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十一款如下。九、家庭幫庸工作。十、家庭看護工作。十一、機構看護工作。現行第十款、第十一款以列為第十二款、第十三款。修正第三項守具為"},{"start":2148.25,"end":2172.166,"text":"顧主一第一項第八款至第十二款規定聘僱外國人令增訂第四項如下顧主一第一項第十款規定聘僱外國人被看護者若年齡滿八十歲以上得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同委員黃建斌等二十人提案第四十六條增訂第四項如下顧主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者凡年齡滿八十歲以上"},{"start":2173.587,"end":2196.134,"text":"或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同。委員王玉敏等17人提案第46條修正第一項第九款違九家庭幫庸、機構看護及家庭看護工作令增訂第四項如下。僱主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作、被看護者年齡滿80歲以上"},{"start":2197.734,"end":2224.338,"text":"或符合其他經主管機關認定之事項得免經醫療機構之專業評估予以現行法同。委員盧憲一等17人提案第46條第二項後段增列但前項第九款之家庭看護工其被看護者具有原住民身份者其評估與認定方式應會同衛生福利部及原住民族委員會定之予以現行法同。委員鄭正前等17人提案第46條現行第三項已列為第四項"},{"start":2227.799,"end":2257.209,"text":"令增訂第三項如下顧主依前項審查標準聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作若被看護者年滿80歲以上免經醫療機構專業評估予以現行法同委員圖春吉等17人提案第47條修正第一項守具為顧主聘僱外國人從事前條第一項第八款至第十三款規定之工作予以現行法同委員圖春吉等17人提案第48條修正第六項如下"},{"start":2257.689,"end":2285.418,"text":"中央主管機關對從事第四十六條第一項第八款至第十三款規定工作之外國人得規定其國別及數額予以現行法同。委員圖春吉等17人提案第53條修正第三項莫具為不得從事同條項第八款至第十三款規定之工作並修正第四項守具為受聘務從事第四十六條第一項第八款至第十三款規定工作之外國人予以現行法同。"},{"start":2286.078,"end":2297.275,"text":"委員圖春吉等17人提案第54條修正第一項守據為僱主聘僱外國人從事第46條第一項第8款至第13款規定之工作予以現行法同"},{"start":2299.468,"end":2326.752,"text":"委員呂玉玲等16人提案第55條修正第一項文字第八款至第十款為第八款、頓號第十款刪除現行第三項並將現行第四項至第七項以列為第三項至第六項予以現行法同委員圖春季等17人提案第59條修正第一項守據為外國人受聘僱從事第46條第一項第八款至第十三款規定之工作予以現行法同"},{"start":2327.773,"end":2343.232,"text":"繼續宣讀勞動基準法第五十條條文修正草案委員外美林等36人提案委員徐宇珍等18人提案委員馬文君等20人提案委員邱若驊等16人提案現行法條文對照表委員外美林等36人提案"},{"start":2344.013,"end":2358.255,"text":"女工分免前後應停止工作基於產假12星期,認成3個月以上流產者應停止工作基於產假4星期。前項女工受雇在工作6個月以上者停止工作期間工資照給。"},{"start":2359.176,"end":2375.526,"text":"若分免第二胎以上子女以1.2倍發給受僱未滿6個月者減半發給若分免第二胎以上子女以7成發給前項女工分免第二胎以上子女加大至2成工資僱主得向中央主管機關申請補助"},{"start":2376.727,"end":2395.382,"text":"委員徐玉珍等18人提案女性勞工分娩前後應停止工作基於產假12星期認成3個月以上流產者應停止工作基於產假4星期認成2個月以上未滿3個月流產者應使其停止工作基於產假1星期認成未滿2個月流產者"},{"start":2397.524,"end":2413.768,"text":"應使其停止工作及於產假5日。前項女性勞工受雇工作在6個月以上者停止工作期間工資照給未滿6個月者檢辦發給。委員馬文君等20人提案第一項前段女工分娩前後應停止工作"},{"start":2414.188,"end":2437.082,"text":"及於產假12星期第二項後段未滿6個月者得案比例減少發給但不得低於工資之半數予以現行法同委員秋洛華等16人提案修正文字女工為女性勞工第一項前段女性勞工分免前後應停止工作及於產假12星期予以現行法同宣讀完畢"},{"start":2441.052,"end":2464.407,"text":"好那現在我們就開始進行討論事項的第一案有關於就業服務法部分條文修正草案計9案進行逐條審查那現在請委員表示意見有沒有委員有意見修正動議"},{"start":2469.418,"end":2494.911,"text":"對,修正東西就直接討論,不用再宣讀了,直接討論就好,有併進來。好,來。沒有發嗎?委員會發給大家?禮拜一有發?禮拜一不是已經有發過一次嗎?那今天誰送?今天有新增的嗎?有委員的嗎?新增的在哪裡?印給大家?還在印是不是?"},{"start":2499.95,"end":2500.352,"text":"剛剛才收到?"},{"start":2502.452,"end":2527.803,"text":"好 那沒有關係 那個部分就是持續應好不好 那委員還是可以先表達意見 來請陳昭芝委員 蘇星泉委員謝謝 謝謝主席 我看各位委員們提案裡面的共識度是蠻高的 80歲的長者因為往往面臨這個身體的功能下降變差 那他們身上的疾病在科學的證據來看也是相對比較多 而且可能是服藥最多的一個族群"},{"start":2528.723,"end":2554.167,"text":"那他們需要長期持續的照顧的比例非常的高假設這個巴士量表是沒有辦法完全來反映他們的目前的這個需求所以如果能夠免除所謂的巴士量表的評估那有很多個優點第一個簡化他整個申請的程序對這個家庭看護那能夠減輕該家庭成員的負擔因為他的家庭成員可能都是在工作的生產力非常重要的一群"},{"start":2554.787,"end":2559.473,"text":"另外就是能夠避免延誤這些長者獲得即時照顧的這個機會所以把申請門檻的降低是有效能夠緩解那外籍看護的這個他們的貢獻就基礎的生活照顧情感陪伴支持等其實讓長者得到這個安全跟舒適感這也"},{"start":2571.788,"end":2590.243,"text":"檢小孤獨感這個基本上是大家都肯定的所以這個部分我們本黨還有我們本席是我們都是完全支持這個80歲以上這一次就跟很多位委員他們得免禁醫療機構之專業評估那主席我另外有一個有關這個家庭幫傭的部分"},{"start":2591.064,"end":2607.021,"text":"因為現在有一些人他雖然還沒有到80歲可是他是一個弱雖然相對是老弱的家庭他們是在行動上或是在身體體力上雖然他不一定有特定的一個疾病那這些人我們是要預防他發生小意外譬如跌倒"},{"start":2607.802,"end":2625.605,"text":"那如果說預防是用於治療因為他如果發生了這個意外我們都了解他大概整個身體狀況就會直接走下坡每況愈下那後來要需要用到的健康醫療資源也是都存在的所以我們本期想額外建議就是說對於家庭幫傭的部分就是80歲以上"},{"start":2626.366,"end":2654.751,"text":"當然這個地方要經過一些評估剛剛我談的我們談的是家庭看護那80歲以上的這個直系血清就是他的長者經過醫療機構以這個團隊的方式來做評估那有輕度依賴照護者我們希望在這個部分也可以考慮來放寬這個家庭幫傭的部分就是不要讓這一群人他能夠就是說我們就預期他一旦他在比較一個衰弱狀況下他跌倒摔跤等等"},{"start":2655.431,"end":2676.346,"text":"後續的問題其實就都產生了好謝謝主席好請蘇星泉委員好來蘇星泉委員請上那個我們是不是可以先休息個5分鐘因為大家手上都沒有資料沒關係先讓委員發言來對啦裝的事情不要今天又起來說了啦"},{"start":2679.358,"end":2687.974,"text":"我這邊要特別強調我是一個臨床醫師我們一長久以來最大的困擾就是八十兩票"},{"start":2689.761,"end":2713.788,"text":"那這一次總統大選事實上三個候選人都有同樣的共識就是要給換款啦當然也很感謝那個時候的薛瑞文還有當時的副總統賴清德他們馬上從善如流馬上就改善這是事實那也要給他們拍拍手那這個法是我是覺得這個法應該是要修一下"},{"start":2714.813,"end":2740.632,"text":"因為80位醫生現在老而慘、老而病病而貧所以台灣現在碰到的問題一大堆的內科疾病都摻雜在一起老人家我們最怕的是什麼呢?最怕摔倒、跌倒跌倒之後骨頭就斷斷就臥床不然就開刀所以一個看護來告護他這是應該的不然的話"},{"start":2741.773,"end":2745.915,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件"},{"start":2761.923,"end":2787.653,"text":"所以很困擾那寫這個80量表對臨床醫師是一個壓力壓力以前35分那是很嚴格那現在有80歲以上又放寬到50分到55分鬆一點那所以這個法這個法我是覺得要修啦那另外一個我要請教部長就是說這個盧憲毅他有提那個原住民"},{"start":2788.773,"end":2805.878,"text":"嚴志明到底說不一樣?因為嚴志明是用55歲當退休我們是65歲他們是55歲所以盧嫻儀的這個想法是可能是是不是要他們的更往前這個部長你要注意一下以上好 謝謝你會請外媒嗎?好來"},{"start":2813.609,"end":2817.411,"text":"楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":2830.137,"end":2854.159,"text":"大概將近有63person還是在80歲以上事實上整個狀態是比較好的可是現在我們很擔心的就是有關重症的一些重度需求的家庭他就一再的申訴表示移工會比較喜歡去照顧有輕度有自主能力的人人都是會去挑工的所以這樣子他們一直都留不住移工的狀態裏邊"},{"start":2855.9,"end":2856.22,"text":"來 鄭天才委員"},{"start":2889.552,"end":2905.071,"text":"主席、各位委員、這個還有勞動部的所有的官員有關四十六條的部分這個除了盧憲伊委員在這個第二項增加半書的話"},{"start":2906.383,"end":2925.187,"text":"但前項第九款之家庭康復工其被康復者既有原住民身份者其評估以認定方式應會同衛生福利部及原住民組委會定制。這個部分上次質詢的時候這個按照這個勞動部的當時的報告"},{"start":2928.348,"end":2941.487,"text":"素面報告是支持這條單書規定本席另外有提修正動議特別在46條增加最後的一項"},{"start":2943.245,"end":2965.961,"text":"銀罩業僱主依第1項第10款,其他工作性質特殊,國內缺乏該項人才,在業務上切有聘僱外國人從事工作之必要,經中央主管機關專案核定者。我最主要就是針對這個"},{"start":2967.862,"end":2989.268,"text":"因照業僱主,依第一項第十款規定,聘僱外國人以取得招募許可後,每禁用原住民一人,或者是他不禁用的話,可以向原住民組織和發展基金繳納代金,就可以申請引進外國人兩人。"},{"start":2991.547,"end":3019.009,"text":"這個規定本來是規定在這個46條以及所授權定的這個標準裡面就是法勞動部所授權勞動部定的這個標準裡面但是因為這個勞動部在這個把它刪除了所以有必要放在這個法46條的最後一項以上"},{"start":3022.725,"end":3024.182,"text":"好接下來請林淑芬委員"},{"start":3030.307,"end":3048.955,"text":"謝謝 這個80歲以上要開放理論上我個人當然是樂見其成但是實際上實際上我想各位委員我們在這裡修法可是你真的要想到一個問題現在整個長照市場是缺工的狀況很嚴重而且我們已經講過了這個不是台灣人不做而已連這個外籍看護"},{"start":3054.677,"end":3058.798,"text":"他們對看護重症的人其實都不做所以這個你把這個門檻沒有設定需求說什麼樣條件是可以這個80歲以上就可以的你就全部健康的80歲都可以的話那我請問大家到時候缺工嚴重現在是外籍看護在挑老闆欸不是老闆在挑外籍看護欸"},{"start":3080.385,"end":3082.067,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們想你今天打開了一扇門我們可以樂觀啟程但是請問一下重症的這個重症的這個需求者他們缺乏照顧的人力的問題會不會因此更惡化而且會排擠到"},{"start":3098.061,"end":3100.263,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":3119.019,"end":3119.739,"text":"而這個嚴重就是大家都想要藉著這個吵架然後要換僱主嘛"},{"start":3143.294,"end":3148.359,"text":"所以這個換僱主的過程裡面然後承擔的就是個人聘僱的這一個僱主然後吵架完以後他就說夭壽你是不是對我恐嚇你是不是對我傷害然後夭壽然後這樣他就要轉換到去輕症的或者是到工廠裡面了"},{"start":3164.756,"end":3180.942,"text":"那你現在80歲全開放你用年齡層來開放而不是用那個真正的這個失能的需求或者是不要那麼條件那麼嚴苛的你用這個輕度的要設定他什麼只要他有需求要設定他的需求條件我們再來開放我們也不要漏接任何一個80歲以上他可能是輕度的有需求的"},{"start":3188.945,"end":3206.935,"text":"我們不要漏階調大家好好的談修法就是要好好的談有什麼樣的人需要把他接起來的現行的法律是不夠的現行的架構是不夠的我們把他們接起來以後那又不會他的衝擊又有限又不會衝擊排擠到重症看護的這個缺工的問題"},{"start":3212.418,"end":3239.772,"text":"所以如果要修這個沒有考慮到這一個問題的話只是片面的當好人全面都開放我覺得那留下來的這個排擠重症看護沒有人的問題怎麼辦要不然你要衛福部的配套系統要進來啊衛福部的配套系統如果也沒有進來我們就先開門了然後看護外籍看護都跑光光了留重症的老人在那裡年輕人要更可憐啊"},{"start":3242.373,"end":3251.886,"text":"重症的失能的人躺在那裡所有外籍看護來一個月就跑了來兩個月就跑了來三個月就跟你吵架然後又轉換僱主了"},{"start":3254.826,"end":3263.631,"text":"這個國家也沒有接起來,立法院也沒有接起來,我們本來修法的好意是不要漏接任何一個失能的長輩可是現在你這個門一開,輕度失能的接起來了,重症的卻把它丟掉了,重度失能的人把它丟掉了我今天在這裡我也只是這樣提醒大家啦,老實說你們硬要這樣子過我也是沒有辦法"},{"start":3277.739,"end":3301.671,"text":"可是真的是知識體大那除非有一個前提我們可以這樣子做我剛剛講要有源源不絕的外籍移工問題就不是啊就沒有世界各國都在開放大家都開放韓國日本也在搶工啊白人的國家也在搶工啊就是沒有源源不絕的移工啊"},{"start":3303.112,"end":3325.344,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們真的要想想看這樣子做下開這個門容易啦修這個法也容易啦但是問題是更嚴重重症的失能的在那裡的問題會更嚴重然後僱主跟外籍看護吵架的問題也會更嚴重"},{"start":3327.011,"end":3355.336,"text":"然後請問一下僱主每天都跟那外籍看護重症失能的家屬的僱主跟外籍看護每天在那裡吵架他們要怎麼辦所以修這個法的時候其實是利益良善但是真的會排擠到他們所以我最後再講一次現在是外籍移工在挑僱主現在是勞動力外籍勞動力的需求大過於供給"},{"start":3357.297,"end":3370.847,"text":"這個問題你沒有想先解決你就再把需求創造得更大都沒有供給了你還把需求創造得更大的狀況依照市場邏輯其實是墊高價格的啦是墊高價格的所以你要這樣開門我們也是樂觀騎乘啊你要這樣墊高我們大家要做好人"},{"start":3380.552,"end":3380.992,"text":"接下來我們請楊藥委員發言。"},{"start":3399.216,"end":3421.504,"text":"對 這個就是其實我覺得還是勞動力的來源問題所以當然我一直覺得用年齡或是我們把各項條件放寬這個本席是贊成的可是這個會產生幾個問題第一個就是會有排擠效用"},{"start":3426.286,"end":3438.297,"text":"而且我的判斷假如說大量的人都可以輕易的申請外勞那會不會造成是外勞選擇僱主外勞選擇僱主因為大家的"},{"start":3449.001,"end":3477.15,"text":"的條件一樣就申請條件一樣可是其實大家必須要被照顧的能量不同所以我覺得這個真的要我還是必須要講就是80歲以上或者是運用什麼長照的使用年限等等這一些東西我都是贊成的可是"},{"start":3479.821,"end":3485.487,"text":"勞動力的來源,我希望勞動部這邊還是必須要先做一下準備。好,謝謝。那還有沒有委員要發言?還有沒有其他委員要發言?如果沒有,我們是不是先第一階段先讓那個"},{"start":3500.034,"end":3522.054,"text":"主管機關來回應一下好不好第一個可能要回應一下就是就現行的就是這些重度失能他們使用外籍看護工的現況到底怎麼樣這個比例是多少就是有多少比例是使用外籍看護工有多少比例其實是使用機構有多少比例可能是使用這個照服員"},{"start":3522.895,"end":3546.459,"text":"那這個部分是不是長照是這邊有一些相關的數據因為剛剛有委員在提的就是說會不會有外籍移工他挑雇主那現行重度的本來大家其實就在照顧上比較吃力所以他可能轉換雇主的比例本來就高那這個就是現行的問題這個也不是說未來開不開放的問題就是說如果現行就已經有這個問題那到底我們衛福部"},{"start":3552.253,"end":3567.831,"text":"在這個部分是怎麼樣去讓這些外籍看護工讓他適應會增進他的技能讓他有能力去照顧重度的目前的現況到底是怎麼樣我覺得應該要優先來釐清一下好不好"},{"start":3569.946,"end":3588.112,"text":"來,請說明。昭緯這邊的詢問目前其實我們手上掌握的有進到我們長照體系的目前整個在我們住宿型機構這邊大概照顧10萬人所於就是說用我們給支付的這一塊目前是51萬人"},{"start":3590.334,"end":3602.128,"text":"當然他的年齡就是按我們的長照的服務對象並沒有鎖定在80歲以上他只要符合我們的CMS評估65歲以上跟全齡的身障者都在這51萬人的照顧範圍當然"},{"start":3607.474,"end":3629.532,"text":"對 就是在我們這邊那基本上屬於委員剛剛關心到說重度的這一塊我們基本上這10萬名住在住宿型機構幾乎接近九成都是重度的那使用我們長照這個擠支付這邊51萬人大概屬於這個重度的大概是接近三成"},{"start":3630.613,"end":3640.155,"text":"獎金約三成,多數是中度的,大概目前的樣貌是這樣。至於說聘請移工這邊,因為目前勞動部這邊統計是大概22萬人,這樣子一個被照顧者有聘請移工,那真的有22萬多人有進來使用我長照服務的,就是除了照顧服務以外的,包括輔具、包括喘息,"},{"start":3655.778,"end":3675.636,"text":"這樣的服務的人數大概八萬多人接近九萬八萬八千多人大概是目前的一個樣態數據是這樣以上說明那那個移工照顧重度的這部分的數字你們有掌握嗎我們這一塊沒有除非他有進來我們才有辦法掌握他的失能的等級"},{"start":3677.588,"end":3684.213,"text":"那現階段8萬8千多人有進來使用我們長照服務的幾乎是重度的占多數。有沒有比較更精確的統計?"},{"start":3694.336,"end":3713.554,"text":"因為22萬人如果沒有進到我們長照體系我們無法知道到底他的那個失能等級在我們的CMS評量是居於哪個位置所以這有一個落差對不對進機構的九成其實重度的都是收重度的嘛那你現在total你剛剛是說22萬"},{"start":3718.59,"end":3737.298,"text":"是被照顧者請移工來照顧的?對,22萬。但這22萬當中有多少比例是重症的?你們掌握不精確。你只能說他有使用你的輔具的,有使用長照資源的。他就使用我那個88000裡面,多數是重症的。"},{"start":3738.118,"end":3756.392,"text":"多數是重度的所以大概是8萬在移工照顧裡面的比例大概是8萬是屬於比較偏重症的嗎還是署長這邊補充我跟召委跟各位委員補充我們如果目前21萬多但是因為扣掉失聯之後目前有效評估大概是8萬多"},{"start":3757.233,"end":3772.894,"text":"如果以18萬多來做分析我跟委員報告大概目前以重症就是說以過去我們的評估八字量表因為35分以下大概就是重症這個裡面就佔了將近9萬9萬人是重症就幾乎是一半"},{"start":3773.835,"end":3794.642,"text":"那至於說輕重的因為可能就是35分以上的這一面35到65就是這比較屬於中度大概3萬8那輕度的目前也有部分開放就是到4千多人所以剛剛委員關心的確實因為目前以這個需求來講一半以上是以重度的為主"},{"start":3795.462,"end":3805.229,"text":"那現在也確實會擔心就是說如果一旦全面性的可能這個重症的家庭未來在引進的過程當中確實有可能會產生一些排擠跟困難我算以上做一個補充那你們在這個就是目前禁用上面重症的沒有優先嗎在媒合上面那可以設計嗎"},{"start":3819.383,"end":3848.405,"text":"等一下先讓我這個問題問因為我們目前開放自己資格只要符合條件我們就許可所以就讓他們自然配合你們並沒有說什麼優先因為每一個都有他的需求我們大概也沒有辦法說誰先併誰後但如果剛剛那麼多位委員擔心那個所謂的排擠效用不能去就是說你們在制度上設計因為大家都符合資格嘛但是因為這個你的需求大於供給"},{"start":3849.403,"end":3853.029,"text":"所以你在制度設計上面我們如果為了去滿足這當中重症的優先照顧的原則這個我覺得也合理有沒有可能在政策上面去"},{"start":3862.881,"end":3891.931,"text":"就是說他可能可以優先媒合權這個就像我們的社會住宅就是生多周少然後其實我們就會有政策上去獎勵比如說我們現在鼓勵這個少子女化所以有子女的家庭就優先嘛他有優先媒合權嗎我覺得這個在制度上或許可以進一步去思考這個大家一起來討論因為只是有多位委員都提到排擠的問題所以這個排擠的問題某些時候他是可以透過制度的設計"},{"start":3893.401,"end":3906.786,"text":"來達到他的優先性,他可以優先被滿足。這個是大家可以共同去思考的。主席,你剛剛講的思考,理論上是這樣子,但是實際上是不可行。我覺得制度是一回事,但我們真的要回到實務面。實務面是這樣子,我們本來騙顧外籍勞動力,外勞,我就這樣不禮貌地講,外勞以前,"},{"start":3922.671,"end":3928.855,"text":"其實都要本勞優先啊可是我們都知道我們去登記本勞優先那個程序啊其實是在延宕我們聘僱外勞的時間而已都是做假的、做形式的啦所以你剛才說強迫這個外籍看護進來都要強迫他先媒合到重症優先去可是不要忘了喔他可以拿著拿完假啊啊我們的法律是這樣規定說你不得轉換僱主喔"},{"start":3947.628,"end":3967.767,"text":"除非僱主犯錯,他就一直每天跟你玩雞玩狗,你一天動不動,你大聲說什麼,你如果再出手的時候,他就有正當性了。不要再說有出手沒出手,即便沒有出手,每天玩雞。請問一下,哪一個家庭的僱主受得了說,我要玩了,每天跟我搖巴插,每天玩雞?"},{"start":3968.988,"end":3980.776,"text":"所以你強迫他硬要他去康護那個重症,其實對於這個重症康護的這個家庭僱主來講,他也是很痛苦的,因為這個人根本就不愛,他要顧比較輕盈的,不然他要去工廠。你強迫他來這裡,每天到晚間晚間打不著他,結果僱主說:「好啦,我放你走啦!」"},{"start":3989.501,"end":4007.416,"text":"所以大家要搖巴擦,大家顧著老公,大家玩遊戲,你看那個家庭怎麼會好已經有一個失能的人在那裡已經夠痛苦了來照顧失能的康護每天跟我吵架,我上班回來要每天在吵架"},{"start":4008.553,"end":4019.701,"text":"所以這個中心你要看法律是一回事、法規是一回事但實務面執行起來流於形勢、淪為形勢你說重症優先這個併顧 那就不可能了 如果這樣做下去也是完蛋而已法律規定不能轉換僱主但是就不可能了"},{"start":4029.264,"end":4054.454,"text":"但重借也會加價,加價說要怎樣去完成讓你轉換僱主所以真的是我們知識體大但是大家所害怕擔心的說80歲以上真的有些部分是需要需要真的再開放寬鬆一點的條件給他們我們就這個務實的來談哪些條件是真的我們這個外籍看護的體系是可以再接住他們的那我們就這個很務實的來談"},{"start":4058.636,"end":4080.787,"text":"不要一次說八十歲都可以沒了你健康沒健康都可以這樣就重症沒人顧了是這樣啦好謝謝林委員我想請那個勞動部再補充一個資訊等一下勞動部剛剛沒有回答一個就是說如果依委員講就是說這些外籍看護工他對於重症他基本上"},{"start":4081.377,"end":4089.99,"text":"他是比較會排斥的。那就現行的你剛剛提到的9萬當中他們的轉換率到底是多少目前現況"},{"start":4094.47,"end":4116.855,"text":"根本沒辦法其實我們現行因為為了要確保它的穩定性它如果沒有其他事由是不能轉換的原則是不能轉換任意轉換所以有轉換一般就比如說有違規使用或者是說真的是經過雙方合議這個才能轉這是例外對那剛剛提到這個比例目前這個其實是因為法令上有些限制"},{"start":4117.475,"end":4131.858,"text":"不過確實這個有一些困擾是剛剛林委員確實提到尤其在疫情期間這個問題就被凸顯了就是大家就是因為引不進來的當下大家就搶那結果移工可能就我要選擇輕易的那這個過程當中就會造成僱主跟移工很多爭議"},{"start":4132.859,"end":4157.868,"text":"因為移工就要一再會要有這種爭議性的會造成勞僱之間其實不穩定而且不和諧所以我們是蠻建議就是說這個制度的設計可能要兼顧僱主跟移工雙方怎麼樣去衡平齁那也讓這個家庭的照顧也能夠獲得滿足所以可能單是以八十歲恐怕會造成類似就是說這個選擇的這個工作的這種糾紛可能就會產生出來這個以上但我不"},{"start":4159.205,"end":4182.131,"text":"我覺得不太懂那個邏輯就是說剛剛提到的是可能有一些看護工他對於重症的照顧他可能不是他有可能是能力沒辦法升任也有可能是意願不高那這個就是這種問題他是問題本身就存在的問題這個跟你要不要去開放其他我覺得這個是"},{"start":4183.261,"end":4202.392,"text":"兩件事情欸就是說這兩個其實不能這樣子完全混為一談如果說本質上面我們就已經看到現行的外籍看護工他對於照顧重症的這樣的一個患者他其實是辛苦的然後也會因為這樣子他可能工作倦怠可能會想要逃跑等等這些引發的糾紛那這個就是我們現行就存在的問題我們就應該去解決但是剛剛勞動部又說其實這個問題不大"},{"start":4212.113,"end":4231.498,"text":"這個其實不會因為這樣子轉換因為現行的規定是不會的所以我就覺得那到底問題在哪裡然後就是說開放80歲之後就會導致問題更嚴重那到底現在的問題是嚴重還是不嚴重啊他就說不嚴重啊他說沒有轉換的問題啊是剛剛勞動部講的他說不嚴重啊"},{"start":4238.722,"end":4256.263,"text":"來 我們先請蘇清泉委員發言我 不同意林淑雯講的啦 吼 那是怎樣的呢八十位醫生你如果放寬 那他可以請醫工進來 家庭看護身強體壯的人他也不會去申請啊 其實那個醫工也是要先睡的咧"},{"start":4258.105,"end":4274.972,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項"},{"start":4282.578,"end":4305.621,"text":"所以這個也不用那麼憂慮那麼多啦就是說因為你65位醫生現在要三百人啊那如果85位醫生現在有多少人這些數字我不知道啦那我現在問一個問題剛剛那個衛福部你講的說現在在家庭看護你不知道多少人是22萬人差不多家庭看護"},{"start":4307.096,"end":4331.045,"text":"沒有沒有沒有現在總共在家請家庭看護的現在到底多少人有沒有我的我的data22萬那目前因為扣掉失聯大概是8萬28萬那你的機構機構裡面的外外移工有沒有包括在這裡面沒有所以你是22家8萬個逃跑6萬個逃跑的然後再加上8萬個那個"},{"start":4333.837,"end":4351.665,"text":"你說居高安養的又28萬個那你就三十幾萬喔全部28逃跑6萬所以實際上是22而且逃跑的都是家庭看護工居多因為勞動條件很差阿你跟老的"},{"start":4355.451,"end":4372.389,"text":"不過他講的這個草的要轉換是有因為這人的天性嘛他照顧那個那麼嚴重啊讓他想想換輕鬆一點嘛就好像我們本國的那個造福員他一拿到證照不然要去機關洋啊沒有人要去大家也要去買一座一對一的"},{"start":4373.47,"end":4399.04,"text":"他就要一天的兩三千塊他就要安養中心他要第三班他的錢又沒有那麼多所以機構安養找不到本國的那個康復員找不到啊然後都是外籍的康復他們說來這裡小偷說一比四啦一比三啦沒有機構有開放不是用人頭的"},{"start":4400.18,"end":4405.487,"text":"阿所以我現在一直說你一直在講說阿沒有納入你這個機構安養的你就不知道阿好像你跟勞動部這邊是偷鉤的是不是這樣你種種住幾個你都搞不清楚"},{"start":4416.448,"end":4441.203,"text":"還有最後一個問題我不要再問這個移工進來到底看護的移工進來有沒有上線部長應該是沒有嘛沒有上線嘛對不對所以這個這個問題也不是問題吧全世界都在搶都在搶看護啊搶移工啊我們的觀念要改啊這些人將來是變成我們勞動力的一部分啦這是很嚴重的問題啊"},{"start":4443.186,"end":4444.987,"text":"黃秀芳、劉建國、陳穎、林月琴家庭看護公司22萬人逃跑18萬人"},{"start":4461.042,"end":4483.811,"text":"現在剩18萬嘛齁那其實我們在基層就會碰到很多的這個家庭看護工就剛剛像淑芬講的齁如果說這個是很難照顧的話可能他可能就真的每一天就跟僱主吵或者是說要求要加薪啦齁這個是真的在基層確實是碰到的這樣的一個問題齁那就是說"},{"start":4488.013,"end":4517.071,"text":"未來要怎麼樣讓像剛剛就像那個主席講的如果說切成80歲以上80歲以上就有這個有需求或者是說完全80歲以上他只要想申請就可以申請的話那確實會不會去排擠到原本重症的那我現在有看到就是說如果說他本來有需要他確實有需要然後就直接申請的話我覺得這個會不會是比較好的"},{"start":4518.091,"end":4545.41,"text":"對一般的民眾來講就是說不要以年齡來切就是說他只要有需要然後就可以來申請那我是不是就是說因為可能在一般的程序上一些行政程序應該要更便利讓有需要的民眾他是很容易去申請而不是說他還要有很繁瑣的一些文書或者是有一些很繁瑣的一個申請程序我希望這一方面應該要再加強"},{"start":4550.437,"end":4564.715,"text":"好 謝謝黃秀光召委接下來是劉建國委員所以申請外勞基本上公部門他有一定的手段這個手段也叫做有順序"},{"start":4566.016,"end":4582.277,"text":"他的優先數據其實他已經在實施了啦所以才有所謂的什麼症狀及斯文的診斷證明那護表才是那個巴士量表啦齁那因為我在禮拜二的時候我特別也感謝召委排這個案讓大家有充分投入空間"},{"start":4582.978,"end":4597.502,"text":"我想大家都是正面好意的希望可以幫這些需求者可以得到變名啦不要這麼煩雜要申請到的人申請不到還是要申請可以申請的人反而在醫院裡面起死路命就對了啦所以我們才今天會要來處理這個事情"},{"start":4600.643,"end":4618.527,"text":"那剛剛市長講的數據請市長要再明確講清楚啦齁那個數據跳來跳過去現在到目前為止逃跑萬是八萬五千多可能快到十萬了啦應該是這麼講齁那實際上實際上我們引進的外籍家庭康護工應該是22萬啦"},{"start":4620.928,"end":4634.214,"text":"對不對但實際上有真正的在每一個僱主家庭有實際上在執行外籍給看護的是18萬多啦等於跑了2萬快到3萬左右啦應該是這麼講嘛對不對他這個2萬到3萬為什麼他要跑"},{"start":4639.961,"end":4666.114,"text":"為什麼他要跑?這個公部門要跟我們委員說明清楚嘛他跑的狀況、樣態是什麼?是因為剛才陳柏林所委員還有董委員所講的因為他一到這個僱主的家庭看到這個掛上市委然後這真的他原本想像的他進來他一到我們引進來他是經過一定程度的這樣的訓練訓練完之後他才到這個僱主家庭"},{"start":4669.395,"end":4688.43,"text":"不過他一到這個僱主家民看到的時候他嚇呆了他覺得他沒辦法去申問然後他可能就跟僱主的家屬開始在討論他是不是可以轉換啊如果不給他轉換可能就有一些狀況會發生啊如果可以自由的去自由的選擇情況下他去轉換了可能就不會跑但是"},{"start":4691.572,"end":4693.094,"text":"議員在這三個沒有辦法去溝通他可能就跑了這兩至三萬的淘寶是不是我們樣態是佔比是多少嘛這我想應該要讓我們所有的委員了解清楚嘛這是其一嘛"},{"start":4707.426,"end":4729.234,"text":"那第二個我那天特別強調說你怎麼去做到優先這個有困難你從實際上外籍看護進到這個僱主家庭的情況之下你要去做到所謂的優先就已經有困難了你很難去限制所有的外籍家庭看護工跟僱主的這樣的互動還是他們協商得到最後的這樣的一個結論的狀況"},{"start":4732.062,"end":4755.639,"text":"你政府很難去介入這其一那其二我們所謂的優先現在就叫優先為什麼叫優先因為你必須要有巴斯量表你巴斯量表是護表你的前面叫做症狀及斯文的診斷證明嘛所以這個就是優先嘛這一塊就叫優先嘛那你現在要把這個區這個不是只有簡單的把巴斯量表取消嘛你現在是不是要把這個證明書一併都取消掉如果是你就講清楚喔"},{"start":4759.881,"end":4776.976,"text":"所以那天才特別提到說今天如果單純的去講說把巴氏量表免評但是他的前提還有在這個診斷證明是不是一併要取消啊如果不是只有單純把巴氏量表把這個護表撩掉那你還是必須要有症狀及私人的診斷證明啊"},{"start":4779.867,"end":4790.098,"text":"我們不能讓外界知道說我們今天委員會已經處理了我們已經幫各位把80歲的巴士量表拿掉了但是他還有一個診斷證明他還是存在的"},{"start":4791.483,"end":4812.378,"text":"這是第二件事情喔 第二件事情第三件事情是這樣因為剛剛林委員一直提到我相信昭緯跟委員應該都非常清楚這個供給跟需求落差值太大了啦落差值太大了在這個情況之下國民黨委員也有提到70到79歲的這一塊就是癌症啊第幾期的要不要放"},{"start":4813.138,"end":4830.715,"text":"我覺得要放啊,怎麼不放?他就得癌症了,他很難過了,家裡的外國人很辛苦,為什麼不放?但是如果我們今天就是一個界限,我們今天先處理80歲以上,那我們何其對這70、79歲人的公平在什麼地方?"},{"start":4832.408,"end":4842.551,"text":"這個是請大家來做思考,我們都希望幫這些需求者做到辨明不要這麼樣的煩雜,也不要去到醫院我現在有很多家屬想請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請"},{"start":4860.927,"end":4869.814,"text":"所以,所以這個原因去到這麼多,但是大家就是做龍頭說,啊你就八十的醫生,啊你就不要跟我們裝八十兩票,啊我們就是有資金,啊你就給我們請就好了。社會醫療就是說這麼簡單,但是他不知道這不是這麼簡單,啊我們大家就是這麼走,啊一個人這麼走醫療就對了齁。"},{"start":4880.262,"end":4880.682,"text":"接下來請陳毅委員"},{"start":4909.112,"end":4923.869,"text":"呃我我想講一個一般正常人的一個就是習慣跟傾向就是說如果嗯通常大家假如這個薪水是一樣的時候大部分的人"},{"start":4924.409,"end":4934.432,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件中的負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔和負擔"},{"start":4943.315,"end":4963.764,"text":"但是不能自由轉換的前提之下他就會跑啊所以這個問題其實是很嚴重的因為我們不能否認現今這個實務上在現在社會確實是有這種專業的這個非法媒介那他們呢還有這個"},{"start":4965.444,"end":4993.69,"text":"合法的安置單位在協助指導專業非法的逃逸這個現象是有的我們不能去忽略他也不能去否認他我們要去面對他們所以很可憐的我這是我的朋友親身的經驗他媽媽是重症患者可是呢不管是這個外籍或本籍的這個看護工雇主很可憐都是要看他們的臉色那"},{"start":4995.131,"end":5014.776,"text":"那因為確實在照顧這些重症患者很辛苦那也確實發生就是說這個看護工然後就逃跑那結果僱主又要回頭都找不到的時候又回頭去找這些專業的非法媒介然後又找了一些逃逸的來訓練不足的來"},{"start":5015.516,"end":5032.783,"text":"然後這些人呢就是請到的這個看護工就品質越來越差所以我是具體建議這樣子因為這個我說這個整個制度的設計我們是不是還是回歸給這個勞動部跟這個衛福部一點時間去研擬這個相關的辦法"},{"start":5042.706,"end":5055.002,"text":"接下來請林月琴委員,然後林淑芬委員,蘇清泉委員我還是要再提醒,真的剛剛前面委員都有講也就是重振他們的需求,因為一直有"},{"start":5055.828,"end":5064.434,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":5077.341,"end":5092.731,"text":"有的是逃跑 有的事實上是合議的第二個我覺得還是要問的就是我上次就有提問說現行開放85歲以上輕度的那個障礙者聘僱的制度下就很多用老人名義去聘僱一個移工進來"},{"start":5093.996,"end":5109.395,"text":"公認家庭幫用以外或者是到民宿小吃店去從事工作那我們自己又沒有辦法掌握這個狀況那如果開放80歲的時候是不是加劇了這個狀況使得需要的人更是沒有辦法"},{"start":5109.995,"end":5129.95,"text":"但是移工反而他的權益又沒被保障到可能都要一起考量而不是單一的就是說那我現在80歲就像淑貞委員講的我覺得大家要做好人大家都可以做好人可是最後呢造成真正需要的人沒辦法做移工的權益又受到很大的影響因為他去小吃店"},{"start":5130.35,"end":5153.421,"text":"他可能是從早做到晚,因為我婆婆在聘用我們的那個看護工的之前這個看護工他就是在台中,他事實上是人家聘過他可是他是從早上做早吃那個小吃店做到晚上反而對他權益事實上反而是沒有保障的,這我們一併考量那今天政府又不能去抓說那到底像這樣子的狀態裡面到底有多少人是這樣"},{"start":5154.622,"end":5169.824,"text":"也沒去做查核那現在又說要開放80歲那你有更多人去查核85歲以上之前就沒辦法做到那反而對移工的權益受到很大影響你也沒辦法做可是現在又要再去開放80歲以上的話是不是真的是加劇這種狀況以上"},{"start":5172.915,"end":5179.04,"text":"好請林淑芬委員好主席我覺得剛才劉建國委員也講得蠻清楚的就是說我們不可能全部都開放我告訴大家可以全部都開放但是要有設定一個條件我們統統都開放的條件是市場法則嘛你的供給面寬戶的供給面是大於需求面來是這個結構下勞動力結構是供給面大於需求"},{"start":5200.117,"end":5213.921,"text":"意思是說外勞大家都像30年前一樣每個人都求之不得要來台灣啊我告訴你通通都可以開放可是現在真的我們要回到這個全世界都在搶工的這個基礎上來看現實現在整個市場的供給就真的是供給小於需求窮不安所以呢"},{"start":5223.064,"end":5243.634,"text":"不要忘了當你供給小於需求我再講一次價格勞動力價格是要往上提高的啊所以現在我們基本上沒有基本勞基法的約束這個家庭看護工但是絕對不是用勞動部所說的一萬多元就可以拼顧了現在沒有兩三萬是留不住家庭看護工的"},{"start":5244.955,"end":5263.701,"text":"而我們的法規規定是不用的喔可是為什麼會這樣子因為這是一個自由市場的自然法則嘛那我們硬要違反自由市場的規則說你一定要先去參入重症你用違反自由市場的規定你給他這樣子做有兩個大問題第一個"},{"start":5267.421,"end":5274.925,"text":"第一個就是現在的勞動意識高漲包括外籍移工他們已經全面國對國的都在談了你不能夠禁止我們轉換僱主"},{"start":5280.529,"end":5298.335,"text":"就從這個勞動的自由權利來講你憑什麼禁止我轉換僱主所以我們對移工的管理政策事實上包括美國包括世界都在檢視台灣檢視全球有沒有對勞移工是平等原則的"},{"start":5299.295,"end":5311.225,"text":"而我們現在這個禁止轉換僱主的規定都正要接受挑戰都要改了有可能都會被衝擊到了所以這個問題已經是大家覺得違反勞動人權了好那目前我們還沒有改所以不能夠轉換僱主嘛可是第二個問題就來了"},{"start":5319.272,"end":5344.067,"text":"啊他不能轉換雇主天天吵啊天天吵那你要不要合意讓他走或者是或者是你就就我不願意不願意他也逃跑所以在這種狀況裡面你會知道重症的家重症失能者的家庭他們多麼的可憐啊現在我們沒有為重症失能的家庭解決這部分的問題而我們現在在開一個門哦"},{"start":5348.169,"end":5360.574,"text":"我們如果這樣草率沒有想到後遺症就讓他這樣子不是用需求劉建國委員講的七十幾歲如果我是一個癌症然後我沒有家人可以看護我難道我不能夠請一個外籍看護嗎所以我們要用需求面來設定"},{"start":5367.338,"end":5380.446,"text":"來開放而不是用年齡來開放否則的話你直接用年齡開放等於是對重症失能的家庭落井下石沒有跟他們解決問題你還要牽手讓他們的問題越嚴重這個是大問題再來我要跟你講說其實自由市場勞動力的自由市場裡面很簡單的因為我父親中風的時候外籍看護回家一個月那一個月請問你要找誰來顧啊"},{"start":5397.156,"end":5426.096,"text":"當時法律還沒有改然後呢我就請我們的左鄰右舍親朋好友然後也都請大家去幫忙我可不可以這一個月請一個臨時看護人力你朝九晚五就好了到我們家裡來不用做任何家務朝九晚五然後呢你只要負責我父親的私能上的飲食洗澡然後讓他起來坐著然後推他出去一下"},{"start":5426.736,"end":5450.733,"text":"我告訴你我開薪水四萬那個是十幾年前四萬的薪水沒有一個人要他說在四萬五要不要也沒有人要我的意思是說現在包括台灣人都一樣啊你如果到你家庭裡面到私領域裡面我感覺我就矮你一等以外大家到工廠裡面是第一優先選擇啊我工廠的薪水比較少但"},{"start":5451.974,"end":5455.578,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件, 其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":5472.355,"end":5483.199,"text":"那我要跟大家講現在你以為外籍移工我們還想外籍勞動力是要不能替代的不再請台灣人討論外籍移工從一開始開放他就是補充就是做台灣人不愛做的但是走到今天三十年連外籍移工都不願意做了"},{"start":5493.223,"end":5498.607,"text":"所以你再這樣子下去,即便他們進來,他們願意做,他們真的是我們的菩薩和天使了。所以在這種狀況裡面,你開放了一個沒必要請外籍移工,他一定第一優先。我們不要把大家都當成聖人,大家都是一個菩薩,他也是一個人。"},{"start":5518.183,"end":5542.205,"text":"他也想要挑工,如果可以自由轉換僱主,他也要挑工所以外籍移工也不是30年前外籍移工的爸爸媽媽那一代的移工了現在年輕的外籍移工長大的環境跟他爸爸媽媽這樣子受盡所有的辛苦然後含辛的如苦為了養孩子然後到台灣來"},{"start":5543.206,"end":5548.369,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":5559.116,"end":5573.102,"text":"所以我們要很務實的要接地氣的我們就好好的來談最負責任的來談就是我們接住真正有需要而我們沒有看到的務實的來談主席什麼人是我們應該大家歡迎起來這個問題要再開放給他不要用巴士量表給他可以有人照顧因為比如說不婚的人越來越多了他不婚"},{"start":5582.225,"end":5587.309,"text":"可是他一生病就沒有人看護了,到什麼等級我們就應該要給人家,這個要接起來,這樣講比較實際,不能說八十歲就開放,這種人立法是沒有福,很厲害啦但是大家硬要過我還是沒辦法,但是要先說得好,因為這件事後遺症要先說得好,再來你要先開放以前要處理開放要先改過重症失能家庭,現在遇到的問題啦"},{"start":5608.343,"end":5617.325,"text":"現在遇到的問題不論衛福部、不論是勞動部也都沒有接觸他們。已經開放有在用外籍康復的,引導發生的問題,每天搖把柵、逃跑,都沒人要顧。這個問題我們沒有優先立法,還是優先修法說看要怎麼解決。這個問題比現在馬上開放80個合格、合手的外籍康復,更加問題更加嚴重啦。好啊,我們就好好談、慢慢談。先蘇星全委員。"},{"start":5637.971,"end":5645.675,"text":"今天你講的五題好像都失焦了今天你說的是85個醫生都不要開巴士練表不要開我告訴做醫生的人現在你如果去台北你去長庚你去看塞一隻輪椅子裡要找劉建國醫師劉建國醫師擺起來做一招現在看輪子沒人要看沒人要給你寫是什麼因為寫一張巴士練表有積極的"},{"start":5665.377,"end":5675.232,"text":"過去有什麼不肖的醫生我做過醫修展覽的Listing做過很多Listing我給你們報告正常的醫生看到這個壓力都很大"},{"start":5677.7,"end":5704.127,"text":"愈笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。愈不笑愈內心愈不敢給你開。�"},{"start":5706.127,"end":5710.589,"text":"所以我們今天要講的是說80位醫生要開巴士兩票嗎?不要讓醫師來寫,不要讓我們病病的醫生,若要開巴士兩票不要寫,你要叫醫生開診斷書,開診斷書要比較大喔。那你要用其他的管道來評估,多元的評估,這兩三是那個就領導總部的事情了嘛。"},{"start":5732.298,"end":5744.789,"text":"我今天要說的就是八十歲以上要開巴士輛票,如果我要關,我就要關,不要開。七十歲到七十九歲有癌症二期的,可能開到診斷室給他可以啦。如果要叫我開巴士輛票評估,我也很不想開。開的真是理甘問意感的人,大家就要害怕死。"},{"start":5752.555,"end":5753.976,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":5774.306,"end":5778.512,"text":"那選前三個候選人都說要放寬要補用什麼的選後當然問題一大堆那至於說後面那些逃跑的啦要拖得多心碎的啦那是另外另外一個意思所以"},{"start":5791.394,"end":5807.984,"text":"大家請他講 像我們現在的外籍看護 衛生部外籍看護都是從哪裡來比較多 也是從菲律賓來的 從印尼來的還有對 沒有啊 我們來英國非常少啊 我們那個遠洋培養的那些百分之百都是印尼來的"},{"start":5809.781,"end":5826.73,"text":"所以我們的來源、來源國也少所以才會開放說要給印度的啦、給緬甸的多元、多元的國家來所以這個後邊這個配套真不用從我們雇主那也是你們勞動部敢開放的三個月就可以從我們雇主甚至兩個月就可以從我們雇主"},{"start":5827.19,"end":5829.291,"text":"接下來是劉建國 劉建國委員發言完之後我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":5856.969,"end":5858.337,"text":"現在有提供的只有19萬,換句話說現在"},{"start":5861.828,"end":5888.342,"text":"那位委員請坐那裡,他講的就是一個現狀,屬於醫生開這巴士輪表開始也有很多問題,這我剛才也已經這樣說了,所以這比年輕人更清楚、更感同身受啦齁。但是齁,但是我們要對醫生開巴士輪表及早期來處理這80位醫生,要把巴士輪表拿掉。我就說,你把巴士輪表拿掉,它是附件,它會透過一個疾病及私能的診斷證明,這要拿掉嗎?"},{"start":5891.125,"end":5906.51,"text":"這你告訴我好嗎?你告訴我清楚。所以不是單純把八十兩票提掉,要讓議員去扁平,八十二以上都不能去承擔。剛才這個如果再跌下去,你同樣是有這個問題。同樣是要再回到議員,要去看他的記錄,要去看他設定的狀況,要去開除他的政端證明書。這是定數嘛,這個定數要照嗎?還是連這個都要提掉?這你要告訴我清楚。"},{"start":5918.906,"end":5941.581,"text":"這第一點喔 這第一點第一點我想要提醒大家我是說 衛福部你要把這個表格給所有的委員一張啦齁我給大家報告齁我們講需求嘛我們現在講需求我們現在齁我們台灣現在沒有出席就是拚過這個這個家庭這個看路公啦齁有三年啦我給大家報告第一年81年到82年基高照顧服務一間照顧服務 核家庭託顧服務連續六個以上的"},{"start":5950.143,"end":5977.092,"text":"二十四萬兩千四百六十三人但是隨從現在有扯到的喔有扯到這裡五百八百五十二啦佔比就是二十趴左右啦,要去一趴啦。第二類失智症CDRI一分以上啦需求者有二十四萬七百零二人但實際上有聘外籍看護公司"},{"start":5978.597,"end":6007.347,"text":"8萬7千多,佔比是36多。你如果抽到這張就知道了。再來就是第三條。第三條就是有專用特定身心障礙項目1到14項。這總共有多少?我簡單講一下。平衡肌群的障礙這個重度,智能障礙重度,指紋障礙重度,失智症輕症,自閉症重度,染色體異常重度,還有先天代謝,精神病,肢體障礙,罕見疾病,"},{"start":6008.067,"end":6021.931,"text":"重要器官失去功能呼吸器官重度重要器官失去功能吞嚥機能重度這總共需求是多少?需求是要達到658222228人目前有聘到外籍康復工人數是19913人對不對?對不對?占比是29%"},{"start":6038.208,"end":6054.621,"text":"你把第一類、第二類、第三類加起來總統統目前在我們臺灣裡面這三類需要聘外籍看護工的先不談長照2.0就簡單講說他有需要提出申請要申請外籍看護工的總共多少是不是合計就是658228加入數要15萬多少"},{"start":6064.517,"end":6088.014,"text":"啊,剛才司長一直在說,我們現在台灣有遷就外籍看護工實際在職業的是總共照理講是應該將近20萬啦但是實際上是18萬多而已啦剩下3到4萬是跑掉了啦啊,我才會講說3到4萬為什麼跑掉你們要去盤查他的樣態有幾項啊然後這18萬還在家庭持續在做看護工的"},{"start":6094.744,"end":6101.366,"text":"他跟僱主合意的有轉換的比例有多高?轉換的次數的比例又有多少?不過我告訴你這個手機要拿出來給大家參考啦齁所以第一件我剛才說八十兩票八十五他想要拿掉不是要擋但是他那個疾病及思論轉換信息書要不要一併拿掉還是保留?這個要講清楚"},{"start":6120.246,"end":6134.15,"text":"阿第二個剛剛一直講供給跟需求面我們現在我們現在的需求就這麼大就是65萬多我們的供給是不到20萬捏雖然有超過22萬但是就跑了3到4萬吶等於說我們給這一些政府目前設定開放優先的我們都已經不足到多少如果以22萬去除啦去除以65萬8啦"},{"start":6149.38,"end":6162.028,"text":"我們是不足三分之二捏現在就已經不足三分之二的外籍家庭看護工來幫助我們這些家庭幫助我們這些需要被照顧的對象了就等於欠四十幾萬捏啊你如果八十位八十個金額我們現在要怎麼處理"},{"start":6170.254,"end":6174.16,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會計劃,其中一項委員會計劃,其中一項委員會計劃,"},{"start":6186.498,"end":6211.686,"text":"我們大家都是好意正面嘛我們才可以精準去做這樣判斷所以我才一直強調說我們大家都是願意幫人民來把這事情處理得更便民更需求者可以得到這樣的一個支持但是我們不要因為沒有對這些事項的掌握沒有盤整清楚反而造成真正"},{"start":6212.611,"end":6227.045,"text":"政府原本優先需要聘僱的外庭監護工反而去聘不到這些進來支持,這樣反而我們自己會傷到啦。我是跟各位用這樣比較清楚做說明。謝謝。好,謝謝。我們先休息十分鐘。"},{"start":6261.664,"end":6265.606,"text":"。"},{"start":6849.397,"end":6854.14,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那我們是不是先請那個勞動部跟衛福部針對剛剛又有一輪委員的發言提出來的相關的問題來請那個說明好不好來 我們先請勞動部好了 來"},{"start":6868.031,"end":6883.511,"text":"跟委員報告齁首先就是說現在就是對於用年齡來開放還是以需求我們是覺得說如果以需求來開放因為基本上不管是不是80或未滿80其實只要有需求其實就可以滿足"},{"start":6884.312,"end":6909.991,"text":"那現在外界是比較關心的就是說我們去年10月所開放那三類多元免貧要不要進一步擴大那這部分確實因為有一些反應意見進來我們覺得這個有一些可以考論的一個空間而且應該朝向盡量滿足各方的需求所以基本上如果能夠這樣來做的話其實未來以80歲以上其實大部分還是可以照顧到協助我想這個部分是第一個就是對整個未來的一個多元免貧的開放的對象"},{"start":6911.972,"end":6927.681,"text":"那第二個就是剛剛大概委員關心就是說可能有些像可能還不到這種所謂聘僱的條件下那是不是還有另外的一個服務所以上次我們在委員會跟委員報告其實我們已經同步在發展另外一個服務模式就是說用那個多元陪伴照顧因為這個"},{"start":6928.701,"end":6956.778,"text":"未來對於剛剛有委員提到因為有一些臨時性需求他可能一些過程當中可能需要一些短期的那未來我們發展那個多元陪伴照顧這個方式就可以滿足因為這裡面就有很多彈性的機制可以來協助那第三個剛剛有委員提到就是說整個移工未來在一個管理的制度上也確實就是說有些因為他移工跟僱主因為因為在很多情況下因為必須要轉換僱主可能那個空窗期"},{"start":6957.378,"end":6986.085,"text":"造成原僱主可能會造成一些不便那這個制度面這個部分其實我們目前依照我們目前的法律授權我們訂的一個資格標準其實我們也在同步在簡化未來可能就是說怎麼樣讓這個整個的必要的一個時效上不要造成這個控訴上的影響這個部分是在行政的作為程序上其實我們會同步來檢查那最後就是剛剛委員有提到就是說對這個失聯原因跟這個照顧之間的關聯性那這個部分我們過去其實有做一些調查"},{"start":6987.205,"end":7011.838,"text":"大概就是在失聯原因裡面因為僱主照顧上的一些影響的問題所產生而失聯大概佔比大概百分之二十到三十這個確實是有發生百分之三十有的時候所以這個可能因為工作可能沒辦法去試任那因為沒辦法順利轉換僱主他可能就產生失聯那這個失聯原因這個有一些一定的比率那如果說我們也擔心就是說如果一旦這樣的一個"},{"start":7012.598,"end":7027.642,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其全面性尤其是因為有一些牙健康的問題可能這個問題又會產生之間彼此的一些重症的他可能就要往那邊跑那可能又造成這個因素我想這個部分我們會進一步來做一個分析來跟我們報告好這個剛剛署長所報告的我覺得當中有點矛盾第一個你提到說你們開放多元的"},{"start":7041.831,"end":7061.208,"text":"認證方式之後呢就會80歲以上多數也都可以進來這樣子那這個好像就沒有解決到剛剛有很多民進黨的委員在提到的說我們現在他們是擔心說放太大放太大之後呢就會衝擊到現在的重症對那這個問題不是一樣存在嗎"},{"start":7066.674,"end":7082.54,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我們現在就剛剛委員提到,我們現在是說如果在多年年齡﹖ 所以你說多數80歲以上也會符合標準,也可以進來啊?對,所以他到﹖ 那這樣的邏輯跟剛剛一直在講說,前面如果現在已經不夠了,如果再開放,再開放就是會衝擊到重症,那那個邏輯不是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":7088.53,"end":7105.192,"text":"那如果那個邏輯是成立的話那就不應該再開放啦就是以現行我們就是我們就是需求都沒有辦法滿足啦那所以你再放寬你再放寬放多一點人進來那現在外籍義工都不夠用所以坦白講我不知道現在真正的問題到底在哪裡"},{"start":7106.505,"end":7119.139,"text":"現在真的問題在於如果剛剛署長回答這套邏輯成立的話透過你們的多元方式80歲以上多數也滿足那一樣是增加需求一樣是增加量那剛剛很多民進黨委員一直在提的說你增加量之後你會衝擊現在的重症"},{"start":7122.828,"end":7142.186,"text":"我不知道真正的問題到底發生在哪裡?我們到底現在真正遇到的問題在哪裡?不能再放寬,還是說放寬的標準不能太寬鬆?因為如果你透過不斷的多元這一些行政程序,最後達到的一樣是讓很多80歲以上有需求的人,他們一樣可以健懷。"},{"start":7143.107,"end":7157.775,"text":"那你剛剛一再﹑很多委員在提的說啊你放那麼多人進來之後你現在就是會衝擊到現在照顧重症的那重症的沒人要走就會你那一些多元進來的一定是比重症還要輕啊你才會多元認證啊免那些程序啊啊現在問題倒在這裡你們這樣多元的就可以開放80歲以上的就不行"},{"start":7167.984,"end":7196.714,"text":"我不懂耶來部長你說就真正問題到底在哪裡我想我們委員會是要探討問題就是我們是要解決問題探討問題那如果剛剛有多位委員提到說我現在如果再開放一些輕症的進來我會衝擊到我現在重症的照顧就大家就會一直轉換僱主那如果這個邏輯成立你這個多元的也會被打垮你這個多元的不是重症的都不需要你多元啦你現在多元的就是有些還沒有達到門檻"},{"start":7197.814,"end":7209.691,"text":"免一些行政程序再讓他進來的嗎所以我覺得大家要把問題談清楚真的不要就是說開放然後就一定會衝擊什麼如果這個是成立了你這套多元是被打垮了你還是開放了不是嗎"},{"start":7212.894,"end":7230.496,"text":"你還是簡正變明你還是開放一些不是原來重症的進來啊所以我們的問題到底是在哪裡我就真的要談清楚我先補充一句話就好了這個應該這麼講齁我們把這個重症這一張表格先收起來我們先不談重症我們談80歲以上就好"},{"start":7231.787,"end":7239.654,"text":"財務部給我們的資料應該大家都有啦111年應該是臺灣的80歲以上的長者應該有八十幾萬嘛對不對那現在已經113了已經91萬了是111年嗎喔112年已經91萬嘛好那91萬我們掌握的數據有多少"},{"start":7255.868,"end":7263.234,"text":"要所謂真正需要外籍看護工來照顧的比例是多少我們現在有進來我們長照體系的大概38萬那91萬扣掉38萬"},{"start":7274.122,"end":7298.764,"text":"還有五十三萬嘛 對不對 那我們現在把這一個八十兩百拿掉 免評我剛剛特別提到說要不要連那個那個叫什麼疾病及失能証明書一併都拿掉就變成說他只要滿八十歲他只要滿八十歲他就可以申請外籍看護工囉好 那這個部分會不會就已經會造成很大的衝擊啊"},{"start":7300.629,"end":7309.094,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7325.023,"end":7351.413,"text":"那就簡單講我們還需求要有53萬那53萬當然不會全部的53萬的長輩還是他的家庭都一定要提出申請或許他的家庭支持比較OK他的成員比較多他根本就不需要騙外勞對不對好但是53萬可能可能不會提出申請的比例有多高啊可能會提出申請的比例又佔比又說多少"},{"start":7352.493,"end":7381.232,"text":"這個有沒有去評估過啦我不曉得啦齁那如果我們以53萬去算就好了除以一半啦就還要再二十幾萬啊這二十幾萬多久的時間內我們勞動部可以去滿足這樣的一個需求有沒有一個時程當開放之後嘛我們要遇到了嘛我們要遇到這些80歲以上的長輩他的需求你們什麼時候可以應付到啊不用到53萬就一半就好了啦"},{"start":7384.597,"end":7400.141,"text":"跟主席還有各位委員報告一下應該是這麼講就是剛剛延續剛剛建國委員講的有53萬是非重症有需求的嘛那理論上這一群人也可以使用到我們的多元認定這一個部分嘛"},{"start":7400.785,"end":7421.252,"text":"那我們多元認定裡面其實大概其實署長剛才話講得快了不可能80歲以上都因為這個多元認定然後就多數滿足理論上應該是說那個多元認定裡面有一項是最寬鬆的那個就是所謂輕度失智症的認定這一項是大概是最容易那麼這樣的人口"},{"start":7422.572,"end":7450.333,"text":"大概是七萬五千七百四十四人如果我們照衛福部的估算那目前我們因為這樣子因為這樣的放寬我們聘僱外刊的人數就是二萬五千八百七十人所以理論上也許可以推估潛在的人口可能是七萬五這個數字啦你懂我意思嗎五十三萬裡面會因為我們多元認定而有資格再申請"},{"start":7451.314,"end":7462.32,"text":"嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿嘿"},{"start":7481.015,"end":7495.838,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件,其中一項是提案,建議我們要放寬,一個就是說,申請過的就不要再平了,這個不是再增加的,這個就是既有的。」"},{"start":7496.338,"end":7523.995,"text":"對啊 那沒有 那無助於就是有需求另外一個我們也覺得委員提案裡面有一項還蠻 我們覺得還蠻OK的就是說就我們 顏昭偉您講的授權我們兩部會再做認定啦有個 就還是要有個把關啦可是要有一些彈性可以再放這樣子可是要我們兩部會再認定這樣子我們大概最多能做的是做到這樣了對 是"},{"start":7527.495,"end":7553.058,"text":"所以你是要修正剛剛署長的報告應該沒有說修正啦就是我現在講的是我們跟就是也有提案嘛現在是不是有修正動議在在有送上去這樣子第二個新的修正動議對就是說我們就三項多元認定以外再多增加再多我們也許我們可以做的是再多增加"},{"start":7554.562,"end":7562.535,"text":"對我們支持黃秀芳委員的修正動議就是一年內曾經中央主管機關許可聘僱以後"},{"start":7564.818,"end":7593.353,"text":"許可聘僱外國人從事第一項第九款的家庭看護工作就是申請過的啦就不用再不用再評了啦你只要請一次就好了這樣好這叫一個第四款這樣啊第五款就是我我那個召委您的提案裡面的這個一個一個文字其他經第五款其他經專用主管機關會商專用目的事業主管機關認定之特殊情況事項這樣參佐您的文字"},{"start":7596.257,"end":7602.262,"text":"但其實以你這一個方案,你剛剛講嘛,如果是7萬人跟潛在的可能高達53萬的需求,事實上你滿足的可能只有這樣是多少?"},{"start":7622.771,"end":7640.277,"text":"是幾趴而已啊?大概是十幾趴,對不對?好,我想這個部分就是大家充分的交換意見,但是因為大家是從不同的角度,從使用者跟照顧者的面向來講,他們這個"},{"start":7642.955,"end":7670.38,"text":"希望改革的呼聲是很大的所以才會當時會是總統級的政見我想列為總統級的政見就代表說這個是三黨的我想連賴總統他自己都說巴士料到了應該要修改的時候了那所以這件事情我覺得我們也必須尊重很廣大的這一些民意他們的需求那當然主管機關會有屬於主管機關自己的修正動議跟看法"},{"start":7671.325,"end":7698.461,"text":"那我具體建議兩個做法一個就是我們下次繼續再審一個就是兩岸併城把修正動議跟委員的這一個就一起送出委員會那尊重大家就是要再審一次還是就是兩岸併城就是修正動議就是直接送出去這樣子就是也尊重委員提案也尊重主管機關的修正動議"},{"start":7699.724,"end":7718.377,"text":"那之後就是看最後民意大家的決定其實這件事情沒有絕對的對跟錯啦就是選擇的問題就是選擇的問題真的就是這樣子可不可以下次再審齁因為我覺得很多東西尤其我們自己在實務面碰到因為很多"},{"start":7718.956,"end":7719.217,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具"},{"start":7731.169,"end":7733.15,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件"},{"start":7760.137,"end":7767.502,"text":"造就了一個大學生然後呢讓他進入到要進入到市場去發展自己的時候被家庭綁架回去"},{"start":7767.964,"end":7796.682,"text":"我覺得這都要去考慮還有一個勞工就是移工到底有沒有被好好運用還是像我剛剛講的運用在不該他做的工作上可是我們今天看這些很多數據甚至都是不夠的啊那我覺得今天如果說今天印度的移工如果來個20萬、30萬那當然我們今天都不用去談這個問題不是嘛那在這樣狀況底下在挑工的狀態底下那"},{"start":7797.302,"end":7798.863,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件"},{"start":7825.305,"end":7842.371,"text":"劉建國委員主席剛剛講得很好,那我現在是不是也這邊再做一個建議,因為部市有提出修正動議嘛,那剛剛部長有提到應該在第五款就是說其他經中央主管機關、會商中央目的事業總機關認定之情況特殊事項,這個範圍"},{"start":7845.773,"end":7864.447,"text":"這個範圍可能要在立法說明裡面寫清楚啦對 特殊嘛 什麼叫特殊嘛因為我們有國民黨委員會特別提到就是癌友的部分癌友的部分要不要再去設限所謂70到79歲所以他如果已經是二期、四期的不管他是幾歲一直是嚴重的啊"},{"start":7866.088,"end":7881.779,"text":"也不應該去設定那個年紀啦坦白講是這樣所以你這個要不要把它放在你的立法所裡面我們把它盤整清楚一點那我剛剛還要特別再提到一段就是說這個80歲台灣的80歲的長者已經來到91萬這其實是一個很龐大的一個人數啦"},{"start":7889.063,"end":7902.599,"text":"那你這些希望去把他照顧到透過外籍空空去照顧到更好的一個樣態他的對象80歲以上的對象他一定還是有區分的"},{"start":7904.17,"end":7923.111,"text":"但是你又不用去否認今天社會的輿論然後包含相關的人士有特別提到說發射量保必須要做一個檢討了這個你們也必須要去面對但是有一個重點我今天講說我們不用去講到排擠到這些重症的就是你們的一二三類齁"},{"start":7923.932,"end":7947.229,"text":"這些已經目前為止是真正的需求是65萬多但是實際上有在從事這個外籍交工來做支持的才19萬多不是不到不到三分之一喔這邊你就還欠缺三分之二就等欠40多萬那如果再回歸到80歲以上的有已經有騙的扣掉沒有騙的啊他可能有狀況他可能是"},{"start":7948.63,"end":7970.729,"text":"他的家庭成員是希望說防老啦希望我聘一個可以來防治他的長輩跌倒我聘一個來可以陪伴他的長輩我聘一個可以來跟他的長輩來做相關的一些互動預防他的快速老化等等這個也都不為過"},{"start":7972.03,"end":7997.457,"text":"這個都不為過。我想社會的需求是在這個地方。最後再回歸到我剛剛特別講的蘇清瑜委員就是醫師他很清楚嘛。所以我剛剛才講說你今天不是跟外界講我們單純把巴斯量表拿掉就通通沒事了。你那個疾病及身體診斷證明書是不是一併還要留著。很多國民黨的委員很多委員提到是這個醫療專業評估要把它取消掉。"},{"start":8000.11,"end":8022.304,"text":"這個可以這樣取消掉嗎?這個你們要講清楚啊。所以應該沒有所謂的在這個八十歲這個範疇裡面了啦。因為我們是考量是全部的面向,真正的需求的,真正的八十歲以上的需求,真正的這些一二三類等級的需要騙到這個外籍高中的對象,我們到現在能"},{"start":8023.044,"end":8032.375,"text":"能怎樣去做相關的滿足?你們要怎麼去明定這些優先順序?我想這個都是必須要很慎重的來處理啦,好不好?以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。那還有?主任機關還有補充說明的嗎?還有托兒園?"},{"start":8045.049,"end":8068.01,"text":"好 謝謝主席那剛剛我們建國委員有講其實這個大家剛剛討論的重點其實可能巴士量表只是大家一個統稱其實重點後面有一個什麼診斷書失能的證明其實大家針對這80歲以上其實就不是說只有巴士量表就是因為後面有一個就是我"},{"start":8068.51,"end":8096.083,"text":"免經醫療機構之專業評估其實就是八十歲以上然後這些什麼診斷失能八十兩秒這部分都是拿掉然後就是單就就是八十歲以上就是開放讓他去申請這個外籍看護能夠照顧這些長者希望就是在他健康的時候來照顧他避免而且我們也講有些八十歲以上長者當然"},{"start":8097.023,"end":8125.361,"text":"畢竟容易跌倒或者有一些老人病就是希望在沒有達到我們現今醫療評估達到巴氏量表的標準就能夠讓他去照顧他不應該是讓他跌倒失能之後或者致殘之後才達到這個巴氏量表標準那我們講的整體巴氏量表當然就是包含整體醫療專業機構這個整體的評估所以就是整個要去把它取消掉"},{"start":8126.041,"end":8145.108,"text":"就是說80歲以上我們就符合他申請的標準那剛剛也聽了那麼多其實我覺得像很多符合標準的你看他也沒有去申請我覺得這是我們其他一個制度面的問題不應該說因為現在這個問題所以我們就不能再開放我覺得那個是另外一個層面的問題要去解決那個問題並不是說我這邊已經有60幾萬我現在才只有多少人"},{"start":8155.752,"end":8170.758,"text":"那我覺得那是另外一個問題要去解決不應該把這個問題去混為一談應該勞動部針對是不是這些有需求面這麼多為什麼他們有些要申請找不到人是不是這些問題要去解決"},{"start":8171.658,"end":8187.705,"text":"也不能說因為這個問題導致我們其他像有這些需求的就不能再去做開放那剛剛我像我們月勤委員有講你看很多的年輕人因為這個大學畢業以後他變成因為家庭這樣子的問題我們好不容易"},{"start":8188.325,"end":8194.308,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件"},{"start":8212.697,"end":8242.017,"text":"老公外籍移工為什麽那邊找不到人那是應該分開去做處理那很多的問題應該是分開處理不能說因為你那邊的問題沒有辦法解決然後針對我們這邊有需求所以我們就不能這樣去做那我們這邊要去做當然有我們看得到問題而且我們這八十歲在以上開放我相信就找得到這些人啊但是你那些沒有辦法解決問題市勞動部應該要針對那個部分去深切去做檢討去解決那部分的問題"},{"start":8244.817,"end":8246.178,"text":"黃秋芳委員主席"},{"start":8270.606,"end":8271.967,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8289.563,"end":8316.926,"text":"人數做一個統計讓這個不要變成說我們這樣子以年紀來開放之後那排擠到一些重症的那剛剛淑芬委員也有特別提到其實如果說以80歲以上就可以申請那可能有的80歲以上的這個阿公阿嬤其實他的這個整個身體狀況都還非常的好真的都非常的好"},{"start":8317.446,"end":8343.767,"text":"那如果都可以全部開放的話那我擔心真的確實會排擠到一些重症需要被照顧的人那因為我們在基層確實有碰到這樣的問題就是家庭看護工他希望照顧比較好照顧的這個患者那比較好照顧的一方面他可能會比較輕鬆那如果說比較不好照顧的他也會要求"},{"start":8344.387,"end":8356.633,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件 及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一項委員會及其中一�"},{"start":8373.12,"end":8392.175,"text":"好 我想謝謝今天有多位委員的發言我剛剛強調過這個議題其實你從不同的面向就是都有道理從行政機關管理的角度當然不希望再大幅的開放但從民眾需求的角度也聽到非常多的聲音他們是想要申請"},{"start":8395.751,"end":8407.039,"text":"但是呢就是現在的巴士量表讓他疲於奔命喔就是年紀那麼大了還要去跑醫院然後這當中還會產生爭議喔所以我覺得從不同的角度都有他修法的理由跟道理那這個關於勞動部跟衛福部還需要補充的資料就請"},{"start":8417.466,"end":8417.766,"text":"議案繼續往前走"},{"start":8426.778,"end":8440.004,"text":"所以該補充的資料請這個兩個單位務必充分提供像你們今天明明有這份資料怎麼沒有事先提供給大家就只有劉建國委員有我覺得這是不對的召委都沒有那怎麼可以對其他委員對召委這麼不公平手上有的資料應該一到的時候就發給每一位委員這個我要嚴正的提出糾正下一次再有這樣的情況"},{"start":8455.888,"end":8468.055,"text":"那就不客氣了不可以這樣子就是所有的資料都是公開透明然後應該要提供就是每一個委員都要有好不好這是誰提供的哪一個部門"},{"start":8469.679,"end":8470.499,"text":"委員會裡面每個委員委員會裡面每個委員"},{"start":8495.589,"end":8522.356,"text":"就是需要的資料都是一樣的就是請要提供的時候一併提供好謝謝好那這一案我們就先保留我們下次再繼續處理那關於就業服務法部分條文修正草案令則其繼續審查好那接下來我們進行第二案勞基法的修正"},{"start":8535.143,"end":8541.83,"text":"有關勞基法第五十條條文修正草案總共有四案。現在請委員表示意見。"},{"start":8562.682,"end":8586.096,"text":"那委員還沒表示意見請主管機關先表示意見好了。來。報告召委還有我們各位委員那有關這次委員提的50條的修正案有4個案子那大概做一個做一個綜合性的一個回應那首先的話是延長產價到12週那現行的產價是8週的規定"},{"start":8589.998,"end":8605.268,"text":"公資由僱主照給。在8週的產假裡面,僱主不可以要求勞工出勤。即使勞工想要早一點回來上班,他也是禁止的。所以是勞資雙方都不可以在這個產假的8週出勤。"},{"start":8605.834,"end":8626.765,"text":"那這次要延長到12週因為的規定的話大概原則上是以原來的8週調到12週因此他會出現第一個是增加的4週工資也是由僱主照給第二個增加的4週也同樣的這個勞工和僱主雙方都被限制在那段期間是不可以勞工不可以出勤工作"},{"start":8627.304,"end":8649.22,"text":"那這個增加的話有一個部分的話是說小型企業的人力調度可能會增加一些需求那這個部分的話會有一些比較小型微型企業比較會有一些問題那另外的話就是因為是強制性的規定不能出勤所以勞工個人意願可能他想要提早回來的可能性也會被阻斷那那個時間是從8週再拉長的"},{"start":8652.093,"end":8675.247,"text":"再來的話就是四周產價的部分的話我們大概薪資的推估其實大概要接近如果僱主薪資成本大概接近29億這個部分的話對於僱主的部分來說尤其是小微型的企業如果他僱用的一位兩位的員工他可能在這個時間內增加四周相當要增加給付一個月的薪資"},{"start":8676.087,"end":8701.838,"text":"那對於這個勞資雙方相關的相處的部分的話也會有一些影響那包括可能會不會有潛在的明的暗的那大家可能會有一些沒有那個懷孕歧視的狀況會更難避免目前來講懷孕歧視還是有但是會更加重這個部分有誘發的可能性"},{"start":8702.558,"end":8721.577,"text":"那再來的話就是說萬委員也提到一個是第二胎產價工資要加成發給那這個部分的話是因為工資其實是勞工的工作的對價那在產價期間造給工資不扣薪水那這個部分的話是原來對勞工的保障"},{"start":8722.017,"end":8743.986,"text":"但是這個老公生第二胎和生第一胎這件事情跟他的工作其實是沒有關係的因為只因為生第二胎所以他的那個產價工資要再加成齁那雖然是即使由政府來補助但是跟那個工資的本質的情況是比較沒有關聯的那是建議是不是不要再做這樣的修正"},{"start":8745.325,"end":8763.084,"text":"那有關另外一個議題是有薪流產假的部分那性別平等工作法現在是有規定了懷孕未滿三個月的流產假那他這個規定是在性別平等工作法他的規定是兩個月"},{"start":8763.644,"end":8776.639,"text":"月以下的流產有五天的流產假兩個月以上未滿三個月的部分的流產假是七天那在勞基法是確實沒有規定勞基法只有規定三個月以上的流產有四週的產假"},{"start":8777.714,"end":8805.019,"text":"那這個部分的話在適用勞基法的行業他一樣要遵守這個5天和7天的產假給勞工那目前來講的話因為勞基法沒有也沒有說給新的規定那勞工現行的處理方式會是用普通商併假來請假我們勞工請假規則也有規定說如果勞工是因為這個流產的原因請這5天或7天的這個流產假的話要求僱主不可以去扣發他全勤"},{"start":8805.539,"end":8826.241,"text":"而不可以給他不利的待遇,那這個部分的話就是有參照這個性別平等工作法的意旨來做處理。如果要增訂這個一天和五天有薪流產假的話,那費用當然也會由在現在的委員的各個提案版本大概是由雇主負擔,還是會有小微型企業負擔的問題。"},{"start":8828.323,"end":8848.779,"text":"那再來的話就是說馬文君委員的這個版本有多一個是年資未滿6個月勞工的產價工資得按比例計給那這個規定是說如果一個勞工他如果原始的規定是勞工如果年資有超過6個月以上不管是逐月生產或者是3個月以上的流產的話"},{"start":8850.16,"end":8868.21,"text":"那他的那個產價不管是8週或4週的產價這個僱主是工資造給他是年到職以後年資6個月以上但是也許他到職之後2個月或3個月他就生產那這個僱主的話在工資上面來講在原始的規定現行的規定的話是工資責辦發給"},{"start":8870.211,"end":8894.197,"text":"那馬委員這邊的提案他是會提到是說比例發給但是還是設一個樓地板是一個百分之百分之還是百分之五十就原來的規定那這個部分的話我們是建議說因為他在這樣子改成比例減少發給的話計算上面會比較複雜一點那我們是建議說是這個部分維持現行的規定大概還算是對勞資關係的情況會比較橫平"},{"start":8897.538,"end":8922.698,"text":"那由於這次的相關的提案的話勞工團體、僱主團體的意見的話好像目前來講的話反應可能都比較不一我們是不是建議說是不是可以多一點時間來做進一步的意見收集然後再來做後面的討論以上好謝謝那如果與這個勞基法無關的行政官員現在可以先行離席謝謝"},{"start":8925.043,"end":8929.51,"text":"好那我們現在請委員發言來林淑芬委員"},{"start":8931.341,"end":8960.235,"text":"這個不行喔 這個部長剛才司長講的是說維持現行條文然後跟你在我諮詢的時候給我的承諾不一樣跟許民村部長也不一樣許民村部長承諾我了然後你在答詢台上你也承諾我你說給全新沒問題現在是錢的問題是到底雇主要出還是你要從哪個基金裡面去出公務我想公務預算你大概不可能啦齁"},{"start":8961.525,"end":8981.231,"text":"是錢的問題而已,並不是不想給全新價喔。我們一直在講說你要看到這個生產的美好為國家的貢獻,但你要看到你知道女人懷孕她有可能成功也有可能不成功,你要看見從事我們女人流產的失落和失去。"},{"start":8982.131,"end":9008.486,"text":"所以我在講說這個荷蘭給他的價名啊紐西蘭是叫做商價他是有薪商價那我們就不要在這裡做文章反正你給流產價就流產價現在的方向就是錢一定要全薪給不能半薪給當然是你剛來的話剛到的到值的那個再看比例這個是沒問題但是呢基本上概念就是全薪的有流產價"},{"start":9009.667,"end":9027.271,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中一條文修正草案案件及其中"},{"start":9038.633,"end":9042.083,"text":"所以這個天數也是極少之少的老師說才幾天而已"},{"start":9045.066,"end":9068.39,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及"},{"start":9075.504,"end":9075.947,"text":"請問還有委員要發言嗎?"},{"start":9083.135,"end":9106.108,"text":"關於這條我們當然希望就是說有新的這個流產價那這個天數跟這個這個薪資到底要從哪裡出如果照市長講的可能這個錢應該也不多我不知道說你們目前有沒有規劃就是說跟雇主你們這邊跟"},{"start":9107.489,"end":9128.684,"text":"公主應該也都還沒有針對這部分去討論那有沒有可能從基金或是從什麼樣的從勞動部這邊基金來支付是不是有可能這樣做那因為你們今天也沒有特別提出來那我不知道說未來是不是"},{"start":9129.906,"end":9142.525,"text":"我不知道說其他委員是不是可以再給包統部一些時間然後針對這部分你們可能要去討論一下到底這個錢是要由僱主出還是要由這個基金這邊來出"},{"start":9144.482,"end":9171.816,"text":"好因為如果說既然我們現在是少子化這麼嚴重鼓勵我們的這個婦女要這個生產那當然如果說萬一他是流產的話我覺得應該也要給有薪的這個流產價我覺得這個是合理的那只是說錢到底是誰出啦那是不是我可以建議在一些時間給勞動部針對這部分好這個錢的部分到底要由誰出去做一個規劃好謝謝主席"},{"start":9175.65,"end":9200.853,"text":"接下來另外一位基本上我覺得站在女性的角度上的確如果遇到這樣的事情的話又要自己請自己的假甚至病假這不太合理因為畢竟懷一個孩子在這歷程當中對身體都是一個很大的負擔可是他中間又還碰到流產那只是"},{"start":9202.094,"end":9225.272,"text":"是不是勞動部也是需要一些時間去思考說到底是僱主的負擔到底如果僱主負擔的話到底衝擊的層面因為畢竟台灣有很多是中小企業事實上小型企業它可能只有七八個人那它的金額上到底能不能去做負擔那另外一個如果要從政府來支應的話到底要從什麼預算出"},{"start":9225.572,"end":9246.647,"text":""},{"start":9246.967,"end":9264.336,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 條文提出具體可行的,才會事實上是對於女性不要潛藏最後又有隱形的一個暴力,然後使得她們不見得可以獲得這個資源。以上。」"},{"start":9265.316,"end":9268.537,"text":"林淑芬委員林淑芬委員林淑芬委員林淑芬委員"},{"start":9288.851,"end":9301.896,"text":"那所以可能是不是你們要去討論的是這個方向啦就到底是修正勞基法還是信工法信工法現在有價沒有薪但勞基法是沒有三個月以下的"},{"start":9303.416,"end":9323.911,"text":"到底是怎麼樣才能夠cover掉這個我們其實就是很簡單國家要真正要做的母性保護其實包含就是要接住這樣子的這個流產的女性她的傷痛國家要來為女性流產的傷痛我們要接住她所以"},{"start":9325.834,"end":9339.652,"text":"你知道我在醫療界我訂了一個法律叫做生育事故補償條例就我們不問責醫究不問責因為沒有人要當婦產科醫師了那婚育年齡都往後延所以很多糾紛"},{"start":9340.874,"end":9344.116,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面我們為什麼要優先訂出這個由國家來補償這個生育事故的時候的糾紛不問責喔不問責喔為什麼因為我們看到就是女性的生產其實是有國家的公共利益是為國家再生產的一個新的勞動力也好新的公民也好"},{"start":9364.827,"end":9390.115,"text":"其實是因為看到女性的再生產的這個部分她的生產是為國家貢獻很多的所以我們為什麼要做母性保護女性保護當然是要接住她們那你看到生產的美好怎麼可以不看到流產的傷痛所以我們是一個配套國家要接住女性流產的傷痛給全新就是這樣子"},{"start":9391.135,"end":9405.543,"text":"那不一定是只有適用勞基法的勞工是全體受僱的勞工應該也是要這樣子所以研議的方向應該是看我們要怎麼訂錢從哪裡給不是維持現行條文絕對不是維持現行條文好 謝謝那這個部分是不是勞動部對 部長來講一下"},{"start":9420.976,"end":9436.187,"text":"是謝謝委員的那個指導那就是說當然我們都同意我們也都能夠理解這個委員們對這個婦女這個他的懷孕孕期包括生產產價以及這個流產價的這樣子的一個關切啦我想我們盡力來研議處理好嗎"},{"start":9442.572,"end":9453.621,"text":"然後應該秀芳委員也有提出一個修正動議嗎那我們是可以接受啦就是三個月內我們提一個具體可行的評估方案出來這樣子是不是對還附帶決議對不起附帶決議"},{"start":9459.546,"end":9461.567,"text":"當中委員提到的兩個重點林淑芬委員還有多位委員都贊成要修法只是怎麼修的問題"},{"start":9489.401,"end":9502.778,"text":"對,怎麼修還有錢的問題。對,所以是要修喔。欸,那個主席我可不可以問一下,你們有做一個統計就是說一年大約有多少婦女是有六產,有做這樣的統計嗎?"},{"start":9506.402,"end":9526.637,"text":"報告委員大概我們從那個相關統計大概一年是大概四萬兩三千人那大概四萬兩三千人那三個月以上對四萬兩千人到四萬三千人這統計數據上面是有的那但是如果說是在三個月以下因為三個月以上的部分其實大概就現在有規定是給四周嘛"},{"start":9527.257,"end":9542.934,"text":"所以三個月以下的部分大概因為沒有特別再去切割那個數據進一步的數據我們就要抓三分之二啦因為大概就是說兩個月以下的那三個月兩個月到三個月這樣各抓三分之一再看那大概是兩萬八千多人兩萬九左右可是他本來就有半薪了"},{"start":9550.296,"end":9569.799,"text":"是,是他現在的話,如果他請普通傷病假的話,他就有半薪。你的四萬兩千人的資料是來自於你的請假的統計嗎?不是,是從那個有關那個流產人數的那個衛福部的相關的數據去抓出來的。可是如果按照性憑法他有請假?"},{"start":9570.629,"end":9595.226,"text":"他可能有請假他也有可能沒有請假他可以選擇要請性平法的流產假五天和七天的流產假你去健保署撈的嗎我記得對這個數字其實是老實說我很訝異啊怎麼原來女性一年流產這麼多人我聽到是蠻訝異的你確定你的數字是真實的他那個數字可能也有一些是其他就不是說真的是"},{"start":9595.546,"end":9605.396,"text":"我是有點,主席問你的是說一年流產多少人喔?是,那個是衛福部的資料衛福部的什麼資料衛福部喔,好來衛福部走了"},{"start":9613.643,"end":9641.252,"text":"我抱歉主席這個沒關係主席我們下一次下一次還可以再討論我們不怕欸跑得了而上跑不了廟我們這個議題一定要再追這個一定要委員會不要出去還要再討論就是說到底是有多少人到底他本來就要給半天的傷病假了半天半薪不是要半天是半薪啦半薪所以就差那一半那一半"},{"start":9643.142,"end":9667.94,"text":"到底是多少人?衝擊有多大?你們今天要審法案你們應該很精準啦老實說那如果照你們的現行的法律是性供法裡面就有價了為什麼你性供法裡面提不出你們自己的數據而是引用衛福部去聽去怕死人一年流傳四五萬人欸真的是台灣的女性的健康是怎麼了或是壓力負荷太大了嗎?包含墮胎喔?"},{"start":9674.306,"end":9680.852,"text":"喔喔喔好吧那這個這是另一種思維我們再來討論好了我想喔可以再討論知識提大再討論了"},{"start":9686.809,"end":9706.748,"text":"委員林德福等19人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 請假是不用通報,所以我們這邊不可能去掌握說就業服務法的精確數字啦,所以它是從衛福部看到的那個資料,所以如果下次要討論要請衛福部一起來,我們再跟他會好不好。」"},{"start":9710.259,"end":9732.604,"text":"之後也通知一下衛福部。衛福部你們的窗口應該是國建署吧?是不是?對不對?對對對。所以你們資料是從國建署那邊提供的嗎?是。OK。好。可能請他們data稍微確認一下他能不能分辨就是墮胎跟流產的"},{"start":9735.038,"end":9754.105,"text":"我們會後再來跟他們去詢問一下他們那個數據的那個有沒有進一步的去去做區分好這個再拜託你們好不好好那對"},{"start":9756.007,"end":9778.808,"text":"然後因為那個我們主要提案的委員萬美玲委員也來了,那是不是萬委員要不要表下意見?好,謝謝,謝謝昭偉那這邊告一個段落,我先來提一下那我這次提的這個關於第50條的一個這個修法那很清楚就是要把這個產價,原來我們現在現行是8週嘛然後希望能夠把它擴大到12週"},{"start":9780.209,"end":9791.036,"text":"那我想我在這個提案上面的說明其實很清楚也就是說我們這個老計法其實在民國73年制定那這個8週的產價到現在嚴格來說其實已經有95年沒有調整過了那我們再看其實世界各國的這個產價的這個這個產價週數幾乎都比我們國家的產價來的週數長很多那中間期有到12週14週甚至於有沒有有到16週18週的都有"},{"start":9807.225,"end":9835.276,"text":"所以其實這一次其實我們在修這個產價也是居中沒有去採這個最高最優的一個標準看就是用12週來看那另外我們也知道因為現在小子女化的關係其實很多人都不願意這個生孩子所以我們當然希望在政策上面盡量給他們很多的支持我想在那個分娩如果在第二胎以上的子女能夠用1.2倍的這個薪資來發放然後受雇未滿6個月的減半來發那分娩的第二胎以上的子女用7成去來給予"},{"start":9836.976,"end":9844.604,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":9858.806,"end":9867.614,"text":"那個主席對我們剛已經解釋過對我們這三個月內會做一個評估然後來跟委員我們再請委再跟委員報告好嗎"},{"start":9870.851,"end":9890.91,"text":"好 那個對不起因為那個剛剛那個提就是部長在說明的時候可能剛好本期不在那當然我希望說我們用三個月的時間其實其實也蠻久因為這個案子提出來也有一段時間了部長其實心裡大概也有一個想法啦那我們是希望能不能夠盡量往這個方向去支持因為這個產價以世界各國看起來我現在體修12個12週並沒有特別高但是我覺得"},{"start":9896.375,"end":9912.732,"text":"這一次這個修法其實已經有很多的婦女朋友們都知道這樣的一個修法提案其實他們都表示其實非常的支持跟贊成也期待也有非常大的期待所以我們也希望其實勞動部尤其部長您本身也是身為女性是不是也能夠一起來支持這樣的一個修法提案謝謝好那還有沒有其他的委員要發言"},{"start":9923.24,"end":9938.12,"text":"關於這個產價要延長的部分剛勞動部有特別說你們還要再找企業就是來開會那你們大概預計會多久會辦這樣子的一個就說立法院已經有這樣的提案要跟這一些業界再來做溝通"},{"start":9939.71,"end":9963.105,"text":"一個月之內召開會議可以嗎?可以嗎?好那就是你們要一個月之內就是邀相關的企業就是再來討論這個議題好不好?我們通常都一定要牢固雙方在談因為這到底符不符合牢房實際的需求也要跟他們討論一下因為牢基法是一個很硬的"},{"start":9967.125,"end":9987.683,"text":"老金法比較硬啦就是說我們其實在之前的報告也都有提到他他一旦請了他就沒辦法再回來對這樣會不會反而造成他工作上的困擾啊他這個也時不時用我們對不然您剛說會造成他什麼樣的困擾我不太理解就是懷孕女性他反而他就業上的歧視啦"},{"start":9988.903,"end":10013.898,"text":"我覺得這個是兩件事耶其實部長講這個我有點驚訝這完全是兩件事情我覺得我們對於就是就業婦女在這個職場上的保障這是另外一件事情不能說這樣她可能會回不來這樣的說法可能我覺得有欠妥事喔是委員的說法我們充分的尊重然後也支持好不好對好來林月請問一個這個方向來評估啦"},{"start":10016.432,"end":10031.045,"text":"若勞動部要開會議,我建議一個是找比較小型的,因為今天只有10個人的時候,我們都非常支持,因為的確少子化,我們都覺得這樣的產價"},{"start":10033.657,"end":10040.182,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":10050.169,"end":10058.136,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":10069.232,"end":10092.852,"text":"還有幼兒園幼兒園是一個蘿蔔一個坑他如果放三個月的產假他到底要怎麼去聘那個老師那個老師三個月不在的時候有沒有想好替代的人現在到處都缺工幼兒園缺的連非營利幼兒園都找不到老師都是去跟公立搶嗎搶不贏人家只要非營利一下就去考公立的非營利去搶私立的"},{"start":10095.914,"end":10122.455,"text":"然後非營利的老師又被公立搶走那這個只要缺一天有一個老師沒在的話那幼兒園又是只有一個園長那他怎麼去負擔這些東西你不能只有找大型企業找完之後最後呢轉嫁到民間裡面的時候讓民間到底怎麼去應對那我最怕的是兒童安全的問題為什麼老師不在因為現在目前就發生這種狀況就你本來就有"},{"start":10123.656,"end":10149.949,"text":"當我們特休的時候在我自己都算過你到第二年如果我有五個老師那我就已經有五七三十五三十五天事實上是每一天有人請假以外那如果又遇到我說因為我剛剛講這兩個勞動產業都是女性居多可是我最擔心的是幼兒園到時候是不是一個老師帶了22個小孩子在那邊可是"},{"start":10150.649,"end":10168.878,"text":"我今天教育部也沒在這邊那到時候怎麼去查到時候孩子出現問題的時候要不要來罵政府說那到底你們為什麼一直讓我孩子還有上次在去年度發生非營利幼兒園因為他沒有辦法請假所以他們惡虐孩子惡虐到多嚴重"},{"start":10170.018,"end":10177.683,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":10186.408,"end":10209.711,"text":"因為就是沒辦法請假 所以老師對孩子做了大規模這樣子的一個慘不忍睹的那樣的方式 我覺得一併要去考慮否則的話我覺得這很重要 可是你們的替代要想好我說我沒有不贊成 因為的確要照顧女性可是當女性這樣產業 你有沒有只是給就算這個一個月多一個月產假的薪水 如果是勞動不出的話"},{"start":10211.038,"end":10214.461,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件件"},{"start":10233.393,"end":10260.589,"text":"我覺得可能也是算是某種程度上職場上的霸凌。可能都一定要考慮。以上。好,我們請外媒林委員。謝謝昭薇。我想剛剛那個林耀勤委員說的我非常非常的贊成也非常的認同。就是我們在這個修法的時候很多的細節其實我們要去顧及到。當然大企業跟小的公司行後不同的就業職場的現場狀況是不一樣的。但是我在想"},{"start":10261.569,"end":10276.879,"text":"老段部長其實真的很難為尤其是在現在非常是缺工那每一個產業的面向又不同可是呢我還是這麼認為我想其實女性啊其實跟男性最大的不同可能就是我們有在這個生產這件事情上面不論是我們的身體狀況不論是我們的心理當時的狀況以及我們要去照顧孩子然後"},{"start":10282.402,"end":10297.228,"text":"還有我們要面對在認成的過程當中還有懷孕坐月子當中很多的問題我覺得其實我們是要給女性朋友更多的一些支持他們才會願意才能解決少子化的問題的其中一個要項"},{"start":10298.648,"end":10324.189,"text":"當然剛剛我覺得岳勤委員講的為什麼我也很贊成因為這些問題的確存在但是我覺得他要把它切開處理就是給部長也一個意見就是說我們要怎麼樣去看各行各業因為每一個行業裡面它是不一樣的比如說剛剛我們提到的假設我們用幼兒園來看它全部都是女性那跟用大系列來看跟用不同的這個產業別來看那我覺得問題不一定都是會一致的可是缺工有缺工在職場上應該處理的方式跟你們面對到的問題該怎麼去處理"},{"start":10327.992,"end":10346.665,"text":"但是不能因為在哪一個產業可能女性會比較多那甚至於可能把這個霸凌都可以拿來當作就是說可能因為這個某一個女的老師她這個去休產假了然後這個缺的這個職位沒有人可以來替代然後就產生這一連串算在上面我覺得對於這個職業婦女來說太沉重所以我覺得要去解決缺工的問題但是我們對於"},{"start":10354.07,"end":10374.466,"text":"懷孕認成願意生孩子的這些婦女職業婦女朋友們我們要給她多一些照顧這是完全兩件事情尤其剛才部長有特別提到的我覺得從上一屆本席就在提這個案子的時候其實當時的部長就有在提到說擔心這個婦女朋友生完孩子以後就回不來我覺得這都不是一個勞動部長應該說的話如果連勞動部長都認為說女性生完孩子以後可能回不來職場"},{"start":10380.391,"end":10386.815,"text":"這是太不得了的事情了我真的覺得對所有職業女性是抱屈啦所以我覺得這幾個面向很複雜很難解但是呢請部長多費心我們把它切開看那怎麼樣去解決這個缺工現場的問題以及我們這個認成婦女的這個權益的問題所以本席還是認為說我們去看全世界的世界的潮流跟標準我們取中間那12週其實是一個對他們的身體狀況跟對整個職場的影響我覺得它是一個折衷啦"},{"start":10409.73,"end":10417.412,"text":"所以我們還是希望部長往這個方向去做一個討論好不好謝謝好謝謝來廖偉祥委員"},{"start":10420.726,"end":10446.436,"text":"簡單來講我非常認同這個外媒領委的概念喔因為如果就好像上次我在質詢部長的時候你們的報告裡面就會寫到說這樣子可能會針對這個女性歧視的問題但我覺得這個問題是應該是兩回事因為你是一個勞動部部長當然你還是要介於這個勞資雙方之間做一個很好的溝通的橋樑可是如果你用這個理由去推脫說你覺得這個方向是不妥適或是不往這邊修的話"},{"start":10447.176,"end":10470.77,"text":"那其實是很奇怪的一件事,因為如果你跟其他世界國家比,標準是這樣,那難道他們不會也造成這樣子的問題嗎?所以關鍵應該是說,你往這個女性權益的方向移動的同時,你要怎麼樣把其他,剛剛包含月秦委員提到的一些配套,把它做好,然後跟這個地方,跟各個產業溝通好,應該是這樣子的面向。所以我認為這個方向上應該是往這個方向前進,謝謝。"},{"start":10474.661,"end":10502.669,"text":"黃秀芳委員謝謝主席我再補充一下因為臺灣小型企業微型企業是佔多數我們看到是這樣子那剛剛岳勤有特別提到譬如說私人以下的這些公司如果萬一裡面有一兩個就是請產價確實可能會對這個公司可能會有一些影響那剛剛部長有特別提到說也許會有一些歧視的問題"},{"start":10503.709,"end":10509.895,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":10519.445,"end":10526.691,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件事務委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事務委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事務委員"},{"start":10542.705,"end":10542.905,"text":"案案案"},{"start":10572.985,"end":10577.948,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案 案 。議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":10593.056,"end":10606.764,"text":"所以我們希望說部長希望你能夠在這個幾個月當中能夠提到一個更具體的一個評估的方案那我是不是可以建議就是說我們這個勞基法的部分是不是也可以擇期再審"},{"start":10611.605,"end":10611.925,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":10630.35,"end":10646.004,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及"},{"start":10649.207,"end":10675.305,"text":"桃園中醫幼兒園轉嫁到我覺得雇主身上我也同意為什麼請他們多聘替代人力否則光孩子若感冒的時候很容易傳染給老師老師平常請病假狀況就已經還蠻高一天當中搞不好若兩個人請假的話原來又有產假的那個需求那這些替代人力其他的法規的配套要不要去思考因為我們基本上都贊成產假如果能夠長的話讓女性"},{"start":10677.426,"end":10705.797,"text":"獲得能夠比較基本的照顧所以剛剛外媒林委員講說這是兩個問題我覺得它是要綁在一起因為會基深的誕生肌會合在一起會去思考還有一個我比較更關心的是今天如果因為這樣的狀況而能力不足的時候產生孩子傷害這個我不樂見因為過往就一直有發生這樣的狀況因為平常真的老師的能力上不足的時候一個人請假"},{"start":10706.878,"end":10713.325,"text":"讓一班上30個嬰兒就是兩個老師在照顧,可是30個嬰兒不應該是兩個人照顧,應該事實上是6個人。"},{"start":10716.766,"end":10718.407,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件件事件事件事"},{"start":10746.477,"end":10773.622,"text":"我們請外媒林委員好 謝謝我再補充說明一下我想這個謝謝瑞幸委員對我們幼兒的關心因為我自己也在教育文化委員會我想對於孩子的照顧這是絕對放在第一的但是我覺得絕對不必然兩者有一定的關聯難道所有的額虐都是因為有老師去生小孩了嗎所以這個我是不太認同的所以我想我再說明一次那這次我們提這樣的修法其實我們去看世界各個國家"},{"start":10774.182,"end":10789.128,"text":"如果台灣遇到這樣的困境然後有這樣的困難跟這樣的擔憂難道其他世界國家就沒有孩子了嗎所以我們看到其實我再提一次世界各國所有的產家規定至少都是10週以上日本14週新加坡16週澳洲18週國際勞工組織"},{"start":10791.289,"end":10818.012,"text":"也把產價最低標準放在14週甚至於建議可以到18週所以我想我們的產價只有8週是真的非常有檢討的必要而剛才我是不知道部長到底講的是一個月還是三個月的時間因為剛剛運行說一個月那事實上這個已經從上一屆我提出來的時候已經討論了四年了或者是其實這個議題大家講完了沒有出委員會或是大家熱度不在了以後其實就把它放著了那我覺得這一屆其實是應該好好去正視這樣的問題"},{"start":10819.173,"end":10846.816,"text":"但是不能把職場上面發生的風險跟傷害通通歸咎於某一個女性她去生產我覺得這樣是非常的不公平的所以這一次我們把它提出來8週變成12週我覺得真的可以好好照顧我們去生產的這個婦女的身心的健康那麼同時又可以鼓勵婦女在有這樣的一個權益或者是這個他們權益的保障下他們會更願意去生產"},{"start":10847.637,"end":10874.788,"text":"那至於剛說的額略我覺得在教育現場或者是在這個幼兒園部分本來就應該有很多的防範的機制那在其他的場域如果是女性從業是比較多的但我覺得不能因此而牽涉到某一個女性她願意去生產的時候就把所有的風險或者在職場上所有遇到的狀況都讓她去承擔我覺得這樣非常的不公平所以我想這一次的修正我還是再重申我們是取中間就是八周"},{"start":10875.268,"end":10893.786,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件,在1995年以來都沒有修正過。現在世界各國最高有到18週,我們取代中間12週。我想它是可以達到一個在職場上企業或勞僱關係之間的一個平衡點。最重要的是可以照顧我們願意來生產的這些婦女朋友。以上,謝謝。」"},{"start":10902.928,"end":10924.468,"text":"月勤委員跟秀芳委員提的確實是比較嚴重的問題就是勞基法因為它適用各行各業它很麻煩我要再強調它非常僵硬的一個法所以你看像他們提到的幼兒園我就必須要會教育部然後長照社福機構我就要會衛福部"},{"start":10926.129,"end":10948.037,"text":"還有像交通部那種運輸事業單位然後那個還有經濟部我也得會就是真的我跟您報告沒有這是真的當年我們在修勞基法的時候後來發現這根本就是一個跨整個行政院幾乎所有部會都會都會必須要去處理的所以我要跟委員報告一個月真的不夠啦我謝謝你們的提醒真的起碼三個月給我三個月的時間好嗎"},{"start":10954,"end":10980.396,"text":"因為這個一下去會不得了 因為那個到時候各種民怨你都想像不到就會跑出來對不起 趙薇再給我兩句話就好 部長我完全尊重就您剛剛說法其實您剛剛這樣坐著眉頭說我非常能夠感受得到您的壓力跟憂心那本來就是這樣啊勞基法或者是勞動部一法動全身每一個職場上你當然要跟各個部會去做溝通說明取得共識這本來就是我們工作上要做的事沒有那麼簡單嘛"},{"start":10982.177,"end":11011.174,"text":"您說這個一個月不夠我也OK因為它不是一件小事是一個大事但是如果您願意做我非常謝謝您因為在上一屆的時候我們提出來其實就是一個不了了之但如果我們願意投入時間你不要說三個月五個月我覺得我都可以給你但是我們要認真有進度然後真的有去溝通然後再告訴我們可以怎麼去進行那時間上我沒有問題但我希望部長不要朝著排斥的心態或是覺得很麻煩的心態然後就罰敷衍過去這樣子我就不能接受好不好"},{"start":11013.151,"end":11040.348,"text":"好 那個還有補充嗎我有一個附帶決議就是說請勞動部這邊三個月內提出具體可行的評估方案那是不是可以用我的這個附帶決議來通過可以嗎附帶決議通過但主法案還沒有我知道但我們的法案還沒有送出去對啊"},{"start":11041.567,"end":11069.616,"text":"那個稍微我們今天法案就是沒有送出去的情況底下應該沒有通過附帶決議的問題好不好那所以那個那個剛剛聽完各位人的意見我想第一個勞動部坦白講這一個工作老早就應該要開始做了跟社會各界的溝通不是說委員會今天排審你今天才要開始溝通這個容我提醒勞動部"},{"start":11070.629,"end":11097.46,"text":"那第二個剛剛其實已經答應委員會一個月就會召開就應該一個月你要先開始去召開在委員會裡面不可以改來改去部長你新部長我提醒你不要前面答應過的事情後面委員講一講然後你就順著就說喔好那這樣子一個月真的不行三個月不行喔部長你的話一出一言九鼎剛剛你在前段的時候就說一個月可以去召開會議那就是一個月開始去召開"},{"start":11100.899,"end":11124.615,"text":"那你要分不同的對象分別去召開你勞動部人手多的是那就分不同的對象去召開我想這個對你來講不是什麼問題因為不是每一場都是你部長要主持的啦這個下面的這個大家分工去研討就可以啦那重點是外美林委員所提的啦就是說到底勞動部在這件事情上面"},{"start":11125.117,"end":11133.182,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文"},{"start":11152.922,"end":11176.738,"text":"對女性好一點希望他可以增產報國所以我們很多的條件都在修包括過去我們不給這個家裡面有子女的這一些育兒津貼給的也沒那麼高但是因為少子化我們願意再加碼這個就是時代不一樣我們要有一些新的思維所以剛剛外美林委員他提出這樣的一個案子他還提到其實不只上屆上上屆"},{"start":11179.827,"end":11187.274,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文"},{"start":11199.882,"end":11224.85,"text":"勞動部開始啟動了你真的去收集意見真的看看哪一些是可以突破的而不是一直原地踏步啊就是如果只是要交代委員會的虛擬故事我覺得倒是不必了但是真的認真去開會然後去找到大家可以接受的方法我覺得這個才比較有意義啦坦白講是這樣子"},{"start":11225.714,"end":11232.121,"text":"那找各式各樣的藉口然後回過頭說啊這個不可行我覺得這樣是比較消極了可以嗎"},{"start":11237.52,"end":11238.06,"text":"另外一位?"},{"start":11238.06,"end":11238.16,"text":"另外一位?"},{"start":11238.16,"end":11238.341,"text":"另外一位?"},{"start":11261.337,"end":11261.517,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具"},{"start":11272.383,"end":11292.069,"text":"同意岳勤委員的提議可以嗎?只是我一個月內開會啦。對啊,你剛剛就答應一個月內一定要開會啊。啊你真正,剛剛本來就是說三個月你要有完整的研議嘛。那個萬委員可以嗎?三個月他提出一個最周延的整個的研議方案好不好?對啊。"},{"start":11298.646,"end":11319.366,"text":"好 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護期間按照這個當時的刑法87條那麼他的監護期間最多5年而且僅能在特定場所來執行"},{"start":2250.455,"end":2271.22,"text":"後來因為相關的心理社會障礙者觸犯刑法的情形持續發生所以監護制度就明顯有不足所以就針對這種監護制度還有執行來加以修正"},{"start":2272.697,"end":2293.286,"text":"那按照這個修正或現行的這個監護的期間是可以這個無限期來持續延長但應該要隨著時間的增加來提高它審查的密度那按照現行的這個刑法87條"},{"start":2296.412,"end":2311.318,"text":"監護先靠期間雖然仍然是5年以下但是在期滿前得由檢察官來申請法院延長第一次延長期間是3年以下第二次以後每次延長期間為1年以下"},{"start":2313.988,"end":2338.985,"text":"那麼雖然這個第二次以後的延長沒有處事的限制但是應該要有具體理由並且應該要隨時來檢視執行的方法以及有無繼續執行的必要避免造成不當的長期的監禁那麼按照現行的這個監護的執行方式也是多元不限於在特定場所"},{"start":2341.786,"end":2356.329,"text":"那因為在當時那個刑法87條修正的同一天也同步來修正保安處分執行法第46條的規定那麼檢察官他可以按照"},{"start":2357.844,"end":2373.274,"text":"保安處分執行法46條所規定的裡面有6款的情形選擇其中一款或數款的方式來執行監護有助於提高監護的成效"},{"start":2375.523,"end":2388.97,"text":"那接下來就是說這個在111年2月18號修正公布的刑事訴訟法暫行安置啊的這樣的一種機制齁那麼它是兼顧到這個"},{"start":2391.272,"end":2408.047,"text":"這些相關的心理社會障礙處罰者他的醫療需求以及程序潛力的保障還有社會安全的防護強化社會安全網這些都要兼顧啦都要兼顧所以按照那個"},{"start":2409.44,"end":2422.719,"text":"相關的那個刑事失控法第121條之一第一項的規定那麼被告經過法官行論之後認為有犯罪嫌疑重大而且有事實指認為"},{"start":2424.497,"end":2442.526,"text":"刑法第19條第一項或第二項的原因可能存在而有危害公共安全之餘並且有緊急必要的話可以來裁定6個月以下的期間令日這個司法精神醫院、醫院還有精神醫療機構還有其他適當的場所來施以這個暫行安置"},{"start":2447.438,"end":2468.238,"text":"那這個暫行安置因為它既有基數人身自由性質所以應該要注意它整個程序的這個保障所以在刑事司法第121條之一也有很詳盡的規定並且這個在那個之二第三項也給予被告還有辯護人適當的時間來為陳述或答辯的這個準備"},{"start":2472.398,"end":2486.775,"text":"那整個來講就是要運用整個那個關於積壓還有暫行安置還有監護必須要提供這些相關這個心理社會障礙處罰者他最適當的一個刑罰的處意"},{"start":2491.988,"end":2503.387,"text":"那最後一項就是關於暫行安置還有監護的他的執行的場域的維安那這個基本上是尊重檢察官的執行啦但是法院對於"},{"start":2504.953,"end":2515.696,"text":"執行主規的盪火有審查的這個權限因為由相關的這個規定來看行事訴訟法第457條第一項前段第121條第4項還有這個保安處分執行法第一條還有行事訴訟法"},{"start":2525.799,"end":2554.176,"text":"第一百二十一條之六第一項這些規定來看那暫行安置、監護的執行乃至於場域的維安所以檢察官依照這個刑事訴訟法還有保安處分執行法來指揮那基本上是真重那因為由相關的這個最高法院的一百零八年度抬抗至八四二號的裁定還有一百零八年度抬抗至一二號的裁定這些裁定一直來看"},{"start":2555.137,"end":2571.758,"text":"那這個法院對於檢察官執行的當後還是有審查之權那以上報告敬請指教謝謝好 謝謝秘書長下一位我們請法務部正部長報告"},{"start":2584.18,"end":2608.221,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生那今天受邀列席貴委員會就代表法務部列席報告並備質詢那報告內容如下那有關於暫時安置與監護的一個制度呢那暫行安置的一個制度只要是在偵審中即使給予精神障礙及其他心智缺陷、被告即使一個醫療處置來強化社會安全網"},{"start":2609.127,"end":2638.334,"text":"那在執行這部分本部已經建制標準化的流程並完成相關的一個配套一個機制那監護處分的一個制度目的是降低受處分的災患危險而使能回歸社會以精神醫療照護來接觸的方式來替代完全社會隔離的監制那管理程序這部分我們是採取多元處理分級分流流動流轉定期評估與轉型的一個機制那也搭配"},{"start":2640.74,"end":2661.655,"text":"轉弦機制無用接軌整個完整的社會安全網那管理執行的具體作為有健全司法精神鑑定評估小組與分級分流的處理機制那全力來配合行政院的規劃與衛生福利部共同籌設司法精神醫院病房那建立轉弦機制召開轉弦會議"},{"start":2664.059,"end":2686.713,"text":"那在暫時安置與監護處分執行機構場域安全的檢討這部分關於執行處所暫時安置的一個處所包括司法、精神醫院、醫院、精神醫療機構跟其他適合暫行安置的一些的處所那監護處分的處所包括"},{"start":2690.831,"end":2716.765,"text":"我們是以受處分的精神狀況來不同的一個處域以分級分流那關於司法精神醫院病房的一個監制是由衛福部跟法務部共同來設置的那進度這部分司法精神醫院病房預計在114年能夠完工那病房部分在113年底可以完成84%的一個量能"},{"start":2718.827,"end":2729.004,"text":"114年底會全部建制完成那執行狀況這部分的司法精神醫院在建制之前有各地檢署來洽詢醫療"},{"start":2732.998,"end":2733.538,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":2763.458,"end":2788.793,"text":"來收治那這部分的調配是由臺高檢署來負責調配呢那執行的一個安全維護這部分呢因為以收治中高度的風險為主的這些的司法精神病院呢他跟一般的精神醫療院所的病患是不一樣的所以在安全維護設施與人員足以強化"},{"start":2789.753,"end":2810.463,"text":"那關於各地檢視洽詢醫療院所收治這部分呢那我們會依照病人的一個病況來指定設有精神科設備的醫療機構或者是衛護部指定是辦理精神疾病嚴重病人強制住院的醫療機構接受治療這是一個分級分流的一個觀念"},{"start":2811.463,"end":2837.325,"text":"那檢察官也會做定期的一個視察每個月要視察一次那至於保安處分的執行會隨時視察那如果改善的我們也會建立改善那專案會呈報法務部那有關你策進作為那我們也會由檢察機關進行視察盤點確認是我加強改善的一個必要並將結果納入伺候要繼續要指定這些醫療院所來作為"},{"start":2838.025,"end":2856.415,"text":"執行監護處分處所依據．法務部委員會．邀請衛福部共同辦理安全維護課程．基於政務議題．法務部本已職責與衛福部共同完善社會安全網計畫以上報告 敬請主席、各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2862.681,"end":2868.784,"text":"其餘機關報告請參閱書面 機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":2883.515,"end":2899.893,"text":"我們就確認一下議事錄議事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢了目前尚未確定那我們現在就先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好 謝謝那議事錄的部分確定"},{"start":2901.786,"end":2918.849,"text":"我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在我們先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2930.747,"end":2936.572,"text":"謝謝召委,麻煩有請司法院秘書長以及法務部部長兩位早,時間的關係不宜問候我想先請教一下法務部部長,就是目前"},{"start":2955.629,"end":2974.208,"text":"科技偵查法的草案行政院已經處理完畢了嘛在整個科技偵查的手段上面我們為了要有效打擊犯罪那有必要採取科技偵查的手段來進行犯罪的偵辦我相信這個是科技偵查法最重要的立法目的"},{"start":2975.652,"end":2977.713,"text":"手機定位這部分我是不是可以請"},{"start":3004.504,"end":3019.79,"text":"請那個我們那個方次長代位回答可以部長你應該要很熟啊你已經當到檢察長了欸好了沒有關係啊次長我不為難部長來請各位報告按照我們現行通報法的規定我們有調取票的規定可以去調取相關的"},{"start":3020.37,"end":3041.611,"text":"所謂要取票的規定是說你對於特定人藉由他的手機訊號到底在哪裡這件事情是不是法官保留的事項目前為是除了緊急狀況或者特定犯罪可以夾怪處理好我們來看一下定位手機使用的位置是屬於通保法的通訊監察沒有錯吧"},{"start":3043.171,"end":3044.652,"text":"目前是這樣目前是這樣子嗎?好"},{"start":3073.783,"end":3086.716,"text":"那如果沒有法官合法的調取票電信業者他違法的提供基地財的資訊包括手機定位的資訊違反通保法第幾條的規定這個是 這個"},{"start":3095.716,"end":3109.585,"text":"我答案都幫你寫了所以就請部長回答好嗎我沒有要考你法條啊所以我把通保法的規定一條一條都做在PPT上就是沒有要考部長法條是不是可以請部長回答違反通保法第幾條的規定"},{"start":3111.136,"end":3127.695,"text":"這個第24條 這個委員寫的是24條第24條嘛那如果在執行通訊監察的從業人員假借職務上或業務上的權利、機會或方法犯前項之罪6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑 沒有錯吧這個法條是這樣寫的好"},{"start":3131.803,"end":3159.471,"text":"因為這個樣子我們現在傳統的方法是跟電信業者調取資訊台的資訊碼那如果我們繞一個道我們不透過電信業者我們透過M化車去取得已經知道的IMEI或IMSI就是手機或者是他的卡片上面的資訊定位他所要偵查的對象因為我們最高法院的判決認為"},{"start":3162.113,"end":3186.19,"text":"這個會去影響到目標所在對象的位置資訊那這個牽涉到個人隱私個人資訊重大的侵害所以我們必須要有法律保留原則沒有錯吧是的好那就是因為這個樣子啊所以科技偵查法草案第3條的規定才會跟通保法一樣我們原則上面啊都採取法官保留原則對不對"},{"start":3188.517,"end":3203.585,"text":"第三條的話是屬於GPS這部分他有短時間的在沒有超過24小時或者是期間未達兩日的這部分那個是檢察官、司法警察警察官他是可以就短期的"},{"start":3204.505,"end":3221.512,"text":"來做一個一個這樣的一個科技偵查的一個手段那超過那個時間呢那個法官保留好我們把現行法的規範以及未來我們在科技偵查法裡面的規範我們定位清楚以後我接下來啊出現了一個讓我沒有辦法理解的問題"},{"start":3222.933,"end":3246.303,"text":"什麼叫做沒有辦法理解的問題啊?為什麼民主進步黨的高層他可以取得大規模的手機定位資訊來進行家語分析?請注意喔!這個不是單一的事件、單一的時間、單一的場所去識別化以後的商業分析資料"},{"start":3247.263,"end":3272.384,"text":"這個是涉及到不同的時間不同的地點交叉分析使用者的個人資訊你要做這個cross reference你才有知道說在A時間假地點B時間已地點C時間定地點這三群人是不是同一群人做這樣子的分析我現在的問題來了"},{"start":3275.621,"end":3299.55,"text":"這種資訊是不是我們現行法所保護的個人資訊?這個是屬於個人的資訊是不是受到現行法律所保護?是不是?若法律有保護的話當然要保護好 那我的問題來囉他如何取得大規模的這樣子的資訊"},{"start":3302.601,"end":3329.334,"text":"電信業者可以合法提供這種資訊嗎?請教部長對這個個案我並不清楚你不需要知道個案我剛剛是跟你講我們抽象的來講竟然有人可以大規模的取得在A時間甲地點B時間乙地點C時間丙地點三群人大家的手機定位資訊"},{"start":3331.062,"end":3356.107,"text":"還知道他的年齡喔可以做Course Reference喔去具體的講經過分析這是三群不同的人這是很可怕的事情喔因為所有手機使用者大家關心的第一個問題是說這種資訊從何而來除了電信業者可以取得以外依照現行法還有誰可以取得"},{"start":3358.391,"end":3386.843,"text":"請教部長通緝監察保障法裡面寫得很清楚啦除了電信業者有這樣的資訊以外還有誰可以取得這個依通保法的規定當然是依通保法的規定所以我才請教部長嘛只有三種狀況嘛一個是電信業者有嘛第二個是檢察官偵辦犯罪的時候取得嘛第三個是什麼國安監察嘛除了這三種狀況以外還有其他的狀況嗎請教部長"},{"start":3391.104,"end":3406.889,"text":"請教部長我現在在想的是就我對於這些資訊的掌控、保管以及取得我也沒有漏掉其他的狀況還有其他的方法可以合法取得的請教部長"},{"start":3413.289,"end":3441.468,"text":"這個我們...這個個案...個案...我現在沒有在跟你講個案阿我現在在跟你講抽象的法律問題阿當然抽象的法律問題如何含涉...如何含涉到個案要不要偵辦這個就看檢察官的良心了檢察官職權上知道有犯罪嫌疑的時候要不要依法啟動調查這個要事實主義認定對嘛"},{"start":3444.014,"end":3470.635,"text":"當這個人公開的聲稱啊他有這些資訊可以進行交互的比對分析使用者位置資訊的不同還知道他們的年齡這個會牽涉到他怎麼合法取得這個資訊的問題啊如果這樣的事實還不夠明確連使用者大剌剌的都講了我有啊"},{"start":3472.506,"end":3486.714,"text":"我還取得了交互分析的資料這時候檢察官該不該介入調查這部分如果說有訴訟法245條那個228條的一個情況的話那檢察官就會啟動調查你認為這有沒有訴訟法228條的情況這個案我就不評論好沒有關係我今天公開檢舉"},{"start":3500.56,"end":3527.388,"text":"我今天公開檢舉我不是那種阿會去私下關說司法的人阿我對於檢察官對於法官我作為一個法律人我非常的尊重我非常的尊重我絕對不會去做那種私下施壓或是不法關說阿的行為我今天在司法法制委員會我從通保法的規範從各自法的規範我公開檢舉這件事情"},{"start":3530.688,"end":3557.561,"text":"請檢察官發揮法律人的良知良能一定要徹底調查這件事啊太離譜啦這是國家監控嗎這個是不肖的電信業者提供的資訊還是有人在進行國安監察的時候不法的外露這個資訊給法律上沒有權力"},{"start":3559.082,"end":3586.917,"text":"知道使用這個資訊的人使用這顯然有犯罪嫌疑啊我今天利用這個公開的場合我公開檢舉希望檢察官依法調查您是部長我知道你處理行政上面的事情嘛檢察官的個案偵查屬於檢察官個案偵查的權責嘛但是我們法律上面的規定啊一定要講得清清楚楚要不然每一個使用手機的人"},{"start":3588.035,"end":3598.621,"text":"他去哪裡 參加什麼活動竟然可以被一個莫名其妙根本不是公務員的人知道部長 你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎部長你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎還是你覺得 這很正常啊"},{"start":3609.693,"end":3636.024,"text":"我們國家就是這樣啊這件事情再正常不過了哪有什麼犯罪嫌疑何必要檢察官介入調查部長如果說有228條的那個檢察會就會依法來處理好我認為有228條的規定我現在公開的告發我現在公開的告發我希望檢察官可以聽到我今天公開的告發來接下來請秘書長"},{"start":3639.605,"end":3649.255,"text":"之前我請教郭秘書長我們現在的刑事訴訟法有依法必須要自行迴避有申請迴避兩種事有嗎?絕對沒有施壓迴避這種事嗎?"},{"start":3657.884,"end":3679.935,"text":"當然沒有施壓迴避我也知道沒有施壓迴避但法律上面不允許施壓迴避我們要檢驗現實上面有沒有施壓迴避這件事嘛上次我利用質詢秘書長的時間我公開檢舉了這件事情啊有一個金融重犯他非常有辦法非常有辦法可能是炒TDR錢賺太多啊"},{"start":3680.865,"end":3705.477,"text":"他可以找立法委員幫他的個案推動修法甚至在他陳審他自己刑事訴訟的案件當中可以讓什麼可以讓我們高等法院高等法院的上級長官去施壓陳審的法官要求陳審的法官回避我上次公開檢舉這件事情了以後"},{"start":3706.536,"end":3734.495,"text":"然後台灣高等法院澄清新聞稿說說我在立法院執行的時候提到本院前行政庭庭長呈現案件的陳審法官施壓要求上千字請迴避純屬誤會我那時候就公開請教過啊什麼事情純屬誤會是沒有這件事情我黃國昌在司法法制委員會詢答的時候我胡說八道"},{"start":3735.616,"end":3745.31,"text":"還是有這件事情但是他認為這不是施壓因此我們就請司法院做了調查報告來看一下這個調查報告"},{"start":3747.819,"end":3774.427,"text":"2022年8月2號這你們調查報告上面自己寫的喔這個庭長打電話給這個法官說紅庭長跟我說他跟李院長討論過了李院長指示我要上千啊自請迴避院長可以指示陳審法官上千自請迴避嗎來請教一下秘書長依照現行刑事訴訟法的規定高等法院的院長可不可以指示"},{"start":3775.972,"end":3804.58,"text":"陳審法官自請迴避向委員說明吼這個就我們有向我們司法法治委員會提出我們的這個調查調查結果啦吼調查結果這個書面吼裡面有詳有詳細細數吼我知道啦你們調查報告我看過你不用複述啦我覺得你們的調查報告在文過是非啊"},{"start":3805.68,"end":3814.417,"text":"英文叫做sugar code所以我才要一件一件跟你理清楚嘛我們法律人依法論法討論清楚啊"},{"start":3815.492,"end":3837.125,"text":"院長可以指示陳審法官上千次請迴避嗎?這個是我的問題啊這個向委員說明我們在這個書面調查報告裡面有詳細說明當時是這個洪院長還有李院長是出於關心保護來建議紀法官"},{"start":3839.346,"end":3850.269,"text":"所以到底是關心還不是關心你牽涉到的完全是什麼個人主觀動機的問題嘛就是只是因為要所以我現在因為"},{"start":3851.516,"end":3852.417,"text":"這個向委員說明這個是司法院綜合各種資料齁"},{"start":3876.249,"end":3901.149,"text":"審慎綜合判斷的結果認為我沒有問你最後認定的結果是什麼我只問你現在司法院的標準是不是只要院長出於關心就可以要求陳審的法官上千字請迴避我的問題就這麼簡單因為當時按照這個台灣高等法院分案實施要點這個第10點第4款就是說"},{"start":3902.529,"end":3930.325,"text":"是當時這個臺高院法官會議就法官有自行迴避事由之外那其他可能有偏頗之餘的情形那事先以這個抽象規定得由院長來好沒有關係剛剛你現在講到另外一個抽象規定說院長這個時候可以介入時間的關係我們下一次遇到司法院秘書長的時候我再進一步請教謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位"},{"start":3931.636,"end":3933.304,"text":"現在我們請鍾嘉賓召位"},{"start":3950.421,"end":3974.942,"text":"謝謝主席的包容就像您上次包容我因為檢報的誤差給我比較多的寬限的時間也您包容我們本會委員的發言的時間接下來我們主席在場委員先進離開了列席的政府機關事長、官員會長、公眾夥伴有請我們法務部正部長和衛福部的代表李簡正衛福部代表"},{"start":3980.928,"end":3995.154,"text":"委員長部長好我們李義正好部長其實今天我們要談的是關於司法精神病院跟第一線醫護的安全那剛剛您在回答前面委員的問題我想請教一下這個您對於"},{"start":3996.556,"end":4024.926,"text":"手機、通訊業者、基地台這些大數據的管理你有深入的了解嗎?我只有基本的了解基本了解但是我建議你要深入了解其實呢自從建橋事件之後全世界這幾年來啊對於我們掌握的這些通訊資料進入到業者的大數據那麼有沒有隱私上的維護問題這是一個很深入的問題那剛剛呢關心到的那些事件我建議呢未來的科證法"},{"start":4025.566,"end":4049.31,"text":"通保法我們本委員會都會排審那希望你要指定專人好好的去研究雖然你們在司法的方面非常專業但是相關的電信跟數據的運用你們要專人來瞭解可以嗎瞭解之後才能夠做正確的一個回應好那接下來我們來看一下上次我就跟你請教過了那麼我們從基隆監護的逃犯那個地方"},{"start":4049.73,"end":4077.29,"text":"那個是一般的精神醫療機構對不對是那麼根據我們的保安處分執行法當中其實這些處所呢他的介護人員有沒有採取必要的措施這是由法務部來定沒有錯吧好那我們往下看那其實呢暫行安置與監護處分他的執行機構目前上次也跟你請教過目前我們有在規劃中的司法精神病院跟司法精神病房那麼我去查過你們的資料那你們有"},{"start":4077.93,"end":4095.133,"text":"用AI科技設備來做一些安全上的管理比如說我們看到報導高雄的凱旋醫院的周院長呢透過創新科技就是ISAF來建置在我們的手間的司法精神病房是不是這樣子是的"},{"start":4095.373,"end":4116.091,"text":"那這裡面包含了一些包括他可以探測他的身體訊息、然後偵測去識別化的影像還有在公共場所進行人臉辨識你了解這些部分嗎?知道那請問除了這些司法精神專用的病院跟病房那在剛剛前述那個基隆的精神醫療機構他有沒有類似的具體安全維護措施?"},{"start":4117.032,"end":4117.512,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4136.821,"end":4162.677,"text":"有沒有具有這樣的能力目前是還沒有到達還沒有到達好那所以法務部的工作很重要我們往下看根據你們的報告你們打算在113年今天的報告當中114年要完成114年要收治對不對這是司法精神病院的部分司法精神病房醫院這部分醫院的部分那病房的部分呢目前在南部的已經司法精神病院已經但是看起來進度是落後的喔"},{"start":4163.517,"end":4179.771,"text":"那個我們是希望預計在今年那個北部跟東部預計在下半年就可以完成收治另外比較慢的是中部的明年會目前總共就55床對不對但是呢司法精神病院他會有0b效果"},{"start":4180.351,"end":4181.933,"text":"請問一下我們衛福代表,你們是不是有類似這樣的反應?"},{"start":4195.339,"end":4214.572,"text":"跟委員報告,確實我們當初在招募人員的時候,我們有考量這類醫護人員的安全的考量。好,所以來部長,你們不只在新建專門的司法精神病院,有鄰庇設施要跟社區溝通,是不是包括鄰庇設施之外,你們在籌建這個醫院的時候,還有醫療人員招募上的困難,你了解嗎?"},{"start":4215.878,"end":4240.356,"text":"醫療人員這部分這個是醫療資源部分這是由衛福部來主管所以你們負責蓋他負責來經營跟管理我們是負責在安全保全的這部分安全維護這部分設施跟培訓好那我們來看一下就是之前也跟您請教過在中間的那個案子那個案子呢他是列管後個案就送醫他是從高雄那邊有列管的好那他本身有其他的外傷我們往下看"},{"start":4240.996,"end":4248.826,"text":"但是呢,就他的一個精神的狀況來講,我們舉例來講,請教一下衛福代表,急性精神患者,他目前有沒有風險的分級?"},{"start":4251.31,"end":4276.397,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們在社區訪視的個案他是有1到5級的分級1到5級那如果是急性的呢他要送醫院來急診處一般出院的個案我們都是把它歸類為一級都歸類為一級有分科但是目前呢我們知道你分了一級是沒有另外的額外的風險分級是不是這樣對對我們是基於照護的需要是基於照護的需要但是有沒有思考到他可能會對醫護人員產生攻擊或其他人找生威脅的情況有沒有考慮到這一點有"},{"start":4277.853,"end":4305.859,"text":"有但是目前沒有辦法做分級目前我們是有委託這個草寮有一個因為我們有一個call center所以他有個暴力風險那個評估量是的所以你們目前對於急性的精神病患疾患者你們有委託在做他的暴力風險的評估了好部長這個就一個重點了我們來看一下就你所知啊我們的警消人員他們是不是在法律上賦有他們一個禁止或處分的一個權利是的那他們也有危險的職務加急"},{"start":4307.259,"end":4314.935,"text":"那你知道未來的司法精神病院對於急性的精神病急患者有沒有加擠有沒有緊急處分的權利有沒有"},{"start":4317.123,"end":4342.309,"text":"來請問報告目前我們在司法、精神病房跟醫院我們都有給醫事人員危險加給有危險加給那他們有沒有其他的對他做拘束的一些權利法律上的授權那就回歸到我們精神衛生法可能會送到保護室那又會做一些約束隔離就是精神衛生法的問題好來來部長我跟你說齁其實是這樣子這個呢我需要法務部來幫忙剛剛他們是純粹說就治療的部分"},{"start":4343.309,"end":4366.819,"text":"會送到一個保護室去做拘束但是今天呢我們看到的是當急診送進來的時候以剛剛那個案例很有可能是這樣的情況他可能具有攻擊性他可能對他人甚至醫護人員造成一個暴力上攻擊的風險那我們在警察職權刑事法警察有強制力對不對他在28條的部分消防法21條之一20條之一他有退避權必要的時候消防人員他可以離開危險的現場"},{"start":4368.291,"end":4381.564,"text":"那你認為未來在司法精神病院當中我們是不是要同時賦予這些醫護人員除了專業的危險加急之外應該給他適當的一個法律上的保障這部分醫療的法規應該有相關的一個具備了嗎?足夠了嗎?"},{"start":4383.315,"end":4399.396,"text":"跟委員報告目前我印象中是在保職法的部分法務部有考量這個因素把他納進來法務部有考量這個因素有納進來哪一個法律告訴我們部長保安處分執行法保安處分執行法有沒有我們會這部分草案目前是草案"},{"start":4400.057,"end":4424.645,"text":"目前是草案嘛好所以今天我們談這個議題很謝謝趙偉排這個議題因為這個議題呢我過去我在衛環也關心過在這裡也關心過所以我們希望你們考慮往下一個怎麼樣完善面對急性精神病患者面對這些急性的精神病急患者的醫護人員他的安全跟待遇未來你們的司法精神病院這些人天天暴露在這第一險的可能風險當中你認為呢的確是"},{"start":4427.779,"end":4449.856,"text":"那是不是這樣子那我是不是可以請剛剛衛福部說他們有一個暴力風險的評估正在研擬當中你們目前的法案也在整修當中什麼時候可以給一個完整的報告讓我們委員會來幫我們這些未來的司法精神病醫院當中的醫護人員給他們一些保障那我們來盡速推動"},{"start":4450.396,"end":4467.2,"text":"好,那麼一個月內提出一個書面報告,可以嗎?可以那你裡面要包含魏副剛剛說的對於急性精神病急患者的暴力風險評估以及他們,你們在緊急處分的時候的一些法令上給予這些第一線人員的一些授權,可以嗎?可以好,謝謝謝謝謝謝,謝謝鍾委員"},{"start":4476.138,"end":4476.678,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4511.834,"end":4514.235,"text":"我們現在先休息三分鐘 謝謝各位"},{"start":4541.216,"end":4548.765,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4560.124,"end":4560.725,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4581.559,"end":4582.42,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4600.079,"end":4610.449,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4629.952,"end":4630.272,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4711.492,"end":4711.673,"text":"莊銳雄委員"},{"start":4737.674,"end":4738.374,"text":"政務司司長"},{"start":4756.311,"end":4779.622,"text":"我要來先就教我們鄭部長我想在上個禮拜台灣算其實是不太平靜當然不是只有我們立法院立法院這個競技場本來就是時空見慣那上個禮拜我們就看到像除了說整個終結的一個砍人事件以外讓社會相當恐慌的就是另外一位受監護處分的就是"},{"start":4780.702,"end":4809.349,"text":"從基隆某間醫院脫逃以後在北部這個地方這樣流竄我相信就是因為造成一些恐慌才讓臺北市有一些學校它才暫停的一個開放幸好到最後是落網但是同時這個案件 個案也透露了讓國人去意識到說我們整個監護的一個處分到底哪一些地方必須要再去補破網的一個地方"},{"start":4810.325,"end":4832.495,"text":"那這次的個案裡面你說從法院依殺人未遂去判處3年然後在執行刑法前先進行5年這樣的一個監護你全案定驗以後交到台北地檢署去執行那今年3月排到基隆某精神醫院的一個監護這個程序看起來好像都很順暢但是社會上很多案例"},{"start":4834.335,"end":4857.473,"text":"看起來其實不像我們所看到的這樣子也就是說一個人是不是受監護的一個處分你等法官判決那判決確定以後檢察官再按照這個情況去找適合的一個處遇的一個機構我想請教部長就是說你們認為現在最大的問題處在什麼地方"},{"start":4859.982,"end":4876.931,"text":"目前我認為最大的問題就是因為監護處的確是要醫療照護來代替那個那個就把它當作屬性把它界定在病人的這個這個主體但是因為我們現在醫療的這部分的有"},{"start":4878.131,"end":4898.437,"text":"醫療處所的這邊的資源是還不夠的那而且最主要就是有意要做這些有管理監護執行監護受治監護處分的這些的醫院的意願不高在現在有這些的其實說有這些的充分的比較多的資源的醫院這部分我沒有去了解是意願是不高的"},{"start":4898.937,"end":4913.152,"text":"那我們也擔心就是有醫院高的那這些收治的這些的處所是這些的醫療的這些的資源這些尤其是安全維護的這個措施是不是足夠那這部分我們也是要去比較擔心的不然一定是不夠啦"},{"start":4914.059,"end":4941.035,"text":"那所以說我們才會去跟有行政人員統籌來籌設精神司法精神病房醫院的這些的這個速度齁這個速度其實齁要建制還有很長一段路要走了我請教秘書長就是說秘書長你譬如說啊法官就下一個判決下完了以後啊接下來脫離法院啦齁是是是依你們所看到的你們認為"},{"start":4943.376,"end":4969.322,"text":"我們檢方這樣的一個執行你有沒有看到什麼樣必須要趕快這個網把補起來的地方我舉例啊假設這個案例啊假設有幾個案例是在媽祖媽祖受刑人在媽祖或者說這個被判決應該受監護的對象在媽祖我媽祖我沒有部長你媽祖只有檢察官我才會提到一個而已嗎一個檢察官會提到一個而已嗎對不對"},{"start":4972.486,"end":4991.273,"text":"那你要人要送到哪裡?假設送台北,然後這個訪視,然後這個要去追蹤,這受監護人,一個地檢署要執行。那換言之在做這個報告的時候,你們到底有沒有什麼樣一個全盤的考量?我先聽你講完以後,我再來講我的看法。"},{"start":4994.044,"end":5006.381,"text":"就是法院假如說針對這個個案他有一些障礙的話那會認為說宣判的時候會給他一般會所監護多久"},{"start":5008.715,"end":5028.319,"text":"那這個在接下來就是判決之後的執行就是會請我們檢察官就是用比較適合的方式來看就這個個案是到底是在哪邊用什麼方式來執行會比較適合秘書長我跟你講檢察官也不是醫生"},{"start":5032.08,"end":5053.067,"text":"媽咪精神科醫生我們其實也都可以撿來玩太多太多的一個責任但到底這個怎麼辦你說我們上次在2022年修法這個刑法87條把原本監護期間5年增訂無延長次數的監護期間對不對連這個其實我都有意見的啦但是後來為了補這個整個社會安全網我手是舉起來是贊成的啦不然以我在"},{"start":5060.939,"end":5081.191,"text":"鄉間所看到的個案我看到有一個在我們地方上可以說是人民的精神導師導師啊什麼人有痛苦啊什麼人家庭有問題啊什麼改革啊都要找他告解都要找他排解要跟他說完之後他就這樣大家民眾就很高興那些大廟的主委有一天啊他晚上來拜訪我拜訪我"},{"start":5090.066,"end":5110.612,"text":"崩潰了,大哭,我嚇一跳。他是鄉民的神,怎麼可以對我這樣崩潰,大哭。他說我的孩子,要猥褻,要判三年,要把他關二十年,我聽到說網告有可能,這個猥褻也有可能,但是我第一個想到的就是監護處分,都要依啊,都要依啊。他的孩子,看到人要幫忙收領,"},{"start":5121.308,"end":5125.671,"text":"社會安全網不補起來又不行可是這一種又你一下子你刑法你就知道猥褻就不是那麼高嘛可是呢一屆一監護處分以後啊快20年"},{"start":5149.435,"end":5163.808,"text":"就一個動作殺人犯在處理起來殺人犯有這麼乖嗎?不乖嗎?沒那麼久啊所以這個我是就發現很困難的一個地方所以我為什麼特別去舉媽祖的地方我沒地方就跟他說媽你發生什麼事你媽祖我看你要怎麼辦媽祖你們現在廚藝機構夠嗎?你們還有嗎?媽祖地檢署、媽祖地區還有嗎?"},{"start":5171.778,"end":5188.107,"text":"馬祖只有那個那個他醫療是不夠的不夠齁是啊所以我要說的就是說好啦你現在司法精神病院大家都希望要經濟推動我說現況如果像那一種"},{"start":5189.851,"end":5213.867,"text":"這個就有點類似前陣子在講新北市那個鎧鎧鞍一樣嘛在新北 到底要付錢給新北而已啊後來在照顧照顧機構 要出洋的時候是台北市中間就出現問題啦那如果說你今天是媽祖地檢署的檢察官你本來一個月要去看一次的兩件你就無時了咧你媽祖你沒啊"},{"start":5217.634,"end":5239.396,"text":"如果你放在台北呢?假設那個受監護處分的人是在松德呢?所以監裁委員才會去跟你們講說你們這個跨區的處分這樣的一個安置的問題啊你們會出現很大的問題啊第一個,前兩關搞不好也心不甘情不願了前兩關講說阿楊,你為什麼不叫我來?"},{"start":5240.814,"end":5251.852,"text":"第二個就是說你整個後續追蹤醫療的一個困難還有整個社區的一個機制你怎麼樣去完善這個都缺乏我們現在是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":5256.704,"end":5274.079,"text":"為了補足說大家社會要求你整個社會安全網你怎麼樣去把它做一個補起來所以我一直都認為今天張偉排這個是很有意義的所以我在講說那至少監察院現在跟你們提出的這些事項你們做出了哪一些精進的作為我想請教這個要補充"},{"start":5280.141,"end":5306.218,"text":"這部分其實我們對暫時安置跟監護處分的這部分事實上現在是進入到第二期第二期那我們有一個標準的一個流程那另外我們也做一個精神就是一個精神的鑑定、個案評估包括轉嫌其實這些都是我們有完善的一個做一個措施了那這邊都規劃好了那我們希望最主要還是能夠"},{"start":5306.958,"end":5307.138,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5324.557,"end":5350.232,"text":"其實怎麼樣去建制比較完善的一個受案的一個制度還有去追蹤這個流程我相信這個是社會大眾期待的因為社會大眾認為說我不想陷於這樣的一個恐懼啊如果說打擊犯罪或者司法審判你司法院要審判 我想你都做得到啦打擊犯罪不中你都做得到但是你法務部要管的事情就是那麼多"},{"start":5351.132,"end":5372.026,"text":"這個也是你的業務的一環我們也期待你要重拾國人對整個司法制度的一個信心連這個讓國人免於恐懼不然現在你的責任所以不是只有前端打擊犯罪而已連後端這一些社會安全網你怎麼樣去把它做一個建制所以我是認為因為部長先剛上任我沒有要求太多但至少"},{"start":5379.011,"end":5388.031,"text":"我看連監察院跟你們所提出來這幾項那個確實也是重點啦你們特別要再加強一下啦因為這些社會"},{"start":5389.212,"end":5413.742,"text":"每一個地方都會碰到所以大家不願意把它讓它浮上檯面只有個案出現的時候大家才去討論否則這個問題很大我也不能去講說整個社會安全網的一個建制裡面碰到一些個案就會覺得說這對人身自由的一個剝奪個案常常會跟這個社會安全網大家這整個制度裡面會產生有衝突的一個地方怎麼樣去調和但重點是說"},{"start":5417.123,"end":5445.971,"text":"確實是人力、物力、剛我提案的、收案的這個整個機制還有整個個案事後的那個整個整個處分裡面、監護處分裡面如何去做一個追蹤尤其是我剛提到那個部分你那個跨區那個整個跨區如何去安置的一個部分這個其實都是值得我們法務部要再去做更"},{"start":5446.611,"end":5472.926,"text":"這部分公園報告我們其實就是用分流的一個方式來分級的一個管理嘛那像我們司法精神病院的話醫院病房的話其實我們那個收治的一個強度照顧的強度會比較強因為的確是對這些比較有中高度社會危險性的這些受監護人我們要比較好的一個照顧那這次有比較多的一些的資源給他那如果說比較輕的話那我們就是甚至門診就可以了"},{"start":5473.166,"end":5475.848,"text":"我相信這一塊在立法院大家會給你們支持啦但是你們也要做出更好的成績我們最怕的就是說大家跟你們集齊"},{"start":5501.175,"end":5517.512,"text":"你告訴個案出來以後又變成又破功以個案來看全貌也沒有道理啦也沒有道理啦但是你們真的要加強的地方還很多啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員那接下來我們請省發會委員發言"},{"start":5538.776,"end":5541.737,"text":"主席我們請鄭部長部長委員早部長早剛才我聽到前面的委員有在關心有相關透過手機訊號取得人流特性分析的問題"},{"start":5563.382,"end":5580.508,"text":"有委員提出個案來討論那我想這個問題現在如果說這個現在這個議題大家國人關心的話我就是希望說我們是不是就針對這個現在目前相關的這些"},{"start":5582.898,"end":5594.208,"text":"不管是公務機關或者是商業活動有關於這個透過手機訊號來做這個人流分析相關的人流分析我想有相當多的個案那這個我這邊看到這個是公開的新聞稿這個新北市政府有關他們在宣傳他們的這個耶誕城"},{"start":5607.747,"end":5611.311,"text":"這個新北葉旦城的交通大數據他們也提到說他們利用手機訊號等等大數據資料來即時監控"},{"start":5615.083,"end":5635.821,"text":"那我想這個跟剛剛前面委員所提到的案例應該是相當的類似所以是不是請部長能夠一併這些案件一併了解好不好是 剛才委員有提到手機的電位事實上它是沒有內容的它跟我們通訊監察必須要內容的這些談話的內容那這個是單純的數據的分析"},{"start":5640.666,"end":5655.924,"text":"對,既然國人有疑慮也有委員在委員會提出來那我們就這個問題我們要做了解啊到底新北市政府的這個他們所做的這個交通大廈他們所提出的他們自己宣傳的說利用google還有這個利用手機訊號"},{"start":5657.605,"end":5675.872,"text":"來分析這個人,他們還做出這個人流分析的統計啦,他的年齡,他的這個白天上班啦,他的是年輕人還是學生他這個都有分析啊,不是像他們所說的只有昨天他們新北市政府說他們去個資化之後都只有會場人數滯留時間來回方向"},{"start":5678.433,"end":5701.761,"text":"他們自己的網頁裡面就新北耶誕城人流分析就不只這些資料阿他也有年齡、性別、職業等等相關的分析資料所以這個我沒有說對或不對啦齁我只是說這個顯然是相同的分析方式嘛跟剛剛委員所提的提的是相同的分析方式那就如果這個就能夠一併了解一併調查好不好還有"},{"start":5702.481,"end":5723.978,"text":"不只是這兩個案子啦所有現在目前在商業上面利用這個手機利用這個手機訊號取得的這些人現在有很多的商業應用在商業市場上進行的活動調查他都要透過這個方式嘛這部分大家到底有沒有相關的違法是不是能夠整個一併調查好不好"},{"start":5724.438,"end":5746.606,"text":"是 這個是屬於那個數據的一個分析 這個是應該 這個我們再來做一個就是一併處理了 這個顯然不是個案 這個是新北市政府等等相關的這些商業單位都常常在做的這個手機的訊號的人流分析大數據的人流分析 這個部分一併了解"},{"start":5750.678,"end":5770.102,"text":"接下來我們回到今天的主題有關於暫行安置與監護處分的部分我們2022年1月有進行立法院針對暫行安置的部分有刑事訴訟法的修正還有監護處分的部分針對刑法87條、98條、保安處分執行法都在"},{"start":5775.754,"end":5794.649,"text":"這個2022年也就是兩年前的1月做了這個修正對不對部長那做這個修正但是我在這個我從我們的統計連線上面來找大概只能找到到111年以前的這個相關的這個辦理保安處分的情形就是有關這個統計數有關監護有關於這個監護處分的部分有人數的統計數字"},{"start":5803.188,"end":5817.303,"text":"那這個但是他也到111年為止所以我想請問部長是不是能夠現在有沒有同仁能夠提供有關於這個我們這個新制上路之後這個目前被判這個監護處分"},{"start":5819.6,"end":5839.717,"text":"跟這個暫行安置他的這個處分的人數先在手上有沒有資料跟委員報告那個暫行安置今年到5月17號為止是有8人暫行暫行安置有8人那那個監護處分這部分到目前就是到5月17號有224人224人監護處分監護是224人"},{"start":5847.947,"end":5872.76,"text":"那這個因為我們修法之後吼這個這個有關於監護處分吼他的這個這個最高的這個可以延長的年限吼他的這個變成沒有上限了對沒有上限那請問部長你們這邊有沒有統計目前這個我們所累計吼我們目前監護處分最長是多少年"},{"start":5874.592,"end":5895.081,"text":"目前我是沒有這個資料,我另外再提供給委員現在改成沒有上限了,所以現在這個受監護處分的目前最高的年限本來是五年嘛,後來改成五加三加一而且無限,所以我想了解說目前受這種"},{"start":5896.261,"end":5917.374,"text":"最長的這部分我再提供給委員請部長這個了解之後再提供資料給本席那這個我現在因為這個新法上路所以這個新制上路之後我們想要了解有關這個暫行安置這個"},{"start":5920.066,"end":5936.598,"text":"我們是依這個檢察官依個案認定還是他有一個一致的統一一致的見解類似像量刑系統這樣還有一個統一的說什麼樣的情況之下要做暫行安置還是說完全沒有任何標準就由檢察官自行就個案認定"},{"start":5937.558,"end":5962.277,"text":"這跟委員報告這個是依據刑訴訴訟第121條之一之一它裡面就是有刑法第19條第一項第二項的的一個情侶就是他精神有障礙或者心智精神障礙或心智缺陷他沒辦法去辨別他的行為的違反性等或者是顯著的降低降低那個行為的變化而且他最主要他有攻擊性他有危害公共安全"},{"start":5962.797,"end":5982.487,"text":"那這邊在偵審中的話在偵查審理中的話就檢察官就會依申請那如果審理中法院法官也會依職權來對那我在檢察官提出申請的他有沒有標準他是不是必須要進行是不是符合符合剛剛所講的精神障礙心智缺陷他行為能這個這個我們"},{"start":5985.268,"end":5999.754,"text":"這個沒有對說,因為這個我現在只是想了解說目前我們的狀況是是由檢察官就個案自行去認定還是因為你在這個監護處分的部分它是有評估小組的有評估小組"},{"start":6000.314,"end":6014.858,"text":"各位幫這裡面有那個一個專家的一個資料庫我們會請專家來做一個鑑定就是說關於這邊要循環19那個那個精神障或心智缺陷的情形我們會做要做一個一個精神會做鑑定嗎?我們會做一個鑑定"},{"start":6017.339,"end":6031.674,"text":"我們有個專家知道這部分有我們目前檢察官要做這個要專家來建立因為檢察官沒辦法去判斷這個是不是有達到那個他要提出這個暫行安置的申請"},{"start":6032.967,"end":6047.219,"text":"有經過鑑定嗎?要做一個鑑定說是不是在一個有合乎到19條跟希望19條第1項第2項的這些的一個情形所以我們現在目前現行是有經過鑑定才提出申請嗎?對"},{"start":6050.282,"end":6061.64,"text":"那這部分也要,不然檢察官不是醫生沒有那個專業好好好,這樣子我就了解啦,因為我了解說這個監護處分的部分他目前是有經過一個評估小組齁"},{"start":6064.216,"end":6086.973,"text":"有依法有評估小組的評估但是在暫行安置裡面目前並沒有我們請那個黃次長來次長跟委員報告一下那監護處分的部分當然按照我們法律規定它要有評估小組的評估但是委員你提到的是這個暫時安置因為暫時安置它是發生在案子"},{"start":6087.373,"end":6107.69,"text":"發生當下他很緊急的要向法院申請他還有一些這個法院規定的20小時的問題他比較積壓的規定嘛所以在現實實務上我們當然如果可以的話我們可以緊急的進行評估如果有些醫療資源比較欠缺的話我們就沒有辦法進行緊急評估的話就由個案的甲官去認定符不符合我們暫行安置的要件"},{"start":6108.25,"end":6134.044,"text":"這個比較符合我的理解不可能每一個案子都是去進行鑑定鑑定之後才申請所以這個部分我是認為說雖然說法律沒有明定但是是不是有關暫行安置的部分我們可以參酌監護處分的方式有這樣子相關的評估小組來進行以避免"},{"start":6134.904,"end":6135.024,"text":"那這個有關齁這個"},{"start":6150.951,"end":6172.044,"text":"現在不管是進行暫時暫行的安置或者是監護處處分現在現在因為我們這個這個這個他相關的這個安置安置的場所有有重疊的部分這個這個有關這個監護處分的部分他是司法精神醫院"},{"start":6173.728,"end":6186.826,"text":"司法精神醫院、醫院、醫療院所監護處分的部分另外還有其他的包括令身心障礙機構其他適當監護場所甚至盡心照顧等等這些都包括"},{"start":6188.007,"end":6209.62,"text":"那我因為他有重複的所以我想要了解就是說目前暫行安置的受暫行安置的跟監護處分的這些被處分者他們是有分開處置還是在相同在有可能在同一醫療院所或同一個共同安置有這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":6215.198,"end":6215.538,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6246.179,"end":6252.384,"text":"維護保護公共安全的人力跟設備的標準這部分請法務部提供給本席好不好好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行詢答有請鄭部長麻煩部長上台"},{"start":6276.021,"end":6300.101,"text":"委員長部長好在詢問你有關於我們現在監護處分制度的相關問題之前我有一個疑問想要請教一下部長我想請教一下你有聽過這段話嗎20歲到40歲就是有些是小草有些當然是太陽花的佔了活動的六成"},{"start":6300.962,"end":6320.395,"text":"我們用手機去看他的年齡差不多六成那些年輕人的臉孔民進黨很久沒看到這些人跟原來的小草我們有去比對過他跟原來這個在五一七民進黨樓下的那些小草訊號比較起來也是不同人"},{"start":6321.155,"end":6331.551,"text":"那就是說小草也沒有跑那這批人跟上次我們的選舉1月13號之前的選前之夜比對也沒有關係然後這段話誰說的"},{"start":6335.256,"end":6363.497,"text":"這個我不清楚你不清楚其實你一定清楚只是你不方便講而已我幫你講民進黨的這個政策會執行長王逸傳講的當時他電視節目講主持人很驚訝現在進步到這種地步可以這樣比喔然後他說因為你去對他的什麼基地台訊號就對得到我要請教一下部長我們在打擊犯罪的時候資通訊科技會用得到吧"},{"start":6364.324,"end":6385.132,"text":"我會用得到我們有辦法像民進黨這麼厲害 比對到分項年齡層、太陽花的佔比、年輕人的佔比跟選前之夜某個集會跟某個集會的佔比、年輕人比較 哪些人有來哪些人沒來 我們法務部做得到嗎"},{"start":6389.361,"end":6398.187,"text":"法務部做得到嗎?你現在資通信科技做得到嗎?我告訴你啊 資通信科技很大 跟民進黨多學習啦"},{"start":6399.161,"end":6421.247,"text":"你講這麼棒很偉大欸比對到這種程度啊你今天如果說今天我們去查幫派組織對不對今天幫派組織在某個上里面出現了多少人去比對他的訊號然後幫派組織在某個地方開紅門宴對不對那個所有的那個旗袍禮服然後紅地毯走過去有嗎不是嗎之前很多這個狀況對不對有沒有"},{"start":6423.948,"end":6444.186,"text":"以前啊不是有一些幫派他們會有一些大型的集會啊法務部不會說沒有這些集會吧有沒有有沒有掌握啊以前這些集會有沒有掌握啊這個會會這個有修法會會掌握嘛你執政之所在嘛沒錯嘛對不對部長這個這個我們會依法來處理當然嘛"},{"start":6444.887,"end":6470.055,"text":"那我想請問 那可不可以用這個工具不過他那個 剛才委員有提到的那一部分當然也有 不解散 有不解散的我們就會沒關係 我要這樣講那如果說單純的集會 這部分我們不是 我們法務部在不是啊 我跟你講 我當然不是說集會 我說幫派啦幫派的一些所謂的活動齁 那你們今天這個犯罪針防齁那警政單位齁 你有沒有辦法比對這件事情"},{"start":6472.161,"end":6491.717,"text":"我是鼓勵你喔鼓勵你效法民進黨民進黨很厲害能比對的我們是依法行政我第二個要請教你喔這樣比對有沒有問題啊這個是屬於手機的數據的分析嘛對手機分析通報法我們是主要是規範中華電信可以提供這些資料給民進黨中央嗎"},{"start":6493.683,"end":6516.753,"text":"可以嗎手機基地台可以提供嗎電信的基地台可以提供這些資料給他嗎包括年齡分析喔包括517在這個所謂的那個青島東路出現的人跟你民進黨這個113選前之夜出現的人到底哪些人來哪些人沒來裡面年齡層分布我們的電信的基地台可以提供這些資訊給民進黨嗎可不可以"},{"start":6517.967,"end":6530.923,"text":"就法治論你告訴我可不可以這個在通報法裡面並沒有規範這個問題問你可不可以嘛可以是不是如果說法律沒有禁止那我們非常好我鼓勵還不住啊"},{"start":6532.014,"end":6558.175,"text":"法務部在這邊跟我講合以啊沒問題好棒棒啊資通訊科技可以這樣子去老大哥去監控我們的名是沒有問題的我今天聽到部長你背書啦沒有我跟委員報告我們法務部我們是依法行政我當然知道你們法務部不會幹這種事啦好不好我就問嘛法務部會不會做這種事會不會做不會吧你已經講依法行政你們依的法就沒有不能做這個事嘛不會你跟我講你們依的法可以做這個事嗎可以嗎"},{"start":6561.485,"end":6588.881,"text":"部長 你停了五秒鐘 我知道你很為難好啦 我不再為難你啦因為我答案 我已經跟委員報告過了沒關係啦 我跟你講 我不為難你啦你也停了很久可是我要跟部長講一件事情今天我也不是 我是提醒部長你作為民進黨的 政府的法律守門人民眾的資通訊的保障也是法務部很重要的一個職責"},{"start":6591.621,"end":6616.19,"text":"如果說今天你竟然跟我講說這個沒有違法那抱歉齁,我不能接受啦我不能接受,那意思是民進黨愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹不能因為他是執政黨,我們的標準就有點寬鬆沒關係,部長,不為難你我接下來要請教您齁我目前全台灣監護處分的人數有多少目前224人那我們機構內執行監護處分有多少人"},{"start":6621.85,"end":6635.546,"text":"186人 收治在29家醫療機構司法精神病院預計2025年底建置完成以目前現有司法精神病房的規劃是怎樣?"},{"start":6637.588,"end":6665.306,"text":"那目前的話就是已經在完成收治的已經是南部的我們有規劃4個司法精神病房那南部已經在收治了那北部的是預計在今年9月會收治那東部的是也是9月會收治那比較慢的是中部的是在115年預計115年收治那至於司法精神病房這部分也是115年預計會完工收治"},{"start":6667.537,"end":6669.199,"text":"本月19日基隆南光醫院逃脫監護處分人整整逃亡4天"},{"start":6681.763,"end":6697.317,"text":"一路從基隆、臺北、最後在新北被找到目前基隆市已經針對醫院延誤通報5小時進行懲處當然這次監護處分人跑出來的責任醫院看起來是比較大"},{"start":6698.078,"end":6720.203,"text":"但是我們的郭次長也說司法精神病院病房落成之前那各地檢署為了收治監護處分人在轄內醫療機構收治安全程度上可能會有落差那我想請問有沒有了解一下這次處分人會脫逃的原因還有相關的一些改進的措施可不可以跟大家說明一下"},{"start":6720.646,"end":6746.983,"text":"那這部分我們還在進行來做一個解決因為目前還沒有結果因為這還剛發生的事情也發生了半個月了啦 對不對將近嘛那這部分我們也是會要求那個醫院處所來做一個改善我覺得齁 這個事情也不能完全就是說交代醫院處所改善啦我覺得法務部本身"},{"start":6748.023,"end":6775.682,"text":"今天作為一個主管機關把原因找出來很重要嘛 對不對這個我們已經通令我們已經請那個各地檢署再有關你再收治的這些醫療機構這部分的安全維護的一個設施是不是有到位我們也是在要求他們來做一個解決一個檢視盤點那我希望法務部你還是要把整個檢討報告就當作一個專案的一個小組啦相關的檢討報告"},{"start":6777.288,"end":6796.767,"text":"原因、然後發生的過程、然後甚至將來怎麼樣去防治、防處、然後什麼防範那不要讓類似事件發生因為每一次個案的發生其實當然民眾會產生心理的恐懼可是今天這個案發生我們就要從個案當中去學取經驗嘛把沒有做好的地方把它做好不是嗎 對不對"},{"start":6798.192,"end":6798.933,"text":"接下來我們請謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":6834.984,"end":6839.985,"text":"主席,我請保證及經濟事務麻煩部長還有警政署代表保證好,給我站我是在這裡先請那邊侮辱一下"},{"start":6863.443,"end":6872.499,"text":"馬英九做拜登的總統﹐他沒有對他在野黨做敬禮敬鳳﹐當然我在中相會跟他說﹐總統你如果做這個事情﹐是對台灣很大的傷害﹐"},{"start":6876.886,"end":6887.251,"text":"他說他保證他絕對不會對在野黨做政體金融我說這樣最好因為你今天可以對在野黨做政體金融相對你就可以對東來的同志跟你意見不一樣甚至他還是不一樣的派系你還是一樣的做這個政體金融是不是這樣所以北黨國民黨的執政完全不去對著民進黨"},{"start":6906.218,"end":6927.446,"text":"來做所謂的整體進行那麼到了民進黨執政之後正四年離空一九年你的好朋友我們的情人在三月十八離空一九年的三月十八挑戰蔡英文登記總統初選我要跟我們的國務委員說這很重要也很誇張"},{"start":6937.381,"end":6942.145,"text":"請問你當時是怎樣?請問總統不能用國家的機器對付我請問總統不能再用盟軍對付我這句話我聽起來很辛苦因為在他初選後的後面我拿到的資料我為什麼要請經濟事務出來搞到"},{"start":6967.83,"end":6970.532,"text":"今天你所謂的在政敵通信裡面可以去監控人民這是非常可怕老實說今天你心想機會如果今天你繼續用這個手段來對付台灣人、對付在野黨甚至控制公務人員這是非常惡劣的訴訟為什麼呢"},{"start":6999.124,"end":7008.347,"text":"因為在19年 落選到三月十八 挑戰蔡英文的時候 她的民調是贏蔡總統26%至28% 儲算登記了是45天就要比賽了結果 一言再言 讓你言兩次 也不可能在兩個半月內逆轉這26%的一時多 用什麼逆轉"},{"start":7030.083,"end":7032.084,"text":"因為中間的所屬的民調他就是所有每一處執法我請問經濟事務局的董林你覺得大過的刑事局?沒有你不罰?不罰一套通信系統是我們的當局犯罪在立法院執法的時候刑事局是第一套在刑事局採用的"},{"start":7060.069,"end":7068.913,"text":"所以只要你若是台獨提到手機﹖很快我們就能監控他的行動那麼這個國安單位呢﹖夠我看到﹖在半截韓國禄舉辦一個活動﹖現場有十八萬的群眾﹖設立﹖進入這個基地台後﹖對MSC處理﹖入來告處理﹖"},{"start":7089.461,"end":7105.933,"text":"處理了要轉換一個基地台這個基地台的範圍如果是3公里如果這樣它的設定 譬如說12分鐘例如在這個基地台停留15分鐘以上標示 例如來參加這個活動他是這樣控制的所以民進黨在轉移焦點 他說我沒有啊 這新北市在辦活動也有"},{"start":7117.355,"end":7129.841,"text":"前百次是我們辦大型的活動,就是說國家的經費,是利用這樣在感覺說有很多人,統計人數,這不是,他們這個活動已經針對你手機了,我同時是經費的手機了,不是我個人的名字,所以說這手機要找一個80歲的老人來在這裡,不是,那是我媽媽的名字,南省、陸省幾歲?"},{"start":7147.574,"end":7153.624,"text":"以定期的戶籍大力度這是國安單位嚴重概念經濟事務原本就頗有這個作業但是是不是可以調到這樣我們不知道"},{"start":7162.421,"end":7176.973,"text":"所以 立法院在最後呢 比到這種大數據的分拆之後 又在民調裡面 過程裡面 有很多黑暗的東西這是現在的東京 聖殿下 立總統 新手機械如果今天你的民進黨的政策會 跟我們的台書記 把這些東西公佈出來不然你不覺得台灣的前途堪憂嗎齁"},{"start":7191.943,"end":7195.464,"text":"不是說這有合法沒合法的,這是絕對沒合法的絕對沒合法尤其經濟術應該很清楚我們如果統一法用這套系統統一時的平時局我們有一個歐盛局長姓歐"},{"start":7219.605,"end":7222.207,"text":"不要理會國安黨 這個是個手在叛讀這裡的訴苦 這個是個手但是每一張大型的活動公務人員的手機啊 有進來停留15分鐘以上 停留30分鐘以上 停留45分鐘以上 都一清理車他可以對你做政體監控所以這是一個很嚴肅的課題"},{"start":7248.868,"end":7260.317,"text":"所以補充我要跟你說的就是關於這種問題你不能說有也好沒也好,要很嚴肅,有機會總統如果問他的時候你要告訴他你要說那個食糧界在說你過去薪水有機會,來補考人家可以去講這個數字"},{"start":7271.465,"end":7283.989,"text":"你會記得嗎?我之前在媒體在講的時候在分架的時候,很多人跟我說不可能啦,怎麼會有這個事情一直到我們疫情大爆發,芒果一般發出60萬通的簡訊,你會記得嗎?那個時候人家跟我說,啊!都跟你說得對,本來因為我們看到有的事情,我們不便在台面上說嘛為什麼你什麼人經過芒果那四口冷凍,那60萬通的簡訊怎麼發出來?"},{"start":7302.977,"end":7310.42,"text":"這所有本來就都在的,國安單位要拿誰是可以拿,但是你不應該拿出來做政敵用途啊!這非常惡劣!經紀人你請回答,不然我頂著來,頂著拜,因為你沒有來啊!我有探討這個..."},{"start":7326.597,"end":7341.534,"text":"詐騙匯款的問題,金管匯到你們出張,那天不是他們出張啦,有來,我不知道金管匯到哪有看你們匯董去演繹啊,就是說我們匯款處理齁,要有一個認證機啊"},{"start":7345.393,"end":7372.25,"text":"有的人放便宜大家開始要花錢都很謹慎甚至人家扣錢、親人扣錢、警察扣錢啊你不要啦單錢花去了喔兩百萬花出來啊他才開始想說讓我這樣我問我女兒我問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女兒問我女"},{"start":7373.63,"end":7376.859,"text":"有一個認證期 金管委說要回答你們 大家重新來這裡做一個報告 有沒有跟你們回答討論啊"},{"start":7383.061,"end":7397.187,"text":"這個委員提的這個意見齁 這個是屬於金管會主政的業務那這部分我們是 但是當局犯罪時你如果你要提供一些辦案的訴苦 跟他要定幾點鐘或是多少金額 啊不要去封他就金融特殊這樣情形下這個法不可以完畢 而且還可以檢焦詐騙的案件啊"},{"start":7408.12,"end":7414.404,"text":"因為這牽扯到那個金融的秩序的一個問題,我們還是尊重金管會的一個...我知啦,阿你愛提,就是說"},{"start":7418.431,"end":7432.957,"text":"習近平的金額大概在多少到多少?什麼樣的金額?不然有的人跟我們一樣,企業跟人說要調錢要入票有的沒的,他現在金額還要用這個做理由?所以他要花多少時間、那個認證期,還不去放在這個商業的特殊、金融的特殊,如果可以幫助我們打擊犯罪、放置詐騙,我是在說什麼?他有說要重新來"},{"start":7447.318,"end":7461.223,"text":"報告 接您 要延期嘛 我現在問說他說合理延期啊目前還要再 還沒有不是啦 這您在主動應該是前 是因為這部分我告訴你 保證 就是"},{"start":7462.711,"end":7472.398,"text":"針對這個犯罪的形態及內容及模式 他們比較不懂但是針對金融及最高的特殊的威嚇 他們比較懂 我們比較不懂所以這就是看保安 你們一定要磨合了"},{"start":7480.283,"end":7489.626,"text":"來到本會來重申說這真重要因為我現在這樣提出之後各方的意見都覺得這個會判處理後面有一個兩小時、三小時或是一小時的冷靜期對方那個會期那個中和可以去捏錢這樣因為很多人是集會了就換會了比較保安不會付啊"},{"start":7504.7,"end":7505.861,"text":"下一位陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":7540.492,"end":7544.473,"text":"好 主席吳釗瑋我們請鄭部長好 麻煩鄭部長好 部長早委員好部長早在前兩週啦齁前兩週我們這個監護處分人從基隆這個某醫院脫逃的案例那在整個大台北地區流竄4天後落網短短幾天的時間我們也看到"},{"start":7568.118,"end":7588.354,"text":"除了警力、權力棄捕一時間大量的新聞報導情況之下也在網路上流竄了他的行蹤地點那我想都讓民眾感到相當的恐慌那幸好最後在沒有發生遺憾的情況之下成功將這個男子棄捕歸案"},{"start":7589.255,"end":7613.852,"text":"那今天特別感謝吳釗偉所排的這個專報不但是對於先前脫逃的這個事件做一個檢討也能夠對於我們日前暫行安置與監護處分制度的執行狀況來做一個詳加檢討那我想不論是暫行安置還是監護處分都是為了要兼顧刑事和醫療的需求也是我們社會安全網重要的一環"},{"start":7614.733,"end":7631.791,"text":"但在保障人權的前提之下應該還是要極力避免脫逃的這種狀況再發生那我想請教部長我們現在對於暫行安置或是監護處分在執行的過程中這種防逃的機制應該要如何來落實"},{"start":7635.041,"end":7654.274,"text":"這部分我們在規劃的時候我們在加強這個安全維護的設施跟人員的訓練這部分我們是會落實那我們在指定目前是司法精神醫院還沒有建制完成只有一個司法精神病房"},{"start":7654.734,"end":7680.834,"text":"那我們目前的這些的安置的這些收治的一些醫療處所我們是會著重看他的整個一個設備跟安全譬如說他的門禁的一個管制以及他那個萬有發生的這些的事件的時候他如何去啟動這個防逃的這些逃出去的一個機制那上次基隆那個應該是在放風的時候"},{"start":7681.872,"end":7682.692,"text":"這部分我們會再重整"},{"start":7700.8,"end":7721.652,"text":"這也是提醒啦就請我們法務部這邊就對於這方面應該做提升那我剛剛聽應該部長您也有想法啦那我希望應該要落實那我們從這個基隆的個案來看醫院是不是有違反這個保安處分的相關法規有嗎這部分的是"},{"start":7722.432,"end":7724.572,"text":"對於收容醫療機構的安全,我想這種外衣介護的部分請教部長。"},{"start":7744.616,"end":7745.396,"text":"這部分我請那個我們那個房次長來待會回答"},{"start":7772.953,"end":7785.41,"text":"委員好那有關於那個介護人員我按照我們相關規定我們介護出所我們是得設介護人員那現在如果沒有設的話我們另外也規定可以由這個介護機構他去僱用相關的介護人員來進行介護"},{"start":7788.814,"end":7793.238,"text":"因為他在介護的過程裡面他如果不清楚這個他介護的這個病患是什麼樣的人的話"},{"start":7806.732,"end":7806.932,"text":"好,那另外"},{"start":7833.257,"end":7860.491,"text":"另外市長您先請回那根據這個《精神衛生法》第52條第一項的規定在這個精神照護機構對於病患擅自離開機構時應該要通知家屬及保護人那病患行蹤不明時應即刻通知地方主管機關的警察機構來協助協詢但是我們就是剛剛講的部分在通報方面似乎是延誤了4個小時才通報"},{"start":7861.471,"end":7890.585,"text":"那這4個小時就足夠讓這個病患的行蹤難以追查那當時也造成這個基隆附近的這些縣市在學校方面都禁止這個訪客進入了嘛所以這個我想請教部長就是說在這個應急通知應該在多久的時間之內就要通知這第一個問題那第二個問題就是說收容機構和當地的警察機關之間通報的管道是否暢通"},{"start":7893.168,"end":7915.028,"text":"這發現的話我們是要求是即時通知即時通知即時即時馬上就要通報了都要通報所以沒有時間的限制沒有時間的那個好 那個我們目前的這個管道有沒有暢通跟警察機關目前這是這個是管道是這個通知的話我們是第一時間就會通報那個警方那地檢署也會通"},{"start":7918.038,"end":7946.031,"text":"跟委員報告目前各家醫院都跟在地的這個警察局其實都有保持聯絡對所以就像剛剛部長講的這個應該當下病人不加離開就應該通知在地的警察單位以上可是這個部分我還是強調啦像基隆這個案子他雖然是委外契約的單位醫療機構我們還是要跟他們這個這個告知就是在通報上應該去適時的去檢討啦因為有時候他可能這個"},{"start":7947.532,"end":7961.664,"text":"主管更換或是怎樣會不會導致說這個病患在脫逃的時候沒有第一時間去通報所以才會衍生這個延誤通報的問題這個部分也請我們這個相關單位應該要重視那再來就是我們"},{"start":7962.882,"end":7990.391,"text":"這次的這個個案追捕當中有人提出這個監護處分人的部分他公布的照片和實際的這個長相有所差距恐怕會造成難以辨認那法務部這邊我們是不是可以來演你說在這個病患就醫的過程裡面每一個階段是不是有一個這個不定時的拍照的這個動作來存檔那以便不時之需有沒有可能"},{"start":7991.644,"end":8015.472,"text":"這個是拍照這部分是有會涉及到我們各自就是肖像權的一個問題那這部分我們再來研議是不是可以設計一個可行性的方式因為這個法制上是不是可以有辦法去做到就像委員提到就是每一個時間就給他拍一張那個存檔起來那這部分我們再司法性我們再來研究"},{"start":8016.092,"end":8031.505,"text":"好 那我想我們負責執行的那個先請回我們負責執行的這個檢察官平時業務已經都非常的繁重那部長您也是檢察官出身可能有相關的這個經驗可以分享"},{"start":8032.065,"end":8054.596,"text":"那依據法務部的資料來看這個每年我們在監護處分執行的個案大概是200名那在保安處分執行法第48條裡面有規定檢察官對於受監護處分之人與指揮執行後至少每個月應該要去視察一次並製作紀錄那我想也是對於個案的這個情況能夠隨時掌握的必要措施"},{"start":8055.376,"end":8078.892,"text":"但譬如像這個上次的這個基隆案例來看北檢的這個檢察官執行送往這個基隆機構那現在又將這個病患最後送到現在是送到高雄的司法這個精神病院來執行若機構分布在各地會不會讓檢察官需要長途跋涉那在視察上要花費比較多的時間"},{"start":8080.894,"end":8101.313,"text":"這個問題我們會不會有什麼方式可以來解決或是用一些線上的這個遠距離的方式來處理可以嗎這部分我們再來研究不過我們到目前為止我們是要求就是檢討每月就是要去訪視一次那以後精神病房它是分布在北部南東那精神醫院這部分設置的"},{"start":8102.094,"end":8102.114,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8127.111,"end":8145.633,"text":"在這個我們司法精神病院方面我想請教部長一下就是我們目前好像有在規劃未來有可能會建置北中南東都有的這個司法精神病房因為現在好像只有在南部有而已嘛已經在收治了對那這個部分"},{"start":8146.374,"end":8167.405,"text":"比如說未來有可能在東部的哪一個地點有沒有可能這部分我們就不方便沒關係那可不可以讓我知道說我們設置這個司法精神病房的它的設置的這個要件要符合到什麼樣的條件才有可能在那個點來設置有沒有可能"},{"start":8169.564,"end":8196.585,"text":"這個部分會後再給我一份資料看還是在我們私下再討論一下那我也期待說因為各區域的這個司法精神病院建置完成之後能夠妥善因應相關這個監護的需求來讓我們這個相關的病患有一個比較好而且比較方便的一個照顧的地方也能夠期待他們在這個照顧過程裡面他們身體的健康狀況也能夠慢慢的獲得一個一個照顧跟好轉"},{"start":8197.957,"end":8226.426,"text":"這個部分也請我們法務部跟衛福部好好的去思考這個問題好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來我們請林思明委員進行詢問好 謝謝主席主席我先請衛福部的代表"},{"start":8227.558,"end":8251.677,"text":"請衛福部代表是心理健康師的李秉長你記證是不是?是,謝謝委員所以我首先請教你衛福部強化社會安全網第二期計畫的重點包含了補強精神衛生社區體系與社區支援支持的服務還有設置社區心理衛生中心"},{"start":8252.518,"end":8255.321,"text":"目前依照這個第二期的計劃計劃執行的成效是如何?"},{"start":8273.258,"end":8297.535,"text":"跟委員報告那大概剛剛委員講的這個71處的行為中心大概目前我們全國已經佈建了48處那應該到明年71處應該可以達成目標今年是要達到53處我們都超對目標來做那補助各縣市的這個關懷訪視人力那我們也都朝分年來補助禁用大概目前的禁用率以今年的這個補助人力來看的話"},{"start":8298.155,"end":8318.357,"text":"我們都要求地方政府禁用人力的目標數要達到補助人力的85%那有關於司法精神醫院跟病房的一個部件的進度就誠如法務部的書面報告一樣我們希望在明年二期計畫結束前能夠完成醫院300床跟病房180床的建置以上"},{"start":8319.157,"end":8338.41,"text":"我想這個就應該行政院是在2020年就召開了跨部會的一個會議就是由台灣高檢署來編列34.6億元的預算規劃在全台設置6處各30床的司法精神病院有180床"},{"start":8340.27,"end":8347.963,"text":"那另外成立一個達300床的司法精神病院目標是在明年總共要達到480床"},{"start":8351.069,"end":8374.66,"text":"那目前整個預算的執行率是如何?就是我們總共那時候是編列的34.6億元你這個預算的執行的成效是怎樣?是逐年編列還是怎麼樣?還是一次就到位?跟委員報告我們就是分年來編列預算來執行因為每個醫院他有分期的進度病房也是分階段所以你現在講說規劃在全台設置6處180床那目前執行的幾床?"},{"start":8380.023,"end":8395.365,"text":"跟委員報告目前已經有南部地區55床已經開放全數在使用那預計今年會完成北區跟東區明年完成中部的那就可以達到原先設定目標180床的規模在明年就可以達到"},{"start":8396.747,"end":8419.484,"text":"另外那個是另外300床的精神病院這部分目前也如期在施作那我們也是朝明年完工啟用的目標明年絕對可以完工我們希望目前有缺工缺料問題我們在克服因為我們看到媒體有報導他說這個司法精神醫院原定是在今年3月要接木"},{"start":8420.525,"end":8424.628,"text":"有,跟委員報告目前已經都一一克服我們跟法務部還有在行政院的指導下已經一一克服"},{"start":8438.556,"end":8439.276,"text":"目前有提問的我們都一一克服"},{"start":8461.266,"end":8478.433,"text":"是,統一克服,如何克服可以請教一下嗎?會不會這種問題一直到時候你建好之後又有人來抗爭?因為據我的經驗,因為我新竹這邊也有一個就是你們精神病院的設置就是你剛才講的那個精神病床的設置,社區的這些精神醫療中心"},{"start":8480.954,"end":8506.57,"text":"結果那所有的住戶全部在反彈是是是造成很難設置啊是所以這個問題就是你現在預期要去見精神病床精神醫院的這一個問題有關於避零的問題有充分獲得溝通解決了嗎對我們都有跟跨部會跟中央地方政府的溝通我們都有在做是好好希望你們一定要要就是計畫的執行是一定要達到你原先預期的一個成果嗎當然當然"},{"start":8508.111,"end":8511.193,"text":"目前我們全國執行監護處分的總共有多少人?目前收治分配的情況是如何?"},{"start":8531.683,"end":8537.108,"text":"這邊我有資料是那整個收治分配的一個情形"},{"start":8543.623,"end":8567.633,"text":"整個刑遣的是51人刑後的是173人有拘束人甚至有184人另外沒有拘束的就是比較輕微的這部分是有40人分布在各個地方另外有部分比較中高的這部分已經到藍區的去做收治了藍區的高雄的凱旋醫院"},{"start":8571.334,"end":8591.386,"text":"那,就我剛才我想跟衛福部的討教之後,我們大概知道說其實我們還整個不管是病床數啦,或者是精神醫院也都還沒有建設完成嘛,所以在病房數的這個數量還沒有達到它的量能的時候,我們要如何解決收支的這些收支的問題?"},{"start":8593.627,"end":8620.663,"text":"那目前的話因為是送一般的精神醫療機構嗎就是有些是我們簽約的這些的醫院那一定有病房病床才有因為每個都要有一個病床那現在是簽約的醫院在指定有精神科的這些醫療所以我們會送到那邊去對就還要簽約那有些是如果下去有的那我們再盡量再下去另外沒有下去就跨下去你是這樣子來收治嗎那我再請教部長"},{"start":8623.305,"end":8635.475,"text":"一般精神醫療機構的病房安全維護跟精神病院的病房安全維護設施有沒有什麼不同?"},{"start":8638.257,"end":8660.909,"text":"這部分的安全當然我們這部分的安全維護設施的話我們去檢視因為確實是這些受監護人跟暫時安置人他是有一些的攻擊性的精神的有一些的狀況當然我們這部分有做一些的安全維護部長我會問你這問題就是說我們上次受監護處分人脫逃他就是從一般精神醫療機構來脫逃對所以"},{"start":8663.911,"end":8690.812,"text":"我們如果把就是說一般的精神醫療機構他的一個安全的維護啊要達到跟我們這個專業的收治的精神醫療機構他的安全會不會要一樣啊我們那個屬於剛才我有提到的就是我們規劃建置的這些司法精神醫院的人力像我們這些的安全維護能力我們幾乎是1比1啊幾乎是1比1所以變成30床我們是規劃是29人"},{"start":8693.995,"end":8712.034,"text":"一般的話我們就是得設沒有做一個強制的一個安全維護的但是他們醫院也就是另外要聘請這些保全的來處理所以我們其實法務部或者是我們的相關的"},{"start":8715.197,"end":8722.282,"text":"執行機關並沒有去安排維護的人力去維護沒有強制的規定這個是強度不同部長我聽到我很訝異因為我想這部分不能等閒視之"},{"start":8732.99,"end":8733.19,"text":"主席"},{"start":8761.618,"end":8767.383,"text":"接下來我們請范雲委員范雲委員范雲委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員"},{"start":8791.461,"end":8813.156,"text":"蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員好,那我們請林思美委員先暫時代理主席那我可以先做提案說明嗎?因為快11點了,我就做提案說明我先請,好來"},{"start":8823.785,"end":8842.686,"text":"好 我們現在處理臨時提案一案 請宣讀臨時提案一 修正本略以要求法務部於三個月內提供一百一十一年至一百一十二年間之監護處分執行報告 內容須並含一遭宣告監護處分者之疾病類型、性別、年齡"},{"start":8843.607,"end":8871.26,"text":"遭監護宣告之人所犯罪名是否為同樣罪名再犯之情形及監護處分宣告執行方法、細緻住院治療、門診治療、親屬監護或其他適當之處域等方式進行分析。二、轉嫌機制之具體作為,包括轉嫌評估標準、轉嫌單位後續追蹤情形及預防再犯之措施以充分了解說法後,近年監護處分執行現況、提案人委員吳宗憲等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8873.753,"end":8898.232,"text":"現在請吳宗憲委員做提案說明有關這個部分主要也是因為我們討論到精神疾病患者犯法之後的一些管理及處遇方面的問題尤其是之前有精神疾病患者他逃脫之後造成社會上面的恐慌所以這一塊我覺得我們要開始回過頭去注意一下"},{"start":8899.733,"end":8922.628,"text":"這段時間法務部在強化社會安全網第二期計畫裡面到底做了哪些事情以及與衛福部之間的合作狀況這部分我們希望說法務部能夠在三個月內提供111年到112年的監護處分執行報告那內容我們希望能夠包括到"},{"start":8924.189,"end":8943.486,"text":"監護處分者的疾病類型、性別、年齡還有遭監護宣告之人的犯罪的罪名是哪些有沒有再犯的問題還有一些有關於監護處分宣告的執行方法住院治療、門診治療或者是親屬"},{"start":8946.689,"end":8961.445,"text":"親屬監護或其他適當處理方式進行分析提供轉嫌機制的具體作為包括評估標準、轉嫌單位、後續追蹤情況以及預防再犯"},{"start":8962.866,"end":8990.351,"text":"我們希望說法務部提供給我們這些資料不要說讓前幾天發生的那個讓5月10幾號的時候發生的那個讓全台灣民眾都非常恐慌的事情再發生我想說這個是法務部一定要做到的責任這部分所以我提了這個臨時提案請法務部能夠提供我們相關的資料好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那我們法務部對這個提案有沒有什麼意見做補充報告"},{"start":8992.884,"end":9014.529,"text":"謝謝委員 我們就同意修正後的一個版本 謝謝好 謝謝好 我們臨時提案第一案我們照修正後的版本照案通過接下來請吳宗憲委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們請法務部長還有警政署的代表"},{"start":9023.977,"end":9048.066,"text":"委員好兩位早安我想我今天本來是準備要就強化社會安全網第二期的部分有一些東西要跟各位就教那因為剛剛我聽了審發會委員還有縣委員所提到的有關手機的那個部分我想說我這邊也要提出一些想法"},{"start":9049.198,"end":9064.603,"text":"其實在上一屆的時候李桂民委員就曾經問過法務部長蔡清當時的部長蔡清想就是有關這種社會的大型運動或者是政治活動會不會遭到監控那當時的蔡部長非常的明確告訴我們說"},{"start":9065.503,"end":9066.424,"text":"當時的部長說得非常清楚"},{"start":9082.686,"end":9099.053,"text":"所以說我們也是信任部長說的那部長也說這個手機招監控因為是涉及一定是涉及犯罪嫌疑負責的懲辦的檢察官認為有辦案的需求才會加以鎖定如果沒有涉及到犯罪"},{"start":9099.733,"end":9126.489,"text":"我手機就不會被定位結果這個剛剛兩位立委跟部長就請教的王逸川這個人在節目上面表示說總統選舉造勢到近期兩次的集會遊行都證明有人給民進黨中央有關手機使用者的資訊那這個是王逸川在公開的節目中所說的"},{"start":9127.987,"end":9140.415,"text":"我想請教的是部長這個蔡前部長說謊還是有哪一個單位在進行這樣的資料跟收集跟分析啊謝謝委員那我想這個"},{"start":9143.923,"end":9160.41,"text":"這個我並不清楚他那個是有什麼單位做資料的數據的分析但是我也尊重蔡部長的一個講法好 謝謝部長那這樣等於是沒有回答那我再請教一下"},{"start":9162.284,"end":9186.855,"text":"對於手機定位這個東西我在這邊就直接我們來談一下手機定位這個個資法上面的概念我想法務部在政府以資訊國安為由採用電子監控系統並追蹤手機是否侵犯自由人權與侵害隱私應如何確立合理明確的法律界限的專題報告"},{"start":9188.516,"end":9189.501,"text":"中．法務部說參酌國發會"},{"start":9193.194,"end":9219.984,"text":"在107年11月7日發法字第107-200-2039號函以及同年月21日發法字第107-200-2136號函的解釋似乎手機號碼及定位資訊是屬於個人資料而有個人資料保護法的適用這是當初法務部在專題報告中所說的再來"},{"start":9221.585,"end":9245.08,"text":"在大數據運用及隱私保護手機定位資料與防疫應用之法律問題延期由先前的行政院資通安全處處長兼紅偉他所撰寫的文章也曾經下過一個結論就是手機定位資訊是個人的資料保護保護法第二條第一款規定的個人資料"},{"start":9246.215,"end":9262.012,"text":"所以我想請教部長一個問題手機定位是不是屬於各執法的保護範圍內手機定位這個是個人資料的確是各執法的一個問題好 謝謝我想說這跟之前法務部的說法"},{"start":9263.131,"end":9264.433,"text":"王一川使用的資料是哪裡來的?"},{"start":9278.491,"end":9300.948,"text":"這是我覺得很奇怪的一個點啦既然定位資料是屬於各自保障的範圍那這個資料到底是哪裡來的當然這段時間有人扯說新北市府在辦歡樂夜爛城曾經做了什麼那個是人流的管制跟這個是完全不一樣因為他講的內容包括到年齡以及不同場次的交叉分析"},{"start":9302.269,"end":9311.199,"text":"這個你我都很清楚嘛 這個都騙不了人嘛 除非是不想動腦子去思考的人 就才會不知道這兩個差距在哪裡一個是人流的控管 一個是"},{"start":9312.233,"end":9332.353,"text":"已經具識別化出前初步識別化的年齡以及不同場次的分析所以這樣的作為部長覺得這沒有違法嗎因為這個是法官保留的部分吧你要對於各自的保障的例外應該是屬於法官保留吧這怎麼會拿到這個資料呢部長認為這個合法嗎"},{"start":9336.653,"end":9357.887,"text":"各執法的話它可不可以合理的使用那個各執法有做一個規定它第一條就有規定那個合理使用沒有問題兼顧使用而且這個應該不是這個各執法有要使用應該是要按照各執法的這些的規定來這跟通報法不一樣通報是要法官保留"},{"start":9358.487,"end":9386.314,"text":"那各自法的使用這是一個有它的另外的規範它那個保護的跟通保法因為通保法24條那一部分必須要監聽它那個內容的問題好沒問題好那不然這部分我再做補充一下因為我剛剛可能說太快沒有說因為這部分我個人認為是一部分是跟各自有關但另外一部分是手機通訊的使用這會涉及到通保法這部分會涉及到法官保留的部分我剛剛可能講比較快好那因為"},{"start":9387.674,"end":9409.087,"text":"如果我們讓非官方而且非犯罪偵查非國安調查的情況下的一般個人就可以取得這些手機定位的資料甚至一些通訊方面的資料通保法規範的範圍或各自法規範的範圍其實我覺得這個我到現在想還是覺得似乎有點不太對勁那在這邊是不是"},{"start":9412.549,"end":9438.239,"text":"我覺得這個部分是不是我在這邊可以對他進行告發然後可能麻煩那個這應該是北檢吧北檢或者是市檢市檢能夠進行調查這塊我想說因為其實我說真的告他不是說找誰麻煩啦也許我們是幫他釐清他是合法的給國人一個交代不要讓大家開始在"},{"start":9439.369,"end":9467.509,"text":"人心惶惶說原來我這些資料我以為是秘密的我個資的部分卻可以被人拿去使用在政論節目我覺得這有點恐怖啦尤其是可以做不同場次的分析我是不是曾經參加過太陽花學院我是不是曾經參加過哪一次政治集會就可以做這樣交叉分析我想今天不管是哪一個黨都不太能忍受這樣的狀況發生所以我想我在這邊就具體"},{"start":9469.052,"end":9487.299,"text":"我會具體告發不管告發的結果怎麼樣我覺得我都尊重檢方的認定也許檢方是還王逸川一個清白這樣也很好因為這樣讓國人知道沒有問題這個資料取得可能是或者是王逸川自己胡說八道這也有可能所以我這邊我想我會做這樣的想法"},{"start":9487.739,"end":9499.333,"text":"因為我總是覺得我國是五權憲法的國家世界上國家幾乎都是三權我們本來比人家多了兩權就現在不能把五權憲法完全是一權一權專制國家"},{"start":9502.857,"end":9531.543,"text":"因為本來我們是行政立法司法考試監察的五權就現在被搞得只剩下行政權而已變成執政黨所有的行政權大家都配合行政權在玩那我們變一權國家突然從世界上區分最多的五權憲法體制變成是一權體制這其實還蠻莫名其妙的尤其因為我這段時間我從選前看到的飛彈的假簡訊到反滲透法用了一堆的那個檢調的資源警察的資源下去查這些"},{"start":9532.483,"end":9548.639,"text":"李長什麼赴中國旅遊一直到其實我看了一次比一次痛心啦怎麼國家會被完成這樣因為我以前以為的行政總理我以前以為的國家憲法制度下的獨立機關或者是法律獨立下的獨立機關現在感覺都沒有那麼的獨立"},{"start":9549.56,"end":9550.201,"text":"我的想法是這樣子"},{"start":9569.139,"end":9592.713,"text":"好那最後我就回歸到今天的議題因為時間的關係我想說因為我有提那個臨時提案有請各位能夠先給我一些數據所以今天就問題的部分我可能我就不多我想我就不多說啦那不過我還是想要請教一下因為剛剛那個陳俊偉有提到說對於監護處分作業流程這個部分對於這些"},{"start":9596.926,"end":9597.306,"text":"這個我再來瞭解"},{"start":9625.706,"end":9652.043,"text":"這個是由地檢署去處理的那這個部長再麻煩你了解一下那你幫我了解一下說本件第一個當然每個月至少要視察一次就是先幫我了解一下有沒有真的有去做到視察就像以前我在地檢署的時候我們要視察監獄我們都一定會有那個機率而且我們會填寫那個報告表那我想請部長幫我們了解一下"},{"start":9653.124,"end":9681.283,"text":"到底有沒有去做到每個月至少視察一次再來他的評估的狀況還有一個就是精進的狀況怎麼樣那下一次有機會我可能就會跟部長請教到這個監護處分的一些維安預算的運用因為本來是準備在今天要跟大家請教但是我剛好沿著前面那個話題下來我想那個是剛發生的也是國人現在開始會擔心的一件事那我覺得這幾天可能"},{"start":9682.003,"end":9707.174,"text":"因為這事情我昨天我都在立法院忙我並沒有注意到新聞但是今天早上我看到很多新聞跳出來有人在談這個事情那這種事情我的手機會被定位這是會造成人的恐慌了就像之前有法院認為GPS不能隨便裝因為你GPS隨便裝他認為這是侵害我的隱私權嘛所以當時有海巡署的同仁因為辦案者而被判刑"},{"start":9708.288,"end":9731.141,"text":"所以我們現在開始推動要把科技偵查要去立法這國家是朝向一個非常好的方向去走沒有錯但是從GPS都不能裝的這個角度去思考如果GPS不能裝裝的是侵害隱私權結果我的手機被定位卻是可以那你告訴我說我已經去識別化了但是你去識別化的程度到什麼樣"},{"start":9732.262,"end":9755.007,"text":"如果還可以做不同場域的交叉分析我其實擔心這個是真的有達到去識別化嗎這個是我很擔心的一個點不能因為我曾經參加過拿機場的政治活動然後我就要被政府瞭解我的政治傾向是什麼這是集權國家在做不是民主國家在做的這部分我想部長您應該不會否定我的想法吧"},{"start":9757.275,"end":9768.824,"text":"這個我們會來了解好 那謝謝部長那下一次我就再跟部長請教這個有關預算的使用還有這個監護處分的目的有沒有達成好 謝謝部長好 謝謝吳宗憲委員"},{"start":9787.022,"end":9801.049,"text":"好 謝謝各位那接下來我們請吳思瑤委員去導謝謝主席有請部長那也請秘書長一起好嗎請部長秘書長上台"},{"start":9806.645,"end":9821.081,"text":"我想先就教依循著剛剛今天大家都比較hard issue在follow的問題這個王逸川今天成了我們司法法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物我想問一下部長"},{"start":9822.462,"end":9841.298,"text":"現在坊間常常在使用這個手機來精算也是大數據的演算能夠用大數據的方式那用在商業上然後可以針對不同的活動的人流商業來進行分析這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data 您知道嗎"},{"start":9843.382,"end":9866.938,"text":"這個我沒有那麼清楚你們要了解那因為當然我認為王逸川在節目上所說的事情資訊從哪裡來我無從得知那我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方但是我想請問如果手機的定位的內容是去識別化的"},{"start":9867.919,"end":9878.444,"text":"去識別化再來進行各種的分析商業使用或是其他學術研討使用研究使用的話那去識別化有涉及各資嗎?"},{"start":9880.635,"end":9897.903,"text":"個人資料當然一定是自然人嘛自然人的一個那手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍啦那去四倍化我想這個應該是是不是可以屬於那個個資法的一個合理使用的一個問題"},{"start":9900.524,"end":9907.451,"text":"你們好好要再精確一點否則在其他的詢答的過程不夠嚴謹就被簡稱抖音就被去以訛傳訛法務部長就認為這樣是涉及各自"},{"start":9916.098,"end":9939.637,"text":"剛剛就在今天的內政委員會內政部部長劉世芳他的詢答他說現在在臺北縣市的警局或是內政部也有一些人口護證在使用的相關資料只要是去識別化並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題這是內政部部長劉世芳所說的我再給您一次機會那個的確是各自法他是有保障"},{"start":9940.418,"end":9940.458,"text":"主席"},{"start":9961.992,"end":9976.181,"text":"我們可以讓真理越辯越明當然王逸川他也多次的清楚澄清跟說明並非由單一政黨有這個能力而且去進行了使用這個系統來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論我想當事人他已經做出清楚的這個澄清跟說明那剛剛我們的吳宗憲教委說他個人要去告發王逸川我也尊重"},{"start":9989.088,"end":10000.939,"text":"但是如果要告發的話可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發一併連盧秀燕也可以一起告發因為這些地方政府也都使用這個Big Data去從事相關的必要的合理的使用這是我的看法"},{"start":10006.084,"end":10028.779,"text":"第二個呢我也看到在野黨的這個黃國昌委員今天在昨天國會立法院職權行使法國會擴選的法案剛通過還不到10小時這個法律還沒有正式被頒布、被總統公布居然黃國昌也說要針對王逸川就鎖定成為第一個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人我想這就是先射箭再劃靶嘛"},{"start":10035.323,"end":10049.438,"text":"這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權這種包括副官級總召昨天說的一完成立法他就喜滋滋的、得意洋洋的對媒體說我們要成立在野的國會特徵組"},{"start":10054.966,"end":10081.127,"text":"天啊 整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎"},{"start":10082.267,"end":10091.658,"text":"因為這五位啊電視上常常在評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴啊或是政治評論家就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公佈的懲戒名單裡頭所以呢這樣的修法這樣的一個裡應外合"},{"start":10101.592,"end":10129.823,"text":"國會特徵組國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立一權獨大剛剛我們召委說我們成了一權國家其實這個一權國家獨大的是立法院昨天通過的這些國會擴權的惡法就會形成台灣只剩下一個立法權他可以凌駕行政權他可以凌駕監察權可以凌駕司法權"},{"start":10132.136,"end":10152.872,"text":"所以呢我要再次說請大家要自制啊一個法律剛上路都對不起它還沒有上路連三讀的文字哩哩啦啦還有一堆文字的缺漏扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾居然就說要鎖定王逸川就要叫來成為國會第一個被問話"},{"start":10154.733,"end":10164.999,"text":"被問訊的人這就是在野黨遂行了政治肅殺的政治目的不是嗎不演了完全不演了"},{"start":10166.016,"end":10195.019,"text":"所以呢我是覺得很遺憾我請司法院秘書長在這裡因為這個法律通過二三讀之後監察院很快的就公布了一個新聞的聲明監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重的傷害了監察權那違反了憲法的院紀之間憲法機關之間的權力分立的原則那其實同樣的我們在座的兩位在台上的兩位司法權"},{"start":10195.8,"end":10214.323,"text":"也是被剝奪了一部分國會、立委都急切地想要成為法官跟檢察官那檢察院有這樣子的一個statement我要在這裡我不為難秘書長啦我本來想說那秘書長也應當有司法院的立場"},{"start":10215.846,"end":10241.963,"text":"說法才對但我想您在這裡講的每一句話可能都會被無限擴大畢竟未來也是釋憲的憲法法庭也是需要更公正超然的客觀的一個立場但是我要再次跟藉由我質詢的時間跟國融同胞來分享我的觀點也就是說先上車後補票先開刀再麻醉就是現在的狀況"},{"start":10243.649,"end":10253.582,"text":"再也黨先修法讓自己國會擴了權取代了監察權取代了司法權然後呢再來說我們下一步來廢考監來修憲"},{"start":10256.284,"end":10268.833,"text":"這民進黨早就在這一個場域司法法制委員會我已經講了N次我講了N次如果要修憲就修憲不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲在野黨現在是先修法讓國會擴權然後回過來說我們現在來推動廢監察院的修憲案"},{"start":10282.595,"end":10303.931,"text":"這就是先上車再後補再補票啊這就是醫生要開刀先給你開了刀再來麻醉啊秘書長我的說法正確嗎就憲政分立的原則有先擴大了立法的權限然後再來說我要來廢掉監察院嗎這是監察院昨天的聲明裡頭清楚的闡述的立場秘書第5"},{"start":10308.001,"end":10333.016,"text":"那這個問題 林董簡單可以回答吧該修憲是不是就修憲 絕對不能先修法之後再回頭來去修憲 先上車後補票 很簡單的問題藐視國會罪還沒有總統公告 你不用害怕 就回答 據實以答沒有關係因為多元的社會 我們尊重委員的說法"},{"start":10334.252,"end":10345.463,"text":"所以尊重立法委員胡說八道尊重立法委員胡亂修法這就是藐視國會最嚴重的地方翁小林委員說的上對下的關係"},{"start":10347.15,"end":10372.941,"text":"我要跟大家說他應驗了汪小玲說的上對下的關係在這一次的國會擴權的修法完全應驗了因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答國情報告改為常態化這就是太上立院上對下對民選總統擁有最高民意基礎的總統立法院可以這樣對待他"},{"start":10374.332,"end":10383.579,"text":"第2個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣子的荒誕制度的設計讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲每一個人成為乖乖牌每一個人不敢言所當言、為所當為然後真的成為質詢就是上對下因為有藐視國會罪"},{"start":10396.519,"end":10412.535,"text":"第三個上對下就是最殘暴的一個太上國會可以把人民動輒的叫來立法院要你提供資料就提供資料要你來問話就問話把人民的人權踩在腳底這就是上對下"},{"start":10413.436,"end":10432.362,"text":"翁曉琳說的都靈驗了都應驗了剛剛吳宗憲、張偉說如果王逸川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權的法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料你要來這裡應訊問話連找律師都要主席同意"},{"start":10440.706,"end":10457.515,"text":"個人資料保護法欸吳宗憲你敢說啊你們這種違憲、亂證的修法有把個人資料保護法有把人權放在眼裡嗎如果你們對於王逸川的言論如此認為不可我當然也認為王逸川的講話不夠精準"},{"start":10463.24,"end":10483.887,"text":"但是如果要用同樣的標準一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱稱為侵害人權違反個資那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案把人民叫來立法院必須提供一切的資料"},{"start":10485.462,"end":10498.962,"text":"這沒有侵害人權嗎?實在很抱歉我今天的主題其實準備很多那只好下一次再針對我們的司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位但是我們站在這裡這個現正時刻"},{"start":10501.505,"end":10515.888,"text":"我們都要非常嚴肅的去面對我也認為不要因為有了藐視國會罪大家不敢講話這是反民主你們有你們的法學專業絕對在我吳斯堯百倍千倍以上"},{"start":10516.946,"end":10542.574,"text":"但是針對基本該有的憲政精神的捍衛對於我們司法獨立的捍衛對於人權的捍衛我們都要繼續言所當言為所當為否則一個不敢講話的國會殿堂這是什麼民主只有立委可以在這裡無地放矢官員不能表述"},{"start":10544.178,"end":10559.163,"text":"我認為這是民主倒退的一刻我在這裡還是期勉大家藐視國會罪民主進步黨會提出釋憲案我們也很有把握希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的判決"},{"start":10560.862,"end":10561.102,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝吳司堯委員"},{"start":10589.735,"end":10591.677,"text":"我還是很中立的概念"},{"start":10598.812,"end":10606.401,"text":"希望說我們是藉由這個方式來讓民眾適宜因為我認為說在不同場域的分析比較跟人流"},{"start":10615.811,"end":10630.314,"text":"的控管其實這個在層次上面在個資上面是有不同層次所以我從頭到尾也沒有說希望用國會有關的將來的調查權或什麼聽證權方面我都沒有提這個我反而是很"},{"start":10631.155,"end":10646.671,"text":"持平的希望說因為既然已經造成了社會上面的懷疑那就有一個公正的第三方的檢方去調查而且我剛剛也說了我也是希望說我們查出來原來是一個誤會這是對的那反而是讓國人適宜"},{"start":10649.613,"end":10675.763,"text":"我覺得我的立場說得很清楚那我也不想要把這個事情變成是一個政治的攻擊因為今天如果就像我剛剛提到的GPS光是裝GPS就那個海巡署的人員就被法院判刑那GPS他就是知道你的定位那如果國家或者是這些電信公司可以透過手機的定位把我的一些相關的資料"},{"start":10677.25,"end":10690.549,"text":"賣給第三方或者是透露給第三方而沒有法律依據的時候我覺得我今天是要了解這個事而且我是希望由公正的第三方檢方出來調查而不是由我們自己去調查去"},{"start":10692.372,"end":10707.407,"text":"主觀的說我認為怎麼樣我想說我還是很持平的在看待每一件事情當然我也非常的期望說檢方調查之後發現其實沒有問題這個王先生他的每一個作為都是合法的那讓我們國人都能夠安心能夠心裡會得到"},{"start":10709.969,"end":10710.189,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10739.889,"end":10740.069,"text":"我想說"},{"start":10768.224,"end":10789.09,"text":"這個跟各市政府、各縣市政府在處理公共活動的時候的人流控管在程度上有非常大的不同我剛剛已經說了不同場域的分析其實我覺得這是有一點問題所以這部分我想說我才會提出剛剛那個想法那當然我也是祝福說王先生在檢方瞭解之後發現其實是沒有問題的"},{"start":10790.03,"end":10793.772,"text":"今天所有發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束委員質詢時,要求提供的相關資料以及書面答覆,請相關資料請速送交個別委員跟本會"},{"start":10817.216,"end":10831.57,"text":"委員翁曉琳所提的書面質詢列入記錄勘登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議就到這邊結束大家辛苦了謝謝各位今天來到這裡現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15962","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2da75a1f35c7302ecd69e13353c436ea853be8d109af184be4bff36cfa4b1a32275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-29","start_time":"2024-05-29T08:31:17+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:37:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14743,"委員發言時間":"08:31:17 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合到法律戰跟認知戰．持續的對我國來實施複合式的威脅．以便來達到建立台海新建動的一個企圖．"},{"start":2472.677,"end":2499.163,"text":"那第三是中共會加大對台的統戰分化的一個力度那面對台灣的新政局中共會持續的對台灣來施展組合權也就是一方面會藉由政經的施壓挑起我們的官民矛盾同時利用差別待遇來分化各政黨的立場以及來散布各種的錯假訊息打擊我國的軍心士氣離間台美的關係甚至恫嚇我國的媒體、議員要進行自我審查的涉入言論營造寒蟬效應"},{"start":2500.583,"end":2519.131,"text":"另一方面,也會利用到兩岸的大交流來擴大宣誡兩岸民族文化同源,結合到中國大陸市場發展的誘因,鼓勵台灣的青年到對岸來發展,以便來增加對於中國大陸的認同。中共對台的軍演,升高了國際社會對中共威脅區域核穩的一個關切。"},{"start":2519.611,"end":2542.137,"text":"那在這樣的環境之下是有利於我國跟理念相近國家來推動安全的協作跟情報的分享那本局會持續的統合國安單位加強掌收中共安全威脅的預警情資持續的來將國際警示中共透遊複合式手段蠶食迫害台海現狀也會實質的來揭露中共分化我內部團結的相關的一個策略跟作為"},{"start":2542.697,"end":2560.46,"text":"以便來協助政府可以有效來整合國內外的資源應處中共對我國多重威脅的攻勢以上報告進行大院委員先進不定指導謝謝接下來請外交部田政務次長上台報告"},{"start":2569.304,"end":2589.218,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安首先感謝貴委員會邀請外交部就第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響進行報告書面報告請參閱,僅報告其中重點如下,敬請指教"},{"start":2590.543,"end":2617.899,"text":"我國國家安全數十年來一直受到中國的威脅和國際情勢變化的影響特別是這幾年來中國由於國力的崛起對外擴張以及享用實現所謂的中國夢因此對於我國的軍事威脅外交打壓和經濟脅迫的力道越來越大加上國際局勢變動劇烈因此臺灣的國家安全必然受到連帶的影響"},{"start":2619.56,"end":2646.877,"text":"面臨的挑戰和變數也越來越多由於國際情勢變化很多國家對於中國的擴張懷疑有戒心另一方面也是在國人和政府的共同努力之下今天是國際社會對台灣最重視也是最友好的歷史時刻與此同時維持了台海和印太的和平穩定也成了國際社會的高度共識"},{"start":2648.158,"end":2675.115,"text":"因此國際和兩岸的情勢的可能發展對我國安的影響可說是充滿了挑戰同時也帶來了契機我們會克服挑戰掌握契機全力捍衛國家的主權安全和利益以及確保我們的自由民主生活方式國際情勢發展其實很難匿料研判近期可能的發展如下"},{"start":2675.976,"end":2690.283,"text":"第一,俄烏戰爭以哈衝突,南海爭端,朝鮮半島緊張局勢仍在持續升溫,全球地緣政治動盪持續而且風險升高,更存在許多變數。"},{"start":2691.738,"end":2707.521,"text":"第二,當前民主對抗威權的國際格局已然成形,壁壘分明,而且難以逆轉。臺灣位於對抗威權主義的第一線,將持續立守全球民主的最前線。第三,"},{"start":2708.402,"end":2722.969,"text":"中俄兩國河流不僅已對全球民主構成了重大威脅也企圖挑戰以規則為基礎的國際秩序並合力對抗以美國為首的民主陣營第四"},{"start":2723.809,"end":2753.095,"text":"今年是全球的選舉年70多國已經或將舉行大選人口超過全球一半以上其中11月美國大選對於全球的政經更是具有關鍵性的影響第五全球經貿情勢進行也會因為美中兩國將持續的角力美國等國家的大選、全球貿易戰、地緣政治風險等因素更具不確定性"},{"start":2754.773,"end":2776.485,"text":"中國上週二、三日在臺灣周圍進行為期兩天的軍演升高了區域的緊張無視國際社會對於維持臺海以及印太區域和平穩定的高度共識北京當局的單邊軍事挑釁行徑威脅臺灣民主、自由和區域和平穩定的情況令人遺憾"},{"start":2777.489,"end":2796.858,"text":"我們再次感謝這幾天來許多國家或者國際的友人,紛紛表達對台海情勢的關切,反對任何以武力或脅迫改變現狀的單邊行動,包括拜登總統25日在公開演講說,再次重申堅定維護台海和平與穩定。"},{"start":2799.076,"end":2822.166,"text":"由於國際局勢及兩岸情勢目前並沒有明顯的和緩跡象對我的國安帶來了許多挑戰與變數可能的影響包括第一在安全方面中國將繼續對台灣文攻武嚇採取灰色地帶行動企圖打造所謂新常態對我施壓"},{"start":2823.246,"end":2851.505,"text":"但另一方面國際社會也將持續高度關注台海的情勢第二在外交方面嚴判中國將加大對我外交打壓尤其在國際上將鞏固其所謂的一個中國格局扭曲聯大第2758號決議加強連結一中原則甚至不排除再次不計成本的又拉我有幫轉向"},{"start":2853.266,"end":2859.93,"text":"第三,在經貿方面,不排除中國會變本加厲．對我施以經濟脅迫．阻擾我國和其他國家簽署雙邊經貿協議．以及加入CPTPP等區域經濟整合機制"},{"start":2869.181,"end":2890.392,"text":"面對這些外部的挑戰外交部全體同仁將在過去八年踏實外交的良好基礎上全力推動價值外交以民主、和平與繁榮來深化臺灣的國際連結鞏固邦交並且不斷地深化與理念相近的國家實質關係和合作讓臺灣繼續走向世界"},{"start":2896.368,"end":2909.719,"text":"此外,我們也會加強結合國內外各方面的資源和力量,並進行跨部會的合作,降低兩岸和國際情勢發展對我們的負面影響甚至衝擊。"},{"start":2911.85,"end":2929.363,"text":"國際情勢瞬息萬變,臺灣的地緣戰略角色獲得國際的重視,面對中國不斷透過統戰、分化、滲透破壞、灰色地帶等手段對臺灣施壓的挑戰,外交部將全力以赴,即先應處各項挑戰。"},{"start":2931.653,"end":2951.425,"text":"最後再次感謝貴委員會和各位委員對於外交部的支持與鼓勵也請各位委員繼續指導和協助以上報告謝謝接下來我們請陸委會梁副主委上台報告"},{"start":2967.406,"end":2979.101,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、陳孟貴委員會邀請就第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響進行報告,以下請提出本會說明,進行指教。"},{"start":2981.728,"end":3007.506,"text":"賴總統於5月20日正式就職中華民國第16任總統就職演說強調打造民主、和平、繁榮的新台灣。每日等多國表達祝賀。美國國務卿布林肯20日發表聲明表示期待與賴總統及台灣各界共同努力維護台海和平與穩定。美國總統拜登於西點軍校演說表示將捍衛台海和平與穩定,以武力保護盟友。"},{"start":3009.068,"end":3030.546,"text":"日本內閣官房長官林芳正也強調,臺海和平穩定對日本及國際社會相當重要,將直接向中方傳達此一立場。歐盟外交事務高級代表波瑞爾市警,北京軍演活動加劇臺海緊張局勢。聯合國秘書長古特雷斯呼籲中共誤採取可能加劇臺海緊張局勢的作為,並將密切關注臺海事態發展。"},{"start":3035.81,"end":3059.324,"text":"中共高調批評賴總統就職演說,重申其一中反獨促同的立場,發動媒體及涉台學者展開輿論、文宣攻勢並強迫在陸發展之臺灣藝人表態,另外還在國際動員哈薩克、烏茲別克、吉爾吉斯、委內瑞拉、塞爾維亞、伊朗等親中國家操作聯大第二七五八號決議文與一中原則國際化。"},{"start":3061.005,"end":3083.949,"text":"在軍事施壓方面共軍東部戰區5月23、24兩天在我本島及離島周邊海空域進行軍事演訓福建海警船並多次侵入我離島禁縣制水域中共企圖藉著對台文攻武嚇展現其掌握兩岸關係主導權、主動權並測試我新政府應對能力同時觀察國際對台各種脅迫作為的反應"},{"start":3088.55,"end":3104.053,"text":"中共近年堅持中國特色社會主義的意識形態對外採取強勢的作為升高台海、南海、東海等區域衝突風險是當前區域情勢不穩定的主要根源根據本會近期民調"},{"start":3105.214,"end":3134.694,"text":"超過九成的臺灣民眾不認同中共軍機繼續在我周邊活動北京當局應該充分認知威嚇無法爭取臺灣民心只會造成兩岸對立升高及區域情勢動盪政府將繼續遵循賴總統就職演說的精神秉持四個堅持不卑不亢維持現狀以自信穩健負責任團結的態度推動兩岸事務並致力維持臺海及區域和平穩定"},{"start":3135.935,"end":3148.734,"text":"未來政府將密切觀察臺海情勢變化、審慎應處並依據中華民國憲政體制與相關法規推動對等尊嚴、健康有序的兩岸交流以上報告,敬請指教。謝謝"},{"start":3155.97,"end":3174.432,"text":"好,我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點30分發言登記截止我們如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右試詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3182.93,"end":3184.519,"text":"有請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":3192.832,"end":3212.057,"text":"主席羅文早局長早局長在上個禮拜賴清德總統上任的三天之後中國就實施了對台灣的這個還台的這個軍演那這次的軍演是首次覆蓋了金馬等這個外圍那我們要值得注意的就是說"},{"start":3212.977,"end":3215.979,"text":"這次的軍演是繼2022年培洛西議長來台之後中國對台灣舉行的第二次的大型軍演這次有很多國際分析師都說其實中國這次的軍演其實是對台灣的完全攻擊"},{"start":3229.128,"end":3234.411,"text":"那中國針對這次軍演他就說那是我們是針對賴清德總統的就職言論而來的可是很多這個軍事專家說這麼大型的軍演絕對是已經準備了好幾個月也就是說不管賴清德總統講什麼反正520之後我就是要給你下馬威實際上我們看到應該也都是這個樣子那剛剛局長你有提到就是說這次軍事的這演習發布的這個行動代號是2024A"},{"start":3258.006,"end":3273.621,"text":"2024有A可能就是還是有BCD一系列2024可能他就會對台灣有一系列的這種軍演的這個活動這個軍演的這個演習那像這個除了這個軍演之外我們也看到"},{"start":3275.742,"end":3304.154,"text":"這幾天有很多這個台灣的這個藝人被迫表派就是轉發台灣從來不是一個國家的這個貼文所以我們可以看到這個中國的這個文攻武嚇從來都沒有停止過那接下來本期想請教的就是說我不曉得說國安局有沒有注意到二月份的一個報導那二月份有一位中國的旅澳"},{"start":3305.494,"end":3324.631,"text":"法學家袁紅冰他就提到了在這個大選之後習近平他發現韓國瑜也許會當上這個立法院的院長傅坤祺可能會成為國民黨立法院黨團的總召"},{"start":3326.813,"end":3344.001,"text":"那時候他就提到就是說要這個王滬寧跟宋濤好好的抓住這兩個人律師這個報導請問這個我們國安局有沒有掌握呢有沒有掌握這是在二月份的時候透露了"},{"start":3344.561,"end":3359.861,"text":"不是520之後或是說這兩天立法院通過這個立法委員立法院的職權行使法這時候才說的他2月份就透露了有這樣子的這個這個訊息而且他有提到就是說"},{"start":3362.464,"end":3374.899,"text":"他那時候有提到四個很重要的要點,我不曉得這裡面的內容,國安局有沒有去了解他的真偽?我想請問一下,有沒有注意到這份報導?"},{"start":3377.502,"end":3400.456,"text":"對於中共國內的政情以及對台政策的相關的討論跟動向本局都有關注各種的公情跟秘情至於到我們在二合一大選之後因為國內的政治的生態還有結構已經出現一些變化所以我們確實有注意到中共在涉台政策的討論過程當中他們有去針對未來的一些政策做一些規劃跟討論大概有幾個重點"},{"start":3403.118,"end":3429.16,"text":"這個是會加強跟臺灣各界包括中央地方的民意代表各種的公協會以及各種的宗教文化團體還有各種的商業團體來加強各種的交流那在交流過程當中他們採取的策略大概是會透過這種區隔對待的方式以及拉同打疫的方式來爭取更多對於中國大陸相關政策立場的支持所以這個趨勢我們一直都有在掌握"},{"start":3430.802,"end":3451.46,"text":"局長你好像沒有針對的問題我只是要請教您就是說您針對這個袁紅冰她所提出來的這個警告我們事先有沒有掌握或是說我們看到這個報導有沒有去了解來那個局長我想跟您請教一下她有提出了這個四點的這個"},{"start":3456.717,"end":3471.915,"text":"說明,他說第一項,他說就是說習近平他有要求,有四項要求第一項就是說要通過各種有效的途徑要督促韓國瑜、傅坤琦用查閉案反貪腐的名義追查台灣潛艦國造案的問題進而破壞民進黨執政當局的這種國防自主、全民國防的戰略"},{"start":3477.561,"end":3503.41,"text":"瓦解臺灣乙武巨頭的意志這是第一項第二項內容是什麼呢韓國瑜現在也精明確宣布他要以九二共識為前提然後使國共兩黨的九二共識逐步成為臺灣社會主導性的看待兩岸關係的思潮那第三項就是要透過特定人士督促韓國瑜、傅昆吉和國民黨立法院的黨團利用議會改革就是國會改革的名義提出立法院的調查權總統的諮詢權、訪台獨等法"},{"start":3505.931,"end":3510.855,"text":"第四點就是要透過特定人士在韓國瑜主導台灣民主基金會之後呢督促他通過台灣民主基金會跟世界各國的華小組建的中華統一促進會等組織呢進行密切的接觸交流"},{"start":3534.175,"end":3549.881,"text":"針對這四項內容我想請教請教局長我們國安局有掌握這內容的政委嗎因為現在看起來這幾天從上個禮拜到昨天所發生立法院的這個混亂好像就是有劇本式的"},{"start":3552.02,"end":3570.48,"text":"對於委員所提到的這位中共的一律作家的一些觀察我們都有在注意那我一開始有跟委員說明就我們國家情報單位來講我們不會只單一的去注意到單一的訓練"},{"start":3571.681,"end":3600.179,"text":"除了一個單一訓練以外公情、秘情我們都要做各種的交叉比對才有辦法來完整的掌握中共對台相關政策動態那對於剛剛這位中國的一意作家的一些觀點那跟我們一些情資我們在交叉比對之後我才會跟委員說明中共會全力的來經營跟台灣各界的接觸也包括到中央的民意代表也就是立法院地方的民意代表跟各種的團體的交流那這會變成是他們未來對台政策的一個主要的重點"},{"start":3601.198,"end":3617.727,"text":"所以說國台辦在1月27號連時間都非常的明確說國台辦在1月27號就向習近平、港網、滬寧提供了一份文件這題目就叫做占領台灣立法院之高點的統戰戰略要點所以說立法院其實就是他們第一個攤頭堡是嗎?是這樣嗎?"},{"start":3621.269,"end":3635.84,"text":"在中共涉台系統的討論當中有特別去注意到立法院的席次結構確實出現變化那他們也提到了應該要加強跟在野黨之間的交往還有交流以便來掌握台灣相關政策發展的一個脈動確實是有這樣的趨勢"},{"start":3637.824,"end":3657.459,"text":"好,那,局長,我再請問,如果他的這個第三項,要透過特定人士督促韓國瑜、傅坤祺和國民黨、立運黨團的立運黨團呢,要提出,比如說提出立法院的調查權、總統的執行權、反台獨,這樣子的話,有沒有這所謂的特定人士是不是就犯了反滲透法?"},{"start":3658.536,"end":3687.647,"text":"這部分反滲透法的規定來講它有一些構成的法律要件那當然這部分我們會特別來注意在兩岸的一些交往或互動過程當中那有沒有涉及到反滲透法所提到的條文這大概有幾個重點我跟委員報告一下第一個是協助中國在臺灣本地發展相關的組織那第二個是竊取相關的國家機密那第三個就是有沒有涉及到可能高科技技術的轉移的問題那這大概就是我們在談反滲透法最主要的法律要件"},{"start":3688.007,"end":3713.724,"text":"那我們會注意相關的交流有沒有涉及到這樣的違法性那有沒有涉及反滲透法的第五條規定任何人不得受滲透來源之指示委託或資助進行遊說法第二條所定之遊說行為對那這部分就必須要有相關的證據對我們要注意所以說很有可能對不對這所謂的特定人士很可能就是所謂的反滲透法而且這個受遊說的受遊說者呢"},{"start":3717.833,"end":3738.063,"text":"被遊說者呢?他這有沒有處罰?如果屬實的話。對,這就是我剛剛所提到的,這個部分事實上有關於那個反滲透法的法律要件,因為是大院通過的。那我們在查查相關的國安案件過程當中,也會跟檢方跟"},{"start":3739.957,"end":3746.38,"text":"局長,其實之前我有跟您質詢過,我一直在請教您就是說中共到底會不會武力犯胎,您說您所得到的情報是目前沒有這個跡象,到目前為止還是沒有這個跡象嗎?"},{"start":3767.951,"end":3769.333,"text":"如果是說他用另外一種方式"},{"start":3785.527,"end":3802.779,"text":"比如說我剛才所提到的袁紅冰所提到的這四項先讓你台灣內部亂讓台灣內部的這個協力者跟他做配合用另外一種方式顛覆台灣有沒有可能他不是用武力也許他用的是剛剛袁紅冰所講的這四項"},{"start":3804.188,"end":3833.492,"text":"這是我們所謂的複合式威脅的一個做法事實上剛剛在進來會議室之前我也跟外面的媒體朋友說明一下我們要注意的複合式威脅大概有幾個重點我原本事實上剛剛也提到了第一個是武力的威脅跟恫嚇那第二個是透過海上的灰色地帶來凸顯中共在台灣水域的管轄權把台海內海化第三個就是對台灣的政治的滲透那第四個就是認知作戰的操作那這個大概是我們面臨到中共複合式威脅主要的樣子所以看起來台灣真的是面臨一個非常嚴峻的考驗"},{"start":3833.652,"end":3834.273,"text":"接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢"},{"start":3864.805,"end":3865.106,"text":"蔡主席"},{"start":3876.584,"end":3897.35,"text":"局長在這個我想520賴總統就職之後那中國在我們看到在5月23號在台海周遭其實就這個發動了所謂聯合力艦的大規模的軍演那上一次當然我們看到比較大規模的軍演是2022年的培洛西議長來台的時候"},{"start":3899.671,"end":3924.711,"text":"但這兩次的軍演我們看到當然它的範圍其實不太一樣在2022年的時候其實比較多是聚焦在台海中線那這一次我們看到包括這個紅色的色塊尤其是更變本加厲是在我們離島的地區我們看到在2022年的時候針對離島地區是比較少的但這一次非常聚焦在我們的離島地區"},{"start":3927.969,"end":3944.963,"text":"這些區塊我們現在看到包括金門、馬祖、東營之前在金門才發生了中國漁船的問題其實造成很大的灰色地帶的爭端那看起來"},{"start":3946.804,"end":3973.915,"text":"中國對我們離島我覺得明目張膽的這個動客其實態勢很明確那我們看一下這是前日本駐中國的武官小元凡斯那他其實有說中國軍方有對台灣展開海上封鎖的軍事計畫目的是要顯示他們能夠迅速的行動奪取台灣離島地區下一張那也包括我們看到幾個包括美國智庫的專家"},{"start":3975.322,"end":3984.373,"text":"那講到中國軍人新的焦點是孤立台灣離島就這部分我想問這個局長你們掌握到什麼程度"},{"start":3985.571,"end":4010.973,"text":"對,就像委員剛剛所提出來的這一次的演習跟工軍過往的演習有一個差別性過去主要是集中在台灣的周邊海空域那這一次的演習所宣布的有九個的演習區域他除了台灣本島以外還包括我們的外離島像是金門、馬祖、烏丘跟東營那特別在演習的期間他動員到海警的編隊有在相關的水域來進行執法的巡查的一個演練的活動"},{"start":4011.773,"end":4027.058,"text":"主要的目的就是在於凸顯他在台海地區的管轄權跟執法權有點要把台海內海化的這種意圖在裡面所以這部分我們會特別的在加強跟海巡署之間的一個溝通聯繫透過情報的分享來提醒到中共活動的動態"},{"start":4028.098,"end":4054.98,"text":"局長如果今天這個中共他們一個重要的目的跟戰略是要孤立台灣的離島或者是以離島作為一個灰色地帶的戰略的標的的話那我們大家都知道其實要攻佔一個區域或孤立一個區域其實很重要的是必須截斷他們的通訊對那就你們現在的這個情報在可以講的範圍內"},{"start":4057.668,"end":4085.92,"text":"中國有沒有要截斷我們離島通訊的計畫因為這問題之前也在委員會這邊有跟委員報告跟討論過在過去這兩三年裡面大概中共去截斷了我們臺馬之間的海底電纜已經有二十幾次的次數那次數非常的一個頻密那所以假如說透過一個海底電纜的一個截斷的方式那確實會對於我們海島外離島的一個通訊的安全造成一些危害局長這是我為什麼一直在"},{"start":4087.04,"end":4097.912,"text":"委員會裡面一直要跟國安局來詢問這個原因對這個題目的原因之前我在5月1號的時候其實我也我想問過蔡局長也包括國土辦對"},{"start":4099.758,"end":4117.083,"text":"那這次再加上這次523的這次演習之後看到他們其實對我們離島這個聚焦的態勢所以我要問這個局長你在5月1號答詢的時候你有很清楚的表達你覺得台馬海欖跟其他的國內海欖"},{"start":4118.763,"end":4147.652,"text":"的功能跟定位你覺得不同所以你認為應該列入到CI那現在你說你要回去溝通那經過了大概快一個月的時間那你們現在溝通的狀況怎麼樣上次在跟委員討論過程當中我們從國安的角度來講確實認為外離島的通訊安全跟韌性非常的重要那委員在上次表達這個關注之後那我們在會後也跟行政院的相關的單位特別是國土辦"},{"start":4148.212,"end":4170.117,"text":"有做一些討論那國土辦事在5月15號就像委員在螢幕上所顯示的資料一樣有召開跨部會的會議來進行協調討論議題就是要把外離島的這些海底電纜列為是國家的關鍵基礎設施那但過程當中還在做相關的評估而在會議當中我們國安局一定會來表達對於這些通訊安全跟韌性的重視"},{"start":4171.117,"end":4193.342,"text":"所以這場會議你們有參與?對,我們有派員參與那現在這場會議之後的方向是什麼?大概就是往加強重視外離島的海嵐安全的方向在規劃那就你知道會把臺滿海嵐列入CI嗎?目前朝這個方向在規劃那至少包括不只是CI也許是CCI也就是Conditional Critical Infrastructure"},{"start":4194.122,"end":4214.07,"text":"也就是它是一個準或類CI的概念來維護外離島的海嵐安全往這方向在規劃局長我覺得你們應該要非常非常堅持從國家安全的本位在從國家安全的本位裡面坦白說我真的到目前為止聽不出來有任何理由可以不把台馬海嵐列入CI"},{"start":4215.39,"end":4242.961,"text":"不管是各層級的演練或者是相關的維護計畫包括現在中共對於我們在離島這樣子的關注甚至聚焦有可能大家看到前面的這些國際的軍事的專家的這樣子的提醒我實在是想不出任何一點理由可以不把它列入CIA當然今天速發部沒有在現場但我要請局長我覺得你們一定要堅持你們安全的本位"},{"start":4244.541,"end":4271.428,"text":"這個事情從安全的本位來告訴其他的主管部會不要再從這種想要便宜形式的角度來看待這個事情這是我下面一個想要跟局長討論的問題其實我們看到列入Ci的話有幾個非常重要的重點是他定期評估風險威脅及弱點然後撰寫計劃書定期核實實際的執行成效這是現在我們為什麼要列入Ci下一張那"},{"start":4274.308,"end":4299.578,"text":"這個我們要求幾個相關部要求相關部會要提安全防護計畫那第一集的話送行政院第二集第三集送主管機關那各自有各自演練的成績可是局長我要請問其實我們知道現在中共對我們的各種軟的硬的攻擊其實它也不斷的在轉變那現在就國安局的角度有沒有跟我們這些相關的主管部會"},{"start":4300.518,"end":4312.651,"text":"有什麼樣的合作的機制?對,這大概分兩個面向一個部分是行政院有召開國土安全的跨部會協調會報是由行政院的副院長主持那本局會派我們的副局長去參加相關的會報來在會議當中跟各部會來溝通協調相關CI維護的一個"},{"start":4319.458,"end":4339.77,"text":"我們會特別從國安的角度來提醒各單位要注意這個重點這是第一個平台第二個平台是國安局本身有我們的國家情報協調的機制那在這個平台我們會邀請國土辦來參加相關的討論那我們會分享現在國際上在防範CI的相關的整備作業的重點在哪裡那也來提醒各部會應該要注意到這樣的發展趨勢"},{"start":4340.711,"end":4366.787,"text":"希望我這邊會特別想要提這件事情主要是因為我知道其實你們相對於其他的部會相對於國土辦或相對於主管機關其實你們有一個別人沒有的東西其實就是關於你的情報資訊對其實這個情報資訊對於其他主管機關來說他要做各種防範或演練的計畫或者是風險管理的計畫來說他必須先知道可能會有的攻擊樣態是什麼這個事情的資訊是來自於情報"},{"start":4368.809,"end":4374.255,"text":"所以如果其他主管機關對於中共或者是對於我們的"},{"start":4376.734,"end":4402.226,"text":"敵對勢力他們的攻擊樣態不熟悉、不了解、陌生的時候其實你可以想像他寫的防護計畫的效果有效性其實是非常非常差的所以我當然希望說其實這個部分是要請國安局來跟其他部會甚至不是只是在這個會議上面提出而已其實是應該是要有一個情報提供的工作計畫這個情報提供工作計畫裡面協助我們的主管機關"},{"start":4403.767,"end":4429.979,"text":"並期的review到底他們設想的會受到威脅會受到攻擊的情境的更新這才有可能去進一步去修改他們的防護計畫我想這個工作的流程是今天為什麼一直想要在這邊一直提醒局長的原因那我自己是希望說可能不只是在那個會報上面提出來而已如果這個目前其實幾個部會來跟公安局來要求相關的提"},{"start":4431.359,"end":4459.95,"text":"這個情報或情資的提供目前狀況怎麼樣事實上除了剛剛講的兩個主要的協調匯報的機制以外在每一天的工作階層的互動當中也都有很多的專案小組那國安局有被邀請的話我們一定是堅持我們的國安專業那也把國際社會相關防護CI的作業樣態來提供給各部會來做參考那行政院他們也會規劃比如像精華演習來針對關鍵設施的防護做必要的演練跟協調那這部分我們會提供我們的意見"},{"start":4461.191,"end":4483.246,"text":"這部分再麻煩局長我覺得跟其他主管機關因為我其實問了一些主管機關相關他們防護計畫或者對於被攻擊樣態的情境的設定坦白說因為他們不在場我就不多說但我聽起來是有點令人擔心的他們對於對方可能會攻擊或威脅我們的各種做法"},{"start":4484.468,"end":4485.008,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":4527.095,"end":4529.222,"text":"主席有請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":4536.54,"end":4538.862,"text":"國安局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員"},{"start":4561.758,"end":4561.858,"text":"主席"},{"start":4576.377,"end":4595.544,"text":"2024A立建演習我們從媒體、從客觀、從工情、從不同的管道我們收斂產生出來的結果讓大家來分享一下第一個各位看一下這張圖是一張衛照圖套和、套疊了台灣有臨海基線"},{"start":4596.644,"end":4618.691,"text":"有12海里,還有在我們東邊日本的雲南國島、宮古島那些相關的基地以及海峽中線這張圖,如果我們參與重要會議的國安包括陸委、包括國防部、如果國安局甚至是其他部會,我們沒有一個基礎的共同圖像"},{"start":4619.411,"end":4619.551,"text":"全體委員會發言委員會報告"},{"start":4648.885,"end":4676.798,"text":"根據公情公開顯示我們國軍掌握的各個演習區域包括水面艦包括海警包括空中的機那這個動作出來報紙有燈那麼各個不同領域的人有不同的解讀我們再看下一張這張是大範圍的圖就是不只是台海的周遭包括南海包括東海"},{"start":4679.482,"end":4695.115,"text":"民航的航線503航線中共發布的演習區當時的整個大區域的氣象因為颱風要來了這次國防部公布的操演區"},{"start":4696.769,"end":4718.913,"text":"我們通通經過校正可是國防部是我們是非常肯定國軍能夠保持他的操演兵力就說都拒止在24里之外但是國防部標示出來的他的演習區跟中共發布的區域範圍如果用圖形比較套疊發現就是有不一樣的地方這個不談對錯所以產生的結果"},{"start":4722.074,"end":4749.767,"text":"我們根據CSIS對公布的馬上做了一篇左邊是中共發布的那麼右邊是我們國防部發布的所以範圍有所落差那麼如果以局裡面的角色來看把兩個圖套疊我們就知道內部我們的解釋為什麼要產生這個落差是因為是反制媒體戰或者是心理戰或者有其他的這個文攻武嚇他的作為可以幫忙做解套"},{"start":4750.507,"end":4764.862,"text":"所以精準圖資正確判斷智慧用兵要操之在我那下面呢我們就用方法論收斂的方法來解釋這次的演習我們先看東部戰區發言人講是他是檢驗戰區聯合作戰的實戰能力"},{"start":4768.325,"end":4791.018,"text":"演練的項目,聯合凱空戰備警行,聯合奪取戰場,綜合控制權,聯合驚打要害目標等一體化的聯合作戰,這是在中共來講實際上是許多年度演習計劃的,這個並不代表是他的犯台計劃,但是是文攻武嚇的一個手段跟方法,所以我們看他的本質、特徵、核心、目標"},{"start":4792.861,"end":4796.114,"text":"他的基礎是什麼?他三個步驟以戰役規則實現整體的"},{"start":4798.652,"end":4799.372,"text":"以戰術的規則來驗證末端的監控"},{"start":4825.831,"end":4854.153,"text":"要計劃制定聯合作戰的行動規則那麼活用規則控制作戰行動這就到底下末端的小部隊那這一次出來的部隊規模實際上並不大我們講到灰色地帶它這個執行聯合力艦2024A的它的原則是不設限沒有發布禁航區沒有影響到國際航道也沒有動手也沒有實彈射擊做海上的臨檢"},{"start":4855.424,"end":4873.367,"text":"那麼是統戰的策略灰色地帶的行動隔離封鎖、武力攻台三項行動這是他的念頭他的想法將來會做常態不定期穿插行動就是變成四個new normal常態化可是如果我們沒有一個共同的基礎圖像"},{"start":4874.724,"end":4894.805,"text":"不同的單位,比方講我們在國安會開會,國防部、國安局或者陸委會、外交部,你沒有一個共同圖像,是各個參謀提供你長官你的論述解答,就是論述方法你可能套疊出來的現象並不是一個coherent,不能夠統一的。"},{"start":4896.158,"end":4913.889,"text":"同樣我們常常講對方利用灰色地帶行動灰色地帶的行動基本上就是避免軍事衝突但是威懾武嚇產生消耗型無止境的消耗戰反過來檢討我們自己的灰色是什麼第一個法律不周延"},{"start":4915.585,"end":4939.858,"text":"這個是1982年的聯合國海洋法公約第一版就是美國在海洋法公約裡面的執法的論述跟無害通過innocent passage跟我們中華民國的要求是不一致的那同樣對於南海的這個定義以我們的當年的政府的論述跟美方的解讀也有落差我不談對錯那至於呢"},{"start":4941.038,"end":4960.794,"text":"反介入與國際理論因為很多的國家包括我們的海軍現在都有這本叫CuseUnplanned Encounters at Sea那這個是Unclassified你都可以看得到所以利用這本裡面的內容透過魔法透過國防部"},{"start":4962.964,"end":4985.928,"text":"外交部以及陸委會大家對這上面有一個共同的認知我想對於局裡面對長期的情勢判斷是有幫助的那麼演習時間雖然只有兩天他是中央軍委會下面中部戰區檢視解放軍執行海空聯合戰備巡邏聯合奪取戰場綜合的控制以及聯合精準打擊的能力"},{"start":4987.227,"end":5011.779,"text":"他是在持續精進在練習但是不是犯台計劃那另外就是結合了海警這個執法行動聯合巡邏快速反應應變處理這個比較面臨挑戰就是我們講Law Enforcement我們的海巡署跟對方我們希望在Law End的部分還是要保持能夠對話溝通就像用Cuse一項所以我們看到"},{"start":5013.564,"end":5039.371,"text":"外面的一般的情報或者是公情或者媒體的報導講述的就是要全程演練奪島演練這是不正確的那實際上它是給我們不停的施壓那後面的科目也會不一樣所以它實際上做的是一種表象的認知認知作戰那我們就不要被認知作戰誤導去做誤判下面各位看這個"},{"start":5042.689,"end":5066.09,"text":"這個是國安部的公佈的圖實際上這個下面就是我們長年來面臨到的中共的文攻武嚇上兵伐謀不戰而屈人之逼其次伐交不只是斷你的國家的友邦同時包括你的海欄對外聯絡這個是communication那其次伐兵"},{"start":5067.281,"end":5093.906,"text":"就是消耗你的戰力去看看你的作戰計畫是不是周延完整最後才是所謂的攻擊兩棲進犯實際上他只是威者武嚇軍演困台持續利誘國際孤立美中角力的過程中持續施壓他希望動搖你的國家生存重心剛才很多同仁講到了就是說這個想定我們國家沒有想到那個想定沒有想到"},{"start":5095.165,"end":5110.219,"text":"我特別要提醒就是如果我們沒有一個JCOP如果由貴局來提供那麼在國安會層級包括行政院的國土安全部比方講現在所有的高壓電塔、超高壓配線"},{"start":5111.42,"end":5138.67,"text":"在辦公室有這些圖嗎?我相信他們有電話協調的時候說隆起的配電廠超高壓345千伏161千伏幾個變電器跳掉了什麼時候能夠修復?沒有人能回答國土辦也不會回答所以我們來看一下模擬的一個scenario我們今年在3月14、15以政大國關中心我在那邊是諮詢委員"},{"start":5141.315,"end":5158.761,"text":"這個亞太安全中心我們辦了一個國際性的兵棋推演那麼國外參加的人員有60位27個是來自耶魯大學的資深的教授研究員我們看一下一個想定發展出來這次中共所謂的用遠程的火箭兵這火箭軍導彈"},{"start":5162.079,"end":5187.789,"text":"如果兩席要進犯但是沒有做所有的演習的過程中間所謂的競為所及毀斷斷你這點真正他要目的是什麼呢就是在後面那個圈圈他的目標是在48小時、72小時貪玩你的民生社會結構、電力系統、燃油、海嵐、通訊剛剛都講了銀行、金融性、飲水、化工、電子、空中運輸、地面運輸"},{"start":5189.229,"end":5216.075,"text":"醫療體系我們怎麼樣恢復可能貴局在這個題目上面集合大家把這個問題找出來在這個問題能夠找到最好的solution強化我們的社會韌性另外再來談國軍的防禦那這個東西我很願意跟貴局的研究人員做一個討論提供一個方法論因為這裡面還要結合資料庫如果大家只是取單一現象單一的scenario想定就來問問題"},{"start":5217.656,"end":5233.859,"text":"這個時候找不到一個解決的方案以上的這個東西請提供局長參考看局長有什麼意見好 謝謝委員提供非常專業對於這次共軍演習的分析那在整個的共軍演習的過程當中事實上就像委員剛所提到的"},{"start":5234.219,"end":5254.014,"text":"重點是在於恫嚇,他並不是要起戰。那同時除了軍事上演訓的恫嚇以外,我們也把關注的重點放在他們海上灰色地帶的操作,特別是在外離島的水域。那另外還有就是認知作戰的操作。這一次在演習的兩天的過程當中,那中共的認知作戰大概聚焦在幾個部分,這包括到伊美。"},{"start":5254.574,"end":5255.195,"text":"我們共同努力"},{"start":5286.135,"end":5287.357,"text":"有請我們蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":5309.312,"end":5336.438,"text":"好謝謝主席黃國仁早好早這個有關於剛剛你所提的恫嚇的一個這個字眼裡面來講話我想這8年來都一直是常態性的已經有這樣的一個動作跟行為我覺得今天在剛剛前一段時間有看到那個媒體媒體特別有報導就是說共青"},{"start":5339.707,"end":5356.024,"text":"我個人覺得懷疑的就是一個對台獨分裂勢力獨抹行徑的懲罰這一個字眼是不是就是"},{"start":5357.318,"end":5369.102,"text":"意味著就是對台獨的一個動向才會有這樣的一個恫嚇那當然在聯合歷屆的2024驚艷的期間為5月23到5月24由東部戰區組織兵力解放軍部隊包含陸海空"},{"start":5380.285,"end":5401.009,"text":"及火箭無警部隊包含海警警船是結合軍事及執法單位的聯合行動演習地點位於在臺灣本島北南東及金門馬祖烏丘東營的周邊所以這一次的軍議院規劃可能有兩種的狀況那這兩種狀況本席認為國安局能夠來做一個說明"},{"start":5408.371,"end":5436.062,"text":"第一對賴總統就職演說後才著手規劃的經驗中共三天內就可以完成規劃動員其各軍種配合演練這對我們而言是一個嚴重的警訊代表共軍的突襲能力提升第二是中共早就預備好兵力的"},{"start":5438.675,"end":5466.036,"text":"要經驗那麼國安局及各情勢單位應該早有掌握情勢若不知道情勢就會失職但若是知道情勢卻沒有先向民眾預告的原因是什麼之前選舉期間連衛星飛過都要發警報這一次如果預先公開共青可能經驗的消息"},{"start":5467.298,"end":5484.559,"text":"就可以打擊共青的認知作戰所以這個局長你來說明一下這是國人現在有很多的疑問跟問號你來做一個說明好不好大概幾個面向跟委員做一些補充的說明第一個是大概在二合一選舉之後"},{"start":5485.58,"end":5502.081,"text":"我們就對中共可能對於台灣各種施壓的動作各種的方案有做過一些評估那基本上的評估我們認為在總統大選到520就職之間中共對台的施壓有可能透過這些常態式的軍演來以中度的來對我們施壓"},{"start":5504.484,"end":5528.442,"text":"另外在520之後我記得也是在上次貴委員會報告說明的時候有提到520之後要注意的是因為6月到10月甚至有時候到11月的第一週是中共例行軍演的熱季那這個階段會不會再有相關運用常態例行的軍演來對台灣有一些針對性的軍事演訓的動作那這是我們在看整個時間架構上認為要注意的重點"},{"start":5530.342,"end":5555.288,"text":"中共在這次軍演過程當中有去宣傳說它是在懲毒或打毒可是也要說明一下在520的就職演說當中我們總統大概延續了還是既有的維持現狀的兩岸政策的基調跟路線中共在批評的所謂的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬那事實上也是在蔡前總統的四大堅持裡面的第二項堅持也就是說相關的論述並沒有出現新的改變"},{"start":5556.088,"end":5574.365,"text":"但是中共在這種情況之下國內外社會對於相關的就職演說普遍肯定的情況之下還有這場軍演那我們認為他主要的目的是在對內做宣傳對外做宣示他對台海情況擁有相關的主控權那這可能是他的政治目的至於預判的部分委員剛剛關心到我們有事前情緒的預判這個齁"},{"start":5576.755,"end":5595.124,"text":"我們在過去歷任的總統的就職時間點就是他就職的時候尤其是那一總統就職的時候在時間點上就很敏感第二天就會經營了所以按照這種的預判"},{"start":5598.248,"end":5625.875,"text":"是不是就是會剛剛所提的這個所謂的獨抹的一個因素所以這個就是一個警訊那另外就是賴總統上任之後兩岸局勢不會和緩甚至可能會更嚴峻本席建議國安局系統應該配合陣戰在保護情報來源的前提之下以專業判斷而非政治決策"},{"start":5627.082,"end":5645.709,"text":"檢視什麼樣的一個情資可以向民眾公開,如此才能讓國人信任對國安的團隊的運作,是不是?是,是這樣沒有錯。這是上次在貴院來做提報,我們特別去警示到中共後續可能的軍事演訓跟複合式威脅的動態,有。"},{"start":5648.05,"end":5665.851,"text":"那我不知道你們這邊有沒有一個情資在20就是聯合立建的2024A的經驗關係的情資有沒有發現到發現到什麼解放軍的信息資源部隊已經在其中"},{"start":5667.369,"end":5686.061,"text":"那過去裡面的這個今年的事業撤銷到戰略支援部隊現在改為成立一個信息支援部隊但是據我們瞭解在今年的過程裡面他就在其中的一個支援部隊你們有沒有掌握這個信息"},{"start":5686.881,"end":5709.761,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下因為中共的戰略支援部隊在稍早剛好進行改組那把它改編成包括信息支援部隊網路空間部隊以及軍事航天部隊那主要的目的就是在做專業的分工那也在提升也在提升他們在進行認知作戰還有資通訊攻防作戰能力的提升所以確實有在經驗的時候是確實有"},{"start":5712.423,"end":5735.68,"text":"跟委員報告一下,在軍演的那兩天我們所收獲的相關的爭議訊息的散佈確實有比較嚴重一點。比較嚴重?有,有。對不對?對。所以,現在的這個戰略支援部隊現在改為這個信息的支援部隊。對。那所以在戰略支援的部隊可能參與本次的青年,若是真的我們應該透過"},{"start":5737.205,"end":5753.919,"text":"這一次的經驗觀察,新的單位能力,它的能力,新的能力還有它的新的功能,好不好?那另外就是,我在這一次的經驗所看到的真正目的為何?是不是為了施壓還是實戰化?"},{"start":5756.981,"end":5781.746,"text":"那中共宣稱經驗目的是要在懲戒台獨警告外部該意識力但共經這一次的經驗有實彈且一旦未發顯然其目的不是在施壓或警告更像是為後續進一步的經驗的作為預言這國安局的情報裡面千萬不要只看表面"},{"start":5782.706,"end":5801.416,"text":"所以你們要更深入的了解它後續的可能會發生的狀況你們有沒有什麼樣的一個未來要什麼樣的因應剛剛在書面報告也跟委員會的各位委員有稍微提到了他這一次的演習的代號是叫做聯合力建2024A"},{"start":5802.597,"end":5828.38,"text":"那後續會不會有系列的演習是我們關注的主要的重點那第二部分是他是一個脅迫性的軍演那也是剛剛陳委員有特別提到的他在這次的演習過程當中你可以看到他並沒有劃設進航區然後他並沒有進行實彈的演訓那同時演習的時間比起過去的兩場演習來得很短只有兩天所以你也可以看到共軍有在做一些風險管控的一個動作在裡面也就是說在施壓台灣"},{"start":5829.361,"end":5854.939,"text":"的同時也避免到情勢的過度升溫而引起國際社會的高度關注所以你們的報告裡面聯合立建的2024A可能還會有後續的B、C等國安局認為這個結合是多種的這個武裝部隊那執法單位的經驗演變這個經驗會變成常態性還是在每一年每一次都會有"},{"start":5856.72,"end":5875.074,"text":"對,對,這我們要來注意,因為它分為ABC,也許它會有系列性的分科目的各種的軍事演訓,後續還會有相關的整備跟規劃,那這也是我們後續要關注的重點,也一開始跟委員報告了,因為6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季,所以剛剛委員提醒我們會來注意。"},{"start":5875.993,"end":5891.863,"text":"所以現在的共軍的他的經驗一直把範圍一直縮小就靠近到我們這個臺海的這些戰略的一些區域所以我們特別要注意到就是因為我們現在的一個新的政府我想"},{"start":5892.483,"end":5892.503,"text":"讓國安．"},{"start":5915.954,"end":5916.614,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":5953.013,"end":5975.226,"text":"我們請國安局長請蔡局長好 謝主席 丑偉好局長好 局長我們在520之前我們有談到說中共可能會對台的一些舉措那時候我們有想到說可能會對我們的油水電一些重要的基礎建設來做一些襲擊"},{"start":5976.448,"end":5993.536,"text":"那在這一次我們看到在新竹的變電所應該是兒媒變電所嘛我相信局長應該有聽到相關的訊息那是一個不成功的嘗試那我們不可以把它直接跪就於是敵對勢力那有可能是不知道有可能是我們無法去猜測動因我們還沒有辦法找到"},{"start":5994.556,"end":5996.677,"text":"對於相關的這些便電所或者是這些重要的基礎關鍵設施臺灣有沒有相應的設備來去做這樣子的檢測跟預防"},{"start":6017.802,"end":6035.308,"text":"有這部分在上次來委員會做專案報告關鍵基礎設施防護的時候我們非常感謝委員有做一些提醒那這部分主要是由行政院的跟事業目的主管機關有做相關的一個防護的規劃那在他們規劃過程當中國安局也會提供我們的意見給他們參考"},{"start":6036.909,"end":6062.851,"text":"局長有沒有回答的問題就是說大概現在完成的比率是多少那相關的我剛剛講說紅外線警報也好那在裝設在重大的這些變電所還是這些高壓電這些相關的這些場域的話目前的達成率是到什麼程度還是只是因為這是一個單獨的個案我現在是覺得說做得很好我們成功的去避免這種重大的這種對我們電業的這種損害那我想要知道的是說目前這樣的比例是多少"},{"start":6064.385,"end":6093.365,"text":"比例的部分數字的部分我現在手上沒有資料那因為主要是由國土辦在做相關的規劃跟進度的追蹤那正如委員剛所提到的因為以這一次的個案來講確實警方可以及時來發現有這樣的闖入的動作那判斷上目的上因為那個纜線現在的市價行情好像相當不錯所以才會有這些所謂侵入性的竊取的動作這是局長認為說也有可能是因為經濟的動因嗎對有這有有一些判斷謝謝局長"},{"start":6094.045,"end":6104.974,"text":"我還是希望說作為國家情報的重要首長那我們希望是說有能夠把這一個數字上面能夠有一個期望值然後傳達給各個相關的"},{"start":6107.858,"end":6136.71,"text":"經濟部也好,或者是台電也好給他們這些相關的你們希望其他國家的這些諮詢大概是怎麼樣讓他們有往這個方向往這個方向比例然後去前進那我們就可以比較不用廣泛的說有或者是有在做有在努力但是我們沒有一個數字去管理的話這個麻煩局長可以請局內的同仁一定會有在國外研習相關的把他們這個相關的比例做出來一個訂定的標準做出來然後分享給大家因為你們不是執行單位但是你們可以把這個情報分享給大家"},{"start":6137.47,"end":6163.872,"text":"再來就是中國的大規模軍演剛才有很多我們的立委員的同仁都有提到那這一次的聯合立見2020A我們可以看到其實很多國際社會上面都有做反應那他其實比上一次裴洛西來訪台灣的時候我認為他的強度或者是跟他的密度都還是有在增強的這個趨勢不過國人已經不像上一次這麼的緊張應該說上一次也沒有特別緊張"},{"start":6165.066,"end":6189.383,"text":"那這種軍演常態化之後可是民眾生活如常我們當然非常開心但是這個民眾生活如常是因為不知道風險還是知道風險但是非常的堅韌這兩個之間我們可能國安局這邊可能可以稍作一些民調這個民意調查如果是不知道風險那作為國家的情報首長不是只有保存機密不是只有保密而已"},{"start":6190.023,"end":6210.067,"text":"還有釋放資訊我想很多人都認為說局長這個不要說局長那個不要說如果你覺得這個有機密性就不要說不對不只是如此國安局不是只有保密而已這不是保密局國安局還有把重要的資訊釋放給國人跟國際社會我們監控到什麼比方說上次"},{"start":6212.096,"end":6219.604,"text":"先國防部長邱國正的時候我們來詢問他說軍機各個機型為什麼都不把他揭示出來他說因為太多了可是為什麼這一次聯合力艦"},{"start":6221.172,"end":6250.587,"text":"我們不但釋放出來中共的軍機、機型、航空器、航海器等等因為我們讓世界知道說這是什麼樣的在緊迫的來去壓迫台灣而這一些壓迫台灣的力量就能夠讓我們作為國會議員反映給其他的美國國會跟其他跟我國相關的盟友告訴他們說現在就是台灣的安全危機就在這邊所以我們能夠爭取到更多的包含安全上面你說是這些軍事的融資也好像是最近美國國會通過的這些相關的法案也好"},{"start":6251.26,"end":6274.394,"text":"那如果沒有這些東西,怎麼樣去證明說我國面臨到這一些挑戰呢?所以,國安局也好,或者是其他各個國安相關的機構,不是只有保密而已,還有釋放出應該釋放出來的資訊給我們一般的民眾跟國際社會。所以局長想請教一下,是不是因為民眾對共軍的軍人感到麻痹,你覺得他們應該要怎麼樣去面對這樣子的?"},{"start":6278.573,"end":6293.933,"text":"提到的一個觀點我們都非常尊重也一定程度的認同過去來講國家情報機關當然我們的一些資訊有一些公情跟密情的來源會重視保密那主要的資訊的分享都是向國家的最高決策者來做報告那但是隨著整個"},{"start":6295.194,"end":6295.614,"text":"主要的目的"},{"start":6314.986,"end":6315.106,"text":"菁姐局長"},{"start":6336.687,"end":6361.833,"text":"那我很尊重局長就是在針對國會議員的答詢的時候都很努力的去回應那我想這是第一步那在戰術上面或者是說你說軍事武裝備這些可能是有它的機密性但戰略上面應該是沒有戰略上面國家的戰略的透明性是很重要的因為不是每一個民眾都曾經在都是軍官士官或者是一般的士兵"},{"start":6362.493,"end":6385.234,"text":"當然每一個人都是國防的參與者當然你要更清晰的去跟所有民眾來表達所以剛才局長有提到的這些你說灰色地帶還有各種中國的這些做法那最近有一個叫ICAT就Illegal, Aggressive, Deceptive那可以簡單的跟我們民眾講一下那現在這一個概念我們台灣是要怎麼樣回應嗎?"},{"start":6386.855,"end":6409.153,"text":"對,所謂的ICAT是美國新任的印太司令所引述他菲律賓友人的一個觀念那認為說可能面臨到中共的一個脅迫他有所謂的這個illegal、coercive跟aggressive以及那個deceptive的這種的一個樣態那老實講他應用在我們剛剛在跟委員報告的中共的複合式威脅"},{"start":6410.114,"end":6410.134,"text":"謝謝局長"},{"start":6437.54,"end":6439.261,"text":"今天是副主委嗎?請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":6457.937,"end":6474.153,"text":"副主委好副主委這次中國的軍援我有注意到陸委會第一時間已經做出回應了表達我們的強烈的抗議然後要求中方不要不斷的軍事的去挑釁那我也注意到我們有談到說用對話來取代和用對話然後"},{"start":6478.959,"end":6491.914,"text":"請問一下副主委我們接下來的論述因為同時我們會有各個不同的不管是在地協力者或者是中共上面的這些官媒都會想說"},{"start":6492.975,"end":6516.495,"text":"台灣現在又要跟中國要求他們的中國的留學生來台但同時又在對中方來做出這樣的說法那我覺得當然是中國這樣的說法是完全我們不能夠接受的但我們要怎麼樣論述就是說我們如何在面對他們威脅的時候能夠有效勇敢的站出來去做出我們該說的話但同時又能夠暢開對話的一個渠道"},{"start":6520.853,"end":6545.759,"text":"我想這一次賴總統的講話雖然中共那邊他用各種的方式來解讀但是我覺得賴總統講的基調是不變的也就是遵循中華民國憲政體制那也不用說用很多訓古學的方式去比如說有些人講說講七次九次台灣然後只有七次講這個"},{"start":6549.081,"end":6567.439,"text":"中國這樣子那對於我們來說我們的兩岸政策是一貫的不管是在歡迎陸生來臺的部分還是要推動兩岸觀光的部分我們的立場都是一貫的我們都是敞開大門現在的問題在於說中共的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":6568.801,"end":6578.98,"text":"他如果說,這其實就在一念之間他如果說願意的話,其實不管是陸生還是觀光團其實早就都可以打開了"},{"start":6580.612,"end":6608.997,"text":"那陸生跟觀光團其實那個時候都是在疫情之後然後他們把它中斷掉現在疫情結束了其實我看不出有什麼任何的理由謝謝主委謝謝副主委那把這個中方他是單獨的自己單獨的把這個惡意這個螺旋上升所以沒有存在說我們要什麼開放什麼釋放什麼而是中方自己把它關閉這樣的渠道是謝謝副主委副主委不好意思"},{"start":6609.477,"end":6632.545,"text":"主席我可不可以再請局長最後一個問題蔡局長報告局長這個因為剛才提到這個資訊的透明的部分那接下來要問一下保密的部分因為我們的資權刑事法剛剛刪讀那想請教萬一在新法的修正之下那"},{"start":6634.178,"end":6657.351,"text":"因為變成說祕密事項或者答覆的或提供資料必須要經過主席同意不然不能夠拒絕那在這樣的新法的修正之下你們要怎麼樣去應對對這部分我們會再進一步的來了解新法修訂之後未來在不管是委員會的提報那要做怎樣的一個規劃跟配合我們再跟委員會特別是召委這邊來討論"},{"start":6658.311,"end":6659.512,"text":"接下來請林柱英委員上台質詢"},{"start":6707.786,"end":6714.549,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們蔡局長跟田政次請蔡局長還有田政次謝謝主席 林委員"},{"start":6722.628,"end":6735.886,"text":"局長跟政次這個問題是不知道兩位有沒有看到有一個即時新聞是昨天的時候發出來的就是出席賴總統的就職活動澳洲有多名的議員在"},{"start":6737.668,"end":6759.246,"text":"回到他們的辦公室之後發現就收到了中國的代表處寄出了這個所謂恐嚇信件要求他們要遵守一中原則之外呢我們可以感受到的是中國戰狼式的手段似乎在520的最近動作頻頻首先我是不是先請田政次好了政次有收到這個訊息嗎"},{"start":6762.369,"end":6790.968,"text":"我們在整個統計這個520的外賓來的時候確實中國用盡了很多的方法我跟我原報告不僅澳洲不僅澳洲那麼其他的部分可能不方便說我可以跟你私下報告不僅澳洲的議員接受其他有相當多的國家受到相當嚴厲的說明要阻止他們前來"},{"start":6791.789,"end":6809.189,"text":"好 那麼我們的包括除了這個得知訊息之外有沒有什麼其他的作為又或者是這個會不會影響到520之後的相關的有關於國際上面的局勢政策怎麼研判在能夠說的範圍底下可不可以讓我們了解一下"},{"start":6810.435,"end":6825.54,"text":"這一次來的外賓來了以後其實對台灣的民主化更有更深刻的影響他們會覺得這些所謂中國用戰狼式的威脅其實是在民主國家是不起作用的"},{"start":6825.68,"end":6844.822,"text":"好言下之意這會不會影響到說接下來他們在更台面上面的交流會受到相關的遏止又或者是說其實影響性不大接下來的其他的我們相關我們知道接下來可能更大的就是有關於國慶的部分那也是剩下半年不到的時間那這些都會受到影響嗎"},{"start":6846.7,"end":6874.365,"text":"這個也是他們其中的一個方法我們除了國慶還有其他的比如說它的偉慶也是要用這個機會來怎麼樣來打擊我們在國際間的一些力道所以您說的除了澳洲之外那麼整個我們這一次出席的國家當中歐洲、亞洲那麼加起來幾乎都有受到不同等級的威脅那各自的威脅是什麼樣的樣態"},{"start":6875.998,"end":6880.381,"text":"其實我們知道這個中國的戰狼的手段跟威嚇的方式包括剛剛前面幾位委員提到的這個聯合軍演等等都是一種樣態"},{"start":6905.859,"end":6924.478,"text":"那麼在520之後對於國安局來講怎麼樣在外交上面或是國防當中能夠守住我們現在現有的這種外交上面的合作的方式國安局有一些方法跟應對的處理方式嗎或是怎麼樣跟外交部來做合作跟國防部來做合作"},{"start":6925.498,"end":6941.77,"text":"雖然我們現在面臨到中共的脅迫有比較升高的一個趨勢但是從另外一個角度來講他有提供我們跟國際社會友盟合作非常好的機會也就是說國際社會友盟他會非常關注中共在台海地區軍事活動動態"},{"start":6942.651,"end":6966.298,"text":"那台灣在這部分的情報掌聲能力算相當的不錯那我們就可以跟國際友盟來分享這方面的資訊以及中共在台海周邊水域我們剛才提到海上灰色地帶的操作那這些海上灰色地帶的操作動員到海警船或公務船進行這種執法巡查在東海水域日本很關注在南海的水域周邊國家也很關注所以這部分我們也會來加強跟相關國家的一個合作"},{"start":6966.798,"end":6994.43,"text":"另外有一個重點是在中共的軍委過程當中也會對我們的民主開放的社會來進行所謂的認知作戰操作這種假訊息那剛剛我想在外交部的書面報告當中也提到了今年因為已經或後續還有70個國家要進行相關的選舉活動那台灣在這方面怎樣來因應假訊息的攻擊來展現我們的民主的韌性那也是我們跟國際友盟在加強情報或安全合作主要的重點議題"},{"start":6995.951,"end":7008.323,"text":"政次可以先請回啦我要繼續再問蔡局長您剛剛有特別提到因為我相信國安局所掌握的就是一些情資包括剛剛我會特別問田政次的部分就是這些情資的研判跟分析的過程當中這個防範與未然是非常重要的"},{"start":7011.306,"end":7017.51,"text":"當中國的戰狼在外交上面給予許多給我們台灣不只是給我們台灣穿腳鞋之外威脅我們的邦交國或者是友邦這些民意代表的時候其實這樣的情資的訊息的給予是非常重要的但是我們也知道從昨天我們立法院通過了這個職權刑事法25條之後這是原本的法規原本的法規是認為可以避開國防、外交"},{"start":7038.101,"end":7066.648,"text":"如果說有危害那可以遵守秘密但是新修訂的法令變成是經主席同意本席其實想要提出來的是接下來什麼是秘密或不是秘密恐怕就還有另外的包括今天我們國防外交委員會的會議主席都可以來做決定但是我記得我曾經在這裡也詢問過了包括我們的各個行政機關的文件的密等是由主官可以來做認定"},{"start":7067.728,"end":7078.184,"text":"那麼這個就會產生未來這個法令如果真的要執行的時候那麼密等的密之間包括國安局這裡怎麼樣來決定這個密能不能說不說那就是藐視國會"},{"start":7083.711,"end":7110.926,"text":"說了那就違反國家機密相關的保護我先提醒我沒有要這個局長一定非回答不可但是這是一個包括國安局在內必須現在跟國安會跟國防部跟外交部必須要來審慎討論到底這個密要怎麼辦怎麼做決定尤其是如果說就像剛剛我舉的那個例子我們如果先收到了情資我們知道"},{"start":7111.926,"end":7127.237,"text":"在520或是重要包括未來10月10號的國慶的時候我們知道中國的戰狼又有新的動作的時候那這樣的機密是要在立法院做揭露嗎還是必須在主席的同意之下"},{"start":7128.607,"end":7141.985,"text":"為了國家的安全即使主席要你說你也不能說這個兩者之間有沒有啟動相關的跨部會的討論跟因應好 謝委員提醒這件事情剛剛那個陳冠廷委員也在關切這個問題那就國家機密保護法來講的話"},{"start":7145.169,"end":7172.803,"text":"當然對於絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定有它一定的授權的程序就本局來講大概就有首長有我本人來進行相關的核定那因為我們在行政部門對於機密的核等有我們的作業規範那現在就是對於立法院這邊在立委職權行事法修正之後怎麼樣來取得彼此對於機密認定的一個標準那這涉及到作業的部分那所以在法規以外在作業的部分我們會再跟大院這邊來密切的溝通特別是召委這邊來討論"},{"start":7173.763,"end":7191.019,"text":"好接下來當然我要詢問的就是有關於訊息的部分了最近有一陣子已經沉寂的所謂內容農場的臉書粉絲團又開始出現而且現在有許多的學者提醒這些名為在地粉絲團但是經營的不是台灣人"},{"start":7192.403,"end":7208.586,"text":"那我不知道國安局有沒有發現這樣的狀況而這樣的粉絲團的存在是為什麼而且這樣的粉絲團喔他基本上呢你會發現喔他寫的是咱周會旅行啦然後美景啦然後但是他居然可以PO出一樣或類似的照片"},{"start":7210.134,"end":7226.577,"text":"那這個狀況到底它的存在的目的為何?而國安局有沒有掌握到相關的形式?因為這樣的帶風向的背後有沒有國安疑慮?這我們一直有專任在關注因為社群媒體上現在主要的平台特別要注意的一個是臉書一個是YouTube"},{"start":7226.957,"end":7254.51,"text":"那在這些平台上面有一些的有問題的帳號這種所謂的有問題的帳號它可能平時所張貼的貼文都是風花雪月可是到了一個特別的政治時刻或軍演的時刻它開始轉貼各種替對岸來做文宣或正義訊息散播的一個平台或帳號那我們會透過我們的一些大數據還有AI的技術來針對這些有問題的帳號來做追蹤那有一些帳號它假如是違反到"},{"start":7255.831,"end":7280.822,"text":"社群平台管理的規則的話那我們會請社群平台的管理者把這些有問題的帳號來移除所以這部分我們也會去比對這些帳號它所貼的這些貼文有的是不斷的透過AI重複的複製在進行散播那這部分假如有這樣的現象的話一般來跟社群媒體的平台進行檢舉的話都會下架我記得在去年的上半年光YouTube有一個特定集團的"},{"start":7282.664,"end":7289.916,"text":"衍生的問題帳號500多個我們就透過檢舉的方式來讓他下架臉書的部分我們也是這樣處理好所以就像我剛剛特別提到的這種同樣一個"},{"start":7291.331,"end":7316.345,"text":"同一個時間點然後出現同樣的標題跟文案甚至於內容其實都是一樣的時候你們應該都有相關的訊息有持續做關注舉個例子在選舉期間也曾經有相關的一個社群媒體平台在散佈錯假的影音訊息講的是蔡前總統他的學位的問題或家族的弊案的問題"},{"start":7317.065,"end":7343.272,"text":"那這個在3個小時、4個小時之內就傳散到各個地方去甚至翻譯成20幾種語言那我們後來是透過檢舉的方式在不到17、8個小時之內全部下架好,那麼對於像這樣的相關的訊息包括連現在AI的進入有機會我再跟您來做討論但是我要提醒的另外一個是當你們做了這樣相關的下架之後因為這樣的錯假訊息其實它要擾動的是台灣的民心"},{"start":7343.892,"end":7363.912,"text":"甚至於要營造所謂的帶風向或是假訊息因為他已經出去了下架之外我還是同樣的那句話就是還是要透過其他的部會包括不論是行政院或者是主管機關的部會要把這樣的正確的訊息要重新的再公佈因為要把它列為一個認知作戰的樣態然後要除了"},{"start":7366.514,"end":7366.714,"text":"好 謝謝辛苦"},{"start":7393.952,"end":7395.433,"text":"謝謝主席我們請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":7419.284,"end":7432.235,"text":"好,謝謝主席,薛文好。好,請稍等我一下,我們要先播一段影片。好,先把聲音打開。請稍等我一下。可以嗎?好,可以看字幕啦。可以看,聲音小一點沒有關係,我們看字幕。"},{"start":7445.45,"end":7468.222,"text":"這是在一個政論節目上面繼續放好不好不好意思我們主席時間可以停一下我們這個機器上有點問題不然大家就看文字就好了"},{"start":7470.117,"end":7492.353,"text":"先是小草有些當然太陽花了占了整個活動的六成嗯我們用手機下去對畫一個年齡我們用手機下去對畫一個年齡我們用手機下去對畫一個年齡然後才到六成現在小草現在的訊號閉起來喔也不同人喔訊號閉起來喔也不同人喔那這一批人跟上次我們選舉1月13之前的選權之夜的人比對喔也沒關係"},{"start":7493.114,"end":7495.876,"text":"好,局長我想先問你有沒有看過這段影片在我播放之前"},{"start":7514.611,"end":7531.32,"text":"知道這件事情那一家民間的私人公司有沒有可能比較年齡層跟手機的移動甚至這個資料從一月參加了這個等於說總統的競選活動到留存到五月來做比對"},{"start":7532.38,"end":7554.197,"text":"這個人流的個資存量超過120天,請問要怎麼來做到?就你們國安局的角度來看。就我國安局的角度先說明一件事情。也就是說政府機關假如要跟電信業者來索取用戶的資訊的話,我們是必須要經過非常嚴謹的法律跟行政的程序。法律程序的部分必須要經過高等法院的同意。"},{"start":7554.557,"end":7570.097,"text":"那行政程序的部分必須要經過12道的行政程序的整合才可以來跟電信業者來調閱資料而且目的只能為了司法刑事案件的偵辦或國安的偵辦那至於這個案子的話事實上剛進來之前也有很多媒體記者在外面詢問這個問題"},{"start":7571.398,"end":7598.941,"text":"那因為案關的當事人我們所知道的話他已經有說明了這是市場分析的公司跟電信業者對於數據分析的一個合作計畫但因為是私人的民間商業的公司的活動那我們國安局就不適合做相關的評論所以私人的公司可以去拿到我們電信系統裡面的去識別化的資料並且在網路上面或者在實體上面販賣這是我們的國家包含我們國安局所允許的事情嗎"},{"start":7599.942,"end":7616.854,"text":"我想我們的理解來講應該電信業者他們跟一般的市場分析公司都有相關的一個計畫當然還有可能有一些識別化的行動去識別化的工作請你講話必須要負責任我們來看一下他說的說法我們忘號這個"},{"start":7619.177,"end":7639.67,"text":"這個呢他的說法是說他用了一個手機信令的資料分析方法那這個方法呢包含是新北業誕辰包含是很多的一些我們的活動都可能用這樣子的方法來分析可是這只能分析什麼這只能分析到"},{"start":7641.946,"end":7653.479,"text":"當天的人流以及年齡他沒有辦法比較不同的時間兩個活動的差異而且他是去世別花的局長你同意嗎"},{"start":7656.449,"end":7675.936,"text":"這當然要再進一步來確認不同的電信公司它可能有不同的package但是我們所有的電信公司要提供不管給廠商或者給國安單位是不是所有我們民眾要依照那個去取得是不是都要去識別化"},{"start":7677.631,"end":7693.469,"text":"去識別化是一件重要的事情吧在我們的包含是說民間上面的公司也好或者是以國安單位我們的收查也好就當你完成這些程序之後去識別化是有重要性的吧"},{"start":7695.271,"end":7699.072,"text":"所以我們可以合理的回推在法規跟政府的資料上面電信業者應該不會提供包含是年齡然後他是什麼樣的支持背景參加過哪一個區域的活動"},{"start":7717.719,"end":7721.002,"text":"對我剛才已經有說明過不同的電信業者他們對於手機數據的分析他們提出不同的方案"},{"start":7733.812,"end":7761.206,"text":"那每個業者可能的方案都不太一樣那這部分可能要再去詳細的了解一下那委員所提到的相關的狀況不同的業者他們的跟相關的市場或商業分析公司他們所分享的資訊是怎麼樣來分類的可是你們是國安局嘛所以你們應該要了解到就是說我們在這些電信業者他們跟廠商之間的配合有沒有可能流出我們建台民眾的個資甚至是去識別化的個資"},{"start":7762.568,"end":7770.261,"text":"這也是屬於國安的一部分因為他們也有可能這樣子的市場他把這些資料如果賣給中共呢?"},{"start":7771.158,"end":7795.906,"text":"你不能說今天給王逸川在電視上講可以但是如果資料留給中共呢?國安局有沒有掌握?就國安局來講我們是依照通訊保護器監察法的規範來執行我們相關的業務至於民間的商業行為有沒有可能相關的資訊有涉及到洩漏民眾各自的部分我覺得這一部分通訊業者、電信業者應該還是要遵照我們國家相關的法律"},{"start":7796.266,"end":7799.028,"text":"假如有這種狀況的話我們當然會介入來關注那你們有沒有研究過嗎?在這個議題上你們過去有沒有研究過嗎?"},{"start":7821.904,"end":7840.864,"text":"這個部分可能也涉及到電信業者他自己本身對於一些法規規範的基礎我關注的是國安局對這件事情類似的事件的發生有沒有研究過以及可能販售到中國大陸或者是其他國家的可能性你們有沒有做過這樣子的調查"},{"start":7842.105,"end":7862.593,"text":"直通信安全的關注本局會予以來重視但是有關於電信業者的管理可能還是要回歸到行政院主管機關不是電視那個部分我會另外去了解但我們今天要問的是國安局有沒有去掌握你剛剛所說的電信業者可能會販售去識別化的資訊給他人"},{"start":7864.393,"end":7879.148,"text":"這個他人今天可以是王逸傳明天可以是中國大陸後天可以是美國或其他國家這當然是你國安局應該要列管的業務之一而你們過去有沒有針對這個部分做過研究我剛剛已經說明過了針對我們國內的電信安全所以他們有沒有在賣"},{"start":7883.912,"end":7886.074,"text":"所以他們有沒有在賣?所以你們有沒有抓到過?你們有沒有抓到過或你們有沒有警告過?"},{"start":7899.204,"end":7919.895,"text":"有沒有類似這樣子的訊息外流到中國大陸所以套用電信業者基地台定位手機使用者的技術你們有沒有了解過是不是在防疫期間推動的電子智慧威力監控系統而導出的有沒有這種可能性"},{"start":7920.615,"end":7921.196,"text":"最後我要提到一個"},{"start":7935.572,"end":7957.097,"text":"王逸川的說法是可以比較的是年齡參加的活動甚至時間超過一百多天那請問局長你認為他是在唬爛造謠還是確確有可能有這樣的事實有沒有違法如果有違法的話哪一個單位會把他送涉違法或者是以個資法提告"},{"start":7958.004,"end":7985.72,"text":"對他的講法我們再來了解到底是他個人的一個媒體上的一個吸引注意的說法那還是有實際的已經有涉及到違法的樣態這是我們的注意那如果今天他所說的東西經過你們的調查之後卻有歧視而他在政論節目上直接講出來他擁有一個民主進步黨的政策會執行長擁有我們國家趣事別化的人民的資料"},{"start":7986.22,"end":8004.531,"text":"總統："},{"start":8004.651,"end":8018.704,"text":"委員的推論但我提醒委員的是這些電信業者他都有電信相關法規必須要遵守假如有向委員提出這個問題的話我們的行政的相關的主管機關一定可以進行裁罰的一定可以進行裁罰但是問題是說因為我們今天問的是你是國安局那你當然你要針對這個事情去調查因為我們不是司法警察機關你們要去了解"},{"start":8031.215,"end":8059.137,"text":"因為今天他可以去賣給我假設是用賣的你剛剛說的他可以去賣給王一川他可以去賣給民進黨那相關的電信業者他能不能夠去賣給中共?能不能?有沒有可能?對,所以我剛剛所提到的假如電信業者有這種違法的狀況的話那當然可以來算所以你們會不會去研究這部分到底是屬實還是假的嗎?各種的樣態我剛剛一開始有提到我們會去針對不同的樣態來做可能的評估"},{"start":8059.858,"end":8078.251,"text":"假如真的有這樣的具體的違法的狀況的話,會不會來授請司法機關的注意?什麼時候會提出評估,到底確認說有沒有電信公司在販賣甚至流出給其他的國家,甚至是我們應該要跟我們敵對的國家,什麼時候?給我一個時間"},{"start":8080.792,"end":8080.812,"text":"好,謝謝謝偉"},{"start":8112.127,"end":8115.751,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王定宇委員上台諮詢好 謝謝主席麻煩局長請蔡局長"},{"start":8141.73,"end":8158.84,"text":"局長早,最近中國的軍演到了一個段落,有一些現象要請教國安局在情報掌握上有沒有一些研析跟判斷。第一個,這個比較奇特,在中國的對台軍演期間,"},{"start":8159.921,"end":8174.189,"text":"那他有一艘4463噸級的聯合起瑞號在東海沉沒那個區域是在他對台軍演的區域外大概在浙江的舟山的東北角這個位置"},{"start":8174.989,"end":8193.436,"text":"那這個拖船是半潛式的,它屬於錠毛拖船,那主要工作是在打撈,或者是拖重型的船隻。那5月24號7點02分,它突然間大轉彎,降速,然後大概花了一個小時的時間,AIS就不見了。"},{"start":8195.899,"end":8213.151,"text":"國安局對這個事情有沒有一些判斷?對,我們有注意到這件事情。對,一來是時間的敏感性,那二來是他沉默的水域,也正如委員所講的,我們在比對之後,發現是他在演習的區域的外面。那至於事故的原因我們還在了解。這個是屬於資源型傳知,因為這種半層潛勢的船,"},{"start":8218.604,"end":8246.567,"text":"四千多噸當然中國還有軍規更大型的它有它特定的功能那就是在那裡發生這個事情連中國他們自己內部都在議論紛紛所以國安局在情報的掌握上有沒有判斷說這個船袋出了什麼問題對,原因我們還在瞭解原因還在瞭解所以確實沉在那裡是有這個沉船的事件那它這個船沉船之後中國那邊有沒有什麼異常的舉動有,他們有進行一些相關的打撈那事實上在"},{"start":8247.608,"end":8248.869,"text":"那這個無人機應該是從船艦上起飛的?"},{"start":8270.472,"end":8270.792,"text":"海底的水文"},{"start":8291.503,"end":8316.584,"text":"地形地貌那個其實都重要的軍事資料所以今天你剛才講的那一架無人機在今天早上掉下來不不不前幾天在演習之前也在演習當中嘛對演習前幾天掉了但我們還是有注意到我們還是有注意到那他們也是把那個區域沒有封鎖他就派海調船到周邊去巡邏把它找出來所以你們現在目前還在判斷到底發生什麼事情對那我問一個更早之前的2023年8月22號"},{"start":8320.627,"end":8344.898,"text":"當時是英國的每日郵報他引述了英國政府資訊當然這個引述是否為真我覺得要查證但當時包含美國包含英國包含一些智庫人說中國一艘093型也就是雙級的核子動力潛艇在他們黃海軍演的時候突然間不見了"},{"start":8345.95,"end":8361.238,"text":"然後呢也在中國內部傳出說一堆家屬說該回港了怎麼沒有休假都沒回來後來他們艦隊的司令也受到懲處當然理由不會用這個當理由當時也有美國的專門測核訊號的"},{"start":8364.54,"end":8383.692,"text":"相關的偵察機貼近飛行到那個區域那個是在2023年8月22號中共的黃海軍演這一艘商級的093核子動力潛艇後來一直到現在這件事情都沒有任何新的進度至少我看到的是沒有國安局有沒有去了解這個事情"},{"start":8385.148,"end":8400.545,"text":"好,老實講有啦,有了解啦。然後,大概的判斷是,應該不是嚴重的沉船事件,但有發生一些事故。因為這艘船,動九山的這艘商級潛艦,它的後續的位置我們都有掌握。"},{"start":8401.926,"end":8430.606,"text":"講到這裡就好了你後面不能講太多不能講太多所以事實上中國對台軍演窮兵獨舞當然讓人家厭惡任何人威脅到我們家園的人我們不會高興的就像我們在住家的時候有人會去擒保權有人會設巡邏箱有人會加護聯防有人會設區巡守隊其實國家跟家園差不多就是我們怕有流氓來威脅我們家所以怎麼提高自我防衛能力"},{"start":8431.326,"end":8454.232,"text":"怎麼樣提高預警能力然後有狀況的時候有好鄰居可以來幫忙有公權力可以介入中國這樣子的灰色地帶的壓迫或者是軍事威脅從韓國、日本、台灣到呂宋島、菲律賓甚至連澳洲的達爾文港的北邊都有發生類似的情形所以"},{"start":8455.352,"end":8476.412,"text":"這樣子的軍演損人不利己那中國想不開他的事情我們還是要做好這件事情我接下來就教這一次的軍演因為我們今天國防部沒有來那中國動用兵力的狀況也就是說規模科目還有他軍演的強度國安局的評估是什麼"},{"start":8477.242,"end":8500.776,"text":"對,我們就兵力規模來看並沒有比2023的聯合力艦或2022八月的培洛西訪台的聯合軍演來的大他這一次有沒有實彈,好像沒有沒有實彈沒有實彈啊對,跟我們說明一下他這一次沒有實彈因為俄羅斯那一次發射11枚有2枚在架上,9枚就掉到日本的EEZ上面"},{"start":8502.457,"end":8511.265,"text":"這次的規模、科目跟強度,我是要聽聽看國安局你們情報單位的分析。兵力規模沒有比較大,範圍有比較廣,因為就裴若曦當時訪台的軍演大概劃了五個所謂的進航區,那這一次是有九個的演訓區。"},{"start":8521.974,"end":8522.574,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8551.934,"end":8576.868,"text":"因為它是由東部戰區宣布的規模沒有比較大所以動用的兵力也比較小對,然後也沒有實彈的射擊那演習的天數也比較短它增加的區域大概是外離島反介入、拒止還有一些外離島的部分那它在外離島的部分有沒有什麼樣實質的軍事行動有,主要是動用了海巡的"},{"start":8580.07,"end":8603.471,"text":"編組編隊有在外離島周邊做一些所謂的執法巡查的動作所以這是比起過去演習比較沒有科目有沒有什麼不一樣科目差不多科目主要還是做聯合封控聯合火力打擊聯合的巨石外軍以及聯合登陸作戰但是在這一次的聯合登陸作戰他投入的這個運作比較小只有在東部有一個比較小規模的操演"},{"start":8604.071,"end":8631.073,"text":"所以你們判斷起來他這一次的強度、規模、動用、兵力都明顯比以往低就國安局的研判原因是什麼?軍事上的、政治上的你們的研判是什麼?對,謝謝委員提到這個問題就是說在軍事上我們剛剛講到有幾個特點第一個特點是他快速的動員這一次的演習第二個特點是在於他動用了海警船隻的編隊來做相關的演訓那第三個特點我剛才也跟其他委員提到了"},{"start":8632.173,"end":8652.04,"text":"爭議訊息的操作在這兩天非常非常的頻密那這大概是在軍事上恫嚇的一個主要的動作現在從俄烏戰爭也看得出來假錯訊息搞不好比飛彈先行是他會伴隨著這個是Hybrid Warfare這種合作戰我請梁文傑副主委一起上來我待會一併問所以你們的判斷你繼續說"},{"start":8653.901,"end":8673.888,"text":"對,那這大概是這次軍事演習的主要的一個樣態那我們後續會比較關注的是在於這種海上灰色地帶的操作會不會也變成是常態化因為在東海以及在南海那中共的這些海警或公務船隻他確實有這種海上灰色地帶的操作你們政治上的判斷是什麼?"},{"start":8674.548,"end":8677.69,"text":"所以這一次有稍微比較克制一點感覺上是這樣 對那個梁文傑副主委就是說這一次"},{"start":8700.928,"end":8720.28,"text":"那個局長可以先請回啦我最後請教因為我這邊這個網友也整理了中共黨政軍也就是他們的媒體他媒體大概就是一條一條邊啦大概聲量那個聲調都差不多啦剛才循著剛才的問題從他這一次對台軍演的規模科目強度不若以往"},{"start":8721.221,"end":8732.14,"text":"然後我們再看看他的黨政軍官媒的回應陸委會怎麼評估中共在520我們總統交接之後他的反應你們有什麼樣判斷"},{"start":8734.892,"end":8755.989,"text":"他的反應應該是逐步增強的就是說在520當天之後然後當天晚上應該是就由國台辦發言人這邊來發出一個新聞稿那之後就是21號、22號連續的國台辦的新聞稿然後有人民日報的評論、新華社的評論等等然後到23號就開始演習"},{"start":8765.276,"end":8779.931,"text":"你剛才講的逐步增強是指這個區間嗎?520到524嗎?對在後續我們入行的判斷呢?應該是這樣講就是說它的文攻跟武嚇的部分基本上我們看到的是到524之後"},{"start":8782.933,"end":8807.402,"text":"算是有趨緩的現象那當然今天禮拜三是國台辦的記者會現在正在開那所以又開始做了一些批評但是我們認為現在的這個批評大概就是重複上個禮拜的國台辦大概還是老調重談不過他不批評反而比較奇怪但我剛才從國安局到陸委會"},{"start":8808.743,"end":8815.737,"text":"聽到了就是認為這一次他後來是趨緩或者用克制這兩個字是你們認為原因是什麼"},{"start":8817.203,"end":8843.278,"text":"我想他的這個軍演的目的當然是屬於對他就是從他們理解的這個賴總統的520講話他們是對他從他們的角度來講他們的解讀是認為520的講話是他們不喜歡的那所以試圖要這樣來表示不滿但是因為目前的兩岸局勢他牽涉到非常多的因素所以這個"},{"start":8845.939,"end":8864.986,"text":"我認為他們是需要在一個可控的狀況之下他要可控我結束我這一段質詢要可控跟國際的安全網絡國際的因素有沒有關係當然有關係兩岸關係從來就是要放在國際的角度去理解的這個問題我們有機會繼續探討但是我覺得這一個區間519、520一直到524還有後續的發展"},{"start":8871.929,"end":8872.849,"text":"我們下面請馬文君委員發言"},{"start":8909.552,"end":8910.433,"text":"蔡主席蔡局長"},{"start":8921.626,"end":8937.582,"text":"因為今天有非常多的委員也非常關切就是說在我們這一次在總統就職以後中共的一個軍演其實他到底是什麼樣的目的然後他的作為還有他發展的狀況"},{"start":8940.365,"end":8959.637,"text":"因為局長在上一次質詢的時候大概5月1號吧你們曾經提到說520之後從6月到11月是中國例行的軍演的季節進入軍演熱季那國安局他關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對台灣施壓媒體報導"},{"start":8963.632,"end":8988.711,"text":"其實也提到新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中也都是基本動作那就局長的判斷這一次在520之後的三天就展開的這樣的軍演這是它的例行性的基本動作呢還是突發性的就國安局掌握的狀況是什麼樣"},{"start":8990.753,"end":8996.679,"text":"當時在立法院說明的時候我們就稍微強調就中共他對台的這種聯合戰備警訊已經常態化了那這個部分從1月13號到520他可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警訊來對我們施壓那我當時也提醒了因為從6月到10月甚至11月是他演習的熱季所以下個階段5月這個有沒有掌握到"},{"start":9011.774,"end":9024.479,"text":"五月這個階段我們大概剛也提到從一月十三到五二零我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況而老實跟我們報告在中共宣布軍演期間事實上他的船艦已經開始動員對軍演那個我們知道因為他六月就有常態性的一些軍事演習這個已經是例行性就跟我們漢光演習一樣可是我要問的是五月二十三號的這一場這個我們事實上有沒有掌握到因為"},{"start":9038.745,"end":9058.515,"text":"像剛剛您說其實它的兵力沒有比較多可是它的範圍是比較大然後它這一次是用四個軍種陸海空軍還有火箭軍對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了尤其它這一次軍演的那種項目其實對於反介入跟區域戒指"},{"start":9062.777,"end":9068.419,"text":"其實是比較明顯的態勢那我想要請教的是就520以後這個三天我們有沒有掌握?它會發生?你們已經知道了嗎?跟委員說明的是事實上大概在5月的18號左右它的船艦都已經開始在活動了"},{"start":9081.602,"end":9084.404,"text":"那這種活動的態勢我們一判就會發現這是有點偽異常的而且慢慢的往台海地區的周邊水域在移動那這我們就發現的真猴了那這樣有兩個問題因為我們在5月18號已經發現它的軍艦其實已經在活動可是其實我們現在每天都有基建在活動可是這個有沒有產生變化"},{"start":9107.261,"end":9137.244,"text":"對．對"},{"start":9137.344,"end":9166.246,"text":"因為就國軍來講他當然在展演的飛機跟相關的戰備的飛機他是有做任務的分工的而且每天的載空機都有一定的數量在我們當然知道可是當他是演習不是他常態性的就他每天的一個基建的擾台的部分那我們就已經有掌握了我們還做出這樣的一個選擇或者另外我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強"},{"start":9167.347,"end":9191.315,"text":"因為他在520之後,平常他在6月以後嘛他為什麼這一次沒有掛單很大的一個可能性是因為他非常激動他還沒有來得及去做一個公告因為你如果正常的要實彈的話其實他必須要公告還有他演習的區域範圍所以這一次兩天很重要的他的目的就國安局掌握就局長您的看法為什麼會這樣做"},{"start":9193.383,"end":9221.622,"text":"對我們的判斷我跟委員做個說明就是說軍事上他當然是在對我們進行恫嚇但是在政治上我剛剛也跟王定委員在做說明的是他也有做一些必要的這種風險的控管那所以說他並沒有宣布禁航區他並沒有發射實彈假如又宣布禁航區又發射實彈的話那演習規模又比照到當時裴若曦2022年8月訪台的話他所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常的高"},{"start":9223.143,"end":9226.766,"text":"因為2022年佩洛西議長訪台的時候那個已經是拉很長的時間而且他們也做了預告所以他可以去有時間公告我們現在比較擔心的他短短的兩天之內他已經迅速的集結而且很多人根本不知道沒有掌握到因為我們"},{"start":9241.778,"end":9257.648,"text":"本來給我們的資訊就包括國安局喔你們當時跟立法院說明的部分其實也都是到6月以後他們的常態的演訊所以這個部分我們必須要關注的是他在這麼短的時間可以這樣做所以他速戰"},{"start":9258.829,"end":9260.53,"text":"這個動員的速度加快這我們有在注意"},{"start":9284.344,"end":9304.349,"text":"所以他為什麼會有這個演習?局長你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況?為什麼會有這個?是因為賴總統的演說嗎?沒有,因為演說的部分,我剛才跟媒體說明,因為演說主要的內容還是在延續到維持台海現狀的相關政策的路線跟基調"},{"start":9305.149,"end":9329.893,"text":"那有一些對岸的涉台系統釋放出來賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國或不隸屬的這個論點事實上也是延續了蔡總統蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持所以就路線上基調來講沒關係各自的解讀那是雙方面的我現在要說的是可是就這一次解放軍這樣子的一個軍演的一個動作您的觀察還有"},{"start":9330.514,"end":9341.394,"text":"國安局掌握的一個他的目的到底是什麼他是因為我們的就職演說就是賴總統的就職演說是有觸犯到什麼嗎所以他才有這樣子的一個"},{"start":9344.471,"end":9359.264,"text":"對我們判斷是就職演說應該只是一個理由啦那他主要是透過這一次的針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳對外做宣示也就是北京對於台海情勢他有絕對的主導跟掌控權不管是誰在台灣擔任總統"},{"start":9360.345,"end":9383.28,"text":"所以他的我覺得主要的訊息所以我們還是要因應嘛對不對不管是誰擔任總統過去的八年前其實並沒有這麼危急也沒有兵凶戰危我們現在要提的是27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員其實他也曾經對外說明中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心不要跨越不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭他的說法"},{"start":9387.563,"end":9416.562,"text":"我們可不可以請教局長在像這樣子因為我們是不為戰不避戰而且我們也不想給解放軍他有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平來導致戰爭那可不可以你用比較簡單的接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人因為這是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔的所有的戰爭風險而不是外國人今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助那個"},{"start":9417.623,"end":9424.846,"text":"我們沒有辦法做判斷可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人局長你用比較接地氣比較簡單的方法告訴我們所謂的紅線是什麼對我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候也曾經針對這問題比較簡單的就是說美國現在跟中國的高層的交往事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線"},{"start":9445.896,"end":9450.818,"text":"我們不管是國際社會美國或是我們在講的紅線主要的還是要維持台海的現狀台海安全的現狀那這個就是最主要的紅線"},{"start":9472.432,"end":9475.894,"text":"維持台海現狀,因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變?這個紅線是什麼?因為你要把具體講出來。我們的目標是要維持台海現狀,但是假如中共它是透過單邊的或武力式的、斜過性的方式。它單邊有可能用什麼樣的藉口嗎?"},{"start":9488.92,"end":9495.303,"text":"對,他有可能用的是這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我那個我知道了,我說是什麼原因啊?局長你知道我的問題吧?你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼但我跟委員講一下啦你講不出來不是,中共的所謂的紅線是依照他來定義對,沒關係,他的定義也沒關係因為主動權,剛剛局長也提到主動權在他如果以他的定義,他自己的認知到底什麼是紅線,你讓全體國人知道"},{"start":9516.534,"end":9535.087,"text":"中共所謂的對台政策主要有三個路線基本的基調反突、觸投、反外力介入就是這樣所以就這樣嘛對所以就這個部分在這個紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏其實也是在我們整個過程尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下台海隨時都有面臨很大的風險的情況之下我想整個國安團隊應該要掌握的訊息應該是這個"},{"start":9543.112,"end":9567.347,"text":"而且不要讓我們國人有溫水煮青蛙這樣子的一個心態因為當國際都非常緊張的情況之下只有我們其實還是就全體國人好像還不是那麼在乎這是有很大的風險的那另外剛剛也有委員也有提到我們昨天剛通過的局長先回剛剛那個嗎沒有"},{"start":9570.806,"end":9590.008,"text":"這個部分我們請國安單位持續掌握好不好那我再用一點點時間不好意思主席就很多委員其實有提到說像反滲透法剛剛局長也有在回答的時候有提到不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子"},{"start":9591.812,"end":9610.003,"text":"所有的交流今天我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題今天如果兩岸可以交流可以有更多的管道其實我們維持和平就有多一個希望不管是透過任何的管道不要把每一個人都先打入賣台"},{"start":9611.204,"end":9634.998,"text":"如果嚴格說起來昨天通過的法案因為大家在擔心的是什麼洩密我們所有的委員中華民國的立法委員其實在整個機密的資料裡面其實他們都是可以看的當你們在做報告的時候只是用機密的形式來報告所以沒有這樣的問題包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候"},{"start":9636.559,"end":9653.069,"text":"在法條裡面定得非常清楚不管是國安、外交、國防如果有屬於機密性質的它還是受到相關的規範所以不要把這個統統套在一起那個可以拿到哪裡拿到習近平的桌子上這是非常可笑的說法"},{"start":9653.869,"end":9681.289,"text":"今天如果有洩密現在要追究的是到底誰把這個機密的資料到底真的有沒有洩露出去這個要查今天如果我們通過了這個調查權到底有沒有包括我們很多的重要的國防裝備包括潛艦如果第一艘的資料已經洩露出去了你後面的七艘還可以照嗎所以要不要查應該把它查清楚可是有沒有人把它洩露給其他不應該知道的除了立法委員"},{"start":9681.889,"end":9709.543,"text":"在我們的立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人給了不該給的像這樣子的可能有利益的團體這個部分國安局也希望你們可以掌握這個部分不要把它套一個大帽子今天如果說你沒有能力去掌握然後什麼都跟這個反送滲透法大家去一趟那你就規定不可以去啊"},{"start":9710.834,"end":9738.087,"text":"你如果說反滲透法要這樣用的話更恐怖還有社會法當初社會法之亂前幾年的時候政府辦了很多無辜的老百姓只要有攻擊到或者什麼用假訊息或者你有什麼攻擊政府的言論就馬上用社會法辦了那不是更恐怖台灣是一個民主自由的國家我們不是口口聲聲這樣說嗎那你可以讓人民陷於這樣的恐懼之中嗎而且隨便就辦"},{"start":9739.347,"end":9755.18,"text":"常常還是都結果都沒有問題所以就這個部分時間的關係不好意思這部分國安局應該要有一個高度今天如果要我們外面已經充滿危險已經充滿動盪如果內部是由我們自己引發的這樣子的動亂而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人這樣子會造成更大的動亂"},{"start":9767.23,"end":9784.152,"text":"一句話就是說反滲透的部分對於兩岸正常合法的交流我們都予以尊重沒有意見那可能我們會特別關注的是有任何違反到反滲透法相關的法律要件的部分而且要有具體證據我們就會啟動相關的那當然嘛所以你官員如果在"},{"start":9785.093,"end":9785.113,"text":"謝謝馬委員"},{"start":9817.019,"end":9817.939,"text":"有請國安局的蔡局長"},{"start":9842.638,"end":9870.018,"text":"謝謝主席,老闆好是,您好那麼請問國安局有沒有派人去參加517、521、524、528的我們周邊外圍的親鳥行動,有沒有?派人沒有,我們沒有介入這種社會的活動,沒有沒有介入?對好奇去看一下也沒有我沒有下達這樣的指示要我們的各單位的同仁去參加這個活動,沒有?沒有"},{"start":9871.638,"end":9893.895,"text":"我現在擔心的是說你們說不定有人跑去你不知道而已結果你們的人國安人員他的年紀跟年紀有關係的支持的傾向都被記錄了這個局長你要不要講一下如果國安局有人在裡面資料都這樣子被收"},{"start":9894.836,"end":9895.497,"text":"你有沒有管到取得基地台的登錄信喔?"},{"start":9903.58,"end":9927.899,"text":"我剛也跟徐巧新委員有報告過就國安局假如要跟電信業者索取相關的用戶的資料的話必須要遵照通訊保障及監察法的規定要送到高等法院然後要經過12道的行政審查程序才能夠啟動而且目的是為了可能國安或司法刑事案件的偵辦這有一個非常嚴謹的法律程序那麼我們就知道要今天"},{"start":9928.96,"end":9945.81,"text":"其實一般的檢調系統是有蠻嚴謹的規定但是其中有一個是國安局長可以簽對沒有沒有我簽了之後是要送到高等法院由高等法院來裁示可以啟動才能啟動程序上是這樣"},{"start":9946.874,"end":9947.494,"text":"手機定位資訊屬於各自"},{"start":9964.896,"end":9969.738,"text":"我們今天的題目就是中國大陸的聯合利建A"},{"start":9990.061,"end":10009.511,"text":"剛才蔡局長講到幾次了針對賴總統的就職演說那我就很好奇兩位長官哪位可以回答蔡英文總統也講過中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬為什麼蔡英文講的沒事賴清德有事是怎樣"},{"start":10013.442,"end":10029.178,"text":"我剛也跟其他委員有兩位委員報告過這件事事實上賴總統的520就職演說他延續的還是維持兩岸現狀的基本價值那中共他可能在台灣的政府換屆他有一個反應的動作所以委員可以知道"},{"start":10030.219,"end":10034.102,"text":"上次有嗎?上次馬英九叫蔡英文總統有這樣子嗎?馬上也行嗎?沒有啊!沒有啊!蔡英文老是叫你沒有啊!"},{"start":10055.238,"end":10063.365,"text":"2016、20、20他會講講得更露露骨也沒有啊差在哪裡來副主委你應該知道答案你講一下差在哪裡差在哪裡"},{"start":10066.158,"end":10086.586,"text":"我想每一個總統他用詞用字的方式會不太一樣那但是有一些原則還是相同的比如說賴清德總統他就一開始就講說遵循中華民國憲政體制那這當然就是包括了中華民國憲法徵修條文跟兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":10088.147,"end":10094.635,"text":"就是查這裡啦因為蔡英文講處理兩岸關係是根據中華民國憲法Plus兩岸人民關係條例賴清德沒有講這個沒有講兩岸人民關係條例那是在梁文傑補充的"},{"start":10105.915,"end":10116.061,"text":"這個我們上個禮拜的記者會就講過了你把它延伸的問題人家你是正式的就職員說這麼久的就職員說兩岸人民會議條例你不把它講出來他如果把這個補進來就沒事情了你了解賴總統嗎?他事後一定會懊惱吧?沒台沒際就是怕說一句你解讀說他有報告事實上他沒有講啊"},{"start":10133.143,"end":10137.131,"text":"公開場合正式的就職演說沒有講兩岸人民關係條例我請問蔡局長是不是"},{"start":10139.252,"end":10162.564,"text":"對,我想我們遵守委員的解讀啦,但我剛剛在提醒委員的,也有其他的解讀,像美國官方的解讀就認為中共這個有點在無端心性啦,並沒有挑釁對岸,但是對岸竟然有這種軍事演習的動作,所以才對中共提出示警,那這是另外一個問題嗎?啊奇怪咧,要美國這樣說,應該它在這個圍起的時候,美國應該去圍中共的這個軍機啊,都沒有看到它的航母在哪裡啊。"},{"start":10163.584,"end":10164.125,"text":"全民絕對反對!全民絕對唾棄!"},{"start":10175.923,"end":10197.729,"text":"臺灣人民對這樣子對臺灣人民是沒有用的只是傷害臺灣人民的感情而已對不對我們不分黨派不需要戴紅帽大家當然會討厭說奇怪了我們家有那些誰人在怕被理對不對喊打喊殺絕對反對嘛但是問題就在於說當家的要想辦法讓旁邊那個人不要動不動來這裡戳我啊可是這樣啊"},{"start":10204.634,"end":10210.057,"text":"對吧,我說過了,好,那這個在新疆副主委,其實老公這樣哈咧哈咧,我都嫉妒了,那新的總統有點退縮了,有硬的硬,越硬,軟的越軟了,開始說,誒,陸生可以來台灣了,對吧。"},{"start":10227.737,"end":10243.167,"text":"路深來台灣這個是我們一貫的政策我們去年甚至為了歡迎路深我們把這個路深納入健保這個長年以來的問題都解決了所以這個路深的政策其實是蔡總統跟賴總統都是一貫的謝謝"},{"start":10258.838,"end":10264.323,"text":"這個部分我們都會在處理中,處理規劃中,具體的部分要由交通部來回答,但是我必須說"},{"start":10274.753,"end":10275.413,"text":"那個蔡局長你認同不認同這時候如果把"},{"start":10304.392,"end":10317.526,"text":"附陸團的禁止令取消掉對於兩岸關係的緩和有幫助委員這問題涉及到兩岸政策跟公安政策陸委會跟交通部的執掌我們尊重相關政府部門的規劃"},{"start":10320.287,"end":10323.189,"text":"早上媒體也在問這個問題我們對於各種外國政府機構或民間智庫有關台海情勢的分析我們都有在注意"},{"start":10343.044,"end":10360.518,"text":"那我們本身也跟國安單位跟國防部也透過聯合請假沒有你要講一下絕對不可能你應該講一下鼓勵我們的士氣啊絕對不可能你不能講這個話不可能一個小時就暫停我們不可能對他學者有他的自己的推論我們就尊重他的一個推論最後一小點他5月23號的一個演習你什麼時候知道"},{"start":10365.18,"end":10388.661,"text":"我們之前在研判整個態勢就認為他應該會有一些相關的事對,但是那個timing你是說5月20前後會有但是你沒有做到timing他們出動你根本不知道不不不,我剛也在跟馬昭偉做相關的說明他的船艦一有動態的話我們都會掌握這一部分請委員放心但是5月23這一次precise這一天你沒有做到"},{"start":10389.522,"end":10392.745,"text":"我可以跟你們報告,在總統上任的第一次國安首長會議,我們都已經討論相關的情形,日期大概都有掌握到。"},{"start":10416.858,"end":10421.82,"text":"因為今天由美國聯邦眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾率領的訪團特地要來會議室跟委員們做短暫的交流並且合影留念所以我們也邀請我們現在在場的委員還有希望參與的委員可以留在會場稍微等待外賓的抵達"},{"start":10439.268,"end":10443.392,"text":"休息時間除主席台之外不清場請國際事務處的同仁掌握外賓到場以及交流合影的流程外賓離開以後我們就結束休息繼續開會我們現在休息"},{"start":10477.456,"end":10479.228,"text":"內事保證 我想說已經打完"},{"start":11938.766,"end":11939.787,"text":"好,我們繼續開會接下來請沈博洋委員上台諮詢好,謝謝主席那有請這個國安局局長,謝謝請蔡局長"},{"start":11969.011,"end":11991.687,"text":"好 謝謝主席 森委好好 那我就針對今天的題目就是就職這一個方面來討論一下那就是說根據我們這個在520還沒到之前我們還是很關注中國的這一個灰色地帶作戰那粗略來講還是都是分那幾類嘛一個軍事的 然後呢政治的 然後還有information就是跟資訊有關的還有經濟"},{"start":11993.268,"end":12013.857,"text":"那在之前的這些分析當中這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係他有時候很少說四管齊下那這一次我們在觀察的時候就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方當然第一個就是在資訊世界裡面對我們來講一開始除了一般的假消息之外我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊"},{"start":12016.759,"end":12021.925,"text":"關鍵基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊看起來是讚,看起來買了一些未爆彈,所以一開始想先問一下局長就是說,我們先就資訊這一塊來講,目前掌握的狀況是如何,能夠講的"},{"start":12035.842,"end":12054.529,"text":"這大概資訊的部分有兩部分一個部分是爭議訊息的散播那在演習的這兩天我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息那我在剛剛會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過那操作重點放在移美、移軍跟移賴"},{"start":12055.489,"end":12083.391,"text":"這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點那相關的爭議訊息的問題我們有都通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理第二部分是在治安的攻擊方面那攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點然後520之後有降低到了軍演的523又稍微高一點那但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害的一個成果但是數字上我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢"},{"start":12084.612,"end":12112.517,"text":"對,那這個也是跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的尤其是資安這一方面那但是剛剛有講過就是說他有兩波嘛一波當然是在520之後然後後來減少後來又再增加那這跟剛剛這個王定宇委員其實也有提到的跟這個後面他還沒有問完就是跟這個人民日報的這個所作所為可能有一點關係就是說他在整體輿論方面520當然對他來講是重要的一個輿論操作但很明顯的過了幾天之後呢這個人民日報"},{"start":12113.357,"end":12139.605,"text":"看起來是跟對台鷹派可能是比較類似一點也就是說他發動了新的攻擊那我覺得這一件事情對我們在做國安的研判來講看起來是一個警訊那我先往下看一下其他的方面就是說當然在這邊有一個就是大量的這個跟藝人的表態是有關係的所以他算是本來的統戰網絡那這個應該是今天很多人都已經問過這個我就不多說他有大量的一個散佈"},{"start":12140.925,"end":12170.222,"text":"但是呢就是說除了這一個所謂的用這種台獨工作者這樣的一個方式呢他去形成一個對比一方面有人是支持統一然後去抨擊台獨工作者去貼上一個標籤那我現在比較擔心的事情呢就是在往下這一邊因為藝人呢就我們以前的研究來講他一直以來呢他可能會慢慢一步一步的先跟你講說你是不支持台獨你反對台獨一直到你不反對統一到支持統一他會有一步一步的往下"},{"start":12170.982,"end":12199.631,"text":"但因為藝人是對外的所以他們來講是一個統戰的樣板但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已它包含背後的這個經紀公司等等之類的還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演所以就是在第二個步驟目前來講他們統戰給予利益對外的這個部分我們是看得見的那對於娛樂產業這個幕後的這些工作者的壓迫的形式看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多那不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何"},{"start":12200.311,"end":12210.459,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題但先跟委員說明一下因為以關單位的立場來講我們不適合去評論個別的藝人因為我們的評論會造成他對我們看整體娛樂產業整體的娛樂產業大概壓迫的形式有幾種一種是會請藝人或經濟公司來簽署相關的認同書這包括要認同九個共識一個中國"},{"start":12221.488,"end":12247.461,"text":"或是不能夠去批評在展演的過程當中不能夠去批評中國國內的政治的體制或相關的事件這是第一部分那第二部分是會跟經濟公司可能有威脅查稅的相關的一個動作來讓經濟公司要來配合到相關中共政府部門的一些政治上的一個宣傳的操作那第三個部分就是也會針對這些的演唱會的活動以"},{"start":12248.982,"end":12264.3,"text":"公安或安全的理由來管控入場的人數那這部分也會讓策辦活動的相關的公司或單位會承受到一些壓力所以就我們所掌握到的公情或密情的相關可以對外說明的情資大概壓迫的型態有這幾類"},{"start":12266.055,"end":12281.71,"text":"那剛剛有提到第一個是跟演藝活動有關再來跟查稅有關然後跟簽認同書有關那簽認同書這個我們在軍方其實也很常看到他都不只是認同書他也包含投降書所以這邊再拉回來就是說他對台的這些其他的統戰工作譬如說假設今天是學校"},{"start":12282.23,"end":12307.763,"text":"像之前學校有一些會有終身的交換嘛雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情但他們在跟這些中國的這些學校在簽的時候呢他可能也會簽說那我們在交換的同時呢你們的這個中國的學生在我們這邊我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的但現在很大的一個問題是只要有簽這些東西其實大部分是不對外公開的我們一般人無法得知"},{"start":12308.523,"end":12331.819,"text":"演藝工作者在這個方面他的經紀公司簽這個我們也不知道所以變成說就是我在第三個點這邊想要問的事情是說這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為對國人來講或者對新戰來講我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的他可能是不得已的哪些人是自願跪上去的這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的但"},{"start":12333.14,"end":12347.912,"text":"雖然法律並沒有強制的規定但目前來講中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅哪些人不是被威脅這種細緻的差別可能需要讓國人知道但不知道在以國安單位的立場來講"},{"start":12349.033,"end":12365.895,"text":"有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議雖然這是立法委員的責任但是行政單位一直以來都有這一個法案的一個草擬的權利就是說我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易的被揭露但是又不會侵害到人權也不會侵害到這個很多人念知在知所謂的兩岸交流"},{"start":12366.471,"end":12386.194,"text":"對這也是一開始我在回答委員這問題第一時間就在提醒的就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓就我們來講我們比較能夠來對外說明的還是在於他的一個施壓的一個樣態那也感謝委員我一開始再謝謝委員"},{"start":12386.995,"end":12412.312,"text":"透過這樣的一個提問讓我們來說明一下那可能我們的演藝人員不只演藝人員可能包括了其他藝文工作者或是甚至的企業界到對岸去你要經商求學可能都面臨到這樣的施壓的一個來自於中國政府的一個施壓的一個手法那讓國內的社會能夠了解這樣的狀況那在進行兩岸交流的時候也能夠來示警讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法"},{"start":12413.412,"end":12439.814,"text":"因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做這個新戰的防護有很高的關係那很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多不過這個之後我會再來問國防部那我拉回來就是說我們剛剛講就四個層面軍事層面、政治層面政治層面就包含外交、資訊層面、經濟層面那經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的"},{"start":12440.574,"end":12455.909,"text":"這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是蠻類似的他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉所以在經濟要做一些制裁啊等等之類的這個是弱化的所以變成來講他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊譬如說他可能在台灣想要推資金區啊"},{"start":12456.85,"end":12471.301,"text":"或者說最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的藉由一些比較小恩小惠的一些經濟或者跟我們台灣的地方政府去簽訂相關的協定把一個經濟的區域範圍畫出來有可能是相較於以往他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多"},{"start":12472.242,"end":12500.065,"text":"那他這個力道變少之後呢其實照理說在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的相較於外交,因為外交他需要發很多成本嘛那他資訊世界如果他是需要比較低成本的照理說資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多那因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析那第一件事情呢我想問就是剛剛在問的問題其實也是跟這個有關就是這一次不管是假消息的散播等等之類的相較於四年前那一次520比起來"},{"start":12501.986,"end":12527.331,"text":"國安單位這邊是覺得是比較多還是持平還是反而是變少?就這一次的520就職的期間我剛剛也跟委員所提到了那有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號或是一次性的帳號有非常頻密的在散佈這些正義訊息那一開始在進入會場也跟媒體朋友說到這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向一個部分是以美"},{"start":12527.711,"end":12528.391,"text":"因為我們這次看到其實外交做得蠻多的"},{"start":12555.366,"end":12577.182,"text":"軍事當然不用講就是一直以來都是這個樣子所以我軍事可能放在後面所以我一直我現在會認為說在資訊世界本身的一個操作看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的它比較集中可能跟俄羅斯比較像就是有點這個精準打擊那這個不知道因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有產生重組"},{"start":12577.922,"end":12600.476,"text":"重組之後到底誰負責什麼?駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息?還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊?還是說他們完全是分開的團隊?現在是非常不明朗的所以我在這邊還是建議就是說可能對於他們這個信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊尤其是這兩個到底現在誰在主導?然後他主導的節奏是什麼?因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同"},{"start":12601.156,"end":12616.545,"text":"這可能是之後要掌握的那也希望在下一次質詢的時候我們可以針對這一點再往下然後也讓國人知道好謝謝局長謝謝主席謝謝接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我先請陸委會梁副主委請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":12637.797,"end":12651.87,"text":"副主委好旅遊觀光業非常關心因為馬上6月份我們又恢復禁團令那現在呢包含旅遊觀光業他們一直在打聽6月份的禁團令有沒有可能取消"},{"start":12653.172,"end":12667.467,"text":"當然有些是很樂觀的但也有些很悲觀的因為現在很多的觀光業都覺得都已經活不下去所以想請問一下副組委就您所了解6月份的禁團令還是繼續的維持嗎"},{"start":12669.749,"end":12696.365,"text":"還是在進入倒數之後尤其禮拜五的時候那個院長會到立法院做施政報告有沒有可能6月份的禁團令會有任何的更動我們正在規劃中那具體要由這個交通部來說明會不會有院長來星期五的時候因為正好是5月31號"},{"start":12701.059,"end":12724.42,"text":"馬上6月就到了有可能有可能所以如果由這個院長來說明的話那也代表是有可能做一些調整是不是我們正在規劃中要交通部來說明是好OK好謝謝時間暫停先請那個部主委先回先回座那我請那個蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":12729.841,"end":12758.845,"text":"好,局長,剛才我們美國眾議院的外交事務委員會主席馬克歐剛才也來這邊來做參訪但是呢,因為我們時間非常短,我也不好意思去問他這件事情,但我覺得很重要就是因為在媒體採訪的時候,他特別提出了他說美國對台事務上有一些紅線是不能跨越的"},{"start":12759.545,"end":12788.541,"text":"不然的話即便臺灣沒有挑釁的動作但是也有可能發生戰爭那就我們局長所了解那個所謂的紅線的他所謂的紅線的定義會是什麼對那就我們對美方長期對臺政策的理解他才提到了所謂不能跨越紅線主要重點還是在維持臺海的和平的現狀那不能夠容許透過單邊脅迫式的方式來改變現狀這大概是他們長期政策論述的重點"},{"start":12790.201,"end":12812.982,"text":"你可不可以具體講,那個所謂的紅線的意義是什麼?比如說,像北京方面,他講到一個台灣議題的紅線,我們大致會知道,因為他會有很多的說法。但是呢,我覺得馬克奧他的講法是,直接告訴會有紅線不能夠跨越。所以可不可以有一些具體的,那個所謂的紅線是指的什麼?"},{"start":12813.763,"end":12816.405,"text":"所以局長認為我們目前沒有跨越紅線,對不對?"},{"start":12832.418,"end":12834.299,"text":"在賴總統就職演說後三天,北京是無預警地做環台的軍演。"},{"start":12850.827,"end":12873.794,"text":"接下來他又說在東海會接近三週的實彈射擊訓練我想請問一下包括環台軍演還有現在的宣布要三週實彈射擊的訓練請問一下在這之前美方有沒有通知過台灣說陸方要準備進演"},{"start":12875.375,"end":12903.204,"text":"對 我想在美國國務院的第一次對外的說明他有針對這個問題對外做解釋我也跟委員說明一下他有提到說臺灣跟美國針對中共的軍事的動態都有進行相關的聯合的監控的動作這是美方對外說明那我們尊重這樣的說法那至於委員在關心的是他沿海開始劃設一些禁航區來進行所謂的火炮的試射各位報告的是不只是東海事實上從渤海地區"},{"start":12904.744,"end":12914.639,"text":"昨天算了一下大概有六七個進行區的畫社那這個比較屬於是季節性的一個火炮四射的演訓對台海的針對性比較沒有那麼高"},{"start":12915.208,"end":12935.301,"text":"所以你覺得在這個東海的部分、渤海部分並不是從台灣來的,可能是從東北亞而去的。那我還是要很具體的邀請那個局長能夠回答,也就是呢,在那麼我們針對台灣的環台軍演,我們在事先有沒有得到任何的訊息?"},{"start":12936.181,"end":12949.773,"text":"好,這分兩部分,一個部分是態勢上的判斷,在1月13號選後,我們大概就有做一個概括的分析。這是我不是判斷,我是說有沒有得到訊息,有或者沒有。我們判斷歸判斷。對對對,我剛剛講了兩部分,一個部分是整體的判斷,那麻煩我幾秒鐘說明一下。時間快到了。對,就1月13到5月20我們認為會有一些軍事上比較中度的動作。"},{"start":12960.563,"end":12989.002,"text":"那有沒有超過呢?有沒有超過我們原來的判斷?目前看起來還好,好,好,第二面向要講的是還好喔!這個所謂是相對性的,因為我也跟其他委員說明過,比起去年4月的聯合歷艦跟2022年的8月的環台軍演,這一次的規模並沒有比過去來得大。那委員關注的是我們事前到底知不知道,因為只要他們的船艦一有什麼動作,我們都能夠掌握,所以大概從他動員的船艦的數量以及航向的地點,我們可以判斷"},{"start":12989.622,"end":13016.825,"text":"在他宣布之前我們已經掌握消息了嗎?有有有有有有我們確定有掌握消息那我再請問一下賴總統上任之後有沒有召開過國安會議?有我剛才也跟有國安首長會議有有有好那我請問一下我跟委員報告一下就是在520之後在第一次的總統召開的國安首長會議我們就已經有大概預判了演習的狀況跟時間好那我請問一下在他宣布這個"},{"start":13018.306,"end":13025.597,"text":"軍演聯合軍演就是環台軍演之後我們有沒有召開國安會議那總統的指示是什麼"},{"start":13029.192,"end":13057.086,"text":"那對於整個的軍事的動態因為我們都有非常精準的預判那以及全面資訊的掌握那有針對這個雙方．所以總結來講就是這一次的這個環台軍演就是局長的意思說事前有掌握然後呢發生之後也立即有然後低於我們原來預估的強度是這樣可以這樣解釋嗎沒有大概整個判斷的規模跟我們預先的評估是接近的對"},{"start":13058.277,"end":13074.171,"text":"原來你們判斷規模會就有環台軍演的部分嗎?好那最後一個問題那麼這樣環台軍演未來會不會常態化?對這是我們特別在提醒要關注的因為他這一次的環台軍演的演習的代號是有序號的他是稱為聯合力艦2024A"},{"start":13076.633,"end":13088.244,"text":"那就我們對共軍的理解他有A你不能排除有後續的B或C就會有B就會有C對所以他有可能會變成是不同的系列的軍演會有不同的演習科目的進行所以我們預期他會有繼續繼續除了A之後還會有B還是變C系列那會不會常態化"},{"start":13095.03,"end":13117.405,"text":"環台經驗對台灣來講並不是一個正常的事情是那我們會認為未來會是常態化嗎這也是在書面報告有跟委員提醒的就是說我們確實有在擔心也在關注這樣的趨勢有這樣的擔心有這個concern好 那麼這未來其實對我們的不管是國安或者是我們的國防一線的這些所有的這些國軍地球都是非常非常大的壓力是好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員關心 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":13123.626,"end":13123.906,"text":"紅夢凱委員蔡局長"},{"start":13144.605,"end":13171.788,"text":"好,謝謝主席,鴻文好好,蔡局長我想很多委員都已經關心就是賴總統520就職演說之後那這個中國大陸這邊有做相關的一個因應那其中我們上禮拜有看到媒體有報導是說也有針對北京當局有做可能採取行動做推演而最後軍演是最糟糕的劇本針對這部分有什麼樣的一個說明"},{"start":13172.899,"end":13175.1,"text":"因為就這個匿名的國安人員陳述他有被認為是國安局的一種非正式的表態"},{"start":13201.047,"end":13227.538,"text":"那但是除了軍事演習以外,國安局當時還預設了陸方有可能有哪些不同的反應?對,就中共的可能對台施壓的動作,一種狀況是他有例行的聯合戰備警巡那這種聯合戰備警巡他會擴大化、擴大版,這是一種樣態那第二種他會在有特殊的水面兵力或空中兵力的邊組到我們的周邊海空域來進行針對性的演習"},{"start":13228.458,"end":13243.286,"text":"這次我們所看到的聯合例件2024A就有點像是結合了聯合戰備警訊又結合了有一些海上編隊的聯合演訓所以說算是相對來講是我們有預設但是是比較過激的一個動作"},{"start":13243.866,"end":13264.986,"text":"沒有,就這要看相對性,假如說你要比起日常的聯合戰備警巡,它規模是比較大一點,兵力集結狀況也比較規模大,那但是你要是再比較到2023年4月的聯合歷艦,還有2022年8月的環台軍演,規模又沒有那麼大,因為這一次並沒有進行那個進航區的劃射,那也沒有進行實彈的演訓。"},{"start":13270.39,"end":13289.58,"text":"相對上來講,比起前面兩年的軍演來講,今年的規模沒有特別大。不過局長,我想針對你的專業判斷也秉持你所提出來情報五顏色這樣的一個精神。我可以請教,在這一次賴清德總統他的就職演說,相對於前兩次蔡英文總統的就職演說,"},{"start":13290.841,"end":13303.675,"text":"2016 跟 2020 分別有提到中華民國憲法以及兩岸人民關係條例在這一次賴清德總統演說裡面並沒有提到兩岸人民關係條例有沒有激化或是讓兩岸的形勢更加緊張的狀況"},{"start":13305.197,"end":13306.198,"text":"中共的涉台系統有再提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個"},{"start":13334.44,"end":13355.185,"text":"提出一些質疑,那必須要說明的是這個論述跟過去蔡總統的講話是有一貫性的,因為也是在蔡總統蔡前總統四大堅持裡面的第二大堅持,所以看起來在論述上並沒有做太大的更變,而我們需要注意的是中共的認知,等於是中共即使在蔡總統有釋放善意,以及國內外社會對相關的談話"},{"start":13357.446,"end":13383.244,"text":"整體來講還算肯定的情況之下他還舉行了軍演這就是我們在關注的重點所以剛剛我們才跟委員報告我們判斷是他有點利用這個軍演在對內宣傳也對外宣示不管誰在台灣擔任領導人他都有這個能力來掌控這個局面所以局長其實就你身為一個綜合判斷的幕僚的部分在賴清德總統的這個就職演說講稿事先您理解嗎"},{"start":13384.525,"end":13404.753,"text":"您的這個判斷跟方向是事先理解之後您綜合給予賴總統的一個判斷還是看到講稿之後才去做的這樣的一個綜合分析我們給決策者的一個相關的分析會聚焦在整體的態勢特別是中共可能在什麼情況之下會採取什麼行動這種態勢的分析"},{"start":13406.974,"end":13427.5,"text":"只要由決策者來針對這個態勢分析來決斷他在講稿當中要怎麼樣來論述他的一個內容講稿內容你沒有任何的建議對,就情報單位來講我們並不是總統的幕僚那這有文稿小組會針對相關的狀況來擬稿然後再由決策者來做最後的判斷好"},{"start":13428.976,"end":13447.188,"text":"局長另外一個部分我想請教因為當然這一次這個軍演的狀況也發生那本席也看到就是說在媒體報導我們軍演共軍軍演的這個操演區跟國軍所公布的這個操演區其實落差是有一段的距離"},{"start":13448.129,"end":13459.89,"text":"那尤其是像本席的新北第一選區北海岸超延區居然偏移了60公里以上那60公里以上其實相對來說我們有一些鄉親會覺得說怎麼會有這樣的一個落差"},{"start":13461.004,"end":13480.067,"text":"能不能說明一下,為什麼會有這樣的過程?好,跟委員說明一下,剛剛事實上陳永康委員也在質詢的時候有稍微提到這個觀點,那他也提出他的觀察,我也很尊重。也就是說中共這一次劃設的,總共有九個啦,有九個的演習區域,那他有標示那個區域的地點,那但是因為他並沒有提供座標。"},{"start":13480.948,"end":13503.096,"text":"那在沒有坐標情況之下國防部也針對中共的演習的區域再去做套圖來畫出我們認為他演習區域的可能的確實的地點所以造成因為沒有坐標之下會有些落差但是跟委員說明的那個兩個的圖的差距是在於中共的公佈的演習的區域有涵蓋到我們的24海里的海空域那我們的沒有"},{"start":13503.436,"end":13512.565,"text":"那跟委員報告的是在事實上整個軍演操作過程當中共軍的基建並沒有進入到所謂的二次海域這是沒有的這是從演習的實際狀況的狀況而進行沒有進入沒有"},{"start":13518.905,"end":13545.743,"text":"但是在這個部分如果說因為套土的狀況而造成這個落差會不會有導致擦槍走火的可能性會增加對這個部分就必須要透過國安單位跟國軍聯合情監偵的系統來掌握它實際軍事特別是基建他們活動的區域跟範圍局長所以剛剛也提到嘛王宏威委員剛剛也質詢是說未來有可能這樣的一個軍演有常態化的一個趨勢這是您的判斷"},{"start":13546.623,"end":13565.183,"text":"如果說每一次的這個狀況都變成是資訊上有落差的話,我們能夠用怎麼樣的一個增進的空間?大概有兩個部分,一個部分當然要去了解中共劃設的這些演習區域的實際的位置以及這些位置可能反映出中共犯台的預案"},{"start":13565.643,"end":13586.785,"text":"他的可能的操作為什麼會選在這個地區這是第一部分那第二部分當然是我們自己在做因應的時候也必須要能夠來掌握實際上中共在畫完之後實際的演習的動作那有沒有依照他的畫色的區域或是有沒有更進一步來侵犯到我們的海空域大概有這兩個主要的觀察的重點"},{"start":13587.425,"end":13606.418,"text":"本期希望是我們掌握的資訊跟狀況都要第一時間而且是要正確的資訊給國人知道而不是粉飾太平或是因為科技的一個不對等或相關的部分而造成資訊的落差這點應該是我們政府部門都應該要遵守以及注意的地方對 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":13612.366,"end":13621.913,"text":"好謝謝接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請張祺凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":13643.078,"end":13646.582,"text":"蔡局長、梁文傑、梁副主委"},{"start":13663.829,"end":13682.493,"text":"賴總統就職演說有特別說到說願意以對話代替對抗特別是兩邊對等之下要重啟兩岸的觀光旅遊跟學衛生來台灣就學那很多媒體都把它解讀是一個地感染之嘛我能不能很清楚的問我們開放"},{"start":13685.27,"end":13695.872,"text":"理由觀光團到大陸什麼時候會有好消息因為這個涉及到兩岸政策跟觀光政策應該要業管單位包括陸委會跟交通部來回答當然就是好啦那文傑你來文傑你來"},{"start":13698.854,"end":13723.459,"text":"我們在考慮這個問題的時候首先要看一下有沒有對面的他到底有沒有要做到對等性然後他到底有沒有善意目前看起來他從23、24號兩天的軍演兩天的軍演如果你要說他們是有善意的話那個對台灣很多人很多人民來說是不能接受的但是我們"},{"start":13725.21,"end":13750.757,"text":"對自己的觀光旅遊業我們有自己的步驟跟考量所以其實這個事情跟對方的善意不善意最後可能沒有關係沒有關係這句話很重要喔跟對方的態度跟善意不見有關係所以我們是按照自己的步驟嘛對不對雯姐包括總統在就職演說這樣講就是本來我們應該有擬定好自己的步驟跟時間表對不對所以我今天非常具體的問你"},{"start":13751.877,"end":13778.391,"text":"很多人都很期待這幾天好消息也一直傳出來說最近就會定案最近就會開放嗎?差不多時程是怎樣?我們對於不管是對於陸生還是對於觀光我們都有自己的規劃跟時間表所以這個事情其實都在規劃中規劃討論中昨天教育部部長已經把時程講出來了他說每年五月這個招生減傷就有了那觀光旅遊這一塊呢?"},{"start":13782.418,"end":13801.404,"text":"一直在傳說這個月的月底,最晚下個月會有好消息,是這樣嗎?我們規劃討論中,然後會有交通部來跟大家說明規劃討論中,然後是會有好消息,對不對?會有交通部來跟大家說明還沒辦法確定是不是好消息,還是會是好消息,由交通部來公布?"},{"start":13805.168,"end":13819.816,"text":"你說剛剛是講你們已經有規劃嘛事實上你如果從總統的就職演說特別把這個提出來是那講的是陸生這一塊教育部已經講了嘛對不對那顯然就是我們自己有規劃而且是往正面在走了嘛對我們的有自己的有自己的規劃什麼時候有好消息什麼時候有好消息"},{"start":13823.174,"end":13846.711,"text":"什麼時候?你給我一個時辰,你們本來就有時間表嘛對不對?你剛也提了不用等大陸什麼有善意或者他們的動作啊你剛不是這樣講嗎?我應該是這樣講,很多人把這個這個觀光團或是陸生當作說兩邊有沒有善意但是其實我們這樣一路看下來特別是從520到現在其實對方"},{"start":13848.991,"end":13854.172,"text":"我會問你是因為各界一直在有期待而且各界一直傳說最近有好消息所以我才問你嘛是最近會有好消息嘛對不對你講的已經有時間表啦"},{"start":13871.185,"end":13889.192,"text":"為什麼不能講,你講一下現在所有的觀光業者跟很多民眾在等你的答案我們陸委會是參與規劃討論,但是組織的單位是交通部你要當交通部,你們幫他做了決定,有時間表了,要等交通部來我們沒有幫他們做決定,我們參與討論,一起討論其實腦袋是陸委會"},{"start":13895.174,"end":13916.167,"text":"很多人在關心還台的這個經驗,其實更加緊張,我覺得對台灣,當然那個租款比較安全,一定要先顧到,裡面我覺得現在挑戰最大,其實是大陸的經濟越飛越近,對不對,越飛越近,它飛到41海里的時候,那時候距離我們總統府大概是4到5分鐘,戰機如果碰到緊急狀況,飛起來要6分鐘,"},{"start":13917.648,"end":13941.211,"text":"我們的領空優勢快沒有了,已經不是海峽中間消失了,現在飛到最近的37海里了,對不對?我們怎麼應應這個變局?怎麼確保我們的安全?因為事實上共機腳一離開基地,我們國安跟國防單位都可以知道他們大概飛的一個狀況,所以透過這些聯合的情報監偵都可以掌握他們的動態。"},{"start":13950.798,"end":13967.949,"text":"對,這部分我應該也知道了就我們的國軍不管在水面的兵力或空中的兵力在應處跟中國的這些戰機進階的攔截過程當中都有一套SOP的作業程序而且地面的雷達管制也都非常的精準在防止各種突發狀況的發生"},{"start":13969.89,"end":13993.709,"text":"兩岸最近還有一個非常熱的題目,就是台灣的藝人,最近被逼著要表態,對不對?非常多,五月天在北京鳥巢的演唱會提到說我們是中國人嘛那看起來台灣很多人就開罵了,就開罵了可是到目前為止,因為大陸那些小粉紅一直在逼啊,我們已經有78位藝人已經表態了我看這個賴總統自己也覺得不捨嘛"},{"start":13997.045,"end":14021.457,"text":"他說:「人在屋簷下,盼國人給予諒解跟體諒。」我剛才柱先生柯文哲也講了他說必須要尊重表演藝術者不要以政治表忠的方式破壞兩岸關係他直接呼籲大陸這些民眾不要逼著我們的藝人來表態這是破壞兩岸關係的可是他也提到,毆忙用地費、行商及包容去面對處理兩岸關係所以我問一下"},{"start":14023.109,"end":14034.792,"text":"國安局這邊跟陸委會對於我們的藝人他們做了很多公益嘛像五月天雖然到那邊講那個話可是他們回來你看花蓮的震災包括一檢高雄這個氣爆的時候他們都捐了非常多的錢"},{"start":14036.887,"end":14063.77,"text":"對於藝人被爆表的事情,你們怎麼看?管局這邊先說明,等下請陸委會說明就藝人遭到施壓的問題,剛剛也跟沈博洋委員有做一些說明大概中共操作的手法跟施壓的狀況有的是查稅的,有的是要簽認同書的那有的是管制他人員進出演唱會的數量那以這個來施壓那我想對於台灣的藝文工作者,包括演藝人員來講他就面臨到一個兩難"},{"start":14064.551,"end":14091.189,"text":"就是說你沒有表態好像就在當地你就必須要遭到政治的打壓但一表態又傷害到臺灣粉絲或民眾的情感所以確實非常兩難那我們會認為說可能國內對於中共這種施壓的動作應該給予強烈的譴責那來讓中共知道它這樣的統戰操作會造成反效果不要再對我們藝人施壓可是來我問一下文杰那請就說嘛人在屋簷下對不對要諒解跟"},{"start":14092.674,"end":14093.014,"text":"你怎麼看這個事情?"},{"start":14122.934,"end":14151.255,"text":"中央電視台是屬於中宣部的下屬單位所以這一次的操作大概就是我覺得是由中共中央由上而下發動那所以其實大家都看出來背後的政治操作很明顯那所以我們要譴責的其實就是對岸的這種政治體制那這也是為什麼兩岸關係到現在還是僵局的狀況雖然對岸說政治制度不同不代表"},{"start":14152.576,"end":14152.956,"text":"接下來請林一錦委員上台質詢"},{"start":14186.173,"end":14194.28,"text":"謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長陸委會梁副主委請蔡局長還有梁副主委好謝謝主席林委員好局長好副主委好沈博焱委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例的修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺那院會被退回一次在程序委員會也被擋了三次"},{"start":14214.915,"end":14225.9,"text":"那藍白連討論都不讓我們討論那當然我不曉得他們在害怕什麼那所以既然他不讓我們討論那我就本席藉在這個質詢的機會就來檢視一下這個法案"},{"start":14230.402,"end":14231.083,"text":"首先我們來看第九條"},{"start":14247.106,"end":14269.18,"text":"既然中國對台灣的威脅那麼的具體那就要請問局長跟副主委是否認同立委的身份特殊除了有機會接觸國家機密而且有權左右施政方向那他如果非得在任期期間要去中國那有必要經過內政部會同國安局法務部入委會"},{"start":14273.943,"end":14303.164,"text":"或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎另外另外再請教一下是否認同說如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事又或者是政治性的機關或者涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸那我想這個應該要申報這個接觸時的往來情形跟內容"},{"start":14305.945,"end":14319.492,"text":"這兩個問題請先回答我想國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場再請梁副主委來做補充就我們政府機關來講就像委員所提出來的依照兩岸人民關係條例的第九條以及國家機密保護法的第26條"},{"start":14320.532,"end":14332.606,"text":"那要到對岸區都應該要有一個報備的動作那特別是假如是直轄市長涉及到國安機密的或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府的科技研究計畫的到對岸區還要再經過聯席會議的審查"},{"start":14335.629,"end":14336.429,"text":"那副主委也是"},{"start":14364.079,"end":14386.849,"text":"其實從我們陸委會的立場九條之一本來就有包括立法院本來就有包括立法院那但是長久以來立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例的第九條之一提列提列需要附入審查的人員所以如果"},{"start":14388.288,"end":14408.091,"text":"可以把這個定的更明確化的話我覺得並不是不好因為譬如說我們現在在審查很多譬如說縣市長然後縣市長下面的局處長他顯然在我們看來其實局處長這些不太會接觸到"},{"start":14409.687,"end":14410.007,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":14428.673,"end":14442.408,"text":"藍白立委昨天也才剛通過這個濫權用黑槍濫權的這個手段來通過這個國會擴權惡法所以現在權力是集中在立法院"},{"start":14443.47,"end":14457.65,"text":"我們無法期待這個永全者能自治所以絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化所以我們一定有相應的監督機制所以就如同您剛所的兩位所說的都認同這個立委"},{"start":14459.953,"end":14479.392,"text":"去中國特別是有這個機密的這個一定是要有一些報備或者一些申報的機制那可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面對於立委到中國就足夠規範當然這個主張就是根據現行第九條第四項的第二款"},{"start":14480.452,"end":14504.678,"text":"那可是上個月底傅坤祺率團傅忠那又是接受哪一條法律又是接受哪一個條文的規範那還想請教是說那針對沈博洋委員所提的這個國安法案陸委會未來他會提出你們會提出對岸嗎或者是說針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係陸委會又有什麼實質的監管的機制啊"},{"start":14508.835,"end":14518.729,"text":"我必須再說一次兩岸人民關係條例所說的附入申報這個附入審查的部分本來就有包括立法院只是立法院從來不執行"},{"start":14521.913,"end":14547.552,"text":"從來不執行,我們也來文過貴院但是貴院也沒有回覆,也從來沒有回覆所以勢必透過修法的方式對,如果要把它訂得更清楚,我們是贊同的我現在補充一下,監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例他是提報26人,政務人員16人,連離退職未滿3年都有管制"},{"start":14549.353,"end":14574.461,"text":"檢察院是這樣的各級地方法院也有因為法官他可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件包括書記官包括下面的人員等等都要提列同樣都是根據兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法所以"},{"start":14576.246,"end":14580.044,"text":"中華民國各個機關都有做除了立法院"},{"start":14584.426,"end":14607.83,"text":"假設您那麼認同現在的現行法雖然是應該可以可是問題是都沒有在執行那如果要修法了更精確一點那是不是除了沈伯陽委員因為我們現在都被擋掉那當然陸委會如果說有這樣的態度的話是不是要提出對案"},{"start":14612.354,"end":14631.059,"text":"我們對於沈博洋委員所提出的法案我們是樂見往這個方向目前的態度是這樣好那最後一點時間就是說還是要請教兩位就是說藍白兩黨透過這個濫權的關係透過這個國會的擴權法那針對我國的國安跟台灣跟中國間的關係就兩位的專業評估各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡"},{"start":14641.41,"end":14642.074,"text":"呃 局長先好了"},{"start":14645.061,"end":14671.387,"text":"剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題就是說到時候因為我們依照國家機密保護法行政單位在和密的部分有一個非常明確的一個規範跟程序那到時候可能到大院來這邊那怎麼樣來針對這些相關的報告事項的內容的一個涉密的程度來做一些相關的一個管制或是出席人員的一個規範那這個會是我們後續跟大院來進行討論的重點剛剛也跟"},{"start":14673.627,"end":14681.089,"text":"馬昭偉有針對這部分有一些相關的對話好那副主委要補充嗎OK好謝謝謝主席好謝謝接下來請羅志強委員羅志強羅志強委員不在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在請吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在我們今天"},{"start":14703.433,"end":14732.058,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由林益君委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩周內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩周內提供委員令約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束"},{"start":14733.039,"end":14733.059,"text":"散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15961","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15961","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaa75a1f35c7302ecd9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4ef4193482ae618405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-29","start_time":"2024-05-29T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-29T13:35:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":18301,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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歐建智會計處處長 許守國統計處處長 饒智堅法治處處長 鄭信偉警政署署長 張榮興刑事警察局局長 周祐維國土管理署署長 吳興修"},{"start":2224.522,"end":2230.306,"text":"移民署署長鍾景坤中央警察大學校長楊元明建築研究所所長王榮進"},{"start":2253.646,"end":2278.082,"text":"空中勤務總隊總隊長錦妍淵國土策會中心主任鄭采棠土地重化工程處處長林慶林國家公園署署長陳茂春墾丁國家公園管理處處長陳乾隆玉山國家公園管理處處長盧淑飛"},{"start":2281.36,"end":2307.208,"text":"陽明山國家公園管理處處長楊茉玲泰魯閣國家公園管理處處長楊金珍雪壩國家公園管理處處長林文和金門國家公園管理處處長鄭瑞昌海洋國家公園管理處處長許韶良台江國家公園管理處副處長賴建良"},{"start":2310.817,"end":2332.457,"text":"國家自然公園管理處處長張登文介紹完了我們在場的委員以及我們的官員的話我們現在就請內政部劉世芳部長來做報告部長請問您要幾分鐘我們就給部長五分鐘的時間 謝謝"},{"start":2340.907,"end":2364.201,"text":"謝謝昭偉：高金委員：也非常謝謝今天的所有內政委員會的委員：還有我們所有大院的委員：主席：各位委員女士先生大家早今天曾邀報告內政部的業務概況：倍感榮幸：內政部業務廣泛：我受命接任內政部長：深感肩負的責任重大：為了回應民眾的殷切期待"},{"start":2365.321,"end":2390.316,"text":"當會遵循賴總統的治國理念以及卓院長所說的誠意溝通人民優先的施政原則全力以赴在過去歷任內政部長所奠定的基礎上繼續廣納各方意見找出新方法好方法來貼近民眾的需求致力建構韌性臺灣均衡社會打造一個讓國人生活安居安心安全的永續家園"},{"start":2391.277,"end":2409.468,"text":"以下我就四大面向的重點跟各位委員先進來簡要的報告另外內政部今年重要的工作推動情形詳細資料也敬請參閱書面報告首先在第一個面向就是安居家園跟永續國土方面第一個因為因應"},{"start":2410.529,"end":2432.239,"text":"今年0403的花蓮大地震內政部隨即投入救災跟復原的工作串聯業者整合旅宿空房並且提供租金補貼預計可提供超過5000戶的居住照顧那內政部也依行政院復原重建方案秉持著從優從速從簡的原則在今年5月6號特別請我們的吳長士代表在花蓮成立專案辦公室"},{"start":2438.942,"end":2443.044,"text":"本部重建家園的團隊也實地訪查災損的情形提供安置重建或者都更等專業技術諮詢以辨明有效率的方式來積極協助受災的民眾"},{"start":2464.673,"end":2482.184,"text":"在有關居住正義方面所謂的社會住宅3.0計畫：內政部在8年20萬戶的社會住宅政策已經直接興建超過10萬戶每合包租代管約7.8萬戶預計今年年底可以達到政策目標而且會提供超過52萬戶的租金補貼"},{"start":2484.685,"end":2490.812,"text":"為了落實賴總統所說的百萬租家戶的政策也已經籌劃在114年到121年新辦累計各25萬戶直接興建與包租代管設宅以及50萬戶的租金補貼"},{"start":2499.802,"end":2521.05,"text":"：預計在兩年內達成北臺灣都會區設宅全數動工．四年內完成百萬戶的目標．此外本部也會繼續提升設宅服務機能．結合淨零排放等國家政策．並且融入社福設施以及NGO提供關懷服務．讓居住生活更加溫暖跟美好．第三有關居住安全"},{"start":2521.71,"end":2539.23,"text":"居住安心任性臺灣在過去我們已經陸續完備了都更三法截至今年4月抵止都更圍牢案較106年的圍牢條例公布以前成長達6倍之多未來本部要持續精進危險建築補強或者是重建的政策方面"},{"start":2539.75,"end":2562.606,"text":"例如﹐針對危勞建物提供簡單快速的申辦流程﹐並且優化金融協助或者是稅捐減免等鼓勵誘因﹐打造﹐加速打造安全的居住環境此外本部也會將輔導各地方政府成立協助弱勢家庭防社的修善志工隊﹐透過民間活力的注入提升居住環境改善能量"},{"start":2563.246,"end":2588.977,"text":"有關淨零排放列為第4點就是國家公園淨零排放的行動計畫我們已經推動森林濕地跟國家公園自然的探會盤查並且鏈結SDG跟ESG的精神將企業社會責任導入擴大企業來參與保護保育未來4年我們將推動溫室氣體移除量倍增在國家公園內增加環境多樣性與直批覆蓋率"},{"start":2589.657,"end":2611.921,"text":"在海洋部分要結合民間共同富裕山湖並且以澎湖南方四島東沙環礁墾丁綠島等地作為優先推動區域第5推動淨零的建築轉型我們已經建構了建築能效評估計畫從112年7月起分階段由公有建築物帶頭做起引導民間建築來跟進"},{"start":2615.262,"end":2641.736,"text":"本部將持續透過公司協力的共同合作．朝著淨零永續目標來邁進。第二大面向在加強打詐跟強化治安方面一是推動公司協力打詐聯防計畫為了強化阻絕新型態的詐欺行政院在今年5月9號已經送行大院審議打詐新司法未來本部會與相關部會努力落實建立打擊數位經濟"},{"start":2643.277,"end":2662.49,"text":"金融電信詐騙的合作機制此外本部也將結合民間團體行政部門共同強化反詐宣傳以擴大民眾對詐騙手法的認識同時也會加強165的通報功能提高目前165涉詐高危險業者名單的公佈頻率讓民眾可以及時試詐"},{"start":2663.871,"end":2683.983,"text":"第二推動警力勤務精進強化治安的防治計畫我們會盤點跟檢討警察業務跟勤務的現況並且廣納各級警員的意見提出精進方案搭配事辦與成效檢討的方式來精簡警力勤務提升打擊犯罪能量另一方面針對新興販毒非法槍戒黑幫形態改變持續貫徹行政院反毒綱領並且推動專案掃蕩非法槍戒"},{"start":2691.527,"end":2714.616,"text":"．"},{"start":2714.936,"end":2738.257,"text":"強化它的功能以及完善災害潛勢圖資會讓民眾可以隨時查詢到政府規劃的防災資訊另一方面為了維護救災人員安全未來也將整合公安雲端資料庫借接公務單位的公寓大廈管委會跟物業管理名單讓搜救單位在第一時間瞭解可能受困民眾以及瞭解全盤狀況"},{"start":2739.798,"end":2749.025,"text":"第二守護關鍵基礎設施本部已經擴編保二總隊預計於114年前陸續派警力防衛民生及產業關鍵基礎設施並且持續補強警備人力跟裝備推動應變訓練參與跨單位的聯合演習以達到保安整備的目標第三推動國家的韌性整備本部已經推動韌性社區制度截至今年5月已經有2.6萬名合格防災室"},{"start":2769.56,"end":2783.922,"text":"未來將繼續與民間、學校、機構合作在一年內全國要突破五萬名的防災式的訓練同時也鼓勵企業設置自主的應變隊叫T-CERT以建構全社會全災害的防護韌性"},{"start":2784.983,"end":2811.709,"text":"第四大點就是深化民主治理跟精進人權保障在健全民選地方公職制度本部所凝聚的地方民代知己跟村里長事務補助費的修正草案貴委員會在5月8日審查通過懇請大院能夠在最近的時間三讀通過我們一定會給予大力的支持第二有關宗教健全發展本部落實推動宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理戰刑條例"},{"start":2814.349,"end":2840.917,"text":"來輔導地方解決宗教不動產問題以規劃修法延長本條例的審任期限為主會繼續保全宗教團體不動產的產權第三接軌國際人權我國在消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約的國家報告在今年4月已經提出行政部門的回應方案而且本部也凝聚了禁止酷刑跟其他殘忍不人道或有入人格之待遇或處罰公約以及認責定"},{"start":2841.977,"end":2843.077,"text":"以上簡要報告,敬請各位委員先進多多指教,謝謝"},{"start":2876.054,"end":2897.506,"text":"謝謝部長,我們讓他做完整的一些業務報告,也讓我們在場的同仁們更了解一下未來想做的業務。好,我們現在進行詢答委員質詢前,原理我們做幾點宣告。第一個就是我們每位委員發言的時間,本會委員5分鐘,不要的時候延長2分鐘好不好,7分鐘。"},{"start":2898.627,"end":2918.301,"text":"非本會委員5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出時間是在10點與本會委員詢答完畢之後我們再處理請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好 那麼我們現在就請登記第一位的書巧會委員來答詢"},{"start":2927.833,"end":2928.073,"text":"劉施芳 劉部長"},{"start":2942.117,"end":2955.743,"text":"蘇委員長部長今天第一次到立法院備詢首先要先恭喜部長老實說部長算是我們的大學姐啦過去在立法院的表現也都是以第一名的優秀立委著稱不過部長今天站在這裡的心情不一樣以後內政部的事都是你的事全國的安居樂業這個內政部的執掌我想部長真的要靠過去的經驗一肩扛起啦這先給部長加油所以該質詢的還是會質詢你啊"},{"start":2970.329,"end":2998.174,"text":"謝謝指教那部長我想今天第一次是內政部可以問的方方面面但我們當然還是先從最近的時事開始向您垂詢這個部長一定知道5月26新竹市發生了一起不幸的高樓層火警的事件那部長不曉得你有沒有掌握我們在這個事件當中有兩名消防員不幸罹難殉職這樣狀況最主要的原因是什麼部長可以簡答嗎"},{"start":2999.494,"end":2999.754,"text":"蘇美媛議員"},{"start":3016.277,"end":3030.315,"text":"電纜線短路的時候當時一段時間濃煙密佈而且可能是有毒煙所以我們的消防員進去的時候他連他的面罩裡面都被那為什麼消防員會要進去因為有民眾在裡面收到通報所以他一定要進入火場"},{"start":3030.836,"end":3050.887,"text":"是,沒有錯,他們衝進火場裡面,但是在衝進火場裡面,那第一時間內呢,他出來以後又有聽到需要裡面再救護,所以兩位又再進去是,所以在這樣的狀況,我們根據媒體的報導,看起來是因為高樓層嘛,因為空間複雜,所以有所謂的空間迷失,最後可能因此讓消防員沒有足夠的時間離開現場而不幸殉職"},{"start":3053.829,"end":3074.683,"text":"好那部長我今天因為我也不是專業我不跟你討論原因的部分但是我想請你看一個統計數字是這近10年近10年我們總共有11件的事件是火警是在這事件裡面有消防員殉職的事故那我把這11件的消防員罹難數和民眾罹難數統計出來這樣的數字不曉得部長有沒有看出什麼端倪或署長有沒有看出什麼端倪"},{"start":3083.209,"end":3099.62,"text":"是在這幾件的統計當中我們都知道其實我們報章雜誌也想得非常多也就是說我們對於消防員在聽到有火警或是大規模這樣需要救助的時候第一個消防員自己本身的安全或者是進去之前的裝備或是訓練是否有需要檢討的空間讓我們能夠保障消防員要救助其他民眾的時候會更安全的"},{"start":3106.584,"end":3122.767,"text":"因為我們今天只有5分鐘必要時才能延長我也不知道我這個必要到底怎麼定義但是我很希望主席多給我一點時間齁那我直接跟你說啦我的看法是這樣你看我們有這麼多件是民眾罹難數是0的時候還是有消防員罹難所以呢根據這樣報章雜誌的報導裡面甚至我們可以說他是在無人的狀況下消防員為了救火災火警這個災害防救他還是必須進場"},{"start":3136.169,"end":3137.991,"text":"所以在這樣的數字當中我想問一個最簡單的問題是我們有什麼方法可以避免消防員罹難"},{"start":3158.117,"end":3167.128,"text":"部長有沒有覺得什麼方法可以進去時間的關係我直接跳接我的意見我的意見是就是不需要消防員親自進火場是最能夠減少消防員傷亡的方式"},{"start":3174.497,"end":3177.461,"text":"好我這不是異想天開而是我們是不是能夠有更多先進的科技能夠補足消防人員消防弟兄讓他們可以減少進去危險火場的機率什麼意思比如說今天的新竹市的大火其實部長剛剛您也說了"},{"start":3193.399,"end":3207.586,"text":"我們是收到通報已經救出民眾出來以後又收到說還有民眾在裡面可是我們進去以後我們不知道民眾在哪裡所以我們有沒有更好的儀器我是不太懂啦但是比如說什麼聽說是紅外線還是什麼熱感應還是什麼什麼之類的對不起我可能有說錯的部分但我的意思是有沒有更好的高科技可以讓我們更清楚的判斷消防員本身要不要進去"},{"start":3219.392,"end":3240.927,"text":"好 那這就牽涉到消防署的研究量能夠不夠我看到的是什麼我們在20我們在111年的12月成立了消防科技研發辦公室但是它的編制是什麼它的編制只有6名消防人員而且不是專責然後它的經費是什麼它的經費是只有消防發展基金會支應80萬元"},{"start":3243.288,"end":3264.469,"text":"另外是常態編列的這樣子簡單的編列而已所以你要這樣的一個單位到底能夠做出多少的科技研發來輔助消防弟兄消防人員呢我覺得很有限吧署長這幾年111年到現在也一年多快兩年啊今年成果如何有研發出什麼新的東西來嗎是"},{"start":3265.23,"end":3265.51,"text":"科技的部分目前在計畫裡面"},{"start":3283.396,"end":3291.742,"text":"針對人員定位現在正在研究好你的研究坦白講真的很多我今天是站在你的角度替你講話我甚至不是質詢你而已我質詢的是內政部因為你看我們現在的前這個科研計畫在分裂在哪幾個地方科研辦公室有9項研發計畫5項調查計畫案7項17.1的科技研發專案計畫中長的計畫也有很多啊但是他都零散的"},{"start":3308.172,"end":3321.057,"text":"所以我在這裡簡單講就是我希望達到的目的就是能夠減少消防弟兄真正進入高危險火場我希望能夠達到這個目的那我要怎麼做好 我要人給人 要錢給錢 要權給權嘛"},{"start":3324.378,"end":3324.818,"text":"新加坡內政科技局"},{"start":3344.087,"end":3368.208,"text":"一百名的科研與科技人員部門預算在2025年會達到新台幣437億元部長我覺得這個是可以考慮的方向為什麼因為我們在維護社會安全的部分其實不是只有消防我們警政也是啊甚至是空總也是啊如果這三個單位需要的科技研發是可以一起整合在一起的一個局處是真正的給人給錢給權"},{"start":3370.51,"end":3388.765,"text":"那是不是能夠做出更好的政策讓保護我們在維護社會安全的人員我覺得這是一個可以考慮的方向部長我再說一次我覺得真正能夠降低消防弟兄發生危險的狀況就是面對高危險性的火場的時候讓他們有更大的機會有更好的機制機具輔助"},{"start":3396.872,"end":3402.034,"text":"讓他們不用親身涉險我覺得這是最好的方式謝謝委員的垂詢我想你講的非常的重要我們也發現到有這方面的這個弱點需要來補強那未來不只是消防員包括警政甚至像整合我們的空總的部分在實務上面怎麼樣降低我們去救災的人他們進入高風險的區域裡面可不可以用科技的方法或是更好的方式來降低救災人員自己本身的傷亡"},{"start":3426.323,"end":3426.563,"text":"徐宇珍委員"},{"start":3452.703,"end":3480.783,"text":"主席部長好徐委員早部長我想請教您這是您上任之後的第一次要做施政計畫的一個報告那因為我看你們剛剛您有報告講說請我們參閱書面報告那在書面報告裡我看大部分講的都是1到4月的工作的一個推動的一個狀況那本席想了解的是您上任之後您想要做的計畫是什麼未來的施政重點是什麼"},{"start":3481.243,"end":3493.271,"text":"好,非常謝謝徐委員的垂詢,在我的報告裡面其實非常清楚,第一個,如果有好的內政部原來在推動了,譬如說社會住宅,那我們現在是以成倍數的部分,以前是50萬戶,未來是100萬戶,那必須要加強,但是我們重點會以北台灣,因為我們認為說最需要這個社宅的部分是以北台灣的青年族群比較多,"},{"start":3504.139,"end":3526.006,"text":"所以北台灣包括跟三四個這個縣市政府怎麼樣合作找到合一的地點來推動社會住宅或者讓社會住宅的人可以住得更安心這個時間要不要加強我們會來研議那另外謝謝部長您剛剛提到的這個社會住宅的部分我想請教你因為我在您的報告裡面的第4頁因為一般我們講的社會住宅我想這也是賴總統他競選時候提到要社會住宅要興建100萬戶"},{"start":3531.087,"end":3532.467,"text":"新建100萬戶的社會住宅好像認知是不一樣的一個是租屋一個是新建社會住宅"},{"start":3548.473,"end":3559.137,"text":"因為我從我們的報告裡面看不出計畫在哪裡進度在哪裡然後大概是怎麼樣的狀況跟徐委員報告一下您的槌尋非常的正確我們所謂的百萬戶的部分的話包括興建住宅本身還有包租代管還有租金補貼這三樣因為都可以來幫忙我們的青年怎麼樣更便宜的租屋的房市有助於他未來的就業跟就職的部分所以這三項都包括在內所以所謂的百萬戶是這三項"},{"start":3579.925,"end":3599.739,"text":"我們一般認知的新建社會住宅是25萬戶是嗎?然後50萬戶的租金補貼還有25萬戶的包租代管是嗎?所以這樣子的100萬戶其實跟我們認知當時的賴總統的政見跟您在上任的這個記者會有提到的社宅百萬戶好像有一點差別"},{"start":3600.259,"end":3602.74,"text":"社宅住屋百萬戶而不是真的社宅百萬戶"},{"start":3611.494,"end":3632.991,"text":"新建的部分是25萬戶然後包租代管還有其他的租金補貼總共加起來全部三項加起來就是100萬戶所以說當時賴總統的政見的這個社宅百萬戶的部分現在目前是指社會租屋百萬戶這樣的概念是嗎三項全部加在一起原來就是這樣子這些都叫社會住宅"},{"start":3633.791,"end":3658.272,"text":"社會住宅百萬戶的意思就是其實大部分就是25萬戶的社會住宅25萬戶的高租代管加50萬戶的租金那我想這可能跟我們一般的人認知是不太一樣因為我們一看到大概都會覺得這個大概就是社會住宅的概念那請問一下現在目前為止您說的25萬戶的社會住宅可能大概好像還需要"},{"start":3659.373,"end":3681.442,"text":"下一個8年也就是114年到121年才能夠累積25萬戶的這個新建社會住宅那請問這個時程有可能推快嗎?要不然8年的時間才25萬戶的話其實可能有更大的打擊是的 跟學文報告一下到今年年底的時候呢總共推出的就中央加地方的大約是12萬戶所以我們用這樣推算在未來到117年"},{"start":3685.58,"end":3689.236,"text":"你上面寫121年 未來的8年的話大概也是13萬戶"},{"start":3690.836,"end":3700.98,"text":"所以說等於這個進度的話可能也我想大家的感受是有點偏慢因為現在就已經12萬戶了未來8年再13萬戶其實我想我們現在任期是4年那你現在想是未來的8年才會有這個另外13萬戶所以這個計畫的編列我覺得可能要請部長這邊再能夠加快的速度進度的部分再把它補強希望能夠越快越好"},{"start":3717.046,"end":3745.715,"text":"另外再請教部長我們現在有一個國土計畫法要推動根據它第45條的規定應該在114年4月30號前公告國土功能分區圖但是到4月底之前只有金門連江、花蓮將國土功能分區圖的法定書圖提交給內政部來審議請問一下還有19個還沒有完成的政府內政部要怎麼協助他們"},{"start":3746.195,"end":3761.751,"text":"那這個計畫會不會延後?是,謝謝委員的垂詢,您講得非常的正確,確實到目前為止只有三個縣市政府提供上來,那我們在這個行政院開院會的時候,包括新北市的市長,他也提到說他對國土計畫法"},{"start":3763.112,"end":3775.859,"text":"能不能如期在6月7號以前送到內政部來審查是有一些疑慮他希望我們多做溝通那我們也瞭解到說其他的縣市政府包括有一些宗教團體或者是農漁民團體都有表達不同的意見那目前我們還是希望說他們能夠按照原來"},{"start":3782.642,"end":3802.826,"text":"由內政部的國土管理署的方向送到書圖送到我們部體頭來審議當然我們這個委員：大院的委員也有提到說有沒有需要延期的部分那延期的真正理由我們如果瞭解狀況可以馬上排解就排解如果沒有馬上排解的話我們會審慎評估也就是說國土計劃法的規定的話就是被歸列為是農業發展地區的話就不能再變更這對於農業線的影響很大"},{"start":3812.148,"end":3814.51,"text":"國土計劃法對於農業大線來說太吃虧所以說雲林縣也會暫緩提交內政部的審議"},{"start":3835.61,"end":3849.265,"text":"內政部要跟這些縣市充分的溝通,讓他們了解所有過去計劃法想要推動的重點,我相信這個部分才能夠順利的來推動,否則的話大家都覺得我們做不到,你現在把我框住,尤其是雲林縣它現在想要成為一個農工商併進的大縣,全部把它框為是這個農業用地的話,他們根本沒有辦法發展"},{"start":3855.451,"end":3875.255,"text":"這個部分再拜託部長另外最後一個問題想請教部長就是有關打詐因為現在詐騙的問題非常的嚴重就是根據警政署的統計假交友假投資的合計占全部詐欺案類的30%那我們也可以看到這個螢幕上你可以看到我們這從109年開始發生的這個詐騙的這個案件跟金額不減反增而且到去年度"},{"start":3883.797,"end":3884.777,"text":"內政部警政署加強宣導具體方案"},{"start":3906.463,"end":3914.77,"text":"謝謝徐委員的垂詢當然詐騙的部分投資的詐騙最多那目前為止我們內政部警政署所處理的部分是有關於市詐我們來加強165的宣傳之外我們也會加強這個頻率那最重要就是我們送到這個大院來要審查的新打詐釋法裡面有一個這個詐欺犯罪危害條例是警政署全面負責因為我們如果有比較好的法源基礎跟規範的話未來如果處理"},{"start":3933.746,"end":3934.226,"text":"：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議"},{"start":3961.632,"end":3962.813,"text":"好 部長 喝口水沒關係"},{"start":3991.997,"end":4013.23,"text":"優委員早謝謝主席部長早安這個內政部業務報告真的是事情很多那我們就挑一些比較重要的東西今天先跟部長做一下政策對話首先第一個問題這個本席要跟那個部長討論的是有關於居住正義的問題居住正義大概分成本席關心的題目大概分成幾個面向第一個電腦在哪裡好"},{"start":4022.179,"end":4041.756,"text":"第一個剛剛很多委員也關心這是我們社會住宅的這個建設的進度能不能順利達標因為當然我們都知道就政府在規劃我們有幾年幾百萬戶相關一些政策的時候其實喊都一定要喊高一點但實際上在執行的時候其實會遇到很多的困難跟障礙那我想請問部長大概有多少把握你們剛剛聽起來是8年後要100萬戶全部加起來100萬戶你有幾成的信心可以達標"},{"start":4045.679,"end":4069.89,"text":"跟委員報告其實我剛剛已經有跟委員報告過所謂的百萬戶的目標就是25萬戶是直接興建那50萬戶的話就是包租代款然後25萬戶的話就是屬於租金補貼那這個部分就表示說未來我們會加匯到100萬戶的年輕或是弱勢族群那以過去8年的進度到今年年底的時候呢中央跟地方政府加在一起的直接興建是12萬戶左右"},{"start":4072.671,"end":4072.831,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":4095.532,"end":4095.932,"text":"中央政府來興建"},{"start":4119.165,"end":4140.915,"text":"是由中央全面來主導還是由內政部釋出資源來補助地方大概是走哪一種模式雙方都有最主要就是說我們如果能夠提高這個興建住宅的績效比如說是中央蓋比較快我比較簡單講或者是地方蓋比較快那我們都全部都可以支持所以基本上都不會否定對不對都不會否定"},{"start":4142.706,"end":4164.414,"text":"沒有沒有 靈活調整不清楚你的主從是什麼意思就是說你要以中央為主嘛因為你規劃政策的時候你要投入資源嘛對不對如果你說中央主導興建那相對來講可能就是中央主導但是地方如果他願意興建的話對於地方人民的這個呃帶來的福利也相當的多你也會鼓勵嘛這本議只要做兩點提醒啦第一個你如果是要用中央主導興建這樣子的一個模式的話"},{"start":4165.354,"end":4184.925,"text":"那相對來說你應該要給予都市計畫相對跟地方政府你還是要合作嘛你還是要提供地方誘因嘛因為你要由中央來興建地方也要出土地嘛對不對你還是有還是有還是有虛幣的這個問題所以說中央跟地方要一起來合作來做這件事情不是只有把這個社會主體蓋出來而已我是希望內政部你有都市計畫等等一些相關的工具"},{"start":4185.345,"end":4212.038,"text":"在規劃這樣的過程中充分尊重地方的意見不只是把社會住宅蓋好而是由這個東西去帶動周邊的這個都市發展把生活機能處理好這樣子地方政府可以要到他要的東西他會比較樂意把更多土地提供出來讓中央來做社會住宅的興建你如果要走中央主導這一軌是要走這樣子的一個模式這是本席的建議第二個你如果要走大量補助地方那我就希望內政部該下的資源就要下以過去幾年本席從基層出身"},{"start":4213.559,"end":4238.701,"text":"這個從中央得到的資源還是不夠的地方建設社宅其實未來都會變成財務負擔所以說中央要隨時檢討然後釋出更多的資源給地方這樣子我們才中央地方合作才能夠上社會住宅的建設進度可以順利來達標謝謝指導我們來努力第二個是有關軟體的部分就有關社會住宅的這個現行的機制入住的機制現在是採取抽籤制就是一般戶跟政策戶抽到了就抽到了沒有抽到就下次重新來"},{"start":4239.352,"end":4264.468,"text":"那是不是有這個機會在新的政府的領導之下大家把它改成所謂的輪候制啊也就是說大家有一個積分的算法因為我有些大家需求的程度其實是可以做一個基本量化的嘛那就按照這個量化成本來做一個排隊那這個優先的就可以優先入住這一次沒有輪到下一次新的社宅蓋的時候它的優先區是提升的這樣子我覺得才符合真正公平正義的原則請問內政部針對社會住宅輪候制現在有規劃的進度嗎"},{"start":4265.529,"end":4277.863,"text":"其實有,我可以請這個署長來跟您回應一下其實我們現行的制度裡面就有留著輪候制那其實在未來的這個社宅經營裡面輪候制也會是一個很重要的制度"},{"start":4278.735,"end":4306.633,"text":"那有沒有具體上路的時間比他更明確的一點因為我們在新的全面在從大概明年開始我們會有比較大量的社宅會進入到中央的這個開始開始真的經營的時候借輪候制本來就是我們在規劃裡面很重要的一個制度所以明年初嘛沒關係你這會後你先內部的書面報告先提供給我們好不好好第三個是租屋市場透明化這個本期未來有提修法的一些相關方案希望內政部妥善引引也就是說現在只有包租的"},{"start":4307.273,"end":4323.365,"text":"的業者來做所謂的實價登錄那先從政府掌握市場狀況開始然後逐步逐步的來做透明代管的數量其實比包租多很多所以這部分應該要逐步來處理那最後包含租屋補貼其實都應該要納入嘛我們政府投入了這麼多的資源去處理這個事情"},{"start":4325.026,"end":4325.146,"text":"內政部部長"},{"start":4339.997,"end":4368.743,"text":"好我很簡單講齁轉租的部分已經納入實價的登錄齁但是包租代管的租賃契約資訊要改為即時提供的話我們還需要再跟業者來溝通那溝通好了會跟牛委員報告就一個相關的一個規劃期程啦我們一步一步往前走好謝謝好這是居住政業部分第二個時間實在很有限沒關係但我們簡單點一下本市也非常關心公寓大廈管理齁這件事情其實非常重要越來越多的台灣人民居住在公寓大廈裡面但是始終不管在地方政府也好在中央政府也好你都很難找到一個負責的專責單位"},{"start":4370.043,"end":4396.239,"text":"那我們希望未來的公益大廈管理可以再做調整我們不要每次都只是像城中城大火之後然後每次都只是針對安全的部分來處理本期重視的是軟體也就是怎麼樣建立一個健康的管理環境包含政府端你能不能夠簡化行政程序讓公益大廈管理變成一些相對輕鬆的事讓這些擔任管理委員會主委跟管理委員這些住戶不要有這麼大的負擔從廠商的角度我怎麼樣輔導社區讓他可以找到經過分級篩選"},{"start":4398.2,"end":4398.28,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4421.203,"end":4422.125,"text":"那這次今天我們開個頭相關詳細的問題跟建議我們會用書面的方式提供給內政部希望內政部也針對這件事情好好來做一個規劃"},{"start":4431.792,"end":4457.227,"text":"最後一個是本期非常重要的一個政見是行政區劃法也是現在賴總統過去做行政院長的時候曾經提出的院版的方案這個我們已經一路都有在做研究本期的選區生活圈非常破碎有很多這樣的行政區劃重新調整的必要性我們會提出相關的草案我也希望院裡面也要有一套自己的說法我們再來做詳細的討論第一建立遊戲規則第二我們的版本會要求人民的表達"},{"start":4458.268,"end":4458.749,"text":"繼續我們請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":4490.274,"end":4504.817,"text":"我請部長部長沒有休息已經在台上了但還是要有禮貌一下我要尊重召委來那個部長"},{"start":4506.229,"end":4525.427,"text":"其實我那個宗教團體以自然的名義登記不動產暫停條例其實要快到期了是那其實這個臺灣的這個宗教寺廟這個其實很多問題是由來已久的對那他們現在遇到最大的問題就是說他們很難提出"},{"start":4526.768,"end":4554.054,"text":"認定不動產為宗教團體實質所有的證明文件這個時間很久了歷史的工業那我們有沒有說想要再給他延長一些時間是 非常謝謝張委員的關心那其實我前兩天有拜訪這個中國佛教會跟大高雄的佛教會所有的這些在佛教界的這個長老或長老你也提到這樣的狀況那原則上我支持可以延長"},{"start":4555.094,"end":4565.38,"text":"第一個就是說因為地方政府在輔導這些宗教團體不管是有自然人或者是非自然人的部分呢確實我們的出家眾他比較不了解俗世裡面的這些規則那我們願意多多來支持那我想這樣子因為本來在宗教就是維持我們社會治安讓人民可以寬信的地方然後那麼為了這樣的法律上面已經時間到了不能夠再繼續做延長或做一個輔導的方面的話呢"},{"start":4582.611,"end":4601.981,"text":"反而造成他們的困擾所以我支持用這樣的延長的方向但是延長多久的時間是不是讓我們內部有作業的時間以後再跟各位委員來做報告部長我也不贊成無限期延長是你讓他無限期延長他就沒有壓力不趕快來處理當然我們是希望問題及早解決其實這個問題在台灣"},{"start":4605.143,"end":4624.282,"text":"每個宗教宗派都遇到我跟你講在很多那個教會在原住民的地方然後其實可能100年前我提供給你的那現在又很多產權的問題了那你也不可能去把它拆掉啊也不可能啊對不對各個宗教都有然後啊"},{"start":4625.143,"end":4627.385,"text":"有關於土地的這個問題不是只有這個有一些寺廟啊他是啊在"},{"start":4654.707,"end":4665.029,"text":"我們很多法令還沒有實施之前他就已經在那邊了那我們這個部分這一題還有一個有的寺廟是有國有地"},{"start":4666.072,"end":4687.248,"text":"但郭友麗現在無受不讓受啊那你問題也沒辦法解決啊那我們是不是就是說你就是在這個宗教這個廟已經既有存在了那我們應該去協調國有財產署他這個廟如果是財團法人或什麼他以後這個絕對不會變成私人財產的情況之下"},{"start":4688.029,"end":4691.23,"text":"非常謝謝張委員對宗教團體他們的需求了解得非常的深切其實我也碰到有人告訴我說有一些已經列入古蹟長達400年"},{"start":4713.078,"end":4731.974,"text":"四百年前恐怕還沒有國有財產署四百年前我們的行政區塊也不是這個樣子那我所要推動的部分就是說如果他能夠證明比如說我們取得空照圖在一百年前或是說五十年前他已經在那個地方的話他要限地當成是宗教團體或宗教場所來使用而不是營利的話其實在我們的立場上我們可以來協助他"},{"start":4738.6,"end":4752.449,"text":"根據財政部的國有財產署現在的土地讓售大概面積會很小還有就是如果你要租的話大概是九年為主那這個很多人會覺得說九年以後我要再九年再九年這樣對不對那這個部分呢我們來跟財政部來做這個溝通我的想法就第一個因為宗教團體不是盈利組織"},{"start":4760.214,"end":4760.334,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4776.12,"end":4804.787,"text":"讓這個宗廟自己本身可以存在那個地方然後不受其他的影響那至於他能不能取得國有財產地還要看他們所在的範圍第一個我們一定要有共識他們一定要避開土地所使用的敏感地帶如果他有安全疑慮的話恐怕站在我們官方的立場不敢去同意這件事但是如果沒有安全疑慮我想在高山上很多寺廟大概會有類似土石流或是地震啊等等影響"},{"start":4805.407,"end":4833.243,"text":"以外我們用其他的行政手段我們來跟地方政府一起合作反正部長我覺得啦這個問題啦不管是幾百年前的寺廟或是幾十年的寺廟我覺得我們都要去把它解決啦我覺得只有一個一個啦他如果買了這塊土地或藏住這塊土地他不能另做他用啦永遠就只能當宗教寺廟我覺得只有這樣子就可以解決很多寺廟的問題啦"},{"start":4834.224,"end":4834.784,"text":"國有財產署不在內政部我們會跟他協調"},{"start":4856.693,"end":4856.933,"text":"順便請警政署長"},{"start":4877.779,"end":4890.831,"text":"請署長你知不知道有一種現在新興的還沒有列入毒品的叫做伊托米茲知道這個是一個麻醉藥品對那我們現在查獲這個東西我們都怎麼處理"},{"start":4893.719,"end":4909.05,"text":"現在只要吵的話現在目前是用行政採訪那對行政採訪對那這個問題你知不知道現在在在我們這個社會上問題很嚴重很多年輕人就在抽這個"},{"start":4909.71,"end":4909.93,"text":"時間的關係啦這個阿"},{"start":4934.147,"end":4961.247,"text":"年輕人流行說這叫喪屍啊對就喪屍喪屍啊屍體的是喪屍跟臉我跟你講這個非常嚴重我認為署長你剛上任你應該把這個內有重點趕快把它解決啊對然後同樣的問題我們內政部應該主動跟衛福部跟什麼然後去聯繫這個你把它當成要事法去處理我覺得不對"},{"start":4962.769,"end":4982.165,"text":"這個就是毒品了尤其是販售什麼的我們應該把它積極納入啊然後積極的去抓啊我跟你講一個新興的毒品的產生你不馬上把它剷除的話以後就越來越多然後咧等它變成一個很大的這個龐大的事業鏈之後它養的越多人你越難處理"},{"start":4983.326,"end":4983.506,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5003.453,"end":5007.397,"text":"我們6月7號會就會來開會6月7號這個主席給我3、4秒這個問題很嚴重所以多久時間可以處理我不是問你什麼時候要開會"},{"start":5016.892,"end":5041.15,"text":"把他納管嘛有兩個第一個納入毒品管理第二個你們要積極有效的去查我們會積極來查來查處好不好所以6月7號你是剛是說6月7號會納入毒品是不是我們都審會會把他納入來做一個討論是把他納入做為新型毒品的一個範圍那以後把他納入法律來做來做來做取締"},{"start":5041.57,"end":5054.715,"text":"我覺得啦這個跨部會要來做啦如果你6月7號提出來跨部會積極做我認為啊3個月內就可以把它列入獨平以後就可以依法去處理了那我們還沒到之前還是會積極來做一個查處"},{"start":5055.979,"end":5056.259,"text":"王美惠委員"},{"start":5082.785,"end":5090.651,"text":"主席,我們請補充,補充,補充在這裏面看到,認真發表,可以來做補充的時候,我們非常的高興,但有很多我們內政要做的問題,所以"},{"start":5103.447,"end":5126.874,"text":"你我都是同樣為了北省來發表來合作的本身我來自嘉義市因為嘉義這幾天詐騙集團對歐里桑歐巴桑尤其想說存一段錢要投資的所以在家的營營又看到他的手機"},{"start":5127.915,"end":5136.08,"text":"看他的內、他的顧慮是否可以繼續等一段時間﹖但在本事所了解﹖大部分都放棄尤其在這個過程當中﹖他都想說﹖他的功課都有經過申請後﹖他想說﹖"},{"start":5152.406,"end":5162.235,"text":"財政的專家,他就想說這個又在電視常常看到的,他就倒數下去,倒數之後他也不知道怎麼方便你,有一天是我們的檢察局,他就說你的錢去方便你,他才知道"},{"start":5174.096,"end":5176.579,"text":"若像這樣,署長、部長,要如何叫我們的司法人員、財政人員,了解詐騙集團,如何去議訪?這是最基本的,來回答一下"},{"start":5189.893,"end":5193.094,"text":"委員我相信你對你鄉親的服務都非常好我可以跟你一樣有這種心情我們都有親戚朋友受到這種投資詐騙集團害所以我們在這裡特別提醒我們的競爭屬的同仁包括我們地方的警察局的同仁都要第一時間來提起去銀行或是去郵局"},{"start":5211.96,"end":5212.16,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5230.072,"end":5232.976,"text":"我們的165現在的來案量非常大,就是因為很多我們的鄉親朋友,尤其是在歷史的時候,都全是在家裡阿公阿嬤會打電話去問,這樣我們阻擋下來,不要讓人家拋棄的非常多,但是委員講得非常正確,我們要繼續加強"},{"start":5248.996,"end":5251.979,"text":"包括你所說的,我們現在所說的這個行政委員會通過新打造的司法,裡面有一種就是說未來,你如果在LINE或是其他的Meta或是Google這裡,有要從最入口的時候要實名制,不要說一個叫做阿鴻,去訂一個公告,結果被騙走了,這個阿鴻"},{"start":5269.215,"end":5269.355,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5286.773,"end":5292.896,"text":"事法一起通過,連後也有名人,我相信大家都知道,譬如說現在有一個名人叫王美惠,在那個地方說我現在在加疫苗要辦桌,一個人交一千塊就好,這是假的,但是我們知道這個部分之後,我們會一樣追查這種假的"},{"start":5304.36,"end":5334.343,"text":"．議員．"},{"start":5334.383,"end":5335.627,"text":"臺議或客家委或甚至有些觀光客應該來宣傳,我們內政部會努力"},{"start":5342.125,"end":5346.548,"text":"法院長,在剛才你的說明中,我相信有聽聽,沒有聽也不知道,因為你們都說,我們要發言,去議會的時候,議員要注意一下,因為現在的問題就是,他們不用見過議員,跟你們一起去吃,我邀你來台北,因為這是要給你們談的,這是內線的,"},{"start":5366.684,"end":5370.066,"text":"所以他就只割了來台北高鐵的那些高級人這是也有的所以在北京本身說實在的我們這個詐騙集團很猖獗的會覺得說雖然我們有法定在這本身本身也來說政見投資信託和顧問法的第70條的記憶"},{"start":5394.179,"end":5396.342,"text":"有說到剛才部長說的愛實名制．實名制裡面．也有漏洞的地方．救命的地方．像我們年輕人．有時候要救命去申請．這也有的"},{"start":5411.218,"end":5413.78,"text":"所以部長我的意思就是說,我們要經過加強,因為這個詐騙集團說實在的,任何人說到這個,大家都會受到氣氛,所以這個要去加強,要去處理,尤其現在的內"},{"start":5429.309,"end":5431.191,"text":"不管是年輕的、老的也好,都可以用,這是非常嚴重。．．．．．．．"},{"start":5445.609,"end":5451.434,"text":"不是說觀眾台灣覺得是打仗：這是不應該這樣：所以我都要為了打仗來發表：在這裏本席要跟你談到的就是：嘉義市的社會住宅：長久以來我開始時：也覺得我們的社會住宅：對嘉義市非常需要：尤其現在嘉義縣 漸漸已經老了"},{"start":5475.011,"end":5494.438,"text":"許多企業家都去加議官接觸：畢竟加議、加加議官、加婚姻是共同生活圈：所以在這範圍內：婚姻委、加理事的社會主宰、加無情、加規"},{"start":5495.999,"end":5496.219,"text":"感謝委員對於"},{"start":5525.902,"end":5526.042,"text":"因為我們這幾年時間夠了"},{"start":5554.297,"end":5564.761,"text":"．應忙稍為阻撓．麻煩委員給我．因為有很多．我們自己企業的建設．需要您的幫助．以上好 謝謝美會委員的質詢．謝謝部長．謝謝署長．繼續我們請李博義委員來質詢．謝謝部長請你先回座3分鐘"},{"start":5582.459,"end":5589.505,"text":"好請部長先休息謝謝來我們請警政署消防署移民署張署長還有蕭署長以及鍾署長"},{"start":5600.934,"end":5629.2,"text":"委員好謝謝來三位署長兩位熱的那內政部在五月的時候五月十幾號的時候宣布了一個錦霄移空深夜勤務津貼也就是對於錦霄移空的基層同仁們對於0到12晚上12點到早上6點的這個勤務的加班費加急的部分那署長有沒有聽到什麼反應正面或反面還可以加強的地方"},{"start":5630.283,"end":5654.015,"text":"好那目前就是0點到6點每個小時是加100塊那現在這個加的這個一樣是大概就是以出勤務的為主出勤務的只要有排班的有排班出勤務比如講像是巡邏守望或者是被請受理民眾報案有出勤務的好出去的去執勤的為主那如果是在"},{"start":5654.915,"end":5654.975,"text":"國土署署長"},{"start":5680.543,"end":5699.299,"text":"有一個心態就是希望你趕快來做一個調整過去臺灣我們的住宅政策包含現在我們的設宅的興建的進度由我們前花次然後現在住都中心的董事長花敬群那他"},{"start":5700.091,"end":5720.46,"text":"放手去繼續做這些國家社會住宅的這些新建規劃等等的我覺得這個是過去他主導但是現在你有一個很重要的責任跟工作就是說對於縣市政府他們當然我們國家的制度是這樣子對於縣市政府的重劃之後的這些底廢地"},{"start":5721.66,"end":5743.035,"text":"還有縣市政府對於社宅興建的配合度的比例我希望國土署這邊來研議出一套如果這個縣市政府他的社宅興建量是多的然後他的社宅興建量比例或者是以比如說以112、113年年度的社宅興建比例我們這樣算一下"},{"start":5744.095,"end":5764.497,"text":"對於這些縣市政府送上來的勢力重劃或者是區斷徵收的這些核定那國土署這邊應該要予以適度的這些增減它的這個底廢地的比例我的意思是說國土署我們在一開始在核定的時候我們就要當股東"},{"start":5765.814,"end":5776.845,"text":"我們當股東的目的我們要當這個縣市政府要重劃的股東當股東的目的是為了籌設更多的社會住宅不然你看這樣子臺中市政府"},{"start":5778.271,"end":5779.031,"text":"其實我們現在的做法就是先把所有未來的整體開發案"},{"start":5810.048,"end":5827.093,"text":"主義縣市會去控管他的案子也就是說直接去下到他所有的新的案子裡面去做管控這是實務上最直接而且會核對他周圍社宅的興建狀況"},{"start":5828.473,"end":5856.505,"text":"如果周圍的社宅少那個地方控管就會特別多我覺得你就是要拿這一個縣市我就拿臺中跟高雄來或臺南來當例子好了這三個縣市的重劃的底廢地那你內政部在核定的時候是不是就應該拿他當年或前一年的這個社會住宅的興建的量來做一個審核之外那也要適度的放入內政部要當股東來做社會興建社會住宅的一個空間"},{"start":5857.225,"end":5862.807,"text":"感謝委員：言應之後書面資料來跟我做我們一定會朝這個方向來做我要請部長上台了現在有請部長李委員好謝謝部長部長在左營跟南子也就是我現在的選區"},{"start":5878.494,"end":5900.424,"text":"過去8年的期間那留下了一些建設那我必須要持續的來做追蹤昨天立法院通過了這個立法院職權侵蝕法的一些修正那部長你以後不能對我反質詢但是我同意部長對我反質詢內容我來講"},{"start":5902.206,"end":5920.678,"text":"新台17縣的進度這是我要問你的因為這是從你當立委任內來不斷推動推動到換了10個國防部長換了10個市政府的公務局長只有立委還持續的在追蹤這一條目前的進度我想我會繼續來追蹤這個進度然後我也"},{"start":5923.16,"end":5952.022,"text":"發言的部長其實整個內政部的這個工作報告裡面有好多選區的事情要做那未來都要跟部長這邊還有所屬的包含國土署、自然公園、國家自然公園然後還有一些濕地的管理還有污水、再生水的管理未來都要跟部長持續的來探討我們全力支持我講新台17縣"},{"start":5953.303,"end":5980.352,"text":"新台17縣其實現在包含到南段北段已經動工然後未來的這個中海路我們現在已經在跟國防部包含這個海軍總醫院我們也在跟衛福部爭取海軍總醫院的提升未來海軍總醫院做一個社區型的醫院它可以支援到社區之外新台17到這個南段的工程南段接受路也在破寬"},{"start":5981.932,"end":5984.234,"text":"李委員的任內比較重要的一件事情就是說我們把這個"},{"start":5998.982,"end":6003.604,"text":"委員提到不管是未來的用水用電包括像男子的這個污水的處理廠變成再生水的部分我們當然也都全力支持"},{"start":6022.734,"end":6045.905,"text":"新台17縣原先是屬於生活圈道路,那是屬於原來的內政部營建署,也就是國土管理署所轄管的範圍,我們一定全力支持那再來就是國防部內部的代差代鑑,如果他進度可以超前的話,那未來國土管理署有關於鋪設道路的部分,讓他可以銜接到左營高鐵站,那我想可以如期如質完成"},{"start":6046.365,"end":6047.386,"text":"謝謝部長,那我們也一併來解決國貿社區的這些私人道路問題"},{"start":6060.309,"end":6077.708,"text":"繼續我們請蔓怡貞委員來質詢蔓怡貞委員質詢前我先宣告兩件事情第一件事情是在黃建斌委員質詢結束之後我們休息5分鐘第二件事情是跟委員會報告今天下午原定約3點召開的數位身份證換發政策還有預算執行調閱專案小組"},{"start":6080.991,"end":6100.923,"text":"第二次的全體委員會會議．討論本專案小組運作後續的事宜．我們開會的時間改為下午1點30分開始好嗎謝謝大家那我們現在請蔓玉珍委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席我們有請內政部部長有請劉部長"},{"start":6105.589,"end":6133.062,"text":"麥委員好部長好請教一下因為我們新竹市東區有一棟大樓就是在27號火災有兩名消防人員協助疏散20多名的住戶後來就是二度進入火場所以最後兩名就在因為氣頻耗盡而導致在就是階梯間"},{"start":6134.201,"end":6154.102,"text":"所以兩名同仁就因為這樣子殉職了我們感到非常難過和不捨我們並不希望這樣的悲劇一再而發生所以呢沒多久就是在我們的屏東名陽大火現在又是有消防殉職這樣的悲劇"},{"start":6156.424,"end":6182.959,"text":"消防人員總是這樣出生入死保護我們人民人生的安全他們的工作安全跟需要被重視人事長也說目前修法的方向朝修正消防法另外職安專章的處理目前修法的進度如何預計什麼時候有出來我們的願板願板要出來"},{"start":6185.808,"end":6212.545,"text":"是,非常謝謝麥委員尤其對於前兩天這個新竹的高層大樓還有在更早之前屏東的名陽工廠的大火那我們也非常的不捨尤其是消防員他們的殉職那我們也非常了解必須要從法律上面趕快能夠加強讓我們的消防員他們在他們的職業安全衛生保障上面獲得一定程度的一個制度上的保障那現在其實在我們內政部在"},{"start":6215.146,"end":6227.802,"text":"前4月2號的時候已經把11條的草案送到行政院去那這個詳細的細節的部分我是不是可以請我們的蕭署長來跟您回應一下好嗎"},{"start":6229.395,"end":6248.751,"text":"感謝委員對消防的關心目前消防法修正案包括治安專章已經在4月30號傳報到行政院那行政院正在排審那也會依據我們未完委員會的決議一個月裡面5月15號開會的時候的決議一個月裡面報到立法院來審議謝謝委員"},{"start":6251.814,"end":6275.672,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝雖然是依地方的制度法規定消防事務屬於地方的管理但各縣市可以提報消防人員需求的給中央所以呢消防署在依照所提需要的規劃以估計配發的額度新竹消防局113年編制"},{"start":6278.254,"end":6305.348,"text":"人員的額度有380人但是預算額度有336人現在原額只有323人現在又新竹又發生這樣子的兩位同仁英勇的殉職人力缺口更為廣大了為了充足人力重振同仁的士氣並且落實就是"},{"start":6309.611,"end":6326.044,"text":"內政部消防署是否同意提高就是在發113年的四等警察特考的員額這個是我們的新竹這邊的希望"},{"start":6329.435,"end":6348.986,"text":"謝謝麥委員的關心我們在當日的時候包括新竹市長高鴻安他也提到說他們在新竹市消防人員不足的地方那署長剛也在現場那我們答應就是說在短暫時間內趕快把合格的消防人員補足這一點大概新竹市長非常了解"},{"start":6349.206,"end":6350.146,"text":"行政院政副院長也要求跟考試院秘書長通電話希望說他在未來的消防員特考"},{"start":6373.018,"end":6374.399,"text":"對,我們內政部長剛上任,但是我們很多事情都準備好了,對,很感謝"},{"start":6396.218,"end":6401.901,"text":"所以我們的新竹消防局也是說有很多就是消防車就是要那個老舊就是要購買所以呢依據說我們的115年購買就是並更新兩部50公尺的雲梯車還有一部就是60公尺的雲梯車為了消防局同仁也是"},{"start":6423.61,"end":6431.373,"text":"出勤的時候擁有新的就更更有救火的車輛但是是否提高購買這樣子的車輛來維護救火的那個效能對這個部分"},{"start":6440.455,"end":6454.506,"text":"很感謝委員我們對於新竹市雲梯車的補助我們有兩個計畫一個是老舊消防車第二期汰換會補助新竹市有一部50公尺以上的雲梯車那這個計畫是在"},{"start":6456.127,"end":6456.707,"text":"所以什麼時候會執行?"},{"start":6484.025,"end":6493.514,"text":"而後續的年度我們再跟新竹市來討論說他什麼時候可以來執行配合他的需求來做調整我們盡可能來做檢討謝謝委員因為現在我們有人力還有設備的需求所以因為上一次在我們的火災大樓就總共28層對不對但是因為我們的新竹的消防就"},{"start":6508.847,"end":6512.11,"text":"藍旗的出動78公尺的階梯車才能就是要去有這樣子的協助的救災"},{"start":6533.533,"end":6562.621,"text":"所以希望說我們的考量未來就是這樣子的案件我們能提早可以買到這樣子的車的話不是說車越高越好但是因為我們的空間還有地方但是如果考量說近代都市快速發展以及就是我們國道道路的狀況未來是否購買高度更好的必要這個部分我們也要去考量"},{"start":6567.882,"end":6574.566,"text":"馬上可以救得到這樣的話我們人民才安全還有我們燒房人員也安全"},{"start":6590.379,"end":6590.82,"text":"原住民文字"},{"start":6607.376,"end":6609.018,"text":"國土計劃法則攸關部落族人的土地跟居住正義"},{"start":6631.095,"end":6652.944,"text":"近年來有非常多的地方政府他認為好像有一些施行的問題希望延後來施行可是呢對於部落裡面他有不同的聲音因為在部落裡面大概有攸關8萬戶以上的住宅合法化他的那個政策是必須要推動的請問一下部長這個部分你應該怎麼處理如果其他的縣市有意見的話"},{"start":6653.424,"end":6677.821,"text":"是,謝謝高金委員的垂詢我們也針對這個部分在內部做過討論根據我們現在的這個行政程序如果國土計劃法要公布的話是要全國一致來公布那我們正在想想看說有沒有可能是縣市縣市來推動那另外就是您所提到的在原住民的很多朋友他們認為國土計劃法越快通過的話對於房舍的合法化會取得一定的保障"},{"start":6683.485,"end":6706.377,"text":"我們就來研議看看有沒有可能就是原住民的鄉鎮部落的話先來通過但是這個一定要經過法律上的一個程序那如果程序符合的話我是完全支持這樣的立場因為我們也知道而且我自己本身也在很多原住民部落在走動都有聽到這樣的聲音也非常謝謝高經緯的關心那未來如果有這樣可以修正的話也請高經緯多多支持"},{"start":6708.058,"end":6733.507,"text":"既能夠符合各縣市他們的需求也符合原住民的土地正義因為過去數十年來我們政府的政策對於山地管制或者是土地規劃他根本沒有考量到我們部落的所需所以造成部落非常多都是違建所以過去因為政策不周延造成了族人權益的損失我相信原民會跟內政部我們應該要趕快來處理好不好"},{"start":6734.087,"end":6761.236,"text":"也就是說住宅合法化還有土地計畫需要制定的原住民族土地使用規則作為未來原住民部落土地使用的規範在這裡我有幾點建議第一個建議就是也請吳署長是不是能夠理解也來趕快處理第一個就是我們希望3個月之內由內政部和園民會邀集中華民國建築師工會我們來召開部落住宅合法化"},{"start":6761.796,"end":6782.53,"text":"推動研討會,然後這能夠來匯集部落需求,廣納專家學者的意見,我們擬定部落住宅合法化的作業規範,這有沒有可能?這可以,我們還會可能會再加邀相關的水保技師那一類的,一起就是說來探討,就是說原住民的這個住宅要合法的話"},{"start":6783.15,"end":6784.05,"text":"部長跟署長比我更清楚知道尤其在30個3D箱裡面"},{"start":6810.359,"end":6839.431,"text":"因為他們的土地區分不能夠劃定為農事所以內政部跟這個委員會我們是必須保障所謂的零星住戶的住宅使用他的權利應該要比照農事這樣子才符合部落生活所需要對不對吳署長您了解這件事情吧這一點就會跟剛剛第一個會兩個扣在一起就是說今天不光是只有土地合法的問題其實他必須跟建管跟水保全部扣在一起才有辦法正確去否則只有土地"},{"start":6844.214,"end":6858.726,"text":"第三個就是要保障現行非都市土地使用管制規則的第45跟第46條也就是原住民申請興建自用住宅的規定也就是所謂的一生一次的規定可以嗎"},{"start":6859.286,"end":6860.768,"text":"若實以三地相為單位,辦理鄉村規劃,劃定部落未來的發展區域"},{"start":6876.668,"end":6903.008,"text":"這個我們當然會努力協助了地方政府只要他願意提出申請我們都會來支持他們好 所以以上四點都沒有問題嗎接著下來我要希望那個署長和部長能夠儘速召集地方政府來溝通國土計畫的施行如果地方政府有意見的話是不是可以請他們正面表列他們的所有的疑問而不是說反對然後就講不出理由是不是請署長跟部長辛苦一下好嗎"},{"start":6903.268,"end":6905.169,"text":"111年到114年度的殯葬設施量能提升計畫僅僅剩1年就要結束了"},{"start":6921.599,"end":6941.006,"text":"經費也全數的分配完畢但是部長應該非常的清楚山地鄉有很多的公所因為中央的經費不足沒有經費施作也因為海拔跟水源保育區設置冰藏設施是有環評跟水保法規上的限制這導致有非常多的原鄉難以提報計畫請問部長你是不是可以承諾我們原鄉這項計畫是可以延續辦理嗎"},{"start":6947.068,"end":6949.709,"text":"還有各個原住民地區他的特殊性比如說簡化申請的程序部長也可以協助嗎"},{"start":6967.159,"end":6970.101,"text":"水保會對他們來講比較貴但是我們可以找相關的水保或者是土木工程技師或是營建技師來幫忙"},{"start":6986.872,"end":7001.1,"text":"我相信這幾點在部落的族人聽到其實是滿開心的希望說未來能夠對於原住民地區的需求我們的政府官員都會非常的理解第三個議題我就是要講到我們的獵槍的權益了獵槍權益4至803號檢視的原住民的獵槍獵槍的規範的議題上面我開了三次的協調會"},{"start":7008.624,"end":7027.754,"text":"最高法院的判決也同意逐人自治還有保證安全性的前提下會朝雙軌制的方案訂定規範警政署跟人民會今年也召開了三次的會議但是呢還沒有修正完成請問一下部長列腔辦法修正的困難點到底是什麼"},{"start":7028.314,"end":7047.689,"text":"好那現在我們還是同意雙軌制來做進行雙軌制那這個新的就是從國外進口的零件那就是沒有檢測問題那現在就是我原住民自己自製的列槍現在我們在制定這一些檢測的這一個這個方式方法"},{"start":7048.169,"end":7066.295,"text":"到底有哪個單位來檢測那我們進行會會來做決定到底是要從有比較有能力的國防部他們來做這個檢測的這個單位那這樣就能夠確定好什麼時候請問署長我們大概在下個禮拜有一個有個會要來開要來召集他們來開這個會"},{"start":7067.355,"end":7090.383,"text":"好的謝謝署長我會持續的關心這個部分第4個議題要講到的就是我們最辛苦的警察同仁的權益了我知道5月17號行政院有合併警政人員為勞性勤務的津貼也就是說12點到6點會只給每小時100塊的實質補貼但是實際我們算換算的時候看一下出任的員警他的時薪是176加100元的補貼是276塊"},{"start":7095.145,"end":7110.118,"text":"平價料理店員時薪250塊70塊津貼加起來是320塊你們可以看到這樣的一個落差警察即便是有深夜為勞性勤務津貼實際上他的薪水"},{"start":7110.638,"end":7110.678,"text":"主席"},{"start":7126.101,"end":7126.121,"text":"部長："},{"start":7144.395,"end":7145.476,"text":"我來回應好了,我想高經委員所提的非常的正確"},{"start":7172.154,"end":7193.282,"text":"因為我們是6月1號才開始實施那未來要不要重寬來做認定的話我們會跟警政署來做商量如果可以重寬的話我們盡量從重寬的方向來進行什麼時候可以讓我們知道可以重寬因為我們6月1號才開始實施是不是實施一段時間譬如說三個月幾個月以後我們再讓滾動式的方式來檢討"},{"start":7194.022,"end":7195.703,"text":"我們也請部長明日我要審查的是都員條例也請我們這個部長也能夠跟我們支持好不好"},{"start":7224.867,"end":7225.007,"text":"黃婉嫻委員"},{"start":7247.318,"end":7270.74,"text":"好 謝謝主席 欸 部長都沒有下去了有請部長沒關係 謝謝部長好 我今天看了一下跟今天來的很多委員都穿球鞋跟牛仔褲這樣其實是符合我們韓院長藐視國會的定義喔所以 好險我今天沒有穿球鞋好 謝謝部長我來跟您請教一下您現在就是這個藐視國會最通過的您會緊張嗎"},{"start":7274.202,"end":7301.448,"text":"我還是希望因為今天很多新的我們部會首長都上任了也是安慰大家鼓勵大家一下啦因為現在這個法通過了公務員真的人人自危希望大家在位子上都可以安心的做這個工作啦還是會努力的做大家的後盾"},{"start":7302.088,"end":7327.305,"text":"好那先請教一下這個軟腳蝦建築因為這個其實在4月3號花蓮地震之後其實很多人都有關心的後續就是上面有一些就是黃丹建築的部分那當時我有問到就是當時的部長就是現在這個軟腳蝦建築的強化耐震的規範現在我們通知相關民眾的機制是什麼"},{"start":7328.146,"end":7345.514,"text":"那當時我問這個前部長他們是跟我們說108年到110年有大概的盤點出來可是到現在其實數字還是不是很明確我想要請教一下部長跟我們署長現在手上有沒有相關的資訊了全國大概有多少棟的軟腳蝦建築呢請署長來先跟您回應一下"},{"start":7354.54,"end":7379.789,"text":"跟委員報告我們當時是篩了三萬六千多件那大概其中有大概一萬兩千多件是屬於我們大概認定在在結構上是認為是有疑慮的那所以當時就把這些資料就通知各縣市政府請他代為通知這些大樓的官委會或所有全人讓他們可以知道說他自己的大樓本身存在的結構疑慮是這個意思"},{"start":7381.274,"end":7382.074,"text":"更穩報告大概不到100棟"},{"start":7399.551,"end":7423.69,"text":"不到100棟這個就是我現在最擔心的就是通知歸通知啦但是真的願意自己去做內政補強的大樓或是公寓或是相關的這個建築其實非常少非常少那我不知道現在國土署有沒有針對這樣的情形有沒有一些再去加強或者是我們還可以怎麼進一步的來"},{"start":7425.211,"end":7453.785,"text":"鼓勵民眾來申請然後或者是說他們自己趕快針對自己住的環境來做更安全的加強呢根文報告其實我們大概分兩個面向第一個當然我們在今年以後我們還是會重新再盤點把過去快篩的成果跟他們現在在執行的方向那如果沒有的話第一個我們當然還是會持續請地方政府要通知他們因為政府有提供補助"},{"start":7454.345,"end":7471.301,"text":"出享品的補助那其實他們只要自己做了出享品自己就可以來做決定要不要往下一階段的內政補強或是這個採取重建要去再做我想這一今年我們還是要來做這件事情第二個呢其實他會跟這一個"},{"start":7472.202,"end":7472.362,"text":"公安檢查"},{"start":7494.716,"end":7506.193,"text":"8層樓以上的建築物他就可以先開始慢慢來增強他對公安的一個要求把他納進去的話那對於這一個住戶來講他是有更強的提醒的作用"},{"start":7506.778,"end":7533.94,"text":"是的那當然我也不希望變成說我們在擾民啦但是因為這個其實都是大家自己住的環境的安全問題所以怎麼樣就是可以官民合作然後讓大家整體的環境變得更安全這是我非常關心的那我也知道說內政部本來有強制規定說1999年以前的旅館醫院商場等用途的房屋強制要進行耐震評估"},{"start":7534.56,"end":7535.221,"text":"消防署署長"},{"start":7556.189,"end":7576.407,"text":"好最後一點時間我來請教一下這個新竹的這一案喔因為這一案其實大家看完會覺得說有點困惑然後有點覺得說比較比較多爭點到目前這個調查的原因還尚待釐清包括說因為他的起火點是在地下室可是到最後是在高層樓"},{"start":7577.788,"end":7577.988,"text":"請求支援"},{"start":7595.185,"end":7618.31,"text":"感謝委員關心新竹的火災我們在第一時間我們的火調人員跟災調會人員都已經到現場開始啟動調查作業那火災的原因事實上剛才委員他的火災的地方只有地下一樓的電纜線間然後往上那往上延燒的範圍也不是很大就是在管道間沒有對外的延燒整個是整個大樓充滿因為電纜線"},{"start":7621.651,"end":7623.613,"text":"昨天還是在現場做接續的一個調查"},{"start":7648.454,"end":7667.646,"text":"調查報告會由新竹市來做製作我們來做今天報告書的題列謝謝署長的說明當然這個火調還是由地方的消防局去進行我覺得調查是一個但我覺得最重要的還是消防員本身的安全因為我們真的很不想看到消防員再殉職了"},{"start":7668.226,"end":7694.529,"text":"那我想要問的是因為現在在討論消防員要不要組工會但我認為組工會之外有另外一個很重要的就是消防員可不可以直接適用職安條例適用職安專章那這個我不知道現在我們消防署的看法是什麼是跟委員回報5月15號衛環委員會在審查工會法的時候有做決議是要消防署 行政院在一個月把消防法"},{"start":7695.269,"end":7723.092,"text":"列入職安專章的條文報導立法院來審議那這個條文我們在4月30號已經報導行政院那曾經預計會在立法院的決議把消防法裡面有職安專章的條文列進去那除了職安專章以外事實上我們也提列後續職安的5年的中程計劃也就不是光是只有法律而是在執行面我們怎麼參考生根計劃的配合"},{"start":7723.752,"end":7743.137,"text":"有專業團隊來協助地方政府來強化地方人員的安全當然這個強化不是只有臺灣本身的強化事實上我們職安署勞研所美國日本的經驗我們都融入當成一個推動的一個重要項目我想這個跟委員回報那詳細情形如果委屈的話我們再跟著"},{"start":7743.677,"end":7759.912,"text":"好 這些資料也麻煩提供給我因為520新政府上任我希望之前你們的這些承諾都還是會繼續推動然後最後我再次強調消防員的資訊權、退避權還有現在的這些職安的權利拜託我們消防署成為消防員最大的後盾謝謝好 非常謝謝黃婕委員的質詢也謝謝蕭署長 謝謝繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢質詢後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":7776.594,"end":7780.797,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請 有請我們的部長請 劉部長黃國榮你好部長好你好部長 那個 雖然我們昨天通過了我們的那個執行刑事法不過保證不用煩惱啦 雖然我是國民黨的立委但是我們自己工作做好 大家都沒事是因為我相信我們來這裡 是為了改觀我們社會和國家的問題不是為了要理解我們的國民靈魂 是這個部分 我相信我們要這樣共識"},{"start":7805.293,"end":7805.493,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":7824.438,"end":7839.609,"text":"預計是明年4月但是現在地方政府或者是有一些團體有不同的想法跟建議那我會認為說可能我們溝通不足包括地方政府或是一些公民團體或是其他的部分我們會來做比較好的溝通的方向"},{"start":7840.117,"end":7860.493,"text":"不然我覺得回憶是一個很好的東西還可以提醒我們發生過去的事情那些還沒有做我記得我在之前在我們頂級的補典簽告過說國土計畫法要實施之前有一個東西很重要就是說國土計畫土地使用管制規則這個補典甘已經預告了根文報告4月26號已經預告了4月26號已經預告了那民眾知道了嗎"},{"start":7869.526,"end":7882.3,"text":"根本報告其實我們當時都很早就告知地方政府會在那個時間點所以其實通常就是各縣市政府他也會趕快周知給民眾讓他可以去了解這樣的內容謝謝署長署長那個現在是這樣"},{"start":7885.163,"end":7910.06,"text":"我想這個消息出來之後：很多的指甲室：包括南部、南北都有關系：這些農民、這些漁民都很煩惱那我想：是不是我想建議不能只有公告這一塊：應該是可以跟各縣市來合作：包括辦公室、辦公廳會：聽聽我們地方的聲音：跟我們：讓我們的農民什麼可以做、什麼不可以做：讓這個法能夠推動順利那部長是不是同意這樣的建議"},{"start":7913.064,"end":7935.224,"text":"吳委員剛才講的部分我完全可以同意因為連我也不了解現在國土計劃法所包括的範圍內管治政府怎麼會有不一樣的聲音因為它很早以前就按照行政程序去公告地方政府包括都發單位或者是縣市政府都知道那現在我看到每個地方的縣市政府的包括民意代表也提出不同的想法"},{"start":7935.905,"end":7958.936,"text":"那所以我想既然大家都有這樣子的一個想法跟質疑的話﹖我們要凝聚共識之前﹖最好能夠再多聽聽大家的聲音但是因為還沒有凝聚共識﹖所以原來我們所設定的期程是還沒有改變﹖因為時間還沒到需要改變的話﹖我們會跟著做一下滾動式的檢討我相信部長你五分鐘去拜訪我們這位總教授﹖我們這位領袖﹖應該也是十秒鐘也說了很多歡樂的事情給你聽"},{"start":7963.218,"end":7968.983,"text":"農民團體也有,原住民團體也有不同的聲音農民團體是一塊,不像那個,我看到你有提及,宗教團體以治安人民於根據不動產處理暫行條例延長辦理支持延長,那延長多久還沒有確定"},{"start":7986.135,"end":8010.609,"text":"我想跟我們當時前部長李耀昌的態度是一致的但是他有提到說要將我們內政部同步研議 制定這個宗教法人法保錦 剛剛說了宗教法人法 現在要做什麼?我要跟委員做一個不一樣的概念我認為在宗教團體內 服務的人 人 不是神才是我們內政部需要去服務跟幫忙的部分"},{"start":8011.169,"end":8021.672,"text":"那宗教法人法事涉很廣,因為宗教法人法到後來會變成大的宗廟團體才會做,小的,譬如說我們可能地方上當中的土地公廟啦,或是說貓族群啦,小小行啊,他們不會去處理這個啦,那如果是這樣的狀況之下,你沒有辦法涵蓋"},{"start":8028.974,"end":8040.089,"text":"所有在宗教團體裡面服務人員他們自己的權益保障的話貿然就進入所謂的宗教法人法因為宗教法人法類似跟財團法人行政法人一樣你還要當屬定還要你幹不屬定定所以我覺得還需要再從長計議回去會做一下檢討"},{"start":8046.316,"end":8070.861,"text":"謝謝部長有這麼詳細的說明因為時間太悠閒我又有更多問題想跟部長討論我們就講一下居住正義的部分現在高房價讓我們年輕人看不見未來部長那天電台當官出門也起得很快這三年起了20%我們前幾天看到內政部發布的新稿就是說呼籲業者不要以碳費來徵收作為烘台價格的房價的這個"},{"start":8072.281,"end":8074.322,"text":"民眾會好奇究竟我們碳費會不會影響到房價"},{"start":8090.676,"end":8112.942,"text":"報告委員 這個所謂的碳費 所謂的0.9的這個部分他是在建築研究所裡面的一個討論的部分那事實上現在碳費的制定或是有關未來的淨零的這個轉型的部分是由環境部來主導可是我已經要求我們的次長跟我們的建築研究所現在要類似開公聽會或是開一個建築研究的討論"},{"start":8114.262,"end":8119.466,"text":"把真正有需要做這個探費或是探規範或是探盤查的部分把它釐清楚你不是隨便拋出一個數字然後就引起包括說買房子的人或者是蓋房子的恐慌這0.9怎麼來外面說10%你怎麼變成0.9所以這個部分我們站在一個官方的立場一定要適時能夠釐清這個狀況但是我們絕對不會貿然而然"},{"start":8137.401,"end":8137.801,"text":"請部長持續關注這個問題"},{"start":8163.021,"end":8190.418,"text":"另外我要感謝對拜的時間 內政部有跟本席下去台中考察所以我先謝謝內政部的協助我們剛才說的是消防弟兄的問題我們這次看了資本消防問題 謝謝內政部的允諾來協助那是很老舊的在這樣的環境執勤 真的對我們的弟兄也不公平那我想要問一下部長過去八年 過去八年 你知不知道有多少我們的保安在因公殉職 署長你知道嗎"},{"start":8192.293,"end":8215.049,"text":"過去一段時間的事故我們都列入檢討21個弟兄因公殉職造成21個家庭的破碎我想我們不要死後哀悼也不要悲情的哀悼我想要做的這也要做的是說讓我們每一個下榜弟兄能夠安全的從救災的現場回來這是我們要努力的部分那我想經過前天那個新竹的事情也想"},{"start":8216.09,"end":8216.55,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8235.75,"end":8263.07,"text":"委員長,好的警察不是垂手可得,他們不是隨時短期培訓就可以養成,他就長時間的培養。那在這邊我想,因為警務組現在在未來的警力的這個禁用訓練、退休及儲備上,是不是有更與時俱進的做法跟更完善的規劃?那這邊本是一個小小的建議,臺東縣這個高階的員警的員額不多,那是不是未來能夠在升遷上能夠考慮以在地的人力優先?"},{"start":8264.311,"end":8265.231,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8291.656,"end":8294.297,"text":"備請如果有出去處理是可以列進去的有受理民眾報案有出請的話是可以列進去"},{"start":8309.445,"end":8309.585,"text":"謝謝署長：謝謝部長"},{"start":8332.924,"end":8333.284,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8778.311,"end":8783.194,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早安 大家好 有請部長我們有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":8810.932,"end":8838.012,"text":"張委員你好部長好恭喜你擔任我們新任的這個內政部長那期待未來這個朝野和諧那你可以我們一起努力來為我們國人一起來打拼那首先跟這個部長報告在昨天這個我們院會有通過了國會改革的無法經過了四次院會大家都非常辛苦那這邊要想要先跟部長請教你支持國會改革嗎我支持在合憲範圍下的國會改革"},{"start":8839.773,"end":8855.967,"text":"好謝謝部長部長我這邊有查到一個資料就在2015年的8月17號那時候蔡英文政府當時在準備要競選這個總統的時候他有到高雄來去拜會就是來跟陳菊那時候你是當時是要參選立法委員"},{"start":8857.067,"end":8872.882,"text":"當時蔡英文政府他就有推他有一個五大改革其中一個就是啟動這個國會改革那我這邊念一段給你聽齁那當時蔡英文政府他講了一段有關於國會改革的內容是說民進黨不會因為有機會執政就排斥國會的制衡"},{"start":8873.822,"end":8900.276,"text":"國會對行政部門的進度力量一定要專業而有力而專業而讓行政立法的民主制衡關係能相輔相成國會應該是總統的禁止在野黨也不應該看成執政黨的敵人那還有特別講未來如果當時的蔡英文參選人擔任總統絕不害怕國會監督因為他不會是一個獨行獨斷的總統也不會是一個拒絕民意的總統更不會是一個維護一黨之勢的總統"},{"start":8902.057,"end":8926.203,"text":"所以這邊我還是希望說當時那時候你在參選這個立法委員後來順利當選那我希望說大家可以一起來努力針對國會改革來往前行可是很可惜的我們看到這個行政院在昨天晚上就發佈了在臉書上發佈說他對國會改革的部分他說要引請他"},{"start":8927.003,"end":8946.946,"text":"要移請立法院復議以及尊重民進黨黨團的三讀通過後尊重民進黨黨團要釋憲我這邊是覺得非常的遺憾行政院感覺起來好像已經事有準備要對國會改革提出意見"},{"start":8947.907,"end":8963.128,"text":"那這邊我也是針對這個行政院的內容仔細的去研讀他對國情報告國會改革無法裡面的國情報告藐視國會人事同意權以及調查權都有意見其中唯一一個他沒有提出意見就是聽證權的部分那相信"},{"start":8963.829,"end":8984.948,"text":"可能現在在聽政權的部分他們現在是比較有一致的貢獻所以這邊也希望部長在未來禮拜四的院會的時候可以幫這個不管是在野黨或當時的蔡英文前總統一起來發聲記得說當時民進黨是支持國會改革的而且他有一段論述那當時我相信您在現場那所以希望這個部長可以來幫忙來協助"},{"start":8989.051,"end":9013.957,"text":"那第二個我要帶部長來回答的部分就是說在這個國會改革的時候相信在院外聚集了非常多的這個年輕人那麼成為這次的行動叫做親鳥行動那這個行動中我相信民眾去大型的集會場所都是正常的讓我們予以尊重那可是在現場的時候我是請這個警政署長可以一起來幫忙一下"},{"start":9014.597,"end":9038.628,"text":"在現場的時候民進黨的政治會執行長王毅川先生說他可以針對民進黨已經透過手機的這個電信信令的服務來去對這個民眾的資訊來去做一些確認那我想要問就是民眾必須免於恐懼到底這個民眾參加大型聚會的時候有什麼樣的資訊"},{"start":9040.169,"end":9043.413,"text":"報告委員我們警察在執行群眾活動的時候絕對不會用手機去做定位群眾的這些相關的問題絕對沒有"},{"start":9055.589,"end":9070.941,"text":"那請問他當時說他可以去針對手機的這個性命服務去查年齡層跟群眾組成的這個我就不清楚那警察的這個部分在處理群眾我們我要跟署長報告說他甚至能夠"},{"start":9072.382,"end":9100.858,"text":"來分析出來說這些的群眾跟當時小草一月多民眾黨在選舉的時候的小草的民眾的人是不同的那我請教一下這個來請說我們絕對不會去做這種那我請教一下署長跟部長到底什麼樣的單位或什麼樣的人有辦法去取得這樣的細部的資料我相信這是全民要去了解的比如我今天去參加一個大型的活動結果我的我的姓名"},{"start":9101.578,"end":9103.359,"text":"那我請教一下那什麼單位可以去取得這樣的資料?"},{"start":9129.465,"end":9146.633,"text":"部長知道嗎?因為的確他在新聞的以上解說他說我相信不要不需要我原因重現啦就是說他說這個他說原來這些人跟原來的小草沒有去比對過他跟原來這些517在民進黨樓下那些草草去跟他比起來也不同人啊"},{"start":9148.918,"end":9162.917,"text":"報告張委員我們在處理這個群眾活動的時候呢我們都是注重這個警政如何維持現場的次序至於說有沒有後續後端有人處理這些所謂的電訊資料取得他們這些我們真的是不清楚"},{"start":9163.678,"end":9177.824,"text":"我真的是不清楚謝謝部長當然我相信這個王先生他講的是事實所以我是不是可以拜託這個我們行政部門的時候針對民眾未來去參加大型活動他的資訊是不是有外洩他跟一些民間團體"},{"start":9179.085,"end":9197.487,"text":"在聯絡的時候是不是有取得一些機密的資料他才可以這樣子來去做一些分析那我相信憑證單位這邊是不是要針對這些的內容來去做一個查核我覺得這樣子才可以讓民眾未來去參加一些大型活動的時候可以免於恐懼不然我什麼時候去參加活動的時候"},{"start":9198.368,"end":9223.421,"text":"但我相信這個網路上還在說就好像在老大哥在監視你一樣人民沒有隱私權我認為這樣是非常不正確的一個行為好不好拜託部長這邊還有署長這邊要讓人民免於恐懼今天部長這邊好像沒辦法回應我任何的問題所以我相信說現在資訊非常的發達人民的個資不應該被外露所以這拜託部長不能就跟我默默無言以對"},{"start":9224.562,"end":9244.355,"text":"那接下來我相信今天大家都非常注意的就是這個新竹消防員的事情那我相信很多有關於這個警消的權益的問題我們都非常的重視那這邊我是不是可以拜託就我本身的了解我們這個在警消人員的時候我擔心的一個點就是說我們的預算原額的部分能不能去做增加"},{"start":9245.335,"end":9269.327,"text":"顧名思義就是說假設今天這個警消的人員預算原額假設要200個人是應聘的人到底是多少比如說應聘是190個人那在遇到這些可能當時很多的這些警消人員可能因為個人因素家庭因素健康因素而離職者可能到最後只有180個人所以顧名思義很多我們警政單位現在第一線的服務人員人數是缺乏的"},{"start":9269.787,"end":9284.413,"text":"那我們希望的是說當然我這邊我們立法院是沒有辦法要求行政單位去增加預算可是我拜託這個警消單位的人是不是在預算原額的部分可以做增加簡單來講就是說讓我們的預算原額的人數可以做增加"},{"start":9284.813,"end":9287.615,"text":"委員會跟地方政府共同來討論這個部分但是重要的是預算原額是有的怎麼樣補足像剛剛我們有提到"},{"start":9306.488,"end":9319.795,"text":"消防員呢他們要有禁用的這個資格的話要經過考試院的這個考試那上次考試院的考試呢錄取率非常的低那現在怎麼樣把錄取率提高因為我們是合格的消防員才可以上這個消防的這個這個人員的這個補足"},{"start":9322.296,"end":9338.152,"text":"這一點我們一定來加強尤其像新竹這個事情發生之後我們有顯現出這樣子的弱點那這個弱點的話呢我們也跟考試院已經做比較好的協調在下一次這個有關於這個消防員的考試的時候盡量以提高錄取率的方式來補足緣而不足的地方"},{"start":9338.692,"end":9367.336,"text":"對,所以部長我這邊拜託主席再一下下所以這邊拜託部長所以我這邊這是強烈的要求就是說部長跟兩位署長這邊一定要提供本席就是過去以來可能這三年你們的這個預算緣額跟實際應聘的緣額跟實際應聘的緣額過了一年兩年了以後是不是整體消防員警察人數有下降所以我這邊還是要提出我如果預算緣額增加其實它就是有個備用人力訓練人力的一個單位它是可以補足說如果其中"},{"start":9367.936,"end":9379.272,"text":"有部分的這個單位是人數不足的時候他可以補充過去我覺得這才可以部分的去改善所有我們警消人員他在執行上的危險所以還有沒有什麼要補充的嗎"},{"start":9381.249,"end":9407.907,"text":"現在有沒有這樣的情形我想這個原額這個部分呢也是配合地方縣市政府的預算來做一個衡量整體的一個考量那我們會再做這個通盤的這個檢討好是不是有沒有時間大概多少多久可以把這個書面報告給給本席書面報告那是不是過去三年過去三年了對大概一個月可以嗎好可以可以好謝謝署長謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":9410.135,"end":9412.997,"text":"感謝主席 主席我請我們的部長有請牛部長部長好丁委員好"},{"start":9432.503,"end":9436.044,"text":"在這兩天,我們先看到高棧樓的火災﹖順便兩位英勇的消防人員﹖在這,過去我們的林立昌部長﹖他的領帶我一直提醒我們消防人員的權益﹖跟我們的安全"},{"start":9451.849,"end":9452.69,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9480.492,"end":9482.973,"text":"應用到時尚,釋棄到風險感,做要驚慌出來,或是氣氛耗盡,負面來殉職,遺憾的事情,讓人非常關心。我們想另外釋棄,是不是要及時來更新。"},{"start":9499.582,"end":9522.158,"text":"市長感謝議員的關心,我也覺得非常不捨和遺憾,那未來我們在做怎麼樣的檢討跟改進的話,其實很多委員都有垂詢到,包括說能不能提供更好的科技救災的方式,在我們確定火場裡面並沒有要救助的人的時候,那我們的消防員不要急著衝進去裡面。"},{"start":9522.858,"end":9523.999,"text":"這就是我們未來我們要來討論的一個問題我們這個高戰樓的灰災有可能我們看回後面的經驗"},{"start":9543.956,"end":9546.977,"text":"會較早：所以近日我們這個國戰樓的徽章來：來發會：的風險會較正高：我們消防人員：消防人員的：氣評：一屆的納球是維持20分鐘：維持20分鐘：但是面對我們這個國戰樓的徽章：現在這個氣評：20分鐘的時間：的時間是絕對是不夠的：還是可以經過這個更新："},{"start":9571.724,"end":9577.049,"text":"有更高容量的氣瓶來替換：還有無線電的通訊設備：不管是有過獎或不過獎：在高棧樓的火災：在火災中的高溫度：有可能影響到無線電器材的使用：在這個環境上"},{"start":9596.587,"end":9599.69,"text":"我們要跟指揮中心進行溝通,讓他們有可能申請到、付到、來責任,這是通訊的問題。 面對,因為恢復或交流去影響,責任事先不清。"},{"start":9616.144,"end":9619.626,"text":"有辦法判斷就方向,或是有辦法我們設計提升的這個可能性,這幾項我們都可以即刻來檢討,我們說可以更好找出問題,更好更新,更快更新我們的社會,對我們消防領域的保護,這是最重要,否則這樣才有同意。"},{"start":9639.441,"end":9642.464,"text":"更多不高層建築物的設備是要靠更多本身的自動灑水設備跟安全管理這個區塊來處理當然這個案例我們會整個來跟國土署共同來檢討看怎麼來強化"},{"start":9665.743,"end":9683.773,"text":"建築由業者來負責這個區塊：在委員部裏面在那邊硬頂多賠一個就是消防局個別裝備的器材補充差不多有19億多的經費那這個部分我部長有交代說要跟地線統領到底地線統領需要補什麼設備這當地多鎮而已 當地統領要看什麼"},{"start":9688.235,"end":9710.835,"text":"真的能夠符合縣市第一線同仁救災的需求我給議員跟委員報告那氣頻要不要容量要不要增加這個會牽涉到我們的訓練跟裝備的複合而且曾經某些國家用過結果重心沒穩點頭不見得是好事所以這個運作的模式我們整個會檢討一下什麼方式對救災人員是有幫助的"},{"start":9712.336,"end":9712.756,"text":"接著放肆來處理該委員會報,謝謝"},{"start":9734.37,"end":9734.531,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":9756.186,"end":9760.408,"text":"提醒國土計劃法以及法律內容每年4月30日開始實施。進行林副長下令進行,但委員會沒有進一步討論。進行經過國管局宣告後,每年可以接行或不可以接行。"},{"start":9782.449,"end":9784.511,"text":"國土計劃法,是不是在明年4月30號的時候可以完成,然後對外全面來公布?"},{"start":9798.562,"end":9798.602,"text":"主席"},{"start":9816.109,"end":9830.318,"text":"但是在你一句共識之前我們必須要了解說每一個人他們所提到他們在乎的是什麼項目不是只有一句譬如說雲林縣政府向縣長也提到說暫緩實施那盧秀燕市長臺中市長也說暫緩實施那這個新北市長告訴我說他們比較疑慮希望能夠多溝通但是疑慮是什麼他沒有告訴我疑慮是什麼所以我想說是不是港委一個縣市政府這分配我們再討論清楚之後需要"},{"start":9845.407,"end":9847.708,"text":"國土計劃法已經講了十幾二十年以上如果沒有推動的話對未來台灣的整體的國土規劃還是會有影響"},{"start":9869.935,"end":9874.278,"text":"是 抱歉 報告主席給我一點時間在這裏補充給你說明一下近期我們附近的區域我們婦人館的農藥農養的農地區域的運輸都總有過半7000多公頃這裏的農藥農養將我們全國運輸的基率差不多有3分之2的土地這個基率全國關係是第二的"},{"start":9898.757,"end":9898.857,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9929.037,"end":9929.778,"text":"感謝委員："},{"start":9954.6,"end":9956.42,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9980.248,"end":10004.99,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請劉部長部長好本席看了您的學經歷我對你很期許因為您做過行政院秘書長做過總統府副秘書長還做過政務委員也做過立委所以我看到我們很多的業務我們都需要是整合性的"},{"start":10005.851,"end":10030.851,"text":"我這個當第二度在進到立法院當立委我發現各部會常常推來推去缺乏這個大家都至少門前選所以我們希望這個劉部長就任之後我們內政部也非常非常多的這個事務希望能夠借用您過去的這樣的一個經驗能夠好好的來推展那首先本席也是要"},{"start":10032.177,"end":10049.052,"text":"請教部長就是今天大家都關心的本席也是新竹選出來的立委我們新竹這個前兩天發生的這個火災那部長可您剛剛我聽了前面兩位立委您的答詢"},{"start":10050.205,"end":10070.927,"text":"您知道真正讓消防員殉職的最確實的原因是什麼如果根據初步的火調資料的話就是說他們可能是因為一氧化碳中毒然後致死我所了解是這樣子那署長有沒有跟您說就在去年12月"},{"start":10072.574,"end":10101.693,"text":"我們新竹也有一位才剛殉職現在才幾月?現在5月去年12月28號我在現場屬長親自來在醫院的那個就是他的急診室屬長親自來看這位殉職的員警我也在現場那其實這兩起不要講其他的其實全國現在會常常聽到消防員這個殉職真正的原因"},{"start":10102.694,"end":10106.46,"text":"部長不是您剛剛講的還有沒有更深入一點的"},{"start":10111.425,"end":10139.039,"text":"首長沒有說嗎?上一次12月才發生,現在5月又發生感激委員,事實上每一次意外事件,我們都有個災調會進行詳細原因的調查我聽到你講到這,可以先暫停了剛剛我也聽到部長講,非常的不捨,我們大家都很不捨真正的原因,最大的原因,剛剛也很多委員提到我們消防人員啊,員額不足"},{"start":10140.273,"end":10158.474,"text":"原額不足我先講兩天前的這個他們其實已經去就一輪出來了正常的他就一輪出來署長你應該知道這兩個人應該要停下來換裝備換另外兩個進去因為沒有另外兩個人人員不足所以他們沒有換裝備就再進去"},{"start":10160.436,"end":10186.83,"text":"這第一個第二個去年12月新竹一樣在新竹發生的這個而且他是分隊長照理分隊長要做指揮但是人員不足他自己進去而且進去我們署長應該知道部長您一定要了解這個是非常緊急全國都都迫切的我們不希望再聽到有這麼多的消防員殉職"},{"start":10187.91,"end":10188.23,"text":"1900位報名"},{"start":10212.087,"end":10237.697,"text":"1900位報名那為什麼沒有辦法有1000位我們考試的規則是一半的錄取然後平均分數要50分以上那300多位是因為他的錄取的平均分數沒達到50分所以才剩下那你們有沒有打算第二波跟委員報告考試的方式我們已經跟考試院檢討"},{"start":10238.877,"end":10238.937,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10255.636,"end":10268.614,"text":"過去8年來本席8年前當立委消防人員也是當然警消都不太足但是不像現在缺乘缺乘這樣我也跟部長說明我舉我們新竹有一個消防分隊"},{"start":10270.29,"end":10297.261,"text":"新竹縣啊8到12年前全新竹縣一席立委就是本席現在有兩席就是因為人口增加在竹北竹北增加的那個區塊就是密集人口區那跟這次發生的距離也非常近新竹縣是交界那裡所以那邊一直沒有消防分隊成立好不容易去年底也成立了一個消防分隊結果人員不足啊"},{"start":10298.342,"end":10322.533,"text":"整個消防分隊只有6個人6個人一個人要留守真正發生事情的時候大家都知道開消防車要有一個救護車要有一個然後這到了現場你還要有人拉水線又要兩個對不對還要進去衝進去救人的那甚至水箱都水箱車沒有人開"},{"start":10323.473,"end":10323.973,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10353.573,"end":10360.626,"text":"而且今年不給 要到明年1月才給明年我們光退休就9個 我們本來就缺了缺了"},{"start":10363.473,"end":10385.529,"text":"缺了40個缺40個結果然後又退休9個49那結果你就給9個結果我的缺額還是一樣所以本席在這裡花了那麼多時間其實我今天好幾個議題但是我覺得人命關天不是每一次發生事情我們就說很惋惜或很不捨"},{"start":10386.63,"end":10400,"text":"大家都是人生父母養你看這些消防的弟兄他們多麼的這樣的為了救火你人員不足配備不足大家都質詢了所以這一塊我想請部長"},{"start":10401.955,"end":10420.932,"text":"的部分一定要加快加緊也不只新竹縣我覺得全國這個是救災救難的我要請部長您可不可以承諾我今天也有提案在我們9月份開議之前你們方案一定要出來因為這個是緊急再緊急的"},{"start":10422.757,"end":10433.483,"text":"徐委員所提的部分我們確定一定要來好好檢討原額不足的地方我想你也提到了一定要專業人力的補足才有用你不能隨便就找人所以你要加快補人嗎補人的措施你不可以"},{"start":10439.266,"end":10457.798,"text":"按照正常程序我們已經跟考試院講了希望考試院可以提高它的錄取率這是一個另外一個就是說我們在替代方案能不能做比較好的編排所謂的替代方案我也跟學員報告昨天 前兩天新竹那個大火的部分我知道到現場去一共有24輛消防車從哪裡調來從新竹縣幫忙調來也就是說未來有沒有可能是區域性的"},{"start":10464.002,"end":10464.342,"text":"消防署有港務總隊"},{"start":10488.674,"end":10503.333,"text":"港務消防大隊那這邊的人力沒有那麼吃緊的話可以分一些出來也是很吃緊 監察院也在做糾正所以跟委員報告兩個部分的增加人力一個是特考班6月份要考"},{"start":10503.954,"end":10505.335,"text":"對對對所以我們希望可以盡快補足原額這個是對全國民眾的一個交代好謝謝"},{"start":10530.213,"end":10530.514,"text":"總共有三案請宣讀"},{"start":10546.905,"end":10562.635,"text":"國土計劃明年5月正式啟動,相關影響效應與紛擾間次顯現。國土分區有序運用的理想與實務,自105年1月6日總統公布《國土計劃法》立法以來,中央主管機關致力於推動事宜,但對於各界各縣市政府,乃至相關人民意見與訴求,鮮少梳理為條。"},{"start":10565.577,"end":10575.52,"text":"職資正式執行前相關意見資訊與未來執行方案中央主管機關軍運系統性與地方政府相關學界公民團體在與溝通聽取意見因應開闢民眾反應意見平台必使未來國土計劃執行減少衝擊與民怨原期內政部與辦年內分區舉行會議"},{"start":10582.182,"end":10596.62,"text":"瞭解各縣市政府學者專家公民團體對國土計畫執行事宜溝通意見．並請於下會期開議前將分區辦理研討．與民眾表達意見機制之規劃方案．山立法院內政委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐新穎等三人"},{"start":10597.661,"end":10616.131,"text":"臨時提案二消防人員以命拼搏救災打火救災人員的充沛不僅攸關消防工作的落實也影響社會安全中央主管機關應與高度重視緣起內政部對消防員而問題在下會即開議前向立法院內政委員會提出檢討改進方案書面報告提案人委員徐欣穎等三人"},{"start":10617.351,"end":10642.771,"text":"臨時提案三＼近年電動車風行也是未來趨勢．但電動車含充電設備火災消防署位與應有的重視．從案件統計救災科技方法逃生注意事項．置停車廠設備安裝使用標準均負確如．原請決議請內政部邀集相關機關構研討上開諸事項應與改進方案．並於下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐信穎等三人宣説完畢"},{"start":10644.192,"end":10669.953,"text":"好我們現在處理臨時提案第一案是照案通過然後呢第三案有一個修正他的文字修正也就是那個消防署把它劃掉然後原請決議請內政部邀請相關機關或構研討上開諸事事項應與改進方案那現在我們來看第二案按照文字修正通過第二案呢目前還正在討論請問一下這個"},{"start":10672.515,"end":10699.305,"text":"相關單位,你們有什麼意見嗎?有,署長跟他溝通一下署長說,我就不太懂他說已經有方案,他要把方案劃掉,那我覺得也沒有差不是就方案就可以啊,檢討改進,他要改成檢討精進方案,可以啊那為什麼不要方案,我還是不太懂"},{"start":10703.275,"end":10720.722,"text":"所以署長的意思是有方案在執行那現在這個方案就是你這原額的方案目前全國都哀叫都不合理所以我要你有真正能夠符合大家的精進的方案"},{"start":10722.162,"end":10736.63,"text":"跟主席跟委員報告請署長來說明一下用這個方案這兩個文字主要是我們已經有一個人力經濟方案正在做已經有一個方案在執行所以縣市的缺額是這兩年"},{"start":10737.791,"end":10737.991,"text":"從哪一年"},{"start":10758.582,"end":10762.705,"text":"主席主席絕對不是這兩年你是說那個數字這兩年出來但是在地方欠缺這個消防人力已經多年了所以這個是他回答的有點問題"},{"start":10788.702,"end":10809.226,"text":"所以不是那個文字嘛對不對應該是在下會期在下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出檢討改進的方案所以你認為方案是有問題已經在做了嘛對不對那還有什麼問題呢"},{"start":10824.232,"end":10840.297,"text":"張委員說改成檢討改進報告就是檢討改進不要方案的書面報告所以他們一直強調不要方案但是你現在的方案就緩不及急而且應該要再改進吧"},{"start":10845.578,"end":10849.78,"text":"那今年一整年全國這麼緊急怎麼辦?你要有這個方案好不好?那我至少要有這個方案,你還是得想辦法"},{"start":10867.949,"end":10887.202,"text":"這個部分就是包括逸霄包括各方面志工甚至我們現在替代役的調整這些我們也同步在執行就現有的狀況問題就出在逸霄逸霄他是義務的嘛他白天在上班現在他在上班根本來不及啊好謝謝我建議一下好不好其實"},{"start":10892.486,"end":10898.392,"text":"署長他可能認為方案是一個一整套一大套的啦齁那我們如果把它改成檢討改進計畫書面報告"},{"start":10902.458,"end":10925.76,"text":"阿這樣子你還是一樣你就拿來我覺得這樣子沒有反正報告我一定會來報告他不能用方案的意思我就不太懂因為我們已經有一個方案在那裡執行所以你的意思說你已經有現有的方案那我請你給檢討的你就寫不出檢討的方案因為你就要只用原來的你不能再加強我一定會把我們剛才所報告的措施"},{"start":10926.621,"end":10927.241,"text":"改進計畫書面報告檢討改進計畫"},{"start":10946.334,"end":10953.295,"text":"應期內政部對於消防員額問題在下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出檢討改進計劃的書面報告我們就中午不休息我們繼續開會我們現在再繼續請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":11005.829,"end":11007.309,"text":"請議事人員協助一下好嗎有"},{"start":11030.218,"end":11032.779,"text":"好 主席部長好好 也請部長這個 我們先談這個"},{"start":11043.632,"end":11069.34,"text":"零四零三避震的這個重建方案這個我也諮詢過這個內政部前任的部長我們看這個最左邊受災戶住宅貸款利息補貼這個重建貸款或是重構貸款的利息補貼最高貸款額度350萬元"},{"start":11071.694,"end":11097.351,"text":"這個修繕貸款利息補貼最高貸款額度150萬元這個數字如果我們去跟九二一九二一很久了民國25年前九二一九二一的時候就是350萬過五級住宅重建貸款每戶最高350萬元利息補貼"},{"start":11101.417,"end":11121.044,"text":"以前不叫利息補貼就是說他的利息就透過銀行去協助降低他的利息150萬元以下免利息所以這個部分25年前當初不是內政部主管"},{"start":11122.669,"end":11122.769,"text":"主席"},{"start":11136.175,"end":11136.195,"text":"協調銀行"},{"start":11158.416,"end":11186.751,"text":"是要去真的要再提高提高這已經差距那麼久了我們看到災害防救法是後來修的災害防防救法中央災害防救委員會因協調金融機構所以你不是用你的住宅基金你要去協調金融機構重建修繕的資金給低利貸款"},{"start":11187.694,"end":11187.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":11205.134,"end":11232.054,"text":"因為之前不是你而是後來這樣的一個業務所以這個部分我們要去檢討要增加真的要增加物價指數各方面房價都不一樣了25年來真的不一樣了可以嗎可以檢討嗎去協調嗎跟委員報告啦其實我們大概可能我們一般的啦如果今天沒有地震的話我們一般就算你最好的這個"},{"start":11233.429,"end":11261.518,"text":"這個利息補貼大概本來上限都是250萬的確是因為這次政財我們才去跟金管會再討論他才同意拉到350萬是這個數字部長 整個要去協調常理來看25年前到現在都沒有增加實在是真的是各方面說不過去這個部分去協調好不好我們會再跟那個政財委員 政財經營會再討論"},{"start":11263.697,"end":11291.699,"text":"好 所以我的具體的建議我的具體的建議我也有寫一封信給那個新商任的院長卓榮泰院長上次去花蓮的時候我也寫了一封信給他我的具體的建議就是一千萬提高到一千萬利息就不要降低他的利率然後450萬以下免利息這個部分具體的建議"},{"start":11292.546,"end":11321.656,"text":"希望往這個方向去努力最重要的就是說這個今天那個也請是消防署嗎這個災害防救法天然災害無論是地震或者是風災或者是水災不能因為震災風災的這個那個大小但是對一個個人個體負來一個家負而言"},{"start":11323.442,"end":11323.582,"text":"主席"},{"start":11340.066,"end":11359.4,"text":"他都是一個不應該去大小去區分而是以各副各家副他所受的災害是一樣的應該要一樣的所以在那個消防署你們再去檢視一下去檢視一下整個莫拉克颱風還有921重建條例這些這些暫停條例這些條例"},{"start":11364.232,"end":11381.168,"text":"有沒有全部把它放在災害防救法裡面還沒有納入的修正納入這樣的話才可以一體適用而不要說每一次都還要要不要訂一個特別條例又在那邊爭執以莫拉科颱風來講一個月"},{"start":11383.971,"end":11402.527,"text":"莫納克的特別條例一個月就送到立法院完成三讀通過從風災到三讀通過只有一個月所以這個部分我們現在既然已經把大部分的條文有放在災害防救法我們再檢視一下可以嗎"},{"start":11405.11,"end":11429.18,"text":"跟委員報告每次重大事故完以後我們會整個在做制度上的檢討包括法律面檢討我知道我們上一屆我們在上一屆有做了很大的一個修正在檢視我們再來依照委員指示來再做一個確鑑基本上都已經拉進來因為議題其實還很多時間的關係希望下次還有很快的就能再質詢部長因為還沒有讓你講話"},{"start":11434.666,"end":11434.846,"text":"主席"},{"start":11457.046,"end":11478.315,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11488.592,"end":11507.681,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11525.519,"end":11536.702,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11546.715,"end":11547.135,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11678.981,"end":11683.863,"text":"現在繼續開會我們現在繼續開會接下來有請洪孟凱委員質詢第一次我阿伯才沒中沒中就已經起來了來 謝謝劉部長"},{"start":11702.247,"end":11723.3,"text":"部長好部長也算是我們立院的前輩不過今天本席真的以嚴肅的心情一定要救教因為我知道過去您在擔任委員的時候特別關心消防員的權益2019年消防法相關的修法退讓權也是您這邊有大力促成本席先予以肯定但是記不記得"},{"start":11724.341,"end":11739.906,"text":"您在之前質詢內政部長徐國勇的時候,當時就有提到消防員人力不足、短缺的問題。到目前為止,現在您上任了,現在的消防員還缺多少?一千三百多位部長,我們什麼時候能夠補齊?"},{"start":11748.494,"end":11776.901,"text":"我們剛剛署長在面對委員質詢的時候有特別提到從明年跟後年開始我們希望每一年補足的人數是1000人左右希望在明後年可以補足但是這中間我們還是有很多努力的方案就像我剛剛跟委員報告的部分就是說我們希望考試院能夠協助我們讓我們的消防員的考試能夠錄取率提高那這樣子我們在徵集比較多願意參加這個消防大家團隊的時候會比較快速一點"},{"start":11777.827,"end":11785.8,"text":"但是部長有沒有去了解你說好明年後年所以有把握明年後年兩年時間可以把一千三百多位的人額補齊"},{"start":11788.217,"end":11808.752,"text":"目前考試正在考試6月份會考那考完以後10月份會二次停測驗明年1月份會入訓那後年1月份會節約分發後年才分發對一年我們訓練時間是一年所以現在做的事情真的能夠補到"},{"start":11810.458,"end":11839.29,"text":"然後這兩年還有有一些消防員代退退休離開所以真的要補齊什麼時候能夠補齊我這樣直接問部長你任內有沒有信心能夠把消防員的員額補齊因為這在2019年你當時質詢內政部長徐國勇的時候徐國勇其實也是跟你講一樣的話他跟你講說委員我們現在在訓練委員我們每年固定多少人但時空背景一過去之後缺額還是在啊"},{"start":11840.486,"end":11840.926,"text":"為什麼消防員會有缺額 有可能其中一個原因"},{"start":11867.737,"end":11888.464,"text":"就確實過去到現在不管是火神的眼淚也好或說消防員他們的一個權益也好我就比較直接請教2023年的時候當時因為大火發生消防員也有想要組工會的一個聲音當時您時任幹事長您講到的是說態度保留"},{"start":11889.44,"end":11899.572,"text":"所以也被外界質疑是說這就是執政黨的態度那您現在擔任部長是不是您部長任內一天消防員要組工會這樣的事情是不可能的"},{"start":11900.752,"end":11924.058,"text":"我想這樣講 太武斷了 第一個目前所以你願意考慮 願意您給我30秒鐘 第一個我們請我們的次長先跟這些消防員促進權力工會的這些消防員或者是有消防員身份或是一些其他的教授學者們先溝通 就是我們所在乎的消防員組工會"},{"start":11924.958,"end":11945.398,"text":"最後的這個真正的目標第一個當然是保障消防員自己本身的權益那這個權益第一個保障在安全上面的維護能不能做到那事實上從這幾次的火災看出來在安全維護上面的我們做的不夠好不夠精準那我們會來努力改進同時我剛剛也跟我們的消防署長講我們可能要朝著科技化"},{"start":11948.101,"end":11970.66,"text":"還有我們未來在做火災調查的時候不要只有調查火災發生的原因還要調查消防員進去出來或是所有在執行的層次當中有沒有哪一些是現行的科技或是現行的這個制度上面我們可以補足的部分因為我們必須要跟這些關心消防員權益跟關心消防員的朋友們能夠對話的話一定要端出我們自己想要做什麼"},{"start":11976.445,"end":11993.031,"text":"如果最後只是一個消防員組工會,他產生的另外一個結果就是參加工會的人未來可能是有規避權、避讓權或者是其他的罷工權等等這些那你這些是不是讓那一些沒有參與的人,他反而在救災上面更吃緊"},{"start":11994.091,"end":11995.292,"text":"昨天您去新竹的這兩位永霄的靈堂前面上香致意嗎?是"},{"start":12021.833,"end":12049.609,"text":"這一次這兩位永銷一位年之19年一位年之14年這樣的狀況就如同2019年我們雖然有修正所謂的退讓權但是消防員在第一線遇到火災的時候他們其實根本沒有退避空間嘛那你也提到是說要加強科技的部分那就變成是說當消防員進入到火災現場的時候其實他們不知道他們面臨到什麼樣的一個狀況"},{"start":12051.089,"end":12078.383,"text":"我個人認為其實這兩位永孝也許他們不應該在這一次他們也許可以避免不要上升火海那是不是就代表說我們真的做的不夠那再者更科技的方法我們已經講過多久了沒有辦法有一個確實各縣市都有辦法的一個都有辦法來去做能夠掌握火場的一個狀況還有最終"},{"start":12082.162,"end":12103.055,"text":"如果現在工會他沒有辦法一步到位但至少我們消防法的職安專章現在已經要訂立了因為我前兩天質詢勞動部部長的時候勞動部何部長跟我們講是說內政部現在在做研擬那我們要說是不是能夠把消防員納入職安法"},{"start":12103.922,"end":12120.32,"text":"因為過去來講最重要的是職安法才能夠面臨到不管是我們的這些人員的訓練我們這些人員的工作權益我們這些人員的相關的一個職業運作的一個狀況才能夠獲得保障"},{"start":12121.301,"end":12138.229,"text":"可是如果說你沒有納入治安法的話我們消防法的主管機關是誰是中央是我們消防署地方是消防局那我們相關的僱主也是消防署跟消防局那就會有球員監裁判的狀況所以我現在比較想直接請教什麼時候我們的"},{"start":12146.997,"end":12148.698,"text":"消防法執案專章可以出來"},{"start":12170.885,"end":12181.882,"text":"部長我只想請教現在在這次新竹大火裡面有一個狀況就是現在的豪宅越蓋越多有很多縣市的雲梯車其實是不足的"},{"start":12182.546,"end":12210.849,"text":"所以我們才會看到這次的新竹社大火到最後居然是要拜託民間企業用吊車來去協助把高樓層的民眾給疏散我覺得這未來可能面臨到這個就是設備的部分有沒有盤點過以相關現在新興的這些區域它的豪宅越蓋越高20幾樓30幾樓的住宅比比皆是那這雲梯車的部分還有哪些縣市有缺"},{"start":12212.009,"end":12223.924,"text":"報告委員：除了現有的現施的雲梯車以外：未來幾年：這個計劃都已經合訂：會整個補充到39部的雲梯車：包括新竹市：會有50公尺一部"},{"start":12225.836,"end":12231.459,"text":"本席也特別要強調是說在很多新興的區域也都需要有這樣子一個高樓層雲梯車來確保相關人員的安全我們這些東西都是有備無患"},{"start":12253.572,"end":12265.435,"text":"謝謝委員：同時建築本身的設備我們會同步跟國土署這邊來共同的努力那設備的部分一定要跟地方政府共同來努力 謝謝好 謝謝我們洪文凱委員的質詢 謝謝部長還有署長我們接下來有請盧志強委員質詢"},{"start":12284.218,"end":12306.429,"text":"主席有請部長部長房價高漲年輕人買不起房子這已經是清世代最沉重的痛了那我想請教您知道房貸負擔率房價所得比住宅價格指數租金指數在過去這20年裡面哪一年最高"},{"start":12308.735,"end":12319.105,"text":"請委員多指教我告訴你 我把數字告訴你房貸的負擔率在2016年的我是講等於是馬政府的時候的Q2是37.14%到去年底Q4就是42.66%"},{"start":12329.716,"end":12337.8,"text":"房價所得比一樣是從我剛前面的2016的Q2的8.97倍到2023年的Q4是9.97倍大漲住宅價格指數更漲更多2016年的Q2是100.762023年Q4是136.20"},{"start":12350.277,"end":12371.629,"text":"租金指數從2016年的5月是99.55到2024年的4月是105.81所以我跟部長說這四項指標最高都是現在我不知道部長你能不能深刻感受到像房貸負擔率房價所得比住宅價格指數"},{"start":12373.25,"end":12394.098,"text":"租金指數 換言之不管你是要買房租房現在房價都處於歷史巔峰的高那部長你有感受到年輕人的負擔跟痛苦嗎有的我想在很多公司的場合裡面都有聽到這樣的聲音那也是內政部在處理社宅裡面急需要被趕快完成了一個部分"},{"start":12396.418,"end":12415.032,"text":"蔡英文總統曾經答應要蓋20萬戶的社會住宅,8年20萬戶,但是如果是算新建的,不算所謂的包租代管或其他的部分是多少戶?"},{"start":12415.851,"end":12441.625,"text":"到目前為止 到年底 我說他承諾是多少戶百分之八年承諾多少 十二萬戶那我也要確認一下 因為賴清德總統他也曾經說過新建包租代管跟租金補貼合計覆蓋要一百萬戶嘛 對不對這是賴清德總統的政見嘛 對不對那我想請教 就是不算包租代管跟租金補貼他實際他要新建多少戶"},{"start":12442.999,"end":12466.786,"text":"如果不算蔡英文總統的部分的話賴清德總統的8年的部分是13萬戶所以換言之12加13就說25萬那我就要想請教一下那您知道嗎事實上蔡英文總統以12萬戶來說她就是要把她算成完成承諾的話要加上新建中的4萬戶對不對"},{"start":12469.119,"end":12471.321,"text":"所以換言之蔡英文總統所謂的12萬戶有9萬戶其實是要靠誰來完成要誰在任內完工"},{"start":12497.493,"end":12503.182,"text":"其實他都已經在興建在誰任內才有辦法完工嘛對就是在賴總統的任內"},{"start":12505.737,"end":12527.995,"text":"所以實質上12萬戶3萬戶蓋好了那9萬戶還要賴總統來努力可是賴總統另外又加了13萬戶嘛那我想請問八年任內真的可以嗎蓋完還是說今天一樣跟賴蔡英文總統一樣蓋好是四分之一剩下四分之三可能要留待下一任總統"},{"start":12529.198,"end":12550.519,"text":"其實也跟委員報告啦 其實我們的目標就是每年大概要蓋2萬5到3萬戶我要講的是說把它蓋好了 因為事實上為什麼這樣問因為真正你能夠提供給所謂的住人給弱勢經濟者要抑制房價 那蓋完以後才發揮這個功能嘛 對不對"},{"start":12551.44,"end":12568.757,"text":"所以我們要看到我剛剛前面為什麼講那四個指標數就是人民的痛苦是即刻感受到的所以我想要請教一下部長就是說這13萬戶加上蔡英文總統這個已經開動了可能還沒完成的那9萬戶加上多少戶13加922"},{"start":12572.642,"end":12587.153,"text":"二十二萬戶有辦法在八年任期內就是完工不是讓下一任繼續施工還是說今天有多少戶是有把握在這八年任期內完工然後多少是不是要留四分之三給下一任總統部長"},{"start":12591.353,"end":12612.44,"text":"羅委員的垂詢我覺得非常講到重點我們盡量來完成但是你所提到的部分在賴總統的任內我們要想辦法來解決關鍵的所在什麼叫關鍵的所在土地如何取得我大概知道因為真的不容易這個我知道可是一旦目標喊出來因為總統誠信為重"},{"start":12614.261,"end":12615.783,"text":"提供給委員更清楚告訴大家你的完工目標是多少"},{"start":12633.883,"end":12657.267,"text":"那你蔡英文總統剩下的9萬戶那這8年內的完工目標是多少以及賴清德總統plus那13萬戶完工目標是多少但我還沒有質詢到你另外一部分因為蔡英文本來說的是20萬戶他後來要把包租貸款還有其他加進去嘛可是賴清德總統其實更宏偉喔賴清德總統是加包租貸款點點點是20萬戶嘛對不對那賴清德是多少戶是100萬戶欸"},{"start":12662.864,"end":12665.325,"text":"謝謝我們羅志強委員 謝謝部長 謝謝署長我們接下來有請我們的邱志偉委員邱志偉 對啊我講錯了 謝謝"},{"start":12696.793,"end":12723.994,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長休息一下國土署 五星醫學部署長消防署 消防署長 移民署 中署長警政署 張署長 民政司 政司長各位官員部長累了 辛苦了 休息一下第一個 消防署我們這個兩位弟兄罹難 殉職"},{"start":12725.871,"end":12733.676,"text":"那能不能把那個殘壓警報器在供應量能夠減少?比如說目前的標準是25對不對?5050就開始警報了嗎?50%50%的時候 剩下就是跟會員報告 空氣瓶一般是250或灌到300%那我們目前有兩種不是 我說你的殘值剩下多少的時候它會發出警報?"},{"start":12750.996,"end":12761.022,"text":"殘職就是255分之1國際標準是25甚至有人說要把殘職再提高到3分之1到30%左右讓他有更多時間可以因應你這個消防署去研究好不好你現在是20他可能警報時間太短"},{"start":12775.931,"end":12776.292,"text":"警政事務部長"},{"start":12790.66,"end":12813.284,"text":"委員長 你的上任就是打詐 對不對 打詐就是從預防面 對不對 讓案件減少 讓受害者減少 就是預防面打擊面你要嚴打 提高破案率 你的設定目標值 件數要減少多少 減少多少比率 然後破案率 嚴打的比率要提升多少"},{"start":12813.837,"end":12841.428,"text":"那我想現在目前還是屬於炸機的高耗發的這個階段那我們會做逐項的一個聚焦的一個打擊你要一個月之內讓民眾有感一個月也可能太多三個月之內你要讓民眾有感減速減少破案率提升各位跟委員報告那我們希望就是說現在送到我們運方的打炸的事法的這個源頭讓這些投放量"},{"start":12842.728,"end":12845.089,"text":"打擊面的部分對於這些車手﹑車手頭的提款﹑領款﹑或者幕後的機款每一個環節都能夠徹底的一網打盡"},{"start":12867.361,"end":12868.822,"text":"中藥團體不動產登記問題這個部分是不是時間已經到了"},{"start":12896.012,"end":12915.477,"text":"到6月11號那有很多還沒有登記你會不會再延長報告委員這是宗教師的業務宗教師啊來委員好我自己基本上我們認為對宗教的服務這個部分我們還是要持續所以這個延長我們對這個部分我們也支持"},{"start":12916.112,"end":12916.392,"text":"國土署"},{"start":12944.882,"end":12971.606,"text":"吳市長這個一之一號道路一之四號道路決定念井署對不對我們這個努力推動十幾年現在這平定是地方級私地那平定的作業包括國土署跟國家公園管理署這個兩個業務共同去處理目前你我期待你這平定作業盡快完成就我了解目前是平定為地方級私地對不對那這個平定的程序什麼時候會完成"},{"start":12972.632,"end":12974.915,"text":"這資料送來我們會馬上來做處理資料早就送了"},{"start":12981.642,"end":12981.762,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13008.612,"end":13018.944,"text":"高雄的危老重建目前是速度比較稍微慢一點這個部分我們高雄屋齡30年以上超過5成危老到558萬戶重建案比較少"},{"start":13023.586,"end":13052.388,"text":"這個能不能去協助市政府你要如何去協助應該是這樣說啦其實可能也會從市府這邊下手就是說其實像台南市連透天都很努力加入因為他們不知道透天還有稅捐的方面的減免這個我們會來跟市府來因為我要遵守這個發言的機率這個時間到我就應該不要佔主席台因為後面還有人要發言我要梳理這個楷模"},{"start":13054.315,"end":13056.116,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":13091.517,"end":13113.695,"text":"麻煩有請部長劉委員好劉委員歡迎你用部長的身份回來立法院謝謝之前16年到20年也曾經同事過那我相信消防員最近所發生的事情大家都很難過那過去這10年已經有35位消防弟兄命傷火傷是"},{"start":13117.264,"end":13131.498,"text":"看到這樣的悲劇我相信包括部長全體的國人都很不忍今天消防員他們今天開了一個記者會希望可以適用治安法"},{"start":13132.523,"end":13148.716,"text":"但不過師傅消防署一直以來的政策立場都是希望只放在消防法裡那面對今天消防的弟兄他們希望全面納入職安法這樣的訴求那部長您的政策立場如何?"},{"start":13149.542,"end":13150.663,"text":"這個政策立場還是繼續延續嗎"},{"start":13174.574,"end":13188.936,"text":"原來就的部分因為本來行政就是一個延續的作業現在問題就出現了就是說現在基層消防員他們希望的跟原來的政策立場有嚴重的衝突嗎"},{"start":13190.165,"end":13205.499,"text":"我現在還沒有說誰對誰錯那您作為新的部長如果要延續新的政策立場的話舊的政策立場的話你有沒有想過你要怎麼樣跟這些基層的消防員溝通讓他們理解而且可以接受"},{"start":13206.027,"end":13209.65,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢我剛所提到的這是基本的立場也就是說不管說消防員工會要不要組成他們的一些想法我們會先來聽聽說他們想法所要達到的目標是什麼如果這個目標用現在的消防法制定這個職安專章無法達到"},{"start":13226.122,"end":13245.212,"text":"第二階段我們可以做什麼事所以我先建議就是說我們的次長有跟這些消防員工會的弟兄們先溝通他們需要我們幫忙的在哪裡什麼時候溝通的前兩天那他們的結論是什麼是接受你們把他放在消防法裡面放專章嗎"},{"start":13246.717,"end":13275.49,"text":"我們所謂的溝通就是先表達我們現在可以做到的還有他們要求的部分溝通不會只有一次溝通不會只有一次但是沒有關係啦部長我覺得你剛上任這是一個很重大的課題因為其實吵滿久的從去年的時候他們表達他們心聲的時候其實你如果看整個歷程一開始他們還沒有踩這麼硬但是他們後面踩得越來越硬"},{"start":13276.772,"end":13282.539,"text":"我要幫他們說一句話因為他們一次又一次的被騙一次又一次的失望"},{"start":13283.894,"end":13311.332,"text":"因為我一直長期在追蹤他們的訴求那也希望幫我們這些打火英雄能夠比較好的環境比較好的法規去確保這些悲劇不會再發生所以我說我長期觀察他們立場為什麼踩得越來越硬到今天已經變成要全面適用自然法這個是部長你接下來要面對重要的課題我今天只是把它點出來但我希望做到一件事多傾聽他們的聲音多傾聽他們的聲音因為"},{"start":13314.054,"end":13334.986,"text":"如果到最後無論如何他們還是希望適用職安法你們還是希望交防法設專章而兩個規範架構比起來保護的程度有差異的話那接下來會很辛苦所謂會很辛苦我指的是部長你會很辛苦因為接下來就可以預期兩邊要對撞了"},{"start":13336.497,"end":13351.418,"text":"部長我希望你可以聽得懂我今天在這邊質詢這個問題的時候委員所講的部分齁我能夠接受的部分就是第一個我希望消防法裡面的職安專章跟消防員這些主公會想要主公會的弟兄們所指導的齁"},{"start":13352.199,"end":13379.342,"text":"就是要未來執安法裡面 裡面有關於職業安全衛生甚至是專業研究發展的部分是沒有衝突的那因為如果沒有衝突的狀況之下法條所歸列的部分你放在哪個法律可能委員是法律專家都會知道他是一等適用所以這一方面就表示說我們要有共識可以繼續往前走那我剛剛有跟委員報告說我們只有因為我們才上任8天"},{"start":13380.143,"end":13380.243,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13401.627,"end":13401.747,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13421.028,"end":13449.178,"text":"這我都同意啦齁時間的關係我知道部長剛上任你需要一些時間去溝通最後確定你的政策立場我今天其實是很善意的提出來提醒因為我希望你們到時候消防法能夠專章如果你們還是採取這個政策立場的話能夠說服這些打火英雄給他們保障是足夠的那要不然的話我們一定跟這些消防弟兄站在一起推動把他們納入治安法"},{"start":13449.818,"end":13465.486,"text":"那最後一分鐘的時間我請一下署長消防署署長署長我只跟你提醒一件事你上個禮拜我知道你去南部見了一個算是國民黨的前大老縣長"},{"start":13467.609,"end":13486.499,"text":"這個事情我知道但我要跟你說的事情是說你與其帶著地方消防局的局長去拜會那種所謂的大佬想要用透過私下戳的方式去勸阻這些消防弟兄站出來爭取他們的權益去組工會這樣的事情"},{"start":13487.239,"end":13512.771,"text":"我給您的建議啦是多花時間跟這些消防弟兄相處因為我後來得到的訊息是那位大佬直接就給你打槍啊直接給你打槍啊所以我們是支持消防員啊支持他們主公會啊怎麼可能去答應你所提出來這樣的請求人事實地我都有但我想你做了這個事情我"},{"start":13515.47,"end":13515.59,"text":"收到,謝謝委員"},{"start":13544.085,"end":13544.785,"text":"黃國昌委員質詢陳培余委員質詢"},{"start":13567.877,"end":13576.785,"text":"主委好部長午安非常開心看到部長部長一定知道我要來許願這樣關於部長過去非常熟悉的足球運動那部長過去您擔任過高雄足球委員會的主委推動國內女足不遺餘力非常感謝部長然後還帶台灣做運動外交參加相關的會議然後重點是我3月還去參加了一場球賽"},{"start":13591.678,"end":13611.33,"text":"在男子足球場那個球場真的非常棒我講了這麼多就是想要跟部長討論看看關於這種大型足球場台灣可能沒有那麼多場地可以做這樣的事情可是明明都市裡面有非常多對於這樣中小型球場的需求我想部長在您過去的工作經驗應該可以理解這些需求從何而來對嗎"},{"start":13612.631,"end":13612.971,"text":"主席"},{"start":13625.544,"end":13642.591,"text":"在以前我們都是希望說有沒有比較廢棄的公園預定地等等這些提供他們來使用但是現在在可以說土地非常不容易取得的狀況之下我們也會朝著說公園的設施裡面到底可不可以協助這些喜好這個休閒運動的朋友或者團體能夠來推動來使用"},{"start":13646.693,"end":13674.665,"text":"那像高雄市政府在陳其邁的主政之下其實他蠻友善就是說他們如果提出申請然後付一點清潔費或管理費的話甚至學校的操場在非上課期間也可以提供給這些團體來使用可是我想要可以擴散到其他縣市的部分恐怕也必須要中央部會來一起協助所以如果委員所垂詢的部分就是說未來有很多都市計畫的公共設施的用地"},{"start":13675.225,"end":13675.265,"text":"主席"},{"start":13701.28,"end":13719.406,"text":"打球或是踢球然後把樹把它砍掉不太可能一定要有一大片的這樣綠地面積那同時這個綠地面積要比較平坦否則小朋友或是其他的年輕人在裡面運動的話也會受傷所以我們如果有機會的話在陳委員非常關心體育的狀況之下休閒運動設施我們會跟教育部的體育署"},{"start":13724.488,"end":13724.888,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13740.419,"end":13758.004,"text":"部長你真的很熟悉我真的非常謝謝部長我都還沒有問完你就已經知道我想要說什麼所以代表你真的對這個運動設施用地大型的中型的小型的然後都市跟非都市型的困境部長真的完全清楚那我們就直接切入重點部長我幫你找到一個可能性就是您剛剛說的再往下一頁"},{"start":13762.013,"end":13763.334,"text":"公共設施用地多目標"},{"start":13790.352,"end":13791.774,"text":"我們找到在內政部107年有一個令"},{"start":13816.355,"end":13842.348,"text":"內政部令認可錘球場可以作為都市計畫公共設施用地對目標使用辦法第三條副表以獵物選項：內政部在109年一樣：內政部令把射箭場也放進去了：於是射箭場跟錘球場：就有機會放進相關的欄位當中：作為可參考的依據：那如同您剛說的體育署教育部要有角色我們往下看那體育署呢"},{"start":13843.268,"end":13859.802,"text":"提出其實他們已經有相關的所謂五人制八人制共用型球場的參考手冊那我相信如同部長您所熟悉這個業務的程度一定知道只要把體育署相關這個辦法作為內政部相關令頒發的可能性參考其實就有機會"},{"start":13860.503,"end":13860.723,"text":"主席"},{"start":13887.79,"end":13888.03,"text":"張雅琳委員質詢"},{"start":13921.517,"end":13945.209,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長跟署長有請部長跟署長,謝謝委員好部長好,就是剛剛培育委員其實已經把我破題了不過我也想要呼籲一下培育委員李尚往來,雖然他已經走了就是因為我自己的小孩也是從小四歲開始踢足球啦所以對足球這件事情我也是非常關心所以之後如果我們相關討論的話可能我們可以兩個辦公室一起來跟部長做一些"},{"start":13945.629,"end":13946.109,"text":"如果以張委員所提的部分"},{"start":13974.181,"end":13992.498,"text":"特色公園,只要不是那種塑膠或者是看起來像罐頭的油具的話,應該都可以算是特色公園,因為它每個的設計都不相同。好,我想就是說,我們在講特色公園,其實公園是給誰玩的?是給小孩玩的,像這樣子遊戲設施啦,應該這樣講,兒童遊戲場是給兒童玩的。"},{"start":13996.221,"end":14022.656,"text":"那其實呢我們可以看到左邊的是一個比較高大的挑戰的一個攀爬設施右邊呢這個是珍珠奶茶公園在台中那我們也可以非常清楚的看到它的設施是相對的低矮的那大家對於特色公園的想像好像就是我只要做出一些特色我就可以了可是他們忽略了重點還是兒童的身心發展所以呢這幾年其實台灣雖然有非常非常多的特色公園"},{"start":14024.635,"end":14051.545,"text":"向左邊這是在高雄的福山啦右邊是在台中這樣子那雖然現在說全台灣各縣市我們從行政院的資訊平台找到說有670座特色公園分佈在六都總計就557座相對來說是佔了將近八成這麼的多那可是呢這裡面真的都符合兒童身心發展的需要嗎其實從剛剛那張照片我們就可以知道其實不完全是"},{"start":14052.285,"end":14052.665,"text":"王美達卡公園"},{"start":14072.077,"end":14101.099,"text":"希望就是說跟部長來請教一件事情就是說因為我們的特色公園的標準其實是非常各縣市差異非常大我們沒有相關的標準所以等於是各縣市政府我自己去摸索我要怎麼去做所謂的特色什麼的共融那再來就是說我們也沒有相關的指引所以變成說落差品質也差異很大尤其在圍管的部分差異也非常大那再來剛剛可以看到六都集合了八成的特色公園可是事實上六都只集合了七成的小孩"},{"start":14102,"end":14108.535,"text":"等於是說在一些縣市的政府他其實因為受限於可能財政或是他可能找不到資源等等的他的兒童遊戲權就相對被剝奪了"},{"start":14111.69,"end":14133.535,"text":"所以我想要跟部長來請教就是說我們有沒有可能參照公園綠地系統規劃的這個設計參考手冊我們來做一個公園的一個相關的規劃設計參考手冊給我們的縣市更清楚的指引跟方向讓他們可以做出更符合兒童身心發展的特色公園呢"},{"start":14137.611,"end":14152.117,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢我相信委員非常照顧我們台灣的這些兒童尤其他們身心發展那特色公園在我們內政部所主導的就是它的土地硬體的部分"},{"start":14153.617,"end":14173.426,"text":"軟體的部分像您所說的小孩子你要多高好的身材或是用什麼樣方式能夠讓小孩子在一個安全無虞的環境之下能夠有油氣的空間那就變成內政部要跟衛福部共同來討論就像您剛所說的你推出的公園如果太高那看起來是小孩子沒有辦法攀爬得到的"},{"start":14173.626,"end":14173.726,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14192.728,"end":14214.576,"text":"所以訂定一個基準很簡單的基準包括您剛所提到的內政部營建署所提到的這個特色公園這個操作手冊如果未來可以合乎更多我們所謂的這個特色公園然後可以讓我們更多的小朋友或是兒童能夠在裡面更符合他們身心發展的部分的話我們會來配合著改進跟檢討"},{"start":14216.036,"end":14235.564,"text":"內政部國土管理署組織法第2條有講到國土區域及地方都市計劃政策制度的規劃跟推動都市計劃裡面就包含兒童遊戲場所以希望這個部分今天也非常高興部長願意一起來我們來制定相關的手冊其實我要講的是我們不是要告訴他們"},{"start":14236.924,"end":14237.204,"text":"王森山委員質詢"},{"start":14268.272,"end":14269.033,"text":"消防弟兄的安全"},{"start":14285.616,"end":14304.694,"text":"現在包括屏東大火開始其實我們都發現一個問題就是我們的設備可能不夠我們的教育訓練可能也需要加強但是現場的狀況更是消防員最深的痛也就是說當他出門的時候他其實不知道他將面對什麼樣的地方"},{"start":14305.7,"end":14321.86,"text":"那以及我們在臺北市我們希望能夠打通所有的關節也就是在消防員他出門的時候他應該知道這個地方有沒有違建這個地方有沒有危險物品這個地方裡面他的配置甚至圖說長什麼樣部長現在我們做到了嗎"},{"start":14325.954,"end":14346.597,"text":"跟黃委員報告我們確實現在還沒有一步到位也就是說消防弟兄出門他不知道那個工廠裡面有沒有危險物品這個最基本的data可能都沒有那麼完整跟委員報告一下應該是說我們在這個所有的資訊要在那一瞬間報案的時候就要馬上匯集起來"},{"start":14347.358,"end":14347.498,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14372.131,"end":14393.913,"text":"同步的去指揮我即將出發的這條路然後鼓勵旁邊甚至旁邊的通報甚至到民政系統說這旁邊有什麼狀況我覺得這都很需要互相的連結我們會來努力 因為我們做過智慧派遣系統這個其實是有一部分都已經納進去只要打通各單位的關節如果不行的話請書發部幫忙"},{"start":14395.495,"end":14395.635,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14426.378,"end":14453.947,"text":"同意委員剛的說法打通任督二脈讓消防隊員尤其是第一線的他們不至於因為資訊落差而再度喪命我們會跟各縣市地方政府來合作多花點錢把這些系統打通他其實都散落在各單位各個圖都在每個單位但是從來沒有一個地方幫他匯集交給第一線的消防人員這是第一點謝謝部長那我第二個問題一樣就是回到"},{"start":14454.787,"end":14454.887,"text":"主席"},{"start":14473.835,"end":14492.612,"text":"政府用了非常非常多的管道希望能夠達到租屋市場透明化但事實上目前現有的規範只有大概仲介業者還有包租業者可能需要做租屋的實價登錄大部分的一般的房東其實應該沒有人在做實價登錄"},{"start":14494.454,"end":14515.55,"text":"這個問題一直存在這也是所有的租屋客包括現在的年輕人他們去租屋他會碰到兩件事第一個不准簽戶口第二個不准申請租金補貼部長這是我們大家都知道的事我了解這方面的問題剛所提到像包租代管的部分如果我們跟仲介業者可以做很好的溝通的話就比較沒有太大的問題"},{"start":14516.471,"end":14516.591,"text":"主席"},{"start":14547.211,"end":14574.461,"text":"實價登錄可能某個程度要更進一步黃委員我們有同仁會跟您補充報告我們現在的內政部的租金補貼都沒有去做實價登錄對嗎我們自己付了錢我們也不做實價登錄對嗎如果我們自己的部長我們自己的給人家的錢我們都知道他在出租但是我們也不做實價登錄這是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":14576.093,"end":14594.418,"text":"這才是問題啊所以部長你的同仁我不知道跟你講什麼今天要告訴你的就是如果政府對自己的政策都不推行政府對自己在做的租金補貼都不讓他做實價登錄不要告訴我說你們想要消滅租屋黑市第二個部分這個部分很清楚"},{"start":14595.158,"end":14621.012,"text":"將來要消滅所謂的租屋黑市有兩個第一個實價登錄第二個某個程度我們也希望給房東一個空間如果你來報販我現在也收不到你的稅你來主動申報的話我們可以給你一部分的所謂的租稅的減免也許他們才會願意露出來這兩件事情我們都會繼續來追蹤部長你上任之後居住正義的政策好嗎"},{"start":14622.032,"end":14622.472,"text":"蔡奕宇委員"},{"start":14652.666,"end":14667.675,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長部長先恭喜吼那你就任我們內政部那過去跟你有兩屆的在立法院當任同事那"},{"start":14668.53,"end":14692.288,"text":"我想你就任後大概面對最近就是最大的這樣的一個集會遊行就是我們知道這幾天的青鳥行動那依你這樣的一個觀察青鳥的這樣的一個行動那是不是算是一個非常和平而且是訴求明確的而且事實上依你們在整個在旁邊觀察"},{"start":14695.558,"end":14695.678,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14712.518,"end":14712.618,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14743.219,"end":14767.836,"text":"運動上面我覺得非常的值得鼓勵尤其他取名叫做青鳥這個青鳥一開始是說因為青島東路因為說如果我在一些演算法我打青島說我的流量會被調降所以他們就刻意把這個島打成鳥就變成青鳥事實上這個青鳥他在比利時他是一個寓言故事"},{"start":14769.195,"end":14792.907,"text":"這個預言故事代表什麼意思?就是說這些青鳥他代表的就是幸福跟希望那比利時的一個預言說那過去有一對兄妹這個兄妹他就一直覺得說我只要找到青鳥我就可以找到他自己的幸福跟希望所以他們就翻山越嶺爬山涉水千里迢迢去找找不到"},{"start":14793.976,"end":14821.342,"text":"找不到青鳥這對這對兄妹就很失望然後他就回到家裡回到家裡才發現哇青鳥就是自己的家裡啦在家裡然後才發現哇幸福就在身邊可是他自己家裡的身邊的一個家人都老了因為他們去找青鳥花了好多的時間我覺得這個預言就代表著我們看到這對兄妹這個兄應該叫做國民黨"},{"start":14823.071,"end":14823.812,"text":"就是在自己臺灣的年輕人"},{"start":14851.318,"end":14870.485,"text":"所以我們看到年輕人用輕巧行動展現他們對於整個公共政策的形成過程可以展現人民的聲音展現不同的意見這個我們要去珍惜他們我講這個意思是說我看到的這幾天年輕人在網路上運用他們的創作"},{"start":14871.247,"end":14900.046,"text":"感動很多人我覺得然後用這個青鳥的這個預言我們也希望國民黨民眾黨可以像這個兄妹一樣他們要知道真正幸福就是自己的家裡所以就回來台灣 讓台灣更好所以我們內政委員會未來可能會討論很多的法案包括不再計投票是不是涉及到了中國包括討論到中配的年限的問題"},{"start":14901.328,"end":14906.37,"text":"要比照外配,但是這中間要如何避免有國安的疑慮。"},{"start":14918.632,"end":14933.508,"text":"所以部長我跟你講就是說你未來你就會面對很多的挑戰我剛剛只是列舉了兩個我知道因為你身為內政部你要掌管的事情這麼多但是我覺得堅守我們顧好台灣讓我們的年輕人可以幸福發展這才是我們的目標好不好"},{"start":14940.441,"end":14961.534,"text":"好 我想委員講得非常的正確 青鳥行動就像您剛所提到的這個預言的部分那其實我也非常感動的部分就是說 除了台北市的現場以外 其他的外縣市不管是在公共場合裡面 他們所表達出來不管是透過網路的表達 你會發現到他們勇於發出他們的聲音"},{"start":14962.034,"end":14964.076,"text":"親友行動就是說我們一代大家都是勇敢大家可以跟意見說出來而且他們在"},{"start":14982.717,"end":15001.365,"text":"行動的過程展現他們對和平的一個堅持我覺得這個行動很成功我們也希望我們自己立法院你現在在行政機關我們在立法院我們要展現我們如何保護好台灣的這個決心給我們下一代看好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝蔡易委員質詢謝謝部長謝謝繼續我們請徐富奎委員"},{"start":15015.946,"end":15031.125,"text":"謝謝主席：有請劉部長部長午安過去部長走進立法院是用立法委員的身份那今天是恭喜我們是用內政部長的身份來來參加我們今天的業務報告"},{"start":15032.566,"end":15047.343,"text":"那當然昨天立法院通過了這個新的那個知選新司法的一個修正條文我想這個未來部長跟我們很多部會首長一樣要面臨很大的一個挑戰那尤其內政部"},{"start":15049.105,"end":15076.658,"text":"第一大步我們的業務真的非常非常的繁重那也是很多我們的立委關注的一個焦點那在這邊我想依部長過去的歷練我都認為部長可以升任沒有問題在這邊也希望我們內政部的同仁大家多加油那這邊我有幾個問題要就教於部長部長我想這個剛剛很多的立委都提到一個居住的一個正義的一個議題那尤其這個"},{"start":15078.111,"end":15101.153,"text":"去年的選舉的時候今年的選舉的時候我想有很多人都批評說因為民進黨執政時期這個住宅政策的不當造成我們年輕選票的一個流失那但是相對性對於很多的這個建商的來講他們也是怨聲連連因為我們的營建成本的提升我們的土地的一個價值的提升"},{"start":15101.633,"end":15101.653,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":15117.45,"end":15137.527,"text":"謝謝許委員的關心我想政府對於高房價尤其是面對這個年輕族群裡面他們會認為說高房價給他們生活上或是在就業上或就職上的壓力很大那我們一定要面對它來處理那除了延續我們原來蔡總統所說的社會住宅的政策比如說社會住宅有繼續興建"},{"start":15139.368,"end":15143.23,"text":"社宅包租代管租金補貼能夠普及在全台灣的這些弱勢的包括年輕族群或是弱勢戶也必須要接受以外如何來抑制房價"},{"start":15154.116,"end":15154.156,"text":"主席"},{"start":15172.236,"end":15191.075,"text":"就是以新加坡他們的這個房價的方式新加坡呢他們不是只有這個所謂的這個所有權或者是居住權等等他們還有其他的方式可以確定年輕的族群呢利用這樣子的一個組合屋或租屋的政策讓他可以在某一個就業的地區或是他成長的地區能常住久安那這個部分呢我們內部正在做檢討"},{"start":15196.34,"end":15202.824,"text":"就是未來我們推出的社宅政策的部分呢能夠朝著以加惠我們青年世代裡面能夠在他的這個薪水的範圍內合理的付出他的房價房租也好或者是購屋等等這些才是我們要做的重點如果我們沒有推出這樣子的重點的話呢房價只會越炒越高"},{"start":15219.913,"end":15220.113,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15237.182,"end":15238.943,"text":"部長謝謝因為過去在我們攀前縣長的任內那當然我們把很多的公共設施完善之後"},{"start":15261.058,"end":15280.977,"text":"那我們這邊也爭取到我們在屏東市跟潮州有分別設置了兩處的一個社會住宅目前都在興建當中那未來可不可能再包含我們像東港啦恆春這些地區能不能再盤點由我們內政部這邊再協助屏東縣政府來增加我們社會住宅的一個能量"},{"start":15281.377,"end":15304.329,"text":"是先跟徐委員報告目前我手頭上這邊看到了就屏東縣的部分在住住中心要興辦的有臺棠的椰林學院還有光春好市還有瑞屏安居在潮州那您剛所提到這兩個地點的我們來盤點如果有適當的土地有需求的話還有有需求這樣子的必須要的這個住戶的話我們會朝著這方面來處理"},{"start":15304.949,"end":15328.525,"text":"因為我想未來我們目前看到的狀況就是我們整個在產業的發展整個農業很多年輕家人都要做生意但他們現在相對面對就是一個高房價一個壓力所以這部分我們要共同來努力那我想另外一個問題就是針對一個先進的城市污水處理是必須的一個重點但是屏東縣的現在目前污水處理廠的"},{"start":15329.989,"end":15356.256,"text":"普及率還是倒數我們全國第8名那這部分我們內政部怎麼來協助屏東縣政府根文報告其實我們都陸陸續續有在和這個屏東縣市的這個屏東他縣還有鄉鎮的這個無水下水道計畫我想這個部分我們都會找縣府持續的談就看他有意願往哪個方向做我們就接續的就往那個方向去補助我想我們要努力啊因為過去的媒體有報導"},{"start":15357.336,"end":15357.756,"text":"麻煩我們共同的努力"},{"start":15386.099,"end":15387.419,"text":"徐福奎委員 林國成 羅庭惟主席"},{"start":15411.567,"end":15426.266,"text":"部長好 部長也是大學姊聽聞您在您的選區對龍眷非常的照顧對金光教育非常關心所以未來有很多事情想跟你繼續探討也希望我們一起加油那首先我當然要先表達我的立場"},{"start":15427.607,"end":15450.765,"text":"原本要問部長您支持組工會、消防組工會但我想我們自己的立場先讓您知道我個人是全力來積極的來協助我們消防員組工會當然有些委員在詢問這個治安專章何時出來有些人會覺得要把它列入治安法那我想過程中都可以再繼續討論但是我要再提醒"},{"start":15451.485,"end":15472.946,"text":"每一天的討論所消耗的時間都有可能有下一個消防員受難所以我希望時間能夠加快加速這一點可以認同嗎是我們消防法的職安專章會按照原來未還委員會所要求的部分送到大院來審議那剛剛我在回答很多委員的講法的時候也是一樣"},{"start":15473.607,"end":15497.153,"text":"不管是放在職安法或是消防職安專章我們希望裡面所討論能夠符合現在我們消防員所需要的職業安全衛生上面所需要達到的標準我想法律層面當然一體都會適用不管是放在職安專章或者是所謂的職安法但是問題是有沒有切中要點那當然大家都很害怕有很多縣市會說就是所謂的罷工那我們想"},{"start":15497.893,"end":15512.616,"text":"他們在主抽組工會當然真的只是為了罷工嗎?我想有更多層面的是為了自己的職業安全以及相關的設備能力希望能夠透過工會的方式來做爭取"},{"start":15513.297,"end":15535.428,"text":"所以我想不單單居就於所謂的會不會罷工而是我們能不能把他們罷工以外的能夠在他們在職業安全上能夠彌補能夠讓他們更加安心來進入每一場救災救難的任務當中我想這個部分您好像也有回答前幾天也有透過溝通有去彙整一些意見是嗎"},{"start":15535.968,"end":15560.069,"text":"是 我想羅委員的觀察非常的正確就是無論有沒有組工會這件事情無法一步就到位但是呢組工會之前我們必須要先保障消防員基本的安全權益或者他們勞動上面的基本的權益的話我們會跟這些希望組工會的這個基層消防員弟兄們的保持溝通那同時我們也必須要考慮因為每一個縣市政府在主導"},{"start":15560.509,"end":15577.858,"text":"因為那個消防的業務也是縣市地方政府要主導的部分他們的看法也許跟這些基層的消防員還不太相同那我們也必須要顧慮到他們在主導尤其在我們地方製度法裡面他們是主管機關我們也必須要考慮他們的立場所以我剛才說他不是一步到位"},{"start":15579.219,"end":15607.538,"text":"主公會可能最後是最後目標但這過程當中積極並且能夠多方探討然後先行幫他們把這些不管是設備能力或者是職安的SOP更加的訂定更好讓他們更安心的出勤讓我們在這個逐步過程當中能夠達到目標為主相關的軟硬體我們要來努力也請委員多多支持第二個我想跟你探討的是這個所謂的緊勤加擠繁重加擠您有掌握目前的繁重加擠的部分嗎"},{"start":15608.458,"end":15609.839,"text":"臺東市警民比一參考基準應該是1比350"},{"start":15631.952,"end":15649.281,"text":"截至今年4月警民比是1比453台中市對比去年的5月是1比444不減反增所以我簡單的要求可以幫我們補足台中的員警能力嗎"},{"start":15650.59,"end":15671.989,"text":"我們會做滾動式的檢討這個回答我想我們都聽多了但是我要跟大家特別報告如果台北市的目前警民比部長是1比342有繁重加擠那為什麼現在1比453的台中沒有繁重加擠第二"},{"start":15672.91,"end":15686.806,"text":"不要忘記這背後的數字代表的是什麼我們的員額比較少我們的市民比較多那為什麼我們不能夠所謂的繁重加擠在台中也能夠達到一倍部長這部分能夠幫我們研議嗎"},{"start":15688.047,"end":15699.074,"text":"提升了這個狀況大概就是跟繁重加級起來大概一倍那我們對於繁重加級大概有7項的這個評比方式只要是臺中市政府的這個的財政如果說是沒有問題我們也樂觀其成"},{"start":15715.245,"end":15721.372,"text":"我想趕快做一個相關的探討會後什麼時候可以給我資料我們現在缺額現在有6277人缺額282人缺額率是4.296都第二低什麼時候可以給我回應"},{"start":15732.267,"end":15748.572,"text":"臺中市南區文曉38設宅2022年你們有說要蓋一個江川設宅請問現在最新的進度臺中市南區有沒有要興建社會住宅蓋在哪裡文曉38有造成一些爭議當地的住戶不一定希望有沒有備案"},{"start":15749.554,"end":15755.321,"text":"跟委員報告 我想會後我們會把最新的狀況跟您回報好 麻煩你把最後的資料給我 謝謝"},{"start":15772.662,"end":15773.022,"text":"第一部分我們最近有來修一個地制法第33條"},{"start":15792.329,"end":15792.609,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15810.21,"end":15838.115,"text":"會有平地原住民的議員以及山地原住民的議員可是呢在我們的縣市部分卻忘記了這個沒有山地鄉的山地原住民他們選不出他們的山地議員所以很高興在這一次我們很多都有提案那目前呢也已經審訊那我只是要提到說這個部分另外在我們的地質法"},{"start":15838.795,"end":15838.975,"text":"內政部部長"},{"start":15859.753,"end":15874.967,"text":"因為很多人在詢問我們也不知道要怎麼提供比較正確的訊息所以是不是可以綜合各版的內容提出的修正文字跟試算可不可以到辦公室來給我一份謝謝委員的關心這個沒有問題我們也知道說有關地質法33條的部分即將要進入黨團的協商"},{"start":15881.713,"end":15908.092,"text":"綜合各家委員的意見 第一個我們要保障山地原住民不管有沒有山地鄉山地聚落他們本身有參政權這是一個再來就是總額的計算人口的規範是不是可以往下調降這個我們也列入考慮同時我們在處理總額的時候所謂的原住民的不管是議員或是未來的鄉鎮代表在第一屆要"},{"start":15909.113,"end":15931.618,"text":"修法通過以後能不能用過度式的方式不要讓他講說怎麼突然我的席次不見了這些的算法包括有加一個或是加兩個或是少一個或少兩個我們再把人口比例算清楚以後會跟委員做一個完整的報告那第二個部分也是跟修法有關我有去修才化法就是關於"},{"start":15932.958,"end":15935.68,"text":"原住民的鄉區曾經一度失去公法人地位"},{"start":15958.539,"end":15982.376,"text":"但是在2014年我們又把地制法第83條之7修正回來恢復它的公法人地位但是有一些東西就落掉了齁因為裁員的部分我們直轄市改制前各該三地鄉前三年度課收入平均數導致我們這些直轄市的園區它的稅課收入呢驟降變零"},{"start":15983.777,"end":15984.938,"text":"對 因為他的主政機關是在於我們的財稅單位"},{"start":16010.896,"end":16013.339,"text":"第三個部分想要請教因為我們之前"},{"start":16031.778,"end":16058.556,"text":"特別感謝就是在非都土地使用管制規則復表裡面去納入了露營場讓小型露營場得以合法化但是我們也知道國土計劃法要上路就是要廢掉這個非都所以在這邊我就是想要說如果說一旦廢止是不是會回到國土計劃法那因為時間的關係我是想說到辦公室來說明好不好"},{"start":16062.199,"end":16079.735,"text":"國路加上路以後原有合法的使用都可以繼續維持沒有動那很多落在國土保育區農業發展區的露營場大家也都抱著遲疑能不能持續經營那相關的執法他的一個目前輔導方向都來跟我做說明好不好"},{"start":16080.356,"end":16093.843,"text":"好 謝謝那另外就是那個宗教團體以自然人民益的部分我聽到很多很多都是跟我說來不及啦我想部長您應該也很清楚所以我是聽到說應該會延長對吧但是我要問另外一個問題就是當時我們元寶地"},{"start":16102.079,"end":16129.454,"text":"我們的這些教會他當時沒有一起處理進去可是你們那時候告訴我們說要在我們的元寶條例去處理阿我們元寶條例現在也不知道什麼時候所以我想要請教部長這個部分你們會打算怎麼處理我想如果這是宗教團體的話就可以納入我們剛剛所說的齁那個在延長上面看怎麼樣做比較好的輔導規範對我知道會延長我講的是元寶地因為我們沒有被納入"},{"start":16132.401,"end":16133.262,"text":"冰葬量能提升計畫"},{"start":16148.744,"end":16174.971,"text":"上一屆一進來我有講原住民好不容易可以接受從室內帳改為室外土帳現在又要接受火化放靈骨塔那我要講的是那個時候我說這個經費現在原鄉要搶都搶不到編的太少所以後來有編了111到114好了那這一屆我也要問因為現在來問的都說到114的都已經匡網了請問會不會延續擴編"},{"start":16178.411,"end":16181.595,"text":"對於原住民這樣子的殯葬設施其實它不是納古塔應該只是一個牆我們會支持會繼續擴編嗎擴編我不敢講但是會繼續支持因為部長您知道嗎"},{"start":16193.531,"end":16216.962,"text":"現在來講的都說到114年沒有了沒有空間了就是他完成程序譬如說原民的部落還有到原民會同意的話那內政部會來支持好謝謝那那個警政署的就給我報告就好因為我想要問進度因為警政署我一開始本來一直說希望你們設原專班後來謝謝你們告訴我說可以提高那之前呢是給我提高到3.6662啦"},{"start":16220.243,"end":16220.403,"text":"主席"},{"start":16236.296,"end":16253.613,"text":"當時警政署是願意放在我們一般警察徵社一個原名但是考選部本來是說尊重啦但是他們是比較建議要放在國家考試的一個原名特考裡面好都沒有關係署長我只想知道到底最後拍板定案要快"},{"start":16254.974,"end":16255.114,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":16282.287,"end":16283.968,"text":"蕭主席蕭主席蕭主席"},{"start":16304.158,"end":16333.131,"text":"本期要跟你討論的是5月27號新竹市這一個住宅大樓的這個問題那據聞是因為電纜線管線的這個問題那我們真的不忍心喔我們消防員呢上樓受救那當然難過的是兩名的消防員發生了這樣的事情因為他下樓下樓的過程那據他們協會所說的是當他們下去的時候"},{"start":16336.914,"end":16351.748,"text":"因為有毒菸所以在這樣的情況之下我們的消防人員在這麼困難的環境當中出現這樣的問題我想有幾件事情可以去討論"},{"start":16353.189,"end":16354.791,"text":"專業單位調查大樓消防與預警系統相關疏失"},{"start":16366.718,"end":16391.875,"text":"保命壺就是他們的氧氣瓶,他的氧氣量,很多的消防隊員跟我講,老舊的10公斤,很重的,他們清洗衣服就一定很重的,又賣10公斤,而且那個量還很少,現在科技進步,很輕3公斤,他的量又可以增加,所以我們是不是應該去檢視一下,"},{"start":16393.576,"end":16404.173,"text":"全國目前我們的量到底夠不夠還有在整個SOP流程當中我們的這個氧氣瓶"},{"start":16405.854,"end":16429.867,"text":"有新的科技我們應該要預算要支持啊你叫他已經整個身體就已經10公斤了而且這麼熱我看我們的消防人員喔沒有要拿起來面罩拿起來 衣服拿起來 全身都淋上去我真的看得心都在淌血所以我真的具體建議我們的消防人員的設備保命的至少連那個他們的氧氣瓶"},{"start":16434.386,"end":16438.228,"text":"目前的空氣品的量是以6.8公升這個量來處理那差不多6.9公斤這個量我們現在很多都已經改成FRP的氣瓶"},{"start":16462.643,"end":16463.664,"text":"各種的台灣如果需要的話"},{"start":16482.742,"end":16484.183,"text":"已經合定了已經合定了"},{"start":16512.369,"end":16513.493,"text":"總共有19億的經費要針對各莊"},{"start":16517.145,"end":16521.348,"text":"部長我請你做整體的一個研討去盤查一下這一個說明這要給本席第二個我們的人進去伸手不見五指我就去上一樓那我們現在科技"},{"start":16546.323,"end":16553.728,"text":"我完全同意楊委員所說的部分用什麼樣的科技的方式來協助救災趕快去預算給消防署然後趕快去研擬"},{"start":16572.142,"end":16578.32,"text":"因為法會那天是我從政以來一直跟我站在一起我也跟他們站在一起"},{"start":16579.99,"end":16596.943,"text":"這個我們是城市的英雄我們一定要好好照顧好不好那你那個專案第一個科技要怎麼做第二個他們的裝備要怎麼去調整那你書面資料給本席第二個議題探會的問題部長你剛上任現在我們講現在我們講營造業不動產大家都好緊張"},{"start":16606.155,"end":16606.175,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":16627.412,"end":16628.012,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16647.162,"end":16650.864,"text":"你現在告訴我說影響的成本只有0.9%不會影響不可能的事情我告訴你沒關係我告訴你"},{"start":16667.232,"end":16672.836,"text":"現在你們呼籲業者不要以攤位徵收為原則來分台物價這個是對的但是我們的理事長告訴我們金融碳排他們負責任的業者自己去找找什麼東西呢?他們去找喔找針對於綠建築標章他們趕快去找配對混凝土配對要怎麼減碳"},{"start":16690.726,"end":16695.93,"text":"他們業者很負責任所以這個加上來大概會是營業成本的兩成你們說的只有0.9部長差距那麼大所以本席要請部長你提出的攤配影響建築成本小為1這個數字跟實際上我們的業者是兜不起來的而且影響甚大差距很大我請你也跟他們座談一下"},{"start":16717.268,"end":16728.413,"text":"我們是不是也來座談一下因為有為的政府是你的政策你的數字是讓執行者可以執行你同意這個論點嗎完全同意好不好不然我們打一個時間我們來研討一下我們要開類似這樣子的一個研討會讓建築研究所跟"},{"start":16737.817,"end":16738.017,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16758.484,"end":16764.646,"text":"我們馬上來處理馬上來安排馬上來安排我再一個議題給他就好30秒就好我知道謝謝都更的優惠因為部長新到喔部長都更事業的優惠貸款從2006年1月份上路你是2000億18年來只有幾件59件"},{"start":16784.033,"end":16789.299,"text":"金額最後一次申請2012年是526.47億而且是銀行貸自由資金所以部長這個功課給你為什麼你有都更的優惠貸款高達2000億但是沒有人要給你申請你去討論"},{"start":16805.215,"end":16808.537,"text":"為什麼有錢人家不要給你申請?原因在哪裡?好不好來協助業者嘛好不好好不好部長"},{"start":16821.084,"end":16822.444,"text":"蘇清泉 何欣淳 鍾嘉斌黃仁 林德福李坤澤 吳祁銘"},{"start":16854.93,"end":16855.11,"text":"委員長安"},{"start":16873.696,"end":16901.406,"text":"市長早市長5月26號我們的高層呃呃高層樓的火警齁啊造成兩個齁不幸的罹難的我們的警消人員啊其實齁我看了齁這應該不應該發生啦因為你你整整棟大樓你那個大樓齁他那個高樓高樓層嘛他好像22樓但是你高樓層的火警還不至於說兩個我們的罹難的我們的兄弟齁"},{"start":16902.286,"end":16925.079,"text":"進去裡面那你氧氣不足那造成這個困擾那你現場的指揮官你現場指揮官你要負起這個責任我剛才聽部長講說很多我們的新竹市是一個密集的都市裡面我們的救援支援的車輛支援的分隊會很多那你現場指揮官你就要負起這個責任"},{"start":16928.001,"end":16938.575,"text":"因為我也是義消的大隊長我幹了義消二三十年我們都很了解大樓不應該發生這種事情你說一般的工廠那工廠有氣體有危險物有鐵皮"},{"start":16942.074,"end":16942.474,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16958.784,"end":16959.365,"text":"發言委員：完整會議發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":16976.3,"end":16999.7,"text":"我們每個分隊都要消防設備的檢修申報你裡面的配置圖配置圖你現場指揮官你都要很了解這一棟大樓的現場的配置起火點是從幾樓哪一戶你都要很充實的去了解掌握那你現場指揮官是在幹什麼所以署長這都是我們要撫起這個責任"},{"start":17003.135,"end":17026.304,"text":"感謝委員關心事實上這次火警我們當天就啟動災害調查會那災害調查會會從整個建築物的消防區有沒有啟動那防火管理還有防火區化有沒有處理這個可以調查那委員關心救災人員跟指揮這個體系也是我們另外一個調查重點會把為什麼人員進去那進去的狀況到底發生什麼問題"},{"start":17027.484,"end":17044.939,"text":"指揮官在這個過程當中怎麼指揮怎麼管理包括剛才委員催省的空氣品的量量的問題是不是有充分的處理由我們部的政事來主持會逐次的逐個現場來做一個勘察做了解"},{"start":17045.459,"end":17045.96,"text":"科技的救災每個縣市特別配置四部"},{"start":17064.494,"end":17068.678,"text":"同時我們現在是還有22個計劃正在院都合訂了包括上禮拜院長特別合訂個人的裝備的不足我們有19億的經費讓縣市來針對個人裝備"},{"start":17089.296,"end":17108.493,"text":"看怎麼調配 那這個調配就是因應每一個縣市的需求狀況來做因應處理跟調整 其中五地整個在救災裝備器材還有車輛 目前都已經在這裏了這裏就是說管區到底需要什麼 他們最清楚 但是我們的經費是已經到位"},{"start":17110.294,"end":17124.784,"text":"經費到位吼你說吼好我們現在的經費吼都編制我們的無人機嘛吼還有機器人嘛但是你大樓你有樓梯間吼你機器人你到了上面但是還是有點笨重嘛吼你說"},{"start":17126.041,"end":17126.061,"text":"委員長"},{"start":17146.545,"end":17146.685,"text":"主席"},{"start":17162.097,"end":17162.257,"text":"現場指揮官．"},{"start":17180.655,"end":17180.855,"text":"向委員報告"},{"start":17196.357,"end":17197.658,"text":"現場的救災指揮車通訊車那個通訊指揮車專攻"},{"start":17217.888,"end":17218.168,"text":"因為我的時間有限"},{"start":17242.551,"end":17243.191,"text":"我先請警政署署長"},{"start":17262.162,"end":17264.705,"text":"有請警政署的張署長"},{"start":17280.104,"end":17284.287,"text":"打炸的問題這是不管說我們執政黨也好 不管說全國人民 大家都是非常痛恨這個打炸所以打炸你今天跟接任我們的警政署署長 未來你要怎樣去推動包括化部會的整合"},{"start":17297.017,"end":17297.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17314.736,"end":17336.566,"text":"委員報告其實打造這個工作不光是只有內政部包括有通傳會還有這些金管會還有這些數位部法務部那我們現在打造的事法已經送到院方這邊來了希望這個法源能夠趕快通過之後讓這個源頭這些上架的這一些的"},{"start":17337.426,"end":17340.069,"text":"打擊的面的部分我們會更精準的打擊那這是我上任最首要工作就是要打仗"},{"start":17353.806,"end":17375.936,"text":"好 謝謝我們期待署長到時候我們也會在立法院前面來幫助來協助你趕快成立你採用實名制才能真正的好職不然大家是全國大家都最痛快謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝我們期待 謝謝好 跟周委我們兩位都是非常支持的謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝"},{"start":17380.063,"end":17380.283,"text":"國土署署長"},{"start":17404.352,"end":17416.409,"text":"那因為我們的交通商網一直對兒少事實上是最大殺傷力那台灣又是少子化我們的出生率已經到0.78那我們看整個的數據來看的話"},{"start":17418.287,"end":17418.588,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17441.516,"end":17443.077,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17470.956,"end":17471.857,"text":"主席"},{"start":17489.546,"end":17513.859,"text":"這個我想問的你去核定了418件約大概56億的一個經費目前改善成果有沒有掌握因為去年執行那今天照理來講應該是執行完畢了應該跟委員報告其實大多數都完工那我們通常是這樣會做一件事情就是說完以後我們會請地方政府就它所改善的項目"},{"start":17515.543,"end":17531.645,"text":"再做一年的監測,就是說你這一年的車禍發生的狀態車禍的肇事率、樣態跟之前有沒有改善我們就開始做這樣的一個,因為這樣才能確認所以它今年會是一個很重要的測試期"},{"start":17533.435,"end":17556.461,"text":"各位報告就我們從之前的這個一朝四入口的改善那邊就給激一個經驗本來就有個指標是一改善一朝四入口可是現在事實上是針對校園周邊的話你們事實上是讓學校自己提出來學校就不是懂交通的人然後提出來的那我不知道你這418件的核定事實上是懂交通的人提出來還是說他們是看傷亡"},{"start":17556.901,"end":17570.31,"text":"有針對於我們的道安資訊平台裏邊的分析出來的熱點然後針對這個熱點然後去做那我要改善這個我們的街道裏邊那可能讓孩子有更好的通學環境有嗎"},{"start":17586.961,"end":17587.101,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":17605.896,"end":17606.056,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17623.258,"end":17652.311,"text":"可以什麼時候給我這些相關的資料好 我們應該會後應該很快就可以統計出來給不過也是我們會持續要求就是說就像委員所講不能只做學校周圍那一段而是應該要延伸應該是通學環境所以當初新南交通安全設施條例也是本來我們是希望訂在法條裡邊最後事實上是用我們的說明來講那我們還是期待你要特別去注意到"},{"start":17652.551,"end":17652.931,"text":"主席"},{"start":17663.359,"end":17663.479,"text":"韓國、日本"},{"start":17683.838,"end":17707.611,"text":"可不可以先以學校周遭150公尺的範圍來打造上放學的環境未來我們當然期待是到韓國那最終走到日本是500那這邊都有一些比較配套的我覺得也請署長這邊看一下就是說關護欄照明這些都是一個很大的問題彰化那個三個姐弟發生的就是因為"},{"start":17708.391,"end":17727.74,"text":"登關的問題 使得他們在通學的時候 比較是有一定的困難那你剛剛講說有通盤掌握那有沒有看到人家寫的你們原本這個上邊的圖是他當初送給你的計畫說要這樣改善結果改善成什麼"},{"start":17728.14,"end":17757.56,"text":"地方政府還是按照他自己的改善啊完全沒有按照他當初給你們圖面改善的啊就現在有民眾揭發了這件事情那所以我剛剛前面問說有沒有掌握那如果有掌握的話不會發生這種那人家只丟一件搞不好是五件十件都不知道你那前面的四百多件是不是也是有類似的狀況所以請國土署這邊要充分掌握下一頁最後就是我還是主張行人周遭的環境讓孩子給一條通學環境安全的路為什麼"},{"start":17758.501,"end":17762.026,"text":"國中是小學的兩倍那我們大概沒有一個家庭經得起說孩子到高中階段的時候死傷"},{"start":17771.786,"end":17772.386,"text":"請吳處長辛苦一點,謝謝林月琴委員"},{"start":17805.202,"end":17814.289,"text":"林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在、鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在、林柱英、林柱英、林柱英委員不在、林健琦委員質詢"},{"start":17825.486,"end":17831.85,"text":"國民黨立法委員林倩琦,住在您過去高雄的選區。我本身也是原住民阿美族。我要講的因為是待會我會關心的一些議題,會要在這邊跟您就教還有相關的這個單位。"},{"start":17857.086,"end":17876.263,"text":"海洋國家公園和高雄市在管理的,這都是我待會整體的業務我先講一下主題,待會針對移民署,要幫移民署的一些基層人員請命接下來是海洋國家公園的這個區塊再來是原住民,當然包括宗教的護鎮等等"},{"start":17878.445,"end":17880.388,"text":"移民署署長國家公園署"},{"start":17892.076,"end":17920.421,"text":"好 謝謝那移民署的這個部分我是不是可以針對以下那個如果有需要相關的報告是不是請各單位就在一個月左右至少給我一個回應就是有關於我問的這個主題那如果有必要請進一步我們口頭做個溝通那第一個部分我幫移民署的基層人員請命這是我自己本身有一些經驗那我後來發現這個移民署在基層的人員人力不太足"},{"start":17921.321,"end":17921.702,"text":"人力不足"},{"start":17937.056,"end":17937.096,"text":"藝民署"},{"start":17960.267,"end":17982.594,"text":"同學那雖然我在教文委員會那我也知道在教育的這個部分我們現在會面臨很多國際生那這個內政委員會在過去在前幾天其實也處理過也有相關的這個討論那在學生的部分其實還在學校那學生延伸出來未來的社會問題我有確定的目前這個行政院的平台還沒有注意到這一點"},{"start":17984.675,"end":17999.826,"text":"移民署我相信已經直接第一線碰到了所以在基層能力的這個部分我先跟大家預告可能目前政策的走向還有方式上還沒有做一些處理的話這部分要先因應要不然未來我們的社會成本會很高"},{"start":18001.187,"end":18020.08,"text":"未來還有大家剛才也都在講的詐騙的問題所以第一個我先幫基層的人力來做請命然後第二個是有關於他們的退休移民署這個部分的這個退休人力因為我覺得他們的工作跟警察有點相近但是他們也不在軍警銷的一個退休的這個機制上"},{"start":18021.041,"end":18021.562,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":18045.387,"end":18046.548,"text":"第二部分就是國家公園我本身比較關注國家公園油氣的這一塊"},{"start":18062.987,"end":18063.248,"text":"國際公園保存"},{"start":18080.234,"end":18108.351,"text":"這一段時間我們都關注到這個海洋我們現在有一個海洋國家公園嘛那應該業務上就是南方四島跟這個東沙環礁對不對那我今天想問的是說不知道你們在這個部分的這個油氣規劃有沒有相關的比較積極一點的資訊我直接問好了啦除了說南方四島要從澎湖去那可能有一些油氣的可能性那我知道東沙環礁這些我們可能都要搭重繁那有一些業者在"},{"start":18109.051,"end":18133.127,"text":"跟委員報告東沙環礁現在並沒有開放一般人民可以去那所以也就是我們那個重型帆船直接開過去只要躲過你們的查緝我們就可以去了是這樣嗎因為我這邊常常收到相關的資訊我會這樣講是因為我也有想要開這船去那所以我想了解你們到底要怎麼辦因為很多業者基本上自己都在開去我也看了很久東沙沒有開放"},{"start":18135.057,"end":18156.256,"text":"所以那你們要不要規劃一下因為畢竟大家都會在油氣的這個部分要不然你們是不是這個部分現在是這樣跟委員報告這個可能國安的部分他是有一些考慮這樣好了那個不好意思因為我後面幾個我就直接講所以東沙的部分是不是您可以在油氣的這個部分來跟我做一個主題上的溝通"},{"start":18157.56,"end":18161.965,"text":"請問還有其他時機可以給我一個list目前在國家公園時機保存區這個規劃裡面在原住民的區域到底有哪些list跟內容"},{"start":18178.724,"end":18192.534,"text":"第三個部分是你們都談SDGs還有ESGs那除了你們現在在報告裡面加了很多這個灌木橋木你們怎麼決定的然後在水下的部分你們怎麼處理跟委員報告這可能是一個探會的問題"},{"start":18196.688,"end":18210.914,"text":"今天很多人談到碳費啦如果說是綠碳的話他是八大菱形的話您先不用解釋這個專業就是在跟我這邊做專業的報告可以嗎然後最後是中校的部分我這邊要提醒一下"},{"start":18212.674,"end":18236.205,"text":"在原鄉地區我們看到很多大家知道原鄉地區的宗教比例但我們常常看到一些那個廟宇或者是救人在早上因為有聽到這個什麼國土署還有這個有關於相關的單位可能會給這個宗教的部分一些支持但是我們可能要談的是原鄉就是如果有相關的"},{"start":18238.207,"end":18238.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18258.524,"end":18259.925,"text":"提供文字資料給林倩琦委員"},{"start":18288.194,"end":18288.695,"text":"謝謝全體委員的諮詢,謝謝部長,謝謝各署長。"},{"start":18291.977,"end":18320.878,"text":"登記發言委員．除不在場者之外．其餘的都已經發言完畢．詢答結束委員．廖先祥．林俊憲．林登福．陳冠廷．所提的書面質詢．列入紀錄．刊登公報．書面質詢和未及答覆的部分．請相關單位在一週之內．以書面答覆並複製本會．本次的議程處理完畢．我們現在散會．我們先休息5分鐘．讓我們的議事人員．還有我休息一下．上個洗手間好不好"},{"start":18321.138,"end":18322.588,"text":"待會就進行我們另外一個會議謝謝"},{"start":18328.339,"end":18329.94,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18353.565,"end":18353.965,"text":"主席"},{"start":18376.636,"end":18377.016,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15960","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dda75a1f35c7302ecd30e87a8aaf0819ae3be8d109af184be4d99c6bcca6db27965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-29","start_time":"2024-05-29T08:31:49+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:57:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12311,"委員發言時間":"08:31:49 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,{"start":1848.24,"end":1868.796,"text":"公共工程落實循環經濟成立再生力量運用與公共工程跨部會推動小組推動使用粉化再生力量以及煉鋼爐渣112年去化量均已大於產出量穩定去化中已見成效"},{"start":1869.597,"end":1886.142,"text":"第二為擴大使用濾金分離土挖泡除料以通行要求機關與工程中盡可能達成拋用平衡且不得要求廠商回購對於現堆置與濾金廠之拋除料亦正延伸去化作業"},{"start":1887.702,"end":1911.967,"text":"第三協助推動重大計畫促進區域發展均衡協助機關檢視計畫之推動期程分期分階循序啟動穩健推動並平衡區域發展二加速計畫及基本設計的審議並持續納入本會列管主動協調解決跨部會問題以加速推動執行"},{"start":1913.936,"end":1927.115,"text":"第二關於精進公共工程管理部分一提升施工查核成效持續精進獎勵措施一落實查核選案原則以民眾檢舉媒體報導決標"},{"start":1931.281,"end":1958.684,"text":"標價偏低進度明顯落後大幅變更契約等為優先查核對象並加強查核聚合工程113年度截至4月底以查核1379件第二嚴厲材料試驗運用科技設備以強化防偽措施第三落實查核缺失改善追蹤強化考核諸位確保缺失確實改善"},{"start":1959.909,"end":1966.155,"text":"金淨金職獎獎勵措施至89年契112年已辦理23屆其中公共工程品質優良獎祭697件公共設施維護管理獎祭47件個人貢獻獎祭149人得獎近年並以新增"},{"start":1982.11,"end":1995.909,"text":"公辦職人獎特別貢獻獎且將防火性能列入公共設施維護管理獎評審項目第二採全生命週期管控主動協處公建計劃"},{"start":1999.195,"end":2006.077,"text":"掌握工程計畫執行進度截至113年4月底共列管408項總經費7876.89億元經費達成率25.16%將逐月以督導匯報管控達成本年度達成率95%的目標值"},{"start":2020.16,"end":2045.155,"text":"第二主動協處困難問題每月召開督導會報並不定期實地查訪113年截至5月已辦理7次計劃訪查第三加速停工終結約工程復工或重新發包針對未執行金額較大之案件定期開會協助排除困難已排定113年6月14日針對37案提供協處"},{"start":2049.98,"end":2069.781,"text":"第4督促機關一約加速付款。113年度節日4月底,廠商通報案件列管共計3件,機關均已完成付款結案,令主動篩選預期付款標案計45件,督促機關全部完成付款結案,付款金額4.11億元。"},{"start":2072.344,"end":2091.296,"text":"第5規納流標原因提出因應作為自107年起以協助機關檢視流標案件計340餘件並將相關注意事項及因應作為向機關宣導在各機關努力下工程採購近一年兩"},{"start":2094.571,"end":2096.973,"text":"112年4月到113年3月兩次內招標決標率達約92%較113年87%提升將持續協處第三強化機關職安管理加強最弱風險案件查核"},{"start":2113.976,"end":2129.049,"text":"一、預計113年完成藉階勞動部僱主違反勞動法令資料庫並將建置警示訊息提醒各機關加強職安管理第二、應用廠商履歷篩選潛在風險案件配合勞動部113年營造業墜落打擊年"},{"start":2136.155,"end":2157.068,"text":"針對有發生墜落災害疑慮之公共工程案件加強查核第4抽查橋樑維護管理及設施使用情形橋樑維護管理情形定期盤點全國橋樑維護管理情形將於113年抽查8件特殊性橋樑之維護管理情形執行情形"},{"start":2158.188,"end":2175.437,"text":"公有建築有效使用情形設施管理機關每年至少主動辦理一次清查本會議定113年6月召開督導會議113年12月前完成20件抽查加速地方災後復建工程"},{"start":2176.763,"end":2191.866,"text":"一統籌各部會辦理審議協助地方政府加速辦理公用設施災後復建工程二為加速113年0403地震災後復原重建已經建立專案小組召開列管會議並採集報及審於5月24日召開花蓮縣及雲林縣地方"},{"start":2199.128,"end":2219.069,"text":"復健經費之審議會計合列131件經費約7億元。打造高效低碳採購第一納入全生命週期成本考量以計劃階段將後續使用或營運維修成本報費處理以及成本消費等一併納入編列計劃經費"},{"start":2222.487,"end":2245.878,"text":"與採購階段將全生命週期成本項目列為評分項目第二徵修政府採購相關範本指引一持續編修政府採購企業範本將節能減碳納入設計考量要求公有建築取得建築能效標示分化再生力料等納入力受採購績效來平和"},{"start":2249.78,"end":2265.871,"text":"共同供應契約之廠商提供產品探索機資訊供機關優先選購低碳產品第二編定指引手冊協助機關辦理資訊服務採購於112年9月25日定定各類資訊服務採購之共通性失通安全基本要求參考一覽表以及資訊服務採購作業指引並於113年5月1日定定"},{"start":2278.059,"end":2297.106,"text":"政府資訊服務採購經費估算編列手冊第三應用工程履歷引進悠揚廠商一持續建置工程履歷目前已有一萬四千余家施工廠商之履歷資料督促施工廠商自我要求第二擴充人員履歷"},{"start":2298.306,"end":2317.052,"text":"公機關查詢應用於履約管理藉以督促參與公共工程之人員自我替力第三引進優良廠商將廠商公共工程履約情形納入評分以擇優太烈第四持續推動政府採購之電子化一持續推動電子領標"},{"start":2320.63,"end":2330.359,"text":"檢審廠商領標成本112年度機關提供電子招標文件之案件計22.5萬餘件電子領標比例達99.66%113年度將持續朝全面電子化邁進"},{"start":2338.146,"end":2360.835,"text":"二加速推動電子投標增進採購效力一百一十三年度財務及工程採購電子投標目目標值分別為百分之五十一百分之十二持續強化電子投標之便利性及信賴度第四加速並提升禮約正義調解成功力一"},{"start":2361.855,"end":2384.183,"text":"提升調解案件之處理及效率一百零九年至一百一十二年本會調解成立率約八成一百一十三年將精進調解流程加速案件之處理提升處理效率第二設置政府採購諮詢機制減少契約條款認知起義至一百一十三年四月底"},{"start":2385.083,"end":2388.447,"text":"召開諮詢會議協處案件及122件約7乘3採納本會議件事實化解機關與廠商間對企業條款認知起義避免衍生理業爭議"},{"start":2399.87,"end":2423.842,"text":"三節以公共工程建設之推動與民眾福祉息息相關並為國家經濟發展之主要動力本會積極協助各機關排除公共工程推動上所遇到的困難與障礙全力協助加速公共建設之推動以增進經濟動能以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":2430.876,"end":2455.572,"text":"請陳主委回座現在介紹在場的委員林國成委員林沛翔委員現在介紹列席的官員行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委陳維翔副主委"},{"start":2458.442,"end":2478.596,"text":"李怡德副主委主任秘書羅天健企劃處徐兆熙處長技術處曾鈞敏處長工程管理處黃順昌處長秘書處邵志祺處長好一下簡略"},{"start":2490.988,"end":2516.807,"text":"現在進行尋討．發言時間出席委員6加1分鐘．列席委員5分鐘．委員發言登記於10點30分截止．各委員如有提案．請於10點前提出．以便議事人員會診．暫定10點30分休息．中午原則上不休息．"},{"start":2517.962,"end":2538.299,"text":"現在請登記第一位林佩祥委員發言又請陳主委請陳主委議員早"},{"start":2548.388,"end":2564.627,"text":"陳主委先從我們國家的大方向來看好了我們知道所謂的2050的這個淨零減碳全面淨零的轉型是我們中華民國的目標那本席想知道在公共工程上面怎麼樣能夠全面納入所謂的淨零碳排"},{"start":2566.95,"end":2578.728,"text":"在生態減核或者是淨零碳排的制度面上面如何把減碳的部分能夠納入而且制定具體的執行期程跟執行方式這方面主委您的看法是什麼呢?"},{"start":2580.405,"end":2600.572,"text":"好謝謝委員指教那麼所有的工建的設施啊占整個碳排放的占一定比例啊除了這個石化業或者電力業等等公共建設是占一定比例所以呢那麼為了完成2050淨零排放的目標在公共建設部分啊那麼"},{"start":2602.372,"end":2624.138,"text":"這個工程會本理執掌在所有的公共設施計畫在基本設計的審查的時候就會要求納入那麼整個計畫在減排的考量那在施作的時候會進行查核那麼是否符合能夠減排的一些必要的設施那麼在"},{"start":2625.678,"end":2653.768,"text":"所有的相關的建材方面就是碳排比較大的一些建材那麼會進行資料的收集那麼納入一個資料庫相關碳排係數會納入一個資料庫提供給各機關辦理公設施的機關來作為參佐那麼務必在達到這個2050那麼進行排放國家總目標在公共設施這部分進一份力量"},{"start":2654.667,"end":2672.831,"text":"好那另外一個議題就是有關所謂的綠色採購我們都知道說從公共採購的力量來執行推動的時候這個歐盟有一套所謂的Green Public Procurement也就是所謂的綠色公共採購的標準那GPP的標準涵蓋認證之利的那我想請問主委說現在有的採購規定要如何能夠納入所謂的永續指標將循環條件循環度"},{"start":2682.913,"end":2707.886,"text":"可回收材質比例包裝材料等面向納入採購標準謝謝委員指教因為綠色採購的主管機關是環境部工程會基於公共工程的主管機關會全力配合環境部就綠色採購部分要求辦理機關進行符合環境部標準的綠色採購也會"},{"start":2711.327,"end":2738.017,"text":"將所有綠色採購的相關資訊提供給各機關作為採購的依據謝謝剛剛我在看報告的時候我看到報告第10頁有關工程履歷的運用也就是希望用工程履歷來引進所謂的優良廠商那就讓本席想到另外一個議題就是有關金職獎的發放其實這個議題本來是在上一位主委吳哲成主委的時候本席就想來質詢了"},{"start":2739.777,"end":2758.451,"text":"因為我個人認為說我們看到有很多很多的例子在金質獎的發放上面是相對腐爛的而且後面沒有一定的這個後續的處置動作許一個例子基隆市政府在2022年8月23日直接發布新聞基隆市勢力田徑場館的運動機能提升環境營造獲得最佳規劃設計類金質獎"},{"start":2765.295,"end":2780.104,"text":"基本上來講本席是基隆選出來的立委那這個體育場我本來也在那邊運動過超過30年以上但是現在到目前今天工程還沒有完工原因是因為有發生重大的失誤根據報導記載"},{"start":2782.805,"end":2799.132,"text":"原建築師事務所提送第二次變更設計內容因設計缺失而造成工期延宕約150天換算成工程進度達20%以上延誤履約期限情節重大設計疏失約6000萬到8000萬元也就是說"},{"start":2802.754,"end":2811.096,"text":"基隆市的田徑廠重建工程．歷經兩次發包從4億1600多萬．得標廠商認為設計有瑕疵．而無法施工．寧願棄標解約．而原林宥昌市府團隊卻認為．設計無誤而不願改變設計．要再追加預算到6億．尤其是再發包得標的廠商．還是認為有瑕疵"},{"start":2829.319,"end":2854.949,"text":"結果在追加預算變更設計才進行工程換言之2021年開工2021年2月開工的基隆市田徑廠工程此時卻只能目標設定在明年2025年8月底才能完工已經比原定的日期足足晚了20個月主委你認為這樣是值得一個金職獎的獎勵嗎"},{"start":2856.949,"end":2857.149,"text":"請問主委"},{"start":2884.289,"end":2895.281,"text":"如果是公共工程中發生瑕疵卻獲得公共工程金值獎那是不是應該檢討續獎要件或者考慮追回獎項並追究相關人員責任呢?"},{"start":2898.736,"end":2926.262,"text":"謝謝委員指教委員這個提示非常的確實那麼我們將來會研議關於金質獎的辦法目前金質獎評審呢是在完工階段所以我們會將來金質獎的評審會從動工到完工這個階段都有一些節點會去查核會評這個會考評納入最終金質獎的評估以後我們正在研議當中那麼剛才"},{"start":2928.382,"end":2951.992,"text":"委員所指教的這個金字獎已經追回那有沒有有沒有相關的這個追究相關責任相關的問題我們會後再跟委員報告好好謝謝謝謝林佩祥委員發言現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":2958.649,"end":2964.31,"text":"好謝謝主席本集邀請我們工程會陳金德主委請陳主委主委好主委我們今天來關心採購各項採購案為什麼會發生弊案為什麼會有浪費工廠的情形"},{"start":2984.929,"end":3005.906,"text":"那這其中就是這五點這不是我寫的這是審計單位所提列出來的就有五大共同性的缺失所以會造成我們一些工程的採購弊案甚至也會有浪費工廠的狀況他說第一點你沒有合理的編列工程預算"},{"start":3007.291,"end":3033.226,"text":"這裡講的就是說你看得到部分工程單價都是偏離市場行情超過太高甚至有的工程整體跟市價相比就是說有很大的一個差距也就是編得太寬鬆太高這當中就產生會有弊案的那種狀況第二個就是沒有按照規定何時訂定底價"},{"start":3036.848,"end":3051.952,"text":"第三點沒有周圓的保存採購文件所以他很多文件他沒有保存好的時候會造成哪裡判定投標廠商有沒有違標等等異常的狀況第四點他說採購的評選過程不嚴謹就是評選的問題再來就是驗收作業不周全"},{"start":3064.631,"end":3073.875,"text":"請問這幾點我們工程會有哪些工程會認為應該可以啦就你工程會本身的職責你可以來改善了謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3078.444,"end":3106.563,"text":"工程會主管是政府採購法那麼在公共工程部分是在重大一定額度以上的公共工程在在工程會會有基本設計的審查甚至在招審決標的過程工程會有督導之責所以工程會會依照這個相關的採購法及執法的相關規定加上一些作為標準那權力督促要求各主辦機關確實"},{"start":3110.084,"end":3122.688,"text":"來改善如上委員所提示的這5個缺失我希望曾主委上來能夠針對過去大概整理出來採購弊案的發生的種種樣態能夠提出對策來改善我們各項的招標採購"},{"start":3133.271,"end":3154.776,"text":"再來在政策性的推動上那工程會這裡我提出一點就我們現在需要進行的節能減碳那我們在節能減碳上其中有一點就是對於營造材料那其中在"},{"start":3156.328,"end":3178.366,"text":"由台灣營建研究院所舉辦的根據聯合國氣候變遷大會組成的先行者聯盟宣誓支持水泥和混泥土的低碳採購協議聯盟的成員就包括台灣成功到2030年以前我們每一年都要至少購買10%的低碳排的水泥或者混泥土"},{"start":3179.813,"end":3204.227,"text":"大家知道其實基本上混凝土佔碳排放量在全世界大概佔了8%就人類進行各項的工程一定都會用到混凝土其實佔了非常高的碳排放量全球大概8%那碳排放在混凝土裡面主要就是水泥的製成所以每一公噸的水泥大概會釋放900公斤的二氧化碳"},{"start":3205.373,"end":3217.982,"text":"那麼約賬混凝土排放量的90%也就是說混凝土的主要碳排放都是來自水泥那因此呢政府啊就推動啊要用石灰石水泥你知道這個事情"},{"start":3221.977,"end":3222.997,"text":"但實際使用上不是這樣子啊"},{"start":3251.627,"end":3276.049,"text":"你理解的跟現況是不一樣現在業者反映因為你石灰石水泥工程會又規定它不得已摻料那你不得已摻料的話用起來就不好用了那你會規定它不能摻料是因為你怕它摻的料會不會影響到以後因為石灰石水泥不是一般的傳統水泥怕影響到它的安全性"},{"start":3277.481,"end":3305.195,"text":"所以呢所以國內的業者現在都不用石灰石水泥使用率非常非常低那其中的工程會規定你如果業者要參料石灰石水泥你要參料那麼你必須要經過第三方專業機構驗證那麼政府才會同意你去使用參料的石灰石水泥所以你現在造成現在的營造廠工程單位根本都不用石灰石水泥"},{"start":3306.175,"end":3332.66,"text":"你知道真的是吧那你這樣就就曲解了就這種要推動碳排減放啊你就遇到了一個跟實際使用狀況非常矛盾的一個地方啊你了解這個事情嗎所以如果你未來真的要鼓勵業者採用低碳排的建築材料啊那麼你應該要有相當政策性的鼓勵或者是你必須要放寬的地方啊因為你加什麼水你那成本會比較高啊"},{"start":3334.226,"end":3339.391,"text":"業者以成本來講的話他絕對可以避免他盡量不要用"},{"start":3340.632,"end":3366.439,"text":"所以未來我們是不是在工程採購政府帶頭你要推動嘛那麼是不是會有例如如果你使用環保節能低碳排的建築材料那麼我就給你獎勵也就是說你在編列預算的時候就給他獎勵或者是或者是呢你拉入工程的金質獎你在考核考核評量工程金質獎的時候你要計算他使用多少"},{"start":3367.72,"end":3395.96,"text":"環保地碳排的材質這個也必須納入考量我看你對這個問題好像還不是很了解主委向委員報告那麼關於要經第三方的這個驗證然後報機關同意才能使用這一部分我會遵照委員的指示來做相關的研擬來修正那麼也會鼓勵各相關機關在源頭在編列預算的時候就落實使用水池水泥"},{"start":3398.042,"end":3408.387,"text":"好謝謝主委謝謝主席林俊憲委員發言完畢現在請陳素月委員發言"},{"start":3426.438,"end":3429.761,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委請陳主委陳委員早主委早安就是我們知道這個2050淨零碳排可以說是整個世界的一個趨勢那我們根據那個統計資料就是我國每年的這個碳排的這個碳淨排放量達到"},{"start":3455.561,"end":3479.393,"text":"兩萬七千五百一十五萬噸那其中就是以這個公共工程可以說是這個碳排的大戶所以我們要減碳的話應該就是我們政府要從公共工程來帶頭做起那這個部分在之前的主委在這個部分也有陸續在推動相關的政策今天看到您的這個施政報告裡面也有提到"},{"start":3479.853,"end":3499.105,"text":"相關的這淨零碳排的一些政策那在這邊就是有關這個淨零碳排當然就是說在這個工程裡面就是以這個材料針對這個材料是要從這個材料去著手下手那我們看到就是在2023年的這個第28屆聯合國氣候變遷大會裡面加拿大德國英國美國有發起設定"},{"start":3507.351,"end":3514.989,"text":"公有建築以建材為主的運含碳減量目標推行國內地碳建築採購政策的方式"},{"start":3515.706,"end":3538.093,"text":"規定要在國家級的建設使用低碳水泥的混泥土那這個在國外也行之有年了就是包括這個美國他有很多的這個大型的一個建設道路交通的一個建設都有採用這個低碳水泥那我想請教一下目前我們國內就是公共工程針對這個低碳水泥的一個政策是如何"},{"start":3540.703,"end":3557.937,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那麼低碳水泥就是石灰石水泥那麼現在這個石灰石水泥在各台灣的水泥公司這個產品已經相當成熟了那目前使用上我看的資料是需經第三方驗證之後報"},{"start":3560.58,"end":3576.478,"text":"主管機關同意才能使用那麼一直會覺得說相當的不方便那麼甚至規範裡面還有禁止參配其他的材料所以導致導致這個混凝土廠他就"},{"start":3577.079,"end":3599.862,"text":"不在就比較不喜歡用這個紫微水你受限你相關的施工規範那麼這個跟委員報告啊那麼工程會課正在研擬相關的修正那麼讓這個這個混凝土業者能夠使用這個啊這個低碳的紫微水那麼達到減碳的目標這個我們在課正在研討修正當中"},{"start":3601.833,"end":3613.242,"text":"目前我們國內的水泥大廠他們也有已經研發出低碳水泥這樣子的普特蘭石灰石水泥所以它的減碳的%數可以達到10%"},{"start":3617.585,"end":3640.299,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3641.564,"end":3669.043,"text":"剛剛包括林委員也有在關心的那主委也有提到的就是說需要這個第三方的專業機構的一個認證這個部分可能對業者可能會有比較比較多的一些阻礙那這方面另外是不是會不會造成成本的一個增加這個部分主委有沒有去了解這部分所謂成本增加是驗證過程會增加成本這部分比較還不是很清楚"},{"start":3670.481,"end":3697.338,"text":"好那這個部分就是我們就是如果說我們對於公共工程我們可以來帶頭使用這個低碳水你當然能夠達到這個減碳的一個目標那事實上在之前我也有質詢過那個主委就是有關我們政府公共工程在推動這個減碳的這樣子的一個政策目標的時候事實上我們也有在"},{"start":3698.8,"end":3705.876,"text":"針對電子採購網就是政府的電子採購網有新增這個減碳的一個欄位這個主委你知道嗎"},{"start":3707.779,"end":3732.452,"text":"我跟委員報告那麼檢探欄位這部分根據我初步的瞭解是應該在試行當中這個整個還沒有很全面性的實施這部分我們在就初步在因為我瞭解好像工程會之前是說今年3月會上線可是到目前好像還沒有上線"},{"start":3733.392,"end":3743.138,"text":"對我會進一步再把這個政策再盤查再討論那麼詳細之後再來做必要的調整或決定"},{"start":3744.153,"end":3769.066,"text":"是那就是這個回到剛剛我問到了這個低碳水泥的這個部分如果說你在這個減碳你要新增減碳的欄位那如果說你工程會對於相關建材的一個使用你沒有一個明確的一個開放的一個政策的話那未來這個營造廠商相關的單位他要如何去填寫這個減碳的欄位問"},{"start":3773.795,"end":3801.23,"text":"關於這個公共設施使用的這個原料或建材那麼它的碳排系數那麼工程會也課證這個在希望在每個機關在辦理公共建設的時候在施做的過程當中能夠做一個盤查然後來收集相關的碳排系數在資料庫裡面那希望將來比較完整之後會提供給各機關來使用"},{"start":3802.976,"end":3819.429,"text":"我想就是這個節能減碳、淨零碳排這個是真的是一個未來趨勢然後也是一個很新的觀念那我們在政策上還有這個實務上要怎樣去落實這個可能有很多面向要去考量"},{"start":3820.35,"end":3843.05,"text":"所以這部分可能要請主委多費心那另外就是說我們也看到主委今天的報告裡面在第10頁你有提到就是我們針對就是要打造高效低碳的採購那你這邊有提到說配合內政部要求公有建築取得建築能效標示"},{"start":3845.212,"end":3862.119,"text":"建築能效標示這個部分在內政部在2022年他就已經有公布了這樣子的一個認證的一個標準那我們目前工程會在公有建築的這個部分推展的進度如何是請同仁來回答目前有開始在推了嗎"},{"start":3870.97,"end":3893.87,"text":"跟委員報告目前7月範本已經把綠建築5000萬以上都要求要取得綠建築標章那這個節能標是我們現在也站在修7月範本之後也會放進去要透過7月來要求廠商來達成這個目標可是我們只是要求可是廠商我想對這個可能都還不是很清楚所以我們是不是不能只是片面的一個要求你要如何去協助是不是那個主委"},{"start":3898.023,"end":3920.077,"text":"當然7月範本有對各機關有指引作用那可能廠商那邊也需要相對的一些資訊所以工程會必須做必要的說明或是必要的宣導或者是說請各機關那麼在設計的時候那麼就能夠有充分的資訊來做這樣的一個節能的標能源的標效能的標示"},{"start":3920.917,"end":3922.457,"text":"陳素月委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":3967.162,"end":3969.943,"text":"好主席請陳主委請陳主委委員長好陳主委當然據我對你個人之了解當然你來接公共工程會這"},{"start":3989.58,"end":4016.866,"text":"我個人對你的評語但是報章雜誌當然對你有一些負面但是據我了解你也不是說負面到那種給人家有一種是很爛的主委但是在這個部分我們大家都知道你就是"},{"start":4018.376,"end":4026.937,"text":"每一次的職務都是代理代理包括甚至已兼的石油公司的董事長"},{"start":4027.867,"end":4056.82,"text":"那既有工會當然我也很熟人家對你的評語也不是像一般報章雜誌對你的這些評語所以我們說實在的我側面所了解報章雜誌在報是另外一種事但是我了解你個人還是處事利落民快的人還有既有這些破例"},{"start":4057.939,"end":4073.161,"text":"還有協調能力極強這是我對你側面所瞭解當然因為未來在整個主委跟立法院這裡的關係當然我們彼此之間要瞭解對方"},{"start":4073.982,"end":4087.81,"text":"那當然報章雜誌說你是購水的主委主委你能不能說一下媒體對你說購水這兩個字你有什麼看法"},{"start":4089.166,"end":4104.199,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想很多報導或猜測都是誤會了都不了解實際上的情形非常謝謝這個委員剛才的一些對我的一些勉勵"},{"start":4108.381,"end":4109.822,"text":"行政院公共工程委員主委"},{"start":4127.803,"end":4153.212,"text":"主委當然這個是一個澄清那未來我們在立法院裡面當然共同為老百姓做事這是立法委員職責也是主委的職責那我在這裡當然我就要回歸政體要請教主委大家都說行政院部會裡面"},{"start":4154.753,"end":4158.538,"text":"就是我們公共工程委員會是一個孤兒單位"},{"start":4160.57,"end":4187.121,"text":"因為你的協調能力極強所以這個定位的問題我非常有興趣每一次都要解散公共工程委員會可是我個人認為公共工程委員會非常重要你不要以為是幕僚單位因為你看全國多少個公共工程的企業都要你們要提供範本"},{"start":4187.941,"end":4215.246,"text":"所以這個單位在本席的認知是非常重要的單位所以能不能代替你這個單位跟行政院要溝通不要一天到晚做成解釋要解散這個單位我個人的看法是不能解散的這個單位是不但要存在還要政府機關要非常去重視他主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":4217.311,"end":4236.19,"text":"的確公共工程委員目前按照公共工程委員組織條例他所擔負的職責是跨部會的協調的工作很多而且在政府採購法裡面他針對公共工程委員的主委這一職指定必須由政府委員兼任"},{"start":4237.111,"end":4253.297,"text":"所以如果公共工程委員會主改變成某一個部會的處那就涉及到這個政府採購法裡面所謂政委來兼的這樣的一個當初的設計啦所以我們認為在目前的政策下我們全力以赴做好"},{"start":4254.137,"end":4268.806,"text":"為國家貢獻了工作。 是啦主委主委我的意思就是說不要一天到晚多說要解散公共工程委員會那在本時的認知裡面不要說實在這是公務人員不然會人心惶惶"},{"start":4270.668,"end":4287.408,"text":"這邊我希望你要跟卓院長啊要去報告這個事實不要一天到晚好像這個單位隨時要被裁測要被歸件這等等這對你們的同仁這對你自己的士氣都不好可是你要那個下請要上打"},{"start":4287.988,"end":4308.545,"text":"讓我們的院長知道這個重要性所以這點我特別要提醒主委另外一個本席非常關心的就是因為我們的合約全國的合約基本的範本我很重視的是勞工薪資的部分"},{"start":4309.906,"end":4334.022,"text":"這個是這個範本裡面我記得吳主委他有答應我你們也有在做也就是勞工薪資的部分這個這個要把它放在強制放在我們全國的標準的範本所以這個部分我相信幕僚人員應該也有跟你報告吳主委很贊同我的看法"},{"start":4334.582,"end":4361.908,"text":"也就是全國換本現在所產生一個新知無法新知無法幾乎就是大包是對政府但是小大包發給小包叫中包中包又發給小包到最後小包是無法拿到這些新知的這個是一個問題那如果主委這裡願意把它當成一個問題"},{"start":4363.388,"end":4390.894,"text":"去做研究把統一規範的這些全國的這些公共工程的合約範本把它放進兩個問題第一薪資的問題我不管你小包大包只要有人檢舉說他領不到薪水那這個部分你大包還是要負責那這個是第一第二如果植栽花生非常之多尤其是公共工程的部分這個部分"},{"start":4394.013,"end":4411.822,"text":"職災的部分非常嚴重那你的報告也有說跟勞動部啊這個勞動部啊職安署這裡有做配合但是我要拜託主委這兩點的部分如果放在全國公共工程的合約換本裡面這對勞工的職安有幫助對勞工的薪資有保障這些東西我相信我們我們主委你是從基層上來"},{"start":4423.348,"end":4438.314,"text":"你最了解這雖然很小的事但是我們公共工程把它做納入合約的換本在內我相信這是對勞工這兩項是有保障主委你的看法"},{"start":4439.532,"end":4439.852,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":4465.819,"end":4478.364,"text":"謝謝林國昌委員的發言接著我們請李坤哲召委發言謝謝主席請一下陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":4485.496,"end":4510.371,"text":"委員長 主委您好 剛才林國成委員也是關注勞工的議題 因為林國成委員過去也是美容美髮業 技術工會專攻聯合會理事長 所以我們跟林國成委員對勞工的安全以及權益 是相當的一個重視 在過去我們也在要求 負責全國公共工程"},{"start":4511.091,"end":4539.193,"text":"以及相關的這樣的一個政府採購的主管機關就是公共工程委員會對於勞工的安全必須要有具體的一個保障所以在過去我們也要求針對政府的公共工程不管是他的公共工程的品質還有勞工的安全的保障相關的查核必須要達到10%以上那相關的進度是不是請陳主委你有了解嗎來說明一下"},{"start":4543.001,"end":4569.162,"text":"工程的查核應該要到10%以上我想工程會針對相關列管的公共工程一直在做查核當然查核他包括剛才委員所指教的是品質進度當然也包括相關的公安的設施這一部分除了工程會去查核之外也會配合勞動部的相關的"},{"start":4570.704,"end":4589.864,"text":"這個公安的檢查啦我們這會配合這個委員的要求提高整個查核的比例那我們要求相關的這些不管是工程的品質還有勞工的安全相關的查核必須啊積材要達到比例百分之十以上那目前的進度有沒有達到來請相關的人來說明一下"},{"start":4592.666,"end":4613.965,"text":"報告委員在112年度查核的比例達到11.68%所以有達到這個必須要逐年的提升我們要求這樣對於工程的品質以及勞工的安全才會有更具體的一個保障那我們看相關的這些在過去我們要求加強對於職安法相關的尤其是第6條有關於"},{"start":4616.658,"end":4617.018,"text":"主管來說明"},{"start":4643.189,"end":4653.561,"text":"這也代表著建樹雖然減少財閥金額越來越高也代表這些公共工程的安全性它的嚴重性是不是也越來越高來說明一下"},{"start":4655.919,"end":4661.541,"text":"主委你看看這三年來三大職災的這些事故的因素跌倒每年平均有3000件"},{"start":4686.021,"end":4714.831,"text":"那被刺被割擦傷啊平均每年都有1900件被捲被夾平均每年啊大概有1500件這若是我們自己的家人喔受了這種這一夜的傷害我想我們一定都很難過所以對勞工的安全我們必須公共工程委員會除了採購除了相關的公共工程的品質要嚴格把關之外對勞工的安全啊公共工程委員會也是必須站在第一線啊"},{"start":4716.712,"end":4726.164,"text":"來嚴格的督促。那我們看到啊,職災死亡的主要因素也包含翻滾掉落或是物體倒崩塌或是被夾捲這些啊"},{"start":4728.459,"end":4728.519,"text":"謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":4751.835,"end":4767.803,"text":"那關於職安的部分除了既有的相關主管機關勞動部他的根據相關法律檢查之外的工程會也去去集合除了過去的這些做法之外我們目前正在研議就是一個公共工程的金職獎的評審目前大概是針對"},{"start":4773.466,"end":4773.926,"text":"公共設施"},{"start":4802.125,"end":4813.587,"text":"主委在過去我要求建立相關的工程履歷可以供外界來查詢那這個相關的建設進度如何來說明一下目前的成效"},{"start":4816.607,"end":4838.317,"text":"向委員報告目前重大職災的部分已經納到工程履歷那我們對於要求提高查核的成效也必須要陸續的來提升跟加強另外我們要建立民眾對於相關工程缺失的通報的一個管道以及處理的機制也請說明一下相關人員說明一下"},{"start":4842.874,"end":4857.335,"text":"報告委員有關這個全民督工的這個部分目前每年的建築大約有一千件然後我們在處理的時效每一件大概兩天而且在這個民眾的滿意度部分也達到八成"},{"start":4858.612,"end":4877.553,"text":"好另外我們對於這個勞工安全之外更要提升我們相關公共工程的一個品質那公共工程的品質就是要提升公共品質的這種公共工程承包業者的這樣一個品質也是我們公共工程委員會一個重要的責任"},{"start":4878.214,"end":4902.442,"text":"那在前任主委吳哲成主委時期的這個工程會有提出一個機制就是評分及格最低標的這樣的一個機制那這個部分其實我們有看到說他要求廠商標案的企劃書就服務建議書必須要先通過機關的審查企劃書的評分總平均分數"},{"start":4903.502,"end":4927.105,"text":"要高於80分的廠商才能參加後續的議價比價那機關從企劃書及格的廠商之中選擇價格最低的廠商來得標他這樣的用意主委你應該清楚他先淘汰一些不良紀錄的廠商淘汰不良紀錄的廠商來改善最低標有些"},{"start":4928.186,"end":4943.347,"text":"不良的廠商要壓低價格不顧品質來搶標這樣的作為希望有具體的改善那我希望是不是能夠將職場的安全衛生這個項目也納入平分的項目來說明一下"},{"start":4944.755,"end":4970.571,"text":"這個部分委員相當重視我們會透過指引或跟各機關來協調希望各機關在辦理公共工程採購的時候在契約裡面在招標過程當中那麼這個服務建議書裡面的審查希望包含它過去的這個一些職災的紀錄或治安的相關但是還有一個問題"},{"start":4971.651,"end":4994.514,"text":"我們看近3年平均及格最低標準所辦理的件數卻是非常的低你看2021年占所有標案的1.6而已2022年占所有標案的1.4那2023年也是占所有標案的1.4左右那執行的成效不好那當然"},{"start":4995.438,"end":5019.307,"text":"他的這樣一個評分及可最低標的執行他有他的困境第一個就是說政府單位對於這個模式還不是很熟悉那還有就是大家所面臨最大的困境還是在於國際趨勢缺工缺料的這個因素政府單位擔心招標困難不去使用你認為有什麼改進的機制嗎"},{"start":5021.546,"end":5040.856,"text":"謝謝委員 我想那個評分及格最低標的決 決標的方式 那麼事實上還有有利標啦 所以目前採用有利標的可能會比較多啦 所以乍看之下 這個最低標的決標方式比較少"},{"start":5042.436,"end":5061.785,"text":"關於這個缺工缺料或是缺能源等等導致這個機關他比較保守會採用比較能夠決標的方式我想藍磷招標的這樣的因素很多除了缺工之外當然整個希望能夠提出"},{"start":5062.005,"end":5062.025,"text":"陳珠緯"},{"start":5096.193,"end":5102.76,"text":"現在請徐富肯委員發言謝謝主席有請我們陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":5113.07,"end":5129.938,"text":"主委,我想最近在立法院一直有提到一個所謂環島高鐵的一個議題我相信過去主委也針對我們宜蘭的高鐵的部分都有一些的討論跟一些的看法"},{"start":5132.859,"end":5149.85,"text":"這個體要達成環島的一個目標沒有先到宜蘭北到宜蘭南部沒有先經過屏東我想也不可能走到東部目前我想我們在2019年我們知道蘇貞昌前院長已經核定了這個高鐵南沿屏東的案子"},{"start":5150.45,"end":5172.137,"text":"那在我們陳建仁前院長在2022年也針對高鐵的特定訊號也做了一些的核定包含我們科學園區的一個計畫我請問針對這個高鐵南延屏東這一塊諸位在是一個行政團隊一個立場上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以來協助我們高鐵進化的南延來屏東謝謝徐委員那這兩個高鐵延伸線"},{"start":5179.009,"end":5207.105,"text":"一覽高鐵他是路線是已經有確定可行性研究算通過那麼他在進行二階環評當中那將來會審查這個綜合規劃那延伸屏東的部分目前路線是未定路線未定那麼速度應該比一覽這一部分稍微慢了一點那估計希望能夠在"},{"start":5208.905,"end":5234.296,"text":"一百一十八年 二零二九年要完一百一十八年來合 合定合定合定是主委這部分我們還是希望能夠能夠協助交通部來儘快處理那另外針對我想我們屏東縣這個因為我們市比較難包那以往常常碰到我們一些重大工程容易因為發包因為工程延宕的問題"},{"start":5235.416,"end":5255.807,"text":"造成這個預算這個處理上的一些問題那尤其我們現在我們貴會新任我們的李一德副主委也是我們以前屏東縣政府的同仁他非常了解屏東的工程的困境那目前針對這部分我想我2月份的時候也曾經請教過我們吳前主委要如何未來要如何協助我們屏東的工程的發包把這個工程量還有發包的"},{"start":5261.61,"end":5269.904,"text":"的一個處理上面能夠協助我們非六都的一個縣市能夠來做一個完善的處理所以請主委來說明我們工程會的角色"},{"start":5277.36,"end":5291.754,"text":"謝謝徐委員的指教關於委員所提的屏東的相關工程他的發包或招標或預算等等若干問題我想會後我們請同仁通案那麼來研究那麼來協調"},{"start":5293.885,"end":5322.698,"text":"好,主委這要特別請你到三天了因為畢竟我們也是希望我們所有的工程好不容易要到經費能夠讓工程能夠順利的發包順利的一天順利來完工那另外我們除了工程這個屏東的工程淫浪之後我想包含我們現在目前很多的公務機關還有民間的一些工程都碰到工程缺工的問題那之前一直有提到所謂印度移工要來彌補這個勞力缺口的這個"},{"start":5329.482,"end":5344.791,"text":"國家中大建設尤其是公共工程那麼他的移工的引進當然主管機關是勞動部不過針對個案那麼他如果這個有請求希望移工的話那麼工程會會協助來"},{"start":5347.072,"end":5366.628,"text":"來做這個抱怨來協助能夠解決合定之後勞動部當然就可以來配合這個個案來引進移工至於是否印度移工我想勞動部會做整體的考量所以主委是贊成這個透過外籍勞工的部分來彌補我們的缺口"},{"start":5367.472,"end":5372.379,"text":"另外我再請教針對內政部曾經發布一個新聞稿呼籲我們的建築業者不要以碳費徵收的理由來哄抬房價"},{"start":5382.432,"end":5402.483,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":5403.83,"end":5423.54,"text":"謝謝委員,據我所了解,碳費的開徵還在研議,原本計畫是從明年度後年開始來申報徵收對象大概是比較大戶,排放大戶,比方說電力業者、石化業者、燃煤或燃油"},{"start":5424.74,"end":5452.122,"text":"這些大戶來初步做做這個碳灰的徵收不過這一部分因為整個政策國外會還在研究當中至於銀監的應該不是列為第一波這個徵收碳灰的對象不過因為在生產過程當中比如說像若干材料會因為他本身就是被徵收的碳灰的大戶那這些公司他是不是透過"},{"start":5453.704,"end":5467.837,"text":"檢排或者是探交易的方式來降低他的探這個排探或者是去購買探權等等他有很多種方式那這部分我想國會會整體的考量"},{"start":5469.142,"end":5493.3,"text":"主委那最後一個問題我想請教就是因為課徵碳稅除了一個這個問題之外還有一個就是我們要了解說一個碳排放的一個過程那目前我們工程會有協助重大工程進行所謂一個碳盤查的一個作為但是大家這樣想我們都要想辦法那目前我們國內的這個技術還不夠成熟那工程會那這部分是不是有原因要怎麼樣來降低成本"},{"start":5495.013,"end":5512.271,"text":"謝謝委員那麼報載的這部分我還在瞭解當中那麼這個還不是確定的執行的還沒做執行的確定我會進一步來瞭解那麼做相關的討論跟調整之後會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":5513.608,"end":5534.285,"text":"謝謝主委,我想主委也是新官上任,那面對未來我們新內閣跟這個立法院的這個互動關係,你會比較辛苦的啦,我想工程會也肩負我們行政部門很重要的一個部會的一個角色,尤其我們未來很多的一些重大建設跟工程會都息息相關,我想請主委及團隊,大家作為來拍邊,謝謝。"},{"start":5539.403,"end":5560.008,"text":"徐屋奎委員發言完畢現在請盧明哲委員先做以下的宣告本日委員由委員提出臨時提案依照本會王力在登記質詢本會委員發言告於段落後處理那我們將與蔡吉昌委員巡打完畢之後隨即處理臨時提案現在請盧明哲委員發言"},{"start":5566.84,"end":5571.744,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們工程會我們陳主委陳主委好這個其實第一次在工作上見面那當然我對你個人來講也許你也不太認識我但我也跟你不太熟悉啦但對一個工作表現在這個位置表現我們當然是對你有很多的一個期待"},{"start":5593.36,"end":5605.49,"text":"我們看到我們事實上工作人會我們組織條例第一條第二條其實開宗明義的規定未來你最主要的帶領這個團隊主要的工作對所有的公共工程從規劃審議協調督導"},{"start":5608.993,"end":5610.314,"text":"﹚公共工程委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5631.808,"end":5656.947,"text":"這個公共工程的爭議我覺得實在是真的量體是非常非常的大而且複雜性複雜性有時候協調了五次八次不見得有結果所以你希望能夠提升調解事件的處理效率跟減少契約很多人至於契約嘛那你對於這個工作你大概已經能夠過去的經驗都了解還是要花點時間才能夠上手"},{"start":5660.28,"end":5684.335,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想這個禮樂爭議那麼它除了申訴啦或者是申請調解或者是仲裁還有民事訴訟那麼公共工程委員會的這個禮樂爭議的協調我們希望調解所以希望能夠在調解當中就達成那如果調解當中達成就免去這個做訴訟的這樣的一個很冗長的過程"},{"start":5686.789,"end":5702.623,"text":"那調解的過程希望他時間來說短那目前因為調解因為公共工程委員畢竟還是中央機關所以他對一個調解建立的提出啊那過程也必須保持一定的嚴謹跟有所依據"},{"start":5703.564,"end":5727.043,"text":"所以目前調解的整個時間是很長沒有錯大概都將近一年以上八個月以上那這裡面有一些程序上的問題還有人力不足的問題我們正在做檢討那我們希望第一個達到調解的時間縮短比方說半年內能夠提出這個調解建議那麼再來就是說"},{"start":5728.024,"end":5746.416,"text":"我們希望呢 那麼調解出來的建議啊假以雙方能夠迅速能夠接受那麼再者就尋求民間仲裁那這樣子的話整個里約爭議的解決不會拖拖到305年我當然希望這個期待是更有效率的大家都說人對的事情就對了"},{"start":5747.456,"end":5770.823,"text":"我們在工程會工作量這麼大而且非常的專業我們希望不光是新的政府團隊希望你在這個工作崗位上是問題解決者不是麻煩製造者我也覺得人到底對不對我對你的第一項當然來自報章媒體但是我對你未來的表現是從今天開始"},{"start":5772.183,"end":5798.04,"text":"我們知道在報章雜誌我們看到我們不希望你是一個travel maker我們是希望你是一個問題解決者但是有些問題我要釐清報章媒體看到你的過去你的歷練其實算是非常的豐富但是產生了一個爭議我也覺得是蠻精彩的但是觀看事件的本身我覺得那是一件事那到底發生的原因是什麼我也不見得了解"},{"start":5798.92,"end":5824.141,"text":"可是我要去看你發生了一個爭議事件所有的民意代表所有的政府機關所有的企業界當發生了一件假設負面的一個事件的時候90%的單位都想辦法減輕這個問題想辦法誠懇說明可是我看到你這幾件事我覺得你是一個很有趣的人你是當發生了負面的一些問題爭議的時候你會啟動"},{"start":5827.103,"end":5846.779,"text":"自動擴大模式 這不簡單自爆加碼模式我覺得哇 這不簡單耶因為一半都會躲起來喔躲一個月 新聞媒體不追就算了你可以在三天以內 自動把這個洞挖大我覺得怎麼會這樣的這個個性 我是覺得非常非常有趣我們看到在2017年2017年"},{"start":5849.401,"end":5873.416,"text":"中郵董事長當時815大停電事件 過程大家都知道就不講了 結果因為你離開了董事長的位置 結果你在兩天之後 你上電視節目說自己加入民進黨30年了 我老鳥了 這種政治鬥爭的林北看多了"},{"start":5875.013,"end":5903.864,"text":"其實我看到這個對我來講反對的你們家是紀律到可是我這句很奇怪齁你能不能做一個主管的時候當你員工的處長你要調動他因為他裡面一些事情的時候你的處長或你的科長你的組長他說董事這個主委我加入工程會20年了啦這種內部的人事生天動罪鬥爭你被看多了哎喲"},{"start":5905.222,"end":5908.124,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5924.153,"end":5940.294,"text":"通過彈劾啦這個坦白講監察案彈劾應該算一般民間算是蠻慎重嚴重就認錯就算了可是你怎麼回答勒你怎麼回答我覺得你這回答不好我希望你變了一個人啦你的回答是說"},{"start":5941.255,"end":5960.497,"text":"考試院調查兼職人員情況全台類似情況有一千多人又不是我陳金德藝人為什麼只針對我藝人提督產核這個監委的針對性昭然若揭因為你要做一個公務人員如果你是個人我根本不跟你講這一條個人可以隨便講的"},{"start":5962.279,"end":5982.799,"text":"因為你要帶領全國的工程單位你在事前你很多的法規規約人家都以你做一個指標事中的一個爭議然後事後要怎麼處理我真的好怕你知道嗎好怕你在處理一個爭議的時候用另外一個廠商來講林北跟你講"},{"start":5983.86,"end":5995.584,"text":"全台向我類似工程遇到這樣問題的有一千多件你為什麼主委針對我一人我不知道你怎麼回答我又看到你代理宜蘭縣縣長"},{"start":5998.134,"end":6004.38,"text":"時間沒有很長我覺得這個是真的很離譜剛剛是你說個性的問題我就是這樣我不服輸這個問題你對法規的見解對法規的預測已經跟民進黨執政的中央的農委會已經完全不一樣了甚至從今天來看一個農地它是糧田你本來的建築物蓋在中間因為現在早就變成機具在耕作的時來時往"},{"start":6024.838,"end":6041.383,"text":"本來就是要臨旁邊 你在那邊當時說的話真的很可怕欸 你說 豪華農舍蓋在林北的田中央啦 我的沃土是人民的自由啦陳金仲當時怎麼跟你回答 農舍蓋在中央一定影響農業環境"},{"start":6045.392,"end":6066.021,"text":"這種種的一個爭議包括後面違建處理這個部分我不知道你還是不是當時說這些話的陳金德如果是的話我不知道你怎麼在這個團體因為你覺得違法違規對你來講你的想法你可以很容易去挑戰可是行政院公共工程委員會尤其前主委"},{"start":6067.081,"end":6082.532,"text":"吳主委一切說一算一一切依法規定我是不是建議我看到這些是不是讓你回應一下過去這些到底有沒有改變對於依法行政你對自己有沒有信心"},{"start":6084.619,"end":6106.388,"text":"雖然時間已經超過一分多鐘但是陳志偉還是必須對盧委員的提問來做出說明也給你時間做說明謝謝盧委員的提點的確是個人在處理做幹問題上面有所需要檢討的地方我個人也這10年來也深刻在檢討"},{"start":6108.086,"end":6132.794,"text":"那關於依法行政我們的心目中只有依法行政這條路公務人員必須依法行政針對人民的權利義務相關問題所以宜蘭的龍舍我就是依法行政以上根如委員報告好那也因為時間的關係謝謝盧明哲委員的發言那現在請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":6144.12,"end":6169.377,"text":"主席請陳主委請陳主委蔡委員早主委早今天就叫主委這幾年因為原物料上漲人力短缺的問題所以我看檢像發包的問題是越來越嚴重"},{"start":6173.615,"end":6193.709,"text":"那以本席臺中來講我看這個新聞報導也報導了嘛原物料上漲市府檢向發包成為常態那這個臺北市啊這個漁果市場啊這個前科市長檢向發包也在議會裡面也被批評"},{"start":6195.114,"end":6214.891,"text":"那檢象發報本席一直覺得如果我們面臨的是原物料波動的當年度也就是說我們已經預算編列好了但是今年這一整年當中原物料大漲但是原物料大漲一定在一個期間內就簡單講說原物料"},{"start":6217.93,"end":6246.823,"text":"的波動在一年的時間內漲幅到一個滿足的程度接著他就進入了盤整的狀態他不會連續好幾年他都是一路這個噴出啊原物料上漲不可能嘛可是呢我發現這個減項發包啊並不是在原物料噴漲的那一年那一個時間點出現預算年度出現問題而是現在看起來就是越來越嚴重"},{"start":6248.595,"end":6268.691,"text":"本席長期在幫忙孩子爭取教育相關的設施從校舍、禮堂、操場等等本席為我們台中的孩子在爭取這些事情那我以台中市政府來舉例就好看這個檢像發包的問題有多嚴重"},{"start":6271.636,"end":6298.986,"text":"早期我們面對檢像發包啊 廠廠是什麼是整個建築物的主結構完全蓋好那檢什麼 檢裡面的客桌椅也就是說 整個環境要蓋幾樓都蓋好了那裡面這個學生用的客桌椅啦 這個可移動式的這些擺件最後我們再來爭取相關內部設備"},{"start":6301.735,"end":6322.258,"text":"那現在呢已經改什麼沒有這樣改本席最近去看了一個工程那個我們大甲國中的那個也是我們去爭取大甲國中的案子很簡單大甲國中的案子呢他是一個原來的手球的手球館可是呢政府現在已經沒有手球館所以政府就學校裡面叫活動中心"},{"start":6323.052,"end":6341.994,"text":"台中市政府依規定活動中心多少學生活動中心的面積就是多大所以呢市政府的教育局他就編列給你這個活動中心的預算可是要蓋手原來學生在大甲國中手球隊非常有名是我們手球的這個這個搖籃"},{"start":6344.276,"end":6370.811,"text":"結果呢他這個空間就太小他必須要在既有市政府補助的活動中心的範圍把它擴大才能打手球所以呢我們就協調體育署哇這個公文往往來來往往再加上協調會不必整年啦這好不容易跟手球館跟活動中心透過中央體育署國教署台中市教育局合而為一"},{"start":6371.687,"end":6390.985,"text":"好了本市搞了一年認為這件事已經處理完結果臺中市政府發包他發包完之後學校又來陳情了為什麼因為他只發包活動中心的主結構只有起碼什麼叫起碼譬如說沒門發包項目裡面沒門"},{"start":6400.402,"end":6415.583,"text":"我只好把體育署、國教署、臺中市教育局再找來協調,說現在起地要好了,沒問題怎麼辦?體育署就回答本席說,報告委員,我們體育署只補助體育設施,沒有再補助門的。"},{"start":6419.233,"end":6438.067,"text":"沒有那麼多保門嘛 所以我們去足球館的時候 去手球館的時候如果一開始發包的時候 那有可能手球館沒門 所以放在手球館這個建築興建的時候門沒問題啦但是你先把村內的地方蓋好 現在要來建出門 他說門不是體育設施"},{"start":6442.285,"end":6471.296,"text":"我不是罵體育署啦我只是在講說體育署沒有錯啊他在以他的預算科目來講這時候你只要做問這哪有體育設施但是他是手球館啊所以呢本時只好再請教育部潘部長出面來協調說好那這間市政府你要出多少中央的體育署跟國教署你要分別出多少啊這條集在預算科目裡面想可以出我只是舉這個例子給主委聽啦這個就是減相發包的結果"},{"start":6473.047,"end":6487.12,"text":"臺中市政府的檢像發包我看這個市議會講已經變成了常態啦好我再講一個順天那是什麼現在的活動中心也可以檢像發包到什麼程度市面圍牆蓋起來沒有屋頂這樣也可以發包就是"},{"start":6492.762,"end":6508.572,"text":"突然先把圍牆 這也是本席去偷的 去中央政策部部長 台中市政府 連有市面牆壁蓋了 發包出去 校長來跟我說 委員拜託第二天來政策處定 這樣也可以檢証發包 後來空一條就行了 我要做什麼 我就先把那條先空起來 台北市也是這樣被市議會批評啊"},{"start":6523.035,"end":6552.75,"text":"他把樓層要蓋八樓的其中減項八包減掉幾項之後樓層讓他下降這是定案嗎?不是定案未來蓋好之後他可能要再蓋起來你不能不讓他蓋啊在監督上面就會有問題啦就是說以後呢他先把一根柱子蓋好了你不給他補柱你不給他補柱他就變成蚊子管嘛變成蚊子柱子"},{"start":6553.507,"end":6556.669,"text":"主委本席也做了一個臨時提案希望工程會好好地來管理你的看法呢"},{"start":6585.055,"end":6598.649,"text":"謝謝蔡委員的確是原物料的調整有物調的機制那也可以透過計畫修正的方式來解決那麼比較不鼓勵透過檢像發包來處理"},{"start":6601.252,"end":6628.202,"text":"那檢象發包機關他仍然有核定者有核定的需要核定決定這樣檢象發包的機制那如果這檢象發包把你原來的功能已經不在了那個已經是要透過修正計畫採取而不是檢象了所以我們非常佩服蔡委員的這個高見那我們會全力來改善這樣的一個整個在其他機關發包過程中所產生的問題"},{"start":6629.102,"end":6657.201,"text":"OK 主要要慣例啦 這沒慣例不知道 這個亂象重生啦 這個已經到發包運用到這個程度 那以後縣市首長可不可以在卸任之前他就把所有重大工程都發包出去 然後每一樣都剪相發包 反正下一任不是他嘛 他就叫後一任出來負責就好了 他每天都去 都自己發包出去 你如果後輩沒得接 他就說你看你很無能 我就已經起碰了 你後一任的市長你看我無能"},{"start":6658.208,"end":6659.929,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6673.817,"end":6689.543,"text":"很多事情沒有辦法啦因為你隨著不一定是不一定是原物料上漲也不一定是這個這個缺工的問題他可能面臨檢像發包本期不是說檢像發包但是檢像發包不可以像台灣現在已經腐爛氾濫到這個程度"},{"start":6691.184,"end":6705.674,"text":"所以我希望工程會能夠好好的來管理跟監督一下所有中央政府跟地方政府的工程謝謝蔡委員發言完畢我們現在要先處理臨時提案本日既有一案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":6709.396,"end":6737.652,"text":"臨時提案一愈來愈多機關以剪相發包的方式辦理工程採購但卻常剪掉主要功能鑒於剪相發包嚴重影響工程品質非常太的追加預算一身弊端且更造成公共建設延擋原此建請公共工程委員會應將剪相發包納入列管瞭解各機關剪相發包原因並提供因應對策避免剪相發包情況過於腐爛提案人委員蔡其昌等宣讀完畢"},{"start":6738.212,"end":6763.811,"text":"先請工程會做說明謝謝委員提案的指正工程會建議把倒數第三行將檢像發包納入列管逗點這幾個字刪除建議的理由是因為在實務執行上招標機關有採購效率還有採購決定等等但是工程會一定會去了解各機關發包檢像的原因還有提供因應對稱"},{"start":6765.591,"end":6791.3,"text":"那個主席不要列管可以啦但是就是說要盤點就是說應檢向將公共工程委員會將檢向發包進行全面盤點然後瞭解各機關檢發包的原因這樣你這懂我意思嗎盤點你想不想也要盤點不然問你本來是要問讀到本來要問主委看到底全台灣現在檢向發包各縣市政府的比例啦但是我想應該不知道啦"},{"start":6792.851,"end":6820.472,"text":"所以我主動沒問他但是我有一次就要問啊所以你要先盤點出來啊是好不好因為主委先上任嘛本是總是要客氣一點對吧所以這一題先不問但是你要先盤點好那依照蔡委員的文字修訂有沒有問題報告沒有好那我們就照蔡委員的修正來修正通過"},{"start":6822.426,"end":6848.658,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢．如果委員對上述提案補簽．列入記錄並刊登公報繼續請何欣淳委員發言在何欣淳委員發言之前先做一下宣告我們在許智傑委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘好謝謝今天主席李坤哲召委我們請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":6856.025,"end":6875.981,"text":"何委員長主委好首先先恭喜但是這個公共工程委員會看起來不大不小但是很重要責任很大比如說剛剛蔡其山委員要您去盤點各地方政府的這個公共工程的檢像發包的一個狀況這個卻看起來是小事好像也不管重要事但是卻是"},{"start":6881.806,"end":6881.966,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":6902.131,"end":6915.45,"text":"所以在前一任吳主委的時候我就諮詢過他他也承諾他立場堅定態度說公共工程要淨零碳排這是一定要做的世界趨勢台灣要跟得上主委你認為呢"},{"start":6917.778,"end":6935.77,"text":"謝謝委員指教的確是近年排放是我們國家2050要達成的目標那這個2050要達成的目標各界相關碳排的措施都要做那公共工程站的碳排大概初步的資料將近9%至10%之多"},{"start":6939.552,"end":6955.032,"text":"所以當然要盡各種努力在所有的環節來進行淨零那主委我特別提到為什麼公共工程委員會剛剛一開始說說大不大說小不小但很重要因為如果我們要做公共工程的淨零碳排那公共工程很多的是"},{"start":6957.173,"end":6981.099,"text":"養旺我們的這個公共工程委員會呢是不是能夠就大大小小中央地方的各項的公共工程如果我們帶頭進行碳排要減碳那你要給予什麼樣的一個一個政策目標第二個我們的工具指引工具再來呢我們相關的法規制度如何能夠呢帶領大大小小的中央地方的各項公共工程進行減碳"},{"start":6982.179,"end":7002.53,"text":"所以我接下來就要問因為上一次吳主委跟我說有我們要做而且我們要帶頭做所以相關的有關鋼筋水泥業者打頭陣公共工程檢探新規明年上路這個是當時候在媒體上吳主委的任內裡面所發布的"},{"start":7004.691,"end":7023.195,"text":"所以我是要讓新任的我們陳主委知道鋼筋水泥業者打頭陣公共工程檢探新規明年要上路那我現在今年上路了我要跟主委說是什麼今年上路了很抱歉叫做什麼業者自我宣告"},{"start":7025.123,"end":7043.431,"text":"這第一個你們認為的新規第二個是說我公共工程有一個叫做精子獎所以我有把這個低碳減碳納入這個加分的項目如果你這個分數得得好的話得得高的話那你可以得到這個公共工程精子獎那我就要凸顯兩個問題主委如果我們要帶頭做如果沒有規範那如何能夠逐步做得到"},{"start":7051.428,"end":7069.702,"text":"因為呢第一個這個叫做業者自我宣告等於沒有強制性也沒有時程表所謂的時程表就是說每一個階段該做到什麼樣的程度那引領產業界引領了我們各項的大大小小的公共工程他的業者呢"},{"start":7070.402,"end":7098.874,"text":"不管是這個從設計規劃到後來施工我們該如何的根據公共工程委員會的指引逐步的推動分階段的進階的來落實第一個我們現在叫做業者的自我宣告沒有強制性沒有時程沒有任何階段的一個指引公布這第一個第二個金資獎加分項目你說這個叫加分啊他如果有做好吧這個我勉強說他是鼓勵措施好了"},{"start":7099.844,"end":7125.903,"text":"但是呢這個鼓勵措施裡面在這個加分項目裡面那客觀的評鑑基準又是什麼因為就我所知你們金子講的這個所謂的這個評審評鑑都是依據你們的專家學者啊專家學者每一次來看的到底他的這個客觀的評鑑基準OK不OK我們公共工程有沒有給予指引或者相關的一個基準"},{"start":7128.41,"end":7141.244,"text":"沒有看到下面的在搖頭搖手了有沒有沒有不是喔好那請主委好好去了解一下細節喔好我就分這兩項那今我要跟主委講規範"},{"start":7144.099,"end":7165.436,"text":"前一任的吳主委說這是我上一次的質詢喔前一任的吳主委說好我們的未來要推動強制性的公共工程採購的碳排要規劃要制度化那未來朝向要強制化可是主委你知道嗎現在這是你的最大挑戰了"},{"start":7169.386,"end":7182.873,"text":"因為本來吳主委跟我講這件事情要吳鳳接軌給你但是我相信你一點都不知道吳主委說要你現在回去問一下你所有公共工程委員會的幕僚到底有沒有電子絕標系統要新增一個檢探欄位到底有沒有現在沒有現在沒有那呢"},{"start":7197.537,"end":7213.999,"text":"當時候答應我的吳主委現在走人了業副主任委員哲良也走人了那陳書偉那你在你任上這個公共工程的採購的要納入碳排的這樣子的一個規劃到底要不要"},{"start":7217.585,"end":7218.066,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":7247.966,"end":7249.307,"text":"公共工程委員會"},{"start":7262.481,"end":7276.523,"text":"是不是有做到撿牌的設計或撿牌的若干或者是說吸收碳的這樣的能夠更進一步淨零的這樣的工法或者是作為在基本設計的時候是可以把關的"},{"start":7277.585,"end":7301.837,"text":"是主委我現在就要跟你探討這件事情你有講出這樣子的一個概念很好表示你支持但是問題是公共工程委員會到目前為止我沒有看到一個完整的一個規劃從初級終極到進階哪一個階段階段性的第一個要達到什麼樣的目標第二個我們階段性的法規制度的設計或者是如何推動產業"},{"start":7303.755,"end":7324.088,"text":"若使在各項的大大小小的公共工程裡面我們公共委員會的態度跟現在進行規劃的進度在哪裡第一個我看不到第三個我們的目標既然我們國家已經宣誓了但公共工程委員會有沒有短中長期的一個建立我現在跟你講喔雖然我時間不夠了你剛剛講到碳排資料庫碳排資料庫你們到目前為止跟我講5月中事辦你知道嗎"},{"start":7333.595,"end":7348.936,"text":"到現在也許我也不能苛責你但是只有4家登錄而且你們這個資料庫說6月要上路你們現在是說業者自動來登錄就好結果到目前為止只有4家"},{"start":7350.282,"end":7350.422,"text":"好謝謝好 主委"},{"start":7380.52,"end":7383.322,"text":"現在請許智傑委員發言許委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":7419.467,"end":7447.239,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主委 請陳主委委員長 主委好老朋友記名 那個漁師是老朋友 漁工還是要要求那個之前齁 那個跟主委報告 之前有我們一直在做的事 我想這個是我一直追蹤蠻重要的事 所以要讓主委知道一下"},{"start":7448.817,"end":7476.05,"text":"那就是近年來我們在推動最有利標這個方向不要用低價搶標去破壞那個品質那最有利標呢我想每個人穿衣服啦買房子啦都是用自己的最有利標嘛所以對我們工程來講應該也是用最有利標最好那之前我一直要求工程會就是最有利標的時候"},{"start":7477.456,"end":7497.025,"text":"如果真的有一些爭議或有一些疑慮或有一些擔心就把政風跟主計麻煩他們辛苦一點跟我們一起來那一來呢我們很清楚我們趕緊政風主計來就是心裡沒有問題二來呢如果你真的沒有問題政風跟主計來也是保護你的一個好的方式"},{"start":7498.138,"end":7520.797,"text":"所以最近這幾年來我們工程會在工部門的招標正風跟阻劑加入的比例其實都有逐漸在增加那當然穩定了之後如果會減少一點點也無所謂啦那我的意思就是說正風跟阻劑他不是我們的敵人他是保護我們的"},{"start":7521.998,"end":7545.887,"text":"所以這個部分如果工程會繼續來推你可以看到主委我這個數據你可以參考這是這幾年來決票的件數其實都在增加當中去年有一點減少是因為最低本來是10萬10萬變成15萬所以這個在數量上有少一點事實上也是增加的那我們看它的比例也一直在每一年歷年都在增加當中"},{"start":7546.847,"end":7556.921,"text":"所以也就是說我們推動國家這個重大的政策做有力標那加入政府跟主席的協助我們的確讓公共工程的品質可以更好"},{"start":7558.175,"end":7582.841,"text":"所以這個部分讓主委瞭解一下我是希望說特別跟您提醒這個從以前吳宏謀主委的時候我就在推到後來的吳哲成主委那我是覺得這幾年來看起來有成效出來所以我會繼續在追蹤也希望說主委這個政策讓您有個瞭解那也希望說我們工程會的同仁這個好的政策能夠繼續推動下去"},{"start":7583.941,"end":7608.193,"text":"不用怕鄭豐跟祖記啦鄭豐祖記是我們的好朋友他可以幫我們很多忙好那第二件事情就是之前在缺工的方面呢我們一直在講說那個我們其實台灣有很多年輕人體力能力都夠但是他可能不太喜歡去當"},{"start":7609.875,"end":7622.418,"text":"做這個比較粗工沒有辦法在市場那麼漂亮所以他們有答應說比較不要去做比如說你在工地做那個幫忙或是拔鐵的有可能一工差不多兩千至三千一工可以賺七萬至九萬但是他們去餐廳做服務業有可能賺兩萬多"},{"start":7639.008,"end":7655.207,"text":"但現在年輕人去感恩去賺兩萬他可能要叫他去做這個他不愛做所以呢在之前我不知道現在主委可以關心一下你們內部有沒有做這樣子的規劃因為在之前我也要求過就是說我們工程會每年都有金子獎的頒獎嘛"},{"start":7656.688,"end":7680.283,"text":"有一些項目的改變有更好的點子我們可以再加入評審的項目所以我之前在前主委的時代我也跟他們要求說是不是有可能我們來鼓勵讓他做這個基礎工業基礎的營造工人事實上讓他增加他的榮譽感我們來給他頒獎比如說他做了訂房模訂了很好的我們找一個職人精神我們來給他頒獎叫做最佳藍模"},{"start":7686.742,"end":7687.765,"text":"阿比說他白天還在外面打電話在這個領域很突出我們就給他頒獎叫最佳藍鐵"},{"start":7695.322,"end":7723.248,"text":"這樣 其實 給這個基礎的 無關是正宗沒的 白天的 休餐的 還有這種基礎的考慮 我們鼓勵年輕人出來 讓他們有一致之常 讓他們有職人精神 讓他們有一個容易感這樣 其實有可能在我們缺工的問題 可以幫我們解決一些 那這個部分 我不知道 我們有沒有人可以簡單的報告目前工程會進度到哪裡"},{"start":7724.817,"end":7752.076,"text":"謝謝委員指教關於工班職人獎納入這個工程金職獎的部分已經在實施了會整個會我們把整個金職獎的頒授會整體的再來考量來修正除了這個工班職人獎之外包括整個職安在施工過程的職安也都會納入考量這個是已經在"},{"start":7752.656,"end":7779.141,"text":"我是特地跟主委報告希望能夠再把它規劃得更好把這個職人精神把我們基礎的缺工的問題其實可以多少做一些改善那第三個呢其實昨天我在聽國民黨在提到他們對那個工程國家都很有意見那現在我們工程會來協助做工程國家會目前的狀況主委不知道有沒有了解"},{"start":7780.734,"end":7796.031,"text":"就是各個領域的工程國家對那國家做的方向是如何?這一部分給委員報告因為如果說到外國去承攬其他國家的工程就組國家隊去承攬"},{"start":7798.928,"end":7813.003,"text":"外國的標的事實上都是金額非常龐大目前我們說能夠組國家隊去承攬的成果事實上還是不多不過這個工程會"},{"start":7814.184,"end":7839.838,"text":"已經有在努力包括在各地駐點然後尋求商機或其他的這個資訊提供給國內的相關的產商主委這個時間不多我再跟主委強調一下我會繼續追蹤的項目前面兩項之後這一項我會繼續追蹤那你可以看到我們以前的計畫就是說今年度合訂九件拓展計畫補助大概一千多萬其實算是很少"},{"start":7840.939,"end":7861.034,"text":"那當然就是說我看那個在野黨他們在批評我們所有的國家隊的角度都覺得說你是圖利用那個角度其實看是非常的不好那對我們國家隊的推動其實是不利的那我舉這個例子讓主委參考就是說在文化部當時我在教委會的時候有建議文化部可以成立一個文策院"},{"start":7862.271,"end":7869.676,"text":"他是一個投資性質,不只是補助性質。比如說我文化部我準備兩百億去補助電影、電視、節目等等的安排。我補下去後呢,我去選好賣選,選選的呢,因為就錢一直補出去,你補到好補到壞,到最後都不用付錢,因為他就是補嘛。"},{"start":7883.394,"end":7899.759,"text":"這叫精神評審制嘛 評審制又沒有一個方向不是說沒有一個方向 他們所謂的評審的標準嘛但是補出去他就一直越補越少 後來我給他們一個概念參考就是說你用投資的概念不只是補助的概念我這報出來之後 我感覺說這組電視它有可能會嘆息"},{"start":7903.24,"end":7931.022,"text":"我補多少給你補阿其他要看要怎麼分配阿至少我這個基金200億基金我搞不好補了5年之後我變成300億也不一定我可以補助更多幫助更多的欸這個要拍電影阿那用這個概念說如果我們的國家隊也有這個概念我是先這樣子提出來請主委跟我們部門部會底下的人再做一下去研商阿我這不是只有補助而已阿補助你不會說你質疑說我圖利阿我沒圖利阿我"},{"start":7931.522,"end":7932.923,"text":"徐委員發言完畢 我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8633.104,"end":8647.423,"text":"繼續開會現在請邱若驊委員發言主席好主席有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":8655.849,"end":8677.575,"text":"委員長主委好主委我們首先來看到就是面臨物料上漲缺工缺料已經影響到工程公共工程的流標那也因為預算不足的關係還有按量集中那近年來流標的情形影響到了工程進度那這個問題也不是這幾年才有的那前主委"},{"start":8678.895,"end":8687.043,"text":"吳哲成主委也就有表示過這是必須要去面對的問題那在交接以及部長您上任之後有沒有提出具體的解決辦法"},{"start":8690.883,"end":8709.998,"text":"我想這個缺工缺大問題工程會一直在協助相關的機關辦理公共工程那吳主委任內有很多的規劃跟政策也非常的具體跟有效所以基本上會循著過去所做的這樣子來協助各機關來做"},{"start":8711.059,"end":8726.183,"text":"所以目前的做法是沿用那像一些民間的專家學者都有想到一些辦法像是針對缺工就有提出就是研究工法的改變那還有引入自動化的設備那為什麼我們政府沒有提出其他相關的因應辦法"},{"start":8729.901,"end":8758.204,"text":"自動化社會當然也鼓勵各機關或各相關單位去設計啦那麼營建業或者是相關的研究機關那這方面應該是比較專業啦我們鼓勵當然鼓勵透過自動化來減少這個人工嘛那不過缺工的問題另外一個機制就是引進移工啦那工程會會協助這個辦理機關啦向行政院來請求來核定"},{"start":8759.085,"end":8769.18,"text":"那這個專案來核定移工那跟勞動部來合作那勞動部基本上審查之後會同意增加移工的部分"},{"start":8769.79,"end":8796.432,"text":"OK好那本席是來自桃園的委員那目前我們地方有很多重大的工程都在推動中那民眾期盼的地方發展還有所需要的交通建設如果政府不能提出缺工缺料的方案讓工程如期如值的完工那承受的是民眾每天都在承受不方便那在這邊那主委您知道如果交通工程不能順利完成會衝擊到哪些嗎衝擊到哪些產業的發展嗎"},{"start":8800.868,"end":8815.736,"text":"交通工程最主要是這個人的這個能夠到達這個目的地的這個時間嘛那我想對金融企業就是我們討論目前有一個逃逐苗大矽谷計畫"},{"start":8818.206,"end":8839.216,"text":"主委您知道這個計劃嗎?桃树苗大細股計劃大概相關產業的聚落產業的聚落那這邊我跟主委說明那觀光物流科技汽車還有農產品的運銷運銷都會衝擊到都會影響到所以請主委還有我們公共工程會要重視這個問題"},{"start":8841.55,"end":8867.973,"text":"那在工程會的報告第7也有提到歸納流標的原因還有提出因應的作為那也宣稱近年近年兩次內的招標率有提升可是立法院去年10月有提出113預算評估報告指出這兩年為決標的工程採購案件流標流廢標的情形是递增的主委有掌握到這個情形嗎"},{"start":8870.541,"end":8871.025,"text":"相關主幹來說明"},{"start":8874.864,"end":8875.104,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":8905.078,"end":8920.027,"text":"主委工程會是31個部會中唯一的標記尚未改組的單位那歷年公共工程金費約7000億元主委能維護工程會必須具備極高專業還有統合能力以及完善的採購流程嗎我想這個關於"},{"start":8927.834,"end":8951.448,"text":"工程會的任務在工程會組織條例裡面已經相當清楚了對各部會可以協調相關列管的公共工程我想我很珍惜我這個工作我會跟我的團隊全力來達成法規所賦予的責任跟全力來完成相關的公共建設"},{"start":8953.809,"end":8978.242,"text":"是因為最重要的功能是要依公平還有公開的政府採購程序那採購的效率還有功能以確保採購的品質我要以今年4月為例公共工程委員會這邊有被踢爆的警問背心瑕疵的採購案警政組雖然有解釋招標程序都符合規定但是採購品質不佳是事實恐怕會造成危害員警的安全那工程會這邊有沒有去檢討過去的採購法還有流程"},{"start":8981.701,"end":9009.433,"text":"各位我請相關主管來說明跟委員報告有關於防彈衣的採購這個部分那因為委員去年之前有指導所以我們有發文給那個防彈衣的採購機關從源頭的招決標的策略還有旅業管理包括要用樣本的方式去做確認旅業品質這些等等我們有一套機制給各機關去處理"},{"start":9011.107,"end":9038.412,"text":"那有沒有檢討招標審核過程中有問題呢?報告這個就是我們因為原來是用最低標所以我們建議他用最有利標然後讓他選好的廠商那這後續的責任還有歸屬怎麼去做審核跟檢討?後續的責任因為這個是招標機關和招標機關的上級他們會去檢討他們的責任那我們主要是避免以後再發生這種事情"},{"start":9038.933,"end":9038.973,"text":"請陳主委"},{"start":9074.25,"end":9100.513,"text":"委員長主委長主委你是立院的前輩也是台大的學長但是在這裡還是要特別針對工程會相關業務的事情因為那時候我領之後大家也忙所以我們還沒有碰過面那也都知道你們過去的許多豐富的經歷那我先延續著剛才秋洛華委員所提到的主改的部分因為這是一個核心的問題"},{"start":9101.454,"end":9120.335,"text":"因為工程會尚未主改,工程會面臨的主改第一次是2010年的組織法修法。行政院明定組織架構是14部8會1院,兩種出山獨立機關合計29部會,不再設置工程會。原本的工程會被拆分移撥到財政部國發會以及原本要成立的交通建設部。"},{"start":9120.996,"end":9149.739,"text":"第二次是2018年賴清德擔任行政院長期間先確定工程會業務不拆分又將工程會業務全數併入國發會那最近一次提出是蘇貞昌任內人事行政總署研議成立行政院公共工程總署為行政院專業工程幕僚機關不必再修裝組織基準法那要先救教主委賴清德總統曾提出的併入國發會或蘇貞昌前院長提出的行政院公共工程總署您認同哪一個"},{"start":9151.919,"end":9177.553,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那麼我想工程會的主改問題是政策決定的那麼我個人擔任這個職務所以目前我沒有對這幾個案並沒有個人的看法也沒有評論好就是對於該金德總統所提出的或是蘇貞昌院長所提的這就就是被動接受大概就不予評論嘛"},{"start":9179.312,"end":9197.945,"text":"好那沒關係那我再接著就叫主委因為您的經歷是非常豐富啊擔任過宜蘭縣的代理縣長高雄市副市長還有國營事業的中油董事長那所以因為這些原因啊你找了兩位副手那這些副手的資歷也都非常的非常的豐富那"},{"start":9198.826,"end":9223.977,"text":"好這個部分一個是高雄市政府的時候任職的禮儀的副主委嘛現在副主另外一位是這個簡介中可以看到他是擅長於土地開發相關工作也擔任過國營事業國營企業的台南董事另外一位是陳維祥也擔任過法服的秘書長也做過中游的董事大家都跟主委關係非常的密切那想要直接請教主委對於這兩位"},{"start":9225.818,"end":9254.501,"text":"復首公共工程委員會中的角色的定義那到底他們的定義跟幫助是什麼?謝謝委員因為公共工程委員會的主管法律包括政府採購法、技師法或者是公共公司條例這當中涉及的法律是非常多尤其是禮約爭議政府的契約或者是禮約爭議的處理那麼工程會需要一個具有法律背景的"},{"start":9255.442,"end":9278.323,"text":"副主委來統合相關的問題好那謝謝主委因為我已經早就預期你會提到履約爭議那但是陳偉祥副主委他過去的專業上並不是政府採購法而是在於他這些法府或狠性法律事務所所負責的都是刑事民事那跟行政法較無相關那這個部分要怎麼樣重分讓社會各界幸福"},{"start":9279.993,"end":9287.418,"text":"陳律師陳副主委他的法學專研相當有基礎我對他有信心"},{"start":9289.791,"end":9312.24,"text":"今天先不用讓副主委來回應因為今天才剛開始但我直接就接著就講因為我們期待副主委後面的表現那至於說同樣法界出身那負責公共工程履約爭議協調上次黃國昌委員有爆料有提到的有一位王靖堯律師那現在主委打算怎麼處置因為他那時候在"},{"start":9313.66,"end":9331.195,"text":"這個所謂的王建豪律師在福報公使乍領國防部法律意見費用那在國防部復驗的時候說像陳班仁囂張嗆聲說這個國防部的陳班仁是第一個敢判定他驗收不合格而他也認識很多的大哥阿他也查過陳班仁的底阿"},{"start":9331.795,"end":9358.429,"text":"那就這樣子的一個律師現在還在公共工程委員會的採購申訴審議委員會當委員那想請問一下那主委目前對於這樣子的人士之前要說處理那現在處理的進度會怎麼樣謝謝委員那麼跟委員報告那麼工程會已經先暫停王晉堯委員他關於這個採購申訴委員會他的任務了那麼也含情公安部說明相關案情"},{"start":9361.374,"end":9386.696,"text":"好 那就暫停 那暫停之後後面的處置勒 就是暫停就好嗎因為那個委員會暫停就不派發任務嘛 那麼他就不會接觸到相關政府採購的理由爭議他的申訴跟調解相關的業務我還是本期還是在這裡表示就是說 如果今天來講他在對一個國防部的承辦人也是用這樣子嗆聲恐嚇的方式而只是做一個暫停"},{"start":9387.236,"end":9388.277,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9403.129,"end":9422.423,"text":"主委您的過去的這經歷也是非常豐富的所以說其實有時候啊黨外的朋友有時候比黨內的還要好有時候黨內的還是有很多的一些訊息都會流通來流通去那所以就有人跟我提到就是因為你那時候擔任全國的信賴之友會秘書長"},{"start":9423.604,"end":9444.325,"text":"那這個秘書長在團隊的位置來講這個也是非常的重要但是這個秘書長的這種角色啊有時候像後援會某某之友會那他其實他的角色就是一個募款的角色那所以說這時候就會接觸到許多企業的金主啊還有各地的這個就是包括捐款給"},{"start":9445.146,"end":9456.414,"text":"包括賴清德總統的這些企業但是現在你的角色擔任的是這個公共工程委員會主委你要如何來讓公共工程委員會的未來的標案都能夠至清跟避嫌"},{"start":9460.696,"end":9481.153,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想我的工作一定是依法行政何況公共工程會並沒有辦理政府採購我們是政府採購法的主管機關並沒有直接辦理政府採購沒關係那因為您是一個重要的一個橋樑但是沒關係這個後面看您的表情都是可以被"},{"start":9481.834,"end":9484.877,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9505.069,"end":9505.449,"text":"李博弈委員發言"},{"start":9536.253,"end":9559.976,"text":"謝謝 我們請陳主委請陳主委喝一口水的時間而已 辛苦了陳主委我跟你是舊式從你到高雄市政府任職的第一天其實那時候我就跟你認識那對你在環保以及政府部門相關的這些經驗跟這些做事的方式先給予佩服"},{"start":9560.851,"end":9575.23,"text":"那也感謝你在這一次願意回到公部門我想在民間單位在獨立董事自由自在那可以揮灑你的空間願意回來我想為新政府做事先給予你肯定"},{"start":9576.471,"end":9604.986,"text":"我們也瞭解民間的這些獨立董事以及民間的這些單位其實藉助你過去的長才來這些地方發揮人家也是要生活所以願意回來工部門再回來這個火坑跟廚房先給予你肯定我想這些包含這些民間部門的這些釐清當然都會清清楚楚從你就職這一天開始這個我都沒有任何一點的質疑"},{"start":9605.586,"end":9631.813,"text":"那對於公共工程我想倒是有非常重要的事情想要救教主委的態度公共工程委員會其實指導所有公共工程的業主可能包含水利署可能包含國土署可能包含駐都中心可能包含捷運局可能包含國防部真的太多了但是這些業主其實也有苦難言"},{"start":9633.629,"end":9660.027,"text":"我說有苦難言就是說我講大的這些好了我等一下講小的再請我們現在的新任的副主委上來問大的這些國土署這些從疫情的時候其實很多工程飆不出去當時的公共工程委員會其實有針對這些飆不出去的這些工程其實有做出要補貼但是有沒有落實"},{"start":9661.463,"end":9688.283,"text":"所有的這些業主所有的我們的政府單位都有聽到這個樓梯的聲音但是說沒看到人啊沒看到人的原因是什麼就是我們的上級指導單位我們的公共工程委員會對於具體落實的到底這個業主到底水利署或者是到底這個國土署到底住宿中心你這一個你這一個工程已經發包兩次三次出不去的時候"},{"start":9690.354,"end":9715.616,"text":"我們公共工程委員會要拿什麼樣的政策來指導這些業主來這個問題我相信主委一定瞭解所以有沒有相關的大的方向要來說明一下首先感謝委員在102年2月初吧我剛到高雄的第一天你不要把日期講出來我會嚇到"},{"start":9717.136,"end":9730.385,"text":"是你到接音站去接我的非常謝謝這是一個很美好的回憶那關於工程會的角色當然針對行政院列管的公共工程有指導跟協調的這樣的一個"},{"start":9733.006,"end":9759.331,"text":"工作的權利跟義務那針對一些工程不管是已經發包了在執行中發包不出去的你知道兩次到三次的過程在做什麼都是我們的業主在拜託過去有做過的這些營造單位你來做不完都用嘴巴講事實上會不會損失這個沒有人知道"},{"start":9760.72,"end":9786.833,"text":"所以如果說能夠協助機關在辦理發報的時候如果有需要再修正計畫增加預算那工程會角色是可以協助的我覺得工程會可以主動就是針對可能兩次以上沒有發報出去你們檢討出原因之後那工程會有跟工程會有過討論之後就可以趕快讓他們有個有一個課程就趕快來處理來我請那個"},{"start":9790.074,"end":9813.262,"text":"副主委新任副主委李一德副主委時間先暫停一下謝謝剩1分鐘而已主委你先請回座副主委你上一個工作是來自屏東的這個城鄉處嘛城鄉處有很多小型的工程可能"},{"start":9814.281,"end":9836.858,"text":"不到一億可能五千萬到一億的工程你就找不到承包商了你可能就要留標三次以上那所以說在您擔任現在擔任這個副主委的同時站在一個縣市政府主管的立場縣市政府必須要推動的公共工程的立場來講的話公共工程委員會可以做什麼樣的指導"},{"start":9838.39,"end":9854.447,"text":"好謝謝委員垂詢那我想這個發報上面來講當然地方政府主辦機關他有他自己的一些調整的一些措施主辦機關一定就是這樣嘛我的預算只有這樣啊那我要增加或者我要怎樣那公共工程委員會可以給予什麼樣的主導"},{"start":9854.687,"end":9870.592,"text":"工程會部分來當然現在已既有機制他們會做一些主動去針對那種流標兩次以上的案件來去主動去關心協助他們然後開無數次的這種協調會協助他們做針對那種流標的原因去提針對每一種樣態提出一些因應的這些做法"},{"start":9871.292,"end":9892.637,"text":"那以我們工程會目前的資料來講其實也會透過一些不定期的訪查來去了解那這個流標兩次以上的案件其實兩次招標兩次絕標的案件其實過去這一兩年其實也逐步在提升那我們持續來繼續努力謝謝委員好謝謝李博義委員發言完畢現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":9901.792,"end":9901.912,"text":"請陳主委"},{"start":9919.691,"end":9944.796,"text":"委員長主委早這個事情不是在您任內發生的但我相信新政府上台我們很多政務的推動都有延續性之前我在交通委員會的時候曾經請教過上次的工程會的主委五日主委針對我下面所要請教的這個案子有一定的經過我今天先讓主委瞭解狀況就是說"},{"start":9947.276,"end":9975.847,"text":"拿納稅的錢去辦政府採購的標案只要合法合不合理那是納稅人心中的一把尺但如果說特定的媒體人特別是擁護執政黨的媒體人拿到標案的金額跟數量已經不成比例的過高的時候作為立法委員這個是要站在納稅人的立場來加以監督的好"},{"start":9977.321,"end":9986.843,"text":"那針對啊周玉蔻他名下的公司五年內取得政府的標案一千三百萬我之前有請公共工程委員會向各個"},{"start":9989.045,"end":10010.806,"text":"招標的政府取得相關的合約、驗收跟檢案報告在調取資料的過程當中基本上都還蠻順利的因為我們不能夠說只看標案不看內容就說裡面有問題嘛我們一定要實事求是看裡面的內容但有一個地方特別奇怪"},{"start":10012.062,"end":10037.019,"text":"就是高雄市政府高雄市政府從2月的時候公共工程委員會幫忙向各個機關說去其他所有的地方政府都交了就是高雄市政府不交3月7號的時候工程會發文給高雄市政府吹腳5月16號的時候再發文給高雄市政府吹腳"},{"start":10038.098,"end":10059.512,"text":"那個時候我問前主委吳哲成吳主委這到底發生了怎麼回事怎麼其他的地方都調得到就是高雄市政府他不會給那這三個標案的內容這個不是我捏造出來的在網路上面可以看到招標得標基本上面的須知"},{"start":10060.793,"end":10073.726,"text":"吳主委說他會去溝通那你們在業務交接的時候吳主委有沒有告訴你說現在溝通到什麼地方了跟委員報告我個人一直沒有跟吳主委做任何"},{"start":10074.844,"end":10099.396,"text":"的交接不過這個案子會內曾經有做說明關於委員需要的資料那工程會都會按照委員會的指示去函這個透過發函的方式讓各機關瞭解委員需要的資料至於這個高雄市政府相關機關的部分我會進一步再來瞭解"},{"start":10099.898,"end":10124.531,"text":"是不是可以拜託一下啦因為陳主委你之前也在高雄市政府任職過嘛應該跟陳其邁市長也是熟識嘛我們現在這不是在談個人關係的問題啊我們公事公辦嘛從2月開始要喔要到現在5月要結束了都還要不到還需要多久的時間主委你可以去溝通一下嗎"},{"start":10127.008,"end":10153.885,"text":"跟委員報告那麼我會後會瞭解整個相關狀況那麼做若干的處理若高雄市政府不給那就回一個公文不給嘛上面就寫不給的理由嘛要了這麼久也不回應其他機關都給了只有高雄市政府不給會讓人覺得很奇怪啊那裡面是有什麼貓膩嗎要了三個月都不給可以這樣嗎"},{"start":10156.192,"end":10162.134,"text":"主委您去了解需要多久的時間?我的問題是您需要多久時間?還要再三個月嗎?這個沒有辦法來"},{"start":10183.123,"end":10205.787,"text":"來跟你報告說多少時間我們竟在法律授權之內那麼透過我們工程會相關的這個雖然齁是地方政府的標案但為什麼跟工程會有關係這有牽涉到中央的法規啊我為什麼這樣講因為給綜藝課的那些標案啊我一個一個去調調完了我實事求是啊台電有問題了我在經濟委員會我已經問過了"},{"start":10210.129,"end":10232.149,"text":"我調出來屏東縣政府有問題的裡面針對屏東縣政府網路行銷的合作案來看一下內容內容是潘孟安以41.6的支持度大幅領先對手這個是在行銷屏東縣政府還是在行銷潘孟安啊可以拿納稅的錢"},{"start":10234.144,"end":10254.19,"text":"去買媒體選舉的時候幫自己宣傳自己的支持度大幅領先對手政府的標準是拿來做這種事嗎我上次問吳哲成主委的時候啊他表情很凝重啊說這種事情不應該發生吳主委講得很好"},{"start":10255.643,"end":10284.358,"text":"因為他知道他的職責公共工程委員會這種事情就要把關執行政府的法令嘛為什麼我說要去執行政府的法令還不是只有潘孟安欸包括你們現在的副主委李一德那個時候任職屏東縣政府的時候一樣啊當行政首長個人擦肢抹粉納稅人的錢可以這樣花喔那為什麼敢說這樣的話來看一下"},{"start":10285.936,"end":10302.877,"text":"有一個重要的法規政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項辦理政策宣導不得以下列方式自律性行銷方式進行採購媒體的時候可以做首長自我宣傳嗎來看一下請出位"},{"start":10308.875,"end":10331.328,"text":"我想針對個案我們正在工程會的立場大概是針對政府採購是否符合政府採購法的規定那麼他履約的過程有沒有按照契約來執行那委員關心的 這個不是契約這個是我們中央政府所頒布的行政命令這個不是契約這是法規"},{"start":10336.158,"end":10362.256,"text":"如果各個政府在辦標案的時候把中央政府所頒布的法規當成空氣啊你說不行我照幹我照幹也不會有任何法律效果那這樣中央政府的法規要如何的實踐這是我的問題啊主委你覺得當地方政府無視中央的法規"},{"start":10363.922,"end":10370.647,"text":"用納稅的錢還執意這樣去幹的時候這個時候中央政府應該要採取什麼樣的立場跟作為"},{"start":10373.206,"end":10399.16,"text":"來請主委簡單的說明包括我們現在已經走過兩分半鐘所以這個主管機關跟工程會沒有關係我們站在這個機關不宜去在這裡不宜去解釋其他機關的法規啦那相關機關他有上級機關我想我們誠懇的跟幫委報告你要許的資料我們會透過協商那麼依法在法律規定之內那麼請高雄市政府來"},{"start":10399.54,"end":10401.021,"text":"謝謝黃委員發言完畢也請黃委員多保重我們現在請侯孟楷委員發言"},{"start":10428.737,"end":10445.535,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳金德主委請陳主委來主委我剛剛很訝異黃國昌委員的質詢我一定要再確認一下您剛剛有特別提到是說您跟前任主委沒有交接"},{"start":10447.193,"end":10474.44,"text":"是當然有交接聯合交接嘛聯合交接當天是這個業務上有沒有交接業務當然會聽取各單位的報告這個也是交接我講的是人跟人在聯合交接典禮當天是副主委來交接是那個是硬性的交接啦但是說你們自己沒有坐下來面對面來講是說他的業務怎麼樣然後來去做經驗的分享這個沒有"},{"start":10475.953,"end":10492.924,"text":"找機會來跟吳主委來請教就是之後才會有啦好啦我想為什麼會這樣講因為你突然講出這句話沒有交接我下一條我想說如果這樣的話真的是政府部門這個螺絲鬆到一個極點啦因為馬上我上網去查2016年"},{"start":10494.785,"end":10520.718,"text":"5月那個時候馬政府跟蔡政府的交接是各部會都有交接甚至行政院公共工程委員會520交接的簡報檔都可以在網路上找到43頁那如果說現任主委突然講說沒有交接那我覺得會讓大家覺得很匪夷所思所以給你機會來做澄清啦是剛才那個個案剛才那件政策不過我們關心的議題還是要關心"},{"start":10522.884,"end":10546.02,"text":"主委今天的這個報告我特別都有看過但是過去這幾年重大公共工程大家面臨到不管是民間企業或是公共工程企業公共工程最重要是缺工缺料的問題缺工缺料的問題在你的報告裡面好像沒有特別提到說要怎麼解決主委你有什麼想法"},{"start":10547.52,"end":10559.866,"text":"跟主委跟委員報告我想缺工缺料的方式問題我們工程會啊持續跟相關機關啊或者是承攬單位一直都在協助處理一直在處理"},{"start":10561.365,"end":10585.15,"text":"怎麼處理我請主管來跟你說明不是啊陳主委之前吳哲陳主委的時候本席也一直請教他這個問題因為這不是一個個案這是通案過去這幾年我相信如果說你有確實的交接的話你們業務單位應該都有跟你報告重大國家重大公共工程過去幾年流標四次五次六次七次比比皆是"},{"start":10586.175,"end":10609.141,"text":"那為什麼?就是因為有缺工缺料的問題第一時間我們要講是說到底相關的這個投標金額有沒有到符合這樣子的一個業界的一個需求那還有即便是缺料物源物料上漲但是工人的部分能夠怎麼樣的補足所以留標幾次的這個工程非常的多"},{"start":10610.131,"end":10634.522,"text":"那本席的轄區裡面不管是淡北聯外道路不管是林口交流道雖然現在招標出去但過去也有留標了七次六次而延宕的時間那所以說這不是一個個案問題這是通案問題本席為什麼突然特別提到就是因為你整本報告裡面沒有提沒有講到這樣的一個部分我特別看了一下 主委"},{"start":10635.495,"end":10639.89,"text":"我覺得這個是應該要由公共工程委員會主委特別去重視的問題您同意嗎?"},{"start":10642.285,"end":10669.819,"text":"我們當然相當重視所以針對若干個案有缺工也會協調行政院來提高專案移工的引進缺的問題據我所了解針對南部沙石的採售也協調相關辦理輸進的機關跟業者讓售價格一致讓這個沙石的供應不是斷料那麼工程會一直很認真在協調這些事情"},{"start":10671.849,"end":10697.944,"text":"各位本席希望真的是要做實事把這個民間所關係的問題給放在心裡第二個部分我覺得要跟你就教一下說這個橋樑的安全我特別有看到一下你在報告的第8頁抽查公共建築有效使用狀況那預計會來做定時的一個抽查那以及在抽查橋樑維護管理情形"},{"start":10699.13,"end":10724.513,"text":"今年抽查8件特殊的橋樑維護管理但我們全國到目前為止總共橋樑是3萬多座那你在這個部分我們身為一個中央主管機關一年抽查8件符合比例原則嗎能不能確保全國的這個橋樑的一個安全我請主管來說明"},{"start":10727.509,"end":10752.848,"text":"向委員報告現在目前全國的橋樑有兩萬五千余座那其實在整個這個委管的一個機制部分行政院定有這個這個橋樑管理要點那主管部會分別有交通部內政部都有各自的一個部分那工程會也會在這個年度呢也會另外再增加一些抽查所以原本就已經既有的機制下"},{"start":10753.168,"end":10757.934,"text":"原本抽查8件嘛,你第8頁的報告是8件那你還要再增加"},{"start":10759.222,"end":10783.507,"text":"還是8件已經是增加8件就是8件是那原有全國不管是我之前媒體的資料講說全國有3萬多座橋樑或是你剛講2萬5千多座橋樑我當然知道各地方主管機關有一些是內政部主管有一些是消防部主管我當然了解啊啊但是重點就在於是說過去南方澳的這個大橋斷裂的時候不也是這樣嗎"},{"start":10784.887,"end":10808.835,"text":"大家就解釋說那是地方政府主管的所以說就沒有人去管理那他就突然斷裂了所以才要抽查機制為什麼要抽查機制他就是一個盤點他就是一個再確認當全國兩萬五千多座或三萬座橋樑在的時候我們公共工程委員會他能夠做一個及時的盤點那我只想問一年如果說只有八件的橋樑抽查"},{"start":10810.165,"end":10818.412,"text":"那我們怎麼有辦法確保各地方政府主管機關不管是交通部管內政部他們所維護的橋樑都是安全的"},{"start":10819.81,"end":10845.277,"text":"委員報告那麼多橋樑分屬不同主管機關那麼也有維護單位那麼這些機關還有上級機關他們就持續在按照他們的計畫在抽查當中所以並非全國2萬多個橋樑只抽查8件不是那工程會本來工程會的職責那麼在施工中或者是說使用中那工程會會抽樣是進比方說比較重要的危牢的去抽查"},{"start":10845.797,"end":10865.463,"text":"所以整個抽查各機關各部會都在進行中並不是只有罷兼好主委這樣回覆我姑且信之請主委是不是能夠在一個禮拜裡面提供本席整理相關的資料交通部內政部相關部會他們今年的抽查狀況"},{"start":10868.076,"end":10881.365,"text":"我們會請這個工程會跟交通部來協調請交通部提供資料好那就一個禮拜裡面提供可以嗎好謝謝好主委一個禮拜裡面提供可以嗎一個禮拜裡面提供"},{"start":10883.427,"end":10884.488,"text":"謝謝侯孟楷委員的發言"},{"start":10903.755,"end":10926.582,"text":"謝謝相關的橋樑交通部都有相關的定期檢測跟特別檢測橋樑的安全級數也有分別有ABCD相關的這些級數這些交通部都有相關的資料請公共工程委員會在一週之內將相關的資料向侯孟凱委員來做報告現在請陳雪生召委來做發言"},{"start":10932.061,"end":10935.122,"text":"首先要謝謝主委以前在中遊的時候"},{"start":10961.578,"end":10962.539,"text":"行政院工程會在過去的這些時間"},{"start":10989.966,"end":11018.135,"text":"我們馬祖離島偏鄉只要在颱風、災害、災損的部分工程會都是在第一時間派處長級以上的官員那麽列立馬祖給縣政府協助有一些東西優先可以處理的馬上立即處理所以我也對工程會的同仁也表示感謝那最近也有一些事情主要就是缺工缺料"},{"start":11019.241,"end":11024.884,"text":"臺灣目前缺工,勞動部有沒有引進一批移工進來?勞動部啊?您知道嗎?針對整體的還是個案?針對全國的"},{"start":11044.909,"end":11072.034,"text":"他全國有引進一批勞工嗎?對,勞動部會針對比如說哪一個案,那麼他的業主會提出需求指的是某一些特定的專業的對,他提出需求,然後經行政院核定之後他專案,然後再來引進這個很像是勞動部那邊主管那我是拜託主委就是說有機會的時候因為台灣本島就已經缺工缺料了"},{"start":11074.96,"end":11097.92,"text":"那在金門馬祖澎湖更缺工缺料,所以很多的工程都標不出去,沒有人標啊。為什麼?他沒有兵力嘛,沒有人力嘛。再加上因為航程比較遠,很多的原材物料從台灣運過去,那很多原材物料鋼鐵等等在台灣已經就不夠用了。"},{"start":11098.71,"end":11124.879,"text":"在台灣已經不夠用了所以運到金門馬阿祖去做這些工程相對的困難取得材料非常的困難那最近也是前瞻計畫的一個工程的高峰期大家都在搶工人所以台灣已經不夠用了再去馬阿祖把馬阿祖這些以前的老工人"},{"start":11125.956,"end":11149.03,"text":"再給他請回臺灣來那更顯得馬祖勞動力的不足所以請主委正視這樣一個問題好不好我想早上很多的委員都已經詢問這方面的事情另外因為缺工而衍生出來很多合約的爭議那麼"},{"start":11153.51,"end":11177.277,"text":"工程會有訂定一個採購契約的範本第七條第三款第一幕但裡面有規定非可規則於廠商的情形當然這一些是可以延長工期的那也有一些非"},{"start":11180.655,"end":11187.902,"text":"規則於廠商的情形,廠商要檢據相當的證明文件才給予展現。"},{"start":11190.373,"end":11210.269,"text":"我拜託主委是不是能夠找一個行政院工程會對金門馬祖地區比較有基礎的看看找相關的官員能夠到馬祖去做這一方面的一個調處因為行政院工程會是全國最高的工程解釋機關"},{"start":11211.806,"end":11233.213,"text":"你們的調處應該是相當具有公信力。那麼如果有發生類似廠商跟工部門之間的合約契約,有產生類似的問題,是不是請工程會能夠幫忙在這一個部分來調處,是不是請主委回答我。"},{"start":11234.413,"end":11243.638,"text":"謝謝委員那麼禮約爭議在進入禮約的不管是申訴或者是調解之前還有一個禮約的諮詢"},{"start":11246.485,"end":11273.319,"text":"有諮詢委員會可以諮詢所以我們非常會請工程會就法規跟工程的專業主管那麼會配合委員的時間到馬祖去就用諮詢的角度來解釋這個禮約的這樣的一個法規或應該做的決定就是說非正式的調解希望能夠達成雙方對合約有共同的認識"},{"start":11274.696,"end":11299.12,"text":"是的,我想主委你派人到馬祖去,不是說只是跟縣政府的工程部門去接觸,跟營造商工會,營造商工會也去聽聽他們內心的感受還有他們的需求,除了工部門之外營造業工會也去拜訪一下,主委這一點你可以做得到嗎?可以"},{"start":11300.661,"end":11316.379,"text":"謝謝主委也恭喜你好不好老同事希望你再接再厲馬祖第一有什麼事情再幫我們忙好不好好謝謝您好謝謝陳雪生召委發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":11325.902,"end":11332,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們要請這個工程會主委陳金德主委請陳主委"},{"start":11338.029,"end":11340.991,"text":"臺北捷運也好桃園捷運也好這個每一個捷運的新建的過程裡面都遇到"},{"start":11363.007,"end":11381.081,"text":"多次的流標那甚至季節延伸站歷經了14次流標好那才慢慢的這個終於有就標出去那桃園也是一樣和五度的流標要延到2013年才能通車好那為什麼會特別提這個呢因為我想臺中現在也正在努力的想要來推動捷運臺中目前只有一條綠線捷運"},{"start":11382.762,"end":11400.873,"text":"那藍線剛通過這個綜合規劃那綠線也正在準備送那還有橘線等等的台中也很多條捷運我想要就教於我們主委是說未來這個台中捷運如果也是這樣多條線的動工那工程會員有沒有什麼樣的策略跟方式能夠來避免流票進行發生"},{"start":11402.635,"end":11416.513,"text":"會不會因為再次多次流標那本來現階段講說10年內能通車會不會因為流標拖到20年我都已經不知道幾歲的時候才通車主委你對這個問題有沒有想要解決方案我請主管來說明"},{"start":11419.639,"end":11441.337,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關捷運工程確實這幾年各縣市都積極的在辦理捷運工程所以捷運工程的這個保核量我們一直有在掌握有在分析那也希望說可以透過一些適度的分包那在預算跟工期上面要做更妥適的一個安排那這些流標原因我們都有做一些整理跟做注意事項通知給各個機關也會來持續來做一個宣導"},{"start":11443.535,"end":11471.808,"text":"這個預算跟工期的確就在預期的答覆裡面我們就整理一下當然每次工程流標的原因當然事後檢討一定是預算不足那工期不實都會有這些原因出現那還有包含說設計疏突企業不合理這都是過去很多次的流標案件裡面我們看到的這些檢討的報告都有這些項目我要問的是說這個新官上任我想要提的問題說是不是工程會在前期的階段因為我想任何的地方政府建設要通過之前"},{"start":11472.168,"end":11491.85,"text":"一定都會來報到院那各單位一起來來看這案子合不合理我想問說工程會有沒有機會在這個階段就能夠先出手而不是等到事後已經確定沒救了再來說因為你們當初預算變得不足工期不實社會術不合理在前期階段有沒有機會先介入主委"},{"start":11493.306,"end":11522.852,"text":"謝謝委員我想工程會針對一定規模以上的這個公建案在他的可行性研究或是綜合規劃的時候會參與審查那等到合定之後他的基本設計那是工程會主審所以當工程會主審這個基本設計的時候就會了解那麼他的相關的問題包括減碳包括預算的概估等等所以這部分工程會在這個階段那麼就有著墨的"},{"start":11523.012,"end":11523.772,"text":"﹚提供相關的意見﹚"},{"start":11545.239,"end":11561.796,"text":"我當然知道前期有很多單位會參與那我想問的是說工程會有沒有可能因為其實你看在預算不足工期的問題因為只要預算不足導致因為現在其實最核心的當然缺工缺料啦在缺工缺料這件事情上工程會有沒有機會去協調包含說勞動部或其他部會"},{"start":11562.697,"end":11588.106,"text":"他們一起來面對這個缺工的問題因為你如果缺工問題沒有解決的話後續這個預算不足供給不實它還是會持續發生因為其實預算不足跟供給不實某種程度上這兩件事情是互為因果啦你如果人就是不夠蓋的就是慢那後續又這個物價上漲上來你預算當然不足嘛所以想先問說工程會在這個事情上面的角色有沒有機會去協調勞動部去解決這個缺工的問題"},{"start":11591.369,"end":11612.045,"text":"謝謝委員整個營建或相關的工件案的缺工那工程會的角色是可以針對這個個案他的不管是機關或者是說相關業者他提出需求的時候工程會是受行政院委託來審查這個需求是否合理尤其是超出"},{"start":11613.265,"end":11640.679,"text":"勞動部他的一些引進移工的比例的時候那我們可以專案來核定所以工程會在這個各個案缺移工的部分是可以扮演也算積極的角色來協助這個缺工問題不過這個已經是標出去了在進行中那至於整體缺工的部分我們想我們會找機會跟勞動部共同來了解或是相關機關來了解整體是不是有整體的"},{"start":11641.879,"end":11664.175,"text":"這個引進的法規或者是必要好主委謝謝也是有具體答覆了其實這個的確這個如果開工之後缺工我也感謝這工程會去來幫忙爭取那除了民間的這個勞工之外其實工部門其實也是有一個相關的問題我以我們這交通委員會自己內部的這個幾個單位來講說有些像鐵道局他們在這個"},{"start":11666.536,"end":11694.437,"text":"報紙上有刊載就多就是這個缺額土木土木直系的這缺額多年這幾年下來大概有時候高達兩成三成或是開出的缺來填報人甚至沒有因爲當然這跟薪資有關係因爲公部門的薪資比不上業界因爲最近這幾年房地產很興盛所以業界的薪水比工程還工程面比公部門還高那面對公部門連這相關土木直系都會缺工的情況下面工程會有沒有什麼解決的這個方案出來"},{"start":11696.246,"end":11696.907,"text":"請同仁回答演繹當中演繹多久了"},{"start":11726.049,"end":11747.376,"text":"這個是從去年下半年有開始在討論預計什麼時候會有這個解決的方案出來跟委員報告有關這個預計解決的方案這個部分因為涉及到整個就是土木直系人員的這個待遇調整這個部分我們必須要再跟主管機關人事行政總署再確認"},{"start":11748.732,"end":11774.651,"text":"好,因為這個土木直系的公務人員我想他的就業風險他的工作環境其實講白了他的風險也蠻高的不管他的工作環境還是他的這個法律問題我覺得土木直系的確是公務人員裡面相對比較辛苦的所以這部分除了民間缺工之外我也希望說工程會要注意到這個連工部門自己的專業人才也在缺工那這想對未來的公共安全或對於工程設計也都會有影響那最後一個最後一個問題就是說這個"},{"start":11776.252,"end":11799.251,"text":"工程會這邊既然我們都知道缺工缺料那後面預算還有物價不斷上漲我們希望未來在審核的時候包含不管是中央政府也好或地方政府也好都能夠保留一筆預算來面對說工期延宕也好或是物價上漲也好它帶來的這個經費增加的部分是能夠先預留的而不是說因為你看有時候工程一延宕延個五年一個十年"},{"start":11800.252,"end":11824.507,"text":"當初的物價算的時候的物價跟那時候的物價一定不一樣嘛所以這物價的調整在預算裡面是不是能夠有機會先保留起來主委跟委員報告我想有些重大規模的公共設施他預算諮詢預算本來就是分年度有整額所以在比方說下年度或次年度他是有機會再來調整的"},{"start":11827.978,"end":11839.486,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在現在請王美惠委員發言這是大家主任委員"},{"start":11854.465,"end":11854.747,"text":"來請陳主委"},{"start":11861.471,"end":11883.987,"text":"委員長 主委你好 真高興在這個地方與你相約在主委你也是擔任行政院政府委員 再來最重要的你就是會監督我們交通部的 再來在這裡面公共工程就是要看我們的目的"},{"start":11885.319,"end":11911.096,"text":"起雅樂嗎?在這裏面我相信主委也知道我來自嘉義市嘉義市現在建設最大條的現在做的就是鐵路高架鐵路高架是面臨的就是我們差不多中間3年疫情的問題所以欠缸"},{"start":11912.694,"end":11919.818,"text":"每件事都會出現．所以主委本身是要請教說．假如說我們還沒發報．還沒發報或是沒有很久發報．兩三天之後．我們會去調那個金錢嘛．"},{"start":11931.155,"end":11935.158,"text":"要不然已經發報已經做了要不然中央也決定補助地方的錢如果這樣回到這都無法抗拒的什麼人願意發生這個疫情這麼嚴重要不然好好知道台灣很團結我們的政府也有作為可以"},{"start":11959.025,"end":11967.769,"text":"在三天後平平安安大家繼續向前走所以本席要來問這個問題存在是要如何去處理以您專業的是不是可以提供意見給本席來請主委講一下"},{"start":11982.643,"end":11998.441,"text":"謝謝委員我初步了解在執行中的建設那因為大概預算顯然不夠是因為物價或人力薪資的問題我想是否可以"},{"start":12000.863,"end":12015.509,"text":"主管機關主辦機關來請求改變計畫那這個改變計畫當然會涉及到工期阿或者是預算阿如果能獲得核定那當然就會解決這樣的問題我初步想因為還沒有還沒有說這個"},{"start":12018.13,"end":12019.45,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12042.113,"end":12056.062,"text":"我們已經發佈了,像說我們北省去建商買一間房子在這個,譬如這樣說一千萬在這個規定當中,我也已經簽約了,錢也付給他但這個3年當中,疫情,每年每天都去所以說這樣說,我說用一個簡單的推算說,這間房子"},{"start":12072.745,"end":12098.941,"text":"該負擔三百萬的本錢這三百萬是不是我們要更多去負責還是必須跟他簽約之後必須要負責這三百萬來主委若像這樣邏輯你若想一個是民法的問題對我知道或者我請陳副主委來好來"},{"start":12105.758,"end":12120.55,"text":"謝謝委員那這個剛剛主委已經有提到他能夠用物價指數調整就用物價指數調整但是牽涉到合約嘛那如果說當時訂的這個物價指數調整這個比例不足"},{"start":12121.31,"end":12148.096,"text":"可能會進入到下一個階段那麼就必須由法院介入說這個有沒有達到一個情勢變更重大變更因為這個牽涉到改變整個合約的結構這個通常是屬於司法權的部分這部分就是說行政權比較沒辦法所以我們現在的想法是說你在訂合約的時候或者說你當時在訂招標條件的時候這個物價指數的條件"},{"start":12149.036,"end":12151.297,"text":"我現在簡單跟你說主委你齁拜 用拜託的啦你去了解第二次現在鐵路高架他已經分配款已經確定了 但是現在沒有主規的欠工欠什麼的錢還要賺最緊要再交易 是要如何給自己的負擔 不可以這麼久啦"},{"start":12174.129,"end":12200.836,"text":"議員負擔這檔案及企業中央不用負責、地方來負責．我估計這有一點不利．同時主委這件事我們多研議一下．不是說還沒發報．發報以後回到的問題更加嚴重．主委這件事及你的鐵路高架．會企業以後地方要負擔的錢"},{"start":12203.271,"end":12219.138,"text":"好 來謝謝王美惠委員發言完畢現在請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在請邱志偉委員"},{"start":12220.138,"end":12247.137,"text":"邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在現在請林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在現在請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在現在請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在現在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在"},{"start":12247.777,"end":12270.927,"text":"現在請中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員不在登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢討完畢委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請工程會儘速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢。散會"}]}},{"id":"15959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15959","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dba75a1f35c7302ecd2042dc10dca826773be8d109af184be4d1a23da3003c16445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-29","start_time":"2024-05-29T08:31:02+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:58:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16018,"委員發言時間":"08:31:02 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個部分第一個就是擴大三保一金的農民福利制度那相對的特別是在農業保險的部分我想我們會重新檢視為什麼現在部分的產品的農業保險他推動的並不是那麼理想那我們會去思考怎麼樣用更好的一個方式能夠鼓勵農民來參加保險"},{"start":2314.355,"end":2335.924,"text":"那第二個部分也是非常重要就是小農一直是我們他們農業的一個困境所以怎麼樣集結小農變成團隊式的一個農業生產變成一個非常重要當你農業生產的話必須培育相關的農業的一個經營能材然後同時也會增加相關的農業的資源能力當資源能力不夠的話我們就會用農機的一個協助"},{"start":2339.825,"end":2368.032,"text":"所以在這邊我們新的政策裡面我們將會加強力道去推所謂的農機的服務業那簡單的說就是農機的Uber那我們未來的一個目標就是一個一鄉鎮一個農機的Uber它能夠搭配現有的人力團去做共通的一個協助那第三個部分就是我們要強化整個從餐桌農產品的安全的整個供應鏈的部分那這個部分包括有機友善在過去幾年推得還不錯的我們會持續的這一頁推動"},{"start":2368.812,"end":2384.601,"text":"那也會增加它的覆蓋率因為推動了有機農業不用肥料不用農藥的時候它另外一個部分也會減少我們的整個的那個碳排那第4個部分是怎麼樣去富裕我們的幸福農村"},{"start":2385.521,"end":2409.839,"text":"讓農村真正的成為一個一居一業的一個農村那大概有幾個面向可以跟各位委員報告第一個部分就是我們會去建立一個指導性的一個農村規劃的一個系統那配合農村財政計畫各位委員所提到的一個全國性的這些農在計畫的一個上位性的一個計畫去做一個整體性的一個規劃那第二個部分就是"},{"start":2410.439,"end":2410.579,"text":"主席"},{"start":2435.735,"end":2441.367,"text":"我想最後其實在整個農業政策是具有它的延續性的那在"},{"start":2442.466,"end":2468.592,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2474.295,"end":2501.38,"text":"好謝謝陳部長的報告我們現在要進行詢答那委員質詢前我們依照慣例主席台幾項宣告每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們上午10點半截止發言登記那我們在這邊先恭喜我們的"},{"start":2502.56,"end":2525.33,"text":"代理部長正式徵處為農業部部長陳部長我們恭喜你謝謝好那我們首先請登記第一位的陳廷飛委員請做發言謝謝教委我們請部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":2534.987,"end":2555.409,"text":"委員長部長我想有4個問題大概都是我一直在追蹤的那我比較快速那請部長把我從過去關心到現在的一些進度很清楚簡短的跟我報告一下就是說我們好不容易在整個養牛產業的全面升級轉型計畫"},{"start":2557.931,"end":2585.573,"text":"推一推剛好吹出來了齁 終於吹出來了齁從去年開始一直到現在我第一場邀請陳吉仲部長在柳營區開農會那時候是聲音最大的時候在8月29號就是112年8月29號好 我們下來了陳吉仲部長有幾個安心的方向也就是所謂的我們有淘汰這個"},{"start":2587.054,"end":2587.274,"text":"主席"},{"start":2615.736,"end":2633.988,"text":"113年就是今年的2月5號一樣我也開了座談會跟記者會那當時候農業部也是這麼說我還質詢了我們的部長當時候是代理部長部長也說也是這個方向所以我們一直追一直追一直追終於終於這個計畫這個計畫公告了對不對"},{"start":2640.902,"end":2656.618,"text":"這個計劃已經獲得行政院的一個合定合定了對合定了嘛來現在重點來了5月8日才合定嘛是不是5月8日合定現在所有弱農都在擔心怎麼辦"},{"start":2658.141,"end":2683.177,"text":"5月8日才核定那你當時候在去年跟人家講的一些甜言蜜語人家已經跟你配合政府的一些相關的措施都已經做了結果現在有可能因為主計單位有可能因為年度的問題沒有辦法溯及既往回歸到當時候你們所講的12月1號"},{"start":2685.616,"end":2708.898,"text":"欸 這事情大條捏 部長 這事情大條捏 這變成我們政府私信於民欸 在8月29日當時候是陳其中部長去答應 然後後面所有相關你們的說明會到各地的說明會都是這麼說 你們要趕快做 我們來做淘汰這個乳牛的相關辦法"},{"start":2711.087,"end":2718.634,"text":"大家都配合：結果現在說不可以,現在5月8日行政院才通過沒有辦法溯及到10月1號部長這怎麼辦"},{"start":2723.171,"end":2750.502,"text":"我想跟委員說明就是5月8日通過了以後那基本上淘汰拐角年齡也是一個既定的政策那我們在內部也一直在去研議、去追溯好這第一點我要先跟委員說明的但是在追溯的部分有很多執行的細節因為整個乳牛的一個例行性的一個當然啊這有細節啊這當然你們要去克服啊你有話要跟我說這麼大聲在去年8月29日"},{"start":2752.104,"end":2755.902,"text":"你怎麼知道我年度的問題?你要跟行政院講啊!"},{"start":2756.997,"end":2782.573,"text":"你們要趕快給我核定啊為什麼拖到5月8號拖到5月8號現在才跟人家講說年度的問題這上一段很需要我跟委員說明齁誰能夠接受農業部本身所提的一個計畫他不是說提了一個計畫就到運廊市就核定了因為提計畫以後會到國科會會徵詢所有的相關部會的一個同意再到行政院那如果說有有他們有疑問的話還會退下來補充"},{"start":2784.734,"end":2803.211,"text":"所以整個的一個計畫其實我們在去年底就開始去研議再去研討的時候部長 這個就是重點嘛你們去年底因為我已經質詢很多次了在這個地方我質詢過幾次了然後我就在提醒你們速度要快因為一定會有年度的問題"},{"start":2804.958,"end":2831.916,"text":"結果你們來來去去來來去去來來去去到5月8號才做合定好啦這個是你們的問題不能是酪農的問題我再一次強調這些行政程序是你們的問題人家答應過、政府人家說的就是要照著不能人家跳票這個部長我在這個地方慎重要求而且如果在下一次質詢我也會質詢卓榮泰院長"},{"start":2834.861,"end":2864.621,"text":"不能因為這年度的部分我們的酪農配合我們國家的政策然後反而得不到補助這個部分很重要欸你調所有的過程我跟委員說明就是我們會讓這個制度能夠有程度的溯源但是我們也查了所有的會議記錄我們當初所提到就是說我們一定會盡可能的協助酪農能夠追溯這件事情"},{"start":2865.741,"end":2893.255,"text":"那至於追溯到什麼樣的時間點我告訴你 你們裡面的在說謊喔 所有的落農很清楚的指到12月1號 你們去調你們所有的說明會喔 你們不要在這邊說謊喔12月1號是所有落農都知道的時間點喔 你們現在過去要叫人走 就說這麼衰退這麼大聲 結果現在 現在跳票 現在矢口否認喔"},{"start":2894.52,"end":2910.093,"text":"我告訴你 這個東西 洛農已經很清楚我覺得該怎麼做就怎麼做不要跳票 不要在第一屆把代理部長徵除之後就對洛農跳票第二個部分就是說現在"},{"start":2911.451,"end":2927.76,"text":"我們看到我們的國產鮮乳計畫是要引用提供學童、引用保酒乳可是現在有兩個問題第一個問題你跟人家說鮮乳有食安的疑慮吃青椰一點是最好嘛 對不對"},{"start":2929.116,"end":2945.308,"text":"是不是?當天縣級的先來一定是最好嘛那現在衛福部說會有食安的疑慮那請問雲林縣、嘉義縣、宜蘭縣從110年到現在都陸續提供了學童先入那為什麼沒有食安的疑慮?"},{"start":2946.789,"end":2947.91,"text":"為什麼沒有?不是!部長!我已經跟你講了你不要把我跳題"},{"start":2961.374,"end":2982.342,"text":"我前面跟你講了那你要跟我講人家嘉義雲林宜蘭從110年做到現在為什麼沒有食安的問題你不要再用食安你要去跟酪農說清楚好第二個問題國產鮮乳他你如何協助他轉型因應現在變成國產的薄酒乳"},{"start":2984.482,"end":2996.952,"text":"你要怎麼去輔導他?你要怎麼去檢討相關的流程機制?現在是有關卡的喔!現在不是每一家都可以把他變成所謂的國產薄酒爐喔!不是喔!不是喔!他有門檻喔!對啊!"},{"start":3002.436,"end":3025.364,"text":"那你今天這個制度下去請問你幫到了誰?你有幫到我們真正國產的鮮乳嗎?現在是因為紐西蘭的所有薄酒乳進來薄酒乳進來之後我們為了要去鼓勵我們的鮮乳不要滯銷不要是有因為紐西蘭的問題而造成這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":3026.644,"end":3041.144,"text":"可是你這個部分你沒有去做輔導機制沒有去幫他們說國產鮮乳包括小農也好怎麼去協助他轉型因應成國產的苞酒乳這個問題就跑出來了所以今天我丟這兩個問題給你"},{"start":3043.208,"end":3044.469,"text":"第三個就是水稻的問題"},{"start":3066.167,"end":3083.388,"text":"水稻的問題水稻的保險你們現在怎麼處理有機制了嗎我們的水稻保險有分兩個一個是基本型一個是加獎型的部分當然現在針對是基本型基本型的部分我們會針對相關的這些特定的區域我們會增加它的取樣點"},{"start":3084.269,"end":3110.129,"text":"取讓點這個部分要趕快積極處理因為這幾天都已經前面都開始在收成了所有的取讓點然後增加到跟保險公司你們是你們是這個去招標的是有你們所以你應該保險公司一定有一定的一些協調平台你應該給他們一個壓力你沒有給他們壓力我跟你講啦保險公司齁 都是這樣啦反正"},{"start":3112.21,"end":3135.355,"text":"要拿的時候是另外一種面我跟委員講明喔政策型保險是我們農經局沒有政策型保險不是私人公司私人保險公司是我們農經局我們農業部局在處理的是所以沒有說那個保險公司那最好啊農經局自己人啊自己人嘛我們昨天才開會的對嘛自己人嘛那現在有方向了對了"},{"start":3136.621,"end":3141.624,"text":"就是我們會增加相關的取樣點但是基準產量的部分還是去頭去尾的部分然後還有蜂農的問題蜂農我們基本上已經公告了新的我們的這個災損已經公告了我們公告了以後要啟動的時候要開專家會議今天早上正在開"},{"start":3155.051,"end":3169.399,"text":"今天早上開專家會議專家會議開完就會有一個方向就是如何落實蜂農的登記如何讓災損的部分蜂農可以納入到我們的災損而且有一個基準產量的部分這些都會在今天會有一個討論我們在那個"},{"start":3172.02,"end":3172.9,"text":"今天早上再開,今天早上開完就會有一個方向了"},{"start":3194.73,"end":3208.217,"text":"我覺得這一次因為我們的這個農演這一次是摘損風農的損失非常非常的慘重所以我們希望學者專家應該給風農然後我們農業部應該給風農一個標準還有他們的一個挖口這是最重要的農業部長將相關資訊給成為人說明清楚謝謝"},{"start":3225.503,"end":3239.307,"text":"臣庭外臣庭外敬禮好接下來我們請林戴華委員請做巡檔有請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":3248.609,"end":3262.942,"text":"好,我們再繼續討論農業決策智慧化上一次質詢委是針對智慧化決策智慧化那這邊聚焦就是希望能夠針對基層農業會的服務品質提升要做的事情就是加速"},{"start":3263.622,"end":3266.026,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3281.584,"end":3283.326,"text":"第三個是你們現在部本部在做的本行認為很好"},{"start":3299.265,"end":3317.158,"text":"提升資訊系統串聯資訊平台最後我有一個具體要求好現在容易會使用的資訊系統已在是太過老舊了有存在資安的安全性的問題作業版本過舊舊到什麼程度現在還有在用dos還有在用window2000"},{"start":3318.579,"end":3318.739,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3348.539,"end":3352.664,"text":"也就有資料遺失的風險如果各農漁會要進行系統的更新的話這將是會產生龐大的經費支出那現在資訊服務業發達各農漁會如果不需要自己自購伺服器的話"},{"start":3366.161,"end":3371.544,"text":"他其實只要使用雲端共用平台就可以解決這個問題的 這也是你農業部、牧本部現在在做的事情好我們來看你們的輔導呢 這個我要感謝你們資訊師跟這個資訊師跟那個商員：輔導師齁 兩個師呢下去呢跟這個我們南農中心的做了一個簡報"},{"start":3389.634,"end":3398.502,"text":"那所以呢他們也就具體的提出這個農業會多元系統整合技資訊共用服務平台為了就是提升農業會的競爭力他能夠做到兩件事情第一個是我們這個軟硬體的設備的更新他的資訊落後的問題能夠解決第二個他的應用面"},{"start":3410.052,"end":3410.732,"text":"融合融合"},{"start":3429.139,"end":3448.492,"text":"的重點是我能夠降低農業會的自建機房跟人力設備為營運的成本過往現在各農業會自己要自建機房我要配置人力那如果是有南農中心自己來做那你們來支持他那你一定會問那他自負營給我怎麼可以發這麼大筆錢去支持他呢那因為後面我要達到農業決策智慧化這件事情後續我再跟您做這個陳述"},{"start":3459.499,"end":3465.121,"text":"好那你們現在農業部部本部做的是什麼呢在右圖這是你們資訊室提供的對外有這個internet對內你們有這個下面的農業部跟這個這個資料這個資料中心這個機房再來透過這個我們的這個網路接口下面就是你們的屬施個中心這樣的概念好農業部呢就是為了提升這樣的一個"},{"start":3487.106,"end":3508.156,"text":"資料中心的運作效率跟管理效能確實正在進行行政資訊系統共用架構好這個架構呢有對外服務的這個資訊系統也就這個internet以及共用行政資料的系統也就是在右邊這個圖農業部跟你這個農業資料中心以下這些都是你們自己但"},{"start":3508.715,"end":3532.091,"text":"他是針對你的人事、你的薪資還有你的公文系統這三個做你是沒有涉及農業產銷的數據化所有農林榆木的數據化所以如果你把你這個概念再加入所有基礎的農業產銷的數據那您就您的您這一任部長"},{"start":3533.444,"end":3551.425,"text":"你是一千分啦不是一百分啦是一百分的一千分你整個徹底的改改解決了我的產銷失衡好那後續我再講我的具體建議在4月25號的時候資訊師跟輔導師下去做跟農農中心做說明所以呢本期主張農業基層組織共用雲端平台"},{"start":3554.568,"end":3555.829,"text":"這句話我的具體要求就是你們講的"},{"start":3574.938,"end":3578.761,"text":"你們在右邊這張資訊是說我不需要為了一杯牛來養一頭牛這是你們的口號喔 也是你們目標喔也就是說你們不需要屬、施、各中心各自呢再去建置這個硬體的資料系統以及你軟體的這個雲端系統你們都不用了 直接部本部來做"},{"start":3594.913,"end":3595.714,"text":"同樣道理我難容你怎麼取得各農漁會跟拍賣市場的產銷、進貨、拍賣相關的庫存的量"},{"start":3606.243,"end":3629.378,"text":"你當然要通過農業委員會啊那你怎麼拿得到所以他為了你要解決這個菜精菜土這種痛苦的惡性循環你當然要諮詢化所以你必須補助農業委員會那我希望你能夠跳脫一些思維這個你不要想說他們都是國民黨的啦所以呢我就不補助千萬千萬不要用這個思維"},{"start":3630.439,"end":3638.664,"text":"我的心中我本席的心中我只有臺灣農業農業會的能夠升級能夠讓幫助我的農業民更有效率的經營能夠企業化的經營我的部本部我做立委快20多年了7屆的立委我從第一屆到現在都在跟你一樣面對慘消失衡啊我還要多久的輪迴啊還要多久的這種痛苦的成科的輪迴"},{"start":3657.464,"end":3677.331,"text":"該有智慧現在科技都智慧化決策智慧化所以你一定要編專案輔助補導我農業會的硬體設備的更新一個專案這個這一本我早就在去年就已經爬出出來濟南農中心做了這一本所有雲嘉南所有各個農業會自己給我填需求表出來"},{"start":3679.152,"end":3691.446,"text":"這筆費用 說少不少 說多不多 一億多 這只有硬體 現在大概我想這個變動不大 我還沒講到軟體的部分 你再看看你每年補助的費用都超過這個"},{"start":3693.148,"end":3693.688,"text":"為了是什麼?所有的資訊拍賣市場農業產銷的農林運輸說你掌握在現場"},{"start":3710.842,"end":3723.25,"text":"好,為了達到農業決策智慧化本席主張應比照你行政資訊系統的共用架構的模式專案輔導我南農中心汰換各縣市農業會的老舊電腦設備建置雲端服務平台讓各縣市農業會能夠彼此享有這樣的資訊服務然後呢這個能夠實現我們各系統間的基訊間接有助於提升農業會經營效率對我本席來講包括國家來講"},{"start":3739.58,"end":3765.528,"text":"根本解決產銷失衡的痛苦成科你除了這個農業你除了上次我講的這個精準農業好你要給我吊書袋叫做分子農業那這個也講到我的農業智慧化的問題現在我就直接聚焦你怎麼解決這個除了這個精準農業源頭掌握之外改善之外你基因定序下去之外你的這個整個產銷系統的設備跟雲端你當然要建設啊"},{"start":3769.429,"end":3779.483,"text":"所以部長您這一次你這做你這做多久我不曉得我希望你就是做4年甚至8年都沒關係你只要一件事給我做你就是真的是公債農業部啊你的產銷能夠徹底的解決就在這邊而已啊部長請回應"},{"start":3786.944,"end":3809.327,"text":"謝謝委員對於我們那個農業相關資訊化的一個說話那分兩個部分一個硬體的部分那硬體的部分我想我們一定會積極去協助那軟體的部分也是啊包括您剛才講的共用雲端這個概念是一個共享的一個概念非常好但是現在要去克服的一個問題就是農會如果都都自己願意加進去那是最好的"},{"start":3809.787,"end":3809.807,"text":"部長"},{"start":3825.429,"end":3833.154,"text":"您就齁如果您答應你就放手讓諮詢師去規劃去輔導南農中心他一下就馬上對接139個農業委員會了您來我回到這個我簡報的第4頁他們現在的規劃是什麼你看喔他的差勤人事財務管理農健保肥料競銷匯集管理電子公文系統這都是你們指導出來的喔他們現在未來給你報計畫未來這邊就會有農林榆木"},{"start":3855.73,"end":3881.29,"text":"特設基礎的這個農業的基礎資料就會進來了你就可以掌握了所以部長這個您我希望啦這樣兩個月啦好不好因為你們其實已經都在作業兩個月內把這個要支持他們整個硬體設備更換的預算跟這個雲端公用雲端系統的這個的預算跟執行時程規劃出來兩個兩個月可以嗎"},{"start":3883.649,"end":3884.15,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":3911.269,"end":3912.03,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請陳部長"},{"start":3921.613,"end":3941.226,"text":"委員長部長恭喜您謝謝有人說今天我為什麼還要再請您來做這個施政報告因為我認為本市認為新政府有新的政策新的方針所以我們慎重其事還是歡迎邀請您到這個經濟委員會來做報告所以本市首先要請教今年因為我們氣候變遷的影響"},{"start":3948.832,"end":3962.501,"text":"可以說是氣候急劇的加劇農作物的整個調整功能越來越弱因此只要碰到颱風、豪雨、乾旱農作物相對受損"},{"start":3963.422,"end":3993.422,"text":"．"},{"start":3993.923,"end":4012.463,"text":"我們只有看到說農業部常常就是會用補助來解決問題但是我相信農民要的不是這個我們要從根源去解決所以因此在農作物要適應外在的環境變動"},{"start":4013.524,"end":4013.764,"text":"我簡單的跟委員說明就是當"},{"start":4039.619,"end":4051.509,"text":"我們的作物遇到極端天候的時候有兩個方向一個方向就是它種植的地點不變但是相對的我們就要透過更精準的這些栽培技術包括品種對"},{"start":4055.132,"end":4055.372,"text":"國際事務部長"},{"start":4071.101,"end":4090.179,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":4090.419,"end":4115.251,"text":"各位農民去做這些因應的時候其實它的效果也是有限所以我們會透過集團的方式去處理對 農民很單純您講到這個重點嫩心農業以及怎麼樣去協助產銷失調這個是非常重要您是專家我願意看到您美麗的成果好嗎?你教你所預計要怎麼做調整的方向那告訴書面資料詳實給本期"},{"start":4118.814,"end":4136.234,"text":"來協助農民那據媒體5月17日的報告美國爆發的乳牛感染H5N1高病原性的禽流感HPA的疫情讓我們國內的消費者跟弱農大家好緊張"},{"start":4137.575,"end":4139.957,"text":"為了要加強農業部對已經主要的縣市養牛進行了採樣的一個檢視在5月17日你們也公布的答案是誠意信的農業部反檢署提醒養牛場一定要具備防鳥設施也叫他們不要飼養家禽"},{"start":4166.213,"end":4175.247,"text":"你們請這個農場要努力的這麼去做所以本期要請教部長我們台灣有三類的候鳥"},{"start":4178.283,"end":4205.362,"text":"三類候鳥他春夏季會來台灣繁殖夏候鳥春夏季來就是要等著繁殖夏候鳥秋冬季來呢一邊避寒這個冬候鳥跟在遷徙當中跟在遷徙當中暫時過境就像過境旅館一樣他要暫時過境休息的過境鳥台灣有這三個候鳥"},{"start":4206.363,"end":4223.763,"text":"那台灣未在候鳥遷徙的路上那你本身對於我們諾農你提供怎麼樣的防護建設怎麼樣保護接下來你是不是要抽撿美國進口的乳牛的相關產品有沒有問題請做說明"},{"start":4226.533,"end":4250.493,"text":"第一個跟委員說明就是美國所發現的H1N1本身的基因型是跟臺灣不一樣那同時我們也針對臺灣的乳牛場本身做了一些實際的一個監控所以我在這邊也要特別跟所有的消費者講我們的牛奶特別有經過殺菌的部分所以是可以安心使用的所以是放心的是放心的我希望透過媒體朋友告訴我們社會大眾對"},{"start":4251.274,"end":4252.134,"text":"因為我們的宣導得當,特別是在蛋機廠,它只有4場。"},{"start":4272.041,"end":4295.7,"text":"那相對的比往年少很多表示生物安全的防護是非常重要的這是對防護很重要那這個當然我們減少是可以加取但是一場也不要對我們也是希望這樣子然後再怎麼樣再把它導入到我們的乳牛的系統就是第三階段的部分那我在這邊也跟委員說明就是勤怒感的部分它會傳染到乳牛其實它的機會相對的比"},{"start":4297.722,"end":4320.93,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":4321.01,"end":4327.315,"text":"你不要只有叫糯農他們養牛的去防護那個鳥,他怎麼防護啊?你怎麼協助他?對啊你怎麼協助他?你不要喊一個口號人家做不到的啊!所以我們會在去那個養牛場周遭的那個環境監控我們會去做加強"},{"start":4337.603,"end":4350.332,"text":"那這樣的話,如果說有發現到可疑的這些檢體的時候那相對的我們會提出更早的一個預警機制對,就預警很重要你也請詳時將你們怎麼預備防護協助落農的書面資料給本席再給你一個議題台灣整體性的動保員編制不足本席跟你討論過了幾次你們除了讓他們資深前往"},{"start":4363.962,"end":4390.832,"text":"或者是請檢方來協助或者是外包單位來稽查但是依照我們現在的動保法除非他是有虐待動物或者是沒有辦法恢復的重傷他才有刑責那否則他只有一個行政處分大家不痛不癢的在這樣的情況之下本席也多年呼籲政府應該要落實動保警察制度的這個聲音對不對你認不認同"},{"start":4392.557,"end":4420.002,"text":"我想這個議題齁其實我們跟內政部也討論了很多啦但是因為警察的他的勤務是非常多的那在因為也是屬於內政部所管轄的但是在內政部這邊還沒有討論一個定案之前我們更希望在動保法裡面修法讓我們的動保檢察人員富有這種相關的這些職權齁能夠進到相關的場域去做一個查核這樣的話才能夠有效的去遏止相關的一個"},{"start":4420.282,"end":4428.924,"text":"你增加查核他只是必須條件你的必要條件當你發現問題的時候你可以解決這才是你目前新政府要推動的因為內政部告訴你依據大法官588號的一個廣義的警察權以及動保法第23條的規定動保員是主管機關是農業部法定的動保警察但是明明白白我們目前的機制是不夠的"},{"start":4449.068,"end":4472.607,"text":"所以這個議題因為我非常的關心所以本席也要請你將辦理設立動保警察做一個專案的來研討那內政部也應該要配合你做權力的配合所以本席希望你開始啟動動保警察專案的研議以有效的保障我們的這個機場"},{"start":4474.488,"end":4490.402,"text":"好嗎?好。你做一個專案嘛,好不好?可以,我們可以啟動一個專案去做研究,然後甚至於跟內政部...你多久的時間?我們內部相對單純啦,因為這個部分專案也就要到內政部,至少要3個月齁,才能夠有一個比較好的..."},{"start":4490.922,"end":4520.682,"text":"我們就設定在三個月啊你跟內政部趕快講我已經告訴你我也問了內政部他用大法官解釋的588漢來抵制你用你的動法法23條來抵制你這我們沒有辦法解決問題啊我覺得一個有為的政府應該是針對民眾所需執行者行政部門執行所需我們去做調整而不是矢鼓不化就拿著什麼解釋來抵制需要者那完全得不到答案"},{"start":4521.402,"end":4546.267,"text":"你認同這個方向吧?我認同好!所以你三個月內你啟動了這個專案來研議用保警察研議方案我們再來繼續討論好嗎?最後請教上一次本席請教的農業會選舉的時候會員的這個資格那麼我們也約定一個禮拜我也感謝您在一個禮拜也回覆了本席那麼你們預告了嗎?我想"},{"start":4550.404,"end":4559.752,"text":"應該可以在5月10日之前,應該6月,6月10日之前可以預告,因為方案已經出來了,然後這個禮拜會安排時間確認,那為什麼要那麼久呢?今天才5月28日"},{"start":4565.973,"end":4566.633,"text":"謝謝楊淳英委員"},{"start":4594.624,"end":4595.225,"text":"我們接下來請張祺凱委員請陳部長"},{"start":4623.669,"end":4623.89,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4628.683,"end":4653.433,"text":"我是嘉義人,嘉義最近有一個重要的事,就是阿里山阿里山是我們嘉義的競合,也是整個台灣的競合他的這個鐵道,森林鐵道是國際級的觀光鐵道7月1日馬上要全線通車了,這對整個嘉義跟整個台灣甚至吸引很多國際的旅客來台灣讓世界看到台灣是非常重要的,所以"},{"start":4654.687,"end":4677.831,"text":"第一個7月1日如期通車第二個安全也很重要所以本席的辦公室成立了阿里山光榮的團隊我們實地這幾天去勘察每一站每一站去勘察它是不是安全的柏定我給你看一下有些地方安全真的要趕快去補破網我給你看實際的勘察狀況來你看這張沒有發現那個鐵道在震動"},{"start":4683.988,"end":4704.173,"text":"保證你注意看我們阿里山的這個火車過去的時候鐵道是在震動的這是有危險的鐵道為什麼會震動?下面被掏空了上面的釘子脫落了中間的也出了狀況了上中下都有問題你看這釘子你看"},{"start":4709.475,"end":4734.179,"text":"我會跟委員說明一下鐵路經過的時候它一定要有某個程度的震動那當然沒有錯就是說如果它的震動所以它的有一些卯釘本身會有一些間隙讓它當作一個震動但是有一些我想委員所關心的是安全所以我們一定會在全線的部分就是用人力的方式去逐一的再去檢查一次"},{"start":4734.779,"end":4753.6,"text":"現在問題出在哪裡?我再給你看一次。它下面是不是被掏空了?你有沒有發現?鐵道中的怎麼樣震動的話也不應該下面被掏空嗎?你剛剛看的那個釘子,一個是下面它本身被掏空了。上面是做什麼?釘子就是要讓它固定的嘛。釘子也浮起來啦。中間就是枕木,你看。"},{"start":4754.588,"end":4769.037,"text":"整部就斷掉啦上、中、下全部都有狀況了我們一定會去通車前一定會去全線檢查我請林業保育署署長講一下這個地方我把地點給你這是半門北門車站就是起點那個"},{"start":4769.998,"end":4779.001,"text":"在北門車站附近的這個鐵道釘子浮起來中間的枕木斷掉了下面掏空了這是地雷我再給你看第二個畫面來第二個畫面是鐵橋叫到那個張老寮那個路段爬升的那個路段你看"},{"start":4800.696,"end":4819.081,"text":"不只是枕木斷掉啦,大家看這個畫面有點觸目驚心喔。下面是積水的。就是它排水出的狀況嘛。所以你看,本來這個枕木應該是整個是橫的,橫在那邊的。它已經泡了、斷掉了,而且都已經移位了。最嚴重的是它的排水。這個路斷地、這條橋。"},{"start":4831.886,"end":4850.72,"text":"我相信你們有能力可以去解決可是一定要快好不好馬上做會後可能就叫林務署的委員馬上就去巡檢一次啦這個一定是安全是一個最重要的對對對另外我再看一個阿里山的這個落實的這個問題邊坡的這個安全也是非常非常重要的"},{"start":4851.44,"end":4875.378,"text":"還記得,今年4月差一點就發生意外了你看那個石頭掉到那個中間來還好啦,有遊客很機靈下來趕快揮手可是你不能每次都靠遊客機揮手啊對不對也不能碰運氣啊所以我看你今天的報告裡面的第7頁你說要導入創新AI的技術提升災害的監測預警這就是"},{"start":4879.248,"end":4903.57,"text":"創新AI技術提升災害的這個監測系統嘛 這其實應該是 前陣子什麼都要做的事情對不對?這目前做到最後 我先給你看一下我為什麼提醒去年這個事情 你看一下 昨天就在昨天就在昨天 愛里山這個邊坡 還有落石喔 這是昨天的委員喔這是我們光榮團隊拍回來的這個畫面 昨天都還有"},{"start":4904.758,"end":4933.561,"text":"那我要問你兩個很重要的事情你本來說所謂的AI的這個邊坡的這個監測系統你現在到底做到什麼程度阿我跟委員說明喔我們現在的那個AI的監測系統大概分為兩個面向一個面向是在農業生產端一個在土石流跟大規模崩塌的潛勢區那我希望說未來不只是在兩個地區包括我之前也強調就是說相關的那個鐵路的邊坡其實我們它可能不是一個"},{"start":4934.522,"end":4934.702,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4952.463,"end":4953.804,"text":"我提醒一下,其實去年"},{"start":4983.161,"end":5007.91,"text":"陳建仁陳院長他去試搭這個無聲號的試測的時候貴燈鋼就出軌了對不對所以這個老實講這個危險都還是存在的可是我們不怕問題一定要面對問題提早發現問題趕快去解決我幫大家做個整理阿里山光榮團隊去做了實測之外發現了幾個問題第一個有些地方的枕木已經位移了稻町已經浮起來了"},{"start":5009.295,"end":5009.595,"text":"道渣跟枕木"},{"start":5030.848,"end":5054.956,"text":"一定要去全線要定期這個調查我目前瞭解你們這個時間好像拉得很長對不對能不能比較密集一點去做個檢查你不要每次發生問題頭痛一頭腳痛一腳第二個你剛講這個人工巡迴這個系統這個AI這一塊要趕快去做好不好而且你給我個報告就是你目前到底在哪些地方能不能確保這個是安全的另外另外我提一個非常非常重要的這個問題"},{"start":5056.36,"end":5068.661,"text":"每天,就像昨天發生那個問題,東西掉下來,落石掉下來,對不對?你們現在是甚麼?那個整個通報的流程是怎麼樣?時間會不會花得很多?誰去處理?像昨天我剛才在看的那個委員"},{"start":5070.325,"end":5087.121,"text":"就我們林業保育署的人員去處理的我們相關的林業保育署的同仁去處理的鐵道這邊主管機關然後是報給誰阿里山鐵道是我們管理的所以他編播的部分如果遇到有些東西也是我們同仁去處理的"},{"start":5087.941,"end":5101.45,"text":"好,OK,所以等一下我們今天下午就趕快去現場把剛剛講的問題,把它補破網,趕快把它補起來,好不好?然後另外一個禮拜內你給我一份報告,就是剛剛講的這些你要怎麼去強化,好不好?好,兩個禮拜好不好?兩個禮拜可以"},{"start":5103.407,"end":5121.118,"text":"好,兩個禮拜可以,最重要是等一下趕快去啦我剛剛跟你講的都是非常重要的尋檢一定會立刻去做而且每天會尋我們會把我們尋的那個機制跟委員說明所以包括剛才講的AI的部分包括整合防護的部分我想希望有一個更具體的一個方案是提供給委員"},{"start":5122.239,"end":5149.073,"text":"一定要拜託一下去過伊河通車的時候確保是安全的而且擦亮這個阿里山的這個光榮就是嘉義讓整個臺灣讓國際上都看到臺灣人的這個驕傲我用一點點小時間問一下上個禮拜我們做了這個雞蛋這個我要求三個東西第一個你這個影像已經有做了影像這部分你做了可是呢第二個說4月底之前你要交付報告給經濟委員會各項的這個細目結果"},{"start":5152.113,"end":5160.182,"text":"你送到本期辦公室才兩頁而已你怎麼只有送兩頁?看一下下一張你才給我兩頁啊我那天要求的是什麼?"},{"start":5161.909,"end":5188.143,"text":"第一 過期雞蛋採購的金額﹚詳細的列表﹚包括什麼﹚你的批次、進口國、數量、進口日期、到案的價格﹚我會記得你之前在做過啊﹚對﹚你應該給我這個東西啊﹚好不好﹚最新的、最新的﹚第二提供我倉儲費用裡面的各項費用的明細﹚包括年度跟批次﹚好不好﹚你不能只有給我這兩張喔﹚我跟你說齁﹚昨天國會改革方案過了﹚很多禮物都在"},{"start":5189.602,"end":5215.734,"text":"很多立委朋友都在過曝說要成立的第一個就是超時的調查專案小組了 我問問說你資料趕快給我們很完整 不會弄到後來變成是要成立一個調查小組 變成是農業部是第一個被調查的好不好 好好謝謝部長 好我們再會加油 真相要給好不好 要有真相才能夠解決問題 謝謝部長好非常感謝 你看我們張委員這麼理性問真這是屬於我們要的 也謝謝部長"},{"start":5222.725,"end":5239.87,"text":"好,接下來我們請邱毅委員請做詢答。好,謝謝莊委。我是不是請一下陳部長。我們再請陳部長。委員長。部長早。"},{"start":5251.44,"end":5261.351,"text":"首先恭喜您雖然過去幾次都在這裡以代理部長的身份來做詢問今天應該算是正式第一次是部長的身份"},{"start":5263.717,"end":5293.197,"text":"我就不問您說這個角色轉換上面其實在同一個職務上應該不會有太大的落差但是未來要做的事情看起來您應該有一些自己的想法部長首先就請教您的業務報告裡頭一直談到了未來的農業要有智慧、韌性、永續、安心這是您未來要推動的主要方向所以我首先要請教您一件事情"},{"start":5294.057,"end":5316.132,"text":"所謂的智慧這件事我們都一直講要做智慧農業包括灌溉包括施肥包括栽種等等都要把它智慧化所以我看到你們現在講說要推出一個所謂的農民數位卡對不對我可不可以請教一下到底這個農民數位卡你們要怎麼做"},{"start":5316.912,"end":5333.248,"text":"那要如何推動下去因為就我們的瞭解現在台灣的農業人口其實是年齡層是偏高的大概50到64歲這個區間是最多人那你們又說這個要往實際從農的農民先發行要從專業農民先推廣"},{"start":5336.491,"end":5351.685,"text":"那什麼叫實際從農跟專業農民這兩個的區別又是什麼那你到底要先怎麼做讓農民去認識所謂的數位卡然後進而讓他可以普及化比如53萬的農民你最少也要有"},{"start":5353.574,"end":5359.72,"text":"我想跟委員先說明幾個數據現在目前有主計總組有調查實際從事農業的人大概5至3萬人那以農保的部分65歲以下的大概36萬人所以然後在整個的農家所的統計的專業農民大概8萬人"},{"start":5377.756,"end":5397.056,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5397.216,"end":5422.115,"text":"背後的資料庫是不是已經健全了你如果沒有那個資料庫的話光那個卡是沒用的可是過去幾年其實我們農業部一直持續在相關的資料數位化的部分做得非常用心做大概現在累計了大概18個資料庫這些資料庫都有相關的農民只要跟農業有來往的這些人的資料都有你說是農會或者是產銷合作社等等"},{"start":5423.016,"end":5441.538,"text":"對,農民就是只要你有申請,包括你有申請天然災害救助,你有申請那個種稻或什麼都有那這個資料庫本身我想數位服務卡有兩個功能一個功能就是我希望說現在很多包括天然災害救助包括補助都是申請一個都是紙本然後都要非常非常久"},{"start":5442.179,"end":5459.856,"text":"然後又要做後台的勾結很慢那你如果有一個數位卡它有專屬的QR Code我如果前端能夠利用這個類似銀行的那個把人民做確認以外對 然後只要少了以後大概所有的基本資料都帶出來了"},{"start":5460.736,"end":5474.084,"text":"對,這樣的話就會很快這個是一個服務第二個部分就是您剛才所提到的就是我們會透過這個數位付費卡做一些資訊的回饋那資訊的回饋我想現階段我們會以大概以專業農那個8萬人的專業農為主因為他們的他們是集團經營的"},{"start":5478.627,"end":5506.398,"text":"那集團經營比較需要這樣的一個資訊去我們提供客製化的服務包括我們的我們基本的18個資料庫我們也會結合農地的資料庫、空間的資料庫還會結合氣象的資料庫那這樣的話對於專業農民、集團產區的這些農民能夠更能夠有系統的接收到這樣的一個訊息去調整他們的耕作的時間部長那我請教一下你剛剛講這些東西什麼時候會開始做"},{"start":5509.035,"end":5529.156,"text":"預計什麼時候能夠把它普及化出來?您剛講資料庫都已經建置完成了嘛那您的這一些您剛講的這些作為什麼時候要開始動向?我是希望明年就能夠針對幾個示範的區域位跟縣市我們會跟第一個有很多東西可能要跟縣市合作因為縣市的第一線的公所也要"},{"start":5530.057,"end":5558.307,"text":"能夠願意試用然後會跟縣市或者是相關的集團產區我們會先導入那導入的過程中其實我們也可以發現他們有哪一些需求還可以再做精進的然後正式的能夠投入的話我們是希望兩年之內就能夠正式的能夠接受願意接受來進來的然後四年之內大概會能夠達到現在實際耕作者你不用這個的時候你可能沒辦法"},{"start":5559.187,"end":5583.909,"text":"拿到任何的一個政府的一個資源我們也會有一些政策誘因去設計部長謝謝您對於這個數位卡的回覆那我接下來還想要進一步請教就是農業基本法我們現在在處理我們很多農業的問題大概都是用農發條例作為最高的指導位階那其實在2006年就已經有曾經提出過第一版的農業基本法"},{"start":5584.989,"end":5613.029,"text":"2011年政府也曾經擬定農業基本法的草案但是當時並沒有通過我剛看了一下您的這個業務報告裡頭其實對於農業基本法沒有特別提出喔那部長我可不可以請教你您自己在任的這個時間您覺得你會不會來推動農業基本法那您覺得推動農業基本法有可能會遇到的問題是什麼?您有沒有信心它可以通過?"},{"start":5614.281,"end":5639.582,"text":"我跟委員說明其實從我的構想裡面農業基本法它是一個軸心因為它是一個綱領性的一個上位政策那這個上位政策它其實它破壞了整個農業的整體的長期的方向那我們現在的施政作為都是4年的一個中期計畫你只有長期的施政方向在那邊的時候我的中期才能夠去做一些調整"},{"start":5640.262,"end":5665.147,"text":"所以農業基本法其實它是彰顯了農業的一個價值同時也彰顯了政府對農業的一個企圖心那108年當初提到行政院的時候那當初的幾個內容裡面大概是牽涉到糧食安全的確保然後包括一些農民的一個權益的保障然後包括有一部分的農村的一個發展"},{"start":5666.027,"end":5666.527,"text":"所以你們會不會提出"},{"start":5689.787,"end":5693.569,"text":"我們一定會在4年內提出來一個新的版本然後我們也會去說服對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":5715.862,"end":5736.889,"text":"是不是大家一起努力希望能夠對我也希望到時候我們提出來的時候我們委員能夠能夠來支持好謝謝好謝謝謝謝感謝也謝謝我們的召委接下來我們請鄭正前委員請做巡檔"},{"start":5745.53,"end":5749.034,"text":"謝主席。我要請教陳部長。我們請陳部長。"},{"start":5756.986,"end":5785.291,"text":"來委員長部長好5月20日之後看到你還是很開心就是那在5月20日之前的時候我那時候提了一個質詢的內容就是有關於我們南寮漁港的問題清漁的問題那這個部分清漁的問題的時候說實話你們反應也很快已經來本辦公室有說明過了可是他們提到一個點就是說上次我們在質詢的時候部長有特別承諾就是說你看到那個整個南寮漁港整個淤積的狀態"},{"start":5786.611,"end":5809.707,"text":"你也認為一次性的清瘀是重要的,你也承諾要做對不對?是那他們來的時候他們告訴我說可能要4、5年才能夠做好有沒有辦法縮短時間?那為什麼需要那麼久?可不可以請部長再詳細做一個說明?我跟委員說明,就是當你看到一個很急迫要解決的問題當然希望越快越好所以我那時候承諾說一次性能夠把它清瘀是最好的"},{"start":5810.347,"end":5810.927,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":5826.994,"end":5850.144,"text":"你們預估齁整個南寮漁港現在淤積裡面的情況大概淤沙有多少?185萬立方公尺哇實在是太匪夷所思的一個數字他沒有辦法沒有地方去根據他的那個海岸的那個防護計畫有沒有那個量體過大已經超過他能夠堆放的這個量"},{"start":5851.384,"end":5871.147,"text":"這是第一個,第二個部分就是因為南寮玉廣本身跟它的頭前溪不斷地有沒有,淤刷下來是有關聯的當你一次性地在挖的時候它會類似有一個凹洞讓上游的更快地下來所以反而就是雖然說你一次性的清淤"},{"start":5872.697,"end":5872.877,"text":"對,我們一定會"},{"start":5897.517,"end":5897.537,"text":"我應該這麼講齁"},{"start":5913.91,"end":5937.092,"text":"應該分兩個階段,一個階段是年度的例行,因為每年都有一些預計,年度的預計我就不講了但是我們現在雖然說沒有辦法一次性的把它清預,但是我也希望把它有更短的時間之內把它清預那更重要的是我們會跟源頭的頭前期這個部分看怎麼樣能夠防止它的那個河沙沖刷下來"},{"start":5938.253,"end":5966.505,"text":"這樣的話,我想短時間之內...你講這部分比較長,其實我會連續兩次質詢都特別提到南寮漁港,因為它確實對於整個新竹南寮漁港的情況實在是太嚴重了我想直接問一下,因為目前我們大概是每兩年只有2500萬,後來再提高到4900萬的一個清淤的一個計畫之後我們可以每年補助4000萬以上,可不可以先承諾這個部分?"},{"start":5968.049,"end":5968.454,"text":"我覺得齁"},{"start":5970.85,"end":5998.405,"text":"經費一定是配合它的清預量,如果清預量大於4千萬,我們都願意去來協助這個部分。大於4千萬的時候也繼續每年去補助對不對?但是那個4千萬可能只是一個原則,因為我想後續的那個經費編列我們會努力來做。好,就每年4千萬補助是一個原則,對不對?如果說有需要還可以再增加,您剛的意思是這樣子?對,如果量度說危及到整個航道安全的時候,該做的我們還是會做。"},{"start":6000.346,"end":6023.414,"text":"我在想說185萬噸的淤砂在南寮漁港其實沒有很大我們看到這照片的時候確實是非常的糟糕另外我想提一個狀態在現在我們如果每一年能夠補助至少4000萬以上的經費在這個清淤的過程當中我們有沒有辦法有一艘抽砂船"},{"start":6024.874,"end":6044.666,"text":"長期配合南寮漁港這邊的一個使用您所謂的抽刷船是我們可以委託人家來做但是因為抽刷船它需要很多的專業以我們漁業組本身沒有辦法用公務單位去處理這個抽刷船部長我問一下一艘抽刷船要多少錢"},{"start":6046.889,"end":6055.176,"text":"我 我不是很瞭解不曉得齁 我要給你一個很簡單的一個數字齁我特別去看了一下齁就是 呃"},{"start":6059.414,"end":6085.614,"text":"海洋委員會他們這邊的時候之前有很多的抽砂船扣在那邊那最近有一艘抽砂船我會看到我也很震驚他叫展勝98號噸位在2820噸結果呢他是屬於可以自吸自泄的就是說基本上操作是相對容易的結果呢船名只有12年他拍掉的金額只有688萬"},{"start":6087.915,"end":6108.898,"text":"一艘這樣的一個抽砂船只拍掉688萬我們農業部有沒有可能去跟海委會做一個溝通因為海委會覺得這個部分他們是可能會來當公務使用的他們也願意這麼去做我們是不是能跟海委會溝通把這樣的抽砂船拿來支持南苗漁港的清淤"},{"start":6110.54,"end":6133.348,"text":"部長我跟委員說明現在目前所扣的這些船大部分拍賣以後去做解體去用他有很多的使用可以使用那剛才委員所提到就是說有沒有辦法去跟那個海委會去洽談其中的一艘要拍賣的船來用來做輕魚用那我想因為我剛才說的就是"},{"start":6134.008,"end":6158.018,"text":"公部門直接去買一艘船來執行這些清淤我覺得在人力上在技術上都不可行但是我們可以去協調就是用比較低的價格就是用招標的方式就是委託相關的未來會清淤的部分我們能夠協助他來購買這樣的一個這樣的一個船來執行專案的方式所以你也表示說用船殺船來協助"},{"start":6159.699,"end":6184.377,"text":"南寮漁港在還沒有辦法一次性起運的過程當中的時候能夠維持它整個航道的一個順暢讓它港口就是不會有這麼嚴重的淤積你也同意這樣一個做法我們會去研議跟內部最主要是內政部還有一位這邊我們要跟他做一個確認是因為他們拍賣有他們拍賣的遊戲規則那有沒有辦法去好部長謝謝因為我在想說南寮漁港的情況實在是太嚴重了所以我們希望"},{"start":6185.538,"end":6209.255,"text":"就是農業部這邊的時候能夠盡最大的一個努力那我們也會持續的去跟蹤然後能夠把這個相關的問題能夠解決那我最後這邊的時候來問一個部分就是因為我有看到你在媒體當中你有特別提到說整個農業臺灣農業不是補助型的產業嘛對不對你說如果說不然的話就發發錢的時候讓那個"},{"start":6211.216,"end":6232.492,"text":"農民拍拍手就可以你講過這樣的一個話嗎?我講過那我這邊特別提到兩個一個數字啦因為我稍微看了一下我們中央政府113年的總預算稅出的部分按照職能和經濟性的綜合分類扣除掉農保職災健保補助這些跟農民漁民相關的社福支出的時候在農林漁牧業的總支出高達1715億"},{"start":6235.394,"end":6249.081,"text":"如果按照我們農業部網站的時候我國的農業就業人口大概只有50.91萬人那除起來的時候我們大概國家的時候大概每一年花在農民的資源大概高達34萬"},{"start":6252.584,"end":6265.801,"text":"相較於我們113年總預算5.85兆平均到每一個國人大概是有12.39萬相較起來說就是我們國家對於農民的一個"},{"start":6267.483,"end":6290.032,"text":"支持其實是高於全國平均的大概高達三倍那我講這個數字的時候呢並不是說我們對農民太好了不是我是要講的狀態是當你如果也意識到了說臺灣的農業不是補助型的一個農產業的時候呢我們就希望他能夠做得更好讓臺灣的農業更有競爭力我們經常在講說臺灣的農業很厲害可是我們看到臺灣的農業一年的"},{"start":6296.234,"end":6320.788,"text":"對外的進出口量的時候其實是逆差很嚴重尤其我在看到一個數字的時候是針對新南向政策當中的時候情況更糟對於整個新南向政策在農業部分的表現其實非常的不理想那我希望請部長這邊到時候給我一個更詳細的資料來告訴我們一下"},{"start":6325.39,"end":6326.551,"text":"我可不可以給我30秒就好?"},{"start":6326.551,"end":6326.731,"text":"可以"},{"start":6348.78,"end":6375.22,"text":"台灣的,剛才您所提到的就是我們農業部的總投入然後去處理人民是造成這個每一個人得到的那個金額其實我們很多農業部的補助大概都是在基礎環境的一個建設那那個基礎環境的建設就是要讓農業本身的效率更提升然後第二個部分是天然災害它不是一個補助它是一個救助現在目前直接發給農民的就是天然災害救助它是遇到天然災害的部分"},{"start":6375.76,"end":6387.41,"text":"而這個部分如果你前端不去協助他盡快復更的話其實後端的消費者他得到的這些物價的波動會更劇烈以上所以對於整個農業特別生活基金的部分還有一些相關就業基金的部分的時候我們其實也去做了一些檢討"},{"start":6403.604,"end":6421.877,"text":"我簡單講就是整個農業助業基金這幾年來的一個狀態完全是不足的部分沒有移除的部分在108年以前都是有的108到109年有一個很大的改變我想這個部分也之後再到本辦公室來做一個詳細的說明謝謝"},{"start":6428.732,"end":6430.815,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":6455.852,"end":6458.876,"text":"農民退休儲金到今年的4月"},{"start":6473.444,"end":6488.992,"text":"有10.6萬人參加農民退休儲金參加的比例31%這樣的比例你的目標是35%其實不算高是不是這樣"},{"start":6492.168,"end":6521.768,"text":"我想整個農民退休儲金在開始的時候一般我們推行一個制度開始會比較緩慢因為有些人對這個政策不是那麼認識然後也不知道政府的態度是怎麼樣子但是經過這幾年來其實他的目標量其實已經達到我們的一個預期因為現在目前農保65歲以下大概36萬人所以現在大概10萬人的部分我想達到我們當初一個設定的一個目標所以我們未來會更希望都能夠再逐步的一個提高"},{"start":6522.428,"end":6541.006,"text":"好,我們看原住民,原住民農民參加農民退休儲金的人數我們看整個這個未滿65歲繼原住民身份的農保的人數是13694人"},{"start":6545.063,"end":6565.496,"text":"那有參加提交農民儲金的原住民人數只有783人這個比例只有5.7%這個比例真的是非常非常的低我們看這個人口數最多的話這個就有"},{"start":6567.537,"end":6595.339,"text":"農保的話如果有農保的在臺東縣2845人未滿65歲的那這個他參加提繳農退儲金的人數原住民人數只有159人所以這個比例真的是差距很大所以這樣的一個也許是先導的問題也許是什麼是不是繳不出"},{"start":6596.642,"end":6611.084,"text":"還是不了解不了解就是先導先導的問題所以這個部分這個農業部這邊有什麼可以讓這個提角力能夠提高的方法"},{"start":6611.878,"end":6626.1,"text":"我想第一個就是其實農業部現在正在規劃針對原住民的一個農業的政策因為原住民其實他守護了這片山林其實他是有貢獻的但是因為原住民的部落他是分散在"},{"start":6628.002,"end":6628.102,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6647.045,"end":6675.185,"text":"因為他對於政策了解了以後他才會有加入的一個意願那這個部分我想我們未來一定會更加的一個努力好,剛才部長的回應確實非常好就是說這個事實上我們確實是比較善機啦在沿鄉地區尤其是這個山區的部分是善機這個在宣傳上如果只靠一張的文宣是沒有辦法"},{"start":6676.145,"end":6688.978,"text":"去讓農民去了解所以這個部分怎麼樣去拖過各種的管道比如說除了剛才部長所說的管道之外最基礎的"},{"start":6691.294,"end":6707.539,"text":"因為農會他也是人力有限所以怎麼樣去透過這個鄉公所鄉政公所還有這個村里長然後就是這個鄉公所"},{"start":6711.334,"end":6730.839,"text":"也有一些我們的相關的這些顏名會相關的顏家中心、家庭服務中心、家庭服務中心的他們可以多一些管道讓這個原住民的農民能夠了解,不然他這個真的是太低了,就很可惜了,對不對"},{"start":6732.439,"end":6757.737,"text":"所以這個部分就請農業部可以會同延民會去協助,來去落實接下來工糧收購這個部分我們的召委在今年的3月4日在這裡質詢希望工糧收購價能夠提高到38塊"},{"start":6760.319,"end":6781.702,"text":"當天這個部長就說要再去做研提方案 這個立法院也有這樣的一個委員會的一個結議請你們去研議所以當時部長是說一個月提出這個方案請問現在方案如何?"},{"start":6783.803,"end":6800.439,"text":"我想之前在代理部長的時候其實農業部也提了一個方案根據立法院的要求提了一個方案那那個方案我們是覺得他不適合提高供糧收購但是我在這邊也跟委員說明就是說因為"},{"start":6801.96,"end":6827.728,"text":"陸陸續續有更多的委員針對這個議題表達他的關切那其實我們共同的目標就是怎麼樣讓我們的農民還有稻農的所得確保或者提高那在這個共同目標之下我們現在正在做非常多的方案的評估公糧的價格提高只是方案之一就是一個選項但是它不是一個唯一的選項我們有沒有"},{"start":6828.388,"end":6828.708,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6849.62,"end":6868.952,"text":"政策如果確定了以後我想我們會先行政程序向跟行政院好就是抱怨然後同意了以後我們就會在適當的時間會公佈公佈之前一定會跟所有的委員做一個溝通部長這個要掌握時間我所謂的掌握時間是因為"},{"start":6870.954,"end":6895.711,"text":"現在開始要籌編明年的預算了現在開始要籌編這個行政的程序、流程、主計總署還有相關的部會、行政院、院會要通過所以這個部分是要掌握那個時間好不好?了解好,最後這個老年農民福利津貼從民國84年5月到現在"},{"start":6900.779,"end":6903.887,"text":"都還在到目前為止還在暫行條例"},{"start":6905.912,"end":6932.478,"text":"戰刑條例本來它就是一個有階段性的但是現在已經是常態了所以這個法律也要修了就不要再繼續戰刑了這直接就是一個老年農民福利津貼的條例所以這個部分這個是一個立法最起碼也要把它完成的部分可以嗎?"},{"start":6934.115,"end":6934.135,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":6952.892,"end":6952.912,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":6970.557,"end":6983.316,"text":"所以那個時候我想行政院也會通盤的去考量而且這個考量一定有它的一個衡平性跟其他的八大福利津貼去做一個衡量這是第一個要說明的第二個部分就是以農業部來講"},{"start":6985.206,"end":7002.241,"text":"農民福利津貼是一個支撐農民退休以後的生活那我們現在有了一個另外一個農民退休儲金那如果說以農民退休儲金的方式再去做支撐的時候我相信未來一定會比單純去領老農福利津貼的金額還高"},{"start":7003.542,"end":7003.562,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7035.243,"end":7058.689,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們請賴亮榮委員賴亮榮發言前剛剛署長你有回答我們政委員公糧的問題因為這個議題在藍綠白大家都非常的關心而且我們也已經做成決議已經交付到院會去準備繼續討論我們也希望不要否決多數人的一個決議這個應該要注意來我們請賴亮榮委員請發言謝謝"},{"start":7064.35,"end":7088.497,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長我們再請陳部長部長我有整個看了你的這個業務報告我想這也是過去整個8年來到現在一個延續包括未來要做的一些計畫那裡面我覺得是確實把這8年來做的一些事情跟未來想要做的事做了很好的一個延續"},{"start":7089.657,"end":7113.383,"text":"我想多數的內容我都是贊同的也認可的那我只是一個期許就是說很多同仁在做很多事的時候其實還是要加強在對外的一個宣傳特別現在的假的訊息或各方面的很多的時候往往一個小的就有可能去影響到你整個很多正面而做的很好的事情上我覺得同仁這麼辛苦做了這麼多的事還是要多努力讓外界去知道"},{"start":7114.143,"end":7140.498,"text":"我希望這個未來還要是持續的不斷加強不要讓一些不實的一些狀況去打起到了大家努力的一個成果我裡面看了一下你這一次我覺得提出來我非常認同就是說農業基本法因為做一個農業部會其實我們不管是在文化基本法、教育基本法甚至那時候我也推了海洋基本法也已經通過了甚至有各樣那我覺得農業部其實應該有一個三位的基本法"},{"start":7141.418,"end":7162.548,"text":"上位基本法出來之後那下面才有各各項的一些法律不然過去如果單靠50年的一個農法條例的一個來訂定我認為其實是不夠周年也不夠具有比較高的格局的所以部長應該也是這樣的思考下來來推動對我想謝謝委員支持農業基本法基本上他是一個綱領性的一個政策的一個法案"},{"start":7163.528,"end":7182.418,"text":"在這個農業基本資料它是以比較宏觀的角度去撥劃農業的長期的一個發展方向那有的長期發展方向的話就可以對接我們每4年的這種農業的施政的這些政策還有相關對應的這些作用法的一個制定所以它是一個引領性的一個法案"},{"start":7183.959,"end":7199.114,"text":"108年我想我們是上一次提出來的在行政院的時候就希望說能夠多溝通我們也檢視了108年那個版本裡面有幾個重點就是兩次安全的確保包括整個的一個農業競爭力的提升還有農業資源怎麼樣維護甚至於農村的發展"},{"start":7201.536,"end":7229.773,"text":"可是經過這個5年來其實實在在變化農業的環境也在變化所以相對的有很多更重要的議題包括我們怎麼樣讓年輕人能夠能夠進到農業而且願意世世代代從事農業所以農民的福利制度其實應該更有一些琢磨的空間另外農業的近鄰他可以做得更好那農業的本身的發展農村的發展其實要更上位所以我們未來會把這些"},{"start":7231.073,"end":7253.918,"text":"這些相關的新的這些思維納到農業基本法裡面因為過去來我也參與到了不管是環境基本法或海洋基本法的立法的過程所以我認為一個上位計畫出來之後會把整個此計畫定得更明確的時候其實會把整個部會的格局拉出來那我認為其實在推動上會更加有力那我也期待這樣的一個農業基本法能盡快來完成比出來盡快來完成三讀"},{"start":7254.878,"end":7278.091,"text":"我看一下你的期程,裡面你的期程是抓4年,其實4年,一屆就是4年,屆期不連續,我想最後都可能會落為來不及,我其實是希望我可以比3年為一個目標那萬一有任何的一些狀況的時候,還有機會在這一屆的立委的任內的時候把這個立法院完成三度,我認為這個對於農業部的整體發展是一個重要的事情"},{"start":7278.431,"end":7280.212,"text":"我想部長也都一直在支持的前鎮漁港的各項的一些建設"},{"start":7304.707,"end":7330.785,"text":"現在其實大家最關注的也是多功能水產品的運銷中心其他陸續都在完成那這個它進度有一些落後當然跟原物料跟人力的一些有相關我們希望這個進度上面還是要持續來追蹤那其實我更關心的一個點是在於未來之後這個起來之後它的營運一定要找到好的廠商我也講過非常多次啦那我也希望部長現在上任之後"},{"start":7331.545,"end":7354.298,"text":"未來的這個大宗運輸系統能不能進去會是一個也是一個重要的一個關鍵我覺得一個關鍵我希望未來部長一樣持續的跟院長跟保安交通部長持續溝通爭取好不好這個會對於整個捷運黃線延伸進到前鎮漁港這件事情會讓前鎮漁港的這個能不能像真的像豐州市長那樣有一個很好的發展效果也會起一個很重要的一個影響"},{"start":7355.018,"end":7380.626,"text":"對,我想謝謝委員的提醒我想那個運輸系統的進入才能夠真正的活絡那個區域我們除了會跟行政院這邊去做溝通我想我們也會跟高雄市這邊來做一個有效的溝通還有交通部還有政府都要溝通徵求到他們的共同來支持我覺得建設都是百年的建設做得好做得完整的話其實對於整個發展都有相當大的幫助遠洋漁業是臺灣最重要的產業之一"},{"start":7384.087,"end":7410.657,"text":"﹗"},{"start":7411.107,"end":7436.793,"text":"我想我們會先看它這樣的一個方案是不是已經有外國的這些廠商或者什麼有那個興趣啦我們會隨時關切這些有興趣的這些利害關係人然後看看說需要不需要說而且部長還是要去了解潛在的可能性的廠商如果你來問了各種好的潛在性的廠商都沒有意願那顯然我們的條件必須要再做一些調整好不好"},{"start":7437.693,"end":7463.864,"text":"最重要是要找到強而有能力的一個廠商那這樣的話它的發展就會非常順利如果找來的是不夠優秀、不夠強的廠商其實後面會有很多很辛苦的對 這個也是我們最擔心的好不好 這個一定不必要當政府做了這麼多努力的時候我覺得每一個環節都要把它扣減這樣才有可能讓我們期待的這樣的一個豐洲市場台灣的豐洲市場這樣的一個計畫能夠成功"},{"start":7465.205,"end":7486.923,"text":"好再來我想請教一下其實這段時間其實假訊息一直也都是農業部很辛苦的一個工作那往往很多的網路上面常常會傳遞很多假訊息那大概都是同仁去海巡去找到一些之後然後用新聞稿來發布但是我還是要強調這樣的效果其實是非常有限的然後看新聞稿非常有限你在事後去賭的那個稿非常有限"},{"start":7487.943,"end":7514.694,"text":"訴發部現在在關心這件事情包括各個單位我希望部長還是要持續的去跟訴發部跟相關部會對於平台業者他們該承擔起的責任的部分我認為應該要去做要求有很多的部分我們一看就知道那個是個假的或甚至有高度有爭議性的那其實在平台業者就應該把他給擋住了不管他是詐欺還是假訊息他的平台業者都有相關的一些責任如果他們善盡了他們責任的話"},{"start":7516.435,"end":7538.653,"text":"不會在後端就不會這麼的辛苦那造假的訊息其實是所有業者所有的大家共同都要有責任去防堵的要不然你的造假東西一堆然後網路丟了一堆然後你後面要去光整耗掉一堆人力來處理這些造假訊息然後甚至對農民產生的影響對政府的公信產生影響我認為這個都非常的不公平也都應該要及早處理"},{"start":7539.453,"end":7562.43,"text":"謝謝委員那據我所知道就是在新的內閣團隊的群組裡面其實速速發布已經在處理這一塊怎麼樣讓平台的假訊息更及早的發現特別是有一些部會首長被當作投資的對象有沒有像那樣的一個假訊息其實已經政府現在慢慢有一個速發布那邊有一個機制跟平台就對接所以我想這個部分我想"},{"start":7562.91,"end":7578.248,"text":"我意思是說請部長要跟蘇法部跟平台業者要去溝通就是說對於跟你比較有相關的大概是在於這個農業的相關的部分對一些假訊息他一出去丟出去可能會造成農產品價格的波動或農民的一些影響那這個部分應該要求平台業者要"},{"start":7579.089,"end":7581.211,"text":"總統節快要到了問一下豬肉包相關的市場這些價格部分都沒有問題吧"},{"start":7599.423,"end":7624.073,"text":"我想現在的價格,豬肉的價格大概八幾九塊上下我想大概跟去年來講差不多甚至比它還低一點,比較便宜一點那整個的一個應景的這些豬肉、雞肉包括它的增工量都會提高到百分之十到二十像豬的話可能會到兩萬兩千頭每天的部分所以這個部分我一定會確保端午節本身"},{"start":7624.773,"end":7625.394,"text":"接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做詢問"},{"start":7657.883,"end":7659.506,"text":"謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":7667.52,"end":7691.64,"text":"部長好,你在4月23日的就任記者會你說要把農業的剩餘的這些剩餘物支援化、能源化那你知不知道像我們彰化市稻米就是大宗的縣市那稻草也可以支援化,你知不知道?"},{"start":7692.842,"end":7706.22,"text":"我這裡舉例台東的那個農場有將稻草製成就是固體的燃料SRF這樣子的這是一種方式那你有沒有考慮在彰化做"},{"start":7709.642,"end":7724.462,"text":"就是種稻以後的剩餘物大概兩類一類是稻草一類是稻殼那稻殼我們現在有很多這種粗糠爐有沒有他去做燃燒的這些燃料所以這個部分我想以前稻殼還要找人家來收要給他錢"},{"start":7725.043,"end":7755.043,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7755.403,"end":7758.685,"text":"對,要分類啦,要先做分類的部分所以我們希望說去建構那樣的一個集貨的這個"},{"start":7778.939,"end":7804.066,"text":"的一個系統那這樣的話其實我們講了很久了欸其實從我第一任期裡面我們就我們現在跟彰化縣政府已經有在合作了其實有一個部分透過如果透過公所的這些回收車也好就不會浪費太多的更多的資源那我們在嘉義的東石針對農謀跟塑膠布也有一個回收機制"},{"start":7805.206,"end":7818.718,"text":"可是農作物的種類非常多所以怎麼樣子把不同的種類可以共同的集合起來能源化這是非常重要的議題我為什麼舉稻草因為其實在我們彰化也有很多的民眾他們了解了日本他們製作榻榻米的時候需要這個稻草"},{"start":7832.329,"end":7855.69,"text":"他們也希望說能夠出口台灣的稻草到日本去日本也有這樣的意願農業部有沒有辦法就這個部分做任何的協助因為如果能夠把它做成一個更高價值的東西相對的也是提高這些種稻的農民的"},{"start":7857.671,"end":7857.691,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7873.326,"end":7900.717,"text":"日本本身並沒有去宣布我們是非疫區的這些產地的時候稻草是不能輸出的因為他們怕稻草用在這些續產業的電料那我們現在正在積極的去跟日本透過那個協會兩邊的協會去處理所以是因為又牽涉到農牧的部分?對對對沒有牽涉到一些口蹄疫的非疫區非疫國"},{"start":7901.837,"end":7905.179,"text":"對,所以我們現在正在積極地尋求這一塊。那現在可以出去的大概都要加熱啦。"},{"start":7920.708,"end":7939.428,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":7939.528,"end":7963.69,"text":"我們應該要把整體的就是整個工業鏈然後怎麼樣的商業模式建立好因為畢竟一般的小農或一般的農民他是沒有辦法建構整個系統的那所以在農村的這些剩餘物的資源化以及能源化的這個課題上面我認為政府部門需要負擔很大的責任"},{"start":7964.13,"end":7985.607,"text":"因為如果大家沒有你沒有把它的商業模式建構好那讓每一個小農都成為這個商業模式裡面的一個參與者這才能夠讓整個我們的農村的永續發展可以比得上就是說比先進的國家更好是不是我想謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":7986.653,"end":8008.906,"text":"如果單純這種小農自己去做資源再利用它的效率非常低所以怎麼樣把小農串在一起變成一個大的所以我們現在在推的集團產區就是這樣的一個概念那你集團產區再透過一些有系統的運輸系統那就能夠把這些剩餘資材集結在一起那才有機會去做它的能源化材料化等"},{"start":8010.077,"end":8026.105,"text":"我還有一個問題就是陳吉仲是農業部的前部長所以我相信他一定非常了解你們的情況他說臺灣的農業的重電都是用來賣的而不是農業致用的那這個問題怎麼改善"},{"start":8033.134,"end":8049.139,"text":"我想現在這個牽涉到本身的使用到農地的本身的光電的產生的電他是賣給台電然後台電再送到依照他的需求就做調節但是有一部分的"},{"start":8051.092,"end":8074.793,"text":"光電它是可以自用的。那這個部分我想未來農業部會推的特別是在漁村。漁村不管你是屋頂型的或是你在這邊有一些產製除消的這些光電我們希望是能夠在漁村自用。這是我們努力的目標。那相對的現在的漁電共生本身的光電都是送到台電去等於賣電的部分。"},{"start":8075.919,"end":8076.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8100.156,"end":8120.325,"text":"會不會造成文革的收成不好?因為畢竟文革是一個非常敏感的水產品有可能會就是不曉得有時候水溫的高低或者是不曉得是氣溫的變化太大都有可能影響到產量"},{"start":8122.025,"end":8140.28,"text":"現在陸域的風機會不會造成影響?我上次要求水事所希望他可以做相關的評估報告我跟您說明那個報告我們跟平科大已經在做研究了因為他們有低頻的研究所那低頻有時候對我們人不一定可能影響跟對於"},{"start":8141.601,"end":8142.162,"text":"我想我們會堅持"},{"start":8165.094,"end":8165.955,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢答"},{"start":8191.77,"end":8214.297,"text":"主席我想請陳部長我們再請陳部長我們中間中場不休息所以請畢位人士如果要身體管理的請自行處理部長昨天本院三讀通過國會改革法案那這其中有一件事情跟農業部是息息相關部長您知道是哪一件事情嗎"},{"start":8215.785,"end":8219.668,"text":"主要是這個雞蛋的問題就是說2022年農委會由續產會自巴西日本進口了大量的雞蛋後續被爆出資本額只有50萬的一人公司竟然可以接下1.75億雞蛋的進口案那到底呢"},{"start":8240.306,"end":8266.916,"text":"就是讓人民非常的好奇總計有近6億的雞蛋專案進口到底都是哪些公司在進口那竟然就是都以機密為由拒絕提供就多次像這個農業部調閱進口的詳細資料那農業部也都拒絕提供本席在此再請問部長雞蛋進口的資料真的是國家機密嗎?"},{"start":8267.876,"end":8292.491,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明當初去年3月的時候專案忌口農業部是委託中央巨產會去執行這樣的一個任務那在相關的這些資訊的部分我在歷史的委員會都提到只要是農業部能夠拿得到的我們一定會提供但是有時候會牽扯到一些合約上面的一些雙門本身"},{"start":8293.151,"end":8293.872,"text":"人民納稅的血汗錢買雞蛋"},{"start":8315.231,"end":8338.103,"text":"是哪些廠商負責．跟哪些廠商買．國會不能監督．人民不能過問．這樣會不會太荒謬．所以本席在這裡還是正式的再次要求．農業部應該把雞蛋採購的相關細節提供給本委員會部長您同意嗎我想第一個部分合約的部分在去年那個"},{"start":8339.224,"end":8340.165,"text":"所以可以再一次提供給本委員會嗎?是不是?請部長"},{"start":8359.033,"end":8367.958,"text":"另外本席也想再請問一下部長就是說部長今天早上說蛋價要下降要下調這一點可以請部長解釋一下為什麼嗎我沒有說蛋價要下調"},{"start":8373.669,"end":8388.625,"text":"有啊報紙都出來了啊報紙全部都出來說部長建議要調降蛋價不是我說現在的雞蛋的產地價格已經比去年的最高點已經降了大概10塊是那相對的因為"},{"start":8389.446,"end":8410.08,"text":"因為雞蛋現在的需求比較少一點所以相對它有點減我是希望消費地消費地零售的這些雞蛋的價格你這樣突然一講你會造成蛋農的恐慌欸是消費地本身因為它的雞蛋的產地價格已經比最高的已經降到10塊但是並沒有反映到消費端"},{"start":8412.159,"end":8415.322,"text":"所以我希望消費端的雞蛋對對就是消費地的雞蛋對我不知道哪個委員寫錯哪個記者寫錯我想我們後續會盡快的澄清趕快去澄清那農業部編有友善環境"},{"start":8431.658,"end":8447.582,"text":"這個植物保護資材補助的計畫透過補助來鼓勵農民使用生物農藥但是跟去年一樣大概在今年年中左右經費就會用完了那去年這個計畫其實7、8月的時候有再增列經費讓農民申請請問部長這個計畫今年是不是能夠再增列經費呢?"},{"start":8453.323,"end":8479.213,"text":"我想第一個就是生物農藥跟生物肥料本身是我們一直要推的有剩環境的一個重要制裁那我們年度編列的預算大概是6100多萬左右我們會根據就是下半年我們會根據實際的需求如果說它有必要去增加的時候我們就會 確實有實際的需求本席現在已經接受到非常多的農民說他們想要申請可是計畫的經費已經用完了那現在怎麼辦呢"},{"start":8481.994,"end":8508.022,"text":"下半年的經費怎麼辦呢?我跟委員說明就是我們原度的預算我們到某個時間點如果已經快要結束的話就會先暫停因為我們沒有辦法一直花然後還沒有經費來源就先花超過了那本席在這裡建議部長明年度這個經費一定要提高這個經費可見就是不夠嘛所以另外呢部長我還想要請問你公糧收購的價格公糧收購"},{"start":8511.463,"end":8538.834,"text":"您在520之前說520之後會定案請問您最後的決定如何可不可以在這裡做下一個記錄我想到目前為止我們正在做更完整的一個配套的一個措施我想我們委員跟我們農業部其實目標是一致的就是希望我們的稻農希望我們農民所得能夠提高能夠確保這是共同的目標那提高公糧收購是一個手段之一"},{"start":8539.774,"end":8564.36,"text":"我們是不是還有其他的手段粉絲非常了解你的立場就是說這幾天你接受了媒體專訪你說要提供公糧收購價格是提供這個農民收入的一個辦法但不是最好的辦法你要鼓勵農民去做氣做生產去做品牌去經營市場我不是不理解不是不了解你的看法但是我有一個感覺你知道台語有一句話叫做就是說拿公糧收購來"},{"start":8569.301,"end":8575.182,"text":"形容這個部長的看法我想就是你鼓勵去企作嘗試去做品牌經營市場這個都是利益良好的事情但你有沒有想到說有更多的農民尤其是傳統慣性農業的農民他們只仰賴保駕收購當作是一個底線本席今天就是在替這些最弱勢沒有能力去經營品牌"},{"start":8594.266,"end":8594.286,"text":"部長："},{"start":8615.081,"end":8623.348,"text":"我想我能夠充分的瞭解委員所提到的照顧這些大概10%全部繳公糧的這些稻農但是相對的當我們去看這個產業的時候我們要看整體的產業的進步性但是公糧收購價格跟契作價格是連動的公糧收購價格提高契作價格也會提高鼓勵農民契作跟提高公糧收購價格其實是沒有衝突的除非你的立場是要保護糧商"},{"start":8644.784,"end":8660.488,"text":"現在保護糧商不要花更多的錢去買 這才是問題所在嗎我還是很清楚的跟委員講 我們正在做所有的方案的一個評估並精算它的一個措施 那您剛才講的就是說假設這個企作的價格是高的"},{"start":8663.829,"end":8685.103,"text":"就算公糧收購價格提高了也不影響企作所以看待一件事情其實是有很多面向的一個政策當然會有利有弊人家說在人在公門好修行部長看向企作品牌稻米產業時請你也要同時兼顧最底層最基層的這些稻農的生計"},{"start":8685.723,"end":8685.743,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":8715.492,"end":8716.893,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員"},{"start":8751.003,"end":8775.51,"text":"主席好,首先有請我們陳部長。我們再請陳部長。部長、部長。部長、部長。首先跟你恭喜、尊賜。其實你代理部長期間也表現得不錯,很務實、很實際的在處理所有的農業問題。"},{"start":8777.421,"end":8796.988,"text":"那今天我執行以前剛剛信用委員有談到光電合作的問題那我本來是很反對光電在農地上做光電但是我看到蓋的矮矮的話把警官都破壞掉了那我也很好奇"},{"start":8798.004,"end":8823.714,"text":"我朋友就邀我投資了一些我就去投資了一些他這個蓋得高高阿裡面是種植食材而且種植得非常成功五分地的土地可以種到9到12萬公斤這樣五分地一年成利潤是90萬而且他跟在地的農會農會配額銷到由農會轉出去的"},{"start":8828.312,"end":8848.77,"text":"我想從反對農地種觀點但是真的把農業種出來的時候我覺得要鼓勵你有興趣的時候我帶你們去參觀一下種得非常成功所謂臺灣的農業科技也是真的有一套"},{"start":8849.871,"end":8874.549,"text":"所以這一點如果能在大力的推展的話我相信對付極端氣候還有那個菜的穩定啊會幫忙非常大啊你看法怎麼樣我想我們現在的光電本身在農地上面就是在溫室齁溫室附屬這些光電其實它的成功率非常高而且它的收益也會更好"},{"start":8875.117,"end":8903.402,"text":"我覺得要這樣子來推展才有效要蓋的低低的啦那種都是只有想要用電來賺錢啦他這個電可以賺那個融資和物也可以賺到錢這才是互蒙其利好不好這一點我帶你去參觀一下要大力的推展那你在代理部長期間也答應了我很多的事情"},{"start":8905.178,"end":8927.455,"text":"那裡面有龍鳳漁港漁獲直銷中心改建的設計費970萬還有我們各漁港的清漁費用2900多萬將近7000萬到現在都還沒下來還有我到下鄉的時候每一個人問我到底有沒有我說520以後就有啦"},{"start":8930.06,"end":8952.531,"text":"你這個會員敢請我完整嗎?我跟委員報告,你剛才說的這些融物漁館的整體的那個規劃跟他的一個,那補助的,他補助673萬他們結案報告都結案了,都提出來,所以我們有補助,不是沒有然後第二個部分,針對這個整體規劃其實我們基本上是同意的,那在同意的過程中"},{"start":8953.311,"end":8958.338,"text":"他有分期分階段嗎?不是,我先講社區費用社區費用有嗎?老闆這三萬已經提供了"},{"start":8962.523,"end":8973.166,"text":"應該是673萬嘛。673萬啊。九百多萬嘛。673萬。你怎麼給我減三分之一,我不知道要怎麼完成。我們來對一下,對一下。總經費可能是高包幾萬,但是農業部不是全額補,因為地方政府,大家分攤一下嘛。分攤苗栗比較重,這樣分攤三分之一也受不了啦。"},{"start":8988.251,"end":9004.582,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9004.941,"end":9025.141,"text":"主委在推動的時候苗栗沒有生存到那我覺得這個很重要那我們中東景縣長為了推動我們苗栗的能量物流大概要花1億的經費去買土地買土地的時候您這個能量物流拜託拜託給我們完成一下好不好"},{"start":9025.763,"end":9041.9,"text":"我跟委員報告就是第一期的冷鏈計畫在今年度結束嘛那今年度的預算大概因為很多冷鏈都是分年編列的那我們今年我們也提報了從114到117年我們提了第二期的冷鏈計畫"},{"start":9044.36,"end":9045.621,"text":"好 我拜託 請你幫我完成 我會很感謝你"},{"start":9067.509,"end":9092.672,"text":"那你這來進上的新聞那這邊有一篇中國時報的報導說你身段柔軟、務實理性你自有心中一把旗你不是股市的部長你微笑我們兩個個性差不多一樣都這樣 喉嚨撥起來在這裡面我把它看了"},{"start":9093.513,"end":9111.07,"text":"你的報告也寫了務實你有外部挑戰、內部挑戰我把它仔細看了一下確切實實的問題在這個地方但是我現在跟你講臺灣的農業問題會面臨到非常重大問題就是外來的農產品進來"},{"start":9112.972,"end":9130.37,"text":"因為我們以前是開發中的國家我們為了經濟雙邊貿易、多邊貿易、CPTPP我們自己宣稱我們已開發的國家那未來的規格就會像歐美、美國、日本、新加坡、澳"},{"start":9131.431,"end":9156.742,"text":"做紐西蘭一樣,農產品的進口裡面會大量的增加好好的營養只會我們不加制那些團體我們為了加制大概農業產品都是最低的程度沒有保護到沒有辦法保護到臺灣的農業所以你要先有營養這我第一點要提出來時間有限"},{"start":9158.595,"end":9171.427,"text":"那第二點剛剛談到公娘的收購你這個人老實不實我喜歡但是公娘的收購正如我們召委剛剛幾個委員在談"},{"start":9173.117,"end":9198.568,"text":"拜務上長通貨膨脹你農民不給氣了你說你反對我覺得這個你要考慮你部長要做的就好好考慮這樣我有看到你幾篇的報導我特別把它讀過但是有些是政治性的問題農業也是政治性的問題你官員要求好好思考這個問題那你如果覺得農"},{"start":9200.174,"end":9218.646,"text":"那個工糧收購架構提到大家會去種,你雜糧就補製多一點嘛,平衡一下,卡布瓦能解決,一定要好,好地思考這個問題。你要太固執喔,不然你工會做不久,我跟你講農民都反對你,你院長總統也做不了好不好。"},{"start":9221.708,"end":9238.578,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我想我們會非常務實的去研擬那個方案好不好,好好的務實不要得罪農民像我們到那個地方我們都跟農民低頭了他們講什麼我們都要全力解決都是講好的還有一點"},{"start":9240.027,"end":9268.38,"text":"農村再生條例有一些不同黨派議員說什麼這個立法院輕視到公權力但是保證我告訴你我們有人都是精益其外敗事其中公路局我們的公路我們市區道路做得非常好但是我們農路真的破破爛爛在開車在跑農路的時候要打手機的支持區我都會抖"},{"start":9269.798,"end":9285.889,"text":"所謂來講你永遠一個觀念全不要怕都市做了太多了農村要照顧所以農村再生條例你永遠記得交通部有生活圈系統他是都市區外的"},{"start":9286.8,"end":9287.581,"text":"我們會努力的"},{"start":9312.908,"end":9324.942,"text":"講的到這個時候有很多問題要請教你看你的報告仔細讀你的業務報告之類我們農業未來面臨很多的挑戰務實去解決"},{"start":9327.355,"end":9327.495,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":9356.806,"end":9364.354,"text":"接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答大家辛苦了"},{"start":9389.076,"end":9393.318,"text":"好謝謝主席請那個陳部長我們再請陳部長部長農業環境基本給付面積是今年11月186點上半年轉做棄作面積是5.8生產會計3.1那你針對農業環境基本給付的是針對是非非非都"},{"start":9419.258,"end":9419.278,"text":"現在會爐齊嗎?"},{"start":9449.005,"end":9468.86,"text":"沒有,現在我們大家一起在努力朝這個目標前進你了解你有參與我覺得好像會不會延期啦會,裡面是有一些很多配套的作用法要處理配套沒有完成你如期上路的話可能會造成很多的負面影響是有可能造成一些影響那我想請教說你現在只針對這個一般農業區對不對非洲的這個拓地農業區跟一般農業區他有針對這個幾戶那一年大概兩次各5000塊"},{"start":9476.986,"end":9491.904,"text":"那你未來我希望說是不是可以針對都市計畫區、農業區或非都的山墨地、百貨區、核酸用地這些部分你也可以有相關的這個給付我想這樣子因為"},{"start":9492.825,"end":9502.512,"text":"現在的農一農二已經劃出來的那農一農二如果說已經框了一些都市計劃裡面的農業區的部分我們會優先考慮因為以後可以對接會一定會一定會現在目前大概變也是一樣嗎?也是5000嗎?"},{"start":9512.56,"end":9535.468,"text":"我們現在是一起五千,那後續我想...不是,我要先跟委員說明喔當國土計畫上路農一農二的話,我們所有的政策的資源的投入會以這個為集中點甚至於有一些...就是打破所有非都,或者是一般農業區,或者都市計畫區的農業區打破這些,你用農一農二來做補助嗎?"},{"start":9536.748,"end":9560.245,"text":"對,然後那個政策一定會加碼,因為我要確保那個農地本身的農業部分所以農一農二就包括都市計劃區、都市計劃的農業區嘛,對不對?沒有,它有一部分看縣市政府劃的部分所以你要等你要配合這個這個國土計劃法上路之後再去調整嘛對那幾戶進而是也是一起五千,全年是對,現在是這樣子,但是後續一定會去調整,因為我們已經對外承諾"},{"start":9561.765,"end":9587.418,"text":"假設他會延期我是希望說針對都市計畫農業區我們會去專案檢討假設他要延期兩年再實施上路你對這部分我希望說我們就會專案去檢討如果你財源足夠的話你如果沒有辦法抓五千你也可以所以不用說四千、三千也可以考慮對,我們會用差異性的去處理這個議題用專案的方式"},{"start":9588.82,"end":9597.167,"text":"另外今天媒體有報導說蛋價滯銷、蛋價降、蛋價降然後它也是滯銷 那個有沒有什麼相關的做法?"},{"start":9598.389,"end":9625.86,"text":"我想剛才那個有委員提醒我說那我現在一個重點就是說因為現在目前的蛋大概是2420萬顆比罐還多所以我們現在是希望在雞舍的部分他能夠做一些老母雞的一個淘汰我知道那你我這我都了解啦你蛋自銷有蛋旺季嘛對不對像是這個蛋季然後這個主要他的成本高居不下是不是有這個問題"},{"start":9627.06,"end":9635.845,"text":"事料成本的部分他的事料成本齁我今天早上特別去看了一下現在的玉米跟大豆的成本大概是"},{"start":9639.304,"end":9659.131,"text":"我希望因為這個蛋商這個對飼料成本他有意見他說飼料成本太高我希望你做一個平台把蛋商這個把這個飼料業者也找來看看問題出在哪裡看他們的協議把這個比如說飼料成本把它降低來減少他的成本嘛"},{"start":9659.431,"end":9671.43,"text":"我跟委員說明今天早上我已經請畜牧師去找這些飼料工會的部分看看他們在整個的飼料成本的計算上面有沒有調降的空間因為過往已經降了26%了嘛你最"},{"start":9674.625,"end":9674.885,"text":"三方都協調．"},{"start":9690.786,"end":9706.233,"text":"報言的計劃已經核定了現在的是在執行細節第一個執行細節就是要花多少錢去我們漏農我們原報的是29億那行政院核定的是18.6億那其中差的是一個"},{"start":9707.253,"end":9718.738,"text":"就是除料有沒有,清除料的一個補助,那清除料的補助我們用另外一個方案來處理那另外一個就是學用來的補助我希望部長,你現在已經從代理變真廚了,你要為弱農著想"},{"start":9730.728,"end":9753.707,"text":"好另外這個農業政策的建議書你知道那個中研院我們在去年有公布的農業政策建議書未來也會變成你農地政策白皮書的相關的重點也會變成這個與外推動農業基本法立法的重點對不對對參考依據是好你這個"},{"start":9755.527,"end":9780.737,"text":"這些單位包括國科會環境部也有針對這個氣候變遷的應用法他有一些報告那萬一未來低溫可能狀況比較少高溫的狀況比較會普遍高溫對這個沿海養殖的魚種對文革是不利的但是對虱目魚是有利的你怎麼樣而且整個烏魚的漁獲量會因為漁場"},{"start":9783.078,"end":9783.359,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9799.941,"end":9821.486,"text":"跟農的部分還有魚的部分在討論特別是高溫的天數或頻度比較高的時候有些魚種會比較有利所以它的那個產區的位移可能要預先做準備那第二個部分就是沿海的部分它本身的漁場的監控那更加重要因為它往北移的時候到底移到哪邊"},{"start":9821.986,"end":9822.186,"text":"農民數位卡"},{"start":9838.943,"end":9854.295,"text":"農民數位卡的部分我們這樣子齁其實我們過去兩年在18項的那個農業關聯資料庫已經建立了那我們現在正在串接我們的農地的資料庫跟氣象的資料庫那我們會發行的不是實體卡是一個數位卡"},{"start":9855.914,"end":9876.24,"text":"這個數位卡的部分會跟網路銀行一樣第一個功能就是他的服務就是分兩個變相以後農民到公所去申請的時候其實少了他的專屬QR Code的時候他的基本資料跟他過往所種植的東西他會馬上呈現不用重新用紙筆填"},{"start":9877.04,"end":9877.18,"text":"農電2025會不會跳票?"},{"start":9892.194,"end":9906.599,"text":"我們因為農電的部分是整個政府的大政策我想我們會盡努力的去你的目標是2025達到9GW對不對9G嘛對那你現在達成率是多少現在大概是38啦38差不多38左右不到4喔"},{"start":9908.079,"end":9910.5,"text":"第一個部分就是現在不是地缺的問題"},{"start":9925.704,"end":9949.772,"text":"現在是就是農民在整個區域裡面有的農民願意配合有的農民不願意配合所以光電業者在跟農民的協調上面產生了很多的問題那另外一個部分就是他養殖的一個事實所以我們現在會重新去啟動一個機制就是光電下的這些養殖有沒有機會用集團栽培的方式由漁卿來協助"},{"start":9952.653,"end":9976.925,"text":"這個幾個方式、四大建議有很多媒體都有相關的研究那農業進入的路徑很明確對不對?然後呢小規模漸進來推展然後以地方創生為本那農電為地方創生來加值嘛這幾個方式都已經幫你提出了solution我希望針對這些solution你們趕快去研究怎麼樣去達成嘛那另外農地沒有人跟啊"},{"start":9977.705,"end":10005.421,"text":"缺工啊 這個狀況非常特別 你們要怎麼樣去把這個煤核的調度能夠加強你市場面積不斷上升嘛 但農業、農戶人口逐漸下降 這個狀況怎麼處理我想分兩個面向啊 一個面向是季節性的缺工 我們用能力來處理對 但是我們現在會更積極地用農事服務業 去來協助他的一些合配比率供不應求啦還是"},{"start":10006.348,"end":10031.184,"text":"我們現在是一萬兩千人,台河大概將近八千人還不到,還有四千個名額在那邊那四千名額主要是真的哪些產業?沒有,農糧的申請比較多,其他的反而申請的比較少是不是你推廣不夠,有很多人跟我反映說他這個都缺工都找不到,比方說這個漁業缺工啊,養殖業也缺工啊"},{"start":10032.489,"end":10052.03,"text":"我們漁業給他的名額他並沒有用完那是不是推廣不夠啊為什麼有很多人說這個根本已經移工還不夠不過移工本身可能有一部分是牽涉到後端的管理跟居住的問題那這個部分我想我們會更積極的去協助所以從112年到現在人口已經移工人數1.2萬對不對1.2萬目前是足夠的"},{"start":10055.339,"end":10071.928,"text":"大概合了將近8000人還有4000人因為你門檻太高啦你門檻太高所以就沒有辦法他有資格去申請這個移工嘛所以我認為說你門檻適度做調整一下就滿了"},{"start":10072.688,"end":10073.188,"text":"接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢問"},{"start":10106.846,"end":10107.308,"text":"謝謝趙偉請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":10116.653,"end":10139.21,"text":"午安好部長恭喜你520之後你正式成為蔡政府的首位農業部長那本席也期許你未來對我們提升我們臺灣農業的這個競爭力有所貢獻那在521的時候你特別也有召開我們農業政策的這個願景的一個記者會你特別提到就是"},{"start":10140.111,"end":10162.265,"text":"我們的整個農業的發展在農業發展條例的你還要發展我們農業的基本法那農業的基本法在2011年的時候那時候就已經有送行政院這個草案了那但是經過了這個13年你現在提出來了這個基本法那這個基本法跟我們的農業的這個發展條例有什麼不一樣呢"},{"start":10162.785,"end":10175.76,"text":"我想第一個要跟委員說明的就是農業的基本法最近一次提示在108年提到行政院那行政院那時候是說希望有更多的一個溝通那第二個部分就是"},{"start":10178,"end":10205.66,"text":"農業現在農業發展條例有許多他是牽扯到有點作用法的部分有一部分是作用法但是農業基本法他是一個比較上位的綱領性的政策的法案他最重要就是撥劃我們整個臺灣農業的未來的一個方向那有了這個方向以後後面的每4年的中期計畫就能夠follow這樣的一個政策去做滾動的檢討然後配套的法案也可以因為這個上位的基本法有的時候"},{"start":10206.34,"end":10225.753,"text":"所以部長這個基本法跟這個發展條例的位階可能就是不太一樣一個是執行方面一個是一個是一個是對所以我看到可能會比較多的一些文字那在這個細節的部分應該要有一個專案再把它說清楚這樣子會比較明瞭對我們後續我想農業基本法基本上過去在108年討論了幾個議題那經過了5年其實有更多的新的議題必須去融入的"},{"start":10235.379,"end":10260.897,"text":"那這個部分我想我們一定會在盡快的最短的時間之內重新去整理完了以後然後對外去做一些說明然後跟農業基本法所以應該就是用我們的專法來處理讓很多的方向會更加的明確讓大家更加的明瞭好不好我們期許這兩個是不一樣的不然的話我們農業的發展條例就等於是退場就不需要了用基本法是不是"},{"start":10261.277,"end":10287.598,"text":"不是,一個是上位的政策的法一個是作用法對,我會把它講清楚好,OK那現在我們要講的就是我們的農業人口的老化這個問題你看從2018年到2023年一直逐漸的減少在這個減少那整個排名在工作上為什麼這個會減少我們的年輕人不要重農這就代表這整個在我們的工作這在19個產業當中它是倒數第二的"},{"start":10291.161,"end":10300.011,"text":"在這種情形之下我們要怎麼樣幫助我們的農業可以更加的年輕化所以你們有提出來的一鄉鎮這個農業的這個服務團這個服務團來做代耕的工作"},{"start":10306.519,"end":10331.722,"text":"那所以主委你本身也是在我們基層起來應該都很了解在農業的工作上很多會老年化就是因為年輕人不要做那年輕人來做的話我們現在年輕人都是比較數位啊有智慧啊或比較精緻化對不對那這就是要借重於我們的機器啊比如我們的機具啊農耕的機具在這方面的話是不是你在這方面有特別的一個補助方案呢"},{"start":10332.262,"end":10352.936,"text":"我想我們一定會有一些特別的政策誘因那很重要的一個就是我們也調查了很多現在的青年人會回鄉有一大部分的原因是家中有他的年紀比較長的所以我怎麼樣讓年輕人進來其實農村的支持系統是很重要的"},{"start":10353.556,"end":10355.478,"text":"最重要農民要提高他的收入"},{"start":10370.094,"end":10371.095,"text":"對,農機具的部分我想我們會透過這種農事服務業或是大的集團產權去處理"},{"start":10397.518,"end":10422.79,"text":"像我們桃園就已經有青農團了,他們就有代工了所以這方面請主委再更加的深化更加的去努力來輔導他們讓他們能夠青年能夠返鄉耕農也能讓青農能夠有所發展穩定的收入是非常的重要接下來想討論就是主委特別有提到這個漁電共生漁電共生最主要是地主"},{"start":10423.77,"end":10450.84,"text":"還有太陽能的產業還有一個就是養殖業我們現在看到整個條例裡面的發展地主跟養殖業必須他們都是有租地的問題那如果說養殖業會不會被犧牲的問題這就很重要因為如果說地主要把這個土地租給光電的產業的話那養殖業他如果不簽約他不同意的話"},{"start":10452.06,"end":10466.375,"text":"就會被犧牲掉了是不是這樣子?我想其實您講得非常對就是現在光電業者有一個關卡就是光電業者、養殖業者跟地主之間的認同跟他的一個意願"},{"start":10467.476,"end":10484.649,"text":"所以我們有一些相關的規範指引在做這個部分第二個部分更重要就是說我們也擔心就是說光電業者一開始說我要種我會種什麼種什麼講得很漂亮可是當你光電一送電以後他就不理他了所以我們有後面的這些集合的團隊"},{"start":10487.151,"end":10487.932,"text":"我們現在有一個比較好的一個一個輔導團隊去做一個我們有一個檢核表齁"},{"start":10502.975,"end":10502.995,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":10522.006,"end":10545.091,"text":"而不是一對一,現在都是一對一那一對一的困難度會比較高那未來如果說光電板下的這些餘溫能夠用集團經營、共同經營的方式那相對我覺得是一個雙贏的政策所以主委我本期要提醒就是你要重視到這個養殖業的工作權你現在今天講的是餘電共生你這個共生不能名存實亡"},{"start":10545.851,"end":10547.232,"text":"接下來我們請陳培宇委員請發言"},{"start":10574.33,"end":10574.51,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":10586.44,"end":10606.139,"text":"好部長早安我就快速跟你討論你知道我每次來都是要問你關於這個養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫至於在臺灣的學童乳的規劃那我想部長我們就直接切入重點之前您跟我說在5月20以後會有進一步的消息那我們在今天的業務報告裡面也看到113到116年的養牛產業轉型計畫的重點那我想要問一下"},{"start":10610.663,"end":10636.538,"text":"因為目前學校營養午餐即將要開標各個縣市相關標案要開始進行那目前關於營養午餐當中提供學童鮮乳的這個部分或是保酒乳的部分目前的規劃進度是?我跟委員說明就是因為學童營養午餐本身我們要會前教育部送行政院那我們現在教育部部長還沒有簽字那那個國教組是希望說我們針對於"},{"start":10638.759,"end":10659.184,"text":"這個血統乳的配送的細節先確認以後他們才要簽字所以我已經請我們的畜牧師盡快的跟國家養殖署去處理那一個最大的原則是我不要讓說我只供應血統乳那由任由大廠去供應讓這個吃去因為我們最主要是我們當時是為了臺灣的臺灣的這些"},{"start":10661.485,"end":10682.203,"text":"稍後的這些弱農的產業是是是所以我的一個原則就是說我怎麼樣讓這個小農的弱農的牛奶是可以供應到雪凍雪凍乳的部分那如果每一個小農都自己去做加工的那個保修乳那成本太高所以我怎麼樣去做一個平台讓他們也許有一個"},{"start":10683.244,"end":10699.435,"text":"從收集牛奶到之前加工、過程、運送甚至於我會去設計就是你拿血統乳的價格跟你拿大腸的價格是不一樣的因為大腸本身的價格是比較便宜的"},{"start":10699.815,"end":10718.644,"text":"但是我們當時其實是為了協助臺灣的落農產業所以這個部分看起來應該還有一些工作在進行那我們就這樣直白的問好有沒有機會在今年營養午餐開標之前或者是可能還要再往後延後好了我想我們就比較務實的來看我覺得我的目標就是9月就可以開始但是相對的就是"},{"start":10719.344,"end":10736.839,"text":"有一部分我們儘快跟教育部通過他如果說會嫌報行政院的話我就會先跟行政院那邊就做專案報告取得認同這樣的話速度會比較快好那這個部分我想我們辦公室也很樂意協助農業部跟教育部跨部會的溝通會議好不好"},{"start":10739.42,"end":10758.607,"text":"接下來下一個部分要跟農業部請教其實我們一直在跟農業部談關於地方創生遇到這個食材處理的問題那我們今天就以零下經濟的作物為例那其實農業部從2019年4月就開始推動零下經濟而且陸續開放在地特色作物可以做成相關的產品"},{"start":10759.447,"end":10780.356,"text":"獲得相關的商業利益：協助很多的地方社區部落村莊或是農民團體有非常非常多收益是從林下經濟來的可是我就直接說其實林下經濟你們目前把相關的作物清單有100多項有列出來可是其中最有爭議的目前遇到很大困境其實老葉我想部長你也非常清楚"},{"start":10780.776,"end":10807.911,"text":"我們就不再多說下一頁可是我們也我們辦公室自己也跟食藥署開過會議了確實在這個平台上只要遇到食品原料整合查詢平台就會出現相關問題我時間有限我想是不是就拜託農業部接下來我們繼續花力氣跟食業跟食藥署溝通跟衛福部溝通協助農業部想要推廣這些零下經濟的作物一旦日後開發成產品或是相關餐廳的菜色他不會遇到再次被檢舉再次被開罰的問題"},{"start":10811.121,"end":10829.131,"text":"我想我們一定會積極的跟衛福部溝通但是那個溝通非常不順利我很坦白講因為他要的就是我要舉證安全性那任何一個產品的安全性一做就是兩年但是很多國外的文獻有沒有其實它已經可以使用了"},{"start":10829.951,"end":10848.864,"text":"這個不只是零價經濟喔,很多原住民的傳統食材也遇到這樣的問題,所以我們我想我會跟新的衛務部的部長或是相關的同仁我們再積極的去協商有沒有什麼樣的方法要符合安全,符合衛務部的規定,但是也會讓我們的那個期間會加快"},{"start":10849.569,"end":10870.337,"text":"對,因為我不好意思主席再給我30秒意思就是說相信部長我非常認同部長您剛剛願意開誠布公的說確實有很大溝通上的困難可是我們絕對要贊許農業部願意開發零下經濟或是相關的這些產業文化的推進協助農民可是遇到跟食藥署這邊的溝通我們當然認同食安食安非常非常重要"},{"start":10870.737,"end":10891.755,"text":"所以如果你們在跟衛福部這邊跨部會溝通有問題我想我們辦公室也願意積極的協助甚至是不是我們有機會召開公聽會或是座談會大家一起坐下來好好想個辦法到底如何確保食人、國人的食安但是又可以促進零下經濟相關產業的發展好不好好非常謝謝委員我們接下來時間有限但是我們就一起努力好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":10900.029,"end":10926.915,"text":"謝謝剛剛在回答的當中那個薄酒爐他除了教育部那食藥署似乎意見還是都不一樣所以這一點我也請那個部長因為你那個薄酒爐不是只有教育部我們為了事情要達成還有食藥署 衛福部到目前為止他還沒有將你的那個鮮乳"},{"start":10927.475,"end":10927.875,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":10958.435,"end":10969.66,"text":"致謝主席,我請部長還有我們一列署張署長部長跟張署長"},{"start":10984.991,"end":10995.089,"text":"上個月由我們楊瓊英召委我們一起去屏東看那個雞蛋的處理我非常欣賞你"},{"start":10996.851,"end":11014.825,"text":"永遺壬世．而且恭喜在位,我感覺沒有人要開口我聽下去。第二我要把我們的張署長肯定的就是我們這一次那個石斑、龍膽、珍珠斑、我們削到東山崗等等"},{"start":11015.586,"end":11043.641,"text":"我們業署非常的小心也非常的努力也非常的嚴格那現在銷得還蠻順的阿在黃理事長跟我的努力下我們這個龍虎班已經從一台金霸一霸利現在起到兩霸利那裡阿所以如果用公斤算的話那不得了三百多塊阿所以在這感謝我們的部長跟我們的署長再次肯定"},{"start":11044.707,"end":11063.836,"text":"但是我這裡要講一個就是黑衛的事情各位看到我們黑衛以前我們小的時候我年輕的時候我同工人我同工孩子我們家在做文化的我們家親家在理會的我不會去關心"},{"start":11064.864,"end":11064.884,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":11084.819,"end":11109.505,"text":"但是我們今年WCPFC合定我們是1965噸1965噸我們現在差不多多少差不多一千一千一千零五百到一千一左右禮拜天就是26號我小有酒的漁民跟我反映反映說這會繼續還賣價值格怎麼那麼差秀一張"},{"start":11115.953,"end":11124.521,"text":"沒有突然說一公斤一台一公斤公斤公斤是八十塊七十塊一百塊"},{"start":11126.172,"end":11148.742,"text":"因為前幾天上個月在做那個黑尾文化秀的時候一公斤是賣到一萬零三百塊所以讓大家都覺得說 哇 革命情勢一片美好啦 大家可以好 避免人家好到跪在地 結果跪槓一公斤存一千 再跪存九百、八百 滴滴落滴滴落 那到現在還沒學本無歸啊 部長 這問題是處理隊"},{"start":11153.427,"end":11175.602,"text":"我給委員報告,就是鮪魚開始在捕獲的時候的第一尾第二尾通常價格比較高但是相對的它過往的漁獲量,今年的漁獲量短時間的漁獲量那個尾數比較多啦那比較多的時候相對的它的價格會比較往下跑但是以現在我們看到的資料就是"},{"start":11177.063,"end":11204.157,"text":"尾魚可以分為可以是生食的尾魚那生食的尾魚它那個價格還是維持大概300平均大概380幾大概每公斤大概這樣子那媒體所報的那個70塊它是屬於不是生食用的這些魚然後相對的是也是當天的最低價格啦那其實我們最擔心的就是有時候商人看到這樣的新聞他就會把前端的價格壓得更低"},{"start":11204.817,"end":11207.618,"text":"主席 花這麼時間喔 我在這裡講的就是說你黑尾魚一年再怎麼抓不到2000噸接下來"},{"start":11233.99,"end":11234.712,"text":"黃起維7萬幾檔捏 還有來 還有"},{"start":11241.294,"end":11248.98,"text":"還有其他的魚種大多數還有整條島,整條島也有活動,你如果這樣產銷這麼脆弱,你是要怎麼補呢?大家也拖拖拖,漁民也貪不吃,他們的魚族那些大款式都不出,魚肥不一樣,市場也變壞,所以那天署長我有跟你們兩個聯絡,署長說要加強冷鏈,你們以前衝了很多冷鏈給這些魚,到底署長現在到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":11270.902,"end":11285.123,"text":"因為在當天的保溫,因為我們冷店正在蓋啦,大概明年或後年的部分或陸續的完工,齁這個冷店的部分阿你蓋到這個冷店給這個企業,這個企業是有善盡管理之責,阿是我們辦法給他派,阿現在出問題阿"},{"start":11286.024,"end":11287.606,"text":"我們的黑鮪魚只有幾個港口可以拍拍,因為要管制,當港、新港還要去哪裡?"},{"start":11311.448,"end":11318.319,"text":"所以有關節,你現在補助他這麼多做冷凍庫,到底是怎樣的,我聽到說什麼會壞掉,那聽不下去,有什麼事?"},{"start":11326.964,"end":11352.661,"text":"對,兩樣會應該是沒什麼問題啊1900幾噸,大型的冰凍庫一斤兩斤就吃了了、吞了了這不是說它的溫度要0下-50度啦不是說一般的0下-37度所以這個部分我們有特別去找到了一公斤一萬塊,這誤導第二個,你的冷鏈要做好第三個要促銷嘛促銷你有什麼要保守嗎你要給我們的漁民"},{"start":11354.313,"end":11382.88,"text":"有給我們的市民有真的有收益嘛這是我比較在意的對阿就每天來給我認證我就是他給我認證我說你怎麼不去找冠軍你怎麼不去找市委他就是就是沒什麼反應他不來找我我第一時間我就同時補充跟署長阿對啦阿我真感謝你們的順利反應阿對阿你們處理的很積極但是你們要落實或追蹤下去會好不好因為你們這些錢可以撥走這些福音我覺得你們要隨時"},{"start":11384.06,"end":11387.342,"text":"謝謝也請部長將剛剛委員所提的怎麼樣促銷的方案跟委員來說明清楚謝謝我們現在休息3分鐘"},{"start":11424.548,"end":11445.145,"text":"議員會議員議員會議"},{"start":11479.192,"end":11482.253,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11495.454,"end":11505.822,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11529.032,"end":11529.212,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11619.07,"end":11621.072,"text":"謝謝,我們繼續開會我們接下來邀請黃國昌委員請做詢答謝謝主席,有請部長來,我們再請陳部長"},{"start":11650.333,"end":11673.464,"text":"其實這件事情我們在上一次質詢的時候已經交換過意見了因為我一直在跟農業部要我們2022年跟日本進口雞蛋的資料專要去廠會那是在農業部所管轄的機關我從2月一直要要到上一次的時候"},{"start":11674.588,"end":11701.757,"text":"你們到4月說合約有保密義務沒有辦法提供但我們進一步深入去看發現有保密義務是乙方而不是中央續產會所以所謂在合約附保密義務的這件事情的這個說法當我們把合約調出來看了以後發現根本是胡說八道附保密義務的是廠商"},{"start":11702.932,"end":11729.064,"text":"而不是我們的中央續產會上一次詢答的時候你們的同仁說依照政府資訊公開法這個合約需要廠商的同意才能夠公開我上次已經跟部長表達過對這種法規的解釋我是感覺到匪夷所思啦我為什麼感覺到匪夷所思政府資訊公開法是這樣解釋的嗎"},{"start":11730.424,"end":11747.957,"text":"那如果政府資訊公開法是按照農業部這樣解釋的話那問題大條我為什麼說問題大條交通部、文化部、經濟部我只要去調合約通通都要交出來為什麼要交出來事情很簡單啊這是我們納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":11751.836,"end":11774.166,"text":"去採購的事項然後合約行政部門可以用廠商不答應拒絕提供然後依據是政府資訊公開法這樣的法規解釋上次部長回去有沒有再重新思考是所有的行政單位都這樣解釋因此提供給我這些合約的部會通通都違法"},{"start":11775.394,"end":11794.857,"text":"還是只有農業部做這樣的解釋?請部長我想跟委員先說明一下就是當時我所得到的一個訊息就是說我們政府單位的資料的提供與否可能有幾個要件包括您剛才講的政府資訊公開法那當初我們的認定是也需要兩照雙方也不是農業部訂的"},{"start":11796.158,"end":11810.138,"text":"後來我也真正的開了專案會議去檢討這樣的一個規定那我覺得就是說當它屬於公益的時候你什麼時候開專案會議我應該是在委員委員那時候質詢的時候那個專案會議的會議記錄可不可以廢後給我們"},{"start":11813.141,"end":11835.167,"text":"我們在討論的時候並不是一個非常正式的一個會議就是我找了相關的單位來看案件不行啊你決定這麼重大的事項誰表達了這樣的法律見解誰要負責任啊因為關係重大欸如果你們農業部上次的法律見解是正確的那我就跟部長報告啊事情大條啦交通部、文化部、經濟部全部都違法"},{"start":11836.047,"end":11856.937,"text":"因為農業部是唯一一個部會用政府資訊公開法當作理由拒絕提供合約的知識體大農業部到底哪一位官員做這樣的法律主張這個有政治責任的問題嗎?不過我想在法條的這樣的解釋基本上很多"},{"start":11858.178,"end":11862.06,"text":"所以現在我們的政府是各個部會一人一把號各吹各的調同一部法律不同的部會有不同的解釋情況是這樣嗎"},{"start":11879.907,"end":11900.417,"text":"我想應該不會是這樣子但是...那如果不是這樣的話是怎麼樣?是你們解釋錯還是他們違法?我想以農業部來講我最後的決定就是他有他的但書但書如果是屬於公益的時候可以把它公開所以我就用了這個公益的方式可以把它公開所以結果是公開的那合約什麼時候要交出來?"},{"start":11901.437,"end":11909.987,"text":"我們已經合約已經那時候好像張旗愷委員有要求的時候我們已經給了所以合約的部分問的人是我啊你給張旗愷委員那我呢"},{"start":11912.711,"end":11939.972,"text":"我很抱歉 我不是本委的 我跟你一樣你不給我我非常抱歉 這件事情我想我們會員委我會立即提供因為好我們繼續往下看就不要拖時間了啦我為什麼要吹這件事2023年當時超市這家公司被社會大眾質疑50萬的資本額的公司設在一個民宅結果接到7億元超級的大單"},{"start":11941.34,"end":11966.126,"text":"社會嘩然阿哇超市是什麼樣的公司阿非常神秘阿設在一個民宅內2022年9月設立2023年就接到了這麼大的單子那個時候農業部信誓旦旦的說齁超市不是因為要開始專案進口才成立他2022年9月就成立了前面還有時機阿"},{"start":11967.748,"end":11987.866,"text":"我從去年就開始一路追查他有的時機是什麼我為什麼會開始追2022年從日本專案進口因為我從去年就開始懷疑2022年從日本進口雞蛋的就是超市超市就是為了日本進口雞蛋才成立的但我手上沒有拿到證據以前我不會隨便亂說話結果來吧2022年9月成立2022年11月"},{"start":11995.751,"end":12017.485,"text":"曾經從日本進口雞蛋到台灣這個是你們農業部去年公開的資訊在左手邊嘛但左手邊沒有告訴他們2022年11月進口雞蛋是哪裡的單你們上面文過是非寫說曾經幫日本的大企業在處理雞蛋的事情我們再往下追結果後來發現2022年中央續產會進口了3000萬顆雞蛋"},{"start":12024.029,"end":12051.03,"text":"裡面有2500萬顆是交給誰做的?這是交給超市做的啊!超市不就是為了接你們農業部中央續產會的大單而成立的嗎?我有沒有說錯?請教部長我跟委員說齁一家公司的資本額跟他有沒有能力買單我想這是兩件事情的第一點對!但我現在質疑的是什麼?農業部去年怎麼告訴台灣社會大眾的?我們再來看一下"},{"start":12052.389,"end":12054.27,"text":"我講我們並沒有欺騙大眾齁所以只是沒有告訴大家"},{"start":12082.861,"end":12091.935,"text":"他不是為了巴西進口啊事實上在去年的時候為了中央續產會從日本進口的大單3000萬顆、2500萬顆是給超市做的"},{"start":12095.987,"end":12122,"text":"我有說錯嗎?委員我可不可以回答?請請請我想超私我想雞蛋本身他不是一個現貨市場他必須要熟悉整個雞蛋的產業那超私如果說你去問臺灣的所有的蛋農沒有一個人不認識他所以表示說他過往其實在雞蛋本身的這個進口是有他的一個能力負責人秦雨喬女士在2022年9月接你們"},{"start":12122.84,"end":12136.712,"text":"接你們中央續產會的大單以前上一次在處理雞蛋買賣的事宜是什麼時候我所瞭解在你現在的說法是他很有名關係很好可以弄得到蛋嘛"},{"start":12137.714,"end":12156.239,"text":"現在這個是農業部的說法那我請教的是在2022年9月他成立了超市公司接中央續產會的單以前他前一次在處理雞蛋是什麼時候的事情我們不夠不了解因為最主要就是欸那就很奇怪囉你們如果不了解的話"},{"start":12157.159,"end":12173.393,"text":"你們怎麼會掌握說這家公司很有辦法有辦法幫中央續產會去處理2500萬顆日本雞蛋進口不會有問題?廠商是怎麼選擇?我可不可以回答?可以這樣子齁就是112年那是專案進口所以農業部有直接的參與112年是2023年嗎?對"},{"start":12175.635,"end":12177.277,"text":"是公社財團法人還是私的財團法人?他是"},{"start":12199.893,"end":12201.255,"text":"公設的財團法人跟主管機關彼此之間的關係?"},{"start":12218.533,"end":12242.784,"text":"我想我了解但是我們不會去至少對我來講還有對我們的畜牧師來講不會去了解他每一筆的細節我這樣說好了啦中央續產會是你們現在是用自由資金在幫他解釋嘛但你回去看中央續產會從開始到現在從開始到現在他的錢不是納稅人支持的嗎要不然為什麼是公社財團法人"},{"start":12243.985,"end":12262.037,"text":"你們用一個公社財團法人當擺手套就可以迴避監督迴避所有的規管嗎這是我的問題那他一開始成立是由幾個單位去合資成立的但是他每一年他還是有自己的收入時間的問題啦我只問一個最關鍵的問題是不是可以麻煩部長請問中央續產會2022年的時候是廠商他們是怎麼挑選的這是第一個問題嘛是"},{"start":12274.325,"end":12278.269,"text":"這第一個問題第二個問題把合約交出來有沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝謝謝很謝謝部長部長你剛才回答說花園所提問的資料已經給章吉凱委員因為章吉凱委員要的資料不是這個所以你要去把他理清楚謝謝"},{"start":12298.662,"end":12306.826,"text":"來接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員請徐富奎委員請做發言謝謝謝謝主席我們有請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":12323.18,"end":12339.769,"text":"委員好部長早安我想去年底的時候我有跟我們那時候還是在代理部長的時候我們一起去恆春看了我們洋蔥一個種苗的一個災情那當時我印象中我們用很快的速度就核定了這個災損然後給予"},{"start":12342.45,"end":12368.943,"text":"我們農民一個救助這一點非常的感謝但是本席發現今年2月份我們今年在屏東看了荔枝跟芒果的一個農業災損但是一直得不到我們農業部的一個災損的一個核定那到底問題出在哪裡我想跟委員講就是農民跟荔枝開的花他本身當時遇到"},{"start":12370.123,"end":12395.971,"text":"低於20度C的溫度不夠所以它的開的花不時那麼的完整但是荔枝的花絮不是每一個花絮都會結果時所以那時候才說還要持續的一個觀察所以也因為持續的觀察它是不是真正的這個花絮的花的數量不夠而導致後面的結果變少所以這個因果關係我們花了大概將近一個月的時間在做確認"},{"start":12397.766,"end":12408.596,"text":"部長我想就是去年的時候我記得我們有透過一個媒體的報導有看到說我們農業部一直在強調要用科學看災取代人工看災"},{"start":12409.426,"end":12429.738,"text":"中央公告、中央審核要縮短這個勘災的時程,那我印象中我們最常講的一句話我們都希望從寬從速從簡來辦理但是我們面對這個極端的氣候卻發現我們農業部沒有跟上這個腳步我相信這個很多農民都很高興每次遇到天然災害的時候,他們都高興說我們在這個"},{"start":12432.039,"end":12432.519,"text":"我們大概1萬多人吧"},{"start":12459.773,"end":12459.793,"text":"保錦組"},{"start":12480.799,"end":12494.166,"text":"您在政客當時這樣宣傳的都要求我們的農民要使用APP後來那政客都是一群老人家,孩子沒有在家他們怎麼會要用APP啦你們的所謂的整個宣傳的一個管道根本不足"},{"start":12495.166,"end":12510.708,"text":"然後加上我們現在農改廠加上農糧署還有又透過我們的縣市政府透過公署這個管道的保温根本農民不曉得這個整個SOP要怎麼去處理這個後續的保温農民底下欲哭無淚啊我們未來要怎麼去改善這個狀況"},{"start":12512.51,"end":12531.954,"text":"現在目前的一個關鍵的點就是公所的勘栽的速度因為如果同時開很多品項的時候公所的人力不足所以他勘栽的速度會變慢所以我們現在有兩個做法一個做法就是用參數型的指數不是要逐筆去勘這樣的話才能夠節省時間所以我們會去開發那種參數型的這些天氣風險舉個例子像虱目魚9度C以下48小時"},{"start":12539.196,"end":12551.577,"text":"那我們確定說它一定會超過20%我們就免勘猜所以透過這樣子一個這種數據型的天氣參數可以加快它的一個速度那第二個部分就是我們希望推動這種"},{"start":12552.952,"end":12570.901,"text":"那個現刊的這個APP然後這個APP要公所能夠採認那現在遇到一個問題就是因為公所本身的現刊是由他們決定的所以他們有的人會認這個APP的照片有些公所的承辦人員不認識所以這個部分我們會積極的去做一個宣導"},{"start":12572.66,"end":12596.802,"text":"部長我想如果責任全部都要讓農民去承擔、讓公署去承擔都不經...對,我們是我們的責任對啦,我希望就是因為我們有地方有農改廠、有農聯署我們整個預警系統對於這個極端性氣候的掌握,我們應該不要要主動來出擊啦因為農民沒有通報,因為公署沒有看齋,所以農民很倒霉"},{"start":12598.683,"end":12626.494,"text":"我可不可以跟委員說明一下現在的很多天然災害的一個第一時間的探災第一時間的探災都是我們農改廠跟我們的農糧署去探災然後去邀請縣政府的所以相對的我們不會說等著縣政府提報室要上來以我的態度我想我們會更積極的去處理這樣的一個作為好 謝謝另外主席不好意思跟我講整遍"},{"start":12627.094,"end":12645.376,"text":"真的剛剛我想我們也來自屏東,我們是屏東的立委,我們也關心黑鮪魚整個一個產銷一個制度那當然我們都希望我們的漁民這麼辛苦的魚可以買到一個好的介紹但是不能把所謂的生死等級跟刺激一個這個不是生死等級的"},{"start":12646.096,"end":12668.821,"text":"我們希望大家抓到是品質好的魚,讓我們消費者可以享用很美味的一個黑鮪魚,然後透過一個整個產銷的一個系統,那最重要就是未來我們希望我們要加快我們的冷鏈系統的建制。請教一下蘇定,我們有沒有針對冷鏈系統的部分,現在補助的進度到哪裡?"},{"start":12669.401,"end":12695.39,"text":"我想目前現在在東港屏東地區大概有兩個區域農業務務長在處理但是大概會明年甚至到後年才會完工那這段空裝期的話我們已經有協調了一些私人的冷凍庫場去當作備存萬一如果像這一次短時間之內比較多的這個黑鮪魚進港量多造成一些價格的問題的話我們會把這些次級品先拉去做凍存"},{"start":12696.742,"end":12715.323,"text":"部長我還是要再提醒這個問題不會是只有今年明年後年我們除了辦理縣政府除了辦理黑尾魚觀光機來行銷出銷之外我們漁業署跟農業部也要應該提出一個相對應的一個產銷一個政策來輔導大家輔導業者怎麼樣去做一個這個整個一個行銷的一個平台"},{"start":12716.944,"end":12726.391,"text":"最後麻煩我們水保署長這邊把我們屏東縣這兩年我們水保的補助案件的明細表給本席的辦公室接下來我們請高金素妹委員請做詢談"},{"start":12739.343,"end":12746.493,"text":"謝謝主席。讓部長休息一下。可以嗎?好,有請部長。好,我們再請部長。"},{"start":12749.909,"end":12773.094,"text":"部長辛苦了本期在這個位置上我曾經執行過農委會我提到臺灣的農業行政體系其實有非常多培養數十年的農業專才像您一樣你們精通臺灣農業的問題你們也改良了世界一流的農業技術可惜當時領導你們的政務官他只是一個只有理論沒有實踐的虛謎學者"},{"start":12775.612,"end":12793.947,"text":"把台灣的農業耽誤了好長一段時間今天我非常樂見來自農事所的您能夠擔任部長這個職位繼續能夠跟台灣的農民來一起打拼上週我看到了您接受媒體訪問的時候您提到您說農業是一門專業的產業"},{"start":12795.708,"end":12796.148,"text":"我們以前曾經從原鄉基礎資料的盤點"},{"start":12822.709,"end":12849.056,"text":"數據的分析：部落農業的實踐方案：落實原鄉的食農教育：還有學校的營養午餐：可以使用部落的食材這些問題今天我們還是先從基礎資料的回顧來講我也期盼這個部長和所有的農業部的同仁未來在原鄉的農業尤其是農村部落的議題上我們一起從制度"},{"start":12854.02,"end":12872.474,"text":"臺灣目前我們要看一些數據可供農糧食生產的土地面積大概是53萬公頃這您比我清楚其中有12.8萬公頃是位於山坡地的範圍而位於山坡地範圍的合法農地原住民的保留地就佔了7.5萬公頃"},{"start":12874.696,"end":12900.151,"text":"更簡單地講作為農糧生產的原住民保留地占全台灣14%也占山坡地59%而我們看到這些數據它顯示什麼顯示原鄉農業的重要特別是每年的4月到10月民眾非常熟悉也是需求量最大的高利財幾乎都是從高海拔的部落下來的"},{"start":12901.212,"end":12925.963,"text":"可是呢我們占比那麼高的部落的農地過去一直沒有被政府重視我們來看一下7.5萬公頃的元寶地過去全數是位於農田水利會的灌區外這導致什麼呢導致原住民的農民他需要自己往更深山的地方去拉水管然後自己拉水管形成了什麼你看一下這些圖片"},{"start":12927.213,"end":12941.3,"text":"我相信部長很清楚在場的農業的這個專家們你們也清楚7.5萬公頃的元寶地全數位於山坡地但是呢農業部你們的補助項目卻是用平地農業"},{"start":12942.881,"end":12964.115,"text":"為制定標準這導致部落我們種的果樹其實是需要牙管來支撐可是我們的農糧組只能補助水泥柱給農民支撐果樹這是不符合現實的狀況然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地全數也不屬於平地農路所以呢我們是位於蟲化區外"},{"start":12965.376,"end":12975.083,"text":"所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的農路可以改善他的經費我們只能靠什麼水保署每4年一起"},{"start":12976.491,"end":13003.487,"text":"辛苦地向行政院爭取來的所謂的重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫我們來修補部落的農路我們過去有很多的農業政策的補助根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值今天呢我用很短的時間來提出一個案例跟部長你來交流我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉他是全台灣最重要的高利貸的產區我們如果以這個"},{"start":13004.788,"end":13022.259,"text":"蔬菜專區為例一公里的農路他預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田而每公頃的高麗菜他的年產值我們如果以150萬元做計算的話所以每座一公里的農路可能是需要500萬的經費這500萬的經費他可以使用多久20年啊"},{"start":13027.222,"end":13045.348,"text":"在20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少20年然後1500萬我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億更簡單的來講就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好他可以維持部落20年總產值是3億的農業生產"},{"start":13047.449,"end":13067.761,"text":"所以今天我提了這幾個案例因為時間非常的短那麼過去我也跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題我期待在部長的帶領之下我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策可以嗎?部長你有沒有什麼話要說?"},{"start":13069.382,"end":13096.556,"text":"我想謝謝委員的這些提問那以我的態度來講我在處理原鄉的原民部落的這些農業其實要去考慮到除了農業問題以外我更要去重視就是說其實原民部落的這些原民本身他守護的這些山林的一個貢獻度我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值所以我所有的這些政策的誘因的設計"},{"start":13097.697,"end":13121.774,"text":"他絕對不能說只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落所以你包括你剛才講的因為在山坡地在坡地在比較高山的地區的農牧用地的部分他的這些包括他的灌溉系統他的水路系統他都應該被特別的去重視特別說雖然說您剛才講的7.5萬公頃我的資料"},{"start":13124.256,"end":13141.826,"text":"還有波地的部分大概有16萬公頃所以它也是一個重要的農業生產區所以後續我想我會針對原民部落的政策會有個特殊的特殊的一個一個輔導措施去達到一些包括您所期待還有包括所有原住民所期待的包括它的灌溉系統"},{"start":13142.446,"end":13159.591,"text":"他是關區外的灌溉系統,他的農路的部分他的設施的補助的項目跟樣態我想這個部分我們都會來來處理而是用原民部落對於農就是森林地區的守護的貢獻度從這個角度去出發去設計不一樣的"},{"start":13161.038,"end":13175.664,"text":"非常好我想我們原住民的族人終於期待等到了一位好的部長接地氣的部長所以呢這個部分我會持續的來追蹤部長也希望你在公務房忙的時候也記得原住民的這一塊農業部分好吧好謝謝您謝謝"},{"start":13182.171,"end":13203.671,"text":"因為我們台中也有我們和平區部長剛才講到這個是我們很關心的因為以前我記得為什麼我們直轄市的區長原住民鄉長還是用選的因為他們講了一句話當時我當書記長他講了一句話他說我要的你不要給我你要的我又不要"},{"start":13204.412,"end":13204.872,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13224.887,"end":13225.027,"text":"接下來我們請參議員"},{"start":13258.581,"end":13261.025,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是邀請我們部長陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":13270.727,"end":13288.004,"text":"部長,我們現在針對了這個這個探會我們自然探會的一個法學的一個審核那我們大概有目前有6個方式消化、森林、竹林"},{"start":13289.285,"end":13308.606,"text":"改進農業的一個土地管理或者生物碳在土壤的應用紅樹林的植林跟海草的一個護域那這樣6個減量的方法那我想請教農業部那你們要把它落實在我們的農業中那你們有怎樣具體的方式嗎"},{"start":13309.728,"end":13324.839,"text":"第一個就是我們的方法學大概經過我們內部很多的努力現在已經提到環境部去了那環境部公告以後就可以當作一個政治的一個自願減量的一個方法但是在執行面來講這是一個非常重要的關鍵就是"},{"start":13325.72,"end":13354.821,"text":"因為臺灣都是個體物小農為主小農要去處理這個相關的這個減碳的作為幾乎不可能因為它後面的一些成本會比較高一點所以我們現在就是用集團栽培的方式就是我會配套我們的很多產業的調整用集團栽培用氣作栽培的方式讓它變成一個規模比較大的方式那規模比較大的時候你在處理這個所有的這個作為的時候可以有一致性那一致性的過程裡面"},{"start":13355.521,"end":13373.102,"text":"那有兩個後面的策略就是一的可以我們可以由農業部做協助但是探全歸農業部然後農業部再進到交易平台去處理然後處理完的這些金額再回饋給農民那另外一個方式就是由這些這些大的這些極端產區的"},{"start":13373.963,"end":13376.386,"text":"如果是集團栽培的話可以想像會不會變成後來是要有導入企業"},{"start":13394.125,"end":13401.676,"text":"由企業來為了企業本身的EPS對那就是企業應該是一個經營主體然後他去主體他去跟農民變成一個一個契約關係然後讓農民來做實作者"},{"start":13409.847,"end":13422.544,"text":"讓企業取得了這樣的一個看會的價值但是有一個很重要的就是當我導入企業的時候我不希望它是一個對價關係我希望它是一個分論的關係因為它是一個經營主體"},{"start":13424.426,"end":13449.768,"text":"他不能用純粹的這種器做對價的關係去處理,這樣的話會把我們的探權就是變成被企業拿走了,農民沒有什麼收益所以我們未來在跟企業合作回饋,對,回饋,所以分論的部分對,分論嘛,但是企業之所以會想要投入也一定是會對他的,除了企業形象之外可能他取得了這個探權,他對他的外銷"},{"start":13450.589,"end":13451.75,"text":"以後由誰來負責攀爭土地?"},{"start":13478.948,"end":13479.748,"text":"現在聯合國的這個清潔發展機制CDM"},{"start":13505.18,"end":13526.432,"text":"他們目前承認的這個碳匯他們要認為可以產生這個碳匯的部分他們只承認是在新栽植的林地新栽植的林那如果我們目前台灣很多是既有的那你既有的要怎麼把它轉成說它是一個未來是有碳匯價值的一個的林地呢"},{"start":13527.328,"end":13553.762,"text":"我想這個分為兩個部分就是針對現在的CDM的部分他真的是只承認新殖林的部分但是後續的這些這些方法出來以後我們會經過相關的跟國際的規範做一個有效的一個接軌因為有些國家他不一定是在處理這個區塊的他們還是以新殖林為主但是相對的林業的部分的撫育其實他也是一個非常重要的探"},{"start":13554.562,"end":13571.389,"text":"然後身體的經營那另外一個更重要的就是部長我舉一個比較極端的例子因為我們現在有很多平地照領會不會有人為了要有看會會不會然後他就把平地照領的先做把這個平地照領的行動撤掉"},{"start":13572.934,"end":13587.001,"text":"先撤掉阿貴兩天後再重新來照領我們的攤會要看那個基線阿現在有的都沒剩阿啦然後平地照領本身他如果新子的平地照領沒問題"},{"start":13589.284,"end":13608.675,"text":"如果我是改,我本來照指的是他可能做浮浴可能本來的二氧化碳的一個固碳的效果比較差我把它改成竹林竹林的固碳效果好那這樣升級嘛他會重新計算他的一個碳會的數量"},{"start":13610.789,"end":13629.832,"text":"對,所以就有可能會發生原來的樹種被砍掉,然後把它換成新的樹種嘛那另外,等於說重新另外一個cycle重新計算對,就另外計算嘛好,那我再請教一下,那比方說像我們嘉義啦,我們嘉義鹽田地最多了,我們這裡都海靠,我們這裡都鹽田地"},{"start":13631.313,"end":13657.23,"text":"如果有這麼多的一個鹽田地的話那未來有沒有可能變成一個這個海藻啊或者是紅樹林的一個富裕的一個基地這個部分有一部分紅樹林是可以去處理的一些生態的棲地的部分那海草床的部分可能要看區位因為海藻床的他不是說你就在海邊種這個海藻就結束了他可能"},{"start":13658.01,"end":13658.79,"text":"海藻事實上是一個很"},{"start":13686.155,"end":13686.436,"text":"拜訪人員"},{"start":13704.559,"end":13730.456,"text":"所以有這樣的一個物種存在我們要去做可以固碳的海藻船的難度就是很高對那我們有可能在技術上去做排除然後把它轉換成可以固碳的海藻我想這個部分我會請我們的水事組這邊更積極的去處理你如果說一個樹地它相對單純那你如果說原來有一些這些相關的這些海草的時候它的進合作用"},{"start":13730.976,"end":13751.428,"text":"那怎麼樣去移除他可能有要有些技術上的一個問題克服所以部長我覺得臺灣你要找樹地都很難啊因為他都有既有的生態啊所以你在這個有既有生態的地方你要找到大片然後又符合一定會有要排除掉一些一些其他因素的存在嘛對那我現在列舉的就是說你看從呃嘉義甚至到了臺南就是所謂當這個部隊"},{"start":13758.172,"end":13784.364,"text":"阿嘎鹹水、蔥菌那些都是鹽田地這些鹽田地就是早期我們的祖先在這裡培養的地方阿如果我們又可以用這個海藻的富裕創造價值然後又可以讓貴族鹽工阿現在有這一些去做固碳的然後他們可以跟剛剛媒合的企業來做這一塊然後讓他們又有一個工作我覺得這個讓整個鹽田地的價值是是可以整個提升起來的"},{"start":13784.744,"end":13813.753,"text":"我想我會開一個專案計劃就是由水事所跟相關的這些學界共同去去評估一下有沒有辦法把這個我知道這可能有難度啦因為我之前我有跟人研究說我們這裡已經有一些不利於海藻生長的因素戰怎麼樣去改善它的環境有沒有辦法改善嘛對 這個要去做一個專案的一個評估我相信現在的科學技術一定是有辦法突破可是它也需要花一些預算那我們導入企業嘛然後把這一些事情"},{"start":13814.173,"end":13815.475,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請伍利華委員請做詢談"},{"start":13846.896,"end":13848.477,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長我們再請部長部長好 辛苦了去年的5月初我有來質詢農委會"},{"start":13865.081,"end":13886.914,"text":"為什麼呢?因為當時我們有族人因為使用一些傳統食材被檢舉因此機具食安法就被食藥署開發在這個部分其實很為難的地方是如果依照國家的規定它有一個很複雜的調查過程而且動輒百萬的安全性測試費用"},{"start":13892.737,"end":13907.478,"text":"所以很辛苦的 我不認為這個是個人能做到的 這個應該是屬於那些企業、公司或政府來做的那當時呢副主委他是說會由廠事所主動收集資料給食藥署"},{"start":13910.269,"end":13924.498,"text":"另外我也提到說我是希望農委會要主動會同原民會盤整原住民的灌輸植物這些常用的食材原料清單由你們來協調食藥署依據這個規定項目由你們檢附資料送審當時也回應說可以可是後來去年的年底又爆發是老葉"},{"start":13938.207,"end":13939.968,"text":"農業部主動與原民會盤整原住民常用的傳統灌輸食材"},{"start":13960.02,"end":13975.05,"text":"會診後由農業部協調衛福部食藥署競速納入傳統性食品原料避免許多的人因為行政部門作業來不及然後無辜受罰我要說的是其實那半年訴求結論是一模一樣的我是看到說你們果然是在昨天有召開了這個相關的會議"},{"start":13988.311,"end":13993.734,"text":"農業部提出了137項 原民會提出了14項 客委會這邊是還沒有加進來 這個地方我們也看到說目前好像我們講的這些也還沒有納入 最主要是說它的實用紀錄不可考較少實用、無實用、無法確認長期且廣泛 本來就是啊"},{"start":14013.746,"end":14040.995,"text":"做這個調查多難我就已經使用了幾千年你突然一定要我去找文獻或者做調查您將心比心部長您應該也覺得很困難很為難人對不對所以在這個地方也很謝謝你們有提到說那就讓他允許到非傳統性的食品原料這邊就是去做90天的胃食毒性測驗基因毒性試驗致肌試驗"},{"start":14043.476,"end":14045.379,"text":"哇 我是想要問說第一個要誰來做啊這個經費哪裡來請教一下部長"},{"start":14051.887,"end":14080.334,"text":"我想第一個部分就是其實我們農業部當初也承諾了委員的一個提醒我們有一個專案計畫叫做找回原地就是原住民部落的這些傳統食材所以我們也收集了也不是昨天才提出給他們的昨天是他們開會其實我們很早就提供給食藥署了但是基本上從食安的角度我們也必須尊重食藥署的一個判斷那現在一個困難就是傳統食材的部分我們是爭取說"},{"start":14081.374,"end":14111.374,"text":"﹗"},{"start":14112.214,"end":14137.504,"text":"簽署毒性測試那就是說誰來做?農業部可以幫忙嗎?這個部分我們如果要做的時候我們會請我們的農藥所來做因為農藥所本身有這個能力去做這個那我們就請農藥所來做那經費這個部分當然就由你們來處理嘛因為這絕對不是受罰的個人可以做的 對吧但是這個不能一百三十幾項全部進去啦我們會有一些優先次序"},{"start":14138.906,"end":14142.051,"text":"然後選擇優先的我們請農藥所我們經費提供來做這個如果說有130幾種本身的排序出來對那"},{"start":14150.39,"end":14158.253,"text":"我知道 我現在就是說優先制度出來以後我會跟食藥署 食藥署所長應該也在這裡我們會用經費來支持他做好 那主席我問一個一分鐘小問題那第二個就是很簡單的現在來講就是我們原住民其實最需要的您也知道就是農水署的業務、水保署的業務、農糧署的業務那我簡單說第一個部分"},{"start":14176.041,"end":14200.794,"text":"就是水保署或農糧署這邊都有針對原住民地區這些補助項目會增加個10%就是符合的話一定增加10%這是基於原鄉的成本很高那這個很好可是現在遇到兩個問題因為農水署剛改制成立啦所以他好像還沒有這一項所以麻煩部長農水署這個部分一樣來做好不好"},{"start":14204.136,"end":14207.524,"text":"我跟委員早前說明一下齁這個提高補助其實"},{"start":14209.246,"end":14238.309,"text":"以我的概念來講因為我一直認為原鄉地區原民部落他對這邊土地的守護的貢獻度因為他的貢獻度我願意把一些原民部落的一些補助經費有一次性的去做一個適當的處理好 謝謝那另外第二個碰到的問題就是說其實距離遠近喔我舉個例子齁像這個尖石鄉他光是那個漁老一直到他裡面的這個什麼馬胎齁他相距54公里欸"},{"start":14239.17,"end":14254.388,"text":"那個兩個多小時的車程所以我們是有族人提議說因為他們會叫不到廠商沒有人要來所以是不是這個部分也能夠依據他的距離遠近還是做一些程度的差別補助"},{"start":14255.959,"end":14285.115,"text":"我想謝謝委員這樣的一個提醒就是說因為原民部落很分散有的是很深山所以這個部分可能我們會去研議但是可能沒有辦法用一致性的用一公里多少可能太遠的部分我們可能會用專案的方式或者是用協助的方式去委請一些我們比較了解的廠商去來協助那那個農水路的經費我也之前關心過聽說明年會增加對吧"},{"start":14286.513,"end":14303.761,"text":"我們一年的農水路的經費大概是加起來沒有偷的加起來大概41啦但是因為全國地區很多農水路都要做但是我們會依照它的重要性我們會盡量來支持好我們希望來支持原鄉好謝謝部長謝謝各位署長謝謝主席接下來我們請圖圈局委員謝謝圖圈局委員在那邊等好久了謝謝"},{"start":14320.036,"end":14320.456,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14331.29,"end":14357.596,"text":"陳部長我想請問一下我們那個我們大園內海產業園區在112年3月的時候有召開可行性規劃公聽會在112年7月的時候也有辦環評說明會也在今年3月有召開徵收土地的公益性及必要性的說明會那這一部分目前已經到我們農業部那知道部長知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":14358.939,"end":14364.695,"text":"我現在目前吼那個文還沒到部長室來我是不是可以請農政水保署稍微說明一下好那請署長是來"},{"start":14366.605,"end":14367.665,"text":"那現在在我們農村水保署這邊有問題嗎?"},{"start":14393.407,"end":14396.069,"text":"據我們了解之前針對地主這些問題也都整合完畢價格也都談好那現在如果到我們這邊大概還有多久的時間?"},{"start":14419.429,"end":14442.203,"text":"現在我們把意見送出去到經濟部之後再轉到桃園市政府把這些意見因為這些意見大概都是涉及到目前區域裡面還有一些農民還在耕作所以有關於農民耕作這些權益的部分我們請桃園市政府跟農民這邊再做一個更進一步的協商之後如果沒意見大概很快就通過了"},{"start":14442.363,"end":14465.235,"text":"好,因為這個關於我們大園區這個經濟發展跟就業需求希望這部分我們農業部這邊盡快的幫我們協助處理好,我們會盡快的協助好,那還有我們針對我們農田水利署的部分因為我想請問一下我們在107年修法針對農田水利會修法"},{"start":14465.595,"end":14469.918,"text":"請問一下那目前到現在已經三年多的時間不知道現在覺得成效如何我想"},{"start":14482.83,"end":14508.224,"text":"整個從過往的農田水利署變成現在的農水署我覺得有一個非常重要的成效就是過去每一個農田水利會是獨立在運作的它比較缺乏橫向的一個聯繫那特別是我們在處理的時候農田水利會在處理灌區內的會員制的部分那成立了那個農田水利署的時候其實我們花了非常多的精力是在原本灌區外的這個部分"},{"start":14508.664,"end":14527.312,"text":"那這個灌區外的部分其實我們已經提供了大概5.6萬公頃的這些農田然後甚至於波地的部分以前那個農業水利會是不處理波地的這些灌溉系統那現在農水局有更多的資源去處理這些波地的灌溉系統的處理這是一個非常重要的一個貢獻"},{"start":14528.012,"end":14558.012,"text":"﹚"},{"start":14558.252,"end":14581.817,"text":"公頃到現在只有到36萬公頃少了5000多公頃然後排水設施工程也從之前的20公里到現在都沒有做農水工程改善渠道也都是下降這稅收渠道從109年到去年你看大概也只有到不到一半所以我們看起來這個績效好像是下降所以難怪農民對於我們覺得說"},{"start":14583.177,"end":14608.403,"text":"改為官派之後反而覺得這個效率變差好像所做的東西感覺變更少而且我們看我們他現在他的現金資產也從之前109年的445億我們現在查了以後到現在只剩408億也也花掉了賠掉了37億多那錢也花那麼多然後可是感覺這個績效是下降的"},{"start":14609.27,"end":14634.025,"text":"我跟委員說您所提供的這些數據我們這樣看起來是可能有一些計算上的一個錯誤我想根據您的那個指標我們會重新提供一個數據我在這邊只提供一個就是說原來農田水利會本身它的一個年度的預算其實是大概3至10億左右可是到了112年其實我們每一年提"},{"start":14635.126,"end":14658.211,"text":"投入的經費是到136億幾乎這個經費是投入的3倍那這個3倍不只是做灌區外其實也做灌區內的這些渠道的這些整修的部分那甚至於報休的那個時間點從過去的可能要10天2個禮拜才打電話叫人家來修的時候我們現在可能縮短到4、5天所以整個的這些"},{"start":14659.171,"end":14686.918,"text":"這些渠道的這些維修的效率是提高的所以我覺得後面本身的這些資訊我想會後我們會提供一個我們實際統計的資訊給委員做參考我這邊也跟部長報告因為我們地方基層我們常常在跑我們現在得到的聲音說以前他們向灌溉溝渠損壞他跟小組長一通報小組長就來看看完以後可能隔一兩天就來修復他說現在叫也叫不來有時候來了以後"},{"start":14687.338,"end":14713.131,"text":"看了以後又說今年沒錢明年再說他們說整個效率上真的差很多而且感覺好像要做這個也沒錢要做那也沒錢然後以前農民去到是老闆是頭家現在去到好像變成說農民反而好像去到裡面都是大官他們感覺整個感覺真的差非常多所以我覺得部長這部分要真的要請你們好好了解好好檢討一下"},{"start":14714.412,"end":14730.89,"text":"第一個部分就是我們的服務的態度我一定會要求我們的農民改善那第二個部分就是有關於這個就是農民的一個反應我們會正視這個問題到底他的問題的癥結點在哪邊那過往是通過小組長我們現在有個0801的服務專線"},{"start":14732.992,"end":14748.933,"text":"那透過小組長我們的另外一個訊息就是你有關係你就很快你如果沒有關係你就等到一年也等不到但是因為我們農水組在處理的時候我想我們會依據最快的速度我想服務的態度我們一定會改變"},{"start":14749.494,"end":14773.301,"text":"好,還有一點我也再提醒部長一下因為他們現在常常說現在修根的面積都非常大像110年的時候這庭怪的面積是20年最多他們說現在我們的農水署都常把這個水都給製造業生產用水反而不注重他們農田灌溉用水我希望這部分部長也多幫我們注意一下這個是絕對是錯誤的我想以農業部來講我們一定會確保我們的農田的"},{"start":14778.343,"end":14795.632,"text":"關閉的這水源的一個確保那相對的當你水情比較嚴峻的時候水庫沒辦法放水的時候那真的沒水可用我們用什麼用皮糖用很多溝渠本身的一個那個吸水去去加強灌溉所以我們會盡最大的努力去確保農業的水資源"},{"start":14796.973,"end":14807.764,"text":"希望這部長你還是了解一下因為他們都感覺現在都重視這個製造業反而不重視農業我覺得我們適度的說明很重要農業部一定會堅持我們的原則好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝來 經理這個"},{"start":14818.208,"end":14829.175,"text":"部長剛才在回答土委員因為他從早上9點多就等到現在他很慎重那依照我們程序但是部長剛才回答有兩件事情"},{"start":14830.39,"end":14856.35,"text":"主席他一定要提出第一個您說原先的小組長有關係很快沒關係一年都等不到這句話請你收回因為我們的小組長在地方每一個都非常用心假設我們真的有這樣子沒有關係小組長通知一年都還不來的話哇那個事大條啊你們的督導有問題啊絕對沒那回事的"},{"start":14859.873,"end":14879.221,"text":"我自己可以作證所以這一句話可能你愉快你要收回因為這個都有錄音錄音那第二個土委員關心的我想大家都非常關心不分藍綠白就是水權的問題當然在農業部您說全力支持但是坦白講真的"},{"start":14880.161,"end":14903.731,"text":"水位部分還是不夠所以我上個禮拜也才跟他們說你旁邊在綁,你給綁分分啦你水位你就有辦法縮輪,它就不會連起這個是可能農業部你還要再跟經濟部趕快農水署你要趕快再去跟他講上次就被我們抓到說要放4公分,只有放2公分半"},{"start":14904.511,"end":14917.315,"text":"我們帶隊去看他,坦白說他少放了一公分半,欺惡我們農民,不可以如此嗎?好不好?我們都全力為農民嗎?好不好?土偉,謝謝你。好,謝謝。接下來我們請何欣淳委員請做巡檔。謝謝我們主席,楊弘昭委。那我們是不是請部長?我們再請陳部長。"},{"start":14936.301,"end":14941.206,"text":"部長,農業為國之本所以大家都很關心農業不管是產業面或者是農民的權益跟照顧剛剛講到水的問題確實我們需要用水當然農業用水灌溉用水要優先我想這個是一定要的"},{"start":14959.542,"end":14970.171,"text":"那剛剛呢我認為說其實在地方的農民之間啊都會常常是有一些混淆的訊息包括像剛剛水這個問題為什麼會在農民那邊會認為說啊政府都照顧那個山楂啊沒照顧農民所以說連水啊先放給山楂沒放給農民剛剛部長說沒有沒有沒有我們是絕對農民優先我覺得部長這個態度要明確"},{"start":14986.986,"end":15005.763,"text":"理念要堅持說明要完整清楚讓人民知道讓農民知道這個你做得到嗎?我覺得你現在520之後你剛上任你最重大的任務就是這個你爭取之後我覺得最重要就是這個我想農業的水資源我們一定會"},{"start":15007.423,"end":15012.167,"text":"百分之百全力的去做一個確保而且部長不是只有農業的水資源的問題還有我們明年國土計畫法就要上路雖然我知道有委員提案要來修法延長實施的年限那但是呢以目前為止我們不管在這個第一線地方上聽到的或者是在網路上聽到的農民啊"},{"start":15036.507,"end":15041.889,"text":"農田的所有人是人心惶惶都覺得說政府要台灣農民政府這個國土計畫法上路之後農地都沒介紹所以農民現在心驚驚不知道怎麼辦因為得不到政府正確的資訊"},{"start":15054.073,"end":15058.375,"text":"政府要告訴他們說我們的國土計劃法要做的是什麼事即使國土計劃法通過了之後執行了之後我們政府又做了哪些配套來提升農地的一個這個效能然後來增加農民的收入確保農民的生活未來不會有影響不會差不會變壞土地價值不會崩解"},{"start":15083.123,"end":15102.597,"text":"部長,這個氛圍在地方上你走動你都沒有感受到嗎?我想,我謝謝委員的提醒齁那這個部分我想特別是在媒體特別是在我在在產業走的時候很多農民有這樣的一個反應齁那我覺得我們第一個雖然說有比較技術上的執行細節還在跟內政部討論但是整體來講我覺得我們的宣導不夠"},{"start":15106.32,"end":15123.662,"text":"那最重要就是說我們現在的特農一般農以後轉變成農一農二只要你從事農業你所有的權利都不會去變的不用去擔心可是你剛剛講這句話只要你從事的是農業那意思是說非農的所有的"},{"start":15124.463,"end":15126.445,"text":"對,我還沒說完第一個就是你只要你從事農業你所有的權益都會保障"},{"start":15144.904,"end":15164.23,"text":"而且就是未來的農業的資源現在是普遍的只要你從事農業都會處理未來我們會更精準的去做相關的一個產業的協助那第三個部分就是如果說農業你要有時候變更嘛他們很擔心你沒辦法去做變更你的價值就永遠被鎖住但是現在有兩個方法"},{"start":15164.73,"end":15188.808,"text":"一個方法可能比較長就是每5年檢討那個是我覺得是一個目標而已但是你也可以隨時透過鄉村的一個整體規劃去做一個調整所以這個部分我想我們最擔心的就是農業本身的這些原來的地木的使用那相對的經過國土規劃的時候其實某個程度它是更有彈性的"},{"start":15188.988,"end":15216.871,"text":"那部長我請教一下以你所知目前我們地方政府裡面有幾個縣市送上這個所謂國土計劃法裡面所要求要來審議的你可不可以再說以你所知目前有多少個地方政府對於這個國土計劃法的因應因為地方政府要提出計劃來送中央那目前有幾個地方政府提出你知道嗎應該是兩個"},{"start":15219.052,"end":15242.521,"text":"我記得是兩個還一個還兩個而已三個啦三個後來又提了聽說三個啦我的意思是說那全台灣現在目前就只有這兩三個啦其他都還提不出來那你就知道問題似乎不是我們想的那麼簡單他非常的複雜對他有他的複雜度啦他的複雜度所以呢已到今年年底之前"},{"start":15243.701,"end":15268.048,"text":"可預料的可預期的大概也不會多幾個縣市提出來那整個我是建議第一個我們自己農業部本與農地的管理跟農業的這個產業的一個這個我們自己要提出自己的態度自己的想法自己對於國土計劃法裡面我們應該要怎麼負責任的來提建議這第一個第二個在國土計劃法執行之前"},{"start":15268.948,"end":15285.98,"text":"因為有可能會演,因為有其他法案的版本要演嘛,那起碼在國土計畫法執行之前,我們是不是也應該負責任的來做有效的而且是正確的資訊的宣導或者是說明啊?"},{"start":15286.44,"end":15307.304,"text":"因為地方政府雖然有做但是我坦白講做的2266哩哩啷啷而且很多都是形式上的貴罪娘啦很多農民一般農民幾乎都接觸不到聽不到正確的資訊所以網路上我看到好多都是什麼那個仲介不動產公司的經理人不斷的告訴農民說因為國土計畫法要通過了"},{"start":15310.185,"end":15313.147,"text":"你未來的農地價值就會崩了所以你現在趕快趁機要來處理要來怎樣怎樣怎樣我覺得這些都是不應該的都是不對的是不是應該要給予正確的一個資訊"},{"start":15325.896,"end":15350.011,"text":"正確透明的資訊是最重要的而且要用農民聽得懂的話語來告訴他們來跟他們溝通要先溝通啊,要溝通清楚啦好不好謝謝委員我想這是農業部的一個責任那過去這個溝通如果說沒有到位其實我們應該要檢討我們現在就可以跟你講了就是我們要檢討所以我後續會針對國土計畫雖然說國土計畫的"},{"start":15353.453,"end":15370.165,"text":"一些跟農業部的我們應該更主動積極的去召開一些說明會甚至於聽取他們的一些回饋的聲音然後把這些可能似是而非的這些言論也能夠在第一時間的去消除第一時間要說明清楚要消除似是而非的論點"},{"start":15370.845,"end":15389.974,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":15390.034,"end":15409.369,"text":"我們國家政府權力沒有大到要把他們的綁實實的我們還是要尊重農地所有權人農民他們的聲音我覺得這個政策才能夠務實可行啦國土計劃法也才能夠推得動啦不然的話我是很擔憂的好不好部長好以上謝謝好謝謝我們請徐欣怡委員請做訓導"},{"start":15425.247,"end":15428.771,"text":"謝謝主席本席請部長我們再請陳部長委員好"},{"start":15438.222,"end":15459.139,"text":"本席就接著剛剛何委員的在講這個國土計劃法其實您剛剛的答詢大概也表達也知道現在整個落差很大甚至我們地方上都覺得你這國土計劃法的規劃跟實施不要像教改你知道教改是怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":15460.18,"end":15483.952,"text":"理論跟實際的情形沒有契合好那本席在這裡本席是新竹縣第一選區選出來的區域的立委我們地方上非常的憂心第一個就是說我們在國土計畫法你在畫的時候到底有沒有瞭解實際的情況千萬不要天龍國思維不要坐在冷氣房裡"},{"start":15485.012,"end":15508.721,"text":"我們地方就反映特農區特農應該是涼田但是呢特農他卻沒有水可以灌溉或已經有蓋建築物你化為特農區那你接著你畫一個山坡地保育區其實那邊全部是平地你把它列為森林保護區我們地方上這個都這種情形一定要"},{"start":15509.701,"end":15509.901,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":15528.352,"end":15542.26,"text":"實施下來只是徒立財團地方聲音就是這樣一直跟我們反映第4個真正想要務農的農民他的土地不一定被劃為農地所以地方非常憂心"},{"start":15543.22,"end":15561.565,"text":"所以這幾點我們這樣子來反映我們希望部長您能夠積極的來作為然後讓我們地方這些的疑慮還有這些這種不符合你的想法、你的計畫跟現實脫節的你一定要想辦法改進"},{"start":15566.185,"end":15584.82,"text":"我的時間我看你書面回答好了好不好那再來就是本席想要請議就是我們新竹沿海很多的這個養魚嘛就沿海很多養魚結果我們現在新竹沿海變成什麼魚的墳場為什麼變成魚的墳場部長你要不要猜看看"},{"start":15594.89,"end":15607.204,"text":"數長可不可以了解我應該是非常豐沛的這個魚群結果全部變魚的墳場你知道什麼原因嗎可能要請委員說明的更清楚是指哪一個部分"},{"start":15608.105,"end":15633.116,"text":"就我們的漁場啊應該是漁場結果都是魚的墳場因為我們有太多的漁礁把漁網被漁礁卡住然後呢沒有請當然本席知道我們漁業署有經費但是那個叫海保署他們也有那漁業署的部分所以我今天農業部在這我要特別講"},{"start":15634.896,"end":15657.47,"text":"我們地方漁民的反應就是都是清表面的就是做個意思意思表面功夫敷衍多年下來漁網被漁就是漁礁整個困住結果這些漁網呢就把漁全部弄死了所以漁場變漁的墳場這個情況我為新竹縣我們的沿海、新峰"},{"start":15663.894,"end":15679.03,"text":"主委這裡我們來請命是不是請漁業署可以來協助我想整個你剛才講的那個粉廠的部分我現在了解就是說很多漁礁因為其他的這些海洋垃圾包括漁網這個東西你如果沒有順利的清除的時候"},{"start":15680.391,"end":15695.999,"text":"會讓這個漁業的資源越來越少那相對的漁業署他每年都有編一些經費去處理那如果不夠的地方我想我們針對這個部分我想也請漁業署這邊去專案去了解那如果經費不夠的地方我想我們要清楚就應該要盡快對而且"},{"start":15698.18,"end":15724.645,"text":"不要每年做一點做一點等於沒清那那個魚你看這麼多年下來我們豐沛的這個海洋的這個生態整個就被我們人為這樣破壞了對那另外一個重點就是說現在新的這次網的實名制有沒有對對對這個有在實施在做了以後相對的你如果說有實名制的時候很容易抓到對對對減少是一件事情那已經存在的我們會盡努力的去處理好"},{"start":15726.105,"end":15752.376,"text":"主席不好意思我們最後再30秒就是有關我想我們也要肯定我們農業部剛修正了這個農業天然災害救助辦法因為養蜂養蜂的產業我相信我們的農民都是靠天吃飯當然不只養蜂產業但是我今天特別講的就是蜂蜜養蜂的蜂農他們也是因為氣候該冷的時候不冷"},{"start":15754.157,"end":15782.706,"text":"該有雨水的時候沒有雨水所以他們也很辛苦那我們瞭解到這一次好像是一箱是補助他們450元是不是?跟委員說明過去天然災害沒有這一項但是這一次我們把但是那是過去的疏失不是代表沒有就應該所以我們該改進我們就改進了就是說當蜜蜂沒有蜜園的時候它其實就是一種間接性的天然災害所以我們已經納入我們的天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":15783.146,"end":15797.554,"text":"那今天正在開專欄會議 是如果專欄會議通過的話我們就會公告正式公告為受災的一個情況那本席想請命的就是為我們民眾蜂農請命就是你一箱450元他們根本還是"},{"start":15800.336,"end":15802.958,"text":"這個費用的部分其實我們在內部討論其實有邀請的這些蜂農的協會他們大概對這個的一項的這個價格他們覺得是認同的"},{"start":15820.867,"end":15838.561,"text":"因為天然災害救助本身他是救助他的一個成本的20%不是說他的營業損失所以這個價格其實我們有透過這些密封的相關的那個協會他們覺得說這是一個合理的"},{"start":15839.241,"end":15840.042,"text":"我了解我了解"},{"start":15855.6,"end":15855.64,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":15879.403,"end":15897.219,"text":"所以我們這個農業的挑戰很大。誰也沒有想到蜜蜂採不到蜜,因為它沒有辦法開花。所以這連貫樹它可以補助,然後蜜沒辦法。所以這個就要請部長做任性農業全體的一個挑戰。謝謝。"},{"start":15899.02,"end":15900.201,"text":"陳秀寶﹑黃孟楷﹑林德福﹑王美惠﹑林楚瑛﹑羅志強﹑羅明財﹑陳冠廷﹑游浩﹑李博毅﹑"},{"start":15929.52,"end":15951.909,"text":"好,我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘的都已經發言完畢,詢答結束我們有委員林國成委員、劉建國委員、林俊憲委員、陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報那書面質詢及為其答覆的部分請相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":15953.55,"end":15966.527,"text":"本日所列的議程處理完畢我們星期四繼續開會謝謝所有的議事主任員謝謝媒體朋友也謝謝部長以及所有的與會人士大家辛苦了加油謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15958","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373da75a1f35c7302ecd0f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be4a4439dc52e811d505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-29","start_time":"2024-05-29T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:14:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13394,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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在複合式災害下的核電安全另一者是氣候協定之後如何有效降低二氧化碳排放下的能源選擇以國際能源數"},{"start":1922.489,"end":1937.41,"text":"對世界各國使用核電的統計2022年全球平均約9.2%其中由美國、日本、法國等使用能源的國家"},{"start":1938.516,"end":1962.047,"text":"也有德國、意大利、澳洲等未使用核能的國家其他各國都會以自己的需求跟認知來評估使用或不使用核能在最近一兩年國際重要的活動當中我們可以看到對於有關核能的聲明包括COP28"},{"start":1963.763,"end":1991.116,"text":"核能高峰會以及七大工業國部長級會議對於核能在淨零減碳過程中的定位以及核能所具有的風險跟成本都有所著墨但國際之音對於核能是否為綠色能源以及核電廠的安全問題跟核廢料的最終處置仍有不同的聲音"},{"start":1992.264,"end":2013.522,"text":"而決定使用或不使用核能必須在充分對話跟資訊對等的基礎上取得社會共識這些國際上的即時動態跟訊息核安會持續透過駐外人員交流管道掌握並獲取即時的資訊同時透過雙邊協定"},{"start":2017.093,"end":2039.008,"text":"合作研究計畫來拓展我國在核能合作交流的網路以及國際能鑑度接下來對於國內核電廠延役的議題首先核安會為獨立的核能安全管制機關跟國際核能先進國家"},{"start":2041.38,"end":2065.493,"text":"的管制機關例如美國的核管會NRC日本的原子力規制委員會NRA一樣本與依法賦予的職責獨立行使原子能安全管制工作而國內核電廠的研議議題系屬國家能源政策的範疇為國家能源主管機關的權責"},{"start":2069.206,"end":2094.274,"text":"國內核一二廠已進入長達25年的除役過程核安會持續掌握國際管制技術強化安全管制督促台電公司加速乾除設施的興建並推動原子能科技的應用在農、醫、工、環境永續的領域提升民眾的福祉"},{"start":2096.304,"end":2120.66,"text":"對於核電廠延役的法規方面現有的核管法對於販花運轉執照的申請條件時程應該檢附的申請文件都有相關的規定我國核一二廠的運轉執照都已經借期進入除役的階段核三廠的執照也將到期"},{"start":2121.747,"end":2148.934,"text":"所以國內核電廠的申請延役的法定期限都已經超過目前核一二廠用過燃料池已接近滿儲核三儲存空間有限只能夠提供數年而已目前台電核一廠乾除執行水土保持改善工程在取得新北市核發完工證明之後就可以進行熱測試"},{"start":2150.896,"end":2179.238,"text":"核安會將持續督促台電公司加速推動各核電廠的乾除設施就核電廠的研議作業而言經營者必須依照規定提出研議安全性評估的文件向管制機關提出申請而管制機關將嚴格審查電廠所提出的申請文件並且執行安全審查以及現場視察"},{"start":2182.624,"end":2206.226,"text":"確認基礎狀況符合法規跟安全的要求。核安會尊重大院委員對各項研議的修法跟立法本次報告的電廠研議涉及核能安全跟公共利益就核安會的職責首要確保核能安全核廢的處理能夠妥善處理"},{"start":2207.947,"end":2233.186,"text":"第三部分就新型核能作為永續能源的規劃進行概要說明國際論壇所提出的第四代核能技術這項新的技術主要是改善舊有的機型提升核能使用永續性跟可靠性但離實際商業運轉仍有很大的距離"},{"start":2235.106,"end":2260.572,"text":"相較於第三代大型核電廠建造的時間較長國際間將注意力轉移到小型模組化的反應器SMR發展上只是國際上大部分的SMR計畫都在設計跟研發階段美國也曾因為成本因素終止NewScale的公司的SMR計畫"},{"start":2262.093,"end":2291.442,"text":"目前國內正著手進行資料收集熱流分析等以掌握新技術跟培育人才核融合被視為一個竭盡的新能源相較於傳統的核能發電具有安全低放射性污染的特點但是涉及複雜的科學跟工程的問題需要技術突破跟大量的資金挹注"},{"start":2293.015,"end":2316.81,"text":"目前國際間積極發展的核融合技術國研院已和國內大學及法人共同執行磁約束高溫電漿研究的整核型計畫預計在4年內完成國內首套小型球型托卡馬克研究用的實驗裝置"},{"start":2319.997,"end":2347.607,"text":"最後核安會將持續以現有的國際合作跟交流管道掌握全球核能發展的趨勢跟最新的核能技術的研發對於研議的議題仍需由經濟部從能源整體規劃可行性跟效益等審慎評估而前提是核安確保核廢能夠妥善處理以及建立社會共識"},{"start":2349.633,"end":2373.821,"text":"核安會作為獨立的安全管制機關．無論核電廠的除役或運轉．經會本於職責做好核安管制的工作．為民眾安全把關以上報告不禁之處 敬請委員指教謝謝好我們非常謝謝陳主委的口頭報告那我們接下來是不是我們請經濟部的林次長來進行報告時間是3分鐘"},{"start":2381.058,"end":2393.67,"text":"主席、各位委員、經濟部就委員會所指定展望全球核能發電趨勢．我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃的議題進行報告．"},{"start":2396.092,"end":2417.197,"text":"首先就全球核能發電的趨勢來進行說明一據國際能源總署IEA報告2022年全球核能發電占比為9%而在近年排放情境下預估2030與2050年核能發電占比分別為10%與8%二、全球核能居足的運轉現況"},{"start":2418.797,"end":2446.192,"text":"目前有416部核能基礎在全球運轉中依據國際原子能總署 統計資料包括我國核三廠兩部基礎全球目前共有416部核能基礎運轉中其中以美國94部最多法國中國大陸各56部赤芝東亞部分韓國26部日本12部2022年全球核能基礎共提供近25000億度的電力"},{"start":2448.593,"end":2474.466,"text":"二有59部的核能機組目前正在建造中全球目前有15個國家共59部核能機組建造中其中中國大陸25部最多印度7部設置東亞部分韓國有2部在進行建造中三目前有210部的核能機組停役中全球目前已有210部核能機組停止運轉進入除役狀態"},{"start":2475.626,"end":2487.491,"text":"包括美國41部．德國33部．東亞部分．日本有24部．韓國2部．以及我國核一二廠4部機組．正在這個庭議除役中"},{"start":2488.621,"end":2513.39,"text":"三就各國這個核電的選擇一自身國情的環境而有所不同的考量國際上對於核電的使用系尊重各國的選擇不同國家依國情環境而有不同考量部分國家考量核能在發電過程中不排碳在國際減碳淨零趨勢下選擇核電作為減碳的工具之一也有國家為了支持核工業而選擇發展核電"},{"start":2515.071,"end":2528.607,"text":"亦有因考量核能安全及核廢料處理問題而選擇非核各國有不同的特殊環境來作考量國際間將加強先進核能技術的交流與發展依據2024年4月28日"},{"start":2531.26,"end":2548.479,"text":"至30日的七大工業國組織的氣候能源跟環境部長全體會議所發布的聯合聲明對於選擇或支持核能使用的國家將促進其核電技術的研究開發與部署包含小型核反應爐同時促進國際核融合合作"},{"start":2548.939,"end":2561.511,"text":"加速核融合發電廠的開發與示範．成立G7核融合工作小組．加強跨國的研究與開發合作．同時提出適合的監管方式那我國核電廠延役的推動狀況一我國核電的"},{"start":2564.514,"end":2568.655,"text":"展望全球核能發電趨勢及文化委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2588.321,"end":2605.152,"text":"發電重要設備已近10年未維護．核二廠目前因用過燃料池已經放滿用過燃料棒．但該處設施尚未興建．以致現有反應爐內的用過核燃料棒．無法移出更新燃料．要機提選於2021年7月2日停機．二號機僅能運轉．至2023年3月"},{"start":2610.455,"end":2630.183,"text":"運轉執照借起而兩部及時無法持續運轉另一核反應器設施管制法運轉執照借起後已不得運轉三核三廠兩部及運轉執照將分別於今年的7月27日及明年5月27日借起依法已超過延宜的申請期限"},{"start":2632.61,"end":2657.691,"text":"針對核電廠延役的條件來進行說明：延役面臨核子反應器設施管制法等法規的規範至於核安部分．台電公司需進行核電廠安全的總集檢．設備的汰換更新．輔導安全強化及耐震補強的評估這個是最重要的條件第二個很重要的部分就是核廢料的處理核二廠用過燃料池已滿"},{"start":2658.391,"end":2677.43,"text":"需要地方政府支持興建干儲設施才能將反應爐用過燃料移出妥善存放處理那最後來說明結語目前歐美國家雖已有新型核能基礎相關的設計但都尚無建造及運轉時機故設計安全性以及核配料是否能減量"},{"start":2678.431,"end":2690.11,"text":"難有待時機的一個佐證國際間越加強先進核能技術交流發展經濟部將持續密切掌握國際的發展動向以上報告 敬請各位委員來指導謝謝"},{"start":2693.888,"end":2700.49,"text":"好,我們謝謝林次長的口頭報告我們現在要進行詢答每位訴詢委員質詢時間是6分鐘必要時候延長2分鐘列席委員質詢的時間為4分鐘那發言登記截取的時間是上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案的話請於上午10點30分前提出並在本委員會的范雲委員質詢後就立即來進行處理處理提案的時候若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場我們原力不予處理"},{"start":2723.135,"end":2740.996,"text":"那我們首先請發言登記第一位的紅孟楷委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委跟林次長好請主委跟次長謝謝好主委"},{"start":2745.902,"end":2753.716,"text":"所以先跟你請教很多媒體朋友都關注到賴清德總統的就職演說沒有再提起非核家園"},{"start":2754.967,"end":2783.58,"text":"再加上國發會新任的主委也講說對核能的看法都是與核碩董事長同董事長還有我們新任經濟部郭部長都理性的看待這件事情因為產業來說電夠不夠低碳電夠不夠以及淨零是關鍵的因素未來五年內我想台灣不管是半導體的擴廠AI人工智慧跟高階運算都是新興科技發展所以現在"},{"start":2784.66,"end":2801.955,"text":"也需要評估中長期的一個用電成長那如果說真的有可能往產業規劃中長期的電力成長的話是不是代表現在政府重啓核能已經確定一旦重啓核能的話核安會應不應該要提高成績您怎麼看"},{"start":2804.036,"end":2808.479,"text":"我先請教一下如果說現階段來講到今年7月我們核三廠一號機也會"},{"start":2832.062,"end":2832.282,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":2861.609,"end":2870.604,"text":"是的 但我的理解我們會有新的機組上來 這個可能台電公司什麼樣的機組 來 次長馬上主委就推給經濟部了"},{"start":2873.362,"end":2901.547,"text":"我們今年7月就會有新的機組了我想這個您剛剛提到一個用電需求規劃我們每年都在做而且就滾動在修正所以您委員所提到的部分核能三廠的一號機如果在今年的7月27日這個停止運轉我們事實上已經規劃好相關的一個這個相關的電來補進來那這個部分我跟您做報告火力發電包括我們的不是只有火力包括我們的再生能源那這個部分當然就是大潭的7號機跟9號機"},{"start":2902.807,"end":2921.281,"text":"我們現在再生能源對那另外一個部分就是太陽能跟那個離岸發電太陽能跟離岸發電但是發電的這個價格跟核電差多少當然我們現在的那個這個核能的價格跟太陽能跟離岸風力有一段的一個差差四倍啊"},{"start":2923.345,"end":2939.466,"text":"剛剛本席看了一下台電的官網平均太陽能發電你有90%90%都是跟民間購電你的購電成本是一度電平均來講我沒有高估你們自己的報告你們購電成本一度電是4塊5"},{"start":2940.968,"end":2964.536,"text":"核電的發電成本是1塊1到1塊5之間換言之如果說你今年7月即便你剛剛講是說要用再生能源來補足電補足這個3.1%的缺口你也要以高達4倍的價格的成本的代價來去因應不是嗎那再來現在新任的郭部長他有講到是說寬估未來中長期的用電成長"},{"start":2965.56,"end":2987.046,"text":"代表我覺得郭部長也算是一個很務實跟產業的人所以他也講了未來3年到5年內台灣在AI高科技運算的這一個階段跟競爭我們一定勢必要跑在前面要站在領先群 對不對所以我們台灣未來3到5年內的用電成長我們的需求有多大"},{"start":2988.444,"end":3011.672,"text":"我跟那個委員報告事實上我剛剛提到說我們每年都在做這個用電的需求的評估那您剛剛提到我們郭部長也提到說產業在未來的AI需求事實上這幾年我們已經有把這個半導體跟AI需求的用電的需求加入到我們的用電的評估裡面那當然這個部分確實它的一個成長我們有看到我們成長需要多少的電力"},{"start":3012.852,"end":3037.82,"text":"有媒體講是要三成對有沒有需要再比現在更多三成以上的電力沒有那麼高我想沒有那麼高的部分我想這個部分如果每年用平均的話大概頂多是大概2.7%增加可能到3%左右這樣子每年2.7到3平均每年平均我們原先一估的部分大概是2.7如果把這個AI跟這個半導體加進去我們現在已經在做精算不過初步的部分應該會大到"},{"start":3039.957,"end":3040.679,"text":"平均每年還要增加"},{"start":3046.305,"end":3049.186,"text":"6.2%的核電也要shut down"},{"start":3074.818,"end":3101.145,"text":"然後我們目前火力發電是火力全開了你的燃煤燃氣已經高達火力發電高達八成了你的再生能源又沒有辦法達到那兩成那台灣的電到底何去何從我們要繼續開火力發電你剛剛自己講了我沒有高估你剛剛的話兩分鐘前一年3%以上五年就至少20%"},{"start":3106.478,"end":3130.45,"text":"臺灣未來十年就是會有三成的電力成長那你又不要用核電你的再生能源有辦法在未來十年內可以成長三成嗎你的火力發電現在沒有要在任何一個地方除非你告訴我你未來十年內有選擇哪一個地方再蓋火力電廠但是即便是要選擇蓋火力電廠一座電廠蓋好至少從"},{"start":3131.741,"end":3160.281,"text":"完全都不講說可行進品或還品一個電廠除了要開工到完工6年的時間所以你現在怎麼面對你的能源缺口委員講的都是相當的務實的一個這個說明我們也是依據這個部分在做相關的一個規劃事實上這些電力的需求做規模之後我們規劃就如剛剛您所說的事實上我們從比較潔淨的天然氣跟再生能源的部分"},{"start":3160.641,"end":3179.946,"text":"做最大的一個這個增加的一個這個設置那這個每一年的那個這個相關的再生能源跟這個火力發電的燃氣我們都有比較直接請教啊因為看起來賴總統也沒有提說非核家園嗎過去2016 2020蔡英文總統是把非核家園都當做神主牌賴清德總統沒有提啊"},{"start":3181.066,"end":3208.477,"text":"經濟部會不會主動提核電延役不管是核二廠延役或者是核三廠一號機在7月以前要延役有沒有這個規劃我跟委員報告事實上這些事情必須有很重要的很重要的三個條件第一個條件就是法規的規範法規規範現在我們必須依照法規規範去做處理目前法規規範就是已經都過了延役的一個這樣的一個期間而且我們還是要依據法規規範來處理另外一個會不會主動提修法"},{"start":3209.788,"end":3210.269,"text":"會否主動請現在執政黨的委員來提修法?"},{"start":3225.691,"end":3242.32,"text":"我們不理解過去怎麼處理就怎麼處理尤其是我們看到不管是新北市政府在本席所屬的核一廠在近期內這個月也會提出核一廠的室外乾式儲存的水保證照因此相關的動工興建等等應該時程都會掌握嗎?"},{"start":3247.618,"end":3262.704,"text":"所以本席現在在提到的是說這個是一個負責任的態度現在主事機關以及我們的政府是經濟部你們這邊要去做處理不是什麼責任都是推給立法院來 諸位我在請教喔也一樣"},{"start":3268.564,"end":3284.787,"text":"面對外界越來越多的這個重啟核電的呼籲啊我想和安會有沒有做過砂盤推演因為剛有提到不管是法規的問題不管是相關的部分但如果說現在是政府政策看到我們台灣有能源缺口確實有要重啟"},{"start":3285.948,"end":3303.249,"text":"我當然本席第一安全一定最重要第二一定是要讓大家能夠社會共識但是如果說現在政府的政策就是想要往這邊推你不能說只是丟給說立法院說啊立法院要修法那如果說立法院修法的話也應該要由主事者這邊來負起責任啊"},{"start":3304.438,"end":3332.28,"text":"有沒有做過沙盤推演那個我跟委員報告核安會我剛才在PowerPoint裡面講得很清楚他跟美國的核管會NRC跟日本的原子力規制委員會NRA是一模一樣的他就是負責獨立審查安全的管制機關所以他不負責能源的政策所以你的意思假設本席現在聽得出來你的意思就是說只要"},{"start":3333.041,"end":3354.796,"text":"不管是台電不管是經濟部政府沒有提出研議的需求我們這邊都不會再去評估或是審查到底現在夠不夠安全經濟部或是相關的政府單位也會詢問核安會的意見到底現在這些不管是核二廠核三廠的研議有沒有安全的部分嗎"},{"start":3355.626,"end":3379.98,"text":"安全要由台電來先評估我們如果有拿到資料我們才可以去做所以你們只做審查審查評估我們還要維持所有的問題那本席就請教最近有看到核電廠的審查報告2011年當時的一個福島電廠之後不就有做趁災報告嗎那到現在媒體5月12號的新聞報導核安會還在等台電的審查報告"},{"start":3384.417,"end":3385.491,"text":"十多年過去了"},{"start":3386.428,"end":3387.469,"text":"核能會為什麼還在等報告?"},{"start":3416.628,"end":3432.719,"text":"所以這個是一個非常長的process那麼最近他們審完那麼台電這邊有一些報告那目前在做國外的委員的審查那麼所以通常這報告要多久時間這個可能台電應該是也很快"},{"start":3434.386,"end":3455.842,"text":"來你剛剛主委你講說2013我就以最寬估啊2011發生福島核災之後你們就開始要求了就2013 14要求他做這個審查報告到現在是2024欸10年欸10年改朝換代多少了總統都從馬英九變蔡英文變賴清德了結果審查報告還沒拿到還沒出來"},{"start":3458.664,"end":3472.098,"text":"報告委員大概因為那整個過程要非常冗長沒有問題你用冗長都沒有問題我只問這個報告合理來講 核安會你是監督機關合理來講這報告要多久出來合理來講 國際上合理來講一個報告多久出來"},{"start":3480.353,"end":3496.322,"text":"這個報告基本上就是要這麼長這麼長是多長?10年?報告目前來講因為它有分三個階段那完整的報告目前來看大概只有美國跟台灣有在做"},{"start":3497.142,"end":3510.462,"text":"那其中呢?台灣是從2015開始做2015到現在也10年了嘛目前來講我們已經到第三階段最後一階段目前在做所謂國際同業的這個審查的這個階段好所以這個報告什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":3512.832,"end":3540.501,"text":"因為這個報告裡面有包含防災防震以及相關核能安全的部分嘛這報告什麼時候會出來?台電的完整的報告呢大概目前已經完成了現在就在等國際的這個同業的這個審查我們預估大概應該在今年核三在今年年底那核二應該在明年的明年初大概可以出來今年年底明年初所以到時候這個報告也可以完整的讓國人知道嗎?還要經過匯率審查"},{"start":3542.133,"end":3542.473,"text":"完全沒有問題好"},{"start":3564.478,"end":3587.251,"text":"謝謝主委主委本席會等著看我們的報告那也請加速最重要是以專業來考量不要有任何政治立場好不好謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員主委請回座還有官員請回座好那好的好那接著繼續進行質詢請柯志恩抓委柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":3592.533,"end":3618.713,"text":"謝謝主席,我們先請經濟部的林次長請經濟部林次長市長好,我們現在目前知道核一核二都已經除役了,或是在除役當中那我們今年7月核三也會至停機那我們的興達跟我們的這個麥寮的電廠共四部機組我們也不再發電那剛好都是我們夏季的這個高峰用電量你認為我們的供電會不會有危機"},{"start":3619.674,"end":3637.948,"text":"我想我們已經準備好相關的這個廚藝的機組之後新的機組上來我想這個部分我剛剛已經講過我們根據我們的用電的需求已經做好最好的準備的一個供給能量的準備但是我們還是一一來檢視是不是真的做好因為你們現在新增的發電機組都是燃氣的機組嘛"},{"start":3638.769,"end":3640.85,"text":"您所需要的天然氣在第三接收站明年6月完工之前請問這邊要從哪裡取得"},{"start":3655.954,"end":3666.063,"text":"目前有兩座天然氣的儲存槽一個是在台中另外一個是在高雄但是我知道你會這樣的回應因為你不要說因為原來的舊機組目前為止也是沒有天然氣開供發電你的問題還是一樣的存在因為我們要大量使用2025年我們要大量的使用天然氣但是我們現在所能夠儲能的空間其實都已經佔滿了所以你即使使用這個舊的機組你還是沒有氣可以來做一個這樣的一個處理"},{"start":3681.135,"end":3684.356,"text":"所以好,我們就來看看這是我們大家產業界所提出的一個非常大的問題那接下來就是有的非常多的,你看你們興達一號機跟大潭九號機它可以在六月準時上線嗎?還有你這個七號機有沒有辦法在八月準時上線?目前來說"},{"start":3711.863,"end":3729.753,"text":"這個部分就是在積極的進行當中有沒有辦法保證我想我們會按照我們所規劃的目標來努力達成其實這個就是一個非常重要的我告訴你大家都在挫雷彈啊真的是等一下我還會再就用電的這個部分跟次長請教我們先來關心今天另外一個很大的一個重點因為賴總統他在就職演說喊出的205這個2050年的當中呢他要做個淨零排碳"},{"start":3736.357,"end":3745.049,"text":"那我們你看看核三廠的一號機七月已經停機二號機五年所以失去核三的無碳電力我們這個排碳可以降低570萬噸沒錯吧幾乎佔柴電的排碳的百分之六沒錯啊這個部分佔柴電這是好事啊但是"},{"start":3753.622,"end":3757.203,"text":"市長,去年我國電力排檔的係數降到0.494但是呢根據我們電業法你到20250的時候呢我們的排檔係數應該是0.424我們還差0.07我們還差0.07我們好像看起來這個小數點很小但是0.07以我們目前的排檔來說的話需要20年時間才有辦法達到需要20年才有辦法達到所以2050的經營排檔的政見會不會有機會實現"},{"start":3780.769,"end":3800.874,"text":"市長你的評估我的評估是會實現的為什麼這樣講呢第一個部分剛剛委員問到核三廠如果停機下來的時候它的那個排蛋數減少當然我跟你報告我們的再生能源去年是花了267億度那我們今年會花到413億度左右"},{"start":3801.434,"end":3813.082,"text":"這都增加了將近一百多億你一直在強調再生能源再生能源當然是我們未來的方向因為再生能源所產生的電費剛剛洪孟凱委員已經提到的我就不再贅述我只能要提醒學者來告訴我們說歐盟電力的排碳係數是0.24那台灣是人家的一倍以上連美國用電量這麼高也是0.4那我比較關切的就是我們未來歐盟的碳邊境稅的課徵CBM出國業者使用的電力排碳係數會被納入"},{"start":3828.653,"end":3834.316,"text":"這是一個很嚴重的問題歐盟的定價是每噸100塊美金欸這影響是非常大的那你看核商場除役之後呢這到底會不會影響我們台灣的這個進出口我必須要提出來喔我們目前汪格雄這個總排碳量我們高雄是佔20%喔"},{"start":3845.643,"end":3850.768,"text":"我們是列為高碳牌的企業高達90%我們的石化我們的鋼鐵然後我們台灣出口歐盟最大宗就是鋼鐵業所以鋼鐵業可以受到多好大的影響光是我們這個歐盟的要做這個CBAM的這樣子的一個策略來說你怎麼來面對這樣的問題"},{"start":3863.559,"end":3872.149,"text":"我想大家對西北的部分政府以及民間單位都積極的在進行中那我們依照歐盟的部分在去年你覺得我們的產業界會因為要派出這個碳碳稅的問題的話克制的部分我們預估要多付多少錢"},{"start":3878.456,"end":3896.391,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3896.698,"end":3901.164,"text":"所以說呢你們如果用現有的這個能源的政策的話其實對產業界會造成非常多的影響所以當你們的部長還有包括我們這個國發會他們都是來自這個產業就很清楚你現有的能源的政策是沒有辦法"},{"start":3912.077,"end":3927.404,"text":"能夠符合你2050年淨零排炭的部分嗎?我們來看一下嘛為什麼你們這麼多你賴清德總統講的是第一次能源轉型我不曉得要轉到什麼部分還要強調說我們這第二次我不曉得你今天次長能源的結果是什麼第一次能源轉型這是賴總統講的"},{"start":3930.069,"end":3956.479,"text":"我想我們的能源轉型持續在進行中希望我們是說要有可能更多的一個這個積極的思維來進行能源轉型沒有那你第二次能源轉型指的又是什麼這是賴總統提到的啦他的成效是什麼第二次能源轉型是什麼你會把核能當作是第二次能源轉型的一個主要的一個方向嗎我想我們提到的您剛剛提到的部分就是說總統所提到第二次能源轉型他"},{"start":3957.139,"end":3985.315,"text":"有更進一步的論述是提到說要多元的綠能的一個開發另外一個部分要穩定供電這個部分是我們在進行能源轉向的過程當中如果說我們的能源政策的話不會新商案之間包括國發會還有包括我們的你們的部長都有特別提到你看你在2020年的時候當然他把他一直講說跟進能源後來馬上就說非核家園目標不變然後你們環境部長也馬上說啊也沒有說我就是遵守這個非核的家園但是你會看到我們"},{"start":3986.195,"end":4001.644,"text":"本委員會非常多委員所提出的法案可能都會打點這個環境部裏面所提到的環境基本法那你看看這就是我們目前造成一個能源很大的一個問題更不要說我們現在AI我剛剛聽了部長提到說AI未來可用的部分因為我們的王仁勳提到可能會在台南或高雄選擇一個地方來變成AI的科技產業它會是我們台灣第二個的庫國神山非常的歡迎但是AI所用的耗電量"},{"start":4015.251,"end":4020.414,"text":"高盛評估我覺得次長你有點低估可用的發電量我是根據高盛來評估啊他說AI的供應量在2023到2030年成長160%而且2030年降臨美國總體的電力是8%這是很可怕的而且美國的這個美林的調查報告也說AI的需求量到2023到2028年復合成長率是25到33今天的龍頭的ARM更警告"},{"start":4043.985,"end":4045.866,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒事實上經濟部是隨時在把所需要的用電準備好我們時時在做這個工作"},{"start":4072.435,"end":4100.443,"text":"好了我只能說了你隨時在準備我也不知道是怎麼樣我只問一個啦美國就是因為要面臨這樣的問題所以他把核電作為應對AI高核能的非常重要的一項的一個部分嘛光是過去呢美國就對這個核融核的這個投資已經超過59億美金喔那我們跟他們來比起來我們說實在這一方面真的是比較是落後蠻多的啦那說到非核教育的部分有沒有相關的規劃有沒有跟其他的國家的作戰合作其實你必須要面對的問題啊"},{"start":4102.366,"end":4108.531,"text":"中研院的廖院長他也是在掌握這個部分可是他覺得這個過程來說我們都還是在某一樣的階段中研院抱歉我不太清楚但"},{"start":4119.378,"end":4139.065,"text":"你們跟誰合作?你們有在做這個核融合技術的研發嗎?我們目前為止我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資多少錢在這裡?我們投資的錢跟其他美國的這個先進科技我們還有一段,然後我們還要作為AI,我們還要做半導體,這些都是非常耗電,耗水,耗能源的這個部分,我們到底目前投資了多少錢在這個地方?"},{"start":4140.903,"end":4166.539,"text":"經濟部有做這樣的一個評估嗎?我們未來還要花多少錢在這個地方?我們經濟部會隨時的關注掌握那我跟委員報告我剛剛聽那個我們核安會主委的報告裡面那有相關的技術的一個這個掌握你們隨時掌握但是我們需要清楚的數據因為你投資多少錢能夠多少的產能這才是一個數字數字才讓我們有一個評估的部分我期望經濟部下一次我們有機會在這個地方碰面的時候請你提供給我經費透過經費跟國外的"},{"start":4169.121,"end":4169.882,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請葛如君委員"},{"start":4205.447,"end":4232.287,"text":"謝謝主席有請核安會陳東陽主委跟經濟部的林全能次長備詢好主委跟次長謝謝各位委員早主委早也恭喜您順利留任那林次長好今天很難得經濟部來到教育委員會那您今天站在這裡跟我們的這個核安會的這個主委我相信您應該是認同核能安全的啦那經濟部的書面報告呢清楚的呈現"},{"start":4233.248,"end":4250.917,"text":"接下來的國際能源署的報告裡面有說全球核能的發電占比會先上升再下降2030可能從8%到10%到2050年以後才會再次下降這是全球的趨勢台灣可能沒有辦法獨善其身剛剛提到了這個洪孟凱委員提到"},{"start":4251.637,"end":4272.692,"text":"我們一年很可能會增加3%但接下來關機又少3%所以我想這真的是一個沒有辦法忽視的問題今天是賴政府上台的第10天能源政策關乎我們的每一天的生活但是執政黨的政府對於核能的態度我自己覺得有點友達以上戀人未滿又想報又想不報又想簽又想不簽猶豫不決兩者關係非常曖昧賴總統最屬意的過去曾經討論過的行政院長人選"},{"start":4281.118,"end":4289.132,"text":"童子賢先生就曾經說:「地球暖化才是人類公敵,何能不是?」次長、主委,你們兩位認同這個說法嗎?"},{"start":4294.656,"end":4296.217,"text":"接下來我們還提到這個更多的這種小型核電創新的核電"},{"start":4321.651,"end":4343.752,"text":"還不只是童先生 卓院長也說政府會打造更穩定的經濟發展環境繼續發展綠能但追求非核家園是永不可放棄的目標有人說可以考慮核電有人接著又說一定要非核家園我想請教一下次長我們現在到底是要先追求穩定經濟發展還是先追求非核家園先哪一個"},{"start":4346.482,"end":4370.468,"text":"我想站在經濟部的很重要的任務是要追求我們的經濟的穩定發展先追求穩定發展所以非核家園可能可以放在旁邊了嗎?不是這樣我想經濟部本身考量的那個面向很多好就是是這樣也是那樣啦沒有關係啦我們再來看下一張這個經濟部的部長郭志輝部長上任前就說核能是乾淨的能源上任以後會盡速盤點政策解決問題我們又要昏啦"},{"start":4372.509,"end":4396.062,"text":"又要來擁抱核能那同時呢身兼政委的國科委吳承文主委上週是在這個地方備詢的時候他說他沒有反核神主牌未來如果發展出潔淨安全的核能在這個前提下他認同核能這是原話表達他表達自己立場我再次請問主委跟次長吳主委沒有反核神主牌你們兩位有沒有反核神主牌"},{"start":4397.944,"end":4397.964,"text":"市長"},{"start":4412.022,"end":4424.173,"text":"我們是執行機關,執行機關就依照相關的規定去執行這樣子沒有關係,我們再來看民進黨大佬許信良先生也說不要讓20世紀的民進黨思維來約束21世紀的民進黨政府應該使用核電這4年不改將來也會改因為減碳是世界性的運動"},{"start":4432.42,"end":4452.487,"text":"國發會主委、副主委也說核能政策要尋求全民共識環境部長彭啟明說國際沒有說一定要或一定不要建議盡快凝聚共識但事實上2018年以核養綠的公投結果就已經是一種全民共識了我們到底還要多少的共識你們才願意放下這個神主牌"},{"start":4453.347,"end":4475.116,"text":"說我們就是要演繹我們需要來友善面對核能來承認它是我們接下來必須要存在的一種非常有效的方法同時在你們還不願意承認不願意面對這個核能的時候我們每天每分每秒大家都在吸入大量的空污同時前董事長也提醒煤炭發電現在佔了30幾%"},{"start":4477.037,"end":4494.088,"text":"排放的菸恐怕帶來數千萬人嚴重的肺病或肺癌致死因為是慢性的但是同樣在這個時間點上週四的行政院會和記者會行政院發言人又說再次強調政府不會放棄追求非核家園我們又看到這個東西又被推出去了"},{"start":4495.77,"end":4509.028,"text":"今天我們拿到了這個施政報告這個禮拜五卓榮泰院長要來的施政報告我們翻開一看很抱歉又沒有非核家園了能源政策資質未提非核家園省主牌看起來好像又要轉彎了"},{"start":4511.236,"end":4526.874,"text":"結果呢我們真的是想要來講你們接下來又要來講說綠能啊綠能啊怎麼樣綠能不是不好但是我們也要必須要講綠能本身不要認為它是無害的我們可能是先享受後付款啊次長你認同這個說法嗎你覺得我們這個之後要付款我們存好了嗎"},{"start":4531.946,"end":4553.334,"text":"我想台灣是一個多元的社會每一位都有他不同的看法跟意見那能源的政策發展我們也看到這樣的一個環境就是說各項能源都有不同的一個優劣點我想這個部分是大家都是知道的但是快要沒有電就是事實好不好我想我們在這種薛丁格的狀態不能存在太久"},{"start":4554.954,"end":4583.082,"text":"民進黨政府從蔡英文總統到賴清澤總統神主牌是一種傳承不敢隨便放下有需要的時候就拿起來沒有需要的時候就叫別人說你來碰觸一下我大膽預設接下來的劇情走向民進黨迫於在野黨的壓力為了滿足產業用電的需求無奈情勢只好跟非核家園神主牌還有擁護者們說抱歉民進黨真的不需要這樣一下要一下不要一下是綠一下不綠一下是永和一下是非核想要就大聲說出來"},{"start":4584.102,"end":4602.759,"text":"你如果真的有神主牌你要握著你就握好你不要又拿出來說拜託你把它拿走所以我現在是想要做這件事我幫你們做了一個神主牌神主牌現在給你們一個機會神主牌在這裡你們有沒有人要願意接過去這個神主牌的可不可以願意請舉手我可以給你3秒鐘"},{"start":4610.825,"end":4634.037,"text":"這就是我們的態度到底是要還是不要有人說一定要反核一定要非核然後一下又說一定要綠能我們台灣就快要已經沒有電了核能的6%接下來要剩下3%然後呢一年又有增長率的AI又要增加用6%但是呢我們說安不安全說我現在就直接把它丟到旁邊了我幫你們丟啦齁"},{"start":4635.658,"end":4655.694,"text":"我想本席認為民進黨政府最終一定會走上核電廠延役的這條路我再次問你們同不同意我們已經通過了國會改革武法我們接下來真的是你們如果有開過會已經要丟掉神主牌了我們已經要友善面對核電了其他部會首長都已經講了"},{"start":4657.31,"end":4677.844,"text":"市長,您願不願意承認,我們其實就是要往核電延役這條路了,願不願意承認,雖然我們總統還沒公告啦,還有什麼復議啦,但是我們先練習一下好不好?一個誠懇的...我剛剛已經說明很清楚了,我們經濟部是執行單位,相關的規定就是我們依據的一個很重要的...那部長沒有放棄喔?他擁抱喔?那您會跟隨嗎?他擁抱您跟隨嗎?"},{"start":4680.586,"end":4695.678,"text":"我想我不是我們部長本人基本上委員也不是部長本人那我們經濟部一個很重要的一個這個處理的一致的處理的好打斷您啦就現在在這一刻你們有立場嗎那核安會主委總有立場了吧"},{"start":4697.56,"end":4717.913,"text":"獨立安全管制機關不應該有立場不應該有立場嗎我們來念一下你們的官方網站上面的16個字核安福安核安民眾心安日新又新專業創新你們應該要告訴我們核能是安全的現在就需要這樣的東西你應該要來告訴我們"},{"start":4719.014,"end":4731.906,"text":"核安會要來負責讓核能安全結果你剛剛的報告有這麼多人要研議結果你說的是什麼呢核安會尊重大院委員提案核能要能夠確保核安要能夠確保核安要能夠確保是你的責任你怎麼會來跟這些提案的委員講說你要核安要能夠確保呢"},{"start":4740.031,"end":4744.055,"text":"好沒有關係我想接下來我們今天有了新的國會新的氣象我也希望未來我們有更良善的交流我們未來有什麼樣的政策我們就大膽的說出來大家一起來準備今天國安會的報告裡面有提到國際上近期重要的核能會議有結論"},{"start":4758.251,"end":4759.351,"text":"在COP28期間美國與21個國家共同發起2050年前致力將核電裝置的容量提升為3倍的聯合倡議這裡面有很多的創新的核電技術2024年3月的核能高峰會"},{"start":4776.519,"end":4794.405,"text":"宣誓指示利用核能協助實現全球碳中和的目標很多的領袖也共同發表聲明部署先進的反應器確保最高程度的安全和保障多位與會領導人表明要讓現有核反應器延長運轉這是你們今天的核安會報告結果我們在這裡問"},{"start":4798.055,"end":4811.916,"text":"也不接神主牌也不說我們接下來核電要不要延役在這邊就像一個薛丁格的貓盒子就是死不打開到底活到底死到底安全到底不安全到底要核電不要核電都不願意講"},{"start":4813.444,"end":4827.698,"text":"沒有關係我們還有時間但是這個時間真的滴滴答答的在倒數我想接下來不管你們是要除役還是運轉還是延役我也期待你們像報告裡面所講的為民眾的安全把關"},{"start":4829.181,"end":4843.793,"text":"我做好了投影片我今天本來是希望可以打開這個薛丁格的盒子告訴我們到底你們是站在什麼樣的態度你們是同意全民的共識以核養綠嗎?你也是追求經濟發展嗎?神主牌要退場嗎?叫我把它丟掉嗎?核電廠要延役嗎?剛剛還是很感謝次長您有說追求經濟發展優先我覺得這個很好"},{"start":4853.661,"end":4868.7,"text":"至少這個盒子開了一滴滴然後呢我剛剛想說你們就大膽的說我就是要飛核家園我持續下去我一點點都不退縮抱歉你們也不願意走這個路線所以我已經幫你們做好了今天的結論以上皆非啦"},{"start":4869.361,"end":4872.563,"text":"您剛所提到的我還要再去買更多的電我們的經費在哪裡我要再去種更多的綠電那我們的做法是什麼我們要有更多的火力發電廠我們要蓋在哪裡"},{"start":4890.436,"end":4910.076,"text":"重整我們剛才的討論我想經濟部安和安會今天都沒有辦法很肯定的回答這些問題我投影片直接就做好了時空旅人本來應該有的薛丁格的主委今天可能再加上薛丁格次長本席還是呼籲民進黨政府執政黨要誠實面對整個部會要一致的做法跟說法"},{"start":4910.436,"end":4931.713,"text":"最後引述童子賢董事長所說的電力及國力穩定供電供電品質淨零碳排這幾個條件加總起來就是我們的國力請民進黨政府執政黨真實面對民眾與產業的需求真實面對自己的內心明知道言以勢在必行就勇敢說出來勇敢把法案提出來謝謝好謝謝兩位謝謝葛如君委員接下來我們請岳元之委員"},{"start":4951.67,"end":4957.376,"text":"麻煩請那個核安會主委還有我們經濟部次長還有主委還有次長謝謝主委好 次長好"},{"start":4962.638,"end":4982.81,"text":"我今天早上看報紙就是那個國安會主委劉靜卿他說他不排斥使用核能那他講一個非常關鍵的東西他說只要能夠把核廢料做良好的儲存他就不排斥核能所以換句話說國安會主委的認定裡面他認為核安不是太大的問題啦否則他就會把核安這個條件把它加進去嘛"},{"start":4983.65,"end":4984.511,"text":"我再一次秀這個表格"},{"start":5010.63,"end":5031.801,"text":"這是我們核安會的一個表格2022的修訂版它有針對我們最終核廢料的處置場所有一些計劃比如說在2017年必須要先提出候選場址的建議調查區域先請教一下2017年提出的候選場址的建議調查區域是哪裡"},{"start":5034.377,"end":5036.379,"text":"主要是高階核廢料用過核燃料這一塊的最終處置的部分"},{"start":5054.313,"end":5080.51,"text":"因為必須 必須要整個台灣去做所謂的地質調查跟地質專探可是因為他沒有法源目前來講沒有法源依據所以台電公司其實在做任何的地質調查跟地質的專探呢其實上都會受到民間的 這個問題我都可以回答好不好是所以目前 知道我的問題是什麼嗎我知道所以目前來講是沒有調查是吧對就是因為沒有法源的依據 那這個計畫是寫好玩的喔嗯?"},{"start":5083.376,"end":5099.333,"text":"那你2017年說要提出候選場址的建議調查區域2017離現在都已經7年了對2017有2017有提出來但是2017你必須要做整個地質的專談地質的調查那這一塊因為在那我先問你2017你提出來的是哪裡嗎"},{"start":5102.948,"end":5125.218,"text":"有,我們有,當時有嘗試的要去做,比如說像金門啊,或者花蓮金門,花蓮,就是本來有考慮要把核廢料放在金門跟花蓮是不是?沒有,不是這樣,就是說先做初步的所謂的地質調查嘛,對嘛,那你先選你覺得有可能放地方才會去調查,不然你調查幹嘛?那現在經過七年,那有什麼進展嗎?"},{"start":5128.191,"end":5144.496,"text":"目前來講我們大概因為在整個的組織本來這個立法的部分是在核安會就是以前的原能會但是原能會後來改制以後變核安會以後所以目前這個所謂立法的已經歸到經濟部這邊來所以目前來講"},{"start":5145.436,"end":5166.806,"text":"不好意思 我時間很有限 你可不可以針對我 問題那麼簡單所以因為在立法 因為沒有法源依據 所以我們目前來講所以沒有調查嘛 現在是這個意思是不是目前來講 就沒有做事嘛 好啦 那請教 那所以後面那個計畫全部pending嗎不是 所以我們先技術工程 就是說我們先跟科技合作好 沒關係 您是副總嘛對不對 是那請教一下 2025年根據你這個計畫 2025年要完成組織廠概念設計 那現在進行怎麼樣"},{"start":5173.427,"end":5195.285,"text":"你有哪些概念設計在進行目前的部分我們大概就參與整個國際的合作,包括分欄的因為分欄他大概今年來講他的最終處置的部分會做私運船計劃所以我們大概今年的下半年會參與他的一個私運船計劃會參與分欄的私運計劃對好那請教一下2025年你有可能會完成概念想設計嗎"},{"start":5196.89,"end":5219.381,"text":"目前我們會在努力但是最基礎還是要有一個法院的意見2026年有沒有可能會完成候選長職的特性調查與評估這個我們會努力2017年你都說你Pending的你2026年可以完成喔不要來這邊呼嚨啦我都是以臣代人啦但是大家講話不要把人當笨蛋好不好2017年你就已經講了你就說你當時就遇到困難結果你2026年跟我說你會努力做不做得到啦"},{"start":5229.019,"end":5241.091,"text":"我今天劉靜卿國發會主委講的喔只要讓核廢料有能夠妥善的儲存他都不排斥用核電結果你們現在負責處理核廢料單位講話一個比一個呼嚨"},{"start":5242.816,"end":5252.519,"text":"什麼時候完成?你跟我講一個時辰。什麼時候完成?參與合作什麼意思?我現在講的是你核廢料什麼時候可以處理嗎?台灣的核廢料候選場址什麼時候完成調查?什麼時候提出場址?什麼時候選出永久的核廢料的儲存場?什麼時候?"},{"start":5266.995,"end":5290.355,"text":"因為所有的最終處置都是一個零幣設施什麼時候嘛 所以一輩子做不到是不是那你今天劉靜卿國發會主委講的這個話 白講了嘛因為他認為說只要處理好核廢料 核能不排斥結果我們處理核廢料單位台電跟核安會這種態度說因為有零幣設施 然後因為法規所以我不去進行處理 我就擺爛"},{"start":5291.656,"end":5305.709,"text":"所以我們有提出所謂的你們現在你們台電都沒有感覺到方向轉了以前在蔡英文政府時代只要講到核每一個人下了鑰匙不敢講結果現在民進黨的政務官一個一個出來表態經濟部長出來表態"},{"start":5309.091,"end":5331.296,"text":"國八會主委出來表態還有你們賴總統好朋友童子賢出來表態大家都認為說可以使用核電結果要使用核電必須要排除的問題你們一副就是無所謂的樣子然後那現在是在唱雙簧是不是?呃 報委員所以因為最終...不用再報告了啦你又沒辦法解決嘛台電沒辦法次長請問一下現在核備料有辦法處理嗎?"},{"start":5334.98,"end":5353.989,"text":"我現在講的是你們計畫欸我現在不是我自己掰一個時辰說你明天給我處理我是按照你的計畫結果問到2017是這樣回答我問到2025是這樣回答我問到2026是這樣回答我跟委員很坦誠的報告核配料的處理現在是一個大問題那你有沒有去跟劉靜清講"},{"start":5355.492,"end":5367.356,"text":"我想那個劉委員他的一個發言我不太清楚劉主委來把他叫小了啦劉主委的發言我不太清楚但是我很坦誠的跟委員報告您剛剛問到的問題我們核廢料處理是個大問題大問題我就不問了啦我就是要你講出這個實話啦那請問一下那個台電我想問一下我們板橋上個月下大雨就停電怎麼回事"},{"start":5383.11,"end":5392.547,"text":"這部分大概停電的部分喔大概那個應該不叫停電那個應該叫做異常就是非預期的停電嘛就是家裡沒有電可以用就停電嘛你這個也要在那邊凹喔"},{"start":5394.107,"end":5411.201,"text":"你要不要去問一下小老百姓什麼叫停電就是他的電開關打開沒有電就叫停電我現在問你怎麼回事怎麼造成的我不是說缺電你不用緊張我說怎麼形況造成的那個大概設備的故障為什麼設備的故障所以為什麼我告訴你好不好下大雨雨衝到所謂的那個電掀桿上面的開關就壞掉"},{"start":5420.369,"end":5441.266,"text":"所以在我們五年的一個...所以你們任性電網在哪裡?沒有,所以在我們五年的情況下...副總我跟你講齁,我現在不去跟你變什麼缺電問題啦你現在如果沒有把電網把它弄好,一樣會停電啦台電編了一千億說要做任性電網結果做的結果還是一樣下大雨停電,怎麼樣停電?潰線跳脫停電,小動物停電"},{"start":5443.018,"end":5467.655,"text":"你還讓人家沒有電可以用啊我想問一下到底什麼時候可以要把這個韌性電網做好你們預計還要花多少錢才有辦法把韌性電網做好預計還要花多少錢目前來講我們大概有一個五年的計畫在走大概多少錢逐年編列多少錢逐年編列多少應該差不多一千億到兩億逐年編列一千億不是逐年總共大概要花"},{"start":5470.004,"end":5495.43,"text":"總共花了兩千億就做得好嗎目前來講大概因為你花一千億做不好嘛那你現在又增加一千億所以其實有一項剛才委員有提到就是外在的我們會去做外在你現在連下雨都會停電而且我覺得每次怪小動物我也小動物感到不值啊你不能做一些防弊設施讓小動物不要進來嗎小動物進來我們人類是停電小動物是生命的喪屍啊"},{"start":5496.65,"end":5511.776,"text":"所以我們以來就做包覆這個問題你講多久台電因為你們就補貼太多發電成本嘛所以不願意花錢去做電網嘛然後一直講那個再生能源再生能源過去8年成長多少多少過去8年再生能源成長多少"},{"start":5518.2,"end":5534.104,"text":"我想我們再生能源過去8年成長了數十倍5%啦數十倍那是設置量5%對嘛你設定2025年非核家園再生能源是20%結果你再生能源只有增加5%你還有10%發電的數那我剛剛提到海生的設置容量"},{"start":5540.646,"end":5560.838,"text":"不用,不用跟我講在深圳現在就是成長造成的障礙瓶頸嘛所以才有那麼多人講核電嘛好不好我剛剛講那些問題我不知道為什麼今天來備詢的官員都沒有準備就來就來備詢然後一問三不知時間拖完之後然後就沒事了"},{"start":5562.675,"end":5591.442,"text":"現在,還是要提醒你們啦今天我相信剛剛很多委員都有提到核電的問題現在是所有你們的長官都認為說核電應該要繼續使用所以這個部分你們要認真啦不是說我一問你們那個核電廠的核廢料的廠址就一問三不知不做沒關係啦林併設施然後什麼講一大堆理由這個沒有處理就算你們的長官想要研議核電也都很困難啦好謝謝"},{"start":5592.957,"end":5602.161,"text":"謝謝委員好我們謝謝葉仁志委員接下來我們請謝謝我們現在請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席這邊請何安慰陳主委經濟部林次長以及臺電許副總經理好我們請臺電還有我們經濟部次長還有我們的陳主委謝謝"},{"start":5621.206,"end":5643.827,"text":"委員好早安因為今天時間不多所以請大家一起上來節省時間首先我要先請教我們次長台灣我們受制於是海島型的國家結構所以我們電力必須自給自足那人員專家有提醒就是台灣會有缺電的危機必須儘早做準備那在這邊我想請教次長台灣缺不缺電"},{"start":5644.741,"end":5659.893,"text":"我剛剛提到過我們每年都在做未來5到10年的供電的需求的評估依據這個評估我們把所要供電的這些相關的建設做好所以依據這樣的台電同仁跟我們經濟部同仁的努力我們認為沒有缺電的問題"},{"start":5661.269,"end":5681.399,"text":"雖然你們在做評估有在做努力也有做相關的一些持續的一些建設但是就發生在3個月桃園4月的時候有跳電35次引發民怨那上個禮拜23日呢早上呢臺北士林有1.2萬戶跳電連故宮呢北院都沒電可用讓外國來的遊客都很傻眼那下午換成聖望華跳電26日的時候新竹香山有1300戶大停電"},{"start":5686.662,"end":5711.897,"text":"所以說台電你們這邊雖然當時有說明說是天然災害及人為因素但是一定會被誤解成缺電所以說是相關的設施相當的管理還是人力不足你們到底該努力的地方在哪裡你們自己有釐清嗎我想這個部分確實跳電的狀況出現很多那我們都把問題掌握出來就拿桃園地區的部分來看的話事實上桃園人口成長"},{"start":5713.557,"end":5737.969,"text":"近幾年平均大概11%左右那我們的電力網的一個成長只成長4%這樣的差距就讓整個供電的狀況那所以就是你們設施的提升不足啊是那另外一個部分就是說我們也加速在把設施能夠提升出來所以才有加強電力網的這樣的一個計畫來加速相關的一個推動工作市長 既然我們覺得不缺電所以我們就要確保供電無虞不跳電"},{"start":5738.809,"end":5762.263,"text":"這是給民眾的承諾這是我們要做到沒錯台灣在世界產業的供應鏈上是非常重要的角色所以企業跟民眾都需要穩定的供電那所以說我這邊要要求你們要盡快盡速努力的去發展多元的綠能智慧電網才能夠強化我們電力系統的韌性那我們蔡英文總統在今年卸任前的最後一次元旦記者會有強調非核家園不能走回頭路"},{"start":5765.205,"end":5769.168,"text":"台灣的社會不應該持續在核電的爭議上來打轉而是應該在非核的選項中大步前進那環境基本法的第23條有規定政府應訂定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標那雖然目前核能佔比已經降到全國的發電量是6.3%"},{"start":5785.299,"end":5801.011,"text":"非核家園政策不變之下那核三廠一號機在今年七月會停止運轉二號機在明年五月也會停止運轉那這樣子造成的這個電力的供應缺口會不會讓全台有停電的這個疑慮呢"},{"start":5801.972,"end":5806.414,"text":"我剛剛講過我們依據這個電力的需求跟電力的供給的情形我們都做好準備了那河山的這個即將的一個7月27號河山廠的一號機的這個停止運轉事實上我們都準備好相關的供應的電力準備所以你們都已經評估過了當一號機它停止運轉之後又有什麼其他的電來補足這個缺口"},{"start":5825.623,"end":5827.164,"text":"雖然我們國內也一直努力的在推動綠電包括像屋頂重電、離岸風電等政策但是其實再生能源占比也增加不到6%"},{"start":5850.259,"end":5860.941,"text":"那經濟部跟台電公司你們一定要去重視這個問題的嚴重性喔在這邊也要請教四屆五屆的環評到現在沒有通過我目前的狀況是怎樣遇到什麼樣的難題我想四屆的部分主要是環評嘛那環評我們繼續努力在做溝通我們會來進行做好更好的溝通讓環評的一個這個後續的進展能夠順利"},{"start":5873.484,"end":5886.067,"text":"所以你只是說會盡量的來溝通努力讓後面的環評能夠順利但是你自己有沒有預定一個怎樣的啟程去完成它這個部分我可不可以請我們台電了這一部分大概就是還是要社會溝通的這一塊還要再努力就是說目前來看大概環評我們一定還你們遇到的瓶頸是什麼"},{"start":5897.841,"end":5920.536,"text":"地方還是在地方上地方上有不同的聲音所以你們還要很大的努力去做溝通跟協調是是這個部分也希望盡快有好消息因為對於我們整個電力怎樣可以供應無虞其實在我們的企業跟民生都非常的重要因為你們的停電跳電可能造成企業的損失那一般的民生一般的店家也可能就有這樣的擔憂的話其實我覺得這個對社會都是一個很不良的現象"},{"start":5925.579,"end":5951.63,"text":"接下來我要請教 核安委這邊報告說核三廠用過燃料池的儲存空間有限僅可公約運轉數年因此不論廚藝或研藝干式儲存設施必須興建才能推動相關的作業我再想問一下我們許副總經理核三廠的干式儲存設施你們現在遇到的困難是什麼"},{"start":5952.588,"end":5965.942,"text":"核電廠的目前來講大概乾儲的部分我們大概就是直接走室內乾儲的部分那現在他大概還可以3到5年的部分還有空間"},{"start":5967.21,"end":5994.198,"text":"那如果我說那個必須乾式儲存設施必須興建啟用才能推動相關作業那所謂的必須興建啟用的在這一塊你們所做的評估你們所做的現在遇到的困難是什麼現在室內乾除的部分的興建沒有困難大概我們預定大概今年準備來所謂的招標今年就可以招標對今年年底"},{"start":5995.748,"end":6019.216,"text":"好那這邊我先請教我們陳主委核安會這邊報告說有關委員女巨的核子反應器設施研議條例草案以及核子反應器設施管制法第6條條文修正草案呢核安會會尊重各委員的提案那如果真的法案是有通過了關於核二重啟核三研議我們會有什麼困難嗎"},{"start":6022.209,"end":6035.277,"text":"核安會主要還是一個獨立的安全管制機關那麼我們會從這個安全的部分來著手那麼這個部分那當然核廢料也要同步優先的來處理"},{"start":6036.977,"end":6057.65,"text":"因為其實如何確保核能安全在民眾的期待這一塊民眾是非常非常的擔心因為核二的重啟跟核三的延役主要是因為對民眾來講是安全的考量確定不確定有沒有電可以用當然是非常的重要是攸關民生但是關於生命健康的安全是民眾更重視的"},{"start":6059.071,"end":6062.832,"text":"所以我這邊要想知道說如果萬一委員提的因為你們尊重嘛那萬一委員提的這個案子是有過的那核二重啟核三延役真的會執行嗎真的是核二可以重啟核三就會延役嗎民眾想知道的是這樣子的狀況是不是請我們主委這邊可以說明一下"},{"start":6082.777,"end":6104.436,"text":"這個部分能源政策還是要由經濟部來回答因為他這邊要從需求面政策面來著手我沒有問你政策我現在是問說以您在核安的專業上您的以您的專業的角度來看核二是可以重啟的嗎或是核三就直接是這樣可以研議的嗎他在這個他的執行面上"},{"start":6105.197,"end":6112.908,"text":"是可以這樣子直接就核二重啓或核三延役嗎還是它必須經過怎樣的程序或者說它必須經過怎樣的一個時程"},{"start":6115.216,"end":6135.668,"text":"他必須經過很嚴格的一個安全審查那麼這個部分大概需要一段的很長的時間那麼發動者應該從經營者也就是台電當然前面必須要修法在前面必須能源政策確定那核安會其實是在後段"},{"start":6137.029,"end":6156.091,"text":"主要是著重在這個能源安全核能安全的部分那麼核二廠還有更大的麻煩因為它的乾除設施還沒有興建那麼它現在也這個用過燃料池也滿足剛才我在報告裡面都有說明所以它的困難度更高"},{"start":6157.222,"end":6159.684,"text":"主委在這邊我再跟你強調我今天沒有跟你問政策我也沒有跟你問說我們這個本身你們的立場在哪裡是為民眾來問因為民眾擔心核二重啓或是核三延役到底對民眾的生命健康安全影響有多大"},{"start":6175.558,"end":6179.52,"text":"他們很擔心萬一法案真的過了隨隨便便核二就重啟了核三就說延役就延役了那到底在安全上的評估有沒有經過一個審慎的一個程序是不是這樣子會不會造成大家生命財產健康的這個擔憂這個部分是民眾想要知道的所以我在這邊一直在這個問題上請你要說清楚說明白說說不是核二要重啟就重啟"},{"start":6200.208,"end":6204.771,"text":"也不是核酸說研議就研議他必須經過一個相當嚴謹的一個評估的過程還有相當的一些程序是不是這樣子完全正確對這邊我希望說核安慰要用你們的專業來守護民眾的健康沒有疑慮那經濟部這邊我也希望說你們在穩定供電的這個職責不論你們在設備上在人力上在管理上都要更嚴謹精進這是你們的責任好那我時間到了謝謝"},{"start":6236.111,"end":6236.811,"text":"請林次長跟陳主委我們請主委跟次長"},{"start":6261.069,"end":6282.662,"text":"市長跟昨天早其實我想核安的問題跟核廢料的處置的問題我認為這個事情是不分藍綠的我相信沒有哪一個政黨的委員會希望安全亂搞或者是核廢料亂搞"},{"start":6284.827,"end":6308.86,"text":"那我這邊其實我是很想順著剛剛國民黨業源執委員問的問題再往下問的齁剛剛次長說我們現在核廢的處置齁其實處置跟儲存不一樣啦齁 處置指的是最終處置事實上昨天我看了一下國發會劉金星主委的講法其實有一個地方看起來是有一點不太精準齁"},{"start":6309.941,"end":6333.055,"text":"其實歐盟並沒有說有儲存它就是綠能其實歐盟的說法是核電要有詳細的負責任的最終處置計畫它才能夠被列入綠色融資這其實還是有一些差別的那我就是現在想問現在我們在談假設談最終處置剛剛次長說現在核廢料的處置是大問題"},{"start":6340.937,"end":6359.991,"text":"問題在哪?我跟委員報告確實我們現在核廢料的一個處理他是需要去尋找適當的最終處置我剛剛提到的那個大問題他是一個很複雜的問題比如說我們最終處置要去做這個相關的調查因為沒有法律的規定都沒有辦法去做調查"},{"start":6363.382,"end":6390.696,"text":"其實我們應該更清楚的讓大家知道現在核廢處置最大的問題我今天不管哪一個國家我要怎麼處理核廢料他都要一個地點嘛他都要一個location嘛核廢料不會飄在空中嘛核廢料沒有辦法打到外太空嘛我都要一個地點嘛那這個地點他就需要一個具體的空間嘛所以我們現在遇到最大的問題就是這空間到底在哪裡"},{"start":6392.248,"end":6410.883,"text":"這可能不是簡單的技術問題這就是一個地點在哪裡的問題所以我想問現在新北市侯市長有說他願意作為最終處置長職嗎?噢沒有這不是他自對屏東現在有河山周縣長有說他願意成為最終處置長職嗎?"},{"start":6413.259,"end":6440.342,"text":"現在有哪一個縣市表態說他願意成為最終處置場址目前都沒有這問題是在這裡嘛今天如果沒有一個縣市願意成為最終處置場址請問最終處置場址的選址不管條例怎麼定終究無法前進嘛你可能去做一個地質調查人家就打槍你了吧你說我來做核廢最終處置場址的地質調查他就不讓你進去了"},{"start":6442.921,"end":6467.798,"text":"所以今天我覺得這部分經濟部是可以講清楚的我們不是要把這件事情推給地方政府不是不是要推給地方政府是明確的在這個技術尋找長期的過程他就是要一個地點嘛今天只要這個地點沒出來我坦白說你不管這上面計畫怎麼寫那個都是虛的我自己很清楚你可以做很多paperwork"},{"start":6469.127,"end":6493.635,"text":"但只要那個地點連潛在廠址候選廠址都不願意被列入的狀況之下後面有很多工作是絕對進行不下去的嘛對不對次長是我想委員很清楚的道出我們在進行最終組織廠址選址的這個面臨上的問題次長當然我這個意思不是說你就不用努力就一個政府該負責任政策的角度來說經濟部當然要努力去尋找"},{"start":6495.282,"end":6497.263,"text":"我看到了一些現在在黨的委員在提出關於原液的修法的版本裡面我看到了一個狀況"},{"start":6515.967,"end":6533.974,"text":"我看到好像有部分的委員提出來的版本是想要讓我們的核電廠在沒有執照的狀況下就能繼續運轉這讓大家會很擔心在喪失執照或執照到期狀況之下還可以讓它繼續運轉我要問台電"},{"start":6540.785,"end":6567.154,"text":"沒有執照就沒辦法運轉一個核電機組有辦法在執照失效到期種種的狀況之下沒有執照的情境下還可以繼續運轉嗎?不行這是法規的問題還是安全的問題?有法規的問題也有安全的問題我坦白說今天嚴義與否今天在黨有各種不同的看法跟立場這個事情大家尊重但我卻看到裡面有部分的版本"},{"start":6568.542,"end":6587.077,"text":"是要萬核電廠在沒有執照就能夠運轉喔今天一台車沒有駕照沒有死照可以上路嗎我覺得這個事情其實已經觸犯了很大的安全上的紅線了"},{"start":6589.707,"end":6609.583,"text":"今天我們用什麼方式來確保核電廠的安全我們就是在執照的審查上面設下了諸多嚴格的關卡來確保你要拿這個執照你就要符合一定的安全上面的要求所以如果今天一個核電廠可以在沒有執照或執照喪失狀況之下還能夠運轉請問確保安全的機制怎麼產生 諸位"},{"start":6619.814,"end":6626.479,"text":"主委但是現在國民黨在黨的修法是要說法規上面我就直接讓你允許你沒有執照可以繼續運轉"},{"start":6644.709,"end":6666.073,"text":"這在安全上面請問你們要怎麼確保所以沒有辦法來確保安全問題所以這不是修法的問題對不對是安全的問題這是安全的問題沒有執照的確保就沒有安全對你來說是這樣很清楚對不對是的很清楚我覺得這個是言語與否我覺得大家可以各自討論但如果要去闖這條紅線讓他在沒有執照就要去運轉這等於是要犧牲"},{"start":6673.291,"end":6674.892,"text":"接下來我們請萬美玲委員"},{"start":6698.155,"end":6707.426,"text":"謝謝召委,我想我們請經濟部的林次長,臺電的副總以及我們的主委一起上來好了。好,謝謝三位麻煩。"},{"start":6714.293,"end":6720.277,"text":"首先我想請教一下次長還有徐副總一起準備我想從4月15日台電承認這個機組跳脫供電吃緊那備載容量只剩下3%開始期我們桃園就成為一個停電斷電的一個重災區那從這個4月16到5月12根據桃園市政府他的統計停電已經超過28次了前前後後高達將近9萬5千戶受到這個停電的影響"},{"start":6743.075,"end":6760.1,"text":"那如果要再往前往後再算我覺得那個影響互助其實是更多的那大概上個禮拜六其實也很高興看到我們這個卓榮泰院長到桃園來視察那他剛上任就到桃園來可見他也知道這個問題非常嚴重不過比較美中不足的是"},{"start":6761.52,"end":6785.709,"text":"院長到桃園來既沒有通知桃園市政府也沒有通知本席我們都沒有辦法在第一時間來知道問題的所在或者是提供他我們所知道的訊息我們希望這個部分以後是不是臺電或者是經濟部這裡能夠通知一下我想請教一下次長跟副總總統和院長他說電路是國安層次的問題安全穩定的供電是政府對人民跟全世界的承諾這是對的嗎"},{"start":6787.483,"end":6791.546,"text":"這是我們要做到的任務所以你就是對桃園來講對桃園來講這是嚴重的跳票所以這就是承認了桃園的供電其實是有相當的問題所以我想跳電停電一直這麼頻繁我們更要知道問題點是什麼我們要知道真正的原因是什麼不要老是告訴我們不是鳥就是蛇不是蛇就是螞蟻不是螞蟻又是樹木我覺得這是亂七八糟"},{"start":6813.343,"end":6839.914,"text":"最後還要我們去體恤桃園臺電的這些從業人員本席告訴你我們臺電在桃園所有從政人員真的非常優秀非常的專業但是如果相關的能源政策或是電網的脆弱不是他們能夠去負這個責任的我覺得今天要他們在第一線去承擔我覺得壓力真的是非常大所以我想請教一下次長現在桃園停電到底是什麼原因"},{"start":6840.734,"end":6848.664,"text":"我想地區的停電大部分都是輸就是那個配電的配電的電網所造成的問題那這個造成部分大概"},{"start":6849.696,"end":6868.426,"text":"一半以上是外力一半以上是設備的一個老舊的一個問題處理市長我想過去台電在這裡那我們陸陸續續在各種不同的預算給台電已經高達了4000億今天本席聽到你在答詢的時候還提到說後面好像還有一個1000億還是2000億要繼續再來做4000億也都給了你了那我們看到我們整個電網的狀況還是這麼的脆弱那我想當然我們後續還是要持續的去加強"},{"start":6879.632,"end":6892.43,"text":"該撥補的預算我們當然還是要給但是呢我覺得最重要的是你要知道問題出在哪裡你才有辦法對症下藥嘛所以呢我本期在這邊要求喔次長我想我們希望經濟部能夠立即來研議喔我們將來喔大規模這種停電的這個狀況喔"},{"start":6895.214,"end":6922.592,"text":"不是台電說了算你呼嚨塞給我們一個理由我們就必須要去接受這樣的一個理由我們希望能夠由外部專家學者組成停跳電的這個原因調查委員會然後呢我們有更多公正的人士進來針對國內大規模的這個跳電停電的事故調查然後公佈原因這個可以在一個月之內延映出來做得到嗎相關的一個這個區域的跳電我們都會把原因檢討出來那我們願意提供這相關的資料給"},{"start":6923.841,"end":6942.621,"text":"市長本席講的很清楚請你聽明白一點我講的是說你不管是某一個區域某一個區域只要不管在哪一個區域大規模的停電都不是說經濟部或台電說了算說這是什麼原因因為你公佈的現在就是沒有公信力嘛所以本席希望能不能研議在一個月之內我們看看怎麼樣成立這個跳電或者停電的這個原因調查委員會由外部的專家學者一起進來"},{"start":6947.145,"end":6971.781,"text":"這可以做研議嗎?我想我們很願意邀請外部專家那台電已經朝這方面在進行中好 那我們一個月之內把這個報告提出來好嗎?好 那我想新上任經濟部長我想郭部長也說到說賴總統有指示他要跨部會來檢討能源政策這件事是真的嗎?我想總統很清楚的這個這是不是真的我想能源的部分本來就是跨部會在處理當中這樣子次長"},{"start":6973.055,"end":6980.608,"text":"但現在問題是說我們的郭部長有說賴總統有指示他要做這個跨部會檢討能源政策這點你知道嗎"},{"start":6982.626,"end":7007.574,"text":"我想總統怎麼跟部長講的我不是很清楚但是在部裏面就是在...所以你不清楚這麼大的事情總統交代給部長而次長卻不清楚喔那我覺得你真的要好好去檢討一下我會檢討我個人會檢討好不好好不好那來那所以能源政策如果沒有任何的錯誤喔那為什麼要通盤去檢討顯示就是有問題嗎所以次長我想目前的能源政策我想這不是錯誤的問題對不起喔我還沒有讓他讓你答對不起好"},{"start":7008.234,"end":7011.337,"text":"能源的問題事實上有多元面向我們都在積極的檢討中那我想每一個都是我們可能要去面對的問題"},{"start":7035.988,"end":7057.225,"text":"市長 本席再請教你 我想在蔡政府的時候能源政策曾經說過要在2025年要達成能源轉型的發電佔比那再生能源要能夠達到20%但我們現在可以看到7年下來了我們的這個能源的再生能源的部分大概只有提升了4.9%那很清楚的也承認了就是能源轉型的一個跳票"},{"start":7058.306,"end":7078.113,"text":"那麼再生能源這個成長速度非常的慢而且我想您也一定知道太陽能跟風電都具有不穩定性所以本期來討論這個核三廠一號機組的運轉執照就要在今年的七月到期二號機組也要在明年五月屆期那這個意味著就是核能在2023年178.02億度電在這個明年就全部歸零請教一下這一些已經歸零的電我們要從哪裡去補"},{"start":7086.176,"end":7090.081,"text":"我們有做完整的供電提供事實上會從幾個燃氣電廠跟再生能源、太陽光電跟離岸風力去年的核二廠廚藝的時候當時的黃美化部長說他要用大潭八號機組跟通宵小型機來補但是我們看到台電的官網當中"},{"start":7104.617,"end":7109.12,"text":"大潭八號機仍在試運轉測試中根本沒有辦法立即補上而用燃氣發電的缺點我想不管是發電成本貴或者是運送接收需要特殊的設備還有一些風險同時甲烷也可能會造成全球暖化等等我想這些問題都在了所以次長我再請教您"},{"start":7126.851,"end":7138.392,"text":"現在如果供電不足或者供電不穩定影響的我們知道不是只有民生用電還包含工業用電請問您知道一下我們的護國神山台積電一年的用電量大概是多少嗎?"},{"start":7139.546,"end":7143.451,"text":"我沒有很完整的資訊不過應該會超過百億度本席告訴您台積電在2022年整年的用電量高達210.8億度這是什麼樣的概念就是比整個核三廠目前整年的發電量178億度還要多"},{"start":7157.907,"end":7166.891,"text":"所以我想我們都知道台積電可能會繼續在今年在台灣新建三座晶圓廠還有兩座先進的封裝廠到時候整個用電量恐怕會再創新高那我們看到賴慶德總統說要打到AI之倒但是次長這個AI也需要用電"},{"start":7176.696,"end":7200.827,"text":"不管是我們看到紐約客的報導指出在這個OpenAI的CHAP GPT每一天消耗的電力超過50萬度那麼輝達的網站自己也指出一座有10萬顆H100晶片的AI資料中心它需要的是100兆網的一個電這都非常大量的請問次長經濟部我們有預估我們發展AI需要耗多少的電"},{"start":7202.082,"end":7226.916,"text":"我跟委員報告我們都在做這個同步的一個掌握跟預估那您剛剛提供的資料像OPEN這個CHAP GT它做的部分是那種大型的語言訓練目前不會在台灣做大型的語言訓練那我們會從這個應用端的部分來做微調我想這個是目前台灣在這個AI的一個發展中那本席就很簡單請教您一下那如果因您的看法跟您的專業目前台灣的供電量是否可以穩定的撐起賴清德總統所說的AI之道"},{"start":7228.917,"end":7249.497,"text":"我們很有信心我們可以來供應你覺得非常有信心一定能達成?是,我們有信心你要據時以達,要務實地來達欸我很務實,我們有信心多久可以達成?多久可以達?是您個人有信心還是整體經濟部大家有信心?我們現在每年的供電就按照我們的規劃在落實當中所以這是您個人有信心還是整個經濟部有計畫的?"},{"start":7250.658,"end":7274.794,"text":"我相信我們同仁都有信心能夠來達成最後部長我跟您提光有信心是不夠的有信心當然最好光有信心是不夠的我就要從務實面再去看待我們在台灣現在的整個能源政策整個缺電的問題如果不面對問題尤其像您今天答詢的態度不知道問題不面對問題不覺得問題是問題這些事情永遠都沒有辦法解決的我不是這樣的態度我想我們會有信心來處理謝謝委員好"},{"start":7282.301,"end":7292.063,"text":"本席再次宣布我們在第10位林怡瑾委員這個質詢完畢之後我們就會休息5分鐘那接下來我們請郭玉琴委員謝謝主席有請經濟部林次長還有我們的核安會陳主委是我們請主委跟次長謝謝"},{"start":7310.216,"end":7337.653,"text":"兩位早安我想這個臺灣在使用核電其實碰到最大的一個困境應該是地震地震頻傳然後再來就是核廢料處理的一個問題我想這應該是目前碰到最大的一個狀況那我再次想請教一下這個我們的這個次長的部分其實我的孩子其實都知道有時候停電有時候跳電它並不是缺電的問題"},{"start":7338.914,"end":7341.259,"text":"他其實還有很多外部跟內部的一些問題"},{"start":7342.867,"end":7368.482,"text":"並不是因為台灣缺電是跳電不一定是缺電是好那我想呢現行的一個法規喔其實核電廠要延役其實必須要經過很嚴密的一個計劃啦吼那包含現在我們所知道的如果要延役必須要這個執照借其滿之前就是5到15年中間就要提出這樣子的一個申請那目前我們知道其實在國內我們的不管是核一廠"},{"start":7369.102,"end":7393.999,"text":"或是我們的核二廠在核一廠的部分其實我們重要的一些設備已經慢慢都移除了所以重啟幾乎是沒有可能演繹更不用說了那在這個核二廠的部分其實核廢料的問題還是依舊存在那就算有些某些我們的這個立委有一些執念就是說還要想要再做重啟的部分其實是不是也無法運轉核二的部分"},{"start":7395.86,"end":7411.998,"text":"我想這個法規面已經很明確的規範住他是不可能再重啟好那另外在核三的部分在這個一號機組是今年的七月底然後再來二號機組是在明年的五月中他們就確定要除役了"},{"start":7413.058,"end":7438.878,"text":"當然這個部分其實還是會有人會想要就是在做一些不管是中間的一些全世界的一個創舉想要再利用一些比方說像修法這樣子的一個部分要希望這個核三要繼續的工作要繼續的這個研議這個部分我想要問的就是核一剛剛已經講了他不會再有重建"},{"start":7440.093,"end":7453.947,"text":"的問題和二目前其實就算要再重啟其實還要整體的再重新再評估這個評估大概要多久還有包含我剛剛問的核三如果真的要研議的話會面臨到什麼樣的法律跟安全上的問題"},{"start":7455.345,"end":7470.641,"text":"我想這個法規面上我們有很完備的這個相關的研議的法規的規定那目前核三廠不管是一號機或二號機都已經過了研議的一個這個這個申請的時間那依照法規規範他是不可能再進行所謂研議的工作"},{"start":7471.181,"end":7473.804,"text":"如果沒有研議,如果沒辦法重啟,那未來我們台灣的用電會不會受到影響?我想大部分的人應該都會把焦點放在這一塊,因為這是跟他們切身有關係的。"},{"start":7490.86,"end":7518.835,"text":"是,那我們經濟部就是要做到這樣的一個穩定供電的狀況那我們會去預估詳細的需求去做好供給的一個這個提供那我剛剛提到我們已經就這個核三廠的一個一號機或二號機他們要停止運轉的所需要的供電都做好準備那包括我們的一個這個天然氣的電廠包括我們的再生能源太陽光電或者是離岸風電都已經會在今年或明年來做成長增加"},{"start":7519.375,"end":7535.408,"text":"已經有做過一個比較基礎的一個數據上的一個評估嗎?是 是 我們有很詳細的一個評估跟規劃所以目前就算我們的核三其實我們也不會有所謂的這個延役的這個問題那就算不延役台灣其實沒有缺電的問題可以這樣說嗎?這個是我們努力在做到的一個事情"},{"start":7536.496,"end":7556.545,"text":"好那接下來我想要問的就是所謂的核融合技術方面的研究了因為其實我們有提到所謂的這個劇變的那個研究其實分兩個不同的部分包含其實另外一個趨勢其中的一個趨勢是這個磁局線融合那另外一個是慣性局線融合那我們台灣其實是"},{"start":7557.185,"end":7559.046,"text":"這個部分抱歉我沒有很深入的了解我可不可以請台電來回答一下"},{"start":7582.91,"end":7594.966,"text":"主要是因為它經費的問題啦因為這個大概一個跨國最早這個計畫沒錯30年前發起的那當時大概只有7個國家現在我記得已經擴充到17個國家所以這個是比較主流的一個計畫嘛對不對目前來講是國際比較主流的"},{"start":7597.85,"end":7622.763,"text":"但是這個慣性局限融合的部分其實美國在2022年的年底它的Q值已經首次大於1也就是說它在這個部分它是提前先達標了那為什麼我們還是比較堅持在所謂的這個次局限融合這個部分我們比較聚焦在這個基本上前面那一個有關於所謂的所謂的托克馬克那個機型來講現在是國際的主流"},{"start":7625.684,"end":7644.963,"text":"那底下那個是勞倫斯利物末在加州的舊金山的一個國家實驗室那這個實驗室因為可是他達到所謂的淨值的部分大概我記得大概只有0.1秒左右所以他還未來如果在發電上還有發電效率的損失所以這一塊來講目前在國際上"},{"start":7645.964,"end":7647.025,"text":"目前來講就我知道大概國研院這裡會有一個計畫在走"},{"start":7664.233,"end":7680.424,"text":"什麼樣的計劃在走?這個部分其實是一個國科會補助的一個整合型計劃有五個子計劃兩年一起總共有四年它其實算是一個基礎研究"},{"start":7681.324,"end":7700.484,"text":"那麼我們一年投入3500萬那兩年一起那麼後面還有第二期是那這個其實跟國際的那個ITER法國的團隊跨國的團隊其實是非常前沿然後我想我們這個只是一個"},{"start":7701.505,"end":7711.786,"text":"研究用基礎研究的我們離實際運作即便國際上前沿的團隊離實際商轉運作都還有很大的一段距離"},{"start":7714.217,"end":7739.507,"text":"接下來我要問一下就是近年來其實關於所謂的核融合的這個技術其實我們都一直朝這個方面去努力那2024年是不是有可能這個核融合他也有可能目前是沒有辦法達到的對不對但是我們從新聞報導當中其實發現了有一間比較特殊的公司在這裡我想要提出來我想這個部分"},{"start":7740.027,"end":7763.176,"text":"我不曉得就是我們這個主委這邊有沒有概括性的指導就是說他們好像也不是做這兩塊剛剛我們介紹過的這個核融合的這兩個不同的研究方向可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合而且還要把它所謂的商業化那這個部分"},{"start":7764.036,"end":7772.842,"text":"我們有沒有去觀察或者我們有沒有去關切到底這間公司他所說的這個核融核的技巧核融核的這個技術是真的如他所說的是這樣嗎"},{"start":7774.176,"end":7801.466,"text":"我想這個部分我大概有一些了解那麼我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過那麼他其實是前國科委主委那麼這個部分其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下那麼我的理解是這個技術門檻很高那麼如果他有一個很突破性那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對"},{"start":7803.426,"end":7825.918,"text":"我想後續還可以再觀察一下因為其實我們也很擔心他的宣傳其實有點擴大了就是說他講說他的Q值可以穩定大於1而且長達數小時但他剛剛不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的一個趨勢所以這個部分我想可能還是要懇切的觀察因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資"},{"start":7827.139,"end":7827.799,"text":"接下來我們請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":7860.515,"end":7864.764,"text":"謝謝主席我請核安會主委及經濟部次長好主委跟次長"},{"start":7868.852,"end":7873.233,"text":"我首先先請教主委因為大家都很關心的核一廠的乾除那終於呢在卡關了11年之後在這個月5月10號那我們核一廠的乾除水土保持計畫終於獲得了新北市政府審查的核定那接下來大家就關心啦核定之後到啟用中間目前我們還需要進行哪些工作"},{"start":7898.22,"end":7900.307,"text":"這個部分可以請台電他講的比較好來可以請台電"},{"start":7904.438,"end":7931.418,"text":"目前來講大概新北市只要它禁流廢水合可以後大概我們下個月下個月就會進行所謂邊坡的一個補強的一個工作大概就那預定我們大概三個月可以完成完成以後大概有所謂的冷測試跟熱測試都要做所以整個的測試完成以後然後還要送最後的核安會的安全審查這一塊都要做大概到明年去了"},{"start":7931.798,"end":7945.844,"text":"最後還要送到我們核安會來做安全審查嘛那因為核一廠在新北雙北也是生活圈那本會呢我們委員會其實也有新北市的立委我是台北市的立委所以安全是非常的重要所以以剛剛這樣來估算我們這個水土保持改善的工程要先進行你之後要做熱測試然後要安全測試可能好幾種項目那我們是不是還有要邀請國際的廠商來協助進行計轉"},{"start":7960.802,"end":7972.148,"text":"有,這一塊來講我們有一個所謂的請美國電力研究院的專家在整個我們包括我們測試的過程裡面他做第三方的這個查驗已經開始在洽談了對,已經在洽談了所以我們整個預計這個時間有沒有一個初估的時程"},{"start":7979.392,"end":7999.135,"text":"預計大概我們希望在明年3月之前能夠送給核安會審查那明年底大概希望把核一廠裡面反應爐裡面的燃料能夠移到所謂的乾除設施來因為卡關了11年我們終於有一個進展但是安全還是最高的原則"},{"start":7999.615,"end":8027.874,"text":"所以請務必要秉持我們的專業來進行安全的把關再來一個問題就是干式儲存廠它也是階段性的我們的最終核廢料的最終儲置廠剛剛前面葉元之委員也問過了目前看不出選址有沒有一個地點當然因為選址它涉及到的還有民意跟社會的共識但是核廢料的最終儲置廠我們有沒有持續的在進行評估"},{"start":8029.373,"end":8050.792,"text":"目前來講大概先跟委員報告就是說荷蘭料的最終處置其實不是光台灣遇到這個問題是就是其實沒有一個縣市願意把這個設施呢志願說我在這裡所以全世界目前來講確定的大概只有兩個到三個國家是芬蘭瑞典法國那"},{"start":8052.059,"end":8075.323,"text":"另外截至到今天為止沒有一個地方正式在運轉所以全球大概都會遇到這個問題所以在這部分來講我們台電公司目前對外在做大概就是要加強整個國際合作包括參與芬蘭的私運轉計畫那後面要同時進行的大概就是所謂社會溝通的這一塊也包括立法"},{"start":8075.723,"end":8083.545,"text":"因為我們現在必須要有一個法源的依據這也是外面公民團體跟台電公司還有經濟部目前在努力的工作我為什麼問這個問題我請次長來回答因為呢這牽涉到我們能源的政策有一句話說沒有辦法解決核廢料沒有資格談核電這句話是誰說你們知道嗎我們新北市的侯友宜市長"},{"start":8098.149,"end":8101.552,"text":"也就是說社會上還有不少的人對核能的安全是有很大的疑慮因為核廢料如剛剛台電所回答最終處置場我們目前不是只有台灣很多大部分國家都找不到解決的方式所以請你們務必還是要秉持專業持續來評估我們核廢料最終處置場是 這個我們一定秉持最專業的方式來做是 然後我要請教次長"},{"start":8120.731,"end":8130.899,"text":"你有沒有看到一個新聞是5月中的時候美國宣布對俄羅斯有一項制裁就是要禁止進口濃縮鈾這是一個核燃料你有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":8132.448,"end":8134.589,"text":"跟委員很坦誠說我沒看過這個新聞好那這個你要再去了解那美國為什麼提出這項制裁呢因為他們擔心說跟俄羅斯進口又會成為這個俄羅斯進攻烏克蘭做軍事攻擊的這個資金所以基於國安的考量美國下了這個進口令"},{"start":8152.758,"end":8156.101,"text":"美國過去是高度的仰賴俄羅斯進口鈾比例高達了24%所以他們也開始在要做進口替代加強對美國本土鈾燃料生產的投資那包括英國的智庫皇家聯合軍事研究所也都指出美國現在對俄羅斯進行這個進口鈾的制裁那很可能也會變成中國來擴大他鈾出口的"},{"start":8177.641,"end":8203.998,"text":"因為今天的報告當中我們有討論到小型核電廠過去小型核電廠所使用的濃縮鈾過去只有一家俄羅斯的國營企業有生產所以我看到美國這個資訊我就相當的關注那我想未來我們在評估當中你們要非常的清楚了解到能源政策除了能源以外因為你牽涉到這個燃料的國際供應鏈它勢必也要去考量國際的局勢"},{"start":8206.072,"end":8221.54,"text":"那國際局勢的變動他回頭過來有可能影響到我們燃料供應的穩定性所以國安安全絕對也是你們要衡量其中之一所以請次長去進行了解是好我們會最後呢我要這個請教的是我們有一個RE100"},{"start":8223.201,"end":8235.688,"text":"是我們這個企業界來實行一個承諾希望能夠達到百分之百的再生能源的使用那台灣我們有很多廠商都有加入包括有台積電、宏基、聯電等等的那這一個RE100次長他的目前訂定的時間希望什麼時候可以達成這個目標"},{"start":8244.343,"end":8255.198,"text":"如果我沒有記錯應該2030年是 那在再生RA100裡面它的再生能源的定義有沒有包括核電我想目前沒有"},{"start":8256.587,"end":8260.308,"text":"目前沒有嘛所以說對我們現在台灣尤其是台積電大家很關注因為我們台灣這些廠商現在已經國際市場當中非常關鍵重要的角色所以他們會有很多國際的夥伴所以他們跟這些國際夥伴在交易的時候他們就牽涉到"},{"start":8274.813,"end":8276.675,"text":"的這些大廠的國際承諾所以如果他沒有辦法打到的話可能會影響到他的訂單所以我們這些台灣的廠商有沒有向經濟部提出需求讓他們能夠來去提高購買他的再生能源"},{"start":8290.21,"end":8303.737,"text":"這些國內的科技業者不僅是科技業者很多的傳統產業廠商都希望經濟部能擴大再生能源的開發跟供應我想這個部分是必然的確定是這樣子的那我們怎麼提供協助呢因為他的時間是2030最終是2040年要達到100%的目標所以他不需要逐年來提升他購買再生能源嗎目前我們怎麼協助台灣的本土廠商"},{"start":8316.283,"end":8341.768,"text":"是我想我們就是這個依照我們現在所規劃的把最成熟的這個光電還有這個離岸風電做最大的開發那另外我們也積極的納入像地熱跟生資能作為現在比較潛力大的一個再生能源的供應的來源那希望說盡最大能力來從開源端就是供應端來提供另外這個綠電的那個這個交易我們也建立"},{"start":8342.208,"end":8362.013,"text":"一個比較完整的機制來提供給這些相關所需要的企業來購買他所需要的力電是經濟部你們管能源你們很重要你們也管產業所以務必要協助我們臺灣的廠商能夠進入國際市場要持續來提升供應他們再生能源的需求所以要繼續努力好不好好我們會努力好謝謝"},{"start":8367.045,"end":8375.047,"text":"好 謝謝兩位接下來我們請01級委員在我們01級委員這個質詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘謝謝來謝謝主席有請河安會陳竹偉還有經濟部林次長好我們請竹偉跟次長謝謝"},{"start":8389.833,"end":8416.153,"text":"林委員好委員好大家好我想依照環境基本法第二三條的精神政府應訂定計畫逐步達成非核家園的目標除了本與環境保護的精神我們本來就應該要逐步降低對核能發電的使用最後核電歸零而在面對台灣現在核電廠已經實質除役或即將除役的情形本席認為"},{"start":8417.374,"end":8419.557,"text":"創意現有核電廠延役繼續發電我覺得不但短視近利而且他們忽略了各種龐大而且深不可測的成本怎麼說齁"},{"start":8432.45,"end":8451.303,"text":"指出有不少支持台灣現在不應該放棄核電的人士常常用國際的標準說核電是乾淨的能源作為論述的資料可是本席認為核能發電完全無法符合綠電的概念所以我認為核電"},{"start":8452.924,"end":8453.084,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":8479.241,"end":8501.655,"text":"最重要的還是核廢污染是對後代的負面影響這個影響甚大所以用盡所謂的手段要要求重啟核電就會製造更多的核廢料更多的不正義那我想要擁核卻又忽視核廢料在儲存上有許多的難處像是選址的困難像是"},{"start":8504.556,"end":8511.097,"text":"現有的燃料池滿載以及長期煮放廠規劃的時程還很長等等的問題這就好比說你生了一個孩子你只想玩他可是又不想生養他不處理他的這個吃喝拉撒等等那這就是很顯然的你忽視了核廢料的處置的人就好像真的很不負責任"},{"start":8531.667,"end":8557.947,"text":"的這種概念好那如果說除役的進程確定那核廢料的數量就會固定不變那我們或許就可以比較具體的來規劃核廢料處置設置的計畫可是一旦核電廠延役那核廢料就會隨之增加那不僅增加核廢料處置計畫的不確定性也降低人民對政府處置這個核廢料信心"},{"start":8559.287,"end":8581.681,"text":"當然也恐怕會增加跟社會溝通的困難所以核安會的業務當然包含核廢料的監管那延役顯然會導致核廢料問題更欠缺的社會共識並且更難解決所以要請教主委跟次長你們是否同意核電廠延役確實將造成更難解決的核廢料問題"},{"start":8585.746,"end":8591.496,"text":"陳主委員講的那個研議當然這個核廢料會逐漸增加然後那麼這個會增加這個將來處理的複雜跟難度"},{"start":8597.97,"end":8616.821,"text":"所以次長也同意我想生產就一定產生廢料嘛那廢料儲存現在目前是一個很複雜的問題我同意好那接下來想要討論說那之所以有人要擁核核電廠延役當然他們理由是說有助穩定電價可是這種觀點我覺得他就忽略了"},{"start":8618.042,"end":8635.039,"text":"嚴疫過程中他為了確保他的機組能運作安全跟效率所以他需要進行機組更新的這個成本的問題這個都沒有想過那除了機組更新的成本核安的措施也是一個成本之一"},{"start":8635.78,"end":8640.125,"text":"尤其在台灣這個所謂的被複合式的災害威脅的這個島嶼我們有台風我們有地震這種天災所以安全性的問題真的是不容忽視所以簡言之"},{"start":8651.258,"end":8671.055,"text":"基礎的更新跟安全的維護兩者的基金的投入應該會相當的可觀這個不能單看說電價相對低的這個觀點來切入而已所以關於基礎的更新跟維護的成本這個部分核安會跟經濟部是否有審慎的這個評估過那確切會是大約什麼樣的數字"},{"start":8678.387,"end":8681.209,"text":"我可不可以請我們台電這邊來回應一下這部分牽扯到設備的更新還有安全的這一塊所以目前來講這個數字跟委員講的沒有錯的確是龐大所以一個非常龐大的數字所以還沒有辦法估出這麼龐大的數字會大約多少目前來講是還沒有估出來"},{"start":8704.11,"end":8721.86,"text":"我想沒有人希望核災發生啦所以我現在想就叫主委就是說在核子事故緊急應變計畫的疏散規劃裡頭我們是以8公里內在籍人數3萬人為考量而不是考量非在籍實居的這種工作人口十幾萬人"},{"start":8722.961,"end":8749.989,"text":"那這個是否會低估他的疏散的時間以及救護跟安置的需求我們用核三廠和恆春的那個聯外道路只有台26線來看遇到春假或寒暑假或大型的活動他這近幾年都幾乎有差不多超過26萬人出入墾丁的這種台灣季如果遇到這樣的情形你會有更進一步或更"},{"start":8751.209,"end":8778.876,"text":"規劃更細緻的這個所謂的應變緊急的應變計畫嗎?主委這個緊急應變計畫是在電廠8公里之內我們叫EPZROM就是緊急應變的區域那當然對於流動的人口我們是沒有辦法去及時來掌握因為特別是觀光客就像委員提到的所以這一部分當然"},{"start":8779.918,"end":8803.978,"text":"有不確定性所以我覺得你們在規劃中其實還要再加入這些對 因為你說像核三廠所在地的這個恆春它的這個觀光客的數量確實是龐大的特別遇到一些特別的這個假日所以如果說在特別的假日然後發生了任何的核災的問題那你們這個應變計畫就要更周圍一點"},{"start":8806.62,"end":8810.701,"text":"另外我想依據河山場這個地震危害跟篩選報告河山場東側緊鄰河村的這個活動斷層那西側外海又有所謂的逆沖斷層那場內的這個河島區底下的這個淺層地質又發現有簡列跟被寫的地層變形那地表的加速度可達1.384G"},{"start":8832.285,"end":8841.796,"text":"我想不僅是三座核電廠最高也超過核三廠可以安全停機的耐震程度的0.72G所以本席認為當初就已經缺乏詳細的資料來評估而不當的選址那陸續研究出來這些地址的事證更是"},{"start":8852.367,"end":8852.467,"text":"主委"},{"start":8870.273,"end":8890.925,"text":"這個部分其實我們最近做那個Shake Level 3那麼報告正在台電那麼我們會來檢視那後續如果有必要會再做進一步的補強那麼但是在更低的這個這個加速度的時候其實我們會有安全自動"},{"start":8892.166,"end":8919.284,"text":"緊急關閉的一個裝置好我想最後本席要重申立場我堅決反對老舊核電廠和延役也反對任何為延役或重啟做開後門的這個修法我想核能涉及專業的評估絕非政治的操作不要讓今天的決定成為明天的困境以上謝謝謝謝主委謝謝次長謝謝主席"},{"start":8921.369,"end":8922.774,"text":"謝謝,那我們現在就先休息五分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":9231.874,"end":9231.894,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":9252.409,"end":9280.636,"text":"首先我先請教次長就是說其實因為其實大家今天都一直不停的在問就是AI因為這也是賴總統的一個政見就是說我們要發展AI可是因為從很多的報告也都在講說AI的用量是非常非常的高那今天有非常多的委員也都非常關心說我們真的有去準備好嗎因為企業要發展經濟要發展電就要準備好那我次長剛剛其實也說了我們都有在準備那我可不可以請次長再做一些詳細的說明我們怎麼做這些準備跟一些預估謝謝"},{"start":9282.237,"end":9300.516,"text":"我剛剛提到我們每年都會做未來用電的需求預估我們現在已經做到2030年每一年的用電需求我們除了用GDP的成長來做預估之外我們最近也把半保體的一個發展跟AI的發展把它加進去也就是說我們除了GDP的成長之外"},{"start":9300.936,"end":9327.914,"text":"也把半導體這個用電可能會比較這個發展的快然後AI的部分都把它加進去在我們估計每年用電需求的一個這個估計的一個這個參數裡面這部分我剛剛前面都已經有聽到那講說這個電源的規劃是什麼因為大家都很擔心嘛我們你算的好像都有算那這個電源是怎麼樣做分配的是不是有需要用到核能這件事情是不是可以請如果我們現在做的這些規劃可不可以再做一些說明"},{"start":9328.875,"end":9350.452,"text":"我們這個需求推估出來之後我們就去規劃我們的一個供電的狀況那每年的供電我們發現說需要去建新的電力的時候目前為止我們都是擴大綠能的一個投入以及這個燃氣電廠的一個投入那另外一部分就是把燃煤的部分能夠逐漸的降下來我想目前的一個電力的一個發展的一個配比是這樣子"},{"start":9351.152,"end":9368.386,"text":"但是為了淨零的一個發展事實上我們在這個這個氫能的發展目前投入了一些示範的一個運行的一個這樣的一個實驗在進行中那另外一個部分就是說未來我們的火力電廠要碳中和需要用到CCUS的這個部分我們就在相關的一個這個以國營事業的這個"},{"start":9374.431,"end":9399.691,"text":"市長我想直接這樣問好了就是說其實我們其實我也從網路上面是有看到臺電是有做一些相關的規劃然後看起來在高峰期好像也都能夠持續的供電那我們也有一個長期電源開發的規劃那我就想問一下就是說我當然我也昨天也看到你們發了一個最新的新聞就是說新增的燃氣的氣阻扣阻除液的激阻後進增加到2030年會增加910"},{"start":9401.442,"end":9401.462,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":9417.917,"end":9431.253,"text":"委員這個是我們這邊正在做好所以我想再確認一下因為大家都非常關心這個缺電會影響經濟發展所以我們現在在2030年目前我們都已經把AI跟半導體的部分都已經放進去了"},{"start":9432.534,"end":9432.994,"text":"主委,您認同這樣的主張嗎?"},{"start":9454.994,"end":9466.832,"text":"我站在核安會的立場我不能夠對這個能源政策來做表態我想這個是不是留給經濟部來回答那不好意思 那我就直接問到細節好了"},{"start":9470.322,"end":9496.997,"text":"就是說我們在這個OL3我查到的資料是說他原本是說在他說在這15年事實上他供期延宕前前後後花了18年那一個反應爐呢成本也從最初的30億暴增到111億的歐元所以整個成長了80億喔所以這好像似乎跟我們從網路上面新聞得到的數字是有點落差的那再來就是說"},{"start":9498.158,"end":9523.11,"text":"也有去講述這個SMR的小型模組反應爐就美國設計的這個SMR的反應爐呢是宣布在第一座即將在2015年上線但是到現在此時此刻都還沒有上線已經拖延到2030年成本也大幅的增加這個是根據而且在根據美國國家科學院刊發表期刊是說每增加他在SMR所每成產生的一定"},{"start":9524.451,"end":9533.303,"text":"一單位的電力就會產生更多的核廢料比原本的傳統反應爐高出30倍這部分我想跟主委確認我得到的資訊是正確的嗎?"},{"start":9535.25,"end":9562.221,"text":"應該是正確好 那接下來就繼續請教就是說既然看起來現在所謂的新技術好像是沒有辦法解決我們所謂的核廢料的這個問題那我們就回來看我們現在的核廢料的處理因為畢竟是一個最重要的事情就是說我們現在的核燃料其實已經是爆滿了因為早期我們在做這些評估的時候過於樂觀所以並沒有"},{"start":9563.101,"end":9565.964,"text":"從這張圖就可以非常清楚的知道說"},{"start":9574.514,"end":9596.531,"text":"我們現在不管是在燃料池的已經差不多了還甚至有一些像是核一廠還有724宿核二廠還有1248宿都是沒有辦法拿出來的那我也有看到新聞是說我們即將在核一的部分已經好像今年年底就可以啟動了對嗎但是我想問現在只是核一喔還有核二那核二的進度在哪裡"},{"start":9607.694,"end":9610.585,"text":"抱歉那個時間可以還給我齁因為我聽不到他在說什麼"},{"start":9614.8,"end":9638.567,"text":"目前在最終處置這一塊的確我們遇到了一些問題所以目前來講我們台電公司也是積極在所謂的希望能夠走所謂的中期儲存的這一塊對所以我們現在核二的進度呢現在是還沒有辦法找到最終處置的地方嗎還是還在申請中還是怎麼樣可以說明嗎核二的部分大概所謂的室外乾儲部分目前我們正在等法院的一個調解"},{"start":9639.407,"end":9654.081,"text":"對,跟新北市的調解對不對?對對對的調解那如果跟新北市調解完以後大概後面我們大概可能需要花到兩年到三年的時間二到三年的時間所以這個部分的話我們還需要二到三年來處理嘛對不對?好"},{"start":9655.542,"end":9678.276,"text":"我想就是說不管是中研院的研究也有講到或是世界在講這件事情都有講核能發電最大的主力其實是在放射性廢棄物的最終處置廠不管是從技術的角度或者是說安全性這件事情它其實都是一個我們要不要決定用核電最艱難的決定"},{"start":9680.277,"end":9694.571,"text":"所以呢我想就是說因為畢竟我們從這上面的所有的資料可以看到核一場核二場都已經戒期核三場也都已經超過申請延役的期限現在也沒有辦法解決最終的這個處置場的這個問題"},{"start":9697.994,"end":9713.229,"text":"其實中研院的建議書也有提供到我們還有其他的能源就像剛剛講的再生能源、減碳的選擇、除能設備這其實都是可以解決我們企業需要用電的問題所以我希望主委這邊一定要來努力以專業的角度"},{"start":9716.632,"end":9718.652,"text":"這是關於所有人民的安全 謝謝"},{"start":9750.682,"end":9751.403,"text":"范芸委員"},{"start":9771.115,"end":9784.588,"text":"謝謝兩位可不可以請問一下我們近五年就是核能佔比跟再生能源的發電量佔比那現在的情況如何那預計五年後的狀況如何這個應該是不是請我們經濟次長回答林次長"},{"start":9790.545,"end":9811.856,"text":"報告我們去年核能的發電佔比大概是6.3%那這個再生能源是9.5%那我們預估在今年再生能源應該可以到13%左右對所以已經超過核能佔比嗎是是是那五年後你們的預估是甚麼五年後我們希望2030年的時候大概再生能源可以達到30%左右對"},{"start":9814.977,"end":9840.717,"text":"核能大概就是我們都除以了嘛對核能就是零那會有缺電的問題嗎因為今天早上我們的預設好像是我們要發展AI就會缺電這個你們當你們沒有評估過嗎剛剛那個評估裡面有沒有評估到AI我想我很具體明確的回答說事實上我們對未來的用電需求我們有長達5到10年的推估然後根據這個推估我們把所有的供電能量都準備好"},{"start":9841.797,"end":9863.551,"text":"實際上剛剛提到這個核能山廠的一號機會二號機會除以早在這個三四年前我們就在推估這樣的情形那就把這個要準備的這個基礎都準備好那會上來基礎包括我們的燃氣的基礎包括我們的再生能源太陽光電跟離岸風電都會上來所以你們其實都評估在裡面嗎是是是好那再來我應該這個是要請問是我們核安會的主委嗎陳主委"},{"start":9869.575,"end":9885.505,"text":"剛剛我們也談到新型核能那我所看到的研究就是目前還是有很大的技術瓶頸要到2050年才有可能商轉那這個是這樣子嗎?您同意這個說法嗎?同意所以2050年離現在還多久?"},{"start":9890.347,"end":9910.322,"text":"還有27年嘛如果技術瓶頸不突破的話2050年還有商轉嘛就算它有商轉發電成本是個大問題那我看到的研究報告這個是PNAS就是美國國家科學院院刊是美國前核能管制委員會主委參與的研究團隊他們的報告說比傳統核電廠還可能產生高達30倍的核廢料"},{"start":9918.548,"end":9932.628,"text":"發電成本比再生能源高出3至5倍就算安全問題有比較好核廢料是30倍再生能源成本3到5倍這個我們主委有看過這個報告嗎"},{"start":9934.136,"end":9960.569,"text":"是的,我也幫你看看 是不是這樣子是的,因為主要是這樣子那個prototype新型的、原型的開發需要投入更多的經費是,開發這個投出更多的經費對,它有研發的性質所以即便現在在那個NewScale的公司我在報告裡面有說明那麼它也因為不符合商業利益所以它終止"},{"start":9961.539,"end":9985.961,"text":"是不符合商業利益所以我看到這個報告裏面發電成本的估計是能源公司估計的SMR的成本是每兆瓦105到135美元風力發電的成本是每兆瓦25到32美元然後太陽能電的成本是每兆瓦32到37美元這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":9987.569,"end":10005.996,"text":"所以是不是主委都要能告訴大家至少在2050年前就目前技術不突破的情況下核廢料是30倍發電成本比再生能源高3到5倍所以我想我們這是專業問題剛講的都是尊重專業專業的問題專業給答案我們才能夠做整體的安全評估"},{"start":10013.799,"end":10033.545,"text":"當然除了安全評估之外我想很多人講過很多次應該是三個前提第一個一個最基本的這討論都是要尊重專業不是我們非專業的人做的評估專業的評估第二個這是前提然後第一個就是核安的問題剛剛有很多人講到地震的部分"},{"start":10034.465,"end":10051.75,"text":"就是我也想再追問一下如果真的立法院也許萬一用多數的表決要演繹的話那是不是核安的部分要重新評估因為過去的報告有把地震帶這些東西都評估進去嗎?"},{"start":10053.902,"end":10055.182,"text":"還有一個就是也是剛剛好幾位委員講到的"},{"start":10083.03,"end":10095.315,"text":"就是目前台灣的核廢料我們涉及一個很大的問題這部分是不是先請核安會主委也許更專業有多少國家有走到最終處置場"},{"start":10097.352,"end":10114.475,"text":"目前我理解就芬蘭現在在試營運那試營運那他的成本有算到裡面嗎沒有成本我也不知道那以芬蘭的條件你覺得台灣找得到低階跟高階的最終處置場嗎這個有點困難有點困難低階根據法規是不是要在地公投"},{"start":10123.786,"end":10128.47,"text":"我剛剛聽到你們的討論曾經評估過花蓮跟金門你們評估在地公投會通過嗎?低階不是那低階曾經評估過哪裡?那個低階曾經在經濟部曾經就提出兩個候選場子就是在台東跟在金門"},{"start":10148.867,"end":10176.321,"text":"台東跟金門那你們評估到目前為止因為地方政府沒有辦理公投地方政府不願意辦公投沒有人要辦公投那你們評估就算他們辦公投公投會通過嗎沒有公投會不會過是要看民意那地方政府也不願意辦公投那高階的部分目前以我的了解連法規都沒有如果法規公投在地公投也是基本的民主尊重吧"},{"start":10177.865,"end":10193.492,"text":"對,的確目前來講是沒有法規依據那你們覺得找得到就是說最終處置廠像芬蘭現在正在實驗跟努力中的嗎?芬蘭我們都知道他那個地方非常的大北邊就是很大的森林綠地"},{"start":10194.272,"end":10211.086,"text":"我們在2017年的時候的確已經確定就是說台灣是有所謂的花崗岩的這個母岩可以適合做最重的處置那請問是在哪個縣市有在2017的時候大概我們確定大概就是曾經有在金門跟花蓮金門跟花蓮高街那你們有請問過金門民選立委跟花蓮民選立委的意見嗎所以當時我們就是"},{"start":10219.293,"end":10243.772,"text":"這部分在社會的溝通跟地方的政府的這個部分的確遇到困難金門縣政府會花蓮縣政府會支持嗎目前來講是不會目前是不會所以我們討論這個部分剛剛主委跟經濟部次長為什麼都沒有把這些條件告訴大家好像這都不需要處理的問題以我看到的資料"},{"start":10245.899,"end":10260.239,"text":"連這個所謂的最終處置場連法國、日本、英國、俄羅斯、中國都還在尋求選址中國我們都知道不是個民主國家所以我想這是一個蠻大的這個部分"},{"start":10260.88,"end":10276.588,"text":"雖然不是安全問題也是一個民主國家基本的倫理問題垃圾場都沒有人想要的有0幣的問題更何況是連低階都還在對不起原住民跟蘭嶼人找不到最終處置場那更何況高階"},{"start":10278.449,"end":10294.561,"text":"那依照這兩個所以請我們的官員講清楚歐盟的分類法是有條件納入核能作為氣候減緩跟調適的項目所謂乾淨能源跟綠色能源是Do not significant harm"},{"start":10295.629,"end":10319.539,"text":"沒有不要有傷害有意義的傷害臺灣現階段的核電廠根本不符合乾淨或綠色能源因為我們沒有辦法處理中等低跟極低放射性廢棄物的最終處置設施那更何況沒有設施就不會有具體且具細節步驟的計劃所以我們並沒有那個不造成重大傷害的條件"},{"start":10321.42,"end":10334.975,"text":"所以就算你們延役了這兩個問題不解決也不是企業可以用的綠色能源跟乾淨能源這個主委同不同意我講的何安慧主委同意同意那可不可以說清楚說大聲一點"},{"start":10336.252,"end":10350.517,"text":"同意你們不說清楚是我們這個委員自己來做研究幫你說清楚不大對吧那主委可不可以請你告訴我們國安會主委好嗎橫向溝通一下他跟你比起來他是核能專家嗎"},{"start":10353.351,"end":10357.513,"text":"國安會主委有上新聞國發會主委一時不太開心國發會主委不是能源專家吧應該不是那您是專業的是不是橫向跟他講一下不要誤解了歐盟的這個相關的分類好嗎謝謝"},{"start":10380.407,"end":10387.452,"text":"好謝謝接下來王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員羅廷偉委員好謝謝主席請邀請我們陳主委還有經濟部林次長好我們請主委跟次長"},{"start":10410.624,"end":10427.31,"text":"主委,市長,謝謝。我想大家都很關心核能,那剛剛也有在討論到所謂的核廢料的處置,但我還是要講另外一層面的,我們現階段就兩位能夠知道,國人現在十大的癌症大概是哪幾個癌嗎?"},{"start":10431.36,"end":10455.015,"text":"大概就好沒關係這沒有要考試我想可能胃癌大腸癌肺腺癌這些可能都是我們現在是大前三名肺癌大家都認同那很多人都知道平均每兩個人就有一個人是肺癌那發現的時候呢幾乎都是晚期尤其是肺腺癌那我自己也有親友有得過肺腺癌"},{"start":10455.695,"end":10480.114,"text":"我想近年來抽菸的人口不斷地下降但是肺癌的罹患並沒有去降低而多數也都有發現這個有相關的數據在支撐肺癌的患者有些是不抽菸的那我們就很納悶沒有抽菸也有基因的問題沒有基因的問題"},{"start":10481.998,"end":10485.301,"text":"欸 也有可能是有所謂的空氣汙染的問題"},{"start":10486.334,"end":10512.136,"text":"所以我們更希望臺中在面對這個火力全開的中火我們更想要探討一下是不是有相關的配套方式能夠去舒緩現階段臺中的困境中部無限式的困境我們空氣污染的一個困境我想根據經濟部2021年結算的資料臺灣電力83%來自於火力發電其中燃料以天然氣燃煤為主"},{"start":10513.457,"end":10519.724,"text":"藍媒佔火力發電2021年53%藍氣供電比45%換算下來臺灣發電約37%依賴天然氣臺灣的天然氣主要來源國是卡達印尼馬來西亞臺灣是海島型國家如果遇到了颱風驚襲導致傳奇的沿墮甚至是最近中國大陸開始進行的軍演"},{"start":10536.28,"end":10556.19,"text":"我們非常嚴厲的譴責我們不想要看到這樣的狀況一再發生當然作為民意代表我們只能譴責我們更呼籲國防部要捍衛中華民國但是我們想請問一下目前天然氣大概只有10到14天的安全存量未來假設遇到天然氣被封鎖怎麼辦目前有沒有準備備援的措施"},{"start":10559.546,"end":10584.105,"text":"我們現在是有定定安全存量那目前是11天但是未來我們還會再增加到14天是對就剛剛我講的10到14天是那這就是我們現在要增加安全存量那我們現在也在提升我們現在的一個這個接收站跟我們的一個除草對所以你打算把10到14天變成10到18天或者是10到20天你的目標對吧"},{"start":10585.938,"end":10597.629,"text":"當然是提高這個安全存量是一件事情另外一件事情就是我們必須去尋找綠色通道能夠在這個緊急危機的時候能夠有適當的部分來做相關的一個輸運所以是說綠能補上是嗎"},{"start":10601.853,"end":10626.63,"text":"如果以我們2050的一個淨零碳排的一個這個發展來看我們未來在2050的一個再生能源會佔比到60到70%確實是會來增加我們綠能的一個這個發展好那看起來就是沒有很具體的備援措施因為10到14天不管10到20天那它如果安全封鎖它如果天然氣的封鎖到將近20天我們還是無解所以我想這個部分"},{"start":10627.23,"end":10643.338,"text":"我想這絕對不是我第一次詢問也不是我這個立法委員發現很多的立委都在關心我想經濟部應該好好考量這個問題而淨零排放是我國最重要的一個政策目前惡霧戰爭的狀況導致天然氣供需失衡許多國家包括美英日加拿大等國"},{"start":10644.759,"end":10666.719,"text":"分分考慮重啟核電國際將綠能政策分為兩塊一個是再生能源搭配天然氣另一個是可再生能源搭配核電國際能源總署也指出會達成全球淨台淨零碳排未來20年核電的規模將擴大接近一倍以上的數據對吧你有掌握到這樣的數據嗎"},{"start":10668.803,"end":10696.474,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面有提到說未來的一個核電的占比在2030年到2050年整個發電占比大概是10%跟8%左右那委員的資訊我想我們會再做更進一步的一個掌握我想相關媒體的報導我們僅供參考但是教學相長我們希望就是台灣更好但是我想很多的前面的委員應該有問過有沒有重新評估台灣的能源政策的一個配比這是我們最重要的一個議題"},{"start":10697.594,"end":10715.883,"text":"但我沒有讓你現在馬上回答我好好地考量但國際對反核的態度突然的轉變喔可以從這個阿聯酋共識各國對核能的表態看得很清楚阿聯酋共識有提到加速零碳排及低碳排的一個技術包含再生能源核能碳減少"},{"start":10716.323,"end":10718.185,"text":"何安慧主委有聽出端倪嗎?是的"},{"start":10735.612,"end":10753.921,"text":"有嗎加速零碳排及低碳排的一個技術其中包含的就是核能另外芬蘭的氣候環境部長在這一次的會議中也有提到如果要讓地球增溫控制在1.5度C以內不提升核能的地位是做不到的您認同他這句話嗎"},{"start":10755.246,"end":10772.525,"text":"跟委員講那個我的報告裡面其實有詳述了這兩個區塊的一些論述那麼其實各個能源各個國家他都有自身的考量那麼這個部分我想是國家的能源政策他是一種選擇"},{"start":10774.727,"end":10789.457,"text":"我想每一個能源政策都有它的利與弊但是我們不要輕重於任何一個能源這應該是你可以認同的吧而是各個都有一些相關的部署雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子"},{"start":10790.498,"end":10807.51,"text":"那另外22個大國包括美日韓都簽署了2050年前增加核能到3倍請問主委我們台灣的政策目前還在非核債源嗎依照國際的局勢台灣現在如何非核淨零碳排又該如何完成主委經濟部長次長請問能夠回答嗎"},{"start":10814.099,"end":10815.441,"text":"提到說我們在未來2050的時候我們希望"},{"start":10829.279,"end":10831.26,"text":"就次長了解2025年的這個能源轉型有達到當時蔡英文所提出的目標嗎?"},{"start":10846.845,"end":10867.123,"text":"我們推估2022我們再生能源的發電佔比應該會達到15%以上那但是設置量設置量是會完成那我們可能會在2026年達到20%的這個發電量那當時他所設定的目標你還記得嗎我知道我們積極的努力希望能夠做到但是看起來積極的努力希望能夠做到但看起來就是還有一段距離嘛"},{"start":10868.803,"end":10882.888,"text":"我們沒有要攻擊沒有要批評我們就數據上來看嘛積極的努力盡量去達到那我問的問題就是目前就是沒有達到還有一段距離嘛對不對那我們可以再努力嘛所以"},{"start":10883.228,"end":10885.189,"text":"最近對岸有成立了一個山東石島灣核電廠你們有掌握嗎?好台電"},{"start":10912.793,"end":10941.796,"text":"他那個高溫氣冷室高溫氣冷室對吧我想和主委分享一下其實台灣早就有類似這樣的報告台灣在2016年率隊出國參加第20屆的太平洋盆地國際核能會議當中出國的報告清楚指出高溫氣冷室的反應爐燃料在失去冷卻劑後表面最高溫度可遠低於安全值安全限值的1620度C所以報告的結論就是基本上排除了爐心"},{"start":10942.176,"end":10942.316,"text":"主委．"},{"start":10962.887,"end":10972.762,"text":"這個部分我還要去了解一下我找機會來看一下這個報告這是我們先掌握相關資料我想會後如果有任何的興趣我們可以再一起相互討論謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":10977.674,"end":10993.042,"text":"好 謝謝兩位 謝謝羅委員接下來賴世寶委員 賴世寶委員 賴世寶委員 牛許廷委員 牛許廷委員 牛許廷委員鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 張家俊委員主席我想請主委好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":11010.826,"end":11015.187,"text":"陳主委要不要啟用核電是經濟部的責任那管理核電廠安全的是核安會的職責新內閣上任之後經濟部長郭志輝說核能是乾淨能源上任後一定會重新盤整國發會的主委今天"},{"start":11029.992,"end":11048.439,"text":"劉靜卿他也說不排斥重啟核能顯然我們現在整個經濟發展相關的部會都認同重啟核能先請教主委請問核安會有沒有收到指示對於核三甚至核二在研議做出砂盤推演呢沒有"},{"start":11050.351,"end":11071.726,"text":"沒有?完全沒有?那為什麼沒有做呢?核安會負責核能安全總不能到了事情發生了才開始做主委是不是能夠督促會內對核電延役的議題做出推演跟結論呢?那個跟張委員報告我剛才講沒有是說上面沒有交代我改變"},{"start":11076.989,"end":11091.725,"text":"這是我們會的工作所以這個部分沒有任何疑義是那所以呢本席在這裡要求你們就是說你們做的業務報告跟簡報不要每一次都是很空泛的內容是不是能夠"},{"start":11093.607,"end":11112.434,"text":"更仔細呢因為呢我記得等一下我來就是我記得那時候12年的時候2012年和安會有要求台電做出啟動同行審查peer review是否需要再做耐震補強要到報告出爐了才可以來評估嘛但是從2012年到現在多久了"},{"start":11120.817,"end":11123.638,"text":"十二年了十二年了請問核安會收到台電的這份報告了嗎現在那個台電還在進行國外同行的審查十二年了欸這個時間都可以讀兩個博士學位四個博士學位了台電竟然做不出一個報告做到核電廠都要退役光了我們社會能夠接受"},{"start":11144.308,"end":11145.17,"text":"一份報告這麼久嗎?和安會的主委你要為台電背書嗎?這一份報告12年你能夠接受嗎?"},{"start":11153.995,"end":11177.525,"text":"張委員報告齁那個這個審查的review齁其實是很嚴謹然後是是非常嚴謹做到這個核電廠全部都要退役了還做不出來那我在問主委安全是第一優先問題那我相信核安會也會審慎評估我想要請教主委喔很多歐美國家他們的核電廠年限都是50年60年請問"},{"start":11181.647,"end":11206.081,"text":"核安會主委你覺得我們現行的核電廠壽命是否可能延長我的理解所有的核電廠他的剛開始的執照運轉期限都是40年所以你是沒有辦法沒有辦法就是他必須經過這個研議的手續安全的檢查"},{"start":11207.543,"end":11227.713,"text":"所以你覺得說如果假設假設說包括 核四他其實沒有實際運轉過那一直都只有片面政府對外公佈的消息無法服眾和安會是不是能夠考慮開放核市場供媒體專家民意代表一般民眾實際參觀讓核四的狀況公開透明讓民意再度決定說核市場是否足夠安全"},{"start":11238.724,"end":11243.266,"text":"市長,如果假設讓核四提供專家媒體甚至民意代表去參觀然後公開透明讓大家去理解核四現在的狀態,市長同意嗎?"},{"start":11267.003,"end":11281.664,"text":"我們事實上過去都有安排或者是接受大家的一個這個來看那如果事實上要我們去做這樣的一個評估我想台電可以願意來做這個評估台電也OK嘛對不對所以這個我想競速是不是來安排"},{"start":11282.345,"end":11286.087,"text":"目前有關於核電廠延役的問題本席很清楚河安會跟台電主要的說法是認為核電廠內濕式的儲存槽已經不敷使用那乾式的儲存槽的興建又很多阻礙本席提一個見解你們三位專家都在這裡就是我們現行的核電廠純核廢料"},{"start":11307.608,"end":11312.787,"text":"有沒有可能在核四暫存呢?核四現在的儲存槽應該是空的吧?"},{"start":11316.12,"end":11338.085,"text":"目前來講委員這個建議其實會遇到三個問題第一個問題大概就是說我必須要管制單位同意第二個還要新北市政府同意第三個還要當地居民同意另外還有一個就是所有的安全分析呢因為當初在核四建廠的時候呢並沒有並沒有所謂去存核一核二的幹事的這個這個"},{"start":11339.005,"end":11343.549,"text":"那你們可不可以做相關的評估呢先做評估出來大家才一起來想辦法克服問題嘛因為電力的問題是影響我們國家經濟發展甚至我們國家人民生活品質非常重要的一環所以也希望今天三位這個主委也在次長也在還有副總也在是不是大家一起共同來努力解決這個問題謝謝"},{"start":11368.035,"end":11372.039,"text":"好 謝謝張委員接下來我們請陳培宇委員好謝謝主席那有請主委還有經濟部次長謝謝好我們請主委跟次長謝謝"},{"start":11388.212,"end":11411.728,"text":"陳委員好好主委早安次長早安我們就直接切入重點時間有限那主委我想要直接請教您核安會是三級獨立機構對吧好那所以你們最重要的工作就是要確保臺灣的核能輻射還有放射性物料的安全所以如果我說沒有核安就沒有核電延役這句話是否成立"},{"start":11412.435,"end":11441.192,"text":"完全正確好那我們要如何讓國人理解這個概念所謂的安全我們到底在意的最在意的是什麼就是要我們要把所有的程序走完合乎法令那麼我們按照所有的法規的規範去做整密的研析那麼我們核安會會在每一個階段來做完全的把關"},{"start":11442.807,"end":11469.267,"text":"好 這個把關的部分如果是交由核安會所以我想核安會會一再的為國人把關相關核安的安全對嗎好 我想這個部分國人對於核安會的期待非常非常的明顯非常非常的重要所以我們來看一下如果用這個角度往下來看呢關於目前核電的使用還有核電廠延役的問題我們一直認為不能只是如同很多在野黨委員所說的從單一國家的案例來看例如說"},{"start":11470.828,"end":11474.45,"text":"每一個國家的國土樣態人民組成產業發展狀態完全不一樣所以如果單獨只有從單一個國家來看我們可能會遇到什麼樣論辯上的風險可不可以請主委回答一下"},{"start":11485.424,"end":11508.141,"text":"我想每一個國家都有自己能源的考量那麼我們在報告裡面花了很多時間來論述這個整個世界各個國家的趨勢跟他的想法那麼能源政策我想還是由經濟部就統一就國家的未來的考量來做統一的說明跟決策"},{"start":11508.641,"end":11533.854,"text":"好 那我們等一下會請次長回答可是我們來看一下在2023世界核能產業現況報告裡面就說全球的核電發電量出現10年來的最大跌幅占比也下跌到40年以來的新低甚至在2022年全球核電發電量相較於2021年還下降了4%甚至可以看出這是自福島核災以來最大的降幅"},{"start":11534.874,"end":11562.182,"text":"請問主委跟次長你們對於全球核電使用占比出現新低你們認為有什麼樣的背景因素導致於全球核電發電量的下降跟使用占比也創下新低謝謝委員我想這個部分可能就是有些機組這個除以了嘛那可能有些新的機組沒有上來我想主要的原因可能就是來自於這個機組的一個這個新舊之間的替換這個是其他國家的現況還是台灣的現況"},{"start":11564.53,"end":11585.835,"text":"您剛剛請教的部分就是全球的情形那我剛剛報告裡面有看到說有很多機組都是停業下來有些新建的機組還在新建中那我想可能是因為這個原因吧我個人推估好這是您個人推估但是我們有另外一個數據跟您分享我們來看下一頁在2023年世界核能產業現況報告裡面看到另外一個重要的資訊除了核電量往下降之外"},{"start":11586.235,"end":11597.038,"text":"重點是非水利的再生能源發電逐漸上升甚至相較於核電它是逐年上升甚至在2021年相關太陽光電還有風電的總發電量超過核電到了2022年相較核電發電量還高出將近30%來到28%相關的負載率已經有顯著提升"},{"start":11607.84,"end":11632.694,"text":"甚至我們在看國際能源總屬還預測在2025年再生能源將超越燃煤成為全球最主要的動力來源也就是說所有這些再生能源發電逐年上升加上核電逐年下降這個綜合起來看你們認為我想請經濟部回答這樣的國際趨勢是不是在經濟部的相關能源政策裡面是有確實掌握到的"},{"start":11633.784,"end":11650.411,"text":"我們所知道的部分就是全球現在是邁向2050近零碳排綠能還是一個很重要的邁向2050近零碳排的主要的一個這個解決的方案那這樣的方案對於台灣的產業發展有什麼樣的好處尤其是台灣有大量的出口產業"},{"start":11651.482,"end":11673.785,"text":"我想它有直接的跟間接的一個好處直接的部分當然是我們對綠能不僅僅提供低碳無碳的能源而能帶起新興的產業比如說綠能有相關的新興產業另外一個間接的部分就是說我們用到綠能的產業他們也可以更多的無碳的能源來拓展國際的市場"},{"start":11675.026,"end":11678.348,"text":"這樣的市場對於台灣出口產業確實是有很大幫助在國際趨勢底下我們來看每次只要講到國際趨勢就有很多國際資訊會被誤用往下看下一個在去年12月COBR28大會期間各國對於能源使用有些討論在場外有美國我說的是場外美國有22個擁核國家說2050年核能發電量會增加三倍"},{"start":11698.78,"end":11701.941,"text":"可是我們如果仔細去看那個內文會發現其實這不是當時會議的正式決議事實上正式的大會結論是說歐盟還有118個國家將發起再生能源和能源效率全球承諾要在2030年"},{"start":11717.145,"end":11733.384,"text":"把全球再生能源容量增為三倍全球平均能源效率提高率增為兩倍所以關於再生能源的承諾跟大家願意去實踐去努力去規劃這應該才是全球共識吧這邊可不可以請次長回答一下也跟大家做個說明"},{"start":11735.225,"end":11757.458,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面有提到說我們有看到國際的能源總署推估核能的發電占比在2030年是10%2050年是8%那我們是依照這個國際在統計資料來做一個說明這樣子那這個說明之外我們在協助國內產業應該也是往這個方向去規劃你們的能源政策對嗎目前我們都是積極的發展我們的再生能源"},{"start":11758.378,"end":11775.162,"text":"這個部分我們也希望經濟部或者是經濟部站在協助產業的角度還有核安會站在為國人安全把關的情況下我們持續往這裡努力那我時間有限我們來看下一個那次長請回謝謝我們來看一下關於這個游離輻射的事情我們辦公室一直有跟核安會這邊討論過關於游離輻射防護法修正的進度對嗎主委您有意向嗎"},{"start":11780.903,"end":11809.337,"text":"相關法規的修正進度其實很重要是關於醫療從業人員他們的劑量管制的問題那我們知道你們對相關醫療從業人員作業投入關注可是因為他們工作頻繁接觸到這些放射線需要積極的管制所以這邊我們會拜託核安會要積極更注意可是我們來往下看之前媒體有報導雙核醫院影像醫學部懷孕女醫師移遭職場霸凌強迫連續上班32個小時而且暴露在游離輻射環境工作"},{"start":11809.917,"end":11830.284,"text":"這個事件核安會清楚嗎?清楚好 那我們辦公室跟核安會服防組還有勞動部職安署所知我們發現有一個框框這邊我特別框起來主委請您看一下相關的資料顯示出來勞工健檢目前有第三級的情況請問主委您可以說明一下什麼是所謂的第三級嗎還是我來說好了您說好了"},{"start":11836.536,"end":11845.64,"text":"每年的一個核能體檢的裡頭都會去做一個工作上的一些健康的識別度那這個是由專業的醫生來去做的"},{"start":11851.134,"end":11862.884,"text":"你剛剛講的聽起來好像沒有什麼可是我來念給你聽在你們說明當中你們說特殊健康檢查或是健康追蹤檢查結果部分或全部項目異常經過醫師綜合判定為異常而無法確定此異常與工作之相關性應該進一步請職業醫學科專科醫師評估換言之不能排除身體健檢異常與工作無關而且實務上要留意跟追蹤為什麼我剛剛說這一位醫師"},{"start":11879.717,"end":11888.864,"text":"他的工作情況跟游離輻射我們這邊認為如果特殊見解的結果是第三級的管理機制那這邊核安會是不是應該有更積極的相關追蹤"},{"start":11891.071,"end":11917.82,"text":"我們核安會都有去介入那目前你們追蹤的進度關於這個個案或者是其他的案例這部分我們會是其他的相關工作人員對我們會再去就是再去要求我們的設施經營者也就是雇主要必須要對他的一個健康來去做一個一個追蹤然後如果是有有跟職業有關係的那就會去調整所謂的一些一些相關的一個輻射作業"},{"start":11918.12,"end":11920.582,"text":"接下來吳村成委員吳村成委員吳村成委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員張志倫委員好謝謝 咨詢時間4分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":11952.674,"end":11977.642,"text":"好謝謝主席各位官員各位委員大家早安好師傅有請這個我們核安會的陳主委好我們核安會陳主委謝謝張委員好主委好先請教你今天在討論這個核能安全跟我們未來台灣的核能的政策我想先請教你這個核能是不是綠能"},{"start":11979.52,"end":12003.975,"text":"核能不是綠能核能不是綠能為什麼不是綠能為什麼不是綠能 國外很多國家都是認為它是綠能 可不可以解答為什麼不是綠能核能是低碳能源 但是它不是綠能 因為它不是renewable那歐盟不是認定說它是綠能嗎 那主委你是用哪裡的資訊說它是低碳的不是綠能"},{"start":12007.688,"end":12008.188,"text":"再生能源才是綠能的一部分"},{"start":12028.939,"end":12051.82,"text":"我相信主委解釋本席現在是不太能接受啦因為歐洲都認為核能是綠能所以未來將我們台灣要這個減塵減碳以及排放碳稅這些東西都會相關的影響所以當然我希望說主委要為自己的話語來負責那如果核能不是綠能那請問主委核四要不要重啟"},{"start":12055.635,"end":12061.908,"text":"這個能源政策我想是應該請經濟部來回答我們是安全管制機關是不是請經濟部來協助來幫忙一下"},{"start":12067.196,"end":12095.504,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部我們金秘委員剛剛垂詢核四的問題核四是公投沒有通過所以核四是現在就是啟動好 謝謝那感謝經濟部的回答那剛剛這個主委說不是綠能那另外一個說公投沒有過所以還沒辦法重啟那我請教一下現在這個在經濟部上面我們的核四它整個營造的費用是多少錢"},{"start":12097.148,"end":12119.117,"text":"建設到現在的費用是多少錢?2838億2838億如果核委會的主委認為不是綠能另外的我們的經濟部認為他沒辦法重啟那以台電的角度以財快的角度來講這2800多億是不是通通應該打給費用?"},{"start":12121.59,"end":12142.298,"text":"因為他已經不算是我們一般人認定的資產資產的定義跟這個台電報告就是他是一個可以使用未來可以產生經濟效益的東西請問一個資產2800多億沒有辦法產生大家都否定的情況下請問台電什麼時候要把這個資產打給費用請回答"},{"start":12145.071,"end":12150.662,"text":"因為20212011公投沒有通過所以他不重啟那如果不重啟是不是就該打成非?你認為他是資產嗎?"},{"start":12152.281,"end":12172.246,"text":"所以經濟部跟台電公司必須提出一個轉型的計畫根據這個轉型計畫去替代原先的所謂的核四的工程計畫以後那麼會整個盤點哪些資產是可以再回收再使用的比如說像建物或者是其他的設備但請問現在統計出來了嗎就2800億而言經濟部請問經濟部統計出來哪些可以回收的錢是多少錢"},{"start":12178.488,"end":12194.146,"text":"目前來講必須要等到那個轉型計劃到時候我們要抱怨同意以後才會發表展型計劃已經申請多久了請問一下目前來講還沒有向院申請已經有計劃了嗎我們只是一個一個初步初步研究多久了初步"},{"start":12195.448,"end":12213.906,"text":"大概從202121應該是差不多一年的時間左右所以我覺得今天開這個會我非常不能接受就是三個部門有點互相推後鼻球那我來請教一下還有一個非常重的重點請問核四的燃料棒現在在哪裡現在在美國請問核四送到美國去的"},{"start":12215.236,"end":12243.689,"text":"應該是2022的3月2022的3月現在已經2024年的5月了所以我本席要提出來的是說當時是誰下這個命令把核四的燃料棒運送出去從燃料棒運送出去了以後發現賣不掉改成燃料碗現在每年還要負擔非常高額的保存費請問台電這邊有沒有預計什麼時候賣到底還要請問一下這個燃料棒當時買多少錢我們每年要交給美國管理費是多少錢"},{"start":12246.171,"end":12269.51,"text":"這個應該不是說誰決策因為我們是依據當時立法院2018年1月的決議必須當時必須要把這個燃料運到國外另外一個廠家有進行一個評估就是說即使即使即使核是重啟他現在的燃料你也沒辦法再使用因為那一塊是屬於一個舊型的燃料所以整個燃料的使用必須要再重新再評估才有可能"},{"start":12270.168,"end":12296.169,"text":"好 所以這就是本席非常不能接受的從2021年我們核是就是送出去說要賣給國外的這個燃料棒後來賣不出去改成燃料丸中間不管是印製費用當時購買的錢而且當時我記得當時政府單位是說可以賣很高的價錢所以才同意把它送出去所以當時這一塊我你沒有提到可是當時是認為可以賣高價才可以賣出去結果想不到滯銷"},{"start":12297.47,"end":12313.911,"text":"至少以後把它換成燃料棒換成燃料碗然後現在還是賣不出去每年還要保管費還要非常大的金額所以我覺得這是非常不能接受所以我認為今天本席來這邊我認為三個這個我們政府單位都應該要好好來"},{"start":12315.192,"end":12316.993,"text":"拜託我們一起來關心不要浪費我們的民間納稅錢以上 謝謝"},{"start":12347.916,"end":12353.844,"text":"林柱英委員羅明財委員林倩琦委員"},{"start":12375.238,"end":12387.713,"text":"謝謝主席我們請原能會主委還有次長然後能源署是不是今天的代表是副署長"},{"start":12389.498,"end":12390.479,"text":"提前部署小型核電發展核能安全配套措施"},{"start":12411.118,"end":12411.458,"text":"第二 藍雲核廢料存廢遷移他處的可能性評估"},{"start":12429.602,"end":12431.582,"text":"第3個部分是核安人員的部分那我們知道這個核安其實很重要的在"},{"start":12456.732,"end":12456.892,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":12471.423,"end":12473.285,"text":"在人員的這個部分會內怎麼樣協同相關單位來處理能力不足的這個區塊"},{"start":12500.506,"end":12528,"text":"如果有必要本席這邊可以協助但是這必須是一個議題來探討所以這個有關於這個監控人員不足的這個區塊還有你們在各地分部對核安監控的輻射輻射監控的這個人員這部分我想請會內這邊不知道現在有沒有相關的這個計畫在處理那待會給我簡單的一個回應好不好這個是先對主委的這個部分"},{"start":12529.622,"end":12537.898,"text":"接下來就是大家都很關心的這個能源的相關議題那我知道其實這個核能不等於"},{"start":12539.093,"end":12558.307,"text":"只有發電了那我是不是可以請這個經濟部這邊就您或者是這個能源署可以跟我們做一個解釋簡單的解釋啦那以目前來講大家不太沒有辦法社會大陸沒有辦法搞得很清楚我們這些專業的詞語但是專業的詞語呢被很簡單的運用也會搞得"},{"start":12563.171,"end":12571.745,"text":"這個整個社會大眾搞不清楚所以可不可以很簡單的就您非常確切的這個講法可以告訴我們什麼叫再生能源嗎以你們的定義就你們現在處理的業務跟定義好不好"},{"start":12579.573,"end":12597.972,"text":"主要再生能源是以天然的環境因素所產生的能源目前為主大概主要是以風力跟太陽能為主的比較成熟型的再生能源為主未來可能包括地熱這個部分的發展"},{"start":12601.581,"end":12608.665,"text":"謝謝,你們現在是風力,太陽能跟地熱那可以告訴本席這個部分是未來跟電力直接關係的嗎?"},{"start":12609.771,"end":12630.12,"text":"是,我們現在的那個太陽光電就直接發電使用那風力發電的話包括這個離岸或陸域都是直接供應這個發電使用那未來地熱也是發電使用好的那以目前來講你這講的這三種那各佔了多少發電的比例目前我們國內的再生能源大概去年的發電佔比是9.5%其他的是"},{"start":12634.315,"end":12661.045,"text":"其實它包括我們的抽蓄水利啊昨天五以外還包括抽蓄水利就對了我剛剛講的是去年我們的再生能源的占比是占我們發電的總量的9.5%那這包括太陽光電就您剛才講的嘛這個風力發電太陽光電地熱地熱還有包括那個剩下的90%大概是水利水利水利對90%都是水利嘛水利對還有那個對水利為主沒有火力就對了"},{"start":12662.245,"end":12673.971,"text":"我剛剛講是再生能源那當然我們全部的能源所以你現在水利是在再生能源裡面還是是是是OK水利也是再生能源那另外90%你那9.5嘛那90.5%是什麼那就是我們現在的火力發電像藍煤大概佔42%去年那燃氣燒天然氣佔40%所以火力是12%嘛對然後核能還有佔6.3%核能佔6.3%嘛"},{"start":12692.185,"end":12709.135,"text":"那各位可以知道這個核能的比例是非常低的嘛那依據本席所知道那應該核能不等於只有發電的功能嘛對不對還是核能是完全供應給電力使用沒有錯但是我們所有的發電不是只有核能是是是所以以這些比例上來講那"},{"start":12711.412,"end":12726.268,"text":"這個可能就關係到主委的這個有關的安全性所以您是也是在地震偵查的一個專業所以那依據本席的了解那如果有核安的問題以目前的這個核能電廠雖然全世界發生了好幾個這個核安的事件"},{"start":12726.829,"end":12729.511,"text":"主委您可以告訴我目前在這個部分的評估"},{"start":12742.793,"end":12770.65,"text":"這個部分是我們的核心主要是臺灣畢竟是地震頻繁還好我們做了很多的措施剛開始在設計的時候它就有一定的耐震的標準我們大概在2007年有一個緊急自動安全的關閉的裝置後續我們又做了很多次的補強"},{"start":12771.71,"end":12793.605,"text":"那包含這個311之後那麼我們要求這個台電公司做Shake Level 3那我想剩下最後一里路啦因為這個國外的同行審查那麼我們會裡面會來做這一方面的把關那麼如果有必要再做補強那麼我們也會要求台電來做這一方面的補強以上"},{"start":12795.166,"end":12805.995,"text":"好的謝謝那不好意思那你們那個先前有溝通過跟台電齁有溝通過這個部分的補強嗎台電可以回應一下嗎就是園能會這邊跟你們處理了這相關的補強那你們目前的這個業務在補強的這個區塊是做的怎麼樣"},{"start":12812.802,"end":12836.016,"text":"大概初步的補強我們大概做了相關的補強工作各位委員報告其實它這個總共有三個階段第一個階段大概就是把所有的地質做調查包括所有的核電廠附近的地質做調查那一部分我們大概就花了4年到5年還有一個美國專家跟國內專家組成一個平台大家互相去定出一個所謂的地震力"},{"start":12836.876,"end":12842.297,"text":"第二階段大概就是核安會要求我們做初步的耐震補強耐震補強我們大概做完了也送給他了第三階段就在算什麼算風險度的評估也算機率爐心熔毀的這個機率目前這部分我們"},{"start":12859.562,"end":12859.902,"text":"總共有三個階段"},{"start":12884.345,"end":12910.659,"text":"這個部分請問什麼時候會做好?最後那個階段大概同樣審查核三我們大概到年底那核二的部分大概會到大概明年的年初那可不可以請你們針對這個部分來給本席一個專案報告那相關的資料也給本席那那個核安會不好意思那個今天這三項就麻煩主委是不是把你們目前在處理的相關進度"},{"start":12911.639,"end":12932.314,"text":"還有包括您說那個國外比如美國目前做到一半或者是做到多少%進度台灣目前做到多少那全世界我今天整個質詢沒有聽到全世界目前怎麼做我再把相關的資料送給委員辦公室所以那個台電就麻煩你這個部分給我相關的給我一個專案報告好嗎謝謝好 謝謝接下來羅志強委員"},{"start":12947.065,"end":12953.987,"text":"主席有請那個核安會主委還有經濟部次長好我們請主委跟次長謝謝羅委員好請教主委蔡英文總統要在2025年要把核能歸零目前這個目標還是沒改變嗎"},{"start":12972.811,"end":12987.867,"text":"是的,我想跟委員稍微說明一下,核安會是能源安全的主管機關市長,核能歸零目前這個目標沒變吧?是,我們現在是以這樣的一個在處理"},{"start":12990.253,"end":13006.512,"text":"那所以那個核能要歸零他有幾個成功要件對不對蔡英文總統的能源配比當中要把核能歸零那主要是他在再生能源的配比他希望2025達到多少百分之二十的發電打到了嗎"},{"start":13007.843,"end":13017.967,"text":"目前我們推估大概有差距現在是9.6%發電的9.5%今年大概會到13%我們推估後年就2025年大概會到15%超過15%目前還在做掌握當中所以就短缺個5%嘛那拿什麼補"},{"start":13031.884,"end":13058.41,"text":"這還是先順著理想狀態啦我們現在次長答應明年的再生能源是到15%嘛 對不對我們對推估到15那明年我們再來檢驗有沒有到15因為蔡英文說20嘛可見現在已經打了七五折了嘛打了七五折那再看看明年是不是要再繼續打折那請問那5%的部分怎麼補啊"},{"start":13061.796,"end":13074.495,"text":"我想我們的電力供應基本上是還有其他的一個燃煤或燃氣的一個基礎就火力嘛不是燃煤就燃氣嘛還有別的選項嗎目前大概就是這樣"},{"start":13076.181,"end":13097.559,"text":"所以為什麼說今天齁賴清德總統說大家都需要供電穩定所以要推動二次能源轉型發展多元綠能智慧電網強化電力系統的韌性那他也提了一個比蔡英文總統更宏偉的目標他說2030年欸2030年現在只差6年對不對他的目標是什麼再次能源要達到多少你知道嗎市長我說賴清德總統的承諾"},{"start":13106.176,"end":13129.308,"text":"這個部分抱歉我不清楚我們總統的承諾還是要記住啦百分之三十請問次長做得到嗎你到明年我們蔡英文在提出這個在當選的時候他說要這個戰勝能源到20%可是在當時馬政府的結束的時候戰勝能源是多少不到5%將近5%啦"},{"start":13134.252,"end":13158.687,"text":"因為我是在馬政府工作過,將近5啦那結果從2016年到現在8年你也只到9%,9%嘛對不對,大概將近5啦所以換言之8年多5%現在剩下6年你要從10變30要多20%來,請問部長我們有什麼通天本理要做到這件事情"},{"start":13160.132,"end":13184.84,"text":"我想這個從技術端專業端的分析我跟委員報告我們這幾年綠能增加很多但是我們另外一個我知道增加很多那我們另外一個無碳的能源就是核能下來所以部長你也很有信心2030年可以到30%是不是是因為我們非常謝謝部長我肯定你的信心而且我不是部長不好意思次長我很肯定你的信心"},{"start":13186.6,"end":13199.949,"text":"希望不要你的信心跟蔡英文總統一樣打七五折到時候那接下來我就要問到底現在我們對於這個核能的政策態度是如何因為"},{"start":13200.902,"end":13223.709,"text":"郭志輝我們的部長之前他說對於核能議題他跟國發會主委昨天國發會主委也跟媒體聚會時已經說表態如果朝野對核能重啓有共識他個人並不排斥所以經濟部到底現在態度是什麼核能要不要重啓核二核三要不要延役態度是什麼"},{"start":13224.744,"end":13251.733,"text":"我們很明確有三個很重要的原則就是不缺電嘛不是 首要是核能安全要確保另外一個部分就是核廢料的處理要有妥適的一個解決方案那當然另外社會共識也是那核能安全現在有把握嗎這可能我們按照核能安全是按照相關的規範在進行中市長 你是主管機關你都答不出答案這事實上還誰能幫你答答案啊台電誰主管的啊"},{"start":13253.199,"end":13282.314,"text":"所以現在就應該知道核能安全這個條件做不做得到啊當然一定做到因為我們的監管很好所以第一個做到第二是什麼核廢料核廢料做不做得到目前目前有很複雜困難的問題第三個是什麼社會的共識社會的共識嘛前兩項其實至少第一項操作在你嘛你認為做得到對不對我們一定要做到一定要做到非常好謝謝你啦也還馬政府或還台電的公道啦"},{"start":13283.462,"end":13300.389,"text":"那麼多年的非核家園的認證的重點核心就是認為你做不到核能安全不是嗎謝謝你還了公道所以我是說句實在話百走八年冤枉路了搞了半天回頭現在要重新來檢討核能但沒有關係亡羊補牢時猶未晚"},{"start":13301.149,"end":13319.565,"text":"我支持今天我們戴清德總統跟政府正式能源問題重新正式重啓核能的問題包括核二三延役的問題有困難如果正式下定次長是不是就去解決他如果啦如果啦我說過我們現在按照相關的規定在做處理那現在相關的規定"},{"start":13320.666,"end":13334.824,"text":"其實我跟你講如果賴清澤總下令你也不用什麼按照相當規定的你也得使命必達嘛 對不對所以我就等賴清澤總一聲令下號令大軍轉彎啦!核電重啟啦!我等著賴清澤宣布謝謝以上"},{"start":13338,"end":13338.501,"text":"蔡易瑜委員楊瓊英委員"},{"start":13352.039,"end":13381.278,"text":"好那今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有吳村城委員、楊瓊瑜委員、翁小林委員提出書面的質詢那對於今天的會議我們做以下的決定報告還有詢答完畢委員所提的書面質詢或是相關的資料我們列入記錄並且刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或為其答覆的部分請相關機關盡數以書面來做答覆那報告委員會今天議程處理完畢"},{"start":13381.878,"end":13383.5,"text":"我們現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":13413.827,"end":13417.428,"text":"獲得全球核能發電趨勢及新型核能成為永續能源之規劃。"},{"start":13444.3,"end":13445.221,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13482.826,"end":13483.147,"text":"本期視頻到此為止。"}]}},{"id":"15957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15957","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ea75a1f35c7302ecdad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be47b08eb46e6e87ec25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-29","start_time":"2024-05-29T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:21:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13845,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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審查財政收支劃分法十四案"},{"start":1923.178,"end":1945.035,"text":"1.本院台灣民進黨黨團理據財政收支劃分法修正草案2.本院國民黨黨團委員羅明才等23人委員林思明等20人委員徐宇貞等16人委員洪孟台等22人分別理據財政收支劃分法部分條件修正草案等5萬3.本院委員吳立華等17人理據財政收支劃分法第三條條件修正草案4.本院委員陳玉珍等24人理據"},{"start":1946.116,"end":1969.147,"text":"財政收支劃分法第8條條人修正草案5.本院委員王宏威等24人擬拒財政收支劃分法第8條第12條及第30條條人修正草案6.本院委員陳昌明等17人擬拒財政收支劃分法第8條第12條及第16條之一條人修正草案7.本院委員賴瑞榮等16人委員蔡玉儀等16人分別擬拒財政收支劃分法第16條之一條人修正草案等2案"},{"start":1970.972,"end":1987.05,"text":"本院委員賴世保等二十九人擬據財政收支劃分法第十六條之二第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二調研修正常案本院委員賴世保等二十二人擬據財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一調研修正常案經委員洪孟凱兼國民黨黨團代表臺灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊委員"},{"start":1990.633,"end":2005.505,"text":"陳昌明、陳玉珍、賴世寶、羅明才說明提案要旨財政部部長莊卓盈回應黨團委員法律提案後藉由委員林大夫等8人提出質詢均經財政部部長莊卓盈等予以說明及答覆決議本日議程尋答至此令則期繼續開會113年5月22日"},{"start":2009.5,"end":2026.136,"text":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融率所屬機關所長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司監管相關機構有關之財團法人臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司臺灣企業交易所股份有限公司臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長總經理列席業務報告並備質詢"},{"start":2027.797,"end":2053.66,"text":"經金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金榮提出報告後．由委員林德武等21人提出質詢。均經金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金榮等予以答覆。決定一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊。請金融監督管理委員會於一週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其鎖定。三、委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。並請金融監督管理委員會以書面答覆。宣布完畢。"},{"start":2057.3,"end":2081.252,"text":"請問各位委員對上次議事錄有無異議?無異議議事錄確定請議事人宣讀今日議程邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告．並備質詢宣傳品好原理我們介紹在場委員與會官員首先我們介紹我們財政委員會兩位資深的這位委員第一位林德福林委員還有吳秉瑞吳委員"},{"start":2086.175,"end":2101.95,"text":"接著我們介紹我們新任的主計總處主計長陳淑姿陳總計長歡迎主計長還有我們徐雅琳徐祖密中規處李義軍理處長公務處徐勇義許處長基金預算處黃淑娟黃處長"},{"start":2114.578,"end":2131.065,"text":"會計決算處許玉娟許處長綜合統計處蔡玉泰蔡處長國事普查處潘玲欣潘處長主計資訊處副處長吳淑玲吳副處長人事處游金淳游處長秘書處楊滿兒主任"},{"start":2142.83,"end":2171.555,"text":"政風是陳美倫主任主計處詹英俊主任好今日一程安排行政院主計總處業務報告現在請陳主計長進行業務報告主席各位委員女士及先生大家好"},{"start":2172.489,"end":2190.601,"text":"今天應邀列席貴委員會來報告本總處業務的一個概況自感榮幸本總處負責政府的預算、會計決算、統計調查和主計資訊業務等以下僅就重要的業務辦理的情形來提出報告那請敬請各位委員來指教"},{"start":2191.461,"end":2213.472,"text":"預算的業務方面第一個根據實施中層計劃預算作業制度和籌編114年中央政府總預算案及附屬單位預算及中計表那我們是為了使計劃預算能夠緊密結合提升政府資源能夠有使用效益所以我們根據落實中層計劃的一個作業制度各主管機關114到117年度中層"},{"start":2217.053,"end":2233.386,"text":"稅出概算額度,行政院在4月30已經核定,由各機關在核定的額度範圍內配合行政院施政主軸,託為安排預算資源。本總署將在兼顧政府財政健全和國家發展的前提下,"},{"start":2234.086,"end":2248.974,"text":"協助各部會按計劃優先順序合理配置運用整理資源並依預算法規定將114年度中央總預算案和附屬單位預算綜計表在本年8月底送大院審議"},{"start":2251.035,"end":2279.321,"text":"編制完成113年度中央政府總預算和附屬單位預算及中計表送請大院審議113年度中央總預算和附屬單位預算和中計表包括營業和非營業的部分配合政府施政的目標強化淨零轉型階段目標關鍵戰略加強基金財務控管還有提升營運效能等原則來籌編總收入是部分含基金來源總共有6兆8千零74億"},{"start":2280.841,"end":2307.87,"text":"總支出的部分是6兆7,634億,淨利是440億元和繳庫2,570億元在去年8月31,隨同113年,中央政府總預算案送請大院來審議那截至本月5月1號時,大院各委員會已經審查完畢,審查結果將交由朝野黨團協商我們期盼大院能儘速完成審議,以立個基金業務的一個推動"},{"start":2310.431,"end":2330.12,"text":"編制完成113年中央政府總預算追加預算案．送請大院來審議為有效減緩國際燃料飆漲導致電價大幅上漲照顧民生穩定物價支持弱勢及兼顧產業競爭力臺灣電力有限公司承擔政策任務以低於用電成本計收電費"},{"start":2332.061,"end":2356.498,"text":"公司本年度仍持續吸收燃料成本導致虧損為支持維繫該公司正常營運使其繼續能夠穩定供電的一個使命經依預算法規定編制113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案在5月2號送請大院來審議那整個追加預算案的部分呢我們雖然先行舉借1000億元來舉債但是我們112年總決算經審定"},{"start":2362.201,"end":2367.324,"text":"審計部審定後將以稅計剩餘來支應。會計決算的業務是編制完成112年度中央政府總決算及附屬單位決算和中計表"},{"start":2375.407,"end":2395.763,"text":"一百二十二月中央總決算副主單位決算中計表營業和穩營業部分依經決算法的規定會邊完成提經行政院會審議通過本年四月三十送監察院其中總稅入決算兩兆九千零七十四億元稅出決算兩兆六千兩百八十四億元"},{"start":2396.883,"end":2400.947,"text":"稅率稅出相抵剩餘2790億那扣除債務成本1260億以後收支剩餘1530億復讀單位決算收入是7兆1858億元總支出是7兆177億元淨利1680億元"},{"start":2416.379,"end":2439.517,"text":"深化政府內部控制的監督機制為強化機關能夠自主管理根據輔導行政院所屬各機關學校每年簽署內部控制的聲明書協助機關來充實內部集合人員相關智能增進集合的效率深化內部控制的監督作業提升施政的效能順利達成施政目標"},{"start":2440.718,"end":2464.051,"text":"第三項統計調查的業務 第一個我們是辦理國民所得的統計本年4月30發佈最新國民所得統計113年第1季經濟成長率概括是6.51 主要是人工智慧還有新興科技應用需求揚升以及來台旅客持續擴增 商品和服務輸出成長10.21"},{"start":2466.452,"end":2495.103,"text":"純潔假期推升零售餐飲航空旅遊等國內外消費持續成長加上房市交易升溫帶動居家用品的一個消費和股市一個熱度的一個延續所以民間消費成長4.14那還有運輸工具這些銀上工程和智慧財產投資的增加雖然在機械設備投資方面有緊縮但是我們這個部分經濟成長還是有看好"},{"start":2495.863,"end":2497.624,"text":"展望113年,標普全國5月預測全球經濟成長2.7%與112年持平,國際貿易基金也預測113年的貿易量由113年度成長0.3%回升至3%"},{"start":2514.005,"end":2534.492,"text":"全球中端一個商品消費也是直接回升加上人工智慧和高效能運算的新興科技應用商機持續擴展出口動能可能回升內需方面的廠商為維持技術領先優勢因應數位以淨零轉型然後持續投入研發和製造成本以及運輸業者為"},{"start":2535.913,"end":2537.554,"text":"本年2月我們預測國內經濟成長是3.43那5月底我們會依照最新的一個情勢來做更新的一個預測"},{"start":2564.855,"end":2583.484,"text":"那在下面有近年經濟成長的一個概況表請各位來參閱那我們這第二個是辦理物價的統計那總處按月根據實際實際查價的一個結果編制各種物價指數一到四月消費者物價指數較112年同期漲2.24那食物類是漲3.51"},{"start":2589.787,"end":2609.5,"text":"主要是外食、水果、肉類和價格仍高,蔬菜和蛋類價格下跌,抵銷部分的一個漲幅,服務類價格上漲,因全數最大的房屋延續緩漲,加上醫療院所調升掛號費,跨境旅遊的需求與服務費用的價格也是"},{"start":2610.5,"end":2633.737,"text":"有推升所以如果我們扣除蔬果和能源核心CPI是上漲2.12那從購買頻度別來觀賞每個月至少購買一次的部分比去年一直失業比去年漲3.23那明顯高於整體CPI是民眾對物價所以民眾對物價感受會比較深"},{"start":2634.918,"end":2644.181,"text":"生產者物價指數PPI的部分是一至四月是上漲0.49那主要是因為新台幣對美元貶值3.91所以新台幣計價的一個電子零組件和電腦這些等價格上漲加上電價的一個調漲所以我們會"},{"start":2654.144,"end":2675.817,"text":"但是中油它有調降,受於電業用戶的天然氣價格和食品、飾品這些價格下跌,抵銷部分的一個帳戶那國內物價變動的概況,相互表請參閱那再來就是我們有辦理社會保障支出的一個統計那這個我們總處群立在去年"},{"start":2678.796,"end":2691.821,"text":"編佈111年度的社會保障支出呈現政府提供全民享有健康和最低生活保障支出的一個配置的樣貌111年社會保障支出有2,342億元佔GDP的11.2平均每一個人是10.9萬元那比111"},{"start":2699.436,"end":2721.07,"text":"一百一十年增加一千一百八十一億元或增加4.9那因為政府疫苗採購和接種相關費用的增加健保幾戶的成長與有相關津貼和救血補助提高還有退休幾戶勤勞人員增加和長照服務能量提升所以會整個一個大量的增加"},{"start":2723.038,"end":2736.174,"text":"社會局各類風險或負擔之保障功能觀察111年度如果用於高齡者有1兆1357億元占45.4然後用於保障疾病和健康功能占36.4以111"},{"start":2739.458,"end":2740.839,"text":"因疫情相關生活補貼減少,所以減少28.8%"},{"start":2769.352,"end":2772.356,"text":"各相關的一個支出的一個詳細的數據請參照表示和表5"},{"start":2777.981,"end":2802.191,"text":"那再來就是辦理人力第4個辦理人力供需各樣抽樣調查我們為了掌握就業失業薪資和人力需求我們按月辦理人力資源調查和受雇員工薪資調查然後定期提供最新勞動市場供需的一個資訊按年辦理補充性專案調查收集勞動力的一個運用移轉和就業失業的概況員工勞工報酬條件情形所謂空缺狀況和資訊應用相關公務大數據"},{"start":2808.033,"end":2824.524,"text":"去編算國人赴海外工作人數統計和薪資中位數的一個統計呈現不同年齡和教育程度等特別特徵別詳細分布的一個狀況來充實就業案薪資一個統計的內涵那113年4月就業人數是1157.9萬人比112年增加7.3萬4月人數呢由40.3萬人減"},{"start":2833.57,"end":2838.434,"text":"-1.4萬人 失業率3.36 年降0.14% 四周失業率3.38 年降0.19% 勞動市場情況整個穩定一到三月的工業和服務業全體受惠員工每年經常薪資46,030 比112年同期增加2.25"},{"start":2855.209,"end":2862.737,"text":"總薪資也增加3.24,剔除物價因素之後經常薪資減少0.09,實質總薪資增加0.88百分比各項重要指標請參閱表6"},{"start":2872.383,"end":2884.757,"text":"那辦理基本國事調查建立國家基本形式發揮統計資源的一個功能呢統計法規定我們有完成110年工業和服務業普查的一個總報告現在正在編"},{"start":2887.1,"end":2911.568,"text":"業別和縣市別的一個報告規劃114年我們要辦農林漁牧業普查一個構想案方案運用相關的公務到數據和機器學習技術我們製造模型編制縣市別常住人口的一個統計那第6個我們也辦理家庭收支的一個統計家庭收支的概況總處辦理年家庭收支調查實地訪問和運用"},{"start":2913.089,"end":2941.178,"text":"相關部會的公務登記的大數據資料編制我國家庭收支統計調查結果然後提供各項改善國民生活案推行社會福利的一個餐具那社會救助法最低生活費那稅者權利保護法基本生活費等的訂定所以每戶可支配所得可以分無等分來關那111年最高20%的家庭和最低20%家庭所得差距是6.15倍"},{"start":2942.558,"end":2967.224,"text":"以110年度相當那近10年來均在6.05和6.15倍之間那90年呢他是6.3998年是6.34那100年是6.17那由於以戶為單位來衡量家庭所得容易受到戶內人數消長的影響所以如果以每個人來觀察的話可知倍所得近10年介於3.89倍和4.08倍那111年是3.93倍"},{"start":2972.265,"end":2992.857,"text":"主計資訊業務部分第4個就是辦理中央和地方相關預算會計資訊系統的業務我們為了中央和地方政府各機關能夠順利辦理預算的編制預算的執行會計的處理決算編制和會編等業務提升主計資訊的整合應用效益我們辦理中央政府稅"},{"start":2993.817,"end":2997.961,"text":"我們也辦理統計普查案資料倉儲等開放作業為提升統計普查作業效率和資料品質配合國事普查、按月薪資調查和人力資源調查等期程"},{"start":3019.478,"end":3038.013,"text":"辦理普查母體地址的整編．普查資料的檢務．普查結果表的編制．網路填報等系統的資訊作業．另外我們也建立建制主計資訊倉儲系統．落實資料盤點和分級．建構資料加密．全線控管及存"},{"start":3038.673,"end":3044.618,"text":"取繪跡及記錄機制以推動資料治理並確保機敏資料的安全本總處的開放預算、決算、統計等資料集總共達1896項上線後總達有238萬餘人去瀏覽有16萬餘人次下載"},{"start":3062.663,"end":3084.35,"text":"第5個：立法院第11屆第1會期第三次貴委員會的一個會議主辦事項的處理本會期貴委員會第三次全體委員會議委員就本總處業務報告所提質詢需以會後答覆者有6項我們均以答覆貴委員會相關委員在案"},{"start":3085.848,"end":3101.759,"text":"竭予以上本總處近期工作推展的情形,今後將持續精進主計業務．換會主計資源施政決策的功能．協助推動各項的政務．敬請各位委員女士先生鼎力支持．祝大家健康快樂,萬事如意,謝謝"},{"start":3102.674,"end":3123.766,"text":"好,謝謝主計長的詳細報告現在我們開始詢答先做以下宣告每位初期委員發言時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘今日上午10點30分截止發言登記現在依照登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":3136.98,"end":3137.701,"text":"主席陳主計長"},{"start":3150.799,"end":3167.967,"text":"我想國發會將發布4月緊急的燈號那預期將會連市率而且因為第一季整個出口表現優於預期媒體報導主計總處可望上修今年的整個經濟成長力到3.5%以上"},{"start":3171.388,"end":3195.068,"text":"那主計長租錢主計長5月初說今年以來整個出口的單價出口量雙雙成長那代表貿易條件並未惡化對未來整個景氣謹慎樂觀那我請問你怎麼看今年第二季以後整個國內與國外的景氣狀況"},{"start":3199.353,"end":3225.273,"text":"我們今年初估是3.43但是第一季呈現的結果就是高達6.51所以如果我們根據這以上的一個條件來做其他都條件都不動來正調整大概是會有新聞上面所報導的就會超過3.5那你會認為第二季以後會變得更好或者是會不會有什麼其他變化會變得更快反轉等等"},{"start":3227.615,"end":3255.118,"text":"因為本身我們情況是持續看好那你認為未來就是第三季第四季都會第二季以後都看好原則上因為當然第一季是比較表現很突出但是我覺得我們初估是三點如果說是以三點五以上那你認為會不會持續再好還是會不會有停頓或者是往下走"},{"start":3255.838,"end":3281.249,"text":"編制上應該是維持3點多這個狀況那但是因為我們大概在5月30號我們會有一個初步的小組會在做整個人一個預測那這預測的一個情形我們也會對外面來公布就是說整個預測的情形那因為我們統計法施行細則有規範就是說在預測前我們各項數字我們大概不能對外透露所以這個部分呢我們原則上大概會"},{"start":3282.029,"end":3303.659,"text":"等到明天的一個出估的會議之後有應該要發布的訊息我們就會對外來做發布以上說明那個主計長有媒體報導國外會設定的目標和主計總處今年二月的預測數3.43%相差無幾那上月底由於第一季GDP"},{"start":3305.34,"end":3321.061,"text":"蓋孤優於預期經濟成長預測調升3.57%雖然是調升但並不代表情勢大而且在去年整個同期的情況"},{"start":3322.142,"end":3322.703,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3339.741,"end":3361.198,"text":"因為我們本來就是說 如果以第一季6.51的各項數據去推算它至少一定是3.57啦 其他維持不變這樣子因為我知道去年是有一些狀況是不好 所以是比較低所以說未來勒 你未來是看好還是走平還是一樣能夠維持至少 我的看法是至少3.5啦"},{"start":3362.979,"end":3385.893,"text":"就是最少最底線就是3.57%是不是這個數字齁還是要等到明天齁我們退估小組的一個會議之後我們再對外來做公布詳細的公布那個主計長我再請教齁主計總處二月底曾經上調今年的整個消費者物價指數CPI年增率到1.85%但當時還沒有納入電價的調漲喔因為四月份喔電價調漲"},{"start":3392.077,"end":3413.958,"text":"的因素再加上整個服務服務類的物價有僵固性外食會和房租可以說這個漲勢都沒有停過所以說整體國內的整個物價上漲的壓力依舊是存在那主計長大多數人一日三餐"},{"start":3415.299,"end":3415.319,"text":"主計長"},{"start":3440.484,"end":3451.672,"text":"目前穩定物價小組的機制在貧富差距越來越大的社會形態下請問你認為運作的機制足夠符合多數民意的期待嗎?"},{"start":3453.073,"end":3461.419,"text":"原則上因為物價的一個上漲有趨緩有趨緩喔那現在如果說是看就是我本來是預估1.851.85但是問題就是說因為電價的調漲那電價的調漲他一整年影響的一個如果是"},{"start":3473.668,"end":3477.313,"text":"會有影響但是問題是說如果是這樣的話應該是由1.85調升到2.03影響應該會調升到2.03初估"},{"start":3494.492,"end":3518.172,"text":"主顧應該是這樣子一個做調整那這個部分呢因為有時候為什麼會覺得物價指數他會感受到很深因為我們是其實整個是368項來做物價這整個一個做調查但是有的是經常性在買的他感受就比較深有的是他不是很經常性在買的他感受就沒有那麼深像我們譬如說電視機他調降8點多但是沒有感覺因為他很久才會買一次所以這就沒有感覺"},{"start":3523.576,"end":3551.801,"text":"據瞭解行政院穩定物價小組關注了17項重要的民生物價互成長0.16%主要是因為雞蛋這個跌價跌幅22.29%是重要民生物價4年來首次互成長的主因那請問主計長民生物價的漲跌消費市場是不是也應該要如實的反映"},{"start":3553.289,"end":3582.054,"text":"應該要不要其實我們每次都有針對17項的一個中華民生物價做調查不是調查而已啦是是是那你你漲的時候你漲下跌的時候是不是也應該要下跌要如實的反應那其實物價穩定小組他都有針對這個來做一個反應譬如說有的譬如說想想他原來譬如說我可能價格維持然後那個量減少那這個部分的我們的"},{"start":3582.854,"end":3606.213,"text":"主計長講一些空話都沒有用實際上你物價上漲了那你當然他這個很多這個一些消費市場你像那個我就舉早餐店好了對不對這個其實吼但價回跌但是看不到外食族消費價格有反應啊對不對"},{"start":3607.284,"end":3632.054,"text":"一顆蛋你在這個買一個不管你任何什麼漢堡什麼的話他還是最少15塊錢啊你蛋價跌他有沒有跌一樣沒有跌啊對不對主計長因為蛋價在市場供過於求的狀況下各地的蛋商面臨囤蛋啊的壓力使得蛋價確定有再降價的可能但是有民眾發現早餐店啊"},{"start":3632.754,"end":3649.701,"text":"加一顆蛋最少是15塊所以說這個讓這些消費者感到不滿就問早餐店為什麼把人民啊好像當盤子一樣那我請問主計長你認為外食族僵固化是不是必然的現象"},{"start":3651.343,"end":3673.006,"text":"因為有時候是這樣子啊就是說你上漲下去要調漲下來這一點是漲上去很快啦調下來很難啦所以說齁你認為需不需要較為有效的方法或管道能夠打破這些僵固性必然的現象來回歸消費這個正常供需的價格"},{"start":3674.484,"end":3701.882,"text":"我們這個會提供給相關單位來做參考然後請他們來演繹那你要是說真的都找不到的話那只有好像用抵制的方式讓消費者才能夠讓這些價格回歸合理化對不對因為齁一般啦外食族他們現在感受的就你只要漲上去他就下不來了啦大家很清楚你齁過去可能你買一個這個"},{"start":3704.994,"end":3705.294,"text":"主席"},{"start":3724.079,"end":3744.192,"text":"賬戶都處在2%左右偏高水準今年3月年增率2.24%的漲幅連3個月擴大更是一年以來房租漲得最高的媒體報導主計總處官員分析通膨以及升息等因素是房租漲價居高的關鍵請問主計長"},{"start":3746.934,"end":3763.72,"text":"就國內目前整個市場的狀況你認為已經調漲價格的房屋的租金降租是不是也有僵固性你認為會不會上去會不會下來目前的趨勢是反漲房租是反漲的趨勢"},{"start":3767.728,"end":3779.785,"text":"主席長因為根據房仲業者的統計今年首季全台預售屋總銷售金額突破5000億大關創下歷史的新高征服高達124.8%"},{"start":3783.109,"end":3809.531,"text":"那房市歷經一連串打草房的政策．以及央行連升息的影響下．房價依舊持續的上揚．不少人等不到房價下跌．來加緊腳步購屋．也推升了整體交易量能．尤其是新浪市場買機非常的驚人．面對萬物起漲唯獨只有薪水不漲那"},{"start":3812.165,"end":3817.841,"text":"買房男阿現在連租屋都快變成男上加男我請問主計長你認為民眾對政府"},{"start":3821.038,"end":3847.641,"text":"又能夠有什麼樣的一個期待?你認為呢?事實上我們在社會住宅或者是說在租金的一個補貼方面各部會也有提供很多的社會住宅很多而且過去講20萬戶實際上落差很大反不及急很多年輕人真的他們一出了社會他們就"},{"start":3848.402,"end":3866.727,"text":"沒有辦法就是立足就是我所賺的錢可能護了房租以後延伸委會都有困難啦我相信主計總處你們跟政府各單位平行的單位要好好的去探討研究看怎麼來解決這些問題啦好不好謝謝好謝謝林德夫委員的諮詢緊接著我們請吳秉瑞委員諮詢"},{"start":3882.219,"end":3883.364,"text":"主席麻煩請陳主計長有請主計長"},{"start":3889.813,"end":3897.016,"text":"財政部編列的稅科收入相當高的比例高過後來都是低於後來的實增數後來的實際收到的數目比他的稅務的預算編列"},{"start":3915.578,"end":3915.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3932.514,"end":3949.96,"text":"這個部分據我了解因為財政部他在估算的時候他有一個估算的一個小組然後他也透過各種精算的一個辦法來做一個推估做一個推估那事實上他111跟112他增加了將近4000億"},{"start":3951.3,"end":3951.48,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3970.623,"end":3973.605,"text":"主理長我跟你說明我在這邊很了解很久了所以我很了解他們的心態他們稍微編的保守達成率都超過百分之百"},{"start":3989.451,"end":4010.666,"text":"是因為這樣的心態結果因為這樣的編列過於保守使得差距過大的時候會衍生非常多的流弊第一個就有了利用這個資訊的落差在講什麼還稅於民啊用一些錯誤的概念什麼超增啊這都是錯誤的概念啊我希望以後不要聽到這樣的概念不要聽到這樣的錯誤的用法"},{"start":4011.897,"end":4030.505,"text":"任何一塊錢的稅因為中華民國是租稅法定主義他收每一塊錢的稅都必須有法律的依據所以沒有超增問題只有預算時增數大於預算數的問題因為預算是一個估計那你把它估得保守的時候"},{"start":4031.485,"end":4059.318,"text":"自然就造成了你的時收數會高於預算數那有人利用這個名詞的字換什麼超增啊就要你還稅於民他要還稅的對象也不是真正繳稅的人所以他都是用一些錯誤的東西在裡面搞其實那個歷史那個原因是很很久以前而且很複雜啦所以是希望你在編列預算的時候要協助財政部不能讓他過於保守坦白講如果今天"},{"start":4060.891,"end":4073.89,"text":"收到的稅率是預算出的98%、99%大家也是很滿意啊哪有每一年都一定要百分之一百多一百一十幾這樣子的數目所以這一點是希望能夠努力的啦"},{"start":4074.69,"end":4095.645,"text":"第二 很多的考驗很大像現在在野黨因為他們利用國會多數加上民眾黨加在一起就變成一個多數的狀況他給你出很多招我舉一個例子財政收支發文法現在已經送到本委員會在進行審查了"},{"start":4097.967,"end":4124.486,"text":"那就現在的版本統計有的要把中央政府裡面的五千億六千億拿過去地方政府最少的也有兩三千億那如果這個版本被通過你有什麼打算你的中央政府的現在的稅出一年今年如果今年對我來講是兩兆八千億一口氣把你砍了六千億你會剩下兩兆兩千億那你要怎麼因應"},{"start":4126.149,"end":4149.104,"text":"是當然因為財政收支發分法的一個修正是財政部主導那第二個這涉及到的層面很複雜但是如果以各縣市來講他都希望能夠財政自主然後財政自主能夠有所提升如果以前我以台南市政府的立場我都是希望說我能夠分配到更多的財政收支發分的一個財源"},{"start":4149.864,"end":4158.411,"text":"你講的這個是水平分配的部分我現在是要跟你談垂直分配的部分他從中央政府花了6000億你中央政府如果支應你中央政府不會沒有辦法支應這個財政的這個窟窿嗎因為資源是有限的啊又不是無限的"},{"start":4175.384,"end":4202.42,"text":"所以我們財政收支劃分法因為涉及到各縣市要去徵這個財源的部分所以它本身是非常的複雜那但是我們如果這財政收支劃分法當初沒有修正我們在中央的部分呢我們大部分會利用所謂統統分配稅的一個劃分之外呢那我們也會利用一般性的補助一般性的補助來做調劑一個營需你講的這個前面都講過財政部也講過我現在是問你因為他們現在國會多數喔"},{"start":4208.326,"end":4222.262,"text":"昨天你有看到立法院的院會嗎?他們要硬幹什麼東西都可以做啊那我說萬一發生這樣的狀況你要如何因應我不是在跟你討論財政收支劃分法的這個原理這個大家都知道嘛在這邊那麼久了"},{"start":4222.742,"end":4247.076,"text":"是那如果說我們真的減少將近6000億的一個裁員的話那將來那將來第一個我們在中央我們沒有調劑營需的一個能力因為為什麼那第二個我們減少的裁員的部分呢我們勢必也必須要減少一般性補助或包括計劃型補助相對對縣市的一個補助因為不然的話你連儲備預算這方面都會有"},{"start":4248.217,"end":4248.457,"text":"是這樣的"},{"start":4276.547,"end":4300.527,"text":"好 這個事情我是要先提醒你 你要預先想 是再來 現在有號稱乾坑法案 譬如說環島高速鐵路建設特別條例 花東快速公路建設特別條例 國道6號東沿花蓮建設特別條例據交通部的統計 這三個案如果通過要支應的預算是兩兆元 你有這個錢嗎"},{"start":4302.912,"end":4306.344,"text":"財政是數證之母他用法律給你規定要2兆元你有辦法嗎"},{"start":4308.784,"end":4334.123,"text":"其實跟委員報告就是說我們原則上我們一般重大建設計畫原則上大概都是要先做可行性的評估各種效益的一個評估那除此之外呢我們也會要提到國發會來做一個審議啦那審定之後才來做決定說要不要去做興建那這個案子金額大的部分呢"},{"start":4334.944,"end":4362.66,"text":"如果說這個建設有它的必要經過審查那到底是要怎麼籌措財源也必須要去共同去研商啦也並不是說每個案子我都跟他抵觸而不是但是我們就是說看他的需要但是是要由各部會來研提計畫然後送國發會來審議然後再做那個那整個也必須要做整體財源的一個分配因為我的財源大部分如果以114年初步提"},{"start":4363.34,"end":4388.256,"text":"你認知的都是應該這樣做但是本院現在是講力量不講道理的地方啊你跟他講道理他用力量跟你表決你要怎麼樣我是問你這個問題啊我不是問你說到底應該要怎麼做我也知道這不合理啊沒有經過環境影響評估也沒有經過交通部的這個規劃什麼東西都沒有都沒有調查他就是要跟你立法"},{"start":4389.844,"end":4399.281,"text":"不是只有這個還沒有立法完成的捏已經要現在再二讀就要審議的原住民保留地禁法補償條例這有非常多錢啊那你要怎麼因應啊"},{"start":4403.646,"end":4431.859,"text":"按預算程序它一定的財源就一定所以我一般我就說你如果說我稅低估的部分那我在支出方面我就要排擠我就要排列優先順序哪些要列我優先所以在資源的分配上它一定是要排列優先順序但是如果說你這法定了那就會排擠其他很多重大的一個建設那所以這個部分我們也必須要審慎來討論就是說這個案子它的可行性如何"},{"start":4433.616,"end":4453.366,"text":"對那聽起來就是也不知道怎麼無法因應嘛他硬要錢啊那你不給第一個講法說你欺負花蓮人啊花蓮人的建設東部難道不重要嗎那第二個講法就是你瞧不起原住民嗎建法補償啊這原住民該要照顧的啊都會扣上這種帽子"},{"start":4456.728,"end":4482.699,"text":"本席的小時候我出生地是臺東臺東能建設我當然很高興但是要量力而為那如果一個立委的選區花蓮他就可以要到兩兆的建設經費那我新莊就不是人嗎郭國文他們台南就不是人嗎那每一個立委選區都要兩兆那這樣全部的73個區域立委多少錢啊"},{"start":4485.513,"end":4512.823,"text":"那有什麼辦法可以支應不然就印錢喔讓全國都是貨幣貶值啊所以這個事情即將要到了行政院要有統一的思考因為行政院所有花錢的支出都在經過你的手啦是所以你應該要很認真的跟這件事情跟院的一層喔要好好的來商討這個事情要如何準備好不好加油啊我們會願意是"},{"start":4514.389,"end":4515.37,"text":"謝謝吳秉瑞委員的諮詢下一位請郭國文委員謝謝主席 有請主計長"},{"start":4543.925,"end":4567.401,"text":"主計長你好很開心在這邊遇見你我們算是老朋友了那我有幾個問題想要就教於您我想你現在擔任的這個主計長的角色當中非常的關鍵也就是說你要掌握住明年的預算而明年的預算如何落實賴總統的這個政見在預算編列當中就要有所考量"},{"start":4568.241,"end":4592.364,"text":"有些政見內容是屬於蔡英文總統政策的延續性像長照3.0或者社會住宅2.0還有一些屬於世代總統的新興的政見也要有新興的計畫來進行各部會的部分你是不是已經有所掌握明年的這些相關的政見的落實的可能性你內心有沒有譜了"},{"start":4595.034,"end":4595.054,"text":"市長"},{"start":4604.127,"end":4604.307,"text":"藍總統政見落實?"},{"start":4635.108,"end":4642.932,"text":"如果假設這個法還沒有通過之前呢你是不是已經有所掌握了畢竟還沒有發生嘛你趁還沒有發生之前趕快處理嘛"},{"start":4644.072,"end":4670.371,"text":"這個部分對於賴總統的一個政見的部分呢那各部會都已經有提出各項的一個方案那這個方案的部分那我們初估我們在4月底我們也分給各部會有一相關的一個金額額度然後請他們優先在這額度裡面去做調整資應那再來如果說我也就是說賴總統的政見的需求的預算已經有請他們調整資應對所以該調整的該調整該資應的資應"},{"start":4672.632,"end":4699.385,"text":"那錢的這個空間有沒有比稍微要增加多少特別是哪個部分能不能透露一下需要花比較多錢的部分因為資源的一個分配呢它必須有它的一個優先順序那當然六大的一個政見裡面它大部分很多都很重要但是問題還是有優先順序所以現在原則上大部分初估的一個金額是照以去年的一個額度像我們"},{"start":4700.225,"end":4729.105,"text":"公共建設計畫的部分原則上依照去年的額度先河給他但是公共建設計畫很多的一個計畫是今年到了付款的高峰期那付款的高峰期那你很多就必須要支付所以你這個部分公共建設計畫到底他支付的部分我們必須要去細算所以我現在我也沒辦法告訴你說大概他會提高多少但是我們要必須就是說針對各項必須支付的要優先之應的來排列優先順序"},{"start":4729.465,"end":4753.207,"text":"你現在討論的你講的都是原則你都沒有透露任何內容我就問你說你知道透露內容都不行不是因為原則上內容就是跟各位就政見上你認為就優先順序帶總統優先順序當中最重要是哪一個嗎但是現在基本額度給他的就是以去年的額度為主還是去年的額度為基準來做調整可是那新的政見落實要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4753.507,"end":4753.867,"text":"你現在講都是原則啦"},{"start":4769.717,"end":4798.622,"text":"但是我剛剛覺得吳秉樂委員提醒的那一點真的非常重要如果財法法現在如果通過的話我剛剛聽到你的講法是說你現在呢有可能就是在計劃型補助跟一般性的補助來做一個調整嘛因為計劃型跟一般性的補助的話從112年度的話大概8682億啦在今年的話應該會超過9000億這兩年我評估起來地方政府大概短差大概500億啦我是認為地方政府的部分短差500億以上你要優先解決啦優先解決這是真的要思考不然的話他們不是舉債不然就賣土地啊"},{"start":4799.783,"end":4824.863,"text":"這對社會問題都造成一些負面的影響這個部分我建議這樣子如果說在野黨要求這個的話他們要解決地方問題的話應該先把這個問題先處理好但是第二個部分呢如果他們過度調高的話你現在手頭上可以做調整的是一般性的補助有2121億各部分的補助有2300億但手頭上大概你用計畫型跟一般型大概4500億也就是說如果他拿到太多的統籌分配卡你就會用4500億來做彈性的處理嘛對不對你還是有辦法嘛"},{"start":4828.666,"end":4851.669,"text":"因為一般性補助呢就是去調劑縣市的營需嘛那當然因為有一些縣市它實在是稅數稅數差的很大你又限原則要去填補那第二個呢計劃型補助的部分因為計劃型每個計劃它補助的比例不一定反正你就是有招就是了它如果統籌會不會給你拿比較多你一般的跟計劃型的你就要給它少一點嘛對不對"},{"start":4852.33,"end":4874.532,"text":"關於中央政府怎麼運作你來總統的政見如何落實他用另外一種方式來跟你杯葛把你整個預算稍微幫你處理掉那你怎麼玩亂不下去嘛 對不對所以你還是得因應這個問題嘛那第二個部分呢我是認為不是中央跟地方因為中央橫向的部分還是有負跟貧啦現實上貧負差距還是非常的大我倒是覺得台灣現在的預算"},{"start":4876.294,"end":4876.354,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4901.204,"end":4929.634,"text":"如果說現階段的話南北平衡有問題現在嚴格來說北高平衡相對沒有問題反而是北南南北出現很大問題這一點我要請主計長你要特別注意一下這個部份的這個交通預算的部份要去怎麼配置的部份應該跟相關的單位弄清楚前端計畫接下來五期沒有的時候後面的公共預算怎麼編這些呢後來呢玩到的後來呢沒有辦法"},{"start":4930.675,"end":4933.558,"text":"沒有辦法取得前瞻計畫你要怎麼處理 主席長"},{"start":4935.675,"end":4962.409,"text":"像一般前瞻計畫因為到後面只剩下703億再來就沒有那個但是如果說等於本來放在前瞻計畫的部分將來勢必要回歸啦回歸到一般的預算公務預算上面去那所以是不是能夠容納這麼大一個那個額度的一個深這個我們就必須要資源的分配的部分就要很大的一個我就是要請你想辦法"},{"start":4963.029,"end":4963.189,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4980.903,"end":5005.084,"text":"我就再救教你一個問題好了因為本席台南你也是從台南出生嘛台南的部分呢基本上這一個內部還有一個城鄉差距的問題農村人口外移以空污率來計算的話越偏鄉是越嚴重但是這個問題呢在農業部的部分呢他需要透過農債基金可是農債基金到今年2月為止剩下不到500億他原來是1500億要推動第四期的計畫"},{"start":5006.045,"end":5030.141,"text":"過去農業部的部分有農民的福利農業的這個政策的調整差別現在農村的一個重造農村的重造農災基金就非常的關鍵現在到農村的這個重化農村如果沒有重化的話那人口一定會勢必再流失也就這個部分能不能請主計長把這個資金的這個規模一來把它先填補二來把它提高的可能性有沒有可能"},{"start":5032.06,"end":5041.773,"text":"融債基金的部分本來就是說一般我們是坦白說我們沒有閒錢去放在那裡但是如果他現在能夠支應將來我們是他實際的一個財務狀況來去做撥補"},{"start":5046.84,"end":5049.903,"text":"總不如等到見底吧 主席長你知道嗎 一般的水位很重要維持 不然我們勞保財務基金為什麼一直要維持900億的原因在哪裡"},{"start":5072.262,"end":5073.303,"text":"總體來說為什麼我特別你總體討論這個應該優先考量我本期提醒你"},{"start":5091.846,"end":5116.317,"text":"整個農委會提升為農業部之後我去換算整個預算結構52%加29%加一般的支出跟一個義務型的支出加起來就超過八成他真的能夠用在新興計畫大概不到兩成升格為一千五百多億到一千六百多億其實微乎其微講白一點關鍵還是在預算所以如何要改造我是覺得這個部分很重要"},{"start":5117.277,"end":5133.768,"text":"最後一個部分剛剛有幾位委員有提到確實我們經濟成長率第一季的時候超乎預期原來是3.43現在變6.51這是好現象但是您的報告書當中我也特別看到你有提到說那個總薪資率有提升但是一般我們在看的都是看實質"},{"start":5134.949,"end":5140.615,"text":"經常性薪資其實經常性薪資是減少的也就是說我們看到的經濟成長就一直攀升我們看到物價一直高最近CPI雖然有盪下來可是對壽星階級來說老實講內心的壓力非常的沉痛為什麼整體經濟成長的時候我們沒有被分享到有相關的數字以後有機會我會給你但是我只是做一個最後一個建議"},{"start":5157.693,"end":5185.535,"text":"審計部這個部分我有要求他7月的時候提出一個專題低薪改變的一個專案報告你有沒有可能針對這個問題來提出一個報告出來因為其實齁我們不看經常性薪資因為一般公司如果有賺錢他在弘麗啊在那個不是看這個問題我是不是說整體低薪的報告我不要跟你辯論這個啦我應該跟你辯論統計數字哪一個比較重要重點是你有沒有提出一個報告站在一個主計處的一個高位當中相關的預算的配置在你身上你有沒有可能提出一個報告來看到這個問題啦"},{"start":5186.755,"end":5187.796,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家早"},{"start":5216.025,"end":5239.467,"text":"主席我想請主計總處陳淑姿來主計長請主計長恭喜喔是謝謝你恭喜恭喜那我想主計長先前也擔任過台南市的主計長那"},{"start":5243.285,"end":5247.331,"text":"對這個業務都非常熟悉來面對預算的編審跟執行監督還有各項數據統計應該會更加的謹慎也會呈現出最真實的數據給我們人民"},{"start":5254.299,"end":5271.665,"text":"一百一十二年度中央政府總預算實際執行結果稅出稅入剩餘新台幣兩千七百九十億那扣除債務還本一千兩百六十億還有上有這個收支剩餘一千五百三十億這是連續七年來總決算"},{"start":5274.746,"end":5295.373,"text":"稅出稅入都有剩餘那主席長有錢是好事啦但是為什麼這計出來錢要拿去還債就是還債嘛但是問題是說為什麼都會剩餘這麼多是不是一開始一開始在編列的時候就不夠精確你可以幫我們說明一下嗎"},{"start":5297.481,"end":5324.927,"text":"它主要是因為它稅入有超收啦稅入有超收這個部分那這個稅入超收其實我們一百一十一和一百一十二一百三一百一十三都有做調整有調整增略了將近也是將近四千億但是實際執行的結果它還是稅收的一個情況還是很好所以這個部分就會有一個就是每年都超增了連續三年超增了1.29兆"},{"start":5327.108,"end":5331.592,"text":"目前有幾項國內長期還有重大的議題包括屏幕差距、薪資、租屋補貼、長照、地方建設等等從4月份開始各機關政府開始編列明年度的預算"},{"start":5352.301,"end":5352.641,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5372.415,"end":5379.036,"text":"臺灣30年前的0.47到110年的0.60財富分配不均的情況持續擴大那主計處前一陣子的這個國富統計報告也顯示說最富跟最窮的家庭資產規模相差66.9倍等於是70倍"},{"start":5402.04,"end":5402.241,"text":"財政委員會議"},{"start":5413.939,"end":5439.377,"text":"那把財富重新分配給社會上的弱勢族群用很多種方法比如說租屋補貼育兒津貼中低收入戶的補貼或者是長照的支出但是我認為說我們臺灣的一個資本機制不夠也不夠完整那所以比如說以上市櫃這些高階主管跟基層的一個倍數持續擴大"},{"start":5440.979,"end":5464.87,"text":"來做一個舉例目前能無法避免所以我想要請教主計長臺灣的貧富差距持續擴大我們要怎麼做難道說只能放任這樣的情況一直在一直在擴張然後讓有錢的人持續透過這些炒房啊炒會啊這樣子的方式然後把這些貧富差距拉得更開嗎還有沒有什麼其他的辦法"},{"start":5466.216,"end":5486.799,"text":"事實上我們提出這個所謂的那個家庭財務的一個所的報告那這個裡面呢因為當初30年前他是用國庫調查那現在我們是利用那個一些一個我們現在的一個家庭收支的一個調查然後連同大數據"},{"start":5487.74,"end":5487.9,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5509.984,"end":5530.989,"text":"一百一十三年那我們在社會福利相關的一個支出方面就達到七千八百九十七億元所以等於是說我們可能要透過很多的一個對於比較中低收入戶的一個家庭的一個補助那一轉性的收入來改變來改變他當中的一個這一個"},{"start":5532.889,"end":5537.99,"text":"各家庭和五分位的一個差距是6.05到6.15那所以我們大部分如果透過一些我們社會福利相關的措施就能夠降低這些的一個差距"},{"start":5560.936,"end":5579.545,"text":"那事實上如果說以每個人薪資的所得的一個差距其實是3.93那我們再透過這一個各方面的一個努力大部分也是都會大力降低所以我們當然是希望能夠貧富差距能夠逐漸來縮小經過政府的一些的一個措施的一個辦理"},{"start":5580.427,"end":5599.884,"text":"措施要有效因為人民是如果措施無效或者是數據冰冷的數字是民眾無感收入減少然後成本持續提高我最關心的其實就是收入啦現在國人的收入其實M型社會那"},{"start":5601.863,"end":5621.392,"text":"112年全年每人每月總薪資平均是58545但是我們都知道相對於平均數我們這其實沒什麼意義看中位數好了中位數它能呈現出真實的狀況剔除物價的因素全年實質經常性薪資是41334"},{"start":5625.173,"end":5647.471,"text":"年減0.05%是連續三年負成長重點就是收入負成長這是正確的那實際總收入是53,189元年減1.04%也是七年來的負成長首次的負成長那臺灣薪資漲得慢那但是租金房價物價"},{"start":5649.312,"end":5673.007,"text":"這個就不用我來形容了那這是民眾最不滿的部分那我想這部分也是本席最關心的那我想請教就是說受薪組的部分這個收入短掃以及這個物價通膨通膨的這個越來越大那主計長有沒有什麼有效的作為這第一個部分那再來就是說"},{"start":5673.968,"end":5695,"text":"租屋補貼通過租屋補貼、社福支出、育兒津貼、中低收入戶的補助、長照支出將財富重新分配到社會上比較弱勢的部分建議在社福制度完善的情況下才會奏效"},{"start":5698.04,"end":5714.362,"text":"租金補貼的部分到現在明明是一個好的政策但是卻一堆人領不到如果主計長還有各位官員你們不相信的話你們去網路上面這些社團或者是租屋網去查看看就知道"},{"start":5715.492,"end":5732.371,"text":"很多房東就擺明了就是說你不能用租屋補貼不能用租屋補貼反倒是租屋補貼可以租到的房子還要感謝回過頭來要來感謝房東的一個好像一個感謝房東的施捨那個概念"},{"start":5734.312,"end":5747.96,"text":"這應該不是我們在設定政策的一個初衷原本租金可能是一萬二但是因為如果要申請租屋補貼他就用技巧性的把房租調漲變一萬四一萬五"},{"start":5750.902,"end":5772.144,"text":"那我想租入市場是這樣子那這個制定政策還有我們要推動這個政策民眾的抱怨只會更多沒有更少不會減少那這樣子的部分代表這個政策還有很多需要檢討的部分那這個可不可以請主計長說明一下有沒有什麼因應"},{"start":5773.759,"end":5791.346,"text":"因為其實我們這個是提供數據的一個參考然後實際執行的一個相關的部會他跟像措施如果有不完善的需要檢討的部分我們也會轉達請各部會針對這個部分能夠來做一些檢討因為有時候涉及到比較細項的一個執行的細節"},{"start":5792.987,"end":5815.22,"text":"那可能要各部會再深入去了解因為有時候它在規範的時候可能都是規範屬於大的原則在執行細項的時候會遭遇到哪些的困難或者是申請的時候會有什麼哪些的遭遇的阻礙那這個部分呢應該如何來免除那這個部分我們也會轉達給相關的單位然後讓他來做一些的改進的一個措施"},{"start":5816.14,"end":5839.205,"text":"主委長我在這邊跟主委長提一下因為我們在上一次到臺中市那主委總處這邊還有省紀部都有派員參加一個地方建設的考察那特別是去看了臺中市的捷運南線還有海線的雙軌高架的部分那雙軌高架的部分那它現在"},{"start":5841.427,"end":5856.444,"text":"現場考察的時候國發會有表示說目前的評估目前的評估只剩下主計總處還沒有審議完成還沒有審議完成這部分我要請主計長因為你剛上任所以這部分我要提醒你說因為台中市是"},{"start":5857.245,"end":5883.243,"text":"目前人口第二多的城市對於不管是捷運南線不管是海線雙軌高架鐵路捷運化的部分都對台中市的整體發展非常的重要也不只是台中因為不管是旅外的這些從北部或高雄來到台中洽工或者在台中工作租屋買房還有這些的部分都會受惠那所以"},{"start":5883.883,"end":5906.12,"text":"既然國發會這一邊他說只剩下主計總處的審議還沒有提出這個評估報告剩下主計處這一邊那主計處可不可以總處這邊可不可以盡速的來完成這個這項事項是跟委員報告還有還有就是要提高補助的能夠支援台中市政府的補助因為我跟你講齁"},{"start":5907.661,"end":5934.758,"text":"臺中市雖然被政府列為二級的財政是相對比較好但是因為財政相對比較好所以變成說臺中市自籌的部分都要比其他縣市更高這樣子就相對於說好像在懲罰好學生稅收高他的這個臺中市的治理跟這個城市的管理或許是比較好但是問題這樣子他的預算"},{"start":5935.638,"end":5936.018,"text":"賴慧媛委員"},{"start":5966.062,"end":5966.423,"text":"有請我們的主計處處長陳處長"},{"start":5979.855,"end":5981.376,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":5997.722,"end":6026.658,"text":"可是看起來就是說央行開著這一台車那你是央行的眼睛可是如果央行沒有有一個很精準的一個眼睛的話那他的勢力如果不夠好的話主計處的勢力那他提供給他的一個數據如果是不夠精準的時候相對的就是說央行在整體的一個貨幣政策他可能會失準"},{"start":6027.518,"end":6034.603,"text":"所以主計長你的主計處非常非常的重要不知道你有沒有同感"},{"start":6037.521,"end":6061.818,"text":"責任很重大那在之前有很多的一個委員一直在告訴你就是說為什麼這個CPI這個通盤這個跟大家就是民眾的一個體感差距那麼大那當然就是說由地方政府呈報上來的給主計處他其實是有落差的那為什麼會有落差"},{"start":6062.619,"end":6062.839,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6078.254,"end":6095.464,"text":"我們已經就是反映就是這個店家要調整了可是4月份的CPI上漲1.95 遠低於3月份那為什麼會有這樣的一個情形不升緩降呢為什麼我想聽聽主計長你對這一個這個店會的一個看法"},{"start":6098.866,"end":6121.401,"text":"因為事實上電費它是4月才調漲才調漲那這一個部分我們4月份公布的是1.95那所以它會反映在5月份的一個CPI那我們整年預估大概是1.85但是整個一個如果影響率應該是一整年會影響大概約0.024左右那這樣"},{"start":6126.384,"end":6138.995,"text":"加上去的話大概會變成如果說4月到8月的一個影響它會變成如果說用1.85這樣來算再加上影響數應該是0.18左右這樣就會變成2.03就是不會維持原來的1.85是這樣子"},{"start":6146.516,"end":6172.447,"text":"那本身這個你說這個CPI是不是真的能夠真實反映大家的一個通膨的壓力那因為整個CPI它的像數360幾像那這個部分如果因為有一些是屬於比較沒有敏感的有一些是比較敏感的所以大家針對敏感的一個項目它就會影響覺得影響很大但事實上有一些其實是它會沒有感覺"},{"start":6175.828,"end":6175.928,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6192.429,"end":6210.138,"text":"主計長其實他的一個看法也是一致的那時候他也知道就是說電價可能是會調漲那怎麼樣讓這一個CBI的數據更貼近民眾的感覺我覺得我們如果從中央"},{"start":6210.858,"end":6237.808,"text":"中央的一個政府是不是可以跟地方縣市政府的統計數據可以就是有一個一致性剛才那個顏委員也講到了他說他臺中基本上他臺中市政府他的一個稅收是比較好的他是好學生那相對的台南市他不是壞學生他是一個窮苦的學生那窮苦的學生他報上去給你的其實我們不見得就是說我們的"},{"start":6238.248,"end":6238.468,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6263.325,"end":6285.311,"text":"不公平的地方可是真正的一個問題我個人倒是有一個看法就是說目前就是有多少人在做這些查房那各地的物價漲幅當然是一定不同那如何以地方政府的一個制度你去做這樣的一個政策因為我一再的強調說你就是央行的眼睛"},{"start":6286.011,"end":6312.225,"text":"你是央行的眼睛這個央行他的政策的一個制定對你提供數據來講的話是非常重要的那如果你的訪查眼是明顯不足的時候那該怎麼辦呢那你沒有辦法做出真實性準確性的時候你的QA QC做出來的都是其實跟民眾的差距都是這麼遠的那你看喔我用一個簡單的就是說"},{"start":6313.246,"end":6339.62,"text":"我們黃豬這個黃豬大家有很多委員也一直在提這個問題黃價其實一直漲一直漲可是黃豬的這個指數年增率相對的一個平穩我們從這個數字裡頭去看它那為什麼會是呈現這樣的一個狀況因為你們的訪查員你們是調查你是調查黃柯還是那個黃東"},{"start":6341.328,"end":6361.751,"text":"主計長你知道這些黃茶園是調查黃東還是黃客黃客黃東都有沒有只有黃東有而已只有黃東有當然也不是兩個都有啦對不起兩個都有可是問題就是說他其實基本上是失準的為什麼"},{"start":6362.532,"end":6377.263,"text":"因為其實現行的一個做法就是黃東提供的一個計算的一個數據還有黃克提供的一個計算的數據其實是有一個落差的我們看到的就是說"},{"start":6378.755,"end":6395.149,"text":"主計總處在111年的那個報告指出就是黃豬的一個指數你私有的住宅樣本才一千一千兩百戶那就是社會住宅的樣本有一點四萬戶為什麼會是有這樣的一個差距我跟你講主計長"},{"start":6396.009,"end":6411.578,"text":"最主要就是社會住宅的資料好拿嘛你私有的一個住宅不好拿嘛那你怎麼樣來看就是說現行的一個調查方式沒有辦法反映真實的房租的一個狀況在你的認知裡頭你怎麼看待這個問題呢"},{"start":6413.655,"end":6427.465,"text":"其實我們一般調查的話如果是在房租調查我們裡面會抽房東四分之一然後房客抽四分之三那一般調查的戶數大概都是有1400戶左右這樣子"},{"start":6430.368,"end":6438.916,"text":"這一個部分呢因為如果說你實際訪查的數據有一些會偏低譬如說黃東他會以多報少這樣的一個狀況或者是說沒有辦法真實呈現但是我們在"},{"start":6444.801,"end":6460.572,"text":"主計總處他還會去參考一些大數據相關的一個數據來做一個調整那所以並不是說各縣市調查出來的一個數據我們就直接呈現不是我們還會做一些和專家學者去做一個討論然後把相關的一些數據做調整是這樣子是"},{"start":6463.033,"end":6477.956,"text":"主計長以你在地方的一個主計處的一個工作經驗是不是可以非常明顯的感受出來就是地方政府他其實在處理主計的一個業務量的人力其實是不夠的"},{"start":6479.734,"end":6508.341,"text":"對事實上是這樣子因為統計調查人員的部分呢他是必須要很專業然後有一些必須要有訪問的技巧才能夠真正的訪問一般又有說像家庭收支他涉及到的是一些機密的資料所以他機敏的資料所以你要去問人家你必須要要很好的一個技巧所以他這個統計調查人員都不需要訓練所以他一般平常他都是各縣市我們會有主計處直接直接統計調查人員大概有"},{"start":6508.741,"end":6508.941,"text":"臺南市政府"},{"start":6528.857,"end":6539.534,"text":"因為以台南市它來講它是兼任統計調查員不是它統計調查員是有22個啦那兼任的它大概有40個左右你看那是明顯的不足"},{"start":6542.634,"end":6571.608,"text":"事實啊,精神調查也40個,然後他還有一些案件按之計酬的,然後本身我們自己主計處的統計人員也會投入人力是這麼少啦,要做的項目這麼多啦,還有就是荒華,荒華事實上就是說黃東的一個調查數,然後還有黃克的一個調查數明顯我跟你講,你進去的數據是不對的,然後是失準的,你出來的答案也是失準的"},{"start":6572.088,"end":6593.873,"text":"所以說你要提供給就是那個央行的時候這樣子就變成非常非常的吃虧了所以我個人持的態度是嚴有頭債有主啦主計處不應該就是因為通貨膨脹而被責罵這個是央行的責任不過我倒是想問主計長你知道那個臺北的蚵仔麵線一萬多"},{"start":6597.677,"end":6623.405,"text":"你一定要去吃啊,你才會知道大碗一碗多少?因為我那天去士林夜市才問過而已啦我跟你講,你不只在夜市吃,你在一般的商店尤其是西門町,你也要去吃這個是非常重要的,應該大碗不會那麼便宜"},{"start":6624.915,"end":6642.182,"text":"大碗不會那麼便宜所以就是說你要非常深刻的去體察民意然後對這一個物價指數我跟你講台北什麼都貴啊比我們台南真的是差距太多了我想更細緻更貼切真實的一個CPI的一個數字"},{"start":6643.522,"end":6667.327,"text":"我們把它用其他的一個方式各種的一個方式把它換算出來你才可以有效的協助央行做好最好的一個貨幣的一個政策然後增加統計數字透明度跟真實性我想真實的反映通膨的一個這個跟民間的一個體感這個是我對那個主計總處的一個要求也是一個拜託好謝謝"},{"start":6668.707,"end":6669.127,"text":"有請陳主計長"},{"start":6699.042,"end":6722.445,"text":"委員好你好早喔是早那我想大概很多委員對你都一定必問的題目啦GDP啊 CPI啊今年的GDP你們大概預估多少台積業說3.2多啦那我看總額大概3.5差不多這個數字是今年"},{"start":6723.564,"end":6723.944,"text":"本來預測是3.43%"},{"start":6753.864,"end":6754.805,"text":"蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":6779.775,"end":6800.084,"text":"同樣的會連帶的影響到GDP啊第一個齁因為如果說能不能先回答這問題是定價長對GDP是加還是減你要告訴我這點應該是負面的啦負面的啦因為第一個他會增加成本嘛是那我們看總薪是七年來開始"},{"start":6804.883,"end":6815.917,"text":"臺灣你會發現到說我們一直講經濟成長法戰度法戰股市又創新高兩萬多點可是造成的是富者越富窮者越窮這個主計長應該都"},{"start":6820.519,"end":6836.979,"text":"應該同意我的說法嗎?報告委員,實質總薪資我是正成長啦,因為我是七萬兩千多嘛那這是經常性的薪資,如果換算那個物價指數的一個調整率之後他是在實質薪資總成長0.88啦"},{"start":6842.287,"end":6845.509,"text":"主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告：完整會議"},{"start":6871.432,"end":6897.719,"text":"過去的預算是編給他上一任的部長用的他能不能調整啊我問你可不可以調整我們現在是這樣我們4月你不能調整你告訴我我們4月30我們有發一個函就是給他一個額度但是在什麼額度就是說初步出核的額度然後再來就是說我會請他在6月中旬的時候針對調整的計畫要報上來是這樣子嘿"},{"start":6900.94,"end":6927.587,"text":"現在有幾個部位跟你報上來要調整我們到6月中旬所以都還沒有6月20目前都還沒有對還沒有所以我們也給各黨現在有一個單位叫速發部或者速衛部都可以是他的國外禮位啊3萬了原來編3千7百萬領土不算了齁我們把他立法院砍了6百萬剩3千1百萬"},{"start":6929.38,"end":6957.962,"text":"但是他編的這是出國費用喔國外旅費喔這個呢等下出去2188人次他總共283個人每一個人一年要出差七點七天啦這個唐鳳原部長前部長編的現在的部長啊姓黃是不是他都說他不要出國啦"},{"start":6959.127,"end":6968.394,"text":"他這個地方在砍請問他可不可以把這個錢挪到其他單位來用你告訴我可不可以主計長這裏的專業有這裏的專業有"},{"start":6975.694,"end":7000.293,"text":"第一個如果說出國計畫它相關的一個同一個工作計畫它是可以做調整但是不同工作計畫是不可以調整的是這樣子來我先跟你講喔預算法63條定很清楚經過立法院如果刪減的話就不得留用所以這裡面有一個矛盾地方在這裡新的部長來了他不認同這一筆的一個出國費用"},{"start":7001.834,"end":7016.731,"text":"他要把他挪到其他地方來用他覺得他不應該出國這麼多他還看到外界批評很多說這個數位部等於出國部、旅遊部所以他把他他說我沒這麼緊可能砍一半砍三分之一砍三分之二"},{"start":7018.049,"end":7035.004,"text":"好了那問題預算法63條你不能動啊不能留用啊法定在這裡啊主計長你旁邊的給你校長沒用啊這裡法在這裡不能留用你出不了國你不要出國你就乖乖腳褲對吧這樣對吧"},{"start":7036.485,"end":7055.174,"text":"第一個流用的規範他有分第一個用途別不得流用的一個項目我跟妳講預算法六三條三減以後不得流用阿三減以後不得流用一般三減以後他不會用什麼意思就是說你被三減的預算他本來變成3100萬那3100萬的部分呢他是就3100萬去做執行阿"},{"start":7065.981,"end":7090.516,"text":"這只要花一千萬啦可能啊你知道我意思嗎他還是嫌多現在新的部長就這樣啊不是 他是你三減的這個計劃裡面你在這個計劃依照預算法規定它在整個計劃裡面它是可以整體調整流用的預算法六三條講假的喔不是預算法六三條經過立法院三減不得流用啊"},{"start":7091.952,"end":7105.611,"text":"這很清楚的啊我刪減又不得不得留用啊不是通刪的部分它是依照規定是可以的什麼空單就是如果是屬於通刪通利刪減的部分這不是通刪欸"},{"start":7109.115,"end":7123.003,"text":"這不是通山你搞清楚這因為那時候不分黨派大家就很討厭唐鳳把這個錢三六百萬啦是這樣子的不是通山啦不是通山OK主計長要進入狀況你不知道嗎這不是通山我告訴你不是通山"},{"start":7133.573,"end":7146.96,"text":"同山是固定多少這是另外再刪的在委員會裡面刪掉的刪600萬不是同山你回去查一下有結果告訴我再來看那個前瞻5期"},{"start":7155.834,"end":7156.575,"text":"原則上應該是八月底啦"},{"start":7176.617,"end":7195.373,"text":"因為項目原則上其實當初都有定下來啦所以現在大概就是說會針對有一些譬如說要支付的一個項目會不會左政府上來以後來政府上來左政府會不會編一個前瞻奧廷年會不會"},{"start":7199.3,"end":7213.343,"text":"這個部分要探院你的整個政策還沒有聽到我是有聽到這個聲音你們要編一個簽證要聽聽我們希望你帳門管好這個錢不要亂花不用特別預算財政紀律要顧好最後一個問題你第一次來"},{"start":7226.131,"end":7234.871,"text":"這個奇怪的名人有什麼好理這都台南的呢主席的台南的 旁邊底下的台南的 喔 大家很怕你叫我很怕你叫我阿妹的"},{"start":7237.382,"end":7256.648,"text":"來 謝謝委員那你要對我就提供老實提供資料open data其實主計處主計總處很多資料都很寶貴但是你給的資料都不好用Excel資料都不好用open data你知道什麼叫open data你硬卡會主委做過門"},{"start":7261.26,"end":7277.232,"text":"就現在不是不僅僅只有你政府的單位所提供的資料都不能夠解鎖都是這樣給你啊很難用的啦很難用的所以你們不能在這裡公開承諾"},{"start":7278.789,"end":7296.847,"text":"我們主計總處以後提供的資料給我們委的資料都是可以全面確認解鎖這樣我們找起來就方便了一看 喔 什麼地方限制這個停車場啦什麼地方有 什麼地方有喔 什麼地方浪費不太清楚可不可以來 你告訴我"},{"start":7297.928,"end":7325.721,"text":"那事實上呢我們送立法院提案的一個相關的一個資料庫我們都有依照規定來公開啦在機關的網站裡面那如果說我們要如果要供外界來加值使用我們也是有一些資料有做開放用open data來開放那但是如果說要有一些民眾查詢要這個我們還是要再回去研議評估啦我告訴你一個事情"},{"start":7326.741,"end":7339.834,"text":"在去年的時候朱主席長前任的朱主席長他就同意了他說今年要給我今年要提供給我們的都是可以retrieval就是可以檢索"},{"start":7341.75,"end":7343.171,"text":"主計總處提供的資料都可以全文檢索"},{"start":7361.067,"end":7361.207,"text":"這個留記錄了"},{"start":7377.377,"end":7394.708,"text":"9月底主計總處提供給立委的資料open data都可以retrieval就是可以檢索這個非常重要各位注意看他提供資料都非常寶貴但是不好用那現在9月底以後可以好用謝謝"},{"start":8071.557,"end":8071.778,"text":"主席陳主計長"},{"start":8095.509,"end":8116.452,"text":"委員好主計長好我想就是您現在到了新工作應該現在一切都有進入狀況吧正在熟悉當中但是我想說因為你原來也是在這個領域裡面第一個問題想請教一下在"},{"start":8118.428,"end":8134.39,"text":"剛才我們也有很多的委員會關心有關於通膨的問題那我們比較關心的是如果通膨沒有辦法控制的話那麼就會影響我們這個薪資族薪水族他的收入"},{"start":8135.231,"end":8163.401,"text":"那麼在去年的時候呢有一個數字事實上是讓很多人比較觸目驚心的是我們去年的實質的總薪資在出現了7年來首見的負成長就是說我們的經常薪資雖然都有在成長甚至到了今年的第一季因為大家知道今年第一季可能都會有一些這個獎金啊這個年終獎金的入帳"},{"start":8164.401,"end":8182.033,"text":"所以今年第一季來說我們雖然經常性的薪資也是增加的但是非常非常遺憾的是在去年的實質總薪資出現了負成長之後到了今年第一季我們的實質總薪資仍然是這個"},{"start":8183.806,"end":8203.073,"text":"就是增加的比例是一點點但是實質性的經常性薪資還是有減少所以我想請問一下主計長你認為我們現在的實質總薪資沒有辦法有效的提升是不是主要因素就是通膨的關係"},{"start":8205.68,"end":8228.469,"text":"事實上通盤也是一個因素那我也是再跟委員報告一下雖然經常性薪資它是有增加但是轉換那個就是說整個一個物價指數之後它是減少0.09那實質總薪資是72,000多它本身如果再轉換那個物價一個指數的部分就會增加0.88"},{"start":8231.371,"end":8252.263,"text":"通膨的影響也會有影響通膨的結果就造成雖然薪資增加但事實上是錢變薄了所以雙管齊下我們要提高實質薪資的增加當然最主要還是要控制通膨另外一個"},{"start":8253.283,"end":8253.483,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8272.575,"end":8288.232,"text":"所以其實稅收超徵的狀況之下包含主計處尤其這個中央政府在編預算的時候他的餘裕比較多他這個就是不會這麼辛苦啦會事實上是比較happy的啦但是呢我不曉得"},{"start":8289.44,"end":8311.917,"text":"主計長你到了這個主計處之後主計總處之後你會不會這樣幸運啊?如果這個稅收超徵對於主歧視者在編預算的時候當然會比較好編所以我想請問一下以今年來說2023年大概是3800多億的稅收超徵你們預估今年還會不會出現稅收超徵?"},{"start":8314.296,"end":8334.597,"text":"這個我是不敢講但是如果就經濟成長一個態勢所以我們本身希望說我們不要說估計太保守了那這個部分當然因為財政部他整個有一個一個說一個估測的專案小組在做估測那本身也有一個估測的一些的模型在做預測"},{"start":8335.678,"end":8360.177,"text":"那我坦白說他111 112到113年總共他稅收調整也調整了將近4000多億進來那這個部分以我來講如果在預算籌編支出其實他報的概算大概你馬上就要編預算了對他大概都會超過3兆左右所以等於說他報的東西多你如果稅收不太保守我要問你的事"},{"start":8362.879,"end":8384.585,"text":"因為你馬上就要編預算了所以我才問你今年會不會出現稅收超徵今年我是說今年113年度對113年度因為以第一季來講應該是狀況也還不錯啦不錯是怎麼樣就是第一季稅收的一個情況應該是也不錯所以本身"},{"start":8386.741,"end":8395.808,"text":"第一季的稅收會超徵這我也不敢講因為這稅收方面的一個預估是財政部比較專門但是現在問題為什麼問你這個問題因為稅收超徵的關係所以呢我們就提前了提前的追加預算其實這有點不合原來的這個程序"},{"start":8406.457,"end":8424.184,"text":"因為這應該是要審計部核定之後你才能夠確定你可以去用這個稅收超徵拿來去追加預算所以呢你們現在才是等於說先用舉債的方式等到這個審計部核定之後呢你們再正式的去可以移用這個稅收超徵的部分"},{"start":8427.205,"end":8428.946,"text":"臺電因虧損累累而牽涉到廣大勞工權益"},{"start":8444.654,"end":8467.035,"text":"也就是那麼勞保基金你們要怎麼樣撥補呢要怎麼樣撥補因為在這個賴總統的就職演說裡面他說只要政府在勞保就不會倒那後來去問了勞動部長用什麼辦法呢你要拿出什麼辦法那麼看起來還是用撥補的方式好那我現在要請教你了那麼在"},{"start":8470.999,"end":8494.732,"text":"今年這個撥補的金額很龐大當然也是因為這個受益於稅收超徵的關係錢比較多所以可以撥補的比較多因為以往大概200億了不起到三四百億好那我想請問一下明年勞保基金大概還要撥補多少這是很廣大的這個"},{"start":8496.773,"end":8504.185,"text":"就是所有勞工朋友非常關係的事情明年要補多少會不會不低於今年的數字"},{"start":8506.502,"end":8532.048,"text":"原則上因為勞保基金在106年度開始他的保險的收入就不足以支付保險的支出但是因為他有一個就是說他投資的一個利得能夠去cover所以他變成說他的數字沒有那麼的龐大就是等於說虧損的數字但是呢還是一樣等於說如果我們勞保的費率沒有調整的話將來"},{"start":8533.488,"end":8533.848,"text":"113年度預算就編了1200億元"},{"start":8556.365,"end":8569.172,"text":"所以114年度其實我們也有預估說看到底是要把它來再撥補勞保的一個部分有這樣的打算啦但是經了多少我們還是必須要討論一下"},{"start":8571.934,"end":8584.085,"text":"明年一定會撥補但是是不是至少按照今年的一個標準這個部分就必須要看財源的狀況來做討論因為我說今年是已經達到1200億我沒有在講那個億後特別預算那1200億所以在明年你們的估計也應該也起碼要到1200億"},{"start":8595.456,"end":8611.494,"text":"因為這金額我還沒有確定我不敢說啦因為等於說我必須還要去細算它的一個需求然後再去確定因為整個財源分配的部分我必須要看我財源獲得是多少然後才能確定說我分配的一個金額是多少是這樣子"},{"start":8613.866,"end":8638.714,"text":"對這個當然因為你們在編預算之前一定有很多大家都互相拉扯啦對不對各個部會都會來跟你們要錢但是呢我覺得老保基金的這樣的一個年輕的長年的虧損這樣的一個虧損那麼當然是需要就是你不然的話就是在年紀的部分做相關的比如你的保費要提高啊等等之類的"},{"start":8639.574,"end":8657.091,"text":"但是顯然現在我想新政府應該也沒有意思要採取這樣的一個方式那在沒有採取這樣的方式之前呢那麼你的這個撥補的這個額度恐怕就是說因為你我剛給你看過去這幾年你是越來越多嘛"},{"start":8657.871,"end":8680.829,"text":"越來越多然後你如果縮減的話呢都會使得這個勞保基金的整個的整個的財務狀況會更為拮据所以我才想說在我們主計處來說如果未來勞動部他所提供的我覺得我是勞動部我一定跟你講說啊你今年撥我1200億啊你明年你不能少啊"},{"start":8681.169,"end":8683.933,"text":"所以是不是可以承諾一個是就是至少在這個撥補的金額上不能夠少於今年的水準"},{"start":8695.124,"end":8695.364,"text":"王室堅委員"},{"start":8733.339,"end":8733.48,"text":"有請主計長"},{"start":8741.089,"end":8764.765,"text":"委員好主計長這個你上任以來你們有報了一條喜訊就是說四月失業率3.36%那麼這是創24年來同月份最低啦你們有說的這樣那你們說的原因就是說這個失業率降低是因為疫情啊"},{"start":8765.899,"end":8780.799,"text":"以後那麼導致我們內需服務業復甦這大概就是你們說的理由原因不過既然你新上來在我們新內閣"},{"start":8782.708,"end":8807.958,"text":"那一政府要開始執政大展身手的時候我具體要求你做到齁做到一個很簡單的事情就是忠實呈現提出警訊不要報喜不報憂因為主計處的重要就是在這裡主計處要提出建言提供給內閣他們去"},{"start":8812.405,"end":8839.313,"text":"調節政策來因應時局的變化這樣才對所以你們的忠實呈現非常重要不要動不動就報喜訊那比方說你說是因為疫情結束以後服務業復甦沒錯啊但是相對的相對的我們在製造業"},{"start":8841.601,"end":8868.588,"text":"光是製造業我們比去年同業來講我們失業人數就增加1萬人講的服務業那製造業呢製造業比去年同業就減了1萬人那麼今年年初的總失業人數40萬5千人也比去年底還要高了要多了"},{"start":8869.741,"end":8869.901,"text":"主席"},{"start":8884.701,"end":8884.741,"text":"我為什麼說"},{"start":8914.278,"end":8937.832,"text":"我們要隨時提出警訊的原因就是說你比方說我們沾沾自喜說好像我們失業率降了可是你相較於其他國家我就講美國好了美國疫情期間平均失業率是5.7%那人家他疫情之後他降了2.1%他來到3.6%南韓啊"},{"start":8944.301,"end":8949.662,"text":"我們的鄰居3.5%降到2.7他也減了0.8那香港更是讓我們意外5.1%減到2.9%新加坡也是3.5%減到2.7%平均都還減0.8減2.2 2.1那這樣我們降個0.3%那有什麼好"},{"start":8973.2,"end":8973.5,"text":"提出警訊"},{"start":8991.012,"end":8991.633,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":9012.742,"end":9022.429,"text":"主席長有幾個我倒是覺得有隱憂的地方也就是說我們這是因為產業業務緊縮的關係這種結構性失業結構性失業的人數我們再度超過10萬人所以你認為這原因是什麼是"},{"start":9036.118,"end":9060.41,"text":"如何來避免我們這種結構性的失業啦?比方說產業的移轉那這五個月來平均這五個月來從去年底到現在我們都維持在10萬人左右這種結構性的失業你認為這有什麼樣的方式可以避免嗎?"},{"start":9061.539,"end":9086.335,"text":"事實上我們最近的結構性失業都維持很穩定就是在10萬人左右所以這本身的這個狀況也都遠遠低於疫情前所以這個部分其實它是也是呈現穩定的一個狀態那整個一個產業結構的一個轉換那導致的一個失業率的一個產生那這是有一些是屬於也不可避免的"},{"start":9086.935,"end":9110.661,"text":"另外一個引誘就是說我們青年失業率青年失業率一直居高不下啦像現在我們平均算青年失業率已經來到11.75%而且傷腦筋的是平均待業99天平均的待業天數99天這是10年來的新高啦"},{"start":9111.724,"end":9134.371,"text":"所以很可怕的我們青年人失業率這麼高11.75%是整體勞工失業率將近4倍之高欸將近4倍之高所以你看法呢我個人我是覺得說我們青年就業環境就業環境惡化"},{"start":9135.376,"end":9151.661,"text":"在你的看法有沒有什麼方式可以做調整做避免因為青年的失業率一向大部分都是比較高各國也都是一樣這樣的一個狀況那本身青年的失業率像一般"},{"start":9153.902,"end":9179.812,"text":"一般就是我們的一般輔導措施其實像青年署他裡面都會有一些譬如說給青年一些公讀的機會或者是說暑期有去那個做公讀這樣的一個或者是說非暑期的部分他也都會去協助青年的就業所以在就業基金裡面他也有辦理很多協助青年就業相關的一個措施所以我們一般都會把這些相關的數據"},{"start":9181.232,"end":9209.779,"text":"提供給相關的單位來做參考然後讓他作為修訂相關措施的一個依據而且主計長很傷勞金的是我們有6成以上的青年勞工他是負債的那麼有平均他們的青年的存款只有13.2萬這也是創下4年以來的新低啦"},{"start":9211.492,"end":9229.787,"text":"照說我們備質為貶的話那存款應該為增喔結果現在不增反減反減那六成的勞工他們是負債的而且這個負債還導於你說是卡債的佔了31%那麼車貸的佔了20.2%信用貸款36.1%這一些啊都是高利率的"},{"start":9241.587,"end":9252.403,"text":"負債那這一點我覺得沒有給青年人39歲以下的青年朋友他們有任何新的希望所以在這個部分我希望"},{"start":9253.666,"end":9270.395,"text":"你們的數據呈現以後,你們具體提建言給我們行政團隊,可不可以讓他們去調節政策。那還有一點很可怕的就是說,我們竟然有三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資。"},{"start":9273.917,"end":9299.216,"text":"那這方面的傷腦筋的是中等薪資啦中等薪資的所得者他們10年來沒有得到調薪所以主計處我希望你把這些數字統整以後你要建議建議財政部建議經濟部因為現在我們正在審中小企業發展條例"},{"start":9301.38,"end":9320.599,"text":"那我個人跟很多委員我們有提出建言而且我們有提出修法的部分就是說鼓勵對中等薪資調薪者能夠得到更高的優惠的減稅額"},{"start":9323.015,"end":9325.317,"text":"我們會把相關的數據提給相關的單位來做一個政策的參考"},{"start":9342.312,"end":9344.615,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的諮詢 接著我們請李燕秀委員諮詢"},{"start":9369.278,"end":9369.299,"text":"陳主計長"},{"start":9376.479,"end":9398.825,"text":"委員好主席長好今天是你的立法院的第一天接受我們的質詢首先要先恭喜你但是我想你也非常清楚過去你都是法家你的法家在台南市法家現在掌握整個國家法家是你我想你一定非常清楚了解這個地方的感受"},{"start":9399.725,"end":9415.051,"text":"所以過去無論是地方的財源來自促餐：包括委外的經營：包括地上權：包括市有重劃來去處理想辦法東擠西挪想辦法去找錢但是我們都知道其實巧複為難為無米之錘所以過去無論是臺南市長的賴清德"},{"start":9422.874,"end":9433.798,"text":"當任副總統的賴清德當任行政院長賴清德對於過去長期都用人口來去做這個才化法的劃分跟給各地方縣市的這個財源其實過去"},{"start":9437.959,"end":9464.131,"text":"賴清德也說對台南市非常不公平以台南是文化的首都單純以人口作為分配的依據其實他覺得是有調整的必要那我先就這個問題財化法現在已經25年沒有修了現在很多區域的立委各政黨對於財化法的處理都有想法也提案那我先請教主計長你對於財化法25年沒修你覺得該不該修"},{"start":9466.339,"end":9484.819,"text":"事實上財劃法的一個這個主導的單位是財政部那這個部分財劃法為什麼會這麼多年一直沒有修是因為他修也有他的一個困難因為本身第一個個限是他的條件不一樣財政的一個負擔"},{"start":9485.659,"end":9491.424,"text":"每個委員也就只有8分鐘而已所以你就直接我只想問你你在地方待過你現在到中央你現在是主計長你對於財化法的修正你覺得有沒有必要修正"},{"start":9510.498,"end":9537.314,"text":"你如果說我是台南市政府主計處處長我會希望修正因為我希望取得更多的財源越多越好但是我希望如果站在全國的立場我希望能夠調劑營需因為每個縣市他都不一樣他的條件都不相同財政的差距也不相同所以你必須要以中央他必須要有一個能一個額度給他來做調整的作用所以你到底是支持不支持我聽不懂你說幾句沒有"},{"start":9538.715,"end":9562.048,"text":"但是我就說現行的制度是不是有分配到公平因為我以現行來講所以才要討論嘛所以你到底支持哪一個版本我們可以討論但是你覺得該不該處理但是以現在的現狀來講我透過一般的縣市的一個補助包括計劃型計劃的一個補助他都能夠調整各縣市的一個符合各縣市的需求"},{"start":9562.848,"end":9563.009,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9577.098,"end":9577.479,"text":"中央財政委員會委員會長"},{"start":9594.314,"end":9620.715,"text":"市長賴清德臺南市財政大感失利財務法沒有通過自有裁員比例是非常低的但是行政院長賴清德講說財政劃分法修正案行政院一定要正視這個問題兩次的行政院院長賴清德都支持財務法要處理所以這件事情我要提醒你們不要換了一個位置換了一個腦袋這是我今天我想你來這地方你更知道地方的痛苦"},{"start":9621.616,"end":9643.093,"text":"所以這件事情你應該大力疾呼你現在擔任國家的大掌櫃主計長這件事情要怎麼處理既然市長的賴清德支持行政院長賴清德支持你過去在主計長的時候在台南市的時候你也支持沒有道理你擔任國家大掌櫃你換了一個屁股換了一個腦袋我們怎麼樣對人民交代"},{"start":9643.974,"end":9664.375,"text":"至於什麼樣的方向我覺得可以大家再來討論不處理是不能交代的好不好這個是我第一個問題那我不希望這件事情再一次跳票所以過去特別是我們也講說過去幾年中央財政都很好啊稅金剩餘都很多啊今年看起來我們的經濟成長又到6.53"},{"start":9665.876,"end":9677.828,"text":"看起來不錯啊,你不能中央吃肉,在地方都吃骨頭,連肉渣都沒有看到,這是我的重點所以我還是希望主計長這邊要跟卓院長跟賴總統討論一下,特別這個議題有沒有討論過"},{"start":9684.793,"end":9685.753,"text":"所以卓院長的態度怎麼樣"},{"start":9715.287,"end":9715.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9725.236,"end":9742.983,"text":"那你內部都沒有討論過我們再來要做業務報告可能要針對這個部分也做好那我期待下一次我還是會繼續追這個問題我來看看過去台南市的主計長現在國家大黨會中央的國際處長現在的我們主計長到底有沒有換了一個屁股換了一個腦袋也要想辦法要落實賴總統賴市長賴行政院長政策到底有沒有做調整"},{"start":9752.807,"end":9753.248,"text":"經濟成長率預估6.51明天舉辦國民所得評審會議"},{"start":9769.187,"end":9778.913,"text":"最近我看到我們今年其實首一季的經濟成長率是不錯的我們看看2023年的11月經濟成長率是3.35%通膨是1.642022月每三個月做一次經濟成長率3.43通膨1.85我有看到一個數字主計長我們明年要公佈的這個數字經濟成長率是3.57我們通膨是1.9是這樣嗎"},{"start":9800.596,"end":9805.62,"text":"這個部分像因為第一季我們的經濟成長是6.51所以本身我們本來是預估這個數字3.57跟1.9這個是我在媒體上看到數字是這樣嗎明天我們要開會的國民所得評審會議上是這樣嗎"},{"start":9816.749,"end":9816.949,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9836.192,"end":9838.814,"text":"你剛剛講說是其他數字換算加了其他的因素算出來還是3.57"},{"start":9857.884,"end":9875.338,"text":"就是以1到4月實際發生的狀況去推算的結果其他條件後面的就是原預估的不變這樣的話才有3.57那也是以明天的這個數字會出來那加上其他的因素才會是3.57跟1.9"},{"start":9877.486,"end":9878.206,"text":"所以結論還是換算出來最後的結果還是3.57跟1.9"},{"start":9900.55,"end":9923.69,"text":"1.9的部分事實上通貨膨脹的部分我們本來是預估1.85但是我如果把那個間接和直接的因素考慮進去的話按照道理電價的影響他是4月開始5月就會感受到了5月就會感受到然後後面的影響就是大概是沒有一整年就是等於說主席長所以這樣叫大概2.03"},{"start":9925.772,"end":9925.892,"text":"主席主席長"},{"start":9941.954,"end":9942.034,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9967.637,"end":9987.045,"text":"去年的實質薪資是負成長嗎?你知道負成長多久了?幾年?但是今年有正成長,今年第一季是負的去年是負成長,今年第一季已經正成長了那整年度會不會正成長?應該預估是OK的"},{"start":9991.311,"end":10002.921,"text":"你看好今年是正成長因為今年今年通膨通膨2.0到底2個2到多少還不知道但是如果說我換算通膨現在第一季的通膨換算之後我是成長0.88"},{"start":10005.625,"end":10022.051,"text":"所以你比過去的朱哲銘 朱大掌櫃 朱哲銘你對於今年這個民眾的這個經濟成長率還有包括通膨的狀況你還是 我覺得你還是蠻樂觀的啦你覺得實質人民的實質 因為過去實質總薪資已經連續幾年負成長你知道嗎"},{"start":10026.272,"end":10027.433,"text":"總薪資只有去年是副成長經常性的實質薪資有三年今年你認為可以轉正就對了"},{"start":10041.884,"end":10069.093,"text":"因為今年其實今年的第一季的那個經常性薪資他是有增加但是他如果換算那個通膨的一個膨脹率的部分通膨的綠綠的話就會變成是減少0.09但還是正的嗎但是總薪資是增加0.88但我問的是受僱人員經常性的實施薪資今年會轉正你覺得會轉正因為朱哲銘之前回答我是一半一半"},{"start":10072.115,"end":10097.874,"text":"總薪資我知道我問的是受雇人員經常性的實施薪資經常性薪資我不敢講因為經常性薪資大概就是這個水準但是這個水準轉換通貨膨脹率的部分所以你不確定多少的比例多少50 50你還是50 50還是沒有機會你沒有回答我問題你看稍微已經站起來到底你的看法是什麼"},{"start":10098.835,"end":10099.075,"text":"請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":10136.556,"end":10136.918,"text":"有請主席長"},{"start":10144.264,"end":10166.117,"text":"委員好是主計長我想您從地方政府來我也從地方政府來所以大家都知道而且應該是所有的政府部門尤其地方政府都很清楚中央跟地方財政收支劃分一直是個很大的問題尤其是88年修法到現在其實沒有再修過"},{"start":10167.297,"end":10183.09,"text":"25年了25年我很認真地去找出主計長你在2008年在台南市主計處長的任內念成大的研究所的碩士論文您在碩士論文的時候您還記得您說過什麼嗎"},{"start":10185.427,"end":10198.904,"text":"我那時候是有主張說要修正才劃法啦你那時候在民國88年以後的97年的你的碩士論文說因為配合精神將一頁稅從地方稅劃入國稅認為造成嚴重的縣市財政收支失衡"},{"start":10203.63,"end":10220.72,"text":"最重要是中央集權又集錢地方有責卻無權也無錢所以你認為目前不足以解決地方政府所面臨的問題還有修法的必要所以才化法應該要儘速修法主計長97年到現在又過了10多年"},{"start":10221.735,"end":10221.895,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10243.442,"end":10243.743,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":10260.403,"end":10261.804,"text":"不要換了位置就換了腦袋"},{"start":10281.135,"end":10294.472,"text":"您了解地方的財政困難您也了解中央這個法律已經25年沒有修訂您也了解現在中央的分配方式其實是沒有一定的規範所以我只要求一個"},{"start":10295.543,"end":10311.059,"text":"接下去財政委員會要開始審財政收支劃分法我希望主計處你可以答應我做一件事就是用至少用111年的決算把那一年度的相關的預算跟統籌分配稅款按照現在財委會有16個版本"},{"start":10314.102,"end":10340.818,"text":"這16個版本每個都有不同的公式你用一個年度的預算來計算整個model然後提出各個部分版本可能影響到的地方財政的分配還有中央的預算的執行就這個部分做出一個不同比對的相關的模組出來提供給財委會接下來要審議的委員們大家可以看到說按照A版本應該會怎麼分B版本會怎麼分會影響什麼"},{"start":10341.918,"end":10353.047,"text":"這個在我們的財委會出審的過程中由主計處先把預算針對現有的版本先做出一個基本的模組出來主計處可不可以先做到這件事"},{"start":10354.738,"end":10380.62,"text":"報告委員因為財政這個部分是財政部主導那整個統籌分配稅的部分是財政統籌分配稅是他主導錢是你在分嘛所以你們的模組是你預算執行跟決算的數字由你來做計算按照這個版本你會算出什麼樣的方式你要找財政部去演你我也沒有意見但是我認為這是主計處你們現有的數字就可以推算出來的"},{"start":10382.401,"end":10397.268,"text":"一般性補助 統籌分配稅款是財政部 是不是請委員分配縣市的這個部分 我也會找財政部 您的部分就業管的部分 也做出模組"},{"start":10400.369,"end":10423.638,"text":"這個版本有影響到地方分配的部分跟主計處有關的你也做出這個模組來所以我們是希望說我們跟財政部來配合因為如果財委會的委員要審查接下來的財政收支劃分法必須要很清楚的知道我們接下去的修訂的公式會對地方稅制有什麼樣的影響這個可能需要主計處跟財政部的配合"},{"start":10424.258,"end":10425.198,"text":"同樣的問題這個修法迫在眉睫到現在為止"},{"start":10440.083,"end":10465.076,"text":"賴總統在2012年他在台南市長的時候說要修訂2017年他當行政院長的時候也說要修訂我想知道因為蔡英文總統是目前為止唯一一個沒有提過財化法修正的版本的總統接下去的賴總統他請你來當主計長財化法立法院也有版本了我想問一下賴總統有沒有自己的版本"},{"start":10466.86,"end":10478.905,"text":"你來當主計長有沒有人跟你說過你要做自己的版本沒有沒有什麼時候會告訴我們你們會不會有自己的版本或至少配合立法院的版本行政院要有相關的立場"},{"start":10480.033,"end":10508.609,"text":"這要由財政部來做決定這不是我能決定的啦所以我希望一樣不要換了位子換了腦袋地方政府的困難我想你比誰都清楚第二個這個部分應該怎麼樣讓它法制化明文化跟透明化讓地方政府不再養中央的鼻息而它可以有自由裁員而且它可以維持財務的穩健好嗎主計長我這是我對你的期許我也希望你把地方政府的經驗帶到中央來而是讓"},{"start":10509.449,"end":10533.142,"text":"各個地方政府能夠更加的財政健全第二個部分很特別我想問一下主計處其實一直在推所謂的經費結算系統電子化最後一里路我想知道現在主計處尤其是您在當主計長接下去我們所謂的電子化核銷的作業有沒有什麼進展有沒有什麼計畫時間暫停"},{"start":10540.191,"end":10555.769,"text":"這我請同仁來補充資料那現在呢要不要來講一下是主席處對於電子核銷有沒有什麼想法有沒有什麼計畫有沒有什麼政策"},{"start":10557.602,"end":10576.548,"text":"報告委員目前我們主計總處有發展一套公用性捷報系統另外我們也協助各單位來制建系統還有那個您用我們主計處的系統主計長我的意思是說在我們在臺北市的時候其實有推動所謂的"},{"start":10577.688,"end":10606.378,"text":"政府電子化核銷作業然後臺北市目前為止至少在我們離任之前109年他節省電子化核銷的件數是10萬件節省掉了9100多個工作日省掉了222萬張H4紙也就是我們現在的公務系統還是很多要黏貼要做很多那財政部不斷的在推動電子化電子發票但是這些事情跟我們的政府好像沒什麼關係"},{"start":10607.418,"end":10620.122,"text":"所以政府有剛剛講你們有建立一個公有的系統但是我要告訴你的是沒有人用啊很少用啊而且最重要的是這些可能會造成大家的困擾所以公務員不習慣變化"},{"start":10622.43,"end":10651.673,"text":"財政部不斷的推廣電子核銷電子發票但是政府部門沒有往前走我們當然不希望影響到一般的中小店家但是電子化是政府應該走的路主計長這個部分是不是也要有一些未來的計畫我希望你不要多一個月給我一個你初步的想法如果地方政府臺北市政府目前電子核銷到達到99%我不相信地方政府做不到我也不相信中央政府做不到"},{"start":10653.522,"end":10668.584,"text":"我們現在目前112年有448個中央機關來使用經費解報系統我們CBA也有去借台北市政府相關的一個系統所以我們會努力來推動這一個部分顯然還是太過於"},{"start":10669.765,"end":10696.457,"text":"只是鼓勵性質太過於鬆散第二個效益不高第三個跟我們政府的國策好像沒有跟上來尤其是如果財政部拼命在推但是政府部門應該優先來做我希望一個月之內針對電子化的部分請主計長給我一個初步的計畫跟未來的規劃至少有個方向你可以不用一開始強力推但是你總要開始做"},{"start":10696.977,"end":10697.677,"text":"李坤 陳委員"},{"start":10724.92,"end":10727.122,"text":"謝謝主席我們請主計長委員好主計長好請教一下主計長我們這個前瞻計畫的預算是到哪一年結束我們到114年整個8400億然後到114年剩下703億預算是明年還會有前瞻計畫的預算嗎"},{"start":10753.943,"end":10780.141,"text":"原則上因為這前瞻計劃是整個一個計劃當初有核定通過所以我們原則上是會把整個計劃執行完畢是這樣子我的意思是說這個現在開始要編明年度的預算了嘛那明年度還有這個前瞻預算嗎前瞻計劃的預算嗎還有嗎因為你目前前瞻計劃他8年嘛那最後一年就是114年度有剩下703億的部分那這個部分我們原則上是會把它籌編"},{"start":10781.895,"end":10803.656,"text":"明年的前瞻計畫預算還有700多億就對了現在我比較關心的就是說在我自己的選區不管在三重或是新北市我們有很多的交通建設、軌道建設都是仰賴政府的前瞻的預算那如果說前瞻的預算直到明年就結束了那接下來"},{"start":10804.602,"end":10804.822,"text":"主席"},{"start":10820.995,"end":10849.168,"text":"明年這個特別預算就沒有了但是接下來這些軌道建設陸陸續續都還在做不是只有新北 台北也在做接下來如果沒有這筆特別預算來挹注的話因為我看光是我們前瞻預算來講8千億軌道建設就佔了一半 佔了4千億如果沒有前瞻預算的挹注的話接下來我們在新北 我們自己的軌道建設該怎麼辦"},{"start":10851.554,"end":10879.274,"text":"原則上坦白說我們目前也有很大的壓力因為如果在前瞻計畫沒有的話前瞻預算沒有的話將來各項工程如果進入支付的高峰期那再來都要把它到年度預算裡面來容納那年度預算裡面的那財源是固定的所以你就會有一些優先順序排列就預算就排擠了嗎是就會有排擠的一個狀況所以這個部分"},{"start":10879.914,"end":10906.736,"text":"當然到時候就是114年至少還有703億嘛但是目前交通建設各項的建設都已經進入支付的高峰期所以需求就會變大但是703億分配到軌道建設才多少對所以等於說115年以後籌編就會更為困難對啊光是這個700多億我不知道說有關軌道建設是多少但是光是我自己在新北市的北環南環這個"},{"start":10908.611,"end":10912.786,"text":"預算大概五六千億以上啦是跑不掉啦"},{"start":10913.667,"end":10939.437,"text":"對阿 那就像你講的接下來開始在做了那好不容易也發報出去開始在做了那每年每年都要付預算阿那如果說我們政府沒有在特別有這個特別預算下去挹注的話那就會排擠到交通部的本預算那所以我想請問一下主計長那如果這樣子的話接下來還會用特別預算的方式來做處理嗎那還是說這個多出來預算那就編列到各部會那你這個預算這個錢要怎麼編得出來阿"},{"start":10942.458,"end":10957.616,"text":"因為其實是預算的一個編列是看各部會的一個需求他提出的一個需求那當然你如果說再來就是會如果前瞻計畫沒有的話那將來他勢必要去衝擊到年度的一個預算"},{"start":10958.977,"end":10975.851,"text":"等於說年度的一個公共建設的一個預算他的額度可能是度勢必要做大幅的一個增加那這個部分也必須要看財源能不能容納容納多少這個部分必須我們必須看財政部他畢竟在1114年或者115年後以後他針針對他稅務財源的一個估算"},{"start":10982.555,"end":11009.644,"text":"就我來講如果你沒有持續用特別預算來指引的話你這個所增加的這些預算一定會大幅排擠本來的這一個各部會的預算尤其是交通部你看嘛交通部我跟他爭取要做地下停車場他說地下停車場的預算已經用完了欸已經用完了欸那他說接下來如果沒有編特別預算的話他要用他交通部的這個部的預算老實講"},{"start":11010.484,"end":11010.824,"text":"主計長的看法呢"},{"start":11041.389,"end":11058.335,"text":"這也要看我們整個政策是不是要提特別預算也應該要按部會的需求來看我先不用說各部會 因為你是最後各部會送到你這邊去主計長認為說是不是還要再用特別預算的方式來做質疑"},{"start":11059.252,"end":11073.962,"text":"因為也有很多的委員針對特別預算有所質疑那在這個部分也必須要看院裡頭府城這邊來針對這個部分的一個研議看情形是怎麼樣然後看是怎麼樣來做討論"},{"start":11076.398,"end":11096.521,"text":"但是如果沒有這些特別預算做指引的話我是認為第一個建設延續下去你就會勢必排擠到說其他各部會原本的預算那如果這個你們自己可能自己行政院你們要去討論好如果說到明年這個前瞻預算真的計畫也結束的時候接下來"},{"start":11097.646,"end":11123.198,"text":"其他的只計畫我認為還好但是有關軌道這方面來講的話你如果沒有用特別預算來指引的話我覺得是很困難的事情所以各項一個計畫的一個優先順序的排列就很重要然後各部會也要有所取捨所以這個部分好我再來請教一下這個主計長這個剛剛你有提到說這個今年度的這一個GDPGDP你認為說這個3.5以上沒有問題"},{"start":11126.187,"end":11151.336,"text":"如果是我以第一季來去估算的話然後其他條件不變我前面三四個月這樣的一個換算來換算應該是超過3.5是OK就是等於我初估如果以前以現在發生實際前三個月情況去估算然後後面條件都維持不動是3.5是OK但是還是要等到明天我們30號會有一個小組針對這個討論以後真正的數據他會做公佈"},{"start":11154.833,"end":11180.087,"text":"我看這個主計長是蠻熱觀的齁這個我們卓院長說希望有3.5然後我看您早上有說這個甚至會更高到這個多少3點多這個數字我不敢講啦但是這個部分我也不能公佈數字但是這個部分明天討論之後我們就會公佈那這個如果按照你現在預算的這個估算的話會比3.5高那你認為會有哪些變數會受到影響因為當然"},{"start":11184.171,"end":11211.545,"text":"電費調整成本會增加相對的對GDP會有一些的影響這個部分然後包括譬如說如果是政治的因素地緣政治有一些戰爭的一些因素的影響戰爭的影響或是地緣政治的一些影響都會影響到我們整個GDP的那個但整體來講全年度還是樂觀的原則上初步來講以第一季來看是樂觀的"},{"start":11212.708,"end":11229.425,"text":"好那你看有提到那個台電的問題啦台電的話你們有送這個一千億的這個增加預算到立法院來嘛對不對那如果這個立法院因為現在這個國民黨跟民眾黨在國會是多數嘛那如果他不讓這個預算增加預算這個通過的話該怎麼辦"},{"start":11231.502,"end":11250.753,"text":"因為如果不給他因為這主要是做虧損的一個補貼啦他因為他有一些燃料成本嘛他必須要有一個如果不調整電價的話他就必須要去做一些虧損的補貼那不然的話他沒有辦法繼續去運作那所以如果這一點不讓你通過的話該怎麼辦"},{"start":11252.847,"end":11275.492,"text":"那這個部分就變成是說臺電他應該要再研擬相關的一個措施那他的措施到底是要調整電價還是怎麼樣的一個方式電價他現在也不讓你調整啊他現在電價他修改這個電業法就是說要立法院同意電價才能調整嘛所以我是問你說在這種情況下如果說在野黨他這個追加預算也不讓你過然後臺電他也不讓他漲價的話怎麼辦"},{"start":11277.253,"end":11293.721,"text":"那所以如果台電他在營運的部分呢必須要舉債他就應該要去借錢啦那不然但是借錢的話他的營運成本又增加所以這個部分就是有一些惡性的循環所以最後還是還是回到這個羊毛素在羊身上的這個這個這個問題啊是這個台電齁在112年113年齁連同今年的最佳預算齁你們已經給他3500億啦對不對對"},{"start":11304.179,"end":11323.819,"text":"這老實講齁 這個台電的虧損齁多少四千億的齁 四千億的那這樣子的話就是說我們去年是因為我們有賺錢那所以我們就多一千億給這個台電那這個對台電來講也不是這個長久的辦法啊對啊 那台電該怎麼辦"},{"start":11326.767,"end":11335.866,"text":"所以這個部分因為就它整個營運的狀況來講的話應該是要做一些相關的一個調整"},{"start":11339.3,"end":11342.203,"text":"臺電會把他們虧損的預算列在他們的預算裡面但是經濟部那邊好像有些意見"},{"start":11359.818,"end":11387.074,"text":"是因為我們也有做對台電等於說我們去年兩年4千億總共有一些是屬於增資那如果說真正的不行也可以做那個虧損彌補做一個調整做一個虧損的一個調整那現在營運的話如果營運成本的部分他如果去擠借如果錢不夠去借款那就是增加一些成本大概目前的措施是這樣如果他沒有調整電價的話"},{"start":11389.155,"end":11390.096,"text":"臺電整個措施要看臺電的作法"},{"start":11418.649,"end":11418.81,"text":"有請主計長"},{"start":11425.407,"end":11446.107,"text":"委員好主計長您好記得這個會期主計總處在3月7號有開過一個記者會當時是宣布2月的物價指數年增率是3.08當時是預估說可能全年要修正從1.64上調到1.85"},{"start":11450.191,"end":11455.635,"text":"後來說臺電會調漲電價所以我們是預計說可能全年會影響到0.09所以通膨可能會站上1.94逼近2%的警戒線當時我問說需不需要建議央行升息對抗通膨後來我們就看到說在3月21號的時候央行升息了半碼"},{"start":11477.109,"end":11477.65,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11494.133,"end":11511.798,"text":"在前幾天有一則新聞就是提到說可能會上修今年的一個經濟成長率不過物價上漲的壓力仍在那在這裡呢我們也看到就是央行說不排除再升息"},{"start":11512.478,"end":11517,"text":"現在想要請教一下我們主計長因為這個是很兩難嘛我們也看到在會議當中大家的意見也是兩派如果不升席的話難以壓制物價可是如果升席的話呢好像對我們的這個像經濟部啊廠商這些又會有一些些的意見"},{"start":11535.909,"end":11562.48,"text":"在這邊因為主計長您是新上任的所以我想說特別想要了解一下你的想法現在大家都會去討論所謂臺灣好像經濟是一個人的武林我們這些ICT的產業臺積電大家一枝獨秀帶領我們的經濟成長但是好像是無法去讓全民去共享"},{"start":11563.28,"end":11590.709,"text":"所以有時候這個幸福感也不見得會正確啦那這是一個政治的藝術所以想要請教主計長就是您權衡這個消費者物價跟企業經營的成本然後去考量我國的這種產業的結構你認為這個CPI年增率應該控制在什麼數字你覺得比較合理"},{"start":11592.336,"end":11614.762,"text":"原則上我們因為其實我們是辦理調查然後相關的數據去做提供給各單位去做參考所以等於我們會認為說如果是年增率如果能夠控制在2%以下當然是最好啦但是問題有時候就是有一些其他的因素啊比如說"},{"start":11615.162,"end":11617.444,"text":"因為我們主計總處也有提到景氣有慢慢變好了"},{"start":11640.104,"end":11658.096,"text":"有提到就是我們的景氣有慢慢變好那我們的一到四月第一季你們也提到說他的經濟成長率是6.51是十一季以來最佳表現三年來的一個最高那在這裡你應該也很清楚是什麼帶動"},{"start":11659.687,"end":11686.207,"text":"可是我們看一下你們做的這個勞動部做的2023年一個社會新鮮人的薪資比較我們看到他的平均全體平均是三萬五千可是細看的時候很明顯的這些資訊通訊科技這些ICT產業他是一枝獨秀"},{"start":11687.566,"end":11707.344,"text":"所以它是明顯高於其他的產業那這些傳統產業、內需產業跟其他的領域我們其實有很多的人是在這個領域去做我們的工作那又例如說你們這個夜報有提到這個辦理的物價統計"},{"start":11709.005,"end":11715.547,"text":"我們的113年的第一季比去年同期是漲了2.24%那細看的時候像食物類是3.51服務類上漲是2.61經常性購買的是比去年同期漲了3.23"},{"start":11732.373,"end":11749.739,"text":"所以你們也做了一個統計就是我們薪資最低的20%的家庭跟薪資最高的20%的家庭他們的所得跟消費支出的一個占比差異很明顯我們可以看得出來"},{"start":11751.179,"end":11777.182,"text":"這些低薪資的家庭他的選擇大概就是先管住再管吃再管病那其他的消費性的休閒性的是他們最後的選擇這個跟我們的高收入家庭是不太一樣的占比的重要性也是不太一樣的所以在這邊只是想要就是了解一下我們主計長"},{"start":11778.183,"end":11798.075,"text":"因為我們其實推出很多的政策我們講經濟成長率那為什麼人民會無感因為我們要去看他痛苦會痛苦在什麼地方如果是痛苦在他最基本的每天要面對的必須基本解決的政府做出多好的政策他都不會覺得好"},{"start":11798.959,"end":11821.945,"text":"所以我在這裡就是希望主計長您幫忙就是做一個功課因為像你們這邊我看到有一個主計總處家庭可支配所得變動趨勢在2021年的一個分析我們可以很清楚的看到低所得家庭他的收入"},{"start":11822.845,"end":11845.674,"text":"在這幾十年他的收入是緩慢的是停滯的可是高所得家庭的收入在這幾十年他其實是越來越高的所以我們雖然經濟成長率看起來是好的GDP是好的可是我們可能有很多的地方他是感受不到的"},{"start":11846.73,"end":11872.066,"text":"所以這個是一個主計總處其實你們都在做一些很好的分析有很多好的工具那這些你們會不會提供像我們的稅制啊社會救助啊勞工薪資啊產業結構投資市場就是提供給這些各部會讓他們去做一個調整的依據那想要聽一下主計長你們會怎麼做"},{"start":11874.863,"end":11885.939,"text":"事實上我們相關的一個數據我們都有公開在我們的網站那只是公開喔對 那我們也會提供因為我們各部會有我們各部會的一個會計那我們也會提供給他們和統計人員來做參考"},{"start":11894.588,"end":11903.193,"text":"社會保障支出方面家庭收支所得的最低和最高維持在6.05倍到6.15個人所得部分維持到3.93左右"},{"start":11910.657,"end":11939.235,"text":"那這個部分我們會透過一些比如說租金的補貼因為他住的會有影響所以透過一些政策的一個改善來改善這當中的一個差距或者是說我們會有一些老人交通的一個補助那這也會改善這當中的一個差距這差距那所以呢整個部分這個部分我們就是說我們是希望能夠提供給各部會能夠來參考然後作為他整個改善整個措施的一句"},{"start":11939.835,"end":11963.047,"text":"主計長我的意思就是這樣因為你看一下我們剛才那個圖嘛你看他最後你們是做到2021嘛我要講的是說對你剛剛講的什麼租金補貼都對這個就是我們講的我們政策做很多但是人民之所以無感是那些低所得的人你看一下他的那個成長的幅度"},{"start":11965.485,"end":11980.422,"text":"有時候我們這些年越做越多可是它的差距是越來越大不換寡換不均有時候那個感受是相對的感受所以我才會說我們做很多政策是對的但是為什麼那個差距彌補不起來"},{"start":11981.903,"end":12007.64,"text":"就是希望說我們主計總處我是希望啦包括我們你們所做的這些什麼國民所得統計、物價統計、社會保障支出、人力工序、中央調查、基本國事調查、家庭收支統計我是希望說更積極主動的去銜接各部會的選擇而且我是希望啦主計總處要作為一個國家警報台啦你們要市警啦"},{"start":12008.52,"end":12032.961,"text":"因為你們掌握這一些分析統計資料因為我們看到我們真的做很多但是現狀實際你們做出來的分析統計就是沒有嘛所以我希望再更積極一點做市井的角色好不好那最後一個小小的問題啦因為我們經常在處理那個木林什麼工作要點等等之類但是呢每一次呢他們都會說啊我們還要跟主計總處討論啊"},{"start":12035.303,"end":12040.307,"text":"我舉個簡單的例子假設像那個木鈴經費他要他們說因為是噪音所以他只補助他們去做那些什麼隔音的設備他說我總不能天天買冷氣天天做那個窗戶吧你們噪音的時候你應該允許我我那個禮拜我們可以出去旅遊啊他們就會說哎呀那個主計總處會不答應啦有些科目不能織我想請教一下主計長真的是這樣嗎"},{"start":12062.824,"end":12063.164,"text":"主席請這個主計長有請陳主計長"},{"start":12094.733,"end":12094.853,"text":"主席"},{"start":12126.074,"end":12148.348,"text":"因為我們相關的資料吼 調查之後我們會公佈公佈在我們的網站但是你會 會 因為你們有的還要入戶嘛 我知道主計總組還要 主計處還要入戶去統計嘛或者說你家有多少收入有多少錢啊 這一份就副本 詳細的東西就送到我們民黨裝上去啊說明改天我在電視上看到王一川說 哇 這個家裡誰很有錢啊 這個又行動監控去了哪裡去哪裡啊"},{"start":12148.908,"end":12156.155,"text":"你們會送一份回黨中?你們黨中央嗎?我們這是總體數據的展現,不會有個人的總體,沒有說個體啦我們也沒有你們會做家務調查嘛,對不對?抽樣的嘛,我知道不會有個人的數據出現,都是整體數據的不會喔,你們做家務調查沒有,我說"},{"start":12167.586,"end":12169.067,"text":"金門縣財力分級問題各職轄縣縣市政府財力級次表"},{"start":12193.212,"end":12213.444,"text":"您前一位我就討論過了是依據中央對直轄級縣市政府補助辦法的第8條規定也就是中央對直轄級縣市政府支企劃型補助款應按照財力級式給不同的補助比例在這個財力分級制度下您知道金門被歸為第幾級了第三級李導有幾個縣市哪幾個李導李導有幾個縣市哪幾個"},{"start":12219.571,"end":12230.78,"text":"三個阿哪三個阿祖還有呢他們第幾集他們是第五集他們是第五集阿我們第三集哪些城市第三集"},{"start":12238.484,"end":12257.913,"text":"台南高雄新竹嘉義新竹縣市你看喔你們的台南是多麼直轄市是多麼受到這個眷顧的地方啊你們畫第三期我們金門跟你們一樣畫第三期你們的財政規模你知道吧台南市的財政規模一年多少啊"},{"start":12260.001,"end":12272.248,"text":"一千億我們才一百億然後我們的財力分局跟你們放在同一個這個跟你們這種一千億我們才一百億然後跟你們放在同一個級距裡頭合適嗎"},{"start":12276.289,"end":12279.851,"text":"民國108年到112年金門縣資本門預算中央只有補助36.51到55"},{"start":12298.299,"end":12325.076,"text":"三十幾趴到五十幾趴我們財政已經有很沉重的負擔近三年來我們稅率稅數決算的這個還審定的還短處高達新台幣59.29億我們已經產生了巨額的短差所以在這個情況下我們那個醫療中心京西醫療中心我們的博裕我們主要的這個幹道的優化工程我們進任國中的停車場我們中正國小的停車場我們有二十幾項的重大計劃總計劃的經費是一百零個億"},{"start":12327.657,"end":12352.037,"text":"中央只要補助我們15億我們縣政府要自己配合87億中央才要補助我們15.19%造成我們縣庫很沉重負擔所以我剛跟你說的這些事情全部都沒有辦法做醫療也沒有辦法做道路主要道路也沒辦法做停車場也沒有辦法做二十幾項重大計畫你們只給我們15%的補助我們都沒有辦法做"},{"start":12353.188,"end":12374.543,"text":"我們的自由財政自由財源的規模規模在全國各縣市是倒數第三名除了澎湖跟連江外其他縣市的自由財源稅率最初的規模都比我們多我們整個財源就只有超過澎湖跟連江那其中你們這些縣市有9個縣市自由財源超過100億"},{"start":12377.865,"end":12401.052,"text":"你們的自由財源就超過我們整個縣的這個預算好像彰化屏東還有200億啊所以你們對我們的這個你們中央啊對我們這個直轄縣市的這個補助條第8條用自由財源比例你們是用自由財源的比例認定為是財力縣市政府財力及次的標準這個沒有辦法真正的合理展現縣市的這個財政能力"},{"start":12401.852,"end":12402.132,"text":"主計長你有關心到嗎?"},{"start":12418.557,"end":12443.324,"text":"這個部分呢因為有時候財政規模也看人口也看面積啦對好我來跟妳看人口跟面積齁等一下我跟妳講人口跟面積我們的財政規模很小嘛基本線嘛小線嘛那我們基礎建設很弱厚啊我們縣政府大樓是57年蓋的衛生局是59年蓋所有局是66年這些都已經被評為危樓了喔可是我們沒有錢可以改建啊主計長你知道我們要自己負責你知道這個自來水應該是誰負擔嗎按照法律規定應該誰負擔嗎"},{"start":12448.151,"end":12470.754,"text":"中央的地方自來水地方也要負擔一部分你知道自來水我們是自己負擔嗎自來水全省的這個臺灣啊包括澎湖啊中央在負擔我們是自己有自來水廠我們自己負擔我們的農林漁牧實驗所全部本來這都中央我們自己有農事所、林務所、敘事所"},{"start":12472.065,"end":12484.826,"text":"水市所全部這些以前你們省的時候這個省負擔嘛後來收到中央都中央負擔我們這些全部都我們金門縣自己負擔我們那個水市所也是圍樓啊我們很多公務員辦公的地方都是圍樓啊"},{"start":12486.28,"end":12508.535,"text":"我們上次這個新門縣這個之前我們這個中央這個政務委員前政務委員張景生有去開會我們的副主計長也有過去他說這個是很不合理的所以他協調主計總處針對這個補助辦法要重新計算財政級距劃分研議把金門的財政級距直接劃為第5級你知道嗎"},{"start":12512.875,"end":12513.055,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12537.228,"end":12564.064,"text":"不是因為第一個就是說那個是另外補助是另外歸補助然後本身縣市自由產生的一個財源的這個部分的比率他到底是多少然後你看看自由財源你看這個表金門澎湖跟連江我們人是三個我們用離島跟離島比是比較準的跟本島是當然沒有辦法比因為我們14萬澎湖10萬連江1萬我們面積也是最大人口也是最多我們收到的"},{"start":12564.924,"end":12592.437,"text":"分配款是最少的我們只有才能自己籌的因為我們努力的賺錢所以你們給我們比較少錢我們收到19億澎湖統籌拿到24億我們跟澎湖比較接近你看喔規模啦齁一般性補助款我們收到14.5億澎湖拿到47億這樣是不是很不成比例啊我們14萬人口比人家多面積比人家大我們的統籌分配款得到比人家還有一般性補助款差這麼多"},{"start":12594.226,"end":12613.854,"text":"那在計劃型補助裡頭也是啊因為第3級第5級也影響很大嘛是不是因為這個計劃型補助除了財力分級你們的各縣市的計劃也按照這個你們的財力分級來做補助的標準啊我現在告訴你我們很多事情都做不了先政府的圍樓沒有辦法改建主要的幹道沒有辦法做醫療中心也沒有辦法蓋"},{"start":12617.092,"end":12630.08,"text":"是替我們考慮一下我們也不要求跟台灣一樣我們跟離島一樣就好我們跟澎湖一樣就好我們只要求我們離島只要跟離島比我們只要跟澎湖只要跟馬祖就是連江一樣就可以了"},{"start":12630.799,"end":12653.423,"text":"因為才藝分級主要是要看你的裁員那你一直在說你一直在說因為我們很會就是說因為我們很努力的賺錢所以你是懲罰好學生嘛不是懲罰但是你如果表現的好這個都有獎勵像如果優秀是你看看那個表格全部獎勵了以後你看看那個表格全部獎勵以後我們的補助款得到14.5億澎湖得到47億統籌分配款我們得到19億澎湖得到24億這是獎勵後的結果嗎"},{"start":12660.742,"end":12689.054,"text":"就是你這個制度沒有鼓勵一個很認真在自由財運努力上的這個縣市嘛我剛才說100多億的預算你們只給我們15億那些重大建設我們要自籌80幾億我們沒有辦法中央一直說金門有錢那金門有錢是因為我們也節育縮食我們也很省著用啊我們也很努力在賺對不對我們也很努力在賺但是你們不能這樣子懲罰我們啊不然我們很多重大建設真的做不下去連大橋都要我們自己花一半的錢"},{"start":12690.35,"end":12692.191,"text":"謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢 接著我們請羅明采委員質詢"},{"start":12727.455,"end":12751.555,"text":"主席各位主列席官員大家早安大家好主席可不可以請陳淑姿陳主計長有請陳主計長陳主計長你好你可以說是最重要的管錢的財神爺每個人看到你特別是每縣市都是嗷嗷待哺"},{"start":12753.647,"end":12769.984,"text":"剛剛有陳玉珍委員講到金門金門是離島要多多照顧因為有您多照顧明天才會變得更好因為離島過去資源不多"},{"start":12771.741,"end":12774.485,"text":"主計長還有哪一個地方應該多補助一點"},{"start":12787.389,"end":12808.996,"text":"因為要補助的縣市也很多啦那每個縣市都喊窮說沒有錢我看大部分所以這個部分我們一般啦我們在一般性的補助我們都有給他說一個保證保證的產品就是說會成長這樣子所以我們每一年在分配的時候都有跟他有一個是保證說每一年固定成長2%到3這樣子"},{"start":12813.219,"end":12837.154,"text":"對,但是因為你是新來的啦先擔任這個職務就這二三十年來看我覺得這個職務是相當重要的啦因為運籌帷幄那怎麼樣來讓地方自主性可以增加以前他們在講說一鄉一特色"},{"start":12838.561,"end":12863.612,"text":"或者運用什麼樣的加持的力量讓他可以有一個自主性的發展比如說我看到也是臺灣之光這個NVIDIAJASON黃仁勳他要回來臺灣那要在高雄要設廠"},{"start":12864.659,"end":12890.659,"text":"其實他本來在台灣他們就有公司了啦那員工也上千人都有在做那我覺得中央應該統籌一個力量怎麼樣平均的來分配比如說新竹是半導體的重鎮他就有一個特色所以在過去"},{"start":12892.401,"end":12917.818,"text":"民國七十幾年的時候因為有打這樣的一個基礎啊所以他開枝山葉半導體核心整個就廣布啊很平均的上下有這個鏈就是生成的我覺得主計長你的位置重要性就是說農林漁牧或者是觀光也好像剛剛講的離島你要賦予他離島"},{"start":12921.912,"end":12949.462,"text":"當然每個人都要錢當然錢是越多越好可是你在給錢的給預算的同時也希望能多多跟他們聊聊看當地的教育文化過去的歷史特性有沒有什麼可以重點支持的比如說泰國好了講到泰國主席長你最先想到的是"},{"start":12950.526,"end":12975.203,"text":"他的什麼產業比較發達泰國的產業喔觀光吧觀光對你不要害怕啦就是你這個胸有成竹啦你經驗很豐富就是觀光所以他就產業鏈就形成了嘛所以我就希望說在我們一般性補助或者是有特別補助"},{"start":12976.243,"end":13004.509,"text":"你們在統籌統治中央的立場在分配的時候是可以除了照顧之外另外還可以求未來未來性的一個發展那接下來我們就有遇到這個才化法的問題最近大概已經等了25年了地方都"},{"start":13005.711,"end":13031.351,"text":"澳澳代補本席也是希望多聽聽主計長你多年來在公務生涯的經驗你住在台南待過嗎還在那邊待過省政府省政府也待過行政院主計總處也待過都待過所以你的經驗數字你趕快準備出來希望你能給予大家一個比較"},{"start":13032.455,"end":13058.71,"text":"公平給大家一個比較有建設性的建議讓第一個貧富懸殊不要越來越大第二個給錢的同時你要叫他釣魚要怎麼樣帶動他地方的發展或者是缺的部分你們就要媒合啊拜託經濟部啊"},{"start":13060.629,"end":13084.982,"text":"上次我跟過去的省部長後來行政院副院長我覺得他對台灣貢獻就很大當初他就是跟這些AI的這些很成功的全世界大概前四大他大概每個都有接觸過然後來台灣的時候都跟他們探討怎麼樣"},{"start":13086.243,"end":13112.836,"text":"把這些技術或者他們缺晶片他馬上來把管道讓他連接上所以希望主計長可以辦演好為每個地方為國家多多來做事的這樣的一個重責大任另外就是過去主計的預測好像都失真失準準確度都不高"},{"start":13114.059,"end":13137.801,"text":"比如說今年經濟成長率你們估計多少3.43去年估的時候呢去年估2點多然後2點多到3點差很多因為你差一個0.1的百分比就差多少多少的數字"},{"start":13139.082,"end":13145.788,"text":"那我也期許主計長就是把餅做大希望在你的這個資源裡面稍微盤點一下然後多多注重民生大家關心的議題"},{"start":13166.414,"end":13192.225,"text":"譬如說有些產業你們跟各部份要聊一下比如說ToroToro的價格最近怎麼樣生魚片鮪魚啊降到200塊那是降到200塊更低了更低喔更低了以前是一小片可能就是200、300還到500"},{"start":13196.282,"end":13222.06,"text":"現在是那麼大片多了一片價格也變降很多所以這名稱的數字你們希望也多多了解農民的辛苦漁民的困難因為他量多嘛量多你就可以請其他單位未雨綢繆多多促銷"},{"start":13223.956,"end":13245.186,"text":"比如說現在一個便當好了我們吃的便當現在一個多少錢?雞腿便當我最近在火車站那邊買他有85到120然後85和100的排骨便當他裡面的內容還是不太一樣所以他還是有各種不同的價格那雞排便當的話大概要120台鐵便當現在一個大概100塊你要雞腿就變成是120"},{"start":13250.984,"end":13272.681,"text":"一百二那以前大概六十八十塊都可以就是可以吃得到現在開始都一直飆漲主計長其實你可以在漲的同時你們可以有另外一個機制宣布出來說民眾注意阿現在Toro很便宜阿你們要促銷阿"},{"start":13275.219,"end":13289.745,"text":"所以你們第一線去查的這些數字不是放在辦公室吹冷氣是要把這些數字有效精準的給其他單位這點可以做得到嗎"},{"start":13290.636,"end":13311.61,"text":"我們盡量,我們一定努力然後你可以跟教育部啊,這邊互相聯繫好啊因為小朋友營養午餐等等,要吃得好吃得飽啊你就把這個鮪魚比較低的,叫他們多使用鮪魚啊香蕉量產太多的時候,大家都多吃香蕉啊"},{"start":13314.686,"end":13341.404,"text":"反正這些民生物資的我看以前彭淮仁總裁他貴為央行的總裁常常為福出巡希望主計長你也可以多多比照多了解一下民間苦人何其多可以多多站在他們立場來想事情最後"},{"start":13342.509,"end":13362.126,"text":"提醒你新北市人口400多萬人以前升格到現在中央欠新北市很多錢該給的統籌分配稅款一般補助專案補助都比期待值差很多"},{"start":13363.554,"end":13381.203,"text":"所以希望這一點主計長也能數字多多瞭解一下我們一起共同為新北市的市民來多做爭取可以嗎?是,我們一定盡力好,謝謝好,謝謝榮民財委員質詢接著我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":13394.757,"end":13411.608,"text":"主席請主計長有請主計長委員好主計長好恭喜你謝謝委員你曾經在行政院主計總處服務過是民國90年"},{"start":13417.739,"end":13440.531,"text":"我那時候在延明會我是老公務員三四年老公務員從省政府到中央我們在省政府也有共事過所以這個部分還是要請主計長還有我們行政院主計總處的同仁再次了解原住民的困境"},{"start":13442.605,"end":13457.135,"text":"那我們看111年這個原住民就業者參加勞保的情形原住民無勞保之勞工他是勞工但是沒有勞保的4萬0553人112年這又增加到5萬2002人一直增加"},{"start":13467.749,"end":13467.97,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13483.939,"end":13510.335,"text":"就已經諮詢過然後勞動部：當時的司長他已經退休了勞保局長退休了當時的司長也開過三次會議最後一次106年7月10號要編的預算但是沒有錢一直到現在都沒有解決"},{"start":13513.314,"end":13539.065,"text":"事實上嚴住民族基本法26條第二項規定政府對嚴住民參加社會保險無力負擔者得以補助所以這個非常非常的重要這個部分請勞動部跟主計總處能夠互相的協調給最大的支持可以嗎"},{"start":13540.556,"end":13559.034,"text":"因為就同仁提供資料裡面他就是說在勞工職業災害保險法裡面他已經有提供那個原民勞工的一個職災給護的一個保障那所以這個部分呢他本身如果有這些的保障就能解決那些沒有參加那個部分我來說明"},{"start":13561.007,"end":13584.374,"text":"那個只是其中之一啦有勞保跟沒有勞保差很多啊平常生病平常這個什麼相關的這些勞保的這些協助都有嘛好講到植栽植栽的時候如果他有勞保我們就講這次的0403地震呢有一個開大號車的被大壓石頭壓過濕了"},{"start":13589.847,"end":13590.007,"text":"主席"},{"start":13607.446,"end":13633.816,"text":"讓主計長瞭解還有我們主計總策同仁也瞭解我們的平均移民落差很大沿漢的平均移民落差很大所以我們常常會有訴求所以像國民年金法就是原住民是55歲公教退休原住民是55歲還有很多還沒有完成的比如說勞工的還有其他的"},{"start":13634.736,"end":13663.329,"text":"都是需要去降低他的年齡我們看這個平均收入我們的差距差距也是很大連漢的平均收入差距也很大所得就有影響我們的失業率我們的這個出債協力教育是向上提升最重要的對不對教育向上提升最重要的"},{"start":13664.626,"end":13677.234,"text":"這裡面為什麼要跟這個主計總處講呢?你看我們107斜年度沿漢的落差那時候107斜年度全國是85.8 原住民53.9 差距是31.9"},{"start":13684.471,"end":13705.007,"text":"但是到了111斜年度全國88.9原住民56.5雖然我們也上升了但是差距加大了32.4有很大的原因是什麼呢因為我們原住民的那個身血保障"},{"start":13706.345,"end":13732.916,"text":"原住民族教育法有升學保障那是外加2%外加不影響一般學生的升學我們是外加2%以前沒有以前不是外加只要加分就可以考上現在是外加2%外加2%的結果是怎麼樣呢就跑到私立大學了就繳不起那些學費所以這次選舉前"},{"start":13734.514,"end":13734.714,"text":"主席主席總書記"},{"start":13763.835,"end":13764.615,"text":"要請主計長多多幫忙"},{"start":13790.206,"end":13804.908,"text":"今日登記發言的委員已詢答完畢本次會議做如下決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢及委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資訊請行政院主計處於一座內"},{"start":13806.37,"end":13817.963,"text":"與書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在委員補題書面資料一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},{"id":"153302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331aa53228824cd2ab1de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"13:27:00 - 13:34:48","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":468,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T13:34:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T13:27:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1268,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（13時27分）謝謝主席，我有請部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長好。我是國民黨的立法委員林倩綺，住在您過去高雄的選區，我本身也是原住民，是阿美族，待會兒我會關心一些議題，要在這邊跟您及相關的單位就教。您知道我們有一些海洋國家公園，還有高雄市在管理的，我待會兒會針對整體業務。我先講一下主題，待會兒會針對移民署，也要幫移民署的一些基層人員請命，接下來是海洋國家公園這個區塊，然後再來是原住民，包括宗教、戶政等等。是不是相關的業務單位就上來支撐一下部長？"],["主席：請移民署署長及國家公園署署長。"],["林委員倩綺：以下如果有需要相關的報告，是不是請各單位在一個月左右至少給我一個回應，就是有關於我問的主題；如果有必要的話，請進一步我們口頭做個溝通。","第一個部分，我要幫移民署的基層人員請命，我自己本身有些經驗，我後來發現移民署基層人員的人力不太足，因為我發現他們經常要執行有點像警察查緝的業務，他們有這樣的權力，但是業務量也很大，他們經常要查緝，還要查賄，然後還要處理收容的問題，我就不多談內容性的部分。所以我覺得他們的業務量是很高的，因為我本身曾經配合他們要做相關的事務。當然這個部分跟我們的南向政策也有關，但是南向政策的許多國家，每一個國家的風土民情差異太大，我相信應該移民署這邊有掌握很多的狀況跟問題。雖然我在教文委員會，我也知道在教育的這個部分，我們現在會面臨很多國際生，內政委員會在前幾天其實也有相關的討論。在學生的部分，其實他們還在學校，學生延伸出來未來的社會問題，我有確定了目前行政院的平台還沒有注意到這一點，所以我現在是先從移民署，我相信移民署是第一線碰到的，所以在基層人力的這個部分，我先跟大家預告，如果目前政策走向及方式上還沒有做處理的話，這部分要先因應，要不然未來我們的社會成本會很高。未來還有大家剛才也都在講的詐騙問題，所以第一個我先幫基層的人力做請命。","第二個是有關於移民署的退休人力，我覺得他們的工作跟警察有點相近，但是他們也不在軍警消的退休機制，如果這個部分有問題，是不是可以先請警政署做一個整理，如果必要，我們就跟人事行政局做相關平台上的溝通，這個部分我願意協助，所以請移民署是不是可以先做整理？您不用回應太多啦，我其實就是請命，那您就看我剛才講的部分有沒有問題跟困難。"],["鐘署長景琨：好，謝謝委員的垂詢，我們配合辦理。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，但是記得一個月之內要給我相關的書面回應；如果有什麼困難，請跟我辦公室聯絡，我們就口頭上來溝通，好嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。","第二個部分是有關國家公園，因為我本身比較關注國家公園遊憩這一塊，當然我們知道國家公園很重要就是保存，會列入國家公園一定有它很重要的保存要素，但是對於人民的教育，遊憩的某種功能可以的話也是必要的嘛，這一段時間我們都關注到海洋，現在有一個海洋國家公園，應該業務上就是南方四島跟東沙環礁。"],["陳署長茂春：東沙環礁。"],["林委員倩綺：對，我想問的是，你們在這個部分的遊憩規劃有沒有相關比較積極一點的資訊？我直接問好了，除了南方四島要從澎湖去，可能有一些遊憩的可能性，我知道東沙環礁這些可能都要搭重帆，有一些業者在……"],["陳署長茂春：跟委員報告，東沙環礁現在並沒有開放一般人民可以去。"],["林委員倩綺：也就是我們重型帆船直接開過去，只要躲過你們的查緝，我們就可以去了，是這樣嗎？因為我這邊常常收到相關的資訊。我會這樣講是因為我也有想要開著船去啊，所以我想瞭解你們到底要怎麼辦，因為很多業者基本上自己都開去，我也看了很久。"],["陳署長茂春：東沙沒有開放。"],["林委員倩綺：那你們要不要規劃一下？畢竟大家都會……在遊憩這個部分，要不然你們是不是……"],["陳署長茂春：現在是這樣，跟委員報告，可能國安的部分是有一些考慮啦。"],["林委員倩綺：召委，不好意思，後面幾個部分我就直接講。","對於東沙的部分，是不是您可以在遊憩這個部分來跟我做主題上的溝通？"],["陳署長茂春：我們再到委員辦公室做說明。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。另外是史蹟的部分，尤其是原住民這塊，我目前看到你們在雪霸的部分有做史蹟保存區，請問還有其他史蹟嗎？可不可以給我一個list？目前在國家公園史蹟保存區這個規劃裡面，在原住民的區域到底有哪些list跟內容？好不好？"],["陳署長茂春：好，沒有問題。"],["林委員倩綺：第三個部分，你們都談SDG、ESG，除了你們現在在報告裡面加了很多灌木、喬木，你們怎麼決定的？然後在水下的部分，你們怎麼處理？"],["陳署長茂春：跟委員報告……"],["林委員倩綺：那就給我一個專題的報告，好嗎？"],["陳署長茂春：這可能是一個碳費的問題……"],["林委員倩綺：今天很多人談到碳費啦！"],["陳署長茂春：如果是綠碳，是八大的話……"],["林委員倩綺：您先不用解釋專業，就是再跟我做專案的報告，可以嗎？"],["陳署長茂春：我到委員辦公室先溝通啦！"],["林委員倩綺：最後是宗教的部分，我要提醒一下，在原鄉地區，大家知道原鄉地區的宗教比例，我們常常看到一些廟宇或是有人在……早上我有聽到國土署還有相關的單位可能會給宗教的部分一些支持，但是我要談的是原鄉，就是如果有相關的宗教，在原鄉的土地上就在那邊聚集了，這個部分我要請內政部特別幫我們注意，尤其在原鄉的部分。原鄉有定義，所以可能請您這邊瞭解一下，好不好？"],["王委員美惠：好啦！會後再看看有什麼問題。"],["林委員倩綺：所以原鄉的部分麻煩了，就是在宗教的部分。那姓名條例也請戶政司協助一下，我們的召委及鄭委員，好不容易在姓名條例的部分……"],["主席：姓名條例我們已經通過了。相關部分麻煩一下，提供一些文字資料給林倩綺委員，好嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：對，以上我講的這三個部分，OK？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝倩綺委員的質詢。謝謝部長、謝謝各署長。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘都已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員廖先翔、林俊憲、林德福、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝那移民署的這個部分我是不是可以針對以下那個如果有需要相關的報告是不是請各單位就在一個月左右至少給我一個回應就是有關於我問的這個主題那如果有必要請進一步我們口頭做個溝通那第一個部分我幫移民署的基層人員請命這是我自己本身有一些經驗那我後來發現這個移民署在基層的人員人力不太足"},{"start":102.376,"end":102.516,"text":"林倩綺議員"},{"start":118.353,"end":118.393,"text":"藝民署"},{"start":141.479,"end":163.926,"text":"同學那雖然我在教文委員會那我也知道在教育的這個部分我們現在會面臨很多國際生那這個內政委員會在過去在前幾天其實也處理過也有相關的這個討論那在學生的部分其實還在學校那學生延伸出來未來的社會問題我有確定的目前這個行政院的平台還沒有注意到這一點"},{"start":164.426,"end":188.207,"text":"所以我現在是先從移民署我相信已經直接第一線碰到了所以在基層能力的這個部分我先跟大家預告那個可能如果目前政策的走向還有方式上還沒有做一些處理的話這部分要先因應要不然未來我們的社會成本會很高那未來還有大家剛才也都在講的詐騙的問題所以第一個我先幫基層的人力來做請命"},{"start":190.189,"end":216.643,"text":"有關於移民署的退休人力因為他們的工作跟警察有點相近但是他們也不在軍警消的一個退休的機制上如果這個部分有問題那是不是可以先請警政署這邊做一個整理那如果有必要我們就跟人事行政局這邊如果有必要來做相關平台上的溝通那這個部分我願意協助所以請移民署是不是可以先做一個整理"},{"start":218.285,"end":220.566,"text":"第二個部分就是國家公園我本身比較關注國家公園油氣的這一塊"},{"start":244.199,"end":244.46,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":261.525,"end":289.565,"text":"這段時間我們都關注到這個海洋我們現在有個海洋國家公園嘛那應該業務上就是南方四島跟這個東沙環礁對不對那我今天想問的是說不知道你們在這個部分的這個油氣規劃有沒有相關的比較積極一點的資訊我直接問好了啦除了說南方四島要從澎湖去那可能有一些油氣的可能性那我知道東沙環礁這些我們可能都要搭重繁那有一些業者在"},{"start":290.265,"end":314.333,"text":"跟委員報告東沙環礁現在並沒有開放一般人民可以去所以也就是我們那個重型帆船直接開過去只要躲過你們的查緝我們就可以去了是這樣嗎因為我這邊常常收到相關的資訊我會這樣講是因為我也有想要開這船去那所以我想了解你們到底要怎麼辦因為很多業者基本上自己都在開去我也看了很久東沙沒有開放"},{"start":316.272,"end":337.472,"text":"所以那你們要不要規劃一下因為畢竟大家都會在油氣的這個部分要不然你們是不是這個部分現在是這樣跟委員報告這個可能國安的部分他是有一些考慮這樣好了那個不好意思因為我後面幾個我就直接講所以東沙的部分是不是您可以在油氣的這個部分來跟我做一個主題上的溝通"},{"start":339.253,"end":357.974,"text":"我們再到委員辦公室那個做說明好的然後另外是使跡的部分尤其是原住民這塊就是我目前看到你們在雪壩的部分有做使跡保存區那請問還有其他使跡可不可以給我一個list目前在國家公園使跡保存區這個規劃裡面在原住民的區域到底有哪些list跟內容"},{"start":359.936,"end":373.724,"text":"第三個部分是你們都談SDGs還有ESGs那除了你們現在在報告裡面加了很多這個灌木橋木你們怎麼決定的然後在水下的部分你們怎麼處理跟委員報告這可能是一個探會的問題"},{"start":377.659,"end":378.439,"text":"中校的部分我這邊要提醒一下"},{"start":393.888,"end":417.418,"text":"在原鄉地區我們看到很多大家知道原鄉地區的宗教比例但我們常常看到一些那個廟宇或者是舊人在早上因為有聽到這個什麼國土署還有這個有關於相關的單位可能會給這個宗教的部分一些支持但是我們可能要談的是原鄉就是如果有相關的"},{"start":419.419,"end":420.28,"text":"原鄉的部分麻煩"},{"start":439.736,"end":440.436,"text":"提供文字資料給林倩綺"}]}},{"id":"153301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133179ae9e63881b2664de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef8a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:19:50 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的數據來看的話"},{"start":28.955,"end":29.236,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":52.145,"end":53.506,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":73.755,"end":74.336,"text":"昨年執行50億這樣子的一個金額"},{"start":100.195,"end":124.507,"text":"這個我想問的你去核定了418件約大概56億的一個經費目前改善成果有沒有掌握因為去年執行那今天照理來講應該是執行完畢了應該跟委員報告其實大多數都完工那我們通常是這樣會做一件事情就是說完以後我們會請地方政府就它所改善的項目"},{"start":126.152,"end":126.372,"text":"有改善嗎?為什麼?"},{"start":144.101,"end":166.966,"text":"跟我們報告就我們從之前的這個一朝四入口的改善那邊就給自己一個經驗本來就有個指標是一改善一朝四入口可是現在事實上是針對校園周邊的話你們事實上是讓學校自己提出來學校就不是懂交通的人然後提出來的那我不知道你這418件的核定事實上是懂交通的人提出來還是說他們是看上網"},{"start":167.546,"end":180.955,"text":"有針對於我們的道安資訊平台裏邊的分析出來的熱點然後針對這個熱點然後去做那我要改善這個我們的街道裏邊那可能讓孩子有更好的通學環境有嗎"},{"start":197.606,"end":198.107,"text":"今天孩子為什麼不走入上學"},{"start":216.425,"end":216.525,"text":"主席"},{"start":233.909,"end":258.986,"text":"可以什麼時候給我這些相關的資料我們應該會後應該很快就可以統計出來給不過也是我們會持續要求就是說就像委員所講不能只做學校周圍那一段而是應該要延伸應該是通學環境所以當初行人交通安全設施條例也是本來我們是希望訂在法條裡邊最後事實上是用我們的說明來講"},{"start":260.868,"end":261.228,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":274.008,"end":274.208,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":294.5,"end":295.201,"text":"李慧琴"},{"start":324.74,"end":324.86,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":346.681,"end":368.466,"text":"所以我剛剛前面問說有沒有掌握那如果有掌握的話不會發生這種那人家只丟一件搞不好是五件十件都不知道你那前面的四百多件是不是也是有類似的狀況所以請國土署這邊要充分掌握下一頁最後就是我還是主張行任周遭的環境讓孩子給一條通學環境安全的路為什麼"},{"start":368.966,"end":385.098,"text":"佛州我們小學不走路呢我們的傷亡就是高中階段因為高中事實上是小學生的五倍國中是小學生的兩倍那我們大概沒有一個家庭經得起說孩子到高中階段的時候死傷然後呢國家也付出了非常高的成本"},{"start":385.649,"end":403.262,"text":"所以以通學環境為優化你要去做考量然後不要變成是地方民帶綁裝的工具你接下來還有400億要去執行所以我們一定會來檢討所以請你一個月給我們相關資料請吳署長辛苦一點謝謝林月琴委員"}]}},{"id":"153300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331f056ffe91364ead7de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fefe744949ebbc1455f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"13:10:51 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未來把建築圖整合在一起救災人員在初期的時候就能夠掌握到這個問題的計畫 要申請一個計畫來處理這個區塊這塊部分 另外一塊部分 這塊部分就是說現場的救災指揮車 通訊車 那個通訊指揮車專攻 當中有73台要買"},{"start":368.073,"end":368.393,"text":"因為我的時間有限"},{"start":392.813,"end":393.414,"text":"請警政署署長"},{"start":411.823,"end":422.895,"text":"好,有請我們警政署的張署長委員好好,張署長、署長、署長你好因為你來立法院,我們討一票,也跟你共諭,你請人謝謝委員但是,國人都怕忙,因為今天很多人都在接受這個打雜的問題"},{"start":430.343,"end":434.989,"text":"打炸的問題這是不管說我們執政黨也好不管說全國人民大家都是非常痛恨這個打炸所以打炸你今天跟接任我們的警政署署長未來你要怎樣去推動包括發布會的整合"},{"start":447.022,"end":447.142,"text":"主席"},{"start":464.945,"end":486.787,"text":"委員報告其實打造這個工作不光是只有內政部包括有通傳會還有這些金管會還有這些數位部法務部那我們現在打造的事法已經送到院方這邊來了希望這個法源能夠趕快通過之後讓這個源頭這些上架的這一些的"},{"start":487.648,"end":490.492,"text":"打擊面的部分我們會更精準的打擊那這是我上任最首要工作就是要打仗"},{"start":504.028,"end":526.329,"text":"好 謝謝我們期待署長到時候我們也會在立法院前面來幫助來協助你趕快成立你採用實名制才能真正的好職不然大家是全國大家都最痛快謝謝 謝謝委員我們期待 謝謝好跟周委我們兩位都是非常支持的謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13318d952b369f8d9247de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef621747a0e7dfbc9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:01:18 - 13:10:28","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":550,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T13:10:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T13:01:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1135,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時1分）謝謝主席。本席想邀請……我要稱副縣長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。沒關係，我們都很熟識，沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，恭喜副縣長、原台中縣的，也是副市長、高雄的，經歷非常多，也是同仁。部長，本席要跟你討論的是5月27號新竹市住宅大樓的問題，據聞是因為電纜線管線的問題，我們真的不忍心，我們消防員上樓搜救，當然難過的是兩名消防員發生了這樣的事情，因為他下樓的過程，據他們協會所說的是當他們下去的時候連五指都看不見。"],["劉部長世芳：因為有毒煙，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在這樣的情況之下，我們的消防人員在這麼困難的環境當中出現這樣的問題，我想有幾件事情可以去討論，也就是專業單位的調查、大樓的消防以及預警系統這一些相關的有沒有疏失，還有針對於他們的保命符就是氧氣瓶，它的氧氣量。很多消防隊員跟我講說老舊的有10公斤重，那很重的，他們穿那套衣服就已經很重了，又背10公斤，而且那個量還很少，現在科技進步，很輕才3公斤，它的量又可以增加。所以我們是不是應該檢視一下，全國目前的量到底夠不夠，還有在整個SOP流程當中，氧氣瓶已經有新的科技，我們應該預算要支持啊！他身上整套就已經10公斤了，而且這麼熱，我看我們的消防人員，帽子、面罩、衣服拿起來，整個身體都濕透了，我看得真的心都在淌血耶！所以我真的具體建議，消防人員保命的設備，至少他們的氧氣瓶，國家要他去救人如果連提供氧氣瓶都不夠、量都不夠，國家愧對這些消防人員啊！署長說明一下好嗎！"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝，我請署長來回應。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，署長說明。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員這麼關心消防。目前的空氣瓶的量是以6.8公升這個量來處理，差不多6.9公斤，這個量我們現在很多都已經改成FRP氣瓶。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在很輕，那都才3公斤而已。"],["蕭署長煥章：所以這個部分的調……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不用再背10公斤那麼重的。"],["蕭署長煥章：對，這已經有調整，上個禮拜院長也特別核定個裝的汰……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有啦，舊的也還有很多，你不要跟我說都已經改了，何時都已經改了？"],["蕭署長煥章：它的計畫已經准了，我們給縣市自己去做什麼樣的汰換，個裝的汰換，如果需要的話，所以這個部分我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：「如果需要「？當然需要！部長，上任新作為啦，全面檢視啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要再說「如果需要」……不一定給他啦，不要這樣子啦，都已經發生這種情況了。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，經費都已經確定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我想部長也是仁心仁術的人，對不對？全面去檢討啦，你把專案報上來啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：是，我們已經確定了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我相信部長一定會全力支持，要是沒有，我跟高金委員一起到行政院，去替你要預算。"],["蕭署長煥章：已經核定了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：核定怎樣？"],["蕭署長煥章：總共有19億元的經費要針對個裝、個人的裝備，剛才委員講的空氣瓶這個量如果說是有問題，它可以來做這方面的汰換、做調整，這個都已經確定額度跟金額，每個縣市都會有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我請你做整體的一個檢討去盤查一下，這個書面資料給本席。"],["劉部長世芳：好，軟硬體的部分都需要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個，我們的人進去伸手不見五指，就送去那個……現在的科技資訊，以前小林村因為斷了沒有辦法救，現在無人飛機可以去盤點看情況，到底位置在哪裡、聚焦在哪裡，我們是不是應該也要去檢討，可以導入科技的方式去救災？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我完全同意楊委員所說的部分，用什麼樣的科技的方式來協助救災是非常重要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？趕快預算給消防署，然後趕快去研擬，因為我從政以來打火兄弟是一直跟我站在一起，我也跟他們站在一起，這是城市英雄，我們一定要好好照顧，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你那個專案，第一個，科技要怎麼做；第二個，他們的裝備要怎麼去調整，你把書面資料給本席。","第二個議題是碳費的問題，部長你剛上任，現在營造業不動產大家都好緊張，鋼鐵因徵收碳費而價格上漲，會間接影響到房價。我們說高房價，年輕人買不到房子很緊張，你們的數字很奇怪，碳費影響混凝土的增加成本是3.2%，鋼筋是2.8%，混凝土加起來是建築的30%，但是你們所提供的很奇怪，告訴你我的數字，以一般鋼筋混凝土建築而言，碳費對建築成本影響大概0.9，不致造成房價上漲，並呼籲……這是你們的……部長、部長，你有沒有在備詢？怪不得昨天國會改革要……你有沒有聽到我講的問題？是什麼問題？"],["劉部長世芳：有，我現在在請教建築研究所有關碳費的部分，不管是鋼筋、混凝……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在告訴我對成本影響只有0.9%，不會影響……"],["劉部長世芳：報告楊委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可能的事情！我告訴你，沒關係，我告訴你，現在你們呼籲業者不要以碳費徵收為原則來哄抬物價，這個是對的，但是理事長告訴我們，淨零碳排，負責任的業者是自己去找，找什麼東西呢？針對綠建築標章，他們趕快去找、配對，混凝土要怎麼配對減碳，他們業者很負責任喔，所以這個加上來大概會是營業成本的兩成。你們說只有0.9%，部長，差距那麼大，你提出的碳費影響建築成本小於1%，這個數字跟實際上我們的業者是兜不起來的，而且影響甚大、差距很大，我請你也跟他們座談一下。我們是不是也來座談一下？因為有為的政府是，你的政策、你的數字是讓執行者可以執行，你同意這個論點吧？"],["劉部長世芳：完全同意，我跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然我們找一個時間來研討一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我們那個不是研討，我們要開類似這樣子的一個研討會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對呀。"],["劉部長世芳：我讓建築研究所跟所有的業者一起來研討，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟業者、理事會，他們有代表性。好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我也不完全認同所謂0.9%的這個部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要的時候你也通知本席，本席也要參加，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：近期趕快，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們到中部去的時候一定會通知委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你們大概多久會開會？"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大概多久會開會？"],["王所長榮進：我們馬上來處理，我們馬上來安排。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到時一定要通知我們。"],["王所長榮進：好。"],["主席：時間也讓楊瓊瓔委員知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再一個議題給他就好，30秒就好。"],["主席：因為我們還有下一個會議，如果你要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我知道，謝謝。因為部長新到任，都更事業優惠貸款從2006年1月份上路迄今，額度是2,000億元，長達18年來只有幾件？59件。最後一次申請，2012年的金額是526.47億元，而且是承貸銀行的自有資金。所以部長，這個功課給你，為什麼你有都更的這個優惠貸款高達2,000億元，但是沒有人要跟你申請，你去討論……"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼有錢而人家不跟你申請，原因在哪裡，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們……"],["主席：署長，麻煩你用書面回應給……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼改善，你把書面資料給本席，來協助業者嘛！"],["王所長榮進：這個我們會找國發會談，錢編在它那邊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，好不好？都不利用，2,000億不用，這個邏輯很奇怪！署長謝謝。"],["主席：署長謝謝，我們用書面回應給楊瓊瓔委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不好，部長，把你們研議好的書面資料給本席。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。也謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝。","繼續請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","黃仁、黃仁、黃仁委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","李昆澤、李昆澤、李昆澤委員不在。","請吳琪銘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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他們穿衣服衫就一定很重的又賣10公斤而且那個量還很少現在科技進步很輕3公斤他的量又可以增加所以我們是不是應該去檢視一下"},{"start":116.34,"end":127.125,"text":"全國目前我們的量到底夠不夠還有在整個SOP流程當中我們的氧氣品"},{"start":128.598,"end":152.543,"text":"有新的科技我們應該要預算要支持啊你叫他已經整個身體就已經10公斤了而且這麼熱我看我們的消防人員喔沒辦法拿起來面罩拿起來衣服拿起來整張身體都淋上去我真的看得心都在淌血所以我真的具體建議我們的消防人員的設備保命的至少連那個他們的氧氣瓶"},{"start":157.15,"end":160.972,"text":"目前的空氣瓶的量是以6.8公升這個量來處理那差不多6.9公斤這個量我們現在很多都已經改成FRP的氣瓶"},{"start":185.387,"end":194.496,"text":"現在很輕鬆,那些都頭有3公斤而已,不用再10公斤那麼重的。最近上個禮拜院長也特別核定,各種的台灣,如果需要的話。"},{"start":205.507,"end":207.989,"text":"若沒有我跟高軍一起到行政院去聽你要預算"},{"start":235.117,"end":236.258,"text":"總共有19億的經費要針對各莊"},{"start":239.912,"end":264.579,"text":"那各種個人裝備：剛才委員講的：空氣瓶這個量：如果說是有問題：他可以來做這方面：來做調整：這個都已經確定了：額度跟金額：部長我請你做整體的一個：檢討：去盤查一下：這一個：第二個：我們的人進去：身手不見五指：那我們現在科技："},{"start":269.127,"end":272.55,"text":"趕快去預算給消防署然後趕快去研擬"},{"start":294.907,"end":301.084,"text":"因為泡沫那天是我從政以來一直跟我站在一起我也跟他們站在一起"},{"start":302.073,"end":328.114,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":329.963,"end":352.381,"text":"銅鐵徵收碳費價格上漲會間接影響到房價我們說高房價年輕人買不到房子很緊張但是你們的數字很奇怪碳費影響混凝土的這個增加成本是3.2 鋼金是2.8混凝加起來是建築的這個30%但是你們的提供很奇怪"},{"start":353.041,"end":353.221,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":368.746,"end":373.449,"text":"你現在告訴我說影響的成本只有0.9% 不會影響 不可能的事情 我告訴你沒關係 我告訴你"},{"start":389.98,"end":395.603,"text":"現在你們會議業者不要以攤位徵收為原則來分台物價 這個是對的但是我們的理事長告訴我們 經營碳排 他們負責任的業者自己去找找什麼人呢 他們去找喔 找針對於綠建築標章他們趕快去找 配對 混凝土配對 要怎樣 減碳"},{"start":413.493,"end":423.38,"text":"他們業者很負責任所以這個加上來大概會是營業成本的兩成你們說的只有0.9部長差距那麼大所以本席要請部長你提出的攤配影響建築成本小於1這個數字跟實際上我們的業者是兜不起來的而且影響甚大差距很大我請你也跟他們座談一下"},{"start":440.012,"end":440.152,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":460.435,"end":460.775,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":481.249,"end":487.412,"text":"我們馬上來處理我們馬上來安排馬上來安排馬上來安排我再一個議題給他就好30秒就好我知道謝謝都更的優惠因為部長新到喔部長都更事業的優惠貸款從2006年1月份上路你是2000億18年來只有幾件59件"},{"start":506.781,"end":511.845,"text":"金額最後一次申請2012年是526.47億而且是銀行貸自由資金那所以部長這個功課給你為什麼你有都更的這個優惠貸款高達2000億但是沒有人要給你申請你去討論為什麼有錢人家不給你申請原因在哪裡好不好你順便這樣給北京你怎麼改善給北京"},{"start":534.002,"end":550.265,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"153298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331c44b625c8b31f795de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef8466b1d63248431c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:52:48 - 13:01:08","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":500,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T13:01:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:52:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1095,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時52分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好，很高興看到您。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：在這邊有很多的小問題要問，所以我可能會講得比較簡單，第一個部分，我們最近有來修正地制法第三十三條，我去年有提這個案子，我的初衷很簡單，就是我們的法裡面遺漏了山地原住民的部分，也就是說，依照過去我們的法，像直轄市到達一定人口後依照比例會有平地原住民的議員以及山地原住民的議員，可是在我們的縣市部分卻忘記了沒有山地鄉的山地原住民，他們選不出他們的山地議員，所以很高興在這一次我們很多委員都有提案，目前已經審竣。我只是要提出另外在我們的地制法也有去處理一個問題，就是因應目前有很多縣市因為都市化、少子化、人口的流動等原因所以造成它的級距有變化，會影響到很多的議員席次，所以我們也把它修進來。因為很多人在詢問，我們也不知道要怎麼提供比較正確的訊息，所以內政部是不是可以綜合各版本的內容，然後到辦公室來給我一份修正的文字跟試算？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝伍委員的關心，這個沒有問題，我們也知道，有關地制法第三十三條的部分即將要進入黨團的協商，那我們綜合各委員的意見，第一個，我們要保障山地原住民，不管有沒有山地鄉、山地聚落，他們本身有參政權，這是一個。然後再來就是總額的計算，關於人口的規範是不是可以往下調降，這個我們也列入考慮，同時我們在處理總額的時候，關於原住民的民意代表，不管是議員或是未來的鄉鎮代表，看在修法通過以後的第1屆能不能用過渡式的方式，不要讓他覺得我的席次怎麼突然不見了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，這要給我們清楚的資訊。"],["劉部長世芳：對，關於這些算法，包括有加1個或是加2個還是少1個或少2個，我們在把人口比例算清楚以後會跟伍委員做一個完整的報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。那第二個部分也是跟修法有關，我有去修財劃法，就是關於都市原區、直轄市的原區，那財委會對我提財劃法的修法也已經在審查中，但是因為它同步要在地制法第八十三條之三來修，那我簡單說明，就是在六都合併之後，原住民的鄉、區曾經一度失去公法人的地位，在2014年我們又把地制法第八十三條之七修正回來，恢復它的公法人地位，但是有一些東西就落掉了，在財源部分規定直轄市改制前各該山地鄉前三年度稅課收入平均數，導致我們這些直轄市原區的稅課收入驟降變成零，八成都需要仰賴市政府的補助，所以在這邊我有提出修正地制法第八十三條之三，就是山地原住民自治區的財政自治事項要含括升格前的稅捐、公共債，要這樣子才合理，因為這是落掉了，部長，對這個部分希望內政部也主動積極來處理，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：對，因為它的主政機關是在於我們的財稅單位……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["劉部長世芳：還有地方政府，就是之前的地方政府，那我們來跟他們瞭解一下他們的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是地制法第八十三條之三。"],["劉部長世芳：對，如果他們沒有其他不同的意見或是有這個扞格的部分的話，我們是樂觀其成。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。那第三個部分就是想要請教，我們也特別感謝之前在非都市土地使用管制規則附表裡面納入了露營場，讓小型露營場得以合法化，但是我們也知道國土計畫法要上路，就是要廢掉這個非都，所以在這邊我就是想要知道，這個一旦廢止，是不是會回到國土計畫法，因為時間的關係，我是想可以到辦公室來說明，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：這個其實有一個大方向，就是在國土計畫上路以後，原有合法的使用都可以繼續維持，沒有動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那很多落在國土保育區、農業發展區的露營場，大家也都覺得遲疑，不知道能不能持續經營，對於相關的子法、目前的輔導方向，都來跟我做說明好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。另外，關於宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產的部分，我聽到很多人都跟我說來不及，我想部長您應該也很清楚，所以我是聽到應該會延長，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，沒錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我要問另外一個問題，就是當時我們在原保地的這些教會並沒有一起處理進去，你們那時候告訴我們要在我們的原保條例去處理，可是我們的原保條例現在也不知道什麼時候會通過，所以我想要請教部長，這個部分你們打算怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：我想如果這是宗教團體的話，就可以納入我們剛剛所說的，就是在延長上面看怎麼樣做比較好的輔導規範。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我知道會延長，我講的是原保地，因為我們沒有被納入。"],["劉部長世芳：如果這是個案問題的話，我到委員辦公室再瞭解一下問題的所在，好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。主席，可以再問一個問題嗎？不好意思，原住民嘛！關於殯葬量能提升計畫，因為我上一屆一進來，我有講原住民好不容易可以接受從室內葬改為室外土葬，現在又要接受火化、放靈骨塔，我要講的是，那個時候我說這個經費原鄉要搶都搶不到，編得太少，所以後來有編了111到114年度，好了！在這一屆我也要問，因為現在來問的人都說到114年的都已經匡完了，請問會不會延續擴編？"],["劉部長世芳：對於原住民這樣子的殯葬設施，其實它不是納骨塔啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不是，是納骨牆。"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們會支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們會繼續擴編嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：擴編我不敢講，但是會繼續支持讓那個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為部長您知道嗎？現在來講的都說到114年沒有了、沒有空間了。"],["劉部長世芳：就是它完成程序，譬如說原民的部落還有到原民會同意的話，那內政部會支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，那警政署的就給我報告就好，因為我想要問進度。我一開始本來一直希望警政署設原專班，後來謝謝你們告訴我說可以提高，之前是提高到3.62%，但是我最近拿到的報告怎麼又下降變3.5%，109年告訴我3.67%，還會下降！都沒有關係，現在是要開源，我要問進度，就是辦理特考的部分，因為聽起來當時警政署是願意放在一般警察增設一個原民的部分，考選部本來是尊重，但是他們是比較建議要放在國家考試的原民特考裡面，都沒有關係，署長，我只想知道到底……最後拍板定案要快。"],["張署長榮興：事後跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，也是到辦公室報告，因為我要知道到底你們要採用哪一個版本、進度如何？好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝署長。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。謝謝部長、謝謝署長。繼續我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe﹚"},{"start":96.067,"end":108.214,"text":"提供比較正確的訊息所以是不是可以綜合各版的內容提出的修正文字跟試算可不可以到辦公室來給我一份謝謝吳委員的關心這個沒有問題我們也知道說有關地質法33條的部分即將要進入黨團的協商"},{"start":114.978,"end":141.212,"text":"綜合各家委員的意見 第一個我們要保障山地原住民不管有沒有山地鄉山地聚落他們本身有參政權這是一個再來就是總額的計算人口的規範是不是可以往下調降這個我們也列入考慮同時我們在處理總額的時候所謂的原住民的不管是議員或是未來的鄉鎮代表在第一屆要"},{"start":142.373,"end":164.878,"text":"施法通過以後能不能用過度式的方式不要讓他講說怎麼突然我的席次不見了這些的算法包括有加一個或是加兩個或是少一個或少兩個我們再把人口比例算清楚以後會跟委員做一個完整的報告那第二個部分也是跟修法有關我有去修才化法就是關於"},{"start":166.218,"end":191.015,"text":"杜氏園區 直轄市的園區那財委會那個部分呢 財化法的我的那個修法也已經在審查中但是因為他同步要在地制法的第83條之3來修那我簡單說明就是由六都合併之後原住民的鄉區他曾經一度失去公法人地位"},{"start":191.815,"end":215.613,"text":"但是在2014年我們又把地制法第83條之七修正回來恢復它的公法人地位但是有一些東西就落掉了齁因為裁員的部分我們直轄市改制前各該三地鄉前三年度課收入平均數導致我們這些直轄市的園區它的稅課收入呢驟降變零"},{"start":217.034,"end":218.195,"text":"對 因為他的主政機關是在於我們的財稅單位"},{"start":244.172,"end":246.593,"text":"第三個部分就是想要請教因為我們之前"},{"start":264.878,"end":291.776,"text":"我特別感謝就是在非都土地使用管制規則復表裡面去納入了露營場讓小型露營場得以合法化但是我們也知道國土計劃法要上路就是要廢掉這個非都所以在這邊我就是想要說如果說一旦廢止是不是會回到國土計劃法那因為時間的關係我是想說到辦公室來說明好不好"},{"start":295.459,"end":313.014,"text":"國路加上路以後原有合法的使用都可以繼續維持沒有動那很多落在國土保育區農業發展區的露營場大家也都抱著遲疑能不能持續經營那相關的執法他的一個目前輔導方向都來跟我做說明好不好"},{"start":313.635,"end":327.104,"text":"好 謝謝那另外就是那個宗教團體以自然人民益的部分我聽到很多很多都是跟我說來不及啦我想部長您應該也很清楚所以我是聽到說應該會延長對吧但是我要問另外一個問題就是當時我們元寶地"},{"start":335.359,"end":362.74,"text":"我們的這些教會他當時沒有一起處理進去可是你們那時候告訴我們說要在我們的元寶條例去處理我們元寶條例現在也不知道什麼時候所以我想要請教部長這個部分你們會打算怎麼處理我想如果這是宗教團體的話就可以納入我們剛剛所說的那個在延長上面看怎麼樣做比較好的輔導規範對我知道會延長我講的是元寶地因為我們沒有被納入"},{"start":365.88,"end":366.521,"text":"冰葬量能提升計畫"},{"start":382.004,"end":408.238,"text":"上一屆一進來我有講原住民好不容易可以接受從室內帳改為室外土帳現在又要接受火化放靈骨塔那我要講的是那個時候我說這個經費現在原鄉要搶都搶不到編的太少所以後來有編了111到114好了那這一屆我也要問因為現在來問的都說到114的都已經匡網了請問會不會延續擴編"},{"start":411.67,"end":414.454,"text":"對於原住民這樣的殯葬設施其實它不是納古塔應該只是一個牆我們會支持會繼續擴編嗎擴編我不敢講但是會繼續支持因為部長您知道嗎"},{"start":427.09,"end":427.851,"text":"警政署提供提高到3.662"},{"start":453.51,"end":453.75,"text":"李慧琼"},{"start":469.178,"end":469.338,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":488.338,"end":488.719,"text":"謝謝副部長 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讓台灣更好所以我們內政委員會未來可能會討論很多的法案包括不再集投票是不是涉及到了中國包括討論到中配的年限的問題要比照外配但是這中間要如何避免有國安的疑慮"},{"start":261.431,"end":271.066,"text":"就是說我們怎麼做我們一定要先修復到我們台灣台灣的利益你沒得顧好你自己要去尋找在中國的幸福行不通的"},{"start":272.028,"end":286.884,"text":"所以部長我跟你講就是說你未來你就會面對很多的挑戰我剛剛只是列舉了兩個我知道因為你身為內政部你要掌管的事情這麼多但是我覺得堅守我們顧好台灣讓我們的一代我們的年輕人可以幸福發展這才是我們的目標好不好"},{"start":293.837,"end":314.933,"text":"好 我想委員講得非常的正確 青鳥行動就像您剛所提到的這個預言的部分那其實我也非常感動的部分就是說除了台北市的現場以外 其他的外縣市不管是在公共場合裡面 他們所表達出來不管是透過網路的表達 你會發現到他們勇於發出他們的聲音"},{"start":315.413,"end":331.307,"text":"我想就是我們的下一代年輕世代裡面的面對未來公共政策討論的時候他們不會懼怕不會說上面有一個老大哥在看著你所以會懼怕他們勇於表達所以我覺得這樣子的一個新世代讓我們非常感動沒有錯 這個青鳥行動就是說我們一代大家都是勇敢大家可以把意見說出來而且他們在"},{"start":336.092,"end":336.252,"text":"蔡易餘委員"}]}},{"id":"153294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331d599dc93ce244e8dde1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef330ffbcd7353171c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:27:45 - 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劃裡面就包含兒童遊戲場所以希望這個部分今天也非常高興就是部長願意一起來我們來制定相關的手冊其實我要講的是說我們不是要告訴他們"},{"start":321.744,"end":322.164,"text":"張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"153292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13316a6bb987ff41fcb5de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef1a9e9319cd73d1645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:15:56 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就是一個延續的作業現在問題就出現了就是說現在基層消防員他們希望的跟原來的政策立場有嚴重的衝突嗎"},{"start":105.114,"end":120.448,"text":"我現在還沒有說誰對誰錯喔那您作為新的部長如果要延續新的政策立場的話就舊的政策立場的話你有沒有想過你要怎麼樣跟這些基層的消防員溝通讓他們理解而且可以接受"},{"start":120.976,"end":124.599,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢我剛所提到的這是基本的立場也就是說不管說消防員工會要不要組成他們的一些想法我們會先來聽聽說他們想法所要達到的目標是什麼如果這個目標用現在的消防法制定這個職安專章無法達到"},{"start":141.071,"end":160.298,"text":"第二階段我們可以做什麼事所以我先建議就是說我們的次長有跟這些消防員工會的弟兄們先溝通他們需要我們幫忙的在哪裡什麼時候溝通的前兩天那他們的結論是什麼是接受你們把他放在消防法裡面放專章嗎"},{"start":161.666,"end":190.442,"text":"我們所謂的溝通就是先表達我們現在可以做到的還有他們要求的部分溝通不會只有一次溝通不會只有一次但是沒有關係啦部長我覺得你剛上任這是一個很重大的課題因為其實吵滿久的從去年的時候他們表達他們心聲的時候其實你如果看整個歷程一開始他們還沒有踩這麼硬但是他們後面踩得越來越硬"},{"start":191.718,"end":197.483,"text":"我要幫他們說一句話因為他們一次又一次的被騙一次又一次的失望"},{"start":198.806,"end":224.092,"text":"因為我一直長期在追蹤他們的訴求那也希望幫我們這些打火英雄能夠比較好的環境比較好的法規去確保這些悲劇不會再發生所以我說我長期觀察他們立場為什麼踩得越來越硬到今天已經變成要全面適用職安法這個是部長你接下來要面對重要的課題我今天只是把它點出來但我希望做到一件事"},{"start":224.972,"end":249.954,"text":"多傾聽他們的聲音 多傾聽他們的聲音因為 如果到最後 無論如何他們還是希望適用治安法你們還是希望交防法設專章而兩個規範架構比起來保護的程度有差異的話那接下來會很辛苦所謂會很辛苦 我指的是部長你會很辛苦因為接下來就可以預期兩邊要對撞了"},{"start":251.345,"end":266.367,"text":"部長我希望你可以聽得懂我今天在這邊質詢這個問題的時候委員所講的部分我能夠接受的部分就是第一個我希望消防法裡面的職安專章跟消防員這些主公會想要主公會的弟兄們所指導的"},{"start":267.128,"end":267.168,"text":"委員：黃國昌"},{"start":295.111,"end":324.259,"text":"我們在第一次接觸的時候有提出他們的想法還有他們對我們的想法的時候我們未來還會持續溝通那這裡面就是像委員所說的有共識我們再繼續往前走所以我剛有跟委員提到說這個沒有辦法一步到位那既然沒有辦法一步到位的話先放下成見有沒有什麼是基本需要趕快做的就好像說我們消防員他不幸來罹難那罹難之後我們自己消防署內部是不是在火掉"},{"start":324.639,"end":330.221,"text":"這個我都同意啦時間的關係我知道部長剛上任你需要一些時間去溝通最後確定你的政策立場我今天其實是很善意的提出來提醒因為我希望你們到時候消防法那個專章如果你們還是採取這個政策立場的話"},{"start":354.031,"end":380.452,"text":"能夠說服這些打火英雄給他們保障是足夠的那要不然的話我們一定跟這些消防弟兄站在一起推動把他們納入治安法那最後一分鐘的時間我請一下署長消防署署長署長我只跟你提醒一件事你上個禮拜我知道你去南部見了一個算是國民黨的前大老縣長"},{"start":382.559,"end":406.699,"text":"這個事情我知道但我要跟你說的事情是說你與其帶著地方消防局的局長去拜會那種所謂的大佬想要用透過私下戳的方式去勸阻這些消防弟兄站出來爭取他們的權益去組工會這樣的事情我給您的建議是多花時間跟這些消防弟兄相處"},{"start":407.66,"end":427.74,"text":"因為我後來 得到的訊息是那位大佬直接就給你打槍啊直接給你打槍啊所以我們是支持消防員啊支持他的主公會啊怎麼可能去答應你所提出來這樣的請求人事實第一我都有但我想你做了這個事情我"},{"start":430.599,"end":455.638,"text":"這樣說好了啦我今天還是很善意的提醒你與其花時間去搞這種事情多花一點時間跟消防弟兄好好的溝通去了解他們需要什麼怎麼樣保障他們的權益比你帶著兩個地方消防局的局長跑去跟人家私下橋結果還被打槍好這樣可以嗎收到 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331ac7f7af76a5ea377de1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fef016580a9b45654d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:01:33 - 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對不對8年20萬戶嘛 對不對但是如果是算新建的不算所謂的包租代管或其他的部分是多少戶"},{"start":139.619,"end":141.32,"text":"新建包租代管跟租金補貼合計覆蓋要100萬戶"},{"start":166.771,"end":190.573,"text":"如果不算蔡英文總統的部分的話賴清德總統的8年的部分是13萬戶所以換言之12加13就說25萬那我就要想請教一下那您知道嗎事實上蔡英文總統以12萬戶來說她就是要把她算成完成承諾的話要加上新建中的4萬戶對不對"},{"start":192.89,"end":196.733,"text":"所以換言之蔡英文總統所謂的12萬戶 有9萬戶其實是要靠誰來完成要是誰任內完工 要靠誰在任內完工"},{"start":221.282,"end":226.977,"text":"其實他都已經在興建中 我說要靠誰 在誰任內才有辦法完工嘛對 誰 就是在賴總統的任內"},{"start":229.525,"end":251.765,"text":"所以實質上12萬戶3萬戶蓋好了那9萬戶還要賴總統來努力可是賴總統另外又加了13萬戶那我想請問八年任內真的可以嗎蓋完還是說今天一樣跟賴蔡英文總統一樣蓋好是四分之一剩下四分之三可能要留待下一任總統"},{"start":252.967,"end":273.029,"text":"其實也跟委員報告了 其實我們的目標就是每年大概要蓋2萬5到3萬戶我要講的是說把它蓋好了 因為事實上為什麼這樣問因為真正你能夠提供給所謂的住人 給弱勢經濟者要抑制房價 那蓋完以後才會發揮這個功能 對不對"},{"start":275.231,"end":292.528,"text":"所以我們要看到我剛剛前面為什麼講那個四個指標數就是人民的痛苦是即刻感受到的所以我想要請教一下部長就是說這13萬戶加上蔡英文總統這個已經開動了可能還沒完成的那9萬戶加上多少戶13加922"},{"start":297.572,"end":310.94,"text":"22萬戶有辦法在8年任期內就是完工不是讓下一任繼續施工還是說今天有多少戶是有把握在這8年任期內完工然後多少是不是要留四分之三給下一任總統部長"},{"start":315.141,"end":336.211,"text":"羅委員的垂詢我覺得非常講到重點我們盡量來完成但是你所提到的部分在賴總統的任內我們要想辦法來解決關鍵的所在什麼叫關鍵的所在土地如何取得我跟你講部長我大概知道因為真的不容易這個我知道可是一旦目標喊出來因為總統誠信為重"},{"start":338.072,"end":338.092,"text":"：羅智強："},{"start":357.655,"end":381.051,"text":"那你蔡英文總統剩下的9萬戶那這8年內的完工目標是多少以及賴清德總統plus那13萬戶完工目標是多少但我還沒有質詢到你另外一部分因為蔡英文本來說的是20萬戶他後來要把包租貸款還有其他加進去嘛可是賴清德總統其實更宏偉喔那其實蔡英文是加包租貸款點點點是20萬戶嘛對不對那賴清德是多少戶"},{"start":385.017,"end":385.137,"text":"羅智強委員"}]}},{"id":"153288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331ee2f2f13121f8e0dde1b7f2d659cc489711abfcd1df00fefdf83089e6eba09255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:44:54 - 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謝謝劉部長部長好部長也算是我們立院的前輩不過今天本席真的以嚴肅的心情一定要救教因為我知道過去您在擔任委員的時候特別關心消防員的權益2019年消防法相關的修法退讓權也是您這邊有大力促成本席先予以肯定但是記不記得"},{"start":31.678,"end":51.404,"text":"您在之前質詢內政部長徐國勇的時候,當時就有提到消防員人力不足、短缺的問題。到目前為止,現在您上任了,現在的消防員還缺多少?總共的員額缺多少?是吧?我是不是請?來。一千三百多位。一千三百多位。部長,我們什麼時候能夠補齊?"},{"start":55.832,"end":84.238,"text":"我們剛剛署長在面對委員質詢的時候有特別提到從明年跟後年開始我們希望每一年補足的人數是1000人左右希望在明後年可以補足但是這中間我們還是有很多努力的方案就像我剛剛跟委員報告的部分就是說我們希望考試院能夠協助我們讓我們的消防員的考試能夠入局率提高那這樣子我們在徵集比較多願意參加這個消防大家團隊的時候會比較快速一點"},{"start":85.168,"end":93.255,"text":"但是部長有沒有去了解您說好明年後年所以有把握明年後年兩年時間可以把一千三百多位的人格補給"},{"start":95.555,"end":116.087,"text":"目前考試正在考試6月份會考那考完以後10月份會二次停測驗明年1月份會入訓那後年1月份會節約分發後年才分發對一年我們訓練時間是一年所以現在做的事情真的能夠補到"},{"start":117.788,"end":146.65,"text":"然後這兩年還有有一些消防員代退退休離開所以真的要補齊什麼時候能夠補齊我這樣直接問部長你任內有沒有信心能夠把消防員的員額補齊因為這在2019年你當時質詢內政部長徐國勇的時候徐國勇其實也是跟你講一樣的話他跟你講說委員我們現在在訓練委員我們每年固定多少人但時空背景一過去之後缺額還是在啊"},{"start":147.824,"end":148.584,"text":"為什麼消防員會有缺額：有可能其中一個原因"},{"start":175.074,"end":195.787,"text":"就確實過去到現在不管是火神的眼淚也好或說消防員他們的一個權益也好我就比較直接請教2023年的時候當時因為大火發生消防員也有想要組工會的一個聲音當時您時任幹事長您講到的是說態度保留"},{"start":196.778,"end":206.91,"text":"所以也被外界質疑是說這就是執政黨的態度那您現在擔任部長是不是您部長任那一天消防員要組工會這樣的事情是不可能的"},{"start":208.093,"end":227.844,"text":"我想這樣講 太武斷了 第一個目前 您願意考慮您給我30秒鐘 第一個我們請我們的次長先跟這些消防員促進權力工會的這些消防員或者是有消防員身份或是一些其他的教授學者們先溝通"},{"start":229.165,"end":252.86,"text":"就是我們所在乎的消防員組工會最後的這個真正的目標第一個當然是保障消防員自己本身的權益那這個權益第一個保障在安全上面的維護能不能做到那事實上從這幾次的火災看出來在安全維護上面的我們做的不夠好不夠精準那我們會來努力改進同時我剛剛也跟我們的消防署長講我們可能要朝著科技化還有"},{"start":255.822,"end":277.968,"text":"我們未來在做火災調查的時候不要只有調查火災發生的原因還要調查消防員進去出來或是所有在執行的層次當中有沒有哪一些是現行的科技或是現行的這個制度上面我們可以補足的部分因為我們必須要跟這些關心消防員權益跟關心消防員的朋友們能夠對話的話一定要端出我們自己想要做什麼"},{"start":283.769,"end":300.388,"text":"如果最後只是一個消防員組工會,他產生的另外一個結果就是參加工會的人未來可能是有規避權、避讓權或者是其他的罷工權等等這些那你這些是不是讓那一些沒有參與的人,他反而在救災上面更吃緊"},{"start":301.709,"end":326.515,"text":"這個部分其實站在全國處理消防員的業務或是處理消防員的權益上面必須要做一個權衡所以我們很務實的面對他對我們要非常完整的面對他來處理這個方案那我們會繼續努力我就是給你時間完整的說明所以我現在要指出昨天您去新竹的這兩位永銷的靈堂前面上香致意"},{"start":329.173,"end":356.921,"text":"這一次這兩位永銷一位年之19年一位年之14年這樣的狀況就如同2019年我們雖然有修正所謂的退讓權但是消防員在第一線遇到火災的時候他們其實根本沒有退避空間嘛那你也提到是說要加強科技的部分那就變成是說當消防員進入到火災現場的時候其實他們不知道他們面臨到什麼樣的一個狀況"},{"start":358.43,"end":385.724,"text":"我個人認為其實這兩位永孝也許他們不應該在這一次他們也許可以避免不要上身火寒那是不是就代表說我們真的做得不夠那再者更科技的方法我們已經講過多久了沒有辦法有一個確實各縣市都有辦法的一個都有辦法來去做能夠掌握火場的一個狀況還有最終"},{"start":389.502,"end":410.392,"text":"如果現在工會他沒有辦法一步到位但至少我們消防的消防法的職安專章現在已經要訂立了因為我前兩天質詢勞動部部長的時候勞動部何部長跟我們講是說內政部現在在做研擬那我們要說是不是能夠把消防員納入職安法"},{"start":411.243,"end":421.633,"text":"因為過去來講最重要的是職安法才能夠面臨到不管是我們的這些人員的訓練我們這些人員的工作權益我們這些人員的相關的職業運作的狀況才能夠獲得保障"},{"start":428.639,"end":446.108,"text":"可是如果說你沒有納入治安法的話我們消防法的主管機關是誰是中央是我們消防署地方是消防局那我們相關的僱主也是消防署跟消防局那就會有球員監裁判的狀況所以我現在比較想直接請教什麼時候我們的"},{"start":454.335,"end":456.036,"text":"消防法執案專章可以出來"},{"start":478.226,"end":503.408,"text":"部長 我只想請教現在在這次的新竹大火裡面有一個狀況就是現在的豪宅越蓋越多有很多縣市的雲梯車其實是不足的所以我們才會看到這次的新竹市的大火到最後居然是要拜託民間企業用吊車來去協助把高樓層的民眾給疏散我覺得這未來可能面臨到這個就是設備的部分"},{"start":504.469,"end":531.237,"text":"有沒有盤點過以相關現在新興的這些區域他的豪宅越蓋越高20幾樓30幾樓的住宅匹匹皆是那這雲梯車的部分還有哪些縣市有缺報告委員除了現有的縣車雲梯車以外未來幾年這個計畫等於核定會整個補充到39部的雲梯車包括新竹市會有50公尺一部"},{"start":533.154,"end":538.797,"text":"本席也特別要強調是說在很多新興的區域也都需要有這樣子一個高樓層雲梯車來確保相關人員的安全我們這些東西都是有備無患"},{"start":559.673,"end":559.833,"text":"洪孟楷議員"}]}},{"id":"153287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331d4838a9b7016c2a474cb636d3605ada8711abfcd1df00fefe33ea871862e03655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:18:40 - 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們規劃討論中,然後會有交通部來跟大家說明規劃討論中,然後是會有好消息,對不對?會有交通部來跟大家說明還沒辦法確定是不是好消息,還是會是好消息,由交通部來公佈?"},{"start":162.281,"end":176.927,"text":"你說剛剛是講你們已經有規劃嘛事實上你如果從總統的就職演說特別把這個提出來是那講的是陸生這一塊教育部已經講了嘛對不對那顯然就是我們自己有規劃而且是往正面在走了嘛對我們有自己的有自己的規劃什麼時候有好消息"},{"start":180.29,"end":203.848,"text":"什麼時候?你給我一個時辰,你們本來就有時間表嘛對不對?你剛也提了不用等大陸什麼有善意或者他們的動作啊你剛不是這樣講嗎?我應該是這樣講,很多人把這個這個觀光團或是陸生當作說兩邊有沒有善意但是其實我們這樣一路看下來特別是從520到現在其實對方"},{"start":206.104,"end":211.305,"text":"我會問你是因為各界一直在有期待而且各界一直傳說最近有好消息所以我才問你嘛是最近會有好消息嘛對不對你講的就已經有時間表啦"},{"start":228.301,"end":246.338,"text":"為什麼不能講,你講一下現在所有的觀光業者跟很多民眾在等你的答案我們陸委會是參與規劃討論,但是組織的單位是交通部你們當交通部,你們幫他做了決定,有時間表了,要等交通部來我們沒有幫他們做決定,我們參與討論,一起討論其實腦袋是陸委會"},{"start":252.284,"end":270.677,"text":"很多人在關心還台的這個經驗,其實更加緊張,我覺得對台灣,當然那個租款比較安全,一定要先顧到,裡面我覺得現在挑戰最大,其實是大陸的經濟越飛越近,對不對,越飛越近,它飛到41海里的時候,那時候距離我們總統府大概就4到5分鐘,"},{"start":271.658,"end":275.919,"text":"因為事實上共機角一離開基地我們國安跟國防單位都可以知道他們大概飛的一個狀況所以透過這些聯合的情報監偵都可以掌握他們的動態"},{"start":307.931,"end":325.082,"text":"這部分我應該也知道了就我們的國軍不管在水面的兵力或空中的兵力在應處跟中國的這些戰機進階的攔截過程當中都有一套SOP的作業程序而且地面的雷達管制也都非常的精準在防止各種突發狀況的發生"},{"start":327.003,"end":349.186,"text":"兩岸最近還有一個非常熱的一個題目,就是我們台灣的藝人啊,最近被逼著要表態,對不對?非常多,阿信啊,五月天阿信在北京鳥巢的演唱會提到說我們是中國人嘛,那看起來台灣很多人就開罵了,就開罵了,可是到目前為止,因為大陸那些小粉紅一直在逼啊,我們已經有78位藝人已經表態了。"},{"start":349.963,"end":378.593,"text":"我看這個賴總統自己也覺得不捨嘛他說人在屋簷下,盼國人給予諒解跟體諒阿富汗主席柯文哲也講了他說必須要尊重表演藝術者不要以政治表忠的方式破壞兩岸關係他直接呼籲大陸這些民眾不要逼著我們的藝人來表態這是破壞兩岸關係的可是他也提到喔岸盟用地費、行商及包容去面對處理兩岸關係所以我問一下"},{"start":380.225,"end":391.905,"text":"國安局這邊跟陸委會對於我們的藝人他們做了很多公益嘛像五月天雖然到那邊講那個話可是他們回來你看花蓮的正哉包括一檢高雄這個氣爆的時候他們都捐了非常多的錢"},{"start":394.003,"end":420.906,"text":"對於藝人被爆表態的事情,你們怎麼看?國安局這邊先說明,等下請陸委會說明就藝人遭到施壓的問題,剛剛也跟沈伯陽委員有做一些說明大概中共操作的手法跟施壓的狀況有的是查稅的,有的是要簽認同書的那有的是管制他人員進出演唱會的數量那以這個來施壓那我想對於台灣的藝文工作者,包括演藝人的人來講他就面臨到一個兩難"},{"start":421.647,"end":422.768,"text":"我再問一下請問人在屋簷下對不對要量解跟"},{"start":449.81,"end":450.13,"text":"你怎麼看這個事情?"},{"start":480.052,"end":508.389,"text":"中央電視台是屬於中宣部的下屬單位所以這一次的操作大概就是我覺得是由中共中央由上而下發動那所以其實大家都看出來背後的政治操作很明顯那所以我們要譴責的其實就是對岸的這種政治體制那這也是為什麼兩岸關係到現在還是僵局的狀況雖然對岸說政治制度不同不代表"},{"start":509.689,"end":509.81,"text":"接下來﹖"}]}},{"id":"153286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153286","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331944f07e23753e46b243e47098157e4f6711abfcd1df00fefdf1ef548a9eaff685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:48:01 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12:55:40","影片長度":"00:07:39","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":459,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:55:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:48:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1132,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時48分）謝謝主席，本席請部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，本席就接著剛剛何委員在講的國土計畫法，其實您剛剛的答詢大概也表達出你知道現在整個落差很大。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：甚至我們地方上都覺得國土計畫法的規劃跟實施不要像教改，你知道教改是怎麼樣嗎？理論跟實際的情形沒有契合。本席是新竹縣第一選區選出來的區域立委，我們地方上非常的憂心，第一個就是，我們的這個國土計畫法在劃的時候到底有沒有瞭解實際的情況？千萬不要天龍國思維，不要只坐在冷氣房裡。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們地方反映，特農區的土地應該是良田，但是特農卻沒有水可以灌溉，或已經有蓋建築物的你劃為特農區，接著你劃一個山坡地保育區，但其實那邊全部是平地，你把它列為森林保護區，我們地方上都這種情形，所以你們一定要召開跟地方的，不只是溝通協調，你們要到第一線去瞭解情況。","再來，地方的反映就是我們農地法規已經很嚴格規範了，國土計畫法實施下來只是圖利財團，地方的聲音就是這樣，一直跟我們反映啊！然後第四個，真正想要務農的農民，他的土地不一定被劃為農地，所以地方非常憂心。以上這幾點，我做這樣的反映，我們希望部長能夠積極作為，對於我們地方的這些疑慮，還有這種不符合的，就是你的想法、你的計畫跟現實脫節的，你一定要想辦法改進。"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以回答？"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的時間有限，我看你用書面回答好了，好不好？好。","再來，本席想要請益的就是，新竹沿海很多人養魚嘛，但我們現在新竹沿海變成什麼，你知道嗎？魚的墳場！為什麼變成魚的墳場，部長，你要不要猜看看？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我不是非常瞭解，我是不是可以請漁業署署長來說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，署長有沒有瞭解？應該非常豐沛的魚群，結果全部變魚的墳場，你知道什麼原因嗎？"],["張署長致盛：可能要請委員說明的更清楚是指哪一個部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就我們的漁場啊，應該是漁場的，結果變成魚的墳場，因為我們有太多的魚礁，漁網被魚礁卡住，然後沒有清理，當然本席知道我們漁業署有經費，海保署也有，漁業署的部分，今天農業部在這裡，我要特別講，我們地方漁民的反映就是，都只是清表面的，就是做個意思意思、表面功夫、敷衍，多年下來漁網被魚礁整個困住，結果這些漁網就把魚全部弄死了，所以漁場變魚的墳場，對於這個情況，我要為新竹縣沿海新豐、竹北這裡請命，是不是可以請漁業署來協助？"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個你剛才講的墳場的部分，我現在的瞭解就是說，很多魚礁因為其他這些海洋垃圾，包括漁網這個東西，你如果沒有順利清除的時候，會讓漁業的資源越來越少。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對。"],["陳部長駿季：相對的，漁業署每年都有編一些經費去處理，如果不夠的地方，針對這個部分，我想也請漁業署這邊專案去瞭解，如果經費不夠的地方，我想我們要清除就應該要儘快啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！而且不要每年做一點、做一點，等於沒清。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：而那些魚，你看這麼多年下來，我們豐沛的海洋生態，整個就被我們人為這樣破壞了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。另外一個重點就是，現在新的刺網實名制……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，這個有在實施。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分在做了以後，相對的，如果有實名制的時候，很容易抓到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對。"],["陳部長駿季：所以源頭減少是一件事情，已經存在的，我們會努力去處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。主席，不好意思，最後再30秒。我們也要肯定農業部剛剛修正了農業天然災害救助辦法，因為養蜂的產業，我相信我們的農民都是靠天吃飯，當然不只養蜂產業，但是我今天特別要講的就是蜂蜜、養蜂的蜂農，他們也是因為氣候，該冷的時候不冷，該有雨水的時候沒有雨水，所以他們也很辛苦，我們瞭解到這次好像是一箱補助他們450元，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，過去天然災害沒有這一項，但是這次我們把……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是那是過去的疏失，不是代表沒有就應該。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道，所以我們該改進我們就改進，就是說當蜜蜂沒有蜜源的時候，這其實就是一種間接性的天然災害，所以我們已經納入我們的天然災害救助辦法，今天正在開專案會議，如果專案會議通過的話，我們就會正式公告為受災的一個情況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想請命的是，為我們民眾、蜂農請命的是，你一箱補助450元，這根本還是不到他們成本的三分之一啊！其實他們也是受害者啦！所以這一塊有沒有可能再加強？"],["陳部長駿季：這個費用的部分，其實我們在內部討論有邀請這些蜂農的協會，他們大概對這個一箱的價格是認同的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣子啊！"],["陳部長駿季：因為天然災害救助本身是救助他的成本的20%，不是說他的營業損失。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然、當然、當然。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個價格其實我們有透過這些蜜蜂的相關協會，他們覺得這是合理的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：關於這一塊，我們站在農民……因為之前我在當第8屆立委的時候，像柑橘也是落果嘛！這也是天然災害，這個我們還是要想辦法給農民……因為農民生活真的滿辛苦的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解、我瞭解、我瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這部分如果可以的話，我們多幫農民啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對啦！我們有一個機制，然後相關的這些補助、救助的金額，我們也會先讓蜂農他們那邊產業，特別是協會這邊，他們如果認同，基本上大概比較不會有問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好、OK，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝您。"],["主席：所以我們農業的挑戰很大，誰也沒有想到蜜蜂採不到蜜，因為它沒有辦法開花，所以這個連貫的，樹是可以補助，蜜則沒辦法，所以這個就是要請部長做韌性農業全體的一個調整，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳秀寳委員、陳秀寳、陳秀寳委員。","我們請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員。","我們請林德福委員、林德福、林德福委員。","我們請王美惠委員、王美惠、王美惠委員。","我們請林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員。","我們請羅智強委員、羅智強、羅智強委員。","我們請羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才委員。","我們請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員。","我們請游顥委員、游顥、游顥委員。","我們請李柏毅委員、李柏毅、李柏毅委員。","登記發言的委員除了不在場之外，其餘的都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。我們有林國成委員、劉建國委員、林俊憲委員、陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復的部分請相關單位於1週之內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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是如果專案會議通過的話我們就會公告正式公告為受災的一個情況那本席想請命的就是為我們民眾蜂擁請命就是你一箱450元他們根本還是"},{"start":382.947,"end":386.608,"text":"這個費用的部分其實我們在內部討論其實有邀請的這些蜂農的協會他們大概對這個的一項的這個價格他們覺得是認同的"},{"start":403.478,"end":421.172,"text":"因為天然災害救助本身他是救助他的一個成本的20%不是說他的營業損失當然當然所以這個價格其實我們有透過這些蜜蜂的相關的那個協會他們覺得說這是一個合理的"},{"start":421.852,"end":422.653,"text":"我了解我了解"},{"start":438.148,"end":438.248,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133181fc2874354858bf243e47098157e4f6711abfcd1df00fef7831a244d6e4ae105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:39:39 - 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"end":326.634,"text":"我記得是兩個還一個還兩個而已三個啦三個後來又提了聽說三個啦我的意思是說那全台灣現在目前就只有這兩三個啦其他都還提不出來那你就知道問題似乎不是我們想的那麼簡單他非常的複雜對他有他的複雜度啦他的複雜度所以呢已到今年年底之前"},{"start":327.834,"end":352.161,"text":"可預料的可預期的大概也不會多幾個縣市提出來那整個我是建議第一個我們自己農業部本與農地的管理跟農業的這個產業的一個這個我們自己要提出自己的態度自己的想法自己對於國土計劃法裡面我們應該要怎麼負責任的來提建議這第一個第二個在國土計劃法執行之前"},{"start":353.061,"end":373.805,"text":"因為有可能會演,因為有其他法案的版本要演嘛那起碼在國土計畫法執行之前我們是不是也應該負責任的來做有效的而且是正確的資訊的宣導或者是說明啦因為地方政府雖然有做,但是我坦白講做的2266哩哩啷啷啦"},{"start":376.846,"end":392.919,"text":"而且很多都是形式上的貴罪而已啦很多農民一般農民幾乎都接觸不到聽不到正確的資訊所以網路上我看到好多都是什麼那個仲介不動產公司的經理人啊不斷的告訴農民說啊因為國土計畫法要通過了你未來的農地價值就會崩了所以呢你現在要趕快趁機要來處理要來怎樣怎樣怎樣我覺得這些都是不應該的都是不對的"},{"start":406.509,"end":430.085,"text":"是不是應該要給予正確的一個資訊正確透明的資訊是最重要的而且要用農民聽得懂的話語來告訴他們來跟他們溝通要先溝通啊要溝通清楚啊好不好謝謝委員我想這是農業部的一個責任那過去這個溝通如果說沒有到位其實我們應該要填好我現在就可以跟你講了"},{"start":431.806,"end":431.826,"text":"國土計劃"},{"start":447.094,"end":455.758,"text":"是是而非的這些言論也能夠在第一時間的去消除第一時間要說明清楚要消除是是而非的論點論述第二個我覺得要加強跟地方政府的溝通地方的農業單位的溝通很重要不管是地方政府農業局或者是到基層的農會我都覺得這個都是要雙向的溝通要聽取他們基層第一線上的意見農民的意見到底是什麼"},{"start":474.167,"end":492.193,"text":"我們國家政府權力沒有大到要把他們的綁實實的我們還是要尊重農地所有權人農民他們的聲音我覺得這個政策才能夠務實可行啦國土計劃法也才能夠推得動啦不然的話我是很擔憂的好不好部長以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153284","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331415c600ba57374e0243e47098157e4f6c09f7998a2d5a4c1174afd410f84480c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"12:29:30 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我想"},{"start":408.169,"end":424.007,"text":"第一個部分就是我們的服務的態度我一定會要求我們的農民改善那第二個部分就是有關於這個就是農民的一個反應我們會正視這個問題到底他的問題的癥結點在哪邊那過往是通過小組長我們現在有個0801的服務專線"},{"start":426.73,"end":442.67,"text":"那透過小組長我們的另外一個訊息就是你有關係你就很快你如果沒有關係你就等到一年也等不到但是因為我們農水組在處理的時候我想我們會依據最快的速度我想服務的態度我們一定會改變"},{"start":443.231,"end":467.568,"text":"好,還有一點我也再提醒部長一下因為他們現在常常說現在修根的面積都非常大像110年的時候這亭蓋的面積是20年最多他們說現在我們的農水署都常把這個水都給製造業生產用水反而不注重他們農田灌溉用水我希望這部分部長也多幫我們注意一下這個是絕對是錯誤的我想以農業部來講我們一定會確保我們的農田的"},{"start":471.971,"end":471.991,"text":"委員會議．"},{"start":490.427,"end":501.303,"text":"好希望這部長你還是瞭解一下因為他們都感覺現在都重視這個製造業反而不重視這個農業我覺得我們適度的說明重要農業部一定會堅持我們的原則好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331b0e8ecdb8796752474cb636d3605ada8c09f7998a2d5a4c1ecad090f378ca0a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:27:46 - 12:36:01","影片長度":"00:08:15","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":495,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:36:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:27:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（12時27分）謝謝主席。有請國安局蔡局長、陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：請蔡局長還有梁副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。林委員好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：局長好。副主委好。沈伯洋委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺，在院會被退回一次，在程序委員會也被擋了三次，藍白連討論都不讓我們討論，我不曉得他們在害怕什麼，既然他們不讓我們討論，那本席就藉這個質詢的機會來檢視一下這個法案。我們很清楚知道中國從來沒有放棄武力犯台的野心，所以我們最大的國安威脅當然是中國，我們當然要急切的、好好地來討論探討這部法案。首先我們來看第九條，既然中國對臺灣的威脅那麼的具體，那就要請問局長跟副主委，是否認同立委的身分特殊，除了有機會接觸國家機密，而且有權左右施政方向，他如果非得在任期期間要去中國，那有必要經過內政部會同國安局、法務部、陸委會或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎？另外我再請教一下，就是你們是否認同如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事，又或者是政治性的機關、涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸，我想這個應該要申報接觸時的往來情形跟內容，這兩個問題請先回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場，再請梁副主委來做補充。就我們政府機關來講，就像委員所提出來的，依照兩岸人民關係條例第九條以及國家機密保護法第二十六條，要到對岸去都應該要有一個報備的動作，特別是如直轄市長、涉及到國安機密者或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府科技研究計畫者，要到對岸去還要再經過聯席會議的審查，所以在行政部門確實有這樣的一個機制。對於立法院在討論要不要規範委員到對岸去，我們認為從國安的角度來講，我們很樂見有這樣的討論，假如能夠有相關的一個法制規範或自律機制的話，那我們在過程當中很願意來提供相關的意見，給貴院來做參考。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以局長很明顯是認同立委……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，能夠討論一些國安的防範機制，當然我們都樂觀其成。"],["林委員宜瑾：副主委也是嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：其實從我們陸委會的立場，第九條第四項第一款本來就有包括立法院，但是長久以來，立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例第九條第四項第一款提列需要赴陸審查的人員，所以如果可以把這個定得更明確化的話，我覺得並不是不好。譬如說我們現在在審查的很多縣市長、縣市長下面的局處長，在我們看來，其實局處長這些不太會接觸到國家機密，但是根據現在的規定，他們是要被審查的，反而是我們立法院沒有，所以這個部分，我認為如果要把它明確的寫出來，我覺得是可以走的方向。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK！藍白立委昨天才剛用黑箱濫權的手段通過國會擴權惡法，所以現在權力是集中在立法院喔！那我們無法期待有權者能自制，有鑑於絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化，所以我們一定要有相應的監督機制。就如同剛才兩位所說，都認同立委去中國，特別是有機密的，一定要有一些報備或者是申報的機制。可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面，對於立委到中國一事就足夠規範，這個主張根據的是現行第九條第四項第二款，可是請問上個月底傅崐萁率團赴中又是接受哪一條法律哪一個條文的規範？還想請教的是，針對沈伯洋委員所提的這個國安法案，你們陸委會未來會提出對案嗎？或是針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係，陸委會有什麼實質的監管機制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我必須再說一次，兩岸人民關係條例所說的赴陸審查的部分本來就有包括立法院，只是立法院從未執行，從來不執行！我們也來文給貴院過，但是貴院也沒有回覆，也從來沒有回覆！"],["林委員宜瑾：所以勢必要透過修法的方式？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，如果要把它訂得更清楚，我們是贊同的。我現在補充一下，監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例提報了26人，政務人員有16人，連離退職未滿三年者都有管制，監察院是這樣的。各級地方法院也有，因為法官可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件，只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件，包括書記官、包括下面的人員等等，都要提列，依據的同樣都是兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法，所以中華民國各個機關都有做，除了立法院。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，假設您那麼認同現行法應該可以規範，問題是都沒有在執行，那如果要將法條修得更精確一點，是不是除了沈伯洋委員的提案外，因為我們現在的提案都被擋掉了，如果陸委會有這樣的態度的話，是不是要提出對案？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對於沈伯洋委員提出的法案，我們是樂見往這個方向，目前的態度是這樣。"],["林委員宜瑾：利用最後一點時間再請教兩位，藍白兩黨濫權通過國會的擴權法案，針對我國的國安和臺灣跟中國間的關係，就兩位的專業評估，各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡？請局長先說好了。"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題，因為依照國家機密保護法，行政單位在核密的部分有一個非常明確的規範跟程序，到時候可能會到大院這邊，針對相關報告事項內容的涉密程度來做一些相關的管制或是出席人員的一個規範，這個會是我們後續跟大院進行討論的重點，剛剛也跟馬召委針對這部分有一些相關的對話。"],["林委員宜瑾：副主委要補充嗎？沒有？OK！謝謝！謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請羅智強委員、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、楊瓊瓔委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報；請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供；委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.759093750000002,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.379093750000003,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.927218750000002,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.352218750000002,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.684718750000002,"end":43.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.142218750000005,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.84846875,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.97346875000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.99534375,"end":174.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.99971875,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.12221875,"end":172.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.52721875,"end":172.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.56096875,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.00784375,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.76284375,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.85971875,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.59346875,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.85909375,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.42409375000003,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.77846875,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":194.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.39284375000003,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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我們看來其實局處長這些不太會接觸到"},{"start":223.547,"end":225.008,"text":"藍白立委昨天也才剛通過這個濫權用黑箱濫權的這個手段來通過這個國會擴權二法"},{"start":254.198,"end":272.904,"text":"所以現在權力是集中在立法院我們無法期待這個擁權者能自治所以絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化所以我們一定有相應的監督機制所以就如同您剛所的兩位所說的都認同這個立委"},{"start":273.804,"end":293.245,"text":"去中國特別是有這個機密的這個一定是要有一些報備或者一些申報的機制那可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面對於立委到中國就足夠規範當然這個主張就是根據現行第九條第四項的第二款"},{"start":294.306,"end":321.053,"text":"那可是上個月底傅坤祺率團傅忠那又是接受哪一條法律又是接受哪一個條文的規範那還想請教是說那針對沈博洋委員所提的這個國安法案陸委會未來他會提出你們會提出對岸嗎或者是說針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係陸委會又有什麼實質的監管的機制啊"},{"start":322.692,"end":332.566,"text":"我必須再說一次兩岸人民關係條例所說的附入申報這個附入審查的部分本來就有包括立法院只是立法院從來不執行"},{"start":335.773,"end":361.391,"text":"從來不執行,我們也來文過貴院但是貴院也沒有回覆,也從來沒有回覆所以勢必透過修法的方式對,如果要把它訂得更清楚,我們是贊同的我現在補充一下,監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例他是提報26人,政務人員16人,連離退職未滿3年都有管制"},{"start":363.21,"end":388.332,"text":"檢察院是這樣的各級地方法院也有因為法官他可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件包括書記官包括下面的人員等等都要提列同樣都是根據兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法所以"},{"start":390.103,"end":393.878,"text":"中華民國各個機關都有做除了立法院"},{"start":398.263,"end":421.69,"text":"假設您那麼認同現在的現行法雖然是應該可以可是問題是都沒有在執行那如果要修法的更精確一點除了沈伯陽委員因為我們現在都被擋掉那當然陸委會如果說有這樣的態度的話是不是要提出對岸"},{"start":426.192,"end":444.197,"text":"我們對於沈博洋委員所提出的法案我們是樂見往這個方向目前的態度是這樣好那最後一點時間就是說還是要請教兩位就是說藍白兩黨透過這個濫權的關係透過這個國會的擴權法那針對我國的國安跟台灣跟中國間的關係就兩位的專業評估各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡"},{"start":455.266,"end":455.93,"text":"呃 局長先好了"},{"start":458.217,"end":485.215,"text":"對阿,剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題,也就是說到時候因為我們依照國家機密保護法,行政單位在和密的部分有一個非常明確的規範跟程序,那到時候可能到大院來這邊,那怎麼樣來針對這些相關的報告事項的內容的一個涉密的程度,來做一些相關的一個管制,或是出席人員的一個規範,那這個會是我們後續跟大院來進行討論的重點。"},{"start":488.117,"end":488.297,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153282","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133128816f5dd58d554d243e47098157e4f6c09f7998a2d5a4c199ca43a5534ac6bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:21:34 - 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Tahovecahe委員：部長好，辛苦了！去年5月初我來質詢農委會，為什麼呢？因為當時我們有族人因為使用一些傳統食材被檢舉，並依據食安法被食藥署開罰。其實很為難的地方是，依照國家規定，必須有一個很複雜的調查過程，且動輒百萬的安全性測試費用，這是很辛苦的，我不認為這是個人能做到的，應該由企業、公司或政府來做。當時副主委說，將由場試所主動蒐集資料給食藥署。另外我也提到，希望農委會主動會同原民會，盤整原住民的慣俗植物，即常用的食材原料清單，由你們協調食藥署，並依據這個規定項目由你們檢附資料送審，當時也回應說可以。但去年年底又爆發荖葉事件，因為有人做荖葉香腸，一樣檢舉、開罰。當時我跟陳培瑜委員召開記者會，而記者會的結論是：農業部應主動與原民會盤整原住民常用的傳統慣俗食材，彙整後，由農業部協調衛福部食藥署，儘速納入傳統性食品原料，避免許多人因行政部門作業不及而無辜受罰。我要說的是，這半年的訴求與結論是一模一樣的，我也看到你們在昨天召開了相關會議，農業部提出了137項，原民會提出了14項，客委會目前還沒加進來。但我們也看到目前我們講的這些還沒有納入，最主要的原因是食用紀錄不可考，較少食用、無食用、無法確認有長期且廣泛的……本來就是啊！做這個調查多難？已經食用了幾千年，突然說一定要找到文獻或者做調查？將心比心，部長，你應該也覺得很困難、很為難人，對不對？當然，也很謝謝你們有提及允許到非傳統性食品原料去做九十天的餵食毒性測驗、基因毒性試驗與致畸試驗。我想請問：第一，誰來做？經費哪裡來？請教一下部長。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，農業部當初承諾了委員的提醒，現在我們有一個專案計畫「找回原力」，也就是原住民部落的這些傳統食材。這不是昨天才提給他們的，這是我們早就蒐集的，昨天他們開會，但其實我們很早就提供給食藥署了。基本上從食安角度來說，我們必須尊重食藥署的判斷。現在所面臨的一個困難是，在傳統食材部分，我們爭取如果在國外已經有食用紀錄，我們透過文獻的蒐集是不是可以當作證明之一？如此就不用再重新做了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["陳部長駿季：或者有一些地區，像原民部落，如果我們能夠蒐集這些資料，證明早期的原民耆老就在吃了，這樣是不是也可以放？這些我們會重新整理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：至於剛才委員說不走傳統食材，走非傳統食材的話，那更複雜，還牽涉到毒性測試，就是委員講的毒性測試……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：誰來做？農業部可以幫忙嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：如果我們要做的話，我們會請農藥所來做，因為農藥所本身有能力去做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們就請農藥所來做。至於經費部分，當然就由你們來處理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為這絕對不是受罰的個人可以做的……"],["陳部長駿季：但是不能一百三十幾項全部進去，我們會有優先次序，把優先選擇出來的以經費請農藥所來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還要等多久？"],["陳部長駿季：如果這一百三十幾種的排序出來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為只要有人檢舉，就會一直受罰。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。現在就是優先次序出來以後，我會跟食藥署……所長也在這裡，我們會用經費來支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主席，再一分鐘，我問一個小問題。第二，現在我們原住民最需要的跟農水署、水保署的業務及農糧署的業務相關。我簡單說，首先，水保署或農糧署都針對原住民地區的補助項目增加10%，只要符合的話一律增加10%，因為原鄉的成本很高。我認為很好，可是現在遇到兩個問題，因為農水署剛改制成立，所以好像還沒有這一項。麻煩部長，有關農水署這部分一樣來做，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員稍微說明一下。有關提高補助，以我的概念來說，我一直認為原鄉地區、原民部落對這片土地有守護與貢獻度，也因為貢獻度，我願意把一些原民部落的補助經費做一致性的適當處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。第二個就是距離遠近的問題，我舉個例子，像尖石鄉光是從宇老一直到馬胎，兩地相距54公里，車程兩個多小時。我們有族人提議，因為他們叫不到廠商，也沒有人要來，所以是不是能夠依距離遠近來做一些程度上的差別補助？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒。因為原民部落分散，有的在很深山，所以這部分我們會去研議，不過可能無法用一致性的方式，如用一公里多少來處理。針對可能太遠的部分，我們可能會用專案的方式……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為會一直流標，也沒有人要送貨。"],["陳部長駿季：或者用協助的方式，委請一些我們比較瞭解的廠商協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK。農水路的經費我之前也關心過，聽說明年會增加，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：一年農水路的經費加起來total大概40億，不過全國地區有很多農水路要做，所以我們會依照它的重要性儘量來支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：希望來支持原鄉。謝謝部長，謝謝署長。"],["主席：接下來我們請涂權吉委員。謝謝涂權吉委員在這邊等好久。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長 我們再請部長"},{"start":26.254,"end":31.281,"text":"部長好,辛苦了。去年的5月初我有來質詢農委會"},{"start":33.953,"end":55.968,"text":"那為什麼呢?因為當時我們有族人因為使用一些傳統食材被檢舉因此機具食安法就被食藥署開發那在這個部分其實很為難的地方是如果依照國家的規定它有一個很複雜的調查過程而且動輒百萬的安全性測試費用"},{"start":61.972,"end":76.906,"text":"所以很辛苦的我不認為這個是個人能做到的 這個應該是屬於那些企業、公司或政府來做的那當時呢副主委他是說會由場事所主動收集資料給食藥署"},{"start":79.484,"end":106.158,"text":"另外我也提到說我是希望農委會要主動會同原民會盤整原住民的灌輸植物這些常用的食材原料清單由你們來協調食藥署依據這個規定項目由你們檢附資料送審當時也回應說可以可是後來去年的年底又爆發是老葉"},{"start":107.199,"end":107.439,"text":"農業部應主動與原民會"},{"start":125.161,"end":141.318,"text":"盤整原住民常用的傳統灌輸食材會診後由農業部協調衛福部食藥署競速納入傳統性食品原料避免許多的人因為行政部門作業來不及然後無辜受罰"},{"start":142.119,"end":155.946,"text":"好那我要說的是其實那半年訴求結論是一模一樣的那我是看到說欸你們果然呢是在昨天有召開了這個相關的會議"},{"start":157.546,"end":164.869,"text":"農業部提出了137項人民會提出了14項那客委會這邊是還沒有加進來那這個地方我們也看到說目前好像我們講的這些也還沒有納入那最主要是說它的實用紀錄不可考較少實用、無實用、無法確認長期且廣泛本來就是啊"},{"start":182.958,"end":210.227,"text":"做這個調查多難我就已經使用了幾千年你突然一定要我去找文獻或者做調查您將心比心部長您應該也覺得很困難很為難人對不對所以在這個地方也很謝謝你們有提到說那就讓他允許到非傳統性的食品原料這邊就是去做90天的餵食毒性測驗基因毒性試驗致肌試驗"},{"start":212.688,"end":215.493,"text":"哇 我是想要問說第一個要誰來做啊這個經費哪裡來請教一下部長"},{"start":221.105,"end":249.552,"text":"我想第一個部分就是其實我們農業部當初也承諾了委員的一個提醒我們有一個專案計畫叫做找回原地就是原住民部落的這些傳統食材所以我們也收集了也不是昨天才提出給他們的昨天是他們開會其實我們很早就提供給食藥署了但是基本上從食安的角度我們也必須尊重食藥署的一個判斷那現在一個困難就是傳統食材的部分我們是爭取說"},{"start":250.572,"end":280.572,"text":"對。謝謝。"},{"start":280.792,"end":306.701,"text":"是那個牽涉到毒性測試阿有沒有這邊講的毒性測試那就是說誰來做農業部可以幫忙嗎這個部分齁我們如果要做的時候我們會請我們的農藥所來做因為農藥所本身有這個能力去做這個好那我們就請農藥所來做那經費這個部分當然就由你們來處理嘛對因為這絕對不是受罰的個人可以做的對吧對但是這個齁不能一百三十幾項全部進去啦是我們會有一些優先次序"},{"start":307.321,"end":308.703,"text":"好 那還要等多久?因為有人檢舉就一直受罰對 那"},{"start":319.605,"end":327.472,"text":"我知道 我現在就是說優先制度出來以後我會跟食藥署所長應該也在這裡我們會用經費來支持他做好 那主席我問一個一分鐘小問題那第二個就是很簡單的現在來講就是我們原住民其實最需要的您也知道就是農水署的業務、水保署的業務、農糧署的業務那我簡單說第一個部分"},{"start":345.268,"end":370.026,"text":"就是水保署或農糧署這邊都有針對原住民地區這些補助項目會增加個10%就是符合的話一定增加10%這是基於原鄉的成本很高那這個很好可是現在遇到兩個問題因為農水署剛改制成立啦所以他好像還沒有這一項所以麻煩部長農水署這個部分一樣來做好不好"},{"start":373.369,"end":376.758,"text":"我跟委員早點說明一下齁 這個提高補助其實"},{"start":378.462,"end":407.541,"text":"以我的概念來講因為我一直認為原鄉地區原民部落他對這邊土地的守護的貢獻度因為他的貢獻度我願意把一些原民部落的一些補助經費有一次性的去做一個適當的處理好 謝謝那另外第二個碰到的問題就是說其實距離遠近喔我舉個例子齁像這個堅實箱它光是那個餘老一直到它裡面的這個什麼馬胎齁它相距54公里欸"},{"start":408.382,"end":423.825,"text":"那個兩個多小時的車程所以我們是有族人提議說因為他們會叫不到廠商沒有人要來所以是不是這個部分也能夠依據他的距離遠近還是做一些程度的差別補助"},{"start":425.191,"end":454.187,"text":"我想謝謝委員這樣的一個提醒就是說因為原民部落很分散有的是很深山所以這個部分可能我們會去研議但是可能沒有辦法用一致性的用一公里多好可能太遠的部分我們可能會用專案的方式或者是用協助的方式去委請一些我們比較了解的廠商去來協助那那個農水路的經費我也之前關心過聽說明年會增加對吧"},{"start":455.708,"end":456.229,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝各位署長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13312765b382e100205e243e47098157e4f6c09f7998a2d5a4c10a64debb1b02432b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:11:47 - 12:21:31","影片長度":"00:09:44","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":584,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:21:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:11:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":970,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時12分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們現在針對了碳匯，自然碳匯方法學的一個審核，我們大概目前有6個方式，包括森林、竹林、改進農業土地管理或者生物炭在土壤的應用，紅樹林的植林跟海草的復育。這6個減量的方法，我想請教農業部，要把它落實在我們的農業中，你們有怎樣具體的方式嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，我們的方法學，大概經過我們內部很多的努力，現在已經提到環境部去了，環境部公告以後，就可以當作一個正式的資源減量的方法。但是在執行面來講，這是一個非常重要的關鍵，因為臺灣都是個體戶小農為主，小農要去處理相關減碳的作為，幾乎不可能啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["陳部長駿季：因為它後面的一些成本會比較高一點，所以我們現在就是用集團栽培的方式，我會配套我們很多產業的調整，用集團栽培、用契作栽培，讓它變成一個規模比較大的方式。規模比較大的時候，在處理所有作為的時候可以有一致性，一致性過程裡面有兩個後面的策略，第一個，我們可以由農業部做協助，但是碳權歸農業部，然後農業部再進到交易平臺去處理，處理完的這些金額再回饋給農民。另外一個方式，就是由這些大的集團產區的經營主，他直接把相關的這些碳權，直接進到交易所去賣，或是跟企業結合，所以後面的方式，其實很重要的關鍵就是把個體戶變成集團栽培，那才有可能落實。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是集團栽培的話，可以想像啦，會不會變成後來是要導入企業？為了企業的本身的ESG……"],["陳部長駿季：企業應該是一個經營主體啦……"],["蔡委員易餘：以它為主體，去跟農民變成一個契約關係，然後讓農民來做實作者……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：企業去取得了這樣一個碳匯的價值。"],["陳部長駿季：但是有一個很重要的，就是當我導入企業的時候，我不希望它是一個對價關係，我希望它是一個分潤的關係，因為它是一個經營主體，不能用純粹這種契作對價的關係去處理，這樣的話，會把我們的碳權變成被企業拿走了，農民沒有什麼受益。所以我們未來在跟企業合作……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然最後一定是要給農民受益嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，回饋，分潤的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，分潤嘛！但是企業之所以會想要投入，也一定是除了對它的企業形象之外，可能它取得了碳權，對它的外銷也有利嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以一定是這樣的加乘方式，你才有可能導入比較大規模這樣一個減碳的區域啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以在方法學還沒有完成以前，其實農業部最近一直在跟很多企業談合作，用ESG的觀念，讓它在企業的永續報告裡面可以呈現，讓更多企業瞭解了以後，他們的加入會更積極、更踴躍。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，以後由誰來負責盤整土地？"],["陳部長駿季：現在目前整個的執行面，農地的部分，大概是由農糧署，然後林業部分是林業署，但是整體的、整個的一個大對談平臺是在我們的永續司。"],["蔡委員易餘：永續司？他們來做土地的一個平臺？"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後後續再對接到不同的產業面。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，現在聯合國清潔發展機制（CDM），他們目前承認的碳匯，他們認為可以產生碳匯的部分，只承認是在新栽植的林地……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但目前臺灣很多是既有的啊，既有的要怎麼把它轉成未來是有碳匯價值的一個林地呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個分為兩個部分，針對現在CDM，它真的是只承認新植林的部分，但是後續的這些方法學出來了以後，我們會經過相關跟國際規範做一個有效的接軌，因為有些國家不一定是在處理這個區塊的，他們還是以新植林為主。但是相對的，林業部分的撫育，其實它也是一個非常重要的碳，還有森林的經營，另外一個更重要就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我舉一個比較極端的例子啦，因為我們現在有很多平地造林，會不會有人為了要有碳匯，然後他就把平地造林的都先砍光，先砍光然後過兩年後再重新來造竹林。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們的碳匯要看那個基線啦，現在有的都不算了，平地造林本身新植的平地造林沒問題……"],["蔡委員易餘：那我改啊！如果我改呢？我本來造植的林……"],["陳部長駿季：他可以做撫育。"],["蔡委員易餘：可能本來二氧化碳固碳的效果比較差，我把它改成竹林，竹林的固碳效果好啊！"],["陳部長駿季：這樣會重新計算它的一個碳匯的數量。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以就有可能會發生……"],["陳部長駿季：對，原來的樹木……"],["蔡委員易餘：原來的樹種被砍掉，然後把它換成新的樹種嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：等於說重新另外一個cycle，重新計算啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對，就另外計算嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我再請教一下，比方說我們嘉義鹽田地最多了，我們那邊都海口，都鹽田地，如果有這麼多的鹽田地，未來有沒有可能變成一個海藻或者是紅樹林復育的一個基地？"],["陳部長駿季：紅樹林是可以去處理一些生態棲地的部分，海草床的部分可能要看區位，因為海草床不是在海邊種海草就結束了，要讓它能夠很快速的生長。我們現在是以澎湖地區為主，很多廢棄的漁港，我們可以在那邊處理，海草床每一公頃的固碳量可以有12到14噸，它不亞於一棵樹喔，一棵樹可能是8到10而已。所以這個部分，我想我們會積極的，然後也會去評估這個地區有沒有適合去做藍碳的部分，如果說找到適當的地方……"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上海藻是一個很好的一個固碳的機制，而且我們有這麼多鹽田地，事實上臺灣的鹽田地有一個比較麻煩，就是在裡面既生的海藻、既有的海藻幾乎都是不利於其他海藻生長。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：它的名字叫做貝克氏鹽草，有這樣的一個物種存在，所以我們要去做可以固碳的海藻床難度就是很高。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們有可能在技術上去做排除，然後把它轉換成可以固碳的海藻嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分我會請我們的水試所這邊更積極的去處理，如果說有一個素地那相對單純，但如果原來有一些相關的這些海草的時候，它的競合作用怎麼樣去移除，可能有一些技術上的一個問題要克服。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得臺灣你要找素地都很難啦，因為它都有既有的生態啊！所以你在已經有既有生態的地方，要找到大片又符合的，一定會需要排除掉一些其他因素的存在，你看我現在列舉的，從嘉義甚至到了臺南，就是東石、布袋、鹽水、將軍那邊都是鹽田地，這些鹽田地都是早期我們的祖先在這裡曬鹽的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果我們可以用海藻的復育創造價值，然後又可以讓過去的鹽工，現在有能去做固碳的，他們可以跟剛剛媒合的企業來做這一塊，讓他們又有一個工作，我覺得這個是可以讓整個鹽田地的價值提升起來。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我會開一個專案計畫，就是由水試所跟相關的這些學界共同去評估一下，有沒有辦法把這些鹽草……"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道這可能有難度啦，因為我之前跟人研究過，我們這裡已經有一些不利於海藻生長的因素存在……"],["陳部長駿季：對，怎麼樣去改善它的環境。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，有沒有辦法改善嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：這個要去做一個專案的評估來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好啊，我相信以現在的科學技術一定是有辦法突破，可是它也許要花一些預算……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們導入企業促成這一件事情，讓這一些荒廢已久的鹽田地可以發揮它的價值，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我們會努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請伍麗華委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：我們看111年原住民就業者參加勞保的情形，原住民無勞保之勞工，就是勞工但沒有勞保，有4萬553人；112年又增加到5萬2,002人，一直增加。沒有勞保的話，就沒有辦法給予很多相關的各方面協助，事實上，我在106年就已經質詢過，勞動部當時的司長，就是勞保局局長，他已經退休了，當時的司長也開過三次會議，最後一次在106年7月10日，要編列預算，但是沒有錢，一直到現在都沒有解決。事實上，原住民族基本法第二十六條第二項規定，政府對原住民參加社會保險無力負擔者，得予補助，這個非常非常的重要，這個部分請勞動部跟主計總處能夠互相協調，給予最大的支持，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：據同仁所提供的資料，勞工職業災害保險法裡面已經有提供原民勞工職災給付的保障，所以他本身如果有這些的保障，就能解決沒有參加勞保的問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那個部分我來說明，那個只是其中之一，有勞保跟沒有勞保差很多，平常生病及平常對於這些相關勞保的協助都有。再講到職災，職災的時候如果他有勞保，我們就講今年0403地震，有一個開大貨車的被石頭壓到過世了，職災只能用最基本工資，最低的那個勞保啊，如果他有勞保的話，那個差距就很大，所以這個部分還是有差別，好不好？我希望能夠讓主計長瞭解，還有主計總處同仁也瞭解，原漢的平均餘命落差很大，所以我們常常會有訴求，像國民年金法就是原住民是55歲；公教人員退休，原住民是55歲，還有很多還沒有完成的，比如勞工還有其他的，都是需要降低年齡。","再來看原漢平均收入差距也是很大，所得就有影響。再者，包括失業率、粗在學率，教育是向上提升最重要的，這些為什麼要跟主計總處講呢？你看107學年度粗在學率原漢的落差，全國是85.8，原住民53.9，差距是31.9。但是到了111學年度，全國88.9，原住民56.5，雖然我們也上升了，但是差距加大為32.4，有很大的原因是什麼呢？因為我們原住民的升學保障，原住民族教育法有升學保障，那是外加2%，外加不影響一般學生的升學，我們是外加2%，以前沒有，以前不是外加，只要加分就可以考上，現在是外加2%。外加2%的結果是怎麼樣呢？就跑到私立大學了，就繳不起那些學費。所以這次選舉前私立大學增加了很多的補助，對不對？但是對原住民毫無幫助，因為原住民不會在那邊，所以這個部分變成是要根據原住民族教育法，怎麼樣讓我們的孩子能夠考上、就學，並且怎麼樣給予協助，就是變成主計總處要支持教育部，增加相關的就學補助，可以嗎？好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：盡力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請主計長多多幫忙。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","繼續請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","今日登記發言的委員已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員質詢及委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請行政院主計總處於一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在委員補提書面資料，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。散會。","散會（12時20分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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12:02:23","影片長度":"00:10:18","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":618,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:02:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:52:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時51分）主席，請主計長。"],["主席：有請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長好。我看我們主計總處，如剛剛伍委員所說在做一些國民所得統計、家庭收支統計，我們昨天看到民進黨政策會執行長王義川說他們在監控人民的一些行蹤、有沒有參加什麼活動，然後他得到相關的資訊。請問主計總處如果得到這些國民所得的相關資訊、個人的相關資訊、家庭收支，你們這個個資是不是會直送一份副本給民進黨中央？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有啊，因為我們相關的資料，調查之後，我們會公布在我們的網站，讓大家自行……"],["陳委員玉珍：我是說但是因為你們有的還要入戶嘛，我知道主計總處還要入戶去統計，或者說你家有多少收入、有多少錢，這一份副本、詳細的東西就送到民進黨中央去，說不定改天我在電視上看到王義川說：哇，這個家裡誰很有錢啊，這個又行動監控，去了哪裡、哪裡啊。你們會送一份給民進黨中央嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們這是總體數據的展現，不會有個人的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道總體，我說個體啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們會做家戶調查嘛，對不對？抽樣的，我知道。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，但是家戶調查不會有個人的數據出現，都是整體數據的展現。"],["陳委員玉珍：不會喔？你們做家戶調查沒有，我是說數據公開的不會有，私下會不會送一份過去？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，這個沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：不會喔，確定喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，確定。"],["陳委員玉珍：不要改天讓我聽到說民進黨某個黨中央的政策會執行長又說誰家裡有多少錢我們都知道，這實在是太恐怖了。","我今天想跟您討論一下我們金門縣的財力分級問題，各直轄市及縣市政府財力級次表，在您前一位我就討論過了，是依據中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法的第八條規定，也就是中央對直轄市及縣市政府之計畫型補助款，應依財力級次給予不同補助比率，在這個財力分級制度下，您知道金門被歸為第幾級嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第三級。"],["陳委員玉珍：第三級。離島有幾個縣市？哪幾個？主計長，離島有幾個縣市？哪幾個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：三個。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪三個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：馬祖、澎湖、金門。"],["陳委員玉珍：他們是第幾級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他們是第五級。"],["陳委員玉珍：他們是第五級，我們是第三級。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪些城市是第三級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第三級的部分就是有……臺南市也是第三級。"],["陳委員玉珍：您來的臺南嘛！臺南、高雄、新竹、嘉義，新竹縣市。你看喔，唉唷，你們的直轄市臺南市是多麼受到眷顧的地方啊，你們劃第三級，我們金門跟你們一樣劃第三級，你們的財政規模你知道吧，臺南市的財政規模1年是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：1,000億左右。"],["陳委員玉珍：1,000億喔，我們才100億，然後我們的財力分級跟你們這種1,000億的，我們才100億，然後跟你們放在同一個級距裡頭，合適嗎？金門跟臺南一樣進步嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，臺南市的歲入歲出都有差短，它必須要去舉債。"],["陳委員玉珍：你看一下我們金門財力分級的問題，民國108年到112年，我們金門縣資本門的預算，中央只有補助我們36.51%到55%，也就是百分之三十幾到百分之五十幾，我們財政已經有很沉重的負擔，近3年來我們歲入歲出決算審定的還短絀高達新臺幣59.29億，我們已經產生了鉅額的短差。所以在這個情況下，我們的金西醫療中心，還有我們的伯玉路也就是主要幹道的優化工程，以及我們金城國中的停車場、中正國小的停車場，我們有二十幾項的重大計畫，總計畫的經費是102億，中央只補助我們15億，我們縣政府要自己配合87億，你們中央才補助我們15.19%，造成我們縣庫很沉重的負擔。所以我剛剛跟你說的這些事情全部都沒有辦法做，醫療也沒有辦法做，主要道路也沒辦法做，停車場也沒有辦法做，二十幾項重大計畫，你們只給我們15%的補助，我們都沒有辦法做。我們的自有財政、自有財源的規模在全國各縣市是倒數第三名，除了澎湖跟連江外，其他縣市的自有財源、歲入歲出的規模都比我們多，我們整個財源就只有超過澎湖跟連江；其中有9個縣市的自有財源超過100億，你們的自有財源就超過我們整個縣的預算，彰化、屏東還有200億。","所以中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法第八條相關規定，你們是用自有財源的比率認定為是縣市政府財力級次的標準，這個沒有辦法真正合理展現縣市的財政能力，這個標準就變成是你們在定，而不是我們真實的能力，對不對？如果我們可以跟其他縣市有同樣的補助金額，那我們的自有財源比率就會降低，所以你把我們列為第三級很不合理，主計長，你有關心到嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，因為有時候財政規模也看人口、也看面積。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，好，我來跟你看人口跟面積，等一下我跟你講人口跟面積。我們的財政規模很小，金門縣是小縣嘛，我們基礎建設很落後啊，我們縣政府大樓是57年蓋的，衛生局是59年蓋的，稅務局是66年，這些都已經被評為危樓了，可是我們沒有錢可以改建，主計長，你知道自來水應該是誰負擔嗎？按照法律規定，應該誰負擔？中央還是地方？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方也要負擔一部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道自來水我們是自己負擔嗎？全省的自來水，臺灣包括澎湖、包括馬祖，是中央在負擔，我們是自己有自來水廠，我們自己負擔，我們的農林漁牧試驗所全部……本來這都是中央的，我們自己有農試所、林務所、畜試所、水試所，以前還是省的時候，這些全部是由省負擔，後來收到中央就都由中央負擔，但這些全部都是我們金門縣自己負擔，我們那個水試所也是危樓，我們很多公務員辦公的地方都是危樓。上次金門縣，之前中央的前政務委員張景森有去開會，我們的副主計長也有過去，他說這個是很不合理的，所以他要協調主計總處針對這個補助辦法要重新計算財政級距劃分，研議將金門的財政級距直接劃為第五級，你知道嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我是知道啦，但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道，好，進行得怎麼樣呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般我們原則上是3年會再做一次討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：3年喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，會研究一次，甚至要做修正。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門已經不只3年沒檢討了吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以今年可以檢討了吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們還是會針對整個自有財源的情況再去做……"],["陳委員玉珍：自有財源是來自你給我們多少錢，這個相對比率就改變了嘛，你有沒有考慮過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，第一個就是補助是另外歸補助，再看本身縣市自有產生的財源部分的比率到底是多少，然後……"],["陳委員玉珍：你看看自有財源的這個表，金門、澎湖跟連江這三個，我們用離島跟離島比是比較準，跟本島當然是沒有辦法比，我們是14萬人，澎湖10萬人，連江1萬人，我們面積是最大，人口也是最多，但我們收到的分配款是最少的，我們自有財源自己籌了，因為我們努力賺錢，所以你們給我們比較少錢，我們收到19億，澎湖的統籌分配款是拿到24億，我們跟澎湖比較接近，你看規模啦，一般性補助款我們收到14.5億，澎湖拿到47億，這樣是不是很不成比例啊？我們14萬人口比人家多，面積比人家大，我們的統籌分配款跟一般性補助款差人家這麼多。另外在計畫型補助裡頭也是，因為第三級、第五級也影響很大嘛，是不是？因為這個計畫型補助款除了財力分級，你們各縣市的計畫也按照你們的財力分級來做補助的標準啊！我現在告訴你，我們很多事情都做不了，縣政府的危樓沒有辦法改建，主要的幹道沒有辦法做，醫療中心也沒有辦法蓋，主計長，是不是替我們考慮一下？我們也不要求跟臺灣一樣，我們跟離島一樣就好，我們跟澎湖一樣就好，我們只要求跟我們的離島比，我們只要跟澎湖、只要跟馬祖就是連江一樣就可以了，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為財力分級主要是要看財源啦……"],["陳委員玉珍：你一直說因為我們很努力的賺錢，所以你是懲罰好學生嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是懲罰，但是你如果表現得好，這個都有獎勵，像如果優秀的話，最高獎勵是……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，你看剛剛那個表格，全部獎勵以後，我們的補助款得到14.5億，澎湖得到47億，統籌分配款我們得到19億，澎湖得到24億，這就是獎勵後的結果嗎？就是你這個制度沒有鼓勵一個很認真在自有財源努力上的縣市嘛，我剛才說100多億的預算，你們只給我們15億，那些重大建設，我們要自籌80幾億，我們沒有辦法。中央一直說金門有錢，金門有錢是因為我們也節衣縮食，我們也很省著用，我們也很努力在賺，對不對？我們也很努力在賺，但是你們不能這樣子懲罰我們，不然我們很多重大建設真的做不下去，連大橋都要我們自己花一半的錢，我們有時候覺得儘量都用在地方，我們儘量就自己也多花一點，但是你至少讓我們跟澎湖、連江一樣，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們儘量來討論、研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼時候會幫我們討論出來？多久時間？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概應該……"],["許處長永議：針對特殊項目是3個月。"],["陳主計長淑姿：3個月。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，3個月，儘快給我報告，儘快來找我討論，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","接著我們請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.30096875,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.822218750000005,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.040968750000005,"end":45.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.02784375,"end":47.939093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.98971875,"end":52.664093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.12846875,"end":56.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.46534375,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.33409375,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.063468750000006,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.83221875000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.36534375000001,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.07409375,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.13721875,"end":105.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.68534375,"end":106.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.84971875000001,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.45721875000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.11534375000001,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.41034375000001,"end":112.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.20346875000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.75596875000001,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.11034375000001,"end":113.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.12284375,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.85659375,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.97034375000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.13034375000001,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.45096875,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.59409375000001,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.56784375,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.48721875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.76971875,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.04346875000002,"end":140.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.83596875,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.99596875,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.67846875,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":151.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.12534375,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":159.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.97221875,"end":165.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.95846875,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.00909375,"end":167.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.90346875,"end":168.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.05096875,"end":174.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.25346875000002,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.31596875000002,"end":185.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.24784375000002,"end":178.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.79096875000002,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.35596875000002,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.74409375000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.97159375,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.47221875000002,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.26034375,"end":234.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.18409375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.07721875000001,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.68034375000002,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.19471875000002,"end":251.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.99159375000002,"end":253.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.62846875000002,"end":261.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.44159375000004,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.14596875,"end":266.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.06096875000003,"end":268.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.76534375,"end":274.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.05971875,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.79784375,"end":282.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.60284375000003,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.47096875,"end":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這個有行動監控去了哪裡去哪裡啊"},{"start":39.87,"end":40.31,"text":"陳玉珍陳玉珍陳玉珍"},{"start":58.522,"end":60.022,"text":"金門縣財力分級問題各職轄縣縣市政府財力級次表"},{"start":84.168,"end":104.395,"text":"您前一位我就討論過了是依據中央對直轄級縣市政府補助辦法的第8條規定也就是中央對直轄級縣市政府支企劃型補助款要按照財力級式給不同的補助比例在這個財力分級制度下您知道金門被歸為第幾級了第三級李導有幾個縣市哪幾個李導有幾個縣市哪幾個"},{"start":110.526,"end":121.736,"text":"三個阿哪三個阿祖還有呢他們第幾集他們是第五集他們是第五集阿我們第三集是阿哪些城市第三集"},{"start":129.44,"end":148.849,"text":"台南高雄新竹嘉義新竹縣市你看喔你們的台南是多麼直轄市是多麼受到眷顧的地方啊你們劃第三期我們金門跟你們一樣劃第三期你們的財政規模你知道吧台南市的財政規模一年多少啊"},{"start":150.936,"end":163.204,"text":"一千億我們才一百億然後我們的我們的財力分局跟你們放在同一個這個跟你們這種一千億我們才一百億然後跟你們放在同一個級距裡頭合適嗎"},{"start":167.045,"end":170.787,"text":"民國108年到112年金門縣資本門預算中央只有補助36.51到55"},{"start":189.255,"end":216.232,"text":"三十幾趴到五十幾趴我們財政已經有很沉重的負擔近三年來我們稅率稅數決算的這個還審定的還短處高達新台幣59.29億我們已經產生了巨額的短差所以在這個情況下我們那個醫療中心京西醫療中心我們的博裕我們主要的這個幹道的優化工程我們進任國中的停車場我們中正國小的停車場我們有二十幾項的重大計劃總計劃的經費是一百零二億"},{"start":218.613,"end":242.993,"text":"中央只要補助我們15億我們縣政府要自己配合87億中央才要補助我們15.19%造成我們縣庫很沉重負擔所以我剛跟你說的這些事情全部都沒有辦法做醫療也沒有辦法做道路 主要道路也沒辦法做停車場也沒有辦法做20幾項重大計畫你們只給我們15%的補助我們都沒有辦法做"},{"start":244.124,"end":265.478,"text":"我們的自由財政自由財源的規模規模在全國各縣市是倒數第三名除了澎湖跟連江外其他縣市的自由財源稅率最初的規模都比我們多我們整個財源就只有超過澎湖跟連江那其中你們這些縣市有9個縣市自由財源超過100億"},{"start":268.8,"end":268.92,"text":"委員長陳玉珍"},{"start":292.807,"end":293.087,"text":"主計長你有關心到嗎?"},{"start":309.512,"end":334.282,"text":"這個部分呢 因為有時候財政規模也看人口也看面積啦對 好 我來跟妳看人口跟面積齁等一下我跟妳講人口跟面積我們的財政規模很小嘛基本線嘛 小線嘛那我們基礎建設很落後啊我們縣政府大樓是57年蓋的衛生局是59年蓋 收入局是66年這些都已經被評為微樓了喔可是我們沒有錢可以改建啊主計長你知道我們要自己負 你知道這個自來水應該是誰負擔嗎按照法律規定應該誰負擔嗎"},{"start":339.107,"end":361.694,"text":"中央也有地方自來水地方也要負擔一部分你知道自來水我們是自己負擔嗎自來水全省的這個臺灣啊包括澎湖啊包括馬祖中央在負擔我們是自己有自來水廠我們自己負擔我們的農林漁牧實驗所全部本來這都中央我們自己有農事所、林務所、敘事所"},{"start":363.021,"end":373.949,"text":"水事所全部這些以前你們省的時候這個省負擔嘛後來收到中央都中央負擔我們這些全部都我們金門縣自己負擔我們那個水事所也是圍樓啊我們很多公務員辦公廳都是圍樓啊"},{"start":377.216,"end":399.491,"text":"我們上次這個新門縣這個之前我們這個中央這個政務委員前政務委員張景生有去開會我們的副主計長也有過去他說這個是很不合理的所以他協調主計總處針對這個補助辦法要重新計算財政級距劃分研議把金門的財政級距直接劃為第5級你知道嗎"},{"start":403.814,"end":403.874,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":428.163,"end":455.022,"text":"不是 因為第一個就是說那個是另外補助是另外歸補助然後本身縣市自有產生的一個財源的這個部分的比率它到底是多少然後你看看自由財源你看這個表金門澎湖跟連江我們人是三個我們用離島跟離島比是比較準的跟本島是當然沒有辦法比因為我們14萬澎湖10萬連江1萬我們面積也是最大人口也是最多我們收到的"},{"start":455.862,"end":483.392,"text":"分配款是最少的我們只有才能自己籌了因為我們努力的賺錢所以你們給我們比較少錢我們收到19億澎湖統籌拿到24億我們跟澎湖比較接近你看喔規模啦齁一般性補助款我們收到14.5億澎湖拿到47億這樣是不是很不成比例啊我們14萬人口比人家多面積比人家大我們的統籌分配款得到比人家還有一般性補助款差這麼多"},{"start":485.185,"end":504.825,"text":"那在計劃型補助裡頭也是啊因為第3級第5級也影響很大嘛是不是因為這個計劃型補助除了財力分級你們的各縣市的計劃也按照這個你們的財力分級來做補助的標準啊我現在告訴你我們很多事情都做不了先政府的圍樓沒有辦法改建主要的幹道沒有辦法做醫療中心也沒有辦法蓋"},{"start":508.051,"end":521.019,"text":"是替我們考慮一下我們也不要求跟台灣一樣我們跟離島一樣就好我們跟澎湖一樣就好我們只要求我們離島只要跟離島比我們只要跟澎湖只要跟馬祖就是連江一樣就可以了"},{"start":521.755,"end":544.373,"text":"因為才藝分級主要是要看你的裁員那你一直在說你一直在說因為我們很會就是說因為我們很努力的賺錢所以你是懲罰好學生嘛不是懲罰但是你如果表現的好這個都有獎勵像如果優秀是你看看那個表格全部獎勵了以後你看看那個表格全部獎勵以後我們的補助款得到14.5億澎湖得到47億統籌分配款我們得到19億澎湖得到24億這是獎勵後的結果嗎"},{"start":551.698,"end":579.993,"text":"就是你這個制度沒有鼓勵一個很認真在自由財運努力上的這個縣市嘛我剛才說100多億的預算你們只給我們15億那些重大建設我們要自籌80幾億我們沒有辦法中央一直說金門有錢那金門有錢是因為我們也節育縮食我們也很省著用啊我們也很努力在賺對不對我們也很努力在賺但是你們不能這樣子懲罰我們啊不然我們很多重大建設真的做不下去連大橋都要我們自己花一半的錢"},{"start":581.226,"end":581.726,"text":"謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢 接著我們請羅銘才委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153277","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13313e58759d2933d9ef5c2a8e696f21355cc09f7998a2d5a4c11b55de518f4f2cb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:40:37 - 11:51:46","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":669,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:51:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:40:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時40分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：有請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長，您好。記得這個會期主計總處在3月7號有開過一個記者會，當時宣布2月物價指數年增率是3.08%，預估可能全年要修正從1.64%上調到1.85%；後來說台電會調漲電價，所以你們是預計可能全年會影響到0.09%，通膨可能會站上1.94%，逼近2%的警戒線。當時我問需不需要建議央行升息對抗通膨，後來我們就看到在3月21號的時候，央行升息了半碼，那麼4月份的時候，果然CPI是到了1.95%，我是覺得還蠻準確的啦！","現在就是看到主計總處在前幾天有一則新聞，提到可能會上修今年的經濟成長率，不過物價上漲的壓力仍在，在這裡我們也看到央行說不排除再升息，現在想要請教一下主計長，因為這個很兩難嘛！我們也看到在會議當中，大家的意見也是兩派，如果不升息的話，難以壓制物價；可是如果升息的話，好像對像經濟部、廠商這些，又會有一些些意見。在這邊因為主計長您是新上任的，所以我特別想要瞭解一下你的想法，現在大家都會去討論臺灣好像經濟是一個人的武林，這些ICT產業、台積電大家一枝獨秀帶領我們的經濟成長，但是好像無法讓全民共享，所以有時候這個幸福感也不見得會正確啦！那這是一個政治的藝術，所以想要請教主計長，您權衡消費者物價跟企業經營的成本，然後考量我國的這種產業結構，您認為CPI年增率應該控制在什麼數字，您覺得比較合理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上，因為其實我們是辦理調查，然後相關的數據提供給各單位參考，所以等於我們會認為年增率如果能夠控制在2%以下當然是最好，但是問題有時候就是有一些其他的因素，譬如說地緣政治，或者是一些戰爭因素等等。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當然我們都知道2%是一個標準，不過我這樣聽起來，主計長您個人的一個價值，您是希望控制在2%以下，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這個部分就是想要繼續請教你，因為主計總處也有提到景氣有慢慢變好，我們的第一季1到4月你們也提到經濟成長率是6.51%，是11季以來最佳表現，3年來的最高，在這裡你應該也很清楚是什麼帶動啦！可是看勞動部做的2023年社會新鮮人的薪資比較，全體平均是3萬5,000元，可是細看的時候很明顯的，這些資訊通訊科技、ICT產業是一枝獨秀，明顯高於其他的產業，那這些傳統產業、內需產業及其他領域，其實有很多的人是在這個領域工作。","又例如你們月報有提到辦理的物價統計，113年第一季比去年同期漲了2.24%，細看的時候，像食物類是3.51%，服務類上漲2.61%，經常性購買項目比去年同期漲了3.23%。所以你們也做了一個統計，薪資最低20%的家庭與薪資最高20%的家庭他們的所得跟消費支出的占比差異，很明顯我們可以看得出來，這些低薪資的家庭他的選擇大概就是先管住、再管吃、再管病，那其他消費性的、休閒性的是他們最後的選擇，這個跟高收入家庭是不太一樣的，占比的重要性也是不太一樣的。","所以在這邊只是想要瞭解一下，主計長，因為我們其實推出很多的政策，我們講經濟成長率為什麼人民會無感？我們要去看他會痛苦在什麼地方，如果是痛苦在他最基本的、每天要面對的、必須基本解決的，政府做出多好的政策，他都不會覺得好。所以我在這裡希望主計長您幫忙做一個功課，因為像你們這邊我看到主計總處家庭可支配所得變動趨勢在2021年的一個分析，我們可以很清楚地看到，低所得家庭的收入在這幾十年是緩慢的、是停滯的，可是高所得家庭的收入在這幾十年其實是越來越高的，所以我們雖然經濟成長率看起來是好的、GDP是好的，可是可能有很多的地方他是感受不到的，所以這個是一個……主計總處其實你們都在做一些很好的分析，有很多好的工具，這些你們會不會提供像稅制、社會救助、勞工薪資、產業結構、投資市場，就是提供這些部會讓他們去做一個調整的依據，想要聽一下主計長你們會怎麼做。"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們相關的數據都有公開在我們的網站。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：只是公開喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為各部會有各部會的會計，我們也會提供給他們和統計人員來做參考。再來就是整個……其實我們本身在社會保障支出方面，因為如果家庭收支所得的最低和最高都維持在6.05倍到6.15倍；個人所得部分其實是維持到3.93左右，這一個部分我們會透過一些，譬如說租金的補貼，因為他住的會有影響，所以透過一些政策來改善這當中的差距，或者是我們會有一些老人交通的補助，這也會改善這當中的差距，所以整個這個部分我們是希望能夠提供給各部會參考，然後作為他改善整個措施的依據。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長，我的意思就是這樣，因為你看一下我們剛才那個圖嘛！你看最後你們是做到2021年嘛！我要講的是說，對！你剛剛講的什麼租金補貼都對，這個就是我們講的，我們政策做很多，但是人民之所以無感是那些低所得的人，你看一下它的成長幅度，有時候我們這些年越做越多，可是它的差距是越來越大，不患寡而患不均，有時候那個感受是相對的感受，所以我才會說我們做很多政策是對的，但是為什麼那個差距彌補不起來，就是希望說我們主計總處，有關你們所做的這些國民所得統計、物價統計、社會保障支出、人力供需抽樣調查、基本國勢調查、家庭收支統計，我是希望能夠更積極主動地去銜接各部會的權責；而且我是希望主計總處要作為一個國家警報臺，你們要示警，因為你們掌握這些分析統計資料。因為我們看到你們真的做很多，但是現狀、實際你們做出來的分析統計就是沒有嘛，所以我希望再更積極一點，做示警的角色，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後一個小小的問題，因為我們經常在處理睦鄰工作要點等等之類的，但是每一次他們都會說我們還要跟主計總處討論。好，我舉個簡單的例子，假設像睦鄰經費，因為是噪音，所以他只補助他們去做那些隔音的設備，他說我總不能天天買冷氣、天天做窗戶吧！有噪音的時候，你應該允許我，那個禮拜我們可以出去旅遊啊，他們就會說那個主計總處不會答應啦，有些科目不能支。我想請教一下主計長，真的是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，這個部分我也跟同仁討論過了，針對這個部分，我們尊重……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們要便民嘛、要尊重嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們尊重國防部的意見。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我就說主計總處會尊重國防部。好，謝謝主計長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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那我們也會提供因為我們各部會有各部會的一個會計我們也會提供給他們和統計人員來做參考"},{"start":474.234,"end":482.837,"text":"社會保障支出方面家庭收支所得的最低和最高維持在6.05倍到6.15個人所得部分維持到3.93左右"},{"start":490.299,"end":518.499,"text":"那這個部分呢我們會透過一些譬如說租金的補貼因為他住的會有影響所以透過一些政策的一個改善來改善這當中的一個差距或者是說我們會有一些老人交通的一個補助那這也會改善這當中的一個差距這差距那所以呢整個部分這個部分我們就是說我們是希望能夠提供給各部會能夠來參考然後作為他整個改善整個措施的一句"},{"start":519.46,"end":542.672,"text":"主計長我的意思就是這樣因為你看一下我們剛才那個圖嘛你看他最後你們是做到2021嘛我要講的是說對你剛剛講的什麼租金補貼都對這個就是我們講的我們政策做很多但是人民之所以無感是那些低所得的人你看一下他的那個成長的幅度"},{"start":544.306,"end":545.427,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":561.528,"end":587.282,"text":"就是希望說我們主計總處我是希望啦包括我們你們所做的這些什麼國民所得統計、物價統計、社會保障支出、人力工序、中央調查、基本國事調查、家庭收支統計我是希望說更積極主動的去銜接各部會的選擇而且我是希望啦主計總處要作為一個國家警報台啦你們要市警啦"},{"start":588.162,"end":612.412,"text":"因為你們掌握這一些分析統計資料因為我們看到我們真的做很多但是現狀實際你們做出來的分析統計就是沒有嘛所以我希望再更積極一點做市警的角色好不好那最後一個小小的問題啦因為我們經常在處理那個木林什麼工作要點等等之類但是呢每一次呢他們都會說啊我們還要跟主計總處討論啊"},{"start":614.933,"end":619.936,"text":"我舉個簡單的例子假設像那個木鈴經費他要他們說因為是噪音所以他只補助他們去做那些什麼隔音的設備他說我總不能天天買冷氣天天做那個窗戶吧你們噪音的時候你應該允許我我那個禮拜我們可以出去旅遊啊他們就會說哎呀那個主計總處會不答應啦有些科目不能織我想請教一下主計長真的是這樣嗎"},{"start":642.449,"end":642.789,"text":"主席請這個主計長"}]}},{"id":"153276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331bb801da874971b555c2a8e696f21355cc09f7998a2d5a4c1aaab6b1aed7c96905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:29:07 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11:40:28","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":681,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:40:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:29:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時29分）謝謝主席，我們請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。請教一下主計長，我們前瞻計畫的預算是到哪一年結束？"],["陳主計長淑姿：到114年，整個8,400億，到114年剩下703億。"],["李委員坤城：預算呢？明年還會有前瞻計畫的預算嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為前瞻計畫是整個計畫，當初有核定通過，所以我們原則上是會把整個計畫執行完畢。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是，現在開始要編明年度的預算了，那明年度還有這個前瞻計畫的預算嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為前瞻計畫是8年，最後一年就是114年度有剩下703億的部分，這個部分我們原則上是會把它籌編。"],["李委員坤城：就是說明年的前瞻計畫預算還有七百多億就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，703億。"],["李委員坤城：好。現在我比較關心的是，在我自己的選區，不管在三重或是新北市，我們有很多的交通建設、軌道建設都是仰賴政府的前瞻預算，如果前瞻預算只到明年就結束了，接下來比如說我們北環、南環都還在蓋，還有三重過去也爭取了很多地下停車場，現在也還要持續來爭取，如果前瞻預算只編到明年，這個特別預算就沒有了，但是接下來這些軌道建設陸陸續續都還在做，不是只有新北，臺北也在做，接下來如果沒有這筆特別預算來挹注的話，因為我看光是前瞻預算八千億來講，軌道建設就占了一半、占了四千億，如果沒有前瞻預算挹注的話，接下來新北的軌道建設該怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：坦白說，我們目前有很大的壓力，因為如果之後前瞻預算沒有的話，將來各項工程如果進入支付的高峰期，再來都要把它到年度預算裡面來容納，但年度預算裡面的財源是固定的，所以就會有一些優先順序排列的問題。"],["李委員坤城：有些預算就被排擠了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，就會有排擠的狀況，這個部分，當然114年至少還有703億，但是目前交通建設、各項的建設都已經進入支付的高峰期，所以需求就會變大，但是703億之後……"],["李委員坤城：703億分配到軌道建設才多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以等於115年以後，籌編就會更為困難。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，光是這個七百多億，我不知道有關軌道建設是多少，但是光是新北市的北環、南環，這個預算大概五、六千億以上跑不掉啦！就像你講的，接下來開始在做了，好不容易也發包出去，開始在做了，每年、每年都要付預算，如果政府沒有再有這個特別預算下去挹注的話，就會排擠到交通部的本預算。所以我想請問主計長，如果這樣子的話，接下來還會用特別預算的方式來做處理嗎？還是這個多出來的預算就會編列到各部會，你這個預算的錢要怎麼編得出來啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為其實預算的編列是看各部會提出的需求，再來如果前瞻計畫沒有的話，將來它勢必會衝擊到年度預算，等於說年度公共建設的預算額度勢必要做大幅的增加，這個部分也必須要看財源能不能容納以及能容納多少，這個部分我們必須看財政部的狀況，畢竟在114年或者115年以後，他要針對他歲入財源做估算。"],["李委員坤城：就我來講，如果你沒有持續用特別預算來支應的話，你所增加的預算一定會大幅排擠本來各部會的預算，尤其是交通部。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是一定的。"],["李委員坤城：你看，我跟交通部爭取要做地下停車場，他說地下停車場的預算已經用完了，還說接下來如果沒有編特別預算的話，他就要用交通部的部預算。老實講，他大概就不會用了，他就叫地方政府用自己的經費來做啦！但是對很多新北地區，以我自己的選區來講，如果遇到這種情況的話，大概要爭取地下停車場就很困難了啦！所以我是認為這些持續的計畫，應該還是要用特別預算來支應，不然真的會很嚴重地排擠到各部會自己原本的預算，主計長的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這也要看整個政策方向，是不是要提特別預算，也應該要按部會的需求來看。"],["李委員坤城：我先不說各部會，因為你是最後，各部會會送到你那邊去嘛！主計長認為是不是還要再用特別預算的方式來支應？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為也有很多委員針對特別預算有所質疑，所以這個部分也必須看院裡頭針對這個部分的研議情形是怎麼樣，然後再看要怎麼樣來做討論。"],["李委員坤城：但是如果沒有這些特別預算來支應的話，我是認為，第一個，建設要延續下去，勢必就會排擠到其他各部會原本的預算，這部分行政院自己要去討論好，如果到明年前瞻預算真的計畫也結束的時候，我認為其他的子計畫還好，但是有關軌道這方面，你如果沒有用特別預算來支應的話，我覺得會是很困難的事情。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以各項計畫優先順序的排列就很重要，然後各部會也要有所取捨。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再來請教主計長，剛剛你有提到今年度的GDP，你認為GDP3.5%以上沒有問題？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是以第一季來估算且其他條件不變的話，以前面三、四個月這樣的情況來換算，應該超過3.5%是OK的，等於我粗估，如果以現在發生實際前三個月情況去估算，且後面條件都維持不動的話，3.5%是OK，但是還是要等到明天，我們30日會有一個小組針對這個討論以後，真正的數據他會做公布。"],["李委員坤城：對，我看主計長是滿樂觀的，我們卓院長說希望有3.5%，我看你早上有說甚至會更高，到三點多。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個數字我不敢講，這個部分我也不能公布數字，但是這個部分明天討論之後，我們就會公布。"],["李委員坤城：如果按照你現在的估算的話，會比3.5%高，你認為有哪些變數會受到影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然，電費調整，成本會增加，相對的對GDP會有一些影響，然後包括譬如說地緣政治、有一些戰爭因素的影響……"],["李委員坤城：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：戰爭的影響或是地緣政治的一些影響，都會影響到我們整個GDP的……"],["李委員坤城：但整體來講，全年度還是樂觀的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上初步來講，以第一季來看是樂觀的。"],["李委員坤城：好。你剛才有提到台電的問題，台電的話，你們有送一千億的增加預算到立法院來嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為現在國民黨跟民眾黨在國會是多數，如果他們不讓增加預算通過的話，該怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為你如果不給台電，其實最主要是做虧損的補貼，因為他有一些燃料成本，他必須要……如果不調整電價的話，他就必須要去做一些虧損的補貼，不然的話，他沒有辦法繼續運作，所以如果……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，如果在野黨不讓你追加預算通過的話，該怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分就變成是台電應該要再研擬相關的措施，至於他的措施到底是要調整電價還是怎麼樣的方式……"],["李委員坤城：不是，電價他現在不讓你調整啦！現在電價部分他要修改電業法，就是說要立法院同意，電價才能調整嘛！所以我是問你，在這種情況下，如果在野黨對於追加預算也不讓你過，然後也不讓台電漲價的話，該怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以如果台電在營運的部分必須要舉債，他就應該要去借錢，但是借錢的話，他的營運成本又增加，所以這個部分就是有一些惡性循環。"],["李委員坤城：所以最後還是回到羊毛出在羊身上這個問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["李委員坤城：台電在112年、113年，連同今年的追加預算，你們已經給他三千五百億了，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員坤城：老實講，台電的虧損……"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該是將近四千億了。"],["李委員坤城：多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：四千億。"],["李委員坤城：四千億了？這樣子的話，去年是因為我們有賺錢，所以我們又多給台電一千億，但這個對台電來講也不是長久的辦法，台電該怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這個部分，因為就他整個營運的狀況來講，應該是要做一些相關的調整。"],["李委員坤城：電價調整？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，或者是……這個部分應該要看台電將來要怎麼樣去做一些措施的……"],["李委員坤城：台電會把他們虧損的預算列在他們的預算裡面，但是經濟部那邊好像有些意見。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為我們也有對台電……等於說兩年四千億有一些是屬於增資，如果真正不行，也可以虧損彌補做一個虧損的調整，現在營運的話，營運成本的部分，它如果去舉借，錢不夠去借款，那就是增加一些成本，大概目前的措施是這樣，如果它沒有調整電價的話；它如果調整電價，整個狀況就會比較好，所以這要看台電它整個措施是怎麼樣來辦理，所以要看台電的作法。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝，謝謝主計長，謝謝主席。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","接著我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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台北也在做接下來如果沒有這筆特別預算來挹注的話因為我看光是我們前瞻預算來講8千億軌道建設就佔了一半 佔了4千億如果沒有前瞻預算的挹注的話接下來我們在新北 我們自己的軌道建設該怎麼辦"},{"start":120.835,"end":148.715,"text":"原則上坦白說我們目前也有很大的壓力因為如果在前瞻計畫沒有的話前瞻預算沒有的話將來各項工程如果進入支付的高峰期那再來都要把它到年度預算裡面來容納那年度預算裡面的那財源是固定的所以你就會有一些優先順序排列就預算就排擠了嗎是就會有排擠的一個狀況所以這個部分當然"},{"start":149.856,"end":176.031,"text":"到時候就是114年至少還有703億嘛但是目前交通建設各項的建設都已經進入支付的高峰期所以需求就會變大但是703億分配到軌道建設才多少對所以等於說115年以後籌編就會更為困難對啊光是這個700多億我不知道說有關軌道建設是多少但是光是我自己在新北市的北環南環這個"},{"start":177.915,"end":182.072,"text":"預算大概五六千億以上啦是跑不掉啦"},{"start":182.967,"end":209.728,"text":"對阿 那就像你講的接下來開始在做了那好不容易也發報出去開始在做了那每年每年都要付預算阿那如果說我們政府沒有在特別有這個特別預算下去挹注的話那就會排擠到交通部的本預算那所以我想請問一下主計長那如果這樣子的話接下來還會用特別預算的方式來做處理嗎那還是說這個多出來預算那好就編列到各部會那你這個你這個預算這個錢要怎麼編的出來阿"},{"start":211.75,"end":226.899,"text":"因為其實是預算的一個編列是看各部會的一個需求他提出的一個需求那當然你如果說再來就是會如果全山計畫沒有的話那將來他勢必要去衝擊到年度的一個預算"},{"start":228.28,"end":245.146,"text":"等於說年度的一個公共建設的一個預算他的額度可能是度勢必要做大幅的一個增加那這個部分也必須要看財源能不能容納容納多少這個部分必須我們必須看財政部他畢竟在1114年或者115年後以後他針針對他稅務財源的一個估算"},{"start":251.636,"end":277.013,"text":"就我來講如果你沒有在持續在用特別預算來指引的話你這個所增加的這些預算一定會大幅排擠本來的這一個各部會的預算尤其是交通部你看嘛交通部我跟他爭取那個要做這個地下停車場他說地下停車場的預算已經用完了欸已經用完了欸那他說接下來如果沒有編特別預算的話他要用他本這個交通部的這個"},{"start":277.933,"end":278.093,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":298.131,"end":298.912,"text":"主計長的看法呢?"},{"start":310.67,"end":327.649,"text":"這也要看我們整個一個政策的那個是不是要提特別預算也應該要按部會的一個需求來看那我先不用說各部會啦因為你是最後各部會送到你這邊去嘛那主計長認為說那是不是還要再用特別預算的方式來做質疑"},{"start":328.536,"end":343.249,"text":"因為也有很多的委員針對特別預算有所質疑那在這個部分也必須要看院裡頭府城這邊來針對這個部分的一個研議看情形是怎麼樣然後看是怎麼樣來做討論"},{"start":345.678,"end":365.788,"text":"但是如果沒有這些特別預算做指引的話我是認為第一個建設延續下去你就會勢必排擠到說其他各部會原本的預算那如果這個你們自己可能自己行政院你們要去討論好如果說到明年這個潛在預算真的計畫也結束的時候接下來"},{"start":366.928,"end":368.148,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":395.487,"end":420.636,"text":"如果是我以第一季來去估算的話然後其他條件不變我前面三四個月這樣的一個換算來換算應該是超過3.5是OK就是等於我初估如果以前以現在發生實際前三個月情況去估算然後後面條件都維持不動是3.5是OK但是還是要等到明天我們30號會有一個小組針對這個討論以後真正的數據他會做公佈"},{"start":424.133,"end":449.382,"text":"我看這個主計長是蠻熱觀的齁這個我們卓院長說希望有3.5然後我看您早上有說這個甚至會更高到這個多少3點多這個數字我不敢講啦但是這個部分我也不能公布數字但是這個部分明天討論之後我們就會公布那這個如果按照你現在預算的這個估算的話會比3.5高那你認為會有哪些變數會受到影響因為當然"},{"start":453.455,"end":480.849,"text":"電費調整成本會增加嘛相對的對GDP會有一些的影響啦這個部分然後包括譬如說如果是政治的因素地緣政治有一些戰爭的一些因素的影響戰爭的影響地緣政治的一些影響都會影響到我們整個GDP的一個那個但整體來講全年度還是樂觀的原則上初步來講以第一季來看是樂觀的"},{"start":482.008,"end":498.717,"text":"好那你看有提到那個台電的問題啦齁台電的話你們有送這個一千億的這個增加預算到立法院來嘛對不對那如果這個立法院因為現在這個國民黨跟民眾黨在國會是多數嘛那如果他不讓這個預算增加預算這個通過的話該怎麼辦"},{"start":501.203,"end":506.489,"text":"如果不調整電價的話,他就必須要去做一些虧損的補貼,那不然的話他沒有辦法繼續去運作。那所以如果這一條通過的話該怎麼辦?"},{"start":522.15,"end":544.805,"text":"那這個部分就變成是說臺電他應該要再研擬相關的一個措施那他的措施到底是要調整電價還是怎麼樣的一個方式電價他現在也不讓你調整啊他現在電價他修改這個電業法就是說要立法院同意電價才能調整嘛所以我是問你說在這種情況下如果說在野黨他這個追加預算也不讓你過然後臺電他也不讓他漲價的話怎麼辦"},{"start":546.546,"end":546.566,"text":"這老實講齁"},{"start":574.813,"end":581.475,"text":"昨年是因為我們有賺錢所以我們就多一千億給台電這個對台電來講也不是長久的辦法那台電該怎麼辦"},{"start":596.067,"end":605.161,"text":"所以這個部分因為就它整個營運的狀況來講的話應該是要做一些相關的一個調整"},{"start":608.779,"end":611.501,"text":"台電會把他們虧損的預算列在他們的預算裡面但是經濟部那邊好像有些意見"},{"start":629.885,"end":653.358,"text":"因為我們也有做對台電等於說我們去年兩年4千億總共有一些是屬於增資那如果說真正的不行也可以做虧損彌補做一個調整做一個虧損的一個調整那現在營運的話如果營運成本的部分如果錢不夠去借款那就是增加一些成本"},{"start":653.678,"end":654.198,"text":"李坤城委員"}]}},{"id":"153275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133137d70ff7e67e7ec25c2a8e696f21355cc09f7998a2d5a4c127b0ad6b5d167d2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:19:15 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xt":"25年了25年我很認真地去找出主計長你在2008年在台南市主計處長的任內念成大的研究所的碩士論文您在碩士論文的時候您還記得您說過什麼嗎"},{"start":46.349,"end":63.93,"text":"我那時候是有主張說要修正才華法啦你那時候在民國88年以後的97年的你的碩士論文說因為配合精神將一頁稅從地方稅劃入國稅認為造成嚴重的縣市財政收支失衡"},{"start":64.551,"end":81.645,"text":"最重要是中央集權又集錢地方有責卻無權也無錢所以你認為目前不足以解決地方政府所面臨的問題還有修法的必要所以才化法應該要儘速修法主計長97年到現在又過了10多年"},{"start":82.639,"end":84.34,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款：一般性補助款："},{"start":105.691,"end":106.051,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":121.004,"end":122.725,"text":"不要換了位置就換了腦袋"},{"start":142.253,"end":155.385,"text":"你了解地方的財政困難你也了解中央這個法律已經25年沒有修訂你也了解現在中央的分配方式其實是沒有一定的規範所以我只要求一個"},{"start":156.448,"end":171.981,"text":"接下去財政委員會要開始審財政收支劃分法我希望主計處你可以答應我做一件事就是用至少用111年的決算把那一年度的相關的預算跟統籌分配稅款按照現在財委會有16個版本"},{"start":175.024,"end":201.924,"text":"這16個版本每個都有不同的公式你用一個年度的預算來計算整個model然後提出各個部分版本可能影響到的地方財政的分配還有中央的預算的執行就這個部分做出一個不同比對的相關的模組出來提供給財委會接下來要審議的委員們大家可以看到說按照A版本應該會怎麼分B版本會怎麼分會影響什麼這個在我們的財委會"},{"start":204.286,"end":213.968,"text":"出審的過程中由主計處先把預算針對現有的版本先做出一個基本的模組出來主計處可不可以先做到這件事"},{"start":215.659,"end":241.541,"text":"報告委員因為財政：這個部分是財政部主導那整個統籌分配稅的部分是財政：統籌分配稅是他主導錢是你在分嘛所以你們的模組是你預算執行跟決算的數字由你來做計算按照這個版本你會算出什麼樣的方式你要找財政部去研擬我也沒有意見但是我認為這是主計處你們現有的數字就可以推算出來的"},{"start":242.442,"end":259.451,"text":"一般我們是一般性的補助那如果統籌分配稅款是財政部那是不是請委員就是說這個部分就是分配縣市的這個部分是不是我也會找財政部但是我的意思說您的部分就你所業管的部分你也做出模組假如"},{"start":261.272,"end":284.546,"text":"這個版本有影響到地方分配的部分跟主計處有關的你也做出這個模組來所以我們是希望說我們跟財政部來配合因為如果財委會的委員要審查接下來的財政收支劃分法必須要很清楚的知道我們接下去的修訂的公式會對地方稅制有什麼樣的影響這個可能需要主計處跟財政部的配合"},{"start":285.166,"end":285.747,"text":"同樣的問題這個修法迫在眉睫"},{"start":301.007,"end":325.997,"text":"賴總統在2012年他在台南市長的時候說要修訂2017年他當行政院長的時候也說要修訂我想知道因為蔡英文總統是目前為止唯一一個沒有提過財化法修正的版本的總統接下去的賴總統他請你來當主計長財化法立法院也有版本了我想問一下賴總統有沒有自己的版本"},{"start":327.762,"end":339.827,"text":"你來當主計長有沒有人跟你說過你要做自己的版本沒有沒有什麼時候會告訴我們你們會不會有自己的版本或至少配合立法院的版本行政院也有相關的立場"},{"start":340.937,"end":369.513,"text":"這要由財政部來做決定這不是我能決定的所以我希望一樣不要換了位置換了腦袋地方政府的困難我想你比誰都清楚第二個這個部分應該怎麼樣讓它法制化明文化跟透明化讓地方政府不再養中央的鼻息而它可以有自由裁員而且它可以維持財務的穩健好嗎主計長這是我對你的期許我也希望你把地方政府的經驗帶到中央來而是讓"},{"start":370.373,"end":394.047,"text":"各個地方政府能夠更加的財政健全第二個部分很特別我想問一下主計處其實一直在推所謂的經費結算系統電子化最後一里路我想知道現在主計處尤其是您在當主計長接下去我們所謂的電子化核銷的作業有沒有什麼進展有沒有什麼計畫時間暫停"},{"start":401.093,"end":416.675,"text":"這我請同仁來補充資料那現在呢要不要來講一下是主席處對電子核銷有沒有什麼想法有沒有什麼計畫有沒有什麼政策"},{"start":418.509,"end":437.489,"text":"報告委員目前我們主計總處有發展一套公用性捷報系統另外我們也那個協助各單位來制建系統還有那個引用我們主計處的系統主計長我的意思是說在我們在臺北市的時候其實有推動所謂的"},{"start":438.59,"end":463.729,"text":"政府電子化核銷作業然後臺北市目前為止至少在我們離任之前109年他節省電子化核銷的件數是10萬件節省掉了9100多個工作日省掉了222萬張H4紙也就是我們現在的公務系統還是很多要黏貼要做很多那財政部不斷的在推動電子化電子發票"},{"start":464.189,"end":464.409,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":483.334,"end":512.577,"text":"財政部不斷的推廣電子核銷電子發票但是政府部門沒有往前走我們當然不希望影響到一般的中小店家但是電子化是政府應該走的路主計長這個部分是不是也要有一些未來的計畫我希望你不要多一個月給我一個你初步的想法如果地方政府臺北市政府目前電子核銷到達到99%我不相信地方政府做不到我也不相信中央政府做不到"},{"start":514.429,"end":529.435,"text":"我們現在目前112年有448個中央機關來使用經費解報系統那我們CBA也有去借台北市政府相關的一個系統那所以我們會努力來推動這一個顯然還是太過於"},{"start":530.675,"end":557.379,"text":"只是鼓勵性質太過於鬆散第二個效益不高第三個跟我們政府的國策好像沒有跟上來尤其是如果財政部拼命在推但是政府部門應該優先來做我希望一個月之內針對電子化的部分請主計長給我一個初步的計畫跟未來的規劃至少有個方向你可以不用一開始強力推但是你總要開始做"},{"start":557.899,"end":558.6,"text":"李坤誠委員"}]}},{"id":"153274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331a9f7bf16672018d35c2a8e696f21355cc09f7998a2d5a4c18eab79561b69ec085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:06:38 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11:19:06","影片長度":"00:12:28","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":748,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:19:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:06:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時6分）謝謝，我可以請主計長嗎？"],["主席：有請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長好。今天是你在立法院的第一天，接受我們的質詢，首先要先恭喜你，但是我想你也非常清楚，過去你都是在臺南市持家，現在則是掌握整個國家，過去的持家，我想你一定非常清楚瞭解地方的感受。過去無論是地方的財源來自促參，包括委外的經營、包括地上權、包括市地重劃，來去處理，想辦法東擠西挪、想辦法去找錢，但是我們都知道巧婦難為無米之炊。所以，過去無論是臺南市長的賴清德、擔任副總統的賴清德、擔任行政院長的賴清德，對於過去長期都用人口做財劃法的劃分，跟給各地方縣市的財源，其實過去賴清德也說對臺南市非常不公平，臺南是文化的首都，單純以人口做為分配的依據，他覺得是有調整的必要。我先就這個問題請教，財劃法已經25年沒有修了，現在很多區域立委、各政黨對於財劃法的處理都有想法，也提案，我先請教主計長，對於財劃法25年沒修，你覺得該不該修？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，財劃法的主導單位是財政部，財劃法為什麼會這麼多年一直沒有修，是因為它修也有它的困難，畢竟各縣市的條件不一樣，財政的負擔和差距也不一樣。所以在財政劃分法的原則下，我們是希望，第一個，各縣市財政能夠自主；第二……"],["李委員彥秀：我今天時間不多，每一個委員也只有8分鐘而已，我只想問你，你在地方待過，現在來到中央，你現在是主計長，對於財劃法的修正，你覺得有沒有必要修正？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果說我是臺南市政府主計處處長，我會希望修正，因為我希望取得更多的財源，越多越好。"],["李委員彥秀：對嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是如果站在全國的立場，我希望能夠調劑盈虛，因為每個縣市都不一樣，它的條件都不相同，財政的差距也不相同，所以中央必須要有一個額度給它來做調整的作用。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你到底是支不支持？我聽不懂，你說了半天。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我就說現行的制度是不是有分配公平，因為以現行來講……"],["李委員彥秀：所以才要討論嘛！所以你到底支不支持？哪一個版本我們可以討論，但是你覺得該不該處理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是以現狀來講，透過一般縣市的補助，包括計畫型的計畫補助，它都能夠調整各縣市、符合各縣市的需求……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，你就知道那都要看中央的臉色，有的有、有的沒有，所以我覺得制度化的處理，或我們更明確的討論是有必要性的，所以你剛才在浪費我的時間。我剛剛有提出來，你感受最深，那都要看中央的臉色，這一筆給你，那一筆不給你，每一年的狀況不一樣，對地方財政，每一年你有多少錢可以做多少事情，你不確定性就增加了嘛！這個你比我更清楚，你不要換了一個位置就換了腦袋，我們來看一下過去賴清德怎麼講？你看擔任市長的賴清德，臺南市財政大感吃力，財劃法沒有通過，自有財源比例是非常低的；但是行政院長賴清德講說，財政收支劃分法修正案，行政院一定要正視這個問題，兩次的行政院院長賴清德都支持財劃法要處理。這件事情我要提醒你，不要換了一個位置就換了一個腦袋，我想你來自地方，你更知道地方的痛苦，所以這件事情你應該大力疾呼，你現在擔任國家的大掌櫃──主計長，這件事情要怎麼處理？既然市長賴清德支持、行政院長賴清德支持，你過去在臺南市擔任主計處長的時候也支持，沒有道理你擔任國家大掌櫃，你換了一個屁股換了一個腦袋，我們怎麼對人民交代？至於什麼樣的方向，我覺得大家可以再來討論，不處理是無法交代的，好不好？這個是我第一個問題，我不希望這件事情再一次跳票！","我們也特別講說，過去幾年中央財政都很好，歲計賸餘都很多啊！今年看起來我們的經濟成長率又到6.53%，看起來就不錯啊！你不能說中央吃肉叫地方都吃骨頭，連肉渣都沒有看到，這是我的重點，所以我還是希望主計長這邊要跟卓院長、跟賴總統討論一下，特別是這個議題有沒有討論過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們是還沒有討論過，因為這是財政部主導，我們還是會配合財政部。"],["李委員彥秀：後面也會影響到你，因為你如果分給地方，你這一邊的錢就比較少可以放在身上，所以我才問說你的意願怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以一般性的補助……"],["李委員彥秀：你不要一直推給財政部，這都是連帶的關係，你很清楚嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：對不對？所以……"],["陳主計長淑姿：它如果有修正的話，我們這邊也一定要配合做調整。"],["李委員彥秀：所以卓院長的態度怎麼樣？我們好幾個立委都有版本啊！你的態度怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們還不……"],["李委員彥秀：你支持，你有沒有跟卓院長討論過這件事情？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：你內部都沒有討論過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們再來要做業務報告，可能要針對這個部分也做一些討論。"],["李委員彥秀：好，那麼我期待下一次，我還是會繼續追蹤這個問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：我來看看過去臺南市的主計處處長、現在國家大掌櫃──中央的主計長，到底有沒有換了一個屁股換了一個腦袋？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你也要想辦法落實賴總統、賴市長、賴行政院長的政策，到底有沒有做調整？好，我第二個問題就是要請教，現在有關通膨跟經濟成長率的問題，我先請教主計長，我們今年首季的經濟成長率預估達到6.51%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：明天你們要舉辦國民所得的評審會議？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：最近我看到我們今年第一季的經濟成長率其實是不錯的，我們看看2023年11月的經濟成長率是3.35%，通膨是1.64%；2024年2月經濟成長率3.43%，通膨是1.85%。每3個月做一次，我有看到一個數字，主計長，你們明天要公布的這個數字，經濟成長率是3.57%，通膨是1.9%，是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，因為第一季我們的經濟成長率是6.51%啦，所以我們本來是預估……"],["李委員彥秀：3.57%跟1.9%這個數字，這是我在媒體上看到的，數字是這樣嗎？明天你們要開的國民所得評審會議上是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，按照道理，因為我們……"],["李委員彥秀：所以這個數字是報錯了，媒體寫錯了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我現在要說明一下，就是說按照道理，這數據我們不能外洩，但是你如果說用……"],["李委員彥秀：所以這個數字是錯的？不是這兩個數字？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，你如果用其他條件都不變，我用前4個月經濟成長的一個情形再重新去換算，換算出來的結果會得到3.57%這樣子，但是明天開會的結果到底是怎麼樣，這個必須看明天開會的結果，然後整個開會的結果我們也會對外……"],["李委員彥秀：你剛剛講說是其他數字換算，加了其他的因素算出來還是3.57？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是以1到4月實際發生狀況去推算的結果，其他條件後面就是原預估的不變，這樣的話……"],["李委員彥秀：才有3.57？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原來是3.43會調整到3.57。"],["李委員彥秀：明天這個數字會出來，加上其他的因素才會是3.57跟1.9，是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，第一個，1到4月是確認的數字去推算其他後面條件不變的原則上，去換算出來是3.57，但是明天整個開會的結果是怎麼樣，就必須要看當天開會的結果，然後我們整個結果會發布新聞這樣子。"],["李委員彥秀：所以結論還是換算出來，最後的結果還是3.57跟1.9？"],["陳主計長淑姿：1.9的部分，事實上通貨膨脹的部分，我們本來是預估1.85%，但是我如果把間接和直接的因素考慮進去的話，按照道理電價的影響它是4月開始嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：5月就會感受到了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，5月就會感受到，然後後面的影響大概是沒有一整年啦，就是等於說……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，所以……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這樣子大概是2.03啦！"],["李委員彥秀：喔！這樣就衝破楊金龍防線了，楊金龍防線2.0%是人民極感痛苦呢！2.0%你我都知道，因為我們都是女性嘛！常常在買東西，我們感受度會很深的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，是。"],["李委員彥秀：2.0%是楊金龍防線，那麼我就要請問主計長，我們今年看起來經濟成長率是不錯，但事實上有沒有那麼樂觀啊？因為我們出口的存貨率事實上都已經高於我們過去的平均值，過去平均值是65%，我們現在是87.2%，所以經濟有沒有真的那麼樂觀？我覺得還是未知數，要參考、要去思考喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員彥秀：剛才我聽到其他委員有請教您，就是我們去年的受僱人員實質薪資是負成長，對不對？你知道已經負成長幾年了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是今年有正成長啊！今年第一季……"],["李委員彥秀：第一季嘛！第一季是負的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：去年是負成長，今年第一季已經正成長了。"],["李委員彥秀：那麼整年度會不會正成長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該預估是OK的啦！"],["李委員彥秀：你預估是OK的？你看好今年是正成長，因為今年通膨率到底2%到多少還不知道。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是如果說我換算通膨率，現在第一季的通膨率換算之後是成長0.88%啦！"],["李委員彥秀：所以你比過去的朱澤民、朱大掌櫃，主計長，你對於今年民眾的經濟成長率，還有包括通膨的狀況，我覺得你還是滿樂觀的啦！過去人民的實質總薪資已經連續幾年負成長，你知道嗎？召委，我最後一個問題，你知道幾年嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：總薪資只有去年是負成長。"],["李委員彥秀：負成長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是經常性的實質薪資，你知道已經幾年了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是有三年啦！"],["李委員彥秀：有三年喔！好，今年你認為可以轉正就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，其實今年第一季的經常性薪資是有增加，但是它如果換算通膨膨脹率的話，就會變成是減少0.09%啦！"],["李委員彥秀：但還是正的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是啊，但是總薪資是增加0.88%。"],["李委員彥秀：我問的是受僱人員經常性的實質薪資今年會轉正？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為總薪資……"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得會轉正，因為朱澤民之前回答我是一半一半，你預估是會轉正就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為總薪資是整個進到……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，總薪資我知道……"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為總薪資是增加的……"],["李委員彥秀：我問的是受僱人員經常性實質薪資？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是經常性薪資我不敢講，因為經常性薪資大概就是這個水準，但是這個水準轉換成通貨膨脹率的部分，大概就是……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你不確定多少的比例？"],["陳主計長淑姿：負一點點啦！"],["李委員彥秀：多少？50、50，你還是50、50，還是沒有機會？你沒有回答我的問題，你講了半天，你看召委已經站起來了，到底你的看法是什麼？你不會沒有想法啊！"],["主席：請主計長會後補充一些資料。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：他回答我就好，最後一句，到底是多少？50、50？還是沒有機會？還是負成長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分如果是以現在這樣子來看的話，它就是以現在這個狀況來呈現啦！對，因為經常性薪資大概普遍是現在這樣。"],["李委員彥秀：正的還是負的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：負一點點啦。"],["李委員彥秀：負一點點，所以還是負的，好。謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝李彥秀委員質詢。","接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.27534375,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.76784375,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.93659375,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.98721875,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.08409375,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.330343750000004,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.41034375,"end":64.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.39221875,"end":77.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.89221875,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.97596875,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.55784375,"end":98.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.49659375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.37159375,"end":115.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.35409375,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.14159375,"end":155.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.44034375,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.25159375,"end":155.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.14596875,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.97159375,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":164.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.96721875,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.64221875,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.97534375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.03846875000002,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.74534375000002,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.09971875000002,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.11659375000002,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.21784375000001,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.24096875,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.17909375000002,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.92471875,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.91909375,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.57221875,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.10284375000003,"end":293.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.60096875,"end":295.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.35596875000005,"end":296.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.16596875000005,"end":297.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.24596875000003,"end":299.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.64659375,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.22846875000005,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.40971875,"end":303.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.42659375,"end":312.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.25659375000004,"end":320.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.96034375,"end":319.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.55034375,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.03534375000004,"end":332.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.62596875,"end":323.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.53721875,"end":325.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.67096875000004,"end":332.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.68346875000003,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.88596875,"end":338.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.49284375,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.69096875,"end":342.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.07034375,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.85909375,"end":346.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.42409375,"end":350.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.17034375000003,"end":367.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.41034375000004,"end":354.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.72096875,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.85534375000003,"end":403.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.46409375,"end":387.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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主席"},{"start":303.462,"end":304.423,"text":"所以卓院長的態度怎麼樣?"},{"start":333.735,"end":333.975,"text":"主席"},{"start":344.625,"end":359.71,"text":"那你內部都沒有討論過我們再來要做業務報告可能要針對這個部分也做好那我期待下一次我還是會繼續追這個問題我來看看過去台南市的主計長現在國家大黨會中央的國際處長現在的我們主計長到底有沒有換了一個屁股換了一個腦袋也要想辦法要落實賴總統賴市長賴行政院長政策到底有沒有做調整"},{"start":371.533,"end":372.555,"text":"通膨與經濟成長率問題今年首季經濟成長率預估達到6.51明天舉辦國民所得評審會議"},{"start":387.856,"end":399.303,"text":"最近我看到我們今年其實首一季的經濟成長率是不錯的我們看看2023年的11月經濟成長率是3.35%通膨是1.642022月每三個月做一次經濟成長率3.43通膨1.85我有看到一個數字主計長我們明年要公佈的這個數字經濟成長率是3.57我們通膨是1.9是這樣嗎"},{"start":419.265,"end":427.511,"text":"這個部分像因為第一季我們的經濟成長是6.51所以本身我們本來是預估這個數字3.57跟1.9這個是我在媒體上看到數字是這樣嗎明天我們要開會的國民所得評審會議上是這樣嗎"},{"start":435.418,"end":435.458,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":455.058,"end":455.518,"text":"其他數字換算加了其他的因素算出來還是3.57"},{"start":476.55,"end":494.009,"text":"就是以1到4月實際發生的狀況去推算的結果其他條件後面的就是原預估的不變這樣的話才有3.57那也是以明天的這個數字會出來那加上其他的因素才會是3.57跟1.9"},{"start":496.155,"end":496.875,"text":"所以結論還是換算出來最後的結果還是3.57跟1.9"},{"start":519.221,"end":542.346,"text":"1.9的部分事實上通貨膨脹的部分我們本來是預估1.85但是我如果把那個間接和直接的因素考慮進去的話按照道理電價的影響他是4月開始5月就會感受到了5月就會感受到然後後面的影響就是大概是沒有一整年就是等於說主席長所以這樣叫大概2.03"},{"start":544.446,"end":544.686,"text":"那我就要請問主計長"},{"start":561.403,"end":575.53,"text":"我們今年看起來經濟成長率是不錯但事實上有沒有那麼樂觀因為我們的出口的存貨率事實上都已經高於我們過去的平均值過去平均值65%我們現在87.2%所以經濟有沒有那麼樂觀我覺得還是未知數要參考要去思考那剛才我聽到其他委員有請教您就是說我們"},{"start":586.315,"end":611.148,"text":"去年的收購員工實質薪資是負成長嘛 對不對你知道負成長多久了 幾年啊但是今年有正成長嘛 今年第一季第一季嘛 第一季是負的去年是負成長 今年第一季已經正成長了那整年度會不會正成長應該預估是OK的你預估是OK的 你看好今年是正成長"},{"start":612.754,"end":614.717,"text":"但是如果說我換算通膨現在第一季的通膨換算之後我是成長0.88"},{"start":624.293,"end":636.827,"text":"所以你比過去的朱哲銘、朱大掌櫃你對於今年民眾的經濟成長率還有包括通膨的狀況我覺得你還是蠻樂觀的啦你覺得實質人民的實質因為過去實質總薪資已經連續幾年負成長你知道嗎"},{"start":644.943,"end":646.104,"text":"總薪資只有去年是副成長,經常性的實質薪資只有3年,今年可以轉正就對了"},{"start":660.573,"end":687.759,"text":"因為今年其實今年的第一季的那個經常性薪資他是有增加但是他如果換算那個通膨的一個膨脹率的部分通膨的綠綠的話就會變成是減少0.09但還是正的嗎但是總薪資是增加0.88但我問的是受僱人員經常性的實質薪資今年會轉正你覺得會轉正因為朱哲銘之前回答我是一半一半"},{"start":689.08,"end":716.562,"text":"你預估是會轉正就對了總薪資是整個進口我知道總薪資我知道我問的是受僱人員的經常性的實施薪資經常性薪資我不敢講因為經常性薪資大概就是這個水準但是這個水準轉換通貨膨脹率的部分所以你不確定多少的比例多少50 50你還是50 50還是沒有機會你沒有回答我問題你看稍微已經站起來到底你的看法是什麼"},{"start":717.503,"end":717.743,"text":"黃珊珊委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13318e6412ef1787f8f35c2a8e696f21355cc09f7998a2d5a4c166cf6490c12c7ea85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:55:59 - 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是這樣"},{"start":271.035,"end":280.742,"text":"主計長有幾個我倒是覺得有隱憂的地方也就是說我們這是因為產業業務緊縮的關係這種結構性失業結構性失業的人數我們再度超過10萬人所以你認為這原因是什麼是"},{"start":294.392,"end":318.686,"text":"如何來避免我們這種結構性的失業啦?比方說產業的移轉那這五個月來平均這五個月來從去年底到現在我們都維持在10萬人左右這種結構性的失業你認為這有什麼樣的方式可以避免嗎?"},{"start":319.835,"end":344.631,"text":"事實上我們最近的結構性失業都維持很穩定就是在10萬人左右所以這本身的這個狀況也都遠遠低於疫情前所以這個部分其實它是也是呈現穩定的一個狀態那整個一個產業結構的一個轉換那導致的一個失業率的一個產生那這是有一些是屬於也不可避免的"},{"start":345.211,"end":368.94,"text":"另外一個引誘就是說我們青年失業率青年失業率一直居高不下啦像現在我們平均算青年失業率已經來到11.75%而且傷腦筋的是平均待業99天平均的待業天數99天這是10年來的新高啦"},{"start":370.017,"end":390.821,"text":"所以很可怕的我們青年失業率這麼高11.75%是整體勞工失業率將近4倍之高耶將近4倍之高所以你看法呢我個人我是覺得說我們青年就業環境就業環境惡化"},{"start":393.669,"end":415.439,"text":"在你的看法有沒有什麼方式可以做調整做避免因為青年的一個失業率一向大部分都是比較高各國也都是一樣這樣的一個狀況那本身青年的失業率像一般就是一般就是我們的一般輔導措施其實像今年"},{"start":416.139,"end":416.339,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":447.2,"end":471.455,"text":"而且主計長很傷勞金的是我們有6成以上的青年勞工他是負債的那麼有平均他們的青年的存款只有13.2萬這也是創下4年以來的新低啦照說我們避職違貶的話"},{"start":473.464,"end":488.067,"text":"那存款應該為增喔結果現在不增反減反減那六成的勞工他們是負債的而且這個負債還導於你說是卡債的佔了31%那麼車貸的佔了20.2%信用貸款36.1%這一些啊都是高利率的"},{"start":499.881,"end":510.686,"text":"負債那這一點我覺得沒有給青年人39歲以下的青年朋友他們有任何新的希望所以在這個部分我希望"},{"start":511.96,"end":528.688,"text":"你們的數據呈現以後,你們具體提建言給我們行政團隊,可不可以讓他們去調節政策。那還有一點很可怕的就是說,我們竟然有三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資。"},{"start":532.21,"end":557.479,"text":"那這方面的傷腦筋的是中等薪資啦中等薪資的所得者他們十年來沒有得到調薪所以主計處我希望你把這些數字統整以後你要建議建議財政部建議經濟部因為現在我們正在審中小企業發展條例"},{"start":559.673,"end":578.89,"text":"那我個人跟很多委員我們有提出建言而且我們有提出修法的部分就是說鼓勵對中等薪資調薪者能夠得到更高的優惠的減稅額"},{"start":581.308,"end":583.589,"text":"我們會把相關的數據提給相關的單位來做一個政策的參考"},{"start":600.626,"end":600.846,"text":"王世堅"}]}},{"id":"153272","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153272","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331bd4b65a73e20e3475c2a8e696f21355cc09f7998a2d5a4c19da1692469ff7cb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:45:03 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112到113年總共他稅收調整也調整了將近4000多億進來那這個部分以我來講如果在預算籌編支出其實他報的概算你馬上就要編預算了對他大概都會超過3兆左右所以等於說他報的東西多你如果稅收沒有所以我要問你的事"},{"start":276.838,"end":298.54,"text":"因為你馬上就要編預算了所以這五台問題今年會不會出現稅收超徵今年我是說今年113年度對113年度因為以第一季來講應該是狀況也還不錯啦不錯是怎麼樣就是第一季稅收的一個情況應該是也不錯所以本身"},{"start":300.68,"end":309.767,"text":"第一季的稅收會超徵這我也不敢講因為這稅收方面的一個預估是財政部比較專門但是現在問題為什麼問你這個問題因為稅收超徵的關係所以呢我們就提前了提前的追加預算其實這有點不合原來的這個程序"},{"start":320.396,"end":331.64,"text":"因為這應該是要審計部核定之後你才能夠確定你可以去用這個稅收超徵拿來去追加預算所以呢你們現在才是等於說先用舉債的方式等到這個審計部核定之後呢你們再正式的去可以移用這個稅收超徵的部分"},{"start":341.164,"end":342.565,"text":"臺電因虧損累累而牽涉到廣大勞工權益"},{"start":358.616,"end":381.057,"text":"也就是那麼勞保基金你們要怎麼樣撥補呢要怎麼樣撥補因為在賴總統的就職演說裡面他說只要政府在勞保就不會倒那後來去問了勞動部長用什麼辦法呢你要拿出什麼辦法那麼看起來還是用撥補的方式好那我現在要請教你了那麼在"},{"start":383.96,"end":408.691,"text":"今年這個撥補的金額很龐大當然也是因為這個受益於稅收超徵的關係錢比較多所以可以撥補的比較多因為以往大概200億了不起再三四百億那我想請問一下明年勞保基金大概還要撥補多少這是很廣大的這個"},{"start":410.732,"end":418.122,"text":"就是所有勞工朋友非常關係的事情明年要補多少會不會不低於今年的數字"},{"start":420.441,"end":446.013,"text":"原則上因為勞保基金在106年度開始他的保險的收入就不足以支付保險的支出但是因為他有一個就是說他投資的一個利得能夠去cover所以他變成說他的數字沒有那麼的龐大就是等於說虧損的數字但是呢還是一樣等於說如果我們勞保的費率沒有調整的話將來"},{"start":447.413,"end":447.453,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":470.324,"end":483.533,"text":"所以114年度其實我們也有預估說看到底是要把它來再撥補勞保的一個部分有這樣的打算但是今後多少我們還是必須要討論一下"},{"start":485.874,"end":507.143,"text":"明年一定會撥補,但是是不是至少按照今年的一個標準?是,這個部分就必須要看財源的狀況來做討論因為我說今年是已經達到1200億,我沒有在講那個億後特別預算,那個是比較特別那1200億,所以在明年你們的估計也應該也起碼要到1200億嗎?"},{"start":509.404,"end":525.511,"text":"因為這金額我還沒有確定,我不敢說啦,因為等於說我必須還要去細算它的一個需求,然後再去確定,因為整個財源分配的部分我必須要看我財源獲得是多少,然後才能確定說我分配的一個金額是多少,是這樣子。"},{"start":527.808,"end":552.753,"text":"對這個當然因為你們在編預算之前一定有很多大家都互相拉扯啦對不對各個部會都會來跟你們要錢但是呢我覺得老保基金的這樣的一個年輕的長年的虧損這樣的一個虧損那麼當然是需要就是你不然的話就是在年紀的部分做相關的比如你的保費要提高啊等等之類的"},{"start":553.513,"end":571.053,"text":"但是顯然現在我想新政府應該也沒有意思要採取這樣的一個方式那在沒有採取這樣的方式之前呢那麼你的這個撥補的額度恐怕就是說因為我剛給你看過去這幾年你是越來越多嘛"},{"start":571.813,"end":594.794,"text":"越來越多然後你如果縮減的話呢都會使得這個勞保基金的整個的整個的財務狀況會更為拮据所以我才想說在我們主計處來說如果未來勞動部他所提供的我覺得我是勞動部我一定跟你講說啊你今年撥我1200億啊你明年你不能少啊"},{"start":595.194,"end":597.878,"text":"所以是不是可以承諾一個是就是至少在這個撥補的金額上不能夠少於今年的水準"},{"start":609.066,"end":609.266,"text":"王鴻薇委員"}]}},{"id":"153271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331753787f7590b963874cb636d3605ada8c09f7998a2d5a4c1e73c87840dd1d42a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:10:16 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差距多少現在多少我們現在是9.6%發電站發電的9.5%那明年今年會大概會到13%我們推估那後年就2025年大概會到15%超過15%目前還在做掌握當中所以就短缺個5%嘛那拿什麼補"},{"start":92.959,"end":119.568,"text":"這還是先順著理想狀態啦我們現在次長答應明年的再生能源是到15%嘛 對不對我們對推估到15那明年我們再來檢驗有沒有到15因為蔡英文說20嘛可見現在已經打了75折了嘛打了75折那再看看明年是不是要再繼續打折那請問那5%的部分怎麼補啊"},{"start":122.891,"end":135.573,"text":"我想我們的電力供應基本上是還有其他的燃煤或燃氣的一個基礎用火力嗎?不是燃煤就燃氣嗎?還有別的選項嗎?目前大概就是這樣"},{"start":137.256,"end":158.631,"text":"所以為什麼說今天齁賴清德總統說大家都需要供電穩定所以要推動二次能源轉型發展多元綠能智慧電網強化電力系統的韌性那他也提了一個比蔡英文總統更宏偉的目標他說2030年欸2030年現在只差6年對不對他的目標是什麼戰勝能源要達到多少你知道嗎市長我說賴清德總統的承諾"},{"start":167.268,"end":190.3,"text":"這個部分抱歉我不清楚我們總統的承諾還是要記住啊百分之三十請問次長做得到嗎你到明年我們蔡英文在提出這個在當選的時候他說要這個戰勝能源到20%可是在當時馬政府的結束的時候戰勝能源是多少不到5%將近5%啦"},{"start":195.325,"end":219.765,"text":"因為我是在馬政府工作過,將近5啦那結果從2016年到現在8年你也只到9%,9%嘛對不對,大概將近5啦所以換言之8年多5%現在剩下6年你要從10變30要多20%來,請問部長我們有什麼通天本理要做到這件事情"},{"start":221.207,"end":246.132,"text":"我想這個從技術端專業端的分析我跟委員報告我們這幾年綠能增加很多但是我們另外一個我知道增加很多那我們另外一個無碳的能源就是核能下來所以部長你也很有信心2030年可以到30%是不是是因為我們非常謝謝部長我肯定你的信心我不是部長不好意思次長我很肯定你的信心"},{"start":247.672,"end":261.052,"text":"希望不要你的信心跟蔡英文總統一樣打七五折到時候那接下來我就要問到底現在我們對於這個核能的政策態度是如何因為"},{"start":261.994,"end":284.794,"text":"郭志輝我們的部長之前他說對於核能議題他跟國發會主委昨天國發會主委也跟媒體聚會時已經說表態如果朝野對核能重啓有共識他個人並不排斥所以經濟部到底現在態度是什麼核能要不要重啓核二核三要不要延役態度是什麼"},{"start":285.836,"end":312.928,"text":"我們很明確有三個很重要的原則就是不缺電嘛不是 首要是核能安全要確保另外一個部分就是核廢料的處理要有妥適的一個解決方案那當然另外社會共識也是那核能安全現在有把握嗎這可能我們按照核能安全是按照相關的規範在進行中市長你是主管機關你都答不出答案這事實上還誰能幫你答答案啊台電誰主管的啊"},{"start":314.274,"end":343.406,"text":"所以現在就應該知道 核能安全這個條件做不做得到啊當然一定做到 因為我們的監管 很好所以第一個做到 第二個是什麼核廢料核廢料做不做得到目前目前有很複雜困難的問題第三個是什麼社會的共識社會的共識嘛 前兩項其實至少第一項操之在你嘛你認為做得到 對不對我們一定要做到一定要做到 非常好謝謝你啦 也還馬政府或還台電的公道啦"},{"start":344.554,"end":361.479,"text":"那麼多年的非核家園的認證的重點核心就是認為你做不到核能安全不是嗎?謝謝你還了公道所以我是說句實在話白走八年冤枉路了搞了半天回頭現在要重新來檢討核能但沒有關係王洋補牢石油未完"},{"start":362.239,"end":380.82,"text":"我支持今天我們戴金德總統跟政府正式能源問題重新正式重啓核能的問題包括核二核三延役的問題有困難如果正式下定次長是不是就去解決它如果啦如果啦我說過我們現在按照相關的規定在做處理那現在相關的規定"},{"start":381.761,"end":389.892,"text":"其實我跟你講如果賴清德總統下令你也不用什麼按照相當規定的你也得使命必達嘛 對不對所以我們就等賴清德總統一聲令下號令大軍轉彎啦 核電重啟啦我等著賴清德宣布 謝謝 以上"}]}},{"id":"153269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13317337da0edb68124674cb636d3605ada8c09f7998a2d5a4c147e74eb234ca6a285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:02:14 - 12:09:57","影片長度":"00:07:43","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":463,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:09:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:02:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時1分）謝謝主席。我先請陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：請陸委會梁副主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：副主委好。旅遊觀光業非常關心，因為馬上6月份我們又恢復禁團令，現在包含旅遊觀光業，他們一直在打聽6月份的禁團令有沒有可能取消，當然有些是很樂觀的，但也有些很悲觀的，因為現在很多觀光業都覺得已經活不下去。所以想請問一下副主委，就您所瞭解，6月份的禁團令還是繼續維持嗎？還是在進入倒數之後，尤其這個禮拜五，院長會到立法院做施政報告，有沒有可能6月份的禁團令會有任何的更動？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們正在規劃中，具體要由交通部來說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：會不會由院長星期五來的時候說明？因為正好是5月31日，因為馬上6月就到了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：有可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：有可能？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，有可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以如果由院長來說明，也代表是有可能做一些調整？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們正在規劃中，要由交通部來說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。時間暫停，請副主委先回座，我請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長，剛才美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾（Michael McCaul）也來這邊做參訪，因為時間非常短，我也不好意思去問他這件事情，但是我覺得很重要。因為在媒體採訪的時候，他特別提出了，他說美國對臺事務上有一些紅線是不能跨越的，不然的話，即便臺灣沒有挑釁的動作，但是也有可能發生戰爭。就我們局長所瞭解，他所謂紅線的定義會是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就我們對於美方長期對臺政策的理解，剛才提到的所謂不能跨越的紅線，主要重點還是在維持臺海和平的現狀，不能夠容許透過單邊脅迫式的方式來改變現狀，這大概是他們長期政策論述的重點。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可不可以具體講，那個所謂的紅線的意義是什麼？比如北京方面，他講到一個臺灣議題的紅線，我們大致會知道，因為他會有很多的說法，但是我覺得麥考爾的講法是直接告訴會有紅線，不能夠跨越，所以可不可以具體的說明，那個所謂的紅線指的是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛跟委員有提到，一個部分是臺灣關係法以及美國長期政策大概都很強調臺海和平穩定這個概念，那這個和平穩定的現狀不應該被武力或脅迫式的方式來挑戰。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以局長認為我們目前沒有跨越紅線，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們目前並沒有，所以這是為什麼美國的國務院系統還有包括拜登總統在西點軍校的演說，都有特別提到剛剛我跟委員說明的這些重點。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外要請教的就是，在賴總統就職演說後三天，北京無預警的做環台軍演，接下來他又說會在東海有接近三週的實彈射擊訓練，我想問的是，包括這個環台軍演還有現在宣布要進行的三週實彈射擊訓練，請問在這之前，美方有沒有通知過臺灣說陸方要準備軍演？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想在美國國務院第一次對外的說明有針對這個問題對外做解釋，我也跟委員說明一下，他有提到說臺灣跟美國針對中共的軍事動態都有進行相關的聯合監控，這是美方對外的說明，我們尊重這樣的說法。至於委員關心他在沿海開始劃設一些禁航區來進行所謂的火炮試射，跟委員報告的是，不止是東海，事實上從渤海地區，昨天算了一下，大概有六、七個禁航區的劃設，那這個比較屬於是季節性的火炮試射的演訓，對臺海的針對性比較沒有那麼高。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你覺得在東海的部分、渤海的部分並不是衝著臺灣來的，可能是衝著東北亞去的？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我還是要很具體的請局長回答，就是針對臺灣的環台軍演，我們在事先有沒有得到任何的訊息？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要分兩部分，一個部分是態勢上的判斷，在1月13號選後，我們就有做一個概括的分析，……"],["王委員鴻薇：我問的不是判斷，我們判斷歸判斷，我是說有沒有得到訊息？有或者沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛講了要分兩部分，麻煩委員給我幾秒鐘說明一下。一個部分是整體的判斷，就是從1月13日到520，我們認為會有一些軍事上比較中度的動作，……"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有超過我們原來的判斷？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前看起來還好。第二面個向要講的是……"],["王委員鴻薇：還好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個「還好」是相對性的，我也跟其他委員說明過，比起去年4月的聯合利劍跟2022年8月的環台軍演，這一次的規模並沒有比過去來得大。委員關注的是我們事前到底知不知道，因為只要他們的船艦一有什麼動作，我們都能夠掌握，所以大概從他動員的船艦數量以及航向的地點，我們可以判斷整體的態勢是什麼。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以在他宣布之前我們已經掌握消息了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，有，有。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們確定有掌握消息？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我再請問一下，賴總統上任之後有沒有召開過國安首長會議？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。我跟委員報告，就是在520之後，在總統召開的第一次國安首長會議，我們就已經有大概預判了演習的狀況跟時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，在他宣布聯合軍演就是環台軍演之後，我們有沒有召開國安會議？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我也都有跟總統報告相關的狀況。"],["王委員鴻薇：那總統的指示是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於整個的軍事動態，因為我們都有非常精準的預判以及全面資訊的掌握，有針對這個狀況跟總統做說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以總結來講就是這一次的環台軍演，局長的意思是說事前有掌握，然後呢……"],["蔡局長明彥：發生之後也立即有跟……"],["王委員鴻薇：然後低於我們原來預估的強度，可以這樣解釋嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：大概整個判斷的規模跟我們預先的評估是接近的。"],["王委員鴻薇：原來你們判斷的規模就有環台軍演的部分嗎？好，那最後一個問題，這樣的環台軍演未來會不會常態化？"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是我們特別在提醒要關注的，因為他們這一次環台軍演的演習代號是有序號的，稱為「聯合利劍-2024A」，就我們對共軍的理解，他有A就不能排除後續的……"],["王委員鴻薇：就會有B，就會有C。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以它有可能會變成是系列的軍演，會以不同的演習科目來進行。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們預期他會繼續，除了A之外還會有B，變成一個系列？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們不能排除，我們會來注意。"],["王委員鴻薇：那會不會常態化？環台軍演對臺灣來講並不是一個正常的事情，那我們會認為未來會是常態化嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是在書面報告中有跟委員提醒的，就是我們確實有在擔心也在關注這樣的趨勢。"],["王委員鴻薇：有這樣的擔心？"],["蔡局長明彥：是的，有這個concern。"],["王委員鴻薇：那麼在未來，這個其實對我們的不管是國安或者是我們國防一線所有的國軍弟兄都是非常非常大的壓力。好不好？謝謝！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，大家都很辛苦，謝謝委員關心。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請洪孟楷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.599093750000002,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.47159375,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.60096875,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.11971875,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.720968750000004,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.83846875,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.05721875,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.34784375000001,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.26284375,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.49409375,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.64971875,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.31096875,"end":101.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.71971875000001,"end":105.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.27596875,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.61284375000001,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.34659375000001,"end":113.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.90721875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.03784375000001,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.15596875000001,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.17284375000001,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.52284375000002,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.31409375,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.72909375,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.24159375000002,"end":200.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.75909375,"end":201.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.78846875000002,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.03534375,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.45659375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局長 剛才我們美國眾議院的外交事務委員會主席馬克歐剛才也來這邊來做參訪但是呢 因為我們時間非常短我也不好意思去問他這件事情但我覺得很重要就是因為在媒體採訪的時候他特別提出了他說美國對台事務上有一些紅線是不能跨越的"},{"start":146.616,"end":152.819,"text":"對,就我們對美方長期對台政策的理解他才提到了所謂不能跨越紅線主要重點還是在維持臺海的和平的現狀不能夠容許透過單邊脅迫式的方式來改變現狀這大概是他們長期政策論述的重點"},{"start":177.266,"end":200.027,"text":"你可不可以具體講,那個所謂的紅線的意義是什麼?比如說,像北京方面,他講到一個台灣議題的紅線,我們大致會知道,因為他會有很多的說法。但是呢,我覺得馬克奧他的講法是,直接告訴會有紅線不能夠跨越。所以可不可以有一些具體的,那個所謂的紅線是指的什麼?"},{"start":200.828,"end":203.47,"text":"所以局長認為我們目前沒有跨越紅線,對不對?"},{"start":221.026,"end":236.941,"text":"所以這是為什麼美國的國務院系統還有包括到拜登總統在西點軍校的演說都特別提到剛剛我跟委員說明的這些重點另外請教一下就是在賴總統就職演說後三天北京是無預警的做還台的軍演"},{"start":237.881,"end":260.856,"text":"接下來他又說在東海會接近三週的實彈射擊的訓練我想請問一下包括環台軍演還有現在的宣布要三週實彈射擊的訓練請問一下在這之前美方有沒有通知過台灣說陸方要準備進演"},{"start":262.42,"end":290.269,"text":"對 我想在美國國務院的第一次對外的說明他有針對這個問題對外做解釋我也跟委員說明一下他有提到說臺灣跟美國針對中共的軍事的動態都有進行相關的聯合的監控的動作這是美方對外說明那我們尊重這樣的說法那至於委員在關心的是他沿海開始劃設一些禁航區來進行所謂的火炮的試射各位報告的是不只是東海事實上從渤海地區"},{"start":291.809,"end":301.704,"text":"昨天算了一下大概有六七個進航區的化射那這個比較屬於是季節性的一個火炮試射的演訓對台海的針對性比較沒有那麼高"},{"start":302.273,"end":322.376,"text":"所以你覺得在這個東海的部分、渤海的部分並不是衝著台灣來的,可能是衝著東北亞而去的。那我還是要很具體的邀請那個局長能夠回答,也就是呢在那麼我們針對台灣的環台軍演,我們在事先有沒有得到任何的訊息?"},{"start":323.237,"end":336.823,"text":"好,這分兩部分,一個部分是態勢上的判斷,在1月13號選後,我們大概就有做一個概括的分析。但是我不是判斷,我是說有沒有得到訊息,有或者沒有。我們判斷歸判斷。對對對,我剛剛講了兩部分,一個部分是整體的判斷,那麻煩我幾秒鐘說明一下。時間快到了。對,就1月13到5月20我們認為會有一些軍事上比較中度的動作。"},{"start":347.608,"end":376.115,"text":"那有沒有超過呢?有沒有超過我們原來的判斷?目前看起來還好,好,好,第二面現在要講的是還好喔!這所謂是相對性的,因為我也跟其他委員說明過,比起去年4月的聯合立建跟2022年的8月的環台軍演,這一次的規模並沒有比過去來得大。那委員關注的是我們事前到底知不知道?因為只要他們的船艦一有什麼動作,我們都能夠掌握,所以大概從他動員的船艦的數量以及航向的地點,我們可以判斷"},{"start":376.715,"end":403.87,"text":"在他宣布之前我們已經掌握消息了嗎?有有有有有有我們確定有掌握消息那我再請問一下賴總統上任之後有沒有召開過國安會議?有我剛才也跟有國安首長會議你剛剛講有有有好那我請問一下我跟委員報告一下就是在520之後在第一次的總統召開的國安首長會議我們就已經有大概預判了演習的狀況跟時間好那我請問一下在他宣布這個"},{"start":405.111,"end":405.532,"text":"總統的指示是什麼?"},{"start":416.6,"end":444.151,"text":"對於整個的軍事動態因為我們都有非常精準的預判那以及全面資訊的掌握那有針對這個說法﹖所以總結來講就是這一次的這個環台軍演就是局長的意思說事前有掌握有然後呢發生之後也立即有然後低於我們原來預估的強度是這樣﹖可以這樣解釋嗎沒有大概整個判斷的規模跟我們預先的評估是接近的對"},{"start":445.322,"end":449.305,"text":"最後一個問題,這樣環台軍演未來會不會常態化?這也是我們特別提醒要關注的,因為這次環台軍演的演習代號是有序號的,稱為聯合力艦2024A"},{"start":463.695,"end":480.766,"text":"那就我們對共軍的理解,它有A你不能排除有後續的B或C﹗就會有B,就會有C﹗對,所以它有可能會變成是不同的系列的軍演會有不同的演習科目的進行﹗所以我們預期它會有繼續,繼續除了A之後還會有B的自編系列﹗對,我們不能排除,我們來注意﹗那會不會常態化?環台軍演對台灣來講並不是一個正常的事情﹗是那我們會認為未來會是常態化嗎?"},{"start":487.27,"end":487.37,"text":"謝謝委員關心,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331be7ccd638bd635d0243e47098157e4f6c09f7998a2d5a4c1085848ee96b9858b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:03:15 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況然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地全數也不屬於平地農路所以呢我們是位於重劃區外"},{"start":233.684,"end":243.396,"text":"所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的農路可以改善他的經費我們只能靠什麼水保署每4年一起"},{"start":244.801,"end":271.798,"text":"辛苦地向行政院爭取來的所謂的重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫我們來修補部落的農路我們過去有很多的農業政治的補助根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值今天呢我用很短的時間來提出一個案例跟部長你來交流我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉他是全台灣最重要的高利貸的產區我們如果以這個"},{"start":273.119,"end":291.132,"text":"蔬菜專區為例一公里的農路它預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田而每公頃的高麗菜它的年產值我們如果以150萬元做計算的話所以每座一公里的農路可能是需要500萬的經費這500萬的經費它可以使用多久20年啊"},{"start":295.535,"end":313.675,"text":"在20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少20年然後1500萬我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億更簡單的來講就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好他可以維持部落20年總產值是3億的農業生產"},{"start":315.777,"end":336.069,"text":"所以今天我提了這幾個案例因為時間非常的短那麼過去我也跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題我期待在部長的帶領之下我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策可以嗎?部長你有沒有什麼話要說?"},{"start":337.69,"end":364.884,"text":"我想謝謝委員的這些提問那以我的態度來講我在處理原鄉的原民部落的這些農業其實要去考慮到除了農業問題以外我更要去重視就是說其實原民部落的這些原民本身他守護的這些山林的一個貢獻度我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值所以我所有的這些政策的誘因的設計"},{"start":366.005,"end":390.084,"text":"他絕對不能說只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落所以你包括你剛才講的因為在山坡地在坡地在比較高山的地區的農牧用地的部分他的這些包括他的灌溉系統他的水路系統他都應該被特別的去重視特別說雖然說您剛才講的7.5萬公頃我的資料"},{"start":392.566,"end":410.137,"text":"還有波地的部分大概有16萬公頃所以他也是一個重要的農業生產區所以後續我想我會針對原民部落的政策會有個特殊的特殊的一個一個輔導措施去達到一些包括您所期待還有包括所有原住民所期待的包括他的灌溉系統"},{"start":411.238,"end":426.578,"text":"關區外的灌溉系統、農路部分、設施補助的項目跟樣態我想這個部分我們都會來處理而是用原民部落對於森林地區守護的貢獻度從這個角度出發去設計不一樣的"},{"start":429.349,"end":443.982,"text":"非常好我想我們原住民的族人終於期待等到了一位好的部長接地氣的部長所以這個部分我會持續的來追蹤部長也希望你在公務房忙的時候也記得原住民的這一塊農業部分好不好好謝謝您謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331c7ee422ddbd13a91d0e137800dc086eac09f7998a2d5a4c15d099b2f0119ced05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:56:41 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Level 3，我想剩下最後一哩路，因為國外的同行審查，會裡面會來做這一方面的把關，如果有必要再做補強，我們也會要求台電來做這方面的補強。以上。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。不好意思，你們先前有跟台電溝通過這個部分的補強嗎？台電可以回應一下嗎？就是核安會這邊跟你們處理了相關的補強，目前你們的業務在補強這個區塊做得怎麼樣？"],["許副總經理永輝：初步的補強我們大概做了。"],["林委員倩綺：像是什麼？"],["許副總經理永輝：關於相關的補強工作，跟委員報告，其實這個部分總共有三個階段，第一個階段大概就是對所有的地質做調查，包括所有核電廠附近的地質調查，那部分我們大概就花了四到五年的時間；還有一個美國專家跟國內專家組成一個平臺，大家互相去訂出一個所謂的地震力……"],["林委員倩綺：地震地？"],["許副總經理永輝：就是地震的強度。第二階段大概就是核安會要求我們做的，也就是主委剛才講的初步的耐震補強，這部分的耐震補強，我們做完了，也送給它了。第三階段就是在算風險度的評估，也就是算機率──爐心熔毀的機率，目前這部分的報告已經出來，還在做所謂的國際同行審查；目前的進度大概是這樣。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，前兩項應該都做好了，相關的報告可以給本席的辦公室一份嗎？就是第一個地質調查的部分……"],["許副總經理永輝：最後完整的報告應該還要到核安會……"],["林委員倩綺：你這是三個部分，還是一個部分有三個階段？"],["許副總經理永輝：總共三個階段。"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分，請問什麼時候會做好？"],["許副總經理永輝：最後同行審查的那一個階段，核三大概是到年底，核二的部分大概到明年年初第一季可以完成。"],["林委員倩綺：可不可以請你們針對這個部分給本席一個……"],["許副總經理永輝：我們會寫一份報告……"],["林委員倩綺：對，專案報告，相關的資料也給本席。另外要麻煩核安會主委就今天這三項，把你們目前處理的相關進度，還有您說國外比如美國目前做到一半或是做到多少百分比的進度，臺灣目前做到多少，今天整個質詢都沒有聽到全世界目前怎麼做……"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們再把相關的資料送到委員辦公室。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。麻煩台電就你們就相關部分給我一個專案報告好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":9.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.192218750000002,"end":23.672843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.89596875,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.32596875,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.55346875,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.71784375,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.48534375,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.932218750000004,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.33971875,"end":116.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.93659375000001,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.48909375000001,"end":154.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.96034375000002,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.85096875000002,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.70659375000002,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.02284375000002,"end":189.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.17846875,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.96721875,"end":209.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.29784375000003,"end":220.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.02596875,"end":221.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.20284375000003,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.03471875000002,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.43971875000003,"end":246.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.16534375,"end":252.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.66659375,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.15971875,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.51659375,"end":272.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.96721875000003,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.83096875,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.04409375,"end":300.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.98034375000003,"end":298.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.69721875000005,"end":303.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.79409375,"end":301.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.49846875000003,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.30409375,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.26971875000004,"end":308.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.84346875,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.32846875,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.13846875,"end":311.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.61909375000005,"end":314.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.96409375,"end":330.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.46034375000005,"end":331.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.49409375000005,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.67096875000004,"end":335.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.74221875,"end":337.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.48034375000003,"end":337.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.73346875000004,"end":337.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.74596875000003,"end":348.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.09471875,"end":354.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.14909375,"end":351.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.13596875,"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Level 3那我想剩下最後一里路啦因為這個國外的同行審查那麼我們會裡面會來做這一方面的把關那麼如果有必要再做補強那麼我們也會要求台電來做這一方面的補強以上"},{"start":441.838,"end":452.645,"text":"好的謝謝那不好意思那你們那個先前有溝通過跟台電齁有溝通過這個部分的補強嗎?台電可以回應一下嗎?就是原能會這邊跟你們處理了這相關的補強那你們目前的這個業務在補強的這個區塊是做的怎麼樣?"},{"start":459.491,"end":482.691,"text":"大概初步的補強我們大概做了相關的補強工作跟委員報告其實他這個總共有三個階段第一個階段大概就是把所有的地質做調查包括所有的核電廠附近的地質做調查那一部分我們大概就花了4年到5年還有一個美國專家跟國內專家組成一個平台大家互相去定出一個所謂的地震力"},{"start":485.172,"end":511.201,"text":"第二階段大概就是核安會要求我們做初步的耐震補強那這個耐震補強我們大概做完了也送給他了第三階段就在算什麼算風險度的這個評估也算機率爐心熔毀的這個機率那目前這部分我們報告已經出來可是還在做所謂的國際的統航審查大概目前的進度大概是這樣"},{"start":511.741,"end":528.814,"text":"好的,那應該前兩項都做好了嘛那可以把相關報告給本席一份嗎?給本席的辦公室?第一個部分嘛,地質調查最後的完整的報告應該還要送過你這三個部分還是一個部分有三個階段?總共有三個階段那這個部分請問什麼時候會做好?"},{"start":533.057,"end":557.328,"text":"最後那個階段大概同樣審查核三我們大概到年底那核二的部分大概會到大概明年的年初那可不可以請你們針對這個部分來給本席一個專案報告那相關的資料也給本席那那個核安會不好意思那個今天這三項就麻煩主委是不是把你們目前在處理的相關進度"},{"start":558.308,"end":578.482,"text":"還有包括您說那個國外比如美國目前做到一半或者是做到多少%進度台灣目前做到多少那全世界我今天整個質詢沒有聽到全世界目前怎麼做我再把相關的資料送給委員辦公室所以那個台電就麻煩你這個部分給我相關的給我一個專案報告好嗎謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13314f7495923e16194c243e47098157e4f6c09f7998a2d5a4c16dbb4e661cf025135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:56:10 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12:01:29","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":651,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:01:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:50:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請國安局局長，謝謝。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。我針對今天的題目，就是就職這一個方面來討論一下，根據我們在520還沒到之前，我們還是很關注中國的灰色地帶作戰，粗略來講，還是都是分那幾類嘛！一個軍事的，然後政治的，然後還有information，就是跟資訊有關的，還有經濟。在之前的這些分析當中，這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係，很少說四管齊下，那這一次我們在觀察的時候，就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方。當然第一個就是在資訊的世界裡面，對我們來講，一開始除了一般的假消息之外，我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的攻擊，因為今天國土辦應該不在，我也記得今天沒有國土辦，但是看起來他對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊，看起來還是在，看起來還有一些未爆彈，所以一開始想先問一下局長，我們先就資訊這一塊來講，目前掌握的狀況是如何？能夠講的。"],["蔡局長明彥：資訊的部分有兩部分，一個部分是爭議訊息的散播，那在演習的這兩天，我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號，有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息。我剛剛在會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過，操作重點放在疑美、疑軍跟疑賴，這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點，相關爭議訊息的問題，我們都有通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理。第二部分是在資安的攻擊方面，攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點，然後520之後有降低，到了軍演的523又稍微高一點，但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害成果，但是數字上，我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這個也跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的，尤其是資安這一方面。剛剛有講過，他有兩波嘛！，一波當然是在520之後，然後後來減少，之後又再增加。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛王定宇委員其實也有提到的，後面他還沒有問完，就是跟人民日報的所作所為可能有點關係，就是說他在整體輿論方面，520當然對他們來講是重要的一個輿論操作時機，但很明顯的，過了幾天之後，這個人民日報看起來跟對臺鷹派可能是比較類似一點，也就是說他發動了新的攻擊，那我覺得這一件事情，對我們在做國安的研判來講，看起來是一個警訊啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["沈委員伯洋：那我先往下看一下其他的方面，當然在這邊有一個就是跟大量的藝人表態是有關係的，雖然它算是本來的統戰網絡，那這個今天應該很多人都已經問過，這個我就不多說，它有大量的散播。但是除了所謂的用臺獨工作者這樣的方式去形成一個對比，一方面有人是支持統一，然後去抨擊臺獨工作者，去貼上一個標籤。那我現在比較擔心的事情就是在往下這一邊，因為藝人就我們以前的研究來講，他一直以來可能會慢慢一步一步的，先跟你講說你是不支持臺獨、你反對臺獨，一直到你不反對統一，到支持統一，他會有一步一步的往下嘛！但因為藝人是對外的，所以對他們來講是一個統戰的樣板，但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已，還包含背後的經紀公司等等之類的，還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演，所以就是在第二個步驟，目前來講他們統戰給予的利益，對外的這個部分我們是看得見的，那對於娛樂產業幕後的這些工作者的壓迫形式，看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多，不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，先跟委員說明一下，因為以國安單位的立場來講，我們不適合去評論個別的藝人，因為我們的評論會造成他遭受到……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我們看整體娛樂產業。"],["蔡局長明彥：整體的娛樂產業受到的壓迫形式大概有幾種，一種是會請藝人或經紀公司來簽署相關的認同書，這包括要認同九二共識、一個中國，或是在展演的過程當中，不能夠批評中國國內的政治體制或相關的事件，這是第一個部分。第二個部分，會跟經紀公司可能有威脅查稅相關的一個動作，讓經紀公司要配合到相關中共政府部門的一些政治上的宣傳操作。第三個部分，也會針對這些演唱會的活動，以公安或安全的理由來管控入場的人數，這個部分也會讓策辦活動相關的公司或單位承受到一些壓力。所以就我們所掌握到的公情或密情相關可以對外說明的情資，大概壓迫的型態有這幾類。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛有提到，第一個是跟演藝活動有關，再來跟查稅有關，跟簽認同書有關。簽認同書這個部分，我們在軍方其實也很常看到，不只認同書，還包含投降書。所以這邊再拉回來，他對臺這些其他的統戰工作，譬如假設今天是學校，像之前學校有些會有中生的交換，雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情，他們跟這些中國的學校在簽的時候，可能也會簽署在交換的同時，中國的學生在我們這邊，我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功、不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的。但現在很大的一個問題是，只要有簽這些東西，其實大部分是不對外公開的，我們一般人無法得知，而演藝工作者在這個方面，他的經紀公司簽這個，我們也不知道，所以我在第三個點想要問的事情是，這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為，對國人來講，或者對心戰來講，我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的，他可能是不得已的，或是哪些人是自願跪上去的，這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的。雖然法律並沒有強制的規定，但目前來講，中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的，所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅、哪些人不是被威脅，這種細緻的差別，可能需要讓國人知道。但不知道以國安單位的立場來講，有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議？雖然這是立法委員的責任，但是行政單位一直以來都有法案草擬的權利。我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易地被揭露，但是又不會侵害到人權，也不會侵害到很多人念茲在茲所謂的兩岸交流？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這也是一開始我在回答委員這個問題，第一時間就提醒的，就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論，因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓。就我們來講，我們比較能夠來對外說明的，還是在於他施壓的樣態。也感謝委員，我一開始也謝謝委員透過這樣的提問，讓我們來說明一下，可能我們的演藝人員，不只演藝人員，可能包括其他藝文工作者，或是甚至企業界到對岸去，你要經商、求學可能都面臨到來自於中國政府施壓的一個手法，讓國內的社會能夠瞭解這樣的狀況，在進行兩岸交流的時候，也能夠來示警，讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做心戰的防護也有很高的關係，很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多，不過這個部分，之後我會再來問國防部。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：我拉回來，我們剛剛講就四個層面，軍事層面、政治層面、資訊層面、經濟層面，政治層面就包含外交。經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的，這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是滿類似的，他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉，所以在經濟要做一些制裁等等之類的，這個是弱化的。所以他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊，比如他可能在臺灣想要推自經區，又或者最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的，藉由一些比較小恩小惠的經濟，或者跟我們臺灣的地方政府簽訂相關的協定，把一個經濟的區域範圍畫出來，有可能是相較於以往，他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多。他這個力道變少之後，其實照理說，在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的，相較於外交，因為外交，他需要花很多成本，那麼資訊世界，如果他是需要比較低成本的，照理說，資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多。因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析，第一件事情，我想問的是，剛剛在問的問題其實也跟這個有關，就是這一次，不管是假消息的散播等等之類的，相較於4年前那一次520比起來，國安單位這邊覺得是比較多，還是持平，還是反而是變少？"],["蔡局長明彥：就這一次520就職的期間，我剛剛也跟委員所提到了，有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號，或是一次性的帳號，有非常頻密的在散布這些爭議訊息。一開始在進入會場，我也跟媒體朋友說到，這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向，一個部分是疑美，質疑美國要協防臺灣的能力；一個部分是疑軍，對於我們國軍能不能自我防衛的能力來產生一些爭議訊息的散播；第三個就是疑賴，對於新任的總統管理兩岸的能力提出一些質疑。這個部分大概有看到中共透過內容農場的方式來散布這樣的爭訊，再由不同的社群媒體平臺或假帳號、問題帳號來進行散播。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們這次看到的，其實外交做得滿多的，軍事當然不用講，一直以來都是這個樣子，軍事我可能放在後面。所以我現在會認為在資訊世界本身的一個操作，看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方，我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的，他比較集中，可能跟俄羅斯比較像，就是有點精準打擊。這個不知道，因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有重組，重組之後到底誰負責什麼？駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息？還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊？還是他們完全是分開的團隊？現在是非常不明朗的。","所以我在這邊還是建議，可能對於他們的信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊，尤其是這兩個，到底現在誰在主導、主導的節奏是什麼，因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同，這個可能是之後要掌握的，也希望在下一次質詢的時候，我們可以針對這一點再往下討論，也讓國人知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.01346875,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.641593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能是不得已的哪些人是自願跪上去的"},{"start":370.903,"end":389.977,"text":"這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的但我們的雖然法律並沒有強制的規定但目前來講中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅哪些人不是被威脅這種細緻的差別呢可能需要讓國人知道但不知道在以國安單位的立場來講"},{"start":391.098,"end":407.957,"text":"有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議,雖然這是立法委員的責任,但是行政單位一直以來都有這個法案的一個草擬的權利,就是說我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易的被揭露,但是又不會侵害到人權,也不會侵害到這個很多人念茲在茲所謂的兩岸交流?"},{"start":408.536,"end":428.242,"text":"對這也是一開始我在回答委員這個問題第一時間就在提醒的就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓就我們來講我們比較能夠來多外說明的還是在於他的一個施壓的一個樣態那也感謝委員我一開始在謝謝委員"},{"start":429.082,"end":454.374,"text":"透過這樣的一個提問讓我們來說明一下那可能我們的演藝人員不只演藝人員可能包括了其他藝文工作者或是甚至的企業界到對岸去你要經商求學可能都面臨到這樣的施壓的一個來自於中國政府的一個施壓的一個手法那讓國內的社會能夠了解這樣的狀況那在進行兩岸交流的時候也能夠來示警讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法"},{"start":455.494,"end":481.896,"text":"謝謝 因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做這個新戰的防護有很高的關係那很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多不過這個之後我會再來問國防部那我拉回來就是說我們剛剛講就四個層面軍事層面、政治層面政治層面就包含外交、資訊層面、經濟層面那經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的"},{"start":482.656,"end":497.651,"text":"這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是蠻類似的他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉所以在經濟要做一些制裁等等之類的這個是弱化的所以變成來講他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊譬如說他可能在台灣想要推資金區"},{"start":498.932,"end":513.383,"text":"或者說最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的藉由一些比較小恩小惠的一些經濟或者跟我們台灣的地方政府去簽訂相關的協定把一個經濟的區域範圍劃出來有可能是相較於以往他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多"},{"start":514.704,"end":542.371,"text":"他這個力道變少之後其實照理說在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的相較於外交他需要發很多成本那他資訊世界如果他是需要比較低成本的照理說資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多那因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析那第一件事情我想問就是剛剛在問的問題其實也是跟這個有關就是這一次不管是假消息的散播等等之類的相較於四年前那一次520比起來"},{"start":544.051,"end":569.421,"text":"國安單位這邊是覺得是比較多還是持平還是反而是變少就這一次的520就職的期間我剛剛也跟委員所提到了那有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號或是一次性的帳號有非常頻密的在散佈這些正義訊息那一開始在進入會場也跟媒體朋友說到這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向一個部分是以美"},{"start":569.821,"end":571.382,"text":"有不同的社群媒體的平台或假帳號、問題帳號來進行散布。"},{"start":594.672,"end":611.657,"text":"因為我們這次看到呢其實外交做得蠻多的那軍事當然不用講就是一直以來都是這個樣子所以我軍事可能放在後面所以呢我一直我現在會認為說在資訊世界本身的一個操作看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的"},{"start":612.137,"end":630.536,"text":"他比較集中可能跟俄羅斯比較像就是有點這個精準打擊那這個不知道因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有產生重組重組之後呢到底誰負責什麼駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊還是說呢他們完全是分開的團隊現在是非常不明朗的"},{"start":630.916,"end":649.486,"text":"所以我在這邊還是建議就是說呢可能對於他們這個信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊尤其是這兩個到底現在誰在主導然後他主導的節奏是什麼因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同那這個可能是之後要掌握的那也希望在下一次質詢的時候呢我們可以針對這一點再往下然後也讓國人知道"}]}},{"id":"153264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133154a005ba6e7cdbc1d0e137800dc086eac09f7998a2d5a4c12d160d8729ee17f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:49:53 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核能是低碳能源但是它不是綠能因為它不是renewable那歐盟不是認定說它是綠能嗎那主委你怎麼可以認定你是用哪裡的資訊說它是低碳的不是綠能這個部分應該是正確的啦因為我們如何正確很多事情不能你說正確就正確"},{"start":73.174,"end":74.617,"text":"再生能源才是綠能的一部分好"},{"start":84.025,"end":106.923,"text":"我相信主委解釋本席現在是不太能接受啦因為歐洲都認為核能是綠能所以未來將我們台灣要這個節能減碳以及排放碳稅這些東西都會相關的影響所以當然我希望說主委要為自己的話語來負責那如果核能不是綠能那請問主委核四要不要重啟"},{"start":110.72,"end":116.294,"text":"這個能源政策我想是應該請經濟部來回答我們是安全管制機關是不是請經濟部來協助來幫忙一下"},{"start":122.281,"end":150.586,"text":"好,謝謝經濟部,我們緊密...我們委員剛剛垂詢核試的問題,核試是公投沒有通過,所以核試是現在就是啟動,就是...好,謝謝,那感謝經濟部的回答,那剛剛這個主委說不是綠能,那另外一個說公投沒有過,所以還沒辦法重啟,那我請教一下現在這個在經濟部上面我們的核試它整個營造的費用是多少錢?"},{"start":152.253,"end":174.202,"text":"建設到現在的費用是多少錢?2838億2838億如果核委會的主委認為不是綠能另外的我們的經濟部認為他沒辦法重啟那以台電的角度以財快的角度來講這2800多億是不是通通應該打給費用?"},{"start":176.075,"end":176.095,"text":"市長"},{"start":200.156,"end":205.224,"text":"因為20212011公投沒有通過所以他不重啟那如果不重啟是不是就該打成非?你認為他是資產嗎?"},{"start":207.366,"end":226.931,"text":"所以經濟部跟台電公司必須提出一個轉型的計畫根據這個轉型計畫去替代原先的所謂的核四的工程計畫以後那麼會整個盤點哪些資產是可以再回收再使用的比如說像建物或者是其他的設備但請問現在統計出來了嗎就2800億而言經濟部請問經濟部統計出來哪些可以回收的錢是多少錢"},{"start":233.573,"end":249.232,"text":"目前來講必須要等到那個轉型計畫到時候我們要抱怨 同意以後才會報完轉型計畫已經申請多久了請問一下目前來講還沒有向院申請已經有計畫了嗎我們只是一個初步初步的規劃研究多久了很初步"},{"start":250.534,"end":269.008,"text":"大概從202121應該是差不多一年的時間左右所以我覺得今天開這個會我非常不能接受就是三個部門有點互相推後鼻球那我來請教一下還有一個非常重的重點請問核四的燃料棒現在在哪裡現在在美國請問核四送到美國去的"},{"start":270.324,"end":298.772,"text":"應該是2022的3月2022的3月現在已經2024年的5月了所以我本席要提出來的是說當時是誰下這個命令把核四的燃料棒運送出去從燃料棒運送出去了以後發現賣不掉改成燃料碗現在每年還要負擔非常高額的保存費請問台電這邊有沒有預計什麼時候賣到底還要請問一下這個燃料棒當時買多少錢我們每年要交給美國管理費是多少錢"},{"start":301.256,"end":324.575,"text":"這個應該不是說誰決策因為我們是依據當時立法院2018年1月的決議必須當時必須要把這個燃料運到國外另外一個廠家有進行一個評估就是說即使即使即使核是重啟他現在的燃料你也沒辦法再使用因為那一塊是屬於一個舊型的燃料所以整個燃料的使用必須要再重新再評估才有可能"},{"start":325.25,"end":351.251,"text":"好 所以這就是本席非常不能接受的從2021年我們核是就是送出去說要賣給國外的這個燃料棒後來賣不出去改成燃料丸中間不管是印製費用當時購買的錢而且當時我記得當時政府單位是說可以賣很高的價錢所以才同意把它送出去所以當時這一塊我您沒有提到可是當時是認為可以賣高價才可以賣出去結果想不到滯銷"},{"start":352.572,"end":368.977,"text":"指向以後把它換成燃料棒換成燃料碗然後現在還是賣不出去每年還要保管費還要非常大的金額所以我覺得這是非常不能接受所以我認為今天本席來這邊我認為三個這個我們政府單位都應該要好好來"},{"start":370.277,"end":372.078,"text":"拜託我們一起來關心不要浪費我們的民間納稅錢以上 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資訊公開法這個合約需要廠商的同意才能夠公開我上次已經跟部長表達過對這種法規的解釋我是感覺到匪夷所思啦我為什麼感覺到匪夷所思政府資訊公開法是這樣解釋的嗎"},{"start":107.847,"end":125.398,"text":"那如果政府資訊公開法是按照農業部這樣解釋的話那問題大條我為什麼說問題大條交通部、文化部、經濟部我只要去調合約通通都要交出來啊為什麼要交出來事情很簡單啊這是我們納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":129.076,"end":129.096,"text":"請部長"},{"start":156.124,"end":182.372,"text":"我想跟委員先說明一下就是當時我所得到的一個訊息就是說我們政府單位的資料的提供與否可能有幾個要件包括您剛才講的政府資訊公開法那當初我們的認定是也需要兩照雙方也不是農業部訂的後來我也真正的開了專案會議去檢討這樣的一個規定那我覺得就是說當它屬於公益的時候你什麼時候開專案會議"},{"start":184.273,"end":212.61,"text":"我應該是在委員那時候質詢的時候那麼專案會議的會議記錄可不可以廢後給我我們在討論的時候並不是一個非常正式的一個會議就是我找了相關的單位來看案件不行啊你決定這麼重大的事項誰表達了這樣的法律見解誰要負責任啊因為關係重大欸如果你們農業部上次的法律見解是正確的那我就跟部長報告啊事情大條啦交通部、文化部、經濟部全部都違法"},{"start":213.49,"end":233.044,"text":"因為農業部是唯一一個部會用政府資訊公開法當作理由拒絕提供合約的知識體大農業部到底哪一位官員做這樣的法律主張這個有政治責任的問題嗎?不過我想在法條的這樣的解釋基本上"},{"start":234.09,"end":239.655,"text":"所以現在我們的政府是各個部會一人一把號各吹各的調同一部法律不同的部會有不同的解釋情況是這樣嗎?"},{"start":257.33,"end":274.56,"text":"我想應該不會是這樣子但是...那如果不是這樣的話是怎麼樣?是你們解釋錯還是他們違法?我想以農業部來講我最後的決定就是他有他的但書但書如果是屬於公益的時候可以把它公開所以我就用了這個公益的方式可以把它公開那合約什麼時候要交出來?"},{"start":278.863,"end":287.43,"text":"我們已經合約已經那時候好像張旗愷委員有要求的時候我們已經給了所以合約的部分問的人是我啊你給張旗愷委員那我呢"},{"start":290.151,"end":317.519,"text":"我很抱歉我非常抱歉這件事情我想我會立即提供因為好我們繼續往下看就不要拖時間了啦我為什麼要吹這件事2023年當時超市這家公司啊被社會大眾質疑50萬的資本額的公司啊設在一個民宅結果接到7億元啊超級的大單啊"},{"start":318.78,"end":343.59,"text":"社會華蘭阿哇超市是什麼樣的公司阿非常神秘阿設在一個民宅內2022年9月設立2023年就接到了這麼大的單子那個時候農業部信誓旦旦的說齁超市不是因為要開始專案進口才成立他2022年9月就成立了前面還有時機阿"},{"start":345.168,"end":365.295,"text":"我從去年就開始一路追查他有的時機是什麼我為什麼會開始追2022年從日本專案進口因為我從去年就開始懷疑2022年從日本進口雞蛋的就是超市超市就是為了日本進口雞蛋才成立的但我手上沒有拿到證據以前我不會隨便亂說話結果來吧2022年9月成立2022年11月"},{"start":373.191,"end":394.905,"text":"曾經從日本進口雞蛋到台灣這個是你們農業部去年公開的資訊在左手邊嘛但左手邊沒有告訴他們2022年11月進口雞蛋是哪裡的單你們上面文過是非寫說曾經幫日本的大企業在處理雞蛋的事情我們再往下追結果後來發現2022年中央續產會進口了3000萬顆雞蛋"},{"start":401.469,"end":428.473,"text":"裡面有2500萬顆是交給誰做的?正式交給超市做的啊!超市不就是為了接你們農業部中央續產會的大單而成立的嗎?我有沒有說錯?請教部長我跟委員說齁一家公司的資本額跟他有沒有能力買單我想這是兩件事情對!但我現在質疑的是什麼?農業部去年怎麼告訴台灣社會大眾的?我們再來看一下"},{"start":429.83,"end":431.711,"text":"我講我們並沒有欺騙大眾齁所以只是沒有告訴大家"},{"start":460.282,"end":469.376,"text":"他不是為了巴西進口啊事實上在去年的時候為了中央續產會從日本進口的大單3000萬顆、2500萬顆是給超市做的"},{"start":473.427,"end":500.57,"text":"我有說錯嗎?委員我可不可以回答?請請請我想超私我想雞蛋本身他不是一個現貨市場他必須要熟悉整個雞蛋的產業那超私如果說你去問臺灣的所有的蛋農沒有一個人不認識他所以表示說他過往其實在雞蛋本身的這個進口是有他的一個能力負責人秦宇喬女士在2022年9月接你們接你們"},{"start":501.471,"end":514.146,"text":"中央續產會的大單以前上一次在處理雞蛋買賣的事宜是什麼時候我所瞭解在你現在的說法是他很有名關係很好可以弄得到蛋嘛"},{"start":515.154,"end":533.68,"text":"現在這個是農業部的說法那我請教的是在2022年9月他成立了超市公司接中央續產會的單以前他前一次在處理雞蛋是什麼時候的事情我們不夠不了解因為最主要就是欸那就很奇怪囉你們如果不了解的話"},{"start":534.58,"end":550.988,"text":"你們怎麼會掌握說這家公司很有辦法有辦法幫中央續產會去處理2500萬顆日本雞蛋進口不會有問題?廠商是怎麼選擇?我可不可以回答?可以這樣子齁就是112年那是專門進口所以農業部有直接的參與112年是2023年嘛"},{"start":553.069,"end":575.983,"text":"好那111年就是112之前我們對續產會因為續產會負有整個的一個產銷調度的所以我們是年度給予補助計畫我們不會去過問他整個的一個採購的一個過程所以我們在中央續產會是對我們是他提計畫來是公社財團法人還是私的財團法人他是"},{"start":577.313,"end":595.059,"text":"公設的財團法人主管機關不管是怎麼樣是我們是主管機關沒有錯可是我們是根據年度的需求給他相關的計畫部長你可能要再回去看一下公設的財團法人跟主管機關彼此之間的關係"},{"start":595.979,"end":620.045,"text":"我想我了解但是我們不會去至少對我來講還有對我們的畜牧師來講不會去了解他們每一筆的細節我這樣說好了啦中央續產會你們現在是用自由資金在幫他解釋嘛但你回去看中央續產會從開始到現在從開始到現在他的錢不是納稅人支持的嗎要不然為什麼是公社財團發的"},{"start":621.425,"end":640.278,"text":"你們用一個公社財團法人當擺手套就可以迴避監督迴避所有的規管嗎?這是我的問題那他一開始成立是由幾個單位去合資成立的但是他每一年他還是有自己的收入時間的問題啦我只問一個最關鍵的問題是不是可以麻煩部長請問中央續產會2022年的時候是廠商他們是怎麼挑選的這第一個問題嘛是"},{"start":651.767,"end":654.255,"text":"這第一個問題第二個問題把合約交出來有沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13313ce1c106a289b607d0e137800dc086eac09f7998a2d5a4c16b63852e99275fcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:40:20 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11:49:39","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":559,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:49:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:40:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時40分）謝謝主席，有請主委及經濟部次長。"],["主席：請主委跟次長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安、次長早安。我們就直接切入重點，因為時間有限。主委，我想要直接請教您，核安會是三級獨立機構對吧！所以你們最重要的工作就是要確保臺灣的核能輻射還有放射性物料的安全，所以如果我說沒有核安就沒有核電延役這句話是否成立？"],["陳主任委員東陽：完全正確。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們要如何讓國人理解這個概念？所謂的安全，到底我們最在意的是什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就是我們要把所有的程序走完，合乎法令，我們按照所有的法規規範去做縝密的研析，核安會會在每一個階段來做完全的把關。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個把關的部分如果是交由核安會，我想核安會會一再的為國人把關核安相關的安全對嗎？針對這部分，我想國人對於核安會的期待非常非常的明顯、非常非常的重要。如果用這個角度往下看，關於目前核電的使用以及核電廠延役的問題，我們一直認為不能只是如同很多在野黨委員所說的從單一國家的案例來看，例如每一個國家的國土樣態、人民組成、產業發展狀態完全不一樣，所以如果只有單獨從單一個國家來看，我們可能會遇到什麼樣論辯上的風險，可不可以請主委回答一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想每一個國家都有自己能源的考量，我們在報告裡面花了很多時間來論述整個世界、各個國家的趨勢及其想法，我想能源政策還是由經濟部就國家未來的考量來做統一的說明跟決策。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們等一下會請次長回答。可是我們來看一下，在2023世界核能產業現況報告裡面提到，全球的核電發電量出現十年來的最大跌幅，占比也下跌到四十年以來的新低，甚至在2022年全球核電發電量相較於2021年還下降了4%，我們可以看出這是自福島核災以來最大的降幅。請問主委跟次長，對於全球核電使用占比出現新低，你們認為有什麼樣的背景因素，導致全球核電發電量的下降跟使用占比也創下新低？"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員，我想這個部分可能就是有些機組除役了，可能有些新的機組沒有上來，我想主要的原因可能就是來自於機組新舊之間的替換。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是其他國家的現況還是臺灣的現況？"],["林次長全能：您剛剛請教的部分是全球的情形，我剛剛的報告裡面有提到有很多機組都是停役下來，有些新建的機組還在興建中，我想可能是因為這個原因吧？這是我個人的推估。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這是您個人的推估，但是我們有另外一個數據跟您分享，在2023年世界核能產業現況報告裡面看到另外一個重要的資訊，除了核電量往下降之外，重點是非水力的再生能源發電相較於核電，它是逐年上升的，甚至在2021年相關太陽光電還有風電的總發電量都超過核電，2022年相較於核電發電量還高出將近30%，來到28%，相關的負載率已顯著提升。國際能源總署甚至還預測2025年再生能源將超越燃煤，成為全球最主要的動力來源，也就是說，所有再生能源發電正逐年上升，核電則逐年下降，我想請經濟部回答，對於這樣的國際趨勢，在經濟部相關的能源政策裡面，是不是有確實掌握到？"],["林次長全能：我們所知道的部分，就是全球現在是邁向2050淨零碳排，綠能還是邁向2050淨零碳排很重要而且是主要的一個解決方案。"],["陳委員培瑜：這樣的方案對於臺灣的產業發展有什麼樣的好處？尤其是臺灣有大量的出口產業。"],["林次長全能：我想它有直接的跟間接的好處，直接的部分，我們在綠能這一塊，不僅僅提供低碳、無碳的能源，還可以連帶去帶動一些新興的產業，比如綠能相關的新興產業；另外在間接的部分，就是我們用到綠能的產業，他們也可以有更多無碳的能源來拓展國際市場。"],["陳委員培瑜：在國際趨勢底下，這樣的市場對於臺灣的出口產業確實有很大幫助，對嗎？"],["林次長全能：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是，每次只要講到國際趨勢，就有很多國際資訊會被誤用。去年12月COP28大會期間，各國對於能源使用有一些討論，在場外美國有22個擁核國家說2050年核能發電量會增加3倍，可是如果我們仔細去看那個內文會發現，其實這不是當時會議的正式決議。事實上大會的正式結論是歐盟還有118個國家將發起再生能源和能源效率，全球承諾要在2030年把全球再生能源容量增為三倍，全球平均能源效率提高率增為兩倍。所以關於再生能源的承諾，跟大家願意去實踐、去努力、去規劃，這應該才是全球共識吧！這部分可否請次長來跟大家做個說明？"],["林次長全能：我剛剛在報告裡面也提到，國際能源總署推估核能的發電占比在2030年是10%，2050年是8%，我們是依照這個國際統計資料來做說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：除這個說明之外，我們在協助國內產業時，應該也是往這個方向去規劃你們的能源政策，對嗎？"],["林次長全能：目前我們都是積極的發展我們的再生能源。"],["陳委員培瑜：就這個部分，我們希望經濟部站在協助產業的角度，還有核安會站在為國人安全把關的情況下，持續往這個方向努力。謝謝，次長請回。","我們來看下一個議題，有關游離輻射的事情。我們辦公室一直有跟核安會討論過游離輻射防護法修正的進度，主委有印象嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：相關法規的修正進度，很重要的一點就是醫療從業人員的劑量管制問題，我們知道你們對相關醫療從業人員的作業投入關注，因為他們的工作頻繁接觸到這些放射線，需要積極的管制，所以我們在這邊拜託核安會要積極更注意。","我們再往下看，之前有媒體報導雙和醫院影像醫學部懷孕女醫師疑遭職場霸凌，強迫連續上班32個小時，而且暴露在游離輻射環境工作。核安會清楚這個事件嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室跟核安會輻防組還有勞動部職安署索資，其中本席有特別匡起來，請主委看一下，相關的資料顯示，勞工健檢目前有第三級的情況，請問主委可以說明什麼是所謂的第三級？"],["張組長淑君：在每年的一個核能體檢裡頭，都會去做工作上的一些健康鑑別度，這部分是由專業醫生來做的。"],["陳委員培瑜：你剛剛講的，聽起來好像沒有什麼；可是我來念給你聽，在你們的說明當中，你們說特殊健康檢查或是健康追蹤檢查結果，部分或全部項目異常，經過醫師綜合判定為異常，而無法確定此異常與工作之相關性，應該進一步請職業醫學科專科醫師評估；換言之，不能排除身體健檢異常與工作無關，而且實務上要留意跟追蹤。為什麼我剛剛會提到這位醫師他的工作情況跟游離輻射？我們這邊認為，如果特殊健檢的結果是第三級的管理機制，核安會這邊是不是應該要有更積極的相關追蹤？"],["張組長淑君：是的，核安會都有去介入……"],["陳委員培瑜：關於這個案或是其他案例的相關工作人員，你們目前追蹤的進度如何？"],["張組長淑君：對於這部分，我們會再去要求設施經營者，也就是雇主必須對他的健康去做一個追蹤，如果是跟職業有關係的，就會去調整相關的一些輻射作業。"],["陳委員培瑜：對於這個追蹤，你們有相關的業務報告嗎？我們辦公室可以索資嗎？因為要協助確保這些醫療人員的職安。"],["張組長淑君：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝核安會，謝謝主席。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝各位。","接下來吳春城委員、吳春城委員、吳春城委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","張智倫委員，質詢時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.19721875,"end":25.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.39409375,"end":39.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.05846875,"end":40.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.93596875,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.28471875,"end":52.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.35596875,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.43346875,"end":110.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.05971875,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.48221875000002,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.63221875000002,"end"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這個把關的部分如果是交由核安會所以我想核安會會一再的為國人把關相關核安的安全對嗎好 我想這個部分國人對於核安會的期待非常非常的明顯非常非常的重要所以我們來看一下如果用這個角度往下來看呢關於目前核電的使用還有核電廠延役的問題我們一直認為不能只是如同很多在野黨委員所說的從單一國家的案例來看"},{"start":97.64,"end":98.161,"text":"可否請主委回答一下?"},{"start":113.103,"end":135.817,"text":"我想每一個國家都有自己能源的考量那麼我們在報告裡面花了很多時間來論述這個整個世界各個國家的趨勢跟他的想法那麼能源政策我想還是由經濟部就統一就國家的未來的考量來做統一的說明跟決策"},{"start":136.317,"end":163.144,"text":"好,那我們等一下會請次長回答可是我們來看一下在2023世界核能產業現況報告裡面就說全球的核電發電量出現10年來的最大跌幅占比也下跌到40年以來的新低甚至在2022年全球核電發電量相較於2021年還下降了4%甚至可以看出這是自福島核災以來最大的降幅請問主委跟次長"},{"start":163.684,"end":172.769,"text":"你們對於全球核電使用佔比出現新低你們認為有什麼樣的背景因素導致於全球核電發電量的下降跟使用佔比也創下新低?這個是其他國家的現況還是台灣的現況?"},{"start":192.209,"end":220.718,"text":"您剛剛請教的部分就是全球的情形那我剛剛報告裡面有看到說有很多機組都是停業下來有些新建的機組還在新建中那我想可能是因為這個原因吧我個人推估好這是您個人推估但是我們有另外一個數據跟您分享我們來看下一頁在2023年世界核能產業現況報告裡面看到另外一個重要的資訊除了核電量往下降之外重點是非水利的再生能源發電逐漸上升甚至相較於核電它是逐年上升"},{"start":221.218,"end":225.882,"text":"甚至在2021年和相關太陽光電還有風電的總發電量超過核電到了2022年相較核電發電量還高出將近30%來到28%相關的負載率已經有顯著提升甚至我們再看國際能源總屬還預測在2025年再生能源將超越燃煤成為全球最主要的動力來源"},{"start":244.918,"end":271.795,"text":"也就是說所有這些再生能源發電逐年上升加上核電逐年下降這個綜合起來看你們認為我想請經濟部回答這樣的國際趨勢是不是在經濟部的相關能源政策裡面是有確實掌握到的我們所知道的部分就是全球現在是邁向2050淨零碳排綠能還是一個很重要的邁向2050淨零碳排的主要的一個這個解決的方案"},{"start":273.475,"end":301.447,"text":"這樣的方案對於臺灣的產業發展有什麼樣的好處?尤其是臺灣有大量的出口產業我想它有直接的跟間接的一個好處直接的部分當然是我們對綠能不僅僅提供低碳無碳的能源而能帶起新興的產業比如說綠能有相關的新興產業另外一個間接的部分就是說我們用到綠能的產業他們也可以更多的無碳的能源來拓展國際的市場"},{"start":302.688,"end":305.47,"text":"這樣的市場對於台灣出口產業確實是有很大幫助在國際趨勢底下好我們來看每次只要講到國際趨勢就有很多國際資訊會被誤用往下看下一個在去年12月COBR28大會期間各國對於能源使用有一些討論在場外有美國我說的是場外"},{"start":321.158,"end":347.094,"text":"美國有22個擁核國家說2050年核能發電量會增加3倍可是我們如果仔細去看那個內文會發現其實這不是當時會議的正式決議事實上正式的大會結論是說歐盟還有118個國家將發起再生能源和能源效率全球承諾要在2030年把全球再生能源容量增為3倍"},{"start":348.215,"end":371.434,"text":"全球平均能源效率提高率增為兩倍所以關於再生能源的承諾跟大家願意去實踐去努力去規劃這應該才是全球共識吧這邊可不可以請次長回答一下也跟大家做個說明我剛剛在報告裡面有提到說我們有看到國際的能源總數推估核能的發電占比在2030年是10%2050年是8%那我們是依照這個國際的統計資料來做一個說明這樣子"},{"start":377.039,"end":377.059,"text":" ﹝講解﹞"},{"start":407.039,"end":407.94,"text":"雙核醫院影像醫學部懷孕女醫師移遭職場霸凌"},{"start":433.04,"end":457.291,"text":"強迫連續上班32個小時而且暴露在游離輻射環境工作這個事件核安會清楚嗎?清楚那我們辦公室跟核安會服防組還有勞動部指安署所知我們發現有個框框這邊我特別框起來主委請您看一下相關的資料顯示出來勞工健檢目前有第三級的情況請問主委您可以說明一下什麼是所謂的第三級嗎?"},{"start":464.208,"end":473.698,"text":"每年的一個核能體檢的裡頭都會去做一個工作上的一些健康的識別度那這個是由專業的醫生來去做的"},{"start":478.353,"end":481.476,"text":"好,你剛剛講的聽起來好像沒有什麼可是我來唸給你聽在你們的說明當中你們說特殊健康檢查或是健康追蹤檢查結果部分或全部項目異常經過醫師綜合判定為異常而無法確定此異常與工作之相關性"},{"start":495.669,"end":516.303,"text":"應該進一步請職業醫學科專科醫師評估換言之不能排除身體健檢異常與工作無關而且實務上要留意跟追蹤為什麼我剛剛說這一位醫師他的工作情況跟游離輻射我們這邊認為如果特殊健檢的結果是第三級的管理機制那這邊核安會是不是應該要有更積極的相關追蹤"},{"start":518.746,"end":544.338,"text":"我們核安會都有去介入那目前你們追蹤的進度關於這個個案或者是其他的案例這部分我們會是其他的相關工作人員對我們會再去就是再去要求我們的設施經營者也就是雇主要必須要對他的一個健康來去做一個一個追蹤然後如果是有有跟職業有關係的那就會去調整所謂的一些一些相關的一個輻射作業"},{"start":545.759,"end":545.799,"text":"謝謝各位。"}]}},{"id":"153258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133140f39974bddc79efde1b7f2d659cc489a3ee6acdf2d5e98703c53ec228b776055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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主席部長好好 也請部長這個 我們先談這個"},{"start":64.69,"end":90.398,"text":"零四零三避震的這個重建方案這個我也諮詢過這個內政部前任的部長我們看這個最左邊受災戶住宅貸款利息補貼這個重建貸款或是重構貸款的利息補貼最高貸款額度350萬元"},{"start":92.752,"end":120.105,"text":"這個修繕貸款利息補貼最高貸款額度150萬元這個數字齁如果我們去跟921齁921很久了民國25年前了921齁921的時候就是350萬啊過五級住宅重建貸款每戶最高350萬元利息補貼"},{"start":122.475,"end":142.102,"text":"以前不叫利息補貼就是說他的利息就透過銀行去協助降低他的利息150萬元以下免利息所以這個部分25年前當初不是內政部主管"},{"start":143.727,"end":169.518,"text":"因為那時候還沒有住宅法也還沒有住宅基金那時候以前是國宅基金不一樣所以不是用那筆錢是去協調銀行協調銀行所以你現在用利息補貼你就會考慮到那些因素你的住宅基金可不可以負擔那麼多但是我們要考慮的是25年前就350"},{"start":172.315,"end":190.496,"text":"現在還在350物價什麼都不一樣了所以這個部分是要去真的要再提高提高這已經差距那麼久了我們看他災害防救法是後來修的災害防救法"},{"start":192.469,"end":207.817,"text":"中央災害防救委員會因協調金融機構所以你不是用你的住宅基金你要去協調金融機構重建修繕的資金給第一例貸款"},{"start":208.752,"end":208.892,"text":"主席"},{"start":226.192,"end":253.129,"text":"因為之前不是你而是後來這樣的一個業務所以這個部分我們要去檢討要增加真的要增加物價指數各方面房價都不一樣了25年來真的不一樣了可以嗎可以檢討嗎去協調嗎跟委員報告其實委員大概可能我們一般的啦如果今天沒有地震的話我們一般就算你最好的這個"},{"start":254.49,"end":282.592,"text":"這個利息補貼大概本來上限都是250萬的確是因為這次政財委員會我們才去跟金管委員會再討論他才同意拉到350萬是這個數字部長真的要去協調常理來看25年前到現在都沒有增加實在是真的是各方面說不過去這個部分去協調好不好我們會再跟那個政財委員會政財基金會再討論"},{"start":284.755,"end":311.105,"text":"好 所以我的具體的建議我的具體的建議我也有寫一封信給那個新商任的院長 卓榮泰院長上次去花蓮的時候我也寫了一封信給他我的具體的建議就是一千萬提高到一千萬利息就不要降低他的利率然後450萬以下免利息"},{"start":311.605,"end":313.627,"text":"天然災害：無論是地震：或者是風災：或者是水災："},{"start":334.315,"end":353.622,"text":"不能因為政災風災的那個大小但是對一個個人個體負來一個家負而言不能因為說我腳踝也很大然後我就補助很多然後那個莫拉克颱風小一點我就小一點0403小一點"},{"start":355.851,"end":380.457,"text":"或是一般的風災地震但是對一個家戶而言他都是一個不應該去大小去區分而是以各戶各家戶他所受的災害是一樣的應該要一樣的所以在那個消防署你們再去檢視一下去檢視一下整個莫拉克颱風還有921重建條例這些這些暫停條例這些條例"},{"start":385.29,"end":402.221,"text":"有無全部把他放在災害防救法裡面還沒有納入的修正納入這樣的話才可以一體適用而不要說每一次都還要要不要訂一個特別條例又在那邊爭執以莫拉科颱風來講一個月"},{"start":405.029,"end":423.585,"text":"莫納克的特別條例一個月就送到立法院完成三讀通過從風災到三讀通過只有一個月所以這個部分我們現在既然已經把大部分的條文有放在災害防救法我們再檢視一下可以嗎"},{"start":426.168,"end":450.557,"text":"跟委員報告每次重大事故完以後我們會整個再做制度上的檢討包括法律面檢討我知道我們上一屆我們在上一屆有做了很大的一個修正再檢視我們再來依照委員指示來再做一個確鑑基本上都已經拉進來了因為議題其實還很多時間的關係希望下次還有很快的就能再質詢部長因為還沒有讓你講話了"},{"start":455.722,"end":456.464,"text":"鄭天財委員執行"}]}},{"id":"153257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331d057541bd3776fb0de1b7f2d659cc489a3ee6acdf2d5e9876b1af878bc708cb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:16:17 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11:25:33","影片長度":"00:09:16","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":556,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:25:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:16:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時16分）謝謝主席，本席請劉部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。本席看了您的學經歷，我對你有很多期許，因為您做過行政院秘書長、做過總統府副秘書長，還做過政務委員，也做過立委，所以我看到我們很多的業務都需要整合性，我是第二度再進到立法院當立委，我發現各部會常常推來推去，大家都自掃門前雪，所以在劉部長就任之後，內政部也有非常非常多的事務，我們希望能夠借用您過去這樣的經驗好好的來推展。首先本席也是要請教部長，就是今天大家都在關心的，本席也是新竹選出來的立委，我們新竹前兩天發生的這個火災，剛剛聽了前面兩位立委跟部長的答詢，您知道真正讓消防員殉職最確實的原因是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：如果根據初步的火調資料的話，就是說他們可能是因為一氧化碳中毒，然後窒息，我所瞭解是這樣子，但最後是以檢察官為主。"],["徐委員欣瑩：署長有沒有跟您說，就在去年12月，我們新竹也有一位才剛殉職，現在才幾月？現在是5月，去年12月28號，我有在現場，署長親自來醫院的急診室看這位殉職的員警，我也在現場，其實這兩起，不要講其他的，其實全國現在常常聽到消防員殉職真正的原因，不是您剛剛講的，還有沒有更深入一點的？"],["劉部長世芳：請徐委員指教。"],["徐委員欣瑩：署長沒有說嗎？上一次12月才發生，現在5月又發生。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。事實上，每一次意外事件，我們都有災調會進行詳細原因的調查，去年的事故……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我聽你講到這裡，可以先暫停，剛剛我也聽到部長講非常的不捨，我們大家都很不捨，真正的原因、最大的原因剛剛也有很多委員提到，就是我們消防人員員額不足，我先講兩天前的這個火災，他們其實已經去救一輪出來了，正常的話他救一輪出來，署長你應該知道，這兩個人應該要停下來換裝備，換另外兩個人進去，因為沒有另外兩個人，人員不足，所以他們沒有換裝備就再進去，這是第一個；第二個，去年12月，一樣在新竹發生的火災，而且他是分隊長，照理說分隊長要做指揮，但是人員不足，他就自己進去，而且進去的時候，我們署長應該知道，部長您一定要瞭解，這個是非常緊急，全國都迫切的，我們不希望再聽到有這麼多消防員殉職，那個分隊長他一個人進去，其實救災一定要兩人一組，我想大家都知道，但他就一個人進去，這顯示出我們的員額不足。就本席瞭解，今年度我們本來要招收多少人？"],["蕭署長煥章：1,000位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：1,000位，結果報考的有多少？"],["蕭署長煥章：有1,900位報名。"],["徐委員欣瑩：1,900位報名？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那為什麼沒辦法有1,000位？"],["蕭署長煥章：因為我們考試的規則是一半錄取，平均分數要50分以上，錄取的平均分數，那三百多位是因為錄取平均分數沒達到50分，所以才剩下三百多個人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有沒有打算招收第二波？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，考試的方式我們已經跟考試院檢討，怎麼樣把它的配分做適當調配……"],["徐委員欣瑩：除了配分……"],["蕭署長煥章：現在已經確定了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然我們也認同他考試要通過，因為這個包含專業。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們還要訓練他。"],["蕭署長煥章：操作訓練。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當人員不足的時候就要想辦法再增加。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席8年前當立委，消防人員也是，當然警消都不太足夠，但是不像現在缺成這樣。我也跟部長說明，舉新竹的一個消防分隊為例，8至12年前，全新竹縣1席立委就是本席，現在有2席，就是因為人口增加、在竹北，竹北增加的那個區塊是密集人口區，跟這次發生地的距離也非常近、新竹縣市交界那裡，那邊一直沒有成立消防分隊。好不容易去年底也成立了一個消防分隊，結果人員不足，整個消防分隊只有6個人，1個人要留守，真正發生事情的時候，大家都知道，開消防車要有1個、救護車要有1個，到了現場還要有人拉水線，又要2個，對不對？還有衝進去救人的，甚至水箱車沒有人開，像是高樓，雲梯車也沒有人開。我相信各縣市都有這種情況，新竹縣又特別、特別需要，所以就這一塊，中央單位不可以兩手一攤說就是沒人。","就本席瞭解，本來答應今年要給新竹縣36個，然後馬上通知減列、剩16個，16個再減列後剩9個，我跟部長報告，而且今年不給，要到明年1月才給。明年我們光是退休的就有9個，本就缺了40個，又退休9個，所以是49個。而你只有給9個，結果我們的缺額還是一樣。","本席在這裡花了那麼多時間，其實今天我有好幾個議題，但我覺得人命關天，不是每一次發生事情我們就說很惋惜或很不捨，大家都是人生父母養的，你看這些消防弟兄，他們這樣為了救火，你的人員不足、配備不足，大家都質詢了，所以我想請部長就員額的部分一定要加快、加緊，也不只新竹縣，在全國這是要救災救難的，部長您可不可以承諾？我今天也有提案，在我們9月份開議之前，你們的方案一定要出來，因為這個是緊急再緊急的！"],["劉部長世芳：是，剛剛徐委員所提的部分，我們一定要好好檢討，員額不足的地方，你也提到了一定要補足專業人力才有用，不能隨便找人，這是第一個。第二個，我們有沒有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，所以你要加快補人嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：補人的措施，你不可以按照正常程序。"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經跟考試院講了，希望考試院可以提高其錄取率，這是一個。另外一個就是我們在替代方案上能不能做比較好的編排，所謂的替代方案，我也跟徐委員報告，前兩天新竹那場大火，我知道到現場去的一共有24輛消防車，從哪裡調來？從新竹縣幫忙調來，也就是未來有沒有可能以區域性的方式來處理這方面的問題，所以這樣的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道你講的這個，但是跟您報告，確實我們都知道，就一個點，人不夠的話一定是就近，最佳的黃金10分鐘就是就近的……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，所以我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然都要調。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們必須要好好檢討。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛你講員額的部分，最後請主席再給我30秒，我要建議，是不是消防署有港務總隊？"],["蕭署長煥章：港務消防大隊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：港務消防大隊，這邊的人力沒有那麼吃緊的話，可以分一些出來。"],["蕭署長煥章：也是很吃緊，監察院也在糾正。所以跟委員報告，兩個部分的增加人力，一個是特考班，6月份要考，10月份測驗，明年1月份會入訓，這個部分是確定的，而且我們今年是要錄取1,000位；同時警專的正期班學生，從明年開始我們也從150位會增加到400位，也就是未來的年度，每年順利的話會有1,400位學生畢業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望可以儘快補足員額，這是對全國民眾的一個交代。謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，謝謝部長、謝謝署長，這的確是非常重要。","現在處理臨時提案。總共有3案，請宣讀。","一、","國土計畫明年五月正式啟動，相關影響效應與紛擾漸次顯現。國土分區有序運用的理想與實務，自105年1月6日總統公布國土計畫法立法以來，中央主管機關致力於推動事宜，但對於各界、各縣市政府乃至相關人民意見與訴求鮮少梳理微調。值茲正式執行前，相關意見、資訊與未來執行方案，中央主管機關均應系統性與地方政府、相關學界、公民團體再予溝通、聽取意見，亦應開闢民眾反應意見平台，俾使未來國土計畫執行減少衝擊與民怨。","爰請內政部於半年內分區舉行會議，邀集各縣市政府、學者專家、公民團體對國土計畫執行事宜溝通意見，並請於下會期開議前將分區辦理研討與民眾表達意見機制之規劃方案，向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　張智倫　　黃建賓","二、","消防人員以命拚搏救災打火，救災人員的充沛不僅攸關消防工作的落實，也影響社會安全，中央主管機關應予高度重視。","爰請內政部對於消防員額問題，在下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出檢討改進方案書面報告。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　張智倫　　黃建賓","三、","近年電動車風行也是未來趨勢，但電動車（含充電設備）火災，消防署未予應有的重視，從案件統計、救災科技方法、逃生注意事項，乃至於停車場設備安裝、使用標準，均付闕如。","爰請決議：請內政部邀集相關機關（構）研討上開諸事項應予改進方案，並於下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　張智倫　　黃建賓"],["主席：現在處理臨時提案，第1案是照案通過。","第3案有文字修正，把「消防署」劃掉，改成「爰請決議：請內政部邀集相關機關（構）研討上開諸事項應予改進方案……」，按照修正文字通過。","第2案目前還正在討論。","請問相關單位，你們有什麼意見嗎？"],["吳委員琪銘：由署長跟委員說明……"],["主席：好，請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為署長說了，但我就不太懂，他說已經有方案，他要把提案中的「方案」劃掉，那我覺得也沒差……不是方案就可以啊！檢討改進，他要改成檢討精進方案，可以啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：精進……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那為什麼不要「方案」？我還是不太懂。"],["蕭署長煥章：它正在執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以署長的意思是，有方案在執行了，而現在這個方案就是，你這個員額的方案目前全國都唉唉叫、都不合理，所以我要你有真正能夠符合大家需求的精進方案，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟主席及委員報告……"],["主席：請署長說明，用「方案」這兩個字，你有什麼樣窒礙難行之處？"],["蕭署長煥章：主要是我們已經有一個人力精進方案正在做，已經有一個方案在那邊執行。縣市的缺額是這兩年出來，一定要有縣市的預算缺額出來，我才有辦法做訓練。所以剛才特別跟委員會報告，未來特考班我們會增加到1,000位、正期班會增加到400位，每年會有1,400位學生畢業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：從哪一年開始？"],["蕭署長煥章：今年考試，已經列入今年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以要到幾年後？"],["蕭署長煥章：所以後年年初，1月份就會……順利的話就有1,000位會畢業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，絕對不是這兩年。","你是說那個數字這兩年出來。","但是在地方欠缺消防人力已經多年了，所以他回答的有點問題。"],["主席：這樣子好不好？署長，問題不在於所謂的方案上，方案你們已經有了嘛！所以不是那個文字，對不對？應該是在下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出檢討改進的方案，所以你認為「方案」有問題？"],["蕭署長煥章：方案是現在就有方案。"],["主席：已經在做了嘛！對不對？","那還有什麼問題呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：委員擔心的，是不是我做個書面報告……"],["主席：用麥克風好不好？謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛張委員說，把它改成「檢討改進報告」，就是不要「方案」的書面報告，因為他們一直強調不要「方案」。"],["主席：因為他說現在方案已經有了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你們現在的方案緩不濟急，而且應該要再改進吧！"],["蕭署長煥章：所以剛才跟委員說明的是，提出這個需求以後，我們今年6月份要考試，10月份會二測，二測完以後，順利就是明年1月份會入訓，今年報考人數是2,200位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那今年一整年全國這麼緊急怎麼辦？你要有這個方案好不好？我至少要有這個方案！你還是得想辦法啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分就是包括義消、包括各方面志工，甚至我們現在替代役的調整，這些我們也同步在執行。就是現有的狀況……"],["徐委員欣瑩：問題就出在義消。義消是義務的嘛！他們白天在上班，根本來不及啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們請張宏陸委員。"],["張委員宏陸：我建議一下好不好？其實署長可能認為方案是一整套、一大套的，我們如果把它改成「檢討改進計畫書面報告」，這樣子還是一樣，你就拿來。我覺得這樣沒有……"],["蕭署長煥章：反正報告我一定會來報告就對了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，你有聽懂他不能用「方案」的意思？我就不太懂！"],["蕭署長煥章：因為我們已經有一個方案在執行了，這表示……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的意思是你已經有現有的方案……"],["蕭署長煥章：對，已經有了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我請你給檢討的，你就寫不出檢討的方案，因為你就要用原來的，你不能再加強？"],["蕭署長煥章：我一定會把我們剛才所報告的這些精進措施提報出來。"],["主席：署長，剛剛宏陸委員有建議就是把「方案」改為「計畫」，這樣應該沒有問題了吧？"],["徐委員欣瑩：改進計畫書面報告！"],["主席：檢討改進計畫……"],["蕭署長煥章：我們遵照委員會的指示來辦。"],["主席：「方案」改成「計畫」，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請內政部對於消防員額問題，在下會期開議前向立法院內政委員會提出檢討改進計畫書面報告。好嗎？","好，我們把「方案」改成「計畫」，修正通過。好，謝謝。","我們中午不休息，繼續開會。現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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排所謂的替代方案我也跟徐惟文報告前兩天新竹那個大火的部分我知道到現場去一共有24輛消防車從哪裡調來從新竹縣幫忙調來也就是說未來有沒有可能是區域性的"},{"start":488.08,"end":488.8,"text":"我們是不是消防署有港務總隊"},{"start":512.736,"end":527.414,"text":"港務消防大隊那這邊的人力沒有那麼吃緊的話可以分一些出來也是很吃緊監察院也在做糾正所以跟委員報告兩個部分的增加人力一個是特考班6月份要考"},{"start":528.035,"end":528.275,"text":"徐欣瑩委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"153256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331f30038bf1ea5877dde1b7f2d659cc489a3ee6acdf2d5e987c1cb33d534d520845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:06:58 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主席我請我們的部長有請內部長部長好丁委員好"},{"start":15.114,"end":17.195,"text":"在這兩天,我們發生了高戰勞的災禍﹖我們選擇了兩位應用的消防人員﹖在這,過去我們的林立昌副長﹖他的領帶我一直提醒我們消防人員的權益﹖和我們的安全"},{"start":34.366,"end":34.626,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":54.764,"end":60.189,"text":"藍燒產生黑煙,造成對於你所救的兩位消防人員：因爲那個面罩叫ON：影響到,影響到誰：失去到這個風險感,做要驚慌出來：或是這個氣氛耗盡：復興來殉職：這個遺憾的事情,讓人是非常關心的：我們想另外的事情,是不是要及時來更新"},{"start":82.471,"end":104.768,"text":"先感謝丁委員的關心,我也覺得非常不捨跟遺憾那未來我們在做怎麼樣的檢討跟改進的話其實很多委員都有垂詢到包括說能不能提供更好的科技救災的方式在我們確定火場裡面並沒有要救助的人的時候那我們的消防員不要急著衝進去裡面"},{"start":106.049,"end":107.37,"text":"這就是我們未來我們要來討論的一個問題我們這個高漲樓的火災有可能我們看回後面的經驗"},{"start":126.565,"end":128.726,"text":"所謂進入我們這個國戰樓的規定．來發會．風險會更加健康．我們消防人員的．評．一屆的拉球是維持20分鐘．但是面對我們這個國戰樓的規定．現在這個．評．20分鐘的時間．是絕對是不夠的．"},{"start":152.193,"end":152.613,"text":"主席"},{"start":179.198,"end":181.56,"text":"我們要跟指揮中心進行溝通,讓他們有可能產生負流,來作出通訊問題。 面對恢復或交流的影響,作出視線不清。"},{"start":198.792,"end":204.736,"text":"沒有辦法判斷方向：有辦法我們設計提升可能性：這幾項我們都可以即刻來檢討：還可以更好找出問題：更好更新更快更新社會：對消防領域的保護這是最重要：否則這樣是有動益"},{"start":222.049,"end":231.393,"text":"感謝丁委員：你的觀察：跟你的講法都非常正確：我們來檢討和改善：是有一部分要補充的地方：我請我們蕭書長跟丁委員稍補充：是感謝委員：建築部高層建築物的設備是要靠建築部本身的自動灑水設備跟安全管理這個區塊來處理當然這個案例我們會整個來跟國土事務共同來檢討看怎麼來強化"},{"start":248.38,"end":266.385,"text":"．建築由業者來負責區塊．當天委員部說當天白營頂多賠一個．就是消防局個別裝備的器材補充．差不多有19億多的經費．那這個部分我部長有交代說．要跟地線統領．到底地線統領需要補什麼設備．這當地多鎮而已．當地統領要看什麼"},{"start":270.866,"end":286.496,"text":"真的能夠符合縣市第一線同仁救災的需求,我給議員跟委員報告那氣頻要不要容量要不要增加,這個會牽涉到我們的訓練跟裝備的複合而且曾經某些國家用過,結果重心沒穩,點頭不見的是好事"},{"start":289.878,"end":293.901,"text":"這個運作的模式我們幾個月檢討了什麼方式：對救災人員是有幫助的：這個方式來處理：這個過分可能我們像宿舍要比較費心一點：再麻煩您現在現代我們這個火條"},{"start":304.386,"end":304.406,"text":"：丁"},{"start":332.381,"end":332.422,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":338.817,"end":343.018,"text":"提醒國土計劃法以及法律內容每年4月30日開始實施。進行林副長下令進行,但委員會沒有進行討論。進行經過國管局申告後,每年可以接行或不可以接行。"},{"start":365.06,"end":368.663,"text":"國土計劃法是不是在明年4月30號的時候呢可以完成然後對外全面來公佈"},{"start":381.015,"end":381.215,"text":"沈淑芬議員"},{"start":398.74,"end":412.949,"text":"但是在你一句共識之前我們必須要了解說每一個人他們所提到他們在乎的是什麼項目不是只有一句譬如說雲林縣政府向縣長也提到說暫緩實施那盧秀燕市長臺中市長也說暫緩實施那這個新北市長告訴我說他們比較疑慮希望能夠多溝通但是疑慮是什麼他沒有告訴我疑慮是什麼所以我想說是不是趕快關起政府這分配我們再討論清楚之後"},{"start":428.038,"end":448.942,"text":"按照原來的計劃來執行 按照原來的計劃 按照行政程序 縣市縣市各別分開 或者是不同的聚落或是不同的地區分開來執行 這樣子有助於他推動 因為畢竟國土計劃法我們已經講了十幾二十年以上 如果沒有推動的話對未來台灣的整體的國土規劃還是會有影響"},{"start":452.543,"end":455.966,"text":"是 抱歉 發佈主席給我一點時間在這裏補充 給你說明一下經濟我們附近的區域 我們婦人館的農藥 農藥的農地區域的運輸都總有幾萬七千幾公頃這裏的農藥 農藥 將我們全國運輸基率差不多有三分之二的土地這個基率全國搬運是第二的"},{"start":481.385,"end":481.485,"text":"：丁學忠"},{"start":511.645,"end":512.406,"text":"感謝委員﹚"},{"start":537.208,"end":537.389,"text":"丁學忠委員"}]}},{"id":"153255","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153255","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13319bdb0ffbb00498c9de1b7f2d659cc489a3ee6acdf2d5e987cc21b40683e6c5e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:56:34 - 11:06:52","影片長度":"00:10:18","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":618,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:06:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:56:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時56分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家早安、大家好。有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，你好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好。恭喜你擔任新任的內政部長，期待未來朝野和諧，我們一起努力來為國人打拼。首先跟部長報告，昨天院會通過了國會改革五法，經過了四次院會，大家都非常辛苦，這邊想要先跟部長請教，你支持國會改革嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我支持在合憲範圍下的國會改革。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。部長，我這邊有查到一個資料，就在2015年8月17日，當時蔡英文政府準備要競選總統的時候，他有到高雄去拜會陳菊，當時你是要參選立法委員，那時候蔡英文政府有推一個五大改革，其中一個就是啟動國會改革，我這邊唸一段給你聽，當時蔡英文政府講了一段有關於國會改革的內容是：民進黨不會因為有機會執政，就排斥國會的制衡，國會對行政部門的監督力量一定要有力而專業，而讓行政、立法的民主制衡關係能相輔相成。國會應該是總統的鏡子，在野黨也不應該看成執政黨的敵人。他還特別講到，未來如果當時的蔡英文參選人擔任總統，他絕不害怕國會監督，因為他不會是一個獨行獨斷的總統，也不會是一個拒絕民意的總統，更不會是一個維護一黨之私的總統。當時你在參選立法委員，後來也順利當選，我希望大家可以一起來努力，針對國會改革來往前行。","可是很可惜地，我們看到行政院昨天晚上在臉書上發布說，對國會改革的部分，他說要移請立法院覆議，以及他尊重民進黨黨團三讀通過後要釋憲的決定。我是覺得非常遺憾，行政院感覺起來好像已經有準備就要對國會改革來提出意見。我也有針對行政院的內容仔細地去研讀，他對國會改革五法裡面的國情報告、藐視國會、人事同意權以及調查權都有意見，其中唯一一個沒有提出意見的就是聽證權的部分，可能在聽證權的部分，他們現在是比較有一致的共識啦！所以我這邊也希望部長，在未來禮拜五院會的時候，可以幫不管是在野黨或當時的蔡英文前總統一起來發聲，要記得當時民進黨是支持國會改革的，而且他有一段論述，我相信當時您也在現場，我希望部長可以來幫忙、來協助。","第二個我要拜託部長來回答的部分就是說，在審查國會改革法案的時候在院外聚集了非常多的年輕人，他們將這次的行動稱為青鳥行動，在這個行動中，我相信民眾去大型的集會場所都是正常的，我們也予以尊重，我是不是請警政署長可以一起來幫忙回答？"],["主席：請警政署署長。"],["張委員智倫：民進黨政策會的執行長王義川先生說，民進黨已經透過手機的電信信令服務對在現場民眾的資訊做一些確認，那我想要問的就是，必須讓民眾免於恐懼，民眾在參加大型聚會的時候，到底有什麼樣的資訊可以被一些廠商、一些特定團體或是一般民眾查詢到？"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，我們警察在執行群眾活動勤務的時候，絕對不會用手機去做群眾的定位，絕對沒有這些相關的問題。"],["張委員智倫：他當時說他可以針對手機的信令服務去查年齡層，做群眾組成的分析。"],["張署長榮興：這個我就不清楚，警察在處理群眾活動時，我們在維持群眾的秩序……"],["張委員智倫：我要跟署長報告，他甚至能夠分析出來這些群眾跟1月多民眾黨在選舉時自稱「小草」的民眾是不同的人。"],["張署長榮興：我們絕對不會去做這種事。"],["張委員智倫：那我請教一下署長跟部長，到底是什麼樣的單位或什麼樣的人有辦法去取得這樣的細部資料？我相信這是全民想要瞭解的，比如我今天去參加一個大型的活動，結果我的姓名被知道了，我的年紀也被知道了，如果只是知道人數是還可以，可是我會擔心我有參加過小草活動的這些資訊被透露出來，到底誰有能力去把這些資訊找出來，部長知道嗎？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個我不清楚，我們絕對不會用手機去做這樣的事情。"],["張委員智倫：我請教一下，什麼單位可以去取得這樣的資料？部長知道嗎？因為他的確有在新聞媒體上說，我相信不需要我原音重現，他說：這些人跟原來的小草，我們有去比對過，他跟原來這些517在民進黨樓下的那些小草的訊號比起來，也不同人啊！"],["劉部長世芳：報告張委員，我們在處理群眾活動的時候，我們都是注重警政如何維持現場的秩序，至於說有沒有後續、後端有人取得他們這些所謂的電訊資料，我們真的是不清楚，我真的是不清楚。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。當然我相信王先生講的是事實，所以我要拜託行政部門，針對民眾未來參加大型活動的資訊是不是有外洩，他跟一些民間團體在聯絡的時候是不是有取得一些機密的資料，他才可以這樣子去做一些分析，行政單位是不是要針對這些內容去做一個查核？我覺得這樣才可以讓民眾未來在參加一些大型活動的時候可以免於恐懼，不然我去參加活動的時候，網路上還說就好像老大哥在監視你一樣，人民沒有隱私權，我認為這樣是非常不正確的一個行為，拜託部長還有署長要讓人民免於恐懼，好不好？今天部長好像沒辦法回應我任何的問題，現在資訊非常的發達，人民的個資不應該被洩漏，所以要拜託部長，你不能就這樣無言以對啦！","接下來，我相信今天大家都非常注意新竹消防員的事情，我相信對於警消權益的問題我們都非常的重視，就我本身的瞭解，我們對警消人員所擔心的一個點就是他們的預算員額能不能增加，顧名思義就是說，假設今天警消人員的預算員額要200個人，那應聘的人到底是多少？比如說應聘是190個人，但是當時很多警消人員可能因為個人因素、家庭因素、健康因素而離職，可能到最後只有180個人，所以有很多警政單位現在第一線人員的人數是缺乏的。當然我們立法委員沒有辦法要求行政單位去增加預算，可是我要拜託警消單位，你們是不是在預算員額的部分可以做增加？簡單來講，就是讓預算員額的人數可以增加，未來我們的警消人員可以更充足，就可以解決過去大家常常講的員額不足、預算不足、設備不足裡面的員額不足這個問題，是不是請部長回答一下？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝張委員對於警消的協助跟幫忙，我們會跟地方政府共同來討論這個部分，但是重要的是預算員額是有的，問題是怎麼樣補足，像剛剛我們有提到消防員要有進用資格的話，要先通過考試院的考試，那上次考試院所舉行考試的錄取率非常低，所以現在的重點是怎麼樣把錄取率提高，因為我們是要求合格的消防員才可以補足消防的人員，對這一點我們一定來加強，尤其在新竹這個事情發生之後，我們有顯現出這樣子的弱點，針對這個弱點，我們也已經跟考試院做比較好的協調，在下一次舉行關於消防員的考試時，儘量以提高錄取率的方式來補足員額不足的地方。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我要拜託部長，我強烈要求部長跟兩位署長一定要提供本席相關資料，就是過去這3年你們的預算員額、實際應聘的員額，跟過了一年、兩年以後是不是整體消防員、警察人數有下降。我還是要提出來，如果預算員額增加，其實就會有備用人力、訓練人力，如果其中有部分單位的人數不足，就可以補充過去，我覺得這樣才可以部分的去改善所有警消人員在執勤上的危險，請問你們還有沒有什麼要補充的？現在有沒有這樣的情形？"],["張署長榮興：我想員額這個部分也是配合地方縣市政府的預算來做整體的考量，我們會再做通盤的檢討。"],["張委員智倫：好，大概多久可以把書面報告給本席？"],["張署長榮興：書面報告？"],["張委員智倫：對，就是過去3年的。"],["張署長榮興：大概1個月可以嗎？"],["張委員智倫：好，可以，謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝兩位署長。繼續我們請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 各位官員 大家早安 大家好 有請部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":17.16,"end":44.261,"text":"張委員你好部長好恭喜你擔任我們新任的這個內政部長那期待未來這個朝野和諧那你可以我們一起努力來為我們國人一起來打拼那首先跟這個部長報告在昨天這個我們院會有通過了國會改革的無法經過了四次院會大家都非常辛苦那這邊要想要先跟部長請教你支持國會改革嗎我支持在合憲範圍下的國會改革"},{"start":46.001,"end":62.195,"text":"好謝謝部長部長我這邊有查到一個資料就在2015年的8月17號那時候蔡英文政府當時在準備要競選這個總統的時候他有到高雄來去拜會就是來跟陳菊那時候你是當時是要參選立法委員"},{"start":63.296,"end":79.108,"text":"當時蔡英文政府她就有推她有一個五大改革其中一個就是啟動這個國會改革那我這邊唸一段給你聽齁那當時蔡英文政府她講了一段關於國會改革的內容是說民進黨不會因為有機會執政就排斥國會的制衡"},{"start":80.068,"end":106.522,"text":"國會對行政部門的監督力量一定要專業而有力而專業而讓行政立法的民主制衡關係能相輔相成國會應該是總統的禁止在野黨也不應該看成執政黨的敵人那還有特別要講未來如果當時的蔡英文參選人擔任總統絕不害怕國會監督因為他不會是一個獨行獨斷的總統也不會是一個拒絕民意的總統更不會是一個維護一黨之勢的總統"},{"start":108.283,"end":109.244,"text":"行政院昨天晚上"},{"start":126.778,"end":153.175,"text":"就發布了在臉書上發布說他對國會改革的部分他說要移請他要移請這個立法院來復議以及他尊重民進黨黨團的三讀通過的這個後他要要求他也尊重這個民進黨黨團要釋憲那我這邊是覺得非常的遺憾這個行政院感覺起來好像已經事有準備了就要對國會改革來提出這個意見"},{"start":154.136,"end":169.373,"text":"那這邊我也是針對這個行政院的內容仔細的去研讀他對國情報告國會改革無法裡面的國情報告藐視國會人事同意權以及調查權都有意見其中唯一一個他沒有提出意見就是聽證權的部分那相信"},{"start":170.074,"end":191.178,"text":"可能現在在聽政權的部分他們現在是比較有一致的貢獻所以這邊也希望部長在未來禮拜四的院會的時候可以幫這個不管是在野黨或當時的蔡英文前總統一起來發聲記得說當時民進黨是支持國會改革的而且還有一段論述那當時我相信您在現場所以希望這個部長可以來幫忙來協助"},{"start":195.279,"end":220.185,"text":"那第二個我要帶部長來回答的部分就是說在這個國會改革的時候我相信在院外聚集了非常多的這個年輕人那他們稱我這次的行動叫做親鳥行動那這個行動中我相信民眾去大型的集會場所都是正常的讓我們予以尊重那可是在現場的時候我是請這個警政署長可以一起來幫忙一下"},{"start":220.845,"end":233.777,"text":"在現場的時候民進黨的政治會執行長王毅川先生說他可以針對民進黨已經透過手機的這個電信信令的服務來去對這個民眾的資訊來去做一些確認"},{"start":237.56,"end":251.436,"text":"那我想要問就是民眾必須免於恐懼到底民眾參加大型聚會的時候有什麼樣的資訊會對一些廠商或對一些特定團體或是一般民眾都可以查詢到的嗎"},{"start":252.937,"end":272.547,"text":"報告委員我們警察在執行群眾活動的時候絕對不會用手機去做定位群眾的這些相關的問題絕對沒有那請問他當時說他可以去針對手機的這個性命服務去查年齡層跟群眾組成的分析這個我就不清楚那警察的這個部分在處理群眾我們"},{"start":274.107,"end":295.322,"text":"我要跟署長報告說他甚至能夠來分析出來說這些的群眾跟當時小草一月多民眾黨在選舉的時候的小草的民眾的人是不同的那我請教一下我們絕對不會去做這種那我請教一下署長跟部長"},{"start":295.942,"end":324.075,"text":"到底什麼樣的單位或什麼樣的人有辦法去取得這樣的細部的資料我相信這是全民要去了解的比如我今天去參加一個大型的活動結果我的姓名也被知道了我的這個年紀也被知道了我的這個人數人數知道是還可以可是他會擔心說我有沒有參加過小草活動的這些資訊為什麼會被透露出來到底誰有能力去把這些資訊給找出來"},{"start":326.677,"end":352.879,"text":"這個我不清楚,我們絕對不會去用手機去做那我請教一下那什麼單位可以去取得這樣的資料?部長知道嗎?因為的確他在新聞頂上解說他說我相信不要不需要我原因重現啦就是說他說這個他說原來這些人跟原來的小草沒有去比對過他跟原來這些517在民進黨樓下那些草草去跟他比起來也不同人啊"},{"start":355.142,"end":369.127,"text":"報告張委員我們在處理這個群眾活動的時候呢我們都是注重這個警政如何維持現場的次序至於說有沒有後續後端有人處理這些所謂的電訊資料取得他們這些我們真的是不清楚"},{"start":369.907,"end":374.093,"text":"王先生講的是事實,所以我是不是可以拜託行政部門的時候,針對民眾未來去參加大型活動,他的資訊是不是有外洩,他跟一些民間團體"},{"start":385.31,"end":403.753,"text":"在聯絡的時候是不是有取得一些機密的資料他才可以這樣子來去做一些分析那我相信憑證單位這邊是不是要針對這些的內容來去做一個查核我覺得這樣子才可以讓民眾未來去參加一些大型活動的時候可以免於恐懼不然我什麼時候去參加活動的時候"},{"start":404.594,"end":429.65,"text":"但我相信這個網路上還在說就好像在老大哥在監視你一樣人民沒有隱私權我認為這樣是非常不正確的一個行為好不好拜託部長這邊還有署長這邊要讓人民免於恐懼那今天部長這邊好像沒辦法回應我任何的問題所以我相信說現在資訊非常的發達人民的個資不應該被外露所以這拜託部長不能就跟我默默無言以對"},{"start":430.811,"end":450.604,"text":"那接下來我相信今天大家都非常注意的就是這個新竹消防員的事情那我相信很多有關於這個警消的權益的問題我們都非常的重視那這邊我是不是可以拜託就我本身的了解我們這個在警消人員的時候我擔心的一個點就是說我們的預算原額的部分能不能去做增加"},{"start":451.584,"end":475.55,"text":"顧名思義就是說假設今天這個警消的人員預算原額假設要200個人是應聘的人到底是多少比如說應聘是190個人那在遇到這些可能當時很多的這些警消人員可能因為個人因素家庭因素健康因素而離職的可能到最後只有180個人所以顧名思義很多我們警政單位現在第一線的服務人員人數是缺乏的"},{"start":476.03,"end":477.952,"text":"是不是請部長回答一下?"},{"start":501.69,"end":526.021,"text":"謝謝張委員對於警消的這個協助跟幫忙我們會跟地方政府共同來討論這個部分但是重要的是預算原額是有的怎麼樣補足像剛剛我們有提到消防員呢他們要有禁用的這個資格的話要經過考試院的這個考試那上次考試院的考試呢錄取率非常的低那現在怎麼樣把錄取率提高因為我們是合格的消防員才可以上這個消防的人員的這個補足"},{"start":530.664,"end":544.378,"text":"新竹事件發生後,我們有顯現出這樣的弱點,這個弱點我們也跟考試院已經做比較好的協調,在下一次有關於消防員的考試的時候,盡量以提高錄取率的方式來補足緣而不足的地方。"},{"start":544.918,"end":573.582,"text":"對,所以部長這邊我拜託主席再一下下所以這邊拜託部長所以我這邊這是強烈的要求就是說部長跟兩位署長這邊一定要提供本席就是過去以來可能這三年你們的這個預算員額跟實際應聘的員額跟實際應聘員額過了一年兩年了以後是不是整體消防員警察人數有下降所以我這邊還是要提出我如果預算員額增加其實它就是有個備用人力訓練人力的一個單位它是可以補足說如果其中"},{"start":574.182,"end":585.517,"text":"有部分的這個單位是人數不足的時候他可以補充過去我覺得這才可以部分的去改善所有我們警消人員他在執行上的危險所以還有沒有什麼要補充的嗎"},{"start":587.478,"end":614.158,"text":"現在有沒有這樣的情形我想這個原額這個部分呢也是配合地方縣市政府的預算來做一個衡量整體的一個考量那我們會再做這個通盤的這個檢討好是不是有沒有時間大概多久可以把這個書面報告給本席書面報告那是不是過去三年了大概一個月可以嗎好可以可以好謝謝署長謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":616.145,"end":616.548,"text":"好謝謝張智倫委員"}]}},{"id":"153254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13319a5aba67f5059422243e47098157e4f6a3ee6acdf2d5e987da9f4d80c98cffc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:33:41 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第二我要把我們的張署長肯定的就是我們這一次那個石斑、龍膽、珍珠斑、我們削到東山崗等等"},{"start":57.685,"end":68.913,"text":"我們業署非常的小心也非常的努力也非常的嚴格那現在銷的還蠻順的齁阿在黃理事長跟我的努力下我們那個"},{"start":70.678,"end":91.065,"text":"龍虎班已經從一台金霸一霸二,現在起到兩霸二那樣。所以如果用公斤算的話,那不得了了,300多塊。所以在這感謝我們的部長及我們的署長再次肯定。但是我這裡要講一個就是黑尾的事情。現在講。"},{"start":94.778,"end":101.728,"text":"各位看到,我們黑衛以前我們小的時候,我年輕的時候,我同工人,我同工孩子,我們家在做雲仔的,我們家親親在抓魚的,我不會關心"},{"start":108.844,"end":124.837,"text":"所以說我在做秀我真的是沒有辦法接受不要亂講話現在官員也不能亂講話我跟大家報告我們黑鮪魚以前都銷日本後來開始我們台灣黑鮪魚文化這個文化改變之後我們現在都內銷為主"},{"start":126.918,"end":154.405,"text":"但是我們今年WCPFC合定我們是1965噸嘛1965噸我們現在差不多多少差不多一千一千零五百到一千一左右禮拜天就是26號我小有酒的漁民跟我反映反映說怎麼會繼續還賣價值格怎麼那麼差秀一張"},{"start":158.052,"end":166.62,"text":"沒有突然說一公斤一台一公斤公斤公斤是八十塊七十塊一百塊"},{"start":168.274,"end":192.567,"text":"因為前幾天上個月在做那個黑尾文化秀的時候 一公斤是賣到一萬零三百塊所以讓大家都覺得說 哇 革命情勢一片美好啦 大家可以好 避免人家好到跪在地 再跪一天 一公斤存一千 再跪存九百、八百 滴滴落 滴滴落 那到現在還沒血本無歸啊 不然這問題是處理隊"},{"start":195.526,"end":217.701,"text":"我給委員報告,就是鮪魚開始在捕獲的時候的第一尾第二尾通常價格比較高但是相對的它過往的漁獲量,今年的漁獲量短時間的漁獲量那個尾數比較多啦那比較多的時候相對的它的價格會比較往下跑但是以現在我們看到的資料就是"},{"start":219.162,"end":244.978,"text":"委員可以分為可以是生食的生食的鮪魚那生食的鮪魚它那個價格還是維持大概300平均大概380幾大概每公斤大概這樣子那媒體所報的那個70塊它是屬於不是生食用的這些魚然後相對的是也是當天的最低價格那其實我們最擔心的就是有時候商人看到這樣的新聞他就會把前端的價格"},{"start":245.538,"end":245.758,"text":"主席,花這麼時間?"},{"start":267.987,"end":274.555,"text":" 我知道他說的就是說你黑位於一年再怎麼抓不到兩千噸接下來黃其為七萬幾噸捏 啊再來 還有"},{"start":283.393,"end":291.075,"text":"還有其他的魚種、大麥蔥、還有桂桃豆,桂桃豆也有多種的,你如果這樣產銷這麼脆弱,你是要怎麼補呢?大家也拖拖拖,漁民也貪不吃,他們的魚族、大家看什麼都不會出,魚肥不一樣,市場也不會變壞,所以那天署長我有跟你們兩個聯絡,署長說要用加強冷鏈,你們以前衝了很多冷鏈給這些魚,到底署長現在到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":313.001,"end":327.222,"text":"因為在香港的保溫,因為我們冷店正在蓋啦,大概明年或後年的部分或陸續的完工,齁這個冷店的部分。阿你起到這兩年後,這氣味,這氣味是有善盡管理之責嗎?阿是我們辦法好派?阿現在出問題阿?"},{"start":328.343,"end":351.69,"text":"絕對不會,因為現在的那個區域冷凝物流中心那裡企囊,然後在這個空裝期的部分我也請我們那個黃市長,一本先卸掉的嘛,就是一定要及時的協助萬一有問題的話,怎麼樣去調度這個冷凍庫來協助做這些...我們的黑鮪魚只有幾個港口可以拍賣嘛,因為要管制嘛,當港、新港還要去哪裡"},{"start":353.37,"end":368.029,"text":"蘇 蘇 蘇 蘇 蘇 蘇 蘇"},{"start":369.063,"end":394.76,"text":"對,兩樣問題應該是沒什麼問題啊。1900幾噸,大型的冰凍口,一斤兩斤就吃了了,吞了了。這不是說它的溫度要負0下-50度啦,不是說一般的0下-37度。所以這個部分我們有特別去找到了。一公斤一萬塊,這誤導。第二個,你的冷鏈要做好,第三個要促銷嘛。促銷你有什麼要保守嗎?你要給我們的漁民,"},{"start":396.212,"end":396.432,"text":"發言委員：蘇清泉"},{"start":426.156,"end":446.947,"text":"後續我想我會請黃昭謙次長：不信他也不會：會專門做針對這個部分去好好地去督導跟解決。好,部長要加油。好,謝謝。謝謝你。我也是會一直盯。以上。好,謝謝。也請部長將剛剛委員所提的怎麼樣促銷的方案跟委員來說明清楚。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153253","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153253","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331aa591fd2a0acb27fd0e137800dc086eaa3ee6acdf2d5e987bf08d13ba3372ad95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:34:04 - 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review），是否需要再做耐震補強要到報告出爐了才可以來評估，但是從2012年到現在多久了？十二年了！請問核安會收到台電的這份報告了嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在台電還在進行國外同行的審查。"],["張委員嘉郡：十二年了欸！這個時間都可以讀兩個博士學位、四個博士學位了，台電竟然做不出一個報告，做到核電廠都要退役光了，我們社會能夠接受一份報告要這麼久嗎？核安會的主委，你要為台電背書嗎？這份報告要十二年，你能夠接受嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：跟張委員報告，這個審查的review其實是很嚴謹、規模是很大的，它除了工程之外，還有地質……"],["張委員嘉郡：是非常嚴謹，做到核電廠全部都要退役了還做不出來！那我再問主委，安全是第一優先問題，我相信核安會也會審慎評估，很多歐美國家他們的核電廠年限都是五十年、六十年，請問核安會主委，你覺得我們現行的核電廠壽命是否可能延長？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就我的理解，所有核電廠剛開始的執照，運轉期限都是四十年。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你沒有辦法……"],["陳主任委員東陽：它必須經過延役的手續、安全的檢查。"],["張委員嘉郡：假設說包括核四，它其實沒有實際運轉過，一直都只有政府對外公布的片面消息，無法服眾，核安會是不是能夠考慮開放核四廠供媒體、專家、民意代表、一般民眾實際參觀，讓核四的狀況公開透明，讓民意再度決定核四廠是否足夠安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核四是台電的……產權在台電。"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，但您的意見呢？您建議呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我沒辦法幫台電做決定。"],["張委員嘉郡：那次長呢？假設讓核四提供專家、媒體、甚至民意代表去參觀，然後公開透明，讓大家去理解核四現在的狀態，次長同意嗎？"],["林次長全能：事實上我們過去都有安排，或者是接受大家來看，如果要我們去做這樣的評估，我想台電也願意來做這個評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：台電也OK嘛，對不對？針對這部分，我想是不是儘速來安排？目前有關於核電廠延役的問題，本席很清楚核安會跟台電主要的說法是認為核電廠內濕式貯存槽已經不敷使用，而乾式貯存槽的興建又有很多阻礙，本席在此提一個見解，你們三位專家都在這裡，就是現行核電廠貯存核廢料，有沒有可能在核四暫存？核四現在的貯存槽應該是空的吧！"],["許副總經理永輝：以目前來講，委員這個建議其實會遇到三個問題，第一個問題就是必須要管制單位同意，第二個要新北市政府同意，第三個還要當地居民同意。另外還有一個就是所有的安全分析，因為當初在核四建廠的時候並沒有所謂乾式貯存核一、核二用過的核燃料……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你們可不可以做相關的評估呢？先把評估做出來，大家才一起來想辦法克服問題嘛！因為電力的問題是影響我們國家經濟發展，甚至是人民生活品質非常重要的一環，今天三位都在，包括主委也在、次長也在，還有副總也在，是不是大家一起共同來努力解決這個問題？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.59096875,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.085968750000006,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.13221875,"end":54.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.650968750000004,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.18034375,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.28096875,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.34784375000001,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.04284375,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.16284375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.96846875,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.25034375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.39034375,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.61721875,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.46909375,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.16096875000002,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.25346875000002,"end":191.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.32096875000002,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.21596875,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.91909375,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.80471875,"end":210.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.24346875,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.50846875000002,"end":240.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.55846875,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.75159375,"end":248.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.76846875,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.85284375,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.86971875,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.97096875000003,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.67096875000001,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.19784375,"end":268.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.04784375,"end":270.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.80721875,"end":282.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.09659375,"end":310.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.59409375,"end":317.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.57596875,"end":322.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.74846875000003,"end":326.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.07721875000004,"end":325.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.08534375,"end":333.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.66659375,"end":344.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.98159375,"end":367.88909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.808,"end":10.729,"text":"主席我想請主委好我們請陳主委陳主委要不要啟用核電是經濟部的責任那管理核電廠安全呢是核安會的職責新內閣上任之後經濟部長郭志輝說核能是乾淨能源上任後一定會重新盤整國發會的主委今天喔"},{"start":34.039,"end":52.491,"text":"劉靜卿他也說不排斥重啟核能顯然我們現在整個經濟發展相關的部會都認同重啟核能先請教主委請問核安會有沒有收到指示對於核三甚至核二在研議做出砂盤推演呢沒有"},{"start":54.395,"end":75.771,"text":"沒有?完全沒有?那為什麼沒有做呢?核安會負責核能安全總不能到了事情發生了才開始做主委是不是能夠督促會內對核電延役的議題做出推演跟結論呢?那個跟張委員報告我剛才講沒有是說上面沒有交代我改變"},{"start":78.37,"end":97.534,"text":"﹗"},{"start":97.654,"end":116.479,"text":"更仔細呢因為呢我記得等一下我來就是我記得那時候12年的時候2012年和安會有要求台電做出啟動同行審查peer 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核四他其實沒有實際運轉過那一直都只有片面政府對外公佈的消息無法服眾和安會是不是能夠考慮開放核市場供媒體專家民意代表一般民眾實際參觀讓核四的狀況公開透明讓民意再度決定說核市場是否足夠安全"},{"start":242.751,"end":247.293,"text":"市長,如果假設讓核四提供專家媒體甚至民意代表去參觀然後公開透明讓大家去理解核四現在的狀態,市長同意嗎?"},{"start":271.026,"end":285.692,"text":"我們事實上過去都有安排或者是接受大家的一個這個來看那如果事實上要我們去做這樣的一個評估我想台電可以願意來做這個評估台電也OK嘛對不對所以這個我想競速是不是來安排"},{"start":286.372,"end":291.295,"text":"目前有關於核電廠延役的問題本席很清楚河安會跟台電主要的說法是認為核電廠內濕式的儲存槽已經不敷使用那乾式的儲存槽的興建又很多阻礙本席提一個見解你們三位專家都在這裡就是我們現行的核電廠純核廢料"},{"start":311.656,"end":316.815,"text":"有沒有可能在核四暫存呢?核四現在的儲存槽應該是空的吧?"},{"start":320.165,"end":342.115,"text":"目前來講委員這個建議其實會遇到三個問題第一個問題大概就是說必須要管制單位同意第二個還要新北市政府同意第三個還要當地居民同意另外還有一個就是所有的安全分析呢因為當初在核四建廠的時候呢並沒有並沒有所謂去存核一核二的乾式的這個這個"},{"start":343.035,"end":347.499,"text":"那你們可不可以做相關的評估呢先做評估出來大家才一起來想辦法克服問題嘛因為電力的問題是影響我們國家經濟發展甚至我們國家人民生活品質非常重要的一環所以也希望今天三位這個主委也在次長也在還有副總也在是不是大家一起共同來努力解決這個問題謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331c4044e840e89e11fd0e137800dc086eaa3ee6acdf2d5e9878ff9a8166b34d53e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:33:49 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11:33:45","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:33:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:23:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時24分）謝謝主席。請邀請陳主委，還有經濟部林次長。"],["主席：好，我們請主委跟次長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：羅委員好。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委、次長，謝謝。我想大家都很關心核能，剛剛也有討論到所謂核廢料的處置，但我還是要講另外一個層面的問題，現階段就兩位知道的，國人現在所謂的十大癌症大概是哪幾個癌症？大概就好，沒關係，這沒有要考試。"],["林次長全能：我想胃癌、大腸癌、肺腺癌這些，可能都是我們現在……"],["羅委員廷瑋：前三名有肺癌，大家都認同。很多人都知道，平均每兩個人就有一個人肺癌，發現的時候幾乎都是晚期，尤其是肺腺癌，我自己也有親友得過肺腺癌。近年來抽菸人口不斷下降，但肺癌的罹患率並沒有降低，這個是有相關數據支撐，有多數被發現的肺癌患者是不抽菸的，那我們就很納悶，沒有抽菸，可能有基因問題；沒有基因問題，也有可能是所謂的空氣污染問題，所以針對臺中在面對火力全開的中火，我們更想要探討，是不是有相關配套方式可以舒緩現階段臺中的困境、中部五縣市的困境，亦即空氣污染的一個困境？","根據經濟部2021年結算的資料，臺灣電力83%來自於火力發電，其中燃料以天然氣、燃煤為主，燃煤占火力發電的比率，2021年占53%，燃氣供電占45%，換算下來，臺灣發電約37%依賴天然氣。臺灣天然氣主要來源國是卡達、印尼、馬來西亞，但臺灣是海島型國家，如果遇到颱風侵襲導致船期延誤，甚至是最近中國大陸開始進行的軍演，我們非常嚴厲的譴責，我們不想要看到這樣的狀況一再發生。當然，作為民意代表，我們只能譴責，我們更呼籲國防部要捍衛中華民國，但是我想請問一下，目前天然氣大概只有10到14天的安全存量，未來假設遇到天然氣被封鎖，怎麼辦？目前有沒有準備備援措施？"],["林次長全能：我們現在有訂定安全存量，目前是11天，但是未來還會再增加到14天。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，就是我剛剛講的10到14天。"],["林次長全能：是，就是我們現在要增加安全存量，也在提升現在的接收站跟儲槽能量，讓儲存量可以到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，讓儲存能量從10到14天變成10到18天，或者是10到20天，這是你們的目標，對吧？"],["林次長全能：呃，當然提高安全存量是一件事情，另外一件事情就是我們必須尋找綠色通道，能夠在緊急、危急的時候有適當的部分來做相關輸運。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你是說綠能補上，是嗎？"],["林次長全能：呃，如果以2050淨零碳排的發展來看，未來2050的再生能源占比會到60%-70%，確實是會增加我們綠能的發展。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，看起來就是沒有很具體的備援措施，因為不管10到14天或是10到20天，如果天然氣被封鎖到將近20天，我們還是無解，我想這個問題絕對不是我第一次詢問，也不是我這個立法委員的發現，很多立委都關心這個問題，我想經濟部應該要好好考量。","淨零碳排是我國最重要的一個政策，目前因俄烏戰爭導致天然氣供需失衡，許多國家包括美、英、日、加拿大等紛紛考慮重啟核電，國際將綠能政策分為兩塊，一個是再生能源搭配天然氣，另一個是可再生能源搭配核電。國際能源總署也指出，為達成全球淨零碳排，未來20年核電的規模將擴大接近一倍，以上的數據對吧？你有掌握到這樣的數據嗎？"],["林次長全能：我剛剛在報告裡有提到，未來核電占比在2031年到2050年大概是10%跟8%左右，委員的資訊，我想我們會再做更進一步的掌握。"],["羅委員廷瑋：相關媒體的報導我們僅供參考，但是教學相長，我們希望的就是臺灣更好，但是我想前面很多委員應該都有問過，你們有沒有重新評估臺灣能源政策的配比？這是最重要的一個議題，但我沒有要你現在馬上回答我，好好的考量。國際對反核的態度突然轉變，可以從阿聯酋共識中看到各國對核能的清楚表態，阿聯酋共識提到加速零碳排及低碳排的技術，包含再生能源、核能、碳減少的移除科技，如碳捕捉、利用及封存，另外包括我們的一些單位也在研究低碳氫能的生產用於能源系統中，加大力度取代碳排的化石燃料。核安會主委有聽出端倪嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有嗎？加速零碳排及低碳排的技術，其中包含的就是核能。另外，芬蘭的氣候環境部長在這一次的會議中也有提到，如果要讓地球增溫控制在1.5℃以內，不提升核能的地位是做不到的，你認同他這句話嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：跟委員說明，我的報告裡其實有詳述這兩個區塊的一些論述，針對各個能源，各個國家都有自身的考量，這個部分我想是國家的能源政策，它是一種選擇。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想每一個能源政策都有它的利與弊，但是我們不要輕重於任何一個能源，這應該是你可以認同的吧？就是各個能源都要有一些相關部署，雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子。","另外，22個大國，包括美、日、韓都簽署了2050年前增加核能到三倍，請問主委，臺灣的政策，目前還在非核家園嗎？依照國際局勢，臺灣現在要如何非核？淨零碳排又該如何完成？主委、經濟部次長，請問能夠回答嗎？"],["林次長全能：事實上，既然有相關規範，我們就必須按照規範處理，至於未來2050年的淨零碳排，我們也做好相關努力的藍圖，我剛剛也提到，未來2050的時候，我們希望做到再生能源占比60%-70%，火力電廠會加裝CCUS做碳中和，另外一個部分就是9%-12%的氫能會來做努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就次長瞭解，2025年的能源轉型，有達到當時蔡英文所提出的目標嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們推估2025年再生能源的發電占比應該會達到15%以上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，當時他設定……"],["林次長全能：但是設置量會完成，所以可能會在2026年達到20%的發電量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當時他所設定的目標，你還記得嗎？"],["林次長全能：我知道，我們積極在努力，希望能夠做到，但是看起來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：積極的努力，希望能夠做到，但看起來就是還有一段距離，對不對？"],["林次長全能：會有一點點延誤……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們沒有要攻擊，沒有要批評，我們就數據上來看，積極努力、儘量去達到，而我問的問題是目前就是沒有達到，還有一段距離，對不對？那我們可以再努力嘛！但這個時候你又告訴我2050又有新目標，那我們就必須先打一個大大的問號，這不是刁難，而是希望透過我們的監督，更加督促經濟部趕緊把前面的承諾達成，然後針對後面的承諾再開支票。"],["林次長全能：是，我們願意這樣來做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。最近對岸有成立一個山東石島灣核電廠，你們有掌握嗎？好，請台電。"],["許副總經理永輝：那個是高溫氣冷式的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：高溫氣冷式，對吧？"],["許副總經理永輝：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想和主委分享一下，其實臺灣早就有類似的報告，臺灣在2016年率隊出國參加第二十屆太平洋盆地國際核能會議，出國的報告中清楚指出，高溫氣冷式的反應爐燃料在失去冷卻劑後，表面最高溫度可遠低於安全限值的1620℃，報告的結論提到，基本上排除了爐心熔毀相關事故的可能性，具有非能動的安全特性，說是安全的核能也不為過。主委，高溫氣冷式反應爐在理論上被驗證可行，目前已經有商轉潛力，是否能成為未來淨零碳排上一個努力目標的選項？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我還要去瞭解，我會找機會看一下這個報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這是我們先掌握的相關資料，會後如果有任何興趣，我們可以再一起相互討論。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位、謝謝羅委員。","接下來賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.712843750000001,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.42909375,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.141593750000002,"end":38.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.98221875,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.39534375,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.03596875,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.06846875000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.24971875,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.49846875,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.38846875,"end":89.53596875000001},{"spe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3%來自於火力發電其中燃料以天然氣燃煤為主"},{"start":124.088,"end":130.295,"text":"藍媒戰火力發電2021年53%藍氣供電比45%換算下來臺灣發電約37%依賴天然氣臺灣的天然氣主要來源國是卡達印尼馬來西亞臺灣是海島型國家如果遇到了颱風驚襲導致傳奇的沿墮甚至是最近中國大陸開始進行的軍演"},{"start":146.912,"end":166.804,"text":"我們非常嚴厲的譴責我們不想要看到這樣的狀況一再發生當然作為民意代表我們只能譴責我們更呼籲國防部要捍衛中華民國但是我們想請問一下目前天然氣大概只有10到14天的安全存量未來假設遇到天然氣被封鎖怎麼辦目前有沒有準備備援的措施"},{"start":170.177,"end":194.739,"text":"我們現在是有定定安全存量那目前是11天但是未來我們還會再增加到14天是對就剛剛我講的10到14天是那這個是我們現在要增加安全存量那我們現在也在提升我們現在的一個這個接收站跟我們的一個除草對所以你打算把10到14天變成10到18天或者是10到20天你的目標對吧"},{"start":196.209,"end":196.789,"text":"所以是說綠能補上是嗎?"},{"start":212.484,"end":237.259,"text":"如果以我們2050的一個淨零碳排的一個這個發展來看我們未來在2050的一個再生能源會佔比到60到70%確實是會來增加我們綠能的一個這個發展好那看起來就是沒有很具體的備援措施因為10到14天不管10到20天那它如果安全封鎖它如果天然氣的封鎖到將近20天我們還是無解所以我想這個部分"},{"start":237.859,"end":253.969,"text":"我想這絕對不是我第一次詢問也不是我這個立法委員發現很多的立委都在關心我想經濟部應該好好考量這個問題而淨零排放是我國最重要的一個政策目前惡霧戰爭的狀況導致天然氣供需失衡許多國家包括美英日加拿大等國"},{"start":255.39,"end":277.353,"text":"分分考慮重啟核電．國際將綠能政策分為兩塊．一個是再生能源搭配天然氣．另一個是可再生能源搭配核電．國際能源總署．也指出會達成全球淨台．淨零碳排．未來20年核電的規模將擴大接近一倍以上的數據對吧你有掌握到這樣的數據嗎"},{"start":279.414,"end":307.107,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面有提到說未來的一個核電的占比在2030年到2050年整個發電占比大概是10%跟8%左右那委員的資訊我想我們會再做更進一步的一個掌握我想相關媒體的報導我們僅供參考但是教學相長我們希望就是台灣更好但是我想很多的前面的委員應該有問過有沒有重新評估台灣的能源政策的一個配比這是我們最重要的一個議題"},{"start":308.208,"end":334.347,"text":"但我沒有要你現在馬上回答我好好地考量但國際對反核的態度突然的轉變可以從這個阿聯酋共識各國對核能的表態看得很清楚阿聯酋共識有提到加速零碳排及低碳排的一個技術包含再生能源核能碳減少的一種科技如碳捕捉利用及封存我想包括我們一些單位也在研究"},{"start":334.887,"end":335.307,"text":"提出端倪"},{"start":346.243,"end":364.552,"text":"有嗎加速零碳排及低碳排的一個技術其中包含的就是核能另外芬蘭的氣候環境部長在這一次的會議中也有提到如果要讓地球增溫控制在1.5度C以內不提升核能的地位是做不到的您認同他這句話嗎"},{"start":365.877,"end":383.159,"text":"跟委員講那個我的報告裡面其實有詳述了這兩個區塊的一些論述那麼其實各個能源各個國家他都有自身的考量那麼這個部分我想是國家的能源政策他是一種選擇"},{"start":385.361,"end":400.067,"text":"我想每一個能源政策都有它的利與弊但是我們不要輕重於任何一個能源這應該是你可以認同的吧而是各個都有一些相關的部署雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子"},{"start":401.127,"end":418.138,"text":"那另外22個大國包括美日韓都簽署了2050年前增加核能到3倍請問主委我們台灣的政策目前還在非核災源嗎依照國際的局勢台灣現在如何非核淨零碳排又該如何完成主委經濟部長次長請問能夠回答嗎"},{"start":424.73,"end":424.89,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":439.91,"end":441.891,"text":"就次長了解2025年的這個能源轉型有達到當時蔡英文所提出的目標嗎?"},{"start":457.479,"end":477.614,"text":"我們推估2022我們再生能源的發電佔比應該會達到15%以上那但是設置量設置量是會完成那我們可能會在2026年達到20%的這個發電點那當時他所設定的目標你還記得嗎我知道我們積極的努力希望能夠做到但是看起來積極的努力希望能夠做到但看起來就是還有一段距離嗎"},{"start":479.455,"end":493.52,"text":"我們沒有要攻擊沒有要批評我們就數據上來看嘛積極的努力盡量去達到我問的問題就是目前就是沒有達到還有一段距離嘛對不對那我們可以再努力嘛所以"},{"start":493.86,"end":495.981,"text":"最近對岸有成立了一個山東石島灣核電廠你們有掌握嗎好台電"},{"start":526.987,"end":545.721,"text":"我想和主委分享一下其實台灣早就有類似這樣的報告台灣在2016年率隊出國參加第20屆的太平洋盆地國際核能會議當中出國的報告清楚指出高溫氣冷式的反應爐燃料在失去冷卻劑後表面最高溫度可遠低於安全值"},{"start":546.101,"end":546.141,"text":"主委．"},{"start":573.518,"end":583.551,"text":"這個部分我還要去了解一下我找機會來看一下這個報告好這是我們先掌握相關資料我想會後如果有任何的興趣我們可以再一起相互討論好謝謝你謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331779406be36b470056bfa9387d0b459bda3ee6acdf2d5e98783f04fb2ac1014a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:25:36 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成吳主委這到底發生了怎麼回事怎麼其他的地方都調得到就是高雄市政府他不會給那這三個標案的內容這個不是我捏造出來的在網路上面可以看到招標得標基本上面的須知"},{"start":156.934,"end":169.85,"text":"吳主委說他會去溝通那你們在業務交接的時候吳主委有沒有告訴你說現在溝通到什麼地方了跟委員報告我個人一直沒有跟吳主委做任何"},{"start":170.97,"end":195.516,"text":"的交接不過這個案子會內曾經有做說明關於委員需要的資料工程會都會按照委員會的指示去函這個透過發函的方式讓各機關瞭解委員需要的資料至於這個高雄市政府相關機關的部分我會進一步再來瞭解"},{"start":196.041,"end":220.678,"text":"是不是可以拜託一下啦因為陳主委你之前也在高雄市政府任職過嘛應該跟陳其邁市長也是熟識嘛我們現在這不是在談個人關係的問題啊我們公事公辦嘛從2月開始要喔要到現在5月要結束了都還要不到還需要多久的時間主委你可以去溝通一下嗎"},{"start":223.151,"end":250.011,"text":"跟委員報告 那麼我會後會瞭解整個相關狀況 那麼做若干的處理啦 錯 如果高雄市政府不給 那就回一個公文不給嘛 上面就寫不給的理由嘛 要了這麼久也不回應 其他機關都給了 只有高雄市政府不給 會讓人覺得很奇怪啊 那裡面是有什麼貓膩嗎 要了三個月都不給 可以這樣嗎"},{"start":252.335,"end":258.278,"text":"主委您去了解需要多久的時間?我的問題是您需要多久時間?還要再三個月嗎?這個沒有辦法來"},{"start":279.27,"end":302.008,"text":"來跟你報告說多少時間我們竟在法律授權之內那麼透過我們工程會相關的這個雖然齁是地方政府的標案但為什麼跟工程會有關係這有牽涉到專案的法規啊我為什麼這樣講因為給綜藝課的那些標案啊我一個一個去調調完了我實事求是啊台電有問題的我在經濟委員會我已經問過了"},{"start":306.072,"end":328.295,"text":"我調出來屏東縣政府有問題的裡面針對屏東縣政府網路行銷的合作案來看一下內容內容是潘孟安以41.6的支持度大幅領先對手這個是在行銷屏東縣政府還是在行銷潘孟安啊可以拿納稅的錢"},{"start":330.27,"end":350.349,"text":"去買媒體選舉的時候幫自己宣傳自己的支持度大幅領先對手政府的標準是拿來做這種事嗎我上次問吳哲成主委的時候啊他表情很凝重啊說這種事情不應該發生吳主委講得很好"},{"start":351.769,"end":380.481,"text":"因為他知道他的職責公共工程委員會這種事情就要把關執行政府的法令嘛為什麼我說要去執行政府的法令還不是只有潘孟安欸包括你們現在的副主委李一德那個時候任職屏東縣政府的時候一樣啊當行政首長個人擦肢抹粉納稅人的錢可以這樣花喔那為什麼敢說這樣的話來看一下"},{"start":382.079,"end":399.023,"text":"有一個重要的法規政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項辦理政策宣導不得以下列方式置入性行銷方式進行採購媒體的時候可以做首長自我宣傳嗎來看一下請出位"},{"start":405.001,"end":427.811,"text":"我想針對個案我們正在工程會的立場大概是針對政府採購是否符合政府採購法的規定那麼他履約的過程有沒有按照契約來執行那委員關心的 這個不是契約啊這個是我們中央政府所頒布的行政命令啊這個不是契約啊這是法規啊"},{"start":432.284,"end":458.403,"text":"如果各個政府在辦標案的時候把中央政府所頒布的法規當成空氣啊你說不行我照幹我照幹也不會有任何法律效果那這樣中央政府的法規要如何的實踐這是我的問題啊主委你覺得當地方政府無視中央的法規"},{"start":460.066,"end":466.794,"text":"用納稅人的錢還執意這樣去幹的時候這個時候中央政府應該要採取什麼樣的立場跟作為"},{"start":469.353,"end":495.306,"text":"來請主委簡單的說明包括國務委員我們現在已經走過兩分半鐘所以這個主管機關跟工程會沒有關係我們站在這個機關不宜去在這裡不宜去解釋其他機關的法規那相關機關它有上級機關我想我們誠懇的跟國務委員報告你要求的資料我們會透過協商那麼依法在法律規定之內那麼請高雄市政府來"},{"start":495.666,"end":495.887,"text":"謝謝黃委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"153248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331668ee14da1a628ff6bfa9387d0b459bda3ee6acdf2d5e987efefbe895a7a543e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:10:43 - 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是因為最重要的功能是要依公平還有公開的政府採購程序那採購的效率還有功能以確保採購的品質我要以今年4月為例公共工程委員會這邊有被踢爆的警用背心瑕疵的採購案警政組雖然有解釋招標程序都符合規定但是採購品質不佳是事實恐怕會造成危害員警的安全那工程會這邊有沒有去檢討過去的採購法還有流程"},{"start":340.1,"end":367.809,"text":"各位我請相關主管來說明跟委員報告有關於防彈衣的採購這個部分那因為委員去年之前有指導所以我們有發文給防彈衣的採購機關從源頭的招絕標的策略還有旅業管理包括要用樣本的方式去做確認旅業品質這些等等我們有一套機制給各機關去處理"},{"start":369.502,"end":396.788,"text":"那有沒有檢討招標審核過程中有問題呢?報告這個就是我們因為原來是用最低標所以我們建議他用最有利標然後讓他選好的廠商那這後續的責任還有歸屬怎麼去做審核跟檢討?後續的責任因為這個是招標機關和招標機關的上級他們會去檢討他們的責任那我們主要是避免以後再發生這種事情"},{"start":397.533,"end":397.715,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331b53b8354be009c0f243e47098157e4f6a3ee6acdf2d5e987afd2c0ee9bd3f0fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:27:11 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那這個部分我想我們辦公室也很樂意協助農業部跟教育部跨部會的溝通會議好不好"},{"start":171.88,"end":191.067,"text":"接下來下一個部分要跟農業部請教其實我們一直在跟農業部談關於地方創生遇到這個食材處理的問題那我們今天就以零下經濟的作物為例那其實農業部呢從2019年4月就開始推動零下經濟而且陸續開放在地特色作物可以做成相關的產品"},{"start":191.747,"end":191.867,"text":"瞭解"},{"start":213.237,"end":225.581,"text":"我們就不再多說下一頁可是我們也我們辦公室自己也跟食藥署開過會議了確實在這個平台上只要遇到食品原料整合查詢平台就會出現相關問題我時間有限我想是不是就拜託農業部接下來我們繼續花力氣跟食業跟食藥署溝通跟衛福部溝通協助農業部想要推廣這些零下經濟的作物一旦日後開發成產品或是相關餐廳的菜色他不會遇到再次被檢舉再次被開罰的問題"},{"start":243.558,"end":261.586,"text":"我想我們一定會積極的跟衛福部溝通但是那個溝通非常不順利我很坦白講因為他要的就是我要舉證安全性那任何一個產品的安全性一做就是兩年但是很多國外的文獻有沒有其實它已經可以使用了"},{"start":262.406,"end":281.321,"text":"這個不只是零價經濟喔 很多原住民的傳統食材也遇到這樣的問題 所以我們 我想我會跟新的衛福部的部長或是相關的同仁 我們再積極的去協商有沒有什麼樣的方法 要符合安全 符合衛福部的規定 但是也會讓我們的那個期間會加快"},{"start":282.026,"end":302.78,"text":"對,因為我不好意思主席再給我30秒意思就是說相信部長我非常認同部長您剛剛願意開誠布公的說確實有很大溝通上的困難可是我們絕對要贊許農業部願意開發零下經濟或是相關的這些產業文化的推進協助農民可是遇到跟食藥署這邊的溝通我們當然認同食安食安非常非常重要"},{"start":303.2,"end":324.231,"text":"所以如果你們在跟衛福部這邊跨部會溝通有問題我想我們辦公室也願意積極的協助甚至是不是我們有機會召開公聽會或是座談會大家一起坐下來好好想個辦法到底如何確保食人、國人的食安但是又可以促進零下經濟相關產業的發展好不好好非常謝謝委員我們接下來時間有限但是我們就一起努力好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331cc1ca99b9be1d0e7243e47098157e4f6a3ee6acdf2d5e9874880165fef5440885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:19:22 - 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請陳部長我們再請陳部長大家好"},{"start":19.434,"end":41.173,"text":"部長恭喜你520之後你正式成為蔡政府的首位農業部長那本席也期許你會來對我們提升我們臺灣農業的這個競爭力有所貢獻那在521的時候你特別也有召開我們農業政策的這個願景的一個記者會你特別提到就是"},{"start":42.074,"end":64.21,"text":"我們的整個農業的發展在農業發展條例的你還要發展我們農業的基本法那農業的基本法在2011年的時候那時候就已經有送行政院這個草案了那但是經過了這個13年你現在提出來了這個基本法那這個基本法跟我們的農業的這個發展條例有什麼不一樣呢"},{"start":64.73,"end":77.723,"text":"我想第一個要跟委員說明的就是農業的基本法最近一次提示在108年提到行政院那行政院那時候是說希望有更多的一個溝通那第二個部分就是"},{"start":79.681,"end":107.623,"text":"農業現在農業發展條例有許多他是牽扯到有點作用法的部分有一部分是作用法但是農業基本法他是一個比較上位的綱領性的政策的法案他最重要就是撥劃我們整個臺灣農業的未來的一個方向那有了這個方向以後後面的每4年的中期計畫就能夠follow這樣的一個政策去做滾動的檢討然後配套的法案也可以因為這個上位的基本法有的時候"},{"start":108.303,"end":127.675,"text":"所以部長這個基本法跟這個發展條例的位階可能就是不太一樣一個是執行方面一個是宣誓方面所以我看到可能會比較多的一些文字那在這個細節的部分應該要有一個專案再把它說清楚這樣子會比較明瞭對我們後續我想農業基本法基本上過去在108年討論了幾個議題那經過了5年其實有更多的新的議題必須去融入的"},{"start":137.341,"end":162.846,"text":"那這個部分我想我們一定會在盡快的最短的時間之內重新去整理完了以後然後對外去做一些說明然後跟農業基本法所以應該就是用我們的專法來處理讓很多的方向會更加的明確讓大家更加的明瞭好不好我們期許這兩個是不一樣的不然的話我們農業的發展條例就等於是退場就不需要了用基本法是不是"},{"start":163.226,"end":168.328,"text":"不是,一個是上位的政策,一個是作用法我會把它講清楚現在我們要講的就是我們的農業人口的老化這個問題你看從2018年到2023年一直逐漸的減少整個排名在工作上為什麼這個會減少"},{"start":184.275,"end":209.002,"text":"﹗"},{"start":209.342,"end":233.684,"text":"主委你本身也是在我們基層起來應該都很了解在農業的工作上很多會老年化就是因為年輕人不要做那年輕人來做的話我們現在年輕人都是比較數位啊有智慧啊或比較精緻化對不對那這就是要借重於我們的機器啊比如我們的機具啊農耕的機具在這方面的話是不是你在這方面有特別的一個補助方案呢"},{"start":234.204,"end":258.741,"text":"我想我們一定會有一些特別的政策誘因那很重要的一個就是我們也調查了很多現在的青年人會回鄉有一大部分的原因是家中有他的年紀比較長的所以我怎麼樣讓年輕人進來其實農村的支持系統是很重要的我不要讓青年人只進來只是去種田"},{"start":259.462,"end":280.606,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":280.686,"end":284.889,"text":"所以主委要針對這方面來加強好不好?一定的補助、誘因給他們尤其是他們現在要精緻化很多的收割比如是撒農藥啦或是收割的時候也可以用機器的部分這就要補助他們農機具的部分對農機具的部分我想我們會透過這種農事服務業或是大的集團產權去處理"},{"start":299.48,"end":324.747,"text":"像我們桃園就已經有青農團了,他們就有代工了,有青農團,所以這方面請主委再更加的深化,更加的去努力來輔導他們,讓他們能夠青年能夠返鄉耕農,也能讓青農能夠有所發展,穩定的收入是非常的重要接下來想討論就是,主委特別有提到這個漁電共生,漁電共生最主要是地主"},{"start":325.735,"end":352.885,"text":"還有太陽能的這個產業還有一個就是養殖業對不對是那我們現在看到我們的整個條例裡面的發展地主跟養殖業必須他們都是有是租地的問題對不對那如果說養殖業會不會被犧牲的問題這就很重要因為如果說地主要把這個土地租給這個光電的這個產業的話那養殖業他如果不簽約他不同意的話他"},{"start":354.005,"end":368.314,"text":"就會被犧牲掉了是不是這樣子?我想其實您講得非常對就是現在光電業者有一個關卡就是光電業者、養殖業者跟地主之間的認同跟他的一個意願"},{"start":369.435,"end":386.616,"text":"所以我們有一些相關的規範指引在做這個部分第二個部分更重要就是說我們也擔心就是說光電業者一開始說我要種我會種什麼種什麼講得很漂亮可是當你光電一送電以後他就不理他了所以我們有後面的這些集合的團隊"},{"start":389.119,"end":389.88,"text":"我們現在有一個比較好的一個一個輔導團隊去做一個我們有一個檢核表齁"},{"start":404.921,"end":404.941,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":423.968,"end":447.054,"text":"而不是一對一,現在都是一對一那一對一的困難度會比較高那未來如果說光電板下的這些餘溫能夠用集團經營、共同經營的方式那相對我覺得是一個雙贏的政策所以主委我本期要提醒就是你要重視到這個養殖業的工作權你現在今天講的是餘電共生你這個共生不能名存實亡"},{"start":447.814,"end":447.834,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13310ebd43ea06de118edb3ca66b34e87331a3ee6acdf2d5e9879fa06f7c1a6a5e135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:13:44 - 11:26:53","影片長度":"00:13:09","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":789,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":27,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-27"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:26:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:13:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請部長，也請秘書長一起好嗎？"],["主席：請部長、秘書長上臺。"],["吳委員思瑤：我先就教今天比較hot issue，大家都在follow的問題，王義川今天成了我們司法及法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物。我想問一下部長，現在坊間常常使用手機來精算，也就是大數據的演算，能夠將大數據的方式用在商業上，可以針對不同活動的人流來進行分析，這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data，您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有那麼清楚。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們要瞭解。當然，王義川在節目上所說的事情，他的資訊從哪裡來，我無從得知，我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方。但是我想請問，如果手機定位的內容是去識別化的，去識別化後再來進行各種分析、商業使用或是其他學術研究使用的話，去識別化的資料有涉及個資嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所謂個人資料一定是指自然人嘛……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：自然人的個資，手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍，它去識別化，我想這個是不是可以屬於個資法的合理使用，這是一個合理使用的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。你們的答復要再精確一點，否則跟其他委員詢答的過程不夠嚴謹可能就被剪成抖音，就被用來以訛傳訛，說法務部長認為這樣就是涉及個資。剛剛就在今天的內政委員會，內政部部長劉世芳的詢答，他說現在在臺北縣市的警局，或是內政部也有一些人口戶政在使用的相關資料，只要是去識別化，並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題，這是內政部部長劉世芳所說的。我再給你一次機會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確個資法有保障個人資料，因為不是使用個人資料就是違法……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是在保障，只是說有些禁止違法使用的部分，當然有一些罰則，但是它最主要還是要促進個人資料的合理使用，同時也要兼顧隱私權的保障。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們可以讓真理越辯越明。當然王義川也多次地清楚澄清跟說明，並非單一政黨有此能力而且使用這個系統，來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論，我想當事人已經做出清楚的澄清跟說明。剛剛我們的吳宗憲召委說他個人要去告發王義川，我也尊重，但是如果要告發的話，可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發，一併連盧秀燕也一起告發，因為這些地方政府也都使用這個big data去從事相關的、必要的、合理的使用，這是我的看法。","第二個，我也看到在野黨的黃國昌委員今天，在昨天立法院職權行使法等國會擴權的法案剛通過，還不到10小時，這個法律還沒有正式被頒布，被總統公布，居然黃國昌也說要針對王義川，鎖定他成為第一個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人。我想這就是先射箭再畫靶，這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛，所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權，包括傅崐萁總召昨天說的，一完成立法，他就喜孜孜的、得意洋洋的對媒體說，我們要成立在野的國會特偵組。天啊！整肅異己的時代又來了，這個法律剛剛通過還不到幾小時。我也可以在這裡大膽的預測，王義川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人，下一個可能是李正皓，第三個可能是于北辰，接下來黃世聰以及劉寶傑，5位可能都有機會。您知道我為什麼點名這5位嗎？因為這5位是常常在電視上評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴，或是政治評論家，就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公布的懲戒名單裡頭。所以這樣的修法，這樣一個裡應外合的國會特偵組，國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立、一權獨大。","剛剛召委說我們成了一權國家，其實這個一權國家，獨大的是立法院。昨天通過的這些國會擴權的惡法，就會形成臺灣只剩下一個立法權，它可以凌駕行政權，它可以凌駕監察權，可以凌駕司法權。所以，我要再次說，請大家要自制，一個法律還沒有上路，連三讀的文字都「離離落落」，還有一堆文字的缺漏，扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾，居然就說要鎖定王義川，要叫來成為國會第一個被問話、被問訊的人，這就是在野黨遂行政治肅殺的政治目的，不是嗎？不演了，完全不演了。","我是覺得很遺憾，司法院秘書長也在這裡，在這個法律二、三讀通過之後，監察院很快就公布了一個聲明的新聞稿，監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重傷害了監察權，違反憲法規定的院際之間、憲法機關之間的權力分立原則。其實，同樣的，我們在座的兩位、在台上的兩位，司法權也是被剝奪了一部分，國會、立委都急切地想要成為法官及檢察官。既然監察院有這樣的一個statement，我在這裡也不為難秘書長，原本我是想秘書長也應當有司法院的立場、說法才對，但我想你在這裡講的每一句話可能都會被無限擴大，畢竟未來釋憲的憲法法庭也是需要更公正、超然的客觀立場。","我要再次藉由我的質詢時間與國人同胞分享我的觀點，也就是說，先上車後補票、先開刀再麻醉，就是現在的狀況。在野黨先修法，讓自己在國會擴了權，取代了監察權、取代了司法權，然後再說下一步要廢考監、要修憲。民進黨早就在這個場域、司法及法制委員會，我講了N次、我講了N次，如果要修憲就修憲，不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲，在野黨現在是整個顛倒，先修法讓國會擴權，然後回過來說我們現在要推動廢監察院的修憲案，這就是先上車再補票啊！這就是醫生先幫你開了刀再來麻醉啊！秘書長，我的說法正確嗎？就憲政分立的原則，可以先擴大立法的權限再說要廢掉監察院嗎？這是監察院昨天的聲明中清楚闡述的立場，秘書長，你應當可以針對這個問題簡單的回答吧？該修憲是不是就修憲，絕對不能先修法之後再回頭去修憲，先上車後補票？這是很簡單的問題，藐視國會罪還未經過總統公告，你不用害怕，就回答，據實以答，沒有關係！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為多元的社會，我們尊重委員的說法。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以尊重立法委員胡說八道、尊重立法委員胡亂修法，這就是藐視國會罪最嚴重的地方。翁曉玲委員說的上對下的關係，我要告訴大家，它應驗了！翁曉玲說的上對下的關係在這次國會擴權的修法中完全應驗了，因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答，將國情報告改為常態化，這就是太上立院。上對下，民選總統是擁有最高民意基礎的總統，立法院可以這樣對待他！第二個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣荒誕制度的設計，讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲，每一個人都成為乖乖牌，每一個人不敢言所當言、為所當為，真的成為質詢就是上對下，因為有藐視國會罪，你們都不敢講話了啦！大家都變成啞巴了啦！第三個上對下就是最殘暴的，一個太上國會可以把人民動輒叫來立法院，要你提供資料就提供資料，要你來問話就問話，把人民的人權踩在腳底，這就是上對下。翁曉玲說的都靈驗了、都應驗了。","剛剛吳宗憲召委說，如果王義川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法，那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料，而且要來這裡應訊、問話，連找律師都要主席同意，個人資料保護法耶！吳忠憲，你敢說啊！你們這種違憲亂政的修法，有把個人資料保護法、有把人權放在眼裡嗎？如果你們認為王義川的言論如此不可，當然我也認為王義川講的話不夠精準，但是，如果要用同樣的標準，一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱成為侵害人權、違反個資，那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案，把人民叫來立法院、必須提供一切的資料，這樣沒有侵害人權嗎？","實在很抱歉！今天我其實準備了很多主題，只好下一次再針對司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位，但是我們站在這裡，處於這個憲政時刻，我們都要非常嚴肅的去面對。我也認為不要因為有了藐視國會罪，大家就不敢講話，這是反民主。你們有你們的法學專業，絕對在我吳思瑤的百倍千倍以上，但是針對基本憲政精神該有的捍衛、對於司法獨立的捍衛、對於人權的捍衛，我們都要繼續言所當言、為所當為，否則，一個不敢講話的國會殿堂，這是什麼民主？只有立委可以在這裡無的放矢，官員不能表述，我認為這是民主倒退的一刻。","我在這裡還是要期勉大家，民主進步黨會針對藐視國會罪提出釋憲案，我們也很有把握，希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的判決。憲法會保護每一個良善的中華民國國民，憲法會保護每一個持善念走正道的臺灣人，對於這些擴權違憲的法案，我們就拭目以待，好不好？我們繼續加油！謝謝主席、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。關於王義川的部分，我還是很中立的概念、我還是很中立啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：你一起告發侯友宜啦！去告發啦！"],["主席：我還是很中立的，希望藉由這個方式讓民眾釋疑。剛剛我講得很清楚，可能是因為吳思瑤委員還沒進來。我認為在不同場域的分析比較與人流的控管，其實這個在層次上、在個資上有不同的層次，但我從頭到尾也沒說希望用與國會有關的調查權或什麼聽證權等等，我都沒有提這個，反而是很持平的表示，既然已經造成社會上的懷疑，那就由一個公正第三方的檢方去調查。而且我剛剛也說了，我也希望查出來後發現原來是一個誤會，這是對的，而且能夠讓國人釋疑。我覺得我將我的立場說得很清楚，也不想讓這件事情變成是政治的攻擊。就像我剛剛提到的，光是裝了GPS就讓海巡署的人員被法院判刑，因為藉由GPS就能知道你的定位。如果國家或電信公司可以透過手機定位把我的一些相關資料賣給第三方或透露給第三方，而且是沒有法律依據的時候，我覺得我今天是要了解這件事，而且是希望由公正第三方的檢方出來調查，而不是由我們自己去調查，甚至主觀的認為是怎麼樣，我想我還是很持平的看待每一件事情。","當然我也非常期望檢方調查後發現其實沒有問題，王先生的每一個作為都是合法的，讓我們國人都能夠安心，心裡也能得到安慰，自己的資料並沒有被拿去濫用，我也很希望得到的是這樣的結論，所以今天我是很持平的看待這件事情。如果有人想要把我的話再次扭曲，其實我來這裡之後已經很習慣了，在這裡所說的話都會被扭曲，如果還是有人希望把我的話拿去扭曲，我也就尊重每個人的發言。但我要在這裡再次說明，今天之所以要由檢方出來調查，就是希望由一個公正的第三方來告訴我，因為我也是使用手機的其中一個人，對我而言，這個也是令我擔心的事情、也是全國二千多萬人擔心的事情。由檢方出來，我們很信任檢方，如果檢方能夠釋疑，告訴我們並沒有問題，或是我們發現哪個地方的法制有漏洞，我們就把那個地方再補起來，其實這樣做才會對國家有幫助，而不是在那邊口水戰，你來我去的這樣吵。","我想這個與各縣市政府處理公共活動時的人流控管在程度上有非常大的不同，剛剛我已經說過了，不同場域的分析其實有一點問題，所以我才會提出剛才那個想法。當然我也祝福王先生，在檢方了解之後發現其實是沒有問題的，我也很希望王先生最後是這樣的結論。在此我並沒有預設任何立場，我只是希望讓國人釋疑，這是政治人物以及政府的責任，謝謝各位。","今天所有發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料以及書面答復，請將相關資料盡速送交個別委員及本委員會。另有委員翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 暫行安\n置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.650343750000001,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.03784375,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.67409375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.617843750000006,"end":53.946593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.929718750000006,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.414718750000006,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":88.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.97909375,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.13346875,"end":100.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.70159375,"end":145.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.15596875000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.27409375,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.84784375,"end":169.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.52471875,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.21596875,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.40096875,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.41096875000002,"end":243.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.27971875000003,"end":263.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.14159375,"end":270.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.00971875,"end":279.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.47659375,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":285.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.47159375,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.46221875000003,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.99596875000003,"end":309.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.37909375000004,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.18471875,"end":326.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.73096875000005,"end":339.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.29409375,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.52596875,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.04721875,"end":363.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.88971875000004,"end":371.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.58471875000004,"end":372.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.01909375,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.16221875,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.37721875,"end":382.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.05971875,"end":407.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.69721875000005,"end":412.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.84409375,"end":415.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.10096875000005,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.61971875,"end":424.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.74096875000004,"end":425.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.32721875000004,"end":443.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.02909375,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.44659375000003,"end":447.25221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.92721875,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.85471875,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.03971875,"end":464.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.32534375,"end":478.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.99409375000005,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.57596875,"end":488.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.83221875000004,"end":491.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.65034375000005,"end":494.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.90721875,"end":501.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.31534375,"end":507.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.47471875,"end":509.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.99346875000003,"end":513.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.3640937499999,"end":515.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.69721875,"end":516.3215937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.19909375,"end":524.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.1303437500001,"end":528.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.6572187500001,"end":531.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.6228437500001,"end":538.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.1240937499999,"end":538.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.7822187500001,"end":542.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.38909375,"end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issue在follow的問題這個王逸川今天成了我們司法法制委員會或是其他委員會共同討論的焦點人物我想問一下部長"},{"start":31.691,"end":50.547,"text":"現在坊間常常在使用這個手機來精算也是大數據的演算能夠用大數據的方式那用在商業上然後可以針對不同的活動的人流商業來進行分析這是現在已經慣常在使用的一個big data您知道嗎"},{"start":52.614,"end":76.168,"text":"這個我沒有那麼清楚你們要了解那因為當然我認為王逸川在節目上所說的事情資訊從哪裡來我無從得知那我個人也認為他的發言可能也有需要再斟酌的地方但是我想請問如果手機的定位的內容是去識別化的"},{"start":77.168,"end":87.699,"text":"去識別化再來進行各種的分析商業使用或是其他學術研討使用研究使用的話那去識別化有涉及各資嗎?"},{"start":89.888,"end":107.138,"text":"個人資料當然一定是自然人嘛,自然人的一個,那手機當然是屬於個人資料的一個範圍啦,那去四倍化我想這個應該是,是不是可以屬於那個個資法的一個合理使用的一個問題。"},{"start":109.759,"end":117.267,"text":"你們好好要再精確一點否則在其他的詢答的過程不夠嚴謹就被簡稱抖音就被去以訛傳訛法務部長就認為這樣是涉及各自剛剛就在今天的內政委員會內政部部長劉世芳她的詢答"},{"start":130.642,"end":145.136,"text":"現在在臺北縣市的警局或是內政部也有一些人口護證在使用的相關資料只要是去識別化並沒有侵害個人資料保護的問題這是內政部部長劉世芳所說我再給您一次機會"},{"start":146.337,"end":168.988,"text":"那個的確是各自法他是有保障個人資料因為個人資料不是使用就是違法他是在保障那只是說一個違法使用的一個有些禁止的使用的部分那當然有一些的罰則但是他最主要還是要促進個人資料的一個合理使用那也要兼顧隱私權的一個保障"},{"start":170.461,"end":174.723,"text":"我們可以讓真理越辯越明當然王逸川他也多次的清楚澄清跟說明並非由單一政黨有這個能力而且去進行了使用這個系統來針對現在大家無限擴大的這個言論我想當事人他已經做出清楚的這個澄清跟說明那剛剛我們的吳宗憲教委說他個人要去告發王逸川我也尊重"},{"start":198.337,"end":210.106,"text":"但是如果要告發的話可以一併連侯友宜也一起告發一併連盧秀燕也可以一起告發因為這些地方政府也都使用這個Big Data去從事相關的必要的合理的使用這是我的看法"},{"start":215.33,"end":238.774,"text":"第2個呢我也看到在野黨的這個黃國昌委員今天在昨天國會立法院職權行使法國會擴選的法案剛通過還不到10小時這個法律還沒有正式被頒布被總統公布居然黃國昌也說要針對王逸川就鎖定成為第1個要叫來國會問話、問訊的人我想這就是先射箭再劃靶嘛"},{"start":244.575,"end":261.77,"text":"這就是一個政治的意圖在前頭嘛所謂的國會的聽證權、調查權這種包括副官級總召昨天說的一完成立法他就喜滋滋的、得意洋洋的對媒體說我們要成立在野的國會特徵組"},{"start":264.215,"end":290.372,"text":"天啊 整肅一擊的時代又來了這個法律剛通過還不到幾小時我也可以在這裡大膽的預測啊王逸川是第一個會被調來國會問訊的人下一個可能是李政浩第三個可能是于北辰接下來黃世聰以及劉寶潔五位可能都有機會您知道我為什麼點名這五位嗎"},{"start":291.516,"end":303.828,"text":"因為這五位啊電視上常常在評論中國時事跟經濟的名嘴啊或是政治評論家就在中國5月15號國台辦已經公布的懲戒名單裡頭所以呢這樣的修法這樣的一個裡應外合"},{"start":310.821,"end":339.052,"text":"國會特徵組國會擴權讓立法院可以成為一權分立一權獨大剛剛我們召委說我們成了一權國家其實這個一權國家獨大的是立法院昨天通過的這些國會擴權的二法就會形成台灣只剩下一個立法權他可以凌駕行政權他可以凌駕監察權可以凌駕司法權"},{"start":341.365,"end":370.504,"text":"所以呢我要再次說請大家要自制啊一個法律剛上路都對不起它還沒有上路連三讀的文字哩哩啦啦還有一堆文字的缺漏扯出來的包都還不知道怎麼來收拾居然就說要鎖定王逸川就要叫來成為國會第一個被問話被問訊的人這就是在野黨遂行了政治肅殺的政治目的不是嗎"},{"start":371.687,"end":374.26,"text":"不演了!完全不演了!"},{"start":375.265,"end":404.252,"text":"所以呢我是覺得很遺憾我請司法院秘書長在這裡因為這個法律通過二三讀之後監察院很快的就公布了一個新聞的聲明監察院認為立法院的擴權嚴重的傷害了監察權那違反了憲法的院紀之間憲法機關之間的權力分立的原則那其實同樣的我們在座的兩位在台上的兩位司法權"},{"start":404.872,"end":405.012,"text":"司法院的立場．"},{"start":424.835,"end":427.317,"text":"先上車後補票先開刀再麻醉就是現在的狀況"},{"start":452.898,"end":462.811,"text":"再也黨先修法讓自己國會擴了權取代了監察權取代了司法權然後呢再來說我們下一步來廢考監來修憲"},{"start":465.516,"end":477.722,"text":"這民進黨早就在這一個場域司法法制委員會我已經講了N次我講了N次如果要修憲就修憲不能夠用修法來凌駕修憲在野黨現在是先修法讓國會擴權然後回過來說我們現在來推動廢監察院的修憲案"},{"start":491.844,"end":513.177,"text":"這就是先上車再後補再補票啊這就是醫生要開刀先給你開了刀再來麻醉啊秘書長我的說法正確嗎就憲政分立的原則有先擴大了立法的權限然後再來說我要來廢掉監察院嗎這是監察院昨天的聲明裡頭清楚的闡述的立場秘書第5"},{"start":517.25,"end":542.248,"text":"那這個問題 林董簡單可以回答吧該修憲是不是就修憲 絕對不能先修法之後再回頭來去修憲 先上車後補票 很簡單的問題藐視國會罪還沒有總統公告 你不用害怕 就回答 據實以答沒有關係針對多元的社會 我們尊重委員的說法"},{"start":543.502,"end":556.93,"text":"所以尊重立法委員胡說八道尊重立法委員胡亂修法這就是藐視國會最最嚴重的地方翁曉琳委員說的上對下的關係我要跟大家說"},{"start":558.342,"end":582.307,"text":"他應驗了翁小玲說的上對下的關係在這一次的國會擴權的修法完全應驗了因為民選總統可以被叫來立法院即問即答國情報告改為常態化這就是太上立院上對下對民選總統擁有最高民意基礎的總統立法院可以這樣對待他"},{"start":583.584,"end":593.148,"text":"第二個上對下就是利用藐視國會罪這樣子的荒誕制度的設計讓你們行政官員每一個人都噤聲每一個人成為乖乖牌每一個人不敢言所當言為所當為然後真的成為質詢就是上對下因為有藐視國會罪你都不敢說話啦"},{"start":605.768,"end":621.784,"text":"第三個上對下就是最殘暴的一個太上國會可以把人民動輒的叫來立法院要你提供資料就提供資料要你來問話就問話把人民的人權踩在腳底這就是上對下"},{"start":622.685,"end":641.621,"text":"翁曉琳說的都靈驗了都應驗了剛剛吳宗憲、張偉說如果王逸川說的手機定位是侵害個人資料保護法那麼昨天剛修過的國會擴權的法案可以要求人民繳出一切你要的資料你要來這裡應訊問話連找律師都要主席同意"},{"start":649.958,"end":671.574,"text":"個人資料保護法吳宗憲你敢說啊你們這種違憲亂證的修法有把個人資料保護法有把人權放在眼裡嗎如果你們對於王逸川的言論如此認為不可我當然也認為王逸川的講話不夠精準"},{"start":672.492,"end":693.152,"text":"但是如果要用同樣的標準一個去識別化的資料都要被你們無限上綱稱為侵害人權違反個資那麼即將上路的國會擴權法案把人民叫來立法院必須提供一切的資料"},{"start":694.711,"end":708.212,"text":"這沒有侵害人權嗎?實在很抱歉我今天的主題其實準備很多那只好下一次再針對我們的司法精神醫療體系就教於兩位但是我們站在這裡這個現正時刻"},{"start":710.695,"end":710.715,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":726.178,"end":751.823,"text":"但是針對基本該有的憲政精神的捍衛對於我們司法獨立的捍衛對於人權的捍衛我們都要繼續言所當言、為所當為否則一個不敢講話的國會殿堂這是什麼民主只有立委可以在這裡無地放矢官員不能表述"},{"start":753.43,"end":768.428,"text":"我認為這是民主倒退的一刻我在這裡還是期勉大家藐視國會罪民主進步黨會提出釋憲案我們也很有把握希望憲法法庭可以做出一個合憲的一個判決"},{"start":770.151,"end":770.231,"text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員"}]}},{"id":"153242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331da02f1e3e6fe375674cb636d3605ada8a3ee6acdf2d5e9871d80c1a84178aff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:15:11 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11:23:45","影片長度":"00:10:25","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":625,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:23:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:13:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時13分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委跟林次長一起。"],["主席：好，主委跟次長。"],["范委員雲：有些問題可能你們可以自己看誰可以回答，謝謝兩位。可不可以請問一下，近五年核能占比跟再生能源的發電量占比，現在的情況如何？預計五年後的狀況如何？這個是不是請經濟部林次長回答？"],["林次長全能：跟委員報告，我們去年核能的發電占比大概是6.3%，再生能源是9.5%，預估今年再生能源應該可以到13%左右。"],["范委員雲：所以已經超過核能的占比嘛！"],["林次長全能：是，是。"],["范委員雲：那五年後你們的預估是什麼？"],["林次長全能：五年後，我們希望2030年時，再生能源可以達到30%左右。"],["范委員雲：然後核能的占比呢？"],["林次長全能：核能部分大概就是除役了，所以核能就是零。"],["范委員雲：那會有缺電的問題嗎？今天早上預設好像我們要發展AI就會缺電，這個你們沒有評估過嗎？剛剛那個評估裡面有沒有評估到AI部分？"],["林次長全能：我很具體明確地回答，事實上，對於未來的用電需求，我們有長達五到十年的推估，根據這個推估，我們把所有供電能量都準備好，剛剛提到核能三廠一號機或二號機會除役，這早在三、四年前我們就在推估這樣的情形，所以已經把要準備的機組都準備好了，而會上來的機組，包括燃氣機組，包括再生能源、太陽光電跟離岸風電，這些都會上來。"],["范委員雲：你們其實都評估在裡面了嘛！"],["林次長全能：是，是。"],["范委員雲：再來我應該要請問核安會陳主委，剛剛我們也談到新型核能，就我所看到的研究，目前還是有很大的技術瓶頸，要到2050年才有可能商轉，是這樣子嗎？你同意這個說法嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：呃，同意。"],["范委員雲：同意，所以2050年離現在還多久？"],["陳主任委員東陽：大概27年吧。"],["范委員雲：還有27年嘛，如果技術瓶頸不突破的話，2050年還會商轉嗎？就算會商轉，發電成本是個大問題，我看到的研究報告，是PNAS（美國國家科學院院刊），由美國前核能管制委員會主委參與的研究團隊報告，報告說這個比傳統核電廠還可能產生高達30倍的核廢料，發電成本比再生能源高出3至5倍。就算安全問題有比較好，但核廢料是30倍，是再生能源成本的3到5倍，主委有看過這個報告嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我有看過。"],["范委員雲：是不是這樣子？"],["陳主任委員東陽：欸，是的。主要是這樣，那個Prototype，新型的原型開發需要投入更多的經費，所以……"],["范委員雲：是，開發這個要投入更多的經費？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，它有研發性質，我在報告裡也有說明，所以即便是那個NuScale公司，現在也因為不符合商業利益而終止。"],["范委員雲：是，不符合商業利益。我看到的這個報告中提到發電成本的估計，這是能源公司的估計，SMR的成本是每兆瓦105到135美元，風力發電的成本是每兆瓦25到32美元，然後太陽能光電的成本是每兆瓦32到37美元，這樣沒錯吧？所以是不是請主委要告訴大家，至少在2050年前，在目前技術不突破的情況下，核廢料是30倍，發電成本比再生能源高3到5倍。我想這是專業問題，剛剛講的都是尊重專業，專業的問題專業給答案，我們才能做整體的安全評估。當然，除了安全評估之外，我想很多人也講過很多次，應該是三個前提，第一個最基本的前提，就是這個討論要尊重專業，不是我們非專業的人做的評估，是專業的評估。另外，有關核安問題，剛剛有很多人講到地震的部分，我也想再追問一下，如果立法院真的、也許、萬一用多數表決要延役，是不是核安的部分要重新評估？過去的報告有把地震帶這些問題都評估進去嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安是一定要審慎評估。"],["范委員雲：是不是要重做環境影響評估？過去有做環境影響評估嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：過去興建的時候沒有，那時候還沒有。"],["范委員雲：對，因為當時還沒有環境影響評估相關法規。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：好，那這個我們知道。其實地震的部分我知道監院之前有做過報告，但台電一直沒有釋出，其實地震的風險是很高的。還有一個也是剛剛好幾位委員講到的，就是目前臺灣的核廢料涉及到一個很大的問題，我想核安會主委也許更專業，請問，有多少國家有走到最終處置場？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前我理解只有芬蘭現在在試營運，但是還沒有真正……連美國都沒有。"],["范委員雲：試營運？那它的成本有算到裡面嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有。"],["范委員雲：沒有，成本我們也不知道，以芬蘭的條件，你覺得臺灣找得到低階跟高階的最終處置場嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：呃，這個有點困難，可以請台電說明。"],["范委員雲：有點困難，根據法規，低階部分是不是要在地公投？"],["林次長全能：是，沒有錯，低階的最終處置場是要公投。"],["范委員雲：我剛剛聽到你們的討論，曾經評估過花蓮跟金門，你們評估在地公投會通過嗎？"],["林次長全能：低階不是，低階不是。"],["范委員雲：低階不是，那低階曾經評估過哪裡？"],["胡司長文中：低階曾經在經濟部有提出兩個候選場址，就是臺東跟金門……"],["范委員雲：臺東跟金門，那你們評估……"],["胡司長文中：到目前為止，因為地方政府沒有辦理公投。"],["范委員雲：地方政府不願意辦公投……"],["胡司長文中：對，沒有辦理公投。"],["范委員雲：沒有人要辦公投，那你們評估，就算他們辦公投，公投會同意、會通過嗎？"],["胡司長文中：公投會不會過，就是要看民意。"],["范委員雲：地方政府也不願意辦公投，而高階的部分，目前以我的瞭解，連法規都沒有，如果有法規，在地公投也是基本的民主尊重吧？"],["許副總經理永輝：對，的確目前來講是沒有法規依據。"],["范委員雲：你們覺得找得到最終處置場，就像芬蘭現在正在實驗跟努力中的嗎？芬蘭我們都知道，他們的地方非常大，北邊就是很大的森林綠地。"],["許副總經理永輝：我們在2017年時的確已經確定臺灣是有所謂的花崗岩的母岩可以適合做最終處置。"],["范委員雲：請問是在哪個縣市？"],["許副總經理永輝：2017年的時候，我們確定的是曾經有在金門跟花蓮。"],["范委員雲：金門跟花蓮，高階……"],["許副總經理永輝：但是這部分實際上當時……"],["范委員雲：那你們有請問過金門民選立委跟花蓮民選立委的意見嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：當時我們在這部分的社會溝通和地方政府的溝通，的確遇到困難。"],["范委員雲：金門縣政府、花蓮縣政府會支持嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來講是不會。"],["范委員雲：目前是不會，所以我們討論這個問題，剛剛主委和經濟部次長為什麼沒有把這些條件告訴大家？好像這都是不需要處理的問題。以我看到的資料，這個所謂最終處置場，連法國、日本、英國、俄羅斯、中國都還在尋求選址；我們都知道中國不是個民主國家，所以我想這是一個蠻大的問題，這雖然不是安全問題，但也是一個民主國家基本的倫理問題，垃圾場都沒有人想要，有鄰避問題，更何況是連低階都還在對不起原住民跟蘭嶼人，找不到最終處置場，更何況高階。所以請我們的官員講清楚，歐盟的分類法是有條件納入核能作為氣候減緩跟調適的項目，所謂乾淨能源跟綠色能源是「Do No Significant Harm」，不要有重大傷害，臺灣現階段的核電廠根本不符合乾淨或綠色能源，因為我們沒有辦法處理中等、低跟極低放射性廢棄物的最終處置設施，更何況沒有設施就不會有具體且具細節步驟的計畫，所以我們並沒有那個不造成重大傷害的條件，就算你們研議了，這兩個問題不解決，也不是企業可以用的綠色能源跟乾淨能源。核安會主委，同不同意我講的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：同意。"],["范委員雲：同意，那可不可以說清楚、說大聲一點？"],["陳主任委員東陽：同意。"],["范委員雲：你們不說清楚，還要我們委員自己做研究來幫你們說清楚，這不大對吧！主委，可不可以請你告訴我們國安會主委，好嗎？橫向溝通一下，他跟你比起來，他是核能專家嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：國安會主委……"],["范委員雲：國安會主委有上新聞，剛剛不是有……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是國發會。"],["范委員雲：國發會，對不起，講錯了，國發會主委，一時不太開心，所以國發會主委不是能源專家吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該不是。"],["范委員雲：不是，那你是專業的，是不是橫向跟他講一下，不要誤解歐盟的相關分類，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.70596875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.072218750000001,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.636593750000003,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.80471875,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.41221875,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.611593750000004,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":53.13659375,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":55.17846875,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.35471875,"end":61.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":61.81034375,"end":67.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.93221875,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.48471875,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.36971875,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.37346875,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.91346875,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.44471875,"end":79.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.09034375,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":107.96346875,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.47471875000002,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.74034375000002,"end":134.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.94221875,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.49471875,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.51159375,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.63721875000002,"end":180.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.18409375000002,"end":182.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.36534375000002,"end":183.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.47409375,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.74096875,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.02346875,"end":233.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.62721875000003,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.18221875,"end":302.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.05534375,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.08909375,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.34159375,"end":310.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.28221875,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.61846875000003,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.27221875000004,"end":346.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.53346875,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.17034375000003,"end":350.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.09846875,"end":351.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.78159375,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.45659375,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.09659375,"end":366.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.07096875,"end":369.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":371.04471875,"end":375.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.90534375000004,"end":372.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.24659375000005,"end":382.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":380.34284375000004,"end":380.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":381.99659375000005,"end":383.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.54909375,"end":386.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":384.30846875000003,"end":384.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05",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的最終處置場嗎這個有點困難有點困難低階根據法規是不是要在地公投"},{"start":371.089,"end":375.77,"text":"我剛剛聽到你們的討論曾經評估過花蓮跟金門你們評估在地公投會通過嗎?低階不是那低階曾經評估過哪裡?那個低階曾經在經濟部曾經就提出兩個候選場子就是在台東跟在金門"},{"start":396.174,"end":423.625,"text":"台東跟金門那你們評估到目前為止因為地方政府沒有辦理公投地方政府不願意辦公投沒有人要辦公投那你們評估就算他們辦公投公投會通過嗎公投會不會通過就是要看民意地方政府也不願意辦公投那高階的部分目前以我的瞭解連法規都沒有如果法規公投在地公投也是基本的民主尊重吧"},{"start":425.169,"end":440.796,"text":"對,的確目前來講是沒有法規依據那你們覺得找得到就是說最終處置廠像芬蘭現在正在實驗跟努力中的嗎?芬蘭我們都知道他那個地方非常的大北邊就是很大的森林綠地"},{"start":441.556,"end":470.182,"text":"我們在2017年的時候的確已經確定就是說台灣是有所謂的花崗岩的這個母岩可以適合做最終的處置那請問是在哪個縣市有在2017的時候大概我們確定大概就是曾經有在金門跟花蓮金門跟花蓮高街那你們有請問過金門民選立委跟花蓮民選立委的意見嗎所以當時我們就是這部分在社會的溝通跟地方的政府的這個部分的確遇到困難"},{"start":470.882,"end":491.071,"text":"金門縣政府會花蓮縣政府會支持嗎目前來講是不會目前是不會所以我們討論這個部分剛剛主委跟經濟部次長為什麼都沒有把這些條件告訴大家好像這都不需要處理的問題以我看到的資料"},{"start":493.203,"end":516.283,"text":"連這個所謂的最終處置場連法國、日本、英國、俄羅斯、中國都還在尋求選址中國我們都知道不是個民主國家所以我想這是一個蠻大的這個部分雖然不是安全問題也是一個民主國家基本的倫理問題垃圾場都沒有人想要的有零幣的問題更何況是"},{"start":518.685,"end":541.902,"text":"連低階都還在對不起原住民跟蘭嶼人找不到最終處置場那更何況高階那依照這兩個所以請我們的官員講清楚歐盟的分類法是有條件納入核能作為氣候減緩跟調適的項目所謂乾淨能源跟綠色能源是Do not significant harm"},{"start":542.932,"end":566.849,"text":"沒有不要有傷害有意義的傷害台灣現階段的核電廠根本不符合乾淨或綠色能源因為我們沒有辦法處理中等低跟極低放射性廢棄物的最終處置設施那更何況沒有設施就不會有具體且具細節步驟的計畫所以我們並沒有那個不造成重大傷害的條件"},{"start":568.71,"end":582.276,"text":"所以就算你們研議了這兩個問題不解決也不是企業可以用的綠色能源跟乾淨能源這個主委同不同意我講的何安慧主委同意同意那可不可以說清楚說大聲一點"},{"start":583.556,"end":597.821,"text":"同意你們不說清楚是我們這個委員自己來做研究幫你說清楚不大對吧那主委可不可以請你告訴我們國安會主委好嗎橫向溝通一下他跟你比起來他是核能專家嗎"},{"start":599.557,"end":604.821,"text":"國安會主委國安會主委有上新聞國發會主委一時不太開心國發會主委不是能源專家吧應該不是不是 那您是專業的是不是橫向跟他講一下不要誤解了歐盟的這個相關的分類好嗎好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331a63df8cfad296804243e47098157e4f6a3ee6acdf2d5e987577c341b200dd5535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:07:01 - 11:19:17","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":736,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:19:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:07:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，今年上半年農業環境基本給付面積申報是18.6萬公頃、轉（契）作面積申報是5.8萬公頃，生產環境維護面積是3.1萬公頃。你針對農業環境基本給付面積，只針對是非都內的，就是非都的特定農業區跟一般農業區，對不對？。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那未來都市計畫的農業區，或非都的土地山坡地保護區、河川地、農牧用地，甚至國家公園土地，這個部分有沒有可能納用？"],["陳部長駿季：我想分兩個層次，一個層次就是說，如果國土計畫法如期執行的時候……"],["邱委員志偉：現在會如期嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在我們大家一起在努力朝這個目標前進。"],["邱委員志偉：你了解，你有參與。會不會延期？"],["陳部長駿季：裡面是有一些很多配套的作用法要處理。"],["邱委員志偉：對。配套沒有完成，你如期上路的話，可能會造成很多的負面影響，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是有可能造成一些影響。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那我想請教，你現在只針對一般農業區，對不對？就是針對非都的特定農業區跟一般農業區有給付，一年大概兩次，各5,000元。未來我希望是不是可以針對都市計畫區、農業區或非都的山坡地保護區、河川用地這些部分，你也可以有相關的給付？"],["陳部長駿季：因為現在的農一、農二已經劃出來了，農一、農二如果已經框了一些都市計畫裡面的農一區的部分，我們會優先考慮，因為以後可以對接……"],["邱委員志偉：所以農一、農二未來有可能納入環境基本給付吧？"],["陳部長駿季：會，一定會。"],["邱委員志偉：那金額是多少？也是一樣嗎？也是5,000元嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是一期5,000元，後續我想……"],["邱委員志偉：也是一樣嘛！跟現在的……"],["陳部長駿季：不是！我要先跟委員說明，當國土計畫上路，劃出農一、農二的話，我們所有政策資源的投入會以這個為集中點，甚至有一些要讓它……"],["邱委員志偉：就是打破所有非都，或者是一般農業區，或者都市計畫區的農業區，打破這些，你用農一、農二來做補助嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後那個政策一定會加碼，因為我要確保那個農地本身的農用部分。"],["邱委員志偉：所以農一、農二就包括都市計畫的農業區嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，是看縣市政府劃的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：好，所以你要配合國土計畫法上路之後，再做調整嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那給付金額也是一期5,000元，全年是1萬元？"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在是這樣子，但是後續一定會去調整，因為我們已經對外承諾，如果你劃入農一……"],["邱委員志偉：假設它會延期，我是希望針對都市計畫農業區也可以做補助。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會去專案檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：假設它要延期2年才實施上路，你對這部分，我希望說……"],["陳部長駿季：我們就會專案去檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：你就去做到公平。如果你財源足夠的話，你如果沒有辦法做到5,000元，你也可以酌予……比方說，4,000元、3,000元也可以考慮啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會用差異性地去處理這個議題，用專案的方式啦！"],["邱委員志偉：另外，今天媒體有報導說蛋價降，然後它也是滯銷，那個有沒有什麼相關的做法？"],["陳部長駿季：剛才有委員提醒我說……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，我有聽到。"],["陳部長駿季：我現在一個重點就是說，因為目前的蛋大概是2,420萬顆，比過往還多……"],["邱委員志偉：對，我知道。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們現在是希望在雞舍的部分能夠做一些老母雞的淘汰。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，這些我都了解啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你蛋滯銷，有淡旺季嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：現在是淡季。主要是它的飼料成本居高不下，是不是有這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：它的飼料成本，我今天早上特別去看了一下現在的玉米跟大豆的成本，比最高點大概是降了26%。"],["邱委員志偉：因為蛋商對飼料成本有意見，他說飼料成本太高，我希望你做一個平臺，把蛋商和飼料業者也找來，看看問題出在哪裡，看能不能協議。比如說把飼料成本降低，來減少他的成本嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，今天早上我已經請畜牧司去找這些飼料工會的部分，看看他們在整個飼料成本的計算上面有沒有調降的空間，因為過往已經降了26%嘛！"],["邱委員志偉：你一定要趕快！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我今天早上就已經交代了。"],["邱委員志偉：三方都協調好，趕快找出一個結論，讓三方都可以接受。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，臺紐經濟合作協定將在2025年上路，這個部分對酪農的相關配套措施有沒有已經完成了？"],["陳部長駿季：報院的計畫已經核定了，現在是在執行細節。第一個執行細節就是……"],["邱委員志偉：要花多少錢去協助我們酪農？"],["陳部長駿季：我們原報的是29億元，行政院核定的是18.6億元，其中差的是一個青貯料的補助，那青貯料的補助我們會用另外一個方案來處理。另外一個就是……"],["邱委員志偉：所以29億元只核定18億元還是不夠，我希望你要配套做得好，你的資源、經費一定要到位。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你現在已經從代理變真除了，你要為酪農著想。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：好。另外，你知道中研院在去年有公布農業政策建議書，未來會變成你農地政策白皮書相關的重點，也會變成你未來推動農業基本法立法的重點，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：參考依據啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好。這些單位，包括國科會、環境部，也有針對氣候變遷因應法有一些報告。未來可能低溫的狀況比較少，高溫的狀況會比較普遍，高溫對沿海養殖的漁業，包括魚種，對文蛤是不利的，但是對虱目魚是有利的……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：而且烏魚的漁獲量會因為溫度的關係，而造成漁場北移。所以我們北高雄作為一個沿海跟近海養殖的重鎮，漁業署有沒有相關的因應作為，來協助漁民適應氣候變遷的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們現在正在對農的部分和漁的部分在討論，特別是高溫的天數或頻度比較高的時候，有些魚種會比較有利，所以牠產區的位移可能要預先做準備。第二個，沿海的部分它本身漁場的監控更加重要，因為它往北移的時候，到底移到哪邊，這個部分我們要去做研究。"],["邱委員志偉：高溫會是一個常態，就是氣候變遷。高溫對魚種的影響、對漁業的影響和衝擊，你一定要提出妥善的方式。另外，農民數位卡的進度怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：農民數位卡的部分，其實我們過去兩年在18項的農業關聯資料庫已經建立了，我們現在正在串接我們農地的資料庫跟氣象的資料庫。我們會發行的不是實體卡，而是一個數位卡，這個數位卡的部分會跟網路銀行一樣……"],["邱委員志偉：有哪些功能？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個功能就是，它的服務分兩個面向，以後農民到公所去申請的時候，掃了他的專屬QR Code，他的基本資料跟他過往所種植的東西會馬上呈現，不用重新用紙筆填，所以會加快……"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個數位卡非常重要，把所有資訊都在一卡裡面。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要儘快上路，對農民在申辦各項業務，他會有很快的效率。另外，你的農電2025會不會跳票？"],["陳部長駿季：因為農電的部分是整個政府的大政策，我想我們會盡最大的努力地去……"],["邱委員志偉：你的目標是2025達到9GW，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：9GW，對。"],["邱委員志偉：你現在達成率是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：現在大概是……"],["邱委員志偉：38%啦！"],["陳部長駿季：差不多是38%左右。"],["邱委員志偉：不到4GW。那你怎麼樣去達標？你有沒有相關的因應作為？比方說，地方創生優先區是不是可以開放試辦地面型農電？有沒有這個方向規劃？"],["陳部長駿季：我想，第一個部分就是，現在不是地缺的問題，現在是在整個區域裡面，有的農民願意配合，有的農民不願意配合，所以光電業者在跟農民的協調上面產生了很多的問題。另外一個部分就是它養殖的事實。所以我們現在會重新去啟動一個機制，就是光電下的這些養殖有沒有機會用集團栽培的方式，由漁青來協助。"],["邱委員志偉：關於這個，幾個方式、四大建議，有很多媒體都有相關的研究。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：農業淨零的路徑很明確，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：小規模漸進來推展，然後以地方創生為本，讓農電為地方創生來加值。這幾個方式都已經幫你提出了solution，我希望針對這些solution，你們要去研究怎麼樣去達成嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，農地沒有人耕，缺工的狀況非常特別，你們要怎麼樣去把這個媒合的調度加強？生產面積不斷上升，但農戶人口逐漸下降，這個狀況怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我想分兩個面向，一個面向是季節性的缺工，我們用人力來處理……"],["邱委員志偉：我了解。"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是我們現在會更積極地用農事服務業去協助它的一些……"],["邱委員志偉：核配比率供不應求啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是1萬2,000人，才核大概將近8,000人還不到，還有4,000個名額在那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：還有4,000個名額？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那4,000個名額主要是針對哪些產業？"],["陳部長駿季：農糧的申請比較多，其他的反而申請的比較少。"],["邱委員志偉：農糧比較多……是不是你推廣不夠？有很多人跟我反映，說他都缺工，都找不到。比方說漁業也缺工，養殖漁業也缺工啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們漁業給他的名額並沒有用完。"],["邱委員志偉：那是不是推廣不夠？為什麼很多人說根本漁工還不夠？"],["陳部長駿季：漁工本身可能有一部分是牽涉到後段的管理跟居住的問題，這個部分我們會更積極地去協助。"],["邱委員志偉：所以從112年到現在，漁工人數是1.2萬，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：1.2萬目前是足夠的？"],["陳部長駿季：大概核了將近8,000人，還有4,000人哦！"],["邱委員志偉：因為你門檻太高啦！你門檻太高，所以就沒有辦法讓他有資格去申請漁工嘛！所以我認為你門檻適度做調整，一下就滿了。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會滾動檢討那個門檻，我們農糧的門檻已經往下降了，至於漁業的或其他的，我們會再檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得還是要往下降。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你空有1.2萬，但是你沒有辦法媒合，沒有辦法促成，對不對？所以就是門檻太高。謝謝部長，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝。也請部長將相關資料送給委員說明清楚，謝謝。","接下來我們請呂玉玲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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慮因為農一農二未來有可能納入環境這個基本幾戶吧會 一定會那金額是多少現在目前大概也是一樣嗎也是5000嗎"},{"start":155.256,"end":165.022,"text":"我們現在是一起五千,那後續我想...不是,我要先跟委員說明齁當國土計畫上路融一融二的話,我們所有的"},{"start":166.024,"end":166.264,"text":"﹚邱志偉"},{"start":190.075,"end":209.446,"text":"所以你要等你要配合這個顧慮計畫上路之後再去調整嘛對那幾戶金額是也是一起5000全年是現在是這樣子但是後續一定會去調整因為我們已經對外承諾如果你畫路假設他會延期我是希望說針對都市計畫農業區我們會去專門檢討假設他要延期兩年再實施上路你對這部分我希望說我們就會專門去檢討如果你財源足夠的話"},{"start":219.031,"end":236.358,"text":"您如果沒有辦法抓五千,您也可以左倚,不用說四千、三千也可以考慮啊。對,我們會用差異性的去處理這個議題,用專案的方式啊。另外今天媒體有報導說,蛋價滯銷,蛋價降,然後它也是滯銷,那個有沒有什麼相關的做法?"},{"start":241.082,"end":268.558,"text":"我想剛才那個有委員提醒我說那我現在一個重點就是說因為現在目前的蛋大概是2420萬顆比罐還多所以我們現在是希望在雞舍的部分他能夠做一些老母雞的一個淘汰我知道那你我這我都了解啦你蛋自銷有蛋旺季嘛對不對像是這個蛋季然後這個主要他的成本高居不下是不是有這個問題"},{"start":269.759,"end":278.54,"text":"市料成本的部分他的市料成本齁我今天早上特別去看了一下現在的玉米跟大豆的成本大概是"},{"start":282,"end":301.828,"text":"我希望因為這個蛋商這個對飼料成本他有意見他說飼料成本太高我希望你做一個平台把蛋商這個把這個飼料業者也找來看看問題出在哪裡看他們的協議把這個比如說飼料成本把它降低來減少他的成本嘛"},{"start":302.108,"end":302.228,"text":"主席"},{"start":317.261,"end":318.583,"text":"對,我今天早上就已經交代了我想"},{"start":333.48,"end":354.417,"text":"報言的計劃已經核定了,現在是在執行細節,第一個執行細節就是要花多少錢去集註?我們原報的是29億,那行政院核定的是18.6億那其中差的是一個就是除料有沒有,清除料的一個補助,那清除料的補助我們用另外一個方案來處理"},{"start":356.018,"end":357.279,"text":"另外一個就是學榮來的部﹖"},{"start":373.424,"end":396.406,"text":"好另外這個農業政策的建議書你知道那個中研院我們在去年有公布的農業政策建議書未來也會變成你農地政策白皮書的相關的重點也會變成這個與外推動農業基本法立法的重點對不對對參考依據是好你這個"},{"start":398.227,"end":423.413,"text":"這些單位包括國科會環境部也有針對這個氣候變遷的應用法他有一些報告那萬一未來低溫可能狀況比較少高溫的狀況比較會普遍高溫對這個沿海養殖的魚種對文革是不利的但是對虱目魚是有利的你怎麼樣而且整個烏魚的漁獲量會因為漁場"},{"start":426.034,"end":427.016,"text":"我想我們現在正在"},{"start":442.634,"end":443.555,"text":"主席"},{"start":466.886,"end":466.966,"text":"農民數位卡"},{"start":481.64,"end":496.992,"text":"農民數位卡的部分我們這樣子齁其實我們過去兩年在18項的那個農業關聯資料庫已經建立了那我們現在正在串接我們的農地的資料庫跟氣象的資料庫那我們會發行的不是實體卡是一個數位卡"},{"start":497.83,"end":518.952,"text":"那這個數位卡的部分會跟網路銀行一樣第一個功能就是他的服務就是分兩個變相以後農民到公所去申請的時候其實少了他的專屬QR Code的時候他的基本資料跟他過往所種植的東西他會馬上呈現不用重新用紙筆填"},{"start":519.733,"end":519.873,"text":"農業2025會不會跳票?"},{"start":534.893,"end":549.315,"text":"我們因為農電的部分是整個政府的大政策我想我們會盡努力的去你的目標是2025達到9GW對不對9G嘛對那你現在達成率是多少現在大概是38啦差不多38左右不到4喔"},{"start":550.356,"end":553.179,"text":"我想第一個部分就是現在不是地缺的問題"},{"start":568.394,"end":592.408,"text":"現在是就是農民在整個區域裡面有的農民願意配合有的農民不願意配合所以光電業者在跟農民的協調上面產生了很多的問題那另外一個部分就是他養殖的一個事實所以我們現在會重新去啟動一個機制就是光電下的這些養殖有沒有機會用集團栽培的方式由漁卿來協助"},{"start":595.35,"end":619.622,"text":"這個幾個方式、四大建議有很多媒體都有相關的研究那農業進行的路徑很明確對不對?然後呢小規模漸進來推展然後以地方創生為本那農電為地方創生來加值嘛這幾個方式都已經幫你提出了solution我希望針對這些solution你們趕快去研究怎麼樣去達成嘛那另外農地沒有人跟啊"},{"start":620.282,"end":620.882,"text":"農業比率供不應求"},{"start":649.048,"end":673.864,"text":"我們現在是一萬兩千人,台河大概將近八千人還不到,還有四千個名額在那邊。那四千名額主要是真的哪些產業?沒有,農糧的申請比較多,其他的反而申請的比較少。是不是你推廣不夠,有很多人跟我反映說他這個都缺工,都找不到,比方說這個漁業缺工啊,養殖業也缺工啊。"},{"start":675.185,"end":694.726,"text":"我們漁業給他的名額他並沒有用完那是不是推廣不夠啊為什麼有很多人說啊這個根本已經移工還不夠不過移工本身喔可能有一部分是牽涉到後端的管理跟居住的問題啦那這個部分我想我們會更積極的去協助所以從112年到現在那人口已經移工人數1.2萬對不對1.2萬目前是足夠的"},{"start":698.035,"end":714.622,"text":"大概合了將近8000人還有4000人因為你門檻太高啦你門檻太高所以就沒有辦法他有資格去申請這個移工嘛所以我認為說你門檻適度做調整一下就滿了"},{"start":715.562,"end":715.582,"text":"好,謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"153239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13315cc6d6f998b7a4fe74cb636d3605ada8a3ee6acdf2d5e987e0e135e5ff889c205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:59:49 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11:14:53","影片長度":"00:15:04","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":904,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:14:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:59:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時59分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蔡局長。"],["主席：蔡局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長好。今天有非常多的委員也非常關切，我們這一次在總統就職以後，中共的軍演到底是什麼樣的目的，包括它的作為，還有它發展的狀況。因為局長在上一次質詢的時候，大概是5月1日吧！你們曾經提到說520之後，從6月到11月是中國例行軍演的季節，進入軍演熱季，國安局關注的重點是中共會不會藉口進行一些軍事演習來對臺灣施壓。媒體報導也提到，新國安團隊曾經在一場內部的簡報當中指出，總統就職前後的中共軍演都是在意料之中，也都是基本動作。就局長的判斷，這一次在520之後的3天就展開了軍演，這是它例行性的基本動作，還是突發性的？國安局掌握的狀況是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：當時在立法院說明的時候，我們就有稍微強調，中共對臺的這種聯合戰備警巡已經常態化，從1月13日到520，它可能會不斷地用常態化的聯合戰備警巡來對我們施壓。我當時也提醒了，因為從6月到10月，甚至11月，是它演習的熱季，所以下個階段……"],["馬委員文君：5月這一個有沒有掌握到？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，5月這個階段，剛剛也提到，從1月13日到520，我們大概都有推演各種可能的狀況。我老實跟委員報告，在中共宣布軍演期間，事實上它的船艦已經開始動員，那一動員……"],["馬委員文君：對，軍演我們知道，因為它6月就有常態性的一些軍事演習，這個已經是例行性，就跟我們漢光演習一樣，可是我要問的是5月23日這一場，我們事實上有沒有掌握到？因為剛剛您說它的兵力沒有比較多……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，跟過去兩場比較。"],["馬委員文君：可是它的範圍比較大，然後這一次是用4個軍種，陸海空軍還有火箭軍，對於我們的壓縮其實是更近了。尤其中共這一次軍演的內容、項目，對於反介入跟區域拒止其實是比較明顯的態勢，我想要請教的是，就520以後，這個3天我們有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為我跟……"],["馬委員文君：它會發生，你們已經知道了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要跟委員說明的是，事實上大概在5月18日左右，它的船艦都已經開始在活動了，那這種活動的態勢，我們一判就會發現這是有點異常的，而且慢慢地往臺海地區周邊的水域在移動，這樣我們就發現了徵候了。"],["馬委員文君：那這樣有兩個問題，因為我們在5月18日已經發現它的軍艦在活動，可是現在其實每天都有機艦在活動……"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道你的意思。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分有沒有產生變化，國安局的掌握，就局長您剛剛的說法是已經有掌握到了，那我們在520的時候還派出了37架軍機，而且都是現在重要的主力戰機，不管是F16、IDF、高教機還有幻象等等，其實都參與了這一次的總統就職，所以像這樣子，既然有掌握，是我們有點輕忽嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，因為就國軍來講，當然在展演的飛機跟相關戰備的飛機它是有做任務的分工的，而且每天的在空機都有一定的數量在捍衛我們的領空。"],["馬委員文君：我們當然知道，可是當中共是演習，不是常態性的每天機艦擾臺的部分，我們就已經有掌握了，還做出這樣的一個選擇。另外，我們比較擔心的就是解放軍的動員能力非常強，因為在520之後，平常它在6月以後嘛！為什麼這一次的軍演沒有掛彈？很大的一個可能性是因為它非常機動，還沒有來得及去做公告，因為如果正常要實彈的話，其實必須要公告，包括演習的區域範圍，所以這一次兩天的軍演，它的目的很重要，就國安局掌握，就局長您的看法，為什麼會這樣做？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的判斷，我跟委員做一個說明，軍事上它當然是在對我們進行恫嚇，但是在政治上，我剛剛也跟王定宇委員說明的是，中共也有做一些必要的風險控管，所以它並沒有宣布禁航區，並沒有發射實彈。假如又宣布禁航區、又發射實彈，演習規模又比照當時裴洛西2022年8月訪臺的話，它所造成國際社會的關注程度會非常非常地高，特別是在我們的就職典禮之後。"],["馬委員文君：因為2022年裴洛西議長訪臺的時候，那個已經是拉很長的時間，而且他們也做了預告，所以有時間可以去公告。我們現在比較擔心的是，短短的兩天之內，它已經迅速地集結，而且很多人根本不知道，沒有掌握到，因為本來給我們的資訊，包括國安局喔！你們當時跟立法院說明的部分，其實也都是到6月以後他們的常態演訓，所以我們必須要關注的是中共在這麼短的時間可以這樣做，它速戰的一個作法，其實它如果隨時有掛彈，隨時有做這樣的準備，馬上就可以行動。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個我們有注意……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們比較擔心的是這一個部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，剛剛也有跟其他委員說明，因為它在5月23日早上7點45分宣布演習之後，確實是快速地動員海上跟空中的兵力來投入這場演習，另外還包括海警部隊，動員的速度加快，這個我們有在注意。"],["馬委員文君：中共為什麼會有這一個演習？局長，你掌握的是什麼樣的狀況？"],["蔡局長明彥：一開始也跟……"],["馬委員文君：為什麼會有這一個？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛在外面也跟媒體說明……"],["馬委員文君：是因為賴總統的演說嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，演說的部分，我剛剛也跟媒體說明，因為演說主要的內容還是在延續維持臺海現狀相關政策的路線跟基調，那對岸有一些涉臺系統釋放出來，賴總統提到中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個論點，事實上也是延續了蔡前總統的四大堅持的第二大堅持，所以就路線上，基調來講，並沒有去……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，各自的解讀，那是雙方面的。我現在要說的是，就這一次解放軍軍演的動作，您的觀察，還有國安局的掌握，它的目的到底是什麼？是因為賴總統的就職演說有觸犯到什麼嗎？所以中共才有這樣子的一個機動性的軍演。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的判斷是，就職演說應該只是一個理由啦！它主要是透過這一次針對性的軍演來對內做宣傳，對外做宣示，也就是北京對於臺海情勢有絕對的主導跟掌控權，不管是誰在臺灣擔任總統，我覺得主要的訊息我們是朝這方面來解讀。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還是要因應嘛！對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["馬委員文君：不管是誰擔任總統，過去的8年前其實並沒有這麼危急，也沒有兵凶戰危。我們現在要提的是，27日美國眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾議員，其實他也曾經對外說明，中國確實有一些紅線必須要小心，不要跨越，不然將導致一場災難性的戰爭，這是他的說法。請教局長，因為我們是不畏戰、不避戰，而且我們也不想給解放軍有跨越紅線的藉口來破壞和平導致戰爭，你可不可以用比較簡單的、接地氣的方式告訴我們全體國人，因為是我們全體國人要去面對跟承擔所有的戰爭風險，而不是外國人，今天我們都指望有很多國家可以來協助，那個我們沒有辦法做判斷，可是當第一線面對戰爭風險的是我們全體國人，局長，你用比較接地氣、比較簡單的方法告訴我們，所謂的紅線是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想上次在貴院大會這邊做專題報告的時候，也曾經針對這個問題……"],["馬委員文君：比較簡單的說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，就是說美國現在跟中國高層的交往，事實上在進行的是一種紅線外交，也就是美國不斷在對中國畫紅線，哪些事情……"],["馬委員文君：局長，我說的是我們自己的紅線，就您掌握的，因為你是國安單位，而且您是局長，就他們提到的，包括美國認知的也好，或者我們應該要有的，所謂的紅線是什麼？很簡單地告訴我們。"],["蔡局長明彥：不管是國際社會、美國或是我們在講的紅線，主要還是在維持臺海的現狀，臺海安全的現狀，這個就是最主要的紅線。"],["馬委員文君：維持臺海的現狀，因為什麼樣的因素有可能改變？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如中共要單方……"],["馬委員文君：這個紅線是什麼？你要具體講出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，就是我們的目標是要維持臺海現狀，但是假如中共透過單邊的或武力式的、脅迫性的方式……"],["馬委員文君：它單邊，有可能用什麼樣的藉口？"],["蔡局長明彥：它有可能用這種武力的方式或武力威脅的方式來脅迫我們。"],["馬委員文君：那個我知道，我是說什麼原因啦！局長，你知道我的問題吧？你應該知道所謂的紅線是什麼。"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員講一下……"],["馬委員文君：你講不出來？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是，中共所謂的紅線是依照它來定義，它的紅線很清楚……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，它的定義也沒關係，因為剛剛局長也提到主動權在它，如果以它的定義，它自己的認知，到底什麼是紅線，你讓全體國人知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，中共所謂的對臺政策主要有三個路線，基本的基調，反獨、促統、反外力介入，就是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：就這樣嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：所以就這個部分，在紅線上面我們要怎麼樣去拿捏，其實在整個過程，尤其現在越來越緊張的情勢之下，臺海隨時都面臨很大風險的情況之下，我想整個國安團隊要掌握的訊息應該是這個，而且不要讓我們國人有溫水煮青蛙的心態，因為當國際都非常緊張的情況之下，全體國人好像還不是那麼在乎，這是有很大的風險的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：另外，剛剛也有委員提到，我們昨天剛通過的，局長要先回答嗎？沒有？這個部分請國安單位持續掌握，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["馬委員文君：我再用一點點時間，不好意思，主席。很多委員其實有提到，像反滲透法，剛剛局長在回答的時候也有提到，不要把什麼事情都扣上這麼大的紅帽子，所有的交流，我們過去為什麼沒有這樣的問題？今天如果兩岸可以交流，可以有更多的管道，其實我們維持和平就多一個希望，不管是透過任何的管道，不要把每一個人都先打入賣臺。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，對。"],["馬委員文君：如果嚴格說起來，昨天通過的法案，因為大家在擔心的是洩密，我們所有的委員，中華民國的立法委員，其實整個機密的資料他們都是可以看的，當你們在做報告的時候，只是用機密的形式來報告，所以沒有這樣的問題。包括你在做調查或者聽證的時候，在法條裡面訂得非常清楚，不管是國安、外交、國防，如果有屬於機密性質的，它還是受到相關的規範，所以不要把這個統統套在一起，說那個可以拿到哪裡？拿到習近平的桌子上，這是非常可笑的說法！","今天如果有洩密，現在要追究的是這個機密的資料到底有沒有真的洩露出去，這個要查。今天如果我們通過了這個調查權，到底有沒有洩露，包括我們很多重要的國防裝備，包括潛艦，如果第一艘的資料已經洩露出去了，你後面的7艘還可以造嗎？所以要不要查？應該把它查清楚。可是有沒有人把它洩漏給其他不應該知道的？除了立法委員在立法院聽到的或看到的相關資料以外，有些人把更深入的資料給了不該給的人，給了不該給的可能有利益的團體，這個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所以就這個部分時間的關係不好意思這部分國安局應該要有一個高度今天如果要我們外面已經充滿危險已經充滿動盪如果內部是由我們自己引發的這樣子的動亂而且還要刻意去把它歸咎給哪一個政黨或哪些人這樣子會造成更大的動亂"},{"start":858.36,"end":875.278,"text":"一句話就是說反滲透的部分對於兩岸正常合法的交流我們都予以尊重沒有意見那可能我們會特別關注的是有任何違反到反滲透法相關的法律要件的部分而且要有具體證據我們就會啟動相關的那當然嘛所以你官員如果在"},{"start":876.319,"end":876.339,"text":"謝謝馬委員"}]}},{"id":"153238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13310585076dca1f0cafdb3ca66b34e87331a3ee6acdf2d5e9875f4fac1feadc5ba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:00:41 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11:13:23","影片長度":"00:12:42","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":762,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":27,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-27"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:13:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:00:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時）謝謝主席，請法務部長還有警政署的代表。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位早安。我今天本來是準備要就強化社會安全網第二期的部分，有一些東西要跟各位就教，但因為剛剛我聽了沈發惠委員及謝龍介委員提到有關手機的部分，我想我也要提出一些想法。其實在上一屆的時候，李貴敏委員就曾經問過當時的法務部長蔡清祥，有關這種大型的社會運動或是政治活動會不會遭到監控？當時的蔡部長非常明確的告訴我們「不會」，絕對不會藉由這些活動來鎖定有投票權的國民的手機IP或者是監控民眾曾經參加過哪一些活動。當時的部長說得非常清楚，我們也信任部長說的，部長也說若是手機遭監控一定是涉及犯罪嫌疑，負責承辦的檢察官認為有辦案的需求才會加以鎖定，如果沒有涉及到犯罪，手機就不會被定位。結果剛剛兩位立委跟部長請教的，王義川這個人在節目上面說，總統選舉造勢到近期的兩次集會遊行都證明，有人給民進黨中央有關手機使用者的資訊，這是王義川在公開的節目中所說的。我想請教的是，部長，這是蔡前部長說謊，還是有哪一個單位在進行這樣的資料蒐集跟分析啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。我想我並不清楚他說的那個有什麼單位做資料的數據分析，但是我也尊重蔡部長的講法。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝，但部長這樣等於是沒有回答。那我再請教一下，對於手機定位這個東西，我們就直接來談一下手機定位在個資法上的概念。在「政府以資訊國安為由採用電子監控系統並追蹤手機，是否侵犯自由人權與侵害隱私？應如何確立合理明確的法律界限？」專題報告中，法務部說參酌國發會在107年11月7日發法字第1072002039號函及同年月21日發法字第1072002136號函的解釋，似乎認為手機號碼及定位資訊係屬個人資料，而有個人資料保護法之適用。這是當初法務部在專題報告中所說的。再來，在「大數據運用與隱私保護─手機定位資訊於防疫應用之法律問題研析」，由先前的行政院資通安全處處長簡宏偉所撰寫的文章，也曾經下過一個結論就是，手機定位資訊是個人資料保護法第二條第一款規定的個人資料。所以，我想請教部長一個問題，手機定位是不是屬於個資法的保護範圍內？"],["鄭部長銘謙：手機定位這是個人資料，的確是個資法的一個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。我想這跟之前法務部的說法也是符合的，部長說的就跟之前法務部的說法是一樣的。好，既然手機定位是個資法保護的範圍，這個沒有問題，那我們就回到剛剛問題的起點了，王義川使用的資料是哪裡來的？這是我覺得很奇怪的一個點。既然定位資料是屬於個資保障的範圍，那這個資料到底是哪裡來的？當然這段時間有人扯說，新北市府在辦歡樂耶誕城時曾經做了什麼？那個是人流的管制，人流的管制跟這個是完全不一樣，因為他講的內容包括年齡以及不同場次的交叉分析。這個你我都很清楚，這都騙不了人，除非是不想動腦子去仔細思考的人，才會不知道這兩個差距在哪裡，一個是人流的控管，一個是已經具初步識別化的年齡以及不同場次的分析。所以這樣的作為，部長覺得沒有違法嗎？因為這是法官保留的部分吧？對於個資保障的例外，應該是屬於法官保留的範疇，怎麼會拿到這個資料呢？部長認為這個合法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於個資可不可以合理的使用，那部分個資法有規定，個資法第一條就有規定合理……"],["吳委員宗憲：當然合理使用沒有問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：兼顧使用，而且這個應該不是……，個資的使用應該是要按照個資法的規定來，這跟通保法不一樣，通保法是要法官保留，而個資的使用有另外的規範，它保護的跟通保法不同，因為通保法第二十四條那部分必須要監聽它的內容的問題……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，這部分我再補充，因為我剛剛可能說太快，沒有說清楚。關於這部分，我個人認為一部分是跟個資有關，但另外一部分是手機通訊的使用就會涉及到通保法，這部分涉及到法官保留，我剛剛可能講得比較快。如果我們讓非官方，而且非犯罪偵查、非國安調查情況下的一般個人就可以取得這些手機定位的資料，甚至一些通訊方面的資料……這是通保法規範的範圍或個資法規範的範圍，其實我到現在想想還是覺得似乎有點不太對勁。這個部分我是不是可以在這邊對他進行告發？這應該是北檢，可能麻煩北檢或者是士檢進行調查。我說真的，告他不是找誰麻煩，也許我們是幫他釐清他是合法的，給國人一個交代，不要讓大家開始人心惶惶的說，原來我以為是秘密的這些個資，卻可以被人拿去使用在政論節目，我覺得這有點恐怖。尤其是可以做不同場次的分析，我是不是曾經參加過太陽花學運，我是不是曾經參加過哪一次政治集會，就可以做這樣的交叉分析。我想今天不管是哪一個黨，都不太能忍受這樣的狀況發生。會具體告發啦！不管告發的結果怎麼樣，我都尊重檢方的認定，也許檢方是還王義川一個清白，這樣也很好，因為這樣讓國人知道這個資料取得可能是沒有問題，或者是王義川自己胡說八道，這也有可能，所以我會這樣做。","因為我總是覺得，我國是五權憲法的國家，世界上的國家幾乎都是三權，我們本來比人家多了兩權，結果現在不能把五權憲法弄成完全是一權專制國家。本來我們是行政、立法、司法、考試、監察的五權，結果現在被搞的只剩下行政權而已，變成執政黨有所有的行政權，大家都配合行政權在玩，讓我們變一權國家，突然從世界上區分最多的五權憲法體制變成是一權體制，這其實還蠻莫名其妙的。尤其這段時間，我從選前看到飛彈的假簡訊到反滲透法，用了一堆的檢調的資源、警察的資源下去查這些里長赴中國旅遊，其實我看了一次比一次痛心，怎麼國家會被玩成這樣？因為我以前以為的行政中立，我以前以為的國家憲法制度下的獨立機關，或者是法律制度下的獨立機關，現在感覺都沒有那麼的獨立。也許是我的誤解，但如果是我的誤解，也許這段時間大家一起努力，讓我們心中不再會誤解，讓我們大家都能夠再相信，其實國家的各個機關、行政機關，我們的五權彼此之間是獨立，而且是有效的互相監督，我的想法是這樣子。","最後，因為時間的關係，我就回歸到今天的議題我因為我有提臨時提案，有請各位能夠先給我一些數據，所以今天就問題的部分，我想我就不多說了。不過，我還是想要請教一下，因為剛剛陳俊宇委員有提到，對於監護處分作業流程這個部分，對於這些單位，我們檢察官每個月會視察一次，對不對？就是對於這些醫療機構或跟法務部有關的部分，我們是不是每個月會視察一次，就是剛剛陳俊宇委員有提到的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我想請教一下，之前發生的脫逃案件，最近一次的視察內容是什麼？還有視察有沒有發現有缺失？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我再來瞭解，這是由地檢署去處理的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個再麻煩你瞭解一下，請你瞭解一下本件，第一個，當然每個月至少要視察一次，先請瞭解一下，有沒有真的做到去視察？就像以前我在地檢署的時候，我們要視察監獄，一定都會有紀錄，而且我們會填寫報告表，我想請部長幫我們瞭解一下，到底有沒有做到每個月至少視察一次？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，他的評估的狀況；還有一個，就是精進的狀況怎麼樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：下一次有機會，我可能就會跟部長請教監護處分的一些維安預算的運用。本來是準備在今天要跟大家請教，但是我剛好沿著前面的話題下來，我想那個是剛發生的，也是國人現在開始會擔心的一件事，因為昨天我都在立法院忙，我並沒有注意到新聞，但是今天早上我看到很多新聞跳出來，有人在談這個事情，我的手機會被定位這種事情，這是會造成人的恐慌的。","就像之前有法院認為GPS不能隨便裝，因為GPS隨便裝，法院認為這是侵害個人的隱私權，當時有海巡署的同仁因為辦案子而被判刑。所以我們現在又開始推動要把科技偵查立法，國家朝向一個非常好的方向去走，沒有錯。但是從GPS都不能裝的角度去思考，如果GPS不能裝，裝了是侵害隱私權，結果我的手機被定位卻是可以，那你告訴我說已經去識別化了，但是你去識別化的程度到什麼樣？如果還可以做不同場域的交叉分析，我其實擔心這個是真的有達到去識別化嗎？這是我很擔心的一個點。不能因為我曾經參加過哪幾場的政治活動，然後我就要被政府瞭解我的政治傾向是什麼，這是極權國家在做的，不是民主國家在做的。這部分我想，部長，你應該不會否定我的想法吧？是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會來瞭解。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那謝謝部長，下一次我就再跟部長請教有關預算的使用，還有監護處分的目的有沒有達成。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝各位。接下來請吳思瑤委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 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謝謝主席 那我們請法務部長還有警政署的代表"},{"start":16.025,"end":40.131,"text":"委員好兩位早安我想我今天本來是準備要就強化社會安全網第二期的部分有一些東西要跟各位就教那因為剛剛我聽了審發會委員還有縣委員所提到的有關手機的那個部分我想說我這邊也要提出一些想法"},{"start":41.246,"end":57.741,"text":"其實在上一屆的時候李桂民委員就曾經問過法務部長蔡清當時的部長蔡清想就是有關這種社會的大型運動或者是政治活動會不會遭到監控那當時的蔡部長非常的明確告訴我們說不會"},{"start":58.462,"end":59.563,"text":"當時的部長說得非常清楚"},{"start":74.714,"end":91.101,"text":"所以說我們也是信任部長說的那部長也說這個手機招監控因為是涉及一定是涉及犯罪嫌疑負責的懲辦的檢察官認為有辦案的需求才會加以鎖定如果沒有涉及到犯罪"},{"start":91.781,"end":118.539,"text":"我手機就不會被定位結果這個剛剛兩位立委跟部長就請教的王逸川這個人在節目上面表示說總統選舉造勢到近期兩次的集會遊行都證明有人就是給民進黨中央有關手機使用者的資訊那這個是王逸川在公開的節目中所說的"},{"start":122.901,"end":129.13,"text":"蔡前部長說謊還是有哪一個單位在進行這樣的資料跟收集跟分析?"},{"start":135.971,"end":152.474,"text":"這個我並不清楚他那個是有什麼單位做資料的數據的分析但是我也尊重蔡部長的一個講法好 謝謝部長那這樣等於是沒有回答那我再請教一下"},{"start":154.332,"end":178.9,"text":"對於手機定位這個東西我在這邊就直接我們來談一下手機定位這個個資法上面的概念我想法務部在政府以資訊國安為由採用電子監控系統並追蹤手機是否侵犯自由人權與侵害隱私應如何確立合理明確的法律界限的專題報告"},{"start":180.563,"end":189.786,"text":"中法務部說參酌國發會在107年11月7日發法制第107-200-2039號函以及同年月21日發法制第107-200-2136號函"},{"start":198.669,"end":221.323,"text":"的解釋:「似乎手機號碼及定位資訊是屬於個人資料而有個人資料保護法的使用。」這是當初法務部在專題報告中所說的再來在大數據運用及隱私保護、手機定位資料與防疫應用之法律問題延期"},{"start":222.968,"end":237.119,"text":"由先前的行政院資通安全處處長兼宏偉他所撰寫的文章也曾經下過一個結論就是手機定位資訊是個人的資料保護保護法第二條第一款規定的個人資料"},{"start":238.263,"end":254.057,"text":"所以我想請教部長一個問題手機定位是不是屬於各執法的保護範圍內手機定位這個是個人資料的確是各執法的一個問題好 謝謝我想說這跟之前法務部的說法"},{"start":255.179,"end":256.481,"text":"王一川使用的資料是哪裡來的"},{"start":270.539,"end":292.995,"text":"這是我覺得很奇怪的一個點啦既然定位資料是屬於各自保障的範圍那這個資料到底是哪裡來的當然這段時間有人扯說新北市府在辦歡樂夜爛城曾經做了什麼那個是人流的管制跟這個是完全不一樣因為他講的內容包括到年齡以及不同場次的交叉分析"},{"start":294.316,"end":303.247,"text":"這個你我都很清楚嘛 這個都騙不了人嘛 除非是不想動腦子去思考的人 就才會不知道這兩個差距在哪裡一個是人流的控管 一個是"},{"start":304.281,"end":305.001,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":328.7,"end":349.935,"text":"各執法的話它可不可以合理的使用那個各執法有做一個規定它第一條就有規定那個合理使用沒有問題兼顧使用而且這個應該不是這個各執法有要使用應該是要按照各執法的這些的規定來這跟通報法不一樣通報是要法官保留"},{"start":350.535,"end":378.362,"text":"那各自法的使用這是一個有它的另外的規範它那個保護的跟通保法因為通保法24條那一部分必須要監聽它那個內容的問題好沒問題好那不然這部分我再做補充一下因為我剛剛可能說太快沒有說因為這部分我個人認為是一部分是跟各自有關但另外一部分是手機通訊的使用這會涉及到通保法這部分會涉及到法官保留的部分我剛剛可能講比較快好那因為"},{"start":379.602,"end":379.622,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":404.6,"end":430.27,"text":"我覺得這個部分是不是我在這邊可以對他進行告發然後可能麻煩那個這應該是北檢吧北檢或者是市檢市檢能夠進行調查這塊我想說因為其實我說真的告他不是說找誰麻煩啦也許我們是幫他釐清他是合法的給國人一個交代不要讓大家開始在"},{"start":431.414,"end":459.546,"text":"人心惶惶說原來我這些資料我以為是秘密的我個資的部分卻可以被人拿去使用在政論節目我覺得這有點恐怖啦尤其是可以做不同場次的分析我是不是曾經參加過太陽花學院我是不是曾經參加過哪一次政治集會就可以做這樣交叉分析我想今天不管是哪一個黨都不太能忍受這樣的狀況發生所以我想我在這邊就具體"},{"start":461.099,"end":479.344,"text":"我會具體告發不管告發的結果怎麼樣我覺得我都尊重檢方的認定也許檢方是還王逸川一個清白這樣也很好因為這樣讓國人知道沒有問題這個資料取得可能是或者是王逸川自己胡說八道這也有可能所以我這邊我想我會做這樣的想法"},{"start":479.784,"end":491.377,"text":"因為我總是覺得我國是五權憲法的國家世界上國家幾乎都是三權我們本來比人家多了兩權就現在不能把五權憲法完全是一權一權專制國家"},{"start":494.901,"end":523.591,"text":"因為本來我們是行政立法司法考試監察的五權就現在被搞得只剩下行政權而已變成執政黨所有的行政權大家都配合行政權在玩那我們變一權國家突然從世界上區分最多的五權憲法體制變成是一權體制這其實還蠻莫名其妙的尤其因為我這段時間我從選前看到的飛彈的假簡訊到反滲透法用了一堆的那個檢調的資源警察的資源下去查這些"},{"start":524.531,"end":540.706,"text":"李長什麼赴中國旅遊一直到其實我看了一次比一次痛心啦怎麼國家會被完成這樣因為我以前以為的行政總理我以前以為的國家憲法制度下的獨立機關或者是法律獨立下的獨立機關現在感覺都沒有那麼的獨立"},{"start":541.607,"end":542.248,"text":"我的想法是這樣子"},{"start":561.184,"end":584.763,"text":"好那最後我就回歸到今天的議題因為時間的關係我想說因為我有提那個臨時提案了有請各位能夠先給我一些數據所以今天就問題的部分我可能我就不多我想我就不多說了那不過我還是想要請教一下因為剛剛那個陳俊偉有提到說對於監護處分作業流程這個部分對於這些"},{"start":588.973,"end":589.353,"text":"這個我再來瞭解"},{"start":617.754,"end":644.091,"text":"這個是由地檢署去處理的那這個部長再麻煩你了解一下那你幫我了解一下說本件第一個當然每個月至少要視察一次就是先幫我了解一下有沒有真的有去做到視察就像以前我在地檢署的時候我們要視察監獄我們都一定會有那個機率而且我們會填寫那個報告表那我想請部長幫我們了解一下"},{"start":645.172,"end":673.311,"text":"到底有沒有去做到每個月至少視察一次再來他的評估的狀況還有一個就是精進的狀況怎麼樣那下一次有機會我可能就會跟部長請教到這個監護處分的一些維安預算的運用因為本來是準備在今天要跟大家請教但是我剛好沿著前面那個話題下來我想那個是剛發生的也是國人現在開始會擔心的一件事那我覺得這幾天可能"},{"start":674.051,"end":699.233,"text":"因為這事情我昨天我都在立法院忙我並沒有注意到新聞但是今天早上我看到很多新聞跳出來有人在談這個事情那這種事情我的手機會被定位這是會造成人的恐慌了就像之前有法院認為GPS不能隨便裝因為你GPS隨便裝他認為這是侵害我的隱私權嘛所以當時有海巡署的同仁因為辦案者而被判刑"},{"start":700.336,"end":723.188,"text":"所以我們現在開始推動要把科技偵查要去立法這國家是朝向一個非常好的方向去走沒有錯但是從GPS都不能裝的這個角度去思考如果GPS不能裝裝的是侵害隱私權結果我的手機被定位卻是可以那你告訴我說我已經去識別化了但是你去識別化的程度到什麼樣"},{"start":724.309,"end":747.065,"text":"如果還可以做不同場域的交叉分析我其實擔心這個是真的有達到去識別化嗎這個是我很擔心的一個點不能因為我曾經參加過拿機場的政治活動然後我就要被政府了解我的政治傾向是什麼這是集權國家在做不是民主國家在做的這部分我想部長您應該不會否定我的想法吧"},{"start":748.823,"end":749.624,"text":"請教有關預算使用及監護處分的目的"}]}},{"id":"153237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133121f595b3cd1e5365d0e137800dc086eaa3ee6acdf2d5e987c94745a67232c4b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:04:43 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11:13:16","影片長度":"00:08:33","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":513,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:13:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:04:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":587,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請次長跟主委。"],["主席：好，我們請次長跟主委。謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：我先請教次長，大家都一直不停地在問AI，因為這也是賴總統的政見，我們要發展AI，可是很多報告都在講，AI的用電量非常高，今天有非常多委員也都非常關心我們真的有準備好嗎？因為企業要發展、經濟要發展，電就要準備好。次長剛剛其實也說了，我們都有在準備，那我可不可以請次長再做一些詳細的說明，我們怎麼做這些準備跟預估？謝謝。"],["林次長全能：是，我剛剛提到我們每年都會做未來用電的需求預估，現在已經做到2030年。每一年的用電需求除了用GDP的成長預估之外，最近也把半導體的發展跟AI的發展加進去。也就是說，除了GDP的成長之外，也把半導體這個用電可能發展得比較快的產業，還有AI的部分都加進估計每一年用電需求的參數裡面。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。這個部分我剛剛前面都已經有聽到，這個電源的規劃是什麼？大家很擔心，我們雖然好像都有算，這個電源是怎麼樣分配？是不是有需要用到核能？這件事情是不是可以請……如果我們現在做這些規劃，可不可以再做一些說明？"],["林次長全能：是，需求推估出來之後就規劃供電的狀況，每年的供電我們發現需要建新的電力的時候，目前為止，我們都是擴大綠能以及燃氣電廠的投入，另外一個是將燃煤的部分逐漸降下來，目前電力發展的配比是這樣子。但是為了淨零的發展，事實上，我們在氫能的發展目前投入了一些示範、運行的實驗在進行中。另外一個部分，未來火力電廠要碳中和，需要用到CCUS，我們就在國營事業做相關的投入。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。好，次長，我想直接這樣問好了，其實我也從網路上面看到台電有做相關的規劃，看起來在高峰期好像也都能夠持續供電，我們也有長期電源開發的規劃。我就想問一下，我看到你們發了最新的新聞，說新增的燃氣機組扣除除役的機組後，到2030年會淨增加910萬瓩，光是燃氣就足以滿足用電成長的需求，再加上再生能源還有儲能裝置，我們還可以再增加到4,042萬瓩。這個是正確的數字嗎？"],["林次長全能：是，這個我們正在做。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想再確認一下，大家都非常關心缺電會影響經濟發展，現在到2030年，我們已經把AI跟半導體的部分都放進去了。"],["林次長全能：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好。我想要再確認一件事情，我在網路上面看到童子賢──和碩聯合科技的董事長建議讓核二、核三延役，核一、核四廠址剷平，並且引進芬蘭OL3這個新型的核電廠。我想要請問主委，你認同這樣的主張嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：站在核安會的立場，我不能夠對能源政策表態，是不是留給經濟部回答？"],["張委員雅琳：不好意思，我就直接問細節好了，我查到OL3的資料，他原本說15年，但是工期延宕，前前後後花了18年，一個反應爐的成本也從最初的30億暴增到110億歐元，整個成長了80億，似乎跟我們從網路上面的新聞得到的數字有點落差。再來，也有說美國設計的第一座小型模組反應爐（SMR）即將在2015年上線，但是到現在、此時此刻都還沒有上線，已經拖延到2030年，成本也大幅增加，而且根據美國國家科學院發表的期刊，SMR產生1單位的電力就會產生更多核廢料，比原本傳統的反應爐高出30倍。這部分我想跟主委確認，我得到的資訊是正確的嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該是正確的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，接下來繼續請教，既然看起來現在所謂的新技術好像沒有辦法解決核廢料的問題，我們就回來看現在核廢料的處理，畢竟這是最重要的事情。我們現在的核燃料池已經爆滿了，因為早期做這些評估的時候過於樂觀，並沒有足夠容納40年核廢料的存放空間，加上過去也沒有環評。從這一張圖就可以非常清楚地知道，現在燃料池已經差不多了，甚至像是核一廠還有724束，核二廠還有1,248束都是沒有辦法拿出來的。我也有看到新聞說核一的部分好像今年年底就可以啟動了，對嗎？但是我想要問，現在只是核一，還有核二，核二的進度在哪裡？"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來講，我們在最終處置這一塊的確遇到了一些問題。目前台電公司也積極處理，希望能夠從中期貯存這一塊因應。"],["張委員雅琳：對，現在核二的進度呢？現在還沒有辦法找到最終處置的地方嗎？還是還在申請中？還是怎麼樣？可以說明嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：核二室外乾貯的部分，目前正在等法院調解。這樣的話，如果……"],["張委員雅琳：對，跟新北市的調解，對不對？"],["許副總經理永輝：對，調解，跟新北市調解完以後，後面可能需要花兩年到三年的時間。"],["張委員雅琳：二到三年的時間，所以這個部分我們還需要二到三年處理，對不對？好，中研院的研究或是世界上談這件事情都有講，核能發電最大的阻力其實是放射性廢棄物的最終處置場，不管是從技術的角度或者是從安全性這件事情，它都是我們要不要用核電最艱難的決定。畢竟從這上面所有的資料可以看到核一廠、核二廠都已經屆期，核三廠已經超過申請延役的期限，現在也沒有辦法解決最終處置場的問題。其實中研院的建議書也有提供意見，說我們還有其他能源，就像剛剛講的再生能源、減碳的選擇、儲能設備，這都可以解決企業需要用電的問題。我希望主委一定要努力，以專業的角度幫所有人民的安全把關，因為核能安全一定是最高指導原則。這一點拜託主委，可不可以給我肯定的答復呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，核能安全是所有核能運轉的前提，也是最重要的核心。"],["張委員雅琳：對，這部分請台電或是主委一定要以這個把關，因為這攸關所有人民的安全。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.40346875,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.30159375000001,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.29159375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.01221875,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.51159375,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.55784375000002,"end":165.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.23284375,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.16096875000002,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":181.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.70721875,"end":182.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.39909375000002,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.94721875000002,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.98096875000002,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.24096875,"end":195.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.23659375000003,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.71034375000002,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.76034375,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.58221875,"end":225.85221875000002},{"speak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有請次長跟主委好 我們請次長跟主委 謝謝"},{"start":17.222,"end":45.674,"text":"首先我先請教次長就是說其實因為其實大家今天都一直不停的在問就是AI因為這也是賴總統的一個政見就是說我們要發展AI可是因為從很多的報告也都在講說AI的用量是非常非常的高那今天有非常多的委員也都非常關心說我們真的有去準備好嗎因為企業要發展經濟要發展電就要準備好那我次長剛剛其實也說了我們都有在準備那我可不可以請次長再做一些詳細的說明我們怎麼做這些準備跟一些預估謝謝"},{"start":47.035,"end":65.331,"text":"我剛剛提到我們每年都會做未來用電的需求預估我們現在已經做到2030年每一年的用電需求我們除了用GDP的成長來做預估之外我們最近也把半保體的一個發展跟AI的發展把它加進去也就是說我們除了GDP的成長之外"},{"start":65.731,"end":92.732,"text":"也把半導體這個用電可能會比較這個發展的快然後AI的部分都把它加進去在我們估計每年用電需求的一個這個這個估計的一個這個參數裡面對這部分我剛剛前面都已經有聽到那講說這個電源的規劃是什麼因為大家都很擔心嘛我們你算人頭好像都有算那這個電源是怎麼樣做分配的是不是有需要用到核能這件事情是不是可以請如果我們現在做的這些規劃可不可以再做一些說明"},{"start":93.672,"end":115.245,"text":"我們這個需求推估出來之後我們就去規劃我們的一個供電的狀況那每年的供電我們發現說需要去建新的電力的時候目前為止我們都是擴大綠能的一個投入以及這個燃氣電廠的一個投入那另外一部分就是把燃煤的部分能夠逐漸的降下來我想目前的一個電力的一個發展的一個配比是這樣子"},{"start":115.965,"end":133.173,"text":"但是為了淨零的一個發展事實上我們在這個這個氫能的發展也目前投入了一些示範的一個運行的一個這樣的一個實驗在進行中那另外一個部分就是說未來我們的火力電廠要碳中和需要用到CCUS的這個部分我們就在相關的一個這個以國營事業的這個"},{"start":139.236,"end":164.485,"text":"市長我想直接這樣問好了就是說其實我們其實我也從網路上面是有看到台電是有做一些相關的規劃然後看起來在高峰期好像也都能夠持續的供電那我們也有一個長期電源開發的規劃那我就想問一下就是說我當然我也昨天也看到你們發了一個最新的新聞就是說新增的燃氣的氣阻扣阻除液的機阻後進增加到2030年會增加910"},{"start":166.237,"end":166.257,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":182.712,"end":196.068,"text":"委員這個是我們這邊正在做好所以我想再確認一下因為大家都非常關心這個缺電會影響經濟發展所以我們現在在2030年目前我們都已經把AI跟半導體的部分都已經放進去了"},{"start":197.349,"end":197.789,"text":"主委,您認同這樣的主張嗎?"},{"start":219.807,"end":231.644,"text":"我站在核安會的立場我不能夠對這個能源政策來做表態我想這個是不是留給經濟部來回答那報審那我就直接問到細節好了"},{"start":235.134,"end":261.486,"text":"就是說我們在這個OL3我查到的資料是說他原本是說在他說在這15年事實上他供期延宕前前後後花了18年那一個反應爐呢成本也從最初的30億暴增到111億的歐元所以整個成長了80億喔所以這好像似乎跟我們從網路上面新聞得到的數字是有點落差的那再來就是說"},{"start":262.967,"end":279.407,"text":"也有去講述這個SMR的小型模組反應爐就美國設計的這個SMR的反應爐呢是宣布在第一座即將在2015年上線但是到現在此時此刻都還沒有上線已經拖延到2030年成本也大幅的增加"},{"start":280.267,"end":297.753,"text":"這是根據而且在根據美國國家科學院刊發表期刊是說每成家他在SMR所每成產生的一定位的電一單位的電力就會產生更多的核廢料比原本的傳統反應爐高出30倍這部分我想跟主委確認我得到的資訊是正確的嗎"},{"start":300.042,"end":326.893,"text":"應該是正確好 那接下來就繼續請教就是說既然看起來現在所謂的新技術好像是沒有辦法解決我們所謂的核廢料的這個問題那我們就回來看我們現在的核廢料的處理因為畢竟是一個最重要的事情就是說我們現在的核燃料其實已經是爆滿了因為早期我們在做這些評估的時候過於樂觀所以並沒有"},{"start":327.893,"end":337.938,"text":"竹枸容納40年的核廢料的存在空間加上過去也沒有環評所以從這張圖就可以非常清楚的知道說"},{"start":339.309,"end":361.323,"text":"我們現在不管是在燃料池的已經差不多了還甚至有一些像是核一廠還有724宿核二廠還有1248宿都是沒有辦法拿出來的那我也有看到新聞是說我們即將在核一的部分已經好像今年年底就可以啟動了對嗎但是我想問現在只是核一喔還有核二那核二的進度在哪裡"},{"start":372.506,"end":375.406,"text":"抱歉那個時間可以還給我齁因為我聽不到他在說什麼"},{"start":379.075,"end":384.741,"text":"對,所以我們現在核二的進度呢?現在是還沒有辦法找到最終處置的地方嗎?還是還在申請中?還是怎麼樣?可以說明嗎?核二的部分大概所謂的室外乾除部分目前我們正在等法院的一個調解"},{"start":404.199,"end":419.469,"text":"對,跟新北市的調解對不對?對對對的調解那如果跟新北市調解完以後大概後面我們大概可能需要花到兩年到三年的時間二到三年的時間所以這個部分的話我們還需要二到三年來處理嘛對不對?好"},{"start":420.349,"end":443.083,"text":"我想就是說不管是中研院的研究也有講到或是世界在講這件事情都有講核能發電最大的主力其實是在放射性廢棄物的最終處置廠不管是從技術的角度或者是說安全性這件事情它其實都是一個我們要不要決定用核電最艱難的決定"},{"start":445.074,"end":460.652,"text":"所以我想就是說因為畢竟我們從這上面的所有的資料可以看到核一廠核二廠都已經借期核三廠也都已經超過申請延役的期限現在也沒有辦法解決最終的這個處置廠的這個問題"},{"start":463.014,"end":478.082,"text":"中研院的建議書也提供其他能源．就像剛才提到的再生能源．減碳選擇．除能設備這都是可以解決企業需要用電的問題所以我希望主委這邊一定要來努力以專業的角度"},{"start":481.424,"end":483.464,"text":"這是關於所有人民的安全 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心中一把棋你不是股市的部長你微笑我們兩個個性差不多一樣都這樣"},{"start":353.105,"end":373.355,"text":"在這裡面我把它看了你的報告也寫了務實你有外部挑戰、內部挑戰我把它仔細看了一下確切實實的問題在這個地方但是我現在跟你講臺灣的農業問題會面臨到非常重大問題就是外來的農產品進來"},{"start":375.276,"end":392.677,"text":"因為我們以前是開發中的國家我們為了經濟雙邊貿易、多邊貿易、CPTPP我們自己宣稱我們已開發的國家那未來的規格就會像歐美、美國、日本、新加坡、澳"},{"start":393.738,"end":419.042,"text":"做紐西蘭一樣,農產品的進口裡面會大量的增加好好的營養只會我們不加制那些團體我們為了加制大概農業產品都是最低的程度沒有保護到沒有辦法保護到臺灣的農業所以你要先有營養這我第一點要提出來時間有限"},{"start":420.899,"end":431.869,"text":"那第二點剛剛談到姑娘的收購你這個人老實我喜歡但是姑娘的收購正如我們召委剛剛幾個委員在談"},{"start":435.421,"end":460.872,"text":"百物上漲通貨膨脹你農民不給氣了你說你反對我覺得這個你要考慮你部長要做的就好好考慮這樣我有看到你幾篇的報導我特別把它讀過但是有些是政治性的問題農業也是政治性的問題你官員要就好好思考這個問題那你如果覺得農"},{"start":462.478,"end":482.932,"text":"那個工糧收購架構提到大家會去種,你雜糧就補製多一點嘛,平衡一下卡布瓦能解決,一定要好好的思考這個問題,不要太固執喔,不然你工會做不久,我跟你講農民都反對你,你院長總統也受不了好不好"},{"start":484.012,"end":500.861,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我想我們會非常務實的去研擬那個方案好不好,好好的務實,不要得罪農民像我們到那個地方我們都跟農民低頭了他們講什麼我們都要全力解決都是講好的還有一點"},{"start":502.333,"end":530.947,"text":"農村再生條例有一些不同黨派議員說什麼這個立法院輕視到公權力但是保證我告訴你我們有人都是精益其外敗事其中公路局我們的公路我們市區道路做得非常好但是我們農路真的破破爛爛在開車在跑農路的時候要打手機的支持區我都會躲"},{"start":532.082,"end":552.168,"text":"所謂來說你永遠一個觀念 全部要怕都市做得太多了 農村要照顧 所以農村再生條例你永遠記得交通部有生活圈系統 它是都市區外的 列政部有國土管理室"},{"start":552.728,"end":572.947,"text":"他是都市計畫面現在你們水土保持那個農村發展跟水土等於研究部跟交通部一樣啊錢都不要煩惱要全力爭取不要怕啦我跟你講真的農村一定要好好的改善啦好不好會我們會努力啦"},{"start":575.211,"end":587.246,"text":"講的到這個時候有很多問題要請教你看你的報告仔細讀你的業務報告之類我們農業未來面臨很多的挑戰務實去解決"},{"start":589.659,"end":589.799,"text":"好,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331518b42509afc4e1674cb636d3605ada8a3ee6acdf2d5e987fa0e21df23cac89f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:46:51 - 10:59:27","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":756,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:59:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:46:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：局長早。最近中國的軍演到了一個段落，有一些現象要請問一下國安局，在情報掌握上有沒有一些研析跟判斷。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["王委員定宇：第一個，這個比較奇特，在中國對臺軍演期間，它有一艘4,463噸級的「聯合啟瑞號」在東海沉沒，那個區域是在它對臺軍演的區域外，大概在浙江舟山的東北角這個位置。這個拖船是半潛式的，它屬於定錨拖船，主要工作是在打撈或是拖重型的船隻，在5月24日7點02分它突然間大轉彎降速，然後大概花了1個小時的時間，AIS就不見了，國安局對這件事情有沒有一些判斷？它發生什麼事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們有注意到這件事情。"],["王委員定宇：國安局的研判是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：一來是時間的敏感性，二來是它沉沒的水域，正如委員所講的，我們在比對之後，發現它是在演習區域的外面。至於事故的原因，我們還在瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：這一艘是屬於支援型船隻，因為這種半沉潛式的船，四千多噸，當然中國還有更大型的軍規，它有它特定的功能，在那裡發生這件事情，連中國自己內部都在議論紛紛，所以國安局在情報的掌握上，有沒有判斷說這艘船到底出了什麼問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：原因我們還在瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：所以確實沉在那裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：是有這個沉船的事件。"],["王委員定宇：那這艘船沉船之後，中國那邊有沒有什麼異常的舉動？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他們有進行相關的打撈。事實上，在稍……"],["王委員定宇：它好像管制了那個水域嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且稍早之前，不只有這艘沉船，在我們的西南海域也有一架無人機掉下來，但它是屬於比較小型的科研無人機。"],["王委員定宇：屬於中國的無人機？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他們有做海事的公告，就有掉無人機。"],["王委員定宇：那個無人機在我們的西南空域嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：這個無人機應該是從船艦上起飛的，還是從陸地上起飛的？"],["蔡局長明彥：它是比較小型的無人機，可能3、4公尺翼寬的無人機。"],["王委員定宇：那應該是在船艦上起飛的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，也有可能，然後他們也有派出海釣船來進行打撈的動作。"],["王委員定宇：因為海釣船、海測船、科研機，其實常常在軍事跟民間，科學之間那條線分不清楚啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們海底的水文、地形、地貌，其實都是重要的軍事資料。你剛才講的那一架無人機是在今天早上掉下來的？"],["蔡局長明彥：不、不、不，前幾天。"],["王委員定宇：前幾天掉下來。"],["蔡局長明彥：在演習之前就掉了？"],["王委員定宇：也是在演習當中嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：演習前幾天掉了，但我們還是有注意到，我們還是有注意到這個資訊。"],["王委員定宇：那他們也是把那個區域……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有封鎖，它就派海釣船到周邊去巡邏打撈。"],["王委員定宇：去把它找出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們目前還在判斷到底發生什麼事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我問一個更早之前的，2023年8月22日，當時是英國的每日郵報引述了英國政府資訊，當然這個引述是否為真，我覺得要查證，但當時包含美國，包含英國，包含一些智庫的人說，中國一艘093型，也就是商級的核子動力潛艇，在他們黃海軍演的時候突然間不見了，然後在中國內部也傳出有一堆家屬說該回港了怎麼沒有休假，都沒回來，後來他們艦隊的司令也受到懲處，當然理由不會用這個當理由。當時也有美國專門測核訊號的偵察機貼近飛行到那個區域，這個是在2023年8月22日中共的黃海軍演，這一艘商級的093核子動力潛艇一直到現在，這件事情都沒有任何新的進度，至少我看到是沒有，國安局有沒有去瞭解這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：老實講，有瞭解啦！然後大概的判斷，應該不是嚴重的沉船事件，但有發生一些事故。"],["王委員定宇：有發生一些事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這一艘船，093這一艘商級潛艦後續的位置我們都有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：OK，講到這裡就好了，你後面不能講太多。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：事實上，中國對臺軍演，窮兵黷武，當然讓人家厭惡，任何威脅到我們家園的人，我們不會高興的。就像我們的住家，有人會去請保全，有人會設巡邏箱，有人會家戶聯防，有人是社區巡守隊，其實國家跟家園差不多，就是我們怕有流氓來威脅我們家嘛！所以怎麼提高自我防衛能力，怎麼樣提高預警能力，然後有狀況的時候有好鄰居可以來幫忙，有公權力可以介入。中國這樣子的灰色地帶的壓迫，或者是軍事威脅，從韓國、日本、臺灣到呂宋島、菲律賓，甚至連澳洲達爾文港的北邊都有發生類似的情形，所以這樣子的軍演損人不利己，中國想不開是它的事情，我們還是要做好自己的事情。","我接下來就教這一次的軍演，因為今天國防部沒有來，對於中國動用兵力的狀況，也就是規模、科目還有軍演的強度，國安局的評估是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們就兵力規模來看，並沒有比2023的「聯合利劍」或2022年8月裴洛西訪臺的聯合軍演來得大。規模上，兵力沒有……"],["王委員定宇：它這一次有沒有實彈？好像沒有。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有實彈。"],["王委員定宇：沒有實彈啊？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，跟委員說明一下，它這一次沒有實彈……"],["王委員定宇：因為Pelosi那一次它還發射11枚，有2枚是在禁航上，5枚掉到日本的EEZ上面。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以這一次的規模、科目跟強度，我是要聽聽看國安局你們情報單位的分析。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。兵力規模沒有比較大，但範圍有比較廣，因為就裴洛西當時訪臺的軍演，大概劃了5個禁航區，這一次是有9個演訓區。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有禁航？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有禁航。"],["王委員定宇：它沒有禁航。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且天數上也只有兩天，所以就整個運作的規模來講，沒有比前兩次來得更大，但是要注意的是，剛剛有提到，範圍比較大。第二個，它這一次是在5月23日早上7點45分宣布軍演之後，它就即時地啟動了軍演，它在展示它快速……"],["王委員定宇：快速動員能力。"],["蔡局長明彥：動員兵艦的能力，這一部分是要注意的。"],["王委員定宇：你剛才講的是強度，很明顯強度跟以往是不一樣的，但是規模呢？因為它是由東部戰區宣布的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是，規模沒有比較大。"],["王委員定宇：規模沒有比較大。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以動用的兵力也比較小？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，然後也沒有實彈的射擊，演習的天數也比較短。"],["王委員定宇：它增加的區域大概是……"],["蔡局長明彥：外離島。"],["王委員定宇：反介入拒止，還有一些外離島的部分嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：那它在外離島的部分，有沒有什麼樣實質的軍事行動？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，主要是動用了海巡的編組、編隊，有在……"],["王委員定宇：他們的水警進入。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有在外離島周邊做一些執法巡查的動作，這個是過去演習比較沒有的，因為第一次做。"],["王委員定宇：科目有沒有什麼不一樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：科目差不多，科目主要還是做聯合封控、聯合火力打擊、聯合拒止外軍以及聯合登陸作戰，但是在這一次的聯合登陸作戰，它投入的運作比較小，只有在東部有一個比較小規模的操演。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們判斷起來，它這一次的強度、規模、動用兵力都明顯比以往低，就國安局的研判，原因是什麼？軍事上的、政治上的，你們的研判是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，在軍事上，我們剛剛講到有幾個特點，第一個特點是它快速地動員這一次的演習；第二個特點在於它動用了海警船隻的編隊來做相關的演訓；第三個特點，我剛剛也跟其他委員提到了，爭議訊息的操作在這兩天非常非常地頻密。"],["王委員定宇：非常高。"],["蔡局長明彥：這大概是在軍事上恫嚇的一個主要動作。"],["王委員定宇：不過現在從俄烏戰爭也看得出來，假錯訊息搞不好比飛彈先行，它會伴隨著，這個是hybrid warfare，混合作戰嘛！我請梁文傑副主委一起上來，我待會一併問，局長繼續說你們的判斷。"],["蔡局長明彥：這大概是這一次軍事演習主要的一個樣態，我們後續比較關注的是在於這種海上灰色地帶的操作會不會也變成是常態化，因為在東海以及在南海，中共的這些海警或公務船隻確實有這種海上灰色地帶的操作。"],["王委員定宇：你們政治上的判斷是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：政治上的判斷，我剛剛也跟委員提到，因為它這一次的演習時間比較短，然後沒有實彈，然後又沒有劃設禁航區，所以它也有在做一些必要的風險控管，做這個風險控管的目的是不希望情勢過度地激化或升高，而引發了國際社會更強力地支持臺灣。"],["王委員定宇：所以這一次有稍微比較克制一點。"],["蔡局長明彥：感覺上是這樣，對。"],["王委員定宇：局長先請回。我最後要請教梁文傑副主委，因為網友有整理了中共黨政軍，也就是他們的媒體，他們的媒體大概就是一條鞭啦！聲調都差不多，循著剛才的問題，從它這一次對臺軍演的規模、科目、強度不若以往，然後我們再看看它的黨政軍官媒的回應，陸委會怎麼評估中共在520我們總統交接之後的反應？你們有什麼樣的判斷？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：它的反應應該是逐步增強啦！就是說在520當天之後，當天晚上就由國臺辦發言人這邊來發出一個新聞稿，之後就是21日、22日連續的國臺辦的新聞稿，然後有人民日報的評論、新華社的評論等等，然後到23日就開始演習，所以……"],["王委員定宇：你剛剛講的逐步增強，是指520到524這個區間嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員定宇：再後續我們陸委會的判斷呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣講，它的文攻跟武嚇的部分，基本上我們看到的是，到524之後算是有趨緩的現象，當然今天禮拜三是國臺辦的記者會，現在正在開，所以又開始做了一些批評，但是我們認為現在的這個批評大概就是重複上個禮拜的說法。"],["王委員定宇：國臺辦大概還是老調重彈，不過他不批評反而比較奇怪啦！但是剛才從國安局到陸委會，我聽到的就是你們認為這一次，它後來是趨緩或者用「克制」這兩個字，你們認為原因是什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我想這個軍演的目的，從他們理解賴總統的520講話，從他們的角度來講，他們的解讀是認為520的講話是他們不喜歡的，所以試圖以這樣來表示不滿，但是因為目前的兩岸局勢牽涉到非常多的因素，我認為他們是需要在一個可控的狀況之下。"],["王委員定宇：它要可控，我結束我這一段質詢，我認為要可控，跟國際的安全網絡、國際的因素有沒有關係？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有關係，兩岸關係從來就是要放在國際的角度去理解。"],["王委員定宇：OK，這個問題我們有機會再繼續探討，但是我覺得這一個區間，519、520一直到524，還有後續的發展，我要提醒國安局跟相關單位，其實要好好去判斷它後續的發展，因為誤判是現代社會最大的風險。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：如果做好正確判斷，也許會有一些不一樣的機會，好，謝謝。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：下面請馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.30096875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.52846875,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.493468750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.269718750000003,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.78409375,"end":64.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.77596875,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.52659375,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.92721875000001,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.97346875000001,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.31909375000001,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.36971875,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.84534375,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.83659375,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.88721875,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.61284375000001,"end":83.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.42221875,"end":97.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.54721875,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.24659375,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.86659375,"end":106.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.95096875,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.96784375,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.98471875000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.02971875,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.56971875,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.67096875000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.54409375,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.67346875000001,"end":128.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.89659375000002,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.76971875,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.95534375,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.71471875,"end":139.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.84971875000002,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.34659375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.03409375,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.02534375000002,"end":145.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.08784375000002,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.12159375000002,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.14596875,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.76159375,"end":157.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.79534375,"end":158.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.13659375,"end":161.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.36409375000002,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.95471875,"end":167.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.59971875000002,"end":170.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16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這個比較奇特在中國的對台軍演期間"},{"start":29.835,"end":44.104,"text":"那他有一艘4463噸級的聯合起瑞號在東海沉沒那個區域是在他對台軍演的區域外大概在浙江的舟山的東北角這個位置"},{"start":44.904,"end":63.361,"text":"那這個拖船是半潛式的,它屬於錠毛拖船,那主要工作是在打撈或者是拖重型的船隻。那5月24號7點02分,它突然間大轉彎,降速,然後大概花了一個小時的時間AIS就不見了。"},{"start":65.814,"end":83.066,"text":"國安局對這個事情有沒有一些判斷?對,我們有注意到這件事情。對,一來是時間的敏感性,那二來是他沉默的水域,也正如委員所講的,我們在比對之後發現是他在演習的區域的外面。那至於事故的原因我們還在了解。這個是屬於資源型傳知,因為這種半層潛勢的船,"},{"start":88.456,"end":94.457,"text":"對,原因我們還在了解所以確實沉在那裡是有這個沉船的事件那他這個船沉船之後中國那邊有沒有什麼異常的局面有,他們有進行一些相關的打撈那事實上在"},{"start":117.523,"end":118.644,"text":"那這個無人機應該是從船艦上起飛的?"},{"start":140.387,"end":140.707,"text":"海底的水文"},{"start":161.401,"end":187.182,"text":"地形、地貌,那個其實都重要的軍事資料所以今天,你剛才講的那一架無人機是在今天早上掉下來?不不不,前幾天,在演習之前在演習當中嘛對,演習前幾天掉了,但我們還是有注意到,我們還是有注意到那他們也是把那個區域沒有封鎖,他就派海調船到周邊去巡邏,把他找出來所以你們現在目前還在判斷到底發生什麼事情?對那我問一個更早之前的啦2023年8月22號"},{"start":190.544,"end":214.812,"text":"當時是英國的每日郵報他引述了英國政府資訊當然這個引述是否為真我覺得要查證但當時包含美國包含英國包含一些智庫人說中國一艘093型也就是雙級的核子動力潛艇在他們黃海軍演的時候突然間不見了"},{"start":215.865,"end":231.152,"text":"然後呢也在中國內部傳出說一堆家屬說該回港了怎麼沒有休假都沒回來後來他們艦隊的司令也受到懲處當然理由不會用這個當理由當時也有美國的專門測核訊號的"},{"start":234.454,"end":253.61,"text":"相關的偵察機貼近飛行到那個區域那個是在2023年8月22號中共的黃海軍演這一艘商級的093核子動力潛艇後來一直到現在這件事情都沒有任何新的進度至少我看到的是沒有國安局有沒有去了解這個事情"},{"start":255.063,"end":270.46,"text":"好,老實講有啦,有了解啦。然後,大概的判斷是,應該不是嚴重的沉船事件,但有發生一些事故。因為這艘船,動九山的這艘商級潛艦,它的後續的位置我們都有掌握。"},{"start":271.841,"end":300.524,"text":"講到這裡就好了,你後面不能講太多所以事實上中國對台軍演窮兵獨舞當然讓人家厭惡任何人威脅到我們家園的人,我們不會高興的就像我們在住家的時候有人會去擒保權,有人會設巡邏箱有人會加護聯防,有人會設區巡守隊其實國家跟家園差不多就是我們怕有流氓來威脅我們家嘛所以怎麼提高自我防衛能力"},{"start":301.224,"end":324.163,"text":"怎麼樣提高預警能力然後有狀況的時候有好鄰居可以來幫忙有公權力可以介入中國這樣子的灰色地帶的壓迫或者是軍事威脅從韓國、日本、台灣到旅送島、菲律賓甚至連澳洲的達爾文港的北邊都有發生類似的情形所以"},{"start":325.264,"end":346.309,"text":"這樣子的軍演損人不利己那中國想不開他的事情我們還是要做好這件事情我接下來就教這一次的軍演因為我們今天國防部沒有來那中國動用兵力的狀況也就是說規模科目還有他軍演的強度國安局的評估是什麼"},{"start":347.157,"end":370.688,"text":"對,我們就兵力規模來看,並沒有比2023的聯合力艦或2022八月的培洛西訪台的聯合軍演來的大。他這一次有沒有實彈?好像沒有。沒有實彈。沒有實彈啊?對,跟我們說明一下,他這一次沒有實彈。因為俄羅斯那一次,他還發射11枚有2枚在架上,9枚就掉到,5枚掉到日本的EEZ上面。"},{"start":372.368,"end":377.551,"text":"這次的規模、科目跟強度,我是要聽聽國安局你們情報單位的分析。兵力規模沒有比較大,範圍有比較廣,因為就裴若曦當時訪台的軍演大概劃了五個所謂的進航區,那這一次是有九個的演訓區。"},{"start":391.598,"end":392.318,"text":"所以你剛才講的是強度"},{"start":417.392,"end":442.298,"text":"看很明顯強度跟以往是不一樣的但是規模呢?因為它是由東部戰區宣布的規模沒有比較大所以動用的兵力也比較小對,然後也沒有實彈的射擊那演習的天數也比較短它增加的區域大概是外離島反介入、拒止還有一些外離島的部分那它在外離島的部分有沒有什麼樣實質的軍事行動?"},{"start":444.338,"end":473.368,"text":"主要是動用了海巡的編組編隊有在外離島周邊做一些所謂的執法巡查的動作所以這是比起過去演習比較沒有科目有沒有什麼不一樣科目差不多科目主要還是做聯合封控聯合火力打擊聯合的巨子外軍以及聯合登陸作戰但是在這一次的聯合登陸作戰他投入的這個運作比較小只有在東部有一個比較小規模的操演"},{"start":473.988,"end":482.724,"text":"所以你們判斷起來他這一次的強度規模動用兵力都明顯比以往低就國安局的研判"},{"start":486.53,"end":508.644,"text":"對,謝謝委員提到這個問題,就是說在軍事上我們剛剛講到有幾個特點,第一個特點是他快速地動員這次的演習,第二個特點是在於他動用了海警船隻的編隊來做相關的演訓,那第三個特點我剛才也跟其他委員提到了,爭議訊息的操作在這兩天非常非常的頻密,那這大概是在軍事上恫嚇的一個主要的動作,"},{"start":509.104,"end":537.538,"text":"我現在從俄烏戰爭也看得出來假錯訊息搞不好比飛彈先行是它會伴隨著這個是hybrid warfare是是是作戰嘛我請梁文傑副主委一起上來我待會也一定問啦所以你們的判斷你繼續說對那這大概是這一次軍事演習的主要的一個樣態那我們後續會比較關注的是在於這種海上灰色地帶的操作會不會也變成是常態化因為在東海以及在南海"},{"start":537.938,"end":565.854,"text":"那中共的這些海警或公務船隻他確實有這種海涉岸灰色地帶的操作你們政治上的判斷是什麼政治上的判斷我剛也跟委員提到因為他這一次的演習的時間比較短然後沒有實彈然後又沒有化射進航區所以他也有在做一些必要的風險的控管那做這個風險控管的目的是不希望情勢過度的激化或升高而引發了國際社會更強力的支持台灣所以這一次有稍微比較克制一點感覺上是這樣"},{"start":566.674,"end":585.069,"text":"對那個梁文傑副主委就是說這一次那個局長可以先請回啦我最後請教因為我這邊這個網友也整理了中共黨政軍也就是他們的媒體他媒體大概就是一條一條邊啦大概聲量那個聲調都差不多啦剛才循著剛才的問題從他這一次"},{"start":587.451,"end":602.058,"text":"對臺軍演的規模、科目強度不若以往然後我們再看看他的黨政軍官媒的回應陸委會怎麼評估中共在520我們總統交接之後他的反應你們有什麼樣判斷"},{"start":604.807,"end":619.575,"text":"他的反應應該是逐步增強的就是說在520當天之後然後當天晚上應該是就由國台辦發言人這邊來發出一個新聞稿那之後就是21號、22號"},{"start":625.188,"end":650.864,"text":"連續的國台辦的新聞稿然後有人民日報的評論新華社的評論等等然後到23號就開始演習那所以你剛才講的逐步增強是指這個區間嗎520到524嗎對那在後續我們陸委會的判斷呢應該是這樣講就是說它的文攻跟武嚇的部分基本上我們看到的是到524之後"},{"start":652.848,"end":677.316,"text":"算是有趨緩的現象那當然今天禮拜三是國台辦的記者會現在正在開那所以又開始做了一些批評但是我們認為現在的這個批評大概就是重複上個禮拜的國台辦大概還是老調重談不過他不批評反而比較奇怪但我剛才從國安局到陸委會"},{"start":678.657,"end":685.651,"text":"聽到了就是認為這一次他後來是趨緩或者用克制這兩個字是你們認為原因是什麼"},{"start":687.118,"end":713.173,"text":"我想他的這個軍演的目的當然是屬於對他就是從他們理解的這個賴總統的520講話他們是對他從他們的角度來講他們的解讀是認為520的講話是他們不喜歡的那所以試圖要這樣來表示不滿但是因為目前的兩岸局勢他牽涉到非常多的因素所以這個"},{"start":715.854,"end":734.46,"text":"我認為他們是需要在一個可控的狀況之下他要可控我結束我這一段質詢要可控跟國際的安全網絡國際的因素有沒有關係當然有關係兩岸關係從來就是要放在國際的角度去理解的這個問題我們有機會繼續探討但是我覺得這一個區間519、520一直到524還有後續的發展"},{"start":741.843,"end":754.56,"text":"我要提醒國安局跟相關單位其實要好好去判斷它後續的發展因為誤判是現代社會最大的風險如果做好正確判斷也許會有一些不一樣的機會好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13311f8e95cbe5014678d0e137800dc086eaa3ee6acdf2d5e9870c7a3ba716382fef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:50:20 - 10:59:27","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":547,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:59:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:50:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時50分）謝謝主席，有請核安會陳主委，還有經濟部林次長。"],["主席：好，請主委跟次長，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：林委員好。"],["林次長全能：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：大家好。我想依照環境基本法第二十三條的精神，政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園的目標，除了本於環境保護的精神，我們本來就應該要逐步降低對核能發電的使用，最後核電歸零。而面對臺灣現在核電廠已經實質除役或即將除役的情形，本席認為倡議現有核電廠延役繼續發電，我覺得不但短視近利，而且他們忽略各種龐大且深不可測的成本。","怎麼說？有不少支持臺灣現在不應該放棄核電的人士，常常用國際的標準說核電是乾淨的能源，作為論述的資料，可是本席認為核能發電完全無法符合綠電的概念，所以我認為核電不等於綠電。在核廢料沒有獲得妥善處置的前提之下，核電就是不正義的能源，就是不永續的能源，即便核能發電屬於相對低碳排，可是我們要興建核能廢料處置設施，也會產生很大的碳排，而且最重要的是核廢污染對後代的負面影響甚大。用盡所有手段，要求重啟核電，就會製造更多的核廢料、更多的不正義。","我想，要擁核卻又忽視核廢料在貯存上有許多的難處，像是選址的困難，像是現有的燃料池滿載，以及長期貯放場規劃的時程還很長等等問題。這就好比你生了一個孩子，你只想玩他，可是又不想生養他，不管也不處理他的吃喝拉撒等等，這很顯然的，就是忽視核廢料處置的人很不負責任的概念。","如果除役的進程確定，核廢料的數量就會固定不變，我們或許就可以比較具體的來規劃核廢料處置設置的計畫。可是一旦核電廠延役，核廢料就會隨之增加，不僅增加核廢料處置計畫的不確定性，也降低人民對政府處置核廢料的信心，當然也恐怕會增加跟社會溝通的困難。核安會的業務包含核廢料的監管，延役顯然會導致核廢料問題，更欠缺社會共識，並且更難解決。要請教主委跟次長，你們是否同意核電廠延役確實將造成更難解決的核廢料問題？"],["陳主任委員東陽：誠如委員講的，延役當然會使核廢料逐漸增加，會增加將來處理的複雜跟難度。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，所以次長也同意？"],["林次長全能：我想生產就一定產生廢料，廢料的貯存目前是一個很複雜的問題，我同意。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，接下來想要討論，之所以有人要擁核，讓核電廠延役，他們的理由是有助穩定電價，可是這種觀點，我覺得他就忽略了延役過程中為了確保機組的運作安全跟效率，需要進行機組更新的成本問題，這個都沒有想過。除了機組更新的成本，核安的措施也是成本之一。尤其在臺灣是被複合式災害威脅的島嶼，我們有颱風，我們有地震這種天災，所以安全性的問題真的不容忽視。","簡言之，機組的更新跟安全的維護兩者資金的投入，應該會相當的可觀，不能單看電價相對低的觀點來切入而已。關於機組更新跟維護成本這個部分，核安會跟經濟部是否有審慎的評估過，確切大約會是什麼樣的數字？"],["林次長全能：委員，我是不是可以請台電來回應？"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["許副總理理永輝：這部分牽涉到設備的更新還有安全這一塊，所以目前這個數字，委員講的沒有錯，的確是龐大。"],["林委員宜瑾：是一個非常龐大的數字，所以也還沒有辦法估出這麼龐大的數字大約會是多少？"],["許副總理理永輝：是，目前來講還沒有估出來。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK。我想沒有人希望核災發生，我現在想就教主委，在核子事故緊急應變計畫的疏散規劃裡，我們是以8公里內在籍人數3萬人為考量，而不是考量非在籍實居的工作人口十幾萬人，這是否會低估疏散的時間以及救護跟安置的需求？","以恆春核三廠聯外道路的台26線來看，遇到春假、寒暑假或大型活動，最近幾年幾乎都有差不多超過26萬人出入墾丁的臺灣祭。遇到這樣的情形，主委你會有更進一步或規劃更細緻的緊急應變計畫嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：緊急應變計畫是在電廠8公里之內，我們叫EPZ Zone，就是緊急應變區域。對於流動的人口，我們沒有辦法即時掌握，特別是觀光客，就像委員提到的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這一部分當然有不確定性。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以我覺得你們在規劃中其實還要再加入這些，因為像核三廠所在地恆春，觀光客的數量確實是龐大的，特別遇到一些假日，如果在特別的假日發生任何的核災問題，你們這個應變計畫就要更週延一點。","另外，依據核三廠地震危害與篩選報告，核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層，西側外海又有所謂的逆衝斷層，廠內核島區底下的淺層地質又發現剪裂與背斜等地層變形，地表的加速度可達1.384G。我想不僅是三座核電廠最高，也超過核三廠可以安全停機的耐震程度0.72G。所以本席認為當初就已經缺乏詳細資料來評估而不當選址，陸續研究出來這些地質的事證，更是不支持核電廠繼續在這裡運作。有這樣的潛在風險，在燃料棒都還在廠內貯存的情況之下，還需要哪些廠區的安全補強措施？補強措施需要多久的時間？請問主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：關於這個部分，其實我們最近做SSHAC Level 3，報告正在台電，我們會來檢視，後續如果有必要，會再做進一步補強。但是在更低的加速度時，其實我們有一個安全自動緊急關閉的裝置。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，最後本席要重申立場，我堅決反對老舊核電廠延役，也反對任何為延役或重啟開後門的修法。我想核能涉及專業的評估，絕非政治的操作，不要讓今天的決定成為明天的困境，以上。謝謝主委，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，我們就先休息5分鐘。謝謝。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.16909375,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.45846875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":20.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.719718750000002,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.19596875000002,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.92596875,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.56534375,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.58221875,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.61596875,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.35409375,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.44659375,"end":229.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.90596875000003,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.00846875,"end":308.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.62784375,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.26346875,"end":321.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.87096875000003,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":328.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.06471875,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.16534375000003,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.95409375,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.97096875,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.69221875,"end":383.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.05096875000004,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.26909375,"end":406.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.97721875,"end":398.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.06909375000004,"end":404.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.44409375000004,"end":409.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.57034375,"end":413.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.92409375000005,"end":495.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.83096875,"end":519.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.47721875,"end":521.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.9072187500001,"end":547.16909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":13.636,"text":"質詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席有請河安會陳楚偉還有經濟部林次長好我們請主委跟次長謝謝"},{"start":17.495,"end":35.822,"text":"林委員好委員好大家好我想依照環境基本法第二三條的精神政府應訂定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標除了本與環境保護的精神我們本來就應該要逐步降低對核能發電的使用最後核電歸零"},{"start":37.122,"end":40.563,"text":"而在面對台灣現在的核電廠已經實質除役或即將除役的情形本席認為倡議現有核電廠延役繼續發電我覺得不但短視近利而且他們忽略了各種龐大而且深不可測的成本怎麼說"},{"start":59.787,"end":80.486,"text":"﹗"},{"start":80.586,"end":81.046,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":106.886,"end":127.605,"text":"最重要的還是核廢污染是對後代的負面影響影響甚大所以用盡所謂的手段要要求重啟核電就會製造更多的核廢料更多的不正義那我想要擁核卻又忽視核廢料在儲存上有許多的難處"},{"start":128.626,"end":129.666,"text":"這就是很顯然的你忽視了核廢料的處置的人就好像真的很不負責任"},{"start":159.312,"end":183.375,"text":"的這種概念好那如果說除役的進程確定那核廢料的數量就會固定不變那我們或許就可以比較具體的來規劃核廢料處置設置的計畫可是一旦核電廠延役那核廢料就會隨之增加那不僅增加核廢料處置計畫的不確定性也降低人民對政府喔"},{"start":183.835,"end":209.325,"text":"主持核廢料信心當然又恐怕會增加跟社會溝通的困難所以核安會的業務當然包含核廢料的監管那延役顯然會導致核廢料問題更欠缺的社會共識並且更難解決所以要請教主委跟次長你們是否同意核電廠延役確實將造成更難解決的核廢料問題"},{"start":213.407,"end":220.492,"text":"陳主委員講的那個延役當然這個核廢料會逐漸增加然後那麼這個會增加這個將來處理的複雜跟難度"},{"start":225.632,"end":248.171,"text":"所以次長也同意我想生產就一定產生廢料嘛那廢料儲存現在目前是一個很複雜的問題我同意好那接下來想要討論說那之所以有人要擁核核電廠延役當然他們理由是說有助穩定電價可是這種觀點我覺得他就忽略了延役過程中他為了確保他的機組能"},{"start":249.292,"end":249.592,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":277.162,"end":298.698,"text":"所以簡言之基組的更新跟安全的維護兩者的基金的投入應該會相當的可觀這個不能單看說電價相對低的這個觀點來切入而已所以關於基組的更新跟維護的成本這個部分核安會跟經濟部是否有審慎的這個評估過那確切會是大約什麼樣的數字"},{"start":306.032,"end":308.594,"text":"我可不可以請我們台電這邊來回應一下這部分牽扯到設備的更新還有安全的這一塊所以目前來講這個數字跟委員講的沒有錯的確是龐大所以一個非常龐大的數字所以還沒有辦法估出這麼龐大的數字會大約多少目前來講是還沒有估出來"},{"start":331.772,"end":349.5,"text":"我想沒有人希望核災發生所以我現在想就叫主委就是說在核子事故緊急應變計畫的疏散規劃裡頭我們是以8公里內在籍人數3萬人為考量而不是考量非在籍實居的這種工作人口十幾萬人"},{"start":350.62,"end":377.657,"text":"那這個是否會低估他的疏散的時間以及救護跟安置的需求我們用核三廠核村的恆春的那個聯外道路只有台26線來看遇到春假或寒暑假或大型的活動他這近幾年都幾乎有差不多超過26萬人出入墾丁的這種台灣記如果遇到這樣的情形你會有更進一步或更"},{"start":378.857,"end":406.537,"text":"規劃更細緻的這個所謂的應變緊急的應變計畫嗎?主委這個緊急應變計畫是在電廠8公里之內我們叫EPZROM就是緊急應變的區域那當然對於流動的人口我們是沒有辦法去及時來掌握因為特別是觀光客就像委員提到的所以這一部分當然"},{"start":407.56,"end":433.205,"text":"有不確定性所以我覺得你們在規劃中其實還要再加入這些對 因為你說像核三廠所在立的這個恆春它的這個觀光客的數量確實是龐大的特別遇到一些特別的這個假日所以如果說在特別的假日然後發生了任何的核災的問題那你們這個應變計畫就要更周延一點"},{"start":434.285,"end":447.114,"text":"另外我想依據核三廠這個地震危害跟篩選報告核三廠東側緊鄰核村的這個活動的斷層那西側外海又有所謂的逆沖斷層那場內的這個核島區底下的這個淺層地質又發現有簡列跟被寫的地層變形那地表的加速度可達1.384G"},{"start":459.922,"end":460.102,"text":"林宜瑾"},{"start":479.989,"end":480.029,"text":"主委﹗"},{"start":497.935,"end":518.587,"text":"這個部分其實我們最近做那個Shake Level 3那麼報告正在台電那麼我們會來檢視那後續如果有必要會再做進一步的補強但是在更低的這個加速度的時候其實我們會有安全自動"},{"start":519.628,"end":519.848,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331e3caca824cef0ef3db3ca66b34e87331a3ee6acdf2d5e987d506cc573e17a0395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:47:27 - 10:56:28","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":27,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-27"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:56:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:47:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時47分）謝謝主席，主席，我先請衛福部的代表。"],["主席：請衛福部代表。"],["林委員思銘：是心理健康司的李炳樟李技正是不是？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：首先請教你，衛福部強化社會安全網第二期計畫的重點，包含了補強精神衛生社區體系與社區支援的支持服務，還有設置社區心理衛生中心71處、精神障礙者協作模式服務據點49處，以及加強司法精神醫療服務設置司法精神病房6處及醫院1處。目前依照這個第二期的計畫，計畫執行的成效如何？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的71處心衛中心，目前全國已經佈建了48處，到明年應該可以達成71處的目標，今年是要達到53處，我們都朝這個目標來做。補助各縣市的關懷訪視人力，我們也都朝分年來補助進用，大概目前的進用率以今年的補助人力來看的話，我們都要求地方政府進用人力的目標數要達到補助人力的85%。有關司法精神醫院跟病房的佈建進度，誠如法務部的書面報告一樣，我們希望在明年二期計畫結束前能夠完成醫院300床跟病房180床的建置，以上。"],["林委員思銘：行政院在2020年就召開了跨部會的會議，就是由臺灣高檢署來編列34.6億元的預算，規劃在全臺設置6處各30床的司法精神病院就是180床。另外成立一個達300床的司法精神病院，目標是在明年總共要達到480床。目前整個預算的執行率是如何？那時候總共編列了34.6億元，這個預算的執行成效是怎樣？是逐年編列還是怎麼樣？還是一次就到位？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：沒有，我們就是分年編列預算來執行，因為每個醫院有分期的進度，病房也是分階段來……"],["林委員思銘：所以你現在說規劃在全臺設置6處180床，那目前執行了幾床？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：目前南部地區有55床已經開放全數在使用，預計今年會完成北區跟東區，明年完成中部的就可以達到原先設定目標180床的規模。"],["林委員思銘：在明年就可以達到？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：對。"],["林委員思銘：300床的精神病院這部分呢？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：目前也如期在施作，我們也是朝明年完工啟用的目標。"],["林委員思銘：明年絕對可以完工？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：我們希望可以，因為目前有缺工、缺料的問題，我們在克服。"],["林委員思銘：因為我們看到媒體有報導，他說司法精神醫院原定在今年3月要揭幕，但是因為鄰避效應，土地還有建物受到證照取得受阻導致無法營運，所以這個問題有解決嗎？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：有，跟委員報告，目前已經都一一克服，我們跟法務部還有在行政院的指導下已經一一克服。"],["林委員思銘：所以現在這個精神病院正在興建中？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：是的。"],["林委員思銘：也會如期的在明年就開幕來使用？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：如果按照廠商的施工進度來看的話，我們是期待明年能夠完成啟用。"],["林委員思銘：所以鄰避效應這些問題都已經獲得解決，都沒有問題了？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：目前有提問的我們都一一克服。"],["林委員思銘：是，都一一克服？如何克服可以請教一下嗎？會不會這種問題一直到你建好之後又有人來抗爭？因為據我的經驗，我新竹這邊也有一個精神病院的設置，就是你剛才講的精神病床的設置、社區的精神醫療中心。結果所有的住戶全部反彈，造成很難設置！所以這個問題就是你現在預期要去建精神病床、精神醫院的這個問題，有關於鄰避效應的問題有充分獲得溝通解決了嗎？"],["李簡任技正炳樟：有，我們都有跨部會跟中央、地方政府的溝通我們都有在做。"],["林委員思銘：好，希望你們計畫的執行一定要達到你原先預計的成果。"],["李簡任技正炳樟：是，當然當然。"],["林委員思銘：好，你請回，我請部長。"],["李簡任技正炳樟：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：請教部長，目前全國執行監護處分的總共有多少人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：224人。"],["林委員思銘：目前收治分配的情況如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我這邊有資料，整個收治分配的情形刑前的是51人，刑後的是173人；有拘束人身自由的是184人，沒有拘束的就是比較輕微的這部分是有40人，分佈在各個地方。另外有部分比較中高的這部分已經到南區去做收治。"],["林委員思銘：南區的是高雄的凱旋醫院。我剛才跟衛福部討教之後我們大概知道，其實我們不管是病床數或者是精神醫院都還沒有建置完成，所以在病房數的這個數量還沒有達到量能的時候，我們要如何解決這些收治的問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前的話因為……"],["林委員思銘：是送一般的精神醫療機構嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是有些是我們簽約的這些醫院，那一定有病房、病床才有辦法，因為每個都要有一個病床，現在是簽約的醫院，有精神科的這些醫療醫院。"],["林委員思銘：所以會送到那邊去？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，就是他要簽約，有些是如果轄區有的我們就盡量在轄區，另外轄區沒有的就……"],["林委員思銘：好，你是這樣子來收治。我再請教部長，這種一般精神醫療機構病房的安全維護，跟精神病院病房的安全維護設施有沒有什麼不同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的安全維護設施的話我們去檢視，因為這些受監護人跟暫時安置人是有一些的攻擊性，精神有一些狀況，當然我們這部分有做一些安全維護。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我會問你這個問題就是上次受監護處分的人脫逃，他就是從一般精神醫療機構脫逃。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們如何讓一般的精神醫療機構的安全維護，達到跟專業收治的精神醫療機構的安全維護一樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們那個屬於剛才委員提到的，就是我們規劃建置的這些司法精神醫院的人力，像我們這些的安全維護人力幾乎是一比一，所以30床我們是規劃29人。"],["林委員思銘：那一般的呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：一般的話我們就是得設，沒有做強制的要求。"],["林委員思銘：安全維護設施，安全維護的一個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是他們醫院也就是要另外聘請這些……"],["林委員思銘：找保全？"],["鄭部長銘謙：保全來處理。"],["林委員思銘：其實法務部或者是相關的機構，就是執行機關，並沒有安排維護的人力去維護？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們沒有強制的規定，這個是強度不同。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我聽到我很訝異，因為我想這部分不能等閒視之，所以我還是希望法務部還是有這個責任，我們把人安置在一般的醫療機構來收治的話，在安全維護上面我也希望法務部要負一份責任來加強好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，我們再加強，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請范雲委員、范雲委員、范雲委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","好，我們請林思銘委員先暫時代理主席。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：現在處理臨時提案一案，請宣讀。","案由：","行政院於110年7月29日核定「強化社會安全網第二期計畫」（110-114年），各部會分工執行，並規劃增設司法精神病房及司法精神醫院。其中開設收治受監護處分人之司法精神病房由衛生福利部推動，法務部則負責「精進監護處分」。又監護處分於110年修法理由提及，目的是藉由監督、保護及治療之方法，一方面消極的將精神病犯與社會隔離，另一方面則積極的加以治療，期以能重返家庭與適應社會生活之特殊處分，目標是在於協助復歸社會。","稽之法務部今日（5月29日）報告針對「轉銜機制」，表示「於監護處分期間屆滿前，由檢察機關召開轉銜會議，將受處分人轉銜予當地衛生、警政、社會福利、教育、勞動主管機關等，由主管機關依權責提供受處分人就醫、就業、就學、就養、心理治療、心理諮商及其他社區照顧服務，以無縫接軌建構完整社會安全網」。然，該報告未加以說明「轉銜」復歸社會的具體作為，以及法務部負責之「精進監護處分」實際執行成效如何，究否如實建構社會安全網，難以判斷執行成果是否正向。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於二個月內，提供111至112年間之監護處分執行報告，內容須併含：","1.遭宣告監護處分者之疾病類型、性別、年齡、福利身分（如低收入戶、持有身心障礙證明、老人等）、遭監護宣告之人所犯罪名、是否為同樣罪名再犯之情形，及監護處分宣告執行方法，係至住院治療、門診治療、親屬監護或其他適當之處遇等方式進行分析。","2.轉銜機制之具體作為，包括轉銜評估標準、轉銜單位、後續追蹤情形，及預防再犯之措施。","以充分了解修法後，近年監護處分執行現況。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　羅智強"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請吳宗憲委員做提案說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。有關這個部分主要也是因為我們討論到精神疾病患者犯法之後的一些管理及處遇方面的問題，尤其是之前有精神疾病患者逃脫之後造成社會上的恐慌，所以這一塊我覺得我們要開始回過頭去注意一下，這段時間法務部在強化社會安全網第二期計畫裡面到底做了哪些事情，以及與衛福部之間的合作狀況。這部分我們希望法務部能夠在3個月內提供111年到112年的監護處分執行報告，內容我們希望能夠包括到監護處分者的疾病類型、性別、年齡，還有遭監護宣告之人的犯罪罪名是哪些，以及有沒有再犯的問題。還有一些有關於監護處分宣告的執行方法、住院治療、門診治療或者是親屬監護或其他適當的處遇方式進行分析。","另外，我們也希望能夠提供轉銜機制的具體作為，包括評估標準、轉銜單位後續追蹤的情況，以及預防再犯。希望法務部提供給我們這些資料，不要讓前幾天五月十幾號讓全臺灣民眾都非常恐慌的事情再發生，我想這是法務部一定要做到的責任，所以我提出這個臨時提案，請法務部能夠提供我們相關的資料。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。請問法務部，對這個提案有沒有什麼意見？請補充報告。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我們同意修正後的版本，謝謝。"],["主席：臨時提案照修正後的版本通過。","接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 暫行安\n置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.160343750000003,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.73784375,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.72909375,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.88471875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.49221875,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.59721875,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.617843750000002,"end":51.735968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.419093750000002,"end":27.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.20846875,"end":56.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.76471875,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.65471875,"end":104.47034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.20971875000001,"end":71.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.16659375,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.01971875000001,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.81971875000002,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.71284375000002,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.66159375,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.45784375000002,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.64971875,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.66659375,"end":172.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.35721875000002,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.37409375000001,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.26846875,"end":181.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.77471875,"end":182.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.51721875,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.49971875,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.62096875,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.08909375000002,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.91159375,"end":205.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.10846875000001,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.89159375000003,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.03909375,"end":218.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.05596875,"end":218.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.17409375000003,"end":224.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.29971875,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.60221875000002,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.59284375000001,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.60971875,"end":238.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.62659375,"end":246.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.99659375000002,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.50596875000002,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.24596875000003,"end":271.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.02909375,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.19721875,"end":292.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.07409375000003,"end":291.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.99784375,"end":297.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.23784375,"end":296.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.25471875,"end":297.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.15659375,"end":303.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.19034375,"end":304.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.28721875,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.99534375,"end":310.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.05409375,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.02784375000005,"end":324.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.42846875000004,"end":318.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.84096875,"end":325.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.27096875,"end":334.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.35034375000004,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.74659375000005,"end":334.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.79721875,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.23596875000004,"end":343.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.80846875000003,"end":344.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.58471875000004,"end":351.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.85784375000003,"end":356.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.98409375,"end":354.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.05534375,"end":378.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.63846875,"end":378.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.34721875,"end":381.45659375}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我們大概知道說其實我們還整個不管是病床數或者是精神醫院也都還沒有建設完成所以在病房數的數量還沒有達到它的量能的時候我們要如何解決收支的這些收支的問題"},{"start":379.446,"end":406.485,"text":"那目前的話,因為...是送一般的精神醫療機構嗎?就是有些是我們簽約的這些的醫院,那一定有病房,病床才有,因為每個都要有一個病床嘛那現在是簽約的醫院在指定有精神科的這些醫療...所以我們會送到那邊去?對,就還要簽約,那有些是如果下去有的,那我們再盡量再下去另外沒有下去就跨下去你是這樣子來收治嗎?那我再請教部長"},{"start":407.125,"end":421.302,"text":"那這種一般精神醫療機構的病房的安全維護我想跟我們精神病院的病房的安全維護設施這有沒有什麼不同"},{"start":424.081,"end":446.712,"text":"這部分的安全維護當然我們這部分的安全維護設施的話我們去檢視因為確實是這些受監護人跟暫時安置人他是有一些的攻擊性的精神的有一些的狀況當然我們這部分有做一些的安全維護部長我會問你這個問題就是說我們上次受監護處分人脫逃他就是從一般精神醫療機構來脫逃對所以"},{"start":449.733,"end":476.551,"text":"我們如果把就是說一般的精神醫療機構他的一個安全的維護啊要達到跟我們這個專業的收治的精神醫療機構他的安全會不會要一樣啊我們那個屬於剛才我有提到的就是我們規劃建置的這些司法精神醫院的人力像我們這些的安全維護能力我們幾乎是1比1啊幾乎是1比1所以變成30床我們是規劃是29人"},{"start":478.973,"end":479.253,"text":"法務部部長"},{"start":501.016,"end":505.239,"text":"執行機關並沒有去安排維護的人力去維護沒有強制這樣的規定這個是強度不同"},{"start":513.566,"end":532.133,"text":"法務部長我聽到我很訝異因為我想這部分不能等閒置之所以我還是希望說法務部還是有這個責任對我們把人安置在一般的醫療機構來收治的話在安全維護上面我也希望能夠法務部要負一份責任來加強"},{"start":540.23,"end":540.25,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331e3caca824cef0ef3243e47098157e4f6a3ee6acdf2d5e987cf090c686565d07c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:47:27 - 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這個經費可見就是不夠嘛所以另外呢部長我還想要請問你公糧收購的價格公糧收購您在520之前說520之後會定案請問您最後的決定如何可不可以在這裡做下一個記錄"},{"start":335.337,"end":350.407,"text":"我想到目前為止我們正在做更完整的一個配套的一個措施我想我們委員跟我們農業部其實目標是一致的就是希望我們的稻農希望我們農民所得能夠提高能夠確保"},{"start":351.468,"end":352.528,"text":"您說要提供公糧收購價格是提供這個農民收入的一個辦法但不是最好的辦法"},{"start":369.474,"end":381.208,"text":"你要鼓勵農民去做氣做生產去做品牌去經營市場我不是不理解不是不了解你的看法但是我有一個感覺你知道臺語有一句話叫做就是說拿公糧收購來"},{"start":386.154,"end":392.037,"text":"形容這個部長的看法我想就是你鼓勵去企作嘗試去做品牌經營市場這個都是利益良好的事情但你有沒有想到說有更多的農民尤其是傳統慣性農業的農民他們只仰賴保駕收購當作是一個底線本席今天就是在替這些最弱勢沒有能力去經營品牌"},{"start":411.109,"end":411.129,"text":"部長："},{"start":431.921,"end":440.303,"text":"我想我能夠充分的瞭解委員所提到的照顧這些大概10%全部繳公糧的這些稻農但是相對的當我們去看這個產業的時候我們要看整體的產業的進步性是當然了但是公糧收購價格跟契作價格是聯動的公糧收購價格提高契作價格也會提高鼓勵農民契作跟提高公糧收購價格其實是沒有衝突的除非你的立場是要保護糧商"},{"start":461.627,"end":462.707,"text":"現在保護糧商不要花更多的錢去買這才是問題所在嗎?假設這個期做的價格是高的"},{"start":480.652,"end":501.946,"text":"就算公糧收購價格提高了也不影響企作所以看待一件事情其實是有很多面向的一個政策當然會有利有弊人家說在人在公門好修行部長看向企作品牌稻米產業時請你也要同時兼顧最底層最基層的這些稻農的生計"},{"start":502.566,"end":502.586,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133129da332109551f68d0e137800dc086ea333bc5d453e1b195ce221ba616d86ab85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:41:39 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10:50:11","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":512,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:50:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:41:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時41分）謝謝主席。我請核安會主委及經濟部次長。"],["主席：好，請主委跟次長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。首先請教主委，大家都很關心的核一廠乾貯場終於在卡關了11年之後，在這個月5月10日，核一廠的乾貯水土保持計畫終於獲得了新北市政府審查的核定。接下來大家就關心核定之後到啟用中間，目前我們還需要進行哪些工作？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分請台電說明，可以講得比較詳細。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來講，只要新北市的逕流廢水核可以後，我們下個月就會進行邊坡的補強工作，預定大概3個月可以完成。完成以後，有所謂的冷測試跟熱測試都要做；整個測試完成以後，最後還要送核安會的安全審查這關，大概到明年去了。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後還要送到核安會做安全審查。"],["許副總經理永輝：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：核一廠在新北，雙北也是生活圈，我們委員會其實也有新北市的立委，我是臺北市的立委，安全是非常的重要。以剛剛這樣來估算，這個水土保持改善的工程要先進行，你說要做熱測試，然後是安全測試，可能有好幾種項目。"],["許副總經理永輝：對，是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：是不是還要邀請國際廠商來協助進行技轉？"],["許副總經理永輝：有，我們有請美國電力研究院的專家，包括在整個測試過程裡做第三方的查驗。"],["吳委員沛憶：已經開始在洽談了？"],["許副總經理永輝：對，已經在洽談了。"],["吳委員沛憶：整個預計的時間，有沒有一個初估的時程？"],["許副總經理永輝：我們希望在明年3月之前能夠送核安會審查，明年底希望把核一廠反應爐裡的燃料能夠移到乾貯設施。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為卡關了11年，終於有進展，但是安全還是最高的原則。"],["許副總經理永輝：一定、一定！"],["吳委員沛憶：所以請務必要秉持專業來進行安全的把關。"],["許副總經理永輝：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：再來一個問題，就是乾式貯存場也是階段性的，核廢料的最終處置場，剛剛前面葉元之委員也問過，目前看不出選址的地點。當然選址涉及到的還有民意和社會的共識，但是核廢料的最終處置場，我們有沒有持續進行評估？"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來講，先跟委員報告，核燃料的最終處置，其實不是光臺灣遇到這個問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["許副總經理永輝：其實沒有一個縣市願意自願把這個設施設在自家這裡。目前來講，全世界確定的大概只有2個到3個國家：芬蘭、瑞典、法國；另外，截至到今天為止，沒有一個地方正式運轉，全球大概都會遇到這個問題。所以在這個部分，我們台電公司目前對外在做的，大概就是要加強整個國際合作，包括參與芬蘭的試運轉計畫。後面要同時進行的大概就是社會溝通這一塊，也包括立法。因為我們現在必須要有法源的依據，這也是外面公民團體跟台電公司還有經濟部目前在努力的工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：我為什麼問這個問題，請次長來回答？因為這牽涉到我們能源的政策，有句話說「沒有辦法解決核廢料，沒有資格談核電」，這句話是誰說的，你們知道嗎？我們新北市侯友宜市長！"],["林次長全能：我聽過。"],["吳委員沛憶：也就是說，社會上還有不少人對於核能的安全有很大的疑慮，因為核廢料最終處置場，如剛剛台電所回答，目前不是只有臺灣，大部分國家都找不到解決方式，所以請你們務必還是要秉持專業，持續來評估核廢料最終處置場。"],["林次長全能：是，我們一定秉持最專業的方式來最專業的處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：還要請教次長，你有沒有看到一個新聞，5月中的時候美國宣布對俄羅斯一項制裁，就是要禁止進口濃縮鈾，這是一種核燃料。你有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["林次長全能：跟委員坦誠，我沒看過這個新聞。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，你要再去了解。","美國為什麼提出這項制裁呢？因為他們擔心跟俄羅斯進口鈾，會成為俄羅斯進攻烏克蘭作軍事攻擊的資金，所以基於國安的考量，美國下了這個禁止進口令。美國過去高度仰賴俄羅斯進口鈾，比例高達24%，所以他們也開始要做進口替代，加強對美國本土鈾燃料生產的投資。包括英國的智庫皇家聯合軍事研究所也都指出，美國現在對俄羅斯進行進口鈾的制裁，很可能也會變成中國擴大鈾出口的機會。","今天的報告中，我們有討論到小型核電廠，小型核電廠所使用的濃縮鈾，過去只有一家俄羅斯的國營企業有生產，所以我看到美國這個資訊就相當關注。我想未來在評估時，你們要非常清楚了解能源政策，除了能源以外，因為牽涉到燃料的國際供應鏈，勢必也要考量國際的局勢，國際局勢變動，回頭過來有可能影響燃料供應的穩定性，所以國安及安全絕對也是你們要衡量的其中之一。所以請次長去進行了解。"],["林次長全能：是、好，我們會。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後我要請教，我們有一個RE100，企業界希望能夠實現承諾達到100%使用再生能源，臺灣很多廠商都有加入，包括台積電、宏碁、聯電等等。請問次長，RE100目前訂定的時間，希望什麼時候可以達成這個目標？"],["林次長全能：如果沒有記錯，應該是2030年。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。那在RE100裡面，再生能源的定義有沒有包括核電？"],["林次長全能：我想目前沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前沒有嘛！"],["林次長全能：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以說對臺灣，尤其是台積電，大家很關注，因為臺灣這些廠商現在已經是國際市場當中非常關鍵重要的角色，他們會有很多國際的夥伴。他們跟這些國際夥伴在交易的時候，就牽涉到這些大廠的國際承諾，如果它沒有辦法達到，可能會影響它的訂單。請問這些臺灣的廠商有沒有向經濟部提出需求，讓他們能夠提高購買再生能源？"],["林次長全能：國內的這些科技業者，不僅僅是科技業者，很多傳統產業廠商都希望經濟部能擴大再生能源的開發跟供應，我想這是必然的，也是確定的。"],["吳委員沛憶：那我們怎麼提供協助呢？因為時間是2030年，最終要在2040年達到100%的目標，所以廠商必須逐年提升購買再生能源，目前我們怎麼協助臺灣的本土廠商？"],["林次長全能：依照我們現在所規劃的，把最成熟的光電還有離岸風電做最大的開發，另外我們也積極的納入像地熱跟生質能，作為現在潛力比較大的再生能源供應來源，希望盡最大的能力從開源端，就是供應端來提供。另外，綠電的交易，我們也建議一個比較完整的機制，提供這些相關企業購買它所需要的綠電。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，經濟部你們管能源，很重要，你們也管產業，所以務必要協助我們臺灣的廠商能夠進入國際市場，要持續提升供應他們再生能源的需求。次長繼續努力，好不好？"],["林次長全能：是、好，我們會努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。接下來請林宜瑾委員。","在林宜瑾委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.21096875,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.024718750000002,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.918468750000002,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.20534375,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.52596875,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.96471875,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.251593750000005,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.322218750000005,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.87909375000001,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.35971875,"end":83.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.79096875,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.93784375000001,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.01221875,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.02909375,"end":124.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.60221875,"end":127.28534375000001},{"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這個我們一定秉持最專業的方式來做是 然後我要請教次長"},{"start":269.912,"end":280.08,"text":"你有沒有看到一個新聞是5月中的時候美國宣布對俄羅斯有一項制裁就是要禁止進口濃縮鈾這是一個核燃料你有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":281.611,"end":283.753,"text":"跟委員很坦誠說我沒看過這個新聞好那這個你要再去了解那美國為什麼提出這項制裁呢因為他們擔心說跟俄羅斯進口又會成為這個俄羅斯進攻烏克蘭做軍事攻擊的這個資金所以基於國安的考量美國下了這個進口令"},{"start":301.927,"end":307.891,"text":"美國過去呢他是高度的仰賴俄羅斯進口鈾比例高達了24%所以呢他們也開始在要做進口替代加強對美國本土鈾燃料生產的投資那包括英國的智庫皇家聯合軍事研究所也都指出美國現在對俄羅斯進行這一個進口鈾的制裁那很可能也會變成中國來擴大他鈾出口的"},{"start":326.824,"end":344.128,"text":"因為今天的報告當中我們有討論到小型核電廠過去小型核電廠所使用的濃縮鈾過去只有一家俄羅斯的國營企業有生產所以我看到美國這個資訊我就相當的關注那我想未來我們在評估當中你們要非常的清楚了解到能源政策除了能源以外因為你牽涉到這個燃料的國際供應鏈它勢必也要去考量國際的局勢"},{"start":355.236,"end":367.365,"text":"那國際局勢的變動他回頭過來有可能影響到我們燃料供應的穩定性所以國安安全絕對也是你們要衡量其中之一所以請次長去進行了解是好我們會最後呢我要這個請教的是我們有一個RE100"},{"start":372.368,"end":384.854,"text":"是我們這個企業界來實行一個承諾希望能夠達到百分之百的再生能源的使用那台灣我們有很多廠商都有加入包括有台積電、宏基、聯電等等的那這一個RE100次長他的目前訂定的時間希望什麼時候可以達成這個目標"},{"start":393.507,"end":404.368,"text":"如果沒有記錯應該2030年是 那在再生RA100裡面它的再生能源的定義有沒有包括核電我想目前沒有"},{"start":405.768,"end":409.029,"text":"對我們現在台灣尤其是台積電大家很關注因為我們台灣這些廠商現在已經國際市場當中非常關鍵重要的角色所以他們會有很多國際的夥伴所以他們跟這些國際夥伴在交易的時候他們就牽涉到"},{"start":424.013,"end":424.033,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":439.371,"end":454.901,"text":"這些國內的科技業者不僅僅是科技業者很多的傳統產業廠商都希望經濟部能擴大再生能源的一個開發跟供應我想這個部分是必然的也是確定是這樣子的那我們怎麼提供協助呢因為他的時間是2030最終是2040年要達到這個百分之百的目標所以他不需要逐年來提升他購買再生能源嗎目前我們怎麼協助台灣的本土廠商"},{"start":465.447,"end":490.949,"text":"是我想我們就是這個依照我們現在所規劃的把最成熟的這個光電還有這個離岸風電做最大的開發那另外我們也積極的納入像地熱跟生資能作為現在比較潛力大的一個再生能源的供應的來源那希望說盡最大能力來從開源端就是供應端來提供另外這個綠電的那個這個交易我們也建立"},{"start":491.169,"end":512.005,"text":"﹗"}]}},{"id":"153230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133188b7fec4d2eece84de1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b195aa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:39:33 - 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我們請 有請我們的部長請 劉部長黃國榮你好部長好你好部長 那個 雖然我們昨天通過了我們的那個執行刑事法不過保證不用煩惱啦 雖然我是國民黨的立委但是我們自己工作做好 大家都沒問題是因為我相信我們來這裡 是為了改革我們社會和國家的問題不是為了我們國民的問題這部分 我相信我們要這樣共識"},{"start":33.553,"end":33.933,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":52.715,"end":67.888,"text":"預計是明年4月但是現在地方政府或者是有一些團體有不同的想法跟建議那我會認為說可能我們溝通不足包括地方政府或是一些公民團體或是其他的部分我們會來做比較好的溝通的方向"},{"start":68.376,"end":90.805,"text":"市長 我覺得回憶是一個很好的東西還可以提醒我們發生過去的事情那些還沒有做我今天在之前在我們頂級的部長簽告過說國土計劃法要實施之前有一個東西很重要就是國土計劃土地使用管制規則這個部份跟人家變了?跟委員報告4月26號已經預告了4月26號已經預告了那民眾知道了嗎?"},{"start":97.806,"end":98.687,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":113.436,"end":138.338,"text":"我想這個消息出來之後：很多的指甲室：包括南部我們都會有關系：這些農民：這些漁民都很煩惱那我想：是不是我想建議不能只有公告這一塊：應該是可以跟各縣市來合作：包括辦公廳會：聽聽我們地方的聲音：跟我們：讓我們的農民什麼可以做什麼可以做：讓這個法能夠推動順利那部長是不是同意這樣的建議"},{"start":141.42,"end":163.5,"text":"吳委員剛才講的部分我完全可以同意因為連我也不了解說現在國土計劃法所包括的範圍內管治政府怎麼會有不一樣的聲音因為它很早以前就按照行政程序去公告地方政府包括都發單位或者是縣市政府都知道那現在我看到每個地方的縣市政府的包括民意代表也提出不同的想法"},{"start":164.321,"end":189.054,"text":"所以我想既然大家都有這樣子的一個想法跟質疑的話,我們要凝聚共識之前,最好能夠再多聽聽大家的聲音。但是因為還沒有凝聚共識,所以原來我們所設定的期程是還沒有改變,因為時間還沒到。如果需要改變的話,我們會跟著做一下滾動式的檢討。是,我相信部長你如果去拜訪我們這裡的總督、我們這裡的領袖,應該也是,是沒有這樣說,說了這麼多歡樂的事情給你聽嘛。"},{"start":191.235,"end":197.26,"text":"還有農民團體也有原住民團體有不同的聲音我們說到農民團體除了宗教團體這一塊我看到你有提及宗教團體以治安人民登記不動產處理暫行條例延長辦理有支持延長延長多久還沒有確定"},{"start":213.852,"end":217.033,"text":"我會跟委員做一個不一樣的概念我認為在宗教團體內服務的人,人,不是神才是我們內政部需要去服務跟幫忙的部分"},{"start":239.663,"end":249.956,"text":"宗教法人法事涉很廣,因為宗教法人法到後來會變成大的宗廟團體才會做,小的,譬如說可能我們地方上的土地公廟,或是貓族園,小小的房子,他不會去處理這個,那如果是這樣的狀況之下,你沒有辦法涵蓋"},{"start":257.245,"end":268.354,"text":"所有在宗教團體裡面服務人員他們自己的權益保障的話貿然就進入所謂的宗教法人法因為宗教法人法類似跟財團法人行政法人一樣你還要有當屬定還要有你幹不屬定定所以我覺得還需要再從長計議回去會做一下檢討"},{"start":274.138,"end":277.54,"text":"我們前幾天看到內政部發布的新稿就是說呼籲業者不要以碳費來徵收作為烘台價格的房價的這個"},{"start":300.554,"end":302.596,"text":"民眾會好奇究竟我們 會不會影響到房價?"},{"start":318.936,"end":341.224,"text":"報告委員 這個所謂的碳費 所謂的0.9的這個部分他是在建築研究所裡面的一個討論的部分那事實上現在碳費的制定或是有關未來的淨零的這個轉型的部分是由環境部來主導可是我已經要求我們的次長跟我們的建築研究所現在要類似開公聽會或是開一個建築研究的討論"},{"start":342.504,"end":342.544,"text":"主席"},{"start":365.677,"end":366.077,"text":"這個部份請部長持續關注這個問題"},{"start":391.278,"end":391.738,"text":"主委知道嗎?"},{"start":420.57,"end":443.323,"text":"過去一段時間的事故我們都列入檢討21個弟兄因公殉職造成21個家庭的破碎我想我們不要死後哀悼也不要悲情的哀悼我想要做的 這裡要做的是說讓我們每一個消防弟兄能夠安全的從舊災的現場回來這是我們要努力的部分那我想經過前天那個新竹的事情也想"},{"start":443.763,"end":444.383,"text":"警政署"},{"start":463.228,"end":491.347,"text":"市長,好的警察不是垂手可的,他們不是隨時短期培訓就可以養成,他就長時間的培養。那在這邊我想,因為警務組現在在未來的警力的這個禁用訓練、退休及儲備上,是不是有更與時俱進的做法跟更完善的規劃?那這邊本市委會小長的建議,臺東縣這個高階的員警的員額不多,那是不是能夠,未來能夠在升遷上能夠考慮以在地的人力優先?"},{"start":492.568,"end":493.648,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":519.933,"end":525.116,"text":"備請的人員需要隨時的支援這塊是不是也要列進去裡面備請如果有出去處理是可以列進去的有受理民眾報案有出請的話是可以列進去"},{"start":537.722,"end":537.742,"text":"謝謝組長：部長"}]}},{"id":"153229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133180ef07242ec06f85de1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b1958fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:30:44 - 10:39:25","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":521,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:39:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:30:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":500,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時30分）謝謝主席。部長就不用下去了……"],["主席：有請部長。"],["黃委員捷：沒關係，謝謝部長。我今天看了一下，今天來的很多委員都穿球鞋跟牛仔褲，這樣其實是符合我們韓院長藐視國會的定義喔！所以好險我今天沒有穿球鞋。好，謝謝部長，我來跟您請教一下，現在藐視國會罪通過了，您會緊張嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想我們就是知之為知之，不知為不知，應該是我職權行使範圍內的話，我就儘量跟委員來做回應跟回答。"],["黃委員捷：是啦！我還是希望因為今天很多新的部會首長都上任了，也是安慰大家、鼓勵大家一下，因為現在這個法通過了，公務員真的人人自危，希望大家在位子上都可以安心地做這個工作，我還是會努力做大家的後盾。","先請教一下軟腳蝦建築，因為這個其實是在4月3號花蓮地震之後，很多人都有關心的後續就是上面有一些黃單建築的部分，當時我也有問前部長現在這個軟腳蝦建築的強化耐震規範，我們通知相關民眾的機制是什麼？當時他們是跟我們說108年到110年有大概盤點出來，可是到現在其實數字還不是很明確，我想要請教一下部長及署長，現在手上有沒有相關的資訊了？全國大概有多少棟軟腳蝦建築呢？"],["劉部長世芳：是不是請署長先跟您回應一下？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["主席：請吳署長，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們當時是篩了三萬六千多件，其中大概有一萬兩千多件是屬於我們認為在結構認定上是有疑慮的，所以當時就把這些資料通知各縣市政府，請它代為通知這些大樓的管委會或所有權人，讓他們可以知道自己大樓本身存在的結構疑慮，是這個意思。"],["黃委員捷：三萬六千多件然後你們通知了一萬兩千多件，現在已經請各縣市政府要通知相關的住戶，可是到底有幾棟主動來申請耐震評估，然後也完成耐震補強的呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，大概不到100棟。"],["黃委員捷：不到100棟，這個就是我現在最擔心的，就是通知歸通知啦！但是真的願意自己做耐震補強的大樓或是公寓，或是相關的建築，其實非常少、非常少，我不知道現在國土署針對這樣的情形有沒有一些再去加強，或者是還可以怎麼進一步鼓勵民眾申請，或者是說他們自己趕快針對自己住的環境做更安全的加強呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們大概分兩個面向：第一個，當然今年我們還是會重新再盤點過去快篩的成果與他們現在執行的方向，如果沒有的話，第一個，我們當然還是會持續請地方政府要通知他們，因為政府有提供初、詳評的補助，其實他們只要自己做了初、詳評，自己就可以來做決定要不要往下一階段做耐震補強，或者是拆除重建，今年我們還是會做這件事情。第二個，其實它在相關的公安上會有這樣的疑慮，所以我們現在也請建管組這邊來研究，未來公安檢查的部分是不是針對這一些可能有結構疑慮的，要不要加強針對其公安的部分來進行增加項目的檢查，也就是說，尤其是八層樓以上的建築物，就可以先開始慢慢來增強對公安的要求，把它納進去的話，對於住戶來講是有更強的提醒作用。"],["黃委員捷：是的，當然我也不希望變成我們在擾民啦，但是因為這個其實都是大家自己居住環境的安全問題，所以怎麼樣可以官民合作，然後讓大家的整體環境變得更安全，這個是我非常關心的，我也知道內政部本來有規定1999年以前的旅館、醫院、商場等用途的房屋要強制辦理耐震能力評估，可是因為現在我們看到軟腳蝦建築都是一般住宅，所以我相信這還是現在最大的問題，我也希望我們持續地趕快再研擬一些相關措施來協助。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["黃委員捷：部長跟署長可以先回座。接下來我要請教一下消防署署長。"],["主席：有請消防署署長。"],["黃委員捷：最後一點時間，我來請教一下新竹的這個案子，因為這一案大家看完會覺得有點困惑，覺得比較多的爭點，到目前為止調查原因還尚待釐清，因為起火點是在地下室，可是到最後是在高層樓，沒錯，所以這個起火的原因你們現在有沒有協助地方，就是協助新竹消防局來進行相關調查？如果有需要，現在地方上有任何向你們請求支援的狀況嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員關心新竹火災，在第一時間我們的火調人員跟災調會人員都已經到現場開始啟動調查作業，火災的原因，事實上，剛才委員有提到，它火災的地方只有地下一樓的電纜線間，然後往上，往上延燒的範圍也不是很大，就是在管道間，沒有對外延燒，整個大樓充滿了因為電纜線起火而產生的黑煙跟積碳，這是目前的狀況。起火處所我們現在是確定在地下一樓的電纜線間，至於起火的原因，我們在第一時間已經跟新竹市做協助，第一天我們也將電線短路的痕跡狀況採回消防署做一個鑑定，今天還是在現場進行接續調查，調查報告會由新竹市來製作，我們來做鑑定報告書的提列，以上跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝署長的說明，當然，這個火調還是由地方消防局去進行啦，我覺得調查是一個，但我覺得最重要的還是消防員本身的安全，因為我們真的很不想看到消防員再殉職了。我想要問的是，因為現在大家都在討論消防員要不要組工會，我認為在組工會之外有另外一個很重要的就是，消防員可不可以直接適用職安條例、適用職安專章？我不知道現在消防署對於這個部分的看法是什麼？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，跟委員回報，5月15號衛環委員會在審查工會法的時候有做決議，要行政院在一個月把消防法納入職安專章的條文報到立法院來審議，這個條文我們在4月30號已經報到行政院，行政院預計會依照立法院的決議，在消防法裡面把職安專章的條文列進去。除了職安專章以外，事實上我們也提列後續職安的5年中程計畫，也就不是光只有法律，而是在執行面，我們怎麼參考甚至跟這個計畫的配合，有專業團隊來協助地方政府強化地方人員的安全，當然這個強化不是只有臺灣本身的強化，事實上，我們的職安署、勞研所、美國、日本的經驗都融入，當成一個推動的重要項目，以上跟委員回報，至於詳細情形，如果委員有需要，我們再跟委員做回報，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：這些資料也麻煩提供給我，因為520新政府上任，我希望之前你們的這些承諾都還是會繼續推動。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["黃委員捷：最後我再次強調，消防員的資訊權、退避權，還有現在的這些職安的權利，拜託消防署成為消防員最大的後盾，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，也謝謝蕭署長，謝謝。","繼續我們請黃建賓委員質詢，質詢後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 欸 部長就沒有下去了 哈哈哈好 有請部長沒關係 謝謝部長好 我今天看了一下 跟今天來的很多委員都穿球鞋跟牛仔褲這樣其實是符合我們韓院長藐視國會的定義喔所以 好險我今天沒有穿球鞋好 謝謝部長 我來跟您請教一下您現在就是這個藐視國會最通過的 您會緊張嗎"},{"start":32.001,"end":59.284,"text":"我還是希望因為今天很多新的部會首長都上任了也是安慰大家鼓勵大家一下因為現在這個法通過了公務員真的人人自危希望大家在位子上都可以安心的做這個工作還是會努力的做大家的後盾"},{"start":59.904,"end":85.127,"text":"好那先請教一下這個軟腳蝦建築因為這個其實在4月3號花蓮地震之後其實很多人都有關心的後續就是上面有一些就是黃丹建築的部分那當時我有問到就是當時的部長就是現在這個軟腳蝦建築的強化耐震的規範現在我們通知相關民眾的機制是什麼"},{"start":85.948,"end":103.333,"text":"那當時我問這個前部長他們是跟我們說108年到110年有大概的盤點出來可是到現在其實數字還是不是很明確我想要請教一下部長跟我們署長現在手上有沒有相關的資訊了全國大概有多少棟的軟腳蝦建築呢請署長來先跟您回應一下"},{"start":112.359,"end":137.47,"text":"跟委員報告我們當時是篩了三萬六千多件那大概其中有大概一萬兩千多件是屬於我們大概認定在在結構上是認為是有疑慮的那所以當時就把這些資料就通知各縣市政府請他代為通知這些大樓的管委會或所有全人讓他們可以知道說他自己的大樓本身存在的結構疑慮是這個意思"},{"start":139.07,"end":139.75,"text":"更穩報告大概不到100棟"},{"start":158.99,"end":181.486,"text":"這就是我現在最擔心的就是通知歸通知啦但是真的願意自己去做內政補強的大樓或是公寓或是相關的這個建築其實非常少非常少那我不知道現在國土署有沒有針對這樣的情形有沒有一些再去加強或者是我們還可以怎麼進一步的來"},{"start":183.027,"end":207.666,"text":"鼓勵民眾來申請然後或者是說他們自己趕快針對自己住的環境來做更安全的加強呢跟委員報告其實我們大概分兩個面向第一個當然我們在今年以後我們還是會重新再盤點把過去快篩的成果跟他們現在在執行的方向那如果沒有的話第一個我們當然還是會持續"},{"start":208.767,"end":227.499,"text":"請地方政府要通知他們因為政府有提供補助是出產品的補助是那其實他們只要自己做了出產品自己就可以來做決定要不要往下一階段的耐震補強或是這個採取重建要去再做我想這一今年我們還是要來做這件事情第二個呢其實他會跟這一個"},{"start":229.981,"end":230.161,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":251.719,"end":252.22,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":264.557,"end":264.617,"text":"內政部部長"},{"start":283.423,"end":309.841,"text":"強制規定說1999年以前的旅館醫院商場等用途的房屋強制要進行耐震評估那可是因為現在其實我們看到亂角蝦建築的都是一般住宅所以我相信這還是現在最大的問題那我也希望說我們持續的趕快再研擬一些相關的措施來協助好那我們部長跟署長可以先回座我還是請教一下我們消防署的署長"},{"start":312.111,"end":334.222,"text":"最後一點時間我來請教一下這個新竹的這一案因為這一案其實大家看完會覺得說有點困惑然後有點覺得說比較比較多爭點到目前這個調查的原因還尚待釐清包括說因為他的起火點是在地下室可是到最後是在高層樓"},{"start":335.603,"end":335.783,"text":"請求支援"},{"start":353.001,"end":376.128,"text":"感謝委員關心新竹火災我們在第一時間我們的火調人員跟災調會人員都已經到現場開始啟動調查作業那火災的原因事實上剛才委員他的火災的地方只有地下一樓的電纜線間然後往上那往上延燒的範圍也不是很大就是在管道間沒有對外的延燒整個是整個大樓充滿因為電纜線"},{"start":379.469,"end":381.411,"text":"今天還是在現場做接續的一個調查"},{"start":413.493,"end":425.439,"text":"那當然這個火調還是由地方的消防局去進行啦我覺得調查是一個但我覺得最重要的還是消防員本身的安全因為我們真的很不想看到消防員再殉職了"},{"start":426.32,"end":427.462,"text":"消防員可不可以直接適用職安條例?"},{"start":437.307,"end":456.164,"text":"是用職安專章那這個我不知道現在我們消防署的看法是什麼是跟委員回報5月15號未完委會在審查公會法的時候有做決議是要消防署現在銜證員在一個月把消防法列入職安專章的條文報到立法院來審議"},{"start":457.245,"end":480.874,"text":"那這個條文我們在4月30號已經報到行政院那曾經預計會在立法院的決議把消防法裡面有治安專章的條文列進去那除了治安專章以外呢事實上我們也提列後續治安的5年的中程計畫也就不是光是只有法律而是在執行面我們怎麼參考深耕計畫的配合"},{"start":481.554,"end":501.073,"text":"有專業團隊來協助地方政府來強化地方人員的安全當然這個強化不是只有臺灣本身的強化事實上我們職安署勞研所美國日本的經驗我們都融入當成一個推動的一個重點重要項目我想這個跟委員回報那詳細情形如果委需要的話我們再跟著"},{"start":501.813,"end":501.913,"text":"黃捷委員"}]}},{"id":"153228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e133132005df602433476de1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b19556ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:19:47 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10:30:28","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":641,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:30:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:19:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：高金委員，你好。"],["高金委員素梅：部長好，辛苦啦！"],["劉部長世芳：哪裡。"],["高金委員素梅：恭喜您啊！到了內政部，業務非常地繁雜，也希望我們多保重身體，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：我首先感謝部長在原住民族文字單列入法之後，在23號的時候，我知道您已經儘速跟各部會做後續的作業，您展現出對原住民權益的重視，在這裡非常謝謝你，但是原住民的事務真的非常多，也需要各部會一起努力來改善。","首先，我的第一個議題就是國土計畫，國土計畫法攸關部落族人的土地跟居住正義，近年來有非常多的地方政府認為好像有一些施行的問題，希望延後施行，可是部落裡面有不同的聲音，因為在部落裡面大概攸關8萬戶以上的住宅合法化，那個政策是必須要推動的。請問一下部長，這個部分您該怎麼處理？如果其他縣市有意見的話。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝高金委員的垂詢，我們針對這部分在內部做過討論，根據我們現在的行政程序，如果國土計畫法要公布的話，要全國一致公布，我們正在想有沒有可能是縣市、縣市來推動。另外就是您所提到的，很多原住民的朋友認為國土計畫法愈快通過，對於房舍的合法化會取得一定的保障……"],["高金委員素梅：是，有8萬戶。"],["劉部長世芳：我們研議看看有沒有可能讓原住民的鄉鎮部落先來通過，但是這一定要經過法律上的一個程序，如果程序符合的話，我完全支持這樣的立場。因為我們知道，而且我自己本身也在很多原住民部落走動，都有聽到這樣的聲音，也非常謝謝高金委員的關心，未來如果可以這樣修正，也請高金委員多多支持。"],["高金委員素梅：我們一起努力，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["高金委員素梅：既能符合各縣市的需求，也符合原住民的土地正義。過去數十年來，我們政府的政策對於山地管制或是土地規劃，它根本沒有考量到我們部落的所需，所以造成部落非常多都是違建，因為過去的政策不周延造成族人權益的損失，我相信原民會跟內政部應該要趕快來處理，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們儘量。"],["高金委員素梅：也就是住宅合法化，還有土地計畫需要制定原住民族土地使用規則，作為未來原住民部落土地使用的規範。在這裡我有幾點建議，第一個建議，請吳署長是不是能夠理解也來趕快處理？第一個就是我們希望三個月之內，由內政部和原民會邀集中華民國建築師公會召開部落住宅合法化的推動研討會，彙集部落需求，廣納專家學者的意見，我們擬定部落住宅合法化的作業規範，這有沒有可能？"],["吳署長欣修：這個可以，我們可能還會再加邀相關的水保技師那一類的，一起來探討原住民住宅的合法還要經過建管、水保這一些，有哪一些困難、有哪一些問題需要克服，我想這是我們可以來協助的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我們就超前部署。在國土計畫法還沒有通過之前，我們把部落裡面建築合法的問題一併先解決，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。第二個就是部落一戶、兩戶的零星住戶，我相信部長跟署長比我更清楚知道，尤其在30個山地鄉裡面，因為他們的土地區分不能劃定為農四，所以內政部跟原民會必須保障所謂零星住戶的住宅使用，他的權利應該要比照農四，這樣才符合部落生活所需要，對不對？吳署長，您瞭解這件事情吧？"],["吳署長欣修：是，跟委員報告，其實這一點會跟剛剛的第一點扣在一起，今天不光是只有土地合法的問題，其實它必須跟建管、水保全部扣在一起才有辦法正確處理，否則只有土地，即便你讓他變了，他也是做不了，所以這個問題我們會全部扣在一起來協助。"],["高金委員素梅：很好！第三個就是要保障現行非都市土地使用管制規則的第四十五條跟第四十六條，也就是原住民申請興建自用住宅的規定，也就是所謂一生一次的規定，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是，這個我們會來落實。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。第四個就是落實以山地鄉為單位，辦理鄉村規劃，劃定部落未來的發展區域，這非常重要，因為我們有非常多年輕人未來是需要回去的，所以未來的發展區域很重要，署長，這沒有問題吧？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們當然會努力協助地方政府，只要願意提出申請，我們一定都會支持他們。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以以上四點都沒有問題嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["高金委員素梅：接下來，我希望署長和部長能儘速召集地方政府來溝通國土計畫的施行，如果地方政府有意見的話，是不是可以請他們正面表列所有的疑問？而不是說反對，然後就講不出理由，是不是請署長跟部長辛苦一下，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，這個我們一定都持續在……我們也會請他們真的把困難點提出來。"],["高金委員素梅：對，講出來，然後來協助他們。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。第二個議題是原住民的殯葬設施，111年到114年度的殯葬設施量能提升計畫僅僅剩一年就要結束了，經費也全數分配完畢。但是部長應該非常清楚，山地鄉有很多公所因為中央經費不足，沒有經費施作，也因為海拔及水源保育區設置殯葬設施是有環評及水保法規上的限制，導致非常多的原鄉難以提報計畫。請問部長，你是不是可以承諾我們原鄉這項計畫會延續辦理嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，原來在拜訪高金委員的時候就有特別提到殯葬設施量能提升計畫我們會延續辦理，就是只有一個──安全最重要，如果安全問題以外的，我們的共識都很強。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，還有各個原住民地區它的特殊性，比如說簡化申請程序，部長也可以協助嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會來跟原民會或者是地方部落一起協助如何處理這個部分，只要他們提出需求。"],["高金委員素梅：對，水保申請是要很長的時間。"],["劉部長世芳：對，水保對他們來講比較困擾一點，但是我們可以找相關的水保、土木工程技師，或是營建技師來幫忙。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝部長。我相信這幾點，部落的族人聽到其實是蠻開心的，希望未來能夠對於原住民地區的需求，我們的政府官員都會非常理解。","第三個議題我要講到獵槍的權益，釋字第803號解釋了原住民獵槍，針對獵槍規範的議題上我開了3次協調會，最高法院判決也同意族人自製及保證安全性的前提下，會朝雙軌制的方案訂定規範。警政署與原民會今年也召開了3次會議，但是還沒有修正完成，請問一下部長，獵槍辦法修正的困難點到底是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：現在我們還是同意雙軌制來進行。"],["高金委員素梅：好，雙軌制。"],["張署長榮興：新的從國外進口的零件沒有檢測的問題，對於原住民自己自製的獵槍，現在我們在制定這一些檢測的方式、方法，到底由哪個單位來檢測，我們近期會做決定，到底是要從比較有能力的國防部來做檢測單位，那這樣就能夠確定了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問署長，什麼時候？"],["張署長榮興：我們大概在下個禮拜有一個會要開，會召集他們來開這個會。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，謝謝署長。我會持續關心這個部分。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：第四個議題要講到的就是我們最辛苦的警察同仁的權益了，我知道5月17號行政院核定警政人員危勞性勤務津貼，也就是說12點到6點會支給每小時100塊的實質補貼，但是實際我們換算的時候，初任員警時薪176元加100元的補貼是276塊，而平價料理店員的時薪是250塊、70塊的津貼，加起來是320塊，你們可以看到這樣子的落差，警察即便是有深夜危勞性勤務津貼，實際上他的薪水卻不如在安穩環境之下的一般人，這真的無疑是對士氣的一大打擊，然後再加上深夜危勞性勤務津貼僅有部分勤務才有，譬如說在派出所值班為什麼沒有？難道夜間值班不算工作嗎？沒有危險性嗎？況且不要忘記今年2月底基隆市警察局第三分局才發生小貨車衝撞值班臺，這也造成了24歲的員警傷重不治。部長，危勞性勤務津貼是為了慰勞員警，我肯定增加補貼的作為，可是執行上是不是應該要衡平所有狀況給員警一個合理的補貼？我們不應該產生變相的剝奪感或者是歧視的情形，您願意通盤檢討來研議一個合法的勤務津貼補貼方案嗎？請問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我來回應好了。"],["高金委員素梅：好。"],["劉部長世芳：高金委員所提的非常正確，因為我們是6月1號才開始實施，未來要不要從寬認定，我們會跟警政署來商量，如果可以從寬的話，我們儘量以從寬的方向來進行。"],["高金委員素梅：好，什麼時候能讓我們知道可以從寬，署長？"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們6月1號才開始實施，是不是實施一段時間，譬如說3個月、幾個月以後，我們再以滾動式的方式來檢討。"],["高金委員素梅：我覺得不要6個月，3個月好不好？因為實際我現在……"],["劉部長世芳：3個月是嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：對。實際上我們已經看到這樣的問題了……"],["劉部長世芳：好。我們3個月來做滾動式檢討報告，然後再看……"],["高金委員素梅：我們儘量來提高、提升一下警察的士氣好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["高金委員素梅：繼續我要感謝內政部按照我協調會的結論，調升了警專原住民入學比例到3.5%，明日我要審查都原條例，請部長也能夠給我們支持，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金召委的質詢，也謝謝部長及署長。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：謝謝。繼續我們請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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所以以上四點都沒有問題嗎接著下來我要希望那個署長和部長能夠盡速召集地方政府來溝通國土計畫的施行如果地方政府有意見的話是不是可以請他們正面表列他們的所有的疑問而不是說反對然後就講不出理由是不是請署長跟部長辛苦一下好嗎"},{"start":316.952,"end":318.633,"text":"111年到114年度的殯葬設施量能提升計畫僅僅剩一年就要結束了"},{"start":334.5,"end":354.625,"text":"金費也全數的分配完畢但是部長應該非常的清楚山地鄉有很多的公所因為中央的金費不足沒有金費施作也因為海拔跟水源保育區設置冰藏設施是有環評跟水保法規上的限制這導致有非常多的原鄉難以提報計畫請問部長你是不是可以承諾我們原鄉這項計畫是可以延續辦理嗎"},{"start":360.506,"end":360.686,"text":"部長可以協助嗎?"},{"start":380.683,"end":380.883,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":400.353,"end":414.559,"text":"我相信這幾點在部落的族人聽到其實是滿開心的希望說未來能夠對於原住民地區的需求我們的政府官員都會非常的理解第三個議題我就是要講到我們的獵槍的權益了獵槍權益4至803號解釋的原住民的獵槍獵槍的規範的議題上面我開了三次的協調會"},{"start":422.102,"end":441.218,"text":"最高法院的判決也同意逐人自治還有保證安全性的前提下會朝雙軌制的方案訂定規範警政署跟園民會今年也召開了三次的會議但是呢還沒有修正完成請問一下部長列腔辦法修正的困難點到底是什麼"},{"start":441.778,"end":461.176,"text":"好那現在我們還是同意雙軌制來做進行雙軌制那這個新的就是從國外進口的零件那就是沒有檢測的問題那現在就是我原住民自己自製的列槍現在我們在制定這一些檢測的這一個這個方式方法"},{"start":461.636,"end":479.778,"text":"到底有哪個單位來檢測那我們進行會會來做決定到底是要從有比較有能力的國防部他們來做這個檢測的這個單位那這樣就能夠確定好什麼時候請問署長我們大概在下個禮拜有一個有個會要來開要來召集他們來開這個會"},{"start":480.819,"end":483.34,"text":"第4個議題要講到的就是我們最辛苦的警察同仁的權益了我知道5月17號行政院有合併警政人員為勞性勤務的津貼也就是說12點到6點"},{"start":496.147,"end":496.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":512.913,"end":513.233,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":539.74,"end":553.875,"text":"難道夜間值班不算工作嗎?沒有危險性嗎?況且不要忘記今年2月底基隆市的警察第三分局他才發聲小貨車去衝撞我們的值班台這也造成了24歲我們的員警傷重不治部長"},{"start":557.859,"end":559.44,"text":"我來回應好了我想高金委員的所提的非常的正確"},{"start":585.618,"end":606.743,"text":"因為我們是6月1號才開始實施那未來要不要重寬來做認定的話我們會跟警政署來做商量如果可以重寬的話我們盡量從重寬的方向來進行什麼時候可以讓我們知道可以重寬因為我們6月1號才開始實施是不是實施一段時間譬如說三個月幾個月以後我們再讓滾動式的方式來檢討"},{"start":607.603,"end":609.143,"text":"提升到3.5%我們也請部長明日我要審查的是都員條例也請我們部長也能夠跟我們支持好不好"},{"start":637.33,"end":638.354,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13317055558eef2ca39dde1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b1951bd147f165fa27cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:11:34 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10:19:42","影片長度":"00:08:08","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":488,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:19:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:11:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時11分）謝謝主席，我們有請內政部部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。請教一下，我們新竹市東區有一棟大樓是在27日發生火災，有2名消防人員協助疏散二十多名住戶，後來二度進入火場，最後氣瓶耗盡而導致在階梯間，2名同仁就因為這樣子而殉職，我們感到非常難過和不捨，我們並不希望這樣的悲劇一再發生。沒過多久，在屏東明揚大火之後，現在又有消防人員殉職的悲劇，消防人員總是這樣出生入死以保護人民的人身安全，他們的工作安全更需要被重視，人事長也說目前修法方向是在「消防法」另訂職安專章處理，目前修法進度如何？預計什麼時候可以提出院版？"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝麥委員。對於前兩天新竹的高樓層大樓，還有在更早之前屏東明揚工廠的大火，我們也非常地不捨，尤其是消防員他們的殉職。我們也非常瞭解，必須要從法律上面趕快能夠加強，讓消防員在職業安全衛生上面獲得一定程度的制度上保障。內政部在4月2日已經把11條草案送到行政院去，詳細的細節部分，我是不是可以請我們的蕭署長跟您回應一下，好嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員對消防的關心。目前消防法修正案包括職安專章，已經在4月30日陳報到行政院，行政院正在排審，也會依據衛環委員會5月15日開會的決議，於一個月內報到立法院來審議，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。雖然依地方制度法規定，消防事務屬於地方管理，但各縣市可以提報消防人員的需求給中央嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：消防署再依照所提需要的規劃以估計配發額度，新竹消防局113年編制人員的額度有380人，但是預算員額有336人，現有員額只有323人，現在新竹又發生兩位同仁英勇殉職，人力缺口更為廣大，為了充足人力，重振同仁的士氣並且落實制度，內政部消防署是否同意提高113年四等警察特考的員額？這是我們新竹這邊的希望，還有我們全國。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝麥委員的關心，我們在當日的時候，包括新竹市長高虹安，他也提到他們新竹市消防人員不足的地方，署長剛好也在現場，我們答應在短暫時間內趕快把合格的消防人員補足，這一點大概新竹市長非常瞭解。另外一方面，很多人也跟我們反映，到考試院去合格考取的人員不夠，因為錄取率比較低，其實我們也報到行政院，行政院鄭副院長也要求跟考試院秘書長通電話，希望未來的消防員特考的時候能從現在需求量非常高的狀況之下提高錄取率，考試院他們內部的研討結果也認為可以儘快幫忙，這一點我們再繼續追蹤。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的內政部長剛上任，但是很多事情都準備好了，很感謝。我們的新竹消防局也說有很多消防車老舊、要購買，所以預計115年購買並更新2部50公尺的雲梯車，還有1部60公尺的雲梯車，為了讓消防局同仁出勤的時候擁有更能救火的車輛，是否提高購買這樣的車輛來維護救火的效能？"],["蕭署長煥章：很感謝委員，我們對於新竹市雲梯車的補助有兩個計畫，一個是老舊消防車第二期汰換，補助新竹市有1部50公尺以上的雲梯車，這個計畫……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，52。"],["蕭署長煥章：50公尺。"],["麥委員玉珍：50公尺，對。"],["蕭署長煥章：在115年會到位，當然前天新竹市有提到是不是可以提早，我們會配合新竹市的需求來做一個調整。另外，有一個是高科技廠房的計畫，會有1部50公尺的雲梯車到新竹市，同時新竹市也提出1部60公尺的雲梯車，這個計畫會在後續年度來執行，感謝委員關心。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以什麼時候會執行？"],["蕭署長煥章：後續的年度我們再跟新竹市討論什麼時候可以執行，配合它的需求來做調整。"],["麥委員玉珍：可以提早嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們儘可能來做檢討，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個太好了！因為現在我們有人力還有設備的需求。這次的火災大樓總共有28層，對不對？但是因為我們新竹的雲梯車只有52公尺，只能救到8樓而已，這是雲梯車的極限，所以這次如果我們可以提早會更好。也感謝我們的救援行動，主要是啟德出動78公尺的階梯車才能有這樣的協助救災，所以希望我們考量到未來這樣的案件，我們能提早買到這樣的車的話，不是說車愈高愈好，還要考量我們的空間還有地方，但是如果考量近代都市快速發展以及我國道路的狀況，未來是否有購買高度更高的必要？這個部分我們也要考量，因為救人也要考量馬上可以救得到，這樣我們人民才安全，還有我們消防人員也安全。以上，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢，也謝謝部長、謝謝署長。","接下來我們請高金召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝 謝謝雖然是依地方的制度法規定消防事務屬於地方的管理但各縣市可以提報消防人員需求的給中央所以消防署再依照所提需要的規劃以估計配發的額度新竹消防局113年編制"},{"start":186.169,"end":186.329,"text":"：麥玉珍：麥玉珍"},{"start":217.546,"end":233.979,"text":"內政部消防署是否同意提高就是在發113年的四等警察特考的員額這個是我們的新竹這邊的希望"},{"start":237.35,"end":256.925,"text":"謝謝麥委員的關心我們在當日的時候包括新竹市長這個高鴻安他也提到說他們在新竹市啊這個消防人員不足的地方那署長剛也在現場那我們答應就是說在短暫時間內趕快把合格的消防人員補足這一點大概新竹市長非常了解"},{"start":257.465,"end":258.385,"text":"行政院政副院長也要求跟考試院秘書長通電話希望說他在未來的消防員特考"},{"start":281.05,"end":282.331,"text":"對,我們內政部長剛升任,但是我們很多事情都要準備好了,對,很感謝"},{"start":304.119,"end":304.659,"text":"新竹消防局有很多消防車要老舊要購買,所以依據說我們的11"},{"start":319.928,"end":320.108,"text":"對：這個部分"},{"start":348.39,"end":362.418,"text":"很感謝委員我們對於新竹市雲梯車的補助我們有兩個計畫一個是老舊消防車第二期汰換會補助新竹市有一部50公尺以上的雲梯車那這個計畫是在"},{"start":364.339,"end":390.188,"text":"50公尺在115年會到位那當然昨天前天新竹市有提早是不是可以提早這個我們會配合新竹市的需求來做個調整另外有個是高科技廠房的計畫會有50公尺雲梯車一部也是會到新竹市那同時新竹市也提出一部60公尺的雲梯車那這個計畫也是在後續年度會來執行所以什麼時候會執行"},{"start":391.96,"end":400.688,"text":"而後續的年度我們再跟新竹市來討論說他什麼時候可以來執行配合他的需求來做調整我們盡可能來做檢討謝謝委員因為現在我們有人力還有設備的需求所以因為上一次在我們的火災大樓就總共28層對不對但是因為我們的新竹的消防就"},{"start":416.783,"end":420.046,"text":"藍旗德出動78公尺的階梯車才能就是要去有這樣子的協助的救災"},{"start":441.468,"end":468.569,"text":"所以希望說我們的考量未來就是這樣子的案件我們能提早可以買到這樣子的車的話不是說車越高越好但是因為我們的空間還有地方但是如果考量說近代都市快速發展以及就是我們國道道路的狀況未來是否購買高度更好的必要這個部分我們也要去考量"},{"start":471.211,"end":471.332,"text":"：麥玉珍"}]}},{"id":"153226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331ebe3df4b06ac8cfede1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b1955195ddf4f073bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:02:57 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那個地方空白就會特別多不是周圍 我覺得你就是要拿這一個縣市我就拿台中跟高雄或台南來當例子好了這三個縣市的重劃的底廢地那你內政部在核定的時候是不是就應該拿他當年或前一年的這個社會住宅的興建的量來做一個審核之外那也要適度的放入內政部要當股東"},{"start":277.673,"end":286.022,"text":"來做新建社會住宅的一個空間：感謝委員：來書面資料來跟我做討論：我們一定會朝這個方向來做：來我要請部長上台了好現在有請部長李委員好謝謝部長部長在左營跟南直也就是我現在的選區"},{"start":301.956,"end":321.871,"text":"過去8年的期間留下了一些建設我必須要持續的來做追蹤昨天立法院通過了立法院職權侵蝕法的一些修正部長你以後不能對我反質詢但是我同意部長對我反質詢內容我來講"},{"start":325.687,"end":346.999,"text":"新台17縣的進度這是我要問你的因為這是從你當立委任內來不斷推動推動到換了10個國防部長換了10個市政府的公務局長只有立委還持續的在追蹤這一條目前的進度我想我會繼續來追蹤這個進度然後我也翻了部長"},{"start":347.979,"end":374.152,"text":"其實整個內政部的這個工作報告裡面有好多選區的事情要做那未來都要跟部長這邊還有所屬的包含國土署、自然公園、國家自然公園然後還有一些濕地的管理還有污水、再生水的管理未來都要跟部長持續的來探討我們全力支持"},{"start":374.953,"end":387.951,"text":"我講新台17縣新台17縣其實現在包含到南段北段已經動工然後未來的這個中海路我們現在已經在跟國防部包含這個海軍總議院"},{"start":390.795,"end":391.335,"text":"對於之前的選區多多照顧"},{"start":415.746,"end":444.714,"text":"是 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財政的"},{"start":74.701,"end":89.147,"text":"有專家的,他就想說這個又在電視常常看到的,他就拿刀刺下去,刀刺之後他也不知道怎麼方便你,有一天是我們的檢察局,他就說你的錢去方便你,他才知道"},{"start":95.049,"end":97.331,"text":"若像這樣：署長：部長：要如何叫我們的施大郎：我們的貝社：了解詐騙集團如何去議訪：這是最基本的來回答"},{"start":110.72,"end":117.145,"text":"王委員我相信你對你鄉親的服務都非常好我可以跟你一樣有這種心情我們都有親戚朋友受到這種投資詐騙集團害所以我們在這裡特別提醒我們的競爭屬的同仁包括我們地方的警察局的同仁都要第一時間來提起去銀行或是去郵局"},{"start":132.936,"end":133.136,"text":"主席"},{"start":150.626,"end":155.448,"text":"我們的165現在的來案量非常大,就是因為很多我們的鄉親朋友,尤其是在歷史的時候,都全是在家裡阿公阿嬤會打電話去問,這樣我們阻擋下來,不要讓人家拋棄的非常多,但是王委員說得非常正確,我們要繼續加強"},{"start":169.955,"end":173.017,"text":"包括你所說的,我們現在所說的這個行政委員會通過新打造的司法,裡面有一種就是說未來,你如果在LINE或是其他的Meta或是Google這裡,有要從最入口的時候要實名制,不要說一個叫做阿鴻,要去訂一個公告,再寫一篇照之後,這個阿鴻這裡"},{"start":190.148,"end":190.208,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":207.726,"end":213.853,"text":"市法一起通過連後也有名人我相信大家都知道譬如說現在有一個名人叫王美惠在那個地方說我現在在加疫苗要辦到一個人交一千塊就好這是假的但是我們知道這個部分之後我們會一樣追查這種假的"},{"start":225.546,"end":225.606,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":255.496,"end":259.577,"text":"部長,在剛才你的說明中,我相信有聽有聽,沒有聽也不知道,因為你們都說,如果要發錢去銀行的時候,銀行要注意一個,因為現在一個問題就是,他們不用經過銀行,"},{"start":280.384,"end":283.185,"text":"我邀請你來台北,因為這是要給你討論的,這是內宣的,所以他就直接來台北高鐵的會比較高級的人,這是也有的,所以在北京本身說實在,我們這個詐騙集團"},{"start":301.272,"end":307.738,"text":"很猖獗的,會覺得雖然我們有法,但在這本身,本身來講,政見投資信託及顧問法,會帶70條的記憶,有說到剛才部長說的,要實名制,在實名制裡面,"},{"start":321.75,"end":329.654,"text":"有冒漏洞的所在救命的所在像我們英南婆娃有時要救命去申請這也有的所以補充我的意思就是說我們要經過加強因為這個詐騙集團說實在任何人說到這大家都會受到氣氛所以這要去加強要去處理尤其現在的內"},{"start":350.285,"end":352.147,"text":"不管是年輕的、老的也好,都可以用,這是非常嚴重。．．．．．．"},{"start":366.585,"end":378.855,"text":"不是說關注台灣就覺得是打仗這是不應該這樣所以你我都要為了打仗來打拚在這裏本身要跟你談討的就是高利貸的社會住宅長久以來我以前也覺得我們的社會住宅對高利貸非常需要尤其現在高利貸要漸漸已經流利了很多"},{"start":396.608,"end":414.233,"text":"企業家都去家族館接觸．但畢竟家族館和婚姻是共同生活圈．所以在這個範圍內．婚姻委、家族企業．社會住宅．母親．"},{"start":416.954,"end":422.197,"text":"規劃四百九十一項,我認為非常不足,因為我們的地越來越去越來越開,讓年輕人要做一個事業,要走一個道路,也有非常擔憂。是不是部長和署長對於27未來的社會主宰,要如何如何給予以來的簡單回答?"},{"start":445.146,"end":452.792,"text":"感謝委員：對於我相信我們下一階段八年我們假期期我們一定會目標再往上再調因為我們年代是五百所以我你不要人家說八年我如果你說現在你對假期期有什麼補負有啦我們現在當局已經夠當局的補負我們已經夠兩天了我們現在也已經跟駐留中心在參詳要安排的時間還是有上條目標會再繼續往前走因為我們這幾年的時間夠了"},{"start":474.73,"end":474.89,"text":"：王美惠"}]}},{"id":"153224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13311840933d050bb0a5de1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b1957a77234ac69c45595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:44:45 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09:54:33","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T09:54:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T09:44:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":274,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時44分）我請部長。"],["主席：部長沒有休息，已經在臺上了。"],["張委員宏陸：但還是要禮貌一下，我要尊重召委。","部長，宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產暫行條例，其實也快要到期了。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：其實臺灣的宗教、寺廟很多問題是由來已久的，他們現在遇到最大的問題就是他們很難提出認定不動產為宗教團體實質所有的證明文件，這個時間很久了，也是歷史的共業。我們有沒有想要再給它延長一些時間？"],["劉部長世芳：是，非常謝謝張委員的關心，其實我前兩天有拜訪中國佛教會跟大高雄的佛教會，所有在佛教界的長老或長老尼也提到這樣的狀況，原則上我支持可以延長，因為地方政府在輔導這些宗教團體，不管是有自然人或者是非自然人的部分，確實我們的出家眾比較不瞭解俗事裡面的這些規則，我們願意多多來支持，我想這樣子，因為本來宗教就是維持我們社會治安，讓人民可以寬心的地方，他們為了這樣的法律，已經時間到了，不能夠再繼續做延長或做一個輔導的話，反而造成他們的困擾，所以我支持用這樣延長的方向，但是延長多久的時間，是不是讓我們內部有作業的時間以後，再跟各位委員來做報告？"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我也不贊成無限期延長。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你讓它無限期延長，它就沒有壓力，不趕快來處理。"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["張委員宏陸：我們是希望問題及早解決，其實這個問題在臺灣，每個宗教、宗派都遇到，我跟你講，很多教會在原住民的地方，其實可能一百年前就提供給他們了，現在又有很多產權的問題，你也不可能就把它拆掉，也不可能啊！對不對？各個宗教都有。道教以前很多還登記神明的名字等等什麼這些。"],["劉部長世芳：是，自然人……"],["張委員宏陸：很難處理嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：所以產生它未來遺產分配的問題。"],["張委員宏陸：對，所以我會建議可以適度地延長。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：另外，在我們臺灣的宗教寺廟有很多問題都是關於土地，不是只有這個，有一些寺廟是我們很多法令還沒有實施之前就已經在那邊了。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我們這一個部分、這一題，還有一個是有些寺廟是有國有地，但國有地現在不出售、不讓售，問題也沒辦法解決，這個宗教、這個廟已經既有存在了，我們應該去協調國有財產署，這個廟如果是財團法人或什麼，以後這個絕對不會變成私人財產的情況之下，國有財產署的土地在那邊，也是不能利用啊！不如就把土地讓售給它，或是長期租給它，可能租個100年、50年，這樣可以解決很多寺廟的問題，我不知道部長的看法為何？"],["劉部長世芳：是，非常謝謝張委員對宗教團體他們的需求瞭解得非常地深切，其實我也碰到有人告訴我，有一些已經列入古蹟，長達400年，400年前恐怕還沒有國有財產署，400年前我們的行政區劃也不是這個樣子。我所要推動的部分就是如果他能夠證明，譬如我們取得空照圖，在100年前或是50年前它已經在那個地方，它要現地當成是宗教團或宗教場所來使用，而不是營利，其實在我們的立場上，我們可以來協助它。至於根據財政部國有財產署的規定，現在的土地讓售大概面積會很小，還有如果要租的話，大概是9年為主，很多人會覺得租9年以後，我要再9年、再9年，這樣對不對？關於這個部分，我們再跟財政部做溝通。","我的想法，第一個因為宗教團體不是營利組織，不是買進來以後要蓋高樓大廈、要蓋民宿，要蓋非常好的，可以營利的部分，它只是一個宗教，在傳達一個正派，讓社會的民心可以撫慰的地方，所以我們先能夠保存，讓這個宗廟自己本身可以存在那個地方，不受其他的影響，至於它能不能取得國有財產地，還要看他們所在的範圍，第一個，我們一定要有共識，他們一定要避開土地所使用的敏感地帶，如果它有安全疑慮，恐怕站在我們官方的立場，不敢去同意這件事。但是如果沒有安全疑慮，我想在高山上很多寺廟大概會有類似土石流或是地震等等影響以外，我們用其他的行政手段，我們來跟地方政府一起合作。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個問題，不管是幾百年前的寺廟，或是幾十年的寺廟，我覺得我們都要去把它解決啦！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得只有一個啦，他如果買了這塊土地或長租這塊土地，就不能另作他用啦！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：永遠就只能當宗教寺廟，我覺得只有這樣子就可以解決很多寺廟的問題了。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我瞭解你的說法。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個來處理就好了嘛，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是因為我剛剛有提到，國有財產署不在內政部，我們會跟它協調。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，我覺得我們要主動去協調。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：由你內政部出來協調，他們也才敢做，然後可以解決，不然一個、一個寺廟，我覺得沒有辦法解決這些問題。"],["劉部長世芳：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我會朝著這方面來努力。"],["張委員宏陸：麻煩部長，你可以幫很多神明解決祂的問題，你會有很大的福田啦！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，我們服務國民。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，所有的神明都會保佑你，連基督教的天主啊、上帝啊什麼的，所有都會保護你啦！謝謝。","我還有一些時間問題，我想順便請警政署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，你知不知道現在有一種新興的，還沒有列入毒品的叫做「依托咪酯」。"],["張署長榮興：知道，這個是一個麻醉藥品。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我們現在查獲這個東西都怎麼處理？"],["張署長榮興：現在只要查獲的話，目前是用行政裁罰。"],["張委員宏陸：對，這個問題你知不知道現在在我們這個社會上，問題很嚴重？很多年輕人就在抽這個。"],["張署長榮興：對，所以我們會把這個狀況提到毒防中心來做一個處理，未來如果是在網路上廣告販售的，是用藥事法來處罰，如果是製造的，可以處十年以下有期徒刑，如果是供應販賣……"],["張委員宏陸：署長我跟你講，時間的關係，這個啊，年輕人流行說這叫喪屍啊！"],["張署長榮興：對，就是喪屍。"],["張委員宏陸：喪屍，就是屍體的屍。我跟你講，這個非常嚴重，我認為署長你剛上任，你應該把這個列為重點，趕快把它解決。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["張委員宏陸：然後同樣的問題，我們內政部應該主動跟衛福部跟什麼去聯繫，這個你把它當成藥事法去處理，我覺得不對。這個就是毒品，尤其是販售什麼的，我們應該把它積極納入，然後積極地去抓啊！我跟你講，一個新興毒品的產生，你不馬上把它鏟除的話，以後就會越來越多，然後等它變成一個很大的、龐大的事業鏈之後，它養了越多人你就越難處理，我覺得這個應該馬上積極處理啊！誰在賣，我看你們都可以查得出來啊！"],["張署長榮興：是，我覺得這些新興毒品如在第一時間就能夠把它納入毒品來做管理，會比較能夠在第一時間……"],["張委員宏陸：多久時間可以處理好？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["張委員宏陸：多久時間可以處理好？"],["張署長榮興：我們6月7號就會來開會了。"],["張委員宏陸：主席，給我30秒，這個問題很嚴重，多久時間可以處理好？我不是問你什麼時候要開會。"],["張署長榮興：把它納管嗎？"],["張委員宏陸：有兩個，第一個納入毒品管理，第二個你們要積極有效地去查。"],["張署長榮興：我們會積極來查處。"],["張委員宏陸：好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好。"],["張委員宏陸：所以你剛剛是說6月7號會納入毒品，是不是？"],["張署長榮興：我們毒審會會把它納入討論，是不是把它納入作為新興毒品的一個範圍，以後把它納入法律來做取締。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個跨部會要來做啦，如果你6月7號提出來，跨部會積極做，我認為3個月內就可以把它列入毒品，以後就可以依法去處理了啦！"],["張署長榮興：我們還沒納入之前，還是會積極查處。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個很嚴重，很多學生都在抽這個，我非常、非常地在乎這個問題，你們要把它當成一個很重要的事情來做，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好。"],["張委員宏陸：可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢跟提醒，謝謝署長、謝謝部長，謝謝。","繼續我們請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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非常謝謝張委員的關心那其實我前兩天有拜訪這個中國佛教會跟大高雄的佛教會所有的這些在佛教界的這個長老或長老你也提到這樣的狀況那原則上我支持可以延長"},{"start":71.627,"end":81.936,"text":"第一個就是說因為地方政府在輔導這些宗教團體不管是有自然人或者是非自然人的部分呢確實我們的出家眾他比較不了解俗世裡面的這些規則那我們願意多多來支持那我想這樣子因為本來在宗教就是維持我們社會治安讓人民可以寬信的地方然後那麼為了這樣的法律上面已經時間到了不能夠再繼續做延長或做一個輔導的方面的話呢"},{"start":99.13,"end":100.71,"text":"部長,我也不贊成無限期延長,你讓他無限期延長他就沒有壓力不趕快來處理,我們是希望問題及早解決,其實這個問題在台灣"},{"start":121.676,"end":140.832,"text":"每個宗教宗派都遇到我跟你講在很多那個教會在原住民的地方然後其實可能100年前我提供給你的那現在又很多產權的問題了那你也不可能就把它拆掉啊也不可能啊對不對各個宗教都有然後啊"},{"start":141.693,"end":146.875,"text":"在我們臺灣的這個宗教寺廟啊有很多的問題關於土地的問題不是只有這個有一些寺廟啊他是在"},{"start":171.26,"end":181.569,"text":"我們很多法令還沒有實施之前他就已經在那邊了那我們這個部分這一題還有一個有的寺廟是有國有地"},{"start":182.625,"end":203.798,"text":"但郭友麗現在無受不讓受啊那你問題也沒辦法解決啊那我們是不是就是說你就是在這個宗教這個廟已經既有存在了那我們應該去協調國有財產署他這個廟如果是財團法人或什麼他以後這個絕對不會變成私人財產的情況之下"},{"start":204.779,"end":207.761,"text":"非常謝謝張委員對宗教團體他們的需求了解得非常的深切其實我也碰到有人告訴我說有一些已經列入古蹟長達400年"},{"start":229.931,"end":242.842,"text":"400年前恐怕還沒有國有財產署400年前我們的行政區塊也不是這個樣子那我所要推動的部分就是說如果他能夠證明比如說我們取得空照圖在100年前或是說50年前他已經在那個地方的話他要限地當成是宗教團體或宗教場所來使用而不是營利的話其實在我們的立場上我們可以來協助他"},{"start":256.214,"end":268.986,"text":"財政部的國有財產署現在的土地讓售大概面積會很小還有就是如果你要租的話大概是九年為主那這個很多人會覺得說九年以後我要再九年再九年這樣對不對那這個部分呢我們來跟財政部來做這個溝通我的想法就第一個因為宗教團體不是盈利組織"},{"start":276.753,"end":276.773,"text":"張宏陸"},{"start":292.656,"end":321.179,"text":"中廟自己本身可以存在那個地方然後不受其他的影響那至於他能不能取得國有財產地還要看他們所在的範圍第一個我們一定要有共識他們一定要避開土地所使用的敏感地帶如果他有安全疑慮的話恐怕站在我們官方的立場不敢去同意這件事但是如果沒有安全疑慮我想在高山上很多寺廟大概會有類似土石流或是地震等等影響"},{"start":321.94,"end":349.775,"text":"以外我們用其他的行政手段我們來跟地方政府一起合作反正部長我覺得啦這個問題啦不管是幾百年前的寺廟或是幾十年的寺廟我覺得我們都要去把它解決啦我覺得只有一個一個啦他如果買了這塊土地或藏住這塊土地他不能另做他用啦永遠就只能當宗教寺廟我覺得只有這樣子就可以解決很多寺廟的問題啦"},{"start":350.776,"end":359.023,"text":"我覺得這個來處理就好了嘛好不好對但是因為我剛剛有提到那個國有財產署不在內政部我們會跟他協調我覺得我們要主動去協調你有有你內政部出來協調他們也才敢做然後可以解決嘛不然一個一個寺廟我覺得沒有辦法解決這些問題好不好麻煩部長麻煩部長"},{"start":373.235,"end":373.475,"text":"順便請警政署長"},{"start":394.332,"end":408.845,"text":"請署長你知不知道有一種現在新興的還沒有列入毒品的叫做伊托米茲知道這個是一個麻醉藥品對那我們現在查獲這個東西我們都怎麼處理"},{"start":410.271,"end":425.603,"text":"現在只要潮的話現在目前是用行政採訪那的行政採訪對那這個問題你知不知道現在在是在我們啊這個社會上的問題很嚴重很多年輕人就在抽這個"},{"start":426.283,"end":426.483,"text":"時間的關係這個啊"},{"start":450.7,"end":477.799,"text":"年輕人流行說這叫喪屍啊對 就喪屍喪屍啊 屍體的屍 喪屍跟點我跟你講 這個非常嚴重我認為署長你剛上任你應該把這個內容重點趕快把它解決啊對 然後同樣的問題我們內政部應該主動跟衛福部跟什麼然後去聯繫這個你把它當成要事法去處理我覺得不對"},{"start":479.321,"end":498.717,"text":"這個就是毒品了,尤其是販售什麼的,我們應該把它積極納入啊,然後積極的去抓啊我跟你講,一個新興的毒品的產生,你不馬上把它剷除的話,以後就越來越多然後咧,等它變成一個很大的這個龐大的事業鏈之後,它養的越多人,你越難處理"},{"start":499.858,"end":500.159,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":519.906,"end":522.429,"text":"這個主席給我30秒 這個問題很嚴重所以 多久時間可以處理 我不是問你什麼時候要開會"},{"start":533.444,"end":557.025,"text":"把他納管嘛有兩個第一個納入毒品管理第二個你們要積極有效的去查我們會積極來查來查處好不好所以6月7號你是剛是說6月7號會納入毒品是不是我們都審會會把他納入來做一個討論是把他納入做為新型毒品的一個範圍那以後把他納入法律來做取調"},{"start":558.126,"end":571.284,"text":"我覺得啦 這個跨部會要來做啦 如果你6月7號提出來 跨部會積極做我認為啊 三個月內就可以把它列入毒品 以後就可以依法去處理了那我們還沒到之前還是會積極來做一個查處"},{"start":572.312,"end":572.352,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331f06c3fa0580477d4de1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b195ff9dbc3ffde695e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:36:24 - 09:44:37","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":493,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-20"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T09:44:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T09:36:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":231,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時36分）部長，喝口水，沒關係。"],["劉部長世芳：牛委員早。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝主席，部長早安。內政部業務報告真的是事情很多，我們就挑一些比較重要的東西，今天先跟部長做一下政策對話。本席首先要跟部長討論的是有關居住正義的問題，有關居住正義，本席關心的題目大概分成幾個面向，第一個剛剛很多委員也關心，就是我們社會住宅建設的進度能不能順利達標。當然我們都知道，政府在規劃幾年幾百萬戶的相關政策時，喊都一定要喊高一點，但實際上在執行的時候其實會遇到很多困難和障礙，我想請問部長大概有多少把握？剛剛聽起來是8年後要100萬戶、全部加起來100萬戶，你們有幾成的信心可以達標？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，其實我剛剛已經有跟委員報告過，所謂百萬戶的目標就是25萬戶是直接興建，50萬戶是包租代管，另外25萬戶的話就是屬於租金補貼，這個部分就表示未來我們會嘉惠到100萬戶的年輕或是弱勢族群。以過去8年的進度，到今年年底的時候，中央跟地方政府加在一起的直接興建是12萬戶左右，以這樣的進度，未來8年我們用13萬戶的直接興建來處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：有把握完成？"],["劉部長世芳：有把握的部分是第一個，我們現在會改變一些方式，譬如說我們跟需地比較多的，像北北基桃這些地方政府，我們希望未來如果有好的都市計畫，能夠在都市計畫裡面提撥一部分的土地，由地方政府讓中央政府來興建。"],["牛委員煦庭：這正是本席今天要跟你討論的，也就是我們為了社宅進度順利達標，其實中央和地方的關係是非常重要的，我想要瞭解的是未來，因為過去這8年基本上社會住宅有的是地方興建，有的是中央興建，其實出現了步調不見得一致的情況，我想請問，經過這8年的經驗，未來政府在處理社會住宅建設的問題上，是由中央全面來主導，還是由內政部釋出資源來補助地方？大概是走哪一種模式？"],["劉部長世芳：雙方都有，最主要是我們如果能夠提高興建住宅的績效，譬如說是中央蓋比較快，我比較簡單講，或者是地方蓋比較快，我們全部都可以支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以基本上都不會否定，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：都不會否定。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是有沒有主從？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：靈活調整？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚你所謂的「主從」是什麼意思，就是說……"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是說，你要以中央為主，因為規劃政策的時候要投入資源，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以如果你說中央主導興建，相對來講它可能就是中央主導。"],["劉部長世芳：但是地方如果願意興建的話，對於地方人民帶來的福利也相當地多。"],["牛委員煦庭：你也會鼓勵嘛！所以本席想要做兩點提醒。第一個是，你如果要採中央主導興建的模式的話，那麼相對來說，你應該要給予都市計畫，相對跟地方政府還是要有合作嘛！你還是要提供地方誘因嘛！因為你要由中央來興建，地方也要出土地嘛！對不對？你還是有需地的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以中央跟地方要一起合作來做這件事情，不是只有把社會住宅蓋出來而已，我是希望內政部有都市計畫等等相關的工具，在規劃的過程中充分尊重地方的意見，不只是把社會住宅蓋好，而是由這個東西去帶動周邊的都市發展，把生活機能處理好，這樣子地方政府可以要到他要的東西，他會比較樂意把更多的土地提供出來，讓中央來做社會住宅的興建。你如果要走中央主導，就要走這樣子的模式，這是本席的建議。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指導。"],["牛委員煦庭：再來，你如果要走大量補助地方，那我就希望內政部該下的資源就要下，以過去幾年來看，本席從基層出身，從中央得到的資源還是不夠的，地方建設社宅其實未來都會變成財務負擔，所以中央要隨時檢討，然後釋出更多的資源給地方，中央跟地方合作，才能夠讓社會住宅的建設進度可以順利來達標。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝指導，我們來努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個是有關軟體的部分，有關社會住宅現行的機制，入住的機制現在是採取抽籤制，就是一般戶跟政策戶，抽到了就抽到了，沒有抽到就下次重新來，那是不是有機會在新政府的領導之下，把它改成所謂的輪候制，也就是說有一個積分的算法，因為大家需求的程度其實是可以做一個基本量化的，按照這個量化的成本來做排隊，優先的就可以優先入住，這一次沒有輪到，下一次新的社宅蓋的時候，他的優先順序就提升了，這樣子我覺得才符合真正公平正義的原則。請問內政部，針對社會住宅輪候制，現在有規劃的進度嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：其實有，我請署長來跟您回應一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們現行的制度裡面就有留著輪候制，在未來的社宅經營裡面，輪候制也會是一個很重要的制度。"],["牛委員煦庭：那有沒有具體上路的時間，比如說更明確的一點或是怎樣？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們在新的全面……大概從明年開始，我們會有比較大量的社宅進入到中央開始正式經營，其實輪候制本來就是我們在規劃裡面很重要的一個制度。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以明年初嘛？沒關係，會後你內部的書面報告先提供給我們，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個是租屋市場透明化，這個本席未來也會提修法的一些相關方案，希望內政部妥善因應。也就是說現在只有包租的業者來做所謂的實價登錄，先從政府掌握市場狀況開始，然後逐步逐步地來做透明，代管的數量其實比包租多很多，所以這部分應該要逐步來處理。最後包含租屋補貼其實都應該要納入，我們政府投入了這麼多的資源去處理這個事情，如果沒有辦法讓這個市場從黑市裡面走出來，那我想這些資源其實都會浪費，所以這個也是本席非常要求的，也會持續來監督政府對於租屋市場透明的進度，希望內政部一樣會後提供一個資料，做一個通盤的規劃，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我很簡單講，轉租的部分已經納入實價登錄，但是包租代管的租賃契約資訊要改為即時提供的話，我們還需要再跟業者來溝通，溝通好會跟牛委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，就是一個相關的規劃期程，我們一步一步往前走。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這是居住正義的部分。","第二個，時間實在很有限，沒關係，但我們簡單點一下。本席也非常關心公寓大廈管理，這件事情其實非常重要，越來越多的臺灣人民居住在公寓大廈裡面，但是始終不管在地方政府也好，在中央政府也好，你都很難找到一個負責的專責單位，我們希望未來的公寓大廈管理可以再做調整，我們不要每次都只是像城中城大火之後，然後都只是針對安全的部分來處理。本席重視的是軟體，也就是怎麼樣建立一個健康的管理環境，包含政府端能不能夠簡化行政程序，讓公寓大廈管理變成一件相對輕鬆的事，讓這些擔任管理委員會主委跟管理委員的住戶不要有這麼大的負擔，從廠商的角度，我怎麼樣輔導社區，讓它可以找到，經過分級篩選，可以放心採購，社區也要辦採購嘛！對不對？能夠找到這樣好的物業公司或者是相關的採購公司，讓公寓大廈的採購可以透明，讓住戶可以放心，這是廠商端。第三個是社區端，也就是一般的人民，你要讓他有公寓大廈管理的概念，也要讓他知道什麼叫管理，如何做社區的溝通，這樣才能夠大量降低裡面的糾紛，從而改善生活品質。這件事今天我們開個頭，相關詳細的問題跟建議，我們會用書面的方式提供給內政部，希望內政部也針對這件事情好好來做一個規劃。","最後一個是本席非常重要的政見，就是行政區劃法，也是現在的賴總統過去做行政院長的時候，曾經提出的院版方案。這個我們一路都有在做研究，本席的選區生活圈非常破碎，有很多這樣的行政區劃重新調整的必要性，我們會提出相關的草案，我也希望院裡面也要有一套自己的說法，我們再來做詳細的討論。第一，建立遊戲規則，第二，我們的版本會要求人民的表達跟參與是很重要的，透過這樣子的討論，讓政府更清楚知道人民對於生活圈的想像是什麼，如何讓他參與，讓它更健全地來發展，希望行政區劃法的修訂內政部也做好準備，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝部長，謝謝。","繼續我們請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-20","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","牛煦庭","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","麥玉珍","黃捷","黃建賓","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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部長 喝口水沒關係好 優委員早好 謝謝主席 部長早安這個內政部業務報告真的是事情很多那我們就挑一些比較重要的東西今天先跟部長做一下政策對話是首先第一個問題這個本席要跟那個部長討論的是有關於居住正義的問題居住正義大概分成本席關心的題目大概分成幾個面向第一個有 電腦在哪裡"},{"start":39.204,"end":61.769,"text":"第一個剛剛很多委員也關心我們社會住宅建設的進度能不能順利達標因為當然我們都知道政府在規劃我們有幾年幾百萬戶相關一些政策的時候其實喊都一定要喊高一點但實際上在執行的時候其實會遇到很多的困難跟障礙那我想請問部長大家有多少把握你們剛剛聽起來是8年後要100萬戶全部加起來100萬戶你有幾成的信心可以達標"},{"start":62.709,"end":86.914,"text":"跟委員報告其實我剛剛已經有跟委員報告過所謂的百萬戶的目標就是25萬戶是直接興建那50萬戶的話就是包租貸款然後25萬戶的話就是屬於租金補貼那這個部分就表示說未來我們會加匯到100萬戶的年輕或是弱勢族群那以過去8年的進度到今年年底的時候呢中央跟地方政府加在一起的直接興建是12萬戶左右"},{"start":89.714,"end":89.734,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":113.968,"end":142.641,"text":"這是本席今天要跟你討論也就是我們為了要達成社宅進度順利達標這樣一個狀況其實中央跟地方關係是非常重要的我想要了解未來因為過去這8年基本上社會住宅等於是有的是地方興建有的是中央興建然後它其實出現了步調不見得一致的一個情況那我想請問經過這8年的經驗未來政府在處理社會住宅建設的問題上是由中央全面來主導還是由內政部釋出資源來補助地方大概是走哪一種模式"},{"start":142.941,"end":144.463,"text":"所以基本上都不會否定對不對?都不會否定"},{"start":159.72,"end":181.445,"text":"沒有沒有 靈活調整不清楚你的主從是什麼意思就是說你要以中央為主嘛因為你規劃政策的時候你要投入資源嘛對不對如果你說中央主導興建那相對來講他可能就是中央主導但是地方如果他願意興建的話對於地方人民的這個呃帶來的福利也相當的多你也會鼓勵嘛這本議只要做兩點提醒啦第一個你如果是要用中央主導興建這樣子的一個模式的話"},{"start":182.105,"end":182.505,"text":"市長市長市長市長"},{"start":203.314,"end":204.476,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":224.918,"end":243.73,"text":"那我就希望內政部該下的資源就要下以過去幾年本席從基層出身這個從中央得到的資源還是不夠的地方建設設宅其實未來都會變成財務負擔所以說中央要隨時檢討然後釋出更多的資源給地方這樣子我們才中央地方合作才能夠讓社會住宅的建設進度可以順利來達標"},{"start":244.872,"end":245.633,"text":"謝謝指導 我們來努力"},{"start":256.363,"end":278.998,"text":"那是不是有這個機會在新的政府領導之下大家把它改成所謂的輪候制啊也就是說大家有一個積分的算法因為我有些大家需求的程度其實是可以做一個基本量化的嘛那就按照這個量化成本來做一個排隊那這個優先的就可以優先入住這一次沒有輪到下一次新的社宅蓋的時候它的優先區是提升的這樣子我覺得才符合真正公平正義的原則請問內政部針對社會住宅輪候制現在有規劃的進度嗎"},{"start":282.56,"end":294.899,"text":"其實有 我可以請這個署長來跟您回應一下其實我們現行的制度裡面就有留著輪候制那其實在未來的這個社宅經營裡面輪候制也會是一個很重要的制度"},{"start":295.768,"end":323.644,"text":"那有沒有具體上路的時間比他更明確的一點因為我們在新的全面在從大概明年開始我們會有比較大量的社宅會進入到中央的這個開始開始正式經營的時候藉由輪候制本來就是我們在規劃裡面很重要的一個制度所以明年初嘛沒關係你這會後你先內部的書面報告先提供給我們好不好好第三個是租屋市場透明化這個本期未來有提修法的一些相關方案希望內政部妥善引引也就是說現在只有包租的"},{"start":324.304,"end":341.634,"text":"的業者來做所謂的實價登錄那先從政府掌握市場狀況開始然後逐步逐步的來做透明代管的數量其實比包租多很多所以這部分應該要逐步來處理那最後包含租屋補貼其實都應該要納入我們政府投入了這麼多的資源去處理這個事情"},{"start":342.054,"end":356.05,"text":"如果沒有辦法讓這個市場從黑市裡面走出來那我想這些資源其實都是會變成浪費所以這個也是本席非常要求也會持續來監督這個政府對於租屋市場透明的進度希望內政部一樣你會後提供一個資料做一個通盤的規劃可以嗎"},{"start":357.011,"end":385.793,"text":"好我很簡單講齁轉租的部分已經納入實價的登錄齁但是包租代管的租賃契約資訊要改為即時提供的話我們還需要再跟業者來溝通那溝通好了會跟牛委員報告就一個相關的一個規劃期程啦我們一步一步往前走好謝謝好這是居住證益部分第二個時間實在很有限沒關係但我們簡單點一下本系也非常關心公寓大廈管理齁這件事情其實非常重要越來越多的台灣人民居住在公寓大廈裡面但是始終不管在地方政府也好在中央政府也好你都很難找到一個負責的專責單位"},{"start":387.074,"end":413.269,"text":"那我們希望未來的公益大廈管理可以再做調整我們不要每次都只是像城中城大火之後然後每次都只是針對安全的部分來處理本期重視的是軟體也就是怎麼樣建立一個健康的管理環境包含政府端你能不能夠簡化行政程序讓公益大廈管理變成一些相對輕鬆的事讓這些擔任管理委員會主委跟管理委員的這些住戶不要有這麼大的負擔從廠商的角度我怎麼樣輔導社區讓他可以找到經過分級篩選"},{"start":415.23,"end":415.31,"text":"：牛煦庭"},{"start":438.297,"end":439.158,"text":"那這次今天我們開個頭相關詳細的問題跟建議我們會用書面的方式提供給內政部希望內政部也針對這件事情好好來做一個規劃"},{"start":448.823,"end":474.256,"text":"最後一個是本期非常重要的一個政見是行政區劃法也是現在賴總統過去做行政院長的時候曾經提出的院版的方案這個我們已經一路都有在做研究本期的選區生活圈非常破碎有很多這樣的行政區劃重新調整的必要性我們會提出相關的草案我也希望院裡面也要有一套自己的說法我們再來做詳細的討論第一建立遊戲規則第二我們的版本會要求人民的表達"},{"start":475.296,"end":475.977,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"153222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331ea76096ea041a8cdde1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b195b5913bc53196dc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:27:30 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不是真的設宅百萬戶是這樣嗎"},{"start":163.098,"end":184.592,"text":"新建的部分是25萬戶然後包租代管還有其他的租金補貼總共加起來全部三項加起來就是100萬戶所以說當時賴總統的政見的這個社宅百萬戶的部分現在目前是指社會租屋百萬戶這樣的概念是嗎三項全部加在一起原來就是這樣子這些都叫社會住宅"},{"start":185.392,"end":209.837,"text":"社會住宅百萬戶的意思就是其實大部分就是25萬戶的社會住宅25萬戶的高租代管加50萬戶的租金那我想這可能跟我們一般人認知是不太一樣因為我們一看到大概都會覺得這個大概就是社會住宅的概念那請問一下現在目前為止您說的25萬戶的社會住宅可能大概好像還需要"},{"start":210.977,"end":233.034,"text":"下一個8年也就是114年到121年才能夠累積25萬戶的這個新建社會住宅那請問這個時程有可能推快嗎?要不然8年的時間才25萬戶的話其實可能是的 跟許委員報告一下到今年年底的時候呢總共推出的就中央加地方的大約是12萬戶所以我們用這樣推算在未來到117年"},{"start":237.185,"end":240.82,"text":"你上面寫121年 未來的8年的話大概也是13萬戶"},{"start":242.441,"end":252.586,"text":"所以說等於這個進度的話可能也我想大家的感受是有點偏慢因為現在就已經12萬戶了未來8年再13萬戶其實我想我們現在任期是4年那你現在想是未來的8年才會有這個另外13萬戶所以這個計畫的編列我覺得可能要請部長這邊再能夠加快的速度進度的部分再把它補強希望能夠越快越好"},{"start":268.633,"end":291.878,"text":"另外再請教部長我們現在有一個國土計劃法要推動根據它第45條的規定應該在114年4月30號前公告國土功能分區圖但是到4月底之前只有金門連江花連江國土功能分區圖的法定書圖提交給內政部來審議請問一下還有19個還沒有完成的政府內政部要怎麼協助他們"},{"start":297.779,"end":297.939,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":314.713,"end":332.766,"text":"能不能如期在6月7號以前送到內政部來審查是有一些疑慮他希望我們多做溝通那我們也了解到說其他的縣市政府包括有一些宗教團體或者是農漁民團體都有表達不同的意見那目前我們還是希望說他們能夠按照原來"},{"start":334.227,"end":352.218,"text":"由內政部的國土管理署的方向 送到我們部體頭來審議當然我們這個委員：大院的委員 也有提到說有沒有需要延期的部分那延期的真正理由 我們如果瞭解狀況 可以馬上排解就排解如果沒有馬上排解的話 我們會審慎評估"},{"start":356.441,"end":379.552,"text":"國土計劃法的規定的話就是被歸列為是農業發展地區的話就不能再變更這對於農業線的影響很大其實是可以變更的因為國土計劃法那是不是要跟各縣市充分溝通因為像臺中市長盧秀燕也說對六都的發展有很大的衝擊還有雲林縣長也表示說在這個國土計劃法的現行的框架上2025年如果正常上路對於農業大線來說太吃虧"},{"start":381.693,"end":388.094,"text":"所以說雲林縣也會暫緩提交內政部的審議所以這個部分請內政部要跟這些縣市充分的溝通讓他們了解所有過去計劃法想要推動的重點我相信這個部分才能夠順利的來推動否則的話大家都覺得我們做不到你現在把我框住尤其是雲林縣它現在想要成為一個農工商並進的大縣全部把它框為是這個農業用地的話他們根本沒有辦法發展"},{"start":407.058,"end":426.843,"text":"這個部分再拜託部長另外最後一個問題想請教部長就是有關打詐因為現在詐騙的問題非常的嚴重就是根據警政署的統計假交友假投資的合計占全部詐欺案類的30%那我們也可以看到這個螢幕上你可以看到我們這從109年開始發生的這個詐騙的這個案件跟金額不減反增而且到去年度"},{"start":435.345,"end":438.328,"text":"民進黨執政8年來詐騙案件數越來越高,那要怎麼樣避免被詐騙?內政部警政署有沒有加強宣導具體的方案在哪裡?"},{"start":457.286,"end":466.434,"text":"謝謝許委員的垂詢當然詐騙的部分投資的詐騙最多那目前為止我們內政部警政署所處理的部分是有關於市詐我們來加強165的宣傳之外我們也會加強這個頻率那最重要就是我們送到這個大院來要審查的新打詐釋法裡面有一個這個詐欺犯罪危害條例是警政署全面負責因為我們如果有比較好的法源基礎跟規範的話未來如果處理"},{"start":485.35,"end":485.51,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":501.81,"end":501.99,"text":"許宇甄"}]}},{"id":"153221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13310fdedd1fa75735e2de1b7f2d659cc489333bc5d453e1b195b15f586c2d5e0a655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:18:45 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那這就牽涉到消防署的研究量能夠不夠我看到的是什麼我們在20我們在111年的12月成立了消防科技研發辦公室但是它的編制是什麼它的編制只有6名消防人員而且不是專責然後它的經費是什麼它的經費是只有消防發展基金會支應80萬元"},{"start":319.378,"end":319.578,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":341.34,"end":341.62,"text":"科技的部分目前在計畫裡面"},{"start":359.505,"end":361.266,"text":"針對人員定位正在研究"},{"start":382.15,"end":382.25,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":400.467,"end":400.987,"text":"新加坡內政科技局"},{"start":420.279,"end":420.519,"text":"：蘇巧慧"},{"start":446.613,"end":464.839,"text":"那是不是能夠做出更好的政策讓保護我們在維護社會安全的人員我覺得這是一個可以考慮的方向部長 我再說一次我覺得真正能夠降低消防弟兄發生危險的狀況就是面對高危險性的火場的時候讓他們有更大的機會有更好的機制 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讓每一個小農都成為這個商業模式裡面的一個參與者這才能夠讓整個我們的農村的永續發展可以比得上就是說比先進的國家更好是不是我想謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":337.045,"end":359.301,"text":"如果單純從小農自己去做資源在利用,它的效率非常低。所以怎麼樣把小農串在一起變成一個大的。所以我們現在在推的集團產區就是這樣的一個概念。那你集團產區再透過一些有系統的運輸系統,那就能夠把這些剩餘資材集結在一起。那才有機會去做它的能源化、材料化等。"},{"start":360.452,"end":376.478,"text":"我還有一個問題就是陳吉仲是農業部的前部長所以我相信他一定非常了解你們的情況他說臺灣的農業的重電都是用來賣的而不是農業致用的那這個問題怎麼改善"},{"start":383.527,"end":399.55,"text":"我想現在這個牽涉到本身的使用到農地的本身的光電產生的電他是賣給台電然後台電再送到依照他的需求就做調節但是有一部分的"},{"start":401.48,"end":425.156,"text":"光電它是可以自用的。那這個部分我想蔚然農業部會推的特別是在漁村。漁村不管你是屋頂型的或是你在這邊有一些產製除消的這些光電我們希望是能夠在漁村自用。這是我們努力的目標。那相對的現在的漁電共生本身的光電都是送到台電去等於賣電的部分。"},{"start":425.916,"end":445.552,"text":"那這個部分怎麼做?因為其實上一次我們水市所沒有來嘛,對不對?其實我們有講到我們方院區、我們方院鄉的這個文革啊,它有非常多就是因為是他們所有的文革的業者認為說是不是受到"},{"start":446.749,"end":465.708,"text":"﹗"},{"start":465.768,"end":469.589,"text":"我跟委員說明那個報告我們跟平科大已經在做研究了因為他們有低頻的研究所那低頻有時候我們對我們人不一定"},{"start":489.454,"end":489.474,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":505.31,"end":505.33,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331b5d25a4cc6130b59db3ca66b34e87331333bc5d453e1b19510ab85f957d34f9a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:35:56 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10:47:19","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":683,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":27,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-27"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:47:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:35:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時36分）主席，我們請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：前兩週發生監護處分人從基隆某醫院脫逃的案例，在整個大臺北地區流竄4天後落網，短短幾天的時間我們看到除了警力全力緝捕，一時間大量的新聞報導情況之下，也在網路上流竄了他的行蹤地點，都讓民眾感到相當的恐慌，幸好最後在沒有發生遺憾的情況之下成功將這個男子緝捕歸案。今天特別感謝吳召委排的這個專報，不但是對於先前脫逃的事件做一個檢討，也能夠對於我們目前暫行安置與監護處分制度的執行狀況來做一個詳加檢討。","我想不論是暫行安置還是監護處分，都是為了兼顧刑事和醫療的需求，也是我們社會安全網重要的一環，但在保障人權的前提之下應該還是要極力避免脫逃的狀況再發生。我想請教部長，我們現在對於暫行安置或是監護處分在執行的過程中，這種防逃的機制應該要如何落實？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在規劃的時候再加強安全維護的設施跟人員的訓練，這部分我們也會落實。目前司法精神醫院還沒有建置完成，只有一個司法精神病房。目前這些安置的收治醫療處所，我們會著重在他的整個設備跟安全，譬如說他的門禁管制以及萬一發生這些事件的時候，如何去啟動防逃的機制，上次基隆那個應該是在放風的時候跑掉的。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，放風的時候。"],["鄭部長銘謙：在放風的時候跑掉。所以我們這次趕緊請各地檢署在盤點時檢視醫療處所的安全措施是不是到位，我們也請他們改善，這部分我們也會再重整。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這也是提醒啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：請法務部對於這方面做提升，我剛剛聽應該部長也有想法，我認為應該要落實。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們從基隆的個案來看，醫院是不是有違反保安處分的相關法規？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分目前主要是延遲通報的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：他應該沒有在時間內通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，他延遲了5小時。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。對於這個收容醫療機構的安全，我想就戒護外醫的部分請教部長，如果今天在這個收容機構的患者因為身體不舒服需要轉診到其他地方看醫生，我們現有的戒護人員已經能夠確保萬無一失嗎？尤其是我要請教您，戒護人員的身分是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我請黃次長來代為回答。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。關於戒護人員，按照相關規定我們戒護處所是得設戒護人員。現在如果沒有設的話，我們另外也規定可以委由戒護機構去雇用相關的戒護人員來進行戒護。"],["陳委員俊宇：雇用戒護人員？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：可是如果以基隆這一件……"],["黃次長謀信：基隆它不是我們保安處分執行處所，它是我們跟醫院簽約的……"],["陳委員俊宇：那也是契約委外的？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以他在戒護的過程裡，如果不清楚他戒護的病患是什麼樣的人……"],["黃次長謀信：如果說在個案簽約的處所，個別的醫院需要戒護就醫的醫治，通常他會請求執行的地檢署支援法警去做戒護。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，我現在是說安全的問題，因為如果有殺人未遂的，你請一般的保全公司去戒護這也蠻奇怪的。"],["黃次長謀信：所以在個案發生的時候，他常常會請求地檢署的法警戒護就醫。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，次長您先請回。另外，根據精神衛生法第五十二條第一項的規定，在精神照護機構對病患擅自離開機構時，應該要通知家屬及保護人；病患行蹤不明時，應即刻通知地方主管機關的警察機構來協助協尋。但是我們剛剛講的部分，在通報方面似乎是延誤了4個小時才通報，這4個小時就足夠讓這個病患的行蹤難以追查。當時也造成基隆附近的這些縣市，在學校方面都禁止訪客進入了。所以我想請教部長，所謂應即刻通知，應該在多久的時間之內就要通知？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題是，收容機構和當地的警察機關之間通報的管道是否暢通？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個發現的話我們是要求即時通知，馬上就要通報了。"],["陳委員俊宇：即時通知所以沒有時間的限制，那我們目前跟警察機關之間的管道有沒有暢通？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個管道通知的話，我們是第一時間就會通報警方……"],["李簡任技正炳樟：跟委員報告，目前各家醫院都有跟在地的警察局保持聯絡，所以就像剛剛部長講的，當下病人不假離開就應該通知在地的警察單位。"],["陳委員俊宇：可是這個部分我還是強調，像基隆這個案子，他雖然是委外契約的醫療機構，我們還是要跟他們告知，就是在通報上應該適時的去檢討啦！因為有時候他可能主管更換或是怎樣，會不會導致這個病患在脫逃的時候沒有第一時間去通報，所以才會衍生這個延誤通報的問題，這個部分也請我們相關單位應該要重視。","再來，這次的這個個案追捕當中，有人提出公布的監護處分人照片和實際的長相有所差距，恐怕難以辨認。法務部這邊是不是可以研擬，在病患就醫的過程裡面，每一個階段是不是有一個不定時的拍照來存檔，以備不時之需，有沒有可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：拍照這部分是會涉及到個資，就是肖像權的問題，這部分我們再來研議。"],["陳委員俊宇：是不是可以設計一個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：可行性。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，可行性的方式。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在法制上是不是可以有辦法去做到，就像委員提到每一個時間就給他拍一張存檔起來，這部分的適法性我們再來研究。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我想我們負責執行的檢察官平時業務已經非常的繁重，部長您也是檢察官出身，可能有相關的經驗可以分享。依據法務部的資料來看，每年監護處分執行的個案大概是200名。在保安處分執行法第四十八條裡面規定，檢察官對於受監護處分之人與指揮執行後至少每個月應該要去視察一次並製作紀錄，我想這也是對於個案的情況能夠隨時掌握的必要措施。像上次的這個基隆案例來看，北檢的檢察官執行送往基隆的機構，最後又將這個病患送到高雄的司法精神病院來執行。如果機構分佈在各地會不會讓檢察官需要長途跋涉，在視察上要花費比較多的時間？這個問題我們有什麼方式可以來解決？或是用一些線上的遠距離的方式來處理可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來研究，不過我們到目前為止就是要求檢察官每月要去訪視一次。以後精神病房分佈在北、中、南、東，那精神醫院這部分的設置當然是跟各地檢署有一些距離。我想這個方便性部分我們會參酌委員的這些意見，研擬是不是用這樣的方式會比較適合。我們也是鼓勵最好是親自去訪視，能夠直接去看現場，這部分是比較方便，委員這部分的寶貴意見，我們來參酌。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。在司法精神病院方面，我想請教部長，就是我們目前好像有在規劃未來有可能會建置北、中、南、東都有司法精神病房，因為現在好像只有在南部有而已。"],["鄭部長銘謙：已經在收治了。"],["陳委員俊宇：這個部分比如說未來有可能在東部的哪一個地點，有沒有可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們就不方便……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，沒關係。那可不可以讓我知道我們設置司法精神病房的設置要件，要符合什麼樣的條件才有可能在那個點來設置，有沒有可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再跟……"],["陳委員俊宇：這個部分會後再給我一份資料，還是我們私下再討論一下。我也期待各區域的司法精神病院建置完成之後，能夠妥善因應相關監護的需求，來讓相關的病患有一個比較好而且比較方便照顧的地方，也能夠期待他們在這個照顧過程中，他們身體的健康狀況能夠慢慢的獲得照顧跟好轉。這個部分也請法務部跟衛福部好好的去思考這個問題，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請林思銘委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 暫行安\n置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.99409375,"end":21.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.11971875,"end":108.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.35534375,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.56971875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.40846875000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.33659375,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.83784375000002,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.54284375,"end":157.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.69034375,"end":154.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.30159375000002,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.77409375000002,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.57721875000001,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.18034375000002,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.78721875000002,"end":183.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.59659375,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.20409375,"end":188.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.96346875,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.71784375000001,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.05534375000002,"end":195.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.88221875000002,"end":204.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.64034375,"end":209.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.18034375000002,"end":205.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.47096875000003,"end":211.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.74471875,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.64284375000003,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.11034375000003,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.16721875000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.03159375,"end":239.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.79096875000002,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.07346875000002,"end":245.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.32534375,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.52346875,"end":264.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.39034375,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.11971875,"end":276.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.65909375,"end":283.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.05846875000003,"end":294.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.53346875,"end":303.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.86221875,"end":297.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.68409375000005,"end":307.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.81409375000004,"end":307.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.96596875,"end":309.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.68721875,"end":352.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.81971875000005,"end":367.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.71596875,"end":375.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.93909375000004,"end":373.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.11159375,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.00596875,"end":377.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.82846875,"end":382.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.65909375,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.99221875,"end":383.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.16909375,"end":392.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.51784375,"end":394.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.53471875,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.96721875000003,"end":423.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.93096875000003,"end":432.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.82409375000003,"end":438.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.14846875,"end":436.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.57034375,"end":436.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.00034375,"end":467.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.58659375,"end":478.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.93096875000003,"end":482.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.83784375000005,"end":480.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.25534375,"end":492.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.56159375000004,"end":496.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.64534375000005,"end":564.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.8372187500001,"end":564.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5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主席吳釗瑋我們請鄭部長好 麻煩鄭部長"},{"start":26.175,"end":52.514,"text":"好部長早委員好部長早在前兩週啦齁前兩週我們這個監護處分人從基隆這個某醫院脫逃的案例那在整個大台北地區流竄4天後落網短短幾天的時間我們也看到除了警力全力氣捕一時間大量的這個新聞報導情況之下也在網路上流竄了他的行蹤地點"},{"start":53.194,"end":78.608,"text":"那我想都讓民眾感到相當的恐慌那幸好最後在沒有發生情況的這個遺憾的情況之下成功將這個男子棄補歸案那今天特別感謝吳昭偉所排的這個專報不但是對於先前脫逃的這個事件做一個檢討也能夠對於我們日前暫行安置與監護處分制度的這個執行狀況來做一個詳加檢討"},{"start":81.69,"end":108.292,"text":"那我想不論是暫行安置還是監護處分都是為了要兼顧刑事和醫療的需求也是我們社會安全網重要的一環但在保障人權的前提之下應該還是要極力避免脫逃的這種狀況再發生那我想請教部長我們現在對於暫行安置或是監護處分在執行的過程中這種防逃的機制應該要如何來落實"},{"start":111.543,"end":132.711,"text":"這部分我們在規劃的時候我們在加強這個安全維護的設施跟人員的訓練這部分我們是會落實那我們在指定目前是司法精神醫院還沒有建置完成只有一個司法精神病房那我們目前的這些的"},{"start":133.951,"end":134.931,"text":"上次基隆那個應該是在放風的時候"},{"start":158.373,"end":158.593,"text":"陳俊宇議員"},{"start":177.301,"end":198.176,"text":"這也是提醒請我們法務部這邊就對於這方面應該做提升那我剛剛聽應該部長您也有想法那我希望應該要落實那我們從這個基隆的個案來看醫院是不是有違反這個保安處分的相關法規有嗎這部分的是"},{"start":198.916,"end":201.076,"text":"對於收容醫療機構的安全,我想這種外衣介護的部分請教部長。"},{"start":221.155,"end":221.215,"text":"委員好"},{"start":250.612,"end":275.98,"text":"那有關於那個介護人員我按照我們相關規定我們介護處所我們是得設介護人員對那現在如果沒有設的話我們另外也規定可以委由這個介護機構他去僱用相關的介護人員來進行介護僱用介護人員對可是如果以基隆的這一件基隆他那不是我們的他不是我們保安組份執行處所他是我們跟可是那也是契約委外的契約委外"},{"start":276.22,"end":276.941,"text":"對,我現在是說安全的問題"},{"start":296.938,"end":308.725,"text":"因為你如果有殺人未遂的你請一般的保全公司去接護這也蠻奇怪的所以在個案發生的時候他常常會請求地檢署來把法警接護就醫那另外"},{"start":309.758,"end":336.992,"text":"另外那次長您先請回那根據這個《精神衛生法》第52條第一項的規定在這個精神照護機構對於病患擅自離開機構時應該要通知家屬及保護人那病患行蹤不明時應即刻通知地方主管機關的警察機構來協助協詢但是我們就是剛剛講的部分在通報方面似乎是延誤了4個小時才通報"},{"start":337.992,"end":367.07,"text":"那這4個小時就足夠讓這個病患的行蹤難以追查那當時也造成這個基隆附近的這些縣市在學校方面都禁止這個訪客進入了嘛所以這個我想請教部長就是說在這個應急通知應該在多久的時間之內就要通知這第一個問題那第二個問題就是說收容機構和當地的警察機關之間通報的管道是否暢通"},{"start":369.669,"end":391.518,"text":"這發現的話我們是要求是即時通知即時通知即時即時馬上就要通報了都要通報所以沒有時間的限制沒有時間的那個好 那個我們目前的這個管道有沒有暢通跟警察機關目前這是這個是管道是這個通知的話我們是第一時間就會通報那個警方那地檢署也會通"},{"start":394.54,"end":422.528,"text":"跟委員報告目前各家醫院都跟在地的這個警察局其實都有保持聯絡所以就像剛剛部長講的這個應該當下病人不加離開就應該通知在地的警察單位以上可是這個部分我還是強調啦像基隆這個案子他雖然是委外契約的單位醫療機構我們還是要跟他們這個這個告知就是在通報上應該去適時的去檢討啦因為有時候他可能這個"},{"start":424.028,"end":438.163,"text":"主管更換或是怎樣會不會導致說這個病患在脫逃的時候沒有第一時間去通報所以才會衍生這個延誤通報的問題這個部分也請我們這個相關單位應該要重視那再來就是我們"},{"start":439.381,"end":466.889,"text":"這次的這個個案追捕當中有人提出這個監護處分人的部分他公布的照片和實際的這個長相有所差距恐怕會造成難以辨認那法務部這邊我們是不是可以來演你說在這個病患就醫的過程裡面每一個階段是不是有一個這個不定時的拍照的這個動作來存檔那以便不時之需有沒有可能"},{"start":468.145,"end":491.974,"text":"這個是拍照這部分是有會涉及到我們各自就是肖像權的一個問題那這部分我們再來研議是不是可以設計一個可行性的方式因為這個法制上是不是可以有辦法去做到就像委員提到就是每一個時間就給他拍一張那個存檔起來那這部分我們再釋法性我們再來研究"},{"start":493.795,"end":508.007,"text":"我們負責執行的檢察官平時業務已經都非常繁重部長您也是檢察官出身可能有相關的經驗可以分享"},{"start":508.567,"end":531.097,"text":"那依據法務部的資料來看這個每年我們在監護處分執行的個案大概是200名那在保安處分執行法第48條裡面有規定檢察官對於受監護處分之人與指揮執行後至少每個月應該要去視察一次並製作紀錄那我想也是對於個案的這個情況能夠隨時掌握的必要措施"},{"start":531.877,"end":555.392,"text":"但譬如像這個上次的這個基隆案例來看北檢的這個檢察官執行送往這個基隆機構那現在又將這個病患最後送到現在是送到高雄的司法這個精神病院來執行若機構分布在各地會不會讓檢察官需要長途跋涉那在視察上要花費比較多的時間"},{"start":557.393,"end":577.832,"text":"這個問題我們會不會有什麼方式可以來解決或是用一些線上的這個遠距離的方式來處理可以嗎這部分我們再來研究不過我們到目前為止我們是要求就是檢討每月就是要去訪視一次那以後精神病房它是分布在北部南東那精神醫院這部分設置的"},{"start":578.713,"end":578.933,"text":"陳俊宇議員"},{"start":603.624,"end":622.121,"text":"在這個我們司法精神病院方面我想請教部長一下就是我們目前好像有在規劃未來有可能會建置北中南東都有的這個司法精神病房因為現在好像只有在南部有而已嘛已經在收治了對那這個部分"},{"start":622.882,"end":643.918,"text":"比如說未來有可能在東部的哪一個地點有沒有可能這部分我們就不方便沒關係那可不可以讓我知道說我們設置這個司法精神病房的它的設置的這個要件要符合到什麼樣的條件才有可能在那個點來設置有沒有可能"},{"start":646.079,"end":673.088,"text":"這個部分會後再給我一份資料啦看還是在我們私下再討論一下那我也期待說因為各區域的這個司法精神病院建置完成之後能夠妥善因應相關這個監護的需求來讓我們這個相關的病患有一個比較好而且比較方便的一個照顧的地方也能夠期待他們在這個照顧過程裡面他們身體的健康狀況也能夠慢慢的獲得一個一個照顧跟好轉"},{"start":674.479,"end":677.97,"text":"這個部分也請我們法務部跟衛福部好好的去思考這個問題好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331f146e96bb13b0e3b74cb636d3605ada8333bc5d453e1b195c0ae87ae6cfd03fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:34:49 - 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我們請主委 請陳主委委員長 主委好老朋友 記名 那個 漁師是老朋友 漁工還是要要求那個之前齁 那個跟主委報告 之前有我們一直在做的事 我想這個是我一直追蹤蠻重要的事 所以 要讓主委知道一下"},{"start":37.452,"end":64.69,"text":"那就是近年來我們在推動最有利標這個方向不要用低價搶標去破壞那個品質那最有利標呢我想每個人穿衣服啦買房子啦都是用自己的最有利標嘛所以對我們工程來講應該也是用最有利標最好那之前我一直要求工程會就是最有利標的時候"},{"start":66.091,"end":85.66,"text":"如果真的有一些爭議或有一些疑慮或有一些擔心就把政風跟主計麻煩他們辛苦一點跟我們一起來那一來呢我們很清楚我們趕緊政風主計來就是心裡沒有問題二來呢如果你真的沒有問題政風跟主計來也是保護你的一個好的方式"},{"start":86.773,"end":109.149,"text":"所以最近這幾年來我們工程會在工部門的招標正風跟阻劑加入的比例其實都有逐漸在增加那當然穩定了之後如果會減少一點點也無所謂啦那我的意思就是說正風跟阻劑他不是我們的敵人他是保護我們的"},{"start":110.45,"end":134.525,"text":"好 所以這個部分如果工程會繼續來推你可以看到主委我這個數據你可以參考這是這幾年來喔決票的件數其實都在增加當中今年有一點去年有一點減少是因為最低本來是10萬10萬變成15萬所以這個在數量上有少一點事實上也是增加的那我們看他的比例也一直在每一年歷年都在增加當中"},{"start":135.505,"end":145.565,"text":"所以也就是說我們推動國家這個重大的政策做有力標那加入政府跟主席的協助我們的確讓公共工程的品質可以更好"},{"start":146.81,"end":171.489,"text":"所以這個部分讓主委瞭解一下我是希望說特別跟您提醒這個從以前吳宏謀主委的時候我就在推到後來的吳哲成主委那我是覺得這幾年來看起來有成效出來所以我會繼續在追蹤也希望說主委這個政策讓您有個瞭解那也希望說我們工程會的同仁這個好的政策能夠繼續推動下去"},{"start":172.59,"end":196.833,"text":"不用怕鄭豐跟祖記啦鄭豐祖記是我們的好朋友他可以幫我們很多忙好那第二件事情就是之前在缺工的方面我們一直在講說那個我們其實台灣有很多年輕人體力能力都夠但是他可能不太喜歡去當"},{"start":198.51,"end":211.039,"text":"做這個比較粗工,沒有辦法這時穿得漂亮所以他們有答應說比較不要去做比如說你在工地做那個幫忙或是拔鐵的有可能一工差不多兩千至三千一工可以賺七萬至九萬但是他們去餐廳做服務業有可能賺兩萬多"},{"start":227.642,"end":243.604,"text":"但現在年輕人去感恩去賺兩萬塊他可能要去做這個他不想做所以在之前我不知道現在主委可以關心一下你們內部有沒有做這樣子的規劃因為在之前我也要求過就是說我們工程會每年都有金職獎的頒獎"},{"start":245.326,"end":271.52,"text":"有一些項目的改變有更好的點子我們可以加入評審的項目所以我之前在前主委的時代我也跟他們要求說是不是有可能我們來鼓勵讓他做這個基礎工業基礎的營造工人事實上讓他增加他的榮譽感我們來給他頒獎比如說他做了定幫模定了很好我們找一個職人精神的對不對我們來給他頒獎叫做最佳藍模"},{"start":275.377,"end":278.145,"text":"阿比說他白天還在外面打電話在這個領域很突出我們就給他頒獎叫最佳藍鐵"},{"start":283.958,"end":311.896,"text":"這樣 其實 給這個基礎的 無關是正宗沒的 白天的 午餐的 還有這種基礎的考慮我們鼓勵年輕人出來 讓他們有一致之常 讓他們有職人精神 讓他們有一個容易感這樣 其實有可能在我們缺工的問題 可以幫我們解決一些那這個部分 我不知道 我們有沒有人可以簡單的報告目前工程會進度到哪裡"},{"start":313.451,"end":340.711,"text":"謝謝委員指教關於工班職人獎納入這個工程金職獎的部分已經在實施了會整個會我們把整個金職獎的頒授會整體的再來考量來修正除了這個工班職人獎之外包括整個職安在施工過程的職安也都會納入考量這個是已經在"},{"start":341.291,"end":367.782,"text":"我是特地跟主委報告希望能夠再把它規劃得更好把這個職人精神把我們基礎的缺工的問題其實可以多少做一些改善那第三個呢其實昨天我在聽國民黨在提到他們對那個工程國家都很有意見那現在我們工程會來協助做工程國家會目前的狀況主委不知道有沒有了解"},{"start":369.469,"end":384.657,"text":"這是各個領域的工程國家對那國家做的方向是如何?這一部分給委員報告因為如果說到外國去承攬其他國家的工程就組國家隊去承攬"},{"start":387.944,"end":401.658,"text":"韓國的標的事實上都是非常金額非常龐大所以目前我們說能夠組國家隊去承攬的成果事實上還是不多不過這個工程會"},{"start":402.819,"end":428.473,"text":"已經有在努力包括在各地駐點然後尋求商機或其他的這個資訊提供給國內的相關的產商主委這個時間不多我再跟主委強調一下我會繼續追蹤的項目前面兩項之後這一項我會繼續追蹤那你可以看到我們以前的計畫就是說今年度合訂九件拓展計畫補助大概一千多萬其實算是很少"},{"start":429.574,"end":449.672,"text":"那當然就是說我看那個在野黨他們在批評我們所有的國家隊的角度都覺得說你是圖利用那個角度其實看是非常的不好那對我們國家隊的推動其實是不利的那我舉這個例子讓主委參考就是說在文化部當時我在教委會的時候有建議文化部可以成立一個文策院"},{"start":450.907,"end":457.002,"text":"他是一個投資性質不只是補助性質 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主委"},{"start":12.18,"end":26.794,"text":"何委員長主委好首先先恭喜但是呢這個公共工程委員會看起來不大不小但是很重要責任很大比如說剛剛蔡其山委員要您去盤點各地方政府的這個公共工程的檢像發包的一個狀況這個卻看起來是小事好像也不管重要事但是卻是"},{"start":38.004,"end":51.44,"text":"大事因為攸關的每一項公共工程到底能不能順利的推展能不能順利的完工這很重要這很重要那我要跟你談的另外一個更重要的事現在尤其在我們賴清德總統上任之後那左院長說我們是AI這個行動內閣那要帶頭進行探牌"},{"start":58.308,"end":71.645,"text":"所以呢在前一任吳主委的時候我就諮詢過他他也承諾他立場堅定態度說公共工程要淨零碳排這是一定要做的世界趨勢台灣要跟得上主委你認為呢"},{"start":73.972,"end":91.767,"text":"謝謝委員指教的確是近年排放是我們國家2050要達成的目標那這個2050要達成的目標各界相關碳排的措施都要做那公共工程站的碳排大概初步的資料將近9%至10%之多9%至10%"},{"start":95.73,"end":111.199,"text":"所以當然要盡各種努力在所有的環節來進行淨零那主委我特別會提到為什麼公共工程委員剛剛一開始說說大不大說小不小但很重要因為如果我們要做公共工程的淨零碳排那公共工程很多的是"},{"start":113.007,"end":113.368,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":138.36,"end":157.284,"text":"所以我接下來就要問因為上一次吳主委跟我說有我們要做而且我們要帶頭做所以相關的有關鋼筋水泥業者打頭陣公共工程檢探新規明年上路這個是當時候在媒體上吳主委的任內裡面所發布的"},{"start":160.885,"end":179.35,"text":"所以我是要讓新任的我們陳主委知道鋼筋水泥業者打頭陣公共工程檢探新規明年要上路那我現在今年上路的我要跟主委說是什麼今年上路的很抱歉叫做什麼業者自我宣告"},{"start":181.301,"end":199.627,"text":"這第一個你們認為的新規第二個是說我公共工程有一個叫做精子獎所以我有把這個低碳減碳納入這個加分的項目如果你這個分數得得好的話得得高的話那你可以得到這個公共工程精子獎那我就要凸顯兩個問題主委如果我們要帶頭做如果沒有規範那如何能夠逐步做得到"},{"start":207.622,"end":225.896,"text":"因為呢第一個這個叫做業者自我宣告等於沒有強制性也沒有時程表所謂的時程表就是說每一個階段該做到什麼樣的程度那引領產業界引領了我們各項的大大小小的公共工程他的業者呢"},{"start":226.596,"end":255.065,"text":"不管是這個從設計規劃到後來施工我們該如何的根據公共工程委員會的指引逐步的推動分階段的進階的來落實第一個我們現在叫做業者的自我宣告沒有強制性沒有時程沒有任何階段的一個指引公佈這第一個第二個金資獎加分項目你說這個叫加分啊他如果有做好吧這個我勉強說他是鼓勵措施好了"},{"start":256.038,"end":282.075,"text":"但是呢這個鼓勵措施裡面在這個加分項目裡面那客觀的評鑑基準又是什麼因為就我所知你們金子講的這個所謂的這個評審評鑑都是依據你們的專家學者啊專家學者每一次來看的到底他的這個客觀的評鑑基準OK不OK我們公共工程有沒有給予指引或者相關的一個基準"},{"start":284.585,"end":297.424,"text":"沒有看到下面的在搖頭搖手了有沒有沒有不是好好那請主委好好去了解一下細節好我就分這兩項那今我要跟主委講規範"},{"start":300.273,"end":321.613,"text":"前一任的吳主委說這是我上一次的質詢喔前一任的吳主委說好我們的未來要推動強制性的公共工程採購的碳排要規劃要制度化那未來朝向要強制化可是主委你知道嗎現在這是你的最大挑戰了"},{"start":325.56,"end":339.049,"text":"因為本來吳主委跟我講這件事情要無縫接軌給你但是我相信你一點都不知道吳主委說要你現在回去問一下你所有公共工程委員會的幕僚到底有沒有電子絕標系統要新增一個檢探欄位到底有沒有現在沒有現在沒有那呢"},{"start":353.71,"end":370.158,"text":"當時候答應我的吳主委現在走人了業副主任委員哲良也走人了那陳書偉那你在你任上這個公共工程的採購的要納入碳排的這樣子的一個規劃到底要不要"},{"start":373.76,"end":374.261,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":403.2,"end":403.701,"text":"公共設施"},{"start":421.4,"end":423.582,"text":"我現在就要跟你探討這件事情你有講出這樣子的一個概念很好表示你支持"},{"start":440.68,"end":458.009,"text":"但是問題是公共工程委員會到目前為止我沒有看到一個完整的一個規劃從初級終極到進階哪一個階段階段性的第一個要達到什麼樣的目標第二個我們階段性的法規制度的設計或者是如何推動產業"},{"start":459.952,"end":467.237,"text":"若使在各項的大大小小的公共工程裡面我們公共委員會的態度跟現在進行規劃的進度在哪裡第一個我看不到第三個我們的目標既然我們國家已經宣示了但公共工程委員會有沒有短中長期的一個建立我現在跟你講喔雖然我時間不夠了你剛剛講到碳排資料庫碳排資料庫你們到目前為止跟我講五月中四半你知道嗎"},{"start":489.793,"end":505.13,"text":"到現在也許我也不能苛責你但是只有4家登錄而且你們這個資料庫說6月要上路你們現在是說業者自動來登錄就好結果到目前為止只有4家"},{"start":506.459,"end":506.479,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":536.738,"end":539.241,"text":"請記錄下來 向何委員做說明"}]}},{"id":"153215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331eda08ef201fb49a56bfa9387d0b459bd333bc5d453e1b1951b33c046150ad1425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:14:11 - 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"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.4922187500001,"end":558.7790937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.997,"end":29.269,"text":"主席請陳主委請陳主委蔡委員早主委早今天就叫主委這個這幾年因為這個原物料上漲這個人力短缺的問題所以我看這個減向發包的問題是越來越嚴重"},{"start":33.513,"end":53.589,"text":"那以本席臺中來講我看這個新聞報導也報導了嘛原物料上漲市府檢向發包成為常態那這個臺北市啊這個漁果市場啊這個前科市長檢向發包也在議會裡面也被批評"},{"start":55.572,"end":75.511,"text":"剪相發包本席一直覺得如果我們面臨的是原物料波動的當年度也就是說我們已經預算編列好了但是今年這一整年當中原物料大漲但是原物料大漲一定在一個期間內就簡單講說原物料的波動在"},{"start":79.622,"end":106.721,"text":"一年的時間內漲幅到一個滿足的程度接著他就進入了盤整的狀態他不會連續好幾年他都是一路這個噴出啊原物料上漲不可能嘛可是呢我發現這個減項發包啊並不是在原物料噴漲的那一年那一個時間點出現預算年度出現問題而是現在看起來就是越來越嚴重"},{"start":108.496,"end":129.504,"text":"本席長期在幫忙孩子爭取教育相關的設施從校舍、禮堂、操場等等本席為我們台中的孩子在爭取這些事情那我以台中市政府來舉例就好看這個檢像發包的問題有多嚴重"},{"start":131.516,"end":158.882,"text":"早期我們面對檢像發包常常是什麼是整個建築物的主結構完全蓋好那檢什麼檢裡面的客桌椅也就是說整個環境要蓋幾樓都蓋好了連裡面這個學生用的客桌椅啦這個可移動式的這些擺件最後我們再來爭取相關內部設備"},{"start":161.633,"end":182.142,"text":"那現在呢已經改什麼沒有這樣改本席最近去看了一個工程那個我們大甲國中的那個也是我們去爭取大甲國中的案子很簡單大甲國中的案子呢他是一個原來的手球的手球館可是呢政府現在已經沒有手球館所以政府就學校裡面叫活動中心"},{"start":182.93,"end":201.891,"text":"台中市政府依規定活動中心多少學生活動中心的面積就是多大所以呢市政府的教育局他就編列給你這個活動中心的預算可是要蓋手原來學生在大甲國中手球隊非常有名是我們手球的這個這個搖籃"},{"start":204.173,"end":230.68,"text":"結果呢他這個空間就太小他必須要在既有市政府補助的活動中心的範圍把它擴大才能打手球所以呢我們就協調體育署哇這個公文往往來來往往再加上協調會不必整年啦這好不容易跟手球館跟活動中心透過中央體育署國教署台中市教育局合而為一"},{"start":231.567,"end":250.851,"text":"好了本市搞了一年認為這件事已經處理完結果臺中市政府發包他發包完之後學校又來陳情了為什麼因為他只發包活動中心的主結構只起一半什麼叫起一半譬如說沒門發包項目裡面沒門"},{"start":260.282,"end":275.46,"text":"我只好把體育署、國教署、臺中市教育局再找來協調。說阿現在企業要好阿沒問題要怎樣。體育署就回答本席說報告委員我們體育署只補助體育設施沒有再補助門的。"},{"start":278.933,"end":300.486,"text":"﹗"},{"start":302.165,"end":331.197,"text":"我不是罵體育署啦我只是在講說體育署沒有錯啊他在以他的預算科目來講這時你只要做問這哪個體育設施但是他是手球館啊所以呢本時只好再請教育部潘部長出面來協調說好那這間市政府你要出多少中央的體育署跟國教署你要分別出多少這條集在預算科目裡面想可以出我只是舉這個例子給主委聽啦這個就是減相發包的結果"},{"start":332.925,"end":347.295,"text":"臺中市政府的檢像發包我看這個市議會講已經變成了常態啦好我再講一個順天那是什麼現在活動中心也可以檢像發包到什麼程度?四面圍牆蓋起來沒有屋頂這樣也可以發包對不起"},{"start":352.659,"end":353.78,"text":"發言委員：陳金德列席報告"},{"start":382.912,"end":412.618,"text":"他把樓層要蓋八樓的其中減項八包減掉幾項之後樓層讓他下降這是定案嗎?不是定案未來蓋好之後他可能要再蓋起來你不能不蓋啊在監督上面就會有問題啦就是說以後呢他先把一根柱子蓋好了你不給他補柱你不給他補柱他就變成蚊子管嘛變成蚊子柱子"},{"start":413.387,"end":416.55,"text":"主委本席也做了一個臨時提案希望工程會好好地來管理你的看法呢"},{"start":444.956,"end":458.527,"text":"謝謝蔡委員的確是原物料的調整有物調的機制那也可以透過計畫修正的方式來解決那麼比較不鼓勵透過檢像發包來處理"},{"start":461.149,"end":488.083,"text":"那檢向發包機關他仍然有核定者有核定的需要核定決定這樣檢向發包的機制那如果是檢向發包把你原來的功能已經不在了那個已經是要透過修正計畫採取的不是檢向了所以我們非常佩服蔡委員的這個高見那我們會全力來改善這樣的一個整個在其他機關發包過程中所產生的問題"},{"start":488.983,"end":517.075,"text":"OK 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這要特別請你到三天了這因為畢竟我們也是希望我們所有的工程好不容易要到經費能夠讓工程能夠順利的發包順利的這天順利來完工了那另外我們除了工程這個屏東的工程營養之外我想包含我們現在目前很多的公務機關還有民間的一些工程都碰到工程缺工的問題那之前一直有提到所謂印度移工要來彌補這個勞力缺口的這個"},{"start":231.403,"end":246.715,"text":"國家中大建設尤其是公共工程那麼他的移工的引進當然主管機關是勞動部不過針對個案那麼他如果這個有請求希望移工的話那麼工程會會協助來"},{"start":248.757,"end":249.277,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":273.066,"end":274.166,"text":"徐副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":302.218,"end":325.485,"text":"規劃上面是不是有很大的一個衝擊面?謝謝委員。據我所了解,碳費的開徵還在延逸。原本計畫是從明年度後年開始來申報。徵收對象大概是比較大戶,排放大戶。比方說電力業者、石化業者、燃煤或燃油。"},{"start":326.305,"end":326.505,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":354.991,"end":355.371,"text":"徐富癸．"},{"start":371.07,"end":395.243,"text":"主委那最後一個問題我想請教就是因為課徵碳稅除了一個這個問題之外還有一個就是要我們要了解說一個碳排放的一個過程那目前我們工程會有協助重大工程進行所謂一個碳盤查的一個作為但是大家這樣想我們都要想辦法那目前我們國內的這個技術還不夠成熟那工程會這部分是不是有原因要怎麼樣來降低成本"},{"start":396.941,"end":414.2,"text":"謝謝委員那麼報載的這部分我還在了解當中那麼這個還不是確定的執行的還沒做執行的確定我會進一步來了解那麼做相關的討論跟調整之後會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":415.534,"end":436.914,"text":"謝謝主委我想主委也是新官上任那面對未來我們新內閣跟這個立法院的這個互動關係你會比較辛苦的啦我想工程會也肩負我們行政部門很重要的一個部會的一個角色尤其我們未來很多的一些重大建設跟工程會都息息相關我想先祝你好及團隊好大家做好來拍拚謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331db21c865c780fdf8db3ca66b34e87331333bc5d453e1b195c20b7cb045a4d1385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:24:13 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譬如說12分鐘例如在這個基地台停留15分鐘以上標示 例如來參加這個活動他們是這樣控制的所以民進黨在轉移焦點 他說我沒有啊 這新北市在辦活動也有"},{"start":296.59,"end":309.374,"text":"新北市市,我們辦大型的活動,其實是說國家的經費是利用這樣,在覺得說有很多人,統計人數,他這不是,他這活動已經針對你手機了,我同時是經費的手機了,不是我個人的名字了,所以說,喔,這手機現在有一個80歲的老人在這裡,不是,那是我媽媽的名字,喔,南省、陸省幾歲?"},{"start":326.806,"end":331.028,"text":"這是國安單位嚴重概念競證書原本就保有這個作業但是是不是可以調到這樣我們不知道"},{"start":341.653,"end":356.198,"text":"所以 立法院在最後 避到這種大數據的分拆之後 又在民調裡面 過程裡面 有很多黑暗的東西這是現在的東京 聖殿下 立總統 新手機械如果今天你的民進黨的政策會 敢這樣大肆的 把這些東西公佈出來不然你不覺得台灣的前途堪憂嗎"},{"start":371.155,"end":374.718,"text":"不是說這有合法沒合法的,這是絕對沒合法的!絕對沒合法!尤其,經濟術應該很清楚,我們的立法院用這套系統,當機時的平時局,我們有一個歐盛局長姓歐,"},{"start":398.84,"end":401.422,"text":"不要理會國安黨 這個是個手在叛讀這裡的訴苦 這個是個手但是每一張大型的活動公務人員的手機啊 有進來停留15分鐘以上 停留30分鐘以上停留45分鐘以上 都一清理車他可以對你做整體監控所以這是一個很嚴肅的課題"},{"start":428.1,"end":433.724,"text":"所以部長我要跟你講的就是關於這種問題你不能說有也好沒也好,要很嚴肅,有機會總統問你的時候你要告訴他你要說謝龍介在說你過去心事有機害,來補考人家可以講個這個數字"},{"start":450.697,"end":463.22,"text":"你會記得嗎?我之前在媒體在講的時候在分架的時候,很多人跟我說不可能啦,怎麼會有這個事情一直到我們疫情大爆發,芒果一般發出60萬桶的檢訊,你會記得嗎?那個時候人家跟我說啊!龍介你說得對,本來因為我們看到有的事情,我們不便在台面上說嘛為什麼你什麼人經過芒果那四口冷凍,那60萬桶的檢訊怎麼發出來?"},{"start":482.189,"end":489.133,"text":"這所有本來就都在的,國安單位要拿誰是可以拿,但是你不應該拿出來做政治用途啊!這非常惡質啊!經理你請回答,不然我頂著來,頂著拜,因為你沒有來啊!我有探討這個..."},{"start":505.809,"end":518.18,"text":"詐騙匯款的問題,金管匯跟你們出席,那天不是他們出席啦,有來,我不知道金管匯跟你們匯董去演繹,就是說我們匯款處理,要有一個冷靜期啦"},{"start":524.625,"end":550.367,"text":"有的人給我們便宜大家開始要花錢都很謹慎甚至人家扣錢、親人扣錢、警察扣錢你不要啦單錢花掉了兩百萬花出來他才開始想說讓我這樣我問我女兒有沒有,問我女兒有沒有問了她知道你這可能給我們便宜所以我在提出說花款了有一個兩點鐘左右或者是多久的時間"},{"start":552.862,"end":559.64,"text":"有一個冷靜期 啊金管委說要回動令 大家重新來這裡做一個報告 敢不敢跟你們回憶討論啊"},{"start":562.293,"end":576.399,"text":"這個委員提的這個意見齁這個是屬於金管會主政的業務那這部分我們是主...但是當局犯罪時你如果因為你要提供一些辦案的訴苦跟他要定幾點鐘或是多少金額啊不要去封他就金融特殊這樣情形下這個法不可以完美而且還可以檢焦詐騙的案件啊"},{"start":587.332,"end":593.648,"text":"因為這牽扯到那個金融的秩序的一個問題我們還是尊重金管會的一個我知啦你愛提就是說"},{"start":597.403,"end":597.823,"text":"他有說要重新來"},{"start":626.55,"end":637.816,"text":"報告 接您 要延期嘛 我現在問他講合理延期啊目前還要在 還沒有不是啦 這您在主動應該是前 是因為這部分我告訴你 沒錯 就是說"},{"start":641.943,"end":651.63,"text":"針對犯罪的形態及內容及模式 他們比較不知道但是針對金融及最佳的特殊維護 他們比較知道 我們比較不知道所以這就是看保護的 你們一定要磨合了"},{"start":659.515,"end":668.839,"text":"來到本會來重申說這很重要因為我現在這樣提出之後 各方的意見都覺得這個會款處理 後面有一個兩小時、三小時或是一小時的認證期對方那個會期那個帳戶比較可以去捏錢這樣因為很多人是集會了就換會了 比較保安不會付啊"},{"start":683.632,"end":691.928,"text":"我講這樣 意思是你聽得懂嗎不清楚這個冷靜期這部分我們會跟警方 反正說委員的寶貴意見這部分我們拜託你邀議一下是好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13314f26beff6d5bbdc9d0e137800dc086ea333bc5d453e1b1950f816805a879aa765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:32:20 - 10:41:34","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":554,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T10:41:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T10:32:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時32分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部林次長，還有核安會陳主委。"],["主席：是，請主委和次長，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：兩位早安。"],["陳主任委員東陽：郭委員早。"],["林次長全能：委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：臺灣使用核電，碰到的最大困境應該是地震頻傳，再來就是核廢料處理的問題，這應該是目前我們碰到的最大狀況。本席再次請教次長，本席的孩子也知道，有時候停電或跳電並不是缺電的問題，其實還有很多外部和內部的問題，對不對？並不是因為臺灣缺電。"],["林次長全能：是，跳電不一定是缺電的緣故。"],["郭委員昱晴：以現行的法規來看，核電廠要延役必須經過很嚴密的計畫，包含我們知道的，如果要延役，必須在執照屆期之前的5到15年就要提出申請。我們知道目前在國內，不管是核一廠或者是核二廠，例如核一廠的部分，其實一些重要設備已經慢慢移除，所以重啟幾乎是不可能，延役更不用說了。在核二廠的部分，其實核廢料的問題依舊存在，就算某些立委有執念想要重啟，是不是也無法運轉？核二的部分。"],["林次長全能：這個法規面已經很明確的規範，它不可能再重啟運作。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外核三的部分，1號機組是今年7月底，2號機組是明年5月中，它們就確定除役；當然，針對這個部分，還是有人想要再做一些事，不管是全世界的創舉，例如想要利用修法，希望讓核三繼續工作、延役。關於這個部分，本席想要問的就是，核一，剛才已經說了，它不會再有重建、延役的問題。核二，目前就算要重啟，還要經過整體的評估，這個評估大概要多久？還有包含本席剛才問的，核三如果真的要延役的話，法律和安全上會面臨什麼樣的問題？"],["林次長全能：這部分在法規面有很完備的相關延役規定，目前核三廠不管是1號機或是2號機，都已經過了延役的申請時間，依照法規，它不可能再進行所謂的延役。"],["郭委員昱晴：那核三呢？"],["林次長全能：我剛才說的是核三廠的1號機、2號機。"],["郭委員昱晴：OK。好，如果不延役，如果沒辦法重啟，未來臺灣的用電會不會受到影響？大部分的人應該都會把焦點放在這一塊，因為這和他們切身相關。"],["林次長全能：是。經濟部就是要做到穩定供電，我們會預估詳細的需求，做好供給的提供。我剛才提到，我們已經就核三廠1號機或2號機停止運轉後所需要的供電做好準備，包括天然氣電廠，包括再生能源的太陽光電或者離岸風電，今年或明年都會成長、增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：已經有做過比較基礎的數據評估嗎？"],["林次長全能：是，我們有很詳細的評估和規劃。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以目前就算是核三廠，也不會有所謂的延役問題，而且就算不延役，臺灣也沒有缺電的問題，可以這樣說嗎？"],["林次長全能：這個是我們努力要做到的事情。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。接下來本席想要問的，就是所謂的核融合基礎研究。所謂的聚變能研究，其實分兩個不同的部分，其中一個趨勢是磁局限融合，另外一個是慣性局限融合，臺灣比較傾向的，目前正在專心研究的部分，其實就是磁局限融合，這個部分法國也在做，他們的計畫大概進行了30年，目前進度稍微落後。這樣對嗎？"],["林次長全能：關於這個部分，抱歉，委員，我沒有很深入的了解，可不可以請台電回答？"],["郭委員昱晴：可以，沒問題。"],["許副總經理永輝：主要是因為經費的問題啦！大概是因為跨國的關係。這個計畫的確是30年前發起的，當時大概只有7個國家，我記得現在已經擴充到17個國家。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這是比較主流的計畫嘛！對不對？應該這麼說。"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來說是國際上比較主流的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。但是慣性局限融合的部分，其實美國在2022年的年底，它的Q值已經首次大於1，也就是說這個部分提前達標了，為什麼我們還是比較堅持做所謂的磁局限融合？我們比較聚焦在這個部分。"],["許副總經理永輝：基本上前面那一個，就是Tokamak機型，現在是國際的主流，底下那個是Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory，是在加州舊金山的一個國家實驗室，這個實驗室達到所謂的淨值部分，我記得大概只有0.1秒左右，所以它還……"],["郭委員昱晴：還不穩定。"],["許副總經理永輝：未來如果運用在發電上，還是有發電效率的損失。所以就這一塊來說，目前在國際上比較不是主流，因為它是用脈衝式的對撞去做核融合的狀態。"],["郭委員昱晴：在磁局限的融合部分，我們的計畫大概什麼時候可以達到？"],["許副總經理永輝：目前就我所知，國原院有一個計畫。"],["郭委員昱晴：什麼樣的計畫？這個部分請主委回答一下。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分其實是國科會補助的整合型計畫，有5個子計畫，兩年一期，總共有4年。它其實算是一個基礎研究，我們1年投入3,500萬元，兩年一期，後面還有第二期。國際的ITER，或者法國的團隊、跨國的團隊，這些都是非常前沿的研究，我們這個計畫只是研究用，是一個基礎研究，而且即便是國際上前沿的團隊，離實際商轉運作還有很大的一段距離。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。接下來本席要問一下，就是近年來關於核融合的技術發展，我們一直朝這個方面努力，2024年用核融合的方式發電，目前還是沒有辦法達到，對不對？但是我們從新聞報導發現一間比較特殊的公司，本席想要提出來，這個部分不曉得主委是否知道，他們好像也不是做剛剛我們介紹過的核融合兩個不同研究方向，可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合，而且還要把它商業化。這個部分我們有沒有去觀察或是有沒有去關切？到底這間公司所說的核融合的技巧、核融合的技術是真的如他們所說的這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我大概有一些了解，我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過，他其實是前國科會主委。這個部分，其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下，我的理解是這個技術門檻很高，如果它有突破性，那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對。我想後續還可以再觀察一下。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們也很擔心他們的宣傳其實有點擴大了，他說Q值可以穩定大於1，而且長達數小時，但他不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的趨勢，所以我想可能還是要懇切的觀察，因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資。說穿了，我們講白話一點，如果他廣告不實，其實我們也很擔心可能跟詐騙有關，還是要請核安會做深入的了解，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，了解，謝謝，沒問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":14.172218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.41221875,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.53034375,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.078468750000003,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.57971875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.73784375,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.62284375,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.275968750000004,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.62159375,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.52971875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.40721875000001,"end":109.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.26284375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.92471875,"end":141.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.67534375,"end":143.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.94096875,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.29096875000002,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.50159375,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.90846875,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.88909375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.71596875,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.50034375,"end":186.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.55034375000002,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.48096875000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.08409375000002,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.53096875000003,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.43346875,"end":241.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.56721875000002,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.21221875,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.64096875,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.82596875,"end":287.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.11221875,"end":292.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.71096875,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.39846875,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.41846875000005,"end":305.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.57846875,"end":305.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.45159375000003,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.91284375000004,"end":361.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.81846875,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.76346875,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.11721875,"end":370.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.84659375,"end":370.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.68596875000003,"end":375.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.20471875000004,"end":373.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.23846875000004,"end":419.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.75846875,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.67721875,"end":510.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.00159375000004,"end":485.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.86596875000004,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.78659375,"end":513.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.87096875000003,"end":511.36034375},{"sp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是 我們有很詳細的一個評估跟規劃所以目前就算我們的核三其實我們也不會有所謂的這個延役的這個問題那就算不延役台灣其實沒有缺電的問題可以這樣說嗎?這個是我們努力在做到的一個事情"},{"start":244.244,"end":264.313,"text":"好那接下來我想要問的就是所謂的核融合技術方面的研究了因為其實我們有提到所謂的這個劇變的那個研究其實分兩個不同的部分包含其實另外一個趨勢其中的一個趨勢是這個磁局線融合那另外一個是慣性局線融合那我們台灣其實是"},{"start":264.953,"end":266.754,"text":"這部分抱歉我沒有很深入的了解我可不可以請台電來回答"},{"start":290.675,"end":302.714,"text":"主要是因為它經費的問題因為這個大概跨國最早這個計畫沒錯30年前發起的當時大概有7個國家現在我記得已經擴充到17個國家所以這個是比較主流的一個計畫嗎目前來講是國際比較主流的"},{"start":305.618,"end":330.527,"text":"但是這個慣性局限融合的部分其實美國在2022年的年底它的Q值已經首次大於1也就是說它在這個部分它是提前先達標了那為什麼我們還是比較堅持在所謂的這個次局限融合這個部分我們比較聚焦在這個基本上前面那一個有關於所謂的所謂的托克馬克那個機型來講現在是國際的主流"},{"start":333.608,"end":360.872,"text":"底下那個是在加州的舊金山的一個國家實驗室這個實驗室因為可是它達到所謂的淨值的部分大概我記得大概只有0.1秒左右所以它還未來如果在發電上還有發電效率的損失所以這一塊來講目前在國際上比較傾向於不是一個主流因為它是用脈衝式的這種對撞去做一個核融合的"},{"start":361.292,"end":388.188,"text":"我們在這個持續線的融合的部分我們的計畫大概是什麼時候可以達到目前來講就我知道大概國研院這裡會有一個計畫在走什麼樣的計畫在走這個部分其實是一個國科會補助的一個整合型計畫那麼有五個子計畫那兩年一起總共有四年那麼他其實是算是一個基礎研究"},{"start":389.088,"end":392.872,"text":"國際的ITER、法國的團隊、跨國的團隊其實是非常前沿我想我們這個只是一個"},{"start":409.269,"end":419.514,"text":"研究用基礎研究的什麼離實際運作即便國際上前沿的團隊離實際商轉運作都還有很大的一段距離"},{"start":421.968,"end":447.254,"text":"接下來我要問一下就是近年來其實關於所謂的核融合的這個技術其實我們都一直朝這個方面去努力了那2024年是不是有可能這個核融合它也有可能目前是沒有辦法達到的對不對但是我們從新聞報導當中其實發現了有一間比較特殊的公司在這裡我想要提出來我想這個部分"},{"start":447.634,"end":470.921,"text":"我不曉得就是我們這個主委這邊有沒有概括性的知道就是說他們好像也不是做這兩塊剛剛我們介紹過的這個核融合的這兩個不同的研究方向可是他們在大篇幅的媒體報導當中說他們已經開始核融合而且還要把它所謂的商業化那這個部分"},{"start":471.801,"end":480.619,"text":"我們有沒有去觀察或者我們有沒有去關切到底這間公司他所說的這個核融核的技巧核融核的這個技術是真的如他所說的是這樣嗎"},{"start":481.944,"end":509.232,"text":"我想這個部分我大概有一些了解那麼我跟其中一位創辦人也有聊過那麼他其實是前國科委主委那麼這個部分其實我們後續還可以再觀察一下那麼我的理解是這個技術門檻很高那麼如果他有一個很突破性那麼在國際上應該是一個很大的新聞才對"},{"start":511.191,"end":533.666,"text":"我想後續還可以再觀察一下因為其實我們也很擔心他的宣傳其實有點擴大了就是說他講說他的Q值可以穩定大於1而且長達數小時但他剛剛不是用剛剛所講的那兩個不同的一個趨勢所以這個部分我想可能還是要懇切的觀察因為我知道這間公司好像還在募資"},{"start":534.787,"end":534.927,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}