6642.74,"end":6660.451,"text":"而且他好像也是不能去做一些其他工作外,像幫佣、掃廁所等等的事情。對,因為這個是依據就是就業服務法第四十六條進來,就是要做依舊的財務。對,所以我們現在就擔心,那如果照這樣子的情況,他如果碰到惡質的僱主,"},{"start":6661.852,"end":6689.44,"text":"那一定想辦法去終止他的契約那我們擔心就會有逃逸移工的問題發生因為像這逃逸移工問題真的非常嚴重那當然如果有良心的僱主繼續用他但是他並沒有經過這個認證他就不能做真的專業長照的服務那就變成閒置的人力他只能去折折棉被整理一些床周邊的事物那變成我們僱主的成本就上升那"},{"start":6690.521,"end":6699.671,"text":"我想說這一部分可能會面臨到很嚴重的問題。不知道我們針對我們這一部分衛福部有沒有什麼解決的方法。"},{"start":6700.627,"end":6705.572,"text":"就是跟委員說明從上次的那個協調會之後其實我們已經請這些那個聯合會和機構的這些聯合會這邊來出面來做辦訓的動作那目前規劃出來大概會優先培訓400名這個機構裡面的這個分數積分不夠的這個對象"},{"start":6721.946,"end":6746.934,"text":"那針對這個其實也有很多的機構有跟我們反映他們面臨這個問題其實他們也很恐慌啦然後他們也提出有反映澄清幾個狀況就是說我們這個線下的課程數量不足那針對這部分我們去了解其實衛福部對於這線下課程的實際的數量也並沒有完全在掌握而且這些外籍的造福員他要外出上課"},{"start":6748.034,"end":6751.957,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具 «就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6770.087,"end":6786.098,"text":"這個多國語言這個設計沒有去做到我們看得到勞動部都有做到為什麼衛福部做不到那難怪他這個語言障礙讓他要考試而且考試還用中文去考他要怎麼去得通過這個認證是不是造成很多很多的問題"},{"start":6787.538,"end":6809.597,"text":"各位委員說明是勞動部的那個多國語言的課程事實上我們也整個真的勞動部同意已經把那個課程都放在我們的長照2.0的數位學習平台上所以基本上是都有的多國語言都有那至於我們目前其實跟這些這個服務提供單位這邊的合作就是請他們辦直播視訊那直播視訊是等同實體課程"},{"start":6812.399,"end":6826.795,"text":"好 我這邊就是幾點建議啦也希望趕快我們衛福部這邊看趕快怎麼去解決我們現在面臨我是說長照小卡是不是有機會再給它更新延期還有我們這個課程應該優化線上課程"},{"start":6829.358,"end":6840.312,"text":"讓他多國語言還有也希望他們有建議是不是這個線下的課程能夠建構導師團的制度納入通譯專責師之人力然後在這個機構巡迴上課也希望"},{"start":6844.858,"end":6867.41,"text":"我們衛福部針對這幾個部分來研議看看因為我們擔心馬上到這個問題我們現在真的是最擔心逃逸外勞到時候他沒有通過這個認證又不能在機構好好的工作我們擔心逃逸外勞的數量會直線上升所以針對這部分希望我們衛福部針對這部分來好好的研究改善一下"},{"start":6868.166,"end":6891.533,"text":"好 那個優化課程我們會來努力 那延長 因為已經延過一年了 大概沒有辦法再延了好 沒關係 你們討論 因為我們不希望說 又面臨這個逃逸外勞 這個嚴重逃逸外勞的問題好 那謝謝我們司長 那針對我們今天討論巴士量表的部分 我請問一下 我們之前 之前我們"},{"start":6893.598,"end":6913.969,"text":"有關於我們在之前針對八四亮表的部分八月29號那時候在選舉的時候那個侯友宜總統參選人就有提出廢除八十歲以上八四亮表這個政見然後到第二天的隔天的時候我們衛福部也表達不反對然後我們也問過那"},{"start":6915.65,"end":6931.482,"text":"衛福部是說如果勞動部放寬到80歲以上的民眾皆可申請衛福部也不反對那是不是可以請問一下我們何部長針對這部分因為這之前勞動部的回應不然我們何部長針對巴士量表放寬到80歲以上"},{"start":6934.261,"end":6956.199,"text":"免申請的部分您有什麼看法?我非常尊重委員們的提案那也很肯定可是就是說我們已經當時就發展三項多元認定方式所以其實已經有效的取代了巴士量表它已經高達72%的80歲以上老人都用三項多元認定了"},{"start":6958.14,"end":6985.598,"text":"那我們現在了解就是說當初我們放出新三類勞動部說收益有60萬人當初我們衛福部他是說放寬的部分不會衝擊本國服務的發展怎麼後來這個放寬到80歲以後除了這新三類你說前面新三類收益60人不會衝擊那為什麼後來放寬到全面80歲以上又說會衝擊本國的服務發展"},{"start":6988.32,"end":6998.81,"text":"委員那是因為那個現在放的那三大多元認定三項多元認定是失能者啊你如果是只放80歲他就會擴及健康跟亞健康還有72萬人喔到時候你會有52萬的勞工移工在進來"},{"start":7005.596,"end":7031.314,"text":"那個當然一定會衝擊到本國的就業。對,我是希望,因為我們剛剛在提案說明的時候也有講,也希望我們勞動部跟衛福部,因為現在這個社會很多年輕人都在創業,都在就業,然後也有很多家裡的長輩,其實都沒有人照顧,而且現在醫療很進步,都八九十歲,當然他可能身體還可以,但是說實在話我們一直認為說這外籍看護,"},{"start":7031.994,"end":7040.325,"text":"是不是能夠在健康的時候就去照顧他不要等到跌倒失能之後才符合這個巴士量表的標準變成說"},{"start":7042.279,"end":7061.881,"text":"受傷自殘以後他發生沒有辦法治理以後才達到巴士量表標準才符合申請是不是在這一部分年輕人在外面創業就業家裡長輩沒有人照顧應該在健康的時候照顧他的日常生活起居避免他發生意外"},{"start":7062.361,"end":7090.743,"text":"甚至有些老人家有老人病什麼時候隨時高血壓心臟病等等跌倒不知道應該在健康的時候照顧他所以我們認為說我們衛福部勞動部針對這一部分為了全民的福祉希望還全於民希望針對這一部分我們希望能夠好好的來研議照顧我們80歲以上的長輩真的不要等到他們跌倒失能之後我們才符合八十年表去照顧他"},{"start":7092.282,"end":7096.183,"text":"好,這部分再請我們勞動部衛福部再幫我們多爭取。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝圖全齊委員。接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢。呃,主席,各位大家午安喔,適不適合請我們何部長。好,請何部長。委員好。"},{"start":7120.59,"end":7148.801,"text":"部長 這個需與曾委員所提的勞基法第五十條的修正草案新增一星期到五日的產假由僱主給新的規定你們的修法意見裡面提到說適用勞基法的女性勞工也可以改依勞工請假規則請普通傷病假一年內沒有超過30日部分工資則辦發給那為僱主不得因這個勞工產假請普通傷病假而扣發其全勤那你們後來又講說"},{"start":7150.462,"end":7174.848,"text":"為什麼你們反對呢?因為所增加的薪資費用整體雖有限但個別小型微型的企業仍有相當負擔為避免婦女受到隱性的就業歧視影響其工作權益建議審慎評估但是我要在這裡跟你講啊何部長條平司這種答覆真的是歧視我們女性你竟然強調說所增加的薪資費用整體來講有限"},{"start":7176.248,"end":7189.723,"text":"卻又說避免女性受到隱性的就業歧視,打著怕你被歧視而訂出歧視的政策。"},{"start":7190.799,"end":7206.076,"text":"那因為懷孕生產流產的都是女性在承擔半薪的普通雙病假大家都有男女老少通通都有可是我們今天講的是我們唯獨我們女性才會有的女性流產"},{"start":7207.057,"end":7229.091,"text":"您要我們跟大家都有的普通雙病假一樣要扣自己的半薪病假這顯然不公平你都知道女性的生小孩是國家整體勞動力的再生產最重要的而在今天女性為了整體勞動力的再生產而生出來我們說死有過死有出來大家就給他產假死沒出來"},{"start":7234.514,"end":7238.277,"text":"在這種狀況裏面我是要跟你講這個才是上個月我跟這個許明春部長質詢過然後他答應本席說他也認同而且要進行研議的政策今天你在這裡馬上打臉我打臉許明春然後反對我要再跟你分享一個就是說紐西蘭"},{"start":7258.032,"end":7267.35,"text":"紐西蘭在2021年修法通過流產的女性跟她的伴侶可以請三天的有薪的商駕"},{"start":7269.383,"end":7294.063,"text":"我們就不要講說這個價別的名稱啊流產的商價但給予有薪價有薪價不是叫我們請自己的扣自己的餒是看見我們女性流產她不只是生理上而且在心理上都需要時間調適這個就是真正的母性保護你不該只是看見生產的美好"},{"start":7294.764,"end":7323.564,"text":"然後都沒有看到我們女人對於流產的失去心理上的調適的問題所以在這裡啊部長有心的流產假你說啊這個性供法已經有了性供法給假但沒有給薪啊然後基法要給薪未滿三個月兩個月以上沒有給薪啊你都說這個錢才一點點而已為什麼要打著反歧視然後定出歧視的反對呢"},{"start":7328.36,"end":7352.8,"text":"委員其實我知道您先前一直有在為這件事情在努力那我也很肯定那我並沒有打臉我剛剛也說了我們會來評估那比較重點是這樣定了要有用總點是今天的提案的委員的提案全部都是雇主給啦都是要雇主給事實上"},{"start":7353.982,"end":7368.558,"text":"這部分顧主能不能做得到,這確實是一件要評估的事情。而我會覺得,如果真的要...那你同意,顯然你這樣說法是你同意給價給錢。現在是錢是顧主給還是這個基金給,是這樣子的意思吧?"},{"start":7369.079,"end":7371.061,"text":"其實重點會是在這裡,所以這個方向是對的,錢公共化處理我覺得你要看到我們女性為國家的勞動力在生產這個部分,那我現在就要講說大家還要放寬聘僱的門檻"},{"start":7388.714,"end":7413.499,"text":"救福法第46條的修正條文希望以年齡作為聘僱外籍看護的條件但是我們都知道外籍看護他的提供的是24小時的照顧但是大家所值的理由大概就是說需要有人陪伴需要有人看著他但是提這個他們預估這些委員提案大概預估是要增加多少的外籍人力"},{"start":7415.445,"end":7427.847,"text":"這樣的話會增加到五十二萬喔五十二萬 那我要問一個問題是請問有沒有遠遠不覺得移工輸出國願意輸出這麼大量的移工然後到台灣來因為大家都覺得通通放寬很好如果有遠遠不覺得外籍移工可以來台灣我也贊成請問有沒有這是一個有考慮的問題啊"},{"start":7443.959,"end":7463.447,"text":"不是啦我在問你因為現實政策上移工輸入有沒有移工輸出國有沒有這麼大量的勞動力可以輸出?其實現在全球都在搶工啦真的是還蠻困難的為什麼我要講這個是因為80歲以上的長者生活起居可能需要旁人協助"},{"start":7464.249,"end":7486.355,"text":"但是是不是需要24小時的看護就有待商榷了那我們現在以年齡劃分恐怕會排擠到真正照顧者的被看需要照顧的被看護者讓現在挑工的尤其是重症的缺乏照顧人力的問題更惡劣惡化就大家都覺得我要去照顧輕症的啊這個好看護的啊"},{"start":7493.897,"end":7508.162,"text":"重症的真正需要24小時的如果移工進來聽到你是重度殘障重度失能然後在那裡躺24小時你要不分日夜照顧的我想他們就不想顧了吧不想顧會怎麼樣保證?他們不想顧會怎麼樣?"},{"start":7511.834,"end":7537.759,"text":"是啊 所以委員這就是我們擔心的 完結啊 完結了喔 勞僱雙方吵架就會就容易言語肢體 然後就說這個威脅要轉換僱主了 所以你知道現在僱主尤其是重度失能的僱主身心俱疲啊 有移工也是很身心俱疲 因為大家要去顧好顧的 阿拉伯就是要去工廠賺更多錢的"},{"start":7540.521,"end":7559.471,"text":"所以我在講說大家都要當好人,大家都要當這個容易的都可以來申請看護,那我們要有一個前提,要有一個前提是移工必須要有源源不絕的移工,可是有嗎?"},{"start":7561.533,"end":7577.802,"text":"那我現在在跟你分享就是說衛福部111年進行老人狀況生活調查報告80歲以上的人口不需要他人協助的有51.93%需要他人協助及項目數比例是48.07%其中"},{"start":7580.623,"end":7603.811,"text":"累計四個項目,就是說它的這個需要需求性比較高的是38%,所以以年齡作為聘僱外籍看護的資格,在現行外籍看護還有仲介也在調工的媒合的狀況裡面,恐怕這樣下去會排擠真正需要24小時重症照顧的需求。"},{"start":7604.69,"end":7609.474,"text":"但是我雖然是這麼說你這樣子80歲就通通可以申請然後呢會排擠到重症可是你也不能否定啊輕度中度的照顧需求也存在那這些人要怎麼樣"},{"start":7622.611,"end":7640.556,"text":"這就是長照2.0我們不是在講長照嗎長照2.0要邁向3.0但是仍然趕不上國人的照顧需求所以這就衛福部的責任就來了你在外籍移工上你沒有全部開放"},{"start":7641.696,"end":7658.541,"text":"然後你在這裡你又做得不好在長照上又做得不好所以大家都會覺得渴望透過鬆綁外籍移工看護作為解決問題的方案嘛但照顧觀念應該以自力去取代服事嘛"},{"start":7659.361,"end":7678.898,"text":"所以在還沒有完全達到失能以前你就讓這些老人家輕度的中度的就導入24小時的外籍看護反而會有可能會加速退化不利於健康老化可是那衛福部你要做什麼衛福部衛福部3.0衛福部誰來衛福部3.0在哪裡啊"},{"start":7685.984,"end":7700.472,"text":"一有照顧需求就想到直接聘僱外勞外籍醫工外籍看護24小時的照顧又便宜又方便但這個對沒有完全失能的老人延緩老化不是一件好事啊"},{"start":7701.192,"end":7718.047,"text":"所以這也是我們長照2.0一直在推的日照中心拖老服務最核心的服務可是呢我們現在大家優先想到就一對一24小時的外籍看護優先與長照政策以至於我們要改變社會照顧的觀念真的是很難啦但我現在要問衛福部啦我們總統"},{"start":7723.491,"end":7741.941,"text":"賴總統當初提出了長照3.0的政見比如說要新增居家或社區晚間到宅照顧夜間緊急服務建立24小時的重度失能者的支持服務還有"},{"start":7743.542,"end":7745.523,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具"},{"start":7773.702,"end":7791.348,"text":"衛福部你現在坐到哪裡?謝謝委員我們事實上從蔡總統她的卸任8年執政其實兩份的民調都是民眾滿意度最高的我現在不再問你這個問題你答非所問我在問的是賴總統提出的長照3.0我講的是很具體的"},{"start":7796.09,"end":7811.678,"text":"局家或社區的晚間到宅照顧、夜間緊急服務、建立24小時的重度失能者的支持服務。我不要談我剛才講那麼多,就談這三項好了。這三項,你們的規劃是什麼時候要開始做?"},{"start":7812.538,"end":7830.621,"text":"是,各位委員也報告,剛剛其實你也提到,就是因為國人聘請移工,其實是民國78年就開始,所以遠遠早於國家推動長照政策之前,所以這個部分怎麼樣能夠翻轉國人的觀念,而不是所有的長輩都要24小時。那我們在講的是長照啦,我沒有跟你談這個移工服務啦,政策啦,我現在跟你講長照。"},{"start":7840.003,"end":7866.72,"text":"那所以因為這個會關聯因為要帶到24小時目前在長照政策是沒有辦法用一對一到宅去提供24小時的照顧服務這個是賴總統的政見來講新增我們要叫你24小時他在講居家或社區的晚間到宅照顧夜間緊急服務24小時的支持服務又不是叫你整天看著他支持服務"},{"start":7868.241,"end":7876.324,"text":"你們都沒有認真的看待賴總統的這個長照3.0喔?有沒有做準備?因為2.0是到115年所以我們大概就是115年很快餒今天113年餒你現在沒有準備115年就要憑空就掉下來嗎?所以我們才說為什麼這麼多委員要提案要直接這樣做"},{"start":7898.376,"end":7907.683,"text":"因為你的長照先 制度先接不來啊配套沒有來啊所以大家才會說乾脆大家都聘外勞外籍看護就好了啊好 那請回主席我說最後一個重整啦齁外界不斷的倡議要鬆綁聘僱外籍看護門檻但我要講說部長政府更應該關心這個照顧品質"},{"start":7924.52,"end":7939.412,"text":"在沒有辦法確實檢核來台前90個小時的照顧訓練那來台後的補充訓練實體課程的成效非常差僱主對於看護技術的滿意度七成八"},{"start":7940.635,"end":7961.673,"text":"所以我們在這裡一直在講說第一個 可望競速填補照顧人力的需求下還有法規沒有強制的這個規定下 你的這個事後的補充訓練當然提升照顧品質的成效是有限的啊"},{"start":7963.015,"end":7973.81,"text":"這樣要怎麼做?你的實體課程你知道上得多爛嗎?那是長照服務法裡面的規定我是在講外籍看護來台的訓練"},{"start":7976.664,"end":7981.526,"text":"我再講的是拼顧外籍看護來台他必須要照顧訓練外國受訓了90小時怎麼訓練我們檢核不出來啦但是來台以後要補充訓練你們實體課還有線上課你知道你們實體課開的多差嗎"},{"start":7993.951,"end":8011.141,"text":"你們開課量能一百班以上五百人以上但實體課程2022年關成功開辦一班一百班以上的準備只成功開一班六個人參訓到宅訓練則是2020以後沒有任何人申請"},{"start":8014.964,"end":8037.79,"text":"我們的意思是說,其實長照不是給他聘僱一個外籍看護來照顧,啊外籍看護來,你們就沒有管了,當然長照品質是衛福部了但是呢,我們外籍看護這個雇傭關係不好,有時候是來自於照顧品質不好,雇主不滿意嘛那現在在這種狀況裡面,我們也把長照的喘息服務計畫也納入了"},{"start":8039.091,"end":8044.778,"text":"長照cover到我們的外籍看護讓他一年有幾天的喘息天數你知道嗎52天那是漸漸增加52天等於是國家幫他買單休息日啊"},{"start":8054.148,"end":8068.622,"text":"國家幫他們買單休息日但是你不可以政府提供的經費讓你喘息結果其實僱主政府幫你買單了然後你對於這個照顧品質僱主也是獲利者啊"},{"start":8069.443,"end":8087.193,"text":"也是應該要啊所以你要不要讓這個移工到外面來上課你也是交給僱主決定啊僱主當然是算了最好讓他不要請假最好讓他一直上班比較好大家都知道外籍看護工每個月有放假的比例的是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":8088.609,"end":8088.629,"text":"案。"},{"start":8107.918,"end":8125.641,"text":"你們說的他們想要賺加班費,其實還有家中無替代照顧人力,那不放假的話,僱主發的加班費大概都有九成五有發,但是是很少很少很少的,其實簡單來講是僱主也不想要他放。"},{"start":8126.789,"end":8139.22,"text":"告主也不想要他放,即便我們有長照喘息服務了,告主也懶得申請啦。52天,告主也不想申請啦,我就是要這一個一直用一直用,全年365天都無休,我也不需要你給我喘息,雖然政府有喘息。所以我跟你講就是說,其實問題還蠻嚴重的,照顧的品質啦,還有"},{"start":8152.396,"end":8163.39,"text":"關乎者的勞動休息也很重要啦這個真的是問題重重好謝謝林委員那跟著一下我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":8555.097,"end":8558.478,"text":"好我們繼續開會接下來我們請陳穎委員資訊呃麻煩請勞動呃我們何部長好請何部長"},{"start":8576.929,"end":8598.514,"text":"委員好部長好就這一次的就服法修法有一個重點在於這個巴氏量表要不要作為評估果仁健康照顧聘用外勞的需求標準那本席有幾個問題要請教那首先是這個問題涉及到醫療專業它對於衛福部的報告你們都有仔細的看過嗎有"},{"start":8601.055,"end":8612.324,"text":"衛福部有說超過80歲的國人大約有91萬人其中重症有健康照顧的比例是41.7%也就是說總共大約有531,902人沒有照顧的需求"},{"start":8619.189,"end":8635.434,"text":"那一旦取消了巴士量表的評估是不是有可能超過80歲的人都有資格都可以申請這個外籍勞工的來看護那這樣的情況如果是真的那產生的衝擊影響我不曉得你們勞動部有沒有評估過"},{"start":8637.098,"end":8659.15,"text":"所以我們對這個部分我們當然是很審慎啦對所以一定有一定的衝擊嘛是是是那在過去常常有聽到這個外籍勞工就是假結婚的這個事情發生那一旦就是說如果不需要針對被照顧者的這個健康狀況評估會不會就是反而那種"},{"start":8659.79,"end":8674.628,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件中,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件中,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件中,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件中,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件中,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案 案件中,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案"},{"start":8679.674,"end":8682.217,"text":"外籍看護工的救安基金每個月是多少?"},{"start":8692.893,"end":8717.141,"text":"兩千好那這個外籍幫傭的是多少五千哇這個有做功課今天有準備的不錯那我們來看一下簡報這個外籍看護的人數有236000人那這個外籍幫傭僅僅只有2000人所以這個社福外社福外勞可以停留最多14年來計算的話呢"},{"start":8717.701,"end":8728.106,"text":"外籍看護14年,僱主要交給勞動部一共336,000元照顧小孩居多的外籍幫傭84萬元兩種職類的救安基金費"},{"start":8732.688,"end":8737.992,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8749.659,"end":8772.354,"text":"也就是即便符合這個外籍幫傭的申請在這個差額的趨勢上也不少人會想盡辦法就是把它改成申請外籍看護所以那個政府在這個救安基金費的這個設計上變成是有變相的這種誘導民眾去違法之嫌"},{"start":8773.755,"end":8802.808,"text":"而80歲免貧可申請外勞的話將來呢這種就是說違法聘僱的情形反而就是說我們預估啦其實會有增無減所以勞動部到時候這種事情發生的時候你們有能力去處理嗎是委員這也是我們擔心的事情啊就是您剛剛所講的80歲以上免貧的話有53萬的這種健康會員健康人口對那會是一個潛在的需要引進的數量嘛對不對有可能的"},{"start":8803.408,"end":8823.759,"text":"那這個部分的話當然所以我們目前我們沒有要這麼的還是要很慎重的我們目前是用多元認定增加多元認定的項目來評估私能這邊引進的非私能的部分我們也沒有"},{"start":8825.019,"end":8846.777,"text":"這我們有另外一塊我剛剛所講的移工引進這一個長照服務這樣子我們今天換個角度來想這個外籍幫傭的人數既然不多那即便每個月少繳3000元其實你們回去自己算一算真的不多那似乎對於這個整個的這個救安基金的水庫也影響不大"},{"start":8847.518,"end":8871.724,"text":"所以我想要請教就是說我們是否今天我要替我們這個國家這個少子化的這個危機我們都可以來盡一點努力啦就是我們如果將這個社福外籍勞工的救安基金費用把它調整一致不知道部長的看法如何?委員你是指說家庭幫用下調嗎?"},{"start":8873.044,"end":8880.413,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":8890.606,"end":8914.591,"text":"但是因為我剛剛前面我講的是沒錯有很多就因為外籍看護比較便宜比較好請然後他們甚至很多都變成去做幫用的事了這個其實當然也不這是絕對也是違法的啦啊事實上您講的是一個目前有確實有存在現象這個我承認不過呢是不是家庭幫用這一塊的費用要下調其他人數是很少啦"},{"start":8915.111,"end":8917.813,"text":"當時一個設計師想要用這個來當門檻,讓大家少用啦,平安心講,因為家庭幫庸這一塊我們並不鼓勵啦。我們過去有請了一位生了,當時他來的時候,"},{"start":8936.988,"end":8954.787,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":8955.948,"end":8972.466,"text":"此事相當嚴重,我今天是把這樣的建議拋出來,我也沒有要部長說立即,如果部長有一些疑慮,那也沒關係,你們回去好好的細算,因為畢竟這樣子的這個我剛剛有提了這個是"},{"start":8974.968,"end":8990.502,"text":"獎勵費用自外籍勞工開放以來已經這麼久都沒有調整過了而且過了這麼多年很多的情形是有改變的包括我們少子化的這個情況也越來越嚴重也包括之前來的那一位媽媽"},{"start":8991.623,"end":9016.161,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件 已申到第七個小孩,我不知道會不會有第八個跑出來。」議員楊瓊瓊等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件 已申到第七個小孩,我不知道會不會有第八個跑出來。」議員楊瓊瓊等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件 已申到第七個小孩,我不知道會不會有第八個跑出來。」議員楊瓊瓊等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案案件 已申到第七個小孩,我不知道"},{"start":9020.734,"end":9042.383,"text":"在過去本席也有聽到說民眾反映巴士分太嚴格的意見。那我要請問就是說我們什麼時候開始使用這個巴士量表?三十年前吧。三十年前。對。那這段期間巴士量表有沒有改版?我們用的是三十年前還是幾年前的版本還是這個是最新的版本?"},{"start":9044.763,"end":9069.185,"text":"這是國際標準,所以我們現在才發展多元認定就是這樣。好啦,那國際如果沒有進步的時候我們也可以做先驅啊。可是那個國際沒辦法,那是醫學上的認定。好,反正我也點出這一點,那其實就是說當初這個定下的這個80分的依據是怎麼來的?是哪一年決定的?"},{"start":9071.697,"end":9099.564,"text":"來 我們設計人在這裡設計的人跟委員報告那個當初是我們跟衛福部齁本來是從他的這個失能程度是從一個所謂的完全依賴那一般完全依賴的概念過去就是巴士量20分以下但是因為這個坦白講標準太嚴格所以後來就放寬放寬到一個所謂嚴重依賴目前是用巴士量35分這個標準那現行就是依照這個標準那所以你是哪一年訂的嗎"},{"start":9100.78,"end":9119.113,"text":"這個大概在90年那個時候。有這麼晚嗎?我查到的是81年耶。沒有沒有,一開始跟委員八十一年我們沒有採用八十兩條。這樣齁,90年到現在也是很久啦。所以當年我們國人的健康問題,就是說當年的健康問題跟現在有一樣嗎?"},{"start":9120.73,"end":9137.768,"text":"應該也不太一樣吧?其實確實現在其實也整個國內的一個高齡化在整個情況其實有點改變。對,起碼這個80歲的這個平均餘命是一定不一樣的啦。那所以我們的標準理論上也應該就是要定期檢討,甚至要滾動式的修正嘛。"},{"start":9139.669,"end":9163.241,"text":"勞動部跟衛福部其實可以一起合作去洽詢相關的比如說醫學會那針對這個量表的評估認定在這個巴士量表的基礎上可以去改良修訂自己的評估方法那或者是說把這個評估的這個把這個標準的分數下修例如說下修到70分或者是更低等等"},{"start":9164.161,"end":9187.331,"text":"這樣總比你一下子全部拿掉要好啦好大家就是各退一步嘛我們找一個比較合理的一個方式那最後我想就針對這個外籍勞工引進的意義提出我的看法啦在這個日本日本的這個高齡化是比我們早蠻多的那我所知道他們這個外勞的這個引進跟台灣有所不同首先是由這個專業的這個長照機構來引進的"},{"start":9190.692,"end":9203.804,"text":"工作地點在機構裡面。進來之前他們需要經過語言的學習,還有照顧技巧跟專業知識的教育訓練。我順便提到,如果未來是原住民的可能還要加一個文化敏感度。"},{"start":9208.373,"end":9226.866,"text":"兩者都是要及格之後才可以拿到工作許可證。表現良好的一段時間可以入籍。這個就是我所知道的日本的情況。我不曉得勞動部針對這些你們也應該有去日本考察過吧?應該有吧?"},{"start":9228.72,"end":9245.154,"text":"之前有收集議題因為我記得邱P也帶隊都有衛福部的勞動部我沒有印象衛福部是有隨行所以已經外籍勞工從事健康看護那涉及的這個層面還蠻廣的像勞動部、衛福部跟甚至內政部"},{"start":9246.215,"end":9266.325,"text":"我是希望說我們各部會可以一起來努力好好的商定討論那最後我要特別謝謝部長就是在於我上次質詢有關於這個勞動檢查報告要和勞保局還有法人連線的部分部長很睿智的當下有裁示了"},{"start":9267.345,"end":9291.873,"text":"對於你們部裡面就是專屬裡面有立即著手準備的同仁們那本席也希望說部長你可以給他們予以這個肯定跟鼓勵那但是對於極少數我不曉得什麼原因還堅持不公開連線的高階主管呢我也請部長可以留意好好去了解到底中間有什麼貓膩好不好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":9296.28,"end":9298.692,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":9324.102,"end":9344.8,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請部長。好,請何部長。委員好。部長好。今天審查這個《就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案》很多的版本。是。我們先看這個《就業服務法第四十六條》。"},{"start":9347.701,"end":9358.251,"text":"第十款未因應國家重要建設工程或經濟社會發展需要,經中央主管機關指定之工作。"},{"start":9363.749,"end":9383.598,"text":"這個112年3月6號這個我們看這個勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組第35次會議記錄這個當時的陳昭吉委員昭吉的名人蔡富昭吉人孟良代理這個主持這個會議這裡面在112年3月6號的這個會議裡面"},{"start":9391.222,"end":9415.77,"text":"特別提到為了因應原則同意營造業引進營造移工採階段性先行開放總額8000名並視實施執行期可增加到1.5萬名的一個外籍勞工然後合佩率合佩比例為30%合計最高不得超過40%"},{"start":9418.09,"end":9430.107,"text":"這樣的一個就是當然跟這個相關就業服務法46條授權訂定的這個工作資格及審查標準你們也做了修正"},{"start":9431.331,"end":9450.122,"text":"然後相關的這些本來93年1月13號的這個標準是總金額在新台幣兩萬元以上你們也把它修正為總金額新台幣一億元剛剛本來是兩億現在一億元以上就可以了大大的放寬了"},{"start":9452.731,"end":9464.627,"text":"好,重點是說這個這幾年來這8年多來修正了18次修正了18次非常的頻繁那我們看這個這裡面"},{"start":9468.424,"end":9486.166,"text":"我的重點就是說民國93年1月13號定定發布這個《外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準》一開始的條文"},{"start":9487.607,"end":9511.015,"text":"外國人受第十七條僱主聘僱從事營造工作僱主以取得初次招募許可後每禁用原住民一人得申請引進外國人兩人。那我們現在這幾年這個營造業確實切工沒有錯但是原住民的"},{"start":9512.364,"end":9523.748,"text":"事業率還是很高。原住民跟非原住民的事業率還是很高。原住民還是很高。所以但是111年4月30號"},{"start":9527.489,"end":9549.597,"text":"你們把這個條文刪除了沒有原住民的保障的條款所以這個部分對原住民主而言要引進外籍勞工從事營造業我們不反對我們也支持但是我們的就業的機會為什麼要刪除所以這個部分"},{"start":9550.973,"end":9578.341,"text":"我也曾經在去年質詢了前任的部長,我也質詢了。勞動部部長,我特別質詢是不是能夠回覆這個條文。部長的回答,喜民村部長的回答,這個部分我們再來評估演繹,能夠回覆這個條文。"},{"start":9580.54,"end":9594.738,"text":"但是回覆了結果什麼都沒有提到寫了一大堆都沒有提到回覆還是不回覆都沒有提到就業服務法二十四條明定"},{"start":9596.618,"end":9622.051,"text":"要保障原住民的就業因為原住民的失業率一直都很高所以這個部分要保障但是現在把這個原來的保障條款刪除了本席根據盧憲一我有連署盧憲一的版本他的版本這裡特別提到但這個"},{"start":9624.237,"end":9646.525,"text":"這個第四十六條有針列但書但前項第九款是家庭康復工其被康復者即有原住民身份者其評估與認定方式應會同衛生福利部及原住民組委員會定制這個你們知此重要的重要的被你們刪除的條文"},{"start":9647.998,"end":9666.998,"text":"我提出修正動議所以增加第四十六條的這一款增加最後一項營造業僱主一項第十款規定聘僱外國人以取得招募許可後每禁用原住民一人"},{"start":9667.819,"end":9690.544,"text":"或者是向原住民族,如果他沒有辦法禁用原住民,他要願意繳綜合發展基金的貸金,得先請引進外國人兩人。所以這個不然會比原來的條文,被刪除的條文還好。所以請勞動部能夠支持。以上,可以嗎?"},{"start":9691.77,"end":9708.141,"text":"委員我們這個要評估一下喔因為就46條是規範就醫標準資格的跟這個很內涵這個法制上可能有點沒有問題法制上我寫法律的沒有問題老公也好謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":9720.268,"end":9722.63,"text":"何佩珊部長新竹兩名消防員不幸罹難事件"},{"start":9737.807,"end":9760.736,"text":"離難之前曾喊說求救,但是到最後40分鐘之後尋獲喪命。過去到現在其實消防員一直有提到公安、職安跟主公會三大訴求。主公會之前我們稍微有排相關的一個修法,我今天比較想要更重要的是要focus在職安的部分。"},{"start":9761.616,"end":9777.539,"text":"因為這兩名的消防員一個年資19年一位年資14年其實都是非常算是訓練有數的消防員也都才30多歲你我來講我們的年齡都是他們的哥哥姐姐但他們就不幸離開了"},{"start":9778.66,"end":9806.315,"text":"所以到現在來講近10年有45位消防員弟兄已經離開那麼危險的一個事件但是我們一直在講說警消訴求應該要用職安法來納入因為職安法的規定僱主的職災預防責任國家的勞檢制度還有僱主依法防止職災發生的課則都是有所必要的到目前"},{"start":9807.708,"end":9833.767,"text":"我想請教部長您的態度是什麼委員指的是職安法納入消防員這部分這部分因為牽涉到那個法體系的問題那當然因為這牽涉到內政部消防署所以我們還有包括考試院因為這個整個的因為消防員屬於公務人員所以我們原先的這個規劃是因為公務員不是用職安法"},{"start":9834.487,"end":9853.318,"text":"所以說政府是公務員的雇主那沒有防止職業災害或是保障工作者健康的時候沒有任何罰則公務員頂多寄過或是調職但是我們想請教過去到現在消防員殉職的案件消防單位裡面有哪一個主管因為這樣而被懲處"},{"start":9856.02,"end":9883.98,"text":"所以沒有啊 那這也是消防員為什麼會覺得是說他的工作風險度比任何一個行業都來的高但是他的保障卻是最低的對 所以他我了解是內政部消防法已經把職業安全衛生專章送到行政院應該很快就會送立院應該要在那部分規範會更實際啦 有保障而且能實際能運作這樣子你現在看到的是公務人員的安全及衛生辦法是不是"},{"start":9884.56,"end":9901.69,"text":"不是,消防法裡面徵定職業安全衛生專章給消防員,它就是為消防員這個常常有這樣子的意外而徵定的,在民洋大火之後就開始規劃了。但是到目前為止還是沒有看到,但我們又看到了,所以我們其實說實在話,這就是跟時間賽跑嘛。"},{"start":9905.892,"end":9927.167,"text":"第一是跟時間賽跑第二是要給消防員足夠的一個保障以及第三真的不要再發生說今天攻進明天忘記的事件那我現在請教的是身為職業安全主管機關部長上一任的部長許明春有承諾說他不會反對公務人員安全衛生辦法保障不要低於職業安全衛生法"},{"start":9928.164,"end":9956.219,"text":"那一樣道理如果說未來消防員納入執安法或是另外修法也應該要有跟執安法一樣等同規範的保障您認同嗎當然那個所以我們在消防法職業安全衛生專章我們也有參與我們跟消防組一起會的所以會跟現在的執安法一樣的標準態度包括說本席剛有提到的雇主職災的預防責任國家勞檢的制度以及衛醫法防止職災發生的課則"},{"start":9957.6,"end":9987.041,"text":"都應該要加強對 我們兩單位有會他們消防署有參照我們職安署的這個規定然後然後來看是不是來那本席最後想請教什麼時間點會送出行政院我們來幫忙push好嗎因為其實不是我們的業務啦是內政部可是沒關係政府一體的我們也來幫忙然後跟行政院反映請行政院趕快送立院這樣子因為本席要確定的就是勞動部部長的態度"},{"start":9987.641,"end":10011.201,"text":"當然我也會去詢問內政部部長甚至本期在之後的總諮詢也會要求行政院長表態但最重要的是時間不等人尤其是這件事情已經是過去10年消防員也好警察同仁也好也都認為說勢在必行公安、職安以及主公會三大訴求至少在職安的部分上面我們都要加緊腳步謝謝委員謝謝部長好謝謝洪茉凱委員"},{"start":10018.085,"end":10018.845,"text":"王紅薇委員"},{"start":10031.273,"end":10048.686,"text":"部長好 今天其實我們是要聚焦在就是針對這個巴士良表可不可以開放80歲以上就可以免巴士良表那我剛才看你跟其他委員的答詢基本上你們是不支持的但是我想請問一下"},{"start":10051.668,"end":10077.959,"text":"賴清德總統他在選舉的時候針對八十兩表他的政見是依照年齡身心障礙重大傷病罕見疾病癌症中風等不同類別建立多元標準那請問一下那麼你們不支持八十歲以上免八十兩表那請問一下那麼對於總統的政見落實未來八十兩表要怎麼樣的去改善調整"},{"start":10078.959,"end":10090.469,"text":"委員我們不是不是不支持其實我非常的支持我非常肯定這個提案的精神那可是跟委員報告就是說所以我們現在用多元認定來增進那你要怎麼樣多元認定"},{"start":10094.753,"end":10119.202,"text":"因我來看每次多元認定就是多錢認定啊我們看到很多有錢的這個家庭裡面他們的這個看護可能非常多但是呢我們一些小老百姓真的就被八十兩表真的是弄到真的都快要抓狂所以你不要跟我講空的那請問一下所謂的多元認定你們未來怎麼樣改善嘛趕快講趕快做好不好"},{"start":10119.622,"end":10137.547,"text":"委員已經在做了,去年10月有新增三項多人認證,第一個是長照服務6個月,第二個是輕度失智的,第三個是重度增長啊。好這是新的證件啊,你不要跟我倒退路啊,我們現在是新的總統啊,你是新的部長啊,那幹嘛還要你上任呢?"},{"start":10138.747,"end":10157.592,"text":"這也是當時賴總統他在重視之後才提出的。所以你的意思是說就是做到去年10月那個新的政策之後就沒有了?啊不,我們可以再精進。這個當然你拜…好那怎麼做?趕快告訴我怎麼做。我們可以再精進啦,就是還有什麼可以放寬的喔。好哪一項?哪一項會放寬?我們會來"},{"start":10159.213,"end":10162.536,"text":"我們會來評估來處理好嗎然後可以給我們一個授權非常失望欸你現在空話一堆我現在問你要怎麼樣精進法然後你告訴我去年十月的那幹嘛還要新的部長呢對不對你到現在都沒有任何的具體的東西啊"},{"start":10177.09,"end":10198.86,"text":"然後我們接著來看那麼事實上我們一直在講因為用這個家庭看護工很多的家庭非常需要尤其一些就是一些這個有失能者的這個家庭那更是非常辛苦其實呢好幾次我們都有召開這樣的公聽會很多的失能家來往前面"},{"start":10200.3,"end":10227.396,"text":"當中對於移工、移戰士的服務認為他們會造成很多的勞資爭議那麼希望能夠廢除移工、移戰士服務因為移工、移戰士服務他落實了之後有他的薪金移工很多因為他移到了這種失能者的家庭他就要求他要移出他就要換僱主那麼而且你也可以看到很多失能者家庭他們這個"},{"start":10228.917,"end":10252.826,"text":"告請這些看護工事實上是非常非常痛苦我們來看下一頁這個也是當時我們在這個公聽會的時候有一位失能者賴先生說因為他找了外籍看護之後呢不停的就是惡意的這個拉他呀而且造成了他事實上韌帶拉傷等等簡直是是被虐待喔那他真的覺得說如果政府今天是這樣的話"},{"start":10253.806,"end":10272.394,"text":"他寧願希望政府開放安樂死那時候我們講他講完之後我們現場很多人都哽咽落淚在前兩天不是也發生一個新聞嗎就是外籍看護工他事實上在虐待一個也是重度智能者的孩子"},{"start":10273.554,"end":10290.659,"text":"讓他冬天裡面他不能穿衣服然後把他弄到櫃子裡面然後把他蓋被子以後就對他拳打腳踢如果不是家裡有監視器然後他的父母根本不知道他的孩子是這樣被虐待"},{"start":10291.559,"end":10311.314,"text":"所以這些失能者他們找這個看護工非常非常的痛苦但是我們的政府永遠都是這樣我們的外籍看護有人權但是我們的雇主沒有人權我想請問一下像那樣子的一個重度智能的這些兒童在家裡"},{"start":10312.975,"end":10329.168,"text":"外籍看護這樣的被虐待然後像這樣的一個賴先生他真的是覺得說有安樂死他就去安樂死了那為什麼我們的政府沒有辦法去照顧我們自己的人民然後一天到晚說這外籍看護必須要有人權"},{"start":10331.89,"end":10354.984,"text":"這個所謂一戰式服務最後呢很多的雇主跟我們反映就是呢他的一個就是你要告訴他所有的權益最後呢到這種失能者家庭他就離開那反而造成我們很多失能者家庭的他們的痛苦跟失能者家庭的負擔所以我想請問一下我們移工一戰式的父母有沒有可能"},{"start":10355.804,"end":10377.012,"text":"來做一個調整,不要變成是一個在那邊他受訓了之後還要雇主付錢然後再告訴他要怎麼樣來最後一到雇主家庭他就可以申請移出這個部分是不是能夠對我們自己本身的這些雇主尤其失能者雇主你們有一點點的人權保護"},{"start":10378.112,"end":10387.097,"text":"是,我了解。這個當然一開始是基於提升移工人權而設計的一個方式啦。那我們的故事有沒有人權呢?對對,當然當然。就是說您這一個推詢的這一個重點我們來檢討好不好。"},{"start":10393.72,"end":10415.274,"text":"就是說他未來他未來是他他其實不能隨便轉出捏就是現在是不行的所以他沒有隨便轉出的問題我覺得應該是那個移工訓練啦他的顯然是照顧訓練技巧不足很多的僱主已經啊已經提出很久了就是希望能夠廢除那個一站式服務那你說你們要檢討大概要花多少時間檢討我們是"},{"start":10420.086,"end":10439.375,"text":"三個月來評估檢討好不好好不好三個月好不好三個月給您一個這個回覆給我們一個一件事因為這些雇主為這個事實在是非常非常痛苦好不好好好好謝謝好謝謝王宏威委員接下來我們請楊耀委員繼續謝謝主席請下何部長"},{"start":10450.631,"end":10473.697,"text":"委員國際勞工組織指出在工作中生育保護有兩個目的第一個就是我們要保護母體跟胎兒的健康另外一個就是提供他就業跟收入的保障"},{"start":10474.856,"end":10496.612,"text":"也就是說不受解雇和歧視並且可以保證她產後重返工作權利我們就所有受孕婦女的保障大概就必須要朝這兩個目的來做落實"},{"start":10502.128,"end":10503.329,"text":"一般來講,國際勞工組織建議的產價最少是18週。我們現在的產價是多少?8週。"},{"start":10526.094,"end":10540.938,"text":"我大概可以稍微更正一下,國際公約應該是規定14週。那我們現在,我們的整個產價合併起來。那14週是不是就是跟現在的修法版本是一樣的?對不對?"},{"start":10544.537,"end":10563.353,"text":"委員這次的修法是12週啦是12週啊多數是12週那我跟委員報告我們現在的所有產價合起來包括安胎價產檢價產價本身8週有心部分合併已經大概15週了我們都大概符合國際標準15週是怎麼是怎麼"},{"start":10565.755,"end":10590.696,"text":"這是安胎假30天半薪日數沒有上限然後產檢假7天是全薪然後再加產假8週整個有薪部分合併就有15週安胎假不是半薪嗎對安胎假是半薪啦我是指有薪當然也含半薪有薪你剛剛念的是7天加8週欸對"},{"start":10594.158,"end":10605.182,"text":"不是七週加八週耶?是七天加八週耶?對不對?有薪假是九週。全薪九週。半薪還有三十天。"},{"start":10613.283,"end":10628.195,"text":"所以部長覺得我們這樣子對於孕婦職業婦女在受孕期間的保障她的假期是夠的?勞動部這邊的基本立場是不是這樣子?"},{"start":10629.588,"end":10651.224,"text":"當然希望可以更好啦可是這更好要評估啦就是說牽涉到勞僱雙方就是您講的更好可能就是就是就是我國的企業裡面齁大概有有超過97%是30人以下的企業啦微型企業就是未滿5個的大概有超過80%所以延長產價"},{"start":10655.649,"end":10680.094,"text":"怎麼降低中低企業的人力調配?對 這就是問題因為他們一定要有人取代嘛然後呢沒人取代的時候他就會乾脆那我就不請你了就會造成反而對女性就業不利啦對產後的女性就業不利對啊或是有可能懷孕的女性不過部長這樣子回答"},{"start":10681.809,"end":10702.506,"text":"怪怪的就是說就是說欸延長了以後他就會他可以他可以可以這樣子解雇嗎不是他不能解雇可是我的意思說那他就在這一個在雇用的選擇的時候他就會比較會有歧視出現嗎對啊就是欸"},{"start":10708.763,"end":10734.098,"text":"對 隱性的 這個是因為我們法律上是不允許的我現在的意思是這樣子就是說這次提出來的修法版本大概都是以12週的參加就是把原本的8週提高到12週那我現在只是在問說因為這個就是牢固雙方要一起看一起"},{"start":10735.219,"end":10735.719,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具"},{"start":10752.83,"end":10778.923,"text":"有沒有什麼想法部長對於降低中小企業人力調配的衝擊有沒有什麼想法啦我現在是問這個啦降低中小企業人力調配這個當然是這樣啦委員就是說如果說您支持這個產業要繼續延長的話重點是要讓它做得到啦"},{"start":10779.743,"end":10795.956,"text":"阿你如果是要僱主給薪他就會不願意阿所以如果要做可能要朝公共化去設計啦就是所謂的由政府來提供預算支持啦那這個不裡面支持嗎這個我還不敢問欸我們可以往這個方向來研議啦"},{"start":10798.277,"end":10818.467,"text":"我們來往這個方向研議好不好?如果委員支持的話,委員覺得應該要這麼做的話。這個我目前就是沒有答案,所以我也沒有提出來。對,可是即便政府預算支持,它也有人力調配的問題。人力調配就不是我能夠去處理了。而且把很多"},{"start":10823.729,"end":10824.85,"text":"我問一下巴斯亮表齁"},{"start":10839.065,"end":10848.007,"text":"所以說衛福部在2022年的老人狀況調查中指出70歲到74歲的長者大概有19%75歲到79歲有25%80歲以上有32%這個比例是什麼呢就是他自認自己的身體狀況不太好或是很不好"},{"start":10866.835,"end":10887.824,"text":"那80歲以下我們不討論就是說80歲以上有32%的人覺得他的身體狀況不太好再加上80歲以上他有的時候身體狀況在健康狀況在下滑的速度是非常快"},{"start":10889.031,"end":10916.698,"text":"所以也就因為這樣子所以才有免82票的主張那剛剛我也聽到部長講大概我們現在有一些配套出來包括長照需求的指數等等那我要問的是這樣子就是說假如說我們放寬了"},{"start":10919.127,"end":10941.326,"text":"怎麼確保外籍移工的引進數量可以滿足因為臺灣馬上要進入超高齡社會其實像在澎湖獨居的老人很多怎麼確保外籍移工的引進數量可以滿足市場需求因為這有前站53萬的"},{"start":10943.367,"end":10968.338,"text":"移工數的需求這是很龐大而且會產生衝擊的問題所以我們要審慎那這個就是布裡面現在有沒有我們沒有我們就是害怕就是我們擔心這個所以我們對這個問題我們會比較審慎對今天的修法雖然精神上我支持啦可是就是說做法上我們是不是可以再更審慎一點這樣子對"},{"start":10970.259,"end":10985.234,"text":"因為其實我還是要講我基本上是贊成的可是我又怕引進的勞動力不足會排擠到原來失能的照顧可是從另外一個角度來看就是說"},{"start":10986.155,"end":11011.973,"text":"我剛才講了嘛我們的平均移民大概男性81女性84左右嘛表示說他到了80歲就有一個臨界點所以確實是有需求才會有委員的版本這個我們必須要先承認這樣子那假如說外籍移工的引進數量你們沒有辦法確保"},{"start":11013.533,"end":11033.009,"text":"那恐怕第一個就是會有排擠的效應第二個會有移工來挑被照顧者的情況因為80歲不用平定就可以聘請外籍看護工"},{"start":11043.089,"end":11053.208,"text":"那他可能是目前需求不大可是他就先申請了"},{"start":11054.042,"end":11073.177,"text":"他財力上可以嘛,所以他先申請了,那他申請了以後就會有一個原本必須要受到照顧的長者沒有辦法受到妥善的照料。這一些問題希望部裡面都能夠趕快去做一些處理。"},{"start":11074.638,"end":11099.119,"text":"特別是引進勞動力的部分這個恐怕必須要加油因為台灣超高齡社會的來臨會很快在離島偏鄉會更快因為離島偏鄉獨居的老人太多因為在地就業的機會太少所以中壯年人口外流"},{"start":11100.299,"end":11110.647,"text":"所以這個請部裡面趕快去做一些計畫。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。接下來我們請張志倫委員質詢。好,謝謝主席、各位委員、各位官員。大家早安。有請何部長。請何部長。"},{"start":11128.989,"end":11152.325,"text":"好 部長早 恭喜部長在擔任我們的勞動部長那我有看過部長的一些經歷部長過去不僅是在這個立法院服務過那也過去也擔任過這個行政院的副秘書長那我相信你應該是這個最了解民生 最可以苦民所苦那本席也期待你可以用專業讓我們的人民更好謝謝"},{"start":11153.506,"end":11172.392,"text":"首先還是要請教部長,有關於賴清德520的就職演說的部分,其實我有讀過,整體讀過。他針對全民現在最關心的,就是我們現在全台灣一千多萬的勞工的勞保,他提了一句話,他說:「大家關心勞保財務,我再次強調,只要政府在,勞保絕對不會倒。」"},{"start":11174.213,"end":11198.071,"text":"那相信部長現在應該非常清楚現在很多的資料統計現在這個以勞保基金精算的負債是標破13兆那尤其在2023年底勞保基金的負債是13兆4650億照上一年度的2022年的時候是增加了12兆的部分是增加了非常多的金額那請問一下部長這個有關於賴總統講的說這個政府債勞保絕對不會倒"},{"start":11204.456,"end":11224.349,"text":"請問在勞動你們有沒有什麼措施來協助這個部分?委員我已經就一再的強調總統這一個談話他的內涵就是我們那政府執政有能力發展經濟然後確保我們有足夠的財政能力可以對勞保進行挹注跟撥補"},{"start":11226.011,"end":11231.736,"text":"所以勞工朋友不要擔心我們這個撥補就是實踐政府最終支付責任的改革勞工朋友也絕對不要擔心所謂的潛藏負債因為這個潛藏負債其實不是真正的負債它是一個可能產生給負責任這個意思而已"},{"start":11245.289,"end":11268.417,"text":"就事務上絕對不可能1050萬勞工在同一個時間擬啦。那個是會分階段慢慢發生的。好,部長謝謝你的說明。第2點我要跟您特別報告。這個潛藏負債是因為這個國際上它因為一些準則的規定它不用列到我們每一個國家的總負債當中。可是第一個不代表它不是負債。就像剛剛部長特別提到說如果有人擬"},{"start":11269.617,"end":11297.59,"text":"他就是要給付所以只要以財快的角度來講只要有人領他就對政府來講他就是一種負債只是說現在依照準則的部分不用列到這個國家的總負債這第一點要跟這個部長來說明了那第二點要跟部長拜託的是說這個金額有一個原理就是我剛有特別提到他的金額一直不斷的在快速的增加當中所以還會累積到13兆所以萬丈高樓平地期他會累積到13兆一定是他"},{"start":11298.59,"end":11314.987,"text":"的金額一直不斷負債一直不斷的增加所以我們當然對待總統講的這一段話不會導事實上打有很大的問號因為其實只要金額不斷累積去增加其實這事實上來講這金額越來越高感覺起來就是沒有解決人民的問題啦因為只要假設"},{"start":11316.008,"end":11330.145,"text":"我進去的錢比他領出來的錢還要多造成這個負債金額越來越大其實就是會造成這個金額越來越高所以拜託部長因為你才剛上任我相信這是一個壓力可是也是一個責任所以我今天不是要你去一定要回答這個問題"},{"start":11331.286,"end":11352.486,"text":"我直接說希望部長可以來研究一下那你要跟部長請教一下請問在這個今年度的時候有沒有新的勞保的政策會來實行你們有沒有在演繹一些新的政策我覺得這才是全民想要去了解請問部長有嗎我有啊就是除了這一個我們撥補持續的撥補之外而且那金額是相當"},{"start":11353.746,"end":11369.56,"text":"是也會不低於去年度的喔所以這個是大概1200億左右的規格然後呢我們在開源部分我們會做很多努力啦但有沒有可能性啦我只問可能性有沒有可能會增加每一個勞工的勞保費不可能"},{"start":11370.222,"end":11386.513,"text":"不可能嘛齁,好,了解,這點我相信大家最重視的是這一點齁,那因為時間關係有第二個問題齁,台灣現在目前第一個面臨到最嚴重的就是少子化問題齁,經濟統計報告顯示現在一個家庭現在平均生小孩只有1.09個人齁,這是全台灣最"},{"start":11387.353,"end":11413.838,"text":"全世界最低那所以今天我跟部長報告大家很重視的是在養跟育所以今天我相信國民黨團提出來的版本是產價的增加到12週就是希望這個媽媽們願意生小孩那這部分我剛才也聽到部長講你說要做一個縝密性的一個商量所以我還是希望說部長這個部分應該要來幫苦民所苦"},{"start":11414.258,"end":11422.283,"text":"議員林德福等19人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及"},{"start":11443.237,"end":11449.684,"text":"巴斯亮表的部分剛剛你也提過因為時間的關係我直接跳到最後一題可以看到的部分最後一題最後一題就是保姆的部分"},{"start":11456.476,"end":11475.715,"text":"好最近我一直在這個民間遇到很多的我剛剛一直在講嘛養跟育都很重要可是我要幫我們這個全這個很多現在正在做保姆的人來幫他們申訴就我了解現在有在宅在家裡幫忙帶的保姆的他們的費用一個兩歲以下"},{"start":11476.596,"end":11488.848,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":11497.617,"end":11512.887,"text":"拿不到三萬塊要顧兩個小孩,而且現在草紙化可能要顧慮到兩個家庭的心理的感受。我不是說要幫忙讓很多的家庭負擔更比較重,我相信政府單位這邊應該來協助這邊。部長你怎麼看?"},{"start":11518.951,"end":11538.465,"text":"這是衛福部的責任,可是害的是我們的勞工,所以我希望兩邊可以互相來做資源,就是說兩邊互相做討論。當你們發現說臺灣的勞工,尤其是這些保姆,他取得薪資相對較低的時候,你們應該也要建議衛福部這邊,這個薪資的部分是不是可以著雨調高。"},{"start":11539.566,"end":11540.027,"text":"接下來我們請林德福委員質詢"},{"start":11572.89,"end":11586.798,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請何部長好請何部長部長你好我請教是因為114年政府行政機關這個辦公日曆表似乎還沒有開會討論確定這個人事行政總署預計何時會開會你知不知道唉"},{"start":11600.309,"end":11606.636,"text":"這我可能要查一下呢這我不是很了解因為齁全民都很期待五一勞動節改為全國"},{"start":11609.645,"end":11629.686,"text":"國定假日。本時是希望說114年起五一勞動節能夠讓全國統一休假。何部長,因為行政院長卓院長有沒有交辦處理與內政部跟人事行政總組到底何時開會,哪時候會有結論?"},{"start":11633.603,"end":11650.024,"text":"那個委員因為這個其實是陳院長時代確實他有處理所以說你們目前我們並沒有接到昨院長有這個指示那個其實齁因為你要統一阿結果現在這個事情其實當很久了啦"},{"start":11650.663,"end":11667.9,"text":"那我認為說有的休假有的不休假這個講在外界齁這個批評很多啦齁因為你沒有統一啊造成也很多人很困擾尤其很多家裡有小朋友啦那家長休息或者小朋友怎麼樣反正我認為這個應該要積極去處理啦齁何部長"},{"start":11672.184,"end":11697.144,"text":"第二個根據內政部統計80歲以上的人口至今今年的4月一共有91萬人此外國發會推估到2034年80歲以上的民眾差不多有162萬人許多高齡長者需要有人來照顧但是巴士量表制度卻讓許多家庭感到苦惱更造成許多醫病關係緊張的狀況"},{"start":11699.286,"end":11724.461,"text":"那行政院卓院長就任時就宣布說行動創新AI內閣啟動他強調將推動胡國立民的法案本席今天當然我有提出來就是說就業服務法第四十六條的草案就是胡國立民的法案那我希望勞動部這次也能夠支持這個案子那個部長有什麼看法"},{"start":11725.462,"end":11753.084,"text":"委員您的提案我就是非常肯定您的這個提案的精神那我就是說可是就是說我們因為同時必須考慮很多因素不過沒關係就是說在這個其實從去年到現在我們在這個巴士量表的部分已經做了多元認定的改革然後這部分已經有3.2萬人在使用而且它也跟巴士量表幾乎是但是新的政府我認為說"},{"start":11755.625,"end":11778.754,"text":"新人新氣象我希望大家這麼個看法你們應該要去改革部長除季總數公佈113年1到4月消費者物價指數平均較上年的同期漲了2.24%勞工在抱怨說薪資漲幅跟不上物價的上漲"},{"start":11780.175,"end":11795.571,"text":"同樣的問題我問過前部長許明春那現在我來詢問新政府的態度依法最低工資的審議討論將在每年的第三季進行那我請問勞動部何部長你認為何時最低工資會超過三萬塊"},{"start":11798.612,"end":11815.129,"text":"何時?委員報告我們最低工資今年是元年最低工資法通過後的最低工資元年那今年第三季我們會很快的來召開諮詢小組會議那高層有沒有指示會不會落在2026年地方選舉前來宣布調整會嗎?"},{"start":11818.892,"end":11834.577,"text":"委員我們每年都必須去審議最低工資的這個要不要調漲的問題對每年喔今年也會有做任何事情要積極不要好像都有政治目的才來推每年都會處理那個部長"},{"start":11835.777,"end":11862.582,"text":"因為根據勞動部113年1月底大專畢業生的勞動概況1、2年畢業生可工作人口差不多19萬人其中有參加勞保、工保、農保差不多合計也有13萬人但是也有6萬人沒有參加勞保、工保、農保換言之1、2年畢業生有31%的人沒有進入就業的市場"},{"start":11863.542,"end":11869.808,"text":"那我請問勞動部何部長這算不算是畢業就是失業的狀況當然是我們15到24歲19到24歲這個就業率確實稍微高一些7.8%左右"},{"start":11881.699,"end":11904.28,"text":"可是它有一個狀況就是說他們可能在嘗試中就是年輕人還在嘗試尋求社會福利及衛生環境委員會安排投資青年就業方案的第二期執行進度專案報告以利於外界了解到底青年就業問題到底有沒有改善我認為這很重要"},{"start":11904.961,"end":11926.028,"text":"其實有耶 有喔 對我們其實我們現在失業率是降低的青年失業率是降低的我希望說能夠朝著畢業就有工作那當然不可能百分之百啦但是不要畢業生有百分之三十一因為你有進入職場最起碼你有勞保工保農保最起碼"},{"start":11927.308,"end":11940.88,"text":"這三寶一定要有一個寶,但是要是沒有的話,達到百分之三十一的畢業生沒有這些寶,我認為說當然講一些好聽的話是沒有意義的啦。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝林德福委員。接下來我們請洪森漢委員質詢。"},{"start":11959.18,"end":11982.7,"text":"請何部長請部長你好下一張部長其實我們今天要來討論的這個議題齁我想當然跟所謂我們的移工跟看護工的政策有關齁但是其實大家都清楚知道其實這個議題的本質還是是一個照護政策的問題是"},{"start":11984.241,"end":11996.154,"text":"所以照理來說我認為今天在這邊要接受尋答的我認為應該是現在新任的衛福部的邱部長或者是他們至少應該要有次長來到現場因為這個命題的本質是照護問題"},{"start":12001.815,"end":12022.093,"text":"那所以我第一個我在看到這個題目的時候或者是我們剛剛看到去年選舉的時候大家有些討論的時候坦白說我自己是蠻擔憂的就是我們一方面看到了很多需要照顧的僱主在被照顧上面的需求確實也還有很多的需求沒有被滿足"},{"start":12023.376,"end":12052.705,"text":"可是大家現在想要直接的說那我們是不是就來開救福法那來擴大增加聘僱外籍看護工的這部分我自己很擔心會有一件事不見臨甚至會產生很多對我們原本長照政策的副作用的部分但我要先說我完全可以理解為什麼現在會有一些人覺得我產生照顧上面的需求沒被滿足我就想要開救福法"},{"start":12053.956,"end":12063.693,"text":"原因很簡單我覺得過去8年我們確實有犯了一個問題的錯誤我們把移工政策跟長照政策切得太開了"},{"start":12065.751,"end":12084.161,"text":"尤其是外籍看護工的部分他很重要的源頭是一個照護政策的部分可是我們過去真的把它切得太開了當我們過去切得這麼開的時候我們現在就很難怪有些人他會覺得說我照護需求沒被滿足所以我就想要開移工他不會去想到整體的"},{"start":12085.595,"end":12110.458,"text":"告知政策或長照政策部分。我自己覺得我們過去也有一些責任。坦白說這部分我們沒有辦法都推卸。但是當這個關口我們還是必須審慎的來檢視現在當下的政策的時候。部長我先問其實按照如果現在幾個一些委員的版本然後直接來開就業服務法第46條的話有沒有評估會對長照政策產生什麼影響?"},{"start":12112.778,"end":12136.109,"text":"呃 是啊 所以這個衛福部今天的報告也有表示啦因為裡面80開80歲這條線上面這一個有含亞健康亞健康的這一種高達他的潛在的可能移工需求數會53萬左右所以這是一個很龐大的數字那第一個你可能會對你如果引進這些移工啦齁那你當然你一定會對長照2.0或3.0會產生排擠啦"},{"start":12139.551,"end":12166.946,"text":"事實上一定會這樣的我自己認為我其實並不排斥任何政策的調整可是重點是這個政策調整的思維應該經過什麼樣的路徑其實以去年那時候十月的時候當然陳院長時代我們開了三項的這個多元的免金八字兩法評估的多元管道的部分這三項當時確實就我理解我自己辦公室有參與它其實有經過包括醫療團體對"},{"start":12168.587,"end":12192.083,"text":"包括照顧團體包括障礙者團體相對應的多元的利害相關其實都有參與後來定出來了一個這樣子的方向我認為效果好不好我們可以再檢討如果還可以做得更好的地方我覺得還可以再做一些調整跟微調我覺得都OK可是我覺得經過多元的利害相關者一個整體的評估而且經過量化的評估是重要的事情下一張"},{"start":12193.721,"end":12221.009,"text":"下一張我認為其實其中包括裡面有一個團體就是我們這個家庭照護者關懷總會一般稱為家總他其實有一個建議我覺得非常重要這建議是我們接下來在照護政策上各種的調整應該以調查為基礎來制定計劃與預算也就是要調查為基礎而不是大家憑空去想那我認為現在不管是尤其是當然衛福部我今天看到好像只有駐司長來"},{"start":12223.43,"end":12229.621,"text":"對 衛福部也好或者是那個勞動部也好我都覺得我們過去在這方面的基礎調查真的是不夠"},{"start":12231.385,"end":12256.952,"text":"我們其實有很大一群人他可能透過移工外籍移工來滿足他的照顧需求可是這些透過外籍移工滿足照顧需求的人他的主管機關變成是勞動部可是勞動部對於這些被照顧的人到底他的樣態是什麼他的需求是什麼我們其實是並不了解的這是一個很大的問題他的主管機關變你可是你對他的這些人其實並不了解"},{"start":12257.984,"end":12273.738,"text":"那有這麼一大塊他的需求我們並不真實掌握的狀況下面我們接下來要做各種的政策變動的時候其實都會有點像是蝦子在摸象所以我認為如果參考今天很多NGO專業NGO的討論來說的話我認為勞動部應該要跟衛福部好好討論針對現在他可能是靠"},{"start":12277.661,"end":12302.972,"text":"外籍看護工來滿足照護需求的這些人你怎麼對他的需求有一個清楚完整的甚至需要普查或者是類似的調查我覺得掌握這些事情以後我們才有辦法往下一個階段到底這裡面該怎麼連動討論來去處理主席再給我一分鐘的時間我下面一個問題是那個現在針對之前勞動部有規劃所謂外展看護服務室事辦計畫目前進度到哪裡"},{"start":12303.852,"end":12332.397,"text":"我們現在正在規劃中了是下半年就會實施不然我覺得這個計畫有一個重要的地方其實我也接到很多外籍看護工的僱主來陳情我覺得他們講的一個地方是有道理的其實我們現在外籍看護有很多的責任他的責任我們會用救福法綁在僱主身上可是在產業移工跟需要照顧的僱主之間其實有差別產業移工是拿這些外籍勞動力去賺錢的他綁更多的責任我覺得我們是同意的"},{"start":12332.957,"end":12349.873,"text":"但是有很多家庭看護工需要的這些僱主他其實比較像是一個消費者他沒有拿營利他沒有拿營利可是我們一樣在身上綁了很多僱主的責任我覺得怎麼讓這些僱主的責任一個是產業移工或者是外籍看護工之間的僱主責任要有一些區別"},{"start":12350.413,"end":12364.947,"text":"甚至國家政府應該要來協助這些這個家庭看護工需求的僱主承擔他們部分的責任我覺得很重要所以為什麼我會支持向外展看護的事辦計畫的原因那個有部分其實是讓政府"},{"start":12365.347,"end":12375.093,"text":"在承擔僱主的責任。我覺得這對僱主的負擔來說是有幫助的。我覺得我們應該往這個方向走。這個部長同意嗎?"},{"start":12375.093,"end":12387.021,"text":"那我覺得這個責任需求我希望勞發署或者是勞動部應該要來討論怎麼讓這個有盈利目的的跟沒有盈利目的的僱主之間他的責任有所區別。我覺得這還滿足一般人的需要。接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"},{"start":12399.936,"end":12425.121,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,請部長。部長好。在這一陣子,國內的這個腸病毒是持續在上升當中。那我們也看到這個腸病毒是創下十年來的新高。那我想請教就是說,我們現在這個勞工的一年有七天的家庭照顧假。"},{"start":12426.081,"end":12446.528,"text":"那你們有沒有特別去做一個統計就是在最近這幾年當中就是我們這個勞工請的這個家庭照顧假到底有多少人申請那是不是有的勞工要申請這個家庭照顧假有他的困難"},{"start":12447.369,"end":12472.701,"text":"你們有做這樣的一個統計嗎?你說請假上的困難嗎?委員就是他現在常病像你講剛剛常病毒每週大概100多班停課嘛。退伍每週大概3000到4000人有照顧需求啦。然後他可以請家庭照顧假啊可以運用試假或特休啦。因為可是老公請假他沒有通報我沒有辦法說完全掌握那麼仔細對。"},{"start":12474.702,"end":12485.294,"text":"所以沒有特別去針對這個勞工請家庭照顧假這樣的一個這個狀況去做一個統計目前沒有做這樣的統計目前沒有做這樣的統計那未來是不是"},{"start":12488.809,"end":12508.156,"text":"所以不需要對他也比較沒辦法掌握數據啦除非我去做民調吧或是做對因為他因為像大量解雇那個雇主要通報來的可是像這個他是不用是或是是對所以比較難掌握這樣比較難掌握那未來有沒有可能針對這一部分去做一個瞭解"},{"start":12509.676,"end":12513.337,"text":"老公要請家屬回家。接下來我想請教,因為我們今天有針對這個就業服務法還有勞基法做一個這個這個草案很多人提出來就是說我們這個巴士量表,確實我們在這個基層有"},{"start":12531.698,"end":12560.009,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":12560.627,"end":12575.318,"text":"外籍看護。會不會造成實際上有需求的人反而可能會有他的困難。所以我是請勞動部是不是可以針對這部分,你們來說明。未來,剛剛我有聽部長講就是說會有這個外展。"},{"start":12580.942,"end":12597.028,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件 及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一�"},{"start":12610.325,"end":12616.831,"text":"我們下半年就會開始試辦上路。下半年會開始試辦,那你會從哪一方面,你們會怎麼試辦?這個是不是可以在這邊先?就跟委員解釋,它是一個這樣的,就是說用NGO跟NGO合作,然後我們請NGO跟仲介合組一個team,然後他們我們會進行評選。"},{"start":12635.029,"end":12663.458,"text":"然後呢這個模式是這個勞工就是移工他是被這個這個仲介雇用可是他是統一雇用的然後他會針對案家的需求他會先讓因為有NGO的監督所以他可以對他進行照顧訓練等等這些技巧的訓練然後他會可以派到案家去跟媒合案家的需求那他是個自費市場那我如果說我家裡面有這個需求的話我要怎麼申請我要向誰申請"},{"start":12664.958,"end":12679.993,"text":"就是比較像那個NGO單位我們那個NGO單位到時候應該會很多啦就是比如說像我們現在長照體系裡面有很多NGO團體其實當然他們都會可以是潛在的對象對那其實他們都已經散佈在台灣各地方了"},{"start":12680.333,"end":12697.958,"text":"那你預計是這個下半年度你們就要開始試辦的話,那你們現在應該什麼NGO的這個一些組織跟你們有合作,你們應該目前都確定了嗎?目前都確定,所以各縣市它分布的狀況是怎樣?"},{"start":12699.739,"end":12714.036,"text":"我們現在是先選一兩個縣市來試辦啦沒有辦法因為也要總要先試辦看效果好不好我們再大幅度的來推廣滾動式修正那你們試辦你說一兩個縣市目前下半年度要試辦那一兩個縣市是哪一兩個縣市"},{"start":12717.841,"end":12742.386,"text":"委員我這個部分我可不可以找一個比較我看甚至我們可以來委員會做專案報告給我一點時間因為我們這個是必須要有完整的來報告比較好啦你說哪些縣市或哪些團體這些都比較是屬於我們現在還在規劃中的東西那現在就貿然跟您報告對我想也不是很妥當"},{"start":12743.186,"end":12765.408,"text":"那可不可以給我一點時間?那其實我也擔心的就是說因為你剛剛跟我講說下半年度要試辦嘛那應該整個計畫應該也逐漸有一個成型了嘛對啊所以我才會問說那你們未來因為下半年度現在已經五月中了嘛五月底了對那即將就邁入第六"},{"start":12766.229,"end":12792.12,"text":"獲得6月,下半年度應該就是下半年度的開始。我是希望因為地方民眾有這樣的一個需求,當然說我希望你們推出來的這個方式應該是讓民眾申請也方便,有他的可敬性,方便整個流程或者是文件的"},{"start":12793.58,"end":12794.321,"text":" bicyclia Chan"},{"start":12810.777,"end":12826.156,"text":"那我覺得開巴士量表還比這個還簡單的話,那就失去它原本的這個美意。我要釐清一下齁,這個就是處理非巴士量表的部分啦。它是佛健康跟亞健康族群的,它是沒失能的。"},{"start":12827.036,"end":12841.604,"text":"施能那一塊就是我們今天在講的這個修法巴士量表這一塊我會新增我們已經有三個多年認定對不對那麼其實我們當然那禮拜三我們還要逐條嗎那麼其實我們可以再增加項目啦"},{"start":12842.284,"end":12848.85,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":12865.223,"end":12887.563,"text":"家庭照顧假那我在上禮拜我有特別提到就是說有關這個照顧留職停薪是不是未來有可能朝著這個方向就是說比照這個育嬰育嬰留庭的這樣的一個方式不知道有沒有可能是朝著這個方向去謝謝委員支持我確實有這個想法然後當然這部分可是這部分又牽涉到"},{"start":12888.684,"end":12917.675,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 要不要給新等等這些規劃要需要一點時間好不好對是是我們會來規劃預計預計什麼時候總是你們要規劃要給一個期程吧對我我盡快來規劃然後對其實已經在開始在在思考這些了對那麽未來你你剛講的我們我們的這個呃有更多元的好這個方式對那其實如果說呃可能兩三個月也許"},{"start":12917.995,"end":12924.178,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":12939.604,"end":12965.364,"text":"對,我們希望能夠讓婦女能夠更多的,因為有的企業她會,有的女性啦,就是因為要照顧嘛,她就不敢出去工作。那如果有照顧流行這種來輔助的話,maybe她的那個出外工作的意願會比較高,我們可以因此更提升婦女的就業率這樣子,對。好,那我希望說這個部分是不是也要一併,也一併要去盡速進來的規劃。"},{"start":12967.305,"end":12982.93,"text":"楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人"},{"start":12995.657,"end":13000.481,"text":"您的看法呢?委員我非常肯定支持您的提案的精神那麼是不是說我們這一個因為目前現行我剛才解釋過已經有針對巴士量表也是因為您的這一個"},{"start":13022.957,"end":13042.608,"text":"您們提案的這個主張所以我們其實在去年10月就已經新增三項多元認定只是增加寬寬一點點但是我們發覺到目前為止之所以會提案提出這個問題就是社會面向它是有需要的它迫切需要在這樣的情況之下我們實質來討論我們大概在2025年會進入到這個高齡人口應該會超過20%"},{"start":13049.292,"end":13077.524,"text":"二十八呢是等於在全世界裡頭是超高齡化的社會那國安會也預估在八年後我們會有超過一百一十八萬私人的人口需要照顧所以面對兩邊燒面對家庭的人口它是越來越少所以換句話說平均年齡會越來越大的這個趨勢那家屬跟病患所需要聘請看護的需求它會增加"},{"start":13078.104,"end":13098.473,"text":"而且長期照護的費用更是沉重的經濟負擔那所以呢到目前為止包括了財政部也特別將長照的這一塊可以納入寬免額逐年再增加它的寬免額這是整個國家橫向的部會當中每一個部分大家一直在努力協助這些家庭"},{"start":13099.093,"end":13115.556,"text":"那所以之所以本席提出了第46條第四項的部分呢就是僱主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者的資格條件這個是影響到很多的家庭真正需要的他請不到"},{"start":13116.337,"end":13136.117,"text":"哇 這個很傷痛腦筋 這個影響到整個社會的勞動力很多甚至我乾脆我就放棄工作我就自己來照顧這樣整個是一個惡性循環所以政府有條件而且有義務有責任要好好的來照顧這些所以我們提供了一個也就是年滿80歲以上得免金醫療機構之"},{"start":13140.221,"end":13168.459,"text":"專業評估也就是所謂的巴士量表我希望部長你剛才在回答當中本席都有聽到你要開了很多的這個指向更寬廣的納進來但是你剛才包括的跟NGO團體那也只是要示範找一兩個團體來示範那這個緩不及急本席不反對你去示範但是你要嚴肅的去考慮社會的面向的確需要的時候那整個"},{"start":13169.54,"end":13172.563,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 條件 條件 條件 條件 條件"},{"start":13190.138,"end":13211.172,"text":"大概77萬左右,但是失聯的8萬5,那本席認為還不止這個數字,這是顯性的,隱性的還沒出來。那當然你在2023年的時候你查處了2萬7的失聯移工,雖然說成效是歷年最佳,但是跟實際上聯繫不上的還有四分之三。"},{"start":13211.792,"end":13216.819,"text":"所以這個數字我希望說我們針對問題來討論針對問題來討論所以在這樣的一個情況之下黑工的問題相對的越來越普遍甚至我們看到有新南向產學的專班"},{"start":13229.796,"end":13247.213,"text":"他來的時候他的工作時間比他學的還要多那這個是不對的一個行為所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教你身為部長你要怎麼樣避免這個失聯持續惡化請教所以委員這失聯的原因有非常多"},{"start":13249.774,"end":13277.228,"text":"反正結果論就是失聯那你要怎麼樣從結果論去找出你的方案讓他不失聯其實主要這個合理的勞動條件還蠻重要的憑良心講尤其失聯裡面大眾就是看護工啦你看護工就他就逃跑可能就去農場或者是去很就像我們中南部很民間幾乎都是對這個是本期欣賞你直白的部分但是你已經知道目前的狀態"},{"start":13278.709,"end":13306.027,"text":"那你應該要去研擬要怎麼樣你身為一個部長你應該大膽的提出建言讓政府聽到而且是執行之民眾要的是結果論我把這個功課給你你好好地去研議好不好我也希望聽到答案我不希望只有聽到一些政治話術對社會沒幫助的最後一個議題本席要跟你討論5月23號你提出的工作重點之一"},{"start":13309.99,"end":13329.688,"text":"這六個字聽起來很美耶但是在美的過程你要怎麼樣落實本席請教我們在僱主、營善、友善、職場、育兒環境本席非常重視教育育兒環境的這一環特別提出這一環你要怎麼做"},{"start":13330.268,"end":13358.984,"text":"因為你所提出的雙就業雙照顧你要促進工作跟家庭的一個平衡那你勞動部研議的示範方案跟獎勵措施你要找出受僱者可以兼顧工作與家庭這樣子的可行性方案跟彈性的工作方式所以本席要請教你你要怎麼樣落實特別在照顧留職停薪的這一環你要怎麼研議"},{"start":13359.884,"end":13374.501,"text":"因為我們要怎麼樣讓女性解開家庭的照顧責任的這個束縛這一點非常重要你怎麼做好謝謝委員支持我照顧劉婷的構想對啊你怎麼做其實這是一個新的想法你怎麼做你預計要怎麼做"},{"start":13374.841,"end":13404.181,"text":"目前我正在規劃中我容我找時間來跟您報告因為女性留職提薪之後在回屋職場不到五成很浪費這些都是人才都是國家的勞動力所以針對你所提出的雙就業雙照顧你要怎麼樣能夠替我們女性解開家庭照顧責任的束縛讓我們的勞動力可以加強這個是你非常重要的課題你研議好"},{"start":13405.441,"end":13406.801,"text":"謝謝主席請問部長何部長請部長"},{"start":13437.189,"end":13464.466,"text":"請我們長期照顧時事長。來,部長。司長,今天審議的這個就業服務法,那其中有一個重點就是巴士量表。你知道巴士量表在一屆還有另外一個名稱嗎?是什麼名字?請示委員。部長,巴士量表又被稱為功德量表。你知道原因嗎?"},{"start":13465.814,"end":13491.639,"text":"嗯...是不知道對不對因為醫師開巴士量表是沒有一毛錢可以拿然後這裡這裡有寫啊沒開要被揍沒過會被揍開的出事要被拘提然後去你的巴士量表很多醫師恨透了這個功德量表這是一個醫師在在他的這個FB上面表達的態度喔那我們也看一下影片好了好不好等一下"},{"start":13501.82,"end":13515.643,"text":"好我們看一下這個影片這就是這個發射量表他沒有開成然後家屬很不滿然後就被揍這樣所以"},{"start":13528.154,"end":13543.89,"text":"部長你知道一屆除了這個健保點值被壓榨很不爽之外另外一件事就是這個巴士量表啦那請教部長你認不認為放寬這個80歲以上的被看護者以及70到79歲患有癌症二期以上的國人可以免巴士量表是可以解決這樣的狀況"},{"start":13545.646,"end":13565.122,"text":"委員我剛剛都已經強調就是我非常能夠支持這樣子的提案的精神啦對那所以我們在去年提出三個多元認定就是也是要幫忙解決這個巴士量表的困境那其實現在用多元認定的齁跟巴士量表比例已經一半一半了"},{"start":13566.042,"end":13579.361,"text":"有大量減低巴氏量表的使用啦我相信醫界可能對這個應該是會有點感同所以你還是不認同就是說希望可以就是直接放寬這80歲以上和這70到79歲的可以免巴氏量表的這個"},{"start":13580.843,"end":13605.646,"text":"呃 不是說不認同啦 而是說 主要是要考量80歲以上 這個界限 是全放齁 裡面有那個 你是說那個有癌症二期的嗎對 部長 市長 是最重要的是其實這兩項政策的民意支持度都是極高喔 尤其這兩種族群背後的家庭極度需要這個免罰式量表 然後尤其有許多家庭成員也因此要"},{"start":13606.627,"end":13615.296,"text":"必須要放棄工作或者是有許多的增加許多的負擔所以我覺得開放這個免貧才是真正的做功德不是嗎"},{"start":13616.395,"end":13637.213,"text":"對,其實我們可以來討論,就是那個多元認定也是免憑。那我們如果再多一些放寬的條件,我想在禮拜三主條我們可以來做一些討論好不好。是,是。對,部長,因為我也要再次的強調,這真的很需要。所以,你們勞動部自己在106年有做一個統計,每年有13萬人因為照顧要離職。"},{"start":13639.194,"end":13667.517,"text":"並且去年5月的主計總署也有統計這個25到64歲的未就業者有286.5萬人那其中因為照顧65歲以上家人無法工作者有5.25%那這個就是顯示離職人數每年大概有快15萬人所以部長我想降低照顧離職人數是勞動部跟衛福部都必須去加強跟努力的方向這樣才能夠讓我們勞動力可以釋放對不對但是"},{"start":13668.217,"end":13690.096,"text":"我覺得看到今天的報告真的是還沒有看到你們想要努力的作為啦因為你說要禮拜三再好好的討論可是我覺得沒有更積極的作為因為你們今天的說明是非常簡陋喔其實只有簡單的四行字那重點就是說勞動部要跟衛福部等跨部會還有專科醫學會學者專家跟相關團體充分討論"},{"start":13691.917,"end":13707.052,"text":"那這部分我當然是很認同要充分的討論喔但是 行政部長因為去年衛福部跟勞動部針對這些族群免巴適量表的議題其實在上一年的9月12號共同召開諮詢會議那這9月12號其實有距離在野黨當時的總統候選人在8月29號提出這項政見中"},{"start":13713.198,"end":13735.336,"text":"中間只有隔了兩個星期也就是隔了14天喔那也就是說14天其實你們就可以跨部會動起來但是現在這個法案已經一讀通過多久了我覺得看不到你們的效率看不到你們想要改善這件事情的積極度那我想是因為過去上一年是有選舉的壓力嗎所以因為有選舉壓力大家才會這麼積極嗎"},{"start":13738.284,"end":13765.99,"text":"沒有委員其實這個法案今天才開始這個排審啊但是之前一讀一讀已經通過了嘛對不對一讀所以才進來委員會啊一讀並沒有討論啊是今天委員會才開始審查討論你知道這個事情其實已經有一段時間了那當然我想要講的是部長你520才上任啦我剛剛要表達就是你上任其實到現在一個星期我也沒有要怪你的意思但是的確不能怪你喔可是我想要表達的事情是我們在上一年看到這個14天的這樣的效能和效率"},{"start":13767.21,"end":13782.238,"text":"接下來我們再真的認真在討論這件事情可不可以拜託你們跨部會的效能動起來有有有當然我們針對今天委員的審查以及禮拜三的主條我們是有跨部會在已經積極討論的那我們是可以具體提出一些建議啦對"},{"start":13783.379,"end":13805.647,"text":"好,因為我們今天看到你們的報告是感覺到很多的理由是像是在敷衍和推遲所以本席在這裡對本席在這裡就是要訴求請你們盡速的動起來真的把這個福國立民的法案推動過去或是放寬更多讓這些需要被照顧的人以及這些需要的家庭真的可以充分獲利好不好好,謝謝"},{"start":13807.574,"end":13829.795,"text":"那部長第二個是再來就是有關延長產產價的部分對不對那你們自己的報告都寫明哦認為目前產價看到這上面你們的報告嗎不是產價8週已經足夠者將近44%那認為產價週數不足夠者有56%基本上也就是超過半數以上都認為產價不夠"},{"start":13831.502,"end":13846.776,"text":"而且請教部長你知道受調查的母體都是最近一年有申請產假的這個產假者很多都是新手媽媽嗎?是對部長有生育經驗的媽媽過半數都認為這個產假不足這是很精準的母體為何不能夠增加產假的天數?"},{"start":13848.421,"end":13872.024,"text":"委員就是說不是不能增加而是我們也很希望增加可是真的是要考慮實務上會不會增加女性的反而隱形的就業再就業歧視啦是不是有這個真的是要考慮然後牢固雙方的意願齁牢固雙方的那個然後還有包括說要做的話就要"},{"start":13872.745,"end":13877.047,"text":"對,所以你們報告裡面有說女性針對這個部分因為需求不宜所以你們就是要考量嘛,對不對?是。好,那我覺得...而且那個委員跟委員報告,勞基法是一個很硬的法啦。你要是現在給他延長這種快狀的從8週到12週,他是怎樣呢?他一請他就不能回來。"},{"start":13897.896,"end":13920.128,"text":"他回來都不行他一定要12週都全部修完所以反而會造成那個部長我告訴你因為你們現在大多數你們從民調就看到民意上面56%認為不足好所以民意是希望延長那你們就算你覺得12週太長或至少應該也要可以討論嘛到底是多久是夠的那現在感覺都不討論你就留下一句說這個要研議"},{"start":13921.189,"end":13945.071,"text":"建議評估考量。這個是我覺得不是一個合理還負責的做法。我們可以來再更積極的評估好不好。好。對。部長而且你報告裡面還有提到一個我覺得很扯的啦。就是你剛剛有提到這個所謂的影響到在就業的這個女性的一些歧視的問題喔。你在報告裡面有提到對於事業單位的人力調度這上面及運作人有負擔是否間接影響僱用"},{"start":13947.053,"end":13967.706,"text":"獄靈女性之意願應該一併考量。我覺得這句話在勞動部的立場很奇怪,感覺很像是站在資方的立場幫資方講話,然後就說他這樣子就會被歧視。所以你們這句話的潛台詞不就是僱主不會僱用懷孕女性,而且可能因為這樣子會不想要僱用女性。"},{"start":13969.033,"end":13985.995,"text":"所以我覺得這句話很奇怪也充滿歧視我覺得這樣不太合適因為你這樣的意思就是按照你們這樣的邏輯就是任何增加勞工權益的政策都會增加資方的負擔可能會讓他們歧視或是讓他們不想要聘請這個勞工所以不要修這個法"},{"start":13986.616,"end":14002.148,"text":"我覺得這個邏輯我真的很想要跟部長說你們要回去好好檢討你的報告為什麼這樣寫因為你這個邏輯你知道大家在外面會怎麼看嗎就勞動部你應該站在勞工的權益上面幫他增加權益但是你用這個說法是不是要改名叫做自動部"},{"start":14003.109,"end":14022.327,"text":"就是你的講法完全的有問題我們以後要修改這種用語我們以後應該要修改這個用語你用這個角度去思考你就不用想說任何勞工權益要增加啦倒不是說不思考而是說對就是說"},{"start":14024.728,"end":14043.993,"text":"我們主要是針對那個小微企業啦,因為小微企業是這樣,他喔,好端有鹹貢精啦,常常僱主本身也是勞工啦,所以他的這種僱傭形態跟那種我們想像的那種其實是有差距的,不過沒關係,我覺得你的建議很好,我們以後要調整這樣子的用語好不好,對。"},{"start":14044.713,"end":14067.828,"text":"用語之外最主要是針對這個產價的部分你們應該也是要充分的去演繹說現在不足的部分你自己都做了這麼精準的民調了這麼精準的調查了好好好是謝謝委員提醒好謝謝廖偉翔委員接下來我們請鄭振淺、鄭日前、鄭振淺委員不在謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":14084.087,"end":14085.268,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":14395.182,"end":14419.129,"text":"好我們繼續開會接下來我們請何欣淳何欣淳何欣李燕秀呢那要不要讓劉建國委員先講李燕秀委員還沒來是不是他們已經換了阿仁勒"},{"start":14429.945,"end":14431.226,"text":"何新淳委員不在,接下來我們先請劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":14453.924,"end":14477.394,"text":"好 謝謝主席也特別感謝主席今天特別排這個案就是80歲以上免這個巴士量表的評估我想基本上這個是當然也是要支持但是免巴士量表的評估這個界限在80歲以上我覺得這個是要被討論的因為為什麼當時要訂這個巴士量表"},{"start":14482.732,"end":14489.978,"text":"這個公部門要講清楚那現在把它拿掉第一個要把它拿掉免評估第二個80歲以上這個界限為什麼這麼晃"},{"start":14494.741,"end":14519.319,"text":"因為我要謝謝昭偉特別排這個案但是昭偉特別提到台灣人的平均餘命應該是70多到80幾那這個女性的功德做得比較多所以女性都活得比男性久一點長壽一點所以男性還不及到80歲那這樣有沒有歧視男性 對不對"},{"start":14520.961,"end":14548.5,"text":"這個大家討論啦,我就希望大家來把這個事情要慎重的來面對那我現在要提到就是說公部門有沒有去說明清楚當時為什麼要訂這個巴士量表透過醫師的評估然後還有加上任何什麼樣的條件他才可以來提出申請這個外籍的看護工我今天完全沒有聽到那是不是要衛福部先來做一個說明啊現在這個取消掉"},{"start":14549.989,"end":14552.216,"text":"你們的看法是什麼?反而勞動部應該是在第二個階段再來談"},{"start":14560.838,"end":14589.625,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我們有機會把這件事情可以說清楚那確實就陳委員剛剛提的年齡到底要怎麼切那為什麼過往會有一些專業的這個評估那其實回過頭來就是看聘請家戶裡面聘請外籍家庭看護工到底聘進來是要做什麼事情所以在我們的看法是需要這個長輩需要有照顧的需求"},{"start":14590.325,"end":14595.848,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14612.375,"end":14639.309,"text":"他基本上來判定他是有完全依賴嚴重依賴那這個時候就是我們也參考了這個國際的這樣的一個通用的量表就是大家俗稱的巴士量吧可是他事實上他是我們這整個由醫療團隊去執行的一個副表他真正的表是所謂的他要由醫療團隊來處理就叫病證病證及失能診斷證明"},{"start":14641.05,"end":14644.437,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 及施能診斷證明 。」"},{"start":14653.444,"end":14681.453,"text":"一些疾病有列了一二十項的疾病由疾病的這個變化出來需要的密集照顧的來判定所以基本上才會由交給醫療團隊而且過往比較嚴的是要公告就是由勞動部這邊我們提供的醫院名單給勞動部公告可是我們其實已經在這個之前就已經開放到診所也可以"},{"start":14681.873,"end":14686.656,"text":"所以現階段開放出來可以來執行這個所謂的病證及這個虛能診斷證明的醫療團隊醫療院所是235家診所是625家"},{"start":14711.853,"end":14733.646,"text":"第二個還要有病證及私人診斷書那個是一個只有醫生能做的疾病診斷書所以今天如果把巴士量表拿掉不需要巴士量表他是不是還要有病證及私人診斷證明書才可以提出外籍考慮申請巴士量表是副表真正的是那個診斷書判定是那個診斷書"},{"start":14736.368,"end":14763.429,"text":"啊所以今天不能讓外界感覺到我們把巴斯亮表整個免評估取消掉之後那需求者他就可以馬上去申請外籍客戶工嗎?我是可以這麼講嗎?就這部分可能就是要看那個法規的文字是怎麼了?你怎麼可以打我這種問題?因為整個呢?你是主管機關法規的文字怎麼說你現在講清楚啊你今天來備選你應該就準備好了啊"},{"start":14766.083,"end":14794.434,"text":"今天召委排這個案就很清楚明確的就80歲以上要免這個巴斯量表的評估讓需求者不管他是健康也健康他都可以提出外籍看護工的申請喔最主要是要做這件事情非常明確嘛那如果今天巴斯量表拿掉免評估之後你必須還有疾病及私人相關的診斷證明才可以提出外籍看護工的申請"},{"start":14795.234,"end":14824.111,"text":"這你必須要講清楚啊。跟委員報告因為現在各委員提出的版本都是把醫療的專業評估拿掉而不是拿掉巴氏量表但是今天的主題是要講這個相關委員的版本也要把這個診斷證明私人疾病的診斷證明拿掉這是另外一回事但是外界會感覺當時在選舉的過程裡面講的是80歲以上的這些需求者為什麼還要巴氏量表的評估"},{"start":14824.771,"end":14842.261,"text":"所以今天召委才排這個案,我講這樣應該沒有錯了。對不對?那如果今天把報射量表的評估拿掉了,還有所謂的疾病及失能的診斷證明,你才可以去申請外籍看護工。這個你公部門要講得非常清楚啊。不是現在委員提的版本怎麼樣怎麼樣啊,還沒有審啊,還不曉得啊。"},{"start":14845.145,"end":14847.966,"text":"市長,我剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛只是在強調現況。"},{"start":14862.97,"end":14882.521,"text":"真正專業評估醫療團的專業評估做的是這個病症暨失能診斷證明書。對嘛,所以你今天要處理的就會變成說不只把80量表的評估拿掉免評,叫免評嘛對不對。你是不是連疾病及相關的失能證明同步功要拿掉。對。今天是變成要處理到這個呢,這個層次的喔。好,那問題來了,那為什麼是80歲以上?"},{"start":14888.095,"end":14908.233,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛才提那個年齡應該不是一個主要考量的而是要考量他的照顧需求對所以這個我們要跟外界講清楚嘛不然到時候我們這些委員大家在共同集思廣益的情況之下要為人民謀取更便利的請到外籍看護工結果我們搞不清楚"},{"start":14910.003,"end":14938.111,"text":"只針對80歲以上我剛剛講的這是常委提供的數據嘛臺灣人平均餘命女性就大過於男性男性就不及到80歲那所有這些男性都不用請了都不用請了嘛然後再來衛福部的相關資料在網站上公告是80歲以上的私人佔比是32.68啦故有照顧的需求者是29萬29萬喔那現在我們有效聘僱的外籍看護士"},{"start":14939.198,"end":14955.17,"text":"家庭看護工是18萬,這18萬是不含機構再加2萬,現在就已經有照顧需求者就已經不足9萬了喔!依照務部提供的資料已經不足9萬了,80歲以上喔!那你現在全部開放之後會變成怎麼樣?變成用最高的推估啦!"},{"start":14962.065,"end":14970.87,"text":"就是移工人數可能要高達全原有的需求是29萬到這個等於88.7萬扣掉29萬換算加起來要將近要到72萬左右要到72萬左右好那你現在又有讓這些重症的還有輕度的"},{"start":14987.031,"end":15008.789,"text":"啊,這些失智症的病患也可以來申請外籍看護工嘛,對不對?好,那個表格秀出來給大家看嘛。這些,這些不需要80歲以上吧?不需要嘛。這些目前為止有申請外籍看護工的占比是多少?人數是多少?你們應該有,手上都有資料嘛。"},{"start":15009.827,"end":15034.49,"text":"我現在是要跟大家講說供給跟需求我們要講清楚嘛我們要理解清楚嘛齁因為剛剛有很多委員也特別提到這個方向大家來努力沒有錯啦但是會產生什麼樣的效果這效果是好的效果還是反效果會不會再排擠到這些需求者像你看你這些等級一到十二平衡機制障礙啦智能障礙啦植物人啦失智症"},{"start":15035.393,"end":15053.302,"text":"這些到底用的外籍看護工的比例多少?你的維護部就有辦法精算出目前有效聘外籍看護工80歲以上的是18萬家庭看護工了。機構是將近2萬嘛。就20萬嘛。但是80歲以上的需求就已經達到了29萬嘛。就已經落差在9萬的這個數額了喔。你一年可以引進多少的外籍看護工進來?一年。"},{"start":15066.867,"end":15093.18,"text":"我們現在還跟印度簽MOU還線上簽的都還沒有確定那我現在跟各位表達就是說當這個需要的29萬到目前都還沒有到位還差了9萬的80歲以上那80歲以下剛剛也有國民黨委員特別提到70到79歲的這個癌症的病友嘛對不對還有你包含這些14項的這些"},{"start":15096.827,"end":15120.963,"text":"這些需求到底是多少?有沒有精算出來?我要表達說,當你把整個這個發射量表的評估拿掉但是你還需要再有一個病症及失能的診斷證明這是另外一個機制嘛,這個機制如果還是持續確保包含勞動部之前在去年10月三項的多元的這樣的一個放寬"},{"start":15123.92,"end":15133.571,"text":"那這樣林林總統加起來你有沒有一個很明確的數字讓我們知道這樣的供給跟需求會有什麼樣的結構性的大變化"},{"start":15135.072,"end":15154.554,"text":"會不會今天有委員在講說那到時候你公佈你去處理啊開放之後免評之後你去處理啊你自己去列優先順序當你列了優先順序重產的先重症的先八十歲以上的先八十歲以上的健康跟亞健康的排序是怎麼樣"},{"start":15155.41,"end":15179.107,"text":"可以很清楚跟我們說明嗎?如果你沒有辦法很清楚跟我們說明,那就會出大問題喔。我是外籍看護,我今天來到這個家庭裡面,我看到這一個是到上手的,是每天要灌食的,然後搬也搬不太動的,還要搬到洗澡的,我們現在的外籍看護工是可以自由選擇雇主的喔。我會不會馬上說我不來了?"},{"start":15183.835,"end":15196.36,"text":"幹了三天五天我就跑去跟仲介講說我要換僱主。勞動部你要不要很忙?要不要去督促?要不要去監督?為什麼一直換來換過去?一直換來換過去?換到最後我乾脆就逃跑了。輝華移工已經八萬五,應該是破九萬了啦。這事情會不會更嚴重?"},{"start":15209.56,"end":15229.207,"text":"我只是從幾個面向來提供給大家因為我沒有得到這樣的很明確的數字的時候我會覺得做這個事情基本上它不是不對但是會非常危險就是說前面的開放大家都拍手叫好我也支持啊但是後面產生出來的既然不是一個好效果是一個很嚴重的反效果"},{"start":15230.137,"end":15251.642,"text":"整個外籍看護在臺灣的流動的狀況不是缺了很多不是需要者有真正的進到這個家庭去做照護還是經常會發生這個外籍看護工一下子來到這個僱主一下子又換到了僱主平均做的時間不會超過一個月不會超過兩個月臺灣怎麼不會大亂所以我希望是在召委"},{"start":15257.111,"end":15276.711,"text":"今天是沒有針對法律的草案去修正還有一兩天的時間提供更精確的數據給我們所有委員做參考大家都是好意大家都希望朝向更便民的方式但是當這個人力的不足當外籍看護可以自由選擇僱主的時候"},{"start":15279.071,"end":15305.839,"text":"你真的要思考的非常多的面向,包含這些重症的,包含國民黨委員提到的70到79歲的這些人,你的優先順序到底要怎麼排?你不要排到最後全部都是那個健康的都可以請到,都做了很久。我們還說這個台灣給外籍看護工的職場環境非常優,結果重症的,結果真正需求者通通被排擠掉。"},{"start":15306.755,"end":15331.192,"text":"那你現在要修哪條法律說他不可以隨便更換僱主?可以這樣做嗎?有法律可以定成這樣嗎?沒有喔!違反人權喔!請深思!請思考!謝謝!接下來我們請張家俊、張家俊、張家俊委員不在,我們請李燕秀委員質詢。"},{"start":15338.541,"end":15360.939,"text":"謝謝 我請何部長好 請何部長很好謝謝部長 部長辛苦了因為我今天時間不是太長我就直接就我的問題問我們現在過去民進黨執政的八年你也都在部會當中我們都特別關注少子女化的問題之前許部長是女性 你又是女性"},{"start":15361.92,"end":15381.221,"text":"我希望在這一塊有多一點的琢磨特別是我們過去賴總統也好蔡總統也好我們都關注少子女化的問題但是我非常遺憾的就是說這一次賴清德賴總統在520的就職演說當中其實只有輕描淡寫到托育長照設宅的政策要延續但是"},{"start":15381.821,"end":15399.581,"text":"對於我們現在今年內政部公布10號公布的這個月公布的我們現在的死亡數事實上已經高於出生數就是說過去40個月都是如此所以我們整體台灣現在是生不如死"},{"start":15400.242,"end":15427.137,"text":"在臺灣是生不如死喔那但是我非常遺憾就是說看到賴總統他對於少子女化的問題他著墨比較多的就是在托嬰托育的部分對於真正生育的部分我們沒有著墨太多他在這個總統的這個就職報告當中對外子說前瞻未來競逐太空佈局全球但是對於我們人民生育率的部分其實沒有著墨太多"},{"start":15427.617,"end":15448.357,"text":"所以外界就對於我們現在臺灣整體少子女化的問題被簡化成脫鈾的政策我相信這個不是我們所要看到的其實身為一個政府還是要想辦法去思考我們下一代下下一代我們如何增加我們的勞動率否則的話我們社會福利政策負擔會非常的重那我們都知道"},{"start":15449.258,"end":15470.96,"text":"部長我長期有關注你也是女性我也是女性產假的部分我們到底要怎麼處理之前我問許部長他有一定的想法但是過去幾年他沒有機會往前再跨一步部長你對於我們剩下產假的延長在OECD國家我們產假現在的8週其實都是在落後當中產假部分的延長你有什麼看法"},{"start":15471.994,"end":15488.43,"text":"委員就是我很肯定就是大家對於這個產價延長的這樣子的你的看法你不用肯定我們你的看法我時間不多我當然我也期待說當然能夠這麼做可是就是說我們必須要審慎的來考慮這一"},{"start":15491.092,"end":15510.092,"text":"你的考慮你是要你在哪些階段要做哪些事情我才可以看到就是有往前進一步的跨你永遠在你的部會裡面考慮你沒有往前跨一步這個時間就沒有進程你到底有哪些挑戰哪些阻礙你也要讓外界知道否則我就覺得說你關在你部會裡面這件事情連努力都沒有努力"},{"start":15510.512,"end":15525.695,"text":"我們必須要對少子女化的政策對外有一個交代包括外界婦女想要結婚產假的部分到底台灣的8週有沒有機會延長到10週、12週甚至14週然後產假的公共化政策"},{"start":15526.874,"end":15547.182,"text":"你的態度想法是什麼我覺得這幾年從許部長到我不知道你會不會怎麼做但是都在原地踏步對外界我們也沒有一個公聽會會遇到哪些挑戰我都沒有看到任何的數據資料出來所以我都會覺得你們沒有努力那賴總統到底支不支持這件事情"},{"start":15548.905,"end":15571.604,"text":"我們未來努力的方向要不要持續地做?我們可以來評估啦,積極來評估好不好,委員?就是說,主要是...過去有評估了許部長擔任幾年?四年還是五年?至少七年吧?七年吧?那你要怎麼評估?評估幾年?你的手段要多久?你的策略工具要多久?你的工具在哪裡?策略在哪裡?你要找哪些人來討論?"},{"start":15572.965,"end":15600.279,"text":"我至少要對外界我可以看得到嘛你至少產業界來開或產官學界來開我至少看到你有在動嘛否則你就是在裡面評估評估我就不要動不要動不要動所以我們現在產價八周是民國工廠法那時候民國18年有的八周到現在都已經都已經100年前的政策18年那時候18年前民國18年我們就是產價八周我們現在還在八周欸"},{"start":15601.5,"end":15629.035,"text":"部長委員其實我剛剛有說明我們要包括安胎假30天半薪產檢假一週有薪這個都過去但是這顯然部長聽我講因為時間已經到了就是外界對於這些事這就是說我覺得還是要往前跨一步就是說包括在產假的檢查現在只有7天我們公共我們的那個公費的檢查總共有14次所以無論是"},{"start":15630.316,"end":15633.419,"text":"公費檢查現在就有14天我覺得這個部分我希望你仔細的去思考還有包括今天我們討論到很多的就是巴士量表放寬的部分我覺得"},{"start":15655.836,"end":15671.156,"text":"每一個面向其實都要去思考就是說國人有這樣的需求特別是我們現在高齡化長照的需求2.0的需求也會越來越多怎麼樣面面俱到面面兼顧讓突然家庭有這個需求的時候"},{"start":15672.418,"end":15695.874,"text":"不要找不到人而且變成要請假或變成我要從職場上我先暫時退出我想這不是你我需要的他不會是指是八十歲以上的問題他可能家中臨時有一個七十幾歲或六十幾歲的長輩突然面臨了突然生病有家裡有這個需求那怎麼去處理我覺得既然我們要修這個法我覺得就要把各式各樣的狀況考慮得更周全這才是"},{"start":15699.336,"end":15726.09,"text":"我覺得我們在長照部分我覺得都要都可以面面俱到的地方好不好那我的產價少子女化的部分我不希望只有賴清德總統停留在這個托育的政策上面我覺得應該是從解決更友善的這個生產環境開始去做處理好不好我期待看到你有一個比較完整的說明政策出來還有期程到底要怎麼做好不好謝謝部長"},{"start":15733.196,"end":15753.054,"text":"蔡易瑜本日會議詢答全部結束委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、邱若驊所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在作以下決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者"},{"start":15753.75,"end":15767.307,"text":"請相關機關於兩周內以書面答覆委員令要求其限則從其鎖定本日會議到此結束星期三早上九時三十分繼續審查現在休息"},{"start":15805.469,"end":15805.947,"text":"〔鈴響聲〕"}]}},{"id":"15951","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15951","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd4197e6bbfb965dc7dbed544b35c5f3ca3be8d109af184be4dd477df6a4eaebb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-27","start_time":"2024-05-27T08:31:05+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:35:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":18235,"委員發言時間":"08:31:05 - 13:35:00","影片長度":"05:03:55","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":991.9097187500001,"end":991.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":991.97721875,"end":991.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":992.0109687500001,"end":992.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1741.68284375,"end":1750.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1752.1453437500002,"end":1752.4490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1754.64284375,"end":1765.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1765.4934687500001,"end":1769.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1769.4422187500002,"end":1771.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1772.2265937500001,"end":1775.6859687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1775.9053437500002,"end":1794.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1795.2947187500001,"end":1795.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1795.7165937500001,"end":1801.0997187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1801.2853437500003,"end":1810.2290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1811.86596875,"end":1816.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1817.4347187500002,"end":1819.8140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1820.2190937500002,"end":1824.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1826.7497187500003,"end":1828.7915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1830.1922187500002,"end":1832.0653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1833.80346875,"end":1840.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1843.4222187500002,"end":1845.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1848.72096875,"end":1850.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1850.7628437500002,"end":1852.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1855.2515937500002,"end":1858.3565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1860.8878437500002,"end":1864.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1867.7897187500002,"end":1870.8947187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1873.32471875,"end":1876.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1878.6403437500003,"end":1882.6734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1884.7322187500001,"end":1887.0103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1888.5290937500001,"end":1891.3978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1893.6590937500002,"end":1896.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1898.6540937500001,"end":1901.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1904.2903437500001,"end":1906.8384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1908.89721875,"end":1911.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1914.0609687500003,"end":1917.5372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1920.9628437500003,"end":1924.2872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1926.5822187500003,"end":1928.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1928.4047187500003,"end":1930.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1934.3784687500001,"end":1937.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1938.1753437500001,"end":1940.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1943.7947187500001,"end":1956.3665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1971.46971875,"end":1981.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1981.6622187500002,"end":1985.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1985.6447187500003,"end":1989.4584687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1989.8634687500003,"end":1990.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1990.9940937500003,"end":2001.8109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2002.1822187500002,"end":2007.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2009.3203437500001,"end":2014.2815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2014.8215937500001,"end":2016.9815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2017.0153437500003,"end":2017.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2017.2178437500002,"end":2018.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2019.3103437500001,"end":2020.1878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2020.55909375,"end":2029.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2029.5197187500003,"end":2038.1765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2038.8009687500003,"end":2041.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2041.6190937500003,"end":2058.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2059.4559687500005,"end":2059.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2061.36284375,"end":2074.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2075.75721875,"end":2076.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2076.8203437500006,"end":2078.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2078.76096875,"end":2082.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2083.23284375,"end":2099.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2100.05721875,"end":2102.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2103.01034375,"end":2104.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2104.91721875,"end":2108.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2108.8659687500003,"end":2113.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2113.9959687500004,"end":2115.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2115.4303437500002,"end":2117.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2117.7422187500006,"end":2121.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2121.92721875,"end":2125.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2125.8084687500004,"end":2139.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2139.6122187500005,"end":2146.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2147.4590937500006,"end":2152.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2153.12909375,"end":2161.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2161.8028437500006,"end":2174.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2174.89784375,"end":2187.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2189.95034375,"end":2196.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2197.2234687500004,"end":2209.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2209.66034375,"end":2213.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2213.5584687500004,"end":2218.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2218.6209687500004,"end":2220.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2220.39284375,"end":2222.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2222.87346875,"end":2244.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2246.4140937500006,"end":2257.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2257.7878437500003,"end":2275.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2276.31659375,"end":2287.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2287.79159375,"end":2302.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2302.3884687500004,"end":2309.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2310.2859687500004,"end":2328.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2330.2997187500005,"end":2336.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2336.96534375,"end":2361.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2361.78846875,"end":2366.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2367.45846875,"end":2371.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2371.8122187500003,"end":2374.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2374.5965937500005,"end":2379.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2380.18221875,"end":2395.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2395.40346875,"end":2401.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2402.40659375,"end":2425.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2426.1159687500003,"end":2429.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2429.7947187500004,"end":2431.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2431.8028437500006,"end":2435.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2435.68409375,"end":2436.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2437.86096875,"end":2459.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2460.87846875,"end":2467.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2467.61159375,"end":2470.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2470.5984687500004,"end":2472.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2472.2859687500004,"end":2477.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2477.31471875,"end":2486.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2487.69284375,"end":2488.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2488.7559687500006,"end":2493.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2493.9197187500004,"end":2513.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2514.22034375,"end":2516.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2516.86971875,"end":2519.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2519.68784375,"end":2524.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2524.6153437500006,"end":2527.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2527.75409375,"end":2530.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2530.2684687500005,"end":2532.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2533.1034687500005,"end":2537.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2538.8240937500004,"end":2553.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2553.4715937500005,"end":2558.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2558.12909375,"end":2569.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2571.0215937500006,"end":2593.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2594.42721875,"end":2613.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2613.46221875,"end":2613.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2614.2215937500005,"end":2625.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2625.51096875,"end":2631.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2631.4509687500004,"end":2635.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2635.8722187500007,"end":2636.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2638.2684687500005,"end":2651.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2651.3465937500005,"end":2658.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2659.14284375,"end":2662.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2663.2097187500003,"end":2670.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2675.00534375,"end":2676.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2677.41846875,"end":2683.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2684.28659375,"end":2687.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2687.7965937500003,"end":2690.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2691.5428437500004,"end":2697.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2698.7315937500007,"end":2702.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2702.3259687500004,"end":2702.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2704.6715937500003,"end":2706.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2706.6797187500006,"end":2710.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2725.27596875,"end":2728.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2735.8565937500007,"end":2736.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2737.1053437500004,"end":2755.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2756.4440937500003,"end":2759.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2759.19471875,"end":2759.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2759.6334687500002,"end":2766.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2767.32846875,"end":2779.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2779.74846875,"end":2781.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2781.7734687500006,"end":2793.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2793.3834687500002,"end":2803.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2804.3015937500004,"end":2819.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2820.01221875,"end":2835.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2835.5203437500004,"end":2846.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2846.77596875,"end":2852.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2852.7159687500007,"end":2857.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2854.06596875,"end":2854.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2857.23846875,"end":2860.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2861.5753437500007,"end":2862.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2863.1953437500006,"end":2900.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2881.9940937500005,"end":2882.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2895.76409375,"end":2897.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2900.1347187500005,"end":2920.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2900.64096875,"end":2902.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2920.7390937500004,"end":2928.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2928.73784375,"end":2932.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2933.2097187500003,"end":2933.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2935.89284375,"end":2953.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2953.81409375,"end":2956.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2957.47596875,"end":2968.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2968.4784687500005,"end":2969.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2969.89596875,"end":2975.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2971.09409375,"end":2971.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2976.5615937500006,"end":2977.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2977.0340937500005,"end":2977.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2977.42221875,"end":2977.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2978.02971875,"end":2978.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2980.07159375,"end":2992.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2992.0528437500006,"end":2992.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2992.30596875,"end":3003.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2992.3397187500004,"end":2992.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3003.4434687500006,"end":3010.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3010.3115937500006,"end":3010.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3010.3622187500005,"end":3010.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3010.39596875,"end":3024.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3021.0778437500003,"end":3023.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3024.08159375,"end":3024.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3024.0984687500004,"end":3024.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3024.1153437500006,"end":3034.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3035.5059687500006,"end":3038.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3038.54346875,"end":3045.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3045.3778437500005,"end":3051.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3050.42346875,"end":3056.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3056.68409375,"end":3058.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3058.43909375,"end":3060.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3060.12659375,"end":3061.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3061.86471875,"end":3064.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3064.76721875,"end":3064.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3064.7840937500005,"end":3065.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3065.0878437500005,"end":3065.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3065.2565937500003,"end":3065.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3065.3915937500005,"end":3065.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3065.54346875,"end":3065.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3065.61096875,"end":3065.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3066.37034375,"end":3066.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3067.23096875,"end":3069.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3069.86346875,"end":3073.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3070.8084687500004,"end":3071.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3073.2890937500006,"end":3086.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3086.0634687500005,"end":3086.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3086.3503437500003,"end":3097.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3097.0153437500003,"end":3097.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3097.25159375,"end":3107.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3106.3809687500006,"end":3106.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3107.71409375,"end":3108.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3108.03471875,"end":3108.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":3112.5065937500003,"end":3117.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3130.5459687500006,"end":3131.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3131.76096875,"end":3132.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3132.9928437500002,"end":3133.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3140.4684687500003,"end":3140.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3140.4853437500005,"end":3140.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":3140.5359687500004,"end":3141.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3141.7509687500005,"end":3146.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3146.61096875,"end":3148.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3148.6865937500006,"end":3149.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3150.34034375,"end":3158.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3159.1490937500002,"end":3160.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3161.3934687500005,"end":3163.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3163.94159375,"end":3166.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3166.96221875,"end":3173.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3173.4590937500006,"end":3175.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3175.9734687500004,"end":3177.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3178.1334687500002,"end":3179.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3180.9684687500003,"end":3191.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3181.7784687500007,"end":3182.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3182.80784375,"end":3183.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3183.17909375,"end":3183.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3183.3309687500005,"end":3183.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3183.3478437500007,"end":3184.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3184.44471875,"end":3185.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3185.3222187500005,"end":3186.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3191.97096875,"end":3192.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3192.6628437500003,"end":3192.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3193.2872187500006,"end":3201.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3198.2315937500007,"end":3198.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3199.2272187500002,"end":3201.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3201.1847187500007,"end":3201.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3201.2353437500005,"end":3201.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3201.7078437500004,"end":3201.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3201.7753437500005,"end":3201.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3201.80909375,"end":3201.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3201.8934687500005,"end":3202.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3203.47971875,"end":3216.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3216.8278437500003,"end":3217.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3217.72221875,"end":3225.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3225.5353437500007,"end":3242.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3234.3272187500006,"end":3235.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3235.0528437500006,"end":3235.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3235.3903437500003,"end":3236.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3242.42721875,"end":3318.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3277.1728437500005,"end":3277.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3292.0565937500005,"end":3292.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3293.33909375,"end":3293.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3293.35596875,"end":3293.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3293.96346875,"end":3294.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3294.0309687500003,"end":3294.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3294.60471875,"end":3294.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3294.67221875,"end":3294.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3317.63909375,"end":3318.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3318.8709687500004,"end":3318.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3319.0059687500006,"end":3324.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3325.0303437500006,"end":3326.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3326.98784375,"end":3358.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3339.88034375,"end":3340.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3359.33721875,"end":3362.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3362.8809687500006,"end":3379.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3380.31284375,"end":3392.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3392.91846875,"end":3428.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3428.94659375,"end":3499.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3499.83846875,"end":3502.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3502.6397187500006,"end":3505.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3505.5084687500002,"end":3505.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3505.5253437500005,"end":3506.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3506.03159375,"end":3514.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3514.9753437500003,"end":3521.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3521.75909375,"end":3523.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3523.9528437500003,"end":3553.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3553.3659687500003,"end":3579.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3579.15096875,"end":3583.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3581.6990937500004,"end":3582.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3582.99846875,"end":3596.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3596.2790937500004,"end":3606.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3606.80909375,"end":3629.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3611.2809687500003,"end":3612.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3612.0234687500006,"end":3612.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3612.6309687500006,"end":3613.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":3626.5865937500002,"end":3629.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3629.15159375,"end":3629.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":3629.2022187500006,"end":3629.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3629.21909375,"end":3629.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":3630.24846875,"end":3633.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":3633.2184687500003,"end":3636.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3644.3222187500005,"end":3644.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3645.31784375,"end":3647.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3647.47784375,"end":3648.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3654.5653437500005,"end":3654.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3654.5822187500007,"end":3654.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3654.71721875,"end":3654.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3654.7340937500003,"end":3654.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3655.5947187500005,"end":3666.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3666.6647187500002,"end":3674.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3675.3553437500004,"end":3675.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3676.1990937500004,"end":3677.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3677.80221875,"end":3678.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3678.71346875,"end":3680.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3680.45159375,"end":3680.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3681.0928437500006,"end":3681.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3681.12659375,"end":3681.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3682.4765937500006,"end":3682.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3682.49346875,"end":3683.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3683.75909375,"end":3687.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3687.0665937500007,"end":3687.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3687.8428437500006,"end":3688.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3688.09596875,"end":3688.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3688.11284375,"end":3688.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3688.1297187500004,"end":3688.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3688.16346875,"end":3688.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3688.3322187500007,"end":3692.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3692.43284375,"end":3694.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3694.84596875,"end":3697.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3697.68096875,"end":3699.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3700.63409375,"end":3703.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3704.14409375,"end":3705.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3705.94971875,"end":3709.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3710.57346875,"end":3711.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3711.5859687500006,"end":3715.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3716.96909375,"end":3720.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3721.32284375,"end":3721.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3722.1159687500003,"end":3725.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3726.08159375,"end":3728.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3728.6465937500006,"end":3731.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3732.5447187500004,"end":3733.4728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3734.09721875,"end":3735.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3736.1053437500004,"end":3739.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3740.6447187500007,"end":3741.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3741.03284375,"end":3741.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3741.3703437500008,"end":3741.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3741.38721875,"end":3741.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3741.4209687500006,"end":3742.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3743.0915937500004,"end":3754.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3754.88721875,"end":3790.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3789.17721875,"end":3792.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3793.04159375,"end":3797.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3796.6697187500004,"end":3798.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3798.6609687500004,"end":3801.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3802.2384687500007,"end":3802.5422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3802.91346875,"end":3803.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3804.43221875,"end":3807.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3807.3347187500003,"end":3816.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3816.8015937500004,"end":3824.0578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3823.23096875,"end":3830.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3826.5722187500005,"end":3840.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3840.22409375,"end":3841.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3841.8103437500004,"end":3848.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3849.15096875,"end":3856.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3856.9978437500004,"end":3857.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3857.9765937500006,"end":3865.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3865.8740937500006,"end":3870.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3871.49346875,"end":3873.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3874.4297187500006,"end":3875.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3876.5222187500003,"end":3878.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3878.8847187500005,"end":3882.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3882.59721875,"end":3884.0822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3885.3478437500007,"end":3887.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3886.5290937500004,"end":3887.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3887.59221875,"end":3888.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3888.8240937500004,"end":3889.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3889.2965937500003,"end":3891.9797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3892.53659375,"end":3892.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3893.0934687500003,"end":3893.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3893.1103437500005,"end":3893.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3893.12721875,"end":3893.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3893.61659375,"end":3894.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3894.22409375,"end":3894.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3894.3253437500007,"end":3905.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3905.96909375,"end":3909.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3909.17534375,"end":3909.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3910.32284375,"end":3913.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3912.5840937500006,"end":3914.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3913.6472187500003,"end":3914.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3914.96346875,"end":3915.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.0478437500005,"end":3915.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3915.06471875,"end":3915.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.08159375,"end":3915.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3915.43596875,"end":3915.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.4697187500005,"end":3915.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3915.8409687500007,"end":3915.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.92534375,"end":3915.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3915.9928437500002,"end":3916.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3916.0097187500005,"end":3918.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3916.09409375,"end":3916.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3918.69284375,"end":3919.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3920.26221875,"end":3920.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3920.31284375,"end":3920.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3920.32971875,"end":3920.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3921.1228437500004,"end":3922.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3922.1690937500007,"end":3922.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3922.54034375,"end":3924.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3924.7340937500003,"end":3932.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3924.78471875,"end":3924.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3932.68221875,"end":3932.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3932.8340937500006,"end":3932.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3933.62721875,"end":3934.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3934.4540937500005,"end":3934.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3934.5047187500004,"end":3934.5215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3934.5215937500006,"end":3934.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3934.53846875,"end":3934.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3934.5553437500002,"end":3942.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3941.96346875,"end":3942.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3942.80721875,"end":3945.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3945.4903437500006,"end":3945.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3945.7772187500004,"end":3945.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3945.92909375,"end":3946.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3945.9459687500002,"end":3947.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3947.02596875,"end":3949.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3949.01721875,"end":3949.3547187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3949.5065937500003,"end":3949.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3949.5909687500007,"end":3961.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3950.70471875,"end":3951.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3961.53846875,"end":3975.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3967.0565937500005,"end":3967.4953437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3975.0047187500004,"end":3977.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3977.87346875,"end":3981.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3981.1134687500007,"end":3981.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3981.7040937500005,"end":3989.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3989.2978437500005,"end":3995.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3995.6259687500005,"end":3999.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3999.86159375,"end":3999.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4000.2159687500007,"end":4001.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4001.8359687500006,"end":4004.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4005.29534375,"end":4006.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4006.86471875,"end":4017.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4007.1515937500008,"end":4008.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4008.3834687500002,"end":4008.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4008.9572187500007,"end":4009.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4009.02471875,"end":4009.2609687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4010.5097187500005,"end":4010.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4013.12534375,"end":4013.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4014.5934687500003,"end":4015.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4017.15846875,"end":4017.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4017.22596875,"end":4017.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4017.3103437500004,"end":4033.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4033.67909375,"end":4035.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4035.1472187500003,"end":4037.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4038.20159375,"end":4039.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4039.95659375,"end":4043.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4043.33159375,"end":4043.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4043.7197187500005,"end":4046.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4046.9765937500006,"end":4049.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4050.0478437500005,"end":4053.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4054.30034375,"end":4058.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4057.6415937500005,"end":4060.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4058.70471875,"end":4059.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4060.2403437500006,"end":4061.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4060.86471875,"end":4061.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4063.04159375,"end":4064.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4063.4297187500006,"end":4065.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4066.1297187500004,"end":4069.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4068.7453437500008,"end":4072.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4072.3397187500004,"end":4075.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4076.94659375,"end":4086.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4086.8859687500008,"end":4092.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4088.3034687500003,"end":4089.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4093.16346875,"end":4093.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4093.5009687500005,"end":4093.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4094.2265937500006,"end":4095.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4096.200968749999,"end":4117.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4109.12721875,"end":4110.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4111.69221875,"end":4111.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4111.70909375,"end":4113.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4116.19784375,"end":4117.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4118.72909375,"end":4121.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4121.479718750001,"end":4122.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4123.50471875,"end":4130.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4129.61346875,"end":4133.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4130.895968750001,"end":4132.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4133.69721875,"end":4134.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4134.405968749999,"end":4136.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4136.83596875,"end":4138.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4150.4540937500005,"end":4150.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4151.2978437500005,"end":4153.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4163.39721875,"end":4163.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4165.017218749999,"end":4166.097218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4165.33784375,"end":4197.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4174.484093749999,"end":4174.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4197.34971875,"end":4208.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4209.5165937500005,"end":4211.237843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4211.59221875,"end":4218.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4218.359093749999,"end":4240.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4241.1572187500005,"end":4261.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4262.419718749999,"end":4264.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4265.524718750001,"end":4270.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4271.86971875,"end":4295.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4295.12346875,"end":4295.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4295.54534375,"end":4295.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4295.5790937500005,"end":4295.612843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4295.612843749999,"end":4295.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4295.96721875,"end":4296.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4297.013468749999,"end":4297.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4297.030343750001,"end":4301.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4301.940968749999,"end":4328.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4326.94971875,"end":4356.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4329.497843749999,"end":4329.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4333.83471875,"end":4333.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4333.88534375,"end":4333.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4356.39659375,"end":4356.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4357.03784375,"end":4358.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4359.467843750001,"end":4362.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4362.5897187499995,"end":4374.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4374.4697187500005,"end":4374.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4374.739718750001,"end":4374.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4374.77346875,"end":4374.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4374.975968750001,"end":4375.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4375.482218749999,"end":4411.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4411.03784375,"end":4425.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4411.61159375,"end":4412.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4425.80346875,"end":4480.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4480.37721875,"end":4480.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4480.579718749999,"end":4480.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4480.967843750001,"end":4482.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4482.554093750001,"end":4484.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4484.798468749999,"end":4526.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4526.41221875,"end":4531.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4531.42409375,"end":4531.440968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4531.440968749999,"end":4553.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4540.064093749999,"end":4541.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4541.39721875,"end":4541.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4541.616593750001,"end":4541.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4541.7684687500005,"end":4541.987843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4554.05346875,"end":4562.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4563.267218749999,"end":4573.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4573.763468749999,"end":4581.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4582.18409375,"end":4583.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4584.24284375,"end":4584.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4584.698468750001,"end":4602.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4601.91096875,"end":4603.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4602.40034375,"end":4602.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4605.555968750001,"end":4609.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4615.64721875,"end":4618.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4618.819718750001,"end":4619.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4623.76409375,"end":4627.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4627.61159375,"end":4627.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4628.202218750001,"end":4693.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4693.913468750001,"end":4698.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4698.62159375,"end":4700.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4701.10221875,"end":4701.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4702.435343749999,"end":4742.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4742.3447187500005,"end":4746.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4746.52971875,"end":4753.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4753.870343750001,"end":4758.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4758.34221875,"end":4762.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4762.341593749999,"end":4811.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4810.89096875,"end":4817.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4817.74221875,"end":4819.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4819.7840937500005,"end":4848.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4842.548468749999,"end":4843.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4847.35784375,"end":4852.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4850.007218750001,"end":4851.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4853.60159375,"end":4862.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4862.528468750001,"end":4862.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4862.747843749999,"end":4868.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4869.177218750001,"end":4902.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4902.842843750001,"end":4914.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4914.95909375,"end":4935.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4935.95159375,"end":4939.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4939.680968750001,"end":4978.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4978.493468750001,"end":4979.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4979.03346875,"end":4979.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4979.657843749999,"end":4979.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4979.69159375,"end":4979.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4980.231593750001,"end":5004.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5005.1728437500005,"end":5010.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5010.218468749999,"end":5031.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5031.02534375,"end":5034.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5034.552218750001,"end":5102.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5102.35596875,"end":5141.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5141.387843750001,"end":5145.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5146.247843749999,"end":5148.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5149.52159375,"end":5155.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5155.529093749999,"end":5156.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5157.52034375,"end":5192.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5192.50221875,"end":5204.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5205.698468750001,"end":5211.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5211.503468750001,"end":5212.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5213.055968750001,"end":5224.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5224.83471875,"end":5240.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5240.562218749999,"end":5270.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5269.55346875,"end":5296.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5296.55346875,"end":5297.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5297.194718750001,"end":5297.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5305.1259687500005,"end":5308.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5322.43971875,"end":5324.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5324.86971875,"end":5325.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5330.06721875,"end":5331.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5331.38346875,"end":5331.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5331.82221875,"end":5332.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5332.4803437499995,"end":5332.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5335.264718750001,"end":5369.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5346.95909375,"end":5347.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5347.00971875,"end":5347.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5347.161593750001,"end":5347.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5369.622218750001,"end":5403.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5403.929093750001,"end":5403.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5403.96284375,"end":5404.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5404.030343750001,"end":5404.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5404.0809687500005,"end":5404.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5404.165343750001,"end":5415.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5416.28159375,"end":5457.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5457.642218749999,"end":5462.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5462.434718750001,"end":5468.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5468.69534375,"end":5469.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5469.6572187500005,"end":5470.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5470.70346875,"end":5472.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5473.04909375,"end":5480.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5481.081593750001,"end":5515.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5516.11409375,"end":5538.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5539.23284375,"end":5542.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5543.02971875,"end":5544.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5544.90284375,"end":5547.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5547.467843750001,"end":5554.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5554.97721875,"end":5557.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5558.436593750001,"end":5560.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5560.765343749999,"end":5563.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5563.33034375,"end":5571.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5571.734093749999,"end":5572.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5572.020968750001,"end":5578.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5579.12534375,"end":5581.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5581.50471875,"end":5589.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5589.16596875,"end":5618.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5619.4228437500005,"end":5620.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5620.6884687500005,"end":5622.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5622.173468749999,"end":5623.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5624.40096875,"end":5627.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5628.315968750001,"end":5640.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5640.61784375,"end":5652.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5652.936593750001,"end":5652.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5652.95346875,"end":5653.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5653.03784375,"end":5654.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5654.30346875,"end":5654.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5654.35409375,"end":5656.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5656.109093749999,"end":5664.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5664.090968750001,"end":5666.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5664.10784375,"end":5664.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5664.20909375,"end":5664.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5665.23846875,"end":5667.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5667.01034375,"end":5667.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5667.29721875,"end":5671.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5671.41471875,"end":5677.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5678.282843749999,"end":5681.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5680.32471875,"end":5680.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5681.16846875,"end":5683.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5683.682843750001,"end":5692.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5690.83784375,"end":5691.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5692.255343750001,"end":5695.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5695.61346875,"end":5695.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5695.765343749999,"end":5695.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5695.866593750001,"end":5696.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5696.50784375,"end":5701.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5701.5028437500005,"end":5707.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5707.155968749999,"end":5707.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5707.493468750001,"end":5707.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5707.51034375,"end":5738.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5739.134093750001,"end":5739.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5739.99471875,"end":5741.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5741.96909375,"end":5744.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5744.50034375,"end":5744.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5744.97284375,"end":5745.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5745.9178437499995,"end":5746.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5746.60971875,"end":5751.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5751.90846875,"end":5751.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5751.95909375,"end":5751.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5751.975968750001,"end":5752.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5752.17846875,"end":5752.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5752.19534375,"end":5755.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5755.89096875,"end":5758.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5759.16471875,"end":5763.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5764.581593750001,"end":5765.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5765.948468750001,"end":5766.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5766.99471875,"end":5767.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5767.635968750001,"end":5775.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5775.837218750001,"end":5793.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5793.48846875,"end":5796.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5796.5428437499995,"end":5802.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5802.179093750001,"end":5816.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5816.40471875,"end":5819.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5820.30284375,"end":5822.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5822.63159375,"end":5823.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5823.981593750001,"end":5824.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5825.21346875,"end":5826.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5827.255343750001,"end":5834.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5834.59596875,"end":5837.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5839.202843749999,"end":5840.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5840.4178437499995,"end":5841.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5841.43034375,"end":5844.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5844.95721875,"end":5846.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5846.91471875,"end":5849.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5850.49221875,"end":5853.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5853.58034375,"end":5857.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5857.917218750001,"end":5859.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5860.6678437499995,"end":5871.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5874.67409375,"end":5885.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5885.50784375,"end":5885.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5885.575343750001,"end":5886.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5887.9715937500005,"end":5893.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5904.930968750001,"end":5908.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5917.23284375,"end":5919.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5918.430968750001,"end":5919.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5919.696593750001,"end":5919.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5919.966593749999,"end":5920.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5921.13096875,"end":5923.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5923.79721875,"end":5964.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5964.7528437500005,"end":5965.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5965.680968750001,"end":5975.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5975.50221875,"end":6005.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6005.03346875,"end":6006.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6006.231593750001,"end":6012.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6013.167218750001,"end":6030.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6030.61596875,"end":6032.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6032.21909375,"end":6036.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6036.2353437500005,"end":6039.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6039.9647187499995,"end":6043.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6043.440968750001,"end":6049.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6048.25034375,"end":6064.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6060.14721875,"end":6060.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6060.16409375,"end":6060.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6060.180968750001,"end":6060.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6060.29909375,"end":6060.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6060.974093750001,"end":6064.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6064.97346875,"end":6095.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6095.804093750001,"end":6125.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6128.102843750001,"end":6171.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6171.927218750001,"end":6175.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6173.1590937500005,"end":6173.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6175.65659375,"end":6175.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6175.94346875,"end":6205.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6206.048468750001,"end":6233.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6234.24659375,"end":6238.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6238.56659375,"end":6239.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6239.96721875,"end":6244.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6244.962218750001,"end":6286.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6287.099093750001,"end":6332.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6298.439093750001,"end":6298.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6332.77971875,"end":6337.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6337.065968750001,"end":6383.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6384.14721875,"end":6391.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6392.17971875,"end":6392.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6392.44971875,"end":6392.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6392.466593749999,"end":6446.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6446.989718750001,"end":6463.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6463.763468749999,"end":6466.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6463.780343750001,"end":6464.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6465.67034375,"end":6482.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6481.920968750001,"end":6485.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6484.65471875,"end":6485.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6485.22846875,"end":6485.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6485.802218750001,"end":6486.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6486.00471875,"end":6488.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6489.21096875,"end":6492.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6494.526593750001,"end":6512.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6514.89471875,"end":6517.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6517.679093750001,"end":6518.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6527.6522187499995,"end":6535.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6535.819718750001,"end":6536.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6536.8153437500005,"end":6540.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6540.86534375,"end":6543.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6543.2615937499995,"end":6546.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6546.33284375,"end":6549.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6549.370343750001,"end":6555.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6555.86721875,"end":6556.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6557.048468750001,"end":6568.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6568.60784375,"end":6571.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6571.37534375,"end":6577.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6577.65284375,"end":6583.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6584.655968749999,"end":6585.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6585.314093750001,"end":6588.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6586.950968749999,"end":6587.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6589.060343749999,"end":6591.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6590.59596875,"end":6593.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6592.030343750001,"end":6594.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6594.81471875,"end":6603.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6603.6572187500005,"end":6610.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6610.42409375,"end":6612.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6612.63471875,"end":6618.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6618.52409375,"end":6633.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6634.18409375,"end":6635.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6635.41596875,"end":6637.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6637.491593750001,"end":6639.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6639.7528437500005,"end":6644.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6644.46096875,"end":6659.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6660.34034375,"end":6679.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6680.11784375,"end":6695.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6695.87909375,"end":6696.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6696.72284375,"end":6701.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6701.81909375,"end":6706.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6706.780343750001,"end":6724.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6724.819718750001,"end":6726.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6727.2665937500005,"end":6747.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6748.259093750001,"end":6754.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6754.33409375,"end":6760.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6760.915343750001,"end":6806.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6806.5115937499995,"end":6815.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6815.82659375,"end":6819.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6819.184718750001,"end":6821.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6821.81721875,"end":6859.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6860.07284375,"end":6885.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6884.08596875,"end":6908.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6907.069718750001,"end":6909.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6910.03971875,"end":6911.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6911.1365937499995,"end":6912.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6912.7059687500005,"end":6916.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6916.0809687500005,"end":6923.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6923.40471875,"end":6937.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6933.10784375,"end":6933.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6937.84971875,"end":6938.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6938.389718750001,"end":6941.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6941.22471875,"end":6948.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6948.39659375,"end":6958.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6951.889718750001,"end":6952.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6958.13346875,"end":6963.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6960.1415937500005,"end":6960.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6960.411593750001,"end":6960.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6962.655968750001,"end":6963.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6963.0272187499995,"end":6964.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6963.786593750001,"end":6984.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6984.5428437499995,"end":6990.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6986.73659375,"end":6986.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6986.753468750001,"end":6987.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6988.47471875,"end":6988.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6990.39846875,"end":7002.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7001.4178437499995,"end":7009.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7010.057843750001,"end":7010.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7010.31096875,"end":7013.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7011.94784375,"end":7012.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7012.487843750001,"end":7012.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7013.466593749999,"end":7020.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7020.4697187500005,"end":7035.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7034.712218750001,"end":7051.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7037.46284375,"end":7037.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7042.50846875,"end":7044.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7044.600968750001,"end":7045.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7047.655343750001,"end":7048.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7050.135968750001,"end":7050.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7051.2665937500005,"end":7054.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7054.18596875,"end":7055.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7054.6415937500005,"end":7055.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7055.147843750001,"end":7059.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7055.282843750001,"end":7055.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7065.76221875,"end":7069.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7069.71096875,"end":7070.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7072.529093749999,"end":7074.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7074.2840937500005,"end":7074.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7075.532843750001,"end":7104.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7105.38471875,"end":7144.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":7114.5478437500005,"end":7114.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7114.9697187500005,"end":7115.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7145.20971875,"end":7145.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7145.2772187499995,"end":7146.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7145.31096875,"end":7145.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7146.407843750001,"end":7146.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7146.5428437499995,"end":7166.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7166.21909375,"end":7195.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7168.09221875,"end":7168.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7181.8622187500005,"end":7182.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7195.952843750001,"end":7201.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7197.640343750001,"end":7198.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7201.909718750001,"end":7217.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7204.069718750001,"end":7204.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7212.6590937500005,"end":7212.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7217.68784375,"end":7232.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7227.86346875,"end":7228.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7232.520968750001,"end":7236.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7232.841593749999,"end":7270.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7238.849093750001,"end":7239.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7272.19409375,"end":7276.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7277.3240937499995,"end":7319.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7320.743468750001,"end":7330.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7331.17221875,"end":7346.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7346.83221875,"end":7371.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7372.026593750001,"end":7413.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7372.65096875,"end":7373.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7413.083468750001,"end":7416.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7416.6103437500005,"end":7419.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7419.040343750001,"end":7421.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7421.284718750001,"end":7423.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7421.50409375,"end":7425.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7424.54159375,"end":7426.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7426.397843750001,"end":7432.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7431.3759687500005,"end":7431.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7431.39284375,"end":7431.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7433.53596875,"end":7433.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7433.77221875,"end":7448.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7433.805968750001,"end":7434.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7444.79159375,"end":7444.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7444.97721875,"end":7445.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7445.1122187500005,"end":7445.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7449.280343750001,"end":7455.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7456.350968750001,"end":7459.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7457.329718750001,"end":7458.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7459.42221875,"end":7463.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7462.22346875,"end":7462.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7463.03346875,"end":7463.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7464.14721875,"end":7465.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7466.374718750001,"end":7470.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7470.4247187500005,"end":7473.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7473.7997187500005,"end":7478.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7477.83284375,"end":7478.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7479.75659375,"end":7479.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7479.85784375,"end":7480.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7480.870343750001,"end":7483.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7483.857218749999,"end":7484.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7484.81909375,"end":7489.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7490.03346875,"end":7491.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7492.4803437499995,"end":7493.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7492.632218750001,"end":7493.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7493.54346875,"end":7493.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7493.96534375,"end":7494.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7494.032843750001,"end":7494.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7494.15096875,"end":7494.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7494.1678437499995,"end":7494.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7494.2353437500005,"end":7494.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7494.269093750001,"end":7494.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7494.33659375,"end":7494.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7494.43784375,"end":7495.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7495.872218750001,"end":7536.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7534.819718750001,"end":7542.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7537.958468750001,"end":7538.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7539.15659375,"end":7539.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7540.624718750001,"end":7542.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7542.734093750001,"end":7551.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7543.08846875,"end":7543.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7543.780343750001,"end":7544.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7547.104718750001,"end":7548.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7551.323468750001,"end":7569.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7567.28721875,"end":7572.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7572.29909375,"end":7572.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7572.33284375,"end":7573.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7573.075343750001,"end":7574.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7574.59409375,"end":7575.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7576.264718750001,"end":7625.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7624.98284375,"end":7626.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7626.01221875,"end":7638.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7638.16221875,"end":7638.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7639.41096875,"end":7659.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7659.49221875,"end":7671.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7667.845343750001,"end":7669.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7671.52409375,"end":7674.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7674.62909375,"end":7677.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7690.18784375,"end":7691.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7691.571593750001,"end":7692.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7693.14096875,"end":7694.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7701.29159375,"end":7702.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7703.940968750001,"end":7705.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7706.3709687499995,"end":7707.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7708.00784375,"end":7710.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7710.741593750001,"end":7711.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7712.952218750001,"end":7716.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7716.462218750001,"end":7720.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7721.187218750001,"end":7726.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7726.89096875,"end":7728.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7728.7978437500005,"end":7729.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7729.540343750001,"end":7730.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7730.620343750001,"end":7731.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7732.155968750001,"end":7732.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7732.29096875,"end":7732.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7732.392218750001,"end":7732.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7732.45971875,"end":7732.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7733.2528437500005,"end":7736.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7738.3153437500005,"end":7746.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7744.98096875,"end":7745.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7747.2928437499995,"end":7749.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7748.06909375,"end":7748.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7749.94221875,"end":7751.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7751.54534375,"end":7752.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7753.671593750001,"end":7756.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7756.23659375,"end":7757.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7758.2615937499995,"end":7758.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7758.29534375,"end":7758.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7758.362843750001,"end":7758.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7759.24034375,"end":7762.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7759.66221875,"end":7760.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7762.075343750001,"end":7762.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7762.919093750001,"end":7773.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7773.71909375,"end":7773.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7773.80346875,"end":7777.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7777.78596875,"end":7779.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7780.030343750001,"end":7782.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7783.70909375,"end":7784.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7785.05909375,"end":7786.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7787.100968750001,"end":7789.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7789.93596875,"end":7792.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7792.65284375,"end":7794.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7795.13346875,"end":7796.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7796.702843750001,"end":7797.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7797.360968750001,"end":7799.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7800.550343750001,"end":7800.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7800.702218750001,"end":7806.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7806.67596875,"end":7808.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7809.038468750001,"end":7812.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7812.649718750001,"end":7814.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7815.231593750001,"end":7819.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7819.956593750001,"end":7821.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7821.272843750001,"end":7823.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7825.305968750001,"end":7827.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7827.53346875,"end":7832.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7833.0009687500005,"end":7833.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7834.2665937500005,"end":7836.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7837.962218750001,"end":7838.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7839.34596875,"end":7842.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7843.64909375,"end":7847.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7848.44159375,"end":7849.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7849.403468750001,"end":7854.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7854.56721875,"end":7856.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7856.575343750001,"end":7859.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7859.9334687499995,"end":7861.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7862.0428437499995,"end":7862.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7862.7684687500005,"end":7865.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7866.464093750001,"end":7867.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7868.55659375,"end":7869.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7869.653468750001,"end":7883.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7884.43596875,"end":7900.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7899.94409375,"end":7901.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7901.479718750001,"end":7916.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7903.352843750001,"end":7903.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7915.18221875,"end":7923.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7916.97096875,"end":7917.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7918.69221875,"end":7919.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7924.61534375,"end":7928.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7925.93159375,"end":7927.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7927.36596875,"end":7931.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7931.60159375,"end":7932.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7932.124718750001,"end":7935.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7935.61784375,"end":7937.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7937.102843750001,"end":7941.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7940.83221875,"end":7943.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7943.8865937499995,"end":7947.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7947.80159375,"end":7951.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7951.04159375,"end":7951.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7951.530968750001,"end":8035.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8036.1590937500005,"end":8041.154093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8041.3397187499995,"end":8048.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8049.034718750001,"end":8051.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8052.44346875,"end":8053.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8054.097218750001,"end":8054.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8054.805968750001,"end":8058.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8059.32846875,"end":8064.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8064.779093750001,"end":8070.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8070.5165937500005,"end":8072.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8073.48659375,"end":8077.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8078.59971875,"end":8082.075968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8082.34596875,"end":8084.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8082.413468750001,"end":8086.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8086.952843750001,"end":8088.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8089.062218750001,"end":8093.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8093.78721875,"end":8108.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8109.44721875,"end":8111.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8111.45534375,"end":8114.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8114.982218750001,"end":8122.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8123.16659375,"end":8127.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8127.80721875,"end":8127.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8127.90846875,"end":8128.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8128.161593750001,"end":8129.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8129.764718750001,"end":8129.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8129.798468750001,"end":8129.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8129.83221875,"end":8130.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8129.984093750001,"end":8132.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8132.329718750001,"end":8132.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8132.8865937499995,"end":8133.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8135.31659375,"end":8141.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8142.032843750001,"end":8147.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8147.31471875,"end":8149.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8150.099093750001,"end":8153.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8153.845343750001,"end":8159.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8159.987843750001,"end":8169.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8169.62346875,"end":8172.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8172.23909375,"end":8181.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8182.212218750001,"end":8185.013468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8183.747843750001,"end":8183.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8183.764718750001,"end":8183.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8183.96721875,"end":8184.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8185.04721875,"end":8189.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8189.9072187500005,"end":8193.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8193.09659375,"end":8193.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8193.231593750003,"end":8193.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8193.653468750003,"end":8193.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8194.446593749999,"end":8194.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8194.46346875,"end":8195.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8195.762843750003,"end":8196.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8196.03284375,"end":8198.665343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8200.31909375,"end":8203.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8203.94721875,"end":8204.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8205.80346875,"end":8211.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8211.895343750002,"end":8214.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8214.86534375,"end":8217.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8217.86909375,"end":8218.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8220.062843750002,"end":8220.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8221.34534375,"end":8224.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8225.969093750002,"end":8226.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8226.00284375,"end":8230.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8230.84596875,"end":8233.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8234.085968750001,"end":8235.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8237.00534375,"end":8237.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8238.422843750002,"end":8241.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8242.169093750003,"end":8243.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8243.55284375,"end":8248.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8249.003468750001,"end":8258.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8249.83034375,"end":8250.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8259.246593750002,"end":8264.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8265.000968750002,"end":8265.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8265.06846875,"end":8267.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8268.71346875,"end":8268.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8269.219718750002,"end":8270.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8271.582218750002,"end":8275.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8275.93596875,"end":8276.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8276.864093750002,"end":8279.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8280.67784375,"end":8284.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8286.16221875,"end":8290.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8290.81971875,"end":8293.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8294.17784375,"end":8300.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8300.910968750002,"end":8307.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8307.57659375,"end":8307.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8308.032218750002,"end":8309.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8310.040343750003,"end":8311.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8312.250968750002,"end":8316.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8317.07721875,"end":8320.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8321.042843750001,"end":8323.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8324.02971875,"end":8326.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8326.527218750001,"end":8327.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8327.269718750002,"end":8329.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8329.902218750001,"end":8330.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8330.50971875,"end":8334.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8335.403468750003,"end":8339.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8340.415343750003,"end":8342.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8343.621593750002,"end":8344.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8344.988468750002,"end":8347.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8347.65471875,"end":8350.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8350.894718750002,"end":8355.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8356.19346875,"end":8358.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8359.079093750002,"end":8364.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8364.36096875,"end":8366.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8367.22971875,"end":8370.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8371.144718750002,"end":8372.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8372.32596875,"end":8376.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8373.777218750001,"end":8374.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8376.96659375,"end":8378.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8378.485343750002,"end":8378.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8378.50221875,"end":8378.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8378.535968750002,"end":8378.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8378.56971875,"end":8378.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8378.97471875,"end":8379.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8379.312218750001,"end":8381.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8382.062843750002,"end":8384.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":8383.81784375,"end":8383.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8383.98659375,"end":8384.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":8384.03721875,"end":8384.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":8384.442218750002,"end":8385.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8384.45909375,"end":8384.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8384.52659375,"end":8384.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8384.88096875,"end":8384.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8384.965343750002,"end":8385.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":8387.95221875,"end":8389.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8403.03846875,"end":8403.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8472.175343750001,"end":8472.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8473.609718750002,"end":8473.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8473.74471875,"end":8473.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8473.94721875,"end":8474.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8475.26346875,"end":8475.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8476.49534375,"end":8476.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8478.97596875,"end":8481.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8483.430968750003,"end":8483.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8483.97096875,"end":8484.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8484.527843750002,"end":8485.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8485.962218750003,"end":8486.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8486.485343750002,"end":8486.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8486.535968750002,"end":8487.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8486.839718750001,"end":8486.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8487.46409375,"end":8487.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8487.54846875,"end":8487.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8487.97034375,"end":8488.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9233.187218750001,"end":9238.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9238.840343750002,"end":9248.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9248.50971875,"end":9248.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9251.63159375,"end":9251.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9254.16284375,"end":9255.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9255.884093750003,"end":9256.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9272.843468750001,"end":9308.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9272.97846875,"end":9273.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9274.075343750003,"end":9274.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9308.820968750002,"end":9317.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9317.882843750001,"end":9318.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9319.367843750002,"end":9321.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9321.527843750002,"end":9332.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9332.47971875,"end":9335.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9335.753468750001,"end":9340.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9339.43221875,"end":9345.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9344.984093750001,"end":9359.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9359.969093750002,"end":9367.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9367.191593750002,"end":9369.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9369.58784375,"end":9370.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9370.667843750001,"end":9374.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9374.44784375,"end":9379.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9379.81409375,"end":9380.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9380.20221875,"end":9381.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9382.31159375,"end":9386.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9386.90159375,"end":9395.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9396.28409375,"end":9398.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9398.69721875,"end":9399.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9399.102218750002,"end":9404.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9404.97471875,"end":9412.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9412.72034375,"end":9417.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9418.559093750002,"end":9424.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9425.190968750001,"end":9426.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9427.199093750001,"end":9439.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9438.82596875,"end":9440.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9439.34909375,"end":9439.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9440.56409375,"end":9441.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9441.188468750002,"end":9446.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9442.79159375,"end":9443.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9446.63909375,"end":9448.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9448.10721875,"end":9453.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9453.321593750003,"end":9453.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9453.92909375,"end":9457.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9458.40096875,"end":9460.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9459.734093750001,"end":9468.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9468.69471875,"end":9471.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9472.15409375,"end":9476.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9476.980343750001,"end":9487.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9487.594718750002,"end":9497.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9497.702843750001,"end":9506.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9506.42721875,"end":9509.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9510.44346875,"end":9543.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9519.218468750001,"end":9519.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9542.759093750003,"end":9543.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9543.315968750001,"end":9546.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9544.36221875,"end":9545.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9546.910343750002,"end":9561.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9561.372218750003,"end":9564.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9564.578468750002,"end":9566.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9566.535968750002,"end":9569.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9570.282218750002,"end":9571.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9572.99909375,"end":9579.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9580.17096875,"end":9585.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9586.27971875,"end":9586.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9587.157218750002,"end":9594.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9594.19409375,"end":9594.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9594.261593750001,"end":9600.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9601.534718750001,"end":9604.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9604.96034375,"end":9609.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9609.145343750002,"end":9614.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9615.034718750001,"end":9621.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9622.324718750002,"end":9631.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9632.179718750001,"end":9644.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9644.565968750001,"end":9651.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9651.585968750001,"end":9652.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9651.602843750003,"end":9660.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9654.89346875,"end":9655.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9656.53034375,"end":9657.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9660.023468750001,"end":9663.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9662.89221875,"end":9685.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9665.91284375,"end":9666.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9668.089718750001,"end":9668.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9685.707218750002,"end":9695.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9695.258468750002,"end":9695.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9695.32596875,"end":9705.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9706.581593750001,"end":9710.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9710.83409375,"end":9711.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9711.070343750001,"end":9717.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9717.36471875,"end":9720.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9720.23346875,"end":9720.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9720.80721875,"end":9723.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9724.80659375,"end":9733.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9733.581593750001,"end":9733.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9734.13846875,"end":9740.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9740.922218750002,"end":9742.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9743.132843750001,"end":9751.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9751.97534375,"end":9753.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9753.899093750002,"end":9755.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9756.582218750002,"end":9757.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9757.72971875,"end":9759.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9759.636593750001,"end":9762.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9763.09596875,"end":9772.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9773.28846875,"end":9773.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9773.507843750001,"end":9783.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9783.329093750002,"end":9787.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9787.868468750003,"end":9788.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9788.762843750003,"end":9797.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9798.246593750002,"end":9802.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9803.32596875,"end":9807.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9807.156593750002,"end":9815.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9815.324093750001,"end":9827.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9817.180343750002,"end":9818.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9827.96346875,"end":9827.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9827.997218750003,"end":9828.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9828.18284375,"end":9828.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9828.199718750002,"end":9830.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9828.21659375,"end":9828.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9828.75659375,"end":9829.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9830.86596875,"end":9833.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9832.148468750001,"end":9832.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9833.32971875,"end":9838.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9846.019718750002,"end":9847.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9848.48346875,"end":9850.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9855.85784375,"end":9856.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9855.95909375,"end":9856.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9856.296593750001,"end":9856.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9856.39784375,"end":9865.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9865.628468750001,"end":9871.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9872.00721875,"end":9874.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9874.36971875,"end":9895.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9895.699718750002,"end":9897.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9897.84284375,"end":9900.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9897.87659375,"end":9897.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9900.05346875,"end":9900.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9900.67784375,"end":9901.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9900.74534375,"end":9900.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9901.04909375,"end":9901.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9901.11659375,"end":9904.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9904.660343750002,"end":9905.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9907.039718750002,"end":9908.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9909.55409375,"end":9925.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9925.821593750003,"end":9933.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9933.887843750003,"end":9937.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9936.840968750003,"end":9943.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9939.76034375,"end":9939.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9943.641593750002,"end":9946.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9946.223468750002,"end":9964.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9964.769093750001,"end":9967.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9969.12284375,"end":9970.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9970.945343750001,"end":9984.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9984.58034375,"end":9988.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9989.085968750001,"end":9989.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9990.01409375,"end":9994.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9994.38471875,"end":9999.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9996.949718750002,"end":9997.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9999.91971875,"end":10005.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10001.67471875,"end":10002.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10002.332843750002,"end":10002.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10005.77534375,"end":10005.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10006.21409375,"end":10006.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10006.450343750003,"end":10006.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10007.074718750002,"end":10013.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10012.05284375,"end":10012.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10013.48721875,"end":10015.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10013.622218750003,"end":10015.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10015.44471875,"end":10015.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10015.64721875,"end":10022.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10015.664093750001,"end":10015.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10022.430968750003,"end":10024.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10024.118468750003,"end":10034.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10034.344718750002,"end":10041.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10042.292843750001,"end":10045.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10046.089718750001,"end":10047.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10048.637843750003,"end":10048.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10048.82346875,"end":10048.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10048.840343750002,"end":10048.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10048.85721875,"end":10050.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10050.96659375,"end":10114.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10112.67846875,"end":10131.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10117.42034375,"end":10119.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10131.61221875,"end":10138.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10138.581593750001,"end":10139.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10139.25659375,"end":10142.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10140.77534375,"end":10142.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10142.648468750001,"end":10163.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10164.180968750003,"end":10174.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10173.867218750001,"end":10177.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10176.870968750001,"end":10193.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10178.980343750001,"end":10179.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10194.218468750001,"end":10198.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10197.42471875,"end":10200.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10200.715343750002,"end":10207.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10205.524718750003,"end":10205.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10207.988468750002,"end":10213.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10214.114093750002,"end":10215.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10215.56534375,"end":10218.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10219.176593750002,"end":10225.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10225.25159375,"end":10229.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10228.778468750003,"end":10234.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10232.17034375,"end":10255.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10256.04846875,"end":10257.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10256.53784375,"end":10257.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10261.38096875,"end":10266.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10278.05346875,"end":10281.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10281.58034375,"end":10282.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10282.440968750001,"end":10282.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10288.887218750002,"end":10289.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10289.96721875,"end":10290.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10290.86159375,"end":10301.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10301.45909375,"end":10312.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10312.360343750002,"end":10318.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10318.65471875,"end":10323.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10324.122218750003,"end":10325.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10325.860343750002,"end":10349.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10350.71721875,"end":10351.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10352.18534375,"end":10355.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10355.93159375,"end":10361.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10362.41159375,"end":10374.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10375.253468750001,"end":10377.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10377.41346875,"end":10403.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10403.67096875,"end":10413.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10413.35721875,"end":10413.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10413.42471875,"end":10415.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10415.90534375,"end":10432.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10432.76346875,"end":10447.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10447.90034375,"end":10451.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10451.781593750002,"end":10455.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10455.81471875,"end":10485.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10485.07596875,"end":10485.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10485.649718750003,"end":10489.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10489.34534375,"end":10493.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10493.78346875,"end":10493.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10493.918468750002,"end":10495.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10495.57221875,"end":10500.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10500.246593750002,"end":10529.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10528.91721875,"end":10533.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10533.726593750001,"end":10537.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10536.71346875,"end":10544.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10544.25659375,"end":10556.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10554.31409375,"end":10554.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10554.398468750001,"end":10554.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10557.300968750002,"end":10570.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10568.13471875,"end":10568.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10569.87284375,"end":10574.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10574.192843750003,"end":10599.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10599.79221875,"end":10602.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10602.087218750003,"end":10602.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10602.72846875,"end":10603.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10603.825343750003,"end":10605.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10604.80409375,"end":10606.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10606.57596875,"end":10608.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10608.617843750002,"end":10611.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10611.95909375,"end":10622.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10623.180968750003,"end":10628.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10629.27284375,"end":10635.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10635.921593750001,"end":10638.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10639.094093750002,"end":10653.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10654.079093750002,"end":10655.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10654.180343750002,"end":10654.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10655.175968750002,"end":10659.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10655.20971875,"end":10655.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10657.74096875,"end":10657.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10660.74471875,"end":10660.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10660.96409375,"end":10663.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10662.297218750002,"end":10664.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10664.474093750003,"end":10670.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10670.76846875,"end":10679.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10671.96659375,"end":10673.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10680.285968750002,"end":10683.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10683.610343750002,"end":10699.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10700.097218750001,"end":10707.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10706.914718750002,"end":10706.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10707.488468750002,"end":10715.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10715.68971875,"end":10723.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10723.722218750001,"end":10725.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10725.44346875,"end":10739.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10732.176593750002,"end":10732.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10732.26096875,"end":10732.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10732.497218750003,"end":10732.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10736.766593750002,"end":10738.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10739.36534375,"end":10739.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10739.567843750003,"end":10741.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10741.74471875,"end":10742.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10742.672843750002,"end":10746.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10747.144718750002,"end":10762.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10761.336593750002,"end":10761.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10761.977843750003,"end":10761.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10762.011593750001,"end":10773.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10771.37721875,"end":10771.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10773.48659375,"end":10776.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10773.55409375,"end":10773.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10773.621593750002,"end":10774.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10775.79846875,"end":10782.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10782.379718750002,"end":10785.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10785.78846875,"end":10787.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10788.30284375,"end":10790.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10791.087218750003,"end":10792.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10793.21346875,"end":10795.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10795.440968750001,"end":10798.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10798.832843750002,"end":10824.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10823.723468750002,"end":10824.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10824.43221875,"end":10824.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10825.47846875,"end":10825.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10825.69784375,"end":10825.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10825.714718750001,"end":10851.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10849.457843750002,"end":10849.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10850.80784375,"end":10852.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10852.84971875,"end":10858.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10870.281593750002,"end":10878.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10885.13159375,"end":10885.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10885.40159375,"end":10898.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10893.34971875,"end":10893.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10893.51846875,"end":10893.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10893.56909375,"end":10893.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10898.699093750001,"end":10903.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10904.16659375,"end":10908.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10909.769093750001,"end":10911.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10909.90409375,"end":10910.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10911.13596875,"end":10913.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10913.97096875,"end":10925.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10925.749718750001,"end":10933.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10925.800343750001,"end":10926.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10927.403468750003,"end":10928.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10928.73659375,"end":10928.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10934.06909375,"end":10943.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10944.39659375,"end":10949.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10944.49784375,"end":10945.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10949.89784375,"end":10974.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10974.585968750001,"end":10974.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10974.61971875,"end":10977.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10977.690968750001,"end":10983.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10983.10784375,"end":10983.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10983.141593750002,"end":10983.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10983.31034375,"end":10995.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10995.780968750001,"end":11000.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10998.44721875,"end":11009.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11001.855968750002,"end":11002.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11003.10471875,"end":11004.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11007.20534375,"end":11009.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11009.922218750002,"end":11021.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11021.49846875,"end":11026.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11026.274093750002,"end":11029.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11030.003468750001,"end":11030.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11030.08784375,"end":11033.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11033.63159375,"end":11035.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11035.69034375,"end":11039.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11039.993468750003,"end":11045.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11045.81534375,"end":11047.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11047.03034375,"end":11055.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11049.13971875,"end":11051.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11055.51846875,"end":11067.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11068.37721875,"end":11073.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11071.75221875,"end":11086.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11083.73346875,"end":11084.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11085.15096875,"end":11089.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11086.973468750002,"end":11089.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11089.63971875,"end":11089.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11089.69034375,"end":11089.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11089.757843750001,"end":11089.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11089.909718750001,"end":11092.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11089.977218750002,"end":11117.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11117.280968750001,"end":11117.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11117.43284375,"end":11121.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11117.46659375,"end":11118.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11122.15784375,"end":11122.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11122.259093750003,"end":11122.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11123.06909375,"end":11124.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11125.33034375,"end":11125.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11125.53284375,"end":11128.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11127.321593750003,"end":11128.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11128.199093750001,"end":11128.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11128.215968750003,"end":11134.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11130.629093750002,"end":11130.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11132.957843750002,"end":11133.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11133.83534375,"end":11140.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11139.657218750002,"end":11144.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11144.280968750001,"end":11152.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11147.04846875,"end":11147.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11149.12409375,"end":11150.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11150.609093750001,"end":11152.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11152.718468750001,"end":11152.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11152.735343750002,"end":11152.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11152.97159375,"end":11163.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11154.11909375,"end":11155.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11163.653468750003,"end":11176.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11177.035343750002,"end":11189.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11189.708468750003,"end":11199.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11199.10784375,"end":11199.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11199.124718750001,"end":11199.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11199.968468750001,"end":11200.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11200.17096875,"end":11200.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11200.64346875,"end":11200.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11200.79534375,"end":11200.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11200.96409375,"end":11200.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11200.980968750002,"end":11201.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11201.06534375,"end":11201.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11201.099093750003,"end":11201.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11201.976593750001,"end":11202.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11202.11159375,"end":11219.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11213.29971875,"end":11214.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11216.640968750002,"end":11216.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11217.72096875,"end":11218.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11219.003468750001,"end":11219.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11219.45909375,"end":11222.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11219.47596875,"end":11219.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11219.796593750001,"end":11237.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11238.56159375,"end":11243.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11241.852218750002,"end":11249.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11257.52909375,"end":11259.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11259.824093750001,"end":11260.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11267.114093750002,"end":11267.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11267.316593750002,"end":11267.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11267.99159375,"end":11278.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11277.72846875,"end":11278.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11278.707218750002,"end":11282.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11280.664718750002,"end":11281.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11282.200343750003,"end":11282.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11283.769718750002,"end":11288.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11287.80284375,"end":11294.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11289.16971875,"end":11289.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11290.18221875,"end":11291.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11293.270343750002,"end":11294.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11294.99159375,"end":11305.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11304.390968750002,"end":11324.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11306.179718750001,"end":11307.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11324.472218750001,"end":11330.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11325.14721875,"end":11326.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11330.00721875,"end":11333.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11333.871593750002,"end":11340.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11340.317843750003,"end":11341.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11341.769093750001,"end":11341.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11341.785968750002,"end":11342.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11341.97159375,"end":11358.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11346.13971875,"end":11346.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11358.42471875,"end":11372.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11372.582843750002,"end":11386.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11386.605968750002,"end":11390.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11389.32284375,"end":11389.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11390.31846875,"end":11395.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11395.094093750002,"end":11397.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11396.089718750001,"end":11401.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11401.40534375,"end":11407.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11407.902218750001,"end":11409.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11409.167843750001,"end":11426.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11426.71784375,"end":11436.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11436.960968750001,"end":11448.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11448.300968750002,"end":11448.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11448.503468750001,"end":11478.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11448.520343750002,"end":11448.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11477.781593750002,"end":11486.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11483.114093750002,"end":11483.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11483.97471875,"end":11484.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11484.278468750003,"end":11484.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11485.442843750003,"end":11485.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11485.45971875,"end":11486.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11486.18534375,"end":11497.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11497.54221875,"end":11504.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11503.937843750002,"end":11505.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11505.844718750002,"end":11510.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11510.434718750003,"end":11513.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11513.286593750003,"end":11523.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11523.445343750001,"end":11550.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11550.63096875,"end":11568.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11565.734093750001,"end":11572.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11568.535343750002,"end":11569.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11570.543468750002,"end":11571.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11572.652843750002,"end":11591.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11591.14784375,"end":11600.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11602.724093750003,"end":11608.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11623.581593750001,"end":11626.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11626.56846875,"end":11627.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11635.32659375,"end":11635.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11636.254718750002,"end":11697.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11698.219718750002,"end":11717.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11716.07346875,"end":11716.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11716.10721875,"end":11716.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11717.085968750001,"end":11717.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11717.777843750002,"end":11718.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11718.520343750002,"end":11718.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11719.39784375,"end":11756.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11755.695968750002,"end":11806.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11806.962218750003,"end":11813.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11813.99909375,"end":11845.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11845.926593750002,"end":11858.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11859.409718750001,"end":11872.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11869.349093750003,"end":11870.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11871.120968750001,"end":11876.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11873.145968750003,"end":11873.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11874.52971875,"end":11875.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11875.12034375,"end":11875.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11878.49534375,"end":11880.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11880.90846875,"end":11880.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11880.942218750002,"end":11881.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11881.566593750002,"end":11886.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11885.86971875,"end":11896.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11895.555968750003,"end":11936.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11902.137218750002,"end":11902.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11902.62659375,"end":11902.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11937.16971875,"end":11956.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11956.12034375,"end":11962.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11962.718468750001,"end":11977.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11978.125343750002,"end":12032.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12032.63159375,"end":12043.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12041.96346875,"end":12046.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12043.80284375,"end":12045.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12045.844718750002,"end":12057.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12049.472843750002,"end":12049.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12057.184718750003,"end":12078.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12079.594718750002,"end":12086.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12080.57346875,"end":12080.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12095.237843750001,"end":12096.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12096.570968750002,"end":12097.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12097.54971875,"end":12097.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12103.489718750003,"end":12103.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12103.86096875,"end":12103.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12103.945343750001,"end":12104.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12104.265968750002,"end":12115.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12115.79159375,"end":12121.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12122.305343750002,"end":12132.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12132.329093750002,"end":12140.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12141.20534375,"end":12144.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12144.90096875,"end":12146.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12146.655968750001,"end":12147.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12148.90034375,"end":12172.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12173.284718750001,"end":12174.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12175.22534375,"end":12179.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12180.64221875,"end":12188.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12185.907218750002,"end":12186.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12186.71721875,"end":12192.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12189.062843750002,"end":12190.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12192.690968750001,"end":12204.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12204.992843750002,"end":12211.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12211.75971875,"end":12216.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12216.704093750002,"end":12232.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12233.106593750003,"end":12247.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12248.10846875,"end":12254.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12254.672843750002,"end":12263.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12263.49846875,"end":12264.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12264.629093750002,"end":12269.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12269.320343750001,"end":12269.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12269.337218750003,"end":12269.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12269.370968750001,"end":12269.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12269.40471875,"end":12269.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12269.438468750002,"end":12270.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12270.585968750001,"end":12275.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12273.82596875,"end":12284.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12285.23346875,"end":12290.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12288.034718750001,"end":12289.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12291.325343750003,"end":12293.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12294.12659375,"end":12296.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12296.08409375,"end":12296.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12296.13471875,"end":12296.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12296.387843750003,"end":12296.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12296.40471875,"end":12299.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12297.51846875,"end":12298.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12299.03721875,"end":12299.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12299.61096875,"end":12305.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12302.73284375,"end":12303.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12304.656593750002,"end":12307.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12306.394718750002,"end":12306.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12307.508468750002,"end":12307.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12307.727843750003,"end":12311.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12308.655968750001,"end":12313.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12312.60471875,"end":12313.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12313.27971875,"end":12322.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12318.54471875,"end":12319.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12322.898468750001,"end":12332.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12333.10784375,"end":12337.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12338.102843750003,"end":12338.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12339.26721875,"end":12339.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12339.28409375,"end":12340.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12340.12784375,"end":12346.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12345.780968750001,"end":12346.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12346.75971875,"end":12346.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12346.962218750003,"end":12366.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12346.995968750001,"end":12347.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12347.839718750001,"end":12351.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12363.347843750002,"end":12369.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12366.570968750002,"end":12367.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12369.574718750002,"end":12381.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12369.878468750001,"end":12369.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12369.895343750002,"end":12371.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12371.24534375,"end":12371.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12381.589718750001,"end":12388.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12388.761593750001,"end":12393.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12393.925343750001,"end":12394.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12394.02659375,"end":12394.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12394.06034375,"end":12394.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12394.262843750003,"end":12402.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12402.86909375,"end":12406.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12406.227218750002,"end":12410.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12408.657218750002,"end":12411.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12411.82971875,"end":12419.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12418.259093750003,"end":12427.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12427.92846875,"end":12466.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12466.555343750002,"end":12473.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12479.71784375,"end":12483.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12489.488468750002,"end":12489.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12489.690968750001,"end":12490.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12490.011593750001,"end":12512.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12513.34971875,"end":12516.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12516.31971875,"end":12518.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12516.336593750002,"end":12516.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12518.125343750002,"end":12526.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12526.680968750003,"end":12537.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12538.274093750002,"end":12563.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12563.417843750001,"end":12567.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12568.075343750003,"end":12572.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12572.496593750002,"end":12576.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12576.833468750003,"end":12582.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12579.16221875,"end":12579.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12581.153468750003,"end":12585.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12582.28409375,"end":12582.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12584.511593750001,"end":12604.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12604.79534375,"end":12612.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12612.794093750003,"end":12616.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12617.45159375,"end":12635.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12631.10346875,"end":12631.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12635.01846875,"end":12639.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12636.030968750001,"end":12636.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12638.02221875,"end":12653.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12653.597843750002,"end":12682.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12682.62284375,"end":12691.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12688.37721875,"end":12688.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12691.937843750002,"end":12692.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12692.24159375,"end":12698.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12698.738468750002,"end":12705.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12705.79221875,"end":12710.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12709.926593750002,"end":12744.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12743.609093750001,"end":12747.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12746.02221875,"end":12746.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12747.65909375,"end":12747.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12747.70971875,"end":12749.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12749.852843750003,"end":12753.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12753.51471875,"end":12760.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12758.864093750002,"end":12764.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12762.492218750001,"end":12774.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12765.293468750002,"end":12766.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12766.626593750003,"end":12766.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12773.612843750001,"end":12776.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12776.464718750001,"end":12793.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12793.980968750002,"end":12795.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12795.972218750001,"end":12799.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12799.043468750002,"end":12800.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12800.511593750001,"end":12804.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12803.414093750001,"end":12803.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12803.61659375,"end":12805.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12805.118468750003,"end":12806.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12806.82284375,"end":12815.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12816.340343750002,"end":12874.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12823.360343750002,"end":12823.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12823.37721875,"end":12824.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12824.96346875,"end":12825.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12834.86909375,"end":12835.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12873.360968750003,"end":12879.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12880.735343750002,"end":12882.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12882.473468750002,"end":12887.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12887.99159375,"end":12888.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12889.13909375,"end":12913.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12912.19034375,"end":12922.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12923.09159375,"end":12928.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12930.16221875,"end":12933.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12933.773468750001,"end":12956.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12956.58846875,"end":12958.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12958.242218750001,"end":12959.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12959.38971875,"end":12959.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12959.676593750002,"end":12963.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12963.97971875,"end":12967.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12968.384093750003,"end":12968.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12968.40096875,"end":12968.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12968.72159375,"end":12971.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12970.98284375,"end":12976.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12976.821593750003,"end":12984.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12979.707218750002,"end":12979.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12983.79096875,"end":12991.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12984.972218750001,"end":12985.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12985.90034375,"end":12986.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13005.019718750002,"end":13006.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13006.487843750001,"end":13007.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13011.719093750002,"end":13011.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13011.85409375,"end":13013.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13013.91284375,"end":13013.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13013.929718750001,"end":13013.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13013.997218750003,"end":13014.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13014.030968750001,"end":13014.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13014.43596875,"end":13014.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13014.469718750002,"end":13014.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13015.347218750001,"end":13038.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13026.079718750003,"end":13026.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13026.164093750001,"end":13026.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13038.887843750003,"end":13046.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13046.65034375,"end":13105.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13073.92034375,"end":13073.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13073.987843750001,"end":13074.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13074.055343750002,"end":13074.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13074.105968750002,"end":13074.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13074.12284375,"end":13074.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13074.13971875,"end":13074.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13105.949093750001,"end":13109.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13109.864093750002,"end":13133.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13131.953468750002,"end":13132.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13133.20221875,"end":13171.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13134.636593750001,"end":13135.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13146.21284375,"end":13146.735968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13171.96409375,"end":13176.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13177.414718750002,"end":13178.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13178.59596875,"end":13182.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13182.96659375,"end":13183.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13183.13534375,"end":13189.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13189.277843750002,"end":13195.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13196.11221875,"end":13198.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13198.609718750002,"end":13203.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13203.63846875,"end":13209.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13210.067843750003,"end":13216.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13210.13534375,"end":13212.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13216.902218750001,"end":13237.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13237.30409375,"end":13264.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13264.08471875,"end":13264.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13264.101593750001,"end":13264.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13264.489718750003,"end":13268.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13268.30346875,"end":13294.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13294.544093750003,"end":13339.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13339.54971875,"end":13347.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13346.704718750003,"end":13356.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13356.77909375,"end":13357.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13357.36971875,"end":13377.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13376.387843750003,"end":13382.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13382.817218750002,"end":13384.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13385.16284375,"end":13389.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13389.617843750002,"end":13393.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13392.97596875,"end":13396.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13395.726593750001,"end":13399.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13400.19846875,"end":13402.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13402.645343750002,"end":13403.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13403.759093750003,"end":13407.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13407.589718750001,"end":13409.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13409.04096875,"end":13411.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13411.62284375,"end":13415.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13415.183468750001,"end":13415.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13415.41971875,"end":13419.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13417.731593750003,"end":13417.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13417.84971875,"end":13418.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13423.958468750003,"end":13425.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13425.81471875,"end":13429.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13427.434718750003,"end":13430.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13430.30346875,"end":13439.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13439.90534375,"end":13458.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13449.473468750002,"end":13449.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13458.45096875,"end":13463.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13463.09159375,"end":13470.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13470.972218750001,"end":13474.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13474.769093750001,"end":13474.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13474.785968750002,"end":13474.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13474.988468750002,"end":13476.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13476.11909375,"end":13476.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13476.996593750002,"end":13477.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13477.97534375,"end":13486.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13494.765968750002,"end":13495.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13496.031593750002,"end":13497.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13501.465343750002,"end":13508.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13501.583468750003,"end":13501.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13501.97159375,"end":13502.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13509.059093750002,"end":13513.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13513.63221875,"end":13529.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13529.511593750001,"end":13549.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13549.89659375,"end":13552.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13552.394093750001,"end":13554.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13555.296593750001,"end":13576.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13577.082218750002,"end":13577.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13577.892218750003,"end":13578.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13578.60096875,"end":13582.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13582.634093750003,"end":13587.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13587.696593750003,"end":13601.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13601.38221875,"end":13604.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13604.554718750001,"end":13626.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13627.032218750002,"end":13627.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13628.129093750002,"end":13630.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13631.11596875,"end":13633.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13633.292843750001,"end":13636.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13635.773468750001,"end":13676.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13638.220343750003,"end":13639.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13649.30721875,"end":13649.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13676.914718750002,"end":13677.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13678.36596875,"end":13682.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13682.83784375,"end":13686.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13686.43221875,"end":13686.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13687.74846875,"end":13689.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13690.97159375,"end":13699.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13699.93221875,"end":13702.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13702.969718750002,"end":13712.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13712.470343750003,"end":13725.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13721.009093750003,"end":13721.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13721.380343750003,"end":13721.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13725.71721875,"end":13730.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13730.89784375,"end":13741.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13741.680968750003,"end":13749.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13750.641593750002,"end":13768.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13768.74846875,"end":13770.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13770.55409375,"end":13798.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13798.07721875,"end":13816.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13799.106593750003,"end":13800.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13809.906593750002,"end":13810.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13813.062218750001,"end":13813.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13816.11659375,"end":13824.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13825.02659375,"end":13831.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13832.164718750002,"end":13838.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13835.539718750002,"end":13835.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13838.52659375,"end":13841.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13842.019718750002,"end":13845.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13845.47909375,"end":13851.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13845.715343750002,"end":13845.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13845.74909375,"end":13845.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13851.58784375,"end":13861.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13861.72971875,"end":13864.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13864.480343750001,"end":13869.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13869.171593750001,"end":13873.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13874.33534375,"end":13875.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13875.58409375,"end":13876.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13876.42784375,"end":13878.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13879.785968750002,"end":13882.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13882.85721875,"end":13885.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13885.81034375,"end":13888.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13888.88159375,"end":13906.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13908.422843750002,"end":13912.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13913.56971875,"end":13914.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13919.374718750001,"end":13933.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13933.65096875,"end":13964.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13964.481593750003,"end":13970.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13970.438468750002,"end":14003.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14004.00284375,"end":14004.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14004.593468750001,"end":14008.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14007.52971875,"end":14008.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14008.238468750002,"end":14014.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14014.02659375,"end":14014.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14014.347218750001,"end":14015.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14015.039093750001,"end":14018.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14018.532218750002,"end":14018.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14018.54909375,"end":14019.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14018.92034375,"end":14039.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14022.51471875,"end":14022.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14022.56534375,"end":14022.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14035.94721875,"end":14036.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14037.989093750002,"end":14042.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14042.832218750002,"end":14042.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14042.86596875,"end":14043.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14043.473468750002,"end":14045.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14044.941593750002,"end":14045.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14045.262218750002,"end":14060.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14060.31471875,"end":14070.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14063.26784375,"end":14063.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14071.266593750002,"end":14072.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14072.565968750001,"end":14095.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14076.98721875,"end":14077.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14094.030968750001,"end":14100.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14098.958468750003,"end":14099.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14099.684093750002,"end":14112.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14101.75971875,"end":14102.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14108.05409375,"end":14108.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14110.349093750003,"end":14111.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14112.137843750003,"end":14117.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14113.386593750001,"end":14114.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14116.862843750001,"end":14119.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14118.398468750001,"end":14121.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14121.942218750002,"end":14122.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14123.32596875,"end":14124.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14124.86159375,"end":14125.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14125.637843750003,"end":14137.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14125.70534375,"end":14126.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14130.430343750002,"end":14130.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14133.737843750001,"end":14134.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14135.89784375,"end":14140.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14140.015343750001,"end":14143.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14142.917843750001,"end":14143.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14143.035968750002,"end":14143.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14143.727843750003,"end":14144.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14143.761593750001,"end":14143.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14144.183468750001,"end":14144.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14144.26784375,"end":14144.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14144.33534375,"end":14145.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14144.41971875,"end":14144.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14144.43659375,"end":14145.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14145.027218750001,"end":14166.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14147.91284375,"end":14148.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14148.13221875,"end":14148.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14152.55346875,"end":14153.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14158.83096875,"end":14159.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14159.03346875,"end":14159.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14159.40471875,"end":14159.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14162.222843750002,"end":14162.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14163.57284375,"end":14164.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14167.184093750002,"end":14173.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14174.237843750001,"end":14176.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14176.347218750001,"end":14183.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14182.101593750001,"end":14182.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14183.637218750002,"end":14187.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14187.704093750002,"end":14188.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14188.73346875,"end":14190.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14191.028468750003,"end":14201.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14201.153468750003,"end":14209.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14210.316593750002,"end":14215.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14215.09221875,"end":14215.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14215.395968750003,"end":14215.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14215.767218750003,"end":14215.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14215.83471875,"end":14215.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14215.969718750002,"end":14217.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14217.640343750001,"end":14219.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14219.73284375,"end":14233.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14234.042843750001,"end":14236.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14236.675343750001,"end":14236.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14236.860968750003,"end":14237.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14237.14784375,"end":14237.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14237.29971875,"end":14237.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14237.333468750003,"end":14241.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14241.957218750002,"end":14242.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14242.345343750003,"end":14244.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14244.505343750003,"end":14248.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14246.68221875,"end":14247.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14248.015343750001,"end":14250.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14250.52971875,"end":14253.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14254.157843750003,"end":14255.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14255.136593750001,"end":14258.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14257.65096875,"end":14275.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14272.720343750003,"end":14272.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14276.31471875,"end":14280.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14277.782843750003,"end":14277.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14277.833468750003,"end":14278.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14279.520968750003,"end":14289.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14281.157843750003,"end":14282.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14290.28721875,"end":14290.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14291.265968750002,"end":14293.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14304.968468750001,"end":14305.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14313.96284375,"end":14314.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14314.97534375,"end":14315.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14315.76846875,"end":14317.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14317.962218750003,"end":14318.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14319.329093750002,"end":14321.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14322.36659375,"end":14322.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14323.817843750003,"end":14327.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14332.59284375,"end":14336.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14334.48284375,"end":14334.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14337.570968750002,"end":14344.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14344.422218750002,"end":14344.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14344.65846875,"end":14355.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14344.675343750001,"end":14344.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14348.72534375,"end":14349.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14350.767218750003,"end":14351.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14352.927218750003,"end":14355.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14355.32346875,"end":14358.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14358.023468750001,"end":14366.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14358.90096875,"end":14360.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14365.634093750003,"end":14365.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14365.667843750001,"end":14365.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14365.75221875,"end":14366.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14367.23721875,"end":14370.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14369.363468750002,"end":14374.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14370.679718750001,"end":14371.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14372.14784375,"end":14384.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14376.737843750001,"end":14377.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14378.98221875,"end":14379.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14384.719718750002,"end":14395.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14391.06471875,"end":14391.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14392.313468750002,"end":14393.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14395.92471875,"end":14396.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14396.97096875,"end":14398.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14399.215343750002,"end":14411.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14402.370968750001,"end":14402.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14405.442218750002,"end":14405.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14405.45909375,"end":14405.610968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14405.610968750003,"end":14406.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14406.62346875,"end":14406.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14407.298468750003,"end":14407.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14407.56846875,"end":14407.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14411.53409375,"end":14411.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14411.85471875,"end":14416.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14416.360343750002,"end":14417.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14416.984718750002,"end":14419.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14420.781593750002,"end":14429.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14425.77659375,"end":14426.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14429.25284375,"end":14429.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14429.337218750003,"end":14429.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14429.438468750002,"end":14433.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14430.83909375,"end":14433.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14433.539093750001,"end":14443.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14443.664093750001,"end":14446.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14446.718468750001,"end":14449.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14449.941593750002,"end":14451.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14452.320968750002,"end":14455.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14456.320343750001,"end":14457.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14457.78846875,"end":14463.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14463.52596875,"end":14467.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14468.655968750001,"end":14471.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14471.187218750001,"end":14471.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14471.71034375,"end":14474.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14475.38909375,"end":14476.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14477.430968750003,"end":14479.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14480.417843750001,"end":14482.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14484.687218750001,"end":14486.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14487.539093750001,"end":14487.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14488.433468750001,"end":14489.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14490.289718750002,"end":14493.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14494.52534375,"end":14495.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14496.246593750002,"end":14498.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14499.672218750002,"end":14499.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14499.689093750003,"end":14501.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14499.70596875,"end":14501.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14501.781593750002,"end":14509.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14510.168468750002,"end":14520.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14520.023468750001,"end":14527.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14525.727218750002,"end":14526.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14527.39784375,"end":14534.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14534.72159375,"end":14541.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14541.437843750002,"end":14546.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14546.95596875,"end":14548.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14549.470343750003,"end":14555.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14553.38534375,"end":14553.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14555.74784375,"end":14557.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14558.802218750003,"end":14559.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14560.067843750003,"end":14569.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14570.83409375,"end":14574.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14574.816593750002,"end":14583.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14584.199093750001,"end":14585.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14585.532218750002,"end":14586.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14587.911593750003,"end":14588.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14589.04221875,"end":14597.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14598.05346875,"end":14601.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14601.95159375,"end":14603.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14603.993468750003,"end":14609.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14609.74784375,"end":14613.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14613.88221875,"end":14616.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14616.81846875,"end":14617.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14618.10096875,"end":14620.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14620.46346875,"end":14622.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14622.37034375,"end":14633.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14623.66971875,"end":14624.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14627.63534375,"end":14629.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14631.516593750002,"end":14634.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14634.773468750001,"end":14647.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14647.61534375,"end":14648.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14648.914718750002,"end":14648.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14648.94846875,"end":14649.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14649.30284375,"end":14652.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14652.137843750003,"end":14654.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14655.293468750002,"end":14655.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14655.968468750001,"end":14664.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14656.00221875,"end":14656.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14664.625343750002,"end":14665.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14665.519718750002,"end":14671.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14670.34596875,"end":14681.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14672.472218750001,"end":14673.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14679.47534375,"end":14679.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14683.22159375,"end":14687.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14688.267218750003,"end":14688.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14688.28409375,"end":14690.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14688.942218750002,"end":14690.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14690.74784375,"end":14692.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14690.882843750001,"end":14691.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14692.97534375,"end":14698.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14698.274093750002,"end":14702.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14702.88096875,"end":14714.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14714.11971875,"end":14720.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14717.12346875,"end":14717.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14721.81471875,"end":14723.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14723.77221875,"end":14723.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14723.97471875,"end":14724.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14724.81846875,"end":14724.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14724.970343750003,"end":14725.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14725.03784375,"end":14736.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14725.13909375,"end":14726.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14737.00221875,"end":14746.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14738.41971875,"end":14739.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14745.59159375,"end":14774.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14773.92471875,"end":14779.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14776.050968750002,"end":14776.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14776.962218750003,"end":14777.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14777.08034375,"end":14777.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14777.485343750002,"end":14777.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14777.637218750002,"end":14778.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14778.34596875,"end":14781.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14779.93221875,"end":14785.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14784.30284375,"end":14785.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14786.15909375,"end":14790.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14792.605343750001,"end":14792.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14799.28784375,"end":14799.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14799.96284375,"end":14800.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14802.02159375,"end":14802.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17043.460343749997,"end":17052.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17061.179093749997,"end":17064.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17064.57096875,"end":17065.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17070.865343750003,"end":17071.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17071.03409375,"end":17071.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17071.844093749998,"end":17072.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17072.350343750004,"end":17072.670968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17072.82284375,"end":17075.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17076.19784375,"end":17077.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17078.054093749997,"end":17089.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17089.59659375,"end":17090.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17090.72721875,"end":17099.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17099.569718749997,"end":17104.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17104.46346875,"end":17111.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17112.05721875,"end":17128.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17129.100968749997,"end":17145.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17145.520343750002,"end":17147.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17148.03471875,"end":17183.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17182.49346875,"end":17199.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17194.64346875,"end":17194.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17194.84596875,"end":17195.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17199.57096875,"end":17205.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17204.98784375,"end":17205.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17205.93284375,"end":17207.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17205.983468749997,"end":17206.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17207.991593749997,"end":17208.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17208.02534375,"end":17208.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17208.194093750004,"end":17210.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17210.219093749998,"end":17214.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17210.57346875,"end":17212.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17214.117218749998,"end":17220.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17221.33971875,"end":17223.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17223.398468749998,"end":17229.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17229.372218750003,"end":17231.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17231.295968749997,"end":17231.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17232.156593749998,"end":17233.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17234.40096875,"end":17242.686593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17243.78346875,"end":17247.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17248.10346875,"end":17249.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17250.482843750004,"end":17251.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17251.46159375,"end":17255.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17255.629718750002,"end":17259.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17260.202843749998,"end":17262.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17262.835343749997,"end":17263.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17264.100968749997,"end":17264.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17264.185343750003,"end":17264.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17264.33721875,"end":17269.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17264.35409375,"end":17264.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17265.11346875,"end":17265.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17265.265343749998,"end":17265.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17265.31596875,"end":17265.467843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17269.382843749998,"end":17270.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17269.703468749998,"end":17271.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17271.12096875,"end":17272.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17271.154718750004,"end":17271.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17272.06596875,"end":17274.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17275.137218750002,"end":17276.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17277.12846875,"end":17280.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17281.060343750003,"end":17285.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17285.86971875,"end":17286.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17287.422218749998,"end":17288.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17289.04221875,"end":17289.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17290.459718750004,"end":17291.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17292.18096875,"end":17306.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17306.87909375,"end":17309.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17310.23721875,"end":17313.561593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17313.81471875,"end":17327.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17327.162843750004,"end":17332.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17332.225343750004,"end":17332.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17332.562843749998,"end":17350.686593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17346.38346875,"end":17346.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17350.349093750003,"end":17357.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17354.685968750004,"end":17357.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17358.077843749998,"end":17361.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17359.71471875,"end":17359.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17359.731593750003,"end":17376.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17363.79846875,"end":17366.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17367.71346875,"end":17369.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17370.059093750002,"end":17371.155968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17372.99534375,"end":17375.999093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17376.083468750003,"end":17388.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17386.512218750002,"end":17389.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17388.419093750003,"end":17388.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17389.54971875,"end":17395.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17393.43096875,"end":17403.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17396.147843749997,"end":17396.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17397.902843750002,"end":17398.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17402.50971875,"end":17408.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17406.74534375,"end":17410.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17409.90096875,"end":17409.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17410.997843750003,"end":17431.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17429.256593750004,"end":17431.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17431.21409375,"end":17431.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17431.247843750003,"end":17431.264718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17431.365968750004,"end":17431.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17431.770968750003,"end":17431.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17431.787843750004,"end":17431.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17431.889093750004,"end":17431.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17432.074718750002,"end":17432.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17432.26034375,"end":17434.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17433.96471875,"end":17436.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17434.234718749998,"end":17434.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17435.51721875,"end":17441.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17438.38596875,"end":17438.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17439.921593749998,"end":17440.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17441.507843749998,"end":17443.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17441.676593750002,"end":17441.710343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17442.132218749997,"end":17443.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17443.65096875,"end":17445.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17445.97971875,"end":17447.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17448.69659375,"end":17451.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17453.96159375,"end":17455.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17456.29034375,"end":17457.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17457.741593749997,"end":17464.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17464.559093750002,"end":17464.592843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17464.592843749997,"end":17464.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17464.812218749998,"end":17466.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17466.22971875,"end":17467.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17467.832843750002,"end":17470.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17470.262843750003,"end":17470.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17470.41471875,"end":17476.405343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17477.367218749998,"end":17478.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17479.746593750002,"end":17483.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17483.83034375,"end":17484.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17484.218468749998,"end":17485.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17485.551593750002,"end":17486.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17486.46284375,"end":17488.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17488.25159375,"end":17489.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17488.302218750003,"end":17492.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17491.559093750002,"end":17491.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17492.301593750002,"end":17495.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":17495.372843750003,"end":17496.655343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17496.655343749997,"end":17496.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":17496.72284375,"end":17496.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":17496.89159375,"end":17514.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17498.224718750003,"end":17498.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17498.325968750003,"end":17498.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17498.427218750003,"end":17498.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17511.03284375,"end":17511.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17512.281593749998,"end":17513.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":17515.38659375,"end":17515.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17515.437218749998,"end":17515.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":17515.504718750002,"end":17515.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":17515.757843749998,"end":17515.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17516.65221875,"end":17542.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17529.460343749997,"end":17529.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17535.670343750004,"end":17535.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17535.72096875,"end":17537.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17542.234718749998,"end":17546.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17542.724093750003,"end":17544.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17546.36909375,"end":17550.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17574.85409375,"end":17576.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17576.288468749997,"end":17577.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17583.62909375,"end":17584.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17585.012843750003,"end":17585.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17585.114093750002,"end":17585.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17586.194093750004,"end":17595.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17595.374093749997,"end":17599.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17599.93034375,"end":17604.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17605.161593750003,"end":17609.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17609.700968750003,"end":17627.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17627.16659375,"end":17637.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17637.224093750003,"end":17644.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17645.020343750002,"end":17649.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17649.44159375,"end":17651.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17651.85471875,"end":17667.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17667.00846875,"end":17684.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17684.86221875,"end":17685.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17685.58784375,"end":17690.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17691.038468749997,"end":17707.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17707.474718750003,"end":17712.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17709.989093750002,"end":17718.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17718.20721875,"end":17718.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17718.240968750004,"end":17718.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17718.29159375,"end":17718.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17718.71346875,"end":17720.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17720.367218749998,"end":17737.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17737.748468750004,"end":17742.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17742.74346875,"end":17744.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17744.835968749998,"end":17748.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17748.194093750004,"end":17748.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17748.599093750003,"end":17751.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17751.95721875,"end":17752.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17752.26096875,"end":17761.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17761.84596875,"end":17766.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17767.195343749998,"end":17768.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17767.397843749997,"end":17768.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17768.342843749997,"end":17798.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17774.569718749997,"end":17775.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17775.02534375,"end":17775.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17775.12659375,"end":17775.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17799.257843749998,"end":17828.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17828.94096875,"end":17839.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17839.67346875,"end":17845.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17846.389718749997,"end":17864.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17865.053468750004,"end":17867.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17867.247218750003,"end":17870.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17873.65971875,"end":17874.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17875.14471875,"end":17880.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17880.59534375,"end":17892.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17892.677843750003,"end":17894.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17893.960343749997,"end":17899.967843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17898.11159375,"end":17908.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17901.08159375,"end":17902.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17906.684093750002,"end":17908.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17908.709093750003,"end":17949.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17948.483468749997,"end":17948.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17950.22159375,"end":17980.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17985.608468749997,"end":17988.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17988.07221875,"end":17988.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17993.708468750003,"end":18019.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17994.40034375,"end":17994.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18019.257218749997,"end":18023.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18023.91471875,"end":18033.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18033.921593749998,"end":18052.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18053.14221875,"end":18074.624093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18074.67471875,"end":18077.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18077.560343750003,"end":18088.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18088.27596875,"end":18115.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18104.796593749998,"end":18104.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18104.84721875,"end":18105.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18105.97784375,"end":18106.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18115.57971875,"end":18117.334718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18117.334718750004,"end":18119.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18119.747843750003,"end":18119.764718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18120.10221875,"end":18146.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18147.22034375,"end":18185.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18185.357843750004,"end":18186.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18187.585343749997,"end":18191.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18189.239093750002,"end":18189.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18190.79159375,"end":18205.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18205.55721875,"end":18217.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18215.04096875,"end":18216.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18217.639718749997,"end":18225.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18226.465343750002,"end":18242.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18244.25159375,"end":18250.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18252.098468750002,"end":18258.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18259.270343750002,"end":18261.835343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18262.257218749997,"end":18262.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18263.05034375,"end":18284.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18284.53221875,"end":18292.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18293.273468749998,"end":18300.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18300.88409375,"end":18301.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18302.031593749998,"end":18303.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18303.93846875,"end":18327.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18327.47909375,"end":18332.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18332.55846875,"end":18335.342843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18337.131593750004,"end":18339.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18341.232218750003,"end":18341.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18341.92409375,"end":18342.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18343.662218750003,"end":18345.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18345.94034375,"end":18350.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18352.437218749998,"end":18356.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18356.976593749998,"end":18362.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18362.69721875,"end":18369.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18370.27409375,"end":18375.927218750003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1741.798,"end":1750.145,"text":"初期委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年5月20日星期一上午9時至11時20分地點本院紅樓201會議室初期委員林沛翔等15人練習委員林德福等9人"},{"start":1769.537,"end":1795.343,"text":"立席關於交通部政務次長陳彥博等主席陳昭吉委員學生林委員沛翔代理報告四項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請交通部國家運輸安全調查委員會及經濟部進行專題報告並備質詢本日會議由交通部政務次長陳彥博等報告後繼由委員林沛翔等13人提出質詢均經相關人員分別予以答覆決定一"},{"start":1795.959,"end":1823.99,"text":"報告及尋討完畢二、委員陳素月等11人所提數面執行列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請將部級相關單位盡數以書面答覆。散會宣讀完畢。好請問在座委員對於上次會議的意思錄有沒有意見?沒有意見意思錄確定那現在介紹在場的委員林培祥委員"},{"start":1826.823,"end":1852.255,"text":"廖謙祥委員、林國成委員介紹列席官員我們歡迎數位發展部新的部長黃彥男部長政務次長林怡靜次長數位策略司蔡壽全司長"},{"start":1855.362,"end":1881.694,"text":"任信建設師鄭明中師長支援管理師牛信仁師長數位政府師王成敏師長民主網路師莊盈智師長多元創新師陳怡君副師長"},{"start":1884.775,"end":1893.781,"text":"主計處李錫東處長秘書處陳仲山處長資訊處吳英俊處長人事處莫永榮處長政風處許茂吉處長法制處張學文處長"},{"start":1914.43,"end":1940.278,"text":"數位產業署呂振華署長資通安全署謝翠娟署長國家資通安全院何全德院長行政院主計總署公務預算處檢任視察李培元"},{"start":1943.834,"end":1953.372,"text":"本日進行數位發展部業務報告及審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。請黃部長報告。"},{"start":1972.139,"end":1982.746,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家早我是數位發展部部長黃彥男以下我做下面大概10分鐘的業務報告下一張這是我們今天簡報大綱請參考下一張這個我們為了實現賴總統的科技智慧島跟"},{"start":1991.332,"end":2006.245,"text":"數位新社會我們數位發展部在近期提出了數位發展的三支鍵第一支鍵叫推動打詐工作第二支鍵叫強調數位韌性第三支鍵叫做發展數位經濟下一張"},{"start":2009.792,"end":2037.548,"text":"發展數位經濟需要一條安全又快速的數位經濟高速公路數位發展部應該是要負責就是統籌跟協調相關部會來設計建造跟發展及管理這條數位經濟高速公路這條數位經濟公路必須要有韌性的特性也就是說它必須要結合4G、5G、6G、衛星、光纖、海底電纜、微波等通訊技術"},{"start":2039.25,"end":2059.671,"text":"來確保數位經濟的韌性,發展新興數位經濟產業並管理數位經濟高速公路的安全,訂定一些法律規範安裝網路偵測及防禦工具來防止犯罪集團利用這樣的一條數位經濟高速公路來進行不當或違法的工作下一張"},{"start":2061.54,"end":2090.226,"text":"未來推動的重點就像剛剛所講的大概有三個重點就是一個打詐工作一個是數位任性一個是數位經濟下面簡報我會在每一個工作重點再做進一步的說明下一張好這個第一個工作就是打詐通報所謂這個打詐通報查詢網這個工作裡面其實我們是以大概幾個工作第一個就是我們要民眾可以如果民眾收到任何的訊息"},{"start":2091.186,"end":2108.865,"text":"議員．"},{"start":2108.865,"end":2109.065,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2131.506,"end":2145.84,"text":"當然在未來如果說有這個訊息如果確定是有問題的話我們在合法跟法律的容許之下我們會進行所謂的停止解析的工作來阻擋這樣訊息的流通下一張"},{"start":2147.666,"end":2173.902,"text":"那在技術面我們事實上有會公司協力來發展一些技術來進行阻詐跟堵詐的機制這裏面包括銀碼技術那包括短碼的跟簡訊的短碼的技術短碼跟然後短網址的技術那當然有一些組織這個這個網域這個阻擋的機制那網域阻擋機制已經我們已經開始在實施了就是說從去年一年我們有已經阻擋了4萬多件的所謂的詐騙網域"},{"start":2174.983,"end":2187.221,"text":"那另外就是我們剛剛通過的電子簽章法那這個簽章法會讓我們將來在實施打炸會有更進一步的效果因為它最主要是裡面的數位簽章可以讓我們進行所謂的實名制來下一張"},{"start":2189.96,"end":2204.559,"text":"好那這個第三關支付是我們過去的確在詐騙上很多利用這樣的平台在做詐騙那經過我們這樣的處理以後原來第三關支付的業者也登記有一萬多家那經過我們的能量登錄管理以後"},{"start":2205.02,"end":2225.476,"text":"現在目前只有53家通過我們的所有能量登錄那因為這樣關係所以我們提供了所謂的第三萬支付的查詢跟通報平台那因為這樣的一個平台的設置我們大量阻止的這個所謂的在第三萬支付上的詐騙那有一個資料就是我們阻擋的相當多"},{"start":2225.896,"end":2239.402,"text":"那因為這個這樣的一個合作第三次合作跟我們金管會合作在112年我們整個整體政府的效率已經阻擋了大概跟扣押的這個所謂的這個詐騙金額高達將近93億94億左右再下一張"},{"start":2246.448,"end":2275.4,"text":"那在這個遊戲點數方面這個金流的詐騙遊戲點數也是一種詐騙的一個管道那我們也在這裡面推動了幾個工作一個就是遊戲的延遲錄點那另外就是點數詐騙的封鎖平台的鎖卡平台那因為這樣的實施我們從過去每個月看到1600個左右的詐騙案到目前在今年的4月已經下降到差不多100多件當然我們還需要努力但是已經看到明顯的成果再下一張"},{"start":2277.101,"end":2294.493,"text":"打詐裝法對我們來講是非常重要那有四個行業是我們所監管的那這四個行業裡面打詐裝法主要是讓我們有權利要求這些業者要落地他必須在法律代表那因為這樣關係他必須要配合我們的打詐的工作"},{"start":2295.433,"end":2309.012,"text":"然後另外也就是說我們會要求他進行所謂的實名制在上面這個不管是廣告的出資人或廣告者本身都要提供實名制那這樣的話也會減少詐騙的可能跟管道再下一張"},{"start":2310.325,"end":2328.653,"text":"那在第二個工作就強調數位韌性那數位韌性主要是我們要建構多元易子且安全的通訊網路那裡面包括海陸空的應變網路那我們要提升通傳網路的防護跟普及通傳網路的建設那主要目的當然是後製我們通傳網路的韌性再下一張"},{"start":2330.325,"end":2346.073,"text":"那另外工作就是我們必須要開始規劃我們的評估的資源尤其是未來很快的6G就會進行可能會進行開始我們的研發跟部署所以我們在先期研究上我們在研究先推進網路的評估的一個資源的整備跟干擾的研究"},{"start":2346.693,"end":2366.065,"text":"那當然衛星的一些評估的釋放跟衛星評估的準備那衛星還有衛星的主網的驗證然後供這個測量網的一些測試的一些環境的條件那一些還有就是我們數位通傳資源的規規費的制度然後等等等這個工作都是正在進行中再下一個"},{"start":2368.026,"end":2390.192,"text":"再來就是一個治安法的推動。治安法我想有一個很重要的目的是合併我們訴發部的治安署是治安的主要的勸責機關。那我們就可以用這樣的擴大我們集合的範圍。然後另外就強化特定非公務機關的治安的要求。那同時也修正國家私通安全發展方案。那裡面當然包括人才培育等工作。"},{"start":2390.692,"end":2400.948,"text":"那當然我們必須跟國際合作,資安是個國際的連環。那我們利用這樣的一個工作能夠跟國際進行各樣的演練,跟各樣的親自的交換。再下一張。"},{"start":2402.681,"end":2422.553,"text":"再來就是我們要強化國家的治安防護這裡面當然就是對我們的治安的防治機制跟CIP需有更好的防治那我們有個治安的聯防由我們數位發展部來負責那我們在過去這一年已經查獲從我們的公務部門的電子郵件我們大概4.3億電子郵件裡面查獲大概900多萬的二億郵件"},{"start":2426.235,"end":2436.236,"text":"那當然這裡面包括有每個月我們攔截了13億次的資安攻擊然後有發布了92萬的親自的威脅的訊息好再下一張"},{"start":2437.884,"end":2459.324,"text":"那當然人才是非常重要所以我這邊強調就是說我們在預計在兩年配合1000名的資安人才是公務部門的資安人才那當然我們公務部門的資安人才需要的量也蠻多的那從這樣的一個program我們可以增加那當然另外一個我們也推動國家考試機制能夠從高普考裡面增加資安人才的禁用再下一張"},{"start":2461.042,"end":2486.504,"text":"那當然我們在這個政府的這個服務方面資安的服務方面跟這個我們韌性服務方面我們有一個服務的這個韌性巡航的建檢這裡面包括我們有這個資安法的這個防禦的這個集合團跟服務團那當然我們關於這個所謂數位巡檢可以幫提高我們政府資訊系統的可用性、易用性跟可維護性這個工作也是我們未來的工作重點"},{"start":2489.006,"end":2513.428,"text":"再來我們就談到數位經濟的發展當然數位經濟的發展AI是一個很重要的目標那我們就是要推動AI產業化產業AI化當然一個工作就是投射南北的AI生態園區我們必須上中下游整合這是台灣的機會然後希望這樣的一個推動然後能夠希望在我們在未來能夠在我們的這個產業能夠快速的發展再來下一張"},{"start":2514.669,"end":2537.566,"text":"再來就是我們關於這個資安方面資安產業也是很重要的產業那113年已經大概整個產值我們國內的資安產值已經超過800億那我們預計未來幾年會有更多成長機會尤其是上中下軟硬整合我們應該會有更大的更快速的成長那當然這裡面我們也要強化不只是政府還有產業的資安防護再下一張"},{"start":2539.191,"end":2560.718,"text":"這個我們的產值畫面我們目前的所謂的這個產值這個我們把這個這個產值我們預計因為AI的導入推出這個AI還有資安還有整個軟體的這樣整個整合我們預計因為AI的熱潮跟AI的機會也就是說上中下整以後我們在很多產業就會利用AI會有很多應用"},{"start":2561.258,"end":2569.527,"text":"這樣的軟體跟服務我們預計希望在2026年能夠破造這是我們的一個很重要的一個政策的目標再下一張"},{"start":2571.292,"end":2590.504,"text":"人才永遠是一個我們的一個產業的一個很重要的基礎那我們當然就是在數位轉型畫面我們有所謂的提大使訓練年輕人來做從事數位轉型的工作那我們另外也要延展國際數位人才過去我們已經發卡就是所謂數位領域就業卡有303張在這個我們還會繼續持續進行更擴大"},{"start":2597.407,"end":2612.454,"text":"再來就是我們那個數據的應用我們在過去我們的open data我們的資料的開放讓很多產業能夠利用能夠發展那未來我們還會持續的進行尤其是在隱私保護上我們會做更多的加強的技術的研發跟應用"},{"start":2614.755,"end":2630.359,"text":"這個以上是我在這個我們的業務報告的一個簡單的一個說明那我們進入所謂的另外一個今天要做的事情是預算解凍案那再下一張我們在113年目前預算被凍結有11案總共計合是6億850萬2000元那再下一張"},{"start":2639.022,"end":2656.975,"text":"希望是因為我們工作包括積極推動達薩工作強化國家數位韌性及驅動數位經濟發展的三支箭達到心力及防病的雙重效果各項施政都需要配合這個數位發展部的循序推動因為因應業務的實際需求"},{"start":2659.236,"end":2681.637,"text":"以上預算凍結吭請各位委員支持並同意相關經費的凍資能夠讓各項業務能夠順利推動謝謝謝謝委員的支持謝謝現在要進行巡打先宣告一下事項巡打時間出席委員6加1分鐘"},{"start":2684.386,"end":2709.796,"text":"列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘左右中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":2725.285,"end":2727.66,"text":"好那就麻煩主席邀請我們黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":2736.322,"end":2757.993,"text":"好 部長好 部長 這個其實以我們選區民意代表來說 那選區民意代表大概最關心的應該是選區內的一個網路的一個普及度的一個問題 那我們數位發展部有針對 就是有定性一些辦法 就是針對法定的偏遠地區 那有一些補助的要點 對不對"},{"start":2759.734,"end":2765.682,"text":"好那這些補助的要點我不曉得您上任後有沒有同仁跟您報告怎樣叫做法定的偏遠地區"},{"start":2768.8,"end":2793.099,"text":"委員長,這是平原地區的服務的普及,那個矽脂東山里。第一個我想Fundamental原則是我們希望這個數位落差能夠縮減。所以各個鄉里應該都有很好的數位建設,包括網路的建設。所以這是我們推動的一個主要的一個方向。再來未來我上的也是一個操作方向去努力。"},{"start":2793.419,"end":2819.064,"text":"所以原則上我們現在的辦法大概是用行政區的平均人口來當作一個劃設的要點嘛對不對但是其實如果說有接觸過地方民政、理政的這個政府體系應該很清楚其實同一個行政區它的人口密度也會有相當大的落差可能就像一個新北市有一個新北市有一個板橋區可能新北市也有平溪區那在每一個行政區下面它可能"},{"start":2820.069,"end":2846.243,"text":"每個區可能像有的林口它一個里就兩萬多人了那有些像比較在平溪啊或者是比較偏向的地方它一個里可能就幾百人而已一百多個人所以說如果說單純以行政區來做一個補助的一個當作一個單位的話那可能會發現一個行政區它有的地方它的人口很密集它有些地方的人口它是非常稀少那它的通訊網路是非常的脆弱的"},{"start":2846.903,"end":2860.423,"text":"那我不曉得這個補助要點或者是這個補助的對象的這個基準有沒有放寬的一個可能性不是放寬應該是說因地制宜的調整這樣子這個我請我們這個市長來做個更進一步的說明謝謝委員"},{"start":2863.274,"end":2884.412,"text":"我想就以委員的以細節我們來為例我們舉例那剛剛委員其實說得很好我們針對普及服務這個機制已經從鄉鎮因為剛剛我們說的很多區他雖然人口低於51%或高於50%平均密度的五分之一但是他其實很多村里"},{"start":2884.912,"end":2885.613,"text":"所以之後會再調整嗎"},{"start":2903.57,"end":2927.461,"text":"接下來請問一下另外一個問題就是我前一陣子也有去太平島當然我們這一次的業務概況報告裡面有提到我們太平島的通訊我們在113年4月的時候有提供太平島SES的中軌衛星訊號強化島上的通訊衛星但我們同樣的在我們報告裡面有看到說"},{"start":2928.806,"end":2954.335,"text":"第12頁的部分有提到說我們目前有關於軌道衛星的申請。SES目前是只有阿爾康資料處理股份有限公司有在有申請嘛,申請許可。那我們中華電信股份有限公司是以OneWeb的這個衛星來當作一個衛星的一個合作對象嘛。那我想確認一下因為太平島他算是比較軍事這個"},{"start":2957.683,"end":2959.104,"text":"中華電信目前有取得SES的合作衛星嗎?夥伴啊?"},{"start":2980.117,"end":3007.863,"text":"因為現在的剛剛提的衛星有兩種一個是用驗證的方式所以中華電信在太平島上面現在SES是驗證是透過POC的方式在處理那原先還有ST2是用商轉的方式是高軌衛星目前太平島因為是軍事區就像委員說的他是管制區所以他的這個比較管制上比較嚴格所以他上面的通訊網路不需要透過這個另外的一個"},{"start":3008.903,"end":3009.944,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3035.896,"end":3050.112,"text":"就以不管是我們台灣本島或是外島將來應該都是可以以100%的涵蓋率來改善我們全台灣的通訊網路設備這應該是沒有問題嗎?應該沒問題啊衛星在天上那個應該沒有什麼特別的視角除了你在山谷裡面"},{"start":3050.532,"end":3065.362,"text":"是,所以100%那我們這樣子數位我們數發部啦如果說以100%為目標的話我們有沒有設定一個目標年希望能夠我們全台灣利用衛星網路在民國幾年之前可以達到100%的數位網路的服務"},{"start":3067.25,"end":3084,"text":"今年底他接下來的目標是今年底所以就是今年2024年底2024年底我們全台灣可以透過衛星網路達到全台灣除了剛剛部長講的可能地形的關係原則上是涵蓋全台灣100%的一個網路通訊設備的服務"},{"start":3086.641,"end":3107.203,"text":"好那這部分的一些基礎設置設備建置啦因為微信網路還是有一些需要有一些這個資訊接收的一些設備嘛那原來上這些東西是我們也是同步都會把它建置好嗎對都會引進好就是今年為目標然後全台灣100%的涵蓋率來完成這樣子好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":3112.86,"end":3130.82,"text":"要先請委員發言完畢,現在請林國成委員發言請我們黃部長"},{"start":3140.632,"end":3140.652,"text":"委員長"},{"start":3161.451,"end":3176.065,"text":"我要請教我們部長因為過去你在產業界來我要請教你一個就是今天的報告補充理由跟這一本的業務報告"},{"start":3178.187,"end":3201.785,"text":"到底要用哪一本?沒關係,不用緊張啦,保證我們是來探討問題我要請教你這一本有沒有看過?有,看兩遍那這些是榮收版對,這個是把重點在業務報告的前期也就是把因為我們要做的事情很多那我把重點未來的前期部長,我告訴你這一本我都拜讀過"},{"start":3203.55,"end":3220.502,"text":"就跟唐鳳部長70%完全一模一樣本席非常在乎也一直在提醒我記得NCC就被我退過一次到現在都還沒有補部長我只是告訴你這一篇裡面"},{"start":3221.303,"end":3241.792,"text":"只有第1項、第8項、第9項是新的文字更改其他一模一樣計報告委員因為施政要延續所以我們不肯是我知道啦施政要延續但是新的部長跟舊的部長作法會不一樣嘛就像你這一本"},{"start":3242.532,"end":3257.887,"text":"你就談得很清楚這是你要施政的這些方向所以我要建議部長我要建議部長沒有苛責的意識我希望你這個榮收板再補一份書面資料給各"},{"start":3258.467,"end":3281.223,"text":"委員這個這一本反而是清清楚楚啊知道黃部長要做的跟那個唐部長完全不一樣啊所以這裡不一樣就是你的三支箭跟那個唐部長完全不一樣啊其實我蠻在乎這個風氣也就是不要延續性的政策我贊同"},{"start":3281.863,"end":3311.186,"text":"但是不要一字不漏的這樣去抄這不是一個經營企業或者一個部會應有的所以這點我給部長一個建議好不好所以希望你這個很明確未來你要做的事情是跟委員來報告接下來要審預算所以你叫我們如何去支持你的預算很簡單就是你的方向跟你的報告我們認為可行我們就支持啊"},{"start":3311.866,"end":3312.627,"text":"不是嗎?"},{"start":3312.627,"end":3318.311,"text":"所以部長,就是好像說不用緊張啦,這我們就要探討一個理由啦,好不好?"},{"start":3318.311,"end":3335.164,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝。那另外一個齁,另外一個,我還是這樣啦齁,我還是鼓勵啊,你是產官學都做過,所以我還是蠻希望部長在這個部分要發揮你的常財,我一再提醒政務官,"},{"start":3335.905,"end":3358.068,"text":"不能用政黨色彩在做老百姓的事立法委員也是在做老百姓的事部長也是在做老百姓的事所以在這個部分我真的蠻期待我們黃部長在這個部分真的要為老百姓來做事那我看到你的報告基本上當然你有你的新的做法"},{"start":3359.929,"end":3379.416,"text":"另外一個我又要跟部長來探討的就是詐騙礦場的這個部分那當然因為你這個三字件這裡面確確實實有這個部分那這個部分我還是覺得現在包括檢察官"},{"start":3380.39,"end":3408.142,"text":"包括任何老百姓的感覺在這個部分已經大家可以看部長你可以看我們近5年來的詐騙案子他日益跟一心喔他完全他的態度跟以前打打電話去詐騙的動作現在不是喔只要簡信傳給你一案就被騙所以他是日心夜意的這些"},{"start":3408.962,"end":3428.853,"text":"的那個方法所以我要認為數位部要比他們更先進這是我個人的主張跟個人的建議所以啊在這個部分我不曉得我們部長針對這個部分應該要如何來應對是不是我時間給你你可以說明一下嗎好謝謝委員"},{"start":3429.833,"end":3457.463,"text":"那個我在我的打那個三支箭裡面第一支箭就打炸那打炸我體驗第一個就是說我們今天有個工具就是我們打炸法已經出了行政院希望委員能夠支持然後趕快通立法通過通過之後我們會對這個這個打炸至少有法可罰可以可以管理他們會這個比如說比如說廣告平台上必須落地等等等會實名制都我們都可以強迫他們進行那我們另外的重要工作是我們會有一個打炸的通報查詢網"},{"start":3458.183,"end":3478.882,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3478.942,"end":3499.321,"text":"如果你不要輕易相信收到了任何訊息如果不確定就到我們的打炸查詢網去看是不是已經有人通報過或者希望能夠在所謂的因為我們打炸有幾個步驟試炸是第一步如果我們知道這是詐騙訊息我們就不會被騙所以我們會加強試炸工作從這個服務來提供給民眾做一個很快的判斷"},{"start":3499.881,"end":3523.184,"text":"好部長這裡面有兩個問題打詐當然就是要追根就底現在有國內的不管是LINE也好什麼也好有幾個管道這個是國際涉在國際在台灣我們是沒有辦法追的這個第一你如何去突破第二因為打詐的責任"},{"start":3525.086,"end":3550.658,"text":"數位的部分是你負責但是治安調查的部分是內政部負責是跨部會的這個部分所以你如何去把它整合或者建議行政院要有一個指揮專責機構這個很重要喔不要做個人做個人這樣到最後所有的所有的法條過了以後還是前功盡棄這個部分這兩個請部長回答"},{"start":3553.519,"end":3574.946,"text":"我們本來就是一個跨部會的合作那行政院這個成績我們已經有個打詐的一個這樣的辦公室但是我們剛剛講這個打詐這個我們這個打詐查詢網會讓我們很快的能夠通報整個包括警政署包括其他部會來進行打詐的工作然後希望能夠很快速做處理來加速我們處理這個打詐的這個這樣的一個時程讓打詐的這個能夠詐騙時間減少很多"},{"start":3579.247,"end":3604.033,"text":"另外一個就是國外的這些LINE阿或者臉書這個部分打詐專法會要求這些人在台灣要落地或者有法律代表我們會跟這些人就是他們如果不配合包括打詐工作我們可以對他罰款那希望用這個方式來強迫他們跟著我們配合部長我這樣大概啦齁我還是了解但是剛剛我所執行的我希望你剛剛的簡便的報告這個寫的比"},{"start":3606.934,"end":3629.027,"text":"比這個你的報告書裡面更清楚我希望你補給我們委員會所有的委員更了解啦好不好那我也啟齊啊就是部長要好好的來把這份工作把它做好因為打炸這些不管幾支箭啊有成果就有箭沒有成果完全沒有箭好不好我還是啟齊你好不好好謝謝好謝謝林國成委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":3644.529,"end":3647.092,"text":"謝謝主席本期邀請我們數法部黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":3657.533,"end":3680.325,"text":"部長今天很多人都在關心那個大片的問題我想你剛上任大家一定也期許數發部在未來打詐方面要有相當的作為那你也把打詐好像列為你非常重要的工作所以你特別提出打詐的方法等等之類的那你覺得現在詐騙最嚴重的是在哪裡網路詐騙"},{"start":3683.838,"end":3688.783,"text":"那根據我們行政檢察局警政署的統計資料現在投資詐騙案就是騙你來買投資買股票大概佔了31%"},{"start":3700.663,"end":3719.414,"text":"可能是因為所謂投資股票就是會有賺錢,人性的貪戀。現在的很多廣告都是以投資詐騙,智能占了三成。比前年,去年就11000多件,比前年多了快80%。"},{"start":3721.38,"end":3738.387,"text":"所以成長最多就是這種所謂騙你來投資詐騙尤其用名人用一些社會的名人當作誘餌那現在你覺得最大問題是什麼為什麼這種網路網路廣告詐騙廣告這麼猖獗"},{"start":3740.646,"end":3764.327,"text":"那個 報告委員 那個當然我們有幾個平臺 那個就是剛剛講像Meta的那個Facebook 然後Line 然後像Google這些平臺 那我想這個很多廣告是從這邊出來的啦 那我們當然就是說 我剛剛特別強調就是說我們希望打造專法通過之後 這些廣告平臺商會在台灣設法律代表或是落地啦"},{"start":3764.787,"end":3792.398,"text":"那如果他們能夠那個配合我們政府來做眨眨工作把這些凍結之後我相信這個方面在所謂名人廣告各方面應該會大量而且是我們之前我們推動現在我們現在有電子簽章法然後數位簽章通過之後我們可以要求登廣告的第一個一定要一定要有數位簽章一定要是確認是KYC是本人才能夠包括廣告投放跟出資者都要能夠那現在法例沒有通過以前你就你就沒辦法管他嗎"},{"start":3793.278,"end":3820.376,"text":"法律沒有通過以前我們現在的做法是這個基本上就立法修法需要一段時間啊之前就是因為這個數位服務法卡了那麼久啊對所以你現在不能說我們必須要有法律通過啦你才能做事情所以以前的通報是這樣子跟委員報告以前通報是我們民眾報告到165然後165處理這個時程可能要隔個比如說半天一天以上時間才會通報這個這個向Facebook去處理那我們現在這個剛剛講這個打造通報這個查詢網"},{"start":3823.338,"end":3848.367,"text":"你現在要建立一個打詐的平台你是準備要取代165我們那個還是要做現在是一個疑似詐騙跟真正被詐騙是兩回事所以疑似詐騙就可以到通報來查詢我跟你說啦你現在最重要還是源頭管理啦你現在是他律嘛你現在講的是政府要去約束這些平台"},{"start":3849.207,"end":3870.607,"text":"但是在所謂的打詐第一個要做的就是這些平台要自律目前他們完全不做相關的事情根據我們政府檢證署統計的資料我們把詐騙的廣告拉下來那數量是非常大好幾萬筆廣告通通拉下來但是你拉下來以後沒多久他又會上來"},{"start":3871.528,"end":3891.364,"text":"而且廣告內容一模一樣表示說這些平台都是被動在處理當我們發現這是詐騙你通報他他會做啦但是新的上來他不管啦你聽我意思嗎?他要賺錢啊但這些平台都忘記他還是有社會責任啦"},{"start":3894.495,"end":3908.965,"text":"所以我們應該要求他們啦你現在要先自律啦你平台應該要先去核實要去了解這些尤其是商業廣告啦目前你剛講的那種實名制政治廣告要不要實名制"},{"start":3910.416,"end":3932.397,"text":"所有廣告都要實名證沒錯嗎現在沒有啦現在只有政治廣告啊現在只有政治廣告要認證啦那商業廣告為什麼不要詐騙在商業廣告嘛所以我們就打詐狀況通過之後他們也對你現在雖然是無法可管對現在是無法但是期望很快但是你應該要求這些平台業者啦"},{"start":3933.663,"end":3937.646,"text":"我會常常找他們來我辦公室喝咖啡啦然後道德勸說啦那這個我們會繼續建立跟他們的關心希望他們"},{"start":3961.647,"end":3963.509,"text":"我會跟他們講,你們如果不配合,我以後就跟大家宣傳,以後在臉書上看到廣告都不會了。"},{"start":3977.895,"end":4005.688,"text":"他拉下來的照片廣告很多啦跟上去的差不多啦就說這個東西可以用敢講道德在法規通知過以之前道德勸說威脅然後看看能不能就是所以這些平台業者他現在怎麼對付你就是你有通報好我就配合你政府拉下來但是呢新的廣告來錢送上來我廣告費照收一括照片的幾乎啦甚至有些內容一模一樣的照上這樣你怎麼抓得了"},{"start":4008.129,"end":4032.895,"text":"所以既然我們的政治廣告都要求實名制的,未來商業廣告也是一定要,對,這我已經同意已經發生了那麼多那麼多的詐騙案件嘛,是不是這樣子對,我想就是我們從法規從剛剛講就是這個從很多的這個我們私底下我們都可以去要求啦希望他們配合度高一點這樣然後看看這個所謂的這個人民跟詐騙廣告或是各式各樣在平台業者的廣告能夠"},{"start":4033.995,"end":4034.496,"text":"數位服務法你預計的?"},{"start":4063.484,"end":4075.231,"text":"打大專法打大專法打大專法對打大專法將來這些商都要去因為歐盟大概是全世界最早通過數位服務法的地方你看到今年"},{"start":4077.131,"end":4092.43,"text":"我們的數位服務法開第一槍就是去調查推特啦推特上播不實的訊息在那個以色列跟巴勒斯坦那個的那個戰爭的時候你知道吧也就是說所謂的政府該管的不是只有詐騙"},{"start":4094.832,"end":4114.957,"text":"現在因為詐騙最嚴重所以我們大家當然關注點在這裡但是我希望你會還有其他很多我們應該要處理的你必須同步的就是我們的法律也必須要跟得上我希望在你上任以後應該盡速推動相關的立法工作好不好跟社會以及跟國會議員應該多做溝通好謝謝部長"},{"start":4119.192,"end":4138.042,"text":"林俊憲委員發言完畢部長先等一下那剛才不是威脅業者應該是督促相關業者請你更正好那我們現在請林佩祥委員發言"},{"start":4150.492,"end":4151.854,"text":"主席有請黃部長請黃部長部長"},{"start":4166.031,"end":4182.277,"text":"歡迎來到這個政治界那這個是一個您的您現在進入是2024年這是個任重道遠的事件最現實就是說我們現在看到的所有民眾關心的全部不只是國家關心甚至全球關心的都是您的業務"},{"start":4183.377,"end":4207.407,"text":"請看一下這邊全球2024年十大風險兩年之內有關直接有關數位發展部的就有一跟四假訊息跟不安全的網路世界十年之內全球關心的裡面就有三項跟我們這個速發部有絕對的關係錯誤訊息AI不良技術跟不安全的網路世界甚至社會的極端化都有關係下一頁"},{"start":4209.568,"end":4238.057,"text":"而最現實是今年今年五大大家最關心的風險裡面有兩個一個是AI一個是網路攻擊所以說本席認為您在這上面來講你其實說AI內閣倒不如如果講這是AI內閣的話其實您數位發展部的責任非常的重因為我們想到AI我們不會想到行政院我們不會想到其他什麼法務部內政部我們只會想到讓我們數位發展部做了些什麼"},{"start":4239.037,"end":4264.203,"text":"剛剛林國成委員講的很好那本書如果都是照以前唐鳳部長留下來的話那會讓我們國人非常的失望因為我如果記得沒有錯的話在這個所謂的打架打炸國家隊基本上我對國家隊這三個字都是充滿的失望從頭到尾我沒有聽到國家隊真的對我們民眾特別有感打炸國家隊三大戰犯裡面數位發展部NCC金管會"},{"start":4265.578,"end":4270.655,"text":"那我會認為說這就是上面來講我們先直接從打詐開始講解好了下一頁"},{"start":4272.029,"end":4290.153,"text":"這是我們知道全國人民認為的事情也就是詐騙訊息接受的經驗加起來不多87.9%比87%好一點將近88%也就是如果直接換算成全國人民的話我們將近2300萬人裡面有2100萬人收到詐騙訊息請問部長您怎麼看這個現象"},{"start":4296.954,"end":4326.954,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4328.215,"end":4355.633,"text":"我完全認同你講的話但是我也必須幫您開脫一句話這句話我希望您帶給行政院因為打詐也好有關避免我剛剛講的所有風險來好你數位發展部一個部來處理所有的事情你預算不見得比人家高但是你這樣負責的東西比人家重得多而全國民眾看到的都是你他們甚至不會把NCC放在第一線全部都是數位發展部該做什麼數位發展部既然你是科技部數位發展部但是如果做不到就是你的問題"},{"start":4356.454,"end":4374.23,"text":"因為所有人都只看懶人包所有人都只看標題式標題式的新聞如果有什麼地方做不好打詐詐騙科技詐騙出來賴詐騙出來FB詐騙出來名人詐騙出來第一個想到的數位發展部他們不會想到NCC他們不會想到金管會他們不會想到內政部對吧"},{"start":4375.57,"end":4394.519,"text":"我剛剛就委員報告就是說這個打炸的這個工作是這是跨部會的整合要有效果一定是資訊流人流跟金流要一起合作那當然這裡面我們在資訊流我們盡量去阻擋那當然我就剛講因為資訊流管道太多不可能完全擋得住所以最重要還是在教導民眾試炸"},{"start":4395.439,"end":4424.619,"text":"那事詐就有所謂的我剛剛講的打詐呼這樣查詢網就通報查詢網就是讓民眾去增加事詐的能力能夠希望能夠民眾減少因為你收到假訊息你也知道說這個是假的你就比較不會進入所謂金流那一段的詐騙部長這就是再下一頁部長這就是講你請看這個我後面的powerpoint這才是最我覺得本席覺得最悲哀最可惜的地方我們居然有43%的民眾如果被詐騙了之後居然是自認理虧耶"},{"start":4425.839,"end":4437.59,"text":"那現在不管說是身為技術deep fake還是說AI生成的工具還是生成是AI的所有東西導致說我們上次看到我們葛如軍委員去質詢前行政院長陳建仁的書後"},{"start":4441.013,"end":4467.143,"text":"那陳建仁陳院長不會覺得這個不會是個幽默感而是直接的大發雷霆因為他覺得他被騙了可是他被騙了之後呢他還有人可以去抱怨因為他知道誰在騙他他知道誰在開這個玩笑但是一般的人有什麼人可以他有什麼人可以去幫忙這件事情呢他們向警政機關求助向反詐騙相關單位求助但是最多的時候啊算了"},{"start":4467.563,"end":4479.774,"text":"那我們剛剛前一夜我們看到他們詐騙金額都落在哪裡一萬到五萬甚至再來再要告訴十萬以上在我們我記得去年如果沒有錯的話好像在我們全國的GDP好像將近3%被詐騙的金額這實在是件"},{"start":4482.617,"end":4495.35,"text":"害人聽聞的事情對吧?對,同意不過跟委員報告我剛剛講就是說我們其實你這邊列的是被騙但是事實上我們希望減少是被騙也就是說詐騙的數目的數目不會減少但是我們希望被騙的少很多"},{"start":4499.594,"end":4524.907,"text":"那為什麼可以被騙少很多就是我們用一些科技技術比如AI技術剛剛講用我們這個打造查詢網跟這個這個通報查詢網希望被騙能夠大量減少這是我們一開始能夠做的最主要工作也是希望在短期之內能夠看到的就會我們書發部的一些措施能夠讓民眾知道什麼樣去查詢然後減少被騙的機會跟次數這是我我們其中的目標"},{"start":4525.507,"end":4552.986,"text":"被騙人的訊息可能不會減少可是被騙的次數一定會減少部長其實我剛剛其實您這個數位發展部裡面最重要的業務好像不是打雜而是所謂的民主網路跟所謂其他的這個數位經濟的發展但是這方面前面我當然讀過你們的整個預算我對你們後來凍結預算我還有其他的意見不過因為時間的關係我想提醒部長一件蠻重要的事也就是剛剛召委特地提過的事"},{"start":4554.43,"end":4582.77,"text":"我比較希望說我在看到未來的每一位部長上面來講所謂接地氣或言語上面的用詞要相當的精準因為每一個言語上面的用詞不精準的話會讓人家誤解說您是否對這份工作是不是不夠尊重當我們聽到一些接地氣的語言的時候我就不再最初接地氣語言是寫什麼我們希望是down to earth不是單單純純的slang"},{"start":4590.638,"end":4609.489,"text":"我希望這句話,我知道部長是長官學的高手我知道部長是有國外經驗的CEO所以請您好好做好您特地從業界轉來CEO的職責。以上。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。謝謝林佩祥委員的發言。下一位我們請李坤澤召委。"},{"start":4616.357,"end":4619.819,"text":"謝謝主席請一下黃部長有請黃部長部長您好當然林佩祥委員剛才已經提到重點打詐是數位部的一個工作之一當然對於推動"},{"start":4640.267,"end":4655.922,"text":"護行的這樣的一個數位政府以及推動數位產業經濟甚至是資安這都是數位部的一個重要的工作項目那當然目前大家都集中在於相關的詐騙的這樣的一個議題這也是對於詐騙在數位領域"},{"start":4661.607,"end":4676.345,"text":"的這樣一個案件竹簾上升成為國家重要的議題因為他造成個人或是企業的重大損失之外對於社會的安全跟穩定其實也造成很大的衝擊"},{"start":4677.586,"end":4700.316,"text":"所以我想很多的委員大家都重視相關的對於打詐尤其是網路詐欺的這個部分那其實我們看到2023年的詐騙件數的一個統計詐騙的總件數是成長了將近三成那其中最大的部分就是投資詐欺的件數成長了將近八成這個"},{"start":4702.723,"end":4730.236,"text":"嚴重的狀況大家對於數位部的要求跟期待就會越來越高那相關的前五大的詐騙類型包括投資詐欺解除分歧的這種付款的詐欺ATM或者是這種假網路的拍賣購物或者是一般購物的詐欺就是偽稱買賣這個部分甚至假愛情交友"},{"start":4730.956,"end":4743.661,"text":"都建樹的也都非常的多那我們現在社會大眾對於數位部新的部長我們期待你對於打造有更具體的策略以及你預期的目標給你時間簡單說明一下"},{"start":4747.583,"end":4772.484,"text":"謝謝委員我一直強調就是說我們在這裡面第一個當然是法的通過電子簽商法跟這個所謂打造裝法大概應該短期之內通過這給我們一些工具對這個一些我們尊管的業者像網路平台廣告商、電商、第三方制服還有遊戲商能夠做進一步的監管跟處理也可以要求他們配合我們打造的政府的打造的一些行動跟工作"},{"start":4772.944,"end":4798.775,"text":"那當然在我剛一直強調說我們希望有個很快的一個打造一個服務我能夠提供這個打造通報跟查詢那民眾可以很快的去查詢我現在收到訊息是不是可能詐騙那用這個方式我們很快把這個東西再分流然後讓這個各個部位能夠很快看到最新的詐騙的方的一些訊息能夠就即時的處理那當然我們會推動像這個所謂的短碼跟簡碼的這樣的短碼跟短網址還有"},{"start":4802.516,"end":4819.024,"text":"這個所謂的銀馬的系統來讓我們能夠瞭解什麼樣的訊息是可信任就建立可信任訊息的傳遞的方式而讓我們民眾的可信任的這個訊息的這些相關的建構你預計在什麼時候之內可以完成初步的建構呢"},{"start":4819.784,"end":4848.242,"text":"對111這樣的一個建構已經推動而且我們目前得到的效果還蠻好的就是政府的這個端碼那另外就是說關於這個我也跟其他部會談過像這個以後的像金管會的銀行也會有端碼然後我們的這個其他部會如果是一個可信任的商業的公司都應該要申請端碼這個應該是在短期之內短期是多短期這個目前是期望在年底之前大概在年底之前對對對"},{"start":4849.142,"end":4868.405,"text":"希望趕快的推動當然防患這種數位的詐騙當然要加強第三方的這種支付的管理剛才提到中央政府有反詐釋法洗錢防治法科技偵查及保障法通訊保障及監察法還有"},{"start":4869.306,"end":4896.086,"text":"打擊犯罪的危害防制條例那我們看到建清檢改就是由很多的檢察官所組成的這個團體他們有多次的研討會也具體的建議要加強第三方支付管理業的這些管理那當然第三方的支付管理其實有三大難處第一個綁定信用卡手機不用進行本人的驗證第二"},{"start":4897.807,"end":4900.328,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管．"},{"start":4915.014,"end":4934.633,"text":"我們如何去做有效的這些規範如何要求業者建立數據庫或者是要記錄金流跟交易的這些記錄以及KYC就是身份確認要求平台來做商業的確認要建立聯訪的平台來做處理跟規範"},{"start":4936.234,"end":4960.9,"text":"數位部有沒有具體的做法跟目前的進度來說明一下?報告委員第一個就是說剛剛這邊有一個數目就是我們有一萬多個第三方支付的業者那我們要求他們現在做能量登錄那能量登錄結果目前只有53家通過那便於我們管理那在這53家裡面我們也要求他對這個申請的人要進行所謂的使名字KYC的驗證"},{"start":4962.08,"end":4965.263,"text":"數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況．一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":4980.756,"end":5004.171,"text":"謝謝委員給我們補充的機會就是剛剛部長提到的就是現在只有53家那通過我們登錄的部分呢那銀行那邊才能給他做虛擬賬號那虛擬賬號因為這個經過我們檢查也確認了所以不會有一萬多家的因為那個以前在商業司的時候因為他不是特許行業所以他就可以在他的營業項目說要做第三方支付可是有些並沒有來做"},{"start":5005.331,"end":5022.152,"text":"那所以我們就這一陣子將把它建立制度那部長來之後也來支持我們繼續把這樣的聯訪做得更好那打詐專法的部分在我們數位經濟那一個專章針對第三方支付也有相關的條文那所以這個是整體的配套"},{"start":5022.472,"end":5037.358,"text":"那可以讓第三方支付剛剛的委員所提到這些難點的部分那其實在管理上面是有強化那也謝謝金管會來幫我們謝謝好我們還是要進一步的建立就是說嚴厲建立相關的平台"},{"start":5038.779,"end":5054.321,"text":"範售商家以及廣告人的這個責任規範要去做研議但是這個要非常的謹慎因為爹怕屎啦、飯怕杯啦就是說我們對於相關的這些平台、範售商家及廣告人這種責任的規範"},{"start":5055.502,"end":5072.65,"text":"必須要符合可以實施的這樣的一個基本的規範你太嚴格的話對於相關的這些的數位或是網路的這樣的一個生態我想部長也非常清楚這個是一個必須更謹慎的去來做研議跟處理"},{"start":5073.51,"end":5101.735,"text":"那我們也要建立金流異常的這種市井的機制這個部分來部長說明一下我們同意賬戶依照資本額或者是自行申報的使用金額來設置警戒線或者是出現大筆多筆但是大量超出警戒線的異常金流時或者是系統應該警示提醒第三方置物業者及相關管理人員注意異常的情況這個數位部有沒有具體的一個作為"},{"start":5102.835,"end":5117.324,"text":"報告委員 這個建議都很好我們已經做一件事情就是我的了解在我上任之前我們有補助向富邦銀行做鷹眼系統那就是在偵測這些所謂金牛的帳號的異常"},{"start":5118.405,"end":5140.231,"text":"那經過實施之後效果很好所以現在就是說也跟金管會討論就是說有些類似這樣的系統可以擴散到其他銀行希望從金流去阻擋這個異常的金流所以剛剛委員這邊的建議我們都會再加強跟深化去讓這樣的系統能夠廣佈在所有的金融單位"},{"start":5141.471,"end":5155.74,"text":"部長現在這種數位或是網路的詐欺啊他的新型態的這樣的一個發聲啊其實是屢見不鮮啊那這個部分我們看看這個美國商業"},{"start":5157.594,"end":5173.316,"text":"商業改進局他有示警就是說相關的新型態的電子郵件的詐騙以AI模擬上司或同事的語氣寄送偽造電子郵件或者是語音信息來指示匯款或是進行語音測錄"},{"start":5175.158,"end":5204.558,"text":"我們常常接到詐欺電話讓你講話他都不講話就是說他要測入你相關的這樣的一個語音的這樣的一個狀況或是智慧電視也可能遭到入侵藉由影音平台APP來竊取各自的問題這些新興科技的詐騙我們如何來強化國際的交流建立聯訪機制或是我們有進一步針對這些新興的這些網路的詐欺的方式"},{"start":5205.738,"end":5234.484,"text":"以及手法我們有沒有進行研究或初步的這樣的一個處理的規範來說明一下謝謝委員那個尤其最近在第一個我們當然跟國際的多合作啦我想國際這個合作一定要因為我們剛剛講說我們要跟國際交流這樣的情資各樣的技術那我們自己本身也有也是在發展一些AI技術比如說像DFAQ的偵測我們還有就是剛剛講的語音的這種假冒的偵測我們當然也希望自己本身有這樣能力能夠做一些判讀那給民眾使用"},{"start":5234.904,"end":5262.483,"text":"那更重要是現在就是說我們以後聽到電話或是看到語音因為有這種這樣的AI技術其實都不能夠輕易的相信那怎麼做呢就會有人建議比如說要通關密碼有些東西你要確認講話的真的是本人那這個可能也要跟民眾做這樣的教育就是基本上我想在這個這個時代的確我們對很多東西都要帶著一點懷疑那用各式各樣用技術方法用我們指揮的這個"},{"start":5263.623,"end":5263.924,"text":"議員．綜合報告業務概況．"},{"start":5286.986,"end":5297.134,"text":"必須針對相關的防詐不管是法令、政策以及具體的作為這才是主要的一個推動的目標以上一個提醒謝謝現在請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":5322.852,"end":5325.393,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們黃部長請黃部長部長早第一次見面好委員長"},{"start":5335.765,"end":5353.452,"text":"這個因為你在上任之前也看到不管是報章媒體的一個訪問也看到你一個初步的一個想法那我對你是有非常高的一個期待有很多在想法上面我也給你肯定第一個因為這個兩年前我一上台就講"},{"start":5355.394,"end":5368.63,"text":"這個數發部的時候就被唐部長指證他說我們叫數位部不叫數發部兩年之後謝謝你你上任之後其實我們比較在發展方面要特別講出來那我個人是真的認同"},{"start":5369.691,"end":5395.202,"text":"因為如果數位部長期發展把自己當作一個監管單位或說我自己如果說數位當然就是我們怎麼樣去管別人怎麼樣去管理怎麼樣去研究科技大概比較著重在這個方面那發展的話一個剛剛感覺是煞車啦我們真的是需要一個油門啦因為這個世界數位經濟發展得不得了我們如果每天只研究我們煞車要用哪一種煞車最準"},{"start":5395.962,"end":5419.956,"text":"那不是啊那誰帶頭衝啊其實我們當時覺得這個我們數發部是有這種概念那你們要再講一下你的想法對我剛講就是說其實未來的我們國家經濟的發展我們的目我們的機會在數位經濟啦那數位經濟所以我剛講說數位經濟在發展裡面其實有兩個一個當然就是我們要新力當然叫房幣那新力才是我們最重要的目標啦所以本"},{"start":5420.216,"end":5421.237,"text":"數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案"},{"start":5440.197,"end":5455.862,"text":"我們必須對目前看到的所謂的問題要做個處理一個當然是詐騙那另外一個就是治安的這會各自入侵攻擊還有各自竊取各自的問題要先處理那這個也是我在上任之後先要處理的問題"},{"start":5456.482,"end":5480.741,"text":"好 謝謝部長的一個簡要的一個說明那第一個我們看到不同嘛第二個不同的話我也覺得你這個符合我們很多可以講說國民朋友跟我們大部分委員的一個期待因為確實啊因為我們的訴發部是一個新的部會大家都希望他展現功能啦看到功能之後大家覺得你未來有什麼樣的一些不管是出國旅費佔的比重"},{"start":5481.241,"end":5503.41,"text":"那就比較大家不會這麼complain那事實上在第二年的時候我們發覺出國旅費的金額是蠻高的而且是可以講說舉國化然那我這邊來講我聽到你的說法但我是簡單來講就是不是那麼重要打詐優先希望把這經費移到最重要的一個部分比如說不出國你說希望能夠減掉20%"},{"start":5505.171,"end":5520.592,"text":"然後呢,之前跟唐副部長也交流很多次啦。他說堅持是眉毛事實上都有很必要的。那我看到你們一個想法不同啊。但是我是覺得我看到你的學經理我個人是非常佩服。台大畢業去美國"},{"start":5521.613,"end":5543.718,"text":"整個留學到博士然後在美國的一個企業包括 AT&T也擔任要職然後回台灣之後事實上有很長的一段時間在政府的不管是數位、科技、資安的這個領域所以我覺得產官學你都已經經歷過一遍了那我覺得科技人講的是第一個我們就科學很多東西都有數據化"},{"start":5544.938,"end":5571.184,"text":"我們要講的有拼有據這是我對你的期待所以你一上任就說要刪掉20%的出國預算一波打炸經費這是正確的嘛那我覺得你要刪掉哪20%的費用哪幾次的出國是你覺得因為我覺得你是科學人嘛我一上台看我不是擲筊就目前你覺得在今年的預算裡面有哪出國到日本出了哪幾次會議你覺得是不要的"},{"start":5571.764,"end":5571.864,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":5589.204,"end":5616.702,"text":"所以你現在也沒有辦法明確說你看到這麼多出國預算因為我講說就事論事嘛齁我們變成這個預算錢是一個問題每一個錢都注入到一次的出國旅遊那我們希望聽到的是未來啦好不好你回去研究一下啦總是有幾次它的重要性是A有些重要性是B有些重要性是C有些是兩年出國一次的這個不能希望聽到科學人的一個說法嘛再來這個刪除20%的預算基礎是什麼"},{"start":5620.745,"end":5627.27,"text":"他的基礎就是今年的出國旅費是多少錢?今年是4千就請那個市長再出網報告"},{"start":5628.982,"end":5652.052,"text":"謝謝委員可以時間補充說明那今年的預算本部加兩署是4400萬那明年的部分是3300萬那主要減少的部分是有些在國際上的合作那我們希望說對方如果可以到台灣來那我們就盡量邀請對方到台灣那這樣就可以減少我們一些費支出"},{"start":5654.653,"end":5665.982,"text":"民主網絡司司長司長3300萬先扣掉再補強一下到底哪些旅遊你目前明確了嗎明年度明年度的預算已經是3300萬我們部長上來沒幾天還是原來就變3300萬"},{"start":5678.411,"end":5706.332,"text":"你原來就編3300萬還是部長上去不是原本是編4400萬原本然後你把它撤回來重送嗎在送出去之前我們重新再檢討一次就是有些可以邀請什麼時候送出去的在上個禮拜上禮拜送出去好那你這個部分部長應該要知道我們檢調哪些啦怎麼樣比較清楚報告委員這個是我有這個請就我有仔細看過對就是有覺得可以刪了我們就刪這樣"},{"start":5707.153,"end":5716.117,"text":"好那我想希望部長也理解一下齁因為去年度我們在省今年度的預算其實總出國的經費不是4460萬是5109萬那經過了我們大家因為民間覺得說這樣不行嘛我們是刪掉了468萬才有4460萬啦所以當然你從4460萬往下減齁"},{"start":5729.123,"end":5744.971,"text":"對那我們覺得重點的精華的A級的會議我們去參加就好了嘛其他的部分總指部隊去回來再教我們啦所以我覺得你這個部分我是支持的那我想這次的解凍報告解凍報告那個有11項部長有看嗎"},{"start":5747.793,"end":5764.967,"text":"但是那個細節不是很清楚但是我看過對解凍的細節你看過吧那你一上任就大家對你期待很深啊我刪除20%的那個出國預算啊可是解凍報告裡面有兩條說我要拜託你們幫我解凍我出國預算啊那是幹嘛"},{"start":5765.97,"end":5790.755,"text":"不是啊 我們說真的你打仗要立即成效我真的支持你啊所以我今天沒有問我總要看一下你們的表現嘛不要一下就說你們不行可是你今天才講的這件事情對明年的我理解嘛可是你上任有沒有什麼事情可以現在做呢因為那你現在結論報告裡面有兩項其中第6點是你們速發布的速發布的其中1865萬的出國費用"},{"start":5793.616,"end":5819.739,"text":"其實只凍結十分之一啦只凍結186萬啦就在今天解凍啦你剛上任我也不想找麻煩啦我建議啊既然解凍出來你可能也沒有太了解裡面的實質內容因為有100多頁部長不一定有時間可以看可是你的政策下面在提這個的部分啦還把它寫得洋洋灑灑的我覺得不太妥當啦不太妥當我建議啊就算通過了這186萬你就不要用啦"},{"start":5820.499,"end":5832.668,"text":"另外我們那個資安署的929萬是整個木去凍結的就算你平均分配到你們那裡面929萬才4%啦你們在提這個報告的時候我最後講一句"},{"start":5839.246,"end":5859.626,"text":"部長的政策我也拜託這邊大部分公務人員我相信大家就是把國家的事情做好就好了可是部長的政策只是你們在治理行間很容易你知道嗎讓他覺得說啊變成因為這是部長簽名嘛部長拜託大家解凍了所以你要解凍的總共啊"},{"start":5860.967,"end":5884.472,"text":"總共才沒多少錢啊我是希望從今年就開始實現你的承諾這些才凍結差不多兩百萬的預算啊就算解凍給你啊你也暫時框起來不要用好不好跟我們說明一下的確那個因為我們今年跟國外在爭取之下已經有些部分國際的會議願意到台灣來辦了那所以相關的經費會減下來是減下來嗎好謝謝"},{"start":5888.052,"end":5907.023,"text":"好謝謝魯明哲委員發言完畢現在請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席有請黃部長"},{"start":5917.587,"end":5942.289,"text":"部長早首先我想部長有很豐富的一個學經歷的背景那現在也帶領我們數位部的新的團隊面臨我們現在的一個很大的一個新增的一個挑戰就是所謂的一個打砸自然跟數位產業的一個三個面向我想部長在專訪裡面也特別提到的"},{"start":5942.709,"end":5946.473,"text":"數位經濟的部分部長有提到我們要力拼數位經濟產值兩面破一兆的目標要成立所謂的AI生態園區那請教部長目前有屬意的地點嗎"},{"start":5964.77,"end":5964.79,"text":"韓國務卿"},{"start":5980.15,"end":6004.387,"text":"因為這個所謂園區應該講說整個台灣都是數位島就AI島所以這個園區應該是上中下游下游是擴散到可能包括台灣全部地區跟海外所以一定要從上游中游下游上游的人就是我們比較像這個新創或是研發團隊能夠很快的接觸到中游下游所以交通方面是一個要點那至於這個實際的地點還有就是說到底是幾個園區這個都還沒定"},{"start":6006.688,"end":6035.757,"text":"部長本期還是要提醒一下就是因為我們賴總統在這次競選的期間一直提到所謂一個南北區域均衡發展的一個理念那尤其我們現在整個南部地區也在一直所謂發展科技產業尤其是我們屏東我們有科技產業園區也有南科的屏東園區未來是不是有考慮能夠到屏東來設置一下我們的AI生態園區達到一個區域均衡發展的一個目標"},{"start":6036.657,"end":6062.114,"text":"我想這個一定會略無考慮那這個等到這個這個我們在我再跟那個劉主委討論之後我們會啟動一些這個工作去做一些做一些查詢這很重要尤其我們很多這個冰凍 他們有這樣相關的一個專長但是他們就是必須到中部北部去工作他們很想回到冰凍故鄉一定會略無考慮"},{"start":6065.049,"end":6091.454,"text":"那第二個就是在請教部長國安局日前表示我們境外的一個網路清騷的部分從今年初的選舉後每天100多萬次到目前提高到每天有250幾萬次尤其主要是針對我們的政府機構來清騷那也造成很大的危害甚至在媒體報導我們在評估友邦的一個機密文件的外洩最大的風險是在所謂的一個外管"},{"start":6092.535,"end":6112.951,"text":"針對這個部分我們說訴發部有沒有什麼樣的因應作為對就是我們現在就是我們治安這個畫面我們叫做治安署就是在治安法通過當然第一個就是目前來講治安署會做在我們的公部門做所謂的治安的集合跟治安的這個巡查跟治安的演練當然我們希望說不只以本身的治安要做好"},{"start":6113.371,"end":6124.979,"text":"那當然就是說將來我們還會在我們的所謂的關注關鍵基礎建設像是還有這個這些單位也會做同樣的工作至於基安的工作我是不是請那個資安署署長在座"},{"start":6128.237,"end":6151.422,"text":"報告委員我們會有分三大塊第一大塊是情資的交流只要任何地方有類似的攻擊我們就會立刻掌握因為我們有一些很多國家跟很多地方都有跟我們簽MOU所以立刻掌握之後我們就會主動防禦好這第一塊第二塊我們有應變處理所以我們的那個任何的事件我們會集合大家力量立刻做應變然後阻斷他的攻擊"},{"start":6152.222,"end":6175.014,"text":"第三塊我們會有後續的那個監控就是持續的監控萬一要是有任何異常的流量我們也會做那個主動的預警跟防禦那當然剛剛部長有講了除了這些之外我們還會平時就會做集合跟演練來讓大家的那個防禦的能量再提高對這個一定要強化的這個也是一個國安的一個危機"},{"start":6176.655,"end":6202.803,"text":"另外部長我想我還是要再提醒一下我們的資通安全管理法已經上路5年但是我們相對應我們的人力的部分的缺口一直沒有補齊你沒有人你要怎麼做這麼多的事這是一個很大的危機尤其目前我們看到的我們現在目前的編制的人力從中央政府到地方機關總共編制資訊的處理的一個仔細的部分只有編列3600多人遠遠"},{"start":6206.084,"end":6208.125,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6234.455,"end":6251.045,"text":"這部分是不是有調整的空間?要不然你們怎麼面對這個真財的一個困境?那個保護委員當然就是說這個我們一般但第一個人才我們會從內部很多實時訓練啦我記得有個目標希望兩年之內我們在內部能夠訓練一千個人為我們公部門所用"},{"start":6251.525,"end":6251.545,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":6267.039,"end":6287.039,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6287.84,"end":6302.719,"text":"這個還是要請部長我們要加油啦這個讓更多的人人才能那最後一個我想針對這個詐騙部分剛剛我們有聽到我們這個召委也有特別提醒部長部長這些新行樓新地購這有時候我們的發言甚至一些文書的資料"},{"start":6304.28,"end":6331.576,"text":"這個真的要特別要小心尤其這個我記得部長來拜訪的時候有特別提到針對這個網路平台業者的部分應該是蘿蔔跟棍子一定要啟發那針對這部分我想我們目前掌握到的資料從去年7月到今年5月我們通報的一個平台有移除11萬多但是還是層出不窮尤其這些名人詐騙的案子後續的部分有沒有什麼更積極的作為"},{"start":6333.378,"end":6347.679,"text":"對,剛剛就是,剛剛那個我也講過就是說,這個當然一個我們要讓這個一般民眾有這個市詐能力能夠提升啦,這個不要輕易相信網路平台業者的廣告。那當然跟網路平台業者我剛剛講過就是說,我們還希望能夠跟他們多溝通。"},{"start":6348.34,"end":6376.549,"text":"希望能夠多配合當然在打詐法通過專法通過之前用這種方式跟我們多交通然後當然剛剛講如果打詐查詢跟這個通報網也是用這樣的機制能夠很快速的通報這些業者能夠把一些這個所謂的不實廣告下架當然就是多管齊一下啦但是我剛剛就講說真的這個在我們這個通過之前我會盡量跟這些業者溝通啦就是希望他們能夠配合政府的政策"},{"start":6376.869,"end":6392.449,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6392.529,"end":6418.664,"text":"部長我想另外還有一個特別要請部長這邊注意的就是針對老人家這個詐騙案件因爲依據本市的瞭解齁,我們現在整個這個市段齁,氣用騙你齁,但是礙於面子,不敢講啦。齁,這辛苦一輩子打拼的這個錢齁,用騙得了你齁。我想我們現在比較大的困境在於說我們的一個資訊的一個傳播的速度有很明顯的城鄉差距。"},{"start":6419.224,"end":6445.556,"text":"我們整個地方的信息都不知道尤其老人家他在滑手機他並不曉得那麼掌握的那麼多的一個訊息那針對這部分我們數位部在各地都有一個數位的一個機位中心甚至我們每個鄉域現在都有所謂的關懷據點未來是不是有辦法針對這個老人家的一個詐騙的預防甚至彌平這個數位差距的這一環能夠來強化一個詐騙的一個作為跟宣達"},{"start":6447.457,"end":6463.446,"text":"有一個方式我要進行的就是我們會把一些詐騙的一些資訊拍成比如說短影音或拍成一些教材然後就可以經過這樣的一個社群平台去做播放讓老人可以看得到這些"},{"start":6463.826,"end":6463.966,"text":"現在請陳素悅委員發言"},{"start":6494.571,"end":6517.079,"text":"我們先做宣告等一下何清純委員跟蔡其昌委員發言完畢之後我們會休息那請各黨團助理告知接下來的委員蔡其昌委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘謝謝主席請主席邀請黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":6527.817,"end":6535.223,"text":"部長早我想就是今天針對這個數位發布的業務報告那我想大家還是很關心的這個就是"},{"start":6536.874,"end":6554.301,"text":"主帳的部分跟數位相關的部分我們看到相關的資料這個詐騙真的是層出不窮真的是充斥在人民的生活當中我們看到統計的數字從105年到112年有關詐欺發生的件數跟財損的統計可以說是逐年的增加"},{"start":6564.685,"end":6582.913,"text":"去年112年這個財損已經高達這個88億7895萬多那這樣子的一個創新高真的是在基層真的是民怨很高那本席先請教部長就您平常曾經接到這個詐騙的訊息嗎"},{"start":6585.588,"end":6610.645,"text":"算是長啦但是大概騙不了我因為你有辦法試詐所以對我完全沒有用因為我們在基層真的接觸到民眾的一個心聲就是真的這個詐騙的訊息非常的多那詐騙上當的案例在每個人可能周邊可能就有很多的親戚朋友都有這個受騙上當的這個"},{"start":6612.926,"end":6620.614,"text":"案發生,我們看到這詐騙的訊息的來源主要當然就是有簡訊還有包括這個信件信函電話電話包括就是室內電話行動電話都有還有就是這個網路網站的這個訊息所以這樣子的非常多的一個來源然後層出不窮真的對於"},{"start":6634.248,"end":6636.949,"text":"議員．綜藝新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6655.916,"end":6676.912,"text":"能夠讓這個主詐成果拼立竿見影那就是說就這個打詐通報查詢網目前我也不曉得說你們這個功能到底能夠到什麼樣的一個程度那未來就是說就您所說明的如果說針對這個可疑的簡訊網址就是可以透過通報查詢網來確認是否為詐騙訊息"},{"start":6680.234,"end":6706.296,"text":"那像目前就光是網路上臉書那每天我在看手機的時候幾乎就是有很多的這個詐騙的一個訊息我來看一下第一則就是像最常被冒用的就是我們的謝金河這個是我早上才看到的那之前真的很多很多不同的一個類型那他本人也曾經提出"},{"start":6707.194,"end":6730.352,"text":"也曾經就是去報案處理可是還是層出不窮然後第二個就是這個曹新成也是被冒用的這是在這個限動這個限動的這個部分就有可以看得到還有包括我們的這個經濟部長還沒有上任之前就被冒用了就用用他的名義來這個有這個臉書來"},{"start":6733.774,"end":6742.281,"text":"就是詐騙所以這樣子臉書的一個訊息真的是非常的多層出不窮那未來就這個部分你說像這個打詐通報查詢網的話就這個部分你會怎麼處理"},{"start":6748.288,"end":6764.318,"text":"就是像這種東西我們當然我們自己本身會用AI技術會去scan剛講就是剛講說比如說臉書我們希望很快就發現有這樣的這樣一個所謂的疑似假訊息那我們就會處理以後"},{"start":6764.898,"end":6784.706,"text":"當然就是說這是疑似還沒有人受騙就疑似然後就馬上處理就是我們就會連到比如說臉書跟臉書通知說你這個東西有問題當然我們會希望臉書能夠配合就是我們已經很快速的通知他他能夠馬上下架然後當然這個東西如果將來打詐裝法通過的時候他們必須配合不然我們就要滑拉錢"},{"start":6785.486,"end":6806.476,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6806.476,"end":6822.176,"text":"﹗"},{"start":6822.216,"end":6843.946,"text":"那謝謝委員那我們有說明的機會那部長就任之後呢大概也積極告訴我們說要做打爆打炸的通報查詢網所以像剛剛提到的郭部長的部分呢大概我們透過行政指導也跟臉書協作大概那兩個都拿下來那我們林次郎呢因為他it背景所以叫我們要這個現在已經在試行就名人的部分呢"},{"start":6844.286,"end":6859.554,"text":"那我們有一個專責的專案小組就是來那如果他自己來檢舉那我們次長都親自回信跟他說我們收到了那現在進度到哪邊那我們這個網查詢到第一個收件多久然後meta處理多久"},{"start":6860.154,"end":6860.174,"text":"謝謝,謝謝署長"},{"start":6886.218,"end":6909.274,"text":"我剛剛就是有聽到我們部長跟處長剛剛的回覆就是說如果說針對這樣子的一個網路的一個投資詐騙那剛剛部長說你們scan之後如果說是疑似這個詐騙的一個網頁那你們會通報LINE的話那就是由直接由你們訴發部去通報了不用再由透過警政署我們希望連線跟他們直接連就直接通報對"},{"start":6910.394,"end":6922.928,"text":"是確實可以做到這樣子嗎?我們會要求他們要接受我們的通報我們也是希望是可以這樣子另外就是說事實上在部長你提出的這個就是"},{"start":6923.653,"end":6928.475,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6948.802,"end":6962.768,"text":"會合作,而且我們有說這個查證是多方驗證,不是單一技術,所以我們也會利用這些民間的查詢一起交叉比對、認證我也是希望如此,因為我們也希望資源不要浪費"},{"start":6964.028,"end":6990.047,"text":"另外一個部分就是說我聽到我有看到部長接受訪問的時候你有提到說查詢網會根據內容進行分流健康醫療的方面的詐騙訊息給衛福部農業相關的給農業部去就是交給主管機關去判斷增尾可是我覺得說這樣子的一個流程好像就是會會去delay到這個訊息假訊息的一個處理的一個效率"},{"start":6990.427,"end":7012.859,"text":"包括委員因為這個有些專業不是我們能夠直接從文字上做判斷比如健康的消息到這個叫事證之下這個藥到底有效沒效這東西還是要回去那個相關部那就我所知我剛剛有提到這個事實查核中心他們好像就是直接可以去判別真偽然後給我們回覆就是說在這個效率上是非常的快又及時"},{"start":7013.679,"end":7033.627,"text":"對但是有關專業剛講像這個藥這個醫藥醫學上面東西我覺得還是要謹慎小心這樣所以我們還是會請部會處理盡速處理就是說其實他們也可以很快的處理但是處理結果會再跟我們講我們就會在網路上PO出來這樣但是我覺得專業還是回歸到專業的主管單位"},{"start":7034.207,"end":7035.168,"text":"謝謝陳書岳委員發言完畢現在請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":7065.802,"end":7069.334,"text":"好謝謝主席李坤哲召委我們請黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":7072.557,"end":7094.563,"text":"我另外一位次長不在黃部長好在我進入我的質詢之前我想再請教一件事因為今天有媒體報導這個我們台灣的低軌衛星的一個進度因為在唐鳳部長的時代在花蓮地震的時候我們首次在啟用了低軌衛星那我根據媒體的報導跟唐鳳部長之前跟我講的"},{"start":7096.723,"end":7099.786,"text":"不僅也是低軌衛星還有中低軌衛星並用用於花蓮的救災當時候的唐鳳部長說訊號優於預期所以我不知道你們預期中的是怎麼樣又是怎樣的判斷優於預期我們合作的是英國的OneWeb而不是馬斯克的星鏈當然這個有一些考量我知道"},{"start":7123.203,"end":7134.832,"text":"那尤其這個馬斯克的這個很多的事業重心是在中國那甚至可能因為他是比較親中的態度所以對我們來講是有一點疑慮所以我們沒有選擇星鏈而是one way那我就想請教黃部長那未來台灣在這個地軌衛星的這樣子的一個發展裡面部長你的態度如何?你的預期如何?"},{"start":7147.862,"end":7162.092,"text":"本來這個韌性就需要各式各樣的通信管道衛星是一個非常重要的管道那當然這個OneWeb是目前跟我們合作比較密切的當然是網軌當然我們還有中軌當然還有同步衛星我們都會一起用所以這會是一個整合那個細節是不是請牛司長細節是不是在書面報告給我好不好但是我只是想問部長一下當時的唐峰部長是說低軌衛星我們跟OneWeb合作"},{"start":7175.162,"end":7189.896,"text":"你剛剛說是多方的合作、多元的合作但是OneWeb現在起碼是我們選擇的重點合作的對象那唐峰部長說到今年下半年度這個OneWeb提供的服務應該到年底會有770個點那這個預期、這個進度如期如實嗎?"},{"start":7196.442,"end":7216.693,"text":"我目前所收到訊息並沒有說會有問題所以我們還是朝這個目標在努力就是朝這個目標在努力是不是我希望是書面報告給我因為這個關係到未來台灣不管是在戰略上或者是在一個廣泛的服務上甚至他在緊急救災的時候那這個衛星的一個"},{"start":7218.915,"end":7232.904,"text":"確保這個網路訊號能夠正常能夠讓我們所有的訊息都能夠接收得到這個很重要而且接收到的訊息要安全要正常而且要精準對不對然後訊號不能斷嘛"},{"start":7235.365,"end":7253.495,"text":"是不是所以我希望你給我一個詳細的書面報告好不好而且我希望的這個帝國衛星的一個one web的合作這個服務到年底的770個點不會跳票而且甚至要希望能夠增加這樣子才能夠廣泛而且全方位的一個服務那接著呢"},{"start":7254.696,"end":7274.613,"text":"部長來訪問外訪我的時候有在講到說現在從上到下從行政院到我們幾個都在講打詐那剛剛林俊憲委員有提到這一個我們現在詐騙案量是持續的增加投資詐騙又是增幅最大數字我就不要再講了但是我要講的問題是什麼來下一頁"},{"start":7277.355,"end":7294.69,"text":"我們只有阻絕社團的投資詐騙廣告真的只有通報下架還不夠因為刑事局公布了第一季的網路平台違法的投資廣告臉書拘手我們努力的去反映努力的去要求下架也達到3.2萬則"},{"start":7296.511,"end":7319.519,"text":"但是只有這樣子還不夠因為呢這樣子的投資詐騙廣告層出不窮剛剛陳書悅委員有提到嘛對不對那我就想我們去年3月6月30號通過了一個投顧法70之一條就是希望能夠採實名制的一個這個投資理財廣告採實名制但是光是這一個投顧法修法之後到現在"},{"start":7320.799,"end":7346.277,"text":"那就沒啥有好啦因為啥呢這個投顧法的第71條的實名制只是要加強投放方的自我資訊的揭露而已啊並沒有強制性的要求平台一定要怎樣怎樣怎樣啦所以部長你剛剛好像也回其他委員說你要邀請這些平台業者來喝咖啡啦或者是邀請他們來商量啊因為呢還無法可管的情況之下但是"},{"start":7346.997,"end":7363.726,"text":"部長只有喝咖啡夠嗎?你剛剛講威脅兩個字我是覺得用字不太妥但是呢嚴格的督促甚至用其他的一個政策工具是不是可以來拜託是不是可以來督促我們平台業者可以來"},{"start":7364.506,"end":7391.045,"text":"更進一步的在源頭管理開始來採更積極的落實實名制。部長你覺得咧?那個沒有錯我剛剛講說一個是要用法去管那法沒有通過以前就是用各式各樣管道跟他們溝通那剛剛有講就是說我們第一個就是還是希望說有這個打造通報這個查詢網能夠把這個通報時間縮短讓下架時間快一點"},{"start":7392.166,"end":7416.073,"text":"但是我還是很強調一點就是說其實詐騙的方法管道太多所以試詐能力的提升是很重要那我也特別講就是說為什麼要有這樣的一個服務的這樣一個就是說讓民眾看到這樣的訊息比如說將來看到臉書上看到某些名人廣告那就可以馬上到這個查詢網來看這個是不是真的在決定你這個查詢的這個平台要建立要多久"},{"start":7417.534,"end":7432.391,"text":"三個月之內會上架三個月之內可以更快一點好嗎可以更快一點好嗎因為你們的專業技術還要到三個月以後那至於說那個那我就跟你講還有其他的政策工具還有其他我們已經立法的一個工具啊修法的工具啊"},{"start":7433.855,"end":7449.932,"text":"在唐豐部長時代我們修的這個電子簽章法嘛因為你們一直在講說我們要推平台上架的投資廣告要驗證驗什麼驗數位簽章嘛對不對那現在我們社群平台如何驗證現在你們驗證我的意思是說電子簽章法三讀通過到現在你們的驗證第一個"},{"start":7456.58,"end":7478.453,"text":"對所以是要強迫業者對強迫業者要能夠你們強迫業者但是你們用什麼工具去強迫業者啊對那個打詐法打詐法的第3、4條有這樣的一個但他專法3、4條有這樣的一個要求所以專法還沒通過之前你們也沒有辦法強制業者啊就是說現在投資廣告詐騙正在進行是但是你們還是沒有辦法"},{"start":7479.99,"end":7489.219,"text":"第二個第二個我們現在這些平台業者協調嫁接的進度如何嫁接我們電子簽章法的這個所謂的驗證數位驗證"},{"start":7492.526,"end":7512.67,"text":"平台接受嗎?技術面跟委員報告就是說其實我們部長對這個非常重視因為他列為我們第一個要務那上個禮拜五我們林正路次長已經找了Google Meta9來開會電子簽章法因為他本來就是做數位簽章或電子簽章這樣的做法"},{"start":7513.01,"end":7517.251,"text":"那我們在打詐專法的第30條目前行政院送到立法院的版本裡頭就是要用數位簽章或是所謂快速身份識別機制或是就叫FIDO那因為業者上禮拜五來說這兩個他有時候要改系統要到母公司去所以其實我們打詐專法裡頭有或其他安全性相當的技術或方式來驗證來跟你們開會的這個業者說如果要改系統要回到母公司這有時間"},{"start":7543.416,"end":7544.697,"text":"行政指導的你們所謂的其他方法是什麼"},{"start":7576.296,"end":7594.06,"text":"委員你好。的確上個禮拜我們在跟那個Google、Line還有Facebook他們在談論這件事情的時候他們就一直跟我們講說因為他們是國外的公司所以他們都要依照他們母國的法律然後另外他們改系統有的說要18個月有的說多久"},{"start":7594.44,"end":7618.974,"text":"那我就跟他們講說第一個你在雖然是你母國可能是美國可能是日本但是你到台灣來你就得遵守台灣法律就像我們台灣的各種網路公司到國外去進行營業的時候我們到美國到日本也必須遵守當地的法律那另外一件事情是像是Facebook他們雖然說他們改系統要18個月但是我也提醒他們說他們之前就是在"},{"start":7619.514,"end":7619.734,"text":"他有答應嗎?"},{"start":7639.803,"end":7658.678,"text":"他們說他們會盡量配合那我們會持續的跟他溝通除了法律面以外我們也希望就是說利用因為台灣現在民意對於這個詐騙尤其這幾個廣告平台上面的詐騙已經非常非常不滿了那我們希望也利用輿論的壓力給他們更大的就是在商業上給他們更大的壓力"},{"start":7659.72,"end":7662.602,"text":"何欣淳委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":7690.813,"end":7711.622,"text":"謝謝主席請黃部長請黃部長蔡委員好部長早部長我想齁這個你剛到立法院分析對數法部只有一個重中之重"},{"start":7713.001,"end":7735.894,"text":"台灣民眾認為台灣的新三害就是詐騙、認知作戰跟網路犯罪。部長你有沒有被網路詐騙或者是被簡訊詐騙過?收過很多但是沒有被騙過。所以你蠻聰明的,從來沒有上當過。沒有。好。部長那你有沒有被網路犯罪"},{"start":7738.522,"end":7740.685,"text":"蘇發部長這個位置很難坐得住部長你有沒有這樣的認知?"},{"start":7759.343,"end":7761.965,"text":"上一個部長叫唐鳳唐鳳我想他也是科技界的奇才但是呢"},{"start":7785.4,"end":7814.238,"text":"臺灣部長他做了一些事情但不管怎麼樣民眾是不滿意的所以今天你來當這個訴發部的部長我第一個必須要先提醒你這個是一個善意的提醒如果這個部長沒有辦法把這三件事情做好當然這個特別是詐騙跟網路犯罪認知作戰因為涉及到整個國家整體的體系但至少在詐騙上面那個是所有的臺灣人民每一天必須要遭受的侵犯"},{"start":7815.27,"end":7836.235,"text":"每一天啊你打開你說到今天剛剛我聽上一個委員在問你啊何委員在問你的時候特別去提到這個這個所謂平台業者這個到今天啊那名人那個詐騙啊我我我隨便打開手機我都可以部長我都可以還都可以看得到啊煩不勝煩啊防不勝煩而且煩不勝煩部長"},{"start":7839.443,"end":7867.698,"text":"除了道德勸說就是說電子簽章法過了現在行政院打詐的專法也送到立法院來了但是啊到通過三讀開始落實實施相關的規定辦法都出來時間我不知道要多久但是至少人民每天的生活他都要繼續那在這段期間除了剛剛你所回答的道德勸說之外還有沒有其他的可能"},{"start":7868.632,"end":7883.633,"text":"那個報告委員就是我剛剛講就是說我們希望加速發現剛剛講這些假廣告或假訊息能夠要求就是這些平台商快速因為以前通報他們跟"},{"start":7884.494,"end":7884.954,"text":"這是三個月後的事"},{"start":7902.599,"end":7922.685,"text":"對三個優勢但是就是說這個是可以幫助那在這個之前我跟委員講就是說我現在還是一樣就是說當然就是我們會定期跟這些平台商再繼續溝通我知道你要溝通也喝咖啡啦除了說咖啡之外除了送上咖啡可不可以送上毒藥"},{"start":7928.166,"end":7943.071,"text":"民眾很受不了。作為民意代表,我必須要把民眾的憤怒真的轉達給部長知道。所以這部份的工作我們請次長﹖來次長有沒有什麼更厲害的方法?"},{"start":7943.951,"end":7966.369,"text":"老師送上好喝的咖啡業者也是喝一喝就走了嘛可不可以送上一點難喝的或者甚至有毒的是委員說的沒錯那我們現在的策略一方面就是說我們是多管齊下一方面我們是很期待打造專法的通過然後以後這種投資廣告都有實名制但是那個時間實在太久了所以我們希望在"},{"start":7967.329,"end":7989.424,"text":"設法努力要看能不能在三個月之內有這個打架查詢通報網看能不能讓他上線那這個的目的就是說當有人通報的時候其他的民眾我覺得網路上現在民眾都生活在網路上嘛他就很簡單的去到把一個可疑的網址貼上去然後看說是不是已經有人通報了然後我們政府是不是已經有在處理了"},{"start":7990.024,"end":8004.76,"text":"處理的狀況我們給大家知道這是第二第二件事情那剛剛委員有提到事實上三個月還是對民眾來感覺來講好像還太長了所以我們現在其實已經啟動另外一個更短期的那個機制就是建立一個那個"},{"start":8005.501,"end":8025.278,"text":"公眾人物的當他的身份被仿冒的時候他有一個通報的管道那我們現在已經陸續在跟這些名人的就是有一些通報的管道那也希望事實上各位委員如果有這方面的困擾的話我們也很希望把這個服務提供給您那以後您如果說發現您的"},{"start":8026.459,"end":8027.38,"text":"我建議你們好好花一點時間去研究政府"},{"start":8054.888,"end":8077.106,"text":"民不與官鬥啦為什麼因為官有很多種方法官有很多的手段我不相信速發部只有好喝的咖啡啦所以我還是堅信你們還是可以再找出方法我不相信這些平台業者一而再再而三的放縱讓這些詐騙不斷的層出不窮在他的平台上面"},{"start":8078.609,"end":8078.709,"text":"第二個齁第二個"},{"start":8089.687,"end":8112.917,"text":"這個資安我看現在把那個經濟部把這個所謂的資安院把這個對資安院移到速發部然後我們今年我看你們的這個新聞稿上面去提到說我們這個資安院承接臺灣電腦網路危機處理暨協調中心我看到了這個新聞可是我對一個數字我覺得很疑惑這個數字就是說"},{"start":8115.334,"end":8131.665,"text":"這個成立這個平台很重要的是要這個民間跟政府啊所謂的這個一起協力嘛對不對那這個參加廠商企業的人數只有1500人這是這個是怎麼一回事台灣有百萬中小企業"},{"start":8135.39,"end":8159.228,"text":"委員好,跟委員報告一下因為目前對民間的企業的通報沒有法律的強制的要求所以這邊是自願性的然後自願性接手以後我們就開始怎麼樣提供各種誘因他願意來通報比如講說你參加我們的會議以後我們的情誌可以分享那發生資安事件以後"},{"start":8160.049,"end":8188.829,"text":"我們可以來協助所以透過各種管道來增加民眾的企業來賓來成為會員那第二我們現在開始跟很多民間的企業的供應鏈包括像我們的高科技的產業包括像我們無電面工會我們跟他來做聯防那希望透過這樣的管道把會員數目增加讓我們的資安的情報能夠在第一時間往企業來處理第三個我們要協助中小企業中小企業是很大的一個挑戰也希望中小企業會變成"},{"start":8190.33,"end":8213.558,"text":"將來資安院可以服務的地方以上補充謝謝好部長這個時間的有限這個下一次我會再好好討論那我先提醒你一個資安院接接了一個中心這個中心接到今年的三個月只收到20到30幾件通報會員數只有1500多個這種單位只有兩種狀況一個就是"},{"start":8220.08,"end":8248.316,"text":"好好管理讓這個數字快速明顯的增加第二個就把它廢掉就浪費人民的公帑嘛成立這個成立一個協調中心通報二三十件三個月駭客都活不下去了啦一個駭客隨便一駭二二三十家通報二三十家這兩這這個當駭客齁這個產業當駭客這個產業如果只有二三十家這駭客活不會下去啦"},{"start":8249.056,"end":8270.686,"text":"你現在懂我的意思嗎?所以這個表示成效真的要檢討台灣中小企業有數百件資安的問題對他們來講很困擾啊大部分資料一被駭客駭了之後只好乖乖的看要買以太幣還是買買買其他的這個數位貨幣就直接就快點資料拿回來快點啦"},{"start":8271.633,"end":8299.23,"text":"那為什麼法令不會強制嘛?為什麼?這是因為你要設計誘因嘛各位試想這麼多無助的中小企業他們不會有資安部門啦今天說40個人、40個人、40個人他要怎麼有資安部門所以他對資安到底要怎麼面對他其實就是現在就是看運氣嘛希望駭客不要找上他或者他沒有價值讓駭客來駭他"},{"start":8300.99,"end":8328.72,"text":"所以呢重點在於說我們一定有誘因讓這些無助的中小企業他覺得我來參加這個很好建戶可以幫我協助什麼我來參加這個我可以怎麼樣我通報之後可以怎麼得到什麼對待這個才是今天成立這個協調中心重要的目的因為有台灣的型態大企業他不需要你他認為他比你書發部還厲害對不對他認為他們自己就可以解決"},{"start":8329.96,"end":8340.795,"text":"那透過工協會我們有太多的中小企業的工協會工協會隨便一個工協會只要參加一半的會員你早就幾十萬了不會是1500個會員"},{"start":8344.02,"end":8370.272,"text":"所以本席提這個主要是告訴你說這個是替中小企業出出聲音我們要用用腦筋想想看什麼樣的方式可以讓中小企業覺得參加這個聯訪是對他們是有用的參加這個聯訪對他們的保護是有幫助的參加這個聯訪他們可以在這個無助的汪洋當中網路犯罪的汪洋當中找到一根伏木"},{"start":8371.189,"end":8371.429,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":8396.671,"end":8397.412,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8450.179,"end":8450.94,"text":"議員委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8471.049,"end":8477.771,"text":"議員：一、邀請數位發展部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。"},{"start":8496.136,"end":8504.041,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。"},{"start":9233.22,"end":9255.438,"text":"好,現在繼續開會請許智傑委員發言我還是善意的提醒部長不要再有威脅或者是難喝的咖啡這樣的字眼好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長"},{"start":9274.607,"end":9287.186,"text":"那一天部長到我辦公室事實上我一直在想這個詐騙集團要怎麼樣去防堵那當然詐騙集團本來不見得是蘇衛部的工作"},{"start":9288.248,"end":9316.935,"text":"但是呢用很多新的科技可能就是數位部可能這部分會比其他單位都還要強一點所以是不是數位部可以用你的專業然後來幫助可能警政署或者是電信公司或者是NCC做一個平行的溝通那怎麼樣去創造一個防止詐騙集團可以讓數位部有所發揮的空間"},{"start":9317.955,"end":9344.371,"text":"好那這個部分不知道部長有想到方法了沒有對這個跟委員報告我只有提過就是我們有個打詐通報查詢網就在最源頭就讓民眾或是我們自己去網路去scan去掃描發現可疑的那個訊息我們就會很快速的跟其他部會做溝通會把訊息pass給他們做即時的處理所以就是說你要怎麼去發現這個可能是詐騙的電話或者是可能是詐騙的網路"},{"start":9345.111,"end":9367.257,"text":"民眾當然是民眾主動把他看到的東西PO在我們的那個查詢網號我們會去查這個包括電話的來源網址或是銀行的帳號等等等等還有訊息的內容另外一個當然就是我們也會去網路上去爬可能看到的一些尤其像比如說剛剛講臉書這種就是平常看到很多的詐騙的訊息的地方這樣這個針對民眾"},{"start":9370.816,"end":9386.103,"text":"檢舉或者是去爬臉書這個當然都是很重要的工作不過這個其實有一點是事備公辦所以我上一次有跟部長提到就是說其實你去看一般的商業模式"},{"start":9387.003,"end":9408.456,"text":"比如說他B2B、B2C、C2B、C2C等等的這些商業模式現在詐騙集團要去詐騙也有他詐騙集團的商業模式所以其實我跟部長提過的就是說這個部分比如說現在中華電信跟三大電信我們來看那個防詐的那個"},{"start":9409.777,"end":9426.212,"text":"我記得那個數位部好像有提到說你們自己也會發展一個防炸的APP這個部長當時還沒到不知道裡面有沒有人了解說數位部是不是有在規劃這一個部分防炸電話的APP"},{"start":9428.01,"end":9452.845,"text":"電話是主要還是在那個電信公司嗎?那我們知道就像比如說中華電信他也有一個防詐的一個服務他已經擋掉百分之九十幾現在那個Who's Call啦對 Who's Call也是那個是民間公司嘛事實上他是免費的嘛Who's Call有跟我們談過好幾次然後那個台灣大哥帶有一個反詐戰警對他也是免費的嘛對"},{"start":9454.059,"end":9475.749,"text":"那其他的中華電信跟遠傳的好像是都要收費中華電信要收費應該然後我們自己的我記得當時數位部有跟我提過說你們自己也想要努力就類似一個這樣子一個防詐的戰警就是去攔截因為現在就是說"},{"start":9477.045,"end":9505.903,"text":"被電話詐騙的大部分都是比較老人還是比較弱勢啦那當然其實很多人真的是都受過詐騙的電話我覺得你如果先把網路的其實無遠弗屆而且網路廣告有時候你沒有100%你靠去爬書的也不容易通通讓你發現啦但是我覺得這個電話如果防詐電話可以處理的話從源頭來管理不要只是末端的管理也許這是一個好的方向"},{"start":9506.954,"end":9527.484,"text":"對,同意不施請那個呂署長在這方面再做補充謝謝委員讓我們有補充說明的機會那委員剛剛提到之前大概就有這樣的討論不過因為像富士康他就自己不太好嘛所以我們就跟他協作這種有這個需求就請富士康再把它多強化他的模組另外剛剛委員提到台灣"},{"start":9528.584,"end":9536.87,"text":"台灣有一個防炸戰警他有來簽我們的AI領航計劃這就是研發的部分透過數據的分析把AI你現在卡進來有時候那個量突然增多他怎麼做我們沒關係我們現在說我們數位部有發生要做"},{"start":9547.618,"end":9571.522,"text":"現在因為這種民間的創意比我們多所以我們是用協作的方式我們現在是用打造查詢網這個我們就自己做那時候大概有這樣的討論大概回到民間的創意然後去做研發補助這樣沒關係啦我的意思就是說你要去想前端跟後端嘛那你後端就是說像APP這些都是我"},{"start":9573.049,"end":9600.383,"text":"我要自己那個download下來自己安裝上去我才會有這個功能嘛那這個功能當然就是說不同的電信公司或者是民間公司他們都會去規劃設計嘛那我們處理末端的這個部分就是說我們也希望說數位部可以幫忙啦這不是你的工作啦但是數位部為什麼人家一直去質疑說數位部的工作成效不髒"},{"start":9601.741,"end":9631.03,"text":"就是因為你做的事情沒有去凸顯出來嘛那你今天如果是因為你的數位專業可以去幫忙的話也許你幫了以後人家會發現數位部真的做這事情真的大家惹怒了所以這個才能夠凸顯就是說現在詐騙電話這麼多啦我們現在就是說我們先把詐騙電話先堵掉至少堵掉大部分啦你沒有辦法100%至少堵掉大部分所以就是就這個防詐的APP是不是數位部可以做一個統整"},{"start":9632.447,"end":9633.347,"text":"數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告"},{"start":9651.833,"end":9671.013,"text":"所以可以數位部可以去統整整合做出一個這樣子一個末端的系統的防堵的系統就對了好不好系統可以交互交叉比對就是在末端這邊數位部努力一下啦就了解各個不同的單位嘛能夠做一個末端的防堵防炸的工作好"},{"start":9671.613,"end":9691.978,"text":"那這個部分OK要做前段的也要做前段的就是說其實我一直去研究就是商業模式跟詐騙模式其實他可能就是如果是都是B2C的話事實上現在的電話電信公司都是B2C嘛我們把電信公司當作一個單位嘛"},{"start":9692.498,"end":9719.566,"text":"那詐騙集團他也是一個企業單位嘛他這個企業單位去針對每一個個人他就是這樣一直打嘛那如果你如果可以在電信公司或者是我們整體設一個Hub那這個Hub就是說你今天是B2B在吐息嘛那你這個B呢就可以說所有的電話來比如說我從海外電話一天打台灣10通以上的這個海外電話可能就有問題"},{"start":9720.848,"end":9732.678,"text":"那我如果用室內電話一天打超過30通比如說民意代表服務處啦或者是企業單位他們業務單位這個就很正常那這個會登錄說這是正常的電話號碼嘛"},{"start":9734.332,"end":9755.62,"text":"如果你如果一般的沒有登錄過的電話號碼除了有這樣子一個現象發生可能就有可能是詐騙電話嘛那你們如果說有一個程式你們來協助然後協助這三大電信公司跟NCC來處理這樣子一個program那有可能你就可以在"},{"start":9756.656,"end":9756.676,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":9773.114,"end":9773.234,"text":"數位部部長"},{"start":9788.837,"end":9806.507,"text":"可以去幫忙做這個部分的整合用你們的專業看怎麼樣去處理因為這個電信公司他要主動想到可能也他也沒想到啦NCC我們剛剛要求的現在是末端前端NCC可能也不見得有這個能力啦那前端這個部分是不是數位部正好是你們的專業"},{"start":9807.607,"end":9827.344,"text":"我們可以跟他講就是整合我們現在在進行這些打爆通訊網去整合這樣的一個能力能夠把它那個我以後會再問啦希望說這個部分我都能夠看到數位部有進度那真的是把我們電話詐騙如果能減少到90%以上95%以上這真的是功德無量"},{"start":9828.024,"end":9829.245,"text":"許委員發言完畢,現在請邱若驊委員發言黃部長"},{"start":9855.874,"end":9879.637,"text":"委員好部長好首先先恭喜黃部長上任期待部長可以重建數發部成立的價值因為數發部成立不到成立還不到兩年但已經讓很多國人從期待變到失望從過去的期望演變成失望那前面很多委員都提到詐騙已經是高民怨了那部長的報告中也提到了"},{"start":9880.037,"end":9905.517,"text":"要打詐先從打詐給民眾一個安心無論是行政院還是黃部長都有推新的措施都是希望可以改善過去的打詐成果那第一支箭推動打詐工作將設置打詐通報查詢網請問部長何時可以檢視這個成效現在預定是三個月三個月是建制那我想請問就是成效對這個次長是不是可以回來未計成效我們這個"},{"start":9909.708,"end":9933.288,"text":"報告委員我們這個要成立這個打詐通報查詢網那個因為這個的目標算是蠻大的我們會分階段實行那我們剛開始我們會集中在幾個部分第一個部分就是一些公眾人物他的身份被假冒然後有一些詐騙的廣告這是第一部分那第二個部分呢是很多那種假冒政府單位的訊息"},{"start":9933.888,"end":9959.186,"text":"公眾人物的假冒是指廣告嗎?商業廣告?對,就是那個投資詐騙廣告就像那個謝金河先生他常常就是就是短期那中期跟長期的計畫呢?我們剛開始短期的話我們先會用人工來處理等我們熟悉這個處理的流程之後呢那我們就會漸漸轉為用科技的手段用科技來對付科技詐騙"},{"start":9960.026,"end":9969.769,"text":"用AI來對付AI的那個詐騙這是我們中長期的計畫那我剛才有聽到部長有說跟Who's Call也有做過去也有做"},{"start":9971.13,"end":9993.657,"text":"對那個報告委員對我們跟因為這個現在民間技術也蠻多也蠻進步的所以我們也將來我是希望這是一個整合啦就是說我們會剛剛講電信公司有些有些這個這個防詐和堵詐的方法然後還有一些金融單位也有一些方法我們都會試著把它整合進來這樣"},{"start":9994.437,"end":10023.721,"text":"我相信很多民眾都有下載包括我在內海小路包括在座的很多就是在座各位都也有下載Who's Call嗎那為什麼民間可以做到我們政府還有速發部做不到呢因為這個速發部的感覺起來像是被動式的Who's Call是主動只要我們接到電話就可以看到是誰來電那為什麼我們不能報告委員Who's Call主要是電話但是我們現在很多詐騙的訊息來自比如說Line或是來自Facebook那沒有跨部會的合作嗎"},{"start":10027.082,"end":10039.547,"text":"我們希望有個東西就是不管你是哪個管道進來訊息能夠把它PO在我們這樣一個服務網然後就可以協助來判斷這樣訊息是不是可能詐騙這樣所以會大於只是電話的偵測"},{"start":10042.295,"end":10045.076,"text":"那剛才提到的強化模組是什麼意思?強化模組跟委員報告齁就是因為詐騙這個有不同的樣態嘛按夫斯科因為過去我們在這樣的業務討論上面他也會持續去做研發所以呢诶詐騙有時候新的模態譬如說剛剛前面幾位委員有一位舉的就是這個謝金河先生嘛他以前都是名子"},{"start":10070.524,"end":10093.22,"text":"那他就會轉成說就不是名詞了可能是謝社長但是他的圖像那這個都是要透過科技的方式讓這個我們在後台處理的時候抓得到說這個其實也是假冒因為一般人因為這是名人嘛看起來就知道這個是就自己會映射成一些就知道是謝社長的人"},{"start":10094.801,"end":10112.478,"text":"那這些都是模組上他在AI訓練model的時候都會用到那我們其實跟剛剛講跟FoodCore他就持續去做研發那另外呢像幾個電信業者因為他們也會做這樣的研發然後大家這種都是有點像機會酒料法大家都盡他的能力提倡謝謝"},{"start":10117.722,"end":10138.067,"text":"謝謝委員我們會努力因為過去一直大家都說都會在想為什麼不能從源頭落實啊很多民眾都不解那包括我們委員在內那在我們桃園我們市長張先生市長成立打造桃園對那儘管再怎麼努力啊成功的攔截很多重大照片案但是風氣還是沒有辦法克制就不知道有什麼資本的政策"},{"start":10139.267,"end":10139.468,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":10158.979,"end":10178.889,"text":"但是呢我覺得最後結果還是希望我們提升民眾視詐的能力就是說能夠能夠看了以後能夠知道說這是一個詐騙那這個方法可以從剛講這個達照通報查詢網去問以外另外就是說我們會推動像短短馬沒關係部長還是請署發部從源頭的這方面對對源頭我知道就源頭就是說源頭的資訊"},{"start":10179.969,"end":10180.089,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10200.777,"end":10224.87,"text":"部長與國發為合作設置AI生態園區要扶植AI新創還有投資還有吸引投資要打造我們台版的AI矽谷那希望也是在同樣3個月內提出計劃那我們桃園市政府也有正在爭取推動AI的應用還有引導新創產業的進駐那我們地方資源有限必須要中央的協助相信部長清楚桃園有很多重點的科技產業那部長這方面可以提供"},{"start":10225.47,"end":10246.773,"text":"協助我想我們可以跟桃園的有些密切合作沒問題就是說希望可以把桃園納入計劃的重點區那這個要可以再提供我們再再來我們會去再去可能去拜訪桃園市的一些關於這個計劃的細節看怎麼跟中央配合或中央怎麼協助來讓桃園將能夠發展能夠"},{"start":10247.814,"end":10248.655,"text":"議員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":10278.103,"end":10281.091,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們請速發部黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":10290.002,"end":10317.812,"text":"部長好部長首先還是要肯定部長在上任之初提出的政策三支箭第一個就是打詐那當然它包含發展數位經濟產業跟數位韌性那我想這個發展數位經濟產業跟數位韌性這當然是這部裡面的一個主要業務但是我想民眾包含說民意代表這邊大家最關心的還是這個打詐的問題因為這個打詐問題其實真的非常嚴重光是這個地方的警察局地方派出所"},{"start":10318.832,"end":10330.141,"text":"在我選區裡面派出所剛好這兩天要來質詢我了解一下實務狀況派出所大概每天每天喔每個派出所大概可以收到5到6件詐騙的這個的這個通報或者報案"},{"start":10334.022,"end":10354.363,"text":"這是有案的有的可能被騙來不知道沒有來報案的光是每天就有5到6案這個這個這個這個案子所以去詐騙自己對台灣的這個民生經濟影響非常非常重大好那我想部長你剛上任啊也不能太太苛求但是我想剛你知道個數字有一個媒體可能晚一點會做出會公告有個民調講說"},{"start":10356.185,"end":10377.109,"text":"對於這個新政府會激起打擊詐騙請問您對政府打擊詐騙有沒有信心不太有信心跟很沒有信心的比例不太有信心的17%很沒有信心的31%所以沒有信心的部分合計起來大概48%我想問一下部長你對於這樣的數字有什麼樣的感想或對未來的施政有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":10378.156,"end":10391.934,"text":"打詐是我們新政府的一個很重要的一個政策那已經這個新政府已經啟動這樣一個所謂打詐的這樣推動的一個辦公室的一個做法那我們定期都有在跟各部會因為這次打詐是跨部會的一個合作"},{"start":10392.435,"end":10413.073,"text":"那我個人就覺得我個人是蠻有信心因為我們現在的確在很多作為上包括各個單位各個部位都有提出新的做法然後從資訊流、人流跟金流一起合作、下手然後阻斷這個詐騙的一個管道希望台灣能夠是一個安全的地方而減少詐騙部長謝謝你提到一個關鍵字,阻斷"},{"start":10416.056,"end":10431.595,"text":"這是最重要的其實我們提的很多修法都只能後續的懲處但是我們的確希望數法部還有NCC在內大家能夠從源頭來把這個東西阻斷所以回到這個政策本身部長提到的打詐部分三個月內要推出所謂的打詐通報查詢網"},{"start":10432.836,"end":10460.176,"text":"我也是肯定這樣的做法但是我要問部長一件事情現在就已經有內政部警政署的165全民防騙網的這個這樣的功能那這個165全民防騙網跟你即將推出的打詐通報查詢網這之間有什麼關聯性或者是這兩個東西會不會又跌床架屋因為你要推出一個新的打詐通報查詢網你還要再過三個月那我們現在就有165全民防騙網當然是不同的部門但對民眾來講"},{"start":10461.417,"end":10484.896,"text":"我只要有詐騙相關的訊息我希望有一個單一的管道不管是查詢也好通報也好或是我去各種新的詐騙資訊也好民眾的出發的觀點希望說我就一個網站或是一個窗口了解就好我不需要有這麼多網站所以我想問一下部長到底這個打詐通報查詢網跟這165全民方便網未來是要整合呢還是會有兩個網站的存在"},{"start":10486.077,"end":10511.715,"text":"報告委員那個你看這個就講很清楚是我已經覺得這個訊息是詐騙或是我已經被騙了我在這邊報案那跟我們這邊是說你收到的訊息你不確定的時候你可以先到我們這個網站來查這個是不是可能的詐騙而不是說我已經知道他是詐騙我要來檢舉我想這有個差異那也就是讓民眾收到訊息的時候他有個方式先來瞭解我現在收到訊息到底可不可以信"},{"start":10512.415,"end":10532.96,"text":"那這個是這個是我們這個這個而且我們這個查詢網會連結各個部位當然我們也會連結警政署的這個單位就是說我們已經看到這個訊息經過AI的偵測確定可能是一個詐騙訊息不需要民眾自動報案我們這邊就把我們看到的訊息通報你意思是說你們推動的打大通報查詢網是屬於進行中的狀態"},{"start":10534.3,"end":10548.97,"text":"165全民防騙網查到訊息以確定狀態是這意思嗎?就是說民眾已經決定已經知道民眾已經判斷知道是詐騙或者是他已經被騙他來這邊做我不能說你沒做事但是我還是要拜託一下其實對民眾對我來講對本席來說這個詐騙問題如果你能夠整合我覺得是對民眾來講這個是比較方便你不要說"},{"start":10557.576,"end":10582.385,"text":"講真的因為現在165全民防騙網已經推一段時間了大家有些想法跟資訊他一定是先上165去查詢不會去上打造通報查詢網來查詢現階段是這樣子當然我們希望一個網站裡面就能夠我們是一個入口啦portal啦會連接到各個單位的我當然希望你要做到是說不要有這麼多的版本就是就像部長剛剛提到的這個打造通報查詢網是進行中可能潛在的狀況"},{"start":10583.906,"end":10610.492,"text":"一六五是已經確定了但對我來講或對民眾或對任何一個資訊有落差的人來講他要相信政府他上網查他就是要得到一個可能存在答案嘛你不要說還分兩個我這個上一六五查不到我再上打造通報找找查查看我希望這個事情是能夠結合在一起的我們會整合部長可以嗎可以我們會整合好你們會跟內政部主管整合吧對會好那再來剛剛提到這個這個前面也有很多委員提到包含說名人詐騙的問題"},{"start":10612.012,"end":10628.084,"text":"這件事情就這樣當初在推所謂的電子簽章法的時候當時的數位也是跟我們承諾說推動電子簽章法之後未來能夠減少這種名人冒名詐騙的問題那到底電子簽章法已經正式三讀通過之後到底能不能做到所謂防止名人詐騙的問題"},{"start":10629.495,"end":10645.233,"text":"電子簽章法讓我們有個機制能夠做數位簽章來做就確認是KYC可是那個剛剛講像比如說網告平台商他要不要用數位簽章需要另一個法來要求他們一定要做這個事情那這個法就是我們現在在進行的打炸裝法"},{"start":10645.894,"end":10659.802,"text":"那這個如果通過的話他必須廣告必須要做實名制那實名制一個方法就是用電子簽方數位簽章來做認證這個是一個方法那這個罰你是罰這個廣告商還是罰平台業者"},{"start":10661.905,"end":10680.809,"text":"這個我們如果推動了新的法律你要罰的是誰對他如果沒有配合我們做這個剛講打詐的話平台上是要被罰對沒錯所以未來有機會因為我很期待說什麼時候你去罰包括Facebook也好Google也好這些跨國公司因為他們在台灣到目前為止這麼詐騙詐騙案例這麼氾濫"},{"start":10683.59,"end":10706.257,"text":"不管臉書也好Line也好Google也好他們是主要的這個詐騙的平台當然你要罰內容業者內容產生者是沒問題但是我要問的是說這些平台他到底有沒有義務去規範那他如果沒有達到我們法律要求他們有去規範那我們的政府什麼時候才會對Facebook也好或對Google或對YouTube或對Line也好開出第一張罰單目前有開過罰單嗎目前都沒有嘛"},{"start":10707.817,"end":10725.295,"text":"打詐裝法通過我們就可以他如果沒有配合做剛剛講這些事情配合下架或者處理或是他沒有做KYC沒有做這個實名制的認證的話我們就可以給他裁法對阿這個當然要還是要有法所以法的部分就是剛剛講的打詐裝法通過之後我們會做這個事情"},{"start":10726.396,"end":10739.686,"text":"打造專法通過之後,包含Facebook這個公司,他也會在你們的裁罰範圍裡面,不會只有平台業,不會只有所謂的代理商,廣告業者被罰,連這個平台本身都被罰嗎?對,對,對。好,部長,那最後一個問題,這個"},{"start":10742.748,"end":10761.862,"text":"你在捲包裡面提到所謂的這個第三方支付也是你們的管制的這個目標但是因為第三方支付跟電子支付不一樣電子支付有金管會的問金管會要認證才有電子支付第三方支付平台他是很多很多有幾千間幾百間這個平台業者是所有的你們都有能力能量去追查嗎還是要透過其他方式"},{"start":10762.322,"end":10787.384,"text":"我們已經在第三次已經實施比如說那個能量登錄能量登錄已經讓我們這1萬多家登記的第三次現在只有53家通過就是我們可以集中管理這53家那沒登錄怎麼辦我現在其實問題就是說因為登錄很少他沒有那個經過我們能量登錄的人他在銀行就沒辦法拿到所謂的帳號也就是說金管會金融單位根本就是說會排除這些金融單位要給"},{"start":10788.625,"end":10811.76,"text":"這個第三方支付業者的所謂的虛擬帳號必須是有能量登錄過的人那能量過的人他要做什麼事情他要確認他來登廣告或是他要申請這個虛擬帳號的人必須是實名制也就是他必須是真正的所以就是這個讓很多詐騙的人不敢再就沒有辦法再通過我們認證過的53家的這個第三方支付去要拿到所謂的虛擬帳號"},{"start":10812.961,"end":10825.196,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10826.006,"end":10850.794,"text":"第三方支付這個也要謝謝金管會他主導都虛擬帳號那現在他如果沒有在我這裡登錄非這53家的那他就不會給他虛擬帳號他就沒辦法付錢是不是那你說以前他沒做第三方支付那我們還是去查核如果他有願意要做那所以就不會像一萬多家沒辦法控制現在100天以來這官立場我們會來努力所以謝謝委員的指導謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":10854.156,"end":10876.852,"text":"謝謝。黃建豪委員發言完畢。現在請鍾嘉斌委員發言。主席、在場委員先進。列席的政府教授、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。有請黃部長。請黃部長。"},{"start":10885.448,"end":10908.626,"text":"委員好部長好你有沒有發現今天大家都問打詐有沒有在你意料之中可以期盼對因為這是很重要的議題所以對沒錯那我想很多委員的前面的都講出來了我來自於司法法制委員會法務部一直希望能夠增加檢察官助理或檢察事務官就是說要人手其實我們知道上游們最好隨頭保持底下防堵最困難大家都同意嘛要源頭管理是不是這樣"},{"start":10910.093,"end":10933.547,"text":"來到源頭管理嘛源頭管理很重要但是對我講說大家一起努力這應該是都要一起都要做好那源頭管理大家都提到了網路廣告是一切詐欺的源頭三個月高達三萬件這些內容就是詐欺的源頭你同意嗎這些網路廣告很嚴重而且金額滿高的那目前我們要去管這個網路的廣告他的平台業者"},{"start":10934.187,"end":10942.681,"text":"以FB來講他可以去偵測你的廣告內容有沒有含政治啦購物啦球球金融內容如果你覺得以FB的能力他們做到可以去偵測詐欺"},{"start":10944.434,"end":10944.934,"text":"他們應該有能力有能力"},{"start":10975.074,"end":10995.099,"text":"我的了解是我們那個法案通過後我們是可以罰款你們是可以罰款目前的想法是罰款對好後面限制到速度或封網也可以評估好不好對好再往下看那另外呢行政院把他說一定規模他才去處理這個廣告平台業者啦那這個規模的計算他包括數位部或星際你們數位部有想法的嗎什麼叫一定規模以上"},{"start":10995.879,"end":11020.819,"text":"一定規模以上是不是已經成熟了?簡單講,因為時間有限。謝謝委員。你正在想嗎?對不對?因為這個有在討論。一定規模就是...你剛才講那個裡面Meta、Google這些都會在裡面。好,來,那個部長。但是如果未達你們的規模,不管你們的規模有多大,那詐欺廣告也會化整為零啊,專門找小規模的平台業者啊,找廣告平台。舉例來說,以我們的年紀,我們成長的時候,"},{"start":11021.539,"end":11039.049,"text":"以前的報紙加廣告也都很氾濫射情、詐騙後來要實名登記制結果這些廣告就往哪裡往樓梯間大樓的牆面就亂貼那這些怎麼管那時候的中央政府是新聞局管但是小零星的流竄的就地方政府環保局是不是這樣"},{"start":11040.069,"end":11067.537,"text":"所以如果大規模的廣告平台你們管那小規模的你們要有沒有分工分流有沒有想法小規模這個不好委員這個第一個當然是先管大規模當然先抓大但是小的也不能放小的話再來看如果他的那個到變成是一個問題的時候我們當然也要進去管好很好你們有積極齁好如果你不完全納管他就逃入了法外之地如果你們只管一定規模上的廣告平台小規模的未歸管就容易詐欺那這個時候如果要他實名制有沒有法源"},{"start":11068.427,"end":11087.02,"text":"小規模實名制,我想如果他的片還到來,那個一旦...還是要一旦一定規模嘛,對對跟委員報告齁,因為這個規模因為是授權執法,所以如果他這樣跑去的話,然後社會就覺得說這個要處理,我們機動可以處理啊,因為那是執法嘛,對對對,就是執法上面然後做那些...往下看"},{"start":11093.404,"end":11119.723,"text":"來過去我跟郭委員曾經對於第三方智庫輪迴詐團的幫手召開記者會那當時要求要比照虛擬通貨提出法尊聲明而且要兩個月內完成登記好現在來了過去在他的營燈事項頁目當中有列三支的有12000家實際經營的大概上百家目前通過審核的有82家登錄只通過53家是不是這樣子對那未來我們是不是要繼續審查"},{"start":11122.468,"end":11146.705,"text":"會嘛齁?只要他做三支你們要審查嗎?這個再請署長拍照跟我們報告齁 現在有13家有同櫃啊來 因為現在還會陸陸續續登啊我們會去審查所以只要他沒有做到洗錢房子服務能量登錄他就不得提供境外公司也是如此嘛對不對然後我們會有一些洗錢房子的查核所以這個洗房法我們有幾點那你們用什麼手段來防止限制他提供服務"},{"start":11147.125,"end":11175.011,"text":"有沒有辦法禁止金融機構跟他交易?他就沒有那個虛擬帳號所以你如果不是這53金融就不給他虛擬帳號來部長請聽現在我們金融會配合協調的就是已經不合與虛擬帳號如果他不完成登錄但是我認為不合與虛擬帳號是減少他的殺傷力並沒有完全禁止他的破壞力啦簡單講這些三支呢只要沒有完成登錄他高風險金融機構不可以虛擬帳戶但是根據銀行法第45條之一"},{"start":11177.216,"end":11188.865,"text":"銀行要建立內機內控銀行法第129條第1項第7款他可以處於華凡你們可不可以協調金管會直接禁止金融機構跟他交易或者停止解析境外網域可以抓到這一點嗎"},{"start":11189.904,"end":11211.046,"text":"我們在跟金管會就是在這裡面有一些共識所以所以會那個那那這個這個停止解析金管委員這個如果有法如果有有法員對有法員那趕快跟我們講我們訂進去好不好跟我們報告這因為過去這多少委員提醒啊這樣子我們會後我們跟金管會看他在銀行法或是銀行法相關規定裡頭怎麼去做執行因為這種"},{"start":11213.308,"end":11236.896,"text":"我們一邊來修嘛好不好我過去有在財政委員會啦我來去協調最後主席站起來了我就做個結論希望你們比照金融機構第三方支付要成立工會啦他律也要自律啦那是不是請今晚會我們去請他徵詢香港工會的意見第三方支付也有專屬的工會比照金融機構成立專屬工會建立自律塊你們樂不樂見"},{"start":11238.815,"end":11244.739,"text":"這個我覺得很好很好很好謝謝我會跟今晚會的主委來報告這一點謝謝謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言完畢現在請王洪威委員發言好謝謝主席我請黃部長請黃部長好委員好"},{"start":11268.201,"end":11281.957,"text":"部長因為我本人對你比較陌生那我今天看到好像今天媒體有問你問題你今天不就是不回答媒體的問題單純只是生理上喉嚨沙啞還是你比較謹言慎行"},{"start":11284.12,"end":11285.301,"text":"剛才確實大家都是提到有關於法詐的"},{"start":11313.319,"end":11314.04,"text":"對,他應該有跟你那個complain這件事情吧?"},{"start":11333.925,"end":11357.453,"text":"有那我也請那個那時候馬上計時處理半月都在處理那時候我們那個那個呂書長有在書長是不是可以說明一下就趕快下架委員報告那因為這個委員也有在新聞上面說這個那副市長就很關心所以我們就因為算名人嘛因為這個部長嘛所以我們就請他去做下架那目前他這兩則的確實都已經下架所以這個以上報告"},{"start":11358.473,"end":11383.675,"text":"可是問題是還有很多的名人我上次聽到一個企業主管他是他的老闆跟他抱怨他幾乎每個禮拜都在處理要求他們處理就是冒他的名做這種投資的這種平台這個問題仍然沒有辦法解決那到底是為什麼那另外我們到底這個實名制那個機管會說已經有上路了但是為什麼還是會出現這樣的問題呢"},{"start":11386.857,"end":11392.539,"text":"還像這個郭部長還是會變成冒名成為詐騙工具呢?但是我們在通過之前能不能跟這些Google Meta請他們要必須予以配合呢?"},{"start":11410.065,"end":11435.957,"text":"經過我們其實在上一屆我們不停的質詢然後我們後來林佑昌部長後來才去代會了包含Google跟Meta那讓他們可以說24小時內下架以前連下架都非常困難可是這樣子大家疲於奔命到底我們一定要等到我們打詐在專訪通過之後才能夠根除這些問題嗎"},{"start":11437.057,"end":11459.554,"text":"我們現在先成立一個叫打詐通報查詢網那這個問題就是說希望能夠縮短就是說基本上如果我們看到我們自己會主動去去這個像Facebook去scan如果看到這樣的一個廣告我們馬上就通報Facebook希望縮短剛剛講說半天或一天的時間現在我們是希望馬上下架所以這一點第一個我們時間上可以用技術把它縮短第二點就是說剛剛講委員講的沒錯我們會跟"},{"start":11462.556,"end":11485.225,"text":"這幾個平台公司常常的溝通聯絡然後希望他們完全配合我們的那個政策那目前有逐漸的看到一些效果但是但最後如果要用強制方法還是要靠打砸專法通過我們有棍子可以敲他們現在是說要求他們要在臺灣必須也要設立這個代表人嗎對不對至少要有法尊的代表對不對"},{"start":11486.385,"end":11504.239,"text":"那在這之前在法之前的話我們難道就完全沒有任何的工具嗎那還有未來這個打砸磚法是不是對他們會有這個罰則呢有會有罰則那如果打砸磚通過的話基本上就可以罰那罰到一個地步如果他們不配合我們甚至你們準備怎麼罰"},{"start":11507.066,"end":11522.723,"text":"這個罰的細節就是說每次委員最多可以罰到怎麼樣你們現在準備要怎麼罰對於這些近外的平台然後他們沒有設這個在台灣設代表人或者沒有配合我們這些打詐相關的這些程序要怎麼罰法呢"},{"start":11523.544,"end":11523.664,"text":"網絡廣告平台業者"},{"start":11540.215,"end":11566.683,"text":"這個每一條文的這個設計法則那這個法則最高可以處罰到這個2500萬那中間當然有一些通知的期限啊等等那這個在行政院在打詐司法討論的時候我們這個打詐專法的第三章其實政委有做跨部會的一個橫平性那這個要拜託委員如果我們這個法律在審查的時候那委員早一點讓法律通過我們能夠有一個法尊的部分謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":11568.844,"end":11590.664,"text":"最高的話是2500萬有連續罰嗎?因為他這個甚至有些如果還經專家會議審議可以有時候限制流量或是阻擋連結這些我們都在條文裡頭有一些規範那我想這個其實大家對打詐都非常的重視也拜託大家委員來給我們做協助以上報告"},{"start":11591.184,"end":11592.005,"text":"王宏威委員發言完畢,現在請葛如君委員發言"},{"start":11623.896,"end":11624.699,"text":"謝謝主席有請黃彥男部長備詢請部長"},{"start":11636.447,"end":11660.832,"text":"王部長好好久不見其實我們10多年前就已經見過面了當時我坐在您旁邊有很多的學習很高興今天有機會在交通委員會透過質詢來跟您交流那部長今天的業務報告和媒體專訪當中都有提到數位部接下來要推出的這個三件啟發的策略那內容當中有許多方向是與本席的想法相近的同時我也非常肯定您提到這個數位經濟"},{"start":11662.452,"end":11679.045,"text":"所以經濟是AI未來發展的這個康莊大道同時也是元宇宙的基石我相信這個這幾支箭都是非常有希望的那以下就來針對部長的這三支箭來跟您交流第一點數位發展部過去在電子信箱法的修正案的討論過程當中其實非常的支持"},{"start":11679.645,"end":11697.327,"text":"那也說會拿來打擊詐騙各界的共識之下也順利的在4月底三如通過那本席非常樂見這個部長的第一支箭就是推動打詐工作剛剛也提到3個月內要成立這個打詐通查網那你也提到這個裡面希望仰賴民間業者的協助"},{"start":11698.308,"end":11718.598,"text":"除了剛剛提到的很多廠商之外廣告平台商也是有能力去偵測詐騙帳號的如果這些GAFA可以多做一點事情的話可能會減少很多詐騙請問一下部長有跟哪些平台聯繫的因為剛剛都零星人有提到我這邊就確認一下有跟哪些平台聯繫的聯繫的進度如何廣告平台商對那個那個署長可以"},{"start":11719.518,"end":11741.983,"text":"委員報告謝謝委員讓我們有說明的機會其實我們次長上禮拜上任第一週禮拜五就已經找Google Meta9來討論針對於打詐專法裡頭相關的一些些規範執行上怎麼處理那以及跟委員所來幫忙大家在一起支持的電子簽詐法之後如何在打詐專法草案的第30條能夠用"},{"start":11743.843,"end":11768.628,"text":"數位簽章或者FIDO或者是其他安全性的技術來驗證所以這些細節的部分應該一邊在你草案同時甚至還有一些執法要討論所以林次長已經有主持會以上報告時間有限感謝你都有達到了剛剛我們這個週末的時候這個在Meta這個平台被洗版看到很多名人接下來其實很多免費的YouTube的用戶也開始被詐騙集團的這些影片廣告給這個投遞那LINE更不用講更是一個大宗"},{"start":11773.689,"end":11801.315,"text":"當然我相信這些公司都沒有意要這個協助犯罪者那我想政府也必然有責任要來跟他們一起連結啦那我們另外一個問題也想請教一下這個通查網在建制的時候很可能也是希望大家來通報嘛對不對那讓你們可以查詢有沒有要導入電子簽章或數位身份的驗證行動自然人憑證TWCA的身份驗證讓檢舉人可以更快的驗證檢舉人的身份來幫助你們通知這些平台更快的下架這些廣告"},{"start":11801.795,"end":11823.451,"text":"因為這些平台在意的是什麼?到底是不是真正的人在檢舉?有沒有思考過要導入這個?這個當然是如果這個是就是如果我們要驗證通報人的身份當然要用這些工具好謝謝希望考慮一下那同時呢也部長也提到強化數位韌性是你的第二支箭那資安非常重要你們有這個資安檢測協助的服務但是目前只針對企業來提供資安檢測的服務"},{"start":11827.714,"end":11844.883,"text":"二零二二年臺大的兩個網站被害二零二三年臺大教務處的網站被害二零二四年期間大高中呢這個這個相關的被害兩萬筆資料流出那有沒有要提供民間團體學校數發部有沒有來輔導這個能不能稍微回應一下我們請那個"},{"start":11845.703,"end":11848.646,"text":"委員會對有些服務團幫助做一些服務那過去有些績效我是不是請那個署長先說"},{"start":11859.451,"end":11869.725,"text":"好的謝謝委員因為治安的是必須聯防所以其實我們所有發現的那個就是案件或者是他攻擊的樣態我們是會對民間分享我問的是治安檢測服務網目前只針對企業提供服務"},{"start":11878.55,"end":11900.684,"text":"而且還有30家優惠名額那學校呢?民間團體呢?政府單位呢?我們剛剛提到的全部都不是企業啊除了政府機關以外我們那個中小企業的部分我們今年會來擴大來協助提供這樣的服務對不起我時間有限我打斷你因為我剛剛問的是政府我不要問中小企業我也沒有要問企業"},{"start":11901.164,"end":11925.996,"text":"麻煩回去稍微了解一下這個資安檢測服務應該要幫助更多人第三支鍵部長提到數位經濟我想數位經濟這兩字很微妙又有數位又有經濟我在這邊這個過去8年我們作為公民來觀察以及本席上任以來100天的質詢經驗裡面我已經發現只要有一個產業超過一個以上的部位在負責相安無事的時候有錢大家分"},{"start":11926.676,"end":11936.224,"text":"但是出事的時候沒有人要扛,最後都在踢皮球。你踢給他,他踢給你。請問一下部長,數位經濟既然是數位又是經濟,數位部打算怎麼和相關部會分工?"},{"start":11937.313,"end":11961.531,"text":"數位經濟我們最主要是剛剛講就是軟體服務業嘛然後資訊服務業這是我們現在主要這個還有就是相關的像電商呢這些軟體出版業所以我們有些產業是我們要輔導那因為這些產業有AI會用AI跟資安的技術所以AI的產業資安產業也是我們要輔導的好希望注意一下分工那南北AI生態園區有預算規模有實成了嗎到底是著重軟體還是硬體"},{"start":11963.349,"end":11977.763,"text":"我們跟那個國發會的那個劉部長劉主委現在還在討論中不過現在是這樣子就是基本上我們是希望全島都是一個AI島然後這個AI所謂生態園區應該是跨全島而且是軟硬整合"},{"start":11978.143,"end":11985.889,"text":"好,真的是有很多事要做,真的拜託這個部長我們一起努力,那最後我問一下這個剛剛我有聽到您的答詢,說這個問您說怎麼來這個阻止這個詐騙盛行,您有提到說這個聲音這個被偽造的部分"},{"start":11996.578,"end":11997.779,"text":"通關密語的方式。"},{"start":12011.894,"end":12031.967,"text":"應該已經知道公告出來了嘛 對不對已經公告了但是呢這個我們這個電子簽章法呢這一次有排除電子簽章法的公告原則上路以後一年以後各部會都不可以排除這一年已經開始倒數到今天已經過了13天過了3%了有沒有建立輔導的機制跟掌握時程的規劃對不起主席再借30秒謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12033.848,"end":12053.473,"text":"議員．"},{"start":12053.593,"end":12078.164,"text":"政府機關能夠把電子簽章法能夠快速來做導入如果有的話請提供給本席那也特別希望數發部真的要持續幫忙尤其司法體系真的他們的工作量能應該要用數位來協助同時電子簽章法也已經上路總統也公告了我相信各單位還有所有的民眾也都非常的期待希望我們可以一起努力達到便利民眾便利公務人員的流程減輕工作負擔任務謝謝"},{"start":12079.622,"end":12096.171,"text":"好,謝謝葛瑜君委員發言完畢。現在請黃珊珊委員發言。謝謝主席,我請部長。請部長。委員好。"},{"start":12104.406,"end":12121.364,"text":"是部長我想大家都還是非常關心的都是詐騙的問題那當然數發部是新成立的一個最新的部但是對於詐騙大概也是很重要的一個部門我們是一個ICT大國但是我們的數位建設好像並沒有非常的先進對吧"},{"start":12122.609,"end":12143.89,"text":"數位建設其實我們過去這幾年像比如說數位政府推了20年其實我們推很多東西並不輸給國外像電子花票啦我們網路報稅但是我們如果去一趟美國大概已經不太看得到美金了甚至你去一趟大陸大概也看不到人民幣可是台灣的電子支付還是不夠普遍這可能也是數八部接下去需要做的事"},{"start":12144.966,"end":12174.766,"text":"好接下來我想問一下有關詐騙因為唐鳳部長在的時候我們有一再問他現在的詐騙案包括虛擬資產包括第三方支付大概都是最新興的產業那這些產業他可能因為他的便利性成為詐騙的工具之一所以現在的問題是我們抓了很多很多的詐騙的犯人但是我們找不到被詐騙的錢主委同意吧部長同意吧"},{"start":12175.486,"end":12203.882,"text":"我們事實上應該這樣講去年就根據我手上的資料去年我們這個阻擋了這個詐騙的錢跟扣留的錢差不多將近100億所以事實上是有些錢還是有追回來的但是很多是追不回來有些是追不回來大部分的被害人都是收到一個判決書然後車手沒錢了再見沒有沒有下一步所以我們希望的是能夠成立一個不管是現在打詐專法還有現在正在審的期錢防治法"},{"start":12205.049,"end":12229.756,"text":"部長現在的問題是我們現在目前為止包括我就舉虛擬資產來當例子好了他跟調查局跟刑事局有一定的溝通的管道他每一個單位要通報銀行他就沒有管道然後跟165跟警察之間要靠傳真來做聯絡甚至法院會跟虛擬資產業者調資料但是也沒有平台"},{"start":12230.456,"end":12249.037,"text":"檢察官也會調資料也沒有平台那現在這個問題是所有的通報機制都是互相斷開的也就是說大部分目前為止可能我是虛擬資產業者我也很想通報我這邊的異常狀況可是我並沒有任何的機制所以我在唐鳳部長在的時候我就跟他說"},{"start":12250.118,"end":12270.143,"text":"這些事情其實你要法務部或者是金管會來做其實很困難的數發部大概是目前政府部門裡面對於這些相關的機制包括之前很成功的111政府簡訊平台還有徵信券還有疫情期間其實數發部是應該有能力來建置這個平台部長同意嗎"},{"start":12270.723,"end":12297.598,"text":"就是我們那個短碼平台本來就是我的意思是說將來的詐騙防詐的平台包括虛擬制裁業者包括第三方支付包括現在有的銀行之間他們現在完全沒有聯絡虛擬制裁業者跟銀行是沒有辦法接觸的但是他們很多賬戶是同一個我要講的是民眾要的是我們要我們扣錢的速度要比詐騙集團來得快我們才扣得住錢"},{"start":12299.859,"end":12321.775,"text":"對,報告委員所以我從那個打詐通報查詢網就是希望能夠很快的但是現在這些都沒有進到你的查詢網對還沒有查詢網還沒有成為部長我需要你的時間雖然你剛上任我覺得這件事情很重要打詐專法出來了洗錢方針法出來了但是平台沒有建置起來就等於是沒有用所以3個月之後3個月之後我們會建立這個平台3個月對"},{"start":12323.397,"end":12338.48,"text":"我現在有碰到一個問題我們現在正在審洗錢防治法那洗錢防治法我們查了一下數發部到今年為止數發部也是洗錢防治的一個重要的機關但是你們部裡面有關洗錢防治專業證照的人有多少"},{"start":12341.03,"end":12368.909,"text":"因為我們成立一年多那其中一位同仁其實也到國外去受訓所以會有一位有一位有一位他去韓國受訓這個人才培養所以要謝謝委員的指導我們會努力那因為我們負責的是洗錢房子裡頭第三方支付這一塊那虛擬資產這一塊當然就跟經管會來去做協作那經管會不管過去的主委先生主委都要做我們不能夠落後人家我們是洗錢房子就我們人員只有一個"},{"start":12370.169,"end":12370.389,"text":"數位金融"},{"start":12389.035,"end":12411.206,"text":"這些都應該在行前方式上面有一定的功勞就絕對不能夠落後好嗎最後就是你們的你們在管第三方支付那金管會又管電子支付超過一定規模所以部長認為第三方支付應該是你管還是金管會管現在第三方支付我們已經在處理了但是你會管嗎你管金流嗎"},{"start":12412.413,"end":12427.472,"text":"我們就是有個能量登錄他那個那個他要去申請虛擬帳號一定要經過我們能量登錄所以現在就是很多的新興的科技都有不同的管道但是如果打炸要必攻其一役我們希望你能夠把這個部分"},{"start":12428.453,"end":12448.023,"text":"包括剛剛講的虛擬資產他在管第三方支付你在管但是平台之間不聯絡這才是我要問的是數發部應該來統合讓這些單位聯絡在一起他用了虛擬賬戶可能又跟第三方支付有關可能又跟銀行賬戶有關他其實是需要一個系統來統合"},{"start":12449.264,"end":12450.245,"text":"謝謝黃森山委員發言完畢 現在請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":12480.082,"end":12480.704,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":12489.642,"end":12512.258,"text":"委員好部長好部長數發部第一次來立法院業務報告大家也都很期待從一年多之前數發部的成立國人都很期待希望數發部真的能夠做實事您接下這個部長本席也對您有所期待首先在打詐的部分國人還是非常的關注那我們現在在講是說因為"},{"start":12513.759,"end":12536.08,"text":"訴發部決定要加速封網是不是就是說詐騙的一個部分封網要有這個要有法而且要有那個執法單位的同意我們不會說隨意就封網還是要根據法沒有辦法隨意封網但過去大家到現在看到的是說因為詐騙層出不窮那不管是之前的詐騙或是說像之前吵得沸沸揚揚的這個創意私房的一個"},{"start":12539.242,"end":12566.136,"text":"狀況就變成是說山不管地帶啊衛福部推給速發部速發部推給NCCNCC再說所以就變成是說大家在那邊繞圈圈那真的是因為國人群起嘩然之後創意私房才一直公文命令可以火速的封網所以我們要講是說未來還有那麼多不管是創意私房或者是說這些詐騙的網站一夜市的網站一夜市的網頁我們要怎麼樣能夠比較源頭的來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":12568.194,"end":12584.356,"text":"一頁式的網頁我們目前並沒有辦法去封它因為那個我們用的是像DNS這樣子我們一封就是封整個網所以封整個網需要有法源的依據那一頁式網頁它可能是依附在社群媒體平台"},{"start":12584.936,"end":12611.975,"text":"對 所以這個東西就會靠我剛剛講就是說我們有開始有些像剛剛講的打炸通報查詢網希望就是讓民眾或是我們自己去scan去找到這種一夜市的網頁之後我們可以很快的通知不管是平台商或是平台服務商或是這樣就這樣要趕快下架希望他們下架的時間能夠縮短好部長您這樣提到一個重點了我們能夠希望預期多久時間能夠讓社群媒體平台下架"},{"start":12613.888,"end":12634.809,"text":"那個目前這個通報網像我們那個如果那個打詐狀況通過之後我們當然希望即時下因為它如果不即時下架我們是可以罰錢那現在的做法是說我們目前所看到的是像臉書啊這些東西有時候會拖到一天或甚至兩天那經過我們這樣的查詢希望能夠縮短到比如說半天之內把它下架"},{"start":12635.029,"end":12635.229,"text":"是部長"},{"start":12654.679,"end":12682.099,"text":"本席提醒喔其實從2021年當時的東京奧運的時候我就開過一個記者會就有媒體就有民眾來跟我反映他看到一夜市詐騙東京奧運中華隊口罩中華隊對一他詐騙集團很聰明啊他們會用最熱門的話題啊WBC世界棒球經典賽紅的時候他們就說是賣世界棒球經典賽的衣服那民眾下單下訂了買到了他用貨到付款的方式"},{"start":12682.819,"end":12697.79,"text":"真的付了錢一打開啊裡面一樣是有寄來衣服啊但他那個衣服跟網頁上的衣服完全不一樣那這就是一頁是詐騙嘛所以這樣的一個網頁我們已經看到了結果通常都還會掛在那邊而且"},{"start":12699.129,"end":12721.917,"text":"詐騙集團很囂張阿他下面還有那個計時器一直講說現在有多少人買了多少人買了趕快下訂喔那這樣子未來半天內有效可以剛剛下架是嗎就是說我們會跟平台商剛剛講說溝通就是說像這種那個民眾如果是像這種真的去買這種不實的東西的時候的通報所以我希望平台商能夠盡速的處理"},{"start":12723.217,"end":12749.838,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":12749.938,"end":12775.589,"text":"提供這樣的一個分數的訊息至少有民眾說我買的東西是假的那這個東西他抱怨了以後他給他一顆心或兩顆心等於是擦皮就對了就我們現在也要把那個炸片網站也可以比說PC或蝦皮他們都有這種分數嘛是那就跟民眾在採購的時候看到這個分數才知道說我可不可以跟這個廠商下單因為這個確實牽涉到廠商心理問題部長這個三個月內可以出來"},{"start":12776.129,"end":12776.329,"text":"有沒有討論過?"},{"start":12803.867,"end":12815.121,"text":"他們的意向如何?他們是持開放的態度還是覺得說你政府部門不要管我其他國家都沒有這樣用為什麼我要特別配合我們中華民國政府他們的態度如何?"},{"start":12816.357,"end":12839.84,"text":"有人說的沒有錯,事實上我們在上個禮拜五已經跟幾個主要的網路廣泰商跟他們溝通過。他們第一個抱怨就是說他們是因為都是國外很多大型的平台都是國外的公司,他們說他們要遵守母國的那個法律規定等等。那我就提醒他們說既然你們到了台灣做生意,你們還是得遵守台灣的法律。"},{"start":12840.14,"end":12857.892,"text":"是就像台灣的公司到美國日本去做生意一定要遵守他們的法律那另外一件事情就是他們也有在抱怨說他們需要18個月才能修改他們的程式那我們也就提醒他比如說現在臉書他本來就有限制說"},{"start":12858.752,"end":12862.114,"text":"2020年的時候政治類的廣告要投放預算廣告要下廣告最後要實名制了"},{"start":12881.286,"end":12895.907,"text":"2020年的時候就要了就到2024年那些詐騙集團下詐騙廣告還不用實名制莫名其妙嗎是那我們這一這部分我們會分為兩個管道來兩方式來處理一個就是我們在打詐新法"},{"start":12896.728,"end":12920.741,"text":"通過之後我們有一些法律上的手段可以對這些網路平台商處以罰款那另外一方面我們就希望藉由那個輿論還有的壓力就是因為這涉及到他們的商譽那我們也會提醒民眾說來部長最後一分鐘好不好因為主席已經站起來部長其實剛剛這樣子講我想這也是過去我們一直在這些詐騙裡面遇到的狀況"},{"start":12921.881,"end":12945.282,"text":"已經說穿了啦 他們沒有什麼18個月才能改程式啦 如果今天可以賺錢的Program 18個小時他們可能工程師加班也都趕出來啊 因為這個不是賺錢的 這個是相對來講會限制他們的收益的 還有就是這個東西是付出成本的 所以當然能拖就拖嘛 我現在沒有指責任何一個社群媒體平台"},{"start":12945.862,"end":12967.802,"text":"但是我們要的是他要散盡社會責任不能讓社群媒體平台變成是詐騙集團的一個溫床或是詐騙集團的管道來去媒介去投資投放詐騙廣告所以部長除了剛剛講的詐騙專法通過你能不能多跟他們高層也好多約喝幾次咖啡"},{"start":12969.123,"end":12990.662,"text":"來要求他們善盡社會責任對啦就是說會要求然後會希望他們配合我們台灣來做打詐的工作好部長我們會持續的來跟你溝通我也希望真的做出實際的成績好不好好這一點再拜託謝謝洪委員的發言現在請游浩委員發言"},{"start":13005.046,"end":13005.947,"text":"請部長請黃部長謝謝趙委員部長"},{"start":13014.359,"end":13038.354,"text":"委員好部長好那部長就是今天大家許多的議題都環繞在打詐的部分還有包括之前您所提出的三支箭的部分所以其實在今天許多委員的質詢可以看得出大家對於您上任數位發展部部長跟您新的包括次長以及大家整體團隊是有很深的期待尤其是大家更是期待希望能夠在"},{"start":13038.954,"end":13061.351,"text":"您帶領的這個數位發展部跟以前的這個部的情況來講能夠做出明顯的差異跟進步進展那所以說剛才回歸到像孟凱委員有提到就是在打詐的這個通報網的部分以及包括剛才建豪委員有提到那其實在這個通報網還包括專線那以及包括像我們看到現在詐騙的部分是層出不窮"},{"start":13061.971,"end":13082.722,"text":"議員．"},{"start":13082.802,"end":13104.507,"text":"其實民眾尤其在中南部鄉下大家所缺乏的是大家並沒有辦法取得那麼好的一些工具或是包括這些網站或是這些知識或這些宣導的一些要注意的事項那如何能夠來去強化尤其在中南部在鄉下地方來去解決大家對於這個打詐或是防詐騙的這個知識的宣導"},{"start":13105.967,"end":13129.669,"text":"我們那個就是會有一些宣導的一些服務跟團隊然後再利用這個地方比如說像DOC這樣去做一些教訓練那當然我也講過就是說我們會把一些詐騙的看到詐騙拍成端影或是文字再利用這個社群平台或是他去做宣導那當然這個鄉下的這個下鄉的很多工作我們已經在做"},{"start":13130.109,"end":13146.688,"text":"是那個我們系署長這樣子好了我這就是提一下這個部分那也我也不追這個預算變劣跟明年度的這個預算大約目前的這個成效跟執行率那我直接就是今天就是第一次嘛不能一直質詢嘛"},{"start":13147.188,"end":13169.256,"text":"那還是期向是期許啊這個三支線的這個包括打仗的部分能夠有所成效那也知道您跟國發會主委劉靜清交換意見完共同要籌設這個AI的生態園區那在南北還各設一座園區力拼數位經濟產值兩年內突破一兆的目標啊這是好事一件但是本期想要請教一下目前這兩個地方預計這個園區建設在哪裡"},{"start":13172.558,"end":13198.261,"text":"我還沒有跟劉主委在我們要進一步討論那剛剛有講說其實有很多那個很多地方其實都都都還蠻合適說我們盡量跟地方政府配合不過現在就是這樣就是說有基本原則我跟劉主委談的是有個共識就我們希望這個園區一開始是兩個但以後可能不只兩個但是這兩個一開始應該是要離高鐵站很近就是說大家在彼此的這個這個交通都都可以很快所以"},{"start":13199.162,"end":13206.308,"text":"應該會在高鐵的附近,那至於說在哪裡,我想我們後面會再做更進一步說明。對,那個,謝謝部長,因為我聽到一個聲音,變成這樣,變成,南島就比較吃虧了。對啊,南島就沒高鐵站了。南島,南島,我們就是剛講,因為"},{"start":13217.718,"end":13236.677,"text":"這個園區是上中下游都有啦所以不會說只有在那個地方就是說我們上游可能在所謂的這個辦公室但是中游跟下游都是遍佈全省所以為什麼說要交通快就是說我們期望就是這個AI的成果能夠推動到第一個國內第二個到國外所以南投一定是我們一定會有服務在那邊沒問題"},{"start":13237.838,"end":13263.543,"text":"因為像賴清德總統他選前提出逃出苗大溪谷計畫其實現在目前許多縣市都遇到土地不夠的問題跟聲音那所以在這裡也特別也跟部長做邀請就是中部地區其實是急劇開發潛力加上其實在中部來進行這個AI生態園區的設置不僅是南投受惠啦整體中張投受惠相信它帶動的外溢效果是包括連北部南部我相信都會受惠"},{"start":13265.103,"end":13294.132,"text":"我們會再去評估再討論好謝謝那接著是也要再接著請教因為剛才許多的委員都有詢問到一些相關問題但是有幾個部分我也想要接著就教像年輕人現在愛用抖音啊那近期美國要求短影音平台TikTok強制脫離母公司自己的跳動若不遵守就要禁止TikTok在美國音樂城市的平台上架那想要就教部長在台灣會不會也會禁用到TikTok"},{"start":13294.925,"end":13314.564,"text":"我們實際上我們第一個就因為這個TikTok的危害對全世界民主國家都一樣那美國已經在做剛講就是要求他們在那個當地要落地嘛那我們這個大概幾個月就會發生了所以我現在希望是說我們先看美國怎麼做我們就效法美國的做法"},{"start":13314.904,"end":13339.308,"text":"那最壞他如果不願意在台灣落地我就把台灣的那個所謂的TikTok的那個連結連到美國的TikTok而不會去連中國的TikTok所以我們看到的TikTok是美國版的TikTok這是我所期待看到的所以就是說基本上我們可以從網域的設定這個網域的指定去把我們在台灣能夠接觸到的TikTok不會是不會是那種我們認為不好的不良的"},{"start":13340.349,"end":13355.751,"text":"這個部分的一個意見的溝通跟表達有跟TikTok的在就是相關平台的業者來去做?還沒有但是我跟你講第一個第一個是希望他們跟一樣要在台灣落地那當落地如果我剛剛講說如果落地不成我們就就在網路上做處理"},{"start":13356.792,"end":13375.894,"text":"好那接著另外一個議題就是臺灣也是很注重版權的地方啊那雖然發生許多抄襲的事件讓了遺憾但是媒體溢價還讓媒體報導資訊運用可以在網路社群平台利潤公平分配的問題那想要就教一下部長未來數法部有沒有朝向專法的方式"},{"start":13376.394,"end":13377.394,"text":"所以方向上是會往專法的方向來進行"},{"start":13396.563,"end":13397.243,"text":"最後我就是"},{"start":13426.592,"end":13446.258,"text":"數位身份證數位身份證部長您的態度跟看法數位身份證現在是因為這個當初我們要一個要專法還有個個資保護嘛這個要先過嘛那這個我們就等這個那目前其實有些取代的方法比如說FIDO就是說有些行動自然人憑證這個可以暫時先滿足現在這個網路上認證的需求不過"},{"start":13447.018,"end":13473.924,"text":"這個數位商證我們看就內政部在主導我們先看這些所謂的這些專法跟就是這個跟這個所謂的這個各自保護法在完備之後如果需要推動我們會配合推動那就是在立場上這個數位發展部還是會支持持續推動網路商證這有很多方法啦那數位商證是一個方法但是我們現在有所謂的FIDO有所謂的自然人憑證新中自然人憑證這個可以這個已經可以再運行我們就先用這一個這樣"},{"start":13478.855,"end":13485.838,"text":"謝謝油花委員,剛才也不小心誤案,跟油花委員抱歉。現在請林月琴委員發言請部長"},{"start":13501.636,"end":13525.134,"text":"您好部長好事實上過去我們台灣大概在NCC管電視台然後報業也有在做自律可是事實上網路事實上是我們最為擔心的就是自律的機制一直是不存在的那加上現在就是我們大概對TikTok這件事情"},{"start":13526.104,"end":13553.051,"text":"我們有很多的擔憂所在下一頁那目前TikTok的用戶最大宗的是青少年那青少年下一代又是我們最要守護的那從2023年TikTok的數據報告大概18到24青少年的用戶事實上是最多的那的確他在註冊的時候有限制要年齡使用要需滿13歲可是我們在民間團體的調查裡邊"},{"start":13555.376,"end":13576.256,"text":"未滿13歲的青少年實際上是有在使用的也就是大概三四年級的兒少就已經開始使用那請問一下這個狀況我不知道訴發部有掌握嗎因為既然成立了當初我們民間團體也是對於訴發部成立有非常高的期待所以也想問一下說部長對這件事情有充分掌握嗎"},{"start":13577.579,"end":13594.527,"text":"這個TikTok我還是想TikTok這個問題我個人是我覺得就像我剛剛講的這個TikTok就是有很多這個它的短影音它的所謂的這個內容是一個問題但是它這個後面所牽涉的假訊息是另外一個嚴重問題所以整個一起處理"},{"start":13595.367,"end":13615.708,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":13615.708,"end":13616.028,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13631.184,"end":13655.83,"text":"那這是另外我們有一些查詢的系統可以查詢TikTok上面的訊息的部長這個當然也是要各部會一起來不是單一可是實際上當數位成立數位發布當然也是期待除了數位的發展可是還是我常常覺得科技帶來文明可是它有時候同時帶來傷害所以抖音這件事情到底對孩子有什麼危害就是它的短影音本來就有"},{"start":13656.63,"end":13681.082,"text":"有一種讓人家上癮的那個演算機制不斷的去推下一個甚至他本身就是一個創作者那所以歐盟2024年大概2月份也提到說要進行一些調查去了解到說到底可能刺激行為成癮跟演算法的一些系統我不知道就是說今天訴發部到底對這個有沒有什麼樣的因應的對策"},{"start":13682.861,"end":13712.508,"text":"就是那個我剛就講說說那個現在就是因為這個影音這個這個這個我們暫時會是也是跨部會合作啦跟NCC等來一起合作那至於說這個TikTok這個問題就像講就是說我們希望未來能夠統一處理就是說能夠比如說有法律或者是說我們就剛剛講就是說如果我們將來這個東西能夠連到美國就美國如果通過TikTok落地我們也希望落地落地來管理"},{"start":13712.568,"end":13730.285,"text":"當然都會講說教育部這邊可是那事實上緩不濟急所以你可以看到這個影像當中自虐式的危險挑戰像傷痕挑戰這去年歐盟發生的這樣的一個事情甚至有一些昏迷的一個挑戰或者是瞌睡肌肉的一些挑戰"},{"start":13731.045,"end":13731.065,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":13750.683,"end":13768.238,"text":"做一些心理測驗還讓兒少誤以為自己心理上都有一些疾病狀況那所以我不知道就是訴發部對於這種危險挑戰毒品危害那健康資訊的錯誤到底有沒有一些可以怎麼去做防堵"},{"start":13769.707,"end":13797.042,"text":"對,我們前面有這樣說我們會有打詐查詢跟通報網如果大家民眾將來看到這些短的影音訊息如果不確定他剛講就是說比如說像這個毒品妨害或者是對身體的這個心理我們就會很快的送給比如說衛福部來看心理部處理如果這些訊息如果確實有一些不良的影響我們當然是希望能夠很快的再澄清或者是跟"},{"start":13798.403,"end":13823.719,"text":"下一頁,因為前面的已經是一個問題可是他們最新版的又推出那個TikTok Lite有一個鼓勵機制讓你可以賺到錢所以呢會鼓勵更多我們的青少年私商師會更想去做使用下一頁,那就TikTok Lite它的整個歐盟已經展開調查那我想先問的是說下一頁,這是未來"},{"start":13825.06,"end":13845.392,"text":"在臺灣使用TCOG的兒少人數的樣態這邊數法部是不是可以去掌握而且是不是跟著我們打造新法的腳步要求TCOG落地獲得內落地的管理甚至未來可不可以預計一下就在臺執行這種點數的獎勵計畫這邊數法部是不是也可以清楚去掌握"},{"start":13845.572,"end":13846.052,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員發言"},{"start":13874.672,"end":13896.959,"text":"現在請李坤誠委員發言在李坤誠委員發言之後張祺凱委員發言完畢我認為必須要讓大家休息沒有拜託因為大家都非常辛苦我也認為12點半之後沒有讓人家吃飯這都是不人性的"},{"start":13897.699,"end":13912.317,"text":"那我們在張祺凱委員發言完畢之後我們會休息半個小時現在請李昆城委員發言謝謝我們昆喆召委那也請我們黃部長請部長"},{"start":13919.406,"end":13944.919,"text":"委員好部長好第一次碰面辛苦了這個質詢到中午這個部長剛上任之前也接受蠻多的媒體的質詢詢問我覺得這是蠻好的跟媒體做一個溝通那你提到說這一個有三件有三支件第一支件打詐第二支件數位韌性第三支件是數位經濟那我看今天很多同仁都是聚焦在打詐這方面那我們這個打詐專法也送到立法院來了那打詐專法裡面"},{"start":13946.299,"end":13968.657,"text":"有部分條文是跟數位發展部有相關的那我請問一下就是說當然我認為數位發展部在這一個討論之前應該是有跟這一個各個網路平台有溝通過那現在這個已經送到立法院的版本那他們的看法是怎麼樣有跟他們在做後續的協調嗎有那個我們這個請市長因為上禮拜才跟他們開過會他可以做補充說明"},{"start":13970.498,"end":13995.067,"text":"因為我們對於這個專法裡面這個要求的我認為是還蠻多的第一個就是說要這個落實實名制然後這個他們在臺灣必須要有這個法律來代表然後呢那如果這個違反我們的規定的話我們有罰款最高是到2500萬然後呢這個那甚至如果說這個不聽的話我們還有這個封網應該類似封網的這個這個這個條文的規定嘛那請教一下次長"},{"start":13999.731,"end":14003.182,"text":"他們對於這個我們即將推動的打轉專法,他們的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":14005.823,"end":14032.051,"text":"我們在上個禮拜有跟幾個主要的那個網路跨國網路廣告平台我跟他們做溝通哪些公司就是Meta還有Google還有Line那他們的態度事實上算是相當配合但是有幾件事情第一個他們抱怨說那個他們都是美國或日本的公司所以他們要遵守當地母國的法律那我們也提醒他們說"},{"start":14032.711,"end":14060.124,"text":"沒有錯,但是你們這些跨國公司到臺灣來做生意你們還就得遵守臺灣的法律而且我們的這個打造專法有違反他們在母國的法律嗎?應該是沒有沒有嘛對所以這個我們就是希望他們配合然後另外一件事情是他們有在抱怨說那個他們如果要改程式的話必須報給母國公司然後母國的公司的技術團隊去做改變的話可能需要18個月等等"},{"start":14060.584,"end":14076.775,"text":"我認為這是推脫啦 是就是推脫之詞啦 是我念一下現在這個實名制 實名制現在是Google有寫實名制了嘛是不是網路廣告的這部分 有沒有投資廣告這部分的話 因為我廣告政治廣告的這個實名制他們也在施行了 對"},{"start":14077.976,"end":14102.775,"text":"網絡廣告的部分我們在打詐專法的第37條我們就規範說你這時候要用電子簽章或FIDO或相關合乎的技術來去做這樣的一個調整所以這個拜託委員到時候30條才對對不起30條是實名制的部分我們在這一個投信投過法裡面其實就要求你如果是廣告的話你就必須要採實名制那個是之前打詐無法的時候對但是因為這個"},{"start":14103.456,"end":14122.637,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":14123.636,"end":14144.134,"text":"臉書Line都沒有目前就是因為他說這個要我們現在用行政指導的部分但是因為這個實名制應該法還在修嘛所以這個到時候拜託委員多給我們知道這個我們一定會支持的那我意思是說就算我們通過之後他們還要18個月的時間嗎這個我們次長就會有我知道為什麼喝咖啡啊"},{"start":14144.614,"end":14173.469,"text":"喝咖啡速度會加快嗎?我們有提醒Meta就是說他們現在在Meta就是臉書上面的那個政治廣告已經要實名制了所以我們是認為說我們是認為說他們其實不用修改那個程式至少不用大幅修改只要把現有的機制把它從政治性廣告擴大到那個投資性的廣告上面只是把它範圍擴大一點而已對啊那所以這個基礎上是可行的那如果這個專法通過之後這個大概要求他們"},{"start":14174.89,"end":14190.005,"text":"從18個月可以降到多少?可以採市民資?那個如果我們那個通過之後他我們就可以他要求他配合對那如果不配合我們當然隨時可以罰他就罰他對他就可以罰他對好那所以如果這樣子的話他們應該不用18個月的時間吧對那那這個就是說那最快呢最快要多久?"},{"start":14191.315,"end":14219.168,"text":"我們法通過之後馬上就可以進行那當然就是就是如果我們就是剛剛講就是他如果不配合我們打詐的話我們當然就可以隨時發那看這個法什麼時候通過我們什麼時候好那我再問TikTok最後的時間TikTok這個這個前部長他是認為說他是一個危害的產品那我問一下部長的看法勒那個我是我也是一樣的看法就是說這個東西有太多假訊息在上面了所以對確實是我們應該處理好那這個TikTok要如何管理勒"},{"start":14219.773,"end":14221.134,"text":"在台灣要落地管理嗎?有跟他們先溝通過了嗎?"},{"start":14242.458,"end":14243.439,"text":"那有關於這個假訊息的管理委員會這部分勒?"},{"start":14254.212,"end":14275.427,"text":"假訊息管理委員會對我看你說想要成立一個假訊息管理委員會這個應該是這樣就我想這個我們剛講就是說訊息的所謂真假一個當然是跟專業比如說衛福部就衛福部然後農業部農業部但是如果有些訊息的真假的話還是需要個Committee來審核那這個我們會來進行就不是一個人或是一個部會能夠決定應該是一個Committee"},{"start":14276.38,"end":14282.062,"text":"好,那下次再問,因為時間有限。主席也站起來了。好,謝謝李坤城委員發言完畢。現在請張祺凱委員發言。張祺凱委員發言完畢之後,我們休息30分鐘。不好意思。"},{"start":14315.816,"end":14320.001,"text":"沒有聲音喔來請議事人員處理請黃部長請保證"},{"start":14332.768,"end":14346.935,"text":"委員好我可以看你講到說要這個臉書的主管賣的主管說要去喝咖啡 喝咖啡好事啦可是用那個字眼說威脅好像重了一點"},{"start":14349.417,"end":14368.227,"text":"我們要修正一下 修正一下 修正一下 應該是說 你在故意讓人家看起來嗎 我看你不會講什麼重話 我就在民間待太久 我們修正一下就好了啦 其實老實講 從部長嘴巴講這個話是重的 而且是個跨國公司 我們把它修正一下啦 其實應該是說 我們應該是要勸導嘛 勸導 應該是說 力勸他們 行刑善誘啦 對不對"},{"start":14374.97,"end":14375.451,"text":"對台灣傷害是很大啦"},{"start":14385.213,"end":14409.82,"text":"我們台灣人是受害很嚴重,我們也很憤怒。所以外面循序善後勸導,而且我們也要讓人知道這個對台灣傷害很大。我們說很多人家破人亡,甚至是人命關聯的事情。所以跟他們勸導,可是也要讓他們知道台灣人非常在意這個事情。我們就修正完了,所以一個是勸導,我們沒有用威脅的啦。"},{"start":14410.341,"end":14417.758,"text":"還是說你這麼說他你威脅你這輩子講過最重的話是什麼我看你應該也很少講很重的話對不對很少很少這種人你說要威脅別人沒人要信啦說實在"},{"start":14420.971,"end":14448.987,"text":"就是我們欠打循行善誘可是也要讓他知道臺灣人受害很深請他們一定要善盡他們的社會責任好不好我們就把他修正完了這個就很清楚了來我來看我們臺灣有兩件事情在全世界明天現在不好就是那就是行人地獄嘛再來就是詐騙之島所以這件事情一定要處理沒問題我們大家看一下我統計了最近這10年所以是10年我們詐騙案件你看那個金額啊"},{"start":14450.214,"end":14467.265,"text":"103年到33年到今年112這個詐騙金額已經高達89億件數啊也從這個兩萬三千多件以下成長到去年已經是三萬七千件所以老實講這個成長速度特別是不斷去看有沒有有一百空高年開始"},{"start":14468.68,"end":14491.885,"text":"到112年那充電泡了喔所以這個明面很深明面很深齁那麼看下一張那最主要在什麼地方呢其實是臉書跟LINE嘛就是你在找臉書這兩個國際媒體很重要來我們看一下下一張大家都可以一起來看這一張齁保定你都看了陳文謙這個粉絲專頁看這名謝金河數字台灣的粉絲專頁一般民眾有辦法判別這個是詐騙嗎"},{"start":14504.59,"end":14517.483,"text":"你看旁邊有幾個贊助這贊助代表就是說我如果自己我如果自己要去登我幹嘛去贊助臉書做這個事情所以看到兩個贊助就要稍微懷疑那就是代表有人出錢"},{"start":14518.664,"end":14545.786,"text":"我自己名人我不用贊助人也要給我點嗎?所以我們有這個專業的部長在那,那全國民眾都聽到部長講就知道怎麼去辯別了你小陳文茜這個,欸歡迎大家加入文茜的純股社團,啊蔣阿民你跟謝金河,欸老實講這個詐騙真的也有做功課啊,他說新能源是未來最大趨勢喔,那這需要這家電池產業的還要私密跟我領取那現在聽部長講了,這個以後大家就注意一下好不好,來我們看下一張,跟著來"},{"start":14547.034,"end":14568.591,"text":"所以另外有一個方法啦大家知道藍勾勾嘛對不對藍勾勾我們提醒民眾如果有藍勾勾的這是一個真實的帳戶現在看麻煩的你現在在臉書上面齁有藍勾勾之外其他你都成文欠了啦什麼謝金了幾堆了啦一二十個你先把它下架完之後它就又上來喔所以這個打詐的速度還要再加快一點我們來看一下這個"},{"start":14570.985,"end":14586.068,"text":"你看這個是最近行事局公布的最常常被這個冒名的財經專家排行榜這個大家注意一下那我們看下一張下一張時間有限這個是很嚴重的每一天啊台灣人啊"},{"start":14587.955,"end":14597.543,"text":"每一天一百零六十六點八個人接到詐騙的這個可能是臉書或者信息這個問題是嚴重我們看下一張我剛看了我是覺得蠻好的就是部長上台有這個打詐通報查詢網"},{"start":14604.048,"end":14615.922,"text":"打炸3年這很好這我想簽名會鼓掌我們希望一定要講到要做到要落實好不好那我來跟你探討一個就是可能要強化的我們現在在那個臉書的詐騙店面齁我在問就是你們現在數位發展部跟臉書那邊溝通暢不暢通"},{"start":14623.09,"end":14632.959,"text":"還算暢通還算暢通我們上禮拜才跟他溝通更早我有跟他有喝咖啡後來上禮拜跟他做專業溝通我們把它很明確的話第一你要跟臉書或者是跟LINE很清楚說我要取得詐騙就是這個粉絲詐騙假冒這粉絲專頁那個詐騙的帳號跟他那個粉專的統計數據因為我們沒有會給嗎?"},{"start":14649.353,"end":14663.31,"text":"到目前為止有多少類似這種假冒的粉絲專頁這種有通帖收集嗎?你在上任之前有跟他們提過這個我希望他以後每個月給我個數字那我會再追這個數字"},{"start":14664.431,"end":14664.751,"text":"第二個我要問一下"},{"start":14683.698,"end":14702.34,"text":"現在那個詐騙的這個粉磚他會行刑到被檢舉這個平均時間大概多久?現在的平均時間你之前有這些統計嗎?就是這個詐騙這個粉磚一開始可以行刑到到被檢查這個多久的時間?那越等越慢對不對?報告委員我們現在還沒有統計但是我們這是"},{"start":14703.581,"end":14720.611,"text":"馬上要做的我們希望做這個統計我們就是希望把這個從他設立平台到通報然後再到檢舉然後再下架把所有這些時間盡量把它縮短我們就是要知道嘛如果就是被騙的人就越多啦那你一樣一個禮拜內把這個給我好不好另外第三個資料是"},{"start":14721.874,"end":14722.775,"text":"數位發展部的網站上面公開好不好"},{"start":14739.745,"end":14750.61,"text":"我們想在一起,我們觀念是一致的,我覺得我們觀念想到一起去了,你們這個打炸通報查詢網請,也放在上面這打炸通報查詢網出來,裡面就是當時來補,我們當時上過臉書,臉書梳理多久,所以這個資料大家都查詢得到,我們也會把它做在連結到我們書法部的網站,這過去比較久久了"},{"start":14761.476,"end":14761.876,"text":"我們現在休息1點15分繼續開會"},{"start":14792.449,"end":14792.469,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":14835.179,"end":14852.193,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14859.735,"end":14865.749,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17043.51,"end":17064.334,"text":"好,我們繼續開會也先向楊瓊英委員感謝現在請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席,楊瓊英發言首先邀請部長請部長委員好"},{"start":17071.894,"end":17089.019,"text":"部長好部長你來自產業而且實際操作過而且也知道產業界的新生所以我們很歡喜是一個專業而且務實的這個部長這是我首先給你的註解所以我希望以你的專業協助政府"},{"start":17089.739,"end":17111.206,"text":"指揮我們的部到底要怎麼做所以首先我要請問你上任之後公部門的各自外卸要怎麼樣防堵那你在上任之前我們第一任的數位部長是唐鳳那麼你覺得你跟唐鳳先生最重要的你這個部長的職務最重要的不同點在哪裡"},{"start":17112.373,"end":17125.397,"text":"報告委員那個我在媒體上講過三支箭那是針對現在政府最需要的工作來做馬上的處理那關於治安這一部分是這樣治安是我覺得第一個單是我們會一個是法規我們會"},{"start":17129.218,"end":17129.238,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":17148.146,"end":17175.778,"text":"需要再加強所以這個我們會加強那當然這裡面有包括就是說我們的一些措施比如說我們有什麼就說就連信任架構這一定要推這個政府雖然在講可是我覺得這個要強化推動如果我們能夠推動連信任架構能夠剛剛講就是用法規讓我們資安署能夠做更擴大的集合跟資安的演練會讓我們資安做得更好"},{"start":17176.218,"end":17204.417,"text":"那將要各自被外洩的這個管道就會下降很多你這麼回答也就是本席剛剛給你提問的您這任部長跟第一任的部長最大的不同點可以解讀是剛剛你所說的這幾項嗎?也就是以往沒有做到而且我們看到了這個問題必須要去做對也不能說以往沒做到就是說以往有這樣的一個目標但是我這邊會深入再去推動"},{"start":17205.057,"end":17233.249,"text":"希望有這個目標但是就是沒做到所以你現在堅韌下來要努力做可以這麼解讀嗎?所以本席要告訴你從2016年開始我們看到包括中華郵政商城勞動部發展署權序部戶政資料這個非常的嚴重建保署華航會員資料庫都有各自外洩的這個問題"},{"start":17234.449,"end":17249.198,"text":"一直到這兩年當然我相信你在業界媒體你都看到這個報道你點頭了但是案碗上面有人在多收千多萬筆的全國人民的戶政資料而且經過大局確認"},{"start":17250.503,"end":17252.624,"text":"第二項本席要請教你媒體溢價法"},{"start":17277.385,"end":17288.082,"text":"這個是大家都說都務必必要的都是必要的那但是必要呢那研議了三年多第一任的部長也說必要研議了三年多但都沒看到"},{"start":17289.096,"end":17313.151,"text":"你上任了部長,你認為這必不必要?報告委員,我剛上任,但我對這問題還是蠻關心,因為牽涉到所謂copyright的問題,版權,那同意,但是現在就是說有稍微有點複雜,就是因為現在生成是AI,AI出來以後,這個問題又變得複雜,就是說AI的訓練模型,它一樣有同樣的問題,所以就是說我們要一起處理。"},{"start":17313.931,"end":17331.804,"text":"那怎麼處理呢?現在就是還要產生一個共識。但現在有的做凍結權的問題是不是可以用這種方法來處理?或者是要立專法?我覺得這個還在討論中。那我希望很快的能夠有個共識。您說的很快要多久?在第一任的部長3年多告訴我們是必要的。"},{"start":17332.665,"end":17352.041,"text":"那因為呢新聞有價的概念我想大家都都都都贊同的那至於方式以及新加入的AI系統這樣子的一個科技出來那部長你是專家你認為你多久時間可以去研議諸方案出來不管所謂的專法還是任何的方式這個就是我們已經開了8、9次會議好像在對這個你遇過大概多久時間那我想再請署長再"},{"start":17358.146,"end":17361.068,"text":"告訴我們大概多久時間,可以告訴我們你的方法、草案．請告訴我時間,因為時間的關係"},{"start":17376.875,"end":17401.245,"text":"請告訴我,你大約多久時間?這研議來報告,普通來我們就自己報告,去行政院因為這幫去報名,這行政院要統籌各方的意見那你們自己預定的KPI的時間點在哪裡?因為這個要凝聚大家的共識,因為現在就公開就分析過程我們宣布,你自己你要研議一個方案已經三年多,你總是有一個你希望的KPI的時間點嘛"},{"start":17404.147,"end":17429.675,"text":"因為過去都是行政院開會所現在也是一樣你大概要多久?因為你延續性的嘛委員報告我如果幕僚準備各種方案其實之前大概上個月在前面的內閣的部分也到行政院去討論過但是沒做這個政策的決定所以現在新內閣只有一百年所以給我們一些時間然後這個都要跨部會去討論部長你待會主席來部長"},{"start":17432.316,"end":17451.705,"text":"本席還是希望你去盤點好不好因為你已經第一任三年多告訴我們很重要但是沒有答案我們希望你去盤點辛苦加油好不好最後一個議題我給你因為大家都知道這個點面線的打造成效到底是多少因為越打越炸"},{"start":17456.551,"end":17477.872,"text":"現在你說我看到你受訪你說你要成立一個打詐通報查詢網是不是對這是你要成立的嗎已經在準備中對準備中齁我們看到很高興因為現在所有的國家隊打架隊打詐司法什麼的越多方案出來面對的問題越多"},{"start":17479.833,"end":17494.865,"text":"所以我們有看到你說打詐通報查詢網這個idea不錯你現在準備中大概多久這個我請林市長在負責這個查詢網請他說明你一國來你一國大概多久可以告訴社會大眾"},{"start":17496.613,"end":17516.613,"text":"議員．"},{"start":17517.214,"end":17534.012,"text":"對 有了一個開頭就很好所以一個結論就是說那個行政院已經通過打詐專訪那在整個執行過程當中民眾要怎麼樣能夠安心這非常重要所以3個月內你們第一批的這個打詐通報查詢網會上線"},{"start":17537.355,"end":17549.505,"text":"到時候出來的時候我們也希望好好的宣傳讓民眾可以運用得到好不好好謝謝楊瓊英委員現在請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":17574.882,"end":17575.87,"text":"數位發展部部長"},{"start":17583.926,"end":17604.559,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天早上你說在法律工具還沒有完善之前那我們大概是只能請這些社群平台業者來去道德勸說那我在這邊也是呼籲我們所有包含這個在野黨跟其他的這些朋友在許多議題上面我們有分歧但是在打詐的部分"},{"start":17605.419,"end":17626.314,"text":"這個是全民共識所以我希望現在行政院的草案已經一讀那我們可以好好做下來及時管預把這些廣泛討論把哪一些法條你覺得未爭之處我們把它尋求共識完整的及時管預一起來守護民眾的權益因為其實現在如果在沒有法律的基礎之下那強硬的叫部長做些什麼"},{"start":17627.295,"end":17628.016,"text":"對於TikTok的管理"},{"start":17651.937,"end":17666.708,"text":"我們是預計先透過打造專法讓他能夠落地設立代理人才有辦法去納管嘛不然的話我們無法去能夠在非我們的這個國境內去處理嘛我想請問一下部長對TikTok的落地納管的時程可不可以先跟國人報告一下"},{"start":17667.428,"end":17690.767,"text":"一旦我們的打詐算法通過之後我們就馬上要求剛剛這些平台業者落地那落地如果他不落地那我就是對TikTok我們特別處理就是我們我剛剛在前面解釋過我們如果他不落地我們原則上不會用這個所謂這個比如說中國版的TikTok我們會看美國這邊美國也因為要求他落地"},{"start":17690.947,"end":17692.208,"text":"對﹐就是說希望美國黨這邊至少他們在這方面至少假新聞這些問題會比較少"},{"start":17719.281,"end":17736.803,"text":"對那字節跳動已經上訴這一個美國聯邦政府到底未來有沒有辦法出售或者是禁用底論上現在還是未知但是傾向可能是會被禁用跟出售的可能性還是相對高啦所以在這段空窗期間剛才部長講的就是你所謂的配套措施嗎"},{"start":17738.245,"end":17766.579,"text":"你說那個在美國的時候在美國這個現在是這樣子啊現在說TikTok在目前的情況我們當然就是說如果我們剛講說有個打詐通報查詢網嘛這段時間如果有在TikTok看到這些訊息就是說錯誤訊息不管是對兒少有影響或是一些這個對健康有影響或是這個我們會很快把它到傳給各部位去做判別如果真的是假訊息我們就會要求他再從山裡面下架"},{"start":17768.759,"end":17788.845,"text":"謝謝部長你剛剛講到這個跟兒少相關然後還會競速的來傳遞給各個不同的部門那我們當然是肯定這是很重要的因為其實除了治安餘力之外還有這個兒少方面相關的他們之前那些想昏迷挑戰18個月就導致大概20名15歲以下的兒童死亡所以這些都是現實發生的事情"},{"start":17789.645,"end":17804.592,"text":"那當然就是剛才我們提到的這些資安餘力的部分那已經有多達11個前TikTok的員工證實他們是會每隔14天就把資料傳向北京的總部所以這些是已經現實存在的問題那我希望說"},{"start":17805.712,"end":17827.101,"text":"緊快我們把這個詐欺犯罪無害防制條例希望能夠跟不管是在野陣營的各個國會議員我們趕快討論完趕快通過之後將由法院依據我們才能夠緊速的來去處理這些問題再來我要請教這個部長紅色供應鏈的部分那今年3月賴總統來到我們嘉義參觀無人機國家隊的時候那有媒體是在報導"},{"start":17829.712,"end":17844.462,"text":"這個有一個螺旋獎的碼頭上有made in China的字樣那這個媒體還有在野黨的立委都有非常深刻的這樣子的批判雖然說這個已經是一個多月前的事情但是我還是想要質詢一下確認我們國家的資安政策針對報導"},{"start":17846.763,"end":17870.216,"text":"政府禁紅利的規定台灣無人機的這個部分到底哪些是可行哪些是不可以哪些是可以用這些包含其他國家的哪些是我們有限定一定要就是以這個新單上面來講一定要用台灣本土製造的或者是比方說跟我們最友善的國家製造的這個部分可不可以請這個部長簡單或者是請相關的這個部會這個已經有在處理是不是很簡單的報告一下好謝謝"},{"start":17874.143,"end":17892.021,"text":"謝謝委員無人機部的部分我們要先跟講要講清楚就是說我們數位部呢包括我們的電競技術中心他基本上是協助交通部對無人機管理上就資安的檢測部分所以剛剛委員您的那個要詢問的部分可能"},{"start":17892.862,"end":17909.144,"text":"要問交通部這一塊會不會比較清楚因為數位發展部去年3月有推動成立無人機資安聯合檢測實驗室數位發展部就是以檢測為主我們協助交通部對所以說也是有在做這樣的事項我們已經檢測很多款了而且我們沒有拿到你們的資料但是我是說"},{"start":17909.645,"end":17931.432,"text":"媒體他們去問資安院,資安院說沒有沒有這個無人機資安檢測那我意思是說部門內部數位部裡面彼此之間要大概知道一下我們有做哪些事情這樣子報告來講說不會說我們完全沒有做然後報告就會不斷的衍生然後可能會在因此而打擊政府的威信說啊這個數位部什麼都沒做但其實是有做的嘛"},{"start":17931.872,"end":17947.531,"text":"因為你們的檢測實驗室已經協助13家無人機廠商22種機型通過產品驗證所以你們有做有做就要講出來做得好要講出來並且要有一個完善的一個好的界面讓人家知道說這是可以我們有在檢測我們有做出這些成績來好不好好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":17950.194,"end":17964.755,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員發言完畢現在請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員現在請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在現在請吳春成委員吳春成委員"},{"start":17967.139,"end":17979.77,"text":"吳春辰委員不在現在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在現在請陳培宇委員發言謝謝主席那有請書發部部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":17993.697,"end":18023.097,"text":"好部長我的時間有限我就快速跟您請教並且想要拜託數發部積極關注這個議題就是關於兒少在數位環境當中所面臨的困境跟風險在安慰的報告裡面提到兩個很重要的事情而且也是很多時候會發生相關嚴重的新聞社會事件就是傳送性相關的訊息給莫名的網友或是不認識的人在網路上傳送自己的性相關訊息或者是在網路上做網路霸凌我們來看相關的數字下一頁"},{"start":18023.997,"end":18051.113,"text":"在相關的研究當中呢從111年的數據他們說如果有自己傳送性相關訊息經驗的小孩有2.5%可是到了112年增加到4.6%可是我們都認為這個數字可能還是低估了就目前而上在數位環境中的困境是第一個性相關訊息的傳送經驗第二個是關於網路霸凌加害的經驗大幅的增加111年是0.56到了112年增加到百分之"},{"start":18051.633,"end":18073.912,"text":"八點八也就是說在數位環境當中而少最容易面對困難就是我剛剛說的那兩個傳送性相關的經驗跟網路霸凌好往下那我們看到你們在你們的業務報告裡面說你們即將針對特殊族群進行數位使用情形分析例如身心障礙者還有網路沉迷但是我這裡沒有看到對於青少年或是兒少的關懷"},{"start":18074.733,"end":18085.939,"text":"不知道這個部分是不是可以加入你們相關的研究計畫當中?這個我們可以再可以加入問題這個我想做這個這方面研究是不是那個對我想這個應該是那個"},{"start":18088.728,"end":18115.098,"text":"應該是說只要您願意做應該加入相關的研究並不困難事實上我們之前在國科會我們也拜託國科會啟動相關研究確實在相關的學者會議上有很多的學者就說我們確實對青少年的數位時代跟數位時代青少年跟使用環境是不熟悉的那你們既然數發部要開啟相關研究我認為你們要加入對於兒童跟青少年對於數位環境使用經驗的相關分析"},{"start":18116.158,"end":18143.546,"text":"這個我們應該可以做對好可以做嗎確定齁可以好謝謝那我們就記下來了我們辦公室也會持續追蹤好下一題那另外你們有一個數位政府司喔就是要協助跨部會進行很多相關業務的整合那我們要先說明一下我們要感謝教育部跟文化部在去年修訂了相關黃牛票專區我們發現在運動產業類有檢舉黃牛票專區在教育部可是文化部呢有演唱會之類的票可是呢他基本上是兩個"},{"start":18144.426,"end":18163.723,"text":"好這是第一個問題好來下一個如果我們有發現大人對當兒少不利的很多事情在衛福部有所謂違反兒少法的公告這是單獨一個網站另外在幼教法的部分關於幼教老師對於兒少相關不當的對待在另外一個網站可是這兩個網站我剛剛說不管是兒少或是黃牛票"},{"start":18164.684,"end":18184.7,"text":"一般消費者或是對一般家長公民來說我要去理解你跨部會這些資訊我怎麼知道我要去哪裡查我們可不可以做到辨明這件事情一件事網站查詢資訊整合不知道你們可不可以協助相關部會做跨部會的整合需求先進行相關評估會議在三個月內可以嗎"},{"start":18185.516,"end":18204.806,"text":"市長這個應該可以吧跟委員報告這個沒有問題我們會找相關的部會來討論好那我再跟您確定一下喔市長這是那個數位政府市的市長一個是衛福部跟教育部在兒少相關資料的網頁好下一個上一個是指教育部跟文化部的黃牛票專區喔因為這確實都需要你們協助他們做跨部會的整合好嗎"},{"start":18205.666,"end":18224.756,"text":"好,沒有問題,那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤那也先謝謝,然後恭喜新的部長上任我相信在很多的議題上,國人對你有非常多期待跟關注跟想像,謝謝好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝好,謝謝陳培宇委員,方揚王斌現在請謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在"},{"start":18226.479,"end":18248.694,"text":"登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢．作以下決定．報告及詢討完畢．委員羅志強所提書面諮詢．列入紀錄並刊登公報．委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分．請數位部盡速以書面答覆現在審查數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案．請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":18252.462,"end":18275.801,"text":"討論思想審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案以下數位發展部含簡訊一、通案決議三、行政部門關鍵民生系統經濟雲端備份及回顧計劃專案報告案二、該部決議一、業務費向下委辦費預算凍結四分之一書面報告案"},{"start":18276.341,"end":18291.088,"text":"三、該部決議二、一般行政預算凍結兩千萬元書面報告案四、該部決議三、建立全民數位韌性連結民主網路預算凍結十分之一書面報告案五、該部決議四、創新數位跨域"},{"start":18291.928,"end":18317.254,"text":"協作訂定智慧應用基礎預算凍結十分之一書面報告案六該部決議五一百一十二年出國成效期一百一三年預期效益專案報告案七該部決議二十八一般行政預算凍結百分之三書面報告案八該部決議二十九網路政策發展規劃預算凍結十分之一書面報告案九資通安全署決議一資通安全業務"},{"start":18318.334,"end":18329.661,"text":"預算凍結兩千萬元數位報告案十之通安全署決議十一之通安全業務預算凍結一千萬元數位報告案十一數位產業署決議一促進數位創新動能轉型升級預算凍結十分之一數面報告案宣讀完畢以上十一案請問各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見第一案及第六案"},{"start":18345.987,"end":18369.127,"text":"準予備查提報院會．其餘9案均同意動之提報院會。針對本次會議作以下決議．討論事項所列113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案第一案及第6案準予備查提報院會．其餘9案均同意動之提報院會。"},{"start":18370.519,"end":18374.448,"text":"本日議程處理完畢現在休息5月29日星期三三午9點繼續開會"}]}},{"id":"15950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15950","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db4197e6bbfb965dc70f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be478a812b2fbddd6865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。(處理)\n【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-27","start_time":"2024-05-27T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:57:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":8774,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 - 10:57:00","影片長度":"02:26:14","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1799.8509687500002,"end":1800.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1801.4034687500002,"end":1801.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1802.2472187500002,"end":1803.4790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1803.9347187500002,"end":1805.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1806.93846875,"end":1807.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1808.22096875,"end":1810.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1811.2078437500002,"end":1814.7684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1814.97096875,"end":1815.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1816.50659375,"end":1816.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1816.5234687500001,"end":1827.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1828.1165937500002,"end":1834.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1831.5928437500002,"end":1831.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1835.2378437500001,"end":1838.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1838.6297187500002,"end":1857.8165937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1858.00221875,"end":1866.7940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1867.68846875,"end":1873.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1873.5272187500002,"end":1883.2134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1883.4665937500001,"end":1888.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1888.2590937500001,"end":1898.2828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1898.48534375,"end":1899.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1899.9703437500002,"end":1906.0453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1906.3490937500003,"end":1912.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1912.7784687500002,"end":1927.7972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1928.9447187500002,"end":1935.8634687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1940.53784375,"end":1943.5584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1944.2503437500002,"end":1944.7397187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1945.6509687500002,"end":1950.8653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1952.3334687500003,"end":1980.5822187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1982.1347187500003,"end":1982.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1982.9615937500002,"end":1998.3178437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1999.5497187500002,"end":2001.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2002.1990937500002,"end":2004.0722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2004.1903437500002,"end":2005.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2005.1522187500002,"end":2006.3165937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2006.8228437500002,"end":2017.5890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2018.3822187500002,"end":2022.7190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2022.95534375,"end":2025.5540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2025.90846875,"end":2028.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2029.2497187500003,"end":2035.8478437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2036.03346875,"end":2037.8222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2038.0415937500002,"end":2045.0784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2045.1797187500001,"end":2047.3228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2047.3903437500003,"end":2049.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2049.7022187500006,"end":2055.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2055.5915937500004,"end":2058.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2059.2872187499997,"end":2061.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2061.6328437500006,"end":2063.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2063.6240937500006,"end":2066.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2066.71221875,"end":2068.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2068.3659687500003,"end":2071.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2071.5215937499997,"end":2074.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2074.62659375,"end":2074.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2075.1834687500004,"end":2076.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2076.7528437500005,"end":2077.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2077.98471875,"end":2080.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2081.0897187500004,"end":2083.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2083.3847187500005,"end":2086.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2086.60784375,"end":2087.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2088.66659375,"end":2089.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2089.6453437500004,"end":2091.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2091.9403437500005,"end":2095.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2095.83846875,"end":2105.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2105.8622187500005,"end":2109.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2110.11471875,"end":2113.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2113.9453437500006,"end":2116.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2116.4765937500006,"end":2118.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2119.07534375,"end":2120.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2120.52659375,"end":2121.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2122.34909375,"end":2124.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2124.3740937500006,"end":2126.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2127.47909375,"end":2129.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2129.8584687500006,"end":2132.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2132.8115937500006,"end":2135.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2135.91659375,"end":2137.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2138.00909375,"end":2139.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2140.16909375,"end":2141.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2141.33346875,"end":2143.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2143.8984687500006,"end":2144.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2144.8603437500005,"end":2148.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2149.09596875,"end":2151.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2151.2897187500002,"end":2156.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2157.43221875,"end":2158.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2159.3222187500005,"end":2161.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2162.2247187500006,"end":2164.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2164.46909375,"end":2167.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2167.42221875,"end":2169.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2169.2615937500004,"end":2170.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2170.62846875,"end":2172.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2173.27784375,"end":2176.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2176.3153437500005,"end":2179.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2180.2303437500004,"end":2182.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2182.5084687500002,"end":2184.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2185.0397187500002,"end":2185.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2186.28846875,"end":2187.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2187.97596875,"end":2195.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2196.34596875,"end":2206.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2206.30221875,"end":2208.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2209.01909375,"end":2210.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2211.2128437500005,"end":2212.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2212.6640937500006,"end":2215.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2216.1403437500003,"end":2228.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2228.30721875,"end":2229.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2229.85971875,"end":2232.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2232.50909375,"end":2235.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2235.34409375,"end":2237.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2238.60096875,"end":2240.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2240.7272187500002,"end":2242.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2242.63409375,"end":2252.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2252.94471875,"end":2255.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2255.9315937500005,"end":2257.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2257.83846875,"end":2264.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2264.70659375,"end":2266.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2266.86659375,"end":2271.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2271.9459687500002,"end":2274.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2274.51096875,"end":2277.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2277.66659375,"end":2278.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2279.0165937500005,"end":2281.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2282.1384687500004,"end":2285.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2286.9140937500006,"end":2287.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2287.5553437500002,"end":2288.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2288.68596875,"end":2291.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2292.0272187500004,"end":2293.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2294.05221875,"end":2306.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2307.2822187500005,"end":2308.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2308.76721875,"end":2311.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2314.8759687500005,"end":2315.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2316.15846875,"end":2318.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2318.6559687500003,"end":2320.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2320.9509687500004,"end":2325.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2326.6884687500005,"end":2327.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2327.90346875,"end":2331.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2331.6834687500004,"end":2334.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2335.5984687500004,"end":2338.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2339.12534375,"end":2339.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2341.3359687500006,"end":2342.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2342.51721875,"end":2344.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2346.22971875,"end":2350.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2350.7859687500004,"end":2351.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2352.4228437500005,"end":2355.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2355.57846875,"end":2362.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2366.8340937500006,"end":2367.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2372.5378437500003,"end":2375.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2376.55409375,"end":2376.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2380.1990937500004,"end":2380.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2385.22784375,"end":2385.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2393.3447187500005,"end":2395.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2395.9940937500005,"end":2396.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2397.0740937500004,"end":2406.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2406.69284375,"end":2408.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2409.32534375,"end":2410.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2410.97909375,"end":2413.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2414.52284375,"end":2415.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2416.5309687500003,"end":2417.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2419.72034375,"end":2420.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2422.6397187500006,"end":2423.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2422.6903437500005,"end":2424.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2424.17534375,"end":2436.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2436.3084687500004,"end":2440.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2442.83909375,"end":2443.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2445.2859687500004,"end":2445.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2445.97784375,"end":2446.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2446.02846875,"end":2446.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2446.9059687500003,"end":2449.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2449.5553437500002,"end":2451.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2452.7109687500006,"end":2453.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2453.5378437500003,"end":2454.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2454.5840937500006,"end":2455.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2455.0397187500002,"end":2458.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2458.68471875,"end":2459.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2460.15284375,"end":2461.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2464.05096875,"end":2465.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2464.59096875,"end":2465.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2465.1647187500002,"end":2465.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2465.51909375,"end":2466.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2466.95346875,"end":2471.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2472.01596875,"end":2473.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2474.36159375,"end":2476.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2476.6903437500005,"end":2477.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2477.6015937500006,"end":2479.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2479.4072187500005,"end":2481.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2482.1240937500006,"end":2486.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2486.8153437500005,"end":2492.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2493.7509687500005,"end":2496.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2497.4128437500003,"end":2499.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2500.34909375,"end":2505.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2506.1034687500005,"end":2507.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2507.75721875,"end":2511.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2512.8534687500005,"end":2513.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2513.41034375,"end":2529.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2529.6778437500006,"end":2531.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2532.10784375,"end":2533.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2533.18784375,"end":2536.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2536.4109687500004,"end":2541.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2537.99721875,"end":2538.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2541.37221875,"end":2543.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2543.80221875,"end":2544.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2545.23659375,"end":2549.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2549.7422187500006,"end":2552.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2553.06659375,"end":2555.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2555.98596875,"end":2557.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2557.5047187500004,"end":2564.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2565.68909375,"end":2580.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2581.41659375,"end":2582.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2582.42909375,"end":2584.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2586.29346875,"end":2586.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2586.36096875,"end":2586.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2586.4284687500003,"end":2589.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2587.49159375,"end":2587.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2587.5928437500006,"end":2587.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2589.41534375,"end":2589.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2590.5459687500006,"end":2616.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2616.71909375,"end":2637.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2637.4247187500005,"end":2662.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2664.40784375,"end":2673.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2670.85409375,"end":2671.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2672.42346875,"end":2672.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2673.01409375,"end":2731.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2732.0597187500007,"end":2844.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2845.56096875,"end":2858.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2858.3522187500002,"end":2861.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2863.98846875,"end":2864.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2864.37659375,"end":2864.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2864.42721875,"end":2864.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2865.4734687500004,"end":2865.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2865.4903437500006,"end":2875.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2876.96534375,"end":2879.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2879.73284375,"end":2882.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2882.0447187500004,"end":2885.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2885.5378437500003,"end":2888.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2889.4528437500003,"end":2891.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2892.13596875,"end":2895.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2895.9159687500005,"end":2896.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2897.2997187500005,"end":2900.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2900.7928437500004,"end":2903.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2903.29034375,"end":2907.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2908.06596875,"end":2911.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2911.55909375,"end":2912.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2912.3015937500004,"end":2913.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2913.7528437500005,"end":2914.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2915.71034375,"end":2917.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2918.17409375,"end":2920.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2921.0428437500004,"end":2921.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2922.3253437500007,"end":2924.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2925.24471875,"end":2926.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2926.2234687500004,"end":2929.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2929.93596875,"end":2931.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2932.1972187500005,"end":2933.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2934.2897187500002,"end":2935.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2936.0615937500006,"end":2937.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2937.05721875,"end":2937.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2938.25534375,"end":2939.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2939.9090937500005,"end":2942.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2942.3053437500002,"end":2943.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2943.9422187500004,"end":2944.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2945.05596875,"end":2946.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2946.50721875,"end":2952.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2953.74659375,"end":2956.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2954.4890937500004,"end":2954.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2956.68284375,"end":2959.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2959.6190937500005,"end":2961.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2961.8972187500003,"end":2965.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2966.3015937500004,"end":2968.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2969.82846875,"end":2971.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2972.59596875,"end":2975.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2975.97096875,"end":2976.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2976.9834687500006,"end":2979.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2980.39221875,"end":2980.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2981.3034687500003,"end":2982.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2982.83909375,"end":2985.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2986.41659375,"end":2987.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2987.47971875,"end":2988.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2988.9647187500004,"end":2989.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2990.31471875,"end":2991.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2991.5465937500003,"end":2993.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2994.0272187500004,"end":2996.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2997.68909375,"end":3001.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3001.77284375,"end":3005.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3005.09721875,"end":3005.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3006.7340937500003,"end":3007.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3006.9197187500004,"end":3008.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3007.93221875,"end":3008.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3008.77596875,"end":3008.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3009.2315937500007,"end":3009.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3009.92346875,"end":3009.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3009.97409375,"end":3010.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3010.02471875,"end":3011.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3010.0584687500004,"end":3010.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3010.5309687500003,"end":3010.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3011.05409375,"end":3011.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3011.12159375,"end":3011.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3011.30721875,"end":3011.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3011.8640937500004,"end":3011.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3011.96534375,"end":3011.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3012.85971875,"end":3018.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3018.9684687500003,"end":3019.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3019.0359687500004,"end":3019.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3019.5253437500005,"end":3019.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3019.54221875,"end":3019.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3019.9472187500005,"end":3019.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3019.96409375,"end":3020.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3020.03159375,"end":3020.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3020.3015937500004,"end":3020.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3020.4365937500006,"end":3020.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3020.50409375,"end":3020.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3020.5378437500003,"end":3020.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3020.9765937500006,"end":3021.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3021.0440937500007,"end":3036.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3036.90659375,"end":3058.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3056.86971875,"end":3058.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3058.48971875,"end":3061.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3058.5065937500003,"end":3058.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3063.0290937500004,"end":3063.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3064.09221875,"end":3064.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3067.3659687500003,"end":3068.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3068.96909375,"end":3069.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3070.90971875,"end":3071.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3072.15846875,"end":3073.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3073.42409375,"end":3074.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3075.90471875,"end":3077.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3077.5584687500004,"end":3079.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3079.8028437500006,"end":3081.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3080.19096875,"end":3080.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3081.8447187500005,"end":3086.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3086.14784375,"end":3086.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3086.62034375,"end":3086.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3086.70471875,"end":3086.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3086.8397187500004,"end":3086.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3087.3122187500003,"end":3089.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3087.34596875,"end":3087.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3089.9278437500006,"end":3095.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3094.75409375,"end":3094.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3095.00721875,"end":3097.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3097.89284375,"end":3098.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3098.75346875,"end":3099.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3099.8672187500006,"end":3101.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3100.5928437500006,"end":3101.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3101.9765937500006,"end":3103.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3103.4784687500005,"end":3103.6640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3103.56284375,"end":3105.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3105.73971875,"end":3106.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3107.8828437500006,"end":3108.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3108.87846875,"end":3111.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3112.1522187500004,"end":3113.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3114.12659375,"end":3118.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3116.82659375,"end":3117.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3118.04159375,"end":3119.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3119.3240937500004,"end":3120.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3120.37034375,"end":3121.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3121.3828437500006,"end":3121.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3121.39971875,"end":3121.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3123.7115937500002,"end":3129.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3131.3222187500005,"end":3134.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3132.6553437500006,"end":3136.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3137.4140937500006,"end":3139.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3140.1140937500004,"end":3141.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3143.1347187500005,"end":3143.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3144.6872187500003,"end":3159.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3159.9422187500004,"end":3163.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3163.60409375,"end":3168.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3164.0597187500007,"end":3164.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3168.3122187500003,"end":3168.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3168.36284375,"end":3168.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3168.8522187500002,"end":3172.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3168.90284375,"end":3169.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3170.15159375,"end":3170.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3172.26096875,"end":3178.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3179.0447187500004,"end":3180.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3181.30596875,"end":3183.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3184.14096875,"end":3197.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3191.7178437500006,"end":3192.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3192.03846875,"end":3192.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3192.2578437500006,"end":3192.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3197.94471875,"end":3202.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3203.2772187500004,"end":3205.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3205.0322187500005,"end":3205.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3205.65659375,"end":3206.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3206.02784375,"end":3263.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3206.2978437500005,"end":3206.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3207.05721875,"end":3207.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3216.4059687500003,"end":3217.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3252.85596875,"end":3253.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3253.4972187500007,"end":3253.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3253.5478437500005,"end":3253.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3253.56471875,"end":3253.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3253.9697187500005,"end":3254.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3255.2859687500004,"end":3256.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3264.41534375,"end":3264.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3264.97221875,"end":3271.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3271.3847187500005,"end":3273.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3275.1309687500006,"end":3276.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3276.3965937500006,"end":3277.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3278.2022187500006,"end":3281.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3282.0497187500005,"end":3284.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3283.6865937500006,"end":3284.5978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3284.9522187500006,"end":3287.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3287.02784375,"end":3350.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3297.62534375,"end":3297.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3297.9628437500005,"end":3298.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3299.5828437500004,"end":3299.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3301.01721875,"end":3301.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3301.0340937500005,"end":3301.4728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3350.8828437500006,"end":3376.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3377.1403437500003,"end":3386.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3385.0378437500003,"end":3388.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3387.9403437500005,"end":3392.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3392.7497187500003,"end":3394.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3399.1622187500006,"end":3401.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3401.94659375,"end":3402.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3406.9753437500003,"end":3408.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3408.88221875,"end":3418.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3419.2940937500007,"end":3419.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3420.74534375,"end":3424.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3424.0359687500004,"end":3430.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3425.8584687500006,"end":3426.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3430.81971875,"end":3444.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3434.61659375,"end":3434.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3444.4040937500004,"end":3445.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3445.9228437500005,"end":3448.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3449.5847187500003,"end":3451.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3452.3184687500006,"end":3452.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3452.33534375,"end":3459.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3457.27971875,"end":3459.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3459.1865937500006,"end":3459.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3459.55784375,"end":3459.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3459.57471875,"end":3460.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3460.48596875,"end":3460.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3460.5028437500005,"end":3466.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3466.2740937500002,"end":3469.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3469.2272187500002,"end":3471.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3471.79221875,"end":3472.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3473.1759687500007,"end":3488.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3488.66721875,"end":3490.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3490.43909375,"end":3490.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3490.6247187500003,"end":3502.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3491.8903437500003,"end":3492.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3503.0615937500006,"end":3505.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3506.3015937500004,"end":3517.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3517.2197187500005,"end":3519.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3520.3415937500004,"end":3524.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3524.6784687500003,"end":3525.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3525.7753437500005,"end":3526.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3527.8678437500002,"end":3528.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3528.9647187500004,"end":3529.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3530.56784375,"end":3530.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3530.5847187500003,"end":3535.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3535.7822187500005,"end":3540.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3541.0809687500005,"end":3545.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3545.3165937500007,"end":3546.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3547.2403437500006,"end":3549.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3550.58159375,"end":3554.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3555.2390937500004,"end":3557.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3557.02784375,"end":3559.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3559.91346875,"end":3563.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3564.6553437500006,"end":3581.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3581.49659375,"end":3582.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3582.9140937500006,"end":3588.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3589.1747187500005,"end":3606.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3606.99471875,"end":3615.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3615.71909375,"end":3637.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3638.9559687500005,"end":3640.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3640.96409375,"end":3641.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3644.4403437500005,"end":3646.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3646.9040937500004,"end":3651.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3652.43909375,"end":3653.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3654.3797187500004,"end":3657.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3657.5859687500006,"end":3658.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3658.75034375,"end":3662.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3662.5978437500007,"end":3666.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3666.9347187500007,"end":3668.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3668.80784375,"end":3672.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3672.60471875,"end":3675.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3675.5240937500002,"end":3677.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3678.10596875,"end":3680.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3681.1434687500005,"end":3683.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3684.48471875,"end":3685.3790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3686.3409687500007,"end":3688.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3688.83846875,"end":3694.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3694.84596875,"end":3696.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3696.53346875,"end":3696.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3697.4784687500005,"end":3698.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3699.1490937500002,"end":3699.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3700.6003437500003,"end":3703.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3703.6884687500005,"end":3704.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3705.15659375,"end":3710.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3711.55221875,"end":3713.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3713.84721875,"end":3716.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3717.2559687500006,"end":3718.5215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3718.9434687500006,"end":3721.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3722.14971875,"end":3725.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3725.8115937500006,"end":3729.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3729.69284375,"end":3730.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3730.7559687500006,"end":3731.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3731.97096875,"end":3734.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3735.29534375,"end":3737.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3738.4172187500008,"end":3738.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3739.1765937500004,"end":3740.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3741.57284375,"end":3742.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3743.1590937500005,"end":3745.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3746.5340937500005,"end":3747.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3748.5084687500002,"end":3750.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3750.66846875,"end":3751.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3751.5290937500004,"end":3752.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3752.9972187500007,"end":3753.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3753.97596875,"end":3759.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3759.5109687500008,"end":3760.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3761.21534375,"end":3765.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3765.72096875,"end":3769.2140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3769.8047187500006,"end":3773.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3773.07846875,"end":3773.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3773.21346875,"end":3776.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3777.06096875,"end":3780.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3782.84909375,"end":3785.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3786.17346875,"end":3786.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3787.7597187500005,"end":3788.1984687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3788.63721875,"end":3788.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3788.6709687500006,"end":3788.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3788.92409375,"end":3791.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3788.94096875,"end":3789.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3791.9784687500005,"end":3806.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3807.2334687500006,"end":3809.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3809.73096875,"end":3811.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3811.5534687500003,"end":3815.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3815.82284375,"end":3828.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3828.6647187500002,"end":3831.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3831.8034687500003,"end":3836.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3836.4609687500006,"end":3844.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3844.4765937500006,"end":3846.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3847.0078437500006,"end":3855.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3856.00221875,"end":3860.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3860.22096875,"end":3860.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3860.4909687500003,"end":3866.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3866.26221875,"end":3877.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3878.2940937500007,"end":3882.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3882.3272187500006,"end":3890.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3895.86096875,"end":3896.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3896.7722187500003,"end":3897.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3897.66659375,"end":3898.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3899.94471875,"end":3900.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3900.5859687500006,"end":3900.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3901.56471875,"end":3959.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3960.2390937500004,"end":3960.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3960.76221875,"end":3972.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3961.30221875,"end":3961.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3961.3359687500006,"end":3961.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3961.3865937500004,"end":3961.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3961.4034687500007,"end":3961.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3961.42034375,"end":3961.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3961.4540937500005,"end":3961.5890937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3961.5890937500008,"end":3961.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3961.6228437500004,"end":3961.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3973.5197187500007,"end":3984.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3975.5447187500004,"end":3977.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3984.92721875,"end":3985.2140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3985.6359687500008,"end":3996.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3997.09409375,"end":3997.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3998.4440937500003,"end":4004.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4004.80596875,"end":4007.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4008.2653437500003,"end":4008.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4008.92346875,"end":4009.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4010.00346875,"end":4019.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4019.4872187500005,"end":4020.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4020.95534375,"end":4024.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4024.9040937500004,"end":4027.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4028.0597187500007,"end":4030.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4030.60784375,"end":4034.9953437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4035.3834687500002,"end":4037.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4037.96534375,"end":4039.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4039.93971875,"end":4045.5422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4046.5040937500007,"end":4046.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4046.8584687500006,"end":4047.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4048.2928437500004,"end":4054.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4054.6209687500004,"end":4058.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4058.50221875,"end":4076.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4077.0309687500003,"end":4083.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4084.0847187500003,"end":4089.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4089.67034375,"end":4093.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4093.9228437500005,"end":4094.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4095.1715937500003,"end":4098.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4099.03596875,"end":4103.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4104.419093750001,"end":4104.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4104.975968750001,"end":4124.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4124.854718750001,"end":4133.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4133.477843750001,"end":4133.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4134.2372187500005,"end":4136.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4136.295968750001,"end":4137.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4137.561593750001,"end":4141.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4141.5947187500005,"end":4142.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4142.607218749999,"end":4157.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4148.614718750001,"end":4149.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4157.811593750001,"end":4161.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4161.794093750001,"end":4167.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4167.02534375,"end":4175.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4175.749718749999,"end":4181.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4182.128468749999,"end":4183.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4184.389718750001,"end":4221.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4221.95346875,"end":4240.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4240.347218749999,"end":4255.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4255.956593749999,"end":4257.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4257.39096875,"end":4258.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4258.99409375,"end":4261.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4262.200343750001,"end":4265.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4265.895968750001,"end":4269.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4269.507218750001,"end":4275.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4275.80159375,"end":4279.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4280.30721875,"end":4291.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4292.06909375,"end":4310.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4310.985968749999,"end":4315.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4315.93034375,"end":4333.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4334.22284375,"end":4337.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4338.272843750001,"end":4340.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4341.42846875,"end":4343.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4344.179093750001,"end":4344.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4345.1747187500005,"end":4357.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4357.89846875,"end":4375.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4376.54534375,"end":4394.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4394.60159375,"end":4425.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4426.022843750001,"end":4433.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4433.717843750001,"end":4438.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4438.89846875,"end":4443.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4443.72471875,"end":4446.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4450.37346875,"end":4452.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4453.19159375,"end":4457.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4458.05159375,"end":4459.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4460.245343750001,"end":4463.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4464.39659375,"end":4466.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4466.8603437500005,"end":4468.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4468.952843749999,"end":4470.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4470.77534375,"end":4474.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4475.2978437500005,"end":4477.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4477.93034375,"end":4480.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4480.579718749999,"end":4483.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4484.17409375,"end":4484.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4485.2372187500005,"end":4489.253468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4489.810343749999,"end":4494.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4495.1259687500005,"end":4496.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4497.43784375,"end":4502.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4503.276593750001,"end":4503.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4503.968468749999,"end":4507.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4507.444718750001,"end":4509.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4510.3134687500005,"end":4511.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4511.35971875,"end":4513.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4513.89096875,"end":4515.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4516.017218749999,"end":4519.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4519.358468750001,"end":4528.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4529.280968749999,"end":4531.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4531.87971875,"end":4533.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4534.03971875,"end":4534.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4535.339093750001,"end":4537.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4537.904093749999,"end":4540.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4541.093468749999,"end":4542.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4542.409718749999,"end":4546.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4546.965968750001,"end":4548.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4548.80534375,"end":4550.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4550.59409375,"end":4553.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4553.294093750001,"end":4557.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4557.512843750001,"end":4559.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4559.31846875,"end":4563.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4563.48659375,"end":4564.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4564.36409375,"end":4578.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4579.635968750001,"end":4580.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4581.0028437500005,"end":4588.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4588.47846875,"end":4591.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4591.75221875,"end":4597.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4597.92846875,"end":4609.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4609.92659375,"end":4610.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4611.66471875,"end":4615.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4615.529093749999,"end":4615.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4615.815968749999,"end":4629.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4629.34971875,"end":4639.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4639.626593749999,"end":4650.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4651.50659375,"end":4653.362843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4653.497843749999,"end":4670.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4670.32221875,"end":4680.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4680.80159375,"end":4684.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4685.17221875,"end":4703.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4703.700968749999,"end":4708.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4708.358468750001,"end":4718.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4718.466593749999,"end":4721.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4721.82471875,"end":4727.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4728.0009687500005,"end":4740.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4741.14659375,"end":4754.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4754.22471875,"end":4754.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4754.27534375,"end":4766.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4766.948468750001,"end":4772.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4772.5340937500005,"end":4804.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4805.001593749999,"end":4805.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4805.946593750001,"end":4816.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4817.03346875,"end":4818.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4818.67034375,"end":4819.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4820.91471875,"end":4821.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4822.19721875,"end":4852.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4852.75784375,"end":4879.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4879.94346875,"end":4882.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4882.66034375,"end":4894.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4894.8778437500005,"end":4895.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4896.042218750001,"end":4898.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4899.417218750001,"end":4901.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4903.163468750001,"end":4905.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4905.57659375,"end":4907.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4909.10346875,"end":4912.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4913.30534375,"end":4919.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4920.15659375,"end":4924.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4924.66221875,"end":4925.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4925.87721875,"end":4930.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4931.057843750001,"end":4936.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4936.55909375,"end":4937.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4938.82034375,"end":4940.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4940.91284375,"end":4951.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4951.5947187500005,"end":4959.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4959.81284375,"end":4962.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4963.390343749999,"end":4966.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4966.93409375,"end":4980.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4981.24409375,"end":4983.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4983.690968750001,"end":4985.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4985.985968749999,"end":4987.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4987.8084687499995,"end":4988.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4989.512843750001,"end":4990.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4991.099093750001,"end":4992.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4994.06909375,"end":5000.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5001.15659375,"end":5002.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5002.624718749999,"end":5013.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5013.644093750001,"end":5017.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5017.305968750001,"end":5019.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5020.124093750001,"end":5023.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5023.397843750001,"end":5024.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5024.78159375,"end":5041.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5043.34409375,"end":5055.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5055.966593749999,"end":5059.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5060.53971875,"end":5061.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5063.104718750001,"end":5078.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5081.009093750001,"end":5081.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5082.66284375,"end":5084.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5084.78909375,"end":5086.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5087.69159375,"end":5093.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5095.09971875,"end":5100.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5100.044093750001,"end":5100.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5100.685343749999,"end":5104.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5104.954718749999,"end":5111.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5111.670968750001,"end":5200.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5165.384093750001,"end":5165.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5167.37534375,"end":5167.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5168.72534375,"end":5169.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5201.108468750001,"end":5204.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5205.546593749999,"end":5207.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5207.92596875,"end":5213.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5213.9334687499995,"end":5214.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5215.637843750001,"end":5217.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5217.966593749999,"end":5233.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5234.08221875,"end":5314.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5314.626593749999,"end":5323.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5323.80659375,"end":5331.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5331.24846875,"end":5333.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5334.218468749999,"end":5341.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5341.66034375,"end":5344.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5345.45721875,"end":5370.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5371.64721875,"end":5383.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5383.69596875,"end":5393.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5394.05721875,"end":5399.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5400.317843750001,"end":5409.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5410.18971875,"end":5419.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5420.07846875,"end":5425.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5425.42784375,"end":5427.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5427.317843750001,"end":5429.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5430.270968750001,"end":5434.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5435.13096875,"end":5438.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5438.3709687499995,"end":5441.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5442.28596875,"end":5464.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5464.999718749999,"end":5465.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5465.03346875,"end":5465.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5465.82659375,"end":5465.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5465.843468749999,"end":5465.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5466.265343749999,"end":5467.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5467.024718750001,"end":5467.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5467.0584687499995,"end":5467.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5467.09221875,"end":5467.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5467.61534375,"end":5467.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5467.632218750001,"end":5470.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5472.25596875,"end":5473.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5473.960343750001,"end":5476.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5476.94721875,"end":5479.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5479.495343750001,"end":5482.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5483.27534375,"end":5488.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5488.65846875,"end":5490.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5491.5272187499995,"end":5493.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5494.075343750001,"end":5494.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5495.35784375,"end":5497.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5497.60221875,"end":5500.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5500.89284375,"end":5503.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5504.30159375,"end":5506.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5506.680968750001,"end":5507.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5508.8915937500005,"end":5510.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5511.05159375,"end":5511.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5511.979718750001,"end":5513.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5513.59971875,"end":5514.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5514.966593749999,"end":5520.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5520.923468749999,"end":5528.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5528.55096875,"end":5530.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5530.626593749999,"end":5531.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5532.3309687500005,"end":5533.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5534.67659375,"end":5535.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5536.14471875,"end":5537.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5538.05159375,"end":5539.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5541.00471875,"end":5543.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5543.36721875,"end":5545.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5545.965968750001,"end":5546.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5547.58596875,"end":5549.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5549.88096875,"end":5550.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5551.3153437500005,"end":5552.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5554.015343749999,"end":5555.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5557.3397187499995,"end":5557.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5557.94721875,"end":5558.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5559.56721875,"end":5560.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5561.40659375,"end":5562.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5563.448468750001,"end":5565.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5565.43971875,"end":5565.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5565.929093750001,"end":5567.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5569.388468749999,"end":5570.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5571.7509687500005,"end":5574.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5575.159718750001,"end":5575.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5576.577218750001,"end":5577.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5578.14659375,"end":5580.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5580.981593750001,"end":5582.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5582.702843749999,"end":5584.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5585.0653437500005,"end":5586.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5587.967843750001,"end":5589.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5589.840968750001,"end":5592.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5593.38471875,"end":5597.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5598.19409375,"end":5600.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5600.32034375,"end":5601.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5602.51409375,"end":5604.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5605.3153437500005,"end":5607.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5608.08284375,"end":5608.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5609.6522187499995,"end":5610.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5611.3397187499995,"end":5613.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5614.32659375,"end":5617.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5618.35971875,"end":5619.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5620.23284375,"end":5621.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5622.645968750001,"end":5624.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5624.704718749999,"end":5626.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5626.965968750001,"end":5627.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5628.687218749999,"end":5628.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5629.37909375,"end":5631.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5631.99471875,"end":5632.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5633.17596875,"end":5635.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5636.02784375,"end":5638.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5639.284718750001,"end":5640.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5641.630343750001,"end":5643.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5643.689093749999,"end":5645.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5646.11909375,"end":5648.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5649.07221875,"end":5650.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5650.624718749999,"end":5651.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5652.413468750001,"end":5653.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5653.98284375,"end":5657.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5657.661593750001,"end":5659.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5659.80471875,"end":5660.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5661.272843750001,"end":5663.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5663.247218750001,"end":5664.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5664.833468750001,"end":5665.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5665.93034375,"end":5668.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5669.2040937500005,"end":5674.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5675.245343750001,"end":5676.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5676.983468750001,"end":5678.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5679.37971875,"end":5680.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5681.235968749999,"end":5681.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5682.24846875,"end":5685.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5686.8553437499995,"end":5686.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5686.9228437500005,"end":5687.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5688.829718749999,"end":5692.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5693.335343750001,"end":5695.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5696.35596875,"end":5699.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5699.46096875,"end":5701.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5701.671593749999,"end":5707.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5707.98284375,"end":5711.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5711.69534375,"end":5716.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5717.483468750001,"end":5718.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5718.76596875,"end":5720.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5721.3309687500005,"end":5724.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5724.604718750001,"end":5730.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5731.10159375,"end":5734.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5734.9490937499995,"end":5736.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5737.395968750001,"end":5744.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5744.888468749999,"end":5748.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5749.37721875,"end":5754.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5754.54096875,"end":5754.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5755.215968750001,"end":5758.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5758.33784375,"end":5760.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5760.81846875,"end":5766.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5766.94409375,"end":5769.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5770.4540937500005,"end":5774.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5775.11159375,"end":5781.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5782.46909375,"end":5784.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5785.169093750001,"end":5786.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5786.97471875,"end":5793.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5794.264718750001,"end":5803.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5803.37721875,"end":5806.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5806.904093749999,"end":5807.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5807.984093749999,"end":5810.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5810.9540937500005,"end":5827.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5827.52534375,"end":5831.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5831.35596875,"end":5835.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5832.33471875,"end":5832.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5834.73096875,"end":5837.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5836.57034375,"end":5837.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5837.4647187499995,"end":5842.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5838.409718750001,"end":5838.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5839.827218750001,"end":5839.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5840.02971875,"end":5840.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5841.885968750001,"end":5842.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5842.763468749999,"end":5844.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5845.0584687499995,"end":5850.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5850.559718750001,"end":5853.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5853.732218749999,"end":5856.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5856.80346875,"end":5858.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5858.9803437499995,"end":5860.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5860.46534375,"end":5863.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5864.39721875,"end":5868.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5868.2615937499995,"end":5869.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5869.814093750001,"end":5876.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5877.087218750001,"end":5880.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5881.255343750001,"end":5883.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5883.972218750001,"end":5886.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5887.19534375,"end":5887.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5887.920968750001,"end":5896.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5896.628468750001,"end":5897.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5898.130343750001,"end":5901.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5902.669718749999,"end":5905.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5905.8084687499995,"end":5915.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5915.64659375,"end":5917.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5917.671593749999,"end":5919.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5919.6122187500005,"end":5948.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5949.21096875,"end":5949.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5950.74659375,"end":5951.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5955.80909375,"end":5956.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5958.374093750001,"end":5958.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5958.829718750001,"end":5961.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5962.778468750001,"end":5963.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5963.622218750001,"end":5980.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5981.59409375,"end":5994.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5995.65096875,"end":5998.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6000.39284375,"end":6001.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6002.755343750001,"end":6003.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6004.814093750001,"end":6005.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6009.370343750001,"end":6009.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6011.192843750001,"end":6012.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6013.217843750001,"end":6015.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6015.411593750001,"end":6035.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6035.40846875,"end":6038.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6038.73284375,"end":6041.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6042.1415937500005,"end":6056.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6056.97471875,"end":6123.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6123.4959687499995,"end":6123.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6123.968468749999,"end":6126.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6126.43221875,"end":6156.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6156.233468750001,"end":6158.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6159.220343750001,"end":6160.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6161.81909375,"end":6161.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6161.83596875,"end":6169.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6170.72909375,"end":6173.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6174.07034375,"end":6178.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6174.86346875,"end":6175.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6175.0322187500005,"end":6176.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6176.905343750001,"end":6178.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6178.87971875,"end":6178.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6178.964093750001,"end":6179.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6179.31846875,"end":6179.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6179.35221875,"end":6189.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6181.84971875,"end":6184.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6184.09409375,"end":6184.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6184.110968750001,"end":6184.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6189.71346875,"end":6190.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6190.202843749999,"end":6191.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6192.16034375,"end":6193.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6193.71284375,"end":6196.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6195.180968750001,"end":6195.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6195.2147187499995,"end":6195.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6196.446593750001,"end":6197.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6198.62346875,"end":6199.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6200.44596875,"end":6222.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6223.260968750001,"end":6227.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6227.6990937499995,"end":6231.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6231.61409375,"end":6236.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6236.77784375,"end":6240.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6241.13159375,"end":6244.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6244.50659375,"end":6248.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6248.26971875,"end":6249.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6250.80096875,"end":6251.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6255.1209687499995,"end":6256.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6256.6903437500005,"end":6258.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6261.229718750001,"end":6263.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6264.14909375,"end":6265.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6267.99659375,"end":6269.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6269.21159375,"end":6269.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6269.81909375,"end":6279.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6279.96096875,"end":6280.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6280.062218749999,"end":6282.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6285.360968750001,"end":6285.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6286.812218749999,"end":6288.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6289.24221875,"end":6302.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6294.20346875,"end":6294.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6294.220343750001,"end":6295.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6295.23284375,"end":6295.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6303.19784375,"end":6303.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6303.61971875,"end":6305.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6303.82221875,"end":6309.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6307.70346875,"end":6309.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6309.458468750001,"end":6312.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6310.639718750001,"end":6311.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6312.02346875,"end":6312.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6312.225968750001,"end":6313.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6313.55909375,"end":6317.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6316.24221875,"end":6322.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6317.67659375,"end":6317.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6321.186593750001,"end":6321.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6321.2372187500005,"end":6323.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6323.852843750001,"end":6324.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6324.25784375,"end":6325.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6326.249093750001,"end":6326.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6327.00846875,"end":6332.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6332.948468750001,"end":6334.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6335.22659375,"end":6338.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6339.29346875,"end":6340.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6340.23846875,"end":6340.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6341.11596875,"end":6343.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6343.950968749999,"end":6345.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6346.026593750001,"end":6355.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6356.235968750001,"end":6356.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6358.17659375,"end":6359.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6360.48846875,"end":6370.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6370.731593750001,"end":6371.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6372.75659375,"end":6395.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6395.63909375,"end":6401.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6402.28784375,"end":6403.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6405.224093750001,"end":6405.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6405.882218750001,"end":6424.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6424.343468749999,"end":6452.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6452.54159375,"end":6452.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6454.19534375,"end":6462.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6463.03784375,"end":6464.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6464.55659375,"end":6466.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6466.64909375,"end":6467.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6467.88096875,"end":6470.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6470.83409375,"end":6472.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6472.639718750001,"end":6497.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6498.357218749999,"end":6501.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6504.3309687500005,"end":6504.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6504.7528437500005,"end":6505.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6505.64721875,"end":6505.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6505.93409375,"end":6506.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6506.08596875,"end":6506.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6506.1365937499995,"end":6506.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6506.82846875,"end":6506.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6506.845343750001,"end":6506.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6506.92971875,"end":6506.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6506.96346875,"end":6508.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6507.33471875,"end":6507.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6508.2459687499995,"end":6509.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6509.798468750001,"end":6510.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6511.165343750001,"end":6511.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6512.81909375,"end":6535.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6535.870343750001,"end":6539.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6542.55284375,"end":6544.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6544.780343750001,"end":6547.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6548.425343750001,"end":6549.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6551.715968750001,"end":6781.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6782.093468749999,"end":6838.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6841.5947187500005,"end":6847.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6847.55159375,"end":6847.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6848.715968750001,"end":6851.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6851.92221875,"end":6859.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6859.482218749999,"end":6877.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6877.75784375,"end":6887.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6887.714093750001,"end":6890.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6891.122843749999,"end":6927.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6927.99471875,"end":6928.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6930.222218750001,"end":6930.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6930.9647187499995,"end":6934.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6934.812218750001,"end":6935.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6935.622218750001,"end":6946.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6947.046593750001,"end":6950.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6951.180968750001,"end":6957.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6958.116593750001,"end":6960.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6961.2215937500005,"end":6973.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6974.012843750001,"end":6974.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6974.02971875,"end":6975.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6977.573468750001,"end":6982.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6983.1590937500005,"end":6983.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6984.10409375,"end":6988.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6988.812218750001,"end":6994.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6994.70159375,"end":6996.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6996.270968750001,"end":6998.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6999.67971875,"end":7001.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7002.885968750001,"end":7005.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7005.889718750001,"end":7010.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7010.26034375,"end":7018.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7019.49096875,"end":7021.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7021.920968750001,"end":7022.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7023.70971875,"end":7028.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7029.58221875,"end":7036.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7036.56846875,"end":7041.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7041.597218750001,"end":7043.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7043.6728437500005,"end":7047.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7047.90846875,"end":7049.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7050.085343750001,"end":7052.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7052.194718750001,"end":7052.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7054.540343750001,"end":7067.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7068.0740937499995,"end":7069.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7069.69409375,"end":7071.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7072.05659375,"end":7074.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7074.72284375,"end":7084.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7084.814093750001,"end":7086.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7086.43409375,"end":7087.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7087.83471875,"end":7088.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7088.796593750001,"end":7091.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7092.01971875,"end":7093.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7094.2978437500005,"end":7099.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7099.967843750001,"end":7100.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7100.609093750001,"end":7107.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7108.47284375,"end":7120.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7120.94346875,"end":7122.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7122.597218750001,"end":7124.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7125.24659375,"end":7132.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7132.73909375,"end":7136.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7137.21096875,"end":7144.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7145.108468750001,"end":7157.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7157.798468750001,"end":7182.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7182.452843750001,"end":7183.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7183.769093750001,"end":7183.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7184.07284375,"end":7185.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7185.608468750001,"end":7208.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7208.474093750001,"end":7215.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7216.202843750001,"end":7219.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7220.2528437500005,"end":7279.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7280.378468750001,"end":7281.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7282.31909375,"end":7305.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7306.028468750001,"end":7306.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7306.0790937500005,"end":7309.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7313.16659375,"end":7313.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7313.892218750001,"end":7317.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7318.819718750001,"end":7320.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7320.557843750001,"end":7321.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7322.295968750001,"end":7323.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7324.23659375,"end":7325.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7326.21096875,"end":7332.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7333.23096875,"end":7336.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7337.36534375,"end":7341.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7342.19159375,"end":7344.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7345.33034375,"end":7350.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7350.831593750001,"end":7353.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7353.497843749999,"end":7368.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7368.314093750001,"end":7370.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7370.794718749999,"end":7376.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7376.700968749999,"end":7378.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7378.5740937499995,"end":7388.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7388.3447187500005,"end":7393.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7393.3397187499995,"end":7398.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7399.448468750001,"end":7401.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7401.642218750001,"end":7403.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7403.5322187500005,"end":7405.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7406.40096875,"end":7416.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7417.167218750001,"end":7421.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7421.95971875,"end":7454.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7454.49471875,"end":7459.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7460.13096875,"end":7463.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7463.387843750001,"end":7463.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7463.421593750001,"end":7464.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7464.602843750001,"end":7487.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7488.48096875,"end":7544.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7544.286593750001,"end":7553.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7553.7197187500005,"end":7561.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7561.75221875,"end":7569.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7570.780343750001,"end":7572.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7572.75471875,"end":7573.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7573.51409375,"end":7574.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7585.46159375,"end":7589.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7589.44409375,"end":7602.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7602.792218750001,"end":7605.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7606.251593750001,"end":7608.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7609.677218750001,"end":7628.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7629.38721875,"end":7641.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7642.110968750001,"end":7661.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7662.25971875,"end":7662.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7664.1834687499995,"end":7665.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7666.03971875,"end":7668.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7669.98846875,"end":7672.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7672.958468750001,"end":7675.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7675.50659375,"end":7679.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7680.501593750001,"end":7684.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7685.142218750001,"end":7689.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7689.68159375,"end":7691.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7691.45346875,"end":7697.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7698.270968750001,"end":7699.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7700.44784375,"end":7702.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7703.384093750001,"end":7703.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7704.16034375,"end":7705.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7705.915343750001,"end":7706.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7706.3709687499995,"end":7707.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7707.72096875,"end":7709.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7709.948468750001,"end":7710.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7710.690968750001,"end":7711.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7712.81721875,"end":7713.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7714.55534375,"end":7716.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7717.170968750001,"end":7718.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7718.6728437500005,"end":7719.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7719.499718750001,"end":7720.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7721.575343750001,"end":7723.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7724.35971875,"end":7727.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7727.987843750001,"end":7730.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7730.55284375,"end":7731.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7733.13471875,"end":7733.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7733.7928437499995,"end":7734.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7734.82221875,"end":7735.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7737.15096875,"end":7739.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7740.509093750001,"end":7740.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7741.251593750001,"end":7741.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7742.5340937500005,"end":7743.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7744.28909375,"end":7745.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7746.685343749999,"end":7747.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7747.64721875,"end":7748.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7749.48659375,"end":7751.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7751.83221875,"end":7753.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7754.0428437499995,"end":7755.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7756.1522187499995,"end":7757.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7757.78909375,"end":7758.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7759.020968750001,"end":7760.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7760.387843750001,"end":7761.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7761.602843750001,"end":7761.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7762.109093750001,"end":7762.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7763.104718750001,"end":7764.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7764.5897187499995,"end":7766.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7767.10409375,"end":7767.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7768.04909375,"end":7768.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7768.74096875,"end":7769.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7769.854718750001,"end":7771.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7771.390343750001,"end":7773.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7772.014718750001,"end":7773.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7773.43221875,"end":7773.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7774.79909375,"end":7775.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7776.30096875,"end":7777.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7778.1572187500005,"end":7779.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7779.591593749999,"end":7780.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7781.4647187499995,"end":7783.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7783.18596875,"end":7784.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7784.468468750001,"end":7785.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7785.464093750001,"end":7786.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7787.30346875,"end":7789.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7789.311593750001,"end":7790.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7790.8134687500005,"end":7791.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7792.8553437499995,"end":7794.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7795.52159375,"end":7797.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7798.4072187500005,"end":7799.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7800.01034375,"end":7801.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7802.0184687500005,"end":7802.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7802.9803437499995,"end":7804.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7804.296593750001,"end":7805.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7805.69721875,"end":7806.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7806.49034375,"end":7807.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7807.31721875,"end":7808.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7808.22846875,"end":7808.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7809.780968750001,"end":7811.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7812.05909375,"end":7812.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7812.7509687500005,"end":7813.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7813.814093750001,"end":7814.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7814.944718750001,"end":7815.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7815.501593750001,"end":7816.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7816.716593749999,"end":7817.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7817.560343749999,"end":7818.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7820.54721875,"end":7821.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7822.3865937499995,"end":7823.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7823.702843750001,"end":7824.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7825.440968750001,"end":7826.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7826.4872187500005,"end":7826.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7827.837218750001,"end":7829.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7830.182843750001,"end":7831.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7832.292218750001,"end":7833.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7834.249718750001,"end":7835.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7836.24096875,"end":7837.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7838.333468750001,"end":7838.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7838.8397187499995,"end":7839.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7841.30346875,"end":7841.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7842.737843750001,"end":7843.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7843.581593750001,"end":7844.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7845.15096875,"end":7845.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7845.640343750001,"end":7846.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7847.26034375,"end":7849.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7849.825343750001,"end":7850.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7851.884093750001,"end":7852.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7853.622218750001,"end":7854.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7855.14096875,"end":7855.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7855.967843750001,"end":7856.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7856.59221875,"end":7857.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7858.3134687500005,"end":7858.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7858.819718750001,"end":7859.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7859.86596875,"end":7860.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7861.13159375,"end":7862.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7864.202843750001,"end":7865.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7866.126593750001,"end":7866.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7866.784718750001,"end":7867.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7868.08409375,"end":7868.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7869.56909375,"end":7870.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7871.86409375,"end":7872.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7872.67409375,"end":7872.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7874.429093750001,"end":7875.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7876.116593750001,"end":7877.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7878.20909375,"end":7879.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7880.335343750001,"end":7880.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7882.1747187500005,"end":7882.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7882.917218750001,"end":7884.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7884.52034375,"end":7885.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7885.684718750001,"end":7887.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7888.064093750001,"end":7888.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7889.194718750001,"end":7890.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7890.52784375,"end":7892.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7893.34596875,"end":7894.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7895.97846875,"end":7896.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7897.210343750001,"end":7897.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7898.2059687500005,"end":7899.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7899.5897187499995,"end":7900.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7900.78784375,"end":7901.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7903.0322187500005,"end":7904.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7904.669093750001,"end":7905.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7906.27221875,"end":7907.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7908.82034375,"end":7909.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7910.96346875,"end":7912.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7912.22909375,"end":7912.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7913.292218750001,"end":7914.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7914.72659375,"end":7915.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7917.49409375,"end":7919.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7919.468468750001,"end":7920.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7920.919718749999,"end":7921.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7921.780343750001,"end":7924.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7924.345343750001,"end":7925.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7925.50971875,"end":7926.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7926.85971875,"end":7927.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7927.450343750001,"end":7928.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7928.12534375,"end":7930.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7930.538468750001,"end":7931.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7931.16284375,"end":7931.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7932.934718750001,"end":7933.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7933.812218750001,"end":7935.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7935.651593750001,"end":7937.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7937.50784375,"end":7938.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7937.77784375,"end":7938.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7939.36409375,"end":7940.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7940.20784375,"end":7940.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7941.01784375,"end":7941.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7942.57034375,"end":7943.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7943.515343750001,"end":7944.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7945.55721875,"end":7946.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7947.599093750001,"end":7948.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7948.341593749999,"end":7948.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7949.30346875,"end":7950.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7951.159718750001,"end":7952.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7952.948468750001,"end":7953.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7953.35346875,"end":7954.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7954.9228437500005,"end":7957.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7957.36971875,"end":7959.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7959.276593750001,"end":7960.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7961.26784375,"end":7961.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7962.179093750001,"end":7963.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7963.42784375,"end":7964.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7965.25034375,"end":7965.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7965.72284375,"end":7967.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7968.169718749999,"end":7969.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7970.329718750001,"end":7971.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7971.544718749999,"end":7972.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7972.79346875,"end":7974.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7975.122218750001,"end":7976.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7977.0965937500005,"end":7977.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7978.1259687500005,"end":7978.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7979.12159375,"end":7979.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7979.948468750001,"end":7981.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7981.93971875,"end":7982.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7983.07034375,"end":7983.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7984.302218750001,"end":7984.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7985.5340937500005,"end":7986.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7986.698468750001,"end":7988.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7989.0272187499995,"end":7990.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7990.765343750001,"end":7991.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7991.74409375,"end":7992.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7992.95909375,"end":7993.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7993.46534375,"end":7998.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7998.696593750001,"end":7998.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8001.24471875,"end":8014.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8015.419718749999,"end":8017.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8017.69784375,"end":8019.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8020.634093750001,"end":8040.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8041.069718750001,"end":8045.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8045.72721875,"end":8046.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8045.895968750001,"end":8045.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8045.946593750001,"end":8045.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8045.9803437499995,"end":8046.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8046.25034375,"end":8046.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8046.368468750001,"end":8050.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8046.419093750001,"end":8046.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8046.53721875,"end":8048.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8048.798468750001,"end":8049.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8049.89534375,"end":8058.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8058.48471875,"end":8059.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8060.49284375,"end":8061.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8062.28159375,"end":8062.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8062.75409375,"end":8064.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8065.18409375,"end":8067.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8075.106593750001,"end":8075.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8075.528468750001,"end":8076.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8076.591593750001,"end":8088.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8083.5947187500005,"end":8084.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8085.315968750001,"end":8086.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8086.024718750001,"end":8087.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8087.17221875,"end":8087.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8087.340968750001,"end":8088.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8088.1678437499995,"end":8088.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8088.2353437500005,"end":8088.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8088.25221875,"end":8088.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8089.14659375,"end":8089.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8089.19721875,"end":8101.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8089.264718750001,"end":8091.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8101.499093750001,"end":8119.200968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8106.15659375,"end":8106.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8106.1903437500005,"end":8107.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8107.69221875,"end":8109.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8109.02534375,"end":8109.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8109.43034375,"end":8109.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8109.548468750001,"end":8109.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8109.5653437500005,"end":8109.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8113.04159375,"end":8114.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8114.22284375,"end":8119.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8119.04909375,"end":8119.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8119.065968750001,"end":8129.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8129.86596875,"end":8130.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8129.96721875,"end":8130.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8130.034718750001,"end":8130.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8130.43971875,"end":8130.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8130.91221875,"end":8136.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8130.96284375,"end":8132.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8134.624718750001,"end":8134.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8136.02534375,"end":8137.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8137.5947187500005,"end":8137.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8137.79721875,"end":8137.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8137.88159375,"end":8139.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8139.974093750001,"end":8142.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8142.15096875,"end":8145.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8144.41221875,"end":8145.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8145.1209687499995,"end":8148.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8145.222218750001,"end":8145.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8145.49221875,"end":8145.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8145.5428437499995,"end":8145.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8145.67784375,"end":8145.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8147.31471875,"end":8147.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8148.68159375,"end":8151.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8149.778468750001,"end":8150.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8151.229718750001,"end":8151.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8152.259093750001,"end":8155.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8155.1278437500005,"end":8160.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8160.84846875,"end":8162.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8162.704718750001,"end":8164.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8163.919718750001,"end":8172.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8166.265343750001,"end":8166.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8167.46346875,"end":8167.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8167.93596875,"end":8167.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8167.98659375,"end":8168.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8168.104718750001,"end":8168.138468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8168.138468750001,"end":8169.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8169.72471875,"end":8170.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8172.0028437500005,"end":8172.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8172.47534375,"end":8172.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8172.509093750001,"end":8172.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8172.5428437499995,"end":8172.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8172.559718750001,"end":8172.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8172.57659375,"end":8172.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8172.62721875,"end":8173.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8172.71159375,"end":8172.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8172.76221875,"end":8175.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8173.673468750001,"end":8173.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8174.7197187500005,"end":8174.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8174.87159375,"end":8188.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8177.942843750001,"end":8177.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8177.97659375,"end":8177.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8177.993468750001,"end":8178.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8178.01034375,"end":8178.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8178.651593750001,"end":8178.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8178.735968750001,"end":8178.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8182.684718750001,"end":8183.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8187.42659375,"end":8190.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8191.22346875,"end":8191.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8191.24034375,"end":8199.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8199.84659375,"end":8202.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8199.964718750001,"end":8200.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8200.032218750002,"end":8200.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8201.399093750002,"end":8201.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8201.41596875,"end":8201.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8201.43284375,"end":8203.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8203.019093750001,"end":8203.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8203.20471875,"end":8203.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8203.22159375,"end":8203.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8203.660343750002,"end":8204.571593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8204.571593749999,"end":8208.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8207.17034375,"end":8207.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8210.27534375,"end":8217.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8217.852218750002,"end":8221.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8219.72534375,"end":8219.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8221.98659375,"end":8224.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8223.82596875,"end":8229.040343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8229.10784375,"end":8233.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8229.69846875,"end":8230.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8232.95534375,"end":8235.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8235.840968750003,"end":8235.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8235.891593750002,"end":8236.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8236.785968750002,"end":8236.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8236.97159375,"end":8236.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8237.258468750002,"end":8238.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8237.410343750002,"end":8241.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8239.047218750002,"end":8242.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8241.696593749999,"end":8241.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8242.06784375,"end":8242.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8242.472843750002,"end":8244.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8259.972218750001,"end":8262.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8263.33034375,"end":8263.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8263.48221875,"end":8272.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8264.157218750002,"end":8265.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8268.81471875,"end":8268.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8269.202843750001,"end":8270.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8270.97471875,"end":8271.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8272.24034375,"end":8279.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8279.226593750001,"end":8280.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8280.69471875,"end":8286.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8280.72846875,"end":8282.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8282.48346875,"end":8283.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8284.57596875,"end":8286.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8287.02284375,"end":8287.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8287.96784375,"end":8288.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8288.96346875,"end":8289.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8300.067218750002,"end":8300.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8300.92784375,"end":8302.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8301.282218750002,"end":8301.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8302.21034375,"end":8302.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8302.56471875,"end":8302.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8302.81784375,"end":8302.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8303.813468750002,"end":8304.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8304.50534375,"end":8304.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8306.93534375,"end":8309.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8310.664718750002,"end":8311.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8316.452843750001,"end":8320.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8320.50284375,"end":8321.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8324.485343750002,"end":8325.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8326.29096875,"end":8327.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8327.97846875,"end":8329.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8329.83471875,"end":8330.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8332.956593750001,"end":8333.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8333.817218750002,"end":8343.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8343.942218750002,"end":8362.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8362.79159375,"end":8364.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8366.672843750002,"end":8370.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8370.68909375,"end":8376.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8377.50659375,"end":8378.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8378.367218750001,"end":8381.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8382.855968750002,"end":8391.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8388.340343750002,"end":8388.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8391.47909375,"end":8395.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8396.05221875,"end":8399.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8400.203468750002,"end":8402.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8400.777218750001,"end":8400.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8400.794093750003,"end":8401.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8401.047218750002,"end":8401.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8401.165343750003,"end":8401.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8401.48596875,"end":8401.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8401.941593750002,"end":8401.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8401.95846875,"end":8401.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8401.97534375,"end":8402.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8402.02596875,"end":8402.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8403.055343750002,"end":8408.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8405.24909375,"end":8405.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8408.72534375,"end":8409.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8409.012218750002,"end":8411.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8410.41284375,"end":8411.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8412.31971875,"end":8416.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8416.67346875,"end":8418.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8418.985343750002,"end":8419.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8419.457843750002,"end":8422.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8422.512218750002,"end":8423.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8423.102843750003,"end":8423.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8424.26721875,"end":8425.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8426.24159375,"end":8427.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8427.13596875,"end":8429.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8431.30409375,"end":8432.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8432.67096875,"end":8435.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8435.843468750001,"end":8437.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8437.649093750002,"end":8444.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8444.871593750002,"end":8450.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8450.676593750002,"end":8453.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8454.33846875,"end":8456.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8456.684093750002,"end":8456.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8456.734718750002,"end":8457.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8457.12284375,"end":8461.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8462.08409375,"end":8467.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8465.23971875,"end":8466.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8466.066593750002,"end":8466.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8468.26034375,"end":8470.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8470.30221875,"end":8473.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8473.91346875,"end":8478.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8479.347218750001,"end":8481.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8481.33846875,"end":8483.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8483.70096875,"end":8488.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8488.915343750003,"end":8490.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8491.09221875,"end":8492.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8493.235343750002,"end":8494.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8495.024093750002,"end":8498.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8498.770343750002,"end":8531.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8531.71034375,"end":8556.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8558.96346875,"end":8558.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8558.980343750001,"end":8566.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8567.265968750002,"end":8570.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8571.04596875,"end":8573.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8574.235343750002,"end":8574.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8576.074718750002,"end":8588.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8588.91659375,"end":8597.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8597.961593750002,"end":8604.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8605.234718750002,"end":8610.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8611.815968750001,"end":8612.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8611.984718750002,"end":8612.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8612.32221875,"end":8612.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8613.030968750001,"end":8613.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8613.70596875,"end":8613.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8613.790343750003,"end":8613.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8613.992843750002,"end":8614.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8614.43159375,"end":8621.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8621.97471875,"end":8628.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8629.011593750001,"end":8632.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8632.977218750002,"end":8637.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8637.972218750001,"end":8654.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8655.690968750001,"end":8656.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8657.715968750003,"end":8660.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8660.83784375,"end":8706.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8708.15534375,"end":8709.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8709.45471875,"end":8711.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8711.749718750001,"end":8728.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8732.489093750002,"end":8748.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8748.402218750001,"end":8748.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8749.313468750002,"end":8761.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8753.02596875,"end":8753.515343750001}],"whisperx":[{"start":154.264,"end":156.883,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案："},{"start":262.014,"end":263.637,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":304.145,"end":305.486,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":347.585,"end":349.155,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案："},{"start":705.646,"end":707.398,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":916.793,"end":918.35,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1124.025,"end":1125.859,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1155.357,"end":1156.097,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1255.714,"end":1257.824,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1378.67,"end":1380.35,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1731.193,"end":1732.088,"text":"草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1801.479,"end":1805.539,"text":"好,我們現在開會,請組密報告出席人數。"},{"start":1807.077,"end":1820.85,"text":"報告全體會出席委員十一人以足法定人數。好,我們現在開會進行報告事項,請宣讀上次會議事錄。立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議議事錄,時間113年5月23日星期四,9時至11時31分,地點紅樓101會議室,出席委員、邱議員委員等14人。"},{"start":1832.381,"end":1851.81,"text":"草案、列席委員葛如荊委員等13人、列席委員、公平會主委李美季相關人員、衛福部、勞動部、經濟部、行政院消保處、訴發部、法務部等單位代表及相關人員、主席、邱昭吉委員、議員報告事項依宣讀上次會議事務決定確定。"},{"start":1852.85,"end":1865.749,"text":"二、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施進行報告並被質詢。"},{"start":1867.725,"end":1886.1,"text":"報告事項與討論事項合併尋答委員楊瓊英說明提案要旨公民會主委李美報告後委員邱盈盈等17人提出質詢均由公民會李主委、消保處中處長、勞動部勞動司許專委及相關人集席答覆決定一、登記發言委員處不在場者會區域經營發言完畢尋答結束二、"},{"start":1888.402,"end":1905.86,"text":"委員林黛樺、陳冠廷及陳超明所提書面質詢日入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆部分檢証會單日一週內。書面答覆並複製本會。討論事項審查一、本院委員邱志偉等人擬具《多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":1906.4,"end":1934.76,"text":"二、本院委員楊求英等人擬具多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。決議一、第十三條照委員邱志偉等人及委員楊求英等人提案通過。二、併案審查文具擬具審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推請邱昭及委員議員院會討論時作補充說明。主席宣告通過此條文相對法制用與授權主席及議事人員整理。散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1941.073,"end":1947.483,"text":"請問各位同仁,上次的會議意思錄有錯誤化解?沒有好,那我們意思錄確認我們繼續進行討論事項,請宣讀"},{"start":1952.369,"end":1979.914,"text":"草案案：繼續審查：一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案〉二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案案〉三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案案〉四、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案案〉五、本院委員蔡宇等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案案〉今日處理宣�"},{"start":1982.162,"end":1997.535,"text":"好,那我們本日議程所列的討論事項離島建設條例部分條文修正草案我們總共有五個版本那麼委員會已經在5月16號巡打結束我們現在要進行廣泛討論"},{"start":1999.837,"end":2013.626,"text":"關於討論,沒有人登記。我們請議事人員宣讀所有的條文,如果有宣稱動議及附帶決議,請一併宣讀。宣讀完畢之後,我們再行協商,請宣讀。"},{"start":2018.427,"end":2037.572,"text":"委員黃仁等人提案第十三條除第二項修正為65歲以上及年滿55歲具原住民身份之離島地區居民、全民健康保險保險對象應自付之保險費由中央政府編列預算支應其餘同性刑法條文"},{"start":2038.152,"end":2062.311,"text":"委員陳玉珍等人提案第三條本條例所稱重大建設投資計劃,細指經中央目的事業主管機關、政策上輔導之建設、縣市綜合發展計劃及離島綜合建設實施方案所列之計劃、縣市主管機關認定之重要產業投資或交由民間機構辦理之公共建設之計劃。"},{"start":2063.652,"end":2086.958,"text":"第五條、第一項第一款至第十款同縣刑法條文、第十一款修正為消防建設、第十二款由縣刑法第十一款移列、第十三款修正為災害防救、殯葬設施及濫葬行為之改善、第十四款至第十六款由縣刑法第十三款至第十五款避役。"},{"start":2088.697,"end":2102.455,"text":"第七條為鼓勵離島產業發展經中央目的事業主管機關或縣市主管機關認定為重大建設投資計畫者其土地使用變更審議程序自申請人"},{"start":2103.677,"end":2124.865,"text":"草案．土地使用分區或用地變更完成審查,以不超過一年為限,前向重大建設投資計劃之核定,屬中央目的事業主管機關政策上輔導之建設者,由離島建設指導委員會擬定,報請行政院核定之,屬縣市綜合發展計劃。"},{"start":2128.143,"end":2156.732,"text":"離島綜合建設實施方案所列之計劃及縣市主管機關政策上推動或輔導之建設者由縣市政府令定之重大建設投資計劃其都市計劃主要計劃非都市土地使用變更及國家公園主要計劃由縣市政府核定之不受都市計劃法、區域計劃法國家公園法及相關法令之限制"},{"start":2157.512,"end":2166.659,"text":"新增第七條之一為配合離島施政計劃之落實並改善居民生活品質離島地區應適時擴大都市計劃、都市計劃個案變更或都市計劃通盤檢討。」"},{"start":2173.385,"end":2192.506,"text":"涉及都市計劃農業區保護區或非都市土地並更為可建築用地者其開發之規劃及方式由縣市政府另訂之。第十條第一項末段增加其未符合免徵營業稅條件之銷售貨物或勞務之營利事業或營業人"},{"start":2196.414,"end":2225.254,"text":"自中華民國一百十三年度起至中華民國一百二十二年止營業事業所得稅依現行稅率減增百分之二十五其餘同現行法條文第一項第二項同現行法條文增列第三項前二項營業人為公用事業者其自國外進口專攻其本業及附屬業務使用之貨物或自國外購買專攻其本業及附屬業務使用之勞務"},{"start":2226.154,"end":2237.279,"text":"免徵營業稅及關稅、增滅第四項、第一項減免年限藉其前一年行政院得示實際推展情況,決定是否延長減免年限。"},{"start":2238.632,"end":2256.875,"text":"委員蔡易瑜等人提案。第十條之一,第一項墨具增加並得於臺灣本島兩地通行港口設置提貨處等文字其餘同現行法條文第一項,第二項及第三項同現行法條文,第四項末端"},{"start":2257.876,"end":2286.983,"text":"末段增加或臺灣本島提貨處者等文字其餘同現行法條文第四項、第五項同現行法條文、第六項末段增加或臺灣本島提貨處者等文字其餘同現行法條文第六項、第七項及第八項同現行法條文、第九項末具增加或臺灣本島提貨處提領等文字其餘同現行法條文第九項。委員"},{"start":2287.937,"end":2311.255,"text":"鄭天才等人所提修正動議第十三條,除第二項修正為65歲以上及年滿55歲、具原住民身份之離島地區居民、全民健康保險保險對象因自付之保險費由中央目的事業主管機關編列預算支應,其餘同線刑法條文宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2314.96,"end":2339.636,"text":"好,我們介紹今天立會的官員代表新的我們國發會新的主委劉靜清主委好,我們副主委彭麗珮主委副主委接下來我們經濟部市長胡市長接下來我們介紹財政部李政次"},{"start":2341.554,"end":2361.546,"text":"還有我們負稅署的宋署長以及公務署我們的彭署長好那接下來我們進行協商先協商離島建設條例第三條條文我們依序進行協商謝謝來"},{"start":2372.591,"end":2385.582,"text":"好,我們針對第三條的部分請行政部門來第三條沒有沒有"},{"start":2393.376,"end":2417.009,"text":"主席、各位委員大家早關於這第三條的部分我們是有一些擔心在將來該中央與地方之間的建設的不一致性所以我們的回應是不以由縣市政府進行認定這個是我們的看法好這是行政部門來來"},{"start":2423.237,"end":2450.708,"text":"再說明清楚來目前離島整個建設規劃是由中央整個規劃整體的規劃那現在這個條文是希望也把這個權力分到有地方一起來做那從本會的立場是我們是希望維持原條文來陳玉珍委員在這邊就好你坐著講一下因為你在協商請教主委今天早上金門飛機有沒有飛"},{"start":2452.968,"end":2481.243,"text":"道歉我不清楚你不知道嗎?天氣不好飛機又沒有飛不過剛剛起飛了那金門最近有什麼重大建設?我知道你也不知道在中央的官員哪幾個人真的知道金門發生什麼事情?哪裡真的知道金門需要什麼樣的重大建設?所以我們這個條文修正的目的就是在說中央的權力當然你們還是有但是如果地方可以了解可以"},{"start":2482.142,"end":2482.462,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":2513.451,"end":2514.211,"text":"條文修正草案 案"},{"start":2532.308,"end":2549.308,"text":"連江縣政府澎湖縣政府因為我們離島三個縣市有一個離島的這個就是縣市的匯報每一年都會開一次輪流在不同的縣市開像去年是在澎湖就我們的離島的不管是縣長、議長、立委都會一起去開會當然我們以前還有"},{"start":2549.828,"end":2553.65,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":2565.715,"end":2584.521,"text":"在這個如果你們沒有辦法給我們經費的情況下那我們自己也想要招商引資當然也是很困難啦但是至少我們地方各地方政府比較了解自己的需求所以我們希望上在政策上給我們支持至少放我們一條活路啊應該這樣子講你理解嗎我說不是一句話說你們覺得不適合就不適合好謝謝那接下來我們檢態論文委員請發言"},{"start":2590.572,"end":2607.766,"text":"好 謝謝主席啦各位同仁我想離島建設條例裡面談到的重大建設投資它有一些涉及到了這個都市計畫涉及到土地取得的一些排除的規定所以這個部分其實是用重大的部分才能做這樣的處理那如果這些重大的事項"},{"start":2608.607,"end":2636.926,"text":"如果片面可以由地方政府直接來認定的話我覺得未來會造成很多的這個問題跟困擾我認為還是應該回到由中央的主管機關來做整個的處理由國發會用行政院的整個高度來看國家的各項重大建設哪些該納入那我認為這個才能夠比較妥善的一個處理那如果地方政府認為有些重大的這個建設的話也可以循程序由地方政府送上來給中央那中央"},{"start":2637.566,"end":2639.067,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":2664.625,"end":2668.588,"text":"陳玉珍等18人擬具陳玉珍等18人擬具陳玉珍等18人擬具陳玉珍等18人擬具陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":2691.765,"end":2719.609,"text":"審查流程還有開放限制的區位基本上都是由縣市政府來做出審然後中央目的事業主管機關來做核定那麼呢最後當然由他們做初步的處理之後最後是由行政院考量國家政策跟離島的永續發展目標來透過部會協調協商再來做一個進一步所謂的核定"},{"start":2720.53,"end":2732.543,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":2735.306,"end":2764.29,"text":"希望中央來做一些核定因為重大計劃還有一些法令的處理甚至還有一些所謂都市計劃變更那這個部分連同都市計劃變更也就是說如果修了這個法之後有可能未來縣市政府由離島的縣市政府他就可以處理了那他同意了重大建設都市計劃他也要求由地方政府就可以同意了哇 這個有他的危險度存在"},{"start":2764.93,"end":2787.663,"text":"所以我覺得這個一定要說清楚講明白不是現在我們的政府沒有做現在的政府就有一套的SOP對於重大建設計畫不要忘了這四個字什麼叫重大建設計畫也就是會牽扯到整個這個縣市發展甚至是國家發展的一個高度位階叫重大計畫"},{"start":2788.664,"end":2804.614,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具 «離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案﹚立法院第十三條條文修正草案﹚立法院第十三條條"},{"start":2814.64,"end":2828.162,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條及第七條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條之一條文修正�"},{"start":2842.705,"end":2855.478,"text":"草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文"},{"start":2864.045,"end":2865.686,"text":"條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":2889.98,"end":2912.539,"text":"雖然台澎金馬不大但是顯然從剛才的答詢就可以知道對離島像金門、澎湖、連江顯然這個的了解或是甚至去的機會都是很少的所以在這樣的一個情形之下我們就是說國發會"},{"start":2915.791,"end":2937.613,"text":"是不是你們從這個條文陳玉珍所提的修正條文去思考怎麼樣會修得更好假設我們給地方政府三個縣政府能夠提報的機會然後你們來核定由中央來核定"},{"start":2938.268,"end":2939.59,"text":"條例第十三條提出修正的意見,能夠達到更好。」以上。"},{"start":2953.82,"end":2956.141,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案 案 。"},{"start":2981.385,"end":2984.007,"text":"三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查"},{"start":3007.126,"end":3008.367,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":3020.595,"end":3027.685,"text":"陳玉珍等18人擬具 «離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案 第十三條及第七條之一條文修正草案案案 第十三條"},{"start":3037.918,"end":3058.884,"text":"重大投資建設計畫：他的程序是有還是一樣由縣市政府這邊提出來出審之後會由中央目的事業主管機關這邊複合之後送到送到我們行政院的離島建設指導委員會再去做最後的討論那這個討論的好處是說有一些跨部會的事項可以在這裡做處理請問你這幾項到底現在在進行的有幾項現在目前為止"},{"start":3069.009,"end":3069.69,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3075.979,"end":3079.142,"text":"對,哪個處?你是哪個處?經濟發展嗎?是本會國土處。國土處,就是我們離島處,國土區域離島處,黃處長。對。你這十幾項,哪幾項還在進行?跟委員報告,像金門大橋這個是已經完成了,那其他的?我剛問你是這三年,金門大橋是十幾年前的。對。"},{"start":3098.817,"end":3099.857,"text":"三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3123.769,"end":3143.338,"text":"所以最近的金門重大建設是十二年前的這十二年來都金門都不需要任何重大建設不要說我們有沒有我們有沒有問一下主委好不好那地方政府有沒有送什麼案子上來的要不要說明 處長說明一下啦好不好他有送過來的案子嗎我想"},{"start":3144.758,"end":3162.48,"text":"我想陳委員你提的是非常好的就是說其實離島的發展是我的工作一部分那我是比較建議的方式是不是我們可以大家來共同的合作對於你這邊有什麼樣的案子那我們來配合或者是說我們可以共同來商議如何規劃"},{"start":3163.681,"end":3164.242,"text":"三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3181.354,"end":3181.834,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3198.461,"end":3198.941,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3218.766,"end":3236.992,"text":"對這五年請問他反問嘛說這五年金門有什麼動態建設那我們反問因為這個部分我們的程序就是由地方政府送出嘛出什麼然後中央事業目的主委機關來審定行政院來考量國家的一個政策跟目標嘛"},{"start":3237.732,"end":3238.453,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3264.494,"end":3269.217,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案．第十三條條文修正草案．第十三條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3289.162,"end":3315.257,"text":"主席還有主委還有各位同仁我想我還是建議第一我先講一下我覺得立委跟主委之間大家其實還是相互尊重我覺得態度上其實還是可以再和緩一點就是不要過於激烈的一些語言特別如果涉及到對人身我認為這樣不太好我覺得主委新上任但是我覺得對他還是有基本的尊重我還是大家互相理性的討論比較好"},{"start":3316.338,"end":3342.306,"text":"第二、這個部分我還是請國發會去整體把它整理出來好不好就是這幾年來除了當陳委員關心到的中央有同意的做的以外那另外地方政府到底各個地方政府有送上來的哪些案件也讓大家知道一下好不好就是說有沒有送那送到哪些那壞哪些有准哪些沒有准也讓大家知道一下作為一個討論修法的一個依據那我再來我還是建議這樣具有"},{"start":3344.087,"end":3348.341,"text":"大家沒有達到共識的一個條文的話我還是建議保留在委員會裡面討論,比較妥善。謝謝。"},{"start":3350.95,"end":3375.067,"text":"好,那這個第三條的部分委員已經經過二輪的討論詢問那也請國畫會這邊你們幕僚趕快去將委員所提出的待會我們最後再返回來再來處理第三條的部分本期就是希望我們在委員會要充分討論如果真的"},{"start":3377.228,"end":3394.538,"text":"沒有辦法達成共識,我們才保留送協商。」所以今天是一個很好、良善的一個討論方式。那請你們把它做公費。等一下再做決定。接下來我們針對於第五條。第五條的部分請行政部門。第五條請行政部門說明。同不同意?"},{"start":3406.991,"end":3417.88,"text":"第五條其實我們原來的第15項裡面的其他其實已經涵蓋本次修的案的內容所以基本上我們尊重委員會的決議"},{"start":3420.759,"end":3429.541,"text":"行政部門同意第五條的這個部分請問,那其他委員,那行政部門跟陳玉珍委員的提案有,都同意,那是不是我們這一條就照這個行政,照陳玉珍委員第五條修正。"},{"start":3449.893,"end":3454.678,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3473.74,"end":3499.434,"text":"主席、各位委員我還是要再次提醒委員會中心主義是以委員會的發言為準委員會的委員才是核心部門的意見都是給委員參考特別是本會、本委員會、經濟委員才是具有關鍵的因素委員會中心主義的精神是這樣所以我希望大家還是再次回到我們的發言跟我們的討論其實還是要尊重"},{"start":3500.434,"end":3528.661,"text":"這個我還是要請教一下這個冰葬設施的部分跟原來沒有列上到底有什麼樣的差別就是可不可以請國發會更清楚的說明如果就新的修正條文就陳玉珍委員修正的條文跟原來現行的條文會有什麼樣的不同請國發會主委或者處長再詳細說明好不好待會一併好不好我們因為還有其他的委員接下來我們請誰邱映穎委員然後再來陳廷飛委員"},{"start":3530.592,"end":3553.898,"text":"我還是要請教一下,謝謝主席,我還是要請教一下這個現行法裡頭很多基礎的設施其實都已經包含在內了嘛那原來我們的那個離島綜合建設實施方案裡面也都有了為什麼要單獨把消防建設跟殯葬設施把它拉出來那這個你們國發會同意的理由是什麼"},{"start":3555.302,"end":3556.342,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":3581.75,"end":3609.264,"text":"還是還有其他?那如果說這樣子的話因為你其他是可以涵蓋更多那你再把它點出這兩樣那是不是我們更應該詳細討論跟國發會因為這個都是委員的版本啊行政院國發會還沒有版本啊那是不是國發會應該提出它的版本說那好如果要正面表列的話那真的是只有消防嗎那只有這個兵杖嗎一定不止啊可能還有更多啊"},{"start":3609.824,"end":3637.264,"text":"所以我覺得如果我們要正面表列的話那就乾脆我們就把這個案子保留下來好好討論等國發會把他們的版本送進來我們再來討論啊那要正面表列剛好可以好好跟我們離島的委員討論一下到底我們差了哪幾樣要正面表列的用修教育制修到好不要安利利利的讓嘛所以我認為這樣子才是互相的尊重"},{"start":3639.025,"end":3649.518,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請發言我們這個修法或是立法是我們立法委員的職權"},{"start":3652.472,"end":3680.512,"text":"那很多的法案未必都是一定要這個行政部門的就是行政院的版本不一定要了這個是我們過去這麼多年來所通過的法例案很多都沒有行政院的甚至一個新的法案沒有行政院版本然後在立法院三度通過的也就好幾個案例了"},{"start":3681.232,"end":3704.353,"text":"那我們就以這一條條文來講這個應該就是建議大家能夠就事實面就離島第七的實際的需求來去考量我們就看這個第十二款原來的第十二款現行條文的第十二款"},{"start":3705.442,"end":3728.849,"text":"天然災害防治及濫障、濫墾、濫建之改善。」現在要陳玉珍委員把他信用核修正在第十三款災害防救、濫障設施及濫障行為之改善。所以之前的是濫障、濫墾之改善。因為這個離島建設條例"},{"start":3735.362,"end":3736.183,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":3765.322,"end":3771.647,"text":"草案．一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案．一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":3789.297,"end":3797.58,"text":"陳玉珍委員最後請行政部門謝謝我跟這個也跟我們委員會報告因為委員因為也不理解我剛一直強調這些意見都是三個離島縣政府所綜合開過會提出來的綜合意見"},{"start":3803.582,"end":3826.388,"text":"那我特別問金美先生說這個修改的意義在哪裡?金美先生就有回覆有特別的跟我回覆說這個如果離島建設條例沒有將消防建設列為離島綜合建設實施方案因載明之內容則各離島縣政府亦將消防建設納入離島中間計畫與法務局不容易獲准也不是不會你們事實上有給但他們希望明文化像本縣第六期12到15年離島"},{"start":3829.109,"end":3843.917,"text":"綜合建設十方就沒有消防建設項目就沒有辦法完善離島地區的消防建設所以是要確保說消防建設是列在裡頭當然有時候你們會給有時候你們不會給他們要確保那我知道你們跟我回覆說你們都會給所以他們希望把它"},{"start":3845.138,"end":3859.469,"text":"為了確保金門地區居民生命財產安全,所以希望在這一條、第五條針對消防建設項目有必要性。」這個像爭議是很小的,這個都是為了地區的消防的建設,然後居民的生命財產安全。"},{"start":3860.575,"end":3861.015,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3895.859,"end":3896.099,"text":"草案。"},{"start":3902.17,"end":3920.477,"text":"關於我們賴委員提的就是說這幾年這個這個我們我們有什麼版本還有我們陳委員提到我先說明一下第一個是原來我的瞭解是這樣因為消防建設原來我們就很支持都有在做了那所以呢"},{"start":3921.378,"end":3947.421,"text":"當時拱竹委認為這是可以放進來的那我唯一其實我坦白講我自己覺得很奇怪的一件事是濫墾跟濫建為什麼要從這個條文拿掉那是不是我們不重視濫墾或濫建呢那我們的同仁後來跟我講說因為在第16項的其他還是就是新修法的第16項其他我們還是可以把這個行為納進來所以呢還是可以去堵掉這些的行為所以呢因為其他的解釋是比較大的那"},{"start":3948.101,"end":3971.706,"text":"那我才會剛剛才會講說其實這個條文的修改其實有其他大概都可以涵蓋所以我們才用這個方式就是尊重原來委員會的上次協調的決議是這個緣故那這個是行政部門說明沒關係我們慢慢來行政部門的說明那行政部門說明完原則他支持這個陳玉珍委員的提案那來"},{"start":3973.544,"end":3976.387,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":3998.496,"end":3999.397,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4019.64,"end":4024.521,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":4048.602,"end":4076.379,"text":"主席各位委員我想這一條一樣其他部分其實在整個實行上面其實就可以含瓜進來那你去動這樣的條文事實上也都有啦剛聽起來消防建設也都有給你補助的話那我認為維持現行條文就可以達到這樣的一個效果更何況是如果我們現在把那個濫墾跟濫建拿掉的話會不會讓社會各界去擔憂說為什麼立法院或經濟委員會為什麼要把"},{"start":4077.839,"end":4100.673,"text":"懶懶懶賤的改善要拿掉是不是懶懶懶賤的改善不要做了我認為法會引發一些不必要的一些困擾所以我是建議就維持現行法其實該做的都還是可以做頂多就做一些附帶決議就是對於這個消防的建設還是請這個中央這邊還能夠持續給予支持我認為這樣子其實應該比較妥善一點謝謝賴議員委員這樣我們請陳玉珍委員請陳廷輝委員請做準備"},{"start":4105.109,"end":4119.128,"text":"消防建設條例第十二至一百一十五年就沒有消防建設的項目,所以他們希望民運化。那剛剛國外說的這個就是拿掉什麼濫墾濫墾,各位委員擔心的,我也同意。"},{"start":4119.548,"end":4148.152,"text":"所以我覺得我們可以修我覺得我們可以把這個第十三條因為我們是把這個本來是天然本來把天然災害防治災害我們改成防救嘛我們就我們改這個然後鏈障設施本來是那個沒有寫到殯障設施那加進來以後濫墾濫建我們現在只留下濫障那我同意我認為也要把濫墾跟濫建加回來這樣就可以了這樣不會讓人家誤會說我們要放好想什麼濫墾濫建不放我們把字再修正回來"},{"start":4148.672,"end":4167.084,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條條文修正草案：立法院第十三"},{"start":4173.528,"end":4198.034,"text":"是因為我們從基層要很清楚我們一般行政部門的想法跟態度你今天列了這兩個好那是不是以後你今天重視這兩個那其他他可能在這個基層承辦人員就說那這兩個已經列進去正面表列了那其他的部分反正這個我們就把它限縮起來這個會有一個很危險的"},{"start":4199.474,"end":4221.491,"text":"包括剛剛你看陳正遠在我們大提案之後也認為說這個濫墾濫竊是可以把它放回來的然後呢我們也認為說你把天然災災害防治的部分把它改成是災害防救天然災害跟所謂災害防救是不一樣的喔是完全不一樣的喔"},{"start":4222.151,"end":4239.786,"text":"所以我覺得這個是要有討論的空間我們不是反對而是我們認為修法既然大家都說哇可能在過去這個法已經隔了那麼久沒有修好既然要修我們就一次把它討論到好修到好"},{"start":4240.447,"end":4241.027,"text":"三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4259.02,"end":4279.581,"text":"不要放在其他這麼廣闊的範圍而且要小心是如果你納入到正面表列有可能這基層人員你修了一次法之後會把自己的各縣市政府的一個他的態度會說得更緊因為他會說這就不重要所以不需要正面表列"},{"start":4280.362,"end":4292.586,"text":"那我覺得這個反而我們把他埋了一個炸彈在那裡所以我認為我們要負責任修法是我們立法委員的職責沒錯所以我們認為更應該要更謹慎態度要修請國發會主委請國發會相關單位去跟三個先離島的縣政府"},{"start":4300.609,"end":4301.99,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正"},{"start":4316.081,"end":4340.286,"text":"有漏網之魚。」我們的態度是這個樣子,我們沒有反對,我要再次強調,我們沒有反對,但是我們認為應該要更嚴謹,既然要正面表列,就更嚴謹地把離島縣政府他們的態度真的了解清楚放進來。好,接下來陳經理委員繼續請任委員,任委員後面請曾天才委員請準備。"},{"start":4341.82,"end":4357.181,"text":"好 謝謝主席、各位委員其實我們來看整個這個原來的條文裡面其實是不管是就整個大象的包括基礎建設、產業建設、教育建設、文化建設、交通建設、醫療建設、觀光建設、警政建設"},{"start":4357.602,"end":4358.964,"text":"全體委員會第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":4376.998,"end":4396.6,"text":"這個殯葬設施在我看來他有可能是會是在基礎建設裡面也有可能是在某個裡面那我認為那個本來就應該放在裡面就可以做了如果你單獨把它拉出來反倒會顯得很突兀那如果照這個要拉那是不是每個都要拉每個都要修那拉進來那拉進來的話這個法恐怕就會變得很這個他的整個定義不會變得很複雜"},{"start":4398.081,"end":4416.378,"text":"所以我是建議還是照原條文那另外原條文裡面的天然災害防治我認為這樣的用詞比災害防救來得更好一些就後續因為這個是一個訂定一個計畫跟後續的實施方案那更重要是對於天然災害的防治工作怎麼來做比較好"},{"start":4416.798,"end":4433.173,"text":"那至於救的部分本來在例行上災害防救法的人本來該怎麼救都怎麼救我認為反倒是這樣會更清楚地定義我們在這個計畫當中應該做怎麼樣的一個天然災害防治的工作我認為這個反而會更加清楚所以我是比較建議維持原先的條文會比較妥善一點"},{"start":4433.963,"end":4434.904,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4451.948,"end":4473.266,"text":"剛才這個修正條根據陳玉珍委員的說明是因為三個縣的縣政府他一個匯報一個匯報所建議的這個案子所以我們從這個匯報所建議的地方的名義"},{"start":4475.668,"end":4478.269,"text":"條例第十三條及第七條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4489.861,"end":4493.883,"text":"條例第十三條及第七條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":4513.934,"end":4540.279,"text":"那至於消防建設,一定是三個縣政府認為需要特別去強化所以我是希望建議我們委員會能夠支持消防建設那至於殯葬設施殯葬設施這個部分因為原來的部分只有談濫葬的改善濫葬的改善"},{"start":4543.113,"end":4545.054,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4561.91,"end":4578.289,"text":"相關的殯儀館還有相關的這些納古堂塔所以這個都是比較積極性的我是建議我們委員會能夠給予支持那至於天然災害防治"},{"start":4579.693,"end":4582.074,"text":"之改善,天然災害防治之改善,"},{"start":4597.978,"end":4599.34,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4612.088,"end":4627.887,"text":"陳珍王王我們請行政部門如果要發言我們在第三輪發言謝謝因為我不知道這個因為這幾位都是執行室的這個委員要不瞭解這個像我們離島像我們的消防局是很晚才設立的以前也沒有消防局就是附在警察局裡頭後面才設立然後"},{"start":4629.369,"end":4630.789,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續審查"},{"start":4651.736,"end":4656.079,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例"},{"start":4670.45,"end":4671.451,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4685.236,"end":4685.697,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4704.241,"end":4706.243,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":4721.863,"end":4722.544,"text":"條例第十三條及第七條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4741.184,"end":4744.085,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案件 條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案件 條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案件 條例第十三條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4763.57,"end":4780.702,"text":"那就是說要增加靈堂設施就是相關的這些殯葬設施都要增加所以我們民政局這邊才會希望說這個殯葬設施要請你們這邊大力協助請中央大力協助這個要一風一蜀嘛一風一蜀就需要有設施的改善一些地方這個納古塔的設計我們也沒有這個這個東西也比較少"},{"start":4782.904,"end":4783.344,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":4805.057,"end":4818.571,"text":"不要說剛剛陳玉珍說再回到什麼地方幹嘛這一天每一條我相信地方政府都已經上公文上來了就是上到你們都沒有反應所以才會說請立法院在這邊提案好那我們再請行政部門"},{"start":4822.26,"end":4843.794,"text":"我先抱歉因為我之前得到訊息以為這是最後一次但是看起來可討論空間的話我想表達我個人意見那第一個這個法條的部分我們回去研究一下我們這個法條訂定的時間因為早年警政跟消防是一體的那我們去研究看看是不是這個法條訂的時間當時沒有考慮到現在警政跟消防的分開"},{"start":4844.815,"end":4867.124,"text":"但是第十二條原法第十二條是天然災害防治及濫藏濫墾濫建之改善。就是說因為濫藏濫墾濫建造成這個天然災害的時候要去改善它但是我們如果回到第十三條來看的話呢這個原意有一點消失但是濫藏設施應該不會比較難存在這種"},{"start":4868.004,"end":4872.367,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":4896.362,"end":4905.694,"text":"這個判斷的部分。這個是我以我個人來講我想表達一下我的看法。好謝謝主席齁。我剛本來其實是想說"},{"start":4913.365,"end":4920.748,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11屆第12會期經濟委員會"},{"start":4938.891,"end":4961.986,"text":"其他縣市為什麼不可以?」我覺得這個就有一點奇怪,邏輯上是有一點奇怪。但是如果說你把它,原來我們是要改善所謂的濫藏、濫墾、濫建,這些做一些建設上面整體規劃上,離島的整體規劃上面的這些改善,那我覺得是很OK的啊,整個改善的計畫裡頭,"},{"start":4963.487,"end":4992.311,"text":"除了濫墾濫葬濫建以外我們還會政府還會補充做一些什麼東西但如果說照剛剛陳玉珍委員的那個解釋你把這個東西拿來做禮廳靈堂做殯儀館你就明文寫在這裡直接做這個東西那我就想請教那為什麼離島可以?如果這樣子過的話為什麼離島可以?台中市可不可以?高雄市可不可以?台南市可不可以?嘉義縣可不可以?"},{"start":4994.267,"end":5019.12,"text":"這算重大建設嗎?就直接放在離島保安條例裡頭。我覺得這個就怪了啦,邏輯上就怪了啦。所以我其實建議就是說剛剛主委您講到那個警政消防是不是警政消防是議題,過去我們的認知都是這樣,沒錯。所以要不要把警政加上消防這個是可以討論,我覺得這個我可以接受,可以支持。但如果後面那個東西把它"},{"start":5020.16,"end":5041.125,"text":"很清楚的寫說我就是要蓋禮廳、靈堂、要蓋殯儀館蓋火葬場這個變成是重大建設的話我覺得這個是地方政府的職權啊那這回到前面來講我們前面為什麼反對說由地方政府直接去執行你就會變成很多地方政府該做的事情他把它變成重大建設然後要你中央來買單"},{"start":5043.635,"end":5047.436,"text":"草案案件、草案案件、草案案件、草案案件、草案案件、草案案件、草案案件"},{"start":5063.171,"end":5078.719,"text":"我們當然是要補助給離島因為他的困難他的建設很多東西是中央要協助他去做可是你不能把一些很基礎的建設變成都是中央的責任或者是你地方政府亂報一些以後你清水溝做排水溝建置路燈你都變成是重大建設"},{"start":5087.782,"end":5093.69,"text":"整個離島建設條例就亂了套啦,所以我是反對用這樣子的方式去去做修訂了。」"},{"start":5100.725,"end":5118.28,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位還有主委我想所有的委員會裡面討論的這個案件送出去其實都代表著委員會那我認為還是每一個用詞跟處理都還是要謹慎而且是委員會中心主義如果你委員會沒有好好的審查"},{"start":5118.82,"end":5141.926,"text":"我更不期待在議員會或在這個草引擎上會有更細緻的討論我認為絕對不會有所以我認為這件事情既然出去代表了經濟委員會的門面、面子的話那就應該好好審了那我的看法是這樣裡面的剛剛也提到所有的這些基礎建設各項建設都定在裡面了你獨獨把一個殯葬設施放在這邊這個體制上非常的奇怪"},{"start":5143.126,"end":5167.583,"text":"我認為你要嘛,你要放就全放,乾脆就全放,但是全放其實並不妥適啦,因為各項一些建設,我認為其實這裡面所談到的都是一些大項,基礎建設、產業建設、教育建設,而殯葬設施也納在其中當中一項,我認為這樣定比較清楚,也比較好,如果你要把每一個都列的話,那幾乎會列得非常的廣泛,我認為那不列的難道他不適用我覺得有重要嗎?"},{"start":5168.383,"end":5192.177,"text":"事實上他也一樣,他可能在教育裡面被拉到,比如說教育建設也許他也許有圖書館也許有什麼我不知道,但是也許也有,所以我說這個應該要整體來做思考。那至於消防建設的部分,我認為這個當然也重要啦,但是能不能用比較簡單,也許是用訂進來還是用警消的建設等等,怎麼樣方法進來可以,我覺得這個看起來比較像大面向上的問題是可以的齁。"},{"start":5192.737,"end":5203.666,"text":"但是如果在冰上設施我是建議不要放啦因為我認為放進來反倒會他一樣可以做在其他的基礎建設、各項建設一樣可以做但你放進來在體制上會非常的奇怪"},{"start":5206.112,"end":5233.089,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請陳玉珍委員陳玉珍委員好我們請鄭天才委員請準備我們等鄭天才委員這個發言結束我們就來處理謝謝我剛剛聽了這個邱委員的發言以後我覺得我真的還真的要真的好好的解釋一下我想他們對於離島實在是真的超級不了解來第一個我們這樣現在討論的是第五條我們討論第五條不是在討論重大建設當然是第三條是"},{"start":5234.37,"end":5261.14,"text":"綜合的條文。但第五條講的是離島綜合建設因為我們離島有四年一期的綜合建設計畫這個應該國安會知道那每一次就要先列出來那消防建設會要求被希望列進來就是因為這1、2到1、5你們就沒有給我們消防建設的相關的這個計畫沒有給我們所以消防局才會提出這個要求那我也同意說如果你們認為單面消防不好那你們寫警政消防我也可以接受反正消防建設有在裡頭消防局"},{"start":5261.58,"end":5264.962,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。 bicynman的納古塔基本上接近不用收錢政府做的。政府因為鼓勵以風以鼠盡量不要土葬。他加納古塔好像"},{"start":5285.194,"end":5307.408,"text":"一年才一千來兩、七百來一千反正就非常少千元以內就是千元的這種非常非常少所以根本沒有任何一個民間業者沒有任何一個人會去金門做這種相關的這種冰上的設施的投資所以這部分需要政府來做沒有任何的民間業者當地也不會外來的不會去做不會做任何更何況金門的這種民風比較不一樣大家對這個當然算是賢樂措施的所以金門縣政府當時自己在"},{"start":5314.733,"end":5322.238,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條"},{"start":5341.71,"end":5359.077,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":5372.07,"end":5373.491,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":5394.25,"end":5419.065,"text":"國立金門大學的相關計劃是我們金門縣提出來向我們金門縣政府申請補助。這個部立金門醫院金門縣政府自己提出留任獎金因為怕這個醫生跟護士不願意留在金門我們為了讓有醫生護士留任只好自己出錢請這些醫生護士留在金門我們另外發獎金所以不是什麼東西你如果要說什麼東西都裝馬單我現在金門人都聽不下去了大部分錢都是我們自己出的我們只是希望說我們自己出錢的同時"},{"start":5420.106,"end":5421.167,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":5442.339,"end":5450.743,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、第十三條條文修正草案案件、"},{"start":5472.301,"end":5494.481,"text":"第五條他最主要就是縣市主管機關因依據縣市綜合發展計畫擬定四年一期之離島綜合建設實施方案其內容如下所以這個主要就是縣市政府"},{"start":5495.643,"end":5501.876,"text":"先是政府也就是說三個離島的縣政府所以我建議這個我們委員"},{"start":5504.309,"end":5509.971,"text":"三條條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5534.69,"end":5554.748,"text":"跟主委說明我是老公務員30年公務員我民國70年開始當公務員民國76年主辦在台灣省政府社會處主辦殯葬設施的業務我們那個年代"},{"start":5557.992,"end":5583.119,"text":"火葬場或是殯儀館或是納骨堂塔都是要去拜託把我早期的棍木公園化錢很多內政部補助到省政府社會處的錢很多但是沒有人要執行的鄉鎮公所、縣政府不要執行的因為那個都市會你要蓋個殯儀館"},{"start":5585.097,"end":5596.3,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5614.403,"end":5625.469,"text":"主要是都會區,所以現在都會區之所以火化廠也有了,殯儀館但是在臺北市新北市還是欠接這個殯儀館"},{"start":5629.433,"end":5645.226,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：第十四條條文修正草案：第十五條條文修正草案：第十六條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":5646.387,"end":5664.223,"text":"所以這個部分我是建議大家冰葬設施有它的必要性現在在都會區像新北市的那個冰醫館我都認為要打下去到公園下面的成為一個現在都欠缺了"},{"start":5664.804,"end":5668.065,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 。關於陳玉珍委員提出第五條,"},{"start":5693.813,"end":5716.28,"text":"請大家注意,它是依據縣市綜合發展計劃。綜合發展計劃,所謂失聯定的議題,其實這個沒有好很大的一個證明。如果你覺得都跟消防建設一樣,綜合計劃跟我們島內的差不多一樣,都要有配額款才能做。"},{"start":5717.54,"end":5743.445,"text":"那再來這邊講到殯葬設施看要不要在立法說明裡面把殯葬收施當為基礎建設也可以如果那邊說明就不用特別綠但是主委這個主要是內政部主管的其實現在的錢很多但是內政部因為這個是嫌惡設施設在這個裡設在那個村大家都在抗爭"},{"start":5744.929,"end":5765.665,"text":"但是這個是民主化進步國家應該走的路線所以殯葬設施裡面看要把它放在基礎設施裡面在立法說明裡面包含著殯葬設施這樣的一個字跡在這邊還是特別把它放下去放下去有個謝啦"},{"start":5766.966,"end":5770.109,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具〈離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5782.561,"end":5805.403,"text":"所以我覺得陳玉珍委員提出來他只要在綜合建設實施發展計畫裡面我們願意給他支持離島的我們要多關心一下因為他普通來氣交通經費資源都比較少我希望這邊啊能多多的支持我們這個離島建設尤其離島委員所提出來的謝謝"},{"start":5807.134,"end":5808.976,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":5827.674,"end":5839.124,"text":"行政部門支持提案委員,我們有委員是還有其他的意見。我們討論到現在大概一個鐘頭,終結大家的意見。第一個,似乎大家都支持離島。"},{"start":5853.697,"end":5857.98,"text":"離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5881.317,"end":5895.666,"text":"但是怎麼還是在原來的這個警政合一、警消合一,沒有把它拉開,沒有拉開。那這個的部分呢在剛剛提案委員也同意,如果在警消,因為原本就有這個警政在第十條裡頭,如果警消在一起,"},{"start":5904.385,"end":5927.412,"text":"對,這個體安委員也同意那再來就是我們第十三原本的第十二款跟體安委員的第十三款那這個部分各位委員因為今天內政部包括的這個宗教師他也在這裡到底殯葬設施跟什麼爛梗、爛柵、爛劍跟現在的社會符合以前離島條例沒人在揮劃的都土種的那現在時事不一樣了"},{"start":5931.673,"end":5933.794,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":5964.056,"end":5970.118,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案的第十三條條文修正草案的第十三條條文修正草案的第十三條條文修正草案的第十三條條"},{"start":5981.682,"end":6009.576,"text":"理導的一個綜合計畫裡面事實上殯葬設施都有在做補助所以剛剛國防會是說他弄其他的方式但是至於殯葬設施要不要放裡面這個內政部尊重委員會的決定所以現在國防會也在做來我們交房署交房署哪一位在哪裡交房署哪一個"},{"start":6011.446,"end":6037.461,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那有關消防署的部分那對於條文裡面新增加消防設施那本署也尊重主管機關跟大院的審議結果那這邊附帶報告就是說本署在84年3月1號成立那後續各縣市陸陸續續的成立那金門是在89年5月9號成立消防局那以上報告謝謝"},{"start":6038.78,"end":6039.964,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":6042.179,"end":6070.038,"text":"好,我想消防的部分大家經過這樣的討論應該是比較就是放進來應該是大家覺得比較OK的齁但是那個殯葬設施我還是建議就是因為單獨列這個的話那其他的是不是各項細項都要列我認為其實在法的體力上就殯葬設施其實還是都有支持啦齁地方政府有送上來還是都有支持用其他的也都可以甚至有其他別的一些設施的項目也是用其他的那我是建議在法的體力上不要單獨納進這一個啦齁一樣會做這件事情"},{"start":6072.339,"end":6100.613,"text":"另外我還是在建議,因為今天陳議員一直提到各縣市、離島的縣市政府一直有反應意見。我不知道國發會有沒有跟這些縣市政府做過一些溝通。我也希望你們,因為金主委剛上任,我也希望你們再去跟召集一下幾個相關的離島的縣市,聽聽看他們的需求,然後甚至你們擬出更好的方案,就是說你們認為怎麼做。如果你們跟地方政府能夠找到一個更好的方案,再回到委員會來大家討論,這樣更能夠聚焦,不然"},{"start":6101.013,"end":6123.03,"text":"都是由陳玉珍委員好像來代表那個那今天也沒有邀請地方離島的縣市來列席所以我們也無從去了解到底爭執點在哪個地方我會建議這個案這個保留在委員會內那經過國發會跟縣市政府特別是離島的縣市政府再溝通之後再回來委員會再報告我認為這樣的立法會比較周延也符合委員會中心主義的精神"},{"start":6123.57,"end":6131.819,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案件、離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件、離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件、離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件、離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":6138.687,"end":6159.755,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條之一條文修正"},{"start":6162.277,"end":6177.802,"text":"來來警消還是警政來其實用警消也達到那個效果警消建設大概就警政跟消防了嘛警消就廣義來講就是警政跟消防法律文字法律文字通常是怎麼寫好像沒有寫警消建設警政跟消防對警政跟消防警政跟消防"},{"start":6179.383,"end":6180.685,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6201.353,"end":6222.325,"text":"這個達成共識,我們就把陳玉珍委員的第十一款刪除,並在第十款原條文的第十款警政頓耗消防建設。接下來就是天安委員第十三款的部分,原先的第十二款天然災害跟災害"},{"start":6223.306,"end":6248.972,"text":"天然災害及災害、還有防救及防治、還有一個就是殯葬設施要不要放進來。基本上就是在濫墾濫建方面已經同意不修正。請教各位委員,我們針對於天然災害及災害這兩個字的當然災害它是更廣,天然它是限縮在那裡。請教各位委員。"},{"start":6255.145,"end":6257.626,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":6288.192,"end":6312.772,"text":"簽證設施現在一般在每一個鄉鎮都是當作一個基礎建設我覺得在立法院裡面包含著簽證設施這樣子會比較有那個不然你單單換了一個簽證設施陳昌明委員的意思是在第三款裡頭在立法說明上把他給列明立法說明說明在說明第三款裡頭"},{"start":6314.074,"end":6316.376,"text":"條例第十二條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6335.274,"end":6351.069,"text":"就是原來條文第十二款天然兩個字拿掉災害保留防治改為防救這個然後及後面都一樣後面照原條文然後在第三款的部分律法說明的裡頭基礎設施裡面說明這個"},{"start":6358.203,"end":6382.185,"text":"冰葬設施,包含冰葬設施,在立法說明第三款裡頭。」好嗎?好,那我們非常感謝我們所有的委員喔這個是創下我們這個立法院在立法當中呢大家非常良心喔,非常良善,充分溝通,這個就是立法院的精神經濟委員會是超優的委員會喔,我要謝謝"},{"start":6383.126,"end":6401.022,"text":"所有的委員也謝謝所有的行政部門充分的說明清楚那我們第五條就照剛剛所共同討論的結論那文修方面請這議事主任再調整我們修正通過來接下來我們第七條來第七條行政部門"},{"start":6406.01,"end":6422.02,"text":"關於第七條跟前面第三條其實是比較類似,過去都是由中央規劃,但是地方可以提出來,然後經過中央的審議一起共同的去修正。那現在的修正方式多了一個地方是屬於縣市綜合發展計畫,離島綜合"},{"start":6424.562,"end":6451.182,"text":"建設實施方案所列之計畫及縣市主管政策上推動或輔導之建設由縣市政府另訂之。」那這個另訂之會影響到整個國家總體規劃所以我們還是建議用以往的方式共同協商來透過這個計畫上來以後大家共同來調整會比較好所以我們認為不宜爭裂關於這個條文"},{"start":6454.246,"end":6463.841,"text":"那第二個部分是談到國家公園的計畫,原則上我們尊重內政部,我想請內政部是不是表達一下他們對於這個國家公園的部分有沒有什麼看法?"},{"start":6464.602,"end":6480.737,"text":"好,來,那就先暫停一下。主席的說明,因為第七條跟第三條,最重要的精神就是說縣市政府要不要納在裡面。本席也認為這個我們必須要在,因為兩方的爭議還蠻大。"},{"start":6484.58,"end":6486.681,"text":"條例第七條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6512.878,"end":6539.463,"text":"都市計劃農業區的這個部分由縣市政府另定之。」那這個提案委員這個也是跟第三條也一樣就是地方政府要不要納入那你們先不要說明你們再去討論一下好不好我們隨後再來好在第七條之一我們保留待會第二輪再來那第四我們委員會第十條第十條請行政部門"},{"start":6543.411,"end":6546.401,"text":"免徵營業稅的部分。」我們請財政部次長。"},{"start":6552.198,"end":6573.686,"text":"謝謝委員還有主席基本上第十條因為陳玉珍委員是建議說在第一項的後段加一個就是未符合免徵營業稅條件的銷售貨物或勞務的營利事業或者是營業人他可以這個營利事業所得稅的部分可以減徵25%然後另外就是在第三項的部分"},{"start":6574.246,"end":6575.087,"text":"條例第十條的後段"},{"start":6595.541,"end":6596.962,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 條例第十三條"},{"start":6611.172,"end":6638.928,"text":"其實這個是對我們這個促進離島的觀光的旅客在當地的消費是給予相當的優惠而且這個其實是對於當地的營業人已經提供了非常適切的優惠措施那至於後段如果加了一個這個不符合條件的營業人反而可以享受營利事業所得稅的減徵其實這個是很矛盾的一個規定因為我們本來就是希望去符合條件你可以享受營業稅的減免"},{"start":6640.129,"end":6652.295,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：第二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：第二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：第二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：第三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條條文修正草案：第四、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三"},{"start":6659.079,"end":6664.98,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":6686.124,"end":6691.211,"text":"或者是來去補助這些特定的營業人因為他就是對於不符合條件的營業人反而給他減徵的優惠這樣其實是一個違反租稅公平和有中立性的這個規定所以我們是認為這個條文這樣的徵定是不是非常妥適的"},{"start":6703.067,"end":6728.918,"text":"然後至於第三項對於公用事業的營業人說可以這個進口的這個貨物或勞務的話可以免徵營業稅跟關稅首先我們要講說其實在我們的第二項裡面對於離島地區他們這些營業人進口或者是銷售這些這個商品本來就可以免徵關稅了所以公用事業這部分似乎不需要在這個地方另外訂定他可以在我們這個第二項的免徵關稅的範圍裡面"},{"start":6730.839,"end":6732.78,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":6757.33,"end":6768.739,"text":"那現在因為進口的水本來就沒有關稅本來就是零稅率那現在就是可能有營業稅的負擔但是這個營業稅的負擔因為我們在離島建設條例第十四條裡面本身也有規定就是說對於離島地區的水、電我們這些就是要照跟本島的這個費率一樣來徵收但是如果說進門地區像進門水廠"},{"start":6782.25,"end":6785.033,"text":"如果因為負擔了這個營業稅然後它產生了虧損的話其實目前第十四條已經有規定就是可以由我們的這個經濟部水利署來編列預算來填補這個虧損來彌補這個虧損而且現在也就在做"},{"start":6798.368,"end":6802.411,"text":"那而且這個我知道委員非常關心這個事情而且之前我們也在那個離島地區開了一個跨縣式的會議那當時在就是4月19號的時候也做成決議就是委員就覺得說這個經濟部水利署好像填補的時間拖得太慢所以那時候在會議上也有決議就是說要我們經濟部去修正這個補助辦法"},{"start":6825.069,"end":6838.152,"text":"能夠盡快把這個時間縮短讓這個填補能夠盡快能夠彌補這個損失給這個給金門縣政府這樣的話這個問題就可以解決所以我們是覺得這一條似乎也沒有增訂的必要以上說明謝謝說明我們有賴立文委員然後邱英文再來陳玉珍委員"},{"start":6848.749,"end":6877.187,"text":"好 謝謝主席、各位委員還有財政部跟國安會的同仁我想這一條一樣就是看來有很多的部分就是跟地方跟中央之間的那我認為其實看來還有許多需要地方政府要做溝通的第一條顯然有些是影響到整個銀索銀索稅的部分而且是全台灣的適用的部分這個應該要去跟地方政府做更多的溝通那第二項的部分"},{"start":6878.228,"end":6879.108,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案．事由：繼續審查：繼續擬具"},{"start":6901.119,"end":6928.522,"text":"那剩下的再回來委員會內討論我認為這個會比較有效率的做法不然都會耗費掉相當多的時間更何況今天也沒有邀請到相關的幾個單位來列席我們也無從知道他們的考量是什麼他們的考量是什麼那我還希望在邀集完之後再來談那第一個部分我還是要強調第一項那個部分引鎖稅的部分當時竟然要已經當其實全部已經講得非常清楚就是說整個"},{"start":6931.077,"end":6946.593,"text":"次長理事長講得非常清楚了整個我們的這些免徵收營業稅的條件等等的都有一些特定的那如果你又再做這樣的政策下去你等於跟原來既有政治相矛盾相衝突的那如果這個可行的話那其他的"},{"start":6947.193,"end":6975.172,"text":"偏遠的地區的要不要也來比照?未來會不會有更多這樣的問題?就是說簡針的比如說有些可能是比較偏遠的地區的那是不是也會要求比照?我認為這個會讓整個國家稅收的體制會混亂掉啦所以我是建議經過溝通我還是比較傾向支持這個財政部的意見但是我請財政部要去找這幾個縣市政府來溝通好不好?有些可能是他們並不了解而導致產生的一些誤解好不好?謝謝好接下來我們請邱議員委員"},{"start":6978.068,"end":6998.422,"text":"謝謝主席我的看法大概跟財政部是雷同就是說原來已經有免徵的部分我們當然還是持續維持那沒有符合條件的你反而給他減徵25%這個邏輯就怪了那如果說離島可以我同樣的問題本島可不可以為什麼離島可以本島不可以"},{"start":7003.158,"end":7017.285,"text":"我覺得在租稅公平性的原則底下我其實是非常反對這樣的一個修法所以包括後面的甚至於說從民國112年起到122年止的銀索稅是減徵那為什麼是到122年止為什麼不到130、140、150呢?"},{"start":7029.622,"end":7031.243,"text":"條例第十三條及第七條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7055.737,"end":7082.567,"text":"這條因為涉及稅賦我在仔細的說明一下大家當然一直在講公平我們很多委員都講公平那大家都說要公平要公平那你們怎麼都沒有看到不公平的地方比如說我剛剛有提到那個用水為什麼是我們來付錢中央明明這是中央的事項那現在用水的我們在這條後面後項特別是講那個用水事實上就是因為我們水的話自己買以外還要自己這個付這些"},{"start":7083.027,"end":7085.889,"text":"財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財"},{"start":7109.343,"end":7135.799,"text":"這個臺灣各縣市的這個水都是由中央負擔那金門要由金門縣政府自己負擔然後金門他說會補給我們你們先電電了幾年以後我們再還給你們那中間的利息請你們先出這有道理嗎明明這些都是應該中央那要講公平那為什麼以前菸酒公賣的時候我們那時候酒一瓶是大概要繳給中央五、六十大概六十塊左右現在變成這個菸酒稅我們一瓶就要繳給中央一百多塊"},{"start":7137.27,"end":7137.89,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":7157.961,"end":7181.893,"text":"因為本來是上個禮拜我們要跟那個財政部再開一次會看到底怎麼修正齁會比較這個符齁大概整體來講比較妥當那因為上禮拜特別忙碌啊那還這個禮拜如果明天過完比較沒那麼忙碌我也是同意說可以讓跟財政部再做這個面對面的工那當然我們請這個我們相關的先進財政局也過來也一起溝通齁這點我倒也同意啦齁那還更了解情形啊"},{"start":7182.503,"end":7187.345,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：繼續審查：繼續審查：繼續擬具"},{"start":7208.556,"end":7231.484,"text":"每一個地方、每一個人民其實要面對的都應該被公平對待如果有委員提出有認為這個不公平的地方我們都可以就這個再去檢討到底為什麼在不一樣的地方有不一樣的一個課徵標準這也是我們現在在講的嘛就是說現在提出這所謂的這個減徵25%那為什麼是減徵25%那為什麼是在這個離島的部分"},{"start":7238.326,"end":7267.638,"text":"這就是我們現在在討論的所謂公平所以我們也認為只要是委員認為提出不公平的地方我們也應該財政部要去做檢討為什麼人家用水在這個我們本島的部分是這樣然後離島的部分是這樣那淹水的部分是這樣然後這個離島的又是這樣這個會被誤解因為這個都是我們的協商也都是透過這個直播的方式所以我也認為剛剛委員所講的應該要說清楚講明白"},{"start":7268.078,"end":7289.74,"text":"但是不能用那個來說我們要這個公平過去對我們不公平我們現在要公平所以就要減徵25%好那我們要問的為什麼減徵25%為什麼會盯在這個標準那為什麼是在減徵這所謂的一年稅的部分所以我認為這個都有太多要去討論的空間了"},{"start":7291.241,"end":7307.107,"text":"而不是在今天就去做這樣的一個大家我們說的委員大家討論完就這樣決定我認為財政部也要推出一套的說法大家討論清楚才能讓大家能夠有一個方向。首先我們要了解地方的財政狀況"},{"start":7318.854,"end":7344.253,"text":"那金蒙縣他主要的財源就是金蒙酒廠、金蒙高粱。他一年營業120億,但是繳到40億給中央,燕酒稅。我新有77燕,苗栗有兩個燕廠,還有一個啤酒廠,我們繳稅大概不曉得繳了多少,但是我們竄稅的能力高。"},{"start":7345.41,"end":7357.924,"text":"你繳的稅越多,在統籌分配款裡面就越少,分得越少。我覺得這個不合理、不公平。所以這一條法定要修改的話確實有困難。我們評論一下,護稅公平之原則每個地方一樣,"},{"start":7362.549,"end":7385.802,"text":"但是在這邊包括國發會也要質疑這個問題財政部你最重要在統籌分配款裡面有繳稅多的地區他繳出來稅不亞於屏東縣、不亞於哪裡還是嘉義縣所以你在分配統籌分配款把剛剛陳委員所講的苗栗所講的困難你說我負債300億、500億"},{"start":7388.444,"end":7400.893,"text":"三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案："},{"start":7417.245,"end":7428.334,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":7436.121,"end":7458.98,"text":"那個三級或四級、五級的財政負擔,我覺得這個是最重要,不然你要改這很困難的,這轉過身了,我是建議這樣啊。那立法說明如果不改就是給他加名,地方如果有創稅多的地方應該給予統籌分配款多餘補支啊,也只能這樣啊。"},{"start":7460.199,"end":7486.77,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝來我們最後請那位委員主席各位講到公平不公平我敢出言聲會請劉主委跟李次長也再聽一下認真聽一下齊金我的選區原來是個半島因為高雄港開港創造台灣的這個經濟上的效益的開港之後他被切斷掉成為是一個離島但是因為他有做了一條過港隧道所以他就不列入離島建設條例的規範"},{"start":7488.607,"end":7510,"text":"所有這些離島們都有離島建設條例的不管是經費或者所有的相關這些減免期經作為一個真正的離島只因為他有一條過港隧道沒有而現在過港隧道年限已經接近了但我們延壽了啦我只是希望你們一併要去思考啦像這樣期經這樣的狀況其實應該要給予更多的支持跟照顧他比離島還要辛苦啦當然他離世"},{"start":7510.8,"end":7539.339,"text":"事區近一點,有一條過港所以還有渡輪可以過去但事實上他一樣面臨到整個所以地方創生也把他列入到這個比較需要照顧的一些區域所以我希望主委跟次長審慎思考這個問題不一定要去用到離島建設這個條例的一些資源不一定要用他的錢但是應該給他們更多照顧所以我提過類離島的概念給他們一些自視照顧不要讓那些年輕人才不斷的流失然後產業地方上的發展受到限制我要再次強調"},{"start":7541.04,"end":7567.841,"text":"因為高雄港開港為了國家建設而變成了離島只是因為它有過港隧道而過港隧道它都有年限年限到了以後它就一樣又恢復到沒有辦法交通非常不便利的狀況即使是有也是一條過港隧道過去而已所以我希望主委剛上任認真思考這個問題講到公平不公平我就把這個一併再帶上謝謝好謝謝大家都是一起為國人好那這個部分在我們這個第七條"},{"start":7570.816,"end":7574.347,"text":"第七條之一條文修正草案。"},{"start":7585.729,"end":7607.828,"text":"我們剛剛充分討論的第十條,那第十條的部分財政部也有說明,那各位委員也充分說明,那大家還是希望都能夠再詳實,所以我們這個就先保留。接下來我們第十條之一,來參議委員、行政部門請說明。"},{"start":7610.384,"end":7627.514,"text":"關於第十條之一這個提案的利益是希望能夠促進這個離島的這個旅客的消費意願也讓這個消費的去旅遊的旅客比較方便可以在本島的港口可以去提貨這個利益是非常好的那"},{"start":7629.451,"end":7647.826,"text":"那他的優點也在這個地方但是我們在評估他有一些比較要多考量的地方就是第一個他的貨品免稅店貨品跟非免稅的貨品重複的部分那會不會影響到既有店家的業務那第二個部分是帶回的商品"},{"start":7648.446,"end":7660.912,"text":"他有沒有可能在本土銷售?所以這兩個點我們是建議基於這兩個層面我們還需要再更進一步的釐清所以我們是建議我們再多收集各方的意見經過深入探討以後再來決定這個條文"},{"start":7670.534,"end":7697.224,"text":"我不知道主委為什麼會做這樣子的答覆就是第十條之一它是必須要搭配第十條來看就是離島建設條例先有第十條後來才增設了第十一條對才增訂了第十條之一第十條它的規定是離島地區的貨品它必須要在當地銷售並且交付使用"},{"start":7698.308,"end":7723.409,"text":"才可以免營業稅。」那現在提貨區的設置呢,並不符合交付使用這樣子的前提要件。假如說免稅店可以,那一般的營業人可以不可以?"},{"start":7724.437,"end":7748.675,"text":"其實三個離島大概都有特產。比如說澎湖其實有很多海鮮是透過宅配。那我能不能假如說免稅店可以跳脫交付使用這樣子的大概念。那一般的配售可以不可以?"},{"start":7749.958,"end":7765.916,"text":"其實這個問題本席已經在過去這七、八年很多業者希望我能夠取消就是讓配送到台灣本島的貨品也可以免營業稅"},{"start":7767.117,"end":7791.434,"text":"和我不敢修不敢修的原因是因為他跟第四條有抵觸另外一個就是在稅法上這樣子公不公平所以我覺得主委是不是在做法條回覆的時候可能還是要再慎重一點第二個就是"},{"start":7793.898,"end":7818.326,"text":"離島跟台灣通行的港口很多那多數的非商港並沒有CIQS的設置也就是海巡移民署關稅的綜合查驗的機制那你們在保稅上如何杜結走私再來就是"},{"start":7823.739,"end":7839.535,"text":"離島免稅店核准的前者單位是地方政府。地方政府怎麼跨縣市來核准免稅購物商店的提貨處的執照。在免稅的範圍裡面"},{"start":7847.304,"end":7857.347,"text":"大概也沒有說我們從國外訂購了免稅品進來國內提貨的這個整體來講我覺得假如說這個法通過了我是從法制面跟離島建設條例的整體考量來"},{"start":7875.088,"end":7900.884,"text":"來做討論,要不然假如說我純粹站在澎湖金門馬祖的地場當然假如說只要免稅店可以設提貨處那我澎湖就到台灣金門也是一樣就到台灣各港口甚至於我們也加修機場就到各機場港口全部設一個提貨處"},{"start":7903.069,"end":7931.796,"text":"第六處那就可以免營業稅。」我不相信財團可以一般的民眾不行離島建設條例最主要在保障的還是離島居民最主要保障的對象還是離島居民所以我其實私底下有跟參議委員做過說明那我對這樣子的修法我是反對的"},{"start":7933.845,"end":7946.173,"text":"而且我也在這邊說,假如說這樣子可以,那賴慧榮委員他有小港機場,機場可能馬上也會進來。那機場進來以後,我們一定會也設一個澎湖金門馬祖的提貨處。"},{"start":7954.963,"end":7966.727,"text":"因為已經打破了必須要銷售並且交付使用,把併交付使用這個打破了嘛,那免營業稅的範圍會多出很多。"},{"start":7970.373,"end":7995.869,"text":"那我覺得彭州居民其實是支持的可是我不得不提醒行政機關以及委員會的委員就是說這樣子的放寬對於稅收的、付稅的公平性應不應該謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們區議員委員我們這一條就到區議員委員發言謝謝"},{"start":8001.294,"end":8002.535,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":8021.166,"end":8022.007,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":8046.878,"end":8047.918,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8076.65,"end":8077.871,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":8099.177,"end":8118.869,"text":"因為剛好他第五條是單一所以我們五個版本他剛好單一其實我覺得這樣修討論很理性、很合理這樣很好這樣看起來像這樣公發演講我們就做結論就不用跟他們說了我們經濟都很對、對、對第五條謝謝大家第五條先出去其他的留在這裡因為你說65歲以上原住民離島的居民不用繳建保證"},{"start":8126.954,"end":8142.218,"text":"草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「離島建設條例第"},{"start":8142.838,"end":8160.029,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具:「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案：離島建設條例第十三條條文"},{"start":8162.671,"end":8176.854,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條"},{"start":8185.116,"end":8207.93,"text":"條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條條條文修正草案：立法"},{"start":8210.359,"end":8213.022,"text":"二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":8229.439,"end":8231.06,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8246.587,"end":8261.678,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條"},{"start":8263.78,"end":8267.482,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8300.051,"end":8307.938,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具、「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8316.496,"end":8317.958,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":8334.041,"end":8361.148,"text":"關於第十三條這個維護離島權益部分主要是要增列在滿年滿55歲之原住民給予這個健康保險的那個給付那因為這涉及到我們內部的評估是因為它涉及到全國原住民的一致性所以我們是建議是說先暫時原意維持原條文然後我們再來針對全國原住民的部分再做討論"},{"start":8367.652,"end":8381.428,"text":"這條條文現行的條文是說65歲以上離島地區居民全民健康保險對象應自付之保險費由中央政府編列預算支應"},{"start":8383.21,"end":8398.183,"text":"這個因為考量到離島地區的醫療院所各方面很多的然後這個相關的這些不方便性都多有所以才會現行的挑釁針對不分族群的年齡65歲以上"},{"start":8400.305,"end":8410.33,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條"},{"start":8431.325,"end":8449.805,"text":"公教人員包括教育人員的退休也都是55歲因為原住民跟非原住民的一個落差的問題現行的法律就已經有這樣的規定所以既然要修這個離島建設條例所以黃仁委員才會提出"},{"start":8451.266,"end":8478.361,"text":"然後我提了修正我也提修正動議我之所以會提修正動議就是說這個以現行的條文是說中央政府編列預算支應那因為離島建設基金已經都沒有錢了所以現在都是由衛福部來支應我就把它修為中央目的事業主管機關更明確跟下面的條文的款一樣都是用中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8479.434,"end":8497.868,"text":"那我這樣子定之後65歲以上的這個非原住民他就由衛福部那55歲以上的原住民就由延民會來編列預算支應是這樣所以這個部分來跟大家說明"},{"start":8498.829,"end":8513.033,"text":"好 謝謝那在修正動議的這個庭院委員舒明以及行政部門那經過剛剛休息的時候還是大家還是沒休息繼續在討論那認為還是要給一點時間讓他們去做整體性的一個規劃那在基本上我們這個第十三條跟修正這個動議的部分我們併案請行政部門再研討"},{"start":8528.558,"end":8555.594,"text":"好,那主席來這邊來宣告我們現在請宣讀學生結論在宣讀學生結論以前我特別要感謝我們所有的委員真的感動這一次我相信我們都是透過國會頻道讓大家看到立法委員在審查的時候是充分的討論尤其在經濟委員會我們都非常藍綠白的非常和諧跟行政部門充分討論那我們現在請宣讀學生結論"},{"start":8558.971,"end":8573.077,"text":"宣讀離島建設條例協商結論第三條保留、第五條一陳委員等人提案修正第十款、第十一款合併為第十款謹正頓耗消防建設。第"},{"start":8576.121,"end":8596.599,"text":"第十二款一現行法文字修正為災害防救及濫障頓耗濫墾頓耗濫建之改善句號。補充立法說明第三款基礎建設包含殯葬設施等,其照成員提案通過。"},{"start":8598.041,"end":8609.773,"text":"清真第七條之一保留,第十條保留,第十條之一不予通過,第十三條提案條文跟鄭永天才的修正動議均保留。」"},{"start":8615.296,"end":8615.776,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":8629.065,"end":8629.905,"text":"一、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":8657.776,"end":8676.036,"text":"好沒有那主席台要做宣告我今天啊真的我要謝謝再一次第三次謝謝我們所有委員以及行政部門大家都充分包括內政部財政部這個都非常想死那主席台宣告我們從九點開會到現在"},{"start":8679.039,"end":8685.562,"text":"我們充分討論針對離島條例本院議程將討論的事項第三案及第五案併案擬具審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商那院會討論的時候由本席來做說明那同時其餘討論的事項所列議案令定期繼續審查那我要非常感謝第三案也就是"},{"start":8712.479,"end":8723.971,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條條文修正"},{"start":8732.911,"end":8760.667,"text":"通過的條文相關法制用語我們授權給主席以及議事組人員來做整理那要謝謝各位委員以及行政部門謝謝所有的媒體朋友今日的議程處理完畢星期三繼續開會現在休息謝謝主席如果你們願會也能夠照主席這樣的模式處理的話那也不會有這麼多的抗爭這主席處理的模式能夠帶給傅坤祺總召謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153060","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153060","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3b2e86835e298f163e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe31728d78b6cecfc35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:15:00 - 09:27:53","影片長度":"00:12:53","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":773,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:27:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:15:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":107,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時15分）謝謝召委。有請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，請鄭部長。"],["萬委員美玲：部長準備好了嗎？好，那我們就開始了。部長，我想教育是百年大計，也是國家的根本，您現在在這個時刻接下教育部長一職，我相信接下的不是只有一個職位，而是一個非常神聖的使命。你也說到上任要落實的第一件事情就是要在兩岸尊嚴對等的條件之下，讓陸生的學位生來臺，兩岸的青年恢復交流，有助於瞭解彼此，往好的方向發展，對嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：但是在今天的報告上面怎麼沒有看到你第一件想要落實的事情？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實因為剛上任，有關書面報告的部分，我想我們也許還有許多精進的空間。"],["萬委員美玲：好。部長，根據我們看到媒體的報導，在明年2月份，我們對於陸生的碩博士就要來公布簡章，5月份 就會放榜，對於陸生的學士班，在5月份會公布簡章，7月份會放榜，甚至最快7月份就可能入學，這是真的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，跟委員報告，我們目前是朝這個方向在努力。"],["萬委員美玲：在努力喔，好，所以這個訊息是真實的？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：好。教育部在您上任就釋出這樣的訊息，我想這可能有兩個意味，第一個就是教育部部長您準備好了，而且非常有把握可以做到這件事；第二個就有可能是呼應賴清德總統的就職演說來做一個政治性的演出，為什麼本席這樣說呢？其實在109年時陸方就已經公告暫停陸生來臺，這個我相信部長您一定知道，在這段時間當中，過去蔡英文政府時代，我們的部長不是沒有努力過，他們也曾經多次呼籲，想盡各種管道，希望對岸能夠重新開放陸生來臺，但都是溝通無效，對岸也是已讀不回。現在您這麼有把握，而且連時程點、作法都出來了，是不是我們現在已經開始進行溝通了，對岸有開始回了嗎？這件事情應該是一個雙向的事情，並不是一個單一的意願，所以部長，您現在是怎麼看待這樣的事情？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，謝謝委員的關心，我們跟陸委會在這個部分事實上是在合作的，我也同意委員，過去不管是基於什麼樣的原因，但是能夠讓兩岸有更和平、和諧的發展互動，特別是在教育這個區塊，我們還是希望讓年輕人透過彼此學習、交流，往好的方面來發展，我想這是我們要努力的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，很好喔！我想這個訊息出來，我們很多大學端的校長、教授其實都非常樂見，但是他們也都是保持審慎樂觀的態度在看待，因為還是那一句老話，這是雙向的，這不是單向、哪一方一廂情願就可以達成的，其實連本席，我們都是非常支持也非常樂見的。當然就像部長剛剛講的，我們希望兩岸的年輕人恢復交流，兩岸之間可以從教育開始，有一個好的發展，這是我們的共識；當然另外一個也是因為這幾年我們看到臺灣少子化，所以教育部也推動一個國際產業人才教育專班，也就是新型專班，部長剛上任，我想應該也知道啦，因為這是非常重要的政策，這是希望我們在113年到116年能夠招到1萬8,568名外籍生，也就是1萬8,000名左右。但是我們看到，其實過去兩岸在非常和諧的交流跟發展的時候，陸生累積在臺灣的人數就高達了4萬1,975人，現在大概剩下一成左右。所以我們看到這個數字，本席是要講，其實如果大家真的能夠好好溝通，能夠開放陸生來臺，你看我們那麼辛苦做一個新型專班，也不過要招一萬八千多個學生，而陸生在我們狀況最好的時候，我們看到巔峰有四萬一千多個人，這個數字要給部長做一個參考。","另外同時提醒部長，從2011年開始，事實上我們也持續做了很多檢討，放寬陸生來臺等各項很友善、很便利的措施，非常多項、十幾項喔，關於這些友善的措施，部長，你都知道是哪些嗎？你只要回答知不知道就好，知道嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：大致上都知道。"],["萬委員美玲：既然我們開放這麼多友善、便利的措施，為什麼這四、五年以來陸方始終還是沒有辦法開放陸生來臺？真正的原因您認為是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上就這部分我不宜猜測，因為從教育的觀點，我們希望能夠有一個好的方向來發展，當然兩邊的一些……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，本席要提醒您，如果你不方便或是不宜，甚至於不知道為什麼，這問題很嚴重！那你怎麼對症下藥？你怎麼能夠說什麼明年5月學士班就要招生、7月他們就要來等等，你怎麼有辦法那麼肯定對外公布這樣的事情？你甚至不知道為什麼我們有這麼多便利的措施給他們都不來！不知道問題如何去解決問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，事實上這些年來他會比較明顯地停止雙方在學術或者學習上的交流，主要我們知道這幾年來是因為COVID的關係，使得我們……"],["萬委員美玲：我剛才有看到您後面這一位，他的那個嘴型我有看到，他提供給你這個答案，這樣不好。部長，這個嘴型太明顯了，部長要有自己的想法跟思考，但是部長剛剛其實也有脫口說了不方便，我相信你有很多不方便說明或者是猜想的地方。但是本席要提醒您，開放陸生來臺既然賴清德總統在就職演說這麼重要的場所都呼籲了，過去蔡英文總統也呼籲、賴清德總統也呼籲、陸委會也呼籲、過去的教育部也呼籲，你又說這個是您上任最重要落實的，但是本席要提醒不能只靠呼籲啊！如果靠呼籲，怎麼會過去這四、五年來對方已讀不回，所以您必須要知道真正的問題點在哪裡，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：這樣明年我們才能夠真的看到這個宣示會有進展。","我們再來討論，這二十年來我們在談的就是教改，我們的孩子不斷地被教改，我們的老師不斷地被迫調適、一次又一次適應教改的新制度，我們要知道老師、孩子跟家長在這二十年當中真的非常地辛苦！部長，您曾經參與過審議108課綱，所以我們來稍微討論一下108課綱眾多面向問題當中的一、兩項。在過去的5年當中，您認為學習歷程檔案這個制度有沒有達成我們原本希望幫孩子進行生涯探索，還有減輕孩子升學壓力、準備這些資料的目標，您認為有達到嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想那一個方向是有價值的，但是在執行的過程難免會有一些考慮不周延的地方，我們應該肯定就一個年輕學子的學習過程裡面那個學習歷程檔案的價值性，但是怎麼樣……"],["萬委員美玲：我相信任何一個制度提出來一定立意良善也有價值性，但是我們來看，根據學生團體提出來2024年108課綱的觀察報告，經過調查竟然有高達56.7%的學生希望這個學習歷程檔案能夠符合他申請的科系，所以他一直朝著特定方向去做準備；另外，還有55.41%的學生認為製作學習歷程檔案無助於生涯探索。所以剛剛這個數據顯現一個什麼樣的結果呢？就是學習歷程檔案再度成為新的升學工具了，所以不但沒有減輕他們的壓力，其實造成他們另外一個壓力，不但沒有協助他們做生涯探索，事實上大家一窩蜂是往升學的方向走！所以您認為這樣的現象存不存在、要不要檢討？"],["鄭部長英耀：誠如我剛才跟委員報告的，學習歷程檔案確實是有價值的，但是怎麼樣讓高中生更清楚、然後減少他們不必要的一些擔憂，這是我們要來努力的。"],["萬委員美玲：要努力的地方真的還蠻多的。過去在學習歷程檔案之前叫備審資料，我們都知道備審資料每次到高三的時候大家才一窩蜂地擠來做，把過去的資料找出來，甚至於就發生了很多代寫、作為商品買賣！現在我們希望分散這個壓力，所以在高一、高二、高三陸陸續續來做，可是我們看到高一、高二學生的4個學期，他有沒有能力可以把這個學習歷程檔案做得很好？再來，他的志向跟志趣在高一、高二就一定能夠定下來而不改變嗎？部長來自大學端，我相信你一定知道其實到高三也許有些孩子的志趣改變了，他發現他的興趣在另外的地方了，這時候不能更改！那有沒有辦法可以解套這樣的事情？"],["鄭部長英耀：我非常同意委員剛才所提的，學生在生涯發展裡面，任何一個時刻都有可能因為學習的經驗、生活的經驗……"],["萬委員美玲：對，所以我們可以調整嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：他的興趣可能會改變，我想針對這個細部會後我來進一步瞭解，我看怎麼樣可以做一些微調，或者怎麼樣滿足……"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝部長。另外還有一個，108課綱還在講多元選修課程這件事情，但我們卻發現，根據立法院112年中央政府總預算案整體評估報告當中指出，普通高中多元學習選修課程的實際開課數竟然不到計畫開課數的七成，也就是說，有三成多沒有依照計畫開課，這個現象部長應該也曉得，為什麼會這樣的原因您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有一些學校因為大小規模不同，當然師資上本身也會有一些限制，我想這部分我們未來看怎麼樣結合大學端來協助……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你有答對！我想師資不足這件事情很嚴重，所以我們希望會後部長能夠去瞭解一下目前開課數是持續下降嗎？師資不足的地方、大小校資源不平均到什麼程度？我希望部長瞭解以後能夠跟本席做說明。","最後，我們談108課綱的問題非常多，上路5年了，我們必須要講，在準備上面，對於志趣未定的孩子們要他一次定下來，我覺得壓力很大；第二個，以前學習歷程檔案是高三才做，事實上現在是軍備競賽的延長賽；再來，我們現在還是以分數為導向，因為我們要知道，第一階段沒有達到一個標準，第二階段教授根本不可能看到我們的學習歷程檔案，做了的目的在哪裡？最後，你有沒有發現一件事情──我們現在學用落差一樣非常嚴重，如果學習歷程檔案有辦法探索學生志趣的話，學用落差就不會那麼嚴重了！","我期許部長在118課綱方面，馬上114年就要檢討了，我們可以把這些問題都帶進去，然後在118課綱來審慎地評估、思考，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，時間很準時。","接下來我們請登記第2位的陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.152218750000001,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.329093750000002,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.89659375,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.74846875,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.75659375,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.190968750000003,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.017843750000004,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.485343750000006,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.97034375000001,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.42409375000001,"end":76.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.68971875000001,"end":97.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.31534375000001,"end":102.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.79971875000001,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.30846875,"end":180.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.44159375,"end":202.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.75909375,"end":309.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.70409375,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.24409375000005,"end":310.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.15534375000004,"end":311.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.92096875000004,"end":338.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.31971875000005,"end":340.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.04534375000003,"end":365.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.23971875,"end":384.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.25659375000004,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.88221875000005,"end":434.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.25409375000004,"end":435.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.62534375,"end":483.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.37284375,"end":496.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.51034375,"end":502.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.41659375000006,"end":502.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.45034375000006,"end":556.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.17596875,"end":560.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.78721875,"end":574.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.03409375,"end":628.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.5359687499999,"end":653.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.59346875,"end":641.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.80659375,"end":682.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.15659375,"end":654.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.85659375,"end":691.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.85534375,"end":697.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.8628437500001,"end":769.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.51409375,"end":769.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.9865937500001,"end":770.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.3915937500001,"end":771.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.2309687500001,"end":772.9734687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":9.933,"text":"美林委員質詢。好,謝謝抓位。我們有請鄭部長。好,鄭部長。部長準備好了嗎?好,那我們就開始囉。好。"},{"start":29.229,"end":55.168,"text":"部長,我想教育是百年大計也是國家的根本那您現在在這個時刻接下教育部長一職我相信接下的不是只有一個職位而是一個非常神聖的使命那您也說到上任要落實的第一件事情就是要在兩岸尊嚴對等的條件之下讓入生的學衛生來台那麼兩岸的青年恢復交流有助於了解彼此往好的方向發展,對嗎?"},{"start":57.25,"end":60.636,"text":"但是怎麼在今天的報告上面沒有看到你第一件想要落實的事情?"},{"start":64.042,"end":72.29,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為剛上任有許多的這些這一個書面上的一些這個報告我想我們也許還有許多可以經濟的空間那部長根據我們看到媒體的報導也就是說是在明年的2月份我們對於陸生的碩博士就要來這個簡章公佈然後5月份就會放榜"},{"start":88.546,"end":98.954,"text":"對於陸生的學士班在5月份我們會簡章公佈7月份會放榜甚至於最快可能會7月份就來入學這是真的嗎?是的,我目前是朝這個方向在努力"},{"start":102.864,"end":103.285,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀列席"},{"start":118.584,"end":125.714,"text":"呼應賴慶德總統在就職演說來做一個政治性的演出為什麼本席這樣說呢因為其實在109年的時候呢其實陸方就已經公告暫停陸生來台那這個我相信部長您一定知道那在這段時間當中"},{"start":135.588,"end":145.398,"text":"過去我們蔡英文政府時代我們的部長不是沒有努力過他們也曾經多次的呼籲想進各種的管道那麼希望對岸能夠重新來開放陸生來台但是都是溝通無效同時對岸已讀不回"},{"start":151.684,"end":167.854,"text":"現在您這麼有把握而且連時辰點做法都出來了那是不是現在我們已經開始進行溝通了對岸有開始回了嗎而這件事情應該是一個雙向的事情它不是一個單一的意願所以呢部長您現在是怎麼看待這樣的事情"},{"start":168.654,"end":189.454,"text":"是的謝謝委員的一個關心我想我們在跟陸委會在這個部分我們事實上在合作的那我也同意委員過去確實不管基於什麼樣的一個原因但是能夠讓兩岸有更和平和協的一些發展互動我想"},{"start":190.114,"end":200.924,"text":"特別是在教育這個區塊,我們還是希望讓年輕人有更多的彼此透過學習、交流往好的那一個方面來發展。我想這個訊息出來,我們很多大學端的校長、教授其實都非常樂見。"},{"start":209.531,"end":225.503,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":225.603,"end":226.323,"text":"教育部推動國際人才教育專班"},{"start":246.049,"end":249.77,"text":"這是希望我們在113年到116年能夠招到18568名外籍生18000名左右但是我們看到其實過去我們兩岸其實在非常和諧的交流跟發展的時候陸生在台灣累積在台灣的人數就高達了41975人而現在大概剩下一成左右所以我們看到這個數字本身是要講其實如果能夠真的"},{"start":274.497,"end":294.987,"text":"大家好好溝通能夠開放陸生來台你看我們那麼辛苦做一個心情專班也不會要招一萬八千多個這個學生而陸生在我們這個狀況最好的時候我們看到在巔峰四萬一千多個人我相信這個數字要給這個部長做一個參考那另外當然同時提醒部長我想從2011年開始事實上我們也持續做了很多檢討放寬陸生來台各項很有善很便利的措施非常多項十幾項"},{"start":304.372,"end":322.66,"text":"那這些友善的措施部長你都知道是哪些嗎?你只要回答我知不知道就好知道嗎?好那既然我們開放這麼多這個友善便利的措施那為什麼這四五年以來始終啊陸方還是沒有辦法去開放陸生來台那真正的原因您認為是什麼?"},{"start":326.113,"end":337.97,"text":"呃事實上就這一個我事實上是我不方不宜這個啊這個猜測因為從一個教育的觀點我們就希望能夠有一個好的一個方向來發展那當然"},{"start":340.147,"end":347.814,"text":"但是部長我需要提醒您如果你不方便或是不宜或是甚至於不知道為什麼這問題很嚴重那你怎麼對症效藥你怎麼說你怎麼能夠說我現在什麼明年的五月學士班就要這個招生什麼七月他們就要來你怎麼有辦法那麼肯定去對外公布這樣的事情你甚至於不知道為什麼我們有這麼多便利的措施給他們都不來"},{"start":363.849,"end":390.835,"text":"不知道問題如何去解決問題我想跟委員報告事實上這些年來他會有比較明顯的一個這一個停止雙方的一些這一個學術或者這一個學習上的交流主要我們知道在這幾年這幾年來事實上因為COVID的一個關係使得我們我剛才有看到您後面這一位不知道哪一位了他的那個嘴形我有看到他提供給您這個答案這樣不好這樣不好部長"},{"start":393.175,"end":410.57,"text":"我想這個嘴形太明顯了啦那部長要有自己的想法跟思考但是呢看起來部長剛剛也其實有稍微脫口說了其實不方便我相信你有很多不方便可以去說明或是猜想的一個地方但是本期要提醒您這個開放路線來台既然賴清德總統在就職演說這麼重要的這個場所都在呼籲了那過去蔡英文總統也呼籲賴清德總統也呼籲"},{"start":419.518,"end":434.358,"text":"錄委會也呼籲,過去的教育部也呼籲,您又說這個是您上任最重要的落實的,但是本身要提醒不能只靠呼籲,如果靠呼籲怎麼會過去這四五年來對方已讀不回,所以您必須要知道真正問題點在哪裡,好嗎?"},{"start":436.059,"end":441.923,"text":"這樣才能夠明年我們可以看到真的這樣子一個這個宣誓是會有進展的那當然我們再來討論我想這20年來我們在談的就是教改我們的孩子不斷的被教改我們的老師不斷的被迫"},{"start":451.849,"end":459.499,"text":"調適一次又一次適應教改的新的制度我們要知道老師孩子跟家長真的非常的辛苦在這20年當中那部長您曾經參與過審議108課綱那所以呢我們來稍微討論一下108課綱眾多面向問題當中的一兩項那在過去的5年當中"},{"start":469.352,"end":482.087,"text":"您認為這個學習歷程檔案這個制度有沒有達成我們原本希望幫孩子進行生涯探索還有減輕孩子升學壓力準備這些資料的目標您認為有達到嗎"},{"start":485.404,"end":502.045,"text":"我想那個方向是有價值的但是在執行的過程難免會有一些考慮不周延的我想我們應該肯定就一個年輕學子他們的學習過程裡邊那個學習歷程檔案他的一個價值性"},{"start":502.906,"end":507.55,"text":"我相信任何一個制度提出來一定他利益良善也有價值性但是我們來看根據我們學生團體提出來2024年108課綱的觀察報告經過調查竟然有高達56.7%的學生"},{"start":517.597,"end":530.5,"text":"他希望這個學習歷程檔案是能夠符合他申請的科系所以他一直朝著這個特定方向去做一個準備所以另外還有55.41%的學生認為製作學習歷程檔案是無助於生涯探索的所以剛剛這個數據顯現一個什麼樣的結果呢就是我們學習歷程檔案再度成為新的升學工具了"},{"start":542.102,"end":542.502,"text":"我剛才跟委員報告的"},{"start":562.045,"end":588.291,"text":"這個學習歷程檔案它確實是有價值的但是怎麼樣去讓高中生更清楚然後減少他們不必要的一些擔憂這是我們要來努力的好 要努力的地方真的還蠻多的那我想過去我們在學習歷程檔案之前叫備審資料那我們都知道備審資料每次到高三的時候大家一窩蜂的才來擠來做把過去的資料把它找出來"},{"start":589.051,"end":613.19,"text":"甚至於發生了很多代寫甚至於作為商品買賣在備審資料的時候那現在呢我們希望來分散這個壓力所以在高一高二高三然後陸陸續續來做可是我們看到高一高二的學生四個學期他有沒有能力可以把這個學期立正答案做得很好再來他的志向跟志趣在高一高二就一定能夠定下而不改變嗎"},{"start":614.531,"end":628.263,"text":"我相信部長你來自這個大學端喔你一定知道其實到了高三也許有些孩子他的志趣改變了他發現他的這個興趣在另外的地方了這時候不能更改啊這時候不能更改那有沒有辦法可以解套這樣的一件事情"},{"start":629.885,"end":640.771,"text":"我想我非常同意委員剛才所提的學生在生涯的一個發展裡邊任何一個時刻都有可能因為學習的一個經驗對那所以我們可以調整嗎他的興趣可能會改變我想這個細部我這個會後我來更進一步了解我看怎麼樣來做一些可以微調或者怎麼樣來好謝謝部長"},{"start":654.179,"end":654.199,"text":"為什麼會這樣?"},{"start":654.199,"end":654.559,"text":"原因你知道嗎?"},{"start":683.868,"end":696.803,"text":"我想有一些學校因為大小的規模不同當然師資上本身也會有一些限制我想這個我們怎麼樣在未來結合大學端來看怎麼樣來協助部長我想"},{"start":698.925,"end":713.257,"text":"您有答對我想失智不足這件事情很嚴重所以我們希望會後部長能不能夠去了解一下我們目前開課數是持續下降失智不足的地方大小不平均的資源到什麼程度我希望能夠部長了解以後能夠跟本席做一個說明那最後我們談108課綱的問題是非常多上路五年了我們必須要講在準備上面"},{"start":723.866,"end":728.488,"text":"對於像這個秩序未定的孩子們你一次要他定下來我覺得那個壓力很大第二個到了以前說這個學期定成檔案是高山才做可是事實上現在是軍備競賽的延長賽那再來呢我們採用現在還是以分數為導向"},{"start":740.254,"end":760.55,"text":"因為我們要知道第一階段沒有達到一個標準第二階段教授根本不可能看到我們學習歷程檔案做了他的目的在哪裡最後我想你有沒有發現一件事情我們現在學用落差一樣非常嚴重如果學習歷程檔案是有辦法探索我們這個學生的這個秩序的話學用落差就不會那麼嚴重了我期許部長在118課綱我們馬上114年就要檢討了我們可以把這些問題都帶進去然後在118課綱的時候我們來審慎的評估思考好不好"},{"start":769.618,"end":769.778,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員的關心"}]}},{"id":"153059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3aa22d5465852c1fc442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fe2615cb29b12c03265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:15:23 - 13:23:31","影片長度":"00:08:08","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":488,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:23:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:15:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時15分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，你來自產業，而且實際操作過，也知道產業界的心聲，所以我們很歡喜，你是一個專業而且務實的部長，這是我首先給你的註解，所以我希望以你的專業協助政府指揮，我們的數位部到底要怎麼做？首先我要請問，你上任之後，公部門的個資外洩，要怎麼樣防堵？之前第一任的數位部長是唐鳳，你覺得你跟唐鳳先生就這個部長職務最重要的不同點在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：好，報告委員，我在媒體上講過有三支箭，那是針對現在政府最需要的工作來做馬上的處理。關於資安的部分，我覺得第一個當然是法規，我們會儘速推動資安法，比如說，資安署是資安的主管機關，能夠到各部會去做更深入的稽核跟資安演練，其實資安的外洩，我們看到有些部分都是因為資安的防護不夠好，那為什麼不夠好？是因為以前可能在稽核跟在一些資安的演練上，需要再加強，所以這個部分我們會加強。那當然這裡面有包括我們的一些措施，比如說我們有Zero Trust Architecture，就是零信任架構，這個也一定要推，政府雖然在講，可是我覺得這個要強化推動，如果我們能夠推動零信任架構，能夠像剛剛講的，就是用法規讓我們的資安署能夠做更擴大的稽核跟資安的演練，會讓我們資安做得更好，那這樣的話，個資被外洩的管道就會下降很多，這個是我希望的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你這麼回答，也就是本席剛剛向你提問的，您這位部長跟第一任的部長最大的不同點，可以解讀是剛剛你所說的這幾項嗎？也就是以往沒有做到，而且你們看到了這個問題，必須要去做。"],["黃部長彥男：其實也不能說以往沒做到，而是以往有這樣的一個目標，但是我這邊會深入再去推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以往有這個目標，但是就是沒做到，所以你現在接任下來要努力做，可以這麼解讀嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：對，過去有建了一些基礎，但是我覺得可以做更多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，所以本席要告訴你，從2016年開始，我們看到包括中華郵政商城、勞動部發展署、銓敘部、戶政資料、健保署、華航會員資料庫都有個資外洩的問題，非常嚴重，一直到這兩年，我相信你在業界和媒體都有看到這個報導。你點頭了，但是網上有人兜售一千多萬筆全國人民的戶政資料，而且經過調查局確認，令人難過的答案是，這些是我國的戶政資料。還有讓我最憂心的是，我非常重視教育，還有兩萬筆臺灣學生的資料都外洩了，我們看到這個面向，我希望部長你好好加油，好好來推動，來做，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會把資安做好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來第二項本席要請教你媒體議價法，這個大家都說是務必要做的，是必要的，但是研議了三年多，第一任部長也說必要，研議了三年多，但是都沒有看到。你接任部長，你認為這個必不必要？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我剛上任，但是我對這個問題還是滿關心的，因為牽涉到所謂的copyright的問題，就是版權問題，雖然我同意委員說的，但是現在稍微有一點複雜，就是因為現在生成式AI出來以後，這個問題就變得很複雜，AI訓練的模型有同樣的問題，所以我們要一起處理，那怎麼處理呢？現在就是還要產生一個共識，著作鄰接權的問題是不是可以用這個方法來處理，或者是要立專法？這個還在討論中，我們希望能夠很快有一個共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的很快要多久？在第一任部長時是三年多，告訴我們是必要的，新聞有價的概念，我想大家統統都贊同，至於用什麼方式或新加入AI系統這樣的科技，部長你是專家，你認為你用多久時間可以研議出方案？不管是用所謂的專法還是任何的方式。"],["黃部長彥男：著作鄰接權就是我們已經開了八、九次會議在討論的，好像在對這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預估大概多久時間？"],["黃部長彥男：我想請署長再……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，告訴我們，大概多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案？"],["呂署長正華：行政院裡有政委在開這個會，之前我們部裡……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：三年多還沒看到。"],["呂署長正華：因為各方有不同的看法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，告訴我一個大約的時間。"],["呂署長正華：因為部要去行政院那邊，和各部會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我時間，因為時間的關係，請告訴我大概要多久時間。"],["呂署長正華：這個研議的部分，部長來，我們就馬上跟他報告了，因為我們只是部而已，這個要行政院來統籌各方的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們自己預定的KPI的時間點在哪裡？"],["呂署長正華：這個要凝聚大家的共識，因為現在意見很分岐。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：過程我們先不談，你自己研議一個方案已經三年多了，你總是有一個你希望的KPI的時間點嘛，要多久？"],["呂署長正華：因為過去都要去行政院開會，開完會才有時程。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在也是一樣，你大概要多久？因為這是延續性的嘛。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，我們幕僚準備了各種方案，其實上個月在前面的內閣時也到行政院去討論過，但是都沒有做政策的決定，現在新內閣上任才一個禮拜，所以要給我們一些時間，然後這些都要跨部會去討論，在這段時間可能沒有辦法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席還是希望你去盤點。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我去瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為已經在第一任部長時研議了三年多，你們告訴我們很重要，但是沒有答案，我們希望你去盤點。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我去瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：辛苦了。加油，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，這一個「點麵線」的打詐成效到底是多少？因為越打越詐。我看到你在受訪時說你要成立一個打詐通報查詢網，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你要成立的嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：已經在準備中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們看到很高興，因為現在有國家隊、打詐隊、打詐四法，越多方案出來，面對的問題越多，所以我們看到你說要建立打詐通報查詢網，覺得這個idea不錯。你現在準備中，大概要多久？你的預估呢？"],["黃部長彥男：這個問題，因為是林次長在負責這個查詢網，所以我請他說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預估大概多久可以告訴社會大眾？"],["林次長宜敬：我們正在努力，希望三個月之內有第一版的系統能上線，但是也必須跟委員報告，第一版的功能可能會比較限縮，我們主要是集中在名人身分被冒用的詐騙廣告，還有假冒政府訊息……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，有了一個開頭就很好，所以結論就是說，行政院已經通過打詐專法，在整個執行過程當中，民眾要怎麼樣能夠安心，這非常重要，所以三個月內，你們第一批的打詐通報查詢網會出來？"],["黃部長彥男：對，會上線。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：出來的時候，我們也希望你們好好的宣傳，讓民眾可以運用得到，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","現在請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.27096875,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.66284375,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.94034375,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.93596875,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.40846875,"end":14.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.914718750000002,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.27284375,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.17971875,"end":31.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.688468750000002,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.81909375,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.64471875,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.53846875,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.149093750000006,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.19284375000001,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.61221875000001,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.12659375000001,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.58534375,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.48221875000002,"end":137.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.66284375,"end":150.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.07971875,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.21034375000002,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.28596875000002,"end":150.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.57284375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.62346875,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.31096875,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.68221875,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.20909375000002,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.41471875000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.44721875000002,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.38784375,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.23159375,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.47596875000002,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.87534375,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.57471875000002,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.53659375,"end":194.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.51534375,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.72159375,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.26096875000002,"end":204.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.94409375,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.19284375,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.42909375000002,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.18846875000003,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.42471875,"end":207.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.47471875000002,"end":212.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.77846875,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.19596875000002,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.31409375,"end":213.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.14096875,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.22909375,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.20346875,"end":222.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.15221875,"end":227.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.96159375000002,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.51409375,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.11721875,"end":232.06221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.53471875000002,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.27284375000002,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.22096875,"end":274.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.30034375,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.47534375000004,"end":288.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.44096875,"end":299.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.76096875,"end":299.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.15284375000005,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.80659375000005,"end":318.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.94096875,"end":308.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.80534375,"end":311.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.11721875,"end":313.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.05346875000004,"end":318.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.17534375,"end":330.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.58721875000003,"end":331.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.64159375,"end":337.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.52284375000005,"end":345.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.04534375000003,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.58471875000004,"end":350.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.80346875000004,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.87471875,"end":352.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.07284375,"end":373.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.33159375,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.98096875000005,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.14971875000003,"end":374.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.33534375000005,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.03971875,"end":378.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.29284375000003,"end":376.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.59221875000003,"end":383.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.46096875,"end":380.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.99659375000005,"end":382.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.59971875,"end":385.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.24096875000004,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.72596875000005,"end":387.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.07159375000003,"end":389.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.77159375,"end":393.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.01971875000004,"end":397.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.36534375,"end":399.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.83346875,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.63409375000003,"end":406.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.76909375,"end":406.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.92096875000004,"end":408.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.30471875,"end":409.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.90784375000004,"end":412.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.33784375000005,"end":412.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.50659375000004,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.45909375,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.82159375000003,"end":425.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.90534375000004,"end":427.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.62659375000004,"end":428.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.60534375000003,"end":430.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.32659375000003,"end":431.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.37721875000005,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.58346875,"end":433.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.37659375000004,"end":437.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.48159375,"end":437.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.97096875000005,"end":438.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.25784375,"end":438.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.71346875,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.96659375,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.29971875,"end":440.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.02346875,"end":453.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.37346875000003,"end":455.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.42784375,"end":457.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.52909375,"end":457.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.71034375000005,"end":484.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.53534375000004,"end":471.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.76221875000005,"end":479.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.32659375000003,"end":487.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":484.83284375000005,"end":486.14909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.251,"end":7.432,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊瓔發言首先邀請部長請部長委員好部長好部長你來自產業而且實際操作過而且也知道產業界的心聲所以我們很歡喜是一個專業而且務實的這個部長這是我首先給你的註解所以我希望以你的專業協助政府"},{"start":31.821,"end":53.321,"text":"指揮我們的部到底要怎麼做所以首先我要請問你上任之後公部門的各自外卸要怎麼樣防堵那你在上任之前我們第一任的數位部長是唐鳳那麼你覺得你跟唐鳳先生最重要的你這個部長的職務最重要的不同點在哪裡"},{"start":54.455,"end":69.855,"text":"報告委員那個我在媒體上講過三支箭那是針對現在政府最需要的工作來做馬上的處理那關於資安這一部分是這樣資安是我覺得第一個但是我們會一個是法規我們會"},{"start":71.317,"end":71.337,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":90.225,"end":117.857,"text":"需要再加強,所以這個我們會加強那當然這裡面有包括就是說我們的一些措施比如說我們有什麼就說GEO TRUST ARCHITECTURE就是零信任架構這個一定要推這個政府雖然在講可是我覺得這個要強化推動如果我們能夠推動零信任架構能夠剛剛講就是用法規讓我們資安署能夠做更擴大的集合跟資安的演練會讓我們資安做得更好"},{"start":118.317,"end":146.499,"text":"那這樣的話各自被外洩的管道就會下降很多你這麼回答也就是本席剛剛給你提問的您這任部長跟第一任的部長最大的不同點可以解讀是剛剛你所說的這幾項嗎?也就是以往沒有做到而且我們看到了這個問題必須要去做對也不能說以往沒做到就是說以往有這樣的一個目標但是我這邊會深入再去推動"},{"start":147.139,"end":175.328,"text":"希望有這個目標但是就是沒做到所以你現在堅韌下來要努力做可以這麼解讀嗎?所以本席要告訴你從2016年開始我們看到包括中華郵政商城勞動部發展署權序部戶政資料這個非常的嚴重建保署華航會員資料庫都有各自外洩的這個問題"},{"start":176.528,"end":191.282,"text":"一直到這兩年當然我相信你在業界媒體你都看到這個報導你點頭了但是案碗上面有人在多收千多萬筆的全國人民的戶政資料而且經過大局確認"},{"start":192.585,"end":194.707,"text":"第二項本席要請教你媒體溢價法"},{"start":219.466,"end":230.167,"text":"這是大家都說都務必必要的都是必要的那但是必要呢那研議了三年多第一任的部長也說必要研議了三年多但都沒看到"},{"start":231.175,"end":253.556,"text":"你上任的部長,你認為這必不必要?報告委員,我剛上任,但我對這問題還是蠻關心,因為牽涉到所謂copyright的問題嘛。那同意,但是現在就是說有稍微有點複雜,就是因為現在生成是AI,AI出來後,這個問題又變得複雜,就是說AI的訓練的模型,它一樣有同樣的問題。"},{"start":254.036,"end":274.667,"text":"議員﹗"},{"start":274.767,"end":294.401,"text":"那因為呢新聞有價的概念我想大家都都都都贊同的那至於方式以及新加入的AI系統這樣子的一個科技出來那部長你是專家你認為你多久時間可以去研議出方案出來不管所謂的專法還是任何的方式這個就是我們已經開了8、9次會議好像在對這個你預估大概多久時間那我想再請署長再補"},{"start":300.225,"end":306.689,"text":"告訴我們大概多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案草案知道人員的3年多還沒看到沒關係告訴我一個大約時間點對請告訴我時間因為時間的關係"},{"start":318.957,"end":343.462,"text":"請告訴我你大約多久時間?這原意來報復你們部長來我們就順便報告去行政院因為我們在報名這行政院要統籌各方的意見那你們自己預定的KPI的時間點在哪裡?因為這個要凝聚大家的共識因為現在很公開很分歧過程我們宣布你自己你要原意一個方案已經3年多你總是有一個你希望的KPI的時間點嗎?"},{"start":346.243,"end":370.639,"text":"因為過去都是行政院開封鎖現在也是一樣你大概要多久因為你延續性的嘛跟委員報告我如果幕僚準備各種方案其實之前大概上個月在前面的內閣的部分也到行政院去討論過但是沒做這個政策的決定所以現在新內閣才一百年所以給我們一些時間然後這個都要跨部會去討論部長你再回主席來部長"},{"start":374.401,"end":393.788,"text":"本席還是希望你去盤點好不好因為你已經第一任三年多告訴我們很重要但是沒有答案我們希望你去盤點辛苦加油好不好最後一個議題我給你因為大家都知道這個點面線的打造成效到底是多少因為越打越炸"},{"start":398.63,"end":419.935,"text":"現在你說我看到你受訪你說你要成立一個打詐通報查詢網是不是對這是你要成立的嗎已經在準備中對準備中齁我們看到很高興因為現在所有的國家隊打架隊打詐司法什麼的越多方案出來面對的問題越多"},{"start":421.914,"end":436.949,"text":"所以我們有看到你說打詐通報查詢網這個idea不錯你現在準備中大概多久這個我請林市長在負責這個查詢網請他說明你一國來你一國大概多久可以告訴社會大眾"},{"start":438.695,"end":439.216,"text":"對。假冒沒人。對。對。"},{"start":459.295,"end":484.908,"text":"對有了一個開頭就很好所以一個結論就是說那個行政院已經通過打詐專訪那在整個執行過程當中民眾要怎麼樣能夠安心這非常重要所以3個月內你們第一批的這個打詐通報查詢網會上線會出來到時候出來的時候我們也希望好好的宣傳讓民眾可以運用的到好不好好謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}]}},{"id":"153058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b36ddce5b6dad80d4c442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fec6f1c4c3a8b85f695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:30:51 - 13:34:46","影片長度":"00:03:55","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":235,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:34:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:30:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時30分）謝謝主席，有請數發部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我的時間有限，我就快速跟您請教，並且想要拜託數發部積極關注這個議題，就是關於兒少在數位環境當中所面臨的困境跟風險。在iWIN的報告裡面有提到兩個很重要的事情，而且很多時候也會發生嚴重的新聞、社會事件，就是傳送性相關的訊息給網友或不認識的人，在網路上傳送自己的性相關訊息，或者是在網路上做網路霸凌。我們來看相關的數字，在相關的研究當中，在111年的數據，有自己傳送性相關訊息經驗的小孩有2.5%，可是到了112年增加到4.6%，可是我們都認為這個數字可能還是低估了，這就是目前兒少在數位環境中的困境，第一個是性相關訊息的傳送經驗。第二個是關於網路霸凌加害的經驗大幅增加，111年是0.56，到112年增加到8.8%，也就是說，在數位環境當中，兒少最容易面對的困難，就是我剛剛說的那兩個──傳送性相關的經驗跟網路霸凌。我們看到，在你們的業務報告裡面說，你們即將針對特殊族群，進行數位使用情形分析，例如身心障礙者和網路沉迷，但是我在這裡沒有看到對於青少年或是兒少的關懷，不知道這個部分是不是可以加入你們相關的研究計畫當中？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們可以再加入，沒有問題，我想這個研究再請司長來說明……"],["陳委員培瑜：應該是說，只要您願意做，應該加入相關的研究，並不困難。事實上，我們之前也拜託國科會啟動相關的研究，確實在相關的學者會議上，有很多的學者就說，我們確實對數位時代的青少年跟使用環境是不熟悉的，那你們數發部既然要開啟相關研究，我認為你們要加入有關兒童跟青少年對於數位環境使用經驗的相關分析。"],["黃部長彥男：好，這個我們應該可以做。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以做嗎？確定？"],["王司長誠明：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。那我們就記下來了，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤。","好，下一題，你們有一個數位政府司，就是要協助跨部會進行很多相關業務的整合，那我要先說明一下，我們要感謝教育部跟文化部在去年修訂了黃牛票相關法規，我們發現在運動產業類有檢舉黃牛票的專區，設在教育部，文化部也有管演唱會之類的票，可是基本上這部分是分兩個部管理，這是第一個問題。再談下一個，如果我們發現有大人做對兒少不利的事情，在衛福部有違反兒少法的公告，這是單獨一個網站。另外，在幼教法的部分，關於幼教老師對於兒少不當對待，放在另外一個網站，可是這兩個網站，我剛剛說，不管是兒少或是黃牛票，對一般消費者或對一般家長、公民來說，要去理解這些跨部會的資訊，怎麼知道要去哪裡查？我們可不可以做到便民？在一站式網站查詢資訊整合，我不知道你們可不可以協助相關部會做跨部會的整合需求，先進行相關評估會議，在三個月內，可以嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：司長，這個應該可以吧？"],["王司長誠明：跟委員報告，這個沒有問題，我們會找相關的部會來討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我再跟您確定一下，司長，你是數位政府司司長，一個是衛福部跟教育部在兒少相關資料的網頁，一個是教育部跟文化部的黃牛票專區，因為這確實都需要你們協助他們做跨部會的整合，好嗎？"],["王司長誠明：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒有問題。好，那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，謝謝，也恭喜新的部長上任，我相信在很多的議題上，國人對你有非常多的期待、關注跟想像，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳培瑜委員，陳委員發言完畢。","現在請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。","作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員羅智強所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.66784375,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.13159375,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.750968750000002,"end":35.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.442843750000002,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.95721875,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.930343750000006,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.18471875,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.73409375,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.85596875,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.11159375,"end":133.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.22534375,"end":135.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.16159375,"end":162.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.27971875,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.38346875000002,"end":201.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.41721875000002,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.46784375000001,"end":202.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.62784375,"end":221.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.28159375,"end":205.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.85096875000002,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.61659375000002,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.06659375,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.69909375,"end":236.38221875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.988,"end":3.473,"text":"謝謝主席那有請書發部部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":9.755,"end":39.135,"text":"好部長我的時間有限我就快速跟您請教並且想要拜託數發部積極關注這個議題就是關於兒少在數位環境當中所面臨的困境跟風險在安慰的報告裡面提到兩個很重要的事情而且也是很多時候會發生相關嚴重的新聞社會事件就是傳送性相關的訊息給莫名的網友或是不認識的人在網路上傳送自己的性相關訊息或者是在網路上做網路霸凌我們來看相關的數字下一頁"},{"start":40.035,"end":66.583,"text":"在相關的研究當中呢從111年的數據他們說如果有自己傳送性相關訊息經驗的小孩有2.5%可是到了112年增加到4.6%可是我們都認為這個數字可能還是低估了就目前而上在數位環境中的困境是第一個性相關訊息的傳送經驗第二個是關於網路霸凌加害的經驗大幅的增加111年是0.56到了112年增加到8.8%"},{"start":69.264,"end":89.957,"text":"也就是說在數位環境當中而少最容易面對困難就是我剛剛說的那兩個傳送性相關的經驗跟網路霸凌好往下那我們看到你們在你們的業務報告裡面說你們即將針對特殊族群進行數位使用情形分析例如身心障礙者還有網路沉迷但是我這裡沒有看到對於青少年或是兒少的關懷"},{"start":90.777,"end":102.017,"text":"不知道這個部分是不是可以加入你們相關的研究計畫當中?這個我們可以再可以加入問題這個我想做這個這方面研究是不是那個對我想這個應該是那個"},{"start":104.786,"end":131.156,"text":"應該是說只要您願意做應該加入相關的研究並不困難事實上我們之前在國科會我們也拜託國科會啟動相關研究確實在相關的學者會議上有很多的學者就說我們確實對青少年的數位時代跟數位時代青少年跟使用環境是不熟悉的那你們既然數發部要開啟相關研究我認為你們要加入對於兒童跟青少年對於數位環境使用經驗的相關分析"},{"start":132.196,"end":159.61,"text":"這個我們應該可以做對好可以做嗎確定齁可以好謝謝那我們就記下來了我們辦公室也會持續追蹤好下一題那另外你們有一個數位政府司喔就是要協助跨部會進行很多相關業務的整合那我們要先說明一下我們要感謝教育部跟文化部在去年修訂了相關黃牛票專區我們發現在運動產業類有檢舉黃牛票專區在教育部可是文化部呢有演唱會之類的票可是呢他基本上是兩個"},{"start":160.47,"end":179.764,"text":"好這是第一個問題好來下一個如果我們有發現大人對當兒少不利的很多事情呢在衛福部有所謂違反兒少法的公告這是單獨一個網站另外在幼教法的部分關於幼教老師對於兒少相關不當的對待在另外一個網站可是這兩個網站喔我剛剛說不管是兒少或是黃牛票"},{"start":180.725,"end":200.758,"text":"一般消費者或是對一般家長公民來說我要去理解你跨部會這些資訊我怎麼知道我要去哪裡查我們可不可以做到辨明這件事情一件事網站查詢資訊整合不知道你們可不可以協助相關部會做跨部會的整合需求先進行相關評估會議在三個月內可以嗎"},{"start":201.577,"end":220.857,"text":"市長這個應該可以吧跟委員報告這個沒有問題我們會找相關的部會來討論好那我再跟您確定一下喔市長這是那個數位政府市的市長一個是衛福部跟教育部在兒少相關資料的網頁好下一個上一個是指教育部跟文化部的黃牛票專區喔因為這確實都需要你們協助他們做跨部會的整合好嗎好"},{"start":221.718,"end":221.858,"text":"陳培瑜委員"}]}},{"id":"153057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153057","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b380f88c1e4624f61c442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fe08cdbbd6f32ddafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:23:50 - 13:30:18","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":388,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:30:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:23:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時24分）我們請數位部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今天早上你說在法律工具還沒有完善之前，我們大概只能請這些社群平台業者來，對他們道德勸說，我在這邊也呼籲，我們所有人，包含在野黨跟其他的這些朋友，在許多議題上面我們有分歧，但是在打詐的部分，這個是全民共識，現在行政院的草案已經一讀，我們可以好好坐下來集思廣益、廣泛討論，把哪一些法條你覺得未臻完善之處說出來，我們尋求共識，集思廣益，一起來守護民眾的權益。如果在現在沒有法律的基礎之下，強硬地叫部長做些什麼直接的事情，也是困難的，因為我們是依法行政的國家，但是我必須強調，這些法案裡面，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例裡面，針對我國境內的法律代表、自然人、法人去落實落地納管，這是非常重要的，特別是包含TikTok，我想TikTok這個議題在美國已經被談論了很久，對於TikTok的管理，我們是預計先透過打詐專法，讓它能夠落地，設立代理人，才有辦法去納管，不然的話我們無法在非我們國家境內去處理。我想請問一下部長，對於TikTok落地納管的時程，可不可以先跟國人報告一下？"],["黃部長彥男：一旦打詐專法通過之後，我們就馬上要求剛剛這些平台業者落地，如果不落地，我們對TikTok的特別處理就是，我剛剛在前面解釋過，如果它不落地，我們原則上不會用中國版的TikTok，我們會看美國這一邊，因為美國要求它落地，如果它在美國落地，我們就用美國的TikTok，就是說，包括我們的網域設定會連到美國去，不會連到中國去。另外，我們的app下載會從Google Store下載，從Google Store下載的也是美國版的app，所以自然而然就會連到美國的TikTok。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以就是讓臺灣用戶連接到美國檔，降低資安的疑惑。"],["黃部長彥男：對。就是說，希望連到美國檔這邊，至少他們在這方面假訊息的問題會比較少。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。字節跳動已經上訴美國聯邦政府，未來不管要不要出售或禁用，理論上現在還是未知，但是被禁用跟出售的可能性還是相對高，所以在這段空窗期間，剛才部長講的就是你所謂的配套措施嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：你說在美國的時候？在美國，TikTok目前的情況，我剛剛說有一個打詐通報查詢網，這段期間如果在TikTok有聽到看到這些錯的訊息，不管是對兒少有影響或是一些對健康有影響，我們會很快傳給各部會去判別，如果真的是假訊息，我們就會要求它下架。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，您剛剛講到跟兒少相關，然後還會儘速傳遞給各個不同的部門，我們當然是肯定，這是很重要的，因為其實除了資安疑慮之外，還有兒少方面相關的，之前有人拍攝昏迷挑戰放在TikTok上，結果在18個月內導致近20名15歲以下的兒童死亡，這些都是現實發生的事情。剛才我們提到的這些資安疑慮的部分，已經有多達11個TikTok的前員工證實，他們每隔14天就會把資料傳到北京的總部，這些是已經現實存在的問題，我希望我們儘快把詐欺犯罪防制條例通過，希望能夠跟大家共同討論，不管是在野陣營還是執政陣營的國會議員，我們趕快討論完，趕快通過之後，將來有法源依據，我們才能夠儘速去處理這些問題。","再來，我要請教部長紅色供應鏈的部分，今年3月賴總統來到我們嘉義參觀無人機國家隊的時候，有媒體報導有一個螺旋槳的馬達上有Made in China的字樣，這個媒體和在野黨的立委都有非常深刻的批判，雖然說這已經是一個多月前的事情，但是我還是想要質詢一下，確認我們國家的資安政策。針對報導，政府禁紅令的規定，臺灣無人機的這個部分，到底哪些是可行的，哪些是不可以的？哪些是可以用的？在清單上這些，包含其他國家生產的，哪些是我們有限定一定要用臺灣本土製造的，或者是跟我們友善的國家製造的？這個部分可不可以請部長簡單報告，或者是請相關的部會來說明？"],["黃部長彥男：這個已經有在處理了，是不是請鄭司長簡單報告一下？"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["鄭司長明宗：謝謝委員。無人機的部分，我們要先講清楚，我們數位部，包括我們的電信技術中心，基本上是協助交通部對無人機的管理，就是資安的檢測，所以剛剛委員詢問的部分，可能要問交通部會比較清楚。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為數發部去年3月有推動成立無人機資安聯合檢測實驗室。"],["鄭司長明宗：對，數發部就是以檢測為主，協助交通部。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以也是有在做這樣的事項。"],["鄭司長明宗：我們已經檢測很多款了，而且我們還在做。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們有拿到你們的資料，但是媒體去問資安院，資安院說沒有無人機資安檢測，那我的意思是說，數位部裡面各單位彼此之間要大概知道一下有做哪些事情，這樣子一旦媒體來問的時候，就不會說完全沒有做，然後這類報導就會不斷衍生，然後可能因此打擊政府的威信，說數位部什麼都沒做，但其實是有做的嘛，因為你們的檢測實驗室已經協助13家無人機廠商的22種機型通過產品驗證，所以你們有做，有做就要講出來，做得好要講出來，並且要有一個完善的、好的介面，讓人家知道你們有在檢測，有做出這些成績來，好不好？"],["鄭司長明宗：好。謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。陳冠廷委員發言完畢。","現在請羅智強委員，羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","現在請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請吳春城委員，吳春城委員、吳春城委員不在。","現在請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","現在請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","現在請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.337218750000002,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.78846875,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.11221875,"end":20.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.59721875,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.79534375,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.85721875,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.41346875,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.64471875,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.16721875,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.70034375,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.72409375000001,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.50346875000001,"end":85.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.87409375,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.33784375,"end":103.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.47471875000001,"end":121.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.34534375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.18909375000001,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.58909375,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.95784375,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.69034375,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.72409375,"end":154.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.80846875,"end":154.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.21346875,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.90096875,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.03346875,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.55659375000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.23159375,"end":179.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.27721875,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.35284375,"end":188.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.74471875,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.08221875,"end":185.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.74409375000002,"end":192.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.52409375000002,"end":198.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.32909375,"end":203.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.67846875,"end":205.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.93159375000002,"end":204.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.89346875,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.03596875000002,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.57596875000002,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.74096875,"end":264.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.40721875,"end":275.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.19034375,"end":282.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.87284375,"end":301.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.53659375,"end":304.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.74721875,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.15971875,"end":311.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.62784375,"end":330.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.44346875,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.59471875,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.84784375000004,"end":336.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.56471875,"end":338.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.20096875,"end":345.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.04034375000003,"end":345.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.05721875,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.07409375000003,"end":345.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.20909375,"end":386.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.96659375,"end":385.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.67096875000004,"end":388.29096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.379,"end":12.34,"text":"我們請數位部部長"},{"start":20.411,"end":45.128,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天早上你說在法律工具還沒有完善之前那我們大概是只能請這些社群平台業者來去道德勸說那我在這邊也是呼籲我們所有包含這個在野黨跟其他的這些朋友在許多議題上面我們有分歧但是在打詐的部分這個是全民共識所以我希望現在行政院的草案已經一讀"},{"start":46.269,"end":71.545,"text":"那我們可以好好坐下來及時管預把這些廣泛討論把哪一些法條你覺得未爭之處我們把它尋求共識完整的及時管預一起來守護民眾的權益因為其實現在如果在沒有法律的基礎之下那強硬的叫部長做些什麼直接的事情也是困難因為我們是依法行政的國家但是我必須強調這些法案裡面我們的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例裡面針對這個我國境內"},{"start":73.846,"end":103.193,"text":"法律代表治安人法人來去落實他落地的這個納管這是非常重要的特別是包含TikTok我想TikTok的這個議題在美國已經被談論了很久那對於TikTok的管理我們是預計先透過打造專法讓他能夠落地設立代理人才有辦法去納管不然的話我們無法去能夠在非我們的這個國際內去處理我想請問一下部長對於TikTok的落地納管的時程可不可以先跟國人報告一下"},{"start":103.913,"end":127.24,"text":"一旦我們的打詐算法通過之後我們就馬上要求剛剛這些平台業者落地那落地如果他不落地那我就是對TikTok我們特別處理就是我們我剛剛在前面解釋過我們如果他不落地我們原則上不會用這個所謂這個比如說中國版的TikTok我們會看美國這邊美國也因為要求他落地"},{"start":127.5,"end":143.865,"text":"﹗"},{"start":144.005,"end":173.289,"text":"所以讓臺灣用戶連接到美國黨降低去滋擾對就是說希望美國黨這邊至少他們在這方面至少假新聞這些問題會比較少對那字節跳動已經上訴這一個美國聯邦政府到底未來會不會出售或者是禁用底論上現在還是未知但是傾向可能是會被禁用跟出售的可能性還是相對高啦所以在這段空窗期間剛才部長講的就是你所謂的配套措施嗎"},{"start":174.732,"end":203.066,"text":"你說那個在美國的時候在美國這個現在是這樣子現在說TikTok在目前的情況我們當然就是說如果我們剛講說有個打詐通報查詢網這段時間如果有在TikTok看到這些訊息就是說錯誤訊息不管是對兒少有影響或是一些這個對健康有影響或是這個我們會很快把它到傳給各部位去做判別如果真的是假訊息我們就會要求他再從山裡面下架"},{"start":205.248,"end":225.348,"text":"謝謝部長你剛剛講到這個跟兒少相關然後還會競速的來傳遞給各個不同的部門那我們當然是肯定這是很重要的因為其實除了治安餘力之外還有這個兒少方面相關的他們之前那些昏迷挑戰18個月就導致大概20名15歲以下的兒童死亡所以這些都是現實發生的事情"},{"start":226.129,"end":241.077,"text":"那當然就是剛才我們提到的這些資安餘力的部分那已經有多達11個前TikTok的員工證實他們是會每隔14天就把資料傳向北京的總部所以這些是已經現實存在的問題那我希望說"},{"start":242.017,"end":263.592,"text":"近快我們把這個詐欺犯罪無害防制條例希望能夠跟不管是在野陣營的各個國會議員我們趕快討論完趕快通過之後將由法院依據我們才能夠儘速的來去處理這些問題再來我要請教這個部長紅色供應鏈的部分那今年3月賴總統來到我們嘉義參觀無人氣國家隊的時候那有媒體是在報導"},{"start":266.193,"end":280.945,"text":"這個有一個螺旋獎的碼頭上有made in China的字樣那這個媒體還有在野黨的立委都有非常深刻的這樣子的批判雖然說這個已經是一個多月前的事情但是我還是想要質詢一下確認我們國家的資安政策針對報導"},{"start":283.247,"end":306.698,"text":"政府禁紅利的規定台灣無人機的這個部分到底哪些是可行哪些是不可以哪些是可以用這些包含其他國家的哪些是我們有限定一定要就是以這個新單上面來講一定要用台灣本土製造的或者是比方說跟我們最友善的國家製造的這個部分可不可以請這個部長簡單或者是請相關的這個部會這個已經有在處理是不是很簡單的報告一下好謝謝"},{"start":310.628,"end":328.505,"text":"謝謝委員無人機部的部分我們要先跟講要講清楚就是說我們數位部呢包括我們的電競技術中心他基本上是協助交通部對無人機管理上就資安的檢測部分所以剛剛委員您的那個要詢問的部分可能"},{"start":329.346,"end":345.628,"text":"要問交通部這一塊會比較清楚因為數位發展部去年3月有推動成立無人機資安聯合檢測實驗室數位發展部就是以檢測為主我們協助交通部對所以說也是有在做這樣的事項我們已經檢測很多款了而且我們沒有拿到你們的資料但是我是說"},{"start":346.129,"end":367.917,"text":"媒體他們去問資安院,資安院說沒有沒有這個無人機資安檢測那我意思是說部門內部數位部裡面彼此之間要大概知道一下我們有做哪些事情這樣子報告來講說不會說我們完全沒有做然後報告就會不斷的衍生然後可能會在因此而打擊政府的威信說啊這個數位部什麼都沒做但其實是有做的嘛"},{"start":368.357,"end":368.537,"text":"陳冠廷"}]}},{"id":"153056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b328f33c633cc86194e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe30ae6fd83cc849435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"13:47:40 - 13:53:34","影片長度":"00:05:54","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":354,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:53:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:47:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1023,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（13時47分）主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，請鄭部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：賴清德總統就職時說，兩岸合作可以先從學位生來臺就學開始嘛！對不對？我也看到你說，要在兩岸平等尊嚴下，讓大陸學位生來臺嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：我有點好奇，兩岸現在關係這麼地惡劣、緊張，為什麼賴總統以及鄭部長第一個想要做的是讓大陸學位生來臺？為什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，過去因為COVID的關係，也許阻斷了一些兩岸的……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣問好了。部長，那代表學位生來臺對臺灣來講還是有正面的意義嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，當然，對於年輕人的認識，透過文化、兩岸交流更健康地學習、互動，我想當然是正面的。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！學習、互動、健康的兩岸交流可以增加一些相互的了解嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：另外，我們也可以看到現在很多學校的量能，也包括私校退場等很多問題，如果陸生來臺，等於也可以多一些教學量能上的擴充使用，減緩一些私校的招生壓力嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：是喔？謝謝部長。","可是我就要問部長幾個問題。我們知道陸生來臺最多的時候是多少人？每年多少人？我跟你講好了，學士生加研修生每年4萬2,000人啦！學士生將近9,500人嘛！對不對？可是陸生的學位生在去年就歸零了。請問教育部要恢復陸生來臺具體的目標數字是什麼？有沒有具體的目標數字？希望啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，就這個部分，我們當然希望未來恢復到……"],["羅委員智強：也希望恢復到4萬2,000人或9,500人之類的吧！對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：很好，有這個宏觀的目標很好。那具體時程上，有沒有希望大概多快？愈快愈好？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然，我們期待讓兩岸年輕人有學習或交流的機會，能夠愈快愈好，我們相對也主動釋出一些善意。"],["羅委員智強：好。事實上，我在這邊很肯定部長啦！因為陸生來臺是馬英九前總統當時一項很重要的政績，看起來新政府也想延續。","可是，下一個問題我要請教部長，你知道「陸生來臺是教育史上最黑暗的一天」這句話是誰說的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：抱歉。"],["羅委員智強：不知道喔？你認同這句話嗎？「陸生來臺是教育史上最黑暗的一天」？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，不能用這樣一句話就把……"],["羅委員智強：對，非常好，我也不認同啊！這句話是賴清德總統在當立委的時候說的啦！","那我想請教您，「陸生來臺將使得我們成為教育的一中市場，臺灣由親美將轉為親中，影響臺灣人的價值觀。」這句話是誰說的，您知道嗎？是現在的海委會主委、以前的管碧玲立委說的。然後，「陸生來臺將接班的政治菁英滲透到臺灣來，很嚴重啊！」這句話是誰說的？陳亭妃說的。","我不要再唸下去了啦！我就是要說一件事情。請教一下部長，為什麼陸生來臺從過去民進黨在野的時候所謂的十惡不赦的政策，現在變成部長你口中、甚至賴清德總統口中優先希望兩岸能夠開通的政策，還可以促進兩岸相互了解，甚至能夠讓教育能量得到延伸？為什麼變成正面的事情呢？到底轉變了什麼東西？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，從我學教育的觀點，我總覺得很多不同的文化或觀念若能透過一些互動來減少、縮短彼此的差異，去理解差異，那是有價值的。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝部長一路正面。","我最後做一點簡短的結論。事實上，我跟各位回味一下，以前在審查陸生法案的時候真是似曾相識，就跟我們在審國會相關法案一模一樣，民進黨攻主席臺，要搶麥克風、要掐會議主席的脖子，扯髮、摀嘴、掀桌等各種暴力手段也是樣樣來，跟這兩天相比毫不遜色，當時賴清德還跳到桌上跟洪秀柱對嗆啊！才會出現這句歷史名言：「陸生來臺是教育史上最黑暗的一天。」我在這邊真的奉勸民進黨的人，跟最近國會改革一模一樣的嘴臉，我不希望到了十年後，結果又說今天的國會改革非常陽光、正面；就像十年前你們把陸生來臺打成所謂教育史上最黑暗的一天，但是現在卻成為賴清德當總統後第一個要重新開放的兩岸政見。不要昨是今非！學學部長，要能夠正面看待該正面看待的事情。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員，謝謝部長。","黃珊珊委員、黃珊珊委員、黃珊珊委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員。","今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢。關於今天的會議，我們作如下決定：報告和詢答完畢，委員所提供的書面或相關資料列入紀錄。","報告委員會，今天的議程處理完畢，現在休息，謝謝各位。","休息（13時54分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.447218750000001,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.09534375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.02346875,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.730968750000002,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.09721875,"end":35.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":35.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.90721875,"end":48.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.96846875,"end":49.424093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.89659375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.79409375,"end":57.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.82346875,"end":63.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.548468750000005,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.53846875,"end":97.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.44596875,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.81721875000001,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.71034375,"end":108.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.00096875000001,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.42346875,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.89096875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.90784375,"end":140.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":144.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.58534375000002,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.93784375,"end":182.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.57596875000002,"end":185.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.11596875,"end":188.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.53721875000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.36659375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.06221875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.58471875,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.41471875000002,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.20596875,"end":231.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.12034375000002,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.14409375,"end":275.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.93721875,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.91471875,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.11909375000005,"end":350.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.04784375,"end":355.46909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.981,"end":1.602,"text":"時間4分鐘謝謝主席有請鄭部長請鄭部長"},{"start":20.154,"end":48.192,"text":"部長好賴清德總統就職說兩岸合作可以先從學位生來台就學開始嘛 對不對我也看到你說在兩岸平等尊嚴下讓大陸學位生來台嘛 對不對我有點好奇兩岸現在這麼的關係這麼的惡劣緊張為什麼我們賴總統以及包括我們的鄭部長你第一個想要做的是讓大陸的學位生來台為什麼"},{"start":49.929,"end":62.876,"text":"我想過去因為COVID的關係對也許阻斷了一些兩岸的一些我這樣問好了部長那代表學生來台對台灣來講還是有正面的意義嘛對不對"},{"start":64.015,"end":79.404,"text":"他當然對年輕人的認識從文化兩岸的一個交流更健康的一些學習的一個互動我想那當然是正面學習互動健康的那個兩岸的交流嘛對不對可以增加一些相互的瞭解"},{"start":80.965,"end":108.372,"text":"事實上我們現在很多的一些學校的量能包括私校退場的問題那如果說這個陸生來台也可以做這些上面的一些等於是多一些我們教學量能的擴充使用嘛對不對減緩一些私校的一些招生的壓力嘛對不對是是謝謝我們部長那可是我就要問部長幾個問題我們事實上陸生來台最多的時候是多少人每年多少人"},{"start":111.035,"end":131.792,"text":"我跟您講學衛生學士生加研修生每年四萬兩千人學士生將近九千五百人可是陸生的學衛生在去年就歸零了請問教育部要恢復陸生來台具體目標數字是什麼有沒有具體目標數字希望"},{"start":134.468,"end":140.715,"text":"各位委員報告這一個部分我們當然希望能夠恢復到在未來這一個所以希望能夠恢復到四萬兩千人或九千五百人之類的嘛對不對很好有這個宏觀的目標很好那具體的時程有沒有大概的希望多快越快越好"},{"start":151.79,"end":176.789,"text":"當然我們期待就是說兩岸的一個在讓年輕人一個學習或是交流的機會能夠越快越好那我們釋出一個相對的一些主動的一個善意的事實上在這邊我很肯定部長因為上路深來台是馬英九前總統他那時候的一個很重要的政績所以看起來我們新政府也想延續可是下一個部長我要請教你一下你知道"},{"start":177.549,"end":203.678,"text":"入生來台是教育史上最黑暗的一天你知道這句話誰說的嗎?你認同這句話嗎?入生來台是教育史上最黑暗的一天我想這個不能用這樣一句話就罷了非常好我也不認同這句話是賴清德總統在當立委時候說的所以那我現在請教您你知道這個入生來台"},{"start":206.08,"end":214.342,"text":"這個將是使得我們成為教育的一中市場台灣由親美將轉為親中影響台灣人的價值觀這又要誰說的你知道嗎是現在的海委會主委以前的管碧玲立委說的然後這個陸森來台將接班的政治精英滲透到台灣來很嚴重啊這又要誰說的陳廷飛說的"},{"start":232.133,"end":236.802,"text":"我再不要再念下去了啦我就要說一件事情我想請教一下部長"},{"start":238.311,"end":266.77,"text":"為什麼入生來台從所謂的過去民進黨在野的時候的十惡不赦的政策現在變成部長你口中甚至賴清德總統口中的優先兩岸需要能夠開通的政策還變成一個可以促進兩岸相互了解甚至來能夠讓我們的這個教育的那個能量可以就是得到延伸為什麼變成是正面的事情呢到底轉變了什麼東西"},{"start":270.071,"end":287.336,"text":"我想從我一個學教育的觀點我總覺得很多的這個不同的一些文化或者一些觀念能夠透過一些互動他能夠減少縮短彼此的差異及理解差異我想他是有的謝謝部長一路很正常我做一點簡短的結論"},{"start":289.236,"end":308.55,"text":"事實上我跟各位回味一下以前在審入生法案的時候我看這是似曾相識所以我們在審國會法案一模一樣民進黨公主席台要搶麥克風要掐會議博主掐主席的脖子扯法汙嘴掀桌各種暴力手段也是樣樣來跟這兩天相比毫不遜色當時賴清德還跳到桌上跟洪秀柱對嗆啊"},{"start":314.674,"end":325.932,"text":"才會有出現這個歷史名言入生來台是教育史上最黑暗的一天我在這邊真的是奉勸民進黨的人最近國會改個一模一樣的嘴臉我不希望10年後"},{"start":327.519,"end":328.039,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員謝謝部長黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"153055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b35fc0e641b130e363e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe456854e6ed04a8475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:41:24 - 13:47:34","影片長度":"00:06:10","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":370,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:47:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:41:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時41分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：好，部長請。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，大家歡喜你來自教育界、教育的場域，所以我們希望能夠有一個新的氣象，但是目前為止，我們也的確面臨到很大的教育困境。我們首先從兩岸的學生來看。賴清德總統在就職時主動呼籲陸方開放大陸學生來臺，部長你也表示要秉持平等、尊嚴的原則，而且要讓兩岸青年恢復交流。但是我們看到，從2020年開始，陸方宣布暫停陸生來臺，但是隨著在臺灣的學生陸續畢業，陸生從10年前境外最大的來源國，現在落到第七名。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，既然總統先生這麼說，那以你預計，你會怎麼做？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，誠如我接受媒體訪問時表示的，我們基本上也會積極地希望能夠開放這些學位生來臺灣學習。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是教育部目前的方向？希望積極開放學位生來臺交流，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：來臺灣學習。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來臺灣學習是目前教育部與您的方向？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前也都有……各校都有既定辦法，每年各校招生中的2%裡……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是您是新任部長，部長，您要去看看真實的情況。陸生本來是第一，現在落到第七，有這樣的落差，問題在哪裡？實現度有多少？這是你擔任部長以後，我們所期待的。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是只有美化、不是只有政策，而沒有落實。"],["鄭部長英耀：過去確實也因為COVID的關係，讓大家很緊張，也阻卻了一些交流機會跟學習機會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以我歡喜聽到部長您的回答，沒有政治的話術，方向上是希望能夠促進兩岸青年的交流，也希望積極地讓陸生的學位生來臺學習，方向是如此嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們也希望你落實，要落實，我會再積極看你的數字。","接下來，我要請教校園自殺的問題，這是我很心痛的，坐在那裡的次長，張廖委員，現在是張廖次長，他也非常關心這個事情。我們看到，國中小學在106年分別有114件跟470件，但110學年是1,183件跟4,204件，部長，光是這五年當中就增加了十倍。在潘部長卸任的時候，他也非常憂心，他說對校園霸凌跟自傷的問題要繼續積極努力解決。請教現任部長，針對這個數字，你看了心裡難過不難過？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，每一個年輕人都是我們國家未來的希望，我們不希望他們年紀輕輕，卻有這種自傷或自殺的行為，所以怎麼樣落實身心健康，讓校園有更友善、安全的學習環境，我相信都是我們大家共同在努力的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席歡喜聽到你這個論點，大家有同一個目標、方法，我給你功課，把方法拿出來給我們。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個數字是不能看的數字，五年增長十倍！心痛啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題給你，我要遵守時間，再給我一分鐘。","關於少子化的問題，我們看到1994年到2011年，大專院校從130所暴增到163所；2023年退潮，我看大概只剩145所。我們又看到學生數，學生數20萬，預估到了117學年度應該只剩下15.7萬。我要問兩個問題：面臨少子化的問題，針對大學的退場機制，新政府、你有什麼作為？第二個是退場學校裡面的教師。在早期，他們從2020年開始從公立轉職到私立，但是現在私立都危急了，那這些教師要怎麼辦？這是第二個課題要給部長。部長，你看到這兩個問題了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我看到了。少子化對於大學的治理與永續發展確實是一個挑戰，但是我剛才也特別與其他委員分享，也許我們開始要有一些新的想法，也就是有部分學校事實上是優質的，只是因為少子化的關係使得它面臨更大的挑戰。也許在整個學校的治理上，不一定要招18歲，可能有更多做法。我特別跟委員報告，可以有30歲以後的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你這個想法很好，但是要怎麼落實？"],["鄭部長英耀：有一些法令上的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你將你們所研議的，關於少子化問題以及老師的問題，退場機制之後老師怎麼辦？這兩個議題請你研議好，提供書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝委員指正。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。","接下來請羅智強委員，時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.24534375,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.539093750000003,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.31534375,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.496593750000002,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.54284375,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.192218750000002,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.504093750000003,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.49096875,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.59909375,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.96096875,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.83346875,"end":50.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.38159375,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.267218750000005,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.157218750000006,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.18659375,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.99659375,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.02159375,"end":60.899093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.118468750000005,"end":63.430343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.750968750000006,"end":70.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.58096875000001,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.74846875,"end":95.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.20596875000001,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.41659375,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.79596875,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.52971875,"end":104.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.59721875000001,"end":103.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.11159375000001,"end":108.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.55409375,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.13909375,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.35846875000001,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.07534375,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.87659375000001,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.23909375000001,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.19659375,"end":132.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.66846875000002,"end":134.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.96346875,"end":136.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.38534375,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.07284375,"end":139.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.84034375000002,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.54346875000002,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.98221875000002,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.30284375000002,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.37034375000002,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.38721875000002,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.83784375000002,"end":162.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.49909375000001,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.10096875000002,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.79659375,"end":178.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.33221875,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.27284375000002,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.06159375000001,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.14096875,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.05971875,"end":203.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.69534375,"end":206.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.64409375000002,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":210.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.88409375,"end":219.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.67596875,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.12284375000002,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.83096875,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.92284375000003,"end":243.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.58784375000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.99659375000002,"end":250.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.42221875,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.77596875,"end":255.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.78846875000002,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.33159375,"end":274.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.72221875,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.66284375000004,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.71721875000003,"end":281.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.30346875000004,"end":282.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.53096875,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.27284375,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.52159375,"end":293.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.26784375,"end":299.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.54096875000005,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.19409375000004,"end":308.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.69159375000004,"end":310.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.00346875,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.50471875,"end":320.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.16221875,"end":324.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.35159375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.45971875000004,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.56284375,"end":351.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.97596875000005,"end":353.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.66346875000005,"end":356.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.45659375,"end":355.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.44784375,"end":357.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.68409375000005,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":368.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.80471875,"end":370.55534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.459,"end":6.641,"text":"謝主席本席想邀請部長"},{"start":16.38,"end":34.714,"text":"部長好,大家歡喜你來自教育界,教育的這個場域所以我們希望能夠有一個新的氣象但是目前為止我們面臨到的確很大的一個教育困境我們首先從兩岸的這個學生來看"},{"start":36.676,"end":47.393,"text":"那聽著總統在就職的時候他主動的呼籲陸方要開放陸生學生來台那部長你也表示要秉持的一個平等尊嚴的原則"},{"start":48.891,"end":74.649,"text":"而且讓兩岸的青年恢復交流所以我們看到從2020年開始陸方宣布了停止暫停陸生來台但是在台灣學生陸續要畢業所以陸生在前10年境外最大的來源國之外我們現在是落到第7名所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教總統先生這麼說那你預計你會怎麼做"},{"start":79.807,"end":99.192,"text":"我想跟委員報告就成熟媒體也在我接受媒體的一個說法我們基本上也會積極的希望能夠開放這一些學位生能夠來台灣有學習的這樣的一個經驗這是目前我們教育部的方向希望積極來開放學位生來台交流來台灣學習"},{"start":105.354,"end":120.288,"text":"來台灣學習是目前教育部您的方向我們目前也都有各校都有既定的辦法這個在每年的招生各校的招生的2%里邊我們事實上就事實上但是您是信任的部長"},{"start":121.129,"end":138.852,"text":"部長你要去看看真實的情況因為到目前我們本來是第一現在是落到第七這樣子的一個落差問題在哪裡它的實現度有多少這是你擔任部長我們所期待的不是只有美化不是只有政策而沒有去落實"},{"start":139.853,"end":161.398,"text":"因為確實過去因為COVID的關係也讓得大家事實上都是很緊張也阻缺了一些交流的一些機會跟信息的一些機會所以我歡迎聽到部長您的回答沒有政治的話術我們的方向是希望能夠促進兩岸青年的交流也希望能夠積極的讓"},{"start":163.439,"end":163.459,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":194.72,"end":206.673,"text":"一百一十年一千一百八十三屆四千兩百零四屆五年當中增加了十倍"},{"start":208.735,"end":217.747,"text":"在潘部長卸任的時候他也非常的憂心他說校園霸凌跟智商的問題要繼續的積極努力來解決請教我們現任的部長針對這個數字你看了心難過不難過"},{"start":226.857,"end":242.777,"text":"我想每一個年輕人都是我們國家未來的一個希望我們不希望一個年紀輕輕他們有這種自傷或者自殺的行為所以怎麼樣去落實身心健康讓校園有一個更"},{"start":243.658,"end":243.678,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":263.442,"end":280.779,"text":"最後一個議題給你 我要遵守 再給我一分鐘少子化的問題 我們看到1990年到2001年我們大中院校130所暴增到163所那2023年我看退朝大概只有剩下145所我們又看到學生數 學生數呢20萬"},{"start":283.822,"end":305.44,"text":"應估到了170學年度應該只剩下15.7萬我要兩個問題少子化的問題對大學的退場機制新政府你有什麼作為第二個我們在退場的學校裡面的教師早期我們將2020年開始他轉職公立轉職到私立"},{"start":306.26,"end":333.759,"text":"那但是連司令現在都危急了那我們這些教室要怎麼辦這是第二個課題給部長部長你看到這兩個問題了嗎確實我看到了這個少子化對大學的一個治理這個永續的發展它確實是一個挑戰但是我剛才也在跟其他委員也特別的分享也許我們開始要有一些新的一個想法也就是說有部分的學校"},{"start":334.58,"end":334.6,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":356.537,"end":357.478,"text":"稍指化的問題以及老師老師的問題退場機制之後老師怎麼辦這兩個議題請你演繹好順便交給本期好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b344b4b294bf075955e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fea9c7a02352e8f88f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"13:36:31 - 13:41:14","影片長度":"00:04:43","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":283,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:41:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:36:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（13時36分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，不曉得您最近有沒有看到──由大學生跟高中生組成的EdYouth教育協會在上周發表了第三屆108課綱觀察報告，訪問的對象全部都是在學的學生，根據這份報告可以發現，雙語國家政策落實的效果不佳。賴清德總統在參選總統的期間曾經坦承，目前雙語國家政策的執行現場有出問題，對於雙語教育現行成效為何，請問部長您個人的看法。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正。確實，雙語教育政策當然不是一朝一夕，而是需要一段更長的時間。甚至在區域上，偏鄉、離島或者我們所講比較文化不利的場域，在師資等各方面都需要中央跟地方一起努力，商討怎麼樣逐步努力、改善。"],["張委員嘉郡：那到目前為止，部長有沒有計畫，2030的雙語政策規劃會不會有什麼樣的改變呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。賴總統當時對於整個中央政府是希望為2030年設定一個目標，可是我們知道整個國家教育政策的推動也要與時俱進，必要的時候也可以做一些滾動式修正。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。其實這項調查指出，近六成普通班學生並未參與過全英文課程；就算上了全英語課程，也只有少數具備基礎英文能力的學生聽得懂，大部分其實聽不懂。有四成學生認為雙語課程確實會對他的其他學科造成不利的影響，有幾個受訪者就說，他是中後段的學生，雖然平常老師腳步已經很慢，但講的英文他也不一定聽得懂，上全英文課就更加聽不懂。也有一些臺南的高三受訪者說，有些科目的專有名詞比較多，光是中文解釋就已經很難了，假設再用不熟悉的語言，會增加它的困難度。所以目前種種數據調查皆表明雙語政策的政策目標與教學現場有很大的差距，有38.4%的學生不認同雙語教育會提升他的語言水平，還有更多數學生反映雙語教學增加了學習壓力。那教育部有沒有什麼具體措施為這些學生減輕壓力？因為有相當多學生其實家境並沒有那麼好，沒有辦法參與補習，所以他就是跟不上腳步。針對家庭環境、經濟水平可能比較差的學生，教育部這邊有什麼樣的加強措施呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正。確實，我們也看到這些高中生的意見其實非常寶貴，對我們未來政策的推動也提供了相當好、我們可以修正、努力的方向，包括師資、包括偏鄉、離島，我們是不是也……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，在師資上，很多老師程度都不夠啊！要怎麼教呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：在這個部分，過去師資的培育確實沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以學生的能力也會變得M型化，就是經濟能力愈好的，能力就愈好；經濟能力愈差的，能力就愈差，所以這一點特別拜託部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們確實也看到這一項，所以我們希望利用暑假營隊把大學生或許多師培資源帶到偏鄉、離島，優先從許多日常英文能力、口說等比較生活化的面向逐步來做。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位，部長先請回座。","接下來，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.69221875,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.31159375,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.789718750000006,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.61471875000001,"end":72.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.58659375,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.32784375,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.12034375,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.17846875000001,"end":115.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.13096875000001,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.26534375000001,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.18596875,"end":243.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.14534375000002,"end":241.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.39409375000002,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.83221875,"end":250.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.67159375000003,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.70096875000002,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.59784375000004,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.27034375,"end":282.48471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.728,"end":10.571,"text":"主席我想請部長好請部長部長我不曉得說您最近有沒有看到就由大學生跟中學生高中生組成的EDU教育協會在上週發表了第三屆的108課綱觀察報告訪問的對象全部都是在學的學生"},{"start":32.632,"end":57.66,"text":"根據這份報告可以發現雙語國家政策落實的效果不佳那賴清德總統在參選總統的期間曾經坦承說目前雙語國家政策的執行現場有出問題請問部長您對目前雙語教育現行的成效為何您個人的看法"},{"start":59.421,"end":87.222,"text":"謝謝委員的指正確實這個雙語教育政策他當然不是一朝一夕所以他是需要有一個更長的時間甚至在區域上偏鄉離島或者我們講比較在文化這一個不利的一個場域他確實在失之在各方面的都有需要中央跟地方一起來努力來看怎麼樣來逐步的來努力來"},{"start":89.143,"end":115.594,"text":"來改善那到目前為止部長有沒有計畫2030的這個雙語政策規劃會不會有什麼樣子的改變呢謝謝委員我想這個當時當然賴總統當時整個中央政府這個希望2030年是設定一個目標可是我們知道在整個國家政策的一個教育政策的推動我們也與時俱進也做了一些"},{"start":116.254,"end":132.944,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":133.144,"end":133.284,"text":"有幾個受訪者就說"},{"start":149.292,"end":169.275,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":169.495,"end":169.796,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":191.96,"end":206.978,"text":"議員水平更多數的學生反映雙語教學增加了學習壓力那教育部有沒有什麼具體的措施來為這些學生減輕壓力因為有相當多的學生其實是"},{"start":207.899,"end":208.46,"text":"教育部這邊有什麼樣子的加強措施呢?"},{"start":223.683,"end":241.316,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指正確實我們也看到這些高中生他們的一些意見其實是非常寶貴對我們未來政策的一個推動他事實上有提供了一個相當好的一個我們可以修正努力的一個努力的一個方向是包括"},{"start":241.556,"end":241.796,"text":"委員部長"},{"start":261.076,"end":278.816,"text":"報告我們確實也看到了這一項所以我們希望利用這個暑假的營隊把這個大學生或是許多失陪的能夠帶到這個偏鄉離島優先在許多的日常英文的能力口說比較生活化的我們逐步來做謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝兩位來部長先請回座"}]}},{"id":"153053","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153053","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3ab38347818c44a21e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe0726145194e09ab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:31:45 - 13:36:26","影片長度":"00:04:41","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":281,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:36:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:31:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":961,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時31分）麻煩我們的部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長辛苦了，午安。很重要的、上次當然也提醒過，就是臺灣孩子愈生愈少，近五年孩子的出生率少掉3萬，可是交通死傷人數是多增加3,000，而且事實上交通死傷目前在兒少這一塊是占比最高的。保護每個孩子不會只是交通部的責任，因為在教育這一塊工作是在教育部這邊。我想問的就是，現在大概就只是鼓勵學校把安全教育融入校定課程，除了沒有明確講到時數以外，雖然現在的確有推所謂的學校推動交通安全教育參考指引，可是沒有要求學校一定要提供整個適切的教學內容。","當然目前也有學習階段的安全教育課程模組，但我知道現在實施狀況有時候是這個學校就是執行三年級、那個學校執行四年級。我有點不太懂的是為什麼只有三年級要做？難道在學校一到六年級中，一、二年級不重要嗎？四到六年級不重要嗎？有的學校獨獨執行三年級，或是有的學校只執行四年級，是因為教育部要求的重點就是學校執行就好。可是執行一個年級很難說服我們為什麼三年級比較重要，或是為什麼那個學校六年級比較重要、那個學校一年級比較重要，反而其他年級不執行，這件事讓我們覺得匪夷所思，不知道現在法制化的規劃如何。108課綱在111年進入第二階段，那現在113年已經開始討論課綱，不知道部長有沒有預作準備？如果零散式的教育宣導真的要取代系統化的教學，這樣不太好，不知道你這邊有沒有什麼樣的規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，誠如委員剛才所提的，它不應該只涉及某一個特定年級學生的通學，行的安全應該全面被考量，不應該只是……"],["林委員月琴：因為重點在於學校執行的校數已經不多，又加上沒有全面性地對學校要求。","韓國事實上過去跟我們一樣，死傷非常高，他們花了28年時間，兒少交通死亡人數下降了96%，受傷人數下降63%。我們先不講交通、道路環境，那是交通部的責任。可是南韓在1997年宣示強化道路交通安全教育，1998年明訂了一些課程等相關內容，到2008年的時候直接把時數定下來，而且是執行10小時，讓傷亡下降，死亡人數下降96%，受傷人數下降63%。臺灣呢？現在交通傷亡一直是我們心中之痛啊！為什麼？因為它造成的死傷事實上是非常、非常地高。","反正本席就是期待可以並進，除了我剛剛講的，是不是可以全年級執行以外，可能還要與時俱進？為什麼要與時俱進？因為微型電動二輪車造成的傷亡在五年間成長了整整一倍，而且最大衝擊在15到17歲，事實上死傷是最高的。既然造成死傷最高，有沒有因應這種新運具，甚至針對各式各樣新運具加強安全教育？","2021年的時候曾辦理兒少交通安全的表意會，兒少表示，學校大部分都在作演講，兩小時的演講由警察講完，但有時候警察講的酒駕跟他們的關聯性並不是這麼地高。甚至有學校是透過朝會進行10分鐘宣導，如果要求4小時的話，一個月的朝會每次10分鐘就達到了。但如果用時數安排的話，基本上也沒有解決問題，我比較側重、期待的是能夠真正地解決問題。當然學校的老師應該也要接受師資培育啦！","最後當然期待能夠進行法制化以外，還有老師的培養，也希望能夠系統性地進行教學。以上，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，我們努力。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.90346875,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.87346875,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.560343750000001,"end":122.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.11721875,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.94784375,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":131.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.90909375,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.46534375000002,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.99159375000002,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.63721875000005,"end":280.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.63284375,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.93221875,"end":280.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.179,"end":6.9,"text":"麻煩我們的部長好謝謝部長"},{"start":15.068,"end":38.315,"text":"部長辛苦了 午安那很重要的上次大概也有提醒過就是因為台灣事實上越生孩子越來越少那近5年孩子出生率少掉3萬可是我們的交通史上是多增加3000而且交通史上事實上現在是目前占比最高在兒少這一塊所以"},{"start":39.515,"end":39.695,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":68.394,"end":68.714,"text":"稍後會提供"},{"start":89.301,"end":89.321,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":113.985,"end":128.074,"text":"一十三年就已經開始在討論課綱我不知道說部長有沒有預作準備因為的確零三四的教育宣導如何取代真的要取代系統化的教學這樣子不太好不知道你這邊有沒有什麼樣的規劃"},{"start":129.824,"end":130.164,"text":"是你的作…"},{"start":144.844,"end":169.194,"text":"因為重點學校執行的學校已經校數不多的時候又再加上是沒有全面性這個學校去要求韓國事實上是過去跟我們一樣在死傷非常的高可是它花28年的時間在兒少的交通死亡下降了96%那受傷下降了63%我們先不講交通道路環境那個是交通部的責任"},{"start":169.754,"end":185.116,"text":"一九九七年他宣誓要道路交通安全教育然後到一九九八年定一些課程的相關的到二零零八年的時候直接把時數定下來而且是執行十小時讓他的傷亡從死亡是下降96受傷下降63那"},{"start":187.078,"end":204.848,"text":"臺灣呢現在交通傷亡事實上一直是是我們心中是痛啊因為為什麼他造成死傷事實上是非常非常的高所以反正就是期待是不是可以去併進除了我們剛剛講是不是可以全年級執行以外可能還要與時俱進為什麼要與時俱進因為現在所謂的"},{"start":208.55,"end":208.57,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":230.015,"end":230.195,"text":"﹚林月琴﹚"},{"start":252.594,"end":252.794,"text":"謝謝委員的指正"}]}},{"id":"153052","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153052","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b37c61136bbeeff0ffe6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe109c112c25b928345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:27:16 - 13:31:41","影片長度":"00:04:25","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":265,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:31:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:27:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":936,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時27分）謝謝主席。部長，有請。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了，午安。因為時間只有4分鐘，而教育題目包羅萬象，我們今天就聚焦一個題目。本席非常關心臺灣技職教育的未來，所以今天花這4分鐘的時間，我們討論技職教育就好了。","我看了你們的報告內容，大體上來講，談技職教育時大部分都還是在寫私立技職大專院校等的轉型跟退場機制，看起來這是新政府的施政重點。但是我想請問一下部長，並且開放式、給你1分鐘時間回答：如果讓你點出臺灣技職教育現在所面對的三個最重大問題，你會把哪三件事情視為最重大的問題？請部長回答。"],["鄭部長英耀：我覺得我們的技職教育現在確實面臨少子化的挑戰，而學校的心態還是在過去，就是鎖定要招18歲的高中職畢業生。未來大專院校中這些私校技職校院在整個學校治理上，也許應該可以考慮一些另類的思考，而不是用傳統的方式面對這樣的情況。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以第一個問題是少子化，對不對？學生人數可能不夠的問題，對不對？","好，還有沒有其他問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：第二個，我想就是隨著產業的快速發展，整個課程怎麼從事人才培育。雖然大學不管是技專院校或普通大學，人才培育都不是只為就業做準備，但是在相當程度上，怎麼樣讓我們培養的學生能夠呼應他在就業能力上的需求，我想這也是我們應該研究怎麼努力的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是學用部分不見得能夠順利整合、合一，對不對，我簡單總結一下？","好，第三個問題呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：第三個問題，我覺得我們也許可以更積極地思考，鼓勵私校不要再有太多兼任老師，而是應該有更多專任老師，在整個教育品質上、在學生受教權上，不僅只是上課，還能有許多非課堂上的互動跟學習。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以第三個是私校轉型跟教育品質提升的問題？不錯，我覺得部長這樣回答算有準備。但沒關係，今天第一次質詢，我們作政策對話。","以本席的了解，我也自己作了些功課，我提了三個問題，其實有些一樣，有些有小落差。第一是學生逐年遞減的問題，加上產業基層缺工的問題。從數字上可以來看，基本上，現在高中生的比重已經超過高職生的比重，雖然兩者都因為少子化正在下滑。這是第一個問題，也就是說大家現在都慢慢往升學方向去走，願意好好在技職體系裡面蹲點的數量其實是變少的，我想這是臺灣技職教育面對的第一個大的挑戰、大的問題。","本席發現的第二個問題是政府投入高等技職教育的資源其實跟投入一般大學裡面的有滿大的落差，這些數字資料，我會在會後以書面方式提供給教育部作參考。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是我認為的第二個問題，失衡的問題，重視大學，但相對來講比較不重視技職教育。","第三個問題是技職體系學術化導致技職教育定位走向模糊的問題。其實很多技職生，大概接近八成左右就算進了高職體系，基本上還是在想要怎麼考上科技大學等等，仍是走向升學方向，相對來講定位就很模糊。","今天的時間不夠，我們沒有辦法針對這些問題一一研討，但我想這些方向跟剛剛部長回答的方向都是我們未來會追蹤的地方，希望部長在技職教育這一塊能夠多花點心力，研究怎麼樣讓這些東西回到正軌，讓臺灣曾經很驕傲的技職教育能夠在社會上找到其價值跟尊嚴，讓大家覺得走技職體系是很驕傲的。這是本席關心而且在乎的題目，希望教育部長作好準備，我們後續作深入的研討，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝委員指正。"],["牛委員煦庭：4分鐘應該沒有差太多吧！"],["主席：非常謝謝，謝謝牛委員的準時，很好。","接下來請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.17409375,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":51.719093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.61346875,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.51596875,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.32971875000001,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.73284375,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.18471875,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.30221875000001,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.31909375000001,"end":128.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.82096875000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.55596875000003,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.72471875,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.01971875000004,"end":261.81284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.196,"end":5.119,"text":"謝謝主席啊部長有請好請部長謝謝委員部長辛苦了午安啊這個因為時間只有4分鐘啊這教育題目這個暴露萬象我們今天聚焦一個題目本席非常關心台灣技職教育的未來所以今天這花這4分鐘的時間我們就討論技職教育就好了這個"},{"start":27.239,"end":50.726,"text":"我看你們的報告內容大體上來講談技職教育大部分都還是在寫這個私立技職大專院校等等的轉型跟退場的機制這看起來是新政府的一個施政重點但是我想請問一下部長我們開放式給你一分鐘的時間來回答如果讓你點出台灣技職教育現在面對的三個最重大的問題的話你會把哪三件事情視為最重大的問題來請部長回答"},{"start":52.711,"end":67.438,"text":"我覺得我們即使因為現在確實面臨到少子化的挑戰那我們過去所定的還是學校的一個形態是在招18歲的這一個高中畢業生高中子的畢業生我覺得也許我們在未來"},{"start":69.019,"end":69.92,"text":"對第一個問題是少子化對不對學生人數可能不夠的問題對不對"},{"start":86.311,"end":108,"text":"好來還有沒有其他的問題我想另外一個就是說我們整個在課程裡面當然隨著產業的一個快速的一個發展我們怎麼樣在人才培育雖然大學不管基專院校或者普通大學他的一個人才培育不是只是為這個就業做準備但是相當程度我們怎麼樣讓"},{"start":108.94,"end":109.06,"text":"第3個問題勒"},{"start":127.332,"end":156.475,"text":"第三個問題我覺得我們也許可以更積極來思考讓私校鼓勵私校不要再有太多的這些堅韌的老師應該要有更多的一些專業老師讓他能夠在整個教育品質上在學生的一個受效權上能夠更多的不僅只是上課他還能夠有一些許多非課堂上的一些互動跟學習好所以第三個是私校的轉型跟教育品質提升的問題"},{"start":157.276,"end":183.128,"text":"不錯我覺得部長這樣回答算有準備但沒關係我們今天第一次質詢我們做政策對話本席的了解我們也自己做了一些功課我提了三個問題其實有些一樣有些小落差第一個叫學生逐年遞減的問題那加上產業基層缺工的問題這個從數字上可以來看基本上現在高中生的比重已經超過高職生的比重雖然兩者都因為少子化正在下滑這是第一個問題也就是說大家現在都是慢慢慢慢往升學的方向去走這個願意"},{"start":184.989,"end":205.868,"text":"好好的在技職體系裡面蹲點的其實數量是變少的我想這是臺灣技職教育面對的第一個大的挑戰大的問題那麼第二個問題這個本期發現叫做政府投入在高等技職教育的資源其實跟投入在一般大學裡面它其實是有蠻大的落差它有蠻大的落差這些數字的資料會我們用書面的方式提供給教育部做參考"},{"start":206.588,"end":230.448,"text":"這是我認為的第二個問題施衡的問題重視大學但相對來講比較不重視技職的教育第三個問題是技職體系的學術化的問題導致技職教育的定位走向模糊的問題也就是說其實很多的技職生大概接近八成左右基本上進了高職體系他還是想我怎麼樣考上一個科技大學或怎麼樣他還是走向升學的方向但相對來講定位就很模糊"},{"start":230.828,"end":232.769,"text":"希望教育部長做好準備我們後續做深入的研討好嗎?"},{"start":258.541,"end":259.704,"text":"謝謝我們4分鐘應該沒有差太久謝謝謝謝牛委員的準時很好來"}]}},{"id":"153051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c28724df67e2e364e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe3fbee1faf659eafd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"13:21:45 - 13:27:02","影片長度":"00:05:17","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":317,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:27:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:21:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":904,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（13時21分）謝謝主席，4分鐘有點短，但是為了大家的健康，我還是會儘量準時啦！","請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長辛苦啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：不好意思，還沒讓你吃中飯。因為我只有4分鐘，我就專注跟你討教，就是國教部分。剛剛范雲委員其實有點到，在國教裡面，108課綱施行到現在第5年，那我想請教部長，對於108課綱到現在第5年，你個人的看法如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，基本上我認為每一次課綱的研修事實上都充滿理想性，而且就那個時空的課綱，我認為事實上到現在都還是非常有價值的。當然這次……"],["何委員欣純：有理想、有價值？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我肯定。對於這次108課綱，我們認為應該給新世代的孩子、未來的臺灣學子一個學習自主、獨立，甚至……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，自主學習、終身學習。"],["何委員欣純：是，讓他的理想、價值、夢想可以透過108課綱一步一步地自我實現嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["何委員欣純：但是理想、價值跟實際的狀況有沒有落差，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意有一部分，在人才培育裡確實有需要與時俱進作一些調整。"],["何委員欣純：所以我現在就是要建議部長，針對108課綱滾動式、與時俱進地檢討是不是應該列為部裡面最要緊的事情呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上，我們內部整個團隊都已經有把……"],["何委員欣純：就我在第一線上的觀察，還有剛剛范雲委員的質詢內容裡面也提到，全教總發布一項消息，就是七成老師喊負擔重。以我在第一線上觀察到的，很多家長──高中生的家長或國教階段這些孩子的家長，事實上他們也認為108課綱推出當時是為了進行教育改革，就是解除教育的軍備競賽，可是到目前為止，以我們在實務面上看到的，我不知道臺北如何啦！起碼以我們在中南部看到的，軍備競賽的狀況不但沒有解除，甚至更加重，不僅僅是孩子累，家長也跟著累。如果按照全教總說的七成老師認為負擔重，孩子也認為負擔加重、家長也認為他累了，那請問一下教育部與時俱進的滾動檢討要如何面對、因應這樣的狀況，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，我們也聽到第一線上一些老師的聲音，也包括家長，所以跟委員報告，我後來為什麼決定挺身而出，就是因為這樣。"],["何委員欣純：決定挺身而出擔任部長，這是你的重責大任之一，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：有很多有理想的人，我希望大家能夠一起來守護臺灣的教育，讓家長少一點擔心、老師能夠少一點壓力，學生也能夠更安心地學習。"],["何委員欣純：要做到這三者真的不容易喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["何委員欣純：以剛剛很多委員都討論過的學習歷程來看，雖然我們講教育平權、減輕軍備競賽是我們所認為的兩大目標，也就是說第一是要讓教育平權、減輕軍備競賽，但是以學習歷程這個議題來講的話，事實上要做到不容易耶！對不起，我不能幫南部發言，我身在中部。在中部我們看到的學習歷程，不管是從高中端的準備、家長為孩子的準備，可能還要到正規教育以外、民間教育產業的準備，方方面面都是軍備競賽。都是軍備競賽！還包括高中端的老師，除了我剛剛講的負擔重，事實上負擔重的還在於他對於孩子……高中的學校端能夠為孩子提供的自主學習資源夠不夠，這點是有城鄉差距的。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["何委員欣純：光是針對這一點，既然你挺身來做教育部部長，請問部長，你有什麼解方？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，有部分包括從課程或者從剛才委員所提的學習歷程，我相信有些東西我們確實是可以調整的。譬如剛才也有許多委員關心在高一、高二階段可能興趣上會有一些改變，那怎麼讓整個機制能夠考慮到學生更多的發展跟興趣上的改變，我想這都是我們可以努力的。"],["何委員欣純：這就牽涉到我講的城鄉差距，學校高中端的資源夠不夠。這點我們是不是還有機會，再討論好不好？4分鐘到了我知道，主席站起來了。這很重要，部長，你挺身而出擔任部長，就是要解決剛剛講的這些問題喔！我們期待，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。","部長，我們就繼續了，中間不休息，就繼續了，可以喔？好。","接下來我還是告知所有在場委員，發言時間4分鐘，因為現在已經1點30分了。各位，請嚴守時間限制，謝謝各位。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.94909375,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.556593750000001,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.62784375,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.73846875,"end":52.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.68534375,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.23784375,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.828468750000006,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.46409375,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.30659375,"end":72.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.61409375000001,"end":77.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.01034375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.40596875,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.94471875,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.02409375,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.14159375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.19284375000001,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.58409375000002,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":175.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.54784375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.12159375000002,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.60471875000002,"end":252.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.66346875000002,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.95346875,"end":257.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.75471875000002,"end":256.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.64471875000004,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.02784375000005,"end":264.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.51284375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.56346875,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.81659375000004,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.74909375000004,"end":309.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.21034375,"end":316.45409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.973,"text":"請教育部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":10.95,"end":13.752,"text":"部長辛苦了謝謝委員因為我只有4分鐘我就專注再跟您討教一下就是國教部分剛剛其實范雲委員有點到國教裡面對108課綱我們現在實行到現在第5年那我就想請教部長一下你個人對108課綱到現在第5年你的看法如何"},{"start":35.779,"end":36.099,"text":"有理想有價值"},{"start":54.18,"end":74.614,"text":"我肯定這是108課綱我們認為應該給我們新世代的孩子未來的台灣的學子要有一個學習自主獨立甚至讓他的這個理想價值夢想可以透過108課綱一步一步的自我實現但是呢理想價值跟"},{"start":76.075,"end":89.065,"text":"實際的狀況有沒有落差部長我同意有部分的在人才培育裡面他確實有需要去與時俱進去做一些調整所以我現在就是要建議部長是不是我們108課綱裡面的滾動式的一個與時俱進的一個檢討是不是應該我們把它列為是部裡面應該最要緊的事情"},{"start":98.092,"end":123.211,"text":"我想我們內部事實上整個團隊都已經有把因為剛剛就我在第一線上的觀察那還有剛剛范議員的質詢內容裡面有提到全教總也有發布一個消息是七成的老師喊負擔重那以這個我在第一線上觀察到很多家長高中生的家長或者是國教的這些孩子的家長事實上他們也認為說"},{"start":126.674,"end":150.553,"text":"108課綱當時我們認為要教育改革就要解除所謂的軍備競賽可是到目前我們在實務面上看我不知道臺北如何啦起碼我們在中南部看到的這個軍備競賽的一個狀況沒有解除甚至更加重那不僅僅是孩子累家長也跟著累那如果按照全教總說七成的老師也認為負擔重那孩子也認為他加重了"},{"start":151.374,"end":158.121,"text":"家長也認為他累了那請問一下我們與時俱進的一個滾動要如何來面對因應這樣的狀況部長其實我們也聽到第一線上的一些老師的聲音包括家長所以也跟委員報告這一次為什麼我後來這個決定挺身而出決定挺身而出來但是部長這是你一個重責大任之一對不對"},{"start":175.618,"end":182.128,"text":"我希望我們有很多有理想的人他能夠大家一起來這個守護這個台灣的教育讓他家長少一點擔心老師能夠少一點壓力學生也能夠更安心的學習要做到這三者真的不容易"},{"start":192.102,"end":194.523,"text":"以剛剛很多委員都討論過的這個學習歷程來看的話事實上我們在講的教育平權軍備競賽這兩大這個我們認為的目標第一個要讓教育平權要減輕軍備競賽但是以學習歷程的這個議題來講的話事實上要做到不容易部長"},{"start":213.328,"end":234.055,"text":"有期的在呃對不起我不能幫南部發言我身在中部喔那在中部我們看到的學習歷程的這個不管是準備從高中高中端的準備到家長為孩子的準備到可能還要到正規教育以外的民間教育產業裡面的準備這方方面面"},{"start":234.855,"end":235.195,"text":"我想有"},{"start":264.98,"end":281.641,"text":"部份的包括從課程或者從剛才委員所提的這個學習歷程我相信有一些東西我們確實是可以調整的比如剛才也有許多委員關心這個你高一高二他可能會興趣上會有一些改變"},{"start":282.302,"end":306.67,"text":"那我們怎麼樣讓整個這個機制能夠考慮到學生的一些更多的一些發展跟興趣上的一個改變我想這都是我們可以這個就牽涉到我講的城鄉差距裡面學校高中端的資源夠不夠這個我們是不是還有機會再來討論好不好4分鐘到了我知道主席站起來了這很重要部長你挺身而出來擔任部長就是要解決剛剛講的這些問題我們期待謝謝"},{"start":310.392,"end":314.883,"text":"好謝謝部長那部長我們就繼續了我們中間不休息的我們就繼續了可以哈"}]}},{"id":"153050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b310db026bdd8fc4b8e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe50bd84bcca1a34445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"13:08:31 - 13:21:27","影片長度":"00:12:56","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":776,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:21:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:08:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":860,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（13時8分）謝謝召委，有請部長。辛苦了，還沒吃飯！"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：部長午安！今天算是你第一次來教文委員會備詢，剛剛很多委員問了你很多議題，而我今天是比較想針對大方向上與你交換意見，所以沒有什麼可怕的問題要問你。","第一個，你應該有看到新聞，剛剛委員也問過，關於你要做的三件事，我認為都蠻好的。在潘部長最後一次備詢時，我問過潘部長，有哪三大修法是他想完成卻未完成的，也就是未竟之業，不知道你有沒有看到這個新聞，鄭部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，有。"],["范委員雲：有，你知道他想要修卻來不及完成的是哪三法嗎？答錯也沒關係，我只是想了解你知不知道。"],["鄭部長英耀：一個應該是學生心理輔導。"],["范委員雲：對，學輔法。"],["鄭部長英耀：一個是青年……"],["范委員雲：他沒有講到青年基本法。"],["鄭部長英耀：我印象比較深刻的是心理輔導法。"],["范委員雲：對，一個是學輔法，至於另外兩個，潘部長說是哪兩個，不曉得，所以他沒有跟你……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有、沒有，報告委員，基本上，有一些訊息我並沒有充分掌握。"],["范委員雲：沒關係，顯然這個部分的交接，我們還需要繼續努力啊！當天潘部長有上新聞，立委范雲關心他要做的事情，分別是學生輔導法、營養午餐條例以及大學法，而潘部長當時對於這三大未完成的重要法案與我的看法完全一樣，之前我並沒有與潘部長套過招，他就是在最後一次回應的。因為你剛上任，也蠻需要時間了解，我認為潘部長講的三大法案真的蠻重要的，也是目前還蠻需要的，而教育部也需要準備，所以部長是否可以承諾會展開部版的工程？我知道有些你們已經有準備、有些還沒有準備，因為對我們而言，委員都有版本在立法院裡面一讀通過，但是蠻需要教育部全盤的考量，到時候一起討論的話，我想那個修法的可行性才會最高。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，潘部長當時提到的學生輔導法、營養午餐條例以及大學法，確實也都是現在學校教育從不同面向所關心的一些議題，我們會來努力。"],["范委員雲：請教育部積極努力，能夠及早在準備好的情況下提出來。另外，今天我想就三大主軸及三大教育階段與你交換意見，對我來講，第一個，教師權益沒有顧好的話，教育就很難做好。第二個，當然就是學生的受教權，如何才能讓學生安心學習。第三個，就是我們的制度環境。至於教育階段，我想你也非常了解，我們有高教及國教，新來的兩位次長都會從旁協助你，另外教育部還有一個幼教。","我想就這三大主軸及三大教育與你交換意見，首先當然就是高教，剛剛已經提到大學治理的法制，目前不只是學生不滿意，教育團體、教師也不滿意，甚至是校長其實也都有意見，也許與教師、與學生的方向不一樣，但是也都覺得有蠻多議題需要就大學治理的方式能夠有討論。之前潘部長與劉次長最後一次備詢時答應會去規劃高教國是會議，還答應要納入交接清單、要請新部長研議，不知道你有收到交接清單嗎？藉由高教國是會議廣邀教育團體、大學教師、校長及學生一起討論，看看能不能達成共識。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想高等教育從我擔任中山大學校長時大家都有一些想像，怎麼樣讓老師能夠更專業、讓學生也能擴大對校務發展的參與，基本上，大家對那個方向都有一些共識、也有一些想法，我想我們會……"],["范委員雲：高教國是會議，我記得潘部長好像覺得不一定要稱為會議，它比較偏向是一個論壇，不管名稱是什麼，這個部分包含高教的教育經費是不是應該增加，我想無論學生、老師或校長都是歡迎的，所以你們是不是可以研議來推動呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，那個方向是我們怎麼樣去理解利害關係人相關的一些權益，我想要用什麼樣的形式能夠展現，重點是能夠真正聽到第一線上無論是老師、學生或大學治理實質經營者的一些聲音，我想我們會來努力。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長願意努力。另外，我也想提醒部長，私校退場條例第二十四條的版本最近在我們大院被逕付二讀，外界非常的憂慮，除了程序上完全跳過我們、除了過去常常都有跨黨派共識的教育及文化委員會之外，外界憂慮的是這個版本規定在私校列專輔後，增加了一年徵求財團接續辦學的期間，這個會不會讓透過各種租稅土地優惠累積起來的校產變成沒有經過很好的評估而被財團奪取？雖然這個有可能是過慮，但是因為沒有在教育及文化委員會裡討論，我們擔心專業度會有問題，這個部分也請部長要關切。","另外一個相關的問題，不知道部長是否知道──上個月陽交大與群聯電子以產學合作的名義，在他們的客家學院沒有需求的情況下，破壞了六家聚落說要興建大樓，後來是因為師生強烈抗議之後才作罷，部長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我知道。"],["范委員雲：你知道喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：看到報導。"],["范委員雲：這件事情讓我們反思，過去我們推動過的產創條例或相關的規定，是不是也應該要仔細檢視？因為這不是單一的個案，還有蠻多其他的相關爭議。當時是一個用意良好的產創條例，如果變成是變相的搶奪資源，卻沒有產學合作之實的話，我想就會失去當時良好的用意。是不是也請部長注意這件事情，針對幾個個案，請高教司也是高教出身的次長一起協助，好好的檢視，看看相關的條例或規定有沒有檢討的必要，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["范委員雲：才講完高教就只剩下2分鐘了！關於國教的部分，剛剛很多委員都提到了108課綱，我個人覺得它的理念初衷很好，但是剛剛大家都講到在執行上讓學生有很多壓力，而且多元選修的城鄉差距也需要解決，畢竟我們是鼓勵學生自我探索，如何在壓力不要增加那麼多的情況下自我探索，我覺得這是相關要去努力的。另外，我也接收到教師們的陳情，以全教總來講，其實他們有不少人已經感受到108課綱正面的空間，只是教師覺得負擔過重，沒有獲得足夠的資源，而且多元選修目前的規劃並沒有給老師鼓勵。因為我們自己都教過書，一個新的課程需要備課、需要花更多的力氣，所以如何就教師的部分給予支持，我也覺得這是在國教上應該要努力的，以上是108課綱相關的部分。","另外，淘汰不適任教師，這個部分也要請部長關心，譬如我們只要google狼師，就會看到全部都是狼師的部分，有些時候是在地方局處的部分並沒有好好處理，有的層級是在學校的部分，我們去年針對#MeToo已經把法律又重修了一遍，也要請部長關切。還有最近補教界出現的狼師，未來如何與校園系統連結，這件事情在過去我們有努力過，也要請教育部進一步關切。","最後在國教的部分，我也特別想講的是校園霸凌，這個部分，潘部長的未竟之業，學生輔導法本身對於霸凌這件事，我相信可能會有所幫助，這也是為什麼我們希望學生輔導法能夠儘早出來的原因之一，好嗎？","還剩一點時間，我們就來講幼教，其實剛剛鍾佳濱委員講的幼教也就是第一線現場的問題，本來想問部長，但是沒有時間了，所以我就自己答。我看到幼教的三個問題，第一個，幼教老師、幼托工作者低薪高壓、人才流失，最近教保團體出來召開記者會，說政府0到6歲國家養的政策很好，但是撒了錢卻治標不治本，幼托工作者還是面臨三高，高工時、高情緒、高壓力，三低分別是薪資低、福利低、保障低。從剛剛鍾佳濱委員的屏東資料中看到，我們補貼家長的錢給了私立的幼托，可是老師的薪水沒有漲，因為錢拿去付房租了，這是一個蠻大的問題。回到剛剛講的，如果老師的勞動環境不好會影響到教師、也會造成不當對待，所以虐童案頻傳。如果我們仔細去看的話，其實都是以私立的幼托為主，所以這個部分是不是可以請部長一起關心？就目前政策的方向，其實對公私比沒有實質的提升，五年內增不到2%，所以像剛剛鍾佳濱委員提到的例子，在屏東這樣的地方利潤不夠高，其實就是市場失敗，也沒有私托要進場。所以要如何增加公立比，目前是3比7，公立3、私立7，我覺得是教育部在幼教這個方向上應該努力的，不知道部長是不是認同？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指導。在幼托這個部分，公立的只有三成……"],["范委員雲：對。"],["鄭部長英耀：很多時候我們當然也希望能夠引進民間對教育的關心與投注，但是在偏鄉、離島這些地區，我相信應該用公部門的力量來協助學校成立幼托。"],["范委員雲：剛剛鍾佳濱委員提出一個解方，我們先不談他提到的教保人員部分，那麼在學校空間上，如何讓公托進場或非營利單位進場，我想是教育部可以主動努力的好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：我相信張廖萬堅委員應該很熟悉，可以協助這一塊的努力，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：主席已經站起來了。總之就是三主軸、三階段，我們期待部長的亮麗表現，一起加油，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的準時。","各位，已經1點21分，本席強烈要求列席委員每個人質詢時間4分鐘，請準時，好不好？謝謝。","接下來請何欣純委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.16096875,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.62971875,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.28784375,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.13159375,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.924718750000004,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.55221875000001,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.71221875,"end":72.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.81721875000001,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.96471875,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.13284375,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.02721875,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.61784375,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.75659375000001,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.92846875000001,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.09721875000001,"end":89.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.53909375,"end":161.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.77346875,"end":180.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.57346875000002,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.13784375,"end":180.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.15471875,"end":273.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.13159375000004,"end":276.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.25346875,"end":300.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.33846875,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.49096875000004,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.09846875,"end":324.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.75534375,"end":346.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.12971875,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.57596875,"end":424.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.55096875000004,"end":427.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.86284375,"end":474.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.56846875,"end":476.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.66534375000003,"end":480.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.86721875,"end":615.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.34409375,"end":711.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.7253437500001,"end":716.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.3703437500001,"end":717.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.4040937500001,"end":742.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.67346875,"end":722.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.8815937500001,"end":740.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.9740937500001,"end":742.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.6828437500001,"end":776.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.7165937500001,"end":743.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.03096875,"end":756.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.91221875,"end":760.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.2353437500001,"end":772.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.60221875,"end":773.27721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.43,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":30.579,"end":53.836,"text":"首先我想您應該有看到新聞我有看到剛剛委員也問過您要做的三件事那我想您要做的三件事都蠻好的那我在潘部長最後一次備詢的時候我有問他說潘部長有哪三大修法是您想完成卻未完成的就是未盡之業那不知道您有沒有看到這個新聞鄭部長"},{"start":56.796,"end":74.863,"text":"是跟委員報告有那您知道他講的那個三大他想要修但是來不及完成的法是哪三法嗎答錯沒關係我只是想說不曉得您知不知道一個是應該是學生心理對學夫法那一個是青年"},{"start":78.689,"end":96.296,"text":"我主要印象比較深刻的是在心理 心理輔導法一個是學輔法對那另外兩個是哪兩個 潘部長說哪兩個不曉得所以他沒有沒有沒有沒有應該跟委員報告我基本上是有一些訊息我並沒有充分掌握是好"},{"start":96.616,"end":100.419,"text":"沒關係顯然這個部分交接我們還需要繼續努力當天潘部長有上新聞立委范雲關心他要做的事情是學生輔導法營養午餐條例還有大學法那潘部長當時的這三大未完成的重要"},{"start":119.292,"end":120.013,"text":"部長您是不是可以承諾就是會展開布板的工程"},{"start":146.977,"end":160.618,"text":"我知道有些你們已經有準備了有些還沒有準備了因為對我們來講我們委員都有版本在立法院裡面一讀通過但是蠻需要教育部全盤的考量到時候一起討論的話我想那個修法可行性才會最高"},{"start":162.79,"end":178.804,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心那潘部長當時所提到的這個學生輔導法營養午餐條例以及大學法我想他確實都是我們現在對教育學校教育裡邊從不同面向共同關心的一些議題我們會來努力"},{"start":180.205,"end":209.165,"text":"好 那就請那個教育部積極努力那能夠及早在準備好的情況下提出來那今天我另外想就三大主軸跟三大教育階段跟您交換意見那對我來講我一直看待教育的話第一個教師權益教師權益沒有顧好的話教育就很難做好第二個當然就是學生的受教權要如何讓學生安心學習第三個就是我們的制度環境"},{"start":210.406,"end":228.592,"text":"教育階段我想您也非常了解我們有高教就是我們新來的次長還有國教兩位都會協助您高教國教另外還有教育部還有一個右教所以我想就這三大主軸跟三大教育跟您交換意見首先當然就是高教那高教"},{"start":229.492,"end":254.028,"text":"剛剛已經提到了就是大學這個治理的法制目前不只是學生不滿意教育團體教師也不滿意甚至校長也其實都有一些也許跟教師跟學生方向不一樣可是也都覺得有蠻多議題需要就大學治理的方式能夠有討論那之前潘部長跟劉次長最後一次被選的時候有答應說會去規劃高教國式會議"},{"start":258.21,"end":275.678,"text":"還答應要納入交接清單要請新部長來研議不知道那個交接清單你有收到嗎藉由高教國式會議廣邀教育團體大學教師然後校長和學生一起來討論看看能不能達成共識"},{"start":277.264,"end":299.502,"text":"我想高等教育從我當時在擔任中山大學校長的時候大概大家都有一些想像怎麼讓老師能夠更專業然後讓學生也能夠擴大這一個學生的一些對校務發展的一個參與我想那都是大家都那個方向基本上大家都有一些共識也有一些想法"},{"start":300.503,"end":301.464,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀列席報告"},{"start":323.861,"end":346.273,"text":"謝謝委員我想那個方向是我們怎麼樣去理解利害關係人相關的一些權益我想那都是用什麼樣的一個形式能夠展現重點是能夠真正聽到第一線上不管老師學生或者在大學治理裡面的實質的經營者的一些聲音我想我們來努力"},{"start":347.953,"end":373.34,"text":"謝謝部長願意努力另外我也想提醒部長的是這個私校退場條例24條版本最近在我們大院被禁服惡毒那外界非常的憂慮除了程序上完全跳過我們過去這個常常都有跨黨派共識的教育文化委員會之外外界憂慮的是這個版本裡面在私校列專府後"},{"start":373.78,"end":395.527,"text":"增加了一年徵求財團接續辦學的期間那這會不會讓財團透過各種租稅土地優惠然後累積起來的效產就是變成只是好像沒有經過很好的評估被奪取那當然這個有可能是過濾可是因為沒有在教育文化委員會裡面討論那我們擔心專業度會有問題那這部分也請那個部長要關切"},{"start":402.169,"end":424.506,"text":"另外一個相關的問題是不知道部長知不知道上個月楊交大跟群聯電子以產學合作的名義在他們的客家學院沒有需求的情況下破壞了六家聚落說要興建大樓後來是因為師生強烈抗議之後才作罷部長您知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":425.778,"end":440.127,"text":"我知道你知道齁那我想這件事情讓我們去反思我們過去推動過的產創條例或者是相關的規定是不是也應該要仔細檢視因為這個不是單一的個案還有蠻多其他的相關爭議的那當時是一個非常就是用意良好的一個產創條例可是如果變成就是變相的搶奪資源"},{"start":454.215,"end":474.677,"text":"那卻沒有產學合作支持的話我想就會失去了當時的這個良好的用意那是不是也請部長注意這件事情把幾個個案請我們高教司讓我們也有高教出身的次長一起協僱好好的檢視看相關的條例或者是規定有沒有檢討的必要好不好"},{"start":475.932,"end":498.405,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這樣才講完高教就只剩兩分鐘了我想國教的部分剛剛很多委員都提到了108課綱我個人覺得執行上他理念初中很好剛剛大家都講到執行上學生有很多壓力多元選修的城鄉差距也需要解決"},{"start":499.325,"end":514.291,"text":"畢竟我們是鼓勵學生自我探索可是如何在壓力不要增加那麼多的情況下自我探索我覺得這是相關要去努力的另外我也接受到教師們的陳情以全教種來講他們看到的是其實他們不少人是已經感受到108課綱的正面的空間只是教師覺得負擔過重"},{"start":525.575,"end":525.595,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":545.282,"end":545.602,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":571.241,"end":587.336,"text":"還有最近補教界出現的狼獅未來如何跟校園系統連結這件事情過去我們有努力過也要請教育部進一步關切最後國教的部分我也特別想講校園霸凌這個部分"},{"start":587.856,"end":608.564,"text":"范部長的未經之夜學生輔導法本身那可能會對這個霸凌的事情我相信能夠幫忙來協助那這部分我們也是為什麼會希望學生輔導法能夠盡早出來的原因之一好嗎好那這部分我講我的關鍵那最後剩一點時間講幼教其實剛剛鍾嘉賓委員講的幼教也就是講第一線現場的問題那本來想問"},{"start":615.487,"end":615.927,"text":"政府的0到6歲國家養的政策很好"},{"start":636.457,"end":651.945,"text":"但是撒了錢卻治標不治本又托工作者還是面臨三高高工時高情緒高壓力三低薪資低福利低保障低剛剛中嘉賓委員的屏東的資料我們剛好看到我們補貼了家長的錢然後給了"},{"start":654.927,"end":676.633,"text":"私立的誘託可是老師的薪水沒有漲錢拿去付房租了這是一個蠻大的問題回到剛講的如果老師的勞動環境不好影響教師那也會造成不當對待所以虐童案頻傳我們如果仔細去看的話其實都是以私立的誘託為主"},{"start":678.473,"end":700.52,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":700.52,"end":701.34,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個指導"},{"start":717.363,"end":742.637,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":742.757,"end":742.777,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":772.585,"end":772.605,"text":"范雲"}]}},{"id":"153049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3a213b9239cb515a3442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fe8c2a9604825a3ee05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:29:20 - 12:37:33","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":493,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:37:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:29:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":877,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時29分）謝謝主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長是古意人，早上聽你說要邀臉書的主管、LINE的主管喝咖啡，喝咖啡是好事，可是用威脅的字眼好像重了一點。"],["黃部長彥男：用錯字眼。"],["張委員啓楷：我們要修正一下。"],["黃部長彥男：修正一下，應該是說……"],["張委員啓楷：你是古意人，我看你不像會講什麼重話。"],["黃部長彥男：我在民間待太久。"],["張委員啓楷：修正一下就好，老實講，從部長嘴巴講這個話是重的，而且是個跨國公司，我們修正一下，應該說我們要勸導。"],["黃部長彥男：對，應該說力勸它們。"],["張委員啓楷：循循善誘，你是古意人，講道理的。"],["黃部長彥男：用詞不當。"],["張委員啓楷：其實詐騙這件事對臺灣傷害很大，剛才很多委員提到，臺灣人受害很嚴重，老實講我們也很憤怒，所以循循善誘，勸導它們，讓它們知道這對臺灣傷害很大，老實說這讓很多人家破人亡，甚至人命關天的事情，跟它們勸導，可是要讓它們知道臺灣人非常在意這件事情，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我們就修正完了，所以是勸導，我們沒有用威脅的，老實講你這麼古意，部長，你這輩子講過最重的話是什麼？我看你應該也很少講很重的話。"],["黃部長彥男：很少。"],["張委員啓楷：這種人你說要威脅，別人也不信，我們勸導、循循善誘，可是也要讓它知道臺灣人受害很深，請它們一定要善盡社會責任，我們就把它修正完，這件事就清楚了。"],["黃部長彥男：好，力勸。"],["張委員啓楷：臺灣有兩件事情在全世界的名聲不太好，一個是行人地獄，一個是詐騙之島，所以這件事情一定要處理。我們看一下，我統計最近10年詐騙案件的金額，103年才33億元，去（112）年的詐騙金額已經高達89億元，件數也從二萬三千多件成長到去年3萬7,000件，特別是從109年開始到112年，像沖天炮一樣，所以民怨很深。最主要在哪裡呢？其實就臉書和LINE，你要找它們喝咖啡，這兩個國際媒體很重要。部長看一下這個，左邊是陳文茜粉絲專頁，右邊是謝金河數字台灣的粉絲專頁，一般民眾有辦法判別這個是詐騙嗎？你教一下要怎麼看？"],["黃部長彥男：像我都不會被騙，你看旁邊有寫個「贊助」，我如果自己要去登，幹嘛去贊助臉書做這個事情？所以看到「贊助」兩個字就要稍微懷疑一下，因為代表有人出錢，名人不用贊助也會有人來點閱啊！"],["張委員啓楷：所以有這麼專業的部長，全國民眾都聽到部長講的就知道要怎麼辨別。陳文茜這個寫歡迎大家加入陳文茜的存股社團，右邊是謝金河，老實講詐騙也是有做功課，新能源是未來最大趨勢，需要這家電池產業資料的還要私訊跟他領取，現在經部長講了，以後大家就注意一下。另外有一個方法，大家知道藍勾勾，提醒民眾如果有藍勾勾的就是真實的帳號。不過現在比較麻煩，現在在臉書上面除了藍勾勾之外，其他像陳文茜、謝金河等等一、二十個，你把它下架之後，它又上來，所以打詐的速度還要加快一點。","這是刑事警察局所公布常常被冒名的財經專家排行榜，大家要注意一下。下一張也是很嚴重的，每天100個臺灣人裡面有16.8個人接到詐騙臉書或訊息，這個問題很嚴重，我們一起努力來解決這個問題。我剛看了覺得滿好的，部長上臺有打詐通報查詢網，打詐三箭這很好，我想全民會鼓掌，我們希望講到要做到、要落實。我跟你探討一個可能要強化的，現在在臉書詐騙上面，你們數位發展部跟臉書那邊的溝通暢不暢通？"],["黃部長彥男：還算暢通，上禮拜才跟它們溝通，更早我也跟它們……"],["張委員啓楷：有喝咖啡了？"],["黃部長彥男：有喝咖啡，後來上禮拜跟它們做專業溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：我們把它明確化，第一個，你要跟臉書或LINE很清楚說要取得假冒粉絲專頁詐騙的帳號和粉專的統計數據，它們會給嗎？到目前為止有多少這種假冒的粉絲專頁？有沒有統計數據？你跟它要，它有沒有給？"],["黃部長彥男：我在上任之前有跟它們提過，希望它們每個月給我一個數字，我會再追這個數字。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月給我們一次？"],["黃部長彥男：對，因為我要比較，所以我請它至少要秀出數目的下降。"],["張委員啓楷：很棒！以後每個月給啦！"],["黃部長彥男：會跟它索取。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜內給本席一個資料，就是過去5年有多少這種詐騙的下架。第二個，現在這種詐騙的粉專從申請到檢舉平均時間大概多久？有沒有這樣的統計？就是這個詐騙粉專從申請到被檢舉要多少時間？越長越不好嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林次長宜敬：對。報告委員，我們現在還沒有統計，但是我們這次馬上要做的，我們希望做這個統計，從它設立平臺到通報、再到檢舉、下架，把所有的時間儘量縮短。"],["張委員啓楷：我們應該要知道，越長代表被騙的人就越多，一樣一個禮拜內把資料給我。第三個資料是檢舉到封鎖的平均時間是多少？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們都去索取。"],["張委員啓楷：就這三個資料。另外一件很重要的事情，跟你們KPI有關係、跟全民有關係，你們要把這個數據放在數位發展部的網站上面公開，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再去……"],["張委員啓楷：我們觀念是一致的，打詐通報查詢網也放在上面。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，打詐通報查詢網出來的資料就是他何時來通報、我們何時送給臉書、臉書處理多久，這些資料大家都查得到，我們也會把它連結到數發部的網站，過去比較少做，因為它自己處理比較慢，就沒有整體的數字，我們3個月把這個網站做好，謝謝委員提醒，讓民眾更清楚知道，以上報告。"],["張委員啓楷：我們想法想到一塊了，很好！大家一起趕快來做，好不好？好，謝謝部長，這3個資料請在一個禮拜內給我，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。現在休息，下午1時15分繼續開會。","休息（12時37分）","繼續開會（13時15分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。我先向楊瓊瓔委員感謝，現在請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.09534375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.96846875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.668468750000002,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.085968750000003,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.12346875,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.574718750000002,"end":34.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.36659375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.31159375,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.25659375,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.29409375,"end":51.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.17909375,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.432218750000004,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":58.283468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.48221875,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.524093750000006,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.283468750000004,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.469093750000006,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.61659375000001,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.64096875,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.65784375,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.99409375,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.10346875,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.45346875,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.41096875000001,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.57096875,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.47784375,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":90.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.49346875,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.83846875,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.08721875,"end":100.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.69846875,"end":103.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.96409375,"end":105.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.02284375,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.19909375,"end":112.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.33409375000001,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.05534375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.25721875,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.59471875000001,"end":123.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.13409375,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.74159375,"end":126.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.53846875,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.53346875,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.99284375000002,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.09409375,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.21221875,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.56221875,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.32971875,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.40409375000002,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.45846875,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.69846875000002,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.06096875,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.04346875000002,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.56221875,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.28284375,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.41284375,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.94409375,"end":178.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.46721875,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.14596875,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.18784375,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.17471875,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.44409375,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.27909375000002,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.19034375,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.99596875,"end":200.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.28221875000003,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.00346875000002,"end":204.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.42909375000002,"end":216.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.46284375000002,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.52159375000002,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.92534375000002,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.97846875000002,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.48409375000003,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.15471875000003,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.49534375000002,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.71284375000002,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.22721875,"end":262.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.14221875000004,"end":260.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.52159375,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.55909375000005,"end":266.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.80784375,"end":269.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.87909375000004,"end":275.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.60784375000003,"end":280.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.59034375000005,"end":290.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.93909375000004,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.28909375,"end":293.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.66846875000005,"end":295.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.78221875,"end":304.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.82721875000004,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.67471875,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.75034375,"end":316.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.50471875,"end":319.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.63909375000003,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.57534375,"end":324.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.84096875,"end":326.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.20346875,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.12721875,"end":339.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.42659375,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.39221875000004,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.25659375000004,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.92284375,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.51346875,"end":354.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.35534375000003,"end":354.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.67159375,"end":355.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.04284375000003,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.03346875,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.69159375000004,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.39909375,"end":372.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.29346875000005,"end":378.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.08596875,"end":388.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.24596875000003,"end":380.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.26596875,"end":386.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.97846875000005,"end":394.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.02409375,"end":395.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.04096875000005,"end":396.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.69909375000003,"end":396.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.50471875000005,"end":397.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.52159375,"end":399.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.67346875000004,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.71534375000005,"end":404.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.04784375,"end":409.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.62096875000003,"end":420.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.89346875,"end":427.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.88034375,"end":424.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.57159375000003,"end":430.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.52909375,"end":430.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.66409375,"end":433.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.91284375000004,"end":443.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.74221875,"end":453.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.29471875,"end":446.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.22284375000004,"end":446.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.33159375,"end":481.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.68159375000005,"end":492.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.79096875000005,"end":483.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.11159375000005,"end":483.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.16221875,"end":483.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.24659375000005,"end":483.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.28034375000004,"end":483.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.63471875000005,"end":483.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.65159375,"end":483.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.66846875000005,"end":484.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":484.41096875000005,"end":485.60909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.60909375000006,"end":485.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.72721875,"end":486.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.58784375000005,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.97159375,"end":488.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.41034375000004,"end":488.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.11034375,"end":492.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.96659375,"end":493.50659375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":22.577,"end":23.218,"text":"請議事人員處理。請保證。"},{"start":39.526,"end":54.76,"text":"委員好我可以看你講到說要這個臉書的主管來的主管說要去喝咖啡喝咖啡好事啦可是用那個字眼說威脅好像重了一點用錯字眼我們修正一下應該是說"},{"start":58.663,"end":81.006,"text":"你這樣故意人家看起來嗎?我看你們不會講什麼重話啦我就是在民間待太久我們修正一下就好了啦其實老實講從部長嘴巴講這個話是重的而且是一個跨國公司我們把它修正一下啦其實應該就是說我們應該是要勸導嘛勸導就是說就是對啦應該是說力勸他們我們行刑三六啦對不對"},{"start":81.727,"end":82.208,"text":"對台灣傷害是很大啦"},{"start":91.97,"end":116.594,"text":"我們台灣人是受害很嚴重,我們也很憤怒。所以外面尋尋善良的勸導,而且我們也要讓人知道這個對台灣傷害很大。也就是說很多人家破人亡,甚至是人命關聯的事情。所以跟他們勸導,可是也要讓他們知道台灣人非常在意這個事情。好不好?我們就修正完了。所以一個是勸導,我們沒有用威脅的啦。"},{"start":117.114,"end":125.18,"text":"還是說你這麼說他你威脅,否定你這輩子講過最重的話是什麼?我看你應該也很少講很重的話對不對?很少很少而且這種人你說要威脅別人沒人要信啦,說實在"},{"start":127.728,"end":155.745,"text":"就是我們欠打循行善誘可是也要讓他知道臺灣人受害很深請他們一定要善盡他們的社會責任好不好我們就把它修正完了這個就很清楚了來我來看我們臺灣有兩件事情在全世界明天現在不好就是那就是行人地獄嘛再來就是詐騙之島所以這件事情一定要處理沒問題我們大家看一下我統計了最近這10年所以是10年我們詐騙案件你看那個金額啊"},{"start":156.975,"end":174.024,"text":"103年到33年到今年112這個詐騙金額已經高達89億件數啊也從這個兩萬三千多件以下成長到去年已經是三萬七千件所以老實講這個成長速度特別是不停去看有沒有有一百空高年開始"},{"start":175.438,"end":198.657,"text":"到112年那充電泡了喔所以這個明面很深明面很深齁那麼看下一張那最主要在什麼地方呢?其實是臉書跟LINE嘛就是你在找臉書這兩個國際媒體很重要來我們看一下下一張大家都可以一起來看這一張齁保定你都看了陳文謙這個粉絲專頁看蔣明、謝金河數字台灣的粉絲專頁一般民眾有辦法判別這個是詐騙嗎?"},{"start":206.443,"end":207.705,"text":"我看到兩個贊助就要稍微懷疑 因為就是要有人出錢"},{"start":225.427,"end":251.888,"text":"我自己名人,我不用贊助人也來幫我點嗎?所以我們有這個專業的部長在那,那全國民眾都會聽到部長講,就知道怎麼去辯別了。你曉陳文茜這個,欸歡迎大家加入文茜的純股社團,啊蔣文,你跟謝金河,欸老實講這個詐騙真的也有做功課啊,他說新能源是未來最大趨勢喔,那這需要這家電池產業的還要私密跟我領取。那現在聽部長講了,這個以後大家就注意一下好不好,來我們看下一張,再來。"},{"start":253.792,"end":275.348,"text":"所以另外有一個方法啦大家知道藍勾勾嘛對不對藍勾勾我們提醒民眾如果有藍勾勾的這是一個真實的帳戶現在看麻煩的你現在在臉書上面齁有藍勾勾之外其他你都成文欠了啦什麼謝金了幾堆了啦一二十個你先把它下架完之後它就又上來喔所以這個打詐的速度還要再加快一點我們來看一下這個"},{"start":277.742,"end":292.817,"text":"你看這個是最近刑事局公布的最常常被這個冒名的財經專家排行榜這個大家注意一下那我們看下一張下一張時間有限這個是很嚴重的每一天啊台灣人啊"},{"start":294.713,"end":321.3,"text":"每一天100個人沒有16.8個人接到詐騙的這個可能是臉書或者信息這個問題是很重我們看下一張我們來努力解剖這個問題我剛剛看了我是覺得蠻好的就是部長上台有這個打詐通報查詢網打詐三天這很好這個我想前面會鼓掌我們希望一定要講到要做到要落實好不好那我來跟你探討一個就是可能要強化的我們現在在臉書的詐騙上面"},{"start":323.641,"end":336.112,"text":"我的問題就是你們現在數位發展部跟臨時那邊溝通相不相通還算相通這個我們上禮拜才跟他溝通更早我有跟他喝咖啡後來上禮拜跟他們做專業溝通我們把它很明確化"},{"start":341.476,"end":343.257,"text":"我希望他以後每個月給我個數字那我會再追這個數字"},{"start":371.169,"end":371.509,"text":"第二個我要問一下"},{"start":390.014,"end":397.976,"text":"現在那個詐騙的這個粉磚啊,他會行刑到被檢舉這個平均時間大概多久?您之前有這些通過嗎?就是這個詐騙這個粉磚,一開始他會行刑到,到被檢查這個拖了多久的時間?越等越慢,對不對?報告委員,我們現在還沒有統計的,但是我們這是"},{"start":411.1,"end":427.354,"text":"我們希望做這個統計我們就是希望把這個從他設立平台到通報然後再到檢舉然後再下架把所有這些時間盡量把它縮短我們就是要知道嘛如果就是被騙的人就越多啦那你一樣一個禮拜內把這個給我好不好另外第三個資料是"},{"start":429.032,"end":440.923,"text":"檢紀告封鎖的平均時間是多長?另外做一件很重要的事情跟你們KPI有關係跟全民有關係你們要把這個數據要放在數位部的網站上面公開好不好?"},{"start":446.508,"end":457.375,"text":"我們想在一起,我們觀念是一致的,我認為我們觀念想到一起去了,你們這個打造通報查詢網請,也放在上面。委員長,這個打造通報查詢網出來,裡面就是當時來補,我們當時上過臉書,臉書處理多久,所以這個資料大家都會查詢得到,我們也會把它做在連結到我們書法部的網站,這過去比較久久了,"},{"start":468.302,"end":493.524,"text":"﹗"}]}},{"id":"153048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153048","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b392bc0e2964f074d0442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fec72e5195eda2e44e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:22:53 - 12:29:10","影片長度":"00:06:17","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":377,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:29:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:22:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時22分）謝謝昆澤召委，請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，第一次碰面，辛苦了，質詢到中午。部長上任之前接受滿多媒體的詢問，我覺得這是滿好的，跟媒體溝通，你提到有三支箭，第一支箭打詐，第二支箭數位韌性，第三支箭數位經濟。我看今天很多同仁都聚焦在打詐這方面，打詐專法也送到立法院了，打詐專法裡面有部分條文跟數發部相關，我認為數發部在討論之前應該有跟各個網路平臺溝通過，現在已經送到立法院的版本，它們的看法如何？有跟它們後續的協調嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，次長上個禮拜才跟它們開過會，請他補充說明。"],["李委員坤城：因為我認為專法裡面要求的還滿多的，第一個是落實實名制，它們在臺灣必須要有法律的代表，如果違反我們的規定會有罰鍰，最高可以到2,500萬元，甚至如果不聽的話，還有封網的規定。請教次長，它們對於我們即將推動的打詐專法的看法如何？"],["林次長宜敬：我們在上個禮拜跟幾個主要的跨國網路廣告平臺溝通。"],["李委員坤城：哪些公司？"],["林次長宜敬：Meta、Google和LINE。它們的態度算是相當配合，但是有幾件事情，第一，它們抱怨它們都是美國或日本的公司，所以它們要遵守當地母國的法律。我們也提醒它們，沒有錯，但是你們這些跨國公司到臺灣來做生意，你們就得遵守臺灣的法律。"],["李委員坤城：我們的打詐專法有違反它們母國的法令嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：應該是沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：對！所以我們就希望它們配合。另外一件事情是它們抱怨如果要改程式的話，報給母國公司，母國公司的技術團隊做改變的話可能需要18個月等等。"],["李委員坤城：我認為這都是推託之詞。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["李委員坤城：實名制的部分，現在Google有採實名制了，是不是？網路廣告的部分，有沒有？投資廣告的部分？"],["呂署長正華：政治廣告的實名制已經在施行了，網路廣告的部分，打詐專法的第三十條就規範要用電子簽章、FIDO或相關的技術做調整。"],["李委員坤城：投信投顧法其實有要求廣告要採實名制。"],["呂署長正華：那是之前打詐五法的時候，但是它就介於兩者之間，讓你來投資、加入LINE，因為我們執行一段時間，以後這種我們覺得都應該要放進來，我們也會用實名制。"],["李委員坤城：Google網路投資廣告已經採實名制了啊！"],["呂署長正華：金管會管的那部分。"],["李委員坤城：現在你們管的部分，Google、臉書、LINE都沒有？"],["呂署長正華：我們現在用行政指導，因為實名制的法還在修，到時候要拜託委員多給我們指導。"],["李委員坤城：我們一定會支持，我的意思是說就算我們通過專法，它們還要18個月的時間嗎？"],["呂署長正華：我們次長就會有很多……"],["李委員坤城：我知道又是什麼喝咖啡，喝咖啡，速度會加快嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們有提醒Meta，臉書上面的政治廣告已經要實名制了……"],["李委員坤城：早就實名制了啊！"],["林次長宜敬：我們認為它們其實不用修改程式，至少不用大幅修改，只要把現有的機制從政治性廣告擴大到投資性廣告，只是把範圍擴大而已。"],["李委員坤城：所以技術上是可行的，如果專法通過之後，大概要求它們從18個月可以降到多久採實名制？"],["黃部長彥男：如果通過之後，就會要求它們配合，如果不配合，我們當然隨時可以罰它。"],["李委員坤城：如果這樣的話，應該不用18個月的時間吧！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["李委員坤城：最快要多久？"],["黃部長彥男：我們法通過之後馬上就可以進行，如果它們不配合打詐的話，我們當然就可以隨時開罰，看法什麼時候通過，我們就什麼時候做。"],["李委員坤城：最後的時間，我再問TikTok，前部長認為TikTok是一個危害的產品，部長的看法呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我也是一樣的看法，這個東西有太多假訊息在上面，我們確實應該處理。"],["李委員坤城：TikTok應該怎麼管理呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我前面有講過，第一個，打詐專法通過之後，我們要求它落地；不落地的話，我們就看美國，如果它在美國落地的話，我們就把TikTok連到美國的TikTok，就是用美國版的TikTok。"],["李委員坤城：在臺灣要落地管理嘛！有先跟它們溝通過了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這就是我們的法令，到時候它們一定要配合。"],["李委員坤城：打詐專法通過之後，TikTok也是要落地管理嘛！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，要有法律代表或落地。"],["李委員坤城：有關假訊息的管理委員會這部分呢？我看你說想成立一個假訊息管理委員會。"],["黃部長彥男：我們剛才講所謂訊息的真假更專業，例如衛福部就衛福部，農業部就農業部，但是如果有一些訊息的真假還是需要一個委員會來審核，這個我們會來進行，不是一個人或一個部會能夠決定，應該是需要委員會。"],["李委員坤城：好啦！下次再問，因為時間有限，主席也站起來了，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員發言完畢。","現在請張啓楷委員發言。張啓楷委員發言完畢後，我們休息30分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.51846875,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.71034375,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.625343750000006,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.59909375,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.12971875000001,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.73721875000001,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.67346875000001,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.44971875,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.17034375,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.59221875,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.65909375000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.70971875000001,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.06409375000001,"end":132.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.72596875,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.10784375,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.14971875,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.58346875,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.10221875000002,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.27096875,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.28784375,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.35534375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.40596875,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.45846875,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.44534375,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.42721875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.70971875,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.11409375000002,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.19159375,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.13596875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.82784375,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.90346875,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.92034375,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.21471875,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.50971875000002,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.28159375,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.88909375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.39534375000002,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.53034375000001,"end":207.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.02346875,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.55909375000002,"end":214.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.06909375,"end":215.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.48659375000003,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.02221875,"end":218.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.78159375,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.83221875,"end":219.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.60784375,"end":223.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.88159375,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.02471875,"end":233.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.15909375,"end":236.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.06159375000001,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.07846875,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.85471875000002,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.98971875,"end":237.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.09096875,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.56346875000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.58034375000003,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.96846875000003,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.17096875000001,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.03971875000002,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.29284375,"end":241.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.69721875000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.00846875000002,"end":252.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.36659375000002,"end":255.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.71659375,"end":258.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.32784375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.38159375000004,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.49096875000004,"end":276.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.22846875,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.78096875,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.84784375000004,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.94471875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.01221875000005,"end":282.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.18909375000004,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.31409375000004,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.46034375,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.23596875000004,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.53971875,"end":308.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.55659375000005,"end":308.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.57346875,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":310.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.76721875000004,"end":312.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.89346875,"end":327.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.16971875,"end":329.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.85284375000003,"end":329.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.98784375,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.25784375,"end":334.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.08409375,"end":335.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.50596875,"end":337.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.64909375,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.84284375000004,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.19284375,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.69034375,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.30159375,"end":349.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.28034375000004,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.77784375000005,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.94846875,"end":366.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.45846875,"end":375.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.92659375000005,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.77034375000005,"end":371.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.68159375000005,"end":373.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.59284375000004,"end":375.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.95534375,"end":376.42784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.321,"end":5.451,"text":"謝謝我們坤喆召委那也請我們黃部長請部長"},{"start":12.543,"end":38.058,"text":"委員好部長好第一次碰面辛苦了這個質詢到中午這個部長剛上任之前也接受蠻多的媒體的質詢詢問我覺得這是蠻好的跟媒體做一個溝通那你提到說這一個有三件有三支件第一支件打詐第二支件數位韌性第三支件是數位經濟那我看今天很多同仁都是聚焦在打詐這方面那我們這個打詐專法也送到立法院來了那打詐專法裡面"},{"start":39.439,"end":61.794,"text":"有部分條文是跟數位發展部有相關的那我請問一下就是說當然我認為數位發展部在這個討論之前應該是有跟這個各個網路平台有溝通過那現在這個已經送到立法院的版本那他們的看法是怎麼樣有跟他們在做後續的協調嗎有那個我們這個請市長因為上禮拜才跟他們開過會這樣子他可以再補充說明對"},{"start":63.655,"end":83.765,"text":"因為我們對於這個專法裡面這個要求的我認為是還蠻多的第一個就是說要這個落實實名制然後這個他們在台灣必須要有這個法律來代表然後呢那如果這個違反我們的規定的話我們有罰款最高是到2500萬然後呢這個那甚至如果說這個不聽的話我們還有這個封網應該類似封網的這個這個這個台灣的規定嘛那請教一下次長"},{"start":92.87,"end":96.336,"text":"他們對於這個我們即將推動的打轉專法他們的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":98.98,"end":125.211,"text":"我們在上個禮拜有跟幾個主要的跨國網路廣告平台我跟他們做溝通哪些公司就是Meta還有Google還有Line他們的態度事實上算是相當配合但是有幾件事情第一個他們抱怨說他們都是美國或日本的公司所以他們要遵守當地母國的法律那我們也提醒他們說"},{"start":125.851,"end":153.264,"text":"沒有錯,但是你們這些跨國公司到臺灣來做生意你們還就得遵守臺灣的法律嗎?而且我們的這個打造專法有違反他們在母國的法律嗎?應該是沒有沒有嗎?對所以這個我們就是希望他們配合然後另外一件事情是他們有在抱怨說那個他們如果要改程式的話必須報給母國公司然後母國的公司的技術團隊去做改變的話可能需要18個月等等"},{"start":153.704,"end":169.912,"text":"我認為這是推脫啦 是就是推脫之詞啦 是我問一下現在這個實名制實名制現在是Google有寫實名制了嘛是不是網路廣告的這部分有沒有投資廣告這部分的話因為我廣告齁政治廣告的這個實名制他們也在施行了對"},{"start":171.133,"end":195.915,"text":"網絡廣告的部分我們在打詐專法的第37條我們就規範說你這時候要用電子簽章或FIDO或相關合乎的技術來去做這樣的一個調整所以這個拜託委員到時候30條才對對不起30條是實名制的部分我們在這一個投信投過法裡面其實就要求你如果是廣告的話你就必須要採實名制那個是之前打詐無法的時候對但是因為這個"},{"start":196.596,"end":215.794,"text":"﹗"},{"start":216.756,"end":237.274,"text":"臉書、LINE都沒有目前就是因為他說這個要我們現在用行政指導的部分但是因為這個實名制因為法還在修嘛所以就到時候拜託委員多給我們指導這個我們一定會支持的那我意思是說就算我們通過之後他們還要18個月的時間嗎這個我們次長就會有我知道為什麼喝咖啡啊"},{"start":237.774,"end":266.629,"text":"喝咖啡速度會加快嗎?我們有提醒Meta就是說他們現在在Meta就是臉書上面的那個政治廣告已經要實名制了所以我們是認為說我們是認為說他們其實不用修改那個程式至少不用大幅修改只要把現有的機制把它從政治性廣告擴大到那個投資性的廣告上面只是把它範圍擴大一點對啊那所以這個技術上是可行的那如果這個專法通過之後這個大概要求他們"},{"start":268.029,"end":283.135,"text":"從18個月可以降到多少?可以採釋明智?那個如果我們那個通過之後他我們就可以他要求他配合對那如果不配合我們當然隨時可以罰他就不罰他對就不罰他對好那所以如果這樣子的話他們應該不用18個月的時間吧對那那這個就是那最快呢?最快要多久?"},{"start":284.472,"end":312.328,"text":"我們法通過之後馬上就可以進行那當然就是就是如果我們就是剛剛講就是他如果不配合我們打詐的話我們當然就可以隨時法那看這個法什麼時候通過我們什麼時候好那我再問TikTok最後的時間TikTok這個這個前部長他是認為說他是一個危害的產品那我問一下部長的看法勒那個我是我也是一樣的看法就是說這個東西有太多假訊息在上面了所以對確實是我們應該處理好那這個TikTok要如何管理勒"},{"start":312.912,"end":313.572,"text":"在台灣要落地管理嗎?"},{"start":313.572,"end":314.273,"text":"有跟他們先溝通過了嗎?"},{"start":335.597,"end":336.578,"text":"關於這個假訊息的管理委員會這部分"},{"start":347.349,"end":348.069,"text":"李坤城委員官員完畢"}]}},{"id":"153047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3e0c3982bc640440c442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fe1103ba6c49e276325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:15:59 - 12:22:18","影片長度":"00:06:19","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":379,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:22:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:15:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時16分）有請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長好。過去臺灣大概是NCC管電視臺，報業有做自律，可是網路是我們最為擔心的，自律的機制一直不存在，加上現在大家對於TikTok這件事情有很多的擔憂，目前TikTok最大宗的用戶是青少年，青少年又是我們最要守護的下一代，從2023年TikTok的數據報告，大概18至24歲青少年用戶是最多的，的確它在註冊的時候有限制須滿13歲，可是在民間團體的調查中，未滿13歲的青少年實際上是有在使用的，也就是大概三、四年級的兒少就已經開始使用，請問數發部有掌握這個狀況嗎？因為既然成立了，當初民間團體對於數發部成立有非常高的期待，所以也想問一下部長對這件事情有充分掌握嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：TikTok這個問題就像我剛剛講的，它的短影音、它的內容是一個問題，後面所牽涉到的假訊息是另外一個很嚴重的問題，所以要整個一起處理。我剛剛講了，這個東西我們希望有個管理辦法，這個管理辦法將來可能會回到資安法，或者我們看美國在未來幾個月就會處理TikTok，我們會加以處理。至於訓練國人對於這樣的問題處理的方法，例如我們在教育部訂十二年的課綱會訓練兒童對媒體素養的教育，培養人民能夠有媒體、網路識讀的能力。另外，我們有一些查詢的系統，可以查詢TikTok上面訊息的……"],["林委員月琴：這個大概也要各部會一起來，不是單一部會，可是當初會成立數發部當然也是期待除了數位的發展，我常常覺得雖然科技帶來文明，但有時候同時帶來傷害，所以抖音到底對孩子有什麼危害，它的短影音本來就有一種讓人上癮的演算機制，不斷的去推下一個，甚至它本身就是一個創作者。所以歐盟2024年2月也提到要進行調查去了解包括刺激行為成癮及演算法系統，我不知道今天數發部對這個有沒有什麼因應對策？"],["黃部長彥男：我們也是跨部會合作，跟NCC等部會合作，至於TikTok的問題就如剛剛講的，我們希望未來能夠統一處理，例如由法律或者我剛講的將來這個東西可以連到美國，美國如果通過TikTok落地，我們也希望落地來管理。"],["林委員月琴：剛剛很多人講到教育部，但事實上緩不濟急，所以你可以看到這個影像當中自虐式的危險挑戰，像傷痕挑戰，歐盟去年發生這樣的事情，甚至有一些昏迷的挑戰或者瞌睡雞肉挑戰、使用鎮定劑等等，所以美國兒童醫院社工表示，因為這樣的挑戰都認為旁邊會有人救他，可是有時候來不及救，可能就造成無法挽回的傷害。甚至還有毒品的交易，甚至做一些心理測驗，讓兒少誤以為自己心理上有一些疾病狀況。數發部對於這種危險挑戰、毒品危害、健康資訊錯誤，到底有沒有什麼可以防堵的？"],["黃部長彥男：前面有提到我們會有打詐查詢通報網，將來民眾如果看到這些短影音訊息，像毒品妨害或對身體的……我們就會很快的送給衛福部，看進一步要怎麼處理，如果這個訊息確實有些不良的影響，我們當然希望能夠很快的澄清。"],["林委員月琴：前面的已經有這些問題，可是它們最新版的又推出TikTok Lite，有一個鼓勵機制可以讓你賺到錢，所以會鼓勵更多青少年更想去使用。歐盟已經對TikTok展開調查，我想問的是，未來在臺灣使用TikTok的兒少人數、樣態，數發部是不是可以掌握？而且跟著我們打詐新法的腳步，要求TikTok落地或類落地的管理，甚至TikTok Lite未來是否預計在臺執行點數獎勵計畫，數發部可否清楚掌握？"],["黃部長彥男：我想落地是我們第一個要求，落地後就可以有法律規範，例如不良的內容要下架，經過通報後，我們很快發現有問題就讓它下架，我也希望很快能夠建立這樣的機制。至於內容是不是有問題，我們會跟其他部會一起來判斷。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩數發部真的要硬起來，這對我們下一代真的影響非常深，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：了解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員發言。","張啓楷委員發言結束後休息，因為大家都非常辛苦，我也覺得12點半以後沒有讓人家吃飯都是不人性的，所以張啓楷發言完畢之後，我們會休息半個小時。","現在請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":21.765968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.15596875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.17096875,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.99971875,"end":47.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.48346875,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.41846875,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.899093750000006,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.852218750000006,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.62096875,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.43096875,"end":90.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.22346875000001,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.23534375000001,"end":136.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.65096875,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.63784375,"end":141.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.81471875,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.31221875,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.75909375,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.86284375,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.45346875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.90471875,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.37659375,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":195.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.30409375000002,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.52721875,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.45409375000003,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.49159375000002,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.02596875,"end":234.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.56471875000003,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.30659375000002,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.43659375000001,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.35471875000002,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.18034375,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.30409375,"end":278.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.12659375000004,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.63284375,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.64534375,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.42846875000004,"end":318.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.61784375,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.58221875000004,"end":340.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.68659375000004,"end":346.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.09534375000004,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.13284375,"end":350.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.54159375,"end":354.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.03471875,"end":359.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.14346875,"end":370.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.31909375000004,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.03596875000005,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.72721875,"end":380.46096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.496,"end":31.888,"text":"有請我們的部長請部長部長好事實上過去我們台灣大概在NCC管電視台然後報業也有在做自律可是事實上網路事實上是我們最為擔心的就是自律的機制一直是不存在的那加上現在就是我們大概對於"},{"start":32.304,"end":53.07,"text":"提託可至今世情我們有很多的擔憂所在下一頁那目前提託可的用戶最大宗的是青少年那青少年下一代又是我們最要守護的那從2023年提託可的數據報告大概18到24青少年的用戶事實上是最多的"},{"start":53.835,"end":61.8,"text":"的確他在註冊的時候有限制要年齡使用要需滿13歲可是我們在民間團體的調查裡邊"},{"start":63.865,"end":85.401,"text":"議員．"},{"start":86.349,"end":103.076,"text":"這個TikTok我還是想TikTok這個問題我個人是我覺得就像我剛剛講的這個TikTok就是有很多這個它的短影音它的所謂的這個內容是一個問題但是它這個後面所牽涉的假訊息是另外一個嚴重問題所以整個一起處理"},{"start":103.916,"end":124.189,"text":"﹗"},{"start":124.349,"end":124.369,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":139.736,"end":164.396,"text":"那這是另外我們有一些查詢的系統可以查詢TikTok上面的訊息的部長這個當然也是要各部會一起來不是單一可是實際上當數位成立數位發布當然也是期待除了數位的發展可是還是我常常覺得科技帶來文明可是它有時候同時帶來傷害所以抖音這件事情到底對孩子有什麼危害就是它的短影音本來就有"},{"start":165.177,"end":189.626,"text":"有一種讓人家上癮的那個演算機制不斷的去推下一個甚至他本身就是一個創作者那所以歐盟2024年大概二月份也提到說要進行一些調查去了解到說到底可能刺激行為成癮跟演算法的一些系統我不知道就是說今天訴發部到底對這個有沒有什麼樣的因應的對策"},{"start":191.411,"end":221.058,"text":"就是那個我剛就講說說那個現在就是因為這個影音這個這個這個我們暫時會是也是跨部會合作啦跟NCC等來一起合作那至於說這個TikTok這個問題就像講就是說我們希望未來能夠統一處理就是說能夠比如說有法律或者是說我們就剛講就是說如果我們將來這個東西能夠連到美國就美國如果通過TikTok落地我們也希望落地落地來管理"},{"start":221.118,"end":221.819,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":239.275,"end":258.729,"text":"﹗"},{"start":259.232,"end":276.79,"text":"做一些心理測驗還讓兒少誤以為自己心理上都有一些疾病狀況那所以我不知道就是訴發部對於這種危險挑戰毒品危害那健康資訊的錯誤到底有沒有一些可以怎麼去做防堵"},{"start":278.256,"end":305.592,"text":"對,我們前面有這樣說我們會有打詐查詢跟通報網如果大家民眾將來看到這些短的影音訊息如果不確定他剛講就是說比如說像這個毒品妨害或者是對身體的這個心理我們就會很快的送給比如說衛福部來看心理部處理如果這些訊息如果確實有一些不良的影響我們當然是希望能夠很快的再澄清或者是跟"},{"start":306.953,"end":332.272,"text":"下一頁,因為前面的已經是一個問題可是他們最新版的又推出那個TikTok Lite有一個鼓勵機制讓你可以賺到錢所以呢會鼓勵更多我們的青少年私商師會更想去做使用下一頁,那就TikTok Lite它的整個歐盟已經展開調查那我想先問的是說下一頁,這是未來"},{"start":333.618,"end":353.961,"text":"在臺灣使用TikTok的兒少人數的樣態這邊數法部是不是可以去掌握而且是不是跟著我們打造新法的腳步要求TikTok落地獲得內落地的管理甚至未來可不可以預計一下就在臺執行這種點數的獎勵計畫這邊數法部是不是也可以清楚去掌握"},{"start":354.121,"end":354.301,"text":"謝謝林月琴"}]}},{"id":"153046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b333609d870afa9f3ee6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fe2ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:01:29 - 13:08:06","影片長度":"00:06:37","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":397,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:08:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T13:01:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":844,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時1分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請鄭部長及彭署長。"],["主席：請鄭部長及彭署長，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很開心在這裡見到鄭部長，而且看到你的業務報告後，我真的更開心了！在第5頁裡我看到幾個題目，活化校園，把閒置空間變成實作空間，統一進用專長師資，集中聘用，巡迴支援，實驗中學提供員工子女及鄰里學區和實驗中學的雙語部，提升學生的英語能力，以師培大學協助教師提升雙語教學的能力。部長啊！短短一頁把我過去在教委會及過去擔任屏東縣副縣長時提出的這些非都地區的國民教育需求都一網打盡了，謝謝！但我還是要強調幾個地方，就是我在4月11日針對屏科實中的質詢，謝謝教育部的支持，除了引進太空課程之外，我希望能夠融入一個思維，也就是線上課程的遠距生。所謂的學籍生是在學區入學的稱為學籍生，因此我希望創設一個遠距生，他的學籍還在原校，但是可以用遠距的方式參與學習。","第二個是海外師資的遠距教學，我們不要只限定在國內或偏鄉的老師，採用遠距教學讓其他縣市、甚至是國外的師資也可以擔任偏鄉的老師，你覺得這個方向可以研究嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想怎麼樣去統合這個資源來提升我們人才培育的品質與機會，這個當然都是值得努力的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天我的報告是要運用偏鄉閒置校舍廣設國小附幼，十年契約教保人員比照教師薪資，你可以問署長，這是我第三次在教育委員會提出這個問題，但因為你是新來的，所以我還要很快的再講一次。其實我們的國家，尤其是在中央，對於年輕父母的托育需求，基本上是用一個方式，我們給予父母托育補助，利用民間的業者提供服務，大致的方向就是如此。","不過我仔細算了一下，嚴格來講，這個策略在六都或是在新竹市是有效的，但是如果我們把這個錢換算給非都地區的，其實你會發現，如果你去補足非都地區的幼兒園教師，它的人事費反而比他們所得到的家長補助更有效益，這邊要花120億、這邊只要花40億。其實是什麼原因呢？民間業者因為市場規模要集中在都會地區，反而偏鄉地區或非山非市它不會去，因此你會發現大部分的民間業者都集中在六都，他們並不想去非山非市的地區，所以這些地區家長的需求必須由公立的學校提供。但是目前有一個情況，在非都地區、非山非市的國小附幼沒有提供課後照顧，它不像都會地區有安親班，所以家長要採兩段式的方法，而且找不到業者，乾脆就把孩子從偏鄉送到都會地區。結果政府給他的教育補助反而被他拿到更高的地區去消費，而且國小的幼教就沒辦法維持。因為家長考量到的是私幼的幼兒園，而私幼拿到家長的補貼之後就去付更高的租金，雖然業者從家長那邊獲得了大量的補貼收入，但是錢都花在房租上，導致民間非公幼的幼教從業人員薪資普遍不高，所以我們偏鄉或非山非市的地方真的很難找到師資。","我建議一個關鍵點，我們用專案十年契約進用，這個概念是來自於國防部的基層指職軍官，基本上不讓他用軍校出來的終身職志願役軍官，而是用契約的方式來進用，是否可以考慮根據幼教法第二十二條，他可以根據勞基法來進用，在進用之後也可以做課後的照顧、可以延長課後的托育？在這種情況下，你只要給他足夠的薪水，他願意到偏鄉去服務。部長，你覺得這個方法可以考慮嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們來看要如何與地方合作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實不是地方的需求，你要溝通的其實是兩個單位，一個是主計總處、一個是人事總處，其實也不是人事總處，因為人事總處不管教師員額，教師員額是歸你主管，主計總處同不同意用十年的預算規模方式以勞基法進用一個十年的契約？有什麼好處呢？我很簡短的說一下，因為主席在看了。各地的偏鄉，包括我們屏東在內，陸續都在廢校，這些學校都有校舍，你只要把它的國小附幼從本來的國小變成全校都是國小附幼，它可以用交通車把鄰近周圍的、阿公阿嬤顧不到的、那些3歲以前的，通通接到這裡來。好處是什麼？如果你沒有留住這些偏鄉的學齡前孩子，國小一定要廢校，因為孩子在學齡前跟著阿公阿嬤顧不了，於是跟著父母去到工作地的都會區就讀，那麼他就不會回到偏鄉來唸國小了，其實偏鄉能夠提供的教育品質是很好的。","另外，我們也讓這些專案教保人員可以培養二項專長，未來可以做為國小教師的儲備軍，因為未來的國小教師會面臨到很嚴重的人才斷層，現在的平均年齡每年都在升高，為什麼？因為遇缺不補，所以會老化、會造成師培大學招不到生、也會造成流浪教師找不到工作。最後一個結論就是拜託你好好做，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。各位，這個會期將會延會，所以我們會常常請教育部來這邊，各位還是有很多機會的。現在已經是1點8分了，請各位把握時間。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.700343750000002,"end":19.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.75784375,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.54159375,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":57.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.35096875000001,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.38034375,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.21909375,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.36846875,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.59909375000001,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.14846875,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.53221875,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.24596875,"end":182.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.51284375,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.11034375,"end":211.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":222.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.27034375000002,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.36721875,"end":228.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.63659375,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.42534375000002,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.83409375000002,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.41846875000002,"end":255.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.05846875000003,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.36471875,"end":268.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.69784375,"end":270.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.36721875,"end":284.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.86409375,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.57846875,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.97409375,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.68659375000004,"end":318.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.96846875,"end":358.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.28284375000004,"end":361.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.25284375,"end":365.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.40846875,"end":384.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.83159375,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.23221875,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.73346875000004,"end":392.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.96534375000005,"end":394.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.45846875,"end":397.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.707,"end":21.481,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府基本法官員．會場工作夥伴媒體支持者女士先生．有請鄭部長和我們彭署長好鄭部長跟彭署長謝謝"},{"start":27.253,"end":39.301,"text":"部長好 署長好 很開心在這裡見到鄭部長 但是我看到您的業務報告我真的更開心了我在這第5頁裡面看到幾個題目 活化校園 把閒置空間變成實作空間 統一金融專長師資 集中聘用 然後巡迴資源"},{"start":45.284,"end":63.352,"text":"實驗中學提供員工子女及鄰里學區和實驗中學的雙語部提升學生運營能力以師培大學來協助教師提升雙語教學能力部長短短一夜把我過去在教委會跟過去在當屏東縣副縣長"},{"start":65.553,"end":83.111,"text":"這些非都地區的地方國民教育需求都一網打盡了謝謝但是我還是要強調幾個地方就是我在4月11號的時候呢針對評科時鐘謝謝我們教育部的支持我除了引進太空課程之後我希望能夠融入一個思維就線上課程有遠距生"},{"start":83.832,"end":107.039,"text":"我們的學籍生是以在學區裡面入學的學籍生我希望創設一個遠距生他的學籍還在原校但他可以用遠距的方式來參與學習第二個海外師資的遠距教學我們不要只限定在國內或偏鄉的老師用遠距教學讓其他縣市甚至國外的師資也可以來擔任偏鄉的老師您覺得這個方向可以研究嗎"},{"start":108.527,"end":117.353,"text":"我想怎麼樣去統合這個資源來提升我們的人才培育的品質跟機會這個當然都是值得努力的"},{"start":139.207,"end":139.287,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":163.473,"end":178.16,"text":"其實你會發現如果你去補足我們非都地區的幼兒園教師他所需要的差額下一頁他的人事費反而比他們所得到的家長的幼兒金補助要來得更有效益這邊要花120億這邊只要花40億再下來其實什麼原因因為公"},{"start":183.581,"end":211.128,"text":"民間業者他因為市場規模他集中在都會地區反而偏鄉地區非山非市他不會去因此你們發現大部分的民間業集中在六都往下看所以非山非市他們沒有要去所以這個地區的學家長的需求他需要公立的學校來提供再往下看但是因為我們目前有一個情況我們在非都地區非山非市的國小婦幼我們沒有提供課後照顧"},{"start":212.128,"end":232.921,"text":"所以他不像有安親班所以家長要兩段式而且找不到業者所以乾脆把孩子從偏鄉送到都會地區結果是什麼原因往下看結果政府給他教育補助他反而拿到更高的都會地區去消費而且在國小的幼教沒辦法維持再往下看"},{"start":233.942,"end":244.32,"text":"所以幼兒園的園區他考量到這是私幼的私幼拿到家長的補貼之後他去分更高的資金租金再往下看所以另外我們幼教的從業人員"},{"start":247.472,"end":266.376,"text":"民間的非公幼的幼兒園雖然業者得到了大量透過家長的補貼的這些收入但是呢錢都花在哪裡發在房租上他們的薪資普遍不高再往下看所以我們偏鄉或非山非市的地方真的很難找到私資再往下看所以我這建議一個關鍵點"},{"start":268.757,"end":296.881,"text":"我們用專案10年契約禁用這個概念是來自於國防部我們的基層職職軍官我們基本上就是不讓他用那個軍校出來的終身職的那個志願軍官我們用一個契約的方式來禁用是否可以考慮根據我們幼教法第22條他可以根據勞基法來禁用禁用之後他也可以做課後的照顧可以延長課後的托育那這種情況下你只要給他足夠的薪水"},{"start":297.461,"end":301.242,"text":"他願意到偏鄉去服務。先講到這裡。部長你覺得這個方案可以考慮嗎?我想我們來看跟地方怎麼樣來合作。其實不是地方的需求。你要溝通的其實是兩個單位。一個是主計總處。"},{"start":313.715,"end":316.919,"text":"主席總署同不同意用10年的預算規模方式去用勞基法經用一個10年的契約,那有什麼好處呢?我很簡短的說一下,因為主席在看,往下看。我們各地偏鄉,我們屏東陸續在廢校。"},{"start":333.558,"end":355.265,"text":"﹗"},{"start":355.365,"end":373.87,"text":"因為如果他在全年前跟著父母阿公阿嬤顧不了跟著父母的工作地到都會地區去寄那他就不會再回到偏鄉來念國小了反而偏鄉其實還有能提供教育品質是很好的最後一頁所以我希望說另外呢我們也讓這些專案教保人員可以培養二項專長未來可以作為我們國小教師的儲備軍因為現在我們未來的國小教師會面臨到很嚴重的人才斷層現在平均年齡每年在升高為什麼欲缺不補"},{"start":384.873,"end":384.913,"text":"好 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3f6ee337f4ef49184e6d49214c7a82f13954c766bbd88e2fef03749d7e409c8a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:55:17 - 13:01:21","影片長度":"00:06:04","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":364,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T13:01:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:55:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時55分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。今天教育部的報告特別提到族群共榮的原民教育，總共有六大項，也都非常非常的重要，但是很可惜，這裡面並沒有提到原住民教育的向上提升，希望讓部長了解，這個我已經提了很多次。","近五年原住民大專校院學生的粗在學率差距越來越大，部長，你看一下，107學年度原住民與全國的差距是31.9，現在111學年度的差距是32.4，還拉大了！中華民國憲法增修條文第十條第十二項規定，國家對原住民的教育應該要保障、扶助及發展。原住民族教育法在民國87年就制定了，其中特別提到政府應依原住民族之民族意願，保障原住民教育之權利，培育原住民所需之人才，以利原住民族的發展。原住民族教育法第二十三條規定，高級中等以上學校應保障原住民學生入學及就學的機會。剛剛看到百分之三十二點多的差距，真的是非常大！","原住民升學保障辦法，在95年的時候做了修正，向部長說明，原住民升學保障本來沒有所謂的外加，只要加分之後就可以進去，在95年改為外加2%之後，我們有很多學生就只能去讀私立大學，但是就讀私立大專校院很貴，我們的經濟又沒辦法負擔，這是很大的因素之一。","在我擔任立委之後，特別協調教育部當初修正的保障辦法，特別增加了條文，可以專案調高比例、可以專案調高比例，這個法規已經明定了。當初質詢葉俊榮部長時特別開始規劃專案調高5%，所以從108學年度開始就有專案調高5%。經過幾年之後，不斷不斷的要求，一個一個科系的增加，但是這個科系還是很少，專案調高5%的科系還是很少，所以未辦理專案調高的科系有67所學校、總共有1,102個系所。","現在有很多學校都招不足學生，為什麼不專案調高5%呢？讓我們原住民大專學生粗在學率的差距反而越來越大？在部長上任之後，第一個應該要解決的就是這個問題，對不對？大學不是要因應少子女化嗎？何況又不占一般學生的名額，對不對？現在就全部改外加嘛！依照我的建議，如果你可以修改升學保障辦法，全部外加2%改為外加5%，朝這個方向去努力，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，事實上有些資料也利用這個機會向委員報告，109學年度原住民學生的粗在學率是53.6%，到111學年度已經增加至56.5%，我想資料上也許會有一點……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：56.5，沒有錯啊！部長，根據我的資料，原住民學生在111學年度是56.5，沒有錯啊！我是以原住民與全國來做比較，顯示我們的落差是加大的意思！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員提醒。另外，關於5%的部分，我想是沒有問題的，目前在大學院校有8.38%、技專院校提供了6.62%，但是原住民學生的報考看起來遠低於我們提供的名額，所以這個部分要怎麼樣去協助原民的同學能夠更順利在大學中選擇他喜歡的相關科系，這是更細節的部分，我想我們可以來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最好的處理方式就是把升學保障辦法外加2%全部改為外加5%，如此就能解決這個問題了，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會來研議，謝謝委員指教。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：儘快，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.69659375,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.177218750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.06221875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.254718750000002,"end":30.254093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.60846875,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.12284375,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.21971875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.197843750000004,"end":42.758468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.939718750000004,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.47471875,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.900343750000005,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.727218750000006,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.99909375,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.82096875,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.94221875000001,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.13596875,"end":87.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":99.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.45409375000001,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.50846875,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.57346875,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":124.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.38284375,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.15471875000001,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.89096875,"end":143.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.99159375000002,"end":147.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.56909375,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.15471875,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.31471875,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.08659375000002,"end":158.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.87534375,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.80096875,"end":192.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.94159375,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.88221875000002,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.47221875000002,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.27346875,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.30221875,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.68596875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.19971875000002,"end":219.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.04721875,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.01721875,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.49346875,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.15534375000001,"end":231.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.38284375,"end":235.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.14596875,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.55471875,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.25471875000002,"end":244.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.01784375000003,"end":246.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.75596875000002,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.42221875,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":255.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.04159375,"end":258.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.85971875,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.91846875000005,"end":263.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.83346875,"end":270.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.87471875,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.98284375000003,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.34784375000004,"end":295.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.76534375,"end":296.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.60909375,"end":302.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.23721875,"end":300.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.58284375,"end":304.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.63346875,"end":303.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.47284375000004,"end":309.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.54034375000003,"end":306.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.39221875000004,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.74221875,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.61971875,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.36221875,"end":346.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.98971875,"end":345.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.08659375,"end":356.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.91221875,"end":355.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.08909375,"end":361.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.64596875,"end":361.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.79721875,"end":362.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.99534375,"end":363.97409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.884,"end":31.604,"text":"主席貴委員有請部長部長好今天的這個教育部的報告特別提到這個族群共榮的嚴明教育提了這個六大項都非常非常的重要但是很可惜"},{"start":33.182,"end":51.432,"text":"原住民教育的向上提升這裡面都沒有提到讓部長來了解這個我已經提了很多次近5年原住民大專校園學生的出債協力這個差距越來越大"},{"start":53.788,"end":56.69,"text":"中華民國憲法徵修條文第10條第12項規定國家對原住民的教育應該要保障、輔助及發展"},{"start":82.011,"end":99.543,"text":"原住民族教育法民國87年就制定了原住民族教育法這裡面特別提到政府因應原住民族之民族意願保障原住民教育之權利培育原住民首席的人才以利原住民族發展"},{"start":100.509,"end":125.06,"text":"原住民族教育法第23條規定高級中等以上學校應保障原住民學生入學及就學的機會剛看了那個差距32%點多這個差距真的是非常大這個原住民升學保障辦法95年的時候修正了"},{"start":126.206,"end":154.326,"text":"登部長說明嚮明的生血保障本來沒有所謂的外加只要加分之後就可以進去那因為後來95年改為外加之後外加2%所以我們很多的學生就去念私立的大學私立的大專校院去念的話就很貴我們的經濟又沒有辦法負擔這是一個很大的因素之一那我們看所以我在這個"},{"start":157.33,"end":174.408,"text":"當立委之後特別協調教育部當初修正了這個保障辦法特別提高特別增加了條文可以專案調高比例可以專案調高比例這法律法規已經明定了"},{"start":175.831,"end":181.693,"text":"當初質詢葉俊隆部長特別開始規劃專案調高5%所以從108年協連度開始就有專案調高5%經過幾年之後不斷不斷的要求一個一個增加科系但是這個科系還是很少"},{"start":203.305,"end":230.91,"text":"啊,專案調高百分之五的科系還是很少所以為辦理專案調高的科系有整個學校有67所總共1102個系所現在很多的學校啊都招不招不足學生啊為什麼不專案調高百分之五呢讓我們整個"},{"start":232.458,"end":259.596,"text":"原住民大專學生的出債協力的差距反而越來越大這個是部長你上任之後應該第一個要去解決的是這個問題對不對大學不是現在找子女化嗎為什麼不讓我們我們何況也不占一般的學生的名額啊對不對現在就外加都全部改外加嘛所有的建議"},{"start":260.93,"end":261.03,"text":"議員提醒"},{"start":281.058,"end":289.028,"text":"言住民學生他的在學出在學歷事實上是53.6%到11一學年度已經增加到56.5%我想這一個可能資料上也許會56.5%沒有錯"},{"start":296.67,"end":296.83,"text":"那另外﹖"},{"start":313.558,"end":328.009,"text":"這個5%這個部分我想那是沒有問題目前我們在大學院校有8.38%然後計算院校提供6.62%但是我們原住民學生看起來報考演第一"},{"start":328.729,"end":351.058,"text":"我們這個提供的名額所以這個部分我想怎麼樣去協助顏名的同學能夠更順利的在這個大學裡面他選擇他喜歡的相關科系我想這比較更細節的部分我想我們可以來我的最好的處理方式就是把升學保障辦法"},{"start":351.678,"end":351.698,"text":"謝謝兩位"}]}},{"id":"153044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3aa362f885e82e778e6d49214c7a82f137ee5f66fe6bcf275e2e11a24dcffeb0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:48:08 - 12:55:12","影片長度":"00:07:04","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":424,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:55:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:48:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時48分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：謝謝，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是我過去九年來關心的事情，我只有4分鐘！新任的部長，過去我們也都有很多的對話，現在我聚焦在高教的部分，國教的部分在未來也會再就教於你。高教部分的四大重點，我會提出重點，未來希望你逐一列入重要的施政方針，後續我也會逐一與你繼續討論推進。","第一個就是國際教育專法的立法。第二個是思瑤倡議很久，謝謝大家現在都跟上來的校園心輔制度全面提升。第三個也是吳思瑤發起的新宿舍運動2.0，好還要更好。第四個就是催生青年基本法的立法，思瑤也是立法院第一個推出專法的立委，我會持續與大家合作。","以我對你的長期觀察，發現你有很多理念與我長期的倡議很一致，譬如我一直說大學退場之外的整併有三種方式，公私併，不要放棄這樣的可行性。第二個，我一直說臺灣要作為國際教育很重要的國家，而你今年也率領中山大學去美國與美國4校簽訂MOU，作為大學校長的鄭英耀你都做得很到位，現在你的身分轉變為部長，擁有更大的能量，所以我再次提出……不好意思！因為今天我只能講述我的重點，可能要請你會後再去研議。","三箭齊發，高教的轉型，第一端當然是退場與整併，我們已經針對退場立法，正在進行。整併的部分，公併公、私併私都有一些案例，至於公併私，我希望鄭英耀部長可以依你過去鄭英耀校長時的一些倡議，持續不放棄去研議所有的可行性，它畢竟是一個solution、一種可行性。第二，請看右下角，也就是回流教育與終身學習，它是我們開放式大學雙軌推動很重要的一個方向，也要持續去做，我認為過去只做了一半，沒有持續的大破大立。第三軌就是發揮臺灣國際教育以及海外學習，無論是input或output，我們都有很大的能量，所以要催生國際教育的專法。以上是對高教轉型的三箭齊發，缺一不可，請你記錄下來。","臺灣可以利用教育成為在世界國家以軟實力輸出的一個國家新品牌，有很多的理由，我在會後都會提供給你。過去的國際教育專法推了四年多，「袂振袂動」，連一個嘗試推出的立法都沒有，你個人覺得有沒有這個必要？有沒有這個可行性？部長，國際教育專法？"],["鄭部長英耀：國際專法是不是要設置，我的看法就是怎麼樣支持我們的大學在國際學術交流上能夠達到正向的一個……我想我們會全力支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長，我先點出來，這裡綜整出我認為臺灣需要一部國際教育專法的很多理由，希望後續也能夠有專案報告，到時候我們再進一步論述，請你記錄下來，好嗎？","再來要謝謝你，我在2022年10月20日率先質詢所有的公立大學校長，首先倡議要進行大學的心理假，而中山大學就是第一個在思瑤尚未質詢前就先做的學校，你們與實踐。這幾年來學生踴躍的倡議發聲，從當初我質詢前的2校到現在有43校，非常好！持續支持各大學推進。高中的部分也已經向下延伸，目前有42校試辦，在高中端稱為身心調適假，也請部長持續協助，好嗎？這個時間很急迫，我的壓力好大，所以我也需要身心調適假。","提醒你，學生輔導法未修之前，我們用預算來補貼，目前國立學校21校、私立大學51校，已經能夠做到1：900的員額，未修法前有國立大學13校、私立大學28校，做到1：1000，換言之，還有二成多的學校沒有跟上來，繼續去follow它，好嗎？這是我對於大學心輔制度的一個完整論述，也會一併提供給新任部長持續來推動。","新宿舍運動目前加入的大學有65%，我們四箭齊發，從1.0到2.0，請部長持續支持新宿舍運動2.0、持續擴大學生的參與，讓使用者的需求可以被實踐。那麼要提點你，我爭取了第一次的5年50億是1.0，而陳建仁院長同意2.0編列5年33億，我希望你能有幾個精進的做法，請看最下方，從一校一案要延伸到一校多案，有些學校不是只有一棟宿舍嘛！第二個，經費的加碼從每床4.2萬提升到5.2萬，這是因為公共工程的經費提升。第三個，從改善公共空間到進入寢室空間的改善。最後一個，多元功能的置入，包括心輔諮商的功能可不可以在宿舍實踐，性別友善與育兒友善也要在各校實踐。這些等於都是加分題，只要各校提出這樣的方案，它就可以通過審查小組，願意pass的話，它就可以獲得國家的補助。","好，我知道主席站起來了，現在我只講到第三題。","部長，國際教育專法、高教的三箭（整併退場、國際教育以及回流教育），一定要在你的手上做。第二個，整個心輔制度的更完備，除了心理假及學生輔導法諮商人力的提升，還包括心輔空間軟硬體的總盤點。第三個就是我說的新宿舍運動從1.0到2.0有更多要再精進的地方。第四個是青年基本法，我們下一次再來討論，好嗎？","謝謝主席給我時間，我們後續再來追蹤，今天就一併將思瑤關切的議題一次先提供給你一部分，只是一小部分，後續我們再來討論，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我有讓你充分表達，所以我很民主，好不好？謝謝。也謝謝部長。","接下來請鄭天財委員，同樣的時間，4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.16159375,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.26159375,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.64409375,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.660968750000002,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.605968750000002,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.22284375000001,"end":135.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.25846875000002,"end":165.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.69284375,"end":182.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.61409375000002,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.82909375,"end":192.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.81096875,"end":193.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.51971875,"end":194.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.78096875,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.98346875000001,"end":209.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.83784375000002,"end":213.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.87096875,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.44846875,"end":303.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.32534375,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.90034375000005,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.12784375,"end":411.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.16909375,"end":412.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.21534375000005,"end":419.79659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.47,"end":0.49,"text":"時間4分鐘"},{"start":19.489,"end":39.355,"text":"這個是我過去9年關心的事情我只有4分鐘新任的部長我想我們過去也都有很多對話那我聚焦在高教的部分未來國教會再受教育您高教部分四大重點我會提出重點未來逐一希望您列入重要的實證方針我會逐一在後續繼續來跟您來討論推進第一個就是國際教育專法的立法"},{"start":46.337,"end":67.253,"text":"第2個是思瑤倡議很久那謝謝大家現在都跟上來了校園新輔制度的全面提升第3個也是吳思瑤發起的新宿舍運動2.0好還要更好第4個就是催生青年基本法的立法思瑤也是立法院第1個來推出專法的立委我會持續來跟大家合作下一頁"},{"start":68.274,"end":68.294,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":87.847,"end":106.096,"text":"再往美國區域由中山大學跟美國四校來簽訂MOU您作為大學校長的鄭英耀都做得很到位現在您的身份轉變為部長下一頁有更大的能量所以我再次提出不好意思我今天只能夠講述我的重點可能您再回去會後做研議"},{"start":107.236,"end":133.823,"text":"三件齊發高教的轉型第一端當然是退場跟整病所以退場我們已經立法在進行整病的部分公病公私病私都有一些案例公病私我希望鄭英耀部長可以依您過去鄭英耀校長的一些倡議持續不放棄去研議所有的可行性他畢竟是一個solution一種可行性第二請看我右下角來回來也就是"},{"start":137.318,"end":163.846,"text":"回流教育跟終生學習是我們開放式大學雙軌推動很重要的一個方向也要持續去做我認為過去只做了一半沒有持續的大破大立第三軌就是發揮臺灣國際教育以及海外學習不管input或output我們都有很大的能量所以催生國際教育的專法這是對於高教轉型的三件啟發缺一不可請您記錄下來好下頁"},{"start":165.866,"end":180.891,"text":"所以台灣可以利用教育來成為在世界國家軟實力輸出的以教育成為一個國家新品牌有很多的理由我會後都會提供給您我想這請您過去的國際教育專法推了4年多沒頂沒擋連一個嘗試推出的立法都沒有您個人覺得有沒有這個必要有沒有這個可行性下一頁部長國際教育專法"},{"start":195.742,"end":213.184,"text":"我想跟委員報告國際專法是不是要這個設置在我的看法就是怎麼樣去支持我們大學在國際教育上國際學術交流上能夠達到一個正向的銀河我想我們會全力來支持"},{"start":213.925,"end":224.653,"text":"部長我先點出來我這裡總整出我認為臺灣需要一部國際教育專法的很多理由我希望後續也能夠有專案報告我們再進一步來論述請您記錄下來好嗎好下一頁再來謝謝您我在2022年10月20率先質詢所有的公立大學校長首先倡議要來進行大學的心理駕而中山大學就是第一個司要還沒質詢就先做了你們跟實踐好下一頁"},{"start":242.365,"end":269.182,"text":"所以這幾年來學生踴躍的來倡議發聲下一頁所以呢從當初我質詢前的兩校現在有43校非常好持續來支持各大學推進好下一頁那高中已經向下延伸了目前42個學校來試辦那高中端叫做身心調適下也請部長持續來協助好嗎這時間很急迫啊這個我壓力好大我需要身心調適下好下一頁"},{"start":271.516,"end":280.501,"text":"提醒您學生輔導法未修之前我們用預算來補貼目前國立學校21校私立大學51校已經能夠做到1比900的緣額未修法前有國立大學13校私立大學28校做到1比1000換言之還有三兩成多的學校沒有跟上來繼續去follow他好嗎ok好下一頁"},{"start":294.788,"end":307.263,"text":"這是我整體對於大學新府制度的一個完整論述我也會一併提供給新任部長好持續來推動好下一頁那新宿舍運動目前加入的大學是65%我們4件起發從1.0到2.0下一頁"},{"start":312.89,"end":328.702,"text":"我請部長持續支持新宿舍運動的2.0持續擴大學生的參與讓使用者的需求可以被實踐好下一頁那麼要提點給您的就是我爭取了第一次的五年五十億是1.02.0陳建仁院長同意編列五年33億我希望您有幾個精進的做法請看最下方就是從一校一案要延伸到一校多案有些學校不是只有一棟宿舍嗎"},{"start":340.45,"end":366.291,"text":"第2個經費的加碼從本每床4.2萬提升到5.2萬第三個那是因為公共工程的這個經費提升第三個從改善公共空間到進入寢室空間的改善最後一個多元功能的置入包括心腹諮商的功能可不可以在宿舍實踐性別友善跟育兒友善要在各校實踐這些等於都是加分題只要各校提出這樣的方案他就可以通過審查小組願意"},{"start":368.473,"end":370.696,"text":"國際教育專法高校的三件整病退場國際教育以及回流教育一定要在您手上做"},{"start":383.692,"end":383.712,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":413.266,"end":413.988,"text":"我有讓你充分表達所以我很民主好不好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3bc60f089c0ad1e485186e4a1bc6f964e7ee5f66fe6bcf27559a766c9ad8cead35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:46:55 - 12:53:33","影片長度":"00:06:38","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":398,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:53:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:46:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.705343750000001,"end":6.122843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.202843750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.083468750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.33596875,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.36034375000001,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.91159375000001,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.65909375,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.46409375000002,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.69596875000002,"end":146.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.32034375,"end":146.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.01221875000002,"end":156.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.02471875,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.44534375,"end":156.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.69846875000002,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.78284375,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.96409375000002,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.96221875,"end":169.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":170.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.01284375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.02971875,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.08034375,"end":190.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.46534375000002,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.53659375,"end":195.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.39284375000003,"end":210.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.20471875,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.28471875000002,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.55846875,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.30909375000002,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.96221875,"end":224.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.75534375,"end":239.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.43659375000001,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.77409375000002,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.33909375000002,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.86534375000002,"end":251.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.81284375,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.19159375000004,"end":268.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.66409375,"end":282.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.98346875000004,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.26221875000005,"end":322.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.59909375,"end":307.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.30159375,"end":320.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.47846875000005,"end":325.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.75221875,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.08471875000004,"end":331.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.40534375000004,"end":332.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.11409375,"end":338.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.08346875,"end":342.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.98159375,"end":345.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.20471875000004,"end":393.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.65409375,"end":387.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.97846875000005,"end":390.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.72909375,"end":394.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.42471875,"end":398.56784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.247,"end":27.946,"text":"謝謝。我請何部長。好,請何部長。很好。謝謝部長。部長辛苦了喔。因為我今天時間不是太長喔。我就直接就我的問題問。我們現在過去民進黨執政了八年喔。你也都在部會當中喔。我們都特別關注少子女化的問題。之前許部長是女性,你又是女性喔。"},{"start":28.166,"end":51.095,"text":"所以我希望在這一塊有多一點的琢磨。特別是我們過去賴總統也好蔡總統也好我們都關注少子女化的問題但是我非常遺憾的就是說這一次賴清德賴總統在520的就職演說當中其實只有清苗旦寫到托育長照設宅的政策要延續但是對於我們現在今年內政部公布10號公布的這個月公布的我們現在的死亡數"},{"start":57.677,"end":76.406,"text":"事實上已經高於出生數就是說過去40個月都是如此所以我們整體台灣現在是生不如死在台灣是生不如死但是我非常遺憾就是說看到賴總統他對於少子女化的問題他著墨比較多的"},{"start":76.766,"end":76.926,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":106.488,"end":134.306,"text":"去思考我們下一代、下下一代我們如何增加我們的勞動率否則的話我們社會福利政策負擔會非常的重那我們都知道部長我長期有關注你也是女性我也是女性產假的部分我們到底要怎麼處理之前我問許部長他有一定的想法但是過去幾年他沒有機會往前再跨一步部長你對於我們剩下產假的延長在OECD國家我們產假現在的八週其實都是在落後當中"},{"start":135.247,"end":155.138,"text":"議員,就是我很肯定就是大家對於這個產價延長的這樣子的...議員,就是我很肯定就是大家對於這個產價延長的這樣子的...議員,就是我很肯定就是大家對於這個產價延長的這樣子的... 你的看法。你不用肯定我們。 你的看法。你不用肯定我們。 你的看法。 我當然我也期待說當然能夠這麼做。 我當然我也期待說當然能夠這麼做。 我當然我也期待說當然能夠這麼做。 可是就是說我們必須要審慎的來考慮這一點。 我當然我也期待說當然能夠這麼做。 可是就是說我們必須要審慎的來考慮這一點。"},{"start":157.819,"end":182.818,"text":"你的考慮你是要你在哪些階段要做哪些事情我才可以看到就是有往前進一步的跨你永遠在你的部會裡面考慮你沒有往前跨一步這個時間就沒有進程你到底有哪些挑戰哪些阻礙你也要讓外界知道否則我就覺得說你關在你部會裡面這件事情連努力都沒有努力我們必須要對少子女化的政策對外有一個交代包括外界婦女想要結婚"},{"start":184.739,"end":210.207,"text":"關於產駕的部分到底台灣的八周有沒有機會延長到十周十二周甚至十四周然後產駕的公共化政策你的態度想法是什麼我覺得這幾年從許部長到我不知道你會不會怎麼做但是都在原地踏步對外界我們也沒有一個公聽會會遇到哪些挑戰我都沒有看到任何的數據資料出來所以我都會覺得你們沒有努力"},{"start":211.26,"end":238.311,"text":"那賴總統到底支不支持這件事情?我們未來努力的方向要不要持續的做?我們可以來評估啦,積極來評估好不好委員?就是說主要是過去有評估了許部長擔任幾年?四年還是五年?至少七年吧?七年吧?那你要怎麼評估?評估幾年?你的手段要多久?你的策略工具要多久?你的工具在哪裡?策略在哪裡?你要找哪些人來討論?"},{"start":239.691,"end":265.622,"text":"我至少要對外界我可以看得到嘛你至少產業界來開會產官學界來開我至少看到你有在動嘛否則你就是在裡面評估評估我就不要動不要動不要動所以我們現在產價8周是民國工廠法那時候民國18年有的8周到現在都已經都已經100年前的政策18年那時候18年前民國18年我們就是產價8周我們現在還在8周欸"},{"start":268.203,"end":281.628,"text":"委員其實我剛有說明我們要包括安胎假30天半薪產檢假一周有薪這個都過去產假8周總共大概15周了外界對於這些事我覺得還是要往前跨一步包括在產假的檢查現在只有7天我們的公費的檢查總共有14次所以無論是"},{"start":297.014,"end":297.054,"text":"議員：李彥秀"},{"start":322.483,"end":338.541,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":339.104,"end":364.804,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":365.104,"end":392.811,"text":" ﹖這才是我覺得我們在長照部分我覺得都要都都都要都都可以面面俱到的地方好不好那我的產價少子女化的部分我不希望只有賴清德總統停留在這個托育的政策上面我覺得應該是從解決更友善的這個生產環境開始去做處理好不好我期待看到你有一個比較完整的說明政策出來還有期程到底要怎麼做好不好謝謝部長"},{"start":396.52,"end":398.098,"text":"好,謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"153042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b33b9ceb00fc1d1e895186e4a1bc6f964e7ee5f66fe6bcf27554ed8f2ce0dbea445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:32:10 - 12:46:48","影片長度":"00:14:38","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":878,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:46:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:32:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.14409375,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.59534375,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.864093750000002,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.927218750000002,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.87034375,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.827843750000003,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.017218750000005,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.025343750000005,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":37.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.28659375,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.07534375,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.23971875,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.58534375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.96909375,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.268468750000004,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.02159375,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.35409375,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.40034375,"end":66.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.94034375000001,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.02846875,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.73721875000001,"end":92.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.72096875000001,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.11721875,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.10409375,"end":100.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.11221875000001,"end":102.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.83346875000001,"end":108.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.12846875000001,"end":105.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.09784375000001,"end":135.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.67221875,"end":137.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.37659375,"end":139.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.75596875000002,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.69659375,"end":163.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.88721875000002,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.12221875,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.92346875,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.01409375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.59159375000002,"end":203.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.62784375,"end":213.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.32659375,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.04346875000002,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.66284375,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.81221875,"end":267.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.85846875000004,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.31409375000004,"end":271.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.11096875000004,"end":275.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.70096875,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.05471875,"end":285.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.86471875,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.34096875,"end":284.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.91034375000004,"end":286.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.23096875000005,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.66534375000003,"end":294.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.10721875,"end":295.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.72721875,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.76471875000004,"end":300.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.97534375000004,"end":306.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.80596875000003,"end":307.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.62846875,"end":309.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.80971875,"end":312.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.33221875000004,"end":315.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.62284375,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.16096875,"end":333.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.90284375000005,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.82534375,"end":348.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.72346875,"end":357.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.29159375,"end":379.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.90409375,"end":380.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.37659375000004,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.93346875000003,"end":383.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.17346875000004,"end":389.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.43846875,"end":396.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.61534375,"end":391.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.91909375,"end":392.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.69471875000005,"end":403.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.49971875,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.92159375,"end":403.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.49534375,"end":404.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.81596875,"end":403.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.13659375000003,"end":404.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.25471875000005,"end":414.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.35596875000005,"end":404.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.05909375000005,"end":414.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.37971875000005,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.83909375,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.18471875,"end":426.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.58034375000005,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.88346875,"end":432.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.17034375000003,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.78159375,"end":437.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.43909375000004,"end":446.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.13846875,"end":455.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.87534375,"end":457.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.06909375000004,"end":460.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.22909375,"end":460.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.61721875,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.49471875,"end":464.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.66721875,"end":466.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.36721875,"end":470.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.01221875000005,"end":472.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.30284375,"end":475.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.97346875000005,"end":476.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.15471875000003,"end":477.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.84659375,"end":486.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.48659375000005,"end":493.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.62471875000006,"end":498.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.70409375,"end":501.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.33221875000004,"end":507.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.67721875,"end":511.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.41096875000005,"end":511.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.0690937500001,"end":513.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.57096875,"end":515.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.08534375,"end":517.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.17784375,"end":518.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.7009687500001,"end":520.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.87784375,"end":523.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.13471875,"end":525.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.51846875,"end":526.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.30721875,"end":528.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.5303437499999,"end":531.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.67346875,"end":534.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.0190937500001,"end":536.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.0947187500001,"end":538.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.5459687499999,"end":539.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.5247187500001,"end":540.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.67221875,"end":541.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.5834687500001,"end":543.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.91221875,"end":544.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.4184687500001,"end":545.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.3715937500001,"end":547.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.3503437500001,"end":549.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.38784375,"end":552.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.40034375,"end":556.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.12534375,"end":560.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.34409375,"end":573.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.9834687499999,"end":577.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.7084687500001,"end":581.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.64471875,"end":583.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.5009687500001,"end":586.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.82534375,"end":590.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.16659375,"end":592.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.6640937500001,"end":600.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.59534375,"end":602.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.3503437500001,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.63659375,"end":608.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.5053437500001,"end":611.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.41221875,"end":613.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.09534375,"end":615.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.81659375,"end":616.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.0947187500001,"end":623.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.8953437499999,"end":627.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.5615937499999,"end":627.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.20284375,"end":632.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.51846875,"end":635.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.79659375,"end":637.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.87221875,"end":645.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.0690937500001,"end":647.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.2334687499999,"end":650.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.2922187500001,"end":651.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.21596875,"end":655.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.2322187500001,"end":657.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.8859687500001,"end":662.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.31971875,"end":673.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.11971875,"end":674.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.87909375,"end":681.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.2703437499999,"end":685.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.4384687500001,"end":687.0122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.38346875,"end":689.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.72909375,"end":696.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.4284687500001,"end":706.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.8740937500002,"end":713.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.8603437500001,"end":717.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.64034375,"end":718.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.0578437500001,"end":720.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.8803437500001,"end":722.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.2934687500001,"end":725.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.63471875,"end":728.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.6259687500001,"end":730.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.3047187500001,"end":733.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.60409375,"end":734.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.2747187500001,"end":736.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.5190937500001,"end":739.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.52284375,"end":741.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.6997187500001,"end":744.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.5053437500001,"end":746.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.96909375,"end":747.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.6440937500001,"end":748.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.4240937500001,"end":752.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.33534375,"end":753.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.75284375,"end":754.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.38534375,"end":757.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.92471875,"end":771.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.41659375,"end":775.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.3315937500001,"end":780.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.6472187500001,"end":786.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.37221875,"end":799.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.3490937500001,"end":800.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.3615937500001,"end":802.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.5890937500001,"end":803.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.05284375,"end":805.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.23409375,"end":806.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.7065937500001,"end":815.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.8359687500001,"end":817.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.0634687500001,"end":818.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.68346875,"end":821.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.82659375,"end":822.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.2947187500001,"end":824.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.4209687500002,"end":826.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.48409375,"end":829.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.39909375,"end":832.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.04846875,"end":838.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.5834687500001,"end":840.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":841.9922187500001,"end":845.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.54846875,"end":847.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.2022187500002,"end":852.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.83846875,"end":854.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":854.9522187500002,"end":856.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.7747187500001,"end":857.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.2765937500001,"end":860.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":860.2509687500001,"end":863.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.7734687500001,"end":865.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":865.93784375,"end":867.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":868.7222187500001,"end":869.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":869.6672187500001,"end":870.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.3840937500001,"end":873.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.14346875,"end":873.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.1897187500001,"end":874.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":875.08409375,"end":875.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":876.11346875,"end":876.90659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.514,"end":28.964,"text":"好,謝謝主席。也特別感謝主席今天特別排這個案,就是80歲以上免這個巴士量表的評估。我想基本上這個是當然也是要支持,但是免巴士量表的評估在這個界限在80歲以上,我覺得這個是要被討論的。因為為什麼當時要訂這個巴士量表?"},{"start":34.322,"end":41.951,"text":"這個公部門要講清楚那現在把它拿掉第一個要把它拿掉免評估第二個八十歲以上這個界限為什麼這麼晃"},{"start":46.311,"end":70.883,"text":"因為因為我我要謝謝趙偉特意排這個案但是趙偉特別特別提到嘛齁台灣人的平均餘命應該是70多到80幾嘛齁那這個女性的功德做得比較比較多所以女性都活得比男性久一點長壽一點所以男性還不及到80歲那這樣有沒有歧視男性對不對"},{"start":72.548,"end":100.07,"text":"這個大家討論啦,我是希望大家來把這個事情要慎重的來面對。那我現在要提到就是說,公部門有沒有去說明清楚當時為什麼要訂這個巴士量表,透過醫師的評估,然後還有加上任何什麼樣的條件,他才可以來提出申請這個外籍的看護工。我今天完全沒有聽到。那是不是要衛福部先來做一個說明?啊現在這個取消掉,"},{"start":101.559,"end":103.885,"text":"你們的看法是什麼?反而勞動部應該是在第二個階段再來談的。"},{"start":112.425,"end":141.237,"text":"好謝謝委員那我們有機會把這件事情可以說清楚那確實就陳委員剛剛提的年齡到底要怎麼切那為什麼過往會有一些專業的這個評估那其實回過頭來就是看聘請家戶裡面聘請外籍家庭看護工到底聘進來是要做什麼事情所以在我們的看法是需要這個長輩需要有照顧的需求"},{"start":142.097,"end":163.065,"text":"委員會有需要衍生出,尤其他的照顧是要密集的照顧,因為重度的照顧依賴,所以才會設計變成是這種24小時引進一名人力來陪在旁邊隨時提供一些服務。所以概念上是這樣來的,所以才會有衍生。那什麼樣的老人"},{"start":163.965,"end":190.882,"text":"他基本上來判定他是有完全依賴嚴重依賴那這個時候就是我們也參考了這個國際的這樣的一個通用的量表就是大家俗稱的巴士量吧可是他事實上他是我們這整個由醫療團隊去執行的一個副表他真正的表是所謂的他要由醫療團隊來處理就叫病證病證及失能診斷證明"},{"start":192.623,"end":194.607,"text":"一聲開的是這個一聲開的是這個一聲開的是這個一聲開的是這個一聲開的是這個"},{"start":205.011,"end":233.04,"text":"一些疾病有列了一、二十項的疾病由疾病的這個變化出來需要的密集照顧的來判定所以基本上才會由交給醫療團隊而且過往比較嚴的是要公告就是由勞動部這邊我們提供的醫院名單給勞動部公告可是我們其實已經在這個之前就已經開放到診所也可以"},{"start":233.44,"end":238.183,"text":"所以現階段開放出來可以來執行這個所謂的病證及這個虛能診斷證明的醫療團隊醫療院所是235家診所是625家"},{"start":263.42,"end":285.974,"text":"第二還要有病证及施能诊斷书。對,那個是一個只有醫生能做的疾病诊斷书。所以今天如果把巴士量表拿掉,不需要巴士量表,它是不是還要有病证及施能诊斷證明書,才可以提出外籍考慮申請。巴士量表是副表,真正的是那個診斷書,判定是那個診斷書。"},{"start":288.055,"end":314.91,"text":"所以今天不能讓外界感覺到我們把巴斯亮表整個免評估取消掉之後那需求者他就可以馬上去申請外籍客戶工嗎?我是可以這麼講嗎?這個部分可能就是要看那個法規的文字是怎麼了?你怎麼可以打我這種問題?因為整個呢?你是主管機關法規的文字怎麼說你現在講清楚啊你今天來備選你應該就準備好了啊"},{"start":317.093,"end":346.004,"text":"呃...就...就未復...今天稍微排這個案就很清楚明確的就80歲以上要免這一個巴斯量表的評估讓需求者不管他是健康也健康他都可以提出外籍看護工的申請喔最主要是要做這件事情非常明確嘛那如果今天巴斯量表拿掉免評估之後你必須還有疾病及私人相關的診斷證明才可以提出外籍看護工的申請"},{"start":346.824,"end":375.678,"text":"這你必須要講得清楚嗎?跟委員報告因為現在各委員提出的版本都是把醫療的專業評估拿掉而不是拿掉巴氏量表但是今天的主題是要講這個相關委員的版本有要把這個診斷證明私人疾病的診斷證明拿掉這是另外一回事但是外界會感覺當時在選舉的過程裡面講的是80歲以上的這些需求者為什麼還要巴氏量表的評估"},{"start":376.358,"end":394.251,"text":"所以今天召委才排這個案。我講這樣應該沒有錯了。對不對?那如果今天把報審量表的評估拿掉了,還有所謂的疾病及失能的診斷證明,你才可以去申請外籍看護工。這個你公部門要講得非常清楚啊。不是現在委員提的版本怎麼樣怎麼樣啊,還沒有審啊,還不曉得啊。"},{"start":396.715,"end":407.218,"text":"市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛只是在強調現況。市長,我剛剛"},{"start":414.56,"end":434.091,"text":"真正專業評估醫療團的專業評估做的是這個病症暨失能診斷證明書。對嘛,所以你今天要處理的就會變成說不只把巴斯量表評估拿掉免評,叫免評嘛,對不對?你是不是連疾病及相關的失能證明同盟公要拿掉?對。今天是變成要處理到這個呢?這個層次的喔?好,那問題來了,那為什麼是80歲以上?"},{"start":439.662,"end":459.803,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛才提那個年齡應該不是一個主要考量的而是要考量他的照顧需求對所以這個我們要跟外界講清楚嘛不然到時候我們這些委員大家在共同集思廣益的情況之下要為人民謀取更便利的請到外籍看護工結果我們搞不清楚"},{"start":461.57,"end":489.678,"text":"只針對80歲以上我剛剛講的這是常委提供的數據嘛台灣人平均餘命女性就大過於男性男性就不及到80歲那所有這些男性都不用請了都不用請了嘛然後再來衛福部的相關資料在網站上公告是80歲以上的私人佔比是32.68啦故有照顧的需求者是29萬29萬喔那現在我們有效聘僱的外籍看護士"},{"start":490.765,"end":507.097,"text":"呃,家庭看護工是18萬。這18萬是,是含在,呃,含,含,呃,對不起,不含機構,再加2萬。現在就已經有照顧需求者就已經不足9萬了喔。依照務部提供的資料已經不足9萬了。80歲以上喔。那你現在全部開放之後,會變成怎麼樣?變成用最高的推估啦。"},{"start":513.655,"end":523.021,"text":"就是移工人數可能要高達全原有的需求是29萬到這個等於88.7萬扩掉29萬換算加起來要將近要到72萬左右要到72萬左右好那你現在又有讓這些重度的重症的還有輕度的"},{"start":539.018,"end":560.376,"text":"這些失智症的病患也可以來申請外籍看護工嘛,對不對?好,那個表格秀出來給大家看嘛。這些,這些不需要80歲以上吧?不需要嘛。這些目前為止有申請外籍看護工的占比是多少?人數是多少?你們應該手上都有資料嘛。"},{"start":561.414,"end":577.652,"text":"我現在是要跟大家講說供給跟需求我們要講清楚嘛我們要理解清楚嘛齁因為剛剛有很多委員也特別提到這個方向大家來努力沒有錯啦但是會產生什麼樣的效果這效果是好的效果還是反效果"},{"start":578.912,"end":601.029,"text":"會不會再排擠到這些需求者像你看你這些等級一到十二平衡機制障礙、智能障礙、植物人、失智症這些到底用的外籍看護工的比例多少你的維護部就有辦法精算出目前有效聘外籍看護工80歲以上的是18萬家庭看護工了機構是將近2萬嘛就20萬嘛但是80歲以上的需求就已經達到了29萬嘛就已經落差在9萬"},{"start":609.554,"end":632.063,"text":"的這個數額了喔你一年可以引進多少的外勞進來外籍公共進來一年我們現在還跟印度簽MOU還線上簽的都還沒有確定那我現在跟各位表達就是說當這個需要的29萬到目前都還沒有到位"},{"start":633.701,"end":662.212,"text":"還差了九萬的八十歲以上那八十歲以下剛剛也有國民黨委員特別提到七十到七十九歲的這個癌症的病友嘛對不對還有你包含這些十四項的這些這些需求到底是多少有沒有精算出來我要表達說當你把把整個這個八十四項表的評估拿掉然後你但是你還是要還需要再有一個病症及失能的診斷證明"},{"start":663.876,"end":685.143,"text":"這是另一個機制嘛。這個機制如果還是持續確保,包含勞動部之前在去年十月三項的多元的這樣的一個放寬。這樣林林總統加起來,你有沒有一個很明確的數字讓我們知道這樣的供給跟需求會有什麼樣的結構性的大變化?"},{"start":686.662,"end":714.919,"text":"會不會會不會今天因為委員在講說那到時候你公佈你去處理啊開放之後免評之後你去處理啊你自己去列優先順序當你列了優先順序重產的先重症的先八十歲以上的先八十歲以上的健康跟亞健康的排序是什麼樣可以很清楚的跟我們說明說明嗎如果你沒有辦法很清楚跟我們說明那就會出大問題喔我是外籍看護"},{"start":715.512,"end":741.357,"text":"我今天來到這個家庭裡面我看到這一個是到上手的是每天要灌死的然後搬也搬不太動的還要搬到洗澡的我們現在的外籍看護工是可以自由選擇僱主的喔我會不會馬上說我不來了幹了三天五天我就跑去跟仲介講說我要換僱主勞動部你要不要很忙"},{"start":742.745,"end":748.47,"text":"要不要去督促、要不要去監督啊為什麼一直換來換過去一直換來換過去換到最後我乾脆就逃跑了輝華移工已經八萬五應該是破九萬了啦這事情會不會更嚴重我只是從幾個面向來提供給大家因為我沒有得到這樣的很明確的數字的時候我會覺得做這個事情基本上它不是不對但是會非常危險"},{"start":772.469,"end":791.473,"text":"就是說前面的開放大家都拍手叫好我也支持啊但是後面產生出來的既然不是一個好效果是一個很嚴重的反效果整個外籍看護在台灣的流動的狀況不是缺了很多不是需要者有真正的進到這個家庭去做照護還是經常會發生這個外籍看護工"},{"start":795.29,"end":818.852,"text":"一下子來到這個僱主一下子又換到了僱主平均做的時間不會超過一個月不會超過兩個月台灣怎麼不會大亂所以我希望是在在在在召委今天是沒有針對法律的草案去修正還有一兩天的時間提供更正確的數據給我們所有委員做參考大家都是好意"},{"start":820.101,"end":840.256,"text":"大家都希望朝向更便民的方式但是當這個人力的不足當外籍看護可以自由選擇雇主的時候你真的要思考的非常多的面向包含這些重症的包含有國民黨委員提到的70到79歲的這些人你的優先順序你到底要怎麼排你不要排到最後全部都是那個健康的都可以請到都做了很久"},{"start":848.237,"end":870.322,"text":"我們還說這個台灣給外籍看護工的職場環境非常優結果重症的結果真正需求者通通被排擠掉那你要用什麼你現在要修哪一條法律說他不可以隨便更換僱主可以這樣做嗎有法律可以定成這樣嗎沒有喔違反人權喔請深思請思考謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b38786436503960c7be6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e56f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:19:38 - 12:33:46","影片長度":"00:14:08","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":848,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:33:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:19:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：不好意思，部長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，你可以喝水沒關係，我等你。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，恭喜接任教育部長，成為賴清德總統第1任的教育部長。我想請問您，目前大致底定我們內部的職位人選了嗎？還會有變動嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前因為部長、次長都是新的，然後高教司、國際司兩位司長也分別在我就任之前派調國外，一個到加拿大，一個到比利時，所以我希望能夠很快速地去瞭解各個業務單位，還有我們所有同仁所擔負的職務、角色及責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以大致底定了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，目前來講，因為確實還有一些職務有代理，我們在未來當然會做一些適才適所的調整。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想這幾個月，我們不敢說多厲害啦！因為我們畢竟才來幾個月，但是有看到幾位，包括國教署及體育署的付出，我給予很大的肯定，也希望教育部的人事趕快底定，我們的政策趕快執行，不要有太多的不確定因素讓我們在後面還要重新來適應。","部長，你知道夜光天使計畫嗎？不好意思，時間正在走。"],["鄭部長英耀：它主要是課後這些……"],["羅委員廷瑋：課後照顧，服務對象為低收入、單親、失親以及隔代教養的經濟弱勢國小學童，因為潘文忠部長在任內有承諾我會來推動臺中試辦，不知道你會不會繼續推動，並且如期在下一個學年度在臺中試辦？"],["鄭部長英耀：潘部長承諾的，我們這邊會繼續來延續推動。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝您。夜光天使談完，跟部長談一下技職教育，工研院、科學園區多半不會請高職畢業的人，而希望要大學畢業、有一般通識教育水準的人，部長，你認為高職有存在的必要嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：高職當然還是有存在的必要。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝你。剛剛那句話是李遠哲講的，所以他主張廢高職，前教育部長黃榮村也證實李遠哲有說過這句話，當時對於李遠哲這樣子在談論，我想教改會數位委員都有提到，認為高職有其代表性、必要性，不應輕言廢止，所以「廢高職」沒有寫入總諮議報告書，也從未形成政策，至今高職仍然還存在著其必要的認為。你個人認為李遠哲的論述對照現在紛紛退場的廢高職，誰對誰錯？"],["鄭部長英耀：許多政策當然有當時的時空因素，在李院長當時回國的時候，事實上那時候的學生每年超過40萬，所以許多家長認為他們有納稅，他希望他的小孩也能夠有機會去讀大學。在那一個思潮裡面，我們也看到了怎麼樣去讓這些青少年有更多通識的基本素養，然後產業也在升級，怎麼樣適度地去做人才培育上的調整，我想它有它的時空因素。但是這些年來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，時空背景不同，但是我們希望聽到的是部長對於高職的重視能夠有所表態。我想瑞士這個國家會強盛靠的是技職教育，那臺灣呢？退場的都是高職，部長，教改30年到現在，到今天高職沒人要念，為什麼沒人要念？到底有什麼問題？什麼狀況？因為念了讀完了，無法符合企業界或社會上的需求，也不保證未來會有工作，臺灣的技職教育到底何去何從？這是我們要探討的。","我來自於高職，我自己也是高職生，所以我要跟部長說，現階段教育部投入技職的教育，在教改30年的今天，有哪些成效？相關的經費為何？有無媒合企業界跟學校建教合作的關係？其狀況為何？有沒有日益增加？部長不用現在回答我，請在會後提供更多的資料給我，但是部長，為何本席關心現在的高職技職教育？因為這就是夜光天使點燈計畫的延伸版。","在實施教改前，對一些經濟弱勢家庭的學童，我們想要求知上進、擺脫貧窮，為了減輕家中的負擔，選擇了半工半讀的高職，畢業後直接進入職場來奮鬥，由黑手成為企業老闆的比比皆是，也有重拾書本，再讀大學、博士的也有很多人，比如我們的前立委蔡正元，他高職是念機械科，然後考教育部公費留美，去哈佛大學甘迺迪學院、美國哥倫比亞大學念書。部長，我要講的是我們的態度，我想要知道你的態度，我們不應該放棄這些人，由於教育政策錯誤，忽略了這一群，我們希望能夠給予適才適所的教育環境，針對這部分，能夠看到您在未來的態度，以及有實際的作為嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，我們確實覺得臺灣現在在民生的第一線上，有許多基礎的科技人才培育，事實上高職在這個部分是扮演一個很重要的角色，我們會持續來支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["鄭部長英耀：甚至在未來有一些專門的學校，剛才委員所提的，怎麼樣跟產業能夠連結，我相信這個部分是我們未來會持續來努力的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，剛剛我有說會後要提供資料，再麻煩你請相關單位跟我瞭解一下。","另外，我想請問你，相關的情緒管理課程我就不用再多說，就最近的一個案例，我們中捷有發生隨機傷人、殺人的事件，那校方有稍微提到，關於這個學生在一、二、三年級表現正常，也有達到醫院實習的表現標準，未料在四年級到醫院實習時出現狀況，而停止了實習，這是他個人的狀況，我們不便多談。但是我想要瞭解的是，近年來隨著社會壓力增加，心理健康開始普遍產生了一些問題，包括自傷、自殺以及相關的案件越來越多，我想情緒管理對於學生的整體發展和健康至關重要。根據世界衛生組織所提供的相關資料，我們可以看到全球每年約有20%的青少年面臨心理健康的問題，其中很大一部分是由於缺乏有效的情緒管理技能所致，所以本席認為，情緒管理的課程不僅有助於學生應對日常生活的壓力，還能顯著的減少暴力行為及心理問題，可以有很卓著的幫助，就情緒管理課程的設置與重視的程度，不曉得在這個部分您可以表態嗎？可以給予我們一個具體實際的政策嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指教，我們推動校園的心理健康本來就有許多的促進計畫，包括社會情緒管理的許多小團體也好，或者班級也好，怎麼樣去融入，我相信那都是我們目前在做的，也非常重要，希望能夠讓青少年、新世代的這些學生能夠更好地去面對壓力或挑戰，所以衍生了心理健康假，我們事實上也都關照了，包括人際互動怎麼樣有一個更好的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，所以請問部長，未來有計畫在中小學設置情緒管理課程嗎？是否考慮將情緒管理課程納入學校的必修課程？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想很多的課程，事實上是可以融入在許多的正規課程裡面來做的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。在教師的部分，教育部是否可以引入更多的培訓項目，幫助老師做情緒管理的教案？這可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，這個當然是非常重要的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想108課綱注重的是全人教育，包括社會情緒的學習已經被放在裡面，其中還包括自我察覺、自我管理，以及社會察覺、人際技巧，以及承擔決定，我想自我察覺正好是契合108課綱對於學生全面的一個追求，進而去培養學生的核心素養，本席希望教育部要重視這個部分，讓情緒管理能夠儘速地全面普及，我們一起加油，這個部分可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我也要檢討潘部長一些教育政策的落實進度，我想跟你做一個探討，因為我們在聊未來的施政願景，也要先從過去的政策來做相關的檢討，我們應該要看看有哪一些事情還沒有做到，以及準備要做的。包括之前有說要補助公立國中小的冷氣電費，但是後來4月漲了電價，有媒體報導說班班有冷氣機，但是班班不敢開冷氣，還有某些國小的老師拒絕開冷氣，電扇僅能開10分鐘，這是媒體報導，我不知道，但是請問部長，有實際達成補助的初衷嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：一般性的電費補助，我們一年有12億。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，這一次凍漲校園電價，我想教育部也有幫忙啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我說的班班有冷氣，還有生生有平板，後面牽扯到的就是電費、電價，到底會不會變成是家長要買單，以及我們當初補助的初衷，我們要持續地來關注。","再來就是營養午餐法制化，這個部分在立法院已經有17個草案待排審，就是遲遲等不到教育部的草案，請問什麼時候？"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。部長非常地關心，前一陣子也聽過專案報告，目前行政院在審議，審議後就會趕快排期程送到立法院，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問有沒有一個時間表？"],["彭署長富源：最快的話，這個會期。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個會期。"],["彭署長富源：初步已經完成兩次審查了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們希望能夠加速。","接下來是教育部承諾的，要在3年內逐年調整幼兒園師生比1比12的目標，提前達成的話會給予獎勵，本席想請問教育部部長，目前的進度為何？是超前還是落後？現在的獎勵是否足以鼓勵幼兒園改善師生比？您對這個部分有掌握嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前是希望公共化幼兒園在114學年度能夠達到師生比1比12，大概是這個目標。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我知道這個是我們逐年在做的目標，但是我講實際的啦！您聽聽看，部長，我認真地希望降低師生比1比12，其實乾脆一點啦！我們是逐年要給予更高額的補助，讓他們想要在今年就做，那我們就先加強補助嘛！所以我講的，只要能在114年將師生比調整為1比12的，就給予調整收費數額，或者是給予更高額的補助，讓家長、園所以及教育部的政策能夠三贏。如果調整數額讓我們感受到會不會讓家長有損失，我們可以給予更高額的補助，讓他們願意提前嘛！如果在114年達不到的，我們就要給予部分的檢討，甚至115年才達到的，我們就是持續地遞減補助、做收費數額檢討，我想這才是一場公平的競爭，公平的法則。現在搞得亂七八糟，對於這個部分，能不能給予更高的補助、更高的協助？您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前確實公幼、準公幼還有一般私立學校，它是有不同的期程，我想會後在我們的委員會裡面，再來細部的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為目前我們有看到，有降低師生比1比12的園所，已經達成的喔！那人家先達成的都是笨蛋，你咎由自取啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意應該給予支持獎勵。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以給予支持嘛！部長，是不是給予更高強度的支持？這是我們現在要說的嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想還有很多事情，包括我們接受到不少幼教老師的陳情，有列舉很多的樣態，不過現在召委站起來了，不給我再繼續講下去，很多的事情我會後再跟你討論，今天召委站起來的速度比較快，但我們還有很多關注的事情要再跟您來做一個探討，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["主席：因為今天是10分鐘加2分鐘，我想要給每個委員20分鐘，都應該是一樣的。好，謝謝羅廷瑋委員，謝謝部長。","接下來先處理臨時提案，目前為止，有委員提出臨時提案共6案，請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑑於體育署升格、成立體育運動發展部為各政黨共識主張。賴清德總統就職演說提及將成立體育暨運動發展部，為落實該政策主張，教育部與體育署應訂出推動時間表與各項進程細節，並於兩個月內回覆立法院教育文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　柯志恩　　范　雲　　洪孟楷","二、","案由：有鑑於巴黎奧運將於7月26日揭幕、選手村於7月18日開放選手入住。為能讓我國代表隊伍及選手無後顧之憂、全心全力參賽，請外交部、交通部、教育部及體育署，從航空機位、交通運輸到行李、服裝、裝備等需求，應做好萬全準備，並隨時檢視與主動追蹤！對於，各界憂心有關因戰事需提防恐攻事件，也應未雨綢繆、防患未然，進行假設性的各種沙盤推演！以上各項進度與資訊，請於兩周內回覆立法院教育文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　柯志恩　　洪孟楷","三、","案由：有鑑於開放陸生來台確實能對於大學退場倒閉潮有所助益。賴清德總統就職演說提及恢復中國學位生來台，教育部鄭部長也強調未來將落實賴總統政策，讓兩岸的年輕人有更健康互動機會，以及更多學習認識、有助於了解彼此，這將是一個好的發展。為避免口惠不實，建請教育部開誠布公、積極推進四步驟：第一步、教育部核定各大學陸生招生名額，第二步、對陸生公告招生簡章，第三步、陸生向學校提出入學申請，第四步、通過篩選並公告錄取名單。教育部應積極核定名額啟動，落實學位生來台政策，並於一個月內回覆立法院教育文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　柯志恩　　洪孟楷","四、","鑒於足球青年聯賽之推動發展部份雖為國內家長與基層球隊所期盼，然回顧本案由體育署指定補助中華足協辦理之歷程，可發現中華足協在賽程、賽務與社會溝通上，均呈現消極被動狀況，仿若本案為體育署強迫執行之業務，同時，體育署亦無認可約束監督之能力，致使家長失望、喪失政府原先補助美意。","為使相關體育經費之投入能真正花在刀口上，並讓真正有心經營賽事之團隊得到體育署之協助，並避免體育署獨厚中華民國足球協會之誤解，爰要求教育部針對爾後有關青年足球聯賽之補助或委辦，均應採公開說明方式，以競爭型經費執行相關預算補助，提供賽務辦理單位自我精進與強化溝通、改善問題之動力，落實政府協助美意。","提案人：陳培瑜　　陳秀寳　　郭昱晴　　吳沛憶　　范　雲","五、","針對我國運動禁藥防制基金會近日傳出因利益衝突迴避問題致使世界反禁藥組織（WADA）來函爭議，查體育署近年年度均編列超過三千萬元委辦費用，然在相關問題之掌握與監督卻付之闕如，導致該組織內控風險在本次事件後更為提高。為保障我國選手於國際賽事參賽權益，爰請教育部於一個月內針對下列事項啟動調查並向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告：","1.現行禁藥防制基金會所有人員（理監事、執行長、組長）與設址之可能利益衝突風險。","2.如我國因基金會違規遭WADA處罰，而導致我國所有協會與選手受到不利處分時，體育署研擬的作為及sop。","3.本次事件禁藥防治基金會與WADA所有往來的信件及事件處理時間軸。","4.體育署就運動禁藥防制基金會之監督機制、委辦經費用途與策進作為。","5.五月三日禁藥防制基金會董事會體育署派員名單與遭請出會議理由。","6.許美智執行長辭職聲明下架原因。","7.評估成立「行政法人國家運動禁藥管制中心」可行性。","提案人：陳培瑜　　郭昱晴　　陳秀寳　　吳沛憶","許美智執行長辭職信","致國人、長官及體育界的先進：","本人自112年9月起擔任「財團法人中華運動禁藥防制基金會」執行長一職，遵循世界運動禁藥管制機構（World Anti-Doping Agency, WADA）規範，追求以超然獨立之立場執行我國運動禁藥管制作業，確保乾淨運動及運動員的公平競爭，以健全國家體育運動發展。這期間多位董事對基金會的付出與本人的支持，表達感激之意。然而，近期基金會高層似未正視WADA來函警告，本人特別呼籲針對外界檢舉基金會組長利益衝突之事件，高層應依WADA規定盡速辦理，以避免未來造成更大的傷害，影響到我國選手參賽權益。","113年4月19日，基金會收到體育署轉民眾陳情檢舉：本基金會檢測與調查組詹貴惠組長兼任國家運動訓練中心、中華奧林匹克委員會、國家科學及技術委員會等多項職務，球員兼裁判並涉及嚴重的利益衝突情事。當下本人責成專人進行調查，確認當事人兼任多項職務屬實，旋即決定將當事人暫調離「檢測與調查組組長」職位，卻屢次遭基金會陳全壽董事長否決，陳董事長主張此事未涉及利益衝突，堅持不得將詹組長調離原職，並指示在113年5月3日董事會議裁決詹組長是否有違規。","113年5月1日，WADA來函基金會表達嚴重關切：倘若詹組長兼任職務之情事屬實，則已涉及利益衝突，使基金會失去其獨立運作與超然立場，構成不合規定（non-conformity）之情況，並要求提供詳細審查報告，以及如何確保未來不存在利益衝突的措施。","113年5月3日，在陳董事長的主導下，董事會對利益衝突案做出定調：詹組長為「職務名稱外觀雖有利害，惟於實際業務執行並無利益衝突之實」，本人難以執行此決議，此決議也完全漠視WADA規範，罔顧利益迴避原則，涉嫌護航利益衝突之當事人。陳董事長之作為顯然是為保全一人，置我國全體運動員與體育發展的未來於險境。倘若我國運動禁藥管制組織在利益衝突的執行上不合規定，又在WADA要求的期限內未能改善，則將招致解約停權，由第三方單位監督或接管，更甚者將導致我國的選手無法以國家名義參與國際大型賽事。","本人從事運動禁藥管制工作三十年，專業能力與努力為大家所肯定，本人榮辱事小，但國家運動禁藥管制組織之公正性，不可因少數個人私益，存在利益衝突而遭受影響。","109年11月，以民間捐助方式成立「財團法人中華運動禁藥防制基金會」之本意，乃希望基金會能以超然公正的立場運作，而非以獨立組織之名，行抗拒體育主管機關監督、輔導與查核之實。現在，應當是重新檢討以健全我國國家運動禁藥管制組織的時候，為了捍衛理念與價值，本人自即日起辭卸執行長職務，盼藉此喚起體育界的重視，讓此組織步人正軌，以保障運動員參賽權利。財團法人中華運動禁藥防制基金會","執行長許美智","中華民國113年5月23日","六、","教育部體育署成立11年，為辦理全國體育業務，而面對國際體育運動發展潮流，發展運動產業有其必要，亦為賴清德總統體育政見中成立「體育暨運動發展部」原因之一，並提出體育預算突破新台幣200億元等政見。全民更多投入體育運動為活絡產業重要關鍵，然而，我國除棒球、籃球單項運動有職業化外，多數項目因產業化不足，仍無法承接更多選手就業。又教育部體育署長期推動企業運動聯賽，至今雖已有足球、排球、壘球、射箭等多項亞奧運項目加入，然是否足夠活絡該單項運動之產業環境，進而帶動運動產業之活絡仍有待觀察。為活絡運動產業之不利因子，爰建請教育部體育署可參酌「強化社會甲組棒球隊組訓實施計畫」，鼓勵各縣市投入其他單項運動之社會甲組球隊，厚實該單項運動競技人才，並具體提出能讓更多企業參加之誘因，讓企業能從民間創業、器材研發、教練增能、外籍教練協助、幼兒運動體驗等加以投入，使企業能做相關異業結合，扶持運動產業，來協助其選手及教練有更多元適性之發展。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　范　雲　　陳培瑜　　張雅琳　　郭昱晴　　吳沛憶"],["主席：我們先來處理第1案，提案委員有沒有要提出說明？林倩綺委員要不要提出說明？"],["林委員倩綺：我們就照案通過，謝謝。"],["主席：教育部這邊？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝主席，第1案我們配合辦理。"],["主席：那我們就照案通過。","第2案，林倩綺委員有沒有要提出說明？"],["林委員倩綺：沒有。"],["主席：那教育部這邊？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們也配合辦理。"],["主席：那我們就照案通過。","第3案的部分，林倩綺委員？"],["林委員倩綺：沒有。"],["主席：沒有要做說明。教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們也配合辦理。"],["主席：配合辦理，那我們就照案通過。","第4案，陳培瑜委員？"],["陳委員培瑜：我想要先確認一下部長這邊的回應。"],["鄭部長英耀：在第3行後半段「彷若本案……」到第4行的「同時」，是不是能夠刪除？然後文字修正為「體育署應強化」，把「亦無認可」這幾個字刪除，然後「約束監督之能力，避免使家長失望」，這是在第1段的部分。","第2段的部分，從第3行後面到第4行，「以競爭型經費執行相關預算補助」是不是也同意刪除？以上，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：不好意思，部長，剛剛您的幕僚來溝通的時候，前面那一段要修正的，我沒有意見，但是現在要把「以競爭型經費執行相關預算補助」刪掉的原因，可不可以請署長說明？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為青年聯賽從上個會期就有不少委員希望我們能夠去協助足球協會，針對辦理青年聯賽這件事情去做補助，我們也的確滿強化這部分，雖然他們去年舉辦的情況有很多地方沒有達到家長的期待，但是畢竟青年聯賽還是屬於足球協會自己的賽事，而且它也是一個特定體育團體，是不是委員容許我們來組成一個任務小組，去加強對它的輔導？事實上，我們將在這幾天召開一個會議，由林佳和教授幫我們一起來檢視它整個賽制以及執行方式，我們是不是可以在今年還是用輔導的角度去強力介入，讓它的賽制符合家長的期待？因為畢竟這個賽事還是屬於足協自己的，當然我們也可以說不要補助，但是我覺得這樣也不好啦！我們是不是能更正面一點來處理這件事情？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為剛剛我有看到張廖次長點頭，署長，你自己剛剛也有公開說明，確實足協在去年，本來應該要去年辦嘛！相關的很多爭議，我覺得不只是家長滿不滿意，我想署長一定非常清楚，我相信思瑤委員應該也很清楚，因為在思瑤委員的選區也有相關的社區隊伍，大家都知道小孩不要只送進體育班，其實在社區聯賽裡面也比較呼應後續賴總統希望體育署升級，對於體育發展運動部的想像，關於社區聯賽或者是俱樂部或者是產業的部分，我覺得必須要把這個觀念再放進來，所以我們才會希望不要再只有獨厚足協。","當然我也認同它確實是一個民間的賽事，過往不在體育署的政策視野當中，所以導致我們一直在這個點上對話，確實糾結了很久，可是我也要拜託署長再次公開承諾，如果你們還是希望單獨補助給足協去促成……"],["鄭署長世忠：我們也有補助其他的團體，就是聯賽的部分都有。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我指的是青年聯賽這個部分。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：對不起，我重說，如果在青年聯賽這個部分，你們還是希望由足協來主辦，然後你們是補助經費的角色，但是你願意強化監督的功能，並且輔助他們相關的行政業務，還有跟家長溝通，甚至是賽程的安排，我想署長您非常清楚。"],["鄭署長世忠：對，這我認同。"],["陳委員培瑜：對於賽程的安排，它到底是以盃賽的心情在排聯賽，還是它真的是以聯賽的心情在排聯賽……"],["鄭署長世忠：聯賽。"],["陳委員培瑜：那個差別很大，我想以署長的專業，你一定可以理解，我今天也要再次在公開錄影強調這件事情，所以今天的版本我願意接受調整，我看到體育署的善意，可是我要再次強調，也真的要拜託次長，這件事情已經有很大的民怨了，在所有社區聯賽的粉專或者是家長社團當中，大家看不見體育署有更好的想像跟可能性，所以我們才會提出這個臨時提案，好嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我有增加一條，基本上除了足協的青年聯賽，其他的單位如果願意舉辦類似同年齡層的，我們都會儘可能去支持，當然還要考慮到他們會不會太多比賽之類的……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然。"],["鄭署長世忠：但是這部分我們不排除。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就像剛剛次長提醒的，其實很多民間的單位自己已經出錢出力做了，去年有非常多精彩的比賽，自己有出錢出力了，所以如果你們真的願意支持社區聯賽，支持社區運動俱樂部的概念，我們當然都支持，我相信立法院在預算上絕對支持。好，是不是再確定一次文字的修正？就是把那一段拿掉，可是你們會加強相關的輔導跟監督。"],["鄭署長世忠：有，後面的確已經有在上面了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就沒有問題，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，培瑜委員，這樣可以喔？","好，那就按照修正後的文字通過，謝謝。","第5案。"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是也請我們的鄭署長先說明一下？"],["主席：第5案有需要改變嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：針對培瑜委員提的第七條，評估成立行政法人運動禁藥管制中心的可行性，我很清楚目前委員只是要求我們評估，但我還是要向委員報告，基本上，我們現在還是很擔心有國家介入的情況。這次藥檢組織被外界產生疑慮就是因為它的董事兼了很多政府相關的職務或訓練相關的職務，如果今天我們採用行政法人這樣的類公務體系方式來成立，豈不是更令人擔心，所以能否請委員考慮將這個部分刪除？"],["陳委員培瑜：我先說其他的在之前質詢時也討論過、我們辦公室助理也認真地與體育署討論過，目前我們擔心的所有可能會影響選手出賽權益的風險，署長這邊是不是也都有積極地進行相關的監督？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們提出的像是下架聲明的原因、遭請出會議的理由或是更強烈的監督機制，確保選手權益的這件事情，我想署長你自己也非常清楚，臺灣當年之所以要自己成立這個相關的機構、法人就是因為中國在WADA的影響力很大，我們要有自己的機制來處理這件事情。我覺得我們當時會提出來就是希望避免選手出賽的權益受到影響，我們不能以選手出賽的權益作為賭注，所以我們才會如此強烈的爭取要求這件事情。如果你們連評估都覺得有困難，那麼你覺得還有什麼更好的方法讓這件事情還有更好的可能？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，基本上，1到6我們都同意，也會提出書面報告，只是因為第7點還是會有利益衝突的可能性，所以這個部分請……"],["吳委員思瑤：評估啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：可以，沒有問題，如果只是……"],["吳委員思瑤：評估啊！不可行就不可行啊！怎麼可以把委員……"],["鄭署長世忠：剛剛我說我沒有堅持，只是先向委員報告會有這樣的疑慮。"],["吳委員思瑤：委員沒有正面要求你一定要做，只是評估啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["主席：所以是按照委員的意見，7條都保留照案通過嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：對，就配合辦理。"],["主席：可以嗎？配合辦理，你們剛剛講了3分50秒。好，我們就照案通過。","第6案，培瑜委員？對不起！這是提案人，誰要說明一下？都可以嗎？Hello！第6案，誰要說明一下？"],["吳委員思瑤：第6案就是賴清德總統的八大體育政見，只是我們將它文字化作為提案，我覺得應當是沒有問題啊！是不是？OK吧？"],["主席：好，所以我們就照案通過。","感謝！我們的臨時提案就處理到這邊為止，接下來就繼續進行質詢。","請吳思瑤委員，時間為4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.22034375,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.53221875,"end":6.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.54596875,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.17846875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.15534375,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.66346875,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.697218750000005,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.781593750000006,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.98784375,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.43409375,"end":66.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.41221875000001,"end":94.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.18409375,"end":101.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.53409375000001,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.58471875000001,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.87159375,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.74596875,"end":128.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.19659375,"end":128.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.31471875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.02346875,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.79284375,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.03284375,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.78534375,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.13909375,"end":237.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.06034375000002,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.38096875000002,"end":217.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.02784375000002,"end":329.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.01846875,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.49846875000003,"end":330.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.59534375000004,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.40534375000004,"end":332.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.77221875000004,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.41284375000004,"end":338.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.50971875000005,"end":358.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.43471875,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.02534375000005,"end":448.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.58534375000005,"end":481.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.47034375000004,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.97659375,"end":519.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.55346875000004,"end":490.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.09346875,"end":528.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.75846875,"end":528.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.77534375,"end":537.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.02721875,"end":573.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.8203437500001,"end":538.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.83221875,"end":543.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.19909375,"end":544.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.46034375,"end":574.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.9453437500001,"end":615.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.9853437500001,"end":616.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.9978437500001,"end":624.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.39346875,"end":623.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.4734687499999,"end":624.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.92909375,"end":652.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.7553437500001,"end":657.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.3203437500001,"end":671.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.4384687500001,"end":659.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.89221875,"end":674.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.11971875,"end":674.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.96346875,"end":698.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.9428437500001,"end":700.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.4909687500001,"end":715.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.0247187500001,"end":733.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.48596875,"end":791.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.60346875,"end":791.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.6497187500001,"end":809.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.03534375,"end":816.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.6584687500001,"end":847.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":817.72596875,"end":818.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.7465937500001,"end":822.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.76721875,"end":824.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.6784687500001,"end":825.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.5065937500001,"end":847.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.1897187500001,"end":847.24034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.237,"end":24.251,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長不好意思部長部長可以喝水沒關係我等你謝謝委員好部長恭喜接任教育部長成為賴慶德總統第一任的教育部長我想跟你請問一下目前部長大肆抵定我們內部的一些職位人選了嗎還會有變動嗎"},{"start":28.203,"end":29.824,"text":"所以大致抵定了嗎?"},{"start":56.716,"end":70.231,"text":"目前來講當然在未來我們因為確實有一些職務還有一些有代理嘛那我們在未來當然會做一些事才事所的一些這個條件"},{"start":71.613,"end":93.361,"text":"我想這幾個月我們不敢說多厲害啦因為我們畢竟才幾個月但是有看到幾位包括國教署還有體育署的復出我給予很大的一個肯定那也希望我們的人事趕快抵定我們的政策趕快執行而不要讓有太多的不確定因素讓我們在後面還要重新再來適應我想部長你知道夜光天使計畫嗎"},{"start":99.431,"end":121.844,"text":"不好意思時間正在走他這個主要是客戶客戶照顧服務對象為低收入單親私親以及隔代教養的經濟弱勢國小學童我想潘文忠部長在任內有承諾我會來推動台中事辦那我想不只你會繼續推動並且如期在下一個學年度在台中事辦嗎"},{"start":122.925,"end":144.966,"text":"我想跟委員報告這是潘部長承諾的我們這邊會繼續來 延續 延續來談好謝謝您那我想葉光天是談完跟部長談一下技職教育公園院科學園區多半不會請高職畢業的人而希望要大學畢業有一般通識教育水準的人部長你認為高職有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":146.92,"end":161.185,"text":"我想跟委員報告高職當然還是有存在的必要好 謝謝你剛剛那句話是李遠哲講的所以他主張廢高職前教育部部長黃榮春也證實李遠哲有說過這句話我想當時"},{"start":162.625,"end":162.985,"text":"李遠哲﹑蘇慧委員﹑"},{"start":179.654,"end":187.427,"text":"指引報告書也從未形成政策至今高職仍然還存在著其必要的認為那你個人認為李遠哲的論述對照與現在紛紛退場的費高職是誰對誰錯"},{"start":196.723,"end":215.98,"text":"習多這個政策當然他有當時的時空因素在李院長當時回國的時候事實上我們那時候的學生每年超過40萬所以習多家長他們認為他們有納稅他希望他的小孩也能夠有機會去讀大學"},{"start":217.441,"end":242.628,"text":"那在那個思潮裡邊我們也看到了怎麼樣去讓這些青少年有更多的這些通識的一些基本素養然後產業也在升級怎麼樣去做一個適度的人才培育上的一些調整我想他有他的時空因素我想我知道時空背景不同但是我們希望聽到的是部長對於高職的重視能夠有所表態"},{"start":243.428,"end":269.473,"text":"我想瑞士這個國家會強盛靠的是技職教育那台灣呢退場的都是高職部長在教改的30年到現在我們到今天高職沒人要念為什麼沒人要念到底有什麼問題什麼狀況因為念了讀完了無法符合企業界或社會上的一個需求也不保證未來會有工作台灣的技職教育到底何去何從這是我們要探討的我是來自於高職"},{"start":270.293,"end":285.527,"text":"我自己也是高職生啊所以我要跟部長說的現階段教育部投入技職的教育在教改30年的今天有哪些成效相關的經費為何有無媒合企業界跟學校建教合作的關係其狀況為何有沒有日益增加部長"},{"start":286.027,"end":307.159,"text":"不用現在回答我請在會後我能夠提供更多的資料給我但是部長為何本席關心我們現在的高職技職教育因為這就是夜光天使點燈計畫的一個延伸版在實施教改前對一些經濟弱勢家庭的一個學童我們想要求知上進擺脫貧窮為了減輕家中的一個負擔選擇了半工半讀的高職畢業後直接進入"},{"start":313.643,"end":331.357,"text":"﹗"},{"start":331.457,"end":357.007,"text":"念高職考教育部公費留美去哈佛大學甘迺迪學院美國哥倫比亞大學念書所以部長我要講的是我們的態度我想要知道你的態度我們不應該放棄這些人我們的教育政策錯誤忽略了這一群我們希望能夠給予世才世所的教育環境這部分能夠看到您在未來的態度以及有實際的作為嗎"},{"start":359.688,"end":387.222,"text":"是的跟委員報告我們確實覺得台灣現在在民生很多的這個第一線上有許多的這些基礎的這個科技人才的培育我們事實上高職在這個部分是扮演很重要的一個角色我們會持續來支持甚至在未來有一些專門的學校而不是剛才委員所提的怎麼樣跟產業能夠連結我相信這個部分是我們未來會持續來努力的"},{"start":387.922,"end":413.535,"text":"剛剛我說提供會後的資料再麻煩你要請這個相關單位跟我瞭解一下另外我想跟你請問這個情緒管理課程相關的這些我就不用再多說了就最近的一個案例我們終結有這個隨機傷人殺人的一個事件那校方有稍微提到關於這個學生在123年級表現正常也有達到醫院實習的表現標準"},{"start":415.356,"end":440.515,"text":"未料在四年級呢醫院實習的狀況出現狀況我想而停止了實習這個是他個人的一個狀況我們不便多談但是我想要了解的是我們近年來隨著社會壓力增加心理健康問題的一個普遍開始產生了一些問題包括自傷自殺以及相關的案件越來越多我想對於情緒管理對於學生的一個整體發展"},{"start":441.255,"end":447.717,"text":"健康至關重要根據世界衛生組織所提供的相關資料我們可以看到"},{"start":448.72,"end":475.368,"text":"全球每年約有20%的青少年面臨心理健康的問題其中很大一部分就是由於缺乏有效的情緒管理技能所致所以本席認為這個情緒管理的課程不僅對於我們學校的學生應對日常生活的壓力還能顯著的減少暴力行為心理問題可以有很著作的一個幫助我想情緒管理課程設置以重視的一個程度"},{"start":475.928,"end":503.271,"text":"不曉得在這個部分您可以表態嗎可以給予我們具體的一個相關實際的政策嗎我想謝謝委員的一個指教本來這個推動校園的心理健康我們就有許多的一些促進計畫包括社會情緒的這些的管理的許多的小團體也好或者班級的一些經營怎麼樣去融入我相信那都是我們目前在做一個非常重要的也希望能夠讓"},{"start":504.952,"end":509.316,"text":"所以我說部長請問未來有計劃在這個中小學情緒管理課程來做設置嗎是否考慮將情緒管理課程納入學校的必修課程的一個考慮"},{"start":528.812,"end":544.842,"text":"我想這一個很多的課程他事實上是可以融入在許多的正規的課程裡面來做的好謝謝那我想教師的部分教育部是否可以引入更多的培訓項目幫助老師做情緒管理的教案我想108課綱注重了一個全能教育包括社會情緒的學習已經被放在裡面"},{"start":552.367,"end":573.581,"text":"其中裡面還包括自我察覺自我管理以及社會察覺人際技巧以及承擔決定我想自我察覺正好就是契合了108課綱對於學生全面的一個追求進而去培養我們學生的核心素養我想本席希望教育部要重視這個部分讓情緒管理能夠儘速的全面普及我們一起加油這個部分可以嗎?"},{"start":574.702,"end":574.862,"text":"議員提醒"},{"start":605.243,"end":632.046,"text":"還有一些某些國小的老師拒絕開冷氣電扇僅能開10分鐘這是媒體報導我不知道但是請問部長有實際達成補助的初衷嗎我們現在在跟委員報告一般性的這一個電費的補助我們一年有12億好這一次動長這個校園電價我想教育部也有幫忙但是我要說的慢慢有冷氣以及深深有平板"},{"start":632.546,"end":632.666,"text":"您好。"},{"start":659.438,"end":659.559,"text":"最快的話這個會期"},{"start":674.938,"end":699.89,"text":"初步已經完成兩次審查了我們希望能夠加速接下來是教育部承諾的要在三年內逐年調整幼兒園師生比1到121比12的一個目標並且提前達成的話會給予獎勵本席想請問一下教育部部長目前的進度為何是超前還是落後現在獎勵是否足以鼓勵幼兒園改善師生比您這部分有掌握嗎"},{"start":701.527,"end":720.776,"text":"我們目前大概這個希望能夠在114年公共化幼兒園在114全年度能夠達到可以達成師生比試到1比12當然我知道這個是我們的逐年在做的一個目標但是我講實際的啦您聽聽看部長"},{"start":722.677,"end":748.88,"text":"我認真跟你希望降低師生比1比12其實乾脆一點我們是逐年要給予更高額的一個補助讓他們想要在今年就做那這就是我們先加強補助所以我講的只要能在114年達到師生比可調整到位1比12的就給予調整收費數額或者是給予更高額的一個補助讓我們的家長"},{"start":749.781,"end":770.305,"text":"原所以及教育部的政策能夠三贏我想如果調整數額會讓我們感受到會不會讓家長有損失我們可以給予更高額的補助讓他們願意提前嘛如果在114年達不到的我想這部分我們就要給予部分的檢討甚至115年達到才達到的我們甚至就是遞減"},{"start":775.106,"end":791.406,"text":"持續的遞減持續的補助遞減小收費數額檢討我想這才是一場公平的競爭啊公平的法則現在搞得亂七八糟我想這個部分能不能給予更高的一個補助更高的一個協助這部分您覺得呢"},{"start":792.691,"end":816.676,"text":"我想我們目前確實是公幼跟准公幼還有一般私立學校他有一些不同的一些期程那我想我們在我們這個會後我們的這個委員會裡邊再來細部的因為目前我們還是有看到有降低師生比1比12的員所已經達成的喔那人家先達成的都笨蛋"},{"start":817.745,"end":818.645,"text":"我同意委員應該給予支持：羅廷瑋"},{"start":847.671,"end":847.736,"text":"主席。"}]}},{"id":"153040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c8e5f61b4020f778e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9eddeb7cde19618cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:06:27 - 12:19:09","影片長度":"00:12:42","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":762,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:19:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:06:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":626,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時6分）有請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。我是你的校友，中山大學我是第5屆畢業的，所以我們算自己人啦！當然對你來接任部長，我們中山校友會都歡欣鼓舞，也期待你能大刀闊斧，有所作為。","我到立法院來，快要4個月的時間我都在談壯世代，為什麼我選擇在教文委員會？因為壯世代的核心就是一個文化，就是一個教育的問題，不是衛環啦！不是去長照啦！所以在這裡重中之重，我講了4個月，我想在座的這些司長應該耳朵都聽到生繭了，對不對？但是我看了今天教育部所做的業務報告書，部長上任的報告書裡面只有一句話，一句帶過，第27頁「樂齡長者學習」，還是停留在樂齡上，我不曉得是下情不能上達，還是潘部長答應我說很多的事情要移交卻沒有移交？還是說所做的事情部長沒有認同？所以這部分看起來我們需要溝通一下，後續的溝通。","現在看起來，教育部對於未來整個社會的樣貌，教育部應該扮演的角色是什麼，似乎沒有很深刻地去思考，我看了這一份報告，還是跟過去一樣，做了很多瑣碎的事項。我也跟部長報告，教育部的事情做不完，如果核心的問題沒有掌握的話，做這些事情只是治絲益棼，沒有辦法好好地處理。我想這一次包括我們的次長也都更新了，所以很多政策沒有延續，不過也不需要延續啦！因為展開新局，對於過去的教育政策你也不用負責任，你應該要展開新局，看到新的東西，我們兩位政次張廖萬堅次長及葉丙成次長都非常地優秀，也希望未來能夠來協助。","首先，我不曉得教育部有沒有看到這個問題，未來往前30年臺灣最重要的，我一直在講，最重要的是民主化，往後30年臺灣最重要的問題是人口，人口學的問題，高齡化跟少子化。我這4個月來一直在談簡報上這個表，1970年代，臺灣年齡中位數是19.3歲，2040年是52.4歲，這是國發會做的資料，這不是我做的。1970年65歲占人口2.9%，2040年65歲占人口30%，10倍。14歲以下，1970年占39.7%，2040年是10.2%，翻天覆地，教育政策有沒有把這個部分納入考量？溝通了4個月，我發現所有的部會都停留在1970年代，用這樣子的一個想像圖在規劃所有的政策，如果是這樣子的話，所有的都白做了。","來，我們看一下，現在我談的不是老人的問題，這是年輕人的問題，我問了很多大學校長，你知道你的學生明年一腳踏出校園，一腳就踏進超高齡社會，5個人就有1個是65歲；當這個孩子30歲的時候，2034年臺灣一半的人口超過50歲；當這個孩子40歲的時候，一半的人口超過60歲，請問這個孩子未來是活在什麼社會？部長，請問這個孩子未來是活在什麼社會？我們現在教育的大學生，未來是活在什麼社會裡面？"],["鄭部長英耀：誠如委員所提的，當然是一個高齡的社會。"],["吳委員春城：一個高齡社會，我們有告訴我們的孩子是這樣子嗎？我問了很多大學校長，甚至會說我們都告訴孩子未來是在一個青春無敵的社會，如果你的教育方向是這樣子，我們培養孩子，未來就是要看他到什麼戰場嘛！30歲、40歲是他的創業，不管他要做什麼，最重要的，如果方向都搞錯了，你培育的東西，你現在所做的這一本教育白皮書整個政策都方向錯誤，你能解決這個社會的問題嗎？你能解決這些年輕人的問題嗎？好好地思考這個問題，好不好？所以整個社會未來可以預見的，如果我們不改弦易轍的話，未來高齡化造成臥床族，現在平均臥床已經超過8年，再加上未來少子化，年輕人成為躺平族，全臺灣躺成一片，這個責任在教育部，重中之重。","但是我們教育部如何地漠視高齡教育？這個表你們自己看，現在終身教育司的預算一年3.4億，占教育部預算0.2%，那這些人有多少？壯世代有800萬人，用3.4億，平均每個人一年教育預算40元。大家都在問，這800萬人都退休了，退休做什麼？退休以後就沒事做了，我們現在所想像的，你們對一個人的退休有想像嗎？像校長現在就當部長，但是你有想像現在有800萬人「沐沐泅」，不知道往哪裡去，政府對這一部分沒有責任嗎？我們現在給他們的教育場域就是這個樣子，大家說反正高齡者不想學習，隨便就好啦！好好地想一下這件事情。所有的課程當中，現在就是樂齡大學嘛！就是養生養病養老，基本上是以這個為主，所以難怪大家沒有什麼興趣。","事實上，我在推壯世代的運動，就是要把銀髮族翻轉為壯世代，現在整個政府都停留在銀髮族思維，所有的部會我已經溝通過4個月，我可以深深地、肯定地說，連行政院也是這樣子，要翻轉成為壯世代，不然這些人未來會占人口的一半，壓垮下一代，下一代沒有未來，你辦的教育沒有未來，這是整個生態的問題，非常簡單的數學問題。我也跟部長講，壯世代在我推動4個月當中，已經在立法院成立了一個最大的次團，跨黨派的，我們有63個立委加入這個次團，有200位學者加入這個次團，一致地重視到這個問題要來推動，教育部在這裡面扮演了非常樞紐核心的角色。","我在跟潘部長對話的時候，有提出一個方法，因為教育部現在最傷腦筋的就是少子化，有很多大學要關門，估計有60所，那教育部只有退場機制，我跟潘部長說我教你一個大學不用關門的方法，怎麼不用關門？你知道大學為什麼只有18歲來念呢？為什麼不是60歲來念呢？你知道現在60歲有600萬人耶！這個叫壯世代，壯世代最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學，因為那時候錄取率很低，你如果規劃一個第三人生大學出來，你知道有多少人要來報名嗎？至少300萬人要來報名。我有講過，我到處去講的時候，每一個人聽了都很興奮，還問我可不可以住校，因為他不想回家，等禮拜六、禮拜天再回家，而且這些人掌握臺灣三分之二的財富，也不用教育部補助，你就好好地規劃制度出來，所有大學不用關門了。","全世界事實上也在走這樣子的路線，教育部不要被那些法規綁得死死的，就是一定要18歲，然後很多的體制，現在包括空中大學聽了以後也出來響應，它希望自己成為國民的第三人生大學，包括現在要退場的這些大學，是不是可以好好地去輔導？潘文忠部長也告訴我，有交代次長來成立第三人生大學推動小組，我不曉得現在還有沒有存在？部長，有沒有？你知道這件事情嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想第三人生大學這個部分我們會積極推動，因為誠如委員講的，終身學習很重要，而且我們不能認為60歲以後的學習只是……"],["吳委員春城：好，但是現在這件事情還存在嗎？政策有沒有延續？因為我跟他談了4個月，也有很多小組的成立，不曉得現在……"],["鄭部長英耀：有，我們是延續的。"],["吳委員春城：有嗎？是有延續喔？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員春城：好，我一定會繼續追蹤，跟你們討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有問題。"],["吳委員春城：包括教育部有跟我們做過第三人生大學學程的研討會喔！公聽會喔！我們辦過很多的活動喔！所以不要改朝換代以後，所有事情就當作是過眼雲煙，就不認帳，因為這樣子的話，我們前面4個月真的就是對著稻草人空轉了。在座很多的司長都知道這件事情，我們非常認真地推動了4個月，我也緊盯著，所以拜託部長，你的部屬都完全知道這件事情，要跟部長報告，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。事實上剛才聽委員的一席話，我覺得是振奮人心，基本上，大學一般來講是18歲，但是現在有一些學校，我是鼓勵在未來應該要更鬆綁。簡單來講，在30歲以上有超過三十幾萬的人口，如果我們能夠重新定位大學，甚至我們會慢慢請大學的經營者開始去思考是不是一定要招18歲，因為少子化，但是如果他放寬到30歲以後的這些人口，就像委員剛才講的，60歲有600萬人，我們怎麼樣讓他有一些更積極的學習。"],["吳委員春城：對，現在包括私立大學的轉型可以朝這個方向，或者我們有實驗教育，這個是比較寬鬆的，也可以儘快地納入這個制度，所以後續再跟教育部做更多的溝通。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指正。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝部長。不過剛剛吳委員所提到的，退休之後的安心睡、快樂吃，你相信我，不用等到退休，在場所有的人都很希望現在就做這件事。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.42659375,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.644718750000003,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.820968750000002,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.984718750000003,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.54971875,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.28346875,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.73409375,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.438468750000006,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.96534375,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.180343750000006,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.28534375,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.81159375,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.000343750000006,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.71034375,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.29971875000001,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.08846875,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.80534375,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.30284375000001,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.15034375,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.96534375,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.58096875000001,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.62721875000001,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.94346875000001,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.54034375,"end":147.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.17659375000002,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.88909375,"end":152.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.12096875,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.64721875,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.78159375,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.23159375,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.47534375,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.19659375,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.30034375000002,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.04659375000003,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.26534375000003,"end":233.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.86784375000002,"end":234.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.90971875000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.82409375,"end":253.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.84784375,"end":257.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.28596875,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.35659375,"end":274.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.94159375000004,"end":275.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.05534375,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.20034375,"end":299.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.81096875000003,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.21971875,"end":315.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.60596875000005,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.22534375000004,"end":327.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.19909375000003,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.72846875000005,"end":353.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.38909375000003,"end":357.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.21971875,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.39659375,"end":361.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.58596875,"end":377.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.27971875000003,"end":382.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.17784375,"end":388.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.81409375000004,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.06659375000004,"end":396.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.84659375,"end":410.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.08909375,"end":411.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.30409375000005,"end":420.25221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.74159375000005,"end":428.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.75284375,"end":450.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.96471875000003,"end":455.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.14971875000003,"end":457.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.74846875000003,"end":458.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.47409375,"end":474.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.43784375,"end":474.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.22659375,"end":483.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.97221875,"end":500.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.37034375,"end":519.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9497187500001,"end":527.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.8640937499999,"end":543.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.77284375,"end":565.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.9297187500001,"end":592.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.5122187500001,"end":601.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.2534687500001,"end":605.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.0290937500001,"end":607.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.48846875,"end":622.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.97159375,"end":624.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.0390937500001,"end":626.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.18221875,"end":625.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.8359687500001,"end":632.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.19346875,"end":636.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.0834687500001,"end":638.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.5347187500001,"end":682.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.5403437500001,"end":682.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.3503437500001,"end":683.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.9072187500001,"end":683.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.0590937500001,"end":689.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.9822187500001,"end":714.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.28971875,"end":693.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.9934687500001,"end":699.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.95034375,"end":705.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.8390937500001,"end":717.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.56846875,"end":722.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.10784375,"end":724.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.94721875,"end":737.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.22846875,"end":734.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.15221875,"end":756.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.17909375,"end":755.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.7903437500001,"end":756.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.84096875,"end":759.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.96284375,"end":761.9709687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.804,"end":6.924,"text":"有請鄭部長"},{"start":14.693,"end":41.211,"text":"委員好部長好我是你的校友中山大學我是第5屆畢業的所以我們算自己人那所以呢當然對你來接任部長我們中山校友會都歡心鼓舞那也期待你有大刀闊斧有所作為"},{"start":46.714,"end":68.707,"text":"我到立法院來我談了這樣應該快了4個月的時間都在談壯世代為什麼我選擇在教文委員會因為壯世代的核心就是一個文化就是一個教育的問題當然擴擠到不是未還不是去長照"},{"start":70.268,"end":86.692,"text":"所以在這裡重中之重我講了四個月我想在座的這些司長應該耳朵都聽到聲簡了對不對但是我看了今天教育部所做的業務報告書是部長上任的報告書裡面"},{"start":89.353,"end":114.59,"text":"只有一句話一句帶過第27月樂齡長者學習還是停留在樂齡上我不曉得是下情不能上達沒有跟還是潘部長答應我說要把這個東西答應我很多的事情要移交沒有移交還是說所做的事情部長沒有認同"},{"start":116.491,"end":127.017,"text":"所以這一部分看起來我們需要溝通一下,後續的溝通因為現在看起來這個教育部"},{"start":127.984,"end":151.273,"text":"對於未來整個社會的樣貌教育部應該扮演的角色是什麼似乎沒有很深刻的去思考我看了這份的報告還是一樣跟過去一樣的做了很多瑣碎的事項但我也跟部長報告就是教育部的事情做不完核心的問題沒有掌握的話這些事情"},{"start":153.228,"end":172.646,"text":"只是自私一分了就是沒有辦法那個好好的不過我想那個有這一次因為包括我們的次長也都更新了所以很多政策沒有延續了不過也不需要延續啦因為展開新局啦對於過去的教育的政策"},{"start":173.527,"end":180.73,"text":"首先這個是我不曉得我們教育部有沒有看到這個問題未來往前30年台灣最重要的我一直在講最重要的是民主化"},{"start":201.334,"end":213.601,"text":"往後30年台灣最重要的問題是人口學的問題高齡化跟少子化這個表我這四個月也在談這個表1970年代台灣年齡中位數19.3歲2040年是52.4歲"},{"start":221.337,"end":226.743,"text":"這國發會做的資料 這不是我做的1970年65歲占人口2.9%2040年65歲占人口30倍"},{"start":236.495,"end":252.049,"text":"14歲以下1970年占399.72040年是10.2翻天覆地教育政策有沒有把這個我整個看到溝通了四個月我發現所有的部會都停留在1970年代"},{"start":254.065,"end":259.647,"text":"我問了很多的大學校長你知道你的學生明年一腳踏出校園一腳就踏進超高齡社會"},{"start":276.124,"end":297.925,"text":"五個人就一個65歲當這個孩子30歲的時候2034年台灣一半人口超過50歲當這個孩子40歲的時候一半的人口超過60歲請問這個孩子未來是活在什麼社會部長請問這個孩子未來是活在我們現在教育的大學生未來是活在什麼社會裡面"},{"start":301.088,"end":327.191,"text":"陳住委員所提的當然是一個高齡的社會我們有在告訴我們的孩子這樣子嗎我問了很多大學校長甚至會說我們都告訴孩子未來是在一個青春無敵的社會如果你的教育方向是這樣子我們培養孩子未來就是要看他到什麼戰場30歲40歲是他的創業不管他要做什麼最重要的如果方向"},{"start":328.217,"end":341.817,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":342.819,"end":361.076,"text":"所以整個的社會未來可以預見的如果我們不改選預測的話未來高齡化造成臥床族我們現在平均臥床已經超過8年未來少子化年輕人成為躺平族整個全台灣躺成一片這個責任在教育部重中之重"},{"start":363.612,"end":387.606,"text":"但是我們教育部如何的漠視高齡教育?這個表你們自己看的就是我們現在就終身教育師預算一年3.4億占教育部預算的0.2%這些人有多少?壯世代有800萬人用3.4億平均每一個人一年教育預算40塊40元"},{"start":393.083,"end":419.511,"text":"大家都在問這800萬人大家都退休了退休做什麼退休以後就沒事做了我們現在想像了你們對一個人的退休有想像嗎像這個校長現在就當部長當然各位但是你有想像現在800萬人沒收不知道往哪裡去政府對這一部分沒有責任嗎我們現在給他們的教育場域就是這個樣子"},{"start":421.353,"end":428.711,"text":"所以大家說反正高齡者不想學習啦親菜就好啦那有的話就教學習好好想一下這件事情喔"},{"start":429.827,"end":456.45,"text":"那所有的課程當中啊現在就是六零大學嘛就是養生養病養老啦基本上是以這個為主啦所以大家難怪這個沒什麼興趣事實上我在推壯世代的運動就是要把引法族翻轉為壯世代我們現在整個政府都停留在引法族思維整個所有的部會我已經溝通過四個月我深深的可以肯定的這樣子說"},{"start":459.052,"end":471.858,"text":"連行政院也是這樣子要翻轉成為壯世代不然這些人未來會佔人口的一半壓垮下一代下一代沒有未來你辦的教育沒有未來這是一個整個生態的問題非常簡單的數學問題"},{"start":476.317,"end":499.958,"text":"所以我也跟部長講壯世代在我推動四個月當中已經在立法院成立了一個最大的次團 跨黨派的我們有63個立委加入這個次團 200位學者加入這個次團 一致的重視到這個問題要來推動那教育部在這裡面扮演了非常樞紐核心的地方"},{"start":501.417,"end":519.047,"text":"那我在跟潘部長的時候提出一個 因為教育部現在最傷腦筋的就是少子化 很多大學要關門 估計要六十所 那大學只有 教育部只有退場機制 我告訴教育部一個 我跟潘部長講一個 說我教你一個大學不用關門的方法"},{"start":520.297,"end":542.759,"text":"為什麼大學只有18歲來唸呢?為什麼不是60歲來唸呢?你知道我們現在60歲有600萬人耶,這叫壯世代。壯世代最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學,因為那時候入學率很低。你知道這些人,你如果規劃出一個第三人生大學出來,有多少人要來報名嗎?"},{"start":544.827,"end":564.105,"text":"至少300萬人要來報名我講過到處去講的時候每一個人聽了都很興奮還問我說可不可以住校因為他不想回家禮拜六禮拜天再回家所以呢而且這些人掌握台灣三分之二的財富也不用教育部補助你就好好地貴到四度出來說我大學不用關門了"},{"start":566.957,"end":590.75,"text":"那全世界事實上也在走這樣子的路線教育部不要被那些法規綁得死死的就是一定要18歲然後很多的體制所以呢現在其實包括空中大學聽了以後也出來響應他希望自己成為國民的第三人生大學其實所有在包括很多現在要退場的這些大學是不是可以好好的去輔導"},{"start":592.611,"end":607.531,"text":"可以去好好的輔導那潘文忠部長非常現在也告訴我有交代是由次長來成立一個第三人生大學的推動小組我不曉得現在還有沒有存在部長有沒有你知道這事情嗎"},{"start":609.534,"end":632.571,"text":"我想第三這個人生大學這個部分我們會積極推動因為陳如委員講的終身學習是一個很重要而且我們不能認為60歲以後他只能但是這個教育部現在這件事情還存在嗎不是政策有沒有延續啊因為我跟他談了4個月然後也有很多小組的成立"},{"start":635.505,"end":660.395,"text":"我講我們是延續的所以我一定會繼續追蹤跟你們討論所以現在包括這些有針對包括教育部有跟我們做過這個第三人生大學的學程的研討會公聽會我們辦過很多的活動所以不要換了改朝換到以後所有事情就是當作"},{"start":661.055,"end":662.456,"text":"可以嗎?可以,跟委員報告,事實上剛才聽委員的一席話"},{"start":690.431,"end":716.747,"text":"讓我這一個事實上振奮人心我簡單的來講大學他不應該大學基本上當然一般來講18歲但是我們現在有一些學校我是鼓勵在未來我們應該要更鬆綁簡單來講在30歲以上超過30幾萬的人口那如果我們能夠重新定位大學他到底要有一些甚至我們會慢慢"},{"start":718.615,"end":743.396,"text":"大學的一個經營者開始去思考他是不是一定要招18歲因為少子化但是如果他再換30歲以後的人口就像委員剛才講的60歲有這一個600萬那我們怎麼樣讓他有一些更積極的學習所以現在包括勢力大學的轉型可以朝這個方向或者我們有實驗教育這個比較寬鬆的"},{"start":746.018,"end":747.099,"text":"謝謝兩位謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長博剛吳委員你所提到的退休"}]}},{"id":"153039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3156e14c3b75cb6bd5186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e54ef5f70db4225095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"12:15:03 - 12:25:42","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":639,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:25:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:15:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.29971875,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.269718750000003,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.509718750000001,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.19659375,"end":20.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.344093750000003,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.735343750000002,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.16971875,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.74721875,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.04659375,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.36721875,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.354093750000004,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.37471875,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.416593750000004,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.03659375,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.37409375,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.18409375,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.14534375,"end":61.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.35471875,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.26971875000001,"end":69.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.52596875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.42784375000001,"end":80.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.16596875,"end":82.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.65909375000001,"end":85.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.21159375,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.32534375,"end":94.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.95284375,"end":95.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.06659375000001,"end":96.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.51784375000001,"end":98.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.77909375,"end":103.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.41971875,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.71909375000001,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.08346875000001,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.83221875,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.69159375,"end":148.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.27346875,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.46284375000002,"end":157.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.13284375,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.35221875000002,"end":158.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.79846875,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.89971875,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.86971875,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.08034375,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.00784375,"end":175.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.15471875,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.18784375,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.44034375,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.77784375000002,"end":193.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.73909375000002,"end":198.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.56534375,"end":205.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.57284375,"end":204.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.28159375,"end":212.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.38659375,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.96034375000002,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.95971875,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.76284375,"end":245.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.97596875000002,"end":244.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.60034375,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.71409375000002,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.52346875,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.49596875000003,"end":269.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.49096875000004,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.40971875,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.73846875000004,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.19346875,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.73659375,"end":298.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.71846875,"end":299.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.32159375000003,"end":307.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.62846875,"end":310.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.66159375,"end":314.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.54284375000003,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.42409375,"end":323.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.97221875,"end":322.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.06909375000004,"end":328.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.66784375000003,"end":350.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.75159375000004,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.72159375,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.68284375,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.86846875000003,"end":337.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.95284375,"end":338.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.96034375000005,"end":344.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.90534375000004,"end":345.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.86221875,"end":360.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.49784375,"end":360.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.83534375000005,"end":366.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.34096875,"end":368.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.96096875,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.04096875000005,"end":382.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.25596875,"end":369.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.99409375000005,"end":371.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.94159375000004,"end":383.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.26221875000005,"end":384.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.15221875000003,"end":386.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.85659375,"end":405.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.24596875000003,"end":408.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.06409375000004,"end":415.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.21471875000003,"end":424.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.58471875000004,"end":426.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.47471875,"end":454.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.36034375,"end":430.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.56784375,"end":460.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.11096875000004,"end":460.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.34721875,"end":460.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.38096875,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.39784375000005,"end":460.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.51596875,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.53284375000004,"end":460.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.15721875,"end":461.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.15284375000005,"end":462.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.94596875,"end":475.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.91159375,"end":467.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.43346875000003,"end":478.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.48409375000006,"end":479.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.21346875,"end":479.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.65221875000003,"end":480.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.85034375000004,"end":498.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.23846875000004,"end":481.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.59659375,"end":485.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.73784375,"end":502.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.60659375000006,"end":506.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.63596875,"end":503.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.09971875,"end":505.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.99409375000005,"end":519.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.2197187500001,"end":534.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.0022187500001,"end":537.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.8372187500001,"end":540.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1953437500001,"end":545.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.57846875,"end":577.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.4722187500001,"end":580.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.49284375,"end":584.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6740937500001,"end":588.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.05721875,"end":590.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.4453437500001,"end":590.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.03159375,"end":590.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.08221875,"end":590.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.0990937500001,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.0347187500001,"end":598.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.1609687499999,"end":600.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.55721875,"end":607.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.9697187500001,"end":622.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.22909375,"end":630.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.9709687500001,"end":627.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.9328437500001,"end":628.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.43034375,"end":632.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.44721875,"end":633.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.0959687500001,"end":637.75409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.528,"end":16.79,"text":"謝謝主席請問部長何部長請我們長期照顧時事長來部長司長今天審議的這個就業服務法那其中有一個重點就是巴士量表你知道巴士量表在醫界還有另外一個名稱嗎請示委員"},{"start":38.51,"end":42.078,"text":"副長巴斯亮表又被稱為功德亮表阿你知道原因嗎?"},{"start":43.459,"end":69.265,"text":"嗯...是...不知道對不對?因為醫師開巴士量表是沒有一毛錢可以拿然後這裡這裡有寫啊沒開要被揍沒過會被揍開的出事要被拘提然後去你的巴士量表很多醫師恨透了這個功德量表這是一個醫師在在他的這個FB上面表達的態度喔那我們也看一下影片好了好不好等一下"},{"start":79.445,"end":93.271,"text":"好我們看一下這個影片這就是這個發射量表他沒有開成然後家屬很不滿然後就被揍這樣所以"},{"start":105.782,"end":121.518,"text":"部長你知道醫界除了這個健保點值被壓榨很不爽之外另外一件事就是這個巴氏量表啦那請教部長你認不認為放寬這個80歲以上的被看護者以及70到79歲患有癌症二期以上的國人可以免巴氏量表是可以解決這樣的狀況"},{"start":123.554,"end":142.75,"text":"我剛剛都已經強調就是我非常能夠支持這樣子的提案的精神所以我們在去年提出三個多元認定就是也是要幫忙解決這個巴士量表的困境那其實現在用多元認定的跟巴士量表比例已經一半一半了"},{"start":143.67,"end":156.989,"text":"有大量減低巴氏量表的使用啦。我相信醫界可能對這個應該是會有點感動。所以您還是不認同就是說希望可以就是直接放寬這80歲以上和這70到79歲的可以免巴氏量表的這個"},{"start":158.471,"end":183.274,"text":"不是說不認同啦,而是說主要是要考量80歲以上這個界限全放齁,裡面有那個你是說那個有癌症二期的嗎?對,部長、市長最重要的是其實這兩項政策的民意支持度都是極高喔尤其這兩種族群背後的家庭極度需要這個免罰式量表然後尤其有許多家庭成員也因此要"},{"start":184.255,"end":192.924,"text":"必須要放棄工作或者是有許多的增加許多的負擔對所以我覺得開放這個免貧才是真正的做功德不是嗎"},{"start":194.023,"end":214.843,"text":"對,其實我們可以來討論,就是那個多元認定也是免貧。那我們如果再多一些放寬的條件,我想在禮拜三主條我們可以來做一些討論好不好。對部長,因為我也要再次強調這真的很需要,所以你們勞動部自己在106年有做一個統計,每年有13萬人因為照顧要離職。"},{"start":216.825,"end":245.111,"text":"並且去年五月的主計總署也有統計這個25到64歲的未就業者有286.5萬人那其中因為照顧65歲以上家人無法工作者有5.25%那這個就是顯示離職人數每年大概有快15萬人所以部長我想降低照顧離職人數是勞動部跟衛福部都必須去加強跟努力的方向這樣才能夠讓我們勞動力可以釋放對不對但是"},{"start":245.831,"end":267.724,"text":"我覺得看到今天的報告真的是還沒有看到你們想要努力的作為啦因為你說要禮拜三再好好的討論可是我覺得沒有更積極的作為因為你們今天的說明是非常簡陋喔其實只有簡單的四行字那重點就是說勞動部要跟衛福部等跨部會還有專科醫學會學者專家跟相關團體充分討論"},{"start":269.545,"end":284.674,"text":"那這部份我當然是很認同要充分的討論喔。但是,協調部長因為去年衛福部跟勞動部針對這些族群免巴適量表的議題。其實在上一年的9月12號共同召開諮詢會議。那這9月12號其實有距離在野黨當時的總統候選人在8月29號提出這項政見中。"},{"start":290.817,"end":312.942,"text":"中間只有隔了兩個星期也就是隔了14天喔那也就是說14天其實你們就可以跨部會動起來但是現在這個法案已經一讀通過多久了我覺得看不到你們的效率看不到你們想要改善這件事情的積極度那我想是因為過去上一年是有選舉的壓力嗎所以因為有選舉壓力大家才會這麼積極嗎"},{"start":315.892,"end":343.634,"text":"沒有委員其實這個法案今天才開始這個排審啊但是之前一讀已經通過了嘛對不對一讀所以才進來委員會啊一讀並沒有討論啊是今天委員會才開始審查討論你知道這個事情其實已經有一段時間了那當然我想要講的是部長你520才上任啦我剛剛要表達就是你上任其實到現在一個星期我也沒有要怪你的意思但是的確不能怪你喔可是我想要表達的事情是我們在上一年看到這個14天的這樣的效能和效率"},{"start":344.835,"end":359.869,"text":"接下來我們再真的認真在討論這件事情可不可以拜託你們跨部會的效能動起來有有有當然我們針對今天委員的審查以及禮拜三的主條我們是有跨部會在已經積極討論的那我們是可以具體提出一些建議啦對"},{"start":361.01,"end":383.281,"text":"好,因為我們今天看到你們的報告是感覺到很多的理由是像是在復原﹖因為只是先講方向啦我們其實是支持的啦所以本席在這裡對本席在這裡就是要訴求請你們盡速的動起來真的把這個扶國立民的法案推動過去或是放寬更多讓這些需要被照顧的人以及這些需要的家庭真的可以充分獲利好不好好謝謝"},{"start":385.202,"end":407.421,"text":"那部長第二個是再來就是有關延長產產價的部分對不對那你們自己的報告都顯明喔認為爲目前產價我看到這上面你們的報告嘛那產價8週已經足夠者將近44趴那認為產價週數不足夠者有56趴基本上也就是超過半數以上都認為產價不夠"},{"start":409.122,"end":424.398,"text":"而且請教部長,你知道受調查的母體都是最近一年有申請產嫁的產嫁者。很多都是新手媽媽嗎?是。對,部長有生育經驗的媽媽過半數都認為這個產嫁不足。這個是很精準的母體喔。為何不能夠增加產嫁的天數?"},{"start":426.049,"end":453.72,"text":"委員就是說不是不能增加而是我們也很希望增加可是真的是要考慮實務上會不會增加女性的反而隱形的就業再就業歧視啦是不是有這個真的是要考慮然後牢固雙方的意願齁牢固雙方的那個然後還有包括說要做的話就要就要有用啦就要能夠用啦對所以你們報告裡面"},{"start":454.42,"end":468.837,"text":"有說女性這個針對這個部分因為需求不宜所以你們就是要考量嘛對不對好那我覺得而且那個委員跟委員報告勞基法是一個很硬的法啦你要是現在給他延長這種快撞的從8週到12週他是怎樣的他一請他就不能那個不能回來"},{"start":475.524,"end":497.759,"text":"他回來都不行,他一定要12週都全部修完。所以反而會造成那個...部長我告訴你,因為你們現在大多數你們從民調就看到民意上面56%認為不足。好,所以民意是希望延長。那你們就算你覺得12週太長,或至少應該也要可以討論嘛,到底是多久是夠的。那現在感覺都不討論,你就留下一句說這個要研議。"},{"start":498.8,"end":523.257,"text":"建議評估考量這個是我覺得不是一個我們可以來再更積極的評估好不好好部長而且你報告裡面還有提到一個我覺得很扯的啦就是你剛剛有提到這個所謂的影響到在就業的這個女性的一些歧視的問題喔你這報告裡面有提到對於事業單位的人力調度這上面及運作人有負擔是否間接影響雇用"},{"start":524.257,"end":545.324,"text":"這個育齡女性之意願應該一併考量我覺得這句話在勞動部的立場很奇怪感覺很像是站在資方的立場幫資方講話然後就說他這樣子就會被歧視所以你們這句話的潛台詞不就是僱主不會僱用懷孕女性而且可能因為這樣子會不想要僱用女性"},{"start":546.661,"end":563.623,"text":"所以我覺得這句話很奇怪也充滿歧視我覺得這樣不太合適因為你這樣的意思就是你們按照你們這樣的邏輯就是任何增加勞工權益的政策都會增加資方的負擔可能會讓他們歧視或是讓他們不想要聘請這個勞工所以不要修這個法"},{"start":564.244,"end":579.776,"text":"我覺得這個邏輯我真的很想要跟部長說你們要回去好好檢討你的報告為什麼這樣寫因為你這個邏輯你知道大家在外面會怎麼看嗎就是勞動部你應該站在勞工的權益上面幫他增加權益但是你用這個說法是不是要改名叫做自動部"},{"start":580.737,"end":599.955,"text":"就是你的講法完全的有問題。我們以後要修改這種用語。我們以後應該要修改這個用語。你用這個角度去思考你就不用想說任何勞工權益要增加啦。倒不是說不思考而是說對就是說"},{"start":601.476,"end":622.261,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":622.341,"end":633.711,"text":" »: 用語之外,最主要是針對這個產價的部分,你們應該也是要充分的去演繹說現在不足的部分。你自己都做了這麼精準的民調了,這麼精準的調查了。 »: 好,謝謝委員提醒。"}]}},{"id":"153038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b301bc8f408b87ffb4442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e8eac1b5e14df7b465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:07:42 - 12:15:44","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":482,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:15:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:07:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":785,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時7分）請部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。今天大家許多議題都環繞在打詐的部分，還有包括之前你所提出的三支箭的部分，所以在今天許多委員的質詢可以看出大家對於你上任數位發展部部長，包括新的次長及整體團隊，是有很深的期待，尤其大家更是期待希望能夠在你帶領的數位發展部跟以前能夠做出明顯的差異和進一步進展。像孟楷委員有提到打詐通報網的部分，包括剛剛健豪委員也提到，其實在這個通報網，還有包括專線，我們現在看到詐騙層出不窮，包括連小朋友、寵物，他們有時候在網路上會有比賽，大家去投票，其實那個比賽也在竊取個資。目前詐騙層出不窮，數位發展部也做了許多的工具來配合警方，其實民眾尤其在中南部鄉下，大家所缺乏的是並沒有辦法取得那麼好的一些工具，包括這些網站、知識或宣導要注意的事項，如何能夠來強化，尤其在中南部、鄉下地方，來解決大家對打詐或防詐騙知識的宣導？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會有一些宣導的服務和團隊，再利用例如DOC去做一些教育訓練。當然，我也講過我們會把一些看到的詐騙拍成短影音或文字，再利用社群平臺宣導，下鄉的很多工作我們已經在做了。"],["游委員顥：我就是提一下這個部分，也不追預算編列跟明年度預算，還有目前的成效及執行率，今天是部長第一次備詢，還是期許這三支箭，包括對於打詐的部分，能夠有所成效。也知道你跟國發會主委劉鏡清交換意見，共同要籌設AI的生態園區，在南北各設一座園區，力拚數位經濟產值2年內突破1兆元的目標，這是好事一件，但是本席想要請教一下，目前這兩個園區預計建設在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：我們還要進一步討論，剛剛也有講到其實很多地方都還滿合適，我們儘量跟地方政府配合，我和劉主委有個共識，基本原則就是我們希望這個園區一開始是2個，當然以後可能不是2個，但是這2個一開始應該要離高鐵站很近，大家彼此的交通都可以很快，所以應該會在高鐵附近，至於在哪裡，我們後面會做更進一步的說明。"],["游委員顥：部長，這樣聽來南投就比較吃虧，南投沒有高鐵站。"],["黃部長彥男：因為這個園區是上、中、下游都有，不會只有在那個地方，上游可能在辦公室，但是中游和下游都是遍布全省，所以說為什麼交通要快，我們期望AI的成果能夠推動到第一個國內，第二個到國外，所以南投我們一定會有服務在那邊，沒有問題。"],["游委員顥：因為像賴清德總統選前提出桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，其實目前許多縣市都遇到土地不夠的問題和聲音，所以在這裡也特別向部長提出邀請，中部地區其實極具開發潛力，在中部進行AI生態園區的設置不僅南投受惠，整體中彰投受惠，帶動的外溢效果，我相信包括北部、南部都會受惠。"],["黃部長彥男：同意，我們會再去評估、再去討論。"],["游委員顥：剛剛有許多委員詢問到相關問題，有幾個部分我也想接著就教，像年輕人現在愛用抖音，近期美國要求短影音平臺TikTok強制脫離母公司字節跳動，若不遵守就要禁止TikTok在美國應用程式平臺上架。請教部長，在臺灣會不會也禁用TikTok？"],["黃部長彥男：第一，因為TikTok的危害對全世界民主國家都一樣，美國已經要求在當地落地，這個大概幾個月就會發生了，我們現在希望先看美國怎麼做，我們就效法美國的作法，如果它不願在臺灣落地，最壞我就把臺灣TikTok的連結連到美國TikTok，而不會連中國的TikTok，所以我們看到的是美國版的TikTok，這是我期待看到的。所以基本上我們可以從網域的設定把臺灣能夠接收到的TikTok不會是我們認為不好的、不良的。"],["游委員顥：這部分的意見溝通和表達有跟TikTok相關平臺業者討論？"],["黃部長彥男：還沒有，但是我剛才講，第一是希望它們在臺灣落地，如果落地不成，我們就在網域上處理。"],["游委員顥：另外一個議題，臺灣也是很注重版權的地方，雖然發生許多抄襲的事件，那很遺憾，但是媒體議價以及讓媒體報導、資訊運用可以在網路社群平臺利潤公平分配的問題，請教部長，未來數發部有沒有朝向專法的方向來進行？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在還在評估，因為著作鄰接權和專法還要取得共識，有在評估中，我們希望有共識以後就處理，但是因為這牽涉到最近很多新的技術，像AI等各方面，都有同樣的問題，我們要一起處理，所以這個還在討論中。"],["游委員顥：所以方向上會往專法的方向來進行？"],["黃部長彥男：這就是我剛才講的，在我上任之後，這個還在徵詢大家意見，最主要是因為現在的技術讓我們這個問題變得比較複雜，像生成式AI這些東西的出現，讓著作權有點複雜，所以還需要進一步的討論。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，後面我們再持續請教。最後，部長對數位身分證有什麼看法？"],["黃部長彥男：數位身分證因為當初我們要專法，還有個資保護，這個要先過，我們就等這個，目前其實有些取代的方案，例如FIDO行動自然人憑證，這個可以暫時先滿足網路上認證的需求，不過數位身分證是內政部主導，我們先看專法和個資保護法完備之後如果需要推動，我們配合推動。"],["游委員顥：就是在立場上數發部還是會支持持續推動嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：網路認證有很多方法，數位身分證是一個方法，但是我們現在有行動自然人憑證FIDO，這個已經在運行，我們就先用這個。"],["游委員顥：好，後續我們再來討論。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員，剛才我不小心誤按，跟游顥委員抱歉。","現在請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.240343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.94409375,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.86784375,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.06034375000002,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.65096875,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.66784375,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.80284375000002,"end":176.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.25846875000002,"end":137.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.69284375,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.25221875,"end":150.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.00346875000002,"end":181.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.45409375,"end":182.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.61846875,"end":199.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.15784375,"end":187.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.13471875000002,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.63221875000002,"end":207.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.67784375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.09034375000002,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.15784375,"end":216.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.17471875,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.90784375,"end":241.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.32659375000003,"end":268.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.56284375,"end":272.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.30909375000005,"end":298.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.58346875,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.57221875000005,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.74409375000005,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.81846875,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.40909375,"end":381.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.42721875,"end":386.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.87346875000003,"end":388.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.18534375,"end":393.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.64034375,"end":397.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.03221875,"end":400.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.78284375000004,"end":403.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.22096875000005,"end":406.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.68471875,"end":407.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.79846875000004,"end":411.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.62909375000004,"end":415.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.64534375000005,"end":419.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.18909375000004,"end":419.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.45909375,"end":423.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.70346875,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.99784375,"end":434.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.47409375,"end":434.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.32596875,"end":443.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.94471875000005,"end":462.40596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.61409375000005,"end":453.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.49034375,"end":467.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.09721875,"end":474.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.04534375000003,"end":478.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.80846875000003,"end":478.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.84221875000003,"end":479.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.01096875,"end":479.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.06159375000004,"end":481.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.12471875000006,"end":481.03596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.113,"end":9.974,"text":"請部長。請黃部長。謝謝趙委員部長。"},{"start":18.484,"end":42.395,"text":"委員好部長好那部長就是今天大家許多的議題都環繞在打詐的部分還有包括之前您所提出的三支箭的部分所以其實在今天許多委員的質詢可以看得出大家對於您上任數位發展部部長跟您新的包括次長以及大家整體團隊是有很深的期待尤其是大家更是期待希望能夠在"},{"start":42.995,"end":65.361,"text":"您帶領的這個數位發展部跟以前的這個部的情況來講能夠做出明顯的差異跟進步進展那所以說剛才回歸到像孟凱委員有提到就是在打詐的這個通報網的部分以及包括剛才建豪委員有提到那其實在這個通報網他已經包括專線那以及包括像我們看到現在詐騙的部分是層出不窮"},{"start":65.981,"end":86.749,"text":"議員．"},{"start":86.849,"end":108.534,"text":"其實民眾尤其在中南部鄉下大家所缺乏的是大家並沒有辦法取得那麼好的一些工具或是包括這些網站或是這些知識或這些宣導的一些要注意的事項那如何能夠來去強化尤其在中南部在鄉下地方來去解決大家對於這個打詐或是防詐騙的這個知識的宣導"},{"start":110.014,"end":138.942,"text":"我們那個就是會有一些宣導的一些服務跟團隊然後再利用這個地方比如說像DOC這樣去做一些教訓練那當然我也講過就是說我們會把一些詐騙的看到詐騙拍成端影或是文字再利用這個社群平台或是他去做宣導那當然這個鄉下的這個下鄉的很多工作我們已經在做是那個我們是署長這樣子好了我這就是提一下這個部分"},{"start":140.782,"end":164.531,"text":"我也不追這個預算變略跟明年度的這個預算大概目前的這個成效跟執行率那我直接就是今天就是第一次嘛部長第一次質詢嘛那還是其像是期許啊這個三支線的這個包括打債的部分能夠有所成效那也知道您跟國發會主委劉靜清交換意見完共同要籌設這個AI的生態園區那在南北"},{"start":165.351,"end":180.782,"text":"還各設一座園區力拼數位經濟產值兩年內突破一兆的目標這是好事一件但是本席想要請教一下目前這兩個地方預計這個園區建設在哪裡那個我還沒有這跟劉主委在我們要進一步討論那剛剛有講說其實有很多"},{"start":181.502,"end":207.048,"text":"那個很多地方其實都還蠻合適說我們盡量跟地方政府配合不過現在就是這樣就是說有個基本原則我跟劉主委談的是有個共識就我們希望這個園區一開始是兩個但以後可能不只兩個但是這兩個一開始應該是要離高鐵站很近就是說大家在彼此的這個這個交通都可以很快所以應該會在高鐵的附近那至於說在哪裡我想我們後面會再做更進一步說明"},{"start":208.709,"end":223.142,"text":"謝謝部長,因為我聽到一個聲音,變成這樣,變成南投就比較吃虧了。對啊,南投就不高鐵站了。南投我們就是剛剛講,因為這個園區是上中下游都有啦。"},{"start":223.522,"end":240.699,"text":"所以不會說只有在那個地方就是說我們上游可能在所謂的這個辦公室但是中游跟下游都是遍佈全省所以為什麼說要交通快就是說我們期望就是這個AI的成果能夠推動到第一個國內第一個到國外所以南投一定是我們一定會有服務在那邊沒問題"},{"start":241.86,"end":267.587,"text":"因為像賴清德總統他選前提出逃出苗大溪谷計畫其實現在目前許多縣市都遇到土地不夠的問題跟聲音那所以在這裡也特別也跟部長做邀請就是中部地區其實是急劇開發潛力加上其實在中部來進行這個AI生態園區的設置不僅是南投受惠啦整體中張投受惠相信它帶動的外溢效果是包括連北部南部我相信都會受惠"},{"start":268.867,"end":298.113,"text":"這個同意我們會再去再去評估再去再討論好謝謝那接著是也要再接著請教因為剛才許多的委員都有詢問到一些相關問題但是有幾個部分我也想要接著就教像年輕人現在愛用抖音啊那進行美國要求短影音平臺TikTok強制脫離母公司自己的跳動若不遵守就要禁止TikTok在美國音樂城市的平臺上架那想要就教部長在臺灣會不會也會禁用到TikTok"},{"start":298.972,"end":318.608,"text":"我們實際上我們第一個就因為這個TikTok的危害對全世界民主國家都一樣那美國已經在做剛講就是要求他們在那個當地要落地嘛那我們這個大概幾個月就會發生了所以我現在希望是說我們先看美國怎麼做我們就效法美國的做法"},{"start":319.288,"end":343.352,"text":"．一最壞他如果不用在台灣落地我就把台灣的那個所謂的TikTok的那個連結連到美國的TikTok而不會去連中國的TikTok所以我們看到的TikTok是美國版的TikTok這是我所期待看到的所以就是說基本上我們可以從網域的設定這個網域的指定去把我們在台灣能夠接觸到TikTok不會是不會是那種我們認為不好的不良的"},{"start":344.392,"end":359.779,"text":"這個部分的一個意見的溝通跟表達有跟TikTok的在就是相關平台的業者來去做?還沒有但是我跟你講第一個是希望他們跟一樣要在台灣落地那當地落地如果我剛剛講說如果落地不成我們就在網路上做處理"},{"start":360.819,"end":379.919,"text":"好那接著另外一個議題就是臺灣也是很注重版權的地方啊那雖然發生許多抄襲的事件讓了遺憾但是媒體溢價還讓媒體報導資訊運用可以在網路社群平台利潤公平分配的問題那想要就教一下部長未來數法部有沒有朝向專法的方式"},{"start":380.299,"end":381.419,"text":"所以方向上是會往專法的方向來進行"},{"start":400.587,"end":401.287,"text":"最後我就是"},{"start":430.639,"end":450.308,"text":"數位身份證數位身份證部長您的態度跟看法數位身份證現在是因為這個當初我們要一個要裝潢還有個個資保護嘛這個要先過嘛那這個我們就等這個那目前其實有些取代的方法比如說FIDO就是說有些行動自然人憑證這個可以暫時先滿足現在這個網路上認證的需求不過"},{"start":451.048,"end":477.971,"text":"這個數位商證我們看就內政部在主導我們先看這些所謂的這些專法跟就是這個跟這個所謂的這個各自保護法在完備之後如果需要推動我們會配合推動那就是在立場上數位發展部還是會支持持續推動網路商證這有很多方法啦那數位商證是一個方法但是我們現在有所謂的FIDO有所謂的自然人憑證行動自然人憑證這個可以這個已經可以再運行我們就先用這一個這樣"},{"start":478.833,"end":479.736,"text":"好,那這後續再談。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b383ca4f50f1f9f83f442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e451eb654036b25b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:59:05 - 12:07:35","影片長度":"00:08:30","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":510,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:07:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:59:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時59分）主席謝謝，麻煩請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，數發部第一次來立法院業務報告，大家也都很期待，從一年多之前數發部的成立國人都很期待，希望數發部真的能夠做實事，你接下這個部長，本席也對你有所期待。首先，在打詐的部分國人還是非常關注，我們現在講關於詐騙的部分，數發部決定要加速封網，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：封網要有法，而且要有執法單位的同意，我們不會隨意封網，還是要根據法。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法隨意封網，但是過去到現在大家看到詐騙層出不窮，不管是之前的詐騙或之前吵得沸沸揚揚的創意私房的狀況，就變成三不管地帶，衛福部推給數發部，數發部推給NCC，NCC再說，就變成大家在那邊繞圈圈，真的是因為國人群起譁然之後，創意私房才一紙公文命令可以火速封網，所以我們要講的是未來還有那麼多不管是創意私房或詐騙的網站、一頁式的網頁，我們要怎樣比較能夠從源頭來解決這樣的問題。"],["黃部長彥男：一頁式的網頁我們目前並沒有辦法去封它，因為我們用的是像DNS，我們一封就是封整個網，封整個網需要一個法源依據。"],["洪委員孟楷：一頁式網頁可能是依附在社群媒體平臺。"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以這個就會如我剛才講的，我們有打詐通報查詢網，希望讓民眾或我們自己scan找到這種一頁式網頁的時候，我們可以很快的通知不管是平臺商或平臺服務商，要求它們趕快下架，希望它們下架的時間能夠縮短。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長提到一個重點，你們希望預期多久時間能夠讓社群媒體平臺下架？"],["黃部長彥男：如果打詐專法通過之後，我們當然希望即時下架，因為它如果不即時下架，我們可以罰它錢。現在的作法是說，我們目前所看到的像臉書，有時候會拖到一天甚至兩天，經過我們這樣的查詢網，希望能夠縮短到例如半天之內把它下架。"],["洪委員孟楷：半天之內？"],["黃部長彥男：對，希望。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是至少通報到24小時內可以處理。"],["黃部長彥男：第一，我們看的速度會變快，而不會像以前165報案以後還要經過人工查詢再去通報這些平臺商，我們希望一切都自動化以後，能夠很快通知平臺商，也希望它們很快能夠下架。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席提醒部長，其實從2021年當時東京奧運的時候，我就開過一個記者會，有民眾來跟我反映，他看到一頁式詐騙，東京奧運中華隊口罩、中華隊隊衣，詐騙集團很聰明，它們會用最熱門的話題，WBC世界棒球經典賽紅的時候，它們就賣世界棒球經典賽的衣服，民眾下單、下訂了、買到了，他用貨到付款的方式，真的付了錢，一打開，裡面一樣有寄來衣服，但那個衣服跟網頁上的衣服完全不一樣，這就是一頁式詐騙，這樣的網頁我們已經看到了，結果通常都還會掛在那邊，而且詐騙集團很囂張，它上面還會有計時器現在多少人買了、趕快下訂喔！這樣未來半天內有效可以讓它下架？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會跟平臺商溝通，民眾如果真的去買了這種不實的東西的通報，希望平臺商能夠儘速處理。將來也會有個類似的星級機制，就是我們在很多的電商比如會有分數，這個分數如果是4.5，這種廣告商的東西才能買，如果評價很低、很多抱怨，這種東西就算你沒有下架，民眾也應該可以看到這樣的分數。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣的分數未來也會出現在我們的打詐通報查詢網？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會要求平臺商提供這樣的分數訊息，至少當民眾買到東西是假的，抱怨以後，他給它一顆星。"],["洪委員孟楷：差評就對了！我們現在也要把詐騙網站也可以……"],["黃部長彥男：像蝦皮也有這樣的分數，民眾在採購的時候看到這個分數才知道我可不可以跟這個廠商下單，因為這確實牽涉到廠商信用問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這個3個月內可以出來，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會要求，但是我剛才講的查詢網是查訊息的真假，跟廣告的內容不實，剛講的拿到的貨品是不是真正像廣告，這個需要有人通報、報案、去打分數，我們會希望它把分數留在上面。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候能夠出來？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會再跟這些平臺商討論，希望越快越好。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有討論過？"],["黃部長彥男：我們已經跟平臺商有過幾次接觸了。"],["洪委員孟楷：它們意向如何？它們是持開放態度？還是覺得政府部門不要管我，其他國家都沒有這樣用，為什麼我要特別配合中華民國政府？它們的態度如何？"],["林次長宜敬：委員說的沒有錯，事實上我們在上個禮拜五已經跟幾個主要網路廣告平臺商溝通過，第一個抱怨就是因為很多大型平臺都是國外的公司，它們說要遵守母國的法令規定等等，我就提醒它們既然到了臺灣做生意，你們還是得遵守臺灣的法律，就像臺灣的公司到美國、日本去做生意一定要遵守它們的法律。另外它們也抱怨例如需要18個月才能修改程式，我們也提醒它，例如現在臉書本來就有限制政治性的廣告必須實名認證，我們說其實你們也不用再改程式，你們只要把現有的機制擴大為像網路投資這方面要求實名認證。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯！2020年的時候，政治類的廣告要投放預算、要下廣告就要實名制了，結果到2024年那些詐騙集團下詐騙廣告還不用實名制，莫名其妙嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：是，這個部分我們會分兩個方式來處理，一個是打詐新法通過之後，我們有一些法律上的手段可以對這些網路平臺商處以罰款。另外一方面，我們希望藉由輿論壓力，因為這涉及到它們的商譽，我們也會提醒民眾如果它們不配合的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，其實剛剛講的也是過去我們一直在詐騙遇到的狀況，其實說穿了，它們沒有什麼18個月才能改程式。"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果今天可以賺錢的項目，18個小時它們可能工程師加班也會趕出來，因為這不是賺錢的，相對來講這會限制它們收益，還有這個東西是付出成本的，所以當然能拖就拖嘛！我現在沒有指責任何一個社群媒體平臺，但是我們要的是它要善盡社會責任，不能讓社群媒體平臺變成詐騙集團的溫床或詐騙集團的管道來媒介投放詐騙廣告。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我完全同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，除了剛剛講的詐騙專法通過，你能不能多跟它們高層也好，多約喝幾次咖啡，來要求它們善盡社會責任？"],["黃部長彥男：會要求，會希望它們配合臺灣來做打詐的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們會持續來跟你溝通，我也希望你真的做出實際的成績，好不好！這一點再拜託。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員的發言。","現在請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.27534375,"end":5.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.04596875,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.09659375,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.585968750000003,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.924093750000004,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.877218750000004,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.92784375,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.68284375,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.25534375,"end":60.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.814718750000004,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.97534375000001,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.64971875,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.08784375,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.30659375,"end":104.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.71971875000001,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.67721875000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.84159375,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.06909375000001,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.35284375,"end":134.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.35159375,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.94159375,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.66096875000002,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.64346875,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.60534375,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.56284375,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.15534375000001,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.88409375,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.79909375000003,"end":214.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.27909375000002,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.50096875000003,"end":266.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.18346875000003,"end":270.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.59659375,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.26721875000004,"end":271.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.39346875,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.08909375,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.48909375,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.04971875,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.85096875,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.39096875,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.18409375000005,"end":289.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.17034375000003,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.03909375,"end":316.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.53846875,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":321.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.61784375,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.08596875,"end":326.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.27534375000005,"end":327.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.69284375,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.39721875000004,"end":337.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.91471875,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.93471875,"end":346.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.82909375,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.42659375,"end":358.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.93534375,"end":402.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.29284375000003,"end":404.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.08159375,"end":410.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.56596875,"end":411.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.69659375000003,"end":435.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.76471875000004,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.64909375,"end":448.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.29846875000004,"end":448.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.36596875000004,"end":451.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.71971875,"end":456.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.34784375000004,"end":478.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.11221875,"end":480.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.74909375000004,"end":486.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.52034375000005,"end":490.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.94159375000004,"end":491.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.29596875000004,"end":493.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.55721875,"end":499.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.39596875,"end":506.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.24784375,"end":502.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.29784375,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.44971875000005,"end":508.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.96846875000006,"end":510.97221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.318,"end":3.322,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":12.763,"end":38.382,"text":"部長好,部長數位發展部第一次來立法院業務報告大家也都很期待從一年多之前數位發展部的成立國人都很期待希望數位發展部真的能夠做實事您接下這個部長本席也對您有所期待首先在打詐的部分國人還是非常的關注那我們現在在講是說因為數位發展部決定要加速封網是不是"},{"start":38.982,"end":39.222,"text":"拜託給我一點時間。"},{"start":61.802,"end":88.696,"text":"狀況就變成是說山不管地帶啊衛福部推給速發部速發部推給NCCNCC再說所以就變成是說大家在那邊繞圈圈那真的是因為國人群起華然之後創意私房才一直公文命令可以火速的封網所以我們要講是說未來還有那麼多不管是創意私房或者是說這些詐騙的網站一夜市的網站一夜市的網頁我們要怎麼樣能夠比較源頭的來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":90.754,"end":106.916,"text":"一頁式的網頁我們目前並沒有辦法去封它因為那個我們用的是像DNS這樣子我們一封就是封整個網所以封整個網需要有法源的依據那一頁式網頁它可能是依附在社群媒體平台"},{"start":107.496,"end":134.555,"text":"對所以這個東西就會靠我剛剛講就是說我們有開始有些像剛剛講的打造通報查詢網希望就是讓民眾或是我們自己去scan去找到這種一夜市的網頁之後我們可以很快的通知不管是平台上或是平台服務商或是這樣就這樣要趕快下架希望他們下架的時間能夠縮短好部長您這樣提到一個重點了我們能夠希望預期多久時間能夠讓社群媒體平台下架"},{"start":136.448,"end":157.365,"text":"那個目前這個通報網像我們那個如果那個打詐狀況通過之後我們當然希望即時下因為他如果不即時下架我們是可以罰他錢那現在的做法是說我們目前所看到的是像臉書啊這些東西有時候會拖到一天或甚至兩天那經過我們這樣的查詢希望能夠縮短到比如說半天之內把它下架"},{"start":157.585,"end":157.785,"text":"是部長"},{"start":177.262,"end":204.676,"text":"本席提醒喔其實從2021年當時的東京奧運的時候我就開過一個記者會就有媒體就有民眾來跟我反映他看到一夜市詐騙東京奧運中華隊口罩中華隊對一他詐騙集團很聰明啊他們會用最熱門的話題啊WBC世界棒球經典賽紅的時候他們就說是賣世界棒球經典賽的衣服那民眾下單下訂了買到了他用貨到付款的方式"},{"start":205.336,"end":205.716,"text":"稍後的報告"},{"start":221.705,"end":245.276,"text":"詐騙集團很囂張阿他下面還有那個計時器一直講說現在有多少人買了多少人買了趕快下訂喔那這樣子未來半天內有效可以剛剛下架是嗎就是說我們會跟平台商剛剛講說溝通就是說像這種那個民眾如果是像這種真的去買這種不實的東西的時候的通報所以我希望平台商能夠盡速的處理"},{"start":245.776,"end":272.398,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":272.498,"end":298.166,"text":"提供這樣的一個分數的訊息至少有民眾說我買的東西是假的那這個東西他抱怨了以後他給他一顆心或兩顆心等於是擦屏就對了就我們現在也要把那個對像撒騙網站也可以比說PC或蝦皮他們都有這種分數嘛是那就跟民眾在採購的時候看到這個分數才知道說我可不可以跟這個廠商下單因為這個確實牽涉到這個廠商的心理問題部長這個三個月內可以出來"},{"start":298.686,"end":298.806,"text":"有沒有討論過?"},{"start":326.425,"end":337.701,"text":"他們的意向如何?他們是持開放的態度還是覺得說你政府部門不要管我其他國家都沒有這樣用為什麼我要特別配合我們中華民國政府他們的態度如何?"},{"start":338.936,"end":362.399,"text":"有人說的沒有錯,事實上我們在上個禮拜五已經跟幾個主要的網路平台商跟他們溝通過他們第一個抱怨就是說他們是因為都是國外很多大型的平台都是國外的公司他們說他們要遵守母國的那個法律規定等等那我就提醒他們說既然你們到了台灣做生意你們還是得遵守台灣的法律"},{"start":362.699,"end":362.739,"text":" 是。 是。"},{"start":381.334,"end":402.344,"text":"那個政治性的廣告必須就是做實名認證是那我們說你們其實也不用再改你們的程式你們只要把現有的這個機制把它擴大為像這種網路投資的這方面也要求進行實名認證沒錯2020年的時候政治類的廣告要投放預算廣告要下廣告最後要實名制了"},{"start":403.322,"end":418.461,"text":"二零二零年的時候就要了就到二零二四年那些詐騙集團下詐騙廣告還不用實名制莫名其妙嗎是那我們這一這部分我們會分為兩個管道來兩方式來處理一個就是我們在打詐新法"},{"start":419.282,"end":443.32,"text":"通過之後呢我們有一些法律上的手段可以對這些網路平台商處以罰款那另外一方面我們就希望藉由那個輿論還有的壓力就是因為這涉及到他們的商譽那我們也會提醒民眾說來部長最後一分鐘好不好因為主席已經站起來部長其實剛剛這樣子講我想這也是過去我們一直在這些詐騙裡面遇到的狀況"},{"start":444.221,"end":467.842,"text":"其實說穿了啦 他們沒有什麼18個月才能改程式啦 如果今天可以賺錢的program 18個小時他們可能工程師加班也都趕出來啊 因為這個不是賺錢的 這個是相對來講會限制他們的收益的 還有就是這個東西是付出成本的 所以當然能拖就拖嘛 我現在沒有指責任何一個社群媒體平台"},{"start":468.442,"end":490.359,"text":"但是我們要的是他要散盡社會責任不能讓社群媒體平台變成是詐騙集團的一個溫床或是詐騙集團的管道來去媒介去投放詐騙廣告所以部長除了剛剛講的詐騙專法通過你能不能多跟他們高層也好多約喝幾次咖啡"},{"start":491.68,"end":507.412,"text":"來要求他們善遵社會責任。對啦,就是說會要求然後會希望他們配合我們台灣來做打詐的工作。好,部長我們會持續的來跟你溝通。我也希望真的做出實際的成績。好不好?好,謝謝洪委員的發言。"}]}},{"id":"153036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b348e656a3daab1acb442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e741abac731c48f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:52:40 - 11:58:56","影片長度":"00:06:16","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":376,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:58:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:52:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時52分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想大家都非常關心的還是詐騙的問題，當然數發部是最新成立的一個部，對於詐騙大概也是很重要的一個部門，我們是一個ICT大國，但是我們的數位建設好像並沒有非常先進，對吧？"],["黃部長彥男：關於數位建設，我們過去這幾年比如數位政府推了20年，其實我們推了很多東西並不輸給國外，像電子發票、網路報稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們去一趟美國大概已經不太看得到美金了，甚至你去一趟大陸大概也看不到人民幣，可是臺灣的電子支付還是不夠普遍，這有可能也是數發部接下來需要做的事。接著我想問一下有關詐騙，因為唐鳳部長在的時候我們一再問他，現在的詐騙案包括虛擬資產、第三方支付都是最新興的產業，這些產業可能因為它的便利性而成為詐騙工具之一，所以現在的問題是我們抓了很多、很多詐騙的犯人，但是我們找不到被詐騙的錢，部長同意吧？"],["黃部長彥男：事實上應該這樣講，根據我手上的資料，去年我們阻擋詐騙的錢跟扣留的錢超過將近100億，所以事實上是有一些錢還是……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，這是有追回來的，但很多追不回來。"],["黃部長彥男：有些是追不回來。"],["黃委員珊珊：大部分的被害人都是收到一個判決書，然後車手沒錢了，再見！沒有下一步，所以我們希望成立一個……不管是現在的打詐專法，還有現在正在審的洗錢防制法。部長，現在的問題是到目前為止，我就舉虛擬資產當例子好了，它跟調查局、刑事局有一定的溝通管道，但每個單位要通報銀行就沒有管道，然後跟165、跟警察之間要靠傳真來做聯絡，甚至法院會跟虛擬資產業者調資料，但是也沒有平臺，檢察官也會調資料，也沒有平臺，現在這個問題是所有通報機制都是互相斷開的，也就是說，目前為止，可能大部分虛擬資產業者也想通報異常狀況，可是並沒有任何的機制，所以在唐鳳部長的時候，我就跟他說這些事情你要法務部或金管會來做其實是很困難的，數發部大概是目前政府部門裡面對於相關的機制，包括之前很成功的111政府簡訊平臺、振興券和疫情期間的系統，其實數發部是應該有能力來建置這個平臺，部長同意嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們短碼平臺本來就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說將來的防詐平臺，包括虛擬資產業者、包括第三方支付、包括現在有的銀行之間，它們現在完全沒有聯絡，虛擬資產業者跟銀行是沒有辦法接觸的，但是它們很多帳戶是同一個，我要講的是，民眾要的是我們扣錢的速度要比詐騙集團來得快，我們才扣得住錢。"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們成立一個打詐通報查詢網，就是希望能夠很快的……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在這些都沒有進到你的查詢網，部長，我需要你的時間，雖然你剛上任，我覺得這件事情很重要。"],["黃部長彥男：同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：打詐專法出來了，洗錢防制法出來了，但是平臺沒有建置起來就等於沒有用。"],["黃部長彥男：3個月之內我們會建立這個平臺。"],["黃委員珊珊：3個月？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在有碰到一個問題，我們現在正在審洗錢防制法，我們查了一下，數發部到今年為止，數發部也是洗錢防制的一個重要機關，但是你們部裡面有關洗錢防制專業證照的人有多少？"],["呂署長正華：因為我們成立一年多，其中有一位同仁也到國外受訓。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在是0。"],["呂署長正華：有一位到韓國受訓。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在有1，接下來你要有多少？"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員的指導，人才培養我們會努力，因為我們負責的是洗錢防制裡頭第三方支付這一塊，虛擬資產這一塊與金管會協作，金管會不管過去的主委、現任的主委都很支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：署長，我都理解，我的意思是說我們不能夠落後人家，我們洗錢防制人員只有1個……"],["呂署長正華：我們會努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：證照的部分可能要請部長努力，如果我們要跟國際接軌，洗錢防制是最重要的機制，數發部這麼先進的單位竟然這麼落後，如果我們要數發部來引導臺灣不管是打詐也好，或者是數位金融，這些都應該在洗錢防制上面有一定的功能，絕對不能落後，好嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們管第三方支付，金管會管超過一定規模的電子支付，部長認為第三方支付應該是你管？還是金管會管？"],["黃部長彥男：現在第三方支付我們已經在處理了。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你會管嗎？你管金流嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有個能量登錄，他要申請虛擬帳號一定要經過我們能量登錄。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在很多新興科技都有不同的管道，但是如果打詐要畢其功於一役，我們希望你能夠把這個部分，包括剛剛講的虛擬資產它在管，第三方支付你在管，但是平臺之間不聯絡，這才是我要問的事，數發部應該來統合讓這些單位聯絡在一起，他用了虛擬帳戶，可能又跟第三方支付有關，可能又跟銀行帳戶有關，這其實需要一個系統來統合。"],["黃部長彥男：我們正在建這個系統。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望數發部來協助另外兩個單位，因為它們其實沒有能力、也沒有辦法在這些所謂的技術上面做到這樣的合作。部長，我期待3個月內看到你平臺的建立。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","現在請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.17409375,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.54096875,"end":4.3678437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.53659375,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.442843750000002,"end":10.847843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.847843750000003,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.74471875,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.258468750000002,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.282218750000006,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.158468750000004,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.854093750000004,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.642843750000004,"end":54.908468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.836593750000006,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.23784375000001,"end":81.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.17846875000001,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.59534375000001,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":93.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.63659375,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.99909375,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.62721875000001,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.94596875,"end":123.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.64034375000001,"end":139.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.05971875,"end":154.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.06159375000001,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.62596875,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.43471875,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.25659375,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.45909375000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.47596875000002,"end":176.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.50971875000002,"end":177.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.53909375,"end":182.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.77909375000002,"end":191.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.16971875000002,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.02159375000002,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.03846875000002,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.27846875,"end":200.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.07971875,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.25659375,"end":203.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.34096875,"end":206.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.45471875,"end":205.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.32784375,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.58096875,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.68596875,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.59284375000001,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.34784375,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.36034375000003,"end":214.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.68096875,"end":218.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.59221875,"end":220.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.57471875000002,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.19909375,"end":229.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.49784375000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.83471875,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.06096875000003,"end":242.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.20409375000003,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.03909375,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.18659375000001,"end":247.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.11471875,"end":273.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.71721875000003,"end":252.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.75096875000003,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.97034375,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.93221875,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.28409375,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.56159375000004,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.83159375,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.52596875,"end":295.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.69784375,"end":309.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.82221875000005,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.18034375,"end":317.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.61034375,"end":318.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.76596875,"end":326.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.19534375,"end":334.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.88159375000004,"end":373.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.50846875,"end":376.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.93409375000005,"end":376.96784375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.937,"end":4.679,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長請部長是部長我想大家都還是非常關心的都是詐騙的問題那當然數發部是新成立的一個最新的部但是對於詐騙大概也是很重要的一個部門我們是一個ICT大國但是我們的數位建設好像並沒有非常的先進對吧"},{"start":29.552,"end":50.852,"text":"數位建設其實我們過去這幾年像比如說數位政府推了20年其實我們推很多東西並不輸給國外像電子花票啦我們網路報稅但是我們如果去一趟美國大概已經不太看得到美金了甚至你去一趟大陸大概也看不到人民幣可是台灣的電子支付還是不夠普遍這可能也是數八部接下去需要做的事"},{"start":51.912,"end":81.712,"text":"好接下來我想問一下有關詐騙因為唐鳳部長在的時候我們有一再問他現在的詐騙案包括虛擬資產包括第三方支付大概都是最新興的產業那這些產業他可能因為他的便利性而成為詐騙的工具之一所以現在的問題是我們抓了很多很多的詐騙的犯人但是我們找不到被詐騙的錢主委同意吧部長同意吧"},{"start":82.432,"end":110.844,"text":"我們事實上應該這樣講去年根據我手上的資料去年我們這個阻擋了這個詐騙的錢跟扣留的錢差不多將近100億所以事實上是有些錢還是有追回來的但是很多是追不回來有些是追不回來的大部分的被害人都是收到一個判決書然後車手沒錢了再見沒有沒有下一步所以我們希望的是能夠成立一個不管是現在打詐專法還有現在正在審的期錢防治法"},{"start":111.994,"end":127.279,"text":"部長現在的問題是我們現在目前為止包括我就舉虛擬資產來當例子好了他跟調查局跟刑事局有一定的溝通的管道他每一個單位要通報銀行他就沒有管道"},{"start":127.899,"end":155.982,"text":"然後跟165跟警察之間要靠傳真來做聯絡甚至法院會跟虛擬資產業者調資料但是也沒有平台檢察官也會調資料也沒有平台那現在這個問題是所有的通報機制都是互相斷開的也就是說大部分目前為止可能我是虛擬資產業者我也很想通報我這邊的異常狀況可是我並沒有任何的機制所以我在唐鳳部長在的時候我就跟他說"},{"start":157.083,"end":177.108,"text":"這些事情其實你要法務部或者是金管會來做其實很困難的數發部大概是目前政府部門裡面對於這些相關的機制包括之前很成功的111政府簡訊平台還有徵信券還有疫情期間其實數發部是應該有能力來建置這個平台部長同意嗎"},{"start":177.688,"end":204.546,"text":"就是我們那個短碼平台本來就是我的意思是說將來的詐騙防詐的平台包括虛擬制裁業者包括第三方支付包括現在有的銀行之間他們現在完全沒有聯絡虛擬制裁業者跟銀行是沒有辦法接觸的但是他們很多賬戶是同一個我要講的是民眾要的是我們要我們扣錢的速度要比詐騙集團來得快我們才扣得住錢"},{"start":206.807,"end":228.718,"text":"對,報告委員所以我從那個打詐通報查詢網就是希望能夠很快的但是現在這些都沒有進到你的查詢網對還沒有查詢網還沒有成為部長我需要你的時間雖然你剛上任我覺得這件事情很重要打詐專法出來了洗錢方針法出來了但是平台沒有建置起來就等於是沒有用所以3個月之後3個月之內我們會建立這個平台3個月對"},{"start":230.358,"end":245.405,"text":"我現在有碰到一個問題我們現在正在審洗錢防治法那洗錢防治法我們查了一下數發部到今年為止數發部也是洗錢防治的一個重要的機關但是你們部裡面有關洗錢防治專業證照的人有多少?"},{"start":246.337,"end":246.357,"text":"韓國受訓"},{"start":276.717,"end":277.899,"text":"我們會來努力。我們會努力。是。好。是。"},{"start":295.977,"end":318.149,"text":"這些都應該在行前方式上面有一定的功勞就絕對不能夠落後好嗎最後就是你們在管第三方支付那金管會又管電子支付超過一定規模所以部長認為第三方支付應該是你管還是金管會管現在第三方支付我們已經在處理了但是你會管嗎你管金流嗎"},{"start":319.357,"end":334.409,"text":"我們就是有個能量登錄他那個那個他要去申請虛擬帳號一定要經過我們能量登錄所以現在就是很多的新興的科技都有不同的管道但是如果打炸要必攻其一役我們希望你能夠把這個部分"},{"start":335.409,"end":354.968,"text":"包括剛剛講的虛擬資產他在管第三方支付你在管但是平台之間不聯絡這才是我要問的是數發部應該來統合讓這些單位聯絡在一起他用了虛擬賬戶可能又跟第三方支付有關可能又跟銀行賬戶有關他其實是需要一個系統來統合"},{"start":356.209,"end":356.97,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"153035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3651c7b33014c17d55186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e486914daaa45fd855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:07:46 - 12:15:00","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:15:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T12:07:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.46846875,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.240343750000001,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.742218750000003,"end":19.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.234718750000003,"end":25.140968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.140968750000003,"end":44.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.104093750000004,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.13784375,"end":47.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.48346875,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.635343750000004,"end":64.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.642843750000004,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.85784375,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.33721875,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.33221875000001,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.61284375000001,"end":83.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.40221875,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.24659375000002,"end":165.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.59159375000002,"end":185.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.50409375,"end":205.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.87221875,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.74221875,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.19659375,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.71409375000002,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.29159375,"end":250.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.35034375,"end":259.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.39971875000003,"end":259.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.53034375000004,"end":264.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.61409375,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.87971875,"end":266.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.76971875000004,"end":270.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.43159375,"end":273.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.44846875,"end":272.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.74784375,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.28346875,"end":280.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.21971875,"end":277.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.67909375,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.01971875000004,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.04034375000003,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.71909375,"end":300.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.18284375,"end":297.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.19909375000003,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.74721875,"end":304.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.33346875,"end":305.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.94096875,"end":306.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.50159375000004,"end":310.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.45909375,"end":311.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.62721875,"end":315.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.67784375,"end":315.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.99846875000003,"end":316.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.51596875,"end":327.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.89096875,"end":329.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.59534375000004,"end":332.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.14346875,"end":335.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.60721875,"end":340.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.20971875000004,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.91221875,"end":384.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.07221875000005,"end":389.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.99159375000005,"end":387.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.30346875000004,"end":389.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.84346875,"end":390.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.87284375,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.99909375000004,"end":401.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.16659375,"end":410.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.20409375,"end":404.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.79409375,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.38034375,"end":420.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.29846875000004,"end":423.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.93971875000005,"end":422.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.69471875000005,"end":427.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.82096875,"end":429.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.13284375,"end":429.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.22971875,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.44909375000003,"end":429.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.97221875,"end":429.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.98909375000005,"end":430.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.63034375,"end":430.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.95096875,"end":430.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.06034375,"end":434.74784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.674,"end":10.486,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":12.476,"end":38.235,"text":"市長好市長好,針對今天本席跟顏光衡等16人所提的第46條第46條的第四項修正徵定那你的看法呢?委員我非常肯定支持您的提案的精神那麼是不是說我們這一個因為目前現行我剛才解釋過已經有針對巴士量表也是因為您的這一個"},{"start":39.035,"end":58.804,"text":"你提案的這個主張所以我們其實在去年十月就已經新增三項多元認定只是增加寬寬一點點但是我們發覺到目前為止之所以會提案提出這個問題就是社會面向它是有需要的它迫切需要在這樣的情況之下我們實質來討論我們大概在2025年會進入到這個高齡人口應該會超過20%"},{"start":65.367,"end":93.608,"text":"二十八呢是等於在全世界裡頭是超高齡化的社會那國安會也預估在八年後我們會有超過一百一十八萬私人的人口需要照顧所以面對兩邊燒面對家庭的人口它是越來越少所以換句話說平均年齡會越來越大的這個趨勢那家屬跟病患所需要聘請看護的需求它會增加"},{"start":93.968,"end":114.991,"text":" ︎ ︎ ︎ ︎ ︎"},{"start":115.151,"end":131.631,"text":"那所以之所以本席提出了第46條第四項的部分呢就是僱主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者的資格條件這個是影響到很多的家庭真正需要的他請不到"},{"start":132.392,"end":152.426,"text":"哇 這個很傷痛腦筋 這個影響到整個社會的勞動力很多甚至我乾脆我就放棄工作我就自己來照顧這樣整個是一個惡性循環惡性循環所以政府有條件而且有義務有責任要好好的來照顧這些所以我們提供了一個也就是年滿80歲以上得免經醫療機構之專業評估也就是所謂的"},{"start":157.329,"end":184.518,"text":"提出的八十量表。我希望部長你剛才在回答當中本席都有聽到你要開了很多的這個指向更寬廣的納進來但是你剛才包括過的跟NGO團體那也只是要示範找一兩個團體來示範那這個緩不濟急本席不反對你去示範但是你要嚴肅的去考慮社會的面向的確需要的時候那整個"},{"start":185.538,"end":205.913,"text":"議員：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":206.213,"end":227.247,"text":"大概七十七萬左右但是失聯的八萬五那本席認為還不止這個數字這是顯性的隱性的還沒出來那當然你在2023年的時候你查處了兩萬七的失聯移工雖然說成效是歷年最佳但是跟實際上聯繫不上的還有四分之三"},{"start":227.867,"end":233.05,"text":"所以這個數字我希望說我們針對問題來討論針對問題來討論所以在這樣的一個情況之下黑工的問題相對的越來越普遍那甚至我們看到有新南向產學的專班"},{"start":245.857,"end":263.523,"text":"他來的時候他的工作時間比他學的還要多。那這個是不對的一個行為啊。所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教你身為部長你要怎麼樣避免這個失聯持續惡化。請教。所以委員這失聯的原因有非常多啦齁。"},{"start":265.162,"end":294.667,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":294.667,"end":324.667,"text":" ﹖楊瓔"},{"start":324.767,"end":325.928,"text":"提出這一環,你要怎麼做?"},{"start":346.326,"end":375.065,"text":"因為你所提出的雙就業雙照顧你要促進工作跟家庭的一個平衡那你勞動部研議的示範方案跟獎勵措施你要找出受雇者可以兼顧工作與家庭這樣子的可行性方案跟彈性的工作方式所以本席要請教你你要怎麼樣落實特別在照顧留職停薪的這一環你要怎麼研議"},{"start":375.945,"end":390.582,"text":"因為我們要怎麼樣讓女性解開家庭的照顧責任的這個束縛。這一點非常重要。你怎麼做?好,謝謝委員支持我照顧柳婷的構想。對啊,你怎麼做?其實這是一個新的想法。你怎麼做?你預計要怎麼做?"},{"start":390.922,"end":420.242,"text":" »:目前我正在規劃中,我容我找時間來跟您報告。 »:目前我正在規劃中,我容我找時間來跟您報告。 »:這個對女性來講是很重要,因為女性留職提薪之後在回屋職場不到五成,很浪費。這些都是人才,都是國家的勞動力。所以針對你所提出的雙就業雙照顧,你要怎麼樣能夠替我們女性解開家庭照顧責任的束縛,讓我們的勞動力可以加強。這個是你非常重要的課題。你研議好,"},{"start":420.862,"end":434.65,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"153034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3669b75a8938a79b35186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e5833b53648dc34095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:57:56 - 12:07:42","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":586,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:07:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:57:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.29596875,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.949718750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.88159375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.88909375,"end":54.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.229093750000004,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.704718750000005,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.92784375000001,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.76659375,"end":72.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.11221875000001,"end":75.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.50409375000001,"end":78.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.22534375000001,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.22096875000001,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.07221875,"end":87.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.40096875,"end":93.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.51846875000001,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.37909375000001,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.23409375,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":107.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.49096875000001,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.95909375000001,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.24596875,"end":109.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.05596875,"end":110.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.12284375,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.75971875,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.90284375,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.00221875,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.32596875000002,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.92471875,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.34221875,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.08034375000003,"end":207.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.91409375,"end":213.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.60596875000002,"end":208.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.37784375,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.07346875000002,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.91284375,"end":218.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":223.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.90784375,"end":221.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.60346875000002,"end":227.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.37096875,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.89409375000002,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.09659375,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.88971875000001,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.90659375,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.97409375,"end":237.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.24784375000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.95159375000003,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.03284375000004,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.64409375,"end":266.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.73221875,"end":269.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.53721875,"end":273.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.72284375000004,"end":272.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.35534375000003,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.86971875,"end":275.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.17284375,"end":280.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.60284375000003,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.70784375,"end":299.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.56346875,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.60471875,"end":300.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.35534375000003,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.11471875,"end":302.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.84409375,"end":316.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.40409375,"end":313.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.28971875,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.42346875000004,"end":350.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.39596875,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.76971875000004,"end":349.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.00159375000004,"end":369.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.67159375,"end":356.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.44721875000005,"end":362.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.46284375000005,"end":369.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.82971875000004,"end":371.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.75346875,"end":412.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.77034375000005,"end":372.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.95159375000003,"end":373.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.50784375,"end":377.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.11846875000003,"end":385.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.29471875,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.47159375,"end":393.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.92034375000003,"end":411.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.01284375,"end":422.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.55159375000005,"end":422.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.61471875,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.64846875,"end":423.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.72846875000005,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.96471875000003,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.01534375,"end":424.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.97721875,"end":425.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.23034375000003,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.15409375,"end":427.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.75284375,"end":430.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.97784375000003,"end":456.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.55471875,"end":458.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.99721875,"end":466.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.90846875000005,"end":460.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.81971875000005,"end":461.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.03846875000005,"end":466.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.32096875,"end":466.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.33784375000005,"end":466.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.55721875,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.47034375000004,"end":488.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.52034375000005,"end":493.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.01284375000006,"end":501.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.22721875,"end":499.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.49284375,"end":502.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.72034375000004,"end":502.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.75409375000004,"end":502.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.78784375000004,"end":503.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.59784375000004,"end":503.71596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.71596875000006,"end":503.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.96909375,"end":506.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.66909375000006,"end":513.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.95096875,"end":525.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.61659375,"end":519.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.4172187500001,"end":527.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.4422187499999,"end":545.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.8334687500001,"end":535.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.0134687500001,"end":544.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.51971875,"end":544.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.63784375,"end":566.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.18471875,"end":555.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.05659375,"end":576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.09784375,"end":572.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.00846875,"end":577.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.1728437500001,"end":577.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.96596875,"end":582.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.68721875,"end":582.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.42909375,"end":585.27284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.585,"end":30.763,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,請部長。部長好。部長,在這一陣子,國內的這個腸病毒是持續在上升當中。那我們也看到這個腸病毒是創下十年來的新高。那我想請教就是說,我們現在這個勞工的一年有七天的家庭照顧假。"},{"start":31.724,"end":51.634,"text":"那你們有沒有特別去做一個統計就是在最近這幾年當中就是我們這個勞工請的這個家庭照顧假到底有多少人申請那是不是有的勞工要申請這個家庭照顧假有他的"},{"start":52.056,"end":80.179,"text":" ﹝﹝﹝"},{"start":80.339,"end":90.371,"text":"所以沒有特別去針對這個勞工請家庭照顧假這樣的一個這個狀況去做一個統計目前沒有做這樣的統計目前沒有做這樣的統計那未來是不是"},{"start":94.44,"end":113.787,"text":"所以不需要對他也比較沒辦法掌握數據啦除非我去做民調吧或是做對因為他因為像大量解雇那個雇主要通報來的可是像這個他是不用是或是對所以比較難掌握這樣比較難掌握那未來有沒有可能針對這一部分去做一個瞭解"},{"start":114.107,"end":115.068,"text":"關於勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":137.649,"end":165.117,"text":"聽到也有看到很多的長輩我碰到可能有很多長輩他確實有需要這樣的一個這個聘請外籍看護來家裡面幫忙那有時候確實又要到這個醫院去去申請這個巴士量表確實有他的困難那我們又看到就是說如果如果是用這個年齡去切這個申請"},{"start":166.276,"end":181.008,"text":"外籍看護會不會造成實際上有需求的人反而可能會有他的困難所以我是請勞動部是不是可以針對這部分你們來說明未來剛剛我有聽部長講就是說會有這個外展"},{"start":187.313,"end":212.46,"text":"這個外籍移工的這個家庭看護工的這個外展計畫那你們目前有做這樣的一個計畫那預計是什麼時候上路對委員就是這個計畫其實現在已經在研擬然後而且要開始試辦了下半年就會上就會開始試辦上路然後對下半年對現在已經五月五月底了欸你們是幾月預計是幾月九月"},{"start":215.973,"end":225.598,"text":"我們下半年就會開始試辦上路。對。下半年會開始試辦。那你會從哪一方面,你會從你們會怎麼試辦?"},{"start":225.598,"end":238.805,"text":"這個是不是可以在這邊先?那就跟委員解釋。它是一個這樣的就是說用NGO跟NGO合作。是。好。那麼然後我們請NGO跟仲介合組一個team。然後呢他們我們會進行評選。"},{"start":240.486,"end":270.247,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":270.58,"end":297.786,"text":"就是比較像那個NGO單位,我們那個NGO單位到時候應該會很多啦。就是比如說像我們現在長照體系裡面有很多NGO團體,其實當然他們都會可以是潛在的對象。對,那其實他們都已經散佈在台灣各地方了。那你預計是這個下半年度你們就要開始試辦的話,那你們現在應該什麼NGO的這個一些組織跟你們有合作,你們應該目前該都確定了嗎?"},{"start":297.786,"end":299.987,"text":"有,有合作,對,有有有。"},{"start":300.367,"end":323.473,"text":"對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對"},{"start":323.493,"end":348.034,"text":"委員我這個部分我可不可以找一個比較我看甚至我們可以來委員會做專案報告給我一點時間因為我們這個是必須要有完整的來報告比較好啦你說哪些縣市或哪些團體這些都比較是屬於我們現在還在規劃中的東西那現在就貿然跟您報告對我想也不是很妥當"},{"start":348.955,"end":356.203,"text":"我擔心因為你剛跟我講說下半年度要試辦應該整個計劃也逐漸有一個成型了所以我才會問說那你們未來因為下半年度現在已經五月底了即將就邁入第六"},{"start":372.058,"end":397.75,"text":"一﹑ 六月嘛。那下半年度應該就是開始。下半年度的開始。所以我是希望就是說因為地方這個民眾有這樣的一個需求。那當然說我希望你們推出來的這個方式應該是讓民眾申請也方便。有它的可敬性啦。就是說方便那整個流程或者是文件的這個"},{"start":398.831,"end":415.828,"text":" ﹝﹞"},{"start":415.828,"end":432.142,"text":" ﹝﹝﹞"},{"start":432.142,"end":447.875,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":447.875,"end":470.452,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏�"},{"start":470.712,"end":493.215,"text":"的家庭照顧假。那我在上禮拜我有特別提到就是說有關這一個照顧留職停薪。是不是未來有可能朝著這個方向就是說比照這個育嬰、育嬰留庭的這樣的一個方式。不知道有沒有可能是朝著這個方向去做。謝謝委員支持。我確實有這個想法。然後當然這部分可是這部分也牽涉到"},{"start":494.156,"end":502.8,"text":"要不要給新等等這些規劃要需要一點時間好不好對是是我們會來規劃預計什麼時候總是你們要規劃要給一個期程吧對我盡快來規劃然後對其實已經在開始在思考這些了對因為如果未來你剛剛講的我們我們的這個有更多元的這個方式對那其實如果說可能兩三個月也許"},{"start":523.609,"end":544.718,"text":" ﹝﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":545.259,"end":564.319,"text":"對,我們希望能夠讓婦女能夠更多的,因為有的企業她會,有的女性啦,就是因為要照顧嘛,她就不敢出去工作。那如果有照顧流行這種來輔助的話,man比她的那個出外工作的意願會比較高。我們可以因此更提升婦女的就業率這樣子,對。"},{"start":566.501,"end":580.868,"text":" ﹖我希望說這個部分是不是也要一併﹖也一併要去競述﹖會﹖跟這個我們今天討論的這樣才有辦法銜接﹖沒錯﹖還有移工就是我們外長服務進入家庭服務﹖謝謝﹖"}]}},{"id":"153033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3e34306c5161fb9aae6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9ed570e946f8b200bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:53:07 - 12:06:17","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":790,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T12:06:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:53:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":587,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時53分）謝謝主席，我們有請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，我們請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。首先，我想我們上個禮拜有青鳥行動，街道上面各式各樣年輕人的創意，學生們自主地在全臺灣發起了這樣表達自己意見的聲量，創意無限，我想這應該都代表說我們過去這幾年在做兒童表意權這件事情，其實是有得到一個不錯的成果嘛！對不對？我想就是說，我就會針對兒童表意權這件事情持續來做一些討論，因為其實在聯合國有規定兒童是有權利去參與公共事務，在2022年的兒童權利公約國際審查結論性意見其實也有提到，我們中央應該也要提供這樣子的機會給年紀較小的兒童參與，兒童權利公約裡面保障的兒童其實是未滿18歲以下的兒童跟少年，因為我們希望可以更早地讓他們參與，這樣子他們長大的時候才會有更好的政策討論的表現，但是我看了一下，其實當時也有建議教育部的人權工作小組應該要來增加兒少代表，但我看這個名單是18歲以上，都沒有12歲以下，所以我想要瞭解在這一端，我們從2022年國際審查到現在也將近快要一年半的時間，這個進度現在是怎麼樣？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們已經完成了設置要點的修改，將來會加入兒少代表，不過在新聘委員的部分，目前還在作業中。"],["張委員雅琳：這個作業大概什麼時候會完成？"],["吳司長林輝：應該在完成改組之後就會有兒少代表。"],["張委員雅琳：所以改組是什麼時間？可以直接給我一個時間點嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：應該在8月份左右。"],["張委員雅琳：8月份，好，我希望在8月份之後，我就可以看到18歲以下的兒童一起來參與這些政策的討論。","下一題，還是回到我自己過去在民間所關心的，就是兒童遊戲權這件事情，2023年特公盟這個民間組織採訪了北高兩地的兒童，這是小孩自己說的話，他說下課跟放學後或是假日都沒有時間遊戲，因為他下課的時候可能要補寫或罰寫，或者是老師會要求他完成體能作業，這個體能作業其實跟SH150非常有關係，因為SH150希望孩子培養運動的習慣嘛！但是學校通常就是叫他們跑操場跟跳繩，所以他的大下課時間就要去完成這項作業，他就沒有時間去玩耍。再來，他自己說他的上學時間比大人的上班時間還要長，他放學之後可能要去安親班或者是留在學校的課後班，所以他不太有時間遊戲，不太有時間遊戲其實是非常影響到孩子的身心健康發展。","在2013年吳佩昌醫師也做了一個研究，他說每天增加80分鐘的戶外活動可以將近視率減半，這是有顯著的差異，他也在世界衛生組織去發表這些研究報告，所以我想要瞭解在這件事情上面，第一個，我們可不可以先檢討SH150的執行方式，在學校落實的面向是不是可以有一些調整？第二個，在新竹有一個叫做課後運動班，我們是不是可以來規劃一個課後遊戲班，讓學校可以來參考，增加遊戲的時間？第三個，在結論性意見裡面也有講到，我們應該要去強化家庭教育中心的功能性，讓家長瞭解休息、遊戲和休閒對孩子身心發展的重要性，每年要辦理120場次。針對這三點，不曉得部長可不可以給我一些回復？"],["鄭部長英耀：我非常同意委員所提的，遊戲事實上對學生創意的想像跟創意的培養是非常重要的，那也不容否認，我們過去大概都認為「業精於勤荒於嬉」，尤其是少子化後，家長們都很擔心他的小孩輸在起跑點上，我想這個部分我們會積極地透過跟家長的分享，把更多科學研究的證據讓家長知道，給小孩子有一些喘氣的空間，包括讓老師也很清楚地理解到，下課10分鐘或者課後對學生的發展及身心健康是很重要的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯。"],["鄭部長英耀：讀書以外，事實上身體的健康更重要，而且能夠保持得更長，人生的發展是馬拉松，它不是一個短暫的時分。"],["張委員雅琳：完全同意。我想部長跟葉次長應該都非常瞭解，世界經濟論壇一直在講未來20年、未來30年會消失的工作，但是有哪些工作是無法取代的，其實跟遊戲非常有關係，所訓練出來的能力跟創意這件事情是非常有關係的，所以我想要請部長給我一些具體的回應，如果現在沒有辦法也沒有關係，至少我們認同這個方向，但我們可不可以先檢討SH150落實在學校裡的狀況？因為在結論性意見也有說我們要去抽查。再來，課後遊戲班如果要成立的話，需要給予一些原則性嗎？或是一些指引等等的，這部分是不是可以來做一些規劃？第三個，現在家庭教育中心的120場次，規劃的進度跟執行的成效又是什麼？這個部分會後給我資料就好了，大概什麼時候？是現在就有資料，還是會後大概多久會有這個家庭教育的資料？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上我們現在課後的照顧安親，也不見得只是學科，它還有運動，有藝術表演各方面，相對是活潑的。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，那個是社團，但是課後班的部分，因為我自己之前也在小學擔任會長，我跟其他學校有討論，我發現大部分的人都差不多，都是學校會讓小孩留在班上寫功課或做一些小肌肉的運動，因為老師覺得放出去玩耍他會比較難控管，所以這是現實上面的一個問題，我覺得部長回去可以跟署長再做一些討論，看看實際面上我們可以怎麼樣來處理。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：因為時間有限，我想我們會後再約個時間來詳細討論好了，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：下一個問題，因為孩子在戶外空間的遊戲時間不足，其實你待在室內最常使用的東西就是手機，網路成癮這個問題應該大家都非常清楚，而且學生成癮的程度是比一般上班族還要來得高，而且是逐年加深。有非常多的報告都在說網路成癮帶來的一些身心疾患，例如美國兒科醫學會就有講，它會影響到學生的睡眠品質，如果減少運動會造成肥胖，也有可能造成語言發展遲緩、注意力缺失症的問題。","我在之前的院會也有講到，我們應該要積極地去做一些相關的建設，像奧運，以前傳統的奧運跟現在的奧運，它的比賽項目有很大的差異，像霹靂舞都進來啦！還有衝浪，2028年洛杉磯奧運還有腰旗美式足球，其實是日新月異，活動也越來越有趣。我是希望我們可以做這件事情，但是在4月16日給我的回文是說，根據112年運動現況調查，青少年13歲到17歲運動人口比率達到93.8%，對於住家附近運動場所之充足度比率達到69.3%，大部分的人好像也都有一些運動的項目，這樣看起來，好像我們並不需要做這件事情耶！但真的是這樣子嗎？","同樣是在今年的報導，「臺灣兒少不愛動」，如果我們前面講都有在動，那這個報導不就打臉我們剛剛講的嗎？我們就是不愛動啊！從2018年到現在，我們的身體活動量都是F等級，根據世界衛生組織的建議量，我們根本只有22%的國中生達標，高中生甚至只有13.6%，我覺得我們缺乏運動場域的規劃，而且這些特殊性、有趣性是相對不夠的。我想請教部長，或是署長來回答也可以，現在是不是應該真的要認真地回去研擬相關的可行性方案？因為在這件事情上面就是不及格啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒跟指導，我非常同意我們怎麼樣透過許多年輕人更喜歡的這些，譬如說極限運動、衝浪……"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯。"],["鄭部長英耀：臺灣是一個海洋國家，譬如說我們有更多的水域活動的推展，這個我們來努力，不會讓年輕人或學生覺得只是打球或是停留在陸地上的運動。我們會努力來跟地方政府協調，許多的公共空間能夠release，能夠釋放出來，然後大家來合作，看怎麼樣去提供青少年或是小學生一些更有趣的運動空間。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。因為我前面講的就是時間嘛！時間不夠，所以我們必須要清出一些時間來，包括跟家長去溝通，有一些時間讓小孩去運動，但是時間有了，場地就要準備好，所以這部分再麻煩部長跟署長，因為署長也知道我一直非常關心這個題目。","再來是自殺率的問題，回到青少年自殺率，根據臺大公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書森教授所發表的一篇研究報告，它說校園學生自我傷害常見的相關因素，精神疾病是排名第一，第二個是家庭關係問題，不管是在自殺或自傷都超過了六成，所以這個數字其實是非常需要被關注的。","根據教育部的研究，我們自己的統計數字啦！學生自殺跟自傷的整體趨勢是上升的，可以看到這條線是持續上升的，尤其我們來看喔！10歲到19歲蓄意自殺的死亡率也是上升的，過去我們可能想的是大學生，但是我們忽略了國高中生這一條線也是在增加的，針對這一點，我覺得現在孩子已經生得很少，每一個孩子我們真的都要好好傾全力來照顧。","我知道衛福部針對15歲到30歲有心理諮商需求的年輕朋友，他們會提供年輕族群心理健康支持方案，讓每個人有3次免費的心理諮商，我想從這個數字我們可以看到，不只是15歲以上，連15歲以下的青少年都是需要的，所以是否教育部可以跟衛福部一起來研擬，讓15歲以下的青少年也能夠得到免費心理諮商的幫助？請部長回答。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會跟衛福部來合作，看怎麼樣適時地對這些小學生提供一定程度的心理支持力量。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分的研擬大概需要多久的時間可以來做進一步的討論？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們內部儘快來做，因為這是有價值的一件事情。"],["張委員雅琳：儘快，我們可以抓1個月嗎？大概什麼時間？您說個時間好了。"],["吳司長林輝：這個部分可能會涉及到整體的規劃，還有財源籌措，是不是可以給我們3個月的時間？"],["張委員雅琳：3個月嗎？好，那就3個月的時間，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。本席在這邊宣布，在羅廷瑋委員質詢完畢之後，我們就來處理臨時提案。","接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.96221875,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.054718750000003,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.80034375,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.69471875,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.89409375000001,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.13221875,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.22534375000001,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.46034375,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.35409375,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.07534375,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.85534375,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.97284375,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.66034375,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.38159375,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.06596875000002,"end":204.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.51784375000003,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.02346875,"end":261.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.26409375000003,"end":263.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.90534375000004,"end":264.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.39471875000004,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.51909375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.97471875,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.37721875,"end":322.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.41096875,"end":323.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.08159375,"end":377.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.21221875000003,"end":392.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.96971875,"end":393.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.99471875,"end":456.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.19721875000005,"end":394.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.52221875000004,"end":421.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.03971875,"end":493.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.99596875000003,"end":496.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.05034375,"end":518.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.3759687500001,"end":519.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.8315937500001,"end":524.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.50596875,"end":530.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.67784375,"end":558.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.43721875,"end":574.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.4853437500001,"end":620.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.5678437500001,"end":587.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.70284375,"end":587.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.7197187500001,"end":587.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.93909375,"end":587.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.30534375,"end":639.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.69034375,"end":659.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.69159375,"end":672.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.69784375,"end":687.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.5647187500001,"end":740.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.22721875,"end":743.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.3872187500001,"end":757.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.0053437500001,"end":763.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.97909375,"end":769.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.3115937500002,"end":773.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.96034375,"end":782.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.33534375,"end":779.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":780.4153437500001,"end":780.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":782.32221875,"end":786.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":786.37221875,"end":787.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.8403437500001,"end":788.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.88221875,"end":791.2153437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.224,"end":10.086,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長好 我們請鄭部長委員好"},{"start":18.857,"end":41.519,"text":"部長好,首先想要跟,我想我們這個上禮拜有這個青鳥行動,那這個街道上面各式各樣年輕人的創意,學生們自主地在全台灣發起了這樣子的一個表達自己意見的這個聲量,創意無限,我想這應該都代表說我們過去這幾年在做兒童表益權這件事情其實是有得到一個不錯的一個成果,對不對?"},{"start":43.28,"end":62.224,"text":"我想說我就會針對這個兒童表意權這件事情持續的來做一些討論就是說因為其實在聯合國有規定說兒童是有權利去參與公共事務那在2022年的兒童權利公約國際審查結論性意見其實也有提到說我們中央應該也要提供這樣子的機會給年紀較小的兒童參與"},{"start":65.925,"end":79.404,"text":"那這個兒童權利公約裡面保障的兒童其實是未滿18歲以下的兒童跟少年因為我們希望可以更早的讓他們參與這樣子他們長大的時候才會有更好的一個政策討論的一個表現"},{"start":81.398,"end":102.419,"text":"但是我看了一下其實當時也有建議說教育部應該要有一個人權工作小組應該來增加兒少代表但我看了一下這個名單是18歲以上都沒有12歲以下所以我想要了解就是在這一端我們從2022年國際審查到現在也將近快要一年半的時間那這個進度現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":106.243,"end":124.262,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經完成了這個設置要點的修改將來會加入兒少代表不過就在新聘委員的部分目前還在作業中那大概是什麼時候會這個作業會什麼時候完成呢應該在完成改組之後就會有兒少代表"},{"start":134.153,"end":147.36,"text":"我希望就是說我們可以在8月份之後我就會看到18歲以下的兒童一起來參與這些政策的討論那在下一題就是還是回到我自己過去在民間所關心的就是兒童遊戲權這件事情"},{"start":148.38,"end":171.382,"text":"這是我們2023年特工盟這個民間組織他其實採訪了北高兩地的兒童那他們就小孩自己說的話就是說他下課跟放學後或是假日都沒有時間遊戲因為他下課的時候呢可能要補血或發血或者是老師會要求他完成體能作業這個體能作業其實跟SH150非常有關係因為SH150希望孩子培養一個運動的習慣嘛"},{"start":173.004,"end":180.042,"text":"但是學校通常就叫他們跑操場跟跳繩所以他的大下課時間就要去完成這一項作業他就沒有時間去玩耍"},{"start":182.15,"end":204.561,"text":"他自己說他的上學時間比大人的上班時間還要長他放學之後可能要去安親班或者是留在學校的課後班所以他其實不太有時間遊戲在不太有時間遊戲其實是非常影響到孩子的身心健康發展其實在2013年吳佩昌醫師他也做了一個研究"},{"start":205.561,"end":226.756,"text":"他說每天增加80分鐘的互換活動其實是可以將近視力減半這是有顯著的差異他也在世界衛生組織都去發表這些研究的報告所以我就想要了解說我們到底在這件事情上面我們可不可以第一個先檢討SH150它的執行方式到學校落實的面向是不是可以有一些調整第二個就是說"},{"start":227.296,"end":227.316,"text":"第3個"},{"start":237.079,"end":261.549,"text":"其實在這個國家結論性意見裏面也有講到我們其實應該要去強化家庭教育中心的一個功能性讓家長了解休息遊戲和休閒對孩子的身心發展的重要性每年要辦理120場次所以針對這三點不曉得說部長可不可以給我一些回覆"},{"start":265.412,"end":284.987,"text":"我非常同意委員所提的尤其事實上對學生創意的想像跟創意的培養是一個非常重要的那我也不容否認我們過去大概月經一晴芳一夕所以很擔心尤其少子化家長們都很擔心他的小孩輸在起跑點上"},{"start":285.307,"end":285.327,"text":"對沒錯"},{"start":313.633,"end":322.82,"text":"我想部長跟葉次長應該都非常了解就是世界經濟論壇他一直在講未來20年未來30年會消失的工作但是有哪些工作是無法取代的"},{"start":335.009,"end":335.189,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":354.496,"end":377.651,"text":"接下來就是說課後遊戲班如果要成立的話他是需要說給你一些原則性嗎或是一些指引等等的這部分是不是可以來做一些規劃第三個現在我們在120場次的一個家庭教育中心規劃的進度跟執行的成效又是什麼那這個部分可以會後給我資料就好了那大概什麼時候這是現在就有資料嗎還是會後要待多久會有這個家庭教育的資料"},{"start":379.261,"end":393.039,"text":"委員這個報告我們事實上現在課後的一個照顧安親事實上也不見只是學科他事實上有運動有藝術表演各方面的他相對是活潑的我想部長那個是社團"},{"start":394.241,"end":414.753,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":415.113,"end":422.715,"text":"部長可以再回去跟可能是署長這邊再做一些討論我們看看實際面上我們可以怎麼樣來處理這個部分那因為時間有限我想我們會後再約個時間來詳細討論好了好謝謝那下一個問題就是說還是回到這個問題就是說因為其實孩子在戶外的空間遊戲時間不足那其實你都在室內你最常會使用的東西就是手機網路成癮這個問題應該大家都非常的清楚了而且學生成癮的這個程度"},{"start":443.781,"end":443.941,"text":"但是我在這個﹖"},{"start":467.797,"end":493.393,"text":"之前的院會其實也有講到說我們其實應該要來積極的去做一些相關的建設那像這個奧運他就有講我們現在以前我們可能傳統的奧運跟我們現在奧運的比賽項目其實都越來越有很大的差異像是PD5都進來了衝浪或是2028年洛杉磯奧運還有邀請美式足球其實是越來日新月異活動也越來越有趣那所以"},{"start":494.133,"end":517.129,"text":"我是希望我們可以做這件事情啊但是齁在2014月16號的時候啊那時候給我的回文是這樣說就是說根據112年運動現況調查青少年13到17歲運動人口比例達到93.8%對於住家附近運動場所之充足度比率達到69.3%好那大部分的人好像都也有一些這些運動的項目喔"},{"start":519.964,"end":529.912,"text":"那這樣看起來就是說好像我們並不需要做這件事情欸但真的是這樣子嗎今年一樣在同樣在今年喔台灣兒校不愛動"},{"start":531.724,"end":557.463,"text":"如果我們前面講都有在動那這一個不就剛剛好打理我們剛剛講的嗎我們就是不愛動啊我們還從2018年到現在我們身體活動量都是F等級根據世界衛生組織的建議量我們根本只有22%的國中生達標高中生甚至只有13.6%我覺得我們缺乏運動的這些場域的規劃而且還有這些特殊性有趣性其實是相對不夠的"},{"start":559.468,"end":573.947,"text":"所以我想請教部長或署長來回答都可以就是說我們現在是不是應該要真的要認真的回去研擬相關的可行性方案因為這件事情上面就是不及格啦"},{"start":576.207,"end":603.728,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒跟指導我想我非常同意我們怎麼樣透過這一個喜多年輕人更喜歡的這些比如說極限運動對沒錯比如說台灣是一個海洋國家我們有更多的水域活動的這樣的一個運動的推展我想這都是我們來努力而不會讓年輕人或者學生他覺得有一些只是打球或者停留在陸地上的"},{"start":604.188,"end":619.226,"text":"這些東西我們會來努力來跟地方政府看許多的公共空間他能夠release能夠釋放出來然後大家來合作看怎麼樣提供青少年或者我們小學生有更有趣的一些運動空間"},{"start":621.228,"end":638.047,"text":"謝謝部長,因為其實我前面講的就是時間嘛,時間不夠,所以我們必須要清除一些時間出來,包括跟家長去溝通,讓他們有些時間讓小孩去運動,但是時間有了場地就要準備好,所以這部分就是在麻煩這個部長跟署長,因為署長你知道我都一直非常關心這個題目,那再來就是說在這個"},{"start":640.748,"end":658.716,"text":"自殺率的問題回到青少年自殺率根據這個臺大公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授所發表的一篇研究報告他說校園學生自我傷害的一個常見因素常見的相關因素"},{"start":659.776,"end":664.4,"text":"教育部的研究我們自己的統計數字就是說我們的學生自殺跟自傷的整體趨勢是上升的可以看到這條線是持續上升的"},{"start":688.669,"end":709.611,"text":"尤其我們來看10歲到19歲蓄意自殺的死亡率也是上升的過去我們可能想的是大學生但是我們忽略了其實國高中生的這一條線也都是在增加的那這一點我覺得現在孩子已經生得很少了每一個孩子我們真的都要好好請全力來照顧"},{"start":710.592,"end":710.612,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":725.589,"end":726.09,"text":"請部長回答"},{"start":744.397,"end":773.055,"text":"我想我們會來跟衛福部來合作看怎麼樣來也在適時的對我們這些小學生也可以提供一定的程度的心理的一個支持的力量那不曉得這個份的研擬大概是需要多久的時間我們可以再做進一步的討論呢我想我們內部這個盡快來因為這是有價值的一件事情那盡快我們是可以抓一個月嗎還是大概什麼時間您說個時間好了"},{"start":776.368,"end":777.069,"text":"本席正式宣布"}]}},{"id":"153032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b35401f7e1940c55a45186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e02e566cb8345b5535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:50:34 - 11:57:51","影片長度":"00:07:17","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":437,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:57:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:50:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.109718750000003,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.400343750000001,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.762843750000002,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.69034375,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.27409375,"end":40.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.34096875,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.602218750000006,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.05346875,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.845968750000004,"end":50.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.80784375,"end":71.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.12159375,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.27346875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.42534375000001,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.36159375,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.72284375000001,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.70034375,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.38659375,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.98971875000001,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.34346875,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.74409375,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.58346875000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.16534375,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.78534375000001,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.40846875000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.11596875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.59659375,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.52409375000002,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.22721875000002,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.52971875,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.41534375,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.36034375,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.98659375,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.49534375000002,"end":189.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.79471875000002,"end":193.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.06409375,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.12721875000003,"end":208.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.65721875000003,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.74096875,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.11221875,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.21346875,"end":216.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.08159375000002,"end":216.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.43596875,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.43034375000002,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.13034375,"end":240.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.64721875,"end":242.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.19971875000002,"end":244.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.61721875,"end":270.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.68909375000004,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.17846875000004,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.30471875,"end":275.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.48159375,"end":278.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.43034375,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.33159375,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.53409375,"end":293.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.60534375000003,"end":299.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.95034375,"end":300.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.52409375,"end":305.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.00846875,"end":344.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.08284375,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.02346875,"end":345.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.05284375,"end":351.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.75659375000004,"end":356.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.38034375,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.49721875,"end":370.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.28534375000004,"end":370.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.74096875000004,"end":386.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.87346875000003,"end":387.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.54846875000004,"end":419.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.60284375000003,"end":391.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.36534375,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.05721875,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.81346875,"end":422.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.98221875,"end":421.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.86784375,"end":422.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.90159375,"end":422.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.95221875000004,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.96909375,"end":423.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.03659375,"end":435.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.19096875,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.11471875,"end":437.58284375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.266,"end":30.786,"text":"請何部長請部長你好下一張部長其實我們今天要來討論的這個議題我想當然跟所謂我們的移工跟看護工的政策有關但是其實大家都清楚知道其實這個議題的本質還是是一個照護政策的問題是"},{"start":32.327,"end":44.264,"text":"所以照理來說我認為今天在這邊要接受詢答的我認為應該是現在新任的衛福部的邱部長或者是他們至少應該要有次長來到現場因為這個命題的本質是照護問題"},{"start":51.285,"end":70.179,"text":"所以第一個我在看到這個題目的時候或者是我們剛剛看到去年選舉的時候大家有些討論的時候坦白說我自己是蠻擔憂的就是我們一方面看到了很多需要照顧的僱主在被照顧上面的需求確實也還有很多的需求沒有被滿足"},{"start":71.465,"end":100.794,"text":"可是大家現在想要直接的說那我們是不是就來開救福法那來擴大增加聘僱外籍看護工的這部分我自己很擔心會有建樹不建林甚至會產生很多對我們原本長照政策的副作用的部分但我要先說我完全可以理解為什麼現在會有一些人覺得我產生照顧上面的需求沒被滿足我就想要開救福法"},{"start":102.165,"end":111.779,"text":"委員很簡單我覺得過去八年我們確實有犯了一個問題的錯誤我們把移工政策跟長照政策切得太開了"},{"start":113.797,"end":132.875,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":133.683,"end":158.536,"text":"稍後政策或長照政策部分我自己覺得我們過去也有一些責任坦白說這部分我沒有辦法都推卸但是當這個關口我們還是必須審慎的來檢視現在當下的政策的時候不然我先問其實按照如果現在幾個一些委員的版本然後直接來開舊法第46條的話有沒有評估會對長照政策產生什麼影響"},{"start":160.87,"end":184.041,"text":"是,所以這個衛福部今天的報告也有表示因為裡面開80歲這條線上面這一個有涵雅健康雅健康的這一種高達他的潛在的可能移工需求數會53萬左右所以這是一個很龐大的數字那第一個你可能會對你如果引進這些移工那你當然你一定會對長照2.0或3.0會產生排擠"},{"start":189.004,"end":215.032,"text":"我自己認為我其實並不排斥任何政策的調整可是重點是這個政策調整的思維應該經過什麼樣的路徑其實以去年那時候十月的時候當然陳院長時代我們開了三項的這個多元的免金八十兩百評估的多元管道的部分這三項當時確實就我理解我自己辦公室有參與他其實有經過包括醫療團體對"},{"start":216.613,"end":240.555,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":241.687,"end":269.295,"text":"再下一張。再下一張。好。我認為其實其中報告裡面有一個團體就是我們這個家庭照護者關懷總會一般稱為家總。他其實有一個建議我覺得非常重要。這建議是我們接下來在照護政策上各種的調整應該以調查為基礎來制定計劃與預算。也就是要調查為基礎而不是大家憑空去想。那我認為現在不管是尤其是當然衛福部我今天看到好像只有駐司長來嘛。"},{"start":270.657,"end":278.592,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":279.471,"end":305.052,"text":"我們其實有很大一群人他可能透過外籍移工來滿足他的照顧需求可是這些透過外籍移工滿足照顧需求的人他的主管機關變成是勞動部可是勞動部對於這些被照顧的人到底他的樣態是什麼他的需求是什麼我們其實是並不了解的這是一個很大的問題他的主管機關變你可是你對他的這些人其實並不了解"},{"start":306.072,"end":320.705,"text":"那有這麼一大塊他的需求我們並不真實掌握的狀況下面我們接下來要做各種的政策變動的時候其實都會有點像是蝦子在摸象所以我認為如果參考今天很多專業NGO的討論來說的話我認為勞動部應該要跟衛福部好好討論針對現在他可能是靠"},{"start":325.769,"end":351.061,"text":"外籍看護工來滿足照護需求的這些人你怎麼對他的需求有一個清楚完整的甚至需要普查或者是類似的調查我覺得掌握這些事情以後我們才有辦法往下一個階段到底這裡面該怎麼連動討論來去處理主席再給我一分鐘的時間我下面一個問題是那個現在針對之前勞動部有規劃所謂外展看護服務室事辦計畫目前進度到哪裡"},{"start":351.941,"end":380.505,"text":"我們現在正在規劃中了。是下半年就會實施。不然我覺得這個計畫有一個重要的地方。其實我也接到很多外籍看護工的僱主來陳情。我覺得他們講一個地方是有道理的。其實我們現在外籍看護有很多的責任。他的責任我們會用救福法綁在僱主身上。可是在產業移工跟需要照顧的僱主之間其實有差別。產業移工是拿這些外籍勞動力去賺錢的。他綁更多的責任我覺得我們是同意的。"},{"start":380.725,"end":398.302,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":398.302,"end":413.336,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":413.416,"end":421.379,"text":"在承擔僱主的責任。我覺得這對僱主的負擔來說是有幫助的。我覺得我們應該往這個方向走。這個部長同意嗎?"},{"start":421.379,"end":434.905,"text":"是是是當然。我們正在這麼做。 那我覺得這個責任的需求我希望勞法署或者是勞動部應該要來討論怎麼讓這個有盈利目的的跟沒有盈利目的的僱主之間他的責任有所區別。我覺得這還滿足一般人的需要好不好。 謝謝洪委員謝謝接下來我們請黃秀"}]}},{"id":"153031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b33c4466b4e8913915e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9ea0f75f480eb1dfc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:39:17 - 11:52:58","影片長度":"00:13:41","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":821,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:52:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:39:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時39分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：鄭部長好。首先恭喜你擔任臺灣最高的教育首長，希望在你的任期能夠讓臺灣的教育更進步、更上一層樓。首先要跟您討論的議題是本席長期關心的，從當議員的時候就不斷倡議到當立委，不管是委員會的質詢或在總質詢，我都一直在倡議的就是要設立一個運動的專責部會，賴清德在競選期間有說他的政見是要成立體育暨運動發展部，在就職演說的時候，他也再次的宣示，所以本席還是要不厭其煩的再論述一次，為什麼我們要有一個專責的部會來處理體育的項目？就是因為運動的業務包含太多了，不管是教育或培養優秀運動人員，包括運動產業的建設跟發展也是很重要，同時也相當龐雜，它包含運動博弈、運動經營管理顧問等十三大面向，電競也是其中的一環，所以如果有一個專責的部會專門來處理，會更有力量來提升全民的運動風氣，培養每一個年齡層都可以有運動的習慣。如果人人把運動當日常，就可以促成企業大量投資運動，不管是投資運動隊伍也好，甚至是投資單項協會或者運動事業，讓我們國家的運動發展跟世界接軌。在這個會期初，負責運動業務的鄭署長就坦言，他在委員會曾經跟我答詢說，如果要設立專責部會的話，他覺得可以增能體育署的能量，也可以真正的擴大運動產業，所以他是完全認同本席的看法。潘前部長也有說，教育部辦理體育的相關事務，確實有所限制，因為體育事務也相當特別，我們要跟國外窗口接口的時候，如果光是教育部的話，其實會有一些難處。賴總統既然已經宣示，我想設立體育暨運動發展部就變得是勢在必行。","現在要請教部長的是，我們瞭解現在中央行政二級機關已經到頂，如果要成立體育部不曉得您現在有什麼樣的作法？是要修改行政院組織的設置條例呢？或者是要另外跟其他部門合成為部呢？這個部分不曉得部長你怎麼想？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，目前體育署有規劃好幾個版本，當然也把這樣的構想送到行政院去，最後到底要從組織法來修改，還是有其他部會之間的一些合作，這方面我們是有一些規劃的。"],["林委員宜瑾：有一些規劃，然後到時候再送院去裁決？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以我剛剛講的兩種方式都有可能？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：單獨成部或者跟別的部門一起合為部……"],["鄭部長英耀：當然賴總統的期待是這個體育……"],["林委員宜瑾：單獨成部。"],["鄭部長英耀：單獨成部嘛！就整個政策而言，我們是有一些規劃的版本讓行政院來參酌。"],["林委員宜瑾：剛剛我看你回答吳沛憶委員是說7月要在北中南辦座談會。"],["鄭部長英耀：目前我們是有這樣的規劃。"],["林委員宜瑾：是跟體育界辦座談會？"],["鄭部長英耀：除了體育界，還有社會大眾，因為我們希望就誠如委員所說的，全民運動是讓全民都健康，甚至帶來運動產業的蓬勃發展。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那這個規劃大約何時會報院？就是成立部的規劃。"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，目前規劃期程大概是在年底前會完成所有的……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，期待年底前有好的消息。","接下來本席想要跟你討論私校小聯考的議題，我主要是想要跟部長確認一下基本的價值方向，部分私立學校透過入學考試或是科學營隊、數理語文菁英競賽等等，透過各種名目來招生、來篩選學生，可以說把升學壓力下降到小學生。2021年本席就曾提出要修訂私校法的提案，想要改善這個亂象，當時潘部長的態度是相當的肯定、相當的支持，因為他認為國民教育是基礎教育，如果私校小聯考的方式還存在，那就表示跟12年國教的五大施政理念是有所扞格。到了2023年修改國民教育法的時候，本席再次提出這樣的提議，那時候通過國教法有一個附帶決議，就是教育部要研議修正私校法和子法，規範私校不得以測驗、口試、審查成績或任何類似考試的方式來招生，可是我們可以看到，時至今日還是很多私校持續用考試的方式來招生，甚至這一屆的小朋友是龍年，所以考私校比考頂大更難。","我想要請教部長，你自己有當過小學老師，這種小聯考考取私中是一種健康的國民教育升學方式嗎？你是否也支持禁止私校小聯考？之前的附帶決議，教育部說要規範私校不得以測驗、口試、審查成績等類似方式來招生，可是我之前詢問教育部目前的作法，得到的答案是提醒地方政府應落實督導私校招生，用提醒的方式，所以看起來你們目前是很消極地在做這件事情，我要詢問就是說，我之前提出要修改私校法第三十九條跟第五十七條，就是希望私校招生人數如果超過既定員額，就是要用電腦抽籤來處理，當然我知道這個部分當初引起很多民代受到很多私校董事長的壓力，並且我那時候還要求從審查制改成核定制，不曉得部長你現在的態度怎麼樣？是支持這樣的方式嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我想委員剛才所提的是非常好的一個對私校……我們感謝私校結合民間力量來共同進行人才培育，可是國民教育、特別是小學，它絕對不應該用聯考、用什麼來成為一個入學的選擇標準，我想這基本上是違反我們對國民教育在人才培育的方向，未來我想我們來跟地方政府，因為國民教育主要還是在地方政府實質的一些……"],["林委員宜瑾：因為我們現在私校法裡面對於私校招生如果超過員額，怎麼樣的入學方式我們沒有任何的規定，所以我想說是不是教育部也可以開始啟動來修私校法？"],["鄭部長英耀：我在想，甚至如果違反這些用測驗各方面的，必要的時候，等於說從減少招生，甚至私校獎補助許多的東西，我們都可以拿掉，我相信公權力相對地在教育的本質裡邊，我們還是要堅持。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝部長的回答。最後本席想要跟您討論學校交通車的議題，因為今年3月底到4月底，新竹跟臺北分別都有發生各一起校車交通的事故，造成數十名的學生跟車輛的駕駛受傷，上週臺北同一所學校又在同一個地點發生了車禍，所幸這三起交通事故並沒有造成很嚴重的傷亡。可是本席想要請問教育部究竟有沒有掌握全臺所有的公私立學校，包括補習班的學生交通車，到底有沒有確實盡到所謂的管理責任？因為根據報導，臺北的那一場，就是連續發生兩場同一個地點的事故的這所學校，它甚至沒有依照學生交通車管理辦法，把租賃的契約副本交給臺北市教育局備查，沒有！各縣市政府照理應該要定期稽查交通車，以臺中市為例，他們今年至少稽查了94次，可是不合格率有32%，其中違規的樣態以交通車沒有去備查（就是備查租賃契約）還有車齡超過10年為最多，所以這樣的疏漏其實對於我們孩子搭乘車輛的安全確實是一個很大的疑慮，所以我想要請教，你們是不是要來做一些掌握？你們有沒有統計全臺灣的各公私立學校包括補習班，到底交通車抽查的不合格率為多少？你們對於各縣市督導的狀況又是如何？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，學童的安全包括特別關係到生命的安全，這絕對不容挑戰，所以我相信我們除了繼續函請地方政府跟學校按照學生交通管理的辦法嚴格來執行，必要的時候，就我的一個想像，假設地方政府在這個部分沒有真正落實許多租賃辦法的標準，我們不排斥對地方的獎補助祭出一些罰則。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為我覺得現在是這樣，學校端也很有問題，當然交通車業者也有問題，可是教育部直接對學校端，所以我們要督促學校端去要求交通車業者，所以我想這部分要請教育部多出力一點，就誠如您剛所說的，他們如果確實沒有改善，或者說地方的教育局對這些學校端沒有好好督導，您可能會祭出一些公權力，做出一些獎補助減少或者……我覺得這是好事，可是還是請你們要提出具體的辦法好不好？才會讓這種事情越少、減少。最後20秒，您剛對媒體有提到三大優先推動的政策，除了這三大以外，像擴大幼兒教保公共化或者健全特殊教育資源等等，這兩個問題不曉得您怎麼看？"],["鄭部長英耀：幼教公共化，我們事實上看到目前在衛福部是0到2歲，然後學校在3歲到6歲，可是我們也看到，其實第一線上的這些中小學，他們有非常多非常具有創新性的，包括結合年輕人的地方創生，所以我們也期待如果可以從社區、學校的社區裡邊，中小企業也好或者上市櫃公司，假設他們願意從照顧員工的嬰幼兒的這個角度，需要學校提供空間，我們也會樂觀促成這樣的合作模式，由民間企業來支持、協助員工對幼兒的照護，我們政府也會從體制裡面看怎麼樣來協助跟補助。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為時間的關係，那我也期待在健全特殊教育資源的部分，請部長多加油、多努力，謝謝，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.87409375,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.47159375,"end":77.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.26346875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.41534375,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.10409375,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.92346875,"end":232.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.43784375,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.55159375000002,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":240.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.09534375,"end":236.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.45346875,"end":246.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.11909375000002,"end":247.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.19909375,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.98784375000002,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.48471875,"end":261.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.09971875,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.83346875,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.11159375,"end":280.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.59159375,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.10534375000003,"end":283.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.48034375000003,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.69909375000003,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.15471875000003,"end":290.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.06159375000004,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":394.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.00721875000005,"end":435.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.63784375,"end":465.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.59096875000006,"end":473.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.31971875000005,"end":500.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.06659375000004,"end":507.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.64784375000005,"end":522.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.3290937500001,"end":527.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.48846875,"end":545.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9553437500001,"end":538.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.2790937500001,"end":585.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.0659687500001,"end":655.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.73846875,"end":695.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.6997187500001,"end":689.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.26409375,"end":695.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.07409375,"end":756.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.7522187500001,"end":771.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.2309687500001,"end":801.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.8803437500001,"end":810.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.7565937500001,"end":821.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":818.9578437500002,"end":819.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.29534375,"end":819.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.6328437500001,"end":820.3584687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.716,"end":7.083,"text":"謝謝主席 有請鄭部長好部長"},{"start":13.823,"end":14.123,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀"},{"start":36.479,"end":51.749,"text":"不管是委員會的質詢或在總質詢我都一直在唱也就是要設立一個運動的專責部會那麼賴清德在競選的期間就有說他的政見是要成立體育暨運動發展部"},{"start":53.79,"end":75.339,"text":"在就職演說的時候他也再次的宣誓所以我本席還是要不厭其妨的再論述一次就為什麼我們要一個專責的部會來處理體育的項目就是因為運動的業務它包含的太多了不管是教育或培養優秀的運動人員以外運動產業的建設跟發展"},{"start":78.34,"end":78.38,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":94.48,"end":116.34,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":116.42,"end":116.74,"text":"委員會曾經跟我答詢說他"},{"start":134.013,"end":134.213,"text":"﹚教育部部長"},{"start":152.637,"end":175.998,"text":"﹗"},{"start":176.258,"end":204.541,"text":"現在就是說要請教部長的是因為我們了解現在我們的中央行政二級機關已經到頂那要成立這個體育部不曉得您現在有什麼樣的做法是要來修改所謂的這個行政院的這個組織設置條例呢或者是說要另外跟其他的部門合成為部呢這個部分不曉得部長你怎麼想"},{"start":207.128,"end":233.585,"text":"我想跟委員報告我目前在體育署有規劃有多好幾個版本當然也把這樣的一個構想讓行政院到最後去到底要從組織法來修改還是有其他的一些部會之間的一些這個合作我想這我們是有一些規劃的有些規劃然後到時候再送院去裁決所以我剛講兩種"},{"start":235.026,"end":235.566,"text":"7月要在北中南辦座談會"},{"start":262.262,"end":277.299,"text":"是我們目前是有這樣的一個規劃是跟體育界辦座談會除了體育界還有來自於社會大眾因為我們希望就陳委員所說的全民運動是讓全民都健康那甚至所帶來的這個運動產業的一個蓬勃發展"},{"start":280.543,"end":284.705,"text":"接下來本期想要跟您討論就是私校小聯考的議題我主要想要跟部長確認一下基本的價值方向"},{"start":304.735,"end":329.07,"text":"﹗"},{"start":329.13,"end":353.245,"text":"的提案想要改善這個亂象那當時潘部長的態度是相當的肯定相當的支持因為他認為國民教育是基礎教育如果私校小聯考的方式還存在那就表示說跟12年國教五大施政理念是有所漢格那到了2023年修改國民教育法的時候我們"},{"start":354.065,"end":380.321,"text":"本席再次提出這樣的一個提議那時候有通過國教法有一個附帶決議就是教育部要嚴密修正私校法和執法規範私校不得以測驗、口試、審查成績或任何類似考試的方式來招生可是我們可以看到時至今日還是很多私校持續用考試的方式來招生那甚至"},{"start":381.562,"end":381.722,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":395.998,"end":397.119,"text":"教育部的目前的做法：提醒"},{"start":422.395,"end":438.829,"text":"地方政府因落實督導私校招生用提醒的方式所以看起來你們目前是很消極的在做這件事情那我要詢問就是說我之前提出要修改私校法第39條"},{"start":440.53,"end":445.552,"text":"我並且那時候還要求要從審查制改成核定制那不曉得部長您現在的態度怎麼樣是支持這樣的方式嗎?"},{"start":467.44,"end":472.909,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,我想委員剛才所提的是非常好的一個"},{"start":474.626,"end":500.416,"text":"對施校我們感謝施校這個結合民間力量來共同來這個進行這個人才培育可是國民教育特別是小學他絕對不應該用年考用什麼來成為一個入學的一個選擇標準我想這個基本上是違反我們對國民教育的一個在人才培育裡面的方向我們一定要"},{"start":501.176,"end":521.813,"text":"在未來我想我們跟地方政府因為國民教育主要還是在地方政府在實施的一些因為我們現在私校法裡面對於私校招生如果超過原額那怎麼樣這個入學方式我們沒有任何的規定所以我想說是不是私校法教育部也可以開始啟動來修私校法"},{"start":522.392,"end":544.682,"text":"是我在想甚至如果違反這些用測驗各方面的必要的時候等於說從這個減少招生甚至這個失效獎補助許多的東西我們都可以拿掉我相信公權力在相對的在這個教育的一個本質裡面我們還是要堅持"},{"start":545.362,"end":568.692,"text":"好 謝謝部長的回答最後本期想要跟您討論學校交通車的議題因為今年3月底到4月底新竹跟台北分別都有發生各一起校車交通的事故那造成數十名的學生跟車輛的駕駛受傷那上週台北同一所學校又在同一個地點"},{"start":569.192,"end":569.212,"text":"﹚邀請"},{"start":586.334,"end":587.475,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":605.171,"end":607.874,"text":"臺北市教育局備查沒有那各縣市政府照理應該要定期稽查交通車那以臺東市為例他們今年至少稽查了94次可是不合格率有32%"},{"start":622.012,"end":637.523,"text":"那其中違規的樣態以交通車沒有去被查就是被查這個租賃契約還有車齡超過10年的為最多所以這樣的疏漏其實對於我們孩子的這個搭乘車輛安全確實是一個很大的疑慮"},{"start":638.263,"end":643.869,"text":"所以我想要請教部說你們是不是要來做一些掌握你們有沒有統計說這樣全台灣的各公私立學校包括補習班到底交通車抽查的不合格率為多少那你們對於各縣市的督導的狀況又是如何部長"},{"start":657.209,"end":682.577,"text":"謝謝委員關心學童的一個安全包括在一個特別關係到生命的這一個安全這沒有絕對不容挑戰所以我相信我們除了繼續喊請地方政府跟學校來按照這個學生交通這個管理的辦法嚴格來執行必要的時候就我的一個想像"},{"start":683.197,"end":688.86,"text":"假設地方政府在這個部分沒有真正落實這個許多租賃上的一些辦法的標準的我們不排斥這個對地方的獎補助我們會祭出一些罰則因為我覺得現在是這樣學校端也很有問題"},{"start":700.626,"end":700.646,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":716.34,"end":734.462,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":734.722,"end":754.075,"text":"才會讓這種事情越少減少那最後就是20秒您剛有提到三大對媒體有三大優先推動的政策除了這三大以外像擴大幼兒教保公共化或者健全特殊教育資源等等這兩個問題不曉得您怎麼看"},{"start":757.739,"end":772.739,"text":"﹖"},{"start":772.799,"end":772.879,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":802.088,"end":802.408,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b33a84c44086a32ce1442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e36c59174a941d0e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:44:43 - 11:52:28","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":465,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:52:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:44:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時44分）謝謝主席，有請黃彥男部長備詢。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：黃部長好，好久不見！其實我們十多年前已經見過面了，當時我坐在您旁邊有很多的學習，很高興今天有機會在交通委員會透過質詢來跟您交流。部長在今天的業務報告和媒體專訪都有提到數位部接下來要推出三箭齊發的策略，內容中有許多方向與本席的想法相近，同時我也非常肯定您提到數位經濟，數位經濟是AI未來發展的康莊大道，同時也是元宇宙的基石，我相信這幾支箭都非常有希望，以下就針對部長的這三支箭跟您交流。","第一點，數位發展部過去在電子簽章法修正案的討論過程中非常支持，也說會拿來打擊詐騙，在各界的共識之下順利在4月底三讀通過，本席非常樂見部長的第一支箭是推動打詐工作，剛剛也提到三個月內要成立打詐通查網，你也提到希望仰賴民間業者的協助，除了剛剛提到的很多廠商之外，廣告平臺商也有能力偵測詐騙帳號，如果這些GAFA可以多做一點事情的話，可能會減少很多詐騙。請問部長，有跟哪些平臺聯繫呢？因為剛剛有零星提到，我這邊確認一下，有跟哪些平臺聯繫？聯繫的進度如何？廣告平臺商。"],["黃部長彥男：請署長說明。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，謝謝委員讓我們有說明的機會，其實我們次長上禮拜上任第一週的禮拜五就已經找Google、Meta、LINE來討論，針對打詐專法相關的一些規範在執行上怎麼處理，以及委員幫忙、大家一起支持的電子簽章法通過之後，如何在打詐專法草案的第三十條用數位簽章或者FIDO，或者是其他安全性的技術來驗證，所以這些細節部分一邊在擬草案，同時甚至還有一些子法要討論，所以林次長已經有主持會議，以上報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，時間有限，感謝你都有答到啦！剛剛這個週末的時候，Meta的平臺被洗版了，看到很多名人。接下來，其實很多免費的YouTube用戶也開始被詐騙集團的影片廣告給投遞，LINE更不用講，更是一個大宗！當然我相信這些公司都無意協助犯罪者，我想政府也必然有責任跟他們一起連結。","另外一個問題想請教一下，這個通查網在建置的時候，很可能也是希望大家來通報，對不對？讓你們可以查詢，有沒有要導入電子簽章或數位身分的驗證、行動自然人憑證、TWCA的身分驗證，讓檢舉人可以更快驗證檢舉人的身分來幫助你們通知這些平臺更快地下架這些廣告？因為這些平臺在意的是到底是不是真正的人在檢舉，有沒有思考過要導入這個？"],["黃部長彥男：如果我們要驗證通報人的身分，當然要用這些工具。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，希望考慮一下。部長同時也提到強化數位韌性是你的第二支箭，資安非常重要，你們有資安檢測協助的服務，但是目前只針對企業提供資安檢測的服務，2022年臺大的2個網站被駭，2023年臺大教務處的網站被駭，2024年7間高中相關的網站被駭，2萬筆資料流出，數發部的輔導有沒有要提供給民間團體、學校？這個能不能稍微回應一下？"],["黃部長彥男：我們請署長。當然我們資安署跟資安院有些服務團會幫忙做一些服務，過去有些績效，我是不是先請署長說明？"],["謝署長翠娟：謝謝委員。因為資安必須聯防，所以其實我們發現的所有案件或者是攻擊的樣態，我們會對民間分享，另外我們的法律……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我問的是資安院的資安檢測服務，目前只針對企業提供服務，而且還有30家優惠名額，那學校、民間團體、政府單位呢？我剛剛提到的全部都不是企業啊！"],["何院長全德：除了政府機關以外，我們對中小企業的部分在今年會擴大協助，提供這樣的服務……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起！我時間有限，我打斷你，因為我剛剛問的是政府，我不要問中小企業，我也沒有要問企業，麻煩回去稍微瞭解一下。"],["謝署長翠娟：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個資安檢測服務應該要幫助更多人。有關第三支箭，部長提到數位經濟，我想「數位經濟」這兩個字很微妙，又有數位又有經濟，過去八年我們作為公民來觀察以及本席上任以來100天的質詢經驗裡面，我已經發現一個產業只要超過一個以上的部會在負責，相安無事的時候，有錢大家分，但是出事的時候沒有人要扛，最後都在踢皮球，你踢給他、他踢給你。請問部長，數位經濟既然是數位又是經濟，所以打算怎麼和相關部會分工？"],["黃部長彥男：數位經濟我們剛剛最主要講的是軟體服務業、資訊服務業，這是我們現在主要的，還有相關的像電商、軟體出版業，所以有些產業是我們要輔導，因為這些產業會用到AI跟資安的技術，因此AI產業、資安產業也是我們要輔導的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，希望注意一下分工。南北AI生態園區有預算規模、時程了嗎？到底是著重軟體還是硬體？"],["黃部長彥男：我們跟國發會的劉主委還在討論中，不過現在是這樣子，基本上我們希望全島都是一個AI島，所謂生態園區應該是跨全島而且軟硬整合。"],["葛委員如鈞：真的是有很多事要做，拜託部長，我們一起努力。最後我問一下，剛剛我有聽到您答詢，問您怎麼阻止詐騙盛行，您有提到聲音被偽造的部分可以用通關密語的方式，老實說這是我兩年前提出來的玩笑，當時是很心痛只能用這種方法，我想請教一下，上一任數位部長說我們要用電子簽章來做身分驗證，結果我們已經通過了，你應該知道已經公告出來了，對不對？已經公告了，但是我們電子簽章法這一次有排除適用電子簽章法的公告原則，上路一年以後各部會都不可以排除，這一年已經開始倒數，到今天已經過了13天、過3%了，有沒有建立輔導機制跟掌握時程的規劃？對不起！主席，再借30秒，謝謝。"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員。其實交委會在討論的時候以及在立法院二讀、三讀，我們都努力來完成這樣的課題……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在有一年的時間來輔導……"],["呂署長正華：對，是一加二。"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有輔導機制和進度規劃？"],["呂署長正華：有，在討論法案的時候有3個附帶決議，我們會跟數政司一起推動，讓各政府機關把電子簽章法快速做導入。"],["葛委員如鈞：如果有的話，請提供給本席，也特別希望數發部真的要持續幫忙，尤其司法體系，他們的工作量能應該要用數位來協助。同時電子簽章法已經上路，總統也公告了，我相信各單位還有所有的民眾也都非常期待，希望我們可以一起努力達到便利民眾及公務人員的流程、減輕工作負擔的任務，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員發言完畢。","現在請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.021593750000001,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.99159375,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.73284375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.69471875,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.762218750000002,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.64284375000001,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.49659375,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.53034375,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.54284375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.21784375,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.82096875,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.11909375000002,"end":189.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.40221875,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.42221875,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":228.34971875000002,"end":240.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.81596875000002,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.77221875,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.54409375000003,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.55221875,"end":256.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.95284375,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.93534375,"end":263.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.34846875,"end":263.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.98971875,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.30971875,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.99596875000003,"end":318.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.56034375,"end":285.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":319.60971875,"end":338.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.54346875000005,"end":344.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":345.12471875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.28409375,"end":351.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.54846875000004,"end":415.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.08846875,"end":425.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.36971875,"end":429.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.25971875000005,"end":428.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.23409375,"end":439.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.91284375000004,"end":432.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.60784375000003,"end":461.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.00096875,"end":463.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.99659375000005,"end":463.28346875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.319,"end":7.12,"text":"謝謝主席有請黃彥男部長備詢請部長"},{"start":18.872,"end":43.272,"text":"王部長好,好久不見其實我們10多年前就已經見過面了當時我坐在您旁邊有很多的學習很高興今天有機會在交通委員會透過質詢來跟您交流那部長今天的業務報告和媒體專訪當中都有提到數位部接下來要推出的這個三件啟發的策略那內容當中有許多方向是與本席的想法相近的同時我也非常肯定您提到這個數位經濟"},{"start":44.873,"end":61.468,"text":"所以經濟是AI未來發展的這個康莊大道同時也是元宇宙的基石我相信這個這幾支箭都是非常有希望的那以下就來針對部長的這三支箭來跟您交流第一點數位發展部過去在電子信箱法的修正案的討論過程當中其實非常的支持"},{"start":62.068,"end":79.735,"text":"那也說會拿來打擊詐騙。各界的共識之下也順利的在4月底刪除通過。那本席非常樂見這個部長的第一支箭就是推動打詐工作。剛剛也提到3個月內要成立這個打詐通查網。那你也提到這個裡面希望仰賴民間業者的協助。"},{"start":80.735,"end":99.373,"text":"除了剛剛提到的很多廠商之外,廣告平台商也是有能力去偵測詐騙帳號的。如果這些GAFA可以多做一點事情的話,可能會減少很多詐騙。請問一下部長,有跟哪些平台聯繫的?因為剛剛都零星人有提到,我這邊就確認一下有跟哪些平台聯繫的,聯繫的進度如何?廣告平台商"},{"start":101.935,"end":124.426,"text":"委員報告謝謝委員讓我們有說明的機會其實我們次長上禮拜上任第一週禮拜五就已經找Google Meta9來討論針對於打詐專法裡頭相關的這些規範執行上怎麼處理那以及跟委員所來幫忙大家在一起支持的電子簽詐法之後如何在打詐專法草案的第30條能夠用"},{"start":126.267,"end":155.655,"text":"數位簽章或者FIDO或者是其他安全性的技術來驗證所以這些細節的部分應該一邊在你草案同時甚至還有一些執法要討論所以林次長已經有主持會以上報告時間有限感謝你都有達到了剛剛我們這個週末的時候這個在Meta這個平台被洗版看到很多名人接下來其實很多免費的YouTube的用戶也開始被詐騙集團的這些影片廣告給這個投遞那LINE更不用講更是一個大宗"},{"start":156.115,"end":183.938,"text":"當然我相信這些公司都沒有意要這個協助犯罪者那我想政府也必然有責任要來跟他們一起連結啦那我們另外一個問題也想請教一下這個通查網在建制的時候很可能也是希望大家來通報嘛對不對那讓你們可以查詢有沒有要導入電子簽章或數位身份的驗證行動自然人憑證TWCA的身份驗證讓檢舉人可以更快的驗證檢舉人的身份來幫助你們通知這些平台更快的下架這些廣告"},{"start":184.218,"end":205.876,"text":"因為這些平台在意的是什麼?到底是不是真正的人在檢舉?有沒有思考過要導入這個?這個當然是如果這個是就是如果我們要驗證通報人的身份當然要用這些工具好謝謝希望考慮一下那同時呢也部長也提到強化數位韌性是你的第二支箭那資安非常重要你們有這個資安檢測協助的服務但是目前只針對企業來提供資安檢測的服務"},{"start":210.14,"end":227.307,"text":"二零二二年臺大的兩個網站被害二零二三年臺大教務處的網站被害二零二四年期間大高中呢這個這個相關的被害兩萬筆資料流出那有沒有要提供民間團體學校數發部有沒有來輔導這個能不能稍微回應一下我們請那個"},{"start":228.627,"end":239.995,"text":"那個署長還是那個我們這個當然我們這個我們當然這個治安署跟治安院會對這個有些服務團幫助做一些服務那過去有些績效我是不是請那個署長先說"},{"start":241.834,"end":242.395,"text":"知安檢測服務網知安檢測服務目前只針對企業提供服務"},{"start":260.97,"end":285.518,"text":"而且還有30家優惠名額那學校呢?民間團體呢?政府單位呢?我們剛剛提到的全部都不是企業除了政府機關以外我們那個中小企業的部分我們今年會來擴大來協助提供這樣的服務對不起我時間有限我打斷你因為我剛剛問的是政府我不要問中小企業我也沒有要問企業麻煩回去稍微了解一下這個資安檢測服務應該要幫助更多人"},{"start":287.659,"end":308.438,"text":"第三支箭部長提到數位經濟我想數位經濟這兩字很微妙又有數位又有經濟我在這邊這個過去8年我們作為公民來觀察以及本席上任以來100天的質詢經驗裡面我已經發現只要有一個產業超過一個以上的部位在負責相安無事的時候有錢大家分"},{"start":309.099,"end":318.645,"text":"但是出事的時候沒有人要扛,最後都在踢皮球。你踢給他,他再踢給你。請問一下部長,數位經濟既然是數位又是經濟,數位部打算怎麼和相關部會分工?"},{"start":319.636,"end":322.618,"text":"希望注意一下分工那南北AI生態園區有預算規模有實成了嗎?到底是著重軟體還是硬體?"},{"start":345.368,"end":360.183,"text":"那個我們跟那個國發會的那個劉部長劉主委現在還在討論中不過現在是這樣子就是基本上我們是希望全島都是一個AI島然後這個AI所謂生態園區應該是跨全島而且是軟硬整合"},{"start":360.563,"end":368.312,"text":"好,真的是有很多事要做,真的拜託這個部長我們一起努力,那最後我問一下這個剛剛我有聽到您的答詢說這個問您說怎麼來這個阻止這個詐騙盛行,您有提到說這個聲音這個被偽造的部分"},{"start":379.024,"end":380.204,"text":"通關密語方式"},{"start":394.335,"end":414.276,"text":"應該已經知道公告出來了嘛 對不對已經公告了但是呢這個我們這個電子簽章法呢這一次有排除電子簽章法的公告原則上路以後一年以後各部會都不可以排除這一年已經開始倒數到今天已經過了13天過了3%了有沒有建立輔導的機制跟掌握時程的規劃對不起主席再借30秒"},{"start":415.718,"end":427.128,"text":"謝謝委員其實交通委員會在討論這個的時候那以及呢在立法院這個二堵三堵其實我們都努力的這個來完成這樣的現在有一年的時間來輔導有沒有輔導機制和進度對話因為也有在法案的時候有三個附帶結議那我們會跟訴證師一起來去推動讓各"},{"start":436.016,"end":460.749,"text":"政府機關能夠把電子簽章法能夠快速來做導入好如果有的話請提供給本席那也特別希望數發部真的要持續幫忙尤其司法體系真的他們的工作量能應該要用數位來協助同時電子簽章法也已經上路總統也公告了我相信各單位還有所有的民眾也都非常的期待希望我們可以一起努力達到便利民眾便利公務人員的流程減輕工作負擔的任務謝謝謝謝葛如鈞委員"}]}},{"id":"153029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3a90daf14cec47697442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9ef5a2704e88a380b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:38:42 - 11:44:28","影片長度":"00:05:46","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":346,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:44:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:38:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時38分）好，謝謝主席，我請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，因為我本人對你比較陌生，但我今天好像看到媒體有問你問題，你今天不回答媒體的問題，單純只是生理上喉嚨沙啞，還是你比較謹言慎行呢？"],["黃部長彥男：喉嚨沙啞是主要原因，因為我這幾天講太多話，所以我現在聲音……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我看到你也有接受很多媒體專訪，也不至於說是把媒體拒於千里之外……"],["黃部長彥男：沒有、沒有，我一上任第二天馬上跟媒體互動，當然媒體很重要，只是因為我剛剛講，為了能夠跟委員有更多……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，感謝，你可能想把你的聲音留給我們委員質詢。好，剛才大家都確實提到有關於打詐的部分，因為在你們上任之前，我們的經濟部長郭智輝就已經被冒名成為詐騙工具了，你知道這個事嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，很清楚，而且郭部長一直在跟我LINE來LINE去，所以我都很清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，他應該有跟你complain這件事情吧？"],["黃部長彥男：有，那時候馬上即時處理，半夜都在處理，請我們呂署長說明一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：就趕快下架。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，因為委員也有在新聞上面說這個，部長、次長就很關心，因為部長算名人啦，所以我們就請它去做下架，目前這兩則確實都已經下架，以上報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是，問題是還有很多的名人，我上次聽到一個企業主管，他的老闆跟他抱怨，他幾乎每個禮拜都在要求他們處理冒他的名做這種投資的平臺，這個問題仍然沒有辦法解決，到底是為什麼？另外，到底這個實名制，金管會說已經有上路了，但是為什麼還是會出現這樣的問題呢？郭部長還是會被冒名成為詐騙工具呢？"],["黃部長彥男：那個網路廣告平臺就是我們現在的打詐專法要去處理的，我們如果通過之後……"],["王委員鴻薇：要強力打詐……"],["黃部長彥男：希望委員支持，這個法很重要，因為這個通過之後，我們就可以對像Meta、Facebook……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我們在通過之前，能不能跟這些Google、Meta請他們必須要予以配合呢？"],["黃部長彥男：有、有，剛剛就講過……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為其實在上一屆，我們不停地質詢，後來林右昌部長才去拜會包含Google跟Meta，讓他們說可以24小時內下架，以前連下架都非常困難，可是這樣子大家疲於奔命，到底一定要等到我們打詐專法通過之後，才能夠根除這些問題嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在先成立一個叫打詐通報查詢網，這個目的就是希望能夠縮短，基本上如果我們看到，我們自己會主動去向Facebook scan，如果看到這樣一個廣告，我們馬上就通報Facebook，希望縮短到像剛剛講說半天或一天的時間，現在我們是希望馬上下架，所以這一點，我們時間上可以用技術把它縮短。第二點，剛剛委員講的沒錯，我們會跟這幾個平臺公司常常溝通聯絡，然後希望他們完全配合我們的政策，目前有逐漸地看到一些效果，但最後如果要用強制方法，還是要靠打詐專法通過，我們有棍子可以敲他們……"],["王委員鴻薇：現在是要求他們在臺灣必須要設立代表人，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，代理人。"],["王委員鴻薇：至少要有法遵的代表，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：在這之前，在法之前的話，我們難道就完全沒有任何的工具嗎？還有，未來這個打詐專法是不是對他們會有罰則呢？"],["黃部長彥男：也會有罰則，如果打詐專法通過的話，基本上可以罰，罰到一個地步如果他們不配合，我們甚至……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們準備怎麼罰法？"],["黃部長彥男：這個罰的細節，就是說看他每次最多可以罰到……"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼樣？你們現在準備要怎麼罰？對於這些境外的平臺，然後他們沒有在臺灣設代表人，或者沒有配合我們打詐相關的這些程序，要怎麼罰法呢？"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，我們在打詐專法第三章數位經濟專章，從第二十七條開始就是針對剛剛提到的這些包括大型的平臺，我們叫做網路廣告平臺業者，我們會根據每一個條文設計罰則，這個罰則最高可以處罰到兩千五百萬，中間當然有一些通知的期限等等，這個在行政院在打詐四法討論的時候，有關打詐專法第三章，其實政委有做跨部會的一個衡平性，這個要拜託委員，如果這部法律在審查的時候，委員早一點讓法律通過，我們能夠有一個法遵的部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個我們當然一定會支持，你說最高的話是兩千五百萬，有連續罰嗎？"],["呂署長正華：當然，因為甚至有些如果經專家會議審議，可以有時候限制流量或是阻擋連結，這些我們都在條文裡頭有一些規範，我想其實大家對於打詐都非常的重視，也要拜託委員來給我們做協助，以上報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：OK！我希望我們能夠成功，不要再有像郭部長一樣，其實好多的名人、還有一些企業主都有這樣的困擾，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員發言完畢。","現在請葛如鈞委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.32596875,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.63784375,"end":5.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.771593750000001,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.707843750000002,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.53784375,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.461593750000002,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.997218750000002,"end":27.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.54971875,"end":33.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.61659375,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.98346875,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.979093750000004,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.06721875,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.77159375,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.187843750000006,"end":69.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.976593750000006,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.26909375000001,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.92721875000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.80409375,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.66846875,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.13159375000001,"end":86.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.31284375,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.20471875000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.37971875000001,"end":131.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.41971875000002,"end":135.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.10284375,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.11534375000002,"end":140.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.89096875,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.86971875,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.18534375000002,"end":152.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.69909375,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.96471875,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.49784375000002,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.75784375,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.57846875,"end":230.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.91096875000002,"end":229.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.22284375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.96534375000002,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.33909375000002,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.71784375000001,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.64159375000003,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.21471875,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.26534375000003,"end":255.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.95721875,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.97409375,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.22534375000004,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.41096875,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.53096875,"end":317.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.33221875000004,"end":313.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.34034375000005,"end":316.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.41596875000005,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.92784375,"end":345.79971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.349,"end":5.61,"text":"謝謝主席我請黃部長請黃部長因為我本人對你比較陌生那我今天看到好像今天媒體有問你問題你今天不回答媒體的問題單純只是生理上喉嚨沙啞還是你比較謹言慎行"},{"start":28.918,"end":30.099,"text":"剛才確實大家都是提到有關於法詐的"},{"start":58.114,"end":58.835,"text":"對,他應該有跟你那個complain這件事情吧?"},{"start":78.72,"end":102.245,"text":"有那我也請那個那時候馬上計時處理半月都在處理那時候我們那個那個呂書長有在書長是不是可以說明一下就趕快下架委員報告那因為這個委員也有在新聞上面說這個那副市長就很關心所以我們就因為算名人嘛因為這個部長嘛所以我們就請他去做下架那目前他這兩則的確實都已經下架所以這個以上報告謝謝"},{"start":103.745,"end":128.467,"text":"可是問題是還有很多的名人我上次聽到一個企業主管他是他的老闆跟他抱怨他幾乎每個禮拜都在處理要求他們處理就是冒他的名做這種投資的這種平台這個問題仍然沒有辦法解決那到底是為什麼那另外我們到底這個實名制那個儘管會說已經有上路了但是為什麼還是會出現這樣的問題呢"},{"start":131.649,"end":139.532,"text":"還像這個郭部長還是會變成冒名成為詐騙工具呢?但是我們在通過之前能不能跟這些Google Meta請他們要必須予以配合呢?"},{"start":154.877,"end":180.76,"text":"經過我們其實在上一屆我們不停的質詢然後我們後來林佑昌部長後來才去代會了包含Google跟Meta那讓他們可以說24小時內下架以前連下架都非常困難可是這樣子大家疲於奔命到底我們一定要等到我們打詐在專訪通過之後才能夠根除這些問題嗎"},{"start":181.841,"end":204.348,"text":"我們現在先成立一個叫打炸通報查詢網那這個目的就是說希望能夠縮短就是說基本上如果我們看到我們自己會主動去去這個像Facebook去scan如果看到這樣的一個廣告我們馬上就通報Facebook希望縮短剛剛講說半天或一天的時間現在我們是希望馬上下架所以這一點我們時間上可以用技術把它縮短第二點就是說剛剛講委員講的沒錯我們會跟"},{"start":206.989,"end":207.069,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":222.811,"end":249.594,"text":"現在是說要求他們要在臺灣必須也要設立這個代表人嗎對不對至少要有法尊的代表對不對那在這之前在法之前的話我們難道就完全沒有任何的工具嗎那還有未來這個打砸磚法是不是對他們會有這個罰則呢有會罰則那如果打砸磚通過的話基本上就可以罰那罰到一個地步如果他們不配合我們甚至你們準備怎麼罰法"},{"start":251.161,"end":257.008,"text":"對於這些近外的平台然後他們沒有設這個在台灣設代表人或者沒有配合我們這些打詐相關的這些程序要怎麼罰法呢?"},{"start":268.422,"end":282.289,"text":"委員報告我們在打造專法的第三章就是數位經濟專章從27條開始就是針對於剛剛提到的這些包括這個大型的平台我們叫網路廣告平台業者那我們會爭據他這個"},{"start":285.01,"end":311.068,"text":"這個每一條文的這個設計法則那這個法則最高可以處罰到這個2500萬那中間當然有一些通知的期限啊等等那這個在行政院在打詐司法討論的時候我們這個打詐專法的第三章其實政委有做跨部會的一個橫平性那這個要拜託委員如果我們這個法律在審查的時候那委員早一點讓法律通過我們能夠有一個法尊的部分這個我們當然一定會支持"},{"start":313.45,"end":335.459,"text":"你說最高的話是2500萬有連續罰嗎?當然因為他這個甚至有些如果還經專家會議審議可以有時候限制流量或是阻擋連結這些我們都在條文裡頭有一些規範那我想這個其實大家對於打詐都非常的重視也拜託大家委員來給我們做協助以上報告"},{"start":336.38,"end":342.775,"text":"我希望我們能夠成功不要再有像郭部長其實好多的名人還有一些企業主都有這樣的困擾謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3fea6e9a2df5b4ec0442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e11cea8a727fe48bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:32:14 - 11:38:32","影片長度":"00:06:18","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":378,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:38:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:32:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時32分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。你有沒有發現今天大家都問打詐？有沒有在你意料之中？"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯，可以期盼，因為這是很重要的議題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我想很多委員在前面質詢的時候都講出來了，我來自於司法及法制委員會，法務部一直希望能夠增加檢察官助理或檢察事務官，就是要人手。其實我們知道上游如果沒有做好水土保持，底下防堵最困難，大家都同意，要源頭管理，是不是這樣？要源頭管理嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：源頭管理很重要，但是也要大家一起努力，應該都要一起……"],["鍾委員佳濱：都要做？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。對於源頭管理，大家都提到了網路廣告是一切詐欺的源頭，3個月高達3萬件，這些網路廣告的內容就是詐欺的源頭，你同意嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：很嚴重，而且金額滿高的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很嚴重，好。目前我們要去管網路的廣告平臺業者，以FB來講，它可以偵測廣告內容有沒有含政治、購屋、求職或金融內容，你覺得以FB的能力，它有沒有做到可以去偵測詐欺？有沒有能力？"],["黃部長彥男：它們應該有能力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有能力，所以要及早刪除、遮蔽，是不是？可以要求它嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們都有在跟它們做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，依未來行政院版的打詐專法──詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案第三十條，包括數位簽章、身分辨識，還要能找出委刊者的身分、偵測。如果四大業者包括Google、Amazon、FB及Apple、甚至LINE都願意配合，如果它不配合，你怎麼辦？你可以對這些網路平臺業者施以罰鍰、限制它的速度或封它的網嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我的瞭解是那個法通過以後，我們是可以罰款。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是可以罰款，目前的想法是罰款？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。後面限制它的速度或封網也可以評估，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再往下看。另外，行政院版規定廣告平臺業者達一定規模才去處理，這個規模的計算由數位經濟相關產業主管機關定之，你們數位部有想法了嗎？什麼叫「一定規模以上」？"],["黃部長彥男：一定規模以上，是不是請署長說明？"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講，因為時間有限。"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：正在想，對不對？"],["呂署長正華：這個有在討論，一定規模就是你剛剛講的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還在討論，訂出來了沒有？"],["呂署長正華：就是你剛剛講的，包括Meta、Google這些都會在裡面。謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。部長，但是未達你們的規模，不管你們的規模訂多大，詐欺廣告以後可以化整為零，專門找小規模的廣告平臺業者，舉例來說，依我們的年紀，我們成長的時候，以前報紙的小廣告也都很泛濫，涉及色情、詐騙，後來要實名登記制，結果這些廣告就往哪裡？往樓梯間、大樓牆面去亂貼，這些怎麼管？那時候的中央政府是新聞局管，但是零星流竄的就是地方政府環保局，是不是這樣？所以如果大規模的廣告平臺，你們管，那小規模的，你們要怎麼樣分工分流？有沒有想法？"],["黃部長彥男：小規模的，報告委員，第一個當然是先管大規模……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，先抓大，但是小的也不能放。"],["黃部長彥男：小的話再來看，如果它變成是一個問題的時候，我們當然也要進去管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好、很好，你們有積極，如果你不完全納管，它就逃入了法外之地，如果你們只管一定規模以上的廣告平臺，小規模的未規管就容易詐欺，這個時候如果要它實名制，有沒有法源？"],["黃部長彥男：小規模實名制，我想如果它的平臺到達一定的規模……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你還是要達到一定規模……"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，因為這個規模是授權子法，所以如果它這樣跑掉時，然後社會就覺得這個要處理，就可以機動處理，因為那是子法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們還是可以？需不需要增訂法源？"],["呂署長正華：對、對、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經有了，好，很好。"],["呂署長正華：就是子法上面，然後做一些研析、公告這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：往下看，過去我跟郭委員曾經對於第三方支付淪為詐團的幫手召開記者會，當時要求要比照虛擬通貨提出法遵聲明，而且要兩個月內完成登記。好，現在來了，過去在它的營登事項營業項目當中，有列三支的1萬2,000家，實際經營的大概上百家，目前通過審核的有82家登錄，只通過53家，是不是這樣子？"],["黃部長彥男：對，目前是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未來，我們是不是要繼續審查？會嘛！只要做三支，你們要審查嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：這個再請署長說明一下。"],["呂署長正華：跟各位報告，現在剩53家有通過，因為還會陸陸續續登，我們會去審查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以只要它沒有做到洗錢防制服務能量登錄，它就不得提供，境外公司也是如此，對不對？"],["呂署長正華：沒錯，然後我們也會有一些洗錢防制的查核，洗防法也有規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們用什麼手段來限制它提供服務？有沒有包括禁止金融機構跟它交易？"],["呂署長正華：它就沒有虛擬帳號，所以你如果不是這53家，金融就不給它虛擬帳號。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長請聽，現在我們金管會要配合協調的就是如果它不完成登錄，已經不核予虛擬帳號，但是我認為不核予虛擬帳號只是減少它的殺傷力，並沒有完全禁止它的破壞力啦！簡單講，這些三支只要沒有完成登錄，它就是高風險，金融機構不核予虛擬帳戶，但是根據銀行法第四十五條之一，銀行要建立內稽內控，銀行法第一百二十九條第一項第七款，它可以處以罰鍰，你們可不可以協調金管會直接禁止金融機構跟它交易，或者停止解析境外網域？可以做到這一點嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們跟金管會在這裡面有一些共識啦，所以會處理，至於停止解析境外網域，這個如果有法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有法源，趕快跟我們講，我們訂進去，好不好？"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，因為過去謝謝委員提醒，這樣子我們會後來跟金管會看它在銀行法或者是銀行法相關規定裡頭怎麼去做執行，因為這種的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們一併來修，好不好？"],["呂署長正華：我們來努力……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我過去在財政委員會啦！"],["呂署長正華：是，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括停止解析也可以啦？"],["呂署長正華：我們來去協調，因為這都有法遵……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後，我就把這個做結論，希望你們比照金融機構，第三方支付要成立公會，他律也要自律，是不是請金管會去徵詢相關公會的意見，第三方支付也有專屬的公會，比照金融機構成立專屬公會建立自律規範，你們樂不樂見？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我覺得很好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝，我會跟金管會主委來報告這一點，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員發言完畢。","現在請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.49034375,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.340343750000002,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.610343750000002,"end":31.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.507843750000003,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.96096875,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.02846875,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.31096875,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.032218750000006,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.907843750000005,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.992218750000006,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.612218750000004,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.89471875,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.22721875,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.58846875,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.65596875,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.08971875,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.77784375,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.96346875,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.58784375,"end":108.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.60471875,"end":110.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.83221875000001,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.36721875,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.48534375000001,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.95596875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.63909375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.04784375,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.02596875,"end":140.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.34659375,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.39721875,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.11409375,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":159.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.46596875,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.61346875,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.27971875,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.84034375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.86534375000002,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.18534375000002,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.00721875000002,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.96471875,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.31471875000003,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.71034375000002,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.58596875,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.90846875000003,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.02659375000002,"end":217.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.34284375000001,"end":250.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.45596875,"end":250.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.62471875000003,"end":254.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.67534375000002,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.33284375000002,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.46784375000001,"end":256.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.26096875,"end":258.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.50534375,"end":258.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.69096875,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.20971875000004,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.29409375,"end":261.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.51346875,"end":261.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.32346875,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.34034375000005,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.47534375000004,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.83784375,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.03159375,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.01034375,"end":273.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.84909375,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.92034375000003,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.45596875,"end":285.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.22346875,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.31596875,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.81784375,"end":285.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.92721875,"end":285.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.97784375000003,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.32784375,"end":288.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.84534375000004,"end":309.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.24409375000005,"end":322.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.88346875,"end":331.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.47284375000004,"end":331.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.60784375000003,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.65846875,"end":331.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.75971875000005,"end":332.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.02971875000003,"end":333.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.29534375000003,"end":333.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.36284375,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.74659375000005,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.96596875,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.03346875,"end":335.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.20221875000004,"end":335.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.28659375,"end":352.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.47471875,"end":347.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.75721875000005,"end":347.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.80784375,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.73159375,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.91284375000004,"end":352.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.34721875,"end":352.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.44846875,"end":355.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.03909375,"end":366.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.08346875,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.75346875,"end":376.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.07784375,"end":378.52034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.656,"end":10.042,"text":"主席、在場委員先進。列席的政府教授、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請黃部長。請黃部長。"},{"start":18.639,"end":41.815,"text":"委員好部長好你有沒有發現今天大家都問打詐有沒有在你意料之中可以期盼對因為這是很重要的議題所以對沒錯那我想很多委員的前面的都講出來了我來自於司法法制委員會法務部一直希望能夠增加檢察官助理或檢察事務官就是說要等守其實我們知道上游們最好隨頭保持底下防堵最困難大家都同意嘛要源頭管理是不是這樣"},{"start":43.284,"end":58.278,"text":"來到源頭管理嘛源頭管理很重要但是對我講說大家一起努力這應該是都要一起都要做好那源頭管理大家都提到了網路廣告是一切榨氣的源頭三個月高達三萬件這些內容就是榨氣的源頭你同意嗎"},{"start":59.159,"end":59.259,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":77.625,"end":78.125,"text":"他們應該有能力"},{"start":108.266,"end":130.269,"text":"我的了解是我們那個法案通過後我們是可以罰款你們是可以罰款目前的想法是罰款對好後面限制到的速度或封網也可以評估好不好對好再往下看那另外呢行政院把他說一定規模他才去處理這個廣告平台業者啦那這個規模的計算他包括數位部或星際你們數位部有想法了嗎什麼叫一定規模以上一定規模以上是不是姓陳"},{"start":131.33,"end":154.009,"text":"簡單講,因為時間有限。謝謝委員。你正在想嗎?對不對?因為這個有得討論。一定規模就是...還沒申請出來沒有?你剛才講那個裡面,Meta、Google,這些都會在裡面。好,來,那個部長。但是如果未達你們的規模,不管你們的規模有多大,那詐欺廣告也會化整為零啊,專門找小規模的平台業者啊,找廣告平台。舉例來說,以我們的年紀,我們成長的時候,"},{"start":154.73,"end":172.24,"text":"以前的報紙加廣告也都很氾濫射情啊詐騙啊後來要實名登記制結果呢這些廣告就往哪裡往樓梯間啊大樓的牆面就亂貼那這些怎麼管那時候的中央政府是新聞局管但是呢小零星的流竄的呢就地方政府環保局是不是這樣"},{"start":173.26,"end":200.72,"text":"所以如果大規模的廣告平台你們管那小規模的你們要怎麼樣分工分流有沒有想法小規模這個不好委員這個第一個當然是先管大規模當然先抓大但是小的也不能放小的話再來看如果他的那個到變成是一個問題的時候我們當然也要進去管好很好你們有積極齁好如果你不完全納管他就逃入了法外之地如果你們只管一定規模上的廣告平台小規模的未歸管就容易詐欺那這個時候如果要他實名制有沒有法源"},{"start":201.621,"end":220.212,"text":"小規模實名制我想如果他的平台到來那個一旦你還是要一來一定規模吧對對對跟委員報告齁因為這個規模因為呃只是授權執法所以若他這樣跑去的時候啊然後社會就覺得說這個要處理我們那個機動可以處理啊應該都是執法嘛對對對對就是執法上面然後做一些聯繫做公報這樣子往下看對"},{"start":226.595,"end":252.903,"text":"來過去呢我跟郭委員曾經對於第三方智庫輪迴詐團的幫手召開記者會那當時呢要求呢要比照虛擬通貨提出法尊聲明才能而且要兩個月內完成登記好現在來了過去在他的營燈事項頁目營業項目當中有列三隻的一萬兩千家實際經營的大概上百家目前通過審核的有82家登錄只通過53家是不是這樣子對那未來未來我們是不是要繼續審查"},{"start":255.656,"end":279.896,"text":"會嘛齁?只要他做三支你們要審查嗎?這個再請署長拍照跟我們報告齁 現在有13家有同櫃啊來 因為以前還會陸陸續征啊我們會去審查所以只要他沒有做到洗錢房子服務能量登錄他就不得提供境外公司也是如此嘛對不對然後我們會有一些洗錢房子的查核這個洗房法也有幾點那你們用什麼手段來防止限制他提供服務?"},{"start":280.236,"end":308.202,"text":"有沒有辦法禁止金融機構跟他交易?他就沒有那個虛擬帳號所以你如果不是這53金融就不給他虛擬帳號來部長請聽現在我們金融會配合協調的就是已經不合與虛擬帳號如果他不完成登錄但是我認為不合與虛擬帳號是減少他的殺傷力並沒有完全禁止他的破壞力啦簡單講這些三支呢只要沒有完成登錄他高風險金融機構不可以虛擬帳戶但是根據銀行法第45條之一"},{"start":310.387,"end":322.057,"text":"銀行要建立內機內控銀行法第129條第1項第7款他可以處於華凡你們可不可以協調金管會直接禁止金融機構跟他交易或者停止解析境外網域可以做到這一點嗎"},{"start":323.095,"end":336.359,"text":"我們在跟金管會就是在這裡面有一些共識所以所以會那個那這個這個停止解析金管委員這個如果有法如果有有法員對有法員那趕快跟我們講我們訂進去好不好跟我們報告這因為過去這多少委員提醒啊這樣子我們會後我們跟金管會看他在銀行法或是銀行法相關規定裡頭怎麼去做執行因為這種"},{"start":346.502,"end":370.103,"text":"我們一併來修嘛好不好我過去有在財政委員會啦我來去協調最後主席站起來了我就做個結論希望你們比照金融機構第三方支付要成立工會啦他律也要自律啦那是不是請今晚會我們去請他徵詢相關工會的意見第三方支付也有專屬的工會比照金融機構成立專屬工會建立自律塊你們樂不樂見"},{"start":371.804,"end":372.025,"text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員"}]}},{"id":"153027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b326e940bf6be4e8d85186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e7a31f6bcd47a9ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:44:07 - 11:50:25","影片長度":"00:06:18","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":378,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:50:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:44:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.489093750000002,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.222843750000003,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.41659375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.91409375,"end":20.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.93909375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.01034375,"end":27.250343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.48659375,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.75221875,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.549093750000004,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.135343750000004,"end":34.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.35034375,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.518468750000004,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.68721875,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.73784375,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.142843750000004,"end":40.446593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.81784375,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.54721875,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.234718750000006,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.39471875,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.89596875,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.40909375,"end":65.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.09659375000001,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.17221875,"end":69.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.73721875000001,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.71534375,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.56721875000001,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.76096875,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.51596875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.04284375,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.11409375000001,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.98721875000001,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.82659375,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.64721875000001,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.90034375,"end":107.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.54159375,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.90221875,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.96846875,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.17471875,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.19159375,"end":187.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.99346875,"end":189.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.89159375,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.02096875,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.07034375,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.10409375,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.88034375,"end":234.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.63971875000001,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.23284375000003,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.15159375000002,"end":263.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.13784375,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.90471875000003,"end":269.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.10284375000003,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.23784375,"end":269.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.53721875,"end":270.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.19534375,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.93784375,"end":303.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.59534375000004,"end":315.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.53471875,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.59346875,"end":315.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.23471875,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.39846875,"end":321.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.88784375,"end":322.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.98034375000003,"end":339.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.93784375,"end":326.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.51159375000003,"end":326.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.34909375,"end":346.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.69409375000004,"end":362.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.85784375000003,"end":352.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.48909375,"end":376.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.90471875000003,"end":376.69784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.354,"end":21.48,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是請何部長。好,請何部長。部長你好。我請教,因為114年政府行政機關辦公日曆表似乎還沒有開會討論確定人事行政總署預計何時會開會。你知不知道?"},{"start":35.771,"end":42.102,"text":"這我可能要查一下呢這我不是很了解因為齁全民都很期待五一勞動節改為全國"},{"start":45.106,"end":65.147,"text":"這個國定假日。那本時是希望說這個114年起五一勞動節能夠讓全國統一休假。那何部長因為行政院長卓部長卓院長有沒有交辦處理與內政部跟人事行政總組到底何時開會那時候會有結論。"},{"start":69.063,"end":85.328,"text":"那個委員因為這個其實是陳院長時代確實他有處理所以說你們目前我們並沒有接到卓院長有這個指示那個其實因為你要統一結果現在這個事情其實當很久了"},{"start":86.124,"end":86.404,"text":"議員：林德福"},{"start":107.645,"end":132.605,"text":"第二根據內政部統計八十歲以上的人口至今今年的四月一共有九十一萬人此外國發會推估到2034年八十歲以上的民眾差不多有一百六十二萬人許多高齡長者需要有人來照顧但是巴士亮表制度卻讓許多家庭感到苦惱更造成許多醫病關係緊張的狀況"},{"start":134.747,"end":159.919,"text":"那行政院卓院長就任時就宣布說行動創新AI內閣啟動他強調將推動胡國立民的法案本席今天當然我有提出來就是說就業胡法第46條的草案就是胡國立民的法案那我希望勞動部啊這一次也能夠支持這個案子那個部長有什麼看法"},{"start":160.239,"end":188.526,"text":"委員您的提案我就是非常肯定您的這個提案的精神那我就是說可是就是說我們因為同時必須考慮很多因素不過沒關係就是說在這個其實從去年到現在我們在這個巴士量表的部分已經做了多元認定的改革然後這部分已經有3.2萬人在使用而且它跟巴士量表幾乎是但是新的政府我認為說"},{"start":191.086,"end":214.214,"text":"新年新氣象我希望大家這麼個看法你們應該要去改革部長除季總促公佈113年一到四月消費者物價指數平均較上年的同期漲了2.24%勞工在抱怨說薪資漲幅跟不上物價的上漲"},{"start":215.635,"end":231.112,"text":"同樣的問題我問過前部長許明春那現在我來詢問新政府的態度依法最低工資的審議討論將在每年的第三季進行那我請問勞動部何部長你認為何時最低工資會超過三萬塊"},{"start":236.655,"end":244.679,"text":"委員報告我們最低工資今年年是元年最低工資法通過後的最低工資元年那今年第三季我們會很快的召開諮詢小組會議會不會落在2026年地方選舉前來宣布調整會嗎"},{"start":254.345,"end":268.796,"text":"委員我們每年都必須去審議最低工資的這個要不要調漲的問題對每年喔今年年也會有做任何事情要積極不要好像都有政治目的才來推每年都會處理那個部長"},{"start":271.238,"end":298.061,"text":"因為根據勞動部一一三年一月底大專畢業生的勞動概況一一二年畢業生可工作人口差不多十九萬人其中有參加勞保、工保、農保差不多合計也有十三萬人但是也有六萬人沒有參加勞保、工保、農保換言之一一二年畢業生有百分之三十一的人沒有進入就業的市場"},{"start":299.002,"end":302.386,"text":"那我請問勞動部何部長,這算不算是畢業就是失業的狀況?當然是我們19到24歲這個失業率確實稍微高一些7.8%左右嘛。"},{"start":316.501,"end":339.742,"text":"對,七點七九可是呢他有一個狀況就是說他們可能在嘗試中就是年輕人啦還在嘗試尋求委員會安排投資青年就業方案的第二期的第二期執行進度專案報告以例外界了解到底青年就業問題到底有沒有改善我認為這很重要"},{"start":340.442,"end":361.505,"text":"其實有欸有喔對我們其實我們現在失業率是降低的青年失業率是降低的我希望說能夠朝著畢業就有工作那當然不可能百分之百啦但是不要畢業生有百分之三十一因為你有進入職場最起碼你有勞保工保農保最起碼"},{"start":362.466,"end":376.937,"text":" ﹖﹖﹖"}]}},{"id":"153026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b39ea2e85a91a3c8d05186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e1929f9a8c62863435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:36:36 - 11:43:58","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":442,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:43:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:36:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.52659375,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.711593750000002,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.56596875,"end":38.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.52284375,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.06284375,"end":91.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.06721875000001,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.36659375,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.35784375,"end":102.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.81659375000001,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.60221875,"end":124.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.56346875,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.14971875,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.15721875,"end":183.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.11846875,"end":142.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.00471875000002,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.60784375,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.60346875000002,"end":201.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.87284375000002,"end":209.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.07409375,"end":232.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.14221875,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.57159375,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.88659375,"end":254.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.02909375000002,"end":255.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.12596875,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.10846875000004,"end":260.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.05159375,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.90221875000003,"end":319.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.55096875000004,"end":318.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.69409375000004,"end":320.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.06534375,"end":327.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.92534375,"end":325.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.14409375,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.19409375000004,"end":335.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.88971875000004,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.52659375,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.37409375000004,"end":342.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.16721875,"end":351.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.43596875000003,"end":361.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.55659375000005,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.51534375,"end":388.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.40909375,"end":389.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.47221875,"end":401.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.52096875,"end":406.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.45721875000004,"end":439.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.48784375,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.35221875,"end":429.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.39784375000005,"end":433.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.53221875,"end":439.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.75534375,"end":441.51471875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.933,"end":9.836,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早安有請何部長請何部長"},{"start":14.927,"end":38.266,"text":"好部長早恭喜部長在擔任我們的勞動部長那我有看過部長的一些經歷部長過去不僅是在這個立法院服務過那也過去也擔任過這個行政院的副秘書長那我相信你應該是這個最了解民生最可以苦民所苦那本席也期待你可以用專業讓我們的人民更好"},{"start":39.447,"end":58.316,"text":"首先還是要請教部長有關於賴清德520的就職演說的部分其實我有讀過,整體讀過他針對全民現在最關心的就是我們現在全台灣一千多萬的勞工的勞保他提了一句話他說大家關心勞保財務我再次強調只要政府在勞保絕對不會倒"},{"start":60.157,"end":83.987,"text":"那相信部長現在應該非常清楚現在很多的資料統計現在這個以勞保基金精算的負債是標破13兆那尤其在2023年底勞保基金的負債是13兆4650億照上一年度的2022年的時候是增加了12兆的部分是增加了非常多的金額那請問一下部長這個有關於賴總統講的說這個政府債勞保絕對不會倒"},{"start":90.55,"end":110.29,"text":"請問你們有沒有什麼措施來協助這個部分?委員我已經就一再的強調總統這一個談話他的內涵就是我們讓政府執政有能力發展經濟然後確保我們有足夠的財政能力可以對勞保進行挹注跟撥補"},{"start":111.952,"end":117.677,"text":"所以勞工朋友不要擔心我們這個撥補就是實踐政府最終支付責任的改革勞工朋友也絕對不要擔心所謂的潛藏負債因為這個潛藏負債其實不是真正的負債它是一個可能產生給負責任這個意思而已"},{"start":131.23,"end":154.356,"text":"就事實上絕對不可能一千零五十萬勞工在同一個時間領啦。那個是會分階段慢慢發生的。好,部長謝謝你的說明。第二點我要跟您特別報告。這個潛藏負債是因為這個國際上它因為一些準則的規定它不用列到我們每一個國家的總負債當中。可是不代表第一個不代表它不是負債。就像剛剛部長特別提到說如果有人領"},{"start":155.556,"end":183.526,"text":"他就是要給付所以只要以財快的角度來講只要有人領他就對政府來講他就是一種負債只是說現在依照準則的部分不用列到這個國家的總負債這一點要跟這個部長來說明了那第二點要跟部長拜託的是說這個金額有一個原理就是我剛有特別提到他的金額一直不斷的在快速的增加當中所以還會累積到十三兆所以萬丈高樓平地期他會累積到十三兆一定是他"},{"start":184.526,"end":200.925,"text":"的金額一直不斷負債一直不斷的增加所以我們當然對待總統講的這一段話不會倒事實上打一個很大的問號因為其實只要金額不斷累積去增加其實這事實上來講這金額越來越高感覺起來就是沒有解決人民的問題啦因為只要假設"},{"start":201.946,"end":216.084,"text":"我我進去的錢比他領出來的錢還要多造成這個負債金額越來越大其實就是會造成這個金額越來越高所以拜託部長因為你才剛上任我相信這是一個壓力可是也是一個責任啦所以我今天不是要你去一定要回答這個問題"},{"start":217.385,"end":238.419,"text":"指摘說希望部長可以來研究一下那你要跟部長請教一下請問在這個今年度的時候有沒有新的勞保的政策會來實行你們有沒有在演繹一些新的政策我覺得這才是全民想要去了解請問部長有嗎哦我有啊就是除了這一個我們撥補持續的撥補之外而且那金額是相當"},{"start":239.685,"end":255.501,"text":"是也會不低於去年度的喔所以這個是大概1200億左右的規格然後呢我們在開源部分我們會做很多努力啦但有沒有可能性啦我只問可能性有沒有可能會增加每一個勞工的勞保費啊不可能"},{"start":256.141,"end":272.451,"text":"不可能嘛吼好了解這點我相信大家最重視的是這一點吼那因為時間關係有第二第二個問題喔台灣現在目前第一個面臨到最嚴重的就是少子化問題喔經濟統計報告顯示現在一個家庭現在平均生小孩只有一點零九個人喔就全台灣最"},{"start":273.291,"end":300.312,"text":"全世界最低所以今天我跟部長報告大家很重視的是在養跟育所以今天我相信國民黨團提出來的版本是產假的增加到12週就是希望這個媽媽們願意生小孩那這部分我剛才也聽到部長講你說要做一個縝密性的商量所以我還是希望說部長這個部分應該要來幫苦民所苦應該來增加"},{"start":301.673,"end":327.694,"text":"我覺得謝相部長其實你剛剛一直有提我一點我一點是非常認同的就是其實講白的就是再增加看看有沒有辦法對這個出生率比較少的一個部分來做增加我相信部長這邊大家一起來一起來努力這個部分我是非常的贊同所以這個部分我就沒有要問你了所以我們這邊也有提一些這個國際的一些一些的範例給你參考那最後一個我要來苦民所苦就是說"},{"start":329.175,"end":329.896,"text":"最後一題最後一題就是保姆的部分"},{"start":342.415,"end":361.653,"text":"好,最近我一直在這個民間遇到很多的我剛剛一直在講嘛養跟育都很重要可是我要幫我們這個全這個很多現在正在做保姆的人來幫他們申訴就我了解現在有在宅在家裡幫忙帶的保姆的他們的費用一個兩歲以下"},{"start":362.614,"end":382.615,"text":"我可以帶兩位的保母一個人平均能帶小孩的他能收到的費用只有一萬七千塊兩個人的話就是這個三萬四千塊扣掉勞健保費用還有一些水電費的話一個人能拿到的錢不到三萬塊所以這邊我要跟這個部長拜託的是說這個很明顯喔"},{"start":383.556,"end":384.837,"text":"我相信政府單位這邊應該來協助這邊。部長你怎麼看?"},{"start":401.608,"end":429.762,"text":"啊這其實這是衛福部這邊我瞭解是衛福部的責任可是就是說他也是我們的勞工所以我需要這個兩邊可以互相來做支援就是說兩邊互相做討論當你們發現說台灣的勞工尤其是這些保姆他取得薪資相對較低的時候你們應該也要建議衛福部這邊這個薪資的部分是不是可以卓與調高啊不然很多的這個保姆他們其實壓力非常的大所以這邊我只是"},{"start":430.162,"end":441.852,"text":"響鐘!"}]}},{"id":"153025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b391f133cfa2c4cb2de6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9eb4c5dca502bbe6835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:24:08 - 11:39:06","影片長度":"00:14:58","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":898,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:39:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:24:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時24分）謝謝主席。請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。首先歡迎鄭英耀部長您來接掌教育部長這個職務，也期待鄭部長的帶領能夠將您在教育現場的實務經驗融入後續相關教育政策的擬定，讓國內的教育政策可以更加順利地推動。","接下來我要先向部長拜託，我在總質詢的時候有向時任部長的潘部長提出要求，就是我們很多學校，不管是他們的活動中心、體育館等場館，陸續因為年久而失修，導致屋頂漏水或有裂縫，還有地坪損壞、線路老舊等情況發生，因為這些整修的經費比較龐大，很需要教育部這邊來協助，那時候我有請教育部儘快盤點各校需要的協助，儘速統整相關資料提供必要協助，不知道目前教育部有什麼進度？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前盤點這些需要修繕的場館有一千八百多處，會逐年依照它的安全及急迫性……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以你們盤點的資料已經有出來了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：可不可以也一份資料給我辦公室？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：後續我再跟部長討論怎麼來協助這些學校所需要的相關協助。另外，國中會考在5月19日已經落幕，但是考試的過程還是又出狀況，而且這次出狀況是在本席的選區，本席接到考生跟家長陳情，在鹿港試場有考生反映試場監試人員將考試規則重複播放了兩次，而且還利用考試時間核對考生身分，讓考生浪費了1分鐘，其實英聽的考試只有25分鐘，整個考題聽完就已經用掉20分鐘，很多考生會在聽考題的時候就把答案先寫在試題紙上，邊聽邊畫，而在試題播放結束後，再用剩下的5分鐘把答案畫在答案卡上，所以這5分鐘對他們來講非常珍貴，被浪費掉1分鐘，他們只剩下4分鐘時間可以檢查答案，再把答案畫上去，所以這些考生非常非常的焦慮，也造成了他們有出錯。這個部分我想請教部長，你們有沒有掌握到這個狀況？後續要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心考生的權益，有關於這個因為監試人員疏漏的問題，會由全國試務中心跟地方召開一個申訴及緊急處理的小組會議，我想我們會從維護考生最大權益的方向來研商一個相對合理的處置。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，這個部分你們後續掌握到的狀況及怎麼處理，一樣一份報告給我辦公室這邊知道。","另外，本席在不久之前也詢問過關於統測題目抄襲的問題，現在統測成績單已經在5月16號開始寄發，離考試也已經過了將近一個月，但官網上面還是沒有看到調查的結果，請問現在對於統測題目涉及抄襲的調查結果是什麼？你們預計要如何改善？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個是不是請司長回答？"],["陳委員秀寳：好，請回答。"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，統測中心針對這個議題已經調查出來了，是沒有這樣的問題，題目都有改寫，命題方式也做過調整，而這份報告在統測中心的網頁裡有放置，我們再把……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以以教育部瞭解的結果，你們認定是沒有……"],["楊司長玉惠：不是我們的認定，跟委員報告，他們有透過三次邀請學者專家討論，包括大學老師或技高老師大家共同來討論。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分本席尊重你們有你們的專業……"],["楊司長玉惠：是，再一份詳細資料給委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是對考生權益的維護，其實本席一直都很關心，也長期在追蹤全國性考試的狀況，但是不論是哪一種考試，都是學生辛苦了好幾年所準備的，對他們來講，每一場考試都非常的重要，結果從去年到今年，陸陸續續都發生狀況，尤其是今年，學測、統測到會考，只要是全國性的考試都出包，出包率多到都已經快要變成常態了，部長，你覺得這樣的出包頻率可以接受嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想重大的考試，不要說重大考試，就是平常一般學校的考試也不應該出包，所以事實上我們對任何全國性的大型考試，都有一些標準……"],["陳委員秀寳：是啊！每一場考試都很重要，都不應該出包，但是這麼高的出包頻率，教育部難道沒有更有效的監督辦法，讓這些試務中心可以更正常一點運作，來維護考生的權益嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們會持續精進，在整個監試人員部分，包括整個流程，我相信我們會透過更努力的精進，一定可以降低這樣一個……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，本席要求教育部在三個月之內，提供關於學測、統測、會考等全國性考試的試務流程檢討，以及後續改善措施的檢討報告給本席，也希望教育部未來在部長的領導之下，可以有效的讓試務中心更嚴謹的辦理以後的考試，尤其分科考試測驗即將來臨，本席希望不要再有任何影響考生權益的狀況發生。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，這也是我們努力且應該要做的事。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。近期針對中國大陸學位生的討論很多，大家都很關心，賴清德總統在就職演說時也有提到將重啟學位生來臺，5月21號時部長也說全面恢復陸生來臺，在此要請教部長，針對大陸學位生的部分，是要比照過去的人數開放，還是會先一部分開放？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上，目前我們核定的一個既有辦法是各校招生的百分之二，在這個額度裡來進行學位生的……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以會先部分開放，陸陸續續的再增加名額，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：如果陸生願意來臺灣接受高等教育，我們當然樂觀其成，未來也不排斥招生名額的放寬。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席也肯認教育部先釋出善意的作法，其實我們廣納各國、各界學生來臺，不僅是培養人才，也是向外展示臺灣的方法。根據過去中國慣行的方式，其實陸生不來很大的變因是因為中國單方面的控制，基此，本席建議除了開放中國大陸學位生之外，是不是針對其他國際生，我們也可以把名額適度調整給其他國家，向這些國家優秀的學生招手？我覺得你們可以做這樣的調整。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，事實上我們是從這個方向在努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：另一個部分要請教，賴清德總統對AI發展也都有著墨，AI是國際趨勢，而且臺灣是高科技及半導體的重鎮，針對注重AI發展，本席這邊要特別強調語言程式教育向下延伸的重要性，過去本席不管是在委員會質詢，還是在院會質詢，都有提過，也都有關心過，本席在總質詢時也指出我國語言程式教育缺乏統一師資、統一教材，以及一致的目標，甚至許多規劃跟計畫都直接丟給地方政府，這樣恐怕會造成語言程式教育存在城鄉差距的隱憂，而且會讓教學現場的老師因為不同教材的規劃，而會有很顯著的不同。根據媒體報導，教育部相關小組曾經到韓國觀摩，針對韓國的經驗，他們在2025年時，有關AI數位教科書就會上線，這就是本席所提的統一的教材，請問教育部，對於統一的教材、統一的師資培訓，你們有什麼樣的規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上我們現在已經有建置一個中小學相關的數位學習教材，供中小學老師自由取用，當然我們也透過一些競賽方式，包括國際的運算、思維等挑戰賽的活動，希望透過寓教於樂或競賽方式來……"],["陳委員秀寳：意思就是你們有一個教材庫，供老師自己選擇？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，是，是。"],["陳委員秀寳：這樣就變成是沒有一個統一目標，在學生跟老師學習過後，也沒有一個統一的標準評斷，判斷學生是不是真的有完成這個課程。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們課綱事實上是有目標的，當然，因為小學在98課綱調整到108課綱的時候，是用融入學科方式，而融入學科在小學這個階段，我們……"],["陳委員秀寳：真的，我希望教育部不要把這樣的程式語言教育當成類似通識課程，好像是有上就好，我們既然有……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想不會啦！不會啦！"],["陳委員秀寳：我們既然有這樣的課程規劃，就要讓學生真正有學習到……"],["鄭部長英耀：那是我們產業人才的競爭優勢，所以這部分我們會努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，所以本席非常重視，我建議我國程式語言教育缺乏統一目標及教材的部分，一定要研議改進，針對各校的資訊教材補充之後，還要做後續規劃，請教育部要規劃各階段統一的教材，然後進行師資培訓，以供教育現場教師適用，針對這個部分，我希望你們可以儘速研議。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：是真的要落實，而不是說這樣的課程有上就好、我有安排就好。"],["鄭部長英耀：肯定不是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：關於我剛剛提的三個建議，請教育部儘快研議。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來要關心的是學輔法的進度，根據衛福部的統計，青少年自殺通報人數屢屢攀升，針對這部分，其實相關的心理諮商團體也呼籲一定要修正學生輔導法，尤其是關於專輔人力配置的條文，在上個屆期本席有提出修正案，但是因為屆期不連續，沒有辦法三讀，這個會期本席也會再提出學生輔導法部分條文修正草案，在此也希望教育部儘快研議學生輔導法的進度，不知道你們什麼時候會提出？"],["吳司長林輝：目前在行政院審查中，因為新內閣已經就任，後續我們會覈實提送行政院院會。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以你們已經送行政院了？"],["吳司長林輝：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：先前教育部在評估現場狀況之後，決議從今年開始大專院校的專輔人力將從1比1,200調到1比900，這部分本席也肯定教育部的努力，但針對高中以下的學校，在學輔法還沒有修訂完成之前，可不可以先編列預算來補足專輔人力的規劃，可以先這樣子做嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上我們是朝委員剛才所建議的，我們在國小跟國中也都有規劃，逐年增加專任的心輔人員。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是在學輔法還沒有完成修訂之前，也會先編列預算來提高這些專輔的能力、學輔的人力是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：麻煩主席再給我一點點時間，我會儘快。5月3號立法院有個兒童日，在此要先感謝陳培瑜委員，是他提議的立法院兒童日。本席選區的河東國小有到立院來參訪，其中有一組學生有一個概念，本席覺得非常值得提出來跟教育部討論。這個小學生的提案內容是：鑑於霸凌等問題頻傳，顯見家庭教育的失能，為補足並建立家庭關係之正向認知，未來孩子在進入義務教育之前，家長應強制修習一定時數之親職教育。這個是孩子們提出來的，孩子們本身在教育學習的過程裡面，他有感受到也許是同儕、也許是看到新聞媒體的報導、也許是同校的學生，他覺得家庭教育和學校教育都是不可或缺的，所以他提出一個這樣的建議，教育部是不是也可以來研議？針對這個孩子所提出的建議，其實很多教學現場的教師，對於家庭功能比較缺失的孩子，他們在教導上有一定難行之處，所以除了學校教育之外呢，家庭教育這一塊如何來補足，是不是可以研議讓家長來上親職教育？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員寶貴的意見，事實上，目前就有一些家長要接受家庭教育相關的知能，這是有的，至於未來要怎麼精進，我想也會跟地方政府積極研議，看怎麼樣來精進。我們知道家長跟小孩子之間，常常因為大家很忙，怎麼樣提升他們互動的品質，我相信這對家庭的功能，包括親職的教養都是一個正面的……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為真的身教重於言教啦，其實對學生來講，不管在討論學生輔導或是管教準則的時候，我們還是不能忽略家庭教育的重要性。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，部長請回座。","接下來請林宜瑾召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.422218750000001,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.403468750000002,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.21846875,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.99659375,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.24034375000001,"end":96.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.69096875000001,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.73659375000001,"end":136.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.22471875000002,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.02409375000002,"end":180.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.32721875000001,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.63471875000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.94659375,"end":244.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.83659375000002,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.37909375000004,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.74909375000004,"end":264.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.76596875,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.77846875,"end":266.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.50409375000004,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.42346875000004,"end":269.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.94096875,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.67909375,"end":310.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.91909375,"end":324.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.77784375000005,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.46346875,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.67721875,"end":351.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.30534375,"end":384.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.26284375,"end":352.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.15659375,"end":386.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.85659375,"end":411.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.14346875,"end":426.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.43284375,"end":428.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.29721875,"end":442.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.33721875000003,"end":478.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.72409375,"end":482.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.64346875,"end":482.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.75721875000005,"end":548.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.68346875,"end":575.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.74284375,"end":595.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.84346875,"end":579.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.00971875,"end":612.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.04096875,"end":624.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.5122187500001,"end":621.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.3259687500001,"end":628.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.90784375,"end":644.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.7234687499999,"end":654.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.4265937499999,"end":656.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.75971875,"end":660.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.21471875,"end":663.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.16784375,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.18471875,"end":667.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.59784375,"end":665.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.7959687500002,"end":667.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.23034375,"end":708.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.05409375,"end":723.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.83784375,"end":725.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.50409375,"end":726.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.3815937500001,"end":750.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.91346875,"end":763.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.89471875,"end":771.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.7803437500002,"end":767.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.01596875,"end":771.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.2690937500001,"end":854.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.4753437500001,"end":885.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.1753437500001,"end":898.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":895.5872187500001,"end":896.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":898.5403437500001,"end":898.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":898.6584687500001,"end":898.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":898.75971875,"end":898.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":898.7934687500001,"end":898.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.389,"end":0.409,"text":"陳秀寳"},{"start":19.451,"end":28.237,"text":"部長早安首先先歡迎鄭英耀部長您來接掌部長這個職務啦也期待說鄭部長您的帶領能夠將您在教育現場的這些實務的經驗呢融入後續的我們相關的教育政策的擬定讓我們國的國內的這個教育政策可以更加順利的推動喔那首先在這邊齁我先要向部長您拜託這個齁我在總質詢的時候有像當時時任部長的潘部長有提出要求"},{"start":47.79,"end":47.91,"text":"議員提出"},{"start":69.28,"end":82.741,"text":"要整修的經費都比較龐大很需要教育部這邊來協助那時候我有請教育部盡快來盤點相關需要的協助趕快來統整資料提供必要的這些協助不知道說我們教育部現在有什麼進度"},{"start":85.269,"end":100.935,"text":"我想這一個我目前在盤點這一個需要修繕有1800多的場館那我們會逐年依照他的一個安全跟他的一個急迫性所以你們盤點的資料已經有出來了可是會有一份資料給我辦公室"},{"start":101.975,"end":106.779,"text":"後續我再跟部長您這邊來討論怎麼來協助這些相關的這些學校所需要的協助那這邊來請教我們部長國中的會考在5月19日已經落幕但是在考試的過程還是又出狀況而且這次出狀況是在本席的選區本席有接到考生跟家長的陳情在鹿港的這個市場考生有反映說這個市場的監視人員將考試規則重複播放了兩次"},{"start":129.599,"end":129.619,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":152.091,"end":165.294,"text":"在邊聽邊畫之後的在試題播放結束再用剩下的5分鐘把答案畫在答案卡上那所以說這5分鐘對他們講非常的珍貴被浪費掉1分鐘他們只剩下4分鐘的時間可以來這個檢討檢查答案來把答案畫上去所以這些考生非常非常的焦慮也造成了他們有出錯那這個部分我想請教部長說目前你們有沒有掌握到這個狀況那後續你們怎麼處理"},{"start":181.726,"end":209.059,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個考生的一個權益我想這個部分我們在有關這個因為監視人員上的一個疏漏那我們會由這個全國的事務會跟地方來召開這個申訴跟緊急這個處理的小組會議我想我們會從維護考生最大的一個權益這個方向來延伸一個相對合理的一個這個處理"},{"start":210.52,"end":224.891,"text":"好那這個部分呢再來你們掌握到的狀況跟怎麼處理呢你也要一份報告給我辦公室這邊知道那本席在不久之前也詢問過關於統測的題目抄襲的問題那現在統測成績單都已經在5月16號開始激發了離這個考試也已經過了將近一個月了官網上面還是沒有看到調查的這個結果那請問說現在我們對這個統測題目之前有抄襲的調查結果是什麼你們預計要如何來改善"},{"start":240.78,"end":262.545,"text":"這個是不是能夠請我們這個市長好那請您回答好跟委員報告那我們統策中心針對這一個議題已經調查出來了是沒有這樣的一個問題他題目也都改寫命庭的方式是有做調整的那這一份報告在統策中心的網頁裡面有"},{"start":263.985,"end":266.886,"text":"所以以教育部這邊來了解的結果你們的認定是說他們有透過三次的邀請學者專家不管是大學的老師或是技高的老師共同來討論但是說對考生權益的維護呢其實本期一直都很關心也長期在追蹤我們全國性考試的狀況"},{"start":289.577,"end":300.562,"text":"但是不論是哪一種考試都是學生他們辛苦了好幾年所準備的對他們來講每一場考試都非常的重要結果從去年到今年陸陸續續都發生狀況尤其是今年學測統測到會考只要是全國性的考試都出包出包率都已經要變成是常態了部長您覺得這樣的頻率出包的頻率你可以接受嗎"},{"start":311.11,"end":327.913,"text":"我想這個重大的考試不要說重大考試就平常一般學校考試也不應該出包所以我們有事實上都任何特別全國性的大型考試都有一些標準每一場考試都很重要都不應該出包但是這麼這麼高的出包的頻率我們教育部難道沒有更有效的監督辦法讓這些考試的事務中心更正常一點的運作來維護這些考生的權益嗎"},{"start":337.503,"end":344.59,"text":"我想我們會跟委員報告我們會持續精進在整個監視人員包括整個流程裡邊我相信我們會"},{"start":346.752,"end":353.217,"text":"可以透過更努力的來精進一定可以降低這樣的一個部長本席這邊要求就是教育部你們在3個月內提供關於協策統策會考等全國性考試的這個事務流程檢討以及後續你們改善的措施的檢討報告給本席那也希望說我們教育部也可以"},{"start":367.887,"end":371.431,"text":"未來在部長您的領導之下可以有效地讓事務中心更嚴謹地辦理以後的考試尤其分科考試測驗即將來臨本期希望不要再有任何影響考生權益的狀況發生"},{"start":384.227,"end":399.494,"text":"是這也是我們努力我們應該要做的好部長近期針對中國大陸學衛生的討論也很多大家都很關心那賴清德總統也說在就職演說時有提到說將重啟學衛生來台那在5月21號的時候部長您也說全面恢復陸生來台那在這邊要請教部長我們針對大陸學生學衛生的部分呢是要比照過去的人數開放還是會先一部分的開放"},{"start":414.258,"end":415.079,"text":"所以會先部分開放陸陸續續的再增加名額是嗎?"},{"start":429.332,"end":435.137,"text":"本席這邊也可認教育部你們這邊先釋出善意的做法其實我們要廣納各國各界的學生來台不僅是培養人才也是向外展示台灣的方法"},{"start":453.534,"end":457.935,"text":"根據過去我們看一下中國慣行的方式其實陸生不來也是很大的變因是因為說中國單方面他有在控制本席這邊也建議說除了開放中國大陸的學位生之外是不是針對其他國際生我們也可以把這些名額適度的去調整給其他國家來向這些國家優秀的學生招手這個部分我覺得你們可以做這樣的調整"},{"start":478.78,"end":478.84,"text":" ﹝講解中﹞"},{"start":503.664,"end":525.881,"text":"指詢的時候還是在院會質詢我都有提過都有關心過那本席在總質詢的時候有指出我國的語言程式教育缺乏同意的師資同意的教材以及一致的目標那甚至說許多的規劃跟計劃都直接丟給地方政府這樣恐怕也會造成語言程式教育存在的城鄉差距的這個隱憂而且呢會讓教學現場的老師真的因為不同教材的規劃會有很大顯著的不同那根據媒體的報導教育部這邊相關小組有到韓國關"},{"start":534.868,"end":544.316,"text":"韓國的經驗呢他們在2025年韓國的AI數位教科書就會上線這就是本期所提的統一的教材那請問我們教育部現在對於統一的教材統一的師資培訓你們有怎樣的規劃"},{"start":550.428,"end":552.709,"text":"現在的意思就是說你們有一個教材庫那供老師自己選擇"},{"start":579.65,"end":579.67,"text":"議員報告．"},{"start":600.384,"end":616.591,"text":"小學在98課綱改為這個調整到108課綱的時候我們事實上是用融入學科融入學科在小學這個階段真的我很建議教育部你們不要把這樣子的城市語言教育當成類似像一個通識課程這樣子說我有上就好我們既然有這樣的課程規劃我們就要讓學生真正有學習到那是我們產業人才的競爭的優勢"},{"start":626.775,"end":654.133,"text":"所以說本席非常的重視在這邊其實我要建議我是希望說我國的城市語言教育推發統一的目標及教材一定要延益改進然後針對各校資訊的教材補充之後我們要做後續的規劃還有要請教育部這邊規劃各階段統一的教材然後進行私資培訓來供教育現場的教師才能夠適用這個部分我希望你們可以盡速的延益"},{"start":655.274,"end":662.746,"text":"謝謝是真的要落實它而不是說這樣的課程有商就好我有安排就好我肯定不是的那我剛剛提的這三個建議請你們教育部這邊盡快來研議喔"},{"start":668.308,"end":668.468,"text":"學生輔導法"},{"start":687.692,"end":703.241,"text":"在上個屆期本席有提出修正案但是因為屆期不連續也沒有辦法刪讀但是這個會期本席也會再提出關於學生輔導法部分的這個條文的修正草案但是這邊也希望說教育部這邊你們應該要盡快的演繹學生輔導法的這個進度不知道你們什麼時候會提出"},{"start":716.212,"end":729.782,"text":"目前在行政院審查中那因為新內閣已經就任了後續我們會就何時提送所以每天送行政院囉那先前教育部在評估現場狀況之後有決議說從今年開始大專院校的這個專輔人力是從1比1200有調到1比900這個部分本席也肯定說教育部這邊的努力啦"},{"start":739.389,"end":750.07,"text":"是不是說在高中以下的學校還沒有在HFR還沒有修訂完成之前可不可以先編列預算來補足這個政府人力的規劃可以先這樣子做嗎"},{"start":752.08,"end":770.628,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上在就朝委員剛才所建議的我們在國小跟國中事實上也都有這個規劃增加這一個逐年增加這一個專任的這個新府就是在學府法還沒有完成修訂之前也會先編列預算來提高我們的這些專府的能力學府的能力是嗎是"},{"start":771.348,"end":779.313,"text":"好謝謝主席再給我一點點時間我盡快5月3號我們立法院有個兒童日在這邊先感謝陳培宇委員是他提議的這個立法院的兒童日那本期選區的河東國小有到立院來參訪其中有一組學生有一個概念本期覺得非常值得提出來跟我們教育部這邊來討論那這個小學生的提案內容就是說鑒於霸凌等問題頻傳顯見家庭教育的失能"},{"start":798.744,"end":804.288,"text":"為補足並建立家庭關係之正向認知的未來孩子在進入義務教育之前家長應強制休息一定實施之親職教育這個是孩子們提出來的孩子們他們自己本身在這個教育學習的過程裡面他有感受到也許是同才也許是看到新聞媒體的報導也許是同校的學生他覺得說家庭教育"},{"start":823.721,"end":823.921,"text":"﹚提出的建議﹚"},{"start":842.509,"end":850.563,"text":"那所以說除了家庭學校教育之外呢這個家庭教育的這一塊我們如何來補足是不是說可以來研議讓家長來上這個輕職教育"},{"start":855.506,"end":879.498,"text":"感謝委員寶貴的意見。事實上我們目前就有這一個相關的一些家長要接受這一個家庭教育的這個相關的資能是有的那未來要怎麼精進我想我們也會跟地方政府積極的來這一個研議看怎麼樣的精進我們知道這一個家長跟小孩子我常常因為大家很忙那怎麼樣提升他的互動的品質"},{"start":881.139,"end":881.48,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3e8d4303c50a2b7985186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9ead198d53c25190395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:25:22 - 11:36:31","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":669,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:36:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:25:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.754718750000002,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.184093750000002,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.997218750000002,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.190968750000003,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.18596875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.39659375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.159093750000004,"end":44.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.59346875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.46659375,"end":48.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.45721875,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.726593750000006,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.70909375,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.37096875,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.31596875000001,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.98221875,"end":70.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.63596875,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.78346875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.04909375,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.47909375,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.84159375,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.93846875,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.20409375,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.48221875,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.68471875,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.20784375000001,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.11909375,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.54471875,"end":87.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.56534375000001,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.29096875,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.61159375000001,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.97846875,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.48846875000001,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.32721875,"end":102.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.08221875000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.47846875,"end":107.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.45721875000001,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.09846875000001,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.56971875,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.86846875,"end":123.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.99034375000001,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.09159375,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.80846875,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.49596875,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.62596875,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.71846875,"end":140.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.22034375,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.75596875000002,"end":140.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.64596875,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.88221875000002,"end":142.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.42221875,"end":143.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.41346875000002,"end":147.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.93971875,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.72846875000002,"end":155.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.29346875000002,"end":157.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.64784375000002,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.28471875,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.75284375,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.12409375000001,"end":160.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.54596875000001,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.96346875,"end":166.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.49471875,"end":169.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.74721875,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.51909375000002,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.81409375,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.67471875,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.13846875000002,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.48846875,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.17596875,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.74971875,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.31846875000002,"end":185.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.47034375,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.98034375,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.49409375000002,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.27784375000002,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.11721875,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.05346875,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.23471875,"end":208.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.17034375,"end":220.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.87409375000001,"end":227.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.79284375,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.35346875000002,"end":233.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.20534375000003,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.07846875,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.34346875000003,"end":242.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.86221875,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.73971875,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.68471875,"end":245.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.10221875000002,"end":247.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.54909375000003,"end":250.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.36721875,"end":259.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.04159375,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.09159375,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.86346875000004,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.20909375,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.93471875,"end":266.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.75284375,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.64284375,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.53159375,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.54346875000005,"end":284.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.36909375,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.65534375000004,"end":298.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.19034375,"end":303.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.12659375000004,"end":306.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.22346875,"end":307.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.51846875,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.38721875000005,"end":313.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.20971875000004,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.52596875,"end":322.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.28846875,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.40221875000003,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.03909375,"end":328.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.73909375,"end":333.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.22346875,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.21471875000003,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.36221875,"end":341.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.58971875000003,"end":340.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.39534375,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.42909375000005,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.49096875000004,"end":352.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.66784375000003,"end":357.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.81971875000005,"end":353.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.69721875000005,"end":353.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.79846875000004,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.17346875000004,"end":358.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.83159375,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.38409375000003,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.70034375,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.32034375,"end":362.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.19784375,"end":369.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.34034375000005,"end":373.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.35721875,"end":369.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.62721875,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.18784375,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.04846875000004,"end":379.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.45721875000004,"end":378.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.17846875000004,"end":394.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.85534375000003,"end":395.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.69909375000003,"end":397.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.25159375000004,"end":397.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.43284375,"end":403.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.69346875,"end":415.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.62846875,"end":417.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.82221875000005,"end":420.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.18034375,"end":422.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.59346875,"end":425.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.71971875,"end":435.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.36784375,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.35909375000006,"end":439.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.41784375000003,"end":442.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.10096875000005,"end":443.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.18096875000003,"end":447.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.51784375000005,"end":454.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.08659375,"end":454.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.72784375000003,"end":456.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.41534375000003,"end":465.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.38846875,"end":468.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.66221875,"end":470.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.72096875000005,"end":473.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.28596875000005,"end":475.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.77096875,"end":476.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.69034375,"end":479.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.78284375000004,"end":486.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.55409375000005,"end":490.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.78971875,"end":498.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.05971875000006,"end":491.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.13471875000005,"end":502.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.65284375000005,"end":509.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.06971875000005,"end":508.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.72346875000005,"end":515.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.3090937500001,"end":529.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.8215937500001,"end":534.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.66909375,"end":533.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.08659375,"end":538.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.22159375,"end":535.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.6472187500001,"end":540.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.40659375,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.1953437500001,"end":541.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.51596875,"end":542.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.24159375,"end":542.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.08534375,"end":545.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.6840937500001,"end":551.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.8940937500001,"end":555.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.2859687499999,"end":555.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.57284375,"end":560.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.51721875,"end":564.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.45346875,"end":563.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.31409375,"end":565.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.86659375,"end":567.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.53284375,"end":570.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.81096875,"end":572.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.07221875,"end":573.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.1015937500001,"end":574.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.8103437500001,"end":576.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.6159687500001,"end":577.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.81409375,"end":578.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.1809687500001,"end":579.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.0247187500001,"end":580.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.49284375,"end":581.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.18034375,"end":583.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.41221875,"end":585.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.23034375,"end":588.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.90096875,"end":589.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.37346875,"end":589.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.9640937500001,"end":590.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.2678437500001,"end":592.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.5290937500001,"end":593.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.51596875,"end":597.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.49034375,"end":601.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.6372187500001,"end":602.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.4809687500001,"end":604.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.38346875,"end":607.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.90221875,"end":608.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.60659375,"end":610.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.8047187500001,"end":612.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.5890937500001,"end":621.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.68909375,"end":628.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.62534375,"end":626.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.0047187499999,"end":627.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.89471875,"end":633.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.48471875,"end":666.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.56409375,"end":666.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.12909375,"end":669.09096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.976,"end":33.282,"text":"謝謝主席請下何部長好請何部長委員好部長好是部長國際勞工組織齁大概有指出說在工作中生育保護有兩個目的第一個就是我們要保護母體跟胎兒的健康是另外一個就是怎麼提供他就業跟收入的保障"},{"start":34.464,"end":56.19,"text":"也就是說不受解雇和歧視並且可以保障她、保證她產後重返工作權利那我們就所有受孕婦女的保障大概就必須要朝這兩個目的來做落實"},{"start":61.735,"end":62.936,"text":"一般來講齁,國際勞工組織他建議的產價最少是18週。是。那我們現在的產價是多少?8週。"},{"start":85.702,"end":100.326,"text":"我大概可以稍微更正一下。國際公約應該是規定14週。那我們現在我們的整個產價合併起來。那14週是不是就是跟現在的修法版本是一樣的?對不對?"},{"start":104.144,"end":122.957,"text":"委員這次的修法是12週啦是12週啊多數是12週那我跟委員報告我們現在的所有產價合起來包括安胎價產檢價產價本身8週有心部分合併已經大概15週了我們都大概符合國際標準15週是怎麼是怎麼"},{"start":125.306,"end":150.304,"text":"就是安胎假30天半薪日數沒有上限然後產檢假7天是全薪然後再加產假8週整個有薪部分的有薪部分喔合併就有15週喔對安胎假不是半薪嗎對安胎假是半薪啦我是指有薪當然也含半薪有薪你剛剛念的是7天加8週欸呃對"},{"start":153.766,"end":170.857,"text":"不是七週加八週欸是七天加八週欸對對對不對有薪價是九週九週啦全薪九週啦全薪只有週然後半薪還有三十天啦對所以"},{"start":172.89,"end":187.786,"text":"所以部長覺得我們這樣子對於孕婦職業婦女在受孕期間的保障她的假期是夠的?勞動部這邊的基本立場是不是這樣子?"},{"start":189.179,"end":210.829,"text":"當然希望可以更好啦可是這更好要評估就是說牽涉到勞僱雙方就是您講的更好可能就是我國的企業裡面大概有有超過97%是30人以下的企業微型企業就是未滿5個的大概有超過80%所以延長產價"},{"start":215.256,"end":237.556,"text":"怎麼降低中低企業的人力調配對這就是問題因為他們一定要有人取代嘛然後呢沒人取代的時候他就會乾脆那我就不請你了就會造成反而對女性就業不利啦對產後的女性就業不利對啊或是有可能懷孕的女性部長這樣子回答"},{"start":241.357,"end":266.63,"text":"議員．．"},{"start":268.373,"end":293.689,"text":"對,隱性的。這個是罪惡。我們法律上是不允許的。我現在的意思是這樣子啦就是說這次提出來的修法版本大概都是以12週的產假啦就是把原本的8週提高到12週那我現在只是在問說因為這個就是勞僱雙方要一起看一起"},{"start":294.89,"end":304.663,"text":"提供整個制度的設計才比較不會萬一修法完了以後馬上就有問題出來了所以我才在問說有沒有什麼"},{"start":312.438,"end":338.533,"text":"有沒有什麼想法部長對於降低中小企業人力調配的衝擊有沒有什麼想法啦我現在是問這個啦降低中小企業人力調配這個當然是這樣啦委員就是說如果說您支持這個產業要繼續延長的話重點是要讓它做得到啦"},{"start":339.493,"end":355.546,"text":"你如果是要雇主給薪,他就會不願意啊。所以如果要做,可能要朝公共化去設計啦。就是所謂的由政府來提供預算支持啦。那這個不裡面支持嗎?這個我還不敢問欸。我們可以往這個方向來研議啦。"},{"start":357.887,"end":378.054,"text":"我們來往這個方向演繹好不好?如果委員支持的話,委員覺得應該要這麼做的話。這個我目前就是沒有答案,所以我也沒有提出來。對,可是即便政府預算支持喔,它也有人力調配的問題。人力調配就不是我能夠去處理了。而且把很多"},{"start":383.757,"end":384.438,"text":"我問一下巴斯亮表齁"},{"start":398.513,"end":407.599,"text":"就是說衛福部在2022年的老人狀況調查中指出70歲到國人70歲到74歲的長者大概有19%75到79歲有25%80歲以上有32%這個比例是什麼呢就是他自認自己的身體狀況不太好或是很不好"},{"start":426.426,"end":447.442,"text":"那80歲以下我們不討論就是說80歲以上有32%的人覺得他的身體狀況不太好再加上80歲以上他有的時候身體狀況在健康狀況在下滑的速度是非常快"},{"start":448.621,"end":476.308,"text":"所以也就因爲這樣子所以才有免82票的主張嘛那剛剛我也聽到部長講大概我們現在有一些配套出來包括 包括長照需求的指數等等那我要問的是這樣子就是說假如說我們放寬了"},{"start":478.736,"end":478.878,"text":"怎麼確保"},{"start":480.834,"end":507.126,"text":"外籍移工的引進數量可以滿足因為臺灣馬上要進入超高齡社會其實像在澎湖獨居的老人很多怎麼確保外籍移工的引進數量可以滿足市場需求因為這有潛在的53萬的移工數的需求這是很龐大而且會產生衝擊的問題所以我們要審慎"},{"start":510.928,"end":527.945,"text":"那這個就是布裡面現在有沒有...我們沒有...我們就是害怕...就是我們擔心這個所以我們對這個問題我們會比較審慎對今天的修法雖然精神上我支持啦可是就是說做法上我們是不是可以再更審慎一點這樣子對"},{"start":529.867,"end":544.962,"text":"因為其實我還是要講我基本上是贊成的可是我又怕引進的勞動力不足會排擠到原來失能的照顧可是從另外一個角度來看就是說"},{"start":545.763,"end":571.581,"text":"我剛才講了嘛,我們的平均移民大概男性81女性84左右嘛表示說他到了80歲就一個臨界點所以確實是有需求才會有委員的版本這個我們必須要先承認這樣子那假如說外籍移工的引進數量你們沒有辦法確保"},{"start":573.12,"end":598.321,"text":"那恐怕第一個就是會有排擠的效益第二個會有移工來挑被照顧者的情況 對不對因為八十歲不用平定就可以聘請外籍勧勞工"},{"start":602.677,"end":612.782,"text":"那他可能是目前需求不大可是可是他他就先申請了"},{"start":613.649,"end":632.716,"text":"他財力上可以嘛,所以他先申請了,那他申請了以後就會有一個原本必須要受到照顧的長者沒有辦法受到妥善的照料。這一些問題希望部裡面都能夠趕快去做一些處理。"},{"start":634.236,"end":658.709,"text":"特別是引進勞動力的部分這個恐怕必須要加油因為台灣超高齡社會的來臨會很快在離老偏鄉會更快因為離老偏鄉獨居的老人太多因為在地就業的機會太少所以中壯年人口外流"},{"start":659.91,"end":663.753,"text":"所以這個請部裡面趕快去做一些計畫。好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"153023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b324758a19240c0271442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9eb5795aa85c5ef6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:22:20 - 11:32:01","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":581,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:32:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:22:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時22分）謝謝主席。我們請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，首先還是要肯定部長在上任之初就提出政策三支箭，第一個就是打詐，當然還包含發展數位經濟產業跟數位韌性。我想發展數位經濟產業跟數位韌性，這當然是部裡面的主要業務，但是我想民眾包含民意代表這邊，大家最關心的還是打詐的問題，因為打詐的問題其實真的非常嚴重，光是地方的警察局、地方派出所，在我選區裡面的派出所，剛好我這兩天要來質詢，我瞭解一下實務狀況，派出所大概每天，每天喔！每一個派出所大概可以收到5到6件詐騙通報、報案，這個是有案的，有的可能被騙還不知道，沒有來報案的，光是每天就有5到6件的案子，所以其實詐騙對於臺灣的民生經濟影響非常、非常重大。部長，你剛上任，也不能太苛求，但是我想讓你知道一個數字，有一個媒體可能晚點會公告，有一個民調，對於新政府會積極打擊詐騙，請問您對政府打擊詐騙有沒有信心？不太有信心跟很沒有信心的比例，不太有信心的17%、很沒有信心的31%，所以沒有信心的部分合計起來大概48%。我想問一下部長，你對於這樣的數字有什麼樣的感想，對未來施政有什麼樣的想法？"],["黃部長彥男：打詐是我們新政府的一個很重要的政策，行政院已經啟動這樣一個所謂打詐推動辦公室的作法，我們定期都有在跟各部會聯繫，因為打詐是跨部會的合作，我個人是滿有信心，因為我們現在的確在很多作為上，包括各個單位、各個部會都有提出新的作法，從資訊流、人流跟金流一起合作、一起下手，然後阻斷詐騙的管道，希望臺灣能夠是一個安全的地方，而減少詐騙。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。部長提到關鍵字，阻斷是最重要的，其實我們提了很多修法都只能後續的懲處，但是我們的確希望數發部，還有包括NCC在內，大家能夠從源頭把這個東西阻斷。所以回到這個政策本身，部長提到了打詐部分在3個月內要推出所謂的打詐通報查詢網，我也肯定這樣的作法，但是我要問部長一件事情，現在就已經有內政部警政署的165全民防騙網的功能，這個165全民防騙網跟你即將推出的打詐通報查詢網之間有什麼關聯性，或者這兩個東西會不會又疊床架屋？因為你要推出一個新的打詐通報查詢網還要再過3個月，我們現在就有165全民防騙網，當然是不同的部門，但對民眾來講，只要有詐騙相關的訊息，希望有一個單一的管道，不管是查詢也好、通報也好、或是各種新的詐騙資訊也好，民眾的出發點是希望只要透過一個網站或一個窗口瞭解就好，不需要有這麼多網站。所以我想問一下部長，到底這個打詐通報查詢網跟165全民防騙網未來是要整合，還是會有兩個網站的存在？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，看你的簡報就講得很清楚，如果我已經覺得這個訊息是詐騙，或是我已經被騙了，我來165這邊報案，我們的則是收到了訊息不確定的時候，可以先到我們這個網站來查是不是可能的詐騙，而不是我已經知道它是詐騙，我要來檢舉，所以這有個差異，也就是讓民眾收到訊息之後有個方式先來瞭解收到的訊息到底可不可信。而且我們這個查詢網會連結各個部會，當然也會連結警政署這個單位，就是我們已經看到這個訊息，經過AI的偵測確定可能是一個詐騙訊息，不需要民眾自動報案，我們這邊就把我們看到的訊息通報……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，你的意思是你們推動的打詐通報查詢網是屬於進行中的狀態，165全民防騙網查到的訊息是已確定狀態，是這個意思嗎？分工是這樣子？"],["黃部長彥男：就是民眾已經判斷知道是詐騙或者是他已經被騙了，他來這邊做……"],["黃委員健豪：我不能說你沒做事，但是我還是要拜託一下，其實對本席來說，詐騙問題的處理如果能夠整合，我覺得對民眾來講比較方便。講真的，現在165全民防騙網已經推一段時間了，大家有些想法及資訊一定是先上165去查詢，不會上打詐通報查詢網來查詢，現階段是這樣子。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們希望……"],["黃委員健豪：當然，我們希望一個網站裡面就能夠……"],["黃部長彥男：我們是一個入口、portal，會連結到各個單位的……"],["黃委員健豪：我當然希望你要做到不要有這麼多的版本……"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解。"],["黃委員健豪：就是部長剛剛提到的，打詐通報查詢網是進行中、可能潛在的狀況，165是已經確定的，但對我來講或對任何一個資訊有落差的人來講，他相信政府、上網查，就是要得到一個可能存在的答案，不要還分兩個，上165查不到，再上打詐通報查詢網查查看，我希望這件事情是能夠結合在一起的，部長，可以嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：可以，我們會整合。"],["黃委員健豪：你們會跟內政部來整合吧？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們會跟內政部做整合。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，前面也有很多委員提到包含名人詐騙的問題，這件事情就這樣，當初在推電子簽章法的時候，數位部也跟我們承諾推動電子簽章法之後，未來能夠減少這種名人冒名詐騙的問題，現在電子簽章法已經正式三讀通過之後，到底能不能做到防止名人詐騙的問題？"],["黃部長彥男：電子簽章法讓我們有個機制能夠做數位簽章、確認是KYC，可是剛剛講的，像廣告平臺商要不要用數位簽章，需要立個法來要求他們一定要做這個事情，這個法就是我們現在在進行的打詐專法，這個如果通過的話，廣告必須要做實名制，實名制的一個方法就是用電子簽章、數位簽章來做認證，這是一個方法。"],["黃委員健豪：這個法是罰廣告商，還是罰平臺業者？推動新的法律，你要罰的是誰？"],["黃部長彥男：它如果沒有配合我們做剛剛講的打詐的話，平臺商、平臺業者要被罰，對，沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：所以未來有機會我期待什麼時候你去罰包括Facebook也好、Google也好這些跨國公司，因為在臺灣到目前為止詐騙案件這麼泛濫，不管臉書也好、LINE也好、Google也好，他們是主要的詐騙平臺。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["黃委員健豪：當然，你要罰內容業者、內容產製者是沒問題的，但是我要問的是，這些平臺到底有沒有義務去規範？他們如果沒有達到法律要求，沒有去規範，我們的政府什麼時候才會對Facebook也好、Google、YouTube或LINE也好開出第一張罰單？目前有開過罰單嗎？目前都沒有嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：打詐專法通過以後，我們就可以，它如果沒有配合做剛剛講的這些事情，包括配合下架、處理，或者沒有做KYC、實名制的認證，我們就可以對它裁罰。這個當然還是要有法，法的部分就是剛剛講的打詐專法通過之後，我們會做這個事情。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，所以打詐專法通過之後，包含Facebook這家公司也會在你們裁罰的範圍裡面？"],["黃部長彥男：當然。"],["黃委員健豪：不會只有所謂的代理商、廣告業者被罰，連……"],["黃部長彥男：平臺商。"],["黃委員健豪：連平臺本身都會被罰嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["黃委員健豪：好。部長，最後一個問題，你在簡報裡面提到第三方支付也是你們管制的目標，但是第三方支付跟電子支付不一樣，電子支付是要有金管會的認證才有電子支付，但是第三方支付平臺有幾千間、幾百間平臺業者，是所有的你們都有能力、能量去追查嗎？還是要透過其他方式？"],["黃部長彥男：我們在第三方支付已經實施比方能量登錄，一萬多家登記的第三方支付業者現在只有53家通過我們的能量登錄，也就是我們可以集中管理這53家，這53家……"],["黃委員健豪：沒登錄的怎麼辦？我現在問的其實就是登錄很少……"],["黃部長彥男：沒有經過我們能量登錄的人在銀行就沒辦法拿到所謂的帳號，也就是說，金融單位要給第三方支付業者虛擬帳號，必須是有能量登錄過的人，通過能量登錄的人要做什麼事情？他要確認來登廣告或申請虛擬帳號的人必須是實名制，也就是說，他必須是真正的……讓很多詐騙的人就沒有辦法在通過我們認證過的53家第三方支付業者拿到虛擬帳號，用這個方式斷絕剛剛講的過去的網路詐騙，從這樣的例子，我們已經看到詐騙數目下降得非常多，從以前一個多月的……可以補充一下這個數字。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，第三方支付的部分要謝謝金管會，最開始都是虛擬帳號，現在它如果沒有在我們這裡登錄、非這53家的，就不會給它虛擬帳號，就沒有辦法匯錢進去。你說以前它沒做第三方支付，我們還是去查核，如果它願意要做，所以就不會像一萬多家，那就沒有辦法控制，現在100件以內的管理等等，我們會來努力，謝謝委員的指導。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，黃健豪委員發言完畢。","現在請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.840343750000001,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.70346875,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.17846875,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.299093750000004,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.424718750000004,"end":50.554718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.909093750000004,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.50409375000001,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.93846875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.68471875,"end":88.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.00659375000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.18346875,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.44096875,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.09346875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.70909375000002,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.49971875,"end":174.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.61971875,"end":178.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.55159375000002,"end":182.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.56784375,"end":211.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.86284375000002,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.43659375000001,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.34221875,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.99971875000003,"end":256.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.70409375000003,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.49659375000005,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.50034375,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.02659375,"end":282.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.07096875,"end":297.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.88784375,"end":295.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.64284375,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.97971875,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.54034375000003,"end":304.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.57909375,"end":329.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.49846875000003,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.57846875,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.57409375000003,"end":333.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.32909375,"end":335.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.42159375,"end":338.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.71221875000003,"end":349.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.93409375000005,"end":355.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.02596875,"end":362.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.65784375000004,"end":365.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.86409375000005,"end":380.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.84909375,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.96721875000003,"end":381.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.33846875,"end":381.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.74346875000003,"end":381.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.86159375,"end":386.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.94596875,"end":382.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.51471875000004,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.73409375,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.03346875,"end":391.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.26096875,"end":397.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.53846875000005,"end":406.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.73659375000005,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.05596875000003,"end":409.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.38034375,"end":426.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.88409375000003,"end":434.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.68471875,"end":433.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.24159375000005,"end":442.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.42596875000004,"end":450.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.60659375,"end":447.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.49221875,"end":452.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.23034375000003,"end":466.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.92971875,"end":459.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.51971875000004,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.34659375,"end":465.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.10159375,"end":466.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.33784375000005,"end":468.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.51471875000004,"end":469.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.44284375,"end":473.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.84721875,"end":488.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.10659375000006,"end":488.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.68034375,"end":500.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.11346875000004,"end":498.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.25659375000004,"end":503.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.53471875,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.16659375000006,"end":512.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.54159375,"end":514.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.0559687499999,"end":517.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.8572187500001,"end":519.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.9665937500001,"end":522.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.2109687500001,"end":525.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.61971875,"end":533.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.8884687500001,"end":551.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.4765937500001,"end":551.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.1853437500001,"end":551.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.2022187499999,"end":551.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.24846875,"end":552.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.4509687500001,"end":552.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.53534375,"end":577.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.2109687500001,"end":576.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.56096875,"end":581.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.89784375,"end":581.9653437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.875,"end":7.849,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們請速發部黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":16.78,"end":44.567,"text":"部長好部長首先還是要肯定部長在上任之初提出的政策三支箭第一個就是打詐那當然它包含發展數位經濟產業跟數位韌性那我想這個發展數位經濟產業跟數位韌性這當然是這部裡面的一個主要業務但是我想民眾包含說民意代表這邊大家最關心的還是這個打詐的問題因為這個打詐問題其實真的非常嚴重光是這個地方的警察局地方派出所"},{"start":45.607,"end":56.917,"text":"在我選區裡面派出所剛好這兩天要來質詢我了解一下實務狀況派出所大概每天每天喔每一個派出所大概可以收到5到6件詐騙的這個"},{"start":58.356,"end":81.122,"text":"的這個通報或者報案這個是有案的有的可能被騙還不知道沒有來報案的光是每天就有5到6案這個這個這個案子所以去詐騙自己對於臺灣的這個民生經濟影響非常非常重大好那我想部長你剛上任啊也不能太太苛求但是我想讓你知道個數字有一個媒體可能晚一點會做出會公告有個民調講說"},{"start":82.962,"end":103.884,"text":"對於這個新政府會激起打擊詐騙請問您對政府打擊詐騙有沒有信心不太有信心跟很沒有信心的比例不太有信心的17%很沒有信心的31%所以沒有信心的部分合體起來大概48%我想問一下部長你對於這樣的數字有什麼樣的感想或對未來的施政有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":104.189,"end":119.189,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":119.189,"end":119.209,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":142.705,"end":159.514,"text":"議員．"},{"start":159.594,"end":186.948,"text":"我也是肯定這樣的做法但是我要問部長一件事情現在就已經有內政部警政署的165全民防騙網的這個這樣的功能那這個165全民防騙網跟你即將推出的打詐通報查詢網這之間有什麼關聯性或者是這兩個東西會不會又跌床架屋因為你要推出一個新的打詐通報查詢網你還要再過三個月那我們現在就有165全民防騙網當然是不同的部門但對民眾來講"},{"start":188.189,"end":211.655,"text":"我只要有詐騙相關的訊息我希望有一個單一的管道不管是查詢也好通報也好或是我去各種新的詐騙資訊也好民眾的出發的觀點是希望說我就一個網站或是一個窗口了解就好我不需要有這麼多網站所以我想問一下部長到底這個打詐通報查詢網跟這165全民防騙網未來是要整合呢還是會有兩個網站的存在"},{"start":212.855,"end":238.473,"text":"報告委員那個你看這個就講很清楚是我已經覺得這個訊息是詐騙或是我已經被騙了我在這邊報案那剛剛我們這邊是說你收到的訊息你不確定的時候你可以先到我們這個網站來查這個是不是可能的詐騙而不是說我已經知道他是詐騙我要來檢舉我想這有個差異那也就是讓民眾收到訊息的時候他有個方式先來了解我現在收到訊息到底可不可以信"},{"start":239.593,"end":259.723,"text":"這個是這個是我們這個這個而且我們這個查詢網會連結各個部位當然我們也會連結警政署的這個單位就是說我們已經看到這個訊息經過AI的偵測確定可能是一個詐騙訊息不需要民眾自動包含我們這邊就把我們看到的訊息通報給你部長你的意思是說你們推動的打大通報查詢網是屬於進行中的狀態"},{"start":261.083,"end":276.286,"text":"165全民防騙網查到訊息以確定狀態是這意思嗎?就是說民眾已經決定已經知道民眾已經判斷知道是詐騙或者是他已經被騙了他來這邊做我不能說你沒做事但是我還是要拜託一下其實對民眾對我來講對本席來說這個詐騙問題如果你能夠整合我覺得是對民眾來講這個是比較方便你不要說"},{"start":284.348,"end":309.171,"text":"講真的因為現在165全民防騙網已經推一段時間了大家有些想法跟資訊他一定是先上165去查詢不會去上打造通報查詢網來查詢現階段是這樣子當然我們希望一個網站裡面就能夠我們是一個入口啦portal啦會連接到各個單位的我當然希望你要做到是說不要有這麼多的版本就是就像部長剛剛提到的這個打造通報查詢網是進行中可能潛在的狀況"},{"start":310.672,"end":337.265,"text":"一六五是已經確定了但對我來講或對民眾或對任何一個資訊有落差的人來講他要相信政府他上網查他就是要得到一個可能存在答案嘛你不要說還分兩個我這個上一六五查不到我再上打造通報找找查查看我希望這個事情是能夠結合在一起的我們會整合部長可以嗎可以我們會整合你們會跟內政部主管整合吧對會好那再來剛剛提到這個這個前面也有很多委員提到包含說名人詐騙的問題"},{"start":338.786,"end":354.839,"text":"這件事情就這樣當初在推所謂的電子簽章法的時候當時的數位也是跟我們承諾說推動電子簽章法之後未來能夠減少這種名人冒名詐騙的問題那到底電子簽章法已經正式三讀通過之後到底能不能做到所謂防止名人詐騙的問題"},{"start":356.252,"end":371.81,"text":"電子簽證法讓我們有個機制能夠做數位簽章來做就確認是KYC可是那個剛剛講我像比如說網告平台商他要不要用數位簽章需要另一個法來要求他們一定要做這個事情那這個法就是我們現在在進行的打詐裝法"},{"start":372.662,"end":386.577,"text":"那這個如果通過的話他必須廣告必須要做實名制那實名制一個方法就是用電子簽方數位簽章來做認證這個是一個方法那這個罰你是罰這個廣告商還是罰平台業者"},{"start":388.66,"end":407.564,"text":"對,這個我們如果...推動了新的法律你要罰的是誰?對,他如果沒有配合我們做這個剛講打詐的話平台上是要被罰對,沒錯所以未來有機會因為我很期待說什麼時候你去罰包括Facebook也好Google也好這些跨國公司因為他們在台灣到目前為止這麼詐騙案例這麼氾濫"},{"start":410.345,"end":433.292,"text":"不管臉書也好、LINE也好、Google也好他們是主要的詐騙的平台當然你要罰內容產製者是沒問題但是我要問的是說這些平台他到底有沒有義務去規範那他如果沒有達到我們法律要求他們有去規範那我們的政府什麼時候才會對Facebook也好或對Google或對YouTube或對LINE也好開出第一張罰單目前有開過罰單嗎目前都沒有嘛"},{"start":434.592,"end":452.07,"text":"打詐裝法通過我們就可以他如果沒有配合做剛剛講這些事情配合下架或者處理或是他沒有做KYC沒有做這個實名制的認證的話我們就可以給他裁法對阿這個當然要還是要有法所以法的部分就是剛剛講的打詐裝法通過之後我們會做這個事情"},{"start":452.29,"end":466.455,"text":"好部長所以打造專法通過之後包含Facebook這個公司他也會在你們的裁罰範圍裡面不會只有什麼平台業不會只有所謂的代理商廣告業者被罰連這個平台本身都被罰嗎?對對對好部長那最後一個問題"},{"start":469.517,"end":488.62,"text":"這個你在捲包裡面提到所謂的這個第三方支付也是你們的管制的這個目標但是因為第三方支付跟電子支付不一樣電子支付有金管會的問金管會要認證才有電子支付第三方支付平台他是很多很多有幾千間幾百間這個平台業者是所有的你們都有能力能量去追查嗎還是要透過其他方式"},{"start":489.1,"end":514.142,"text":"我們已經在第三次已經實施比如說那個能量登錄能量登錄已經讓我們這1萬多家登記的第三次現在只有53家通過就是說我們可以集中管理這53家那沒登錄怎麼辦我現在其實問題就是說因為登錄很少他沒有那個經過我們能量登錄的人他在銀行就沒辦法拿到所謂的帳號也就是說金管會金融單位根本就是說會排除這些金融單位要給"},{"start":515.383,"end":538.706,"text":"這個第三方支付的業者的所謂的虛擬帳號必須是有能量登錄過的人那能量過的人他要做什麼事情他要確認他來登廣告或是他要申請這個虛擬帳號的人必須是實名制也就是說他必須是真正的所以就是這個讓很多詐騙的人不敢再就沒有辦法再通過我們認證過的53家的這個第三方支付去要拿到所謂的虛擬帳號"},{"start":539.787,"end":555.119,"text":"於這個方式來斷絕這些剛才講過去的一些網絡詐騙那從這樣的一個歷史我們已經看到這個詐騙數目相加了非常多從以前一個多月的是這個你不可以補充一下這個數字第三方之後這個也要謝謝金管會他主導都虛擬帳號那現在他"},{"start":557.361,"end":557.601,"text":"黃健豪委員"}]}},{"id":"153022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b36b2cef5dfe2a7181442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e631f549cd42930205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:15:09 - 11:22:05","影片長度":"00:06:56","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":416,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:22:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:15:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時15分）主席好。請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。首先先恭喜黃部長上任了，期待部長可以重建數發部成立的價值，因為數發部成立還不到兩年，但已經讓很多國人從期待變失望，從過去的期望演變成失望，前面很多委員都提到詐騙已經是高民怨了，部長的報告中也提到了要打詐，先從打詐給民眾一個安心，無論是行政院還是黃部長都有推新的措施，都是希望可以改善過去的打詐成果。第一支箭，推動打詐的工作將設置打詐通報查詢網，請問部長何時可以檢視成效？"],["黃部長彥男：現在預定是三個月。"],["邱委員若華：三個月是建置，我想要請問……"],["黃部長彥男：成效？"],["邱委員若華：對。"],["黃部長彥男：預計成效，是不是請次長可以回答一下？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，我們要成立打詐通報查詢網，因為這個目標算是滿大的，我們會分階段施行，剛開始我們會集中在幾個部分，第一個部分就是一些公眾人物的身分被假冒，然後有一些詐騙的廣告，這是第一部分；第二個部分是很多假冒政府單位的訊息……"],["邱委員若華：公眾人物的假冒是指廣告嗎？商業廣告？"],["林次長宜敬：對，就是投資詐騙廣告，就像謝金河先生常常就是……"],["邱委員若華：所以這是短期，中期跟長期的計畫呢？"],["林次長宜敬：短期的話，我們會先用人工來處理，等我們熟悉這個處理的流程之後，我們就會漸漸轉為用科技的手段，用科技來對付科技詐騙，用AI來對付AI的詐騙，這是我們中長期的計畫。"],["邱委員若華：我剛才有聽到部長說跟Whoscall過去也有做……"],["黃部長彥男：對，報告委員，因為現在民間技術滿多，也滿進步的，所以將來我是希望這是一個整合，就是剛剛講到的，電信公司有些防詐、堵詐的方法，然後Whoscall，還有金融單位也有一些方法，我們都會試著把它整合進來。"],["邱委員若華：我相信很多民眾都有下載，包括我在內，包括在座各位也都有下載Whoscall。為什麼民間可以做到，我們政府或是數發部做不到呢？因為數發部的感覺起來像是被動式的，Whoscall是主動，只要我們接到電話，就可以看到是誰來電，那為什麼我們不能？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，Whoscall主要是電話，但是我們現在很多詐騙的訊息是來自比如LINE或是來自Facebook，這些……"],["邱委員若華：沒有跨部會的合作嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：不，那部分像Whoscall可能暫時……我們希望有一個東西，不管是哪個管道進來訊息，能夠把它po在我們這樣的一個服務網，可以協助來判斷這樣的訊息是不是可能詐騙，所以會大於只是電話的偵測。"],["邱委員若華：OK。剛才提到的強化模組是什麼意思？"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，因為詐騙有不同的樣態，Whoscall因為過去我們在這樣的業務討論上面，它也會持續去做研發，所以詐騙有時候新的模態，譬如剛剛前面幾位委員，有一位舉的就是謝金河先生，以前都是名字，那它就會轉成不是名字了，可能是謝社長，但是是他的圖像，這個都是要透過科技的方式讓我們在後臺處理的時候，抓得到這個其實也是假冒，因為這算名人，一般人看到，自己就會映射，知道這是謝社長的人。這些都是模組上，在AI訓練model的時候都會用到。我們剛剛講到跟Whoscall，它就持續去做研發，另外像幾個電信業者，他們也會做這樣的研發，這種東西有點像雞尾酒療法，大家都盡它的能力，以上，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，我們主要是希望數發部有積極作為，讓民眾有感。"],["呂署長正華：好，謝謝委員，我們會努力，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：因為過去大家一直都說為什麼不能從源頭落實，很多民眾都不解，包括我們委員在內。在我們桃園，張善政市長有成立打詐桃園隊，儘管再怎麼努力，成功攔截很多重大詐騙案，但是風氣還是沒有辦法遏止。請問部長有什麼治本的政策，以及如何跟各地方政府合作？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，前面我也說明過，就是詐騙管道太多，而且一直推陳出新，所以完全堵到詐騙的訊息是很難，當然我們儘量努力，包含剛才講的打詐通報查詢網，也是為了儘量去阻擋，但是我覺得最後結果還是希望提升民眾識詐的能力，看了以後能夠知道這是一個詐騙，這個方法可以從剛才講的打詐通報查詢網去問以外，另外就是我們會推動像短碼……"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，部長，還是請數發部從源頭這方面去努力。"],["黃部長彥男：對，源頭，我知道。源頭的資訊，我們剛剛講很多東西，我們自動scan以後自動發現，就是去看能不能阻擋一些訊息的傳入，包括電話或者是各種訊息，這是一個源頭，但是我要講的是，因為源頭太多種管道，現在網路通訊太多……"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，部長。我接下來要請問部長，部長與國發會合作設置AI生態園區，要扶植AI新創，還有吸引投資，要打造我們臺版的AI矽谷，希望也是在同樣三個月內提出計畫，我們桃園市政府也正在爭取推動AI的應用，還有引導新創產業的進駐。我們地方資源有限，必須要中央的協助，相信部長清楚桃園有很多重點的科技產業，部長就這方面可以提供協助嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我想我們可以跟桃園有些密切合作沒問題，就是……"],["邱委員若華：希望可以把桃園納入計畫的重點區，這個可以再提供給我書面報告嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們再來討論，我們可能會再去拜訪桃園市，瞭解桃園市一些關於這個計畫的細節，看怎麼跟中央配合，或中央怎麼協助來讓桃園這樣的發展能夠符合我們說的AI島，或是AI整個生態園區的一個規劃，我想這個細節，我們可以再多點瞭解。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝部長。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：邱委員發言完畢。","現在請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.22034375,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.684093750000001,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.04159375,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.125968750000002,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.58159375,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.29221875,"end":31.317218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.55346875,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.883468750000006,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.009718750000005,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.220343750000005,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.81096875,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.30034375,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.877843750000004,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.22346875000001,"end":65.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.75471875000001,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.07159375,"end":95.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.04159375,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.01159375,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.84221875,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.40721875000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.96971875000001,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.30659375,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.12909375,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.78096875,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.32034375,"end":146.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.23159375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.56846875000002,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.13346875000002,"end":154.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.10346875000002,"end":162.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.87534375,"end":159.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.94221875000002,"end":162.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.39784375000002,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.63409375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.25846875000002,"end":170.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.23659375,"end":169.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.67096875000001,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.82284375,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.86471875,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.61471875,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.28534375,"end":191.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.54534375,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.47659375,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.29034375,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.82159375,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.04096875000002,"end":271.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.86221875,"end":288.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.58721875000003,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.86346875000004,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.78221875,"end":296.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.44034375,"end":299.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.95909375,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.86596875000004,"end":321.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.36471875,"end":331.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.05096875000004,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.05471875,"end":350.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.13034375,"end":336.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.40221875000003,"end":355.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.60846875000004,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.91596875000005,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.69159375000004,"end":362.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.18909375000004,"end":370.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.31471875,"end":372.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.76596875,"end":376.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.36034375,"end":382.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.46909375,"end":382.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.48596875000004,"end":382.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.50284375,"end":386.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.97909375,"end":392.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.35409375,"end":413.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.21534375000005,"end":414.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.68784375,"end":414.46409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.44,"end":5.885,"text":"主席好 請黃部長 請黃部長"},{"start":13.075,"end":36.825,"text":"委員好部長好首先先恭喜黃部長上任期待部長可以重建數發部成立的價值因為數發部成立不到成立還不到兩年但已經讓很多國人從期待變到失望從過去的期望演變成失望那前面很多委員都提到詐騙已經是高民怨了那部長的報告中也提到了"},{"start":37.225,"end":62.697,"text":"要打詐先從打詐給民眾一個安心無論是行政院還是黃部長都有推新的措施都是希望可以改善過去的打詐成果那第一支箭推動打詐工作將設置打詐通報查詢網請問部長何時可以檢視這個成效現在預定是三個月三個月是建制那我想請問就是成效對這個次長是不是可以回答未計成效我們這個"},{"start":66.892,"end":90.472,"text":"報告委員我們這個要成立這個打詐通報查詢網那個因為這個的目標算是蠻大的我們會分階段實行那我們剛開始我們會集中在幾個部分第一個部分就是一些公眾人物他的身份被假冒然後有一些詐騙的廣告這是第一部分那第二個部分呢是很多那種假冒政府單位的訊息"},{"start":91.072,"end":116.368,"text":"公眾人物的假冒是指廣告嗎?商業廣告?對,就是那個投資詐騙廣告就像那個謝金河先生他常常就是就是短期那中期跟長期的計畫呢?我們剛開始短期的話我們先會用人工來處理等我們熟悉這個處理的流程之後呢那我們就會漸漸轉為用科技的手段用科技來對付科技詐騙"},{"start":117.208,"end":126.955,"text":"用AI來對付AI的那個詐騙這是我們中長期的計畫那我剛才有聽到部長有說跟Who's Call也有做過去也有做"},{"start":128.334,"end":150.857,"text":"對那個報告委員對我們跟因為這個現在民間技術也蠻多也蠻進步的所以我們也將來我是希望這是一個整合啦就是說我們會剛剛講電信公司有些有些這個這個防詐和堵詐的方法然後還有一些金融單位也有一些方法我們都會試著把它整合進來這樣"},{"start":151.618,"end":180.885,"text":"我相信很多民眾都有下載包括我在內海小屋包括在座的很多就是在座各位都也有下載Who's Call嗎那為什麼民間可以做到我們政府還有速發部做不到的因為這個速發部的感覺起來像是被動式的Who's Call是主動只要我們接到電話就可以看到是誰來電那為什麼我們不能報告委員Who's Call主要是電話但是我們現在很多詐騙的訊息來自比如說Line或是來自Facebook那沒有跨部會的合作嗎"},{"start":181.565,"end":196.746,"text":"那部分現在像福斯科可能暫時就就是說我們希望有個東西就是不管你是哪個管道進來訊息能夠把它PO在我們這樣一個服務網然後就可以協助來判斷這樣訊息是不是可能詐騙這樣所以會大於只是電話的偵測"},{"start":199.48,"end":202.262,"text":"那剛才提到的強化模組是什麼意思?強化模組跟委員報告齁就是因為詐騙這個有不同的樣態嘛按夫斯科因為過去我們在這樣的業務討論上面他也會持續去做研發所以呢诶詐騙有時候新的模態譬如說剛剛前面幾位委員有一位舉的就是這個謝金河先生嘛他以前都是名子"},{"start":227.699,"end":250.422,"text":"那他就會轉成說就不是名字了,可能是謝社長但是他的圖像那這個都是要透過科技的方式讓這個我們在後台處理的時候抓得到說這個其實也是假冒因為一般人因為這是名人嘛看起來就知道這個是就自己會映射成一些就知道是謝社長的人"},{"start":252.003,"end":273.085,"text":"那這些都是模組上他在AI訓練model的時候都會用到那我們其實跟剛剛講跟FoodCore他就持續去做研發那另外呢像幾個電信業者因為他們也會做這樣的研發然後大家這種都是有點像機位酒料法大家都盡他的能力 沒關係那我們是希望那個數發部主要有自己作為讓民眾有感"},{"start":274.926,"end":295.251,"text":"謝謝委員我們會努力因為過去一直大家都說都會在想為什麼不能從源頭落實啊很多民眾都不解那包括我們委員在內那在我們桃園我們市長張先生市長成立打造桃園隊那儘管再怎麼努力啊成功的攔截很多重大詐騙案但是風氣還是沒有辦法克制就不知道有什麼資本的政策"},{"start":296.471,"end":296.672,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":316.164,"end":332.283,"text":"但是呢我覺得最後結果還是希望我們提升民眾視詐的能力就是說能夠能夠看了以後能夠知道說這是一個詐騙那這個方法可以從剛講這個達照通報查詢網去問以外另外就是說我們會推動向短短馬現在部長還是請署發部從源頭的這方面對對源頭我知道就源頭就說源頭的資訊"},{"start":337.148,"end":337.268,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":357.961,"end":382.072,"text":"部長與國發為合作設置AI生態園區要扶植AI新創還有投資還有吸引投資要打造打造我們台版的AI矽谷那希望也是在同樣3個月內提出計劃那我們桃園市政府也有正在爭取推動AI的應用還有引導新創產業的進駐那我們地方資源有限必須要中央的協助相信部長清楚桃園有很多重點的科技產業那部長這方面可以提供"},{"start":382.852,"end":403.971,"text":"我想我們可以跟桃園的有些密切合作沒問題就是希望可以把桃園納入計畫的重點區這個要提供我想我們在在在我們會去會接再再去可能去拜訪桃園市的一些就是關於這個計畫的細節好看怎麼跟中央配合或中怎麼協助來讓桃園將能夠發展能夠"},{"start":405.092,"end":405.352,"text":"好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3404a83f77eaa36a9442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9eae85f944ae0b922b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:05:16 - 11:15:02","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":586,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:15:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:05:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時5分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許委員智傑：部長好，我請教一下，那一天部長到我辦公室，事實上我一直在想詐騙集團要怎麼樣去防堵，當然詐騙集團本來不見得是數位部的工作，但是因為很多新的科技，數位部可能在這部分會比其他單位都還要強一點，所以是不是數位部可以用你的專業，然後來幫助警政署或者是電信公司或者是NCC做一個平行的溝通，看怎麼樣去創造一個防止詐騙集團，可以讓數位部有所發揮的空間，這個部分不知道部長有想到方法了沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：跟委員報告，我提過我們有個打詐通報查詢網，就在最源頭讓民眾或者我們自己去網路掃描，發現可疑的訊息，我們就會很快速地跟其他部會做溝通，會把訊息pass給他們做即時的處理。"],["許委員智傑：所以就是說要怎麼去發現這個可能是詐騙的電話，或者可能是詐騙的網路？"],["黃部長彥男：一種當然是民眾主動把他看到的東西po在我們的查詢網，我們會去查包括電話的來源、網址或是銀行的帳號等等，還有訊息的內容。另外，我們當然也會去網路上爬一些比如剛剛講的臉書，就是平常會看到很多詐騙訊息的地方。"],["許委員智傑：針對民眾檢舉或者是去爬臉書，這個當然都是很重要的工作，不過這個其實有一點是事倍功半，所以我上一次有跟部長提到，你去看一般的商業模式，比如說B2B、B2C、C2B、C2C等等的這些商業模式，現在詐騙集團要去詐騙，也有他詐騙集團的商業模式。"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["許委員智傑：其實我跟部長提過了，這個部分比如說現在的中華電信、三大電信，我們來看防詐的APP，我記得數位部好像有提到說你們自己也會發展一個防詐的app，部長你當時還沒到，不知道裡面有沒有人瞭解數位部是不是有在規劃這個防詐電話的app？"],["黃部長彥男：電話主要還是在電信公司，我們知道比如像中華電信有一個防詐的服務，它已經擋掉百分之九十幾……"],["許委員智傑：現在那個Whoscall也是民間公司，事實上它是免費的。"],["黃部長彥男：Whoscall有跟我們談過好幾次。"],["許委員智傑：然後台灣大哥大有一個反詐戰警，它也是免費的。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["許委員智傑：其他的中華電跟遠傳，好像是都要收費？"],["黃部長彥男：中華電信要收費應該……"],["許委員智傑：然後我們自己的……我記得當時數位部有跟我提過說你們自己也想要努力，類似這樣子防詐的戰警，就是去攔截……因為現在就是說，被電話詐騙的，大部分都比較是老人或是比較弱勢的，當然很多人真的都接過詐騙的電話，我覺得如果先把……網路其實無遠弗屆，而且網路廣告有時候你沒辦法100%……你去爬臉書也不容易通通讓你發現，但是我覺得如果防詐電話可以處理的話，從源頭來管理，不要只是末端的管理，也許這是一個好的方向。"],["黃部長彥男：對，同意，是不是請呂署長就這方面再做補充？"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員讓我們有補充說明的機會。委員剛剛提到的，之前的確有這樣的討論，不過因為像Whoscall它就自己搞得很好，所以我們就跟他協作，就是有這個需求就請Whoscall再多強化它的模組。另外，剛剛委員提到台哥大有一個防詐戰警，它有來申請我們的AI領航計畫，這個就是研發的部分，透過數據的分析，你現在打進來，有時候那個量突然增多……"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，它怎麼做都沒關係，我現在問的是數位部有打算要做嗎？"],["呂署長正華：因為這種民間的創意比我們多，所以我們是用協作的方式，我們現在用的打詐查詢網，這個是我們自己做的，其他的那時候有討論，大概是回到民間的創意，然後去做研發補助。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係啦！我的意思就是說你要去想前端跟後端，後端像app，這些都是我要自己download下來，自己安裝上去，我才會有這個功能，這個功能不同的電信公司或者是民間公司他們都會去規劃設計。那我們處理末端的部分就是說，我們也希望數位部可以幫忙，這不是你的工作，但是數位部為什麼人家一直去質疑說數位部的工作成效不彰，就是因為你做的事情沒有去凸顯出來，今天如果因為你的數位專業可以去幫忙的話，也許你幫了以後，人家才發現數位部做的事情真的值得被大家誇獎，所以這個才能夠凸顯……現在詐騙電話這麼多，我們把詐騙電話先堵掉，至少堵掉大部分，你沒有辦法100%，至少堵掉大部分，所以就這個防詐的app，是不是數位部可以做一個統整，跟各電信公司也好，民間公司也好，在末端這裡，每一個人輸入之後就可以去預防詐騙電話，這個部分是不是數位部可以有這個規劃？"],["黃部長彥男：可以，基本上剛剛講的打詐通報查詢網就是相當於一個入口，能夠……"],["許委員智傑：所以數位部可以去統整、整合，做出一個末端的防堵系統就對了？"],["黃部長彥男：讓很多系統可以交互交叉比對。"],["許委員智傑：就是在末端這邊，數位部努力一下，瞭解各個不同的單位，能夠做一個末端的防堵、防詐的工作。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["許委員智傑：這個部分OK，要做，前端的也要做。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["許委員智傑：前端的就是說，其實我一直去研究商業模式跟詐騙模式，如果都是B2C的話，事實上現在的電信公司都是B2C，把電信公司當作一個單位，詐騙集團也是一個企業單位，他這個企業單位去針對每一個個人，他就是這樣一直打嘛！如果你可以在電信公司或者是我們整體設一個hub，這個hub就是說你今天是B2B，再2C嘛！那你這個B就可以說所有的電話來，比如說海外電話，一天打臺灣10通以上的海外電話，這個可能就有問題，那我如果用室內電話一天打超過30通，比如民意代表服務處或者是企業單位、業務單位，這個就很正常，那這個就會登錄說這個是正常的電話號碼，如果是一般沒有登錄過的電話號碼，突然有這樣子的現象發生，就有可能是詐騙電話。那你們如果有一個程式來協助三大電信公司跟NCC來處理，那就有可能在前端就可以擋掉，或是可以事先偵測到這可能是詐騙電話，所以你可以從末端、從前端這兩個角度去做思考，看我們是不是有機會把電話詐騙減少掉大部分。"],["黃部長彥男：前端這邊如果跟電信公司合作，我們會跟NCC合作，就是剛才委員講的這種方法，異常偵測會……"],["許委員智傑：我現在就是先提出這個概念，希望數位部可以去幫忙做這個部分的整合，用你們的專業看怎麼樣去處理，因為電信公司可能也沒想到啦！NCC我們跟他要求了，現在是末端，前端NCC可能也不見得有這個能力，那前端這個部分正好是數位部你們的專業。"],["黃部長彥男：我們可以整合現在我們在進行的打詐通訊網，去整合這樣的一個能力，能夠把……"],["許委員智傑：我以後會再問，希望這個部分我都能夠看到數位部有進度，我們的電話詐騙如果能減少到90%以上、95%以上，這真的是功德無量，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["許委員智傑：希望數位部在這一部分多做努力。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們會努力，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：許委員發言完畢。","現在請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.37659375,"end":2.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.941593750000001,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.66284375,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.622218750000002,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.723468750000002,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.78659375,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.59971875,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.67846875000001,"end":69.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.12971875000001,"end":72.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.28971875,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.24159375,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.21096875,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.74596875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.71409375,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.98721875000001,"end":119.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.34971875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.42971875,"end":124.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.24346875,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.60971875,"end":130.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.96409375000002,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.09034375000002,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.68034375000002,"end":146.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.04596875000001,"end":149.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.47596875000002,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.86409375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.71971875,"end":163.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.51596875,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.33784375000002,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.96971875,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.97784375,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.58784375000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.32596875000002,"end":192.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.95034375,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.55346875,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.40096875,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.88596875000002,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.10034375,"end":204.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.70784375000002,"end":208.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.17971875,"end":211.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.49596875,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.93284375000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.75909375,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.33971875,"end":248.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.46471875,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.18909375000004,"end":260.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.20534375,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.99721875,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.53784375000004,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.11159375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.16221875,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.26346875,"end":294.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.17471875,"end":295.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.67221875,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.53159375,"end":306.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.63284375,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.04971875,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.13409375000003,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.34034375000005,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.31471875,"end":320.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.02721875000003,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.77784375000005,"end":325.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.83659375,"end":330.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.91596875000005,"end":336.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.05846875000003,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.95284375,"end":344.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.92221875,"end":345.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.10784375000003,"end":351.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.29659375,"end":355.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.77284375000005,"end":359.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.97471875,"end":365.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.81346875,"end":372.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.10346875000005,"end":382.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.95846875,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.26034375,"end":395.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.32784375,"end":402.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.34784375000004,"end":403.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.38159375000004,"end":411.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.65534375000004,"end":406.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.30909375000005,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.80221875,"end":414.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.65409375,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.67471875,"end":416.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.85159375,"end":419.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.32659375000003,"end":461.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.61284375,"end":461.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.83221875000004,"end":467.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.16034375000004,"end":470.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.01221875000005,"end":471.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.56909375000004,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.56846875,"end":484.34346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.34346875000006,"end":484.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.91721875,"end":491.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.66721875,"end":493.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.91159375,"end":503.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.67784375,"end":506.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.34409375,"end":508.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.49159375000005,"end":509.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.39846875,"end":513.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.85784375,"end":523.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.0672187499999,"end":524.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.26971875,"end":534.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.09096875,"end":536.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.3859687500001,"end":536.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.4197187500001,"end":538.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.6472187500001,"end":539.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.5247187500001,"end":548.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.02534375,"end":553.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.1047187500001,"end":557.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.9184687500001,"end":566.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.1028437500001,"end":571.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.95909375,"end":569.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.7390937499999,"end":571.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.8234687500001,"end":578.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.7253437500001,"end":579.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.96159375,"end":581.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.50159375,"end":580.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.7122187500001,"end":583.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.91034375,"end":583.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.3659687500001,"end":583.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.5009687500001,"end":583.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.0747187500001,"end":586.09971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.519,"end":6.181,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長請部長"},{"start":25.374,"end":38.192,"text":"請教一下那一天部長到我辦公室事實上我一直在想這個詐騙集團要怎麼樣去防堵啦那當然詐騙集團本來不見得是蘇衛部的工作啦"},{"start":39.013,"end":67.7,"text":"但是呢用很多新的科技可能就是數位部可能這部分會比其他單位都還要強一點所以是不是數位部可以用你的專業然後來幫助可能警政署或者是電信公司或者是NCC做一個平行的溝通那怎麼樣去創造一個防止詐騙集團可以讓數位部有所發揮的空間"},{"start":68.72,"end":95.138,"text":"好那這個部分不知道部長有想到方法來沒有?對這個跟委員報告我只有提過就是我們有個打詐通報查詢網就在最源頭就讓民眾或是我們自己去網路去scan去掃描發現可疑的那個訊息我們就會很快速的跟其他部會做溝通會把訊息pass給他們做即時的處理所以就是說你要怎麼去發現這個可能是詐騙的電話或者是可能是詐騙的網路"},{"start":95.879,"end":118.027,"text":"民眾當然是民眾主動把它看到的東西PO在我們的那個查詢網號我們會去查這個包括電話的來源網址或是銀行的帳號等等等等還有訊息的內容另外一個當然就是我們也會去網路上去爬可能看到的一些尤其像比如說剛剛講臉書這種就是平常看到很多的詐騙的訊息的地方這樣這個針對民眾"},{"start":121.584,"end":136.871,"text":"檢舉或者是去爬臉書這個當然都是很重要的工作不過這個其實有一點是事備公辦所以我上一次有跟部長提到就是說其實你去看一般的商業模式"},{"start":137.891,"end":159.222,"text":"拜託他B2B啦B2C啦C2B啦C2C等等的這些商業模式現在詐騙集團要去詐騙也有他詐騙集團的商業模式所以其實我跟部長提過的就是說這個部分比如說現在中華電信跟三大電信我們來看那個防詐的那個"},{"start":160.542,"end":176.982,"text":"我記得那個數位部好像有提到說他們你們自己也會發展一個防炸的APP這個部長當時還沒到不知道裡面有沒有人了解說數位部是不是有在規劃這一個部分防炸電話的APP"},{"start":178.758,"end":203.59,"text":"電話是主要還是在那個電信公司嗎?那我們知道就像比如說中華電信他也有一個防詐的一個服務他已經擋掉百分之九十幾現在那個Who's Call啦對 Who's Call也是那個是民間公司嘛事實上他是免費的嘛Who's Call有跟我們談過好幾次然後那個台灣大哥帶有一個反詐戰警對他也是免費的嘛對對"},{"start":204.827,"end":226.531,"text":"那其他的中華電信跟遠傳的好像是都要收費中華電信要收費應該然後我們自己的我記得當時數位部有跟我提過說你們自己也想要努力就類似一個這樣子一個防詐的戰警就是去攔截因為現在就是說"},{"start":227.813,"end":256.671,"text":"被電話詐騙的大部分都是比較老人還是比較弱勢啦那當然其實很多人真的是都受過詐騙的電話我覺得你如果先把網路的其實無影弗屆而且網路廣告有時候你沒有100%你靠去爬書的也不容易通通讓你發現啦但是我覺得這個電話如果防詐電話可以處理的話從源頭來管理不要只是末端的管理也許這是一個好的方向"},{"start":257.722,"end":278.252,"text":"對,同意不施請那個呂署長在這方面再做補充謝謝委員讓我們有補充說明的機會那委員剛剛提到之前大概就有這樣的討論不過因為像富士庫他就自己不太好嘛所以我們就跟他協作這種有這個需求就請富士庫再把它多強化他的模組另外剛剛委員提到台灣"},{"start":279.352,"end":286.317,"text":"台灣有一個防炸戰警他有來簽我們的AI領航計劃這就是研發的部分透過數據的分析把AI你現在卡進來有時候那個量突然增多他怎麼做我們沒關係我們現在說我們數位部有發生在做"},{"start":298.386,"end":322.29,"text":"現在因為這種民間的創意比我們多所以我們是用協作的方式我們現在是用打造查詢網這個我們就自己做除了那個時候大概有這樣的討論大概回到民間的創意然後去做研發補助這樣沒關係啦我的意思就是說你要去想前端跟後端嘛那你後端就是說像APP這些都是我"},{"start":323.817,"end":351.145,"text":"我要自己那個download下來自己安裝上去我才會有這個功能嘛那這個功能當然就是說不同的電信公司或者是民間公司他們都會去規劃設計嘛那我們處理末端的這個部分就是說我們也希望說數位部可以幫忙啦這不是你的工作啦但是數位部為什麼人家一直去質疑說數位部的工作成效不髒"},{"start":352.369,"end":381.795,"text":"好,就是說因為你做的事情沒有去凸顯出來嘛那你今天如果是因為你的數位專業可以去幫忙的話也許你幫了以後人家會發現啊數位部真的做這事情真的大家惹怒了所以這個才能夠凸顯就是說現在詐騙電話這麼多啦我們現在就是說我們先把詐騙電話先堵掉至少堵掉大部分啦你沒有辦法100%至少堵掉大部分所以就是就這個防詐的APP是不是數位部可以做一個統整"},{"start":383.015,"end":401.526,"text":"好跟個電信公司也好民間公司也好在末端這裡每一個人你輸入之後你可以去預防這個詐騙電話這個部分是不是數位部可以有這個規劃可以我就是基本上剛講的打炸這個查詢網通報查詢網就是相當一個入口啦portal啦能夠"},{"start":402.606,"end":421.778,"text":"所以可以數位部可以去統整整合做出一個這樣子一個末端的系統的防堵的系統就對了好不好系統可以交互交叉比對就是在末端這邊數位部努力一下啦就了解各個不同的單位嘛能夠做一個末端的防堵防炸的工作好"},{"start":422.378,"end":442.746,"text":"那這個部分OK要做前段的也要做前段的就是說其實我一直去研究就是商業模式跟詐騙模式其實他可能就是如果是都是B to C的話事實上現在的電話電信公司都是B to C嘛我們把電信公司當作一個單位嘛"},{"start":443.266,"end":470.334,"text":"那詐騙集團他也是一個企業單位嘛他這個企業單位去針對每一個個人他就是這樣一直打嘛那如果你如果可以在電信公司或者是我們整體設一個Hub那這個Hub就是說你今天是B2B在吐息嘛那你這個B呢就可以說所有的電話來比如說我從海外電話一天打台灣10通以上的這個海外電話可能就有問題"},{"start":471.616,"end":483.44,"text":"那我如果用室內電話一天打超過30通比如說民力代表服務處啦或者是企業單位他們業務單位這個就很正常那這個會登錄說這是正常的電話號碼嘛"},{"start":484.963,"end":506.39,"text":"阿如果你如果一般的沒有登錄過的電話號碼除了有這樣子一個現象發生可能就有可能是詐騙電話嘛那你們如果說有一個程式你們來協助然後協助這三大電信公司跟NCC來處理這樣子一個program那有可能你就可以在"},{"start":507.423,"end":507.623,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":524.299,"end":537.855,"text":"對,就是前段這邊如果跟電信公司的合作我們會跟NCC合作去去看把委員講這種方法跟這個異常政策會我現在就是先提出這個概念那希望說數位部"},{"start":539.605,"end":557.275,"text":"可以去幫忙做這個部分的整合用你們的專業看怎麼樣去處理因為這個電信公司他要主動想到可能也他也沒想到啦NCC我們剛剛要求的現在是末端前端NCC可能也不見得有這個能力啦那前端這個部分是不是數位部正好是你們的專業"},{"start":558.975,"end":582.626,"text":"我們可以跟他們講就是整合我們現在在進行這些打爆通訊網去整合這樣一個能力能夠把那個我以後會再問啦希望說這個部分我都能夠看到數位部有進度那真的是把我們電話詐騙如果能減少到90%以上95%以上這真的是功德無量好不好希望數位部在這一部分多做努力我們會努力好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c282e302e41a67f25186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e264c4a753c2de6c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:18:21 - 11:25:17","影片長度":"00:06:56","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":416,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:25:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:18:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.88159375,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.708468750000002,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.907843750000005,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.384093750000005,"end":62.789093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.67784375000001,"end":99.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.30659375,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.63471875,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.61721875,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.76409375,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.50221875000001,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.58159375000001,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.97284375,"end":144.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.52971875,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.50346875,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.93784375,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.96659375000002,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.64096875,"end":179.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.39534375000002,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.15471875,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.82534375,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.49971875,"end":240.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.58409375000002,"end":291.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.55909375000005,"end":300.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.23284375000003,"end":320.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.26346875,"end":348.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.32659375000003,"end":357.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.05096875000004,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.56034375,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.57096875,"end":387.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.23659375,"end":392.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.86909375000005,"end":388.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.68721875,"end":391.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.77971875000003,"end":397.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.99409375000005,"end":398.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.01909375,"end":402.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.38159375000004,"end":412.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.52909375,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.98784375,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.96659375,"end":412.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.54846875000004,"end":415.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.982,"end":30.111,"text":"謝謝主席,我請何部長。好,請何部長。部長好。今天其實我們是要聚焦在針對這個巴士良表可不可以開放80歲以上就可以免巴士良表那我剛才看你跟其他委員的答詢,基本上你們是不支持的但是我想請問一下"},{"start":31.651,"end":57.639,"text":"賴清德總統他在選舉的時候針對八十兩表他的政見是依照年齡、身心障礙、重大傷病、罕見疾病、癌症、中風等不同類別建立多元標準。那請問一下,那麼你們不支持八十歲以上免八十兩表,那請問一下,那麼對於總統的政見落實,未來八十兩表要怎麼樣的去改善調整?"},{"start":58.96,"end":74.279,"text":"委員我們不是不支持,其實我非常肯定這個提案的精神。那可是跟委員報告就是說所以我們現在用多元認定來增進那個……好那你要怎麼樣多元認定?"},{"start":74.599,"end":99.462,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":99.602,"end":117.563,"text":"委員已經在做了。去年十月有新增三項多人認證。第一個是長照服務六個月。第二個是輕度失智的。第三個是重度增長啊。好這是新的證件啊。你不要跟我倒退路啊。我們現在是新的總統啊。你是新的部長啊。那幹嘛還要你上任呢?"},{"start":118.744,"end":127.51,"text":"這也是當時賴總統他在重視之後才提出的。 所以你的意思是說就是做到去年十月那個新的政策之後就沒有了?"},{"start":127.51,"end":130.492,"text":"不,我們可以再精進。這個當然趕快告訴我怎麼做。我們可以再精進啦,就是還有什麼可以放寬的喔。哪一項會放寬?"},{"start":130.492,"end":130.512,"text":"我們會來"},{"start":139.217,"end":142.16,"text":"我們會來評估來處理好嗎?然後可以給我們一個授權。 部長,非常失望欸,你現在空話一堆欸。我現在問你要怎麼樣精進法,然後你告訴我去年十月的,那幹嘛還要新的部長呢?"},{"start":142.16,"end":142.54,"text":"對不對?你到現在都沒有任何的具體的東西啊。"},{"start":156.493,"end":179.462,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":179.542,"end":180.903,"text":"議員：王鴻薇議員：王鴻薇"},{"start":209.517,"end":232.766,"text":"請這些看護工事實上是非常非常痛苦我們來看下一頁這個也是當時我們在這個公聽會的時候有一位失能者賴先生說因為他找了外籍看護之後呢不停的就是惡意的這個拉他呀而且造成了他事實上認代拉傷等等簡直是是被虐待喔那他真的覺得說如果政府今天是這樣的話"},{"start":233.806,"end":252.382,"text":"他寧願希望政府開放安樂死他講完之後我們現場很多人都哽咽落淚在前兩天不是也發生一個新聞嗎就是外籍看護工他事實上在虐待一個也是重度智能者的孩子"},{"start":253.543,"end":278.562,"text":"讓他冬天裡面他不能穿衣服然後把他弄到櫃子裡面然後把他在蓋被子以後就對他拳打腳踢如果不是家裡有監視器然後他的父母根本不知道他的孩子是這樣被虐待所以這些失能者他們找看護工非常非常的痛苦但是我們的政府"},{"start":278.962,"end":300.737,"text":"永遠都是這樣我們的外籍看護有人權但是我們的雇主沒有人權我想請問一下像那樣子的一個重度智能的這些兒童在家裡被外籍看護這樣的被虐待然後像這樣的一個賴先生他真的是覺得說有安樂死他就去安樂死了"},{"start":301.237,"end":321.186,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":321.326,"end":348.412,"text":"到這種失能者家庭他就離開那反而造成我們很多失能者家庭的他們的痛苦跟失能者家庭的負擔所以我想請問一下我們移工一戰士父母有沒有可能把他做一個調整不要變成是一個在那邊他受訓了之後還要雇主付錢然後再告訴他要怎麼樣來最後一到雇主家庭他就可以申請移出"},{"start":349.412,"end":350.032,"text":"議員馬文君等20條條文修正草案案案案"},{"start":365.6,"end":366.06,"text":"那我們的僱主有沒有人權呢?"},{"start":366.06,"end":370.642,"text":"那我們的僱主有沒有人權呢?對對當然當然就是說您這一個垂詢的這一個重點我們來檢討好不好就是說他未來他未來是他其實不能隨便轉出捏其實現在是不行的所以他沒有隨便轉出的問題我覺得應該是那個移工訓練啦他的顯然是照顧訓練技巧不足你們一輩子這個世上很多的僱主已經提出很久了就是希望能夠廢除"},{"start":393.11,"end":393.23,"text":"王鴻薇"}]}},{"id":"153019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b315c58e46a204e458fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9ea2435e723b6489915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:13:14 - 11:23:18","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:23:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:13:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請徐次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好！"],["吳委員思瑤：次長早安！大家早安！其實也藉一點點時間，因為剛剛有聆聽到主席的補充意見，本席也是司法及法制委員會的委員，在審查所謂的立法院職權行使法，目前確實只有藍、白的版本被直接交付，可以在院會表決，現在有超過十多萬的公民朋友站上街頭，他們反對的就是這樣一個擴權的、黑箱的、沒有程序正義的法案，事實上，我以司法及法制委員會的參與者、見證人，我想鍾佳濱委員所說是事實，沒有錯誤，在我們這一個會場所討論的國民黨版、民眾黨版的立法院職權行使法確實在吳宗憲委員的主持之下企圖直接將條文保留，沒有經過實質條文的審查，民主進步黨在場一直強調要求實質進入每一個條文的討論，這樣才是民主的審議，也因此為了阻撓這種包裹、直接打包交付協商的濫權及多數暴力行為，我們民進黨才不得已的提出高達四十餘次的散會動議，這是一個事實，我也以一個見證人在此清楚的再一次說明，確實在吳宗憲召委的主持下，企圖要打包、快速協商，沒有任何一個條文進入實質的討論，甚至在召委主持的黨團協商上，68個條文只進行了4個條文，因為在野黨的黨鞭離席，因此主席也宣告就全案包裹交付朝野協商。我在此用了4分鐘的時間，因為事實不容抹滅，事實不容扭曲，真相就是如此，我再一次做補充。","徐次長好，您的經歷非常的有趣，我覺得這是非常豐富的職場訓練，您過去擔任國小教師嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：您認為在您擔任國小教師的整個教育歷程上，到您後來來檢察體系，現在服務於我們的公職，教育對於我們所有的正向意義在哪裡？"],["徐次長錫祥：我想任何一個制度或者是任何一個重要決策，從小訓練我們的新一代是最有希望的作為，因為從小培養好守法的觀念、法制觀念，長大以後，這些都是我們國家的棟梁。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒錯。那您認為人性本善或是人性本惡，就您的教育理念？"],["徐次長錫祥：人性沒有辦法用善惡直接劃定。"],["吳委員思瑤：很好！這是一個好的回答，我也認為每一個人有不同的養成、有不同的社會所給予的能量，但是教育就是一個非常重要的媒介。","我今天要破題的就是我曾經跟蔡清祥部長所質詢過的，因為是新任的部長、次長，我有機會再一次來表達我的關切，就是吳思瑤、本席、我認為每一個人都有他非常良善的本質地方，唯有透過教育及教化可以更加的指引與導引出他的正能量，所以我要就教於您，監獄的友善犬貓計畫到底有沒有可能從蔡清祥部長的say yes，到新任的鄭銘謙部長也能夠持續來推動。","我一直在倡議，包括剛剛質詢的鍾佳濱召委，我們兩個一直在推動監獄友善犬貓，因為矯正、教化受刑人，犬貓can help！協助復歸社會生活，在跟犬貓的共同生活以及訓練相關職能上，也是有很正向的幫助，當然能夠喚醒改悔向上的意念，這都是在各國的案例，包括臺灣的案例，我們觀察到的正面結果。","國際的案例，我不再贅述了，從歐洲到美洲，只要在監獄裡頭有友善的犬貓，都能夠讓凶神惡煞一夕之間成為暖男，去勾出他的人性、人心最柔軟的那個部分，而且養成受刑人的責任感。一樣，美國的華盛頓女子監獄引進友善犬貓的訓練可以讓受刑人學得職能，譬如替犬貓做護理技術、高級美容、服務犬訓練，他們的實行結果是參與計畫者三年內再犯率只有3%，有效的降低再犯率，而且讓這些女子受刑人獲得復歸社會以後的新職能。當然美國的這個四爪監獄計畫，我也再次提供給您，大家可以持續再去做研究。","臺灣也有這樣的計畫，在我們桃園的泰源監獄曾經由受刑人來照顧在泰源監獄四周的流浪貓，藉由照顧流浪貓，收留流浪貓，到最後全數的送養成功，而很多是跟著受刑人回家的，他們都培養出濃厚的感情。同樣的，新竹的監獄犬訓班，這是一個非常好的案例，從2006年到2022年他們創下了47名受刑人成功訓練了84隻流浪犬，事後認養率高達100%，建立起收容人的自我認同、自我價值，也培育了他們新的職能，這是一個好的案例。","上一次我跟鍾佳濱委員非常的湊巧在同一天都拋出同樣的質詢，很快的，我們法務部就直接跟佳濱委員選區的屏科大開始攜手合作了監獄關懷犬的訓練課程，矯正署也一起納入了很多可以做的，雙方應當是簽了一個MOU，那就是一個好的嘗試。臺灣有這樣子的民間學校的訓練也好，或是民間的團體，包括獸醫師公會、很多的動保團體也好，其實我們可以擴大串聯，讓合作的面向更多。我不曉得次長您新任，您對於這個從屏東開始起跑的監獄關懷犬，由屏監帶頭來做的部分，有沒有掌握？有沒有持續擴大推動的計畫？"],["徐次長錫祥：我剛接業務，這個部分我個人當然樂觀其成，但是部裡面目前的規劃可能……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，沒關係，來。"],["徐次長錫祥：不曉得矯正署……"],["吳委員思瑤：矯正署今天有來嗎？沒關係，我跟新任的次長做說明。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我今天再一次把這個issue向新任的次長說明，當然，我原本以為部長會來，沒有關係，一個已經上路的計畫，政策就要延續，而且它是對的政策跟對的方向，我在這裡提點出來幾個要項，讓你們回去進一步精進，我很怕你們有些壓力、有些障礙在，就不敢再推下去了。我提供一些具體的建議，譬如很多監獄友善犬貓，大家都知道它是正面的，但不敢推，是因為現在監獄本身就有超收的問題，所以它的環境、空間難以改善，其實這是可以克服的，犬貓的共處空間有的時候可以透過好的規劃、空間的盤整，是可以獲得改善的，我認為它是一個問題，但不是一個絕對的問題。","第二個，機關人力不足的部分，可以跟民間合作，以及經費編列不足的部分，我提供的建議是，農委會已經升格為農業部，它也成立了專門的動物保護司，所以未來它能夠像我過去在推動校園友善犬貓的經驗一樣，農業部有編列相關的預算，因為它是協助送養、協助訓練，這都有相關的，包括飼料，還有醫療費用的補貼，可以擴大跟農業部來合作。國力有限、民力無窮，只要法務部登高一呼，民間的動保團體、獸醫師公會，大家都願意來協助、進入，提供必要、免費、無償的醫療服務，甚至捐贈善心的飼料、各類的貓罐頭、狗罐頭，這都是可行的。","所以針對超收的問題、空間的問題、經費不足的問題，以及機關人力不足的問題，我都提出一個具體可行的多元方案，希望讓你們能夠從多方面來努力，讓這樣一個好的政策方向，不要因為有這麼多困難、這麼多困境，就不敢大力去推，這樣好嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們會仔細地評估。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。今天不好意思，因為剛剛我占用了4、5分鐘在回應其他的issue，後續我跟鍾佳濱委員會持續推動這個正向能量的監獄關懷犬貓的計畫，我們一起來做，好嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員、謝謝次長。","下一位請林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員。","所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","對於剛剛鍾委員及吳委員有指教本席主持會議的部分，謝謝兩位委員的指教，有關這個部分，主席這邊都是依據程序在依法處理。至於兩位委員指教主席不經討論、不經審查的部分，我想相關的會議過程都有直播上網，至於說法怎麼樣，我就尊重各位委員的說法，但是我比較希望各位委員，我們在進行討論的時候，譬如我們在審查法條的時候，其實討論應該是就條文去討論，但是不管在本委員會討論的時候，或是在院會韓院長讓大家做條文討論的時候，百分之九十以上的時間都沒有人在講法條的內容；百分之九十以上的時間都是在講舔共、抗中保臺，跟某一位委員、傅崐萁委員或誰怎麼樣、過去怎麼樣，或是說什麼毀憲亂政，都在講這些跟條文沒有關係的事情。","我也在這邊呼籲各個委員，我們在審查法條的時候，都有開放時間讓大家做程序發言、大體討論，我們在討論的時候是否應該聚焦在法條的內容？這個才是叫做討論，而不是每一次每位委員發言都是在講毀憲亂政，什麼出賣臺灣、反民主黑箱，都在講這些虛無飄渺的東西。我很在意的是，是不是就條文的內容去討論，所以當有人說，受詢問人到場要請律師的話，要經過主席同意，要求我們說明這個原因是什麼，我非常開心聽到這樣的問題，因為這個就是就條文去討論，我們就可以非常高興、非常快樂地跟大家就條文去討論，但是有百分之九十以上的發言都跟條文無關。我希望各位委員，將來我們在做逐條審查的時候，還是聚焦在條文的內容，而不是在講那些虛無飄渺的護民主、抗中保臺什麼的這些話，因為這個跟條文的審查無關，然後不能說給你發言的時候，你都在講這些，後來又回過頭來說，為什麼不給你時間討論？我沒有辦法理解這個的出發點、邏輯到底是什麼？因為我們念法律，審查法條應該就是就法律、法條去審查。至於是不是違憲、是不是毀憲亂政？你要告訴我是違哪一條憲法，但我到目前為止，千拜託萬拜託大家提出來告訴我，違憲亂政是毀哪一條憲法，我到現在還是聽不到，我也還是聽不到為什麼8年前覺得這個法要立，現在覺得不用立的原因是什麼，我還是聽不到。這部分還是謝謝各位委員對我的指教，我自己有做不好的地方，我會檢討，但如果我認為我自己做的是對的，我會依據我對於議事規則的認識堅持下去。好，謝謝各位。","所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答到這邊結束。委員質詢的時候要求提供的相關資料或書面答復，我們請相關機關儘速交個別委員及本會。傅崐萁委員跟楊瓊瓔委員所提的書面質詢都列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.37659375,"end":4.232843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.98784375,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.92409375,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.24846875,"end":156.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.03596875000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.64534375000002,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.92784375000002,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.64409375000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.63534375,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.98971875,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.02346875,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.28534375,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.06221875,"end":290.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.73659375,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.42346875000004,"end":326.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.09471875,"end":374.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.90909375,"end":429.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.35596875000005,"end":434.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.37659375000004,"end":440.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.43034375,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.59471875,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.21034375000005,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.37034375,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.16096875000005,"end":544.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.5703437500001,"end":585.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.1840937500001,"end":589.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.03159375,"end":604.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.8272187499999,"end":602.85659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.846,"end":28.699,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐市長麻煩市長委員好市長早安早大家早安那其實也借一點點時間因為剛剛有聆聽到主席的補充意見本席也是司法法制的委員在審查所謂的立法院職權刑事法目前確實只有藍白的版本被直接交付可以在院會表決"},{"start":29.939,"end":43.386,"text":"現在有超過十多萬的公民朋友站上街頭他們反對的就是這樣一個擴權的黑箱的沒有程序正義的法案而事實上我以司法法治委員會的參與者見證人我想中嘉賓委員所說是事實沒有錯誤"},{"start":50.189,"end":54.331,"text":"在我們這一個會場所討論的國民黨版民眾黨版的立法院職權行使法確實在吳宗憲委員的主持之下呢是企圖直接將條文保留沒有經過實質條文的審查這就是民主進步黨在場一直強調要求實質進入每一個條文的討論這樣才是民主的審議也因此民進黨為了阻撓這種"},{"start":79.5,"end":98.289,"text":"包括 the abuse of power and violence, the abuse of power and violence, the abuse of power and violence, the abuse of power and violence, the abuse of power and violence, the abuse of power and violence, the abuse of power and violence,"},{"start":99.77,"end":103.812,"text":"確實在吳宗憲召委的主持下企圖要打包快速協商沒有任何一個條文進入實質的討論甚至在召委主持的黨團協商上68個條文只進行了四個條文那因為在野黨的黨鞭離席因此主席也宣告了那就全案包裹交付朝野協商我在此用了四分鐘的時間因為事實不容抹滅"},{"start":127.822,"end":155.825,"text":"事實不容扭曲真相就是如此我再一次做補充好徐司長好您的經歷非常的有趣我覺得這是非常豐富的職場訓練您過去擔任國小教師嗎是那您認為在您國小教師的整個教育的歷程上到您後來來擔任檢查體系現在服務於我們的公職教育對於我們所有的正向意義在哪裡"},{"start":157.059,"end":158.781,"text":"您認為人性本善或是人性本惡就您的教育理念?"},{"start":180.68,"end":206.719,"text":"人性沒有辦法用三二直接劃定很好這是一個好的回答我也認為每一個人有不同的養成有不同的社會所給予的能量但是教育就是一個非常重要的媒介那我今天要破題的就是我曾經跟蔡新祥部長所質詢過的那因為是新任的部長次長我有機會再一次來表達我的關切就是吳思瑤本是我"},{"start":208.64,"end":231.159,"text":"認為每個人都有他非常良善的本質的地方。我有靠透過教育跟教化可以更加的指引跟導引出他的正能量。所以我要就教于您啊監獄的友善犬貓的計畫到底有沒有可能從蔡清祥部長的Say Yes來下一頁來讓新任的證明圈部長也能夠持續來推動下一頁。"},{"start":235.305,"end":235.665,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人擬具"},{"start":265.465,"end":283,"text":"所以國際的案例我不再贅述了哈從歐洲到美洲只要在監獄裡頭有友善的犬貓都能夠讓凶神惡煞一夕之間成為暖男去勾出他人性人性最柔軟的那個部分而且養成獸型人的責任感下一頁一樣美國的這個華盛頓女子監獄的"},{"start":290.816,"end":292.417,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人擬具《中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":315.313,"end":326.068,"text":"那當然美國的這個四爪監獄計劃我也再次提供給您大家可以持續再去做研究好下一頁台灣也有這樣的計劃喔好下一頁"},{"start":327.119,"end":347.342,"text":"在我們桃園的太原監獄曾經呢由受刑人來照顧在太原監獄四周的流浪貓那藉由照顧流浪貓收留流浪貓到最後全數的送養成功而很多是跟著受刑人回家的他們都培養出濃厚的感情下一頁"},{"start":348.183,"end":373.74,"text":"同樣的新竹的監獄犬訓班呢這是一個非常好的案例從2006年到2022年他們創下了47名獸行人成功訓練了84隻流浪犬事後認養率高達百分之百建立起收容人的自我認同自我價值也培育了他們新的職能這是一個好的案例下一頁"},{"start":375.003,"end":399.144,"text":"所以上一次我跟鍾嘉斌委員非常的湊巧我們在同一天都拋出同樣的質詢很快的我們法務部呢就直接跟嘉斌委員的選區評科大開始攜手合作了監獄關懷犬的訓練課程那矯正署也一起來納入了很多可以來做的雙方應當是簽了一個MOU"},{"start":402.026,"end":424.181,"text":"那這是一個好的嘗試。那台灣有這樣子的民間的學校的訓練也好或是民間的團體包括受益師公會很多的動保團體也好其實我們可以擴大的串聯合作的面向更多。所以我不曉得次長您心認您對於這個屏東開始起跑的監獄關懷犬屏間帶頭來做有沒有掌握有沒有持續擴大推動的計畫。"},{"start":431.761,"end":440.261,"text":"我剛接業務那這個部分我個人我是當然樂觀其成但是部裡面目前的規劃可能"},{"start":442.605,"end":457.938,"text":"好,沒關係,來。好,矯正署今天有來嗎?沒關係,好,下一頁。我跟新任的次長做說明啦。今天再一次再把這個issue再針對新任的次長,當然我原本以為部長會來,沒有關係。一個已經上路的計畫,政策就要延續,而且它是對的政策跟對的方向。"},{"start":465.564,"end":490.32,"text":"但是我在這裡提點出來幾個要項可能讓你們回去進一步精進我很怕你們呢有些壓力有些障礙在就不敢再推下去了我提供一些我具體的建議譬如說很多監獄友善犬貓大家都知道他是正面他不敢推是因為現在監獄本身就有超收的問題所以他的環境空間難以改善其實這是可以克服的"},{"start":491.221,"end":491.241,"text":"議員吳思瑤議員"},{"start":509.375,"end":514.318,"text":"以及經費編列不足的部分我提供的建議是農委會已經成立了成為農業部他也成立了專門的動物保護司所以未來他能夠像我過去在推動校園友善犬貓的經驗一樣農業部有相關編列的預算因為他是協助送養協助訓練這都有相關的包括飼料"},{"start":535.891,"end":563.593,"text":"還有醫療費用的補貼可以擴大跟農業部來合作那至於國力有限民力無窮只要我們法務部登高一呼民間的動保團體獸醫師公會大家都願意來協助進入必要提供免費無償的這種醫療服務甚至捐贈善心的飼料各類的貓罐頭狗罐頭這都是可行的"},{"start":564.033,"end":585.579,"text":"所以我針對超收的問題空間的問題經費不足的問題以及機關人力不足的問題我都提出一個具體可行的多元方案希望讓你們能夠去從多方面來努力讓這樣一個好的政策方向不要因為這麼多困難這麼多困境就不敢大力去推這樣好嗎是我們會仔細的評估好"},{"start":590.06,"end":590.24,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b35cf54ce7b7e6142afcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e0829107de0fecc655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:56:40 - 11:12:10","影片長度":"00:15:30","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":930,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:12:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:56:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時2分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴。有請次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好，很遺憾，因為我的疏失、帶錯了檔案，所以現在PowerPoint沒有辦法呈現，待會兒他準備好了，馬上就來。","首先請教一下，今天詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們把它加重，從一年以上七年以下，加重為三年以上十年以下，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，如果是就加重的這個，應該是符合人民的期待。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要跟你說的是，其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候，他們希望的不是關得久，而是希望抓得到，是不是這樣？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們希望未來檢警調的精神可以多放一些在打擊詐欺上，你同意嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這樣我們就來看一下，請問詐欺罪是非告訴乃論，是不是要主動偵辦？非告訴乃論不是要主動偵辦嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：詐欺罪是非告訴乃論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["徐次長錫祥：除非是親屬，有一定的親屬關係……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們要不要主動偵辦？"],["徐次長錫祥：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目前我們一年有多少的詐騙案件，你們的偵查能量足夠嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是依法要偵辦案件，當然是很吃緊，對於我們現有的人力來講是很吃緊，不過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果這個時候我們在刑法上增加其他的罪則，你覺得會不會讓我們檢警的能量備多力分？"],["徐次長錫祥：檢警的能量？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是說，本來人民希望我們集中打擊詐欺嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我們現在東增一個罪、西增一個罪，你覺得這樣會不會反而讓我們的力量分散？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有辦法判斷？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有辦法判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請教一下，如果依照目前我們正在審議的藐視國會罪，它是不是非告訴乃論？依照目前，包括翁版、傅版，在第一百四十條之一、第一百四十一條之一和第一百四十一條之二，您所知道的情況，你看看，我現在show出來了。"],["徐次長錫祥：不是告訴乃論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是告訴乃論。如果這個藐視國會罪一旦入法、一旦成立，那麼國會的質詢影片，檢察官看到影片當中，他是不是應該主動偵辦？如果委員認為應詢的官員有觸及到藐視國會，譬如說拒不作答啦！或者隱匿啦！或者作虛偽陳述啦！你覺得檢察官須不須要主動偵辦？既然它是刑法上的非告訴乃論，在公堂上公然為之，要不要去處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，照法律上來講，非告訴乃論之罪，檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑，當然要主動偵辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要主動偵辦。"],["徐次長錫祥：但是所謂的犯罪嫌疑，那是必須要集合很多的證據。"],["鍾委員佳濱：譬如說？"],["徐次長錫祥：譬如說，光是這個虛偽陳述，虛偽的部分，因為檢察官不是當事人，他不曉得當事人所講的內容是不是真實的，那很多……是不是構成犯罪嫌疑還要再進一步去調取相關的資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，在我們刑法上，不論是加重詐欺，這些有沒有犯罪嫌疑，檢察官有判斷的餘地，但是在國會上面，今天國、眾兩黨的版本，可以看到它的內容，「公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時，就其所知之重要關係事項」，請問我們在立法院的質詢，我們會質詢不重要的嗎？我們會質詢沒有關係的嗎？你覺得這裡面所設計的條件限制，第一個「就其所知」，他要知道；第二個要有「重要」；第三個要有「關係」。你認為就這樣的條文規定，你有辦法看質詢影片就知道這個事情是不是這個官員所知、這個是不是國會質詢的重要、這個是不是跟當天討論的案件有關？你有沒有辦法判斷？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，所以我剛才跟委員特別報告，我們檢察官不太可能看影帶然後就有辦法認定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你沒有辦法判斷是不是他所知……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有辦法判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是重要，也不能判斷是不是跟國會的質詢有關係，是不是這樣子？"],["徐次長錫祥：而且我們對於國會的尊重，我們理論上來講會讓國會自己先去作決定，它有掌握某些資訊、某些證據，然後將來可能會移送地檢署偵辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我是覺得，我們明顯看到，此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的，就是由我們目前的主席、召委在委員會裡面不經討論、不經審查就直接送到院會去，還送過了修正動議、再修正動議，現在所僅存的第一百四十一條之一，它裡面對於所謂刑法上的一些要件，我們都沒有辦法明確判斷。","往下看，好，誰可以提告訴？刑事訴訟法第二百三十二條「犯罪之被害人，得為告訴。」，請問在剛剛的藐視國會罪當中，誰是犯罪的被害人？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是國家，屬於國家法益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國家嗎？那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權，我質詢你，我發現你藐視國會，犯了刑法第一百四十一條之一，我要求提起告訴，可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是告發。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以告發？"],["徐次長錫祥：任何人只要有犯罪嫌疑……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以質詢的國會議員可以告發？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看影片的民眾可以告發、看新聞的觀眾可以告發，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你確定的話，我想就很清楚了，我們現在來看，每個人民都可以去北檢按鈴告發嗎？當時有一個臺北市議員質疑當時的農委會主委陳吉仲浪費公帑4億元，他們兩個去告發他瀆職罪，你們會怎麼處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會分案偵辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候你們後來怎麼處理？就本案來講，你們怎麼處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們後來處理了嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：只要去按鈴申告、告發，我們一定會分案處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們就很清楚了嘛！今天社會大眾殷殷期盼的是集中我們檢調的力量，透過我們修法加重詐欺的刑責後，你們去幫人民去除這個大害。如果今天因為政治上的立場不同、意見不同、多元言論，我只要看立法院的質詢，我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的國會議員的質詢有問題，我就去按鈴告發，你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官疲於奔命？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們受理告發，依法偵辦，這是我們的義務，不好評論說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可能你不便評論目前還在審議中的法案。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，目前藐視國會罪有幾個版本，有翁曉玲的版本，處罰對象是官員，如果是第一百四十一條之一及之二是傅崐萁的版本，處罰對象是官員加人民，如果是目前國眾的再修正動議，處罰對象是官員；行為的樣態，翁版包括了其他藐視國會的行為，傅崐萁版包括了反質詢，到了國眾版的再修正動議，僅剩聽證、質詢時的虛偽陳述；刑責從三年、三年，降到現在主席說的一年其實沒有很重、很輕微。你覺得這是不是處罰對象及行為的限縮？就這樣的沿革來講，從翁版、傅版到再修正版是不是限縮？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個裡面的內容不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我只是說從官員，處罰對象有沒有限縮了？刑責有沒有？行為上有沒有限縮了？"],["徐次長錫祥：是不一樣的，官員是始終沒有改變，只有人民是不是對象……"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後藐視國會的行為及反質詢……"],["徐次長錫祥：然後反質詢也有調整……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["徐次長錫祥：所以每個人的看法都不是很一致。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以現在限縮到只剩在立法院職權行使法當中要增加的聽證及原本有的質詢時的虛偽陳述，是不是這樣子？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們目前看到中華民國刑法第五章之一、第一百四十一條之一、第一百四十一條之二的再修正動議，所謂的「就其所知之重要關係事項，為虛偽陳述者」，「重要關係事項」就是會影響質詢的結論，那有沒有不重要的？剛剛我所詢問，你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，好，所以我們就可以看清楚，今天我藉這個機會，因為國民黨主控的司法及法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見、不同的討論，所以我們被迫要用質詢的方式，就明天即將要做二讀審議，因為民眾抗議，已經縮回到只剩第一百四十一條之一再修正動議的內容，來給大家看一個訴求，這個結論也同時跟主席報告，我們希望未來能夠刪除藐視國會罪，就是再修正的退回重審，還有所有法案退回到司法及法制委員會重新審議。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","鍾委員，有關剛剛你說我主持的不經討論、不經審查，我想鍾委員可能記憶有發生錯誤，這個部分再麻煩鍾委員回去看一下當天的直播有沒有經過討論、有沒有經過審查。","另外，我覺得大家都是國會議員，對於記者的下標，關一年叫做不重，這句話，我認為如果鍾委員對這句話有興趣的話，要批評本席，應該先去聽一下當時記者會的完整發言，而不是看記者下標，因為我覺得現在媒體有時候下標與事實的差距都蠻大，我想鍾委員一定也都很瞭解，我覺得記者怎麼寫，我們尊重他的寫法，但你拿這個來質詢同仁，我覺得沒有意思。好，謝謝鍾委員。","接下來請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.00909375,"end":116.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.53159375000001,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.51846875000001,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.09971875000001,"end":130.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.15846875,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.16659375,"end":134.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.41096875,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.27159375000002,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.91284375,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.46534375000002,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.59971875000002,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.10971875,"end":146.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.24846875,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.29471875000002,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.30284375000002,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.86346875,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.06034375000002,"end":163.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.38909375,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.94096875000002,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.46784375000001,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.91471875000002,"end":177.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.02846875,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.99721875,"end":190.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.94596875000002,"end":211.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.11596875,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.72284375,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.98409375000003,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.03034375000001,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.45221875000001,"end":234.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.22721875000002,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.26846875,"end":240.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.93034375000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.72284375,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.13596875000002,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.71346875,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.00846875000002,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.28659375,"end":257.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.74221875,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.96534375,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.72471875,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.85971875,"end":259.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.99034375,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.66534375000003,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.09596875,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.16284375000004,"end":344.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.41159375,"end":345.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.96409375,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.23409375,"end":347.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.92159375,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.90409375,"end":353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.62971875,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.88221875000005,"end":360.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.23596875000004,"end":362.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.86034375,"end":364.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.00346875,"end":368.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.97721875,"end":371.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.00659375000004,"end":376.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.09409375,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.11909375000005,"end":381.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.14846875,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.22846875000005,"end":405.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.65534375000004,"end":408.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.28346875000005,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.02596875,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.88159375000004,"end":429.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.89846875,"end":417.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.10721875,"end":439.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.23221875,"end":447.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.40096875,"end":440.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.20221875000004,"end":443.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.51409375000003,"end":446.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.02846875,"end":453.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.52971875000003,"end":453.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.09909375,"end":455.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.13284375,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.84909375,"end":467.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.38409375000003,"end":472.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.13846875,"end":477.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.40784375000004,"end":477.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.59346875000006,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.36096875000004,"end":485.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.07721875000004,"end":499.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.24159375000005,"end":490.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.64034375000006,"end":507.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.55159375000005,"end":502.83846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.12034375,"end":512.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.9297187500001,"end":516.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.96284375,"end":519.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9665937500001,"end":529.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.83846875,"end":537.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.63471875,"end":544.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.0134687500001,"end":544.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.8403437500001,"end":544.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.8740937499999,"end":545.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.8528437500001,"end":545.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.86971875,"end":545.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.88659375,"end":549.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.37534375,"end":559.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.21034375,"end":554.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.6784687500001,"end":554.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.2222187500001,"end":559.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.3190937500001,"end":568.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.38659375,"end":560.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.9040937500001,"end":573.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.47721875,"end":573.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.49409375,"end":573.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.0847187500001,"end":579.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.19784375,"end":580.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.2397187500001,"end":582.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.99471875,"end":585.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.52596875,"end":599.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.9540937500001,"end":601.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.57409375,"end":613.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0447187500001,"end":618.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.14096875,"end":624.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.5747187500001,"end":625.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.0303437499999,"end":625.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.5703437500001,"end":625.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.8572187500001,"end":634.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.84346875,"end":633.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.64909375,"end":634.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.88534375,"end":634.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.9697187500001,"end":640.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.8972187500001,"end":653.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.8784687500001,"end":652.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.9709687500001,"end":662.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.06659375,"end":677.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.2709687500001,"end":679.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.78971875,"end":686.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.11346875,"end":688.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.2397187500001,"end":702.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.2565937500001,"end":690.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.18471875,"end":690.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.68909375,"end":713.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.79846875,"end":705.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.5828437499999,"end":707.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.77596875,"end":716.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.0834687500001,"end":720.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.2390937499999,"end":727.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.03971875,"end":731.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.83221875,"end":732.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.08096875,"end":737.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.6203437500001,"end":738.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.87346875,"end":737.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.24034375,"end":739.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.6453437499999,"end":757.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.66221875,"end":740.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.51596875,"end":770.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.2397187500001,"end":771.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.3872187500001,"end":772.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.46721875,"end":774.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.28971875,"end":777.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.7490937500002,"end":777.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.7278437500001,"end":778.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.76159375,"end":779.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.21284375,"end":786.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.43159375,"end":784.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.4778437500001,"end":790.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.8528437500001,"end":789.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.6922187499999,"end":825.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.5347187500001,"end":829.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.3059687500001,"end":834.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.63909375,"end":839.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.49471875,"end":839.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.18221875,"end":853.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.13534375,"end":846.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":851.50971875,"end":851.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.9734687500002,"end":863.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":863.42346875,"end":882.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.5090937500001,"end":883.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.39909375,"end":885.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.4072187500001,"end":886.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":887.03159375,"end":890.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.54159375,"end":891.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":891.7903437500001,"end":892.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.7353437500001,"end":893.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.2878437500001,"end":895.3172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.7390937500002,"end":896.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.1397187500002,"end":898.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.6922187500002,"end":899.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.89034375,"end":912.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.0022187500001,"end":914.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.79096875,"end":927.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.52721875,"end":928.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":928.96596875,"end":929.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":929.96159375,"end":929.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.293,"end":0.455,"text":"並委員發言。謝謝。"},{"start":113.295,"end":121.325,"text":"我跟你說因為我知道你們在想什麼那我覺得要我們就依照會議的順序來其實我是真的給他我真的本來我想說他在做檔案我真的剛剛在修好"},{"start":126.6,"end":131.383,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人擬具:「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案．則不予審查��"},{"start":144.161,"end":169.84,"text":"不是,那可以麻煩你們現在就...就...因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛,對不對?我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了齁。那不然你跟吳思瑤對調,你現在跟他聯絡一下,你跟吳思瑤對調。你現在跟他對調,對對對。不是,因為我跟你講,我都怎麼會不知道大家心裡在想什麼?"},{"start":170.987,"end":177.451,"text":"我我我這個人我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦我比較喜歡大家就直球對決該怎麼樣的怎麼樣"},{"start":195.748,"end":218.104,"text":"因為現在高委主席說我們兩個對調,可是我覺得我們兩個對調很不一樣。我現在說我的檔案,對我先講啦,我要先講說他不讓我有時間再做檔案啦,還是你要分,因為他擔心說你留在最後。不是啦,因為大家都在搞有的沒有的,我覺得沒意思,要嘛就依照順序啦,大家一切依照程序走。"},{"start":219.409,"end":234.03,"text":"因為難免我們在跑場的時候有些錯誤我本來只想說讓大家休息我並沒有什麼其他意思但現在我的助理在努力的在彌補他不願意跟你換嗎他也沒辦法過來因為他知道我在他前面"},{"start":238.984,"end":257.713,"text":"所以我跟你講我知道你們想要幹什麼所以我覺得我真的尊重每一個人的發言但是我知道在想什麼啊你不能因為你們這樣你想要整個大家都在等啊沒有我跟你講就麻煩你現在開始啦"},{"start":258.8,"end":259.743,"text":"好麻煩你現在開始"},{"start":340.134,"end":366.754,"text":"那個鍾委員你現在要開始了不然我開始計時了真的鍾委員你自己準備錯檔案的話這個不能不是我跟你講這已經差不多而且我跟你說我真的知道你們在想什麼啦我真的知道你們在想什麼所以可不可以麻煩你開始好不好那你們每次都玩這一套好啦那那個好謝謝接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言"},{"start":371.144,"end":376.476,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長公務夥伴那有請次長好謝謝麻煩次長委員好"},{"start":382.316,"end":408.366,"text":"市長好,很遺憾,因為當然我的疏失,所以我代出了檔案,所以現在PowerPoint沒辦法呈現。待會他準備好了,我馬上再來。首先原請請教一下,今天的詐欺罪的修法是要解決詐欺猖獗的問題,是不是這樣?市長是。那所以呢我們把它加重嘛,從一年以上七年以下加重為三年以上十年以下,是不是這樣?市長是。那你認為我們這樣做有回應到人民的期待嗎?"},{"start":409.492,"end":428.289,"text":"報告委員因為有些如果是就加重這個應該是符合人民的期待但是我要跟你說的說其實當人民表達他們希望加重的時候他們希望的不是關得久而是希望抓得到是不是這樣子是所以我們希望未來我們的檢警調的"},{"start":430.148,"end":453.006,"text":"的精神可以多放一些在打擊詐欺你同意嗎同意好那這樣我們來看一下齁那請問一下詐欺罪是告訴乃論是不是要主動偵辦是非告訴乃論要主動偵辦嗎詐欺罪非告訴乃論對除非是親屬有一定的親屬關係好那你們要不要主動偵辦要好那目前齁我們一年有多少詐騙的案件你們偵查能量足夠嗎"},{"start":455.592,"end":471.972,"text":"我們還是依法要偵辦案件當然很吃緊對我們現有的人力來講很吃緊所以如果這個時候我們在刑法上增加其他的罪責你覺得會不會讓我們的利多倍分檢警的能量利多倍分"},{"start":473.171,"end":475.092,"text":"請問如果依照目前我們正在審議的藐視國會罪,他是不是非告訴乃論?"},{"start":501.687,"end":525.782,"text":"依照目前包括 on 版跟副版在一四零之一跟一四一之一和一四一之二您所知道的情況你看到這個我現在秀出來了對不是高中來論不是高中來論是那如果檢察官看到這個藐視國會罪一旦入法一旦成立那麼國會的執行影片檢察官看到影片當中他是不是說他應該主動偵辦如果委員認為應詢的官員他們有"},{"start":530.524,"end":543.711,"text":"觸及到藐視國會比如說拒不作答啦或者隱匿啦或者做虛偽的陳述啦你覺得檢察官會不會需要主動偵辦?既然那是刑法的非告訴乃論在公堂上公然的為之要不要去處理?"},{"start":544.875,"end":573.291,"text":"報告委員照法律上來講非告出乃論之罪當然檢察官知道有犯罪嫌疑要主動偵辦所謂的犯罪嫌疑那是必須要集合很多的證據比如說光是這一個虛偽這個虛偽的部分的話檢察官不是當事人他不曉得當事人講的內容是不是真實那很多是不是構成犯罪嫌疑那還要再進一步去調取相關的資料"},{"start":574.33,"end":599.166,"text":"當然啊在我們刑法上不予加重詐欺這些有沒有犯罪嫌疑檢察官有判斷的餘地但是在國會上面如果說今天我們未來民國眾兩黨他們說欸你看到內容喔公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時就其所知之重要關係事項請問我們在立法院的質詢我們會質詢不重要的嗎"},{"start":600.006,"end":613.143,"text":"委員會執行沒有關係的嗎?你覺得這裡面所設計的一個條件限制就其所知第一個就其所知他要知道第二個要有重要第三要有關係你認為就這樣的條文規定你有辦法看"},{"start":614.97,"end":635.575,"text":"視頻質詢就知道說這個事情是在官員所知這個是不是國會質詢的重要這個是不是跟當天討論的案件有關你有沒有辦法判斷是所以我剛才跟委員特別報告不太可我們檢察官不太可能看影帶然後就就就因為你沒有辦法判斷沒有辦法判斷是不是他所知"},{"start":636.355,"end":652.245,"text":"是不是重要也不能判斷跟國會的質詢有關係而且我們對於國會的尊重我們理論上來講會讓國會自己先去做決定說他有哪掌握某些資訊某些證據然後將來會可能要移送第九條正版"},{"start":653.246,"end":677.474,"text":"所以我是覺得我們明顯看到目前此刻在明天的二讀會要進行審議的就是由我們目前的主席召委在委員會裡面不經討論不經審查就直接送到院會去還送過了修正動議再修正動議現在所僅存的一事一條之一它裡面對於所謂的刑法上的一些要件我們都沒有辦法明確判斷往下看"},{"start":678.325,"end":686.346,"text":"好,誰可以提告訴?刑事訴訟法第二三二條,犯罪之被害人得為告訴。請問在剛剛的藐視國會罪當中,誰是犯罪的被害人?"},{"start":687.15,"end":716.397,"text":"我那是應該是國家國家嗎那立法委員可不可以主張我自己的質詢權我質詢你我發現你藐視國會犯了刑法第11之二之一那我要求提起告訴可以向檢察官提起告訴嗎應該是告發可以可以告發任何人只要違反罪那個所以質詢的國會議員可以告發看影片的民眾可以告發看新聞的觀眾可以告發是這樣的意思嗎是的你確定齁好我想就很清楚了嘛好我們現在看"},{"start":717.165,"end":737.172,"text":"那每個人民都可以去北檢案您告發嗎?如果說今天當時有一個台北市議員他質疑陳吉仲當時的農委會主委浪費公帑市議員他們兩個去告發他獨執罪你們會怎麼處理?我們分案偵辦那時候你們後來怎麼處理?這就是本案來講你們怎麼處理?你們後來有處理了嗎?"},{"start":745.471,"end":756.402,"text":"今天社會大眾因應其判的是集中我們減掉的力量透過我們修法加重詐欺的行則後你們去幫人民去除這個大害"},{"start":757.783,"end":777.592,"text":"結果如果今天因為政治上的立場不同意見不同多元言論我只要看立法院的質詢我認為那個官員在回答我立場相同的官員的質詢有問題我就去按鈴告發你覺得會不會造成我們檢察官員檢察官的疲於奔命"},{"start":780.273,"end":790.017,"text":"我們受理告發依法偵辦這是我們的義務喔可能你不便評論目前還在審議中的法案喔我們看一下喔"},{"start":790.785,"end":812.194,"text":"目前呢,藐視國會罪呢,它有幾個版本。有翁小林的版本,處罰對象是官員。如果是一四一條之一跟之二是復規刑的版本,它的處罰對象是官員加人民。如果是目前國眾的在修正供應是官員。行為的樣態,它包括了翁版,包括其他藐視國會的行為。在復規刑版,包括了反質詢。到了國眾版的在修正動議僅剩聽證跟質詢,則虛偽陳述。刑責從三年三年降到現在,"},{"start":817.156,"end":839.333,"text":"主席說的一年其實沒有很重很輕的行為你覺得這是不是一個處罰對象跟行為的限縮就這樣的一個嚴格來講從翁版副版到再修正版是不是一個限縮這個裡面的內容不是我只是說從官員處罰對象有沒有限縮了行者有沒有行為上有沒有限縮了"},{"start":841.198,"end":862.741,"text":"是不一樣的,官員是始終沒有改變。然後呢,只有人民的行為是對象。對,然後反質詢,反質詢的話也有調整啦。每個人看法都不是很一致。是,所以現在限縮到只剩在立法院執行新法當中,就要增加的聽證跟原本有的質詢的虛偽陳述,是不是這樣子?是。好,那我們來往下看齁。"},{"start":863.542,"end":887.678,"text":"所以說我們目前看到的中華民國刑法第五章五至一章五章之一一四一之條之一一四一之條之二的在修正動議呢所謂的說所以就其所知之重要關係事項為序位之陳述重要關係事項就是影響諮詢的結論那有沒有不重要的剛我所詢問你認為國會議員在詢問行政官員有不重要的嗎沒有沒有好"},{"start":888.177,"end":913.91,"text":"所以我們就看清楚今天我藉這個機會因為國民黨主控的司法法制委員會不給委員有不同的意見不同的討論所以我們被迫要用這個質詢的方式來就明天即將做二讀審議已經縮回到因為民眾抗議縮回到只剩一事一條之一的再修正動議的內容我們來給大家看一個訴求所以我們希望未來"},{"start":915.771,"end":926.146,"text":"這個結論也是同時跟主席報告我們希望未來能夠刪除藐視國會罪就是再修正的退回重審所有的法案退回到司法法制委員會重新審議以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b38dbf83f9878c206e5186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9ea3ed08a906047ca35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:13:16 - 11:18:15","影片長度":"00:04:59","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":299,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:18:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:13:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.920343750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.265968750000003,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.62346875,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.980968750000002,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.96596875,"end":47.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.992218750000006,"end":91.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.25284375000001,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.00784375,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":100.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.25596875000001,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.70721875000001,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.59596875000001,"end":120.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.56534375000001,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.40034375,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.00471875,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.33784375000002,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.77096875,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.88721875000002,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.30034375000002,"end":170.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.87346875,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.81346875,"end":185.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.88409375,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.66846875000002,"end":190.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.00096875,"end":192.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.11909375000002,"end":192.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.11846875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.06721875000002,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.25909375,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.29284375,"end":224.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.33346875,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.92346875,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.44659375,"end":244.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.23909375000002,"end":236.28096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.31471875000003,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.39909375000002,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.41034375,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.57909375000003,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.94909375,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.11721875,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.04784375,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.12284375,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.79471875,"end":298.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.31784375,"end":298.48221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.099,"end":21.984,"text":"好,我們請何佩珊部長。好,請何部長。部長,在今天早凌晨我們又發生這個新竹兩名消防員不幸罹難的事件。"},{"start":24.155,"end":47.084,"text":"離難之前曾喊說求救但是到最後40分鐘之後尋獲喪命那過去到現在其實消防員一直有提到公安、職安跟主公會三大訴求主公會之前我們稍微有排相關的一個修法我今天比較想要更重要的是要focus在職安的部分"},{"start":47.944,"end":63.927,"text":"因為這兩名的消防員一個年資19年一位年資14年其實都是非常算是訓練有數的消防員也都才30多歲你我來講我們的年齡都是他們的哥哥姐姐但他們就不幸離開了"},{"start":65.003,"end":92.648,"text":"所以到現在來講近十年有45位消防員弟兄已經離開那那麼危險的一個事件但是我們一直在講說警消訴求應該要用職安法來納入因為職安法的規定僱主的職災預防責任國家的勞檢制度還有僱主依法防止職災發生的課則都是有所必要的到目前"},{"start":94.059,"end":121.71,"text":"我想請教部長您的態度是什麼?委員指的是職安法納入消防員這部分這部分因為牽涉到那個法體系的問題那當然因為這牽涉到內政部消防署那所以我們還有包括考試院因為這個整個的因為消防員屬於公務人員所以我們原先的這個規劃是因為公務員不是用職安法所以說政府是公務員的雇主"},{"start":124.071,"end":139.661,"text":"那沒有防止職業災害或是保障工作者健康的時候沒有任何罰則啊公務員頂多記過或是調職但是我們想請教過去到現在消防員殉職的案件消防單位裡面有哪一個主管因為這樣而被懲處"},{"start":141.215,"end":170.319,"text":"對啊,所以沒有啊,那這也是消防員為什麼會覺得是說他的工作風險度比任何一個行業都來的高但是他的保障卻是最低的對,所以他我了解是內政部消防法已經把職業安全衛生專章送到行政院應該很快就會送立院應該要在那部分規範會更實際啦,有保障而且能實際能運作這樣子你現在看到的是公務人員的安全及衛生辦法,是不是?"},{"start":170.919,"end":188.059,"text":"不是。消防法裡面徵定職業安全衛生專章給消防員。他就是為消防員這個常常有這樣子的意外而徵定的。在民洋大火之後就開始規劃了。但是到目前為止還是沒有看到,但我們又看到了。所以我們其實說實在話這就是跟時間賽跑嘛。"},{"start":191.843,"end":213.518,"text":"是是是第一是跟時間賽跑第二是要給消防員足夠的一個保障以及第三真的不要再發生說今天攻擊明天忘記的事件那我現在請教的是身為職業安全主管機關部長上一任的部長許明春有承諾說他不會反對公務人員安全衛生辦法保障不要低於職業安全衛生法"},{"start":214.512,"end":242.567,"text":"那一樣道理。如果說未來消防員納入職安法或是另外修法也應該要有跟職安法一樣等同規範的保障。您認同嗎?當然。那個所以我們在消防法職業安全衛生專章我們也有參與。我們跟消防組一起會的。所以會跟現在的職安法一樣的標準、態度包括過說本席剛有提到的顧主職災的預防責任國家勞檢的制度以及衛醫法防止職災發生的課則"},{"start":243.948,"end":269.45,"text":"都應該要加強。對,我們兩單位有會。他們消防署有參照我們職安署的這個規定,然後來看是不是...那本席最後想請教什麼時間點會送出行政院?我們來幫忙鋪許好嗎?因為其實不是我們的業務啦,是內政部,可是沒關係政府一體的我們也來幫忙,然後跟行政院反映,請行政院趕快送立院這樣子。"},{"start":270.151,"end":296.317,"text":"因為本席要確定的就是勞動部部長的態度當然我也會去詢問內政部部長甚至本席在之後的總諮詢也會要求行政院長表態但最重要的是時間不等人尤其是這件事情已經是過去十年消防員也好警察同仁也好也都認為說勢在必行公安、職安以及主公會三大訴求至少在職安的部分上面我們都要加緊腳步謝謝委員 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b359cef983ca047ae1e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e471a9116c42a6ddb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:04:34 - 11:18:51","影片長度":"00:14:17","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":857,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:18:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:04:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我請鄭部長、張廖次長及葉次長。"],["主席：我們請部長及兩位次長。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：上個禮拜五我們看到很多民眾來到立法院外面，關心國會正在審查的國會擴權法案的修法。其中很多媒體關注的是，現場有很多是高中生，這些高中生的發言，坦白說我自己看到是覺得非常驚艷，我認為高中生的論述能力非常強，因為他們所提出來的觀點跟論述以及事實查核的能力，其實很多都超越不同政黨提出來的說明版本，你可以看得出來他們是自己做功課、自己思考的。不只是臺北的議場外面我們看到高中生，包括彰化、嘉義火車站都有高中生主動出來發起集會，雄中的學生在學校發起了肥皂箱，當中有各種不同的觀點，所以對我來說，這絕對不會是單一政黨的行動。我想請問部長，你有沒有看到我們的高中生在街頭上、在學校，為了我們國家的公共政策站出來論述？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實很多時候，我們看到現在年輕人對國家發展、公共政策的一些關心，事實上真的是比以前有更多的關懷，相當程度上我們是應該給予肯定，表示我們教育在鼓勵獨立思考方面，在追求民主這個部分，事實上也看到年輕人展現了這方面的一些素養。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，事實上公民的思辨能力也是過去教改以來非常重要的一個項目，所以我想這一點要給予肯定。過去在潘文忠部長任內，包括課綱改革的時候，當時部長直接跟學生坐下來對話，就學校裡面的服儀自主等等，都志在提升學生的主體性，行政院也有青諮會，我希望教育部要持續努力以提升學生的自主能力。","所以今天必須跟部長討論的也就是青年基本法，近期教育部才召開了公聽會，其中兩項是我們蒐集到的民間意見，第一點，我們希望在法制面、青年基本法當中明定支持青年的政策參與，另外也希望有更多跟學生直接對話的平臺。首先我要請問部長，青年基本法明定鼓勵青年政策參與，這個方向你是認同的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：身為民主國家的任何一分子，我相信關心國家政策的發展，這個應該是被鼓勵的，所以青年對公共事務的參與，我想我們應該給予肯定。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，那關於我們跟青年直接對話的平臺，教育部目前有沒有在規劃當中？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們現在的網路，很多的管道事實上都可以納入、聽年輕人的聲音，也建立了青年參與政策的一些機制，從中央到地方事實上都有，甚至我們看到地方還有青年發展局，這些正式組織的成立都是希望能夠更加鼓勵年輕人共同關心這一塊土地。"],["吳委員沛憶：當然，因為我們有青發署，所以關於青年事務相關的這些業務跟規劃一直都有，而現在之所以希望能夠制定青年基本法，就是希望針對相關的權利義務以及對象，我們把它明定清楚。例如我今天要直接、具體地提三點建議，第一個，目前教育部的主張，關於青年的年齡定義是18歲至45歲。我的建議是，我們應該要參考聯合國的標準，把它放寬、下修到15歲，尤其我們現在看到高中生對於公共參與有絕對的熱切，也有絕對的能力，所以我希望，既然我們要打開政府跟青年對話的平臺，不要把高中生排除在外。","第二點，我們的政治參與當然有很多形式，過去青輔會時期，當時的主委是現在的副院長鄭麗君，他當時力推的是審議民主。而這幾年我自己在地方議會都看到了很多是參與式預算的實作，行政院也有推動vTaiwan的線上政策等等討論的經驗。所以我要說的是，我們當然有非常多的平臺可以讓青年參與，但是千萬不要讓青年淪為政府的樣板，也就是說，我們必須實質地讓青年的參與、青年的意見可以導入決策的過程，這才叫做賦權，不是開會的時候找個青年代表來簽個名，結果會議結束的結論還是都依照我們部裡、依照我們政府的版本來去做，這個就叫做青年樣板，而不叫做青年政策參與。所以我希望教育部未來在訂定不管是青年國是會議還是相關的機制，務必要把賦權青年參與決策這一項非常重要的要件納入。","第三點就是，我們看到了不管是大學的學生社團還是高中生的學生社團，其實發展都越來越蓬勃，我希望我們也要把社團當做正式教育的一環，但目前我看到教育部在政策上面支持學生社團的政策工具是少之又少。我自己在高中參加景美女中熱舞社的時候就曾經為了辦成發，去外面想辦法打工來支持自己的社團活動。所以這一點我也希望教育部可以跟青年對話，具體地去擬定。","接下來要非常關心的是，我們的體育署要升格為體育部，這不只是賴清德總統競選期間的政見，也是我個人參選立委的時候提出來的政見，尤其是我在臺北市擔任市議員的時候，就注意到我們臺北市運動產業的規模快速增加，以健身房為例，2013年全國只有149間，到2023年已經以幾倍數的成長來到超過900間。這個會有什麼問題？疫情期間大量場館都有紓困的需求，甚至發生很多消費爭議。但是因為過去的地方政府自治條例對於運動場館其實並沒有具體納管，所以產生非常多有爭議、但是政府找不到權責單位去介入、協助調解的問題。所以我想我們看到的是運動產業在臺灣蓬勃並且快速發展，已經到了政府組織改造刻不容緩的時刻！","除了我剛剛講到的場館，像職棒工會、職籃工會、女足工會也先後成立，我想臺灣人可能10年前都很難想像現在我們甚至有2個職籃聯盟，是這麼樣的蓬勃發展！工會參與了工會跟球團之間的權利保障，也涉及選手擔任國手的時候，他跟政府之間的權益保障，所以之前我也常常跟署長在關心職籃工會相關的議題。現在終於來到討論升格的時刻，體育署2011年才成立運動產業組，它是從原來的綜規組改組的。但是我們必須去因應運動產業的蓬勃變化，所以我希望我們在做這個組織改造的時候必須很仔細地把運動產業考量進去！因此我想請問部長，目前對於體育署升格為體育部有沒有一個時間表？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，首先，有關運動產業這個部分，我們的體育署確實有這個規劃，它不排斥在未來的規劃可能會變成一個署或者研究院這樣一個層級，我們目前在體育署這個部分確實也已經有一些初步的規劃。"],["吳委員沛憶：有沒有一個時間表？"],["鄭部長英耀：大概7月會在北、中、南、東舉辦分區座談，也許8月就開始針對這些座談、廣聽社會……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以預計7月份會舉辦座談？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個座談是跟民間團體、相關實務界的人士來座談？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這非常重要！過去法定要求文化部舉辦全國文化會議，我認為我們也應該舉辦全國體育會議。部長，我就是要提醒你這一點，升格為體育部我個人固然認為非常重要，但是我認為充分跟實務界討論之後，再去擬定相關的升格規劃更加重要。如果現在有人跟你說你立刻、馬上給我提出修法，立刻要升格，但是不用討論的話，那個人就是在害你！因為沒有討論、不是民主啦！部長！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以切記我們一定要充分跟民間溝通、討論，看見產業需求、看見選手需求，再來做綜合的相關規劃，可不可以做得到？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然，廣聽民意，然後做出一個更好的升格規劃是我們努力的目標，也一定要這樣來做。"],["吳委員沛憶：再來是我們的體育預算。因為我們副院長昨天也說體育預算應該要增加，我就想要請教張廖次長，因為我知道你過去一直在關心運動發展基金的預算編列。過去運動發展基金的執行率好不容易達到九成，但是收入的決算每次都低估，能不能請問為什麼會這樣子呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實我在擔任立法委員的時候也曾經對基金預算、公務預算的比例提出過建議，當然，現在我在部裡面也會儘量爭取除了基金預算以外，我們的公務預算也能夠年年成長。"],["吳委員沛憶：是！因為預算就是要覈實編列嘛！已經年年都是低估了，所以我希望我們未來要精確地去評估！"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實沒有年年低估啦！從2016到2024年，應該是已經從大概七、八十億的規模成長到一百三十幾億了。因為現在開始在編明年的預算，明年的預算預計也會繼續成長。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。最後我想請教葉次長，因為我個人國小參與了當時410教改的實驗班，我在臺北市議會的時候也推動臺北市實驗教育中心的成立，我知道葉次長說你所辦的第一批非學實驗教育機構已經有學生是大學生了，他們也回來跟你聊天，所以，以實驗教育三法修法之後這些年來的經驗，你認為未來教育部要怎麼樣來支持實驗教育？"],["葉次長丙成：我想實驗教育是臺灣教育一個滿難得的果實，以去年來講，東京都政府派了一群官員來臺灣參訪，就是特別想要來看實驗教育，所以臺灣的實驗教育其實已經做到連日本都在acclaim這件事情。但回過頭來，我覺得這十年下來，確實有一些我覺得我們未來可以再一起努力的目標，舉例來講，實驗教育很多時候最大一個挑戰就是包括空間在內的很多問題，比如說在學校裡面，簽約、租約都是要一年一簽，這對實驗教育是一種非常大的壓力，再比如說數位、資訊這些的support，如果不是一個正常的學校，它要申請這些其實有時候也都會受到一些限制。這個部分我們可以看怎麼來努力。","另外一方面，我覺得實驗教育最重要的一件事情是體制外的教育不是為了要跟體制內教育打對台，事實上在108課綱的很多精神，包括以素養為主的這些教育，其實很多理念跟實驗教育在做的事情是很相通的。所以怎麼樣讓實驗教育跟體制內教育有更多的交流，我覺得對體制內教育是很有幫助的，這也是我覺得我們可以一起來努力的。","最後一點我要提的就是，實驗教育在過去這十年有非常蓬勃的發展，有非常多的實驗教育團體、非常多的實驗教育機構，但是這些機構和團體我覺得要避免，就是裡面坦白講我們看到其實也有一些掛羊頭賣狗肉，假實驗教育之名，但可能行更填鴨之實的，他們可以拿掉很多我們覺得課綱裡面很重要的一些課，反而更著重在升學的填鴨。怎麼樣讓這些不會造成實驗教育被污名化？這也是我覺得未來我們要努力的一個目標，來確保實驗教育的品質。謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，部長，我必須說我今天相當失望的是在教育部整本報告裡面，我沒有看到你們對實驗教育政策方向的說明。過去我們為什麼要在臺北市、地方政府推動一個中心，就是因為我們發現這個主責、承辦的單位是分成國小、國中、高中，但可能有一所實驗教育機構它就是國小、國中、高中貫串的，所以我希望在我們的部門當中能有一個整體的大腦，可以整體地思考實驗教育推廣的方向，這部分我希望教育部能夠繼續精進。謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝吳委員的關心，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沛憶委員，謝謝部長、次長。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時18分）","繼續開會（11時24分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.01721875,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.763468750000001,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.26846875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.65221875,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.77659375,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.88659375,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.53971875,"end":181.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.68596875,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.89784375000002,"end":203.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.93159375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.96534375000002,"end":210.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.33971875,"end":240.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.78659375,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.75596875,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.34221875000003,"end":511.73159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.28409375,"end":550.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.36909375,"end":537.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.0378437500001,"end":602.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.1172187500001,"end":582.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.0690937500001,"end":593.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.24471875,"end":614.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.4709687500001,"end":631.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.0334687500001,"end":632.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.1684687500001,"end":635.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.2022187499999,"end":632.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.16784375,"end":655.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.33784375,"end":656.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":655.86096875,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.70034375,"end":658.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.8684687500001,"end":676.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":676.95471875,"end":710.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.39659375,"end":823.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":823.36221875,"end":855.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":857.3147187500001,"end":857.97284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.452,"end":10.254,"text":"謝謝主席,我請鄭部長,張亮次長及葉次長好,我們請部長及兩位次長"},{"start":19.478,"end":36.714,"text":"部長好上個禮拜五我們看到很多的民眾來到立法院外面關心我們國會正在審查的國會擴權法案的修法那其中呢很多媒體在關注的是現場看到了很多是高中生"},{"start":37.935,"end":58.748,"text":"這些高中生的發言我坦白說我自己看到是非常的驚豔我認為我們的高中生是論述能力非常的強因為他們所提出來的觀點跟他的論述以及他事實查核的能力其實很多都超越我們不同政黨提出來的說明版本你可以看得出來他們是自己做功課"},{"start":59.488,"end":86.401,"text":"自己去思考的不只是台北的議場外我們看到高中生包括了彰化嘉義火車站都有高中生主動出來發起集會熊中的學生在學校發起了肥皂箱裡面是各種不同的觀點所以對我來說這絕對不會是單一政黨的行動我想請問部長你有沒有看到我們的高中生在街頭上在學校上為了我們國家的公共政策站出來論述"},{"start":88.769,"end":112.636,"text":"我想確實很多的時候我們看到我們現在年輕人對國家發展的一個關心公共政策的一些關心事實上真的是比以前有更多的一些關懷的心這某種相當程度我們是應該要給肯定表示我們教育在鼓勵獨立思考在追求這個民主"},{"start":114.016,"end":114.036,"text":"﹚吳沛憶"},{"start":134.602,"end":134.782,"text":"吳沛憶委員"},{"start":150.467,"end":178.991,"text":"那所以呢今天也必須要跟部長討論的也就是我們的青年基本法青年基本法近期教育部才召開了公聽會其中兩項是我們收集到民間的意見第一點就是我們希望在法治裡面青年基本法來明定是支持青年政策的參與另外也希望要有更多的跟學生直接對話的平台所以首先我想要請問部長的是我們青年基本法來明定鼓勵青年政策參與"},{"start":179.956,"end":181.008,"text":"這個方向你是認同的嗎?"},{"start":182.688,"end":183.648,"text":"關於我們跟青年直接來對話的這個平台,教育部目前有沒有在規劃當中?"},{"start":211.62,"end":240.123,"text":"我想我們現在事實上這個跟委員報告我們現在的網路很多的這個管道事實上都是可以來納入這個聽這個年輕人的聲音我也建立了青年參與政策的一些機制從中央到地方事實上都是有的甚至我們看到地方還有一些青年發展局這些正式的組織的成立都是希望能夠有更多的鼓勵年輕人共同關心這一塊土地"},{"start":241.224,"end":264.133,"text":"當然因為我們有清法署所以關於青年事務相關的這些業務跟規劃一直都是有但現在之所以希望能夠制定青年基本法就是希望把相關的權利義務以及對象我們把它名定其屬例如我今天要直接具體的提三點的建議第一個目前我們教育部的主張關於青年的年齡定義是在18歲到45歲"},{"start":265.493,"end":292.44,"text":"我的建議是我們應該要參考聯合國的標準把它放寬下修到15歲尤其是我們現在看到高中生對於公共的參與有絕對的熱切也有絕對的能力所以我希望既然我們要去打開政府跟青年對話的平台不要把高中生排除在之外第二點是我們的政治參與其實當然有很多的形式過去親府會時期當時的"},{"start":294.5,"end":299.785,"text":"主委是我們現在的副院長鄭麗君他當時力推的是審議民主那這幾年我自己在地方議會都看到了很多是參與式預算實的實作行政院有推動了V台灣的現象政策等等討論的經驗所以我要說的是我們當然有非常多的平台可以讓青年來參與但是千萬不要讓青年淪為我們政府的樣板"},{"start":319.742,"end":325.807,"text":"也就是說青年的參與青年的意見我們必須實質的讓他去可以導入我們決策的過程這才叫做父權不是說開會的時候找個青年代表來簽個名就會議結束的結論還是都是依照我們部裡依照我們政府的版本來去做那這個就叫做青年樣板不叫做青年政策參與所以我希望教育部未來再訂定不管是青年國師會議還是相關的機制務必要把父權"},{"start":349.005,"end":372.231,"text":"參與決策這一項非常重要的要件要把它納入第三點就是我們看到了不管是大學的學生社團還是高中生的學生社團其實發展都越來越蓬勃但我希望我們把社團也要當作我們正式教育的一環但目前我看到我們教育部在政策上面支持學生社團的政策工具是少之又少我自己在高中參加"},{"start":373.891,"end":373.911,"text":"﹚吳沛憶"},{"start":389.443,"end":397.988,"text":"我們的體育署是要升格為體育部那這個呢不只是我們賴清德總統競選期間的政見也是我個人參選立委的時候提出來的政見尤其是我在台北市擔任市議員的時候就注意到我們台北市的運動產業規模是快速的增加以健身房為例2013年的時候只有149間到2023年已經是幾倍數的成長樓來到超過900間這個會有什麼問題"},{"start":417.6,"end":417.62,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":441.789,"end":441.809,"text":"吳沛憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶憶"},{"start":466.482,"end":466.502,"text":"﹚吳沛憶"},{"start":496.28,"end":502.325,"text":"同博的變化所以我希望我們在做組織改造的時候必須要把運動產業要把它很仔細的去考量進去所以說我想請問部長目前對於體育署升格為體育部我們有沒有一個時間表"},{"start":513.342,"end":514.002,"text":"有沒有一個時間表?"},{"start":538.833,"end":547.016,"text":"7月7月會大概在北中南東分區去座談然後也許8月就開始針對這些座談的社會廣廳社會好所以我們預計7月份會來舉辦座談"},{"start":553.138,"end":556.101,"text":"這座談是跟民間團體相關的實務界的來座談這非常重要我認為過去我們文化部我們法定是要求要舉辦全國文化會議我認為我們也應該要舉辦全國體育會議那如果部長我就是要提醒你這一點"},{"start":569.855,"end":593.063,"text":"﹗"},{"start":593.123,"end":596.227,"text":"所以切記我們一定要充分的跟民間溝通討論看見產業需求看見選手需求再來做我們綜合相關的規劃可不可以做得到"},{"start":603.905,"end":620.778,"text":"當然這個廣聽民意然後做出一個更好的一個這個升格的一個規劃那是我們努力的目標再來是我們的體育預算因為我們副院長昨天也說體育預算應該要來增加我就想要請問我們張亮次長因為我知道過去你一直在關心我們的這個運動發展基金的編列過去我們的執行率已經好不容易有達到來九成"},{"start":629.824,"end":646.41,"text":"但是我們的收入的決算每次都是低估能不能請問為什麼會這樣子呢我其實在擔任委員的時候我也對這個預算尤其是基金的預算公務的預算的比例也曾經建議過當然現在我在部裡面我們會盡量來爭取這個除了我們那個基金預算以外我們的公務預算也能夠年年成長"},{"start":655.513,"end":675.628,"text":"是,因為預算就是要何時編列,已經連年都是低估了,所以我希望我們未來要來精確的去評估從2016到2024年應該是從大概七八十億的規模已經成長到一百三十幾億那明年因為現在開始在編明年的預算,那明年的預算預計也會繼續成長"},{"start":677.509,"end":693.058,"text":"那再來呢最後我想要請教我們葉市長因為我自己個人國小參與的是410當時教改一個實驗班那我在台北市議會的時候也是來推動台北市實驗教訓中心的成立那我知道"},{"start":693.878,"end":705.282,"text":"業次長你說你所辦的這第一批的非學校實驗教育機構已經有學生是大學生了他們也回來跟你聊天所以過去我們這些年來的經驗實驗教育三法修法之後這些經驗你認為未來我們教育部要怎麼樣來支持實驗教育"},{"start":711.631,"end":731.022,"text":"我想實驗教育是臺灣的教育我覺得一個蠻難得的一個果實那我想比如以去年來講的話之前這個東京都政府他們其實派了一群官員來臺灣參訪就是特別想要來看實驗教育我想臺灣的實驗教育其實做到已經連日本一些我覺得他們都在這件事情"},{"start":731.542,"end":759.626,"text":"但回過頭來我覺得在這10年下來確實有一些我覺得我們未來可以一起再努力的目標比如說舉例來講像實驗教育有很多時候最大的一個挑戰就是包括一些空間這些很多的問題事實上比如說像在學校裡面這些簽約租約都是要一年一簽這對實驗教育都有非常大的壓力那再包括比如說像這個數位資訊的這些的support這些其實它如果不是一個正常的學校的話它要申請這些其實有時候也都會受到"},{"start":760.026,"end":777.022,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":777.022,"end":797.056,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":797.056,"end":823.353,"text":"﹗"},{"start":823.413,"end":835.982,"text":"好部長我必須要說我今天相當失望的是在我們教育部整本報告裡面我沒有看到我們對實驗教育政策方向的說明那過去為什麼我們在台北市地方政府要推動一個中心就是我們發現這個主責承辦的單位他是分成國小國中高中但可能實驗教育機構有一所他就是國小國中高中是貫穿的所以我希望在我們的部門當中其實有一個整體的大腦"},{"start":848.49,"end":857.892,"text":"﹗"}]}},{"id":"153015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b37f58e5f855c2e2d25186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9ea9aca9ef832b00ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:06:25 - 11:13:10","影片長度":"00:06:45","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":405,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:13:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T11:06:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.63534375,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.03096875,"end":27.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.50346875,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.579093750000002,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.337843750000005,"end":37.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.44284375,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.94471875,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.94409375,"end":46.049093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.690343750000004,"end":56.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.634093750000005,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.98409375000001,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.29596875,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.34159375,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.74971875,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.69034375000001,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":82.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.87034375,"end":87.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.59534375000001,"end":89.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.26596875,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.31034375,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.60971875000001,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.53346875000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.13221875,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.10221875,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.54471875,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.02784375000002,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.91784375,"end":132.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.87096875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.22096875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.95784375,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.42534375,"end":151.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.53471875,"end":159.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.46159375000002,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.17846875,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.15284375000002,"end":169.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.52346875,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.53159375,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.52721875,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.70346875,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.79159375,"end":183.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.08659375000002,"end":195.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.67971875,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.08846875,"end":199.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.99971875,"end":202.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.80534375000002,"end":201.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.26096875000002,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.46721875,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.66096875000002,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.99409375000002,"end":209.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.79534375,"end":217.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.88721875000002,"end":218.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.28784375,"end":219.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.40159375000002,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.18159375000002,"end":226.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.69596875000002,"end":229.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.35784375,"end":239.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.82471875000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.40221875,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.51159375,"end":246.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.65471875000003,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.88221875000002,"end":251.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.53596875000002,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.69534375,"end":260.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.49659375000005,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.77471875000003,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.72346875,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.27034375,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.45534375,"end":281.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.09659375,"end":283.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.47596875,"end":285.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.72034375000004,"end":287.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.65659375,"end":291.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.31846875,"end":295.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.90034375000005,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":307.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.64096875,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.98659375,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.05784375,"end":315.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.23471875,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.63096875,"end":319.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.40284375000005,"end":337.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.85409375,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.54346875000005,"end":339.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.39971875000003,"end":341.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.81721875,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.70284375,"end":346.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.30159375,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.97659375,"end":354.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.26284375,"end":354.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.50721875000005,"end":364.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.54784375,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.02784375000005,"end":373.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.62659375000004,"end":377.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.77784375000005,"end":377.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.86221875,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.46971875,"end":387.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.50346875,"end":378.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.27409375,"end":398.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.16721875,"end":400.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.95971875000004,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.97659375,"end":403.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.33096875,"end":402.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.57971875000004,"end":405.33471875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":20.86,"end":40.916,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。好,請何部長。委員好。部長好。今天審查這個就業服務法第46條條文的修正草案很多的版本。是。我們先看這個就業服務法第46條。"},{"start":44.44,"end":56.735,"text":"第一項第十款為因應國家重要建設工程或經濟社會發展需要經中央主管機關指定之工作這個是現行條文"},{"start":60.506,"end":80.392,"text":"這個112年3月6號這個我們看這個勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組第35次會議記錄這個當時的陳昭吉委員昭吉的名人蔡副昭吉人孟良代理這個主持這個會議這裡面在112年3月6號的這個會議裡面"},{"start":87.979,"end":112.535,"text":"特別提到為了因應原則同意營造業引進營造移工採階段性先行開放總額8000名並視實施執行期可增加到1.5萬名的一個外籍勞工然後合佩率合佩比例為30%合計最高不得超過40%"},{"start":114.848,"end":126.854,"text":"這樣的一個就是當然跟這個相關就業服務法46條授權訂定的這個工作資格及審查標準你們也做了修正。"},{"start":128.092,"end":146.882,"text":"然後相關的這些本來9393年一月十三號的這個標準是總金額在新台幣兩萬元以上你們也把它修正為總金額新台幣一億元剛剛本來是兩億現在一億元以上就可以了大大的放寬了"},{"start":149.483,"end":161.379,"text":"好,重點是說這個這幾年來這八年多來修正了十八次修正了十八次非常的頻繁那我們看這個這裡面"},{"start":165.185,"end":182.924,"text":"我的重點就是說民國九十三年一月十三號定定發布這個外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準一開始的條文"},{"start":184.365,"end":207.779,"text":"外國人受第十七條僱主聘僱從事營造工作僱主已取得初次招募許可後每禁用原住民一人得申請引進外國人兩人那我們現在這幾年這個營造業確實切功沒有錯但是原住民的"},{"start":209.125,"end":220.494,"text":"施業率還是很高。原住民跟非原住民的施業率還是很高。原住民的還是很高。所以但是111年4月30日"},{"start":224.229,"end":246.338,"text":"你們把這個條文刪除了沒有原住民的保障的條款所以這個部分對原住民主而言要引進外籍勞工從事營造業我們不反對我們也支持但是我們的就業的機會為什麼要刪除所以這個部分"},{"start":247.734,"end":275.037,"text":"我也曾經在去年質詢了前任的部長。我也質詢了。勞動部部長,我特別質詢是不是能夠回復這個條文。部長的回答,喜民村部長的回答。這個部分我們再來評估演繹,能夠回復這個條文。"},{"start":277.281,"end":291.497,"text":"但是回復了結果什麼都沒有提到。寫了一大堆。都沒有提到回復還是不回復。都沒有提到。《絕符法二十四條》明定。"},{"start":293.379,"end":315.165,"text":"要保障原住民的就業因為原住民的失業率一直都很高所以這個部分要保障但是現在把這個原來的保障條款刪除了本席根據盧憲伊我有連署盧憲伊的版本"},{"start":316.257,"end":343.282,"text":"他的版本這裡特別提到但這個第46條有針列但書但前項第九款是家庭康復工其被康復者既有原住民身份者其評估與認定方式應會同衛生福利部及原住民組委員會定制這個你們知此重要的重要的被你們刪除的條文"},{"start":344.755,"end":363.74,"text":"我提出修正動議所以增加第46條的這一款增加最後一項營造業僱主一項第十款規定聘僱外國人以取得招募許可後每禁用原住民一人"},{"start":364.56,"end":387.321,"text":"或者是向原住民族,如果他沒有辦法禁用原住民,他要願意繳綜合發展基金的貸金。講貸金,得先請引進外國人兩人。所以這個不可能比原來的條文,被刪除的條文還好。所以請這個勞動部能夠支持。以上,可以嗎?"},{"start":388.531,"end":402.317,"text":"委員我們這個要評估一下喔因為就46條是規範就醫標準資格的跟這個很內涵這個法制上可能有點沒有問題我寫法律的沒有問題老公也好謝謝好謝謝鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"153014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b30ec6ef67a6379ff25186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e8c7b53aa0ac7e4265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"10:54:02 - 11:06:16","影片長度":"00:12:14","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":734,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:06:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:54:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.995968750000001,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":75.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.17096875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.39034375,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.44096875000001,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.55409375,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.24159375,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.25409375000001,"end":84.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.27096875000001,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.08409375000001,"end":119.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.57346875,"end":122.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.63221875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.71221875,"end":123.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.47159375000001,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.34034375,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.06471875000003,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.77659375000002,"end":229.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.96971875000003,"end":230.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.07096875000002,"end":230.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.34096875,"end":230.37471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.72909375,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.79659375000003,"end":232.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.95659375000002,"end":242.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.25971875000002,"end":237.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.29346875000002,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.31034375000002,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.76096875000002,"end":256.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.87346875000003,"end":255.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.58159375,"end":269.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.34346875,"end":284.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.86221875,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.38534375,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.23534375,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.95659375,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.25159375000004,"end":308.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.06284375,"end":311.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.50534375,"end":316.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.24721875,"end":329.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.47471875,"end":319.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.03846875000005,"end":331.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.07221875000005,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.79346875000005,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.57471875000005,"end":357.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.03784375000004,"end":367.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.63596875,"end":367.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.77096875,"end":367.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.78784375000004,"end":367.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.85534375000003,"end":367.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.93971875,"end":372.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.95659375,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.03659375,"end":369.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.28971875,"end":369.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.44159375000004,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.42784375,"end":412.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.34284375000004,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.69159375000004,"end":390.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.33034375000005,"end":406.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.89471875000004,"end":458.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.57784375000006,"end":443.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.73784375,"end":445.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.49159375000005,"end":454.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.98034375000003,"end":459.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.17846875000004,"end":467.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.82284375,"end":469.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":482.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.77409375,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.97659375,"end":483.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.10721875,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.71034375000005,"end":490.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.10659375000006,"end":492.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.87409375000004,"end":491.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.62909375000004,"end":506.21346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.55221875,"end":499.49721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.56784375,"end":508.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.75284375,"end":510.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.97221875,"end":512.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.13659375,"end":513.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.57096875,"end":513.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.67221875,"end":526.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.5815937500001,"end":536.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.9765937500001,"end":539.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.01409375,"end":543.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.39346875,"end":544.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.35534375,"end":544.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.23284375,"end":546.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.2578437500001,"end":549.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.1184687500001,"end":547.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.86909375,"end":550.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.8647187500001,"end":559.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.94346875,"end":561.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.3315937500001,"end":566.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.5672187499999,"end":564.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.47846875,"end":590.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.33534375,"end":616.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.52534375,"end":643.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.08221875,"end":644.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.17909375,"end":663.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.8428437500002,"end":667.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.1797187500001,"end":670.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.21346875,"end":669.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.0359687499999,"end":721.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.9509687500001,"end":673.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.98471875,"end":674.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.6765937499999,"end":674.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.62221875,"end":698.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.6059687500001,"end":730.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.0559687500001,"end":732.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.17784375,"end":734.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.88659375,"end":734.9709687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.239,"end":12.989,"text":"呃麻煩請勞動呃我們何部長好請何部長"},{"start":16.417,"end":38.019,"text":"委員好部長好就這一次的舊福法修法有一個重點在於這個巴士量表要不要作為評估果人健康照顧聘用外勞的需求標準那本席有幾個問題要請教那首先是這個問題涉及到醫療專業它對於衛福部的報告你們都有仔細的看過嗎有"},{"start":40.561,"end":51.831,"text":"衛福部有說超過80歲的國人大約有91萬人其中重症有健康照顧的比例是41.7%也就是說總共大約有531902人沒有照顧的需求"},{"start":58.677,"end":75.742,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":76.067,"end":99.275,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":99.275,"end":118.899,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":119.74,"end":130.868,"text":"所以這種狀況是不能排除啦不能排除好那我再請教一下部長就是這個外籍看護工的這個救安基金每個月是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":132.122,"end":151.524,"text":"二千好那這個外籍幫傭的是多少五千哇這個有做功課今天有準備的不錯那我們來看一下簡報這個外籍看護的人數有二十三萬六千人那這個外籍幫傭僅僅只有兩千人所以這個社福外"},{"start":152.505,"end":167.613,"text":"攝護外勞可以停留最多14年來計算的話呢外籍看護14年雇主要繳交給這個勞動部的一共是33萬6千元那照顧小孩居多的這個外籍幫傭是84萬元兩種職類的這個救安基金費"},{"start":172.176,"end":188.695,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":189.147,"end":214.239,"text":"也就是即便符合這個外籍幫佣的申請在這個差額的趨勢上也不少人會想盡辦法就是把它改成申請外籍看護所以那個政府在這個救安基金費的這個設計上變成是有變相的這種誘導民眾去違法之嫌那而80歲免憑可申請外勞的話將來呢"},{"start":218.1,"end":242.313,"text":"這種就是說違法聘戶的情形反而就是說我們預估啦其實會有增無減所以勞動部到時候這種事情發生的時候你們有能力去處理嗎是委員這也是我們擔心的事情啊就是您剛剛所講的八十歲以上免貧的話有五十三萬的這種健康會員健康人口對那會是一個潛在的需要引進的數量嘛對不對有可能的"},{"start":242.773,"end":264.087,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":264.507,"end":286.265,"text":"這我們有另外一塊我剛剛所講的移工引進這一個長照服務這樣子對。 那我們今天換個角度來想這個外籍幫優的人數既然不多那即便每個月少繳三千元其實你們回去自己算一算真的不多那似乎對於這個整個的這個救安基金的水庫也影響不大"},{"start":287.006,"end":311.228,"text":"所以我想要請教就是說我們是否今天我要替我們這個國家這個少子化的這個危機我們都可以來盡一點努力啦就是我們如果將這個攝服外籍勞工的救安基金費用把它調整一致不知道那個部長看法如何?委員你是指說家庭幫用下調嗎?"},{"start":312.549,"end":328.89,"text":"跟外籍看護一致。都調成一樣的兩千元。他是這樣啦。他當時的設計因為家庭邦庸為什麼會比較高。其實他只要他做的工作內容、內涵其實是跟"},{"start":330.111,"end":354.08,"text":"但是因為我剛剛前面我講的是沒錯有很多就因為外籍看護比較便宜比較好請然後他們甚至很多都變成去做幫用的事了這個其實當然也不這是絕對也是違法的啦啊事實上您講的是一個目前有確實有存在現象這個我承認不過呢是不是家庭幫用這一塊的費用要下調其他人數是很少啦"},{"start":354.48,"end":376.476,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":376.636,"end":391.843,"text":"說她生六個,但是她回去就生了第七個。那一位媽媽還把小孩子,我們有請她到現場來現身說法嘛。那你雖然不鼓勵,但是人家有需要啦。而且現在我剛剛已經講了這個臺灣小子畫的這個"},{"start":394.224,"end":412.858,"text":" ️️️️️️"},{"start":412.858,"end":430.811,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":431.511,"end":458.058,"text":"已經生到第七個小孩我不知道會不會有第八個跑出來所以這個建議其實在這個財務上這個影響不是很大大家可以好好的去考慮一下那也未必說當然我這個是高標你調整一樣那當然你要下修沒有辦法一樣下修也沒有關係啊我想接下來我想就這個巴士量表的評估提出一些問題"},{"start":460.222,"end":481.901,"text":"在過去本席也有聽到說民眾反映巴士分太嚴格的意見。那我要請問就是說我們什麼時候開始使用這個巴士量表?三十年前吧。三十年前對。那這段期間巴士量表有沒有改版?我們用的是三十年前還是幾年前的版本還是這個是最新的版本?"},{"start":482.83,"end":508.69,"text":"我們這是國際標準啦所以我們現在才發展多元認定就是這樣好啦那國際如果沒有進步的時候我們也可以做先驅啊可是那個國際沒辦法那是醫學上的認定好反正我也點出這一點囉那其實就是說當初這個定下的這個八十分的依據是怎麼來的啊是哪一年決定的"},{"start":511.185,"end":539.065,"text":"來 我們設計人在這裡設計的人跟委員報告那個當初是我們跟衛福部齁本來是從他的這個失能程度是從一個所謂的完全依賴那一般完全依賴的概念過去就是八字量法20分以下但是因為這個坦白講標準太嚴格所以後來就放寬放寬到一個所謂嚴重依賴目前是用八字量法35分這個標準那現行就是依照這個標準那所以你是哪一年訂的嗎"},{"start":540.286,"end":558.604,"text":"這個大概在九十年那個時候。有這麼晚嗎?我查到的是八十一年耶。沒有沒有,一開始跟委員八十一年我們沒有採用八十兩條。這樣吼,九十年到現在也是很久啦。所以當年我們國人的健康問題,就是說當年的健康問題跟現在有一樣嗎?"},{"start":559.855,"end":578.37,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":579.15,"end":602.583,"text":"勞動部跟衛福部其實可以一起合作去洽詢相關的比如說醫學會啊那針對這個量表的評估認定在這個巴士量表的基礎上可以去改良修訂自己的評估方法那或者是說把這個評估的這個把這個標準的分數下修例如說下修到70分或者是更低等等"},{"start":603.663,"end":626.718,"text":"這樣總比你一下子全部拿掉要好啦大家就是各退一步嘛我們找一個比較合理的一個方式那最後我想就針對這個外籍勞工引進的意義提出我的看法啦在這個日本日本的這個高齡化是比我們早蠻多的那我所知道他們這個外勞的這個引進跟台灣有所不同首先是有這個專業的這個長照機構來引進的"},{"start":629.94,"end":644.497,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":645.196,"end":667.944,"text":"議員﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":668.206,"end":684.842,"text":"之前有收集議席因為我記得邱P也帶隊都有衛福部的勞動部我沒有印象衛福部是有隨行所以已經這個外籍勞工從事健康看護那涉及的這個層面還蠻廣的你知道勞動部、衛福部跟甚至內政部嘛"},{"start":685.723,"end":705.82,"text":"我是希望說我們各部會可以一起來努力好好的這個商定討論那最後我要特別謝謝部長就是在於我上次質詢有關於這個勞動檢查報告要和這個勞保局還有法人連線的部分部長很睿智的當下有裁示了"},{"start":706.84,"end":730.536,"text":" »:對於你們部裏面就是專屬裏面有立即著手準備的同仁們,那本席也希望說部長你可以給他們予以這個肯定跟鼓勵。但是對於極少數,我不曉得什麼原因還堅持不公開連線的高階主管呢?我也請部長可以留意,好好去了解到底中間有什麼貓膩好不好?謝謝。 »:好,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3ffab3a294d8f0228e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e75909e726ec8f6da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:48:50 - 11:04:02","影片長度":"00:15:12","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":912,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T11:04:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:48:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時49分）謝謝主席。有請教育部鄭英耀部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。上週質詢文化部時，我提到有民眾向我們陳情，巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺跟Apple這家公司的emoji（就是表情符號）高度相似。當時文化部回答，這個案子沒有向Apple的法律部門申請使用權。前幾天我再度接獲設計學院的教師陳情說，這個主視覺疑似在未取得國際奧委會授權的情況之下，使用了奧運五環標誌，而且可能做了一些有可能違反規定的修改。據瞭解，這位教師寫信向總統府陳情，陳情案件後來被轉到行政院，又因為體育是教育部主管事項，所以又被轉到教育部處理。部長，想請教你知不知道這件事？奧運五環有沒有版權？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，當然是有的。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，版權非常重要，智慧財產也非常重要。這個案子我們有沒有向國際奧會申請授權使用奧運五環的標誌，包含使用、二創以及再設計，有沒有申請？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們會請奧委會跟大會裡面接觸這個版權相關的一些問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：臺灣脫離制裁地獄已經有很長的時間，我們現在都非常重視設計原創。根據現行奧林匹克憲章第一章及第五章規定，奧林匹克五環是奧林匹克運動會的象徵，國際奧會專用標誌未經國際奧委會特別許可，任何團體或個人都不得將它用於廣告或者其他商業性活動，如果不是商業目的，則必須是奧運會的主辦城市、官方贊助商或授權商使用。麻煩進一步瞭解，我們目前使用這樣的設計或再設計、再修改，有沒有符合規定、有沒有符合授權機制？否則這個案子對我們的國際形象會有重大影響，也關乎未來中華奧會與國際奧會之間的合作關係。接下來是不是能夠請部長跟文化部共同釐清這個授權使用的問題，後續的處理能不能於一週內將書面報告提供給本席？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實只有臺灣奧委會可以使用這五個圈環，我們會跟文化部進一步瞭解，然後……"],["葛委員如鈞：是，我想好的設計大家都歡迎，但是在使用上面要符合文化及智財權的規範，否則的話很可能會給大家帶來一些麻煩，這都不是我們想看到的。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來想請教部長有關數位教育的問題，這幾天引起的話題，蔡前總統於任期倒數期間在臉書細數了8年內執政的成果，結果在教育面卻只提到了兩大重點，班班有冷氣、生生用平板，當然這是很好的政策，而這些主要都是花錢，花錢可能就有，當然執行過程也很耗心力，但是我想應該不會只有這個吧！引發了各界熱議，對於數位教育政策、硬體支援布建以及軟體的增進，或者甚至AI的導入到底是什麼，我們其實應該要有更宏觀、更前瞻的思維。翻開今天的業務報告，我當然要肯定教育部對於數位教育已經有明確的短期規劃，包含我先前質詢的時候一再提到的AI使用指引，在報告當中有明確地提到數位教學指引3.0，預計將納入人工智慧使用風險、生成式AI輔助教學的原則等等，預計在10月正式提出，我也非常期待。","我想接下來其實還不只是這些，McKinsey全球研究院也指出，有很多教師的時間大量地浪費在可以自動化的任務上，譬如批改作業、規劃課程等等，有沒有考慮能夠使用AI協助教師減輕行政工作，甚至協助第一線的教師逐步採用AI工具，協助他們的一些日常行政事務，請教部長，教育部目前的立場是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，確實我們目前跟國科會有發展EdTech，屬於我們自己研發出來的，未來就如委員所說，一定會是希望能夠用來減緩、紓解我們第一線許多的行政……"],["葛委員如鈞：行政嘛！好，這個部分也是希望就未來，瞭解一下自研和使用成熟的技術，或者廠商的這些服務，去fine tune、再修改或者再設計、再製作，到底哪個好、哪個不好，未來我們再一起研議，當然我想有這樣的精神還是很好的事。","另外也提醒教育部，教學現場的教與學也是密不可分，AI的使用指引，目前比較是以老師來做教學的規範，但是學生到底要怎麼樣做AI的使用原則，其實目前相對上比較不清楚。請教部長，教育部是否研議推出高中以下學生版的AI使用指引？之前有學生很會用AI，結果參加比賽被記了小過。學生未來無論是在學習或者競賽方面，甚至未來在入學考試，到底能不能用AI重新修整他的文字內容、能不能提出用AI畫的畫，他提出了以後有沒有要做標註、有沒有明確的AI使用原則可以依循，教育部會不會提出？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上我們目前不僅是有老師的輔助，對學生還有家長，我們事實上都有這個輔助的教學指引。"],["葛委員如鈞：在哪裡？指引在哪裡？"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是請司長來說明？"],["葛委員如鈞：學生用的喔！我們現在是國會殿堂喔！拜託！"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員報告，學生的部分我們在3.0的地方會特別再把……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以就是10月嘛！還沒推出啦！所以未來麻煩注意一下，謝謝。","這真的是要快一點，因為馬上就是升學季了。本席再次強調，不光是給老師的教學指引，學生真的也需要使用指引，請教育部對此進行研議，現在是5月份，我是希望能夠快一點，至少3個月內能不能有一個初步的結果，否則學生到底能不能用AI、怎麼用AI、可不可以用它來工作或做報告、要不要標註、能不能拿來升學？我們都不知道。","再請教一下教育部長，目前大學入學的備審資料以及學位論文的撰寫，有沒有明確規範到底能不能用生成式AI？規範為何？這一題應該很簡單，馬上就要學位考試了嘛！大家能不能用AI寫論文啊？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然是不行的！"],["葛委員如鈞：確定嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前沒有規範，但是有一些……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長要確認喔！這個講出來很嚴重喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，大概用ChatGPT去協助做許多資料的蒐集或者有一些……"],["葛委員如鈞：我請它幫我優化我的論文段落，可不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：這當然是可以的啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：剛剛說不行，現在可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有、沒有，我的意思是當然不可以整本……"],["葛委員如鈞：好、好，我們現在只是在對話，那教育部有沒有推出一個完整的說明放在官網還是哪裡？還是我們就是要等10月？一切都等10月？是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們有一個AI的工作圈，會後我們會把……"],["葛委員如鈞：儘快研議一下！為什麼？現在國際上對這件事情的討論已經非常多了。昨天有一則新聞報導computer science裡面的論文大概17.5%都有AI參與的痕跡，而且它未必有標註。所以到底我們的規範是什麼？到底一篇論文合理使用生成式AI的比例是多少？是30%、50%、60%，還是90%？教育部應該要明確規範。而且，到底有沒有要標示？像以前我們在網路上查資料，以後都要放到reference，最早期的時候沒有規定，大家不一定放，但是現在有了規定，大家都要放。可是AI的指引是完全沒有的！我們沒有任何規範！還是APA格式有修正？這部分教育部能不能把相關的細節早一點公開，讓大家知道？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，涉及學術倫理的東西我們會加速來做。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們真的不希望過了幾十年之後，大家又忽然回來找說誰、誰、誰的論文是AI寫的，結果影響到這些人的選舉或被選舉權，這都不是我們想要看到的。","也提醒一下部長，目前教育部沒有給予各大學官方認定的AI生成比對工具，所以造成什麼問題呢？第一線教師要用肉眼去審查學生是不是有使用生成式AI的痕跡，同時學生很可能也沒有相關的規範來告訴他能用或不能用，使得可能會違背了所謂的平權的精神，家境比較好的學生用了付費版的GPT或者是付費版的AI，他的東西做出來特別漂亮、特別好看、閱讀起來特別流暢，結果呢？免費版的東西做得就比較爛。甚至現在開始有GPT的apps，結果呢？只有付費版的學生可以使用！請教一下部長，教育部有沒有可能迅速提出AI生成比對工具的認證清單來供各大專院校參考使用，讓教師擺脫用肉眼來看到底誰是人、誰是AI？能不能做到這件事？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會透過這個工作圈來請大專院校的委員看怎麼樣從專業觀點來做一些更清楚的規範。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我想AI真的是一直在變，希望教育部接下來能整合一個非常棒的團隊，而且因為是AI內閣嘛，我們趕快來做一些指引，讓大家有跡可循。","接下來要談的是我對高教教學品質的擔憂，因為我過去也在學校裡面。根據監察院110年的調查，109年全國大專院校兼任教師超過4萬人，近20年的漲幅高達56%，有一個超級可怕的數據：目前兼任和專任教師逼近1比1，而且過半的私立大專院校兼任教師比重高達五成以上，甚至有的私立大專院校高達八成以上。當然你從好處看，可以說海納百川，我們有很多人才，但是現在的招生人數逐年下降，光112年度就有九千八百多位教師未獲續聘，其中本來沒有本職、沒有其他的工作，只靠終點費維生的人就高達20%。教育部號稱今年幫公立大學兼任師資調漲鐘點費，三十年來第一次調整，就教授等級，日間從每小時995元變成1,035元；最多的是講師級，其實就是兼任講師，從725塊調到755塊，增加30塊錢，茶葉蛋已經漲了200%，結果這些人的時薪竟然只調3%不到。部長認為這樣的薪資調幅，3顆茶葉蛋的金額，有助於提升大學的教學品質嗎？您知道這件事嗎？您覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想跟委員坦白從寬，在這個部分我還沒有那麼熟悉，但是怎麼樣確保這些兼任老師的授課不要疲於奔命，而能夠提升、確保學生的學習品質，這是我們在努力的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我想跟您分享，63所私立技專院校當中，有51所落後於當年度公立學校的支給標準，占比高達81%。我再講一次，這三十年間茶葉蛋從一顆5塊漲到15塊，漲幅高達200%，結果我們現在竟然只給他們調薪3%，這可能不是我們想要看到的，尤其私校目前又遇到很多財政的問題。教育部說要補助七成私校、調整兼任教師的鐘點費，但是體察教育現場狀況，仍有高達六成五以上私校的兼任教師薪資水準低於公校兼任教師，顯見目前的補助機制是力有未逮。請教部長，教育部能不能權衡私校財務的情形，研議私校的兼任講師鐘點費由教育部全額補助，調至當年度公立大專院校兼任教師鐘點費的支給標準，有沒有機會討論？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們鼓勵民間興學，怎麼樣確保學生的受教品質，這是我們一直在努力的。但是就獎勵民間興學，相當程度上它也應該有一定的承諾，政府在財政上來看，我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們有退稅喔！財政上不一定如你想像中的困難。不好意思插您的話，您可以講完。"],["鄭部長英耀：確實這一個部分要全額補助，就財政來講，我們也許可以評估，看它的……至少鼓勵私校，能夠拉提鐘點費，這是我們努力的目標。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，我想不只拉齊，我認為這個調薪的幅度真的太低了，我們能不能也拉齊現在茶葉蛋的價格？今天我特地帶來了3粒茶葉蛋要送給部長和兩位新上任的次長，次長也是我的偶像。我想提醒3位，教育政策一定要接地氣，苦學生所苦、苦家長所苦，接下來我們還要面對來自AI的全球挑戰。教育部雖然以補助方式鼓勵私立大專院校提升鐘點費，但現況卻還是有很多落後，而且非常重要的一點，真的是要依法、依學校的財務發展情形而同步調升。我們剛剛提到兼任教師薪資被壓抑的這個狀況，已經有監察院提出了不符合憲法，而且也不符合教師待遇條例，以及專科以上學校兼任教師聘任辦法等等所應保障教育工作者生活的意旨。接下來學校又要收場，這些人變得沒有工作，過去他們已經損失了很多，現在還要失去更多。兼任教師沒有保障、薪水又低，卻和全職教師人數相當、一比一，在教育現場承擔相同的教育工作，希望部長以及部長的整個團隊可以一起來全面提升高教品質，一定要改善兼任教師的薪資待遇，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。謝謝部長，請回座。","不過我忍不住還是要說，在私立大學裡面，4個兼任老師等於一個專職老師，這也是促成目前比例一比一的非常重要的原因，所以在幫私校兼任老師提升的時候，專任老師的名額，我覺得這也是高教非常重要的問題，好不好？謝謝。","吳沛憶委員質詢完畢之後，我們就會休息5分鐘。接下來請登記第9號的吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.14284375,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.29846875,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.891593750000002,"end":28.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.87034375,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.83659375,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.98846875000001,"end":83.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.22471875000001,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.27534375,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.66346875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.42284375,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.43971875000001,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.69284375000001,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.90159375,"end":99.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":114.79784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.91596875,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.51034375,"end":175.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.12159375000002,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.52471875,"end":188.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.54159375,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.28971875,"end":308.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.57346875,"end":368.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.22221875,"end":377.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.92971875,"end":378.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.22909375,"end":380.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.15284375000005,"end":382.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.72221875,"end":382.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.00909375000003,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.04284375000003,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.05971875,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.39721875000004,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.97096875,"end":384.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.07221875000005,"end":384.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.25784375,"end":384.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.27034375000005,"end":385.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.28721875,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.04659375,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.02534375000005,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.90284375000005,"end":387.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.91971875,"end":388.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.32471875000005,"end":388.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.34159375,"end":388.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.39221875000004,"end":388.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.40909375,"end":396.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.64846875,"end":438.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.10971875,"end":442.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.52721875000003,"end":453.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.94909375000003,"end":445.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.63159375000004,"end":450.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.89284375000005,"end":453.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.24284375,"end":453.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.39471875000004,"end":453.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.81659375000004,"end":453.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.83346875,"end":469.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.18971875000005,"end":469.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.45971875000004,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.92784375,"end":473.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.94034375,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.03596875000005,"end":484.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.83284375000005,"end":488.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.96721875000003,"end":534.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.5590937500001,"end":541.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.99284375,"end":604.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.93221875,"end":615.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.5972187500001,"end":707.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.9709687500001,"end":709.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.32096875,"end":709.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.43471875,"end":710.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.45159375,"end":725.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.75721875,"end":731.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.6128437500001,"end":784.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.2922187500001,"end":786.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.10221875,"end":786.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.4397187500001,"end":805.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":805.37346875,"end":806.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":806.60534375,"end":810.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.17909375,"end":809.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.26284375,"end":814.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.19909375,"end":822.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.68721875,"end":822.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.4128437500001,"end":832.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.47471875,"end":832.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.5422187500001,"end":832.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.9640937500001,"end":909.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.6272187500001,"end":910.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":911.6015937500001,"end":911.97284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.578,"end":15.462,"text":"謝謝主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長好請鄭部長"},{"start":31.158,"end":47.835,"text":"上週質詢文化部的時候我有提到有民眾向我們澄清巴黎文化奧運台灣館的主視覺跟Apple這家公司的emoji表情符號高度相似的當時文化部回答這個案子是沒有向Apple的法律部門申請使用權"},{"start":49.456,"end":55.118,"text":"結果前幾天我再度又接獲了設計學院的教師陳琴說這個主視覺疑似在未取得國際奧委會授權的情況之下使用了奧運五環的標誌而且可能做了一些有可能違反規定的一些修改"},{"start":64.742,"end":79.962,"text":"據瞭解這位教師寫信向總統府陳情陳情案件後來被轉到行政院又因為體育是教育部的主管事項所以又被轉到教育部來處理部長想請教一下你知不知道這件事奧運五環有沒有版權"},{"start":83.059,"end":97.678,"text":"跟委員報告這當然是有的是喔很好我們這個版權是非常重要智慧財產也是非常重要那這個案子呢我們有沒有向國際奧會申請授權使用奧運五環的標誌包含使用以及二創以及再設計有沒有申請"},{"start":108.004,"end":130.553,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們會請奧委會這一個來跟這一個大會裡面來接觸來接洽這一個版權的一些相關的問題我想我們台灣已經脫離這個制裁地域已經很長的時間了我們現在都非常重視這個設計原創根據現行奧林匹克憲章第一章跟第五章的規定奧林匹克五環是奧林匹克運動會的象徵國際奧會的專用標誌"},{"start":133.134,"end":152.516,"text":"未經國際奧委會特別許可,任何團體或個人都不得將它用於廣告或者其他商業性的活動。如果不是商業目的,則必須是奧運會的主辦程式,官方贊助商或授權商使用。麻煩進一步了解,我們目前使用這樣的一個設計或再設計或再修改,"},{"start":153.197,"end":172.008,"text":"有沒有符合規定有沒有符合授權的機制否則呢這個案子對我們的國際形象會有重大的影響也會關乎未來中華奧會跟國際奧會之間未來的合作關係那我想接下來是不是能夠請這個部長還有這個跟文化部一起共同釐清這個授權使用的問題那後續的處理能不能將一週內將書面報告提供為本席"},{"start":176.255,"end":186.836,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒,確實只有奧委會,台灣的奧委會可以使用這一個五個圈環,那我們會跟文化部來進一步來瞭解"},{"start":188.758,"end":217.271,"text":"我想好的設計大家都歡迎但是在使用上面要符合文化以及符合制裁權的規範否則的話很可能會給大家帶來一些麻煩這都不是我們想看到接下來想請教一下部長有關數位教育的問題這幾天引起的話題蔡前總統在任期倒數的期間在臉書細數了8年內執政的成果結果在教育面向卻只提到了兩個大重點斑斑有冷氣深深用平板當然這是很好的政策但是這些主要都是花錢"},{"start":218.211,"end":233.622,"text":"花錢可能就有當然執行過程有很耗心力但是我想應該不會只有這個吧那引發了各界熱議對於數位教育的政策硬體資源的部件還有我們的軟體的增進或者甚至AI的導入到底是什麼"},{"start":234.002,"end":234.022,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":257.123,"end":277.672,"text":"這次提出我也非常期待那我想接下來其實還不只是這些McKinsey的全球研究院也指出有很多的教師的時間大量的浪費在可以自動化的任務上比如說批改作業規劃課程等等有沒有考慮能夠使用AI來協助教師減輕行政工作"},{"start":278.172,"end":287.173,"text":"甚至來協助第一線的教師逐步採用AI工具來協助他們的一些日常的行政事務請教一下部長教育部目前的立場是什麼"},{"start":289.003,"end":307.856,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心確實我們現在目前跟國科會有發展這個EDE這個TECH那我想在這個屬於我們自己研發出來的未來他就如委員所說的他一定會是希望能夠用來減緩我們疏解我們第一線上的許多的行政"},{"start":308.977,"end":323.671,"text":"我想這個部分也是希望未來了解一下就是自研跟使用成熟的這些技術或者廠商的這些服務去finetune或再修改或再設計或再製作到底哪個好哪個不好我們之後未來再一起來研議那當然我想有這樣的精神還是很好的事"},{"start":326.514,"end":353.549,"text":"另外也提醒教育部教學現場的教跟學也是密不可分AI的使用指引目前比較是以老師來做教學的規範但是學生到底要怎麼樣做AI的使用原則其實目前是相對比較不清楚的請教一下部長教育部是否研議推出高中以下學生版的AI使用指引讓學生未來無論是在學習或者競賽我們之前有學生很會用AI結果參加比賽被記的小過"},{"start":354.89,"end":368.261,"text":"那甚至是未來入學考試上到底能不能用AI來重新修整他的文字內容能不能提出用AI化的話他提出了以後有沒有要做標注有沒有明確的AI使用原則可以運行教育部會不會提出呢在哪裡指引在哪裡學生用的喔"},{"start":385.339,"end":410.695,"text":"我們現在是國會殿堂喔最近我們拜託跟委員報告就是我們的學生的部分我們在3.0的地方會特別在所以就是10月嘛還沒推出啦所以未來麻煩注意一下謝謝這真的是要快一點因為馬上升學季嘛那本席再次強調啦不光是給老師的教學指引學生真的也需要使用指引請教育部對此進行研議現在是五月份嘛"},{"start":411.115,"end":436.117,"text":"我是希望能夠快一點啦能不能3月至少有一個初步的結果三個月內啦否則的話學生到底能不能用AI怎麼用AI他可不可以用它來做工作能不能做報告要不要標注能不能拿來升學我們都不知道那再來請教一下教育部長目前大學入學的備審資料及學位論文的撰寫有沒有規範有沒有明確的規範到底能不能用深層式的AI規範如何"},{"start":441.101,"end":446.303,"text":"這題應該很簡單阿馬上要那個學位考試了嘛大家能不能用AI寫論文阿這個當然是不行的確定嗎目前沒有規範但是有一些部長要確認喔這個這個講出來很嚴重喔跟委員報告大概用CHAT GPT去協助去許多資料的收集或者有一些這一個我請他幫我優化我的論文段落可不可以阿這當然是可以的"},{"start":469.792,"end":473.915,"text":"教育部有沒有推出一個完整的說明在官網還是在哪裡還是我們就是要等10月一切都等10月是這樣嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":485.021,"end":509.375,"text":"我都有一個AI的工作圈我們會把...盡快研議一下為什麼現在國際已經非常多在討論這個事情昨天出來的新聞Computer Science裡面的論文大概有17.5%都有AI參與的這個痕跡而且他未必有標注那到底我們的規範是什麼到底是一個論文的合理使用生成式的AI比例是多少"},{"start":509.855,"end":534.489,"text":"到底是30% 50% 60%還是90%教育部應該要來明確規範而且到底有沒有要標示像以前我們在網路上查資料以後都要放到reference最早期的時候沒有規定大家不一定放但是現在有了規定大家都要放可是AI的指引是完全沒有的我們沒有任何的規範還是APA格式有修正這個教育部能不能把這個相關的細節呢早一點公開讓大家知道"},{"start":535.818,"end":561.601,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想涉及到這一個學術倫理的東西我們要這個加速來做我們真的不希望過了幾十年之後大家又忽然回來找說誰誰誰的論文是AI寫的那結果影響到這些人的這個選舉或被選舉權這都不是我們想要看到的那也提醒一下部長目前教育部沒有給予這個各大學官方認定的AI生成比對的工具這造成什麼問題呢第一線教室要用肉眼去審查"},{"start":562.742,"end":578.238,"text":"學生是不是有使用生成式AI的痕跡同時學生很可能也沒有相關的規範來告訴他能用不能用使得可能會違背了所謂的平權的精神家境比較好的學生用了付費版的GPT或者付費版的AI"},{"start":578.598,"end":603.977,"text":"他的東西做出來特別漂亮特別好看特別閱讀起來特別流暢結果呢免費版的東西做的就比較爛甚至現在開始有這種GPT的apps結果呢只有付費版的學生可以使用請教一下部長教育部有沒有可能迅速的提出AI生成比對工具的認證清單來供各大專院校參考使用讓教師擺脫用肉眼來看到底誰是人誰是AI能不能做到這件事"},{"start":605.1,"end":627.471,"text":"我們會透過這個工作群裡邊來請大專業校裡邊我們這個委員來看怎麼樣從專業裡邊更清楚來做一些規範我想AI真的是一直在變我想希望真的是希望教育部接下來有一個整個非常棒的團隊都希望能夠又是AI內閣我們趕快來做一些指引讓大家有跡可循"},{"start":628.491,"end":648.176,"text":"再來我也要來談這個高教教學品質的擔憂因為我過去也在學校裡面根據監察院110年的調查109年全國大專院校的兼任教師超過4萬人近20年的漲幅高達56%有一個超級可怕的數據目前兼任跟專人的教師逼近1比1"},{"start":648.996,"end":674.31,"text":"而且過半以上的私立大專業院校兼任教師比重高達五成以上甚至有私立大專業院校有高達八成以上當然你從好處看你說我們有很多這個海納百川有很多的人才但是現在的招生人數逐年下降光112年度就有9800多位教師未獲續聘其中本來沒有本職沒有其他的工作只靠中典費維生的人就高達20%"},{"start":675.831,"end":686.559,"text":"教育部號稱今年幫公立大學兼任師資調漲終點費30年來第一次調整我們來看一下日間從每小時教授等級995變1035我們來看最多的講師其實就是兼任講師725塊調到755塊增加30塊錢"},{"start":695.265,"end":707.215,"text":"我們的茶葉蛋已經漲了200%結果這些人的時薪竟然只調3%不到部長您認為這樣的薪資調服三顆茶葉蛋有助於提升大學的教學品質嗎?您知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":711.176,"end":731.313,"text":"您覺得這樣合理嗎?我想跟委員坦白充寬在這個部分裡邊我並還沒有那麼熟悉但是怎麼樣確保這些堅韌的老師他的一個授課而不要疲於奔命而能夠提升這個確保這個學生的這個學習品質我想這是我們在努力的"},{"start":731.713,"end":756.69,"text":"好我想跟您分享這個51所啦63所的私立技專院校裡面63所當中有51所落後於當年度公立學校的知己標準占比高達81%我再講一次這30年間茶葉蛋從一顆五塊漲到15塊漲幅高達200%結果我們現在竟然只給他們調薪3%那我想這可能不是我們想要看到的尤其私校目前又遇到很多財政的這個問題"},{"start":757.771,"end":783.303,"text":"我想這個教育部有說要補助7成私校調整的兼任教師的終點費但是呢體察教育現場的狀況仍有高達6成5以上的私校兼任教師薪資水準低於公校兼任教師顯見目前的補助機制是利有未待想請教一下部長教育部能不能權衡私校財務的情形演繹私校兼任終點費由教育部全額補助至當年度公立大專院校兼任教師終點費的資金標準"},{"start":785.776,"end":809.701,"text":"委員報告我想我們鼓勵這個民間新學那怎麼樣去確保他的這個受教學生的受教品質這是一直我們努力的但是就獎勵民間新學他相當程度他也應該有一定的承諾那政府在這個財政上來看我想我們我們有退稅喔財政上不一定如你想像中的困難"},{"start":811.383,"end":822.175,"text":"好啦不好意思差您的話那您可以講完我想這一個部分確實要全額補助就財政來講它事實上是我們也許可以來評估看它的"},{"start":823.622,"end":840.169,"text":"至少拉起跟鼓勵這個私校然後能夠拉起這一個終點會我想這是我們努力的目標好 謝謝我想不只拉起我認為這個調薪的幅度真的太低了我們的這個能不能也拉起現代產業單的價格"},{"start":841.51,"end":868.974,"text":"今天我特地帶來的三粒茶葉蛋要來送給部長和兩位新上任的次長有次長也是我的偶像我想提醒三位教育政策一定要接地氣苦學生所苦苦家長所苦接下來我們還要面對來自AI全球的挑戰教育部雖然以補助方式去鼓勵私立大專院校提升終點費但現況卻還是有很多的落後而且有一個非常重要的點真的是要依法"},{"start":869.434,"end":888.764,"text":"一學校的財務發展情形來同步調升我們剛剛提到了這個兼任教師的薪資被壓抑的這個狀況已經有監察院提出了不符合憲法而且呢也不符合教師待遇條例及專科以上學校兼任教師的聘任辦法等等應該保障教育工作者的生活意志接下來學校要收場"},{"start":889.304,"end":889.424,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b349d1bc01b0195ea6fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e26c9e25eb9bfc2d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:39:16 - 10:56:13","影片長度":"00:16:57","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":1017,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:56:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:39:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，今天除了有關於追訴權時效的問題以外，其實我相信兩位應該很清楚，對於整個詐騙猖獗的狀況，在目前刑法第三百三十九條，或者是更具體的講第三百三十九條之四這個條文的法定刑我們已經規定到一年以上七年以下了，但大家真的在關心的是具體的實踐上到底發生了什麼事情。請兩位看一下，我在之前公聽會的時候就很清楚地點出來，臺版柬埔寨的主嫌「藍道」是怎麼樣從小弟到首腦，31個加重詐欺罪分成兩個審判程序，我們先看一下A案的審判程序，在2020年5月到6月的時候犯案，總共有12位被害人、12個加重詐欺罪，最後定執行刑出來，只有10個月，還給他易服勞動；在右手邊的另外一個審判程序，是他繼續地參與犯罪組織，共同詐騙了19位被害人，有19個加重詐欺罪，最後判刑2年、緩刑3年，連一天的牢都沒有坐過。針對這樣子刑事司法在個案當中實踐出來的結果，請教次長，站在法務部的立場能不能夠接受？"],["徐次長錫祥：第一，我們還是尊重法院的判決；第二，為了打擊這些詐騙集團，我們當然期待量刑上能夠符合被害人以及社會大眾的期待。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，當然每一個人都尊重法院的判決，但作為法律人，法院最後判決出來乃至於執行的結果，都是刑事司法體系當中的一環，我說的沒有錯吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：面對刑事司法體系實際運作的結果，我剛剛的問題是請教法務部，站在法務部的立場，我們國家要嚴肅地追訴詐欺犯罪這一件事情，這樣的結果對法務部而言能不能夠接受？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是尊重法院的判決，不過我們的立場還是希望能夠更具體……"],["黃委員國昌：現在有兩個層次，第一個，我為什麼問你能不能夠接受？如果這樣的結果從社會大眾的期待，從刑事法律不管是應報的功能、一般預防的功能，還是特別預防的功能，都沒有達到刑罰應該發揮的效果，這個時候我們應該誠實地面對、檢討，為什麼判決的結果會變成這個樣子？次長，您贊不贊同？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們贊同。現在……"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果你贊同的話請仔細看，在這個案子裡面，你覺得最嚴重的環節發生在什麼地方？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是定執行刑。"],["黃委員國昌：現在定執行刑，每一個詐欺犯罪每一罪的宣告從一年到一年八個月，最後總宣告刑是二十一年兩個月，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：在目前數罪併罰的法規當中，我們要以每一個宣告刑最高的當做底線，總宣告刑二十一年兩個月當作上限，在這個空間當中給法官裁量，我的說明有沒有錯誤？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛！作為一個立法者，當我們給法官這麼大的裁量權限，裁量出來的結果竟然是定執行刑兩年，這個會讓我們必須很嚴肅地面對一個問題──針對數罪併罰的部分，是不是給法官太多裁量權？有沒有必要修正？請教一下次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們在刑修會議裡面也做過討論。再來，我們也會在詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案第五十條規範，檢察官起訴的時候也會具體求刑。我們也……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，剛剛你所講的專法，依現行法檢察官可不可以具體求刑？"],["徐次長錫祥：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！所以就不要講空的。現在我在問的是，針對數罪併罰，把這麼大的裁量權交給法官，導致最後出來的結果是這個樣子，從法務部的立場，你們能不能夠接受？"],["徐次長錫祥：如果個案檢察官認為量刑過低的話，我們的確會再蒐集其他資料，依照法律程序提起……"],["黃委員國昌：就這個個案，你覺得檢察官應不應該覺得量刑過低？"],["徐次長錫祥：檢察官會認定個案。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我就在跟你講這個具體的案子，為什麼我會這樣說？這個是前案，這一位「藍道」還是小弟，只是這個犯罪組織其中的參與者，還沒有真正成為上面的領導人，但是要再往下看。剛剛的那一個判決，請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長看一下，2022年4月的時候全部判刑確定，犯罪時間方面，檢察官追訴的犯罪事實是在2020年，到2022年4月判刑確定。判刑確定以後，一個緩刑不用關，一個給他易服勞動，結果他在易服勞動的時候做了什麼事？發生了臺版柬埔寨案，從2022年8月到2022年11月，拘禁提供帳戶的人，凌虐他們，繼續進行詐騙。這一個案件檢察官什麼時候收網的，次長熟不熟？"],["徐次長錫祥：收網的時間我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：收網的時間我跟次長講……"],["徐次長錫祥：是士林地檢署偵辦的案子。"],["黃委員國昌：是，收網的時間是2022年11月，11月收網的時候杜承哲還沒有被抓到，其他的人先落網。好，沒有抓到他，但是臺版柬埔寨案已經被偵破，許多共犯都被抓，但是杜承哲跟其他幾個人跑了。在第一個案件當中，31個加重詐欺罪，這一位杜先生──「藍道」一天的牢都沒有坐，他在外面易服勞動的時候，在臺北、三重、淡水拘禁提供人頭帳戶的人，凌虐他們。2022年11月檢警收網，其他的人都被抓，這位杜先生還沒有被抓到。2023年3月，他繼續在臺中做什麼？繼續在臺中從事詐騙，而且拘禁人頭帳戶的提供者，用手銬、腳鐐的方式控制他們的行動自由，繼續從事詐騙。我們的刑事體系、我們的刑罰體系為什麼會讓整個社會大眾看到……不僅僅是詐騙犯，還是組織犯罪裡面的成員，還用凌虐的方式剝奪人的行動自由，讓他們可以一而再、再而三的犯案，毫無畏懼，這個是我們現在面臨的狀況。","我想要跟次長交換意見的事情是，法律人在修法的時候，不是只有單純地看法定刑怎麼調，你要看最後刑事司法實踐的結果到底是什麼，以及最後刑事司法實踐的結果，對於刑法要達成的目的，不管你採取的是什麼理論，有沒有實際實踐刑法要達成的目的？次長覺得有嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是有積極地安排教育訓練，要求檢察官督促法院量刑的程序，以符合罪刑相當的原則。"],["黃委員國昌：你們什麼時候開始教育訓練，做這樣的督促？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個一直以來我們都……"],["黃委員國昌：一直以來都有嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果一直以來都有的話，請問這一件事怎麼發生的？這個是在做完教育訓練以後，還是做完教育訓練以前？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們的公訴訓練是常態性的訓練，一直都有在做。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這樣的現實沒有讓你警覺到，公訴常態性的訓練沒有發揮效果嗎？還是你認為有發揮效果？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們尊重法官的判決，我們只能努力。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣真的太消極了，如果到今天你站在這邊還是尊重法官的……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：因為對立法者來講，我們要解決、要處理的問題非常的critical，現在一年以上七年以下搞出來是這個樣子。這樣實踐的結果，我老實跟次長報告，社會大眾沒有辦法接受，我也沒有辦法接受。那個不是立法委員是不是已經民粹地不斷調高刑度，而是我們看到實際實踐的結果，根本沒有辦法達到刑罰的功能。次長，你覺得我說的有沒有道理？"],["徐次長錫祥：委員講的有道理。"],["黃委員國昌：有道理，那我們接下來該怎麼辦？我們要提高法定刑嗎？還是繼續信賴法務部對於公訴檢察官所做的教育訓練？還是期待法官在量刑的時候，不會按照以前的方式，這樣繼續下去？我現在想要請教法務部跟司法院的是，如果這樣的結果，大家都沒有辦法接受，連您也沒有辦法接受，我們的solution、我們的解決方案是什麼？絕對不是在這邊說空話！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，這個檢察官要努力，法官這邊也應該有機會來做調整吧！"],["黃委員國昌：最後，因為時間的關係，這個案子到2022年收網的時候，第一波被抓了嘛！但他完全沒有在怕，沒有抓到他，他在臺中繼續幹，結果私刑拘禁，給人家上手銬、給人家上腳鐐。來，看一下，這個是法院最後判刑的結果，杜承哲宣告刑七個月，其他的六個月、六個月、四個月，全部易科罰金，等於是什麼？我把提供人頭帳戶的人用手銬腳鐐關起來，我所會付出的刑事處罰代價是多少錢？18萬到12萬。次長，這樣的結果，你可以接受嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們尊重法官的判決。"],["黃委員國昌：我們當然尊重法官的判決嘛！我的意思是，從執掌法務部的立場，我們在訴追不法犯罪的時候，這樣的結果你認為妥適嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會繼續努力……"],["黃委員國昌：你要如何努力？我相信你一定會繼續努力，現在我的問題是你要如何努力？你要如何努力改變這一個讓非常多的人沒有辦法接受的結果？這是我的問題。講空話沒有辦法解決問題，現在我的問題，我不是懷疑你努力的決心，我在請教的是你要如何努力？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們現在對於私刑拘禁，也有加重處罰。"],["黃委員國昌：再往下，一模一樣。他後來被抓到的，到2023年，我剛剛所講私刑拘禁的那個案子，又32個加重詐欺罪，詐欺的金額超過2,200萬，32個加重詐欺罪，又多了32個被害人，每一個宣告刑一年四個月到一年一個月，宣告刑合計四十七年九個月，這個還沒有定執行刑，但我有一點沒有辦法想像，這個定執行刑以後，定出來會多少？因為按照我們目前給法官的裁量權，定的執行刑，法官只要判一年十一個月以上就合法了嘛！我說的對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：會不會發生跟之前把他養大的那個案子一樣，要定兩年的執行刑，雖然他總宣告刑加起來已經四十七年了，面對這樣的狀況，我們當然都尊重司法個案的判決，但問題是，當給法官這麼大的裁量權，最後裁量出來的結果，從刑罰的目的、從最後要抑制詐騙犯罪，全部都沒有辦法達成效果的話，我們是不是應該要深切地檢討反省我們接下來該怎麼辦？次長，贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：我贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院贊不贊成？"],["李廳長釱任：就這方面，我們要繼續努力。"],["黃委員國昌：你們繼續努力，我希望告訴社會大眾你們要如何努力，我希望下一次我們再站在這邊，再討論相同問題的時候，我能夠聽到你們跟所有臺灣社會關心詐騙、痛恨詐騙的人講，法務部也好，司法院也好，要如何努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員。謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以召委……"],["主席：我知道你們在想什麼，我認為不宜啦！因為我知道你們在想什麼啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是希望讓大家……"],["主席：沒有，那就麻煩鍾佳濱委員發言，謝謝。","我跟你說，因為我知道你們在想什麼，我覺得我們就依照會議的順序來，其實我是真的給大家……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我本來是想說讓他先，但是我發現他帶錯檔案了……你看看我的內容跟他的……"],["主席：我知道，但是我們會議要進行，我不能為了吳思瑤再做這種事情……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是為了吳思瑤，是我的PowerPoint、簡報帶錯了。"],["主席：不是，我跟你講，我真的很尊重你們，但是我知道你們要做什麼，所以麻煩你們現在就繼續開始。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看，真的啦！真的，他們現在在傳輸新的檔案來。"],["主席：不是，可以麻煩你們現在就……不是，因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛！對不對？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，但是報告召委，大家也可以休息一下下，3分鐘，我的檔案來……"],["主席：不要，我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了，不然你跟吳思瑤對調，你現在跟她聯絡一下，你跟吳思瑤對調，你現在跟她對調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看他願不願意……"],["主席：對、對、對。不是，我跟你講，我怎麼會不知道大家心裡在想什麼，我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦，我比較喜歡大家就直球對決，該怎麼樣就怎麼樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我馬上問他可不可以。"],["主席：不是啦！大家都在搞一些有的沒有的，我覺得沒意思，要嘛就依照順序來，大家一切依照程序走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為難免我們在跑場的時候有一些錯誤，我本來只是想說讓大家休息，並沒有什麼其他意思，現在我的助理也在努力地彌補……"],["主席：他不願意跟你換嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：他現在在開記者會，他也沒辦法過來，因為他知道我在他前面。馬上就好了，等他一下下，好不好？"],["主席：不是啦！我跟你講，我知道你們想要幹什麼，所以我覺得，我真的尊重每一個人的發言，當然我知道你們在想什麼，你不能因為你們這樣，就想要……整個大家都在等啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我才說嘛！讓大家也順便休息……"],["主席：沒有，我跟你講，就麻煩你現在開始啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我來問看看。"],["主席：麻煩你現在開始。鍾委員，你現在要開始，不然我開始計時了，真的！鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，可以，我馬上好了，真的。"],["主席：不是，你自己準備錯檔案的話，這個不能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我只是請你包涵。"],["主席：我跟你講，你這個已經差不多，而且我跟你說，我真的知道你們在想什麼啦！我真的知道你們在想什麼，所以可不可以麻煩你開始？好不好？不然你們每次都玩這一套。好啦！謝謝。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.70284375,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.246593750000002,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.934093750000002,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.136593750000003,"end":26.558468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.76909375,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.08909375,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.37159375,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.00846875,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.48034375,"end":41.290343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.59409375,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.289718750000006,"end":48.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.424093750000004,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.34346875,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.157218750000006,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.80221875,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.98721875000001,"end":64.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.40471875,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.96971875,"end":69.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.23096875,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.67784375000001,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.56346875,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.22971875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.91284375000001,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.47346875000001,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.82721875,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.76721875000001,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.80034375000001,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.74846875,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.30096875000001,"end":109.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.27534375,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.24971875000001,"end":113.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.82721875,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.74659375,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.31909375000001,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":131.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.83721875,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.65971875,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.24596875,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.60846875000001,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.74221875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.24784375000002,"end":155.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.93909375,"end":157.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.37346875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.78971875000002,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.92409375,"end":171.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.12221875,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.88534375,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.94409375,"end":180.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.54284375,"end":186.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.09034375000002,"end":187.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.76096875000002,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":198.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.70034375,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.20221875000001,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.77534375000002,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.22659375,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.79534375,"end":211.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.91346875000002,"end":212.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.00596875000002,"end":220.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.41846875000002,"end":220.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.53659375,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.75096875000003,"end":226.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.91534375,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.94034375,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.10471875000002,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.41659375,"end":233.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.18846875000003,"end":235.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.43284375000002,"end":260.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.90159375,"end":262.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.82534375,"end":266.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.73971875,"end":270.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.71846875,"end":273.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.63346875,"end":275.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.65034375,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.97096875,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.03846875,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.40096875,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.72534375000004,"end":283.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.29034375000003,"end":286.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.02409375,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.95596875,"end":291.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.58034375,"end":291.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.35659375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.81159375000004,"end":301.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.27909375,"end":309.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.49721875,"end":311.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.04534375000003,"end":314.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.59784375000004,"end":315.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.02784375000005,"end":318.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.89659375,"end":324.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.36846875000003,"end":325.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.98846875000004,"end":329.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.37159375000005,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.50596875,"end":341.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.22659375,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.20096875,"end":344.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.48284375000003,"end":348.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.30534375,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.36221875,"end":365.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.11721875,"end":366.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.97784375000003,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.93534375,"end":369.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.32346875,"end":370.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.97721875,"end":372.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.37346875000003,"end":373.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.39034375,"end":373.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.42409375,"end":373.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.45784375000005,"end":373.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.47471875,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.57596875,"end":373.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.72784375000003,"end":373.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.13284375,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.80784375,"end":375.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.09471875,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.14534375000005,"end":375.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.52909375,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.56284375,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.33909375,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.72159375,"end":388.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.14721875000004,"end":391.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.27784375000005,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.78409375,"end":401.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.03159375,"end":405.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.92534375,"end":408.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.35534375000003,"end":411.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.59534375000004,"end":413.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.78909375,"end":414.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.79721875,"end":416.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.80534375,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.49284375,"end":420.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.04534375000003,"end":424.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.73659375000005,"end":428.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.21284375000005,"end":431.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.36846875000003,"end":433.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.14034375000006,"end":434.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.74346875000003,"end":439.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.45159375000003,"end":443.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.90659375,"end":446.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.35784375000003,"end":454.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.14971875000003,"end":458.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.01409375000003,"end":465.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.62909375000004,"end":467.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.09284375000004,"end":471.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.83471875000004,"end":473.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.25221875000005,"end":475.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.44596875,"end":477.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.62721875000005,"end":478.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.96034375000005,"end":479.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.31034375,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.11596875000004,"end":483.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.73596875000004,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.63846875,"end":487.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.83221875000004,"end":490.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.27909375,"end":493.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.64159375,"end":495.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.58221875000004,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.64909375,"end":501.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.53471875,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.42034375000003,"end":506.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.78721875,"end":508.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.48721875,"end":510.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.88784375000006,"end":514.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.7859687499999,"end":516.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.9797187500001,"end":520.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.97034375,"end":524.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.50159375,"end":526.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.4084687500001,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.9397187500001,"end":531.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.67784375,"end":532.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.3147187500001,"end":533.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.4622187500001,"end":536.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.74034375,"end":538.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.03534375,"end":541.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.35971875,"end":543.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.4397187500001,"end":545.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.02159375,"end":546.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.15221875,"end":550.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.1853437500001,"end":554.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.04971875,"end":556.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.3784687500001,"end":563.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.07784375,"end":567.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.4653437500001,"end":569.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.0009687500001,"end":573.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.86534375,"end":574.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.46846875,"end":576.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.25721875,"end":578.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.23596875,"end":580.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.9697187500001,"end":582.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.0534687500001,"end":586.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.93909375,"end":588.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.5422187500001,"end":590.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.05659375,"end":594.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.85784375,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.04284375,"end":600.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.6203437500001,"end":604.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.1515937500001,"end":605.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.21034375,"end":610.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0365937500001,"end":613.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0109687500001,"end":615.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.93471875,"end":616.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.9934687500001,"end":618.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.5078437500001,"end":621.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.4822187500001,"end":623.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.1147187500001,"end":628.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.29534375,"end":632.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.92784375,"end":636.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.1297187499999,"end":641.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.9053437499999,"end":646.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.00159375,"end":650.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.7140937500001,"end":652.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.5322187500001,"end":657.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.97034375,"end":659.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.3159687500001,"end":670.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.9853437500001,"end":673.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.42784375,"end":673.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.44471875,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.0647187500001,"end":678.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.0434687500001,"end":676.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.26284375,"end":676.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.8953437499999,"end":680.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.9878437500001,"end":684.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.82221875,"end":692.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.83846875,"end":692.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.58096875,"end":693.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.57659375,"end":703.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.98846875,"end":705.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.79409375,"end":708.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.18596875,"end":710.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.97471875,"end":720.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.57221875,"end":724.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.60534375,"end":732.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.80659375,"end":736.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.9622187500001,"end":738.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.98721875,"end":744.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.04096875,"end":746.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.42471875,"end":748.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.51721875,"end":750.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.8503437500001,"end":759.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.54096875,"end":763.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.7765937500001,"end":764.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.56534375,"end":766.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.93221875,"end":768.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.07534375,"end":784.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.25846875,"end":786.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":786.9965937500001,"end":794.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.4890937499999,"end":795.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.9740937500001,"end":797.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.93159375,"end":801.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.5890937500001,"end":804.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.5972187500001,"end":806.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.77409375,"end":809.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.0859687500001,"end":809.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.3390937500001,"end":814.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.36784375,"end":816.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.9497187500001,"end":818.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.85221875,"end":820.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.0334687500001,"end":825.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.58971875,"end":835.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.38534375,"end":837.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.07284375,"end":839.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":839.96721875,"end":840.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":842.32971875,"end":844.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.5234687500001,"end":845.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.26596875,"end":845.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.24471875,"end":847.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.0378437500001,"end":848.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.67471875,"end":849.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":849.9740937500001,"end":858.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":859.47471875,"end":860.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.0903437500001,"end":874.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.92784375,"end":884.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.66471875,"end":890.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.0603437500001,"end":893.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.11909375,"end":894.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.02159375,"end":898.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.04659375,"end":900.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.98721875,"end":919.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.41034375,"end":921.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":922.89096875,"end":927.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.10534375,"end":934.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":935.41221875,"end":937.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":938.38221875,"end":940.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.4028437500001,"end":941.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.29721875,"end":943.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":943.6303437500001,"end":946.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":948.3047187500001,"end":953.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":954.97034375,"end":956.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":956.69159375,"end":958.1765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":958.9697187500001,"end":960.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":960.89346875,"end":961.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":962.3447187500001,"end":966.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":966.96846875,"end":968.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":970.14096875,"end":970.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":971.9634687500002,"end":981.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":981.86909375,"end":983.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":983.52284375,"end":984.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":985.21034375,"end":985.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.5772187500002,"end":987.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":987.30284375,"end":989.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":989.54721875,"end":991.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":991.97721875,"end":994.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":995.8415937500001,"end":998.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":999.2165937500001,"end":1004.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1005.6797187500001,"end":1006.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1008.0590937500001,"end":1016.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1017.28971875,"end":1017.59346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.037,"end":26.379,"text":"謝律主席麻煩有請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長兩位好今天啊"},{"start":36.318,"end":62.723,"text":"除了有關於追溯權時效的問題以外其實我相信兩位應該很清楚對於整個詐騙猖獗的狀況在我們目前刑法三百三十九條或者是更具體的講三百三十九條之四條文的法定刑我們已經規定到一年以上七年以下了"},{"start":64.028,"end":87.191,"text":"但大家真的在關心的是具體的實踐上到底發生什麼事情我請兩位看一下我在之前公聽會的時候我就很清楚的點出來台版柬埔寨的主賢藍道他是怎麼樣從小弟到首腦"},{"start":89.014,"end":113.202,"text":"三十一個加重詐欺罪分成兩個審判程序來先看一下A案的審判程序2020年五月到六月的時候犯案總共有十二位被害人十二個加重詐欺罪最後並執行刑出來只有十個月還給他一幅勞動"},{"start":115.868,"end":137.38,"text":"右手邊的另外一個審判程序是他繼續的參與犯罪組織共同詐騙了19位被害人19個加重詐欺罪最後判刑兩年換刑三年一天的牢都沒有做過一天的牢都沒有做過"},{"start":139.506,"end":149.131,"text":"針對這樣子刑事司法在個案當中實踐出來的結果請教次長站在法務部的立場能不能夠接受"},{"start":151.294,"end":176.809,"text":"第一我們還是尊重法院的判決那第二我們為了要打擊這些詐騙集團我們當然期待期待要這個良心上能夠符合我們被害人以及社會大眾的期待第一個我們當然每一個人都尊重法院的判決嘛但作為法律人"},{"start":178.021,"end":197.712,"text":"法院最後判決出來乃至於執行的結果都是我們刑事司法體系當中的一環我說的沒有錯吧?在面對這個刑事司法體系實際運作的結果我剛剛的問題是請教法務部站在法務部的立場"},{"start":198.769,"end":227.632,"text":"我們國家要嚴肅地去追溯詐欺犯罪的這一件事情這樣的結果對法務部而言能不能夠接受我們還是尊重法院的判決了不過我們的立場還是希望能夠更具體現在有兩個層次嘛第一個我為什麼問你能不能夠接受如果這樣的結果"},{"start":230.259,"end":231.284,"text":"從社會大眾的期待"},{"start":232.835,"end":259.99,"text":"從刑事法律不管從應報的功能一般預防的功能特別預防的功能都沒有達到刑法所應該發揮的效果的時候這個時候就是我們應該去誠實的面對檢討為什麼出來判決的結果會變成這個樣子市長您讚不讚同這個我們讚同那現在如果你讚同的話請你仔細看齁"},{"start":261.01,"end":283.175,"text":"在這個案子裡面你覺得發生最嚴重的環節在什麼地方?應該是定執行刑現在定執行刑是每一個詐欺犯罪他每一罪的宣告"},{"start":284.629,"end":311.482,"text":"從一年到一年八個月最後總宣告刑是21年兩個月嘛對不對對在我們目前訴罪併罰的法規當中也就是我們要以每一個宣告刑最高的當作底線總宣告刑21年兩個月當作上限在這個空間當中給法官來裁量我的說明有沒有錯誤"},{"start":313.609,"end":331.573,"text":"阿偉沒有錯沒有錯嘛好作為一個立法者當我們看到給法官這麼大裁量權限的時候結果竟然他裁量出來的結果是定執行刑兩年這個會讓我們很嚴肅的必須要面對一個問題"},{"start":335.56,"end":343.934,"text":"我們針對訴罪併法的部分是不是給法官太多的裁量權有沒有必要修正請教一下次長這個"},{"start":350.362,"end":368.442,"text":"此事我們在刑修會議裏面也做過討論了。再來,詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我們也會草案裏面第五十條檢察官在起訴的時候也會具體求刑。我先提一下,不用剛剛您所講的專法。現行法。"},{"start":371.215,"end":387.59,"text":"檢察官可不可以具體求情可以可以嘛對那所以就不要講空的嘛是現在我在問的是針對訴罪併法這麼大的裁量權交給法官導致最後出來的結果是這個樣子從法務部的立場喔從法務部的立場"},{"start":390.168,"end":411.074,"text":"你們能不能夠接受?如果個案檢察官認為量刑過低的話我們的確會再收集其他的資料來提起依照法律程序就這個個案你覺得檢察官應不應該覺得量刑過低這個檢察官個案他會認定現在我就要跟你講這具體的案子為什麼為什麼我會這樣說齁這個是前案喔這個還當"},{"start":418.05,"end":443.332,"text":"這位難道他還是小弟喔他只是這個犯罪組織其中的參與者喔他還沒有真正的成為什麼上面的領導人但我們接下來再往下看剛剛的那一個判決來請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長看一下2022年4月的時候全部判刑確定"},{"start":444.946,"end":470.298,"text":"犯罪時間在檢察官所追溯的犯罪事實是在2020年到2022年4月判刑確定判刑確定了以後一個緩刑不用關一個給他一服勞動結果他在一服勞動的時候啊去做了什麼事發生了台版的柬埔寨從2022年8月到2022年11月拘禁"},{"start":474.281,"end":497.149,"text":"提供賬戶的人,凌虐他們繼續進行詐騙。這個案件檢察官什麼時候收網的?市長你熟不熟?收網的時間我不清楚。收網的時間我跟市長講。在士林地檢署偵辦。是。收網的時間是2022年11月。11月收網的時候"},{"start":502.557,"end":520.683,"text":"杜成哲還沒有抓到其他的人先落網了其他的人先落網了好沒有抓到他但是台版柬埔寨已經被偵破囉許多共犯都被抓了但杜成哲跟其他幾個人跑了來我們再看下一張我們在第一個案件當中31個加重詐欺罪"},{"start":530.437,"end":556.487,"text":"讓這位杜先生難道一年一天的勞動沒有做一天的勞動沒有做他在外面一服勞動的時候在台北山叢淡水拘禁提供人頭賬戶的人凌虐他們2022年11月檢警收網其他的人都被抓了"},{"start":557.558,"end":582.03,"text":"這位杜先生還沒有被抓到來再繼續往下看二零二三年的三月他繼續在台中做什麼他繼續在台中從事詐騙而且拘禁什麼人頭帳戶的提供者用手銬用腳鐐的方式來控制他們的行動自由繼續的從事詐騙我們的形式"},{"start":588.201,"end":616.244,"text":"體系我們的刑法體系為什麼會讓整個社會大眾看到的是我們對於不僅僅是詐騙犯還是組織犯罪裡面的成員還用凌虐的方式去剝奪人的行動自由讓他們可以一而再再而三的犯案毫無畏懼"},{"start":618.015,"end":640.686,"text":"毫無畏懼這個是我們現在所在面臨的狀況我想要跟次長交換意見的事情是說法律人在修法的時候不是只有單純的在看那個法定型怎麼調你要看最後刑事司法實踐的結果到底是什麼"},{"start":641.96,"end":651.802,"text":"以及最後這個刑事司法實現的結果對於我們刑法所要達成的目的不管你採取的是什麼理論"},{"start":653.618,"end":680.271,"text":"有沒有實際的實踐刑法所要達成的目的?市長你覺得有嗎?我們還是有積極的安排教育訓練來要求檢察官要督促法院良刑的程序以符合罪行相當的原則。你們什麼時候開始做教育訓練做這樣的督促?這個一直以來我們一直以來都有嘛那如果一直以來都有的話請問這件事怎麼發生的?"},{"start":681.298,"end":684.6,"text":"這是在做完教育訓練以後還是做完教育訓練以前?我們公宿訓練是常態性的訓練所以這樣的現實沒有讓你警覺到說你所謂的公宿常態性的訓練沒有發揮效果嗎?還是你認為有發揮效果?"},{"start":704.629,"end":731.79,"text":"我們尊重法官的判決我們只能努力了真的這樣真的太消極了啦如果到今天你站在這邊還是尊重法官的因為對於立法者來講我們要解決我們要處理的問題非常的critical現在一年以上七年以下搞出來是這個樣子嗎這樣的實踐的結果我老實跟次長報告社會大眾沒有辦法接受我也沒有辦法接受"},{"start":733.834,"end":748.591,"text":"那個不是立法委員是不是已經明確的在不斷調高刑度而是我們看到實際實踐的結果根本沒有辦法達到刑罰的功能嘛。次長你覺得我說的有沒有道理?"},{"start":749.717,"end":767.99,"text":"委員講的有道理那有道理那我們接下來該怎麼辦接下來該怎麼辦我們要提高法定刑嗎還是繼續信賴法務部對於公訴檢察官所做的教育訓練還是期待法官在量刑的時候"},{"start":769.147,"end":783.781,"text":"不會按照以前的方式這樣繼續下去我現在想要請教法務部跟司法院的是如果這樣的結果大家都沒有辦法接受連您也沒有辦法接受我們的solution我們的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":785.265,"end":788.649,"text":"來我最後齁時間的關係這個案子我說齁到2022年收網的時候第一波被抓了嘛但他完全沒有在怕"},{"start":806.823,"end":833.183,"text":"沒有抓到他他在台中繼續幹結果私刑拘禁給人家上手銬給人家上腳鐐來看一下這個是法院最後判刑的結果杜成哲宣告刑七個月其他的六個月六個月四個月全部一顆罰金那等於是什麼我把提供人頭暢戶的人用手銬腳鐐關起來我所會付出的刑事處罰的代價是多少錢18萬到12萬"},{"start":837.458,"end":857.939,"text":"市長這樣的結果你可以接受嗎我們尊重法官的判決我們當然尊重法官的判決嘛我的意思是從法務部執掌法務部我們在訴追不法犯罪的時候這樣的結果你認為妥適嗎我們會繼續努力"},{"start":862.148,"end":890.341,"text":"你要如何努力我相信你一定會繼續努力現在我的問題是你要如何努力你要如何努力改變這一個讓非常多的人沒有辦法接受的結果這是我的問題講空話沒有辦法解決問題啊現在我的問題我不是懷疑你努力的決心我在請教的是你要如何努力我們在我們現在也有對於施行激進的話也有加重處罰"},{"start":892.11,"end":904.938,"text":"再往下齁一模一樣他後來被抓到的到2023年我剛所講私刑拘禁的那個案子又三十二個加重詐欺罪"},{"start":907.003,"end":934.34,"text":"詐欺的金額超過兩千兩百萬三十二個加重詐欺罪喔又多了三十二個被害人每一個宣告刑一年四個月到一年一個月宣告刑合計四十七年九個月這個還沒有定執行刑啊但我有一點沒有辦法想像啊這個定執行刑以後定出來會多少因為按照我們目前給法官的裁量權法官只要判定的執行刑喔"},{"start":935.495,"end":952.961,"text":"只要在一年十一個月以上就合法了嗎我說的對不對是會不會發生跟之前把他養大的那個案子一樣要定兩年的執行刑雖然他總宣告刑加起來已經47年了面對這樣的狀況我們當然都尊重"},{"start":959.033,"end":985.623,"text":"司法個案的判決嗎但問題是當給法官這麼大的裁量權最後裁量出來的結果從刑罰的目的從最後要抑制詐騙犯罪全部都沒有辦法達成效果的話我們是不是應該要深切的檢討反省我們接下來該怎麼辦市長贊不贊成我贊成司法院"},{"start":986.561,"end":1006.954,"text":"響鐘?"},{"start":1008.1,"end":1008.12,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},{"id":"153011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b33592b501670913c2fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e21e5a8a82d86f5765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:32:21 - 10:38:54","影片長度":"00:06:33","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":393,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:38:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:32:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時32分）主席，謝謝。我們請法務部次長。"],["主席：次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好，次長，今天特別感謝吳宗憲召委排定刑法第八十三條修正草案以及其他修正草案的合併審查，不過本席要特別強調，追訴期的部分確實有其必要性，我們看到兩個新聞，一個新聞內容是受害人形容每一次都像死了一般，有4個女學生控訴長期性侵，體操教練判刑6年10個月，為什麼判那麼輕？因為有一些是追訴期已經過了。還有一個是女子揭發13歲時曾遭高雄補習班王姓老師性侵且持續3年，我們上一屆的王婉諭委員也一起大聲疾呼，兒少性侵案的法律追訴期應從成年開始算。其實這些都是社會上的案例，我相信這些不是第一例，也不會是最後一例。本席在今天的立法過程裡面就有特別提到，這是一個態度問題，重點在於是我們要用什麼樣的方式去加以保護，因為現在不管是科技、不管是交友軟體都更加的發達，但是某種程度上也造成犯罪率的增加，而且有很多的未成年性侵其實是什麼？其實是透過權勢性侵，其實是透過親屬關係，其實是透過權力不對等而造成性侵，那這些因為權力不對等所造成的性侵，這些受害的未成年孩童往往不敢講出來，他不敢在第一時間揭發，因為可能這個人掌握了他的生存權、掌握了他的受教權、掌握了他的相關權利，所以這也是為什麼我們強調我們要保護未成年不要有這樣的狀況。我想討論了那麼多，次長，即便去年有召開這個小組來做討論，也認為現在夠，但是我先請教，到目前為止，根據統計，每年地方檢察署偵辦的性侵害案件有多少件不起訴？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們可能會後才能夠提供正確的數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席已經先幫你查了。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：在112年（2023年）有45件，在111年（2022年）有28件，再往前回推，每年都有十幾、二十幾件不等，當然這些案件不一定全部都是未成年性侵，但是本席要強調的是什麼？就是性侵害案件因為已經過了追訴期而不起訴的人數每年都還是有二、三十人不等，甚至在2023年高達45人，換言之，它就是一種相關的漏洞，他逃過了，沒有辦法讓他接受正義的制裁、司法的制裁，我們常常講正義不是不到，而是可能有時候會遲到，但它一定要到。所以我們之所以要提出相關的修法是未成年性侵的追訴期從成年開始算起，就是因為澳洲有做過研究，就是女性在未成年時被性侵到能夠講出完整案件過程的時間，平均要23.9年才有辦法講出來，大家不要以為只有少女會受到性侵，少男也一樣會受到性侵，少男受到性侵後會講出來的平均時間是25.1年，比少女還要久，可能是因為我們傳統觀念上認為男性相對來講不會受害，但是實際上就有確實的案例，少男也會受到性侵害，而他講出來的時間比少女還要久，都是已經長達二十幾年的時間，所以我們是不是更應該要放寬，對他們有所保障？次長，這個態度問題能不能討論、不要堅持？"],["徐次長錫祥：絕對可以討論，我跟委員報告，剛才在一開始我就有特別強調，法務部並沒有反對的意思，只是我們是多考慮到法制面的問題、法安定性的問題以及督促司法警察機關能夠加緊偵辦，那沒有反對的意思，但是就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒有反對、沒有堅持？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，就特定的犯罪只是提醒在法制面希望能夠審慎的處理，我們並沒有反對的意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我最後一個問題只問為什麼特別拉出來未成年性侵？就是因為它相對來講是有特殊性，它相對來講是有我們剛剛所提到的，有他不敢說出來、不願意說出口或是難以去描述、還原的那個狀況，也因此才會特別針對這樣的一個部分去調整。"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：就像我們刑法第八十條有針對死刑的罪就是三十年的追訴期。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後三年到十年是二十年的追訴期，本席都認同，但是就未成年性侵的這個部分之所以特別會提出來，就是因為有太多#MeToo的事件，以及現在犯罪的環境變得更複雜，還有未成年被性侵之後他們不敢說出來的狀況，所以我們才會特別拉出來。本席認為，既然我們都有一個共識，法務部沒有一定堅持相關的立場，這一條不是說不能修，我們也希望展現一個態度，告訴我們中華民國的青少年、未成年的孩童，我們至少用法律的力量去給大家……也不要說保護，我覺得因為沒有辦法保護大家不遭受這樣的犯行，但是至少讓這一些加害者知道，你敢犯，我們一定要追到，而且做這樣的追訴期延長，就是告訴你，不要以為自己躲得了，躲得了一時，躲不了一世，我們可以用這樣態度去面對嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝次長，如果在之後有進行逐條的時候，我們也希望能夠以開放的心胸針對這個部分來支持本席的提案。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","好，下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.89034375,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.31534375,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.23721875,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.19846875,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.13909375,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.096593750000004,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.049093750000004,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.93409375,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.814718750000004,"end":70.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.34471875,"end":76.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.18346875,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.30471875,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.95846875000001,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.55159375000001,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.30534375,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.30971875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.32221875000002,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.11096875,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.49471875,"end":146.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.91096875,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.42409375,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.53346875,"end":161.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.13659375,"end":161.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.62596875,"end":161.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.62159375000002,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.31284375,"end":170.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.36284375000002,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.62534375,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.63721875000002,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.45846875,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.52846875,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.24846875,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.11159375000003,"end":256.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.93596875000003,"end":260.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.63159375000004,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.64846875,"end":260.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.00284375,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.64409375,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.66096875,"end":273.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.09784375000004,"end":279.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.51034375,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.14721875000004,"end":282.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.39596875,"end":284.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.35346875,"end":292.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.41596875,"end":304.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.69221875,"end":312.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.45034375,"end":340.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.48409375,"end":315.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.34471875,"end":359.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.24471875,"end":383.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.65034375000005,"end":391.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.48034375000003,"end":391.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.78409375,"end":392.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.25221875,"end":393.85971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.225,"end":10.867,"text":"主席,謝謝。我們請法務部次長。"},{"start":15.819,"end":33.508,"text":"委員好市長好市長我想今天特別感謝我們吳宗憲召委來排定刑法八三條的這個修正以及我們另外的其他的一個合併審查不過本席特別強調追溯期的部分確實有其必要性兩個新聞"},{"start":37.182,"end":59.788,"text":"每一次都像死了。四個女學生控訴長期性侵體操教練判刑六年十個月。為什麼判那麼輕?因為有一些是追溯期已經過了。女子揭發13歲陳昭高雄補習班王信老師性侵持續三年。"},{"start":60.868,"end":83.196,"text":"我們去年上一屆的委員王婉玉委員也一起大聲疾呼而少性侵案法律追溯期應從成年開始算其實這一些都是社會上的案例我相信這一些不是第一例也不會是最後一例那本席在今天的立法過程裡面我就特別有提到"},{"start":84.486,"end":96.356,"text":"這是個態度問題。態度問題在於是說我們要用什麼樣的一個方式去保護現在日益不管是科技不管是交友軟體更加的發達但是某種程度上它也造成犯罪的"},{"start":97.568,"end":97.728,"text":"則不予審查"},{"start":118.729,"end":136.852,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":137.5,"end":138.52,"text":"我們這個可能會後才能夠提供正確的數字。"},{"start":162.671,"end":185.533,"text":"一百一十二年也就是二零二三年四十五件一百一十一年二零二二年二十八件再往前回推每年都有十幾二十幾件不等當然這一些件數是不是他全都是未成年性情不一定但是本席要強調的是什麼是性侵害案件不起訴的人數因為時效已經過期"},{"start":187.074,"end":196.629,"text":"每年都還是有二三十人不等甚至2023年高達四十五人換言之他就是一種相關的漏洞他逃過了"},{"start":197.694,"end":217.929,"text":"他沒有辦法接受到政治正義的制裁司法的制裁我們常講正義不是不到而是可能有時候會遲到但他一定要到所以我們為什麼要提說相關的修法是在性侵的未成年性侵他的起訴期就從成年開始算起是因為澳洲也做過研究"},{"start":218.729,"end":239.485,"text":"女性未成年性侵她平均她能夠講出完整的一個案件是23.9年她才有辦法講出來男性不要以為只有少女會受到性侵少男一樣會受到性侵少男受到性侵講出來平均是25.1年比少女還要久"},{"start":240.145,"end":240.765,"text":"市長,態度問題,能不能討論,不要堅持。"},{"start":261.664,"end":261.884,"text":"沒有反對沒有堅持"},{"start":285.71,"end":312.602,"text":"對,要不然這特定的犯罪只是說要提醒在法制面希望能夠審慎的處理。是,那次長我最後一個問題只問為什麼特別拉出來未成年性侵?就是因為他相對來講是有特殊性,他相對來講是有我們剛剛所提到的,有他不敢說出來,不願意說出口或是難以去描述那個還原的一個狀況,也因此才會特別針對這樣的一個部分。"},{"start":313.582,"end":314.883,"text":"則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書．則不復議同意"},{"start":341.403,"end":358.589,"text":"則不肯說出來的一個狀況所以我們才會特別拉出來所以本席希望我們在進入既然我們都有一個共識也認為說法務部沒有一定堅持相關的立場這一條不是說不能修那我們也希望是展現一個態度告訴我們中華民國"},{"start":360.247,"end":383.149,"text":"對於青少年、未成年的孩童我們至少用法律的力量去保、給大家不要說保護啦我覺得因為沒有辦法保護大家不論這樣子犯刑但是至少讓這一些加害者你敢犯我們一定要追到而且這樣的一個追溯期延長是告訴你不要以為躲得了一時躲不了一世我們可以用這樣的態度去面對嗎是好"},{"start":383.99,"end":391.906,"text":"謝謝次長那如果說之後有進行主條的時候我們也希望能夠以開放的心胸來針對這個部分來支持本席的提案是謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3a08c8dac4d675a54442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e523787622360289c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:39:12 - 10:50:53","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":701,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:50:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:39:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時39分）謝謝主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。部長，我想你剛到立法院，本席對於數發部只有一個重中之重，臺灣民眾認為臺灣的新三害就是詐騙、認知作戰跟網路犯罪，部長，你有沒有被網路詐騙或者是被簡訊詐騙過？"],["黃部長彥男：收過很多，但是沒有被騙過。"],["蔡委員其昌：你蠻聰明的，從來沒有上當過。"],["黃部長彥男：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，那你有沒有被網路犯罪襲擊過，譬如說你資料被鎖住、要勒索你，有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：這個也沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：也都沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你知道這個問題很嚴重？"],["黃部長彥男：我瞭解、瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：數發部第一件事情，這件事情沒有做好，數發部長這個位子很難坐得住，部長，你有沒有這樣的認知？這個不是認知作戰喔，這是你有沒有這樣的認知，有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解，我知道這個大家期待很高，當然這也是我當初願意接受這樣的職務，就是我覺得很多問題可以用科技來解決，所以我希望能夠把科技帶進來，然後幫助國家解決一些這樣的一個問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：上一個部長叫唐鳳，唐鳳也是科技界的奇才，唐鳳部長做了一些事情，但不管怎麼樣，民眾是不滿意的，所以今天你來當數發部的部長，我第一個必須要先提醒你，這是一個善意的提醒，如果部長沒有辦法把這三件事情做好，當然特別是詐騙跟網路犯罪；認知作戰因為涉及到整個國家整體的體系，但至少在詐騙上面，那個是所有臺灣人民每一天必須要遭受的侵犯，每一天你打開，你說到今天剛剛我聽上一個委員在問你，何委員在問你的時候，特別去提到所謂平臺業者，到今天名人詐騙我隨便打開手機都可以看得到啊，防不勝防，而且煩不勝煩。部長，除了道德勸說，就是說電子簽章法過了，現在行政院打詐的專法也送到立法院來了，到通過三讀、開始落實實施、相關的規定辦法都出來，時間我不知道要多久，但是至少人民每天的生活他都要繼續，那在這一段期間，除了剛剛你所回答的道德勸說之外，還有沒有其他的可能？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我剛剛講就是我們希望加速發現剛剛講這些假廣告或假訊息，能夠要求這些平臺商，因為以前通報他們就需要點時間，比如民眾打到165，165再去處理、然後再通報，這也許半天、一天已經過去了，那我們現在是希望有這樣的一個，我們就打到查詢的通報網，能夠縮短，也許是瞬間或是很短時間就能夠通報。"],["蔡委員其昌：這是3個月後的事啦？"],["黃部長彥男：對，3個月後的事，但是這個是可以幫助。在這個之前，跟委員講，就是我現在還是一樣，當然就是我們會定期跟這些平臺商再繼續溝通。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道，我知道你要溝通，也喝咖啡啦，除了送上咖啡，可不可以送上毒藥？"],["黃部長彥男：我們就是要給一些壓力……"],["蔡委員其昌：真的，民眾真的很受不了了，作為民意代表，我必須要把民眾的憤怒真的轉達給部長知道。"],["黃部長彥男：所以這部分的工作，我們請次長，他有……"],["蔡委員其昌：來，次長，有沒有什麼更厲害的方法？老是送上好喝的咖啡，業者也是喝一喝就走了，可不可以送上一點難喝的，或者甚至有毒的？"],["林次長宜敬：是，委員說的沒錯，我們現在的策略是多管齊下，一方面我們是很期待打詐專法的通過，然後以後這種投資廣告都有實名制，但是那個時間實在太久了，所以我們希望再設法努力能不能在3個月之內有這個打詐查詢通報網，看能不能讓它上線，這個的目的就是當有人通報的時候，我覺得現在民眾都生活在網路上，其他的民眾就很簡單地把可疑的網址貼上去，看是不是已經有人通報了？然後政府是不是已經有在處理了？處理的狀況我們給大家知道，這是第二件事情。剛剛委員有提到，事實上，3個月對民眾感覺來講好像還太長了，所以我們現在其實已經啟動另外一個更短期的機制，就是建立一個公眾人物的……當他的身分被仿冒的時候，他有一個通報的管道，我們現在已經陸續在跟這些名人有一些通報的管道，事實上各位委員如果有這方面的困擾的話，我們也很希望把這個服務提供給您，以後您如果發現您的身分被仿冒，有人在做那個詐騙廣告的時候，可以馬上通知我們，然後我們收到這個訊息以後就趕快去通知Facebook，然後我們在輿論上讓Facebook感受到它必須趕快處理這些訊息。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以次長還沒有想出好的方法嘛，因為還是透過輿論的力量、社會的壓力嘛！我建議你們好好地花一點時間去研究，民不與官鬥啦，為什麼？因為官有很多種方法，官有很多的手段，我不相信數發部只有好喝的咖啡啦，所以我還是堅信你們還是可以再找出方法，我不相信這些平臺業者一而在再而三地放縱，讓這些詐騙不斷地層出不窮在它的平臺上面。部長，這是我對你的期許，要有KPI啦，我還是會問你，我們常常會在立法院見面啦！好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會給他難喝的咖啡。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個，這個資安啊，我看現在經濟部把資安院移到數發部，然後今年我看你們的新聞稿上面去提到說，資安院承接臺灣電腦網路危機處理暨協調中心，我看到了這個新聞，可是我對一個數字覺得很疑惑，成立這個平臺很重要的是民間跟政府一起協力，對不對？參加廠商、企業的人數只有1,500人，這個是怎麼一回事啊？我們臺灣有百萬中小企業啊！"],["何院長全德：委員好。跟委員報告一下，因為目前對於民間企業的通報，沒有法律強制的要求，所以這邊是自願性的。然後資安院接手以後，我們就開始怎麼樣提供各種誘因，讓他願意來通報，比如講說，參加我們的會員以後，我們的情資可以分享，發生資安事件以後，我們可以來協助，所以透過各種管道來增加企業來這邊成為會員。第二，我們現在開始跟很多民間企業的供應鏈，包括像我們的高科技產業，包括像我們無店面公會，我們跟它來做聯防，希望透過這樣的管道把會員數目增加，讓我們的資安情報能夠在第一時間往企業來處理。第三個，我們要協助中小企業，中小企業是很大的一個挑戰，也希望中小企業會變成將來資安院可以服務的地方。以上補充，謝謝！"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，時間有限，下一次我會再好好討論。我先提醒你，一個資安院接了一個中心，接到今年的三個月，只收到二十到三十幾件通報，會員數只有一千五百多個，這種單位只有兩種狀況，一個就是好好地管理，讓這個數字快速明顯地增加；第二個就把它廢掉，浪費人民的公帑嘛！成立一個協調中心，通報二、三十件、3個月，駭客都活不下去了。一個駭客隨便一駭二、三十家、通報二、三十家，如果產業只有二、三十家，這個駭客活不下去，你現在懂我的意思嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個表示成效真的要檢討。"],["黃部長彥男：再檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺灣中小企業有數百間，資安的問題對他們來講很困擾，大部分資料被駭客駭了之後，只好乖乖地看要買乙太幣，還是買其他的數位貨幣，就直接趕快把資料拿回來比較快，為什麼法令不會強制呢？為什麼？這是因為你要設計誘因嘛！各位試想，這麼多無助的中小企業他們不會有資安部門啊！一間公司10個人、8個人、十幾個人，它是要怎麼有資安部門？所以它對資安到底要怎麼面對，其實現在就是看運氣嘛！希望駭客不要找上它，或者它沒有價值讓駭客來駭它。所以重點在於說，我們一定有誘因讓這些無助的中小企業覺得來參加這個很好，政府可以協助它什麼，來參加這個可以怎麼樣，通報之後可以怎麼得到什麼對待，這個才是今天成立這個協調中心重要的目的，因為臺灣的型態是大企業它不需要你，它認為它比你數發部還厲害，對不對？它認為他們自己就可以解決了。透過公協會，我們有太多的中小企業的公協會，隨便一個公協會只要一半的會員參加，你早就幾十萬了，不會是1,500個會員。","部長，所以本席提這個主要是告訴你說，這個是替中小企業出出聲音，我們要用腦筋想想看，什麼樣的方式可以讓中小企業覺得參加這個聯防對他們是有用的，參加這個聯防對他們的保護是有幫助的，參加這個聯防他們可以在這個無助的汪洋當中、網路犯罪的汪洋當中找到一根浮木啊？好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，時間的關係，我沒辦法再詳細，我只是提醒說，我還是會follow這個案子，你們一定要把這個成效做出來。"],["黃部長彥男：回去我跟何院長再把整個review一遍。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝！"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝！"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請許智傑委員發言。我還是善意地提醒部長，不要再有威脅或者是難喝的咖啡這樣的字眼。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.50284375,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.50659375,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.316593750000003,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.289718750000002,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.70284375,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.33971875,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.05659375,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.26721875,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.76034375,"end":34.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.51909375,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.22284375,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.11284375,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.65284375,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.96909375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.48784375,"end":46.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.50471875,"end":46.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.52159375,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.60596875,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.75784375,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.58471875,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.64721875,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.312843750000006,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.62471875000001,"end":64.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.41784375,"end":63.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.25721875,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.87721875,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.00346875000001,"end":70.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.63596875,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.59346875,"end":72.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.72846875,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.74534375,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.57221875,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.97721875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.37346875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.25096875,"end":92.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.10096875,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.36221875000001,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.02409375,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.41596875,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.26784375000001,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.98471875000001,"end":108.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.44846875,"end":110.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.00096875000001,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.69284375000001,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.88221875,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.03409375000001,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.37034375,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.54659375,"end":133.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.28846875000002,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.60471875000002,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.63784375,"end":141.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.86534375000002,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.34971875000002,"end":148.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.59846875000002,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.27721875,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.67784375000002,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.98096875000002,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.75659375,"end":163.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.71846875,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.90721875,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.24846875,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.39159375,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.10034375,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.77909375000002,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.88846875000002,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.98534375,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.76784375000003,"end":214.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.27596875,"end":215.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.81159375000001,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.66784375,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.51409375,"end":237.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.02409375000002,"end":233.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.94721875000002,"end":242.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.26346875000002,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.69784375,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.91659375,"end":246.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.43971875000003,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.96659375000002,"end":251.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.08034375000003,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.14784375000002,"end":251.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.38409375,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.18096875,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.21846875,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.11659375,"end":265.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.84596875,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.86284375,"end":350.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.47409375,"end":355.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.48596875000004,"end":356.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.81909375000004,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.36659375000005,"end":366.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.75846875,"end":367.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.42909375000005,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.13784375,"end":372.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.66034375000004,"end":378.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.11096875000004,"end":384.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.84846875000005,"end":387.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.81846875,"end":391.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.93159375000005,"end":396.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.66096875000005,"end":398.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.76221875000005,"end":401.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.26784375000005,"end":402.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.37721875000005,"end":407.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.13596875,"end":423.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.77909375,"end":425.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.77034375000005,"end":428.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.31409375000004,"end":437.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.49846875000003,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.13909375000003,"end":442.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.49346875000003,"end":443.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.11346875000004,"end":444.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.13034375,"end":444.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.16409375,"end":444.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.29909375000005,"end":446.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.69534375,"end":446.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.21846875000006,"end":447.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.64846875,"end":456.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.28034375000004,"end":461.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.61284375,"end":464.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.43096875000003,"end":473.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.31971875000005,"end":483.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.95534375000005,"end":486.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.55409375000005,"end":488.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.73096875000005,"end":490.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.97534375000004,"end":496.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.52721875000003,"end":503.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.07971875000004,"end":498.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.20534375000005,"end":508.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.00221875000005,"end":508.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.77846875000006,"end":508.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.79534375000003,"end":513.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.36471875,"end":510.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.65096875,"end":518.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.2790937500001,"end":519.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.00034375,"end":525.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.21034375,"end":528.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.19721875,"end":531.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.2009687500001,"end":532.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.37784375,"end":535.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.66034375,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.30096875,"end":540.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.3178437500001,"end":544.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.1609687499999,"end":547.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.41784375,"end":550.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.35409375,"end":552.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.7547187499999,"end":556.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.5009687500001,"end":557.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.86784375,"end":562.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.33534375,"end":572.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.16221875,"end":564.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.59534375,"end":579.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.34971875,"end":581.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.04534375,"end":583.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.5515937499999,"end":585.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.9140937500001,"end":589.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.2509687500001,"end":590.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.19596875,"end":594.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.00971875,"end":599.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.49409375,"end":604.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.1515937500001,"end":608.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.45909375,"end":614.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.22596875,"end":621.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.9084687500001,"end":622.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.3472187500001,"end":623.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.38909375,"end":626.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.5828437499999,"end":630.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.42596875,"end":635.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.34096875,"end":637.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.3447187500001,"end":640.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.85909375,"end":641.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.6015937500001,"end":643.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.21721875,"end":644.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8584687499999,"end":648.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.7353437500001,"end":654.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.74721875,"end":656.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.97034375,"end":658.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.3203437500001,"end":661.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.9697187500001,"end":664.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.2097187500001,"end":670.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.52534375,"end":673.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.4109687499999,"end":678.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.64221875,"end":681.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.5615937500002,"end":684.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.4765937500001,"end":686.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.65784375,"end":689.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":687.1303437500001,"end":687.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":688.1597187500001,"end":688.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.3915937500001,"end":690.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.28159375,"end":692.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.7665937500001,"end":692.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":692.83409375,"end":693.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":693.30659375,"end":693.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.6609687499999,"end":696.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.37784375,"end":698.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.77409375,"end":699.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.31409375,"end":699.76971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.128,"end":25.938,"text":"謝謝主席請黃部長請黃部長蔡委員好部長早部長我想你剛到立法院分析對數法部只有一個重中之重"},{"start":27.335,"end":50.228,"text":"台灣民眾認為台灣的新三害就是詐騙、認知作戰跟網路犯罪。部長你有沒有被網路詐騙或者是被簡訊詐騙過?收過很多但是沒有被騙過。所以你蠻聰明的,從來沒有上當過。沒有。好。部長那你有沒有被網路犯罪"},{"start":52.857,"end":55.018,"text":"蘇發部長這個位置很難坐得住部長你有沒有這樣的認知?"},{"start":73.68,"end":76.262,"text":"上一個部長叫唐鳳唐鳳我想他也是科技界的奇才但是呢"},{"start":99.574,"end":128.539,"text":"湯孟部長他做了一些事情但不管怎麼樣民眾是不滿意的所以今天你來當這個訴發部的部長我第一個必須要先提醒你這個是一個善意的提醒如果這個部長沒有辦法把這三件事情做好當然這個特別是詐騙跟網路犯罪認知作戰因為涉及到整個國家整體的體系但至少在詐騙上面那個是所有的台灣人民每一天必須要遭受的侵犯"},{"start":129.605,"end":150.57,"text":"每一天啊你打開你說到今天剛剛我聽上一個委員在問你啊何委員在問你的時候特別去提到這個這個所謂平台業者這個到今天啊那名人那個詐騙啊我我我隨便打開手機我都可以部長我都可以還都可以看得到啊煩不勝煩啊防不勝煩而且煩不勝煩部長"},{"start":153.777,"end":182.036,"text":"除了道德勸說就是說電子簽章法過了現在行政院打詐的專法也送到立法院來了但是啊到通過三讀開始落實實施相關的規定辦法都出來時間我不知道要多久但是至少人民每天的生活他都要繼續那在這段期間除了剛剛你所回答的道德勸說之外還有沒有其他的可能"},{"start":182.97,"end":197.968,"text":"那個報告委員就是我剛剛講就是說我們希望加速發現剛剛講這些假廣告或假訊息能夠要求就是這些平台商快速因為以前通報他們跟"},{"start":198.829,"end":199.369,"text":"這是三個月後的事啦"},{"start":216.934,"end":237,"text":"對三個月後是但是就是說這個是可以幫助那在這個之前我跟委員講就是說我現在還是一樣就是說當然就是我們會定期跟這些平台商再繼續溝通我知道你要溝通也喝咖啡啦除了喝咖啡之外除了送上咖啡可不可以送上毒藥"},{"start":239.38,"end":240.781,"text":"市長有沒有什麼更厲害的方法?"},{"start":258.286,"end":280.695,"text":"老師送上好喝的咖啡業者也是喝一喝就走了嘛可不可以送上一點難喝的或者甚至有毒的是委員說的沒錯那我們現在的策略一方面就是說我們是多管齊下一方面我們是很期待打造專法的通過然後以後這種投資廣告都有實名制但是那個時間實在太久了所以我們希望在"},{"start":281.415,"end":281.636,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":304.356,"end":319.092,"text":"處理的狀況我們給大家知道這是第二第二件事情那剛剛委員有提到事實上三個月還是對民眾來感覺來講好像還太長了所以我們現在其實已經啟動另外一個更短期的那個機制就是建立一個那個"},{"start":319.833,"end":339.599,"text":"公眾人物的當他的身份被仿冒的時候他有一個通報的管道那我們現在已經陸續在跟這些名人的就是有一些通報的管道那也希望事實上各位委員如果有這方面的困擾的話我們也很希望把這個服務提供給您那以後您如果說發現您的"},{"start":340.879,"end":341.699,"text":"我建議你們好好地花一點時間去研究政府"},{"start":369.225,"end":391.44,"text":"民不與官鬥啦為什麼因為官有很多種方法官有很多的手段我不相信速發部只有好喝的咖啡啦所以我還是堅信你們還是可以再找出方法我不相信這些平台業者一而再再而三的放縱讓這些詐騙不斷的層出不窮在他的平台上面"},{"start":392.944,"end":393.044,"text":"第二個齁第二個"},{"start":404.022,"end":427.247,"text":"這個資安我看現在把那個經濟部把這個所謂的資安院把這個對資安院移到速發部然後我們今年我看你們的這個新聞稿上面去提到說我們這個資安院承接臺灣電腦網路危機處理暨協調中心我看到了這個新聞可是我對一個數字我覺得很疑惑這個數字就是說"},{"start":429.669,"end":445.996,"text":"這個成立這個平台很重要的是要這個民間跟政府啊所謂的這個一起協力嘛對不對那這個參加廠商企業的人數只有1500人這是這個是怎麼一回事台灣有百萬中小企業"},{"start":449.724,"end":473.562,"text":"委員好,跟委員報告一下因為目前對民間的企業的通報沒有法律的強制的要求所以這邊是自願性的然後自願性接手以後我們就開始怎麼樣提供各種誘因他願意來通報比如講說你參加我們的會以後我們的情誌可以分享那發生資安事件以後"},{"start":474.383,"end":498.975,"text":"我們可以來協助所以透過各種管道來增加民眾的企業來賓來成為會員那第二我們現在開始跟很多民間的企業的供應鏈包括像我們的高科技的產業包括像我們無電面工會我們跟他來做聯訪那希望透過這樣的管道把會員數目增加讓我們的資安的情報能夠在第一時間往企業來處理第三個我們要協助"},{"start":499.535,"end":518.941,"text":"中小企業中小企業是很大的挑戰也希望中小企業會變成將來在內可以服務的地方以上補充謝謝好部長這個時間的有限這個下一次我會再好好討論那我先提醒你一個治安院接接了一個中心這個中心"},{"start":520.239,"end":539.14,"text":"接到今年的3個月只收到20到30幾件通報會員數只有1500多個這種單位只有兩種狀況一個就是好好的管理讓這個數字快速明顯的增加第二個就把它廢掉"},{"start":540.539,"end":562.597,"text":"這浪費人民的公帑嘛 成立這個 成立一個協調中心通報二三十件三個月 駭客都活不下去了啦一個駭客 隨便一駭 二三十家 通報二三十家 這個當駭客齁 這個產業當駭客這個產業如果只有二三十家 這駭客活不下去了"},{"start":563.39,"end":584.855,"text":"你現在懂我的意思嗎?所以這個表示成效真的要檢討台灣中小企業有數百件資安的問題對他們來講很困擾啊大部分資料一被駭客駭了之後只好乖乖的看要買以太幣還是買買買其他的這個數位貨幣就直接就快點資料拿回來快點啦"},{"start":585.967,"end":613.668,"text":"那為什麼法令不會強制嘛?為什麼?這是因為你要設計誘因嘛各位試想這麼多無助的中小企業他們不會有資安部門啦經常說40個人、80個人、70個人他要怎麼有資安部門所以他對資安到底要怎麼面對他其實就是現在就是看運氣嘛希望駭客不要找上他或者他沒有價值讓駭客來駭他"},{"start":615.305,"end":643.032,"text":"所以重點在於說我們一定有誘因讓這些無助的中小企業他覺得我來參加這個很好建物可以幫我協助什麼我來參加這個我可以怎麼樣我通報之後可以怎麼得到什麼對待這個才是今天成立這個協調中心重要的目的因為有台灣的型態大企業他不需要你他認為他比你書發部還厲害對不對他認為他們自己就可以解決"},{"start":644.295,"end":655.129,"text":"那透過工協會我們有太多的中小企業的工協會工協會隨便一個工協會只要參加一半的會員你早就幾十萬了不會是1500個會員"},{"start":658.098,"end":684.6,"text":"部長所以本席提這個主要是告訴你說這個是替中小企業出出聲音我們要用用腦筋想想看什麼樣的方式可以讓中小企業覺得參加這個聯訪是對他們是有用的參加這個聯訪對他們的保護是有幫助的參加這個聯訪他們可以在這個無助的汪洋當中網路犯罪的汪洋當中找到一根伏木"},{"start":685.541,"end":699.029,"text":"好不好部長時間的關係啦我沒辦法再詳細我只是提醒說我還是會follow這個案子你們一定要把這個這個成效要做出來回去我跟侯院長再把整個再錄一遍好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b362fc6be05508a243e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e93f6943423fdd6745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:35:10 - 10:48:36","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":806,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:48:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:35:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時35分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長辛苦了，上個禮拜五其實我們就已經拿到教育部給我們的報告了，我大概看了一下，裡面涵蓋的、討論的部分，其實非常非常的廣，不管是從學齡前一直到國高中、大學，甚至還有原民教育，還有熟齡的教育，就是針對長者的部分，還有包含我們的學生輔導，還有很多關於校園安全的一些問題，其實都有寫在報告當中，在這裡我要給教育部一個肯定，就是這些部分其實我們都看了，也非常期許教育部將來在我們整體臺灣的教育上能夠達到一定的目標。","好，先來看一下第一張，關於剴剴案，這是我第八次站在這個地方，跟部長回顧一下，就是從過去到現在，針對剴剴案的部分，我總共質詢了七次，從3月11號媒體報導剴剴案，全國譁然，也震驚了全臺灣，這是一個全臺灣人的痛；一直到3月18號，針對衛福部的部分，我也去質詢了；在3月21號，當很多人都以為是要針對衛福部的時候，我們發現教育部也是兒福聯盟的主管機關之一，所以我也提出了一些質詢，包含林騰蛟次長也特別說到，如果最重，其實是可以廢止這個聯盟的設立；到了3月28號，我們的林次長也說，應該要強化財團法人法的管理；另外，在4月10號，林明裕次長因為在3月29號的時候，兒福聯盟提出了一個書面報告，但這份報告從頭到尾看了之後發現有報告跟沒報告是一樣的，甚至還預告今年（2024年）他們的支出會短缺，還短缺了九千七百多萬，2月份的時候，他們用9,800萬買了臺中的不動產，然後這份報告裡面就說它缺錢了，當時的次長看到這份報告後也說他看不出來兒福聯盟有檢討的決心；4月18號，我再次質詢劉次長，他說基本上，他們所有的錢包含大眾的捐款，應該用於處理以及照顧，就是兒福聯盟應該有的業務範圍之內；到了5月2號，我質詢了潘部長；5月13號潘部長有說不動產的購置來自捐款的餘額，關於這個餘額的部分，我今天就針對5月13號的這個質詢，提出我個人的一些疑問，也想請教一下我們的部長。","往下一張，兒福聯盟給教育部的一個報告，也就是109年提出的報告，裡面有他們108年所有支出的現金流量表，其實已經看到他們用結餘款項當中的3.7億購置完成，但是它只提列了2.24億，另外的1.55億放在109年當中，我想這個部分讓人有很大的疑慮，我不曉得教育部為什麼沒有看出來，我不是學會計出身，但是我跟我們的辦公室討論之後，發現他們有兩個目的：第一個目的，讓它的業務支出達到所謂所得稅法當中針對非營利財團法人章程目的達到六成者，可以免稅，所以把3.7億拆成兩年。但是它給教育部的報告當中卻說，它在108年購置3.7億的不動產，就是3.7億已經全部完成，但為什麼在109年……也就是說，教育部在110年的時候才會看到它在109年的時候，又提列了一個1.55億，除了達到六成的業務支出免稅以外，它還可以再提列準備金，這個就是他們的目的，對這部分我其實有非常大的質疑。109年蓋章的董事長叫做林志嘉，他要不要為這份很讓人匪夷所思的財報做說明？我想請教一下部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：對於委員所關心的兒福，包括許多的一些……本來這個基金會的成立就是希望能夠透過民間的捐贈來整合社會資源，希望能夠關照兒童的成長……"],["郭委員昱晴：但顯然他們在財務金流上是不清楚的，甚至是為了作帳而作帳，因為要達到百分之六十的業務支出才能夠得到免稅的條件，對這部分我非常質疑！因為2.24億，再加上109年列出來的1.55億，兩個加起來剛剛好就是點億多。所以他已經把三點七億多分成兩年來墊高，以達到六成的業務支出，就財團法人的財報來說是非常有問題的。我不是學經濟、不是學財務，也不是學會計出身的，我都已經看到這個問題，為什麼教育部看不到呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，是不是請李司長來補充說明？"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["李司長毓娟：報告委員，財團法人的財務報表都是經過專業會計師事務所查核，兒盟本身也聘請了專業會計師來做簽證……"],["郭委員昱晴：只要他們說專業，你們就給過，是這樣嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["李司長毓娟：這是會計專業，我們本身是做行政面，並依照財團法人法相關規定……"],["郭委員昱晴：財團法人法當中就包含這一部分，所以我們是不是要更嚴格地監督所提供的財報？因為今天時間有限，請事後麻煩給我們一個說法，因為我不想一直質詢剴剴案！既然教育部依財團法人法成為他們的主管機關，沒有針對他們的高層、董事做出懲處也就算了，但剴剴案沉了嗎？不可以沉！這是對全民的一個交代，不是只給我們辦公室交代！我希望教育部硬起來，可以嗎？","今天因為時間的關係，我請教第二個部分。剛剛有很多委員提到108課綱的一些問題。我是第一個提到108課綱的學習歷程檔案是不是可以在將來的升學比例上做調整的委員，比例是不是可以往下降？讓很多的學生跟學生家長們可以稍微喘口氣？我們來看一下報告部分，我們發現很多學生在製作學習歷程檔案時，有15.6%在有問題時會請教班級老師；9.1%會請教科任老師；3.5%會請教輔導老師。因為108課綱的學習歷程檔案而去求助於校方的，只占了28.2%，其他71.8%的孩子，在不知道怎麼寫學習歷程檔案的時候，包含補習班在內，都是他們求助的管道。就立意良好的學習歷程檔案來講，在實施中間的確出現很多很多問題！就這部分，是不是可以請教育部好好研議一下學習歷程檔案，讓孩子能夠真正地寫下他們心目當中，他們將來進了大學，將來可能大學畢業之後想要的一個志向？這比任何事情都來得重要。因為我們發現很多孩子就算他從高一上下學期就開始寫學習歷程檔案，每一學期都寫，但其實到了高三，他們發現他們還是很焦慮！因為很多學系跟他想要的學習歷程檔案，跟他將來對於職業或興趣，其實是有一些背離的。所以這部分是不是可以在比例上來做調整？我不是說不要學習歷程檔案，而是在比例上來做調整，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指正。學習歷程檔案基本上就是一個重要的參考資料，並沒有比例上的……"],["郭委員昱晴：但升學比例，也就是學測成績到某一個程度，學習歷程檔案就會成為臨門一腳的關鍵！這個比例是高的，目前至少高達百分之二、三十！我的意思是可以把這部分稍微拉低。之前就有很多教授說，有60%的教授表示不知道學習歷程檔案到底是學生寫的？還是學生家長寫的？還是外面補習班寫的？我不認識這個孩子啊！我只光看文字來決定這百分之二、三十，由這臨門一腳來決定他想要進的科系，這是有問題的！所以我在想是不是可以稍微聽一下一般孩子們在學習歷程檔案當中所碰到的真實狀況跟困境？這部分我想教育部要好好努力。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝，我們會來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：最後一點時間我們來看一下公立幼兒園。5月除了是報稅季以外，也有很多適齡的孩子家長們要參加公立幼兒園抽籤。他們說，明明就是少子化，但是公立的永遠都抽不到！怎麼這麼難抽？我到底該怎麼辦？這是不是資源配置上的一個問題？舉個例子來講，教育部可能會說，不會啊，有很多的小學有閒置教室，閒置教室空出來就可以成為公立幼兒園的空間了，不會有什麼配置上的問題。回過頭去想，當有小學閒置教室，也就是說連小學都招不滿了，怎麼可能會期待幼兒園呢？甚至是來這邊抽公立幼兒園呢？這是對的政策放在不對的地方，這是資源分配的不夠妥善。所以教育部是不是應該注意公立幼兒園跟準公幼問題？現在很多人一窩蜂想往準公幼去，但問題是，公立幼兒園還是有人有需要，而且還是進不去！這部分是不是也要好好想一想？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒。我們會積極來瞭解第一線的問題並謀求改善。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外，有關學前身障孩子的學習權益與問題方面，在現在的巡迴輔導師當中，一個人要負擔二十四個孩子，光是跑來跑去，舟車勞頓，光是用巡迴的方式體力上就已經負荷不了了，更何況其中還有13%是不具教師資格的，這會嚴重影響到受教的孩子們！這部分也請好好研議一下，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天因為時間關係，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝兩位，部長先請回座。","接下來我們請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.43909375,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.41784375,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.59784375,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.102218750000002,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.80221875,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.96659375,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.962218750000005,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.555968750000005,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.96659375,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.31596875000001,"end":67.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.49721875,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.15096875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.08284375000001,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.41034375000001,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.92471875000001,"end":87.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.98346875,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.21471875,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.86846875,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.37034375,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.35221875,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.62971875000001,"end":112.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.81784375000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.26846875000001,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.45784375,"end":133.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.41096875,"end":137.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.59596875,"end":140.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.84846875,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.30346875,"end":155.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.78284375,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.18721875,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.25846875000002,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.14784375000002,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.81284375,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.78721875000002,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.01784375000003,"end":195.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.57846875,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.37971875000002,"end":200.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.71659375000002,"end":208.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.92659375000002,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.31659375,"end":229.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.90221875,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.70284375000003,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.34221875000003,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.43034375000002,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.07096875,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.96909375,"end":262.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.44971875000005,"end":282.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.83909375,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.93909375000004,"end":303.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.59534375000004,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.45596875,"end":309.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.42096875000004,"end":334.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.85221875,"end":355.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.94909375000003,"end":334.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.44659375000003,"end":337.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.09534375000004,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.53221875,"end":377.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.89596875,"end":382.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.34221875000003,"end":401.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.10346875000005,"end":403.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.72721875,"end":405.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.21659375,"end":414.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.40221875000003,"end":406.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.24096875000004,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.65409375,"end":448.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.47971875,"end":449.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.88471875000005,"end":449.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.08721875000003,"end":515.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.54534375,"end":587.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.9640937500001,"end":595.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.6297187499999,"end":606.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.50159375,"end":626.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.4584687500001,"end":612.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.1709687499999,"end":616.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.45346875,"end":617.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.03534375,"end":620.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.1028437500001,"end":620.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.12784375,"end":622.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.6672187500001,"end":665.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.3659687500001,"end":666.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.0872187500001,"end":696.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.6984687500001,"end":732.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.4015937500001,"end":761.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.03409375,"end":769.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.9697187500001,"end":783.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.5203437499999,"end":800.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.3234687500001,"end":804.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.96471875,"end":802.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.12909375,"end":803.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.03159375,"end":806.2509687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":10.972,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長來我們請部長部長辛苦了上個禮拜五其實我們就已經拿到教育部給我們的這個報告了那裡頭我大概也看了一下其實我們涵蓋的這個討論的部分其實非常非常的廣"},{"start":30.253,"end":30.656,"text":"不管是從這個學金前"},{"start":32.901,"end":59.949,"text":"一直到國高中大學甚至還有原民教育然後還有這個首領的教育就是針對這個長者的部分那還包含我們這個學生輔導還有很多的一個校園安全的一些問題其實我們都寫在報告當中在這裡要給教育部一個肯定就是這個部分其實我們都看了那非常的期許教育部將來可以在我們的這個整體的臺灣的教育部分我們能夠達到一定的目標"},{"start":61.189,"end":78.743,"text":"好 那我先來看一下第一章我想凱凱案這是我第8次站在這個地方那可能部長跟您回顧一下就是過去到現在我總共質詢了7次針對凱凱案的部分從3月11日媒體報導的凱凱案全國嘩然那也震驚了全台灣"},{"start":86.327,"end":109.652,"text":"這是一個全台灣人的痛一直到3月18日在衛福部的部分我也去質詢了在3月21日當很多人都以為是要針對衛福部的時候其實我們發現教育部也是我們俄福聯盟的主管機關之一所以我也提出了一些質詢那包含林騰角次長他也特別說到如果最重他其實是可以"},{"start":110.712,"end":132.725,"text":"非指這個聯盟的設立好到3月28號我們的這個林次長他也說應該要強化財團法人法的一個管理那另外在4月10號林明裕次長因為在3月29號的時候而服聯盟提出了一個書面報告但這份報告從頭到尾看了之後發現有報告跟沒報告是一樣的"},{"start":133.445,"end":155.072,"text":"他還在預告2024年他們今年的支出會短缺還短缺了九千七百多萬二月份的時候他們用九千八百萬去買了臺中的不動產然後這份報告裡面就說他缺錢了好那當時的次長呢看到我們這份報告的時候他也說他看不出來F聯盟他有檢討的決心"},{"start":157.054,"end":168.587,"text":"4月18日我再次的質詢這是劉司長他說基本上他們的所有的包含大眾的一個捐款應該要用於處理以及照顧"},{"start":170.188,"end":172.631,"text":"而服聯盟應該要有的這個業務範圍之內到了5月2號我質詢了潘部長那5月13號潘部長有說不動產的購置來自捐款的餘額那這個餘額的部分"},{"start":188.024,"end":199.926,"text":"我今天就針對5月13日的這個質詢我來提出我個人的一些疑問也想請教一下我們的部長的部分好 我們看到往下一張"},{"start":203.105,"end":222.439,"text":"當兒福聯盟給教育部的一個報告也就是在109年的報告是在看他們108年的所有的支出的這個現金的流量表的部分其實已經看到他們用的節約款項當中的3.7億購置完成但是他只提列了2.24億"},{"start":224.46,"end":248.737,"text":"他另外的1.55億他放在109年當中那我想這個部分其實有一些些很大的疑慮我不曉得教育部為什麼沒有看出來我不是學會計出身但是我跟我的辦公室討論之後發現他們有兩個目的第一個目的是他要讓他的業務支出達到所謂的"},{"start":249.477,"end":278.428,"text":"所得稅法當中針對非營利財團法人他的章程目的要達到六成他可以免稅所以他把3.7億拆成兩年但是他給教育部的報告當中他說他在108年購置3.7億的不動產就已經3.7億全部完成但為什麼在109年也就是說教育部會在110年的時候才看到他在109年的時候他又"},{"start":279.068,"end":302.355,"text":"提列了一個叫做1.55億那他還可以除了免稅以外達到六成的業務支出他還可以再提列準備金這個是他們的目的在這個部分我其實有非常大的一個質疑而當時在109年蓋章的董事長就叫做林志佳他要不要為這份"},{"start":303.675,"end":309.515,"text":"很讓人匪夷所思的財報做出一個說明在這裡我想請教一下部長"},{"start":312.469,"end":332.941,"text":"我想剛才委員所關心的這個兒福包括許多的一些本來這個單位的一個成立這個基金會成立就是希望能夠關照我們體制內透過民間的一個捐贈然後整個社區的社會的一個支援能夠關照我們這個兒童更多的一些"},{"start":334.242,"end":349.392,"text":"但顯然他們在財務金流的部分其實是不清楚的甚至是他是為了作帳而作帳要達到60%的業務支出才能夠得到所謂的免稅的一個條件在這個部分我非常的質疑因為2.24億再加上109年列出來的1.55億兩個加起來剛剛好就是3.7億多"},{"start":356.624,"end":380.121,"text":"所以他已經把3.7億多分成兩年去墊高他達到六成的業務支出這個部分就財團法人法其實這個財報是非常有問題我是一個不是學經濟不是學財務不是學會計出身的我都已經看到這個問題為什麼我們的教育部看不到呢這個跟委員報告是不是能夠請這個理事長來補充說明好"},{"start":384.423,"end":398.127,"text":"報告委員,我們的財團法人的財務報表都是經過專業的會計師事務所查核而蒙自己本身也聘請了專業的會計師來做簽證所以只要他們說他們專業你們就給過是這樣嗎?"},{"start":405.598,"end":432.143,"text":"這個是會計專業我們本身是做行政面還有依照財團法人法相關的規定在財團法人法當中就包含這一部分所以我們是不是要更嚴格的來監督他們所提供的財報這個事後因為今天時間有限這個事後麻煩給我們一個說法因為我不想要再一直質詢凱凱案的部分我們希望教育部成為他的財團法人法當中的主管機關"},{"start":433.263,"end":448.122,"text":"沒有針對他們的高層董事的部分做出懲處也就算了 開開案成了嗎 不可以成這是對全民的一個交代 不是只有給我們辦公室一個交代 我希望教育部印起來 可以嗎"},{"start":449.502,"end":476.758,"text":"好那今天時間的關係第二個部分我想剛剛其實有很多位委員特別有提到所謂的現在108課綱的一些問題喔那我想我是第一個在108課綱當中提到學習歷程檔案是不是可以在將來他們升學的比例上的調整這個比例是不是可以往下降讓很多的學生跟很多的學生家長們可以稍微喘口氣喔我們來看一下這個報告的部分喔"},{"start":479.419,"end":488.907,"text":"學習歷程檔案我們發現了很多學生他們在學習歷程檔案的製作上面有15.6%他會去有問題請教班級導師9.1%他會請教科任老師3.5%會請教輔導老師而整個整體他們因為108課綱當中的學習歷程檔案"},{"start":503.918,"end":525.297,"text":"會去求助於校方的只占了28.2%其他71.8%的孩子在不知道怎麼寫學習歷程檔案的時候包含補習班也是他們要求助的管道我想這針對所謂的我們利益良好的學習歷程檔案來講"},{"start":526.698,"end":544.855,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":544.975,"end":563.853,"text":"他們心目當中他們將來進了大學將來可能大學畢業之後他們想要的一個志向這個比任何事情都還要來得更重要因為我們發現有很多的孩子就算他從高一上下學期每一個學期都在寫學期歷程檔案的時候其實到了高三他們會發現他們還是很焦慮"},{"start":566.536,"end":587.269,"text":"因為我們很多的學系跟他想要的學習歷程檔案當中他將來對於職業或將來對於他的興趣其實他是會有一些背離的一個狀況這個部分我們是不是可以在比例上來做調整我不是說不要學習歷程檔案而是在比例上我們來做調整可以嗎我想謝謝委員的一個指正我們學習歷程檔案基本上就是一個"},{"start":596.664,"end":626.664,"text":"﹗"},{"start":626.844,"end":646.574,"text":"之前就有很多的教授他們也說60%的教授說我不知道這個學習歷程檔案到底是這個學生寫的還是學生家長寫的還是他是外面補習班寫的我不認識這個孩子啊我只光看文字的部分來決定這百分之二三十他臨門一腳進他想要學習的一個科系這是有問題的喔"},{"start":650.996,"end":651.136,"text":"我們會來努力"},{"start":666.224,"end":692.622,"text":"好那最後一點時間齁我們來看一下就是我們的公立幼兒園那麼在今年也就是上個禮拜其實5月除了是報稅以外那當然也有很多的士林的孩子的家長們他們要開始抽公立的幼兒園但是他們就說了明明就是少子化但是公立的我永遠都抽不到怎麼這麼難抽我到底該怎麼辦"},{"start":696.044,"end":696.064,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":715.785,"end":724.377,"text":"稍後回想當有小學閒置的教室也就是說連小學都抽不滿連小學都招不滿了怎麼可能會期待還有幼兒園要來這邊抽公立的幼兒園呢我想這是"},{"start":733.75,"end":761.31,"text":"對的政策放在不對的地方這是資源上分配的一個不夠不夠妥善所以這個部分是不是我們的教育部這個地方可能也要在所謂的公立幼兒園跟準公幼的部分現在很多人一窩蜂的想要往準公幼去但是問題是公立幼兒園還是有人有需要但問題是還是進不去這個部分我們是不是也要往這個部分要來再好好的來想一想"},{"start":763.586,"end":776.798,"text":"議員的一個提醒我想我們會來積極來瞭解第一線上的一些這些問題來謀求改善還有另外就是學前的這個身障孩子他們的一個學就是學習的權益的一個問題然後我想現在的這個巡迴輔導師當中一個人要負擔24個孩子"},{"start":783.644,"end":783.844,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3b8ad2f8a694fcef15186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e5681eeb3af1d310c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:29:46 - 10:47:24","影片長度":"00:17:38","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":1058,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:47:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:29:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.239718750000002,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.167843750000003,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.87221875,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.06971875,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.23784375000001,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.65471875,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.73409375,"end":116.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.75534375000001,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.39471875,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.40721875,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.14534375,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.73346875000001,"end":158.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.13221875000002,"end":163.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.25846875000002,"end":168.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.62909375,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.54659375,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.98346875000001,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.58659375000002,"end":198.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.53159375,"end":207.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.87596875000003,"end":211.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.64346875,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.60909375,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.46909375,"end":220.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.90784375,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.38034375,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.83596875,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.62909375,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.64596875,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.48159375,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.05846875000003,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.03721875,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.00659375000004,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.02346875,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.35659375,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.37346875000003,"end":272.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.32221875,"end":269.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.35596875000005,"end":277.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.39721875000004,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.29971875,"end":296.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.54159375,"end":302.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.81909375000004,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.18159375000005,"end":308.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.12596875,"end":313.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.19721875000005,"end":313.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.34909375,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.68659375000004,"end":314.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.82159375000003,"end":314.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.29409375,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.96909375,"end":325.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.83221875000004,"end":331.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.35034375000004,"end":333.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.52721875000003,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.02909375,"end":337.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.08784375000005,"end":338.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.84721875,"end":346.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.02846875,"end":341.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.86284375,"end":348.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.41971875,"end":350.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.64284375,"end":352.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.95471875000004,"end":353.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.54096875000005,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.11471875,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.76346875,"end":400.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.20034375,"end":403.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.37284375,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.80284375,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.22034375000004,"end":409.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.06409375000004,"end":409.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.38471875000005,"end":411.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.08471875000004,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.97909375,"end":417.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.14721875000004,"end":430.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.01846875,"end":431.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.10284375000003,"end":434.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.32159375000003,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.12284375,"end":440.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.36284375,"end":455.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.43221875,"end":499.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.61534375,"end":505.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.09534375000004,"end":514.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.1740937500001,"end":516.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.48596875,"end":532.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.28534375,"end":535.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.5209687500001,"end":540.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.68909375,"end":548.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.58659375,"end":569.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.8828437500001,"end":570.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.5747187500001,"end":574.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.67909375,"end":579.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.88534375,"end":595.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.0222187500001,"end":613.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.97721875,"end":616.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.1159687500001,"end":637.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.42909375,"end":670.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.75721875,"end":671.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.77409375,"end":684.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.2703437499999,"end":684.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.4809687500001,"end":684.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.68346875,"end":684.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.95346875,"end":690.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.9440937500001,"end":706.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.9753437500001,"end":707.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.3803437500001,"end":707.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.5828437499999,"end":727.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.4409687500001,"end":727.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.59659375,"end":734.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":728.03534375,"end":728.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.25409375,"end":732.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.4309687500001,"end":734.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.51534375,"end":734.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.9709687500001,"end":745.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.99034375,"end":762.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.3759687500001,"end":762.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.9497187500001,"end":768.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.05096875,"end":763.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.5647187500001,"end":780.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.72909375,"end":771.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.39471875,"end":779.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.2634687500001,"end":782.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.9128437500001,"end":792.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.3003437500001,"end":788.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.1609687499999,"end":788.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.29096875,"end":803.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.3103437500001,"end":818.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.41346875,"end":834.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.4953437500001,"end":838.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.41034375,"end":845.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.85659375,"end":846.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.6115937500001,"end":852.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.85971875,"end":856.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.82096875,"end":861.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":860.9428437500001,"end":861.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.6472187500001,"end":865.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":865.4822187500001,"end":867.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":866.1572187500001,"end":870.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.89909375,"end":871.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.15221875,"end":871.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.47284375,"end":888.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.5234687500001,"end":871.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":888.8203437500001,"end":896.1609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":896.3972187500001,"end":900.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.08846875,"end":906.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":909.72846875,"end":913.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.2847187500001,"end":927.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.71721875,"end":932.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.48846875,"end":939.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.31846875,"end":941.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":942.16221875,"end":947.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":948.7603437500002,"end":963.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":964.3190937500001,"end":965.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.7365937500001,"end":972.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":972.7903437500001,"end":982.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":983.55659375,"end":986.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":986.59409375,"end":990.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":991.6397187500002,"end":993.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":994.8290937500001,"end":999.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1000.3472187500001,"end":1002.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1002.77721875,"end":1006.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1006.3715937500001,"end":1009.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1010.0672187500002,"end":1017.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1018.26846875,"end":1020.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1021.6940937500001,"end":1027.5159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1027.60034375,"end":1046.2134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1046.98971875,"end":1053.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1053.7059687500002,"end":1053.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1053.73971875,"end":1054.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1054.1278437500002,"end":1054.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1055.00534375,"end":1056.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1056.6422187500002,"end":1056.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1056.96284375,"end":1057.67159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.26,"end":11.245,"text":"主席,各位大家午安喔,是不是還是請我們何部長好,請何部長委員好"},{"start":15.542,"end":43.713,"text":"呃部長這個是曾委員所提的勞基法第五十條的修正草案喔新增一星期到五日的產假由僱主給新的規定喔你們的修法意見裡面提到說適用勞基法的女性勞工也可以改依勞工請假規則請普通傷病假一年內沒有超過30日部分喔工資則辦發給齁那為僱主不得因這個勞工產假請普通傷病假而扣發其全勤那你們後來又講說"},{"start":45.414,"end":68.699,"text":"為什麼你們反對呢?因為所增加的薪資費用整體雖有限但個別小型微型的企業仍有相當負擔為避免婦女受到隱性的就業歧視影響其工作權益建議審慎評估但是我要在這裡跟你講啊何部長條評司這種答覆真的是歧視我們女性你竟然強調說所增加的薪資費用整體來講有限"},{"start":71.179,"end":84.649,"text":"卻又說避免女性受到隱性的就業歧視你這就是假無心嘛打著怕你被歧視而訂出歧視的政策"},{"start":85.731,"end":101.005,"text":"那因為懷孕生產流產的都是女性在承擔半新的普通雙病假大家都有男女老少通通都有可是我們今天講是我們唯獨我們女性才會有的女性流產"},{"start":101.986,"end":124.022,"text":"你用我們跟大家都有的普通傷病假一樣,要扣自己的半薪病假。這顯然不公平。你都知道女性的生小孩是國家整體勞動力的再生產最重要的。而在今天女性為了整體勞動力的再生產而生出來,我們說生有過、生有出來,大家就給他產假。生沒出來,"},{"start":129.446,"end":133.089,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我是要跟你講這個才是上個月我跟這個許明春部長質詢過然後他答應本席說他也認同而且要進行研議的政策今天你在這裡馬上打臉我打臉許明春然後反對我要再跟你分享一個就是說紐西蘭喔"},{"start":152.963,"end":162.903,"text":"紐西蘭在20212021年修法通過,流產的女性跟她的伴侶可以請三天的有薪的商假。"},{"start":164.315,"end":181.676,"text":"我們就不要講說這個價別的名稱啊流產的商價但給予有薪價有薪價不是叫我們請自己的扣自己的餒是看見我們女性流產她不只是生理上而且在心理上都需要時間調適"},{"start":183.978,"end":207.516,"text":"這個就是真正的母性保護你不該只是看見生產的美好然後都沒有看到我們女人對流產的失去心理上的調適的問題所以在這裡啊部長有心的流產價你說啊這個性供法已經有了性供法給價但沒有給薪啊勞基法要給薪"},{"start":208.917,"end":218.454,"text":"未滿三個月、兩個月以上沒有給薪啊你都說這個錢才一點點而已為什麼要打著反歧視然後定出歧視的反對呢?"},{"start":223.291,"end":247.752,"text":"委員其實我知道您先前一直有在為這件事情在努力那我也很肯定那我並沒有打臉我剛剛也說了我們會來評估那比較重點是這樣定了要有用總點是今天的提案的委員的提案全部都是雇主給啦都是要雇主給事實上"},{"start":248.913,"end":257.54,"text":"這部分顧主能不能做得到這確實是一件要評估的事情而我會覺得如果真的要顯然你這樣說法是你同意給價給錢現在錢是顧主給還是這個基金給是這樣子的意思吧"},{"start":264.125,"end":267.268,"text":"其實重點會是在這裡,如果你要做的話可能要公共化處理。錢公共化處理。我覺得你要看到我們女性為國家的勞動力在生產。那我現在就要講說大家還要放寬聘僱的門檻。"},{"start":283.643,"end":308.428,"text":"救福法第46條的修正條文希望以年齡作為聘僱外籍看護的條件但是我們都知道外籍看護他的提供的是24小時的照顧但是大家所值的理由大概就是說需要有人陪伴需要有人看著他但是提這個他們預估這些委員提案大概預估是要增加多少的外籍人力"},{"start":310.394,"end":322.778,"text":"這樣的話會增加到五十二萬喔五十二萬那我要問一個問題是請問有沒有遠遠不覺得移工輸出國願意輸出這麼大量的移工然後到台灣來因為大家都覺得通通放寬很好如果有遠遠不覺得外籍移工可以來台灣我也贊成請問有沒有這是一個請問有沒有考慮的問題啊"},{"start":338.911,"end":358.379,"text":"不是啦我在問你因為現實政策上移工輸入有沒有移工輸出國有沒有這麼大量的勞動力可以輸出?其實現在全球都在搶工啦真的是還蠻困難的為什麼我要講這個是因為八十歲以上的長者生活起居可能需要旁人協助"},{"start":359.178,"end":381.066,"text":"但是是不是需要24小時的看護就有待商榷了。那我們現在以年齡劃分恐怕會排擠到真正照顧者的被看需要照顧的被看護者讓現在挑工的尤其是重症的缺乏照顧人力的問題更惡劣惡化就大家都覺得我要去照顧輕症的啊這個好看護的啊"},{"start":388.789,"end":389.029,"text":"他們不想顧了吧?"},{"start":389.029,"end":389.45,"text":"不想顧會怎麼樣?保證?"},{"start":389.45,"end":389.75,"text":"他們不想顧會怎麼樣?"},{"start":406.986,"end":430.134,"text":"所以委員這就是我們擔心的。會完結啊。完結了喔。勞僱雙方吵架。就會就容易言語、肢體然後就說這個威脅要轉換僱主了。所以你知道現在僱主尤其是重度失能的僱主身心俱疲啊。有移工也是很身心俱疲。因為大家要去顧好顧的。要不然就是要去工廠賺更多錢的。"},{"start":435.473,"end":454.426,"text":"所以我在講說大家都要當好人大家都要當這個當這個容易請容易的都可以來來看申請看護那我們要有一個前提要一個前提是移工必須要有源源不絕的移工可是有嗎"},{"start":456.462,"end":472.496,"text":"那我現在在跟你分享就是說衛福部111年進行老人狀況生活調查報告80歲以上的人口不需要他人協助的有51.93%需要他人協助及項目數比例是48.07%其中"},{"start":475.558,"end":498.779,"text":"累計四個項目就是說他的這個需要需求性比較高的是38%所以以年齡作為聘僱外籍看護的資格在現行外籍看護還有仲介也在挑工的媒合的狀況裡面恐怕這樣子下去會排擠真正需要24小時重症照顧的需求"},{"start":499.619,"end":504.202,"text":"但是我雖然是這麼說你這樣子80歲就通通可以申請然後呢會排擠到重症可是你也不能否定啊輕度中度的照顧需求也存在那這些人要怎麼樣"},{"start":517.543,"end":535.521,"text":"這就是長照2.0我們不是在講長照嗎?長照2.0要邁向3.0但是仍然趕不上國人的照顧需求所以這就衛福部的責任就來了你在外籍移工上你沒有全部開放"},{"start":536.442,"end":554.172,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":554.292,"end":573.823,"text":"所以在還沒有完全達到失能以前你就讓這些老人家輕度的、中度的就導入24小時的外籍看護反而會有可能會加速退化不利於健康老化可是那衛福部你要做什麼衛福部衛福部3.0衛福部誰來衛福部3.0在哪裡啊"},{"start":581.096,"end":595.424,"text":"一有照顧需求就想到直接聘僱外勞外籍醫工、外籍看護24小時的照顧又便宜又方便但這個對沒有完全失能的老人延緩老化不是一件好事啊"},{"start":596.124,"end":612.976,"text":"所以這也是我們長照2.0一直在推的日照中心拖老服務最核心的服務可是呢我們現在大家優先想到就一對一24小時的外籍看護優先與長照政策以至於我們要改變社會照顧的觀念真的是很難啦但我現在要問衛福部啦我們總統"},{"start":618.42,"end":636.872,"text":"來總統當初提出了長照3.0的政見比如說要新增居家或社區晚間到宅照顧夜間緊急服務建立24小時的重度失能者的支持服務還有"},{"start":638.473,"end":652.442,"text":"提高一對多的社區照顧服務比例,增加人力運用效率。提高一對多的社區照顧服務比例,增加人力運用效率。提高一對多的社區照顧服務比例,增加人力運用效率。提高一對多的社區照顧服務比例,增加人力運用效率。提高一對多的社區照顧服務比例,增加人力運用效率。"},{"start":668.653,"end":689.099,"text":"衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,你先來做到哪裡?衛福部,"},{"start":691.239,"end":702.184,"text":"舉家或社區的晚間到宅照顧、夜間緊急服務、建立24小時的重度失能者的支持服務。我不要談我剛才講那麼多,就談這三項好了。這三項你們的規劃是什麼時候要開始做?"},{"start":707.466,"end":726.47,"text":"是。跟我委員也報告。剛剛其實你也提到就是因為國人聘請移工其實是民國78年就開始。所以遠遠早於國家推動長照政策之前。所以這個部分怎麼樣能夠翻轉國人的觀念而不是所有的長照都要24小時。你可不可以就我的問題回答就好了。那我們在講的是長照啦。我沒有跟你談這個移工服務啦。政策啦。我現在跟你講長照。是。"},{"start":734.952,"end":761.671,"text":"那所以因為這個會關聯因為要帶到24小時目前在長照政策是沒有辦法用一對一到宅去提供24小時的照顧服務這個是賴總統的政見他講新增我沒有叫你24小時他在講居家或社區的晚間到宅照顧夜間緊急服務24小時的支持服務又不是叫你整天看著他支持服務餒"},{"start":763.172,"end":769.597,"text":"您們都沒有認真的看待賴總統的這個長照3.0喔?"},{"start":769.597,"end":791.593,"text":"有,我們其實目前... 有沒有做準備?因為2.0是到115年,所以我們大概就是...115年很快捏。今天113年捏。你現在沒有準備115年就要憑空就掉下來嗎?所以我們才說為什麼這麼多委員要提案要直接這樣做?"},{"start":793.325,"end":802.571,"text":"因為你的長照制度銜接不來啊配套沒有來啊所以大家才會說乾脆大家都聘外勞外籍看護就好了啊好那請回主席我說最後一個重整啦外界不斷的倡議要鬆綁聘顧外籍看護門檻但我要講說部長政府更應該關心這個照顧品質"},{"start":819.471,"end":834.356,"text":"在沒有辦法確實檢核來台前90個小時的照顧訓練那來台後的補充訓練實體課程的成效非常差顧主對於看護技術的滿意度七成八"},{"start":835.586,"end":856.628,"text":"所以我們在這裡一直在講說第一個可望禁訴填補照顧人力的需求下還有法規沒有強制的這個規定下你的這個事後的補充訓練當然提升照顧品質的成效是有限的啊"},{"start":857.944,"end":859.006,"text":"這樣要怎麼辦?"},{"start":859.006,"end":860.849,"text":"你的實體課程你知道上得多爛嗎?"},{"start":860.849,"end":868.74,"text":"那是長照服務法那是長照服務法裡面的規定我是在講外籍看護來台的訓練 我是在講外籍看護來台的訓練"},{"start":871.597,"end":879.708,"text":"我再講的是拼顧外籍看護來台他必須要照顧訓練外國受訓了九十小時怎麼訓練我們檢核不出來啦但是來台以後要補充訓練你們實體課還有線上課你知道你們實體課開的多差嗎"},{"start":888.88,"end":899.987,"text":"你們開課量能一百班以上五百人以上但實體課程2022年關成功開辦一班一百班以上的準備只成功開一班六個人參訓倒載訓練則是2020以後沒有任何人申請"},{"start":909.915,"end":932.758,"text":"我們的意思是說其實長照不是給他聘一個外籍看護來照顧。外籍看護來,你們就沒有管了。當然長照品質是衛福部了。但是呢我們外籍看護這個雇傭關係不好有時候是來自於照顧品質不好、雇主不滿意嘛。那現在在這種狀況裡面我們也把長照的喘息服務計畫也納入了。"},{"start":934.02,"end":939.727,"text":"創造cover到我們的外籍看護讓他一個一年有幾天的喘息天數你知道嗎?五十二天那是漸漸增加五十二天等於是國家幫他買單休息日啊"},{"start":949.077,"end":963.554,"text":"國家幫他們買單休息日但是你不可以政府提供的經費讓你喘息結果其實僱主政府幫你買單了然後你對於這個照顧品質僱主也是獲利者啊"},{"start":964.375,"end":964.515,"text":"議員：林淑芬："},{"start":984.542,"end":1001.821,"text":"60%部長我知道你不知道我告訴你就好有放假平均一個月放假幾天放假幾次你知道嗎一次57.7%然後二到三次的是25.6%都不放假了幾乎四成原因是原因是"},{"start":1002.862,"end":1020.768,"text":"你們說的他們想要賺加班費啦其實呢還有家中無替代照顧人力啦那不放假的話雇主發的加班費大概都有九成五有發啦但是是很少很少很少的啦其實簡單的講是雇主也不想要他放啦"},{"start":1021.921,"end":1034.149,"text":"護主也不想要她放。即便我們有長照喘息服務了,護主也懶得申請啦。52天護主也不想申請啦。我就是要這一個一直用一直用一年全年365天都無休我也不需要你給我喘息雖然政府有喘息所以我跟你講就是說其實問題還蠻嚴重的照顧的品質啦還有"},{"start":1047.326,"end":1050.311,"text":"關乎者的勞動休息也很重要啦。這個真的是問題重重。好,謝謝林委員。"}]}},{"id":"153007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b38a8e8ecf25669d74442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e0de2545e6324be585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:28:52 - 10:39:01","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:39:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:28:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":352,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時28分）謝謝主席李昆澤召委，我們請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["何委員欣純：黃部長好。在我進入質詢之前，我想再請教一件事，因為今天有媒體報導我們臺灣低軌衛星的進度，因為唐鳳部長的時代，在花蓮地震的時候我們首次啟用了低軌衛星，根據媒體的報導，以及唐鳳部長之前跟我講的，不僅僅是低軌衛星，還有中低軌衛星並用，用於花蓮的救災，當時唐鳳部長說那個訊號優於預期啦，我不知道你們預期中的是怎麼樣，又是怎樣判斷它是優於預期。我們合作的是英國的OneWeb，對不對？而不是馬斯克的星鏈嘛，當然這個有一些考量，我知道，尤其馬斯克有很多事業重心是在中國，甚至可能因為他比較親中的態度，對我們來講是有一點疑慮，所以我們沒有選擇星鏈，而是OneWeb。我想請教黃部長，未來臺灣在低軌衛星的發展上，部長的態度如何？你的預期如何？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，本來這個韌性就需要各式各樣的通信管道，衛星是一個非常重要的管道。當然，OneWeb是目前跟我們合作比較密切的，這是低軌的部分，我們還有中軌，還有同步衛星，我們都會一起用，所以這會是一個整合。至於相關細節部分，是不是請司長……"],["何委員欣純：細節部分是不是以書面報告提供給我，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，再提書面報告。"],["何委員欣純：我只是想問部長一下，當時唐鳳部長是說，低軌衛星我們跟OneWeb合作，你剛剛說是多方合作、多元合作，但是OneWeb現在起碼是我們選擇的重點合作對象嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：目前，對。"],["何委員欣純：唐鳳部長說到今年下半年度，OneWeb提供的服務到年底應該會有770個點，請問這個進度如期如實嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我目前所收到的訊息並沒有說會有問題，所以我們還是朝著這個目標在努力就是了。"],["何委員欣純：朝這個目標在努力，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["何委員欣純：我希望能提供書面報告給我，因為這個關係到未來臺灣不管是在戰略上或者是在廣泛的服務上，甚至在緊急救災的時候，透這個衛星的確保，確保網路訊號能夠正常，讓我們所有的訊息都能夠接收得到，這個很重要，而且接收到的訊息要安全、正常而且要精準，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯，資安的防護……"],["何委員欣純：然後訊號不能斷嘛，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：所以我希望你給我一個詳細的書面報告，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：而且我希望低軌衛星跟OneWeb的合作，這個服務到年底的770點不會跳票，甚至希望能夠增加，這樣子才能夠有廣泛且全方位的服務。","接著，部長來拜訪我的時候有講到，現在從上到下、從行政院到部會都在講打詐，剛剛林俊憲委員也有提到，我們現在的詐騙案量是持續的增加，投資詐騙又是增幅最大的，數字我就不要再講了，但是我要講的問題是什麼？我們如果要阻絕社群投資詐騙廣告，只有通報下架真的還不夠，因為刑事局公布的第一季網路平臺違法投資廣告，臉書居首，我們努力地去反映、努力地去要求，下架的數量也達到3.2萬則，但是只有這樣還不夠，因為這樣的投資詐騙廣告層出不窮，剛剛陳素月委員也有提到嘛！我就想，我們去年6月30號通過了投顧法第七十條之一，就是希望投資理財廣告能夠採實名制，但是這個投顧法修法之後到現在，感覺好像也沒什麼效用，因為這個投顧法第七十條之一的實名制只是加強投放方的自我資訊揭露而已，並沒有強制性也要求平臺一定要怎樣怎樣怎樣啦，所以部長剛剛在回答其他委員時好像有說要邀請這些平臺業者來喝咖啡或者是邀請他們來商量，因為目前還在無法可管的情況之下，但是部長，只有喝咖啡夠嗎？你剛剛講威脅兩個字，我是覺得用字不太妥啦，但是嚴格的督促，甚至用其他的政策工具，是不是可以來拜託、是不是可以來督促我們的平臺業者，更進一步地從源頭管理開始更積極地落實實名制，部長，你覺得呢？"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒有錯，我剛剛講的就是說要用法去管，在法沒有通過以前，就是用各式各樣的管道來跟他們溝通。剛剛有講的就是，我們第一個還是希望有打詐通報查詢網，能夠把通報時間縮短，讓下架時間快一點。但是我還是很強調一點就是，其實詐騙的方法及管道太多，所以識詐能力的提升是很重要的，我也特別講為什麼要有這樣一個服務，就是讓民眾在看到這樣訊息的時候，比如說將來在臉書上看到某些名人廣告，就可以馬上到這個查詢網來看那個廣告到底是不是真的，再決定要不要……"],["何委員欣純：你這個查詢平臺的建立要多久？"],["黃部長彥男：3個月之內會上架。"],["何委員欣純：3個月之內？可以更快一點嗎？更快一點，好嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們可以努力，但是就是……"],["何委員欣純：以你們的專業技術還要到3個月以後喔？"],["黃部長彥男：對，至於說那個……"],["何委員欣純：我就跟你講還有其他的政策工具，還有其他我們已經立法的工具、修法的工具啊！"],["黃部長彥男：對，那個……"],["何委員欣純：在唐鳳部長時代，我們修正了電子簽章法嘛，因為你們一直在說，我們要推平臺上架的投資廣告要驗證，驗什麼？驗數位簽章嘛，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對、對、對。"],["何委員欣純：現在我們社群平臺如何驗證？我的意思是說，電子簽章法三讀通過到現在，你們的驗證，第一個……"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以要強迫業者……"],["何委員欣純：進行到哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：強迫業者要能夠……"],["何委員欣純：你說你們強迫業者，但是你們用什麼工具去強迫業者啊！"],["黃部長彥男：打詐專法第三十條有這樣的要求。"],["何委員欣純：在專法還沒通過之前，你們也沒有辦法強制業者啊！也就是說，現在投資廣告的詐騙正在進行式，但是你們還是沒有辦法。第二個，現在我們這些平臺業者協調嫁接的進度如何？嫁接電子簽章法的所謂驗證、數位驗證，平臺接受嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：技術面的部分，我請署長說明。"],["何委員欣純：來，技術面。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，其實我們部、次長對這個非常重視，把它列為我們的第一要務。上個禮拜五我們林政務次長已經找了Google、Meta、LINE來開會，因為電子簽章法本就是做數位簽章或電子簽章這樣的作法。我們在打詐專法的第三十條，目前行政院送到立法院的版本裡頭就是要用數位簽章或是所謂快速身分識別機制，就叫FIDO。因為業者上禮拜五有來說，這兩個有時候要改系統，要到母公司去，所以其實我們打詐專法裡頭有或其他安全性相當之技術或方式驗證……"],["何委員欣純：你剛剛講到一個重點喔，來跟你們開會的業者說，如果要改系統要回到母公司……"],["呂署長正華：對，這個要時間。"],["何委員欣純：第一，這個要時間；第二，門檻要件比較高嘛；第三個，不見得做得到，不見得母公司願意改系統嘛！"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，現在是因為沒有這個法，所以如果立法院能夠儘快通過，因為那些母公司都是國際公司，所以它是法遵，他們開會是說沒有這個法，現在就先用行政指導，再加上我們部、次長做的這個打詐查詢網，雙管齊下來做。"],["何委員欣純：你剛剛說行政指導，你們所謂的其他方法是什麼？"],["呂署長正華：次長說要補充。"],["何委員欣純：好，次長請說。"],["林次長宜敬：委員，你好。的確，上個禮拜我們跟Google、LINE還有Facebook在談論這件事情的時候，他們就一直跟我們講說，因為他們是國外的公司，所以他們都要依照他們母國的法律；另外，他們改系統，有的說要18個月，有的說要多久。我就跟他們講說，第一個，雖然你們的母國可能是美國，可能是日本，但是你到臺灣來，你們就得遵守臺灣的法律，就像我們臺灣的各種網路公司到國外去進行營業的時候，我們到美國、到日本也必須遵守當地的法律。另外一件事情，像Facebook，他們雖然說改系統要18個月，但是我也提醒他們，他們之前就已經對於政治類的廣告都會做實名認證，有程度的實名認證……"],["何委員欣純：商業廣告還沒嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：對，我就是講說，其實你也不用改系統，只是把原來政治廣告的那套機制擴大實施範圍，我們希望這些投資方面的廣告也都能使用同樣的機制。"],["何委員欣純：他有答應嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：他們說他們會儘量配合，我們會持續地跟他溝通，除了法律面以外，因為臺灣現在的民意對於這個詐騙，尤其這幾個廣告平臺上面的詐騙已經非常非常不滿了，我們希望利用輿論在商業上給他們更大的壓力。"],["何委員欣純：好，再拜託次長，事後如果還有其他溝通、協調的相關會議資料，再麻煩給本席一下，好不好？謝謝，我希望能夠真的趕快、儘快，好不好？"],["主席：何欣純委員發言完畢。","現在請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.70596875,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.68846875,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.48971875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.24471875,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.345343750000005,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.508468750000006,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.03534375000001,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.20409375,"end":80.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.27159375000001,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.40221875,"end":101.93909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.17971875,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.06971875,"end":103.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.83971875,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.91346875000002,"end":136.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.60096875000002,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.87034375000002,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.03034375000001,"end":139.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.61971875,"end":147.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.63159375,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.82409375,"end":163.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.46471875,"end":171.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.78534375,"end":170.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.13096875000002,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.82659375,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.26784375000003,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.70409375000003,"end":265.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.13284375,"end":306.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.98721875,"end":348.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.61159375,"end":308.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.04409375,"end":351.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.57096875,"end":353.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.98409375,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.22846875000005,"end":358.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.46471875000003,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.55284375,"end":361.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.35846875000004,"end":367.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.31971875000005,"end":366.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.49659375000005,"end":368.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.73284375000003,"end":369.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.74971875,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.75221875,"end":380.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.05596875000003,"end":380.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.24096875000004,"end":390.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.29471875,"end":394.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.30721875,"end":393.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.38284375,"end":398.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.16721875,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.01096875,"end":398.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.10784375000003,"end":400.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.33534375000005,"end":405.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.41909375,"end":413.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.79346875000005,"end":413.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.71721875000003,"end":414.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.85221875,"end":415.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.83096875,"end":418.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.81784375,"end":419.40846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.77971875000003,"end":424.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.99409375000005,"end":426.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.42409375000005,"end":428.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.59284375000004,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.52096875,"end":429.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.02721875000003,"end":429.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.39846875,"end":430.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.83284375000005,"end":430.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.84971875,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.86659375000005,"end":471.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.78034375000004,"end":477.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.91909375000006,"end":473.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.11721875,"end":474.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.60221875,"end":477.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.69471875000005,"end":486.41909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.94784375,"end":477.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.98159375000006,"end":477.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.03221875,"end":478.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.69034375,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.06534375,"end":483.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.28409375,"end":504.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.23096875000005,"end":507.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.25971875000005,"end":507.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.27659375,"end":508.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.06971875000005,"end":509.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.53784375000004,"end":510.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.22534375000004,"end":560.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.94346875,"end":560.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.97284375,"end":573.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.1228437500001,"end":573.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.3884687500001,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.43596875,"end":605.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.8059687500001,"end":604.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.4678437499999,"end":607.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.9697187500001,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.9653437500001,"end":609.2522187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.785,"end":4.299,"text":"好謝謝主席李坤哲召委我們請黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":7.523,"end":29.511,"text":"我另外一位次長不在黃部長好在我進入我的質詢之前我想再請教一件事因為今天有媒體報導這個我們台灣的低軌衛星的一個進度因為在唐鳳部長的時代在花蓮地震的時候我們首次在啟用了低軌衛星那我根據媒體的報導跟唐鳳部長之前跟我講的"},{"start":31.672,"end":34.755,"text":"不僅也是低軌衛星還有中低軌衛星並用用於花蓮的救災當時候的唐鳳部長說訊號優於預期所以我不知道你們預期中的是怎麼樣又是怎樣的判斷優於預期我們合作的是英國的OneWeb而不是馬斯克的星鏈當然這個有一些考量我知道"},{"start":58.152,"end":79.326,"text":"那尤其這個馬斯克的這個很多的事業重心是在中國那甚至可能因為他是比較親中的態度所以對我們來講是有一點疑慮所以我們沒有選擇星鏈而是one way那我就想請教黃部長那未來台灣在這個帝國衛星的這樣子的一個發展裡面部長你的態度如何?你的預期如何?"},{"start":82.268,"end":100.51,"text":"報告委員本來這個韌性就需要各式各樣的通信管道衛星是一個非常重要的管道那當然這個OneWeb是目前跟我們合作比較密切的那當然是OneWeb但是我們還有中那是低軌還有中軌那當然還有同步衛星我們都會一起用那所以這會是一個整合那個細節是不是請牛司長"},{"start":102.792,"end":124.84,"text":"我只是想問部長一下當時的唐峰部長是說第一回衛星我們跟one web合作你剛剛說是多方的合作多元的合作但是one web現在起碼是我們選擇的重點合作的對象那唐峰部長說到今年下半年度這個one web提供的服務應該到年底會有770個點那這個預期這個進度如期如實嗎"},{"start":131.397,"end":151.658,"text":"我目前所收到訊息並沒有說會有問題所以我們還是朝這個目標在努力就是朝這個目標在努力是不是我希望是不是書面報告給我因為這個關係到未來台灣不管是在戰略上或者是在一個廣泛的服務上甚至他在緊急救災的時候那這個衛星的一個"},{"start":153.88,"end":167.851,"text":"確保這個網路訊號能夠正常能夠讓我們所有的訊息都能夠接收得到這個很重要而且接收到的訊息要安全要正常而且要精準對不對然後訊號不能斷嘛"},{"start":171.413,"end":188.459,"text":"所以我希望你給我一個詳細的書面報告好不好而且我希望的這個帝國衛星的一個one web的合作這個服務到年底的770個點不會跳票而且甚至要希望能夠增加這樣子才能夠廣泛而且全方位的一個服務那接著呢"},{"start":189.639,"end":209.581,"text":"部長來訪問外訪我的時候有在講到說現在從上到下從行政院到我們幾個都在講打詐那剛剛林俊憲委員有提到這一個我們現在詐騙案量是持續的增加投資詐騙又是增幅最大數字我就不要再講了但是我要講的問題是什麼來下一頁"},{"start":212.321,"end":229.836,"text":"我們只有阻絕社團的投資詐騙廣告真的只有通報下架還不夠因為刑事局公布了第一季的網路平台違法的投資廣告臉書拘手我們努力的去反映努力的去要求下架也達到3.2萬則"},{"start":231.457,"end":254.465,"text":"但是只有這樣子還不夠因為呢這樣子的投資詐騙廣告層出不窮剛剛陳淑月委員有提到嘛對不對那我就想我們去年3月6月30號通過了一個投顧法70-1條就是呢希望能夠採實名制的一個這個投資理財廣告採實名制但是呢光是這一個投顧法修法之後到現在"},{"start":255.905,"end":281.243,"text":"何欣純無所謂因為為什麼這個投顧法的第71條的實名制只是要加強投放方的自我資訊的揭露而已並沒有強制性的要求平台一定要怎樣怎樣怎樣所以部長你剛剛好像也回其他委員說你要邀請這些平台業者來喝咖啡或者是邀請他們來商量因為還無法可管的情況之下但是"},{"start":281.963,"end":298.675,"text":"部長只有喝咖啡夠嗎你剛剛講威脅兩個字我是覺得用字不太妥但是呢嚴格的督促甚至用其他的一個政策工具是不是可以來拜託是不是可以來督促我們平台業者可以來"},{"start":299.455,"end":326.011,"text":"更進一步的在源頭管理開始來採更積極的落實實名制?部長你覺得勒?那個對沒有錯我剛剛講就是說一個是要用法去管那法沒有通過以前就是用各式各樣管道跟他們溝通那剛剛有講就是說我們第一個就是還是希望說有這個打造通報這個查詢網能夠把這個通報時間縮短讓下架時間快一點"},{"start":326.952,"end":327.632,"text":"你這個查詢的這個平台要建立要多久?"},{"start":351.821,"end":367.354,"text":"三個月之內會上架三個月之內可以更快一點好嗎可以更快一點好嗎因為你們的專業技術還要到三個月以後那至於說那個那我就跟你講還有其他的政策工具還有其他我們已經立法的一個工具啊修法的工具啊"},{"start":368.821,"end":384.898,"text":"在唐峰部長時代我們修的這個電子簽章法嗎因為你們一直在講說我們要推平台上架的投資廣告要驗證驗什麼驗數位簽章嘛對不對那現在我們社群平台如何驗證現在你們驗證我的意思是說電子簽章法三讀通過到現在你們的驗證第一個"},{"start":391.528,"end":417.908,"text":"對,所以說要強迫業者對,強迫業者要能夠...你們強迫業者但是你們用什麼工具去強迫業者啊對,那個打詐法打詐法的第3、4條有這樣的一個他專法3、4條有這樣的一個要求所以專法還沒通過之前你們也沒有辦法強制業者啊就是說現在投資廣告詐騙正在進行是但是你們還是沒有辦法第二個第二個我們現在這些平台"},{"start":419.071,"end":447.635,"text":"業者協調嫁接的進度如何?嫁接我們電子簽章法的這個所謂的驗證數位驗證平台接受嗎?技術面跟委員報告就是說其實我們部長對這個非常重視因為他列為我們第一個要務那上個禮拜五我們林政務次長已經找了Google Meta9來開會電子簽章法因為他本來就是做數位簽章或電子簽章這樣的做法"},{"start":447.975,"end":452.218,"text":"那我們在打詐專法的第30條目前行政院送到立法院的版本裡頭就是要用數位簽章或是所謂快速身份識別機制或是就叫FIDO那因為業者上禮拜五來說這兩個他有時候要改系統要到母公司去所以其實我們打詐專法裡頭有或其他安全性相當的技術或方式來驗證來跟你們開會的這業者說如果要改系統要回到母公司就有時間"},{"start":477.939,"end":500.056,"text":"對一個要時間啊對一個要門口門檻要件比較高嘛是是是而且第三個不見得做得到不見得母公司願意改系統嘛跟委員報告齁現在因為沒這個法啊所以我們立法院喔快點過去啊我們其實那個母公司應該都是國際公司所以他是法尊啊他開會是說你這個法沒有啊現在就先用行政指導再加上我們部長做的這個打詐的查詢網用行政指導行政指導的你們所謂的其他方法是什麼"},{"start":511.262,"end":529.029,"text":"委員你好。的確上個禮拜我們在跟那個Google、Line還有Facebook他們在談論這件事情的時候他們就一直跟我們講說因為他們是國外的公司所以他們都要依照他們母國的法律然後另外他們改系統有的說要18個月有的說多久"},{"start":529.409,"end":545.854,"text":"那我就跟他們講說第一個你在雖然是你母國可能是美國可能是日本但是你到台灣來你就得遵守台灣法律就像我們台灣的各種網路公司到國外去進行營業的時候我們到美國到日本也必須遵守當地的法律"},{"start":546.474,"end":573.429,"text":"那另外一件事情呢是像是Facebook他們雖然說他們改系統要18個月但是我也提醒他們說他們之前就是在已經就是政治類的廣告他們會做那個實名認證有程度的實名認證那我就是想說其實你也不用改系統只是把原來這個政治廣告的那套機制把它擴大實施的範圍我們希望在這些投資方面的廣告也都能使用同樣的機制他有答應嗎?"},{"start":574.769,"end":593.644,"text":"他們說他們會盡量配合那我們會持續的跟他溝通除了法律面以外我們也希望就是說利用因為台灣現在民意對於這個詐騙尤其這幾個廣告平台上面的詐騙已經非常非常不滿了那我們希望也利用輿論的壓力給他們更大的就是在商業上給他們更大的壓力"},{"start":594.685,"end":595.005,"text":"何欣純委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"153006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b367470b2ef6fdd05a442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e519f11711756444d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:19:40 - 10:28:44","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":544,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:28:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:19:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員早。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。針對今天數發部的業務報告，我想大家還是很關心有關於阻詐的部分，這是跟數發部相關的部分。我們看到相關的資料顯示，詐騙真的是層出不窮，充斥在人民的生活當中，我們來看一下相關的統計數字，從105年到112年，有關詐欺的發生件數跟財損的統計可以說是逐年的增加，然後到去（112）年的財損已經高達88億7,895萬多元，這樣一個創新高，在基層真的是民怨很高。本席先請教部長，您平常曾經接過詐騙的訊息嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：算是常啦，但是大概騙不了我，因為……"],["陳委員素月：對，你有辦法識詐，能夠識別。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我有辦法識詐，所以對我完全沒有用。"],["陳委員素月：我們在基層真正接觸到民眾的心聲，就是詐騙的訊息非常多，詐騙上當的案例可能就在每個人的周邊發生，可能很多親戚朋友就有受騙上當的案子發生。我們看到詐騙訊息的來源主要就是簡訊、信件（信函）、電話（包括室內電話及行動電話）以及網路網站，所以它有非常多的來源，然後層出不窮，對於百姓來講，真的上當的機率就會相對地提高。","目前部長新上任嘛，你針對未來的阻詐、打詐看起來也有雄心大志，我們看到你宣布要成立打詐的通報查詢網，希望能夠讓阻詐成果立竿見影。針對這個打詐通報查詢網，目前我也不曉得你們這個功能到底能夠達到什麼樣的程度，就您所說明的，未來針對可疑的簡訊、網址可以透過通報查詢網來確認是否為詐騙訊息。像目前光是網路上的臉書，每天我在看手機的時候，幾乎就是有很多的詐騙訊息，我們來看一下，第一個最常被冒用的就是謝金河，這個是我早上才看到的，之前真的很多很多不同的類型，他本人也曾經去報案處理，可是這樣的訊息還是層出不窮。第二個就是曹興誠，也是被冒用的，這是在限動的部分就可以看得到。還有包括我們的經濟部長，還沒有上任之前就被冒用了，就用他的名義在臉書上詐騙，所以臉書上這樣的訊息真的是非常地多、層出不窮。未來就這個部分，以你說的打詐通報查詢網，這個部分你會怎麼處理？"],["黃部長彥男：針對這種東西，當然我們自己本身會用AI的技術去scan比如剛剛講的臉書，我們希望很快就能發現有這樣所謂的疑似假訊息，我們處理以後，因為這是疑似，還沒有人受騙，就是發現疑似假訊息就馬上處理，我們就會連到臉書，會通知臉書這個東西有問題。當然我們會希望臉書能夠配合，就是我們已經很快速地通知它時，它能夠馬上下架。對於這個東西，將來打詐專法通過之後，他們必須配合，不然我們就要罰它錢，但是在打詐專法還沒有通過之前，我們也希望用這樣機制來縮短通報時間，因為過去都是等到有人受騙後打到165，然後才會去做處理，希望將來能夠用這樣的查詢網，我們看到疑似訊息就趕快通報，然後希望能縮短它下架的時間。","當然我們過去也做了很多事情，剛剛講的這些什麼名人詐騙，尤其這幾個禮拜非常多，我們也很努力做了一些作為，這個是不是可以請呂署長來說明，尤其針對經濟部長的部分？"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員讓我們有說明的機會。部、次長就任之後，有積極告訴我們說要做打詐通報查詢網，所以像剛剛提到郭部長的部分，我們透過行政指導也跟臉書協作，那兩個都拿下來了。我們的林次長因為有IT背景，所以叫我們，現在已經在試行了，就是名人的部分，我們有一個專責的專案小組，如果他自己來檢舉，我們次長都親自回信跟他說我們收到了，並且會告知現在的進度到哪邊。我們這個網可以查詢到，第一個是收件多久，然後Meta處理多久，清清楚楚，外面都可以看到，因為現在新內閣才上任一個禮拜，所以現在還在裡面做相關POC，等到要服務的時候，也要經過壓力測試，所以還要一點時間。部長是跟我們說3個月內把這個網完成，讓民眾遇到這個可以自主來做，不然向臉書或是LINE檢舉都要搞很久，而且還搞不定。以上報告，謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝署長。剛剛有聽了我們部長跟署長的回復，就是說，針對這樣一個網路投資詐騙，剛剛部長說你們scan之後，如果是疑似詐騙的網頁，你們會通報LINE，意思就是直接由你們數發部去通報了，不用再透過警政署或者是報案……"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們希望連線，跟他們直接連，就直接通報了。"],["陳委員素月：確實可以做到這樣子嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會要求他們要接受我們的通報。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們也是希望可以這樣子啦！","另外，在部長提出這樣一個查詢網之前，事實上我們民間就有包括像「美玉姨，訊息查證小幫手」及「台灣事實查核中心」的查核，我不曉得我們未來推的通報查詢網跟目前這兩個民間的查核有沒有什麼不一樣？"],["黃部長彥男：會合作，而且有時候這個查證是需要多方驗證，不是單一技術，所以我們也會利用這些民間的查詢來一起交叉比對、認證。"],["陳委員素月：對，我也是希望如此啦，因為我們也希望資源不要浪費啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對，會整合。"],["陳委員素月：另外一個部分就是說，我看到部長在接受訪問的時候有提到說查詢網會根據內容進行分流，健康醫療方面的詐騙訊息給衛福部，農業相關的給農業部，就是交給主管機關去判斷真偽，可是我覺得這樣一個流程好像就是會delay到這個假訊息的處理效率。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，有些專業不是我們能夠直接從文字上做判斷，比如說健康的消息，甚至是這個藥到底有效沒效，這東西還是要回到相關部會去處理。"],["陳委員素月：據我所知，我剛剛有提到事實查核中心，他們好像就是直接可以去判別真偽，然後給我們回復耶，就是在效率上是非常地快又即時。"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是有關於專業，剛剛講到像藥的部分，醫藥、醫學上面的東西，我覺得還是要謹慎小心，所以我們還是會請部會處理，儘速處理啦！就是說，其實他們也可以很快地處理，處理結果會再跟我們講，我們就會在網路上po出來，但我覺得專業還是要回歸到專業的主管單位去做處理會比較好。"],["陳委員素月：對，專業回到主管單位是沒有錯啦，可是就是說，如何讓這樣的分流能夠縮短時間……"],["黃部長彥男：更快速。"],["陳委員素月：對、更快速，不然的話……"],["黃部長彥男：這是我們的目標。"],["陳委員素月：這樣對於民眾的識詐、阻詐才有比較高的成效。"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解，感謝委員，這是我們努力的目標沒有錯，要快速。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：陳素月委員發言完畢。","現在請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.39784375,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.199093749999999,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.33534375,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.38534375,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.80221875,"end":35.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.90721875,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":43.315343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.55159375,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.87846875,"end":63.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.18971875,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.15909375000001,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.76659375,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.45409375,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.58034375000001,"end":77.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.11596875000001,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.53346875000001,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.31784375000001,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.16034375000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.91034375000001,"end":104.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.99346875,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.63659375,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.90221875,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.28971875,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.98096875000002,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.84346875,"end":166.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.63784375,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.39909375000002,"end":182.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.22596875000002,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.30034375000002,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.75284375,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.78409375,"end":234.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.77909375000002,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.41846875000002,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.92096875000004,"end":292.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.99784375,"end":301.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.32971875000004,"end":305.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.68784375,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.33721875000003,"end":342.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.25596875,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.57596875,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.60596875000005,"end":392.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.44221875000005,"end":394.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.57284375,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.54284375000003,"end":398.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.65659375,"end":398.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.22596875000005,"end":402.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.60096875000005,"end":409.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.92471875,"end":424.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.61096875000004,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.38659375000003,"end":424.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.85909375,"end":427.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.84596875000005,"end":435.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.89971875000003,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.37596875,"end":439.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.65346875,"end":467.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.66159375,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.15909375,"end":450.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.28971875,"end":450.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.50909375000003,"end":450.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.85659375000006,"end":470.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.04596875000004,"end":476.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.23971875,"end":473.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.99471875,"end":475.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.90159375,"end":488.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.93784375,"end":496.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.57784375000006,"end":497.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.86471875,"end":499.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.43409375000005,"end":498.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.02471875000003,"end":499.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.96971875,"end":506.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.97284375000004,"end":522.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.2153437500001,"end":538.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.99971875,"end":524.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.02846875,"end":530.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.12096875,"end":532.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.1753437500001,"end":535.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.63909375,"end":536.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.7865937500001,"end":540.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.6553437499999,"end":541.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.0265937500001,"end":544.36784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.988,"end":4.931,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請黃部長請黃部長部長早我想就是今天針對這個數位發布的業務報告那我想大家還是很關心的這個就是"},{"start":23.376,"end":40.866,"text":"主詐的部分跟數位部相關的部分我們看到相關的資料這個詐騙真的是層出不窮真的是充斥在人民的生活當中我們看到統計的數字從105年到112年有關詐欺的發生的件數跟財損的統計可以說是逐年的增加到"},{"start":51.192,"end":69.451,"text":"去年112年這個財損已經高達這個88億7895萬多那這樣子的一個創新高真的是在基層真的是民怨很高那本席先請教部長就您平常曾經接到這個詐騙的訊息嗎"},{"start":72.087,"end":79.531,"text":"對那因為我們在基層真的接觸到民眾的一個心聲就是真的這個詐騙的訊息非常的多那詐騙上當的案例在每個人可能周邊可能就有很多的親戚朋友都有這個受騙上當的這個"},{"start":99.442,"end":99.863,"text":"陳素月陳素月陳素"},{"start":120.763,"end":141.902,"text":"百姓真的這個上當的這個機率就會相對的提高那我們就目前這個部長也新上任那你也針對就是未來這個主詐打詐也有看起來是雄心大志看好你宣布說要來成立這個打詐的通報查詢網然後希望"},{"start":142.422,"end":163.407,"text":"能夠讓這個主詐成果拼立竿見影那就是說就這個打詐通報查詢網我目前我也不曉得說你們這個功能到底能夠到什麼樣的一個程度那未來就是說就您所說明的如果說針對這個可疑的簡訊網址就是可以透過通報查詢網來確認是否為詐騙訊息"},{"start":166.748,"end":192.8,"text":"那像目前就光是網路上臉書那每天我在看手機的時候幾乎就是有很多的這個詐騙的一個訊息我來看一下第一則就是像最常被冒用的就是我們的謝金河這個是我早上才看到的那之前真的很多很多不同的一個類型那他本人也曾經提出"},{"start":193.713,"end":217.045,"text":"也曾經就是去報案處理可是還是層出不窮然後第二個就是這個曹新成也是被冒用的這是在這個限動這個限動的這個部分就有可以看得到還有包括我們的這個經濟部長還沒有上任之前就被冒用了就用用他的名義來這個有這個臉書來"},{"start":220.066,"end":230.342,"text":"啊就是詐騙了所以這樣子的臉書的一個訊息真的是非常的多好層出不窮那未來我就這個部分你說像這個主詐打詐通報查詢網的話就這個部分你會怎麼處理"},{"start":234.807,"end":250.837,"text":"就是像這種東西我們當然我們自己本身會用AI技術會去scan剛講就是剛講說比如說臉書我們希望很快就發現有這樣的這樣那個所謂的疑似假訊息那我們就會處理以後"},{"start":251.417,"end":251.597,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":271.988,"end":293.029,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":293.029,"end":308.677,"text":"議員．"},{"start":309.457,"end":330.282,"text":"謝謝委員我們有說明的機會那部長就任之後大概也積極告訴我們說要做打爆打炸的通報查詢網所以像剛剛提到的郭部長的部分大概我們透過行政指導也跟臉書協作大概那兩個都拿下來那我們林次郎因為他IT背景所以叫我們要這個現在已經在試行就名人的部分"},{"start":330.802,"end":331.362,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":346.673,"end":346.853,"text":"以上報告,謝謝"},{"start":372.737,"end":397.537,"text":"我剛剛就是有聽到我們部長跟處長剛剛的回覆就是說如果說針對這樣子的一個網路的一個投資詐騙那剛剛部長說你們scan之後如果說是疑似這個詐騙的一個網頁那你們會通報LINE的話那就是由直接由你們訴發部去通報了不用再由透過警政署我們希望連線跟他們直接連就直接通報對是確實可以做到這樣子嗎"},{"start":399.338,"end":409.427,"text":"我們會要求他們要接受我們的那個通報對是那我們也是希望是可以這樣子那另外就是說事實上在部長你提出的這個就是"},{"start":410.014,"end":410.894,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":435.301,"end":449.267,"text":"會合作,而且我們有說這個查證是多方驗證,不是單一技術,所以我們也會利用這些民間的查詢一起交叉比對認證我也是希望如此,因為我們也希望資源不要浪費"},{"start":450.407,"end":476.569,"text":"那另外一個部分就是說我聽到我有看到部長接受訪問的時候你有提到說查詢網會根據內容進行分流健康醫療的方面的詐騙訊息給衛福部農業相關的給農業部去就是交給主管機關去判斷增尾可是我覺得說這樣子的一個流程好像就是會會去delay到這個訊息假訊息的一個處理的一個效率"},{"start":476.949,"end":499.377,"text":"包括委員因為這個有些專業不是我們能夠直接從文字上做判斷比如健康的消息到這個叫事證之下這個藥到底有效沒效這東西還是要回去那個相關部門去處理那據我所知我剛剛有提到這個事實查核中心他們好像就是直接可以去判別真偽然後給我們回覆就是說在這個效率上是非常的快又及時"},{"start":500.197,"end":520.126,"text":"對但是有關專業剛講像這個藥啊這個醫藥醫學上面的東西我覺得還是要謹慎小心這樣所以我們還是會請部會處理盡速處理啦就是說其實他們也可以很快的處理但是處理結果會再跟我們講我們就會在網路上PO出來這樣但是我覺得專業還是回歸到專業的主管單位"},{"start":520.706,"end":521.286,"text":"陳素月委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"153005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3edee2b6eff1e2f80442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9ef0509819ccb48bc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:09:27 - 10:19:14","影片長度":"00:09:47","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":587,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:19:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:09:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早。"],["黃部長彥男：徐委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：首先，部長有很豐富的學經歷背景，也帶領數位部新的團隊面臨現在很大的挑戰，就是所謂打詐、資安跟數位產業的三個面向，部長在專訪裡面也特別提到後續的一些處理方向，今天就針對這幾個面向來跟部長討論。首先針對數位經濟的部分，部長有提到要力拚數位經濟產值2年破1兆的目標，並且要成立AI生態園區，請教部長，目前有屬意的地點嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：目前是這樣子，我跟國發會主委劉主委談了，當然我們還需要更進一步討論，不過大家有個共識，就是希望第一個離高鐵近，大家將來通車方便，因為所謂園區應該講說整個臺灣都是數位島，就是AI島，所以這個園區應該是上、中、下游，下游是擴散到可能包括臺灣全部地區跟海外，所以一定要從上游、中游到下游，上游的人就是比較像新創或是研發團隊，能夠很快接觸到中游、下游，所以交通方面是一個要點，至於實際的地點還有到底是幾個園區都還沒定。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席還是要提醒一下，因為賴總統在這次競選期間一直提到南北區域均衡發展的理念，現在整個南部地區也一直在發展科技產業，尤其是屏東，我們有科技產業園區，也有南科屏東園區，未來是不是有考慮能夠到屏東設置AI生態園區，以達到區域均衡發展的目標？"],["黃部長彥男：我想這個一定會列入考慮，等我再跟劉主委討論之後，我們會啟動一些工作去做查詢……"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席認為這很重要。尤其我們很多屏東孩子，他們有這樣相關的專長，但是他們必須到中部、北部工作，他們很想回到屏東故鄉……"],["黃部長彥男：當然、當然，我們一定會列入考慮。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我們大家一起努力。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["徐委員富癸：第二個再請教部長，國安局日前表示，境外網路侵騷的部分從今年初的選舉後每天一百多萬次，到目前提高到每天有二百五十幾萬次，尤其主要是針對我們的政府機構來侵騷，也造成很大的危害，甚至媒體報導，我們評估友邦的機密文件外洩，最大的風險是在外館，針對這個部分，數發部有沒有什麼營運作為？"],["黃部長彥男：對，現在資安方面，資安法通過，第一個，目前來講資安署會在公部門進行資安稽核、資安巡查及資安演練，但我們希望不只自己本身的資安要做好，當然將來我們還會在關鍵基礎建設，像CI這些單位也會做同樣的工作。至於資安的工作，是不是請資安署署長來做……"],["謝署長翠娟：報告委員，我們會有分三大塊，第一大塊是情資的交流，只要任何地方有類似的攻擊，我們就會立刻掌握，因為很多國家跟很多地方都有跟我們簽MOU，所以立刻掌握之後，我們就會主動防禦，這是第一塊。第二塊，我們有應變處理，所以任何事件我們會集合大家力量，立刻做應變，然後阻斷它的攻擊。第三塊，我們會有後續的監控，就是持續的監控，萬一要是有任何異常的流量，我們也會做主動的預警跟防禦。當然剛剛部長有講了，除了這些之外，我們平時還會做稽核跟演練來讓大家防禦的能量再提高。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這個一定要強化，要不然這也是一個國安的危機。另外，部長，我還是要再提醒一下，我們的資通安全管理法已經上路5年，但是相對應人力部分的缺口一直沒有補齊，你沒人，你要怎麼做這麼多業務、要怎麼做這麼多事情？這是一個很大的危機，尤其我們看到目前編制的人力，從中央政府到地方機關編制資訊處理職系的部分總共只有編列三千六百多人，比人事行政跟主計系統的人數遠遠不成比例，我想這部分是不是有調整的必要？另外，之前有特別提到，如果我們在公務人力沒辦法補齊的時候，很多高手在民間，是不是可以針對約聘僱人力來進行補充？但是我們發現這個薪資結構，在民間可以領8萬、10萬的人為什麼要來領這四、五萬的薪水？所以找不到人，這部分是不是有調整的空間？要不然你們怎麼面對這個徵才的困境？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，當然我們一般……第一個，人才我們會從內部進行很多訓練，我就是有一個目標，希望兩年之內在內部能夠訓練1,000個人為公部門所用，我想以我們工作來講，當然薪水是一個因素，我們會想辦法儘量調高資安職系人員的薪水，就是因為要跟外面的競爭，不過同時我們希望來政府做這些工作的人，對國家是有榮譽感跟使命感，也就是說，做這樣的工作，其實影響的不是一個公司或是一個單位，而是整個國家，希望用這樣子能夠鼓勵更多人為了國家能夠進入，就是很多方面的共同努力，讓一般的資安人員願意留在公部門來替國家做事。"],["徐委員富癸：這個還是要請部長要加油了，讓更多的人才……最後一個，我想針對詐騙部分，剛剛我們有聽到，召委也有特別提醒部長，「新烘爐，新茶鈷」，有時候我們的發言，甚至一些文書資料，真的要特別小心，尤其我記得部長來拜訪的時候有特別提到，針對網路平臺業者的部分應該是蘿蔔跟棍子一定要齊發，針對這部分，我想我們目前掌握到的資料，從去年7月到今年5月通報平臺有移除十一萬多，但是還是層出不窮，尤其這些名人詐騙的案子，後續的部分有沒有什麼更積極的作為？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛我也講過，當然我們要讓一般民眾的識詐能力能夠提升，不要輕易相信網路平臺業者的廣告；跟網路平臺業者，我剛剛講的就是，我們希望能夠跟他們多溝通，希望能夠多配合，在打詐法專法通過之前，用這種方式來跟他們多交通，當然剛剛說打詐通報查詢網，也希望用這樣的機制能夠很快速地通報這些業者，把一些所謂的不實廣告下架，當然就是多管齊下啦！但是我剛剛就講，真的在專法通過之前，我會儘量跟這些業者溝通，就是希望他們能夠配合政府的政策，然後當我們通報他們的時候，他們能夠快速下架。當然廣告太多，所以也不可能完全杜絕，另外就是剛剛講的，識詐的能力也是我們希望能夠提供給民眾的選擇。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想另外還有一個特別要請部長注意，就是針對老人家詐騙案件，因為依據本席的瞭解，很多鄉下的長輩被騙了，但是礙於面子不敢講，辛苦一輩子打拚的錢被騙光了，我想我們現在比較大的困境就在於資訊的傳播速度有很明顯的城鄉差距，我們鄉下地方很多訊息並不全都知道，尤其老人家在滑手機，他沒辦法掌握那麼多的訊息。針對這部分，數位部在各地都有一個數位機會中心，每個鄉鎮現在都有關懷據點，未來是不是有辦法針對老人家詐騙的預防，甚至弭平數位差距的這一環，能夠來強化詐騙的作為跟宣導？"],["黃部長彥男：我要進行的一個方式就是我們會把一些詐騙的資訊拍成比如說短影音或拍成一些教材，然後就可以經過這樣的社群平臺播放，讓老人家可以看得到這些。"],["徐委員富癸：這也應該提供給我們的縣市政府……"],["黃部長彥男：對，縣市政府，就是我們會把一些看到的詐騙訊息用影音或者文字的方式來做宣傳，然後希望教育民眾，讓剛剛講的年長者看了以後知道原來這是詐騙，以後再看到同樣東西就不會受騙，我們希望這種方式來……"],["徐委員富癸：對，再請部長、大家一起來努力，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，徐富癸委員發言完畢。","現在請陳素月委員發言。先作宣告：等一下何欣純委員及蔡其昌委員發言完畢之後，我們會休息，請各黨團助理告知接下來的委員，蔡其昌委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.047218750000001,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.34909375,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.54721875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.812843750000003,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.09971875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.26409375,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.88596875,"end":64.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.81409375,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.16221875000001,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.38159375000001,"end":105.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.41534375,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.97221875000001,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.30034375000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.66471875000002,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.35159375,"end":148.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.38346875000002,"end":163.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.26346875000002,"end":163.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.21221875,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.38096875000002,"end":163.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.08971875,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.92034375,"end":199.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.72971875000002,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.23596875,"end":271.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.04346875000005,"end":274.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.27534375,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.77284375,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.97534375000004,"end":304.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.16471875,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.36284375,"end":337.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.68284375,"end":337.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.69971875000005,"end":343.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.04471875,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.23221875,"end":431.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.89596875,"end":482.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.26346875,"end":491.05971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.29596875000004,"end":491.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.56596875,"end":491.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.59971875,"end":545.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.1059687500001,"end":563.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.8797187499999,"end":565.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.7865937500001,"end":581.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.03721875,"end":587.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.75409375,"end":584.32784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.496,"end":6.778,"text":"謝主席。有請黃部長。請黃部長。部長早。委員長早。"},{"start":20.599,"end":41.398,"text":"首先我想部長有很豐富的一個學經歷的背景那現在也帶領我們數位部的新的團隊面臨我們現在的一個很大的一個新增的一個挑戰就是所謂的一個打砸資安跟數位產業的一個三個面向我想部長在專訪裡面也特別提到的"},{"start":42.519,"end":62.899,"text":"護術的一些的一個處理一個方向那我想今天就針對這幾個面向來跟部長做一個討論首先針對數位經濟的部分部長有提到我們要力拼數位經濟產值兩年或一兆的目標要成立所謂的AI生態園區那請教部長目前有屬意的地點嗎"},{"start":63.922,"end":64.903,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":79.282,"end":103.497,"text":"因為這個所謂的園區應該講說整個台灣都是數位島就AI島所以這個園區應該是上中下游下游是擴散到可能包括台灣全部地區跟海外所以一定要從上游中游下游上游的人就是我們比較像這個新創或是演化團隊能夠很快的接觸到中游下游所以交通方面是一個要點那至於這個實際的地點還有就是說到底是幾個園區這個都還沒定"},{"start":105.818,"end":134.867,"text":"部長本期還是要提醒一下就是因為我們賴總統在這次競選的期間一直提到所謂一個南北區域均衡發展的一個理念那尤其我們現在整個南部地區也在一直所謂發展科技產業尤其是我們屏東我們有科技產業園區也有南科的屏東園區未來是不是有考慮能夠到屏東來設置一下我們的AI生態園區達到一個區域均衡發展的一個目標"},{"start":135.787,"end":162.472,"text":"我想這個一定會列入考慮那這個等到這個這個我們在我再跟那個劉主委討論之後我們會啟動一些這個工作去做一些做一些查詢不然我本身認為這個很重要尤其我們很多這個病棟 他們有這樣相關的一個專長但是他們就是必須到中部北部去工作他們很想回到病棟故鄉一定會列入考慮大家一起努力一下"},{"start":164.178,"end":190.598,"text":"那第二個就是在請教部長國安局日前表示我們境外的一個網路清騷的部分從今年初的選舉後每天100多萬次到目前提高到每天有250幾萬次尤其主要是針對我們的政府機構來清騷那也造成很大的危害甚至在媒體報導我們在評估友邦的一個機密文件的外洩最大的風險是在所謂的一個外管"},{"start":191.66,"end":194.41,"text":"針對這個部分我們說出發部有沒有什麼樣的因應作為?"},{"start":195.323,"end":224.117,"text":"對就是我們現在就是我們治安這個畫面我們叫治安署就是在治安法通過當然第一個就是目前來講治安署會做在我們的公部門做所謂的治安的集合跟治安的這個巡查跟治安的演練當然我們希望說不至於本身的治安要做好那當然就是說將來我們還會在我們的所謂的關注關鍵基礎建設像西安會這個這些單位也會做同樣的工作至於基安的工作我是不是請那個治安署署長在做"},{"start":227.367,"end":251.618,"text":"報告委員我們會有分三大塊第一大塊是情資的交流只要任何地方有類似的攻擊我們就會立刻掌握因為我們有一些很多國家跟很多地方都有跟我們簽MOU所以立刻掌握之後我們就會主動防禦好這第一塊第二塊我們有應變處理所以我們的那個任何的事件我們會集合大家力量立刻做應變然後阻斷他的攻擊然後第三塊我們會有"},{"start":252.819,"end":253.139,"text":"徐富癸．"},{"start":275.765,"end":302.213,"text":"另外部長我想我還是要再提醒一下我們的資通安全管理法已經上路5年但是我們相對應我們的人力的部分的缺口一直沒有補齊你沒有人你要怎麼做這麼多的事也不要怎麼做這麼多的事這是一個很大的危機尤其目前我們看到的我們現在目前的編制的人力從中央政府到地方機關總共編制資訊的處理的一個仔細的部分只有編列3600多人遠遠"},{"start":305.214,"end":307.095,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":333.585,"end":350.18,"text":"這部分是不是有調整的空間?要不然你們怎麼面對這個真財的一個困境?那個報告委員當然就是說這個我們一般但第一個人才我們會從內部很多實時訓練啦我記得有個目標希望兩年之內我們在內部能夠訓練一千個人為我們公部門所用"},{"start":350.64,"end":350.82,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":366.186,"end":366.246,"text":"徐富癸．"},{"start":386.949,"end":414.164,"text":"這個還是要請部長我們要加油這個讓更多的人才能那最後一個我想針對這個詐騙部分剛剛我們有聽到我們這個召委也有特別提醒部長部長這些信行樓信地購這有時候我們的發言甚至一些文書的資料這個真的要特別要小心尤其這個我記得部長來拜訪的時候有特別提到針對這個網路平台業者的部分應該是蘿蔔跟棍子一定要啟發"},{"start":415.265,"end":431.082,"text":"那針對這部分我想我們目前掌握到的資料從去年7月到今年5月我們通報的一個平台有移除11萬多但是還是層出不窮尤其這些名人詐騙的案子後續的部分有沒有什麼更積極的作為"},{"start":432.483,"end":446.79,"text":"對,剛剛就是,剛剛那個我也講過就是說,這個當然一個我們要讓這個一般民眾有這個視乍能力能夠提升啦,這個不要輕易相信網路平台業者的廣告。那當然跟網路平台業者我剛剛講的就是說,我們還希望能夠跟他們多溝通。"},{"start":447.47,"end":475.687,"text":"希望能夠多配合當然在打詐法通過專法通過之前用這種方式來跟我們多交通然後當然剛剛講說打詐查詢跟這個通報網也是用這樣的機制能夠很快速的通報這些業者能夠把一些這個所謂的不實廣告下架當然就是多管齊一下啦但是我剛剛就講說真的這個在我們這個通過之前我會盡量跟這些業者溝通啦就是希望他們能夠配合政府的政策"},{"start":476.067,"end":491.561,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":491.661,"end":517.788,"text":"部長,我想另外還有一個特別要請部長這邊注意的就是針對老人家這個詐騙案件因為依據本市的瞭解齁,我們現在整個這個市段齁,氣用騙的,但是礙於面子,不敢講啦。這辛苦一輩子打拚的這個錢齁,用騙的料理齁。我想我們現在比較大的困境在於說我們的一個資訊的一個傳播的速度有很明顯的城鄉差距。"},{"start":518.328,"end":545.609,"text":"我們整個地方的資訊都不知道尤其老人家他在滑手機他並不曉得那麼掌握那麼多的一個訊息那針對這部分我們數位部在各地都有一個數位的一個機位中心甚至我們每個鄉域現在都有所謂的關懷據點未來是不是有辦法針對這個老人家的一個詐騙的預防甚至彌平這個數位差距的這一環能夠來強化一個詐騙的一個作為跟宣達"},{"start":546.589,"end":562.558,"text":"有一個方式我要進行的就是我們會把一些詐騙的這個一些資訊拍成比如說短影音或拍成一些教材然後就可以經過這樣一個社群平台去做播放讓老人可以看得到這些"},{"start":562.958,"end":563.278,"text":"徐富癸委員"}]}},{"id":"153004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b39943f53c4c3924b8e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9ed3cf3aacb0270ff95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:23:39 - 10:34:53","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":674,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:34:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:23:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時23分）麻煩請教育部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，第一次見面。因為教育部的業務非常龐雜，千頭萬緒，每一項都非常重要，今天只有12分鐘可能也沒辦法問太細，先針對部長您自己提到的幾個優先順序來跟您請教。","第一個，您放在首位的是希望在兩岸平等、尊嚴情況之下，讓大陸學位生來臺，但是非常遺憾，在你們的業務報告裡面完全沒看到這個部分，不知道是不是故意的？是不是最近有變化，受到賴總統的壓力還是怎麼樣？否則為什麼之前受訪提到這是第一件事情，但是現在業務報告卻沒有提到？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想這是我個人的一個疏忽……"],["葉委員元之：所以是疏忽，不是受到壓力而不能講？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有、沒有，我想國家的一個政策……"],["葉委員元之：所以還是要推就對了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：現在具體來說要怎麼開放？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上以目前的辦法，因為我們也知道在Covid之前連續三、四年確實是兩岸就變成學位生……"],["葉委員元之：期程是怎樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：期程上我們希望學位生、碩博士生大概在明年2月簡章出來，5月就可以決定，然後大學部……"],["葉委員元之：所以現在會有名額限制嗎？還是讓各大學自己開名額？"],["鄭部長英耀：名額基本上我們目前法令都有，各校年度招生額度的2%……"],["葉委員元之：就是用原來的額度規定？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，兩邊也都有一個招生合作的管道。"],["葉委員元之：OK，明年就要開始開放招生，期程上是這樣。第二個，大家非常關心我們現在對陸生有三限六不，比如不能有獎學金、不能打工等等，如果在尊嚴、平等的情況之下，因為我們對一般外籍生沒有這樣的規定，有考慮開放三限六不其中的一些限制嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，事實上我們目前已經在獎學金部分鼓勵學校或地方政府去募款並提供獎學金，甚至他也可以當TA、RA，這些我們知道都是可以的。"],["葉委員元之：我知道！我說真的，陸生也不見得要打工，有些來臺陸生的經濟環境都不錯，他也沒有說要打工啦！現在講的是如果一般外籍生可以，但陸生不行，陸生就覺得被針對，我現在講的是這件事情，有沒有考慮針對三限六不做部分開放？有沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：工作的部分當然是涉及到兩岸目前的一些法令……"],["葉委員元之：打工有嗎？獎學金？"],["鄭部長英耀：獎學金是有的。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在三限六不裡面的「不編列獎助學金」要開放？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們鼓勵學校視學生的學習表現提供獎學金，這個我們是支持的。"],["葉委員元之：所以三限六不……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們事實上有一些在調整，包括……"],["葉委員元之：哪一個要調整？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，從今年2月1號開始，陸生也全面納入健保，我想這部分都是展現我們希望……"],["葉委員元之：對，我剛剛已經講了，我們不要一直迴圈，好不好？部長，第一次見面不要這樣子！不要一直迴圈。我講的是他們不見得要打工，也不見得要這些，現在是一個平等問題，陸生來這邊，比如他跟越南籍或其他新南向的學生就感覺不一樣，你有這個限制而我沒有，或者我有這個限制、你沒有這個限制，感覺我在這邊好像被當作異類對待，我現在講的是這件事情啦！有沒有考慮針對剛剛講的問題去調整？有沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個部分我再來進一步瞭解，然後……"],["葉委員元之：你再進一步瞭解，好不好？所以現在沒有想法就對了？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，我確實有一些業務還沒有完全……"],["葉委員元之：還沒有很瞭解。第二個，既然部長到這邊還沒有很瞭解業務，我就針對我們之前關心的還有一些家長、老師的反映意見來跟你請教，我在報告裡面看到你準備著手118課綱的研擬了，108課綱實施到現在已經五、六年的時間，不知道部長滿意這個執行結果嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該是這麼講，那個大方向是沒有問題的。"],["葉委員元之：大方向沒問題，我現在問的是執行結果，108課綱我用幾個字來形容，理想很豐滿，現實很骨感，所以我現在是問你滿意執行結果嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該說有些部分是需要微調。"],["葉委員元之：哪一些部分需要微調？"],["鄭部長英耀：譬如說我們在98課綱的時候，在科技素養這一部分，到108課綱是融入到學科裡面來學習，但我們也看到這幾年AI科技的快速發展……"],["葉委員元之：你講的是要增加AI，我講的是執行狀況。部長，不然我直接講，好不好？我來反映一下家長跟學生的心聲，好嗎？第一個，因為108課綱把必修少四分之一，增加學科，學科沒有考試，學科很多都是用報告、田野調查寫一個學術論文，你現在是用碩士學生的標準去看待這些國中、高中學生，所以這給他們帶來非常大的壓力，很多學生的報告有時候也寫不太出來，所以用ChatGPT，不然就是用其他方式來處理，這沒有辦法達到你原本想要的目標。","第二個，因為我們很多學科的時數變少，所以我們現在的知識變得很破碎，我們的基礎知識也不夠，現在很多大學老師跟我們反映，我看到你有一個目標是希望增加我們的前瞻技術人才，增加前瞻技術人才當然需要很紮實的基礎知識來支撐，可是這些108課綱的學生到了大學之後，大學必須重新教他們比如說普通物理或微積分，為什麼？因為高中把這些學科的時數減少了，所以這是一個非常大的問題啊！","然後對於老師而言，老師的壓力也變大，因為你現在要他們自己開選修課、增加選修課，他就要花更多的時間來備課；然後他還要改很多這些高中生的所謂碩士論文集的報告，可是他時數沒有減少，但他壓力增加，所以老師的壓力也非常大。","我們當然可以認同108課綱所謂的要多元、要增加選修、讓學生探索，可是實際的執行狀況就出現很大的落差，這就提供給部長參考，你現在要做118課綱的時候，這個問題是必須要面臨、要解決的。","再來，很多的課程，比如說歷史課，現在很多學生讀歷史覺得很無聊，因為歷史現在的時數變得很少，所以變得非常破碎，他在讀歷史的時候，他只記年分跟發生了什麼事情，整體來說沒有脈絡，所以這個都會讓他對歷史的興趣減少。因此，關於108課綱，我剛剛講的那幾件事情，我希望部長之後可以瞭解一下。","還有，你也可以看一下之前商業周刊做的一個調查，現在我們讀私立高中、私立國中的學生暴增，已經到了15%要讀私立國中了，這是不是一個往上的趨勢？部長你要瞭解一下為什麼會出現這個情形，除了108課綱的問題之外，還有校園安全，現在在公立國中，有的學生「被記十支大過都覺得無所謂啊」！現在的校規對學生沒有辦法帶來任何的規範啊！學生認為「被記大過就給你記啊」！老師可能也覺得「對啊！我記你十支大過、二十支大過，你也不關痛癢，我也懶得記啦」！所以校園安全本身也出現問題，我不知道部長最近剛上任有沒有瞭解這些情形，有嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想校園的安全確實……"],["葉委員元之：不是，不只校園安全，還有108課綱整體的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上，我從過去工作的一個經驗，當然我有一定程度的理解，譬如說剛才委員所提在數學、物理……"],["葉委員元之：部長之前是在大學，你有沒有發現，我們到了大學，要重新把高中應該教的物理、化學、微積分再教一遍？你有沒有遇到這狀況？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們看到有一些單元，確實我們看到大學利用暑假，就之前有一些補救……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！就是108課綱實施之後，我們大學還要補救，這就是問題所在！"],["鄭部長英耀：不過，我想108課綱基本上它就強調自主學習、多元探索，剛剛委員也提到終身學習……"],["葉委員元之：理想很豐滿，現實很骨感，所以我現在問的是執行的狀況……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會……"],["葉委員元之：再來就是雙語教育，現在我們政府要推2030雙語教育，2024年雙語的師資要到6,000名，請問現在有幾名了？2024年要有6,000位雙語教師，現在有幾位了？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們目前有四千多位，將近5,000位。"],["葉委員元之：有辦法到6,000位嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：一直在努力。"],["葉委員元之：請繼續努力，我跟部長報告，很多國小的家長跟我反映，國小的英文不知道在上什麼，比方說在某一個國小五年級找一個老師用全英文方式上自然課，上的時候所有的學生都聽不懂，完全對自然失去興趣；一個月後，老師先用英文教一遍，之後用中文再教一遍，大家在用中文的時候就聽了；再一個月，放棄英文教學，直接用中文，現在雙語教育在國小的實施也遇到了非常多的問題，比如說，因為他們也沒有其他的教材，他們就背課文，在國小的時候，課文背得很厲害，所以有95分，可是以這樣的英文能力，連英文過去式都不知道，到國中才發現，原來有英文過去式喔！所以國小的雙語教育推動也面臨到一樣的狀況，我們當然都希望大家的英文可以很好啊！可是在推動過程當中，不瞭解現實，就出現了很大的落差。","我剛剛講的幾件事情，都是很多家長跟老師的反映，因為我們知道部長才剛上任，而且你是高教的，也不是國民教育的，所以針對上述所提，希望部長可以瞭解一下，針對這些政策未來看看是不是要修正，因為新的部長上任總是會有一些新的想法嘛！好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，部長請回座。本席現在先宣布在吳沛憶委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請登記第7號的郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.33596875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.26409375,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.119093750000005,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.18596875,"end":61.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.789093750000006,"end":62.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.805968750000005,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.98284375,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.56909375000001,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.55534375,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.92096875,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.30721875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.69909375,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.06909375000001,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.27971875,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.70159375,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":110.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.25846875,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.98346875,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.18659375000001,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.61909375000002,"end":172.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.64096875,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.20596875,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.94346875000002,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.93909375,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.05721875,"end":183.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.09096875,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.90034375000002,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.63284375,"end":201.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.84346875,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.83909375000002,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.75034375,"end":203.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.66909375,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.68534375000002,"end":213.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.76534375,"end":214.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.86221875,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.02659375000002,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.37159375000002,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.03346875000003,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.71284375,"end":284.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.13846875,"end":289.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.65659375,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.08659375,"end":294.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.88284375,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.63159375000004,"end":333.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.58221875000004,"end":338.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.91034375000004,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.71159375,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.19846875,"end":403.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.27159375,"end":444.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.12596875,"end":450.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.39096875,"end":464.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.12284375,"end":469.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.21909375,"end":476.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.12096875000003,"end":485.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.67221875,"end":489.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.67596875000004,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.91971875,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.11221875,"end":512.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.10784375000003,"end":507.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.64721875000004,"end":514.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.9253437500001,"end":526.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.86909375,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.1765937499999,"end":532.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.5890937500001,"end":543.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.0278437500001,"end":533.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.4609687500001,"end":548.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.28721875,"end":554.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.4297187500001,"end":558.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.67784375,"end":559.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.4709687500001,"end":559.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.85909375,"end":559.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.9097187500001,"end":559.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.96034375,"end":560.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.5678437500001,"end":562.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.79096875,"end":567.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.09409375,"end":571.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.71284375,"end":580.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.68221875,"end":592.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.6259687500001,"end":594.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.03096875,"end":602.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.00846875,"end":623.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.49471875,"end":627.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.47284375,"end":645.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.7022187499999,"end":648.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.45284375,"end":672.5672187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.51,"end":11.131,"text":"麻煩請教育部長謝謝好請鄭部長"},{"start":19.366,"end":45.197,"text":"委員好部長好第一次見面因為教育部的業務非常龐雜千頭萬緒每一項都非常重要所以今天只有12分鐘可能也沒辦法問太細那就針對部長您自己提到的幾個優先順序要做來跟您請教第一個放在你的首位的就是您希望在兩岸平等尊嚴情況之下讓大陸學會生來台但是非常遺憾在你們的業務報告裡面完全沒有看到這個部分"},{"start":45.737,"end":54.639,"text":"不知道是故意的是不是最近有變化還是有受到賴總統壓力還是怎麼樣否則為什麼之前受訪提到這個是第一件事情但是現在業務報告卻沒有提到謝謝委員的一個關心我想這是我個人的一個疏忽所以是疏忽不是說受到壓力所以不能講沒有沒有沒有我想國家還是要推就對了那現在具體來說要怎麼開訪"},{"start":73.615,"end":94.702,"text":"我們現在事實上以目前的辦法因為我們也知道在COVID之前連續有三四年確實是兩岸就變成這個學衛生就騎乘上是怎樣騎乘上騎乘我們希望說學衛生做博士班大概在明年二月的這一個檢張出來五月就可以決定然後"},{"start":95.362,"end":123.687,"text":"大學決定所以你現在是會有名額限制嗎還是讓各大學自己開名額我們現在目前法令都有的各校的一個啊招生年度的一個招生額度的2%他就是用原來的原來的額度的規定而且兩兩邊也都有一個招生的一個啊這個合作的一個OKOK好好那就是說明年就要開始開放招生嗎其實實際上是這樣然後第二個大家非常關心的是說因為我們現在對陸生有一個三線六部嗎"},{"start":124.267,"end":152.399,"text":"比如說不能夠有獎權金不能打工等等那如果在尊嚴平等情況之下因為我們對於一般的外籍紳士沒有這樣的規定有考慮要開放這三線六部其中的部分的一些限制嗎謝謝委員的關心事實上我們目前已經都在這個部分獎學金鼓勵學校或者地方政府去募款然後提供獎學金甚至這一個他也可以當TARA沒有我知道我現在是講因為"},{"start":153.579,"end":154.3,"text":"打工打工"},{"start":181.974,"end":197.337,"text":"獎學金獎學金是有的所以獎學金現在三線六部裡面有一個沒獎學金這個要開放是我們是鼓勵學校是這個學生的一個學習他的一個表現提供獎學金這個我們是支持的所以三線六部"},{"start":198.683,"end":207.39,"text":"我們事實上是有一些在調整包括跟委員報告從今年2月1號開始陸森也全面這個納入這個健保我想這個部分都是展現我們希望我跟你講了就是說我們不要一直回圈好不好部長第一次見面不要這樣子不要一直回圈我講是說他們不見得要打工也不見得要現在是一個平等問題嘛陸森來這邊"},{"start":223.863,"end":240.535,"text":"那他跟比如說越南籍的或其他的新南向的學生就感覺不一樣嘛你有這個限制我沒有這個或我有這個限制你沒這個限制感覺好像我在這邊就是被當作異類對待嘛我現在講的是這件事情啦那有沒有考慮到說針對剛剛講的問題有有要去調整有沒有我想這一個部分我再來進一步了解然後你再進一步了解好不好所以現在沒有沒有想法就對了"},{"start":251.185,"end":269.838,"text":"對不起我確實有一些業務還沒有還沒有很了解第二個那既然部長到這邊來就是沒有很了解業務但我就針對我們之前有關心的還有一些家長老師的反應的意見來跟你請教了因為我在你的報告裡面有提到有看到你準備要著手118課綱的研擬了那108課綱已經實施到現在已經五六年的時間不知道部長您滿意這個執行結果嗎"},{"start":281.519,"end":290.082,"text":"應該是這麼講那個大方向是沒有問題的大方向沒問題啦我現在問的是執行結果因為108課綱我幾個字來形容啦理想很豐滿現實很骨感啦所以我現在問你的執行你滿意嗎?應該說我們部門是需要微調哪一部分需要微調?就是說我們在98課綱的時候在科技素養這一部分到108往事用融入造型的方向來形容"},{"start":314.673,"end":338.605,"text":"你講的是要增加AI我講的是執行狀況啦執行狀況這樣好不好不然部長我來直接講好不好我來反映一下家長跟學生心聲好嗎第一個因為108課剛是把必修少四分之一增加學科嘛學科沒有考試學科很多都是用報告田野調查寫一個學術論文那你現在是用碩士學生的標準去看待這些國中高中學生啊"},{"start":339.963,"end":363.206,"text":"所以這個給他們帶來非常大的壓力那很多學生報告有時候也寫不太出來所以用CHAPGBT不然就是用其他方式來處理這沒有辦法達到你原本想要的目標第二個就是說因為我們的很多學科的時數變少所以我們現在知識變得很破碎我們的基礎知識也不夠現在很多大學的老師跟我們反映"},{"start":363.666,"end":381.382,"text":"比如說他可能是我看到你有一個目標是希望能夠增加我們前瞻技術人才嘛增加前瞻技術人才當然需要很扎實的基礎的知識來做支撐可是這些學生108課高學生到大學之後大學必須要重新教比如說普通物理或微積分為什麼"},{"start":382.603,"end":387.608,"text":"因為高中你把人家學科的時數減少了嘛所以這個都是一個非常大的問題啊然後對於老師而言老師的壓力也變大因為你現在要他們自己要開選修課那這家選修課選修課他要花更多的時間來備課然後他要改很多這個所謂碩士論文級的這些高中生的報告"},{"start":404.346,"end":418.855,"text":"可是他時數沒有減少但他壓力增加所以老師的壓力也非常大所以我們當然是可以認同說108課綱他所謂的我們要多元我們要增加選修讓學生探索可是實際的執行狀況就出現很大的落差"},{"start":421.617,"end":443.394,"text":"這就是說給部長參考吧你現在要做118課綱的時候這個問題是必須要面臨要解決的然後再來就是大家比如說舉很多課程比如歷史課歷史現在很多學生讀歷史覺得很無聊啊因為歷史現在因為他的那個時數變得很少所以變得非常破碎他在讀歷史的時候他只記年份跟他發生什麼事情但整體來說沒有脈絡"},{"start":445.205,"end":464.324,"text":"所以這個都會讓他他產生對歷史的興趣的減少好不好這個108課剛我剛講那幾件問題幾件事情我希望部長你之後可以瞭解一下那你也可以看之前那個上一週開始做一個調查現在我們要讀私立高中私立國中的學生暴增現在已經到15%要讀私立國中的這個是不是一個"},{"start":470.29,"end":494.06,"text":"往上的趨勢那不然你要了解一下為什麼會出現這個情形嗎除了108課綱的問題之外校園安全啊你現在在公立國中公立國中有的學生被記十字大過都無所謂啊你現在校規對學生沒有辦法帶來任何的規範啊學生認為說被記大過好給你記啊那老師覺得說對啊我記你十字大過二十字大過你也不關痛癢我記我也懶得記啦"},{"start":495.987,"end":502.789,"text":"所以校園安全本身也出現問題啊不然我不知道說你最近剛上任有沒有瞭解這些情形有嗎"},{"start":506.696,"end":526.594,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想校園的一個安全確實不是不只校園安全 印巴克綱整個整理的問題印巴克綱事實上我從過去的一個工作的一個經驗當然我有一定程度的理解譬如說剛才委員所提到的這個在數學物理對你有沒有發現說我們到了大學我們要重新把高中應該教的物理化學為積分再繳一遍有沒有"},{"start":532.739,"end":553.066,"text":"我們看到有一些有一些單元確實我們看到這個大學利用這個暑假的之前有一些補救的這些大學的對嘛就是108剛實施之後我們大學還要補救嗎這就是問題所在的嗎不過我想108課綱基本上他就強調自主協議對人探索剛才委員提到現在理想很豐滿"},{"start":555.327,"end":570.001,"text":"好不好現實很骨感所以我現在問的是執行的狀況我想我們會問好不好再來就是雙語教育啦現在那個我們現在政府要推2030雙語教育嘛2024年說雙語的師資到6000名現在幾名了2024說要到6000位雙語教師現在幾位了"},{"start":584.707,"end":602.017,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前是有這個四千四千多位將近五千有辦法到六千位嗎一直在努力繼續努力啦我跟部長報告很多國小的家長跟我反映啊國小的英文不知道在上什麼"},{"start":603.58,"end":626.895,"text":"說在某一個國小五年級找一個英語找一個老師用全英文方式上自然課上的時候所有的學生都聽不懂完全對自然失去興趣一個月後老師先用英文教一遍之後用中文再教一遍大家中文的時候就聽了再一個月放棄英文教學直接用中文現在雙語教育在國小的實施也遇到了非常多的問題"},{"start":628.83,"end":644.838,"text":"然後像譬如說他因為他們也沒有其他的教材他們就背課文背課文在國小的時候課文背得很厲害所以有95分可是以這樣的英文能力他連英文過去式都不知道到國中才發現原來有英文過去式"},{"start":645.822,"end":671.488,"text":"所以國小的雙語教育推動也面臨到一樣的狀況我們當然都希望大家英文可以好啊可是在推動過程當中不了解現實就出現了很大的落差那我剛剛講的幾件事情都是很多家長跟老師的反應啊因為我們知道部長你才剛上來而且你是高教的嘛你也不是國民教育這些希望說部長可以了解一下針對未來這些政策看看是要修正因為新的部長上任總是有新的想法嘛好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b36b05d5593b3cf306fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9ec5eb4435e8f3c8585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:23:13 - 10:32:15","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":542,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:32:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:23:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時23分）有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長好。我們剛剛聽到很多委員都有提到這次的修法，其實早在蔡部長在任的時候，當時就已經有承諾要針對兒少相關的性侵害犯罪等的追訴時效的問題進行研議，可是看起來，法務部好像動作很慢，到現在都還沒有研議出來一個成果，是嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們去年有召開刑修小組討論過，他們認為現有的制度應該足以保障被害人。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。我要講的就是，從剛剛林思銘委員談到，最近大法官所做出來的侮辱公務員罪違憲的解釋，到近期一連串在民間團體還有立法院內，呼籲希望能夠強化刑法相關量刑標準的罪行，可以知道司法，不管是司法院或法務部，似乎都背離國民的法情感，好像不瞭解現在社會的期待、社會的需求是什麼。這個部分我希望新內閣法務部部長還有次長，您應該也是新任的，可以多瞭解我們現在民間民意在想什麼，我們的期待、我們的訴求是什麼，而不要每一次大家都很積極的在討論某一些法律的議題，可是你們好像就是作壁上觀，或是冷冷的看待大家現在討論很熱烈的法案或是法律議題。","我必須說我現在感受到，雖然說本席才進到立法院大概三個多月，可是我已經感受到其實我們現在這一屆的立法委員們是很用功的，我們非常積極地提出很多具有前瞻性的法案，可是我看到的是，司法院還有法務部非常消極，你們的專案報告裡面，基本上大概都不太支持立法委員所提的提案。雖然說寫得很保守，可是仔細看起來，你們的結論就是不支持。但是你們不支持的理由是什麼？為什麼其他國家可以做，可是我們國家不能做？我覺得你們還要更努力一些，把你們認為不適當的地方，還有其他國家為什麼可以做，我們不可以做，相關的問題都要在報告裡面講清楚，才可以讓我們更清楚地瞭解，到底司法實務界你們的看法是什麼？","以這一次談的有關於我們幾位委員們所提出來的，對於未成年兒少的性侵犯罪要排除追訴時效的議題來說，我覺得排除追訴時效有一個很重要的目的，其實也是要保障人民的訴訟權利，是不是？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，是，剛才我……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為憲法第十六條就講得很清楚，人民有請願、訴願及訴訟的權利，我們的憲法其實並沒有定訴訟權利的時效規定，在現行的刑法裡面有追訴權時效的限制規定，其實相當程度也是損害了人民的訴訟權利，所以，排除追訴時效這件事，是不是只跟法秩序的安定性有關，我認為其實法務部這邊可以再進行研析，可以從人民訴訟權保障的角度來思考這個問題。尤其很多性侵害案件，如果是在被害人年幼的時候所發生的，那等到他長大了有能力，或是他的心智足夠成熟的時候，他再來提起相關的訴訟，這不無可能。至於說證據上是不是可以保存完整、良好，未來被害人是不是能夠具體地提出足夠有力的證據去證明這件事情，我認為還是要回到從保護被害人的訴訟權的角度來思考這個問題。所以，針對這一次大家所提的修法草案，我認為法務部應該要更積極，最好能夠在非常短的時間之內就把你們的看法、跟其他國家的比較以及其他國家在排除了追訴權的時效之後，是不是有增加比較多的案子，而且也成立了相關的案件，這些數據我希望都能夠請法務部提供，不知道法務部這邊可以提供其他國家的相關作法嗎？至少韓國現在已經修法排除了相關的追訴權時效。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們可以提供立法例，但是數據的話，我們一時之間可能沒有辦法拿到。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩請你們提供相關的立法例、立法理由，而且如果能夠在其他國家的網站上面，或是我相信應該有很多的法學者對這方面有研究，請你們一併把相關的資料、數據都提供出來，可以作為我們之後在研商相關法案的時候一個非常重要的參考。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：簡單來說，我個人認為法務部還有司法院在未來的這個會期，未來這四年裡面應該要更認真、更努力，不只是就委員們所提出來的法案進行一些評析，你們自己要更努力、更加把勁的把社會上所期待、所殷殷期盼的法案，儘速的研擬出來。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們目前推到大院的就是打詐四法，這個就是我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：除了打詐四法之外呢？我們有非常多的法案……"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實社會上現在有非常多重要的議題，希望法務部這邊可以趕快的研擬，譬如說針對未成年人犯罪的問題，這也是民間大家很關心的議題，可是我看你們也沒有什麼作為。這個部分你們有在研擬了嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，你剛剛講的青少年犯罪的問題是歸司法院業管。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。還有針對像是受刑人保外就醫的問題，對不對？回到我剛剛所提到的，就是法務部還有司法院，你們的一些措施、作為其實距離現在人民的法感情很遠的，光是以陳水扁可以保外就醫9年，延長38次，這對於一般的受刑人來講，他們有可能享受到這樣的待遇嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這個都要經過評估的。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，你們的評估在哪裡？我都覺得你們是不是在做虛偽的評估報告？"],["徐次長錫祥：有，這個是……"],["翁委員曉玲：而且醫療小組成員的名單也不公開，這個很明顯嘛，就一般的常識都會認為……"],["徐次長錫祥：這個臺中監獄都……"],["翁委員曉玲：這樣的醫療評估報告就明顯有問題。明明一個人活蹦亂跳的，竟然還說他的身體仍然還有重大疾病嗎？我希望從現在開始，你們可以將陳水扁每一次延長保外就醫的報告都要送立法院，這可以做得到嗎？你們同意的。"],["徐次長錫祥：這個可能要問……"],["翁委員曉玲：否則我們沒有辦法知道，你們核准的理由是什麼，之前是38次，從第39次開始，本席要求你們要將每一次核准陳水扁可以延長保外就醫的相關處分函送立法院，好，以上。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.38096875,"end":3.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.77221875,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.851593750000003,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.356593750000002,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.777843750000002,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.65471875,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":59.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.58284375,"end":59.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.59971875,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.71784375,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.291593750000004,"end":71.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.67784375000001,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.63971875,"end":76.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.04846875,"end":78.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.46159375,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.63096875000001,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.04284375,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.57284375,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.07846875,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.32221875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.03034375000001,"end":200.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.88971875000001,"end":217.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.98409375000003,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.59909375,"end":227.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.86034375000003,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.42971875,"end":230.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.54346875000002,"end":230.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.57721875000001,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.94846875000002,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.11534375000002,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.95784375000002,"end":318.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.44096875,"end":344.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.46221875000003,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.92096875000004,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.15284375000005,"end":360.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.71721875000003,"end":393.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.29596875000004,"end":383.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.39721875000004,"end":383.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.53909375,"end":396.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.49221875,"end":409.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.57034375,"end":415.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.03784375000004,"end":418.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.22721875,"end":418.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.59846875000005,"end":434.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.47159375,"end":420.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.23284375000003,"end":437.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.19034375,"end":443.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.91096875000005,"end":450.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.62721875000005,"end":474.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.99034375,"end":478.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.36971875,"end":494.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.86721875,"end":482.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.03971875,"end":485.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.87846875,"end":491.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.50221875000005,"end":500.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.87659375000004,"end":511.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.2378437500001,"end":513.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.9084687500001,"end":514.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.4609687500001,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.67596875,"end":523.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.5903437500001,"end":539.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.00284375,"end":531.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.3390937500001,"end":540.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.6597187500001,"end":540.3515937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.848,"end":2.409,"text":"有請次長請次長"},{"start":13.891,"end":43.352,"text":"委員好是次長好是這樣的我們剛剛看聽到很多的委員都有提到在這次的修法其實早在蔡部長這個在任的時候當時就已經有承諾說要針對相關這個兒少的這個性侵害犯罪等等的追訴時效的問題要進行研議可是看起來法務部好像動作很慢"},{"start":43.892,"end":69.778,"text":"到現在都還沒有你演繹出來一個成果是嗎?包委員我們去年有召開行修小組討論過他們認為說這個現有的制度應該足以保障被害人。我要講的就是其實從剛剛林士明委員談到最近大法官所做出來的這個五入公務員罪違憲的這個解釋那到"},{"start":72.711,"end":101.828,"text":"嗯這個近期一連串在民間團體還有立法院這裡呼籲希望能夠要強化刑法相關良心的標準的這個罪行那麼可以知道其實司法不管是司法院或法務部似乎都背離國民的法情感好像不了解現在社會的期待社會的需求是什麼"},{"start":102.968,"end":118.782,"text":"那這個部分的話是我希望新內閣法務部這個部長還有次長您應該也是新任的就是可以多瞭解我們現在民間民意在想什麼我們的期待我們的訴求是什麼"},{"start":120.043,"end":128.706,"text":"而不要每一次就是大家都很積極的在討論某一些法律的議題可是呢你們好像就是作弊上官或是冷冷的看待就是大家現在這個討論很熱烈的這些法案這些法律議題我必須說我現在感受到雖然說本席才進到立法院大概三個多月可是我已經感受到我們其實現在這一屆的立法委員們是很用功的"},{"start":150.629,"end":159.829,"text":"我們非常積極的提出很多具有前瞻性的法案可是我看到的是司法院還有法務部是非常消極"},{"start":161.383,"end":188.336,"text":"那麼你們的專案報告裡面基本上大概都不太支持立法委員所提的提案雖然說寫得很保守可是呢這個仔細看起來你們的結論就是不支持但是你們不支持的理由是什麼那為什麼其他國家可以做可是我們國家不能做我覺得你們還要更努力一些把這個你們認為不適當的地方還有其他國家為什麼可做我們不可以做要把這個相關的報告都要"},{"start":193.195,"end":214.914,"text":"在報告裡面都要講清楚才可以讓我們更清楚的了解到底在司法實務界你們的看法是什麼以這一次談的有關於這個我們幾位委員們他們所提出來的兒少性侵就是對於未成年的這性侵犯罪要排除追溯時效的這個議題來說其實"},{"start":219.442,"end":236.51,"text":"這個排除追溯時效其實有一個很重要的目的其實我覺得也是要保障人民的訴訟權利是不是?包括委員是因為憲法第16條裡面就講得很清楚人民有請願訴願及訴訟的權利在我們憲法其實是並沒有這個"},{"start":243.183,"end":243.263,"text":"﹚翁曉玲"},{"start":251.988,"end":252.348,"text":"則不予審查 ．則不予審查 ．"},{"start":280.339,"end":282.282,"text":"此事發生的那等到他長大了有能力或他的心智足夠成熟的時候他再來提起相關的這個這個訴訟這不可能至於說這個證據上面是不是可以保存的完整完完良好"},{"start":297.642,"end":299.003,"text":"則不予審查 ．則不予審查 ．"},{"start":319.462,"end":344.531,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":345.523,"end":360.172,"text":"可以提供這相關的其他國家的做法嗎至少韓國他們現在已經已經修法了排除了我們可以提供立法例但是數據的話我們可能沒有辦法一時之間可能沒有辦法拿到"},{"start":360.779,"end":364.522,"text":"拜託提供相關的立法律、立法理由而且如果說能夠在其他國家的網站上面或是相信應該有很多的法學者對這方面有研究就一併要把相關的資料、數據都提供這個可以作為我們之後在研商相關法案的時候一個非常重要的參考那麼簡單來說我"},{"start":384.659,"end":408.971,"text":"我個人認為法務部還有司法院在未來的這個會期未來這四年裡面其實應該要更認真更努力這個不是只是就委員們所提出來的法案進行一些評刑你們自己就要更努力更加把勁的然後把社會上所期待所因應期盼的法案盡速的研擬研究出來"},{"start":409.611,"end":434.739,"text":"發言委員我們目前推到大院的就是打詐釋法這個就是我們除了打詐釋法之外呢我們有非常多的法案對就是社會上現在已經有非常多重要的議題然後希望說法務部這邊可以趕快的研擬譬如說針對這個未成年人犯罪的問題這也是大家民間很關心的議題可是我看你們也沒有什麼作為啊你們這個部分有在研擬了嗎"},{"start":438.98,"end":463.693,"text":"報告委員那個你剛講青少年犯罪問題是司法院的夜館是好那還有針對像是這個受刑人保外就醫的問題對不對這個我回到我剛剛所提到的就是看到法務部還有司法院你們一些措施你們一些作為其實距離現在人民的法感情很遠的"},{"start":465.415,"end":473.914,"text":"光是以沉水匾可以保外就醫九年,延長三十八次。這個對於一般的受刑人來講他們有可能有享受到這樣的待遇嗎?"},{"start":476.458,"end":500.4,"text":"我們這個都要經過評估的對你們的評估在哪裡我都覺得你們是不是有在做虛偽的評估報告而且對於這個醫療小組的成員的名單也不公開那真的很明顯嘛就一般的常識都會認為這樣的醫療的評估報告就明顯有問題對明明一個人活蹦亂跳的竟然還說他什麼他的身體有人家是還有重大疾病嗎"},{"start":502.443,"end":522.681,"text":"我希望就是從現在開始你們可以每一次將這個陳水扁他每一次的延長報告都要送立法院這可以做得到嗎?你們同意的?這個可能要問...請...否則我們沒有辦法知道你們所做的核准的理由是什麼?"},{"start":524.659,"end":538.916,"text":"現在是之前是38次嘛從第39次開始本席要求你們將每一次核准陳水扁可以延長保外就醫的相關的這個處分函要送立法院以上"}]}},{"id":"153002","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153002","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c87dfc74b8d890edfcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9ee4facc25fc06bfb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:06:37 - 10:22:59","影片長度":"00:16:22","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":982,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:22:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:06:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時6分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請徐次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我想今天大家關心的兒少受性侵追訴權時效的議題，我們可以回顧一下，憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件，112年度憲民字第384號，案由是為告訴妨害性自主案件，認臺灣士林地方法院111年度聲判字第37號刑事裁定，及所適用之刑法第八十條及刑法施行法第八條之一規定，有違憲疑義，聲請法規範及裁判憲法審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國94年刑法修正前的妨害性自主追訴權時效的問題，這導致非常多的被害者長大之後就沒有辦法來追訴，造成人生非常大的遺憾，所以心中那種永遠的痛、陰霾一直無法逃離。這種情形有好幾件，比如說高雄體操選手的案件，還有臺中的房思琪等案件，都是成年後因為時效超過而沒有辦法追訴，因為這都是在他們未成年時所遭受的性侵或者猥褻。所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後，他往往不容易在短時間內揭露性侵害的內容或者去報案，所以導致無法去追訴；又因為未成年遭受性侵者，他的智識有限，也無法清楚地表達，而且也可能受限於環境或權勢，缺乏支持而求助無門，他不得不沉默以對。","我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現，倖存者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷，這個時間非常地久，所以等到成年之後，他想要對犯罪者提起告訴，因為追訴期已經過了，而使他沒有辦法提出告訴，也讓犯罪者逃過刑罰的制裁，讓正義無法伸張。因為未成年者身心發展不成熟，如果受到性侵，會嚴重影響他未來身心的發展，所以這種對兒少的性侵事件，真的是天理難容、非常重大的惡行。所以這一次我們兩位委員所提的修法，一個當然是針對兒少性侵的事件排除追訴權時效的適用；另外一個版本是在他未成年以前就停止時效的追訴。我想問次長，到底法務部的意見如何？因為我看你的報告裡面，你講了國外的好幾個立法例，也有排除追訴權時效，也有追訴權時效停止進行，或者延長追訴權時效的期間，或者追訴權時效延後起算，到底法務部的意見，你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的？因為你的報告寫得好像這個也不行、那個也不行，但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的問題，羅智強委員剛才也講得非常清楚，所以法務部你要有一個明確的立場，你可不可以提出建議？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，依照我們去年召集專家的刑修小組會議結論，是認為現有的規定、制度，在追訴權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題，因為他的追訴權期間是20到30年，一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻，當然不可能說到40歲、50歲這麼遠，但是至少是成年，成年以後，這個被害人理論上在社會上應該有一定的經濟能力、社會地位，他應該可以思索是不是要提出告訴，而且這個又涉及到證據蒐集的問題，20年的案子如果再不提起的話……"],["林委員思銘：次長，法秩序安定的部分，有關追訴權時效制度的設計我們是瞭解，但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件，因為我們看到國外也有排除時效適用的立法例，是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守？講說這個應該夠啦，二十年、三十年依現行的法律制度夠！但是如果夠，為什麼問題還是層出不窮？兒少被性侵害的案件在長大之後沒有辦法來追訴，就讓這些犯罪者有一個僥倖的心態，即便他做這些犯罪，未來這些人成年之後、過了一段時間如果不敢揭露結果，他們就僥倖、就逃過了法律的追訴。","所以我建議法要隨時則轉，我們不要再用這種保守的心態，要進步的立法，否則這種事件層出不窮，剛才羅智強委員講多少黑數沒有被揭發出來，所以我還是建議法務部，到時候我們在做法案審查的時候明確表達你的態度，因為現在講說現行法已經夠了、沒有修正的必要，但實際上真的是這樣嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們沒有反對的意思，我只是就法制面來看，檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠，我們非常尊重大會委員的……"],["林委員思銘：次長，所以我覺得有點保守啦，我還是希望您提出懇切的建議，到底適用排除追訴權時效比較OK、比較不會有問題，還是我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的進行、之前都停止，我想這些都是你可以給我們一個很中肯的建議，因為你後面又提到，這個版本、哪一個版本要等他心智成熟等等，這是一個不確定的法律概念，你沒有提出這樣一個見解，到底要如何修正這個法條能夠達到社會大眾的期待、能夠保障我們這些未成年的、受性侵的被害者？我想法務部應該有一個更積極的立法建議，我是這樣建議啦，我希望到時在逐條審查的時候能夠看到你們有更積極、明確的態度來對修法做出一個很明確的建議。","我再請問次長第二個問題，在這次立法院職權行使法的修正當中，我們大家一直在討論，是不是可以讓這些受調查、聽證的，不管是公務人員、團體、法人或者利害關係的人民，可以請律師到場？我想問次長，依我們現在的訴訟制度，可以請律師到場的情況有哪些？"],["徐次長錫祥：被告、犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以，經過檢察官同意的話，因為基於偵查的指揮，應該也不會排除……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我告訴你……"],["徐次長錫祥：但是要經過檢察官同意。"],["林委員思銘：是！所以刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人、被告在接受偵訊或者在訊問的時候，他可以請被辯護人到場，這是他的權利。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["林委員思銘：民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不一定要請律師，他要不要請律師由當事人自己考量嘛。"],["徐次長錫祥：如果一個法律制定以後，有涉及到人民的自由權或者是財產權的侵害，他可能會因為違反規定……比較沒有爭議是，尊重當事人的意見會比較好。"],["林委員思銘：對，所以次長，其實我要跟你講的就是，我們這次立法院職權行使法的修訂內容為，這些受聽證人到場來接受聽證的時候，經過主席同意，於必要時他得請律師到場。但是我們看到民進黨委員講說，這條你們違憲啦！你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意，必要時才可以請律師？他的看法似乎認為我們就是把他當作刑事被告！","其實次長，我剛才已經跟您就教過，我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師？就是在刑事訴訟的程序裡面，你被當作犯罪嫌疑人、被當作被告，所以你有3項權利，第一個，可以保持緘默、不違背自己的意思而為陳述；第二個，可以申請調查有利於自己的證據；第三個，可以選任辯護人！所以我們法律明定可以選任辯護人、可以請律師是在這種情況之下。至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟，你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你出庭，所以只有限於這幾種情況！如果是證人，證人可以請律師嗎？可以嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：證人有時候，譬如在檢察官同意之下，因為偵查指揮是檢察官的權力。"],["林委員思銘：所以證人依照現行法，因為證人是到庭來聽他講的，不可能由律師幫他代答，所以一定是證人依他自己的親自見聞來法庭接受訊問，證人不可能請律師，這不是他的權利嘛！你同不同意？"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道、我知道！"],["林委員思銘：就是證人，對嘛？是不是？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以一定要如你剛才講的，如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他，可能要經過檢察官或者法官的同意。"],["徐次長錫祥：因為有些證人現在的身分是證人，但是身分轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的。"],["林委員思銘：可能發生……"],["徐次長錫祥：證人到庭以前可能會擔心。"],["林委員思銘：我知道，所以證人身分轉換的時候，檢察官就要告訴他那3項權利嘛，要告訴他！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，我們要宣讀權利。"],["林委員思銘：甚至依照現行實務的作法，有些檢察官會等1個小時讓他去請律師，就暫時停止，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，沒有錯，這個法律有規定。"],["林委員思銘：對嘛，因為這是法律的強制規定，讓他可以請律師。但是我現在一直強調，我們在國會依照職權行使法行使調查聽證權的時候，不是一定要讓他請律師到場，你是來接受聽證、來證言的嘛，不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人、當被告，這是一個不一樣的體制嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，因為剛才我特別有提到，如果又涉及到自由權或者是財產權問題的話，經過多方的討論、學者專家意見，還有法制程序上如果能夠討論的話，將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執，我只是這樣子的意見。"],["林委員思銘：我只跟你討論證人，證人是沒有請律師的權利啦，這點你同意吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，在設計上沒有這樣的設計。"],["林委員思銘：是啊，就沒有嘛！","最後，請主席再給我1分鐘，針對這一次大法官做出解釋，認為公然侮辱罪是合憲，但是訂出了非常嚴格的標準，次長先請回，這個可能請司法院廳長。關於訂出的標準非常嚴格，未來公然侮辱罪必須符合3項審查標準，必須當場侮辱、必須基於妨害公務的目的、必須影響執行公務。","所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候，如果只是民眾單純的口頭抱怨、或者抽象的辱罵、或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身，沒有針對特定的個人而且沒有影響公務的進行，就不會被認定是公然侮辱公務。比如說廣泛地指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗，這會不會構成公然侮辱罪、公然侮辱公務員罪？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分還是要依照大法官解釋，在第43段裡面有特別提到「足以影響公務員執行公務」，它有講這個情形下才會構成犯罪，例如說單純的揶揄、口頭嘲諷的話，可能未必會構成對公務員公然侮辱罪。"],["林委員思銘：我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇，但是這樣放寬言論自由如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴、如何來維護我們的正義？所以大法官這樣的解釋，其實在我們現在實務上來看，這種解釋根本沒有考量我們執法人員的尊嚴！現在對執法人員來講，大家看到這個解釋都傻眼。"],["李廳長釱任：就執法人員來講，如果個人的名譽受到損害的時候，他還是可以依第三百零九條公然侮辱罪對於個人法益侵害的部分提起告訴。那在大法官解釋裡面也有思考到，對於公務員不是所謂國家法益侵害的時候，而是對於個人法益侵害的這部分是不是要改成公訴罪，它在第50段裡面曾經有提出一些建議跟說明。"],["林委員思銘：次長，這份判決宣告侮辱職務罪是違憲的，這很明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛。所以我想，如果大法官這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏，任由相關的公務機關被人家謾罵，在網路上散布不實訊息來批判的話，這樣一點尊嚴都沒有啊！未來這個國家的公務系統如何來維護其尊嚴。所以我覺得大法官，比如說我可不可以講大法官是執政黨養的狗，我可不可以講，我有沒有構成侮辱職務罪？"],["李廳長釱任：這個我……"],["林委員思銘：所以我說這樣的解釋，問題點太多了啦！大法官真的是不食人間煙火，完全往執政黨靠攏，非常的不恰當，我做這種結論。謝謝。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝。"],["主席：何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接下來請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.57346875,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.14721875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.758468750000002,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.79221875,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.09596875,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.129718750000002,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.24784375,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.48721875,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.49534375,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.65346875,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.06596875,"end":58.688468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.19471875000001,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.41096875000001,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.79846875000001,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.52784375,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.14346875000001,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.09346875000001,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.80096875000001,"end":144.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.18971875,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.68221875,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.83221875,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.67159375,"end":170.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.92409375,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.14284375,"end":192.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.50284375,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.31721875000002,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.50659375,"end":224.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.95784375000002,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.07721875000001,"end":245.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.01784375000003,"end":254.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.96159375000002,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.23534375,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.47909375,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.64784375,"end":264.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.78284375000004,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.79971875,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.18346875000003,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.56596875,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.20471875000004,"end":314.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.81034375,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.02971875000003,"end":305.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.29971875,"end":305.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.38721875000005,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.44159375000004,"end":315.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.59909375,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.14659375,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.17971875,"end":353.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.25409375000004,"end":356.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.78534375000004,"end":362.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.52284375000005,"end":362.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.32846875,"end":368.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.18846875,"end":377.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.08159375,"end":380.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.37221875,"end":383.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.86971875,"end":403.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.60909375,"end":415.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.54846875000004,"end":433.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.30909375000005,"end":458.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.60909375000006,"end":477.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.75159375000004,"end":464.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.23659375000005,"end":467.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.79596875000004,"end":496.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.52284375000005,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.34471875,"end":504.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.50471875000005,"end":513.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.95909375,"end":517.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.1909687500001,"end":517.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.67159375,"end":517.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.7222187500001,"end":517.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.8403437500001,"end":517.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.90784375,"end":517.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.9753437500001,"end":518.0090937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.0090937499999,"end":528.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.19471875,"end":518.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.2522187500001,"end":528.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.43784375,"end":529.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.6528437500001,"end":529.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.9228437500001,"end":530.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.98596875,"end":535.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.0147187499999,"end":538.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.56284375,"end":548.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.9365937499999,"end":553.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.0459687499999,"end":553.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.37909375,"end":576.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.98721875,"end":578.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.11346875,"end":583.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.2265937500001,"end":585.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.98159375,"end":608.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.04971875,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.27971875,"end":626.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.07221875,"end":628.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.7765937500001,"end":629.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.97471875,"end":637.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.9734687499999,"end":654.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.5403437500001,"end":667.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.41346875,"end":658.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.0378437500001,"end":658.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.13346875,"end":677.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.40221875,"end":675.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.3472187500001,"end":676.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.7309687500001,"end":677.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.81534375,"end":677.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.8997187500001,"end":722.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.2240937500001,"end":682.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.5559687500001,"end":691.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.8047187500001,"end":693.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.80409375,"end":732.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.40596875,"end":743.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.1428437500001,"end":743.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.8134687500001,"end":743.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.89784375,"end":751.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.9653437500001,"end":744.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.32284375,"end":752.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.7065937500001,"end":754.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.74034375,"end":753.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.4953437500001,"end":763.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.97909375,"end":773.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.17159375,"end":774.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.2978437500001,"end":828.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":829.79159375,"end":833.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.1284687500001,"end":855.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.56971875,"end":845.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.3447187500001,"end":867.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.26846875,"end":856.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.7322187500001,"end":858.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":868.8403437500001,"end":875.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.17784375,"end":870.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":875.4384687500001,"end":879.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":880.9565937500001,"end":884.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.0915937500001,"end":881.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":884.95596875,"end":884.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.97284375,"end":912.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.1684687500001,"end":902.4890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":904.21034375,"end":904.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":904.34534375,"end":904.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":904.37909375,"end":904.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":912.81659375,"end":923.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.61221875,"end":927.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":928.67909375,"end":931.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":931.8178437500001,"end":952.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":952.87784375,"end":960.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":961.3659687500001,"end":965.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":965.7197187500001,"end":980.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":981.14346875,"end":981.97034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.355,"end":10.823,"text":"謝謝主席主席我們請次長麻煩次長"},{"start":15.782,"end":45.285,"text":"委員好,謝謝次長。我想今天大家關心的這個兒少追溯權受性侵追溯權失效的議題我想我們回顧一下這個憲法法庭在3月25號公布了一份受理的案件112年度憲民制第384號他的案由是未告出妨害性自主案件認為台灣士林地方法院111年度審判制第37號刑事裁定"},{"start":46.145,"end":67.741,"text":"他所適用的刑法八十條及刑法司刑法第八條之一的規定有違憲疑議,申請裁判就憲法法庭來做一個審查。該案主要是關於發生在民國九十四年刑法修正前的妨害限制組追溯權時效的問題。"},{"start":69.022,"end":69.623,"text":"則不予審查"},{"start":87.623,"end":111.782,"text":"所以這種情形有好幾件比如說高雄體操選手的案件還有台中的房思琦等案件都是因為成年因為時效超過而沒有辦法追溯因為這個都是在他們未成年的時候所遭受的性侵或者猥褻"},{"start":113.183,"end":127.713,"text":"所以我們看到兒童及青少年在經歷性侵害之後他往往不容易在短時間內來揭露他性侵害的這個內容或者去報案所以導致無法去追溯"},{"start":128.573,"end":150.768,"text":"那麼又因為他這個未成年遭受性侵者他的自視有限也無法清楚的表達而且也可能受限於環境或權勢缺乏支持而求助無門他不得不沉默以對我們看到澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現"},{"start":153.085,"end":174.327,"text":"獲判者平均花23.9年才第一次揭露童年性侵的經歷所以這個時間非常的久所以等到成年之後他想要對他的這個犯罪者提起告訴那因為追訴前已經過了而使他這個沒有辦法"},{"start":176.068,"end":192.533,"text":"來提出告訴也讓犯罪者逃過刑法的制裁讓正義無法伸張所以我們為成年者身心發展因為不成熟如果受到性侵會嚴重影響他未來身心的一個發展"},{"start":193.604,"end":219.105,"text":"所以這種對兒少的性侵的事件真的是我們天理難容非常重大的一個惡行所以我們這一次我們兩位委員的修法一個當然是針對說這個是不是就排除這種兒少性侵的事件排除我們追溯前時效的適用那另外一個版本是說就是我們在他未成年以前就停止時效的一個追溯"},{"start":220.356,"end":242.774,"text":"那我想問這個次長到底法務部的意見因為我看你的報告裡面當然你講了好多的國外的好幾個一個立法例就是也有排除追溯權時效也有追溯權時效停止進行或者延長追溯權時效的期間或者追溯權時效延後起算"},{"start":244.127,"end":262.889,"text":"到底法務部的意見你認為到底採哪一種立法例是最好的因為你的報告都寫了好像這個也不行那個也不行但是我們剛才點出有那麼多的一個問題我看羅志強委員剛才也講得非常清楚所以到底法務部你要有一個明確的立場"},{"start":265.06,"end":290.892,"text":"提出建議一下一招我們去年召集專家的這個行修小組會議的結論是認為現有的規定制度應該是在追溯權方面的規定是沒有什麼問題那因為他的追溯權期間是二十到三十一定會跨過被害人成年的這個門檻"},{"start":292.453,"end":310.191,"text":"當然不可能說到40歲50歲這麼遠但是至少是成年成年以後這個被害人他理論上他應該在社會上有一定的這個經濟能力社會地位他應該可以思索去是不是提出告訴而且這個又涉及到證據收集的問題"},{"start":311.232,"end":332.926,"text":"二十年的案子如果再不提起的話法制序安定的部分就是說追溯權時效這個設計我們是了解了但是對於這種兒少性侵的案件因為我們看到國外立法立案他也有排除這個時效的這個適用的這樣的一個立法立案是不是我們國家的法制面還要如您剛才講的那麼保守"},{"start":334.847,"end":361.881,"text":"說這個應該夠啦二十年三十年一線型的法律的制度夠但是如果夠為什麼還是問題層出不窮不窮正兒少被性侵害的案件長大之後沒有辦法來追溯讓這些犯罪者就有一個僥倖的一個心態即便我做這些犯罪那未來這些人成年之後過了一段時間如果他不敢揭露"},{"start":364.486,"end":380.088,"text":"於是他們就假信他們就追過了就逃過了法律的追溯所以我是建議法要隨時者轉我們不要在這種保守的心態要進步的立法否則這種事件層出不窮"},{"start":381.408,"end":384.65,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":405.279,"end":433.269,"text":"報告委員我們沒有反對的意思我們只是就法制面來看檢討我們現有制度是不是足夠那我們非常的尊重我們大會的委員的意見所以市長我覺得有點保守啦所以說我還是希望您提出懇切的一個建議到底是用這個排除追溯權時效比較OK比較不會有問題還是說我們在他成年以後再來進行時效的一個進行之前都停止"},{"start":435.39,"end":457.749,"text":"這是一個不確定的法律概念你沒有提出這樣的一個見解那到底要如何來讓這個法條修正能夠達到社會大眾的一個期待你能夠保障我們這些未成年的受性侵的這些被害者"},{"start":458.65,"end":458.99,"text":"第二個問題我在請問次長"},{"start":477.907,"end":504.388,"text":"我想對於我們這次在立法院職權行使法的修正當中我們大家一直在討論就是說這個我們是不是可以讓這些受調查聽證的這些不管是公務人員或者是我們的團體法人或者利害關係的人民可以請律師到場那我想問次長醫生在我們的訴訟制度可以請律師到場的情況是有哪些"},{"start":505.926,"end":535.009,"text":"我想那個被告犯罪嫌疑人這些都可以那經過檢察官同意的話因為基於偵查的指揮應該也不會派出但是要經過檢察官同意所以我們在刑事訴訟的犯罪嫌疑人或者被告他是在接受偵訊或者在詢問的時候他可以請辯護人到場嘛這是他的權利嘛那我們的民事訴訟或者行政訴訟就不是一定要請律師嘛"},{"start":536.09,"end":546.879,"text":"他有沒有請律師當時能自己考量嗎?因為如果說一個法律制定以後他有涉及到人民的自由權或者是他的財產權的侵害他可能會因為違反規定"},{"start":550.114,"end":576.236,"text":"較無爭議是尊重當事人的意見會比較好。所以市長其實我要跟你講的就是說因為我們這一次的立法委員職權行使法我們修訂就是說這些受聽證人他到場來接受聽證的時候經過主席同意與必要時他得請律師到場但是我們看到民進黨委員講說這一條你們這違憲啊你怎麼可以說一定要經過主席同意"},{"start":577.198,"end":583.01,"text":"必要時才可以請律師。他的看法似乎認為說我們就是把他當作刑事被告啊。"},{"start":584.284,"end":607.891,"text":"其實職長我剛已經跟你就教過其實我們在什麼情況之下可以請律師那就是說你在刑事訴訟的程序裡面你是被當作犯罪嫌疑人被當作被告所以你有三項權利嘛第一個就是說你可以保持緘默不違背自己的意識而為陳述第二個你可以申請調查有利於自己的證據第三個你可以選任辯護人嘛"},{"start":609.131,"end":629.048,"text":"所以我們法律明定說在可以選任辯護人可以請律師的情況是在這種情況之下至於民事訴訟跟行政訴訟你可以委任律師到庭來帶領你去出庭嘛所以只有限於這幾種情況嘛如果是證人證人可以請律師嗎可以嗎"},{"start":630.029,"end":646.222,"text":"證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候證人有時候"},{"start":655.758,"end":676.843,"text":"這不是他的權利嘛你懂不同意我知道我知道對嘛對是不是所以一定要該如你剛才講的如果證人一定要請律師到場來協助他也可能要經過檢察官或者法官的一個同意因為有些證人他他現在身份是證人但是身份轉換在我們訴訟法上是可能發生的可能發生你當時在證人到庭以前他可能會擔心"},{"start":677.483,"end":677.743,"text":"對沒錯沒錯這規定法"},{"start":693.645,"end":719.255,"text":"對嘛 這個因為是法律的一個強制規定讓他可以請律師嘛但是我現在一直強調說說我們在國會行使醫藥職權刑法行使調查聽證權的時候不是一定要讓他這個請律師到場嘛你是來聽證接受聽證的嘛來來證言的嘛不是叫你來當不是把你當犯罪嫌疑人當被告這是不一樣的一個訴訟的一個的一個這個體制嘛"},{"start":723.616,"end":750.603,"text":"因為剛才我特別有提到說如果又涉及到自由權的問題或者是財產權的問題的話經過多方的討論然後學者專家意見還有法治的程序上如果能夠討論的話將來在執行上可能會比較沒有爭執啦我只是這樣子的意見所以我想這個這部分就證人我只跟你討論證人啦證人是沒有請律師的權利啦這點你同意吧"},{"start":751.923,"end":752.284,"text":"議員林思銘"},{"start":776.769,"end":790.387,"text":"指出的標準非常嚴格,未來公然侮辱罪必須符合三項的審查標準。必須當場侮辱,必須基於妨害公務的目的,必須影響執行公務。"},{"start":791.428,"end":807.988,"text":"所以未來我們的警察在執行公務的時候如果說只是單純民眾單純的口頭抱怨或者抽象的辱罵或僅針對公務員執行的職務本身沒有針對特定的個人"},{"start":808.949,"end":833.306,"text":"而且沒有影響公務的進行就不會被認定說是公然侮辱我們的公務所以警察開紅單如果比如說廣泛的指稱警察開紅單是政府養的狗這會不會構成公然侮辱罪公然侮辱我們的公務人員罪"},{"start":834.558,"end":861.348,"text":"這部分是要依照大法官的解釋在第43段裡面有特別提到足以影響公務員執行公務他有講這個情形要實施才會構成犯罪那例如說單純的揶揄啦或者嘲諷的話那可能未必會構成公難無路那個對公務員公難無路的罪行是我想這樣放寬言論自由當然是大法官的一個選擇但是當然這樣放寬言論自由"},{"start":862.208,"end":879.029,"text":"如何來保障我們的執法尊嚴如何來維護我們的正義所以大法官這樣的解釋其實在我們現在很實務上來看這種解釋根本沒有去考量我們執法人員他的一個尊嚴"},{"start":880.99,"end":895.555,"text":"所以現在對執法人員來講大家看到這個解釋都傻眼了就執法人員來講他如果他個人的名義受到或是受到損害的時候他還是有三百零九條的公然侮辱罪的對個人身份法個人法益的侵害的部分他可以提起告訴的"},{"start":896.515,"end":922.61,"text":"在大法官的解釋裡面也有思考到說對於公務員的不是國家法律的部分侵害的時候對個人法律的侵害這部分是不是要改成公訴罪他在第五十段裡面曾經有提出這個部分的一些建議跟說明市長其實這份判決又認為說宣告五物植物罪是違憲的"},{"start":924.896,"end":951.467,"text":"這明顯就是為楊蕙如在解套嘛所以我想如果大法官是這樣子完全向執政黨來靠攏的話而不對於我們的這個相關的不管我們的公務機關這些被人家謾罵在網路上放布不實訊息來這樣批判的話一點尊嚴都沒有啊這國家未來這個國家的公務系統啊如何來"},{"start":952.888,"end":953.028,"text":"﹚林思銘"}]}},{"id":"153001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c48d334b117772635186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9ef755a496e837e66f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:17:22 - 10:29:41","影片長度":"00:12:19","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":739,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:29:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:17:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.06471875,"end":30.456593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.878468750000003,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.73846875,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.73784375,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.758468750000006,"end":43.821593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.07471875,"end":47.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.56784375,"end":52.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.001593750000005,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.992843750000006,"end":57.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.97971875,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.98596875,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.03659375000001,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.10409375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.57659375,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.69346875000001,"end":82.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.33034375000001,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.63409375,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.24159375,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.40159375,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.51346875,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.51221875000002,"end":136.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.20784375,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.81096875,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.51534375,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.32846875,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.90596875,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.09659375,"end":201.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.45909375000002,"end":216.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.57659375,"end":207.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.68909375,"end":224.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.87346875,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.43034375000002,"end":260.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.38284375,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.30409375,"end":284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.57284375,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.40346875,"end":294.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.68971875,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.47596875000005,"end":339.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.91034375000004,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.88596875,"end":361.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.45971875000004,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.85909375,"end":426.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.96846875,"end":451.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.92659375000005,"end":489.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.01096875,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.11471875,"end":507.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.83346875,"end":514.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.1953437500001,"end":529.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.4809687500001,"end":522.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.42909375,"end":531.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.24721875,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.6984687500001,"end":540.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.9084687500001,"end":573.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.91596875,"end":575.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.59096875,"end":598.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.86909375,"end":577.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.7365937500001,"end":588.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.7434687500001,"end":627.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.71346875,"end":627.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.73034375,"end":627.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.74721875,"end":633.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.77159375,"end":638.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.0534687500001,"end":648.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.15346875,"end":680.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.8484687499999,"end":730.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.4272187500001,"end":731.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.8997187500001,"end":731.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.91659375,"end":736.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.0347187500001,"end":732.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.40596875,"end":732.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.4978437500001,"end":738.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.95346875,"end":738.97034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.796,"end":17.622,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那先請我們長照司司長好不好。好,請祝司長。委員好。"},{"start":27.368,"end":52.261,"text":"市長,因為今天也是剛好討論我們救福法46條巴斯亮表條款。那有剛好我們長照師市長也在這邊。我請問一下,那我們因為為了強化我們長照的業務,我們有針對長期照顧服務人員繼續教育課程統計,也是你們俗稱的長照小卡。"},{"start":53.061,"end":72.014,"text":"那這個長照小卡在106年我們有公布長照服務人員訓練認證繼續教育及登錄辦法那它這個長照小卡你們有規定6年要更新一次然後6年內要完成120個積分對不對?"},{"start":72.014,"end":78.539,"text":"是那長照小卡的更新請問它包括我們長期照顧機構內的外籍照護人員嗎?"},{"start":81.108,"end":103.954,"text":"當然包括包括嘛那我這邊有一個資料來顯示根據我們衛福部長照師機構外籍照護人員他們長照小卡的更新率因為有很多機構來跟我們反映就是到今年的6月30號我們看一下到今年的6月30號我們"},{"start":106.255,"end":127.262,"text":"更新認證率這個人數到今年年六月底大概只有40個人大概是11%多那可是未完成的有88%有307人然後再到今年年底如果今年年底到期的有25個人更新認證有2433人"},{"start":131.624,"end":146.923,"text":"沒有更新認證那如果以我們這樣子來看喔那整個認證更新率不到3%那我想了解一下那如果這些他沒有更新的話到時候會面臨什麼樣的問題"},{"start":148.724,"end":164.073,"text":"跟委員報告,其實本來在機構裡面的外籍看護這邊的長照人依法他其實是要每年20小時那這個也是延續之前老人福利法的一個規範一路下來的"},{"start":165.034,"end":175.259,"text":"那依據常夫法這邊一樣延續就是每年20小時可是因為過去的109年的COVID關係所以你知道說機構裡面的這些外籍這個照顧的人力每年20小時對他們來講因為COVID的關係所以他沒有辦法完成所以其實我們是在110年有在跟這些機構的業者這邊討論"},{"start":189.566,"end":216.139,"text":"那特別放寬放寬到今年年年底之前等於是去年年底之前一百一十二年年底之前我們可以讓他六年比照其他的長照人員六年一百二那現在最主要就是我們現在面臨到這個問題我們看一下你到今年年底你看目前都不到3%那如果到真的年底有這麼多人兩千多人"},{"start":216.759,"end":224.147,"text":"他領不到沒有換這個長照小卡那是不是到時候他就不能從事這個長照專業的照顧服務確實會有這個困境所以我們其實在不斷的跟這些機構的團體要鼓勵他們趕快幫他們辦課那也有一些數位的課程是可以上的"},{"start":237.862,"end":265.922,"text":"那現階段我們其實在委員之前有協商的會議的時候其實我們也是已經請這個就像我們過往希望他們來辦課的他們目前一直沒有辦所以我們現在會處理會處理讓他們積極的幫這些外籍的在機構的工作人員趕快能夠把這個課本上出來我們現在擔心的就是你看現在六月底馬上就到了其實這個到今年年底也很快"},{"start":266.442,"end":285.384,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":285.686,"end":301.042,"text":"其他工作外像幫佣、掃廁所等等的事情對不對?對,因為這個是依據就是舊約服務法46條進來就是要做對,所以我們現在就擔心那如果照這樣子的情況他如果碰到二職的僱主"},{"start":301.522,"end":326.879,"text":"那一定想辦法去終止他的契約。 那一定想辦法去終止他的契約。那我們擔心就會有逃逸移工的問題發生。 那我們擔心就會有逃逸移工的問題發生。因為現在這逃逸移工問題真的非常嚴重。 因為現在這逃逸移工問題真的非常嚴重。那當然如果有良心的僱主繼續用他。 那當然如果有良心的僱主繼續用他。但是他並沒有經過這個認證。 但是他並沒有經過這個認證。他就不能做真的專業長照的服務。 他就不能做真的專業長照的服務。那就變成閒置的人力。 那就變成閒置的人力。他只能去摺摺棉被整理一些床周邊的事物。 他只能去摺�"},{"start":330.201,"end":344.747,"text":"我想說這一部分可能會面臨到很嚴重的問題。不知道我們針對我們這一部分衛福部有沒有什麼解決的方法。就是跟委員說明從上次的那個協調會之後其實我們已經請這些那個聯合會和機構的這些聯合會這邊來出面來做辦訓的動作。那目前規劃出來大概會"},{"start":355.771,"end":361.732,"text":"有些優先培訓400名這個機構裡面的這個分數積分不夠的這個對象那針對這個其實也有很多的機構有跟我們反映他們面臨這個問題其實他們也很恐慌然後他們也提出有反映澄清幾個狀況就是說我們這個線下的課程數量不足那針對這部分我們去了解其實衛福部對於這線下課程的實際的數量也並沒有完全在掌握而且"},{"start":383.977,"end":408.679,"text":"這些外籍的造福員他要外出上課這個成本過高還有這個課程我們發現居然沒有多國的語言配套要讓這個外籍造福員去上這個課而且好像考試來用中文我覺得這對他們有很大的問題會造成他們要拿這個認證真的是很多的困難那所以我想說針對這一部分我們"},{"start":409.78,"end":425.799,"text":"這個多國語言這個設計沒有去做到我們看得到勞動部都有做到為什麼衛福部做不到那難怪他這個語言障礙讓他要考試而且考試還用中文去考他要怎麼去得通過這個認證是不是造成很多很多的問題"},{"start":427.231,"end":449.29,"text":"各位委員說明勞動部的那個多國語言的課程事實上我們也整個真的勞動部同意已經把那個課程都放在我們的長照2.0的數位學習平台上所以基本上是都有的多國語言都有那至於我們目前其實跟這些這個服務提供單位這邊的合作就是請他們辦直播視訊那直播視訊是等同實體課程"},{"start":452.293,"end":466.469,"text":"我這邊就是幾點建議啦,也希望趕快我們衛福部這邊看趕快怎麼去解決我們現在面臨我是說長照小卡是不是有機會再給它更新延期還有我們這個課程應該優化線上課程"},{"start":469.052,"end":479.716,"text":"讓他多國語言還有也希望他們有建議是不是這個線下的課程能夠建構導師團的制度納入通譯專責師之人力然後在這個機構巡迴上課"},{"start":483.737,"end":507.083,"text":"也希望我們衛福部針對這幾個部分來研議看看因為我們擔心馬上到這個問題我們現在真的是最擔心逃逸外勞到時候他沒有通過這個認證又不能在機構好好的工作我們擔心這逃逸外勞的數量會直線上升所以針對這部分希望我們衛福部針對這部分來好好的研究改善一下"},{"start":507.858,"end":531.226,"text":"好,那個優化課程我們會來努力,那研程因為已經研過一年了,大概沒有辦法再研了。好,沒關係你們討論,因為我們不希望說又面臨這個逃逸外勞這個嚴重逃逸外勞的問題。好,那謝謝我們司長。那針對我們今天討論巴士量表的部分,我請問一下我們之前,之前我們"},{"start":533.271,"end":553.822,"text":"有關於我們在之前針對八四亮表的部分喔。八月29號那時候在選舉的時候那個侯友宜總統參選人就有提出廢除八十歲以上八四亮表這個政見。然後到第二天的隔天的時候我們衛福部也表達不反對。然後我們也問過那"},{"start":555.163,"end":571.178,"text":"委員會說,如果勞動部放寬到80歲以上的民眾皆可申請,委員會也不反對。那是不是可以請問一下我們何部長針對這一部分,因為這之前勞動部的回應,不然我們何部長針對巴士量表放寬到80歲以上"},{"start":573.956,"end":595.894,"text":"我剛才已經有報告過。我非常尊重委員們的提案。那也很肯定。可是就是說我們已經當時就發展三項多元認定方式。所以其實已經有效的取代了巴士量表。它已經高達72%的80歲以上老人都用三項多元認定了。"},{"start":597.836,"end":597.996,"text":"議員：涂權吉"},{"start":627.996,"end":638.487,"text":"我以為那是因為那個現在放的那三大多元認定三項多元認定是失能者啊你如果是只放80歲他就會擴及健康跟雅健康還有72萬人喔到時候你會有52萬的勞工、醫工在進來"},{"start":645.274,"end":674.058,"text":"那個當然一定會衝擊到本國的就業。對,我是希望喔,因為我們剛剛在提案說明的時候也有講啊,也希望我們勞動部跟衛福部喔,因為現在,現在這個社會很多年輕人喔,都在創業,都在就業,然後也有很多家裡的長輩喔,其實都沒有人照顧,而且現在醫療很進步,都八九十歲,當然他可能身體還可以,但是說實在話我們一直認為說這外籍看護是不是能夠在健康的時候就去照顧他,"},{"start":674.579,"end":680.031,"text":"不要等到跌倒失能之後才符合這個巴士量表的標準變成說"},{"start":681.972,"end":710.612,"text":"受傷自殘以後他發生沒有辦法治理以後才達到巴士量表標準才符合申請是不是在這一部分年輕人在外面創業就業家裡長輩沒有人照顧應該在健康的時候照顧他的日常生活起居避免他發生意外甚至有些老人家有老人病什麼時候隨時高血壓心臟病等等跌倒不知道應該在健康的時候照顧他所以我們認為說"},{"start":711.493,"end":738.78,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"}]}},{"id":"153000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3493e5733cbea71cae6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e7307c4a423e313cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:10:54 - 10:23:27","影片長度":"00:12:33","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":753,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:23:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:10:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時11分）謝謝召委，我們有請鄭部長。"],["主席：好，我們請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長您好。首先恭喜您，今天是您第一次到立法院來備詢，我是國民黨的立法委員林倩綺，首先歡迎您，也希望您能夠在未來的日子裡面幫助我們，協助我們解決目前整個教育界所面臨的困境，並加以檢視調整，然後將一些東西拉回正軌，好嗎？接下來我有五點看法與建議，這個是我今天的主軸，其中有四點都是賴總統的政見。第一點是我所提出來的很重要的一點，是本席這邊提出來的，您上回來拜會的時候，我們其實也討論過一些教育相關的問題，所以目前在技職教育的這個部分，我這邊提出一個創造並推動16年技職國民教育的概念，這個概念是來自於最近的私校倒閉像骨牌效應一樣地發生，裡面當然有很多問題，我們被告知都是少子化的衝擊，然後在地就學其實也產生一些危機，很重要的一點就是在很多技職院校或者是某一些學校，基本上從一進入這個學校就揹負了就學貸款的起點，這個部分我想要透過政策來引導學生的適性發展跟為產業的人才來做培育。目前的氛圍就是私校的倒閉潮很像骨牌效應，但是我們現在看到的就是該倒的就讓它倒，然後還有一個輔導機制，就是輔了就倒，所以我們知道專案輔導學校，輔導就倒、該倒就讓它倒，這種氛圍變成善心人士想要給予跟投入跟救某一些學校，會變成被禿鷹似地看待，感覺上好像其他人都很無能，只有我們制定政策就必須一直往前衝、一直往前走，這個部分我覺得對許多學校來講是有點不太恰當而且不太公平。","所以我這邊提出幾點，少子化的衝擊其實我們已經看到很久了，那到底怎麼處理這個部分，怎麼處理少子化的衝擊？我們在過去的政策裡面把五專消除，結果變成是優質的五專被迫減班，然後劣質的高職被升格成五專，很多五專就變成某一些技職大專院校，感覺上劣幣驅逐良幣，這個部分其實有很多的不公義，接下來如果繼續少子化下去，不用20年，我想您這邊也知道，每一個人都可以念國立大學，我們全面的崩潰大概也是指日可待的，所以這個部分我們可不可以更積極一點？那我這邊提出來就是讓我們的技職院校能夠以國民教育的方式做延伸，過去是怎麼回事呢？就是技職院校原本的12年國民基本教育是兩個階段，前9年是強迫入學，後3年高等中學教育是自願非強迫式的入學，高中職畢業之後再增加第三階段，這個是我的方法，我們就增加4年技職教育，用鼓勵入學的方式，然後也可以減少學生的負擔，透過價格來引導學生，然後讓學生透過技職教育，真的能夠為臺灣的產業儲備一些人才，救技職就等於救產業，救產業就救了臺灣，所以透過技職的國民義務教育，讓價格引導學生的分流，讓人才為產業來做累積，在教育的這個部分，好嗎？私校也可以藉由這個潮流，用順勢的方式得以留存，倒閉潮可以停止一些，這是我先前就已經跟部長有提到的，今天提出一些具體的方法。","接下來幾個就是賴總統的政見，您一就位就其實已經到位，所以您提到開放學位陸生來臺，而且非常精準談到了學位生。針對學位生的部分，我也提出了一些說明跟建議。我們知道2020年其實因為疫情的關係，臺灣5年來在陸生這個部分大概就沒有再有連結，所以我這邊談的其實很簡單，我們要跨出這一步，做就對了，我提出了5個具體的步驟：第一個，請教育部先核定各大學的陸生招生名額，這是教育部可以做的；第二個部分，對陸生公告招生簡章，這很具體；第三個，讓陸生向學校提出入學申請；第四步，這個部分如果能夠做成，接下來我們就通過學校的篩選，公告錄取的名額跟名單。這四步結束之後就輪到陸委會來接手，陸委會的邱垂正主委在金門大學應該有很多的經驗也就是跟金門大學還有廈門大學合作的經驗，這些是邱主委的專業，我相信在教育部跟陸委會的聯合之下，陸生來臺，而且學位生來臺，應該是非常具體而且可以在您任內完成的，我替您把這個部分爬梳跟整理出來，這個是陸生來臺的部分，我們期待教育部能夠做到這一點，其實這個部分也可以解決很多現在臺灣學校的高教困境。當我們開放對岸的學位班招生，其實學士生可以救私校，博碩士生可以救公立學校，公立學校的研究能量是非常重要的，如同剛才有幾位委員談到，所以如果我們能夠善用陸生，那麼就如同部長所講的，讓兩岸的年輕人有更多健康互動的機會，我們善用陸生，也對他們公平以待，我相信大家在尊重的原則之下，都會有這個誠意讓彼此的學生能夠在我們所創造的平台有健康的交流，所以這是一個多贏的局面，好不好？這個是開放學位生，尤其是陸生這個部分，我給教育部的具體建議。","接下來是體育運動發展部，這個也是賴總統的政見，而且兩個黨都已經有共識，我相信這一點，如果在我們再更進一步而且很誠意地推動下，我想這是一個共識極高的政策，我期待在您的任內能夠幫賴總統把這個政策創造跟完成。","接下來，剛才有幾位委員提出提議，同時也是您這邊所講的，就是可不可以請教育部，再召開第9屆全國教育會議？從2010年上一屆的全國教育會議舉辦完了之後，到現在已經有14年沒有開了，從賴總統成為準總統到真正就職之間，好多教團都期待能開這樣的會議，這中間您就能聽到不僅是高教，甚至高教以下的中等教育還有各階層的教育，大家所碰到的困境跟可以解決的一些具體方法，如果您能舉辦這樣的一個教育會議，我相信以您的高度登高一呼，這樣的教育會議應該是可以完成的一件事情，也可以成為一個解決問題的平臺。","最後一點，您提到培養前瞻的技術以及國際移動的人才，我非常認同這一點。前瞻技術的一個重點，您這邊談到AI，當然臺灣本身已經有這樣的條件，再加上如果您在語言的技術層面能把大家導向一個真正可以實踐的方向，我相信國際移動人才在這幾年也可以培育一些。我相信原本立意良好，但是在執行上，我們知道一、兩個人知道跟一群人要做有很大的落差，所以要很務實地瞭解我們究竟在幾個階層有什麼作法。既然您說我們是全球民主的供應鏈，在這個平臺上，AI應該可以透過我們來推到全世界，但很重要的是您要怎麼培養量子電腦、機器人、精準醫療方面的前瞻性人才？如何培養國內的人才？這點是非常重要的，因為我們知道很多人對於國際人才的部分有很多的想法，我們如何透過這樣的一個政策，尤其是我們優勢的政策，可以讓產、官、學充分合作，並且把視野拉回國內的學子？重點放在國內的學子，而不是動不動就號召並投資大量金錢招收國際的學生，我們當然歡迎多元的文化，但是請不要忘記臺灣的教育在這幾年被實驗的過程當中，有很多需要處理跟解決的問題，所以請把視野拉回來，積極、專業並利用專案來全力培育國內的人才。","以上幾點是我對鄭部長所領導的教育部未來的一些建議跟看法，我期待在您的任內，尤其是高教出身的您能從很高的視野，而且還當過校長，我相信您一定能夠從您的視野把我們各階層的教育帶到一個正軌，讓我們對教育再次充滿希望跟期待，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，我想委員剛才提供非常多寶貴的意見，我們會把它審慎納入，結合產、官、學來合作，我們努力來推動，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長，謝謝。","接下來我們請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.835968750000001,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.05784375,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.32784375,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.047843750000002,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.570968750000006,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.98284375,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.99784375000002,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.35784375,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.97346875000002,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.41409375,"end":195.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.64596875,"end":226.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.39034375000003,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.68846875000003,"end":254.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.52284375000002,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.31096875000003,"end":260.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.40784375000004,"end":271.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.14034375,"end":275.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.93721875,"end":282.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.42534375,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.61846875000003,"end":291.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.23846875000004,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.72284375000004,"end":298.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.37659375000004,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.42596875000004,"end":311.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.48846875000004,"end":312.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.70346875,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.71534375000005,"end":349.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.22096875,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.44784375,"end":367.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.46284375000005,"end":374.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.72346875000005,"end":376.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.08596875,"end":377.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.40221875000003,"end":386.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.19409375000004,"end":392.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.99909375000004,"end":406.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.26284375,"end":426.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.35659375,"end":428.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.97659375,"end":438.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.38846875,"end":442.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":470.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.86034375,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.58971875000003,"end":481.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.04846875000004,"end":482.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.95971875000004,"end":486.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.72284375000004,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.06846875,"end":491.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.54909375000005,"end":528.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.99471875,"end":539.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.9297187500001,"end":577.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.80971875,"end":579.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.3115937499999,"end":582.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.5222187500001,"end":583.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.8047187500001,"end":585.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.7453437500001,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.45721875,"end":604.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.5947187500001,"end":607.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.8178437500001,"end":629.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.56534375,"end":634.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.1553437499999,"end":659.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.82659375,"end":660.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.8728437500001,"end":664.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.5134687500001,"end":667.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.3147187500001,"end":683.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.8859687500001,"end":692.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.68221875,"end":694.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.1965937500001,"end":699.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.34784375,"end":705.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.1484687500001,"end":707.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.9540937500001,"end":726.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.02284375,"end":730.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.8703437500001,"end":732.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.67159375,"end":735.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.76409375,"end":736.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.6709687500002,"end":750.0065937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.831,"end":6.072,"text":"謝謝張蕙 我們有請鄭部長"},{"start":17.422,"end":43.253,"text":"部長您好首先恭喜您今天是您第一次到立法院來備詢我是國民黨的立法委員林倩綺首先歡迎你也希望你能夠在未來的日子裡面來幫助我們來協助我們解決目前整個教育界所面臨的困境並加以檢視調整然後將一些東西拉回正軌"},{"start":45.213,"end":63.06,"text":"接下來我有五點的看法與建議這個是我今天的主軸也是未來在其中有四點都是賴總統的政見第一點是我這邊所提出來的很重要的一點這個是我這邊本席這邊提出來的"},{"start":65.066,"end":82.913,"text":"您上回來拜會的時候我們其實也討論過一些教育相關的這個問題所以目前在這個即職教育這個部分我這邊提出一個創造並推動16年即職國民教育的這樣一個概念那這個概念是來自於"},{"start":83.393,"end":99.967,"text":"我們在最近的這個私校的倒閉喔那像骨牌效應一樣的這個發生那裡面當然有很多問題啦那我們被告知都是少子化的一個衝擊然後在地就學其實也產生一些危機那很重要一點就是在"},{"start":100.848,"end":127.466,"text":"很多計職院校或者是某一些學校在基本上從一進入這個學校就背負了就學貸款的起點那我這個部分想要透過政策來引導學生的一個適性發展跟為產業的人才來做培育所以這邊目前我們的氛圍就是失調的這個倒閉潮很像骨牌效應但是我們現在看到的就是該倒的就讓他倒"},{"start":128.226,"end":157.014,"text":"然後還有一個輔導這個輔導機制啊那個這個服服服了就倒所以那個我們知道這個專案輔導學校啊輔導就倒啊該倒就讓他倒那這種氛圍變成善心人士想要給予跟投入跟就某一些學校那會變成被禿鷹式的看待那感覺上好像其他人都很無能那只有我們制定政策就必須一直往前衝一直往前走"},{"start":158.052,"end":158.232,"text":"稍指化的衝擊"},{"start":179.025,"end":193.462,"text":"我們在過去的政策裡面把這個武專的消除結果變成是優質的武專被迫減班然後劣質的高職被升格成武專那很多的這個武專就變成某一些"},{"start":194.522,"end":194.542,"text":"獲得獎項﹑獎項﹑獎項"},{"start":214.452,"end":226.353,"text":"所以這個部分我們可不可以更積極一點那我這邊提出來就是讓我們的技職院校能夠以國民教育的方式做延伸那過去是怎麼回事呢就是"},{"start":229.042,"end":253.739,"text":"基石院校原本的12年的國民基本教育是兩個階段前9年是強迫入學後3年是高等中學教育志願非強迫式的入學高中職畢業之後再增加第三階段這個是我的方法我們就增加四年技職教育用鼓勵入學的方式"},{"start":254.62,"end":281.02,"text":"然後也可以減少學生的負擔透過價格來引導學生然後讓學生透過技職教育真的能夠為台灣的產業儲備一些人才所以救技職就等於救產業救產業就救了台灣所以透過技職的國民義務教育讓價格引導學生的分流讓人才為產業"},{"start":285.049,"end":309.65,"text":"來做累積在教育的這個部分那私校也可以藉由這個潮流來用順勢的方式得以留存那倒閉潮可以停止一些那這是我想我在先前就已經跟這個部長有提到的那今天提出一些具體的方法那接下來呢幾個就是賴總統的這個政見"},{"start":315.31,"end":331.859,"text":"賴總統您這邊一就位就其實已經到位所以您這邊提到開放學位陸生來台而且非常的精準談到了學位生那這邊學位生的這個部分我這邊也提出了一些說明跟建議"},{"start":333.701,"end":348.816,"text":"我們知道2020年其實因為疫情的關係那台灣五年來在陸生這個部分大概就不太就沒有再有連結所以我這邊談的其實很簡單我們要跨出這一步做就對了那我提出了五個具體的步驟"},{"start":350.27,"end":377.28,"text":"第一個就是請教育部先核定各大學的入生招生名額這是教育部可以做的第二個部分就對入生公告招生簡章這是很具體第三個讓入生向學校提出入學申請那第四步這個部分如果能夠做成呢接下來我們就通過學校的篩選公告入取的名額跟名單"},{"start":378.442,"end":401.152,"text":"好那這四部結束之後呢就輪到陸委會來接手了那陸委會我們的這個邱淳正主委在金門大學那他應該有很多的經驗跟金大金門大學還有廈門大學廈大合作的經驗那這些是邱委員對不起邱主委的專業"},{"start":402.612,"end":426.027,"text":"我相信那在教育部跟陸委會的這個聯合之下那陸生來台而且學衛生來台應該是非常具體而且可以在您任內完成的這邊我替您把這個部分爬書跟整理出來好那這個是陸生來台的部分那我們期待教育部能夠做到這一點那其實這個部分也可以解決很多現在"},{"start":427.403,"end":427.423,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":443.535,"end":460.191,"text":"公立學校的研究能量是非常重要的如同剛才有幾位委員談到所以如果我們能夠善用陸生那麼就如同部長所講的讓兩岸的年輕人有更多健康互動的機會那我們善用陸生也對他們公平以待"},{"start":461.068,"end":483.947,"text":"我相信大家在一個尊重的原則之下都會有這個誠意讓我們彼此的學生能夠在我們所創造的平台有健康的交流所以這是一個多贏的局面這個是開放學衛生尤其是陸生這個部分我給教育部的具體建議接下來是體育運動發展部這個也是"},{"start":489.631,"end":508.688,"text":"總統的政見而且兩個黨都已經有共識那我相信這一點如果在我們再更進一步而且很誠意的推動下我想這是一個共識極高的一個政策那我期待在您的任內能夠幫賴總統把這個政策能夠創造跟完成"},{"start":513.692,"end":517.954,"text":"接下來,剛才有幾位委員做個提議可不可以請教育部也是您這邊所講的我們可不可以召開第9屆的全國教育會議從2010年上一屆"},{"start":529.119,"end":547.237,"text":"的這個全國教育會議舉辦完了之後呢到現在已經有14年沒有開了那在您這個賴總統上任就是已經成為準總統然後到真正就職之間那好多的教團都期待"},{"start":547.858,"end":577.858,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":580.4,"end":603.439,"text":"最後一點您這邊其實提到培養前瞻的技術以及國際移動的人才那我非常認同這一點那前瞻技術的一個重點您這邊談到AI那當然台灣本身就已經有這樣子的一個條件那再加上如果您在這個技術層面在語言的技術層面能夠"},{"start":604.48,"end":604.5,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":630.912,"end":652.583,"text":"您這邊說是我們全球民主的一個供應鏈那在這個平台上AI應該可以透過我們來推到全世界但是很重要的是那麼你要怎麼樣培養量子電腦機器人精準醫療方面的前瞻性人才然後如何培養國內的人才這點是非常重要的"},{"start":653.123,"end":664.601,"text":"因為我們知道很多人對於這個國際人才的這個部分有很多的想法那我們如何透過這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":665.563,"end":665.723,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":695.696,"end":716.752,"text":"實驗的過程當中有很多需要處理跟解決的問題所以請把視野拉回來積極專業並利用專案來全力培育國內的人才那以上幾點是我對鄭部長所領導的教育部未來的一些建議跟看法"},{"start":717.492,"end":735.839,"text":"我期待在您的任內尤其是高教出身的您能夠從很高的視野而且還當過校長我相信您一定能夠從你的視野把我們各階層的教育帶到一個正軌讓我們對教育再次充滿希望跟期待謝謝部長"},{"start":738.155,"end":742.679,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指正我想委員剛才提供了非常多寶貴的意見我們會把他這個審慎的納入結合這一個慘寬寫的來合作我們來努力來推動謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152999","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3050d84ebc29127365186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e0ed430b54b12589a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:08:56 - 10:17:12","影片長度":"00:08:16","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":496,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:17:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T10:08:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.76846875,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.13971875,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.73409375,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.227218750000002,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.750343750000003,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.35784375,"end":26.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.507843750000003,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.52471875,"end":27.047843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.735343750000002,"end":28.836593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.836593750000002,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":28.988468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.988468750000003,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.579093750000002,"end":33.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.945968750000002,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.00471875,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.25784375,"end":41.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.57721875,"end":43.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.14659375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.180343750000006,"end":46.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.289718750000006,"end":47.736593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.60159375,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.57596875,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.132843750000006,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.976593750000006,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.039093750000006,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.77659375,"end":62.56971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.07596875,"end":75.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.96846875,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.19471875,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.47471875000001,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.98346875,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.36534375,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.27034375,"end":145.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.92784375000002,"end":148.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.53096875,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.69534375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.32346875000002,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.93096875,"end":154.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":158.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.88846875000002,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.02346875,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.05721875,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.94721875000002,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.97659375,"end":168.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.83659375000002,"end":169.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.21534375000002,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.05471875,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.15971875000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.37846875000002,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.64846875,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.72409375,"end":195.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.56346875,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.25721875000002,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.92346875,"end":202.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.90221875,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.73846875,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.20721875,"end":262.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.24096875,"end":250.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.87346875000003,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.69784375,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.16846875000005,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.07909375,"end":288.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.96471875000003,"end":295.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.82534375,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.29284375000003,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.00971875000005,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.48534375,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.16846875000005,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.82659375000003,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.61471875,"end":315.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.12471875,"end":324.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.63846875,"end":328.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.72659375,"end":329.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.73471875,"end":330.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.76846875,"end":331.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.66284375000004,"end":349.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.49346875000003,"end":335.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.19159375000004,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.01846875,"end":368.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.40971875,"end":358.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.68284375,"end":367.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.02409375,"end":369.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.71159375,"end":371.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.58471875000004,"end":371.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.60159375,"end":372.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.91784375000003,"end":373.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.70034375,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.55659375000005,"end":391.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.90221875000003,"end":392.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.40846875,"end":404.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.49096875000004,"end":405.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.85784375000003,"end":411.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.10159375,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.83971875000003,"end":428.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.90096875,"end":429.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.92159375,"end":435.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.92096875000004,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.50721875000005,"end":435.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.09784375000004,"end":438.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.00471875000005,"end":438.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.07221875000005,"end":441.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.17721875,"end":443.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.19409375000004,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.32034375,"end":446.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.95659375,"end":450.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.81721875000005,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.81284375,"end":455.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.57159375000003,"end":466.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.67534375,"end":474.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.03284375000004,"end":486.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.10034375000004,"end":475.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.16159375,"end":488.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.58346875,"end":493.27034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.895,"end":24.809,"text":"有請何部長。請部長。部長早安。這個禮拜六我有去屏東就業博覽會。是。謝謝勞動部在那邊的活動很成功。不過我當時有說,有跟當時的年輕人說現在的那個平均薪資是最低薪資是183塊對不對?那韓國呢?"},{"start":29.71,"end":49.182,"text":"大概是兩百塊日本大概是兩百一十塊我是希望說有沒有一個機制可以比照軍公教如果是逐年條條的話是不是有這個機會您講的是時薪嘛那當然我們基本工資已經條八年了那今年最低工資元年"},{"start":49.862,"end":74.567,"text":"一百八十三塊嗎?好,那我們針對今天的問題,因為本身是醫生。那,常常我們在地方服務的時候,就是巴士量表的問題是照顧著最痛苦的一件事情。比如說我們在訪寮,然後他就說必須要到屏東。那訪寮到屏東大概一個小時的距離,那這只是平地的部分。"},{"start":76.047,"end":76.227,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧"},{"start":103.636,"end":126.884,"text":"相對衍生了很多這方面的一個困擾那是不是在嚴案就在嚴厲的時候是不是把醫生一般的醫生證明就可以當作是他的一個申請需求我是指八十歲以上那如果說他本來就有這些既定的疾病他不也不可能也不可能好轉那就按照他原本的一個疾病的形態去申請就好了不用再舟車老頓去去特別申請這張你覺得呢"},{"start":128.593,"end":145.476,"text":"對,我也完全敬佩你們提案的精神。您剛剛講的週車勞頓,其實我們也透過各種行政措施來改良。比如現在其實已經發展到居家醫療,可以到家裡。"},{"start":146.998,"end":169.455,"text":"道宅評估那第二個我們準備我想知道現在的申請比率成功的居家醫療嗎對我是覺得他的困難度還是很高對對對對對所以我是希望能夠減便當然是如果是居家醫療的醫生可以開也OK可以可以現在可以開要廣為推行是是是對還有包括說像未來可不可能"},{"start":170.296,"end":185.619,"text":"我們就到鄰近的社區診所讓他開我看到這樣是OK的齁如果是未來是這樣是OK的對我覺得可能用這種行政措施的改良會比我們用整個大的制度型的對各地區的衛生所或是醫療院所如果可以開就好了"},{"start":185.759,"end":202.91,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":203.37,"end":226.706,"text":"閒置嗎?比如說我們現在是爭取重度、中度而已。那輕度跟陪伴的話就給我們國人的看護工。這樣會不會就可以避免他們的一個逃跑?比如說我怎麼說呢?如果現在的他們的薪資是兩萬多塊,那如果現在按照一般薪資是一百八十三塊,如果這樣算的話,他們應該要拿十三萬的。那對啊,那如果說你可以把它"},{"start":227.086,"end":227.526,"text":"一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":249.281,"end":267.922,"text":"因為我常常看到逃跑率很高的是怎麼樣?因為我在訪寮地區服務。有的時候一個移工來,他連一句國語都不會聽,更何況是台語。來了以後,他到了那個家裡才發現他要照顧兩個人。就是照顧一個比較輕度做輪椅的阿公,然後臥床的阿嬤。"},{"start":268.643,"end":286.015,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":286.101,"end":311.647,"text":"議員：盧縣"},{"start":312.047,"end":325.311,"text":"因此這樣子開會排擠啦,排擠重度失能者的被照顧的需求。 那你知道民原住民的,照顧民原住民的那些外籍移工的逃跑率很低嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":325.311,"end":327.991,"text":"我幾乎沒有看過逃跑的移工。 那為什麼叫為什麼?"},{"start":330.832,"end":357.017,"text":"我們會把他當作是家人一樣。第一個,第二個是我們的文化很接近。他甚至有時候會學到比我們還要程度還要高的一個程度,因為他們都是跟老人家在一起嘛。結果他們後來在講族裔的社會覺得比一般小朋友講得還要好。因為我們是南島語系國家嘛。然後相對在生活上面就很像比較一致。所以讓他的文化的一個尊崇度就會比較高。"},{"start":357.517,"end":373.643,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":387.808,"end":412.609,"text":"護士長齁我想問的就是說我們那個通常有人跟我反應就是說他們要去職業訓練比如說大客車駕駛或者是大貨車駕駛的時候沒有班別那如果有班別的時候會覺得說很像很像那個像他會考量叫做什麼媒合的就業就業率來來審核是不是你大概可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":414.551,"end":428.537,"text":"我們每年的那個職業訓練的班別都會在我們的網站上公告。然後如果我們族人有需要的話就可以來報名。我想知道他的經費來源是哪裡?"},{"start":431.579,"end":446.308,"text":"有的是從我們的公益彩券回饋。那為什麼不是從勞動部?勞動部也有。我們也有跟勞動部合作。他們說常常是因為他們被評比的時候不及格,所以會被扣錢。"},{"start":448.993,"end":473.884,"text":"老公部的部分嗎?那這部分我們再了解一下。那我們本身也是都有開。我說承作單位可能因為他的每合的一個就業的機率如果說沒有到達一定的%的話他會把他原本應該給的那個費用是會打折扣的是有這個情形?對就是如果說我們本來是補助40萬然後他整個人數啊"},{"start":474.164,"end":492.297,"text":"我是希望原住民的部分不要因爲這樣子就做折扣,因爲就已經很困難進行職業訓練了,然後好不容易得到執照,你又把它扣掉的話,會造成一些想要做的人沒有辦法...會...怎麼講?報告委員,我們從113年開始就不扣這個部分了。那我知道了,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3c3784f50fb8024ca5186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e0630bd2d7ebc433a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:59:13 - 10:08:40","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":567,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:08:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:59:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.578468750000001,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.26159375,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.699718750000002,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.77971875,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.31909375,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.95971875,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.84971875,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.30846875,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.830968750000004,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.91909375,"end":41.729093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.98221875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.47534375,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.673468750000005,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.525343750000005,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.984718750000006,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.15096875,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":70.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.07909375,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.06534375000001,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.36034375,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.98596875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.09346875000001,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.43346875,"end":161.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.40659375,"end":165.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.19909375,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.95784375000002,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.17034375,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.56096875,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.82909375000003,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.04346875000002,"end":229.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.58159375000002,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.14659375000002,"end":240.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.55909375000002,"end":239.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.55034375000002,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.59659375,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.63034375,"end":302.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.61659375000002,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.32034375,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.75346875,"end":291.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.84596875,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.71784375000004,"end":307.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.83096875,"end":317.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.02784375000005,"end":324.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.57159375000003,"end":321.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.08159375,"end":324.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.09846875,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.97596875,"end":335.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.02159375,"end":330.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.38409375000003,"end":333.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.30784375,"end":340.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.07096875,"end":338.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.48409375,"end":343.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.12534375,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.18846875,"end":359.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.76596875,"end":348.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.14346875,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.00471875000005,"end":384.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.03409375,"end":392.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.50971875000005,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.53221875,"end":415.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.89846875,"end":417.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.29909375000005,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.98659375000005,"end":420.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.07909375,"end":425.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.23909375000005,"end":423.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.77909375,"end":423.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.60159375,"end":426.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.75346875,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.30534375,"end":437.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.85284375000003,"end":447.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.16784375000003,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.59659375,"end":460.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.97159375,"end":461.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.47346875000005,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.07659375000003,"end":465.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.65846875000005,"end":472.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.68284375,"end":474.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.65721875,"end":477.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.82971875000004,"end":478.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.02784375000005,"end":479.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.90534375000004,"end":480.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.74471875,"end":482.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.55034375,"end":484.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.71471875000003,"end":486.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.29659375000006,"end":487.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.29221875,"end":488.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.06846875,"end":490.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.97096875000005,"end":493.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.06346875,"end":494.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.39659375,"end":497.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.28221875,"end":500.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.21846875000006,"end":509.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.33534375000005,"end":524.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.34971875,"end":534.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.94034375,"end":527.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.2522187500001,"end":528.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.94346875,"end":533.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.2722187500001,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.74409375,"end":541.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.80284375,"end":545.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.9709687500001,"end":553.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.08784375,"end":563.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.4153437500001,"end":565.9509687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.241,"end":10.063,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是不是有請何部長?有請部長。委員好。部長好。是。部長今天本席安排有很多委員的提案針對80歲以上就免巴士量表。我想這一個提案其實為什麼這麼多委員不約而同提出來?那主要是"},{"start":34.844,"end":63.442,"text":"我們看到在總統大選的時候事實上三黨的候選人針對這個巴士量表所引發的問題大家其實都有提出自己的政見跟看法那包括這個賴清德總統他說台灣社會的確有照顧服務的需求巴士量表已經產生問題到了不得不改的情況"},{"start":64.527,"end":67.706,"text":"這句話何部長你之前有接受到這樣的訊息嗎?"},{"start":70.299,"end":95.858,"text":"是我想當時確實那總統他曾經非常重視這個問題沒有錯對那當選之後應該更重視吧當然當然他現在握有權力囉那過去巴士亮表所引發這一些不必要的爭議甚至讓這個醫師遭受到暴力攻擊我覺得這些家屬應該也不是蓄意的但是是在情急之下"},{"start":96.485,"end":120.391,"text":"引伸了這樣的一個爭端。那我覺得如果我們的政策可以去免除這樣的一個爭議,又可以幫這一些這個需要照顧的長者就是引進適當的這個外籍看護工。我覺得這個在政策上才是兩全其美。這個也是為什麼這麼多委員提出來就是要求"},{"start":121.464,"end":148.517,"text":"80歲以上應該廢除巴士量表。不用這麼讓這些長輩這麼的舟車勞頓讓家屬這麼的著急沒有辦法找到適當的人來照顧喔我想這個是很多委員真的是從民眾的角度看到他們的需求而這樣的一個當時由侯友宜總統候選人所提出來的政見其實真的是廣獲好評喔"},{"start":149.898,"end":160.611,"text":"在基省裡面很多民眾是非常支持的那這個就代表說這樣的需求其實是非常的迫切所以我們才排了這樣的一個議案"},{"start":161.448,"end":187.543,"text":"那這個我請問部長你是贊成還是是反對?委員我非常肯定你們提案的這樣子的一個精神這我這完全當然是肯定的那只是當然我就是剛剛跟你們跟貴會有報告過就是所以在去年之後馬上就發展出兩個模式一個就是多元認定另外一個就移工"},{"start":188.743,"end":206.351,"text":"進入這個家庭照顧的這樣子的一個示範方案。那麼我們希望當然今天委員的提案也可以讓我們有更精進的思考啦。那我們如何一起看是不是能夠在您的提案的這樣子的一個能夠既支持您的提案然後也能夠這個兼顧。不過你還是不容諱言啦因為它會衝擊到整個長照體系。"},{"start":217.056,"end":240.845,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":241.613,"end":260.435,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":260.435,"end":289.599,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":289.719,"end":301.982,"text":"多元認證或將來外籍開戶工半天,這個我都很贊成。但是你不能忽略有一些他需要就是整天。他現在其實就是卡在這個巴士量表不上不下的一個情況。"},{"start":303.09,"end":319.858,"text":"於是有這樣子的人啊所以當你去採取一個放寬的時候不代表會嚴重衝擊到你的長照體系我就不是這樣子混為一談在政府的政策工具上面你還是可以去設計我了解當然我們多元認定的方式是不是能夠再更精進"},{"start":320.578,"end":339.577,"text":" 是啊。 是是是。這個我想我們可以一起來討論好不好。對啊。你既然可以多元認定那取消八十歲以上的八十量表這也不是什麼問題啊。這是符合你多元認定上的精神不是嗎?你多元認定不是就是不要用唯一的標準來算嗎?其實八十量表是一個醫學認定的標準啊。是啊。我們也必須跟衛福部一起討論。"},{"start":340.618,"end":367.511,"text":"是。那就趕快討論吧。因為禮拜三我們會就進入主條。就是要來討論這樣的一個議案。我覺得有時候我們的政策也要與時俱進。就是要去考量到真正的需求。那這個不只是對於80歲以上老人。我們就是免這個巴士量表的評估。就不用讓他週車勞頓再跑到醫院去。那一方面其實也讓家裡的這些照顧者,特別"},{"start":367.751,"end":391.642,"text":"特别是年輕人知道說如果當他家裡有年紀這麼高的長輩的話過去一定要是他非常重度或者是符合巴士量表裡面比較嚴格的標準他才有機會去申請到外籍看護工那你如果現在這個部分可以去降低這個門檻的話對於這些年輕人來講他得到了一線升級"},{"start":392.833,"end":417.973,"text":"有的人不用辭職只是為了照顧家裡的老人因為他會擔心那他可以有一個選擇是我可以花錢去請外籍看護工讓他的爸爸媽媽可以得到一個比較好的照顧他上班的時候可以比較安心我覺得這個為什麼是80歲以上因為現行的我們的平均餘命你知道男生是多少嗎男性不到80歲79的樣子"},{"start":421.104,"end":432.24,"text":"大概是77.7欸女性才是84.3所以你說這個是一個很寬鬆的標準嗎?不是喔其實很多的男性平均逾命在"},{"start":432.742,"end":433.262,"text":"王育敏王育敏"},{"start":462.792,"end":490.351,"text":"參加的問題我們來看一下女性參加的問題坦白講我擔任立委到現在很多委員一提再提都沒有辦法突破但是我們看看為什麼我們鄰近的國家日本南韓中國大陸甚至印度印尼他們都可以做到這樣子但是我們就是參加要延長"},{"start":492.151,"end":500.337,"text":"這件事情其實已經提了很久那勞動部也一直是反對可不可以講反對真正的理由是什麼"},{"start":501.457,"end":523.822,"text":"護主反對就是怕對女性在就是這個產後女性齁就業其實會有隱性的歧視啦其實真的就怕這個啦那我要跟委員報告我們那個產假當然現在目前表面看是8週嘛可是包括安胎假包括產檢假合併起來有心部分喔這個部分合併就已經都15週了"},{"start":525.282,"end":545.691,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":546.051,"end":548.253,"text":"王育敏委員老發言"}]}},{"id":"152997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b393a3aabe35375fcce6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e06b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:57:53 - 10:10:35","影片長度":"00:12:42","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":762,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:10:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:57:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我們請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。部長，在你之前，歷任教育部部長當中，杜正勝可以說是我們認為政治性最強烈的，而且他的爭議非常大，我們回想過去他對教育所作的政策當中，大概就是把臺灣的地圖倒過來看，堅持非常大的本土化，我必須說你過去給我們的印象也是政治立場非常鮮明的，我覺得這是你個人的政治理念，也是你個人的選擇，但是我一開始還是要提醒，教育部部長這個位置，最忌諱的就是把政治的意識帶入教育，我覺得政治是不應該凌駕在教育之上的，政治更是不可污染教育，所以一開始部長是不是可以承諾，絕對不會把你個人的意識形態帶到教育？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想身為一個教育人，跟委員報告，我只關心臺灣的教育怎麼更好，然後怎麼從專業……我從過去一路走來，在談教育的時候，在談人才培育，只有從專業。我上個禮拜跟我們司處聽取業務簡報的時候，也特別強調所有的東西一定要找對的人，然後回到自己的專業……"],["柯委員志恩：好，我希望部長能夠就是如此，就是以教育為一個本業，不要有太多政治的立場，為什麼呢？因為就誠如剛剛洪孟楷委員提到的，當初的卡管案真的讓我們的高教受到非常嚴重的傷害。部長，你是不是百分之百願意捍衛大學的自主？你絕對要捍衛大學的自主，非常地簡單，因為我們在2018年7月的時候，曾經有14個──那時候是公立大學成立了全國大學自主聯盟，他們願意站出來痛批教育部破壞大學自主，所以很多人願意站出來聲援管中閔，這件事情，其實我必須要說，剛剛洪孟楷特別提到了周祝瑛，他也是我政大的學姐，所以你也是我政大的學長，他是在幫你，你雖然說你不復記憶，但是他只是告訴你，你當年沒有站出來，但是你私下還是認為教育部這樣涉入大學是不對的，所以你應該謝謝他，對不對？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想大學很重要的就是大家能夠自由的分享許多所謂的……"],["柯委員志恩：是，我不會問你如果你當年是教育部長，會不會比較好？我還是強調一貫的作法，政治不應該涉入任何教育、大學要絕對的自主，你來自大學，你應該很清楚這樣的概念，我們希望你能夠一秉初衷，這樣可以做得到吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：這是我的承諾。"],["柯委員志恩：好，這是你的承諾，很好！","我們接下來開始來討論一下大家非常關切的雙語教育，因為賴總統的目標是在2030年要讓臺灣變成雙語國家，他也花了100億，部長，但是你也知道，雙語政策亂象叢生，怨聲載道，賴總統還是堅持，這跟他的個性其實非常有關係，他非常的拗！你在中山大學時非常配合政府的雙語政策，你真的認為2030年臺灣可以變成雙語國家嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我覺得語言的學習，特別要成為一個官方語言，不是那麼容易，所以2030年，我覺得在整個政策如何讓我們的新世代年輕人能夠直接跟國際接軌這些，不管從產業或者移動的能力，那個方向是……"],["柯委員志恩：是正確的，但是它變成……"],["鄭部長英耀：2030年，我也同意主席所講，我們都很清楚，可能要有更長的時間，但是從現在開始做，如果要走30年，現在不做，未來還是得要30年……"],["柯委員志恩：2030年距離現在只有5、6年的時間，現在是2024……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我的意思是也許許多的政策充滿理想性……"],["柯委員志恩：所以不要把這個時間掐在2030年……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我同意……"],["柯委員志恩：因為目前來說的話，部長，你應該很清楚，太多學者專家，包括高教的，包括外語學院的，包括英文系這樣背景出身的人，他們說這樣的一個政策真的是完全沒有經過思考、完全是做到非常走火入魔，而且雙語教育真的會成為國王的新衣！然後我也很驚訝去年9月賴總統特別表示，它是執行出了問題，要形成國家團隊，用更包容的方式來推動雙語教育。我真的是聽不太懂，請問部長，你是未來的執行單位，什麼叫做用更包容的方法來推廣雙語教育，你可不可以解釋一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們並不是雙語國家，我們是現在在推雙語教育的政策，這個人才培育，我們看到產業也都在……"],["柯委員志恩：產業非常的需要，部長，你現在是教育部長，你是執行者，你就要特別去跟賴總統建議，你站在第一線上面，你就應該告訴我們，目前我們臺灣要推廣雙語教育，特別是英文的教育，到底出了哪一些問題？我們來看看這些政策，你覺得做得到嗎？在第16頁，你自己寫的，積極建構於英文、國文、本土語文3項課程之外的其他領域。你還告訴我們，要落實中小學採全英語的教課，你的第16頁所講的，要用英語教藝術、英語教體育、英語教數學，有可能嗎？部長，我們現在距離2030年只剩下6年的時間，你認為我們現在有辦法做到這一些事情嗎？如果沒有辦法，你是執行者，你要給賴總統什麼樣的建議？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，大家都肯定雙語教育在人才培育是重要的，但是我也同意我們針對過去的政策做滾動式的修正，這個2030年，以現在來看，確實包含師資或者城鄉的，是有落差的……"],["柯委員志恩：它是有問題的，它根本做不到！部長，而且你剛剛點出來的師資，77%的縣市根本就是本國師資不足，然後你知道最大的問題是什麼？因為我們雙語政策是在108課綱上路之後才中間跳出來的，配合那時候的行政院長特別提到的，它根本不在我們課綱的表定規劃上面，它突然冒出來，你覺得以這個既有的十年大計課綱當中，你怎麼樣讓它落實？你怎麼讓它跟課綱並存？我覺得這是一個很大的問題，而且我想在場的人都知道，永遠要教育部補貼人力，因為師資不足，英語教育是師父領進門，學生要有十足的動機，不要有老師教、有課程排再去學英文，這是永遠不夠的，部長，你同意吧！","目前我們整個教育的現場裡面根本沒有讓孩子可以自主學習，目前有那麼多的平臺，他可以自主去學習，這點還是沒有辦法做到，我們有很多輔助的工具，就是整個課程的教法完全沒有辦法！而且我還特別跟你提到，你看政大、中正，很多頂大把英檢的畢業門檻都取消，這是大學裡面自己做決定的，因為他們一向認為沒有中級檢定完全不妨礙成為頂大學生該具備的。如果是這樣的話，未來配合雙語教育，你還要我們教師甄試不分科都要中級檢定？你認為任何一個老師的英文只要到中級檢定，他就有辦法成為比較好的老師嗎？如果沒有的話，為什麼還要有這個規定？部長，我這樣說對不對？你要教體育、你要教藝術，英文也要中級檢定，中級檢定表示英文就好嗎？現在所有英文中級檢定過的，我不相信他英文可以講得好，還可以用英文發音來教學生。","部長，你剛剛提到了，你要澈底聽到第一線老師的聲音，目前整個制度完全亂了套，只不過因為是賴總統提出的，而且有100億，他完全沒有考慮到怎麼補、怎麼貼永遠都是不夠的，重點是孩子的學習動機，給他一個東西，他就有辦法好好的發展，現在我們的教育系統完全沒有這一套，你同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該說我們來努力，我們也看到地方政府確實在教師甄試出現了一些我們不希望的甄選方式……"],["柯委員志恩：本來就是，部長，我跟你說，各大學裡面也常常都是這樣的，為了配合教育部的雙語政策，要讓他們的卓越計畫可以寫得很好、深耕計畫可以寫得很好，還跟你報告，所有的教職員工，說實在的，英語系畢業的都比一般人來得更容易進去，為什麼？因為它都有英文門檻，所以我們的英文門檻不是這樣的，要變成雙語國家不是這樣做的，這個不可能的！我在國外留學那麼多年，也不是透過這個方法就有辦法讓自己的英文變得很好。","部長，所以我強烈的要求，你真的應該開一個有關於雙語政策的國是會議，真的好好的聽所有的教育團體、第一線的老師到底怎麼樣來看待這件事情，這個是你最快時間能夠瞭解目前雙語教育政策的最好方式，我還特別給你打包票，2030年賴總統的雙語國家目標絕對沒有辦法達到，因為只有6年的時間，有太多事情要補足了。","最後，我要就教於你剛剛所提到的，大家都會關心陸生來臺，因為我自己在大學教書，我很清楚，你在書面報告當中沒有提到有關陸生的這個部分，你剛剛已經承認，這可能是你們太忙，疏失了，但我要告訴部長一個數據，112年陸生學士班已經快接近清零的階段，我們現在從頭到尾加在一起，說實在的，連續4年停招，你如果要在明年開放的話，我覺得這還有一大段路要走，因為整個學士班已經快接近清零的階段，而且目前為止研修生大概只剩下2,500人，520之後可能會更加的慘烈！這可能要拿出非常多的策略及方法，而且我自己在大學裡面，說實在，我看到我的研究生有一些來自大陸的，我根本不管他是來自哪裡，他的程度相當不錯，但是我要找他當研究助理、想要給獎學金都沒有機會，那是因為我們的政策，部長，你覺得這樣公平嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上，他們現在也可以領獎學金，也可以擔任研究助理……"],["柯委員志恩：我是覺得像學校的工讀這些東西不要去管……"],["鄭部長英耀：目前這是被允許的。"],["柯委員志恩：跟一般的港澳學生比起來，其實陸生在很多地方的條件上還是會被限縮，我沒有特別幫他們講話，但是我覺得用人唯才，學生有意願到臺灣來學習，應該給他更公平的機會。","因為我自己說要準時，所以我一定要問快一點。","最重要的是兩岸高教，部長，你也知道高教的交流是非常重要的，但是2021年清大的清華海峽研究院被嚴查，現在國科會的主委吳誠文就是當年清大的副校長，現在他講起那個時候還是覺得委屈，因為被抹紅，這個寒蟬效應目前還是有，目前為止一個月根本來不到一個學者，他們認為官方卡得很凶。我只問最後一句話，目前來說的話，鄭部長，你的態度，你會用滲透及統戰的觀點來看待兩岸的學術交流嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想基本上我是不會從這個角度，我還是強調學術的交流就是從專業、真正的學術，這一個名詞對我來講，基本上，我是……"],["柯委員志恩：我們都很清楚學術就是在專業上來做討論，可是現在完完全全變一個非常單純的世界，只要跟對岸有任何關聯度的話，大家就用非常多不同的方法賦予它很多不同的政治意識，我覺得這對學術本身來說，對彼此交流不管在學生或在學者專家來說，此風是沒有辦法的，我希望部長能夠一如你剛剛所承諾的，該是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣，讓世界各國的交流都能夠維持在教育單純的一個基準點上，這點應該是你也可以同意的吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指教，我想這一個方向是無庸置疑的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：接下來我們請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.06409375,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.29596875,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.50221875,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.750968750000002,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.41284375,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.543468750000002,"end":56.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.84721875,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.07596875,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.91471875,"end":75.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.76596875,"end":89.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.20284375,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.70909375000001,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.13221875,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":159.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":174.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.80534375000002,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.95284375,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.74096875,"end":231.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.84721875000002,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.41659375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.99659375000002,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.96659375000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.19409375,"end":299.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.96721875000003,"end":313.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.79221875,"end":361.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.46284375000005,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.86471875,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.14409375,"end":471.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.19346875,"end":474.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.05784375,"end":477.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.57221875000005,"end":513.3684687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.1615937500001,"end":526.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.24409375,"end":629.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.5359687499999,"end":635.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.45471875,"end":637.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.70346875,"end":644.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.8290937500001,"end":648.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.44471875,"end":648.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.99284375,"end":668.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.4284687500001,"end":678.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.77721875,"end":705.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.78971875,"end":711.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.4428437500001,"end":719.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.72034375,"end":752.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.2297187500001,"end":758.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.07284375,"end":759.0178437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.113,"end":6.254,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請鄭部長。好,請鄭部長。好,部長好。來,部長。我想在你之前,歷任教育部長當中,杜政聖可以說是我們認為政治性格是最強烈的。而且他爭議的非常的大。我們回想過去他所對於教育做的政策當中,大概就是他把台灣的地圖倒過來看。"},{"start":29.48,"end":56.596,"text":"﹗"},{"start":56.716,"end":61.536,"text":"部長你是不是可以承諾絕對不會把你個人的意識形態帶到教育"},{"start":63.097,"end":87.665,"text":"我想身為一個教育人跟委員報告我只關心台灣的教育怎麼更好然後怎麼樣從專業我一直從過去一路以來在談教育的時候在談人才培育只有從專業我也特別在這一次在上個禮拜在跟我們師處這個聽這個業務簡報的時候所有的東西一定要找對的人然後回到"},{"start":89.326,"end":107.077,"text":"我希望部長就是能夠是如此的就是以教育為一個本業不要有太多政治的一個立場為什麼呢因為就誠如剛剛洪孟凱委員提到的當初的卡管案真的是讓我們的高教受到非常嚴重的傷害那部長你是說百分之百願意捍衛大學的自主"},{"start":108.188,"end":126.755,"text":"你絕對是捍衛大學的自主因為非常的簡單因為我們在2018年7月的時候曾經有14個那時候是現任的公立大學成立了全國大學自主聯盟他們願意站出來痛批教育部來破壞大學自主所以很多人願意站出來聲援管中你"},{"start":127.615,"end":141.001,"text":"所以這件事情呢其實我必須要說剛剛洪孟凱特別提到的周志英他也是我政大的學姐所以你也是我政大的學長他是在幫你他在幫你你雖然說你不負記憶但是他只是告訴你說你當年沒有站出來但是你私下還是認為這個教育部這樣的一個涉入大學是不對的所以你應該謝謝他嘛對不對部長"},{"start":152.714,"end":157.479,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況：邀請教育部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":175.124,"end":201.584,"text":"這是我的承諾這是你的承諾很好我們接下來開始討論一下大家非常關切的一個雙語教育因為我們的賴總統他是目標是在2030年時候呢他要讓台灣變成雙語的國家那他也花了100億但是呢部長你也知道嘛雙語的是亂象重生越生再到但是賴總統還是質疑這個他的個性是非常的關心非常的new那你在中山大學是非常配合政府的雙語的政策"},{"start":202.806,"end":203.57,"text":"那你真的認為2030台灣可以變成雙語國家嗎?"},{"start":208.749,"end":237.594,"text":"我覺得議員的一個學習特別要成為一個官方的議員他不是那麼容易所以2030年我覺得在整個政策就是說如何讓我們的新世代年輕人能夠有國際這個直接能夠跟國際接軌的這些不管從產業或者移動的能力我想那個方向是是正確的但是他變成2030年我也同意主席所講你我我們都很清楚他可能要有"},{"start":238.234,"end":253.251,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":253.771,"end":278.061,"text":"時間恰在2030年因為目前來說的話真的是部長你應該很清楚太多學者專家包括高教包括去外語學院包括英文系的這樣的一個背景出身的人他說真的是這麼樣的一個政策啊政策完全沒有經過思考完全是做出非常到著火入魔而且雙語教育真的會成為國王的新衣啊然後呢我很驚訝的這個目前為止我們去年9月這個賴總統啊他特別表示"},{"start":283.103,"end":283.823,"text":"拜託幫我解釋一下"},{"start":299.974,"end":299.994,"text":"部長．"},{"start":314.994,"end":334.644,"text":"必須要以你像是教育部長你是執行者你就要特別的去跟賴總統來建議你站在第一線上面你就要告訴我們現在目前我們台灣要推廣特別是教英文的教育你們到底出了哪一些的問題我們來看看他們的這些政策你覺得做得到嗎你說在第16頁你是寫的積極建構於英文國文"},{"start":335.765,"end":360.017,"text":"本土語言之三項課程之外的其他的領域你還告訴我們要落實中小學才全英語的教課你這個16月所講的要用英語教藝術英語教體育英語教數學有可能嗎部長我們現在距離2030年只剩下6年的時間你認為我們現在有辦法做到這一些事情嗎如果沒有辦法你是執行者你要給賴總統什麼樣的建議啊"},{"start":361.892,"end":386.083,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心大家都肯定雙贏的一個教育在人才培育是重要的但是我也同意我們怎麼樣針對過去的一個政策做滾動式的修正這個2030年看起來以現在來看它確實包含失資或者偏城鄉的一個它是有落差的它是有問題的它根本做不到而且部長你剛點出來的失資"},{"start":388.404,"end":391.406,"text":"777%的縣市根本就是本國的獅子不一樣嘛然後呢你知道最大的一個問題是什麼因為我們雙語政策在108課綱上路之後才中間跳出來的配合那時候行政院長特別提到的他根本不在我們的課綱的規劃的表定的規劃上面嘛你突然冒出來"},{"start":406.796,"end":429.13,"text":"你覺得以既有的十年大計的這個課綱當中你怎麼樣來落實你怎麼跟課綱來做一個並存我覺得這是個很大的問題而且我想在場的人都知道永遠要教育部比補貼人力私自部主英語教育是你師父領進門學生要有十足的動機不要動不動有老師教有課程牌你再去學英文這是永遠不夠部長你同意吧"},{"start":429.71,"end":440.913,"text":"那目前我們整個教育的一個現場裏面根本沒有讓孩子可以有自主學習目前有那麼多的平台他可以自主去學習這點還是沒有辦法做到我們有很多輔助的工具就是整個課程的一個教法完全沒有辦法而且呢你看你現在把這個政大我還特別給你提到政大中正很多頂大的他的英英檢的畢業門檻都取消這是大學裏面自己做決定的但是他們一向的認為說終極檢定完全不妨礙成為頂大學生該具備的"},{"start":459.518,"end":459.639,"text":"部長,我說得對嗎?"},{"start":478.598,"end":485.623,"text":" 你要教體育 你要教藝術 英文要中級檢定 中級檢定就表示英文就好嘛 現在所有中級檢定英文過的 我不相信他英文可以講得好 還可以用英文來發音來教學生 這個真是完全政策上面 部長你真的要好好的徹底 你剛剛提到了 你要徹底聽到第一線老師的聲音 目前整個制度完全亂的跑了 只不過是因為賴總統提出的 而且100億 他完全沒有考慮到 永遠怎麼補永遠怎麼貼是不夠的"},{"start":506.596,"end":506.837,"text":"您同意嗎?"},{"start":514.735,"end":543.555,"text":"應該說我們來努力我們也看到地方政府確實在教師徵是出現了一些我們不希望的一個這個教師徵選的一個方式本來就是部長我跟你說了為了各大學裡面也常常都是這樣的連像教職人員為了配合教育部的這種什麼雙語然後要讓他們的卓越計畫可以寫得很好深耕計畫寫得好還跟你報告所有的這個教職員工說實在的英語畢業都比一般人來得更容易進去為什麼因為他都有英文門檻"},{"start":544.275,"end":558.502,"text":"所以我們英文門檻不是這樣子的要變成雙語國家不是這樣做的啦這個不可能的啦我在國外留學那麼多也不是因為透過這個方法就有辦法讓自己的英文變得很好了部長所以我強力的要求你真的應該開一個有關於雙語政策的國事會議真的好好地聽所有的教育團體第一線的老師到底怎麼樣來看待這件事情"},{"start":565.565,"end":584.193,"text":"這個是你最快時間能夠了解目前英語雙語教育政策最好我還特別給你打包票2030年賴總統的雙語教育絕對沒有辦法達到因為只有6年的時間你有太多事情要補足了最後我想我要就較於你剛剛所提到的大家都會關心陸生來台因為我自己在大學教書我很清楚"},{"start":584.633,"end":589.577,"text":"這個也的確是你在書面報告當中你沒有提到有關陸生的這個部分你剛才已經承認這可能是你們太忙疏失了但我要告訴部長一個數據112年這個陸生學士班已經快接近清零的階段了我們現在從頭到尾加在一起說實在的這個連續四年停招你如果要在明年開放的話我覺得還有一大段路的要走因為整個學士班而且呢"},{"start":613.775,"end":633.96,"text":"目前為止研修生大概只剩下2500人520之後可能會更加的慘烈這可能要拿出非常多的一個策略跟一個方法而且我自己在大學裡面我說實在我看到我的研究生其實來自一些大陸的我根本不管他是來自哪裡可是成果相當的不錯但是我要找他當研究助理想要付獎學金都沒有機會那是因為我們的政策部長你覺得這樣公平嗎"},{"start":637.803,"end":665.635,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們現在是可以擔任學校的也可以領獎學金也可以擔任我是覺得像學校的公讀這些東西我覺得是不要去管目前是被允許的我們有很多地方是跟一般的港澳學生比起來其實陸生他們一些條件上還是會被限縮的這還是有被限縮的我沒有特別幫他們講但是我覺得用人為財學生有意願到台灣來做一個學習應該給他更公平的機會因為我自己說要準時所以我一定要"},{"start":666.015,"end":678.541,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":678.797,"end":682.96,"text":"現在的這個國科會的主委吳承文就是當年清大的副校長他那個時候就完全覺得目前講起來還是覺得委屈啊因為你被抹紅嘛被認為到現在這個寒蟬相應目前為止還是有那目前為止呢一個月來根本不到一個學者他們認為官方卡得很兇我只問最後一句話目前來說的話鄭部長你的態度你會用滲透跟統戰的觀點來看待兩岸的學術交流嗎"},{"start":706.803,"end":709.724,"text":"我們都很清楚學術就在專業上來做一個討論可是現在完完全全變一個非常單純的一個事件只要跟對岸有任何的一個關聯度的話大家就用非常多的不同的方法"},{"start":731.593,"end":732.854,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教我想這個方向是不用質疑的好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b39f82d8c310f6fa26442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9ed8480a73c251d2965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"09:59:47 - 10:09:16","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":569,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:09:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:59:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（9時59分）謝謝主席，有請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["魯委員明哲：部長早，第一次見面。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：因為在你上任之前，看到不管是報章媒體的訪問，也看到你初步的想法，我對你是有非常高的期待，也很多在想法上面，我也給你肯定。第一個、因為兩年前，我一上台就講數發部的時候，就被唐部長指正，他說我們叫數位部不叫數發部，兩年之後，謝謝你，你上任之後，其實我們比較在發展方面要特別講出來，我個人是真的認同，因為如果數位部長期發展把自己當作一個監管單位，或說我自己……如果說數位當然就是我們怎麼樣去管別人、怎麼樣去管理、怎麼樣去研究科技，大概比較著重在這個方面；發展的話，剛剛感覺是煞車啦！我們甚至是需要一個油門，因為這個世界數位經濟發展得不得了，我們如果每天只研究煞車要哪一種煞得最準，不是，那誰帶頭衝啊？其實我們當時覺得我們數發部是有這種概念，那你要不要再講一下你的想法？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我剛剛講就是說其實未來我們國家經濟的發展，我們的機會在數位經濟，所以我剛剛講說數位經濟在發展裡面其實有兩個，一個當然就是我們要興利，另外就要防弊，興利才是我們最重要的目標，所以數發部應該是以興利為目標，但是在這過程中很不幸就是因為有人會利用這樣的數位經濟高速公路在做一些不法的事情，所以我們同時要去防弊，讓我們的數位經濟能夠更正常地發展。所以沒有錯，我上任以後，我特別強調興利這一部分，但是我們知道短期之內，我們必須對目前看到的所謂的問題要做個處理，一個是詐騙，另外一個當然就是資安的個資入侵、攻擊還有竊取個資的問題要先處理，這也是我在上任之後先要處理的問題。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝部長簡要的說明。第一個我們看到不同嘛！第二個不同的話，我覺得你符合我們很多可以講說國民朋友跟我們大部分委員的期待，因為確實我們的數發部是一個新的部會，大家都希望它展現功能，看到功能之後，大家覺得你未來有什麼樣的一些，不管是出國旅費占的比重，大家就比較不會這麼complain，事實上在第二年的時候，我們發覺出國旅費的金額是滿高的，而且可以講說是舉國譁然。我這邊來講，我聽到你的說法，但我是簡單來講就是不是那麼重要，打詐優先，希望把經費移到最重要的一個部分，不是說不出國，你說希望能夠減掉20%，然後因為之前跟唐鳳部長也交流很多次了，他都堅持是每一毛事實上都是很必要的。我看到你們想法不同，但是我是覺得，我看到你的學經歷，我個人是非常佩服，臺大畢業去美國整個留學到博士，然後在美國的企業，包括AT&T，也擔任要職，然後回臺灣之後，事實上有很長的一段時間在政府的不管是數位、科技、資安的領域，所以我覺得產官學你都已經經歷過一遍了，那我覺得科技人講的是第一個，我們就科學，很多東西都有數據化，我們要講得有憑有據，這是我對你的期待。所以你一上任就說要刪掉20%的出國預算，移撥打詐經費，這是正確的嘛！我覺得你要刪掉20%的費用，哪幾次的出國是你覺得……因為我覺得你是科學人嘛，我一上來看了，你不是擲筊，就目前你覺得在今年的預算，你們有出國到日本、出席了哪幾次會議，你覺得是不要的，可不可以說明一下？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，因為今年的預算已經編列了，這個沒辦法去動，我現在主要是針對明年的預算，就是114年的預算，我有整個去檢討，把我們預算拿出來看，也跟各部會去……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你現在也沒有辦法明確說你看到這麼多出國預算，因為我講說就事論事嘛，我們編這麼多的預算，錢是一個問題，每一個錢都注入到一次的出國旅遊，我們希望聽到的是未來，好不好？你回去研究一下啦，總是有幾次它的重要性是A，有些重要性B，有些重要性是C，有些是兩年出國一次的，這個部分我們希望聽到科學人的說法。再來，刪除20%的預算，基礎是什麼？基礎就是今年的出國旅費是多少錢？"],["黃部長彥男：今年是4,000萬，請司長報告。"],["莊司長盈志：謝謝委員給予時間補充說明。今年的預算，本部加兩署是4,400萬，明年的部分是3,300萬，主要減少的部分是有些在國際上的合作，我們希望對方如果可以到臺灣來，我們就儘量邀請對方到臺灣，這樣就可以減少我們一些旅費支出。"],["魯委員明哲：好，您是？"],["莊司長盈志：民主網絡司司長。"],["魯委員明哲：司長，3,300萬一樣嘛！先扣掉，然後回去再補強一下到底哪些旅遊嘛！是不是？"],["莊司長盈志：報告委員，不是。"],["魯委員明哲：你目前已經明確了嗎？明年度。"],["莊司長盈志：明年度的預算已經送院裡面進行審核……"],["魯委員明哲：明年度的已經是3,300萬？"],["莊司長盈志：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我們部長上任沒幾天，還是原來就編3,300萬？你原來就編3,300萬，還是部長上任……"],["莊司長盈志：不是，原本是編4,400萬。"],["魯委員明哲：原本，然後你把它撤回來重送嗎？"],["莊司長盈志：在送出去之前，我們重新再檢討一次，就是有些可以邀請國外……"],["魯委員明哲：什麼時候送出去的？"],["莊司長盈志：上禮拜送出去的。"],["魯委員明哲：這個部分部長應該要知道我們減掉哪些啦，怎麼樣比較清楚。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個我有仔細看過，就是有覺得可以刪的我們就刪這樣。"],["魯委員明哲：好，希望部長也理解一下，因為去年度我們在審今年度的預算，其實總出國的經費不是4,460萬，是5,109萬，經過了我們大家，因為民間覺得這樣不行，我們是刪掉468萬，才有4,460萬，所以當然你從4,460萬往下減，我覺得重點的、精華的A級的會議，我們去參加就好了，其他的部分種子部隊去，回來再教我們，所以我覺得你這個部分我是支持的。我想這次的解凍報告有11項，部長有看嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：看過，但是細節不是很清楚，但是我看過，就是解凍的細節。"],["魯委員明哲：你看過吧？你一上任，大家對你期待很深，你刪除20%的出國預算，可是解凍報告裡面有兩條是你要拜託我們幫你解凍出國預算，那是幹嘛？不是啦！我們說真的，你打詐要立即成效，我真的支持你，所以我今天沒有問，我總要看一下你們的表現，不要一下就說你們不行，可是你今天才講了這件事情，對，明年的我理解嘛！可是你上任有沒有什麼事情可以現在做呢？你現在解凍報告裡面有2項，其中第6點是你們數發部的，其中1,865萬的出國費用，其實只凍結十分之一啦，只凍結186萬，就在今天解凍了，你剛上任，我也不想找麻煩。我建議既然解凍出來，你可能也沒有太瞭解裡面的實質內容，因為有一百多頁，部長不一定有時間可以看，可是你的政策下面在提這個的部分還把它寫得洋洋灑灑的，我覺得不太妥當，我建議就算通過了，這186萬就不要用啦。另外，資安署的929萬，它是整個目去凍結的，就算平均分配到你們那裡面，929萬才4%。你們在提這個報告的時候，我最後講一句話，部長的政策，我也拜託，這邊大部分是公務人員，我相信大家就是把國家的事情做好就好了，可是部長的政策指示，你們在字裡行間很容易讓人家覺得……你知道嗎？因為這部長簽名嘛，是部長拜託大家解凍的，所以你要解凍的總共才沒多少錢，我是希望從今年就開始實現你的承諾，這些才凍結差不多200萬的預算，就算解凍給你，你也暫時匡起來不要用，好不好？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員說明一下，的確因為我們今年跟國外爭取之下，已經有些部分國際的會議願意到臺灣來辦了，所以相關的經費會減下來。"],["魯委員明哲：省下來嘛！好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，魯明哲委員發言完畢。","現在請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.17409375,"end":4.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.015968750000003,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.65971875,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.20784375,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.66346875,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.99909375,"end":137.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.39346875,"end":141.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.13534375,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.42971875,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.43784375,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.80034375,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.86534375000002,"end":218.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.95034375,"end":222.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.76409375,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.63721875000002,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.18534375000002,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.62721875000003,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.15409375000002,"end":240.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.41534375,"end":242.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.96346875,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.45159375000003,"end":252.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.85659375000003,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.84284375000004,"end":261.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.15471875000003,"end":269.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.88346875,"end":298.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.14034375,"end":300.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.38909375000003,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.90784375000004,"end":303.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.11846875000003,"end":307.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.05034375,"end":320.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.40284375000005,"end":332.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.65409375,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.68784375,"end":333.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.59909375,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.66659375,"end":333.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.03784375000004,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.05471875,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.79284375000003,"end":343.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.82534375,"end":345.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.97284375000004,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.72784375000003,"end":346.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.96409375,"end":351.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.14909375,"end":357.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.94971875000005,"end":360.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.05909375000005,"end":360.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.90284375000005,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.41721875,"end":371.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.55534375,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.97284375000004,"end":374.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.68971875,"end":374.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.72346875000005,"end":374.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.74034375,"end":375.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.46596875,"end":376.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.25909375000003,"end":381.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.22034375000004,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.02534375000005,"end":418.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.85159375,"end":421.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.68659375000004,"end":423.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.74534375,"end":423.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.76221875000005,"end":423.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.21784375000004,"end":424.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.23471875,"end":425.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.63534375,"end":426.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.34409375,"end":431.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.64284375000005,"end":431.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.89596875,"end":432.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.03096875,"end":435.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.60846875000004,"end":438.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.88221875000005,"end":443.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.29909375000005,"end":444.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.66596875000005,"end":446.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.72909375,"end":447.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.40409375,"end":455.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.55471875,"end":472.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.15534375000004,"end":475.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.24346875000003,"end":499.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.02034375000005,"end":502.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.33221875000004,"end":504.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.93096875000003,"end":506.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.97284375000004,"end":513.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3134687500001,"end":517.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.93721875,"end":519.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.13534375,"end":520.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.14784375,"end":526.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.63221875,"end":529.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.2097187500001,"end":532.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.2978437500001,"end":537.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.63471875,"end":539.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.40221875,"end":551.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.3915937500001,"end":565.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.2084687500001,"end":566.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.70596875,"end":569.12346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.159,"end":5.901,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們黃部長請黃部長部長早第一次見面好委員長這個因為你在上任之前也看到不管是報章媒體的一個訪問也看到你一個初步的一個想法那我對你是有非常高的一個期待有很多在想法上面我也給你肯定了第一個因為"},{"start":31.832,"end":48.374,"text":"兩年前我一上台就講這個數發布的時候就被唐部長指正他說我們叫數位部不叫數發布兩年之後謝謝你你上任之後其實我們比較在發展方面要特別講出來那我個人是真的認同"},{"start":49.415,"end":74.949,"text":"因為如果數位部長期發展把自己當作一個監管單位或說我自己如果說數位當然就是我們怎麼樣去管別人怎麼樣去管理怎麼樣去研究科技大概比較著重在這個方面那發展的話一個剛剛感覺是煞車啦我們真的是需要一個油門啦因為這個世界數位經濟發展得不得了我們如果每天只研究我們煞車要用哪一種煞車最準"},{"start":75.689,"end":99.686,"text":"那不是啊那誰帶頭衝啊其實我們當時覺得這個我們數發部是有這種概念那你們要再講一下你的想法對我剛講就是說其實未來的我們國家經濟的發展我們的目我們的機會在數位經濟啦那數位經濟所以我剛講說數位經濟在發展裡面其實有兩個一個當然就是我們要新力當然叫房幣那新力才是我們最重要的目標啦所以本"},{"start":100.626,"end":122.871,"text":"數位發展部應該是以新力為目標但是在這個過程中很不幸就是因為有人會利用這樣的一個數位經濟高速公路在做一些不法的事情所以我們同時要去防避讓我們的數位經濟能夠更正常的發展所以沒有錯所以我上任以後我特別強調新力這一部分但是我們知道短期之內我們必須對目前看到的所謂的問題要做個處理一個當然是詐騙"},{"start":124.991,"end":142.125,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":142.225,"end":169.061,"text":"我也覺得你這個符合我們很多可以講說國民朋友跟我們大部分委員的一個期待因為確實因為我們的數位發展部是一個新的部會大家都希望他展現功能看到功能之後大家覺得你未來有什麼樣的一些不管是出國旅費佔的比重那就比較大家不會這麼抱怨事實上在第二年的時候我們發覺出國旅費的金額是蠻高的而且是可以講說舉國化然"},{"start":173.084,"end":198.06,"text":"這邊來講我聽到你的說法但我是簡單來講就是不是那麼重要打詐優先希望把這經費移到最重要的一個部分不是都不出國你說希望能夠減掉20%然後呢因為之前跟唐副部長也交流很多次他說堅持是眉毛事實上都有很很必要的那我看到你們一個想法不同但是我是覺得我看到你的學經理我個人是非常佩服"},{"start":199.02,"end":223.445,"text":"臺大畢業去美國整個留學到博士然後在美國的一個企業包括 AT&T也擔任要職然後回台灣之後事實上有很長的一段時間在政府的不管是數位科技資安的這個領域所以我覺得產官學你都已經經歷過一遍了那我覺得科技人講的是第一個我們就科學很多東西都有數據化"},{"start":224.665,"end":250.911,"text":"我們要講的有拼有據這是我對你的期待所以你一上任就說要刪掉20%的出國預算一波打炸經費這是正確的嘛那我覺得你要刪掉哪20%的費用哪幾次的出國是你覺得因為我覺得你是科學人嘛我一上台看我不是擲筊就目前你覺得在今年的預算裡面有哪出國到日本出了哪幾次會議你覺得是不要的"},{"start":252.512,"end":267.873,"text":"報告委員我現在這個主要是針對因為今年的預算已經編列了這個沒辦法去凍結現在主要針對明年的預算就是說11我們說114年的預算那我有整個去檢討把我們預算拿出來看那也跟各部會去"},{"start":268.854,"end":268.874,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":299.175,"end":299.355,"text":"主管報告"},{"start":308.709,"end":332.319,"text":"謝謝委員可以時間補充說明那今年的預算本部加兩署是4400萬那明年的部分是3300萬那主要減少的部分是有些在國際上的合作那我們希望說對方如果可以到台灣來那我們就盡量邀請對方到台灣那這樣就可以減少我們一些支付支出"},{"start":332.899,"end":352.594,"text":"您是?民主網絡市市長市長那個3300萬是先一樣嘛先扣掉然後再回去再補強一下到底哪些旅遊嘛是不是你目前已經明確了嗎明年度?明年度的預算已經受那個院裡面進行審查明年度的已經是3300萬?是那部長上來沒幾天還是原來就變3300萬?"},{"start":358.158,"end":386.423,"text":"你原來就編3300萬還是部長上任不是原本是編4400萬原本然後你把它撤回來重送嗎在送出去之前我們重新再檢討一次就是有些可以邀請什麼時候送出去的在上個禮拜上禮拜送出去好那你這個部分部長應該要知道我們檢調哪些啦怎麼樣比較清楚報告委員這個是我有這個請就要仔細看過對就是有覺得可以刪了我們就刪掉"},{"start":386.883,"end":395.846,"text":"好那我想希望部長也理解一下齁因為去年度我們在省今年度的預算其實總出國的經費不是4460萬是5109萬那經過了我們大家因為民間覺得說這樣不行嘛我們是刪掉了468萬才有4460萬啦所以當然你從4460萬往下減齁"},{"start":408.85,"end":424.695,"text":"對那我覺得重點的精華的A級的會議我們去參加就好了嘛其他的部分總指部隊去回來再教我們啦所以我覺得你這個部分我是支持的那我想這次的解凍報告解凍報告那個有11項部長有看嗎"},{"start":426.476,"end":427.797,"text":"拜託你們幫我解凍我出國預算"},{"start":444.412,"end":467.303,"text":"為什麼?不是啊!我們說真的你打仗要立即成效我真的支持你啊所以我今天沒有問我總要看一下你們的表現嘛不要一下就說你們不行可是你今天才講的這件事情對!明年的我理解嘛可是你上任有沒有什麼事情可以現在做呢?因為那你現在結論報告裡面有兩項其中第6點是你們速發布的其中1865萬的出國費用"},{"start":473.346,"end":499.454,"text":"其實只凍結十分之一啦只凍結186萬啦就在今天解凍啦你剛上任我也不想找麻煩啦我建議啊既然解凍出來你可能也沒有太了解裡面的實質內容因為有100多頁部長不一定有時間可以看可是你的政策下面在提這個的部分啦還把它寫得洋洋灑灑的我覺得不太妥當啦不太妥當我建議啊就算通過了這186萬你就不要用啦"},{"start":500.234,"end":512.498,"text":"另外我們那個資安署的那個929萬是整個木去凍結的就算你平均分配到你們那裡面929萬才4%啦你們在提這個報告的時候我最後講一句話"},{"start":518.973,"end":539.356,"text":"部長的政策我也拜託這邊大部分是公務人員我相信大家就是把國家的事情做好就好了可是部長的政策只是你們在治理行間很容易你知道嗎讓他覺得說啊變成因為這是部長簽名嘛部長拜託大家解凍了所以你要解凍的總共啊"},{"start":540.677,"end":541.098,"text":"魯明哲委員"}]}},{"id":"152995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3cf43e2664d9ae2f3442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e5b2e05361ecac97e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:48:00 - 09:59:25","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":685,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:59:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:48:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時48分）謝謝主席，請一下黃部長。"],["主席：有請黃部長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長是老實人，第一次上質詢臺不要緊張，部長你好。林沛祥委員剛才已經提到重點，打詐是數位部的工作之一，當然，對於推動服務型的數位政府，以及推動數位產業經濟，甚至是資安，這都是數位部的重要工作項目。當然目前大家都集中在相關詐騙的議題，這也是由於詐騙案件在數位領域的數量逐年上升，成為國家重要的議題，因為它除了造成個人或者是企業的重大損失之外，對於社會的安全跟穩定也造成很大的衝擊，所以我想很多的委員大家都重視打詐，尤其是網路詐欺的這個部分。","我們看到2023年詐騙件數的統計，詐騙的總件數是成長了將近三成，其中最大的部分就是投資詐欺的件數，成長了將近八成，因為這個嚴重的狀況，大家對於數位部的要求跟期待就會越來越高。前五大的詐騙類型包括投資詐欺、解除分期付款的詐欺（ATM），或者是假網路的拍賣（購物）或者是一般購物的詐欺（偽稱買賣），甚至假愛情交友，件數都非常多，現在社會大眾期待數位部的新部長對於打詐有更具體的策略，以及你預期的目標，給你時間簡單說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。我一直強調，我們在這裡面，第一個當然是法的通過，包括電子簽章法跟所謂的打詐專法，應該短期之內會通過，這給我們一些工具對我們監管的業者，像網路平臺、廣告商、電商、第三方支付及遊戲商能夠做進一步地監管跟處理，也可以要求他們配合政府打詐的一些行動跟工作。我剛剛一直強調，我們希望有個很快的打詐服務，能夠提供打詐通報跟查詢，讓民眾可以很快地去查詢現在收到的訊息是不是可能是詐騙，用這個方式，我們也很快地把這個東西分流，讓各部會能夠很快地看到最新的詐騙訊息後就即時處理。當然我們會推動像所謂的短碼跟短網址以及隱碼系統，讓我們能夠瞭解什麼樣的訊息是可信任的，並建立可信任訊息的傳遞方式，讓民眾……"],["李委員昆澤：好，可信任訊息這些相關的建構，你預計在什麼時候之內可以完成初步的建構呢？"],["黃部長彥男：111這樣政府短碼的建構已經推動了，而且目前得到的效果還蠻好的。另外，我也跟其他部會談過，以後像金管會的銀行也會有短碼，然後我們其他部會如果是可信任的商業公司，都應該要申請短碼，這個應該是在短期之內……"],["李委員昆澤：短期是多短？"],["黃部長彥男：目前是期望在年底之前……"],["李委員昆澤：在年底之前，希望趕快推動短碼。防範這種數位詐騙，當然要加強第三方支付的管理，剛才也提到中央政府有反詐四法，即洗錢防制法、科技偵查及保障法、通訊保障及監察法、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例。我們看到劍青檢改，就是由很多檢察官所組成的團體，他們有多次的研討會，也具體地建議要加強第三方支付管理業的管理。其實第三方支付的管理有三大難處：第一、綁定信用卡、手機不用進行本人驗證，第二、區分金流大量的虛擬帳號，第三、第三方支付也不是特許行業，所以登記有高達一萬四千多間，相對金融業管理上是相對鬆散。所以我們要如何去做有效地規範、如何要求業者建立數據庫，或者是要紀錄金流跟交易的紀錄，以及KYC，就是身分確認，要求平臺來做商業確認，要建立聯防平臺來做處理跟規範？數位部有沒有具體的作法，跟目前的進度？說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，第一個第三方支付的部分，剛剛這邊有一個數目，就是我們有一萬多個第三方支付的業者，我們要求他們現在做能量登錄，能量登錄的結果，目前只有53家通過，便於我們管理。這53家裡面，我們也要求它要對申請者進行實名制、KYC的驗證。另外，我們有所謂第三方支付的聯防平臺，給警檢單位能夠做很快的偵查。因為這樣的關係，目前我們看到第三方支付的效果，詐騙就下降很多，這個細節部分是不是請署長做補充？"],["李委員昆澤：來，署長說明一下。"],["呂署長正華：好，謝謝委員給我們補充的機會。剛剛部長提到的就是現在只有53家，要通過我們登錄的部分，銀行那邊才能給它做虛擬帳號，因為已經經過我們檢查也確認了，所以不會有一萬多家，以前在商業司的時候，因為它不是特許行業，所以它就可以在它的營業項目說要做第三方支付，可是有些並沒有來做，所以我們這一陣子就把它建立制度，部長來了之後，也支持我們繼續把這樣的聯防做得更好。","至於打詐專法的部分，在數位經濟那一個專章，針對第三方支付也有相關的條文，所以這個是整體的配套，可以讓第三方支付剛剛委員所提到這些難點的部分，其實在管理上面是有強化的，也謝謝金管會來幫我們，謝謝。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我們還是要進一步地建議，研議建立相關的平臺、販售商家以及廣告人的責任規範，要去做研議，但是這個要非常地謹慎，「捏驚死，放驚飛」，就是說我們對於相關的平臺、販售商家及廣告人的責任規範必須要符合可以實施的基本規範，你太嚴格的話，對於相關的數位或是網路的生態，我想部長也非常清楚，這是必須更謹慎地來做研議跟處理的。","我們也要建立金流異常的示警機制，這個部分請部長說明一下。同一帳戶依照資本額或者是自行申報的使用金額來設置警戒線，或是出現大筆、多筆但大量超出警戒線的異常金流時，或者是系統應該警示提醒第三方支付業者及相關管理人員注意異常的情況，這個數位部有沒有具體的作為？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個建議都很好，我們已經做了一件事情，據我的瞭解，在我上任之前，我們有補助富邦銀行做鷹眼系統，就是在偵測這些金流帳號的異常，經過實施之後，效果很好。所以現在也跟金管會討論，有些類似這樣的系統可以擴散到其他銀行，希望由此去阻擋異常的金流。所以剛剛委員的建議，我們都會再加強跟深化，讓這樣的系統能夠廣布在所有的金融單位。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，現在這種數位或是網路的詐欺，其實新型態的發生是屢見不鮮，這個部分，我們看看美國商業改進局有示警，就是相關新型態的電子郵件詐騙，以AI模擬上司或同事的語氣，寄送偽造電子郵件或語音信息來指示匯款；或是進行語音側錄，我們常常接到詐欺電話，讓你講話，但他都不講話，就是要側錄你相關語音的狀況；或是智慧電視也可能遭到入侵，藉由影音平臺app竊取個資的問題。面對這些新興科技的詐騙，我們該如何強化國際的交流，建立聯訪機制？或是進一步針對這些新興的網路詐欺方式以及手法，我們有沒有進行研究或初步的處理規範？來，說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員，尤其最近，第一個，我們當然跟國際多合作，我想國際合作是一定要的，因為我剛剛有說我們要跟國際交流這樣的情資和各樣的技術，我們自己本身也是在發展一些AI技術，比如說Deepfake的偵測，還有剛剛講的語音假冒的偵測，我們當然也希望自己本身有這樣的能力能夠做一些判讀，並給民眾使用。更重要的是，我們以後聽到電話或是看到語音時，因為有這樣的AI技術，其實都不能夠輕易地相信，那怎麼做呢？就有人建議，比如說要有通關密碼，有些東西你要確認講話的真的是本人，這個可能也要跟民眾做這樣的教育。基本上我想在這個時代，的確我們對很多東西都要帶著一點懷疑，要用各式各樣技術的方法、用我們所謂比較警覺的一些個人的方法，去判斷今天跟你講話的人是不是真人或者是AI。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，你剛才提到相關的識詐或是相關詐騙訊息的判讀，這些其實是比較輔助性的、對於民眾推廣的作法而已，政府、尤其是數位部，必須針對相關的防詐，不管是法令、政策以及具體的作為，這才是主要推動的目標，以上提醒。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（李委員昆澤）：謝謝。","現在請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":4.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.98659375,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.324093750000003,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.62784375,"end":80.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.30534375,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.03034375,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.51096875,"end":88.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.84409375,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.77034375,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.93846875,"end":197.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.31659375,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.13409375,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.20971875,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.78346875000003,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.39909375000002,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.18784375,"end":239.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.02721875,"end":249.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.05534375000002,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.13971875000001,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.58596875,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.25159375000004,"end":300.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.35096875,"end":321.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.36034375,"end":326.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.10659375,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.00034375,"end":334.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.96596875,"end":364.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.90221875000003,"end":366.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.64034375,"end":366.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.70784375000005,"end":391.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.61534375,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.51846875,"end":420.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":488.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.76471875000004,"end":527.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.79659375,"end":532.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.65659375,"end":534.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.93034375,"end":541.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.95471875,"end":542.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.94596875,"end":578.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.9109687499999,"end":591.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.1072187500001,"end":597.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.94596875,"end":599.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.4309687500001,"end":626.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.3803437500001,"end":626.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.9878437500001,"end":656.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.97909375,"end":682.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.99596875,"end":683.6372187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.77,"end":6.252,"text":"謝謝主席請一下黃部長有請黃部長部長您好當然林佩祥委員剛才已經提到重點打詐是數位部的一個工作之一當然啦對於推動"},{"start":26.683,"end":42.339,"text":"護行的這樣的一個數位政府以及推動數位產業經濟甚至是資安這都是數位部的一個重要的工作項目當然目前大家都集中在於相關的詐騙的這樣的一個議題這也是對於詐騙在數位領域"},{"start":48.024,"end":73.115,"text":"的這樣一個案件竹簾上升成為國家重要的一體因為他造成個人或是企業的重大損失之外對於社會的安全跟穩定其實也造成很大的衝擊所以我想很多的委員大家都重視相關的對於打詐尤其是網路詐欺的這個部分那其實我們看到2023年的詐騙建樹的一個統計"},{"start":76.476,"end":88.217,"text":"﹚"},{"start":89.139,"end":116.652,"text":"嚴重的狀況大家對於數位部的要求跟期待就會越來越高那相關的前五大的詐騙類型包括投資詐欺解除分歧的這種付款的詐欺ATM或者是這種假網路的拍賣購物或者是一般購物的詐欺就是偽稱買賣這個部分甚至假愛情交友"},{"start":117.372,"end":130.077,"text":"都建樹的也都非常的多那我們現在社會大眾對於數位部新的部長我們期待你對於打造有更具體的策略以及你預期的目標給你時間簡單說明一下"},{"start":133.999,"end":158.901,"text":"謝謝委員我一直強調就是說我們在這裡面第一個當然是法的通過電子簽商法跟這個所謂打造裝法大概應該短期之內通過這給我們一些工具對這個一些我們尊管的業者像網路平台廣告商、電商、第三方制服還有遊戲商能夠做進一步的監管跟處理也可以要求他們配合我們打造的政府的打造的一些行動跟工作"},{"start":159.361,"end":181.33,"text":"那當然在我剛一直強調說我們希望有個很快的一個打造一個服務我能夠提供這個打造通報跟查詢那民眾可以很快的去查詢我現在收到訊息是不是可能詐騙那用這個方式我們很快把這個東西再分流然後讓這個各個部位能夠很快看到最新的詐騙的方的一些訊息能夠就即時的處理"},{"start":182.23,"end":205.441,"text":"那當然我們會推動像這個所謂的短碼跟簡碼的這樣的短碼跟短網子還有這個所謂的銀碼的系統來讓我們能夠瞭解什麼樣的訊息是可信任就建立可信任訊息的傳遞的方式而讓我們民眾可信任的這個訊息的這些相關的建構你預計在什麼時候之內可以完成初步的建構呢"},{"start":206.201,"end":234.658,"text":"對,111這樣的一個建構已經推動而且我們目前得到的效果還蠻好的就是政府的這個端碼那另外就是說關於這個我也跟其他部會談過像這個以後的像金管會的銀行也會有端碼然後我們的這個其他部會如果是一個可信任的商業的公司都應該要申請端碼這個應該是在短期之內短期是多短期這個目前是期望在年底之前大概在年底之前對"},{"start":235.558,"end":254.803,"text":"希望趕快的推動當然防患這種數位的詐騙當然要加強第三方的這種支付的管理剛才提到中央政府有反詐釋法洗錢防治法科技偵查及保障法通訊保障及監察法還有"},{"start":255.723,"end":282.465,"text":"打擊犯罪的危害防制條例那我們看到建清檢改就是由很多的檢察官所組成的這個團體他們有多次的研討會也具體的建議要加強第三方支付管理業的這些管理那當然第三方的支付管理其實有三大難處第一個綁定信用卡手機不用進行本人的驗證第二"},{"start":283.946,"end":286.147,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管．"},{"start":301.431,"end":321.046,"text":"我們如何去做有效的這些規範如何要求業者建立數據庫或者是要記錄金流跟交易的這些記錄以及KYC就是身份確認要求平台來做商業的確認要建立聯訪的平台來做處理跟規範"},{"start":322.647,"end":347.321,"text":"數位部有沒有具體的做法跟目前的進度來說明一下?報告委員第一個就是說第三方剛剛這邊有一個數目就是我們有一萬多個第三方支付的業者那我們要求他們現在做能量登錄那能量登錄結果現在只有目前只有53家通過那便於我們管理那在這53家裡面我們也要求他對這個申請的人要進行所謂的使名字KYC的驗證"},{"start":348.302,"end":349.323,"text":"數位發展部部長黃彥男列席"},{"start":367.156,"end":390.652,"text":"謝謝委員給我們補充的機會就是剛剛部長提到的就是現在只有53家那通過我們登錄的部分呢那銀行那邊才能給他做虛擬賬號那虛擬賬號因為這個經過我們檢查也確認了所以不會有一萬多家的因為那個以前在商業司的時候因為他不是特許行業所以他就可以在他的營業項目說要做第三方支付可是有些並沒有來做"},{"start":391.733,"end":408.571,"text":"那所以我們就這一陣子將把它建立制度那部長來之後也來支持我們繼續把這樣的聯訪做得更好那打詐專法的部分在我們數位經濟那一個專章針對第三項支付也有相關的條文那所以這個是整體的配套"},{"start":408.891,"end":423.793,"text":"那可以讓第三方支付剛剛的委員所提到這些難點的部分那其實在管理上面是有強化那也謝謝金管會來幫我們謝謝好我們還是要進一步的建立就是說嚴厲建立相關的平台"},{"start":424.394,"end":427.855,"text":"午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午午"},{"start":449.502,"end":478.336,"text":"的數位或是網路的這樣的一個生態我想部長也非常清楚這個是一個必須更謹慎的去來做研議跟處理那我們也要建立金流異常的這種市井的機制這個部分部長說明一下我們同意賬戶依照資本額或者是自行申報的使用金額來設置警戒線或是出現大筆多筆但是大量超出警戒線的異常金流時"},{"start":479.156,"end":503.701,"text":"或者是系統應該警示提醒第三方支付業者及相關管理人員注意異常的情況這個數位部有沒有具體的一個作為?包括個委員這個建議都很好那我們已經做一件事情就是我的了解在我上任之前我們有補助向富邦銀行做鷹眼系統那就是在偵測這些數位金流的帳號的異常"},{"start":504.801,"end":526.647,"text":"那經過實施之後效果很好所以現在就是說也跟金管會討論就是說有些類似這樣的系統可以擴散到其他銀行希望從金流去阻擋這個異常的金流所以剛剛委員這邊的建議我們都會再加強跟深化去讓這樣的系統能夠廣佈在所有的金融單位"},{"start":527.887,"end":542.153,"text":"部長現在這種數位或是網路的詐欺他的新型態的這樣的一個發聲其實是屢見不鮮那這個部分我們看看這個美國商業"},{"start":544.008,"end":559.729,"text":"商業改進局他有示警就是說相關的新型態的電子郵件的詐騙以AI模擬上司或同事的語氣寄送偽造電子郵件或者是語音信息來指示匯款或是進行語音測錄"},{"start":561.271,"end":591.271,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":592.151,"end":620.92,"text":"以及手法我們有沒有進行研究或初步的這樣的一個處理的規範來說明一下謝謝委員那個尤其最近在第一個我們當然跟國際的多合作啦我想國際這個合作一定要因為我們剛剛講說我們要跟國際交流這樣的情資各樣的技術那我們自己本身也有也是在發展一些AI技術比如說像DFAQ的偵測我們還有就是剛剛講的語音的這種假冒的偵測我們當然也希望自己本身有這樣能力能夠做一些判讀那給民眾使用"},{"start":621.32,"end":648.895,"text":"那更重要是現在就是說我們以後聽到電話或是看到語音因為有這種這樣的AI技術其實都不能夠輕易的相信那怎麼做呢就會有人建議比如說要通關密碼有些東西你要確認講話的真的是本人那這個可能也要跟民眾做這樣的教育就是基本上我想在這個時代的確我們對很多東西都要帶著一點懷疑那用各式各樣用技術方法用我們指揮的這個"},{"start":650.035,"end":650.155,"text":"議員：李昆澤"},{"start":673.402,"end":682.959,"text":"必須針對相關的防詐不管是法令、政策以及具體的作為這才是主要的一個推動的目標以上一個提醒謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3ca9db73c4ca685fa442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9eebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:40:10 - 09:47:52","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":462,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:47:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:40:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":216,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時40分）主席，有請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["林委員沛祥：部長。"],["黃部長彥男：你好，委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：歡迎來到政治界，您現在進入是2024年，這是個任重道遠的世界。最現實的就是現在我們看到所有民眾關心的，不只是國家關心的，甚至全球關心的，都是您的業務。請看一下2024年全球十大風險，兩年之內直接與數位發展部有關的就有一跟四：假訊息及不安全的網路世界。十年之內全球關心的裡面就有三項跟數發部有絕對的關係：錯誤訊息、AI技術的不良後果跟不安全的網路世界，甚至社會的極端化都有關係。而最現實是今年，今年五大大家最關心的風險中有兩個，一個是AI，一個是網路攻擊。所以本席認為您在這上面來講，如果講AI內閣的話，其實數位發展部的責任非常的重，因為我們想到AI，我們不會想到行政院，我們不會想到其他的法務部、內政部，我們只會想到那數位發展部做了些什麼。","剛剛林國成委員講得很好，那本書如果都是照以前唐鳳部長留下來的話，那會讓我們國人非常地失望，因為我如果記得沒有錯的話，在所謂的打詐國家隊，基本上我對國家隊這三個字都是充滿失望，從頭到尾我沒有聽到國家隊真的對我們民眾特別有感，打詐國家隊三大戰犯是數位發展部、NCC、金管會。","我們先直接從打詐開始講起，這是我們知道、全國人民認為的事情，就是詐騙訊息接收的經驗，加起來不多，87.9%將近88%，也就是如果直接換算成全國人民的話，我們將近2,300萬人裡面有2,100萬人收到詐騙訊息，請問部長您怎麼看這個現象？"],["黃部長彥男：詐騙管道很多啦！我剛剛說我們詐騙通常是所謂的訊息流，當然有從電話、有從網路，完全的杜絕是不可能，但是報告委員，我覺得一個作法就是我們打詐的方法裡面有個叫識詐，判別收到的訊息是詐騙，從源頭去讓民眾瞭解可能是詐騙。當然，我剛剛說打詐查詢網、通報網可以幫忙……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我完全認同你講的話，但是我也必須幫您開脫一句話，這句話我希望您帶給行政院，因為打詐也好，有關避免我剛剛所講的所有風險也好，由數位發展部一個部來處理所有的事情，你的預算不見得比人家高，但是你要負責的東西比人家重得多，而全國民眾看到的都是你，他們甚至不會把NCC放在第一線，全部都是數位發展部該做什麼，既然你是科技部、數位發展部，如果做不到就是你的問題。因為所有人都只看懶人包，所有人都只看標題式的新聞，如果有什麼地方做不好，科技詐騙出來、LINE詐騙出來、FB詐騙出來、名人詐騙出來，第一個想到的是數位發展部，他們不會想到NCC，他們不會想到金管會，他們不會想到內政部，對吧？"],["黃部長彥男：我剛剛跟委員報告，打詐的工作是跨部會的整合，要有效果一定是資訊流、人流跟金流要一起合作，我們在資訊流儘量去阻擋，但如同我剛剛講的，因為資訊流的管道太多，不可能完全擋得住，所以最重要還是在教導民眾識詐，識詐就有所謂我剛剛講的打詐通報查詢網，讓民眾增加識詐的能力，even民眾收到假訊息，也知道這個是假的，就比較不會進入金流那一段的詐騙。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，請你看我後面的PowerPoint，這才是本席覺得最悲哀、最可惜的地方，我們居然有43%的民眾被詐騙之後是自認理虧，現在不管說是深偽技術（Deepfake），還是所有AI生成的工具，還是生成式AI的所有東西，我們上次看到葛如鈞委員去質詢前行政院長陳建仁的時候，陳建仁陳院長不會覺得這個是個幽默感，而是直接大發雷霆，因為他覺得他被騙了，可是他被騙了之後，他還有人可以去抱怨，因為他知道誰在騙他，他知道誰在開這個玩笑，但是對一般的人來說，有什麼人可以去幫忙這件事情呢？他們向警政機關求助、向反詐騙相關單位求助，但是最多的時候是，算了！剛剛前一頁我們看到他們被詐騙的金額都落在1萬到5萬，甚至再來第二高是10萬以上，我如果沒有記錯的話，去年被詐騙的金額好像占我們全國GDP將近3%，這實在是件駭人聽聞的事情，對吧？"],["黃部長彥男：同意，不過我跟委員報告，你這邊列的是被騙，但是事實上我們希望減少的是被騙，也就是說詐騙訊息的數目不會減少，但是我們希望被騙的人少很多，為什麼被騙的人可以少很多？就是我們運用一些科技技術，比如說AI技術，因為剛剛講到的打詐查詢網跟通報查詢網，希望被騙的人能夠大量減少，這是我們一開始能夠做的最主要工作，也是希望在短期之內數發部推出的一些措施，能夠讓民眾知道怎麼樣去查詢，減少被騙的機會跟次數，這是我們希望的目標，也就是騙人的訊息可能不會減少，可是被騙的次數一定會減少。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，其實數位發展部裡面最重要的業務好像不是打詐，而是所謂的民主網路跟其他數位……"],["黃部長彥男：數位經濟的發展。"],["林委員沛祥：我剛剛讀過你們的整個預算，我對你們後來凍結的預算還有其他的意見，不過因為時間的關係，我想提醒部長一件蠻重要的事，也就是剛剛召委特地提過的事，我比較希望我看到未來的每一位部長在所謂接地氣或言語上面的用詞要相當的精準，因為一個言語上面的用詞不精準的話，會讓人家誤解您對這份工作是不是不夠尊重，當我們聽到一些接地氣的語言的時候，我就不再贅述接地氣的語言是什麼，我們希望是down to earth，不是單單純純的slang。If you just keep talking about slang，you are dishonoring your job and you are disgraced for the entire country。我知道部長是產官學的高手，我知道部長是有國外經驗的CEO，所以請您好好做好您特地從業界轉來CEO的職責，以上。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席（徐委員富癸代）：謝謝林沛祥委員的發言。","下一位我們請李昆澤召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.35471875,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.28096875,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.91784375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.238468750000003,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.38471875,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.21659375,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.41721875,"end":68.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.49284375,"end":74.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.25971875,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.05784375,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.32034375,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.42534375000001,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.77034375,"end":152.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.07471875000002,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.44596875000002,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.46284375000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":153.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.91409375,"end":153.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.93096875,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.85846875000001,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.85034375,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.39846875,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.78596875000002,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.28034375000001,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.97221875000002,"end":215.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.36846875,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.49034375000002,"end":231.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.38721875000002,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":231.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.67409375000003,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.47846875,"end":282.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.52909375,"end":269.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.70409375,"end":304.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.28721875,"end":337.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.26096875,"end":337.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.90221875000003,"end":339.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.43784375,"end":341.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.73284375000003,"end":383.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.27909375,"end":388.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.29096875000005,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.32471875000005,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.96471875000003,"end":398.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.95409375,"end":419.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.16784375000003,"end":430.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.66409375,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.11846875000003,"end":440.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.12659375000004,"end":441.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.59909375,"end":459.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.79471875,"end":460.61721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.406,"end":8.768,"text":"主席,有請黃部長。請黃部長。部長。"},{"start":22.943,"end":39.169,"text":"歡迎來到這個政治界那這個是一個您的您現在進入是2024年這是個任重道遠的世界這現實就是說我們現在看到的所有民眾關心的全部不只是國家關心甚至全球關心的都是您的業務"},{"start":40.289,"end":64.298,"text":"請看一下這邊全球2024年十大風險兩年之內有關直接有關數位發展部的就有一跟四假訊息跟不安全的網路世界十年之內全球關心的裡面就有三項跟我們這個速發部有絕對的關係錯誤訊息AI不良技術跟不安全的網路世界甚至社會的極端化都有關係下一頁"},{"start":66.462,"end":94.972,"text":"而最現實是今年今年五大大家最關心的風險裡面有兩個一個是AI一個是網路攻擊所以說本席認為您在這上面來講你其實說AI內閣倒不如如果講這是AI內閣的話其實您數位發展部的責任非常的重因為我們想到AI我們不會想到行政院我們不會想到其他是法務部內政部我們只會想到讓我們數位發展部做了些什麼"},{"start":95.932,"end":121.133,"text":"剛剛林國生委員講的很好那本書如果都是照以前唐鳳部長留下來的話那會讓我們國人非常的失望因為我如果記得沒有錯的話在這個所謂的打架打炸國家隊基本上我對國家隊這三個字都是充滿失望從頭到尾我沒有聽到國家隊真的對我們民眾特別有感打炸國家隊三大戰犯裡面數位發展部NCC金管會"},{"start":122.469,"end":127.547,"text":"那我會認為說這就是上面來講我們先直接從打詐開始講解好了下一頁"},{"start":128.943,"end":146.979,"text":"這是我們知道全國人民認為的事情也就是詐騙訊息接受的經驗加起來不多87.9%比87%好一點將近88%也就是如果直接換算成全國人民的話我們將近2300萬人裡面有2100萬人收到詐騙訊息請問部長您怎麼看這個現象那個"},{"start":154.005,"end":154.185,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":185.246,"end":212.524,"text":"我完全認同你講的話但是我也必須幫您開脫一句話這句話我希望您帶給行政院因為打詐也好有關避免我剛剛講的所有風險來好你數位發展部一個部來處理所有的事情你預算不見得比人家高但是你要負責的東西比人家重得多而全國民眾看到的都是你他們甚至不會把NCC放在第一線全部都是數位發展部該做什麼數位發展部既然你是科技部數位發展部但是如果做不到就是你的問題"},{"start":213.345,"end":231.117,"text":"因為所有人都只看懶人包所有人都只看標題式標題式的新聞如果有什麼地方做不好打詐詐騙科技詐騙出來賴詐騙出來FB詐騙出來明年詐騙出來第一個想到數位發展部他們不會想到NCC他們不會想到金管會他們不會想到內政部對吧"},{"start":232.478,"end":251.269,"text":"我剛剛就委員報告就是說這個打詐的這個工作是這是跨部會的整合要有效果一定是資訊流人流跟金流要一起合作那當然這裡面我們在資訊流我們盡量去阻擋那當然我就剛講因為資訊流管道太多不可能完全擋得住所以最重要還是在教導民眾試詐"},{"start":252.35,"end":281.51,"text":"那事詐就有所謂的我剛剛講的打詐呼這樣查詢網就通報查詢網就是讓民眾去增加事詐的能力能夠希望能夠民眾減少因為你收到假訊息你也知道說這個是假的你就比較不會進入所謂金流那一段的詐騙部長這就是再下一頁部長這就是講你請看這個我後面powerpoint這才是最我覺得本席覺得最悲哀最可惜的地方我們居然有43%的民眾如果被詐騙了之後居然是自認理虧耶"},{"start":282.75,"end":294.661,"text":"那現在不管說是生物技術deepfake還是所有AI生成的工具還是生成式AI的所有東西導致說我們上次看到我們葛如軍委員去質詢前行政院長陳建仁的時候"},{"start":298.764,"end":324.057,"text":"陳建仁陳院長不會覺得這個不會是個幽默感而是直接的大發雷霆因為他覺得他被騙了可是他被騙了之後呢他還有人可以去抱怨因為他知道誰在騙他他知道誰在開這個玩笑但是一般的人有什麼人可以他有什麼人可以去幫忙這件事情呢他們向警政機關求助向反詐騙相關單位求助但是最多的時候啊算了"},{"start":324.377,"end":339.428,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":339.528,"end":356.01,"text":"害人聽聞的事情對吧?對,同意不過跟委員報告我剛剛講就是說我們其實你這邊列的是被騙但是事實上我們希望減少是被騙也就是說詐騙的數目就是說詐騙訊息數目不會減少但是我們希望被騙的少很多"},{"start":356.491,"end":381.798,"text":"那為什麼可以被騙少很多就是我們用一些科技技術比如AI技術剛剛講用我們這個打造查詢網跟這個通報查詢網希望被騙能夠大量減少這是我們一開始能夠做的最主要工作也是希望在短期之內能夠看到的這個我們書發部的一些措施能夠讓民眾知道什麼樣去查詢然後減少被騙的機會跟次數這是我們希望的目標"},{"start":382.398,"end":409.88,"text":"被騙人的訊息可能不會減少可是被騙的次數一定會減少部長其實我剛剛其實您這個數位發展部裡面最重要的業務好像不是打雜而是所謂的民主網路跟所謂其他的這個數位經濟的發展但是這方面前面我當然讀過你們的整個預算我對你們後來凍結預算我還有其他的意見不過因為時間的關係我想提醒部長一件蠻重要的事也就是剛剛昭偉特地提過的事"},{"start":411.321,"end":440.094,"text":"我比較希望說我再看到未來的每一位部長上面來講所謂接地氣或言語上面的用詞要相當的精準因為每一個言語上面的用詞不精準的話會讓人家誤解說您是否對這份工作是不是不夠尊重當我們聽到一些接地氣的語言的時候我就不再最初接地氣語言是寫什麼我們希望是down to earth不是單單純純的slang"},{"start":441.81,"end":448.532,"text":"我希望這句話,我知道部長是長官學的高手我知道部長是有國外經驗的CEO所以請您好好做好您特地從業界轉來CEO的職責以上"}]}},{"id":"152993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3846f913a1136addbfcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e286f51d77010decd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:55:04 - 10:06:33","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":689,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T10:06:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:55:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":252,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時55分）有請徐次長及司法院李廳長。"],["主席：請次長及廳長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：在問到兒少的問題之前，我還是想就最近國人最關注的國會改革議題來就教兩位，我想先請問次長，你會在國會說謊嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不會。"],["羅委員智強：不會嘛，對不對？那你知道在國會說謊，在美國最高會被處以多久的刑罰？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：一個月以上十二個月以下。","那你知道在英國，說謊的官員最高會被處多重的刑罰？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：法務部作為一個法制研究單位，如果連立法院都已經做出這個分析研究的話，我覺得法務部還是要做一點研究，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：因為這涉及世界法制，這也是法務部應該要關切的事，法務部算是政府的法律守門人，所以基本上對於各國的法制還是要有所瞭解，這部分請次長傳達到部裡面，針對各國法制還是要做一點功夫研究。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我告訴你，英國對於說謊官員最高是關兩年你知道法國最高是關幾年嗎？法國也是最高關兩年。然後你知道日本最重是關幾年嗎？如果是無正當理由拒絕出席宣誓作證是一年以下，但說謊是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：三個月以上十年以下。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，今天法務部就有進入狀況，最高是關十年。那你知道我們目前已經準備要審查通過有關於說謊官員的處罰，新的國會改革版本在我們國家你知道對於說謊官員最高是處多重的刑罰嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：一年。"],["羅委員智強：一年嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：那你覺得一年重還是十年重？"],["徐次長錫祥：我尊重大院……"],["羅委員智強：這是數學問題，我不是問你價值判斷，一年重還是十年重？"],["徐次長錫祥：當然是十年重。"],["羅委員智強：當然是十年重嘛！請問一年重還是三年重？"],["徐次長錫祥：當然是三年重。"],["羅委員智強：一年重還是二年重？"],["徐次長錫祥：二年重啊！"],["羅委員智強：那你比較起來，針對我剛剛講的美國、英國、法國、日本，加上臺灣最新要通過的，哪一個版本對說謊官員刑責是最輕的？"],["徐次長錫祥：這幾個國家……"],["羅委員智強：對，這五個。"],["徐次長錫祥：當然是臺灣。"],["羅委員智強：當然是臺灣嘛！非常謝謝次長，這是我要跟大家釐清的第一件事。另外，次長你知道嗎？我剛剛講的這幾個國家，他們所謂的違反聽證調查只處罰官員嗎？這些刑罰只處罰官員嗎？人民有沒有處罰？你可以請教幕僚有沒有處罰？也有處罰嘛！你的幕僚在點頭……"],["徐次長錫祥：部分有……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你都有！包括美國、英國、法國、日本，如果傳喚證人到國會來，不管你是官員還是人民，這些處罰規定都是一體適用的。那你知道我們最新的國會改革版本，在我剛剛所講的刑事罰部分，請問有沒有處罰人民？"],["徐次長錫祥：目前是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請問，對人民有處刑事罰跟沒處刑事罰，誰比較重？"],["徐次長錫祥：有處罰的當然比較重。"],["羅委員智強：有處罰的比較重嘛，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以我跟各位講，我為什麼要藉由這個機會，透過專業的法務部來釐清一些概念？第一個，我們現在正要審的國會改革版本裡面，對說謊官員的處罰是這些國家裡面最低的。第二個，對於人民的部分，其他國家連刑罰都有，但是臺灣，我們現在最新的部分是只有行政罰而沒有刑罰。","我想再請教一下，你知道1993年民進黨其實也推出過國會改革版本，他們裡面的規定是對人民最高可以處七年以下有期徒刑，是對人民喔，不只對官員喔！我想請問，這樣一個處七年以下有期徒刑的版本，它的罰則對人民比較重，還是今天國民黨、民眾黨的版本人民沒有刑事處罰比較重？哪一個比較重？七年以下的比較重，還是沒有刑事處罰的比較重？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，剛才委員講的那個版本，我沒有……"],["羅委員智強：我只是問你數學問題嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：我們針對七年和一年……"],["羅委員智強：七年以下和沒有處罰誰比較重？"],["徐次長錫祥：當然是七年比較重。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！所以我在這邊要告訴民進黨造謠的這群人：第一個，刑罰沒有到人民，而在其他幾個民進黨非常想學的民主國家裡面，對於說謊官員的處罰也是最輕的啦！民進黨過去的版本甚至罰人民要罰到七年，結果今天可以在這邊謠言指控國民黨。今天非常謝謝次長，但我不為難你。","接下來要問到今天我們關切的問題，你知道今年3月媒體才報導一位楊姓男子性侵女網友，警方採集DNA時，發現他涉及三起二十年以前的強盜性侵案，請問次長這時候發現他涉及二十年以前的強盜性侵案該怎麼處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：司法警察會針對這些證據……"],["羅委員智強：你直接告訴我，以你的法律專業來講，這個案子最後會怎麼處理？"],["徐次長錫祥：會分案調查。"],["羅委員智強：分案調查？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，檢方不起訴啦！請問次長，為什麼不起訴？"],["徐次長錫祥：如果是三百三十二條的話，追訴期間有到三十年，如果是時效，應該不是裡面的原因吧！"],["羅委員智強：不是原因嗎？請你回去再查一下好不好？我看媒體報導說檢方最後不起訴啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：有時候是沒有證據或者是……"],["羅委員智強：我再請問一下次長，事實上到目前為止，針對刑事追訴期，你也知道性侵案被告其實他們跟一般的刑事案被告有一個很大的差別，你知道是什麼差別嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：被告是不是？"],["羅委員智強：性侵案的受害者。"],["徐次長錫祥：這是一個隱密性的，而且常常之間都有朋友或親戚的關係，的確被害人是比較弱勢的。"],["羅委員智強：他也比較不太願意告訴別人。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：有些研究，比如說澳洲的研究報告指出，性侵的被害者平均要花23.9年才能告訴他人，並且男性揭發的時間通常比女性更久，平均要花25.6年。換言之，性侵案的受害者其實在法律上的一些狀況跟其他一般刑案受害者是有一些不同的嘛，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：有一些私密性的問題，然後他有一些自我的尊嚴受創的問題，所以他們在處理他們自己內心傷痛的時間是比較久的，這也是為什麼今天我們在討論這個案件，有人針對時效的部分認為是不是應該有區別，這一點我覺得法務部可能也不能把它當作一般的刑案來看待，這個你認同嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們認為就具體的犯罪要特別地來制定一些制度要審慎，我們的態度只有這樣，並沒有反對，我們並沒有反對。"],["羅委員智強：我講審慎同意啦，但是就是因為審慎，可是像性侵的被害者，我剛剛前面已經講了嘛，你也認同跟其他刑案的被害者，他們願意說出來的情況是不相同的，所以換言之，在時效的部分，我覺得應該就是你所講的，在審慎當中可能要考量其差異性，不是嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：有些人被搶被偷可能當場就到警察局報案了，殺人案一發生，當場發現就開始報案偵辦了，只有性侵案可能都要拖個20、30年，被害者才願意講耶！所以這是為什麼今天大家希望法務部重新衡量時效的一個很重要的基礎嘛，因此這一點我希望法務部能夠考量。","另外，最後我要講，實際上我們知道現在臺灣所謂的性交猥褻被害人人數不斷地上升。我舉個例子，你知道去年6歲到11歲性交猥褻的被害人有多少人？2023年6到11歲，我告訴你，390人；12到17歲有多少人？我告訴你，2,037人，你知道警政署從什麼時候開始統計所謂的性交猥褻被害人？哪一年開始統計的？2002年。那我再考你，2002年統計到現在，你知道有史以來最高的紀錄是哪一年？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個跟我們推動……"],["羅委員智強：我知道，你要講說鼓勵大家那個……"],["徐次長錫祥：對，有差。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛。"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：可是我跟你講，就算你開始做很多鼓勵之後，實際上最高的是哪一年？就是去年啊，沒錯吧？","另外，以未成年數來看的話，未成年性交猥褻被害人數在2015年，每萬位未成年有多少人？有5.02人，你知道2023年提高到多少嗎？每萬位有多少未成年性交猥褻的被害人？是7.44人，成長1.48倍。"],["徐次長錫祥：這跟當時的世界運動有關係。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟各位說，我要跟次長說，不管是什麼原因，實際上這些案件數的升高就是法務部要注意的事情，不是嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：因此這是為什麼我們今天才會想到要修法的問題，因為我們看到客觀數字其實是在不斷地飆升跟成長當中，當然我們希望能夠提出一些法制上的修正去改變現狀的問題。所以我覺得你們未必要像過去一般看待性交猥褻被害者的視角跟一般刑案一樣來看待，性交猥褻的被害者在臺灣的案件數不斷升高，是有其案件性質的特殊性，這點希望法務部能夠考慮進去，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：好。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.15159375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.53846875,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.32721875,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.17534375,"end":59.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.165343750000005,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":59.110343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.110343750000006,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.14409375,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.414093750000006,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.68659375,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.09909375000001,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.55034375000001,"end":112.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.21659375,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.85721875,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.43159375000002,"end":139.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.97534375,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.47721875000002,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.30346875,"end":146.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.87721875,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.75471875000002,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.59846875000002,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.43784375,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.45471875,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.55159375000002,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.82971875,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.48596875,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.25784375,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.40534375000001,"end":170.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.40096875,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.66034375,"end":187.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.53721875000002,"end":191.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.81096875,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.71784375000001,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.98784375000002,"end":195.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.22409375,"end":195.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.29159375,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.64596875,"end":196.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.80596875,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.08971875,"end":219.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.50284375,"end":221.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.65846875000003,"end":231.21846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.60221875000002,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.01846875,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.13971875000001,"end":250.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.10159375,"end":265.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.18346875000003,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.97284375000004,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.15846875,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.97221875,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.88346875,"end":298.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.12784375,"end":304.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.59596875,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.58721875000003,"end":306.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.10971875,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.49346875000003,"end":310.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.49284375,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.53034375000004,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.90909375,"end":324.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.90846875,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.33909375,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.75534375,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.02534375000005,"end":360.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.13471875000005,"end":369.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.24784375,"end":372.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.22596875000005,"end":376.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.69346875,"end":378.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.08971875000003,"end":380.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.11409375000005,"end":390.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.42971875,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.26034375,"end":395.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.73284375000003,"end":395.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.76659375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.96909375,"end":399.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":405.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.00971875000005,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.51721875000004,"end":429.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.34346875,"end":437.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.11034375,"end":437.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.14409375,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.96659375,"end":439.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.23659375000005,"end":439.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.25346875,"end":439.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.38846875,"end":439.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.72596875000005,"end":439.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.08034375000005,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.09721875,"end":441.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.86909375000005,"end":449.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.93534375,"end":479.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.98721875,"end":469.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.71971875,"end":492.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.01721875000004,"end":493.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.05096875000004,"end":493.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.35034375000004,"end":503.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.96909375,"end":504.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.00284375,"end":504.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.79596875000004,"end":504.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.96471875000003,"end":529.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.46284375,"end":543.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.27284375,"end":531.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.62534375,"end":549.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.58221875,"end":560.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.8859687500001,"end":549.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.05284375,"end":563.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.1453437499999,"end":565.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.9340937500001,"end":567.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.84096875,"end":573.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.89909375,"end":575.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.41346875,"end":579.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.46346875,"end":590.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.74846875,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.2534687500001,"end":602.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.6540937500001,"end":604.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.3247187500001,"end":607.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.40034375,"end":607.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.80096875,"end":607.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.8178437500001,"end":607.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.8347187500001,"end":607.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.8515937500001,"end":607.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.95284375,"end":614.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.80409375,"end":615.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.90096875,"end":629.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.5359687499999,"end":633.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.1640937500001,"end":635.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.87659375,"end":638.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.71596875,"end":640.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.25159375,"end":642.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.5634687500001,"end":645.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.9172187500001,"end":653.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.5490937500001,"end":687.67034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":15.926,"text":"羅智強委員發言有請徐次長還有司法院的李廳長"},{"start":19.591,"end":46.817,"text":"委員好在問到今天俄哨的問題之前我還是想就最近國人最關注的國會改革議題來就教兩位我想請問次長你會在國會說謊嗎不會不會嘛 對不對那你知道在國會說謊在美國會被處以多久的刑罰最高包委員我不知道"},{"start":48.24,"end":77.64,"text":"一年以上一月以上十二月以下那你知道在英國說謊的官員會被最高處多少的刑法多重的刑法不清楚其實法務部作為一個法治研究單位的話如果說連立法院都已經做出這個分析研究的話就法務部還是要做一點研究啦好不好是對因為這是涉及全世界法治這也是法務部應該要關切的事法務部事實上是這個政府的法律守門人"},{"start":78.68,"end":102.119,"text":"所以基本上對於各國的法制還是要有所了解這個請這個次長傳達部裡面針對各國法制還是要做點功夫研究那我告訴你英國是說謊官員是關兩年啦最高關兩年你知道法國是最高關幾年嗎法國也是最高是關兩年啦然後你知道日本是關幾年"},{"start":104.161,"end":111.98,"text":"日本最重。如果說只是無正當理由拒絕出席宣誓作證是一年以下啦。但說謊是什麼?"},{"start":114.041,"end":135.066,"text":"三個月以上十年以下非常好今天法務部就有進入狀況十年最高關十年那在我們新目前已經準備要來審準備要通過的這個有關於說謊官員的處罰新的國會改革版本在我們國家你知道最高是說謊官員是處多重的刑罰嗎"},{"start":136.482,"end":162.818,"text":"一年那你覺得一年重還是十年重我尊重這是數學問題我不是問你價值判斷一年重還是十年重當然是十年重一年重還是三年重當然三年重一年重還是兩年重兩年重啊那我跟你講那你比下去我剛剛講的美國英國法國日本目前台灣最新要通過的哪一個版本對說謊官員刑責是最輕的"},{"start":167.311,"end":190.707,"text":"這幾個國家對這五個那當台灣嘛對非常謝謝部長所以我要跟大家釐清的第一件事那另外部長次長你知道嗎我剛剛講這幾個國家齁他們的所謂的違反聽證調查只處罰官員嗎這些刑法只處罰官員嗎人民有沒有處罰你可以請教幕僚有沒有處罰"},{"start":192.867,"end":196.528,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人擬具《中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":224.243,"end":248.382,"text":"目前是沒有沒有嘛 對不對 對不對那我想請問對人民有處刑事法跟沒處刑事法誰比較重有處罰的當然有處罰比較重嘛 對不對所以我跟各位講喔第一個為什麼要藉由這個機會透過專業的法務部來釐清一些概念台灣我們現在正在審的國會改革版本裡面對說謊官員處罰是這些國家裡面最低的"},{"start":249.215,"end":265.291,"text":"adequ.對於人民的部分的話其他國家連刑法都有但是台灣我們現在最新的部分是只有行政法是沒有刑法的那我想再請教一下你知道1993年民進黨其實也推出過國會改革版本"},{"start":266.272,"end":293.34,"text":"他們裡面的規定是對於人民對人民最高可以處七年以下有期徒刑人民喔不只官員喔人民喔那我想請問處七年以下有期徒刑的這樣的一個版本它的罰則對人民比較重還是今天國民黨的版本國民眾黨的版本人民沒有刑事處罰哪一個比較重七年以下比較重還是沒有刑事處罰比較重"},{"start":295.011,"end":310.385,"text":"報告委員剛才委員講到那個版本我沒有聽沒有我跟你講我只問你的數學問題嘛我們針對七年啦對我們針對七年七年以下跟沒有處罰誰比較重當然就七年比較重對嘛所以我要告訴這邊民進黨又會造謠這一群人啦"},{"start":311.55,"end":332.055,"text":"第一個刑法沒有到人民啦而在其他幾個主要民進黨非常想學的民主國家裡面說謊官員處罰也是最輕的啦民進黨過去的版本甚至罰人民要罰到七年啦結果今天可以在這邊謠言指控國民黨所以非常謝謝今天部長當然不為難你啊次長不為難你"},{"start":333.215,"end":356.704,"text":"接下來我們要問到今天我們關切的問題你知道今年三月媒體才報導一位陽性男子性侵女網友警方採集DNA時發現他涉及三起二十年以前的強盜性侵案請問這時候發現他涉及二十年以前的強盜性侵案請問怎麼處理"},{"start":359.813,"end":380.506,"text":"市長怎麼處理這個我們那個司法警察會針對這些證據你直接告訴我以你的法律來講這個案子會怎麼處理最後會怎麼處理會分案調查分案調查我告訴你檢方不起訴啦為什麼為什麼不起訴市長為什麼不起訴"},{"start":386.175,"end":404.651,"text":"如果是332的話追訴期間有到30年所以如果是時效應該不是裡面的原因吧不是原因嗎那回去再查一下好不好我看到媒體報導說警方最後不起訴啊不是有時候是沒有證據或者是我再要請問一下我們次長"},{"start":406.252,"end":422.546,"text":"實際上到目前為止針對誰的刑事的追溯期裡面你也知道基本上性侵被告他平均所他性侵案被告其實他們跟一般的刑事案被告有一個很大的差別是什麼你知道什麼差別嗎被告是不是對性侵案的受害者受害者"},{"start":430.567,"end":449.132,"text":"這是一個隱秘性的而且常常之間都有朋友或親戚的關係的確他被害人是比較弱勢的他也比較不太願意告訴別人那有些研究比如說澳洲的研究報告就是性侵的被害者平均要花23.9年才能告訴他人"},{"start":450.012,"end":473.67,"text":"然後男性揭發的時間通常比女性更久要平均要花二十五點六年所以換言之性侵案的受害者他其實在法律上的一些狀況跟其他一般刑案的受害者是有一些不同的嘛對不對他所有一些私密性的問題然後他有一些自己自我的一些所謂的尊嚴受創的問題"},{"start":475.131,"end":491.49,"text":"所以他們在處理他們的自己內心傷痛是時間是比較久的這也是為什麼今天我們在討論這個案件有人在針對時效的部分認為是不是應該有區別這一點我覺得法務部可能也不能把它當作一般的刑案來看待這你認同嗎"},{"start":494.42,"end":500.344,"text":"我講審慎同意啦但是就是因為審慎可是像性侵的被害者我剛前面已經講了嘛你也認同說跟其他刑案的被害者他們願意說出來的情況是不相同的嘛"},{"start":516.716,"end":529.443,"text":"所以換言之在時效的部分的話我覺得應該就是你講審慎當中可能要考量的差異性不是嗎?做調查說要特別要有些人可能被搶被偷可能當場就到警察局幹嘛啦?"},{"start":530.469,"end":530.649,"text":"此外最後我要講齁"},{"start":553.958,"end":575.009,"text":"實際上我們知道現在台灣這個所謂的性交猥褻被害人人數怎麼樣不斷的上升嘛對不對我舉個例子你知道我們去年這個6歲到11歲性交猥褻的被害人有多少人2023年6到11歲我告訴你390人12到17歲多少人"},{"start":580.846,"end":599.803,"text":"二千零三十七人你知道從警政署什麼時候開始統計所謂的性交猥褻被害人哪一年開始統計的?二千零二年那我再考你二千零二年統計到現在你知道哪一年是最高的?有史以來最高紀錄是哪一年?"},{"start":601.294,"end":602.816,"text":"羅智強 羅智強 羅智強"},{"start":615.95,"end":644.763,"text":"另外以所謂未成年數來看的話在2015年這個未成年性交猥褻被害人數2015年每萬位未成年是有多少人是有5.02人你知道2023年提高到多少嗎每萬位有多少未成年性交猥褻的被害人是7.44成長是1.48倍這跟當時的世界運動是有關係我要跟各位說我要跟那個次長說"},{"start":646.94,"end":671.452,"text":"不管是什麼原因,實際上這些案件數的升高就是法務部要注意的事情,不是嗎?是。所以因此這是為什麼我們今天才會想到修法的問題嘛。因為我們看到客觀數字其實是在不斷的飆升跟成長當中。當然我們希望就能夠提出一些法治上能夠去改變這個現狀的問題啊。所以我覺得未必要從你們從過去一般看待"},{"start":672.012,"end":672.953,"text":"則不可提出不復議同意書：羅智強"}]}},{"id":"152992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b31dc8af189ee88e32fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e0a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:39:17 - 09:52:59","影片長度":"00:13:42","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":822,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:52:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:39:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時39分）謝謝主席。有請法務部徐政次。"],["主席：請次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院李廳長。"],["主席：司法院廳長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長好。我剛剛聽了幾位委員的質詢，至於法務部的態度，我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼，可以斷得出來。但問題就是，你看各政黨裡面，每一個政黨，我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂政黨之間的看法問題了，連各政黨裡面的看法都有所不一樣，像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同，不要說跟國民黨的不同，我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的看法。","關於時效問題，本席最擔心的是什麼？大家現在說不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外，次長剛講了一句話我倒非常贊同，如果說完全要實現正義、站在正義的觀點來看的話，任何的犯罪都不應該有時效。時效的概念，如果真的是要把加害者找出來的話，那就是可以讓他躲一時，不能讓他躲一輩子，就變成一種應報的想法。但本席最擔心的是什麼？立法院有立法院的氛圍，整個社會有整個社會的氛圍，整個世界的法學思潮會有不一樣，我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法，就是大家好開心、好開心，大家一致把它通過了，但是造成很多不可彌補的狀況。可是本席要提出來的就是為什麼會變成這樣？其實法務部真的要檢討，司法院也要檢討，因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力、一錘定音，讓社會大眾足以遵循比較權威的見解，現在的氛圍是這樣，臺灣人心是浮動的。我最擔心的是什麼？我最擔心的就是我舉個例子好了，現在桃園劉邦友命案，假設法務部明天跟我說破案了，或者其他幾十年前的案子，你們跟我說破案了，我會被你們嚇死，為什麼？發生在幾十年前的案子沒有辦法破案，在幾十年後，隨著時間流逝、證人死亡，證據一直滅失，反而在幾十年後，你告訴我說真相大白了、兇手抓到了，這也很可怕！本席的看法倒也會覺得非常可怕啦！所以我反而會覺得幾十年後，像這種突然出現的情形，會不會造成更多的冤獄？","當然在整個時效的設計裡面，法務部講的是基於整體法的安定性，這當然是對的，就是整個法的安定性，但今天幾位委員提出來的案子，譬如在探討追訴權時效部分，尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪態樣的追訴，我看到兩種不同的版本，王育敏委員是增訂第八十條之一，將對未成年施以妨害性自主罪者，不應該受第八十條追訴時效的影響，也就是說，性騷擾的追訴權十年，強制性交跟強制猥褻的追訴權時效是二十年，對未成年施以這些行為，以後都不再受到時效限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的平反，感情上的一種平復，都可以理解啦！洪孟楷委員提的是第八十三條，針對未成年施以妨害性自主，可以停止追訴權時效，直到被害人已經成年或者對自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算，這也是一種現在其他國家有的設計，都有，但我們要講的是，針對兒少性犯罪追訴權時效可否延長的問題，當初蔡部長在司法及法制委員會的答復是追訴權是為了法的安定性。這有講等於沒講，大家都知道。接著說，追訴或通緝時就會停止進行，目前並沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效，兒少性犯罪部分可以討論，但時效問題必須整體考量。我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思，次長，你們的看法如何？"],["徐次長錫祥：剛才委員有特別提到，它就是一個政策、一個制度，是針對法安定性的考量，今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來，那其他的呢？是不是其他部分也有機會整個拉出來？如果是這樣，整個時效追訴權的制度會有所動搖，就是沒有一個標準，大概是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當然知道這個意思啦！今天不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題，我是覺得很有價值，但是你說要形成共識，我是覺得非常困難。非常困難的一個原因，就在於我剛剛提到的，所以我也就教很多在場的法律專家，因此才特別提出過去你們部長的講法。本席一直在想的是，從過去極權統治的一些國家，譬如普魯士，我剛剛要到委員會來之前特別去查了，1851年普魯士王國在皇權統治之下，死刑追訴期幾年呢？三十年；十年以上犯行是二十年，也就是說，哪怕我叫做皇帝，這個刑法的設計，基於法安定性的考量，基於整個追訴的成本，就是正義的代價到底會有多少，當皇帝的人，他的刑法設計都有追訴權時效，現在你說站在檢察官立場，或者站在人民想要正義的立場來看，國家就是要摘奸發伏，不管犯人跑到什麼地方去，躲了N年，你就是要給我抓出來，這值得討論啦！我是覺得值得討論，但我看這些提案，主要還是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露，或者自身也不清楚遭遇到什麼，像澳洲皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要花費二十四年才會被揭露，以目前追訴權時效來看，十到二十年確實顯然又不足。","另外，監察院在2021年的報告中提到，就2014到2021年這8年裡，有關性平通報案件，教師對學生的有2,949件，職員工對學生有473件，合計高達3,422件。衛福部通報的性侵害案件被害人有8,401位，其中高達一半以上的被害人是未成年人，這個部分，確實修法委員這樣的提案是有其道理。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我補充一點，剛才委員講到時效是十年到二十年，我們在修法兩次以後，包含刑法第二百二十七條，那個都已經是二十年到三十年，也就是會跨過他的成年，所以不是只有十年，最少都有二十年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我的意思是，司法院跟法務部針對這些法律的修訂，你們要大膽提出疑慮，我相信在司法及法制委員會，只要是涉及到專業，本來就是可以討論的地方，你們也不要被民粹給綁死了，這本來就會有正反意見，如果法務部跟司法院都不敢提出比較權威的見解，或者以各國的看法為例來做一個調和，那我認為你們就是失職。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的，真的，我是比較反對派，看起來是保守，但我是擔心啦！我是擔心啦！召委也是檢察官出身，我相信他一輩子都在摸法律，這些已經討論了幾百年，就像我剛剛提的那個普魯士王國，還有歐洲很多皇權國家，哪怕他們是帝王統治，在刑法上都有時效性的設計，為什麼？沒辦法，國家沒有那麼大的力量，否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪，按照民粹來看，都不應該有時效，不是嗎？之所以會有這樣的設計，就是涉及到整個追訴的成本，甚至於會浮現……這些我都很擔心，這個法律……這樣講，又會被民粹給反撲，也不太好，就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後，會造成更多冤獄、造成更多被害人、造成社會更大亂，因此才會有整個法律體系、法的安定性考量，大家幾百年來考慮結果，最後才會說：好吧！基於法的安定性，給它一個時效的設計，讓社會安定。不是這樣子嗎？再考慮一下，你們應該可以提出更權威的看法，大膽的提出來，我們這裡是政治議題會吵而已，法律專業議題不用擔心，好不好？法務部跟司法院，在這裡要特別鼓勵你們，不要以為我們政黨在這邊攻防就會不理性，我們是涉及到政治議題，大家會比較像動物園，其他不會！好不好？","其次，針對詐欺犯罪的部分，我要特別提醒，相信大家都知道，過去在解決車手、人頭帳戶和洗錢部分，在大家共同努力下，才有今天我們防堵了高達89億詐騙金額這樣的成果，但相對於被詐騙的數量，我們其實需要更多因應詐騙前端的手段，怎麼說呢？雖然小英政府卸任了，但我記得在小英政府最後半年裡，行政院提出了打詐專法來回應國人對詐騙案件的一個立法手段，可是民眾還是不夠滿意，今天很多委員提出加重詐欺罪第三百三十九條之四的版本，在這個基礎上，希望對整個加重詐欺罪可以以更高的刑罰來改善，本席也認為這個立意都是良善，但另外一方面，大家也必須看到，行政院在詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案中，也有相同條文的罪責跟其他配套方案，按照政院版第四十三條詐欺獲取之財物或財產上利益達一千萬元以上者，把第三百三十九條之四的法定刑一年以上七年以下，增加到三年以上十年以下，得併科三千萬元以下罰金；針對冒用公務員名義、境外機房及三人以上共犯加重其刑二分之一，亦即從原本一年以上七年以下，增加到一年六個月以上到十年六個月以下，也擴大了沒收的部分，甚至於將犯罪利得跟所用之物一併沒收，就是提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期，累犯四分之三，還有不得假釋的各種手段等，我為什麼提出這些？就是說你們有時間差啦！為什麼有時間差？這個草案是5月9號才提出來的，而委員的這些提案比你們的提案還要早，所以你們要到各個委員辦公室再去協調。召委，我到現在也沒有聽到法務部來跟我說：我們後面已經提出來了，針對你們前面的這個，我們後面提的比你們還更完備。你們在搞什麼？我看了你們的版本，後面提出來的不輸給我們，可是各立法委員提出的版本是在5月9號以前，所以召委你今天就頭痛了你知道嗎？所以我覺得法務部這樣有點……當然最近政局比較亂，問題在於你們是要修法的人，你們不能這樣子啊！你至少要讓各個辦公室知道啊！你要到羅智強委員辦公室、到翁委員辦公室裡面去講，或者到我辦公室來講說：我們後面已經提出這一些，不輸給你們立法委員，我們的配套更完整了。我沒有聽到你們這樣講，這就可惜了，好不好？要打詐的部分大家都會支持你們啦，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有關時效的部分，我覺得你們論述還不夠，司法院對於這個地方的論述也還不夠，這個是爭執幾百年的問題，不是對錯，而是價值選擇的問題，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝次長，我們休息1分鐘。","休息（9時53分）","繼續開會（9時54分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.68096875,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.262843750000002,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.637843750000002,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.173468750000005,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.16034375,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.04596875,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.44159375,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.70284375,"end":67.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.96971875,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.85096875,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.59596875000001,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.24346875,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.81284375000001,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.47909375,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.33909375,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.63409375,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.72096875000001,"end":134.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.31784375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.12346875,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.00471875,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.19784375,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.84659375,"end":154.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.48346875000001,"end":158.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.72346875000002,"end":161.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.73971875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.71784375000001,"end":168.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.86096875,"end":184.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.65596875,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.14471875,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.61659375000002,"end":195.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.73034375,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.63721875000002,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.86471875,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.23159375,"end":208.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.09534375,"end":216.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.95909375000002,"end":246.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.74346875,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.05659375,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.81534375,"end":297.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.17846875000004,"end":298.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.19534375,"end":299.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.49471875,"end":299.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.82784375,"end":326.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.00534375,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.08534375,"end":327.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.13596875,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.45659375,"end":354.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.42659375,"end":357.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.62471875,"end":359.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.77221875000004,"end":361.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.52284375000005,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.11721875,"end":371.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.88846875,"end":373.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.63909375000003,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.15784375000004,"end":377.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.76096875,"end":378.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.11096875000004,"end":380.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.41034375000004,"end":381.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.87846875,"end":384.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.69221875000005,"end":387.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.91971875,"end":390.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.80534375,"end":391.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.40846875,"end":395.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.88471875000005,"end":398.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.17534375,"end":405.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.52034375000005,"end":411.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.56159375000004,"end":413.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.72159375,"end":414.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.42596875000004,"end":416.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.80971875,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.85159375,"end":444.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.00784375,"end":445.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.17221875,"end":472.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.53096875000006,"end":477.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.54284375000003,"end":479.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.01096875,"end":479.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.90534375000004,"end":494.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.42596875000004,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.02471875000003,"end":499.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.26096875,"end":499.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.27784375000005,"end":499.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.80096875000004,"end":520.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.32409375000003,"end":500.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.88096875,"end":501.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.09596875000005,"end":502.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.42221875,"end":522.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.9028437500001,"end":532.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.0447187500001,"end":534.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.74471875,"end":535.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.5715937500001,"end":540.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.27971875,"end":548.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.24471875,"end":555.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.58971875,"end":557.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.98596875,"end":560.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.6140937499999,"end":566.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.4909687500001,"end":571.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.9922187500001,"end":574.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.2109687500001,"end":576.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.5947187500001,"end":585.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6609687499999,"end":648.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.43471875,"end":629.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.30096875,"end":654.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.60784375,"end":656.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.55284375,"end":668.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.7703437499999,"end":694.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.52159375,"end":734.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.59971875,"end":737.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.3715937500001,"end":736.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.8059687500001,"end":743.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.16784375,"end":764.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.83971875,"end":765.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.54409375,"end":773.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.9309687500001,"end":799.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.87221875,"end":800.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.10409375,"end":810.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.6340937500001,"end":816.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":816.5615937500002,"end":819.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.8015937500002,"end":821.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":820.15596875,"end":821.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.5903437500001,"end":821.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.97846875,"end":822.9740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.07,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部徐政次請次長司法院我們李廳長司法院廳長委員好次長好我想我剛聽了"},{"start":28.791,"end":44.522,"text":"我們幾位委員的一個質詢,看華富的態度我幾乎可以看得出來你們的態度到底是什麼,可以斷得出來。但問題就是說,你看各個政黨裡面,每一個政黨"},{"start":47.879,"end":69.945,"text":"這一條我們今天這個修法時效已經不是所謂的政黨之間的看法的問題了。連各政黨裡面看法都有所不一樣。像我的看法就跟我其他的同事看法會不同。不要說跟國民黨的不同。我相信國民黨裡面也會有不一樣的一個看法。時效本席最擔心的就是什麼?大家現在在講說"},{"start":72.726,"end":101.321,"text":"不能讓這些加害者逍遙法外。那次長剛講的一句話我都非常贊同啊。如果說完全要實現正義站在正義的一個觀點來看的話那任何的犯罪都不應該要失效啊。就你跑到你躲的就是失效的概念如果真的是要把這個加害者找出來的話那就是不能讓他躲一時可以讓他躲一時就不能讓他躲一輩子啊。"},{"start":102.52,"end":103.042,"text":"但本期最擔心的是什麼?"},{"start":107.443,"end":133.646,"text":"立法院也立法院的氛圍整個社會有整個社會的氛圍那整個世界的法學的思潮會有不一樣我很擔心到最後變成在動物園裡面立法就大家噢好開心好開心大家一致把它給通過但是造成很多這個不可彌補的一個狀況可是呢本席要提出來的就是說為什麼會變成這樣其實法務部真的要檢討"},{"start":135.416,"end":161.136,"text":"司法院也要檢討因為你們沒有辦法提出一個鏗鏘有力一錘定音讓世衛大眾足以遵循就是比較權威的一個見解現在的氛圍是這樣台灣人心是浮動的你像比如說我最擔心的是什麼呢我最擔心的就是說我舉個例子好了你說現在桃園的劉邦有的命案假設你們法務部跟我說明年跟我說破案了"},{"start":162.776,"end":184.566,"text":"或者其他這幾十年前的案子你們跟我說破案啦我會被你們嚇死為什麼發生在幾十年前沒有辦法破案在幾十年後證據一直蔑視時間的流逝證人的死亡反而是幾十年後你們告訴我說真相大白了兇手抓到了這也很可怕"},{"start":185.854,"end":188.999,"text":"這也會本席我的看法我倒也會覺得非常可怕那時候我反而會覺得說幾十年後"},{"start":194.653,"end":195.233,"text":"則不予審查 ．則不予審查 ．"},{"start":217.069,"end":238.997,"text":"追溯權時效尤其是針對兒少侵害跟性犯罪的太陽裡面的一個追溯我就看到兩種不同的版本王玉敏王委員是政令八十條之一將對未成年施以妨礙性自主罪不應該受到八十條追溯時效的一個影響也就是說性騷擾的追溯權十年強制性交跟強制尾稅的追溯權時效都是二十年"},{"start":240.097,"end":266.673,"text":"這對未成年失語這些行為以後都不再受到時效的一個限制。這當然也是一種對被害者的一種平反感情上的一種平復都可以理解啦。我孟凱委員的是八十三條針對未成年失語妨礙性自主可以停止追溯權時效直到被害人已經成年或者自身被害事實有充分認識以後開始起算。這個也是一種現在有其他的國家的這樣的一個設計都會有。"},{"start":268.174,"end":271.607,"text":"但我們要講的就是說其實我看過去從蔡部長在"},{"start":272.904,"end":293.591,"text":"社會法治委員會裏面我看到他的答詢是針對兒少性犯罪追溯權時效可否延長當初蔡部長的答覆說追溯權時效是為了法的安定性有講等於沒講這大家都知道的追溯或通緝時候就會停止進行目前沒有針對個別犯罪就停止時效兒少性犯罪部分可以討論但時效問題必須整體考量我到現在還聽不懂這句話的意思啦市長您的看法是什麼"},{"start":300.828,"end":325.797,"text":"因為剛才委員有特別提到他就是一個政策又就是一個制度就是對於法安定性的考量那今天如果針對兒少性侵害的案子特別又拉出來那其他的呢是不是其他的也有機會就整個就拉出來那整個可能整個這一個時效追溯權的這個制度會有動搖就是沒有一個標準"},{"start":328.128,"end":355.98,"text":"我當然知道這個意思啦所以今天我看不同黨派的委員大家在這個地方討論這個議題我是覺得很有他的一個價值啦但是你說要形成共識我是覺得是非常困難非常困難的一個原因就在於我剛所提到的啊所以我也救教很多的一個在場的一些法律的一個專家所以特別才會提出說你們過去的部長的講法是如此嘛那我本席一直在想的就是說"},{"start":360.8,"end":384.355,"text":"從過去這個極權統治的一些國家你說普魯士我剛要到委員會來我特別去查了1851年普魯士王國那個就是皇權統治之下死刑是幾年呢?30年10年以上呢?是20年也就是說哪怕我叫做皇帝"},{"start":385.728,"end":403.564,"text":"我這個刑法的設計我基於整個法的安定性的考量我基於你像比如說整個追溯的一個成本就是正義的一個代價到底會有多少當皇帝的人他的刑法的設計都有追溯權時效"},{"start":405.847,"end":416.222,"text":"現在你說站在檢察官的立場,或者說站在人民的那種想要的正義的立場來看的話,你國家就是要給我在尖發福。不管他討論到什麼地方去,他躲了N年,你就給我抓出來。"},{"start":418.948,"end":444.068,"text":"值得討論我是覺得值得討論但是呢我看這些提案裡面主要是因為兒少性侵往往不容易被揭露或者自身也不清楚自己遭遇到些什麼你像是澳洲他們皇家調查委員會就發現兒童遭到性侵平均要發揮到24年才會被揭露那以目前追溯權時效來看10到20年確實又顯然又不足"},{"start":446.226,"end":471.783,"text":"那另外你去看監察院在二零二一年所做的報告當中啊就二零一四到二零二一這八年裡面教師對學生兩千九百四十九件職員工對學生四百七十三件這種通報性平案件呢就高達三千四百二十二件衛福部裡面的通報裡面的性侵害案件裡面悲哀人八千四百零一啊高達一半以上悲哀人都是未成年人"},{"start":473.203,"end":494.538,"text":"確實這個部分這一些修法的委員這樣的提案又有他的道理。報告委員我們補充一點好不好。來來來。剛才委員有講到時效是10年到20年。我們在修法兩次以後其實包含了227刑法227那個都已經是20年到30年。就會跨過他的成年。"},{"start":496.722,"end":521.871,"text":"所以不是說只有十年,最少都二十年。是,所以我的意思就是為什麼說司法院跟我們法務部這個地方啊,針對這些法律的一個修訂,你們要大膽去提出這個疑慮啊。我相信在司法法制委員會啊,它本來就是可以,只要是涉及到專業的,都是可以討論的地方。你們也不要被民粹給綁死啦。這本來就會有正反。"},{"start":522.952,"end":534.296,"text":"本來就會有正反如果說法務部跟司法院你們都不敢去提出比較權威的一個見解或者各國的看法是如此來做一個調和的話那我認為你們就是失職了是"},{"start":536.636,"end":560.516,"text":"真的真的我是我是我是我這個是比較反對派啊看起來是保守啊但是我是擔心啊我是招惠也是假官出身啊我相信他一輩子都在摸法律啊這些是討論了幾百年啊討論了幾百年啊就像我提的啊剛剛那個波魯斯王國啊像歐歐洲很多王權國家啊他們哪怕他們是帝王統治啊"},{"start":561.687,"end":574.114,"text":"在刑法的設計都有實效的設計為什麼沒辦法國家就是沒有大門大的一個力量否則任何只要涉及到刑事犯罪按照民粹來看的話都不應該有實效不是嗎"},{"start":577.739,"end":605.317,"text":"所以我會這樣設計就是涉及到整個追溯的一個成本甚至於會浮現我都很擔心喔這個法律這樣講又會被這個民粹給反撲也不太好就是說我們不要設計一個制度出來以後會造成更多的煙獄造成更多的被害人造成更社會大亂才會有整個法律體系法的安定性的考量到最後大家幾百年來考慮出來就說好吧就基於法的安定性給他一個實效的設計"},{"start":606.998,"end":631.727,"text":"讓社會去安定。不是這樣子嗎?所以再考慮一下應該可以再提出你們更權威的看法大膽的提出來啦。我家是政治議題也差而已啦。法律專業議題不用擔心啦好不好。這個法務部跟那個司法院這個要特別跟你們鼓勵啦。不要以為我們這個政黨在這邊攻防就我們不理性。我們是涉及到政治議題大家會比較像動物園。其他不會好不好。那另外啊"},{"start":632.887,"end":654.818,"text":"這個針對第二個詐欺犯罪的部分我特別要提醒我特別要提醒我相信大家都知道過去在解決這個車手跟人頭賬戶跟洗錢的部分啊這個大家共同努力還有今天我們去防堵了高達八十九億的詐騙金額這樣的一個成果但是相對於說被詐騙的數量我們其實需要有更多因應詐騙前端的手段"},{"start":655.658,"end":664.542,"text":"怎麼說呢我記得小英政府卸任了最後半年裡面行政院裡面也去提出打詐專法這個就是在回應國人對詐騙的一個立法的一個手段可是民眾是不滿意的還是不夠滿意的但今天很多委員提出的加重詐欺339之四的版本裡面就在這個基礎上"},{"start":677.628,"end":694.106,"text":"就希望對整個加重詐欺可以更高的一個刑法以便去改善我認為本席也認為這個利益都良善但另外一方面你也必須要去看到行政院你詐欺犯罪的危害防治當中啊你們也有相同條文的罪責跟其他的配套的一個方案喔"},{"start":694.767,"end":720.384,"text":"所以說你按照你正願版四十三條這個詐欺獲取財富跟獲得高達一千萬以上的你就增加了三三九之四法定刑一年以上七年以下增加到三年以上啦你也去增加啦並併科三千萬以下的一個罰金那針對冒名公務員境外機房跟三年以上共犯加重期刑二分之一啊你都從原本一年以上到七年以下的你增加到一年六個月到十年六個月以下"},{"start":721.024,"end":743.28,"text":"也擴大了去沒收的一個部分甚至於將犯罪利德跟所用之物一併沒收就是說你去提高詐欺犯假釋三分之二的刑期累犯四分之三還有不得假釋的手段為什麼提出這些就是說你們有時間差為什麼要有時間差你這一些啊"},{"start":744.261,"end":754.244,"text":"草案你五月九號才提出啦,這些委員的提案是比你還要早啦,所以你們要跟各個辦公室去再去做一個協調看看。你至少我沒有,欸莊瑞我到現在也沒聽到,我不來跟他說,欸我們後面已經提出來了,你們前面這個我後面比你還更完備。"},{"start":764.858,"end":773.083,"text":"你們在搞什麼我看了你們的版本後面提出來的不輸給我們啊可是我們立法委員各委員提出的版本是5月9號以前啊"},{"start":774.983,"end":780.488,"text":"所以趙偉你今天就拖了你知道嗎?所以這個喔法務部我是覺得這個有點喔你們這樣喔當然最近政局比較亂可是問題是說你們要修法的人你們不能這樣子啊你是要讓各個辦公室知道啊你要到羅志強委員辦公室到歐委員辦公室裡面去講或者到我辦公室來講說我們後面已經提出這些了不輸給你們立法委員的你們的配套更完整了我沒有聽到你們這樣講"},{"start":799.929,"end":800.049,"text":"則不允許"}]}},{"id":"152991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3ccce610b9c97f8585186e4a1bc6f964e945ede7791f90b9e905b1f1929327f535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:50:55 - 09:59:03","影片長度":"00:08:08","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":488,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:59:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:50:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.93284375,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.76784375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.429718750000003,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.75409375,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.22221875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.43721875,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.76159375,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.18596875,"end":34.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.84409375,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.830968750000004,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":51.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.07034375,"end":45.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.09971875,"end":46.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.02284375,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.92034375,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.50096875,"end":70.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.56846875000001,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.81159375,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.27034375000001,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.62471875,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.86471875000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.10096875,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.36596875000001,"end":116.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.89034375000001,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346875000001,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.89221875,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.09471875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":149.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.88159375,"end":146.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.33284375000002,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.64471875,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.17159375,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.85784375,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.92471875,"end":167.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.93721875,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.55721875,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.17721875,"end":171.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.56096875,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.08346875,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.59971875000002,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.13096875000002,"end":197.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.24721875,"end":212.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.00221875000003,"end":216.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.67221875,"end":217.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.89971875,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.71346875,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.10971875,"end":225.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.81409375,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.10909375000003,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.41221875000002,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.46284375000002,"end":235.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.02346875,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.91346875000002,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.11159375000003,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.65159375000002,"end":244.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.63784375,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.42221875,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.72596875000002,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.67096875000001,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.06721875000002,"end":254.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.72534375,"end":255.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.14284375,"end":283.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.44596875,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.35784375000003,"end":295.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.86659375,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.71034375,"end":308.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.55346875000004,"end":303.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.62909375000004,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.72596875,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.75909375000003,"end":334.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.40471875000003,"end":349.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.11971875,"end":380.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.30909375000005,"end":380.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.32596875,"end":382.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.99221875,"end":391.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.02034375000005,"end":411.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.54284375000003,"end":396.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.94971875000005,"end":420.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.76784375000005,"end":414.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.81846875,"end":414.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.34971875,"end":417.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.64034375,"end":423.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.02784375000005,"end":425.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.50034375,"end":426.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.18784375,"end":427.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.23409375,"end":428.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.63909375000003,"end":429.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.48284375000003,"end":430.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.92159375,"end":431.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.57534375,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.46534375000005,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.47346875000005,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.34659375,"end":438.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.22409375,"end":439.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.79346875000005,"end":440.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.13096875,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.48909375000005,"end":444.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.55221875,"end":474.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.38596875,"end":456.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.11284375,"end":486.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.39096875,"end":477.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.82971875000004,"end":477.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.45409375,"end":478.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.87596875,"end":479.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.22096875000005,"end":486.58784375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.083,"end":32.52,"text":"主席好,我們還是要請我們的何部長。好,請何部長。我也好。部長你好。是。今天進入這個主題之前我想請教您,您說勞保其實沒有危機,只有政府處理不當才會產生危機。那您的意思是要怎麼樣是用撥補到不會破產,"},{"start":34.195,"end":59.067,"text":"才用這種方式就是沒有危機是嗎?我是指的就是說我有解釋過這個撥補它本身就是一個改革啦就是改革的一環那麼因為這個撥補它本身就是所謂我們過去在勞保條例在2017年的時候我們曾經勞保條例修正案進來立院雖然沒有被三讀通甚至連一讀都沒有"},{"start":60.207,"end":87.503,"text":"對,那可是裡面有一條政府付最終支付責任入法這是一個國家負擔最終的勞保支付責任就是撥補,就是它的實踐所以它就是改革部長現在就是說上台之後您的責任就是撥補讓它不破產,就是您的目的這是我的任務之一任務嘛,那所以在也就是說在我們賴慶德總統任內不會引爆推到下面去就算了,就過了"},{"start":88.685,"end":94.819,"text":"我說把這個責任往後推就對了嗎?我們任內一定竭盡所能的來讓勞保財務穩定。"},{"start":97.423,"end":124.282,"text":"因為我看到啦就是說我們每年這樣撥補一千兩百億根本就是杯水車薪我們勞保財務精算的報告在勞保將在二零二八年破產二零三九年以後將達到給付的高峰那每年超過一兆並且連續三十年所以你每年撥補一千兩百億根本就是不夠的那部長這邊有沒有什麼好的辦法呢"},{"start":125.014,"end":143.477,"text":"跟委員報告其實每年撥補一千兩百億在我們的評估裡面是相當足夠喔這是因為喔就是我要跟您報告整個撥補的歷史從2020年開始本來只有兩百億在很多委員的提案在我們當年勞保年改條例的修正所以你是從幾年開始撥的?"},{"start":145.178,"end":159.704,"text":"我們從去年高達一千兩百億馬英九任內他的負債是七點三兆那蔡英文政府執政了八年現在負債十三兆也就是說你從2020年開始補這四年來他的負債並沒有減少還是持續的成長不是嗎"},{"start":166.994,"end":184.887,"text":"那是...委員...其實那個負債...我們現在用數字說話嘛,好不好?是是是...委員我們是看政府的實際作為啦。我指的就是說在...當然我們2013年嘛,政府時代喔,他並沒有拿出撥補的行為啦。那...而2020年我們有拿出來啦。"},{"start":188.53,"end":217.857,"text":"我的意思當時是指的就是說當然這個政府處理的態度不一樣會導致勞工的信心不一樣我看到你的幾個方式就是說您說勞保多元的改革包括延後的退休增加中高齡的就業讓家庭看護工納保等等這些都是您的想法嘛是吧那只是開源的方式而已那你有預計過這些能夠增加多少人多少的收入嗎讓多少人用納保"},{"start":219.099,"end":229.96,"text":"委員,這些開源的方式目前都還在評估中。好,那你評估要多久?目前我盡量來評估,好嗎?那一個禮拜可以給我嗎?"},{"start":234.69,"end":252.696,"text":"議員,我們給我們兩、三個月的時間好嗎?兩、三個月?是。是。因為其實勞保,我要跟委員報告,我要跟委員報告,就是勞保目前真的沒有危機啦。勞保現在的水位是創新高。真的不要擔心。對。沒有那麼嚴重。對。"},{"start":256.389,"end":282.578,"text":"我們在想我們就業服務法第46條修正案那11個排審案中也有兩件共同提案的四個連署案本系列主張在46條中應徵定80歲以上長者或70至79歲患有癌症第二期以上的僱主聘僱外籍外國的看護工免得醫療機構的得免經過醫療機構的評估就是免八十兩表的意思"},{"start":284.414,"end":307.491,"text":"部長剛剛我有聽到林委員在講就是說你們怕因為他80歲以後如果免80量表會排擠到我們移工的這個這個這個醫院是嗎?剛剛林委員的意思是說會排擠重度失能者啦就是說因為移工也會選啦他就是說選比較好照顧的人他的意思是這樣子對"},{"start":308.852,"end":334.604,"text":"但是我個人這樣講,當初提到這個案子的時候,我發現我們台灣的老百姓幾乎都是非常贊成的。我要講的一個重點就是說,我們台灣現在是少子化的社會。雖然他的長輩他可能還是可以照顧自己,但是可能因為他就一個人在家,小孩子他要為了工作到出外,那誰照顧他?"},{"start":337.005,"end":354.996,"text":"所以這個部分我當然認為說你要讓年輕人好好的在外面打拼那老人家我們政府有責任把他照顧好這是我們的初衷啦這是我們的初衷所以部長你怎麼看這樣的事情?對委員我開頭就講了我還是非常肯定委員們這一次的提案"},{"start":355.877,"end":363.704,"text":"這真的是苦民所苦的精神所以我們也在委員的這樣的指示底下所以我就是強調說我們盡量來做那麼我們也發展出兩種模式一個就多元認定免貧另外一個就是移工來進入這個家庭照顧服務這樣的兩種方式來處理"},{"start":380.659,"end":407.921,"text":"對阿因為我看你們的如果說像你們評估老人家可能就是下肢衰弱的狀況然後比較可能自己可以照顧自己但是呢他又還沒有達到申請外勞的那個標準那我們現在因為我們講說80歲以上為什麼我會這樣講呢如果我們現在不讓他就是還沒有達到看護申請外勞看護那個等級的時候"},{"start":409.262,"end":422.933,"text":"那會造成說他就要請這個陪伴嘛對不對家庭幫傭這種裝就是一般的陪伴需求用這種方式嘛對但是80歲以上你認為80歲以上我們的幫傭的我們是用點數申請的嗎?點數?對16點對你是講家庭幫傭吧對對對那是點數對但是你80歲以上就有16點嗎?"},{"start":435.666,"end":457.693,"text":"沒有。好像我記得只有6天。沒有。對。所以他根本就沒辦法請。對。我想部長是不是可以針對這個部分,如果你們認為說這個免巴适量表這邊有困難還是怎麼樣,是不是可以大家來做一個平衡,然後調整。對對對。解決我們現在真的需要的人,他真的是非常需要。不要因為這樣的一個政策,"},{"start":458.353,"end":486.715,"text":"議員﹚"}]}},{"id":"152990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3f9cdc23c9415f578e6d49214c7a82f13945ede7791f90b9e13c5f764d90b48005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:43:12 - 09:57:39","影片長度":"00:14:27","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":867,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:57:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:43:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時43分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長早。您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢，也說希望臺灣教育越來越好，本席跟你一樣的想法，我們都希望臺灣的教育越來越好。所以我首先要先跟您請教的是，因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對，不管是過去、現在或未來都一樣。您在擔任中山大學校長的時候，當時政大教育系的教授周祝瑛指出，曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的，部長願意證實一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，這個是來自於跟周教授，因為我們算是學長學弟的關係，我們總是希望大學裡面能夠學術自主，怎麼樣從學校裡的機制來做比較適當的校長遴選，是這樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以卡管案是不對的？你有說過這句話？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，因為確實是有一點時間，有一點……"],["洪委員孟楷：那您現在認為呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我還是認為學校的校長遴選，以現在的一個辦法機制，還是回到學校裡邊來做……"],["洪委員孟楷：政治黑手或是任何政治力都不應該介入？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，我認為應該回到讓大學從專業出發，就學術論學術，以既有的一個規範來……"],["洪委員孟楷：就學術論學術？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，為什麼我會特別跟您這麼請教？因為過去8年，蔡政府的教育成績單，卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害了大學自主跟學術倫理，也因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候，應該要開宗明義明確地說明清楚，到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術倫理的事情？你有信心不會再發生嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在我任內，我會朝那一個方向努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是不會讓它再發生，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，有很多人及學界稱讚你是作風親民，但是都呼籲應該要檢討一個政策，什麼樣的政策？剛剛也有委員提到，其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢，就是所謂課綱學習歷程的部分。學習歷程從過去這樣子上來，已經淪為很多媒體或很多坊間都在講的代工、代寫、軍備競賽、商品抄襲化，甚至你只要在Google關鍵字搜尋學習歷程所跳出來的，行情價是多少，部長有沒有瞭解？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，對不起，我不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不清楚？有沒有聽過？有沒有試著google過？如果連我們的教育部長都不瞭解現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題，要升大學可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開價十六萬八的、有開價二十萬的，很多大學一直在疾呼不要花冤枉錢，可是還是有這樣的市場、還是有這樣的行情，這代表什麼？代表有人買嘛！為什麼會有人買？是不是根本就認為學習歷程檔案到最後就變成是軍備競賽，有資源的學生可以做得漂漂亮亮，沒資源的、偏鄉學生就只能自求多福？部長，要不要正視這樣的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我想會有這樣的情形當然不是我們所樂見，我們也並不鼓勵。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，我相信一開始開宗明義講這個政策的時候，絕對不是說要讓民間做事業、做生意嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但問題是到現在推動了這幾年下來，這種情形越來越多，我們要不要查一下──現在輸入學習歷程檔案，google一下，有沒有這種行情價？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實的行情我並不清楚，因為我來自大學，我們當然也在大學裡面聽到一些系所教授，他們事實上……"],["洪委員孟楷：有講過？"],["鄭部長英耀：也討論過這一個，我們怎麼樣去呼籲大學裡的教授在推甄、在申請入學的時候，對於學生的學習歷程檔案，能夠真正的去閱讀，然後瞭解，以便跟學生在面談的時候能夠形成一個更良好的、認識學生發展的一個可能性，我想這是我們要來努力的。另外……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講得都非常好，這也都是教育人應該要有的理想，但理想很豐滿，現實很骨感啊，現在的狀況就是這樣子，那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一定會積極地來宣導，包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：宣導？不用檢討制度？"],["鄭部長英耀：我……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是告訴大家不要去買，多講幾次，就會有學生認為不要去買，是不是？多講幾次叫你不要賣，就會有人說「對，因為部長講了不要賣，所以我就不賣」，有可能嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想民主社會裡面確實會有一些我們看不到的、衍生出來的可能弊端，但是我們基本上還是會從……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，比較誠摯的建議啦，今年已經來不及了，但是既然您上任，是不是能夠在這三個月、半年的時間，針對學習歷程檔案去做一個澈底的檢討？您有大學端的經驗，把過去大學端、高中端的經驗，大家澈底的來做一個討論。有關學習歷程檔案，本席沒有說這樣的政策一定要廢除或怎麼樣，但是當利大於弊或弊大於利的時候，代表有相當的弊端，而我們要做的就是怎麼樣讓它精進，檢討得更好，這能夠做到嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，這個方向確實也是我們在努力的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，三個月內，是不是能夠針對學習歷程檔案來做一個檢討？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。部長，您上任的時候曾對媒體講說首要三件事，其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標，希望能夠讓陸生來臺，對不對？恢復陸生來臺。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實，這一點我必須要究責一下，教育部整部的業務報告那麼重要，部長宣示三件事、三把劍，照理講這三把劍，如果我是你們的同仁，一定是寫在最前面，寫在第1頁。結果我們部長的報告通篇36頁，下面報告人寫「教育部部長報告」，為什麼您最重要的事情沒有放在裡面？如果推說是時間來不及，我想您不是今天才上任，上個禮拜一的此時此刻，您剛上任，有整整一個禮拜的時間準備，禮拜五柯志恩召委也才告知今天會有專案報告，你有太多時間可以準備，但卻沒有放在裡面，原因是什麼？是不確定、沒有信心達成？還是有難言之隱？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這是我的疏忽，我們內部會來深切檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長算是有肩膀的人，不是推給下屬，而是說您自己疏忽，所以您是忘記了？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該說我確實是整個……這個角色的改變，確實這一個觀照不夠。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長自己承認說是來不及，本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章，9月能夠入學的時候又說來不及，所以沒有辦法推行這樣的制度。所以我想請教，現在我們溝通的管道是暢通的嗎？能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章、7月放榜、9月入學嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們在努力，也跟陸委會這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少信心能夠達成？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然希望能夠……這是一個好事，從教育的觀點，能夠讓兩岸的年輕人……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是好事，能夠用教育交流，尤其您有提到平等尊嚴，本席也認同，一定要平等尊嚴，兩岸交流本來就是這樣，但我不希望看到：第一，2023年有前總統馬英九前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的情況，帶學生去交流，之後也有大陸學生組團來臺交流，也是平等尊嚴，這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治，但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫「統戰團」，我們心裡在想，37位大學生來臺灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜，就可以把我們統戰，那臺灣的民主也太脆弱了吧！所以部長，你有信心明年5月能夠公告簡章、7月放榜、9月入學？會不會變成是統戰？"],["鄭部長英耀：就我個人來講，我從來不從這個角度來思考。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！我也不認為學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰，所以我們是不是應該在學術上面，政治歸政治，但學術歸學術？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，努力就要達成，我希望您到明年的7月、9月的時候還在這個位置上，本席也會在這個位置上持續監督您，現在開的支票，明年要兌現，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是謝謝啦！你要說「可以」啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最後我再請教，賴清德總統在選舉的時候有提過，他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費。您知道，到目前為止教育部真的有推動，可是就有一類人是被排除在外的，讓大家覺得他好像不是我們中華民國的國人、不是我們臺灣的學生，哪一類人？"],["鄭部長英耀：那就是獨招的獨中。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有多少位？"],["鄭部長英耀：一屆有2,000位學生。"],["洪委員孟楷：總共有6,030位，這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文，總共有6,030人。"],["鄭部長英耀：三年剛好大概就是六千多。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，大家也會問，覺得奇怪，明明賴清德總統不管在競選或是選舉完的承諾，都是說高中職免學費，一視同仁嘛！臺灣的學生沒有分你我，沒有分彼此，沒有分階級啊！但為什麼會……當初他的政策在宣布的時候也沒有但書，也沒有說獨立招生不算。如果說他當時有講的話，大家不會去怪罪，但現在變成是所有的這些家長或是學生都覺得奇怪，難道我們被賴清德總統遺忘了嗎？難道我們被教育部遺忘？還是我們不是高中職？部長，我覺得這是一個態度問題，今天它的預算到底有多少錢，其實算起來，依照教育部給本席的資料，每學年差不多是3億。它不是真的大筆到沒有辦法承受，可是它是一個公平性跟原則性的問題，這個部分有沒有能夠檢討的空間？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心。根據我們目前高中職教育法第五十六條第一項的規定，相當程度辦理單獨招生的這些是不適用的，就法令上它目前是這樣。另外我想委員也非常清楚，現在基本上有兩派不同的一些觀點，我們也希望最近看怎麼樣能夠透過一些諮詢會議，讓我們能夠得到一個共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席都完全理解，但是您是教育部部長，我只請教您的態度是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想就政策的大方向，我們是樂觀其成。"],["洪委員孟楷：樂觀其成怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是說未來能夠兼顧社會公共性，我們希望能夠朝一體適用免學雜費的方向來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是針對高中職，既然賴清德總統也說了，現在也都上路了，不管是公立學校、私立學校也都是高中職免學費了，您也認為應該是朝一體適用，全部都免學費，不要分你我，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們希望能夠在符合社會公共性的前提下，我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然是符合社會公正性啊！現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為他們被排除在外是不公平的，他們有他們的講法，另外一派有另外一派的講法，所以本席剛才才會請教部長，您的態度是什麼？因為您是主事者，您懂我的意思嗎？不管怎麼樣，兩派的意見來到你這邊，到最後你要做一個綜合判斷，不判斷也是一種判斷，不然就是逃避。賴清德總統既然已經說了，高中職全面免學費，我想所有的人也都認為這句話絕對沒有超譯或是過度衍生，只要你是中華民國國民，你是臺灣的學生，你唸高中職就免學費，結果沒想到現在有一群6,030人位在化外之地，他們被排除在外。即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋，也於事無補啊！他們就是認為他們被排除在外，他們沒有公平，所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎？能夠做檢討？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會優先檢討相關的法令，然後朝這個方向來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：一體適用的方向？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們繼續努力，還是強調本席跟您都一樣，希望臺灣教育愈來愈好，我們一起加油，謝謝部長！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：請柯志恩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.63784375,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.494093750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.189093750000001,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.336593750000002,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.19721875,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.242218750000006,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.30909375,"end":77.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.24659375,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.03534375000001,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.11534375000001,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.63846875,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.69721875,"end":84.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.56596875000001,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.74659375,"end":99.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.93534375,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.47909375,"end":112.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.13159375000001,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.78096875000001,"end":149.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.88096875000002,"end":165.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.14846875,"end":166.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.65034375000002,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.55721875,"end":173.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":183.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.60971875,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.70596875,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.35971875,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.74784375000002,"end":192.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.69284375,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.57409375,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.61596875,"end":202.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.45909375000002,"end":209.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.69846875000002,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.97534375,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.12971875000002,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.10846875000001,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.20971875,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.32784375000003,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.69471875000002,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.02284375000002,"end":253.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.14846875,"end":247.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.02596875,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":258.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.26471875000004,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.03534375000004,"end":307.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.40471875000003,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.02846875,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.04534375000003,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.02409375,"end":314.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.04096875000005,"end":314.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.15909375,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.93096875000003,"end":317.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.69846875,"end":328.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.77284375000005,"end":329.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.13971875000004,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.12096875000003,"end":342.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.42471875,"end":342.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.59346875,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.62721875,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.84971875,"end":377.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.27159375,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.98034375000003,"end":377.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.99721875,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.08159375,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.03409375,"end":389.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.75096875,"end":388.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.87721875,"end":409.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.64284375000005,"end":404.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.67159375,"end":412.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.02971875000003,"end":423.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.16721875,"end":428.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.01034375,"end":430.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.10284375000003,"end":432.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.87471875000006,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.01346875,"end":436.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.39721875000004,"end":449.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.05346875000004,"end":454.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.39034375000006,"end":461.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.66346875000005,"end":461.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.96721875000003,"end":468.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.13909375000003,"end":473.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.28596875000005,"end":476.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.52596875,"end":486.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.21221875000003,"end":490.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.28346875000005,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.44596875,"end":508.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.11596875000004,"end":514.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.27534375,"end":515.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.2922187500001,"end":520.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.03409375,"end":520.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.2365937500001,"end":520.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.2534687500001,"end":520.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.1772187500001,"end":523.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.96596875,"end":529.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.7878437500001,"end":538.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.83846875,"end":530.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.46159375,"end":538.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.76534375,"end":561.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.6772187500001,"end":565.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.9509687500001,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.09346875,"end":577.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.53971875,"end":578.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.64096875,"end":578.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.97846875,"end":579.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.0290937500001,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.9740937500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.0247187500001,"end":580.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.63221875,"end":581.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.2565937500001,"end":581.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.76284375,"end":583.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.02846875,"end":583.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.2478437500001,"end":583.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.90596875,"end":595.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.7478437500001,"end":608.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.4253437500001,"end":608.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.88096875,"end":609.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.01159375,"end":612.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.2478437500001,"end":610.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.4753437500001,"end":613.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.9097187500001,"end":621.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.38096875,"end":633.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.51409375,"end":637.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.94784375,"end":641.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.0278437500001,"end":641.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.0615937499999,"end":641.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.8715937500001,"end":650.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.2922187500001,"end":652.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.81534375,"end":651.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.4015937500001,"end":653.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.5322187500001,"end":663.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.48846875,"end":667.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.43721875,"end":686.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.63659375,"end":698.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.3647187500001,"end":706.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.51971875,"end":709.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.9453437500001,"end":718.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.3953437499999,"end":741.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.0290937500001,"end":747.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.81284375,"end":752.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.33534375,"end":753.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.14096875,"end":757.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.64659375,"end":766.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.81409375,"end":774.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.82971875,"end":780.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.9934687500001,"end":786.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.6928437500001,"end":786.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.76034375,"end":786.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.79409375,"end":793.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.4553437500001,"end":800.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.13346875,"end":811.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.6340937500001,"end":843.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.5109687500001,"end":844.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.71346875,"end":843.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.87784375,"end":851.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":851.5434687500001,"end":851.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":851.61096875,"end":852.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.2690937500001,"end":852.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.5559687500001,"end":852.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.58971875,"end":853.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.02846875,"end":853.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":854.26034375,"end":854.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.5303437500002,"end":856.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.1840937500001,"end":856.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.7747187500001,"end":857.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.1459687500001,"end":864.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.40221875,"end":865.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":865.27971875,"end":866.4609687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.693,"end":5.335,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好請部長"},{"start":14.229,"end":36.347,"text":"好部長早齁您剛剛受訪的時候說非常奇妙來備詢那也說希望台灣教育越來越好本席跟你一樣的想法我們都希望台灣教育越來越好所以我想首先也要先跟您請教因為教育很重要的就是誠實面對不管是過去現在未來都一樣您曾經"},{"start":37.884,"end":52.938,"text":"有在擔任中山大學校長的時候當時有政大教育系的教授周祝英指出曾經擔任中山大學校長的部長曾向他坦承卡管案是不對的部長願意證實一下嗎"},{"start":56.363,"end":57.243,"text":"所以卡管案是不對的你有說過這句話"},{"start":86.616,"end":88.758,"text":"甚至黑手或是任何政治意義都不應該介入"},{"start":102.723,"end":125.31,"text":"基本上我認為應該回到讓大學裡邊從專業出發就學術論學術是有的一個規範就學術論學術我想部長為什麼會特別跟您這麼請教因為過去8年蔡政府的教育成績單卡管案跟論文抄襲案其實嚴重傷害大學自主跟學術倫理"},{"start":126.61,"end":148.675,"text":"因此我們才會希望在新任教育部長開宗明義第一天來到教育文化委員會的時候應該要明確的說明清楚到底在你任內還會不會發生有任何政治力干預大學自主或是學術人力的事情你有信心不會再發生嗎我想在我任內我會朝那個方向努力就是不會讓它再發生對不對好"},{"start":150.115,"end":165.463,"text":"部長另外很多人學界也稱讚你說是作風親民但是都呼籲說應該要檢討一個政策什麼樣的政策剛剛我們有委員提到其實過去好幾年我們也都一直在質詢就所謂的課綱"},{"start":168.197,"end":195.128,"text":"學習歷程的部分學習歷程從過去這樣子上來已經已經淪為很多的媒體或說很多坊間都在講代工代寫軍備競賽商品抄襲化甚至你只要打學習歷程google跳出來行情價是多少部長有沒有了解各位報告對不起我不清楚不清楚有沒有聽過有沒有試著google過"},{"start":196.638,"end":207.255,"text":"如果說我們連一個教育部長你都不了解說現在高中生面臨到什麼樣的問題要升大學他可能會面臨到學習歷程檔案有開架16萬8有開架20萬"},{"start":210.725,"end":210.745,"text":"部長"},{"start":233.172,"end":252.794,"text":"要不要正式這樣的問題跟委員報告我想會有這樣的當然不是我們所樂見我們也並不鼓勵當然我相信一開始開宗明義講這一個政策的時候絕對不是說要讓民間做事業嘛做生意嘛但問題是現在就是推動了這幾年下來越來越多"},{"start":253.875,"end":253.895,"text":"有講過"},{"start":268.772,"end":269.572,"text":"部長你講的都非常好"},{"start":297.388,"end":317.415,"text":"這也都是教育人應該要有的理想但理想很豐滿現實很骨感啊現在的狀況就是這樣子那您上任之後要怎麼樣解決這個問題我想我們一定會積極的來宣導包括骨 宣導不用檢討制度就是告訴大家不要去買"},{"start":318.732,"end":329.131,"text":"多講幾次就會有學生認為說不要去買是不是多講幾次叫你不要賣就會有人說啊對因為部長講了不要賣所以我就不賣有可能嗎"},{"start":330.365,"end":332.488,"text":"部長,比較誠摯的建議今年已經來不及了但是既然您上任是不是能夠在"},{"start":350.452,"end":363.062,"text":"這三個月半年的時間針對學習歷程檔案來做一個徹底的檢討我們把過去您有大學端的經驗把過去大學端把高中端的經驗徹底大家來做一個討論學習歷程檔案"},{"start":365.123,"end":365.403,"text":"謝謝部長部長"},{"start":389.978,"end":411.265,"text":"拉回來您上任的時候媒體也對外媒體講說首要三件事其中第一件事情是希望達到賴清德總統就職演說時候的一個目標希望能夠讓陸生來台對不對恢復陸生來台確實這一點我必須要究責一下整部教育部業務報告"},{"start":413.103,"end":436.383,"text":"那麼重要部長宣誓三件事三把劍照理講這三把劍如果說我是我們的同仁一定是寫在最前面寫在第一頁結果通篇我們部長的報告36頁下面報告人寫教育部部長報告您的最重要的事情沒有放在裡面為什麼"},{"start":437.455,"end":453.567,"text":"如果說只推說給時間來不及我想您不是今天才上任上個禮拜一的此時此刻您剛上任有整整一個禮拜的時間準備我們禮拜五我們柯志恩召委也才告知說今天會有專案報告"},{"start":454.528,"end":475.66,"text":"您有太多時間可以準備但沒有放在裡面原因是什麼是不確定沒有信心達成還是有難言之意我想這是我的疏忽那我們會來深切內部我們會檢討部長您算是有肩膀的人不是推給下屬而是說您自己疏忽那所以您是忘記了"},{"start":478.475,"end":482.479,"text":"應該說我確實是整個這個這個角色的一個改變確實是一個"},{"start":490.351,"end":514.095,"text":"本席不希望到明年5月公告簡章7月能夠入學的時候又說來不及所以說沒有辦法推行這樣的一個制度所以我想請教現在我們跟溝通的管道是暢通的嗎能夠確實達到明年5月公告簡章7月放榜9月入學嗎"},{"start":515.342,"end":541.272,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們在努力也跟陸委會這邊有多少信心能夠達成我們當然希望能夠這一個這是一個好事從教育的觀點能夠讓兩岸的年輕人當然是好事能夠交流用教育尤其您有提到平等尊嚴本市也認同一定要平等尊嚴兩岸交流本來就是這樣但我不希望看到第一2023年"},{"start":542.893,"end":570.929,"text":"有前總統馬英九他前往中國大陸也是平等尊嚴的一個情況帶學生去交流之後也有大陸學生組團來台交流也是平等尊嚴這兩個交流也沒有涉及到政治但當時民進黨就有委員講說這叫統戰團我們現在想說37位大學生來台灣旅遊觀光一個禮拜就可以幫他們統戰那台灣的民主也太脆弱了吧"},{"start":572.165,"end":594.298,"text":"所以部長你有信心明年5月能夠公告檢章7月放榜9月入學會不會變成是統戰就我個人來講我從來不從這個角度來思考是嘛我也不認為說學生平等尊嚴的交流會是統戰所以我們是不是應該在學術上面政治歸政治但學術歸學術我想我們會努力"},{"start":596.803,"end":599.825,"text":"部長最後我再請教賴金德總統在選舉的時候有提過說他希望能夠讓高中職全面免學費"},{"start":622.435,"end":637.743,"text":"但您知道到目前為止教育部真的有推動可是就有一類人他是被排除在外讓大家覺得說他好像不是我們中華民國的國人他不是我們台灣的學生哪一類人那就是獨招的獨中是有多少位"},{"start":640,"end":662.555,"text":"一屆有2000位的學生總共6030位這個是教育部長潘文忠給本席的公文總共有6030人三年剛好大概有6000多那大家也會問啊覺得奇怪明明賴清德總統在不管競選或是選舉完之後的承諾都是說高中職免學費一視同仁嗎"},{"start":663.576,"end":685.794,"text":"台灣的學生沒有分你我沒有分彼此沒有分階級啊但為什麼會當初他的政策宣布的時候也沒有但書啊也沒有說獨立招生不算如果說他當時有講的話大家不會去怪罪但現在變成是所有的這些家長或學生大家都覺得說奇怪難道我們被賴金的總統遺忘了嗎難道我們被教育部遺忘還是我們不是高中職"},{"start":687.691,"end":708.339,"text":"部長我覺得這是一個態度問題今天他的預算到底有多少錢其實算起來每學年依照教育部給本席的資料每學年差不多3億他不是一個真的大筆到沒有辦法承受可是他是一個公平性跟原則性的問題在這個部分上面有沒有能夠檢討的空間"},{"start":709.997,"end":716.632,"text":"要跟委員報告謝謝委員的一個關心因為根據我們目前的高中職的一個教育法第56條第一項的規定"},{"start":719.491,"end":722.612,"text":"本席都完全理解但是您是教育部長我只請教您的態度是什麼"},{"start":747.847,"end":752.511,"text":"就是高中職 既然賴清德總統也說了現在也都上路了不管是公立學校私立學校也都是高中職免學費了"},{"start":775.192,"end":800.256,"text":"您也認為是說應該是朝一體適用全部都免學費不要分你我我們希望能夠符合社會公共性的這個前提下我們來努力當然是符合社會公正性現在就是很多的學生跟家長認為說他們被排除在外是不公平啊他們有他們的講法另外一派有另外一派的講法所以本席剛才會請教部長您的態度是什麼"},{"start":802.159,"end":816.477,"text":"因為您是主事者,您懂我意思嗎?不管怎麼樣兩派的意見來到你這邊到時候你要做一個綜合判斷不判斷也是一種判斷啦但就是逃避但賴清德總統竟然已經說了高中職全面免學費我想所有的人也都認為是說"},{"start":817.958,"end":842.33,"text":"這一句話絕對沒有抄議或是絕對沒有過度衍生就是高中職只要你念的是中華民國國民你是台灣的學生你高中職就免學費結果沒想到現在是有一群人6030人他是話外之地他被排除在外那即便你再拿更多的法條出來解釋也於事無補啊他們就會認為是說他們就被排除在外他們沒有公平啊所以您的態度剛剛有講到是要一體適用是嗎"},{"start":843.667,"end":843.687,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b377bf3fa64ef63c9b5186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24e46622ad7871bd4675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:40:22 - 09:50:48","影片長度":"00:10:26","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":626,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:50:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:40:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.63784375,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.52721875,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.860343750000002,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.59284375,"end":47.314718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.500343750000006,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.23846875,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.18659375,"end":62.56971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.83971875,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.42909375,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.59659375000001,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.10659375,"end":115.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.42221875000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.80971875,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.44221875000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.48846875000001,"end":129.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.63096875000002,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.96784375000001,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.00034375,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.20221875000001,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.21409375000002,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.18409375000002,"end":155.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.20909375000002,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.27159375000002,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.03096875,"end":162.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.28034375000001,"end":218.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.47784375,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.91221875000002,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.19034375,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.94971875000002,"end":227.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.26534375000003,"end":239.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.07284375,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.13159375000004,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.86409375,"end":288.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.95221875000004,"end":288.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.20096875,"end":292.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.45784375,"end":293.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.52534375,"end":293.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.67284375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.44846875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.32596875,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.86596875000004,"end":300.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.32471875000005,"end":309.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.64534375,"end":335.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.85596875000005,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.55659375000005,"end":340.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.07471875000005,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.70159375000003,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.68034375,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.70909375,"end":360.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.04221875,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.07034375,"end":369.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.27284375000005,"end":369.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.03909375,"end":385.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.12659375000004,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.93659375000004,"end":389.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.13034375,"end":424.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.84221875000003,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.06909375000004,"end":438.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.39284375000005,"end":456.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.02721875000003,"end":471.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.68534375,"end":456.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.13034375,"end":476.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.98596875000004,"end":483.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.44471875000005,"end":485.15346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.42346875000004,"end":503.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.02409375,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.50721875,"end":524.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.5522187500001,"end":589.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.3472187500001,"end":568.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.3372187500001,"end":580.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.79534375,"end":596.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.66346875,"end":618.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.8203437500001,"end":620.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.6597187500001,"end":623.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.0347187500001,"end":624.10221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.933,"end":7.434,"text":"麻煩請我們的何部長。請何部長。我來介紹團體在過往的服務經驗裡邊如果有照顧需求的話這樣對家庭造成非常大的壓力然後也是比較是年輕人對於他在適應家庭的時候是一大負擔"},{"start":27.476,"end":28.397,"text":"議員：林月琴"},{"start":49.417,"end":75.413,"text":"我們國內的移工的政策常涉及到你如果要放寬資格的話真的要格外的小心為什麼因為避免會擠壓到更多更需要移工的產業跟家庭所以就想問部長因為重度需求的家庭也一直在來拜會本席這邊一直在申訴說他們對於移工比較喜歡去照顧輕度而有自主能力的人所以就會一直沒有辦法"},{"start":76.548,"end":101.023,"text":"協助他們去照顧所謂的重度有需求所以他們常常就留不住移工所以這個訴求我相信勞動部應該也是知道的所以一旦我們對80歲以上的老人的那個聘僱資格做全面開放的時候是不是大家就又開始去挑工作最後會變成比較去照顧80歲以上因為他們自主能力都OK"},{"start":101.596,"end":122.363,"text":" ﹖﹖﹖"},{"start":122.503,"end":138.783,"text":"目前用一個所謂80歲就來放的話而不做任何的這樣子的一個區別的話他確實很可能會造成重度失能者被排擠然後當然就是轉到輕度失能這邊比較好顧嘛比較好算這樣子"},{"start":139.631,"end":153.618,"text":"所以我剛剛才強調我們現在的做法是希望能夠把它進行一個區別化就剛剛一塊是用多元認定另外一塊是用陪伴照顧服務然後希望這兩邊都能夠更精進這樣子那多元認定的方式當然貴委員會所提出來的修正案我們也都很重視是因為為什麼因為80歲以上像去看資料"},{"start":164.923,"end":188.831,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":189.641,"end":212.382,"text":"可是相對的這樣子照顧會不會造成依賴跟獨立性被剝奪甚至從數據來看八十歲以上的老人68%也是自認健康甚至八十歲以上的老人那五衰落的大概34.25%那輕度衰落的35.33那表示大概有70%所以對健康的老人除了陪伴之外不需要移工照顧"},{"start":213.608,"end":227.414,"text":"會不會是造成指派去做額外的工作就像我婆婆的看護工來之前她事實上是在被聘用的時候她是在小吃天為什麼她基本上事實上是說被"},{"start":228.331,"end":241.209,"text":"指控家裡長輩可實際上他做的工作並不是這樣這就是現在我想部長不知道這樣知道這樣子的一個現況嗎就是在現行如果要開放85歲以上這樣輕度"},{"start":244.894,"end":246.195,"text":"〈勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案〉案〉"},{"start":274.244,"end":285.688,"text":"是,委員當然這個所謂的假看護然後真的打工這確實在民間是有耳聞可是這個覺得是違法的因為我說連我婆婆的耳"},{"start":291.851,"end":306.545,"text":"是,這是違法的。我要明確指出這是違法的。當然去年我們常獲得23件。對。算很低耶。可是你看報紙上寫的都還算是。它常常可能是合併性的。"},{"start":307.458,"end":322.751,"text":"所以他又有照顧（所以德部長也要順帶一提啦因為目前所有的移工類別當中只有家庭看護工跟幫傭不適用勞基法那勞動部一直也沒有針對我們的移工跟僱主落落相殘的問題提出解方"},{"start":323.459,"end":351.433,"text":"那所以民間團體他們的表示也是說家庭看護工開放的門檻越放寬好像對於移工越不利那勞動部你對這個質疑你怎麼回應是就是因為這樣所以我們比較謹慎那麼我剛剛提的這個移工這個進入這個家庭照顧服務多元陪伴施辦方案其實就是為了這個就是因為我們希望能夠發展一個"},{"start":354.015,"end":378.834,"text":"並不是完全的政府聘僱啦而是由NGO監管下的至少他就會有勞保對不對對然後他由仲介來聘然後仲介來派事實上僱主是仲介啦不是那個案家這樣案家也比較輕鬆不必負僱主責任然後他也可以給這個移工勞基法跟勞保的保障這樣而有彈性化的服務甚至一對多的服務這樣子"},{"start":379.414,"end":405.746,"text":"好,謝謝部長。接下來是不是請我們的長照師的助師長。目前我們去年10月13號開始用CNS在做評估。所以請問一下,目前長照照專的人力只有2000多位,相當吃緊。可是這個問題關係到長照人力是否會遭到新制度的排擠。"},{"start":406.366,"end":428.63,"text":"所以請衛福部這邊可不可以說明使用長照服6個月以後我們的聘僱移工是否需要重新做CNS評估這一直搭連我們民間團體都不太清楚這種狀況因為2000個照專那目前有400萬的那個老人所以想問一下你們目前是不是還要去做重新做評估如果使用到6個月以後"},{"start":431.147,"end":458.921,"text":"使用六個月以後就是他本來就已經在長照體系的服務對象所以他的CMS的等級這個資料是清楚的那我們目前的CMS的評估基本上是一年負評一次所以要申請如果要走這個多元評估免評的這一塊他基本上是只要把他的那個相關有服務記錄因為連續要六個月使用照顧服務類的服務那我再問一個就是說"},{"start":459.381,"end":484.813,"text":"家庭看護工聘僱方式一直都有調整一定會牽動到長照所以除了人力資源的排擠甚至對於長照的使用量也會造成影響所以現在長照的需求等級是二到八級新制度是不是會腐爛到無論需求等級只要使用長照服務達六個月以上就可以銜接移工的聘僱"},{"start":485.793,"end":510.383,"text":"我們去年推出跟勞動部一起合作推出了多元免貧那個概念是長照服務他必須要使用所謂的B碼照顧服務類的那這個部分持續六個月每個月都有用這樣才可以符合多元免貧的機制長照服務事實上是國家提供的應對政策也要針對於我們因為高齡化的來臨"},{"start":511.323,"end":524.439,"text":"可是現在如果提80歲以上都去拼顧所謂的移工對於我們長照會不會影響崩盤接下使用量就反而會變低了?你的評估是什麼?"},{"start":526.493,"end":551.288,"text":"這塊確實我們在我們今天的的書面報告其實有提到如果以八十歲以上我們目前國家是九十一萬多人那我們手上確實有掌握他是屬於失能的這部分目前只佔百分之四十一所以換句話說大概五十三萬多人其實並不進入到我們所謂的失能的這樣的一個領域裡面那所以他基本是生活可以治理的"},{"start":551.988,"end":579.227,"text":"那剛剛也不同的委員都有提到就是說其實我們我們即使是這個我們國家或者是世界的這些相關的國家都強調的是希望要長輩能夠減少依賴能夠訓練自我照顧那我們其實也擔心因為我們國人過往引進移工有時候會變成就是比較茶來伸手飯來張口那其實有可能靠著這樣的依賴"},{"start":579.927,"end":608.1,"text":"所以也擔心說這樣子的能力會退化得更快所以我們的想法還是期待是說如果真的是用家庭看護工這個名義要引進的還是要否這個真的有照顧需求的大概是我們的想法是這樣好謝謝市長所以本席提出來希望能夠事實上是85歲以上而且是獨居無家人者那這個事實上是我們問民間團體尤其是老人福利團體們他們認為"},{"start":610.274,"end":623.154,"text":"這個可能是在照顧上的一個破口。那是不是有這個85歲以上有限定獨居家人者來作為一個聘僱的那個需求。以上謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3866cf74f7e9c7686e6d49214c7a82f13e1548db29109d24ecfd5e39c6a8a3cb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:28:00 - 09:43:07","影片長度":"00:15:07","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":907,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:43:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:28:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時28分）謝謝主席，我們一定會準時，有請部長、張廖次長，還有葉次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭部長還有兩位次長，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長、兩位次長早安。我想就1分鐘的時間可不可以請部長跟兩位次長分享一下，新上任最積極想要推動的或者是最希望讓人民看到的工作亮點會是什麼？可不可以一人30秒？謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，我本身學教育，我一直看到大家共同努力為臺灣培養更具競爭力的人才，不管是產業或者他的生涯發展能夠在國際上發光發熱，我們確實立意良善、許多發展目標都很好，也許有一些部分我們必須要做微調，讓家長更放心、讓老師沒有那麼大的壓力、讓學生也能夠更篤定地配合他的生涯跟志趣去發展學習，我想這是我這次接任這一個職務……"],["陳委員培瑜：我聽到部長有滿滿的人文關懷，而且你把其中非常重要的3個角色──老師、家長、學生都提到了，謝謝部長。先把時間給兩位次長，各30秒，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員，大家都知道過去我在教育及文化委員會，我負責督導國教跟體育方面，師資培育也是，我希望將來進入到教育部之後，有機會把過去我所瞭解的理念逐步地落實，配合教育部的政策。剛才部長講了非常多，委員也有很多指教，我也希望我能聽到更多的反映，然後協助部長來推動整個政策，包括國教方面我們講到108課綱的落實、素養教育等等，體育署升格為體育部的事情，我也會特別特別的來加速協調及推動。謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝張廖次長，你剛剛說希望能聽到更多的聲音，我相信這也是所有人對您的期待，還有你剛剛講到體育署要升級這件事情，這個部分我覺得大家更期待也許您有機會直接擔任部長，我覺得你可能是更多人的想望。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來麻煩葉次長。"],["葉次長丙成：謝謝委員，我想在少子化臺灣，我們覺得現在的臺灣，特別在產業發展上其實是滿欠缺人才的，怎麼樣在少子化臺灣可以讓臺灣有更多的人才，這是我這一次會想要加入教育部一個很大的原因，特別是過去因為我自己在大學，然後又出來創業，因為有這兩邊的關係，我發現在大學裡面對產業真正有瞭解的學校老師或是學生其實並不是很多，所以未來我希望我們能夠做好怎麼樣來橋接大學跟企業、解決學用落差這件事情，讓少子化臺灣未來的發展不會欠缺人才，我想這是我未來會很努力的目標。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝葉次長，我剛剛聽到您說的重點就是產業跟學界之間的合作，這件事情我想大家都非常期待。好，二位次長先請回，謝謝，也謝謝你們的回復，我相信大家都非常期待二位次長還有新部長。","第一個想跟部長談一下關於行政減量這件事情，其實教育部已經喊了很多年，可是現場的困境是這樣的，我跟部長您做分享，螢幕上這個是新北市某一所國小各處室召開會議的整理表格，他們日常的委員會就有這麼多，而且這個編制，因為所有的新課綱或是所有的行政督導，導致於每一個學校必須有這麼多委員會，而這些委員會的組成委員當然就必然會有老師。可是我要講，這些都不含老師日常的教學、備課，還有跟家長之間的互動，甚至還要處理班級經營或者是學生很多日常的突發狀況，光是國小的部分就這樣。","我們來看一下國中的情況更慘，43個！為什麼我說更慘呢？因為很多國中生的教學還有跟家長的互動，其實那個日常的負荷量是非常非常大的，光是把委員會列出來就這麼多，而且這個是學校老師整理給我們作為參考的。我想要問部長，我們到底該怎麼做到行政減量這件事情？甚至到最近都還有人投書，現場老師對於行政減量是非常非常非常無感的，到底我們可以怎麼做這件事情？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，上個禮拜我在聽各司處的一些工作報告，我也非常理解來自於基層第一線國中、小老師，甚至行政上的這些主任、校長，他們深感到行政方面許多的會議跟表單確實超過了學校既有人力上的負荷。所以我在上個禮拜聽取各司處的工作報告時，我也有提出一個重點，就是請各司處本於業務，希望能夠行政簡化，然後許多能夠聯合的，包含督導的這些工作，都應該採用聯席督導的活動方式來呈現。簡單來講，我們希望中、小學老師跟主任應該回到教學的專業裡面，儘量能夠從專業教學去協助我們的新世代，不管小學生或者年輕人的一些學習，讓教育能有更好的教學品質，我相信那是我們所要的……"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我時間有限，但是我已經聽到部長您是第一時間就有關心這件事情，而且你也做了相關的指示，我們非常期待後續的調整，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤。","我再快速跟部長分享另外一個狀況，除了教育部會有非常多的公文跟非常多的行政指導給學校之外，甚至很多跨部會的公文認為有些議題必須要學校配合辦理的，例如說國防教育、食農教育等，很多跨部會的，他們就直接把公文透過教育部再轉給學校單位，對學校來說，他們就必須要把那個成績的量能做出來，或者是那個業務執行的成果做出來，對很多老師來說，這真的是……剛剛那些都只是我列出教育部的部分而已，還不包括跨部會給予各個學校行政上的要求跟相關議題上的要求，所以他們真的非常非常非常痛苦。我相信部長您剛剛說的，讓老師回到教學專業這件事情，有更多力氣協助學生、協助家長，我想後續我們一起來努力，好不好？謝謝部長。","下一個部分我想要談關於閱讀作為一種方法的可能，我們可以看一下這張投影片在告訴我們文化資本跟兒童字彙量研究的結果，相關數字所顯現出來的是，家裡文化資本越高的小孩，在3歲以前所累積的相關字彙量的差距不會太大，可是年紀越大或者是孩子走進學校之後，相關學術科目的學習成績會落差越來越大。部長您來自第一線教育現場，我相信你一定知道這個狀況，所以我非常感謝教育部過往推出了所謂閱推計畫，還有明日閱讀，這是教育部裡面唯二兩個關於閱讀的特殊專案。可是我自己要說的是，過往很多對於閱讀的想像都認為它只是學術科目以外的外加，但是部長我要告訴你，根據108課綱底下素養的出題方法，長的題目、長的題幹、大量文字資料的辨識，已經讓閱讀這件事情不能再只是作為學術科目的外加，必須要作為一種學習方法去協助學生、協助家長。","我們辦公室在去年辦了非常多跟閱推老師的座談，很多閱推老師他們在現場遇到的困境，我們已經跟國教署反映，也感謝國教署做了一些調整。可是我在這邊要再次拜託部長，有沒有可能去發起一個討論或者是正式的研究報告，把閱讀作為一種學習方法納入新課綱或者是納入試辦計畫中，讓更多的孩子是帶著方法去學習這些學習科目，而不是回到我們以前小時候，不會就一直練、不會就一直寫、不會就一直讀，其實是沒有用的，甚至要透過AI家教我也都沒有意見。可是我要問的是，從來沒有人好好教這些小孩所謂學習方法這件事情，真的只會讓文化資源的落差表現在學術科目學習上是越差越大，我相信部長你一定深有同感。我也想要在這邊拜託部長，我就不再談這麼多閱推老師的困境，可是我們確實感謝教育部從去年修了國教法後，有相關的預算，每年可以有買書相關的調整，可是我要說的是，在閱讀教育現場還有很多沒有做到的事情，因為我時間有限，我們之後會再跟國教署討論，但是我要再次強調，閱讀作為一種學習方法，真的已經是這個世代的小孩必然需要的工具，不能再只是把它認為是一種主要學習科目以外的風花雪月，我要再次強調這件事情，因為已經有很多學者專家告訴我們這件事情，我相信國教院一定有相關的研究，也請部長積極跟國教院保持討論，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：非常謝謝委員的關心，基本上，委員的觀念我完全認同也支持，我們會來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們一起努力。","時間有限，關於特教的部分也是很多委員一直關心的，我們辦公室過去一整年也跟很多特教老師、特教現場的家長還有學生，我想要先談分散式資源班教學的困境，教育部在5月3號修訂完相關辦法之後，關於分散式資源班現在遇到了幾個問題，例如一個班級只有一個專用教室，導致分散式資源班裡面可能有二、三個教師在同一個小小的空間進行不同分組的小組教學，這裡面可能有過動症的孩子，可能有專注力不足的孩子，可能有學習障礙的孩子，但是卻落在同一個空間，如同我這個照片上所顯示的，只能用活動式黑板隔間分組上課。我覺得這個教育現場的困境真的很悲慘，孩子們的學習狀況已經很不好了，而每一個老師卻只能在這麼有限的空間裡上課，甚至更悲慘的是，因為編制在同一個班級裡，所以只有一份導師費，如果這個小組教學裡面有三個老師，這三個老師的悲慘是三個人輪流領導師費。所以空間的不足、人力的不足、經費的不足，造成普特融合現場的困境越來越多。我要說我絕對贊成普特融合，可是在普特融合的大理念之下，現場老師的困境必須要被教育部看見，必須要被國教署聽見，這個部分我覺得還有很多可以討論的部分，也想要拜託部長後續持續在特教的議題上，非常多、千頭萬緒，請拜託一起關心。所以關於這個分散式資源班，我們現在這邊提出建議，有沒有可能朝一班一師一教室，甚至充實相關教育經費，還有5年內朝向當時修法最後所說的師生比1比8邁進？我覺得這是一個困難的事情，但是我們必須要積極放在心上，這個部分可不可以請部長快速回應一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想普特的融合是我們希望的，這個也是有價值的、必然要走的，怎麼樣讓老師在同一個空間裡面，透過分組的教學，不會干擾到彼此的行動……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，可是在同一個空間有困難啦！部長，你自己在現場教過，如果我今天教國文，然後這個小孩有過動症，我在教他國文，可是隔壁同一個空間裡面，而且學校教室就這麼小，不像我們這邊這麼大耶。我覺得關於空間這件事情，因為少子化，除了很多明星學校或是很擠的學校之外，其實很多學校都開始有相關空間釋出了，但是可能在學校的行政端沒有意識到這些特教老師在現場教學的困難，所以部長，我們絕對不要說我們認同同一個空間，我覺得這個有很大的教學上的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們進一步來瞭解，看怎麼樣來做一些調整。謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。召委，再給我1分鐘就好了，謝謝，不好意思喔！謝謝部長，接下來我想要談一下關於中興堂，我們過去一整年花了很多時間來協助，部長請回，我想請張廖次長。","次長，您過去在擔任立委的時候非常關心臺中的教育發展、文化、體育發展，非常謝謝次長。我想要先談一下關於臺中中興堂的部分，一直到最近我們聽到可能有一些調整跟改變，可是困境是臺體大接手之後關閉中興堂，閒置到目前為止，其實很多地方人士，我相信，還有黃國書委員也都做過勘查，到目前為止，你覺得在這個題目上有沒有什麼可能性？因為就我自己的觀察，有了臺中歌劇院之後，其實新的場地排擠了舊的場地，很多小型的民間表演藝術團體他們認為可以申請像這樣小型的場地，像是大家一直想要學的韓國，韓國確實有很多中小型的場地被活絡使用，大家不用都去擠歌劇院，所以我也想要問一下次長，身為臺中出身的立委，你對於這一題，目前你們有沒有什麼規劃？有沒有機會邀請跨部會做一些討論跟協調？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，謝謝委員的關心，我想有關中興堂，因為它的土地所有權還是市政府，後來輾轉的使用，其實很多單位都使用過，我想委員很瞭解，包括我們國臺交也用過。它在2012年之後又回歸給臺體大，臺體大畢竟是一個學校，它對文化場館的運用，事實上也沒有多餘的經費、人力跟人才，後來在出借的過程裡面發生了一些狀況，也因為安全的因素，所以後來就是荒廢了。當然，在地方民意代表跟市政府的關心下，目前也在做一些研究，初步也有委員說可以來做電競使用，不過對於中興堂要怎麼使用，我想我們還是尊重地方市政府的所有權，文化界人士或其他人士想要一起來把這個中興堂活化，我想是可以一起來參與，因為地方現在決策也都非常的透明。"],["陳委員培瑜：這邊我想要拜託次長，是不是由教育部來發動，邀請政委還有文化部共同協調，把中央政府該有的責任跟提供相關的資源、經費去協助地方，也讓這個地方活化？因為它活化的不會只是所謂市政府的財產跟土地，其實是整個文化權。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員的關心，我們來努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長。謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","林倩綺","葉元之","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","范雲","何欣純","牛煦庭","林月琴","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.371593750000001,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.12846875,"end":25.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.191593750000003,"end":37.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.96596875,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.75034375,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.58971875,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.05159375,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.16846875,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.50284375000001,"end":87.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.83159375000001,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.72846875,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.89096875,"end":145.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.03346875,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.58846875,"end":159.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.42721875,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.70721875,"end":289.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.70284375,"end":352.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.21221875000003,"end":373.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.24284375,"end":496.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.03346875000005,"end":588.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.37346875,"end":595.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.41471875,"end":595.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.7353437500001,"end":597.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.64221875,"end":642.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":643.32284375,"end":702.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.71846875,"end":720.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.5134687500001,"end":752.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.62221875,"end":756.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":756.30096875,"end":757.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.00971875,"end":757.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.26284375,"end":757.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.3640937499999,"end":757.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":758.2078437499999,"end":771.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":772.33221875,"end":825.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":825.77534375,"end":889.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.56659375,"end":838.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":888.85409375,"end":904.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.99971875,"end":902.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.11346875,"end":905.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":904.75034375,"end":906.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":907.2140937500001,"end":907.9734687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":2.131,"text":"發言第二位的陳培瑜委員好謝謝主席我們一定會準時好那有請部長還有張亮次長還有葉次長謝謝好我們請鄭部長還有兩位次長謝謝"},{"start":25.532,"end":39.717,"text":"部長,兩位次長,早安。我想就一分鐘的時間可不可以請部長跟兩位次長分享一下在新上任最積極想要推動的或者是最希望讓人民看到的工作上的亮點會是什麼?可不可以就一分鐘,一人三十秒,謝謝。"},{"start":43.823,"end":63.533,"text":"謝謝委員 事實上我上來 我想我本身學教育 我一直看到了我們事實上大家共同在努力為台灣培養人才 有一個更具有競爭力的一個人才 不管是產業或者他生涯的發展能夠在國際上能夠發光發射 但是我"},{"start":65.196,"end":84.309,"text":"﹗"},{"start":85.523,"end":86.244,"text":"謝謝部長那可不可以先把時間給兩位次長謝謝各30秒謝謝"},{"start":100.213,"end":126.341,"text":"好謝謝委員我想我來到這邊我過去大家都知道我在教育文化委員會那我負責督導國教跟體育的方面那四肢培育也是那我希望將來有機會進入到教育部之後把過去我所了解的理念能夠逐步的落實配合教育部的政策剛才部長講了非常多那委員也有很多指教那我也希望教育部能夠我能夠"},{"start":128.762,"end":144.499,"text":"聽到更多的反應然後來協助部長來推動整個這個包括國教方面我們講到108課綱的落實素養教育等等然後體育屬這個升格為體育部的事情我也會特別特別的來加速協調跟推動謝謝"},{"start":146.061,"end":161.499,"text":"好 謝謝張亮次長你剛剛講到說你希望聽到更多的聲音我相信這也是所有人對您的期待還有你剛剛講到體育署要升級這件事情這個部分我覺得大家更期待也許是您有機會直接擔任部長我覺得是更多人的想望接下來歡迎麻煩次長謝謝葉次長"},{"start":165.122,"end":186.312,"text":"謝謝委員,我想就是說在這個少子化的臺灣我們覺得現在的臺灣其實我們特別在產業的發展上面其實是蠻欠缺人才的那怎樣在少子化的臺灣可以讓臺灣有更多的人才這是我覺得是我這一次會想要加入教育部的一個大原因特別是過去因為我自己在大學然後自己又出來創業我發現就是說因為有這兩邊的"},{"start":188.693,"end":208.04,"text":"我發現在大學裡面對產業真的瞭解的這個學校的老師或是學生這方面其實並不是很多所以我未來我希望說我們能夠怎麼樣來做好這個橋接大學跟企業解決學用落差這件事情讓少子化台灣未來的發展不會欠缺人才我想這是我未來會很努力的目標"},{"start":209.28,"end":233.209,"text":"謝謝葉副部長我剛剛聽到您說的重點就產業跟學界之間的合作這件事情我想大家都非常期待好那有先先請兩位次長請回謝謝也謝謝你們的回覆我相信大家都非常期待兩位次長還有新部長那第一個想跟部長您談一下關於行政減量這件事情其實我們教育部已經喊了很多年那可是現場的困境是這樣的跟著跟部長您分享這個是新北市的某一所國小"},{"start":233.609,"end":252.892,"text":"議員會議員會"},{"start":252.952,"end":277.321,"text":"拜課還有跟家長之間的互動甚至還要處理班級經營或者是學生的很多日常的突發狀況只光是國小的部分就這樣我們來看一下國中更慘43個為什麼我說更慘呢因為很多國中生的教學還有跟家長的互動其實那個日常的負荷量是非常非常大的那光是把委員會列出來就這麼多而且這個是學校老師整理給我們作為參考我想要問部長"},{"start":279.582,"end":289.121,"text":"我們到底該怎麼做到行政減量這件事情甚至到最近都還有投書現場老師對於行政減量是非常非常非常無感的到底我們可以怎麼做這件事情"},{"start":291.385,"end":311.815,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,確實我在上個禮拜在聽各部會的各司處的一些工作報告我也非常理解來自於基層第一線上國中小老師跟甚至行政這些主任校長他們也深感到這一個行政"},{"start":312.435,"end":312.455,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":327.449,"end":327.529,"text":"主席"},{"start":352.432,"end":371.55,"text":"教學的一個專業裡邊盡量能夠從專業的一個教學去協助我們這個新世代這個不管小學生或者年輕人的一些學習回到一個教育的一個更好的一個教學的一個品質"},{"start":372.17,"end":389.929,"text":"好,因為我時間有限但是我已經聽到部長您是第一時間就有關心這件事情而且您也做了相關的指示那我們非常期待後續的調整我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是我就快速再跟部長分享另外一個狀況除了教育部可以有非常多的公文跟非常多的行政指導給學校之外"},{"start":390.009,"end":410.64,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":410.76,"end":410.78,"text":"謝謝部長。"},{"start":430.216,"end":457.377,"text":"好 那下一個部分我想要談關於閱讀作為一種方法的可能我們可以看一下這張投影片在告訴我們有文化資本跟兒童智慧量的研究也就是說到了3這相關的數字是家裡的文化資本越高的小孩相關的智慧量在3歲以前的累積相關的差距不會太大可是年紀越大或者是跟著孩子走進學校之後相關的學術科目的學習成績會落差越來越大"},{"start":457.717,"end":478.903,"text":"我相信部長您來自第一線教育現場你一定知道這個狀況所以我非常感謝教育部過往推出的所謂閱推計畫還有明日閱讀這是教育部裡面唯二兩個特殊的專案關於閱讀可是過往我自己要說很多對於閱讀的想像都認為它只是學術科目以外的外加但是部長我要告訴你根據108課綱底下素養的出題方法長的題目長的題幹"},{"start":483.544,"end":484.205,"text":"我們辦公室在去年辦了非常多跟樂推老師的座談"},{"start":499.199,"end":513.504,"text":"很多樂推老師他們在現場遇到的困境我們已經跟國教署反映也感謝國教署做一些調整可是我要這邊再次拜託部長有沒有可能去發起一個討論或者是正式的研究報告把閱讀作為一種學習方法納入新課綱裡頭或者是納入試辦計畫裡頭讓更多的孩子是帶著方法"},{"start":520.226,"end":543.166,"text":"去學習這些學習科目而不是回到我們以前小時候不會就一直練不會就一直寫不會就一直讀其實是沒有用的甚至要透過AI家教我也都沒有意見可是我要問的是從來沒有人好好教這些小孩所謂學習方法這件事情真的只會讓文化資源的落差表現在學術科目學習上是越差越大"},{"start":543.726,"end":548.511,"text":"我相信部長你一定深有同感那我也想要在這邊拜託部長那我就不再談這麼多閱讀老師的困境可是我們確實感謝教育部從去年修的國教法有相關的預算每年可以有買書相關的調整可是我要說更多還有在閱讀教育現場這件事情"},{"start":560.823,"end":587.809,"text":"還有很多沒有做到的但我時間有限我們之後會再跟國教署討論但是我要再次強調閱讀作為一種學習方法它真的已經是這個世代的小孩必然需要的工具它不能再只是把它認為是一種主要學習科目以外的風華學院我要再次強調這件事情也已經很多學者專家告訴我們這件事情我相信國教院一定有相關的研究也請部長積極跟國教院保持討論好嗎"},{"start":589.472,"end":595.135,"text":"關於特教的部分也是很多委員一直關心那我辦公室呢過去一整年跟很多特教老師特教現場的家長還有學生我想要先談分散式資源班教學的困境因為時間有限"},{"start":612.345,"end":612.605,"text":"教育部"},{"start":642.005,"end":660.503,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":660.683,"end":676.037,"text":"所以空間的不足人力的不足經費的不足造成普特融合現場的困境越來越多我我絕對要說我絕對贊成普特融合可是在普特融合大理念之下現場老師的困境必須要被教育部看見必須要被國教署聽見"},{"start":677.058,"end":702.748,"text":"這個部分我覺得還有很多可以討論的部分也想要拜託部長後續持續在特教的議題上非常多千頭萬緒請拜託一起關心所以我們關於這個分散式資源班我們現在這邊提出有沒有可能朝一班一師一教室甚至充實相關教育經費還有五年內朝向當時修法最後說一比八邁進我覺得這是一個困難的事情但是我們必須要積極放在心上這可不可以請部長快速回應一下"},{"start":703.846,"end":717.985,"text":"我想這一個部分普特的融合這是我們希望這個也是有價值的必然要走的那怎麼樣讓老師在同一個空間裡邊透過這個分組的教學能不會"},{"start":719.506,"end":739.774,"text":"部長可是就在同一個空間有困難啦部長你自己在現場教過如果我今天教國文然後這個小孩過動戰我教他國文可是隔壁同一個空間裡面而且學校教室就這麼小不像我們這邊這麼大欸我覺得關於空間這件事情其實少子化除了很多明星學校之外很擠的學校之外其實很多學校都開始有相關空間釋出了"},{"start":741.135,"end":751.625,"text":"但是可能在學校的行政端他們沒有意識到這些特教老師在現場教學的困難所以我想部長我們絕對不要說我們認同同一個空間我覺得這個有很大的教學上的問題"},{"start":752.691,"end":755.652,"text":"我們來進一步來瞭解看怎麼樣來做一些調整。"},{"start":772.798,"end":793.875,"text":"市長您過去在擔任立委的時候您非常關心相關臺中的教育發展文化體育發展非常謝謝市長我想要先談一下關於臺中中心堂的部分那一直到最近我們聽到有可能有一些調整跟改變可是困境是其實臺體大接手之後關閉中心堂限制到目前為止其實很多地方人士我相信還有黃國書委員也都做過勘查"},{"start":795.917,"end":820.38,"text":"現在目前為止你覺得在這個題目上有沒有什麼可能性因為我自己觀察有台中歌劇院之後其實新的場地排擠了舊的場地或者是很多小型的民間表演藝術團體他們認為他們可以申請像這樣小型的場地像是大家一直想要學的韓國韓國確實有很多中小型的場地被活絡使用大家不用都去舉歌劇院所以我也想要問一下次長您身為台中出生的立委"},{"start":820.68,"end":832.687,"text":"你對於這一題目前你們有沒有什麼規劃有沒有機會邀請跨部會做一些討論跟協調對謝謝委員的關心我想有關中興堂因為他在他的這個土地所有權他是市政府那後來輾轉的這個使用"},{"start":836.269,"end":856.342,"text":"其實很多單位都使用過我想委員很了解包括我們國台教也用過那2012年之後呢又回歸給這個台體大那台體大畢竟是一個學校他對這個文化場館的運用事實上也沒有多餘的經費跟人力跟人才所以後來呢在初屆的過程裡面發生了一些狀況"},{"start":857.463,"end":878.511,"text":"那也因為安全的因素所以後來呢他就是換會那當然在地方的民意代表跟市政府的關心下那目前也在做一些這個研究那初步當然也有委員說可以來做電競使用不過我想他中心堂要怎麼使用我想我們還是尊重地方的市政府的所有權"},{"start":879.011,"end":879.131,"text":"謝謝市長謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b326a2233bf09aa2355186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24e91295010ed49b34a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:28:03 - 09:40:21","影片長度":"00:12:18","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":738,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:40:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:28:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.308468750000001,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.37596875,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.40971875,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.730343750000001,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.03784375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.792843750000003,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.156593750000006,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.962218750000005,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.30096875000001,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.75909375,"end":102.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.25284375000001,"end":120.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.04159375,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.34346875,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.25846875000002,"end":137.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.10159375,"end":142.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.48034375,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.84221875,"end":155.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.81596875000002,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.00846875000002,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.66159375,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.56534375,"end":252.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.58221875,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.56409375000004,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.74096875000004,"end":266.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.75721875,"end":268.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.81596875,"end":275.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.96284375,"end":290.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.95409375,"end":276.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.10534375000003,"end":280.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.87721875,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.26096875,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.13721875000005,"end":294.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.48284375000003,"end":294.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.92971875,"end":296.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.99721875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.03096875,"end":297.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.79034375000003,"end":297.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.88721875000005,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.92096875000004,"end":299.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.79846875000004,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.40159375,"end":321.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.53346875,"end":367.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.77346875,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.60034375000004,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.21034375000005,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.79221875,"end":371.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.36534375,"end":377.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.79471875,"end":437.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.24096875000004,"end":525.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.8390937500001,"end":625.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.51534375,"end":672.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.45346875,"end":672.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.46596875,"end":719.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":709.7765937500001,"end":712.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":714.07971875,"end":714.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":714.94034375,"end":715.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.03721875,"end":716.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":717.2353437500001,"end":728.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.8928437500001,"end":722.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.41596875,"end":722.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.5803437500001,"end":725.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.31409375,"end":726.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.30971875,"end":729.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.68471875,"end":732.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.7434687500001,"end":735.29159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.412,"end":6.876,"text":"謝謝主席 有請何部長好請何部長"},{"start":11.087,"end":39.12,"text":"部長早有關印度移工MOU的事情我在三月的時候有跟前部長許部長有做過相關的討論但當時我認為我們好不容易有個新的來源國我希望能夠是不是有機會來做G2G就是政府對政府的一個國家國對國的執聘制度那當時許部長是有承諾會做這件事情那我不曉得何部長您對於這件事情您的看法您的態度是如何"},{"start":39.8,"end":39.86,"text":" ﹝無言﹞"},{"start":61.036,"end":72.329,"text":"我麻煩部長看一下我這張投影片的右邊這個目前簽訂的是雙軌制但是仲介制仍然存在我們可以看一下過去十年的雙軌制下執聘不到1%0.28、0.4%簡直就是雙軌制下就是仲介制獨大"},{"start":81.34,"end":93.703,"text":"韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都開始跟進。韓國做了很久,日本也都"},{"start":103.308,"end":122.569,"text":"嗯就是我要強調第一個當然我們國內的職聘要有檢討的空間啊就像委員們關心的我們職聘中心的那個效率對等等這些我們都應該要更精進不過第二個我就是在強調你要考慮來源國因為這個是相對的問題因為印度平安心講"},{"start":123.81,"end":123.95,"text":" ﹝無言﹞"},{"start":147.125,"end":163.916,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":163.936,"end":189.481,"text":"那我們回到今天的這個主題有關這個巴斯亮表的這個部分那一定年齡以上我們本席就是完全的支持那我們本黨的這個主席在競選總統的時候也有提出這樣的一個政見那我要提的是另外一個狀況剛剛其實有一位委員也提到有很多家庭他家裡是有體力比較衰弱的這個長者他不一定有一個特定的診斷但是這些人他需要照顧"},{"start":190.401,"end":209.428,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":209.488,"end":209.528,"text":"議員：陳昭姿"},{"start":230.68,"end":247.516,"text":"嗯,嗯,就是家庭包容的開放齁,因為他的那個體系齁,跟那個看護工也不太一樣。家庭包容是完全符合家庭裡面的服務啦齁,那他的救安費也比較高,目前是五千塊啦齁,那所以他的門檻是比較高的,那"},{"start":248.217,"end":258.405,"text":"我剛剛提的齁所謂的這一個對亞健康與健康長子的多元陪伴服務其實就是為了解決這個問題因為其實這樣的話齁他可以這樣對那是自費市場自費市場可是這樣只可以讓"},{"start":267.052,"end":285.316,"text":"的價格親民啦他價格是會比較親民的啦那因為那比起家庭幫庸其實他所付出的成本 我知道我們現在很多就是在源頭先做預防嘛後續其實那個支出其實有時候是更大的我還是請部長能夠來好好研議這個部分好好好那謝謝部長我現在現在是不是請這個長照師的師長謝謝部長請回座好請祝師長謝謝"},{"start":297.063,"end":320.996,"text":"下一張。市長。市長好。市長麻煩你先記一下這一張標題。這個刊在天下雜誌。列陽下長者想提早回家卻算違規。長照2.0碼別制的一個防弊的這個困境。我想先知道先請問市長你知道現在有遇到就是所謂長照2.0實務上有遇到哪些困境嗎?您有沒有掌握?"},{"start":321.556,"end":344.002,"text":"嗯,我不曉得,因為看這樣的一個標題我不是那麼清楚,不過我猜測因為我們之前曾經有針對我們長照的日照中心有去規範一個日照中心必須要服務的時段要半日達到四小時那全日達到八小時的這個規定可是事實上那個是在規範這個服務提供單位你的服務不能壓縮到時間很短"},{"start":351.024,"end":365.697,"text":"那對於這個家裡面有這個子女要上班的來不及這個回家接長輩就是說等日照中醫有可能縮短服務時間那可能很早早的就把長輩送回家 是為了這個我接下來有四種形態的這個困境讓師長 那就師長可以一併再來做這樣"},{"start":372.142,"end":401.766,"text":" ﹝﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞﹞"},{"start":401.846,"end":425.08,"text":"但是他如果聽從長輩的這個要求的話,他會就很兩難。因為這個價格不一樣,核准的碼別不一樣,那他會被祭奠。但是長輩如果他不下床,其實他也無法勉強他了。就是說我知道當初是為了防避或是防治,甚至有些在聯會拘捕員做更多的事情。但是事實上就會遇到這種沒有辦法回應當下的需求。"},{"start":426.881,"end":443.727,"text":"這是第一個我把這個幾個困境我收集來的困境讓市長了解一下他困境二就是說這個馬別的修改實在是缺乏彈性譬如說有個居府員他曾經反映他本來是要協助洗澡但是到他家的時候因為他同住家人不在暗煮肚子餓他希望能夠幫忙備餐但是居府員並沒有被核准這個項目"},{"start":448.089,"end":454.915,"text":"那為了修改一個馬別我想市長也了解居服員要通知督導員督導員要通知各管事各管事都很忙的要當下有時間回應喔那他要在兩個小時內這個服務執行時間如果錯過了那就沒有辦法所以後來這個居服員他就還是說要幫這個案主他們來備餐"},{"start":468.268,"end":490.879,"text":" ﹖﹖﹖﹖"},{"start":491.039,"end":495.081,"text":"那現在各個縣市各個這個主管局認定不一樣那各層級又有不同的行政裁量權導致第一線的人他完全沒有辦法適從請問市長你覺得什麼叫陪同外出如果我在這邊舉例請問陪同外出是從現在我們在群選樓八樓那是到群選樓一樓呢還是在立法院大門口呢還是要走到對面的這個兒童醫院的這個門口才算呢那對個案來說從家裡到大門口這是一樓中庭呢還是要走到社區大門呢還是要對面巷口"},{"start":520.014,"end":548.355,"text":"這個認定,這個督導員跟這個各管事他們認定都不一樣欸這樣對第一個這個第一線的工作人員真的是無所適從那次我還有第四種困境第四種困境就是軍賜軍實化的這個制度非常的僵硬忽略不同的需求當然當時是為了管理方便或是為了防弊所以用軍賜軍實也就是每週平均是用平均時間來分配但是我要告訴司長第一個個案剛出院的時候是非常的黃金期"},{"start":549.195,"end":570.284,"text":"從初月的時候那個時候需要密集的照顧因為才能夠好好的就恢復但是在目前的制度下他是不允許後面的這個額度他必須平均的分攤在每一週但是事實上他在前幾週可能最需要的就是照顧這是第一種狀況那第二個家務的服務是規定半小時或一小時但是很多案主家庭他們其實很髒亂"},{"start":572.005,"end":597.944,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏�"},{"start":598.264,"end":616.608,"text":"再回到剛剛我看的第一章那個地方就是說阿嬤外出啦那長照2.0的陪伴項目是以30分鐘為單位但是那天是很熱的所以天下雜誌照了那張照片阿嬤不到30分鐘想回家那照專呢就是照顧管理專員他說時間沒到啊他懷疑這個居服員想要偷懶啊所以現在怎麼辦呢所以市長我剛剛提出了四種困境那是不是能夠市長就簡單的回應一下謝謝"},{"start":627.45,"end":648.317,"text":"好,謝謝委員提出了我們長照第一線確實有一些狀況不是制度使然而有可能是因為相關的一些人為的關係那我在這邊也特別說明像你覺得第一種案例這種樣態本來核定是屬於要要沐浴要到浴室去沐浴後來改成用插藻"},{"start":648.737,"end":668.392,"text":"那這個部分本來就是在A個管他在跟案家討論的時候其實也要因應個案的一個需求他核定的時候不應該完全只核定到浴室洗澡這個碼別那事實上只要在一剛開始照顧計畫在核定的時候把這些可能考量到需要的碼別都能夠考量進去的話就不會有發生剛剛您提到的這個問題"},{"start":672.535,"end":675.396,"text":"對對對包括说沒有合定備餐所以家裡突然發生需要備餐就不備允許這個都是剛剛提的在這一樣態裡面所以在照顧計劃擬定的過程其實案家要充分的把他們家的一個狀況一定要說出來"},{"start":689.722,"end":700.852,"text":"那一個管才有辦法跟案家討論到底哪些馬別是你有可能會用到的那剛剛前面提到有一些樣態比如說他真的後來他就是沒有核定然後他只是在床上擦澡那申報的時候他就不能申報沐浴服務他申報擦澡是沒有問題的也不會被記點所以這個概念上大概就是服務提供單位也必須了解"},{"start":716.025,"end":717.025,"text":"陳昭姿委員接下來我們請林月琴委員發言。"}]}},{"id":"152986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b31e756b149782ddc8442d3172de404894e1548db29109d24e91a35537b01a31fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"09:31:49 - 09:39:45","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":476,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:39:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:31:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":154,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（9時31分）謝謝主席，本席邀請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，今天很多人都來關心詐騙的問題，我想你剛上任，大家一定也期許數發部未來在打詐方面要有相當的作為，那你也把打詐列為你非常重要的工作，所以你都有提出打詐專法等等之類。你覺得現在詐騙最嚴重的是在哪裡？是網路詐騙嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：就是廣告，就是假名人、假投資。"],["林委員俊憲：假投資嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員俊憲：根據我們刑事警察局、警政署的統計資料，現在投資詐騙案就是騙你來投資、買股票，大概占了31%，可能是因為所謂投資股票就是會賺錢，這是人性的貪念，現在有很多廣告都是投資詐騙，竟然占了三成，去年就有一萬一千多件，比前年多了快80%，所以成長最多的就是這種騙你來投資的詐騙，尤其是用一些社會的名人當作誘餌，那你覺得現在最大的問題是什麼？為什麼這種網路上的詐騙廣告這麼猖獗？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，當然我們有幾個平臺，就是剛剛講的Meta、facebook、LINE還有像Google這些平臺，我想有很多廣告是從那邊出來的，我剛才有特別強調，就是我們希望在打詐專法通過之後，這些廣告平臺商會在臺灣設法律代表或是落地，如果他們能夠配合我們政府來做打詐工作，把這些杜絕之後，我相信所謂名人廣告各方面應該會大量減少，而且我們現在有電子簽章法，然後在數位簽章通過之後，我們可以要求登廣告第一個一定要有數位簽章，一定要經KYC確認是本人，包括廣告投放跟出資者都要能夠……"],["林委員俊憲：現在法律沒有通過以前你就沒辦法管他們嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：在法律沒有通過以前，我們現在的作法是基本上……"],["林委員俊憲：立法、修法需要一段時間，之前就是因為這個數位服務法卡了那麼久，所以你現在不能說我們必須要有法律通過你才能做事情。"],["黃部長彥男：跟委員報告，以前的通報是我們民眾打165，然後165處理，這個時程可能要隔了半天、一天以上的時間才會通報facebook去處理，現在我們剛剛講的這個打詐通報查詢網會即時。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，你現在要建立一個打詐的平臺啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對，然後能夠快速通報。"],["林委員俊憲：你是準備要取代165詐騙專線嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：不是取代165，那個還是要做，現在因為疑似詐騙跟真正被詐騙是兩回事，所以疑似詐騙就可以到通報網來查詢。"],["林委員俊憲：我來跟你說，你現在最重要還是源頭管理，你現在是他律嘛！你現在講的是政府要去約束這些平臺，但是所謂的打詐第一個要做的就是這些平臺要自律。"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：可是目前他們完全不做相關的事情。根據我們警政署統計的資料，我們把詐騙廣告拉下來的數量是非常大，好幾萬筆廣告通通拉下來，但是你拉下來以後，沒多久它又會上來，而且廣告內容一模一樣，表示這些平臺都是被動在處理，當我們發現這是詐騙，你通報它，它會做處理，但是新的上來它不管啦！你有聽懂我的意思嗎？因為它要賺錢啊！這些平臺都忘記他們還是有社會責任，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我們應該要求他們現在要先自律，平臺應該要先去核實、要去瞭解這些，尤其是商業廣告，像你剛剛講的那種實名制，政治廣告要不要實名制？"],["黃部長彥男：所有的廣告都要實名制沒錯，對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：現在沒有，現在只有政治廣告啊！"],["黃部長彥男：現在政治要。"],["林委員俊憲：現在只有政治廣告要認證，那商業廣告為什麼不要？詐騙在商業廣告嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們在打詐專法通過之後，他們也是……"],["林委員俊憲：對，你現在是無法可管。"],["黃部長彥男：對，現在是無法，但是希望很快就有。"],["林委員俊憲：你應該要求這些平臺業者，對不對？數發部如果兇一點，他們就怕你了！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們已經在做……"],["林委員俊憲：因為社會公理站在你們這一邊嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：每年發生這麼多詐騙案件，如果你們硬一點，他們就……"],["黃部長彥男：我跟委員報告……"],["林委員俊憲：臺灣又不是沒有法律的地方，真的是亂來！"],["黃部長彥男：我跟委員報告，我會常常找他們來我辦公室喝咖啡，然後進行道德勸說，我們會繼續建立跟他們的關係，希望他們能夠……"],["林委員俊憲：如果他不改善，不是只有邀他來喝咖啡，你要跑去找他算帳。"],["黃部長彥男：沒有，我還會威脅他，不只是喝咖啡，還會威脅，我會跟他們講，你們如果不配合，我以後就跟大家宣傳，以後在臉書上看到的廣告都不能……"],["林委員俊憲：你注意看，我就給你做一個對比，拉下來的詐騙廣告很多，跟上去的差不多。"],["黃部長彥男：這個東西可以用剛剛講的道德勸說，在法規通過之前，用道德勸說、威脅，看看能不能配合我們。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這些平臺業者現在怎麼對付你？就是你有通報，好，我就配合政府拉下來，但是新的廣告來，錢送上來，我廣告費照收，甚至有些詐騙廣告的內容一模一樣還是照上，這樣你怎麼抓得完？對不對？既然我們的政治廣告都要求實名制了，未來商業廣告也是……"],["黃部長彥男：一定要，這個我們同意。"],["林委員俊憲：因為已經發生了那麼多的詐騙案件，是不是這樣子？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我想我們從法規、從剛剛講的很多……我們私底下都可以去要求，希望他們配合度高一點，然後看看所謂的名人的詐騙廣告或是各式各樣在平臺業者的廣告能夠大量減少，那希望……"],["林委員俊憲：另外，網路上的內容其實不是只有詐騙，詐騙以外的還有很多，例如假訊息、兒少暴力、性侵害等等，你現在要處理詐騙以外的嗎？你怎麼處理其他的內容？"],["黃部長彥男：將來就是一樣，就是說我們打詐的這個……"],["林委員俊憲：你預計那個數位服務法大概什麼時候要通過？"],["黃部長彥男：數位服務法……"],["林委員俊憲：就是你的打詐專法啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對，打詐專法在將來這些……"],["林委員俊憲：歐盟大概是全世界最早通過數位服務法的地方，你看今年歐盟的數位服務法開第一槍，就是去調查Twitter，因為Twitter在以色列跟巴勒斯坦戰爭的時候散播不實的訊息，你知道吧！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員俊憲：也就是說，政府該管的不是只有詐騙，現在因為詐騙最嚴重，所以我們大家當然關注點在這裡，但是還有其他很多我們應該要處理的問題，你必須要同步，就是我們的法律也必須要跟得上，我希望在你上任以後應該儘速推動相關的立法工作，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：跟社會以及國會議員也應該要多做溝通。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，林俊憲委員發言完畢。部長，先等一下，剛才不是威脅業者，應該是督促相關業者，請你更正一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.71846875,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.71409375,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.840343750000001,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.976593750000003,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.71784375,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.56159375,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.07596875,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.48909375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.978468750000005,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":39.180968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.87284375,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.12159375,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.42909375,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.445968750000006,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.81221875,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.22534375,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.01346875,"end":61.101593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.523468750000006,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.329093750000006,"end":66.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.95284375,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.96534375,"end":73.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.34846875000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.13721875,"end":77.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.70221875,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.52909375,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.99221875,"end":88.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.92409375000001,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.49346875,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.50159375000001,"end":97.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.00721875,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.41221875000001,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.73284375,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.47096875000001,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.24971875000001,"end":147.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.55659375000002,"end":150.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.42096875000001,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.03221875,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.04034375,"end":159.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.61784375000002,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.29284375,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.81159375000001,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.69721875000002,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.54784375,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.62721875,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.93471875,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.60346875000002,"end":198.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.17284375000003,"end":205.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.53034375000001,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.22159375,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.39409375000002,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.35596875000002,"end":222.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.23659375000003,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.87284375000002,"end":230.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.80909375000002,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.88471875000002,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.28096875000003,"end":239.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.97659375,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.72721875000002,"end":244.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.90846875000003,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.95471875,"end":245.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.22034375,"end":246.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.67596875,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.48971875,"end":251.01284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.54034375,"end":250.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.01284375000003,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.62034375000002,"end":251.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.75534375,"end":262.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.31471875,"end":266.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.53784375000004,"end":266.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.70221875000004,"end":267.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.71909375,"end":272.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.98034375000003,"end":270.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.00971875,"end":272.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.81534375,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.84909375,"end":272.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.88284375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.03471875,"end":275.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.07221875,"end":277.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.59096875,"end":277.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.48534375,"end":279.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.49784375,"end":279.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.90284375000005,"end":282.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.13034375,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.19784375,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.06159375000004,"end":290.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.00659375000004,"end":291.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.86721875,"end":291.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.88409375000003,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.93471875,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.29221875,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.20346875,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.85284375000003,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.29159375,"end":304.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.91159375,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.39659375,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.72971875,"end":318.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.13471875000005,"end":308.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.91784375000003,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":324.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.38409375000003,"end":334.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.23596875000004,"end":338.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.07096875,"end":338.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.45909375,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.47596875000005,"end":347.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.81221875,"end":352.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.00534375,"end":357.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.27471875000003,"end":357.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.34221875000003,"end":357.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.59534375000004,"end":358.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.23221875,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.67471875,"end":363.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.24409375000005,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.54784375,"end":365.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.25659375000004,"end":365.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.16784375000003,"end":366.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.87221875,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":371.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.97284375000004,"end":372.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.80784375,"end":390.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.04159375,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.49284375,"end":395.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.58096875,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.33596875,"end":400.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.72784375000003,"end":401.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.09909375,"end":403.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.35596875000005,"end":406.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.44409375000004,"end":410.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.69659375000003,"end":415.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.98721875,"end":417.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.11784375,"end":416.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.61971875,"end":419.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.26096875,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.42096875000004,"end":420.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.80909375000005,"end":422.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.82596875,"end":422.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.31096875000003,"end":422.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.58096875,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.52596875,"end":426.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.12471875,"end":429.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.71909375,"end":432.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.32596875,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.26534375000006,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.63221875000005,"end":446.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.54284375000003,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.88034375,"end":451.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.58909375,"end":453.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.54659375000006,"end":475.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.50659375000004,"end":467.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.08846875,"end":471.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.57721875000004,"end":474.74159375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.918,"end":4.464,"text":"謝謝主席。本期邀請我們數法部黃部長。請黃部長。"},{"start":13.004,"end":35.373,"text":"部長今天很多人都在關心那個大片的問題我想你剛上任大家一定也期許數發部在未來打詐方面要有相當的作為那你也把打詐好像列為你非常重要的工作所以你特別提出打詐的方法等等之類的那你覺得現在詐騙最嚴重的是在哪裡網路詐騙"},{"start":40.229,"end":66.075,"text":"就是廣告就是那個假名人啊這些東西假投資對假投資嘛那根據我們行政檢察局警政署的統計資料啊現在投資詐騙案啊就是騙你來買投資啦買股票啊大概佔了31%啦可能是因為啊所謂投資股票就是會有賺錢嘛就人性的貪戀啊所以現在的很多廣告啊都是以投資詐騙啊智能佔了三成"},{"start":67.987,"end":93.681,"text":"比前年,去年就11000多件比去年比前年多了快80%所以成長最多就是這種所謂騙你來投資詐騙尤其用名人用一些社會的名人當作誘餌那現在你覺得最大問題是什麼為什麼這種網路網路廣告詐騙廣告這麼猖獗"},{"start":98.018,"end":121.696,"text":"那個 報告委員 那個當然我們有幾個平臺 那個就是剛剛講像Meta的那個Facebook 然後Line 然後像Google這些平臺 那我想這個很多廣告是從這邊出來的啦 那我們當然就是說 我剛剛特別強調就是說我們希望打造專法通過之後 這些廣告平臺商會在台灣設法律代表或是落地啦"},{"start":122.156,"end":123.096,"text":"那現在法例沒有通過以前你就沒辦法管他嗎?"},{"start":150.667,"end":177.748,"text":"法律沒有通過以前我們現在的做法是這個基本上就立法修法需要一段時間啊之前就是因為這個數位服務法卡了那麼久啊對所以你現在不能說我們必須要有法律通過啦你才能做事情所以以前的通報是這樣子跟委員報告以前通報是我們民眾報告到165然後165處理這個時程可能要隔個比如說半天一天以上時間才會通報這個這個向Facebook去處理那我們現在這個剛剛講這個打造通報這個查詢網"},{"start":180.73,"end":183.251,"text":"你現在最重要還是源頭管理啦你現在是他律嘛你現在講的是政府要去約束這些平台"},{"start":206.576,"end":227.996,"text":"但是在所謂的打詐第一個要做的就是這些平台要自律目前他們完全不做相關的事情根據我們政府檢證署統計的資料我們把詐騙的廣告拉下來那數量是非常大好幾萬筆廣告通通拉下來但是你拉下來以後沒多久他又會上來"},{"start":228.917,"end":249.108,"text":"而且廣告內容一模一樣表示說這些平台啊都是被動在處理當我們發現這是詐騙你通報他他會做啦但是新的上來他不管啦你聽我意思嗎他要賺錢啊但這些平台都忘記他還是有社會責任啊"},{"start":251.887,"end":266.352,"text":"所以我們應該要求他們你現在要先自律啦你平台應該要先去核實要去了解這些尤其是商業廣告啦目前你剛講的那種實名制政治廣告要不要實名制"},{"start":267.785,"end":289.786,"text":"所有廣告都要實名證沒錯現在沒有啦現在只有政治廣告啊現在只有政治廣告要認證啦那商業廣告為什麼不要?詐騙在商業廣告嘛所以我們就打詐狀況通過之後他們也對你現在雖然是無法可管對現在是無法但是期望很快但是你應該要求這些平台業者啦"},{"start":291.152,"end":317.799,"text":"對不對?你數話不像一個...你如果還怕他就怕你了。報告委員我已經在做我這個...你社會公理站在你們這一邊嘛。沒錯沒錯。每天發生很多詐騙的案件。你都怕他對不對?我跟委員報告齁。台灣又不是沒有法律的地方。我會常常找他們來我辦公室喝咖啡啦。然後道德勸說啦齁。那這個我們會繼續建立跟他們的關心希望他們..."},{"start":319.019,"end":321,"text":"我會跟他們講你們如果不配合我以後就跟大家宣傳以後在臉書上看到廣告都不會了"},{"start":335.285,"end":363.335,"text":"他拉下來的照片廣告很多啦跟上去的也差不多啦就說這個東西可以用敢講道德在法規通過之前道德勸說威脅然後看看能不能就是所以這些平台業者他現在怎麼對付你就是你有通報好我就配合你政府拉下來但是呢新的廣告來錢送上來我廣告費照收一括照片的幾乎啦甚至有些內容一模一樣的照上那你怎麼抓得了"},{"start":365.516,"end":390.267,"text":"所以既然我們的政治廣告都要求實名制了,未來商業廣告也是?一定要,對,這我已經同意。因為已經發生了那麼多的詐騙案件嘛,是不是這樣子?對,我想就是我們從法規從剛剛講就是這個從很多的這個私底下我們都可以去要求啦,希望他們配合度高一點這樣,然後看看這個所謂的這個人民跟詐騙廣告或是各式各樣在平台業者廣告能夠"},{"start":392.128,"end":418.464,"text":"此外網絡上的內容其實不是只有詐騙 詐騙以外的還有很多例如假訊息、兒少暴力、性侵害等等這些 那詐騙以外你現在要處理嘛 那其他的內容你怎麼處理 那個將來一樣就是說我們這個剛剛打詐這個 處理那個數位服務法那你說大概什麼時候通過 數位服務法 你預計的"},{"start":421.132,"end":432.621,"text":"拜託打大專法打大專法將來這些商都要...現在歐盟大概是全世界最早通過數位服務法的地方了你看到今年"},{"start":434.503,"end":449.819,"text":"我們的數位服務法開第一槍就是去調查推特啦推特散播不實的訊息在那個以色列跟巴勒斯坦那個的那個戰爭的時候你知道吧也就是說所謂的政府該管的不是只有詐騙"},{"start":452.222,"end":472.362,"text":"現在因為詐騙最嚴重所以我們大家當然關注點在這裡但是我希望你會還有其他很多我們應該要處理的你必須同步的就是我們的法律也必須要跟得上我希望在你上任以後應該盡速推動相關的立法工作好不好跟社會以及跟國會議員應該多做溝通好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b32be8e3d9166dec6c442d3172de404894e1548db29109d24ea736555d495dface5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:23:11 - 09:31:37","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":506,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:31:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:23:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時23分）主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員早。"],["林委員國成：黃部長剛接任，也是你第一場的委員答詢，本席一向對從產業界來接政務官的人，基本上都抱持肯定的態度。在此我要請教部長，因為你從產業界來，我要請教你，今天的報告補充理由（簡報）跟這一本業務報告，到底要用哪一本？"],["黃部長彥男：那本……"],["林委員國成：沒關係，你不用緊張啦！部長，我們是來探討問題的。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員國成：我要請教，這一本（業務報告）你有沒有看過？"],["黃部長彥男：有，看兩遍。"],["林委員國成：那這些（簡報）是濃縮版？"],["黃部長彥男：對，這是把業務報告前幾頁的重點整合起來，因為我們要做的事情很多，我把重點……"],["林委員國成：好。部長，我告訴你，這一本（業務報告）我都拜讀過，就跟唐鳳部長的報告70%完全一模一樣。本席非常在乎，也一直在提醒，我記得NCC就被我退過一次，到現在都還沒有補。部長，我只是告訴你，這一篇裡面只有第一項、第八項、第九項是新的文字更改，其他幾乎一模一樣。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，因為施政要延續，所以我們不可能……"],["林委員國成：是，我知道施政要延續，但是新的部長跟舊的部長作法會不一樣嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員國成：就像你這一本（簡報），你就談得很清楚，這是你的施政方向，所以我要建議部長，我要建議部長，沒有苛責的意思，我希望你就這個濃縮版（簡報）再補一份書面資料給各委員，這一本反而是清清楚楚的，知道黃部長要做的跟唐部長完全不一樣，不一樣之處在於你的三支箭跟唐部長完全不一樣。其實我滿在乎這個風氣，延續性的政策我贊同，但是不要這樣一字不漏地抄，這不是一個經營企業或者一個部會應有的，這點我給部長一個建議，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝，這個我們會……"],["林委員國成：所以希望，你這一本很明確，是跟委員來報告未來你要做的事情，接下來要審預算，你叫我們如何去支持你的預算？很簡單，就是你的方向跟你的報告，我們認為可行，我們就支持，不是嗎？所以，部長，不用緊張，我們要探討一個理由，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，多謝，多謝，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：另外一個我還是鼓勵，你在產官學都做過，所以我還滿希望部長在這個部分要發揮你的長才。我一再提醒政務官，不能用政黨色彩在做老百姓的事，立法委員也是在做老百姓的事，部長也是在做老百姓的事，所以我真的滿期許黃部長，在這個部分真的要為老百姓來做事。我看到你的報告，基本上當然你有你的新做法。","另外一個我要跟部長探討的就是詐騙猖狂的部分，當然因為你的三支箭裡面確確實實有這個部分，關於詐騙這部分，我還是覺得現在，包括檢察官，包括任何老百姓，大家的感覺，部長你可以看到，近5年來的詐騙案日新月異，跟以前打打電話去詐騙相比，現在不是喔，只要簡訊傳給你，你一按就被騙，詐騙的方法是日新月異的，所以，我認為數位部要比他們更先進，這是我個人的主張跟建議。我不曉得部長針對這部分應該要如何來應對，是不是我時間給你，你可以說明一下嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。我的三支箭裡面，第一支箭就是打詐。打詐這部分，我提的第一個就是，我們今天有一個工具，就是我們的打詐法已經出了行政院，希望大院委員能夠支持讓它趕快立法通過。通過之後，對於打詐，我們至少有法可罰，也可以管理，比如說廣告平臺商必須落地以及實名制等等，我們都可以強迫他們進行。另外一個重要的工作是，我們會有一個打詐的通報查詢網，它的好處就是當我們收到一個不管是訊息、email或簡訊，我們若不確定，把這個東西貼在我們打詐的通報查詢網，我們會用AI的技術馬上看裡面的內容做研判，如果有可能是詐騙的話，我們會通報相關的單位趕快進行調查或是處理，這樣的話民眾也可以看到，就是不要輕易相信收到的任何訊息，如果不確定，就到我們的打詐查詢網去看是不是已經有人通報過。因為打詐有幾個步驟，識詐是第一步，如果我們知道這是詐騙訊息，我們就不會被騙，所以我們會加強識詐的工作，提供這個服務給民眾，讓民眾可以很快的做一個判斷。"],["林委員國成：部長，這裡面有兩個問題。打詐當然就要追根究底，現在有國內不管是LINE也好、什麼也好，有幾個管道，這些是設在國際，在臺灣我們是沒有辦法追的，第一，這部分你如何去突破？第二，因為打詐的責任，數位的部分是你負責，但是治安調查的部分是內政部負責……"],["黃部長彥男：是跨部會合作。"],["林委員國成：是跨部會的這個部分，所以你如何去把它整合或者建議行政院要有一個專責的指揮機構，這個很重要，不要各人做各人的，這樣到最後在所有的法條過了以後還是前功盡棄，請部長回答這兩個問題。"],["黃部長彥男：我們本來就是跨部會的合作，那行政院的層級已經有一個打詐的辦公室，但是我們剛剛也講，我們這個打詐查詢網可以讓我們能夠很快地通報包括警政署、包括其他部會，一起來進行打詐的工作，希望能夠很快速做處理，加速我們處理打詐的時程，讓詐騙集團能夠詐騙的時間減少很多。"],["林委員國成：另外一個就是國外的這些LINE或者臉書這個部分。"],["黃部長彥男：對，打詐專法會要求這些人在臺灣要落地或者有法律代表，對於這些人，他們如果不配合打詐的工作，我們可以對他們罰款，希望用這個方式來強迫他們跟我們配合。"],["林委員國成：好，部長，這樣我大概瞭解了，但是剛剛我所質詢的，你剛剛所做的簡單報告寫得比你的書面報告更清楚，我希望你補給我們委員會所有的委員，讓我們更瞭解，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們馬上，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：那我也期許部長要好好地來把這份工作做好，因為打詐不管是幾支箭，有成果就有箭，沒有成果就完全沒有箭，我還是期許你，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，林國成委員發言完畢。","現在請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.46034375,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.39971875,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.54221875,"end":24.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.617843750000002,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.23784375,"end":34.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.080343750000004,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.290968750000005,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.83909375,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.85971875,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.67784375,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.37346875,"end":51.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.88784375,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":55.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.84909375,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.69284375,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.77284375000001,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.15221875,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.96971875,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.18471875,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.20159375,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.10784375,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.08221875000001,"end":77.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.41971875,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.43659375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.02721875,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.70846875000001,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.44971875,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.37659375000001,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.32471875,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.12096875,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.27034375000002,"end":169.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.75971875000002,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.55346875,"end":194.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.95409375,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.94471875000002,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.88534375,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.79471875000002,"end":216.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.21784375000001,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.24409375,"end":268.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.81596875,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":375.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.73596875000004,"end":378.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.57096875,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.87284375,"end":390.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.92346875000004,"end":397.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.69034375,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.86721875,"end":429.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.28034375000004,"end":455.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.04846875000004,"end":459.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.59659375,"end":458.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.91284375000004,"end":472.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.15971875,"end":482.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.72346875000005,"end":505.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.19534375,"end":488.95034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.46721875000003,"end":505.04909375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.442,"end":6.702,"text":"請我們黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":18.097,"end":35.663,"text":"黃部長因為剛接任也是第一場的委員答詢但是我一向本席對產業界來接政務官基本上我都持有肯定的態度那在這裡"},{"start":37.355,"end":51.985,"text":"我要請教我們部長因為過去你在產業界來我要請教你一個就是今天的報告補充理由跟這一本的業務報告"},{"start":54.096,"end":77.689,"text":"到底要用哪一本?沒關係,不用緊張啦,保證我們是來探討問題我要請教你這一本有沒有看過?有,看兩遍那這些是榮收版對,這個是把重點在業務報告的前期也就是把因為我們要做的事情很多那我把重點未來的前期部長,我告訴你這一本我都拜讀過"},{"start":79.471,"end":96.407,"text":"就跟唐鳳部長70%完全一模一樣本席非常在乎也一直在提醒我記得NCC就被我退過一次到現在都還沒有補部長我只是告訴你這一篇裡面"},{"start":97.208,"end":117.693,"text":"只有第1項、第8項、第9項是新的文字更改其他一模一樣計報告委員因為施政要延續所以我們不可能是我知道啦施政要延續但是新的部長跟舊的部長作法會不一樣嘛就像你這一本"},{"start":118.653,"end":133.794,"text":"您講得很清楚這是你要施政的這些方向所以我要建議部長沒有苛責的意識我希望你這個榮收板再補一份書面資料給各"},{"start":134.375,"end":156.727,"text":"委員,這一本反而是清清楚楚啊知道黃部長要做的跟那個唐部長完全不一樣啊所以這裡不一樣就是你的三支箭跟那個唐部長完全不一樣啊其實我蠻在乎這個風氣也就是不要延續性的政策我贊同"},{"start":157.788,"end":187.088,"text":"但是不要一字不漏的這樣去抄這不是一個經營企業或者一個部會應有的所以這點我給部長一個建議好不好所以希望你這個很明確未來你要做的事情是跟委員來報告接下來要審預算所以你叫我們如何去支持你的預算很簡單就是你的方向跟你的報告我們認為可行我們就支持啊"},{"start":187.768,"end":188.529,"text":"不是嗎?"},{"start":188.529,"end":194.213,"text":"所以部長,就是好像說不用緊張啦,這我們就要探討一個理由啦,好不好?"},{"start":194.213,"end":211.065,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝。那另外一個齁,另外一個,我還是這樣啦齁,我還是鼓勵啊,你是產官學都做過,所以我還是蠻希望部長在這個部分要發揮你的長才,我一再提醒政務官,"},{"start":211.826,"end":233.969,"text":"不能用政黨色彩在做老百姓的事立法委員也是在做老百姓的事部長也是在做老百姓的事所以在這個部分我真的蠻期待我們黃部長在這個部分真的要為老百姓來做事那我看到你的報告基本上當然也有你的新的做法"},{"start":235.85,"end":255.335,"text":"另外一個我又要跟部長來探討的就是詐騙礦場的這個部分那當然因為你這個三字件這裡面確確實實有這個部分那這個部分我還是覺得現在包括檢察官"},{"start":256.314,"end":284.044,"text":"包括任何老百姓的感覺在這個部分已經大家可以看部長你可以看我們近5年來的詐騙案子他日益跟一心喔他完全他的態度跟以前打打電話去詐騙的動作現在不是喔只要簡信傳給你一案就被騙所以他是日新夜異的這些"},{"start":284.884,"end":305.077,"text":"的那個方法所以我要認為數位部要比他們更先進這是我個人的主張跟個人的建議所以啊在這個部分我不曉得我們部長針對這個部分應該要如何來應對是不是我時間給你你可以說明一下嗎好謝謝委員"},{"start":306.077,"end":328.793,"text":"我在我的打那個三支箭裡面第一支箭就打炸那打炸我體驗第一個就是說我們今天有個工具就是我們打炸法已經出了行政院希望委員能夠支持那趕快通立法通過通過之後我們會對這個這個打炸至少有法可華了可以可以管理他們會這個比如說比如說廣告平台上必須落地等等等會實名制都我們都可以強迫他們進行"},{"start":329.594,"end":353.887,"text":"那我們另外的重要工作是我們會有一個打詐的通報查詢網這個好處就是說我們收到一個不管是訊息、email或簡訊我們若不確定把這個東西把它貼在我們這樣打詐的這個網我們會用AI的技術馬上做研判看裡面內容如果有可能是這個詐騙的話我們會通報相關的單位趕快進行調查或是處理那這樣的話民眾也可以看到說"},{"start":354.847,"end":375.225,"text":"如果你不要輕易相信收到了任何訊息如果不確定就到我們的打炸查詢網去看是不是已經有人通報過或者希望能夠在所謂的因為我們打炸有幾個步驟試炸是第一步如果我們知道這是詐騙訊息我們就不會被騙所以我們會加強試炸工作從這個服務來提供給民眾做一個很快的判斷"},{"start":375.785,"end":399.108,"text":"好部長這裡面有兩個問題打詐當然就是要追根就底現在有國內的不管是LINE也好什麼也好有幾個管道這個是國際設在國際在台灣我們是沒有辦法追的這個第一你如何去突破第二因為打詐的責任"},{"start":400.99,"end":426.562,"text":"數位的部分是你負責但是治安調查的部分是內政部負責是跨部會的這個部分所以你如何去把它整合或者建議行政院要有一個指揮專責機構這個很重要喔不要做個人做個人這樣到最後所有的所有的法條過了以後還是前功盡棄這個部分這兩個請部長回答"},{"start":429.423,"end":450.97,"text":"我們本來就是一個跨部會的合作那行政院這個成績我們已經有個打詐的一個這樣的辦公室但是我們剛剛講這個打詐這個我們這個打詐查詢網會讓我們很快的能夠通報整個包括警政署包括其他部會來進行打詐的工作然後希望能夠很快速做處理來加速我們處理這個打詐的這個這樣的一個時程讓打詐的這個能夠詐騙時間減少很多"},{"start":455.171,"end":471.959,"text":"另外一個就是國外的這些LINE或者臉書這個部分打詐專法會要求這些人在台灣要落地或者有法律代表我們會跟這些人就是他們如果不配合包括打詐工作我們可以對他罰款那希望用這個方式來強迫他們跟著我們配合"},{"start":472.319,"end":486.17,"text":"好部長我這樣大概啦我還是了解但是剛剛我所執行的我希望你剛剛的簡便的報告這個寫的比這個你的報告書裡面更清楚我希望你補給我們委員會所有的委員"},{"start":488.632,"end":488.772,"text":"林國成"}]}},{"id":"152984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b39e7a1809fca36664442d3172de404894e1548db29109d24ead7dde790f3a16825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"09:16:26 - 09:22:55","影片長度":"00:06:29","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":389,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:22:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:16:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時16分）麻煩主席邀請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好。部長，其實以我們選區民意代表來說，選區民意代表最關心的應該就是選區內網路普及度的問題，數位發展部有訂定一些辦法，就是針對法定的偏遠地區有一些補助的要點，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：這些補助的要點我不曉得您上任後有沒有同仁跟您報告，怎樣叫做法定的偏遠地區？"],["黃部長彥男：委員早。偏遠地區的服務普及，汐止東山里……第一個，我想fundamental原則，我們希望數位落差能夠縮減，所以各個鄉里應該都有很好的數位建設，包括網路的建設，這是我們推動的主要方向，未來我上任也是朝這一個方向去努力。"],["廖委員先翔：是，原則上我們現在的辦法大概是用行政區的平均人口來當作一個劃設的要點，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：但是其實如果有接觸過地方民政、里政的政府體系應該很清楚，其實同一個行政區的人口密度也會有相當大的落差，就像新北市有板橋區，新北市也有平溪區，在每一個行政區下面，像林口可能一個里就兩萬多人了，有些像平溪或者是比較偏鄉的地方，它一個里可能就幾百人而已或一百多個人，所以如果單純以行政區來做為補助的一個單位的話，可能會發現一個行政區內，有的地方人口很密集，有些地方人口非常稀少，然後它的通訊網路是非常脆弱的。我不曉得這個補助要點或者是補助對象的基準有沒有放寬的可能性？不是放寬啦！應該是因地制宜的調整。"],["黃部長彥男：這個我請我們的司長來做一個更進一步的說明。"],["鄭司長明宗：謝謝委員，就以委員的選區汐止為例，剛剛委員其實說得很好，我們針對普及服務的機制，已經從鄉鎮，因為剛剛委員所說的，很多區雖然人口低於或高於平均密度五分之一，但是其實很多村里是低於的，所以剛剛委員說的，我們其實已經公告兩個月了，我們會修正普及服務管理機制辦法，然後down到村里來，比如剛剛部長所說的……"],["廖委員先翔：所以是……"],["鄭司長明宗：以汐止來講，東山里就會擴大，不只是東山里而已。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以之後會再調整嘛？"],["鄭司長明宗：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。接下來請問另外一個問題，我前一陣子也有去太平島，在這次你們的業務概況報告裡面也有提到太平島的通訊，在113年4月的時候有提供太平島SES的中軌衛星訊號，強化島上的通訊衛星。同樣地，你們在報告裡面的第12頁有提到，有關於軌道衛星的申請，SES目前主要是愛爾康資料處理股份有限公司有申請許可，而中華電信股份有限公司是以OneWeb的衛星來當作衛星的合作對象。因為太平島比較算是軍事基地，使用的原則上都是軍事使用，我想確認一下，島上目前用的通訊到底是愛爾康這個民間公司，還是中華電信所提供的網路服務？"],["黃部長彥男：中華電信，目前是中華電信。"],["廖委員先翔：中華電信？"],["黃部長彥男：是。"],["廖委員先翔：可是中華電信並未取得SES的衛星合作夥伴。"],["鄭司長明宗：報告委員，剛剛提的衛星有兩種，一個是用驗證的方式，中華電信在太平島上面跟SES的合作是驗證的方式，是透過PoC的方式在處理，那原先它有ST-2是用商轉的方式，是高軌衛星。目前太平島因為是軍事區，就像委員說的，它是管制區，所以它的管制上比較嚴格。"],["廖委員先翔：比較嚴格，所以它上面的通訊網路不需要透過申請另外的頻譜嗎？"],["鄭司長明宗：它也可以跟中華電信申請用商轉的頻譜，現在為了加強它的韌性，我們用驗證的方式，先用中軌衛星來增加它的頻寬……"],["廖委員先翔：主要是用另外一個辦法來提升它的網路韌性？"],["鄭司長明宗：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：好。現在慢慢地臺灣的衛星網路要去跟國際接軌，對不對？那我想確認，部長，原則上衛星網路將來如果普及之後，不管是我們臺灣本島或者是外島，將來應該都可以以100%的涵蓋率來改善我們全臺灣的通訊網路設備，這應該是沒有問題嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：這個沒問題，衛星在天上，應該沒有什麼特別的死角，除非你在山谷裡面。"],["廖委員先翔：是，所以涵蓋率可達100%，請問數發部，如果以100%為目標的話，我們有沒有設定一個目標年，希望我們全臺灣利用衛星網路可以在民國幾年之前達到100%的數位網路服務？"],["黃部長彥男：今年底，現在的目標是今年底。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以就是今年2024年底？"],["黃部長彥男：今年應該會cover到所有的衛星。"],["廖委員先翔：好，2024年底我們全臺灣可以透過衛星網路，除了剛剛部長講的可能地形的關係之外，原則上可達到全臺灣涵蓋率100%的網路通訊服務？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：這部分一些基礎設施設備的建置，因為衛星網路還是需要有一些資訊接收的設備，原則上這些東西我們也會同步都把它建置好嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，都會引進。"],["廖委員先翔：好，就是今年為目標？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：然後全臺灣100%的涵蓋率能夠完成？"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯，對。"],["廖委員先翔：好。謝謝部長。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：廖先翔委員發言完畢。","現在請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.61221875,"end":10.274093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.74659375,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.463468750000004,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.51409375,"end":40.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.93596875,"end":47.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.664718750000006,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.06784375,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.70284375,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.33159375000001,"end":105.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.46596875,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.72159375000001,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.30096875,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.55784375000002,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.91159375,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.92846875,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.53159375,"end":163.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.29659375,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.65096875,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":178.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":201.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.90971875000002,"end":183.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.04159375,"end":209.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.07409375,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.52909375000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.21221875,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.15034375000002,"end":237.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.79534375000003,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.81471875000003,"end":251.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.24909375000001,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.02534375000002,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.43034375000002,"end":253.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.88096875,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.03284375000004,"end":258.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.75846875,"end":259.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.34909375,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.39096875,"end":284.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.37221875,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.65909375,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.76284375,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.03596875,"end":305.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.41409375,"end":305.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.43471875,"end":316.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.82534375,"end":319.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.86284375,"end":326.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.73096875000005,"end":326.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.76471875000004,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.74284375,"end":337.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.85159375,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.15034375000005,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.71534375000005,"end":345.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.70659375,"end":347.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.55034375,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.08159375,"end":351.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.14909375,"end":354.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.12784375,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.60846875000004,"end":367.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.39971875000003,"end":367.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.66971875,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.99159375000005,"end":387.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.35409375,"end":389.77596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.616,"end":8.989,"text":"好那就麻煩主席邀請我們黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":17.236,"end":39.304,"text":"好部長好部長這個其實以我們選區民意代表來說那選區民意代表大概最關心的應該是選區內的一個網路的一個普及度的一個問題那我們數位發展部有針對就是有定性一些辦法就是針對法定的偏遠地區那有一些補助的要點對不對"},{"start":41.065,"end":47.013,"text":"好那這些補助的要點我不曉得您上任後有沒有同仁跟您報告怎樣叫做法定的偏遠地區"},{"start":50.131,"end":74.43,"text":"委員長,這是平原地區的服務的普及,那個矽脂東山里。第一個我想Fundamental原則是我們希望這個數位落差能夠縮減。所以各個鄉里應該都有很好的數位建設,包括網路的建設。所以這是我們推動的一個主要的一個方向。再來未來我上的也是一個操作方向去努力。"},{"start":74.75,"end":100.375,"text":"所以原則上我們現在的辦法大概是用行政區的平均人口來當作一個畫色的要點嘛對不對但是其實如果說有接觸過地方民政、理政的這個政府體系應該很清楚其實同一個行政區它的人口密度也會有相當大的落差可能就像一個新北市有一個新北市有一個板橋區可能新北市也有平溪區那在每一個行政區下面它可能"},{"start":101.38,"end":127.571,"text":"每個區可能像有的林口它一個里就兩萬多人了那有些像比較在平溪啊或者是比較偏向的地方它一個里可能就幾百人而已一百多個人所以說如果說單純以行政區來做一個補助的一個當作一個單位的話那可能會發現一個行政區它有的地方它的人口很密集它有些地方的人口它是非常稀少那它的通訊網路是非常的脆弱的"},{"start":128.231,"end":139.584,"text":"那我不曉得這個補助要點或者是這個補助的對象的這個基準有沒有放寬的一個可能性不是放寬應該是說因地制宜的調整這樣子這個我請我們這市長來做個更進一步的說明謝謝委員"},{"start":144.588,"end":165.746,"text":"我想就以委員的以細節我們來為例我們舉例那剛剛委員其實說得很好我們針對普及服務這個機制已經從鄉鎮因為剛剛我們說的很多區他雖然人口低於51%或高於50%平均的五分之一但是他其實很多村里"},{"start":166.246,"end":168.068,"text":"所以之後會再調整嗎?是是"},{"start":184.401,"end":208.793,"text":"那接下來請問一下另外一個問題就是我前一陣子也有去太平島啦那當然我們的這個這一次的業務概況報告裡面有提到我們太平島的通訊嘛那我們在113年4月的時候有提供太平島SES的中軌衛星訊號嘛強化島上的通訊衛星但我們同樣的在我們報告裡面有看到說"},{"start":210.137,"end":235.675,"text":"第12頁的部分有提到說我們目前有關於軌道衛星的申請SES目前是只有阿爾康資料處理股份有限公司有在有申請嘛 申請許可那我們中華電信股份有限公司是以OneWeb的這個衛星來當作一個衛星的一個合作對象嘛那我想確認一下因為太平島他算是比較軍事這個"},{"start":239.014,"end":240.436,"text":"中華電信目前有取得SES的合作會信嗎?夥伴啊?"},{"start":261.428,"end":284.279,"text":"報告委員因為現在的剛剛提的衛星有兩種一個是用驗證的方式所以中華電信在太平島上面現在SES是驗證是透過POC的方式在處理那原先它有ST2是用商轉的方式是高軌衛星目前太平島因為是軍事區就像委員說的它是管制區所以它的這個管制上比較嚴格"},{"start":285.439,"end":305.062,"text":"所以他上面的通訊網路不需要透過這個另外的一個申請的一個評估的一個申請嗎他也可以跟中華電信申請用商轉的評估那我們現在用為了補強加強他的韌性我們用驗證的方式來先用中軌衛星來證明他用另外一個辦法來提升他的網路韌性是的"},{"start":305.623,"end":331.443,"text":"好那因為現在這個衛星網路算是慢慢的臺灣要去跟國際接軌嘛對不對那我想確認部長原則上衛星網路將來如果說普及之後就以不管是我們臺灣本島或是外島將來應該都是可以以100%的涵蓋率來改善我們全臺灣的通訊網路設備這應該是沒有問題嗎應該沒問題啊衛星在天上那個應該沒有什麼特別的視角除非你在山谷裡面"},{"start":331.863,"end":346.693,"text":"是,所以100%那我們這樣子數位我們數發部啦如果說以100%為目標的話我們有沒有設定一個目標年希望能夠我們全台灣利用衛星網路在民國幾年之前可以達到100%的數位網路的服務"},{"start":348.581,"end":364.93,"text":"今年底他現在的目標是今年底所以就是今年2024年底2024年底我們全台灣可以透過衛星網路達到全台灣除了剛剛部長講的可能地形的關係原則上是涵蓋全台灣100%的網路通訊設備的服務"},{"start":367.972,"end":388.525,"text":"好那這部分的一些基礎設置設備建制啦因為微信網路還是有一些需要有一些資訊接收的一些設備嘛那原來上這些東西是我們也是會同步都會把它建制好嗎對都會引進好就是今年為目標然後全台灣100%的涵蓋率來完成這樣子好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3fe2f10d6dcfd4e4efcddaa0058768d2ee1548db29109d24e11a9d0916dc8a51f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:29:11 - 09:39:13","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":602,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:39:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:29:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":203,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時29分）謝謝主席，我們請徐次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長早。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：今天我們要審查的是刑法第八十三條條文修正草案和增訂第八十條之一條文草案。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：內容是有關兒少遭受性侵和猥褻，成年後可能超過追訴期限的問題，兒少在身心尚未發展成熟之前是國家最應該積極保護的對象，您認同嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：認同。"],["陳委員俊宇：憲法第十六條也明定人民有請願、訴願及訴訟的權利，但是在幼年時期遭受到性侵的孩子，可能當下並不曉得自己遭受到侵害，而是在成長的過程當中，對於事情的認知有進一步的瞭解之後，逐漸形成法律所賦予自身權利的概念，在成年後才有機會去追究加害人，但是卻可能因為追訴權的時效問題，沒有辦法為自己伸張正義。我想請教次長，目前刑法第八十條針對這個追訴權的概念基礎是什麼？它主要是來自於刑度嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是的。刑法第八十條所列的這些都是以刑度來決定追訴權的時效，當然追訴不法這是我們的義務，但是有時候會考慮到法的安定性的問題、法秩序的安定性的問題，就是在督促執法機關要善盡追訴的義務，這是課予執法機關的一個義務，所以在執法機關怠於行使一段期間之後，為了法的安定性，所以我們會賦予追訴權時效的問題，這是在督促我們執法機關追訴的義務，設計上是這個概念。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。如同剛剛次長您所說的，以及我們法務部提供的書面報告上面有寫到，主要也是為了法的安定性，還有社會秩序的問題，以及在舉證上的困難重重等等，但我認為這些考量也應該要建立在正義和人民對司法的信任之上。今天一個成年人對一個毫無抵抗能力的幼童性侵、猥褻，卻只要等二十年之後就可以不用負任何法律責任，受害人卻要承受這份傷痛一輩子，看著加害人逍遙法外，我自己都不太能夠接受，相信社會大眾也應該很難接受。我想請問，是不是追訴期所設定的時效反而成了加害者脫罪的一個救命符？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，針對追訴權的時效，從另外一個角度來看，執法機關喪失的追訴權，其實對被告來講，它就是在訴訟上得到一個利益。如果用這個角度來看，幾乎所有案子好像都不應該有追訴權時效的問題，如果一個被告真的做了壞事情，本來就應該被懲罰；如果是這樣來講，他的確獲利。可是如果站在法秩序以及監督執法機關的勤惰，它的追訴義務是一個不得已的選擇制度；就是我們必須要保護法的秩序，這是兩個在消長、在拔河的概念。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們從2023年衛福部的統計資料來看，未成年受害者占了整體的55%，我想法律應該是要保護弱勢的一方，受到性侵的兒少應該有更極端的弱勢，從過去的調查結果來看，受害人平均要二十四年才能夠首次說出受害的經歷，在在顯示現行二十年的追訴期時效恐怕很難為受害者伸張正義。但是從法務部的報告來看，似乎認為二十到三十年的時間已經很夠了，我想是不是要請法務部多多和衛福部溝通看看，詳加考慮性犯罪的特殊性，也多站在受害者的立場，讓這個法律能夠更貼近現實的狀況？次長，您認為呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我在這裡跟委員報告，保護兒少的權益絕對是法務部一直以來沒有改變過的政策，我個人也擔任過2年婦幼專組的檢察官，對於這個狀況，其實我是很清楚的。這是一個在制度上的設計，我們到底是要放棄所有追訴權政策，進而完全保護未成年人呢？這個也是一種選擇。還是說我們尊重追訴權制度的設計？我想這是一個選擇。我們尊重委員所提出來的這些修正意見，我們真的是非常的尊重，我們目前只是針對制度面的考量要不要這樣設計提供建議，法務部並沒有站在反對的立場，我們只是建議。在制度上有些事不明確，特別的犯罪到底指的是什麼，目前是看不出來的，以後在執行上會有困難。我們只是站在這個立場做法制面的建議，我們絕對沒有站在反對的立場，我先在這裡做一個報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。兒少性犯罪的問題不分國家，也應該能參酌其他國家的作法。去年蔡清祥前部長就曾經到立法院進行專案報告，當時就有委員提出，部分歐美國家對於性犯罪完全沒有追訴時效，蔡部長也回應，兒少的部分可以討論，會蒐集各國狀況進行綜合研究，我想請問法務部這邊是否已經有研擬過各國實施的情況，還有相關的辦法？"],["徐次長錫祥：剛才副司長也特別報告，去年我們有研修小組針對這個部分已經做過討論，討論的結果認為以目前的制度應該不影響未成年人在成年之後的追訴，其實有一個很大的因素，這個案子不好辦就是時間的問題，事情發生在二十年前，但有一個很重要的原因，那就是證據取得非常困難。"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["徐次長錫祥：所以我們也鼓勵，希望在成年的時候趕快提出相關訴訟，不然時間拖得越長，尤其這種是隱密性的犯罪，證據完全都滅失了，案子是真的真的非常難辦。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們也看到他國的相關辦法，智利總統曾經在2019年簽署了廢除兒童性犯罪追訴期的法律，加拿大也沒有針對性犯罪的法律追訴做期限上的訂定，假設我國也取消兒少性犯罪追訴時效的目標，法務部這邊認為可能會遇到什麼樣的困難？或是有什麼其他的問題嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們所考量的就是一個法律安定性的問題，在執行上，目前就成年這個部分的話，應該是沒有……"],["陳委員俊宇：請副司長回答好了。"],["簡副司長美慧：報告委員，有關於取消追訴權時效會不會造成問題的部分，誠如剛才我們書面報告所講的，基本上我們就是要考慮一下各罪之間法益的平衡，因為目前我們大概就只有國家情報工作法第三十條之一是特別排除時效的規定，還有第八十條第一項第一款有造成死亡結果的部分，要不要再納入其他的犯罪，或者說有沒有其他犯罪其實跟兒少犯罪的性質可能也是相當，這個部分就是必須要做一個通盤性的檢討，不然會怕也許有一些輕重失衡的疑慮，因為畢竟那個沒有追訴權時效是一個例外的情形。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。其實對於兒少性侵的相關問題，我真的希望法務部應該要用更多心思去關心，因為小孩子在未成年的當下，他可能對於這個事情都一知半解，只是到成年之後，他才會去瞭解。所以我希望我們國家要保護我們的兒童、保護我們的幼兒，應該是從法律面去制定比較符合大家所期待的制度，未來可以遵循以外，也能夠讓加害者有警惕之心。因為我們訂的法如果不夠重，反而會變成無關緊要的話，我覺得對於要保護兒少可能沒有實質的幫助。是不是再請法務部應該跟衛福部多加溝通一下？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.3303437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.67784375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.83346875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.68096875,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.65971875,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.95409375,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.02159375,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.158468750000004,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.580343750000004,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.95159375,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.98971875000001,"end":89.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.41784375,"end":93.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.08784375,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.25659375000001,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.57284375,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.11096875,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.03909375,"end":161.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.71034375000002,"end":192.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.32159375,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.03034375000001,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.33159375000002,"end":240.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.46159375000002,"end":241.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.64284375000003,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.30284375,"end":296.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.03096875,"end":298.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.65096875,"end":301.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.84034375000005,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.51034375,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":411.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.18159375000005,"end":439.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.28721875,"end":450.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.96471875000003,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.32659375000003,"end":457.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.37721875000005,"end":457.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.90034375000005,"end":457.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.98471875,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.81971875000005,"end":463.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.24534375,"end":492.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.42221875,"end":493.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.43909375000004,"end":494.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.73846875000004,"end":494.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.77221875000004,"end":497.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.14721875000004,"end":499.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.98659375000005,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.67784375,"end":505.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.03221875,"end":507.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.20096875,"end":506.63534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.92596875000004,"end":526.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.8515937500001,"end":532.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.9265937499999,"end":540.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.28409375,"end":543.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.5747187500001,"end":543.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.62096875,"end":546.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.61221875,"end":556.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.0915937500001,"end":588.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.23846875,"end":594.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0603437500001,"end":597.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.5747187500001,"end":601.57409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.569,"end":22.529,"text":"委員發言好謝謝主席我們請徐次長麻煩次長次長早"},{"start":25.731,"end":25.991,"text":"委員長您認同嗎?認同"},{"start":49.051,"end":74.386,"text":"那在憲法第十六條也明定人民有請願、訴願及訴訟的權利但是在幼年的時期遭受到信心的孩子可能當下並不曉得自己遭受到侵害而是在成長的過程當中對於事情的認知有進一步的了解之後逐漸形成法律所賦予自身權利的概念在成年後才有機會去追究加害人"},{"start":75.126,"end":97.756,"text":"但是卻可能因為追溯權的時效問題沒有辦法為自己伸張爭議。那我想請教次長目前刑法第八十條針對這個追溯權的概念基礎是什麼?那它主要的來自於刑他主要是來自於刑度嗎?是的我們八十條"},{"start":98.615,"end":127.97,"text":"那個刑法八十條所列的這些都是以刑度來決定說追訴權的實效。那這個概念大概就是當然我們追訴不法這是我們的義務但是有時候會考慮到法的安定性的問題法秩序的安定性的問題那就是在督促執法機關要善盡了追訴的義務這是科與執法機關的一個義務所以在執法機關待於行使一段期間之後"},{"start":128.37,"end":128.45,"text":"議員魯明哲"},{"start":147.759,"end":147.799,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":163.783,"end":192.097,"text":"這個今天一個成年人對一個毫無抵抗能力的幼童性侵猥褻卻只要等20年之後就可以不用負任何的法律責任受害人卻要承受這份傷痛一輩子那看著加害人逍遙法外我自己都不太能夠接受那相信社會大眾也應該很難接受那我想請問是不是追溯期所設定的時效反而成了加害者脫罪的一個救命符"},{"start":193.106,"end":217.151,"text":"追溯報言追溯權的時效你從另外一個角度來看執法機關上市的這個追溯權其實對被告來講他就是在訴訟上得到一個利益那如果用這個角度來看幾乎所有的案子好像都不應該有追溯權時效的問題如果是真的一個被告他做錯壞事情本來就應該被懲罰"},{"start":218.711,"end":219.272,"text":"則不復議同意書．則不復議同意書"},{"start":242.711,"end":259.663,"text":"我們從這個2023年的這個衛福部的統計資料來看未成年受害者佔了整體的55%那我想法律應該是要保護弱勢的一方受到這個性侵的兒少應該有更極端的這個弱勢從過去的這個調查結果來看"},{"start":262.165,"end":262.545,"text":"委員．陳俊宇"},{"start":285.353,"end":296.013,"text":"多多的和這個衛福部來溝通看看想加考慮性犯罪的特殊性也多站在受害者的立場讓這個法律能夠更貼近現實的狀況市長您認為"},{"start":299.057,"end":300.079,"text":"我對於這個狀況其實我是很清楚的。"},{"start":315.438,"end":335.209,"text":"那這個是一個在制度上設計是我們到底是要好放棄所有的這個這個我們追溯權的政策我們來就是完全保護這個這個未成年人呢我這個也是一種選擇那還是說我們尊重這一個追溯權這個制度的一個的設計啊我想這個是一個選擇"},{"start":338.51,"end":363.237,"text":"我們尊重委員所提出來的這些修正的意見我們真的是非常的尊重我們只是現在目前是針對制度面的考量要不要這樣設計提供建議法務部並沒有站在反對的立場我們只是建議說在制度有些事不明確這個有時候會將來好像特別就有些特別的犯罪到底指的是什麼"},{"start":363.677,"end":363.777,"text":"則不予審查"},{"start":386.164,"end":408.217,"text":"蔡清祥前部長就曾經到立法院來進行專案報告當時就有委員提出部分的這個歐美國家對於性犯罪完全沒有追溯實效蔡部長也回應而稍後的部分可以討論會收集各國這個狀況來進行綜合的研究那我想請問我們法務部這邊是否已經有研擬各國的這個實施的情況還有相關的辦法"},{"start":413.503,"end":433.781,"text":"我們剛才副市長有特別報告去年我們有研修小組針對這個部分已經做過討論那討論的結果認為以目前的制度應該不影響那個是未成年人他在成年之後他的追溯其實有一個很大的因素這個案子不好辦就是"},{"start":434.462,"end":435.983,"text":"我們也看到這個他國的相關的這個"},{"start":464.935,"end":491.592,"text":"那在智利的總統智利總統曾經在2019年簽署了廢除兒童這個性犯罪追溯期的法律那加拿大的也並沒有針對這個性犯罪的法律追溯期來做一個期限的這個訂定那假設我國也取消兒少性犯罪的追溯時效的目標然後法務部我們這邊認為可能會遇到什麼樣的困難或是或是有什麼其他的問題嗎"},{"start":494.824,"end":496.046,"text":"副市長回答就好了。副市長"},{"start":510.426,"end":532.401,"text":"報告委員就是說有關於那個取消追訴權時效會不會造成問題的這個部分那就誠如剛才我們書面報告所講的基本上我們就是要考慮一下各罪之間法醫的平衡因為目前我們現在大概就只有國家情報工作法的三十條之一是特別排除時效的規定還有八十條第一項第一款有造成死亡結果的部分那要不要再納入其他的犯罪或者說有沒有其他犯罪其實跟兒少"},{"start":533.241,"end":561.754,"text":"罪的性質可能也是相當。這個部分就是必須要做一個通盤性的檢討。不然怕也許會有一些輕重失衡的疑慮。因為畢竟那個沒有追出權時效是一個例外的情形。市長那其實對於這個兒少性侵相關問題我真的希望我們法務部應該是要這個用更多的這個心思去關心。讓我們這個因為小孩子他在這個未成年的當下他可能對於這個事情都一知半解。"},{"start":562.214,"end":587.128,"text":"只是到成年之後他才會去了解所以我希望說我們國家要保護我們的這個兒童保護我們的這個幼兒應該是從這個法律面應該去制定比較符合大家所期待的一個這個制度讓未來可以遵循以外也能夠讓這個加害者能夠這個有警惕之心不要說因為我們訂的法如果不夠重的話反而這個變成他們這個"},{"start":589.589,"end":601.037,"text":"無關緊要的話我覺得對於這個要保護兒少可能沒有實質的幫助啦是不是再請我們法務部應該包括跟衛福部多加溝通一下是好以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b391cb2c3c1ef1f4fffcddaa0058768d2ee1548db29109d24e198a39e653668eca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:18:58 - 09:29:07","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:29:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:18:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時19分）主席，有請法務部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝主席，委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：徐次長早安。非常感謝我們主席今天安排有關刑法第八十條或者是八十三條的修正，大致上就是有關刑法追訴權，對兒少性侵害案件追訴權的這些檢討。這裡我們看到幾個目前委員的提案，一個是希望能夠完全排除時效的規定，另外一個是希望時效的起算從成年起開始嘛！對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：今天之所以主席會排審這個案子，我們社會也對這個案子高度的關注，我想大概有幾個原因，第一個，確實有許多對於兒少的性侵害犯罪，就是因為追訴期間已過，所以造成對兒少性侵害難以確實的定罪，這個狀況很多原因來自於因為對受害者而言，他可能在未成年之前，完全對於這樣子性侵害相關的法令或者是他的感受可能並不清楚，那成年之後……也不是說成年之後清楚，他就一定會提起告訴或者告發，因為成年之後他會有諸多的社會性的考量，讓很多人在經過相當長時間的考慮之後，他才會決定是不是進行告發。所以如果時效從受性侵害開始起算，可能會變得事實上時間過短，等到他決定要告發的時候，可能這個時效已過了，這是今天會有這些提案的主要原因。","另外，因為之前一段時間發生了這些#MeToo以及相關對於兒少的這些性犯罪，激起了社會公憤，當然對國民來講、對國民的法感情來講，讓這些犯罪者因為時間的關係而逍遙法外，目前可能造成國人、國民的法感情沒有辦法接受。但是我剛剛聽了法務部的報告，大致上對於這樣的修法，基本上是覺得應該要再審慎、通盤的考量，這部分我同意，但就是因為有這樣的提案，就是希望我們法務部就針對這些相關的時效規定能夠進行通盤的考量。","我想先就教次長，目前我國刑法有沒有其他的犯罪樣態完全排除時效之規定？就是目前現行法完全排除時效的規定，不是暫時停止原因，就是因為犯罪構成要件型態而完全排除時效的適用。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，目前的規定就是在第八十條第一項第一款裡面……"],["沈委員發惠：那個是停止……"],["徐次長錫祥：對，如果有發生，就是犯最重本刑為死刑、無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑是三十年，但是如果發生死亡結果就不在此限。"],["沈委員發惠：這個都是跟後面的停止要件是一樣的啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：還有國家情報……"],["沈委員發惠：我現在是說有沒有針對犯罪的態樣，對於這個構成要件而排除這個追訴時效的？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是只有這一款。"],["沈委員發惠：就是當事人死亡……不是死亡，死亡是……"],["徐次長錫祥：還有國家情報工作法裡面也有規定。"],["沈委員發惠：國家情報工作法有一條是規定完全排除時效嗎？你要不要說明一下？"],["徐次長錫祥：請我們副司長。"],["沈委員發惠：好。"],["簡副司長美慧：跟委員報告，國家情報工作法第三十條之一，針對間諜如果有洩密這個情形的話，依國家情報工作法的規定，它特別排除了刑法第八十條追訴權時效的適用，所以目前就我們所知，有排除適用的就是這一條加上刑法，剛才次長有提到的第八十條第一項第一款發生死亡結果……"],["沈委員發惠：這個死亡情況，這個不一樣，我現在要講的是犯罪型態，就是你剛剛講的……"],["簡副司長美慧：國家情報工作法。"],["沈委員發惠：國家情報工作法，好像就只有這一條。所以我個人是這樣子，剛剛我講到國民的法感情，對於這個犯罪者逍遙法外，基本上是沒有辦法接受，尤其是每當發生人神共憤、大家認為應該嚴加懲治的案件的時候，大家就認為這個時效的規定，因為時間而讓犯罪者逍遙法外認為不妥。但是次長，全世界這些成文法的相關規定都有追訴時效的規定，有這個追訴權時效的規定一定有它的道理，為什麼會規定一個時間來讓這個犯罪者逍遙法外呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這是一個法的安定性的考量，就是在限制執法機關要善盡追訴的義務，在一定時間之後，如果沒有善盡這個義務，應該這個追訴權的時效就要完成。"],["沈委員發惠：當然對國民法感情來講，逍遙法外這件事是大家無法接受的，但是時效規定有時效規定它本身在法秩序的安定，它有它的必要啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我個人認為這個部分應該要檢討，如果法務部覺得應該通盤檢討，那就趕快通盤檢討，不要每一次有委員提案說這個部分的時效應該要檢討的時候，你們就說不宜針對這個個案來檢討，我們應該通盤檢討，一句話推完之後就從來沒有再通盤檢討。次長能不能說明一下，目前針對相關的這些時效規定，我們有沒有在進行檢討？"],["徐次長錫祥：去年我們刑修的時候有討論過。"],["沈委員發惠：有討論過？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：去年討論有沒有結論？次長，這個直接……"],["徐次長錫祥：簡副司長。"],["沈委員發惠：簡副司長你直接回答好了，省掉你在咬耳朵的時間。"],["簡副司長美慧：是，報告委員，我們在刑法研究修正小組有針對關於性侵害犯罪是不是要有排除時效，或者是要另訂停止時效的規定，之前有經過討論，多數的委員會認為我國刑法關於性侵害犯罪的法定刑，已經比德國、奧地利、瑞士等其他國家要來得重，時效也比較長，所以討論的結論，大家最後是傾向認為暫時可能沒有修正第八十條或是第八十三條的必要，那是那一次刑修小組討論的結果。"],["沈委員發惠：這是兩個層面啦！第一個層面是你們所說的通盤檢討，因為我們要衡量各種不一樣的刑事犯罪態樣、各種不一樣的構成要件之間法律的衡平性嘛！不能說這個對社會侵害法益比較高的，結果它在相關的時效計算，或者它的刑度之間失去平衡，對不對？所以要通盤檢討。我剛剛講的第一個是通盤檢討，第二個是個案，就是針對兒少性侵害案件，這個才是剛剛我們副司長所講的，就是特別針對性侵害案件的追訴權、追訴時效做的檢討嘛！我現在是要求這兩個都必須做通盤檢討。","在剛剛法務部的書面說明裡面，我個人認為這個沒有辦法對社會交代啦！雖然你們認為應該通盤檢討，但你們沒有拿出你們真正的有通盤檢討，我剛剛聽到的就只有針對這個個案，而且檢討的結果是認為這個刑度已經夠了，或者是相關的時效已經比世界各國要長了，事實上也並不盡然。剛剛提案委員也有提到，有一些國家真的就把這種型態犯罪的追訴權時效整個就拿掉，確實是有，不是沒有，因此希望我們法務部還是要針對這個來進行整個通盤檢討，不能每一次委員提案之後，就是說這個有可能會喪失衡平性，這個我都知道，問題是你們就真的要進行通盤檢討，不是說說而已啦！好不好？次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.22034375,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.28784375,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.44284375,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.938468750000006,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.84971875,"end":52.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.09846875,"end":54.469718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.570968750000006,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.392843750000004,"end":64.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.88159375000001,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.29909375,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.29471875,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.95221875,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.52159375000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.28409375000001,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.41909375,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.76034375,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.59471875000001,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.63659375,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.12096875,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.22596875,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.16596875,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.58659375,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.10346875000002,"end":131.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.41971875000002,"end":137.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.59596875,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.64659375000002,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.54846875,"end":168.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.86534375000002,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.77971875,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.20909375000002,"end":183.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.22159375,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.27596875,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.37284375000002,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.18096875,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.53096875000003,"end":230.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.34096875,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.64784375000002,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.80284375000002,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.47284375,"end":251.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.10534375,"end":256.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.91909375,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.74159375,"end":259.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.39534375,"end":260.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.15471875000003,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.06159375000004,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.77846875,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.35971875,"end":273.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.22721875,"end":289.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.54284375000003,"end":290.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.82534375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.51659375,"end":298.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.14034375,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.35096875,"end":301.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.77284375,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.97534375000004,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.02596875,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.04284375000003,"end":302.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.05971875,"end":304.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.24096875000004,"end":306.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.51909375,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.02471875000003,"end":316.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.70721875000004,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.22596875,"end":318.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.30971875,"end":343.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.89971875000003,"end":327.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.61159375,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.14721875000004,"end":337.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.41221875,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.25909375000003,"end":350.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.20409375,"end":352.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.29221875,"end":357.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.16909375,"end":379.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.02221875000004,"end":381.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.97971875,"end":382.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.25784375,"end":388.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.57346875,"end":399.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.31034375,"end":399.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.32721875000004,"end":399.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.34409375,"end":399.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.74909375000004,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.03596875000005,"end":407.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.47784375000003,"end":414.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.29534375000003,"end":414.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.93659375000004,"end":414.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.95346875,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.42159375,"end":422.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.93534375,"end":430.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.86284375,"end":428.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.88346875,"end":432.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.85346875000005,"end":435.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.87846875,"end":439.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.19846875,"end":460.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.21221875000003,"end":462.40596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.49034375,"end":466.20284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.55284375,"end":469.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.61159375000005,"end":471.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.23159375000006,"end":475.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.90221875000003,"end":472.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.95284375000006,"end":473.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.04534375000003,"end":485.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.89596875,"end":490.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.18221875,"end":503.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.11284375,"end":507.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.98596875000004,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.96846875000006,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.14471875,"end":515.4778437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.5959687500001,"end":518.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.3803437500001,"end":521.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.43034375,"end":543.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.74034375,"end":536.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.9428437500001,"end":537.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.7434687500001,"end":549.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.6328437500001,"end":552.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.2778437500001,"end":565.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.3897187499999,"end":571.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.5872187500001,"end":573.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.44346875,"end":606.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.10909375,"end":607.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.18471875,"end":610.2478437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.262,"end":26.742,"text":"沈發惠委員發言主席有請法務部次長請次長不好意思次長謝謝主席委員長"},{"start":30.65,"end":50.975,"text":"委員長早安今天非常感謝我們主席今天安排有關刑法第八十條或者是八十三條的修正大致上就是有關刑法追溯權檢討對兒少的性侵害案件的追溯權的這些檢討"},{"start":60.458,"end":86.602,"text":"那這裡這裡我們看到的幾個目前的委員的提案齁大概一個是一個是要完希望就是希望能夠完全排除時效的規定齁那另外一個是這個希望這個時效的起算從這個成年期開始嘛對不對那這個我想齁今天之所以這個案子齁這個我們今天主席會排審那"},{"start":87.574,"end":106.646,"text":"我們這個社會也對這個案子高度的關注那我想這個大概有幾個原因第一個就是說說這個確實有許多對於這個這個兒少的這個性侵害犯罪他就是因為這個追訴期間"},{"start":108.291,"end":137.778,"text":"的這個的的已過了吼那所以他造成這個對兒少性侵害難以確實的定罪了吼是那這個這個狀況很多原因來自於這個這個因為受害對受害者而言在他可能在在這個未成年之前吼他完全對對於這樣子的這個相關性侵害的這些相關的的法法令或者是他的感受吼"},{"start":138.941,"end":162.995,"text":"這個可能並不清楚那成年之後也不是說成年之後清楚他就一定會提起提起告訴然後或者告發這是因為這個有很多有諸多成年之後他會有諸多的這個社會性的考量讓很多人在經過相當長時間的考慮之後他才會決定是不是定義告發所以如果時效從"},{"start":163.916,"end":164.397,"text":"則不予審查閱讀委員"},{"start":184.318,"end":212.473,"text":"另外呢我想這個因為進行這個之前一段時間發生的這些咪吐以及相關的這些對於兒少的這些性犯罪激起了社會的公憤那當然這個對國民來講這個國民的法感情來講這個逍遙法外讓這些犯罪因為時間的關係而逍遙法外目前可能造成這個國民的法感情沒有辦法接受"},{"start":214.332,"end":236.337,"text":"那所以我在這裡就是要那但是我剛剛聽了我們這個法務部的報告大致上對於這樣子的修法基本上是覺得應該要在審慎在通盤的考量這部分我同意但是就是因為有這樣子的提案就是希望我們法務部就針對這些相關的時效規定能夠進行通盤的考量"},{"start":237.711,"end":265.175,"text":"那我想先救救這個市長目前目前我們我國的這個刑法有沒有其他的其他的這個犯罪樣態他完全排除時效之規定目前現行法完全排除時效的規定不是那個暫時停止原因就是說他的因為因為犯罪構成要件形態而這個這個排除完全排除時效之的的適用"},{"start":265.816,"end":293.802,"text":"目前的規定目前的規定就是在八十條的第一項第一款裡面那個是停止對就如果有發生就是犯罪重視為本行死刑無期徒刑十年以上有期徒刑是三十年但是如果發生死亡結果的話對發生死亡結果我是說他就不再此現就這個都是跟這個後面的這個停止要件是一樣的還有國家情報的我現在是說有沒有針對犯罪的太陽"},{"start":295.182,"end":319.947,"text":"對於這個構成要點而排除這個追溯時效的。就是只有這一個,這一款。當事人死亡。不是死亡,死亡是...國家情報工作法裡面也有規定。國家情報工作法有一條有規定完全排除時效嗎?來來來,要不要說明一下?我們請副市長。副市長。"},{"start":322.349,"end":347.008,"text":"不好意思跟委員報告就是說國家情報工作法裡面三十條之一針對間諜若有洩密的這個情形的話那在國家情報工作法的規定就是他特別排除了刑法八十條追訴權失效的適用所以目前就我們所知有排除適用的這一條加上刑法剛才次長有提到的八十條第一項第一款發生死亡結果這個死亡情況這不一樣了他是他是他我現在要講的是說犯罪形態但是你剛剛講的這個"},{"start":348.749,"end":357.114,"text":"國家情報工作法國家情報工作法好像只有這一條啦齁所以我個人是這樣子的齁"},{"start":358.446,"end":379.567,"text":"剛剛我講到說國民的法感情對於對於這個犯罪的逍遙法外齁基本上沒有辦法接受尤其是每當發生大家認為人神共憤齁認為說應該言語懲治的案件的時候大家就認為說這個時效的規定齁因為時間而讓犯罪逍遙法外認為不妥但是這個這個市長這個"},{"start":384.335,"end":388.712,"text":"全世界的這些成文法的規定相關規定他都有這個追溯實效的規定"},{"start":389.822,"end":414.055,"text":"有這個追溯權時效規定他一定有他的道理為什麼會規定一個時間來讓犯罪犯罪者消耗法外呢報告委員這是一個法的安定性的考量就是在限制執法機關要擅進追溯的義務在一定時間之後如果沒有擅進這個義務應該追溯權的時效就要完成"},{"start":415.6,"end":437.214,"text":"所以假設啦就是說當然對國民法感情來講逍遙法外這件事大家是無法接受的但是它實效規定有實效規定它本身在法秩序的安定它有它的必要啦所以這個部分我個人認為說這個部分應該要檢討如果法務部覺得說應該通盤檢討那就趕快通盤檢討"},{"start":440.373,"end":465.588,"text":"每一次有委員提案提案說這個部分的這個時效應該要檢討的時候你們就說啊這個不要不宜針對這個個案來檢討我們應該通盤檢討一句話退完之後就從來再沒有沒有再通盤檢討你們說市長能不能說明一下目前我們針對相關的這些時效的這些規定我們有沒有在進行進行檢討去年我們行修的時候有討論過有討論過是有沒有有沒有有沒有去年討論有沒有結論"},{"start":467.591,"end":475.754,"text":"副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長�"},{"start":495.481,"end":502.552,"text":"所以討論的結論大家最後是傾向認為說暫時可能沒有修正八十條或是八十三條的必要。那是那一次行修和操作討論結論。這是兩個層面。我講第一個層面是你們所說的通盤檢討。"},{"start":508.055,"end":524.855,"text":"因為我們要衡量各種不一樣的這個刑事犯罪態樣各種不一樣的這個過程之間他法律的橫平性嘛不能說這個對社會侵害法案比較高的結果他他他在這個相關的時效計算或他的行動之間失去平衡嘛對不對這個所以要通盤檢討所以我剛講的第一個是通盤檢討"},{"start":528.419,"end":551.785,"text":"第二個是個案就是說針對這個這個這個這個兒少性侵害案件就是這次才是剛剛這個我們副副司長的副司長所講這是針對這個這個這個特別針對性侵害犯件案件的這個追溯前時的追溯時效做的檢討嗎我現在是要求這兩個都必須要做通盤檢討了那我個人是是是認為說"},{"start":553.342,"end":564.547,"text":"我們在在你們剛剛法務部的這個書面說明裡面吼我個人認為說這個這個沒有辦法對社會交代啦吼就是說你們你們認為說應該通盤檢討但你們沒有拿出你們真正的有通盤檢討"},{"start":566.428,"end":584.526,"text":"我剛剛聽到的就只有針對這個個案而且檢討的結果是說認為說這個刑度已經夠了或者是這個相關的時效已經比世界各國要長了事實上也也並不盡然啦齁並不盡然剛剛提案委員也有提到有一些國家他是真的就把就把這個像這種"},{"start":586.207,"end":604.885,"text":"刑罪犯罪的追溯懸殊下整個就拿掉確實是有不是沒有只是說因此我是希望說我們法務部還是要針對這個來進行整個的通盤檢討不能每一次委員提案之後只是說這個有這個會有可能上市橫平性這個我都知道問題是你們就真的要進行通盤檢討不是說說而已好不好市長是好謝謝沈委員"}]}},{"id":"152981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b34a4d556a73e8e4855186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24e3ef1174435adc4975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"09:18:34 - 09:21:15","影片長度":"00:02:41","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":161,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:21:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:18:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.864718750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.445968750000002,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.35721875,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.08409375000001,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.85659375,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.44596875,"end":128.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.65221875,"end":129.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.23846875,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.30534375000002,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.35471875000002,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.15784375,"end":161.18721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.585,"end":31.364,"text":"好大家好本期就提出之就業服務法部分條文修正草案進行提案說明根據國發會的推估很快明年我們國內老年人口就要超過20%台灣正式邁入超高齡社會階段超過80歲以上的老人也很快突破百萬人"},{"start":32.225,"end":59.395,"text":"照顧服務需求恐急為現行就業服務法第46條申請外籍家庭看護需要通過巴士量表而民眾苦等巴士量表久矣有位身患阿茲海默症的八十歲老奶奶申請巴士量表曠日廢時而阿茲海默症當下明明就有不可逆之疾病還要被要求需要三年回到指定醫療"},{"start":60.775,"end":87.015,"text":"場所再次進行鑑定以及重新評估狀況此外申請巴士量表也經常成為醫病衝突的導火線民眾因申請巴士量表不成毆打醫護人員等情勢也層出不窮因此本席提案修法放寬年滿80歲之被看護者聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作得免經醫療機構之專業評估"},{"start":90.277,"end":107.297,"text":"雖然相關部會及民間團體指出五十三點一萬沒有失能的八十歲以上老人免評估申請外籍看護將使移工淪為家庭幫傭此外本席要指出現代家庭社會"},{"start":108.518,"end":127.986,"text":"復單家記者往往無力照顧家中長者此外本席的選區沿海偏鄉社區照顧醫療資源匱乏八十歲以上的老人在家無人照顧在家萬一跌倒受傷患病都是家庭不可承受之重"},{"start":128.746,"end":155.924,"text":"如果我們不在老人跌倒之前為他找到外籍看護難道要等到他跌倒致殘了才符合評估的標準才能找這個外籍看護嗎?請各部會的官員、社會各界有事者互以台北看天下的角度看待本次修法請回到被照顧者的立場來思考請把申請外籍看護的權利還給民眾謝謝"},{"start":160.152,"end":160.173,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b302d99510612f910a5186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24e6e0888262ff463d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:16:06 - 09:18:26","影片長度":"00:02:20","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":140,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:18:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:16:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.45596875,"end":138.79409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.932,"end":31.859,"text":"謝謝主席本期針對勞動基準法第五十條的條文修正草案提案說明台灣的生育率長期偏低近年來出生的人數也持續低於死亡的人數人口總數從108年達到2360萬人之後就開始下降到去年台灣的生育率已經是全球倒數第一可以說近年來都是生不如死的狀態"},{"start":32.939,"end":61.104,"text":"這不僅反映人口結構的挑戰也是對國家未來的發展構成威脅因此本席在這一次的修法提出了為了順應國際的趨勢並真正的保護母嬰的身心的健康我們應該延長我國女性的勞工的產假日數具體來說據我修訂勞動基準法第五十條將女性的產假由現行的八週延長至十二週"},{"start":61.864,"end":89.585,"text":"這不僅有助於女性在生育後有充足的時間恢復身心也能更好的照顧心神而減少產後抑鬱的健康問題此外為了配合性別平等工作平等法第十五條已經規定未滿三個月流產產假的部分故在本法明文規定未滿三個月流產假的工資給付這也體現了對女性在特殊情況下的關懷也能進一步的保障其基本的權益減輕"},{"start":90.726,"end":90.766,"text":"議員：許宇甄"},{"start":106.46,"end":122.283,"text":"指倡歧視。其次,延長產假有助於新生兒的健康狀況促進母嬰親密的關係為新生兒的健康成長奠定良好的基礎最後這樣的政策調整也能夠提升家庭的生活質量"},{"start":122.763,"end":137.99,"text":"促進社會的和解發展總結來說修正勞動基準法第五十條延長女性產假至十二週並明文規定未滿三個月留產假的公知己夫是保障勞動婦女的權益維護母嬰身心健康的必要措施謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b300b5e798da4240d15186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24ea5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:13:09 - 09:15:54","影片長度":"00:02:45","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":165,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:15:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:13:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.96284375,"end":162.73971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.433,"end":17.539,"text":"謝謝主席針對舊法第46條提案發言2018年台灣已經成為高齡社會到今年年4月我國高齡人口達到436萬5984人佔18.65%預計明年就會超過20%邁向超高齡的社會其中80歲以上會有91萬2976人這是預計的統計數字"},{"start":29.364,"end":56.016,"text":"但因為我國勞動力短缺就是本國籍的看護能量有限而且費用高或者家庭主要照顧者負擔非常的沉重那嚴重影響生活品質那麼對於現行申請看護的門檻巴斯亮表示必須低於對應的標準獲得到醫師團隊的專業評量同意否則即使高齡到百歲也沒有辦法請看護那大部分的醫師的評量都比較嚴格那通過難度很高那麼社會其實對於"},{"start":57.517,"end":81.305,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":81.505,"end":106.826,"text":"學者專家來做出門討論,再求一個具體的決議。那對衛福部這邊提到兩個理由,感覺衛福部是不支持的,可是我們其實要特別提到,衛福部提到兩個點,第一是說對整個長照產業的一個影響,那另外一部分是說對刻板印象。那我覺得衛福部這邊應該怎麼樣去思考讓國人八十歲以上長者能夠有更好的生活品質,這才真正的考量的重點。"},{"start":107.346,"end":125.657,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":125.657,"end":141.186,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":141.326,"end":141.346,"text":"議員：鄭正鈐"}]}},{"id":"152978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b370396acf3e02fecb5186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24e40d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:12:11 - 09:13:00","影片長度":"00:00:49","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":49,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:13:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:12:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.80221875,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.814093750000001,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.774093750000002,"end":46.977218750000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.742,"end":23.592,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":23.834,"end":46.495,"text":"我們在申請經費的時候他都這樣說那希望就原住民的看護工來講應該就是按照平均移民的一個縮短差距的理由來看就是10歲左右所以我們原住民來看的話就是70歲如果說這條法案是可以通過80歲的話我們原住民民主就自動降到70歲就不用再贅述好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b393cb0f4fae3421fb5186e4a1bc6f964ee1548db29109d24e18318873d924b4585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:08:40 - 09:11:44","影片長度":"00:03:04","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員萬美玲等36人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等16人擬具「勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n【一（九） ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【一(十)、(十一) ：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月27日、29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":184,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:11:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:08:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.898468750000003,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.860968750000005,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.82659375,"end":40.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.969718750000006,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.91034375,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.359718750000006,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.734718750000006,"end":62.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.39659375,"end":63.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.08846875,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.17659375000001,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.63409375,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.67534375000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.11346875000001,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.78221875,"end":150.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":182.09534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.048,"end":32.912,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天針對本院的委員包括個人包括楊瓊英、馬文君、圖全吉、李玉玲還有鄭振銓包括張家俊、王育敏、王宏威等我想針對就業服務法第46條條文的修正草案"},{"start":34.092,"end":62.439,"text":"顧足聘外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者之資格條件若年齡超過八十歲以上得免經醫療機構之專業評估我想為什麼本院有這麼多委員同時提出這樣的一個法案主要就是因為已經步入高齡化的社會而且"},{"start":64.205,"end":82.961,"text":"我們也看到很多過去為了聘僱這些外籍的康護工但是因為他確實是有那個需要結果最後就是透過仲介仲介就用各種的方式來做處理我認為這個對這些高齡者的家庭來講"},{"start":89.066,"end":112.664,"text":"講實在話是另外一種很嚴重的一個負擔那我們希望說透過修法讓這些高齡化社會我們很多長者能夠得到真正他要是需要外籍看護工來照顧的話能夠真正落實來這個彌補我們現在已經不如高齡化社會的一個時代"},{"start":113.945,"end":136.684,"text":"因為其實齁一個長者你要給他聘外籍康復工他不一定會接受捏為什麼像我一個丈母娘九十歲我說欸我老丈人走了要不要留他來幫你忙他說不要他留著齁我自己要全都自己來動動了以後他腦筋不會頓化不一定說你給他聘請他就會要要"},{"start":137.905,"end":138.045,"text":"議員：林德福"},{"start":158.55,"end":158.951,"text":"議員：林德福"}]}},{"id":"152976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b353c070f1b1542211fcddaa0058768d2ee1548db29109d24e3c75c7788f2af55f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:10:29 - 09:14:14","影片長度":"00:03:45","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":225,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:14:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:10:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":98,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時10分）謝謝今天吳宗憲召委排案審查。本席所提案的有關增訂刑法第八十條之一，針對未成年兒少施行性犯罪，要取消刑事追訴的時效。本席會提出這樣的提案，主要是真的看到這個社會上有很多可能在年幼時候遭到性侵的這些女性朋友們，他們真的是沒有辦法把這件事說出口，而他不斷地隱忍這樣的傷痛，一直到他成年，也不見得可以立刻對外說明這樣的情況。包括本席在去年擔任臺中市副市長時，其實也看到有一些校園的校長對孩子的性侵案件，都已經過了刑事追訴期二十年，他才可以站出來，說出他被性侵的遭遇。而近期本席也獲知一個案件，是我過去認識的人，我很難想像他其實小時候被性侵，都已經事隔幾十年了，到現在他才敢把這件事情透露給他很信任的朋友，而這樣的痛苦也導致他的憂鬱、他的折磨，甚至讓他有自殺的想法。所以我認為這樣的性侵案件，特別是發生在孩子年幼時期的這些案件，對他們來講、對當事人來講，都是很難抹滅的傷害，而司法正義不應該刑事追溯期只有20年，對於事隔幾十年之後，他想要去起訴這些傷害他的人，我覺得我們的司法應該要賦予他有這樣的權利。包括我們看到在2022年未滿18歲被性侵的這些兒少人數，也都高達將近5,000件，更不用去講這當中還有很多潛在的黑數。而我們看到我們鄰近的韓國，韓國國會在2011年就通過了性侵害防止的修正案，直接廢除了追溯期，韓國能，我相信我們中華民國也一定可以，因為在立法上面我們一直都有進步的立法，所以我想在保護兒少的部分，我們該是時候要去加大力道。","所以今天本席特別提出來有關於增訂刑法第八十條之一，針對未成年兒少施行性犯罪，應該要取消刑事追訴的時效。我認為這個法案，如果我們想要給兒少更好的保護、要給女性朋友的權益更多的保障，還給他們在司法上面的正義，取消刑事追訴期是非常有必要，也希望我們這一個提案是可以跨黨派，然後朝野立委大家都有共識，也希望法務部可以共同支持我們通過這樣的法案，給予兒少更周延的保護，也還給女性朋友應該有的司法正義。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在先確定議事錄，請問各位，就上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）好，沒有的話，會議議事錄確定。","接著我們請機關代表報告，發言時間是3分鐘，首先請法務部徐次長報告。"],["徐次長錫祥：主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生。今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就併案審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案，代表本部列席報告，並備質詢。爰分述如下，敬請指教。","壹、前言","追訴權時效，係國家就犯罪行為經過一段期間未予追訴後，即不得再對該犯罪行為進行追訴。此等制度之目的除考量法秩序之安定性外，同時亦在督促執法機關善盡追訴義務。刑法自24年7月1日施行以來，有關追訴權時效及停止之規定，歷經94年2月2日、108年5月29日二度修法。刑法第八十條原規定依法定刑之不同而分別規範追訴權時效為1年至20年期間，於94年2月2日修正後，延長至5年至30年不等，再於108年5月29日修正後，為兼顧法定刑及法益權衡，並參考德國、日本立法例，特就犯最重本刑為死刑、無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑之罪，且死亡結果者，排除適用追訴權時效之規定。再有關刑法第八十三條追訴權時效停止之規定，於108年5月29日修法時，則著眼於維護國家刑罰權的實現，避免時效停止進行變相淪為犯罪者脫法的工具，故將原追訴權時效停止原因視為消滅之事由，由原規定於第一項第二款「審判程序依法律之規定或因被告逃匿而通緝，不能開始或繼續，而其期間已達第八十條第一項各款所定期間四分之一者」調整為「三分之一」，使追訴權時效停止原因消滅之時點向後延長，以兼衡實現訴追犯罪之目的及法安定性及社會秩序之考量。感謝各位委員長期對兒少權益保障的關心，本部由衷表示敬佩之意，對於委員提案修法之目的均表贊同，以下謹就委員所提法案之表示法制面上意見。","貳、本部就委員所提修正草案之意見","一、有關委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","修正刑法第八十三條第一項及第二項規定，明定未成年人為刑法第二百二十一條至第二百二十七條、第二百二十八條、第二百二十九條、第三百三十二條第二項第二款、第三百三十四條第二項第二款、第三百四十八條第二項第一款及其特別法之罪之被害人時，其追訴權時效至其成年前停止進行，並配合修正第二項規定，明定當被害人已成年，或被害人雖未成年，但對自身被害事實有充分認識，有意願及能力參與偵查及審判程序時，追訴權繼續進行。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第八十三條第一項規定時效停止進行之原因包含起訴、依法應停止偵查，及因犯罪行為人逃匿而通緝者。草案將此3種停止原因分列於第一款至第三款，本部敬表尊重。","2.追訴權時效制度設計之目的除法安定性及社會秩序之考量外，亦在督促執法機關善盡追訴義務，防止國家追訴怠惰，且避免因距案發時間已久而證據滅失，造成偵審錯誤判斷的危險。草案第一項第四款增訂對未成年被害人犯特定犯罪，於被害人成年（民法規定成年為18歲）之前，其追訴權之時效停止進行。然若欲就個別罪名增列特別追訴權時效停止之原因，宜就各法益、刑度、罪名審慎通盤考量為妥。","3.依照現行刑法第八十條之規定，性侵害犯罪（不含特別法）之追訴權時效已有20至30年期間，不致造成此類案件於被害人成年後欲尋求刑事程序，卻因罹於追訴權時效而無法訴追之情形，故第八十三條是否有修正必要，建請再酌。","4.草案有關「及其特別法之罪」所指為何，若未具體規定，恐有違明確性原則。","二、有關委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案","(一)提案重點","增訂第八十條之一，使對未成年人行妨害性自主或強制性交等罪，不受刑法第八十條追訴時效之適用，以免犯罪者因時效消滅不受國家追訴制裁。","(二)本部意見","1.追訴權時效制度設計之目的除法安定性及社會秩序之考量外，亦在督促執法機關善盡追訴義務，防止國家追訴怠惰，且避免因距案發時間已久而證據滅失，造成偵審錯誤判斷的危險。草案增訂對未成年被害人犯特定犯罪，無追訴權時效之限制。然若欲就個別罪名排除追訴權時效之適用，宜就各法益、刑度、罪名審慎通盤考量為妥。","2.依照現行刑法第八十條之規定，性侵害犯罪（不含特別法）之追訴權時效已有20至30年期間，不致造成此類案件於被害人成年後欲尋求刑事程序，卻因罹於追訴權時效而無法訴追之情形，故第八十條是否有修正必要，建請再酌。","3.草案有關「及其特別法之罪」所指為何，若未具體規定，恐有違明確性原則。","以上報告，敬請主席及各位委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝次長。其餘機關報告請參閱書面。","機關代表報告完畢，相關書面報告列入公報紀錄。"],["法務部書面資料：","併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案書面報告","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","今天奉邀列席　大院貴委員會就併案審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案，代表本部列席報告，並備質詢。爰分述如下，敬請指教。","壹、前言","追訴權時效，係國家就犯罪行為經過一段期間未予追訴後，即不得再對該犯罪行為進行追訴。此等制度之目的除考量法秩序之安定性外，同時亦在督促執法機關善盡追訴義務。刑法自24年7月1日施行以來，有關追訴權時效及停止之規定，歷經94年2月2日、108年5月29日二度修法。刑法第80條原規定依法定刑之不同而分別規範追訴權時效為1年至20年期間，於94年2月2日修正後，延長至5年至30年不等，再於108年5月29日修正後，為兼顧法定刑及法益權衡，並參考德國、日本立法例，特就犯最重本刑為死刑、無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑之罪，且死亡結果者，排除適用追訴權時效之規定。再有關刑法第83條追訴權時效停止之規定，於108年5月29日修法時，則著眼於維護國家刑罰權的實現，避免時效停止進行變相淪為犯罪者脫法的工具，故將原追訴權時效停止原因視為消滅之事由，由原規定於第1項第2款「審判程序依法律之規定或因被告逃匿而通緝，不能開始或繼續，而其期間已達第80條第1項各款所定期間四分之一者」調整為「三分之一」，使追訴權時效停止原因消滅之時點向後延長，以兼衡實現訴追犯罪之目的及法安定性及社會秩序之考量。感謝各位委員長期對兒少權益保障的關心，本部由衷表示敬佩之意，對於委員提案修法之目的均表贊同，以下謹就委員所提法案之表示法制面上意見。","貳、本部就委員所提修正草案之意見","一、有關委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案","(一)提案重點","修正刑法第83條第1項及第2項規定，明定未成年人為刑法第221條至第227條、第228條、第229條、第332條第2項第2款、第334條第2項第2款、第348條第2項第1款及其特別法之罪之被害人時，其追訴權時效至其成年前停止進行，並配合修正第2項規定，明定當被害人已成年，或被害人雖未成年，但對自身被害事實有充分認識，有意願及能力參與偵查及審判程序時，追訴權繼續進行。","(二)本部意見","1.現行刑法第83條第1項規定時效停止進行之原因包含起訴、依法應停止偵查，及因犯罪行為人逃匿而通緝者。草案將此3種停止原因分列於第1款至第3款，本部敬表尊重。","2.追訴權時效制度設計之目的除法安定性及社會秩序之考量外，亦在督促執法機關善盡追訴義務，防止國家追訴怠惰，且避免因距案發時間已久而證據滅失，造成偵審錯誤判斷的危險。草案第1項第4款增訂對未成年被害人犯特定犯罪，於被害人成年（民法規定成年為18歲）之前，其追訴權之時效停止進行。然若欲就個別罪名增列特別追訴權時效停止之原因，宜就各法益、刑度、罪名審慎通盤考量為妥。","3.依照現行刑法第80條之規定，性侵害犯罪（不含特別法）之追訴權時效已有20至30年期間，不致造成此類案件於被害人成年後欲尋求刑事程序，卻因罹於追訴權時效而無法訴追之情形，故第83條是否有修正必要，建請再酌。","4.草案有關「及其特別法之罪」所指為何，若未具體規定，恐有違明確性原則。","二、有關委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案","(一)提案重點","增訂第80條之1，使對未成年人行妨害性自主或強制性交等罪，不受刑法第80條追訴時效之適用，以免犯罪者因時效消滅不受國家追訴制裁。","(二)本部意見","1.追訴權時效制度設計之目的除法安定性及社會秩序之考量外，亦在督促執法機關善盡追訴義務，防止國家追訴怠惰，且避免因距案發時間已久而證據滅失，造成偵審錯誤判斷的危險。草案增訂對未成年被害人犯特定犯罪，無追訴權時效之限制。然若欲就個別罪名排除追訴權時效之適用，宜就各法益、刑度、罪名審慎通盤考量為妥。","2.依照現行刑法第80條之規定，性侵害犯罪（不含特別法）之追訴權時效已有20至30年期間，不致造成此類案件於被害人成年後欲尋求刑事程序，卻因罹於追訴權時效而無法訴追之情形，故第80條是否有修正必要，建請再酌。","3.草案有關「及其特別法之罪」所指為何，若未具體規定，恐有違明確性原則。","以上報告，敬請","主席及各位委員指教。"],["司法院書面資料：","一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。二、繼續併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十七)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。司法院書面報告","主席、各位委員、各位先進：","今天貴院司法及法制委員會會議一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。二、繼續併案審查(一)委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。(十七)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案，本院奉邀前來列席，深感榮幸，謹說明本院意見如下，敬請指教：","壹、中華民國刑法第80條之1草案、第83條修正草案部分：","一、現代民主法治國不允許私刑，犯罪行為的追訴及處罰專屬於國家，如國家刑事追訴權遲不發動，相關物證流失，證人記憶逐漸模糊，即便欲進行審判，可能造成訴訟上的障礙，為防止國家追訴的怠惰，並基於法律安定性，故有追訴權時效制度。現行刑法第80條第1項規定：「追訴權，因下列期間內未起訴而消滅：一、犯最重本刑為死刑、無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑之罪者，30年。但發生死亡結果者，不在此限。二、犯最重本刑為3年以上10年未滿有期徒刑之罪者，20年。三、犯最重本刑為1年以上3年未滿有期徒刑之罪者，10年。四、犯最重本刑為1年未滿有期徒刑、拘役或罰金之罪者，5年。」至於時效期間之起算點，同條第2項規定：「前項期間自犯罪成立之日起算。但犯罪行為有繼續之狀態者，自行為終了之日起算。」","二、再者，我國就時效制度，捨「時效中斷制」，而專採「時效停止制」。因追訴權消滅時效之進行，既以怠不行使追訴權為前提，若已行使，即不生時效進行之問題，應予以停止進行；又偵查程序依法應停止或因犯罪行為人逃匿而通緝等非可歸責偵查機關，被告亦與有責任之事由時，為避免寬縱犯罪，時效亦不宜繼續進行，故現行刑法第83條第1項，將「起訴」、「依法應停止偵查」、「因犯罪行為人逃匿而通緝」，列為時效停止進行之事由。又每一刑事案件，一經起訴，時效即停止進行，對被告殊為不利，為緩其嚴苛，故於同條第2項明定停止原因視為消滅之事由，以利時效繼續進行。且於同條第3項規定：「前二項之時效，自停止原因消滅之日起，與停止前已經過之期間，一併計算。」","三、關於未成年人遭性侵害案件，為保障被害人之權益，避免姑息犯罪，外國立法例就其追訴權時效，容有下列不同的設計方式：(一)排除追訴權時效：通常僅就重罪而設，例如德國刑法第78條第2項規定，就包括為滿足性慾在內的謀殺罪，無追訴權時效。美國法典第3283條規定，對未滿18歲之人犯性虐待罪，無追訴權時效。日本刑事訴訟法第250條規定，以死亡為犯罪構成要件，且法定最重本刑為死刑之犯罪，不受追訴權時效之限制。奧地利、丹麥、義大利等國刑法，則就最重本刑為死刑、無期徒刑之罪，排除追訴權時效之適用。(二)追訴權時效停止進行：例如德國刑法第78條b規定，違犯與兒童性交等罪，於被害人年滿30歲之前，時效停止進行。(三)延長追訴權時效期間：例如瑞士刑法第97條規定，違犯與兒童為性行為等罪，追訴權時效至少持續至被害人年滿25歲為止。(四)追訴權時效延後起算：例如奧地利刑法第58條第3項第3款規定，犯妨害性自主等罪，如犯罪時，被害人尚未成年，則上開犯罪之追訴權時效，於被害人年滿28歲之前，不算入其間。","四、委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」，擬將對未成年人犯刑法第221條至第227條、第228條、第229條、第332條第2項第2款、第334條第2項第2款、第348條第2項第1款及其特別法之罪（即性侵害犯罪防制法第2條第1款所稱「性侵害犯罪」，以下簡稱性侵害犯罪），排除刑法第80條追訴權時效之適用，係採前述(一)之立法例；委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」，擬將性侵害犯罪之被害人尚未成年者，增列為時效停止進行之事由，係採前述(二)之立法例，均有所本，事涉刑事政策決定，本院尊重主責機關及貴院之職權。並請斟酌各國關於追訴權時效制度各有特色，例如我國關於性侵害案件之追訴權時效期間通常為20年，與德國、瑞士、奧地利等國相較為長，且性侵害案件於時隔久遠之後，是否確有採證上之困難。另基於刑法體系之完整性，針對被害人為成年人之犯罪、及對未成年人犯性侵害犯罪以外之其他犯罪，是否一併通盤檢討其追訴權時效，以免輕重失衡。又性侵害案件態樣不一，刑責有高低之別，其追訴權時效是否適合層級化處理。倘若將未成年人遭性侵害案件排除追訴權時效之適用，是否宜有配套措施，例如參照刑事妥速審判法之精神，給予酌減其刑之機會。此外，草案擬將「被害人已成年，或對自身被害事實有充分認識，有意願及能力參與偵查及審判程序」，定為停止原因視為消滅之事由，所稱「對自身被害事實有充分認識」、「有意願及能力參與偵查及審判程序」等要件，是否足夠明確，亦請斟酌。","貳、中華民國刑法第339條、第339條之3及第339條之4等修正草案部分：","同本院113年5月16日出具之書面報告。","最後，本院再次對　貴院關注追訴權時效制度及遏阻詐騙歪風等重要議題，費心修法，表達感佩之意。以上報告，敬請各位委員、先進指教，謝謝各位。"],["主席：提案說明以及機關報告都已經進行完畢。現在我們開始進行詢答，本會委員發言時間為8分鐘；非本會委員為4分鐘，均不再延長。上午10時30分截止發言登記。","現在請登記第一位沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.140343750000003,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.70534375,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.60471875000002,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.21409375000002,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.02846875,"end":225.36284375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.549,"end":28.533,"text":"進行提案說明。謝謝今天吳宗憲召委排案審查本席所提案的有關於徵定刑法第八十條之一,針對未成年兒少施行性犯罪要取消刑事追訴的時效。那本席會這樣子提出這樣的一個提案。"},{"start":29.173,"end":49.177,"text":"主要是真的看到這個社會上有很多他可能在年幼的時候遭到性侵的這一些女性朋友們他們真的是沒有辦法把這件事說出口而這樣的一個傷痛他不斷的隱忍一直到他成年"},{"start":49.837,"end":69.587,"text":"也不見得可以立刻對外來說明這樣的一個情況包括 本席在去年擔任台中市副市長其實也看到了有一些校園的校長對孩子的性侵案件都已經過了刑事追溯期的20年他才可以站出來說出"},{"start":70.908,"end":86.088,"text":"他被性侵的這樣的一個遭遇而近期本席也獲知一個案件是過去我曾經認識的人我很難想像他其實小時候被性侵那事隔都已經是幾十年了"},{"start":86.809,"end":107.435,"text":"到現在他才敢把這件事情透露給他很信任的朋友而這樣的痛苦也導致他的憂鬱他的折磨甚至讓他有自殺的想法所以我認為這樣的一個性侵案件特別是發生在孩子年幼時期的這些案件對他們來講對當事人來講都是很難抹滅的傷害而司法正義不應該行事追溯期只有20年"},{"start":116.118,"end":134.813,"text":"對於這一些事隔幾十年之後他想要去起訴這一些傷害他的人我覺得我們的司法應該要賦予他有這樣的一個權利那包括我們看到在2022年未滿18歲被性侵的這一些兒少的人數"},{"start":135.333,"end":140.118,"text":"而我們看到我們鄰近的韓國韓國國會在2011年他就通過了性侵害防止的修正案他直接廢除了追溯期"},{"start":157.238,"end":176.538,"text":"韓國能我相信我們中華民國也一定可以因為我們在立法上面我們一直都有進步的立法所以在保護兒少的部分我想這個部分我們該是時候要去加大力道所以今天本席特別提出來"},{"start":178.089,"end":204.171,"text":"有關於徵令刑法第八十條之一針對未成年兒少施行性犯罪應該要取消刑事追溯的時效。那我認為這一個法案如果我們想要給兒少更好的保護我們要給女性朋友就是他們的權益更多的保障那還給他們在司法上面的正義取消這樣的刑事追溯期"},{"start":204.651,"end":204.931,"text":"議員王育敏議員"}]}},{"id":"152975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b383b2eed9f5ba5f76fcddaa0058768d2ee1548db29109d24e7cf64100f1aa8a575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:06:16 - 09:10:24","影片長度":"00:04:08","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-27","duration":248,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-26"},"end_time":"2024-05-27T09:10:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-27T09:06:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":93,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時6分）主席以及各位在場同仁。非常感謝今天吳宗憲召委能夠再排審刑法第八十三條性侵追訴期延長的修正案。去年的Me Too事件促使了性平三法大翻修，很可惜其中關於延長兒少性侵追訴時效的修法，並未及時充分地被討論以及修正。因此，本席在本會期再次提出延長兒少性侵追訴時效的刑法修正草案，最重要就是要將追訴期從一開始起算到被害人成年之後，或是有意願、有能力可以參與偵查及審判程序時才開始起算，以充分保障被害人的權利。","首先，有鑑於兒童跟青少年在歷經性侵害後，往往不容易在短時間內揭發被性侵害的經歷，我們也看到非常多的案例，包括有國小學童可能在相關的求學過程當中，被他最親近的人性侵害，但等到他成年之後，始敢吐露他的心聲，而且往往是多人被害，有一個人開始吐露之後，才能夠開始揭發這樣的犯行。澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構進行兒童性侵調查時發現，倖存者平均要花23.9年，才敢第一次揭露童年被性侵的經歷。基於兒少性侵跟猥褻案件的特殊性，兒少遭遇性侵及猥褻的當下往往不知道自己正遭受到侵害，或是在當下不知道怎麼樣行使權利，亦或是迫於加害人巨大權力的不對等，當下難以求助，而日後或成年有可能已經超過了刑事追訴期，也因此我們當然要予以修正。","因此，本席特別提出修正刑法第八十三條第一項、第二項的規定，明定追訴權時效至成年前停止進行；明定當被害者已成年，或是當被害者雖然未成年，但是對於自身被害的事實有充分認識，有意願及能力能夠參與偵查及審判的程序時，追訴權才繼續進行。我想這是一個態度問題，也是我們中華民國要跟全國人民宣告的態度事項，任何的犯罪者，你不要意圖染指未成年人，尤其是用性侵害、暴力的手段去不當地對待。我想現在我們在一個網路世代，非常多的科技日新月異，也越來越多年輕的朋友、未成年朋友能夠大鳴大放，但是我們並不是老古板，我們在修正這樣的法令的時候，並不是以威權的方式去看待，而是當我們要給予最基本的保障，如果有任何的犯罪者利用自己的權勢、身分、地位，意圖對於未成年的，不管是少男、少女進行性侵害的話，我們一定予以嚴懲，這也是為什麼本席特別提出來刑法第八十三條的修正案。而且我們看到司法院也有整理出，無論是德國、美國、日本、奧地利、丹麥、義大利等相關的國家，都對於相關的犯罪有延長追訴權，或者是無期限的追訴權。也因此，我認為我們中華民國、我們臺灣應該與時俱進，請各位委員及行政部門能夠支持本席的修法──刑法第八十三條，我們一起努力，為青少年、為未成年兒童築起一道可以保護他們，最基本的保護牆，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員。","接下來我們請王育敏委員進行提案說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員黃健豪\n等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(八)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之\n四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三\n及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四\n條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十\n九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第\n三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135102_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7478437500000004,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.51471875,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.453468750000006,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.09721875,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.57284375,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.78596875000002,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.64784375000002,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.86284375000002,"end":185.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.01034375,"end":226.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.78034375000001,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.87534375,"end":245.98409375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.785,"end":25.698,"text":"主席以及各位在場同仁非常感謝今天吳宗憲委員吳宗憲召委能夠在排刑法第八十三條性侵追溯期延長的修正案。去年咪兔事件促使了性平三法的大翻修很可惜其中關於延長兒少性侵追溯時效的修法並未及時充分的被討論以及修正。"},{"start":26.198,"end":48.814,"text":"因此本席在本會期再次提出延長兒少性侵追訴時效的憲法修正草案。最重要就是要將追訴期從一開始起算到變成被害人成年之後或是有意願有能力可以參與偵查及審判程序時才開始起算以充分保障被害人的權利。"},{"start":50.543,"end":65.897,"text":"首先有見兒童跟青少年在歷經性侵害後往往不容易在短時間內揭發性侵害的經歷。我們也看到非常多的案例包括說有國小學童可能他在相關的求學過程當中"},{"start":66.557,"end":94.891,"text":"被他最親近的人遭受到性侵害但等到他成年之後使得敢吐露他的心聲而且往往是多人被害有一個人開始吐露之後才能夠開始揭發這樣的一個犯行澳洲皇家調查委員會的全國機構兒童性侵調查發現性存者平均要花23.9年才第一次揭露兒童年的性侵經歷"},{"start":96.644,"end":122.1,"text":"基於兒少的性侵及猥褻案件的特殊性兒少遭遇性侵及猥褻的當下往往不知道自己正遭受到侵害或是在當下不知道怎麼樣行使權利或是迫使與加害人巨大權利的不對等當下難以求助而過了日後跟成年有可能已經超過了刑事追溯期也因此我們當然要予以修正"},{"start":122.6,"end":147.253,"text":"因此本席特別提出來修正刑法八十三條第一項第二項的規定乃明定追溯其權、其效至成年前停止進行明定當被害者已成年或是當被害者雖然未成年但是對於自身被害的事實充分認識有意願及能力能夠參與偵查及審判的程序時追溯權才繼續進行"},{"start":149.674,"end":166.092,"text":"我想這是一個態度問題也是我們中華民國要跟全國人民宣告的態度事項任何的犯罪者你不要意圖想要直染未成年尤其是用性侵害暴力手段來去不當的對待"},{"start":167.134,"end":183.812,"text":"拜託現在我們在一個網路世代非常多的科技日新月異包括年輕的朋友未成年的朋友也越來越多能夠大鳴大放的時候但是我們並不是老古板我們在修正這樣的一個法令的時候並不是以"},{"start":187.834,"end":201.5,"text":"而是當我們要給予最基本的保障如果說有任何的犯罪者利用自己的權勢身份地位意圖對於未成年的不管是少男少女來進行性侵害的話"},{"start":202.059,"end":225.551,"text":"我們一定予以嚴懲也因此這是為什麼本席特別提出來刑法八十三條而且我們也看到司法院也整理出無論是德國美國日本奧地利丹麥意大利等相關的國家都對於相關的犯罪有延長追訴權或者是無期限的追訴權也因此我們認為"},{"start":226.872,"end":244.854,"text":"中華民國我們台灣應該與時俱進因此請各位委員及行政部門能夠支持本席的修法刑法八十三條我們一起努力為青少年為未成年的兒童來築起一道可以保護他們的最基本的保護牆謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}